# Vertical top feed and drain. Am I wasting my time?



## Gorcs (Apr 9, 2014)

I have an idea but I am not too sure if it will work. The aim is somewhat of a vertical flood and drain (except it would be an overwatered top feed and drain). I want to try a vertical style SOG using square drainpipe about 1m high, each 1m drainpipe will have 4 net pots directly in the side about 20cm apart. I will make holes for the net pots which will sit in the drainpipe at 90 degrees. Rooted clones with a little veg will be put straight into 12/12 to flower. To prevent leaking out of the net pots they will be plugged with neoprene inserts. The top feed will be from EZ cloner sprayers or something similar but larger which will be on for 4-5 times a day, the runoff will be at the bottom of the drainpipe back to the reservoir.

The medium I am thinking of is the mini rock wool cubes and clay pebbles. something like 2:1 ratio mixed together and put in the drainpipe. I hope by doing this I can flood/topfeed 4-5 times a day. And the cubes will provide enough moisture while the clay pebbles provide enough air.

Obviously if this was a bottom feed flood and drain the thing would just leak at the first net pot. By top feeding I am optimistic I can simply over saturate the cubes and allowing the remainder to run off I hope to give the same effect as a normal flood and drain.

The inspiration from this came from:
heaths vertical and the various spin offs

the capn: 10oz plants flood and drain at ic mag
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/hydroponic-gardening/190198-how-10oz-per-plant-perpetual-indoors.html

Pros
- quiet (3-5 floods a day)
- a verticals solution to flood and drain
- flood and drain aeration replacing heaths constant flood with no fountain noises. (I would like this to be quiet)
- very compact

Cons
- could be a disaster if leaked (this would be closed in a cabinet in this case so would just run back to reservoir) worst case plants would die
- same as above... could leak at the net pots, (but as it is a top feed and using neoprene I am optimistic this won't happen, maybe a few drops here and there but would appreciate honest opinions)

Undecided (opinions please):
- mini cubes and hydroton (2:1 mix or 5:2mix) I feel using 100% mini rock wool cubes may be a bit much so clay pebbles would make sure there is air in the system even if the cubes have a tendency to crush down ontop of each other to prevent over saturation. The rock wool should keep the clay pebbles from drying until the next watering
- Why don't you just use rock wool slabs on top feed? Well... I would like a recirculating system and I am trying to do this in 2x3 ft environment. Also I want to go straight to 12/12 from clones which have had 2-3 weeks to root and veg in a micro system.

If I am dreaming please let me know, I only have experience in coco but i don't like the idea of runoff, just wasted nutes. I have been thinking about this for some time now and not having attempted flood and drain this would suit my space.


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## PetFlora (Apr 9, 2014)

Check out my grows. top feed using HydroHalo Rings + Air Pots + polished ornamental stones

I would post a pic here, but that function is not working properly. I keep getting it rejected

See my thread for details


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## STLbudz (Apr 9, 2014)

Hey bro i cant find your grows

Sent from my N9810 using Rollitup mobile app


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## sunni (Apr 9, 2014)

PetFlora said:


> Check out my grows. top feed using HydroHalo Rings + Air Pots + polished ornamental stones
> 
> I would post a pic here, but that function is not working properly. I keep getting it rejected


your pic size could be too big try resizing it


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## Gorcs (Apr 9, 2014)

Petflora, I will take a look through your logs now.

Here is a rough idea. I am just trying to pick out any faults.


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## potpimp (Apr 9, 2014)

I don't think you would want clay pellets in a vertical grow op. Also, you may want to rethink the 90 degree angle; maybe do a 45 instead. As long as you water/feed the roots every one to two hours you do not need to have rockwool or any other media; I use an NFT system and it is awesome. This has all been thought out, tested and proven so there is no need to reinvent the wheel so to speak. There are already some killer vert systems, so save yourself some money and frustration by picking a good workable system that people are already having success with.


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## Gorcs (Apr 9, 2014)

Thanks for the responses. I understand where you are coming from potpimp, particularly using a tried a tested style. I am not trying to fight against the grain. It is just a case of this suits my 2x3ft space and if it will work. My main aim is to keep this in a very small space which no systems I have found seem to offer, maybe I just need to do more research on what others are doing but have spent a lot of time looking. Aero is out the questions, flooding every two hours is a little more than what I would like.

I have thought about how to alter the angle and have hit problems each time. Most the angled fittings take up too much space. Having thought about it again cutting 2" diameter pipe (which the net pots will sit in) at a 45 degree angle and gluing at the angled side to the square pipe may work. Then slowly drilling through the 2 inch pipe (using the angled pipe as a guide) with a hole saw through the square pipe, time consuming but thats ok. Then there would be little angled perches for the netpots to stop leaks. Although I don't know the best way to glue pvc to pvc I am sure it can be done.

The main reason I am drawn to rockwool is I can reduce the frequency of the pump running, the other advantage being I know if the pump fails I have some time to correct. Can I ask why clay pebbles are advised against, I have not used them before so may be missing the obvious here. One of the reasons for using it would allow faster drainage (on the off chance the flow rate of the pump overflowed the top of the system before the water passed through the rock wool, I don't think this is very likely, but have learned a lot from murphys law over the years). Having seen vertical hydro attempts with drip feed clay pebbles as the only medium and using pebbles does not seem to be the most successful way. The main reason for having pebbles in the mix is to prevent the off chance of drowning and secondly overflowing while at the same time providing a little extra air in the pipe considering the pots will be closed off with neoprene.


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## potpimp (Apr 9, 2014)

The way to bond PVC to PVC is with PVC cement; easy peasy. The reason I wouldn't use the clay pellets is because of the weight and they trap bacteria and must be cleaned in sodium hypochlorate before using it again. I must have missed the criteria of it being a very small space. I'm sure you can mod this to work for you.  I see your reason for using the rock wool and it's a good reason. My timer/pump got unplugged for a whole day and the only way I noticed it was that the leaves were drooping. Once I plugged it back in the leaves perked up within an hour. With the DNE timer you can adjust the time on and time off independently. Allowing the roots to dry out or nearly dry out between sprayings will make sure they get the O2 they need. I guess the best way would be to give it a shot and see how it works. You can always keep an eye on them and make any adjustments. The good thing about hydro is that the plants respond very quickly.


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## ttystikk (Apr 9, 2014)

I think your suggested setup is a bit more complicated than it needs to be, try to simplify the design. When I do this, the designs generally end up less finicky and more fault tolerant.

I've used- and reused- clay pebbles for YEARS and I do not and never have rinsed them in bleach! Wtf? The only issue I've ever run into when reusing them is that they tend to build up salt content and could use a rinse in tapwater before reuse. If they're full of pythium or some such, I'd say the root zone design approach needs attention.

Heath Robinson's vertical NFT tubes around a central bare bulb solve more problems than at first it may appear. 

In fact, if you had a res with a float valve at the top and a small orifice, I'll bet you could achieve a continuous flow down through such a system while the pump runs only intermittently. If that's your goal, this solves the problem.


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## potpimp (Apr 9, 2014)

Heath Robinson's setup is... just beyond WOW.


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## Gorcs (Apr 9, 2014)

Again thanks for the responses.

potpimp, That was my aim, to set the timers as they start to dry, the clay pebble thought came afterwards as an extra precaution as they will be tubes to make sure enough air is present. I suppose I won't have any problems or need for clay pebbles when tuned in correctly, I can just adjust. Never really thought about it that way, was just assuming I would have problems with air if I didn't. I am liking the idea of cutting pvc pipes at angles and having little net pot perches, I would not have thought about that without deciding against it and you prompting me to rethink. So no complaints about 100% rockwool?

ttystikk, I had to read that twice to understand what you were explaining and that is an excellent idea. But there is no room for an extra refillable top res and I am trying to avoid the sound of continuous trickling water from my space. The vertical NFT is not really my goal (although I did mention Heath) however it is nice option to have if things go wrong. That said I have not looked into NFT too much, but when I consider adding air stones etc... (i know they are not necessary) to maximise its efficiency the added noise is no good. I will look for ways to simplify but I can't really see any currently. It is basically a flood and drain with a top feed rather than flooding.

I would be interested in any opinions on a coming up with a perfect medium for these tubes or if mini rockwool cubes would be fine on their own. I am leaning towards rock wool mini cubes, as once its tuned in thats it, plus no messing on with mediums. It would minimise flooding times and mean I have that little bit of time if the pump goes wrong.

Next problem:

This brings me to another point, which I would rather ask here than start another thread. I need a silent mini cloner. I am considering using a normal cloning tray and humidity dome with a separate tray beneath to wick the nutes up into perlite medium. The cloner must also act as a mini vegging site for at least a week, once vegged they go straight to flower after transplant.

One problem I foresee is if I transplant 100% perlite net pots, would they be ok in the flooded tube as the perlite would dry faster than the rock wool and that is where the roots connect to to the plant ( ) and could end horribly as a weak link in the flowering area.

One possible solution to this would be using mini rock wool cubes and perlite mix in the cloner, maybe 50/50, the perlite wicks and spreads the nutes/water evenly among medium and feeds it to the mini cubes. (I would need 7-10days to root, and an extra 7-14 days veg in the same system before straight transplant to flower)

Anyway, I was going to keep this to myself and just do it. But because it is not exactly straight foreword I want to be told to stop what I am doing before starting something that is destined to fail. (again thanks for the help/advice)


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## potpimp (Apr 9, 2014)

Gorcs said:


> Again thanks for the responses.
> 
> potpimp, ...So no complaints about 100% rockwool?


 None at all; it's a great medium.



Gorcs said:


> Next problem: I need a silent mini cloner. I am considering using a normal cloning tray and humidity dome with a separate tray beneath to wick the nutes up into perlite medium. The cloner must also act as a mini vegging site for at least a week, once vegged they go straight to flower after transplant.
> 
> One problem I foresee is if I transplant 100% perlite net pots, would they be ok in the flooded tube as the perlite would dry faster than the rock wool and that is where the roots connect to to the plant ( ) and could end horribly as a weak link in the flowering area.
> 
> ...


I've made 3 different cloners and bought two "pro" models, all with lackluster results. Then I finally found a method that works for me 100% of the time and it's super easy. Take your cuttings, toss them into water while you prep them. Cut them at a 45 degree angle and gently scrape off most of the cambium on the bottom 3/4" or so, dip it in your favorite cloning gel/powder/pixie dust, tuck the baby into a Rapid Rooter plug and do the rest. Have a plastic tray with holes in the bottom to put them in. Put about 1/2" of lukewarm water in the bottom of a solid bottom plastic tray and set the tray with the holes in it. Put a low power light over it, like a shop light. I used a seed mat with mine but that was in Alaska; you just want to make sure they don't get too cold or too hot so you may need to put a towel (maybe folded) over the top of the seed mat. I used a dome on mine but you probably don't have to. The main thing is do NOT NUTE them until after they have roots, then start off with 1/4 strength. Trust me, I've killed more pot plants by overfeeding than most people have ever tried to grow.  After a week there should be roots popping out all over the sides of the Rapid Rooter plugs. 

My concern about using perlite to the rock wool is it getting into your pump. The cubes would take days to dry out, so you really don't need to use perlite. A vegging site is super easy and cheap to make with a tote; my favorite is the Stinkbud design - of which I've built two and they work flawlessly.


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## Gorcs (Apr 10, 2014)

Ah, never considered about the perlite making its way as far as the pump. I originally looked at jiffy pellets for another system some time ago and really liked the thought. I just assumed they would not be too great for hydro being organic/soil/peat. I assumed rapid routers were exactly the same (brand names etc...) now I know.

I don't want to keep dragging the thread out. I have just looked at stinkbud cloner, and have considered the easy cloners self build (which is basically the same thing) and mini foggers (i know they fail constantly) but... Would it be acceptable to place the rapid router straight in a net pot with loose mini rock wool cubes. Drill holes into the bottom of the cloner, have the cloner in another tray. Then have the bottom on the net pot sit in a plain water for a week until rooted (maybe 5-6mm deep, very weak solution for a further 1-2 week veg to wick up) without worrying about the cubes drowning the roots. Then I can just top up the tray to 5-6mm each time it gets empty for my little 1-2 week micro veg. My main aim here is to have the cloner, veg to be silent with no moving parts.

I'll be sure to scrap off as much of the cambium as possible. I am very happy knowing I can add this new word to my vocabulary.


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## potpimp (Apr 10, 2014)

Yep, that would work. If a person really wanted to use perlite, he could put a nylon stocking over the pump; I usually do that anyway and it keeps everything out. One thing most people don't have is a spare pump laying around. If you cycle the pump on for a few seconds every 10 minutes the stem will stay wet all the time but will be able to breathe due to the agitation and oxygenation of the fluids.


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