# MY True HP Aero Plug&Play Pods



## tree farmer (Oct 11, 2009)

Finally finished my HP Aero and thought id show it here since this is one of the few sites that seems to have any interest in these systems. It runs at 75-90 psi using a diaphram pump,accumulator tank and selenoid valve to control the mist cycle. Ive run 4 systems similar to these pods but with lower pressures before (40-60psi) but wanted to try the 50 micron barrier to see what type of results can be had. I built it for large ladies because thats what i like to dance with. Will see in a couple months what she can do. Let me know what you think or if you have any questions. Ill try to load pics but if they dont show up be patient im not familiar with this site process.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 11, 2009)

why cant i see this post


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 11, 2009)

Wow, and people on other forums thought I was crazy for recommending Iwaki RZ pressure biased magnetic pumps. I like your system and your way of thinking. I simply use IWAKI 40 psi pumps for the main aero pipes with a timed solenoid that dumped water back straight to the reservoir 50% of the time and pressurized the standard 50 psi misters 50% of the time. I use the same set up with 25 psi pumps for clone pipe misters and early veg growth pipe misters. I believe the work much better than the typical flow biased low-pressure pumps most aero growers seem to use. They just seem to throw out a heavy drizzle like spray rather than a mist. I have some Masterflex high-pressure diaphragm pumps but they are not continuous duty and O had not thought of using a pressure tank and pressure switch etc.

So as I understand your system you are running a diaphragm pump to pressurize a pressure tank with nutrient water to an excess of 100 psi, and using a pressure switch so the pump is not running continuous. You are then drawing water from the pressure tank through a pressure reducer valve and using a repeat cycle timer controlling a solenoid valve that then supplies 75 to 90 psi nutrient water to your misters. As you are only using a few misters say 12 total that is at most probably around 120 gallons per hour if running continuous. As you are suing a timer then I assume your misters are not supplied nutrients continuously. What are you using for a diaphragm pump? What is the &#8220;Single Channel Mist Controller&#8221; shown in the photo? I have never seen such a controller. Is that a duty cycle timer for a solenoid so that each system has its own potential cycle but shares the same nutrients/pressure tank and pump?

How much metal is in your system nutrient contact areas? Were you actually able to buy a pressure control switch for the pump and pressure reducer valve without metal contact surfaces? If so from who (brand names).

I really am intrigued by the thought of better misting in my aero tubes and potential lower wattage needs of a pressure tank system.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 11, 2009)

fatman7574 alot of people will tell you your crazy when dealing with this but you have to do your own thing or your just a follower. Yes the pump is a shurflow 8000 series 150psi demand pump that pressures the accumulator tank to 95 psi(or whatever i want it to up to 125psi max) the pressure is held back by the selenoid valve and is released when the timer(single channel mister you refered to) releases it every 2 minutes for 2 seconds (or whatever i set it for) its just basically a repeat cycle timer. 

Everything is either poly(plastic or stainless steel) except for a very small part of the pressure switch which has minimual contact with the solution. the pump only runs for 48 seconds every 15 minutes to recharge the pressure tank when it falls below 75psi. there are 4 misting nozzels in every pod and they use .08oz per second.

i have run systems almost exactly like this except with 40-60psi and larger pressure tanks before and the performance can really be outstanding so im hoping this one will outperform those.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 11, 2009)

Every thing makes since but the flow volumes. 0.08 ounces per second is only a flow if continous of 2.25 gallons per hour. All the standard misters I have are like 25 gallons per hour at 50 psi. Where do you get your low flow misters. I have seen some that are supposed to be available in out puts of 0.8 to 2 gph per hour but they appear to be about 3/4 inch in diamter where I would put them in the pipes. It would save on all the grommets but they would still ned to be used with the 1/4 inch spagetti tubes. Have you actually been able to get away with as little as a few seconds every two minutes? Considering I am now running at least three 90 watt nutrient pumps 24 hours per day per room an alternative would sure be nice. And less flow means less btu of nutrient cooling needed. The heads I have found are for 80 to 100 micron droplet size. I have not seen any other adds that even list the droplet micron sizes. http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=39_67&sort=2a&page=1


----------



## smppro (Oct 11, 2009)

This site has interest in those systems? Every once in a while somebody will talk about HP aero but it never seems to get anywhere,lots of LP aero, your system looks nice will def watch this. Do you have any pics or numbers on your last crops with the lower psi, are the hp sero systems worth it? or do you just like the fuzzy roots


----------



## morrisgreenberg (Oct 12, 2009)

fuzzy roots are the shit, but most of us barely got out of high school! i hate talkin aero when someone comes out and says "you want real aero? google tag!" that looks like a highly complex system but i cant even fathom the production that will give considering running FAG(fake aero gro) with amaxing results


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 12, 2009)

Fatman 
http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3 i have used these nozzels with my LP 40-60psi with good results. with good filter (200mesh never clogged) they are 60-80 micron and they will screw right into hose. the misters i have now will only work with 80-100psi and they have male pipe threads 1/8"


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 12, 2009)

smppro
no pics cause havent run anything in quit awhile. but when i did 7 pods similar to these with 40-60 psi they would go from 14" to 6 feet tall and 5-6 ft around in 8 week


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 12, 2009)

morrisgreenberg
Hell i love LP aero just want to push the edge and see what happens


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 12, 2009)

Hi Tree Farmer
Good to see another pump/accumulator solenoid aeroponic setup..its the only way to go imho. 
Seeing your pump running times, i guess your accumulator tank has a fairly small capacity. You can add extra tanks in parallel. to extend the time the pump is off. 
Another suggestion is to use a 1 micron bag filter on the return to keep the debris out of the res, 200 mesh (75micron) allow much bigger particles through which combine and block stuff up 

edit: i reckon your accumulator maybe somewhere around 6gal, the drawdown time from 90psi to 75psi would be about right with a 2 second/2 minute misting cycle running 16 nozzles. I enjoy the math side 

Either way its a very tidy and well finished setup


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 12, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Tree Farmer
> Good to see another pump/accumulator solenoid aeroponic setup..its the only way to go imho.
> Seeing your pump running times, i guess your accumulator tank has a fairly small capacity. You can add extra tanks in parallel. to extend the time the pump is off.
> Another suggestion is to use a 1 micron bag filter on the return to keep the debris out of the res, 200 mesh (75micron) allow much bigger particles through which combine and block stuff up


 glad to see you stopped by. I always enjoyed your posts very informative and sometimes a little funny. Yes the tank is small because i wanted it to be. I have run large tanks 40 gallon before but for this app i needed everything to be modular and able to be moved easily and large tanks arent easy to do that with. this whole setup has john guest quick connect fittings and everything is on wheels with flexible hosing. also ive noticed that ive had some problems when the solution would sit for hours in the acc tank. Everything seemed to just kind of cake up on all the plumbing and i could never seem to flush it all out. Maybe it just was the PVC im not sure. Another reason its smaller is because it is very hard to find any large acc tanks that can handle the 100psi. everything in this system has a pressure rating of at least 125psi . Ive run it up to 110 and it kind of sounds like you unleashed hell when the selenoid opens.

As far as the filter goes the 200 mesh is what i used on the 40-60psi system.In this system i would not dream of only using the 200 mesh this has a 22 micron after the tank and a 1 micron absolute sediment after the pump output. I know it should really be the other way around but i couldnt find a filter housing with a small micron filter that could take the constant pressure after the tank.

Where can you get a 1 micron bag filter or how can one be made because i sure would add one if i knew where to get one. i just have never seen one.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 12, 2009)

I have to say its refreshing to see i`m not alone in the quest of doing something different 
I get my bag filters from a local place that supplies veg oil/biodiesel type stuff, cheap and washable. You shouldnt have any trouble finding them. 
I`m not sure about the caking issue, pvc should be fine, do you use RO water? 
Its a bind that the larger the tank capacity, the lower the maximum working pressure. One the flipside, if you have multiple small tanks making up the capacity.. a bladder going south in one won`t affect much  

I`m pretty sure you`ll have this covered but i`ll say it anyway lol, its vital to fit a pressure relief valve in the system. If the pressure switch fails closed..the accumulator can become a bomb and ruin your day.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 12, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I have to say its refreshing to see i`m not alone in the quest of doing something different
> I get my bag filters from a local place that supplies veg oil/biodiesel type stuff, cheap and washable. You shouldnt have any trouble finding them.
> I`m not sure about the caking issue, pvc should be fine, do you use RO water?
> Its a bind that the larger the tank capacity, the lower the maximum working pressure. One the flipside, if you have multiple small tanks making up the capacity.. a bladder going south in one won`t affect much
> ...


Ill check around some of those types of stores for one. another tank in line would decrease the pump times but i feel 1 minute every 15 will work for now especially since i have in the past just cycled these pumps without tanks for months on end with only one failure.

You know Ive had a hard time finding an adjustable pressure relief valve that would open around 110psi. I dont want to use brass either. What i have done for the time being is placed another pressure switch in the line and set it for 110psi cutout. i then hooked it up to a relay so that when the switch opens at 110psi the relay will cut power to the pump off and open the selenoid valve releasing the pressure. so the pressure switch that controls the pump cuts out at 95psi and if that should fail closed then the second pressure switch will pick up when the pressure hits 110psi and stop the pump and dump the line thru the selenoid. I also have a small piercing alarm that trips if the relay cuts the power to the pump. hope that makes sense. it works cause i tryed it. im still going to fit a valve when i find the right one and then ill use the second pressure switch to trigger a backup 8000 series 239 12 volt dc pump in case the power fails or the 8000 -639 thats in there quits. 

i have used 12 volt dc shurflows on a car battery with a smart charger as the main pump before for months just cycling it 30 sec on 4 minutes off for some veg time in a small system with no problems ,so i figure it would make a good back up.

Dont you just love relays you can do almost anything with them once you understand them. 

Maybe you can tell me why the pressure switch will momentarly close every time the selenoid opens unless i keep the flow restricter on the selenoid valve almost closed. Im assuming its because the pressure drop in the line is to much when the valve opens because the valve is 3/4" and the line in and out is 1/2". I never had that happen on lower pressure systems but i always had larger than 1/2" lines coming out of the selenoid valves. the reason i used the larger valve in the first place was i thought if i used a 1/2 inch out to 4 1/4 inch lines i might not get enough flow. The misters work fine with the restricter tightened down but it somewhat puzzels me. whats your thoughts.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 13, 2009)

Sounds like you built a better mousetrap with your pressure relief solution 
It should work ok as the chances of both pressure switches failing at the same time is pretty remote  Finding an adjustable stainless PRV at the right money won`t be too easy, a fixed 8bar PRV (~118psi) might be easier to locate.

I`d say the pressure switch bounce is probably due to the 15psi differential on the switch. Depending on the pipe run and whether you use anti drain valves on the nozzles.. the tank will have to pressurize the pipework from the solenoid to the nozzles while they are running. 
It`ll only takes a split second to pressurize everything but it may be enough to cause the pressure to dip and bounce the switch. Tightening down the solenoid restricts the flow which makes the pressure dip shallower (<15psi) but with a slightly longer duration..only a few milliseconds. 

The type of pipe can be a factor too, a flexible (non rigid) line expands under high pressure and acts like a mini accumulator at the start and end of each misting pulse..30ft of garden hose expands enough to carry on misting for a good 30 seconds after the solenoid closes with just 5bar mains water pressure.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 13, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Sounds like you built a better mousetrap with your pressure relief solution
> It should work ok as the chances of both pressure switches failing at the same time is pretty remote  Finding an adjustable stainless PRV at the right money won`t be too easy, a fixed 8bar PRV (~118psi) might be easier to locate.
> 
> I`d say the pressure switch bounce is probably due to the 15psi differential on the switch. Depending on the pipe run and whether you use anti drain valves on the nozzles.. the tank will have to pressurize the pipework from the solenoid to the nozzles while they are running.
> ...


After i thought about it for awhile i deceided to not have the relay with the second pressure switch pop the selenoid valve but have it just cut the power to the pump. Becasuse when the selenoid dumps the pressure will continue to fall until the cuton pressure of the second pressure switch restores power to the first pressure switch (which in a failed closed situation will reenergize the pump and the system will just cycle between the cuton and cutoff settings of the second pressure switch. the misting would continue in this situation but at a constant misting cycle. When i dont open the selenoid when cuting the power to the pump the system will continue to just misting cycles normally but now at the second pressure switch settings. I could make it so that when the power is cut to the pump in a failed closed pressure switch the power would not come back on to the pump unless i reset it but i dont like this option over the misting cycle just continuing as normal only at the higher pressure setting off the second pressure switch. And this way in a failed pressure switch open situation the second switch would continue running the system as normal. 

Now if the second pressure switch fails closed after the first one{which as you said is very unlikely} the pump would continue to pump but to be honest with you even though it is a 150 psi pump it really has to stuggle just to get the last 10 psi from 100-110psi so i doudt if it could pressure the tank pass the 125psi max pressure between the selenoid opening every 2 minutes. more than likely the pump would just continue pumping until the thermal case overload tripped it out at 205 degrees. this pump also has an external adjustable bypass valve that i keep almost closed because if i open it to much the pump wont pump up as quickly so the pump set the way it is probably cant get past 115psi and that would be a stuggle for it. If it would blow i m sure i wouldnt be in the room because when im there i would notice the longer run time on the pump as a person gets real use to these things after being around them running for awhile . plus the alarm that sounds when the first switch fails can wake the dead.

Ive noticed that after the mist cycle there is very little misting that continues for more than a second or two. these are bio nozzels. i might try some tefon ones with the antidrip feature as some of the bio ones right out of the bag dont seem to mist as well as others right out of the bag. I will probably replace the nozzels every few weeks anyway as i use to do that on my 40-60psi rigs although these are somewhat more expense to do that with.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 13, 2009)

Thats a good solution and it keeps the system up and running until you get a replacement switch. Having said that, a good quality external PS could run without a hitch for years, unlike the cheap spring/microswitch type fitted to most demand pumps 
There`s not much of a selection of nozzles to choose from where i am. I tested everything i could find before settling on netafim coolnets (5LPH). They use a seperate 3/8" whitworth threaded base which screws into the line, the 4bar adv pushfits into the base and the nozzle assembly pushfits into the adv. Replacing a single nozzle or the entire assembly only takes a few seconds.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 13, 2009)

eBay has scads of 1 micron bags. [urlhttp://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m38.l1313&_nkw=1+micron+filter+bag&_sacat=See-All-Categories][/url]

Plastomatic makes nice valves with no metal wetted surfaces but even a 1/2" diaphragm type relief valves starts at $155. http://www.alscoplastics.com/product_p/0316-005-b.htm[

By my calculations for my smallest system to go to a higher pressure with accumalator tanks I would need three pumps and three tanks as I would need to supply 54 misters. I am not sure I am that displeased with the mid pressure (25 psi) system to put out the money for three sets of valves. There are some cheap reducer valves that are new surplus (not Plastomatic and only 1/4"but also only $20 or less) but no surplus all plastic pressure relief valves that I have seen. The pump costs and tank costs are not that bad. I think I would use 19 gallon tanks, with SU-8000 pumps (812-28. Even then with a minimum of 18 misters per tank/pump the duty cycle would probably still be around 2 to 3% at 50 psi mister pressure as the pump is just 1.3 gallons per minute free flowing. The tanks will alledgedly safely handle 100 psi, so possibly 75 psi might be a fure pressure used. Perhaps your using a different pump? I think even the smallest misters might be over kill even as the spacing is only 6 inches as it is a small 5" long six tube SOG set up. I think I would have to do an initail single pump/tank set up to see what the results will be with that high of pressure in small 4" tubes. Would you call the force of the droplets extreme or more of a mist/fog.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 14, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Thats a good solution and it keeps the system up and running until you get a replacement switch. Having said that, a good quality external PS could run without a hitch for years, unlike the cheap spring/microswitch type fitted to most demand pumps
> There`s not much of a selection of nozzles to choose from where i am. I tested everything i could find before settling on netafim coolnets (5LPH). They use a seperate 3/8" whitworth threaded base which screws into the line, the 4bar adv pushfits into the base and the nozzle assembly pushfits into the adv. Replacing a single nozzle or the entire assembly only takes a few seconds.


Thats what i like about these john guest fittings also everything can just be changed in a moments notice without doing anything except pushing the collar back and sliding the flexible tubing out. i originally built this with schedule 40pvc and glued all the joints with great care but when i pressured it up it eventually started to leak. then i would fix that leak and then another joint would start weeping. I got so tired of it that i decieded to go with the quick connect fittings after realizing how well they had performed on my RO system. Now to change something around in the system or change something out only takes a second. the nozzels are threaded into the john guest tees inside the pod but i can just turn the valve to that pod off and reach in thru the access hole in the lids and pop the tee off and replace the tee with the nozzel with another tee and nozzel ive already threaded together. pretty easy. the fittings can add up quickly though as most of them are from $2-4 each but there reusable and not one of them has even let a drop squeeze by at these pressures.

I had remembered you had posted that about the PS that come with the pumps drifting and that is why i stayed clear of them. while looking for this pump one of the company reps acutually admitted to me when i asked him about that. He said they will definatly drift so if you need accuracy he said use external PS.

Im starting to think i could have gotten by with 2 nozzels in each pod because even with 2 sec on and 4 minutes off i still can see droplets pool on the net pots. i always used 4 before but then i wasnt concerned as i wasnt trying to just create mist. i do have a timer that goes to one second but its in the aero cloner. I might try that timer in this system if i cant get the root development im looking for. I might also try some .04oz per sec nozzels which is half the flow of these.

I played around with the flow restricter and found out that the more i open it up (still keeping it below the point it causes the PS to momentarly close) the longer the misting cycle continues after the selonoid closes. if kept really tight the mist stops immediatly.

Hows the vertical setup you were hoping to build going? I know more vertical space in the root zone is better for this but its hard to incorporate alot of vertical space into a tree design. I was going to use cone bottom tanks for the root zone on this but they just took up to much vertical space to allow for trees. Believe it or not those are just utility sinks with the legs removed and wheels added and insulation wrapped around them. Work great cause they drain completely not like a flat bottom container.

Do you have any nozzel clogging problems with those coolnets and are you able to clean or do you just replace.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 14, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> eBay has scads of 1 micron bags. [urlhttp://shop.ebay.com/?_from=R40&_trksid=p3984.m38.l1313&_nkw=1+micron+filter+bag&_sacat=See-All-Categories][/url]
> 
> Plastomatic makes nice valves with no metal wetted surfaces but even a 1/2" diaphragm type relief valves starts at $155. http://www.alscoplastics.com/product_p/0316-005-b.htm[
> 
> By my calculations for my smallest system to go to a higher pressure with accumalator tanks I would need three pumps and three tanks as I would need to supply 54 misters. I am not sure I am that displeased with the mid pressure (25 psi) system to put out the money for three sets of valves. There are some cheap reducer valves that are new surplus (not Plastomatic and only 1/4"but also only $20 or less) but no surplus all plastic pressure relief valves that I have seen. The pump costs and tank costs are not that bad. I think I would use 19 gallon tanks, with SU-8000 pumps (812-28. Even then with a minimum of 18 misters per tank/pump the duty cycle would probably still be around 2 to 3% at 50 psi mister pressure as the pump is just 1.3 gallons per minute free flowing. The tanks will alledgedly safely handle 100 psi, so possibly 75 psi might be a fure pressure used. Perhaps your using a different pump? I think even the smallest misters might be over kill even as the spacing is only 6 inches as it is a small 5" long six tube SOG set up. I think I would have to do an initail single pump/tank set up to see what the results will be with that high of pressure in small 4" tubes. Would you call the force of the droplets extreme or more of a mist/fog.


Fatman
Thanks for the heads up on the bags i never thought of looking there. To tell you the truth i dont think trying to put misters with really fine droplet sizes will work that well in small tubes like you have for the simple reason there isnt alot of space in there for the mist to disperse. the misters i have are not 360 degree either thier only 120 degree and the mist goes down from the nozzel so in a small tube there just wouldnt be enough room imho. 

http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8000-812-639.html this is the pump

http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=35&sort=2a&page=2 
these are the selenoid valves. very cheap and are very reliable. you might have to step them up or down cause the smallest they come in are 3/4". they have a flow restricter built in but i never had to restict the flow when using them at 40-60psi. 

the most nozzels i have run is 32 of the ones i linked to you before and i used a 40 gallon PT and a 1/2 HP jet pump that created 40-60 psi without any problems. the pumps are used for wells and sprinkler systems and whirlpools. those nozzels have a flow rate of 3/4GPH which with 54 nozzels would be approx. 40 GPH or .66 GPMinute. If you cycle the flow to 30 sec on every 3 minutes thats approx 17 cycles per hour which would use approx 34 gallons per hour. The shurflow pumps have low flows so thier not really going to work that well with those flow rates but there are other pumps that will work. I used jet pumps for those types of flows. even with a 40 gallon PT and those flows the pump would only kick in 2 times an hour four maybe 4 minutes. 

It all comes down to matching the nozzels flow rate with your on/off cycle to the pressure tank capacity and then a pump that can pump x amount of gallons at the required pressure to pressurize the accumulator tank. Remember when sizing a pressure tank that if it says 40 gallon that doesnt mean it will give you 40 gallons of water. they have a drawdown capacity that is less than the total they have. My little tank only is 5 gallon with around 1 gallon drawdown-(that means usable amount of water before it has to be pumped back up by the pump). I can get away with this small tank because my nozzels on this app have very low flow rates and i only have 16 nozzels. i couldnt run 54 nozzels on this small tank.

It can be somewhat confusing and your right dont believe what they list as the pressure for those tanks. they list the max pressure not the safe operating pressure which is always less than the listed. But most pressure tanks are designed for well or RO systems and can handle 60psi. its only when trying to find a large tank with high pressures it becomes difficult and expensive.

There is no force what soever the mist just comes out of the nozzel. i can put my hand right against the nozzel and even at 95psi in the line there is no force to injure my hand or the roots for that matter. Although like i said before the mist needs room to disperse.
When i used the 3/4 gph nozzels i had them in 22 gallon containers (4 in each).

I dont have any experience with nozzels in that small of a space but if i was doing tubes with 40-60psi i would make it net pot then nozzel then net pot. because the nozzels are 360 degrees and could cover 2 netpots. one on each side. maybe this is how you have it now


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 14, 2009)

The JG fittings are worth the money just for the convenience factor, you only have to buy them once as they`ll last forever.

I have most of the kit for the vertical, its just a case of finding the time to get hardware installed in the shed and the vertical installed in the greenhouse.. there`s always something more pressing on the wifes to-do list.

I bought an italian made external pressure switch with a working range of 3-12bar. The differential (cut-in/cut-out pressure swing) can be set as high as 45psi. The cheap ones on demand pumps might manage 15-20psi but with no guarantee it`ll be the same pressure every time 

No major clogging issues with the netafims with RO water and bag filters. Any that do coke up get soaked in kettle descaler overnight but it doesn`t happen very often. The netafims come apart i don`t throw them away as its easy to clean or replace each part if need be.

I`ve attached a pic so you can see the various bits and how they fit together. The egg shaped piece is the adv, it opens at 58psi and closes at 26psi. The orange colored blind nozzle useful for blocking off any unwanted outlets.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 14, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> Fatman
> Thanks for the heads up on the bags i never thought of looking there. To tell you the truth i dont think trying to put misters with really fine droplet sizes will work that well in small tubes like you have for the simple reason there isnt alot of space in there for the mist to disperse. the misters i have are not 360 degree either thier only 120 degree and the mist goes down from the nozzel so in a small tube there just wouldnt be enough room imho.
> 
> http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8000-812-639.html this is the pump
> ...


Presently I have the misters under mediumpressure of 20 to 25 psi in between ecah pot so I would just drill those holes out larger for the higher pressure nozzles. I run a 3/4" distributer bar between each two pipes with 1/4 JG fittings and 1/4" tubing for each mister. There is aa bit of discharge after flow is stopped to the distru ibuter and that would likely increase with higher pressure I would imagine. 

I am glad to hear the mist is not pacing and high pressure droplets with any force as my distance from mister to pot would only be three inches.

I take it would be a wiser choice to go with a greater pump duty cycle and a smaller accumulator tank than run the higher pressures with a larger tank just to decrease the duty cycle. The pumps are cheap enough that a bit of decreased life span would not be that bad.

I really am amazed that the roots can actually get by with so little misting. I hae benn literally drowning my roots in comparison to your spraying times and your evenconsidering cutting the flow by half of present flow.

I am likely running hotter temps (84-8, and also use CO2 so I likely have higher tranpiration rates proportionally but still 2 seconds every tow minutes. Would you change that to a misting every minute if the controller allowed it. I think I read that every two minutesis the most frequent span allowed by the misting controller. They seem a bit steeply priced with the 12 station being not that much more in cost than the single station controller, or did I just see prices on a starange site. It showed something like $500 for the single station and $600 for the twelve station controller.

The only item cost that really seems rough is the cost of a pressure relief valve that has no metal wetted parts. Still though they are not all that bad at about $155.

I figure the electricity savings between the high pressure acculalator tank system and the low pressure continous run pump system would be about 50% or $30 per month. The Iwaki pump retails for $300 and the Omron timer and solenoid would be reusable so the pay back period would only be about 30 months if only figuring in the electrical savings. The valves should all last longer than three years but the pumps I would be unsure of. Three years on an Iwaki RZ pump is about average with bearing seals usually being the only maintenance expense that ever comes up.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 14, 2009)

> I really am amazed that the roots can actually get by with so little misting


 One second using high pressure is quite a misting  
A single nozzle can deliver in the region of a few hundred million droplets (5um-50um) per second using 1/5 of a teaspoonful of water. 
If the root chamber is filled with mist in one second thats it..its full


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 14, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> The JG fittings are worth the money just for the convenience factor, you only have to buy them once as they`ll last forever.
> 
> I have most of the kit for the vertical, its just a case of finding the time to get hardware installed in the shed and the vertical installed in the greenhouse.. there`s always something more pressing on the wifes to-do list.
> 
> ...


Now i know what your talking about. ive seen those nozzel assembles before and i think they are a good choice for a big wide open chamber as the mist could come from 4 dirrections with one assembly. do they deliver the mist fine enough. just a quick google said around 85micron but i didnt spend alot of time looking maybe there is different models of those with different specs.

Well ive found out after a few days of monitoring ,that res temps dont correlate to root chamber temps like i had hoped. i remember you mentioning that in one of your posts. root zone only seems to stay 2-3 degrees below ambient temps even though the solution is being supplied at 68 degrees. the pods are insulated and i know from past experiences that the root zone stayed very close to solution temp but the difference i believe is before the flow was greater and thus cooled the chambers down and now the flow is very low with this mist and it has little effect on the root zone temps. i thought i would get some kind of evaporative effect similar to a swamp cooler but that doesnt seem to be the case. im thinking of some strategy to bring those root zone temps lower. i tryed just a small air pump pumping cool air from a 60 degree room but it didnt do anything. i know it would have to cool it down but i will need more airflow and im not quite sure how to do that. Do your root zone temps stay at solution temps. the res stays at a constant 65-68 degrees cause its in the ground. the accumulatoer tank is being replaced approx. every 15 minutes and has over 3 inches of insulation around it so it picks up very little heat before the nozzels. i was thinking of running a four inch line with a 4 inch inline fan from a 60 degree source and then break the 4 inch down into 4 one inch lines and put one in each chamber. each chamber is only approx. 4 cubic feet so a total of 16 cubic feet of space to exchange the air in shouldnt take long with a 150 cfm inline even broke down into 4 one inch lines. in theory it seems like it would work but i also dont know what effect that air exchange would have to the mist in the chambers. And i would have to have some way of controling the fan. Im thinking a temp sensor in one of the pods but then the sensor has to be water proof and somewhat accurate and i dont know how hard or expensive that probe would be. any suggestions on how to bring root zone temps down in the chambers. or is it really not necessary to have the root zone at approx 68 degrees.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 14, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Presently I have the misters under mediumpressure of 20 to 25 psi in between ecah pot so I would just drill those holes out larger for the higher pressure nozzles. I run a 3/4" distributer bar between each two pipes with 1/4 JG fittings and 1/4" tubing for each mister. There is aa bit of discharge after flow is stopped to the distru ibuter and that would likely increase with higher pressure I would imagine.
> 
> I am glad to hear the mist is not pacing and high pressure droplets with any force as my distance from mister to pot would only be three inches.
> 
> ...


when i ran at 40-60 psi i ran 30 sec on 4 minutes off or 2 minutes off depending on the age of the ladies. When running with 60-80 micron droplets (like the nozzels i was using and linked for you) the system has more flow and the roots get wetter no matter how short the cyles are because 60-80 microns will just pool more than less than 50 will. although as i have said even less than 50micron will pool with a short cycle. so you have to take into consideration that fact when deceiding what cycle to run. as far as the mist controller i have i cant remember where or how much it cost because ive had it for years. if it is that expensive its way over priced because i have other timers that will do 1 sec intervals and use any voltage from0-240ac or even dc voltages that you can get for around 80 i believe. ill get a link to them but it will take me awhile to find them because i havent bought one in a long long time. dont tell anyone i said this and i dont recommend it but ive run the 40-60psi rigs without PRV. if you look thru this thread you will see how ive used a second pressure switch to act as a PRV on this app. which im ok with but when i find the right one i will install a PRV because these are some very high pressures and i dont always believe the manufactures ratings on everything. i always kept my accumulater tanks out of the room to keep them cool usually in a closet ,i guess out of sight out of mind. Maybe it wasnt the best thing to do but ive been in many houses that have well systems that run PT and very few have PRV installed. there acually not that expensive and not hard to find for anything under 100psi so they should be installed.

Aero (LPor HP)is suppose to try and let the roots breath some thats what gives it advantages over other hdro systems so a person should just supply what they need and then let them have air imho. so if able to control the cycle i would set it as low as i could and still provide them with what they need to feed. I bet those tubes do pretty well with a sog. i do think you could benifit from cycling and you sure could save on electric and wear and tear by using an accumulater tank. now i have cycled pumps 30 sec on 3 off before for long periods without any problems but it takes a little time for the pump to get up to pressure and then it continues misting for a bit after turning off. but i saw better results with the cycling than straight misting. i know others say they havent so each has to judge for themselves.

I would use a little larger tank if i could find one but at around 100psi there isnt many to be had larger than the one i have. for a little lower pressure they can be had in larger sizes. i did state that i have used some really large ones where the solution sat for long periods before being replaced and thought it caused me some caking issues in the plumbing and some decrease in production but i cant be certain it could be solely attributed to the larger PT and longer storage solution times.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 14, 2009)

I don`t worry too much about the chamber air temp tracking the room temp. If the room temp rises you`ll probably need to increase the misting cycles anyway due to the girls drinking more so its kind of self balancing.
A fan would work to bring chamber temps down but it would have to be a fairly gentle flow otherwise you risk drying the roots and swapping one problem for another  To control the fan all you`d need is a thermostat with a remote sensor and a 30 second delay timer to kill the fan during and after the misting cycle..another job for a relay  

According to the Netafim specs the nozzles generate 30-90&#956;m at a pressure of 3-4 bars. 
http://www.wilsonirr.com/downloads/netafim.pdf
On page 20 of the pdf there`s a graph of the 7.5LPH nozzle performance tested by CEMAGREF. I bought half a dozen to test and they generate a very nice mist at 6 bar.

If you dont need 4way nozzles you can get a single version. For bidirectional misting a 4way with 2 blind nozzles does the trick.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 15, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I don`t worry too much about the chamber air temp tracking the room temp. If the room temp rises you`ll probably need to increase the misting cycles anyway due to the girls drinking more so its kind of self balancing.
> A fan would work to bring chamber temps down but it would have to be a fairly gentle flow otherwise you risk drying the roots and swapping one problem for another  To control the fan all you`d need is a thermostat with a remote sensor and a 30 second delay timer to kill the fan during and after the misting cycle..another job for a relay
> 
> According to the Netafim specs the nozzles generate 30-90&#956;m at a pressure of 3-4 bars.
> ...


Ya i think im going to wait and see if the root chamber temps become an issue. im sure once the tree shades the pod that will lower the temps some anyway and your probably right about having to increase the cycle as things progress.

Have you seen the atomix system (which now has went under) what do you think of these. Id like to buid one and have done some peliminary research for the nozzels and compressor needed. I guy did a couple runs that he documented at UK420 if you want to check it out. username was g-love. they showed some spectacular root development.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 15, 2009)

Fatman
http://www.iseincstore.com/422_Timer.aspx
heres a link to the timer. these can do any timing situation imaginable and very versitile. you do have to mount and wire the ends on but with the surface mount kit and directions its pretty easy. i just mount them in a pull box (a box electicians use to terminate cables into)you can get at any store like lowes or home depo for 8 bucks.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 15, 2009)

The atomix is a nice piece of kit. It sounds like the owners have sold the rights to a stateside company so it`ll probably be available sooner or later..along with a super high price tag 
I believe pump based systems can do just as well with a short cycle timing. G-love found that overdoing the misting caused the fine root hairs to die back rapidly. He accidently tested the effects of a seriously hot root chamber when he placed a radiator too close to the compressors air intake


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 17, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> The atomix is a nice piece of kit. It sounds like the owners have sold the rights to a stateside company so it`ll probably be available sooner or later..along with a super high price tag
> I believe pump based systems can do just as well with a short cycle timing. G-love found that overdoing the misting caused the fine root hairs to die back rapidly. He accidently tested the effects of a seriously hot root chamber when he placed a radiator too close to the compressors air intake


ya lve read his reports as i was doing research on the components for one of those. i do think they have some advantages in the way air can be moved around and manipulated somewhat easier that HP water. Ive found those nozzels but they are around $250 . Its the compressors that are so expensive.

I have my pump in a sound deadening box i built (2 layers sheetrock,plywood,insulation and sound deading foam.)an you can hardly hear it running but what makes noise is the transmission of the pulsating pump thru the intake hose that sucks the solution out of the rez. I tryed to use some more flexible hose instead of the more ridgid poly on there now but the pump just doesnt want to prime up with that softer hose. the hose doesnt collapse as the pump is trying to suck it up so i cant quit figure out why it wont prime with the flixible hose. the ridgid it will prime right up with though. any ideas why it wouldnt prime with flexible.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 17, 2009)

If the flexible has the same bore as the rigid i wouldn`t expect any difference. If it collapsed with the suction it would make sense as the pump inlet gets starved of water..but if it isnt collapsing thats out  
Maybe the flexible pipe coupled with lifting from the buried res is pushing towards the pumps suction lift capacity? 
The pump could be using some lift capacity trying to collapse the flexible pipe even though there isn`t any noticeably collapse. Having said that your hefty pump should have plenty of suction lift available. You could try adding a foot valve to see if that helps.
I use aquatec pumps which don`t have a have huge flowrate but are almost silent. Other pumps i`ve tried include an old shurflo that sounded like a bucket of bolts and a stainless steel jetpump that sounded..pretty much like a jet


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 17, 2009)

Atomizer
When you say foot valve are you talking about a check valve. I dont know what your referring to with footvalve. i have a check valve on the output side of the pump to keep the line from going back thru the pump after it shuts off. do you mean try one on the inlet side also?


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 17, 2009)

Most diaghragm pumps only allow flow one way and shouldn`t need a check valve, although the shurflo could be different 
A foot valve works the same as a check except theres almost no cracking pressure. If you have a spare you could test it with a standard check valve. The downside is the pump will have to manage the cracking pressure to open it. 

I`d be tempted to test the flexible hose with some positive head, a bucket of water located above the pump, and see if it primes ok with that.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 17, 2009)

Atomizer
I cant seem to get this thing to let me quote. When i click quote it tells me to log in and im already logged in , anyway im not sure if i need the check valve i just assumed since on the pumps specs it didnt say it had a builtin check valve i needed one and i have seen (builtin check valve) listed on other surflow diaphram pumps specs. I have never tested to see if the pump allows the line to flow back once pressurized but im definately going to check now that you mention it to see if it really needs the check valve. Also even if the pump doesnt allow flow backwards i wonder if it still isnt a good idea to keep the check valve there because with the check valve where it is(after the pump and filter, and before the pressure gauge and pressure switches) i can unhook the filter for cleaning or if need be do something to the pump, and the accumulator tank would remain pressurized thus the misting could continue uninterupted. i could even back the selenoid off times longer to extend the period if need be in an emergency to work on the pump or filter. I guess a regular shut off valve in the same position will accomplish the same thing. and i do have some JG quick connect shutoff valves.

I tryed the flex hose with a pail sitting at floor level to see if it would pick it up out of the pail (as there is about 1-1.5 ft difference in hieght from the res bottom to floor level) and it still wouldnt suck it up. i never tryed with something above the pump though. Anyway what i did was take the 1/2"poly tubing and stick it into the res thru some PVC 3/4" and then cut some neoprene collars to take the extra space up from the 1/2" poly to 3/4"PVC thus isolating the pulsating from transmitting thru the res lid and into the room structure. It really made a big difference


----------



## Alaric (Oct 17, 2009)

The simple reason aero is the most effective method for growing plants is----increased dissolved oxygen.

The problem with most aero systems is limited root zone volume, ie; shallow chambers.

If your pump head pressure is adequate to create a "mist" using whatever method-----in ample root space----stand back and watch the explosion of growth.

Yea,yea,yea-----everything else has to be in bounds.

Alaric


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 17, 2009)

Alaric

Yea ive seen what just a spray ( not mist ) can do with just one plant in a 22 gallon cantainer. these are 22"x 22" by 14 " deep. im not sure if thats going to be enough space since this is a mist and not a spray but im sure there is enough room for at least a shrub if not a tree.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 17, 2009)

Hi TF
Glad to hear you got the pulsation issue fixed and everything running quiet. Putting basic shut off`s at strategic points in the plumbing will make maintenance easier. Your 4 nozzles arranged equally around a single tree root should do a good job of distributing the mist. Multiple plant sites just need reasonable spacing as the roots don`t fill out too much near the top theres plenty of gap for the mist to get through. As for maximum chamber depth.. the roots will hit the floor no matter what it is


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 18, 2009)

Hey atomizer
Yea ive always tryed to think of ways to keep the roots off the bottom but i think even if you had 10 feet of vertical space they would go to the bottom anyway. when i used flat bottom containers running at lower pressures i use to put a screen about 2 inches off the bottom of the chamber and cover the screen with silk screen. it worked great. the roots would never grow thru the silk screen . it kept the roots from soaking in between misting cycles because it allowed the roots to stay out of the runoff. of coarse using the larger droplet spays the roots would mat up. i always hated how a little bit of solution sat in the bottom of the containers thats why i wanted something that would drain completely. (thats why i like the sinks). 

One thing with this system there is alot of media because of the 10inch net pots. all that media(hydroton) seems to hold alot of moisture. im at 2 sec every 6 minutes and everything is going great im even tempted to try more off time. theres just a bit of fuzz outside the nets.


anyway i read that in the atomix they recommended a spreader mat on the chamber floor and i had thought of trying that with these but where i live its hard to get that stuff. what do you think about the spreader mat idea in the chamber floor?


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 18, 2009)

Spreader mat is marvellous stuff. Using it on the floor of the chamber should help generate a more even rootmat, i guess waterlogging may be an issue if it gets too dense.
I tested spreader mat supported by plastic mesh to encourage roots to grow down a slope as i need to generate airspace for the mist between the vertical wall and the main rootmass.
It may distribute the root area more effectively for a single plant per container. Imagine the roots growing down/around a gentle (spiral?) slope and eventually cascading over each side. They will grow through the spreader mat/mesh and into the void below. 
The result would be a chamber filled with mostly suspended roots and plenty of space for mist to circulate versus a single drop root column and a whole heap of roots laying on the floor of the chamber 
I guess its something along the lines of scrog but for roots


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 18, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Spreader mat is marvellous stuff. Using it on the floor of the chamber should help generate a more even rootmat, i guess waterlogging may be an issue if it gets too dense.
> I tested spreader mat supported by plastic mesh to encourage roots to grow down a slope as i need to generate airspace for the mist between the vertical wall and the main rootmass.
> It may distribute the root area more effectively for a single plant per container. Imagine the roots growing down/around a gentle (spiral?) slope and eventually cascading over each side. They will grow through the spreader mat/mesh and into the void below.
> The result would be a chamber filled with mostly suspended roots and plenty of space for mist to circulate versus a single drop root column and a whole heap of roots laying on the floor of the chamber
> I guess its something along the lines of scrog but for roots


 

if i can get my hands on some mat i think ill try it in one and see if it makes a difference. the whole idea of scrogging the roots has always been something ive thought about but havent come up with any real good solutions. the idea of having the roots go down a slope is interesting but im not sure i understand what your saying completely. if you made some sort of cone from the bottom of the net pot to the floor the roots would follow it down but you would have a void inside the cone. Would the mist outside be able to penetrate thru the roots as they developed into that void behind the slope leading to the chamber floor?

Ive thought about having layers in the chamber where the roots could grow down from the net pots to lets say 4 inches then have a screen almost the size of the chamber so the roots would fill the screen then drop over the edges on to the next screen below it (lets say another 4 inches down) and continue this layering to the chamber floor. the problem i see though is a person would have to have misters on each layer going down as i dont know if mist from above on nthe top layer would be able to penetrate thru the sucessive layers
going down to the floor. i dont know if that makes sense but maybe its kind of what your trying to explain.

I couldnt do that really in these chambers because the large net pots drop down pretty far into the chambers. i know from using the 22 gallon flat bottoms that even large trees just dropped to the container floor and layered there. now from looking at g-loves pics his roots seemed to fluf out into the chamber void even though they did fill up the chamber floor also. im hoping that will happen somewhat. what do you think the effective penetration of mist is? do you think it could penetrate a 2 inch thick layer of roots on the chamber floor cause i know thats what trees in Lp aero generated.(as far as thickness of the root mass on the chamber floor goes) i guess its just going to be a" play it as it goes kind of thing." i think its best to keep things smaller first to see how things play out in the chambers. there might be a reason ive never seen a large girl with a true HP aero.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 19, 2009)

> if you made some sort of cone from the bottom of the net pot to the floor the roots would follow it down but you would have a void inside the cone.


How about a very shallow mesh cone located in just the upper part of the chamber? Ideally the mist would need to be inside/under the cone. The roots will spread out and cover the top surface of the cone mesh and also hopefully grow down "en mass" to the chamber floor. 
The perfect outcome would be a complete column of suspended roots covering the same area as the diameter of the cone base. There should be plenty of open spaces within the distributed rootmass for the mist to penetrate. 
In the early stages the mist will be able to fire through the cone mesh..at least until the roots have completely covered it.
1/4" x 1/4" stainless steel mesh would be a good material for the cone. 
At the end of the grow just cut the bulk of the roots away and throw the cone into an incinerator. The roots burn to ash and the mesh is sterilized by fire 

Anything on the floor of the chamber is likely to get a surface misting and the rest mostly runoff and perhaps any larger droplets that fall rapidly. If the rootmat is fairly open it will penetrate but that wouldn`t be for very long with a tree


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 19, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> How about a very shallow mesh cone located in just the upper part of the chamber? Ideally the mist would need to be inside/under the cone. The roots will spread out and cover the top surface of the cone mesh and also hopefully grow down "en mass" to the chamber floor.
> The perfect outcome would be a complete column of suspended roots covering the same area as the diameter of the cone base. There should be plenty of open spaces within the distributed rootmass for the mist to penetrate.
> In the early stages the mist will be able to fire through the cone mesh..at least until the roots have completely covered it.
> 1/4" x 1/4" stainless steel mesh would be a good material for the cone.
> ...


thats a very interesting idea that id like to try. i wont be able to try it right away but i do think that with the flexible tubing and the JG quick connects the nozzels could be changed around to accomadate some concept like that without to much modifying.

maybe seperate the chamber with the shallow cone SS mesh but dont let it go completely to the edge of the chamber leave maybe 2 inches from the edge of the chamber . (thats in reference to the base of the SS mesh cone.) keep 2 nozzels above firing downward so the mist would fill the upper void and initially could go thru the screen until the mat got to thick . and then put 2 nozzels below firing into the void thus misting the roots that come thru and hang into the void and also misting the roots laying on the chamber floor. it would effectively give you twice the floor area for roots to spread out onto, and like you said hopefully create alot off suspended roots hanging from the top mesh cone that are being misted in the void. I can see already that its going to get crazy in the root zone. 

You said anything on the chamber floor is likely to get a surface misting and the rest mostly runoff. im assuming that these roots under the surface layer getting the mist will turn into effectively NFT type roots. What my concerns are is that unlike the LP aero i used with higher water flow rates this system wont have enough runoff to support those roots that are lying under the surface layer being misted. of coarse i could increase the misting to ensure adequate runoff to these roots but that would effectively kill the delicate root hairs a person wants to create above in the chambers. maybe the roots will only mat so much on the floor because they seek moisture and they wont grow towards where there isnt any moisture.

I wanted to ask you if you thought i could use a brass pressure relief vavle on a low part of the pressurized line and put a check valve before it. I thought this would keep only the solution that was between the PRV and the check valve in contact with the nutrient solution and this solution could never go into the system because its facing down and trapped by the check valve. And if i put it facing down on a low part of the line i could just drain that little bit out every time i changed solution. Im thinking this way would keep any solution that has come in contact with the brass from entering into the system
why this, its because im tired of trying to find one that is SS or plastic that doesnt cost so dam much.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 19, 2009)

I don`t see any issues with using a brass PRV after a check valve, definitely cheaper 
I wouldn`t alter the misting cycle just to accomodate the rootmat on the floor. The ideal solution would be to run a dedicated nft flow solely for the floor rootmat once its established. 
At that point you`d have two distinct root zone types that are essentially seperate. It makes good sense to use the most efficient irrigation method for each type and theres no chance of one adversely affecting the other


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 19, 2009)

Yea thats what im going to do with the PRV situation cause i can get an adjustable one local for $25 and then i think ill bump the pressure in the system to 80-100psi as ill feel better knowing i have the second pressure switch and the PRV in case something happened.

Well i found out from close examination the my selenoid valve bleeds 1-2psi between misting cycles. It actually was bleeding more when i discoverd it but then i cranked the flow resticter down some more and got it to only let the 1-2psi thru between misting cycles of 4 off and 2 sec on. I can get it to stop bleeding anything but then the flow is to restricted to deliver an adequate amount of solution for the nozzels to give a nice mist.I dont like that so it looks like im going to have to find a different type of selenoid without the flow restricter on it because i hate wasting that psi as it shortens the lenght of time it takes for the pump to come on. i also found out that when the pump cuts off the whole system will go down 2-3 psi from where the pump cut off at. i put shutoff valves before the selenoid and before the check vavle to rule out them leaking a little by after pump cut off. i have not one drop of water anywhere and am somewhat perplexed as to where those 2-3 psi go. im wondering if that is just the gauge settling in or if the poly tubing absorbs those couple of psi or what. have you ever noticed this on a system before cause i never have but then again ive never run these pressures before. i just hope if i get a half inch selenoid without the flow restricter (there is a 3/4 one on there now stepped down to 1/2 ") that i dont run into the problem of the pressure switch momentarly closing like before. i guess if that happens ill have to adjust the differential between the cuton and the cutoff settings. (narrow it) Do you think ill have any problems with the 1/2 " selinoid? Alot of little tweaks to get everything just right it seems. But that is with any new system.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 19, 2009)

Hi TF
A 1/2" solenoid will be ok. Wouldn`t worry about the 2-3psi drop. The dynamic pump pressure will be a little higher than the static system pressure. When the pump stops pushing, the pressure in the system redistributes to find its balance point.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 19, 2009)

Have either of you tried working togeter an aeromister systems such as the atmix with an air atomizer. Delavan Industrial supply in the UK sells world wide and likely they even produce the atomix atomizer for them. I very much doubt that atomix got an exclusive on the atomizer but just got a trade mark registration on the name. I sent an email off to their U.S. North Carolina office to see what they have to say about providing comprable atomizers. 

Delavan under their PDF on Swirl-Air nozzles have a good chart on water particle sizes showing a nozzle that looks like it will fill the bill without extrememely high pressures. About 2.75 bar with 50 micron and smaller with 7.5 liters per minute. The nozzle # 31618 or 32555. I am quite sure a good system could be put to gether for a lot less than the over $3000 US dollars (plus over seas shipping) charged for an Atomix.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 20, 2009)

Hi
Even a homebrew is out of my price range  The silent compressor is the biggest cost with the nozzles running a close second. 
The mean flow versus droplet size graphs for the swirl-air nozzles are quite interesting. 
The 31618 or 32555 nozzles deliver 50 micron average droplets at 40psi with a liquid flowrate of 2gpm (7.5lpm). The 31693 or 32668 nozzles are looking better at 30psi pressure with 0.5gpm (1.9lpm) liquid flow.
As a comparison the nozzles i use deliver 0.022gpm at 60psi, i`d have to run 23 nozzles to equal the liquid delivery of one swirl-air with a 1 second pulse. 
To my mind, if you can generate the correct droplet sizes the plants won`t mind if you used a compressor or a water pump


----------



## Treeth (Oct 20, 2009)

im into those delevan nozzles too...

the AL-90 is my favorite. 
I was quoted for one, a brass iteration, for 600$... a production run of 1 for me at the closest shop which holds Delevan's designs. 

Atomizer, 
apparently one nozzle is enough flow to adequately wet a given reservoir, which answers my first question is-one-enough;
My second though is whether stainless example is worth 400 more, making a 1000$ nozzle? 

and Tree Farmer,

you found the 'atomix' nozzle supplier? Please share!


- I love you guys,
great thread.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 20, 2009)

The compressors are simple in the states. They are really just small refrigeration compressors. Hell you can buy a half horse power window air conditioner brand new for $100. All the other controls are readily avilable and cheap. I am sure delevan has many more atomizers that they list on line. I have not yet been steered to any atomizers putting out a consistent 50 microns and smaller at reasonable pressures yet. 75 psi is just not reaonable. If I could obtain atomix atomizers at a fair price I could definitely see building a homebrew atomix over a high pressure water mister. As the economics of expansion of the atomix would trump the costs of several high pressure water systems. The only advantage I see to the home brew high pressure water system is the cheap misters used. The atomix air atomisers would eliminate the need for the high pressure pump(s) and high pressure, plastic lined accumalator tank(s) and basically cut the system down to a few solenoids at fairly low pressure requirements and a pressure reducer valve, pressure switch and presurre relief that could made of about any metal as they would be non wetted. The only real stumbling block seems to be the atomizer. Like said though. If you know who the atomix atomizer supplier is please share.

I am aware that there are misters available with outputs in the range you use. http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=558 Or even ones with less emitted (0.18 at 80 to100 psi): http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=123 But for me with a larger system in SOG an air atomised would be more economical and eaiser maintained if the atomizers could be bought at a fair price.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 20, 2009)

Treeth said:


> Atomizer,
> apparently one nozzle is enough flow to adequately wet a given reservoir, which answers my first question is-one-enough;
> My second though is whether stainless example is worth 400 more, making a 1000$ nozzle?


The Atomix uses two nozzles for a 1m x 1m x 400mm deep chamber. I recall they introduced a larger chamber 1.7m x 1.2m i`m guessing they used two for that as well.

I`m not clued up on compressors but i guess the air quality would need to be up to scratch with no contaminants. 
The atomix website used to list what size/number of systems each bambi compressor model could run.

These nozzles look very similar and are coded "X" maybe the system name is derived from a nozzle code 
http://www.icsindustrialservices.co.uk/air-atomising


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 20, 2009)

Treeth said:


> im into those delevan nozzles too...
> 
> the AL-90 is my favorite.
> I was quoted for one, a brass iteration, for 600$... a production run of 1 for me at the closest shop which holds Delevan's designs.
> ...


I dont know who there supplier is i just know from studying these nozzels and talking to tech people who sell them its not hard to get a nozzel to do what the atomix nozzels do. they are basically a external mix siphon air atomizing nozzel with a cleanout button option(which by the way i read dont work that well) on them. These nozzels have a vast range of options to make them do almost any size droplet at any flow rate at any flow pattern. On good nozzels you can control the liquid pressure and the air pressure and another line thats called the fan air. Varying these can produce a large array of different outcomes. These types of nozzels are used in industrial apps so they make them to do almost anything. you have to do alittle studying to be able to understand these things when talking to the suppliers cause of all the different options they come in. but they will sell them to you. if you do a search "air atomizing nozzels" you will come up with a few different companies. they have some very good litature on thier web pages to figure out what your after.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 20, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> The compressors are simple in the states. They are really just small refrigeration compressors. Hell you can buy a half horse power window air conditioner brand new for $100. All the other controls are readily avilable and cheap. I am sure delevan has many more atomizers that they list on line. I have not yet been steered to any atomizers putting out a consistent 50 microns and smaller at reasonable pressures yet. 75 psi is just not reaonable. If I could obtain atomix atomizers at a fair price I could definitely see building a homebrew atomix over a high pressure water mister. As the economics of expansion of the atomix would trump the costs of several high pressure water systems. The only advantage I see to the home brew high pressure water system is the cheap misters used. The atomix air atomisers would eliminate the need for the high pressure pump(s) and high pressure, plastic lined accumalator tank(s) and basically cut the system down to a few solenoids at fairly low pressure requirements and a pressure reducer valve, pressure switch and presurre relief that could made of about any metal as they would be non wetted. The only real stumbling block seems to be the atomizer. Like said though. If you know who the atomix atomizer supplier is please share.
> 
> I am aware that there are misters available with outputs in the range you use. http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=558 Or even ones with less emitted (0.18 at 80 to100 psi): http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=123 But for me with a larger system in SOG an air atomised would be more economical and eaiser maintained if the atomizers could be bought at a fair price.


I dont know enough about compressors to take an AC and turn it into a air compressor but if you can do that then the nozzels can be had from 200-600 depending on how much control you want over the spray characteristics. the compressors like atomix used run into the thousands of dollars when running 8-10 nozzels. that is why i went with this system. i do hope to still buid 4 pods with air atomizing nozzels and then id use this system for veg. I dont think its much of an issue with air pressures being 100-150psi. that type of pressure seems to be common with air. these nozzels run in the lower ranges from what ive read. the people running the atomix were in the 30-40psi range but thier compressors were charging the tanks to 100psi or slightly more. i do think your right in that these system could be built with more readily available parts but i dont know if it would be much cheaper.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 20, 2009)

Hey atomizer
Do you have any baseline EC and PH levels for these HP systems. Even an educated guess as to what to start and finish with. G-love said he was in the .4-.6 EC range and 5.8-6.4PH range. i know enviro conditions and genetec will play a part but a guy has to start somewhere. Have you noticed that they require lower EC levels in these systems compared to traditional LP areo.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 20, 2009)

I use RO with canna hydro nutes, no additives and run between EC 0.4 - 1.0, the PH drifts 5.6-6.2
As you say, you`ll probably have to modify for strain, water quality (tapwater) and the brand of nutes. Even growing trees could make a difference. With anything new the safe bet is to start low, watch the plants and go from there.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 20, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I use RO with canna hydro nutes, no additives and run between EC 0.4 - 1.0, the PH drifts 5.6-6.2
> As you say, you`ll probably have to modify for strain, water quality (tapwater) and the brand of nutes. Even growing trees could make a difference. With anything new the safe bet is to start low, watch the plants and go from there.


I wish i had some canna nutes. thats what id like to run but they cant be had locally. Using my trusted GH. Ive had some issues with GH but always seem to get it sorted out after a little trial and error. one thing i do not like is the staining GH nutes produce. I use to run my LP aeros at lower PH's 5.2-6 and really had good luck with that but im going with alittle higher on this at first.
I never really noticed much difference in feeding trees compared to what i saw others feeding smaller ones. i always stayed in the 300-1300ppm range with LP aero trees. do you run the aqua or substra? 

I think im also going to change from sucking out of the buried rez to a container thats at ground level in another room and then collect the runoff in the buried rez and pump it back into the container every so often. I think i made somewhat of a mistake by using a cooler in the ground rez. it seems to hold the heat in from the return and not dissipate it into the surrounding ground. Ive buried containers before but never a cooler. Ive had to use heaters though before in the winter or the solution would get to cold with uninsulated containers so i thought the cooler would solve that. Maybe when it gets colder the cooler will turn out to have been a good choice. Im going to put some pipe insulation around the return hose and the short line from the res to the pump and see if the return wont pick up as much heat as it moves thru the system. Its not bad now really. it stays at 69 degrees but im running the room ambient a little cooler than id like just to keep the solution under 70 degrees.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 21, 2009)

Hi TF
Its the canna hydro vega/flores range, softwater version.
If you could find an uninsulated container the same size you`d have the option of swapping them over in summer and winter. Insulating the pipework should help, maybe wrap aluminium foil tape over the top to stop radiant heat getting to it.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 21, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF
> Its the canna hydro vega/flores range, softwater version.
> If you could find an uninsulated container the same size you`d have the option of swapping them over in summer and winter. Insulating the pipework should help, maybe wrap aluminium foil tape over the top to stop radiant heat getting to it.


thats a good idea about swapping them but it might be hard to find a container long and narrow like a cooler , ill defiently keep my eye out while shopping. I could also make one to fit with a little work. I only do one or 2 runs a year thats enough to last all year for me. Anyway i thought "let me just take the lid off the cooler and then the solution could be at least exposed to the cooler air down there. Well i was happy to see that in 12 hrs the solution dropped 3 degrees to 66.5 degrees. I think just leaving the cover off might do the trick. there is another lid that seperates the cooler rez from the room, just to clarify. Fuzz is exploding (hit the floor in 2 days)but having some issues getting EC levels right or correcting cal-mag def. might try lowering ph but like to only try one thing at a time otherwise you dont know what really worked. I can tell the systems going to be a racehorse once dialed in.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 21, 2009)

hey atomizer 

Is the canna flores a 2 part nute. where you have to add the grow and the bloom. And do you follow the recommended ratio. I know you adjust the ec but im talking about the ratio between the the two parts (veg&bloom). Or is it just a one part nute where you just add the veg for veg and the bloom for flower.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 22, 2009)

I really do not know why so many growers on these forum sites by grossly over priced nutrient concentrates. Sure not a lot of people have the ISE meters or a spectrophotomer to do an anlysis of specific brand and type of nutrient formulation, however most of those analysis are already avilable on line on one forum or another. My self as the equipment is needed in my profession and reef keeping hobby/business I already have the test equipment. I also work at a university so have a few friends that can do the more exotic tests I can not do. I did get lazy and bought some nutrient formulation hardware though. If you need a formulation made up based on an analyisis of a formula you wish to produce for your own use I can give you a formula if you have the analyiis or no the ppm you wish to use. The concentrate can be at what ever you wish up to the level of saturation/precipitation. I have analysis data for products from: Genearl Hydro, Genisis, Dutch Nutrient, Techna Flora, Gen-X, Holland Secret, Hydrofarm and Genesis. A few others but I do not wish to list the names. I do not have analysis on any Canna product yet. They do divulge their ingrediants online but I have neverseen or run an aalysis on any of their products as I have not bought any yet. I know I spend less than $1 per gallon mixing up two part concentrates at 100X. That means my per gallon cost of RODI water I use to mix up my nutrient water actually cost mis higher than the nutrients used per gallon.

Thank you very much for the ICS atomizer link. I think they have just what I need. Now to check the prices. I hate checking prices. I always feel raped these days by the absurd prices everyone charges for just about everything.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 22, 2009)

A new cheap inline canister type mesh filter on eBat at make an offer. http://cgi.ebay.com/SPRAYING-SYSTEMS-122-PP-T-STYLE-PLASTIC-VALVES-CS-30_W0QQitemZ300358904500QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45eec92ab4

Here is the description by the manafacturer.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkw4gIeBKi0MBUtlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZmQ3bmgyBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4MjNfMTM4/SIG=11vtdc8sj/EXP=1256288928/**http://www.spraying.pl/broszury/pdf/c35.pdf 122-PP page #4 As can be seen the filter inserts are available in meshs down to 200 micron.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 22, 2009)

Hi TF, 
Hydro vega for vegging and the hydro flores for flowering, its a 2 part with equal amounts of A & B.

Hi Fatman,
Make sure your sitting down when ICS gives you the price, i can`t see them being cheap. Theres no hydro store in my town so i have to pay shipping on the nutes as well


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 22, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF,
> Hydro vega for vegging and the hydro flores for flowering, its a 2 part with equal amounts of A & B.
> 
> Hi Fatman,
> Make sure your sitting down when ICS gives you the price, i can`t see them being cheap. Theres no hydro store in my town so i have to pay shipping on the nutes as well


Hey atomizer
Well im been researching the nute thing here for a couple of days. it seems to indicate that lower PH levels should be used in true aero. ive also noticed that the nutes that are suppose to be formulated for true aero(bio) seem to have alot higher levels of P and K than what the normal hydro nutes recommend. i know that bio's nutes are formulated for different plant species but no matter which plant species formula you look at they all have higher p and k values than whats recomended for just normal hydro. I dont know why that is and i havent found the answer yet but im assuming that these people have used tissue samples to arrive at thier formulas. I mean this is NASA stuff supposedly. Anyway why im looking into this is the regular formulas i use to use for my LP aero systems are not showing the same results im seeing now. The test subjects are progressing faster than the LP im use too but i can see there not completly happy. I know alot of times they just grow out of it but its nice to have things just right. have you ever noticed any def with the recommended ratios of canna? Or do things always look nice and healthy.

I looked at the link you provided for the air atomizing nozzels and they are basically the same setup options as the USA companies offer. They sure do look like alot of fun though. but it isnt going to be cheap to make one of them, unless you could find the air compressor . I actually contacted the distributor for the bambi line in north america and got a quote on one that could run 8-10 nozzels(according to the info off the atomix web site.) the price was $3800. on some of the North American suppliers of these air atomizing nozzels websites they have data on exactly how much air is required to get the desired flow rates. But looking at that data seemed to me that the info atomix had listed for which compressor was needed for x amount of nozzels was pretty accurate. so in my case it wouldnt be cheap unless i found an air compressor at a rumage sale




.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 22, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> A new cheap inline canister type mesh filter on eBat at make an offer. http://cgi.ebay.com/SPRAYING-SYSTEMS-122-PP-T-STYLE-PLASTIC-VALVES-CS-30_W0QQitemZ300358904500QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45eec92ab4
> 
> Here is the description by the manafacturer.
> http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkw4gIeBKi0MBUtlXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzZmQ3bmgyBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNQRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4MjNfMTM4/SIG=11vtdc8sj/EXP=1256288928/**http://www.spraying.pl/broszury/pdf/c35.pdf 122-PP page #4 As can be seen the filter inserts are available in meshs down to 200 micron.


This is a nice filter as far as the pressure rating goes but 200 microns if not good enough for the nozzels i have. i run a 22 micron and a 1 micron absolute. they recommend 5 micron or less filtration with these nozzels.

you sound like you know alot about nutes im still learning alot. i have meters to monitor ph and ec levels its the ratio of these in the solution and what ratios of npk are optimal for 50 micron sprays im trying to learn about. Ive not come across anyone who has run these systems and documented it who hasnt had some issues with the recommended advice given for LP aero or hydro , in regards to ec levels, ratios betwen NPK and PH.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 22, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> This is a nice filter as far as the pressure rating goes but 200 microns if not good enough for the nozzels i have. i run a 22 micron and a 1 micron absolute. they recommend 5 micron or less filtration with these nozzels.
> 
> you sound like you know alot about nutes im still learning alot. i have meters to monitor ph and ec levels its the ratio of these in the solution and what ratios of npk are optimal for 50 micron sprays im trying to learn about. Ive not come across anyone who has run these systems and documented it who hasnt had some issues with the recommended advice given for LP aero or hydro , in regards to ec levels, ratios betwen NPK and PH.


I threw out the 200 micron number because that was size was discuseed earlier in the thread. The mesh presently in the filter is 30 micron and the replacement mesh filter inserts only go down to 16 micron.


My knowe ledge of nutrients springs out of just reading a lot. My job as an environmental engineers is to remove nutrients. I teach two graduate courses, one in water treatment and the other in waste water treatment plantt design. Other than that I work with aquatic chemistry a lot (fish hatcheries bio filtration) so I am constantly dealing with primary nutrients, carbonates, heavy metals, pH and dissolved oxygen demands. I also have marine reef aquariums so that gives me more reason to have a small water quality lab in my house. And I am old so I have been at it for a while. I have been growing indoors under lights for 25 years.

I have never worked with any nutrient system more advanced than aeroponics with low to medium pressures though. I would pay for the shiping oof a package containing a few ml of each Canna product you hae so as to run an analysis to betermine their concentrations. I am quite sure they would ost no more than a dlooar or maybe 2 dollars per gallon for a minmium of a 100X concentrate. I would even give you the results in grams per liter to reproduce the product if you wish. I could even give a formulation for the maximum concentray tion that the tow parst formulations could be mixed at without and precipitation being formed. I assume they have at least three formulations. A micro (Part 1), and a veg (Part II) and a bloom (Part II), there fore three formulations. The best formulation however would be my making the forulation also based uopon the anlaysis of your waternused if it is not close to pur RODI water. If your interested let me know. I would only need enough concentrtae of each to mix about 250 ml. ie 2.5 ml of each likely. That is actually alot more than I need but with that amount small errors are not as likely to have any great effects on the results. 1/2 teasppon of each is an awfully cheap price for obtaining the formulation analysis on a quite expensive retail nutrient formulation.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 22, 2009)

I think it`d definitely be worth a go if you could get away with a noisey (aka cheap) compressor, i`m not in the coverted position of living miles from anywhere unfortunately  
From the atomix info, they recommended a PH of 5.8 and advocate using a drain to waste type nutrient. Their theory was the roots only get one shot to grab what they need so everything has to be available in the mist. 
I`m not sure how accurate that is though as most dtw systems use some kind of media which will increase the contact time.
I bought some 12vdc solenoids with 15mm pushfit connections for the vertical project today, i figured they`d be useful for battery backup.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 22, 2009)

I swear to you guys thye typical bambi air compressor used with the aerox mix system is the same type and sized compressor used with a 1 hp (1200 btu) window air conditioner. That size air conditioner brand new sells in the U.S. for $250 tops. How much more could it cost there. The controls are all readily available. That size would put out 4 cfm of air. The air needed for a atomizer putting out 0.021 gallons per minute (equivalent to the size your now using) only uses at 1.5 bar 1.86 Nm^3/hr. A 1 hp compressor puts out 4 cfm constantly. The atomizer uses (1.86 m^3* 35.53 ft^3/m^3) = 66.09 cf per hour. So per second of sprays per nozzle (66.09/60/60)= 0.18 cf. As the small compressor puts out (4 cfm / 60 sec/min)= 0.66 cf/sec 0.66/18 = 3.66. What this clearly indicates is that the atomix is spraying out a great deal less nutrient than you are presently using. I imagine a great deal less. They actually claim that there should n be no drainage of excess fli uids. I imagine they are actually spraying likely around 10 to 20 percent of waht you are spraying through the high pressure misters. By lookking at the single compressor and the double comprssor units they show in their adds it actually looks like the single compressor shown with a single compartment unit is only a 1/2 hp compressor and the double compressor unit is only using two 1/2 hp compressor units. If that is the case they are using some very small output atomizers using very little nutrients or water. Likely they are using 1/4 the nutrients total so there air usage is about 1/3 as much. So (22.23 /60/60)= 0.006 cfs. A single 1/2 hp would put out (2/60) = 0.0333 cfs. So they are likely using a small compressor that would only be s\]using about 18% of the capacity of a half horse compressor. 

The quality of the compressor units they use are catually pretty much bottom line units. Thera re using the same compressors as would be used in home air conditioners and large home refrigeration frezzer units. The next better lines are just made with small commercial refigeration compressors. Even a lot of the home built units are better because the DIY people often use the condensors as air coolers. This would allow for easier and more assured oil removal as well as si upplying cooler air. This is usually only done with the more expensive silent compressors. It is not done woth the tow air copressor units shown in the aeromix advertisements. The commercial refrigeration type compressors have capacitor start motors that allow the comprseeor to start at higher loads than the home refrigeration units. They also generally have a bilt on case top that is finned rather than a smooth welded on top. Not that it matters as the compressors are so cheap they are just scrapped rather than repaired. The small compressors cabn have the hard start comprressor capacitors installed from commercial units. Thet are direct swap for the same size compressors. Or the hard start condensors can be purchased cheaply from Sporlan or Parker or many other refrigeration parts. 

ICS also has what they call there low cost options. They list very fine atomization with very low air volumes starting at 7 liters per minute and at a pressure of only 0.2 bar. Do you suppose atomix would use low cost option atomisers. That would explain larger volumes with the small compressors they show. So many estimations (guesses) and trial and erro without data from manafacturers like aeromix. So mo uch easier to obtain data from american manafacturers. The first thing out of there mouths is not proprietary or secret information.

Alas no manafacturer over there answers emails from over here in a timey fashion anyway, even the nozzle manafacturers. Go figure.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 22, 2009)

Were are you getting your aeromix information. Any thing that comes up with a link to them comes up with error messages and such from here. All I can get is a couple utubes, a growing forum site write up and a single advertisement. Nothing for an actual aeromix site link. It takes quite a while to open any UK site from here. Most just won't open.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 22, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I threw out the 200 micron number because that was size was discuseed earlier in the thread. The mesh presently in the filter is 30 micron and the replacement mesh filter inserts only go down to 16 micron.
> 
> 
> My knowe ledge of nutrients springs out of just reading a lot. My job as an environmental engineers is to remove nutrients. I teach two graduate courses, one in water treatment and the other in waste water treatment plantt design. Other than that I work with aquatic chemistry a lot (fish hatcheries bio filtration) so I am constantly dealing with primary nutrientsir carbonates, heavy metals, pH and dissolved oxygen demands. I also have marine reef aquariums so that gives me more reason to have a small water quality lab in my house. And I am old so I have been at it for a while. I have been growing indoors under lights for 25 years.
> ...


its not really the analaysis of the nutrients that im looking for. i was more concerned with the ratios of how much p to k to n that true aero people are using to get the most of of the system. I dont know for a fact but im just assuming since the uptake and develpoment of the plant is excelerated that possibly the ratios in which these nutes are taken up is different than in traditional hydro. I can tell already just from some tests that i have done that the root developement is more profound than was in my LP aero pods. So this lead me to believe that they were probably in need of more p and k. So than i looked at the ratios of what the commercial aero,not the hydro stores, but scientists were using in there food crops with true high pressure aero. and i saw that all there mixes were higher in p and k compared to lets say GH nutes. the scientists ratios were something like 10-10-40 .well that isnt anything close for a mix using GH at normal rates. I can mix the GH using the 3 part series to get to almost the same 10-10-40 but i dont know if that 10-10-40 is specific to the test subjects. that ratio they give is for herbs.but i will add that every formula they give always has almost a 1-1-3 to 4 ratio. thats NPK. so like i said im just assuming that true mist has some different ratio demands but abviously i cant find any plant specifics for these types of test subjects. Any way with a little trial and error im getting things dialed in and i am very amazed at what im seeing.

Now as to the atomix info i obtained that from thier website before it went down when i was trying to make up my mind which way to go high pressure water or compressed air atomizing. unfortunatly i didnt save the info because i had no idea atomix would go under. they had all the compressors on thier web site and how many nozzels they could run and i also went to bambis website and looked up the same models and specs. when you start talking about air compressors on ac units to tell you the truth im lost because i dont know much about that field but i will definatly do some studing and see if what your saying is something i could do. i wont be building one for a while cause i got my hands full dealing with what i got and like i said im very impressed so far. 

i know from reading that the atomix will deliver a better average mean droplet size and quicker than what i have now because i can set my timer to 1 sec and still get droplets that pool a tiny bit on the root hairs. but the root hairs are very fine compared to my LP aero and the laterals are going crazy not just taps dropping to the floor ,so i know its not as good as it could be but it sure is a step up from what i m use to seeing. time will tell. i

if you can do the compressor thing id definetly go the air atomizing way but i dont think the air atomizing way would work in the tubes because they need air space to disperse properly. if you havent seen the guys diaries on uk420 using the atomix for 4 or 5 complete runs check it out you will find alot of info there.

Oh i forgot to add im not using canna. i only wanted to use canna because thats what the guys were using in thier atomix machines and thats what atomizer said works for him. If the GH doesnt work i might try the canna just because it worked with those guys. there is no real info on this anywhere i can find because very very few people have or can run these systems. A guy has to figure the stuff out on his own im finding out. and alot of people i think are put off with the complication of these systems. which i can understand. if your not into these types of things its not alot of fun but i enjoy the engineering nand building as much as the end result.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 22, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I think it`d definitely be worth a go if you could get away with a noisey (aka cheap) compressor, i`m not in the coverted position of living miles from anywhere unfortunately
> From the atomix info, they recommended a PH of 5.8 and advocate using a drain to waste type nutrient. Their theory was the roots only get one shot to grab what they need so everything has to be available in the mist.
> I`m not sure how accurate that is though as most dtw systems use some kind of media which will increase the contact time.
> I bought some 12vdc solenoids with 15mm pushfit connections for the vertical project today, i figured they`d be useful for battery backup.


Looks like a good find. can they handle the pressure. Love the pushfit. id never build anything again without them. wish i would have learned that long ago. Cant wait to get my backup sytem up also. hopefully in a couple more weeks ill have all the pieces.

i use to love to go to junk yards and find things like fans and relay controls and pumps. they would sell the stuff to me by the pound. ive made almost every electrical and electronis thing i have from surplus or stuff from junk yards. Controllers people pay hundreds of dollars for can be made with surplus electronics for a fraction of the cost. Of course electrical and electronis is my hobby so its easy for me.

I m pretty sure that the def i thought i was seeing was just to lite on the ec level. a couple more tests yet to confirm.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 23, 2009)

My anticipated plan is to try out three cubes 3' x 3' x 3' as my most typical arrangement has been for rooms that are 3" by 9", with 3" by 5" in budding tubes and 4 foot devoted to cloning and short term vegging., ans a few back up/mother plants. The partition wall is readily removable though. The air conditioner and dehumidifier evaporators are up at ceiling level so they will not matter. I have a thermal welder so I figured on just a 3 ' x 6' long with one interior partition, and a single 3' cube. Ill use acrylic plastic in sections for the tops. While the 3" height will probably be like by the root mass it is really more of a fact that the older I get the less I like to bend i over and 3' 6" is a comfortableheight (raised floor under grow room for drains).

I will just line plywood cubes with Fiber Reinforced PVC panels (FRP) that I will thermal weld. A 4' by 8' panel is only $25 so the cost will be fairly low. I plan to just drain to waste so hopefully I can dial in the needs of the plants in a few cycles. Mixing my own nutrients keeps costs low enough though that the root health of proper spraying is more important than waste costs. 

The nutrients would be gravity fed to the atomizers so the costs of the intermittantly run compressor will be less than I am presently paying for continously run pumps. I am really anxious to see just how little nutrient volume will be needed. So atomix is no longer? The only diaries on the UK420msite I have seen so far have stopped before any crop was compltete, and it was t that time only one unit owned by a thread submiter. It was a thread that was at least two or three years old. I did not try to register on the site so as to use the erearch engine. I only assume that is required to use the search engine as that is most forums typical in the US.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 23, 2009)

The only bad thing about a drain to waste system is going to be what to do with all the Conductivity and pH controllers I have. Bunch of Great Lakes Industry Analysers, Oakton, and many cooling tower controllers. They automate daily pH and conductivity adjustments real well on nutrient recirculation systems. Plus it is nice to have system with good LED screens for monitoring. Data storage and computer connections for remote moniitoring and alarms, and email alarm notification. It will be better to not need so much of it though. I even have a bunch of industrial bubble level indicators with relays for water top off and alarms. It is amazing what can be bought used and surplus. Having no wife around to "help" control my spending makes a difference though. Three marriages was enough.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 23, 2009)

TF, the solenoids are WRAS approved 0.2 - 10bar (3-150psi), they draw 5.8w or around 0.5A
There was never much info around on the atomix but now the websites are gone theres even less. The nozzles are definitely the syphon type with an internal mixing chamber though. The atomix initially used a small Jun-Air compressor before they switched to using the bambi. If you sort out a cheap quiet compressor that can run a couple of nozzles you`ll have a winner  
If i have it right, g-love pulled 37oz from 4 ladies using a 600w light..and he had a few issues along the way


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 23, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> TF, the solenoids are WRAS approved 0.2 - 10bar (3-150psi), they draw 5.8w or around 0.5A
> There was never much info around on the atomix but now the websites are gone theres even less. The nozzles are definitely the syphon type with an internal mixing chamber though. The atomix initially used a small Jun-Air compressor before they switched to using the bambi. If you sort out a cheap quiet compressor that can run a couple of nozzles you`ll have a winner
> If i have it right, g-love pulled 37oz from 4 ladies using a 600w light..and he had a few issues along the way


Well when i said the atomix nozzels were external mix syphon feed in an earlier post i was baseing my info on the link ill provide that says that internal mix nozzels use pressure setups and arent syphon feed, where as external uses syphon feed or gravity. External doesnt really mean outside the nozzel from what i can gather. the air and liquid both flow thru the nozzel but are mixed as they exit the nozzel. internal means the liquid and air mix inside the nozzel before exiting. Im no expert but take a look at the link they have alot of info in that pdf

http://s7d5.scene7.com/s7ondemand/brochure/flash_brochure.jsp?company=SprayingSystems&sku=6_f_cat70us&config=SprayingSystems/SSCo&el=normal

when ever i try to build one of these things i think ill try and modify a regular compress to just remove all the contaminants instead of buying one of those expense medical grade silent type. or maybe i can even learn enough to use a ac compressor like fatman says. the nice thing about air you could pipe it along way even from another building to take care of the noise issue. and the nozzels are vertualy silent from what g-love said. i imagine it sounds similarly to my current setup. its just a pisst you can barely hear.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 23, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> My anticipated plan is to try out three cubes 3' x 3' x 3' as my most typical arrangement has been for rooms that are 3" by 9", with 3" by 5" in budding tubes and 4 foot devoted to cloning and short term vegging., ans a few back up/mother plants. The partition wall is readily removable though. The air conditioner and dehumidifier evaporators are up at ceiling level so they will not matter. I have a thermal welder so I figured on just a 3 ' x 6' long with one interior partition, and a single 3' cube. Ill use acrylic plastic in sections for the tops. While the 3" height will probably be like by the root mass it is really more of a fact that the older I get the less I like to bend i over and 3' 6" is a comfortableheight (raised floor under grow room for drains).
> 
> I will just line plywood cubes with Fiber Reinforced PVC panels (FRP) that I will thermal weld. A 4' by 8' panel is only $25 so the cost will be fairly low. I plan to just drain to waste so hopefully I can dial in the needs of the plants in a few cycles. Mixing my own nutrients keeps costs low enough though that the root health of proper spraying is more important than waste costs.
> 
> The nutrients would be gravity fed to the atomizers so the costs of the intermittantly run compressor will be less than I am presently paying for continously run pumps. I am really anxious to see just how little nutrient volume will be needed. So atomix is no longer? The only diaries on the UK420msite I have seen so far have stopped before any crop was compltete, and it was t that time only one unit owned by a thread submiter. It was a thread that was at least two or three years old. I did not try to register on the site so as to use the erearch engine. I only assume that is required to use the search engine as that is most forums typical in the US.


I think you have to register but im not sure. but if you do get to their search engine just go to the user search function and search for posts by g-love. he did 4-5 documented runs from start to finish. he had some issues but his root development pics will convince almost anyone of the potential these types of systems have. he states he only misted 2 sec every 2 minutes or so. he did vary it sometimes and you can tell from reading his posts that he was just going by the seat of his pants because its like i said this info doesnt really exist so a person has to learn as you go. there are also some other diaries of other users but there not as comprehensive. the diaries are old. i havent read of anybody recently using one because the company no longer exists and there wasnt to many people who bought them before they went under. the atomix wasnt dtw it recirculated the solution. although it could easily have been used that way from the looks of it.

yea if you can make the chambers you could save some money also. ive found some poly tanks that i think id use for a root chamber. i would just put one plant per chamber similar to this setup only the pods would be twice as big. i like to see the extreme of a plants limits once. i dont care if its more efficient with more plants i dont need the problems associated with numbers as its just a personal hobby with me. Like you i also am old and now i just like to play a little for my own personal satisfaction..


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 23, 2009)

Here they sell locally made poly tanks round, square, and rectangular for about 150 to 1000 gallons for hauling and storing drink water as many people live out side the cities and water is very deep and often full of nasties such as aresnic and huge amounts of iron. Therefore many people buy water and haul itreated water. Most ground water here is also quite hard. Still no email from either ICS or the other atomizer manafacturer. I would just call them but there is a huge time difference between here and the UK.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 23, 2009)

I emailed a uk firm while looking for nozzles and never got any reply so i sent one to the stateside company that supplied them. Lo and behold, the uk firm sent me an email the following day referencing the mail i sent stateside  I can`t understand it myself..its not like their order books are full and they don`t need the business.
Air-assisted and high pressure nozzles have the same potential to grow nice roots, by the same token, it`d be easy to grow some LP aero roots with both too...just run the nozzles 24/7


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 23, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Here they sell locally made poly tanks round, square, and rectangular for about 150 to 1000 gallons for hauling and storing drink water as many people live out side the cities and water is very deep and often full of nasties such as aresnic and huge amounts of iron. Therefore many people buy water and haul itreated water. Most ground water here is also quite hard. Still no email from either ICS or the other atomizer manafacturer. I would just call them but there is a huge time difference between here and the UK.


 if you check the link i gave and go to thier main web page you can actually put the part number in for the nozzel assembly you want and it will give you the price. ive done it before. you have to go thru the pdf and figure out the part numbers and i think you have to input some info(company name etc.) i just made the requested info up and it still gave me the prices.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 23, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I emailed a uk firm while looking for nozzles and never got any reply so i sent one to the stateside company that supplied them. Lo and behold, the uk firm sent me an email the following day referencing the mail i sent stateside  I can`t understand it myself..its not like their order books are full and they don`t need the business.
> Air-assisted and high pressure nozzles have the same potential to grow nice roots, by the same token, it`d be easy to grow some LP aero roots with both too...just run the nozzles 24/7


I want the short internoda spaces only found with good oxygen in the root areas. That has not come that well fron mdeium prseeure in aero tubes, and it seem a waster of time to just carry that over to cubicles. High pressure would require multiple diagrapm pumps and tanks. I just think that for me the air atomizers if obtainable at a fair price would be a better choice and more economical. I have more than adequate equipment/tools to put together silent aircompressors for a lot cheaper than retail prices. Plus the air can be used with metal without harm and no metal is need for gravity feed nutrients to the atomizer. Plasic solenoids are fairly reasonably prices for low pressure applications, excepting I might need to drop down to using low voltage soenoids to be really economicall with the use of many seperately controlled misters. I definitely do not believe all the chambers with plants at different stages are going to grow best with just one timing cycle.

I was checking a warehouse store here locally which is owned by Walmart. They have compressors tank assemblies with nice controls and tanks but standard type compressors that sell cheap enough I can just throw away the compressor and replace it with a silent compressor and add air cooling and a huge oil filtering cannister as used in the dental compressors and stll spend less than $500 each for a unit for a single chamber or about $700 for a unit to handle tup to four chambers. I can get used commercail refrigeration compressors from local refrigeration men for about the same cost as the home arir conditiner compressors. Plus I have a local refrigeration man that charges my chiilers and modifed ai conditioners with freon that is a smoker so that would lower the costs even more. I did notice the U.S. Delavan atomizers Dealers are just selling atomizers made in the UK. They do not have a U.S. manfacturer.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 23, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I emailed a uk firm while looking for nozzles and never got any reply so i sent one to the stateside company that supplied them. Lo and behold, the uk firm sent me an email the following day referencing the mail i sent stateside  I can`t understand it myself..its not like their order books are full and they don`t need the business.
> Air-assisted and high pressure nozzles have the same potential to grow nice roots, by the same token, it`d be easy to grow some LP aero roots with both too...just run the nozzles 24/7


yea it sucks when these people wont answer their emails. A person does wonder how they stay in business. If i really want to know something and they dont answer i just call.

Yea im finding out that its a fine line between getting the tiny hairs or just smooth hydro roots. ive been tinkering with the misting settings a little trying to get it right but i wanted to make sure i had the ec level right first so i could notice if there was a difference. im at 1ec and things are starting to finally look normal. i re read some of the atomix ec levels they were using and even in the later stages they were only at 1ec. 

the nozzels i have can really fill those chambers fast, anything over 2 sec on and things get wet. so im playing with the off times. g-love said that he tryed to have his settings so that between cycles there wouldnt be droplets pooling on the roots. in this system thats around 5 minutes off time. which seems like alot compared to the atomix settings they were running at 2 sec every 70 sec. ive never seen any distress even at 10 minutes off time but im not wanting to push it.

One thing that amazes me is how fast you can see results when you change something for the better or worse. within 1-2 hours its apparent youve either made the right choice or not. so its going to be a definate learning curve.

have you found any real differences in varying the misting cycles?


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 23, 2009)

I tend to leave the misting pulse timing alone as much as possible and just vary the pause time. 
My reasoning is the misting duration will be directly linked to the pause duration.. making the roots even slightly wetter (relatively)will mean they can handle a much longer pause. Altering the mist timing affects two variables, messing with the pause timing only really affects one. Thats my take on it anyway 

g-love noticed the mist was hanging around in the chamber for over 3 minutes (which does suggest sub 5 um droplets) and promptly increased the pause timing to good effect.
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 23, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I tend to leave the misting pulse timing alone as much as possible and just vary the pause time.
> My reasoning is the misting duration will be directly linked to the pause duration.. making the roots even slightly wetter (relatively)will mean they can handle a much longer pause. Altering the mist timing affects two variables, messing with the pause timing only really affects one. Thats my take on it anyway
> 
> g-love noticed the mist was hanging around in the chamber for over 3 minutes (which does suggest sub 5 um droplets) and promptly increased the pause timing to good effect.


Yea that sounds like some good advice. I think ill leave the on setting at 2sec and leave the pause at 4 minutes. It seems to me so far that the increased demands of a little one might dictate things to be a little wetter.

Its really hard to see whats hanging around in those chambers because its hard to see the mist unless the light is just right going thru the access holes. ive noticed also that the roots are very fragile at this stage so i dont lift the net pots out which would give me a better look at how the mist is actually hanging around. Im afraid though by the time the roots are tough enough theyll probably be to many of them and i wont be able to get the net pot out. 
Oh well this is just a test run now anyway.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 24, 2009)

Hey atomizer

Do they look like HP aero roots to you.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 24, 2009)

Hi TF
They look good to me, healthy and white. Pic two has some nice detail of the fine root hairs up near the pot. 
How old are they?


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 24, 2009)

5 days. even with all the issues im having trying to get ec levels right im seeing 3/4 inch vertical every 24 hrs. it really is amazing so far. 

Another thing im noticing different from LP aero ,the roots arent just coiling around the bottom of the chamber. they hit the bottom but then kind of just start developing laterals instead of just circling around the chamber floor.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 24, 2009)

If the roots are on the floor i`d be tempted to try a 1 sec/2 min cycle for a while. You deliver the same amount of nutes as the 2 sec/4 min cycle. If its a step in the right direction you should notice the difference within a day or so.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 25, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> If the roots are on the floor i`d be tempted to try a 1 sec/2 min cycle for a while. You deliver the same amount of nutes as the 2 sec/4 min cycle. If its a step in the right direction you should notice the difference within a day or so.


Well i did a dumb thing yesterday. When i went to snap the pics of the roots i turned of the valve to that pod so the mist wouldnt come on and splash my camera while i had it stuck thru the access hole. I have white plastic over the tops of the pod to shield them from the heat. while i forgot to turn the valve on to that pod and left and went home. this morning i go back to check how things are doing and as soon as i walk in i notice the fan leaves on that one are drooping. they werent completly limp just drooping. i didnt get to alarmed i just thought oh thier getting to much mist im going to have to cut back. so i messed around with other things for about 20 minutes then thought let me look and see how wet that one really is getting. i look thru the access hole and see no moisture on the roots and im like WTF are the misters plugged. so i wait for the next mist cycle and no mist. now im like how can this be. so i rip the white plasic off the top to see if something happened to the line running to that pod and then i see the closed valve. 

my first reaction after seeing the vavle was how can this thing even be alive anymore. it had been 12 hrs approx. since the valve was turned off. im not bullshitting you the only thing that was drooping was the fans and they werent completly limp even. the top was still standing tall although it hadnt put on any new material.

Well this tells me that the roots must have developed in the net pot somewhat extensively to have enough moisture to hang on like that. there is approx. 2.25 gallon of hydroton in each 10 inch net pot. also i think that amount of hydroton holds alot of water and contributed alot to it being able to survive. 

Anyway im not sure if the roots are going to die off some but they still look white and after an hour of misting the fans picked back up.

Ive tryed the 1 sec mist with my other timer off the clone machine and it seems like with one second nothing really reaches the nozzels because of the tubing distances from the manifold to the pods. A weak point when designing tree pods. Its also been on a 2sec 2 minutes for the last 30 hours. i had it on the 2sec 4minute but my humidity in the room was so low it was taking its toll on them so i cut it to 2sec 2minutes. which helped the leaf roll. Ive since added a humidifier so i might go back to the 2sec 4 minute. they definately arent starving for misture if a 9" can go 12 hrs without anything. Another thing that i think helped alot is the one that i forgot to turn the valve back onto was sitting right next to the humidifier and was getting a good breeze of humid air constantly.

Stupid mistake but i can learn something from it. Once they get a little bigger im going to try and coax some finer root hairs out of them. Also now i have the nozzels pointed towards the net pot up high. Im going to turn them silightly more down and away from the net pots so that they fire into the void more. Why im thinking this is because the finest root hair develpoment now is just below the net pot where very little direct misting is taking place because the nozzels are firing to the tops of the net pots now. i had them turned like this because when i put them into the nets there wasnt any roots showing out of the pots and i wanted to make sure to keep the hydroton wet.

I should know in 24 hrs if some of those roots will die off from not being misted. if they do ill cut the dieing ones off as its still little enough to do that with. Do you think theyll die off.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 25, 2009)

Good thing you noticed in time, it goes to show that even a little moisture can go a long long way. 
Maybe you should make a big bold sign that says "Don`t forget to turn the mist back on!" and put it somewhere you can`t miss it  The roots should bounce back pretty quick, i`d leave them be for now and see how they look in 24hrs.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 25, 2009)

Yea thats what ill do, wait and see if the roots will recover fully. thats the last thing i do when i leave is listen for a mist cycle, unfortunately that didnt help cause i heard the mist cycle for the other pods. once the tree gets bigger the white plastic will come off cause the tree will shade the pod completely then ill be able to see the valves and hopefully would notice if i had turned one of them off. better advice would probably be put down the pipe.


----------



## hairpulledout (Oct 25, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> Yea thats what ill do, wait and see if the roots will recover fully. thats the last thing i do when i leave is listen for a mist cycle, unfortunately that didnt help cause i heard the mist cycle for the other pods. once the tree gets bigger the white plastic will come off cause the tree will shade the pod completely then ill be able to see the valves and hopefully would notice if i had turned one of them off. better advice would probably be put down the pipe.


Howdy, Cool thread. I'm doing aeroponics myself for my first indoor grow. I'm having excellent results, and I'm roughly 3 weeks into flowering, with another set in veg. I am also building a 4 x 5 gal aero set-up for my next grow. I'll keep watching.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 25, 2009)

hairpulledout

Glad you stopped by. The very first indoor i ever did also was aero. its hard to change when you start with aero. Good luck.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 26, 2009)

The U.S. distributor for Delavan/ICS finally answered my email. First thing he started talking about how well their AL product line would work at $300 to $800 per atomizer. Then finally he said "With a gravity feed nozzle the "ON" / "OFF" would be tuff to control and proably not work unless you use a shut off valve on the nozzle." Cute as I had specifically stated a solenoid valve would be used on both air and fluid inlets. Duh! He stated $175 for the stainless steel atomizer (SN model). He did not give a price as I asked for the brass bodied with stainless steel guts etc. He also did not supply any info on the rated droplet micron size or what percentage at what size. So I sent back a reply for more info. The U.S. supplier is in North Carolina. At $175 each that could add up quick. That model has atomizers anywhere in the range from 1.2 L/h to 10 L/h so I could cut back to tow atomizers per cube as in the commercial units. I would expect that to limit the plants down below the 4 per square foot I wanted to go with. I had hoped for a tighter SOG system with more atomizers, but $175 each. That seems to put the high pressure spray system in a better light again. I can make compressors and cubes well enough, but I do not have a capacity to make atomizers. Wow, the "cheap ones" are $175 each. That would mean with compressor etc, etc, etc a cost of about $1300 per cube with four atomizers or about $900 with two atomizers.


----------



## Treeth (Oct 26, 2009)

nice. I just sent out an inquiry today. 
I asked about the 30, the 60, and the sn as well... 
175 is a great price. Waaay better than the 600 I was quoted for a 90. 
I was gonna ask if you ever got a quote...

I'm thinking two opposing nozzles, 4 square foot table, and 8 plants per square foot for my sog density. 

You're out of luck looking for sauter-mean diameter ratings for these nozzles Atomizer,
Apparently the testing procedure is too expensive to do for _every_ nozzle... 

However the SN and the AL line are going to be doing sub 50 particles quite regularly, they are the lowest flow highest atomization so-says-delavan. 

oh and, its just
-A- US distributor which is in NC...


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 26, 2009)

I was just think 4 plants per square foot and two nozzles. I am thinking with SOGs the root mass will be small enough in diameter for good effective coverage, but at the cost involved it is a pretty large cost fo experimentation. I did talk to a friend who has a tattoo parlp or that has used DIY silent air comprseeors for over 10 t years and says he gets 3 to 4 years out of one without ever even adding oil and that he uses cooling fins to reduce the air temp and fairly small filters. The department of health inspects him religously and have no qualms with the air compressors. His run more than one would run powering a dozen atomizers. Hpopefully the guy doesn't jack me around about atomization droplet size. If he does not have the information he need only say so. I have no intent on spenf ding more than the $175 each and I hope I can get him to drop that some. They are only stainless steel not a precious metal. I would think there would be some american made atomizers that are comparable but nothing seems to want to pop up on the search engines. European merchandice is pretty pricey at this time. Or the American dollar is just pretty close to worthless.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 26, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Good thing you noticed in time, it goes to show that even a little moisture can go a long long way.
> Maybe you should make a big bold sign that says "Don`t forget to turn the mist back on!" and put it somewhere you can`t miss it  The roots should bounce back pretty quick, i`d leave them be for now and see how they look in 24hrs.


well you can see that the misters off for 12 hrs did cause some damage but i think it will recover without any surgery. what do you think? before and after pics


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 26, 2009)

Fatman
Yea thats about the range i got quoted for when i enquired about 6 months ago. not from that company but for an air atomizing nozzel similar to those. I dont think thats just to bad at 175 if it can be controled properly and will yield the 50 micron droplet size or less. Hell i spent 300 bucks just on John Guest fittings for this system. That does include a few extra of each fitting but the little stuff can add up. pump 200, filters 100, pressure switches 150, pressure gauge 70. accumlator tank 200, tubing 60, selenoid 40. and thats just the main stuff theres always little shit.

If you can get by with two nozzels in each rig that doesnt sound to bad especially since you can do the compressor thing you were talking about.

When i type in air atomizing nozzels the first three that pop up under google seem to be US companies selling industrial air atomizing nozzels which i believe are the same as those UK ones your looking at. although like i said the price probably isnt any cheaper.

I dont think its really an experiment either if you did build one, cause its going to work one way or another. might take some tweaking but imho it will generate better roots than any LP aero would.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 26, 2009)

Hi TF
They dont look too bad considering they were in the desert for half a day  
I`ve been pretty thrifty with component cost and the basics still came to over $500. When you buy a bit here and a bit there you lose track of the overall cost 

Hi Treeth
I guess even if they have the droplet info it won`t be worth very much unless your root chamber matches the conditions used in the laboratory test


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 26, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> Fatman
> Yea thats about the range i got quoted for when i enquired about 6 months ago. not from that company but for an air atomizing nozzel similar to those. I dont think thats just to bad at 175 if it can be controled properly and will yield the 50 micron droplet size or less. Hell i spent 300 bucks just on John Guest fittings for this system. That does include a few extra of each fitting but the little stuff can add up. pump 200, filters 100, pressure switches 150, pressure gauge 70. accumlator tank 200, tubing 60, selenoid 40. and thats just the main stuff theres always little shit.
> 
> If you can get by with two nozzels in each rig that doesnt sound to bad especially since you can do the compressor thing you were talking about.
> ...


 I have found a couple U.S. companies with pretty extensive lists of atomizers but I olny just today sent them email inquiries. I think I am just getting to old as I can not get over the prices for many items anymore. I keep getting these flash backs to my teens and early 20's when gasoline was 20 to 25 cents per gallon and bread was four loaves for a dollar. Now one can not buy a pachage of gum for any less than a dollar a gallon. I bough t for all my youth an my 20's for 5 cents per package. Of course we smoked seedy Mexican, Panamanian and Columbian then for $15 to $20 an ounce.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 27, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF
> They dont look too bad considering they were in the desert for half a day
> I`ve been pretty thrifty with component cost and the basics still came to over $500. When you buy a bit here and a bit there you lose track of the overall cost
> 
> ...


i started out keeping track but when i went over my budget i stopped cause it just caused me stress




. i dont mind spending money on my hobby but if things are tight then it does poke a little. 
yea i love to buy alittle here and a little there when i have the time also but on this one i was under the gun.

Im definately going to get my backup battery pump rigged up in the next 2 weeks. I had a remote switch shut the power off for what reason i dont know.(i suppose since its RF feq something triggered it) anyway it killed the power for about an hour before i could get there. so i figure they sat again this time all of them for about 45 minutes without misting. i can see no damage from it but it sure as the hell cant be doing them any good. i just need a couple items which i should be able to get in the next couple weeks for the backup system. im not expecting the world from this test run.

I noticed that the roots dont follow the the normal path like in LP aero. these dont go straight for the drain. some of the roots are actually starting to go straight up the chamber wall. its kind of strange. i envision them coming out my access ports.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 27, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I have found a couple U.S. companies with pretty extensive lists of atomizers but I olny just today sent them email inquiries. I think I am just getting to old as I can not get over the prices for many items anymore. I keep getting these flash backs to my teens and early 20's when gasoline was 20 to 25 cents per gallon and bread was four loaves for a dollar. Now one can not buy a pachage of gum for any less than a dollar a gallon. I bough t for all my youth an my 20's for 5 cents per package. Of course we smoked seedy Mexican, Panamanian and Columbian then for $15 to $20 an ounce.


Oh the good old days i remember so well. columbian gold $35 an O. yea the shit had seeds but it had some character too.

It might take a few days to get emails back but most of the US comp did reply or direct me to there rep in my area.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 27, 2009)

The roots will fill from the bottom up, theres no real water flow for them to follow into the drain like LP. I guess the roots will do slightly different things in different sized/shaped containers. 
I spent a little more hard earned today, a 30m (100ft) coil of 15mm PEX for the manifolds and a new footpump to precharge the accumulators and see if they leak pressure. A bike pump would take me a month of sundays  I meant to ask what you precharged your tank to..i guess its around 73psi?
I only have to worry about a glitch taking out the RCB (manual reset) that supplies power to my garden shed. Its sited next to the greenhouse about 70ft from the house. Battery backup is a good plan for power outages and glitches.
It sounds like everyone on the thread is getting on in years, i remember a time you could buy a single washer,nut or bolt from a hardware store and the guy behind the counter knew everything about what he was selling


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 27, 2009)

I have a hoarded 6 pack of Coca Cola in little galss bottles from the !950's. It sits on a shelf above my desk. I every once in a while just look at it and sigh. I laso have one bottle each of root beer, Nehi Grape and Nehi orange in small glass bottles. And my 1961 Edition Lionel Train set cars sit on the shelf. But then I always look at my computer screen and return to the present. However, once a year just before Christmas I set up the complete set up with village buildings, trees, street lights, train station, tunnel etc. The locomotive engine even smokes as it has a spot to add drops of oil. It gets taken down right after the New Year.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 27, 2009)

i have alot of saftey and security features that ive incuded in the room and these are nice but if the power goes out even for a moment some of them need to be reset manually. example i have it so if the temp goes above a certain set level ( about 7 degrees above normal)the lights will turn off and not come back on unless i reset them. (This is in case the cooling system fails the lights wont toast everything. With lights out things can go a long time without cooling)

I have a remote temp sensor that actually is what let me know that something was wrong when the RF remote switch tripped (killing all the power). I saw the temps dropping and i knew something was amiss.

I use to have a tiny float in a 1 inch piece of PVC and then i had one of my LP aero misters on the same cycle as the system which would put mist into the top of the PVC and i controled the drain of the 1 inch piece of PVC with a needle valve so that the float always stayed up(closing the switch contacts) unless the misting stopped, then the water in the tube would go down slowly thus causing the float to go down and open the contacts which triggered an alarm. so it would tell me if anything interrupted the misting cycle.(pump failure, acc tank failure, selenoid failure, piping blowout etc.) It worked great, but that type of safety feature wont work with these tiny amounts of output nozzels as its not enough to keep a float up. Its a great design though for LP aero.

I have an idea of how to do it with this system but have not got around to it yet. Im going to take a moisture sensor that detects moisture when pipes break and put that into a chamber. the misting will close the contacts on the moisture sensor as it will always be wet from the misting unless the misting stops then the contacts will open triggering a relay to send an alarm. i think its going to work and the sensor is pretty cheap as these things are used alot to tell people if their pipes have broken or their washing machine is leaking etc.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 27, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I have a hoarded 6 pack of Coca Cola in little galss bottles from the !950's. It sits on a shelf above my desk. I every once in a while just look at it and sigh. I laso have one bottle each of root beer, Nehi Grape and Nehi orange in small glass bottles. And my 1961 Edition Lionel Train set cars sit on the shelf. But then I always look at my computer screen and return to the present. However, once a year just before Christmas I set up the complete set up with village buildings, trees, street lights, train station, tunnel etc. The locomotive engine even smokes as it has a spot to add drops of oil. It gets taken down right after the New Year.


well you must be alittle older than me. that would explain the $15 to $20 columbian though. since in my age group it was 35-40.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 27, 2009)

Yepper, four finger bags was the purchase goal back then. Back during the days of orange barrels, Mr. Natural blotter, window pane, micro dots, chocolate mescaline, shrooms and a jar of white crosses for $75. And a banana bomb pop for 10 cents from the ice cream man in his Jeep with a dry ice cooler in the back. If you were feeling rich you bought a pint of ice cream for 25 cents and ate it with the flat wooden spoon. 5 cents for a candy bar. Muscle cars!!!!!!!


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 27, 2009)

Sounds like you have every eventually covered, you can never have too many safety features or gadgets..especially gadgets 
I don`t have enough yet but i can tell when the pipework downstream from the solenoid pressurizes during a misting pulse, the orange pins on the adv`s are pushed outwards under the pressure and have enough travel to operate a lever style microswitch. If each adv has a microswitch and a check valve, it can indentify individual blocked or partially blocked nozzle assemblies as the pressure would drop slower than normal or wouldnt drop at all.
A display with a led representing each nozzle position, the leds would go out slower or not at all with any blocked or partially blocked nozzles. It does add the cost of 16 JG check valves and 16 microswitches in my case but i think its worthwhile with no need to check 40 nozzles unnecessarily. I seriously doubt any growshops stock a nozzle blockage detector


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 27, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Yepper, four finger bags was the purchase goal back then. Back during the days of orange barrels, Mr. Natural blotter, window pane, micro dots, chocolate mescaline, shrooms and a jar of white crosses for $75. And a banana bomb pop for 10 cents from the ice cream man in his Jeep with a dry ice cooler in the back. If you were feeling rich you bought a pint of ice cream for 25 cents and ate it with the flat wooden spoon. 5 cents for a candy bar. Muscle cars!!!!!!!


you never hear that phrase anymore "four fingered bags" thats from a different age


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 27, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Sounds like you have every eventually covered, you can never have too many safety features or gadgets..especially gadgets
> I don`t have enough yet but i can tell when the pipework downstream from the solenoid pressurizes during a misting pulse, the orange pins on the adv`s are pushed outwards under the pressure and have enough travel to operate a lever style microswitch. If each adv has a microswitch and a check valve, it can indentify individual blocked or partially blocked nozzle assemblies as the pressure would drop slower than normal or wouldnt drop at all.
> A display with a led representing each nozzle position, the leds would go out slower or not at all with any blocked or partially blocked nozzles. It does add the cost of 16 JG check valves and 16 microswitches in my case but i think its worthwhile with no need to check 40 nozzles unnecessarily. I seriously doubt any growshops stock a nozzle blockage detector


Id like to see the look on the hydro store face when you asked for a nozzel blockage detector.

i never thought there would be enough travel to trip a microswitch. plus trying to mount them and align them. wouldnt thatbe hard to get everything just right. the leds sound great. im sure with that many nozzels it would be a pain trying to check them all.
I cant even really tell if mine are working unless i open the selenoid up and stick my hand under each one. and i think i mentioned this before but some of these nozzels just seem to perform better right out of the bag. i thought maybe it had something to do with where they were located in my system but i moved one and it didnt make any difference. unless some of them got something stuck in them from setup. ive blown thru some but you cant tell anything cause you cant even hardly blow thru a new one the orifice is to tiny. thats why i got 4 of them i think even one could fill the chamber if need be. im definately going to try some of the .04oz/sec ones and see what the difference would be.

the thing is all the other type of nozzels i find that id like to try arent designed the same as hydro atomizing nozzels with the little impingment protruding. the others work on the principle of spraying solution thru a tiny orifice and most of them i think would have problems clogging quick in my system. the hydr atomizing nozzels have little vortex channels in the nozzel that speed up the velocity as the solution rushes to the orifice. ive emailed manufactures about the use of the other types and they all say to use Ro water to avoid cloggs. I do use Ro water but after you add the nutes its along way from 0ppm RO water. Most of the tiny orifice nozzels seem to be geared toward cooling and humidification or reptile cooling where just RO water could be used or should be used in the case of reptiles. I dont know i guess the only way to really know is to try some. I guess yours work on that principle and you say they dont clogg but yours seem to be designed differently than just the tiny single regular nozzel like tefons nozzels.

i noticed from looking at the bio websites aero units that they have alot of nozzels in thier chambers and have them pretty close together. from looking at the pics it would seem to me with there 3 minute off 3 sec on fixed timers that go with them units that things would be getting wet. I guess not though or they wouldnt sell them that way.


----------



## Treeth (Oct 27, 2009)

Yo Fatman,
would you mind forwarding me that email from _your_ delavan distributor... ? ( or at least the details )
-I'm content paying 175 for an SN example, my distributor isn't close to that price.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 27, 2009)

> i never thought there would be enough travel to trip a microswitch. plus trying to mount them and align them. wouldnt thatbe hard to get everything just right. the leds sound great. im sure with that many nozzels it would be a pain trying to check them all.


The orange pin protrudes about 4mm under pressure. Mounting a switch isn`t too bad as the nozzles are a fair way from the base fitting with all the bits and pieces. The microswitch can be mounted on some plastic angle fixed to the main supply pipework above the nozzle and adjusted so the switch lever rests against the pin. I`ll have 16 adv`s feeding 40 nozzles so that should make it a little easier.


----------



## LiquidLumen (Oct 27, 2009)

This is some pretty high tech stuff, and I am impressed with those of you who are willing to put the time and effort into taking aeroponics to the next level. I'm wondering if anyone is interested in doing a complete breakdown of all the components needed to build one of these high pressure aero systems, and can provide production numbers as well. I'm interested because I use LP aero and have considered experimenting with HP aero, but it just seems so expensive and complicated compared to LP. I'm definitely all about investing the proper amount of time/effort/money if it pays off in the long run, but it's hard to imagine getting much better results than what I've seen with a properly maintained LP system. So, let's start off with what I know can be produced with a 600W light in a 5x5x10 room running CO2 at 1500 PPM using a home made LP Aero system with Canna nutes and running on a 15 minute on/15 minute off pump cycle. 

Cost of components: 

1 1000GPH pump....$70
2 Tote reservoirs....$35
40 ez clone misters....$25
5 Micron Filter from Home Depot...$25
Tubing/PVC....$10
2 air pumps + 2 air stones to oxygenate the water build up in bottom of rez....$40
15 minute interval timer from walmart...$10

Total Cost of complete aeroponic system...$215

Production capabilities: With CO2 injection, starting from clones of an indica-dominant strain, going into12/12 immediately after root development, with 20 plants:

Average production....18 OZ 

Maintenence:

Filter replacement: Requires replacing about once per month @ $8 per filter. 
Pump replacement: Hydrofarm models come with 1 year warranty, and they usually last longer than that. 
Water: Never replace water, simply refill and check pH/ppm on a daily basis. 
Misters: Never clog as long as filter is replaced once per month. 

Build time: 2 hours. 

So, in the end, you can produce a system in a couple of hours, for around 200 bucks, that requires very little daily maintenence or replacement parts, and can produce close to an ouce per plant in a SOG style set up. 

Now let's hear some numbers from other HP or LP aero set ups.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 28, 2009)

Treeth said:


> Yo Fatman,
> would you mind forwarding me that email from _your_ delavan distributor... ? ( or at least the details )
> -I'm content paying 175 for an SN example, my distributor isn't close to that price.


*****,
I'm located in Charlotte NC. The manufacture of these nozzles is located in Widnes United Kingdom. 

With a gravity feed nozzle the "ON" / "OFF" would be tuff to control and proably not work unless you use a shut off valve on the nozzle. This is an option in our AL product line. There are a variety of control and sprays with this product line. Unfortunately, they are not cheap with a price range of $300 to $800 per nozzle. The siphon nozzle in Stainless Steel is priced at $175 ea.

Delavan Spray Technologies
Goodrich Corporation

"Swoope, Stephen" <[email protected]>


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 28, 2009)

McDonnel and Miller (by ITT) makes flow switches small enough and precise enough. I use larger ones to shut down my lights if the cooling water flow to them becomes to little or stops. Mine are larger and readily buyable from Ebay so the price was cheaper. They are really just switch that are selaed with a small satinless steel padddle that protruded in to the water passage way. They are adjustable and simply activate a relays switch.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 28, 2009)

LiquidLumen said:


> This is some pretty high tech stuff, and I am impressed with those of you who are willing to put the time and effort into taking aeroponics to the next level. I'm wondering if anyone is interested in doing a complete breakdown of all the components needed to build one of these high pressure aero systems, and can provide production numbers as well. I'm interested because I use LP aero and have considered experimenting with HP aero, but it just seems so expensive and complicated compared to LP. I'm definitely all about investing the proper amount of time/effort/money if it pays off in the long run, but it's hard to imagine getting much better results than what I've seen with a properly maintained LP system. So, let's start off with what I know can be produced with a 600W light in a 5x5x10 room running CO2 at 1500 PPM using a home made LP Aero system with Canna nutes and running on a 15 minute on/15 minute off pump cycle.
> 
> Cost of components:
> 
> ...


You seem to be trying to high jack this thread. This is really an all together different thread topic. You should perhaps ask a moderator to transfer your post to a new thread under a LP aero heading perhaps. The way it is it is this thread is already covering both HP aero's both pump and air atomized as they are closely parallel. This is not a thread comparing high pressure to low pressure systems so your post is quite a stretch.


----------



## Treeth (Oct 28, 2009)

Huh, I got the impression that;

Delavan made nothing but engineering specifications...
And licensed shops run manufacturing on their cnc machines, 
which is why examples are so expensive- because they are custom made in production runs for you. 

Did you get the impression, Fatman, that Stephen had _inventory_ of these parts?


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 28, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> *****,
> I'm located in Charlotte NC. The manufacture of these nozzles is located in Widnes United Kingdom.
> 
> With a gravity feed nozzle the "ON" / "OFF" would be tuff to control and proably not work unless you use a shut off valve on the nozzle. This is an option in our AL product line. There are a variety of control and sprays with this product line. Unfortunately, they are not cheap with a price range of $300 to $800 per nozzle. The siphon nozzle in Stainless Steel is priced at $175 ea.
> ...


I dont really get this guys email. it sounds like he just wants to sell a nozzel with the shutoff option. i dont see how it can be hard to control on/off, if you have gravity feeding the nozzel and you have a seleniod valve in the line to the nozzel. If you slam the selenoid down its going to turn off the flow stopping the nozzel. you can have the air line on a selenoid and the gravity feed line on a selenoid that work together triggered by the cycle timer. 

the only problem i can see is if the nozzel isnt designed to work with just the head pressure of the gravity feed.( which i think is like approx. 14psi depending on the hieght of the water column but you might have to calculate the head pressure for a given set of parameters), id have to look.

If i build one of these i would use a pressure feed nozzel rather than a siphon or gravity for the solution as well as the air line. i think it gives you the ability to control the atomization better and doesnt really add that much complexity to the system because the pressures needed to drive the pressure feed nozzels is only in the 40-60psi range and thats easy and relatively inexpensive to use that equipment.

Gravity would be nice if a nozzel can be found to work properly that way. if the Atomix siphoned the solution to the nozzel i dont see why gravity shouldnt work.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 28, 2009)

Treeth said:


> Huh, I got the impression that;
> 
> Delavan made nothing but engineering specifications...
> And licensed shops run manufacturing on their cnc machines,
> ...


 
No. 

He is just a distributor for the euro manafactures Delavan in the UK 
I imagine he keeps very little shelf inventory.
He is also a distriburor for Goodrich so I imagine he is just a distributer and actually manafactures nothing.
Just skims what he can as he can.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 28, 2009)

LiquidLumen said:


> This is some pretty high tech stuff, and I am impressed with those of you who are willing to put the time and effort into taking aeroponics to the next level. I'm wondering if anyone is interested in doing a complete breakdown of all the components needed to build one of these high pressure aero systems, and can provide production numbers as well. I'm interested because I use LP aero and have considered experimenting with HP aero, but it just seems so expensive and complicated compared to LP. I'm definitely all about investing the proper amount of time/effort/money if it pays off in the long run, but it's hard to imagine getting much better results than what I've seen with a properly maintained LP system. So, let's start off with what I know can be produced with a 600W light in a 5x5x10 room running CO2 at 1500 PPM using a home made LP Aero system with Canna nutes and running on a 15 minute on/15 minute off pump cycle.
> 
> Cost of components:
> 
> ...


glad you stopped by. therss no doudt that LP aero can turn out the numbers anyone whos run them knows they are real producers and can do it inexpensively. Years ago i ran LP aero trees and i averaged 2 per 1K with a 3 week veg under lower watts so i know the aero can put out some good numbers. i have never run sog which i understand is more productive but i dont like to have numbers. I have never done a HP aero run so i cant tell you the difference yet but that is why im going to try it and see. 

the building and trying are a hobby, so if someones not into that its not going to seem like it would be worth the expense and complication. Although its not that complicated and really not that much more expensive than the LP aero i built. Even though a person can use some tubs and mag drive pumps with EZ clone sprayers and get good results i have never done that.(except for cloners) the reason why is they wouldnt support the large trees and thats all im really interested in working with. Hell Im not even sure HP aero will support large trees but would like to find out.


----------



## fatman7574 (Oct 28, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> I dont really get this guys email. it sounds like he just wants to sell a nozzel with the shutoff option. i dont see how it can be hard to control on/off, if you have gravity feeding the nozzel and you have a seleniod valve in the line to the nozzel. If you slam the selenoid down its going to turn off the flow stopping the nozzel. you can have the air line on a selenoid and the gravity feed line on a selenoid that work together triggered by the cycle timer.
> 
> the only problem i can see is if the nozzel isnt designed to work with just the head pressure of the gravity feed.( which i think is like approx. 14psi depending on the hieght of the water column but you might have to calculate the head pressure for a given set of parameters), id have to look.
> 
> ...


I think he was just trying for the bigger sell. The nozzle type he was trying to sell is at the top of the price range. I think it is just a matter of ethics that convinced him to basicaaly say well yeah the cheaper one would work fine "but" the more expensive one is better as the cheaper one would need a shut off valve. I bet it hurt to write that as it was basically just throwing awaty the chance of a higher priced sell just to not compomise his better ethics. I am all for better business ethics. 

My feelings are also that, "why rent a uhaul moving van simply to return a book to the library." The $175 valve with a couple solenoid valve sounds fine at 1/4 theprice. Even the commercial model used solenoid valves so it is doubt fo ul there valves were no beter than the $175 valve. I don' think there nutrients were pressure fed. Just gravity fed with ato imed solenoid valve. The control available just by changing the head and the air pressures should be pretty good as the spray cone varies alot with the different heads and pressures.


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 28, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> The orange pin protrudes about 4mm under pressure. Mounting a switch isn`t too bad as the nozzles are a fair way from the base fitting with all the bits and pieces. The microswitch can be mounted on some plastic angle fixed to the main supply pipework above the nozzle and adjusted so the switch lever rests against the pin. I`ll have 16 adv`s feeding 40 nozzles so that should make it a little easier.


 forty nozzels what is the size of the vertical.


----------



## bushmang (Oct 28, 2009)

what are the advantages of these hp systems? i just stummbled across this thread and this my first time hearing of this system. how does hp aero compare to Aero/Nft hybrid systems ? any info is appreciated

great looking systems btw. looks awesome. do you have pics of your plants?


----------



## tree farmer (Oct 28, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I think he was just trying for the bigger sell. The nozzle type he was trying to sell is at the top of the price range. I think it is just a matter of ethics that convinced him to basicaaly say well yeah the cheaper one would work fine "but" the more expensive one is better as the cheaper one would need a shut off valve. I bet it hurt to write that as it was basically just throwing awaty the chance of a higher priced sell just to not compomise his better ethics. I am all for better business ethics.
> 
> My feelings are also that, "why rent a uhaul moving van simply to return a book to the library." The $175 valve with a couple solenoid valve sounds fine at 1/4 theprice. Even the commercial model used solenoid valves so it is doubt fo ul there valves were no beter than the $175 valve. I don' think there nutrients were pressure fed. Just gravity fed with ato imed solenoid valve. The control available just by changing the head and the air pressures should be pretty good as the spray cone varies alot with the different heads and pressures.


I checked out utube last night and they have some videos of some air atomizing nozzels. you can see the various spray patterns and they have some flow rates numbers (air&water) on thier videos of some bete nozzels. they are interesting as you can see how varing the feed and air can change the spray alot.


----------



## Atomizer (Oct 28, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> forty nozzels what is the size of the vertical.


 I wanted to make the best use of the space in the greenhouse, The vertical is based on an 8ft diameter cylinder, 6.5ft high with 163sqft of outer surface area (25ft x 6.5ft). 
I`m undecided whether to plant the top of the cylinder (+50sqft) or add an inner cylinder 5ft diameter x 6.5ft high (+102sqft). 
I like the idea of using two circular walls with an 18" cavity.. planted on both sides 
Access will be an issue whichever way i go. The nozzle manifold is exactly the same so i`ll install the main 8ft cylinder and decide afterwards.
To put it into perspective the greenhouse has 154sqft of floor area.The vertical gives me 163sqft (outer only), 213sqft (outer+ top) or 265sqft (2 walls + cavity) and i still have plenty of path space


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 3, 2009)

Guess I have shown a commitment to an air atomizer system. Just spent $700 (including shipping) on a 6 cfm oil less compressor. It is a militray surplus Air Techiques M5 Denatl compressor so the price was right. Now they are selling on eBay for what I paid for mine with shipping included. No oil issues as with the Jun-Air and other refrigeration compressor type models. It is a big enough unit that it should only run avery little. It is rated at just below 50 dba at 3 feet distance. Also bought a smaller 1 cfm oil less back up for $127 with shipping. Considering where I live though it may take all of the rest of this calendar year for the larger compressor to arrive by motor freight. The 1 cfm shpould be more than adequate for initial trials though so now it is a matter of deciding how many atomizers of waht size to try out. Suggestions would be appreciattted. I am thinking 3 foot cubes with two atomizers each. No soil, no wool or hydroton. Just clones in net pots. Started in one chamber then moved over to the second chamber. The pot size is still up in the air as the atmizer threads I have read were for some reason were seed grows started rock wool. Seemed to cause a lot of problems with over saturation, damp off etc., Many trials with using drip irrigation inconjnction with the atomizers etc. Not really something I want to waste time and efforts with. I'm thinking about a less deep cube for clones using a single atomizer and pots fairly close together, say 4 per square foot in 5" net pots with neoprene inserts. Can't find 5" neoprene inserts but a hole saw works well and neoprene mats are readily available at Walmart cheap. I am hoping 5" will allow a few weeks vegging root growth without producing too large of a root mass to fit through a 5" hole. Seems like the major increase in root growths shown on UK420 seems to be coming after the light change over. I have to read a few more threads but there does not seem to be a whole lot of good info there. The nutrient dat ais based upon the use of bad tap water with a high EC and most info revolves around his difficulties in using rock wool and aer mz sting and drip irrigation all at once with seeds. Hopfully he gave more useful data after he switched over to clones. Pretty hard to get through all the back patting replies to dig out the useful info.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 3, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Guess I have shown a commitment to an air atomizer system. Just spent $700 (including shipping) on a 6 cfm oil less compressor. It is a militray surplus Air Techiques M5 Denatl compressor so the price was right. Now they are selling on eBay for what I paid for mine with shipping included. No oil issues as with the Jun-Air and other refrigeration compressor type models. It is a big enough unit that it should only run avery little. It is rated at just below 50 dba at 3 feet distance. Also bought a smaller 1 cfm oil less back up for $127 with shipping. Considering where I live though it may take all of the rest of this calendar year for the larger compressor to arrive by motor freight. The 1 cfm shpould be more than adequate for initial trials though so now it is a matter of deciding how many atomizers of waht size to try out. Suggestions would be appreciattted. I am thinking 3 foot cubes with two atomizers each. No soil, no wool or hydroton. Just clones in net pots. Started in one chamber then moved over to the second chamber. The pot size is still up in the air as the atmizer threads I have read were for some reason were seed grows started rock wool. Seemed to cause a lot of problems with over saturation, damp off etc., Many trials with using drip irrigation inconjnction with the atomizers etc. Not really something I want to waste time and efforts with. I'm thinking about a less deep cube for clones using a single atomizer and pots fairly close together, say 4 per square foot in 5" net pots with neoprene inserts. Can't find 5" neoprene inserts but a hole saw works well and neoprene mats are readily available at Walmart cheap. I am hoping 5" will allow a few weeks vegging root growth without producing too large of a root mass to fit through a 5" hole. Seems like the major increase in root growths shown on UK420 seems to be coming after the light change over. I have to read a few more threads but there does not seem to be a whole lot of good info there. The nutrient dat ais based upon the use of bad tap water with a high EC and most info revolves around his difficulties in using rock wool and aer mz sting and drip irrigation all at once with seeds. Hopfully he gave more useful data after he switched over to clones. Pretty hard to get through all the back patting replies to dig out the useful info.


Well i agree it is hard to go thru all the threads to get just a few bits of info. sound like you got a good deal on the compressor. i was thinking of looking in the surplus world when i get ready to go ahead with an atomizer project. i guess youll probably beat me to it though it sounds like. from my reading and observations of sub 50 micron roots it seems to me (not completely scientific just a hunch) that alot of the problems the people were having with thier atomizers stems from the droplets being to small. I have read some info from tests on aero roots and if the droplets are to fine then the plant spends an inordinate amount of time growing multitudes of tiny root fibers which in the end dont increase the topside. at least in some tests this was the case. 
Alot of people have tried the ultrasonic foggers and alot of the info from those threads also seems to confirm that to small of droplets cant support a large plant. they work for propagation but have a hard time supporting growth.
Its nice to see a beatiful bundal of white fuzzy roots but if it doesnt increase the yield whats the point. 
All the hand watering and drip in conjuction with the atomizers should indicate something should of been done differently.

Why i said all that is when you go ahead with your selection of nozzels i would suggest that you find some that are capable of producing a wide varity of droplet sizes. hence the need to be able to accuratly control the air and fluid flows.

i guess the footprint of the atomizer contanier is somewhat dependent on the best footprint size for your lighting since your into sog. then find a nozzel that can fill that space in 2-3 seconds. you might be able to use just one nozzel. some of the videos ive seen on these nozzels looks like they can fill an area pretty quick.

Maybe its best to get one nozzel and stick it into some kind of container and see how it performs before even deceiding on the container size. might save alot of rework.

Are you saying the dental air compressors dont use any oil or do they just clean the oil out of the air.

Where do you find neoprene mats at walmart?

3 foot cubes seem like a good size if thats what your light will cover well. i defineatly think your right with not needing it as deep for smaller stages.

Ive tried the recommended ec levels for aero in my new HP aero system and they dont work. at least not with GH nutes. im having to run higher ec levels and lower PH to get things looking normal. still tweaking to find out what works. be nice if i had the individual ion testers or could do tissue samples. maybe in another life.

Finally figured out what was wrong with my selenoid. i kept thinking my nozzels were getting plugged because there wasnt alot of mist coming out. well my selenoid wasnt seated tight into the valve and was bleeding by which had me tightening the flow ristricter down to much that the nozzels werent firing properly. I was getting ready to buy a $250 Stainless steel selenoid valve but thought id call the company that makes the one i have and chew some ass. well the guy told me what to check and sure as hell he was right. fixed it and it seems like a completly different machine. the nozzels now totally engulf the chambers with a 2 sec pulse that will linger. what a relief as i thought "this sucks that my nozzels plugged after 2 weeks." im sure this is going to help the topside now also. its definatly a challenge this first go to figure everything out. i hope to get to the atomizer project this winter if all goes well.


----------



## Treeth (Nov 3, 2009)

Nice!

I too have committed credit today towards;

solenoid valve, digital recycle timer, and aquarium chiller.
I plan on picking up any old compressor/motor assembly from Harbor Freight...
and (finally) a price on two Delavan SN models, which are good enough. 
All in all probably just under 1k...

This winter is definitely looking, productive.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 3, 2009)

The oil less compressors actually have no oil lubrication. Their bearings are sealed bearings usually synthetic solid sealed bearings or sealed ball bearing , and they use what some would call sacrificial rings rather than the old standard high carbon rand cast iron rings. Many are just epoxy based rings or Teflon rings. Usually three compression rings and two guide rings. Rebuilds are simple and cheap as the head and cylinder assembly pulls off like an air cooled engines jugs (cylinders) on an old air cooled Volkswagen or motor cycle.

The concern I have is whether a single atomizer is going to over water the near side and underwater the opposite side of the chamber.

I use multiples of 250 watt lights so that there would be two lights over each cube (a 6500K halide and a HPS), plus two 93 watt 6500K long tube CFC side lights. All water cooled. So basically they are getting 55.55 watts/sq ft HID and another 20.66 supplemental lighting, or 76 watts/sq ft mixed lighting. The typical light height is with bulbs center 8" over the plants canopy. I have some rooms with 4 foot widths with two 250 side by side so as to only cover 4 sq ft each without side lighting but even though it is all HID they perform worse than the lower HID wattage set up with the CFC side lights. Over all their outputs have been about equal comparing total kWh used in relation to yields. The buds with the increased broader spectrum lighting seem to be a bit tighter and more potent. Mainly I prefer the easier maintenance of the narrower setup and the smaller foot print. I really like the stronger stems and greater resistance to insects and such with the increased blue spectrum lighting. I also think the plants have increaesd vigor make it possible for them to recover from mishaps quicker.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 3, 2009)

Treeth said:


> Nice!
> 
> I too have committed credit today towards;
> 
> ...


Did you get the price of two SN valves down to below $175 each. He has not returned an email to me since the first where he gave a $175 estimate.

I have done real well on prices, but shipping is killing me. Shipping is running about 2 to 10 times the purchase costs. I got the back up compressors shipping by USPS so they, for the same weight are shipping for about half the cost of the motor freighted compressor. The back ups are Bell and Gosset 1/3 hp air less. I think finding new rings for them will be difficult however as Bell and Gossett sold their compressor devision years ago. However, government agencies still have a few thousand in use so parts must be somewhere.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 3, 2009)

Treeth said:


> Nice!
> 
> I too have committed credit today towards;
> 
> ...


keep us updated. that way when i start i can learn from what worked for you.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 3, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> The oil less compressors actually have no oil lubrication. Their bearings are sealed bearings usually synthetic solid sealed bearings or sealed ball bearing , and they use what some would call sacrificial rings rather than the old standard high carbon rand cast iron rings. Many are just epoxy based rings or Teflon rings. Usually three compression rings and two guide rings. Rebuilds are simple and cheap as the head and cylinder assembly pulls off like an air cooled engines jugs (cylinders) on an old air cooled Volkswagen or motor cycle.
> 
> The concern I have is whether a single atomizer is going to over water the near side and underwater the opposite side of the chamber.
> 
> I use multiples of 250 watt lights so that there would be two lights over each cube (a 6500K halide and a HPS), plus two 93 watt 6500K long tube CFC side lights. All water cooled. So basically they are getting 55.55 watts/sq ft HID and another 20.66 supplemental lighting, or 76 watts/sq ft mixed lighting. The typical light height is with bulbs center 8" over the plants canopy. I have some rooms with 4 foot widths with two 250 side by side so as to only cover 4 sq ft each without side lighting but even though it is all HID they perform worse than the lower HID wattage set up with the CFC side lights. Over all their outputs have been about equal comparing total kWh used in relation to yields. The buds with the increased broader spectrum lighting seem to be a bit tighter and more potent. Mainly I prefer the easier maintenance of the narrower setup and the smaller foot print. I really like the stronger stems and greater resistance to insects and such with the increased blue spectrum lighting. I also think the plants have increaesd vigor make it possible for them to recover from mishaps quicker.


yes that certainly is a valid concern. i think the positioning of the nozzel in the chamber will be something youll have to toy around with. i heard that Atomix had a see thru demo model that showed how the spray swirled thru the chamber. maybe just use some plexiglass on a test chamber with the lights out and a light to see how the mist is moving thru the container. i know that with the lights out and a flashlight is the only way i can really see the mist.especially under an HPS. (good tip from atomizer) 
Im starting to think that i can rework an air compressor if they are similiar to motorcycle engines which i worked on as a kid.
well i also do know that more light doesnt always equate to more yield . i generally only ran 50 watts /sqft in my tree rooms.but trees are a completly different world than sog. having said that if i can id bump it to 70-75 wpsf since my goal is always to get as much as i can off the few i have even if it costs a little more juice.

where do you find neoprene at in walmart stores. i hate going to hydro store to get it.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 3, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> yes that certainly is a valid concern. i think the positioning of the nozzel in the chamber will be something youll have to toy around with. i heard that Atomix had a see thru demo model that showed how the spray swirled thru the chamber. maybe just use some plexiglass on a test chamber with the lights out and a light to see how the mist is moving thru the container. i know that with the lights out and a flashlight is the only way i can really see the mist.especially under an HPS. (good tip from atomizer)
> Im starting to think that i can rework an air compressor if they are similiar to motorcycle engines which i worked on as a kid.
> well i also do know that more light doesnt always equate to more yield . i generally only ran 50 watts /sqft in my tree rooms.but trees are a completly different world than sog. having said that if i can id bump it to 70-75 wpsf since my goal is always to get as much as i can off the few i have even if it costs a little more juice.
> 
> where do you find neoprene at in walmart stores. i hate going to hydro store to get it.


 
They have childrens small childrens play mats that interlock with each other to form larger mats. They are however in bright colors such as red, blue, green, yellow etc.

They look like these. http://www.greatmats.com/products/foamspecial.php They have them in several price ranges. 

What actually work really well to cut them is the diamond dust hole saws used to cut holes in glass or tial, but unless you have aquarium you likely do not own a diamond hole saw. Regular holes work OK but the duller ones work better as they seem to cut better without grabbing at the foam. I have also seen people cut 3 or 4 layers at a time using a piece of thin steel tubing (electrical conduit) and a vice to press the tubing through the foam.

Or go to a military surplus store and by a sleepimg mat. They are OD green but work really well, and up here they are cheap when in stock. They are like 36" by 72" for $10.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 4, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> They have childrens small childrens play mats that interlock with each other to form larger mats. They are however in bright colors such as red, blue, green, yellow etc.
> 
> They look like these. http://www.greatmats.com/products/foamspecial.php They have them in several price ranges.
> 
> ...


thanks. ill check it out.


----------



## Treeth (Nov 4, 2009)

dammit stephen is out of office


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 5, 2009)

Looking forward to watching the air assisted diy setups progress.
Even though the concept is well proven with the Atomix, it has to be said that you guys deserve a lot of credit for heading down a road less travelled. 2010 could be a good year for aeroponics 

You guys put me in the mood to experiment so today i dug out an old aero project i was working on a while back..just for the craic. 
Its pretty different as theres no pump or nozzles involved so clogging is very unlikely 
I`m not sure how i`ll impliment it into a system but i`ll worry about that later.
The main component is a rotary disc atomizer that spins at 10-13,000rpm. 
The disc has hundreds of tiny teeth around the perimeter which break up the water 
into droplets. The hard part is getting it spin fast enough without generating too much noise. Nothing to lose by trying plus it keeps me off the streets


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 6, 2009)

Stephen always seems to be out of office as I always get a email saying out of office from him. Canned email replies, how personal.

FedEx delivered my compressor today. The seller took it to a freight company who said it weighed 148 pounds not 160, so it was under the 150 pound Fedex parcel weight maximum. It will take a little midification to do away with the dhyrdrator but that should be simple. Starnge the way the mediacl dental compressor dehydrators are set up. Mine was desihned to charge the system to 60 psi, then flash all the pressure through the compressor heads the air cooling tube and the dehydrator column. That means the most expensive part of the air to produce is wasted through the system just to remove water before it can get to any equipment. while tah might be nice with denatl handoieces, and tattoo guns I think I can settle quite easily on draining the tank occasionally as my solenoids nor atomizers will not care about moist air. I guess I could always get a free tattoo for the dehydrator part of the set up as it is definitely of higher qality and capaciy than what they generally are offered with their compresssors.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 6, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Stephen always seems to be out of office as I always get a email saying out of office from him. Canned email replies, how personal.
> 
> FedEx delivered my compressor today. The seller took it to a freight company who said it weighed 148 pounds not 160, so it was under the 150 pound Fedex parcel weight maximum. It will take a little midification to do away with the dhyrdrator but that should be simple. Starnge the way the mediacl dental compressor dehydrators are set up. Mine was desihned to charge the system to 60 psi, then flash all the pressure through the compressor heads the air cooling tube and the dehydrator column. That means the most expensive part of the air to produce is wasted through the system just to remove water before it can get to any equipment. while tah might be nice with denatl handoieces, and tattoo guns I think I can settle quite easily on draining the tank occasionally as my solenoids nor atomizers will not care about moist air. I guess I could always get a free tattoo for the dehydrator part of the set up as it is definitely of higher qality and capaciy than what they generally are offered with their compresssors.


so your saying the dental air comp. are overkill for air atomizing purposes because they waste energy just removing the water from the air. what makes these dental air compressors quite. is it the compressor(i.e not piston type) or is there some sort of silenicing setup.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 6, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Looking forward to watching the air assisted diy setups progress.
> Even though the concept is well proven with the Atomix, it has to be said that you guys deserve a lot of credit for heading down a road less travelled. 2010 could be a good year for aeroponics
> 
> You guys put me in the mood to experiment so today i dug out an old aero project i was working on a while back..just for the craic.
> ...


doesnt some small hydro shop aero setups use some sort of spinning mechanism to produce droplets. what was the device used for before you got your hands on it?

I found a nylon pressure relief valve for 30 bucks rated to 150 psi. thought it was a good deal so i bought one. hooked it up and the thing keep bleeding thru no matter what i set it on. took a look at the directions and in very very tiny print it said "valve not designed to stop flow completly some bypas may occur". you think these a. holes would put that in their description of the item so a person would know before he ordered it. Oh i guess then maybe noone would order any. well another item to go in with the rest of the 100s of things not being used.

dont try that in your kitchen


----------



## Treeth (Nov 6, 2009)

I got my solenoid and solid state time delay switch today... 

Should be easy, 120 v AC in. I feel like I should find the particular connectors so that that current stays safe. They look like, 12 or 14 gauge Male electrical connectors.

Tree Farmer! Fuck those worthless, unproductive assets!


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 7, 2009)

Treeth said:


> I got my solenoid and solid state time delay switch today...
> 
> Should be easy, 120 v AC in. I feel like I should find the particular connectors so that that current stays safe. They look like, 12 or 14 gauge Male electrical connectors.
> 
> Tree Farmer! Fuck those assets!


Probably a DIN socket... Does it look like the connectors on the back of my solenoids? If so there are lots of nice options for hooking it up... 

Check out: 
http://www.canfieldconnector.com/product-category/din-connector-products.htm


----------



## sherriberry (Nov 7, 2009)

random question that you guys would know...

what is the least amount of support you can put under a plant in an aero system?

so, instead of the basket and the little round rocks... if you just had like a rubber collar, like you uses for clones... and maybe just 2 wires or "beams" that were about 2 inches below that... do you think the plant could straddle a beam, and let the rest of its roots dangle, and be healthy?

Thanks in advance!


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 7, 2009)

If you could keep it in place until it grew enough roots to hold it up right it should work. Your talking something like a 1/2" diameter hole with the clone stem stuck through the hole down to a cross bar. If your talking a bigger hole on top you will need to secure it in place at the top also. Net baskets are just simple and cheap. With clone cuttings they are sufficient without hydroton or rock wool etc. by using a neoprene or plastic slit lid on top of the net pot to hold them vertical and they can only slip down in the pot as far as a branch at most.


----------



## sherriberry (Nov 7, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> If you could keep it in place until it grew enough roots to hold it up right it should work. Your talking something like a 1/2" diameter hole with the clone stem stuck through the hole down to a cross bar. If your talking a bigger hole on top you will need to secure it in place at the top also. Net baskets are just simple and cheap. With clone cuttings they are sufficient without hydroton or rock wool etc. by using a neoprene or plastic slit lid on top of the net pot to hold them vertical and they can only slip down in the pot as far as a branch at most.



here is what im trying to do...

I want to clone in a fogger setup... so just the collar around the cutting, and the roots will explode in the fog as proven many times.

Then i want to transfer the plants to an NFT BOX, this box is custom made, and is 4 x 5 ft, and has a tilt to it, so its like a VERY WIDE GUTTER.

The top plane of the box is where the collars will be, and then im undecided if i want to use the net pots, or if i want to build a simple, 1/8th inch metal wire support system, of 2 beams that cross perpendicular, and as i set the plant in , i make the roots stradle the beams.

Eventually, i plan on adding sprayers like you guys use, in the box, and putting them on timers IN ADDITION to the NFT.

I would think that having the roots exposed and not limited by the pots would be a good thing.

The net pots sold at my near by store, have small holes, and im thinking it might restrict nice healthy thick root growth.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 7, 2009)

heres a link to an article in urban gardener about the atomix. some pics and explanations about what takes place in the root zones.
http://www.urbangardenmagazine.com/index.php?id=74&searched=atomix&highlight=ajaxSearch_highlight+ajaxSearch_highlight1


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi TF
The GH rainforest uses a vortex sprayer, the disc spins at 3000rpm and delivers a radial spray rather than a mist. This disc is designed for ultra low volume agricultural spraying. The only way to tell its putting out mist is to put something in the way, a brick wall changes to a slightly darker color if you run the edge of the mist pattern up and down, other than that there`s no noticeable wetting. 
I have a selection of nozzles which plug into the disc housing, the brickwall test used a 60ml/minute delivery nozzle. I`ve modified another nozzle to deliver around 15ml/minute..should be interesting at 13000rpm, the disc perimeter will be moving at 132mph


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 8, 2009)

atomizer
sounds interesting but also a little dangerous. if that thing broke loose it would be like a bullet flying. i think id want to stand behind a wall like an xray tech does. i guess something like that would work for a real large chamber if you could mount the motor outside and have some kind of shaft running in to drive it.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 8, 2009)

Hi TF
There`s no weight to it and not that much torque really. If it flew off it wouldn`t do much damage unless it caught you square in the eye  
To make the best use of it, a tall chamber would be good or possibly something like Epcot, where the plants move into the misting station on a conveyor. A weak fan would be more than enough to direct the mist horizontally into a long chamber. 
I don`t see it being as flexible as nozzles and a pump but its worth having a play if only for the entertainment value


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 10, 2009)

Quote from Stephen for the delvan atomizers finally:
Quote Valid for Thirty Days
Qty 2
Part No. 30610-10
SNA Stainless Steel Nozzle
Price $145.22 each

Quote Valid for Thirty Days
Qty 2
Part No. 29713
SNA Stainless Steel 
Price $90.01 each

The second listing is the adapter needed to use the atomizer. It is the actual body where as the other is the guts to the assembly. They really know how to charge dearly for their stuff. $235.23 per atomizer assembly. Of course he read the number wrong and gave me quotes for the wrong nozzles. There is not even a nozzle number on their charts that match the number he sent. The largest listed in their SN charts is a 6010-09 at about 10 liters per hour.


----------



## Treeth (Nov 10, 2009)

In response to your recent inquiry, we are pleased to quote as follows: 

Delavan SN Nozzle Qty. 1-11 $42.41 each
Part No. 30609-X
Material: brass 

Delavan SN Adaptor Qty. 1-11 $39.95 each
Part No. 17147-1
Material: brass


----------



## Treeth (Nov 10, 2009)

That is a huge difference.

Why, again,

is stainless superior to brass?

-I got a chiller in the post today as well!


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 10, 2009)

Treeth said:


> That is a huge difference.
> 
> Why, again,
> 
> is stainless better than brass?


 
Stainless is more inert as to resistance to dissolving/corrosion/leaching. Brass means copper. Copper is not a healthy thing to ingest yet alone smoke. While with an atomizer using air it is hoped that the metal areas will only be wetted when in use it is doubtfully the case as it is quite likely there will be nutrients in the nozzle and nozzle body between air blasts, as likely the air lines between the solenid and the nozzle will clear before the lines with nutrient fluid have finished draining into the nozzles.
I am not sure what you mean by a big difference as I only got a quote on the stainless models. If you mean thedifference betwwen hs original estimate of brass and stianless, yes it is quite a difference. Both valves would still need the body/adapter though. I think the barss would work just as well, but they health aspect is something to consider especially as the nutrients are acidic. Then there is the fact that copper is only used in very small trace amounts ( about 0.004 %) and is toxicto the plants at high levels. Copper toxicity is often more of aproblem than a shotrage. However, atomix used brass valves that were merely chrome plated on the outside, They used the valves in siphon systems though so the valves likely held little nutrients between sprays. The price difference is very large. How much leaching could actually occur in one minute or two minutes. Hum!

$82.16 per set versus $235.23.

pdf on copper leaching under acidic conditions:
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGklL12_lK7XYA5AxXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzaWY3Z2I3BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0g0NDZfMTM3/SIG=12boau4m1/EXP=1257975157/**http://www.usc.edu/CSSF/History/2005/Projects/J0522.pdf


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 10, 2009)

So if atomizer or tree farmer are using , I believe, four misters at a time that are capable of about 5 liters each per hour then two atomizers capable of about 10 liters per hour should be pretty much OK. Opinions? My chamber would be larger, but not excessively. At over $200 a pop I do not want to have to use more than one or two atomizers per chamber.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 10, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> So if atomizer or tree farmer are using , I believe, four misters at a time that are capable of about 5 liters each per hour then two atomizers capable of about 10 liters per hour should be pretty much OK. Opinions? My chamber would be larger, but not excessively. At over $200 a pop I do not want to have to use more than one or two atomizers per chamber.


well that was a good link to the copper leaching article. I was wondering about that because my solenoid crapped out on me so i had to have one right away so i found a brass one and put it in until the SS one i ordered gets here. the thing cost as much as the stainless steel one i ordered but it was either that or cycle my pump every five minutes and i wasnt going to do that so i put the brass one in. After reading that article it doesnt seem like .3ppm with solution setting overnight is that much. and that was with copper. they said brass was even less. i know i would want to use SS but i dont think brass is all that bad after reading that. im going to keep my brass solenoid as a backup now after the SS one goes in. I know i recommended the sprinkler selonoid previously in this thread from drip irrigation but ive had nothing but problems with them in this app. never had a problem before in the 40-60psi range but i dont think there good enough for this 80-100psi app. the one i have now works great. nice clean snap to it opening and closing. its a dayton. 

I also found out that i needed to have some bleed lines on my pressure switches cause when i changed the res out and the system pressure dropped to zero air was getting trapped in the lines and causing my pressure switches to cycle and drift off of set points. since the bleed lines are installed they work as they should.

Well my nozzels put out .08 ounces per sec. I have them set on 2 sec every 2 minutes and they seem to be doing fine. i tried 4 sec every 2 minutes and thought things look like overwatering. the mist hangs in the chamber visibly for at least a minute that i can see. maybe longer just not visable. i know that doesnt sound like alot but i assure you things stay very moist in there. so you can use those numbers to figure out what it would take to fill a certain size chamber. mine are 22x22x14. of coarse air atomizing might be a little different but its a starting point.

if anything i would be worried about to much flow and not being able to slow the nozzels down enough. i have 4 nozzels in each chamber but i think 2 would have worked just fine.

Ive had some bumps with this but thats with any new system. i think that when i have all the safty features built in it will be a very reliable high performing system. so far im impressed but sure would like to try an air atomizer also.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 10, 2009)

I have been lucky in collecting hayward and plastomatic solenoids on ebay so I am stup up for at least 6 nozzles. I have some really nice stainless steel low voltage solenoids if you can use them. They were cheap so I just could not avoid buying them. They have stainless steel Swagelok fittings on them rather than normal pipe taps though. I do not use low voltage though. They are only 1/4" though. I have been pretty lucky getting good solenoid valves off eBay. I just got a three way Asco 110 volt 1/4 stainless steel for $5.57 and only $9 for shipping.

Small stainless steel 120 volt solenoids for $12.95.
http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_kw=stainless&_kw=solenoid&_kw=valves&_ckw=steel#item439b4ca803

0.08 ounces per second: (0.08 * 3600 second/hour) = 288 ounces per hour. 288 ounces is 2.25 gallons per hour which is 8.5 liters per hour. The quoted atomizers should be about 10 liters per hour. If I just make the compartments two foot high and three foot square that means 18 cubic feet. Your using Four 2.25 gallon nozzles for 3.92 cubic feet, so (9 / 3.92) = 2.29 ratio where as mine with two atomizers would be a (20/1 = 1.1 ratio. So as you say you are using 2 seconds every 2 minutes, I might have to go to 2 seconds once per minute or 4 seconds every two minutes. Or somewhere in betwwen, who can really tell at this point, but that range would not be bad. I think that is in the range of the large atomix chamber write up at UK420.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 11, 2009)

The cheapest solenoids are the ones use in washing machines. very reliable and have a plastic body. You have to be a bit careful with the mains voltage though. 
Copper leaches pretty fast especially with low ph. The small amount of water delivered could mean a higher concentration of copper too. It would be easy to test, just get an aquarium test kit for copper and compare readings of straight nutes (trace copper) against an equal amount from the nozzles. 
If you use drain to waste instead of recirculating, the nutes will only go through once so theres no chance of excess copper building up in the res.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 11, 2009)

I have both Hach colorimeters and a spectrophotometer I could use for testing, but the issue has never come up for me before as it has always been easy enough to get plnty ofplastic, piping. valves etc. I have marine reef tanks so Lall by plumbing fro the entrance to my RODI system on is pretty mucla ll palstic. I do use brass flow swithches on my water cooled light water lines. Other than that it is pretty much plastic or titanium. Even most of my probes are glass and/or plastic with stainless steel. platinum or titanium. My profession means I have to do a lot of water testing to include domestic water for copper. Domestic water is kept at a pretty high pH though to cut down on leaching of lead from solder joints and to prevent heavy pitting of steel main water lines so copper is usually quite low. As I have always needed to stay away from copper with my reef tanks avoiding it with the grow rooms has just been standard. Triple the price for stainless atomizers though is quite a difference.


----------



## sherriberry (Nov 11, 2009)

so whats it take to get started into this?

If i get the stainless 120 v selenoid... how many of those do i need? 1 for each atomizer, or 1 total?

How many atomizers can go on a hose?

I get one of these tank pump things... they are a couple hundred it seems...

and what else do i need?

Thanks


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 11, 2009)

sherriberry said:


> so whats it take to get started into this?
> 
> If i get the stainless 120 v selenoid... how many of those do i need? 1 for each atomizer, or 1 total?
> 
> ...


Depends on which sytem you want to set up. There is the high pressure aero systen which uses a small high pressure *diaphragm* pump and captive air accumalator tank to hold water at a high pressure. A timer and solenoids control the flow to the plastic misters. There are also also pressure regulators and a presssure switch and filter.

Then there is the air atomizer system that uses an air compressor and atomizer nozzles. Instead of high pressure fluid it is a siphon or gravity feed nutrient system to the nozzles and compressed air forces the spray of the nutrient solution through the nozzles. 

I think the air atomizer system is easier to expand to a larger sytem than the high pressure system but the initial capital investment is larger than with with the high pressure nutrient system. 

Neither is cheap, but the rewards are quite obvious. The hair roots and the extremely short internodal spacing, shortened heights and fast, fast growth I think would be very hard to match with any other systems. The plant photos I have seen show what looks like 6 foot tall plant bonzaied down to three feet or shorter, but with the same number of internodes that would be expected with the 6 foot plant. To see plants so thick with limbs that it is impossible to see through the plant was pretty neat when considering the growth took only a few weeks.

At least $1000 for the high pressure system and maybe double that for the air atomization system that is readily expandable.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 11, 2009)

The expansion of a pumped system would just mean adding another accumulator and the nozzles. The pump usually has plenty of spare capacity. The expansion limit is the point where the pump runs constantly to keep up with the drawdown. 
With a 1 sec/1 minute cycle and pressure range 90-60psi, a 10 gallon accumulator with a 1gpm pump could service well over 2500 (5lph) nozzles


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 11, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> The expansion of a pumped system would just mean adding another accumulator and the nozzles. The pump usually has plenty of spare capacity. The expansion limit is the point where the pump runs constantly to keep up with the drawdown.
> With a 1 sec/1 minute cycle and pressure range 90-60psi, a 10 gallon accumulator with a 1gpm pump could service well over 2500 (5lph) nozzles


 
O, except that pumping rate would be for a pump likely pump freely with no psi/restriction. I doubt that the small diaphragm pumps would pump anywhere near that volume at 60 to 90 psi. I looked into what it would take to power about 72 heads and it would have taken three pumps if trying to keep the duty cycle reasonable. I acn not imagine the pumps would last all that long running nearly a 100% duty cycle between 60 and 90 psi. At the time I was looking at using tubes rather than chambers. I can see now that I will e using two atomizers instead of 24 misters and I could use 12ister s instead with high pressure, but after looking at the air atomization I believe I cam monitraily come out ahead with the air and atomizers as piping low pressure air in a distributer without having to worry about the cost of all palstic and staimlees valves and just siphoning or gravity feeding the nutrients would be easier and cheaper at a large scale. It however is definitely not cost advantageous at a small scale. But cosnsidering I can set up a many, many chambers with just one compressor and one large feed line or even use a regenerative blower instead of a compressor. It is a fact of Physics that it is much easier and therefore cheaper to compress air than it is to compress a fluid. Without that iar bag the high pressure system would definitely be unarguably more expensive to operate. The capital investment in the small scale definitely leans towards the pumped system. Especially when air atomizers cost 80 to 200 times as much as the plastic misters.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 11, 2009)

i wish i would have looked at ebay for selonoid valves before i bought my SS one. those 1/4 inch ones are nice for the price. I had thought about using four 1/4 inch solinoid valves feeding off my 1/2 inch line instead of just using one 1/2 inch solenoid to fire the misters. i would like to have the ability to fire each pod differently to test misting times and because i think it would be easier on the system if just a 1/4 inch line fired at a time instead of the 1/2 inch line does now. the lines really jump when the 1/2 inch soleinoid fires. of coarse then i would need 4 cycle timers to fire them individually. but i still might do it later. im going to keep an eye out on ebay.

On a related note you are right fatman on the internode spacing with HP aero. also stalks get huge(especially side ones) and are filled with water. it acutually just gushes out if a leaf is cut off. Hp aero makes shit look like Roman soldiers.

Atomizer 
on the washing machine solenoids do you know if they can handle 100psi and do they usually have pipe threads or barbed ends . i use to see them in old washing machines when i scavaged junk yards but they always had some sort of barbed end with a wire clamp on them. after seeing the $12 SS ones on ebay im going to start picking some of these deals up for future use(atomizer project)


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 12, 2009)

Ah shoot and I was hoping to dump my low voltage (24 Volt) stainless steel solem noid. I think I paid about $25 for 5 with shipping. The only problem is they take VCO fo ittings to coonct them to anything. That means to fittings per valve at about about $7 each. http://cgi.ebay.com/Swagelok-SS-4-VCO-6-400-1-4-VCO-Fitting-x-1-4-OD-Tube_W0QQitemZ150240878941QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item22fb0de15d 

They are nice valves though. Two probably retail for several hundred each and the other three at about $100 each. The two expensive ones weigh over 2 pounds each easily. The smaller three weigh a half pound each. Oh well.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 12, 2009)

Hi TF
washing machine solenoids will handle 10bar (~150psi), over here they have a 3/4" bsp threaded inlet for the hose connection and a barbed outlet that accepts a 1/2" bore tube.
Hi Fatman, i guess either way,economics will favour large scale but in most cases anyone looking at a commercial scale operation isn`t likely to use aeroponics. 


> It is a fact of Physics that it is much easier and therefore cheaper to compress air than it is to compress a fluid.


yes, water is virtually uncompressible, hence the water pump only compresses air held in the accumulator tank  I agree that the most expensive option is a high pressure pump (without a tank) to feed the nozzles directly. HP aero gained much of its reputation for killing pumps and being unreliable using that approach.


----------



## Treeth (Nov 12, 2009)

Atomizer,
Why will industry not look to air assisted aeroponics? 

It appears to be scalable to me...
And of most efficacy...


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 12, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF
> washing machine solenoids will handle 10bar (~150psi), over here they have a 3/4" bsp threaded inlet for the hose connection and a barbed outlet that accepts a 1/2" bore tube.
> Hi Fatman, i guess either way,economics will favour large scale but in most cases anyone looking at a commercial scale operation isn`t likely to use aeroponics.
> yes, water is virtually uncompressible, hence the water pump only compresses air held in the accumulator tank  I agree that the most expensive option is a high pressure pump (without a tank) to feed the nozzles directly. HP aero gained much of its reputation for killing pumps and being unreliable using that approach.


I would be so sure about the commercial not using aeroponics. I know of a huge, huge number of aeroponic systems, however they presently are low or medium pressure aero. Where I am at the footprint is a major determing factor of profit and stealth. Aero offers a small footprint. Atomized promised the a higher yield on the same foot prints due to the very close internodal spacing. Tighter fatter colas mean more yield. I think it will take a while to find the strains that will perform best without the need for massive pruning however.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 12, 2009)

I agree, most types of aero are very minimalist and even good value when you look at the long term costs associated with other methods (quality store bought compost or hydroton for example).

Treeth, i wish they would, the more popular something is the cheaper the components become.. in theory anyway 

I would expect mainstream agriculture to be into air assisted aero in glass houses by now if it was commercially viable but they probably only try whats available off the shelf. 
There was plenty of interest in the Atomix..the only problem was the price. The question most growers will ask is whether air assisted (or HP aero) can be made as reliable/low maintenance as low pressure aero and still outperform it by enough margin to justify the investment. Cake and eat it comes to mind but thats the reality


----------



## Treeth (Nov 12, 2009)

Fatman, check out dutch passions' The Ultimate. 
It's exactly what you're looking for. 

What I'm working on now is figuring out a system to cool my pods;
I bought a chiller, and I'm thinking of passing an isolated loop of coolant water through loops of hose;

Through my four pods. (different nutes different times)

I also realized now that i will have to agitate each pod's res with an aquarium pump as well. 

eh. I'll be running 1 SN nozzle per pod, probably around 90psi, I hope that works for feeding. 

If not ill pull back into two pods. 

My experiment however is regarding the light levels needed to sustain a true cola canopy...

Whether that amount is in the 60's per foot or double that is anyones' guess,
especially with this crazy level of efficacy afforded by air assistance.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 12, 2009)

There is a huge difference betwwen what is economical for agriculture thanpot growing. We are talking about growing something that a sells for a dollar or less per pound versus $2000 plus per pound. There are commercial growrs using aero for ornamnetals such as flowers etc because it is more ecomomical than soil but flowers and ornamental house planys sell for a great deal more than tomatoes etc. I think the main hold up with aeromist development ainly lies in the smalla mount of major manafctures of atomizing nozzles. Delavan and such are making a huge mark uop on their nozzles but how many are they actually producing. atomizers workvery well at very low pressures so blowers can be used with large systems asthey produce huge volumes at lower pressures and do so cheaply. Even a smaller regenerative blower is not a piece of equipment you would want to put in a house though. I have to admit though IMHO a low pressure , medium pressure and even high pressure aero or atomizer systems are very likely not economical but for growing luxury products. Even hydro is pretty much resrved only for that or for a few high dollar vegetables.

I am planning two misters per 18 cubic foot pod at hopefully 20 psi or less. No reservoir agitation. Drain to waste. Low EC. Home mixed nutrients, of course. I have no qualms about using small anmounts of chlorine to keeo protozoa levels low or absent so I am not worried about chilling the nutrients. Increasing the level of DO in the reservoir would be counter intuitive. High nutrient DO means fast bacterial multiplication. The misted nutrients will not gain by higher nutrient DO. The mist will assure high DO in and by itself.

I do not intend on providing a lot of cooling to anything but the lights which are water cooled. I do use air conditioners but I do not intend to really chill or cool any thing below the room temp of the grow room.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 20, 2009)

Hey guys
I been busy setting up accumulator precharge pressure and checking capacities, pressures and filling times today..its fun to mess around with stuff. 
Anywho, it occurred to me that it should be possible to make a relatively silent diy compressor that uses mains water pressure as the compressive force. I haven`t worked out the details but i don`t see any reason why it couldn`t work. An accumulator (working in reverse), a few solenoids and a pressure switch..cheaper than a compressor and with 12v solenoids it functions in a power outage. 
I came up with a way to use mains water pressure to power a hp aero system a while back but haven`t got around to building a prototype. Too many projects on the go and too little time 

If you have good mains pressure and an unmetered supply..it might be worth experimenting with.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 20, 2009)

My water cost is 4 cets per gallon and the pressure is only about 18 to 20 psi. Lots of calcium build up in the pipes and the plumbing is only ten years old.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 20, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> My water cost is 4 cets per gallon and the pressure is only about 18 to 20 psi. Lots of calcium build up in the pipes and the plumbing is only ten years old.


Water powered pumps are pretty common guys... I've seen them mostly in smaller sizes for lab work and that sort of thing... But honestly... It's just wasteful... Even if your water is free you'll be running so much to get the sort of pressure you need you probably won't be able to take a decent shower 

A few car batteries and an inverter should be enough to give you days worth of backup if you have an decently sized accumulator system.... 

It's always been funny to me that one of the best ways to store energy from a wind farm has historically been to pump water up hill to a damn and then extract it hydroelectrically when the wind runs out... 

For myself, I'll be investing in a small 2Kw generator as a backup... And will probably have some LED lighting on batteries just to keep the photo-periods from getting screwed up in the event of power loss. 

I'll also likely run a second pump, either as a hot spare or with both running constantly connected through a shuttle valve.



Oh and as far as solenoids go... I've been getting mine from STCvalve.com... They are stainless, with viton seals... High Cv factor... Nicely made.... 

They come in everything from 1/8th up to 3/4 for $30-50... Less if you want brass or plastic... You can also get them in AC like mine, or 12-48v as well... And not to be a total whore or anything... But they also have lots of other cool fittings and stuff... The S.S. press fittings are sweet, but they don't stock them all yet... Spendy though... $15 for the one 1/8th" S.S. elbow I ordered to play with. 

Anyway... Keep cracking... I've really been enjoying the conversation... It's really great to be part of a community like this where people inovate rather then just dropping cash on commercial setups. 

Oh yeah... Treeth! You just about made my side split the other day with your comment in the "ABR-1" most advanced night light ever!* Now with free dental floss for hanging.... Thread. Priceless. 

I got a quote from the manufacturer, about $400 with a two week lead time to build out one of the rebel 48 boards with just high bin royal blue and red LEDs... I'm thinking I might go for it... Don't think I could really do it for much cheaper myself. 


Peace,

T.M.H.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 20, 2009)

Not impressed by the TVC valves. Really their good ones are not any cheaper than major brand names. They do have a lot of lesser quality cheap valves however. But if yor already putting in a few thousand anyway why not spend a few hundred more for high quality valves. Their good quality valves are not any less than a minimum $100 each, and their high quality valves are much more than that. Most of there valves are home owner quality that would be used for applications that would not cause thousands of dollars in losses if they failed.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 21, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Not impressed by the TVC valves. Really their good ones are not any cheaper than major brand names. They do have a lot of lesser quality cheap valves however. But if yor already putting in a few thousand anyway why not spend a few hundred more for high quality valves. Their good quality valves are not any less than a minimum $100 each, and their high quality valves are much more than that. Most of there valves are home owner quality that would be used for applications that would not cause thousands of dollars in losses if they failed.


Don't know if that's a mistype or not... Cuz' there is a TVC valve company apparently :-S

But I really did mean STC... I can't really speak to reliability or anything just yet... But the overall quality on the ones I got seems to be very high. Check out pics in my thread if you want some idea.

http://www.stcvalve.com/Process Valve.htm#1 2S025-1/4 is the one I'm using on the manifolds... 

T.M.H.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 21, 2009)

Mis type. I have a 6 or more of the stc valves that are their mid price range valves. The internal machining is fine but the casting is crude or worse. I have quaite a few of their cheap small valves on reef tanks RO systems I have set up for friends. They are OK but not anybetter than those sold else where. The insides are good and they seem to have staying power but they just do not put the care into their casting as the major valv mnafacturers. There metal density is less also. IMHO you get a better deal on their cheaper valves than their more expensive valves which show poor quality and workmanship for the cost involved.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 21, 2009)

Pity about your 20psi mains water pressure, it was just a thought 
I have an hp aero cloner that runs on mains water pressure but i have more to work with (75psi). Its dtw but only uses 10L/day.. collected and used on the garden. A 16 nozzle pumpless hp might need 40L/day, a dripping tap would use more


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 21, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Mis type. I have a 6 or more of the stc valves that are their mid price range valves. The internal machining is fine but the casting is crude or worse. I have quaite a few of their cheap small valves on reef tanks RO systems I have set up for friends. They are OK but not anybetter than those sold else where. The insides are good and they seem to have staying power but they just do not put the care into their casting as the major valv mnafacturers. There metal density is less also. IMHO you get a better deal on their cheaper valves than their more expensive valves which show poor quality and workmanship for the cost involved.


The ones I have a super sweet outside... Machined SS... But it's good to know the process valves are a bit rough around the edges. My harbor freight pump was kind of like that... It's amazing what a coat of gloss black paint will do though  I'm holding off on new pics cuz' I'm so close to getting the wall with all the gear done... And since -- you know -- it's only like 2 people even reading the thread 




> Pity about your 20psi mains water pressure, it was just a thought
> I have an hp aero cloner that runs on mains water pressure but i have more to work with (75psi). Its dtw but only uses 10L/day.. collected and used on the garden. A 16 nozzle pumpless hp might need 40L/day, a dripping tap would use more


Makes me wonder though... What might one be able to get out of a personal water tower if one were so inclined... It's a shame... I know I saw something about a turbine (as in windmill) driven aero system somewhere on instructables with a tag-line like "feed the third world" but I can't seem to find it now. 

Damn you got 75 psi water pressure, and it's free??? Well I guess technically my water is free too... But I got to pay for the 'lectricity to pump it... But I have an accumulator tank the size of most peoples home water heaters and it still isn't 75 PSI 

T.M.H.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 21, 2009)

Just saw this:
http://www.instructables.com/id/Worlds_greenest_water_pump/

It makes one hell of a racket... And I guess only 27 psi, but the guy claims it was pumping some 700FT up hill... Just thought it was sort of neat. 

T.M.H.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 21, 2009)

I wish it was free, i do pay an annual water bill but its not based on usage. 
The solenoid and timer use a bit of power but theres no pump to breakdown or replace. The slight chlorine content disinfects the cloner with every pulse and the cuts never see the same water twice  The water is pretty cold (50F) so i made a simple heat exchanger to warm it up on the way to the nozzles.
Looking at your aero thread it appears you don`t like taking the easy route either


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 21, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I wish it was free, i do pay an annual water bill but its not based on usage.
> The solenoid and timer use a bit of power but theres no pump to breakdown or replace. The slight chlorine content disinfects the cloner with every pulse and the cuts never see the same water twice  The water is pretty cold (50F) so i made a simple heat exchanger to warm it up on the way to the nozzles.
> Looking at your aero thread it appears you don`t like taking the easy route either


Nah... I enjoy a challenge... I get depressed when there is nothing for me to put my mind to... 

Plus... You know tree framer set the bar pretty high  

I remember reading that long ass thread on TAG by podracer... And I got to the page where he said that it was no longer necessary to fool around with accumulator tanks and solenoids and all that... And I was kind of sad 

Then I read this thread... And I remember thinking, "That is the BIGGEST pressure gauge I have ever seen!"

And I was happy again 


T.M.H.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 21, 2009)

y`know, i thought exactly the same thing about TF`s pressure guage, it must be at least 4" diameter. Marvellous bit of kit though.. no need to squint to see what the pressure is


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 21, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> y`know, i thought exactly the same thing about TF`s pressure guage, it must be at least 4" diameter. Marvellous bit of kit though.. no need to squint to see what the pressure is


the gauge is big because i always hated having to get my glasses to read the gauges on other apps i had.

that TAG thread was the most wasted time of my life reading it. i found no useful info there. what little i found and used has turned out to be wrong info.

I am 99 percent happy with the performance of the pods. everything works as it should. only thing i would do different is put the silk screen bottoms in the pods to lift the roots off the floor like i had in my LP aero apps. Even though the sinks drain completely, the roots as they accumulate act as dams and hold tiny bits of water from flowing back to the res. where as if they were lifted off the floor they would be 100 percent out of any runoff. easy fix though.

Peeps who say these HP aero ops arent reliable i think just havent taken the time to build them properly with quality parts and most importantly planning. and ive read most people who try this method give up when they run into obsticales and convert thier systems to LP aeros or DWC or ebb and flows.

Ill admit i have never seen on the net a complete run using HP aero but i know people are doing it they just arent posting the grow journals and i can totally relate to thier reasons for not posting.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 21, 2009)

I`ll have to keep on squinting until i can find one that size 
With hindsight, the old tag thread was flawed pretty much from the start. The biggest issue was the recommended misting times of 20-30 sec. The pressure swings during the misting pulse didn`t do much for uniform droplet sizes. 
The thread lost the plot completely when they decided accumulators were an unnecessary complication


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 21, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I`ll have to keep on squinting until i can find one that size
> With hindsight, the old tag thread was flawed pretty much from the start. The biggest issue was the recommended misting times of 20-30 sec. The pressure swings during the misting pulse didn`t do much for uniform droplet sizes.
> The thread lost the plot completely when they decided accumulators were an unnecessary complication


 
im sorry buddy if your eyes are that bad.

yea your right abou it being flawed and i think it contributes to the negative attitudes towards HP aero to this day. if you ever ask a question about HP aero on any forum they always link you to that thread. thats sad since its so full of garbage and errors. his recommendations about feeding and misting times are wrong. someone once told me if your feeding heavy in HP aero or running long misting times then your just doing LP aero.. Im finding out thats the razors edge between LP and HP and thats where the results from HP show there potential.

cycling pumps will never get you the same results as an accumulator because of the ramping up and down of the cyles. now Mad Hatter has an interesting approach that might work with firing the solenoids from a continuous running pump but i still think that in the end its so much easier on the system with the accumulator. and what really has me thinking is if a plant does well with 2 sec every 4 minutes whats the sense in 20-30 sec cycles of misting. i guess we just miss what aeroponics is. bios web says plants spend 98 percent of there time in air. well if you figure that out it ends up being 2-3 seconds of mist every3-4 minutes. not 20-30 sec every 3-5 minutes.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 21, 2009)

Wow, 50 degrees plus water. My water is that warm at the tap for less than one minute. Water temps here are 34 degrees max 36 degree 12 months a year. The water here is actually circulated in the mains and between the houses and the mains. Ie they spend their money circulating the water rather tna pumping at k high pressures. Buildings with sprinkler systems have to install hue holding tanks to and pumps to amke up for low awter main prseeures. The fire departments have tanker trucks and pumper trucks as fire hoses fed from the water amins jsut does make it. We use Pitorifices that protrude into the water main that sorta scoop water out of the main line and circulate it in a loop through the house entry service at all times. Of couse that eats pressure. Then any water actually removed lowers prsessure. There is always a circulation in the system and all pipe is buried a minimum of 4 feet deep and is covered with a minmum of 2 inches of urethane foam insulation. They have emergency generators to assure water circulation during power outages. We have no water towers as they would freeze solid about 5 months per year. We have basically a giant swimmng pool under the water treatment plant for water storage. It is a bit different living in a cold climate. Water ram pumps have been around for over a century. They use to use huge ones up here to supply water for gold mining as the alternative then was wood boiler driven pumps where they would have still had to build the water lines. So instead they would just build lines that were larger at the begining then at the end. They sacrificed some water at each drop in order to power the waters pumped rise over each hill. They built water lines that traveled for miles. And that was the during days of riveted pipe sections. Now most people up here outside of cities and towns with water tratement palnts have water storage tanks inside their homes and either have water delivered or haul it in large plastic water tanks. Most sha;llow wells up here have extremely bad water with exr treme amounts of irin and manganese. Most of the the deep wells have exremely hard water with arsenic and iron.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 22, 2009)

Circulation is much better than frozen or burst pipes, it makes sense to ditch pressure in favour of keeping the water moving.It doesn`t get too cold here with winter lows of -6C to -8C

The cloner was just another experiment as i had the bits laying around. It takes roughly an hour for the water to heat from 50F to 68F and around 1hr 45 mins for the water to travel through the full length of the exchanger coil. Its longer than it needed to be to make sure the water hit the temperature well before it got to the solenoid.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 22, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> im sorry buddy if your eyes are that bad.
> 
> [...]
> 
> now Mad Hatter has an interesting approach that might work with firing the solenoids from a continuous running pump but i still think that in the end its so much easier on the system with the accumulator.


I'm pretty curious to see how that will work myself 

I've got some nice keyence digital pressure gauges which should let me monitor differental pressure between the head end and the end of each spray bar... Ultimately I'll be feeding them into the grow controller... But it's coming down to the wire so the Hal 420 version will have to wait for a bit


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 22, 2009)

A constantly running mist would be ideal if you put the plants on a turnatable/ lazy susan type unit with a variable rotation speed. 
With a large enough unit you could have misting pulses of a fraction of a second to individual root zones at high pressure without any solenoids, tanks or timers. The pump and rotation device ultimately become the weak links so theres still no free lunch 
Another option is to use something along the lines of a light mover to move a single misting nozzle linearly along a rectangular root chamber. You can buy high pressure rotatable joints which would allow 360deg rotation of a misting boom arm. Theres no shortage of possibilities to explore


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 22, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> A constantly running mist would be ideal if you put the plants on a turnatable/ lazy susan type unit with a variable rotation speed.
> With a large enough unit you could have misting pulses of a fraction of a second to individual root zones at high pressure without any solenoids, tanks or timers. The pump and rotation device ultimately become the weak links so theres still no free lunch
> Another option is to use something along the lines of a light mover to move a single misting nozzle linearly along a rectangular root chamber. You can buy high pressure rotatable joints which would allow 360deg rotation of a misting boom arm. Theres no shortage of possibilities to explore


 
i have to hand it to ya. you have ideas ive never even thought about. and i thought i over analyised stuff. a moving nozzel along a long run now that would be cool.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 22, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Wow, 50 degrees plus water. My water is that warm at the tap for less than one minute. Water temps here are 34 degrees max 36 degree 12 months a year. The water here is actually circulated in the mains and between the houses and the mains. Ie they spend their money circulating the water rather tna pumping at k high pressures. Buildings with sprinkler systems have to install hue holding tanks to and pumps to amke up for low awter main prseeures. The fire departments have tanker trucks and pumper trucks as fire hoses fed from the water amins jsut does make it. We use Pitorifices that protrude into the water main that sorta scoop water out of the main line and circulate it in a loop through the house entry service at all times. Of couse that eats pressure. Then any water actually removed lowers prsessure. There is always a circulation in the system and all pipe is buried a minimum of 4 feet deep and is covered with a minmum of 2 inches of urethane foam insulation. They have emergency generators to assure water circulation during power outages. We have no water towers as they would freeze solid about 5 months per year. We have basically a giant swimmng pool under the water treatment plant for water storage. It is a bit different living in a cold climate. Water ram pumps have been around for over a century. They use to use huge ones up here to supply water for gold mining as the alternative then was wood boiler driven pumps where they would have still had to build the water lines. So instead they would just build lines that were larger at the begining then at the end. They sacrificed some water at each drop in order to power the waters pumped rise over each hill. They built water lines that traveled for miles. And that was the during days of riveted pipe sections. Now most people up here outside of cities and towns with water tratement palnts have water storage tanks inside their homes and either have water delivered or haul it in large plastic water tanks. Most sha;llow wells up here have extremely bad water with exr treme amounts of irin and manganese. Most of the the deep wells have exremely hard water with arsenic and iron.


hey fatman what do most people heat with where your at. i go thru propane like a sailer does whiskey. need alternative.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 22, 2009)

I was thinking of making the nozzle bars rotate... At least when the design still called for them to go down the center of the containers... Would be pretty simple to do with a big RC servo or something... 

Now moving a single nozzle would be something else... Though still very doable. I have a pair of 2' linear actuators that will ultimately operate the inner door to my room... Something like that might work well... But given the environment you would have to bag them up like they do with camera gear when filming splatter pics  Or better still locate the drive electronics outside the chamber. 

Now if you powered the whole deal pneumatically or hydraulically that would be something else... STC, the same people that I get the solenoids from look to have a very nice range of pneumatic and hydraulic actuators and control systems... You can even get stuff like joysticks that operate several axies worth of valves... It all just looks like tons of fun to me  

A set of centrally mounted rotating heads would also be pretty cool... You would get the swirling pattern out of the misting system that way... Much harder the source the parts though... 

I bet rotating a large circular chamber back and forth 180 one way and then back the other would give you some strong ass stems... And it would look cool  

I like it... Keep kicking those ideas out Atom. 

T.M.H.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 22, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> hey fatman what do most people heat with where your at. i go thru propane like a sailer does whiskey. need alternative.


Fuel oil, wood and coal in that order. Fuel oil is the standard. There are a few people in the core arae of the city that have steam heat from the power plant but mainly only the old businesses are connected. Everthing else, new housing areas, shopping centers etc are out side the city core so they use fuel oil. We keep hoping for a natural gas pipeline. There is a gas distribution line in the city area but it uses gas that is trucked in from across the state. It is about the same cost as fuel oil as it is not as cheap as natural gas would be. A Our oil and gasoline costs are about if not the most exspensive in the country. Gasoline is presently $367 per gallon for self service regular.

We build with lots of insulation, double or triple pane windows and our houses are typically smaller then nation averages. Electricity is presently $0.26 per kWh. We have electric heaters on our car batteries, oil pans, and engine blocks so they will start in the winter. Only upper middle income or higher have heated garages. Average home size up here is barely 1000 square feet. In the village areas away from the cities the houses are much smaller, about 200 to 400 square feet. Takes a lot of heat when temps can drop easily to minus 50 deg F for several weeks every winter. It is warmer than usual out side right now at minus 17 F degrees. It should be at least 10 to 15 degrees colder.


----------



## sherriberry (Nov 23, 2009)

you guys all know im new to this aero world, but if im not mistaken, i might be able to combine your ideas and help you out...

these celenoids or whatever they are, are they at each sprayer? or are they at each end of a pipe? either way.... it seems as tho these are like fuel injectors on a car... because you guys mention duty cycles, etc...

if you wanted to have a pump running continuously... but it did not favor the roots to be under continuous spray,

what one might be able to do is run a single large pump, have it on continuously, and then have the main line split to 2 or more lines, and each of those lines feed different plants, OR each line could run down each side of each row of plants...

either way...

one could make the duty cycles alternate between lines for about a minute or some other amount of time.

this way, the pump is always on and fluid always flowing...

the only question is, which sprayers is it coming out of?

an example would be if there were 4 lines that all joined into one main line attached to the pump.

then each of the 4 lines celenoids or sprayers turns on for 1 min, while the other 3 lines remain off, and they alternate, making each line of sprayers come on once every 4 minutes... while the pump runs constantly.

Hopefully this helps, and im not completely missing the boat...

but im probably missing the boat somewhere.. and i just wasted 2 minutes of everyones life 


edit: or if you only have one line, but put a celenoid at each sprayer site, and just have the sprayers alternate on and offs, for each particular plant, or group of.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi Sherriberry
Theres usually only one solenoid between the accumulator tank and the nozzles with a short pipe run. One at every nozzle would be nice with a long pipe run as it keeps the line at accumulator pressure so you dont repressurize much pipework during each misting pulse. You`ll have 90psi ready to go right at the nozzle 
A 1min on cycle will soak everything, an ideal timer for hp would have 1-5 seconds on (1 second steps) for the misting pulse and 1-5 minutes off (15 or 30 second steps) for the pause.

TMH
Stepper motors would be the best bet for motivated nozzles. A toothed belt could carry the nozzle back and forth and a simple programable controller would position the nozzle at the exact spot everytime, very similar to how a printer controls the print head.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 23, 2009)

> TMH
> Stepper motors would be the best bet for motivated nozzles. A toothed belt could carry the nozzle back and forth and a simple programable controller would position the nozzle at the exact spot everytime, very similar to how a printer controls the print head.


That would be one hell of a long belt man  I'm not saying that it wouldn't work, but I think you might be better off with a cable drive or one of those [FONT=&quot]helical [/FONT]drive chains... You would need tensioners of some sort as well... I made an electric skateboard for burning man a few years back... I figured since the drive chain was less then a foot long I could get away without much of a tensioning mechanism... I was wrong.

The photos show what I ended up doing with the adjustable linkage... Of course that motor is capable of something like 4.8HP and more torque then my Honda... *

I do like the belt drive idea though... Compact and efficient... You could even use something simple like an encoder disk with a photo-sensor to mark the positions of the plants... I have a feeling though that you would be just fine running it end to end on an continuous basis... Your not watering after all, just filling the chamber.

Then again this would all really only apply to something that was just huge... Cuz' even my little nozzle array put out such a dense mist in a few seconds that running it for short enough time periods becomes the challenge rather then the reverse. 

Speaking of which... I was thinking about what TF said RE the loss of pressure between switching periods... And I realized that I had to some degree already incorporated a solution. The timing controller currently has a 10 second pause between when the pump restarts and the first bank opens. Since the pump is not self priming I wanted a period to allow for proper pressure run-up... This could be expanded if I end up haveing to shut the pump off for long periods between misting cycles... Though what I will probably do is just just add an additional solenoid inline with the main manifold that will go open when no other banks are running... If I keep this as the end of the other manifold i.e. after all the other solenoids it should ensure that the lines are pretty near full pressure when they go open. 

On the same note, McMaster offers some rather expensive nozzles very similar to mine that are marketed as "anti-drip" that have a pressure valve inline with the nozzle... I think they close as something like 70PSI... This would also have the effect of keeping the rail pressure constant... However they are well more then double the price. 

T.M.H.



















*Yeah, I admit it... I just wanted to post those photos


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 23, 2009)

Its a good idea to use adv`s if you can as they make the misting response very sharp. If you have very short pipe runs you may get away without them but you`ll get a short delay at the start of a pulse and some run-on at the end as the pipework depressurizes through the nozzle.
The perfect passive adv would open at your minimum system running pressure (75psi for TF and 65psi for me) and close at a max of 5psi less. I couldn`t find anything that tight, mine open at 58 and close at 26.
The only other alternative is to use a solenoid for nozzle so there`s zero pipelength to pressurize and no water to feed any mist run-on but that could get expensive.
Perhaps a normally open solenoid could reroute your flow from the pump directly to the res during an extended pause cycle? Add adv`s to the nozzles to maintain some pressure in the misting circuit.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 23, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Its a good idea to use adv`s if you can as they make the misting response very sharp. If you have very short pipe runs you may get away without them but you`ll get a short delay at the start of a pulse and some run-on at the end as the pipework depressurizes through the nozzle.
> The perfect passive adv would open at your minimum system running pressure (75psi for TF and 65psi for me) and close at a max of 5psi less. I couldn`t find anything that tight, mine open at 58 and close at 26.
> The only other alternative is to use a solenoid for nozzle so there`s zero pipelength to pressurize and no water to feed any mist run-on but that could get expensive.
> Perhaps a normally open solenoid could reroute your flow from the pump directly to the res during an extended pause cycle? Add adv`s to the nozzles to maintain some pressure in the misting circuit.


The pipe run is around 8' long... I was kind of thinking of feeding from both ends... Obviously there is still likely to be some trapped air... But I have a feeling this would considerably minimize it... And I have SO much excess capacity on the manifolds right now... Hell... I guess the best way to find out is just to try it eh? 

I'll let you guys know... Otherwise just plumbing a 90 with some larger pipe going straight up would probably do the trick... Same thing you use to reduce "pipe-hammers" in a house.... Unless I'm missing the point here... 

T.M.H.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 23, 2009)

The Mad Hatter said:


> The pipe run is around 8' long... I was kind of thinking of feeding from both ends... Obviously there is still likely to be some trapped air... But I have a feeling this would considerably minimize it... And I have SO much excess capacity on the manifolds right now... Hell... I guess the best way to find out is just to try it eh?
> 
> I'll let you guys know... Otherwise just plumbing a 90 with some larger pipe going straight up would probably do the trick... Same thing you use to reduce "pipe-hammers" in a house.... Unless I'm missing the point here...
> 
> T.M.H.


that is a crazy looking skateboard. looking at those pics and now i understand your quote 

" My crazy runs wide, and it runs deep"
*****************************


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 23, 2009)

The best bet is to keep the pipework completely flooded all the time if you can. 
A water hammer arrestor will probably increase the mist overrun, the air compressed in the arrestor tube by the water pressure will drive the nozzles after the solenoid closes.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 23, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> that is a crazy looking skateboard. looking at those pics and now i understand your quote
> 
> " My crazy runs wide, and it runs deep"
> *****************************



 Not crazy enough for that one... Calculated top speed of about 38Mph... I took it up to about 25... Speed wobble starts to get the better of me around there... Turns much better in reverse too 


T.M.H.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 23, 2009)

You`re a far braver man than me, it doesn`t look like theres any brakes either


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 23, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> You`re a far braver man than me, it doesn`t look like theres any brakes either


Yeah... I had always meant to add a go-kart disk break... But the controller has regenerative breaking and ends up being able to stop the thing just fine... I can go down a 15 degree slope at any speed I want from fractions of a MPH on up... 

Sadly the turning radius is what ended up making it unsafe for burning man... It's go something like a 30' circle... Perhaps more... I can barely turn it around on a 2 lane street. 

Burned up about $600 worth of LiPo cells by leaving them plugged into the controller over night too... So it's kind of been retired until batter prices come down a bit. 

T.M.H.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 24, 2009)

And they say hp aero is an expensive hobby 
I`ve been brainstorming again, a root chamber design this time. Its dirt cheap and allows you to increase the chamber depth to match the roots as they grow, the only limitation is the height of the room.


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Nov 24, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> And they say hp aero is an expensive hobby
> I`ve been brainstorming again, a root chamber design this time. Its dirt cheap and allows you to increase the chamber depth to match the roots as they grow, the only limitation is the height of the room.


My magical power to make any hobby expensive  

Care to share? I'm thinking something like a car antenna eh? Don't forget it's a dynamic system though, more volume, more mist... 

I think I might rather try and fix as many variables as I can... Although if you went with a dynamic misting system regulated by humidity you could probably get away with it.... I have a feeling though that something like a root sog (sow?) system -- like we were talking about a while back -- has the potential to be more beneficial... Although no idea should go unexplored. 

What exactly did you have on your mind?  

T.M.H.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 24, 2009)

Its nothing special but may be a cheap way to build a good sized root chamber. 
The magical ingredient is nothing more exotic than a section of flexible aluminum ducting 12"-18" diameter. All you`d need is a couple of plywood discs (14"-20"doughnuts) and 3 or 4 lengths of threaded rod to keep the discs apart and the duct under tension.
The bottom disc could sit on its extended threaded rod "legs" over a shallow container or bucket for the runoff with the nozzle built into the center. 
A single nozzle firing upwards into a round duct will reach a fair distance. If the mist has time to expand before it meets up with the roots you`ll get almost complete coverage 
The walls of the aero chamber don`t need to be strong, the weight of the plant is supported by the ply discs and threaded rod. 2ft of 10" duct will compress down to about 1.5", i don`t have any 18" to try but i guess its similar.

If you tack some light steel or plastic mesh around the doughnuts to form a mesh cylinder, you`ve got a cheap vertical hp cloner that`ll hold several hundred cuts. Not sure if the duct wall will like having hundreds of holes poked in it but its a thought.
If nothing else it`s a novel way to recycle old ducting 

Edit: I tested on a single nozzle firing straight up just to satisfy my curiosity. Measured from the nozzle outlet it managed a height of 3.5ft comfortably with around 80psi pressure. I didn`t do a test with it confined in a length of vertical duct but it would probably go even higher.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 28, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Its nothing special but may be a cheap way to build a good sized root chamber.
> The magical ingredient is nothing more exotic than a section of flexible aluminum ducting 12"-18" diameter. All you`d need is a couple of plywood discs (14"-20"doughnuts) and 3 or 4 lengths of threaded rod to keep the discs apart and the duct under tension.
> The bottom disc could sit on its extended threaded rod "legs" over a shallow container or bucket for the runoff with the nozzle built into the center.
> A single nozzle firing upwards into a round duct will reach a fair distance. If the mist has time to expand before it meets up with the roots you`ll get almost complete coverage
> ...


one time i wanted to take some of these http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/934/Transparent-Tanks/shrimp brine/0 and put them in a basement and cut a hole in the floor above and stick them up to the ground floor. put a net pot in the top and misters down along the tube that would be in the basement. so youd have the grow on the main floor but youd have the root system suspended in these 10 ft columns down in the basement getting misted. i wonder if the mist would reach the bottom of the 10 ft column. 
they are even self draining and see thru so you could check on the roots. just keep the lights out in the room unless you wanted a peak of the roots. i know it sounds crazy but i bet it would work nice. of coarse its not very practical using two floors (one for roots and one for plants) but alot of things i(we) DO arent practical. imagine walking into a basement with nothing but these columns hanging down.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 28, 2009)

They are pretty cheap considering what they are, 10ft of root depth sounds nice. The basement section of tube would probably be a perfect temperature for roots. The mist might make it that far depending on the humidity and temperature in the tube..droplet evaporation is likely to be the limiting factor. 
With some fan assist, you may get away with the nozzles at the bottom, the bonus here is that larger droplets are too heavy to travel any great distance against gravity so only the smallest size would make it upto the top..assuming they didn`t evaporate on the way that is


----------



## travish413 (Nov 28, 2009)

Ok everybody,
You all have had some great info on aeroponics. I have been thinking for years that just a mist of water sprayed on the roots was aero but wasnt aware of the droplet size and psi that you need. Just have only seen low pressure systems until I came across this thread. Im glad i did. If I do something I want to do it right and aero is the route I am wanting to take for my next grow. I was thinking about buying this http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=22 but just dont want to drop 3 of 4 thousand on something that I cant get my hands on first. Wish I could see it and see what all those add ons which make it so expensive actually do and if they are really needed. I already have ro water so I dont need that. I dont know why they say you need a cycle timer and a hydroponic controller? I thought they were basically the same thing... Anyway, I think I am going to buy a hp pump that is capable of atleast 100 psi and try to build atomizers idea of the telescoping grow chamber. Great idea! What is yalls opinon on the hp system that i linked. Is it worth it or should i diy my own method. Im handy and can build about anything but am new to this hp aero but really intrigues me. Thanks for any input!


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 28, 2009)

Hi travish413,
You could build a pumped hp or even a compressor based air assisted aero system for considerably less. I don`t see how they can justify the $3300 price tag.. its all smoke and mirrors


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi travish413,
> You could build a pumped hp or even a compressor based air assisted aero system for considerably less. I don`t see how they can justify the $3300 price tag.. its all smoke and mirrors


 Thanks alot man! I was thinking the same thing but I just got caught up by their web site and I even spoke with them and they told me that I should by all my equipment from them bc it comes with all the fittings...what like I cant figure out how to connect misters to a tube... they have an accumulator tank that is 200 dollars and you can buy the same tank at lowes for 40. Thanks again and I'll be building a version of your telescoping idea tomorrow. I'll post pics when i am done.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

Ugh a rotary vane pump, likely a double float switch for an auto top off solenoid valve, a stand, a house hold captive air water storage tank, a small plastic reservoir, some inline filters, a cheap RO filter (maybe) misters, timer, temperature controller (I assume for a heater or fan), common plubing connect hoses covered with braided sy tainless steel, electric solenoid for delivered pressurized water and trays for over $3000. They must be in partenership with Advanced Nutrients with a price like that. Rotary vein pumps are really not a very good choice. It would be nice to have no copper or brass in the system if possible. Nearly all small capicity highpressure rotary vein pumps are brass.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> one time i wanted to take some of these http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/934/Transparent-Tanks/shrimp%20brine/0 and put them in a basement and cut a hole in the floor above and stick them up to the ground floor. put a net pot in the top and misters down along the tube that would be in the basement. so youd have the grow on the main floor but youd have the root system suspended in these 10 ft columns down in the basement getting misted. i wonder if the mist would reach the bottom of the 10 ft column.
> they are even self draining and see thru so you could check on the roots. just keep the lights out in the room unless you wanted a peak of the roots. i know it sounds crazy but i bet it would work nice. of coarse its not very practical using two floors (one for roots and one for plants) but alot of things i(we) DO arent practical. imagine walking into a basement with nothing but these columns hanging down.


Big bucks for the Aquatic Eco-systems tubing and you would have to paint it any way to keep the light from the roots. I would just use some cheap FRP paneling from Home Depot or Lowes. About $23 for a 84' by 8' sheet or $28 for a 4' by 10'. Figure a 1" overlap for joining the edges, so (47/3.1416) = 14.9 inch diamter tube of fiber reinforced plastic. If you want it stronger just glue two layers together with contact cement.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 29, 2009)

A cheap option could be layflat poly tubing they use for ventilation in tunnels, a 330ft roll costs pennies, all you`d need is some hoops to keep it open. 
I didn`t notice the rotary vane pump, $3300 for essentially a glorified espresso machine


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Ok, I just went to lowes and bought a 1hp lawn pump. It says it will maintain a pressure of 70 psi. I also got a 5 gallon diaphram tank rated at 100 psi. Do i need to install a relief valve or what should I install between the pump and the tank. They had switches to shut the pump of at 60psi and turn it on at 40psi but I wanted to get the most pressure I could so I didnt purchase one. So how would yall set this up? The guy at lowes said i would be ok with out anything bc the pump wasnt big enough to blow the tank but i am just concerned with maintaining my pressure. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Here is the pump i bought http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=24840-48284-58418-LWS1&lpage=none and here is the tank http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=160659-48324-LPT-5&lpage=none. The tank is the same brand as the pump but basically the the same tank. I wasnt sure if i needed any kind of relief valve since my pump will only maintain 70 psi. And should I return this pump and go bigger? Or should i get good results out of this pump?


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 29, 2009)

you need a pressure switch to control the pump. most pressure switches are adjustable so even though its a 60-40psi switch it can be adjusted to a higher setting like 70-50psi. the range the pump you bought works in. the pump plumbes into the pressure tank with a tee. do a search for pressure tank installation and it will show you how to hook up the pump to the tank. it will also show you how to hook up the pressure switch that will control the pump. now you need some way to control the flow out of the pressure tank and thats done with a solenoid valve thats controlled by a repeat cycle timer. thats what biocontrols hydro controllers are. ( a solenoid with a repeat cycle timer)then just run the line to a distribution manifold that splits up the flow to however many misters you are going to run.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 29, 2009)

travish413 said:


> Here is the pump i bought http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=24840-48284-58418-LWS1&lpage=none and here is the tank http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=160659-48324-LPT-5&lpage=none. The tank is the same brand as the pump but basically the the same tank. I wasnt sure if i needed any kind of relief valve since my pump will only maintain 70 psi. And should I return this pump and go bigger? Or should i get good results out of this pump?


that pump will work and run alot of misters but the tank you got is pretty small for that large pump. ive used pumps like that with 20-40 gallon tanks. the tank is just to small to work decent with that pump. the pump will fill the thing in less that a minute. it will probably cause the pump to cycle on and off rapidly if you can get it to work at all. it says 5 gallon tank but that means it will only acutually hold about 1 gallon of water the rest is filled up with the air bladder.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> that pump will work and run alot of misters but the tank you got is pretty small for that large pump. ive used pumps like that with 20-40 gallon tanks. the tank is just to small to work decent with that pump. the pump will fill the thing in less that a minute. it will probably cause the pump to cycle on and off rapidly if you can get it to work at all. it says 5 gallon tank but that means it will only acutually hold about 1 gallon of water the rest is filled up with the air bladder.


 Ok, thanks for that info! I read where you said that the bigger tanks were caking up with stuff so thats why i went with the smaller tank. Should i return it or run 3 or 4 of these connected together?


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

I imagine the caking is usually associated with heating of the water by pumping not the tank size itself. If so that is an aspect of the pump not the tank. If you heat soluble calcium it precipitates. Precipitaion is always a result of an over abundance of acids (carbonic) OH- or H+ (pH problems) or heat etc. There is always a related cause and an effect for an ion to form a precipitate. Greater fluid volume should not be a cause. He is definitely right about an oversized pump tank cycling to much with a small captive air tank.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Thanks to everyone for all the help! I really want to do this right and when i say i grow aero i really want to mean it. I just got back from lowes and bought a 20 gallon tank. Now for the cycle timer... Any suggestions on what brand or links to what else I should order. Like I said all of yalls help is greatly appreciated!


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 29, 2009)

Ideally you need to attack the design from the ground up otherwise you could be flying blind. Its best to sit down and work out the system required to do the job.. even though the temptation to rush out to buy stuff is strong 

Start by ask yourself the basic questions; how big is the grow going to be? That will determines the number of nozzles, which determines the required flowrate and pressure. From those you can calculate/decide on the tank/pump size combo to fit the bill. All components are interrelated..a small pump can be offset by a large accumulator tank capacity to run a very large system.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Ideally you need to attack the design from the ground up otherwise you could be flying blind. Its best to sit down and work out the system required to do the job.. even though the temptation to rush out to buy stuff is strong
> 
> Start by ask yourself the basic questions; how big is the grow going to be? That will determines the number of nozzles, which determines the required flowrate and pressure. From those you can calculate/decide on the tank/pump size combo to fit the bill. All components are interrelated..a small pump can be offset by a large accumulator tank capacity to run a very large system.


 Ok, I am growing in a dr150 tent which is 5x5x7. I plan on trying to get about 20 to 30 plants and run 1 mister per plant. Will this work or what can I run with the pump and tank that i have. tree farmer said i could run 20 to 40 misters but with a 20 gallon tank is 40 possible? I actually want to run as many misters as possible. What would be the max do you think?


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Is this what I need http://www.pexsupply.com/Watts-0386422-SB1156F-1-2-Bronze-High-Capacity-Feed-Water-Pressure-Regulator-12824000-p along with a cycle timer or should I buy the hydro controller with the digital timer from biocontrols which is this http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=19. It says it will only run up to 6 misters. I think thats if you dont have a hp tank. I am sorry for my ignorance but thank yall again for the help. kiss-ass


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 29, 2009)

Its good to ask questions and seek advice, i wish i`d had someone to ask.. it would`ve saved me a lot of trial and error and dead ends 
You need a pressure switch to sense the pressure in the line from the pump to solenoid with the accumulator tee`d off the line. Something like this one from mercoid (dwyer) looks like a good choice, http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/499877 
Hp aero components aren`t that expensive as you can see by the $19 price tag, the trick is knowing what to buy 

Heres a link to the PS pdf, model #CXA-S3 (NC) 35-150psi range with a 30-40psi deadband or possibly the CXA-S2 if you want a tighter 20psi deadband.
http://www.dwyer-inst.com/PDF_files/CXA_cat.pdf

A cycle timer and solenoid wont cost anything close to $259, don`t buy it from the BC site, i`ll bet that one uses a cheap vibratory coffee machine pump


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

With high pressure aero you are essentially doing the same thing as with an air atomized system. That is your filling a chamber with a cloud of small droplets intermittantly rather than trying to spray each plants roots with a separate sprayer as in low or medium pressure aero in tubes. Consider that an air atomizer is usually able to emit the same droplet size but in a larger volume than the typical high pressure low volume spray heads used in a high pressure aero. This just meas using less spray heads but delivering the same volume for the same chamber volume. There is also more adjustability but at a very large cost as an atomizer cost much more than a high pressure sparay head. 

Using small aero 3" to 6" tubes instead of a chamber would not allow the easy spread of droplets in a cloud as in a largely open chamber. So while very short intermittant high pressure aero might still get the small droplet watering effect on a small part of the roots, the larger percentage of the roots laying horizontally in the bottom of the tubes would not get the better effect that the hanging hair roots in a deep chamber would receive. So really I can't see much advantage to a high pressure in aero tubes over the cost of just medium pressure intermittant set up. The slight advantage of the smaller droplet size in the cramped confines of small tubes with the largest part of the root mass laying on the bottom of the tubes would not offset the costs of the high pressure systems tank, pressure switch, pressure reduction valve, pressure relief valve. 

I think the high pressure system used in chambers can easily recoup the cots due to vastly inproved performance verus medium pressure aero or low pressure aero in tubes. I think it can very easily recoup its costs versus DWC, regular hydro, bubbleponics etc. I myself have not yet gotten personal emperical proof to back up my opinions yet but it is avialable on line on other sites. I am investing a ggod bit of money and time into seeing how well I can get a atomizer system to perform in a drain to waste system. When I figure in what I spend on chillers, pH controllers, EC controllers, auto water top off sytems etc, etc that I won't need I think the pay back of the atomizers systems will be quite quick and less prone to failures. The worse possible component failure would be a compressor and I can live with the cost of a redundant compressor, or even a full redundant atomizer-compressor-timer system if the performance turns out to be as good as I have read in other forums.


----------



## tree farmer (Nov 29, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> With high pressure aero you are essentially doing the same thing as with an air atomized system. That is your filling a chamber with a cloud of small droplets intermittantly rather than trying to spray each plants roots with a separate sprayer as in low or medium pressure aero in tubes. Consider that an air atomizer is usually able to emit the same droplet size but in a larger volume than the typical high pressure low volume spray heads used in a high pressure aero. This just meas using less spray heads but delivering the same volume for the same chamber volume. There is also more adjustability but at a very large cost as an atomizer cost much more than a high pressure sparay head.
> 
> Using small aero 3" to 6" tubes instead of a chamber would not allow the easy spread of droplets in a cloud as in a largely open chamber. So while very short intermittant high pressure aero might still get the small droplet watering effect on a small part of the roots, the larger percentage of the roots laying horizontally in the bottom of the tubes would not get the better effect that the hanging hair roots in a deep chamber would receive. So really I can't see much advantage to a high pressure in aero tubes over the cost of just medium pressure intermittant set up. The slight advantage of the smaller droplet size in the cramped confines of small tubes with the largest part of the root mass laying on the bottom of the tubes would not offset the costs of the high pressure systems tank, pressure switch, pressure reduction valve, pressure relief valve.
> 
> I think the high pressure system used in chambers can easily recoup the cots due to vastly inproved performance verus medium pressure aero or low pressure aero in tubes. I think it can very easily recoup its costs versus DWC, regular hydro, bubbleponics etc. I myself have not yet gotten personal emperical proof to back up my opinions yet but it is avialable on line on other sites. I am investing a ggod bit of money and time into seeing how well I can get a atomizer system to perform in a drain to waste system. When I figure in what I spend on chillers, pH controllers, EC controllers, auto water top off sytems etc, etc that I won't need I think the pay back of the atomizers systems will be quite quick and less prone to failures. The worse possible component failure would be a compressor and I can live with the cost of a redundant compressor, or even a full redundant atomizer-compressor-timer system if the performance turns out to be as good as I have read in other forums.


from what i have learned so far from this system ,drain to waste would work well since i am misting so little and there is very little run off anyway. im using only about 5 gallons aday when you break the mist cycles down. of that 5 gallons approximately 2 gallons is used, so that would only be 3 gallons a day actually wasted. Ec levels are very low so nutes dont figure much for cost. what does suck though is making the 5 gallons a day because of the waste effect of making RO water.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

The controller does not contain a pressure regulator it is merely a cycle timer it does not evem n control each mister seperately. A Plastic pressure reducer valves are available cheaply on eBay. He previously accepted my offer of $15 each. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220142623512&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

The cycle timer I use for other application that would work very well is the industrial Omron Multi-Function Timer H5CXA. They retail for about $150. I buy them on eaby when the come up usually for about $75 each. They seldom come up on ebay. Time ranges: 0.001 s to 9.999 s, 0.01 s to 99.99 s, 0.1 s to 999.9 s, 1 s to 9999 s, 0.1 min to 999.9 min, 1 min to 9999 min, 0.1 h to 999.9 h, 1 h to 9999 h , 1s to 99min59s , 1min to 99h59min.
http://www.ia.omron.com/product/item/h5cx4004g/index.html
I have put over four dozen into use in the last four years and have never had one go bad. I use them on my coral reef tanks and I use only the best controls with them.

1/4" stainless sttel solenoid valve: http://cgi.ebay.com/SOLENOID-VALVE-ASCO-8262C62-1-4-STAINLESS-STEEL_W0QQitemZ170412744875QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item27ad6420ab

Just keeping an eye on eBay can make a huge difference in costs.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> from what i have learned so far from this system ,drain to waste would work well since i am misting so little and there is very little run off anyway. im using only about 5 gallons aday when you break the mist cycles down. of that 5 gallons approximately 2 gallons is used, so that would only be 3 gallons a day actually wasted. Ec levels are very low so nutes dont figure much for cost. what does suck though is making the 5 gallons a day because of the waste effect of making RO water.


I understand that. I mix my own nutrients so they are cheap but my RO water cost is higher than the nutrient fertilzer cost. I use a commercial RO filter taht only wastes about 1/3 gallon of water making 1 gallon of RO water but my water cotst at the tap is 4 cents a gallon. My fertilizer cost is with an EC of 900 only $0.018 so with an atomized system at an even lower EC the water costs $0.053 will defintely be higher.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Its good to ask questions and seek advice, i wish i`d had someone to ask.. it would`ve saved me a lot of trial and error and dead ends
> You need a pressure switch to sense the pressure in the line from the pump to solenoid with the accumulator tee`d off the line. Something like this one from mercoid (dwyer) looks like a good choice, http://news.thomasnet.com/fullstory/499877
> Hp aero components aren`t that expensive as you can see by the $19 price tag, the trick is knowing what to buy
> 
> ...


 So I just ordered that and now need a cycle timer I assume. I think I can find one but if you have one that you would suggest I am all ears.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 29, 2009)

If you are stateside i think TF or fatman7574 would be the ones to ask, nothing better than local knowledge for finding the bargains


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

There are two of the Omron Multi Function Timers selling as a pair on ebay for $150. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270489501128&ssPageName=ADME:X:AAQ:US:1123

They retail for at least double that price. Here is a retailer that wants $150 each: http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?Detail&name=Z1645-ND


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> If you are stateside i think TF or fatman7574 would be the ones to ask, nothing better than local knowledge for finding the bargains


 OK, thanks again for all the help. I will be working on getting this all hooked up and post pics when i am done. Hope is soon!


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 29, 2009)

A timer with a 0-5 second pulse is more than plenty, the pause timing range should be at least 0-5 mins.
I didn`t see any spec on the accumulator regarding working pressure so it might pay to check that out to make sure its safe. 
Other things to consider are which nozzles you plan to use and the working pressure range of the system (pump cut in & cut out pressures). Once armed with the info, along with the cycle timing, you can calculate the drawdown time on the tank and work out how long the pump runs for and how often.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

I just found this timer and thought it was a good deal http://www.horticulturesource.com/sunlight-supply-encore-repeat-cycle-timer-15-amp-p1973/?osCsid=2f45e347210c1624d10cfaa36f0618f1
So, this and the pressure regulator and hook these http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/item.asp?itemid=55 up and i should be good? I plan on buying them from someone else but want to use these misters.


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 29, 2009)

you need something completely variable that will adjust down to 1 second  
Something like this: http://www.4hydroponics.com/grow_room/capARTtimer.asp

The nozzles 0.04 oz/sec works out to about 4.25LPH, perhaps more at 100 psi. I`m pretty sure the nozzles TF uses are available in that flowrate and pressure too.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 29, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> you need something completely variable that will adjust down to 1 second
> Something like this: http://www.4hydroponics.com/grow_room/capARTtimer.asp


 Ok I think I got it now. thanks again! You've been alot of help! I will probably have more questions once i start hooking everything up. Hope you dont mind. BTW I got some white widow on the way gonna grow some mothers while i setting this system up and take clones when I am done with the set up.


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 29, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> you need something completely variable that will adjust down to 1 second
> Something like this: http://www.4hydroponics.com/grow_room/capARTtimer.asp


Pretty good price. That is suprising for C.A.P., usually they want top dollar for every thing they sell. Nice simple manual dials and prewired. Less versatility but good enough. The Omron will allow for more than one interavl function such as it will allow for sepearte cycles for when the lights are off if you wish so. The digital programing is more difficult, a PITA really, and it is not prewired. Pretty digital LED readouts though. On board memory and auto reset from power outages etc. But nearly twice the price retail.

*1 gallon per hour high pressure misters for $0.74 each. TF gave me the link about 20 pages back*.

http://www.dripirrigation.com/index.php?cPath=43&sort=2a&page=3


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 30, 2009)

These links could help with adjusting the external pressure switch or precharging the accumulator with air. They can be daunting tasks if you`ve never done it before.

http://www.inspectapedia.com/water/WaterPumpAdjust.htm
http://www.inspectapedia.com/water/Water_Tank_Bladder_Adjust.htm


----------



## travish413 (Nov 30, 2009)

I came across this on the home depot site. could this be used or is it to much. its max psi is 1000 http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5/R-100485941/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


----------



## fatman7574 (Nov 30, 2009)

I can't fathom the system. I down loaded what they call a manual which is just brochure and they show it as handling from twelve 0.014 nozzles to fourty-five 0.008 nozzles. 1 gpm through a 1/4" nylon tubing for a feeder line to the nozzles. 3/4 horse power electric motor. That would feed a good size green house. It is actually made to be used to spray a mist on steel buildings to keep the metal siding and roof cool through evaporative cooling. They are used a lot in agriculture for chicken annd turkey factories. Definitely over kill for the nearly all pot growers. Can you imagine shutting the flow through a nylon line with a fast acting solenoid with the tubing being pressurized to 1000 psi. They show the tubing being attached with a simple compression fitting. Bet that would be quite a pop.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 30, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> I can't fathom the system. I down loaded what they call a manual which is just brochure and they show it as handling from twelve 0.014 nozzles to fourty-five 0.008 nozzles. 1 gpm through a 1/4" nylon tubing for a feeder line to the nozzles. 3/4 horse power electric motor. That would feed a good size green house. It is actually made to be used to spray a mist on steel buildings to keep the metal siding and roof cool through evaporative cooling. They are used a lot in agriculture for chicken annd turkey factories. Definitely over kill for the nearly all pot growers. Can you imagine shutting the flow through a nylon line with a fast acting solenoid with the tubing being pressurized to 1000 psi. They show the tubing being attached with a simple compression fitting. Bet that would be quite a pop.


Thats kinda what i thought too, but i wish it would show how low you could set the psi. I went to my local home depot and they dont carry them so all the info i have is from that site.


----------



## travish413 (Nov 30, 2009)

So if i hook this http://www.homedepot.com/Outdoors-Garden-Center-Irrigation/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xppZapw5/R-100197371/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053 to the cycle timer coming off of the tank will that work right?


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 30, 2009)

68 bar pressure, it could double up as a pressure washer  
Its brass which isnt good, not forgetting the noise it might make.. i`d get moaned at bigtime if i fired my pressure washer up at 3am


----------



## travish413 (Nov 30, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> 68 bar pressure, it could double up as a pressure washer
> Its brass which isnt good, not forgetting the noise it might make.. i`d get moaned at bigtime if i fired my pressure washer up at 3am


 Ok I am having a really hard time with this... So, I have a sprinkler pump that will maintain 70 psi and a 20 gallon acc tank. My room is 5x5 so I think I am going to build a 4x4 grow chamber that is about 24 to 30 inches tall. How many misters would you run and what kind of regulater? I orderd the regulater you linked me to but it wont be here til january so I am just going to buy one at a local hardware store, but your input would be greatly appreciated!


----------



## travish413 (Nov 30, 2009)

I just purchased my pump and tank and can return them if need be. I dont know if I went overkill but i think i was not using a big enough pump since tree farmers pump was capable of 150 psi. I want to us the 1 gph misters/foggers or I liked the ones that atomizer uses with the egg shape. Since i am going to be growing in a big chamber i thought those might be better but i wanted to stay in that 50 or better micron level. Maybe I will have this figured out soon Its a whole new world compared to any other system but I like it bc I think ppl are too scared to try and tackle it. I wouldnt be able to if it wasnt for all yalls help. If I could share the rewards I reap off this system I would do so in a hear beat!


----------



## Atomizer (Nov 30, 2009)

Hi Travish
All setups are slightly different (layout, nozzle type and orientation, pressure used etc) so its hard to come up with a one size fits all.
For a 4x4 chamber that deep i`d be tempted to use 9 nozzles on a 1ft x 1ft grid, suspended 6" off the chamber floor, firing upwards. If you divide the chamber into 1ft x 1ft grid each nozzle will cover 4 root sites with some overlap.
I`m going by the nozzles i use as i know what pattern they generate and how far they throw, other nozzles would be different. 
When figuring what size the pump/tank needs to be, i gear everything to handle a 1 sec on/60 second off cycle just as a design reference.
Here are the theoretical calculations for a 9 nozzle system. It doesnt take account for any mist run on or changes in nozzle output versus pressure. I`ll base it on my nozzles and pressures (64-92psi) and your 20gal accumulator. 

9 nozzles in a perfect world will deliver a total of 16.875ml in one second to the root chamber in a 1x1 grid.
With a 64psi cut-in and 92psi cut-out, the 20 gal accumulator has a drawdown volume of approx 19.8L (~5.25 US Gal)

Using the 1 sec/ 60 sec cycle, it`ll take approx 20 hours for the tank to drop from 92psi to 64 psi at which point the pump kicks in to put 19.8L back in the accumulator at 92psi. With TF`s cycle time of 2 sec/6 mins the tank drawdown time increases to around 59 hours. HP aero doesn`t need much of a pump  

With the 1sec/60 sec cycle you deliver 1LPH to the chamber or 6.31 us gal/day.. that`s maybe 6x the amount TF is running into each of his chambers


----------



## travish413 (Nov 30, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Travish
> All setups are slightly different (layout, nozzle type and orientation, pressure used etc) so its hard to come up with a one size fits all.
> For a 4x4 chamber that deep i`d be tempted to use 9 nozzles on a 1ft x 1ft grid, suspended 6" off the chamber floor, firing upwards. If you divide the chamber into 1ft x 1ft grid each nozzle will cover 4 root sites with some overlap.
> I`m going by the nozzles i use as i know what pattern they generate and how far they throw, other nozzles would be different.
> ...


 That sounds good! I am off work tomorrow and will try to get my grow chamber built. I have some white widow seeds on the way. I plan on growing some mothers and taking clones but I'll start a journal and show yall my progress. Thanks again for all the help!


----------



## travish413 (Nov 30, 2009)

I had an idea and was just curious if any of yall have thought of it or tried it. Im playing around with hho boosters and installing them on mine and my friends cars. How do you think the roots would respond to hho being pumped into the chamber? It makes since with the thought that plants need water and water is h20 so would hydrogen gas be harmful or do you think it would actually help? Just a thought and wanted yalls opinon.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 1, 2009)

A 1000L black ibc tank without the cage would make a nice 4x4 root chamber or maybe two, cut it down to the height you need.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 1, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> A 1000L black ibc tank without the cage would make a nice 4x4 root chamber or maybe two, cut it down to the height you need.


 Ibc tank?? not sure what that is. I'll google it and see. I was going to do it the hard way. Some OSB and pond liner...


----------



## travish413 (Dec 1, 2009)

travish413 said:


> Ibc tank?? not sure what that is. I'll google it and see. I was going to do it the hard way. Some OSB and pond liner...


 Just saw a pic of one. Yeah that would be perfect. I dont know if i can find one where i live though, unless I drive 100 miles... I live kinda off the beatin path


----------



## Treeth (Dec 1, 2009)

hey TF and ATO!

guess who got their delevan parts today!?

Thats right. _This guy_. 

I'll post some pics when I get everything running in a week or two, now that I have each critical part,

run to waste nutes included.


----------



## jakethetank (Dec 1, 2009)

that thing is fucken awesome


----------



## travish413 (Dec 1, 2009)

When filling an accumulator tank with a pump does the pump have to be able to reach 100 psi to fill the tank at this pressure or will any pump reach 100 psi eventually just take longer if it insnt very big? I have a 20 gallon tank and returned my pump bc it said it would only maintain 70 psi so i didnt think it would be able to pressurize my tank to 100 psi... I am hung up on what kind of pump to use... I would prefer to use a large aquarium pump so it wouldnt be so loud but didnt know if this would get the pressure that i needed. I plan on using 9 to 12 nozzles at 1gph.
Thanks for any advice!


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 1, 2009)

Iwaki puts out about the highets pressure pumps typically used with aquariums. Their fracion hp magnetic pump lines maximum pressure pumps are the MD-70RZT at 42.7 psi and a flow of 11.4 gallon per minute, or the smaller MD-30RZT at 24.2 psi and a flow rate of 4.5 ga;llons per minute. you would use thm without accumallator tanks and would run them cosnstant with solenoids. I use them on aero tubes. They put out a finer mist than the low pressure pumps and use the same misters but they put out a larger droplet size and less flow than the HP pumps provides through the same misters. I just refer to itas a medium pressure inre termittant aero sytem. I use soleniods on a timer so that for 5 seconds on and 30 seconds off. The droplets size is large enough that the fog/mist is gone in just a few seconds. It would likely work better in a chamber but I doubt that the 20 to 45 psi could ever provide the mist put out by the high pressure pumps or the air atomizers. Iwaki pumps are not cheap. I have been lucky enough to buy all of mine on eBay but retail they sell for $300 for the MD-30RZT and about $450 for the MD-70RZT. Basically it is just system in between a low pressure and a high pressure system both in performance and cost.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 1, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Iwaki puts out about the highets pressure pumps typically used with aquariums. Their fracion hp magnetic pump lines maximum pressure pumps are the MD-70RZT at 42.7 psi and a flow of 11.4 gallon per minute, or the smaller MD-30RZT at 24.2 psi and a flow rate of 4.5 ga;llons per minute. you would use thm without accumallator tanks and would run them cosnstant with solenoids. I use them on aero tubes. They put out a finer mist than the low pressure pumps and use the same misters but they put out a larger droplet size and less flow than the HP pumps provides through the same misters. I just refer to itas a medium pressure inre termittant aero sytem. I use soleniods on a timer so that for 5 seconds on and 30 seconds off. The droplets size is large enough that the fog/mist is gone in just a few seconds. It would likely work better in a chamber but I doubt that the 20 to 45 psi could ever provide the mist put out by the high pressure pumps or the air atomizers. Iwaki pumps are not cheap. I have been lucky enough to buy all of mine on eBay but retail they sell for $300 for the MD-30RZT and about $450 for the MD-70RZT. Basically it is just system in between a low pressure and a high pressure system both in performance and cost.


 What do yall think of the ultrasonic foggers. I found one that was around 160 dollars and produced 3000ml an hour... Thats about 18 gallons a day... I was thinking of using the method without the tank and try these foggers with the misters. Whats your take on that idea?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 1, 2009)

Treeth said:


> hey TF and ATO!
> 
> guess who got their delevan parts today!?
> 
> ...


Nice one Treeth, you must feel like xmas has come early


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 1, 2009)

Treeth said:


> hey TF and ATO!
> 
> guess who got their delevan parts today!?
> 
> ...


we want nozzel pics


----------



## Treeth (Dec 2, 2009)

> we want nozzel pics


-Really wanted to hear that!


----------



## Treeth (Dec 2, 2009)

sexy _and _phallic!


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 2, 2009)

Treeth said:


> -Really wanted to hear that!


 those are going to be fun


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 2, 2009)

How did you finally get Stephen to take your order? He sent me a email with a quote and some PDFs with some copies of order forms info, but did not say where to send them. He does not return phone calls or emails. He wrote I can order on line or from him but the urls are just the Delavan catalog sites and they seem to provide no way of ordering on line. Did you order from Stephen or an online site from Delavan rather than Stephen at Goodrich. What size did you end up ordering.


----------



## Treeth (Dec 2, 2009)

The first time I contacted Steven, thats what I wanted... A link to a distributor. What Steven immediately did was to refer me to the most geographically proximal machine shop which is allowed to hold the Delavan design specifications. Only after that did I try to ask Stephen if he possessed _inventory_, which he flat out denied having. I'd be happy to link privately to the sales representative who took my order. I paid 339.98 _pesos_ for my 4 examples, shipped, (nozzles and adapters). 

I ended up getting metering size 11, which I think was nearly the 'largest', I cant remember what was 'appealing' about the flow/gravity head chart...

And I really didn't know to ask for any opinions on it, why fatman,

What were your thoughts?

-Oh yeah! And I was pissed that the date on _none _of my pieces was 2009! I thought I paid for them to be machined just for me in a production run of four! 

I love production.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 2, 2009)

I had to scroll all over to see everything with the 3072 × 2304 resolution lol but they look great. Four nozzles will generate a lot of mist. I can`t wait to see them in action, you may start a brand new trend.. mist porn 

340 pesos? thats about £16 for 4.. i must be missing something 

I came across these nozzles at $24 each..could be useful as spares perhaps? 
http://us.ebid.net/perl/main.cgi?type1=a&type2=a&cat=298496&mo=user-store&title=WasteOilFurnace-Parts


----------



## travish413 (Dec 3, 2009)

What do yall think about installing this http://www.waterfiltersonline.com/detail.asp?product_id=tds-meter-inline-2 after the accumulator tank just to keep a check on the nutrients after they have set in the tank. Good idea or do yall think there is any changes to the nutes after they set in the tank for a while?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 3, 2009)

I like the pushfits, it would be worth checking with the makers if it can handle high pressure (100psi) and whether it would affect the readings... I can`t think why it would but you never know.
I haven`t noticed any detrimental effects with nutes under pressure but TF had some issues with caked up pipework. I`m not sure if it was tank related or due to nutes sitting though.


----------



## Treeth (Dec 3, 2009)

I was being facetious about the value of the american dollar.

Good find! Ato, I could have saved on that website, if you can also find the adapters...

"Thank you for your order for (4) Delavan SN nozzles at $42.41 each and (4) Delavan adaptors at $39.95 each"

... The part number for them is 17147-1


----------



## travish413 (Dec 3, 2009)

Yeah I like it too and the price isnt that bad either. I was wondering what orfice size yall are using. I am looking at different ones and trying to decide. The ones I have seen are either .016 or .025, which size would yall choose for the 80 to 100 psi range?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 3, 2009)

Hi Treeth
Sorry it came too late to save you some $$$, at least you`ll know where to find them if you need some more. I haven`t come across any adapters but if i do i`ll let you know.

Hi Travish
mine are 0.62mm which are equivalent to 0.025", it can get confusing converting from one thing to another. For the biocontrol nozzles I had to use an online convertor to figure how many ml`s was in a us fl oz 
I found the nozzle flowrate varies with pressure, the spec on mine is 4.9LPH alledgedly at 3bar and 5.5LPH at 4bar, i tested the flowrate at 6.5bar and they do 6.75LPH. The biocontrols do 0.08 us.fl.oz/sec which equates to 8.51LPH, if thats geared to 80psi it`ll probably put out slightly more at 100.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 3, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Treeth
> Sorry it came too late to save you some $$$, at least you`ll know where to find them if you need some more. I haven`t come across any adapters but if i do i`ll let you know.
> 
> Hi Travish
> ...


 As bad as I hate to order from bc i think i am going to purchase their .016" spray jets... The specs show .04 oz a sec so that would be around the 1 gallon per hour if my math is right... I found some mister/foggers on this web site http://www.ezmister.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=10&Itemid=25 and as you can see their specs show .55 gallons at 100 psi. I contacted them and they said they had some that had a smaller orfice size that wasnt on the site for $3.25 ea. But that is just for the fogger alone not the fittings. So I am debating on really which of these I want to go with


----------



## travish413 (Dec 3, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I like the pushfits, it would be worth checking with the makers if it can handle high pressure (100psi) and whether it would affect the readings... I can`t think why it would but you never know.
> I haven`t noticed any detrimental effects with nutes under pressure but TF had some issues with caked up pipework. I`m not sure if it was tank related or due to nutes sitting though.


Im thinking about getting one of these tds meters http://www.waterfiltersonline.com/de...meter-inline-2 and running a feed line from the main line between my nutrient resevoir and pump and looping the feed line back to the main line... Make sense? These meters are half the price of any others that I have found. Do yall see any problems with that besides the psi being a issue with the readings? I guess I would still need to get a probe atleast to measure my nutes before they get pumped into the system. But it would keep a constant check on them. Any opinions?


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 3, 2009)

i hope your not going to put those 4 nozzels in just one chamber. unless its a big chamber.

ive spent 2 days trying to find a pump just like the one i have and it has been frustrating to say the least. alls i want to do is buy a pump. how hard can that be. well the pump i have now isnt made supposedly anymore and no one seems to be able to tell me the specs on the replacement model and whether it has an external bypass. i even talked to shurflo rep (if you can call them that. i knew more than this guy about pumps)and they are uncertain. what a joke sell a product and dont know anything about it. i found a website that has some but no number to call and they dont answer email so im not buying. the pump i have is working great and thats why i wanted to get another one for when this one dies. hopefully someone willc ome thru. you know it takes longer to find this stuff than it takes to build.

the bio nozzels have been working fine. ive only had one go bad so far. didnt try to fix it just replaced it. running such low concentrations of nutes with HP really helps with the nozzels staying clear i suspect.

i wonder if those fuel oil nozzels have the same mist data. they sure are cheap enough.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 3, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I like the pushfits, it would be worth checking with the makers if it can handle high pressure (100psi) and whether it would affect the readings... I can`t think why it would but you never know.
> I haven`t noticed any detrimental effects with nutes under pressure but TF had some issues with caked up pipework. I`m not sure if it was tank related or due to nutes sitting though.


now that i think back when i had the caking issues. i was running LP aero with very high ec levels. i dont think you would have that problem with a bigger tank at the ec levels that HP runs at.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 3, 2009)

I know stuff can precipitate out of solution at higher ph, theres no data i can find on precipitation due to pressure. I would guess that nutes under pressure in an airtight tank are in a preserved state much like a bottle of coke or can of beans so its likely any change will be slower than a normal res exposed to the air..could be completely wrong though 

Most nozzles give you the flowrate and pressure specs but little else to make comparisons. Things like a narrow pattern or short throw could mean using more nozzles to get the same coverage. Small orifice nozzles tend to clog easier although low EC may offset it. 
I don`t think a one size fits all nozzle exists as the shape of the chamber probably dictates the best nozzle for the job. A wide angle, short throw nozzle may be ideal in a wide shallow chamber but not so good in a long deep chamber.
Might be best to buy one of each to test and then decide 

It seems the nozzles can be used for fuel or water, the 30609-11 nozzle spec is the last one on the pdf
http://www.delavan.co.uk/pdfs/SN.pdf


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 4, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I know stuff can precipitate out of solution at higher ph, theres no data i can find on precipitation due to pressure. I would guess that nutes under pressure in an airtight tank are in a preserved state much like a bottle of coke or can of beans so its likely any change will be slower than a normal res exposed to the air..could be completely wrong though
> 
> Most nozzles give you the flowrate and pressure specs but little else to make comparisons. Things like a narrow pattern or short throw could mean using more nozzles to get the same coverage. Small orifice nozzles tend to clog easier although low EC may offset it.
> I don`t think a one size fits all nozzle exists as the shape of the chamber probably dictates the best nozzle for the job. A wide angle, short throw nozzle may be ideal in a wide shallow chamber but not so good in a long deep chamber.
> ...


What I had intended to orde was two 10's and two 6's. I figure I can order four brass for less than the two 10's I was going to order in stainless steel. Once I see how they perform in a 9 square foot cell, I will decide which to order in stailess. The brass ones I will use for cloning and stand bys as I want to use stainless steel with the pods using nutrients. 

I have even left two phone messages for Stephen but no return calls.

Where I have had carbonate precipitation is any where where any heat builds up. Meaning at pump entrances and discharges. Any place where there are restrictions such as a 1/2 valve with a 1/4 orifice. Sharp bends and 90 degree fittings. It doesn't take much heat to cause soluble calcium to precipitate.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 4, 2009)

There are some delavan 30609 nozzles on ebay, #28 and #5 suffix at $19 + $4.95 shipping


ok scrap that one, looks like i may have found the mother load  
30609 nozzles (suffixes 2,3,4,5,7,8.9 &11) and 17147 adapters.. all at ~$24 each plus the shipping
http://www.patriot-supply.com/search_new.cfm?q=17147&search=Go


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 4, 2009)

Thanks Atomizer!!!` As much as I buy off of eBay and I never thought to look there for nozzles. I emailed an inquiry to a seller on eBay with the #28 nozzles. I am definitely interested in what its spray volume is as the listing online at Delavan only goes to a #11 and it maxs out at about 3.8 to 6.3 liters per hour. I would like to test a couple in a chamber that had a flow rating about 9.5 liters (2.5 gallons) per hour. For a 18 to 22.5 cubic feet chamber that doesn't sound bad.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 4, 2009)

Glad to help, its a pity he doesn`t do the 6`s and 10`s. Just need to find some bambi silent compressors for $24 now


----------



## travish413 (Dec 4, 2009)

How are yall setting the air compressor systems up. I get the concept where the liquid and air mix in the nozzles just was wondering how the system was actually put together?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 4, 2009)

I think 9.5LPH may be too much but you can always reduce it. Looking at the numbers 9.5LPH works out to 228L/day in a 22.5ft3 chamber or 10L/ft3/day. 
I think TF may be running something around 1L/ft3/day. Working on the assumption he has four 4.48ft3 chambers and 16x 8.51LPH nozzles running on a 2 sec/6 mins cycle. The total nutes delivered would be 18L/day (4.77gal) into 18ft3 of chambers.

I must be having a senior moment, its unlikely you`ll be running a nozzle constantly 
This is a bit more like it.. 2x 9.5L/hr nozzles in a 22.5ft3 chamber with timing cycles of:
1 sec/60 sec = 7.475L/day or 0.33L/ft3/day
1 sec/120 sec = 3.768L/day or 0.167L/ft3/day
1sec /180 sec = 2.519L/day or 0.111L/ft3/day


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 4, 2009)

Got a return email. The number 28 nozzles are rated at 2.2 gallons per hour. Looks like the ones I will try firts. And for half of Stephans quoted price. Time to spend some more money, so off to eBay.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 4, 2009)

I ended up ordering two #7 nozzles and four #28 nozzles and 6 adapters. I am not sure about the #7's. They are maybe a bit small but I will try them on a cloning and early veg/rooting chamber so they will be in a chamber of only about 8 cubic foot. Their max flow is about 4.8 liters/hour each however I doubt I would run them at that flow rate as I imagine the droplet size would be quite large that flow is at a high fluid head and at a low air pressure. It was strange actually paying more for the adapters then the nozzles. I figure now between adjustments that can be made with varying the nutrient head heights and air pressure I can probably dial in the droplet sizes I want. If I do not like the volume at that droplet size as all that type of nozzles use the same adapters and everthing before that (piping, valves , compressor remains the same) I can also try different nozzles for not a large sum and still not have to over water each spray period. 

The average prices on eBay were just $19 to $24 each. Stephan sent me an email again saying he does not accept payments online or through eBay and his quotes for the very same brass nozzles and adapters he just sold a few days ago are now 2 dollars more each. I round can filed all records of emails with him. I do not need to put up with his poor business ethics/practices. 

I think initially I will try to swing nearer the under watered stage rather than the over watered stage. I can only wait and see how it goes.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 4, 2009)

Hi Fatman
I think it`ll be a case of testing the various nozzles at different flows and air pressures to see what kind of pattern and throw they generate. Most of them seem to get narrower as the pressure increases. 
Ideally we need someone that owns an atomix to let us know what the flowrate is at min/max air pressure along with the syphon height 

Travish
As far as it goes its along similar lines to using a pump. The compressor fills the tank with air and its released to the nozzle with a solenoid valve. The nute delivery can be either via a syphon where the venturi effect of the air draws nutes into the nozzle or alternatively by using the gravity feed method with the nute tank located above the nozzle. The drawback is that you`d need another solenoid to kill the nute flow. The syphon method delivers less nutes but is easier to impliment.


----------



## Treeth (Dec 5, 2009)

Its just too bad that _I _had to make the initial investment that drove this innovation to a breaking point!
No problem guys its what I do. Rep please!
We just scaled this project way higher. What do you guys say we move this to a private forum, Say google wave,
for posting our further testing. 

This information, and perspective on process is special and will be big in the future. 
Association, Gentlemen, 
International Incorporated Associationism.
But we can call it a Firm. And if you two don't know already, 
My first project was directed at led efficacy... And lets say I have developed a position just as special in the lighting department..
So I've got the life system down, with the exclusion of effective and cheap environmental management. 

- What do you guys say, I want to get _started._


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 5, 2009)

Hi Treeth
I wish i`d come across them a bit earlier, it sucks when you find something cheaper "after" shelling out. 
Its a small consolation but hang onto the thought that before anyone can follow..someone has to lead  

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Treeth again.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 5, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I think 9.5LPH may be too much but you can always reduce it. Looking at the numbers 9.5LPH works out to 228L/day in a 22.5ft3 chamber or 10L/ft3/day.
> I think TF may be running something around 1L/ft3/day. Working on the assumption he has four 4.48ft3 chambers and 16x 8.51LPH nozzles running on a 2 sec/6 mins cycle. The total nutes delivered would be 18L/day (4.77gal) into 18ft3 of chambers.
> 
> I must be having a senior moment, its unlikely you`ll be running a nozzle constantly
> ...


that is pretty well dead on. im at 2 sec every 6 minutes. and i figured they were seeing around 5 gal a day. they lap up 2-3 of that aday. im doing 2 sec every 10 min lights out as iv noticed they only drink half as much water at night. iv noticed even at 10 min off the root mass still stays moist at night.

well i couldnt get the same pump i have and the replacement model will take 3 weeks so i ordered this model http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8030-813-239.html im going to set it up as a backup with a battery and a charger to take over if the system pressure falls below 75psi. this will help also if the power goes out as it will still be able to run off the battery and ill try and keep a couple charged and ready in case it stays out very long.(which i doubt will happen as ive only seen the power go off for an hour or two in 20 years)


----------



## travish413 (Dec 5, 2009)

Hey TF... I hope you dont mind but I am going to copy your 4 pod design.... I have been debating on what kind of grow chamber to go with and I found some utility sinks that would work perfect for the grow area I have. I have a DR150 which is 5x5 so 4 utility sinks would be spot on. I am going to put 4 small holes per sink and one larger hole in the center so I can switch it up and grow a scrog or grow 4 shrubs. Just so I can see what I like better and what works best for my setup. I just wanted to give you a heads up bc i was going to post pics when I was finished. I know how some ppl are with their designs and findings so if you have a problem with this I will think of something else. I just think those sinks are a great idea!


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 5, 2009)

travis
you are welcome to use any info you can. if using sinks even though they drain i would incorperate a 1 inch lift on the side oppisite the drain to speed up the drainage process. as ive found that by lifting my oppisite side they drain much better or you could lift the roots off the chamber floor with a silk screen.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 6, 2009)

Hi TF
The new pump looks good, coupled with a 12v solenoid it`ll cover any power outages. Your old pump should last forever, especially with the longer 2sec/6 min cycle timing.
By my reckoning, with 75-90psi drawdown (2.71L for a 5 gal accumulator) and a perfect 2 second pulse (no ramping, run on or other losses), the pump will kick in once every 3 hours and 36 minutes. The solenoid is likely to fail long before the pump..its running over 240 cycles a day


----------



## travish413 (Dec 6, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> travis
> you are welcome to use any info you can. if using sinks even though they drain i would incorperate a 1 inch lift on the side oppisite the drain to speed up the drainage process. as ive found that by lifting my oppisite side they drain much better or you could lift the roots off the chamber floor with a silk screen.


 Cool! Thanx for the tip!


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 6, 2009)

Atomizer
you know i never even thought about the solenoid until you said that. i was just thinking the battery would work for the pump because ive did it before. but on that app i was cycling the pump with the timer(no accumulator tank) Stg does carry the same valve with the 12 volt so im going to have to pick one up so i have everything covered. it sucks when somethingt goes and you dont have the replacement ready to go. a mad sramble. not good.when my plastic solenoid quite working a while back i ended up just plugging the pump into my cloner timer and cycling the pump for about 12 hrs until someplace opened to get the brass one i was using for awhile.
i never did notice any ill effects from using the brass one for about a week.

the pump will come on less than you figured during the night because its only 2 sec 10 min for 12h.

winter is here. the res is hovering around 64-65 deg. time to put that cooler lid back on i think.


----------



## akaru (Dec 6, 2009)

I've been running a medium pressure system using some evaporative cooling misters, but have been looking into fuel injector nozzles for months. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Now I have another system to build


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 7, 2009)

Hi TF,
Its still pretty warm for december here, a toasty 10C or 50F. I guess your timer will run on 12v, although it easy enough to switch another one into line with a relay. g-love switched everything off for two 1 hour periods during the night using a 24hr timer which could be another option. It cured the wilting issue he had due to excess watering at night.
As for the different day/night timing cycles.. 12 hours at 2s/10min delivers ~5.4L. The 12 hours daytime 2s/6min is ~9L so around ~14.4L altogether. The solenoid cycles 121 times during the day and 73 at night, total 194. The pump will run 3 times in the day and twice at night. Probably cheaper to run than lp aero


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 7, 2009)

Medium pressure aero with a Iwaki MD-30RZT means 95 watts per hour 24 hours per day. At the presnt kWh rate here of 0.28 per kWh that means $0.59 cents per day per each 60 SOG plants. I have no idea what you guys are using wattage wise for pumps with you HP systems. I am switching away from medium pressure for mainly for shorter internodes rather than for energy savings. I would pay even higher energy costs for the shorter internodes. I want fat bonzai buds. A single fat cola per plant would be just fine. Shorter, fatter, quicker and efficient drain to waste is my goal.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 7, 2009)

Here`s another example using a worst case timing cycle of 1sec/60sec. 
The solenoid will run a full 24 minutes/day, 5.5w/day. 
Pump running cost for 24 nozzles, 10 gal accumulator and a 17gal/day (64L) throughput equates to about 390w/day. Total 396w/day or perhaps $0.11 at your electricity prices


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 7, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF,
> Its still pretty warm for december here, a toasty 10C or 50F. I guess your timer will run on 12v, although it easy enough to switch another one into line with a relay. g-love switched everything off for two 1 hour periods during the night using a 24hr timer which could be another option. It cured the wilting issue he had due to excess watering at night.
> As for the different day/night timing cycles.. 12 hours at 2s/10min delivers ~5.4L. The 12 hours daytime 2s/6min is ~9L so around ~14.4L altogether. The solenoid cycles 121 times during the day and 73 at night, total 194. The pump will run 3 times in the day and twice at night. Probably cheaper to run than lp aero


try 16 deg this morning.i bought a stainless steel res heater and installed it. it only took around 8 minutes to warm from 63 where it was to 67 the lowest possible setting on the heater. i was impressed. im only running 15 gal res now and changing out every 5 days.

Well curiousity got the best of me and still seeing really damp roots when lights out and not completly dry when lights on i tryed for the first time 2 sec 10 minutes during lights on. well it was a restless night to say the least. but to my relief when i got over to see them the next day right before lights out they were still looking good. checked the root zone and things were finally dry on the chamber floor and the fuzz was puffy. im going to try one more lights on cycle with that setting and then evaluate what the root zone looks like before decieding to go back to the previous 2sec 6min or leave it. i know this is at the edge but i need to know so i can make better assesments in the future. I know it will be hard for peeps to believe that they show no signs of moisture stress at those levels but im just trying to figure out what works best for my app. and think outside of the box. as this whole system has surprised my thinking at every turn.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 7, 2009)

If you have the option on the timer i would try a 1 sec/5min cycle to drop the water volume but increase frequency and see how that goes. Its better to reduce the misting pulse if you can than increase the pause. 
2sec/10mins (19ml) a delivers fair amount per hit when you compare it to 1sec/5min (9.5ml) or 0.5sec/2.5min (4.7ml) cycles even though they all deliver the same amount of water per day.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 7, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Here`s another example using a worst case timing cycle of 1sec/60sec.
> The solenoid will run a full 24 minutes/day, 5.5w/day.
> Pump running cost for 24 nozzles, 10 gal accumulator and a 17gal/day (64L) throughput equates to about 390w/day. Total 396w/day or perhaps $0.11 at your electricity prices


Nice! Better performance, less operating cost, likely higher maintenance costs however. If paying retail the set up prices are probably about 50% higher for the HP system, but that would be more than made up for in increased value of the better yield from just one grow. Look like soleni oid maintenance/replacements is the main issue with the HP. I haven't had to replav ce a soenoid on the medium pressure units yet. They are all, plastomatics and Haywards though. It is easy to just repair them. I would not pay the retail prices for them though. Mine are all 1" on the Medium pressure systems and they sell for over $300 each retail. Mine are all Ebay purchased at a typical price of $50 to $75 each.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 7, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> try 16 deg this morning.i bought a stainless steel res heater and installed it. it only took around 8 minutes to warm from 63 where it was to 67 the lowest possible setting on the heater. i was impressed. im only running 15 gal res now and changing out every 5 days.
> 
> Well curiousity got the best of me and still seeing really damp roots when lights out and not completly dry when lights on i tryed for the first time 2 sec 10 minutes during lights on. well it was a restless night to say the least. but to my relief when i got over to see them the next day right before lights out they were still looking good. checked the root zone and things were finally dry on the chamber floor and the fuzz was puffy. im going to try one more lights on cycle with that setting and then evaluate what the root zone looks like before decieding to go back to the previous 2sec 6min or leave it. i know this is at the edge but i need to know so i can make better assesments in the future. I know it will be hard for peeps to believe that they show no signs of moisture stress at those levels but im just trying to figure out what works best for my app. and think outside of the box. as this whole system has surprised my thinking at every turn.


Your running just ambient room air. No heating, aircondition, dehumidifier or CO2? Average lighting intensity? I think I will not be able to get away with that long between cycles unless I change things up a lot. With medium aeros I am using 78 watts per square foot of water cooled lights on average. The grow rooms are all pretty air tight and are all air conditioned with settings of 86 degrees F. CO2 at 1600 ppm. The dehumifier is set at 40% relative humidity. Most of my reservoirs are in heated living spaces so run about 70 to 74 degrees F. The few chilled resrvoirs used in larger grows are just chilled to 76 to 78 degrees. The plants transpire a lot at 40% humidity. Between the air conditioner and dehumidifier I am getting about 44 pints per day (5.5 gallons). That is with 60 plant scrogs for about the entire 6 weeks of budding. Considering water some must be going into plant mass say one half a pint. (I can't say how much for sure as it is all automated with controllers and pumps) Still that is at least 5.5 gallons a day between 60 short plants. I am definitely spraying more than that though. But still that means at least that much is taken up by the plants per day. That also is for the attached cutting and early veg growth but that is low lighting so the tranpiration rate is quite low. I am assuming my transpiration might be even higher with the aeromisters. Oh what fun this will be. I can't even imagine how the aero misters better droplet sizes will change the EC needs.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 7, 2009)

Just got my aquatec 6800 that atomizer suggested to me. Going to have to wait til this weekend to get all the plumbing done though... I just started my mothers so I still got a while before everything has to be set up, but sooner than later Just want to say thank yall again for all the great info Will probably be askin some more questions this weekend as I run into them.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 7, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> If you have the option on the timer i would try a 1 sec/5min cycle to drop the water volume but increase frequency and see how that goes. Its better to reduce the misting pulse if you can than increase the pause.
> 2sec/10mins (19ml) a delivers fair amount per hit when you compare it to 1sec/5min (9.5ml) or 0.5sec/2.5min (4.7ml) cycles even though they all deliver the same amount of water per day.


yea i agree but i have tried 1 sec and because of the tubing from the manifold to the pods there isnt enough time to get mist to the pods. what im going to do to get around that is im going to install the .04 oz per sec nozzels so that i will get half the flow but still get the mist. it will take a week or two to get them but it seems like it will solve alot of the limitations i have with the system. i will be able then to mist more and not overwater because ill only be delivering half as much flow. for now i want to try and limit the wet feet as much as possible without drying out things to much. 

my next task is to get an above ground main res to draw off. it seems like every time i change out the below ground one i have to mess with the pump to get it to prime up the first time. also now that im not misting much the pump doesnt come on for a long time and i have noticed the pump has to reprime each cycle. the flooded intake to the pump from an above ground res will solve all that. also if only delivering 5-6 gal a day i can get by with a 25 gal sink setting on its legs for an above ground res. i picked up an extra pump for the cloner which i think will work to pump out the below ground res when ever it fills, which wont be very often with 3 gallon aday (holds 35 gal)or so runoff. i might just pump to waste now instead of pumping back to res since ive been changing out every 5 days anyway. all in all i think it will work alot better with out to much modifcation. im not sure the eco633 has the head at 8 ft to pump up but if not ill get one of thier larger ones to pump it up or ill just use the shop vac i have as it is what i use now to change out. it will be nice once i finally get everything right. 

my new 12v pump will be here thursday so ill want to get that all set up also. i wonder now if ill even get to the atomix project this winter anymore. i might have to watch as treeth and fatman beat me to it.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 7, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Your running just ambient room air. No heating, aircondition, dehumidifier or CO2? Average lighting intensity? I think I wil not be able to get awys with that long between cycles unless I cahnge things a lot. With medium aero I am using 78 watts per square foot of water cooled lights on average. The rooms are all air conditioned with settings of 86 degrees. The dehumifier is set at 40% relative humidity. The reservoirs are currently kept at 76 to 78 degrees. The plants transpire a lot at 40% humidity. Between the air conditioner and dehumidifier I am getting about 36 pints per day (4.5 gallons). Considering some must be going into plant mass say four additianal pints. (I can't say how much for sure as it is all automated with controllers and pumps) That means five gallons a day. I am definitely spraying more than that. But still that means at least that much is taken up by the plants per day. That is with 60 plant scrogs for about the entire 6 weeks of budding. That also is for the attached cutting and early veg growth but that is low lighting so the tranpiration rate is quite low.


no ac, no dehumid, no co2. 50 wpsf. i would like to run co2 and ac and dehumid but at this time its not possible. humid stays around 35% lighton ,55% lights off. temp 75 lighton 67lightsoff. i dont think id feel comfortable at those res temps. of coarse you have much more control over enviro factors than i do so those higher temps will benifit you. i really think once i get the misting cycles down and add co2 i could really see a benifit from higher res temps.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 7, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> yea i agree but i have tried 1 sec and because of the tubing from the manifold to the pods there isnt enough time to get mist to the pods. what im going to do to get around that is im going to install the .04 oz per sec nozzels so that i will get half the flow but still get the mist. it will take a week or two to get them but it seems like it will solve alot of the limitations i have with the system. i will be able then to mist more and not overwater because ill only be delivering half as much flow. for now i want to try and limit the wet feet as much as possible without drying out things to much.
> 
> my next task is to get an above ground main res to draw off. it seems like every time i change out the below ground one i have to mess with the pump to get it to prime up the first time. also now that im not misting much the pump doesnt come on for a long time and i have noticed the pump has to reprime each cycle. the flooded intake to the pump from an above ground res will solve all that. also if only delivering 5-6 gal a day i can get by with a 25 gal sink setting on its legs for an above ground res. i picked up an extra pump for the cloner which i think will work to pump out the below ground res when ever it fills, which wont be very often with 3 gallon aday (holds 35 gal)or so runoff. i might just pump to waste now instead of pumping back to res since ive been changing out every 5 days anyway. all in all i think it will work alot better with out to much modifcation. im not sure the eco633 has the head at 8 ft to pump up but if not ill get one of thier larger ones to pump it up or ill just use the shop vac i have as it is what i use now to change out. it will be nice once i finally get everything right.
> 
> my new 12v pump will be here thursday so ill want to get that all set up also. i wonder now if ill even get to the atomix project this winter anymore. i might have to watch as treeth and fatman beat me to it.


That just means we get all the fun of trying out the different nozzle sizes first. I sure hope the #28 works out well as I would like to just use two nozzles per chamber. Treeth will likely have half grown plants before I even get started. Some times I hate being a professor. Doesn't allow much free time for 30 weeks of the year to do much. I do get a lot of time off with pay though between semesters and during the summer.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 8, 2009)

Hi Fatman
I think the solenoids take the most abuse but they seem to handle it quite well. I have these nice pushfit solenoids so if one packs up it won`t take long to replace it 

Hi TF


> i have tried 1 sec and because of the tubing from the manifold to the pods there isnt enough time to get mist to the pods. what im going to do to get around that is im going to install the .04 oz per sec nozzels so that i will get half the flow but still get the mist.


Switching to 0.04oz nozzles is a move in the right direction to half the water. If you could add adv`s just behind the nozzles you`ll have the 1 second option as well  I`m wondering if theres a way to convert my adv`s to fit your nozzles either directly or by making up some sort of adapter. I guess your nozzles are a screw in type..what thread do they use?

Hi Travish
The first thing you`ll notice about the pump is the noise..it doesn`t make any  When you set everything up make sure you have a small 1/16" hex/allen key to hand as you might need to adjust the outlet pressure, the factory setting is normally 80psi. 
Sounds like everyone is getting new toys ahead of christmas


----------



## akaru (Dec 8, 2009)

I was how one would properly filter nutrient solution using atomizers. If the nozzle uses a siphon, I can't see how the solution could have enough pressure to be pushed through a fine mesh.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 8, 2009)

Filter it through a 1 micron bag before putting it in the res with a tight fitting lid. Use drain to waste so nothing comes back to contaminate the res or direct the runoff into a seperate container ready for filtering the next day.


----------



## akaru (Dec 8, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> ...It is a militray surplus Air Techiques M5 Denatl compressor so the price was right.


Are those old M5 compressors quiet? I'd assume they would be, being designed for use in a dentist office, but not sure if these older models are the "silent" type.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 8, 2009)

I have a M5-A and a M5-B model. They air techniques are quiet however they have a drier feature tha you would probably wish to remove. they are set up to pressurize to 60 psi, then blow oof the air above 40 psi through a silca dryer and the cylinder heads. That is a lot of waste especially as you do not need dry air as you are not power air driven dental equipment or a tattoo gun. It only requires two pipe caps to by pass the feature. The tank is glass lined so that is not a problem. There are only very minor diffrences in the A and B model A plastic piece around the coolind coil and thraededvhose emns betwwem the tank and driver instead od compression fittings. Don't buy one of the $100 plus rebuild kits. I did and every thing there but the circuit breaker can be bought singly retail if you need it. The circuit breaker is not that specila but it was designed for the military. Instead of being a standard 20 amp it is a 19 amp. Both MY modela M5-A and the M5-B, bought off of ebay look brand new. In their cases both modles weigh 158 pounds each. They were extremely over built for the military. The military used them for field use, however having been a medic in the militray for 6 years I am quite aware that the d miltary dentists doid no care in the field. They would do an examination and if you needed tratment you were sent back to a denrtal clinic or hospital. Proabably. The ao ir compressors were just inventi ory that was therefor field use for wars. however even in wars now they just send troops back to regular clinics and hospitals or just send them back to work. The U.S. military still maintains equipment as if they p\opertaed during the Korean and Viet Nam wars. Therefore they maintains huge amounts of equipment they MAY NEED and just replace it on a rotating basis with new equipment.


----------



## akaru (Dec 8, 2009)

Nice, thanks for the info. I'm thinking I should invest in something no louder than around 40db. Live in an apartment with thin walls, so quiet is key. Wish I could find the db rating of those Air Techniques, I see them on ebay all the time.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 8, 2009)

akaru said:


> Nice, thanks for the info. I'm thinking I should invest in something no louder than around 40db. Live in an apartment with thin walls, so quiet is key. Wish I could find the db rating of those Air Techniques, I see them on ebay all the time.


I gave the wrong pressures. The unit compresses to 80 psi and shuts off, it discharges through drier to 60 psi. the unit allows air usage until 40 psi when the compressor turns back on and compresses to 80 psi etc, etc. The manual does not state the db level but it is quieter than most of the water pumps o my reef aquariums. It is definitely quieter than my kitchen or bath room exhaust fans and they are typically rated between 45 and 50 db. The loudest it gets is when the valve lets of a bit of excess pressure each time it reaches 80 psdi and shuts down. If the unit is in the case it is very quiet though, and it is made to be in its case when in use. The drying cycle is not very notice able. I would compare it's noise and annoiance level to a refrigerator. I have the manual on a pdf file if you have an email address for me to send it to just send me a PM.


----------



## akaru (Dec 9, 2009)

I wish a 1 cfm could output enough to power a couple of nozzles, just due to their much smaller size and weight. But I guess at that it would be cycling constantly. The Atomix used one nozzle per 5 or 6 plants, so maybe one atomizer per three foot cubes is overkill?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 9, 2009)

I think the only way will be to test it. If we could find the actual spec for the nozzles used in the atomix it would be a lot easier to figure these things out.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 9, 2009)

well i got the above ground res installed . the pump works so much nicer now. the gauge just moves rapidly now up to 97psi where the pressure switch is set for. no more worrying if it will lose its prime inbetween long off cycles now. 

somewhat undeceided as to what to go with for a drain to waste setting of EC. Should it be less than recirculating system or more? any opinions?

i have noticed as ive been able to coax more of the finer roots to develop with less misting that it seems like the current setting of EC is actually a little too rich. im thinking this is because as the root system becomes more effecient it doesnt need as strong a level of EC. dont know this for sure just speculating.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 10, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> well i got the above ground res installed . the pump works so much nicer now. the gauge just moves rapidly now up to 97psi where the pressure switch is set for. no more worrying if it will lose its prime inbetween long off cycles now.
> 
> somewhat undeceided as to what to go with for a drain to waste setting of EC. Should it be less than recirculating system or more? any opinions?
> 
> i have noticed as ive been able to coax more of the finer roots to develop with less misting that it seems like the current setting of EC is actually a little too rich. im thinking this is because as the root system becomes more effecient it doesnt need as strong a level of EC. dont know this for sure just speculating.


Less misting and less EC I believe. Even two of the 2.25 gallon per hour plants spraying 1 sec per every 60 seconds still adds up to about 5738 ml per. A gallon of Lucas formula diluted to an EC of 0.9266 has 0.123 ounces of fertilizer in it. How much fertilizer can they take if you get close to no waste. At the rate I will be spraying at a EC of 0.9266 that would be 0.064 garms of fertilizer per minute or about 10.36 grams of fertilizer salts per day. I would say that is way to much fertilizer and that is at an EC of 0.926. I would say that with almost no drain to waste and EC of 0.23 would be more than enough fertilizer salts. That would definitely mean using RO water for mixing. That would mean ppm's (not percentages) of N=13.9, P = 27.75, K = 33.08, M = 8.33 and Calcium = 17.9 That is one twelfth of full strength. Meaning one gallon of nute concentrate wil make 1200 gallons of dilute nutrients. Now that is cheap nutrients. Definitely should not clog misters much.


----------



## akaru (Dec 11, 2009)

The SN nozzles definitely do get narrower as the pressure increases. The highest psi I saw listed was 40, with the -11 model having an arc of 50deg. Wonder how these will work at 70-100 psi. 

Saw a very cheap -5 models on the bay.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 11, 2009)

I hope to keep pressures down at below 25 psi, actually I would love around 15bto 20 psi. Only as high as what it takes to get good water dropltet sizing.


----------



## akaru (Dec 11, 2009)

Yeah, sounds right. Didn't realize you could run those compressors that low.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 11, 2009)

Any pressue aboe zero is fine with them. Actually they are not like a spouse. An air compressor you can just turn off and ignore, or just draw of only what you need or want whenever you want, they do not mind just being used a little but often. God should have designed spouses that way. I joke. Sorta.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 11, 2009)

akaru said:


> The SN nozzles definitely do get narrower as the pressure increases. The highest psi I saw listed was 40, with the -11 model having an arc of 50deg. Wonder how these will work at 70-100 psi.
> 
> Saw a very cheap -5 models on the bay.


G-love ran the atomix with 30-40psi, which equates to the 2- 2.8 bar specs on the sn nozzles.
Looking at the syphon spec, increasing air pressure results in increased liquid flow along with a decrease in angle. Either one will cause an increase in the droplet size, with both its likely to make a larger difference. 

You have plenty of control so its just a matter of finding the ideal flow for the pressure and having sufficient nozzles to get the coverage


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 11, 2009)

Delavar has a nozzle closer in design to the Atomix design that they just refer to as their economy siphon valve. The rangeof avilable sizes was pretty small. Gravity feed gains its volume thru incraesed head height. Lowering the height and/or increasing the pressure decreases droplet sizes. Another davantage of gravity over siphon. with sipohn you have to lower the flow by deceasing air or increasing the siphoning height. The more you incerase your siphon height the shorter period of you spray time that you have nutrient to spray as the siphon tube drians between sprays. This means for a part of the air burst there is no water yet siphoned up to be sprayed, this period of time would incraese with increadsed siphon height. With gravity feed it would just be the few inches at most betweenthe solenoid and the nozzle that would not have a full nutrient load. Set you nozzle slightly higher than your soleniod and even that area should contain a full load of nutrient solution.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 11, 2009)

I would opt for the gravity feed method over syphon as it seems more controllable even though you`d need a second solenoid to shut off the flow. Its no biggy to elevate a small res somewhere out of the way, it wouldnt need to be that high. 
I think the interesting part will be getting and keeping everything dialled in throughout the grow. With the variety of adjustments, you`ll probably be fighting the urge to tweak something every half hour


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 11, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I would opt for the gravity feed method over syphon as it seems more controllable even though you`d need a second solenoid to shut off the flow. Its no biggy to elevate a small res somewhere out of the way, it wouldnt need to be that high.
> I think the interesting part will be getting and keeping everything dialled in throughout the grow. With the variety of adjustments, you`ll probably be fighting the urge to tweak something every half hour


Being an engineer, a teacher and researcher I have tinkeritis quite often. Luckily the grow I will be experimenting on is in my home and the others will not be converted until I am thru tinkering.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 11, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I would opt for the gravity feed method over syphon as it seems more controllable even though you`d need a second solenoid to shut off the flow. Its no biggy to elevate a small res somewhere out of the way, it wouldnt need to be that high.
> I think the interesting part will be getting and keeping everything dialled in throughout the grow. With the variety of adjustments, you`ll probably be fighting the urge to tweak something every half hour


i would defineatly go with gravity feed or even better yet pressure fed. even though pressure fed adds a little more complexity i think the option of increasing or decreasing the pressure to get just the right droplet size makes up for it. of coarse you can vary the pressure by alittle by the gravity hieght you choose but the ability to be able to just dial in the pressure to a certain number would sure be nice. maybe ive just used to many accumulater tanks in my life

Ive lowered my ppm from 200 down to 140 (.5conversion) with the drain to waste. it sure is nice just setting the res and coming back and its still the same. no adjusting everyday. at current settings only going thru 3 gallons or so aday. i dont think i'would ever design another HP aero any other way as the nutes and water usage are low enough to warrent DTW. i monitor the runoff (what very little there is)and they sure seem to suck it up when its only going by once.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 11, 2009)

I think once you have a good quality of mist that your happy with, all you`d really need to alter is the cycle timing. With endless adjustment options some air/water combo`s could lead to the same thing which might get a bit confusing.

I came across a snippet of info regarding the sn 30609-5 nozzles which may be useful.
Using a 16" syphon height, 30psi air @ 1.66cfm and 37ml/min liquid flow, they generate droplets in a range of 4um- >40um. The mean air velocity in the chamber would be around 4.4 cm/sec (1.75"/sec) so its quite slow moving. Maybe that would account for the atomix using two opposing nozzles, 4um droplets wouldn`t travel too far before evaporating.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 11, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> I think once you have a good quality of mist that your happy with, all you`d really need to alter is the cycle timing. With endless adjustment options some air/water combo`s could lead to the same thing which might get a bit confusing.
> 
> I came across a snippet of info regarding the sn 30609-5 nozzles which may be useful.
> Using a 16" syphon height, 30psi air @ 1.66cfm and 37ml/min liquid flow, they generate droplets in a range of 4um- >40um. The mean air velocity in the chamber would be around 4.4 cm/sec (1.75"/sec) so its quite slow moving. Maybe that would account for the atomix using two opposing nozzles, 4um droplets wouldn`t travel too far before evaporating.


Glad I did not order any nozzles that smallthen. I would more go for m droplets of 40 to 70 at a bit higher velocity. I think for the larger ods the larger #28 will work fine with something betweem #8 and #11 for the smaller pods. Ithink the 5 and 6 would probably work better on small cloners. I really do not think siphon is a good way to go, but was more of a retail packing convenience. Too much of the compessed airs energy would be needed to power the venturi for siphoning the water up to the nozzle.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 11, 2009)

37ml/min is quite a flowrate, 2x 30609-5`s would equate to one 0.04oz biocontrols nozzle, TF has the equivalent of 16x 30609-5`s in each pod.. just not as expensive 
I`d say the syphon was used on the atomix to make it more plug and play or perhaps just to deliver a very low flowrate using minimum components. Stable gravity feed needs a constant water level, a flow adjustment tap of some description and a solenoid which eat into the profit margin


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 11, 2009)

I really do not understand waht you are trying to say. You give a flow arte for a cos nstant spary per minute. That spray if one second per minute is quite small. That is why I said I am glad that I did not order such small nozzles. But you say that is a large amount of so pary, then you say but that would mean using 16 to be equalt to waht is being used in the High Pressure Pod. I llok at y sa I am not ging to be sryaing cos nstatlt d so that viloume is too small. There talking a per/min g flow arte when were talking a per second flow usage. 

I am intending that the water level always be very nearly consistant as it will be maintained with an auto fill system from a main reservoir. As much as they charged for their systems I don't think they needed to worry about a profit margain. I think that margain was quite large and allowed al lot of wiggle room. I think placing the reservoir above the nozzles would have increased the overall foot print, therefore shipping cost, and that was was the major deciding factor as adding a small cheap flaot sytem and pump would not have added a major cost. I think they also wanted to kr eep the foot print small as the ctaula growing are is not that large considering the cost. To have a higher shipping cost, a larger foot print yet still hav a samll growing area would make the whole system seem absurdly impractical. But yes if they were greedy any corner they could cut would have brough a greater profit. I think the factor that their actual chamber size was not large made the use of smaller nozzles more appropriatte. Their chambers were likely about 16 cubic feet. Mine will be at least 22.5. maybe 27 cubic feet. I am getting to old to want to bend over when I do not need to. Plus it will keep more of the roots in the air. The actual cost to the manafacturer for a solenoid and an auto water top off system would have been minimal considering the cost for the atomix sytsems. I am also still planning on drain to waste so a reservoir under the chambers really is not very practical.


----------



## akaru (Dec 11, 2009)

To really save some dough, I noticed a bunch of way cheaper Hago nozzles. For $15/ea. looks like a good way to experiment. They have identical specs to the Delavans.

What do you guys think a good pressure would be for root penetration vs. overdoing it. That is, if all other factors were to remain the same and you could get your 40-60 micron droplets at any pressure, what would be optimal? Though I suppose the pressure setting depends on chamber size.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 12, 2009)

Plastomatic plastic pressure relief valve. A bit large at 1" but at $39.95 it would work great on a HP aero set up.
http://cgi.ebay.com/PLASTOMATIC-1-AUTOMATIC-CONTROL-VALVE_W0QQitemZ350281079418QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item518e611a7a

The Hago waste oil nozzles are the same apparently. I haven't look at the Hago site so I have no idea if the outter housing is stamless steel or plating. That would be really nice if that was a stainless housing. I paid $19 for the Delavans in brass.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 12, 2009)

Spec Sheet on the Hago siphoning niozzles matching the Delavan:
http://hago.danfoss.com/PCMPDF/DKBDPD080E122.pdf Sizes 2 through 11. The outter housing that would be exposed inside the chamber is stailess steel. The actual stem inside is brass. The autocad drawings sure looks just like the Delavan.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 12, 2009)

> I really do not understand what you are trying to say. You give a flow rate for a constant spray per minute. That spray if one second per minute is quite small. That is why I said I am glad that I did not order such small nozzles. But you say that is a large amount of spray, then you say but that would mean using 16 to be equal to what is being used in the High Pressure Pod. I llok at y sa I am not going to be spraying constant so that volume is too small. There talking a per/min flow rate when were talking a per second flow usage.


Hi fatman
I tend to go off on a tangent without an explanation sometimes  
The reference to TF`s pods and 16 nozzles was just to compare and illustrate the flowrates of each type with an equal timing cycle. 
My thinking goes something like this, TF is using 4 nozzles running 142ml/min each with a 2sec/10min cycle (2.71L/day) so
2x 60309-5 nozzles running 37ml/min on a 2sec/75 sec cycle will deliver almost the same volume (2.76L/day). 
The highest spec gravity flowrate of the #5 nozzle is 72ml/min, so 2 nozzles will deliver the same 2.71L/day using a 2sec/2.5min cycle. They have headroom if you use short timings similar to the atomix if thats anything to go by.
The lowest gravity flow from a single #11 nozzle is 86ml/min using the minimum spec air pressure. 
A single #11 nozzle might not provide sufficient coverage as the mean air velocity in the chamber will be even lower than the 60309-5 due to greater water mass and lower pressure available to drive it. More nozzles will increase the pause durations to keep daily liquid throughput the same, perhaps radically different to atomix timings.

Testing is the only way to get answers


----------



## travish413 (Dec 12, 2009)

Atomizer,
I scored an IBC tank today! I live in a rural area so I knew if looked hard enough i would find one. Well, I just happen to drive by a farm and saw three sitting by a mans farm shop and I went and ask if he would sell one. He sold it to me for 15 dollars and its only been used to hold water for his cattle. It looks brand new. I am going to cut it in half and use it for my chamber. 
Fatman
I have a question about your system... If you can get these very small droplets with very low air pressure then will a 200 dollar air compressor work? I just noticed the compressors you use cost around 700 and I didnt want to really spend that when I am half way into the accumaltor tank and water pump system...


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 12, 2009)

i think that testing is the only way to get an acurate idea of what mist cycle you will need. one big mistake i made at first was go with a mist cycle that i had read the atomix was on. every chambers misting cycle will be different depending on the size and placement of the nozzels. also pump based HP aero will be somewhat different than air based settings. ive noticed the hardest thing to learn is that the roots have to stay in a state where water doesnt pool on them or you destroy the fuzz. it takes very little with my 4 nozzels in the small chambers i have to keep the roots from getting too wet. i have even had to cut back more on the misting during the night period to keep from over wetting.

i think the best thing to do when designing the chambers and nozzels is not to worry about not getting enough mist but rather worry about not having the ability to dial it down far enough.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 12, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> i think that testing is the only way to get an acurate idea of what mist cycle you will need. one big mistake i made at first was go with a mist cycle that i had read the atomix was on. every chambers misting cycle will be different depending on the size and placement of the nozzels. also pump based HP aero will be somewhat different than air based settings. ive noticed the hardest thing to learn is that the roots have to stay in a state where water doesnt pool on them or you destroy the fuzz. it takes very little with my 4 nozzels in the small chambers i have to keep the roots from getting too wet. i have even had to cut back more on the misting during the night period to keep from over wetting.
> 
> i think the best thing to do when designing the chambers and nozzels is not to worry about not getting enough mist but rather worry about not having the ability to dial it down far enough.


 So TF, I am going to cut this ibc tank down to about 14in tall and it is 3ft by 4ft. that makes it 24 c/ft... I am using the biocontrols knozzles that you use. How many do you think would suffice?


----------



## travish413 (Dec 12, 2009)

One more thing... I guess the best way to place these knozzles would be around the perimeter of the chamber and not on the bottom? I would assume the roots would get in the way after a while if they were directly underneath.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 12, 2009)

travish
i would think that 4 of the .25 orifice bio nozzels would work fine in there. or maybe 6to 8 of the .16 orifice nozzels to get more even spread if you have lots of small girls in there. you need to be able to get 1 to 2 sec pulses though to make sure you have the ability to not over wet things. you can always turn the cycle to 4 seconds but if your limited on your abliity to go 2 sec or your sytem doesnt perform well with 1 sec then you have to increase the pause time. it is better to be able to dial the on cycle then to have to lengthen the pause time. my system i can go 1 sec but because of the tubing runs to the pods 1 sec isnt very effective so i have to use 2 sec. Two .25 nozzels would be enough for me in each chamber but instead of removing 2 im going to just install 4 .16 nozzels and that should give me the needed control.

im a big fan of top mounted nozzels as they are out of the way and the mist will naturally fall by gravity downward. although vertically in a tall chamber i think would be ideal. your chamber at 14 inches i would think top would work best.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 12, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> travish
> i would think that 4 of the .25 orifice bio nozzels would work fine in there. or maybe 6to 8 of the .16 orifice nozzels to get more even spread if you have lots of small girls in there. you need to be able to get 1 to 2 sec pulses though to make sure you have the ability to not over wet things. you can always turn the cycle to 4 seconds but if your limited on your abliity to go 2 sec or your sytem doesnt perform well with 1 sec then you have to increase the pause time. it is better to be able to dial the on cycle then to have to lengthen the pause time. my system i can go 1 sec but because of the tubing runs to the pods 1 sec isnt very effective so i have to use 2 sec. Two .25 nozzels would be enough for me in each chamber but instead of removing 2 im going to just install 4 .16 nozzels and that should give me the needed control.
> 
> im a big fan of top mounted nozzels as they are out of the way and the mist will naturally fall by gravity downward. although vertically in a tall chamber i think would be ideal. your chamber at 14 inches i would think top would work best.


Thanks! I think i am going to go with the .16 knozzles too. I will be running a 3/8" tube from the pump, but I will have to reduce that when tee off because my tank is 1". I thought I would then tap into the 3/8" tube with a 1/4" to the knozzles. What size of tubing are you running from your pump?


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 12, 2009)

half inch from pump to acc. tank and half inch thru solenoid to distribution manifold then to 4 1/4 inch lines. one1/4 inch to each pod.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 12, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> half inch from pump to acc. tank and half inch thru solenoid to distribution manifold then to 4 1/4 inch lines. one1/4 inch to each pod.


 Was trying to get an idea and see if I might be able to have a 1 second option.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 12, 2009)

Hi Travish
You got a real bargain price on that ibc. To get an almost instant on/off to the mist pulse, keep the pipe run after the solenoid as short as possible and use an adv for each nozzle. You could use a solenoid at each nozzle to do the same thing but thats expensive. Avoid using any type of soft tubing after the solenoid as it tends to expand under pressure. When the solenoid closes the tubing prolongs the mist cycle as it contracts back to size.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 13, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Travish
> You got a real bargain price on that ibc. To get an almost instant on/off to the mist pulse, keep the pipe run after the solenoid as short as possible and use an adv for each nozzle. You could use a solenoid at each nozzle to do the same thing but thats expensive. Avoid using any type of soft tubing after the solenoid as it tends to expand under pressure. When the solenoid closes the tubing prolongs the mist cycle as it contracts back to size.


 Yeah, I couldnt believe I got that for the price i didIm not sure what you are talking about when you say "adv" and I guess i just cap the end of my run off after the solenoid and of course after my 1/4' lines that come off of the main line?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 13, 2009)

The adv acts like a pressure sensitive solenoid which keeps pressure in the line between the solenoid and each nozzle. If the line pressure has to go from 0psi-90psi-0psi during the mist pulse, it will run for longer than a second.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 14, 2009)

Atomizer
I just purchased 2 of the 4 head netafim coolnet foggers, 6 of the adv's that allow for the one second pulse and 6 of the small misters that i believe they were called dgt misters. I was going to try and screw them in the netafim adv's or see if i could find a way to screw the biocontrol nozzles in the netafim adv's. I am going to test all of these nozzles and see what works best for me.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 14, 2009)

Thats a good plan. 
Test the nozzles in perfectly still air or you`ll be none the wiser to what pattern they generate  
I guess you bought the highest pressure adv`s with an orange pin. Which colour nozzles did you get for testing? 7.5`s (grey) or 5`s (purple). 
The 5`s work well in pairs with the other 2 outlets capped off using blind (orange) nozzles but a 4-way could be good in a 3x4 chamber. You`ll probably find the 7.5`s deliver too much mist at 90psi 

I don`t know what thread the biocontrols nozzles use but the outlet end of an adv has a ~6mm bore by the looks of it with plenty of wall thickness to handle being tapped with a thread. The other option (more hassle) is to make up an adapter using netafim 3/8 screw bases and JG speedfit stop ends.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 14, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Thats a good plan.
> Test the nozzles in perfectly still air or you`ll be none the wiser to what pattern they generate
> I guess you bought the highest pressure adv`s with an orange pin. Which colour nozzles did you get for testing? 7.5`s (grey) or 5`s (purple).
> The 5`s work well in pairs with the other 2 outlets capped off using blind (orange) nozzles but a 4-way could be good in a 3x4 chamber. You`ll probably find the 7.5`s deliver too much mist at 90psi
> ...


 Yes I got the orange pin and they only had one choice for the nozzles on the 4 head fogger. It was the 8.1gph nozzle. Im not sure which one that is. I also got the .5 to .6 small blue dgt nozzles. I thought they might fit in the adv's... Do u know if they will fit?


----------



## travish413 (Dec 14, 2009)

yeah and i wasnt for sure how exactly i was going to fit the biocontrols but i thought with enough playin around i could figure something out. I was actually wanting to run 3 different manifolds with a shut off on all of them so you can run one at a time and have all the nozzle options hooked up at one time. When you wanted to try the netafim turn off the other two and if you wanted to try the biocontrols alone just have that on turned on and so on. Just an idea... It would be alot of tubing running throught the chamber I would think. But it would make it easy to see which on had the best results with running a different on with each crop.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 14, 2009)

Sounds like you have the 7.5LPH nozzles, they are the same grey colour as the 4-way cross assembly. Did you get a base with them? there`s a pic of a 3/8 screw-in base on page 3 of this thread. 
I made an adapter for testing nozzles, its just a length of 15mm pex pipe to connect to the solenoid and a 15mm pushfit "stop-end" to blank off the other end, i drilled and tapped the stop-end to take a 3/8 netafim base. You could tap another for the biocontrols thread.
To see the response from the adv, you`ll need to use a solenoid in the test setup so the flow stops instantly, turning a regular tap off in a few milliseconds isn`t possible. When you do the testing, try replacing the adv with a straight connector to see the difference not having an adv makes 
You could run independant nozzle circuits if each had its own solenoid, put a switch in the line from the cycle timer to each solenoid so you can switch off the ones you don`t want running.

I`ve not come across the blue dgt nozzles but its worth testing them to see what they do.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 14, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Sounds like you have the 7.5LPH nozzles, they are the same grey colour as the 4-way cross assembly. Did you get a base with them? there`s a pic of a 3/8 screw-in base on page 3 of this thread.
> I made an adapter for testing nozzles, its just a length of 15mm pex pipe to connect to the solenoid and a 15mm pushfit "stop-end" to blank off the other end, i drilled and tapped the stop-end to take a 3/8 netafim base. You could tap another for the biocontrols thread.
> To see the response from the adv, you`ll need to use a solenoid in the test setup so the flow stops instantly, turning a regular tap off in a few milliseconds isn`t possible. When you do the testing, try replacing the adv with a straight connector to see the difference not having an adv makes
> You could run independant nozzle circuits if each had its own solenoid, put a switch in the line from the cycle timer to each solenoid so you can switch off the ones you don`t want running.
> ...


 Yeah, i actually was thinkin about installing all the nozzles, each off a different main tube and have a have a shut off on each tube so i could use which ever nozzle i wanted. Might be too much of a mess in the chamber though...


----------



## travish413 (Dec 15, 2009)

travish413 said:


> Yeah, i actually was thinkin about installing all the nozzles, each off a different main tube and have a have a shut off on each tube so i could use which ever nozzle i wanted. Might be too much of a mess in the chamber though...


 I was actually thinkin of doing the solenoid first and then branch off to the different circuits and just have a shut off on each circuit. so i could just use the shut off valves on the ones i didnt want to use. Do you think that would work or should i go with the solenoids?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 15, 2009)

Valves would work just as good.
You`d be better off running each nozzle type in its own chamber so you can make side by side comparisons over a few weeks. If you hook them all up to one solenoid and run them as a single system it`ll be a more level playing field.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 15, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Valves would work just as good.
> You`d be better off running each nozzle type in its own chamber so you can make side by side comparisons over a few weeks. If you hook them all up to one solenoid and run them as a single system it`ll be a more level playing field.


 yeah, thats what id really like to do but i am kinda limited by space... i am going to run each nozzle type by itself in the same chamber. I will try to keep the variables as exact as i can with each different grow. this way will take alot longer for results but its the only way i can do it.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 15, 2009)

Half of my Delvan nozzles are here. Half are not. No adapters yet. For twice the price or more I dont think Stephen would have been any quicker though.


----------



## Treeth (Dec 15, 2009)

hahahaha.

I always appreciate a stephen joke... he spells it steve in his emails too... A man with an identity crisis, in sales no less!

sigh... Well,

I turn on the -mister- tomorrow in my veg chamber, time to coax some roots out of my rockwool. The clonex solution I bought seems to be inhibiting and not promoting root growth. The seedling stage is so slow, its been weeks now since I popped the beans and the plants, under a couple hundred watts of T5, are still are no bigger than three or four inches and only have two or three sets of tiny leaves. Frustrating. Don't know what else to do other than to drop the light cycle down. 

Couple of things I wish I had done:

Gone bigger than a 1/4 horse, 2 1/2 gallon compressor.

and Figured out a gravity feed mechanism like I think ATO was talking bout'. I have no idea how to do that elegantly, by expanding off the one solenoid I already have. I was thinking that I could hold the water up by suction, but I would need a one way valve on my nozzle to do that.

Gotta start taking good lab notes too. 

The one thing I also wanted to discuss again was how you guys plan on chilling your misting chamber. I decided to invest in a micro chiller to keep a sub reservoir chilled inside my insulated chamber, with the water level a foot and a half below the netcups, and a small pump to keep things moving. 

AND I put a humidifier in the room to insure against transpiration stress...

Although I wish I also had the cash to fill up my propane tank.

You two were bickering about efficacy before a week or so ago... Things like CO2, a/c , and watts of light per square foot... Well I intend to go there with these nozzels, in fact, these are the last step for me to complete the process of bringing my room up to 'super enthusiast' levels.

I'm hoping to get my bitches to finish fat and very early with the help of the misters and later more experimentation into different spectrums of leds beyond the 700+ watts of 640 red I run now. 

... and What discipline do you teach fatman?


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 16, 2009)

I think you will find that just keeping your compressed air tank and nutrients cool will work initially. This will cool the chamber interiors, the roots and the chamber inner walls as long as the outside is insulated. Figure if your spraying 65 degree F air and water once second per minute, that would likely cool your system down an average of 10 to 15 degrees. So as long as your room temp is below that required for CO2 (75) that will be enough. If your room temp requires CO2 (over 75) then your chamber temperature if using CO2 can be also higher as long as you use netting or something to keep the long roots out of low DO standing water. Root rot is common where there is anerobic bacteria. That means warm water without dissolved oxygen and dying roots (organic matter). So if you have high temps simply keep the roots out of low DO standing water that contains dead organic matter. Matting, and drainage. The rest is up to adequate nutrients balanced with lots of O2 for the roots, adequate water, CO2 and lighting. With the heavy paramters humidity control will likely be needed to keep transpirtion potential high.

With a bit of over spraying allowinfg for waste water to carry away excess heat in the excess water things will likely be eaiser than with drain to waste where the intent is to have no waste so no fluid carried heat removal. I have lots of extra titanium tubing so if it comes down to it I will just put chilled refrigerant lines in my chambers. I h just buy cheap $99 to $199 Sears Kenmore window air conditioners and turn them into chillers. They exhaust all the heat out doors unlike the typical chillers.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 16, 2009)

I think cool compressed air will have the greatest effect on chamber temps depending how much air is delivered in a second or two. If you can control the room temps you shouldnt need to worry about the chamber temp too much.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer
How exactly do you dial in your psw for your pump. I have the 340 psw. I know i fill the diaphram tank with air to 2 or 3 psi below what i want it to cut in at. but not sure how I know what the cut in pressure will be once i adjust it from the factory setting...


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

BTW Im not sure what fitting you are talkin about on page 3 but i think i bought the exact same thing thats in the pic of yours. I bought a dan retofit adapter... I wasnt sure what it was but i didnt figure it would hurt to have on just in case


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 16, 2009)

travish413 said:


> Atomizer
> How exactly do you dial in your psw for your pump. I have the 340 psw. I know i fill the diaphram tank with air to 2 or 3 psi below what i want it to cut in at. but not sure how I know what the cut in pressure will be once i adjust it from the factory setting...


you need to have a pressure gauge in the system. then when you turn on the pump you will be able to adjust the pressure switch by watching the gauge. 

a good idea also is to have a bypass valve before the solinoid so that you can release the flow in the system back to the res without having to fire the solinoid to the misters. reason being is when you have to adjust the pressure switch and you have girls in the system the only way to cycle the pump will be by firing the misters with the solenoid and this might take a few pump up-down cycles to get the adjustment where you want it and the whole time youll be drenching the roots. 
you might think this doesnt matter cause its only every now and then that youll have to adjust the switch, but i noticed before i added a release line that these drenchings while adjusting the switches could take over a day for the delicate root hairs to recover back to normal.

i would also recomend the release line to purge any air out of the system, as i noticed air trapped in the system can have an effect on the pressure switches setting.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 16, 2009)

well i got my backup 12vdc pump and replacement solenoid. now alls i need to do is get the pump mounted with the battery and smart charger and i should be ready for a power outage if it should happen.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 16, 2009)

Hi Travish
I think the Dan is to fit the netafims to an existing Dan installation, there a 1/2" adapter that fits standard pipes too
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/Netafim-Fogger-Assembly/productinfo/IR-NFFG/
The bases i use have a conical 3/8 whitworth thread and two "wings" to assist screwing it into a distribution pipe.

The pressure switch will have instructions but generally the large spring moves both cut-in and cut-out pressure, i class it as the "range" adjustment. The small spring usually adjusts only the cut-out pressure. 
The factory setting for the cutout point may be above the tanks safe working pressure so its safer (and quicker) to set the pressure switch up without the accumulator initially to get it somewhere in the ballpark.

TF types a lot quicker than me.. congrats on the new pump


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Travish
> I think the Dan is to fit the netafims to an existing Dan installation, there a 1/2" adapter that fits standard pipes too
> http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/Netafim-Fogger-Assembly/productinfo/IR-NFFG/
> The bases i use have a conical 3/8 whitworth thread and two "wings" to assist screwing it into a distribution pipe.
> ...


 yeah, i also got the 1/2in adapters. i wasnt sure what all i need so i bought everything that looked useful


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 16, 2009)

Must be nice to be that rich  
I guess the pressure switch is CXA-S3, the paperwork should have the factory settings listed somewhere. The pdf isn`t much help. http://www.dwyer-inst.com/PDF_files/CXA_cat.pdf

Your switch instructions should be more comprehensive than mine, all i got was 3 lines of italian/english translation 
A: Turn up completely differential nut (1)
B: Adjust range nut (2) to wished cut in pressure (pump start)
C: Turn down differential nut (1) up to wished cut out pressure.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Must be nice to be that rich
> I guess the pressure switch is CXA-S3, the paperwork should have the factory settings listed somewhere. The pdf isn`t much help. http://www.dwyer-inst.com/PDF_files/CXA_cat.pdf
> 
> Your switch instructions should be more comprehensive than mine, all i got was 3 lines of italian/english translation
> ...


 I got the cxa-r2... I am a bit confused tho... Isnt the psw that came with the pump serve the same purpose as this dwyer pressure switch? BTW I wish i was rich! lol I just left my wife so i feel like a millionaire I was thinkin that I wouldnt have to use this dwyer switch since the aquatec came with the 340 psw... Can you explain the different ways that i would use each of them. Or are they basically the same. I could just use them on two separate manifolds? I am really confused... sorry


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

travish413 said:


> I got the cxa-r2... I am a bit confused tho... Isnt the psw that came with the pump serve the same purpose as this dwyer pressure switch? BTW I wish i was rich! lol I just left my wife so i feel like a millionaire I was thinkin that I wouldnt have to use this dwyer switch since the aquatec came with the 340 psw... Can you explain the different ways that i would use each of them. Or are they basically the same. I could just use them on two separate manifolds? I am really confused... sorry


 The way i was going to install everything was like this and tell me what i need to change bc i figure its not going to be right.
Main Res-aquatec pump-aquatec psw- TEE leading to the acc tank- solenoid which will be connected to the cycle timer- and then on to the manifold which i wll branch off of. Should i utilize the dywer pressure switch since i have it layin around or what should i actually do with it?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 16, 2009)

It seems the 340 psw is an optional extra, did it come as a package deal? you dont need it..send it back for a refund  
The dwyer is adjustable where the 340 has a fixed 40psi cutoff point. It needs to be at least 58psi to open the adv`s.

You need a line from the pump to the solenoid with the pressure switch, accumulator, pressure guage tee`d off the line. A shutoff valve between the line and the tank is useful for isolating it. An extra outlet on the line is ideal for draining everything back to the res if you need to as TF suggested.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> It seems the 340 psw is an optional extra, did it come as a package deal? you dont need it..send it back for a refund
> The dwyer is adjustable where the 340 has a fixed 40psi cutoff point. It needs to be at least 58psi to open the adv`s.
> 
> You need a line from the pump to the solenoid with the pressure switch, accumulator, pressure guage tee`d off the line. A shutoff valve between the line and the tank is useful for isolating it. An extra outlet on the line is ideal for draining everything back to the res if you need to as TF suggested.


 Yeah, i actually bought it as an extra thinking i could adjust the pressure on the 340 psw... I guess I need to pay closer attention


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> It seems the 340 psw is an optional extra, did it come as a package deal? you dont need it..send it back for a refund
> The dwyer is adjustable where the 340 has a fixed 40psi cutoff point. It needs to be at least 58psi to open the adv`s.
> 
> You need a line from the pump to the solenoid with the pressure switch, accumulator, pressure guage tee`d off the line. A shutoff valve between the line and the tank is useful for isolating it. An extra outlet on the line is ideal for draining everything back to the res if you need to as TF suggested.


 here is a web site that says you can adjust http://www.waterfiltersonline.com/detail.asp?product_id=aquatec-psw Do u still think i should trash it?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 16, 2009)

If you can send it back thats what i would do. 
The dwyer has wide adjustment range where the 340 will be very limited. I doubt it`ll reach 60psi before the adjustment max`s out. The dwyer CXA-S2 has a range of 30-100psi, the deadband can be set anywhere from 20-35psi.

Aere you sure you have an R2 switch? its a normally open (N/O) switch, you need the S2 normally closed (N/C).


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> If you can send it back thats what i would do.
> The dwyer has wide adjustment range where the 340 will be very limited. I doubt it`ll reach 60psi before the adjustment max`s out. The dwyer CXA-S2 has a range of 30-100psi, the deadband can be set anywhere from 20-35psi.
> 
> Aere you sure you have an R2 switch? its a normally open (N/O) switch, you need the S2 normally closed (N/C).


 I am an idiot... I just looked at it is a normally open switch... I guess i'll be ordering a different one.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

travish413 said:


> I am an idiot... I just looked at it is a normally open switch... I guess i'll be ordering a different one.


 Just purchased the cxa s3. It had a tighter deadband so i got it instead of the s2.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 16, 2009)

Don`t beat yourself up too much, its easily done. 
Looking on the brightside you`ve saved yourself from a nightmare..setting up the cut-in/cut-out pressures would have been impossible 

The S3 has a minimum deadband of 30psi, so if you wanted the pump to cut-out at 100psi, the cut-in will need to be 70psi or less. The S2 has a min deadband of 20psi so you could go 100psi cut-out and 80psi cut-in. 
One may be better suited than the other depending on what min/max pressure range you want the system to operate at, the S2 will only go upto 100psi where the S3 goes to 150psi.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Don`t beat yourself up too much, its easily done.
> Looking on the brightside you`ve saved yourself from a nightmare..setting up the cut-in/cut-out pressures would have been impossible
> 
> The S3 has a minimum deadband of 30psi, so if you wanted the pump to cut-out at 100psi, the cut-in will need to be 70psi or less. The S2 has a min deadband of 20psi so you could go 100psi cut-out and 80psi cut-in.
> One may be better suited than the other depending on what min/max pressure range you want the system to operate at, the S2 will only go upto 100psi where the S3 goes to 150psi.


i was going to try 95 cut in and 65 out. really dont have any logic behind it just a shot in the dark


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

travish413 said:


> i was going to try 95 cut in and 65 out. really dont have any logic behind it just a shot in the dark


how do you plug these switches into the aquatec?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 16, 2009)

Tee it off the main line just like a pressure guage. It looks like the switch takes a 1/4" npt male connector so it should be easy to sort out.
You`ll like this, if you use 95psi with a 4ft run of 10mm bore pipework between solenoid and adv, you`ll get a 1/100th second mist run-on after the solenoid closes..and thats using a single 8.1LPH nozzle


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Tee it off the main line just like a pressure guage. It looks like the switch takes a 1/4" npt male connector so it should be easy to sort out.
> You`ll like this, if you use 95psi with a 4ft run of 10mm bore pipework between solenoid and adv, you`ll get a 1/100th second mist run-on after the solenoid closes..and thats using a single 8.1LPH nozzle


 Wow, thats pretty amazing... I think i am going to hook these netafim nozzles up and run them for a while. I can tell i still have alot to learn about this hp aero but i am getting there.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 16, 2009)

Wow, those are very reasonably priced pressure switches. I install for friends quite a few submersible pumps with a captive air tank and assorted valves etc for wells and I always ended up paying around $70 to $100 for Square D brand pressure switch for ranges around 80 to 100 psi.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 16, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Wow, those are very reasonably priced pressure switches. I install for friends quite a few submersible pumps with a captive air tank and assorted valves etc for wells and I always ended up paying around $70 to $100 for Square D brand pressure switch for ranges around 80 to 100 psi.


 Yeah and they good quality too. Or atleast the by the looks. I havent got to test one out yet. is the electrical pretty straight forward on hookin these switches to the pumps.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 16, 2009)

Pretty straight forward. Two lines in tow out and a ground. Dark wire to the brass screw, white wire to the silver screw. Green wire is ground.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 17, 2009)

I am going to cut that ibc tank to the height that i want it but not sure how tall i need it. I plan on using the netafim check valves and probably the netafim foggers too. Atomizer since you have experience with them do you have any ideas? I said 14in the other day but really meant 24in. I am startin to think that is a lil too tall and maybe meet in the middle somewhere? I am going to build a frame around it so i can insulate and have a top that fits square. So, if its a lil short it wont be a problem, basically the ibc will be used to catch the runoff.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 17, 2009)

I think ibc`s are about a metre high, so chopping it exactly in half will give you two good sized chambers. A single 4-way cross with 7.5 nozzles should deliver enough mist for the chamber..maybe too much 
Ideally it`ll need to be positioned where the nozzles can fire into clear air space so the mist has a chance to spread out before running into anything. You`ll need to take plant type and spacing into account as tree roots will tend to block more than a sog with one placement and vice versa with another. When you have the nozzles up and running you`ll get a better idea of the spread and throw.
If you have good mains water pressure you could hook up a hose temporarily to check out possible placements while waiting for the new pressure switch to arrive.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 17, 2009)

I am still confused on the electrical part of the new pressure switch though... I have this http://www.isopurewater.com/aquatec-aquatec-tas10419-volt-6800-series-transformer-pi-2687.html?osCsid=cbedhps8se6mm9acfk50cqs911. How to I hook it to this http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/Product.cfm?Group_ID=582&sPageName=Ordering. I dont get any wires with the pressure switch so would i just cut the end off the transformer and wire to the pressure switch? I really dont think that would be the correct thing to do that why i am asking you all.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 17, 2009)

No, scratch that... I would be using the wires from my pump to the dywer switch but then could i still use the transformer?
I am totally in the dark on how to hook this pump to the pressure switch... I would appreciate any input at all! Thanks!


----------



## travish413 (Dec 17, 2009)

Could i plug the dywer pressure switch into a 110 relay with the tranformer that would be plugged into the pump.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 17, 2009)

travish413 said:


> No, scratch that... I would be using the wires from my pump to the dywer switch but then could i still use the transformer?
> I am totally in the dark on how to hook this pump to the pressure switch... I would appreciate any input at all! Thanks!


your pump has a transformer to take regular 120 volt AC and convert it to whatever power the pump uses. you need the transformer to power the pump. 

you have to take a 120 volt AC regular current line and run it to the line inputs on the pressure switch (should be marked L1 and L2 on pressure switch)and then come off the other two terminals on the pressure switch(should be marked T1 and T2 or something similar) and run those to an outlet and plug the pump transformer into that outlet. now when the switch calls for pressure it will send 120 volts to the outlet which will power the transformer which will turn on the pump.

the only other way to do it is if the pressure switch is rated for whatever voltage (ACorDC) the transformer puts out. if the pressure switch is (i doubt very much it is)rated for the output voltage of the transformer then you can plug the transformer into the wall and run the 2 wires from the transformer to the pressure switch L1 and L2 terminals and then run 2 wires from the other two terminals on the pressure switch to the pump.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 17, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> your pump has a transformer to take regular 120 volt AC and convert it to whatever power the pump uses. you need the transformer to power the pump.
> 
> you have to take a 120 volt AC regular current line and run it to the line inputs on the pressure switch (should be marked L1 and L2 on pressure switch)and then come off the other two terminals on the pressure switch(should be marked T1 and T2 or something similar) and run those to an outlet and plug the pump transformer into that outlet. now when the switch calls for pressure it will send 120 volts to the outlet which will power the transformer which will turn on the pump.
> 
> the only other way to do it is if the pressure switch is rated for whatever voltage (ACorDC) the transformer puts out. if the pressure switch is (i doubt very much it is)rated for the output voltage of the transformer then you can plug the transformer into the wall and run the 2 wires from the transformer to the pressure switch L1 and L2 terminals and then run 2 wires from the other two terminals on the pressure switch to the pump.


 Thanks! I called dywer customer support and it blew their minds. I am still waiting for them to call me back with an answer on how to hook it up. haha I shouldnt laugh tho, hell i didnt have a clue either. You guys have helped me the whole way through. Id still be growing in water with some air stones and air pumps if i wouldnt have came across this thread. Thanks again!


----------



## travish413 (Dec 17, 2009)

No... I take back what i said about dywer. They just called me back and actually tore one apart right then and she wired it up to make sure what she thought should work did and called me back and told me basically the same as what you all have explained to me.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 17, 2009)

Atomizer
You are familiar with these dywer switches. Well, like i said i just spoke with the customer service and they said that they had made a mistake and that each line and motor screw will control two seperate systems. You know how there is two on top and two on bottom? You probably already know this but just a little info i thoght id pass on just in case...


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 17, 2009)

Should have it all sorted now 
The dwyer switch could do either the high side or low side voltage of the transformer. Switching the 120v side is better for the transformer than leaving it powered up 24/7 and just switching the 24v output on/off. It won`t run often enough to warrant leaving it on  
The transformer is probably rated something like 120vac @ 300mA, 24vac @ 1amp.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 19, 2009)

Just got my netafim parts in today. I got the orange pin check valves and i also got the 4 head fogger but it has a green pin. I am guessing they have the same specs? Do you have any idea Atomizer? The nozzles are alot smaller than what i was expecting... Which is perfect bc i was afraid they were going to be to big. They just looked big in the video on their web site i guess. Anyway, I am ready to test these dgt misters out too and see how they do. I will keep yall informed.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 19, 2009)

Not sure about the green, is that the colour of the adv pin or the nozzles? 
A 4-way cross assembly is fairly compact, 2"x 2" square or about 2.5" across the diagonal and 3" high including the adv and base.
edit: Color code indicator: 
Purple opening pressure: 2.0 bar closing pressure: 0.9 bar 
*Green opening pressure : 3.0 bar closing pressure: 1.5 bar 
Orange opening pressure: 4.0 bar closing pressure: 1.8 bar


----------



## travish413 (Dec 19, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Not sure about the green, is that the colour of the adv pin or the nozzles?
> A 4-way cross assembly is fairly compact, 2"x 2" square or about 2.5" across the diagonal and 3" high including the adv and base.
> edit: Color code indicator:
> Purple opening pressure: 2.0 bar closing pressure: 0.9 bar
> ...


 green is the color of the pin. should i put the four head fogger on the orange or green pins in your opinioin, or what would be the determining factor?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 19, 2009)

I`d definitely go with the orange pin adv`s. The green and purple pin versions are used with lower system pressures.
The determining factor is just pump pressure, a pump with 50psi max couldn`t manage an orange pin adv as they won`t open below 58psi.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 20, 2009)

Well, I am waiting for my cycle timer and solenoid to come in. I have been thinking about how I should run my plumbing and wanted to run it by yall and get some input if yall didnt mind. The inlet and outlet on my pump is 3/8" and my acc. tand in 1" I have some misters that i wanted to try that fit on a 1/2" and some that fit on a 3/8" I thought i would run 3/8" tube to the acc. tank where it would be increased to an inch tee. Then I would reduce down to half inch pvc and connect the remaining misters i had to the 1/2" line. Incorporate quick connects to the 1/2" line for the 3/8" misters and just drill holes in the pvc for the dgt misters that just use the 1/2" pvc. Does that make sense???....


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 20, 2009)

Plumbing in everything between the pump and the solenoid is likely to be the trickiest part of the job.
You have the pump, pressure switch, pressure gauge, accumulator (ideally with an inline shutoff valve), PRV, an outlet for draining back to res and finally the solenoid. Its a pity they don`t use a single pipe/thread size for everything..but that`d be too easy


----------



## travish413 (Dec 20, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Plumbing in everything between the pump and the solenoid is likely to be the trickiest part of the job.
> You have the pump, pressure switch, pressure gauge, accumulator (ideally with an inline shutoff valve), PRV, an outlet for draining back to res and finally the solenoid. Its a pity they don`t use a single pipe/thread size for everything..but that`d be too easy


 Yeah, I am just going to have to trust myself and do it. I am just waiting for the pressure switch and its just eating me up and i cant hardly wait.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 22, 2009)

The Delavan small SN nozzles and the adapters I ordered from Patriot Supply are still not here yet. They just did send me a shipping inventory on Saturday. I assume that means they made it to the Post Office yesterday. Cheaper than from Stephen but definitely not quick. Stephen however was far from quick. Patriot Supply said they had to order the adapters. They are about half of Stephens quoted prices though. I have 30 days off and nothing new to play with.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 22, 2009)

I know this doesnt have anything to do with this thread but I trust yalls opinion more than anybody elses. I am about to buy a couple new inline fans and was wondering what yall used and what you thought about vortex. I was going to get 2 6in vortex. One more thing envriomental control? If yall get could any one or if you have the one you want which one is it? I want to be able to control everything with one unit.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 22, 2009)

just got my dywer switch in! gonna get in all hooked up and take some pics and let yall critque it.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 22, 2009)

Hi Travish,
Set the bypass pressure on the pump first, then set the dwyer switch cut-in/cut-out without the accumulator. Finally set the accumulator air precharge to 2psi lower than the pump cut-in pressure. If you have the 20gal accumulator inline when you set up the switch you`ll be there for hours waiting for it to fill 

Fatman, 
Fingers crossed for you that the rest of the bits arrive before xmas puts the brakes on the post office.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 22, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Travish,
> Set the bypass pressure on the pump first, then set the dwyer switch cut-in/cut-out without the accumulator. Finally set the accumulator air precharge to 2psi lower than the pump cut-in pressure. If you have the 20gal accumulator inline when you set up the switch you`ll be there for hours waiting for it to fill
> 
> Fatman,
> Fingers crossed for you that the rest of the bits arrive before xmas puts the brakes on the post office.


 Thanks for the advice ! Oh yeah, the post office doesnt take a break. Just christmas day. I work for the slave drivers No, its not that bad.... But thanks again for the tip.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

Consider the design of a vortex fan. They simply take a large fan and put reducers on each side so that it is basically something like a 8 or 10 inch fan stuck between two 6 inch ducts. Nothing special there. Just as long as the transitions are smooth tapers it will work in any DIY situation. Also consider furnaces use squirrel cage fans not a prop type fan. This is beacuse squirrel cage fans work more efficiently where there are pressure differences. A squirrel cage fan uses lesss power when faced witha pressure differnce wherae as a prop type fans power suage incraeses when there is a pressure difference. This means a higher wattage lower flow squirrel cage fan when pushing against the friction of long ducts and carbon filters will provide the same or more air movement than a [rop type fan advertised at the smae wattage and a higher flow. However if the fan will not experience long ducy ts abnd carbon filters etc then a prop fan would p operate more efficiently. A squirel cage fan without pressure differences use its maximum rated wattage.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

Some more interesting siphon air atomizer nozzles. They even sell a lot in plastic. http://www.i-spraynozzle.com/en_Spray_Nozzle_Detail.asp?l_title=Clean-out-Air-Atomizing-nozzle&id=86&bid=60 These lool a lot like those in the old retailed systems.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 23, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> Consider the design of a vortex fan. They simply take a large fan and put reducers on each side so that it is basically something like a 8 or 10 inch fan stuck between two 6 inch ducts. Nothing special there. Just as long as the transitions are smooth tapers it will work in any DIY situation. Also consider furnaces use squirrel cage fans not a prop type fan. This is beacuse squirrel cage fans work more efficiently where there are pressure differences. A squirrel cage fan uses lesss power when faced witha pressure differnce wherae as a prop type fans power suage incraeses when there is a pressure difference. This means a higher wattage lower flow squirrel cage fan when pushing against the friction of long ducts and carbon filters will provide the same or more air movement than a [rop type fan advertised at the smae wattage and a higher flow. However if the fan will not experience long ducy ts abnd carbon filters etc then a prop fan would p operate more efficiently. A squirel cage fan without pressure differences use its maximum rated wattage.


thats funny you mention furnace blowers. back in the day thats all i use to use. id go around to heating companies and ask them to save there old blowers from furnace upgrades they were doing. id give 20 bucks for them and they were happy and i was happy not having to spend 200-300 hundred on an inline fan. id put them in a box with fitted intake and exhaust. they really worked good. used them for years. now i use Fantech. they are some really nice fans. i also have some vortex and there ok for light jobs but nothing beats the fantech fk XL series. able to push thru alot of static pressure . but at 550 a pop not cheap.

Man i never thought id have to say this but the chambers are not big enough. they have filled almost completely up and are closing in on the misters. im very glad i kept things small(shrubs not trees) to test. i think ill be able to make it but i can see im going to have to have larger chambers for trees. im sure if i would have had it dialed in from the beginning id really be in trouble as there defineatly wouldednt have been enough room. thats abou 5.5 cubis feet filled . just some thing to nthink about. i know most of you guys are into smaller ladies but anyone interested in trees id recommend larger chambers.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 23, 2009)

By every thing I have read, and I surprisingly found quite a few good reference text and studies on Google scholar, it is not unusual for the root mass on 5 to 6 50 micro misted root masses to be upt to four times larger than any other root masses from any other growing methods. I am still planning on two to three feet deep chambers 36 inches square. I figure on making several different tops. One set for for a plant every square foot and one set for a sog at 4 per square foot. By what I have read the SOG should be so tight that the bottoms will be pretty much self pruning due to minimal light shading. I am hoping with high temps to catually get 5 weeks budding cycles and with more selective care with some new mothers to maybe get down to 1 week of heavy veg lighting and four weeks of budding with afghani/indica crosses. I heard in Amsterdam they have been growing 4 foot white russians (white Widow and AK47 crosses) in two weeks veg from rooted clones and 5 week bloom with air atomization chambers, CO2, temps at high 80's to low 90's and warm water nutrients (82 degrees). They are using low level chlorine constantly because the root masses are so thick. Four nozzles to a chamber for the last 3 weeks. A grower friend of mine just spent 9 weeks over there. His operation was closed down 6 months ago so he is doing serious seed shopping.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 23, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> By every thing I have read, and I surprisingly found quite a few good reference text and studies on Google scholar, it is not unusual for the root mass on 5 to 6 50 micro misted root masses to be upt to four times larger than any other root masses from any other growing methods. I am still planning on two to three feet deep chambers 36 inches square. I figure on making several different tops. One set for for a plant every square foot and one set for a sog at 4 per square foot. By what I have read the SOG should be so tight that the bottoms will be pretty much self pruning due to minimal light shading. I am hoping with high temps to catually get 5 weeks budding cycles and with more selective care with some new mothers to maybe get down to 1 week of heavy veg lighting and four weeks of budding with afghani/indica crosses. I heard in Amsterdam they have been growing 4 foot white russians (white Widow and AK47 crosses) in two weeks veg from rooted clones and 5 week bloom with air atomization chambers, CO2, temps at high 80's to low 90's and warm water nutrients (82 degrees). They are using low level chlorine constantly because the root masses are so thick. Four nozzles to a chamber for the last 3 weeks. A grower friend of mine just spent 9 weeks over there. His operation was closed down 6 months ago so he is doing serious seed shopping.


i dont know yet if the finishing times will be quicker. i usually let things go a little longer than is probably necessary because i only do one or two runs a year. i can say that from my LP days there is no way these chambers would have filled up. LP roots go to the bottom and there they just create a mat. with this system the roots get real fluffy with large air spaces between them. kind of like cotton candy. and the majority of the root fluffyness only has occured in the last 2 weeks since ive got the thing more dialed in. (way less misting, especially at night. only 2 sec every 30 minutes at night. 2 sec every 10 during day.) 

im thinking i will use these chambers for veg and get me some 100 gallon or larger to finish in. Now i know that pump based HP aero can generate the same fine root systems that ive seen in the atomix. you just have to get it dialed in.

I might go for the air atomizing though anyway in the 100 gallon chambers if time permits this summer to manufacture a setup. If not ill go with the same system just bigger chambers.

I know i mentioned it before but even with small girls sog style i would incorporate a way to keep all the roots out of the runoff. you can see a marked difference in the roots above the runoff and those in the runoff. and if you try to decrease the moisture level to accomadate the runoff roots the others suffer somewhat from too little moisture. im going to go with the silk screen bottoms no matter which way i go on the new chambers. (pump based or air compressor based.)

Im sure those roots in the runoff act like NFT or DWC roots. they certainly look like them. maybe they are benifical in that they can pick up large amounts of water to meet the needs of large plants but i think a large mass of the fine roots could probably accomplish the same purpose.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 23, 2009)

I still havent cut my ibc tank yet for the chamber. From what i am reading though i think i am going to cut it about 24 inches and use a couple different tops for different grow ops. I am going to put one of the netafim 4 head foggers in the chamber first and see how that works. I might go ahead and install all my misters. just have each with a valve to shut off, so i can run one set at a time.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 23, 2009)

Sounds like ibc`s would make perfect root chambers for trees, 35 cubic feet should be big enough.You probably need 10-12ft ceilings to accomodate them unless you can dig them into the floor


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 23, 2009)

travish413 said:


> I still havent cut my ibc tank yet for the chamber. From what i am reading though i think i am going to cut it about 24 inches and use a couple different tops for different grow ops. I am going to put one of the netafim 4 head foggers in the chamber first and see how that works. I might go ahead and install all my misters. just have each with a valve to shut off, so i can run one set at a time.


i think you should keep it as big as possible to allow the most room. i actually think now that it would be better for me to have 6 nozzels in the chambers but with half the flow as these. the reason being the roots have crawled right up the vertical walls of the smooth sink walls and have attached themselves to the tubing that feeds the misters and have started to close in on the misters. so basically they are starting to attach themselves to the chamber roof now. 

id also really suggest you keep the misters so that you can access them from the outside of the tank. i should have circled the tubing around the top of the lid on the outside instead of the inside and then drilled holes to let the nozzels drop thru the lid. the reason being i have had a few nozzels. (5 out of 16) clog. and even though i have the access ports to reach thru to the nozzels to change them, now that the roots are closing in on the nozzels there isnt much space to get to the nozzels to change out if necessary.

of coarse i dont know how big you plan to go with them. this is with 4 week veg.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 23, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Sounds like ibc`s would make perfect root chambers for trees, 35 cubic feet should be big enough.You probably need 10-12ft ceilings to accomodate them unless you can dig them into the floor


i was thinking of these as they are only 25 inches tall(180gallon) and would drain completly under the silk screen fake bottoms. id just put them on wheels and insulate them. self supporting sidewalls also. about 20 cubic feet. could still get 6ft tree and 2 ft container so 8 ft ceiling
http://www.polytankco.com/semi-square_tanks.html


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 23, 2009)

They look good, the cone bottom is a nice feature too no doubts they are quite pricey? 
I was thinking you may be able to use a large but fairly shallow chamber with pvc tubes pushed through the sides (like some kind of magicians prop that would use swords hehe) and just keep hanging the roots over the tubes as they get longer. 
You`d convert the bulk of initial vertical root length into the horizontal plane and still keep it suspended. It would inevitably grow downwards too but at that point it would be covering a large flat area as well. You could pack at least 10ft of drop into a fairly compact expanding horizontal square or circular spiral.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 24, 2009)

I have ten feet of space if i wasnt using the damn tent,i thought was such a great idea... Anyway the tank is about 36 in so I may try two different sides of the spectrum and cut a 22in chamber and a 14in chamber. I will use the 14in for the tent and i plan on trashing the tent after this last grow and just build my own grow area.
Then i could use the bigger chamber. But with the light hanging down say a foot or so I figure i will have about 8ft. is 24in still too big? If so, I will think of a way like you were talkin about with the pipes stuck all in the chamber. Im not a magician but it sounds like a good idea


----------



## travish413 (Dec 24, 2009)

I am going to cut the tank at 16 to 18in. I think i will try something similar to atomizers idea with the pvc for the roots to hang over. See what yall think about this...  I will cut around 4 / 3in holes on a 3x4 top. The chamber measures 3x4 also... was just going to plant one every foot... Put the 4 holes on one end and as the roots grow use atomizers idea and put pvc or something to hold the roots up and just continue along the side of the chamber as the roots grow and just let them hang down at the other end of the chamber... Sound like it would do ok to yall?


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 24, 2009)

18" seems like a reasonable compromise and it gives you two chambers. 
If you need more height you could probably fix a waterproof skirt to the top panel that holds the plants and extend that down into the chamber to prevent any mist escaping. I picture the top panel something like a 4-legged table with a waterproof tablecloth that sits inside your ibc  You could make the root support tubes part of the leg framework to add rigidity.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 24, 2009)

Most of the orginal set ups used in intial federally funded academic research were just plastic tents over agalvanized pipe frame works with a rigid top thrown over that. The top had spaced holes and they would just cut slits in the plastic film where needed. The also though initially believed that the hair root development was a bad thing and that it was a result of under watering. They consider it a bad thing because the thick mass prevented adequate watering of the inner mass of roots leading to root death. They then decided the hair roots were good then decided to just deal with the root die off in the roots mass center and in the drainage water through continual use of low chlorine concentrations.

I hope that minimal watering, drain matting, and drain to waste along with deep chambers will allow for very large hair root masses with minimal chlorine use. I however have no qualms about low level residual chlorine usage. After all it would be at levels below the residual levels that are used in U.S. tap water drank by millions of people daily. There have been no plant tissue tests that have shown chloride accumalation in plant tissue form chlorine use and it is used my many thousand of commercial green house growers on a continual basis from rooting to harvest. The reagents for testing water chorine levels total and residual are only about 20 cents so monitroing levels would be cheap enough.

One thing that has surprised ne is in the research documents there is a fairly regular mentioning of the advantages of adequate venting of the chamber. Also a lot of talk about nozzles (both high pressure and air atomizing) made of polymers that greatly decreased the clogging issues.

One of the good things about the retailed units seemed to be the use of externally installed nozzles. With my chambers actually filling the areas confines that only allows nozzles being inserted from one side. As I plan on a solenoid with in inches of the nozzle due to gravity feed I am considering a few acryclic plastic boxes installed along the other outter walls on the inside of the chamber that extend to the top. They will have there own covers. These will be plumbed with a nutrient fed solenoid and air line so that nozzles can be a simply plug in affair. I assume nozzle clogging will be an issue so I expect to rotate nozzles on a two week basis need it or not. Means keeping a full extra set of nozzles and adapters, but considering the products value that does bnot seem unreasonable.

Time will tell. In the mean time half of my nozzles and none of my adapters have shown up yet.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 24, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> 18" seems like a reasonable compromise and it gives you two chambers.
> If you need more height you could probably fix a waterproof skirt to the top panel that holds the plants and extend that down into the chamber to prevent any mist escaping. I picture the top panel something like a 4-legged table with a waterproof tablecloth that sits inside your ibc  You could make the root support tubes part of the leg framework to add rigidity.


I was actually thinking of something similar, but instead the leg and framework be on the outside. The reason being is bc i was going to incorporate some foam insulation and needed something to hold it. But who knows what itll end up looking like when i am finished


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 24, 2009)

travish413 said:


> I was actually thinking of something similar, but instead the leg and framework be on the outside. The reason being is bc i was going to incorporate some foam insulation and needed something to hold it. But who knows what itll end up looking like when i am finished


You can put the frame work on the outside put at lest the bottom of the tent materila should hang inside the chamber so that the nutrient solution is contained. I have always been amazed that the grow tent manafactures do not sell thir tents wiy th a layer of insulation between the outter black layer and an inner white layer. Even an inch of fiberglass insulation would make a huge difference. What would it take, maybe attaching the inner to outter layer of covering once every 6 inchs or so. It would increses the shipping box size quite a bit though.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 25, 2009)

New toys!!!! My adapters finally arrived along with the smaller nozzles. Well machined, even the adapters. Definitely industrial weight. Looks like they are made heavy enough to be worked on by heavy equipment mechanics or apes. Weight of 93 grams for just one 2 inch long adapter.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 25, 2009)

here is some pics of HP aero roots for you guys. as you can see they are closing in on the misters. you dont get roots like this with LP aero.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 26, 2009)

Very nice roots, TF 
They are a far cry from the usual half drowned, straggly looking roots normally associated with "aero"  
As nice as they are i`m sure you`ve only tapped a very small percentage of the potential performance..its almost a frightening thought


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

About how many weeks did take to reach that root ball volume? And this is also considering the root development has gone through ups and downs as you have tested for best spray times etc? And no special DO enhancment or great efforts at temp control etc? And using low EC nutrient water?

Them small micro droplets sprayed intermittant are not likey going to be out performed by any other type of system anty time soon, if ever. That seems obvious.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 26, 2009)

Another thing that stands out is the quantity of nutes. It may be somewhere around 1.8L (0.5 gallon) a day per chamber judging by TF`s current cycle timings. Thrifty in all departments except growth rate.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Another thing that stands out is the quantity of nutes. It may be somewhere around 1.8L (0.5 gallon) a day per chamber judging by TF`s current cycle timings. Thrifty in all departments except growth rate.


How much does he thinks goes to drain i.e. how much does he thinks the roots are taking up. What is the ph and EC of the presently used nutes.

Humidity, temp etc. GIVE ME, GIVE ME. I love food. I am an emperical data hog.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 26, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> About how many weeks did take to reach that root ball volume? And this is also considering the root development has gone through ups and downs as you have tested for best spray times etc? And no special DO enhancment or great efforts at temp control etc? And using low EC nutrient water?
> 
> Them small micro droplets sprayed intermittant are not likey going to be out performed by any other type of system anty time soon, if ever. That seems obvious.


well fatman that is 4 weeks veg 4 weeks flower but im going to show you a picture of what the first 4 weeks of veg and 2 weeksof flower looked like. now im not proud of this pic but i want peeps to learn so they dont have to go thru the same trail and error. i was using 2 sec 2min,2 sec 4min, 2 sec 6min for most of the 4 week veg and 2 week flower and you can see from the pic the roots were shit. the tremendous fluffy root explosion only started when i went to 2 sec 10 min and now im at 2 sec 10 min for 9 hrs of light cycle and then 2 sec 15 min for the last 2 hrs light cycle then the lights off cycle is 2 sec 30 minutes.

.5 conversion ppm is 600 going in and runoff is coming out around 300ppm. there is only about 1/2 to 3/4 gallon runoff during lights off cycle but during lights on cycle it usually is around 1- 1.25 gallon. ive been using the Lucas formula but am not happy with it as i feel its not giving quite the right ratios for DTW. im not sure what is not quite right with the ratios but i know there not right on. im still trying to figure the correct levels for EC and ph that work best. Even though i have had many ups and downs trying to figure this out the ladies are still doing quite well and i expect they will finish well also.

90 percent of the browning has went away. the only browning that remains is on the roots that are on the very chamber floor. thus my recommendation to keep all the roots off the runoff. which i will do when i run the system again but that might not be for awhile.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

The Lucas Ratio is low in phosphorus at a N of 1:2 where its should be 1 to 3 - 8, and it is above high in Potash. The nitrogen to potash ratio should be 1 Nitrogen to (0.25 to 1.5) potash. Lucas is 5:9 so therefore 1 to 1.8. However if you drop the ratio to 1:1 them you will likely be low in calcium. There is already too much magnesium so losing half of each would be fine. There is also the problem with GH using micro nutrients at the high end and high pressure aero and atomized aero seem to experience toxicity problems at standardly used levels. If it were me if using over the counter fertilizers I would try using using 1 part Bloom, 1/2 part Micro and then add some Calcium Nitrate to increase the calcium and nitrogen back up. Or better yet use calcium hydroxide to raise the calcium, leave the Nitrogen lower but use phosphoric acid to raise thelower the pH after the calcium hydroxide lowers it anf it will incraese the phosphorus level which is low.

Lucas method?formula isn't really a good mix it is just a simple mix that requires that you only buy two bottles of their nutrients rather than three. Like that really simplifies things. At the risk of the wrath of many, The Lucas method/formula really sucks. Even his top off plan is sucky. But it saves on the amounts of nutrients you must buy. It does work, but it definitely does not provide anywhere near the best results. Just a long lasting bad fad. 

IMHO I would seriously consider knocking the EC down to about 0.3. I believe your water to drain would decrease even spraying the same amount at the same cycles as the lower EC should increase your water takeup as long as your humidity is not too high. It is hard to experience toxicity problems and over fertilization with heavy transpiration and low EC. However your humidity might be up there too high to take full davantage of low EC and therefore high transpiration. I have to keep humidity around 30% during budding and 40% max during vegging to keep high transporation and I likely run higher temps. Your roots can obviously up take more water with them being nearly all hair roots, but yiu need to transpire more to do that. just a bunch of opinions though. You seem to be doing quite well now already. You seem to be way ahead of the progress ever made by those growers at UK420


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 26, 2009)

fatman
do you think if i used one part bloom and half part micro and then supplemented with calmag i could get close to something to finish this run out with. Any idea how many ppm to use in R/O water of calmag. my calmag has some nitrogen in it.i know they recommend 3-5ml per gallon but if i did that it would be almost half of the total EC. i have been using 1.5-2 ml per gallon. 

im going to try a DTW fert or try to mix my own or i might try bios nute specifically designed for HP aero when i do another run.

i have tried the .3 level EC and at those levels that is when i started seeing signs of overall yellowing and where the veins stayed green on some leafs as the rest of the leaf turned yellow. i also noticed some purple hues to the leaf tips. i started uping the EC to its present level and i seem to have slowed it to a halt but i can still see they arent the nice overall green id like to see.

when i was at 150 ppm the runoff use to come out at 10ppm. they were using everything. as my R/O water starts at 10ppm. as ive uped the EC the runoff levels have gone up also. the humidity stays around 30 percent during lights on and 40-50 percent lights out. i think uping the Ec has helped them get what they were lacking and they are just leaving the excess. man i wish i had the test equipment to see what they were really using or what they need more of but at this time i dont have that or even the time to to get it. i defineatly need to get a better grasp of the nute science although i know from many LP aero days that they arent in serious trouble just not at optimal levels. there is plenty of room to improve.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

If your humidity is already low then you would have to kick up the temp to get more transpiration. Kicking up the temp would mean CO2 though.

Looking at the bigger picture firs We can pick the ratio that is the fmost off and adjust from there Phosphorus is the grossly high ppm
Recommended ratios**** then lucas ratios*****Then 1 to 1 ratios of Micro to Bloom.
N******1 to 3-8*****1:2******1:1 So Phosphorus low with either Lucas or 1:1
N:K******1 to 0.25 - 1.5***5:9****5:5 So Potash is high with Lucas but OK with 1:1
Ca:N*****1 to 0.8-1.2****5:5****5:5 So calcium is good with both
Mg:N*****0.1 to 0.4*****3:5****1.5:5 So magnesium is OK with Lucas low with 1:1
P:S******0.6 to 1******10:2****5:2 Either Phosphorus is high or Sulfur is low with both mainly with Lucas as N says acceptable or low we chose Sulphur low

Damn what a sloppy couple of formulas/mixes. I have never really looked them this closely before beacuse most grwoing methods utilix zed and uptake nutrients poorly and most grows are very low transpiration at too high humidities so good formulations aren't really needed. Obviously a high tranpiration low humidity low water ae high pressure aero or atomizer system will not be so forgiving. Firts the phosphorus. Deficiency of phosphorus appears as a dull green coloration of the older leaves followed by purple and brown colours as the foliage dies. The main source of phosphorus in hydroponics is monopotasium phosphate, but limited amounts of ammonium phosphate can be added. Herein is the a place for a choice. You do not need more potash as would come from monopotassium phosphate. So that means getting more phosophorus by adding some ammonium phosphate. However with ammonium phosphate usually comes a daily pH drop in the reservoir. *However* as you are drain to waste now that is no longer and issue. So I would si uggest boosting your phosphate level with some ammonium phoshate. While your sulphur is low I have never heard of anyone using trace elements that are sulfates that develops sulphur defiencies yet alone when they also use magnesium sulfate. This just leaves a border line calcium level that will become a bit worse with increased nitrogen. As it is just a small amomount it would be easiest increased with just a little calcium chloride. As long as it is not the principle sourse of calcium the small amount of chloride will not matter. If you continue to want to use GH I will mix up some Micro for you to lower the micronutrient levels as that is also a known problem with high pressure aero and atomized aero systems. I think your main problem is your really just your Nitrogen to phosphorus ratio and the borderline calcium is just an agravator. hopefully it is not toxic levels of micronutrients also as it would y take two weeks to get a batch of lower concentrate micro nutrient mix to you. The Postal service really sucks now with the holidays.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 26, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Very nice roots, TF
> They are a far cry from the usual half drowned, straggly looking roots normally associated with "aero"
> As nice as they are i`m sure you`ve only tapped a very small percentage of the potential performance..its almost a frightening thought


i think your right on that one. i can see a tree easily filling a 4x4 by 14"-18"hieght. it was a blessing in disguiese that i didnt have the misting cycle right from the start cause if i would have im sure there would not be enough room in the chamber to finish them. as it is i am still concerned that the misters might get chocked off. i figure if worst comes to worst ill just reach in there and move the roots away from the misters as gently as possible just to make it thru to the end. off coarse now im thinking i could have got the same veg results in 3 weeks time if it would have been closer to ideal.

you know doing the math they are only seeing aroung 2 gallons aday as you said. now im sure that over a gallon is ending up in the drain. as the drain goes into a gallon jug and its just starting to flow over at lights out. then when lights come back on there is usually a little less than half in the jug. that sounds like they are hardly drinking anything. i wonder how accurate the flow rate is for those nozzels rated at.08oz per sec. im sure i also have some runon as the selonoid shuts off cause of the tubing. being liberal maybe im getting an extra gallon aday to the chambers but that still means they are only using 1.75 gallons aday. that doesnt seem right am i missing something.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

tree farmer said:


> i think your right on that one. i can see a tree easily filling a 4x4 by 14"-18"hieght. it was a blessing in disguiese that i didnt have the misting cycle right from the start cause if i would have im sure there would not be enough room in the chamber to finish them. as it is i am still concerned that the misters might get chocked off. i figure if worst comes to worst ill just reach in there and move the roots away from the misters as gently as possible just to make it thru to the end. off coarse now im thinking i could have got the same veg results in 3 weeks time if it would have been closer to ideal.
> 
> you know doing the math they are only seeing aroung 2 gallons aday as you said. now im sure that over a gallon is ending up in the drain. as the drain goes into a gallon jug and its just starting to flow over at lights out. then when lights come back on there is usually a little less than half in the jug. that sounds like they are hardly drinking anything. i wonder how accurate the flow rate is for those nozzels rated at.08oz per sec. im sure i also have some runon as the selonoid shuts off cause of the tubing. being liberal maybe im getting an extra gallon aday to the chambers but that still means they are only using 1.75 gallons aday. that doesnt seem right am i missing something.


Considering the weight they are putting on per day they are taking on quaite abit of water. You said the humidity is pretty low so things sound pretty good considering it is a ambient air grow. Plants do not respire at nearly as much as they transpire during the day as they alos transpire some during the day. Water use at night should be pretty minimal. Your water use during the day is going to be dependent on the other growing parameters. ie lights, temp CO2 and humidity. Unless everything increases but they humidity which must be kept low no increases in water uptake will happen dramatically. Also as your palnts ought to seem almost dwarfy as far as height growth is efficiently compacted and therefore water usage should be less than taller more open plants as humidity within the branches of bushy plants also slows transpiration as the humidity is higher amongst the bushy plants versus stretched more open growth as found with with a typical grow.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 26, 2009)

fatman
do you think any of these nutes designed for aero approximate the right ratio for the ladies.
http://www.biocontrols.com/secure/shop/category.asp?catid=19


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 26, 2009)

I cant really say until I get to grow some and do the dialy nutrient tests. I have the equipment for the testing, but I have not yet set up the grow so I have been having to just go might waht little I have been able to find. There is some good readinf g on goggle scholera but I have to down laod from work as the acoount is te ied to my office IP. There is not a lot of dat though it seems to be a line here a pargaraph there. The problem with nutrient sold for home growers is that they do not teach anything to growers as it would cut their power, control and profits. They actually deisgn nutrients ti be used fith poorly designed systems and ignore formulations for good systems. It is like when people stared the stupid small low pressure tube fad. They adjusted the fertilizers so as to make large profits selling to those people rather than telling them that the systems will not work properly with balanced nutrients. same thing with DWC and NTF etc. They make alot of money supplying bad fixes for bad systems. they have the resources to develop growing systems and good nutrient formulations at the same time. However they make for money just testing nutrients on poor systems and letting hobbietsts bungle along.

When it comes to hydroponic fertilizers they worry about hard water and carbonates more than anything else. That is followed by calcium and in doing that they use calcium nitrate. Then thet y bounce down phosphorus, however they always use monopottasium phosphate as many hobby growers do not even buy pH meters, and ammonium phosphate as I earlier mentioned causes pH problems in resrvoirs where nutrients are recycled. This has really only been a problem for a few yeas as until a few u yeras ab go much more ammonium phospahte was used as there were fewer hydroponic growers. the manafactures switched over to more monopottasium phosphate and have neraly completely quit using ammonium nitrate. Ammonium nitrate is fine as long as if you recycle nutrients you also at laest daily adjust your ph. up again. But as that would mean a bunch of people wo do not do so as many don't even buy pH meters, they have dropped ammonium phosphate use and therefore sell poorly balanced fertilizers with low levels of phosphorus. To have adequate phosphorus it would be likely that they would have to actually teach peple how to make soluble calcium daditives and use ammonium phospahte maening losing customers who don't use pH meters. Or v be honest with them about tap water analysis and RO water. Calcium levels are a big thing with aero and hydro. They are the first major problem in mis xing a gfood formula. Too many people saty you must remove all the calcium to start out with fresh pure water. The stupid thing is the firstthing they do is start with calcium nitarte to get the proper level of calcium anf d then try to fit everything around the calcium. It all just gets worse from there. I gurantee you if you are formulato ing a nutrient formula for water that already has 50 or 100 milligranms of soluble calcium in it them mis xing the formula balanced is much easier thamn if you start out with a zer TDS water.

T o shorten it all down to a few words. It is easiest to mix your own nutrients or have them mixed by a friend than to try to doctor up retail nutrients. formulations should be bi uilt around your taop water unless it is really bad. If bad you remove everthing then add some c soluble calcium. then you design a formula for your needs based upom water that larday has some soluble calcium in it. This gives you the ltatude y to get proper balances. It is done that way through out the commercial green houses food industry. The way it is done in the pot growind hooby is at the convience of the manafacturers to make it simplier and more profitable for them. If you wish me to be specific it will have to be by PM. I can tell you excatly how to prepare a good balanced formula from RO water by PM. I'll give you a hint. By PM.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 26, 2009)

Thanks for that info Atomizer! Man TF those roots are sexy!! I guess i will go straight to budding when they go from the cloner to the grow chamber. I still want to put one big hole in the middle or make a seperate top with one big hole and grow a huge tree 
Fatman your info on nutes is great! Keep up the good work guys! Hopefully I will be taking clones soon. Still waiting on my mothers to get big enough...


----------



## OregonMeds (Dec 26, 2009)

Wow, impressive stuff here.

Marking for further reading...


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 26, 2009)

Hi TF, 
Just as a heads up I sent the "info" to the guys on the thread via pm, we`re keeping the info details on the QT for now 

The only way to be sure about the nozzle output is to measure it at maximum system pressure, it`ll have the highest flowrate. The air assisted nozzles do have the edge of controllable liquid flow, an accumulator based system is stuck with whatever the nozzles deliver.
I did some testing to see how short a mist pulse i could get. Using purple nozzles,4 bar advs and 90psi, i can get it down to a 0.5 second pulse measured from the instant the mist starts to the instant it stops...its really just a blip 
You can get an idea of how long that is with this: http://www.online-stopwatch.com/

It would be interesting if you put a cup or something under one of your nozzles to collect the water, with 2 seconds you should get 4.73ml or about a teaspoonful.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 26, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF,
> Just as a heads up I sent the "info" to the guys on the thread via pm, we`re keeping the info details on the QT for now
> 
> The only way to be sure about the nozzle output is to measure it at maximum system pressure, it`ll have the highest flowrate. The air assisted nozzles do have the edge of controllable liquid flow, an accumulator based system is stuck with whatever the nozzles deliver.
> ...


ill tell you one thing im going to add to the system is a little remote controll to fire the selonoid while im over by the pods. its impossible for me to fire the selonoid and have the latch cover open and be by the pod at the same time. i realized this flaw awhile back when wanting to check for nozzel blockage. now to check the nozzels i have to turn the misters on continuous and then run to one pod and check quick and then run back to the switch by the cycle timer then do it all over for each pod. it sucks because it saturates the roots for a bit and that little bit can destroy the fine root hairs. they recover quickly but still dont like doing it.
but ill hook a little remote than i can fire while im standing with my hand by the nozzels. i just dont want to do it now because it sucks trying to rework a system while it is in operation.

i guess maybe i could try to duct tape a small vitamin bottle or something similar to one of the nozzels when it fires. although with the roots closing in that wont be very easy either.

your right about the air assisted being able to reach those 1sec and .5 sec pulses easier but as you know the accumulator with the system tweaked can still do a fairly close job. man .5 sec goes quick.

in that info it sounds like the air exchange in the chambers seems to be of importance. im wondering how the accumulator systems are getting this exchange. my chambers are sealed pretty well with weather stripping. i wonder if they suffer for that. the roots smell good though(earthy smell) like potatoes when you dig them up.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 27, 2009)

The remote sounds like a good idea, the 10 minutes pause time would make it a tedious job if you waited for the cycle. I guess having ample space in the root chamber would sort out any air exchange issues.
Hydraulic nozzles will do a great job if they have a low flow and are tightly controlled. Its the little things that make a big difference, i found the relay and solenoid add a chunk to the overall timing as they have to open and close during the cycle. These will probably have some effect on air-assisted setups too.
Another variable for the mist pulse is the pressure in the pipework between the solenoid and the adv`s, it has to drop to a set level before the adv will close..adding even more time. You`ll gain a new math skill if you try to figure that one out.. "bulk modulus"  
To get the 0.5sec mist pulse i had to run the actual timer at 0.277 seconds, i`m not sure how low commercial cycle timers can go. Three or maybe four, 0.04oz nozzles in a 100gal chamber with a 0.5 second total misting pulse looks like it would be pretty good. 
The direct comparison equates to 2.36ml per 0.5 sec pulse (4 nozzles) versus 19ml with your current 4 nozzles on a 2 sec pulse with no run on.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 27, 2009)

Air pump supplying a diffuser and a vent hole in each chamber. More than likely your getting enough venting around your pots etc. Considering the quality of your roots I don't think you have an O2 shortage. A small airline though is not going to add enough dry air to cause harm though and it could possibly help. According to the Delvan charts a #11 nozzkles spraying 8 liters per hour is using 0.094 cubic meters per minute at its highest flow with the highest air volume. So the air requirements needed for adequate O2 is not that much if the atomix normally sprayed 1 second per minute as the atomizer air was its only air source Their unit was roughly 1/2 of a cubic meter receiving 0.01 of a cubic meter per hour. Maybe double that with two nozzles. While your HP misters are not supply air with ecah spray the air nozzles do not really supply a whole lot either. I have not read about supplemental air being supplied by anyone with air atomizers. I imagine a cheap small aquarium air pump would put out at least 0.1 cubic foot per minute, So about 0.17 cubic meters per hour. So a small pump could supply enough air for 17 full size atomix pods using HP misters rather than atomizers.



tree farmer said:


> ill tell you one thing im going to add to the system is a little remote controll to fire the selonoid while im over by the pods. its impossible for me to fire the selonoid and have the latch cover open and be by the pod at the same time. i realized this flaw awhile back when wanting to check for nozzel blockage. now to check the nozzels i have to turn the misters on continuous and then run to one pod and check quick and then run back to the switch by the cycle timer then do it all over for each pod. it sucks because it saturates the roots for a bit and that little bit can destroy the fine root hairs. they recover quickly but still dont like doing it.
> but ill hook a little remote than i can fire while im standing with my hand by the nozzels. i just dont want to do it now because it sucks trying to rework a system while it is in operation.
> 
> i guess maybe i could try to duct tape a small vitamin bottle or something similar to one of the nozzels when it fires. although with the roots closing in that wont be very easy either.
> ...


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 27, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> The remote sounds like a good idea, the 10 minutes pause time would make it a tedious job if you waited for the cycle. I guess having ample space in the root chamber would sort out any air exchange issues.
> Hydraulic nozzles will do a great job if they have a low flow and are tightly controlled. Its the little things that make a big difference, i found the relay and solenoid add a chunk to the overall timing as they have to open and close during the cycle. These will probably have some effect on air-assisted setups too.
> Another variable for the mist pulse is the pressure in the pipework between the solenoid and the adv`s, it has to drop to a set level before the adv will close..adding even more time. You`ll gain a new math skill if you try to figure that one out.. "bulk modulus"
> To get the 0.5sec mist pulse i had to run the actual timer at 0.277 seconds, i`m not sure how low commercial cycle timers can go. Three or maybe four, 0.04oz nozzles in a 100gal chamber with a 0.5 second total misting pulse looks like it would be pretty good.


The timers I have are 0.001 second to 9999 hours. Let me know if you ever want to get that specific. They are Omron H5CX-A timers.
https://www.omron247.com/Industrial-Automation/Store/OmronProductDetailView?productId=55435&langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10051&parent_category_rn=12327&technologyId=22711&familyId=12327&subFamilyId= I buy everyone I can on eBay.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 27, 2009)

Thanks for that Fatman, 
I don`t think i could go any lower as the limiting factor appears to be the fixed amount of delay caused by the other components. 
Its quite interesting to see what happens to TF`s current cycle timings with the lower flow nozzles and a fast misting pulse. If you keep the same hourly water delivery the same, 2sec/10min becomes 0.5sec/75 sec, 2sec/15min becomes 0.5sec/112sec and 2sec/30min becomes 0.5 sec/225 sec. The pause durations are almost on par with the atomix


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 27, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF,
> Just as a heads up I sent the "info" to the guys on the thread via pm, we`re keeping the info details on the QT for now
> 
> The only way to be sure about the nozzle output is to measure it at maximum system pressure, it`ll have the highest flowrate. The air assisted nozzles do have the edge of controllable liquid flow, an accumulator based system is stuck with whatever the nozzles deliver.
> ...


well i put a cup under the nozzel and waited for the mist. it was at 80psi on the gauge which is right before the pump kicks on. you did the math atomizer and the number should be 4.73 ml(i didnt do the math going by your figures) but it came out to 8.6 ml. dont ask me how this is but i measured with an eye dropper and a 2.5ml and a 1.2 ml spoon. thats what it came out to. 

this is at the low end of the cycle and your saying they put out more at the high end. correct. so these things cant be rated exactly right if your math is correct.

im going to try another nozzel tommorrow to see if i get the same result cause i didnt remember what you said it should be while i was there and now im puzzeled as to how its almost double what it should be.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 27, 2009)

Hi TF
Either the nozzle output is greater than the spec or the spec is correct and the pulse is longer than 2 seconds or a combination of both. 
It takes 3.65 seconds to deliver 8.6ml @ 8.51LPH, could the total mist pulse from start to finish be that long? 
To get an accurate output figure you`d need to run a single nozzle for a known amount of time, like a full minute at max pressure. Probably best to leave that test until after harvest 

Working with the new flowrate, running 2sec/10min cycles all day you`d deliver 1.3gal/day to each chamber. I`m sure its mist run-on, there`s no way your nozzles can be putting out 15.6LPH 

After a bit more math, the total amount of water going through the system may be somewhere around 3.287 gals/day, hows that compare to reality? 
Make that 3.361 gal/day, i geared the other figure to [email protected],[email protected] and [email protected] timing split instead of 10hr,2hr,12hr.


In the interest of science.. i tested a couple of nozzles by firing them directly into a 10ml syringe using 75psi pressure and a 0.5sec pulse.
The purple netafim nozzle (flowrate tested @ 6.75LPH) delivered exactly 1ml into the syringe which is pretty close to the 0.93ml calculated figure. 
As Travish has some grey netafims i tested one of those as well. The grey nozzle delivered 1.25ml into the syringe in 0.5 seconds, so i guess they deliver something like 8.6LPH @ 5 bar.

Here is the reallly interesting part, i did the same exact tests again but this time without an adv inline. 
The purple nozzle delivered a shade under 3.75ml, the grey did exactly 4ml into the syringe. The adv makes a huge difference to the performance. The test setup used a 5.5" length of 1/2" bore tube between the solenoid and the nozzle. If it was longer the results would be a lot worse.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 28, 2009)

I think thats solved the nozzle mystery, TF.
My 5.5" of pipe dropping from 75psi to 0psi (no adv) will deliver 2.579ml of water to the nozzle after the solenoid closes.
With a purple nozzle it equates to an extra 1.376 seconds of misting i didn`t plan on.
Putting the adv inline means the pressure in the pipe will only drop from 75psi to 26psi before the adv closes. It doesn`t sound like a big difference but it works out to a meager 0.0024ml of water being available for any run on instead of ~2.6ml. 
With a purple nozzle its only an extra 0.00128 seconds added to the pulse time.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 28, 2009)

You do know the average forum viewer reading what you just wrote is just going to say WTF, or have their eyes roll back into their skulls till just the whites show. Good useful info to us few that can follow it though.


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 28, 2009)

Some won`t want to know the how or why, only how to get around it  
I took a video of the mist pulse and stepped thru it frame by frame..the pulse takes exactly 0.7 seconds from start to finish.


----------



## OregonMeds (Dec 28, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> You do know the average forum viewer reading what you just wrote is just going to say WTF, or have their eyes roll back into their skulls till just the whites show. Good useful info to us few that can follow it though.



Yes we just need pictures of big trees.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 28, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Yes we just need pictures of big trees.


For some ignorance is bliss.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 28, 2009)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF
> Either the nozzle output is greater than the spec or the spec is correct and the pulse is longer than 2 seconds or a combination of both.
> It takes 3.65 seconds to deliver 8.6ml @ 8.51LPH, could the total mist pulse from start to finish be that long?
> To get an accurate output figure you`d need to run a single nozzle for a known amount of time, like a full minute at max pressure. Probably best to leave that test until after harvest
> ...


well i tryed another nozzel on a different pod and guess what it was almost exactly the same 8.7ml. now i pulled the cup away as soon as i heard the selonoid close but the run on probably still goes into the cup . at least some of it if its only 1-2 sec as its pretty hard to just yank the cup away from the nozzel because i have to manuveur the cup in thru the root maze to get it in position to capture the mist

As far as what im adding each day i havent been keeping exact measurments as i just look at the res and depending on how much time i have ill add some more. it seems to average out to about2-3 gallons aday that i add.

I guess without the adv's and the amount of tubing i have they are seeing more than i thought. its good to know the details as it will help me when i go to larger chambers for trees instead of shrubs.

im thinking im going to just put a 1/4 inch selonoid at each pod and keep the tubing pressurized to the pod. this way when the selonoid fires at the pod there would maybe only be 1-2 ft directly feeding the misters that would be unpressurized verse the 7 ft or so now to the back pods.


----------



## tree farmer (Dec 28, 2009)

OregonMeds said:


> Yes we just need pictures of big trees.


who doesnt like pictures of big trees. right now im only dealing with shrubs. when i get things figured out and do get some trees i hope to give a look but right now this thread is more geared toward the design aspect of the system. i hope just the info can help those who are interested in trying HP aero as its not for everyone ,more of an experment than anything right now. nice to have ya stop by though.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 28, 2009)

Tree farmer
I have a couple of spare adv's that i am not using. If you want to try one out and see if you like them and would rather use them id be glad to send you one or two. If you have a po box i would send it to that. I dont think you want to be giving out your address and i understand but just pm me and I'll help any way i can


----------



## Atomizer (Dec 29, 2009)

I think the hard part will be making the transition from the distribution pipe to the adv and then from adv to the threaded nozzle. I`m sure it could be done though.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 31, 2009)

Hey guys,
Just wanted to pass this little device I came accross. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3x-wxLEfLEQ&feature=related You all might already be aware of them but i was not. Thought it might help with some diy water cooling or any cooling for that matter.


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 31, 2009)

It is only about 25% as efficient as compression type refrigeration systems, although it does have some advantages. Just expensive to operate when any large amount of colling must be performed. Great for CPU cooling and other small applications.


----------



## travish413 (Dec 31, 2009)

fatman7574 said:


> It is only about 25% as efficient as compression type refrigeration systems, although it does have some advantages. Just expensive to operate when any large amount of colling must be performed. Great for CPU cooling and other small applications.


 I figured you would know more about them. So, you dont think you could use one to cool a liquid lumens light?


----------



## fatman7574 (Dec 31, 2009)

It would require a very large one as a chaep a window air condition is rated at an energy efficiency of about 0.94 to 1.0 while a Peltier is rated at around 0.24 to 0.27 A 1 is 100% efficient. As in using 1 btu of outside energy to transfer 1 btu of thermal energy. A heat pump in pulling heat uin rather than transporting out can have efficiency ratings above 2.5 I Alaska where a heat pump is usedfor collo ing to ground water efficincies of over 2 are easy as the ground water temperature is only 34 degeees F. An air conditioner Peltier is usually using air to remove the heat from either water or air so calculations are typically based on ambient temps of 20 degeees C for the cold receiving air. The efficiency for both an airconditioner and Peltier would all incraese as the recieving air temp decreased. The video shows the temperture probe actually placed upon the warm side but not the cool side of the peltier. Without the large finned aluminum heat sinks and the two fans the Peltiers efeectiveness would have been very dismal in comparison to the video example. The actual Peltier is just a thin pad of two different metals fused together. It is really just a DC diode. The amount of heat it can moe is based on the amount of voltage applied to one isde and how well you can wick the heta away from the other side, hence the aluminum heat sinks and double fans. Again if you lived in a cold climate and you neeed to conduct heat to ground water or cold outside area the efficiency would greatly increase but for large amounts of heat transfer air conditioning is still more economical to install and more efficient to operate.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 1, 2010)

Aero is cheap to cool due to the small amount of water delivered.
If you have 4 (8.5LPH) nozzles running on a 1 sec/3min cycle, it`ll take about 4 hours for the nutes to pass through 20ft of 1/2" bore hose. Bury the 20ft of hose in the ground or coil it up in a small cooler filled with water and thats the nute temps taken care of  You will need to insulate any exposed pipework after the cooler but thats no biggy.
I use the same idea with an aquarium heater to bring up the temp of cold mains water for use in the cloner.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 1, 2010)

Or just kill all pyth initaly with chlorine then maintain some residual chlorine in the water to control Pyth and other pathogens etc, insulate the water pipe and don't worry about the temp as the system is not dependant upon DO to deliver oxygen to the roots. Justas long as thw water s not so cold or so hot as to shock the roots all is well. Temp in the low 80's is according to commercial green house growers and horticulturalists preferable with mist type aero.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 1, 2010)

I don`t get a choice with the chlorine but i dont think its that high (Free Chlorine: 0.42mg/L, Total Chlorine: 0.650mg/L). 
Its drain to waste and everything is sterilized by the chlorine with every mist pulse.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 1, 2010)

As long as your treatment plants source water is from a deep well and not a surface water source that residual level will be enough to keep Pyth out of your system once it is initially killed off. However, if your water came from a surface source before treatment it is likely to still contain Pyth cells. Surface water sources have Pyth that require up to 2 ppm of residual chlorine exposure for over 20 minutes for eradification. Water treatment plants just maintain over 0.5 ppm for over 20 minute to kill e-coli bacteria. That is not enough to eradificate the harder to kill Pyth. With water from surface sources chlorine bleach should be added at the rate of at least 16 drops per gallon. After 30 minutes exposure time just aerate the water over night before use. Chlorine at 0.2 to 0.5 ppm is about the average as a residual level for treated water. However that will dissipate quickly after being in an open container (reservoir).


----------



## travish413 (Jan 1, 2010)

Thanks for yalls info on the peltiers. I tore my tent down last night and decided to just build a room... I am in the process right now. The tent just was not very stealth and it took up most of the room I had it in anyway so I just said screw it and why not just build a room. Thats what I have going on right now. That and waitn for my mothers to get mature so i can try out my new setup.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 1, 2010)

travish413 said:


> Thanks for yalls info on the peltiers. I tore my tent down last night and decided to just build a room... I am in the process right now. The tent just was not very stealth and it took up most of the room I had it in anyway so I just said screw it and why not just build a room. Thats what I have going on right now. That and waitn for my mothers to get mature so i can try out my new setup.


dont give up on the stealth. rooms can be made very stealthy. just be creative with something to go across the door. its always good to have stealth that will pass a walk thru. you never know about exigent circumstances. will never save you from a serious examination from the man (cause of thier sniffer friends)but a good stealth room will save you from just about anything else if done properly.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 1, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Or just kill all pyth initaly with chlorine then maintain some residual chlorine in the water to control Pyth and other pathogens etc, insulate the water pipe and don't worry about the temp as the system is not dependant upon DO to deliver oxygen to the roots. Justas long as thw water s not so cold or so hot as to shock the roots all is well. Temp in the low 80's is according to commercial green house growers and horticulturalists preferable with mist type aero.


ive been tempted at times to up the nute temp but didnt want to take the chance of any root problems as im still trying to figure everything else out. i would love to max out the other parameters and then up the solution temp to see what difference it would make. i have also read that true aero can benifit from higher root zone temp as it will increase the plants uptake. another thing i hope to test one day. so many things. so little time.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

im sure everyone here has seen the doubleD grow system... 

its the buckets, with a drip system on top, over hydron or whatevr its called

and then a dwc bubbler at the bottom... and high flow rates for the dwc, but it only comes up a few inches from the bottom of the bucket, and the top majority of the bucket is drip..

anyway...

ive been reading about your root chamber temp issues, and im trying to create a aero system myself, but it will probably only be a 30psi setup... and then upgrade to a 90psi later down the road.

anyway... here way my idea

take a tub or anything with a flat bottom that is pretty big, and put 4 plants in the lid, one in each corner.

have 2 or 4 sprayers that shoot from the top middle of the tub, (that 4 mister thing shown earlier looks like it would work great)

but here is my question...

what would happen if the bottom of the tub had say an inch or 2 of water, and a bubble stone, and a high flow occuring (gotta check out doubled's buckets to see what i mean, but basically the drain hose is large, and about an inch or 2 up from the bottom of the bucket, and then the feed hose for the dwc is at the very bottom, and water is constantly circulating at high speeds all around, in all the buckets, and then gravity draining back to one main big res.

so i would have 2 or more pumps... one high pressure pump for the misters, and one high volume pump for the dwc circulated in the bottom of the tubs.

basically im looking to keep the temps down on the chambers, as well as have the dwc incase anything bad happens with my sprayers...

but then have the vast majority of the roots up in the air, so they would get fuzy from the sprayers...

and as far as having 4 plants per bucket... i know they would starve themselves for light in the middle, but on the outside, i think they would grow fine...

so i would have a bushier plant than a single plant, and instead have at least 4 colas or more... and then a person could just lasso the main stems together LOOSELY, and as the plants grew, they would sway away from eachother (almost like training, but created by the plants desire to go towards the light and away from the other 3 plants)

this might not be the most ideal setup, but its way better than what im running now with the stinkbud posts


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

doubleD link http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/doubleds-mpg-bucket-shopping-list-14920/http://bcseeds.com/ticket_view.php?tlid=0S7U6G8t6J7y5C


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 1, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> im sure everyone here has seen the doubleD grow system...
> 
> its the buckets, with a drip system on top, over hydron or whatevr its called
> 
> ...


i always thought about doing something similar as to what you are describing. sprayers on top and fast recirculating DWC on the bottom. i thought this would be an alternative to lifting the roots off the floor with silk screen to keep them out of the runoff. i never did try it though but dont see any reason it wouldnt work as long as you keep the DWC solution moving. 
Although im still testing this system i do think that with the proper misting cycles dialed in the DWC wouldnt be neccesary. I also dont think the airstone down in the bottom is crucial if you have a good flow going.

yea if you do have a pump failure the DWC will keep the plant alive but im thinking if you still dont catch it within a reasonable amount of time all the roots above the DWC part will suffer some pretty bad damage and probably would die back anyway decreasing the yield and probably putting the plant in danger of dying anyway.

I think the combo system could really shine but think it still has its limitations if a failure does occur.

Im familiar with doublds work as im a member there also.

Nothing wrong with LP aero did it myself for a long time. I just think HP can pass LP aero performance wise. it is a little more difficult as the info is hard to come by so its trial and error but it wont take long to get it dialed in.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

any recomendations for tubs?

i could use rebbermades...

or i could use the sinks you guys link, but i think i want something with a flat bottom if im going to do the dwc... what do you think?


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

and could i use that 4 way sprayer thing sited at the beginig pages of this thread... can i use it with low pressure, or do they make one for low pressure?

if not, how many sprayers do you think i would need in a tub, 2, both in the middle firing away from eachother, or 4 all firing away form eachother?

thanks


----------



## travish413 (Jan 1, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> dont give up on the stealth. rooms can be made very stealthy. just be creative with something to go across the door. its always good to have stealth that will pass a walk thru. you never know about exigent circumstances. will never save you from a serious examination from the man (cause of thier sniffer friends)but a good stealth room will save you from just about anything else if done properly.


 Yeah, thats why i decided to build this closet. That tent was just too big for the room that it was in. I can also get more room with building this closet. I will have it totally stealth. Just look likes a walkin closet and i am building the floor about 2in off the main floor bc I have a floor ac/heat vent that I want to cover so I can vent fresh air from the floor that I have off the main floor in different parts of the room by putting fans in the floor that is built up. Just run the fans that are farther away at higher speeds to try and get an even temp through out. Building it up will keep the light from coming out from under the door also. If yall have any comments or input Id love to hear it bc i just got about halfway done today I am got a hold of a heavy indica and it slowed me down


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 1, 2010)

what kind of fans are you going to use in the floor?

ive been looking everywhere for cheap deals on cage fans just to move leaves around in the grow room...


----------



## travish413 (Jan 2, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> what kind of fans are you going to use in the floor?
> 
> ive been looking everywhere for cheap deals on cage fans just to move leaves around in the grow room...


 Well, I havent really decided yet... I thought i might could get by with just some cpu fans, since i was just going to be an couple inches off the ground. I also plan on having might light exhaust on a closed loop, so that will help. But I was going to use vortex inlines for that.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 2, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> and could i use that 4 way sprayer thing sited at the beginig pages of this thread... can i use it with low pressure, or do they make one for low pressure?
> 
> if not, how many sprayers do you think i would need in a tub, 2, both in the middle firing away from eachother, or 4 all firing away form eachother?
> 
> thanks


Hi Sherriberry
The droplet size is likely to suffer at lower pressures.
you can use 30psi using a purple pin adv which opens at 30psi and closes at 13psi. I`d go for at least 35psi though as the smallest pressure loss may prevent the adv from opening at all. 

One 4-way will probably fill a 1000L ibc on its own.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 2, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> ive been tempted at times to up the nute temp but didnt want to take the chance of any root problems as im still trying to figure everything else out. i would love to max out the other parameters and then up the solution temp to see what difference it would make. i have also read that true aero can benifit from higher root zone temp as it will increase the plants uptake. another thing i hope to test one day. so many things. so little time.


Hi TF
You could run a different nute temp for each chamber. All you need is 4 small coolers filled with water, a small aquarium heater/stat for each cooler set to the desired temp and some coiled pipe. 
Put one inline to each chamber.


----------



## travish413 (Jan 2, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> any recomendations for tubs?
> 
> i could use rebbermades...
> 
> or i could use the sinks you guys link, but i think i want something with a flat bottom if im going to do the dwc... what do you think?


 I went with atomizer and found an ibc tank for 15 dollars. They are a good choice for the netafim foggers. The one I have is 3'x4'x36". I have cut it directly in half to use two chambers 18" tall. If you are not familiar with an ibc, it is what farmers store water and sometimes chemicals... So, if u find a used one make sure that it was just used for water. If you are going to use rubbermaid totes I would use some very large ones bc the root mass will be extremely large as you can tell by tf's pics. The hp isnt for everybody. I jumped in head first and didnt know what i was in for being that i have done some simple dwc and nft, but I have had some great advice from these guys. Now hopefully i can follow thru and produce...


----------



## travish413 (Jan 2, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> and could i use that 4 way sprayer thing sited at the beginig pages of this thread... can i use it with low pressure, or do they make one for low pressure?
> 
> if not, how many sprayers do you think i would need in a tub, 2, both in the middle firing away from eachother, or 4 all firing away form eachother?
> 
> thanks


 Check this website out http://www.netafim.com/products it will have everything you need if you choose to go with netafim... You cant order from the site tho. You will have to find a page that distributes for them. I think I purchased mine at http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/Netafim-Fogger-Assembly/productinfo/IR-NFFG but make sure that you get the correct colored pin on the adv's. They also have some other foggers that might work better for what you want. Hope it works out for you


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 2, 2010)

i looked around the sites travish,

the blue pin is a 22psi on and 10 psi off.

i think thats what i would want to use, that way im sure it comes on, right?

or, does it LIMIT the pressure to 22psi as well? if it limits, then im in trouble and would need the higher psi ON and OFF.

The pump ive got is the one fatman was using, the iwiki or whatevr its called...

and i think he said its almost a 30psi pump.

anyway... if im using that pump, and keep in mind there are pressure drops over the length of hoses, 22 on 10 off, wouldnt that be the best?


----------



## travish413 (Jan 2, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> i looked around the sites travish,
> 
> the blue pin is a 22psi on and 10 psi off.
> 
> ...


 I would think that would be best. I am pretty sure they dont have a limit. I am not a pro at this yet, so you might want to wait on one of these other guys to chime in. Since you are using LP you might not want adv's... Check out the dgt misters on the greenhouse store link i posted and see what you think about those.


----------



## travish413 (Jan 2, 2010)

Well, got my room framed and ready to hang the door! Not much longer, hopefully... I figure I will be back up and running by next weekend.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 2, 2010)

@ Sherriberry
The blue pinned AD15 would be the best choice to fit with the pump you have. 
The valve opens at 22psi but if the pump will do 30psi thats fine, it doesn`t limit the pressure in any way. When you kill the pump, the pipe pressure drops and when it hits 10psi the valve closes. 
You may need to add a check valve after the pump to make sure the 10psi doesn`t bleed off via the pump.


----------



## travish413 (Jan 3, 2010)

Ok guys I am designing my room and trying to maxmize my space... That being said I was curious to how big of a nute res that I would need? With my pressurized tank being 20g but only holding about 7g then I should be able to get by on a 20g res, shouldnt I? I am using the netafim foggers with adv's. I am going to put two of the 4 head foggers in one ibc tank but just use one until i might need the other due to the root mass getting in the way. I have some wishfull thinking Anyway, was just wondering on adequate res size?


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 3, 2010)

travish413 said:


> Ok guys I am designing my room and trying to maxmize my space... That being said I was curious to how big of a nute res that I would need? With my pressurized tank being 20g but only holding about 7g then I should be able to get by on a 20g res, shouldnt I? I am using the netafim foggers with adv's. I am going to put two of the 4 head foggers in one ibc tank but just use one until i might need the other due to the root mass getting in the way. I have some wishfull thinking Anyway, was just wondering on adequate res size?


i wish i would have ran DTW right from the start. its so much easier and with the low volume of water and nutes used its cost effective also. i only throw away 2 gallons or so a day. not much waste. 

with 7 gallon drawdown on your tank you shouldnt need more than 20 gallon res. if you get the misting dialed in you wont go thru much each day so that might last you a few days. i like to mix a couple gallons each day to adjust to what i see going on with the girls. i could mix 20 gallon as thats what the res is but like to be able to try different PH and EC levels so thats why i only mix a few gallons aday. once i get it figured out then yea ill mix the 20 gallons and forget it but a guy has to learn the system and the phenos requirments first.


----------



## travish413 (Jan 3, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> i wish i would have ran DTW right from the start. its so much easier and with the low volume of water and nutes used its cost effective also. i only throw away 2 gallons or so a day. not much waste.
> 
> with 7 gallon drawdown on your tank you shouldnt need more than 20 gallon res. if you get the misting dialed in you wont go thru much each day so that might last you a few days. i like to mix a couple gallons each day to adjust to what i see going on with the girls. i could mix 20 gallon as thats what the res is but like to be able to try different PH and EC levels so thats why i only mix a few gallons aday. once i get it figured out then yea ill mix the 20 gallons and forget it but a guy has to learn the system and the phenos requirments first.


 You said you throw away a couple of gallons a day... So, you dont recirculate the waste water? Is that not a good idea with these hp systems? Sorry guys but this is a whole new ballgame to me...


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 3, 2010)

It is not a good idea to reuse the nutrient water in any aero or conventional hydroponic system. It is simply cheaper to reuse with the less efficiently designed systems. With fresh pathogen free nutrient water you always know exactly what you are feeding your plants and are assured it is free of disease carrying cells, spores, etc etc. You can also drain to a holding tank so you can exactly measure (short of evaporation) what the pants are uptaking by calcualtiong what you are spraying and subtracting what drains away. It allows you to more easily follow your plants nutrient needs so as to formulate just what works best for the individual strains. It allows you to more readily determine whether or not to raise or lower your room humidity. 

Some would simply just say it allows more geek/technical type research of your system and plants.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 3, 2010)

A 30 gal tank would be about 7 gal, i make the drawdown on a 20gal something like 4.77 gal (18L) with 90psi-65psi.

Once-through is the same as dtw except theres no waste, feed from one res that`ll last 24 hours and collect the runoff in another container. The next day, top it up with ro, adjust the ec/ph and use that as the feed res for the next 24 hours.
Its hard work, it takes maybe about 10mins a day


----------



## travish413 (Jan 3, 2010)

Cool! Sounds a lot easier than trying to plumb back around to my nute res. I promise i am going to get this down to an art sooner or later Yall are life savers


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 3, 2010)

If you collect it in a seperate container you have the choice of re-using or binning it. 
You have a fairly large accumulator so it might take upto 48 hours to reach the pumps cut-in pressure depending on the cycle time, you`re futureproofed with plenty of capacity for expansion


----------



## travish413 (Jan 3, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> If you collect it in a seperate container you have the choice of re-using or binning it.
> You have a fairly large accumulator so it might take upto 48 hours to reach the pumps cut-in pressure depending on the cycle time, you`re futureproofed with plenty of capacity for expansion


 I always seem to get more than i need. I guess my eyes are bigger than my lungs. Well, atleast i can expand when i choose too and have the money to. This room and all these new toys have hit my pocket pretty hard...


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 7, 2010)

well as i was going into the 7 week i noticed the girls just stopped pretty much feeding. i saw the runoff ppm drastically stop. i thought this was probably normal since they were suppose to finish in 8 weeks. I just left it go for a few days but was somewhat puzzeled. After a few days i thought let me check the PH of the runoff. ive always just been checking the PPM of the runoff never thought to check the PH cause its DTW. well i was surprised to see it was about .6 higher than what was going in. so i decieded to give them just PH adjusted RO water then give them some fresh nutes. Well i started the RO water thinking it would only take 5 gallons (1 day regular cycles)or so to flush to 0ppm runoff. well i found out i was wrong. it took nearly 48hrs of straight RO to get the ppms to 0 on the runoff.

it seems to me now that there is some buildup that occures in the system even at low EC levels cause of the root volume and the small amount of flow through the system to flush it on a daily basis. 

After reintroducing fresh nutes they again started feeding. of coarse this whole process burned up nearly 5 days. but ive learned a good lesson. a flush every so often would be wise at least once the root mass filles the chamber.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 7, 2010)

Hi TF
Good job on getting to the bottom of the nute stall problem. A daily flush during the night cycle might be the way to go? 
It wouldn`t take much to add a 2nd accumulator running ph`d ro on a motorized valve and timer. A 5gal tank could run your 16 nozzles for 16 hours on 2sec/30min night timings without the pump. 
You would gain a nice bonus of the ro cleaning all the lines and nozzles every night too


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 7, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> well as i was going into the 7 week i noticed the girls just stopped pretty much feeding. i saw the runoff ppm drastically stop. i thought this was probably normal since they were suppose to finish in 8 weeks. I just left it go for a few days but was somewhat puzzeled. After a few days i thought let me check the PH of the runoff. ive always just been checking the PPM of the runoff never thought to check the PH cause its DTW. well i was surprised to see it was about .6 higher than what was going in. so i decieded to give them just PH adjusted RO water then give them some fresh nutes. Well i started the RO water thinking it would only take 5 gallons (1 day regular cycles)or so to flush to 0ppm runoff. well i found out i was wrong. it took nearly 48hrs of straight RO to get the ppms to 0 on the runoff.
> 
> it seems to me now that there is some buildup that occures in the system even at low EC levels cause of the root volume and the small amount of flow through the system to flush it on a daily basis.
> 
> After reintroducing fresh nutes they again started feeding. of coarse this whole process burned up nearly 5 days. but ive learned a good lesson. a flush every so often would be wise at least once the root mass filled the chamber.


But again any time lost to flushing processes wastes growing time reagardless if it is one day a week or 5 days every five weeks etc.

I think there is an alternative but I do not think AN or GH is going to provide it as to few people use chamberized high pressure aero or chamberized atomized aero as there is not enough money in doing testing and in manfacturing for the few using such systems. The money is to produce fertilizer for the majority. The nutrients needs of the majority are not the same needs as those of the chamberized high pressure aero or chamberized atomized aero growers.

IMHO Add an ammonium based fertilizer such as ammomium nitrate or preferably ammonium phosphate as this will cause the roots to release H+ ions as the ammonium is a cation ion ie a plus charge.

I discussed earlier this was a problem with recirculated fertilizers (needs of the masses) as the excessive H+ released lowered the pH requiring that you raise the pH back up daily. Apparaently with the aeros systems greater uptake efficiency the plants are definitely going to need the ammonium ion take up to counter excessive OH negative ions it is now releasing. (a problem not experienced by the masses). The addition of the ammonium ions should cause the plant to utilize the nutrients such a way as to then discharge a pH nearer to that of the nutrients initial pH. The other choice is to lower the pH by adding phosphoric acid to thake the pH down to the lowest acceptable pH. 

Besides increasing the phosphorus availablity it will also add extra H+ ions to counter what ever is causing the roots to now be dumping hydroxide ions. Lucas does have a lot of magnesium and calcium which would also tend to cause a higher pH if the plant is not needing them as buffers. Oh the fun of new things. 

IMHO I really think it is going to eventually come down to using a hydroponic nutrient formulated specifically for high pressure aero and atomized systems or the doctoring of existing formulas. The formulas sold are simply made for less efficient systems and are therfore inadequate. Ie higher ammonium and phosphorus levels that the poor uptake hydro sytems can not tolerate without greater operator involvement (ie daily pH adjustments for low pH during budding) appears to be nearly essential to the more efficient systems so as the prevent just the opposite pH problem. Those systems experience low pH due to larger amounts of ammonium ions and phosphorus and more efficient aero systems experience high pH without the increased amonium and phosphorus.

I imagine a lot of things will be teasted and learned over the next year with 4 or 5 chamberized high pressure and chamberized atomized systems be tested and used by people from this forum. It usually takes both those who tinker and test and those that simply run a system at set unalterred parmeters combined before things really make the most sense.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 7, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF
> Good job on getting to the bottom of the nute stall problem. A daily flush during the night cycle might be the way to go?
> It wouldn`t take much to add a 2nd accumulator running ph`d ro on a motorized valve and timer. A 5gal tank could run your 16 nozzles for 16 hours on 2sec/30min night timings without the pump.
> You would gain a nice bonus of the ro cleaning all the lines and nozzles every night too


you know i was thinking on the same lines but it would be much easier for me to just have a seperate res to feed the system with and then alls it would take is to have a valve switch res tanks at what ever times one chose. it all goes to the dtw anyway.

Of coarse what fatman says is probably what would be best but i dont have a though enough grasp of that subject but am working on it.

I know with my LP aero systems i always had problems with the PH droping towards the end not rising.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 8, 2010)

Switching the res over to ro is easier. It might take a while for the ro to replace the nutes in the tank and lines. Using the revised nozzle flowrates, your pump may be running once every 4 hours during lights on and once every 13 hours during lights out. 
I think an ammonium source would encourage nitrifying bacteria (nitrosoma and eventually nitrobacter) to take up residence in the rootzone, not a bad thing with dtw. They cause localised ph drop due to the oxidising process. The conditions in the chamber are perfect for them, plenty of surface area (roots), a food supply and unlimted oxygen.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 8, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Switching the res over to ro is easier. It might take a while for the ro to replace the nutes in the tank and lines. Using the revised nozzle flowrates, your pump may be running once every 4 hours during lights on and once every 13 hours during lights out.
> I think an ammonium source would encourage nitrifying bacteria (nitrosoma and eventually nitrobacter) to take up residence in the rootzone, not a bad thing with dtw. They cause localised ph drop due to the oxidising process. The conditions in the chamber are perfect for them, plenty of surface area (roots), a food supply and unlimted oxygen.


i already have a drainline to bypass the selonoid installed so when switching to the ro res i could simply drain whatever is in the accumulater-line and then switch the tank and turn the pump back on (i have an on-off switch wired in to the pump already) thus filling the system with ro water. take less than a minute to drain the system. i have it so the drain line goes back to the nute res now so it wouldnt be wasted. i use that return line and valve to flush the air out of the system and to set the pressure switches without having to fire the solenoid and drench the roots. so the sytem could be changed over to the RO res and be ready instantly to fire RO water in under 2 minutes. Not sure i would want to do it every lights out but every so often i think is going to be something im going to encorporate.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

i think it was tree farmer who had this...

but who has the high psi tank, and the and the small pump that pressurizes the tank constantly?

im using the 1gph 80 micron misters from drip store that fatman turned me on to...
unless there are better ones?

im trying to figure out the best psi i should use for an ideal condition. Im going to be using the huge rubbermade tubs that are about 3-4 ft long, and 2 ft wide, and over 2 ft tall.

Im going to have 8 or less plants per tub... prbably 4 plants, but 8 maybe.

im thinking about using 2 sprayers per tub, and having them come in from the lid, and shoot striaght down.

if i had lets say on the high side... 15 of these tubs, so 30 sprayers if i use 2 per tub...

what size tank would i need?

and which pump would i want to use?

where do i get a pressure switch so that the pump shuts off?

or should i get a pressurized solenoid on the other side of the tank, so that the pump runs continuous, and whenever the tank gets too high of pressure, it relieves itself. 

thanks for the help


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 8, 2010)

I think most of us have an accumulator,solenoid,pressure switch, pump and cycle timer. The wealthier guys have compressor, solenoid, cycle timer and air-atomising nozzles  
You can`t trust the gph spec on the nozzles, i`d play it safe and assume its double for accumulator sizing calculations.

Rough estimate: 30 x 1gph nozzles (assume 8lph each to be safe)
Cycle time of 2sec/ 5 mins (shortest cycle likely to be used)
Tank Pressure: 90psi max 70psi min
With a 5gal accumulator the pump will run at most once every 2.25hrs. The pump output depends on how fast you want to put 3.6L (~1gal) back into the tank. A low flow pump might take 10-15 minutes and something more heavy duty perhaps only a minute or so.


----------



## laughingduck (Jan 8, 2010)

TREEFARMER-

The surge problem with your switch can be overcome with an orfice placed in line with the switch, or even a valve almost closed would fix it to. This will slow the reaction time of the switch.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 8, 2010)

laughingduck said:


> TREEFARMER-
> 
> The surge problem with your switch can be overcome with an orfice placed in line with the switch, or even a valve almost closed would fix it to. This will slow the reaction time of the switch.


interesting tip. ill have to try it. i was actually going to increase the line going to the pressure switch to 1/2 instead of the 1/4 inch line that now feeds it to remedy the problem or was going to buy an electronic pressure switch that can be programmed to ignore a certain drop momentarily.
ill stick a 1/4 valve on the line feeding it and see what happens. whats crazy is it only will momentarly trip when the solenoid fires the first time on the first cycle after the pump fills the accumulator tank. After that it doesnt do it again until the next fill up cycle.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 8, 2010)

Hi TF
Strange its happening only once after the accumulator fills.
Where is the pressure switch located in the layout? Is it pump,switch,tank,solenoid or perhaps pump,tank,switch, solenoid? 
I have the switch located directly after the pump and before the tank if thats anything to go by


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 8, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> I think most of us have an accumulator,solenoid,pressure switch, pump and cycle timer. The wealthier guys have compressor, solenoid, cycle timer and air-atomising nozzles
> You can`t trust the gph spec on the nozzles, i`d play it safe and assume its double for accumulator sizing calculations.
> 
> Rough estimate: 30 x 1gph nozzles (assume 8lph each to be safe)
> ...



where is the best deal on a slow, no frils, high psi pump to get it back up to 90 or wherever i need to get to?


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 8, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Hi TF
> Strange its happening only once after the accumulator fills.
> Where is the pressure switch located in the layout? Is it pump,switch,tank,solenoid or perhaps pump,tank,switch, solenoid?
> I have the switch located directly after the pump and before the tank if thats anything to go by


remember i have 2 pressure switches. the one that does it is after the accumulator tank. the one that comes right after the pump and before the accumulator tank doesnt do it now but it did in the past. it seems if i go out of the current range much 80-97 it will start to do it to. 

when i bought ths solenoid i was talking to the guy because i was afraid the selonoid would have to big of an orrifce and cause the problem to be worse and when i told him he suggested putting a valve on the output of the selonoid to slow the surge but i never did because the valve never made the problem any worse.

Now this guy says try a valve on the actual ps line. i think that might work cause it would slow the sudden surge of the flow back from the pressure switch line when the valve opens.

Yea it is strange that it only happens at max pressure but i think its worth a try.

I have the pressure relief valve laying here along with the check valve im going to use in the system but am waiting till things are finished. then the second pressure switch wont be needed as a safety feature anymore. although i want to hook it up to my backup pump but havent got that all put together yet. my new nozzels came and i started working on my silk screen bottoms im going to put in. not putting the nozzels in till next time. im also replacing all the tubing. i figured fuck trying to flush it all i can replace it quick with the JG fittings fast for around 25 bucks. then ill have a new system. have you ever wondered if shit cakes inside the accumulator tanks though. wouldnt mind making sure thats clean.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 8, 2010)

I think you`d have to be careful using a valve on the pressure switch line, if you have to close it down a lot it`ll be more susceptable to clogging issues due to the small orifice. It`ll probably slow the response time of the pressure drop from the switch to the main line too, especially with only low pressure to drive it through the small opening in the valve. 
The worst case is it creates the same switch problem but at the low pressure end of the tank cycle 

Checking for caking in the tank isnt too easy unless you have the type you can take it apart to replace the bladder. I guess its a plus point for regular flushing.. using a descaler probably wouldn`t do the bladder much good in the long run.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 8, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> where is the best deal on a slow, no frils, high psi pump to get it back up to 90 or wherever i need to get to?


There are plenty of pumps at reasonable money that will do the job. Either one of TF`s pumps would fit the bill nicely. 
A few other alternatives include an aquatec cdp-8800 which does about 0.8 LPM @ 80psi or a cdp-6800 that has about half the flowrate but runs almost silently if stealth is a factor.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 8, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> where is the best deal on a slow, no frils, high psi pump to get it back up to 90 or wherever i need to get to?


look thru these sites. im not saying these pumps but the sites have all kinds of pumps look for one that has the pressure you want.



http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8000-812-639.html

http://www.systemacc.com/catalog/product_info.php/cPath/21_302/products_id/1559

http://www.steam-brite.com/store/shurflo-150psi-volt-viton-seals-p-5112.html

http://www.tbaquatics.com/shop/aquatec-8800-booster-pump-400.html?zenid=c457116dd930c957b852b73d00475f3d


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 9, 2010)

Hi PetFlora 
welcome to the forum, heres my 2c
1. 20-30secs= lp aero results, 2sec or less= hp aero results
2. one plant, its essential kit


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 9, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> Hey Tree Farmer. Nice informative journal you've got here. Just as I did here, you would need to join IC to post pics.
> 
> Couple of questions:
> 
> ...


 those are some tough questions to answer as a person would have to run a side by side or at least have done the same strain in both systems to really give an exact answer. i only have 4 girls never ran them in LP. i dont think the numbers are relevent as the system can function with the right design from 1 to whatever number. i will say i personally have never had these fine root hairs from Lower pressure systems 40-60psi and i have run with and without accumulators and some pretty short cycle intervals at those pressures. i think to develop the fine root hairs you have to have a combination of instant on-off, high pressures and correct droplet size and only accumulator and air assisted setups can accomplish that.

Now just from seeing these roots and there ability to uptake very effieciently water and nutes one can just assume that it must increase plant growth. id pm you some info but cant cause you dont have the post count here yet.


----------



## repvip (Jan 9, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> I know with my LP aero systems i always had problems with the PH droping towards the end not rising.


I recently switched to RO water and have noticed pH dropping for my plants during the later stages of flowering. Before, with tap water, I never had to make pH adjustments. It seems I have to at least every other day now, but the plants love it.

The storage tank that comes with RO systems... is it possible to use that as an accumulator? 

The max. psi is 100, but I'm not sure what the capacity is... I don't think it's much, maybe a gallon?

Thanks. Tree farmer, atomizer--you guys are grrrreat!


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 9, 2010)

Hi Repvic
RO accumulators generally have a lower maximum working pressure rating (100psi) and smaller capacity than the more expensive tanks (125-150psi). If they are certified they`ll be fine i`d set the pump cut-out point no higher than 90psi.

Something like this one ($45) with 90psi-60psi cut-in/cut-out would give you around 1.3gal of usable capacity
http://www.waterfilters.net/Reverse-Osmosis-System-Bladder-Tank_p_0-486.html


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 9, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Repvic
> RO accumulators generally have a lower maximum working pressure rating (100psi) and smaller capacity than the more expensive tanks (125-150psi). If they are certified they`ll be fine i`d set the pump cut-out point no higher than 90psi.
> 
> Something like this one ($45) with 90psi-60psi cut-in/cut-out would give you around 1.3gal of usable capacity
> http://www.waterfilters.net/Reverse-Osmosis-System-Bladder-Tank_p_0-486.html


make sure you get the info from the manufactures website or live person from the manufactures not a retail salesperson. theyll tell you what you want to here. look for the operating pressure like he said not the max pressure. they can blow up. i read a story recently about a plumber who got blown up in New York cause they didnt have a pressure relief valve on the system. they now have a law there where you have to have a pressure relief valve on all accumulator tank systems. code requiered. plumbers use to scoff at pressure relief valves being installed. i guess thier not anymore.


----------



## repvip (Jan 9, 2010)

Thanks and thanks! 

That water tank is much more reasonably priced that what I was looking at Do you ever need to adjust the air pressue inside the tank?


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 9, 2010)

repvip said:


> Thanks and thanks!
> 
> That water tank is much more reasonably priced that what I was looking at Do you ever need to adjust the air pressue inside the tank?


The tanks bladder holds its own air charge so that its air never mixes with the water holding portion of the tank. They are often called captive air tanks for that reason. They usually have a small cap on the top of the tank that covers an air valve. The air contained within the bag can be adjusted for different pressure usages. As an example if your pump activates at 50 psi preinflation levels of just under 50 psi of air (45 psi) would mean more water would be available per pump cycle that if the factory pressure was only 30 psi.

Prior to the rubber bag type tanks the tank was just charged with air and eventually alot of the air was lost to the water as DO therefore air need to be added at times. If the new type tanks lose their air then the tank (or the bag if possible) must be replaced. 

The old style tank can still be bought and most high pressure applications and commercial applications do still use the older larger tanks. They however are much larger as they are less efficient due to the water air miixing causing air loss over time. They are however nearly always made of much heavier steel and usually carry higher pressure ratings. They are typically glass lined to insure a longer life.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 9, 2010)

It pays to check the precharge from time to time, just set it to 2psi below the pumps cut-in pressure. With it set too low you`ll lose some capacity and the pump will run more often. If the pump cuts-in at 60psi, a precharge of 55psi will leave 1.14L in the tank, a precharge of 58psi will leave 0.45L in the tank. 
If you need more capacity you can connect several smaller tanks in parallel.


----------



## travish413 (Jan 9, 2010)

repvip said:


> I recently switched to RO water and have noticed pH dropping for my plants during the later stages of flowering. Before, with tap water, I never had to make pH adjustments. It seems I have to at least every other day now, but the plants love it.
> 
> The storage tank that comes with RO systems... is it possible to use that as an accumulator?
> 
> ...


 These guys know their stuff If running a hp system you need a little more chemistry knowledge than if you were running a more simple hydro system. Not saying you dont just a little fyi and also if you decide on a large metal tank that says 20 gallons it will probably only hold about 7 gallons. Just keep that in mind when buying one.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 9, 2010)

Plants in early growth and in budding are considered low light plants as they leaf mass is low in the early veg state and the leaves are thick and shading each other during budding due to the thickening dud formation. In low light conditions the roots take up more of their nitrogen as ammoniun nitrogen if it is available. However when it takes up ammonium nitrogen its roots release H+ as it acculmalates in excess. With most tap water there is a higher concentration of carbonates in your nutrients beacuse both the tap water and the nutrient formula provides carbonates or calcium, phosphorus and or magnesium that forms carbonates. The carbonates neutrailize the acids released by the roots. With RO water you have lower amounts of carbonates to absorb the acids as they are released.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 10, 2010)

travish413 said:


> if you decide on a large metal tank that says 20 gallons it will probably only hold about 7 gallons. Just keep that in mind when buying one.


A larger tank allows you to use higher average pressure and maintain useful capacity. HP doesn`t use that much water so don`t go too mad on the tank 

If you need 2.8gal capacity you could use either, a 20 gal @90-75psi, 10gal @90-60psi or 5gal @90-30psi.

The 5 gal wouldn`t fit the bill.. 30psi is way too low. It can give you 1.4gal @90-60psi which may be enough or alternatively you could use two 5 gal tanks.


----------



## repvip (Jan 10, 2010)

travish413 said:


> These guys know their stuff If running a hp system you need a little more chemistry knowledge than if you were running a more simple hydro system. Not saying you dont just a little fyi and also if you decide on a large metal tank that says 20 gallons it will probably only hold about 7 gallons. Just keep that in mind when buying one.


Thanks. I have a strong chemistry background.. so not worried about that. It's more of the mechanical aspects that I have questions with.. like these tank tips!  

The thread is quite useful. After reading a few times, I feel quite confident I could create something similar. And to be honest--I probably will. But I'm not in any rush... I have most of the parts, but still need enough that it has to wait anyway


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 10, 2010)

That brings the total number of chemists on the thread up to two then  
It looks like the main components for HP aero could be bought for around $200 or less, excluding shipping.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 10, 2010)

you know im thinking about just eliminating the return lines back to the sunken res for the runoff. reason being is it takes to long with the little flow that goes thru the system to gauge whats actually happening in the pods using the runoff numbers as a guide. what you put in the res doesnt show up in the runoff for 48 hrs. learned this thru the flush ordeal. when i started adding fresh nutes didnt see the real results in the runoff sump for 48 hrs. there is only 10 ft of hose on the pods to the sump.

i think im going to just disconnect the hoses and collect the runoff with some doggy dishes that fit right under the drain and then just dump them whenever they need it. shouldnt be often cause each one holds more than a gallon. i think this way i could get a quicker idea of whats actually going on in the pods at any given moment. just stick the meters into the dish. and im sure i could find some large trays to stick under there if i felt it had to be emptyed to often.

i havent tryed it yet and maybe it isnt the 10ft of hose thats slowing it down but the roots on the chamber floors.but if you look at the chamber floors thru the hatch (where you can see little patches of the chamber floor) you dont see any setting or pooling water. although once the silk screen bottoms are installed nothing should be held back on the chamber floor by the roots(if thats whats doing it).

ive been runing the input ph lower now and the runoff ph is coming out still higher than going in but now in the acceptable range thus preventing any lockout issues from developing in the pods do to a high ph in there.

anyone ever seen or used the bioballs they use in the fish industry. i was thinking of trying a layer of these on the chamber floor to let the roots spread out on.
http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3083/Bio-Spheres/bio%20balls/0

do you think they would work. im sure youd probably have to toss them after each use but they might work to keep those bottom roots from mating in anyway


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 10, 2010)

this is off topic, but youll understand why im saying it...

i ordered my seeds from bcseeds.com a while back, and im sexxing my plants now.

a lot of people give them a lot of flack because they exagerate yeilds and thc levels... but if you can look past that, i will tell you their normal strains, like ww, ak47, big bud... theirs seem to produce more than other seed banks, so i think they know their stuff when it comes to breeding id say...

but heres what astounds me...

out of about 40 seeds, well over 30 germinated.

of that 30ish number... i had one male.

I repeat, 1 male.

they dont even claim to femenize their product, as it makes it weaker to hermies. THey just give advice on how to make seeds come up as female.

i followed the advice.

maybe im the luckiest guy in the world, but if you guys order seeds in the future, i would strongly suggest trying their stuff... they give tons of freebees too.

reason i bring this up is we spend all this money on these systems, but good dna is worth the money too.

alright, back to HP aero 

i just bought this 50 psi 330gph, 1/2 hp pump, and im going to just hook that up to the 1gph sprayers, and do a modular daisy chain system with the biggest rubbermaid tubs, and have 4-8 plants in net pots up on the lid.

what will 50 psi get me with these sprayers? :

http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=39_67&products_id=985

what kind of micron size will i be producing, and how many of these sprayers would i need per tub?

Im thinking 2 sprayers, shooting straight down from the lid.

as far as my setup goes... it is going to be very similar to this link im about to provide...

except instead of the hydron rocks and 2nd bucket within a bucket... im going to have the aero up top, and the inch or 2 of high flow dwc in the bottom.

The drains, hoses, gutter, resevoir, everything is going to be similar... except im going to be using longer and taller tubs (the 4x2x2 rubermaids)

and im going to have multiple plants per tub. But im still going to have multiple tubs as well.

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/doubleds-med-patient-bucket-diy-mpb-buckets-7883/


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> this is off topic, but youll understand why im saying it...
> 
> i ordered my seeds from bcseeds.com a while back, and im sexxing my plants now.
> 
> ...


 
youll get probably 70 micron if you can keep the pump at 50 psi always. of coarse if you use a cycle timer youll not be getting 50 psi always cause the pump will take a bit to get to 50psi and then when shut off will take a bit to go to zero psi. And if you run the sprayer constantly youll be running a nft _RDWC system. Nothing wrong with that just different from a traditional HP aero setup. 

the system the way you have it described will work well provided you keep the RDWC part moving and have adequate spray up top. that said you wont get the HP aero effect up top simply because the pressure is to low and you dont have anyway to provide instant on-off pulses of micro droplets

ive run similar setups only never had the RDWC in the bottom and they will perform well but dont expect to see white fluffy roots. i could be wrong on this ,but at least i never saw them with the lower pressures and no instant on-off pules.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> maybe im the luckiest guy in the world


Any chance you could pm me this weeks lottery numbers? 



> what will 50 psi get me with these sprayers?


Spec says, 60-80 microns thats probably geared to 80psi.
The pump ramps from 0-50psi so expect larger droplets until it gets up to pressure and larger droplets as it ramps down again.



> How many of these sprayers would i need per tub?


Spec says, Coverage of 2' to 3' with 6-7' above the ground (no spray angles given) so expect something around 8" at 2ft above the ground in clear space.

You would need to test them to be sure but my guess is you`ll need more than 2 to get complete coverage.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 10, 2010)

hmmm, i was under the impression that the sprayers kind of flooded the chamber, with mist. 

------------------
x-------x-------x
---o--------o---
x-------x-------x
------------------

thats my lid, x is plant site, o is sprayer site.

or it could be

x---x---x---x
--o-------o--
x---x---x---x

or it could be

x-----------x
--o-------o--
x-----------x

i figured with any of these setups, the sprayers willbe in the best spot for all of them

the other thing i could do is get a T and have 2 sprayers at each site shooting away from eachother... so instead of jsut 2 sprayers i would have 4.

i will be using a solenoid valve, and letting the pump run constant.

the solenoid will open to let the water just return tot he res, and when it closes, water has to go the other way through a T, and hit the sprayers instead.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> hmmm, i was under the impression that the sprayers kind of flooded the chamber, with mist.
> 
> ------------------
> x-------x-------x
> ...


i dont know if this will help you but ive used those exact sprayers before with 40-60 psi and i used 4 of them in a 20 gallon container surrounding 1 10 inch netpot. it worked great at filming the roots with a spray but doesnt engulf the whole container instantly with mist.

the arrangments you show will work as the plants will just grow roots out the side of the netpots where the misters are. very few will grow out the sides between the netpot and the tote wall as there wont be any spray hitting those sides.

those sprayers are 360 degrees. at least when i used them they were. if i had to choose id say the first illustration would work the best. even firing the flow back to the res some of the time i dont think you will get the fine root hairs but you might get pretty close if you can fire the selonoid with seconds-bursts.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 10, 2010)

this first go around...

i know im not going to get fine hairs...

but the sysetm can be made hp with an accumulator and a different pump added at a later date.

i would like to figure out if i should have a T in under the lid that shoots 2 sprayers, one in each direction, or if i should get that 4 sprayer cross one of you guys linked a while back, and drop it down in the tank in each spot, and have 8 sprayers per tub?


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> this first go around...
> 
> i know im not going to get fine hairs...
> 
> ...


The 4 sprayer cross piece works better with the medium pressure pump as there is on that fits the Iwalki pressure range perfectly. The one that is set for 22 psi. You would just set the timer for a shorter spray time. ie 0.5 to 1 second of spray.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 10, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> well as i was going into the 7 week i noticed the girls just stopped pretty much feeding. i saw the runoff ppm drastically stop. i thought this was probably normal since they were suppose to finish in 8 weeks. I just left it go for a few days but was somewhat puzzeled. After a few days i thought let me check the PH of the runoff. ive always just been checking the PPM of the runoff never thought to check the PH cause its DTW. well i was surprised to see it was about .6 higher than what was going in. so i decieded to give them just PH adjusted RO water then give them some fresh nutes. Well i started the RO water thinking it would only take 5 gallons (1 day regular cycles)or so to flush to 0ppm runoff. well i found out i was wrong. it took nearly 48hrs of straight RO to get the ppms to 0 on the runoff.
> 
> it seems to me now that there is some buildup that occures in the system even at low EC levels cause of the root volume and the small amount of flow through the system to flush it on a daily basis.
> 
> After reintroducing fresh nutes they again started feeding. of coarse this whole process burned up nearly 5 days. but ive learned a good lesson. a flush every so often would be wise at least once the root mass filles the chamber.


Are these photos showing the purple colors you were getting earlier when you tried running a lower EC. This is the resulting coloration caused by a phosphorus deficiency. These colors in the dying leaves are preceded by a dull green coloration in the leaves.

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/279550-heres-cool-temps-2-week.html

For some reason some growers consider that as the proper results/response from flushing. Go figure.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 10, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Are these photos showing the purple colors you were getting earlier when you tried running a lower EC. This is the resulting coloration caused by a phosphorus deficiency. These colors in the dying leaves are preceded by a dull green coloration in the leaves.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/279550-heres-cool-temps-2-week.html
> 
> For some reason some growers consider that as the proper results/response from flushing. Go figure.


no they dont look like that. im still at a low EC level compared to any other hydro system im familiar with. im finishing at 650ppm .5 conversion. i actually think the only thing wrong was i was a little to light on the feeding going into the first couple weeks of high demand requiered from flowering.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 10, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The 4 sprayer cross piece works better with the medium pressure pump as there is on that fits the Iwalki pressure range perfectly. The one that is set for 22 psi. You would just set the timer for a shorter spray time. ie 0.5 to 1 second of spray.


The 4-way grey nozzles are rated for 4 - 5 bar so the droplet size will suffer, its no biggy as most nozzles will to some extent at that pressure. The adv will help to give a better start/stop response. 
The grey nozzles deliver a fair amount of water, i`d recommend using purple nozzles if you can find some. 
Its worth noting the actual misting pulse will be at least 0.5 seconds longer than the timer setting, a timer that can go down to almost zero is very useful.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 10, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> no they dont look like that. im still at a low EC level compared to any other hydro system im familiar with. im finishing at 650ppm .5 conversion. i actually think the only thing wrong was i was a little to light on the feeding going into the first couple weeks of high demand requiered from flowering.


 
I wasn't implying that the degree of damage would have been so great so as to have brough the degree of damage as shown in the photos. That person actually went two full weaks with no nutrients during the last tow eeks of budding. 

You had indicated an earlier dull green followed by some purple coloration. That is a typical effect of a phosphorus deficiency that is followed by the purple then the yellow and brown. If caught early usually only the dull green and some purple results. The photos are obvious "gross/extreme" examples of a phosphorus deficiency that has gone full stage to the point of causing death in the large leaves as shown by the final brown coloration.


----------



## travish413 (Jan 11, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Plants in early growth and in budding are considered low light plants as they leaf mass is low in the early veg state and the leaves are thick and shading each other during budding due to the thickening dud formation. In low light conditions the roots take up more of their nitrogen as ammoniun nitrogen if it is available. However when it takes up ammonium nitrogen its roots release H+ as it acculmalates in excess. With most tap water there is a higher concentration of carbonates in your nutrients beacuse both the tap water and the nutrient formula provides carbonates or calcium, phosphorus and or magnesium that forms carbonates. The carbonates neutrailize the acids released by the roots. With RO water you have lower amounts of carbonates to absorb the acids as they are released.


 If someone had their system already hooked to an RO tank feeding their res could you just add a little baking soda in the water to neutralize the acid?


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 11, 2010)

travish413 said:


> If someone had their system already hooked to an RO tank feeding their res could you just add a little baking soda in the water to neutralize the acid?


 
It is better to use a mix of carbonates. ie if adding baking soda it is better to add a combination of baking sodas and sodium carbonate. It is better to add a combination of both of those plus some magnesium carbonate. In nature water would also contain cacium carbonate and carbonates with phospohorus, iron and sulfur attached. Nature seldom puts all its eggs in one basket. Most commonly though just adding potasium hydroxide is all that would be done to raise the PH then a carbonate would be added not to raise the pH but to neutralize future acids so that the pH would not drop so easily or quickly.


----------



## travish413 (Jan 11, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> It is better to use a mix of carbonates. ie if adding baking soda it is better to add a combination of baking sodas and sodium carbonate. It is better to add a combination of both of those plus some magnesium carbonate. In nature water would also contain cacium carbonate and carbonates with phospohorus, iron and sulfur attached. Nature seldom puts all its eggs in one basket. Most commonly though just adding potasium hydroxide is all that would be done to raise the PH then a carbonate would be added not to raise the pH but to neutralize future acids so that the pH would not drop so easily or quickly.


I thought about KOH but thought it would be to harsh on the plants... Thats some pretty nasty stuff isnt it? I assume that you would just use a very small ratio?


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 11, 2010)

travish413 said:


> I thought about KOH but thought it would be to harsh on the plants... Thats some pretty nasty stuff isnt it? I assume that you would just use a very small ratio?


Takes very,very little to raise the pH with an hydroxide. Depending on the concentration it will typically have a pH between 12 (1/10 mole per liter) and 14 (1 mole per liter).


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 11, 2010)

Fatman
wouldnt one expect the runoff PH to be higher if the input ppm was 650 PH5.3 and the runoff came out at ppm400 ph 5.8. just the lowering of the total ppm should cause the ph to rise. am i wrong on this.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 11, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> Fatman
> wouldnt one expect the runoff PH to be higher if the input ppm was 650 PH5.3 and the runoff came out at ppm400 ph 5.8. just the lowering of the total ppm should cause the ph to rise. am i wrong on this.


 
The pH is a reflection of what is up taken by the roots and what balancing ions are released by the roots plus any effect caused by dying roots adding acids and also carbonates neutralizing acids. Only acids can neutralize hydroxides released by roots. There is no common acid equivalent of a buffer such as carbonates. 

The fertilizer that is normally added to neutralize the pH rising effect is ammonical nitrogen. It just so happens that when conditions are such that the plants is up taking fertilizers that cause the roots to release hydroxides that the plant will uptake ammonical nitrogen instead of nitrates if they are present. In doing so it tends to balance the roots ions levels so that ions are not released in abundance in either direction H+ or OH-. If however you have too much ammonical nitrogen taken up your roots will put out more H+ ions causing a low pH. The denser the buds or the bushier the plants the more ammonical nitrogen that can be taken up if it is present. Combine that with the better the roots systems the better and larger the take up of phosphorus. 

So with typical formulas there is not only a shortage of phosphorus once the plant bushes up, buds thicken and the root mass gets huge the higher demand for ammonical nitrogen to balance out the amounts of phosphorus that is taken up. Nearly all phosphoros in hydroponic fertilizers comes from mono potassium phosphate. Each phosphorus has tow hydroxides attached to it. ie thoase are hydroxides are dumped by the roots back into the water if there is not enough H+ taken into create a balance. 

If a water analysis was run on the waste water I imagine you would find the chief nutrients being taken up at this time are phosphorus and any ammonical nitrogen available. The present uptake o phsophori us is fairly klarge as the phophorus in Lucas Formulas is 10%. However the ammonical nitrogen amount is small at 0.30% of the total formula analysis. While the percentage of ammonical nitrogen to nitrate may not seem small, you must also consider that the percentage of phosphorus to nitrgen is 1:2 If more ammonical nitrogen was available it would be taken up and your pH would drop. If both phosphorus and ammonical nitrogen was added the ppm output would be proportionally smaller as both would be taken up readily. Your pH would then depend upon your ration of phosphorus to ammonical nitrogen. That is if your carbonate levels are not high and therefore neutralizing the H+ released by the roots as a result of the ammonical nitrogen up take.

I really did try to make the answer simple.

Most commercial hydroponic nutrient formulas have ammonical nitrogen levels at minimal amounts (3% to 6% of total nitrogen or even lower). Even HW micro by GH is only about 8 percent. With high pressure aero or atomized aero with large root masses of hair roots I would mix formulas containing 15% ammonical nitrogen. That is the upper maximum level recommended for lesser efficient systems so as to not have large daily drops in pH.

Ammonium nitrate should be readily available at any garden shop in small boxes. (It can be used to make gun powder though so maybe not in Europe, in the US it just requires a permit for bulk loads) Just add a very small amount of it to your nutrients and your waste water pH will drop. However your ppm uptake will likely not increase anymore than the amount of ppm added by the ammonium nitrate.

A simple way to look at it is like this ammonical nitrogen is NH 4+ That 4+ means four hydrogen ions. ie acid Nitrate however as is typically present in calcium nitrate becomes 2HNO3 ie only 2 hydrogen and they combine with oxygen and become H2O (water) ie CaCO3 + 2 HNO3 &#8594; Ca(NO3)2 + CO2 + H2O so there is very little effect on the pH from nitrate uptake.

It is really sad that the administrators do not set the forum up to allow sub text and super text.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 14, 2010)

before you guys get too jelous, i wanted to correct my 1 male plant statement.

it has officially risen to 3 (2 might have been hermie), but all other plants are females, so thats it for the males for sure 

im working on my big rubbermaid tub setup, ill let you know when its done


----------



## clydefrog (Jan 16, 2010)

thanks for the thread treefarmer...how's your growth looking? are you getting a good idea yet of what kind of results you're going to see?


----------



## akaru (Jan 24, 2010)

I just finished prototyping a siphoning nozzle/air compressor setup. I'm using the #8 nozzles. Works nicely, but one issue I'm working on is the placement of the liquid. If the liquid must travel upwards, there is a loss of air due to the nozzle having to siphon the liquid back up. If it is gravity fed, or even placed horizontally, the liquid will continue to siphon through the nozzle, dripping or flowing. Looks like I could either place the tubing so that it must be sucked back up through dead space, and just deal with the losses in air, or I'm going to have to put a solenoid on the liquid flow as well. I wonder if there's a simpler way, some sort of check valve that I could put on the tubing to stop flow until there's a certain amount of pressure (the nozzle's siphoning).

Probably need a larger air tank as well. It's cycling on every four or five sprays (which are currently 3 seconds long).

This is fun.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 24, 2010)

akaru said:


> I just finished prototyping a siphoning nozzle/air compressor setup. I'm using the #8 nozzles. Works nicely, but one issue I'm working on is the placement of the liquid. If the liquid must travel upwards, there is a loss of air due to the nozzle having to siphon the liquid back up. If it is gravity fed, or even placed horizontally, the liquid will continue to siphon through the nozzle, dripping or flowing. Looks like I could either place the tubing so that it must be sucked back up through dead space, and just deal with the losses in air, or I'm going to have to put a solenoid on the liquid flow as well. I wonder if there's a simpler way, some sort of check valve that I could put on the tubing to stop flow until there's a certain amount of pressure (the nozzle's siphoning).
> 
> Probably need a larger air tank as well. It's cycling on every four or five sprays (which are currently 3 seconds long).
> 
> This is fun.


what type of psi you have going to the nozzels to allow the siphon action. maybe increasing the pressure will cause the siphon action to speed up. or maybe you can shorten the length from which it has to siphon upwards. that might cause it to siphon quicker. also using a solenoid to open the feed line would be quit simple since you can use any cheap solenoid cause there is no pressure thru it. 

yea i suspect youll need a bigger tank.that could also be contributing to the long siphon action. as the small volume in the tank goes down the pressure i would think would decrease also.

hows the mist looking like coming from the those nozzels? is it look like a fine mist and hows the cone looking as far as dispersion wise.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 24, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> thanks for the thread treefarmer...how's your growth looking? are you getting a good idea yet of what kind of results you're going to see?


 everything is finished. i didnt break any records of mine but im happy with the results cause what i learned from this will help me in the future to dial this system in. the biggest problems i had was not having the mist cyle right from the start and too small chambers, and didnt quite have the nute levels right. the girls looked healthy all the way to the end ,better than in my lp systems. the roots finished nice and white although some of the fine white hairs disappeared because there was not enough room in the chambers towards the end for the mist to disperse.

the system itself worked great no failures or mishaps. very reliable. only a few clogs thruout the whole run.

As far as is it better than lp i cant say cause i have yet to use the same pheno in both and have not got the thing completly dialed in yet for a complete run. it will take more time.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 24, 2010)

Siphoning issues:
There are many outlets for simple ball type foot valves used for siphoning sysytems such as this (Cole Parmer), but usually they are made for laboratory applications and are therefore expensive. There rae footvalves used on all commercial restaurant dish washing machine detergent systems. They are likely a lot chepaer than laboratory grade. In the US ECOLAB is a service contractor that maintains the machines and sells detergents for them etc. I am sure they price would be fairly economically for their foot valves and they are for smaller tubing so would work quite well. The Laboratory ones are really the same but better materials and beefier construction. Theayare simply a small tube with a ball, usually glass ball, that rests on a beveled seat. They prevent the tubes fluid from draining between siphons. They are installed all the way down at the inlet so aresubmerged in the fluid so the tube will be fluid fi ull up to the inlet at a minimum. I would think a simple little air line check valve used for aquarium air lines would work well, but would need to be replace regularly as the valve flap would not hold up long term to all the salts etc. But as labe foot valves are $100 plus ans an aquairium airline check valves is lih kely justone or two dollars?

One step upfron an aquarium hobby grade valve is a laboratory grade inline check valve for about $5 each. Just place it on the end of your siphon feed line as if it was a foot valve.
http://www.coleparmer.in/catalog/product_view.asp?sku=9855310


----------



## travish413 (Jan 24, 2010)

Ok, I have an issue and need yalls opinion... The acc. tank i am using is 100psi max and i planned on running 90psi max on my system. The issue i have is that tank is going to be placed opposite side of the wall where i sleep... Would yall trust the tank or place it somewhere else and sleep better?


----------



## akaru (Jan 24, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> what type of psi you have going to the nozzels to allow the siphon action. maybe increasing the pressure will cause the siphon action to speed up. or maybe you can shorten the length from which it has to siphon upwards. that might cause it to siphon quicker. also using a solenoid to open the feed line would be quit simple since you can use any cheap solenoid cause there is no pressure thru it.
> 
> hows the mist looking like coming from the those nozzels? is it look like a fine mist and hows the cone looking as far as dispersion wise.


I'm running at 35 psi. Yes, increasing the pressure decreases siphoning time. A solenoid would be simple to do, but I think a foot vale like Fatman mentions would be the simplest option. The mist is looking like a fog, a narrow cone that stretches about five feet. Seems to linger for about a minute in the tiny testing chamber I have. 

The tank I have now is 1.5 gallons...a 30+ gallon tank is looking nice.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 24, 2010)

travish413 said:


> Ok, I have an issue and need yalls opinion... The acc. tank i am using is 100psi max and i planned on running 90psi max on my system. The issue i have is that tank is going to be placed opposite side of the wall where i sleep... Would yall trust the tank or place it somewhere else and sleep better?


i would shoot an email or call to the manufacture tech people and tell them you want to run it from whatever to 90psi and want to know if it would hold up to that. if they say no. i wouldnt put it by my bed. if they say yea then the closet sounds like a good place for it. ive had some in closets and they worked nice cause you can keep the temp and thus the solution at a different temp than the room.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 24, 2010)

akaru said:


> I'm running at 35 psi. Yes, increasing the pressure decreases siphoning time. A solenoid would be simple to do, but I think a foot vale like Fatman mentions would be the simplest option. The mist is looking like a fog, a narrow cone that stretches about five feet. Seems to linger for about a minute in the tiny testing chamber I have.
> 
> The tank I have now is 1.5 gallons...a 30+ gallon tank is looking nice.


i agree as long as the air can overcome the resistance of whatever footvalve you use. let us know how your testing continues. thanks.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 24, 2010)

Surprisngly the cheapest large air tanks I have found are by going to whare house type stores such as Sam's club owned by Walmart, and buying a standard compressor and just removing the cheap oil type loud compressor. I bought a vertical 90 gallon tank 2.5 hp shop compressor that was returned as the pressure switch was improperly set (cycled the tank on at 50 psi and off at 62 psi) for only $149. I gave the motor away. I hooked up a silent oil less dental compressor to the tank. The compressor was an eBay purchase.


----------



## akaru (Jan 24, 2010)

Nice going Fatman, a 90 gallon tank for $150 is incredible. I'll keep a lookout. 90 gallons would be nice, but I'm thinking that would be a long run for my little 0.8 HP, 3.5 CFM compressor. Dunno, maybe it doesn't matter. That tank's gotta be 200 lbs+, eh?

I'm using a walk-in closet for my testing. In a quiet apartment building, so my biggest challenge is quieting everything down. The compressor is in a small silencing cabinet, and I have it bungeed off the floor to minimize vibration. It's still louder than I'd like, so I'm considering building another cabinet around it. I'm calling my setup the Screaming Eagle, because that's exactly what the atomizer sounds like when it sprays. It's cool now, but will probably become irritating quite soon.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 24, 2010)

The tank came with 12" wheels and handles like a hand truck used for boxes or furniture moving. Weight is pretty close. The tank with compressor was 88 inchs tall. Now it is only 70 inches tall. Over kill, but As i did not remove the air dryer from the compressor unit the compressor will appeciatte it. With the small stock tank the air dryer used too much of the air, but without the air dryer the small tank accumalated water too quickly. Maybe If I was not so old , fat and lazy the little tank would have been fine but I am not much for bending over that much.


----------



## akaru (Jan 24, 2010)

If draining the tank was your problem, you could pick up one of those automatic drain kits that let out a burst every time the compressor kicks on. Or you could set up a solenoid with a remote switch. Either way having a big tank is nice. I want one just because a compressor kicking on for a few minutes once an hour or so is less intrusive than it kicking on for a few seconds every 20 minutes.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 24, 2010)

akaru said:


> I just finished prototyping a siphoning nozzle/air compressor setup. I'm using the #8 nozzles. Works nicely, but one issue I'm working on is the placement of the liquid. If the liquid must travel upwards, there is a loss of air due to the nozzle having to siphon the liquid back up. If it is gravity fed, or even placed horizontally, the liquid will continue to siphon through the nozzle, dripping or flowing.


Another simple fix might be to use a small header tank with an overflow back to the res along with a small pump. Set the overflow height in relation to the nozzle feed. 
The small pump will keep the header tank water level constant so the air can start pulling water almost instantly. The tube to the nozzle would need to run upwards (like a water level tube in a dwc bucket) so it doesn`t syphon without the venturi effect of the airflow.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 25, 2010)

akaru said:


> If draining the tank was your problem, you could pick up one of those automatic drain kits that let out a burst every time the compressor kicks on. Or you could set up a solenoid with a remote switch. Either way having a big tank is nice. I want one just because a compressor kicking on for a few minutes once an hour or so is less intrusive than it kicking on for a few seconds every 20 minutes.


It does have a valve that kicks the high end pressure through a dryer and through the compresseor heads and lines etc. It is pretty wasteful and a bit noizy. Not to bad with the large tank as the compressor seldom runs and I was able to adjust it to only blow off 2 psi of pressure through the dryer system.


----------



## akaru (Jan 25, 2010)

Wondering if I can even get a larger tank for my little compressor. Just got word back from the manufacturer, who recommends I not due to overheating the compressor. Not sure how much truth there is to that vs wanting to sell me another compressor. Right now, with a 1.6gallon tank
it cycles about cycles 22sec every 6 min. With a 30 gallon tank that would be about 7 mins / 1-2 hours, and a 60 gallon tank would be about 15 mins every 3 hrs. It does have an internal fan, but I'm not even sure if that still works as I got it used.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 28, 2010)

what we need are aero plug and play walls... to mimic heaths vertical grow tubes, but with true aero chambers that are about 5 ft tall, and have plants coming out the sides of them.

go over to his thread here:
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical-74.html

i have my best one on the next page as well.

let me know what you think... i think its gotta be the best way to go per square foot and per light.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 29, 2010)

My greenhouse vertical uses a similar design except its circular and 2m high. Make sure you go at least 18" wide for the cavity, 2ft would be ideal if you wanted to plant both walls


----------



## squarepush3r (Jan 29, 2010)

vertical + TAG is bomb


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 29, 2010)

That old abbreviation never fails to conjure up images of soaked and drowning roots for me. *
T*otally *A*sphyxiated *G*row would be more apt


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 29, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> That old abbreviation never fails to conjure up images of soaked and drowning roots for me.
> *T*otally *A*sphyxiated *G*row would be more apt


i like the reference to High Pressure aeroponics better as TAG refers to systems that people run at 50psi without short burst cycles(1-2 seconds).

i think any attempt to link TAG systems ive seen with high pressure aeroponics is futile as they do not operate under the same principles. i have yet to see a tag system with roots like an atomizer or high pressure aeroponics system. maybe there out there and i just havent seen one.

I love the idea of HP with vertical its the plant numbers im not keen on. the right vertical with HP could really do well. be nice to see someone design and build one.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 29, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> what we need are aero plug and play walls... to mimic heaths vertical grow tubes, but with true aero chambers that are about 5 ft tall, and have plants coming out the sides of them.
> 
> go over to his thread here:
> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical-74.html
> ...


 
Please do not place links or references to Heath's sad verticl grows here. A small tube grow is bad, a vertical small tube continous grow sytem is even worse. Any system where you are dependent upon an unnaturally high reservoir DO for sustaining a plants very life, yet alone growth is not a good system and should therefore not be referenced or promoted. Heaths vertical sytems is not a goog system made better, but is simply a cheap, poor system with tubes, throughs made in a coil instead of a series of straight channels. Bigger costs, bigger maintenance/operation hassles, but no real gains other than some horizontal space savings.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 29, 2010)

fatman, you of all people should know that im not refering to heaths grow as the greatest...

i simply said... i posted up my idea for a hp aero vertical chamber over in this other thread...

instead of me posting it in every thread and hijacking every thread... once is enough.

there is the link to go look at my pictures to my high pressure vertical walls...

that i emailed YOU about less than 2 days ago...

i think you need to quit jumping to negative conclusions and read what i write the first time.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 29, 2010)

tree farmer...

i agree with you totally, true hp aero is way better.

the nice thing about these chambers is... they will work in the meantime and out perform heaths skinny grow tubes using 50 psi and 80 micron sprayers.

then, or if, a person already has the capability to go HP, like you guys do...

then do it.

its not that hard to swap from one to the other... the chamber stays the same...

just your stuff you have to buy anyway like tanks and lines and solenoids...

but the chamber doesnt change... so i dont see why everyone thinks im endorsing low pressure aero...

im not

im endorsing a vertical chamber wall.


----------



## tree farmer (Jan 29, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> tree farmer...
> 
> i agree with you totally, true hp aero is way better.
> 
> ...


i didnt think you were endorsing lp aero. my coments were in reference to the word TAG that people so often refer too as true aeroponics. ive never seen a thread where someone called it a TAG grow and they were using high pressure aeroponics. to me high pressure aeroponics isnt about the pressure as much as its about being able to deliver the appropriate microdroplets at the correct amounts to achieve the root systems associated with atomized solution results.

if you have a 1000psi but cant control the mist cycles appropriately then it probably isnt going to achieve the same root system associated with controled atomized delivery systems. 

if it wasnt for the numbers needed to run a vertical wall i sure would be trying to build one as im sure the HP and vertical together would be a great combo. i like vertical no matter what way you grow with as it seems to be easier to implement and makes good use of the light bulb.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 30, 2010)

I agree, high pressure water or compressed air provide the means to generate the correct droplet size.. "control" is ultimately responsible for the results  
Vertical fits my situation better than horizontal even though it involves more work, i guess everyone has to decide whats best for them.


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 30, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> fatman, you of all people should know that im not refering to heaths grow as the greatest...
> 
> i simply said... i posted up my idea for a hp aero vertical chamber over in this other thread...
> 
> ...


Not to be confrontational, but don't right something like this then expect me to not say something derogatory.. That system is much worse than just not the "greatest" it just flat out sucked. I see it as a vast waste of toime and money and notmuch more. Basicallt it is a tubular DWC in the round, oh my. True aero in a vertical I can see as a potentially good system, but anytime there is a confined roots system sitting in standing water that must receive its oxygen through the waters DO I am not interested in the design. That is the exact opposite of what an aero grower is trying to achieve... It would be nice to actually have about 18" diamter tubes flush with a floor with full 7 foot or eight foot tubes beneath the floor for aero roots misted by high pressure aero or air atomized nozlles but pretty expensive. That would be quite a sight to walk into a basement and see a room full of tubes filled with white roots.


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 30, 2010)

so how expensive are these timers that go off for a sec, and then on for a min?

problem is... im doing things with solenoids the fatman way, so the solenoid is charged to stay open...

but in staying open, it goes back to the main res

when it shuts, it is forced to go to the sprayers instead.

So what im saying is, i need a timer that goes OFF for a couple seconds, and then provide juice for a min or 2... however long.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 31, 2010)

Depends on the solenoid, if its a normally open type, it`ll close when you apply power to it. A normally closed type would be powered up most of the time which will reduce its life expectancy. A standard cycle timer will work for the N/O solenoid but you might need to add a relay for the N/C type. A 1 sec/1min cycle timer can cost as little as £2.50 ($4) if you make it yourself


----------



## fatman7574 (Jan 31, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Depends on the solenoid, if its a normally open type, it`ll close when you apply power to it. A normally closed type would be powered up most of the time which will reduce its life expectancy. A standard cycle timer will work for the N/O solenoid but you might need to add a relay for the N/C type. A 1 sec/1min cycle timer can cost as little as £2.50 ($4) if you make it yourself


You should start making and selling those timer boards. You would likely sell a huge number to forum growers. Lots of growers switching over to intermittant spraying.


----------



## Atomizer (Jan 31, 2010)

The timer wouldn`t help in most of those cases..theres no advantage running a pump for a second. It seems theres a fair amount of resistance to the notion that using an accumulator is essential


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Depends on the solenoid, if its a normally open type, it`ll close when you apply power to it. A normally closed type would be powered up most of the time which will reduce its life expectancy. A standard cycle timer will work for the N/O solenoid but you might need to add a relay for the N/C type. A 1 sec/1min cycle timer can cost as little as £2.50 ($4) if you make it yourself


 
right, in my paragraph above i explained its normally closed, and when power is applied, it opens, letting the water go back to the res instead of forcing it through the sprayers.

i have no clue how to make them. If you do i would happily pay you more than 4 bucks for it.

i can get an accumulator tank one day, but in the meaintime, im using a 50psi pump with pretty decent volume capability, so the pressure does come on pretty instantly.

worse case scenario i do 3 or 4 seconds instead of 1


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

the pump is always running btw, so it already has its momentum, and so does the water, and when the solenoid slams shut, the water HAS to go through the sprayers.

it happens in less than a second.

A timer that is ON for a min or 2, and then off for just a few seconds is what i would need


----------



## sherriberry (Jan 31, 2010)

the solution ive been looking for...

saw these tonight at home depot, they will work, i will cut large holes in the top and bottoms of them and just stack them 4 high, plus set them on some sort of platform so that gravity brings the water down from the bottom container to the res

cut 1 or 2 holes on the flap for 2 inch netpots, and face that inward towards the light obviously.

I checked for leak possibility, and there is none, the way the sti in eachother, the water will stay inside them even with the tops and bottoms carved out to make it one vertical chamber.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1...atalogId=10053









I found another site too that has hopper style tubs that stack, only problem is they dont have the lid over the hopper side... so the other bin itself is the lid, on top... but on the hopper opening, there is no lid, so it would be a lot more labor intensive, but they have even wider and longer hoppers than the one i just linked above.








http://www.simplastics.com/items.asp?subcat=3


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 1, 2010)

You`ll need to fine tune the flow to the res to maintain a higher average pressure and at the same time prevent the pressure from getting high enough to fire up the nozzles. 
When the solenoid is open the nozzles and res can "see" the flow, when the solenoid is closed only the nozzles "see" the flow. The solenoid may close in the blink of an eye but you`ll be surprised by the time it takes for the pressure to build up in the line to the nozzles. A ballpark estimate, the overall misting pulse will be 3x as long as the timer setting at least


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 1, 2010)

im rude at times i know...

so im fishing for the polite way to say.... im looking at my system, its right here in front of me...

as stated before, it takes less than a sec for the sprayers to come on...

i understand pnumatics and plumbing and pressures very well.

all im asking is can you build me a timer, and how much would it cost?

and then if the day comes i get an accumulator tank, ill drop you a line and say, hey i need a shorter OFF time on my timer..

and we will tackle that problem when it comes.

In the meantime... i cant express how frusterated i get when i ask a question, and people want to tell me about things that im standing here looking at with my own eyes, and it takes 3 days to get an answer to

where can i find a timer?

still waiting...


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 1, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so how expensive are these timers that go off for a sec, and then on for a min?
> 
> problem is... im doing things with solenoids the fatman way, so the solenoid is charged to stay open...
> 
> ...


here i am asking for exactly what i need, through all the babbling in the last 2 days, what i need has not changed.

where can i get one of these timers, or who can teach me how to make one.

i will pay you for your time

thank you.


----------



## NewGrowth (Feb 1, 2010)

Hey sherri, good to see you have a thread on all these ideas. I've built my own custom vertical aero system myself. If you want to check it out feel free I've got pictures here . . .https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/187629-origami-hijack-plus-six-15.html#post3698929

If you are looking for a cycle timer to run your sprayers I use the CAP brand ART-DNe (google that and tons will come up) adjustable cycle timer they go for about $80 and are fully adjustable both on and off time as well as a photocell. If you want to go cheaper you could get one of their non-adjustable timers as well.

Good luck sherri, keep us updated . . .


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 1, 2010)

No one needs paying as information on this thread comes free of charge  
If you can handle a soldering iron and basic electronic components you can build a timer. A simple SPDT or DPDT (change over) relay will allow for both on/off or off/on operation depending how you hook it up. 
The timing range dictates the component values, 1 sec /1 min wouldn`t have a long enough pause but you could easily change it in 1 min increments. I`m not located in the states so i can`t ship you one but if you can source the components i can certainly tell you how to make one.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 1, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> here i am asking for exactly what i need, through all the babbling in the last 2 days, what i need has not changed.
> 
> where can i get one of these timers, or who can teach me how to make one.
> 
> ...


check these timers out. they dont get any cheaper and they have many different ones besides the one i linked. just type in timers into their search engine and it will show you what they got. certainly one of these wil work as some go down to seconds intervals. there not plug and play but for 20 bucks you cant complain.

http://www.hobbytron.com/UK191.html


----------



## laughingduck (Feb 1, 2010)

Sherriberry: check this out
NCC National controls corporation
solid state timer
model CKK-3600-461
range 36-3600 sec.

This is the timer i use, it requires an 8 pin socket to connect to it, but it works awsome for me.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 1, 2010)

36 seconds is a tad too long for this application, we need something that goes down to a second or less ideally


----------



## GypsyBush (Feb 6, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Please do not place links or references to Heath's sad verticl grows here.


2.1 grams per watt is a SAD GROW????

Really...

What kind of numbers do you get????


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 6, 2010)

It takes me about 1/2 kwh of power for lighting for a grow . Add onn the air conditioning, dehumidifier pumps etc then just under 1 kwh per gram total. That is for a 7 week budding cycle. I can safely bet Heath's vertical is doing no better and his quality is lower plus he will grow half as many griows per year in his set up. Plus his sytem is dependent on an unnaturally high DO for mere survival yet alone growth. My sytems actually do better at higher resrvoir water temps and could care less if the nutrient water DO is high or not.

This thread has nothing to do with Heaths' grow so it has no reason for being talked about here so his grow should be talked about on his thread not so quit being a troll. But being your insistent about bringing his sad grow sytem up again. His grow sucked, his methodology sucked, his system sucked. Try asking him about his level of root rot or his length of time budding, or the strain he grew. Looks like mainly sativa. Such a yield for a principally sativa strain is not impressive at all. Given *all data for* his grow one would likely find his grow was nothing but averag or less. Hell any average experienced grower ought to be able to get over 2 grams per watt given a long enough grow, spread over a large enough area, but as in Heath's grow g quality would lack. The seed growers advertise a greater expected yield than Heath obtained give his square footage. 

What would be impresive is to know the amount of kwh used. His "system" is 4 ft in daiamter and three foot tall. That means a suface area of 37.7 square feet/10.33 = 3.65 square meters, An average grow reported by most seed sellers is 400 to 450 grams per square meter, so 3.65 & [(400 +450)/2] = 1551 grams *Average* yield to expect. His grow as only 1260 grams. So while he obtained 81% of rated average yields and did it with a smaller wattage but one knows how long it took for the budding time so know one knows the actual kwh used. It is the yield/kwh that matter not the yield/(bulb wattage). Then there is the quality. As much as you guys that kiss Heath's butt want to believe. No system with only 16 watts per square foot is going to put out the same quality of buds as a grown done under 4 times that amount of lighting as is nearer the standard. Lights only put out so many lumens and provide so much PAR. Spreading the light over 4 times the area only vertically will definitely not provide the same PAR. When his lame vertical grow can put out near one gram per kwh in 9 weeks of budding I will be consider it worthy of some of the butt kissing praise some growers with few brains are giving it. Until then it is just another lame gimmic grow. 

So Heath is getting 33.41 grams persquare foot for a yield. so; (600 w/ 1000 w) kwh* 12 hrs/day * 7 days/ week * 12 weeks = 604 kwh 604/1260 gram = 0.48 kwh/gram plus pump and ventilation etc

My kwh/yield is (1000 w/1000 w) kwh * 12 hrs/day * 7 days/ week * 7 weeks = 588 588/1200 = 0.49 kh/gram plus pump etc. I use air conditioning and CO2 so my costs will be slightly higher than his fan aerated system but if using a ca hiller that will maen the cots will about equal. BUT my finished product is assuredly a better quality and I can grow 8 crops a year verus his four posibly five.

Enough said. Enough scope creap.


----------



## GypsyBush (Feb 6, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Grow up child. This thread has nothing to do with Heaths' grow take your ass kissing to him instead.


It was a simple question...

No need to attack me...

Just give me a simple answer please...


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 6, 2010)

I just fully explained it dude. I gauge my grow performance on grams/kwh not grams per watt. Grams per watt means nothing. But if it is how to blow your bubbles. I get about 1.26 grams watt but I get it in seven weeks growing a chiefly indica/afghani strain versus Heath's 12 weeks or more for an airy, stemmy, sativa dominant strain. 

I don't grow *rappy pot. Heath's vertical grow with a good indica/afghani strain would likely have an out put of about half or max 2/3 of what he produced in his singular grow. So in other words if you want a slow grow system that puts out a lot of airy buds then maybe you would like Heath's vertical grow. Make sure you keep an extra air pump and back up circulating pump on hand and use plenty of chlorox or H2O2. And get a ladder to climb in and out. And some buckets for the overflows and such.


----------



## GypsyBush (Feb 6, 2010)

Thanks for your time...

Not too sure what I did to merit so much hostility, but thanks anyways...


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 6, 2010)

GypsyBush said:


> Thanks for your time...
> 
> Not too sure what I did to merit so much hostility, but thanks anyways...


I am not trying to direct hostility to you personally, just in general to all those who troll threads to makes claims about the wonders of Heath's sad vertical grow sytem. I actually find merit in the theory of vertical grows, just not high nutrient DO dependent ones. I would not consider ever using so little light as used in his systems however. Thai is as sad as his nutrient delivery system. Flowing water. Oh my. Aqua culture (DWC) in small vertical tubes is a more appropriatte name. IMHO It is even substandard to an aero vertical grow.


----------



## GypsyBush (Feb 6, 2010)

So now that we have the hostilities out of the way...

Could we see what you do?

Without name calling... I think that is so childish...


----------



## NewGrowth (Feb 7, 2010)

I think I'm going to un-subscribe to this thread. fatman you need to get over yourself


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 7, 2010)

Allah shazam, open says a me, gazam, boom sha ka laka boom. I used all by powers of persuasion so is he gone.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 8, 2010)

here are some root shots of my new test subjects. first pic is clone roots after six days in HP system and the last 2 pics are 12 day old roots in HP system(cant lift them out anymore as they are entagled already in the biospheres).

the roots are looking alot better than last time i was severly overwatering until the 6th week. im somewhat overmisting yet now to try and keep the roots down low as long as possible. I also have extended the misters down into the chambers level with the bottom of the pots. this is to encourage the roots to fill in under the netpots as much as possible before fluffing out. as you can see in the one pic they are already starting to climb the wall headed for the mist lines so they can hang and suck up the mist like last time. that is a good thing but not to soon cause i dont want to run out of space in the chambers before the finish.

i had the ec level to high to start with and have finally found the level these are happy with. a ridiculous 120ppm .5 scale. 

i know i need larger chambers but wanted to do a few more tests to get everything in order so i know how to design the new chambers. theres going to be some root scrog implemented in the new chambers.


----------



## GypsyBush (Feb 8, 2010)

WOW!!!

Thanks for sharing that...!!!


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 8, 2010)

what do the blue balls do, and when you say 6 days, do you mean from cut, or from the first sign of root?

Im trying to figure out where to put my 50psi misters (50psi pump, 80psi misters from the drip store)

trying to figure out where the best place to have them spray into the tub would be...

Down from the lid (im worried light will heat up lines and nutes tho)

Or in from the sides jsut below the lid.

Or... better ideas????

any other tricks or secrets are welcome too.

Thanks.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 8, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> what do the blue balls do, and when you say 6 days, do you mean from cut, or from the first sign of root?
> 
> Im trying to figure out where to put my 50psi misters (50psi pump, 80psi misters from the drip store)
> 
> ...


the blue balls are an experiment to see if they will help keep the roots somewhat lifted off the chamber floor. i usually use silk screen but wanted to try something different. i also am trying them in the netpots instead of hydroton. i hate the hydroton rinse bullshit and it holds to much water for this application so i thought these might work. so far i like what i see in the netpot and i feel they are doing some good so far on the chamber floor. they are weighted so they are almost as heavy as hydroton but have the benefit of not holding water like hydroton. they kinda lock themselves together and give pretty good support.

the clones were rooted in a faux aero cloner. i wrapped those roots around the bottom of the 10 inch netpot and stuck them into the hp pods. none of the faux aero roots grew once in the HP system. they just layed in the bottom of the netpots and new white HP roots developed off the aero cloner roots. that is what you see 6 and 12 days in the HP system. clones were under floros in the faux aero cloner for weeks in 65 degree suspended state with no nutes hardly while i got things ready.

on commercial HP aero systems they have the misters on the side just below the lid. top down works also but from what ive gathered so far you have to keep a good gap between the mister and the net pot cause the roots will fluff out towards the mister and if the mister is to close the roots will quickly stop the dispersion of the mist. also have them so you can get to them easily to replace and check if plugged. im thinking in my new pods to have the misters top down but have them on some type of rail so i can move them outward as the roots fluff out from the netpots.

my nute solution res is outside the room and stays at 67 degrees and the chamber pods stay at 69 degrees without any type of cooling. room stays at 77 degrees. cover the containers in insulation and white panda. keep your feed lines under the white panda plastic and it should stay pretty close to whatever the res temp is as long as you keep the feed lines going to the containers small and keep the solution going thru them without to much dwell time in the lines.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 9, 2010)

well i finally got my new timers. now ill have seperate timers for night and day mist cycles and be able to go to 1 sec on times with the new nozzels. i have had one of these timers for over 6 yrs using it on and off through the yrs for various aero projects and never had a failure. very versatile and can go down to .5 sec. if need be. Each knob is adjustable for seconds, minutes and hours so you can get any cycle imaginable. Also will work with any voltage from 24VAC-240VAC and up to 24VDC. $80.

Found some Dyna gro pro foliage that fatman and Uncle ben recommend so going to give it atry and see if it kicks butt. looks like it will work with the misters, not thick at all.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 9, 2010)

Cool. A lot easier than the programming of the timers I use. Takes an few minutes just to make a simple adjustment to my Omron timers. They do have memory and auto reset and a broader range of cycle times but that is not really needed. Pretty digital display and about 3 times the retail cost. I would definitely not use the Omrons if I had to pay retail for them. I might have to get a link to your timers as the Omrons are hard to get through ebay for a price less than $75 commonly.

I hope the fertilizer works well for you. As long as you keep your roots mass from growing to fast and causing a phosphorus shortage the Dyna- grow Foliage-Pro should work well. If you see any signs of a phosphorus shoratge just add a little monoPotassium Phosphate to the mix. It can not be used to make exaplosives so ought to be readily available. If you see a blooming supplemental fertilizer that shows only phosphorus and potash as ingrediants it is MonoPottasium Phosphate. It is strong as it is 21% Phospahte and 25% Pottasium so you definetly want to use a conductivity meter whem adding it. I would not raise your overall ppm with the more than 1/6 of your original overall ppm. That should incrase your phosphorus by 42% and your Potash by 25%.


----------



## clydefrog (Feb 9, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> Found some Dyna gro pro foliage that fatman and Uncle ben recommend so going to give it atry and see if it kicks butt. looks like it will work with the misters, not thick at all.


that's interesting. the dyna grow my local shop mixes up on site is 7-9-5...i don't think they have this particular mixture.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 9, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Cool. A lot easier than the programming of the timers I use. Takes an few minutes just to make a simple adjustment to my Omron timers. They do have memory and auto reset and a broader range of cycle times but that is not really needed. Pretty digital display and about 3 times the retail cost. I would definitely not use the Omrons if I had to pay retail for them. I might have to get a link to your timers as the Omrons are hard to get through ebay for a price less than $75 commonly.
> 
> I hope the fertilizer works well for you. As long as you keep your roots mass from growing to fast and causing a phosphorus shortage the Dyna- grow Foliage-Pro should work well. If you see any signs of a phosphorus shoratge just add a little monoPotassium Phosphate to the mix. It can not be used to make exaplosives so ought to be readily available. If you see a blooming supplemental fertilizer that shows only phosphorus and potash as ingrediants it is MonoPottasium Phosphate. It is strong as it is 21% Phospahte and 25% Pottasium so you definetly want to use a conductivity meter whem adding it. I would not raise your overall ppm with the more than 1/6 of your original overall ppm. That should incrase your phosphorus by 42% and your Potash by 25%.


fatman 
ill keep an eye out for lack of phosphorus and pick some up just in case.

im trying to figure some way to use the runoff ppm as a guide to tell me when to up the input ppm. Is there some rough figure or do you have a hunch as to what the difference from input to runoff ppm should be. right now going in at 120ppm and coming out 90ppm. not alot of difference yet ,but what difference do you think would be an indication to up the input ppm. thanks.


----------



## clydefrog (Feb 9, 2010)

here's a link to those atc timers...

http://www.anderson-bolds.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=AB&Product_Code=ABT422A100F10X&Category_Code=AT


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 9, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> that's interesting. the dyna grow my local shop mixes up on site is 7-9-5...i don't think they have this particular mixture.


yea thats all i could find locally also 7-9-5. had to have them order it for me.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 9, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> yea thats all i could find locally also 7-9-5. had to have them order it for me.


The 7-9-5 is more of a early spring formulation that assures ample phosphorus for large amounts of root growth. Are you sure your looking at the right name brand? There is Dyna-Gro(w) that sells Foliage-Pro ("*Foliage-Pro 9-3-6*: Used to improve the health of indoor plants."), and they also sell "*Liquid Grow 7-9-5*: This provides all of the nutrition that your plant will need to thrive. It is especially helpful for gardeners that have rocky soil." It is intended for soil growing so I imagine a good portion of its nitrogen is ammonical. 

While this higher level of ammonical nitrogen will be taken up well by the plants during early root development it will not be readily available to the plants again until the last few weeks of budding when the buds are thick and the foilage is thick so lighting is more diffuse and lower intnsity to the majority of the leaf surfaces. Ammonical nitrogen is a positive charge ion, and phosphorus is a neg charged ion so they do not compete with each other. Nitrate is a negative charge ion so it competes with phosphorus. 
 Ooops probably more than you wanted to know.

Phosphorus is quite often over used in soil formulations as it is the least soluble of the macro nutrients. However, it is las the least lechable so it tends to accumulate in soils with much humus/tilth. I guess thet assumerocky soil holds less phosphorus as it would have less humus. Who Knows.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 10, 2010)

so i had a power surge superbowl sunday around 2pm according to my timers... and my bat backup prob ran for about 2 hours. And then i got home at 11pm.

So prob 6 or mroe hours... no water to my plants.

honestly... i cant see how they arent worse, but on my big plants the leaves curled.

The good news is the lights were out too... my normal cycle is on at noon and off at midnight.

but at 2 my lgihts went out.

I didnt turn them back on at 11pm, i just left them off, and turned them on the next morning at noon.

Who knows how much damage was done to roots.

Seems like all growth on all plants is stunned.

But the leaves on a lot of plants remained fine actually.

There are about 20 plants in there.

4 of them are a different strain, more sativa, and tall, and long branches... they suffered bad.

Im a little over a month into budding.

Who knows what my yeild will be 

It could have been worse tho... if lights wouldnt have tripped, i think all my plants would be dead.

I need an alarm to call my cell if something like this happens again. Good lord.


----------



## clydefrog (Feb 10, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Are you sure your looking at the right name brand? There is Dyna-Gro(w) that sells Foliage-Pro ("*Foliage-Pro 9-3-6*: Used to improve the health of indoor plants."), and they also sell "*Liquid Grow 7-9-5*:



yeah, its the same brand. i think DG sells the salt mixture wholesale to shops like mine that i believe mix it on site and slap their own label on it. that way its cheaper than the competitors since you're not paying for the weight/volume of shipping water...I'm going to swing by there today and see what i've been missing out on.


----------



## clydefrog (Feb 10, 2010)

thought this was an interesting concept...the nozzles are really inexpensive.

http://www.mistcooling.com/pumptimer.htm


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 10, 2010)

For $1000 you should get the nozzles for free, it`ll be fairly noisy too at 75db.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so i had a power surge superbowl sunday around 2pm according to my timers... and my bat backup prob ran for about 2 hours. And then i got home at 11pm.
> 
> So prob 6 or mroe hours... no water to my plants.
> 
> ...


thats why i built this backup for my system. this could run a very long time as it only has to run for a minute every couple hours to pump the accumulator up. right now id have to plug it in if power goes out but im going to eventually hook it so that if the pressure in the line drops to a preset limit (meaning the power has failed) it would automatically take over. so right now it is a backup if the main pump fails or the power goes out. i have a remote sensor that tells me the temp when im not there. you can tell just from the temps pretty much anything amiss in the room just from having a temp reading. these types of devices will send you a text or call. called a sensaphone.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 10, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> thought this was an interesting concept...the nozzles are really inexpensive.
> 
> http://www.mistcooling.com/pumptimer.htm


 
920 psi?!?!?

that doesnt even make sense


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 10, 2010)

A back up system is a good safety net to have. With a new build the whole misting system (pump,timer,solenoid) could be designed to run on 12v dc. A 100w solar panel and a deep cycle leisure battery would cover the 4amps a day.
You`d need a lot of panels and invertors to run the lights though


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 10, 2010)

yeah, i think all youd need is a big battery huh?

anyway,

those blue balls that tree farmer is using...

i think that would be better than hydron the more i think about it.

You can buy those things in different styles and such...

and buy them in bulk over on alibaba.com

for the doubleD 10 plant tree grow with the hydron...

i bet if he used those instead it would work out even better.

Only problem is, kiss those goodbye at the end of a grow, there is no way you can get those blue balls out of a root mass 

but if you buy them in bulk, they arent that expensive

Great inovation on the blue ball idea buddy


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 10, 2010)

You could always compost the roots and pick out the bioballs when its rotted down. Pity the bioballs don`t come in stainless thenyou could incinerate the rootball to get them back.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 10, 2010)

yeah, this bio ball thing really has my head wrenching...

i know fatman is going to want to eat me after even suggesting this...

but, consider the following...

in a hp aero setup (which i dont have) once the root ball gets big, i dont see how the mist can actually get inside it... it hits the outer pom pom, and gets absorbed.

So in my feeble little mind, im seeing the middle roots becoming almost useless.

With hydroton, i have seen great results over on thcfarmer.com with doublD's hydroton buckets, which are suspended above another tub, with fast rushing dwc in the bottom, and the plants grow to tree size and yeild over 4 lbs a plant in 11 weeks from seed... Thats not shabby.

WHen you think of the surface area of a hydroton pellet, vs one of these bioballs... its a no brainer the bioball has a lot more.

In addition to having a lot more surface area...

If you were to compare a bucket of hydroton, and measure the left over air gaps between the pellets...

and then compare that to a bucket of bioballs, and measure the left over air still in the bucket... i think the difference would be HUGE. I would say well over double air space in a bucket filled with bio balls.

So whats that mean? First of all it means more air.

Second, it means more area for root mass.

And the bio balls allow the roots to spread laterally, which, might not be as good as hp aero...

but its gotta be better than lp aero, bc in lp aero, the roots just dangle down, dont bush out, and root mass is root mass.

Im really contemplating filling a big vertical tube with these bio balls, ordering them in bulk from a suplier in china, and putting a constant drip feed up top

And having a duel against a mp aero vertical chamber as well, and seeing which one would prevail.

My gut right now is saying these bio balls would


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 10, 2010)

essentially, its 3 dimensional nft.. and 2 dimansional nft is well proven to do a good job.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 10, 2010)

A 1mm x 1mm hole is like a barn door to a 50 micron droplet, upto 400 could fit through it in one go.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 10, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> You could always compost the roots and pick out the bioballs when its rotted down. Pity the bioballs don`t come in stainless thenyou could incinerate the rootball to get them back.


The plastic is able to easily handle treatment wth acids or bases or any oxidizer. ie throw in a perforated bucket and put this bucket in a strong solution of of base such as a toilet bowl cleaner that contains hodroxides such as sodium hydroxide or potasium hydroxide and soak, pull out perforated bucket then rinse. Now out bucket in a bucket with a strong solution of an acid like muriatic acid and soak. Pull out and rinse.

Or oxidize the roots with a strong chlorine solution. But as the roots are organic there will be a strong release of ammonia gas so do this outside. This will cause putrefication of the roots and they will literally fall apart.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 11, 2010)

well fatman...

im sitting here trying to figure out the simplest system for quick turn arounds.

I know that hp aero makes a plant grow the fastest...

but, when i realize i can make infinite clones pretty much... quantity of plants can overcome one super large plant i think.

This whole bio ball thing got my brain going, and i just made heaths spiral tube obsolete i think...


instead of a tube spiraling...

just make a perfect ring.

And then another ring of pipe down a foot or so from it.

Then connect all the perfect rings with a vertical pipe that comes straight down to the res.

Give each ring a slight slight tilt so that the vertical pipe is at the lowest point of the ring.

Put the plant sites all around each ring.

Put a light bulb in the middle of the rings.


Now... take it one step further... heaths setup is a bitch to get in and out of im sure...

So now get rid of the ring and just do a C... or a ring with a small gap in it.

Put 2 endcaps, one on each end of the C.

Put the vertical pipe down the middle of the c's and give the c's a tilt.

Now... bioballs...


instead of having deep water inside the pipe like heath does...

all one would have to do is put sprayers.. or better yet... a lazer cut aeration hose in each ring of pipe.. and lay it up on top of the bioballs.

Then put it on a timer on off, or do a constant trickle like they do over at thcfarmer.com with the doubleD setup.

IF there were large enough pipes... one could do this with HP aero. At that point i think i would just make the pipes vertical pilars, and have a horizontal line at the bottom of the pilars connection them all, and a bit of dwc at the bottom of each pilar... and have 4 or 5 plants up a pilar... and then just add more pilars to the circle if the plants are too close to the light, or subtract pilars from the circle if the plants are too far away.

If i was HP this si the way id go...

But the perfect large diameter pipe is yet to be discovered.

However, since its vertical, one could use that black ribbed plastic pipe that they put under the ground...

Or you can go with those bin totes that stack, that they sell at home depot now.

The totes would pobably be better.

Technically, one could fill those totes from top to bottom, and cut the bottoms out so they make a pilar.... and fill those with bioballs, and jsut have a lazer cut aeration line spiral its way down through the balls.. or maybe youd only need to drip from the very top, and it would work its way down evenly across all the balls, who knows.

I know hp aero is the best... but im still exploring all options as far as simplicity and cost are concerened


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 11, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> I am using 18G totes (15" deep). I am looking for cylinders that can be used vertically, like pilars. No dead spots.
> 
> My roots grew so damn fast that I had to get additional totes and stack them, cutting way tops and bottoms. I now have 30" depth, and some roots have gathered on the bottom.
> 
> ...


 
Here is what you want...

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5/R-100669782/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

they stack bottom to top, and leave potential plant sites to be cut out of the diagonal flap.

The middle of the lid can be cut out, and the bottom on the next one, and THEY DONT LEAK!

you can stack these infinitely high...

They come in a 4 pack, or buy them for 9.99 at home depot one at a time.

If a person put a sprayer in the back wall f each of these, or maybe every other one... i think its the future of hp aero and vertical growing.

Even if a person found a large vertical tube, you still have the plant site issue to deal with... These tubs make it a piece of cake to drill a hole in the diagonal flap and put in a netpot.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 11, 2010)

@ Petflora. Your reply makes no sense.

A mathematical statement:
A 1mm x 1mm hole is like a barn door to a 50 micron droplet, upto 400 could fit through it in one go.



PetFlora said:


> Wrong. As soon as the fog hits the bottom, it combines into ever larger droplets which combine into a liquid.


Fog, gravity and coalescence have absolutely nothing to do with the theoretical number of 50 micron droplets that will fit into a 1mm x 1mm area


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 11, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> I am using 18G totes (15" deep). I am looking for cylinders that can be used vertically, like pilars. No dead spots.
> 
> My roots grew so damn fast that I had to get additional totes and stack them, cutting way tops and bottoms. I now have 30" depth, and some roots have gathered on the bottom.
> 
> ...


if you look back a couple pages you can see my 6 and 12 day old roots. these roots are the same as the 8 week old roots from last round in all aspects. ive seen no difference beween grow roots and bloom roots. theres nothing to support that idea that im aware of.

i also dont have any live bacteria colonizing the root system cause i run a sterile root zone so i dont think there is any bacteria feeding the roots. that happens in soil and organic hydro systems. H2o kills the bacteria.

my roots also grow along the bottom of the chamber and the walls and the ceiling of the chamber. i dont see much if any difference between the roots on the floor, walls or ceiling. there is never enough water to drench the floor roots so they develop in a similar fashion to the rest.

i could run the system where by almost no droplets would form anywhere including the roots but at this time im trying to encourage the roots to fill the bottom of the chamber before heading up the walls and ceiling and slightly overmisting seems to keep them from developing to much fluff. ill save that for later if possible.

Glad you could stop by but here we make the info up as we go and dont rely on the info contained in the TAG thread as the absolute truth. some of it may indeed be true but ive found alot of stuff from there that doesnt correlate to real world examination.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 11, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> I am using 18G totes (15" deep). I am looking for cylinders that can be used vertically, like pilars. No dead spots.
> 
> My roots grew so damn fast that I had to get additional totes and stack them, cutting way tops and bottoms. I now have 30" depth, and some roots have gathered on the bottom.
> 
> ...


If you want cylinders that size, cut down 55g plastic drums to the depth you need. I think that's the way I'm headed next.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 11, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> I got my MDT 1 timer a week ago, and am still nailing down the on/pause times. Currently 6 seconds on/8 min pause. I am running longer on because the line pressure drops (no accum) and was getting a lot of spit (large droplets hanging on the roots).
> 
> My fog heads are 0.9gph. I think 0.5 would help a lot. Investigating check valves to keep line pressure up.
> 
> ...


Hey it's the Troll from IC come to talk nonsense and run back home to IC. Wow, now your even trying to pretend to know something about HP aero. This should be fun. Save your self some embarrassment now and go back to IC. In case you have not been tod lately linking to your write up in another forum is against forum rules here. Maybe if you get reported enough the moderators here will finally bar your IP address.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 11, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> Wrong. As soon as the fog hits the bottom, it combines into ever larger droplets which combine into a liquid.


Wow, you are quite a goof. Have you researched HP or air atomized chamber grows at all. I thought not. Have you completed a single HP or air atomized chamber grow. I thought not.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 11, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> I am using 18G totes (15" deep). I am looking for cylinders that can be used vertically, like pilars. No dead spots.
> 
> My roots grew so damn fast that I had to get additional totes and stack them, cutting way tops and bottoms. I now have 30" depth, and some roots have gathered on the bottom.
> 
> ...


 
How about some photos of your three foot tall plants child.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 11, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> If you want cylinders that size, cut down 55g plastic drums to the depth you need. I think that's the way I'm headed next.


 
you lost me with that verbage...

cut them down to the size you need?

a 55g drum is not tall enough to begin with.

Why would you cut it down?

If they stack on top of eachother and you can cut the bottom and top out of them, and thats what you meant, then maybe you are onto something.

How do you think you would go about creating a plant site and securing the netpot or plant for that matter... to a vertical wall?

We are talking about putting plants up a vertical wall, around a light in pilars, like heaths flooded vertical tube... only using hp aero instead.

The pilar, is a way to allow for the roots to get long,a nd have one large chamber where you shoot in the hp aero mist.

Just making sure everyone is on the same page


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 11, 2010)

Ok I wasn't on the same page I have missed quite a few, nevermind. I was thinking he just wanted taller round 18-25 gallon size is all.

I see those big green plastic drainage culvert things on craigslist from time to time in all sizes and lengths, I guess if you capped the ends maybe but that's stuff is so expensive new... I have used that stuff before for subwoofer tubes, heavy heavy heavy duty. Is that more what you're looking for?


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 11, 2010)

You actually are onto something.

In heaths grow, the plants stay short, prob due to genetics, and root limiations.

In ours, plants will obviously get taller.

The tallest point on the pilar only has to be at the netpot site of the plant.

If a plant got to 4 ft, then there would be no reason to get a taller drum.

I think, the drum is actually a great idea.

If a person put 2 plants up on top of the drum, on each side, and then put 4 more plants down the wall of it, 2 at each level. clocked 90 degress from eachtoehr, 45 degrees from center..

That would be 6 plants per drum.

I guess the real question is how quick does the strain grow and how big do its roots get and how quick?

Technically... i think if you had 1 plant that filled the whole drum with roots, vs 20 plants that were root locked, and filled the whole drum with roots, i bet overall end total yeild would still be about the same.

IF thats the case, then understand that the only thing gained is the light that hits the drum, is now hitting leaves instead if you have plants up the side of it.

The only trick is how to keep the netpot secured on a vertical wall.

The plants on the bottom levels will pretty much just be dwc, as there will be 2 or more inches of rushing water going by as it flows from drum to drum via the bulkhead fittins i put at the bottom so that there is dwc water at the bottom to catch excess mist. But hey, dwc grows plants, and a plant catching the light of the bottom 2 ft of the drum vs a plant not catching light at the bottom 2 feet of the drum?...

its a no brainer that A PLANT is better than NO PLANT... no matter what the roots are growing in.

Where do you think the best price on these drums would be? Used obviously.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 11, 2010)

Craigslist is the place for any of that stuff cheap usually. Used plastic drums/barrels/stock tanks/buckets/water towers, you'll see tons of them, cheap if you are in a large city. There are many different styles, pickle barrels are really really nice too, but they're a bit more expensive. There are also container recycling companies in the yellow pages or closest shipyard/large rail drop off area if you are more in the middle of nowhere.

Like this:
http://www.rinenterprises.com/OTPD230STG.htm


----------



## travish413 (Feb 11, 2010)

Tree farmer
Atomizer
Fatman,

Looks like this thread has gained some attention since i have been gone 
Hope all is well with yalls grows and tree farmer i cant wait to see results from this second grow!


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 11, 2010)

well i got my new timers installed. iwas going to have them switch between night and day with a photo eye but deceided to use a timer instead. this way i can switch over a little sooner before lights out to the night setting and switch to the day setting a little sooner before lights on if need be. i have it wired so if the relay or timer failes it will default to the day setting. Currently trying 1 sec every three minutes to see how the 1 sec pulse works out since i was at 2sec every 6 minutes. the control pod is running out of places to mount things. it keeps morphing. 

the little timer way in the bottom right corner controls the day-night cycle. so the whole timer setup was about 185 and does what most timers you can buy dont do. have both night and day adjustments.


----------



## travish413 (Feb 11, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> well i got my new timers installed. iwas going to have them switch between night and day with a photo eye but deceided to use a timer instead. this way i can switch over a little sooner before lights out to the night setting and switch to the day setting a little sooner before lights on if need be. i have it wired so if the relay or timer failes it will default to the day setting. Currently trying 1 sec every three minutes to see how the 1 sec pulse works out since i was at 2sec every 6 minutes. the control pod is running out of places to mount things. it keeps morphing.
> 
> the little timer way in the bottom right corner controls the day-night cycle. so the whole timer setup was about 185 and does what most timers you can buy dont do. have both night and day adjustments.


 Thats awesome Looks like something id throw together... just keep adding things till it works the way you need it too You should get TMH to write you a program once you know what timing cycle and all your specs are... Anyway i just wanted to stop by and say hi. I touched on the subject before, but i was doing a little rehabing. 
38 days opiate free! I finally feel like getting started on my project again. Ill have it finished before long, I hope


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 11, 2010)

travish413 said:


> Thats awesome Looks like something id throw together... just keep adding things till it works the way you need it too You should get TMH to write you a program once you know what timing cycle and all your specs are... Anyway i just wanted to stop by and say hi. I touched on the subject before, but i was doing a little rehabing.
> 38 days opiate free! I finally feel like getting started on my project again. Ill have it finished before long, I hope


glad to hear your off those. they can be fun but as you know will make a slave out of you. stay busy and good luck.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 11, 2010)

travish413 said:


> Thats awesome Looks like something id throw together... just keep adding things till it works the way you need it too You should get TMH to write you a program once you know what timing cycle and all your specs are... Anyway i just wanted to stop by and say hi. I touched on the subject before, but i was doing a little rehabing.
> 38 days opiate free! I finally feel like getting started on my project again. Ill have it finished before long, I hope


Aren't you glad you grow MJ and not poppies. I've gone to the memorials services of more than just a few poppy growers over the years. Amazing how quick an unconscious person can suffocate on their own vomit. Euphoria gone too far is death in the world of opiates. To much MJ just makes you a fatman searching the grocery store munchies isle in the middle of the morning, afternoon, evening and night.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 12, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Craigslist is the place for any of that stuff cheap usually.


 
yeah, you were right on.







They have some plastic barrels on craigslist in blue, black or white, for 15 bucksa pop, and they come with a lid, and all kinds of unscrewable caps up top.

They are 55gal. They also have smaller 30ish gallon ones.

im thinking about doing the 55gal ones eventually.

They are 34 inches tall, and 24 inches accross.

Hell, i think these things are better for aero tubes if they were laid on their sides than enything eles i have seen anyone use. 24 inches wide is no joke.

Id use the blue or black obviously, not the white.

In the meantime, im still trying to solve this netpot site on a vertical wall issue.

I will link some pics if i can to show you what ive found..






This first one is a double female 45 degree 1 1/2 inch pvc elbow... and guess what fits down inside of it PERFECTLY??... a 2 inch net pot 

The best angle is the 60 deg one, but it is not shown on their site, but its in the store. Obviously, the netpot would be at 60 deg from the vertical wall.

So the trick is fastening this pvc piece.. to a vertical wall. What im toying with is slicing a thin piece of pvc pipe, and fitting it into the female end... and then getting another female coupling to slip on the pvc pipe from inside the chamber... essentially using the 2 females as a sandwich... and cutting the hole in the vertical wall only big enough for the male pvc pipe... and then once everythign fits well, getting out the pvc glue and making sure they stay tight.

In both the 45 deg and the 60 deg, the bottom of the netpot almost makes it to the end of this piece, so the roots would hang down perfectly inside the chamber, away from the wall just a bit.

If you really wanted to keep them away from the wall, you could leave the female fitting on the inside longer, but the roots on the plant would have to be of good length before you put them in the chamber otherwise they would all be in the pvc, and not get misted.







This has a male end to it... they have one in the store that has a raised lip about an inch in from the male tip, so that the whloe piece wouldnt slip inside the chamber... add a female to this male from inside the wall, and you wouldnt have to have 3 pieces, you could eliminate the pvc male sliced section of pipe from the equation all together and just have this pictured fitting and a female fitting slide onto it from behind the wall.

Alright... im ready for one of you guys to tell me how to do it better and simpler and make me feel supid... come on, im ready.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 12, 2010)

as the plants grow and gain weight, the neoprene in the top of a net pot... when situated at an angle... it gives up eventually...

but the cool thing here is, by that time, youll also have a nice ball of roots... so no matter how heavy the plant gets, and wants to pull out of the pipe, the roots cant fit back through the small 2 inch pipe.

And since the pipe does a 60 deg bend, you dont have to worry about the plant falling back in the other way either because the stem wont go back through.

Those barrels... the lids come off...

im wondering if there is a way to attach 2 open lid barrels to eachother for all those guys whod like to lay them on their side, and use them as aero tubes.

Alright, Im done for the night


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 12, 2010)

travish413 said:


> Tree farmer
> Atomizer
> Fatman,
> 
> ...


Welcome back Travish
Congrats on reaching the 38 day milestone.. stick with it.


----------



## travish413 (Feb 12, 2010)

Thanks everybody!
And fatman you are right... I have unfortunatly been to a few of my close friends funerals due to opiates. Thats when you need to step back and take a good look at what you are doing... But anyway i am good now and feel better than i did when I was on them. I'll quit talking about this now bc its totally off the subject of the thread but just want to say hi and i am back 
Happy Growing


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 12, 2010)

Welcome back.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 13, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> _Just because you haven't seen this, doesn't mean it is isn't true. Google TAG and look for the 53 page journal from IC. *Pom-pom roots begin later than 8 weeks*_


Troller you haven't gone back to IC yet? Nobody here cares a bout IC, the TAG journal or your grow at IC. It is obvious you have no credibilty here so why are you jabbering your nonsence here. And your blue print is a definite turn off. Nobody cares what you write regardless of your trying to dress it up with color. It is merely ignorant gibberish.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 13, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> _I have read it 3 times, and have done my best to distill the essence into my IC journal, which is complete with weekly photo updates._
> 
> *We don't want to here about you IC journal, nor do we care what is in it. Do you see any of us trolling your IC journal. I thought not. None of us are childish ego maniacs with an inferiority complex so we do not need to do such inconsiderate childish trolling, and link postings to other forums.*
> 
> ...




*No accumulator with a high pressure system. Troll you definitely need to go back to IC and quit talking your nonsense here. *



*Your not gone yet?*


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 13, 2010)

The TAG thread promotes the Pod Racers Aero Technique (P.R.A.T) its essentially 53 pages of soakaponic information.

Your 8 week theory is utter crap  
Scientific fact: Fine root hairs grow at a rate of 1 micron per minute or just under 1/16" every 24 hours, * they grow from Day One given the right conditions *. They are short lived (a few days) and are constantly replaced.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 13, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> _I have read it 3 times, and have done my best to distill the essence into my IC journal, which is complete with weekly photo updates._
> 
> 
> _I know it's a difficult read, but there are certain TRUTHS there (like roots) and bacteria- your root chamber is humid right? and you do feed them right? But somehow (Magic perhaps) you don't have any bacteria? lol _
> ...


if what your doing makes you happy and you think you get better results then stick with what your doing. if youd like to contribute something based on real world evidence then show it. if your greater than 3 sec times works for you great and if you want to feed your bacteria great. just do us a favor and show us these magnificient speciments you have got using these methods. ive seen your roots and your plants and there isnt anything wrong with them except they arent any different than many lp aero grows ive done. im not knocking it but its just not the same results as youd get if you tweeked your system. like the gentleman said we dont come over to your journal and stir shit up why come over here. teach them ,you have a 11,000 hit journal isnt that enough. continue your work over there and then theyll be many more people who can experiment and they can all learn from your results. good luck hope things work out for ya. ill check in from time to time to see the final root shots.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 13, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> _Nope. _
> 
> _1. too expensive. _
> _2. too much work. _
> ...


Where is this thread? I can't seem to find it.
I hate to ask such a dumb question but then I'll go back to mainly lurking, I promise.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 13, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Where is this thread? I can't seem to find it.
> I hate to ask such a dumb question but then I'll go back to mainly lurking, I promise.


just go to icmag and type in TAG youll find the 53 page jibberish. and then type in petflora and youl find his wonderful journal filled with the cutting edge science of high pressure aeroponics. dont take my word for it everyone check it out and learn what you can. unfortunately ive learned nothing.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 13, 2010)

well i finally got my RO system up to par. added another 100GPD membrane and a small pump. wow what a difference. can make a gallon in under 5 minutes now and at a better ratio than 1:1. that means it will make one gallon with less than 1 gallon of waste. most are 3 gallons waste for one gallon RO water. the pump pressures the line to 85-95 constantly. this is going to save me alot of time and waste water. now i can use ro water like i want.

well fatman what do the best RO machines do for waste to RO ratios? im sure there somewhat better but for a home unit this is now satisfactory for my needs.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 13, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> just go to icmag and type in TAG youll find the 53 page jibberish. and then type in petflora and youl find his wonderful journal filled with the cutting edge science of high pressure aeroponics. dont take my word for it everyone check it out and learn what you can. unfortunately ive learned nothing.


 He has made it easier than that. Every thread he has posted to in this forum he has provided a direct link to his IC forum.  I guess he bases his worth and esteem on how many people view his journal. It is so important to his sense of worth that he must post links to it all over IC and also in other forums such as here.  Someone needs to teach him about self worth and self esteem rather than his always striving for outside affirmations from pot smoking strangers. 

Unless the mods have finally removed it his link is in this tread on his post a couple pages back. He prattles on excessively and about 80% is simply wrong and the other 20% is already widely known information. 

His plants are stretched out super thin and nearly lacking in foliage ie. just the opposite of what should be seen with a HP aero. His roots sytem looks like a low pressure aero systems roots. Not much there that reflects even a minor knowledge of HP aero growing.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 14, 2010)

anyone have a better idea for a way to locate a netpot on a vertical wall of a vertical chamber than my 45 deg pvc pipe idea a few pages back? Thanks


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 14, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> His plants are stretched out super thin and nearly lacking in foliage ie. just the opposite of what should be seen with a HP aero. His roots sytem looks like a low pressure aero systems roots. Not much there that reflects even a minor knowledge of HP aero growing.


By my reckoning his mist duration is 31x too long for the 135L chamber size. The 2 nozzles (in theory) should do 5.6ml in 3 seconds. In reality, it`ll be a lot more because he has no control over the pressure or run on. 
If he`s happy with his roots thats fine but they don`t have the right characteristics to be tagged  as hp aero.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 14, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> well i finally got my RO system up to par. added another 100GPD membrane and a small pump. wow what a difference. can make a gallon in under 5 minutes now and at a better ratio than 1:1. that means it will make one gallon with less than 1 gallon of waste. most are 3 gallons waste for one gallon RO water. the pump pressures the line to 85-95 constantly. this is going to save me alot of time and waste water. now i can use ro water like i want.
> 
> well fatman what do the best RO machines do for waste to RO ratios? im sure there somewhat better but for a home unit this is now satisfactory for my needs.


I think that is the first RO filter system made up of standard home sized membranes where three membranes are being used in a single system. They are set up in parallel and not a series I assume. (separate feed for each not one feeding the next). Don't want to insinuate you do not know what parallel and series means but many readers might not.

Most really large RO systems such as industrial or water treatment plant systems use filters in parallel feeding others in a series. Say five membranes waste water feeds three membranes whose waster feeds one membrane. Small commercial RO system with high pressure and a divertor valve uses 1.3 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of RO water. To lower my electrical input I use water at 80 to 85 degrees F. MY water is heated for free as it is heated by the buildings boiler system that provides heat and my heat is included in my rent. My systems pump water at 200 to 220 psi. The membranes are I believe 2.5" inches in diameter and about 21 inches long. Each membrane supplies a little over 450 gallons per day. 

I think you mean a ratio of 2:1. Two gallons used to produce one gallon of RO water or a gallon of waste per gallon of RO water produced. My commercial high pressure unit is 1.3:1 due to the diver tor valve. The diver tor valve takes up to (adjustable) 70% of the water from waste and diverts it back to the pump to be run back through the membrane along with fresh tap water. 

At about 75% diversion my TDS output starts to increase above water output without diversion. The two ways to increase your output from a membrane and lower the amount of waste water is to increase the pressure and or increase the inlet water temperature. If you have to pay for heating the water that is too expensive. What many laboratories do is to Fill a large container (such as a big trash can) with water and install a valve near the bottom to feed your RO filter pump. Let the water warm to room temp. Use a second barrel for finished RO water. Pump the warm water through your RO filter and drain the waste water back into the feed barrel. Feed the RO water into the second barrel. 

Run the pump until you have used up to 70% of the water from the first barrel. Turn off pump and top first barrel off with fresh tap water and let warm to room temp. The first barrel can usually be topped off at least four times before your fished RO water output starts increasing TDS beyond a few ppm. Once this start just dump the 20% of the water left in the barrel and use all fresh tao water. This will bring your waste to RO water ratio up to about what a commercial RO filter gets for a ratio.

RO membranes are designed to remove up to 2000 ppm of TDS at the same rejection efficiency as lower levels of TDS. At levels higher than that the rejection efficiency drops and the output TDS increases. I believe the manufacturers fudge their numbers though as their standard recommendation is to use a water softener if your water has a TDS higher than 1200 ppm. Retailers drop that number even lower.

One could just reuse and top off until the TDS output increases and then check the feed water ppm to determine at what ppm there system reaches that diminishing return point.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 14, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I think that is the first RO filter system made up of standard home sized membranes where three membranes are being used in a single system. They are set up in parallel and not a series I assume. (separate feed for each not one feeding the next). Don't want to insinuate you do not know what parallel and series means but many readers might not.
> 
> Most really large RO systems such as industrial or water treatment plant systems use filters in parallel feeding others in a series. Say five membranes waste water feeds three membranes whose waster feeds one membrane. Small commercial RO system with high pressure and a divertor valve uses 1.3 gallons of water to make 1 gallon of RO water. To lower my electrical input I use water at 80 to 85 degrees F. MY water is heated for free as it is heated by the buildings boiler system that provides heat and my heat is included in my rent. My systems pump water at 200 to 220 psi. The membranes are I believe 2.5" inches in diameter and about 21 inches long. Each membrane supplies a little over 450 gallons per day.
> 
> ...


they are hooked in series i believe its called.
pump sends water to first membrane input. the waste from the first membrane runs to the input of the second membrane and the waste from the second membrane runs to the third membrane input. water goes in the first membrane at 250ppm( well water)and comes out final waste line going to the drain at 450ppm. water is very cold but dont have a free source of heat.

im not sure on the ratio thing. what i meant was i put 2 one gallon jugs side by side and dropped the waste line in one jug and the output line from all three membranes into the second jug. started the pump and watched which filled first. the pure RO water filled in just around 5 minutes and the waste water jug filled 20 seconds later. so from 2 gallons of well water i got one gallon of RO water and 1 gallon of waste water. i guess that is 2.1 ratio then.

i asked if i could put another piggyback membrane on (making 4 membranes)and the guy said three was the most . although he told me the pump would only pump the system up to 75-85psi and it will boost it over a 100psi if i didnt have the ball valve leading to the first membrane closed alittle.
the reason i did that (closed the ball valve alittle)was he told me the RO system that i bought from them years ago and just added the other membranes as time went by was only rated to 100 psi. now it stays in the 85-95psi range depending on where the accumulator pressure feeding it is.

the membranes are 100gpd so if i can get 1 gallon every 5 minutes im getting 288 gallons aday. not to far off the 300 total they are rated for.

seems to me if i have to restrict the feed to the system why not add another membrane. and seeing the final ppm off the third membrane is only 450ppm i would think i could add another one. im going to call and find out after seeing the numbers. 

i sure am enjoying watching the tank fill up in about a hr instead of waiting all day like i use too..


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 14, 2010)

which ro system did you get? ive seen links to some great deals on them for around 100 bucks in the best deals thread. you get one of those or no?


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 14, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> which ro system did you get? ive seen links to some great deals on them for around 100 bucks in the best deals thread. you get one of those or no?


ive had the basic one membrane system for years. added a second membrane to the original system a year ago and finally now added the 3rd membrane and pump. so its been around 3 years since i bought it. it was a couple hundred back then. typical 3 stage RO system. thier way cheaper now i see. now looking back the pump is what really can turn a basic house RO into a decent machine unless you have a high main water pressure line to begin with.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 16, 2010)

2 ?'s...

first, does the DRIP STORE take back misters if the mister doesnt work? I have a collection of several misters that dont even have a hole in the black nipple... so they dont spray... (lame question, dont bother answering it, ill call them tomorrow)

second... im trying to cojoin 2 tubs with a large flow hose. Right now, my best idea is with 2x 1 inch ID hoses, and 2 nipple bulkhead fittings to put on each tub.... is there a way that i could use a larger single pvc pipe... like a 2 or 3 inch pipe... and how would i sandwich the pipe to the walls of the tubs so that the pipe and the tubs dont leak? I havent figured out a way to do it, but i thought maybe one of you guys know the answer already.


Thanks


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 16, 2010)

3 qustions... i lied...

im doing things the fatman style where there is a solenoid , that when open, allows the flow to just recycle back to the main res, and when closed, forces flow to the sprayers...

i noticed that even when its open, it still gives resistance.... this solenoid is plastic... so i like it because no leaching.

I have another solenoid that is brass, and is used, so perhaps all the leaching is done??? anyway, when its open, theres no resistance... but it says for natural gas on it. Its super heavy and high quality. 

ive got 4 of the plastic ones bc i bought them all together, and 2 of the brass ones.

My other idea is to maybe install a second plastic one on the main feed line, so that when they both open, maybe it will allow enough flow to silence the misters? I doubt it tho because its like its a spring in there or something... it takes pressure to get the thing open.. even when its open.

thanks in advance


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 16, 2010)

Tank connectors or bulkhead fittings for koi pond filters would sort the tub joining issue, you can get them for upto 4" pipe.
If the nozzle isn`t fit for purpose they should accept returns, maybe they sent you some blanking/blind nozzles (no holes) by mistake. The gas valve (without the spring assisted closure) would be better if its suitable for use with water, a small amount of brass shouldn`t hurt anything.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 17, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Tank connectors or bulkhead fittings for koi pond filters would sort the tub joining issue, you can get them for upto 4" pipe.
> If the nozzle isn`t fit for purpose they should accept returns, maybe they sent you some blanking/blind nozzles (no holes) by mistake. The gas valve (without the spring assisted closure) would be better if its suitable for use with water, a small amount of brass shouldn`t hurt anything.


 
sweet, where do i get those fittings? is there a web site? ill look around. update... i found them... i feel like im in the twilight zone... i swear i looked the other day and couldnt find anything over an inch... now i can find them no problem... oh well, thanks for your help 

the solenoid... yeah, i dont know if nat gas ones can be used for water. Fatman prob knows.

you ever going to help me with my timer atom-ant? 

I need one that stays on for a while, and then just shuts off for a few seconds. the off is when it will cause the solenoid to slam shut and sprayers to come on.

let me know, thanks boss


----------



## squarepush3r (Feb 17, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> sweet, where do i get those fittings? is there a web site? ill look around. update... i found them... i feel like im in the twilight zone... i swear i looked the other day and couldnt find anything over an inch... now i can find them no problem... oh well, thanks for your help
> 
> the solenoid... yeah, i dont know if nat gas ones can be used for water. Fatman prob knows.
> 
> ...


search "Uni Seals"


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 17, 2010)

squarepush3r said:


> search "Uni Seals"


About the cheapest place I know for uniseals is Aquatic Eco-Systems:

Here is their uniseal page;

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/1617/Uniseals/uniseals/0


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 17, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> sweet, where do i get those fittings? is there a web site? ill look around. update... i found them... i feel like im in the twilight zone... i swear i looked the other day and couldnt find anything over an inch... now i can find them no problem... oh well, thanks for your help
> 
> the solenoid... yeah, i dont know if nat gas ones can be used for water. Fatman prob knows.
> 
> ...


Most solenoid valves are for gas, liquid and air. 

All the research on leaching I have ever are done in plumbing of a fully pressurized plumbing system where the water is not used for over 10 to 12 hours but the lines remain pressurized during this full time. So the copper leaching from the brass valve is not eally an issue as the majority of the time the water will be running through the valve. 

The issue is pitting and corrosion due to the heavy salt content of the water. Thankfully with a better droplet size you will get better nutrient uptake so you can run a fairly low EC. 

A large plastic solenoid valve would work best but even at salvage price they are pretty expensive. You also need to look at the orifice size of any valve rather than just the inlet and outlet pipe size. Many solenoids have an orifice size a full pipe size smaller than the inlet and outlet pipes. This allows for easier valve action and seating. ie this means a 3/4 inch pipe usually has a 1/2 inch orifice (interior throat diameter) which can mean that a 1" has a 3/4" orifice.

As for good large plastic solenoid valve prices. I have bought three 3/4 inch Hayward valves in the last month for an average price of $65 plus shipping. I have bought a couple Hayward 1/2 inch valves. One for $25 plus shipping and one for $50 plus shipping. Those are exceptionally good prices as retail your talking about prices like $300 for the 1/2" and $400 for the 3/4". I had to pay $100 for a 1" and they usually retail for about $450. 

Plastomatics are even more expensive as they are seldom offered by individuals or anyone but one retailer that sells through eBay. Hayward's are true union valves and the Plastomatics just come with threaded taps.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 17, 2010)

You can connect the output of a standard cycle timer to the coil of a double pole double throw (dpdt) relay. 
Wire the solenoid to the normally closed relay contacts (they connect when no power is on the coil)
Timer on (1 second) = solenoid off, timer off (5 mins etc) = solenoid on.
Washing machine solenoids are the cheapest if you can find a scrap washing machine


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 17, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> You can connect the output of a standard cycle timer to the coil of a double pole double throw (dpdt) relay.
> Wire the solenoid to the normally closed relay contacts (they connect when no power is on the coil)
> Timer on (1 second) = solenoid off, timer off (5 mins etc) = solenoid on.
> Washing machine solenoids are the cheapest if you can find a scrap washing machine


 
ive got plenty of solenoids for now... so no worries there...



so this relay stuff??? is a foreign language to me at the moment...

what now?

can i just pay you and you send me one? lol


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 17, 2010)

All you need is a dpdt relay with a coil voltage that matches your timer output (probably 120v), you won` t have any trouble finding one.
The dpdt relay has 8 connections, 2 for the coil, 2 common, 2 n/o and 2 n/c. The timer output goes to the coil connections, mains power + and - to the commons (assuming the solenoid runs on the mains) and the solenoid wires to the 2 n/c connections.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 17, 2010)

relays arent hard to figure out. it is just like a light switch. only instead of turning the switch on by flipping a lever you turn the switch on by appying a voltage to it. heres a link to relays. these work great and are cheap. just find one from the pages that has the voltage you need. these are surplus and are way cheaper than buying new ones and have worked for me for years.
they have all kinds of cool stuff a person can use at dirt cheap prices if you use your imagination.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/category/500/Relays/1.html


----------



## clydefrog (Feb 17, 2010)

here's a laymans diagram if you want to save even more...


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 17, 2010)

I betcha if he wasn't stoned he got stoned after reading that. I know what it said and I still had to read it twice, just to make sure that all that info really fit into just two sentences.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 17, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I betcha if he wasn't stoned he got stoned after reading that. I know what it said and I still had to read it twice, just to make sure that all that info really fit into just two sentences.


lol! i guess it only makes sense if you already know ,but yea i see your point.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 17, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> here's a laymans diagram if you want to save even more...


Layman's diagram.. You and atomizer kill me. Now I am a bit more aware as to why people at times tell me to dummy it down. The understanding electronic circuitry is and electrical engineering are not very commonly understood fields. It would be interesting to know just how many people comprehend symbols on electronic circuitry diagrams. My guess is that likely less than 5% of viewers to this forum comprehend anything on the layman's terms schematic. Relay, relay coil, resistors, diode, capacitor, line loads, resistance values, voltage and charge symbols. Yep-per, all layman's stuff.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 17, 2010)

I have an associates degree in electronics, not that it means much.

It isn't common though you're right.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 17, 2010)

The very word Kirchoff still gives me chills and that was many years ago that I did two semesters of physics and my one required circuitry course when working towards my first engineering degree. For me, for some reason, electronics is all work and no fun. I am glad their are people who find it easy and enjoyable as that means I do not need to get that involved with it. My introduction to differential equations was due to circuitry. Ugh, such memories.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 18, 2010)

Me neither, the challenge of learning it was fun but once I was done I couldn't wait to get into something else.

Ended up in computer networking.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 18, 2010)

yeah, im more of a big picture physics and design guy. Business, film, mechanical engineering are what my degrees are in.

now growing plants 

thanks for all those amazing diagrams guys... you did indeed make me feel dumb and im going to study up on this stuff, ive found a definite void in my intelligence.

theres only so many hours in a day, and between building new setups, and my other day job, and also getting my huge web site off the ground... its seems like next thing you know its 2am, and youve still got stuff to do.

yes, im on 120 v, im using the cap timers. 

If you guys get some extra time, and want to shoot me a link to the exact part number on that relay page that tree farmer linked.. i wouldnt complain at all


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 18, 2010)

This one would work ok
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS/-/1.html

Clydefrogs schematic is a bit too basic, it needs a few more components otherwise the timing could vary. It would be fine for anything non critical where a second or two either way is tolerable.

Fatman, the fun is in building something that does the same job for 10% of the price. I made a twin cycle timer for the vertical that cost the equivalent of $15.67. Believe it or not, the damned hardware (a plastic box, control knobs etc) made up over half the total cost


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 18, 2010)

hey fatman,... or anyone who mixes their own nutes...

i know you said that the initial investment of getting all the nutes is kind of heafty, 

instead of me going out and buying a bunch of stuff that i dont know if its the best or not...

i was wondering if you could sell me some small portions of all the powdered nutes to get me through a grow, and ill send you whatever money you think is fair.

If its too big of a hassle, thats fine, no problems, but i just figured it was worth an ask.

Thanks

mixing my own nutes and understanding whats going on and what helps plants and what not... this is the next area i want to learn about.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 18, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> hey fatman,... or anyone who mixes their own nutes...
> 
> i know you said that the initial investment of getting all the nutes is kind of heafty,
> 
> ...


Me too... We're on the same path. 

I'd split an order with you if I could, but I won't be able to for at least one or two months.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 18, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> This one would work ok
> http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS/-/1.html
> 
> Clydefrogs schematic is a bit too basic, it needs a few more components otherwise the timing could vary. It would be fine for anything non critical where a second or two either way is tolerable.
> ...


thats the exact one sitting inside my 2 timer box that switches between night and day cycles. a little overkill for just swtching the timer load of 24vac but its what i had and for the price you cant complain. i also liked it cause it had the 2 little feet to mount it inside the box.

atomizer did you make a day- night rig or the dual tmer for another purpose.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 18, 2010)

well, i might need more help with relays etc...

i want to install a couple of these float switches

http://cgi.ebay.com/Liquid-Water-Level-Sensor-Right-Angle-Float-Switch_W0QQitemZ350317768951QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item519090f0f7

and they seem to be rated very low on amps and voltage...

First, can they be hooked directly to a 120v solenoid, to open when water levels get to a certain height, and close when they to the other hight?

what im trying to do is have a big res with deep water in it.

And have it gravity feed to a bunch of little chambers that are all in series connected with hoses, and have DWC in the bottom few inches of each one....

but have a pump in the last chamber, that forces water back to the main res.... which will be more than a few inches deep, more like a couple feet.

That pump will ALWAYS be on...

meanwhile, i will use gravity, and my normally closed solenoids to feed the chambers when they start to get low due to the pump emptying them all out

So the solenoids need to open when the water levels get too low, and then close when water levels start to get too high.

Actually, i dont need the reverse power relays linked by atomizer for this situation, i can simply flip that float swtich upside down, or visa versa to coincide with the solenoids opening/closing..

but... my question still remains...

will a 120v solenoid adapt to that switch, or will i have to add yet another kind of relay, etc, to allow the big currents to go to the solenoid, and only a small current to go to the float sensor linked?

or... is there a cheap float sensor like the one ive linked that carries more juice... i cant find them, and if i do, they are super expensive.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 18, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> thats the exact one sitting inside my 2 timer box that switches between night and day cycles. a little overkill for just swtching the timer load of 24vac but its what i had and for the price you cant complain. i also liked it cause it had the 2 little feet to mount it inside the box.
> 
> atomizer did you make a day- night rig or the dual tmer for another purpose.


Hi TF
It doesn`t hurt to have extra switching capacity if the price is right. Another thing is they generally quote the resistive load capacity, using an inductive load will derate the capacity by 60% 
I made the twin timer for the vertical, one timer controls the mist solenoid and the other controls intermittant rotation of the cylinder (turning it 5 degrees every 6 minutes for example). The rotation isn`t needed at night but its no problem to add another timer for the night cycles.

Sherryberry,
I wouldn`t want mains power anywhere near water let alone submerged. You can use the float switches with low voltage and use it to switch a higher voltage via a relay.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 19, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Sherryberry,
> I wouldn`t want mains power anywhere near water let alone submerged. You can use the float switches with low voltage and use it to switch a higher voltage via a relay.


haha, which relay do i need to buy now?

i bought a few of those others you linked since they were so cheap.

thanks guys for all your help


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 19, 2010)

Any type as long as the coil voltage matches the voltage your putting through the float switches. I prefer to use a dpdt type as they give you more options, like switching two seperate circuits at different voltages.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 19, 2010)

I thought about a hybrid system also sherriberry. But over and over we keep hearing in this thread how negative it is to have the roots laying in any water.
How's that supposed to work out? From what I can tell the plants will really be only using the most efficient feeding and the other may only be useful in controlling the shape of the plant... My thoughts, completely guessing...


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 19, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> I thought about a hybrid system also sherriberry. But over and over we keep hearing in this thread how negative it is to have the roots laying in any water.
> How's that supposed to work out? From what I can tell the plants will really be only using the most efficient feeding and the other may only be useful in controlling the shape of the plant... My thoughts, completely guessing...


in a hybred system there is no reason you cant have the bottom roots in water as long as the water oxygenation is dealt with. in a pure aero application you want to keep the floor roots out of any runoff cause if not the system will have to be run(misting cycle) to take those roots that are laying in solution into account. meaning you will have to mist in such a way as not to over saturate the chamber cause the moisture level will build up and keep the floor roots wet always which is not ideal. this will be seen as a browning of the floor roots as the roots that are above stay nice and white.

a well designed hybred system may work as well but not sure exactly how to design it so that the upper roots could be sprayed and remain seperated from the lower roots while the lower would have access to water or light nute levels. the only way to really know is if somebody tried it. and i have never seen anyone try a hp aero with some kind of RDWC or maybe even ebb and flow for the bottom roots. lp sprayers up top and dwc we all have seen. this is what most call aero but to me its just NFT. works great did it many times but imho its not much different from the NFT principle.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 19, 2010)

its possible... and long story short, sure you are losing out on the bottom 3 inches NOT being aero, and thus being LESS efficient...

but you have a lot of perks.

First perk is, if power goes out... your plants live... for days.

Second is.. if a sprayer clogs... your plants live... for days.

Third perk is... if you overspray... that left over water doesnt sit on the floor of the chamber and warm up and start diseases.

I keep the res outside the air tight grow room.

The tubs are in the room obviously, and the plants are growing in the tubs.

Res stays cool.

Lets say theres 5 tubs with plants in them in the room...

you simply connect them in series... and have a sump pump in the middle tub.

THis pump pumps to the main res, and keeps the main res's level high.

The water level in the 5 plant tubs never exceeds 3 inches lets say.

The way you do this is simply have a solenoid or 2 that lead back to the 2 end tubs on each end of the lineup of tubs.

Since the main res's level is much much higher, gravity will always bring fluid from the res to the 2 end tubs when the solenoids open.

A float switch set at 3 inches high in a tub, coincides with a solenoid that LETS water flow to the tubs IF the water level drops below 3 inches.

The sump pump is always on, UNLESS its float switch senses thigns get below 2 inches.

So the sump pumps to the main res, and the main res gravity spills back to the end tubs...

the end tubs level raises, and thus the connecting hoses from tub to tub located at less than an inch up from the ground...

water gravity feeds back to the center tub...

where the sump pump is.

i run will run a float sensor in the 2 end tubs and have 2 seperate pipes and solenoids lead to the end tubs from the main res.

Water dwc water is always moving.

Meanwhile...

your sprayer pump is down at ground level next to your main res, and so its always primed....

it has yet another solenoid, and its fatman style, where the solenoid is the path back to the main res, and the sprayers in the tubs are the other path...

when its open, fluid just circulates in the main res... when it closes, fluid goes to the sprayers in the tubs instead.

All pipes that come to the main res, from the sump or from the sprayer , waterfall back through a deisel catch bag filter, so your catching any debris before it goes to the main res.

Then you run a finer filter in only your sprayer line, that feeds to the sprayers...

so its pre filtered, and the finer filtered before it goes through the nozzels so it doesnt clog them up too often.

And since theres dwc... if they clog... it'sall good 


2 things... first is i forgot to mention there will be an air stone in every res.

This air pump is the only thing that NEEDS to be attached to battery backup.

I use ALL normally CLOSE solenoids... that way the main res doenst flood the 5 tubs if the power goes out.

I also stated above that the sump pump shuts off IF the the float sensor senses water levels too low...

a better way of doing this is prob to keep the sump always going, and have a solenoid that opens and lets the water spill right back down into that center tub the sump is in... that way the pump isnt turning on and off constantly...

however... its important to note that i use a small sump, so the flow isnt TOO rediculous... and i have 2 large diameter pipes go to each of the 2 tubs at the end of each line from the main res....

so... the gravity feed pipes from the main res SHOULD be large enough in diameter to OUTRUN the spump pupms ability to empty out the center tub...

and then as water levels in the 5 tubs rise, the solenoids in the gravity lines from the res, close... and let the sump catch up and lower the 5 tubs.

so, technically the only time the middle tub should get LOW is if there is a clog somewhere...

so in addition to having the solenoid from the sump back to the res open, dumping water right back into the same tub that the sump is in, not letting it run dry...

and a buzzer could be attached to that 2 inch low level float sensor as well, so you know to go check your tub to tub lines for clogs.




so ive got the ideas, but not all the know how... im going to attempt to figure out how to hook up these float level sensors to the solenoids, AND hook one up to the buzzer.

4 solenoids total. All nomally closed.

2 for the gravity lines back to the the 2 end tubs

1 for the sprayer pump to allow water to recycle while sprayers arent spraying

1 for the sump pump, to allow the water to fall back down in the same tub, and not let the level lower anymore, running the pump dry.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 19, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Any type as long as the coil voltage matches the voltage your putting through the float switches. I prefer to use a dpdt type as they give you more options, like switching two seperate circuits at different voltages.


 
i really am a cave man when it comes to this stuff....

so i assume on my rverse polarity setup, the solenoid will still need power, so you hook up 2 different power sources to the relay, and when one shuts off, the other go ahead and powers on the solenoid?

then, on the second setup, with the float switches...

i assume im going to have to get some sort of 12v battery or something to send a signal through the float switch and to the relay?

if theres a tutorial on this shit so i dont have to bother you guys, let me know, lol

i have 3 of those dpdt ones you linked ordered.

im going to have 3 float switches, and also need a relay for the reverse timers...

so im guessing im going to have to order a couple more of these relays then...


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 19, 2010)

Oh yea, I see, I hadn't considered the redundancy but I've already heard fatman say how even if power goes out in his aero system he has pressure in the tank enough to already have that backup for days I think...

And aren't they using more than one spray head to avoid one clogging?

At any rate I think you are on to something. 

How about no solenoid only pump power keeping the level at 3" and when the power goes out the res is only large enough to fill the tubs so the aero roots don't go dry? Or a double res system that holds more water but achieves the same goal, where only the smaller res will dump back into the tubs with an outage?


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 19, 2010)

If you are running 12v dc through the float switches you need a relay with a 12v dc coil. 
Dwc wont safeguard your aero roots against power outages..they will be doomed. Its better to use a 12v dc backup pump, timer and solenoid like TF has or simply build a 12v system and run it on a transformer. Add a $1.75 relay to switch from the transformer to a deep cycle battery when the mains power fails. 
You could even park a small solar panel in the growroom or outside to trickle charge the battery


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 19, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> If you are running 12v dc through the float switches you need a relay with a 12v dc coil.


 
like i said, im the one asking you, lol

i dont know what i need

I linked those float switches that im buying, and i have 3 of the dpdt relays you guys linked me to, on order already

so im asking you, what else do i need? I cant imagine the relay can give a solenoid power when it does not recieve power ... so theres gotta be antoher hot wire coming in right?

and also, im asking, with those switches, what relay and power source do i need?

thanks


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 19, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> If you are running 12v dc through the float switches you need a relay with a 12v dc coil.
> Dwc wont safeguard your aero roots against power outages..they will be doomed. Its better to use a 12v dc backup pump, timer and solenoid like TF has or simply build a 12v system and run it on a transformer. Add a $1.75 relay to switch from the transformer to a deep cycle battery when the mains power fails.
> You could even park a small solar panel in the growroom or outside to trickle charge the battery


Could you please elaborate on this part. The difference in roots and why they can't survive in dwc?


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 19, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Oh yea, I see, I hadn't considered the redundancy but I've already heard fatman say how even if power goes out in his aero system he has pressure in the tank enough to already have that backup for days I think...
> 
> And aren't they using more than one spray head to avoid one clogging?
> 
> ...


honestly, my brain cant solve that problem... having the double res... i considered doing it that way in the begining, but it came out to be more complex i think


As far as only having enough water in the main res to not flood the 5 tubs... honestly, i dont, and youre right, you could do it that way.

The tubs im using at like 44gal or something

so even if i had a 100gal res, that coudnt flood them.

i was just trying to get fancy i guess and keep the water moving as fast as possible...

either way, a person would still have to have a low level float sensor for their sump pump in the middle tub... because theres no way that you are going to magically always have the return gravity flow match the sump pumps flow back to the main res.

so ones gotta be faster than the other ... thats reality.

so if the gravity feed from the res to the tubs is too high, the tubs will be higher than 3 inches all the time

and if the sump pumps rate of pumping back to the res is higher... then eventually the tubs will go dry

so one way or another, you need at least one float sensor to govern the faster of the 2 flows...

so i think the obvious choice is to limit just the sump pump, with a low level sensor, and that way every time the middle tub goes too low, the solenoid opens, and the sump pump just dumps the water where its sucking it from.. back into that middle tub, so that the water level doesnt fall anymore.

and tht would give the gravity feed lines time to catch up.

I guess youre right... one wouldnt need the 2 solenoids on the 2 gravity feed lines...

i got too fancy.

so, the only 2 solenoids you need are

1 on the sprayer pump to recycle the water back

and 1 on the sump pump to recycle the water back to the middle tub when levels get too low.

either way... im still a caveman when it comes to this relay stuff.

got the 3 on order, and have no clue what to do next, or what other parts, or power sources i will need.

so im down to 2 solenoids being used, 2 relays being used, 1 timer, and 1 float sensor.

good call on hitting me with the simpler setup, thanks bro


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 19, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Could you please elaborate on this part. The difference in roots and why they can't survive in dwc?


 
i think hes saying that the fine hairs will not survive up high...

the main core roots going down to the water will probably, but not all the fine roots

im no expert on this... but id say even the fine roots would last a little while as long as the plant has access to water, plants can move moisture around somwhat within the plant...

but i do see his point, the longer periods, you would loose your fine hair roots.




heres the thing tho...

its all tradeoffs right now... and for a guy like me just entering this hp world... and not biting off more than i can chew..

right now ive spent 25 bucks on a new refurbished 1/4 hp sump pump off ebay.... and ive got a backup..

so thats 50 bucks.

Then i got one of those 1 inch clearwater pumps off harborfreight, good for huge flows, and around 35psi according to my little psi meter i attached to my system..... that was 30 bucks

and 70 cent 60-80 micron beige misters linked earleir in this thread, from the drip store.

and a bunch of 20 dollar tubs,

a bunch of 1 inch bulkhead fittings, and a bunch of 1 inch hose

no accumulator tanks or expensive nozzles.

so my pump im using... isnt going to run long on battery backup... i know this, it sucks too much juice.

so for that reason, if the power goes out... we need a simple solution.

Further... since im not running 90+psi, my root hairs... not going to be fine like his...

so the odds of my roots dying off.. i still think arent as doom and gloom as he thinks.

So thats my reasoning...

and eventually, can i upgrade to better nozzles and accumulator tanks and pumps...

sure... 

but are we ahead of 99% of the rest of the grow world as far as sophisitcated root absorbing setups go... plus a simple way to keep our plants alive if theres a big power outgage... 

yes we are.

Theres maybe 4 guys in this forum who have this setup beat.

and considering this setup can be built for under a few hundred bucks and hold a ton of plants...

i think its a no brainer.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 20, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so im asking you, what else do i need? I cant imagine the relay can give a solenoid power when it does not recieve power ... so theres gotta be another hot wire coming in right?
> 
> and also, im asking, with those switches, what relay and power source do i need?
> 
> thanks


The mains power (or whatever voltage the solenoids, pumps will use) is connected to the relays "common" contacts.
When the coil is not powered up the commons connect to the normally closed (n/c) contacts.
When the coil is powered the commons connect to the normally open (n/o) contacts.

You connect the solenoid or pump to either the n/o or nc contacts depending on whether you want them to run when the coil is powered or not powered.

The pic attached (mains to battery switching) has the com, n/o and n/c contacts marked. The coil is powered.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 20, 2010)

nice

so for the float sensors, how do i wire those into play? What power source SHOULD i use for those?


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 20, 2010)

heres a pic of what im doing just incase someone is completely lost


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 20, 2010)

That helps a lot, just have to digest it 
What prevents the water level in the tubs from being higher than 3"? 
I guess the volume of the res barrel would be equally spread between all the tubs until the water level reached equilibrum?


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 20, 2010)

Not necessarily

You see, there are 2 flow rates, that of your sump pump to your res, and that of your gravity lines to your tubs.

Gravity lines are not infinite in diameter... and thus, there is a max rate of flow that will occur.

Its simple trial and error of putting on a smaller orfice on the 2 pipes that gravity feed to the tubs

Now, if power goes out, i understand what you are saying... then water level will rise becuase the sump pump cant outrun the gravity feed lines flow rates.


my diagram is showing the tubs from the thin side, keep in mind, these are the giant rubbermaids that are 44 gallons.

x5, thats over 200 gallons.

My res will be 100 gallons, if that...

so understand... there will be no flooding.

Ive thought about getting fancy and keeping the water level at 3 inches if the power goes out...

but why?

let it rise and protect all those little aero roots that... other people ... say will surely die.

the system has built in safeties that i dont think are apparent at first glance.

Majority of roots go under bubbled water if power goes out


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 20, 2010)

it is important to understand that sump pump's flow MUST BE MADE GREATER than the gravity line flow.

This means EVENTUALLY the tubs will always run dry.

This is where the float level switch comes in..>

that can either KILL the sump pump to let the gravity lines catch up, and fill the tubs some more

OR

float level switch can open the solenoid, allowing the water to simply fall right back into the middle tub, and thus, no water is shot back to the Main res, and thus, tubs levels start to raise up while solenoid is open...

until float switch raises again, and then solenoid closes, and water starts going to the main res once again... until the sump eventually outruns flow rates of gravity lines... again.

Plus... if there is a CLOG in any of the gravity lines, the sump doesnt burn itself out... water in middle tub gets low... it stops pumping water to the main res.

Its a pimp ass design, i know


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 20, 2010)

hypothetically, you could have a 300 gallon res... and have it pretty much full...

And if power went out, 200 of that 300 gallons would go into the tubs and fill them all the way, and the res itself would still hold some of the water... maybe 100 gal or so... depends on the width of the res.

but... just making a point... the sysetm will hold a lot of water before flooding.

Now understand... you dont have to limit yoruself to 5 tubs...

you could do 3... or you could do 11

Its all the same 

just put the sump in the middle tub, and all flows through all tubs will be equal and will occur as gravity does its job.

This system is modular for sure.. and these are plug and play tubs....

SImply put a kork stopper in the 2 hoses that connect each tub when you want to remove a tub.

And when you do remove a tub, draining it is cake... you just tilt it, and then lift it above the 3 inch mark... and its going to drain into the other tubs...

you just gotta put the gravity feed line from the res into another tub so that it quits filling the one you are going to remove.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok my man, can't wait to see what happens with that setup. 

It would be really beneficial to see what happens as your setup progresses and you transition to hp aero on it, save me from testing the same things.
Honestly though isn't rdwc dd style more productive than lp aero by a good margin? I think you need hp aero and rdwc to make it really worth while.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 20, 2010)

ok, as most submersible pumps with floating switches "make" when the water level falls, i`ll assume the floatswitch does the same thing. So when the water level drops below 3", the pump has to switch off. Attached pic shows the relay and floatswitch wiring. 
If you use a (normally closed) solenoid, it will have to switch on when the level drops..so you will need to connect that to the n/o relay contacts instead (the unused ones in the pic) to power it up and open the valve.
The relay needs to be a 12v dc coil DPDT with contacts rated for at least 120V ac.

Your misting solenoid would be wired the same as per the pump diagram, except that relay will use a 120v ac coil. Your cycle timer connects to the coil terminals. When the timer is on its `pause` cycle (ie off lol) the solenoid has power (open to res). When the timer is `on`, the relay disconnects the power and the solenoid closes..diverting flow to the misters


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 20, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Ok my man, can't wait to see what happens with that setup.
> 
> It would be really beneficial to see what happens as your setup progresses and you transition to hp aero on it, save me from testing the same things.
> Honestly though isn't rdwc dd style more productive than lp aero by a good margin? I think you need hp aero and rdwc to make it really worth while.


 
what a lot of people dont understand, even hp aero guys dont understand...

is surface area and total volume of roots.

in the dd bucket system...

if he just had ONLY water, and NO HYDROTON, then his system would suck.

The hydroton is a medium for the roots to branch out through, and contrary to popular belief, there are fine fuzzy hairs on those roots, for as the hydroton doesnt move around, the paths that the water take down through it remain somwhat constant from the drippers being in the same spot...

so the roots adapt quickly to the setup...

frankly... i dont want to f$&@ with hydroton when i can get comparable results with mp sprayers.

The other key to this is to understand... one can grow 8 - 20 plants sog style per each of these tubs...

or they could grow a couple trees per tub...

cramming the plants up top is not a problem...

the key is to have as much root matter (surface area and volume) as possible

by putting 8 plants per tub... its a guarantee the tub will be FULL of roots when its all said and done...

that being what it is... i dont see how the potential yeilds of those 8 couldnt surpass DD's, because there is more root matter... period.

i have height restrictions right now too, so huge trees is impossible for me either way.

or if you wanted to do 2 big trees per tub, still more root matter per tub than doubled's... were using a tub twice the size

do i think this will beat dd's?

not off the bat... you gotta get good at everything else too first.. nutes, spray times, etc.

so thats my 2 cents on the whole thing

Technically... if you wanted to forget about sprayers and take DD's sysetm head on...

buy those damn blue bio balls in super bulk from alibaba.com, and FILL the tubs with those, and put 8 ft cut sections laser cut aeration hoses in each tub and ring them around the top, andstill have the water moving through the bottom as in my setup...

but just make sure... you use large enough connector pipes from tub to tub so that it becomes impossible for clogs, because goodluck figuring that out with a million blue balls in there.

If i had the money for the blue balls, id actually do a head to head test against mp... and im almost positive the blue balls would win.... the roots just have more dense structure in that kind of stuff it seems like.




atomizer...

do i need to by a 12v relay in addition to the 120's that i bought?

that way i can hook up some sort of a relay to that level switch since it says the max load it will take is only 100v?

thanks for all your help bro, i really do appreciate it


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 20, 2010)

ps, earlier we were all talking about those big barells, that are 55gal plastic drums, and doing a possible vertical chamber...

i just want to point out that if you did do vertical chambers, its important to realize this setup would be key in doing them... only instead of having all the chambers in a straight line, you have them in a loop, and you still put the sump pump in the one in the middle, and have 2 feed lines to to the 2 tubs on the opposite side of the circle and then make their flow come around from each side to the middle tub.

obviously there would be sprayers in there as well, and you could do the "wall of green", and have plants on 3 levels up the walls of the plastic drums.

im not going to do that now, but maybe one of these days, we will see how this goes first


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 20, 2010)

Ok you know you're stuff... I had already planned on using the bio balls in my setup but only as a replacement for the hydroton in the netpot. I'm aware of what you're talking about there.

I couldn't imagine ever using them in the whole tubs thought even if that worked best, because of the mess of cleanup.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 20, 2010)

Thats the reason for having a 12v dc coil relay, the other is the floatswitch is in the water and 12v dc won`t kill you  
The floatswitch uses 12v dc to energise the relay coil and the relay coil then switches relay contacts with the mains voltage. The pump/floatswitch circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 12v dc coil and the cycle timer/solenoid circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 120v ac coil.

I looked on TF`s relay website and this relay (DPDT 12vdc coil, [email protected]) should do the job,
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-530/12VDC-DPDT-RELAY/1.html
Its designed for pcb mounting so you`ll need to solder some wires onto the pins but thats no biggy.


----------



## clydefrog (Feb 20, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> This one would work ok
> http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/RLY-453/120-VAC-RELAY-DPDT-12-AMPS/-/1.html
> 
> Clydefrogs schematic is a bit too basic, it needs a few more components otherwise the timing could vary. It would be fine for anything non critical where a second or two either way is tolerable.


now thats true i reckon...ive never actually tried to use a 555 setup for anything as critical as half-second intervals...i guess you could add an x10 to make it more sensitive but the 555 is still going to probably fluctuate a bit over time.

for a 12v backup tho its a fun project.


----------



## clydefrog (Feb 20, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> I need one that stays on for a while, and then just shuts off for a few seconds. the off is when it will cause the solenoid to slam shut and sprayers to come on.
> 
> let me know, thanks boss


if relays make you nervous, that $80 atc timer TF uses will do what you need.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 21, 2010)

K, so im using the small 1/4 inch black aeration tubing, and ive done some simple tests to see how many T's one can have in a single line, before thesprayers start to lose pressure, and with my pump, the answer is about 5 T's, which is way more than i will need, as the most T's i will have off of a single 1/4 inch line is 2 or 3.

So im trying to figure out how to configure these sprayers.

These tubs are about 2ft by 4ft, and over 2 ft tall, but with water levels, just assume 2 ft tall of actual air inside.

Below are some diagrams. The pointy side of the triangle is the direction of spray.

Im thinking of having the lines outside the tubs, and wherver a spray site is, have a T, and have a small hole in the tub just big enough for the line, and then attach the spray nozzle to the line from inside the tub that way its all secure and cant go anywhere.

I would have the sprayers at the upper portion of the tub, about an inch or 2 from the top lip. Maybe i should go lower?

Im trying to pack the tub with as much roots as possible.

I figure a goot starting point will be 8 plants per tub.

The green circles are the plant sites.

If the tub doenst get full of roots, then next time ill do 10 or 12 plants

If the tub gets full of roots WELL BEFORE harvest time, then i will consider downsizing the number of plants in the next round.

The sprayers in the lid, i was thinking of having the line come down vertically, and then T and spray in 2, or 4 directions.

Or, i could have just a single sprayer per vertical line, and have it shooting straight down.

Im going to be running around 30psi+psi, which is about 8psi more than those iwaki pumps fatman linked a long time ago... i have one of those as well, they run around 22psi.

And im going to be using the 60-80 micron sprayers, 1gph, beige with black tips.

Pump that im using has PLENTY OF VOLUME, so you dont have to worry about using too many sprayers.

im just trying to figure out what the best setup is, and if having too many sprayers per tub would hurt me, or, if having not enough sprayers and too much roots will cause dry spots for the roots.

I know ill find the best way through testing, but just curious which way you guys think would be the best way to go







Im also slightly worried about having the feed lines coming in from the top of the lid, due to lights and heating up the lines.

When they come in from the sides, the tubs lip shade the lines from direct light, which is why i was trying to keep them up higher on the tubs.

Or i could run the lines inside the tubs? 

I know my res will be cool, but im worried about after a spray, and the lines are sitting there full of liquid, of them heating up, and then when they spray again, its hot water being sprayed.

Im not sure what kind of trouble this will cause me, if any?


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 21, 2010)

Just about everything hinges on what kind of spray pattern and throw the nozzles have as that dictates the number and placement to achieve full coverage. Its worth measuring if you have the pump and nozzles on hand even though you get a little damp in the process


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 21, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Just about everything hinges on what kind of spray pattern and throw the nozzles have as that dictates the number and placement to achieve full coverage. Its worth measuring if you have the pump and nozzles on hand even though you get a little damp in the process


so youre saying, make sure everything gets sprayed by the sprayers on the way out?

see, i was thinking with mp, a mist was created, and i didnt have to hit the roots with the mist from the nozzle, but that the mist would float around in the chamber...

but, as its obvious... i dont know this answer... ive just heard different thigns from different people.

i think fatman uses these sprayers and this level of pressure, or used to...

so he might know best on this setup... 

obviously im clueless


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 21, 2010)

Theres a lot of variables, the spread, throw and even the flowrate can be very different from one setup to another even with the same nozzles. I tested my nozzles 2ft off the ground firing horizontally, measured the throw and the width to find the included angle. The damp floor under the mist path tells you how much might reach the bottom of the chamber. 
If the nozzle was mounted firing directly downwards (or upwards) you would get completely different results.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 21, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so youre saying, make sure everything gets sprayed by the sprayers on the way out?
> 
> see, i was thinking with mp, a mist was created, and i didnt have to hit the roots with the mist from the nozzle, but that the mist would float around in the chamber...
> 
> ...


It's good that you ask because this is something I've been wondering about. Is there a droplet size that will float around on whatever air path is in the chamber or how do I determine what root mass a given sprayer in a certain spot can handle? HP, MP, LP, if there's a difference here let me know.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 21, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Theres a lot of variables, the spread, throw and even the flowrate can be very different from one setup to another even with the same nozzles. I tested my nozzles 2ft off the ground firing horizontally, measured the throw and the width to find the included angle. The damp floor under the mist path tells you how much might reach the bottom of the chamber.
> If the nozzle was mounted firing directly downwards (or upwards) you would get completely different results.


 
this shows that there are to many variables to make a blanket statement on where to place sprayers. an example of this can be seen this run in my system. i have pretty much the same nozzels with different root development this time just from having the misters down low compared to last time with the misters up high. i dont like the development this time as well but it is serving its purpose in keeping the roots from choking the misters off to early. now in the right sized chambers id never do the same thing cause it is causing the roots to form to thickly along the bottom but with this size chamber i have no choice if i want to finish the run. 

for HP sprayers the best option from my experience so far would be to have as much open space for the mist to float on before coming in contact with the roots as possible as this will cause the roots to reach out into the open space to capture the mist, forming the most delicate fine root hairs. so even a difference of 4 or 5 inches as is the case this time in placement can be seen in the different root development. 

i have no doubt as soon as i raise the misters the roots will again go straight up the chamber wall and reach out into the open space to catch the falling mist.

these things might not have much bearing on mp or lp placement but for Hp they provide a means of controling the root development for optimal efficiency of the avaliable chamber volume.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 21, 2010)

so you are starting low, and then moving them up higher as time progresses... because if you start them high, the roots branch high, and then the mist gets blocked and cant make it lower in the chamber...

and at that point, if you put the sprayers low, then all the top roots die off...

so this time you are starting low, and moving up over time, and hope to allow the mist to fall on the bottom wide roots that are already developed, and hope to outrun the development of the top roots in time for harvest? (that whole thing was a question, just making sure im understanding correctly)


So then on the setups ive drawn, consider this...

what if i put the top feed sprayers that come down from the lid... and have them start out low, and keep the ones on the sides of the tub high...

so now i have spray at both high and low levels...

and if i need to, i can always pull the sprayers that come down from the lid... up higher as the grow goes on.

now... my big concern is still the feed tubes getting too hot as they come in fromt he top of the lid and the lights hitting them.

I wonder if insulation foam sleaves that i see at lowes would do the trick in keeping these temps down in the spray lines?

thanks atomizer and TF



ps, how many sprayers are you guys using per tub? I know you are doing one plant per tub, but im still curious, and how big are your tubs, and how big do your roots get by the end of the grow?

Thanks guys


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 22, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so you are starting low, and then moving them up higher as time progresses... because if you start them high, the roots branch high, and then the mist gets blocked and cant make it lower in the chamber...
> 
> and at that point, if you put the sprayers low, then all the top roots die off...
> 
> ...


first off let me say that i have run single plant in 22 gallon round tubs(basically 22 gallon pails) and i used higher pressures than you are considering with the same drip irrigation 60-80 micron sprayers with 40-60psi and an accumulator with selonoid and seconds timers. i had my biggest tree ever in those pails but this is what you need to understand the roots never looked any different than any of the submersible pump ez cloner DWC pics you see online. the roots were large in the sense they were like thick ropes that ran to the bottom of the container and created a thick mat that layed on the silk screen bottom. so the mat wasnt submerged (like your going to try)but the roots never got any white fuzzies and looked like most DWC roots for most of the cycle but grew huge trees none the less. 

i had the sprayers the same as this system. four in a circle around the net pot up high on the lid. these sprayers basically sprayed the roots with a film of water that ran down the roots and thru the mat and then to the drain. so what im saying is that as long as you can give an even coverage to the roots that hang from the netpot to the chamber solution that is really all you have to worry about. the roots wont go out much just mostly straight down following the flow of water.

So the system has to be designed for what type of roots will develop. and unless you have different results than i had or have seen in these pressure ranges you need not really worry about the roots going out horizontally much just down and then dealing with the root mat(either submerged or lifted).

I know your hoping to upgrade later to higher pressures so really with the same sprayers and the higher pressures id just space them so that now the 360 degree they throw off hits the sides of the netpot with the outer perimeter of the 360 degree mist circle.

i hope you dont think im trying to say your idea isnt going to do well cause thats not what im saying i just want you to be aware of the likely probability in those pressure ranges that no matter where you place the sprayers your still going to have a hard time getting any roots to do much but come out the netpot and drop to the below flowing water where they will just collect. none the less the system will grow as big a plant as you want i think as long as you can keep the submerged roots happy and the hanging roots filmed.

i will add that i never ran any cycles below 6 sec every 3 minutes or so cause back then i had no idea that shorter mist cycles might have been benificial. and most of the time i ran around 20 seconds. i have seen some pics of others running shorter cycles in those pressure ranges and have seen they had some improvement over what i did as far as some fuzz but nothing that would reach out horizantally and choke a sprayer off up top or on the side.

never had problems with the feed tubes getting hot cause if they line is small and your misting often there isnt time for the solution to heat up much if the res is outside the room.

the tubes to insulate pipes in the winter i used for awhile on this system but found i didnt need them. i actually have to set the res at 72 now that the girls shade the lines to get the chamber temp to stay at 68. i do have white panda laying over the lines also though.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 23, 2010)

thanks, i understand what you are saying completely...

i was hoping someone would chime in with harsh reality of what they have accomplished in the past with a similar setup.

I will try shorter cycles, and obviously if i do have any fuzzing, ill let you know about it.

In the meantime, if i dont, im okay with that too... like you said, it can still grow some big trees.

Plant size is much dependent on root size... and root size is obviously about chamber size.

How tall were your chambers?


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 23, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> thanks, i understand what you are saying completely...
> 
> i was hoping someone would chime in with harsh reality of what they have accomplished in the past with a similar setup.
> 
> ...


20 inches is the distance from one side of the round tub to the other and 18inches tall. heres a pic of an old one i had as a spare that now holds some extra plumbing parts. 

i had a ten inch netpot on a plexiglass top with 4 of of the dripirrigation sprayers. had 1 1/4 or 1 1/2 drain but it was overkill. 3/4 would have been fine. the drip irrigation sprayers were threaded into some 1 inch hose with a thick wall that surrounded the netpot. same as my hp now only the HP is only 1/4 inch and uses fittings and different nozzels but the placement is the same.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 24, 2010)

so im late into flower, and my leaves have green veins, but are pale between veins, and new leaves are coming in super pale, and just falling off pretty much.

im thinking more cal mag?

im in those stupid stinkbud fence posts, with the 60-80 micron sprayers

i dont use any folair feeding or epsom salts of any kind

ph is 5.8

My buds arent big at all... but if you remember i had a serious drought, and im happy just to have my plants alive. (power outage and pump shut off for 8 hours)

buds finally started gaining weight again, but im worried im just running out of time, ... or can i just keep waiting and letting the plants go?

any thoughts?


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 24, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> The mains power (or whatever voltage the solenoids, pumps will use) is connected to the relays "common" contacts.
> When the coil is not powered up the commons connect to the normally closed (n/c) contacts.
> When the coil is powered the commons connect to the normally open (n/o) contacts.
> 
> ...


 
k, so my little relays that you linked showed up today (the 120vac ones)

to switch to reverse polarity, so when there is current, the solenoid gets no current and vise versa...

so looking at the top of this little relay...

it has 8 poles, that are all numbered.

7 and 8 are at the bottom, and are the only 2 that are vertical tabs.

All the others are horizontal (1-6)

So, im assuming 7 and 8 are the two that i connect to the timer (one black and one white, pos and neg)

and then i assume 1-6 are where i would attach the other ones that go to the solenoid... but im not sure which 2 to hook it up to.

Thanks guys

ps, how often do these things wear out? i bought 3 just incase they do, and then got 4 of the 12v ones for the float sensors coming as well.

Thanks


update..

i see it has a little diagram on the side... i shows 7 and 8 connected by a lateral line.

Then 1 3 and 5 are a circuit, and 2 4 and 6 are a circut.

It looks like 1 and 5 are normally closed, and then if im reading this right, i assume the switch flips over to the 3 side, and connects the circuit to 3 when the power is on between 7 and 8...

does that sound right? Thanks


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 24, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so im late into flower, and my leaves have green veins, but are pale between veins, and new leaves are coming in super pale, and just falling off pretty much.
> 
> im thinking more cal mag?
> 
> ...


what nutes you using? what ppm you at? if you have a ph and ppm meter check the drain ph and ppm and see how it compares to whats going in. are you cycling the mist or running constant. if constant then checking the drain ph and ppm wont be of any help but if not you can figure alot out from those numbers. it could be the ppm level is to low or the nutes you are currently using are to low with nitrogen. id try and correct it cause it will affect your yield unless your way way into flower. and if you dont figure it out you wont know how to correct it next time if it happens.

im finding out that for HP aero it would be pretty hard to run a recirculating system unless you were using a strain you already had developed the proper ec and mist cycles for because the DTW is so valuable in determining what is going on in HP because the ec levels and nute ratios are pretty sensitive.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 24, 2010)

first off i figured out the relay, so thats cool

my ppm's are around 1500, but 300 of that is the tap water 

it could be low ppm's

i just changed my water yesterday for the first time in a long time.

i wasnt running much cal mag plus at all...

so, i think its iron or cal or mag... because when i read the descriptions, iron fits my problem best.

anyway... before i changed the water, i let the ppms rise on it (as they do because the plants drink more water than they do nutes, so i replace buckets of water, and dont need to add nutes to keep the ppm's the same)

i know i need a good ro water system... im getting one for my next setup

other thing im wondering is what c02 deficiency looks like?

im prob gonna get co2 on my next run as well

i will try and measure my waste water coming back to the res to figure out whats going on.

What kinds of tests can i do? if ph is lower, whats that mean, and if its higher whats that mean?

I have a feeling ppm will have to be higher since plants are drinking water, and ppms in my res go up pretty quick in a few days.

I think more than anythign it was the drought that really hurt me because plants were doing great prior to it... so i bet just between root damage, etc, and i did back off on the ppms for a while because i didnt want to burn the plants any further than they already were.

i have more than ample amounts of cal mag in there now... so we will see what that does.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 24, 2010)

im running AN 3 part btw. just the micro and the bloom, and also big bud.

not the sensi, just the plain jane stuff

im now doing 5 parts micro, 4 parts bloom and 4 parts big bud and prob around 3 parts cal mag plus and 2 parts liquid karma, and 3 parts diamond nector. And thats everything i use.

i was hoping fatman would chime in on powder nutes, and making them from scratch... or sending me some samples to try. I think hes vanished.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 24, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> k, so my little relays that you linked showed up today (the 120vac ones)
> 
> to switch to reverse polarity, so when there is current, the solenoid gets no current and vise versa...
> 
> ...


Relays last a fair while, the ones i use are rated >200,000 cycles at full load, the mechanical life is >10 million cycles. You can usually track down the relays spec sheet from the info on the relay (make/model).
The easiest way to identify/confirm the pins is to use a continuity tester/multi-meter.
Sounds like 7&8 are the coil, 1&2 are the commons, 5&6 are normally closed and 3&4 are normally open.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 24, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> im running AN 3 part btw. just the micro and the bloom, and also big bud.
> 
> not the sensi, just the plain jane stuff
> 
> ...


Still around just not posting to the nutrient thread anymore as I am tired of dealing with that antiquated soil grower  Uncle Ben. Actually I do not think he really even grows anymore but just talks like it.  His stories change so much who knows. But, what ever.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 25, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Still around just not posting to the nutrient thread anymore as I am tired of dealing with that antiquated soil grower  Uncle Ben. Actually I do not think he really even grows anymore but just talks like it.  His stories change so much who knows. But, what ever.


 
im serious about this fatman... im to the point where ive got everythign else figured out finally INCLUDING RELAYS 

I know, im sweet 

Anyway... i seriously want to start mixing up my own nutes, but dont want to mess up... i cant afford to.

Im doing my best to try to understand your jibberish, its a foreign language right now... but im starting to grasp a lot of it.

Im just scared to go to the store and start buying this stuff...

because if i buy the wrong shit, im screwed.

I mean, is it illegal to ship powdered nutes?

Are all the nutes you use in powder form originally?

Im not kidding, i will send you cash, if you can ship me the labled nutes, in quantities I can manage and afford to test around with...

and since AN does a 50383049% markup... as you say, jsut cut that markup in half or in 1/4th, and make a few bucks, and then i can start to toy with this shit on a more precise level as you guys do.

Obviously, i believe you know how to grow healthy plants...

anyway, let me know, peace


----------



## GrayRoanek (Feb 25, 2010)

Hello to everyone. Love this journal. Fatman you're my idol. Tree farmer, way to go, never satisfied are you. BTW, those roots were AWESOME when you got the right feeding cycle.

Been reading up on bubbleponics and aeroponics and will read the NASA papers sometime soon. 

I have tons of questions and observations. But first I have a few products that might interest you.

Pump: /http://www.freshwatersystems.com/p-5064-550-demand-pump-49-gpm-12-fpt-115v-ac-w-cord.aspx?affiliateid=10053

Media: http://www.suretogrow.com/hydroponic-products

Nozzles: http://www.mistcooling.com/misting_nozzles.htm
I've seen nozzles with filters like these but metal.
http://www.greenhillmfg.com/htdocs/foginlin.htm

One observation. Fatman said the plants will tell you what they want. At one point, TF was
feeding EC 900 and his waste was EC 300. Doesn't this mean he should up the nutes? I
have heard HP aero feeding upto 4000! (Not sure I believe after this journal).

A quick question for Fatman. Where do you buy your nutrients, from chemical suppliers or
argricultural suppliers? If you won't dilvuge your special formulas, perhaps you could direct us to a good book or website.

Lastly, I'm interested in ultrasonic foggers as a simpler aero method. Yes, I know most
foggers put out a 'dry' fog. The're using a very high frequency ~1.5 Mhz generating ~5u 
droplets. Lower Hz will create larger droplets. Sonic foggers and muffin fans to distribute the fog replace HP pumps, accumalators, selenoids, etc. I've searching for the
required transducers, probably find them from China.

P.S. Sheriberry, better have the air compressor on a UPS or those roots will rot. And plenty
of airstones.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 25, 2010)

GrayRoanek said:


> Hello to everyone. Love this journal. Fatman you're my idol. Tree farmer, way to go, never satisfied are you. BTW, those roots were AWESOME when you got the right feeding cycle.
> 
> Been reading up on bubbleponics and aeroponics and will read the NASA papers sometime soon.
> 
> ...


ive seen those pumps they are pretty similar to the one i have on my RO system. i didnt see the pressure rating though. ive been wanting to take mine from the ro system and try it on the HP system to see if it could pump my accumulator up to 100psi and how long it would take but havent got to it yet. they sure are quiet though compared to the shurflo.

ive seen the video on that media also and it looks like some nice stuff just not sure how much moisture it would hold. im really liking the bioballs for the netpot but the experment of them on the chamber floor is not all i hoped for. the silk screen lifted bottom is better i think.

Im still working on those ec levels to see what works best but these ladies are taking alot more ec than the last ones so i may have been underfeeding last time. im monitoring the runoff closer now to try and get a grasp on what the input ec should be but its a work in progress. almost everything i have read says HP aero takes less nutes. do you have a link to anything where they were feeding that high. id be interested in seeing it as i always try and keep an open mind.

lot of people have tried the foggers without much success but maybe you have a different angle and can make it work. the only way to know is try. ive learned more from all my mistakes than i have from all the reading ive done. nothing like trying something and then figuring out how to make it work. i wish alot of times someone had the answer so i wouldnt have to do trial and error but youll find out when doing something different your on your own. glad you stopped by. good luck and let us know how the ultrasonics works out.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 25, 2010)

the pump he linked has a chart if you click the technical data link below the description once you are too the page. It looked like it went to 70psi, not shabby.

as far as air stones, yes, i jsut bought a big ass air pump today that came with a 12 port manifold and each port has a nice little valve, and its made of metal... so there will be 1, if not 2 air stones per tub.

Im debating between air stones or trying those rubber air hoses that are lazer cut, since they sell ones that are long, like the length of the tubs im using.

alright, so i got my relays... and the 12v ones came today... so now... what should i use for a battery? and do i need to attach a trickle charger to that battery somehow?

All this battery is going to be for is for the float level sensors, so not a lot of juice needed, i wouldnt think?


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 26, 2010)

To save you messing around with a battery and charger you can buy a small "regulated" ac-dc adapter, 120v ac input/12v dc output @ 300mA is plenty.

A 70psi pump will put limits on the drawdown volume and working pressure range. With a 5 gal tank you`d get just over half a gal with 70psi to 60psi. If you can live with a lower pressure cut-in point, just over a gallon with 50psi to 70psi.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 26, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> To save you messing around with a battery and charger you can buy a small "regulated" ac-dc adapter, 120v ac input/12v dc output @ 300mA is plenty.
> 
> A 70psi pump will put limits on the drawdown volume and working pressure range. With a 5 gal tank you`d get just over half a gal with 70psi to 60psi. If you can live with a lower pressure cut-in point, just over a gallon with 50psi to 70psi.


 
just go to radio shaq and get one or??? thanks boss


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 26, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> just go to radio shaq and get one or??? thanks boss


you can get them cheap from the same place you got the relays.
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PS-1251/12-VDC-500-MA-REGULATED-POWER-SUPPLY/-/1.html
http://www.allelectronics.com/make-a-store/item/PS-1236/12VDC-300MA-SWITCHING-POWER-SUPPLY/-/1.html
they have all different types. some regulated some not. ive got boxes of them from that company of all different voltages and amps. there just to cheap not to have a bunch around for when i need one. alot of times old wall transformers that power other electricial devices can be used. check that junk drawer with all the old wall plug in transformers might find something.


----------



## GrayRoanek (Feb 26, 2010)

I'm bad. After a quick search I foound the *Methodical, scientific approach to nutrients and nutrient formulations* forum.
Marijuana Growing > The Grow Room > General Marijuana Growing > Nutrients 
https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/295437-methodical-scientific-approach-nutrients-nutrient-1.html

In which Fatman discusses and critiques current commercial nutes. He also provides his nutrient recipes. ALL PRAISE TO FATMAN!! 
Seems like someone should produce Fatman nutes and sell them for a reasonable price [Giving a hefty cut to the Prof].

Has anyone thought about using the mist for foliar feeding. After charging the root space, a fan and some flapper valves would feed the leaves and aerate the root chamber. This is a direct infusion of water and nutes to the leaves. Probably during dark periods.

One other thought. We assume 20/4 and 12/12 lighting cycles synch with solar days. What happens if you accelerate the rhythm? For veg, four cycles of 5/1. For flowering I assume a long 12 hour dark period is necessary. I'll check the web.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 27, 2010)

The regulated 500mA in TF`s link would do the trick nicely. A regulated supply is better than unregulated as it will maintain the 12v output voltage regardless of the load. The 12v relay you have draws about 33mA so that supply could run upto 15


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 27, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Thats the reason for having a 12v dc coil relay, the other is the floatswitch is in the water and 12v dc won`t kill you
> The floatswitch uses 12v dc to energise the relay coil and the relay coil then switches relay contacts with the mains voltage. The pump/floatswitch circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 12v dc coil and the cycle timer/solenoid circuit uses a DPDT relay with a 120v ac coil.
> 
> I looked on TF`s relay website and this relay (DPDT 12vdc coil, [email protected]) should do the job,
> ...


this quote is from a while ago...

but i just hooked up the float level relay today and it works!

here is what im wondering tho...

the sump pump im using already has a float switch that is one of those big balls just attached to a power cord...

problem is i cant figure out a way to keep it low enough so that a low amount of water makes it trigger... if that makes sense...

and its not precise. Thats why i just bought a different float sensor and im doing it that way.

I am guessing that the float sensor the sump pump uses is 120vac

reason im asking is if its NOT, then i could cut off its big bulky ball, and wire that directly to the level sensor i bought.

If i dont do it that way, i just plan on keeping that ball mounted in a perminent uptright position so it give the pump power, the realy is what dictates when it comes on and off.

ps... those pins on that relay... are like needles... i dont even understand how they can carry the currents it says its rated for at 8amp 120v ac... is insane.. im scared the elecricity is going to ark from one connection to another, or one pin to another for that matter


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 27, 2010)

also, the reason i cant use the float sensor on the pump is because i cant figure out a way to "paperweight" it to the bottom of the tub... if you guys can think of something heavy that doenst hurt the nute water, AND that i could mount a clip so that i can attach the clip to the cord the ball is attached to.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 27, 2010)

i started a thread a while back to ask this... but no one really chimed in...

during late bloom... uv makes more crystals.

i was thinknig instead of getting a huge high powered uv bulb...

getting just a couple 10,000 color temp t5 sanitation medical uv bulbs and putting them in a bloom room.

What do you guys think about this idea?


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 27, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> also, the reason i cant use the float sensor on the pump is because i cant figure out a way to "paperweight" it to the bottom of the tub... if you guys can think of something heavy that doenst hurt the nute water, AND that i could mount a clip so that i can attach the clip to the cord the ball is attached to.


when i need to hold something down in the res i use a piece of PVC pipe and fill it with lead fish wieghts and then cap each end with a cap and PVC cement it. have an assortment always laying around. nothing comes in contact with the solution just the PVC if you glue the caps properly.very quick and easy to make. then i just zip tie whatever i want to hold down to the PVC and drop in res. done it for all sorts of things over the years that would float up or move around. mostly though for pump intakes with stiff tubes in shallow res.

i have some of those ball float sensors for sump pumps and they work on line voltage and are a bitch to try and get set to work at the right hieght. i recently tried one in a five gallon pail to pump my DTW up and just gave up and put it on a timer instead.


----------



## GrayRoanek (Feb 27, 2010)

Hi ALL. This is like a little community, love it. 

You can order the pump without a pressure cutoff. Provides 90 PSI. You've talked about relays. There are timed relays, SCRs, etc. I've always used OPTO 22 SCRs. Useful for controlling an inductive load, like a motor. Zero crossing switching, so you're not slamming the motor. I use a cheap, old laptop (with custom software) for state control.

Sherri, I would pass on the UV. Perhaps it's useful, but, a MH flooding the blue/green regions seems to work cheaper.

TF, I know your interest in foliar feeding. A misting aero system could be easily be converted to foliar feeding. Some flapper valves and a small air fan would push the mist into the foliage. This is a direct method of feeding the leaves water and nutes. {Roots, SHMOOTS, we don't need no stinking roots}

FWIW, after some research, I've found 40Khz is appropriate to generate a ~50 micron mist from ultrasonic transducers. Most (ALL) nebulizers use a 1.5-2.6 Mhz transducer generating ~1-5 micron droplets (Much to small for adequate feeding). Anyway, 40KHz transducers are used for cleaning applications. Anyhow, so much to do and so little time.

Thanks all, for your input. We'll get this pat soon.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 27, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> when i need to hold something down in the res i use a piece of PVC pipe and fill it with lead fish wieghts and then cap each end with a cap and PVC cement it. have an assortment always laying around. nothing comes in contact with the solution just the PVC if you glue the caps properly.very quick and easy to make. then i just zip tie whatever i want to hold down to the PVC and drop in res. done it for all sorts of things over the years that would float up or move around. mostly though for pump intakes with stiff tubes in shallow res.
> 
> i have some of those ball float sensors for sump pumps and they work on line voltage and are a bitch to try and get set to work at the right hieght. i recently tried one in a five gallon pail to pump my DTW up and just gave up and put it on a timer instead.


Have you ever tried a conductivity based relay such as the Crouzet Pump Up Relay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Crouzet-Syrelec-PNRT-110A-Relay-Control-Pump-Up-New_W0QQitemZ300193352079QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45e4eb098f

Use the relay with some titanium bicycle spokes as a replacement for floats and a relay. As long as you have some salts for conductivity they work great, Won't work on pure RO water however. They have both Pump Up and Pump Down relays.

Crouzet Site Info on relays:
http://www.crouzet-usa.com/catalog/_nr.shtml

I am old school. I get all my relays for bases such as Octal bases. I hate soldering and soldering relays. I like to just plug into wire terminal bases. It is not like it is a difference between a 200 pound tube type TV or a 75 pound circuit board TV. I would rather just use a little more space and weight and save the soldering and unsoldering by using wire terminal bases.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 28, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Have you ever tried a conductivity based relay such as the Crouzet Pump Up Relay. http://cgi.ebay.com/Crouzet-Syrelec-PNRT-110A-Relay-Control-Pump-Up-New_W0QQitemZ300193352079QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item45e4eb098f
> 
> Use the relay with some titanium bicycle spokes as a replacement for floats and a relay. As long as you have some salts for conductivity they work great, Won't work on pure RO water however. They have both Pump Up and Pump Down relays.
> 
> ...


thanks fatman for chiming in on everything AFTER i buy all this stuff and wait over a week for it all to ship in.

maybe ill get to try this idea on my NEXT setup 

seriously tho, i would like to know how all this stuff works, so more details on an exact shopping list, and how it all configures together would be great.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 28, 2010)

gray roanek...

2x 54 watt 4 ft bulb... im not sure i follow you?

how is a mh cheaper or producing as much uv? its not.

it uses more power 400 or more watts, and it requires the purchase of another ballast.. and creates heat.

I like your other ideas about misters tho...

would be interested to see a link on the exact ones you are talking about


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 28, 2010)

GrayRoanek said:


> Hi ALL. This is like a little community, love it.
> 
> You can order the pump without a pressure cutoff. Provides 90 PSI. You've talked about relays. There are timed relays, SCRs, etc. I've always used OPTO 22 SCRs. Useful for controlling an inductive load, like a motor. Zero crossing switching, so you're not slamming the motor. I use a cheap, old laptop (with custom software) for state control.


Hi GrayRoanek

You wouldn`t gain much from zero cross switching with the pump/accumulator approach as the pump only runs a couple of times a day. A pump on its own can`t provide 1 second misting pulses no matter how its switched so it wouldn`t be much help there 



> I've found 40Khz is appropriate to generate a ~50 micron mist from ultrasonic transducers


If you could control the transducers to the nth degree they could work quite well. Mist without control will just soak everything


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 28, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> thanks fatman for chiming in on everything AFTER i buy all this stuff and wait over a week for it all to ship in.
> 
> maybe ill get to try this idea on my NEXT setup
> 
> seriously tho, i would like to know how all this stuff works, so more details on an exact shopping list, and how it all configures together would be great.


Your welcome sherri. 

I have been avoiding this thread lately as I have been in a bad mood and I did not want to come to this thread and dump on ayone due to my anger over the Uncle Ben crap I just went through.


----------



## Treeth (Feb 28, 2010)

Don't censor yourself fatman-
I just read through 'it', and never found your comments to be out of line (except for those deleted?); and I don't think you need to be reflexive on your particular praxis... here on the boards or across other spaces. Those many confrontational, discursive issues which you are so well equipped to draw out, as an active member of contemporary academia are beyond resolution by any one person. I greatly appreciate your contributions, logic, and science, as they challenge me to evolve my perceptions. Very few posters can do this, past simply imparting their personal, dogmatic, tacit understandings of growing; I.E. Ben. Taking your advanced knowledge out of the institutional setting is an act implicitly to be commended and of immense benefit to the community. This is an all too _infrequent_ an occurrence, more generally, despite these difficulties inherit in turning the entrenched. Even with persistence. 

... I really need to get out of my sewage buckets. How is your air assisted atomization project taking shape fatman? 

I had constructed a styrofoam box, 2'x2'x4', with rows and columns of holes on the top face in which to seat netcups; however I could not get my plants to root, using two Delevan Sn assemblies and timings similar to TF's ~2 sec to 8 minutes. The setup was destroyed, as it was not sustainable through flowering. The problem of root zone air circulation has to be dealt with first. Which means constructing a full dual zone setup, with climate control on either side. The logistics of which are perhaps beyond the space limitations of my current op, besides having the patience for aero root development from clones... Another dual hose air conditioner and associated ducting, a couple more Sn-s and adapters for more complete coverage, a larger compressor tank, a silent compressor, and the divider walls... Which do not inhibit air flow on the lighted side, are light proof, and accessible to manipulate the misters. I think that is a complete structural representation...

The only remaining problem for this drain to waste, vertical sog, divided room set up, is in figuring out a feeding mechanism for the atomizers. Whether the reservoir(s) are to be local, or system wide. How to have solution ready at the nozzle with minimal venturi suction needed to draw liquid during the pulse. AND how to solve the drip problem of the nozzles, which will allow solution to stream out.

My thought that you guys could help me with, is finding a membrane to fit in-line between the open nozzle, and the pressure of a gravity fed line of nutrient solution from the res; 'resistance' which is to be overcome momentarily by the negative pressure of the compressed air, when released on the timed solenoid valve. A very low tech, and easily replaced, passive type of solenoid. Powerade bottles over a decade ago had something like this.

Sherry, your DWC/AERO hybrid is exactly right. Pull the feeder type roots down with an insuring DO solution on the floor, and hit this drinking 'superstructure' root system with mist. I'm going to try this in my isolated, 5 gallon DWC's. The only problem is, that this is a recirculating system... And so complicates things. Fatman has me assuming, that the best, complete way to feed truly aeroponically, is run to waste, in a sog style op. You'll be able to grow massive trees, but the efficacy of 'fuzzy' aero roots compared to drinking roots in uptake necessitates separate nutrient solutions... Also, if aero mist must dry on the fine root hairs, and not run having only one pass, this specifically excludes the use of recirculating nutes, No? And, what I don't know either, is how dangerous the run to waste nutes that end up in the recirculating system become over time, and how quickly. I think it is important to recognize the different types of roots. You said it yourself... Surface area. So, forcing a big root structure, and then cultivating and keeping fuzzy roots, is the way to go, and to keep the true aeroponic breed and its benefits, including speed. Today I also learned that nutrient purity on a medicinal level is also most possible in Tag. (UV bulbs kick ass by the way. I've been using the reptisun 10.0 uvb cfl's later in flowering.)

Oh, and Fatman, or others, do you possess an informed position on, pulse width modulation of photometric flux in 4 dimensional relation to the "step" like process of photon capture in photosynthesis? I'm wondering specifically if you've read any research beyond those studies limited to species, spectrum, timing, and efficacy of micro biotic action, but on a whole plant? 

Morning Ya'll.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 28, 2010)

Hi Treeth, welcome back 

One of your comments struck a chord with me so i did a quick search through my research.. Et Voila!
The conventional understanding of root hair function is that root hairs increase root surface area, thereby enhancing water and nutrient uptake.

http://vzj.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/7/3/1027

A plant grown in an aeroponic environment produces abundant root hairs to increase the effective root capture area in order to connect with as much mist as possible.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 28, 2010)

any advice on how to get more boron into my nutes?

ps, i was being serious fatman... id like to figure out how you level finding system works


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 28, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I did not want to come to this thread and dump on ayone due to my anger over the Uncle Ben crap I just went through.


Again? 

Please just try to ignore the fools, you're better than that. 

You're one of the most valued people on here and we need you around.

He isn't shit, and wouldn't be missed.

Fight settled.


----------



## OregonMeds (Feb 28, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> any advice on how to get more boron into my nutes?
> 
> ps, i was being serious fatman... id like to figure out how you level finding system works


No, other than keeping the ph in the right range so the plant can use it, but this brings up a question I had which relates to the aero/dwc plan. 

According to charts like this there's a gap in between where some nutrients are available and others. I'm wondering if you would want to have slightly different ph values than most people run in the hybrid so that one system is ideal to deliver one set of nutrients and the other...







Treeth wondered about what the aero runoff would do to the dwc mix, I am also wondering the same thing. I think from the sound of things the aero runoff would be small compared to the dwc volume, so it might not make much difference aside from what it may do to the ph of the dwc water.

In standard systems some are manipulating the ph at different stages of the plants life, for example raising ph to give calcium early in flower rather than add cal-mag or whatever then going back to normal after that stage... Could things like that be avoided and a set ph be used in both all the way through since ea could be different?


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 28, 2010)

wow, i grasp what youre saying completely....

so for instance... if you had the sprayers spray from a pure res where ph was 5.5....

and then the dwc in the bottom was kept at 5.9 or 6.0

this would allow the plants roots the best of both worlds.

The only question is would the dwc water the roots are carrying to the top... would its PH affect or block the desired effect from the mist ph? see what im saying?

im not that savvy to even come close to knowing the answer to that.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 28, 2010)

volume in my setup is going to be AT LEAST 55gal, but prob even more.

id say closer to 70 gal probably.

WHen you realize im using 5+ rubbermiad 44gal totes...

and they will always be at least 3 inches deep, and the main res will also be pretty full at all times.

like ive said... it becomes impossible for anything to flood tho, even if power goes out.

The spray WOULD NOT affect ph much at all...

and... one has to check the ph anyway once a day, so at that point you just adjust it, with up or down stuff.


----------



## fatman7574 (Feb 28, 2010)

The pH changes in the run of water from aero are large but they will not be that noticeable what with the large reservoir size. I generally formulate my nutrients for a pH of 7.8 Phosphorus, Magnesium and Calcium are in buffer compounds so it shows in the pH charts the availability as if all the Phosphorus, Magnesium and Calcium are tied up in buffering compounds. However this not the case in fresh nutrients with adequte levels of these salts, only in old nutrients solutions that have not had the EC maintained between reservoir changes.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 28, 2010)

i dont feel the aero part if HP is used would contribute much to the below DWC content. in my current system im at .5 sec every 5 minutes and i only see around 8 ounces currently during lights on come out the drain(even less on the larger one) and almost nothing during lights out. the ph is usually .2 to .5 higher than going in so with this small amount of mist ending up in the Dwc and small ph rise it wouldnt contribute much to the solution in my opinion. one could speculate that possibly the plant with an efficient HP root system doesnt need large quanities of water since in my current run they seem to be doing ok with the little they see. i could be wrong though maybe they would be growing much faster than they are if they had tap roots in a constant source of water. i do know that if i mist them much more they start to show the signs of overwatering. i guess well find out when you guys get going.

treeth
I thought you maybe fell into a hole we havent heard from you in so long. im currently watching a guy set up an HP cloner and am wondering how its going to work. im wondering why yours didnt take.


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 28, 2010)

fatman
here is a question for you. how much if any do you think plants uptake nutrients during lights out. im trying to get an idea of how much nutes is necessary during that time. does a plant just rely on stored energy during that time or do they use some nutes even though photosynthesis is not taking place. i want to use this info to determine misting cycles and nutrient levels for lights out if possible.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 28, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The pH changes in the run of water from aero are large but they will not be that noticeable what with the large reservoir size. I generally formulate my nutrients for a pH of 7.8 Phosphorus, Magnesium and Calcium are in buffer compounds so it shows in the pH charts the availability as if all the Phosphorus, Magnesium and Calcium are tied up in buffering compounds. However this not the case in fresh nutrients with adequte levels of these salts, only in old nutrients solutions that have not had the EC maintained between reservoir changes.


 
7.8? dude, you are a crazy genius....

you loose me every time you talk...

im a fast learner if you could just give a quick crash course or point me to one so i can get on somewhat of the same page with you.

I want to mix up my own nutes.. im scared to pull the trigger tho because i have to buy them in bulk, and every time you talk, its like something new out of left field, so im worried ill completely screw it up.

PLEASE TAKE A TRIP TO MY LOCATION SO WE CAN TALK AND I WILL MAKE IT WORTH YOUR WHILE, I have free nice cars for you to drive and a extra house with a nice huge bed to sleep in.

kiss-ass


----------



## GrayRoanek (Feb 28, 2010)

Sherri, found this forum has lots of scholarly references about activation spectrum of cannabis. Haven't waded through them all. Main emphasis is flatter spectrums are better following the TOTAL activation spectra.

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=158600&page=2


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 28, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> in my current system im at .5 sec every 5 minutes and i only see around 8 ounces currently during lights on come out the drain(even less on the larger one) and almost nothing during lights out.


That works out to just 113ml (3.82oz) of nutes consumed per chamber per day


----------



## tree farmer (Feb 28, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> That works out to just 113ml (3.82oz) of nutes consumed per chamber per day


not sure how your math mind calculated that but just in case you misunderstood me that is 8 ounces out of each chamber as i now just have dishes under the pods to collect the waste cause if i wait for it to make it thru the drain hose i cant get an accurate reading of the ec and ph cause it takes to long to go the 10 ft thru the drain hose to the sump with such low flow. lights out i have them on 1 sec every 30 minutes. still around 32 ounces a day down the drain isnt bad. at 300 ppm you can see why DTW is the only way to go.when you feel a fan leaf you can tell they are getting enough water cause the leaf feels cool to the touch and there isnt any leaf cupping. im sure its hard for peeps to believe that but it is what it is.


----------



## sherriberry (Feb 28, 2010)

GrayRoanek said:


> Sherri, found this forum has lots of scholarly references about activation spectrum of cannabis. Haven't waded through them all. Main emphasis is flatter spectrums are better following the TOTAL activation spectra.
> 
> http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=158600&page=2


 
good thread... i didnt see much on uv light tho.

you understand obviously that uv light hurts plants just like it hurts our skin....

and weed produces its own natural sunblock....

we know it better as the crystals that have the thc inside.

so what im saying is...

during the last few weeks of flowering... if you put some t5 uv medical bulbs in a grow room, i dont see any reason why it would hurt anything... and it wouldnt add much to an electric bill or to heat...

and just wondering what kind of success anyone has had and if anyone has tried this.

still, a good linked thread tho.


----------



## Atomizer (Feb 28, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> not sure how your math mind calculated that but just in case you misunderstood me that is 8 ounces out of each chamber . im sure its hard for peeps to believe that but it is what it is.


Believe or not that was per chamber and doesn`t account for longer night cycles 
Assuming each chamber has 4 nozzles @ 0.04oz (4.258LPH) on a 0.5sec/5min cycle they would deliver 680ml per day, minus the run-off 8oz (567ml) = 113ml/day.

It appears 8 us fl oz is actually 236ml so my math is adrift due to pesky unit conversion  its still not a great deal though at 444ml (15 us fl oz).

It could be sheer coincidence but the predicted daily throughput for early growth with a 22.2gal (84L) chamber is 0.45L


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 1, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> fatman
> here is a question for you. how much if any do you think plants uptake nutrients during lights out. im trying to get an idea of how much nutes is necessary during that time. does a plant just rely on stored energy during that time or do they use some nutes even though photosynthesis is not taking place. i want to use this info to determine misting cycles and nutrient levels for lights out if possible.


Night time uptake of nutrients is negligible. Transport of nutrients from the rootsto the plant is dependant upon transpiration and there is almost no tranpiration after the lights go out as their is no heat issue causing a need for cooling nor is there light heating the foliage and therefore driving the transpiration.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 1, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> i dont feel the aero part if HP is used would contribute much to the below DWC content. in my current system im at .5 sec every 5 minutes and i only see around 8 ounces currently during lights on come out the drain(even less on the larger one) and almost nothing during lights out. the ph is usually .2 to .5 higher than going in so with this small amount of mist ending up in the Dwc and small ph rise it wouldnt contribute much to the solution in my opinion. one could speculate that possibly the plant with an efficient HP root system doesnt need large quanities of water since in my current run they seem to be doing ok with the little they see. i could be wrong though maybe they would be growing much faster than they are if they had tap roots in a constant source of water. i do know that if i mist them much more they start to show the signs of overwatering. i guess well find out when you guys get going.
> 
> treeth
> I thought you maybe fell into a hole we havent heard from you in so long. im currently watching a guy set up an HP cloner and am wondering how its going to work. im wondering why yours didnt take.


Your right in that little water is required in a controlled climate where the water is applied in a manner where the up take efficiency is so good. The water is principally used to maintain plant cooling through transpiration and to transport nutrients. It takes miniscule amounts of additional water to actually transport the nutrients as the water used to transport is already within the plant. The water that will be transpired actually moves the nutrient water and its nutrients through out the plant. 

So to incraese tranpiration you need lower humidity and higher temps and or both. This also allows for increased nutrient uptake. With such an efficient root system even high temps and low humidity will not increase water take up to any huge extent. Maybe 50% to 100% at most. This wouldlikely not take place unless temps were in the 80's and thehumidity was below about 30% to 40%.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 1, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Your right in that little water is required in a controlled climate where the water is applied in a manner where the up take efficiency is so good. The water is principally used to maintain plant cooling through transpiration and to transport nutrients. It takes miniscule amounts of additional water to actually transport the nutrients as the water used to transport is already within the plant. The water that will be transpired actually moves the nutrient water and its nutrients through out the plant.
> 
> So to incraese tranpiration you need lower humidity and higher temps and or both. This also allows for increased nutrient uptake. With such an efficient root system even high temps and low humidity will not increase water take up to any huge extent. Maybe 50% to 100% at most. This wouldlikely not take place unless temps were in the 80's and thehumidity was below about 30% to 40%.


i could run my room at 30 percent humidity and 80 degree temp but i always hear conflicting info on humidity. whats your thoughts on what people say that if the humidity is to low the plant just compensates by closing its *stomata* to reduce transpiration. im thinking a plant that grows in very dry climate has to do something to limit the escape of water as it has to survive on little water. but maybe if it has all the water it needs it doesnt adjust its stomata to compensate. im going to have to do some research into that.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 1, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> i could run my room at 30 percent humidity and 80 degree temp but i always hear conflicting info on humidity. whats your thoughts on what people say that if the humidity is to low the plant just compensates by closing its *stomata* to reduce transpiration. im thinking a plant that grows in very dry climate has to do something to limit the escape of water as it has to survive on little water. but maybe if it has all the water it needs it doesnt adjust its stomata to compensate. im going to have to do some research into that.


I hear a lot of strange things in the MJ forums. A plants cells are filled with water, and the whole plant is 'rigid' with the water. This is caused by the high positive internal osmotic pressure, also called _turgor_. This state of high internal pressure in cells is called hypotonic. Should a plant lose its turgor, it would wilt and its leaves would be completely limp.

Most energy for keeping the cells hypertonic results from the transpiration, the evaporative pull resulting from water evaporated through the stomata and from the cohesion & capillary action of the water in the plants veins. 

Roots control the environment and intake and exhaust of solutes. Some of the pressure is created actively by the root-hair cells - cells pump water inside the plant, using their cellular energy (_ATP_). 

If you lower the humidity about the plant without lowering the temperature if the plant has water and a quality root system that can pump the water to maintain plant cell turgor they will simply transpire more. There are extremes such as hot dry air in a hot climate where there is very little water (sandy dry soil lacking organics and humus), and yes then as turgor is lost the stomata would close. 

But That would be the fault of a lack of water availability not due to the low humidity. Put a drip ssytenm in to keep that sandly soil moist and thepalnt would regain turgor and transpiration would increase. It is as simple as that. The hype about humidity is based mainly upon soil grows where water is limited to what little is held by the absorbancey of the soil. Hydro eliminates that limited water availability as long as the water is dispenced often enough. It also is perpetuated by growers who use grossly excessive ventilation in combination with poor roots systems. 

A plant with a good root system and adequate water availability has many more problems with high humidity than they ever have with low humidity. 

High transpiration where the humidity is being removed as the transpiration takes place is much different than low humidity caused by inadequate tranpiration due to inadequate capabilty to move the water through shiity root systems or due to a lack of adequate amounts of water. 

ie a shiity grow can have problems with low humidity. A good grow does not have low humidity issues as high transpiration is still taking place and it is not limited due to its good root system and ample water availability.

hair roots have huge water moving capability. On the average length of 5 mm of root covered with hair roots, the surface area of these root hairs would exceed 1/3 square meter, over 3 square feet!!! So if your root systems are adequately cared for and are provided with conditions that promote and maintain *hair roots* then those hair roots can easily supply all the water for huge levels of transpiration even with huge plants growing at low humidities.


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 1, 2010)

It appears only the tip plane of a root hair is active, the hairs increase the effective diameter of the root.
(i) root hairs function mostly by water uptake through the root hair tip plane; 
(ii) the growth of root hairs, perpendicular to the root surface, expands the apparent diameter of the cylinder that is characterized by the root water potential, thereby increasing the effective surface area of the root for water uptake;
(iii) the growth of needle-shaped root hairs requires minimal investment in biomass with less mechanical resistance compared with alternative strategies that require larger root diameter or root length.


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 2, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> It appears only the tip plane of a root hair is active, the hairs increase the effective diameter of the root.
> (i) root hairs function mostly by water uptake through the root hair tip plane;
> (ii) the growth of root hairs, perpendicular to the root surface, expands the apparent diameter of the cylinder that is characterized by the root water potential, thereby increasing the effective surface area of the root for water uptake;
> (iii) the growth of needle-shaped root hairs requires minimal investment in biomass with less mechanical resistance compared with alternative strategies that require larger root diameter or root length.



so in practical terms, this increased transpiration would allow for closer light placement, correct? 

I'm also wondering how nutrient lockout would occur in the absence of any buildup...does it happen in the rez if your ph or formulations are out of whack?


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 2, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> It appears *only* the *tip* plane of a root hair is active, the hairs increase the effective diameter of the root.
> (i) root hairs function *mostly* by water uptake through the root hair tip plane;
> (ii) the growth of root hairs, perpendicular to the root surface, expands the apparent diameter of the cylinder that is characterized by the root water potential, thereby increasing the effective surface area of the root for water uptake;
> (iii) the growth of needle-shaped root hairs requires minimal investment in biomass with less mechanical resistance compared with alternative strategies that require larger root diameter or root length.


Only versus mostly. Pick one.

OK, *only *the surface area of the *tip* of the hair root. Figuring the tip area is the same as the area of a cross section of the shaft of the root hair then the tip area is still (for a finger nail size area of root uon which it grows) a very healthy 0.14 square feet.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 2, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> so in practical terms, this increased transpiration would allow for closer light placement, correct?
> 
> I'm also wondering how nutrient lockout would occur in the absence of any buildup...does it happen in the rez if your ph or formulations are out of whack?


To understand lock out you need to understand buffering, the electrical attraction of ions and pH. A simple explanation dealing with just basic (high pH) buffering portion: At low pH ie below 7.5 nearly all carbonates are bicarbonates (HCO3&#8722. They neutralize negative ions (basic pH causing ions). Initially bicarbonates are formed from carbonic acid (H2CO3), which is formed from dissolved CO2 in water. This quickly turns to Bicarbonate. 

The bicarbonate is the actual buffer. What is attached to that buffer is what is consider locked out. Bicarbonates are formed in water, very few are available as salts. For example Potassium bicarbonate is only formed in water it is not in nature found as a salt. 

Back to the subject. bicarbonate typically forms up in pairs (HCO3&#87222. This means it has a negative 2 charge. With a negative 2 charge that means it will glom (nice scientific word) onto a cationic ion with a two charge. IE it will draw a Ca++ or a Magnesium++ cation usually. Ca++ has a stronger charge than a Mg++ as it has a larger radius so typically the bicarbonate ties up the Calcium, especially as there is more Calcium present than Magnesium so it has a greater chance of bumping into (another great scientific expression) a calcium ion than a magnesium ion. 

A Potassium ion has only a plus one charge and simply can not compete as well in forming up with the bicarb unless they are in high numbers. Hence some manufacturers use a lot of Potassium versus a lot of calcium so as to have the excess potassium tied up instead of calcium and magnesium. Now the bones of the story: every time more + ions are taken up by the plants roots IE nitrate, a carbonate ion is released which gloms onto positive charged ion(s). IE tied up + ions and a higher pH as the balance has switch to less excess H+ protons.

The out of wack pH is simply a result of releases of H+ or (HCO3&#8722 by the roots in order to maintain a ionic balance. This causes a pH changes as pH is basically dependent on the amount of H+ protons above the number of OH- ions. This means if there are more extra H+ protons your pH will be acidic and if there are less H+ than OH- the pH will be basic (above pH 7). This is directly related in our nutrient water to the level of buffers so that directly ties in with the tied up ions. The tie up is also related to the fact that a 2+ ion has a strong attractive/holding force so it does not readily let go once formed into a bicarbonate compound.


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Only versus mostly. Pick one.
> 
> OK, *only *the surface area of the *tip* of the hair root. Figuring the tip area is the same as the area of a cross section of the shaft of the root hair then the tip area is still (for a finger nail size area of root uon which it grows) a very healthy 0.14 square feet.


I agree, not much info out there so we only have so much to go on (and most of that is contradictory lol). The roots hairs will be able to intercept maybe 350% more mist than a root without hairs so its not too shabby


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 2, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> I agree, not much info out there so we only have so much to go on (and most of that is contradictory lol). The roots hairs will be able to intercept maybe 350% more mist than a root without hairs so its not too shabby


It all translates to, at a low humidity and high heat plants with *good root systems* can transpire a great deal more and therefore are capable of transporting more nutrients and therefore growing faster *IF* there is also an adequate level of CO2 and enough lighting PAR for that faster growth.

I like long sentences. I have a really big chest (54 inches) with large lungs and I write like I speak. In a long winded fashion.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> To understand lock out you need to understand buffering, the electrical attraction of ions and pH. A simple explanation dealing with just basic (high pH) buffering portion: At low pH ie below 7.5 nearly all carbonates are bicarbonates (HCO3&#8722. They neutralize negative ions (basic pH causing ions). Initially bicarbonates are formed from carbonic acid (H2CO3), which is formed from dissolved CO2 in water. This quickly turns to Bicarbonate.
> 
> The bicarbonate is the actual buffer. What is attached to that buffer is what is consider locked out. Bicarbonates are formed in water, very few are available as salts. For example Potassium bicarbonate is only formed in water it is not in nature found as a salt.
> 
> ...


 
this might seem like a wierd question but in the absence of water around the roots do they still give off the H+ or Hco3- ions. i guess what im asking is when the roots recieve the mist and uptake the positive or negative charge and then release a charge since the roots are sitting in air is the charge released to air or do you think thethe roots must wait until the next drop of mist. 

why i ask is because the root system on one of my girls has gotten so large that at the current mist cycle i dont see any runoff for 4 hrs after lights on. the other ones have run off after just an hr or so. im wondering during this time what is going on with the root zone in the large one. the intial runoff after those 4 hrs or so on the large one always comes in low at around 5.6 where as the other 3 the ph always comes out at aroung 6.2 from the start. now by the end of the lights on cycle the large ones run off ph has come in line with the other 3 to 6.2. surprisingly the runoff ppm from the smallest to the largest is usually not more than 20ppm difference.

it sucks having them uneven but it has given me more data on how to build the new chambers to be able to control the flow to each chamber seperately to factor in the differences in plant growth among individuals.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 2, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> this might seem like a wierd question but in the absence of water around the roots do they still give off the H+ or Hco3- ions. i guess what im asking is when the roots recieve the mist and uptake the positive or negative charge and then release a charge since the roots are sitting in air is the charge released to air or do you think thethe roots must wait until the next drop of mist.
> 
> why i ask is because the root system on one of my girls has gotten so large that at the current mist cycle i dont see any runoff for 4 hrs after lights on. the other ones have run off after just an hr or so. im wondering during this time what is going on with the root zone in the large one. the intial runoff after those 4 hrs or so on the large one always comes in low at around 5.6 where as the other 3 the ph always comes out at aroung 6.2 from the start. now by the end of the lights on cycle the large ones run off ph has come in line with the other 3 to 6.2. surprisingly the runoff ppm from the smallest to the largest is usually not more than 20ppm difference.
> 
> it sucks having them uneven but it has given me more data on how to build the new chambers to be able to control the flow to each chamber seperately to factor in the differences in plant growth among individuals.


The only way the roots would not release excess carbonate ions or H+ protons is if there is no excess water to release them into. That would mean so liitle water that the roots actually suckup soo much water that they external suraces were dry immediattly after spraying. The palny ts sroots are obviously receiving more than that or they would ceases to live. Your plants are just rece veing enough water that the roots are releasing the excess carbonate ion or H+ protons and they just build up on the roots surface only to remixed with the next spraying, and then both the initial and the new amount would end up on the roots exterior surface etc untill an excess of fluids would allow the removal of all the carbonate or H+ protons from the roots exterior surface. You also have to consider that the size, position and bushiness of the palnts arealso going to determine the reatio of nitrate to ammonium nitrogen it takes up sand that will change the pH of the drainage water from each plant. Plus if the size difference is do to the larger palnt being a different phenotype its uptakes will also be different. 
Can you just up the size of the mister mainly feeding the largest plants roots, or is it impossible to access it with the plants and roots being too large? Or maybeput a Tee fitting on your feed line outside the pod and just install another small flow mister to feed the larger plant more.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The only way the roots would not release excess carbonate ions or H+ protons is if there is no excess water to release them into. That would mean so liitle water that the roots actually suckup soo much water that they external suraces were dry immediattly after spraying. The palny ts sroots are obviously receiving more than that or they would ceases to live. Your plants are just rece veing enough water that the roots are releasing the excess carbonate ion or H+ protons and they just build up on the roots surface only to remixed with the next spraying, and then both the initial and the new amount would end up on the roots exterior surface etc untill an excess of fluids would allow the removal of all the carbonate or H+ protons from the roots exterior surface. You also have to consider that the size, position and bushiness of the palnts arealso going to determine the reatio of nitrate to ammonium nitrogen it takes up sand that will change the pH of the drainage water from each plant. Plus if the size difference is do to the larger palnt being a different phenotype its uptakes will also be different.
> Can you just up the size of the mister mainly feeding the largest plants roots, or is it impossible to access it with the plants and roots being too large? Or maybeput a Tee fitting on your feed line outside the pod and just install another small flow mister to feed the larger plant more.


i have an individual ball valve going to each pod and have thought of turning the valve a litttle closed on the smaller ones and leaving the valve to the big one wide open then increasing the misting to all them. but im not sure it would work because with such a short mist pulse (.5 sec) and the length of tubing going to each pod im affraid this would result in no real mist but just more of a splash on the 3 with the valve closed a little.

im not sure the low runoff from the big one is actually affecting its growth just was wondering about the H released in the absence of water. if i think it is developing slower than the others than ill try something but for now in the absence of any visual evidence it is hindering it im going to just let it as is. i have increased the mist to .5 every 4.5 minutes instead of .5 every 5 minute and will continue decreasing the pause time as they get bigger to see what if any effect this has. im also going to be a little more aggressive on the ec level going into flower as last time these girls sister wasnt happy as the other three were and started yellowing and dropping fans to early. so this time im going to keep the nitrogen higher for a couple weeks in and also try and keep the overall ec a bit higher without causing any nute issues. the mother of these developed some nice fat fruit starting early so im sure these should follow thier mother.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 2, 2010)

what are you guys thoughts on putting a UV light filter tube that the res water would circulate through...

i think it would hurt the nutes and beneficial bacteria.

or would the beneficial bacteria stay on the roots, and then all water is kept sanitized by the UV light.

what do you think?


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 2, 2010)

i am getting this... and they have a uv light as an option. obviously, killing any bacteria before it goes into my clean water RO res is nice... but wondering if i should get an extra and just put that in the nute water res as well.

http://www.purewaterclub.com/

the 107 dollar one.

anyway... if you click it, you will see it comes with a needle valve... im wondering if that needle valve can pierce metal plumbing, or if its only for plastic.

im going to try and tie into my bathtub cold water line, and then just have this thing run all day, and have it dump into a big trash can or barrel.

thanks guys


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 2, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> To understand lock out you need to understand buffering, the electrical attraction of ions and pH. A simple explanation dealing with just basic (high pH) buffering portion: At low pH ie below 7.5 nearly all carbonates are bicarbonates (HCO3&#8722. They neutralize negative ions (basic pH causing ions). Initially bicarbonates are formed from carbonic acid (H2CO3), which is formed from dissolved CO2 in water. This quickly turns to Bicarbonate.
> 
> The bicarbonate is the actual buffer. What is attached to that buffer is what is consider locked out. Bicarbonates are formed in water, very few are available as salts. For example Potassium bicarbonate is only formed in water it is not in nature found as a salt.
> 
> ...


that makes sense...i had read about lockout in conjunction with salt buildup in growing media, but if i understand you correctly, the ions are tied up at the point of dissolution in the reservoir, if conditions are right.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 2, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> what are you guys thoughts on putting a UV light filter tube that the res water would circulate through...
> 
> i think it would hurt the nutes and beneficial bacteria.
> 
> ...


A chemical nutrient system is suppose to be kept bacteria, fungus, and enzyme free. The plants contains every thing in the way of bacteria and enzymes need and the chelated irion provides enough helators to provide cletaion effects for the other metals trace nutrients. IE what beneficail abcteris do you think you need in your reservoir. If you r considering beneficail enzymes for control of pythiium that is not need with a system where the roots are not lying in DO free water such as with small tube aero etc. As long as you use water that has been disinfected with chloirine to begin with there will be nopythium in a good system so the compost pile enzymes are more detrimental than helpful in chemical nutrient system. Orgab nic is organic and chemical is chemical. Neither system works as well in a reservoir when contaminated by the other.

If your considering anything you should be considering how to keep everything but the plants totally free of all bacteria, protozoa and enzymes etc. Such as maintaining a low ppm of chlorine residual in your nutrient water to kill any airborne bacteria that may be introduced.

UV lighting would be fine if you choose not to use chlorine or H2O2, but it will not kill any bacteria growing anywhere but in the water itself, where as chlorine or H2O2 will kill the bacteria on any surface contacted by the water containing it. IE pipes, reservoirs, pumps, sprayers/misters, chamber walls etc.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 2, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> that makes sense...i had read about lockout in conjunction with salt buildup in growing media, but if i understand you correctly, the ions are tied up at the point of dissolution in the reservoir, if conditions are right.


Lock out in soil is due to CEC or the formation of compounds that come from a negative ion being strongly attracted to attached tied up" by a compond with a positive charge, or vice versa. What I explained is basically the same thing but as it happens in a hydro system. In a hydro system it all revolves around Carbonic acids from dissolved CO2 or bicarbonates due to Carbonate releases by roots, or H+ protons. The end result is the same, compounds being formed with strong attractions meaning the compounds no longer want to be broken so therefore they are tied up or locked out. In soil though there can many more minerals in abundance forming compounds that have a strong CEC therefore tying up nutrients than in low pH nutrient water.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 3, 2010)

fatman... so im going to use an ro filter that will get rid of all chlorine i believe.

so, that being said...

how do i re introduce chlorine or h2o2, and does it hurt nutes? Ive heard chlorine and h202 can hurt AN nutes?

thanks fatman


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 3, 2010)

Chlorine only hurts organic nutes and organic supplements nor mineral/chemical nutrients. 

_*There is no nned to get rid of the chlorinw with a chemical nutrient system. There is a need to remove the chlorine so as to protect your RO membrane. Thin Film Membrane Ro membranes dteriate rapidly with exsposure to chlorine. However, the carbon pre filters remove the chlorine. *_

_*Chlorox bleach sold for home use: One drop is nominally considered equal to 0.06 ml, so it would 1.6 drops per gallon to add 0.10 ml (1 ppm). You want to initially add 1 to 2 ppm then maintain a residual level of 0.5 ppm. So intially add approx 1 teaspoon per 50 gallons of nutrients then drop down to 1/4 teaspoon every 24 to 36 hours with an aero system. I do not use H2O2 because it has no residual disinfection ability. H2O2 works instantly but is only good for treatment or disinfection but not preventative maintenance. Meaning H2O2 can not be used regularly so as to prevent problems but only treat them once they appear. Low doses of chlorine can prevent reinfestation or growth of pathogens just as it does in drinking water by maintaining residual amonunts in the water at all times.*_


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 4, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> i am getting this... and they have a uv light as an option. obviously, killing any bacteria before it goes into my clean water RO res is nice... but wondering if i should get an extra and just put that in the nute water res as well.
> 
> http://www.purewaterclub.com/
> 
> ...


if your water is cheap then it makes sense to just run it all day and not worry about all the waste water that is going to be produced getting you the RO water you want. but if water costs more or you have to pump your own from a well i would definetaly get a booster pump for the system as this really makes a difference in the total ro ouput and the amount of waste water. remember if it says 100 gallons a day output thats only at the right input pressure youll get that.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 4, 2010)

GrayRoanek said:


> Sherri, found this forum has lots of scholarly references about activation spectrum of cannabis. Haven't waded through them all. Main emphasis is flatter spectrums are better following the TOTAL activation spectra.
> 
> http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=158600&page=2


 
What it all boils down to is their is no one bulb that provides the perfect lighting. The closest is likely the Iwasaki 6500K, however it is not avialable above 400 watts. I use a combination of the 6500K bulbs (cheaper generic bulbs) and the common HPS bulbs. I use straight 6500 K lighting for cloning and the two weeks of vegging I allow while the cuttings are still in the cloning room.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 4, 2010)

Boosting the water temperature of the inlet water into a Ro filter system also increases efficiency and output. Generally though you don't want to raise the temperature above 113 degrees. You can boost pressure up to 125 psi. http://www.appliedmembranes.com/tfe.htm


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 4, 2010)

so any ideas on the best way to TAP into a hard metal water line going to my shower?

if the needle valve pictured in the link i supplied for the ro machine...

if that needle valve CANT pierce the metal pipe... 

then what i was considering doing was drilling a very tiny hole in the pipe with a drill bit, and then lining that needle valve up to that spot and clamping it on...

or just getting some other sort of clamp valve and clamping it on.

ideas?


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 4, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so any ideas on the best way to TAP into a hard metal water line going to my shower?
> 
> if the needle valve pictured in the link i supplied for the ro machine...
> 
> ...


The valve is made for tapping into copper pipe. Steel pipe would require drilling a hole.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 4, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The valve is made for tapping into copper pipe. Steel pipe would require drilling a hole.


 
so im guessing its steel... house was built in the 60's.

anyway... so if it is, i just drill the hole and then use that needle valve, or just get another valve that lacks the needle?

the needle valve comes with the kit... so it costs me more money to go out and buy another one, not that its a problem, just saying


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 4, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so im guessing its steel... house was built in the 60's.
> 
> anyway... so if it is, i just drill the hole and then use that needle valve, or just get another valve that lacks the needle?
> 
> the needle valve comes with the kit... so it costs me more money to go out and buy another one, not that its a problem, just saying


Just drill a hole large enough for the needle to fit through. A little larger is OK. Old galvanized steel pipe is a huge PITA to work with so don't even think about trying to simply take it apart and add a fitting for the water line. It usually takes a hack saw, pipe threader and some new fittings when ever you try to disassemble and then reassemble galvanized steel pipe that has been in place for 40 years. I would say it also takes a big pipe wrench and a full grown gorilla but that might anger a visiting plumber.


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 5, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so im guessing its steel... house was built in the 60's.


don't guess. if its galvanized, you'd be better off finding a different source than trying to tap into it. galvanized doesn't develop pinholes like copper does when it corrodes...the entire wall rusts away and you're likely to bust a section of the pipe wall away if you try to drill.

if its brown or greenish brown, it's copper.

if it's not copper, i would find a different source (and i'm a gorilla with a big pipe wrench ). most old houses like that have been repaired before and you're likely to find a better source somewhere else.

if worst comes to worse, hire a plumber to install it at the kitchen sink and say it's for drinking water, a common ro application.


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 5, 2010)

Mine is in the kitchen where the rising main enters the house, probably the best place to get maximum pressure. If you have a washing machine outlet under the sink, you can buy a Y adapter to split the supply to a dishwasher or ro unit. It may be completely different over there though


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Mar 5, 2010)

Damn guys... I get busy and don't check in and this thread is 79 pages??? So... I'm still back on page 40 catching up, but I just wanted to let ya'll know I wasn't dead or anything  

Can't say things are going fantastic, I had to slap together a quick and dirty DWC for the girls... And PH drift became a real problem  But I got the aero mostly going this week and things are turning back around... Though the first run will be a bit compromised for sure, it should still be decent though. 

Few more days of fiddling and I hope to have it mostly dialed... Got another parts order and I'll be reworking the feed/pump system a bit and getting the control system properly boxed up this weekend. With the greens were looking as nice as my electronics, but it's a learning process and I've spend many more years honing my craftsmanship then I've had greening my thumbs  

Glad all it well with everyone... I'll do my best to catch up in the next few days and resurrect my thread with some new pics and such. 


Cheers,

T.M.H.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 6, 2010)

The Mad Hatter said:


> Damn guys... I get busy and don't check in and this thread is 79 pages??? So... I'm still back on page 40 catching up, but I just wanted to let ya'll know I wasn't dead or anything
> 
> Can't say things are going fantastic, I had to slap together a quick and dirty DWC for the girls... And PH drift became a real problem  But I got the aero mostly going this week and things are turning back around... Though the first run will be a bit compromised for sure, it should still be decent though.
> 
> ...


glad your back was wondering what happened. dont worry about the learning curve you seem like a smart enough fellow to figure it out pretty quick. my second run is going ok. had some mistakes again but its all going into the knowledge bank for future withdrawls.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 7, 2010)

so im using 1 inch black rubber hose lines to connect my tubs in my aero dwc hybrid...

anyway...

im debating if i should put some sort of screen on the inside of the tub and try to prevent clogs from occuring within the 2 hoses that connect each tub to the other...

OR if i should just leave it alone for the screen will cause more clogs then no screen at all.

or if you have any other idea, let me know.

ive also considered putting like a VISOR over the port holes...

kind of like your dryer vent has outside your house, but a smaller version of

and that way, as the roots grow down, they get diverted away from the hole.

any ideas welcome...


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 7, 2010)

10 bucks says fatman will respond something like...

"if you drop substance x into the res by each hole, it will create a ph forcefield, insinerating roots, but you have to watch out because your nitrogen uptake will increase .0048 percent"

just messin fatman, you know we love you


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 7, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> glad your back was wondering what happened. dont worry about the learning curve you seem like a smart enough fellow to figure it out pretty quick. my second run is going ok. had some mistakes again but its all going into the knowledge bank for future withdrawls.


so how tall did your shrubs get? i would think you would be increasing breadth rather than length with your system...sort of like prolixus for mj


----------



## The Mad Hatter (Mar 7, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so im using 1 inch black rubber hose lines to connect my tubs in my aero dwc hybrid...
> 
> anyway...
> 
> ...


I think it was T.F. that told me roots will not grow through a silk screen, but water will pass freely...


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 7, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> so how tall did your shrubs get? i would think you would be increasing breadth rather than length with your system...sort of like prolixus for mj


last run i flipped at 30 inches and they pretty much stayed at that hieght .they went to around 3 ft wide.
this run i flipped at the same hieght and ive seen some streatch so far after 1 week but i can see them starting already to form tight clusters of leaves so im not sure if im going to get much streach out of these either.(these are different pheno than last run. these are sat dom were last run were indy dom) one interesting note i have a couple dirt girls of the same pheno im using to compare against the hp and you cant see any changes in growth pattern on them yet compared to the HP girls.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 7, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so im using 1 inch black rubber hose lines to connect my tubs in my aero dwc hybrid...
> 
> anyway...
> 
> ...


id look at what the recirc DWC guys do to get the best ideas on how to handle that situation. im sure they have tried everyway when dealing with that issue. im just guessing cause ive not looked into it but i would think to fine a screen might slow the flow to much.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 7, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> id look at what the recirc DWC guys do to get the best ideas on how to handle that situation. im sure they have tried everyway when dealing with that issue. im just guessing cause ive not looked into it but i would think to fine a screen might slow the flow to much.


yeah, i agree, i think a screen will slow the flow too much because my flows are... as fast as the pipe will let the water go from tub to tub.


ill experiment around with it a bit... im thinking i might just not guard it at all, and then every now and then, lift the lids, and pull all the roots out of the pipe, and see if that keeps them from clogging it up.



so another question i have... what does rust do to plants if it gets in the res water?

reason i ask, my sump pump im using is starting to rust down around the bottom , most of its all plastic, except for about an inch ring that is exposed metal... that is rusting.

should i spray it with rustolium or something?

or just let it go?

thanks


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 9, 2010)

rust? bad? thanks


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 9, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> rust? bad? thanks


 id assume it isnt good but that sounds like a question for fatman.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 9, 2010)

It will not be taken up by the plants but will tend to coat and clog things. Things wil turm a reddish brown. It is ferrous iron when dissolved in the water, but it is quickly oxodized by aeration and becomes ferric iron whih precipitates. There is also the chance that some of this will be chelated by the chelater added with the iron when the fertilizers was formulated. There is very likely more than enough chelater to supply chelation for all the metals plus more iron. 

H2O2 and Chlorine both would cause a rapid oxodation of any dissolved iron from the metal. This maens anytime you add either you should toss a little aquarium power head with a spomge filter on it into the resevoir to remove all the extra ferric iron before it gets a chance to coat surfaces and clog sprayers.

You might try going out and buying a piece of electrical shrink fit tubing larg enough to go completelr around the ring. Rings such as that will usually be just fine if you cut through part of the ring so as to slip on the shrink fit tubing. Then just slip the shrink fit around the ring and over lap the ends and put just a little silicone caulking in the over lap as most will squeeze out when you finally shrink the tubing. Reinstall the ring, then heat it up and let it shrink down tight. Put a healthy dab of silicone caulking in your screw holes and cover the srew haeds with silicone. The silicone uses acid as a catalyst but it is a weak acid so should really do very, very little pH change to a full reservoir of water even when using the pump minutes after applying the small amounts of silicone caulking that you wille using.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 9, 2010)

first place you lost me was on adding a sponge when adding chlorine... do this regardless of rust being in the tank, etc? every time chlorine is added? what do i put in/on the sponge?

second place you lost me was with the ring...

what would happen if i just sprayed it with some sort of industrial paint or rustolium? 

not good?

i dont think there is really a way to put tubing over the part of the pump that im talking about. Perhaps a tape i could wrap around a few times and melt with a hair dryer onto it?

thanks


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 9, 2010)

Maybe you could cover it some kind of epoxy paint/resin.. safe for potable water? It would stabilise the existing rust and also stop any water coming into contact with it.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 9, 2010)

I'm sorry, I always maintain a low residual level of chlorine and just naturally assume most people use either chlorine or H2O2 as a oxidizing disinfectant at some point in their grows for a preventative medicine against pythium, root rot, abd bacterial blossoms. In doing so the chlorine or H2O2 used would also oxidize the ferrous iron (soluble)and turn it into ferric iron (precitate/solid rust). The sponge is added as a filter sponge. It just has water drawn through it and thefore act as a reusable filter. It is then just taken out and rinsed out and reused as needed. You just put a sponge like this http://www.aquariumguys.com/hydro-ii-sponge.html, over a pump's inlet like this one http://www.aquariumguys.com/maxijet600.html .

I assumed the ring was just a band that was retaining something likely the inlet screen. If that was the case it could be removed and covered. A two part epoxy would work well. There are water safe two part epoxies made for repairing leaking water pipes that would work well. Most two part expoxies are not sold in small containers. There are alos liquid plastics that are sold for dipping tool handles into. They form a softer coating like polyethelene plastic.

The difficuty with the paint would be that it would be didfficult to get a water safe paint that would stick well to a rusted surface. Where as the thicker two part epoxies would cover the metal and overlap onto the plastic on each side of the ring, so in essence incapsulating the metal whether it stuck to it or not. A regular paint would not have the strength to do that.


----------



## GrayRoanek (Mar 9, 2010)

I know this subject is not pertient to HP aero, but, I think it appropriate for everyone currently on this thread.

Reading on a DWC journal, I noted the PH crept up about 1 everyday with a 6 gal. resevoir and mature plants using 1 gal. of liquid a day.

I thought of 2 reasons. First that the plants were using minerals causing the increase, which didn't make much sense. Then, I postulated that it WASN'T a closed system. They were introducing outside air containing CO2 into the air stone and nute res. The CO2 is retained by to nute solution as carbonic acid in ever increasing amount. So... wouldn't it be better to close the system and use, mostly, the res air space for the air pump supply? I assume it would correct injecting more and more CO2 into the nute supply.

This may show why DWCers replace the nute solution weekly or so. It's not lack of nutes but accumalation of carbonic acid. Any thoughts? 

On the ultrasonic transducer atomization front: I haven't had much success with Chinese suppliers. A Korean firm has the right transducers and I'm pondering rolling my own fixture, controller, power supply (yeah, the whole shebang). It's not rocket science. AND, I've learned from this journal that redundancy and power backup are critical features. Thanks.

Lastly, Sherri, yes some studies (unfortunately, I can't cite them) show ~23% more THC production with UVB lighting. Apparently, some cannibols are converted to THC. The paper is in the list I posted previously. In the '70s THC of 4% was intense. Today some strains are producing 20+%.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 10, 2010)

GrayRoanek said:


> I know this subject is not pertient to HP aero, but, I think it appropriate for everyone currently on this thread.
> 
> Reading on a DWC journal, I noted the PH crept up about 1 everyday with a 6 gal. resevoir and mature plants using 1 gal. of liquid a day.
> 
> ...


The introduction of ambient air CO2 will not cause Carbonic acid (dissolved CO2) accumulation. One reasons is there is an air water interface that maintains an equilibrium to prevent low DO or high dissolved CO2. Secondly carbonic acid is very short lived so it does not accumulate. Unless the levels of CO2 in the pumped in air or in the room are elevated then the reservoir water, if well aerated, will not have any carbonic acid formation. If youu add an increased PPM of CO2 to the room air where the reservoir is located, then carbonic acid will form and turn to a carbonate and then to a bicarbonate, and yada, yada, yada.

True it is not wise to have a nutrient reservoir in a room where artifically high levels of CO2 are maintained, especially as CO2 is a heavy gas and sinks to the floor where the dissolved level of CO2 in the form of carbonic acid will be a short term issue. It will only be a short term issue because the carbonic acid will quickly become a bicarbonate with a negative charge, which will be short term as calcium or magnesium will combined with the carbonate forming calcium bicarbonate or magnesium or even potassium bicarbonate. So in the end run the pH will not be lowered but raised and important ions will become locked up. IE anyone who uses CO2 should* not* have reservoirs in the room where they are boosting the CO2. 

In a typical situation the carbonate is released by the roots to maintain an ionic balance. This typically means the plant is taking up more nitrate (neg charged ions) than positive ions so it releases carbonate ions that end up rapidly turning to bicarbonate which locks up some of the positive charged ions magnesium, calcium or potassium so the pH goes up.

On he p other hand if your plany ts take up alot of ammonium ion the H+ protons will be released by the plants roots leading to the formation of phosphoric acid (H3PO4) due to the acid tying up of the phosphorus neg ion the ion balance will swing to more excess H+ protons so the pH will go down.

Isn't nutrient water chemistry fun.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 10, 2010)

so which do you think would be worse...

if i let the metal rust...

or if i coated it with some sort of rustoleum paint.... very thick.

would one of those deisel fuel, fuel tank filter white catch sacks work to filter out the iron?

Or how bout a 20 micron filter?

thanks


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> so which do you think would be worse...
> 
> if i let the metal rust...
> 
> ...


I would paint that rust ending type paint and bake out any chemicals in the paint by putting it next to a grow light for a while so it's a bit warm for a few hours. Don't melt stuff... (But I don't actually know what rust would do.) Or plasti dip maybe but get all rust off first, it's been used in grows before don't heat that much at all though.


While I'm here has anyone ever used bio balls as grow media before and figured out how to best water it or which shape may flow water the most evenly from say a top drip dwc. (I'm not at aero yet, playing in my kiddie pools.)

Or perhaps would you want to fill a whole bin with them so they are underwater and trap air all over them, if you were using a mesh mod to create super oxygenated micro bubbles in a dwc system, which also has air stones with a high volume air pump?

Or would it even be beneficial to fill the bins and reduce water flow maybe in areas, not really short on air in the water anymore am I? 

I went around the high cost huge needle wheel pump fatman, what do you think of "mesh mod" on 1/4hp normal cheap spa pump? (trying to keep cost down) Or should I go with Iwaki wmd70 or 100 or something? If needed...

Anything else I could ever do better with dwc? Electrolysis to split smaller o2? Positive/negative charge something? Some of this was discussed already somewhere I think, can't find, memory sucks.

Ideal air bubble sizes?


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 10, 2010)

I wouldn't use a rustoleum based paint in a reservoir. Usually rust prevention paints are very high in chromium. Chromium is needed by plants and humans in very, very small quanities. It is toxic at high levels. Not something you want taken up to any large extent by a substance you intend to smoke.


http://www.epa.gov/ttn/atw/hlthef/chromium.html


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 10, 2010)

Dude you are fast... I edited my post with more questions at the same time as you were answering.


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 10, 2010)

bio balls are so damn expensive is the only problem.

for the money you spend on those... you can spend half as much, and get some 70 cent sprayers, a 50 psi pump from harborfreight, and some aeration tubing... and some 20 dollar huge rubber maid tubs... and a solenoid valve off ebay for under 70 bucks... and a cap timer for 70 bucks.... and then a relay for the solenoid valve and cap timer... allowing the pump to run all the time, and diver water back to the res when its not spraying the sprayers...

all that being said... you can have a strong system for less money than filling 2 tubs with bio balls.

and it will probably work better. Just my 2 cents logic why i didnt go that route


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 10, 2010)

plasti drip huh?

never heard of it. Sells at lowes?

baking under a light get out the chomium from rustolium or other paints?

thanks both of you


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 10, 2010)

ps, i need a low volume tiny pump that can pump up 30 ft... so like a 10 or 20 psi pump... but not expensive at all... its just to transfer a small flow rate of water... UP


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 10, 2010)

well thanks treefarmer again for posting your journal...you and fatman got me started on this hydro thing. i got my setup running and i swear i could just sit all day and stare at those fuzzy roots.

you are the men.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 10, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> I would paint that rust ending type paint and bake out any chemicals in the paint by putting it next to a grow light for a while so it's a bit warm for a few hours. Don't melt stuff... (But I don't actually know what rust would do.) Or plasti dip maybe but get all rust off first, it's been used in grows before don't heat that much at all though.
> 
> 
> While I'm here has anyone ever used bio balls as grow media before and figured out how to best water it or which shape may flow water the most evenly from say a top drip dwc. (I'm not at aero yet, playing in my kiddie pools.)
> ...


The issue of DO with DWC is really over blown. The only real concern is one supply for the O2 levels of the plants. That is really not a large need, and secondly supply enough additional DO to assure that the system stays aerobic rather than anerobic (low or zero DO). It is easy to supply that need with just about any aeration method. 

What complcates the issue is other sytems where the water actually leaves the reservoir and can actually become totally void of DO in some flow areas ie aero tubes, NTF trays, the nooks and crannies in ebb and flow beds etc. That is what has to be prevented and high DO just nakes it easier. The easiest method by far is to just not to build such a shitty system. 

DWC systems where you see hugh pumps and external reservoirs and massive circulation pumpps and such is very gross overkill. In a straight DWC if you keep the DO above about 3 or 4 ppm there is really no advanatage of a higher DO unless you are using organic nutrients or you do not every change nutrient fli uids and therefore have a lot od dead roots decaying in the sytem. Roots are always dieing (especially hair roots). 

Now consider that normal water without plants will have a DO of about 8 to 8.5 at normal room temps. One large (1/4 hp) mesh or needle wheel pump with a venturi will easily keep a 150 to 200 sq foot room full of DWC reservoirs at a DO of 8 ppm as long as the water is kept in circulation between all the reservoirs. That is at least twice as high as the DO needs to be so that is quite a large safety factor to make up for the oxygen needs of the aerobic bacteria that develops in the system due to all the the root matter.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 10, 2010)

sherriberry said:


> plasti drip huh?
> 
> never heard of it. Sells at lowes?
> 
> ...


Chromium is a metal, it does not bake out. The baking of paints is to release the solvents in the paint more quickly. Other wise about 85% quickly out gasses but the last 15% is only slowly releases as the paint ages.


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 10, 2010)

Thanks Fatman.

My thinking was that higher than normal o2 in the water may make the system more flexible on ambient temps, is the idea. DD's system drops yield if not in a perfect environment and from other grows I had seen before with other media people have pulled off high yields without giving much care at all to ambient temps depending on strain.

I have felt like I've gotten more than I should have at times when I didn't have things right at all in my soil grows as long as the soil temps were not too bad, but I haven't seen dwc gain yield with higher temps in anything I've browsed before. 

I knew about the dying roots, the gasses they give off, listened to you before. Then in my research I tracked down a patent on the best way to degass impurities from super oxygenated water, it just boiled down to throw large bubbles through it. So, that was the reason to include the air stones with supersaturated water, not for air. And the bio balls also appear to have potential to help in the same way and more.


Plus the large bubbles also stimulate the roots, keep things moving more, don't let the micro bubbles just sit in one place in my micro testing it kicks them off and stirs things great. Without the large bubbles everything gets covered in a froth of little bubbles that never move and just stick to everything.


Krusty grows did things that have made me think and wonder for a long time comparing to actual dwc, and they had insane o2 and there was a whole lot of root stimulation. Mix that idea with what you have seen when rotary grows move things around. I don't want to shred roots etc but find the sweet spot.

Grows like you diss with big water pumps, big air pumps, those have appeared to gain over standard dwc like you speak of and I think it's because of movement also. Am I off base, or have you given up too soon on dwc and just not believed anything you've seen at all? I know you don't believe yields, but I'm a picture is worth a thousand words guy. Remember that fight you had with me? Some impressive things have passed my browser window, and I'm always wondering why did that work or why did that look so good when. I'm not arguing, asking your opinion which I greatly value even if it's still likely not what I want to hear. Lets say yields aside and pictures only why did certain things look so good compared to others. Not cut buds, but like the old krusty pic with the plant in tact but with no leaves where you could see more bud than dd's pics? 


Yes Sherryberry plastidip is everywhere just ask for it at any decent size store. The bio balls are not that expensive when you buy in bulk, and we would need enough to get bulk prices. 20 gallons for $100 I don't think is a really big deal, even if tossed ea cycle. The things I have read make me think they will pay off. 



I have had it with hydroton and lava, just had it. I don't care on cost on that one part. And they could probably be reused if you cared enough...


----------



## sherriberry (Mar 10, 2010)

let me know when you find them in bulk... i looked on alibaba.com assuming they were made in china... but theres a couple different kinds...

the actual BALLS that are kind of solid with a hallow in the middle... they are everywhere on there... but the kind we want to use that have the 100 drip points, i remember having trouble finding those

if a person had those, and just wrapped some aeration hose around in a loop around the top of the tub on top of the balls, it would create the perfect dripper all the way down i think.

i would honestly like to put it up head to head against my setup im making... which would be easy... instead of putting the sprayers in there... i just fill one of the tubs with bio balls, and still have the dwc flowing by in the bottom 4 inches of the 20 inch tall tub filled with bio balls.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 14, 2010)

thanks to the powers that be for opening the thread back up. ok guys lets keep the discusion about Hp aero and how it relates to what this thread is about. learning more about these systems, and how to setup and operate them properly. its great to hear others opinions and experiences when dealing with this subject as we all know there is not much info out there and very few actual systems running. lets just keep it civilized and everything will be good.

heres a pic of how the roots are coming along on this run. they are less than ideal but with the misters down low for quite awhile and the slight overmisting i was doing and the bioballs slowing the flow down they have bunched up alot this run down low and in the corners. 

the biobals are pretty well engulfed on the floor. i think they would be great for a drip system or even flood and drain but not for chamber floors in hp. ill be going back to my elevated fake silk screen bottoms in the new chambers. i had to make compromises to make sure i could finish the run. with the new chambers i shouldnt have to worry about those problems as they will be at least 4 times bigger.


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 14, 2010)

I'm happy it's back open so fast.
I was thinking a new thread might be in order though too if this had stayed closed, I am going to need help.

I have to try this...


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 14, 2010)

Hi TF
Good to see the thread back up and running, high pressure aero information is very thin on the ground. 
Your roots look great, its a pity the bioballs didn`t work quite as planned but nothing ventured is nothing gained. 
You deserve credit for taking one for the team by giving it a go...bioballs are pretty expensive


----------



## growman 5000 (Mar 15, 2010)

wow, im new to this forum, i usually hang out over on another, and doing some looking around over here, and those roots are sweet dude! If you dont mind me asking, how the yeilds get affected vs a good dwc grow? Im sure they have to be larger. How long have you been doing aero, and how expensive is it to maybe build a couple pods like what you have?

I've been doing dwc for a couple years now, and aero just scares me because I hear if i mess something up even slightly, then my plants are toast. Those roots are sweet, would love to see some pics of a plant and bud size. Goodluck to you, great thread, im still on the early pages, but Im going to try to catch up. All the questions i just asked are probably answered in the thread, if so, sorry in advance. Peace


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 15, 2010)

growman 5000 said:


> wow, im new to this forum, i usually hang out over on another, and doing some looking around over here, and those roots are sweet dude! If you dont mind me asking, how the yeilds get affected vs a good dwc grow? Im sure they have to be larger. How long have you been doing aero, and how expensive is it to maybe build a couple pods like what you have?
> 
> I've been doing dwc for a couple years now, and aero just scares me because I hear if i mess something up even slightly, then my plants are toast. Those roots are sweet, would love to see some pics of a plant and bud size. Goodluck to you, great thread, im still on the early pages, but Im going to try to catch up. All the questions i just asked are probably answered in the thread, if so, sorry in advance. Peace


 ive never run dwc so i couldnt tell you plus youd have to run the same strain side by side to get an answer to that question. been doing one form or another of aero for along time. only recently started using this system so cant tell you how its going to turn out cause im still learning this style. ill need a few runs before i can even begin to draw any conclusions.

yea it is expense to do it right but i dont feel it is any more prone to failure than any other system if built properly. takes time to learn to run it properly but any new system takes that. hell even dirt done right takes some learning.


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 15, 2010)

atomizer did you ever get that cylinder running?


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 15, 2010)

Hi Clydefrog,
I have all the parts to build it, including some unusual hardware i bought last week. Just waiting for better weather to put everything together.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 17, 2010)

Ba da, ba da, BOOM BOOM BOOM. My forced vacation has ended. Why did the thread get closed. Hell, I wasn't even around to cause it.


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 18, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Ba da, ba da, BOOM BOOM BOOM. My forced vacation has ended. Why did the thread get closed. Hell, I wasn't even around to cause it.


glad to have you back.

a cia spook with multiple identities kept lurking about.

so i've got my iwaki 30rzt...and it puts out 4.5 gpm at 22 psi. whats going to happen if i run it constantly in my new cloning machine at only .13 gpm? bad for the pump or does it not really matter?


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 18, 2010)

It was temporarily closed because it was headed for the special olympics.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 19, 2010)

PetFlora said:


> _Why no grow pics? I have plenty in my journal. I get grief from a few accum zealots, but none have shown me pics to prove my set up (everything but the pressure tank aspect) is that far off. Come by and say hi, Feel free to add *useful *commentary, but please support it with grow pics. _
> 
> 
> please stop posting links to your grow journal at another site on this thread. you know that is against forum rules. your last one got removed as im sure this one will also. or maybe worse youll get banned. this thread is to share information about HP aero if you have some to contribute fine but if not then dont post here.
> ...


----------



## AeroTrek (Mar 19, 2010)

Hey guys,

I just finished reading through your entire thread Tree Farmer and found it to be the most informative thread on Actual Aeroponic growing (not the so called True Aeroponic growing). Between the three of you guys (Tree Farmer the practicioner; Fatman the chemist; and Atomizer the electronics controller/mathematician) you guys have pretty much all of it covered. Well done.

I've been interested in the system for a while, but have found little information on Actual Aeroponics other than the information "TAG" which I consider a hybrid system in most cases. I have been looking into atomizing nozzles as all you have and happened on a picture of a Atomix nozzle which I scooped from uk420 site. 

Unfortunately I have not been able to figure out how to insert it in this post. If you could direct me that would be great.

Keep up the great work guys.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 20, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> glad to have you back.
> 
> a cia spook with multiple identities kept lurking about.
> 
> so i've got my iwaki 30rzt...and it puts out 4.5 gpm at 22 psi. whats going to happen if i run it constantly in my new cloning machine at only .13 gpm? bad for the pump or does it not really matter?


It is a mag drive pump so it will be fine. but the pump motor might be a bit warmer than you might like. The pump is made to pump against high head pressures so it will not mind the throttling. It should put out its max pressure due to the throttling. Is the 0.13 gpm a constant flow. That is only 7.8 gph. 

Here is the pump curve chart link for that pump. 

http://www.iwakiwalchem.com/Literature/MD_WMD/30RZcrv.pdf

As you can see by the curve nearest the left hand side as the head pressure increases through pumping to tall heights or a huge amount of resistance the pump flow decreases exponentially. This means low flow which is all you need. However as the pressure follows the principal of Flow=Velocity * Area, or Flow/Area=Velocity, as you decreaase the area of the flow (small sprayer holes you increase the velocity (basically the speed/pressure). So while you are decreasing the flow your area is even a larger decrease so you will still get max pressure. If your pump gets too warm in your opinion then just put in a Tee fitting on the pipe going to the misters and put a small gate valve on a pipe leading back to the reservoir. Open it slowly until you see a slight decrease in the flow from your misters. When you see that close the valve just a little to restore the full fine droplet spray. This will lower the pressure head enough to allow the motor to run cooler but still give you the pressure needed for small droplet spray. 

IE the equation: Consider a flow of say the full 270 gph (36 ft^3/hr) or (17.28 in^3/sec) at an unrestricted flow through the 3/4" discharge. Area is pi * (0.75/2)^2=0.44 inches square. This means your velocity would be V= 17.28/0.44=39 inches/sec. Not bad at all. But now consider dropping the total discharge area down to say 1/16 inches in diameter. That means 0.012 square inches. This would theoretically mean 17.28/0.012= 1440 inches per second (82 miles per hour). Obviously your velocity will not be that high as you stated a flow of 0.13 gpm. That is 0.582 in^3 /second. If that is the case your velocity would be: 0.582/0.012=48 inches per second. Considering the pump delivers at it's standard un restricted flow a velocity of 39 inches per second then the increase of velocity just 23% is not going to be much of an issue with the pump. Now if the pump could actually push 270 gallons per hour through a 1/16 diameter hole that would be one hell of a mag drive pump.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 20, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I just finished reading through your entire threat Tree Farmer and found it to be the most informative thread on Actual Aeroponic growing (not the so called True Aeroponic growing). Between the three of you guys (Tree Farmer the practicioner; Fatman the chemist; and Atomizer the electronics controller/mathematician) you guys have pretty much all of it covered. Well done.
> 
> ...


just click on "post reply" on the top or bottom of the page and then scroll down to where it says "manage attachments" and click on that. another window will appear where you can click on" browse" to upload the pic from your computer or from the internet.

glad you stopped by. are you looking to build an air assited hp system.
i wouldnt mind building one also but they wouldnt be cheap to build and i feel a well designed pump based system can deliver roots as nice as the atomix. the pump based systems arent any cheaper really though but for me less of a learning curve since im very familiar with pump based systems.


----------



## growman 5000 (Mar 20, 2010)

right behind you aerotrek...

i just finished reading this thread... wow!

I did a bit of searching for these iwaki pumps you guys recomend, and i stumbled onto something...

they make a MD-70rz, or rlz (but it appears they are the same)

This pump is an iwaki pump, and does 40+ psi, the most of any of their mag drive pumps.

So i did a bit of checking around, and there were 2 used on ebay, 1 for 100 bucks, and the other for about 40. The 40 dollar one is still for sale, i didnt buy it, but it needs a new impeller they say, but judging by the iwaki site, the impeller can be bought and replaced for cheap, so you guys might check into buying it.

Im a dwc guy... i assume sherriberry is gone? Tried emailing him/her, and nothing happens.

I liked the diagram of the tubs they linked a while back. As i go aero, i might use that sort of a setup, that way if things arent working out, i can just say F### it, and flood the tubs, and go back to dwc in the middle of the grow 

Im going to read through the thread again, as i know i had questions, but most of them i am figuring out.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 20, 2010)

growman 5000 said:


> right behind you aerotrek...
> 
> i just finished reading this thread... wow!
> 
> ...


The MD-70RZ(T) is a very good pump but it is larger than most growers need. It will handle at least 100 2.5 gph misters at about 35 to 40 psi. Or about 70 low pressure 10 gph low pressure sprayers with a full good spray. It does have the davantage of hai ving enough pressure tat it can be place in your basement with your grow room on the main floor. It can pumpover 60 feet up ie several floors and still have good pressure. Or on the same floor butat the other end of your house where the resrvoir can stay cool. 

They normally retail for $400 to $500. The amount of them that have been showing up on ebay lately has really gone up since they are being mentioned in the growing forums. Surprisingly the prices are staying pretty low. You have to undersy tand though that the pressure of the 70-RZ is about 5 to 10 times the pressure of the typical high flow low pressure pumps used by most of the growers like Earl and such who grow aero where the roots are nearly totally rooted way by harvest time. 

The droplet size and spray paterns are completely different with the 40 psi pump. Not the really fine droplets of the HP misters at 70 psi, but a hell of a lot better than the little cheapy 10 gph sprayers used by the low pressure guys.


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 20, 2010)

New impeller needed? Bah, mesh mod that sucker and it would be good for other uses. Otherwise just buy one that works. I have my eye on a pair locally for $50 ea and they work, i just haven't decided if that's the best way and I think fatman just answered that for me.


----------



## AeroTrek (Mar 20, 2010)

Hi Tree Farmer,

Thanks for the directions...The picture was taken by an Atomix owner. Many of the features shown on the nozzle went against what I originally thought. For example, when searching for nozzles I assumed they would be stainless steel and put out a full cone spray. I always knew they would be siphon as shown on pictures of the complete unit.

A little background info. At one time I owned a 2 acre piece of land with home. The back acre I never used and only contained 6 to 7 foot pines. One spring I decided to plant a few sativas back there. It was a perfect growing area because it was a high water table and the pines would shield them from the neighbors...or so I thought. By the end of summer paranoia set in because they over took the pines and were clearly visable from the house. I couldn't do that anymore because the owner of the engineering company I worked for lived close enough that if he knew what to look for would have definetly seen them.

I did some DWC after that and had good results but always believed there had to be a better way. Thats basically where the story ends...I had to sell the home when the ex and I went different ways. I moved to a small apartment which I found impractical for the equipment required.

Yes, I will be building a Aero unit but not for another 3 months as I will be moving back into a house again (my own). But, I thought I could do all the research on these sytems so that I'm better prepared.

The main expense of these systems seem to be in the nozzles and "dental compressors" if you want to keep the noise down. I have located the same type of nozzles but made in PVC material which may bring the cost down considerably. I'll get back to you once I find out where I stored it on my computer.

In any case I have been trying to determine the idea volume of nutes required per square foot of area for a given spray cycle. This way I choose a nozzle that works within those perameters. Fatman was on the right path when he spoke of the rate the plant transpired in relation to the temp, humidity, lumens and co2. The plant would have to make up what its losing buy taking in more nutes. There is a relation there that I have not been able to put my finger on...or at least the ratio of each. Give me some time.

Keep it growing...


----------



## mindphuk (Mar 20, 2010)

I have an old MAK 40LX pump that is just the old model number for the Gen-X PCX-40. I know when I got it, it was comparable to the Iwaki. There's some corrosion on the outside casing. PM me if anyone is interested.


----------



## growman 5000 (Mar 20, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> New impeller needed? Bah, mesh mod that sucker and it would be good for other uses. Otherwise just buy one that works. I have my eye on a pair locally for $50 ea and they work, i just haven't decided if that's the best way and I think fatman just answered that for me.


 
Explain Mesh mod please? Do you think it would create full pressure, or what do you think it would lack if just left as it is?


----------



## growman 5000 (Mar 20, 2010)

Just double checking, are these the sprayers everyone would still recomend for a 40 psi iwaki pump?

http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=553

None of you who have gone to super high pressure have any of these misters laying around do you? Im about to put in an order for some, but cheaper is always better.


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 21, 2010)

Mesh mod is grinding the vanes off the impeller or otherwise replacing the face with mesh rather than plastic. The mesh can be anything from green scrubber pads stacked and sewn to the face of the impeller or just zip tied on. There's also better mesh you can order off ebay or meshmod.net or org or whatever. Google mesh mod or look it up on youtube or something. Nobody in the grow world does it that I know of yet but I mentioned it a few weeks back as an alternative to a large expensive needle wheel pump like the Reeflo Orca when Fatman suggested that pump for large scale dwc using a needle wheel pump/venturi setup rather than an air pump and stones. Reeflo orca is something like $500, but a mesh modded normal pump would actually work better and be a lot cheaper.


I seem to get more pressure out of the pumps I have modded with very tight mesh like the scrubber pads, but other materials with larger mesh you would get less, it's up to you. It's probably more appropriate for dwc though or just to reuse an otherwise broken pump for water transfer, not really for high pressure apps.


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 21, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> It is a mag drive pump so it will be fine. but the pump motor might be a bit warmer than you might like. .


thanks again for the info. if its ok to throw another iwaki q at you...(in the bud room this time)

i'm cycling my solenoid system right now like you suggested and with all the drippage i'm getting i'm having to recirc my nutrients.

would cycling the pump instead hurt it? right now I'm spraying on for 20 sec...off for 4 min and the plants are responding really well. so i'd be kicking the pump on 15 times an hour instead of running constantly.

thanks again for the help.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 21, 2010)

I would just consider using a second solenoid before I considered cycling the pump. Vane type pumps do not hold out well with frequent cycling. They make what are called divertor solenoid valves or three way divertor valves. They would work ideally in your setup but they are more expensive in general than just using two solenoid valves plus they typically are not avilable in any larger sizes. I have an extra Plastomatic divertor valve. I thought I got it at an excellent price at $85 with shipping from an eBay seller. It is only a 1/2" valve with a 1/4" orifice and is rated at 40 psi. However a two way 40 psi valve the same size with the same orifice size is rated at 100 psi and costs $100 on eBay or about $145 from a retailer. The water contact surfaces are all plastic/rubber, no metal contact. Hayward makes really good 2 way solenoid valves but the are also expensive, but cheaper than plastomatic on ebay. Retail the 3/4" or 1" 110 volt run about $325, and the 1/2" 24 volt runs about $310. Either the 1/2" 24 Volt or the 1" would work well but the 3/4" is too expensive. So that means the likely best choice for a second solenoid would be the 1" Hayward solenoid. The 24 volt would require a 24 volt transformer and a relay if your timer is a 110volt out put so the costs would be about the same if you have to buy those components. The wattage is only 19 to 22 watts so a relay would not be need for the 100 volt solenoid.

*See** my PM*.

I use a lot of Hayward valves, both 24 volt and 110 volt depending on the Ebay costs. I just bought 12 1/2" 24 volt valves just a few weeks ago. I also use Hayward 110 volt 3 way actuated ball valves for reef tanks. I have never been disappointed in performance of any Hayward valves. Plastomatic are exceptional also but are not as common so are not available as cheaply on ebay. Plastomatic does have a broader range of products in the way of industrial grade valves than Hayward.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 21, 2010)

growman 5000 said:


> Just double checking, are these the sprayers everyone would still recomend for a 40 psi iwaki pump?
> 
> http://www.dripirrigation.com/drip_irrigation_info.php?cPath=43&products_id=553
> 
> None of you who have gone to super high pressure have any of these misters laying around do you? Im about to put in an order for some, but cheaper is always better.


Yes those are the right misters.

*No offense intended, but if you guys are going to keep asking questions about medium prsessure systems with Iwaki pumps and divertor solenoids valves it would probably be better to open a seperate thread. Something like Medium Pressure Aero with Divertor Valves.* This would keep the discussion in this thread more within the scope of the thread title. I know I started the scope creep but at the time the thread was small and I thought the medium pressure aspect would not draw attention but just get some opinions from Tree Farmer and Atomizer. I doid not expect it to grow from there.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 21, 2010)

growman 5000 said:


> Explain Mesh mod please? Do you think it would create full pressure, or what do you think it would lack if just left as it is?


Mesh modding is a way of making a air chopping pump out of a standard pump. It is used instead of a needle valve pump. The reason is to chop larger bubbles into smaller bubbles. It is used usually in conjunction with a venturi valve that draws in air. The air is then chopped into many very, very small bubbles. The air not the pump drops the flow and pressure. It would only make sense though that the needle wheels and mesh mod pumps are less efficient at producing water volume and pressure than a standard pump impeller. These systems are more geared for NTF and DWC systems, or other ssytems where a high DO is desired in the reservoir or in running water from a resrvoir. High DI in a high pressure or medium prssure reservoir is not of any benefit. The water just needs enough DO to not support anaerobic bacteria (oxygen hating). The spraying action in a medium or high pressure aero mist assures a very high DO nutrient solution is delivered to the aero roots. 

Again, not trying to be an *ss hole, but this is also a topic that would be more appropriattely covered in a new thread as mentioned above.


----------



## AeroTrek (Mar 21, 2010)

Tree Farmer,

Below is the PVC atomizing nozzles I mentioned previously. Does the black flat spray (PVC) pictured look familiar? If you compare to the Atomix nozzle you will find the nozzle itself seems to be PVC and the body stainless steel. The nozzle bodies are available in PVC as well. This should bring the the complete nozzle cost down.

www.pnramerica.com/pdfs/p57.pdf

What I need now is the numbers to better decide what nozzle size best suits the application.

Keep it growing...


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 21, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Yes those are the right misters.
> 
> *No offense intended, but if you guys are going to keep asking questions about medium prsessure systems with Iwaki pumps and divertor solenoids valves it would probably be better to open a seperate thread. Something like Medium Pressure Aero with Divertor Valves.* This would keep the discussion in this thread more within the scope of the thread title. I know I started the scope creep but at the time the thread was small and I thought the medium pressure aspect would not draw attention but just get some opinions from Tree Farmer and Atomizer. I doid not expect it to grow from there.


that's fine...i'm taking some pics of my setup tomorrow and i'll get one started. i got your pm...i've got a spare asco stainless 3/4 i might put on there, but after this cycle i'm gonna go accumulator hp since it seems to be the most water/nutrient/growth efficient.


----------



## growman 5000 (Mar 21, 2010)

in response to he dripping problem, and the diverter valve fatman mentioned,

What about if instead you used 2 solenoid valves, and had them as oposite on off's, and if you only have 2 solenoid valves that are both the same normally open or normally closed, then attach one to a relay as mentioned about 10 pages back, so that when one opens, the other closes, and visa versa.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 21, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Tree Farmer,
> 
> Below is the PVC atomizing nozzles I mentioned previously. Does the black flat spray (PVC) pictured look familiar? If you compare to the Atomix nozzle you will find the nozzle itself seems to be PVC and the body stainless steel. The nozzle bodies are available in PVC as well. This should bring the the complete nozzle cost down.
> 
> ...


they look similar. i think in the end youll find that the amount of thruput you put thru the nozzles in any given chamber size depends totaly on the placement of the nozzles, the number of plants per chamber and the stage of growth. 

with the air assisted you can vary the input air pressure as well as the timer settings to get what you need i would think from most of these AAN(air assisted nozzles). 

id deciede on a chamber size and then talk to a tech rep and ask him to refer you to a nozzle or 2 that could fill that volume with 30-80 micron droplets at a reasonable air pressure with in a few seconds at most.

then it will come down to fine tuning the air pressure and timing cycles by observing the roots to determine when you have it dialed in correctly.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 21, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> that's fine...i'm taking some pics of my setup tomorrow and i'll get one started. i got your pm...i've got a spare asco stainless 3/4 i might put on there, but after this cycle i'm gonna go accumulator hp since it seems to be the most water/nutrient/growth efficient.


Actually the most efficient is the air assisted atomized sprayers as it is more efficient to compress air than a fluid which is seesentially in compressible. That means your really just compressing the air in the accululators air bladder. The pumps used for the accumulator are more economical then the oil less air compressors though. But then the air atomizers systems allow for much more fine tuning as you can use different nozzle sizes plus you can vary the output from the nozzles by vary the nutrient feed hi s eight and by varyingthe air pressure and or air volume.

Really though the principal thing to look at is what will give you the ultimate water droplet size and either system can do that. Which system allows the chamber to be entirely filled with the water droplets and both can do that. Both can put out spray for short periods of time. Both with a solenoid for each sprayer allows variation of spray for each nozzle if needed. The HP accumulator system is limited by the more limited usable nozzles available but their nozzles are also a lot cheaper. So the most efficient and most adjustable is the air atomized but it also if using all new retailed parts is also about 4 times the cost, maybe a bit more.

Both systems can be used equally efficient for a drain to wast system. This eliminates trying to keep reservoir water adjusted or trying to maintain eservoir DO. Themperatures are not even a problem for the reservoir as log as you can keep the temps at the plant temp or down to about 15 or 20 degress below that. Chlorine can be easily used to control bacteria in either system.

Buying major components on eBay allows for the construction of an air atomized sytem for about 150% to 200% of the cost of a HP accumulator tank system. The cost of shipping a compressor and the larger heavier air storage tank adds to the costs real quick.


----------



## Dude Man (Mar 22, 2010)

I like your set up it looks great!!!

could you point me to some good nut info?

i am using PBP,
I am tring to use the premix caculator, but ran in to some trouble?


i use to just go by the lable but i can tell from reading i can't get away with that here.

any help would be great...


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 22, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> I like your set up it looks great!!!
> 
> could you point me to some good nut info?
> 
> ...


if your trying to run a hp system youll need to keep the ppm of the solution lower than your use to. you need to have a meter to really see what level your feeding. i wouldnt recommend the label ppm level for HP aero.

if you dont have or cant get a meter start out with maybe 15-20 percent of whats recommended for normal hydro and then work up slowly. if you have a meter then start at 100ppm or less for a rooted clone. this only applies if your running a high pressure mist with short mist cycles(under 2 secconds) any more than that and you can run somewhat higher numbers.

here is a couple threads you can find some info about different nutrient ratios.
you need to have a decent ratio of NPK with a high pressure system because your running so much lower ppm.


https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/295437-methodical-scientific-approach-nutrients-nutrient-15.html

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/268790-lucas-formula-recipe-scratch-really.html


----------



## AeroTrek (Mar 23, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> if your trying to run a hp system youll need to keep the ppm of the solution lower than your use to. you need to have a meter to really see what level your feeding. i wouldnt recommend the label ppm level for HP aero.
> 
> if you dont have or cant get a meter start out with maybe 15-20 percent of whats recommended for normal hydro and then work up slowly. if you have a meter then start at 100ppm or less for a rooted clone. this only applies if your running a high pressure mist with short mist cycles(under 2 secconds) any more than that and you can run somewhat higher numbers.
> 
> ...


Hi tree farmer,

I just read 6 pages of Fatmans' link you supplied and found it very informative. If I remember correctly the ratio he gave for a comfortable NPK ratio was around where I was when using DWC.

With all this info floating around in my head I had a thought regarding the "to drain method" and it was you that spawned it in one of your earlier posts (I could be wrong but bear with me it's getting late, tired and I have to get to work tomorrow morning).

Assuming you had the perfect nutrient ratio (...ok..close enough to..) for whatever stage of growth your in and you took a ppm reading of eg. 500ppm going in from the reservoir and 200ppm going to drain in a 24hr. period you find that the grow consumed 300ppm's.

Would it be safe to say that you could get away with a reservoir solution of 300ppm or maybe add 10% for 330ppm's and reduce your nute waste further? All of this after you have set your misting cycles to get the fluffy root area.

Just a thought.


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 24, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Mesh modding is a way of making a air chopping pump out of a standard pump. It is used instead of a needle valve pump. The reason is to chop larger bubbles into smaller bubbles. It is used usually in conjunction with a venturi valve that draws in air. The air is then chopped into many very, very small bubbles. The air not the pump drops the flow and pressure. It would only make sense though that the needle wheels and mesh mod pumps are less efficient at producing water volume and pressure than a standard pump impeller. These systems are more geared for NTF and DWC systems, or other ssytems where a high DO is desired in the reservoir or in running water from a resrvoir. High DI in a high pressure or medium prssure reservoir is not of any benefit. The water just needs enough DO to not support anaerobic bacteria (oxygen hating). The spraying action in a medium or high pressure aero mist assures a very high DO nutrient solution is delivered to the aero roots.
> 
> Again, not trying to be an *ss hole, but this is also a topic that would be more appropriattely covered in a new thread as mentioned above.




You weren't being an asshole, and you're right as always but I have to explain one thing before we drop this. 

The reason I am getting what really does seriously appear to be more flow and pressure both out of my modded pumps (when not using a venturi) is because their impellers weren't as large as they could have been given the space available in the volute.







I don't have a pic to show what I did and can't give you one, but I stacked these, sewed them on the impeller, then trimmed it as round and fitted as I could get it with hardly any rubbing. After a little use it wasn't rubbing at all any more, and they're still going. It's only been a few weeks though, and I can tell they run warmer to be fair.









Which as you can imagine would and did change things completely, so it's completely dependent on pump. It's got to be less efficient and drawing more watts, nothing is free, and still probably not going to work on a high pressure app as well as a properly engineered pump. It's probably a failure waiting to happen if you don't add a bypass to bleed some pressure off and keep enough water going to cool it in case it got backed up in a high pressure app.


It doesn't quite apply in this thread, but it sorta does because everyone could find a use for some water movement from a broken pump you didn't think you could use again, or for aeration somewhere, for an emergency at the worst time or something... Who knows, we aren't all just doing the same stuff and we like to tinker.


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 24, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Would it be safe to say that you could get away with a reservoir solution of 300ppm or maybe add 10% for 330ppm's and reduce your nute waste further? All of this after you have set your misting cycles to get the fluffy root area.
> 
> Just a thought.


Aero is pretty thrifty on nutes compared to most other methods 

If the plants remove say 200ppm of a single element (N,P or K) from the 500ppm solution, the 330ppm solution wouldn`t contain enough to begin with.


----------



## Dude Man (Mar 24, 2010)

to be honest the long term run costs of aero must be much lower than other styles,

tree man - any way i can get a N-P-K-Mg on veg and bloom from you?

Atom - if you could get the NPK close enough you could turn the strength down, one would think?


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 24, 2010)

Potassium drives the osmosis/transpiration cycle. You determine the EC you need to get the transpiration you need based upon your growing conditions (climatic parameters). The water needs are based upon your transpiration. The anmount you can transpiarte is based uppon potassium levels (potassium levels set your EC level). Your needs for nitrogen and phosphorus are based upon tissue samples (not practical for us) actual nutrients extracted by nutrient testing (also not practical for most of us) or by the tds in versus out and adjusting to a set point of say a 50% return of TDS. You adjust the ppm so that 50% comes back and observe plant growth to make sure no deficiencies show up. There is always the chance if using a formulation there can be a gross inbalance and for example 600 ppm provides just barely all the nitrogen you need and puts out to drainage 350 ppm. Then you lower to say 550 ppm going in and have a nitrogen shortage. Like atomizer said EC or TDS based upon EC does not really give a true TDS as different salts conduct electricity at different rates. Each set of conditions, evey EC and every plant strain effects the TDS required. In actuality your EC should always remain the same through out the growth but what makes up the EC differs. So basically you use a good proprotion fertilizer like 2:1:2 or 3:1:3 and find the EC based TDS needed for each stage of growth through experimentation and good record keeping for the strain your growing and the conditions you are providing. Once you find the nutrient needs you dilute to those levels and then just up your EC back with Potassium typically to return to the EC you need to maintain the proper transpiration for the climatic conditions you are maintaining.


HP and air atomized systems out side of tighting controlled selaed grow rooms are tyhe least understood sytem when it comes to GENERAL NEEDS. What is understood though is they are the nost efficient fastest growing systems that can best withstand the most jacked up maxed out climatic parametersare the least understood as 

A simple way to look at it is while to some degree you pick a plant strain based upon the climatic conditions you provide you still need to adjust your EC and nutrient levels to the individual strain you choose. There is no set standards for all plants mj plants. All are different and the same strain responds differently with different climatic conditions, different nutrient levels and different EC. It is quite hard for people to try to get in their minds the difference in using EC to judge nutrient levels and using EC to adjust osmosis or transpiration. A simple wat to look at it is if you use just a nutrient formula such as 6:3 and run an EC of 2 you will likely fry your plants with ecxcess nutrients. But if you dilute your 6:3:6 fertilizer down to a EC of 0.75 or 1 the plants will not be over fertilized but your transpiration will be low so your growth will be slow. But then if your raise your EC up from 0.75 or 1 to an EC of 1.5 with pottassium you will not fry your plants but will instead increase your tranpiration back up to the needs. Basically you have to find an ideal nutrient level and a ideal EC. They are really determined independently of each other. Your EC is dependent on observation of plant wilting and humidity so are related also to the amount of water you are providing. But even if providing a lot of water withut a high enough EC due to an adequate potassium level you still wil not take up adequate water but will instead just cahnge your root system to one with less hair roots.

There is a learning curve with every type of growing system however the nutrient manafacturers have made it easier g for most growers by fornulationg nutrients for veg and bloom which are developed by doing the same testing with several average type sytsems and common strains and have simply averaged the results out and suplly forn multaions that worjk well enough. They have not done that reserach for HP or air atomized sytems. Even resarch done for NASA has not been through enough for development of a set of averages for the grains and such they have been doing tets with for many years. There can be some many variations due to climatic differences that they have developed growing chambers which are sealed rooms that are fully controlled to finish their testing. So even once they finish their testing it will not really be that useful to anyone eccept those growers using sealed growing rooms.

I don't know if this helped anyone alot but it does show that there is a lot of practices in HP or atomized grows that must be learned that can be ignored with the long term more inefficient grows such as DWC, NTF and low pressure aero grow systems. HP Aero tinkeritis can upset everything also. You basically need to almost entirely build your system to the maxin mum you intend from the beginning as for climatic control as any change later just about means doing the testing for EC and nutrient levels all over if yoyu cahnge anything very much ie by addoing CO2 or dehumification or air conditioning. Changes cause impacts that are noticeable almost instantly with HP aeo and air atomized aero. With less efficient systems the changes cause plnats impcats more slowly and therefore are often not noticed or if they are they are not often attributed to the climatic changes.

ypically when doing testing you only want to change one variable in your testing. For example leave every parameter the same. IE watering cycles, lighting, temp, humidity, CO2 and EC *except* (in test series 1) vary nutrient concentration (consider additional potassium needed to adjust EC not as a nutrien=nt but just and osmosis/transpirtaion regulator). 

In test series 2, Leave every parameter the same but vary something like your magnesium concentrations.

Test series 3 incorporate your learnings from tests 1 and 2 and then maybe alter the CO2 levels or the temp or humidity (only one though).

All these tests are done with the same plant strain and phenotype, IE plants preferably clones from the same mother stock.

As you can sse anything can possibly make a noticeable difference, maybe for the better (you hope after all the time and work).

The sad thing is even if you get good results you need to be able to repeat the same tests and get the same results. If you can do this you have obtained research reserach data based on what is called the scientific method. For someone to be able to refute the data they must run the same test twice exactly as you and come up with different result from you in both of their tests.

The simpliset grows for HP aero and air atomized aeros are SOG. Large plants are more difficult as in general with a high hair root percentage as you tend to get very fast growing dwarfs due to very closely spaced internodes due to the efficiency of nutrient water up take.

Beginning Formula Diluted Down to an HP Aero usable strength.

Nitrogen 80
Phosphorus 25
Potassium 87
Magnesium 28
Calcium 79
Sulfur 37
Iron 3.30
Manganese 1.67
Boron 1.67
Zinc 1.67
Copper .33
Molybdenum .03

EC 0.83
TDS 581

Diluted Again beacuse your drain to waster showed over 60% of TDS was going down the drain

Nitrogen 60
Phosphorus 19
Potassium 65
Magnesium 21
Calcium 59
Sulfur 28
Iron 2.50
Manganese 1.25
Boron 1.25
Zinc 1.25
Copper .25
Molybdenum .03

EC 0.62 (note decrease in EC that came with lowering TDS) Ideally you want to raise the EC back up to the previous 0.83 but without adding nitrogen or salts that just antagonize each other. With mj this usually means increasing principally the potassium, followed by magnesium and then phophorus in the form of Phosphoric acid as it will be needed anyway to counter the rise in pH caused by the potassium hydroxide added. This restores your high tranpiration rate and lowers stress that would be caused by varying the EC. Some people also add a bit of sodium chloride (not calcium nitrate). However, most people simply let the plants get stessed a little by the EC change.


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 24, 2010)

Hi Dude Man
I guess it depends on how close you could get the NPK ratio vs effort vs the $$ you save. 
If i bought nutes from a growshop (+shipping) it would be worthwhile as a 40gal res would cost well over $9.40. Homebrewing a 40gal res of the same NPK nutes costs $1.15 so a small amount of waste is more tolerable.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 24, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Dude Man
> I guess it depends on how close you could get the NPK ratio vs effort vs the $$ you save.
> If i bought nutes from a growshop (+shipping) it would be worthwhile as a 40gal res would cost well over $9.40. Homebrewing a 40gal res of the same NPK nutes costs $1.15 so a small amount of waste is more tolerable.


 
Mixing your own fertilizer really is cheap. A typical 100x concentrate contains only one kiloof fertilizer salts (2.2 pounds). Ie that maens if you buy your major nutrients in 50 pound bags and the micro nutrients in small amounts say off of ebay you are only putting $5 into a gallon of fertilizer at 100X. With the dilute nutrients used by HP aero your diluting that about 300X. That means 300 gallons for $5. So about 1.6 cents per gallon. 

Even making the most "exotic" AN formula with amino acids and humus your only spending about $25 for a gallon of 100X you will dilute 300X for aero. So 8 cents per gallon.


----------



## AeroTrek (Mar 24, 2010)

Hi Fatman,

I found a small article that backs up your explanation to nutrient uptake. Although, you went into much finer detail.

http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/facts/uptake.htm

One thing that I found strange is this statement "The rates of water and nutrient uptake are very low at night, but the ratios at which nutrients and water are absorbed (i.e., K:water, N:water) are at their highest." I thought there would be no nutrient uptake as photosynthesis has ceased.

Any thoughts?


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 24, 2010)

While nutrients are always up taken the amount of water taken at might is lower as transpiration is replaced by respiration so muchless water is taken up but what is typically taken up is stored along with the nutrients that come with it. Plants at night do many conersion and storage operations as a result of the prevoi ious photpsytheis and in preparation for the next days photosynthesis. Some would say most things needed for growth are taken in and partially formed during the day and that the plants then grow at night. Over simplification but close enough.

Some research papers keep stating also that green house testing has shown that during the afternoon photosysnthesis processses slow down and that providing more CO2 actually quickly leads to the closing of the stomatas. What they do not address though is that the green houses are closed entirely or very nearalyso meaning the humidity is extremely high around the plants so given the same conditions without the CO2 the stomta would still close. The CO2 just speeds the process. What they also do not sat y is if the hunidity is dropped the stomata reopen and with the additional CO2 present transpiration and photosyntheis continues. Just another case where in door climate controlled grow rooms are much different from green houses. Even searching high and low it is extremely doubtful you will find any commercial green houses with dehumifiers or air conditioners that will lower the humidity. They use fans and opening panels/windows. There are crops are not valuable enough to use dehumifiers or air conditioners.


----------



## clydefrog (Mar 24, 2010)

Do you fellas do anything to ease your cuttings into the colder water temps when you move them from veg to bud or does it not really matter?


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 25, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> Do you fellas do anything to ease your cuttings into the colder water temps when you move them from veg to bud or does it not really matter?


 i never do anything just move them. and sometimes my cuts from the cloner go into warmer water than they were in the cloner.(purposely holding cuts back for one reason or another keeping the water and air temps real cool)

ive expermented around some in the pods changing the temp of the input solution which changes the temp inside the pod but havent found any direct comparisions between the pod temps and growth. i never let the pods go over 70 ambient temps inside the chamber. to maintain 69 i have to run the solution temp at around 67 degrees.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 25, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> to be honest the long term run costs of aero must be much lower than other styles,
> 
> tree man - any way i can get a N-P-K-Mg on veg and bloom from you?
> 
> Atom - if you could get the NPK close enough you could turn the strength down, one would think?


i use one of fatmans listed ratios 2-1-2,3-1-3, 3-1-2, 3-1-4. any one of these and then adjust from what you see from the runoff numbers and plant health. i try and keep a higher level of nitrogen going into bloom for around 3 weeks then reduce it and see how they react. these sat dom girls seem to love thier nitrogen more than the indicas from last time. mag one third of nitrogen or some where close to that i try and keep it overmisting will give you al kinds of nutrient def looking symptoms especially when they are little.
so what looks like a nutrient defiecincy ends up to really be overmisting.

these nutes are so cheap running hp aero that to me i dont even consider them. when you run in the 100-650ppm range from clone to full flower you dont use much nutes. the Ro water costs more for me than nutes do.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 25, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Hi tree farmer,
> 
> I just read 6 pages of Fatmans' link you supplied and found it very informative. If I remember correctly the ratio he gave for a comfortable NPK ratio was around where I was when using DWC.
> 
> ...


 i guess atomizer gave you the short answer and fatman the long one. youll notice he does that.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 25, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> Do you fellas do anything to ease your cuttings into the colder water temps when you move them from veg to bud or does it not really matter?


I maintain temps of 85 F to 90 F for all plants and clones. But, I also use CO2 for budding and vegging plants and low boosting of clone CO2. I also keep b my humidity at 30 to 35 % maximum. There is no reason to have low water temps with aero as long as you do not have a thick layer of roots laying in low DO water as in small tubes. Any water that is sprayed will not be low DO as long as it is drained quickly before lying roots remove the DO and rtherevby cretae a site for oxygen free bactria to multiply (cholrine kill the bactteria). 

I heat if needed to keep the room temps at 80 F at night. As I keep the humidity low the lower temps used by many at night just provide no advantage yet the warmer temps do. I do not chill my nutes but occasionally need to warm them to a minimum of 80 K at night and 85 during the day. I aerate my nutes with a small power head but I do not try to keep the DO at any specific level as long as it is over about 2 ppm. I have neer seen it that low. I do use chlorine at all times so that keeps bacterial levels at negligible levels in all my systems.

I get better nutrient uptake when the nutrient water is just below or at the same temp as the plants.


----------



## YouGrowBoy (Mar 25, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> i use one of fatmans listed ratios 2-1-2,3-1-3, 3-1-2, 3-1-4. any one of these and then adjust from what you see from the runoff numbers and plant health.


I've been watching this thread very closely. It's a great and constructive thread.

Tree Farmer - Do you mix your own nutes from Fatman's recipe or do you use off the shelf nutes? Or, what?

Thanks, YGB


----------



## Paglia (Mar 25, 2010)

Hi all,

This is my first post and i want make my TAG but have a problem with pressure...

When shout down the remaining pressure in the pipes continue run out for 6-7 seconds.
The nozzles have anti-drip valve set on 25 psi, this can cause the issue?
Anyone have this problem? what to repair this?

Sorry for my english


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 25, 2010)

Paglia said:


> Hi all,
> 
> This is my first post and i want make my TAG but have a problem with pressure...
> 
> ...


are you using an accumulator tank?


----------



## Dude Man (Mar 25, 2010)

Fartman - I was reading on pod racers thread that a* "Ca:Mg 3:1
NO3:NH4 9:1" *needed to be considered when making a formula for HP aero?
How close do i need to be?

I see now i am better off mixing my own and now i found your info i will when i run out of PBP,
all though i wondering if adding some PB original would effect taste when combined with the raw mix?
or if it really matters, I know when i used all canna it gave the bud a sweeter taste, than say the same strain in dirt with miracle grow? 

but i am stuck with pbp, and need to read up more on your mixing info...

as always, thanks in advance.


----------



## Paglia (Mar 26, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> are you using an accumulator tank?


Hi tree farmer, for now i can't buy an accumulator tank but i use a vibration pump, she can run 15 bar immediately (i know this is not TAG but is what I can afford now).

When cut off the remaining pressure continuely run over the nozzles, i think need a relief valve or solenoid normaly open.

When start pump solenoid is closed and when cut off solenoid open and discharge pressure.

What do you think?


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 26, 2010)

Paglia said:


> Hi tree farmer, for now i can't buy an accumulator tank but i use a vibration pump, she can run 15 bar immediately (i know this is not TAG but is what I can afford now).
> 
> When cut off the remaining pressure continuely run over the nozzles, i think need a relief valve or solenoid normaly open.
> 
> ...


without the accumulator the only thing you could do is add another selonoid to dump the line pressure back to the res as soon as you turn the pump off. this will keep the nozzles from dumping the pressure thru the misters when you turn off the pump but it will not help for the ramping up of the pressure when you start the pump. install the selonoid in the line going to the misters with a tee and a line that runs back to the res. use a relay that closes the selonoid when you apply power to the pump and then when you cut the power to the pump the relay will open the selonoid. so you need a normally open seonoid and a relay.


----------



## tree farmer (Mar 26, 2010)

anyone else having problems accessing thier control panel and pm's. the thing wont let me see my messages. been like this all day. keeps showing database error has been encountered.


----------



## Paglia (Mar 26, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> without the accumulator the only thing you could do is add another selonoid to dump the line pressure back to the res as soon as you turn the pump off. this will keep the nozzles from dumping the pressure thru the misters when you turn off the pump but it will not help for the ramping up of the pressure when you start the pump. install the selonoid in the line going to the misters with a tee and a line that runs back to the res. use a relay that closes the selonoid when you apply power to the pump and then when you cut the power to the pump the relay will open the selonoid. so you need a normally open seonoid and a relay.


This is what i have in mind, i think to close the solenoid with the same relay of the pump to go in synchrony, i go to search supplies, thank you!


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 26, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> Fartman - I was reading on pod racers thread that a* "Ca:Mg 3:1*
> *NO3:NH4 9:1" *needed to be considered when making a formula for HP aero?
> How close do i need to be?
> 
> ...


Who is Fartman?? I don't know of a Flatulentman in this forum. 3 to 1 is about the acceptable standard for a calcium to magnesium ratio. Even if you raise your calcium and magnesium for budding it is usually at about those same ratios. It is OK though during budding to increase the magnesium and not the calcium. This is done by some to increase the EC and therefore transpiration when they already have a high concentration of Potassium. I usually keep my Aero SOG grow Calcium, Potassium and Total nitrogen pretty much at equal ratios. When calcium is used to raise the EC it usually decreases transpiration and therefore decreases nutrient uptake. Though this will lower humidity during budding and lessen mildew problems, I would rather have the higher transpiration and higher nutrient uptake and just control the humidity instead. Ift is very possible lowering the calcium might actually be more advantageous during budding in aero. This would mean lower the calcium by about 80 ppm and increasing the potassium by 80 to 100 ppm. 

The higher calcium, magnesium and iron levels added through using Cal-Mag Plus are needed during budding because with a recirculating reservoir system more are locked out or tied up during budding by carbonate and precipitation so less are available. IE There is not a higher plant demand for these nutrients. This does not happen with a drain to waste system. This decrease of calcium and increase of potassium should increase nutrient uptake and transpiration during budding with drain to waste systems. This lowered calcium would likely lower the nutrient pH in recurculation reservoirs. As HP aero is typically drain to waste the pH change of the waste water is more just a growers way of indicating what nitrogen source is being up taken and otherwise is of no real concern. With drain to waste the drain water pH does not matter in that there is no recirculation reservoir for it to effect. You do need to consider the differences between growing longer veg cycle plants (large plants) or SOG plants. Cutting the SOG plant calcium is not as not likely to be as advantageous as with the long term larger plants. SOG drain to waste aero plant calcium uptake seems to stay pretty consistent through out the grow until dropping in the last 7 to 10 days, where as the calcium uptake after the stretch stage in the larger plants drops quite a lot..

As far as the nitrate to ammonium ratios. I keep it down to less than 7% of the total nitrogen being ammonium. That means about a 1:14 ratio max. More commonly though I formulate aero nutrients at about 5% which is just below a 1 to 19 ratio, IE 1:20. A 1:9 ratio is way to much ammonium nitrogen for an indoor grow especially aero) unless you are growing with low temperatures (50's or low 60's F) and low intensity lighting (fluorescent or CFC).


----------



## AeroTrek (Mar 26, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> i guess atomizer gave you the short answer and fatman the long one. youll notice he does that.


Yes...you got that right, but believe it or not I prefer the long answer as it leaves little to assume and you know what they say when you "ASS U ME".

I've been without a grow for over ten years and starting up again with a new method (aero) changes the game some. I prefer to get as much detail as I can before throwing the first seed into the ring (occupational hazard...engineering). If anything it's the challenge of producing the best that I can that gets me going.

When I last grew I used store bought GH, Canna and a few other premixed nutrients but added the micros depending on what stage of growth they where at. I like fatmans approach as it seems to have infinite control of nutrient uptake, as long as the environment is kept stable. This new game (aero) requires control.

I hope you guys don't mind me picking at your brains...


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 28, 2010)

Paglia said:


> Hi tree farmer, for now i can't buy an accumulator tank but i use a vibration pump, she can run 15 bar immediately (i know this is not TAG but is what I can afford now).
> 
> When cut off the remaining pressure continuely run over the nozzles


Hi Paglia,
Could you tell us about your layout/hardware. Things like; what type of pipe you are using, how long it is, the number of nozzles, nozzle flow rate in LPH etc.
It wont be easy to fix the issue completely but there may be things you can do to improve the situation.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 28, 2010)

Wow, I wonder how mayy people over at IC there are trying to mix up medium pressure and high pressure methodology by using a single splenoid as a divertor valve so as to not have to buy an accumulator tank and its valves/gauges etc. I assume it is the Super TAG guy PetFlora convincing everyone to do so. 

The single divertor valve system is a system that was developed for use is used with a Mag Drive pump (the Iwaki MD-30RZT) that only puts out 20 to 25 psi. When used with the misters made for 35-80 psi it works well with a large divertor valve and only a small drippage happens at the misters when the water is diverted as very little water under pressure reaches the misters. It was never suggested in this forum that a single divertor valve system be used with a higher pressure pump with the exception of the larger Iwaki MD-70RZT and then those people were told mister leakage would be a problem as the pump deliver about 45 psi. This methodology was also developed for recurculation sytems not drain to waste, so the caost of waster nutrients and drippage adding to waste was not a consideration as the darinage was toa recurculation reservoir not to a waste drain.

With the higher pressure from a high pressure pump (or a drain to waster system) either a second solenoid will be needed or a real divertor valve, which is basically a three way valve but typically allows lower pressures that a HP aero runs (fine for an Iwaki pump), or an inline pressure relief valve will kinda help. Plastomatic is sold on eBay, but even there the all plastic relief valves are far from cheap.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Plast-O-Matic-Plastomatic-Relief-Valve-RVT-075-V-PV_W0QQitemZ260238213218QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3c97680062

This is not a small valve. It is about 12" tall and 5" in diameter. There are cheaper brands available.

The Griffco Brand in line pressure relief valve is smaller and more economical.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=pressure+relief+valves&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&_odkw=stainless+steel+relief+valves&_osacat=0&bkBtn=#item5886d66cdd

You do not want a (pop off type) pressure relief valve as is typically used with a water heater that has a lever arm.

Given a choice I would use two solenoids rather than a relief valve and a single solenoid. An inline relief valve only opens in an amount proprotional to the prssure. Meaning if adjusted at 25 psi (as an example) it will only open a very small ways if the pressure is say 28 psi. It will open further at 35 psi when set at 25 psi. That means with a pump such as the Iwaki MD-30RZT that delivers 24 psi, you would set the pressure down around 10 psi to stop water that did not go through the divertor valve. If you set it at say 20 psi, the valve would pressure relief valve would barely open at 20 psi and at a spray time of only a second or so the pump would not build up enough additional pressure to open the valve much further.


----------



## Paglia (Mar 28, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Paglia,
> Could you tell us about your layout/hardware. Things like; what type of pipe you are using, how long it is, the number of nozzles, nozzle flow rate in LPH etc.
> It wont be easy to fix the issue completely but there may be things you can do to improve the situation.


Hi Atomizer,

I using a flexible pipe for gas, can take 20 bar of gas pressure, the line is 3 meter long whit 4 nozzles.






The flow rate is 0,06 LPM for nozzles






The pump is a low flow vibration pump, she produce 15 bar (217,5 psi) is designed for expresso machine coffee






My friend give me tomorrow a 3 way solenoid to put after the pump, when the pump stop the solenoid discharge in the res.

I think this is the rigth way for my possibility now, but i have in mind to mount an accumulator tank one day...


----------



## Atomizer (Mar 28, 2010)

Hi Paglia,
You may struggle to find an accumulator for 15bar working pressure and it won`t be cheap  The pipe looks quite soft as you can use hose clamps on it. I`ve a feeling it may be expanding under the pressure (like a balloon) and causing the run-on as it deflates when the pump stops. If you have access to a micrometer you could check the pipe diameter with and without the pump running.
If the pipe expands from 10mm bore to 10.5mm bore while the pump is running, the pipe will store an extra 24ml of water under pressure. The 24ml is enough to run your 4 nozzles for 6 seconds. If the pipe is 12mm bore, it`ll be worse.. 30ml.
Never rely on the manufacturers flowrate specs for nozzles.. they usually lie 
Check to be sure the solenoid can handle at least 15 bar pressure before you turn on the pump, the standard rating for solenoids over here is normally 10 bar (147psi)

Another thing that springs to mind is your nozzle layout. You appear to have everything aimed at the centre of the chamber, i guess the nozzles may have a very broad pattern to cover everything? 
If not, it may be worth rearranging them so each nozzle is 1/4 to 1/3rd the side length distance, depending on the mist pattern they generate. That way the nozzles will reinforce each other, no nozzles are directly opposite and you should get more even coverage.


----------



## Paglia (Mar 28, 2010)

Yes the pipe are soft and expand when is under pressure, i misure this for you later 

The solenoid is ok because he work togheter the pump in the similar coffee machine.

The position of nozzles as come from the pot layout i have in mind like this:





I can point some nozzles in the bottom and others in the upper?
What you think about?

Later when mount the solenoid i try to test the real flow rate of nozzles


----------



## zero1776 (Mar 29, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The introduction of ambient air CO2 will not cause Carbonic acid (dissolved CO2) accumulation. One reasons is there is an air water interface that maintains an equilibrium to prevent low DO or high dissolved CO2. Secondly carbonic acid is very short lived so it does not accumulate. Unless the levels of CO2 in the pumped in air or in the room are elevated then the reservoir water, if well aerated, will not have any carbonic acid formation. If youu add an increased PPM of CO2 to the room air where the reservoir is located, then carbonic acid will form and turn to a carbonate and then to a bicarbonate, and yada, yada, yada.
> 
> True it is not wise to have a nutrient reservoir in a room where artifically high levels of CO2 are maintained, especially as CO2 is a heavy gas and sinks to the floor where the dissolved level of CO2 in the form of carbonic acid will be a short term issue. It will only be a short term issue because the carbonic acid will quickly become a bicarbonate with a negative charge, which will be short term as calcium or magnesium will combined with the carbonate forming calcium bicarbonate or magnesium or even potassium bicarbonate. So in the end run the pH will not be lowered but raised and important ions will become locked up. IE anyone who uses CO2 should* not* have reservoirs in the room where they are boosting the CO2.
> 
> ...


Fatman
So it seems I have been miss informed on this subject matter I have a aero flo 60 in a room with the CO2 ppm at 1500 I have a air stone with a large air pump bringing in air from outside the room into the Res.I was told this was ok 1Would this be ok in this configuration?, or should this be revised?2 What could I do for a short term fix?Would a problem caused by this look like typical nutrient lock out?I have not had any lockout issues. I have had root problems in the past all is well right now I trust your response more than the prior information I received. All your past advice has been a tremendous help thanx


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 29, 2010)

Oh encyclopedia of infinite wisdom, how would one get away with a reservoir inside the co2 boosted room if he just had to do it? Some active intake and exhaust routed outside just for it and seal it off? Or route a long one to a room in the house? The outside temp would be an issue, loosing indoor heat would be expensive, ducting long distance takes power. I would have a chiller anyway but I'd have to add heat also I guess.

Actually I'm trying to figure out how to have two 55g barrels stacked/welded as a reservoir of 100g, so that might make it easier to vent or something, but gives me limited surface area I know. Whatever ideas on that you have, let me know.


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 29, 2010)

The dissolved CO2 in the reservoir along with the dissolved O2 in the reservoir will be proportional to the CO2 and O2 in the room air (at the interface between the air and the waters surface). Elevation also factors in but not in your case as the elevation is the same. Pumping air in from ourside the room will not lower the CO2 as the dissolved CO2 is proporational to the CO2 concentration at the interface not the amount of gaseous CO2 flowing through the water. Nearly all dissolved CO2 and Dissolved O2 comes from the interface not the bubbles. If you use supplemental CO2 and your reservoir is in the same room the amount of dissolved CO2 will increase therefore the amount of carbonic acid, which turns to bicarbonate, which then becomes a calcium or magnesium bicarbonate. As long as you continue to adjust your pH the water will continue to try to maintain a CO2 level proportional with the air, but as long as there are compoungs with a postive charge to form bicarbonates they will do so and therefore nuetralize the carbonic acid (dissolved CO2). Adjusting the pH and adding more magnesium and calcium just causes the process to continue. 

However you must keep the pH in an acceptable range, and you must supply adequate magnesium and calcium. The obvious fix is to move the reservoir out side the grow room. If that is not possible attach another resrvoir to a reservoir outside the grow room with as large a surfacearea as possible. For example using hypothetical numbers. If the inside reservoir has a volume of water of 30 gallons with a disssolved CO2 of 1500 ppm and an out side the room reservoir has a volume of 60 gallons and a dissolved CO2 level of 350 ppm if those resrvoirs are mixed you will have a (1500*30+350*60)/(30+60) = 733.333 ppm. This is assuming the arbitrary CO2 units in ambient air is 350 ppm. Using 30 gallons for your second reservoir the CO2 would be 925 ppm. The larger air surface for the second resrvoir is to assure that it can lower the ppm concentration of CO2 as quickly as the smaller reservoir increases.

If no CO2 is used in the room with the reservoir simply pumping air through the water will not increase the amount of dissolved CO2 in the water as the nutrient water will laways try to maintain a dissolved CO2 level proportional to the room airs CO2 concentration. It can become a problem with DWC grows where the peracentage of the area at the waters surface is small due to all the roots as the air interface is smaller so the eficiecy or gas exchange is lesser. The solution in that case would be the same. Add another reservoir to incraese the air water interface and the volume. 

The resrvoirs would obviously need to be tied together with several pipes and a cicrculating pump.

The other option is make and install a degassing column otside the plant room.

Here is an aquaculture site write up on making a stripper column.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGk0iT57BLVOgAn_FXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEzYmxnZWJlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDOARjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0Y4MjJfMTA0/SIG=12bur4brl/EXP=1269971219/**http%3a//aquanic.org/publicat/usda_rac/efs/srac/191fs.pdf

Or here is a premade retailed unit.

http://www.aquaticeco.com/subcategories/3681/Degassing-Columns

They also make a cartridge air filter to remove carbon dioxide from air being pumped. It is simply a cartridge containing granular calcium hydroxide and granular sodium hydroxide. The sodium hydroxide takes up excess moistire while CO2 and Calcium Hydroxide produce calcium carbonate.


----------



## OregonMeds (Mar 29, 2010)

*"It is as simple as that. Ba da, ba da, Boom!"

I Should have just asked you earlier, then it would have been just that simple. 

Degassing column here we come.

*


----------



## fatman7574 (Mar 29, 2010)

Large tube filled with Bio balls, with a plate perforated with holes top and bottom to spresad the water flow out. Set the top plate a few inches below the top of the pipe. Air risng through pipe will strip excess gases (including oxygen if the water is over saturated with DO <DOUBTFULL>). To make the column work best use a blower/air pump of any sort to increase the airflow through the tube. Clean the pipe and bio balls occasionally with chlorine or H2O2 or othr erwise it will become a bacteriological filter also. That really will not matter with inorganic fertilizers except that it will convert the small amounts of ammonium nitrogen to nitrate. It will still strip CO2 even when functioning as a trickle filter. It will only reduce CO2 to the room level CO2 where the column is located.


----------



## zero1776 (Mar 30, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Large tube filled with Bio balls, with a plate perforated with holes top and bottom to spresad the water flow out. Set the top plate a few inches below the top of the pipe. Air risng through pipe will strip excess gases (including oxygen if the water is over saturated with DO <DOUBTFULL>). To make the column work best use a blower/air pump of any sort to increase the airflow through the tube. Clean the pipe and bio balls occasionally with chlorine or H2O2 or othr erwise it will become a bacteriological filter also. That really will not matter with inorganic fertilizers except that it will convert the small amounts of ammonium nitrogen to nitrate. It will still strip CO2 even when functioning as a trickle filter. It will only reduce CO2 to the room level CO2 where the column is located.


Thanx for the input I will be looking at the space I have to see which method I will use next unit will have a remote res.


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 1, 2010)

okay looks through the first 15 pages and as i have kids and a wife i had better just ask, what did you end up doing for a pressure relief valve?


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 1, 2010)

you guys are geniuses... not kidding

I have never heard of a degasser?

So if i have a large dwc setup, in a room and the co2 levels are high in the room, but i have air stones in every bucket, and that air comes from outside the room, so it is normal c02 and normal 02 levels... would i still need one of these?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 2, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> you guys are geniuses... not kidding
> 
> I have never heard of a degasser?
> 
> So if i have a large dwc setup, in a room and the co2 levels are high in the room, but i have air stones in every bucket, and that air comes from outside the room, so it is normal c02 and normal 02 levels... would i still need one of these?


Even with the lower CO2 air being pumped in you are still going to have a water air interface where the air has a high CO2 so your dissolved CO2 (carbonic acid) will be proportional to the room air in the room containing the reservoir. Even with a dergasser outside the room the reservoir is going to want to take in additioanl CO2 due to the grow room air high CO2 levels. The degasser will never quite get the resrvoir level to drop as low as the room air CO2 concntration where the Degasser is located, but with adequate flow and enough air moving through the degasser it can come close. Stop the degassers water flow and the reservoirs dissolved CO2 level will immediately start climbing up again. 

In a recirculating reservoir system where pH declines are a problem even without CO2 supplementation the pH declines could be minimalized a lot by having the waste water run through a degasser before it returns to the reservoir. Of course it would only apply for systems like, tube aero, NTF, ebb and flow etc where the water flows through a drain to the reservoir after its use. The pH decline is due to carbonate being released by the roots due to nitrate uptake. In a degasser a carbonate ion breaks down into oxygen and CO2.

One problem with having a higher education and being old and having too many life experiences is you forget what others commonly know or don't know so you do not know what knowledge can be usefull to others until a topic comes up that no one replies to.


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 2, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> okay looks through the first 15 pages and as i have kids and a wife i had better just ask, what did you end up doing for a pressure relief valve?


just pick one up from most any hardware store or from grainger. get one rated to open at a little below the maxium pressure your tank can handle. or you can get an adjustable one like this
http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/items/1X624?Pid=search

and then just set it to the correct pressure. i put mine at the low point on the system with a check valve so that the solution that does come in contact with the brass can not go back into the main solution flow. you can see a pic of it in installed in this thread maybe 20 pages back where i posted a pic of my repeat cycle timers.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 2, 2010)

sounds like you know a bit of stuff fatman...

i am a bit lost on the degasser concept, im not the greatest with building things or understanding blueprints. I understand there is a tube, and you fill it with bio balls or something, and the water pours DOWN? the tube, and the tube can be located above a resevoir.

So lets say that the resevoir is in the room, but the resevoir is sealed? Does that change anything? Can i just pump fresh air into the air tight res, and keep it under pressure, and poke a hole in the lid?

OR

If i put this degasser on top of my res, is there air that needs to be hooked up to the degasser? I saw someone mention hooking it up to the bottom of it? So my idea is a degasser is just a tube, with bio balls in it, and water pours down through, and then some non co2 rich air is hooked up to the bottom of the tube and bubbles its way up the tube. Is that correct?

So if i had one in my grow room, i would need to use non co2 air from out of the room to bubble up through the water, right?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 2, 2010)

The point is that if you have water with CO2 in it proportional to the air in the room you can move that water to a rroom with a lower concentraion of CO2 and air flowing by and throught it will remove the excess CO2. The tubes is filled with something like bio balls as that spreads the water over a large surface area almost as if it was sprayed into the air. But as the water is contained in the tudbe no water is loss. This does cause the excess gas to be removed from the water. The tube (pipe) is closed at the ends with a plate or cap that is drilled full of holes. This spredas the water out as it enters and leaves the tube, and it allows space for the excess CO2 gas to escape. if the bottom is above a resrvoir or catching container then a current of air will natuarlly pass up the tube. To incraese the air going y up the tube and to allow the bottom of the tube to be attached straight to the drain return pie going back to a grow roon resrvir a small fan can be attached to the tube so as toblow air up the tube and out the top plate holes. The top pipe should be something like a pipe coupling with a piece of acrylic plastic driiled full of holes cut to rest inside of it a few inches from the top. The pie can be filled with other inert objects rtaeher than Bio balls, but bio balls have very large surface areas for their volume size so are about perfect for this type of application. I have seen things like rubber mulch used and different things like plastic scrubbng pads, even the plastic 6 packs holders for cans of soda pop crammed loosely into a tube. For a tub for a large reservor I would use a 3" PVC tube with a small muffin fan or sn mall squirrel cage fan. Install the fan on a 45 or 90 degree fitting attached to a Tee fitting so that water will not flow out of the tube into the fan area.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 2, 2010)

changing gears a bit...

lets say a person was doing dwc as i am... and the had bubble stones in the containers as i do, and the air coming through them was from outside the room.

I understand what you are saying about the waters surface is where it attracts c02 from teh c02 rich room, but what im trying to visualize is, inside the container since its not air tight but pretty close, and since fresh air is being added to the container, wouldnt that fresh air overpower the c02 air from the roots, pushing it out constantly due to the pressure from the new bubbles entering the container?

I guess the question at hand is do the roots make more c02 per second than air being pumped in by my air pump. If they dont, then i would venture to say that the air within the container would be pretty close to outside room c02 levels as that air is constantly flooding the container, pushing everything else out.

I would think this same principle would apply to a res so long as the res has a near air tight lid on it and a bubble stone releasing a good amount of outside air into the res, keeping the air within the res, that is above the water, low in c02.

?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 2, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> changing gears a bit...
> 
> lets say a person was doing dwc as i am... and the had bubble stones in the containers as i do, and the air coming through them was from outside the room.
> 
> ...


Out gassing columns/tubes make the most sense for people who supplement CO2 and have their resevoirs in the grow room. They also work well betwwen a RO filet and a DI filter. They also work well for thi ose y who pump water up from their resrvoir to their plants as this allows a degasser to degaess the returm ing water, but still the degasser should be ouside the room if the room is CO2 supplemented. People with systems where the resrvoir is outside the room and the room is CO2 supplemented also benefit by out gassing columns as the water piclked up grow room CO2 in aeros and NTF and ebb and flow systems as the room arir it is exposed to is high in CO2 so it is like the water on surfaces is just like an air water interface so the water takes up CO2 proportional to the grow room CO2 level.

Kinda gives you an idea of why there are so many calcium and magnesium deficiency problems during budding. Huh. The plants are not using more calcium and magnesium during budding. There is just a lot more being tied up so less is available. So the nutrient manfacturers are not selling out gassing equipment or even explaining what is going on, they are just selling cal-mag and saying they plants have a higher demand during budding. However, they very often tell lies and decieve mj growers.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 3, 2010)

makes sense, thanks fatman


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 3, 2010)

Sir *FatMan*, I know this is a newbie question but when you are cloning using LP-Aero, you would use a liquid clone solution with macro-micro nutts or do you only use liquid cloning solution until they are rooted?


Treeman - your pressure gauge is huge where did you get it?


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 3, 2010)

fatman, at constant trickle, how much co2 would you guess 50 plants can consume?

Reason i ask, i have a hot water heater in my basement, and my grow room is air tight and up in the attic with AC.

I was going to run a tube or a hose up there from the exhaust pipe of my hot water heater.

First thing i was wondering is how much of a hose would i need, i was thinking of using a 1/2 inch plastic black aeration line. And then the second question is what would be the best pump for pumping it up there, quiet would be better obviously.


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 3, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> Sir *FatMan*, I know this is a newbie question but when you are cloning using LP-Aero, you would use a liquid clone solution with macro-micro nutts or do you only use liquid cloning solution until they are rooted?
> 
> 
> Treeman - your pressure gauge is huge where did you get it?


 from grainger. its for the visualy challenged


----------



## AeroTrek (Apr 3, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> from grainger. its for the visualy challenged


 
LOL...


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 3, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Wow, I wonder how mayy people over at IC there are trying to mix up medium pressure and high pressure methodology by using a single splenoid as a divertor valve so as to not have to buy an accumulator tank and its valves/gauges etc. I assume it is the Super TAG guy PetFlora convincing everyone to do so.
> 
> .


reading back through some old stuff, im not sure if this would work or not, but if a person used 2 solenoids, but the difference is one of these solenoids is at the end of your main sprayer hose tubing, far away from the pump or the res, or you could have the line loop back around so that it is closer to the res, etc.

But what im getting at is, when the main solenoid up the the pump closes, and forces the water to go to the sprayers, the solenoid on the sprayer lines closes simultaneously, and the system builds pressure, and as soon as the solenoid up the the pump re opens again, so does the solenoid at the end of your sprayer line, so what I would think should happen is the pressure in the sprayer line is relieved from both ends, and thus the drip or contunued spray from the pressurized sprayer lines should vanish. 

This of couse would only be practical in a system where the nutes are recycled, for if you were doing drain to waste, having all that runoff from the pressurized line get trashed every time would be a huge waste, or i guess you could just loop it back around to the main res, so maybe not waste it after all?

Im confused what aplication you guys are using pressure releif valves for, especially down in the 20psi ranges?


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 3, 2010)

The pressure relief valve only operates in the event of a pressure switch failure, it protects the accumulator from dangerously high pressures.


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 3, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> The pressure relief valve only operates in the event of a pressure switch failure, it protects the accumulator from dangerously high pressures.



That's why i wanted one for safety, that's it!



from reading the threads it sounds like growth chamber temp can be a problem with HP-Aero.

I was thinking that you could make a radiator of sorts by making loops of aquapex and hooking it up at a rez with chiller water running through it.

only down side is that it would cause the mist to beed up on the pex and drip?

any thoughts??


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 3, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> That's why i wanted one for safety, that's it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i dont have any chamber temp problems. my pods temps stay at 69 degrees no matter what temp the ambient room is run at. i just adjust my input solution temp to always keep my pod temps at 69. this usually means keeping the solution temp at 67. this is accomplished without a chiller. as a matter of fact i have a heater in the res to keep it this temp otherwise it would fall to low. the res is out of the room.
i will experment with higher pod temps in my new chambers but for now im not really setup for that so i just keep them at 69 degrees. all this entails is insulating the pods with some regular insulation that goes into a 2x4 wall and covering with white panda film. two layers of insulation and the plastic wrapped around the pods seems to work fine to accomplish this. the plant soon shades the pod and this also helps.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 3, 2010)

What ambient temp are you able to fend off with that insulation treefarmer? I'm trying to keep the a/c bill down and running 4kw vert per plant.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 3, 2010)

As long as your root chamber and nutrient temp is below the plant canopy tempearture it is fine with the exception that pathogens/bacteria multiply at a he igher rtae at higher temps. This should normally never be a proble, as the nutrient water delivers highly oxygenated water regularly so there is little chance of oxygen hating bacteria to develope. Plus you have the oxidation power of oxygen surrounding the roots and contacting all surfaces. Even then adding a small dose of chlorox to your nutrient solution handles any extreme possibilities. It only requires enough chlorox to maintain a small residual dosage. With drain to waste the water in the accumulator held water will not lose its chlorine over time. Any chlorine dosed to a reservoir will lose its chlorine over time if it remains in the resrvi oir over a long period of time before being pumped into the accumulator. Not aerating the reservoir will increase the time the water retains its residual chlorine. There is no adavantage or need to havinfg high DO reservoir or accumulator water as the sprayo ing of the water fully saturates the water with DO. 

Usually the extreme case in a chamber HP grow would be mildew, most often found at *lower* chamber temperatures where there are air drafts auses by leakage of cooler room air ??? into the chambers, not high temps. For bacteria multipication you need food such as rotting roots. Seldom an issue. I have not heard an HP aero grower ever complain of rotting root except the TAG dudes who have many assorted problems equal to those of small tube low pressure aero growers many problems. 

As long as you have adequate CO2 for high temp growth there is no reason to have chamber or nutrient temps below the ambient room air temp. Lower temps will actually decrease nutrient take up ability. Remember DO is not an issue as you will have a DO at least 4 to 6 times higher than needed with HP aero. The canopy temp will always be higher than the chamber temp or the ambient room air temp. 

You do need to look at humidity. Humidity is a larger driving force than a temperature difference between the nutrient temp and plant temp. If the humidity is to high around the plant then transpiration is reduced as there is less evaporation of water at the stomata. The water leaving the stomata must be evaporated (become humidity/moist air) before more water exits the stomata. This is in nature handled by movement of dry air over the plants leaf surfaces. In indoor growing it is handled either with fans (no CO2 supplementation), often with too much fan air causing stomata closing as too much stomata released water is evaporated too quickly. Or it is handled with airconditioning or dehumification or both. I use both as I want higher temps and higher transpiration than can be maintained when using just air conditioning to handle all dehumidification. Using just an airconditioner removes too much heat in relation to the dehumidification. If temps are lowered too much CO2 uptake and photosythesis slows down as well.

*Simplification:*
Nutrient uptake from solution is driven by the use of nutrients within the plant, by the fixation of nutrients in new growth of leaves, shoots, stems, seeds and roots. Growth is thus the primary driving force for nutrient uptake, but growth itself is driven by environmental conditions and in particular photosynthesis and solar radiation, temperature and humidity.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 3, 2010)

does it hurt plants to be warmer during dark than light?

to keep temps down durning the summer, i run lights on at night, and lights off at day, but the attic gets its hottest during the day when lights are out, my room get up to 88 at highest and then when lights are on its around 72.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 3, 2010)

It does not really adversely effect the plants to have higher night temps. Respration is bit more difficult at higher temps but it does not require near as much respiration efficiency as the usual slightly lower night temps provide. There is more of a problem with too much night time decline in temp.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 4, 2010)

i had a guy trying to tell me that if plants dont have a 15 deg decline at night, they dont produce as much bud... not true?


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 4, 2010)

so the accumulator tank i want has 1" inlet/outlet fittings. i assume that it doesn't matter that my pump only has a 3/8 output since the water isn't going anywhere, right?

how did you guys step down/up your fittings? what type fittings did you use?

i just have to say thanks again to you fellas too. I'm 6 weeks in bud on my system and i have never seen crystals growing on fan leaf stems before...amazing. fucking amazing.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 4, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> i had a guy trying to tell me that if plants dont have a 15 deg decline at night, they dont produce as much bud... not true?


Not true. The only thing that truly matters is the fact that if you are growing a phenotype that is prone to turning blue or purple it will do that best if your daytime and night time temps vary by more than 15 degrees. That is because stress causes the changes. It is also quite well known that large temperatures swings such as 15 degrees and more stresses the plants leading to slower growth and lowering over all yield and potency.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 4, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> so the accumulator tank i want has 1" inlet/outlet fittings. i assume that it doesn't matter that my pump only has a 3/8 output since the water isn't going anywhere, right?
> 
> how did you guys step down/up your fittings? what type fittings did you use?
> 
> i just have to say thanks again to you fellas too. I'm 6 weeks in bud on my system and i have never seen crystals growing on fan leaf stems before...amazing. fucking amazing.


Amazing what one can learn when they get away from the typical threads read by all the newbies. In those threads the dim wits try to argue against anything that is not an established *myth*, or that does not come from some retailers market hype site. Those same dim wits when coming to this thread typically tuck their tails between their legs and run back to the newbie threads.


----------



## Paglia (Apr 4, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Amazing what one can learn when they get away from the typical threads read by all the newbies. In those threads the dim wits try to argue against anything that is not an established *myth*, or that does not come from some retailers market hype site. Those same dim wits when coming to this thread typically tuck their tails between their legs and run back to the newbie threads.


Im newbie and this thread for me is the best, very good for beginners to learn, unfortunately people often surrenders to the first difficulty.


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 4, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> so the accumulator tank i want has 1" inlet/outlet fittings. i assume that it doesn't matter that my pump only has a 3/8 output since the water isn't going anywhere, right?
> 
> how did you guys step down/up your fittings? what type fittings did you use?
> 
> i just have to say thanks again to you fellas too. I'm 6 weeks in bud on my system and i have never seen crystals growing on fan leaf stems before...amazing. fucking amazing.



https://www.icmag.com/modules/Journal/viewentry.php?journalid=507

This is my journal it's just starting,
but i have listed online stores that you should be able to get the parts you need..

many things to think about??

Many different ways to do it!


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 4, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> so the accumulator tank i want has 1" inlet/outlet fittings. i assume that it doesn't matter that my pump only has a 3/8 output since the water isn't going anywhere, right?
> 
> how did you guys step down/up your fittings? what type fittings did you use?
> 
> i just have to say thanks again to you fellas too. I'm 6 weeks in bud on my system and i have never seen crystals growing on fan leaf stems before...amazing. fucking amazing.


my tank has a 3/4 inch output line and my pump has a 3/8 inch line in and out. the 3/8 is pretty tipical for small diaphram type pumps. so the line from the pump i bumped up to 1/2 inch to run to the accumulator and to suck from the res. then reduced the accumulator outlet from 3/4 down to 1/2 inch to run to the selonoid which then breaks down to 1/4 inch to run to the nozzels. line sizes should always decrease after the selonoid leading towards the nozzels not increase.

if your going for HP try and always keep the line size going out to the actual nozzels as small as possible as this leaves the smallest amount possible in the lines after the selonoid closes thus leaving less solution to drip if other means arent taken to limit the drip. (ADV's etc.)you will also get quicker responses from the nozzles as there will be less volume to fill before the nozzle starts discharging.


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 4, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> What ambient temp are you able to fend off with that insulation treefarmer? I'm trying to keep the a/c bill down and running 4kw vert per plant.


ambient temps are around 80.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 5, 2010)

so what is the goal as far as yeilds are concerned? in sog, or tree form, whats the most yeilds you have gotten per plant in a relatively short amount of time?


----------



## Earl (Apr 5, 2010)

Let's see some pictures please.


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 5, 2010)

i've been looking at the nozzles everyone's using and i can't find those exact netafims atomizer has. i checked out greenhousemegastore but the nozzles don't look the same and the flow rate was pretty high. does anyone know if those adv valves from netafim will work with other systems? i can't tell what connection type they are or if they're proprietary to netafim foggers.

treefarmer, are you still happy with with your dig misters?

i've seen some impingement nozzles around that look like they might be effective...http://www.bete.com/

i asked them for a quote...i'm sure they're expensive.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

The goal as far as yields is concerened is really no more than what the same strain would do in a more conventional grow in a normal time period. Basically your talking for a SOG producing 12" plants in 5 or 6 weeks total with the same yield as 18" inch plats in 8 or 9 weeks. That means alos using less light ad the palnts are shorter, plus the growing periods is cut by one third cutting the energy needs by another one third, plus one third less CO2 and about 1/5 to 1/10 of the nutrient cost and water cost. Basically just growing as efficiently and as quickly as possible. It is however at this point easier to grow SOG in this manner in a shorter time than normal at a lesser cost than taller plants. Efficient HP aero and air atomixed aero tends to cause a bonzai effect by producing plants that have very short internodes. That is beneficial to a fast SOG grow but not so much for groiwng large trees. I myself doubt if am highly efficient aero used in a highy efficient manner will ever grow large taller plants any where near as tall as they would grow in a less efficient system when grown over a longer period of time. 

It really does not make much since to use an HP aero or air atomized system to grow a plant inefficiently through a long stretched out veg state and then switch to flowering in an efficient manner. That is basically what TAG is trying to accomplish with tall plant grows. They basically end up will tall thin scraggly plants that veg at a normal pace and veg at a quick rate. Sad finished results as the buds do not fill out as the palnts are too stretched with large internode spaces.

It requires a much greater grasp of an individual strains needs and a greater control over cycle times and nutrient control. With the desire for taller plants there seems to be more of a need to be less thah fully efficient until the needs can be found to suit the results you desire. 

HP aero or air atomized aero would not very likely grow an auto strain to any great size at all. They would mature and bud very quickly. The cost of auto seeds would just take to big a cut out of the eficiency though. It is just so efficient and seems to lead to very quick plant maturity that just doesn't happen with other methods. I am amxiously waiting on teg he NASA paid researchers to publish the results of aero hormonal tests. It will be very intersting what they find in relation to the faster maturation and short internodal spacing aspects of air atomized aero. No space farmer is going to be content with just growing super short quick maturity grains. They will want fruits and vegetable also. At the pace Nasa has slowed down to dues to defense spending mj growers information might easily out pace data from government research on aero growing. If the growers freely release their discoveries and collected testing and growing data.

IMHO At this point in time I doubt that any growers whether private, academic or government paid are going to widely share and definitely not publicly post all their data, full experiences or learned knowledge in regard to HP or air atomized growing of MJ or any other crop.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

Earl said:


> Let's see some pictures please.


No Earl. Not gonna happen. 

If you need photos put together a system, if you can. Then simply read the thread ad grow what you think best, and shoot away with your camera. If you want to learn something take chances and learn through experimentation, don't expect to get anywhere by just copying others at this thread and benefiting entirely at their expenses. No one at this thread is going to provide you with enough data for that or pictures for that Earl. Your an experienced grower and even a moderator at another forum, extend yourself rather than copying others because you think photos prove or disprove something. This is an adult information site not a photo album. 

If you have something to share please do so, other wise read what is here and be happy with that or simply go way if your not happy with what is already posted.

Saying please just really is not enough. Take a personal interest and tryi finding something to contribute that realtes to HP or aeroponic growing and maybe you will get to see private albums and receive private emails with photos. However, I really do not think you have anything to contribute that will make that happen though.


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 5, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The goal as far as yields is concerened is really no more than what the same strain would do in a more conventional grow in a normal time period. Basically your talking for a SOG producing 12" plants in 5 or 6 weeks total with the same yield as 18" inch plats in 8 or 9 weeks. That means alos using less light ad the palnts are shorter, plus the growing periods is cut by one third cutting the energy needs by another one third, plus one third less CO2 and about 1/5 to 1/10 of the nutrient cost and water cost. Basically just growing as efficiently and as quickly as possible. It is however at this point easier to grow SOG in this manner in a shorter time than normal at a lesser cost than taller plants. Efficient HP aero and air atomixed aero tends to cause a bonzai effect by producing plants that have very short internodes. That is beneficial to a fast SOG grow but not so much for groiwng large trees. I myself doubt if am highly efficient aero used in a highy efficient manner will ever grow large taller plants any where near as tall as they would grow in a less efficient system when grown over a longer period of time.
> 
> It really does not make much since to use an HP aero or air atomized system to grow a plant inefficiently through a long stretched out veg state and then switch to flowering in an efficient manner. That is basically what TAG is trying to accomplish with tall plant grows. They basically end up will tall thin scraggly plants that veg at a normal pace and veg at a quick rate. Sad finished results as the buds do not fill out as the palnts are too stretched with large internode spaces.
> 
> ...


i wouldn't mind publishing data if i ever got to that point...mj is such a localized product and around here there's such great demand and so little supply the growers are pretty congenial towards each other (most of them anyway...there's always a douchebag in the bunch). i've given cuttings away and had friends give me seeds and cuttings both. as we all know information is harder to transfer to others and with the attention to detail required for this stuff, most of the guys i know growing don't take the risk going hydro no matter how evangelistic i am.

are you using any hp nozzles in your tests Fatman?


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 5, 2010)

so what you are saying is a 6 week plant in hp aero can yeild as much as a well grown 8 week plant in another format? Or are you saying the yeilds are less or greater? About how much dried weight can you get off a single sog plant fatman? And do you lollipop or??


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

Yes the yields of clone based SOG with HP aero, or air atomized aero in 5 to 6 weeks will be as large as grows requiring more intense lighting, more CO2, more air conditioningm more nutrients, more water and more dehumification in a DWC, Ebb and Flow, NTF, low pressure aero etc while the plants are growing and it will do so in two to three weeks less growing time from clones using a drain to waste system. the plants will be shorter bay about onetho ird bi ut the interm node will be approximattly the same number but much closer together. The only real diss ficuly ty is fainding a strain that best fits the parametersyou are willing to consistently supply. As the water is drain to waster there will be no PH or EC adjustments of a recurculatory reservoir system. However it is a completely new set of growing methods to learn. Were talking about low EC nutrients (about 650 ppm or less) timers, solenoids, and either an accumalator tank and high pressure pumps and its gages and controls, valves pressure swich and relief valve, or an even more elaborate air atomized system. Your talking a ssytem that at just 3 or four feet square would retail for over $4000. Were talking about chambers or tents or huge self made tubes that allow for big roots systems to hand in air for c several feet.

However we are also talking about systems that not anyone here or on any other site knows evertything about yet. Not even the researchers working for Nasa have all the answers yet. Where talking systems that have to be dilaed in individually as there are so many vraibales and so little data yet accumulated. It is easier to learn what does not work well than what does work well. Mistakes show results faster in such a grow than in less efficient grows. Many problems in other systems never show up untill your roots start rotting or until you harvest and see how dismally the grow was verus the previous grow with the same clone stock even when you think you did everyhing the same for both grows. With these system problems are seen very quickly. The knowledge of know how to fix the problems though is not like other systems that have been used by thousands of others who have posted info to the forums however. Consider eve low pressure small tube aero when new few knew much and many crpos were lost for differing reasons. Things were learned and shared. Even now though there are people who still pass on myths about aero in small tubes. Things like the necessity for low nutrient temps and high reservoir DO or high EC nutrients and spraying with stream squirting sprayes from lame low pressure Danner pumps 24/7.

IN THIS THREAD OLD MYTHS ARE NOT PERPETUATED. There is a lot of new information and most of the data that applies to other grows just do not apply here. Things like temps really only apply here due to CO2 constraints not nutrient DO prior to spraying or reservoir bacteria or reservoir DO levels.

These are system where yo must think and learn not just try to copy someones else. Some would just say there is a large learning curve with these systems. In their design, building operation and use as well as continual leraning and adaptions there is a lot of learned need my many. Some will just never be able to deal with the challenges involved.


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 5, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> i've been looking at the nozzles everyone's using and i can't find those exact netafims atomizer has. i checked out greenhousemegastore but the nozzles don't look the same and the flow rate was pretty high. does anyone know if those adv valves from netafim will work with other systems? i can't tell what connection type they are or if they're proprietary to netafim foggers.
> 
> i've seen some impingement nozzles around that look like they might be effective...http://www.bete.com/
> 
> i asked them for a quote...i'm sure they're expensive.


Hi Clydefrog,
I had to get mine from a commercial agricultural supplier. The grey nozzles are much easier to find but have a longer throw and deliver a fair amount even with a 0.36 second pulse. You`d need to make custom adapters to use the adv`s with another type of nozzle.

Be prepared to take out a second mortgage for bete nozzles


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 5, 2010)

ok so my GC "Growth Chamber" is 


*Assembled Depth (in.) *: 21.5 in
*Assembled Height (in.) *: 18.62 in
*Assembled Weight (lb.) *: 12.15 lb
*Assembled Width (in.) *: 42.5 in
Question?

How many sites and sprayers per bin???


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 5, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> i've been looking at the nozzles everyone's using and i can't find those exact netafims atomizer has. i checked out greenhousemegastore but the nozzles don't look the same and the flow rate was pretty high. does anyone know if those adv valves from netafim will work with other systems? i can't tell what connection type they are or if they're proprietary to netafim foggers.
> 
> treefarmer, are you still happy with with your dig misters?
> 
> ...


 i dont use dig misters. i used those on my lp systems. the nozzels i now use put out .04 ounces per sec with approx. 50 micron droplets. the bete nozzles are good but they run about 30 dollars a piece. the dig nozzles wont work that well with 100psi as they are designed for under 80psi i believe. there good nozzles as i used them for years but not for above 80 psi.


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 5, 2010)

Dude Man
Your chamber is about 73.67 gal (279L) use the fewest number of nozzles that provide complete mist coverage with the lowest flowrate possible. The best idea is to test the nozzles to see what angle, throw and flowrate they have at your average system pressure and go from there.


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 5, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> ok so my GC "Growth Chamber" is
> 
> 
> *Assembled Depth (in.) *: 21.5 in
> ...


 you have to know the output flowrate of the nozzle and the pattern it produces to determine the proper amount and placement of the nozzles. every system will be different depending on the variables you have. the number of plants per chamber will also determine the number of nozzles needed for adequate coverage.


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 5, 2010)

I was thinking 8 misters spaced evenly a pod, With either 10 sites for short quick or 3 for big and tall? 
misters would be running at between 80 - 100 psi so that's 0.8 x 3.79 = 3032mL per/hr ,,, 3032/60 = 50.53mL per/min ,,, 50.53/60 = 0.842mL per/sec...

8 misters would give "under hypothetical laboratory situations" 13.475mL per/2 sec mist cycle?

I understand the math i think but i have no clue how much water a plant needs? it obviously depends on many factors but?

Part = MNRED
Color = Red
SprayAngle = 110°
Diameter * = 2'
Droplet SizeMicrons = 50
[email protected] 40 PSI = 0.6
[email protected] 80 PSI = 0.7
[email protected] PSI = 0.9


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 5, 2010)

Test one nozzle at 90psi using a 2 second pulse, and see how much water it delivers from start to finish. If its double the amount you expected you`ll need to half the number of nozzles or reduce the misting pulse by 50% to match the nozzles printed spec. 
Without testing its all...hit and hope


----------



## Earl (Apr 5, 2010)

I'm sorry to offend anyone by asking for photos.
I'm not interested in copying anyones design.
I would just like to see some root porn,
nothing that might compromise you to the man
or give away your wonderful ideas.
I just would like to see what all the fuss is about.






.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

I just would like to see what all the fuss is about.








Wow Earl you actually got a photo of the roots in your over packed little tubes before they rotted away. Looks like a NTF grow with the majority of the browning roots laying in water rather than up in the air like a properly built aero. What do you call that aberration?


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 5, 2010)

tree farmer said:


> i dont use dig misters. i used those on my lp systems. the nozzels i now use put out .04 ounces per sec with approx. 50 micron droplets. the bete nozzles are good but they run about 30 dollars a piece. the dig nozzles wont work that well with 100psi as they are designed for under 80psi i believe. there good nozzles as i used them for years but not for above 80 psi.


what are you currently using?

they were quick to respond with a quote: $27 apiece...but they are stainless so i guess they'd be darn near indestructible.

what do you think about the impingement design? is it unnecessary with your psi?


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 5, 2010)

Nozzles will need replacing sooner or later no matter what they are made of 

http://www.spraytec.com/21/spray-nozzles-wear-tear


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 5, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Nozzles will need replacing sooner or later no matter what they are made of
> 
> http://www.spraytec.com/21/spray-nozzles-wear-tear


Nice link.


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 5, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Nozzles will need replacing sooner or later no matter what they are made of
> 
> http://www.spraytec.com/21/spray-nozzles-wear-tear


that makes sense to a point...your article seems to recommend stainless/ceramic for ~75+psi and since i havent run across any 50 micron ceramic sprayers lately...

how often do you swap out your netafims?


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 5, 2010)

never..so far, i`m sure they will wear out a lot faster than stainless but they`re cheap enough. 
The first signs of wear would likely be a splattering of droplet sizes on the flat surfaces instead of a uniform sheet of steam-like condensation. 
A water jet cutter can cut through almost any material so its no surprise the nozzle orifice enlarges. The water exiting the orifice on an impingement nozzle is doing at least 135ft/sec..thats 92mph


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 5, 2010)

i think when i get it up and running again i should take a water sample and write it down in my journal than i could take samples every now and than and compare them?

you would think you would get more with wear any drop would mean a clog?

how do you think we could test it, with out a lab?


Edit: we should as a group try to write up a good thread, basely condense all this knowledge in to say one or two pages 93 pages on this thread alone!
I could start a mega thread and keep it neat? Than we could just add info, and try to fill the gaps. I could than cut the post and sort it in to the mega-thread like a new page or chapter?


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 5, 2010)

has anyone done any side by side grows, using the same room, possibly different res's, but same lights and strain, etc... using hp (80+psi) and mp 30psi? Im curious to see what the difference is in yeild and growth rates, etc. If no one has, what do you see being the predicted gains now that you all have done both ways it seems.


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 5, 2010)

Its easy to differentiate..a clog will reduce the nozzle flowrate, a worn nozzle will increase the flowrate due to the larger orifice. 
The recommended method is to replace the nozzles when the flowrate has increased by 10%..it could get expensive. Be very careful when measuring nozzle flowrates, entrained air and dissolved gases in the water can affect the results considerably. A telltale sign is the water collected from the nozzle will appear "milky" instead of clear. 

Imho, the thread is fine as it is, if they can`t handle reading 90 odd pages they definitely won`t have enough patience for hp aero


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 5, 2010)

im trying to understand where mist gets too fine? Ive read that foggers are useless once a plant grows too large. If thats the case, where is the peak point between too fine and too large of microns? 

Perhaps foggers have not been applied correctly? For instance, every time i see foggers used, they are used 24/7. Perhaps the roots need a chance to dry out? Or perhaps nutes need to be more concentraded with fogger use? 

Im trying to figure out if there is a way to avoid this hp nozzle expense. I know its been mentioned in this thread or another about the high speed spinning disks, and droplets of water falling on the disk, and geting small micron droplets off of it. The problem of couse is that the spray pattern is simply a small line of thickness. I think the cure to this could be to have a single shaft, with 5 or more disks, above eachother vertically, and small drippers placed in between each disks. The key would be coming up with a container that would make this effective. 

I know you guys have probably already been round and round with this stuff, but im still trying to understand why if finer mist is better... why foggers fall short? I know they do, im trying to understand the science behind it.


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 6, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> im trying to understand where mist gets too fine? Ive read that foggers are useless once a plant grows too large. If thats the case, where is the peak point between too fine and too large of microns?
> 
> Perhaps foggers have not been applied correctly? For instance, every time i see foggers used, they are used 24/7. Perhaps the roots need a chance to dry out? Or perhaps nutes need to be more concentraded with fogger use?
> 
> ...


from what i have learned foggers havent performed all that well because the droplet size is to small.
there is probably a thousand ways to create mist and i dont think any one of them is cheap or someone would be using it. Hp aero is more expensive but i dont think trying to invent a new way to create mist will achieve much. you might have a breakthru but it probably would take alot of time and money to develop another way to create the mist.

i dont know of anyone who has done a side by side test to determine the yield difference from HP to LP. im only on the second run and have not even learned how to run my system to its full potential and i dont know anyone else that has even done one run. 

there is just a lack of experiences to draw from when it comes to this subject. to be honest It takes time and alot of skill and patience and money to learn to run these systems properly. at least it has for me. maybe someone else it wont. it sure has been fun though.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 6, 2010)

Water droplet size is crucial for sustaining aeroponic growth. Too large a water droplet means less oxygen is available to the root system. Too fine a water droplet, such as those generated by the ultrasonic mister, produce excessive root hair without developing a lateral root system for sustained growth in an aeroponic system.

Stoner, R.J. and J.M. Clawson (1997-1999 ). _A High Performance, Gravity Insensitive, Enclosed Aeroponic System for Food Production in Space._ Principal Investigator, NASA SBIR NAS10-98030.


· J.M. Clawson, A.Hoehn, L.S. Stodieck, P.W. Todd, R. Stoner, "Re-examining Aeroponics for Space Flight Plant Growth", 30th International Conference on Environmental Systems, 10-13 July 2000, Toulouse. 
· Stoner II, R. , NASA SBIR NAS10-00017 Low-mass, Inflatable Aeroponic System for High Performance Food Production, Phase1 (Phase1 1999-2000) 
· Stoner II, R. , NASA SBIR 1998 NAS10-98030 A High Performance, Gravity Insensitive, Enclosed Aeroponic System for Food Production in Space, (Phase1 1997-1999 ).
· Stoner II, R.., Linden, J., Knutson, K., Stoner Sr., R., Kreisher, J. , Patent (2001) "PDS -Tuber Planting System ", United States: #6,193,988 Schorr, S., Stoner, R., (Assigned to Genisis Technology) Patent (1985), "Methods and Apparatus for Aeroponic Growing of Plants.", United States: #4,514,930, 
· Stoner, R. J. (1983). "Aeroponics Versus Bed and Hydroponic Propagation." Florists' Review 173 (4477). 

*AgriHouse, Inc. dba Aeroponics International Aeroponics International is principally owned by Stoner. IE Do not expect too much data to be publicly released in regard to HP and air atomized aeroponics.*


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 6, 2010)

so wait, foggers create too much root hair?

if thats the case, this is what im getting at... there has to be a midpoint for max growth and yeild.

If the fogger creates too much root hair, i think the simple solution would be to mix the best of both worlds perhaps?

Think if one ran a 30psi sprayer for a second or 2. Got the roots wet. Then for the next 5, 8, 10 min (time would have to be determined) the sprayers were kept off, and the fogger ran.

Youd get best of both worlds would you not?


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 6, 2010)

i am surprised with as much technical attention to detail you guys have, that no one has deviated from a 12/12 light cycle. 

For instance, i remember reading a while back that plants can only absorb so much light until they need to take a break. This break is typically night time, but more often than not ive read that plants are ready to shut down long before night arrives.

What im getting at is 8 hours on... or 6 hours on... and 12 hours off.

This does a couple things. Saves electricity, for the total ratio of lights being on vs being off changes.

It also makes the plant age quicker into maturity supposedly because it thinks more days have happened, and that somehow helps trigger budding.

Anyone toy with these methods yet?


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 6, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> never..so far, i`m sure they will wear out a lot faster than stainless but they`re cheap enough.
> The first signs of wear would likely be a splattering of droplet sizes on the flat surfaces instead of a uniform sheet of steam-like condensation.
> A water jet cutter can cut through almost any material so its no surprise the nozzle orifice enlarges. The water exiting the orifice on an impingement nozzle is doing at least 135ft/sec..thats 92mph


thanks for sharing. now that you mentioned it, i think i remembered seeing netafim products in my hort. supply house's catalog.

i would think the wear on an impingement nozzle would be on the tip rather than the orifice. the lady at bete was real nice, but with me running such a large chamber with so many misters...i don't think $27 a mister is very cost effective.

how long have you been using those netafims?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 6, 2010)

The most extension scientific testing of aeroponics has been done by Stoner for NASA. It is the results of his extensive testing in publicly released abstracts and short research reports that the water droplet size of droplet size of 50 microns was nrough to the attention of the agricultural community. Years of testing since has shown that the droplet size determinations still appear correct. Stoner also relaesed data as to the minimum amount of nutrient water and the maximum. Ideal would varied due to the differing crops and the many other variables as far as grwoing parameters. 

I have grown med pressure aero with large percentages of hair roots but not as cost effectively and efficiently as is managed with HP or air atomized. 

So far I have only put together and started up usage of 54 square feet of air atomized chambers. However 18 square feet is for just cloning and veg growth. I have a very large number of square feet in medium pressure misted 8" by 23.5" inch tubes with medium pressure misters. They are running at 35 to 40 psi. They do thrown out a larger range of droplets sizes but but the majority are like still around 50 to 60 microns. 

The plants that have been vegged out and budded in the air atomized chambers as a small test all grew more rapidly with less light (48.61 watts per foot verus 76.38 watts per foot) a lot less air conditioning, as well as less CO2 and dehumidification than those same clones grown previously in the same grow room with large tube medium pressure aero. I grew a 144 plant SOG grow. Three weeks total for cloning and veg plus 5 weeks budding to light/medium amber. These are indica/afghani that were taking almost 8 weeks for the same yield harvested at the same resin color at about 16 grams of dried bud per plant. (700 grams per square meter in 5 weeks). I left the heating and air conditioning thermostats and the humidistat at the same settings as well as the CO2 ppm meter. My CO2 tank sets on a scale so I know how much is used (about 30% less). So at this point without really dialing in for top performance but just changing to a better nutrient delivery system that shortened the plants allowing for less lighting watts the grow has put out about the same yield, with one week less vegging, 3 weeks less budding, 1/3 less lighting watts, 30% less CO2. I do not have my airconditioning or dehumidifier on a watt miser so I do not know that usage but I know it is less. My nutrient and water usage is down 1/2 for the same yield. Over all it seems like the growing costs per gram will be an bout 45% less. I will with the next few grows bud for 6 weeks to a darker resin as I need too swap out about half the room for newplants every 3 weeks to keep the system running smoothly in a continous grow. This will allow 9.3 cycles per year instead of 7. That means about 32 percent more yield of a a darker more potent bud for about 35% less growing cost. That is about 1.3 grams per watt in 6 weeks. Total electrical cost about 470 per crop. Which means about 0.85 kwk per gram. IE about 21 cents per gram for total electrical usage.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 6, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> i am surprised with as much technical attention to detail you guys have, that no one has deviated from a 12/12 light cycle.
> 
> For instance, i remember reading a while back that plants can only absorb so much light until they need to take a break. This break is typically night time, but more often than not ive read that plants are ready to shut down long before night arrives.
> 
> ...


In the seventies we use to put a lot of small wattage light bulbs in the grow room so we could run the halide annd HPS less hours per day. We would turn on the small bulbs and turn off the large lights so as to save power and because some thought the plant only grew well a few hours per day. The comical thing was back in the early seveties the typical lighting was 10 watts of halide persquare foot with 5 watts per square foot of HPS added during budding. And people wonder why the potency keeps increasing. Betterand more lighting, better nutrients, hydroponics and a ready source of quality seeds rather than what ever bag seed you could get sure makes a hugh difference. 

Doctorate candidate student researchers have a tendency at times to leave important things out of research testing parameters when trying to prove or dissprove there educated opinions.

A while back research was done in a greenhouse supplemented with CO2. The research as an "incidental discovery" supporting his theory that plants growth slowed after mid afternoon daily and that supplementing the CO2 was of no use in the afternioons but only in the morm nings. He stated his rearch testing showed a decrease of CO2 uptake after the ppm was raised to offset the high afternnon temperature. He stated CO2 uptake was larger before the CO2 was raised in concentration. He stated this was due to their being too high of a concentration of CO2 for the plants reduced rate of growth in the afternoon as plant growth slowed always just after mid day as they could only grow at high rtaes for a few hours per day. Surprisingly he was able to defend his research study against peer review prior to the publishing as no one seemed to go to his report presentation except his own mentor who also was involved with the saeme reserach.

Reviw by his peers since then have literally tore his research and limited testing to shreds.

For example. He did not bother to report that the testing was done in a old poorly retriofitted green houae where there was no venting of hot moist air during CO2 injection from bottled CO2. Usually humidity in greenhouses is controlled through venting and very large fans and CO2 is supplied by a generator even while ruuning the fans and uusing vents. Humidity readings were not even collected during the research testing. 

What should have been brought up in earlier peer review would have kept the report from ever being published. Of course as the reports seemed to be a new discovery contrary to past research reports it was widely published. The fact that was not brought up is that high temps and high levels of CO2 with high lighting means high transporation and therefore high humidity. With high humidity the transpiration stops as water does not evapoarte from the stomata. Therefore the stomata close and no more CO2 is taken up and plant f growth slows. In modern green houses the humidity is controlled. In grow rooms the humidity should be controlled. 

Ie if the growing environment is controlled plant growth only slows if pramters are not balanced. Ie plants like some dark time as respiration is easier in the dark and because some processes within the plant operate easier in the dark. mj plants will grow under 24 hours of light per day and auto strains will still bud under24 hours of light per day.


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 6, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> thanks for sharing. now that you mentioned it, i think i remembered seeing netafim products in my hort. supply house's catalog.
> 
> i would think the wear on an impingement nozzle would be on the tip rather than the orifice. the lady at bete was real nice, but with me running such a large chamber with so many misters...i don't think $27 a mister is very cost effective.
> 
> how long have you been using those netafims?


The impingement nozzles would wear on both pin and orifice,that wouldn`t be good as the pin is the same diameter as the orifice. As the orifice gets bigger some of the water will probably miss the pin altogether.

$27 is a bargain, where i`m located Bete want $84.50 each! thats for stainless, the brass version isn`t much cheaper.

I have some netafims that are a couple of years old that are still ok, the purple ones haven`t had much mileage but i expect they should last a fair while. A sub 1 second pulse shouldn`t wear them as fast as running for 5 minutes solid.

A 0.5sec/3 mins cycle equates to about 4 minutes running time over 24hours.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 6, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> In the seventies we use to put a lot of small wattage light bulbs in the grow room so we could run the halide annd HPS less hours per day. We would turn on the small bulbs and turn off the large lights so as to save power and because some thought the plant only grew well a few hours per day. The comical thing was back in the early seveties the typical lighting was 10 watts of halide persquare foot with 5 watts per square foot of HPS added during budding. And people wonder why the potency keeps increasing. Betterand more lighting, better nutrients, hydroponics and a ready source of quality seeds rather than what ever bag seed you could get sure makes a hugh difference.
> 
> Doctorate candidate student researchers have a tendency at times to leave important things out of research testing parameters when trying to prove or dissprove there educated opinions.
> 
> ...


Your last paragraph seems contradictory. My experience has been that 24hrs light works but not any better and in some cases worse than 18/6 depending on strain and how much growth is pushed during lights on.

Is this what you were trying to say, or am I wrong or missing something?

Also I never realized you were still running MP aero on your large scale grow. So even you aren't prepared to run the whole thing hp yet for some reason?

And lastly on using smaller lights during some lights on time, I was thinking of trying to use that idea now that I switched to a power company plan that gives me cheap power in off peak times from 10pm to 6m. I'd need 4 more hours of lights on and with HID's it would cost 3-4x the cheap rate at those peak times. How horribly would yield and stretch be affected or do you have any other ideas on that? I could run twice the lights less time then back down or all the lights 12/12 and just eat the power spike or ?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 6, 2010)

Your last paragraph seems contradictory. My experience has been that 24hrs light works but not any better and in some cases worse than 18/6 depending on strain and how much growth is pushed during lights on.

Is this what you were trying to say, or am I wrong or missing something?


Auto strains do not care what the light cycle is. They grow larger with longer light cycles, even 24 hours per day. Ruderakis grows in an area naturally much like the Alaska's interior or just above the arctic circle where there is as much as 23 to 24 hours of daily sunlight in June. Ruderalis usually buds just after the longest days of summer in Alaska or Russia when grown out side without use of a green house.

Myself I never grow anything with 24/7 lighting indoors as I think it makes the plants more prone to problems such as mutations, and predator insects and i disease. While many people tout the possibility that a plant can grow larger with 24 hours per day I think it is still debateable. I have never found any scientic data or reserch reports however tha show plants need a long t night period of say four to eight hours. Only reports that show some plant processes take place more easily without the presence of UV lighting and high levels of radiated heat. IE when no tbeing exposed to direct sun light or intense lighting.

Myself I never grow anything with 24/7 lighting indoors as I think it makes the plants more prone to problems such as mutations, and predator insects and i disease. I grow some huge outdoor bushes in the long houred summers here, though I do not bring them in and bud them. They grow much to lare and bushy to bud out under a standard amount of lighting. Were talking reall bushes about 8 to 10 foot tall. I do however take huge numbers of cutting from their back sides that no one can see from the street. I grow the plants in plain site as state law allows 24 plants per adult member of the house hold. They are not harvested for use ofther than the cuttings. 


While many people tout the possibility that a plant can grow larger with 24 hours per day I think it is still debateable. I have never found any scientic data or reserch reports however tha show plants need a long t night period of say four to eight hours. Only reports that show some plant processes take place more easily without the presence of UV lighting and high levels of radiated heat. IE when no tbeing exposed to direct sun light or intense lighting.

Also I never realized you were still running MP aero on your large scale grow. So even you aren't prepared to run the whole thing hp yet for some reason?

Grows! Time and money mainly.

I have may large scale grows. Only the test bed experimental grow room in my home is small and not even all that small in comparison to most hobby grows. Fully set up it contains 108 square feet. It allows me to grow two to four grows at matching temps and humidity and CO2 levels while using different lighting, nutrient delivery methods and/or different nutrient formulations etc for comparative testing. They are also fully monitored with out put feeds of parameter data for data logs on a computer. They are equivalent to any reserachers grow test equipment used in universities. Basically a lot of Hach analyzer/controllers and monitors with analog sending units. Plus I have a laboratory in my home. No really expensive equipment. The top equipment cost is my two Hach spectrophotometers. 
No automatic gas chromatography or nuclear resonance imaging euipment. However, I do have a lot of money tied up in ion specific electrodes though as they allow me to test my drain to waste nutrient water easily.


My home grow room at this time is half large chamber air atomized aeros with large capacity side nozzles and half large tube aeros where small capacity air atomized nozzles every linera group of for SOG plants I just just half the medium pressure nozzles previously in use and plugged the other half of the meium pressure aero mister holes in the tubes. I had hoped to find them as effective as chamber grows, and they are but it requires four times as many small but equally expensive nozzles and more air. 


This means I will be replacing all my large tubes in the large system with chambers. The labor involved is also much lower with the chambers as my lids are in sections so the cloned/veg plants are moved in the lid sections to the budding chambers. This means I can use cheap 2" net cups and not have to worry about damaging roots pulling them through and pushing them through small holes. Plus I can move lids sections that are 18" inches square with each move. That is very quick and easy. The cloning and vegging is done in the same net pot and in the same tray and the whole tray at one time replaces the old tray in the budding chamber. A lot lot less labor and easier on the roots.

The grow rooms out side of the one in my home are large and remote. I am employeed full time at a Universt ity and also work duru ing the summer and the work and expenses involved means full conversions will take place over a period of about a year. That and the fact that with air atomized aero I have no more real data to work with than others do with HP aero. Look up the price of silent oil less compressors or even the nozzles and adapters for air atomized growing and you will likely be quite shocked. Air atomixzed is much more expensive than HP aero for just the basic beginning components. Your looking at $50 to $150 per nozzle and adapter. Plus the most efficient feed method is gravity feed nutrients so your talking at laest on solenoid per each nozzle. I have two nozzle per chamber plus two installed back up per chamber. Plus extra back up nozzles to install when acid cleaning nozzles to remove carbonates. Plus I use very large air tanks so as yto have at least 48 to 72 hours of air on line. Plus a small back up airpump for each system.


I have in use many EC and pH pumps, pH controllers and pumps as well as auto top off devives using eristaltic pumps.

No wife or kids at home anymore, and the kids andgrand kids all live thousands of miles away. That has its advantages. You don't want to know though how many college educations I either pay for fully or in part.


If you ever develop and interest in EC controllers or Ph controllers etc let me know. I have dozens of extras I can sell cheap. Also mant laboratory grade pH meters, EC meters and DO meters. Lots and lots of Masterflex peristaltic pumps heads and pump motors.

And lastly on using smaller lights during some lights on time, I was thinking of trying to use that idea now that I switched to a power company plan that gives me cheap power in off peak times from 10pm to 6m. I'd need 4 more hours of lights on and with HID's it would cost 3-4x the cheap rate at those peak times. How horribly would yield and stretch be affected or do you have any other ideas on that? I could run twice the lights less time then back down or all the lights 12/12 and just eat the power spike or ?

Wow. Well first MJ is called Californias #. cash crop for a reason. Even with high power cost mj is cheap to grow and the return on your investment is large as long as your not spendinfg it on lawyers and replacing confisacted equipment etc. Yes your yield will drop and your growing cyckle time will increase some with less ntense lighting used for part of the daily light cycle. With a full environmentally controlled romm, Lighting, temp, humidity, nutrient deliver and CO2 the growth witl be constant at virtually the same rate over the full period of lighting withintensse lighting. It obviously will drop to nearly no growth with minimal lighting as were talking a bunch of 5 watt light bulbs is all. To prevent stretched out growth during that time of minimal lighting you would need to drop the CO2 and temp. with the lower temp you would also need to drop the humidity.

Yes you could increase lighting during full light periods as long as you can keep the humidity low and the CO2 high at say 1500 to 2000 ppm, andprovide adequate nutrient delivery. I have grown mj with lighting at 120 watts per square foot with water cooled tubes and reflectors using medium pressure aero and air conditioning, dehumification and CO2 at temps of 95 to 105. However there are no discounts for non peak hours here so it was really not advantageous. It did shorten the grow period a great deal. Massive amounts of water was transpired. A dehumifier would neede a drain if used in a large grow. The simple little catch drawers would fill quickly as they usually are way too small to hold the maximum the dehumidifer can pull from the room in ome day.

Auto strains do not care what the light cycle is. They grow larger with longer light cycles, even 24 hours per day. Ruderakis grows in an area naturally much like the Alaska's interior or just above the arctic circle where there is as much as 23 to 24 hours of daily sunlight in June. Ruderalis usually buds just after the longest days of summer in Alaska or Russia when grown out side without use of a green house.

Myself I never grow anything with 24/7 lighting indoors as I think it makes the plants more prone to problems such as mutations, and predator insects and i disease. While many people tout the possibility that a plant can grow larger with 24 hours per day I think it is still debateable. I have never found any scientic data or reserch reports however tha show plants need a long t night period of say four to eight hours. Only reports that show some plant processes take place more easily without the presence of UV lighting and high levels of radiated heat. IE when no tbeing exposed to direct sun light or intense lighting.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 6, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Your last paragraph seems contradictory. My experience has been that 24hrs light works but not any better and in some cases worse than 18/6 depending on strain and how much growth is pushed during lights on.
> 
> Is this what you were trying to say, or am I wrong or missing something?
> 
> ...


Thanks, yes it pays for itself lighting wise but it's not paying for itself yet. 

I have to do the best I can with the least investment on my last dime.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 6, 2010)

You do realise that large well set up and managed in door grows usually provide a 500% to 1000% return on investments with sg hort terms equipment depreciation. Large scale irrigated outside grows in a warm climate are usually provide half again more return on investments.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 6, 2010)

Sure, realize I'm disabled and broke and still fighting with social security to get enough benefits to even survive, and I'm working with scraps and junk to a large degree.

I had to collect a pallet of warehouse lights, wire it all myself, buy used, scrap, make due on nothing etc etc. I'm at the point where I almost have enough to do something with, but not the money to really run it. Treading water going nowhere while I save up enough just to run a real room. When I have the funds and all the ducks in a row it has to rock and I already made mistakes which cost me time and money I didn't have.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 6, 2010)

I have over 35 years experience designing hydroponic systems. Yiur planned grwowing methodology is not an energy or cost efficient system nor is it a cheap low investment system. Its only real avantage is that it will withstand the stresses related to pump circuit failures better than an aero system and that it will not have the root rot problens associatted with small tube aeros systems, NTF systems, poorly constructed Ebb and Flow systems or standard DWC with poor circulation systems.

For large yields and low investment the easiest and cheapest system to set up is a large tube medium pressure aero using an Iwaki md-40RZT or MD-70RZT 15 to 40 psi pump, standard sprayers with pump running 24/7 with solenoids used as a divertor system. That way the spray is intermittant. The large tubes cost $20 to $35 each for a 6" by 20" tube 8 foot long. Depending on which plastic you choose. To assure water delivery you just install a flow valve on your pumps discharge. If at any time it loses flow it triggers a switch supplying power to another circuit supplying poeer to another pump. Of course this will not help for a full power outage but there are always chances such as that with any systems.

I mainly chose to upgrade to air atomized aero as I can long term yiels and also potency without remote building expansions or adding more grow sites. I chose atomized over HP because it is more adjustable and because large air tanks are more economical that many small high pressure accumlator tanks or a large accumulator tank. Plus the air compressors have longer life spans than the HP pumps as well as the fact that the air atomized systems are just energy wise more efficient as water just isn't as compresive as air. Plus ther are more readily adjstbale by using the many many different size nozzles, or adjusting nutrient feed heights ar adjsting air pressure or a combination of those three, plus cycle adjstments. I think over a long period of time the costs with a large system are likely pretty comaparable energy wise. Labor and maintenace costs in the long term would likely be higher with the air atomized system.

*IMHO* 

Neither the HP or air atomized system is a low cost system that is likely cost effective for small grows without also tieing in the other system boosters to allow for high temp (faster) grows such as airconditioning, dehumidification and CO2. It is really not cost effective to have the best nutrient delivery system possible when you can not really utilize it well. Plants don't want just a great nutrient and air root DO delivery suystem. The want a great everything system. For the best results and for the best return on your investments you provibe all conditions opto imixed in a balanced system. Not just a better D and nutrient delivery ssytem. That is like supplying a too high EC, or too much light, or eccessive unneeded CO2 or too much dehumification for the transpiration rate taking place, or excessive temperatures in relation to other pramaters. 

High pressure aero is not a fix all. It is merely a best delivery system for DO, water and nutrients that allow you to max out your other parameters and get the bestresulyts in the shortest amount of time. But if the only thing you do is supply HP aero or air atomixed aero all your really doing is growing Bozai mj plants at a higher investment cost. Your cycle time will a ltle shorten as the plants will be smaller but your yield will not be as good without all parameters also being in balance with the high DO, water and nutrient deliver rate. Plus to get the most groth in the shortest cycle you need tebest balance you can provide. It is unlikely that will ever happen without high temps low humidity die to dehumicification and high par through loh ght optomxed for bomzai plants. That means may low wattage halides or HPS the are cooled by water placed just an inch or two above the plant canopy. The smaller light wattages also mean higher initial investments but they allow for low wattage use with closely placed lamps as the high intensity of larger bulbs is not needed with 10" to 18" plants budded in 5 or 6 weeks. That means horizontal lights with parabolic refectors at sizes like 3' by 2' for 2 or 3 foot chambers side by side. Ie SOGS. Luckily I have bought neraly nothing but low wattage halide and HPs for years now. Large wattage lights are not a good choice for SOG plants as the light distribution is far from even at close placement of lights (as is most efficient) and raising the light to get better distribution lowers the PAR too much. IE the only advantage to high watt lights is increased depth of intense lighting (therefore for tall plants, and the fact that 4 250watts light ballasts and bulbs plus four refelectors etc cost motre than one 1000 watt light. But with large grows, ec specially large commercial grows efficiency and better utilization capabilitoes of multiple small lights very quickly offsets the lower initial investment costs of poor utilizable large wattage plants.

*IMHO* I think big tress will be a much larger challenge for a long time yet to come unless there are more people willing to spend the time and efforts with the much larger testing needed for taller plant grows especially if the grows do not utilize full parameter controls.

*IMHO* While a tall plant grown indoors looks impressive it just is not as economically and efficiently or quickly grown as a huge number of very quickly grown small plants. Over aperiod of time when total costs are calculated in the indoor SOs grows are juts a higher retum on invetment grwing method than taller more physically impresive looking plants.


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 7, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I have over 35 years experience designing hydroponic systems. Yiur planned grwowing methodology is not an energy or cost efficient system nor is it a cheap low investment system. Its only real avantage is that it will withstand the stresses related to pump circuit failures better than an aero system and that it will not have the root rot problens associatted with small tube aeros systems, NTF systems, poorly constructed Ebb and Flow systems or standard DWC with poor circulation systems.
> 
> For large yields and low investment the easiest and cheapest system to set up is a large tube medium pressure aero using an Iwaki md-40RZT or MD-70RZT 15 to 40 psi pump, standard sprayers with pump running 24/7 with solenoids used as a divertor system. That way the spray is intermittant. The large tubes cost $20 to $35 each for a 6" by 20" tube 8 foot long. Depending on which plastic you choose. To assure water delivery you just install a flow valve on your pumps discharge. If at any time it loses flow it triggers a switch supplying power to another circuit supplying poeer to another pump. Of course this will not help for a full power outage but there are always chances such as that with any systems.
> 
> ...


man alive fatman, you've been busy.

i've been wanting to go to lower wattages for a while now but its been hard to justify the extra cost in my mind...but you're getting me there. so if you're running 250's are you stacking them one right next to each other? that's asstons of capital invested in lights.


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 7, 2010)

well i started one anyways,

well i did not know you guys were so touchy!!

I though information was free??

i did not know you wanted money for asking a few questions??

I know that's not what you are saying?

if it makes you feel better i could mirror thew thread on this site to???

just remember it's not US against US!!!

it's US against them!!

if i could gather free information to help some poor guy grow his own and end our dependence on foreign MJ than fine call me a asshole!!

I have cut and pasted facts only i have not stolen anything?????


the information for people to grow your own should be free!!!!


----------



## tree farmer (Apr 7, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> well i started one anyways,


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 7, 2010)

Its pretty bad manners to take something without asking. 
Setting your parachute alight when you plan to jump out of the aeroplane isn`t a smart thing to do. Best of luck with your grow, i think you may be needing it


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 7, 2010)

or am i taking you guys the wrong way?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 7, 2010)

Dude Man said:


> well i started one anyways,
> 
> well i did not know you guys were so touchy!!
> 
> ...


Dude
Drop the holistic its us against them crap. This is not a AN Fat Mikie Straumetic site for the underground community of growers. 

This is a site for selling seeds for profit. That fact is merely thinly veiled by the seed sellers also providing a free site for growers to communicate with each other. The fact that growing pot is a commom topic is simply a good deal for the seed growers as it increases seed sells. This is not a Norml or activist site. This is not a net work of AN dim wits.

You have indeed stolen material by not supplying a reference and posting inforamtion as if it is your own. Some call it theft of intelectual material, most just call it plagiarism. At least admit what yoiu did was tacky instead of spouting the we against them free sharing of info crap that no adult would buy. I hope the extra viewers numbers gained by posting without references to anothers intellectual material fed your ego real well dude. 

A cut and paste without also posting a reference is simply plagiarism (theft). My not supplying a refernce you are implying the material is your own. In an acedemic situation your paper or post would be rejected if you were a student. You could possibly be expelled under a violation of a plagiarism clause common to all schools. You could be barred from future enrollment under a typical University morals clause due to plagiarism. In the civilian community you are liable for theft for plagirism.


A person need not copy right or register their work to sucessfully win such law suits. They do not even need to show they have been hurt by the plagiarism.


*Plagiarism*, as defined in the 1995 _Random House Compact Unabridged Dictionary_, is the "use or close imitation of the language and thoughts of another author and the representation of them as one's own original work."[1]

*References:*
1)*^* qtd. in Stepchyshyn, Vera; Robert S. Nelson (2007). _Library plagiarism policies_. Assoc of College & Resrch Libraries. p. 65. ISBN0838984169.

IE Simply post a name of the author of the information etc and post a link and then it is no longer plagiarism as you are giving credit to them rather than claiming it as yours. Pretty simple Dude.

Have a good day.


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 7, 2010)

This thread will be dedicated to the gathering of information, related to HP-Aeroponic Growing.


I am new it this type of growing but, I will learn and try to record my information and information gathered from other people, So together we can learn how to grow more environmentally friendly. The main ecological advantages of aeroponics are the conservation of water and energy. When compared to hydroponics, aeroponics offers lower water and energy inputs per square meter of growing area. When used commercially, Aeroponics uses one-tenth of the water otherwise necessary to grow the crop but this can be reduced to as little as one-twentieth.

Just post the info of link to it so i can add it, that way all the information can be stored in one place so we won't have to spend months reinventing the wheel, and also if you want to try some thing new you can see if it's been done before.



that's the first post, so don't jump to conclusions!!


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 7, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I have over 35 years experience designing hydroponic systems. Yiur planned grwowing methodology is not an energy or cost efficient system nor is it a cheap low investment system. Its only real avantage is that it will withstand the stresses related to pump circuit failures better than an aero system and that it will not have the root rot problens associatted with small tube aeros systems, NTF systems, poorly constructed Ebb and Flow systems or standard DWC with poor circulation systems.
> 
> For large yields and low investment the easiest and cheapest system to set up is a large tube medium pressure aero using an Iwaki md-40RZT or MD-70RZT 15 to 40 psi pump, standard sprayers with pump running 24/7 with solenoids used as a divertor system. That way the spray is intermittant. The large tubes cost $20 to $35 each for a 6" by 20" tube 8 foot long. Depending on which plastic you choose. To assure water delivery you just install a flow valve on your pumps discharge. If at any time it loses flow it triggers a switch supplying power to another circuit supplying poeer to another pump. Of course this will not help for a full power outage but there are always chances such as that with any systems.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tips, I've been considering all the same things myself. 

I have to learn and try everything, I'm just that way, but much/most of my grow will be in a simple setup I can't screw up, at least this time.

Some things you won't hear me talk about just because it's boring, this stuffs fun.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 7, 2010)

I understand what your saying. I had to use a peristaltic pump head that would deliver 100 psi and a small accumalator RO system tank to power up a few HP mister heads before I ordered air atomized heads. Then I had to try out existing large aero tubes with air atomized misters before I could commit to building chambers to replace them. I have learned to do small scale testing before making large scale decisions. It is not easy to tell a medical marijuana user that their is no product for them because you made upgrade changes that were not wise choices. Telling a cancer patient you do not have the only thing that makes their chemo treatments tolerables not easy.


----------



## AeroTrek (Apr 7, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The goal as far as yields is concerened is really no more than what the same strain would do in a more conventional grow in a normal time period. Basically your talking for a SOG producing 12" plants in 5 or 6 weeks total with the same yield as 18" inch plats in 8 or 9 weeks. That means alos using less light ad the palnts are shorter, plus the growing periods is cut by one third cutting the energy needs by another one third, plus one third less CO2 and about 1/5 to 1/10 of the nutrient cost and water cost. Basically just growing as efficiently and as quickly as possible. It is however at this point easier to grow SOG in this manner in a shorter time than normal at a lesser cost than taller plants. Efficient HP aero and air atomixed aero tends to cause a bonzai effect by producing plants that have very short internodes. That is beneficial to a fast SOG grow but not so much for groiwng large trees. I myself doubt if am highly efficient aero used in a highy efficient manner will ever grow large taller plants any where near as tall as they would grow in a less efficient system when grown over a longer period of time.


Fatman,

I prefer the sativa strain but have always found myself running out of ceiling hight when using DWC. Would your statement also refer to the naturally tall and long node spacing found in the sativa strains? Would they be substantially shorted even into flowering when they normally take off?



Dude Man said:


> ok I am done, i can see you are ass holes!
> 
> by me explaining what a pressure switch is?
> 
> ...




I don't recall where I've read it but this quote should say a lot "There is no such thing as invention just innovation". From the beggining of time we have taken what was there and improved on it. For example Nobel was noted for inventing dynamite but, most likely his buddy did but happened to be standing too close when it was realized. LOL

In any case, to use someones work and claim it as your own will only lead to disasters as only the originator knows the reprocussions in whatever innovations where made.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 7, 2010)

Yes HP fine mist intermittent spray aero or air atomized aero will shorten the internode spacing on sativa also if run based upon water uptake efficiency. This means shorter plants. There comes the problem with what is optimal with an efficient aero system and what is too efficient and therefore not necessarily optimal. mj plants are quite fine with just growing enough in size to be able to quickly reach maturity so as to reproduce. They really do not care whether they grow to huge heights. If all their needs are provided to them in a very efficient manner then they grow in a very efficient manner, meaning shorter and bushier than when growing in more traditional manners or when grown outside in soil. That can be pushed to hugh extremes where sativa 10 foot standard strains can be grown to maturity and bloom at a height such as 2 to 3 feet. 3 to 4 foot indicas can be grown at 1 to 1.5 foot heights.

What remains to be seen is if growing at extreme levels of efficiency as far as water and nutrient delivery allows for the growth of tall plants. It might be necessary to actually grow with less efficiency by over watering or under nuteing so as to not cause such short growth by causing a more lateral root growth and less hair root growth or by up taking less nutrients and therefor slowly maturity and causing larger inter nodal spacing so as to actually grow taller plants.

If you research Hemp growing in relation to inter nodal spacing and heights you would find that, plants grown in heavy soils where water and nutrient uptake is more limited than in loose more friable soils high in organic manner, actually grew taller with larger inter nodal spaces, and that they budded later in the season and produced less seed as they matured more slowly. Hemp grown in parts of fields where the soils were more often saturated or nearly saturated with water produced the same taller but slower maturing results due to lesser nutrient availability.

What this would mean is if a grower wished to grow a single crop in a greenhouse set up with a HP or air atomized 50 micro droplet size water delivery system cycled for highest water and nutrient uptake efficiency could start the grow a month or more later than usual for a standard grow. The plants would still reach the maturity needed for budding and setting seed in the shorter season. The plants would be shorter as the efficiency causes short inter node spacing. The plants would also finish faster. This would make such a system quite advantageous for green hose growers in areas of shorter growing seasons. IE Alaska and the Canadian Yukon areas. The light in temperate climates would be intense enough that the bushiness and therefore thick foliage would not be the issue it is in indoor grows so there would be strong budding over the whole plant rather than the thick bushy foliage blocking light penetration to all but the tops cola and branch tips. IE yield would be higher without the need for SOG growing. Trying to provide enough intense lighting for a bushy plant in and indoor plant lowers cost efficiency due to the need for higher wattage intense lighting to penetrate all the way to the plants central stem anywhere but at the plants top.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 8, 2010)

ive implemented a solenoid at the end of my main line to my misters. It opens between sprays, and relieves pressure, preventing sprayers from dripping.

Ive gone one step farther and implimented a thrid solenoid that is in oposition with the other ones. So most of the time my pump just spits back to the main res. Then, when the one closes, it forces it to the sprayers. WHen that first one closes, so does the one on the end of the sprayer line, so the sprayer line becomes a dead end. Then, when these 2 open back up, i have a third that is on the feed line to the sprayers. It simply shuts when the other 2 open. Now i get no dripping at all between sprays. All solenoids are normally closed. 2 are on a relay, and the other is just plugged in. All 3 plug into a cap art timer. My spray times are around 5 seconds. Im looking for a way to shorten spray times. Im running 30psi according to my pressure guage plugged into my main mister line. I have 150 1gph 30-80 psi misters plugged into the system. THey spray down from lids of containers. Im running the big 70 series iwaki pump, rated at 40psi.

It is a quiet pump when its under pressure, when its not under pressure it gets loud. Im debating putting a simple pvc valve on the return to res pipe that way i can close the orfice a bit and create some back pressure, maybe that will help make it quiet all the time.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 8, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> ive implemented a solenoid at the end of my main line to my misters. It opens between sprays, and relieves pressure, preventing sprayers from dripping.
> 
> Ive gone one step farther and implimented a thrid solenoid that is in oposition with the other ones. So most of the time my pump just spits back to the main res. Then, when the one closes, it forces it to the sprayers. WHen that first one closes, so does the one on the end of the sprayer line, so the sprayer line becomes a dead end. Then, when these 2 open back up, i have a third that is on the feed line to the sprayers. It simply shuts when the other 2 open. Now i get no dripping at all between sprays. All solenoids are normally closed. 2 are on a relay, and the other is just plugged in. All 3 plug into a cap art timer. My spray times are around 5 seconds. Im looking for a way to shorten spray times. Im running 30psi according to my pressure guage plugged into my main mister line. I have 150 1gph 30-80 psi misters plugged into the system. THey spray down from lids of containers. Im running the big 70 series iwaki pump, rated at 40psi.
> 
> It is a quiet pump when its under pressure, when its not under pressure it gets loud. Im debating putting a simple pvc valve on the return to res pipe that way i can close the orfice a bit and create some back pressure, maybe that will help make it quiet all the time.


A ball or gate valve would decrease volume thereby increasing velocity and work required by the pump thereby quieting it down. It wold laso mean that the pressure to your misters would build up faster and improve the spray pattern at the beginning of your spray cycle. You should be able to easily shorten your spray time if your timer allows for shorter increments.

150 misters makes for a sizable system. What is that old saying, "Go big or stay at home!"


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 8, 2010)

I am sorry i swore at you guys earlier i just got angry, I insist i never stole anything from you guys nor was it ever my intent. My pages are still up if you care to find your way to them, and will see that for yourself.

I was wrong to post the link and won't do it again, honest mistake? 

I simply wanted to exchange information that may be useful to every one.

I hope in the future when i get my system up and running, which i will, i will have more to share.

sorry tree farmer for wasting more space in your thread.

I just wanted to apologize.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 8, 2010)

Some people are touchy, sounds like you're on the right track, how about we all chill out so this thread doesn't get closed again?
Most people seem to have good intentions.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 8, 2010)

Hey I have watched my language for weeks now. I thought it strange they closed the thread when I was off net rather than on. Thank god that whacked out mental case sherriberry is gone. As far as open net full sharing, I doubt that will ever happen. Disclosing too much of a new and better way to grow that is also considered cutting edge government backed research is kinda like being the first wave of cocaine base smokers who started teaching everyone how to cook base cocaine rock/base. 

When those dealers were found out they were quickly locked up for long stretches. Some things the government just doesn't want widely known. Have you noticed all the many meth labs are not on line anymore. Police and the congress will only tolerate so much. They really could care less about most of the systems used as they are typically cheap-ed down sad systems that do not even work as swell as those used by commercial green house vegetable growers. 

Some not to brilliant mj growers like to think they can modify systems such as 12' wide NTF trough growing systems using chlorine injection systems and pumps with venturi valves that were designed by university researchers for lettuce by grossly under building them by using 3 or 4 inch wide gutters or fence posts and call still call then NTF. Thats sad. Lettuce is very quick growing and has very small roots masses equivalent to a mj clone at about three weeks old. 

Nutrient thin film is based upon the fact that DO will only diffuse through a layer of roots stacked up about 10 mm thick (0.40 inches). So the NTF system is suppose to be used with a layer of roots preferably 4/10 ths of an inch/thick tall at most with 1/4 inch considered ideal. Most small gutter and fence posts have layers of roots 2 to 4 inches thick. Most small tube aeros by the time budding startss have tubes filled full of roots. iIt is comical that a great many people in the mj growing forums think NTF or small tube aeros are the best . mj growing systems. 

I am sure the police checking out the forums daily through out the country get a big laugh out of those mj growing systems. Then there is the very heavily circulated DWC that is a very, very high energy user. Some say it is the best as it produces quite a sizable proportion of root hairs. It is even efficient enough that the plant inter nodes are closer together than most all the other systems....except the medium and high pressure and the air atomized aeros in large tubes and deep chambers. 

Te high energy DWC is at best close to the medium pressure large tube or deep camber aero with 50 micron sprayers. But the top of the line DWC systems uses about three times the pump wattage and twice the lighting wattage as the medium pressure SOG growers who use large tubes and closely hung lights and a pump with divertor valves. The kind of power usage used by that DWC system for commercial size grows is obvious when brought on line so the police don't care about those systems as they are easy to spot when they so choose to look. High pressure aero and air atomized aero are currently the top end experimental government research system being designed to use on space ships and space stations. 

They are the ost efficient systems presently in development. They have lower power usage, water, and nutrient requirements than any other system in existence. They can grow the most in the fastest time in the least amount of space with the least amount of wasted nutrients or water. The are least known about systems among mj growers. They have the smallest heat signature of all commercially feasible growing systems because they can utilize the smallest lights due to the plants short inter node spaces. 

I am quite sure the police who have the job to wade through the growing forums daily will surely not attempt to find out the identity and location to people who post glossy photos of these grows and explain all the ins and outs in a simple easy to read and under stand thread complete with directions fully explained in layman's terms. Yeah like I want to open or post to that thread. I like this thread where nearly no photos are posted and where most people who access it and try to rad it have their eyes roil back into their heads. No one posting cutting edge grow systems should really openly post photos of those systems stems in operation or even many photos related to the systems. Let the people at other sites go on the watch lists and have their true IP addresses supplied to local police. Proxy sites are not secure to good hackers.

They Fedscan spend the money to have the information provided through hacking into growing sites and proxy sites or just buying off growing site administrators or simply telling them if you want to stay on line feed me. They operate forum sites to sell seeds. They do what it takes to keep selling seeds.

What??


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 9, 2010)

Yes you have, just saying. 

Crap I hope just mentioning the wrong name doesn't draw someone out like saying beetlejuice three times.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 9, 2010)

Thanks to the help of fatman i think im getting a decent c02 setup going.

My grow is up in my attic. My hot water heater is in my basement. Im putting a fish tank air pump in an air tight container. Ill have a small hole for the air line to go through, and tape it all off, so its air tight. Put the air pump in there, and run the fish tank air line up to the attic. Meanwhile, there is a larger diameter hose, about half inch, that taps into the chimney exhaust pipe of my hot water tank. The pilot light creates non stop c02. The only air that can get into the tupperware box that the pump is in, is sucked in from the exhaust chimeny of the hot water tank.

Im going to put a carbon monoxide alarm in my grow room, which is air tight btw.
And perhaps a c02 alarm? not sure.. but eventually, im going to try and find a good deal on co2 ppm digital meters, and just put one in the room. If c02 gets too high, you simply put the pump on a timer, and have it shut off for a while. I dont think it will get too high tho if a person is running enough plants to inhale it all.


----------



## clydefrog (Apr 9, 2010)

im down to buying my booster pump fellas...aquatec or shurflow? i know there was some back and forth about them being similar...any new experience since then? any new opinions?


----------



## jayww (Apr 10, 2010)

anyway to get plans with part list to make one of these??


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 10, 2010)

OoooooooH!


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 11, 2010)

Forget plans and parts, just watch for the Ronco TV commercial, you can buy one for just three easy payments of 19.95 but you have to act right now when you see the commercial because you know they can't offer them all day at that price.


----------



## Paglia (Apr 12, 2010)

Hi guys, i have problem whit my PH.

I have prepared my solution in this order:


10 litres of tap water at ph 8.0
2 ml of Bio Roots from GHE
correct ph at 6.0 with PH Down from GHE

1 day after he up to 7.5 and day after same.
Today stopped at 7.0

My question...is this normal?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 12, 2010)

Paglia said:


> Hi guys, i have problem whit my PH.
> 
> I have prepared my solution in this order:
> 
> ...


General Organics Bio Root is an organic rooting supplement not a complete nutrient formulation.

Ingredients: Alfalfa meal, brewers yeast, potassium sulphate, rock phosphate, sea kelp and soybean meal. I would not recommend its use for anthing but cloning or soil grows.

Please tell you didn't really add these things to your chemical nutrient solution. If so quit using them and your pH problem will go away. You should have your pH in the range of 5.6 to 5.8 or posssibly 5.5 to 5.8. Not above that for hydro.


----------



## Paglia (Apr 12, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> General Organics Bio Root is an organic rooting supplement not a complete nutrient formulation.
> 
> Ingredients: Alfalfa meal, brewers yeast, potassium sulphate, rock phosphate, sea kelp and soybean meal. I would not recommend its use for anthing but cloning or soil grows.
> 
> Please tell you didn't really add these things to your chemical nutrient solution. If so quit using them and your pH problem will go away. You should have your pH in the range of 5.6 to 5.8 or posssibly 5.5 to 5.8. Not above that for hydro.


I have saw this in the GHE program for hydro and aero, with the Bio Bloom.

If i correct ph little and often can cause problem?

You think i can go without it or corrupts the performance?

Thanks for the explanation


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 12, 2010)

It seldom works well when you add organics to a chemical nutrient system as it introduces and and creates a need for bacterial and enzyme processes that a chemical nutrient system does not need that a hydro grower tries to prevent from developing. This wreaks havoic with the little buffering capacity of the chemical nutrienr formulation and causes unnecessary carbonate formations and other issue that cause pH problems and. A nutrient resrvoir with organics in it is worse than trying to manage a wsate water treatment plant. Waste water treatment palnts actually contain less nutrients to digest that must be digested proportionally by bacteria in a reservoir with organics. They like human waste excrement are organic nutrients that are only partially digested.

If you are using a balanced chemical fertilizer you most definitely need to add the supplement to it. Their advertisng is very deceptive as it contains no humus as a result of the products they llist as ingrediants. The only humus products GH or AN uses in any of the their products is humic" chelates. However it is a bit of a stretch calling something extracted from coal using potassium hydroxide as being any more natural than the typical chelates already in common use. It is all a marketing hype game to milk mj growers as long as they can before the U.S. relaxes mj laws. IE another scam product to make more prifits and to give an impression of being cutting edge.


----------



## patlpp (Apr 12, 2010)

Hello Fatman: I heeded your warning about AN Sensi having urea in it and not able to process in inert media. Here is what I did and am getting blockbuster results: I took Coco as the medium and applied Sensi Grow @ EC 1.6 + a supplemental dose of 2 tsp/gal Botanicare Original Pure Blend Grow formula (organic Compost Solution which has guano, fish ass, kelp) I also hydrated the coco in this solution.

Am I experiencing only the effect of the Sensi formula and the Botanicare sup is a waste? Or am I on track with this chemical/organic combination in my attempt to process and benefit from the urea? Do the enzyme formulations like hygrozyme provide some urease as an alternative to organics to process urea? 
One last question if I may. What is the difference between the cal-mag sulfate type and the cal-mag carbonate type? Are they interchangeable? Can I use the carbonate type as part of this regimen? I got a free quart of cal-mag carbonate. Your time is much appreciated.

EDIT: Drain to waste


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 13, 2010)

patlpp said:


> Hello Fatman: I heeded your warning about AN Sensi having urea in it and not able to process in inert media. Here is what I did and am getting blockbuster results: I took Coco as the medium and applied Sensi Grow @ EC 1.6 + a supplemental dose of 2 tsp/gal Botanicare Original Pure Blend Grow formula (organic Compost Solution which has guano, fish ass, kelp) I also hydrated the coco in this solution.
> 
> Am I experiencing only the effect of the Sensi formula and the Botanicare sup is a waste? No the organics will be uptaken by the plants. The organic nitrogen will either be taken up as ammonium if the temps are low or the plants recived low intensity side lighting or a extremely bushy. Other wise the ammonium nitrogen will have to be converted to nitrite then nitrate by bacterial action within the reservoir before it can be used by the plants. The other organic fertilizers will be taken up just like chemical fertilizers as the organics puetryfy and releses the minerals.
> 
> ...


If you are growing drain to waste then most of this does not apply as your chemical nutrients solution will always be the same. Only the additin of organics will screw this up. I would not use any organics or hydrozyme to convert the urea that is in the Sensi formula if using drain to waste. The urea will then essentially just all end up draining to waste without be converted to ammonium, nitrite/nitrate. Buffering is not an issue with drain to waste as their is no need to try to maintain any specific pH in a resrvoir if all the excess nutrient is just draining to waste rather than flowing into a reservoir where it causes pH and therefore buffering issues. Without oragnics being added your reservoir feeding the drain to waste systen will not have pH flcuations but will remain stable. It will not remain stable o if it also contains organics. It takes weeks for urea to be converted to nitrate even with all the enzymes and bacteria being present but other nutrients, bacteria and enzymes in orgainic fertilizersm supplments and hygrozyme cospost type supplements will star effecting (changing) your ph almost instantly and will cause pH changes for 4 to 5 weeks usually. With out the enzymes and bacteria being present the urea simply remains urea which the roots do not take up.


----------



## Paglia (Apr 13, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> It seldom works well when you add organics to a chemical nutrient system as it introduces and and creates a need for bacterial and enzyme processes that a chemical nutrient system does not need that a hydro grower tries to prevent from developing. This wreaks havoic with the little buffering capacity of the chemical nutrienr formulation and causes unnecessary carbonate formations and other issue that cause pH problems and. A nutrient resrvoir with organics in it is worse than trying to manage a wsate water treatment plant. Waste water treatment palnts actually contain less nutrients to digest that must be digested proportionally by bacteria in a reservoir with organics. They like human waste excrement are organic nutrients that are only partially digested.
> 
> If you are using a balanced chemical fertilizer you most definitely need to add the supplement to it. Their advertisng is very deceptive as it contains no humus as a result of the products they llist as ingrediants. The only humus products GH or AN uses in any of the their products is humic" chelates. However it is a bit of a stretch calling something extracted from coal using potassium hydroxide as being any more natural than the typical chelates already in common use. It is all a marketing hype game to milk mj growers as long as they can before the U.S. relaxes mj laws. IE another scam product to make more prifits and to give an impression of being cutting edge.


Thanks fatman, very interesting lesson.

Ok i can go without bio roots and bio bloom, but i have another one, Diamond nectar.

I can use this with Floranova? this contains Humus, i can try to make a solution with fert and diamond and check ph, i hope it remains stable.

EDIT: my system is drain to waste.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 13, 2010)

I am a bit confused. Why do you think you need to add or will benefit by adding Diamond Nectar. Diamond Nectar is just mainly raw cane sugar, molasses (raw sugar), malt syrup (raw sugar from corn and sprouted barley) (IE normally used to make grain alcohol) and then GH then throws in the same humic and fulvic acids as the FloraNova contain. Basically this supercharges bacterial multiplication and does little else. It is a myth that raw sugar feeds mj as a carbohydrate. NO research has ever shown feeding raw sugar to a growing plant is effective at increasing yield or increasing the nutrient uptake of the plants. mj just does't experience a problem with a deficiency or carbohydartes so increasing them is not beneficial. 

The FloraNova nutrient formulation already contains chelated iron. That supplies enough chelate for all the salts requiring or benefitting from a chelate. The humic and fulvic acid is not only not needed but is a problem causer in a chemical nutrient reservoir as it is an organic. Adding more by adding Damond Nectar is simply increasing unneeded "contamination" of the chemical nutrient solution. Using humic and fulvic acids with a soil grow where there might be no chelates naturally present couldbe beneficial if chelated iron is not also used. Humic and fulvic acids are not needed or beneficial enough in chemical nutrint solutions to off set the pH and clogging problems they cause. Below is a link showing that the FloraNova products already contain iron chelate. If GH was not just being unethical in adding humic and fulvic acids to a standard chemical fertilizer so as to sell a "new improved" formulation they would not both tout the humic acids as a natural chelate and still provide the man made chelate that it is suppose to replace. AN has done the same thing.

The humic acid and fulvic acids do not have the same qualities of humus. They are merely using pottasium hydroxide to extract humic acid and fulvic acid from soft coal. It is just another sellers scam. Researchers and the commercial agricultural community has already repeatedly proven that while humus is beneficial in soil growing, humic acids and fulvic acids used at manfacturers recommended application rates and at twice that amount provided no crop yield increases or product quality improvements.

http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuygrbMRLRjwBRtFXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyMTZtMXRkBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMgRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkA0RGUjVfODQ-/SIG=136eo6de9/EXP=1271250347/**http%3a//www.generalhydroponics.com/genhydro_US/product_labels/floranova_grow_qt.pdf


----------



## Paglia (Apr 13, 2010)

I have saw here:

http://www.eurohydro.com/pdf/tabs/gb/floranova.pdf

Thanks for the .pdf but i have floranova grow and bloom no one-part.

I was fooled by the scheme because i am no expert fertilizer and have buy all.

I can go with Floranova Grow and Bloom only? What do you think about?


----------



## YouGrowBoy (Apr 13, 2010)

Paglia said:


> I have saw here:
> 
> http://www.eurohydro.com/pdf/tabs/gb/floranova.pdf
> 
> ...


Paglia, what kind of HP aero system are you using? Is it home made or store bought?


----------



## auto22 (Apr 13, 2010)

this is a long ass thread. interesting but did anyone ever build something similar besides the original guy. be nice if someone could confirm his work with some info and pics.


----------



## Paglia (Apr 13, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> Paglia, what kind of HP aero system are you using? Is it home made or store bought?



Hi, this is my home made TAG attempt.

I have explained my project with some pictures in my post here:

https://www.rollitup.org/3965036-post861.html


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 13, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> Paglia, what kind of HP aero system are you using? Is it home made or store bought?


I would still use the FloraNova products you have already purchased and just keep a good eye on the pH. I would not recommend you buy anymore for use on indoor hydro though. Stick to the simple chemical two and three part formulas like GH Flora series until you are prepared to start mixing your own nutrients or adjusting cheap commercial fertilizers to fit your specific needs. I would not add the nectar but save it to use at a low concentration as a cloning and seedling solution. 

When it comes to supplements realise that commercial hydroponic green house growers are much more informed of the availability of supplements than most growers. They can also purchase in bulk at very low prices in comparison to what mj retailers of nutrients charge. Like a few pennies on the dollar. If they say it is not a worth while product then it just is not a worth while product even for the mj grower whos product is worth more. Remember they pay pennies for what we pay dollars. If they could get 10% or 20% better yields like the mj marketers claim is possible they would be using the products. For an example: Bulk raw sugars are very cheap. If the were beneficial the commercial hydroponic green house growers would buy and use it by the truck loads. They do not use it at all. The fact that they are not simply shows mj nutrient retailers and manufacturers are not just deceptive but often flat out liars.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 13, 2010)

auto22 said:


> this is a long ass thread. interesting but did anyone ever build something similar besides the original guy. be nice if someone could confirm his work with some info and pics.


*Obviously you did not read much of it or you would not be asking the question about other whether other growers have also also such systems or asking for confirmations about the thread starters system and whether it works.*

*I have pics of my grand children I could post,* but I do not post incriminating pictures of mj or pictures of cutting edge equipment that the government does not even wish to post on line. That would be like asking to be watched and harassed. 

All the information you need is posted and there are photos here and else where online of everything but photos of the systems growing mj. You have to look at the silly tag photos at IC for photos such as that. Less mature growers tend to foolishly post more photos. More mature growers prefer freedom over feeding the ego through posting incriminating photos.

If you need photos to believe what you read, then simply read from else where.


----------



## YouGrowBoy (Apr 13, 2010)

Paglia said:


> Hi Atomizer,
> 
> I using a flexible pipe for gas, can take 20 bar of gas pressure, the line is 3 meter long whit 4 nozzles.
> 
> ...


Yes now I remember. I have no experience using misters this small, aside from the issue of mixing organics and chemicals, won't using organics of almost any kind increase the rate of clogging or is the pressure great enough to blow it out?

YGB


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 13, 2010)

YouGrowBoy said:


> Yes now I remember. I have no experience using misters this small, aside from the issue of mixing organics and chemicals, won't using organics of almost any kind increase the rate of clogging or is the pressure great enough to blow it out?
> 
> YGB


 Organic preparations typically contain lots matter that is partially digested and partially putrefied. The rock powders and many other things they contain ae notwater soluble but must be slowlybroken down by acids and enzymes. Lots of chunks and such are quite common. Many manafctures do not strain to any degree smaller that 350 to 400 micron. Even the mostethical ones only filterdown to 200 microns. Medium pressure, high pressure and air atomizer solutions should be filtered with at least a 20 micron filter is there is any chances of non dissolved matter in the solution. 5 micron is even better.


----------



## hydroboy27 (Apr 14, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Forget plans and parts, just watch for the Ronco TV commercial, you can buy one for just three easy payments of 19.95 but you have to act right now when you see the commercial because you know they can't offer them all day at that price.


was this a joke? or is there really something out there thats a steal?


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 14, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> was this a joke? or is there really something out there thats a steal?


----------



## auto22 (Apr 14, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> *Obviously you did not read much of it or you would not be asking the question about other whether other growers have also also such systems or asking for confirmations about the thread starters system and whether it works.*
> 
> *I have pics of my grand children I could post,* but I do not post incriminating pictures of mj or pictures of cutting edge equipment that the government does not even wish to post on line. That would be like asking to be watched and harassed.
> 
> ...


if you think asking for a pic of a system without anything in it is immature or that the government might come after you if you did because its cutting edge science then your either need to put down the pipe or seek some professional help. i guess the government must be watching the companies that sell these systems like Atomix and biocontrols. yea ive read the thread but your argument doesnt hold water. im new to this site but i see whereever you are there is controversity so no sense in trying to make a point with you. continue your consiracy theories to avoid the truth.
I suppose the government is watching the 2 people who did post pics of thier systems. have a nice life living in your dream world.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 14, 2010)

auto22 said:


> if you think asking for a pic of a system without anything in it is immature or that the government might come after you if you did because its cutting edge science then your either need to put down the pipe or seek some professional help. i guess the government must be watching the companies that sell these systems like Atomix and biocontrols. yea ive read the thread but your argument doesnt hold water. im new to this site but i see whereever you are there is controversity so no sense in trying to make a point with you. continue your consiracy theories to avoid the truth.
> I suppose the government is watching the 2 people who did post pics of thier systems. have a nice life living in your dream world.


You both have a point, but anything you say or post can and will be used against you in any future legal troubles, and certain people may or may not have already had absolutely enough of it with legal troubles to take even the slightest of stupid chances.

We can all build copies of these and run them from what the guys have posted, it just takes drive enough to do the research and these guys that have done the hard work don't feel obligated to spoon feed those unwilling to help themselves.

Understandable.

Besides, you couldn't just build it and run it from the most basic plans without going through these threads fully anyway to actually learn what the fuck you're doing.

Thank them for even posting at all.


----------



## Dude Man (Apr 17, 2010)

okay, anyway enough talk about your big brother!

I was wondering if any of you tried adding LP-misters/sprinklers to the bottom of root chamber?

I read of talk of it but nothing else?

Fatman I understand what you were saying about the short inter-node growth and such caused by the "more efficient nutrient uptake"

Question?

In plants is all the root meant to function the same?
I mean the upper roots in nature gather more oxygen, with lower rooter less?

Would the tap roots be more efficient in a different environment???

I like the screen idea?

would a 3 tier root chamber work better?

you could use larger screen or mare of a 1/8 x 1/8 square mesh,
with a smaller or finer screen below with hopes of causing the roots to grow tap roots?


I am no science major of plant guy so i am just basing this on assumptions?


Read the thread their is a lot of good ideas!


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 18, 2010)

Maybe the answers are in the tag information thread?


----------



## Paglia (Apr 18, 2010)

What timer you using?

I have found this, looks good value for money, 89

http://www.g-systems.eu/en/water_timer.html


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 19, 2010)

Hi Paglia
That timer look good as it provides independant day and night cycle timing, the price isn`t too bad. Its a shame it doesn`t go lower than one second but other than that its ideal  
The timers i have are homebrewed with a range of 0.27sec - 1.8 sec for the mist pulse and 30sec-7mins for the pause.


----------



## MeJuana (Apr 19, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Besides, you couldn't just build it and run it from the most basic plans without going through these threads fully anyway to actually learn what the fuck you're doing.
> 
> Thank them for even posting at all.


Thanks to anyone willing to risk their ass to post info.. I truly do appreciate it, what you have posted IS enough and I can build my system but you have posted. So much info out there by you guys, just thanks.. Anything else you post is the cherries


----------



## Paglia (Apr 21, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Hi Paglia
> That timer look good as it provides independant day and night cycle timing, the price isn`t too bad. Its a shame it doesn`t go lower than one second but other than that its ideal
> The timers i have are homebrewed with a range of 0.27sec - 1.8 sec for the mist pulse and 30sec-7mins for the pause.


Me same but is hard to fine tuning, you have the same times also in the dark period?


----------



## zero1776 (Apr 25, 2010)

I had a question about a a company that uses a rotary atomizer has anyone used one of these. I need to start building a chamber and am trying to do it the cheapest way with the best results.They say it will fog a 15x15 ft chamber. I was thinking about deep individual runners with separate air assisted atomizers this would be expensive and high maintenance. So I am rethinking the build. With this sprayer I could build a 4ftwidex8ft longx2ft deep with 1 sprayer in the middle to feed them all.No pressurized tanks or air compressors just a pump and the electric motor that spins the atomizer. It would be drain to waste.Here is the web site looking for feed back on what you think especially fatmans input _www.ledebuhr.net 
they say the micron spectrum can be customized. I can get a 40-50 micron atomizer made is this the best range for nutrient delivery? Any advice will be greatly appreciated thanx. 
http://www.ledebuhr.net/_


----------



## Northernlights#5xHaze (Apr 25, 2010)

if you want more control than that .........oh forget it you guys are taliking about 40-50 micron size that might as well be hydro. The atomizer that i use is 6-11 micron.


----------



## zero1776 (Apr 25, 2010)

Im trying to see what micron size I should be trying for. If I know which is most effective from what people have tried I can shoot for that.With 6-11 micron what atomizers are you using. Do you have any clogging issues with them. just trying to learn a little. thanx


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 25, 2010)

6-11 micron is too small, aim for the majority of droplets at 50microns. The discs don`t clog like nozzles but you still have to clean them occasionally. They would be ok for very large, room sized root chambers. 
Have a listen to the noise they generate at 10,000-20,000rpm before buying one..they`re not exactly stealthy


----------



## Northernlights#5xHaze (Apr 25, 2010)

I have more fine root hairs than you can get so my micron size is not to small. Also a water droplet out of a sprinkler head is 50 like the easy cloner its a mist but still to much. And nothing gets clogged at 6-11 micron if you know what your doing


----------



## Northernlights#5xHaze (Apr 25, 2010)

zero hey buddy go to bete fog its the same ones that atomix used to carry before they went out of business cause they were charging to much. But hey if your trying to go cheap this is not for you because it is expensive.. You also need to be careful choosing a nutrient you want something very clean with little salt build up.. Also a hint when you get your micron size down that low you only need about 200ppm


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 25, 2010)

Oh no are we going to have a disagreement or a fight?

How would 6-11 micron be ok if 5 micron from a simple cheap fogger isn't ok still?
Or is it? I thought there was a problem with nutrient delivery with foggers still.

Fatman are you just not saying anything to avoid blowing up?


----------



## Essex (Apr 25, 2010)

Wow a live TAG thread, finaly found one!!!!!! Hi all,

Im trying to build a TAG with a jetwasher and large header tank at about 1500psi, still planing/acquiring any advise?

Any clue where someone can buy 5-50 micron, non-drip, 1500psi spray heads as its starting to give me headaches? (I'll get back to lookin at the 100 pages!!!!)


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 25, 2010)

Lets see. NASA spent many millions of dollars on research into air atomized and high pressure aeroponics. The reserchers determined clearly that water droplet sizing of 50 microns is most efficient.

Atomix sold an air atomized system that could be adjusted by changing the nozzle tip to allow the majority of water droplets in the 30 to 80 micron size (805%) with no droplets smaller than 5 micron. Atomix *never* sold a atomix chamber system nozzle that was set up to deliver the majority of its water droplets in the 6 to 11 micron size as claimed by Northerlights#5Haze. Atomix sold out to an American Company. They did not go out of business due to high prices etc. The U.S. Patent Application Publication clearly states the droplet micron size for the atomix atomizer as being designed to produce droplets between 30 and 80 microns.

The reason that foggers do not work well is aslso spelled out in the atomix patent and in NASA reports. Here is a few lines from the 2009 recent U.S. patent application publication for the aeromix type system.

"Aeroponic systems suffer from the disadvantage of producing the right size of droplets and in the right air to water ratio that is required to maintain a constant state of effective aeroponic growth while also meeting the liquid requirements of horticulture. Aeroponic systems that produce water droplets below 30 microns fail to achieve continuous aeroponic growth due to the need to supply droplets in such a high concentration that liquid saturation occurs whilst meeting the liquid requirement of horticulture. Very small droplets, such as 5-20 microns, need to be supplied in extremely high densities otherwise they cannot provide enough water to grow a plant. However, such a high concentration of very small virtually prevents air from getting to the roots and thus they may die unless the system is turned off periodically in order to allow the roots to dry and gain access to air. Thus, aeroponic systems with droplets below 30 micron tend to be operated with a clear on and off period due to this saturation. Aeroponic systems that produce droplets above 100 microns are also capable of continuous aeroponic growth due to a rapid saturation that is caused by droplets of this size."

"Ultrasonic systems are capable of producing very fine liquid particles of a sized smaller than 30 micron but they are also ineffective at continuous aeroponic growth. The ultra sonic components are both expensive and unreliable due to their short life spans."

The patent application repeatedly states the atomizers were designed for water droplets sizes between 30 and 80 microns. 

*Atomix did not sell atomizers for their atomix chamber systems that were set up to operate in a range below 30 to 80 microns. Yes a very small percentage of the water droplets were below 30 micron and/or over 80 micron. This was mainly due to their systems nozzles being siphon fed rather than pump or gravity fed.*

Simply said 6-11 micron is not OK unless you are cycling the fog on and off. I have not heard of a ultrasonic or centrifugal force type atomizer/fogger being used in a cyclic manner. Even if you were using the fogger systems they just don't work as well as a system providing the 50 micro droplets. With a 50 (30 to 80) droplet size system you can actually run continously if using small enough nozzles. That is not possible with smaller or larger droplets sizes. With the 50 micron droplets the roots are exposed to air plus they recieve water and that can happen over a broad application range. Yes you can over saturate with 50 micron droplets by over sizing the nozzles are using to many nozzles. There are simple calculations to prevent that though. With small or large droplets you o\ver satuare then supply nothing, then you over saturate again then supply nothing. That is TAG. Or you simply constantly over saturate by fogging constantly.

*This is NOT a TAG thread.*


----------



## Essex (Apr 25, 2010)

wow fatman, someone with a brain!

"This is NOT a TAG thread." could ya point me to one? I cant find anyone to talk TAG to and all my friends are organic.

Fatman, so is the idea to constantly saturate the root zone with 50 microns? I was going to aim for a 2-4 second spray, I thought that was how NASA done it?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 25, 2010)

There is a tag thread on the IC forum.

With NASA a certain amount of water vapor is kept in the chamber at all times. The misting is done with air atomizers. This can be done with cyclic misting or continuous misting depending on the chamber sizes and air pressure used. It would be nearly impossible to spray the small amounts allowed with present nozzles available with small chambers as they at the smallest available sizes would cause over saturation. Then you are basically running a tag grow. There are maximum and minimum levels of water applied for aero chambers that are stated in the patent applications. The information used in the patent application came directly from NASA funded research. If using large droplets or small droplets the plants are not growing as efficiently as with ith the droplets sizes within the 30 to 80 micron droplet size. With either large or small sizes the systems require that the misting/fogging be cyclic. With the 30 to 50 micro size the misters can run constantly as long as their flow rate is small enough to not cause over saturation. IE large chambers and very small nozzles with high pressure if sprayed. Nozzles producing water droplets in the 30 to 80 micron sizes are capable of providing the most ideal conditions whether they are used continuous at very low flow rates or cyclic at higher flow rates.

In the water treatment field we have found that one of the most aggravating forms of iron is organic *(chelated) iron*. The irin in hydroponic formualtions is chelated iron. Iron in this form does not respond to the more simple iron treatment methods, for it is bound into organic materials which both tie up the iron in a non-ionic form, and are unusually resistant to oxidation. Thus, neither softeners nor iron filters will effectively remove this iron. 

Strong oxidizing agents (H2O2 or potassium permangenate) and very long contact times are frequently the only answer to the presence of organic iron. High chlorine concentrations have been effective in some cases, but most water treatment authorities will often point out that it has been their experience that in most waters potassium permanganate or H2O2 will far surpass chlorine in oxidizing organic iron. Even if iron is removes as a particulate it will be obvious as it will coat your reservoir with a rust covered film. If this happens simply add some chelated iron (0.1 to 0.4 grams per gallon of mixed nutrient water). It is sold at large lawn and garden centers and on eBay.


----------



## Northernlights#5xHaze (Apr 25, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Lets see. NASA spent many millions of dollars on research into air atomized and high pressure aeroponics. The reserchers determined clearly that water droplet sizing of 50 microns is most efficient.
> 
> Atomix sold an air atomized system that could be adjusted by changing the nozzle tip to allow the majority of water droplets in the 30 to 80 micron size (805%) with no droplets smaller than 5 micron. Atomix *never* sold a atomix chamber system nozzle that was set up to deliver the majority of its water droplets in the 6 to 11 micron size as claimed by Northerlights#5Haze. Atomix sold out to an American Company. They did not go out of business due to high prices etc. The U.S. Patent Application Publication clearly states the droplet micron size for the atomix atomizer as being designed to produce droplets between 30 and 80 microns.
> 
> ...


Well I guess we will have to see how it goes because so for its running very well. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. And the funny thing is that my buddy has a atomix system and it is not a cone spray it is a flat fan but hey what do I know they could have just sent him the wrong one . Before you go making assumptions you should ask if i cycle on and off. Oh and by the way my timer goes into the thousands of a second. The system I have noone has.


----------



## zero1776 (Apr 25, 2010)

So did any one look at the link _www.ledebuhr.net
Would like some opinions on placing this in the center of a4x8x2 chamber micron size seems to be good in the 40-50 micron range for the majority of the spray.What do you think? I dont mean I am cheap I would pay the $1500.00 for the sprayer plus the few hundred to build the chamber.It is about money and maintenance the design is simple less to break no nozzles to clog.I want to be cost affective and reliable with the least amount of components as possible.Fatman you seem to know the most here what do you think?
_


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 26, 2010)

Northernlights#5xHaze said:


> Well I guess we will have to see how it goes because so for its running very well. I guess the proof will be in the pudding. And the funny thing is that my buddy has a atomix system and it is not a cone spray it is a flat fan but hey what do I know they could have just sent him the wrong one . Before you go making assumptions you should ask if i cycle on and off. Oh and by the way my timer goes into the thousands of a second. The system I have noone has.


Dude I said nothing about cone shapes. Yes atomix did sell a slit nozzle. It is also clearly shown in their patent application. Your point is what? Nozzles are available with slot tips. Personally I have not found them to perform as well as a round cone nozzle. but it is typically the slot tips offered with the cheesy tip cleaner. I am sure the ready availability of a cleaning slot tip had a slot to do with atomix choosing the slot tip. In reality atomix's nozzles were not all that good. The needle cleaning device did not perform well. Actually the use of a nozzle set up in the siphon mode as used by atomixand by the manafcturer naking the cheesy sad knockoff is quite sorry anyway. A gravity feed set up works much better. 

I really do not care if you cycle on or off and id not imply that you did or did not. I merely related what research has shown. What you do or do not gain from that is up to you. How you personally run your grow is really none of my concern. If you care to share your experiences that would nice. If not, that is your choice.

My timers also go to 0.001 seconds. I use Omron industrial timer. The short cyclic interval posible are definitely not needed for an aero system and really not a bragging point, but they are sold that way. I buy them because of their dependability and versatilty (other features) rather than their ability for a 0.001 minimum or 999.9 hour maximum cycle option. I have never had the need to use a cyclic time shorter than 1 second. Some people do drop spray times down to 0.5 seconds at night. I believe if you check you will find that while you can cycle down to an on cycle of 0.001 seconds, when doing so your off cycle likely maxs at 9.999 seconds. A 0.01 on allows up to a max 99.9 second off cycle., and a 0.1 on allows for a max 999.9 second off cycle. This would continue up to a 0.1 hr on and a max 999.9 hours off.

I can also say the systems I have no one else has, but that matters little. I am sure there are many unique systems in use by many people. It is not like retailers are selling any good systems so people who wish really good systems build their own. Some might even work well. I am quite sure there are systems that work better and worse than both your system and my systems. I am always interested in improving my systems. Be sure to share when you have something to contribute.


----------



## Essex (Apr 26, 2010)

lol, who cares its a timer.... mine is cobbled together from a velleman timer kit, 15min segmet clock and a variable voltage DC transformer powering a 12v windscreen wiper motor with a micro-switch single revolition cutout attached to a 2000psi stainless steel ball valve. (couldent find a 1500psi+ solenoid valve anyware!)
Cost about £15 and gives me independent night/day and infinitely ajustable on/off minimum about .5sec on time.

At the moment im building a +/-1oC automatic temperature controler to power a 60w peltier plate for my 76lbs NOS canister that im using as a nutrent header tank.

Only problem is I have NO IDEA about how much nute-water a plant uses!!!!

Also dont have a clue about chelated iron and how this afects me??? I was planing on using H2O2 anyway as cant clean inside a gas tank!

Ah back to breathin NOS, love empting this tank into my lungs!!!


----------



## Northernlights#5xHaze (Apr 26, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Dude I said nothing about cone shapes. Yes atomix did sell a slit nozzle. It is also clearly shown in their patent application. Your point is what? Nozzles are available with slot tips. Personally I have not found them to perform as well as a round cone nozzle. but it is typically the slot tips offered with the cheesy tip cleaner. I am sure the ready availability of a cleaning slot tip had a slot to do with atomix choosing the slot tip. In reality atomix's nozzles were not all that good. The needle cleaning device did not perform well. Actually the use of a nozzle set up in the siphon mode as used by atomixand by the manafcturer naking the cheesy sad knockoff is quite sorry anyway. A gravity feed set up works much better.
> 
> I really do not care if you cycle on or off and id not imply that you did or did not. I merely related what research has shown. What you do or do not gain from that is up to you. How you personally run your grow is really none of my concern. If you care to share your experiences that would nice. If not, that is your choice.
> 
> ...


ya iI looked at omrom timers just not as much control as a plc also they are only good for about a million cycles or soanyways im done on this forum there is just way to many experts for me hahaha.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 26, 2010)

Northernlights#5xHaze said:


> ya iI looked at omrom timers just not as much control as a plc also they are only good for about a million cycles or soanyways im done on this forum there is just way to many experts for me hahaha.


One cycle per every three minutes approx means a life span for the Omron's timer "relay" (the part that wears out) of almost 6 years. Replace it with another $2 relay and run it another 6 years etc etc. I have OMRON timers that are over 20 years old still in use. I have several dozen that have been in use on 1 minute cycles for over 4 years without the relay needing replacement. The average cyclic lifespan of the relay is a great deal greater than the very conservative number listed by OMRON. A PLC would simply control relays which would have the same limited life span as those used by OMRON or other timer manafacturers.

As far as a PLC, first it was a timer, now it's a PLC, next it will be a claim of using a main frame computer for a timer. As you choose or say. Using a PLC is sorta like renting a huge U-Haul truck to return a single book to the library.

As far as their being too many experts on this thread. Their are a few very knowledgable regulars on this thread. I doubt you will find any scientific reports of reseach studies on HP or air atomized aero systems that Tree Farmer of atomizer have not read. I would say honest, informative, growers who have well researched high pressure aero and atomized aero as a more appropriatte term rather than experts. Yes the quality of most of the information in this thread is above that posted to most of the other threads as most people come to this thread to learn from a few of the regulars rather than to attempt to prove them wrong. Hard to prove people wrong who can show scientific references to back their statements and that have actual experiences that show that information to be true.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 26, 2010)

Essex said:


> lol, who cares its a timer.... mine is cobbled together from a velleman timer kit, 15min segmet clock and a variable voltage DC transformer powering a 12v windscreen wiper motor with a micro-switch single revolition cutout attached to a 2000psi stainless steel ball valve. (couldent find a 1500psi+ solenoid valve anyware!)
> Cost about £15 and gives me independent night/day and infinitely ajustable on/off minimum about .5sec on time.
> 
> At the moment im building a +/-1oC automatic temperature controler to power a 60w peltier plate for my 76lbs NOS canister that im using as a nutrent header tank.
> ...


The amount of spray initially is determined by the volume of your growing chamber. The cycle time is adjusted to suit the requirements of the plants based upon lighting, temperature, humidity, CO2 concentration. You try to idealize those parameters then adjust your nutrient needs and cycle times to those parameters and the plant stages of growth and the size of the strain being grown. Just come back with a chamber volume size and determining an experimental starting spray volume is not that difficult. It will have to be adjusted to compensate for pressure, droplet size average and root vaolumein the chamber. Typically you start out with a cycle that is less than over saturation, move up to over saturation, then back down to just below over saturation. The cycle times can very a great deal depending on the spray volumes and droplet sizes. You fine tune from their to get the roots you wish. 

The root systems shown in the cheesy Atomix knock off as good roots are sad in comparison as to what is possible. The ones shown are really no better than what can be produced by a continuous or cyclic low pressure high water volume aero system in chambers rather than small tubes. Definitely not a growing system I would ever sell or put my name on as a designer.


----------



## Essex (Apr 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The amount of spray initially is determined by the volume of your growing chamber. The cycle time is adjusted to suit the requirements of the plants based upon lighting, temperature, humidity, CO2 concentration. You try to idealize those parameters then adjust your nutrient needs and cycle times to those parameters and the plant stages of growth and the size of the strain being grown. Just come back with a chamber volume size and determining an experimental starting spray volume is not that difficult. It will have to be adjusted to compensate for pressure, droplet size average and root vaolumein the chamber. Typically you start out with a cycle that is less than over saturation, move up to over saturation, then back down to just below over saturation. The cycle times can very a great deal depending on the spray volumes and droplet sizes. You fine tune from their to get the roots you wish.
> 
> The root systems shown in the cheesy Atomix knock off as good roots are sad in comparison as to what is possible. The ones shown are really no better than what can be produced by a continuous or cyclic low pressure high water volume aero system in chambers rather than small tubes. Definitely not a growing system I would ever sell or put my name on as a designer.


Fatman, you seem to know ya stuff so your a god to my plans if ya can help!!!!

Im running in a 1m x 1m x 2m tent.

Tents growing conditions:
Mineral oil cooled 600w HPS with double parabolic reflector,
Temps 21oC(min)/40oC(max) controled +/-1oC,
RH 30%(min)80%(max) controled +/-5%RH,
Co2 400PPM(min)/2000PPM(max) (controled) +/-100PPM.

Parts I have for feeding:
Pump 1500PSI 360L/H (Loud so can only charge header tank in day time on timer)
76lbs medical NOS tank (110cm hight x 16cm diameter) about 22L header tank (dont know how much liquid it will hold at 1500PSI??)
2000PSI home-made automated ball valve, minimum on time .5sec
Small 1L fire extinguisher to use as a manifold.

Still to make/get/size:
Root chamber (1m x 1m x?????) how tall should I make it? using a cilinder manifold mounted in center on bottom spraying up. was thinking 70cm tall?? 
Spray nozzles (brand, amount, spray size, flowrate??????) <----------- bit stuck here!

Want to root/harden off and place inside on 12/12, 24 plants mainly indica's in sog

Please help as I dont understand the math when you involve an unknown variable. (Plants  )


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 27, 2010)

Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 27, 2010)

Essex I would sure like to see the homemade automated ball valve you made, or if nothing else a good description.

And for the record water doesn't compress so that tank will hold whatever volume it holds.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 27, 2010)

There will be air in the tank before water is pumped into the tank. That air will compress but not so much as to allow the water to fully replace all its volume. A way to get increased flow before the pressure drops tp pump turn on pressure is to just do as people did for the decades before captive air tanks (bladder tanks) came into use. Simply put a cahck valve and a Teee fitting at the tanks entrance. Put an air snifter valve on the Tee's side branch. This allows you to precharge your tank to your pump cut in setting. Example if you want your minimum pressure at 60 psi then precharge your tank with air to 60 psi before pumping water into it. The air will eventually be dissolved into thwater so you would occasionally meed to drain the tank and recharge it with a full air charge. This will lower the amount of water the tank will hold but it will allow more water to flow at pressure beforethe pump needs to run.


----------



## Essex (Apr 27, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Essex I would sure like to see the homemade automated ball valve you made, or if nothing else a good description.
> 
> And for the record water doesn't compress so that tank will hold whatever volume it holds.


It's ugly, lol. Its at my m8's workshop else I would take a pic and show you.

It uses a 2-speed, self parking, windscreen wiper motor with 110° sweep and 1" shaft. 12 Volt.







And 1" Threaded, 1 piece, 2000 PSI Working Pressure ball valve.









The motor is mounted on a lump of wood with a stump of windscreen wiper arm atached and a M10 nut and bolt through a hole about 2" from main spindle.



A push rod with ball-race in 1 end is welded to threaded bar with threaded fork at end with M8 bolt through,






Drill hole through arm of ball valve and bolt fork through arm, bolt ball race to wiper arm, asemble tweak and tweak again!

It works well, took a day to plan and make out of car scraps......... would have bought one if i could have found 1500PSI solenide valve! 

Dont know how long it will last but good construction/tweaking is ya main problem


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 27, 2010)

Didn't you say it had a .5 second minimum on time? How did you get even close to that fast out of a wiper motor are you sure about that?

Fatman thanks for sharing that info on pre-charging a tank with air, never would have imagined that.


----------



## Atomizer (Apr 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.


i wonder how you came by that info..


----------



## Essex (Apr 27, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> Didn't you say it had a .5 second minimum on time? How did you get even close to that fast out of a wiper motor are you sure about that?
> 
> Fatman thanks for sharing that info on pre-charging a tank with air, never would have imagined that.


Because it is sat on a bench power supply 2-24v DC and has a progresive on/off cycle, I said "about" a .5sec minimum on time allowing for a increase in flow/full flow/decrease in flow I guesstimate a .5 sec "full on flow" if i pushed the voltage up.(I havent even run water through it yet so could all go wrong! )

If I needed an even faster cycle then this could be achieved by removing some turns from the coils in the motor, the only problem is it could burn out if pushed to extreme but with short cycle time and low load compared to a wiper blade I would say I could tweek away safely.

I am going to do a full diary with photo's, plans and construction details and circuit diagrams of all my custom controlers/setup as im hoping some people will enjoy my cheap make it ya-self attitude?


----------



## Essex (Apr 27, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.


OK, still none the wiser, lol

what I was thinkin is, 
taking an "on" time e.g. 4 sec
guessing an "off" time e.g. 3 min
guessing 20L water+ 2L compressed air at 1500PSI? so about 10L usable till about 750PSI?
not wanting to charge header tank at night for 12 hours

gives me a 43200 sec run time, 184 sec cycle time = 234 cycles/12 hours
10L / 234 cycles is 42ml per cycle
4sec x 234 cycles = 936 sec on
gives me a flow rate of about 641ml per minute??

Do these figures seem nearly enough? Im doubting my tank size now, lol

I just guessed a few plants aint going to use 10L in 12 hours?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 27, 2010)

Look at it this way. You need to spray a 10 ml cycle. If you have a one gallon per hour nozzle: (1 gal/hr * 3785 ml/gal)( 1 hr / 3600 sec)= 1.05 ml/sec (10 / 1.05) = 9.52 sec. However that much water is not needed every minute as your plants will not use that much water per minute and the vaporized water will not likely all leave the chamber in just one minute. So even at that rate your talking a max of (9.25 ml/min * 60 min/hr * 24 hr/day) = 13320 ml/day or about 13 liters/day. Likely 1/4 that is closer (3.25 liters per day <24 hours>). IE 0.86 gallons every 24 hours as a starting point. It is typical to use more then 1 nozzle so the spray times will be even less but the total volume sprayed will be the same.


----------



## zero1776 (Apr 28, 2010)

So if my math is right would I need around 100gal of water for a seven day cycle in a chamber 4'x8'x3'? rough estimate just want someone to check and see if Im in the ballpark trying to work out the details now.


fatman7574 said:


> Application is at a rate such that the nutrient solution occupies up to 0.001 percent of the chamber volume at all times. So a cubic meter is 1000 liters so (1000 L *1000 ml/L) * (0.001/100) = 10 ml. That means at all times (with a chamber of one cubic meter) you need up to 10 ml of nutrient inside the chamber in an atomized state. This would mean with such a cahmber empty spray in 10 ml and see how long that remains in an atomized state. If say it appears 25% is gone in 1 minute that would mean every minute you need to spray 2.5 ml to maintain the 10 ml you desire in the chamber. This is without accounting for plant up take after the plants roots are in the chamber. The plants wil need an increased amount of nutrient solution, but not so much that you can actually see water droplets accumalating on the roots and dripping off (over saturation). Water droplets should also not form on the net pots. The atomixed nutrients should just be enough for the roots to feel damp.


----------



## Paglia (Apr 28, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> i wonder how you came by that info..


 I'm interested too


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 28, 2010)

Essex said:


> Because it is sat on a bench power supply 2-24v DC and has a progresive on/off cycle, I said "about" a .5sec minimum on time allowing for a increase in flow/full flow/decrease in flow I guesstimate a .5 sec "full on flow" if i pushed the voltage up.(I havent even run water through it yet so could all go wrong! )
> 
> If I needed an even faster cycle then this could be achieved by removing some turns from the coils in the motor, the only problem is it could burn out if pushed to extreme but with short cycle time and low load compared to a wiper blade I would say I could tweek away safely.
> 
> I am going to do a full diary with photo's, plans and construction details and circuit diagrams of all my custom controlers/setup as im hoping some people will enjoy my cheap make it ya-self attitude?


I'm all about that make it ya-self cheap attitude, as long as it works and will last, and your valve sounds like it should last if put together right.

Thanks for the info, if I don't find your thread let me know about it.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 28, 2010)

zero1776 said:


> So if my math is right would I need around 100gal of water for a seven day cycle in a chamber 4'x8'x3'? rough estimate just want someone to check and see if Im in the ballpark trying to work out the details now.


Doesn't sound right at all. Post your math.

You have 2.71 cubic meters according to google and if you are going on his calculations, without even accounting for a single plant in the thing, then you are looking at 27.1ml x .25 = 6.775ml per minute and you can go from there.

But that was all hypothetical, and isn't going to tell you much.


----------



## Essex (Apr 28, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Look at it this way. You need to spray a 10 ml cycle. If you have a one gallon per hour nozzle: (1 gal/hr * 3785 ml/gal)( 1 hr / 3600 sec)= 1.05 ml/sec (10 / 1.05) = 9.52 sec. However that much water is not needed every minute as your plants will not use that much water per minute and the vaporized water will not likely all leave the chamber in just one minute. So even at that rate your talking a max of (9.25 ml/min * 60 min/hr * 24 hr/day) = 13320 ml/day or about 13 liters/day. Likely 1/4 that is closer (3.25 liters per day <24 hours>). IE 0.86 gallons every 24 hours as a starting point. It is typical to use more then 1 nozzle so the spray times will be even less but the total volume sprayed will be the same.


Ah, I get it! so my flow rate of 641ml per min is with 4 sec on time is over 4x more than enough, so I can just turn down to under 1 sec and allow good headroom for uptake.
641ml per min = 38.46L per hour = 8.4612 gal/hr

ok, so I got a flow rate in mind........

Wicked, your SO COOL 4 helping me!!!!!!

Next problem, starting preasure of 1500PSI droping to 750PSI would give me uneven flow rate/Too high preasure, for nossles I heve found.

So I need to regulate the preasure to a usable PSI with 8.4612 gal/hr flow rate cheap,

Will a standerd Co2 regulator work with water????

Any ideas??

Oh and im going to replace my home made valve with this http://aeroconsystems.com/cart/products/Lake_Axial_Solenoid_Valve-97-26.html good to 1000PSI so if i regulate before the valve should be ok, as I dont like the progresive on/off cycle with my jerry rigged contraption.


----------



## Essex (Apr 28, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> I'm all about that make it ya-self cheap attitude, as long as it works and will last, and your valve sounds like it should last if put together right.
> 
> Thanks for the info, if I don't find your thread let me know about it.


Im hoping to cost the whole build at about £500/$760 and try to get some good growers to help with nutrients/strains, because I would like to get more people TAG'in as I aint stupid but the info avaliable aint for a layman and I think it needs to be put in the hands of the people not only the few elite.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 28, 2010)

It doesn't look like this style of growing is as simple as that Essex, people have to blaze the trail, and even then there are better options for the masses than this. 


As far as strains it depends on the grow style you are going to run. Here is a list I compiled for the best yielding RDWC indoor trees people have reported so far. 

g-13 
lemon skunk
Sensi seeds hash plant
Northern Lights
Black Domina 
pre 98 bubba kush
romulan
grape romulan
Madness (subrob)
G13widow
Critical Mass (stable cut no nanners)
Mrs. Walker (jalisco kid)
Shit (mr. nice)
Sensi Star (very large yielding pheno)
Hashplant (86 sensi stock from Ozwilla-NL pheno)
blue Dream haze
Uk Cheese
God Bud
Big Kush
Chem D
Blue Dream


----------



## Essex (Apr 28, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> It doesn't look like this style of growing is as simple as that Essex, people have to blaze the trail, and even then there are better options for the masses than this.
> 
> 
> As far as strains it depends on the grow style you are going to run. Here is a list I compiled for the best yielding RDWC indoor trees people have reported so far.
> ...


This style of grow dont have to be complex or expensive, it just is at the moment.
There is no better grow style invented yet, this is NASA stuff!

I couldnt put a man in space but I am going copy there idea on a 5-50 micron spray for real cheap and share a how-to using parts any handyman can use. Im not rushing to finish as I have a grow just flowing and next lot in veg all in soil, but in a few months it will be workin.

Most of my creations work well, 

The internet conection im posting from is a home made Wi-Fi satellite dish link 1 mile away from the open router, so much for the 100m range on Wi-Fi. lol


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 28, 2010)

(0.86 gallons/cubic meter)/ day* 2.71 cubic meters = *2.33 gallons/day* with a day being 24 hours. That can be reduced even further by suply less nutrient solution when the lights are not on.

Also consider that you will be using a nutrient solution that is very dilute. Figure an EC of about 0.8. Therefore a gallon of a typical 100 x concentrate nutrient solution will make 300 gallons instead of 100 gallons. If it cost $50 a gallon then, ($50/300) * 2.33 = $0.39 per day for drain to waste nutrients.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 28, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> It doesn't look like this style of growing is as simple as that Essex, people have to blaze the trail, and even then there are better options for the masses than this.
> 
> 
> As far as strains it depends on the grow style you are going to run. Here is a list I compiled for the best yielding RDWC indoor trees people have reported so far.
> ...


I assume your choice of the wording better option really just means easier to just settling for a mentally simplier methodology requiring less, mental efforts and requiring less observations and learning IE by settling for "well enough" instead. 

Sure glad I am not just a part of "the masses" growing with the simply "well enough" methodologies. 

Always new abbreviations popping up. What is the R in RDWC. 

The best DWC's I have seen produce Bonzai type short internodal plants like HP or air atomized aeros, not trees. The poorer quality DWC produce slow growing trees much like that produced by TAG grows, but TAG grows are quicker.The best DWC systems use much more energy than the HP, air atomized or TAG aero for near the same results but require longer growing times. The poorer DWC commonly used to grow trees use less pump enegy but grow slower so over all use about the same total kwh as the better dwc sysytems to produce about 33% less yield per year.

Yes HP and air atomized aero require learning more about the plants needs then the other systems but the final production costs per gram are much lower and the yearly yield higher.

Poorer systems allow for good, not great, results with very little growing knowledge being needed so that does make them simplier for the masses that choose the "well enough" methodologies. The thing about "well enough" is that some people think soil grows "well enough", some think small tube low pressure aero "well enough." "Well enough" simply means settling for less than the best, maybe eewven less then mid range or possibly even less than poor. We all make our choices.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 28, 2010)

I said what I said to discourage annoying noobs from bothering you guys, let someone else blaze the trail with an easy to follow recipe type grow journal. 

I could have said it's a piece of cake, anyone can do it, and if you have problems fatman will help you. 

I went with option 1.


The r is for recirculating that's all. The list comes from the grow style you've already poo poo'd on. It's the current top yielding system which I'd like to replace with the system you've been helping me on with a degassing column, stacked 55 gallon res's etc. or with hp aero detuned to allow trees.


http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/

He has it all laid out perfectly, everything is absolutely set up ideally. It's aimed at those of us with a need to yield enough medicine and still stay within 6 plant per person type plant count legal medical limits. There is really nothing better you could do with dwc than what dd has done, the only reason I want to replace his system is it has height restrictions as the bins are elevated. I would be amazed if you found anything wrong with his setup other than it's not hp aero. (And not counting how overly complicated you consider a setup like that vs needle wheel or whatever. I mean his setup is ideal as far as performance/yield.)




http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f131/


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 28, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> I said what I said to discourage annoying noobs from bothering you guys, let someone else blaze the trail with an easy to follow recipe type grow journal.
> 
> I could have said it's a piece of cake, anyone can do it, and if you have problems fatman will help you.
> 
> ...


I really doubt there are many non recirculating DWC systems.

High cost, very high operation and maintenance costs and smaller, slower yields. How many specific problems in design would you like me to point out? To begin with the largest gets design flaw is that common to most systems. It is a recirculating nutrient system. Problem that alone there a large number of compounding problems. Secondly it is aqua culture and do to that a huge number of obvious problems, inefficiencies/inadequacies and energy wastage become burdensome. There really is not a lot of good about the systems as it is just a system where burdensome band aids with high maintenance and operation costs are used to force a poor methodology into appearing to be a system with adequate yields in a reasonable time period. It is as I said earlier better than the other DWC systems as far as plant health, growing cycle lengths and yield, but it is a poor performer in comparison to a high pressure deep chamber aero or air atomized aero and it has a much higher operation cost and per gram production cost then the high pressure deep chamber aero or air atomized aero. Even the cost of setting up the systems is outrageous. Four "sad" Danner 1800 pumps at $155 each. I would not recommend a Danner pump to anyone. Not even Earl or Roseman. 145 watts for 1800 gph. Buy some Reeflo pumps at 3600 watts for the same or less wattage draw. 

Nothing impressive about the design, its performance in relation to its purchase/maintenance and operations costs. I would not even consider the system without at least adding both a pH and an EC controller and the four pumps required (or solenoids/pinch valves) needed for fluid dispensing. An automatic water top off device would be wise also. Do you want more specifics such as why anyone would use a double handful of air stones when they could use simple venturis for much greater efficiency and virtually no maintenance requirements. I would have to make a very large reply to cover all the problems of such a DWC systems. Better option system? I think not. 

As far as being the highest yielder. My old medium pressure large tube aeros produce higher yields with lower set up cost/, lower maintenace and lower operation costs then the systems you tout. They are shorter cycles and the yield is g higher per square foot of space used. The over all cost per gram for production is less. And the medium pressure aero will easily produce either fast SOG or trees without physical changes being made to the system except putting empty pots wo ith neoprene rounds in empty holes. The air atomized is easily out performing the medium pressure with fast compact SOG grows producing tighter heavier buds in a shorter cycle time. I don't grow trees (except for clones and seeds) as they are lower yield higher cost indoor grows. Even in an outdoor green house grow I would choose SOG, not trees. The tree grows other than looking impressive are really only advantageous to those trying to stay within legal grow allowances in medical mj states based on total live plants allowed at one time.


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 28, 2010)

I knew you were going to give the whole rundown again, I am not disagreeing with any of it. I already tried to head you off there saying I knew you'd say it was overcomplicated blah blah blah needle wheel pump etc I agree with all of it I only meant that as far as rdwc and how productive you can make it, he has it nailed. 

Can other systems do better with trees and limited plant counts like that whole system is specifically aimed at, with a veg room to allow the flower room to flip like a sog?

I believe you there too, just haven't seen it yet. I need to put together a system to prove you right, nobody else has.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 28, 2010)

I think you need to define trees. To me trees are about 4 foot tall plants or larger. Most of the better quality DWC's grow about 20 to 30 inch tall plants as are common to non quick SOG HP or air atomized deep chamber aero grows. A DWC with many pumps and airstones etc also produce the same short plants as is common to typical HP or air atomized deep chamber aero grows. They do not produce trees usually as they have to many hair roots for tall tree growth. So basically they produce plants almost as bonzai inqualities as the HP or air atomized deep chamber aero grows but at a higher operating/growing cost due to the high wattages used by all the pumps and air pump(s). There lighting systems are usually much less efficient also as they typically use vertical lighting.

There are more than just a few systems that prove me right. Those systems are just owned my people who do not post photos. I have not posted a photo of any part of a growing system or any product from a system since 2001. I have also, not surprisingly, been indicted or arraigned for any growing charges since I quit posting photos. One felony conviction and a subsequent prison term was enough to convince me grow forum photos are a a bad idea. I do not recommend people post photos of grow room equipment or mj. Unless they like stell bars that go clang behind them. There is the free three hots and the cot though. Two inch thick mats over a steel plate is really notthat great ofa cot though. Prison meals are not delightful.


----------



## zero1776 (Apr 29, 2010)

yeah I was doing the calculations on my phone I screwed up big time on them somehow. It gets me closer to a starting point I know roughly what size res. I would want to get And I think I will just use a 50gal drum gives me a lot of cushion I like the numbers a lot more now.


OregonMeds said:


> Doesn't sound right at all. Post your math.
> 
> You have 2.71 cubic meters according to google and if you are going on his calculations, without even accounting for a single plant in the thing, then you are looking at 27.1ml x .25 = 6.775ml per minute and you can go from there.
> 
> But that was all hypothetical, and isn't going to tell you much.


----------



## Essex (Apr 29, 2010)

We should not argue about what is the BEST grow style, NASA done this for us! 5-50 micron mist in a large air space............ (You cant argue with them boys till YOU put a man in space, they spent milions of pounds in research and built a place called the epcot center to show there grows)

You can argue that it is not best for EVERYONE as lots of people use mud because they cant/wont/dont strive for perfection.

DWC is among the better hydroponics but is not even in the same book let alone on the same page!

There are NO high-preassure grow systems avaliable that are suitable unless you are in the trade and these are stupid expensive and custom built,I dont think there WILL BE any because as far as im aware NASA's partners own the patents and aint gunna want you to grow weed wiv em!

Anyway back to trying to regulate water pressure for cheap. (Come on fatman I need ya help!)

I found this, http://www.esska-tech.co.uk/cgi-bin/esska_eng/iboshop.cgi?showd10420!0,966728474475496,irXmsirXes00 but its $656 I was thinking about $100 would be a good price. +million rep for anyone who finds a cheap one!


----------



## 12268 (Apr 29, 2010)

fatman are you saying that an air pump can be replaced with some sort of venturi valve??!! I'm very interested in that..I only know of venturi in carbs...i know they're a SMALL tapered needle and such, how could you get air in your res with one?


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 29, 2010)

Yes venturi valves can replace air stones. They perform much better than airstones. A venturi valve can be installed on either the pump exit or entrance. If installed on the entrance they airlinerunning to the venturi needs to have a ball ot gate valve on it to prevent too much air from being drawn into the pump. To much air cai uses the pump to cavitate (run inbalnaced) which lowers its life span. Using the venturi on the exit prevents that but it created larger air bubbles. On the entrance side the bubbles are chopped up by the pumps inpellor creating many very, very small bubbles. Commercial green house operators use venturi valves not airstones. To get really huge amounts of bubbles fedd the venturi valve with an air pump. This air also need to be controlled or the pump can get too much air and it will not restart pumping after a power outage as it would not be able to build up enough water pressure.

Here is a link to some venturi valves.

http://www.petstore.com/venturi+valve-si.html


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 29, 2010)

Typically the more common fluid regulators are for inlet pressures of 300 psi or less with outlet pressures of 150 psi or less. Something with pressures as high as your talking for an inlet pressure would typically only be used by the oil industry or petrochemical energy. Usually only gases are stored at such high pressures, not fluids. The regulator you provide a link to is for gases not liquid. Are you building a HP aero or an air atomized aero system? Even with air at pressures that high the pressure wold be done by a tow part regulator. The first part wold step the pressure down to something like 150 psi and the second part (the adjustable part) would run from zero psi to 150 psi (for an example).


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 29, 2010)

Essex said:


> We should not argue about what is the BEST grow style, NASA done this for us! 5-50 micron mist in a large air space............ (You cant argue with them boys till YOU put a man in space, they spent milions of pounds in research and built a place called the epcot center to show there grows)
> 
> You can argue that it is not best for EVERYONE as lots of people use mud because they cant/wont/dont strive for perfection.
> 
> ...


That regulator type is available on eBayfor less than $100. Actually you could probably get it for $50. It is a gas regulator not a fluid regulator. Inlet at up to 3000 psi and outlet from zero to 150 psi. http://cgi.ebay.com/Tescom-44-High-Flow-Purge-Regulator-Pressure-Gas-Valve-/220595315130?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item335c8161ba


----------



## Essex (Apr 29, 2010)

sorry fatman, why does it say this in description on page?

*Application*

High Pressure Regulator Max. 276 bar
For Gases and Fluids
The site is wrong or will all regulators of this type work with fluids as gas in cylinders could be liqud in tank is inverted????


----------



## Essex (Apr 29, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Typically the more common fluid regulators are for inlet pressures of 300 psi or less with outlet pressures of 150 psi or less. Something with pressures as high as your talking for an inlet pressure would typically only be used by the oil industry or petrochemical energy. Usually only gases are stored at such high pressures, not fluids. The regulator you provide a link to is for gases not liquid. Are you building a HP aero or an air atomized aero system? Even with air at pressures that high the pressure wold be done by a tow part regulator. The first part wold step the pressure down to something like 150 psi and the second part (the adjustable part) would run from zero psi to 150 psi (for an example).


I only want HP aero, could just get a 120psi pump for window washers van off e-bay for £100 but I want a bit more pressure and allready got a pressure washer sat next to me.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 29, 2010)

Can't really argue with the add, but it is uncommon for high pressure regulators to be both fluid and gas unless it is for gases in a fluid state. My self for HP fluid I would use a step down regulator followed by an all plastic low pressure regulator. I am not much for brass, steel or even stainless steel in contact with a solution heavy in corrosive salts. The life span is just too short. While a item might say for gas or liquid that does not mean equally as well for both especially when it comes to working life spans. I am really confused with why you are using such a very highpressure pump. The efficiency of the pump goes down extremely fast as the pressure output increases. The only advantage to the higher pressures is the smaller storage space required. Thi is usually offset by the increased costs of power consumed and the higher prices for the storage vessel and the higher pressure gages, controls (pressure switches, regulators and solenoids).


----------



## Essex (Apr 29, 2010)

Because bigger is better, lol. na really coz most 5-50 micron spray nozzles I found work with 1000PSI for misting people to keep em cool, seems a fairly everyday item so the spray nozzles are cheap and easly replaceable.

Storage vessel, is just a medical grade NOS bottle that I had the pleasure to empty into my lungs. cost free from m8, am going to see if it has a coating inside else I might teflon coat as I heard this to be good protection?

Ya seem to worry alot about power consumption of hydro systems? this is normaly a tiny cost compared to the HPS sat above and I dont consider a huge prob.

My jetwash is 1600w, 1500psi, 360l/h. so to fill my 21L tank to 1500PSI will take 3.5 min and last over 12 hours? that aint much power?


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 29, 2010)

When they say fluid I doubt they're considering the complex mix of junk our liquid contains which is going to build up a residue quick.
They are probably considering just like you said the liquid states of the gasses it's meant for, they don't leave residue.

I don't know man, sounds like it's worth a try but I bet you are going to need something else or maybe use a regulator and more than one meter so you can see when they start to disagree and replace them at different times so one is always newer than the other.

The cheap nozzles to mist people, can those really be trusted to get accurate spray from down to the micron? Seriously? 
That would be great, I'd love to be wrong, but I can't see that being possible. They wouldn't even test them that seriously when they are designed for that purpose. Quality control would not test on that level to be sure they were maintaining the same size mist through manufacturing variations.

I have experience in plastic injection molding process monitoring and die casting and a few other areas, not that in depth, but enough to know how much variation occurs and failure rates in quality control etc. 

How is it possible on a micron scale?


----------



## Essex (Apr 30, 2010)

I dont realy think that nutrents are as corosive as everyone thinks? If ya are running 200-300ppm like ya ment to in true hp this is the same amount of salts as some peoples tap water? and 5-6 ph is not that acidic to be corosive?

Type "outdoor misting systems" in google, there are 1000's of sites with mutiple "cheap nozzles" the reason they are cheap is because they are a "mass market" product, unlike some technical website who sells to the trade. Some I found advertise 6-11 micron spray nozzles and sell 5 micron filters, stupidly small sizes!!!

"They wouldn't even test them that seriously when they are designed for that purpose." 
They are a spray nozzle for many purposes that all get made by slanty eyed races with small pins who can SEE 5 microns....... lol (they are a common product mass produced why would the tec spec's lie?)

"How is it possible on a micron scale"
They make microchips with up to 1 million transistors per mm2. 1mm=1000 microns (there always squintin, this is why! lol)


----------



## OregonMeds (Apr 30, 2010)

I didn't ever mean to say they were corrosive, just that they create a buildup fast. After your next run look at the shit you have to clean and imagine that in the inner workings of the regulator. It won't eat it, just could gunk it up fast if it's not meant to handle what would be called DIRTY water.

I don't think you understand the difference between billion dollar silicon wafer manufacturing tolerances, and lowest bidder cheap part production Essex. Like I said I have seen the tolerances and failure rates in manufacturing, and the average error rate is much greater than the scale you want accuracy on. Just the slightest variation in pressure, heat, cleanliness of the tools, age of the tools, thickness of material going in, etc etc etc. Manufacturing is only as accurate as you would like when the money and time and quality control are put into place to keep it that way, and that just doesn't happen on the cheapest mass produced parts where nobody would ever know if it was putting out 5 micron mist or 100 micron.

As long as they misted people and kept them cool and didn't spit big globs of water all over they would be called good.

They don't even test more than 1 in a 1000 parts when produced on this scale.


----------



## Essex (Apr 30, 2010)

Well I agree to some of ya points but why would they specify a 6-11 micron mist or whatever output, when in ya own words who would care as long as it keeps ya cool? any spray nozzle will spit huge variances ya are after most to be in the 5-50 micron range acording to NASA.

I plan on filtering with probaly a 2 stage system to eminate large particals and with 1000PSI I would have thought that any smaller particals would be broken down under pressure? this is a problem with any TAG grow but regular cleaning and mantence should help.

I dont have all the answers, Im just going to try! I can say it WONT work first time but with some mod's i'll get it going............


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 30, 2010)

Essex said:


> I dont realy think that nutrents are as corosive as everyone thinks? If ya are running 200-300ppm like ya ment to in true hp this is the same amount of salts as some peoples tap water? and 5-6 ph is not that acidic to be corosive?
> 
> Type "outdoor misting systems" in google, there are 1000's of sites with mutiple "cheap nozzles" the reason they are cheap is because they are a "mass market" product, unlike some technical website who sells to the trade. Some I found advertise 6-11 micron spray nozzles and sell 5 micron filters, stupidly small sizes!!!
> 
> ...


The salt prevalent in tap water is calcium. Calcium is not corrosive but is a mineral that tends to precipitate when ever heated or when the water it is in is pressurized. The higher the water is pressurized the lower the amount of calcium until stuaration (so precipitation occurs). At 1500 psi you will have huge an mounts of calcium precipitation. Fertilizers salts are mostly corrosive salts. 

The reason the nozzles are cheap is beacuse they are poorly made of cheap materials with no precision or quality control. Read up on the abrasive qualities of high pressure solutions sprayed through nozzles. The cheap plastic nozzles are not worth using. The cheap plastic nozzles has almost no life span used with high pressures. Brass has less then 1/10 the life span of stainless steel, which has a minimal life span in comparison to hardened stainless steel, which has a minimal life span in comparison to ceramic nozzles. Used for applications such as colling the problem associated with the abrasion of the higher pressure solution constantly increases the orifice (hole) size of the nozzle is not an extreme issue. However when spraying nutrients where micron size and volumes is highly important it is extremely important. My nozzles bodies are brass but the guts that are in contact with the solution and that form the actual spray (orifice) aspect of the nozzles are hardened stainless steel. With low pressure atomization they will go a decade or more before oro ifice enlargement becomes an issue. Plastic sprayer nozzles used with HP should probably be replaced after every grow at a minimum. I use 5 micron filtration for my nutrient solutions. the manafcturer recomendation is for 20 micron or smaller. I definitely do not consider 5 micron filtration stupidly small. 

If I used a recirculating system and an accumulator tank such as with a HP system I would use 0.5 micron filtration. Even then the accumalator tank needs to be cleaned regularly with acid or your filter elements will need frequent replacement. The merely running of the water through a high pressure pump causes calcium bicarbonate formation and precipitation. The solution held under pressure causes more calcium bicarbonate formation and precipitation. Both heat and pressure cause water soluble calcium to form carbonate/bicarbonate precipitation which coats tanks,pipes, valves, gages, nozzles and clogs filters quickly. 

Run some hot tap water through a coffee filter and measure the TDS of the water. Now measure the TDS of your cold tap water. If you have any appreciable calcium in your cold tap water you will have appreciable less in your filtered hot water. The heating of the water turns soluble calcium into calcium carbonate which is easily removed by filtration. The nutrient waterin the resrvoir feeding a HP aero pump feeding the pressure tank ghas a higher soluble calcium level than the water leaving the mister nozzles. That calcium does not just dissapear. It becomes calcium bicarbonate and coatts things and sits in the bottom of the accumulator tank. If the nutrient pH was above around 8 it would be calcium carbonate. As the water is at a low pH the some of soluble calcium becomes calcium bicarbonate.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 30, 2010)

OregonMeds said:


> I didn't ever mean to say they were corrosive, just that they create a buildup fast. After your next run look at the shit you have to clean and imagine that in the inner workings of the regulator. It won't eat it, just could gunk it up fast if it's not meant to handle what would be called DIRTY water.
> 
> I don't think you understand the difference between billion dollar silicon wafer manufacturing tolerances, and lowest bidder cheap part production Essex. Like I said I have seen the tolerances and failure rates in manufacturing, and the average error rate is much greater than the scale you want accuracy on. Just the slightest variation in pressure, heat, cleanliness of the tools, age of the tools, thickness of material going in, etc etc etc. Manufacturing is only as accurate as you would like when the money and time and quality control are put into place to keep it that way, and that just doesn't happen on the cheapest mass produced parts where nobody would ever know if it was putting out 5 micron mist or 100 micron.
> 
> ...


They likely check "visually" one a day on average. Actual instrument and product performance testing is likely only done when the equipment is initially brought on line. Precision just doesn't matter in the applications where the product is intended to be used. it is not like they are fuel nozzles for a space shuttle or even spray nozzles for spraying agricultural foliar fertilizersm, pesticides or herbicides.


----------



## fatman7574 (Apr 30, 2010)

Essex said:


> Well I agree to some of ya points but why would they specify a 6-11 micron mist or whatever output, when in ya own words who would care as long as it keeps ya cool? any spray nozzle will spit huge variances ya are after most to be in the 5-50 micron range acording to NASA.
> 
> I plan on filtering with probaly a 2 stage system to eminate large particals and with 1000PSI I would have thought that any smaller particals would be broken down under pressure? this is a problem with any TAG grow but regular cleaning and mantence should help.
> 
> I dont have all the answers, Im just going to try! I can say it WONT work first time but with some mod's i'll get it going............


5 to 50 micron is not the recomended range for use. It just so happens that the sad atomizer that atomix chose to use could be adapted to spray as little as 5 micron. NASA recommends essentially 50 micron. Yes there will be a small percentage of the spray above and beow 50 micron. However good nozzles set up properly provide only a very, very small percentage of droplets smaller than 30 micro or higher than 80 micron. The length of time this performance lasts depends on the quality of the materials used to make the nozzles. The cheap nozzles are just made of polyethelene plastic. Their performance is short lived. The higher the ressure the shorter their period of usability.


----------



## Essex (May 1, 2010)

I wasnt saying plastic, I wouldnt use plastic. what about nozzles like this,

http://www.normist-tr.com/menu.htm
http://www.amfog.com/mt_series.asp
http://www.mistingpros.com/Mist-Nozzles/
http://www.cloudburst.com/catalog/nozzles-plugs-c-21_30.html

Are any of these the correct type needed? these are mosty brass with stainless steel inserts? this is what I meen by cheap, under £10 each. most need over 250psi up to 1500psi

I think that 5 microns is very small its 0.005mm this is tiny no?

I am learnin slowly, thanks for your input!


----------



## Essex (May 1, 2010)

Fatman, what brand nutrients do u use and do u use RO water?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 1, 2010)

Yes I use RO water. I mix my own nutrients. I am still working on a formulation that will work best for my drain to waste SOG grows with air atomized spraying. Using low ppm (EC) nutrients I am getting back in my drain a large percentage of calcium, magnesium, phosphorus and iron I originally supplied in the nutrient solution. Spraying cyclic drain to waste with fine droplets, produces a waste water that seems to indicate a need to change the ratio of fertilizers as the methodology seems to indicate a much smaller requirement for calcium, magnesium and phosphorus as they are not being used as buffers. 

That means actually back tracking down the evolutionary hydroponic nutrient trail. The advances in the mj nutrients over the last decade or so have been based upon recirculating reservoirs systems requirements rather than plant tissue samples. Therefore the concentration of the minerals used as buffers or that regularly precipitate have been adjusted to way beyond the plants nutrient needs so as to always have available the plants needs even when buffering takes place in the recirculating reservoir. That is one of the reasons for the high EC needs with modern mj specific nutrients. Commercial greenhouse growers of vegetables and ornamental growers have a better manner of adjusting their needs as they can do tissue samples of legal crops with impunity. The commercial growers using recirculating systems (typically NTF) tend to have huge, huge systems so the cost of doing water sample testing for nutrient concentrations is more tolerable than it would be for a home grower of mj. 

There is not this need to supply more nutrients then the plants uptake needs with drain to waste where their is no recirculating reservoir where buffering takes place. This means going back to the old traditional hydroponic formulation from 30 to 40 years ago that were entirely based upon plant tissue samples. Those using recirculating reservoirs re stuck with "modern" mj formulations and the daily pH adjustments and such.

There is the problem that tissue samples on modern day mj plants are not in print anywhere that I am aware of. The closet available is on Canadian commercial Hemp plants. Not the same but closer then using agricultural plant crop tissue samples such as wheat or tomatoes.


----------



## Essex (May 1, 2010)

I hate the fact that there is no real scientific testing in any field of the MJ plant, just misconseptions and hype from advertisers! I did hear Ionics nutes was quite good with TAG but this has HUGE buffers in it so am not quite convinced now reading ya last post.

About 8 years ago I had the complete nutrent uptake cycle on a bit of paper but lost a long time ago  (dont know where from or how accurate but seemed good)

Are them type of nozzles I linked to OK in your opinion????


----------



## OregonMeds (May 1, 2010)

Is this lab the kind that can do the testing you want Fatman? 


https://www.rollitup.org/medical-marijuana-news/327004-genovations-laboratory-analytical-now-all.html#post4106754


----------



## fatman7574 (May 1, 2010)

Essex said:


> I wasnt saying plastic, I wouldnt use plastic. what about nozzles like this,
> 
> http://www.normist-tr.com/menu.htm
> http://www.amfog.com/mt_series.asp
> ...


They seem like the would work fine for a very high pressure system where you wnat a very small droplets size. H Just keep in mind that a very small droplet size produces less efficient growth than the larger 50 micron drop size is capable of producing, A small or a large micron systems set up at its most effiecent cyclic pattern wll not produce as much growth as fast as the 50 micron system set up at its most efficient cylic setting. Large droplets means oversaturation any time the sprayer is sparying due to the too large droplert size. Small droplet sizes require an over concentration of water in the chamber to provide the plants water needs but this limits nearly all air contact with the roots lowering plant root health and water uptake. Thi is relieved in part by cyclic spraying, but as this then lowers the times that the plants are recieving the required water they need when growing at a maximum rate the growth rate will be slower than with 50 micron spraying. 


Yes 5 microns is small but it is not all that small as far as filtration is concerned. Consider it will remove things in the microscope size range. Smaller than can be seen by the human eye, but not as small as can be seen by an electron micrscope. 5 micron is a very typical filtration size for RO prefilters and carbon block filters used with RO filters.

Five (5) microns, short for 5 micrometers, is a unit of measurement equal to five millionth of a meter. A micron is 0.000195 of an inch. 
A human hair is 40 to 120 microns in diameter.

Carbonates grow much easier if they are seeded. This means carbonate expand more readily on an existing precipitated carbonate particle then they will form as a new precipitate. What is that old expression: "Birds of a feather flock together." Eliminate as much of the seed stock as you can and you slow the process.

It is much harder for the first small carbonate particle to form on a surface then it is for the second, third and fourth particle to form on the first particle. So fine filtration is more beneficial than coarser filtration. I do use full size filters as used on RO filters not small coarser screens. The larger 10" filters have a very large surface area so they do not clog quickly and cause pressure drops. Plus there are a hugh number of sources for replacement filter elements at cheap costs.


----------



## Essex (May 1, 2010)

I want a 50 micron mist as this is the whole point of TAG! I just thought the NASA spec was 5-50 microns but I will bow down to your superior knowledge as info is so scarce in this field.

So if I feed my nutes from a bucket into a 200 micron screen pre filter, then into my preasure washer, then through a 5 micron carbon filter into my NOZ tank, then through a pressure redusing valve, then my solanode valve, then my fire extinguisher with non-drip 50 micron stainless steel insert nozzles mounted in it.

This is all good???


----------



## fatman7574 (May 1, 2010)

I would put the outlet on the exit from the NOz tank. The main protection you need to provide is to your pressure regulator, valves, solenoid(s) and the nozzles. The tank will always have a carbonate build up problem no matter waht you do. Just put an extra tee fitting in at the inlet and out letsso you can occasionally add some acid to break down and remove the calcium carbonates (close inlet, use up all water in tank then slowly release air pressure from extra Tee valve, through the open valve pour in dilute acid until tank is full <lots of foam will come out of open valve>, then blow out tank with air by using the other Tees valve that should have your air snifter used for tank pre pressurizing, then add some some fresh water and blow it out).


----------



## Essex (May 1, 2010)

Sweet m8, thanks for all your help!

Hope ya will give some more good advise on nutes/dialing in when its all built in few months, but at least I got it all planed now!

+million rep n karma


----------



## zero1776 (May 1, 2010)

was looking for a suitable atomizer and found these.http://www.bugpage.com/xcart/hudson-atomizer-ulv-fogger-w-flex-hose-99598.html Do you think they would work for a aero unit? Im looking to find a way to distribute the nutrient without as many components as a HP setup but still have the micron range right. Also you guys are adjusting the time between spray cycles and the length of time of the spray. Is there a sensor and adj. controller I could incorporate to keep a certain amount of atomized nutrient in the air a humidity sensor or moisture sensor that would turn on the sprayers when mist is low and off when the mist is at a proper level? I work in production so I would think this would be possible but have not seen a set up like this in use.


----------



## OregonMeds (May 1, 2010)

Essex said:


> I want a 50 micron mist as this is the whole point of TAG! I just thought the NASA spec was 5-50 microns but I will bow down to your superior knowledge as info is so scarce in this field.
> 
> So if I feed my nutes from a bucket into a 200 micron screen pre filter, then into my preasure washer, then through a 5 micron carbon filter into my NOZ tank, then through a pressure redusing valve, then my solanode valve, then my fire extinguisher with non-drip 50 micron stainless steel insert nozzles mounted in it.
> 
> This is all good???


[youtube]Tf15Nlyr5_k[/youtube]


----------



## Essex (May 1, 2010)

zero1776 said:


> was looking for a suitable atomizer and found these.http://www.bugpage.com/xcart/hudson-atomizer-ulv-fogger-w-flex-hose-99598.html Do you think they would work for a aero unit? Im looking to find a way to distribute the nutrient without as many components as a HP setup but still have the micron range right. Also you guys are adjusting the time between spray cycles and the length of time of the spray. Is there a sensor and adj. controller I could incorporate to keep a certain amount of atomized nutrient in the air a humidity sensor or moisture sensor that would turn on the sprayers when mist is low and off when the mist is at a proper level? I work in production so I would think this would be possible but have not seen a set up like this in use.


I was also wondering if it is posable to mesure the humidity and spray rather than using cycle timer.......


----------



## zero1776 (May 1, 2010)

Essex said:


> I was also wondering if it is posable to mesure the humidity and spray rather than using cycle timer.......


Yeah it would make sense to have something able to control the spray in a on demand setup where it would keep the level at a optimum point throughout all the stages of growth. Of course you still would have to set what you consider optimum it would just adj. delivery as needed to keep it there throughout all stages of your grow.Im sure you could set up a plc and sensor input card with a output to run your mist system but would like some thing a little simpler that is still accurate. Im going to be looking.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 1, 2010)

Saturation of air is usually considered a humidity of 100%. However the saturation level is temperature dependent. That is why we have relative humidity readings and dry bulb temperature readings.

While It might be possible to control the cyclic spraying of a 50 micro droplet system pretty well with a relative humidity controller type thermostat arrangement, the problem is with a large droplet size the droplets if contacting the controller sensor would always saturation. With really small micro drops the controller would seldom ever consider the chamber 100% saturated. A 50 micron can be run 100% of the time as long as the chamber relative humidity is not up to saturation (100%). This could nean setting upa multiple of misters seperately controlled so that you could run as many as you need to run 100% of the time to maintain say 95% relative humidity (the max allowed by most controllers). But your talking very small nozzles unless you have quite large chambers. For a chamber like you mentioned earlier your talking a gallon or so per day. That would mean ideally using nozzles that spray only 750 or 100 ml per hour, and running constantly from 2 to 4 at a time depending on night or day, size of plants, plant room hunmidity, temperature, lighting, CO2 etc.

I know humidistat circuit boards are usually epoxy coated and you could coat your electrical connections. I am not sure I would trust the factory coating though. Fertilizer and circuit boards are not very compatable.


----------



## zero1776 (May 2, 2010)

do they make a sensor that can register difference in signal from a sending unit to a receiving unit to measure the difference in across a 100% humidity filled chamber and a 75% humidity filled chamber? maybe IR or RF? This way you would be able to mount them on the outside of the chamber with a small whole on each side to send the signal through that could be sealed with the face of the sensor and silicone.


fatman7574 said:


> Saturation of air is usually considered a humidity of 100% However the saturation level is temperature dependent. That is why we have relative humidity readings and dry bulb temperature readings.
> 
> While It might be possible to control the cyclic spraying of a 50 micro droplet system pretty well with a relative humidity controller type thermostat arrangement, the problem is with a large droplet size the droplets if contacting the controller sensor would always saturation. With really small micro drops the controller would seldom ever consider the chamber 100% saturated. A 50 micron can be run 100% of the time as long as the chamber relative humidity is not up to saturation (100%). This could nean setting upa multiple of misters seperately controlled so that you could run as many as you need to run 100% of the time to maintain say 95% relative humidity (the max allowed by most controllers). But your talking very small nozzles unless you have quite large chambers. For a chamber like you mentioned earlier your talking a gallon or so per day. That would mean ideally using nozzles that spray only 750 or 100 ml per hour, and running constantly from 2 to 4 at a time depending on night or day, size of plants, plant room hunmidity, temperature, lighting, CO2 etc.
> 
> I know humidistat circuit boards are usually epoxy coated and you could coat your electrical connections. I am not sure I would trust the factory coating though. Fertilizer and circuit boards are not very compatable.


----------



## Essex (May 2, 2010)

I got a humidistat in my veg room linked to a fogger, it uses a plastic membrane in a streched loop that shrinks/expands with RH and switches a micro switch. But not at all acurate enough for controling a feeding chamber.

I could build one using something like this,
http://uk.farnell.com/ist/p14-smd-g/sensor-humidity-capacitive-smd/dp/1778041
its acurate to +/-1.5% at under 90% RH but states it will react up to 100% and looks very liniar capacitance rise up to 100%RH

I see what your saying about a contant mist but uptake rates will very with plant size.

Fatman, what do you think? am I trying to re-invent the wheel? or would it work better than a cycle timer?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

zero1776 said:


> do they make a sensor that can register difference in signal from a sending unit to a receiving unit to measure the difference in across a 100% humidity filled chamber and a 75% humidity filled chamber? maybe IR or RF? This way you would be able to mount them on the outside of the chamber with a small whole on each side to send the signal through that could be sealed with the face of the sensor and silicone.


That would be very difficult as unless you overspray to satauration constantly to limit hair root growth as otherwise the hair root growth would be so thick it is doubtful such an area could be found in the chamber where there is an unobstructed path across the chamber. The chambers pretty fill with roots quickly.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

Essex said:


> I got a humidistat in my veg room linked to a fogger, it uses a plastic membrane in a streched loop that shrinks/expands with RH and switches a micro switch. But not at all acurate enough for controling a feeding chamber.
> 
> I could build one using something like this,
> http://uk.farnell.com/ist/p14-smd-g/sensor-humidity-capacitive-smd/dp/1778041
> ...


I checked your link and they seem to have a lot of sensors good to 100% humidity but with accuraccy of only 3+/- or 3.5 +/-. I do not realy know electronics enough to say whether these would be any better then the more common humidistst. The humidistat control used with the 50 micron nozzles would seem to be a better choice then a cyclic timer. I really am not much for controlling growing operations with a computer though and other than that manner I do not know what is available in the way of analog loop device that will allow users to set control parameters and that control a relay. I took only one college course in electronics and have avoid circuit boards ever since.


----------



## Essex (May 2, 2010)

wow fatman, something ya dont know electronics! Im shocked, lol

I could build a circuit to do the required stuff, I wouldnt use a computer though as they just crash, unless it linux. If ya wanted digital control a PIC would work as intended, but analog would be the best.

Would controling humidity at 3+/-% work? your guess is probaly a lot more educated than mine! I have already built the cycle timer and this RH control would be a large undertaking and if didnt work I would be disapointed, lol


----------



## fatman7574 (May 2, 2010)

It should work better than a cyclic timer. Typically the adjustment is to set t your spray time so that it sprays until the sar turation point is reached (100% humidity then back down a ways). The set your time between cycles so that the plants show no water deficiency spraying. The humistat would keep the humidity at the optimim level nearlty always re ather than just for a while after each spraying and h just acceptable but very likely not nera optimal for a fair portionof time between sprays. The humidista should provide better control over the ratio of hair roots to lateral and primary roots so as to give better control over the bonzai effect. This should allow for easier growing of taller plants without having to result to a TAG grow with the stretched out plants with wide internodal spacing. Setting the range between the high and the low humidity would be a possible problem as I doubt hysterisis is a simple circuitry addition. Hysterisis capability would be able to stop over or under shooting that can occur when the humidity is very near or at the on and off points.


----------



## Essex (May 2, 2010)

I had to google hysterisis, ya make me feel stupid wid ya big words! lol

I cant control the spray output in a persentage state as solanode valves are just on/off.

I can have 2 controls to have a high RH/off and low RH/on?

Or if the RH drops below a set state like 90% it gives a squirt and waits for the RH to drop again?

what ya think?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 3, 2010)

I think it would definitely be worth trying it out.


----------



## AeroTrek (May 3, 2010)

Fatman, Essex,

Wouldn't the micron size of the RH liquid particles fall well below 50 microns making it a fogger unit? I understand these foggers may do well for seedlings and clones but have little effect on veg or bloom growth. Relative humidity (percentage of water vapour transported by a volume of air) equals RH. At 100% RH you essentially would have a fogger.

I think the best way to control the volume of 50 micron particles (other than a timer) is by using an infrared sensor that would measure the refraction of the particles from one end of the root chamber to the other. Of course the refracted signal would have to be calibrated to the volume of 50 micron particles required in the root chamber.

I could be off base here with my understanding of RH, but it seems to me it is a vapour with micron sizes well below 50.


----------



## Essex (May 3, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Fatman, Essex,
> 
> Wouldn't the micron size of the RH liquid particles fall well below 50 microns making it a fogger unit? I understand these foggers may do well for seedlings and clones but have little effect on veg or bloom growth. Relative humidity (percentage of water vapour transported by a volume of air) equals RH. At 100% RH you essentially would have a fogger.
> 
> ...


Na not a fogger, 50 micron spray nozzles. This is NASA's grow style and can grow big plants, a fogger is not the same and is not any good.

I thought of a infrared or microwave sensor but ya roots will grow in the chamber and stop it from working.

You are correct RH is water vapor in the air and is well below the 50 microns. But it is nearly imposable to get 100%RH as it will rain, so as the chamber drys out the RH will drop and the spray is activated and RH goes up again.

Its just an idea to automate the volume of spray to the plants needs. I dont think NASA's setup needs this as fatman tells me its always spraying the ideal amount constantly.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 3, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Fatman, Essex,
> 
> Wouldn't the micron size of the RH liquid particles fall well below 50 microns making it a fogger unit? I understand these foggers may do well for seedlings and clones but have little effect on veg or bloom growth. Relative humidity (percentage of water vapour transported by a volume of air) equals RH. At 100% RH you essentially would have a fogger.
> 
> ...


I do not know if mist is seen as over saturation by a RH device. Are you assuming 19 micron fog in air is humidity and 21 micro mist in air is seen as over 100% humidity irregardless of the volume of mist in the air. Air can carry moisture at levels above 100% humidity without it raining (oversaturation). Like I said though I use many electronic measuring devices but I have liitle understanding of most electronic circuitry. 110 volt AC and up I am fine with. Electronic circuitry as in circuit boards etc. though is not my field at all.


----------



## Essex (May 3, 2010)

So what is ya field fatman, just out of interest? I was an electrician and a mechanic for good few years each.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 3, 2010)

I have a PhD in Environmental Engineering a Masters degree and a handful of Bachelos degrees. I teach upper devison courses in Environmental Engineering, aquatic and carbonate chemistry, plus a few under graduate courses occasionally. I keep reef aquariums (since 1972) and have been commercially propogating corals since 1989. Living where I live I have needed to in a lot of ways become a jack of all trades. I love chemistry but the police prefer that I not practice in that field. I like organic chemistry which happens to cover alkaloid chemistry. IE I can synthesis any commonly used street drug. I started smoking pot in 1960 and have been growing mj indoors under lights since 1974.


----------



## Essex (May 3, 2010)

I was looking into carbon based chems myself! but it will have to wait as a carbon filter wont sort "them" smells and an ozone generator would just be dangerous, lol

I have been testing glass making a bit lately, just with soda glass but its a start.

Im only 28 but its a tempting field to get into.

I aint got a single qualification ever left school at 14! but still manage to make anything I ever need


----------



## clydefrog (May 3, 2010)

Essex said:


> Because bigger is better, lol. na really coz most 5-50 micron spray nozzles I found work with 1000PSI for misting people to keep em cool, seems a fairly everyday item so the spray nozzles are cheap and easly replaceable.
> 
> Storage vessel, is just a medical grade NOS bottle that I had the pleasure to empty into my lungs. cost free from m8, am going to see if it has a coating inside else I might teflon coat as I heard this to be good protection?
> 
> ...


your power consumption with that pressure washer is going to be quite a bit higher than any of our small pumps.

besides dude...where did you find a silent pressure washer? i gots one and i gotta say...mine is butt loud. like mile away loud.
and how close are you going to be able to get those nozzles to your roots before the velocity starts doing damage? have you tested out the machine with just one of your nozzles?
and wont that rapid pressure release super cool your nutrient solution?

its an interesting idea tho.


----------



## Essex (May 3, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> your power consumption with that pressure washer is going to be quite a bit higher than any of our small pumps.
> 
> besides dude...where did you find a silent pressure washer? i gots one and i gotta say...mine is butt loud. like mile away loud.
> and how close are you going to be able to get those nozzles to your roots before the velocity starts doing damage? have you tested out the machine with just one of your nozzles?
> ...



1600w / 60min X 3.5min = 93.3w X 2(12 hours)=186w total power for 24 hours
12p = 1kwh (my electric rate)
1000wh/12p=83w per 1p
186w use in 24h/83w per 1p= 2.24p a day

2.24p a day aint a lot?
95p a day for 1 600w HPS on 12 hours

It should run for more than 12 hours and will take 2 loud songs to cover all noise in a day (inside a soundproofed box aswell)

I doupt a 50 micron drop of water is going to cary much power at any pressure? (fatman?)

the nutrient solution tank will be temperature controled and insulated.

I havent built it yet, the planing on this is important so I dont waste hundeds of pounds on items that need replacing because they arnt right.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 4, 2010)

Awfully small mass to carry much punch. Force = mass * acceleration 
50 micron = 0.000164 ft in diameter, sphere Volume = (4/3)*pi*(D/2)^3 so, V=(4/3)*pi*(0.000164/2)^3 = 1.848* 10^-11 ft^3, therefore (1.848* 10^-11 ft^3)*(gallon/0.1337 ft^3)*((8.35 lb/gallon)= 1.1530*10^-9 lb per droplet (1.1530*10^-9 lb)*(453592.37 mg / lb)= 0.000523 mg. Even a small rain drop (200 microns) only weighs 0.0026 mg. Just how much of a punch could one expect. Number of 50 micron droplets if 10 ml is sprayed per second: 10 ml = 0.0003531 cubic feet , so (0.0003531/0.00000000001848 ) = 19,107,143 droplets in one second.


----------



## clydefrog (May 4, 2010)

Essex said:


> 1600w / 60min X 3.5min = 93.3w X 2(12 hours)=186w total power for 24 hours
> 12p = 1kwh (my electric rate)
> 1000wh/12p=83w per 1p
> 186w use in 24h/83w per 1p= 2.24p a day
> ...


do you mean it will only kick on twice a day? 

i didn't mean spend a ton of money...i just thought you might have a way to rig up a 50 micron nozzle to your existing washer wand. if there's a way i would check it out if i were you.

i'm still learning hp aero, but i'm an old hand with a pressure washer and even the finest spray nozzle i have will tear wood up like there's no tomorrow. granted my machine puts out 3500 psi instead of 1500...but still. 1500 is a hell of a lot more pressure than 100 psi. i realize that 50 microns is small, but if you've ever been in a boat going about 40 mph through fog...even small droplets can do damage at the right velocity.


----------



## Essex (May 4, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Awfully small mass to carry much punch. Force = mass * acceleration
> 50 micron = 0.000164 ft in diameter, sphere Volume = (4/3)*pi*(D/2)^3 so, V=(4/3)*pi*(0.000164/2)^3 = 1.848* 10^-11 ft^3, therefore (1.848* 10^-11 ft^3)*(gallon/0.1337 ft^3)*((8.35 lb/gallon)= 1.1530*10^-9 lb per droplet (1.1530*10^-9 lb)*(453592.37 mg / lb)= 0.000523 mg. Even a small rain drop (200 microns) only weighs 0.0026 mg. Just how much of a punch could one expect. Number of 50 micron droplets if 10 ml is sprayed per second: 10 ml = 0.0003531 cubic feet , so (0.0003531/0.00000000001848 ) = 19,107,143 droplets in one second.


Dam m8, thats some math!

can see how ya "carbon" products would taste nice


----------



## Essex (May 4, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> do you mean it will only kick on twice a day?
> 
> i didn't mean spend a ton of money...i just thought you might have a way to rig up a 50 micron nozzle to your existing washer wand. if there's a way i would check it out if i were you.
> 
> i'm still learning hp aero, but i'm an old hand with a pressure washer and even the finest spray nozzle i have will tear wood up like there's no tomorrow. granted my machine puts out 3500 psi instead of 1500...but still. 1500 is a hell of a lot more pressure than 100 psi. i realize that 50 microns is small, but if you've ever been in a boat going about 40 mph through fog...even small droplets can do damage at the right velocity.


yep less that 2 times a day "on" time, to charge a header tank.

I wouldnt bother trying to "just rig it up to my washer wand" as ya couldnt control it properly.

A pressure washer nozzle is designed to rip stuff up, fatman covered the power well enough if ya can understand it! lol


----------



## Essex (May 4, 2010)

fatman, seeing as I have adopted ya as my personal tutor in all thing aero, lol (hope ya dont mind, just I trust ya opinion more than anyone else!)

Do I need R/O filltering? My tap water is 60ppm and 7.2ph, my kettle is 4 years old and has NO limescale or buildup whatsoever and the element is still shiny!

Am I ok without? im thinking its all good, if I allow the chlorine to evaparate and use a carbon filter for heavy metal?


----------



## clydefrog (May 4, 2010)

Essex said:


> yep less that 2 times a day "on" time, to charge a header tank.
> 
> I wouldnt bother trying to "just rig it up to my washer wand" as ya couldnt control it properly.
> 
> A pressure washer nozzle is designed to rip stuff up, fatman covered the power well enough if ya can understand it! lol



you might not be able to control it properly, but you could at least put your hand over it. you might find you would just have to have an overly large chamber to allow the particles to slow before contact with roots.

besides...wouldn't you have to use steel supply lines? i don't even think schedule 80 cpvc is rated for much more than 800 psi.

but look, like you said, the testing would only save you money in the long run...


----------



## Essex (May 4, 2010)

clydefrog said:


> you might not be able to control it properly, but you could at least put your hand over it. you might find you would just have to have an overly large chamber to allow the particles to slow before contact with roots.
> 
> besides...wouldn't you have to use steel supply lines? i don't even think schedule 80 cpvc is rated for much more than 800 psi.
> 
> but look, like you said, the testing would only save you money in the long run...


 The power behind my jetwash nozzle 360 liter per hour 6L/Min 100ml/sec in a 1cm2 spot is 10 times more than 10ml per sec in a 1m2 spray thats 1000 times bigger so ten-thousand times less power, the plant will be 70cm away from spray nozzle, the spray is spraying up against gravity at 50 microns, the terminal velocity I would have thought to be very slow.

Idea how small the particals are,






Steel suppy lines?? cost a bomb and pain, bendable plastic with 1000psi pressure $2.00 a foot with push fit connectors that are about $10 each.
http://cloudtops.com/fog_systems/high_pressure_push_lock_fittings_tubing.php

Understanding and researching your subject is more important than tests, tests should just be little tweaks like tuning spray time to ya plant


----------



## AeroTrek (May 4, 2010)

Where is Tree farmer? Haven't heard from him in a while. It is his thread afterall and I was wondering how he is doing with his latest grow.


----------



## clydefrog (May 6, 2010)

Essex said:


> Understanding and researching your subject is more important than tests, tests should just be little tweaks like tuning spray time to ya plant


thats true...have you researched the inside of your NoS tank? if its a typical steel cylinder like the ones we have in the states...its gonna rust pretty quickly.


----------



## Essex (May 6, 2010)

Its a medical grade one, so am unshore but will coat with teflon if it isnt already.


----------



## AeroTrek (May 7, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I do not know if mist is seen as over saturation by a RH device. Are you assuming 19 micron fog in air is humidity and 21 micro mist in air is seen as over 100% humidity irregardless of the volume of mist in the air. Air can carry moisture at levels above 100% humidity without it raining (oversaturation). Like I said though I use many electronic measuring devices but I have liitle understanding of most electronic circuitry. 110 volt AC and up I am fine with. Electronic circuitry as in circuit boards etc. though is not my field at all.


I've done a little reseach and found to maintain a chamber at 68 deg. F at 100% humidity you would have to constantly supply 105 deg. F nutrient temp. As soon as you go below 105 deg. F dew(rain) would result then you would be in the 21 micron and above range.


----------



## Essex (May 7, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> I've done a little reseach and found to maintain a chamber at 68 deg. F at 100% humidity you would have to constantly supply 105 deg. F nutrient temp. As soon as you go below 105 deg. F dew(rain) would result then you would be in the 21 micron and above range.


so a humidistat wont work, cycle timer it is then!


----------



## fatman7574 (May 7, 2010)

Ok, but why would I want to run a chamber at 68 degrees F. My grow room is at 94 to 98 degrees F so my chamber is at 94 to 98 degrees F. To lower the temp would just slow growth. There is no reason to lower my chamber temps below my room temps as that is lowering my efficiency. I would not think my nutrient temp would need to be higher than my chamber temp if it is at 94 to 96 degrees.

What is the 68 degrees all about? There is no need for cold chamber or root temps. Why would you suggest 68 degrees? Are you saying that all water droplets above 20 microns are considered rain if the droplet temps is below 105 degrees with an ambient air temp at 68 degrees. If so how about at a more reasonable chamber air temp of 95 degrees. I want to stay in the 30 to 50 micron range. Preferably 50 micron. Are you saying 50 micron droplets are always considered rain regardless of the air temp? If it came down to heating the nutrientwater I have np o problem with that, but I will not run cold chambers nor run small micron droplets. Too little efficiency.


----------



## Essex (May 7, 2010)

Essex said:


> fatman, seeing as I have adopted ya as my personal tutor in all thing aero, lol (hope ya dont mind, just I trust ya opinion more than anyone else!)
> 
> Do I need R/O filltering? My tap water is 60ppm and 7.2ph, my kettle is 4 years old and has NO limescale or buildup whatsoever and the element is still shiny!
> 
> Am I ok without? im thinking its all good, if I allow the chlorine to evaparate and use a carbon filter for heavy metal?


Any idea m8? plz, last question I promise!

also what about this idea?
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/328753-resonant-frequency-bud-production.html


----------



## fatman7574 (May 7, 2010)

Wow, 60 ppm. I know a few people in Arizona who's water coming *out* of their RO filters at over 60 ppm. Their inputs are over 1250 ppm. The ocean has a true TDS of about 3500 ppm as an average.

I would surely not much worry about a TDS/ppm of 60. The ideal range for drinking water is considered a EC meter measuring of TDS 50 ppm or below. You would likely find that what little there is in your water is likely is a safe mixture of a little soluble calcium, mosting bicarbonate, a little carbonate, some magnesiun, sulfur and manganese. A water treatment plant using your water would just run it through a sand filter and inject some chlorine. The only potential problem would be high naturally occuring Florine, but that is nearly always only an issue in a few areas that are very arid. Southern California, parts of Indi, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Africa.


----------



## AeroTrek (May 7, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> I've done a little reseach and found to maintain a chamber at 68 deg. F at 100% humidity you would have to constantly supply 105 deg. F nutrient temp. As soon as you go below 105 deg. F dew(rain) would result then you would be in the 21 micron and above range.


 
Fatman,
&#12288;
I revised the numbers to better reflect your conditions. I don't no your chamber size so I used 4' L x 4' W x 2' H for 32 cu.ft to be humidified ft/hr at 100% RH. The room temp at 95°F and chamber temp to be 95°F. With the system on time at 100% you would require a flow of 0.007gph. Due to evaporative cooling the air in the chamber should be approximately 189°F in order to maintain the desired chamber temperature of 95°F (this can only be done by supplying the nutes at that temp.). I think regardless of the micron drop size you would cook your roots at that temperature. The reason I choose 68°F was simply to simulate outdoor comfort conditions of 72°F and soil temps being a little cooler ~ 68°F. I hope this helps with the reason why I believe humidifying is not the way to go.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> Fatman,
> &#12288;
> I revised the numbers to better reflect your conditions. I don't no your chamber size so I used 4' L x 4' W x 2' H for 32 cu.ft to be humidified ft/hr at 100% RH. The room temp at 95°F and chamber temp to be 95°F. With the system on time at 100% you would require a flow of 0.007gph. Due to evaporative cooling the air in the chamber should be approximately 189°F in order to maintain the desired chamber temperature of 95°F (this can only be done by supplying the nutes at that temp.). I think regardless of the micron drop size you would cook your roots at that temperature. The reason I choose 68°F was simply to simulate outdoor comfort conditions of 72°F and soil temps being a little cooler ~ 68°F. I hope this helps with the reason why I believe humidifying is not the way to go.
> 
> Where are you getting this data. Do you have a equation used to derive these temps etc.


Where are you getting this data. Do you have an equation used to derive these temps etc. I have no idea what theorey this could possibly be derived from. Are you basing this upon some formulas related to evaporative cooling of a room by a swamp cooler. The numbers are insane. A 95 degree chamber in a 95 degree room with only a few ml per minute of 95 degree water sprayed into the chambers is not going to cool. This is basically a closed sytem with only air and water being sprayed in, and very little of each. If the water, air, chamber and roots are all the same temp what is going to drive a reaction such as the heat transfer or heat removal. If there is a loss from the system it is going to be a loss of 95 degree moist air into a less moist environment but still at 95 degrees. The temp of the air and water that enter and exit the system will be the same. Heat goes from hot to cold. There is no temp difference so no heat is transferred.

Lets assume there are small cracks around plant net pots and around holes where nozzles are inserted from out side the chambers as well as a small drain pipe. We will spray in a small amount of 95 degree water 50 micron droplets with 95 degree air. This will be sprayed into a 95 degree chamber containing 95 degree roots and 95 degree moist air and 95 degree 50 micron water droplets. The roots will take in some of the water droplets. This will not affect the temps. Some moist air will leak out during each spraying and less so when no spraying is going on. This will not cause a temp change as the water and air will enter and exit the chambers at the same temp. It will increase moisture/humidity outside the chambers but that is not the issue. Please explain just what your data is saying in relation to these parameters. Why do you think I would need to add hotter water to maintain a temp if no evaporative cooling is going on. There is no forced and very little natural ventilation or air movement going on as the chamber is as close as possible to being fully enclosed.

For ease figure a 1 cubic meter chamber. The maximum air volume sprayed will be about 0.043 cubic meters per minute. Spraying an average of 1 second per minute means (0.046/60) = 0.000076667 cubic yards per minute. That means it will take (1/0.00007667)= 13043 minutes for the sprayed airs to in and of itself cause a complete air exchange in the chamber. How much heat exchange, evaporative orother wise will take place under those conditions.


----------



## Essex (May 8, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Wow, 60 ppm. I know a few people in Arizona who's water coming *out* of their RO filters at over 60 ppm. Their inputs are over 1250 ppm. The ocean has a true TDS of about 3500 ppm as an average.
> 
> I would surely not much worry about a TDS/ppm of 60. The ideal range for drinking water is considered a EC meter measuring of TDS 50 ppm or below. You would likely find that what little there is in your water is likely is a safe mixture of a little soluble calcium, mosting bicarbonate, a little carbonate, some magnesiun, sulfur and manganese. A water treatment plant using your water would just run it through a sand filter and inject some chlorine. The only potential problem would be high naturally occuring Florine, but that is nearly always only an issue in a few areas that are very arid. Southern California, parts of Indi, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Africa.


Cool, doupt ill have Florine then im in rainy old England. This area the water is brilliant, kettles last 4 eva.

Thanks for all your help man! I would have struggled without ya brain, hope ya pleased with what I finaly build and I will give ya credit m8!


----------



## Essex (May 8, 2010)

I dont quite see what all this temperature chat is all about?

As I understand it ya just keep root zone at a ideal temp for plant growth?

I am just going to use a cycle timer as I know it will work, RH control can be attempted at a later date when I have more experience/data.


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 8, 2010)

been gone for a while... ive got some catching up to do.

been messing with a lot of different strains... one of them either has nute burn (but i doubt it because i lowered ppm's and problem still seems to be occuring) but more likely either cal-mag deficiency, or phos def. Im thinking its phos. The new leaves have no problems. But the tips, and all around the edges of the leaves that are about a week or so old, they are yellowing, and its getting worse. So im using AN sensi bloom 2 part right now. And im debating how to add the phos, because AN and all their boosters give PLENTY of Potasium, but the phos seems to be the runt of the pack, and I have no additives that only add phos. 

What do you guys think I could add to my sensi bloom mix to bring up my phos? THe part B of the mix is 1.6 6.1 5.7 and part a is like 4.3 0.0 3.2 or something. So even if i go crazy with part B, do you think it will overdo the K as well, and will that hurt the plant?

Im in hydro, medium psi sprayers and a bit of dwc. Thanks.


----------



## AeroTrek (May 8, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Where are you getting this data. Do you have an equation used to derive these temps etc. I have no idea what theorey this could possibly be derived from. Are you basing this upon some formulas related to evaporative cooling of a room by a swamp cooler. The numbers are insane. A 95 degree chamber in a 95 degree room with only a few ml per minute of 95 degree water sprayed into the chambers is not going to cool. This is basically a closed sytem with only air and water being sprayed in, and very little of each. If the water, air, chamber and roots are all the same temp what is going to drive a reaction such as the heat transfer or heat removal. If there is a loss from the system it is going to be a loss of 95 degree moist air into a less moist environment but still at 95 degrees. The temp of the air and water that enter and exit the system will be the same. Heat goes from hot to cold. There is no temp difference so no heat is transferred.
> 
> Lets assume there are small cracks around plant net pots and around holes where nozzles are inserted from out side the chambers as well as a small drain pipe. We will spray in a small amount of 95 degree water 50 micron droplets with 95 degree air. This will be sprayed into a 95 degree chamber containing 95 degree roots and 95 degree moist air and 95 degree 50 micron water droplets. The roots will take in some of the water droplets. This will not affect the temps. Some moist air will leak out during each spraying and less so when no spraying is going on. This will not cause a temp change as the water and air will enter and exit the chambers at the same temp. It will increase moisture/humidity outside the chambers but that is not the issue. Please explain just what your data is saying in relation to these parameters. Why do you think I would need to add hotter water to maintain a temp if no evaporative cooling is going on. There is no forced and very little natural ventilation or air movement going on as the chamber is as close as possible to being fully enclosed.
> 
> For ease figure a 1 cubic meter chamber. The maximum air volume sprayed will be about 0.043 cubic meters per minute. Spraying an average of 1 second per minute means (0.046/60) = 0.000076667 cubic yards per minute. That means it will take (1/0.00007667)= 13043 minutes for the sprayed airs to in and of itself cause a complete air exchange in the chamber. How much heat exchange, evaporative orother wise will take place under those conditions.


I thought as you at first....that this would be a good idea and thats why I looked into it a little further. I've been using the logic and calculator supplied buy a nozzle manufacturing company location in the U.S. I attached the link below...

http://www.ispray.com/application-humidification

...just enter the relevent data and keep proceeding to the next page. To get a summary of your numbers choose the siphon method nozzle, pick the first nozzle listed, used the default conditions supplied by the computer with the defaulted "25% nozzle safety factor". Remember these calculations were based on a 100% system "on" time.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

AeroTrek said:


> I thought as you at first....that this would be a good idea and thats why I looked into it a little further. I've been using the logic and calculator supplied buy a nozzle manufacturing company location in the U.S. I attached the link below...
> 
> http://www.ispray.com/application-humidification
> 
> ...just enter the relevent data and keep proceeding to the next page. To get a summary of your numbers choose the siphon method nozzle, pick the first nozzle listed, used the default conditions supplied by the computer with the defaulted "25% nozzle safety factor". Remember these calculations were based on a 100% system "on" time.


Definite flaw in the calculator design. It will not allow a calculation that is based upon any situation where there is not at least 1 complete air exchange per hour. Even so: Using 1 cubic meter chamber with a cosnstant 9% defree F temp and water at 95 degrees F with the spray being admnistered approx 1% of the time ie 0.6 seconds per minute it shows a nozzle rated at 51.4 gph spraying a total of 0.41 gph would maintian a relative humidity between 90% and 95% with no increase needed for a water temp. So say 20% of that value beacuse the air exchange would likey be less that 1/5 of an air exchange per hour. Therefore 0.082 gph or about 1.96 gallons per day. Based on home mixed fertilizers and RO warter costing 20 cents per gallon to produce, the nutrient cost would be 40.032 per day. Yes the fertilizer cost is only 3.2 cents per day. $5 worth of salts making a 100x fertilizer diluted to 300 to 1 so as to obtain a low enough TDS for use with HP or air atomized aero. The calculator stated 0.95 cf of air per at 40 psi. Gravity feed from 18" would drop those air needs down to about 0.43 cu feet and 15 psi. So a relative humidity controller would work quite well it seems but one would likely have to assure adquate air exchange of at least 1/10 of an air exchange per hour for the chamber. A few vent holes should easily accomplish that as there will be a positive pressure an time the nozzles spray and that air in and of itself will assure at least a 5% exchange. Then their is the floor drain. All seems do able.


----------



## Essex (May 8, 2010)

so it will work then..........

sounds better than a cycle timer, and will work at +/-3% at the 90-95% zone 

so all this temp stuff? what? lol

My header tank will be temp controled anyway, but I have to turn temp up or down and how will this affect growth?

I was also planing to have small air vents with water traps on each side of root chamber, just to have some fresh air in root zone.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

It is most efficient to just use water the same temp as your plants. Spraying the nutrients will assure the solution contains a saturation level of dissolved oxygen so low temp high DO reservoirwater is not needed. Keep the whole system the same temp if possible. The worse that could happen is you would need to run a low level of chlorine in you water to prevent bacteria, mold or mildew. None of us are presently running additional vents. Just the typical air leaks. I do maintain free (residual) chlorine levels of 0.5 ppm and use spray to waste. If the temps are all the samethere is no evaporative cooling so the results for air and b nutrient reqi uirements are the same regardless of whether the temps are all 75 , 85, or 95 or anywhere in between. It is when you have differing temps that water temps matter. A temperature balanced system means there is no need for evaporative cooling or heating required.


----------



## OregonMeds (May 8, 2010)

I don't understand your last couple lines there fatman, I was under the impression the temperature of plants, roots, leaves, nutrients, humidity level all will affect the growth rate, and therefore nutrient needs always seem to vary but you sound like you are saying it doesn't matter at all in this case? Just with hp aero then I guess? The do rate doesn't vary here so it doesn't matter or what?


I have to make sure I'm hearing you right or that I haven't picked up some wrong info in the past or what. And I still don't get why your roots don't just rot all the time with high temps and ideal conditions practically, you just don't air out tap water and get enough chlorine so that's not an issue or why is root rot not a problem?

All this talk of 95 degree nutrient solution sounds insane like it's impossible that would work.
Makes me think you're just pulling peoples legs.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Plants grow most efficiently at higher temps as along as all needs are provided in sufficient quantities. IE you can not grow efficiently at high temps with inadequate lighting, inadequate CO2, inadequate water or nutrients. The reason low temps for a reservoirs water is recommended is to provide water with a higher DO so as to hopefully, with poorly designed systems, provide adequate levels of high DO water to the roots and therefore prevent root death and areas of zero or very low DO that cause bacterial multiplication of oxygen hating bacteria that would cause increased root death and spreading of the root rot. This is not an issue with HP or air atomized aero where the roots are always receiving water saturated with Oxygen due to the finely atomized spray. Roots die when they do not receive adequate amounts of contact with water with adequate DO. With most systems very little water comes into contact with the roots in the middle of the root bundles. What little water reaches the roots in the center is almost stripped or is already stripped of DO. This causes root death. Root death and bacteria combined means rapid putrefaction/rot. Chlorine prevents nearly all the bacteria from being present and what is still present does not multiply well. This means the dead roots do not quickly putrefy/rot, but still die ue to a lack of DO. At a slower rate though as bacteria are not feeding on the dead roots and dieing roots. Roots simply take up nutrients more efficiently at higher temps. 

Plants transpire more at higher temps, as long as you keep the humidity down, so the roots take up more water that can carry more nutrients than a smaller volume of water. Simple. There are many old, tired, myths circulated about the need for low reservoir temps that are usually largely based upon say 64 degrees f water containing more DO then 86 degree water (21% more) that really does not matter. The problem is not that the water holds too little DO, it is that the water is not circulating well through large masses of roots. Regardless of where the water has 9,4 ppm or 7.4 ppm of DO, if the water is only reaching thew inner roots at in very small amounts they will still not receive adequate DO. That is not the case with roots hanging in air that are sprayed or with a DWC system with heavy water circulation that keeps plenty of water with high DO contacting ALL the roots because the root masses are being moved ans separated by strong water currents. This is not the case with typical DWC, small tube aero, or NTF systems. Because of this those systems have greater incidence of root rot even with low temp high DO reservoir water. IE some myths die hard even when there is no sound basis for their existence.


----------



## OregonMeds (May 8, 2010)

Ok still shaking my head, I tend to believe you but that doesn't explain why my plants died a while back in dwc with inadequate cooling before they even had a chance to grow enough roots to cut off DO from parts. I was throwing a lot of air, enough to stir the water well, and they just flat died anyway because the stupid air pump raised my water temp to nearly what you are talking about.

So you are saying that would have actually been ok had I only had a little chlorine in there and not aired out my water?

If you are relying on tap water chlorine in a dwc system that stuff will evaporate off quick right? You'd have to add pool chlorine?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 8, 2010)

Tap water chlorinelevels are typically only adequate for 24 hours. Then you need to add more. Water temps should not be higher than the palnt temperatures unless you have a humidity below about 35% to 40%. A lot of the drive behing transportation is the differece in the palnts salt concentration in the plants fluids and the nutrient water ppm. However a temperature difference can also be a large driving forcebehing water transport. If the palnats are not at a high nutrient uptakesatgethen they are dependent n more of a slight temperature difference to cause water up talke and a low humidity. Most peple have enoughtemperature difference at the plant canopy due to intense lighting to lalow for enough twater up take and therefore transporation. Having roots in water dos not mean they are up taking water. Without water uptake there is no oxygen uptake. Clones and seedlings are often under domes beacuse there lack of roots or minimiml roots nean they can not supply enough DO to bioth the roots and the lants for both to grow plus provide cooling through transporation water evaporation. The domes lower the water needs for the plant. seedlings and clones are usually kept in cooler room air thanwater temp.


----------



## AeroTrek (May 8, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Definite flaw in the calculator design. It will not allow a calculation that is based upon any situation where there is not at least 1 complete air exchange per hour. Even so: Using 1 cubic meter chamber with a cosnstant 9% defree F temp and water at 95 degrees F with the spray being admnistered approx 1% of the time ie 0.6 seconds per minute it shows a nozzle rated at 51.4 gph spraying a total of 0.41 gph would maintian a relative humidity between 90% and 95% with no increase needed for a water temp. So say 20% of that value beacuse the air exchange would likey be less that 1/5 of an air exchange per hour. Therefore 0.082 gph or about 1.96 gallons per day. Based on home mixed fertilizers and RO warter costing 20 cents per gallon to produce, the nutrient cost would be 40.032 per day. Yes the fertilizer cost is only 3.2 cents per day. $5 worth of salts making a 100x fertilizer diluted to 300 to 1 so as to obtain a low enough TDS for use with HP or air atomized aero. The calculator stated 0.95 cf of air per at 40 psi. Gravity feed from 18" would drop those air needs down to about 0.43 cu feet and 15 psi. So a relative humidity controller would work quite well it seems but one would likely have to assure adquate air exchange of at least 1/10 of an air exchange per hour for the chamber. A few vent holes should easily accomplish that as there will be a positive pressure an time the nozzles spray and that air in and of itself will assure at least a 5% exchange. Then their is the floor drain. All seems do able.


Fatman,
It would definitely be a great way to control the nutrient feed in the root chamber assuming the drop size is within the acceptable range. I would test the system in an empty chamber before attempting a grow with it. It's been a long time since my thermal dynamic classes but something here is not adding up. Even with the numbers your using I still get a temp of 120 deg.F. I agree with you, the air exchange would be the air/water mixture going into the chamber and that would have to displace the equal amount to the atmosphere. The calculator only allows a minimum air exchange rate of 0.5 cu.m/hr for a cubic meter chamber...therefore this would be the volume of air/water mixture allowed into the chamber per/hr. Would any less or any more affect the RH and temps were looking for, I don't know.
It's something to look into for the future, but for right now I'll try a basic air assisted atomizing system and work out the kinks there. I won't be going as far as timing using a infrared sensor but it's feasible if you mount it vertically in the chamber instead of horizontally where the roots may interfere with the device. Thanks again for your input into the subject.


----------



## Jimmy Luffnan (May 9, 2010)

I have a picture here that you can reopen and draw lines where the parts need to be as I'm a little confused 

Also if you can post links to where the solenoid and cutoff switches can be bought that would be equally excellent! 

Cheers Jimmy.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

The calculator is flawed. It will accept yu punching in 0.5 air exchanges per hour but it then syas 1 per hour and calculates at 1 per hour. Punch in system running 100% with a 0.5 m^3 chamber exchange. IE it will say 1 exchange not 0.5%, Enter 95% to 100% humidity change desired with both temps at 95 degrees F. This calculator indicates there will always be a evaporative cooling effect as long as your increasing the humidity. It will not allow a decrease in humidity it will just say no morehumidity needed. That is a flaw. It is implying that there would be 9 degrees of evapoartive cooling with the nozzle at a minimum. It sells nozzles for evavporative cooling. The calculators is set up to provide conditions for conductive cooling. It implis that evaporative cooling will lawtys occur. The only way this can happen is if the air circulated through (sprayed into)the chamber is at a lower humidity so that it takes up humidity and thermal energy from the warmer water and exhausts it out side the chamber. How this miracle would happen is beyond me as the air entering the chamber is at a higher humidity and the same temp. The only possible way thermal energy is being lost is if the air leaving the chamber was in fact lower in humidity as the plants took up water. However if you try to punch in a desired chamber temperature that is lower than the starting temp as it alledges due to thermal energy transferred to out going air it simply shuts down and says no more humidity needed. It tales a tremendous amount of air to get 9 degree evaporative cooling. There is just not that much air noiving through the chamber.


----------



## Essex (May 9, 2010)

Jimmy Luffnan said:


> I have a picture here that you can reopen and draw lines where the parts need to be as I'm a little confused
> 
> Also if you can post links to where the solenoid and cutoff switches can be bought that would be equally excellent!
> 
> Cheers Jimmy.


My idea is still on the drawing board, but I will do a complete "how to" and full grow journal using cheap parts with links when im done, in few months


----------



## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

Jimmy Luffnan said:


> I have a picture here that you can reopen and draw lines where the parts need to be as I'm a little confused
> 
> Also if you can post links to where the solenoid and cutoff switches can be bought that would be equally excellent!
> 
> Cheers Jimmy.


I did not show the solenoid. It would be in between the ball valve and the nozzles. The valves. pressure swiiches and solenoid would all be avilable from eBay.


----------



## OregonMeds (May 9, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> Tap water chlorinelevels are typically only adequate for 24 hours. Then you need to add more. Water temps should not be higher than the palnt temperatures unless you have a humidity below about 35% to 40%. A lot of the drive behing transportation is the differece in the palnts salt concentration in the plants fluids and the nutrient water ppm. However a temperature difference can also be a large driving forcebehing water transport. If the palnats are not at a high nutrient uptakesatgethen they are dependent n more of a slight temperature difference to cause water up talke and a low humidity. Most peple have enoughtemperature difference at the plant canopy due to intense lighting to lalow for enough twater up take and therefore transporation. Having roots in water dos not mean they are up taking water. Without water uptake there is no oxygen uptake. Clones and seedlings are often under domes beacuse there lack of roots or minimiml roots nean they can not supply enough DO to bioth the roots and the lants for both to grow plus provide cooling through transporation water evaporation. The domes lower the water needs for the plant. seedlings and clones are usually kept in cooler room air thanwater temp.


People would flat die to see a successful 95 degree dwc grow. No they'd shit themselves... No they'd shit themselves and then die.

Ok then this brings up a related question, through another recent failure (I mean learning experience) I became painfully aware of lumen shock. For some reason it just didn't come to mind I would have to work a plant up to the light I was trying to throw at it like you do when hardening plants off to going outside etc, they already were full plants not just clones at that point and had been given what would have been enough of a switch when I ran just 1k but it must have been too big of a gap when I tried to go over 1k. I thought I eased them into it enough just with the lights higher the first day or so like usual but nooo.

How would that relate to say taking a couple clones from my normal temp cloner system after they are more than fully rooted and seeing how they like the hot and steamy dip? Should I ramp the temp up over a series of days or what can a person really expect to get away with? And day night temp swings, would I need to add a heater in the water to keep it closer? What range?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

Yes palnts can experience lighting intensity shock. Plants, even those acclimated to intense lighting can be supplied too much lighting. That is seldom an issue however. 

In reagrd to a sudden ambient temperature change. The effect would also dependent on the lighting intensity. At a low lighting intensity the rise in temp would mean possibly more transpiration, depending on the humidity. This would mean more nutrient uptake. This can lead to nitroen burn or more likely a stretched plants height. If I am worried about the lighting intensity change and can not alter the light bulb distance of the new intense lighting I put a three layers of fiber glass screen between the tender plants and the lights and remove a layer every few days. In most cases the issue is the heat of intense lighting rather then thr catual amount of PAR or Lumens. 

Here is an interesting university article you might like. There is a pull down window with different articles but the site is still bing develpoed so not all links contain material yet. http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/Courses/hort494/greenhouse/lighting/light.html


----------



## OregonMeds (May 9, 2010)

Hmmm ok, I'm about to tempt fate again then, but I'm not doing any indoor with insane light right now or flowering at all anyway I'm just keeping a couple moms and I can put some test plants in with them, and they can go for a while that way. 

I'm not able to supplement co2 there though, and complete air exchange with outside is easy to keep co2 high as possible but that would throw off temps if I exchange too much and I can't be screwing the moms over. Well then again my indoor co2 levels would be higher than outdoor without a bunch of plants eating more than we put out right?


----------



## Essex (May 9, 2010)

I have just mixed some organic nute tea and was wondering if ya clever ppl mind lookin and seeing if it looks ok?
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/329304-essexs-home-brewed-wilkinsons-100-a.html


----------



## Jimmy Luffnan (May 9, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> I did not show the solenoid. It would be in between the ball valve and the nozzles. The valves. pressure switches and solenoid would all be available from eBay.


Thank you very much for that fatman! It is greatly appreciated =D

I take it that the ball valves are used to adjust pressure.

Thanks again!

Jimmy.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

No just to close off flows for amintenance purposes. There is a pressure regulator on the exit from the tank by the pressure gauge to control the pressure to the nozzles. Typically for an application such as this the regulator woould be adjustable to anywhere from zero psi to 150 psi. Most people for safety sake also installa pressure relief valve at the pumps exit. This assures tat the tank does not afil if the pump does not shut off.


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 9, 2010)

if i remember right, fatman had a little equation for adding bleach. was it a table spoon of bleach per 55 gallons per 3 days? correct me if im off fatman, thanks

what fatman is saying is.... the more important part to the equation is the difference in temp between the plants air, and the root water. WHen you get a 15 degree swing or more... the temp difference screws with the plants uptake of nutes. He can give the scientific reasons why.

Hes also saying that if spray is occuring, the waters DO is maximized in the instant before the water droplets hit the roots, as they are floating around your root chamber.

The only thing i have noticed helps... is if you have a closed room, and pretty air tight chambers... and are running co2 in the room.... it helps if you put an air stone in each chamber, and have a compressor pushing air in from outside the room, that is oxygen rich, into only the root chambers... otherwise where are the water droplets going to get their o2? and how much co2 are they going to be saturated with?... too much obviously.

so that being the case, if you keep the chambers pressurized with 02 rich air, the c02 has a hard time of making it back in the chamber because no air is entering the chamber.

One can argue if this helps or doesnt help.... but i use the old fashioned, "try it on some of your plants, and leave others alone, and see if theres a difference" and there definately is, plants that have it look healthier within a day. I think its getting rid of the rich concentrations of c02 in the chamber that is the bigger factor, because thats toxic to the roots i think, and hurts plants.

Cant get rid of co2 unless you replace it with something else... and why not replace it with o2 if the roots need it? just common sense if you ask me.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 9, 2010)

Good work Grass Hopper. I knew that some day if I just remembered that Karate Kid quote I would get to finally repeat it.

Good link on horticultural water disinfection.
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkwFQO.dLR8UAsgBXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEya21nbjM0BHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDNgRjb2xvA3NrMQR2dGlkA0g0NjVfNzk-/SIG=12dllar4v/EXP=1273531600/**http%3a//ghex.colostate.edu/pdf_files/DisinfectingWater.pdf


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 9, 2010)

read the whole thing...

im not smart enough to figure out the dosage needed tho?

I assume you were referring to me as the one who was correct with the bleach... tablespoon per 55gal per 3 days?

only thing that worries me is im using all these expensive nutes that have beneficial bacteria etc, and the chlorine kills them.

But, right now on the bottom of my roots, im starting to get rot.

I havent tried b52, or any of the other so called root rot solvers.

Anyone have any non bleach, successful additive to use?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 10, 2010)

Anthing that is oing to disinfect is going to kill both "beneficial" and non beneficial bacteria and enzymes. That is why with chemical nutrients that really do not gain through the use of enzymes and "beneficial bacteria" of which there are none it is common to run a sterile system. The supplements are chiefly to make organic fertilizers more available to uptake by plant roots. Using them to control root rot is quite a long shot and is seldom effective. The theory is that the enzymes win in the cmpetion for food so therefore there are less bateria multiplying and feeding on the roots. The manfacturers alledge som un spokem miracle. Both the enzymes and the bacteria accomplish the same thing, vconverting dead roots into a nitrogen usable by the plant. Enzymes allededly do so quicker than the bacteria. Root rot is putreffied dead roots. The roots after death but before putrfying are attacked by both enzymes and bacteria. They are already dead. The bacteria causes putrefication. Then other bacteria use the putrefying roots as foo and convert the roots to nitrite, then another bacteria convert the nitrite to nitrate fertilizer. This is the natural process of "ORGaNIC NUTRIENTS". Enzymes convert the dead roots to ammonium nitrogen in a single step process rather than to nitrate in a three step process. 
In a chemical nutrient solution without all the bacteria and enzymes the dead roots just decompose and become dissolved and particulate organic matter. The bacteria that are everywhere in air, water and soil, will find the organics and feed on them, but only if there is no chlorine present to prevent their populating the reservoir to start the feeding process.


----------



## Jimmy Luffnan (May 10, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> No just to close off flows for maintenance purposes. There is a pressure regulator on the exit from the tank by the pressure gauge to control the pressure to the nozzles. Typically for an application such as this the regulator would be adjustable to anywhere from zero psi to 150 psi. Most people for safety sake also install a pressure relief valve at the pumps exit. This assures tat the tank does not fill if the pump does not shut off.


Haha.. yeah sorry! I realized that after I posted, that the pressure regulator handles everything just like a FPR in a car's fuel system.
Thanks again!

Jimmy


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 10, 2010)

fatman, so advanced nutrients "chilating" or whatever the word they use, shilates? how do those get affected by the chlorine?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 10, 2010)

The Chelates are man made and are considered organic carriers. They are made of chemicals but as they are mainly a carbon hydrogen chain compound they are defined as organic chemical compounds. They protect the metals from being oxidized and therefore assure their availability for plant root uptake. It is very hard to oxidize iron when it is chelated. It requires very large concentrations of chlorine and long contact times.


----------



## AeroTrek (May 10, 2010)

Laymans term "rust proofing".


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 11, 2010)

so chlorine has no adverse affects on advanced nutes of any kind?


----------



## Treeth (May 11, 2010)

Yeah Fatman, so just how is it possible to keep any free chlorine ppm's, hypochlorites, chlorates,-or whatever quantum probability decides, available in the presence of our nutrient salts and buffers in solution... when these compounds are looking to oxidize? 

Is free chlorine sanitation really only applicable while working with low ec nutrient solutions and in a run to waste, unbuffered, set up?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 11, 2010)

Chloride is not really a very strong oxidant. It rakes only smallamounts for it tooxidize some organics but it is not so reactive with inorganics as that are not a slew of sacrificial hydrogens shouting out pick me as with the organics. Dumb little sacrificial turds. The cj hlorine exists in water as either the hypochlorite ion (OCL-) or as hydrochlorous acid (HOCl) As our hydropomic nutrients are low pH the Chlorine is mostly in the Hydrochlorous state, It has about a 40 to 80 times better killing rate than the hypochlorite. The hypochlorous acid simply relaces a H+ proton with organics. Organics are chiefly made up of weakly held H+ protons making them easily oxidized. For example. hypochlorous acid + ammomia. NH3 + HOCL becomes NH2Cl (monochloramine) + H2O. It does not react withh Nitrate, sulfates in general, or other inorganic salts used in nutrients. Calcium carbonate is tured back into soluble calcium by the acids in the ammonia reaction with hydrochloric acid. But most of us do not use high ammonium fertilizers and we have nutrient mixes made with monopotassium phosphate that protect the ammonium and prevent it from being turned into a gas.

So in a nut shell at low doses chlorine will have no real effect on any of the inorganic nutrients. At high levels there will be a bit of loss of buffering by bicarbonates in you nutrients thereby possibly causing a slight drop in pH, but that is with much higher concentratons of chlorine.


----------



## Essex (May 11, 2010)

I love this thread


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 11, 2010)

well, knowing what i know, i kind of bounce back and forth from the fatman chlorine usage, and then beneficial enzymes and bacteria. WHen i encounter root rot, or some unforseen problem, i start running chlorine again. Once the problem is gone, i go back to using GREAT WHITE, and other beneficial bacteria for roots, about 3 days after i added the chlorine, and keep adding the beneficial bacteria from time to time. If a problem starts up again, i go back to a tablespoon of chlorine (bleach) per 55gal, and add that every 3 days, for about 9 days, so 3 total times. That usually solves all the problems... honestly, they are gone in the first 3 days after the first tablespoon, but i go 9 days to be safe. 

I was just worried that i needed to flush my water afterwards because the chlorine was hurting the basic primary nutes... but apparently, im good to go.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 11, 2010)

Clorine is dissipated as a gas pretty quickly if you have aero mist or aeration of any sort.


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 11, 2010)

how does chlorine affect anything like B-52 (vitamins), or bud ignitor, or thrive alive (hormones)?


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 12, 2010)

a bit of a topic change... any advice on how to "dial in" proper on/off times for 30psi mp aero? Im not so much interested in math eaquations as i am, what do i need to observe on the roots? Before the next spray, should roots have any evidence of water drops on them still? I was doing short spray cycles, but it seemed as tho my roots remained dry and my plants were suffering. RIght now, im doing 30 sec on, and about 1.5 min off. I know this is WAY longer than what anyone suggests, but i wasnt getting any explosive root growth doing it the other way... so im obviously doing something wrong. Plants are in flower. Grew up in ez clone sprayer enviroment. Roots are about 2 foot long, touch the bottom of the chamber. About the diameter of a silver dollar, all the way down. No fuzzing or bushing out as of yet.

Perhaps my off times were too long before as i never did less than 1 minute? should i do 30 sec off, and a few sec on? Being MP, it seems the mist falls to the floor of the chamber relatively quickly.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 12, 2010)

Are you using sprayer heads or mister heads. Sprayer heads are putting out a more varied droplet size than a mister head and a much greater volume. That means it is closer to the low pressure aero but with the roots out of water maeaning reoot rot is not a hugh issue. The long roots are primary roots, the shorter roots that grow out from them are lateral roots. The realy small, very short roots that grow out from these are the hair roots. Typically, if you have few lateral roots you are over watering when spraying. If you have a good proportion of lateral roots but few hair roots you are spraying too often but not really necessarily an excessive amount when you spray. 

I would try 5 seconds on and 25 to 30 seconds on, then work out to longer periods off between 5 second sprays. Are you growing trees? The point is that the roots should take up nutrient water instantly upon contcat with the atomized nutrient water. Idealy this means that no water actually ever accumulates on the plants or the net pots etc. at a level that would appear as standing water as in big droplets. We are actually shooting for what is high end fog range to low end mist so 50 to 75 micron, but we end up with droplets also down into the 30 to 50 micron range also (these allow for longer breaks between sprays but thend to produce excessive hair roots). With misters used with medium pressure we typically get more like 50 to 100 micron. The large droplets are readily seen and yes they quickly fall from the air. The fog remains suspended in the air for long periods of time allowing for a longer time between sprays. However it tends to cause an overabundance of hair roots. This thread is more about very quick efficient growth the large trees in reality so that tends to mean minimal primary roots, a very large amount of lateral roots covered with a hugh amount of hair roots. This however tends to bonzai plants and shorten the internodal space so much it can look almost like the branches are almost on top of each other. Great for SOG's but it requires a lot more experimentation on cyclic timing to allow for trees as palnts given a choice always strive for fast maturity and reproduction not yield to the grower (height). Can you imagine how quickly a Ruderalis would bud in a HP or air atomized aero.


----------



## Jimmy Luffnan (May 12, 2010)

Thanks for the above info Fatman,
I was actually curious about the root structure in HP aero, especially the root lengths. I actually do my plants vertically so it helps to work out what distance I need each plant above each other.
Im actually a part time ruderalis (auto) breeder and have gotten one of my plants to produce more lateral roots that are quite heavily covered in hairs compared to the other ruderalis by using LP aero and changing one of the misters below it.

I will try and take a photo tomorrow after work.

Also I'm wondering, 

*Based on the above said, will HP aero actually decrease or increase my final yield if only used for flowering period?

*Will HP aero plants require flushing at the end if using low E.C organic nutrients throughout the flowering period?

Jimmy.


----------



## hydroboy27 (May 12, 2010)

im sure its been covered a zillion times, but i know as people gain experience their opinions change...

whats the best timer for this kind of stuff? I have capart timers. Im afraid off times dont get that short, could be wrong.


----------



## Jimmy Luffnan (May 12, 2010)

hydroboy27 said:


> im sure its been covered a zillion times, but i know as people gain experience their opinions change...
> 
> whats the best timer for this kind of stuff? I have capart timers. I'm afraid off times don't get that short, could be wrong.


Id say for LP/MP aero c.a.p timers are probably the most commonly used.

But if you have a look at the diagram on page 111 of this thread, Fatman has drawn the way a HP aero is setup and the component order if it helps.

The time cycle is controlled by a solenoid.

I'm actually at this very moment trying to find a solenoid to do this that can be adjusted if anybody can supply a link to one (preferably cheeeep! =P) and also is 3/8" if possible?

Pretty please? hehe


----------



## fatman7574 (May 12, 2010)

Jimmy Luffnan said:


> Thanks for the above info Fatman,
> I was actually curious about the root structure in HP aero, especially the root lengths. I actually do my pants vertically so it helps to work out what distance I need each plant above each other.
> Im actually a part time ruderalis (auto) breeder and have gotten one of my plants to produce more lateral roots that are quite heavily covered in hairs compared to the other ruderalis by using LP aero and changing one of the misters below it.
> 
> ...


 
There will likely not be an appreciable increase in yield but instead a shortening of time required for the budding cycle. Doing the full grow with HP aero where you have a very high proportion of hair roots would actually likely lessen the overall yield as the plants will be much shorter. however they will grow much faster and the bud quality will be higher as the buds will be fatter and thicker as the internodal spacing would be a great deal shorter (ie a bonzai plant). 

The TAG system is based upon basically growing more like LP aero during veg and HP aero during budding. They grow for tall plants that way as it is easier than trying to dial in the most efficient cyclic timing that will still allow tall plant growth with HP aero wg here hair roots and timing are a concern. The TAG buds tend to be too stretched and air, as they change their cyclic timing just a but two weeks before budding to build up a new growth of roots just below the net pots that is nearly all hair roots such as is typical of HP with short sprays far apart. The problem then is then the plants start growing efficiently and the plant buds so quickly that the buds do not fill out well as the inter nodal spacing is to large.

So for now the search is still ongoing for an ideal cyclic regime to find a middle ground that will allow more height (trees) and efficiency (massive hair root proportions/ quick to maturity/ close inter nodal spacing).

If using drain to waste there should be no gain to flushing as you base you nytrient strength on plant needs. If using a re circulating reservoir there is more of a proplem as the pH changes constantly through out the day making nutrient uptake at times totally unpredictable. This means at times plants take up and stores nutrients it may never need. 

No the amount of nutrients found in plant tissues grown with drain to waste (especially HP or air atomized aero) are not the same as plants grown in soil, in re circulating reservoirs or hydro with absorbent media. The drain to waster HP or air atomized aero have lower concentrations of nearly all the nutrients, especially the highly mobile nutrients. 

Mobility refers to the ability of a nutrient to move around within a plant once it has been taken up by the roots. Transpiration is the primary force driving the initial movement of nutrients from the roots to the leaves and shoots via the xylem. The highly mobile nutrients nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium and magnesium can be remobilized and readily moved from older, mature leaves to new actively growing leaves .

Nutrient mobility gives plants some flexibility in allocating nutritional resources. If the supply of a mobile nutrient has been cut off, new tissue growth can proceed since the nutrient in short supply can be scavenged from the older leaves that are not actively growing.

Mobile nutrient deficiency symptoms are observed first on the older leaves. Consider an example where the nitrogen supply in the growing medium is suddenly cut off and there is no longer sufficient nitrogen for new growth. Because nitrogen can be mobilized from mature leaves to actively growing new leaves, deficiency symptoms (yellowing of the lower leaves) are exhibited first on the lower leaves. The young leaves can continue to grow with nitrogen scavenged from the older leaves. So when you see the older larger leaves during budding the plants are not receiving enough nutrients and are cannibalizing them selves. This means a loss in efficiency, potency and yield. I question the cognitive thinking abilities of any grower who flushes his/her plants. It makes no scientific or common sense. Starve your plants of nutrients at the point in their growth when the plants are putting nearly all their efforts directly into resin potency and seed pod, bract/calyx) plumping . Just because many others are incapable or too impatient to properly drying and cure their buds doesn&#8217;t mean you must flush.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 12, 2010)

I use Hayward Solenoid valves. They are not Cheap. This one is new and on eBay. http://cgi.ebay.com/HAYWARD-PVC-CPVC-SOLENOID-VALVE-1-2-TRUE-UNION-120V-/360252346524?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item53e0b6909c It sells for $220 retail. You can probably get it with an offer of $50 to $75

*No Pressure Differential Design:* For maximum application flexibility these heavy duty solenoid valves have been designed so that no pressure differential is needed for them to operate reliably. Their unique design eliminates problems such as sticking and "chattering" due to system pressure differentials that can effect ordinary solenoid valves. And their performance is not affected by downstream restrictions caused by nozzles, flow meters or other equipment. This is a real benefit in these types of applications. The valve will operate with up to 40 PSI of backpressure and up to 120 PSI of inlet pressure. There are no minimum pressure requirements.

True Union design
Continuous 100% duty applications
Corrosion-resistant polyester coil
Four-position electrical connection
Both 1/2" conduit or S-J Type cord electrical connection
115 VAC is standard
Two-Year Warranty

I go over kill onmy timers by Using Omrom H5CXA timers. I buy them on Eaby when ever I find them at a decent price,. That is not often. They retail for over $150 each. http://parts.digikey.com/1/parts/675305-relay-timer-digital-spdt-100-240-h5cx-a-ac100-240.html Many places charge up to $250.


----------



## Essex (May 12, 2010)

Fatman, how does this compare to what u got for MJ nute uptake profile?

Veg,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 4.6%
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.5%
Total Potassium (k) 3.6%
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%
Total Calcium (Ca) 4.7%
Total Sulphur (S) 4.2%

Flower,
MAJOR ELEMENTS,
Total Nitrogen (N) 1.2%
Total Phosphorus (P) 1.3%
Total Potassium (k) 2.6%
SECONDARY ELEMENTS,
Total Magnesium (Mg) 1%
Total Calcium (Ca) 3.8%
Total Sulphur (S) 3.2%

Am I close yet?

Cant find any info out there and what is out there seems incomplete?

Have u got any books ya recomend? or links?

Thanks man, ya the only person I have found that seems to be in the know!


----------



## Jimmy Luffnan (May 14, 2010)

Im really interested in the varied results from these setups.
Does anybody here have any 'root porn' photos from a HP or atomized grow?
Even a link or photo from somewhere else which may not be yours would be great as Id like to have a good look at the difference in root structure compared to a LP aero grow =)

It's probably a big ask, but if there are any pics of MJ plants just before harvest to get an idea of inter nodal spacing and bud density, that would be gold! =D

Cheers Jimmy.


----------



## auto22 (May 14, 2010)

Jimmy Luffnan said:


> Im really interested in the varied results from these setups.
> Does anybody here have any 'root porn' photos from a HP or atomized grow?
> Even a link or photo from somewhere else which may not be yours would be great as Id like to have a good look at the difference in root structure compared to a LP aero grow =)
> 
> ...


theres some root shots in this thread somewhere i saw but dont remember where


----------



## fatman7574 (May 14, 2010)

Essex said:


> Fatman, how does this compare to what u got for MJ nute uptake profile?
> 
> Veg,
> MAJOR ELEMENTS, Three different sets of tissue samples: The first two are Indica and the third an Indica dominant. The samples were a mix of both bract and bud leaf tissue. Total THC: 22.9, 21.8 and 20.8
> ...


There typically isreally is not a huge variation in mj tissue samples except in the THC department. However, plant nutrient uptake can be up to about 35% or even 50% for some straiduring veg growth so idealizing a nutrient for a particular strain can make a huge difference in quality and yield and particularly in the time required for growth.


----------



## Essex (May 15, 2010)

fatman u are a god!!! you have the best info ive seen! that mix aint what "they" made thats just my organic tea I couldent find any calcium or sulphur uptake so I had only the n-p-k-Mg to work it out to, it is for a organic recirculatury hydro system. athough now Im thinking the sulphur is to high to be usefull and will have to adjust my ingredients.

I was planing for testing the nutes in a TAG, would this be ok? as then I dont have to post weed  that link is cheap as chips m8, thanks
I thought that a nute designed for a particular strain would be rather beneficial, and im also guessin by adjusting ratios could be brought to finish faster?
what do you think happens to uptake in the first 2 weeks of flower? ive seen some strange uptake stats for this bit reported and was thinking it needs its own mix? 

Ill have a go at them books m8! thanks, now to get my head around chelating, lol

thanks again!


----------



## fatman7574 (May 15, 2010)

Sulfur ratios can very a great deal without causing problems. Typically your atlkin only a need for a ratio of 0.6 to 1.0 in comparison to Phosphorus. Where thing sget skewed is in recirculating reservoirs. There are huge amounts of playing with high EC and hugh macro and secondary nutreints and low trace ni utrients to try to compensate for recirculating resrvoirs. None of the manipulations work well. However it is hard to convince peole who are already produing mj that costs to much to switch to system where they can grow drain to waste. So manafacturers still keep producing formulations and supplements for use in recirculatory su sytems without ever trying to explain to people what is going on in their reservoirs. Even Fat MiKie Of AN with his Underground Growers site never really tells peple what is really going on. He just writes about palny ts tsissues and plant uptakes but avoids the issues of bufferings that are the reason g fotr all the nutrients above and beyond what plants store in their tissues.


----------



## Essex (May 15, 2010)

wont changin a huge recirculating rez a lot overcome probs and avoid needed manipulations? this MJ only cost a lot to produce if ya use fat mike n his $3000 nute system, I dont know why I wouldnt trust him to give good advise, lol. I wish more people was as helpfull as u


----------



## fatman7574 (May 15, 2010)

Essex said:


> wont changin a huge recirculating rez a lot overcome probs and avoid needed manipulations? this MJ only cost a lot to produce if ya use fat mike n his $3000 nute system, I dont know why I wouldnt trust him to give good advise, lol. I wish more people was as helpfull as u


Your cost to produce mj should be less that about $2.00 (and that is a very high cost) a gram or you need to stop growing until you have studied up on the subject abit more. 

For an example NASA for its smallest NFT system used a 6 " wide flat trough for a plant that has almost no roots (sweet potato), but growers of mj wonder why they are having problems with mj plants that have larger root masses in 4" wide troughs. A single layer of roots with the potatoes that do not even cover the tube bottom versus a thick matt of roots covering the full tube bottom if not the full tube. Hell the system was develped for leaf lettuce plants. Aero was designed for a deep chamber or tents where the roots had 3 or 4 foot before reaching the bottom. Duh, mj growers wonder why they have problems with 3 or 4 inch diameter tubes. Commercial growers spary a mist. Most aero growers use high volume low pressure pumps with sprayers thar trickle out streams of water. And they wonder why they have problems. But we all *know* they can fix it all with an air stone and low reservoir temps.


----------



## AeroTrek (May 15, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> This thread is more about very quick efficient growth the large trees in reality so that tends to mean minimal primary roots, a very large amount of lateral roots covered with a hugh amount of hair roots. This however tends to bonzai plants and shorten the internodal space so much it can look almost like the branches are almost on top of each other. Great for SOG's but it requires a lot more experimentation on cyclic timing to allow for trees as palnts given a choice always strive for fast maturity and reproduction not yield to the grower (height). Can you imagine how quickly a Ruderalis would bud in a HP or air atomized aero.


Fatman,

Would you be able to get taller plants with the same node spacing if you were to distance the light a little further from the plants (essentially stretching the plant). I know that you keep your lights 2 to 3 inches from the canopy top and was wondering if the close node spacing was due to this or Hp aero or both.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 15, 2010)

The closer light just means more photosynthesis in given time period is possible. It seems that the root development leads to hormonal differences I have cut my PAR down changing my wattage to 41.66 from 62.5 and I still have short internodal spacing. The only thing that has changed that is to appreciably lower the amount of hair roots by over watering by watering to much when you spray or too often. Mainly too much when spraying.


----------



## laceygirl (May 16, 2010)

Fatman, I have had a ridiculous amount of trouble with my aerocloner... A whitish whispy looking fungi thing has returned twice to my aerocloner reservoir... I just want my clones to grow roots, I am using EZ Clone misters, in a 14 gallon rubbermaid roughneck... Its a great system, but I can't understand why this keeps happening... I've dismantled the entire unit and soaked it in disenfectant, rinsed it thoroughly and let it dry... Will re assemble it next week when the rest of the parts arrive...

I use Clonex Cloning solution with low pH tap water in the res... I don't use a water heater in the res anymore, my areocloner is in a cloning tent, with an extraction fan... The temps are always excellent....I can control the climate completely.... 
WHAT AM I DOING WRONG PLEASE...? I've been reading about bleach? How much bleach per gallon would I need...?? Can I still use my cloning solution if I use bleach???

Any information you could provide me would be great...

Laceygirl...


----------



## Aeropuff (May 17, 2010)

Hi all!

I just read the whole thread and I love it! Props to Fatman, Atomizer, Tree Farmer and the rest of you for the great info!

I'm also working on my own project but I still have a long way to go...

Fatman I have a question regarding the Omron H5CX timers that you use. They come in either "100 to 240 VAC" and "12 to 24 VDC/24 VAC" supply voltage. Does this mean that the unit itself is supplied by that voltage or whatever the unit controls should be that voltage? or both? 

For example I found these solenoids on ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com/1-4-Electric-Solenoid-Valve-12-volt-Air-Water-BBTF-/300418883920?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f25c6150

First of all , are these solenoids any good considering they are only $16 a piece? And could I control a few of these with the Omron H5CX?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 17, 2010)

I use some of the same solenoids rated at 120 volts for gravity feed nutrients lines for air atomized aero. They work fine for that but I have never tried them with a higher pressure. The H5CX has a seperate feed wire to supply the outlet power from to the solenoids they are not fed by the same line as the inlet normally. It can be done with a jumper wire but that increases chances harming the timer circuitry raher than just a simple relay. IE $200 damage verus $10. But yes you can control a 12, 24, a 120 or 240 volt relay with either timer. The low voltage timer is available cheaper and more often on ebay then the high voltage timer. I use the Omron to control its own relay. That relay feeds power to a remote relay that actually supplies power to two pods with 3 solenoids each (1 for air and 2 for nutrients).


----------



## Aeropuff (May 17, 2010)

Thanks for the answer!


I hope you don't mind but I have a couple more questions...


I made this simple diagram based on your drawing you posted earlier (page 111). The diagram is missing a pressure release valve as I'm not exactly sure where to place it. I know it goes before the accumulator tank and after the pump, however I'm not sure where to place with regards do the pressure switch and check valve.


Is there anything else missing in the diagram?


If I could find cheaper solenoids that would withstand the higher pressures (100psi) I would put them right before each nozzle.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 17, 2010)

The check valve is generally after the pressure switch and before the relief valve. The relief valve can be on either the inlet or outlet side of the pump. Jusy put no valves between the relief valve andthe tank. Most typically the solenoid valve controls more than one valvewith HP aero. typicallly it controls flow to all the mmisters in one chamber. If air atomized all the air for at least one chambers nozzles(s) is controlled by just one solenoid. If the water is fed by gravity a seperate nozzles is needed for that for each nozzle. They just like the HP spray Solenoid(s) go close to the nozzle(s) so that very little spray or drippage occurs after each spray cycle.


----------



## Aeropuff (May 17, 2010)

ok I see...here is the updated version of the diagram. One more thing, I noticed in your sketch that you added a pressure regulator after the accumulator tank. Is this necessary or is it more of an additional safety precaution? Doesn't the accumulator tank in a way act as a pressure regulator?

Im sorry for the newbie questions...


----------



## fatman7574 (May 17, 2010)

The presure regulator assures that the pressureflows at the pressure or lower. IE if your pump outlet is 125 psi and your pressure regulator is at at 50 pis the pressure going to yout nozzles will be 50 psi. There is also a pressure switch that turns the pump on and off. Say on at 65 psi and off at 125 psi. The accumultor tank is mainly just a storage tank. It is used so that one can use a larger capacity pump then is needed. This is more efficient, and cost effective then using a smaller pump. The pressure tank allows the larger pump to run shorter periods of time and turn off until needed again. The accumulator tanks now used most often have a rubber bladder inside which is precharged with water to near your low end usage pressure. As air is more compressible than water this allows more water usagevbefore the pumps comes on that with just compressing water. The other option is a bladderless tank that you just add air to, but the water eventually absorbs the air and then you would need to periodically pump in more air.


----------



## Aeropuff (May 17, 2010)

ok I get it...

Im planning on running a system that would be between 80 and 100 psi. and one thing that confuses me is the pressure switch...lets say I get a shurflo high pressure demand pump, more specifically the "SPECIAL BUILD" 8030-813-239 model found on this website: http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPumps/8030-813-239.html which states that the pump turns on at 80 psi and shuts off at 100 (exactly the rating that I'm going for) does this mean I don't need a pressure switch such as the Dwyer Mercoid CXA-S3/S2 http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Products/Product.cfm?Group_ID=582&Product_ID=970&sPageName=Ordering

To rephrase my question: Is a pressure switch like the Dwyer Mercoid CXA-S3/S2 necessary if you have a pump like the "SPECIAL BUILD" 8030-813-239 that I linked above? To me it seems that you would need a pressure switch only with a pump that does not have one allready installed. Is this right?


----------



## fatman7574 (May 17, 2010)

I would not buy a pump with a built in pressure switch as they seem to be pretty undependable and are typically non adjustable. The point with the pressure tank is that a pump is going to provide more air then you need, So the tank stores that extra air under high pressure. Typically you have your pump kick on at a pressure setting higher for kick on then that you are using for misters and higher yet for a kick off pressure. Say you are going to run 60 psi through your misters. Set your pump pressure switch so that your pump comes on at 65 PSI and turns the pump off at 95 psi. Set your pressure release valve at 100 psi. Set you pressure regulator at 60 psi. You pump will only run a few minutes every few hours depending on how many misters your using, their size(s) and your spraying times. Using a larger tank means longer the pump runs when it comes on, but that means it can go a very longtime before it needs to run again.


----------



## Aeropuff (May 17, 2010)

Thats good info...you never know when you will want to change or adjust the pressure...so I guess the adjustable pressure switch is the way to go. Ok now I get the the whole set up idea....However choosing a pump can be quite strenuous (at least for me) as there is so many different models to choose from. For example I have no idea what "demand" means and then there are the "bypass" models...and then the "demand with bypass"...and to tell you quite honestly thats where I get lost...


Im trying to make a shopping list for all the items I would need. 

So far I have purchased the bio-controls 0.016" Spray jets and a few solenoid valves from Ebay...

The accumulator tank will most likely be a Varem Tank http://www.varem.it/ (as I live in Europe and I heard great things about Varem's products and there is local distributor near by)

What pump do you recommend I purchase? I dont want to go under 60 psi and over 100 psi...


----------



## Atomizer (May 18, 2010)

fatman7574 said:


> The relief valve can be on either the inlet or outlet side of the pump.


Typo`s like this could maim someone or even cost them their life. 

Guys, if you want to replicate Tree Farmers results, just follow the detailed information/photo`s he posted in the thread from several runs with the setup.


----------



## fatman7574 (May 18, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Typo`s like this could maim someone or even cost them their life. So could tripping over a pebble. Damn how long did a few pele run their HP systems with no reiief valves at all dude. So give me a break Dude and next time just point out my simple error and maybe contribute something by saying where I should have said to put the relief valve rather than my just thinking it but writing something different. It was obvious others knew what I was indicating even with the the error. If you notice the drawing in the next reply is correct Dude.
> 
> Guys, if you want to replicate Tree Farmers results, just follow the detailed information/photo`s he posted in the thread from several runs with the setup.


 Lets not go there dude. 

No one but a few individuals has seen anyhing he has grown so what makes you think anyone wants to replicate his results. No one knows what he has done and few are seeming to replicate his set up to any great extent, other than using a few using an accumulator tank and maybe one person considering using a shurflow pump. There are many ways to do things sucessfully and some are judging success differently then others. 

I would be quite happy to let you and tree farmer answer all the HP system questions but I do not see you making the effort Dude. The last time you seemed to appear it was with the same bad attitude.


----------



## Aeropuff (May 18, 2010)

I figured that was a typo  but I understood what fatman was trying to say.


----------



## Essex (May 18, 2010)

fatman 4 the win


----------



## Atomizer (May 18, 2010)

Essex,
Take a look at post #3 on page one this thread and you`ll see what the sum total of Fatman`s experience was with hp-aero/ air assisted aero was when he arrived on the thread...pretty much nada.

Follow his advice at your own peril and make sure you upgrade your house/personal injury insurance 



> No one but a few individuals has seen anyhing he has grown so what makes you think anyone wants to replicate his results.[/quote
> 
> You do yourself no favours by disrespecting the guy who started the thread. Its less likely anyone will want to replicate your results...which seem to be all in your mind.
> 
> I`m outta here.


----------



## Essex (May 18, 2010)

fatman has helped me  I dont take anything anyone says as gospel but what do you expect for free online? even einstein started somewhere m8, and if anyone else was around live online to help get my head around HP id be glad to ask 

I'm shore myself and fatman dont meen any disrespect to this thread, it is a live thread about HP that is quite rare and it has helped me a great deal 

If you took time to explain stuff and showed your results maby there would be a better vibe about HP rather than dead threads that all ended in bitchin........


----------



## fatman7574 (May 18, 2010)

Atomizer said:


> Atomizer
> 
> Take a look at post #3 on page one this thread and you`ll see what the sum total of Fatman`s experience was with hp-aero/air assisted aero was when he arrived on the thread...pretty much nada. As was tree farmers and probably yours Dude. It took very little to learn what was needed Dude. I am not an ignorant man. I learn very quickly when I choose. A little carpentry some to part epoxy enamel, some plumbing, some calculations, some minimal trial and error. Nothing that an average engineer with many years of experiences can't simply handlee in a week end. It is not rocket science Dude. Actualy I think I can be honest in saying I know more about air atomized aero than either you or tree farmer now know. Probably as much or more about HP also and I dont even use HP aero. So stick that in your bong and smoke it it Dude.
> 
> ...


Guess I just don't waste time like others as I have already produced in less space more than tree farmer in less time. But that is because he is experimenting so as to perfect a technique for trees. Mean while I am simply using the system in a way it already performs excelently with out continous experimentation and set backs. Bonzai SOG plants fast and hot with CO2 and dehumidification and drain to waste. No unnecessarily self imposed learning curve trying to do something that might not even be posible because I just started out with medium pressure aero and increased the chamber size and improved the nutrient delivery with air atomized spray. No real challenges involved just applied what is already known to work and bumped it up a few notches.


----------

