# People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study.



## Farooq87 (Feb 23, 2009)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-'less-likely-to-believe-in-God'.html

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W4M-4SD1KNR-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04/29/2008&_alid=759868596&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=6546&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bdb3ca48b21fdb2959f6f8ce4b6001de

Discuss....


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## cruzer101 (Feb 23, 2009)

Mine is 138 and I believe man created god.


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## Farooq87 (Feb 23, 2009)

cruzer101 said:


> Mine is 138 and I believe man created god.


Man created god as in, "God is Dead. And we have killed him"?


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## Brick Top (Feb 23, 2009)

In my opinion Professor Richard Lynn, for someone who evidently has a high IQ himself, has taken a rather shallow view of things, or if not at least the articles or his explanation does not go into much detail to explain why he believes what he does beyond that of just IQ level.

For one having a high IQ and being well educated do not always go hand in hand. I have known many people in my life who have had a high IQ but were drawn at some early or fairly early age to some line of employment that did not require higher education and because of it when compared to others with lower IQ&#8217;s who did go to college and possibly graduate school who received much more education the ones with the higher IQ&#8217;s do not seem to be as intelligent as those with the lower IQ&#8217;s and more education. Many of those with the lower IQ&#8217;s become part of the intellectual elite and the academia. Now when I say lower IQ&#8217;s I mean that in a comparative way and not as in lower meaning way lower and not at all gifted. They still have very respectable IQ&#8217;s but they are not as high as those I am referring to. 

Well those that go on to higher education often times enter fields of studies that basically become their religion though they seldom see it that way. It replaces or overpowers what they may have been taught when they were young. 

Something I found to be interesting was a TV show I saw some years back on if I remember right the Discovery channel was about NASA and one of the things mentioned was how after the Hubble telescope began getting the most amazing pictures of space ever seen that a number of NSAS scientists that had been atheists started to rethink things and a good number of them decided that there had to be a God or at least some form of intelligent design. What they were seeing for the first time in their lives was so amazing that they could no longer believe things just happened in a Big Bang random trial and error fashion. 

I may be wrong but if you look at number of people with higher IQ&#8217;s who are professors or part of the intellectual elite in general and the number of scientists working for NASA that most likely you will not find a higher average IQ level among professors and the intellectual elite as you will find among those working for NASA. 

Something else to be factored in is that in the past religion was not only taught to people when they were children but it was reinforced throughout their lives even in very small subtle ways that no longer happens and more people who start out as believers drift away from believing. 

It may seem minor to some but when I think back to my younger years every store that you went into during the Christmas Season played Christmas music but it was things like Hark the Herald Angel Sings and not Santa Claus is Coming to Town. Store windows and signs said Merry Christmas and not Merry Xmas or Happy Holidays. Everywhere you looked there were religious reminders like Nativity Scenes in front of not only churches but also governmental buildings. Even other holidays had stronger religious overtones to them than they do now. Thanksgiving was not just a day to give thanks for all we have but to give thanks to God for all we have. I can remember even 4th of July speeches where it was said that with the help of God the colonists and Revolutionary Army were able to beat the British and shed the yoke of oppression of the old ways and give us religious freedom. When was the last time any of you heard a 4th of July speech like that? Memorial Day and Veterans Day speeches said with the help of God or the grace of God we, meaning the U.S., prevailed. You do not hear that said these days. TV shows showed families in church on Sundays or at least just coming home from/getting back from church on Sundays and talking about what the preacher said. You don&#8217;t see that on TV today. 

There used to be a constant reinforcement of religion throughout people&#8217;s lives that no longer exists so more people are apt to drift from their religious beginnings just because of that alone. Maybe it is not a massive percentage but it is some percentage of people. 

According to the Bible Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat the fruit from the tree of knowledge. They did because they were allegedly duped by the Devil by being told it would give them God&#8217;s wisdom, they would become God-like in many ways that that was a temptation that was more than could be ignored. Today science has become the fruit of the tree of knowledge and many have taken bites from it and now believe themselves to be so wise that they believe they have the knowledge to say God does not and or never did exist and that man created God instead of discovered God through His Son&#8217;s teachings or previous to that by alleged infrequent interactions between God and certain humans like for example Job and Noah and Abraham and others. 

Some of the stories of the Bible are extremely difficult to believe. The story of Noah&#8217;s Ark for one. To begin with if you research it the Ark was supposedly far larger than anything people ever saw in drawings in children&#8217;s religious books. The best estimates are that is was at least 450 feet long, 75 feet wide and 45 feet high and possibly larger because it was built to cubits and cubits was not a standardized measurement and some of what people called cubits were larger so the Ark could have been larger. 

Well that tells people who pictured the Ark as some fairly tiny ship that could never have contained the animals it was claimed to have contained that there was far more space available and it would have held far more animals. But the question still is how did Noah travel so much of the world to find two of every species and then return then to the Ark? How did Noah have enough knowledge about animals to be able to look at every type of animal, many of which would not have been native to his region, and know one was a male and another a female? Was there some Angel on his shoulders pointing them out? What about the highly dangerous species of animals that would have killed and eaten Noah? Did some Angel on Noah&#8217;s shoulder tell the dangerous animals to chill and tell them that this guy was going to save their species from extinction so they should just come along for the ride and not kill Noah or any of his family or any of the other animals on the Ark? Now I have no idea if Black Mamabas existed in that time but they are a rather petulant snake so if they did how did Noah know which were males and which were females and how did he gather them up by tows without getting killed. Asps and Cobras date back to that era and neither of them are very person-friendly so how could Noah look at them and know a male from a female and then be able to say follow me or just walk over and pick them up and say you&#8217;re coming with me? How did he supply food and water for all the various species of animals? How did he and his family keep up with the tremendous amount of waste the animals would deposit in the areas of the Ark they inhabited? They would have been shoveling and scraping dung 24 hours a day trying to keep up on it. How did Noah know enough about ships to load the Ark in a way that would make it balanced and stable and not end up with all the elephants and rhinoceroses and water buffalos all on one side and things like snakes and ferrets and mice etc. all on the other side making it so unbalanced that the first big wave would have turned it into the Poseiden? 

The sheer and total inability to believe those things could happen and that someone like Jonah could have survived in the belly of a whale makes educated people say it is all bunk, it is impossible. If the stories are all taken literally most if not all would have been virtual impossibilities unless the Hand of God intervened and some miracle was performed to make them possible and educated people do not believe in miracles these days. But some or many stories were meant to be metaphors or a combination of a metaphor and an analogy. They were turtle and the hare or ant and the grasshopper stories where the only truth was the meaning behind them but not the actual stories themselves. Some were like the three little pigs in a way saying you had to have a firm foundation and strongly constructed belief and that sticks and hay beliefs will not be strong enough to get you through hard times. 

Now myself I ain&#8217;t no rocket scientist. I am smarter than the average bear, I have a 147 IQ and I did attend college but I did not go into the various sciences any more than I absolutely had to. The same goes with things like philosophy because I did nothing but butt heads with my philosophy professor all year and make him red faced and raise his blood pressure by arguing against what he was teaching and to pat myself on my back a little raising questions that he could not answer which very much upset him and a few times made the class laugh and he did not appreciate it, which was reflected in my grade, but to me what he was teaching was not philosophy in general but instead his personal philosophy and I was not about to blindly accept what he said when there were so many questions to be asked about how and why what he said was allegedly true. 

But in my case I find both the Bible and evolution to be lacking in many ways when it comes to explaining things and I also find them very similar in one way. Both have gaps and holes and in religions case the answer to the gaps and holes is faith, you have to believe. Religion is based on faith so that means there always has to be questions, they will always have to remain because if there were answers there would be no need for faith. Well evolution has many major gaps in it and the answer to them is faith, to believe. We are told that the answers are out there and all we have to do is believe and one day the answers will be found. Maybe they will and maybe they will not and at least until they are evolution is much more like religion than people who believe in evolution want to believe because it relies on faith and belief for many of its key elements just like religion does. 

People can point to certain portions of the theory of evolution and say, look there is proof. Well many portions of the Bible can be pointed to and cities and people and other things are known to have existed and again people can point at them and say, look there is proof. 

Both can show a degree of proof and both have major gaps that require faith and belief to cover the gaps.

I was once talking with a very intelligent far more educated man than myself and he went on and on about how God cannot exist and how the Bible is proof of that and how carbon dating and other forms of dating things are proof because the timeframe for life on and of the planet earth are so different between what the Bible teaches and carbon dating and other forms of dating things. After his long &#8216;sermon&#8217; I asked him a couple questions. I said if for a moment you could assume that God as described/defined in/by the Bible exists then you would have to accept that being omnipotent he would have known everything man would ever learn in the total amount of time that man exists and since religion is based on faith could it be possible that God created certain things in ways that he knew man could never and would never be able to figure out. I said is at all possible that God created things so as they aged they would at some point begin to age at an exponential rate but do so in a way that man&#8217;s technology could never discover and by doing so assure that man could never accurately date things from the past after a certain age. I said that would be one way to assure that for the length of human existence a need for faith and belief would be required to maintain true faith. He thought about it for a moment and with an odd look on his face he just said he had never thought about anything like that and that yes it could be possible. He then went on to think up various other ways that things could have been done that would keep man from ever being able to figure out certain things so the need for faith would remain vital for any true religious belief. He said that if God did exist as described/defined in the Bible he would have infinite wisdom far beyond that man could ever acquire and he would most definitely protect certain things from ever being able to be discovered to assure that faith and belief always remained the vital core to religion. He of course was not an instant convert to religion but he said no one had every asked him anything like that before and he had never thought of anything like that before because he just accepted that what man has discovered, that the technology that man has developed was accurate and reliable. I jokingly said that was just his faith in what is basically his religion and if that can rightly be questioned all the beliefs fall to pieces much like questioning the Great Flood and Jonah in the whales belly etc. tend to cause the more intelligent to lose their beliefs in God because they can no longer believe in what they have been told. Because some doubt may arise people have to question things and because we now live in an era where we expect and require proof to believe in something if proof is not able to be found or produced we find it very difficult to believe in something and we can no longer rely on faith but still it takes faith in the theory of evolution to fully believe it because of the number of gaps in it but because it is scientific people in this era are more likely to have faith in and belief in something scientific with gaps than they are to believe there is an invisible man in the sky with powers beyond our comprehension. 

In any era since scientific investigation has existed those involved knew there is much yet to be discovered but still they believed they knew enough to make certain claims and say they were certainties even though many were absurd. When trains were first invented it was believed that if they traveled at over 12mph the people riding on the trains would suffocate because at the time train cars were open and they would be unable to breath. Well an average horse of decent genetics and health can run at 30mph or faster and thoroughbred horses can top 40mph and quarter horses in short distance runs can to 50mph and horses had been ridden for ages and ages and no one riding one ever suffocated due to not being able to breath because of the speed at which they traveled but scientists for some inexplicable reason at one time did believe that if riding on/in an open car of a train if it went more than 12mph people would suffocate. Is that a wonderful example of the genius of scientists or what? 

Isaac Newton first figured out the fundamental nature of gravity in the late 1600&#8217;s. It wasn&#8217;t until fairly recently that a theory to actually explain why gravity exists was discovered and while it is accepted it is still a theory. The proof that gravity existed has always been there, it just took someone to notice it but the reason behind it took an extremely long period of time to find some rational scientific explanation to say why it exists. There have been many beliefs as to why gravity existed throughout the years but none held up to close scientific scrutiny over the ages so how many things that are accepted as being factual today might in fact be like gravity and in 10 or 50 or 1000 or more years turn out to be wrong and some totally different explanation for them come into existence? It is sort of like the 12mph train thing in that people tend to believe or need to believe that whatever era they live in that science has advanced so far that what is believed to be known has to be factual when it is not at all uncommon that as time passes new things are discovered that make scientific fact of yesterday to be incorrect. How many times has the smallest particle in existence been found and then later someone else has found something even smaller but for a while the old smallest particle found was believed to be scientific fact and was taught as being such instead of it just being taught as the smallest particle yet to be found but that others smaller might in fact exist?

People, more so the higher educated, like to or need to believe that we presently know so much that we can rule out many things and that others are pure indisputable facts and that we are capable saying so factually, just like the 12mph train thing. 

*There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy.*


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## tinyTURTLE (Feb 23, 2009)

to the above poster with the 147 IQ.
could you be be less concise?
sheesh, i read books, but not on the internets for grace jones' sake.


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## Brazko (Feb 23, 2009)

In 1906, when Albert Einstein published his Special Theory of Relativity, he was interviewed by a reporter from Chicago and was asked by that reporter if he believed in God. Einstein reply, a definitive "NO!!". 2 decades later in 1926, when Einstein published his General Theory of Relativity, he happen to be interviewed by that very same reporter and again the reporter asked him if he believed in God, but this time, Einstein prelied with a definitive "Yes!!"

What Changed between 1906/1926............Einstein had the opportunity to probe his science deep enough to reach the Mystical, and in doing so....... came to the realization that God did, in fact exist. He REalized that although True mysticism and True science are seemingly traveling in diametrically opposite directions, not only will they meet but _must_ meet.

WHY? Because Truth is Truth!! The ultimate truth of the mystical experience must be the same as the ultimate truth realized through the deepest of scientific explorations. In Reality, they are the same----if not in technique or philosophy, then in attempting to reach the True source of all existence: GOD.

I Wonder how smart Albert wuz?


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## NeoAnarchist (Feb 23, 2009)

i dont know if IQ has alot to do with it, but i dont really believe god is real, i believe there may be something out there that is more real. i like facts, the ones u can touch, see, taste, feel, smell even. and frankly there are none on God. and really if u think about it, the bible is nothing more than fairy tales. where are these monsters at now? these 30foot tall creatures? na, the bible has had so many people rewrite it, that now it just seems made up.


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## misshestermoffitt (Feb 25, 2009)

I agree with Cruzer......... Man created god..........


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## GoldenGanja13 (Feb 25, 2009)

I am a beleiver in God. We are but a speck of dust in a single galaxy, not to mention the Universe.
 Reports of Aliens Zooming around at light speed is something we can never dream of. Are brains can not come up with such technology nor an answer to these air craft that are being reported from pilots.
 Same with God, he is the Alpha Omega. We are just but a speck, to understand something so deep, well would proably blow are minds. That is where faith comes in and miracles are testements to his works.
 One day I beleive all of us will know the truth, and it will be like our living days was just a dream and the truth is something we always knew and understood but just could not fathom the truth while on earth.


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## pythiq (Feb 25, 2009)

I don't believe in god per se, but there are certainly things beyond our realm of consciousness, which science as we know it now can not explain definitively.

I've not bothered taking a proper IQ test, I don't feel the need to validate my intelligence with a number.


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## mistermark21 (Feb 25, 2009)

I belive in God. I mean the basics of Science even teaches that nothing comes from nothing, everything has to be created. I mean look at our beloved plant, the Ganja, even the very sight of it is beautiful. Everything natural has to have had a creator so intelligent that even the high IQ Scientists keep finding new things that make them rewrite their theory's. Im not saying all science is wrong, just that scientists like to tell themselves they're clever and think up lots of different idea's other than that there could be a God.

The very reason i got into growing Marijuana was that, the government have banned it. God created all things, therefore he created Marijuana. Is the government saying God made a mistake? How dare they try to ban a natural living thing, trying to make it extinct. Who know's the medicinal capabilities it has? Lets hope those big brain, high IQ scientist dont discover too late.


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## pythiq (Feb 26, 2009)

By that logic, mistermark, we should grow poppies, coca, belladonna, mushrooms, et cetera. I don't grow because it's illegal, I grow because I believe I have the right to. It's one thing to break rules because they are immoral and unjust, it's another to spite the prohibitors. Every plant has its place. I don't believe there is some god that decided to put plants on our planet for our use. I believe plants deserve as much respect as any animal, and not just as some resource for us to exploit. Pardon my rambling, I'm a bit stoned. I'm not so much disagreeing with you, but I don't believe in a single Creator. But to each their own, ya?


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## Dr. Green Brain (Feb 26, 2009)

Brazko,


Einstein said yes he believed in god, but he didn't believe in a god as a supernatural being that created "heaven and earth" and so forth. He believed in a much looser sense of god such as god is nature, much like John Muir (a similarly brilliant mind) did. In which case god could be anything in the natural world (or could just be the natural world), not what Christers are taught in the _Holly Bible_. Lets not also forget that Thomas Jefferson, one of the most brilliant people the world has ever known and one of our founding fathers, was a staunch atheist.

Also, it's not an argument of if you believe in god (in a christian sense) then you're stupid. It's just a study that shows that there is a trend to _not_ belive in highly inteligent people. Statistics, much like logic, cannot be argued.

You wonder how smart Albert "wuz"? Out of respect, I'm not even going to comment on that. 

And all this talk about the bible through out this thread... come on people! Look, weather you believe or not believe all the bible is, is a book of fables designed to guide you through life, love the people who are in it, and be a better person. Any true believer will probably tell you that they don't need a book to worship their god. 

More dastardly deeds are committed in the name of religion than any other cause. Who do you think is backing the so called "War on Drugs" that robs all of us of our civil rights and makes it so we have to act as criminals just to enjoy a little smoke.

I'll stop now, as I could go on for days. Thanks to whoever posted this, the article was a good read.


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## Brazko (Feb 26, 2009)

Dr. Green Brain said:


> Brazko,
> 
> 
> Einstein said yes he believed in god, but he didn't believe in a god as a supernatural being that created "heaven and earth" and so forth. He believed in a much looser sense of god such as god is nature, much like John Muir (a similarly brilliant mind) did. In which case god could be anything in the natural world (or could just be the natural world), not what Christers are taught in the _Holly Bible_. Lets not also forget that Thomas Jefferson, one of the most brilliant people the world has ever known and one of our founding fathers, was a staunch atheist.
> ...


 
.......UMmmm...You're right, it's not an arguement........, so all of that what you said about Einstein, Founding Fathers, Holy Bible (n ur case of speaking), and all it seems possible you can go on about.............and Albert wuuzzzz an....Satire attempt, sorry I missed.........

Keep spreading the knowledge and doing your Research......


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## Kant (Feb 26, 2009)

I would imagine the reason for the trend is because people with higher IQ generally have more education. Education (while not always) usually relies on science, which generally says that to claim anything as true substantial evidence must to support it. Even then it's not set it stone since we know our understanding of things is not perfect and thus subject to change.

So when they're presented with an idea (religion) that is incredibly inflexible and not supported in the same way that most scientific ideas are support, they tend to be more skeptical.


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## hom36rown (Feb 26, 2009)

Definitely not surprising.


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## Big P (Feb 26, 2009)

*i can prove god does not exist*


the simple fact that there are hundreds of religions in this world and only one can be right, means that 99.99999% of all the other religions are wrong and that 99.9999999% of religous people are actually praying to nothing!


i take it a step further and say if there's gonna be so many religions out there who insist they are right when we know by default that 99.9999% of them are wrong, then you can surmize that actually 100% of them are wrong


and there bees no god.




chew on that for a moment and tell me what you come up with


.


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## Zig Zag Zane (Feb 26, 2009)

god didnt create man, man created god.


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## balooser (Feb 26, 2009)

c'mon cruzer....just cause you beat jessica simpson on the myspace IQ test doesn't mean anything....lol....just jokes....I have to agree with bricktop, and want to add....the brain is a muscle, if you don't use it everyday it goes into atrophy like any muscle....bottom line...use it or lose it......at 13, i was diganosed as gifted with night tremors, add/adhd....a bit older now i realized i pissed away some opportunities in my life.....regret?....maybe some, but lifes experience makes us who we are....Knowing is half the battle! "G.I Joe"


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## mistermark21 (Feb 27, 2009)

pythiq said:


> By that logic, mistermark, we should grow poppies, coca, belladonna, mushrooms, et cetera. I don't grow because it's illegal, I grow because I believe I have the right to. It's one thing to break rules because they are immoral and unjust, it's another to spite the prohibitors. Every plant has its place. I don't believe there is some god that decided to put plants on our planet for our use. I believe plants deserve as much respect as any animal, and not just as some resource for us to exploit. Pardon my rambling, I'm a bit stoned. I'm not so much disagreeing with you, but I don't believe in a single Creator. But to each their own, ya?


pythiq - yeah man grow poppies, coca, belladonna, mushrooms etc... im not saying you should smoke, eat or snort em. I mean the fact that they're trying to stop us growing a damn plant is ridiculous.


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## CrackerJax (Feb 27, 2009)

It has always been explained to me that IQ is a test of one's ability to be LOGICAL, no matter the education level. Foundational knowledge is usually not the hinge point of an IQ test. It is the ability to reason. This is why people with higher IQ's doubt the existence of G*D, and certainly any man based religions. Not surprising at all. 


out.


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## tinyTURTLE (Feb 27, 2009)

Big P said:


> *i can prove god does not exist*
> 
> 
> the simple fact that there are hundreds of religions in this world and only one can be right, means that 99.99999% of all the other religions are wrong and that 99.9999999% of religous people are actually praying to nothing!
> ...


you can actualy lower the number of religions. because if you study them, all sects of chrisianity and Jews and muslims all worship the same god. It's true.


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## Big P (Feb 27, 2009)

tinyTURTLE said:


> you can actualy lower the number of religions. because if you study them, all sects of chrisianity and Jews and muslims all worship the same god. It's true.


 
im not talking about all the denominations, i consider all christians to be lumped in 1 religion

there are hundreds if not thousands of religions that have existed and still exist in this world.

to think that yours is the only right one is to lie to yourself as statistically

every religion is wrong except for one

i find it amusing how people laugh and say the religions of the myans or indians or pagans or whomever are total nonsense when they themselves believe in thier own silly nonsense. that same amusment u get when you think of the pagan religion is exactly what religionous people are doing today being idiots like the pagans. 

just cuz u guys think its true doesnt make it so, just like when the pagans thought thiers was true that wasnt so either

half the time religions are created by the smart and ambitious poeple in this world who want to have more control upon thier subjects whether for good or bad.

its like we if we are stranded on an island and I wanted to be the leader. I start playing on your fears(hell) and hopes(heaven) next thing you know i get to pork all your wives and get all the yummy food on the island while all you guys plow the fields while I plow your daughters

if you try to question me you will be damned to hell. so let her keep suckin

its just a way to dominate and control people, atleast thats why organized religion gets its start.


you think the Conqurer Muhamed really believed in his own religion?

or was it just a was to control his ever expanding empire?

for if you know that I am a simple mortal just like you wouldnt you be more prone to question my desicions and authority? maybe then you wouldnt be scared to slap my dick outa the gurls mouth and burn me alive at the stake, like I would deserve if I did such messed up things.

i mean look at leader accross the world they still use religion to gain power.

i say 95% of our polititions as smart as they are really know that god does not exist, but yet they play the game to get power and elected by the religious folks. pretending to be devout,

look how saddam use islam to manipulate, surely that butcher didnt really believe a god existed!


i just feel sorry for all the heterosexual priests that have lived empty lives without women all over a cold deception


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## pythiq (Feb 27, 2009)

mistermark21 said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/members/pythiq.html the fact that they're trying to stop us growing a damn plant is ridiculous.


absolutely agreed


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## Microdizzey (Feb 27, 2009)

Big P said:


> im not talking about all the denominations, i consider all christians to be lumped in 1 religion
> 
> there are hundreds if not thousands of religions that have existed and still exist in this world.
> 
> ...


Boy you are in a world of confusion. You hold on to such slanderous lies and distractive stereotypes. Take a step back and look at the big picture.

Blaming and pointing fingers at people for something you do not understand. This is ignorance at it's finest.

Of course there are thousands of religions. As there are thousands of ways to deceive a man. And thousands of ways to corrupt a man. Pick your favorite beverage. Only one of them is pure and untainted.


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## CrackerJax (Feb 27, 2009)

And the winner is......? (drum roll)




out.


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## Big P (Feb 28, 2009)

Microdizzey said:


> Boy you are in a world of confusion. You hold on to such slanderous lies and distractive stereotypes. Take a step back and look at the big picture.
> 
> Blaming and pointing fingers at people for something you do not understand. This is ignorance at it's finest.
> 
> Of course there are thousands of religions. As there are thousands of ways to deceive a man. And thousands of ways to corrupt a man. Pick your favorite beverage. Only one of them is pure and untainted.


 

i try to look at the big picture but all I see is us an empty space,

eventually all of this will be gone in a blink of an eye

is this what god wants for my children to die? is he going to let them suffer first?

ofcoarse he will..... if he does then i spit in his face, even if he does exist. but for this reason alone i know he cannot exist cuz if he did he would be evil.


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## bicycle racer (Feb 28, 2009)

your i.q. level shows your ability to reason and think your way through problems mine is 140 plus this does not mean you are automatically more intelligent but have the ability to be so if pursued. it is like a car with so much horsepower the potential is there but only some train the driving skills needed to use that power properly. as far as atheism im not one. as far as religion i see it as a crutch for the masses and a way to keep people scared and in line with what the people in power want this is factual if you know your history.in fact if jesus were alive now he would be condemming of many so called christians who hide behind faith and spout hatred and promote persecution. with the goal of increasing personal wealth and power. this was one of the things jesus was against it never stops suprising me how un-christian many christians are. anyone who believes others burn in hell indefinetly regardless of there actions simply because they dont follow christianity are very sick hatefull unintelligent people. this is not the god i want anything to do with when i hear people say there 'good god fearing people' it makes me laugh as a benevolent creator is not to be feared i could go on and on but it is really upsetting to think about. as far as inteligence and religion i cant say ive met a brilliant thinking devote religous person they just dont go together. again im no atheist ive had my own experieces and make decisions based on them im very science based but i must say i feel atheists are at a loss also but at least they dont kill people who disagree with there views unlike most religions. i cant understand why people feel science clashes with spirituality as for me the more i know of this world and beyond the more my thoughts strenthen on this subject i was an atheist for my child and teen years but can now see the forest for the trees. this study on religion and intelligence is no suprise there are also studys on repubs and dems suprise suprise the right wing types have lower intelligence and college education on average but a much higher rate of religous devotion. in all seriousness if you believe the bible word for word well god help you lol... my post is scattered as there is so much to say it would take weeks of thought but basically i think mainstream religion is the most destructive thing ever to have happened to mankind a true tragedy of epic proportions. p.s. my spelling leaves something to be desired i apologize.


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## Kash Krop (Feb 28, 2009)

Albert Einstein beleived in God,Nuff Said?


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## Microdizzey (Feb 28, 2009)

Big P said:


> i try to look at the big picture but all I see is us an empty space,
> 
> eventually all of this will be gone in a blink of an eye
> 
> ...


He doesn't want anyone to suffer. But he has no choice but to let it happen. He warned us not to be tempted by evil, but we couldn't resist. So many people (like you) hate him now. They want God out of the picture. If you were a loving God, and your precious creations hated you and never wanted to see you, how would you feel? Would you destroy them all? Or let them live without your assistance? God chose to let us live and deal with the darkness without his help. He knows many will come back to him when the darkness gets too apparent.

It says in the bible that the evil one is in control of the earth. And I'll tell you right now, the light in this world is fading fast.


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## Big P (Feb 28, 2009)

Microdizzey said:


> He doesn't want anyone to suffer. But he has no choice but to let it happen. He warned us not to be tempted by evil, but we couldn't resist. So many people (like you) hate him now. They want God out of the picture. If you were a loving God, and your precious creations hated you and never wanted to see you, how would you feel? Would you destroy them all? Or let them live without your assistance? God chose to let us live and deal with the darkness without his help. He knows many will come back to him when the darkness gets too apparent.
> 
> It says in the bible that the evil one is in control of the earth. And I'll tell you right now, the light in this world is fading fast.


 

i must say that is the best aregument i have ever heard, but the truth is too appearent for me 

if god decided to include the suffering I think that was a mistake., not how I would of done you guys if I was god........


 .


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## CrackerJax (Feb 28, 2009)

Explain how an omnipotent G*D has no choice......


out.


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## Otacon (Feb 28, 2009)

cruzer101 said:


> Mine is 138 and I believe man created god.


Same here.


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## bicycle racer (Feb 28, 2009)

albert einstein was not a atheist nor did he follow religion. why does god only talk to 1 crazy guy in the desert or wherever. all these prophets of different faiths are always alone when god comes down to speak come on how weak minded can followers be? if you dont know how to be a good person without fear of punnishment or instruction guess what your not a good person. if god wanted people to understand his purpose he would tell us. i remember a terrible event following an earthquake where a school was buried the children could be heard yelling for help for many days the majority died bad scary painfull deaths was this because there religion was improper or was god not paying attention.


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## Kash Krop (Feb 28, 2009)

bicycle racer said:


> albert einstein was not a atheist nor did he follow religion. why does god only talk to 1 crazy guy in the desert or wherever. all these prophets of different faiths are always alone when god comes down to speak come on how weak minded can followers be? if you dont know how to be a good person without fear of punnishment or instruction guess what your not a good person. if god wanted people to understand his purpose he would tell us. i remember a terrible event following an earthquake where a school was buried the children could be heard yelling for help for many days the majority died bad scary painfull deaths was this because there religion was improper or was god not paying attention.


I want to know how God created this world. I am not interested in this or that phenomenon, in the spectrum of this or that element. I want to know His thoughts; the rest are details." -- Albert Einstein

Not trying to debate religion with anyone here.My post about A.E. beleiving in God was in direct response to the subject line of this thread.
KK


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## hom36rown (Feb 28, 2009)

Bicycle racer is right, EInstein did not consider himself an atheist, and he did not follow any religion or believe in "god" in the traditonal sense. 

Einstein clarified his religious views in a letter he wrote in response to those who claimed that he worshipped a Judeo-Christian god: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein


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## yoyogrow (Feb 28, 2009)

I have a fairly high IQ and personally I am Buddhist. God is within you, you are your own god, and your actions reflect the journey you will take towards ultimate nirvana. Its amazing to get blazed and just think about things like this. I would suggest some of you try reiki (energy healing). It was the most amazing experience of my life, only made better by a bowl full of jack herrer.


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## PoseidonsNet (Feb 28, 2009)

Ummmm 

People with low IQ's believe something is true because silly studies say it

Einstein, Newton, Copernicus, Galileo, Churchill ..... etc etc


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## Brick Top (Feb 28, 2009)

Big P said:


> *i can prove god does not exist*
> 
> 
> the simple fact that there are hundreds of religions in this world and only one can be right, means that 99.99999% of all the other religions are wrong and that 99.9999999% of religous people are actually praying to nothing!
> ...


 
What I come up with is what one cousin who is a Lutheran minister and friend who is an Evangelical minister have said. The Bible and other MAJOR religions, and not crackpot religions, say there is only one true God but not only one true religion. 

Man has said there is only one true religion but the Bible and some other holy writings do not say that. Those that do were written by man and man does not dictate to God what is right or wrong.

So there is only one true God but many variations of religions that may call God by another name or worship him differently but nonetheless still worship Him in their way according to their practices be it kneeling every other moment or handling snakes. 

So there is no one true religion so your claim that 99.9999% of all religions are wrong is inaccurate and is proof of nothing so your proof that God does not exist does not exist.

Now if you pick some religion based on someone who was a human at one time, Jesus Christ excluded since He was the Son of God sent to live among humans but is one of the Three in One, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost (some say Spirit) he was not exactly human. But a religion based on some human that was supposedly a great person and who died and then in the teaching of the religion became a God those would be wrong since no man can become a God.


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## Microdizzey (Feb 28, 2009)

Big P said:


> i must say that is the best aregument i have ever heard, but the truth is too appearent for me
> 
> if god decided to include the suffering I think that was a mistake., not how I would of done you guys if I was god........
> 
> ...


It's punishment for our immoral behavior. God use to be a vengeful God before he flooded the world, now the suffering stays with us.

I don't want to push this on you or anything, just stating some biblical info. Keep searching if you are still uncertain. Every man and woman has the ability to find the truth. Being wise and patient is key.


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## bloodstreamfullagreen (Feb 28, 2009)

Big P said:


> *i can prove god does not exist*
> 
> 
> the simple fact that there are hundreds of religions in this world and only one can be right, means that 99.99999% of all the other religions are wrong and that 99.9999999% of religous people are actually praying to nothing!
> ...


 just because a some people write down a list of thing that god wants them to do an live by those gudelines to further feel closer to the one they worship and there differnt then the thousands of groups that do the same isnt sufficent evidence to prove that god doesnt exisit you might have prove religin is fake if thats what you were aiming for kudos to you but there are also things that are connected thoughout religns so maybe some parts are right and some are wroung or none are right. but uve smoked weed before so im guessing you feel that being stoned is to great to be only a chemical reaction inside you body there has to be more to it then that the only way i can truly decribe it is a religous experence or a divine feeling or i could be complely wroung who the fuck really knows


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## bicycle racer (Mar 1, 2009)

my beliefs are somewhat similar to what einstein felt. as far as mainstream religions buddhism doesnt bother me like the more persecuting religions. i guess you could say i just really take offence to the faiths that try to convert people and or persecute/kill them for living there own lives most religions live and let die/kill as opposed to live and let live. peace


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## CrackerJax (Mar 1, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Explain how an omnipotent G*D has no choice......
> 
> 
> out.


Still waiting Micro.....


out.


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## Babs34 (Mar 1, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Still waiting Micro.....
> 
> 
> out.


 [email protected] people with higher IQ's don't believe in God. I'm not telling my IQ....you'd all accuse me of lying. <<<big cheesy grin>>> Of course Einstein QUESTIONED God's "thoughts."
Pure sign of genius.


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## Babs34 (Mar 1, 2009)

*Precisely Cracker.....BINGO!!!*


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## Babs34 (Mar 1, 2009)

Babs34 said:


> *Precisely Cracker.....BINGO!!!*


"PRECISELY"
It has always been explained to me that IQ is a test of one's ability to be LOGICAL, no matter the education level. Foundational knowledge is usually not the hinge point of an IQ test. It is the ability to reason. This is why people with higher IQ's doubt the existence of G*D, and certainly any man based religions. Not surprising at all.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 1, 2009)

I'm sorry, was that a thread ender?  my bad.... Micro?? 

knock knock
who's there?
G*D
G*D who?



out.


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## Microdizzey (Mar 1, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Explain how an omnipotent G*D has no choice......
> 
> 
> out.


He does have choice. It's just that before Christ, people were very wicked. They would not stop sinning, they wanted him out of their lives. People were warned that he was not pleased, but they didn't care. They were too busy worshiping golden statues and screwing everything that has a hole.

He had to chose whether to wipe us all out forever, or let us live and give us another chance.

We're still alive, so I guess that means he does care. But as the bible says, the Evil One controls the earth. We were given a second chance, but in a very dark and corrupt world.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 1, 2009)

Since the Bible is not historically accurate, why do you quote it as such? You have piqued my curiosity.

By the way, you contradicted yourself. Choice, no choice...which is it? 

So a G*D with infinite choice has already predetermined every outcome? Sounds a bit anal, no? Improbable?

out.


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## Big P (Mar 1, 2009)

Microdizzey said:


> He does have choice. It's just that before Christ, people were very wicked. They would not stop sinning, they wanted him out of their lives. People were warned that he was not pleased, but they didn't care. They were too busy worshiping golden statues and screwing everything that has a hole.
> 
> He had to chose whether to wipe us all out forever, or let us live and give us another chance.
> 
> We're still alive, so I guess that means he does care. But as the bible says, the Evil One controls the earth. We were given a second chance, but in a very dark and corrupt world.


 
my freind if god was truely all powerful he could just snap his fingers and make everything cool and perfect

the fact that he does not can either mean he has the power but will not use it to make us happy

or its means he really doesnt have all the power after all


either way he cant be god if either those things are true.


cuz if i had the power to save your sisters life for example I would do it, or I would be cruel if I did not



if I didnt have the power to save her, I would not be god



so the simple fact thar there is suffering in this world can only be because of one of the following 3 reason, god it either:

1) cruel

2) Not all powerful

3) simply a figment of imagination


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## Microdizzey (Mar 1, 2009)

Big P said:


> my freind if god was truely all powerful he could just snap his fingers and make everything cool and perfect
> 
> the fact that he does not can either mean he has the power but will not use it to make us happy
> 
> ...


Look I can't prove anything to you. All I can say is that he wants YOU to come to HIM, not him finding you. He knows where you are, he's just waiting for you to acknowledge him. 

Life is the ultimate test, good luck with it. All religions say be kind and loving to one another. I think that is one thing we can all agree with.


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## Big P (Mar 1, 2009)

Microdizzey said:


> Look I can't prove anything to you. All I can say is that he wants YOU to come to HIM, not him finding you. He knows where you are, he's just waiting for you to acknowledge him.
> 
> Life is the ultimate test, good luck with it. All religions say be kind and loving to one another. I think that is one thing we can all agree with.


 

i smoke one in your honor sir


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## middlefingerhere (Mar 2, 2009)

My IQ as last messuered after a critical head injury sustained in a car accident was 138. I belive God and religon in general is a flawed human reaction to explain the unexplainabe, feel protected in times of weakness, and in control when things are beyond are scope of manipulation.

After 8 years of incarceration, a major car accident that should have killed you, and the loss of a 60k a year job...........One of three things will happpen to cope with life changes 
You will develope schizophrenia to pretend it never happened, or
You will develope a belief in God to assume the roll of a mental crutch so people call you religious instead of crazy or,
You will learn to grow Pot and supplement your income.
If its the latter like me you got a sweet story like
" Yes judge I'm an addict in need of treatment." 
"That was a very large grow op for an addiction any comments?"
"Yes your honor thats a result of my poor perception skills from a closed head injury. 30 plants seemed like a safe bet for a personal stash.
And I only grew it myself instead of buying it because I come from a poor unprivliged family thats left me with a lack of skill sets and poor reasoning abilities."

Sorry but in my opinion it sounds better then 
"I grew em to hide from the killer coffee beans that escaped the governments mind control facility."
or the classic
"God made me do it"


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## Farooq87 (Mar 2, 2009)

middlefingerhere said:


> My IQ as last messuered after a critical head injury sustained in a car accident was 138. I belive God and religon in general is a flawed human reaction to explain the unexplainabe, feel protected in times of weakness, and in control when things are beyond are scope of manipulation.
> 
> After 8 years of incarceration, a major car accident that should have killed you, and the loss of a 60k a year job...........One of three things will happpen to cope with life changes
> You will develope schizophrenia to pretend it never happened, or
> ...


So do you actually believe or is it just a ploy?


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## middlefingerhere (Mar 2, 2009)

Farooq87 said:


> So do you actually believe or is it just a ploy?


I think I stated my view quite clearly, I belive in what I wrote. Simply put religon is for the feeble minded who seek an explanation for that which they don't understand. I do not consider myself feeble minded and can except things that I may not comprehend. All things happen out of a series of choices that lead to an unfolding of consequences made by those decisions. The only one who can give a reason or explanation for those choices is the one who made the decision. So I guess if you wanted to grossly misinterpret my belief system you could call me a polytheist that believes everything is its own divine being.
(The quoted part of my previous post was for humor not out of a profound belief in the hypothetical statments)


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## Farooq87 (Mar 2, 2009)

My apologies, I miss-read, and got confused.


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## engineeredweed (Mar 2, 2009)

Hmmm well iq tests for the first part dont test real intelligence because they require knowledge and if intelligence is to be based on knowledge then intelligence is just a word people use to describe their wealth of knowledge.


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## engineeredweed (Mar 2, 2009)

Big P said:


> *i can prove god does not exist*
> 
> 
> the simple fact that there are hundreds of religions in this world and only one can be right, means that 99.99999% of all the other religions are wrong and that 99.9999999% of religous people are actually praying to nothing!
> ...


That's a shit argument mate, try again.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

engineeredweed said:


> Hmmm well iq tests for the first part dont test real intelligence because they require knowledge and if intelligence is to be based on knowledge then intelligence is just a word people use to describe their wealth of knowledge.



You are incorrect. IQ tests measure a person's ability to use logic. Nothing more than an 8th grade education is needed to take an accurate IQ test.
You might be thinking of SAT'S

Try again.



out.


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## Motobomb62 (Mar 2, 2009)

<P>


GoldenGanja13 said:


> <FONT color=blue>I am a beleiver in God. We are but a speck of dust in a single galaxy, not to mention the Universe.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>Reports of Aliens Zooming around at light speed is something we can never dream of. Are brains can not come up with such technology nor an answer to these air craft that are being reported from pilots.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>Same with God, he is the Alpha Omega. We are just but a speck, to understand something so deep, well would proably blow are minds. That is where faith comes in and miracles are testements to his works.</FONT></P>
> <P><FONT color=#0000ff>One day I beleive all of us will know the truth, and it will be like our living days was just a dream and the truth is something we always knew and understood but just could not fathom the truth while on earth.</FONT>


</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>No offense GoldenGanja,&nbsp;but I am using your writing as an example of ignorance. The assumptions that there is something more; that we are more than just another ant in the farm; is ignorance. </P>
<P>Unfortunately I believe that religion is used as a crutch for the weak and oppresed. When allowed to, or better yet guided in free, un-restricted thinking one can come to their own conclusions about existence. From that, you can choose the facts that have been proven by science; (side note:&nbsp;Science and Math.... why are they the only universal languages.... Because <STRONG>Everyone</STRONG> whether human or not abides by their "laws".... How many Religions/Gods are there. so how can <STRONG>Any&nbsp;</STRONG>be<STRONG> </STRONG>correct????) Or you can&nbsp;persue a <EM>group of individuals</EM> beliefs, conform your life to&nbsp;<STRONG>Their</STRONG> style,&nbsp;continuously persuing acceptance, and most of the time even ending up supporting them financially. That;&nbsp;I consider&nbsp;to be another BS factor of religion that another forum could be devoted to. </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>As for the topic of the thread; IQ scores are bogus as the equations factor in age and therefore skew the&nbsp;results of being an accurate measure of any individuals intelligence against the remaining population... Except where applied to&nbsp;homogenous groups. </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>That bieng said, I am a Mech. Engineering Senior and have the unfortunate experience of going to campus and dealing with highly educated individuals who even with their strong beliefs in science and math have even a stronger belief in the teachings of their Sunday morning Pastor. In fact they seem to Blindly&nbsp;absorb&nbsp;these&nbsp;lessons more&nbsp;than those of their professors. </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Finally: Rather than solely basing the belief in God on IQ we should incorporate the individuals surroundings; their family, friends, race, associatons&nbsp;and community where they grew up. From such&nbsp;like groups, their faith, or lack there of will have no correlation with IQ.</P>

hmmmm.. I dont know whats up with the coding.... sorry this is my first post.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

The reason why age is used as a variable is because your strength in logic should INCREASE as you age.... it helps in maintaining accuracy...and they are accurate.


out.


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## AfghanBoy (Mar 2, 2009)

i posted my rant on another thread the other day (vote: do you beleive in god). One question for my god believing friends :

The bible says god created the earth and everything in it around 6-10,000 years ago. So how does that corloate with the known fact that the earth is around 5billion years old?

We have several atomic clocks that all point to roughly the same date

(shit Darwin would have been proud of me)


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

AfghanBoy said:


> i posted my rant on another thread the other day (vote: do you beleive in god). One question for my god believing friends :
> 
> The bible says god created the earth and everything in it around 6-10,000 years ago. So how does that corloate with the known fact that the earth is around 5billion years old?
> 
> ...


Pretty simple really.... they dismiss the 6 billion year data.

here's a real stumper using the Bible...

Since there is a gap in Christianity after the SUPPOSED death of Jesus of at least 60 years...what happened? greates thing ever, and then everyone forgot? 

Then again there is paul (saul) of tsarsus, who was the link between Jesus (supposedly) and the first gospels of Mark (mark who?) Paul is the overwhelming source for all gospels which followed...many years later. 
Paul wrote some 80,000 words about Christianity. 

He never heard about jesus... (?)
He never heard of a virgin birth... (?)
He never heard of miracles...(?)
He never heard of Mary, Joseph, herod, John the baptist.
He never quotes Jesus.
Paul doesn't know anything about the story of Jesus except three things.... 
1.) Christ put on the cross
2.) the resurrection
3.) the Ascension.

Paul never places these things on earth but in a mythical realm.

Paul is not even aware that Jesus is a human being...
Hebrews 8:4 "If Jesus HAD been on earth, he would not even have been a priest."

This is the link to the Bible..... it becomes pretty obvious that Jesus was PLANTED later as a real person.

He NEVER existed.....


out.


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## HailTheLeaf (Mar 2, 2009)

This topic could be a book...anyone here see "Religulous"? I saw it again last night, I think the figure was 93% of scientists are atheist or agnostic. It also brings up some very good points, like that Jesus and every other major religious prophet today and their "stories" were all ripped off from the Egyptians. The whole virgin birth thing, the 12 disciples, miracles, rising from the dead, the whole bit is repeated in almost every major religion and all came from Horus. Some of these religious nuts are really scary, I recommend "Bible Camp" for more on that...

Religion has caused more death, suffering, genocide, land theft, and general misery throughout the world than anything else, so here's my view: Nature is the only thing I need to worship, because it gives us all we need. The world is round, everything works in circles, we're all one with nature and each other, every creature has a purpose and as much of a right to be here as we do. You have no control over where you'll be born, what color skin you'll have or what sex organs you'll have, so fighting over this is absolutely stupid and makes no sense. Nature put you here and nature can take you away, there's no imaginary man in the sky, only what we have to work with here. This is hell, and could be heaven if people weren't killing the earth and each other over which imaginary man in the sky is the correct one to hear voices from.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

There is not a single original thought in the Bible.... not one.


out.


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## middlefingerhere (Mar 2, 2009)

AfghanBoy said:


> i posted my rant on another thread the other day (vote: do you beleive in god). One question for my god believing friends :
> 
> The bible says god created the earth and everything in it around 6-10,000 years ago. So how does that corloate with the known fact that the earth is around 5billion years old?
> 
> (shit Darwin would have been proud of me)


The belief that the earth is 4.5 billion years old is a faith based belief as is religion. Fact means with 100% accuracy. The old earth and young earth dating methods both lack sificent evidence with which to make them 100% scientific because their is a chance that the unknown could discredit either methodology. However to discredit the old earth theory would take far more errors then the widely unexcepted creationist theory of the young earth.
Two things to easily oppose your argument would be the fact....theory that in the old testament humans lived to ages well above 500 years old and the 10,000 years comes from the statments in revealations about the end of the earth. Which could point to the fact that the way we calculate time now and at that time is two diffrent systems. Also the unfortunate fact of the matter is the bible states God created the earth within 7 days Adam and Eve was after the seventh day of rest but what we do not know is how long after that seventh day they were created. Our perception of time and so called Gods perception could be entirely diffrent. 
The funny thing about religious belief systems is the fact that they left out just enough details so that science can not completely discredit the claims without a little faith.
So whether your beliefs lie in science or religion the fact remains, you must have a little faith to discredit either system with the other. 
Considering faith as fact makes you as radical in your belief system as any religous nut out there. 

(Shit at least Darwin was smart enough to conceal his ignorance as theory)

People with higher IQ's are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study.

I guess you just kept the argument alive that people with lower IQ's are just as inclined not to believe in God as anyone else


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

Any serious scientist will never present a new hypothesis as fact. that sort of lazy methodology is only incorporated by religious institutions. Now that is embarrassing. Notice how he skipped the tough posts.


out.


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## ragged crushing (Mar 2, 2009)

my IQ is 120 and i say religion is the new racism so [email protected] jesus, [email protected] allah yet recognize the dhali llama for being the outer realm representative. everything we ever searched for was within...


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## HailTheLeaf (Mar 2, 2009)

Hey, Jesus had the right messages, his current "followers" just don't pay attention to them or practice them at all. Instead of concentrating on being peaceful and understanding towards everything on earth, making sure everyone has shelter, is treated well, and no one goes hungry like Jesus taught, most of his current christians are intolerant and create war, pollution, and death, are greedy, and show only disgust and apathy towards the poor. Jesus was a hippy.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

Jesus had NO message. Jesus was and still is a myth.


out.


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## engineeredweed (Mar 2, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> You are incorrect. IQ tests measure a person's ability to use logic. Nothing more than an 8th grade education is needed to take an accurate IQ test.
> You might be thinking of SAT'S
> 
> Try again.
> ...


hmm many psychologists agree.. i can't believe people let themselves be constrained by a number. It's just another of societies horrible norms.


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## middlefingerhere (Mar 2, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Any serious scientist will never present a new hypothesis as fact. that sort of lazy methodology is only incorporated by religious institutions. Now that is embarrassing. Notice how he skipped the tough posts.
> 
> 
> out.


 I ask you to reread my post before you light up your blunt so you can understand what I wrote. All I was tring to show was that religion can neither be substantiated nor disproven through science. Your post about Paul and Jesus does nothing but raise questions about a belief system that, had you read my previous posts would see does not align with my personal beliefs. Its embarassing when you misinterpret what you read. Try to keep up with the conversation will ya.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

Since my post about paul was not directed at you...maybe you should put down the blunt.

History is all that is needed to disprove Christianity. Just a quick perusal will show the falsehoods.


out. :blsmoke;


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## middlefingerhere (Mar 2, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Since my post about paul was not directed at you...maybe you should put down the blunt.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## CrackerJax (Mar 2, 2009)

My posts were directed towards Microdizzy. He has still skipped them. I knew he would, since there is no answer. 

My post was certainly not directed at you, but you seem intent on answering it.


out.


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## Big P (Mar 3, 2009)

Ha!


after all this talk about iq's i took the test, just got my results back,

131 


*Descriptive Classifications of Intelligence Quotients* *IQ**Description**% of Population*
*130+**Very superior **2.2%*
120-129Superior 6.7%
110-119High average 16.1%
90-109Average 50%
80-89Low average 16.1%
70-79Borderline 6.7%
Below 70Extremely low 2.2%

140 Top Civil Servants; Professors and Research Scientists.
*130 **Physicians and Surgeons; Lawyers; Engineers (Civil and Mechanical)*
120 School Teachers; Pharmacists; Accountants; Nurses; Stenographers; Managers.
110 Foremen; Clerks; Telephone Operators; Salesmen; Policemen; Electricians.
100+ Machine Operators; Shopkeepers; Butchers; Welders; Sheet Metal Workers.
100- Warehousemen; Carpenters; Cooks and Bakers; Small Farmers; Truck and Van Drivers.
90 Laborers; Gardeners; Upholsterers; Farmhands; Miners; Factory Packers and Sorters.



And to think all the brains Ive wasted smokin pot I could have been a surgeon

would anyone like me to operate on them


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## CrackerJax (Mar 3, 2009)

That's why IQ measures POTENTIAL, not ACTUALITY.  

So no, don't get near me with a scapel...


out.


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## jfgordon1 (Mar 3, 2009)

Brazko said:


> In 1906, when Albert Einstein published his Special Theory of Relativity, he was interviewed by a reporter from Chicago and was asked by that reporter if he believed in God. Einstein reply, a definitive "NO!!". 2 decades later in 1926, when Einstein published his General Theory of Relativity, he happen to be interviewed by that very same reporter and again the reporter asked him if he believed in God, but this time, Einstein prelied with a definitive "Yes!!"
> 
> What Changed between 1906/1926............Einstein had the opportunity to probe his science deep enough to reach the Mystical, and in doing so....... came to the realization that God did, in fact exist. He REalized that although True mysticism and True science are seemingly traveling in diametrically opposite directions, not only will they meet but _must_ meet.
> 
> ...


[youtube]SQLOuL0qa5I[/youtube]


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## engineeredweed (Mar 3, 2009)

mine is 87.. gah!


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 3, 2009)

"It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." -Albert Einstein.


Kash Krop said:


> Albert Einstein beleived in God,Nuff Said?


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## Brazko (Mar 3, 2009)

jfgordon1 said:


> [youtube]SQLOuL0qa5I[/youtube]


 
so Y is there  still (itsa cruel process), thanks for da info, I"ma Pantheist Maw' , whew!!!! I thought I was stuck being an atheist.......they suck 2 


check this out http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/


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## CrackerJax (Mar 3, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly." -Albert Einstein.


It's only natural for churchers to repeat lies till they believe them to be true. They have been taught well.


out.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 3, 2009)

And just as an aside...Einstein's IQ was never officially measured.He had a hell of a problem doing simple mathematics, but he was a brilliant physicist.Some folks have theorized he may have been a bit of a savant..... And, also, someone else mentioned Galileo, copernicus, etc....all folks who never had their IQ measured.And Galileo had good reason to capitulate, the catholic church rode his ass until he died. Since most mentioned were NOT modern men,it stands to reason that they were men of their times, in the grip of the superstition of their times.Many other great and intelligent men were brave enough to be agnostics or atheists.Take our founding fathers.
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?"[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816[/FONT] 
John adams
 




 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason."[/FONT] Ben Franklin
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -in Poor Richard's Almanac[/FONT] 
 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise."[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] James Madison -letter to Wm. Bradford, April 1, 1774[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT] 
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession."[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif] -Spoken by Abraham Lincoln, quoted by Joseph Lewis[/FONT] 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half of the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we call it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind.[/FONT] 
Thomas Paine
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Historian Barry Schwartz writes: "George Washington's practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian... He repeatedly declined the church's sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary... Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative." [New York Press, 1987, pp. 174-175][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]  .[/FONT] 

 [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif].[/FONT]


CrackerJax said:


> It's only natural for churchers to repeat lies till they believe them to be true. They have been taught well.
> 
> 
> out.


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## Johnnyorganic (Mar 3, 2009)

Farooq87 said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-%27less-likely-to-believe-in-God%27.html
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W4M-4SD1KNR-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04/29/2008&_alid=759868596&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=6546&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bdb3ca48b21fdb2959f6f8ce4b6001de
> 
> Discuss....


*Who cares?* I don't know anything about god. Never met one personally, but I would *never* label another person *stupid* for being a *believer*.

Religion is a deeply *personal* choice. As a *free* man, what I *believe* has *no* bearing on *anyone* else. And what others believe is *none of my business*.


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## bicycle racer (Mar 4, 2009)

i have noticed reading on this forum and in other discussions that people arguing against religion(atheists/agnostics etc..) have thoughts and points to there posts. where as the religious people just spin there wheels and do not make much sense or articulate very well it is just blind following very scary. religion simply is a superstition and a crutch for weak minded individuals who cannot or choose not to think on there own.


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## Brick Top (Mar 4, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> That's why IQ measures POTENTIAL, not ACTUALITY.


 
That right there shows how ludicrous it is to use ones belief in God or lack of belief in God and basing it on the person&#8217;s IQ as if is proof the person is higher educated or more intelligent. 

They may have the ability to if they have the desire and motivation to become higher educated and more intelligent but someone with the highest IQ that follows his father&#8217;s footsteps and does get a higher education and instead takes over the family business of pumping out septic tanks will never be as educated as someone with a lower IQ who does get a higher education. 

My IQ is 147 and while I did attend and graduate college I majored in business and then ended up a American franchise car dealer as a part owner and then we sold our dealership and purchased a marina and became a boat dealer. We purchased a small run down marina that did not sell boats and turned it into the largest marina on the 50,000 plus acre lake we were on and became the second largest dealer in the U.S. for the type of pontoon boat we sold and we did it in a very rural area.

I myself averaged 200 new boats sold every season which made me the number one salesperson in the U.S. for our line of boats for four years in a row. I used my intelligence to sell our product and could do it because I not only knew our product like the back of my hand but also knew all our competitors products like the back of my hand and could therefore sell against them. I would tell people about the boat they were comparing to ours, not in a negative way but only in a comparative way, and they would go back and compare and talk to the salesperson and come back and purchase from me and tell me that when they brought up things I mentioned about the other boats and asked the salesperson questions about it they normally did not have a clue and either had to look up the information or just say they did not know. 

Then we sold the marina and that was why I was able to retire at the age of 49.

So I became educated in what I needed to be educated in and then used my intelligence to my advantage but I would never come close to saying I am as educated as many people who possess a lower IQ who went into other fields of study and different lines of work. 

If you do not use your gifts to their fullest potential someone less gifted will pass you when it comes to knowledge if they fully use their lesser potential. So IQ alone is not in any way a measurement of intelligence or education but only one of the capacity to become educated and intelligent. 

So if I were one of those asked if I believed in God or not and was then listed by my IQ level people would look at my level and say wow, he is as or more intelligent than a physician or a scientist or an attorney or those at the upper levels of government (which I would find to be somewhat contradictory considering the sheer ignorance of those at the upper levels of government) when in fact all I did was sold cars and boats and ran two businesses in a small rural Southern town and never fully utilized my potential and became as educated and as intelligent as many with a lower IQ. 

I top most people when it comes to capability to learn but when it comes to education and gathered knowledge I am not and never will be in the same league as many with less capability who fully utilized their potential and became more educated and gathered more knowledge in their lifetime. 

So why would my belief be more valid than someone else&#8217;s who has a lower IQ level? Just because mine topped theirs by 5 points or 11 points or whatever? They are higher educated and have far more knowledge and have proven that they more fully utilize their potential than I have so to me their belief should be more valid than mine. 

Also possessing a high IQ does not mean that someone will necessarily be able to figure out anything and everything they attempt to do. There are no known records of Albert Einstein ever having taken an IQ test. The estimates of his IQ vary widely but most so called experts guess that it was roughly 183. 

My ex-neighbor has an IQ of 198. He worked at Duke University doing DNA research and has since been transferred to a Duke University operated facility in Miami and heads the department. 

One day he came over and asked if I would help him with something. His lawn tractor needed a new belt, one that drives the blades, and he could not figure out how to remove the mower deck. I helped him but I mainly just told him what to do so he would then learn it and be able to do it alone the next time. I told him to pay attention to the routing of the old belt before he removed it. When it came time to install the new belt he could not figure out how to route it to save his life. I showed him and he said he had it but later in the summer he snapped the new belt and had to replace it once again he was back asking for help because he still could not do it alone. 

So there is an example of someone intelligent enough to understand the secrets and workings of DNA, something I know nothing at all about, but yet he could not figure out something as simple as changing the mower deck belt on his lawn tractor not only the first time he needed to do so but also not all that much later after having been taught how to do it. 

Someone&#8217;s IQ level and overall intelligence can work in mysterious and limited ways. Some things will come easily to them and when it comes to other things they may be and remain clueless or next to clueless. 

So when it comes to two things, creationism or the Big Bang Theory and the Theory of Evolution, how or why is their personal opinion any more valid than that of anyone else&#8217;s? Both creationism and The Big Bang Theory require faith to believe in them in that neither one has been conclusively proven and are both are no more than chosen beliefs. 

One has a book, well actually several books, that tell people how things allegedly occurred and the other is basically a belief based on what is considered to be a cause and effect where a supposed effect was looked at and then a cause for it was theorized. 

Both belief structures have holes and gaps in them that require a leap of faith for them to be accepted so in essence one is a belief based on the existence of some higher being that religious writings claim to exist and the other is a belief based on a theory devised by man. 

In a way both are religions even though some came into existence thousands of years ago and the other much later in time and the main similarity between the two beliefs is the need to hold a solid faith in core beliefs that are unproven and their main difference is what each ones core belief is. 

Both belief structures have holes and gaps in them that require a leap of faith for them to be accepted so in essence one is a belief based on the existence of some higher being that religious writings claim to exist and the other is a belief based on a theory devised by man.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 4, 2009)

yes, of course IQ is not the end all barometer of intelligence. It is however a good measurement of one's ability to be logical. It is no surprise that over 90% of scientists are either agnostic/atheist. 

And of course IQ (intellect quotient) does not mean EQ (economic quotient).

Can highly educated people fall into the myth of religion? Absolutely! Everyone has their blind spots and myth is something hard wired into the human brain as a coping mechanism I believe. Many thousands of years ago when primordial man was running through the forest with a hungry lion after his ass, the thought that there must be something better than this!!  And so it began. We are verbal creatures and we love to tell stories, retelling them and reworking them. This is how the Bible was produced.

Now of course if one is educated and ACTUALLY reads the Bible....it is quite OBVIOUS that it is not a historical, but rather an allegorical story as was the writing style of those times, unless you were a scribe. the Bible was not written by scribes. Heck, we don't even know who the majority of the authors really were! So, the Bible being the "living word" is preposterous from the get go. 

I have absolutely no problem with folks leaning on an allegorical story for support.

I do have a problem with folks who insist it is true. It is not true.

That is why a MAJORITY of the educated do NOT believe. It does not mean however, that all educated people can see through the mirage which has been set up by the church, for power and money.

That's all 


out.


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## Big P (Mar 4, 2009)

Brick Top said:


> That right there shows how ludicrous it is to use ones belief in God or lack of belief in God and basing it on the persons IQ as if is proof the person is higher educated or more intelligent.
> 
> They may have the ability to if they have the desire and motivation to become higher educated and more intelligent but someone with the highest IQ that follows his fathers footsteps and does get a higher education and instead takes over the family business of pumping out septic tanks will never be as educated as someone with a lower IQ who does get a higher education.
> 
> ...


 
nice work bricktop, i hope i can retire like that too at some point. 

my goal is to not have to work anymore, and instead of going to work in the morning I will make my new job working out and being helthy untill say maybe lunch time

then ill just chill and play with the kids. well actully by then i guess it will be grandkids


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## Schwaggg (Mar 6, 2009)

I love how everyone here who stated their IQ is basically at genius level. Apparently the "average" of 100 isnt common among us tokers? You people need to go sign up for MENSA with your IQ's jeeze. 


But to add my opinion: My IQ as of like 15 years ago (when I was very young and was tested to join those elementary school "gifted programs") is 135. I have no clue if its changed since then. BUT I am also agnostic, adding to the many many high IQ people who are not believers. Logically and rationally, how can people believe in something that has NO proof?


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## FLoJo (Mar 7, 2009)

i think it is silly to think that everything around us.. not just on this planet but in our galaxy.. our galaxy which is in space, where there is an infinite amount of galaxies expanding through the vacuum... just happened by accident.. a big bang.

one of the few things that we know for sure about this energy field that swirls around us is that energy cannot be created or destroyed, it can only change forms. 

if this is true then that means that every star, every galaxy expanding, every planetary orbit had to come from somewhere. it didn't just show up after two molecules collided, that's just ludicrous. i could go into all the technicalities but that is a totally different thread...

anyways all of this energy, life, space, was created by something... whether you want to call it a god, or a cosmically intertwined energy continuum, or whatever.

now, as far as religion goes, if you go back and study ancient religions, they all have many correlating stories such as giants among men, gods on earth, great floods etc. and they also have many correlating ideas such as treating others well, not to kill each other, be a good person and whatnot..

the bible contains many of these themes and stories, even more so when you look at the books of the bible that were "voted" out by the church like enoch, gospels of thomas, 14 books of apocrypha, acts of peter and the apostles, not to mention parts of the books that have descriptions of a creation of "man" before adam in the kabbalah with lilith, and other aspects which battled the direction the church was going, and the control it had over the people...

anyways more people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else.. are these holy warriors crusaders of god, or vicious murderers? or does god have mercy because they were mislead? what about all the barbarians on the other side? were they punished and banished to hell because they did not have the privelage of being born in israel, or england instead of an eastern nation? what about the numerous corruptions in the church, and the use of religion as a tool of control for thousands of years? what about the priests who rape little boys and are just moved to different chapters of the church? christian leaders seem to be more evil and twisted than the so called heretics in other religions such as the buddhists and taoists... but both sides of the coin can be debated so i dont want to get into that..

the point is that i dont see how a god would create something so beatiful, not only on this earth but throughout our infinite universe.. then confine us to this planet, and put us in this epic battle between good and evil just as some kind of sick test to punish those who cant see past the hypocricy of the church? and the various historical flaws in the bible? and the similarities of other religions? what kind of god is that?

that being said, heres what i believe.. 

i believe that we are spiritual beings trapped within an earlthy vessel. no doubt about it.. i believe that we are trapped by our senses into a reality that is engrained into us by our surroundings.. ancient civilizations were supposedly so barbaric, however they had a much deeper understanding of the world around us, and astrology, and spirituality than most people care to admit... i believe that over time we have degressed from spirituality, to reality, and have forgotten our spiritual roots..

we are in a life long struggle to find our spirit, be in touch with our cosmic energy, and to fight off the distractions of the world around us. 

i believe that there is a spiritual world going on all around us that we cannot see or interact with.. call it a dimension, call it an alternate universe or whatever.. but is it so hard to believe? we have radio waves, microwaves, infra red, radiation and all kinds of different energies passing through our body every milisecond that we cannot see, hear, taste smell, or feel, but that does not mean that they arent there.. 

when we die, i believe that our spirit is released into our next life, which is a spiritual life.. back to the law that no energy can be created or destroyed.. when we die, that energy field that has been coarsing through us doesnt just stop and dissappear and go cold, it changes form. what form is what we do not know, and that is the quest that we look for our whole lives...

so in short, i do believe we are spiritual beings, i do beleive we were created by something, at some time, and i do not believe that there is any one religion, or any one path to a heaven or a hell (which was created by the church in the first place).. i believe that nobody will be able to tell you what it is until you get there.. 

FLo


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## CrackerJax (Mar 7, 2009)

Why would any SUPREME being design a world based on carnage...

out.


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## crunked (Mar 7, 2009)

Johnnyorganic said:


> *Who cares?* I don't know anything about god. Never met one personally, but I would *never* label another person *stupid* for being a *believer*.
> 
> Religion is a deeply *personal* choice. As a *free* man, what I *believe* has *no* bearing on *anyone* else. And what others believe is *none of my business*.


It's just an opinion up for debate, kind of like whether or not marijuana should be legal, or how the economy is going to affect us... I think any opinion is nobodies business until they voice it, and people are encouraged to voice their opinions on God's existence/lack their of if they so choose. Nobody is being forced here to give their opinion.


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## Brazko (Mar 7, 2009)

Schwaggg said:


> I love how everyone here who stated their IQ is basically at genius level. Apparently the "average" of 100 isnt common among us tokers? You people need to go sign up for MENSA with your IQ's jeeze.
> 
> 
> But to add my opinion: My IQ as of like 15 years ago (when I was very young and was tested to join those elementary school "gifted programs") is 135. I have no clue if its changed since then. BUT I am also agnostic, adding to the many many high IQ people who are not believers. Logically and rationally, how can people believe in something that has NO proof?


 well, i'm not here to debate how some 1 believes in GOD,.....but one is logically and rationally able to believe whateva if there is evidence......

Let me explain.........., love, hate, joy, anger, etc. are none tangible, but thay are felt and recognized by all......no matter whether yours, mine, or others interpetations may differ......Hopefully, I may claim all have had some experience with these emotions..... I say claim b/c they are evident to only you in respect.

So in short, a person can believe through experience, and through experience, find evidence that is physical, or intangible, that may further reinforce, or either dissipate that belief and possibly awaken a higher understanding, which virtually means nothing as well, if it is not brought forth in evidence......

Sorry, I neva took, (or remember) taking a IQ test, not recently anyway, but here Ill throw this out there.......1 of my favorite # is 45,.......My IQ is 45.....so I guess that puts me on the wrong side of the fence (aaayyyy) 

schwaggg....my answer is not right tho!! I just like yapping (lol) but thanks for asking.....respectfully


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## Johnnyorganic (Mar 7, 2009)

crunked said:


> It's just an opinion up for debate, kind of like whether or not marijuana should be legal, or how the economy is going to affect us... I think any opinion is nobodies business until they voice it, and people are encouraged to voice their opinions on God's existence/lack their of if they so choose. Nobody is being forced here to give their opinion.


Who said anything about a forced opinion?

My *opinion* was not directed against those offering theirs.

Correct me if I am wrong, but the premise of this thread seems to be that studies indicate that less intelligent people cling to religion. It simply seemed like an opportunity to bash religious, or less intelligent, folks. 

My *opinion* is such an exercise seems a shade arrogant and condescending. An exercise which, in my *opinion*, serves to do the opposite of encouraging a free and open exchange of ideas, or *opinions*. As evidenced by the paucity of religious posters on this thread.


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## crunked (Mar 7, 2009)

Johnnyorganic said:


> Who said anything about a forced opinion?
> 
> My *opinion* was not directed against those offering theirs.
> 
> ...


It wasn't posted as "*People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study - because they're so much smarter!"

(Bold got stuck on here for some reason, not meant to be all in bold)

It was posted as "**People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study. - DISCUSS"

**There are still many valid arguments against the accuracy of this argument or what it may be trying to hint at. Like one person already mentioned, you're more likely to get a higher IQ if you're more educated, have had more science pumped into your brain, and hence probably use evidence and proof to backup your beliefs. The point of the posting as far as I can tell wasn't meant to be menacing, just to start a debate.

The posters who are offended are offended more than likely because they are not comfortable with the results of the study that suggests people with lower IQ's tend to believe in God more than those with higher IQ's. Uncomfortable - that's what makes for a good debate. If the claim was "all IQ's more or less believe the same" it would be a very boring debate indeed.
*


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## Johnnyorganic (Mar 7, 2009)

crunked said:


> It wasn't posted as "*People with higher IQs are less likely to believe in God, according to a new study - because they're so much smarter!"
> 
> (Bold got stuck on here for some reason, not meant to be all in bold)
> 
> ...


I don't recall writing anything about offensive posts.

This entire thread seems to be an opportunity for an intellectual circle jerk. "Look how smart *we* are!" 

As far as intelligence versus religious views. Noodle this out:

I am agnostic, yet I use currency which clearly states on it '*In God We Trust*.' Furthermore, I live in a state where churches, synagogues, mosques, etc. are *tax exempt*, which means they are *subsidized* by *me*.

Now tell me, who has the upper hand? The less intelligent religious types, or me - the free thinker?


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## crunked (Mar 7, 2009)

Johnnyorganic said:


> I don't recall writing anything about offensive posts.
> 
> This entire thread seems to be an opportunity for an intellectual circle jerk. "Look how smart *we* are!"
> 
> ...


For the offensive posts comment, I was under the impression you thought this thread "unworthy" because it offended readers/was aimed at offending readers. But even if it is a circle jerk thread, let them jerk each other off!

As far as your agnostic stance I'm not sure if you were asking for my two cents? It sounds like were though.. I think it makes sense to be agnostic if you haven't bothered debating the issue of God very much, but to have searched for God, searched for proof, read arguments for/against His existence, or anything along those lines and then still remain agnostic is kind of like saying "I don't know what I believe in regards to black matter" after taking courses on cosmology that cover black matter. You may not know much about the theories for and against black matter right now, and will undoubtedly never see black matter, but you can still make a decision after you've been informed of the arguments for and against it. So if you haven't pondered God's existence, agnosticism makes perfect sense to me. If you have pondered it somewhat deeply, I find it hard to believe that the arguments for and against weighed each other out evenly.. though I suppose anything is possible.


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## Johnnyorganic (Mar 7, 2009)

crunked said:


> For the offensive posts comment, I was under the impression you thought this thread "unworthy" because it offended readers/was aimed at offending readers. But even if it is a circle jerk thread, let them jerk each other off!


All I said was 'Who cares!' Spirituality is a deeply personal choice. 

Many people smarter than me are believers. 

Frankly I could care less who is offended. I offend people regularly. And I do not wish to defend anyone who would be offended by mere words.

I suppose it is simply the elitist tenor of the entire thread that rankles my contrarian nature.


crunked said:


> As far as your agnostic stance I'm not sure if you were asking for my two cents? It sounds like were though..


I wasn't. I was simply using it for example, but I welcome your input.


crunked said:


> I think it makes sense to be agnostic if you haven't bothered debating the issue of God very much, but to have searched for God, searched for proof, read arguments for/against His existence, or anything along those lines and then still remain agnostic is kind of like saying "I don't know what I believe in regards to black matter" after taking courses on cosmology that cover black matter. You may not know much about the theories for and against black matter right now, and will undoubtedly never see black matter, but you can still make a decision after you've been informed of the arguments for and against it.


Dark matter is hypothetical matter. Astronomers who have studied it for decades have no idea what it actually is. 

For my purposes, it is a good example. I can call myself agnostic for the same reason cosmologists shrug when asked the composition of dark matter. They just don't know. Not enough data.

Frankly, I am very comfortable saying '*I don't know and I don't presume to know either way*.' As far as I know, I have never been dead. I have no concept of an afterlife. An afterlife is as plausible to me as the cold, dark, void once we shake off this mortal coil. 



crunked said:


> So if you haven't pondered God's existence, agnosticism makes perfect sense to me. If you have pondered it somewhat deeply, I find it hard to believe that the arguments for and against weighed each other out evenly.. though I suppose anything is possible.


For a long time I was certain there was a god: The surly god of Abraham who demanded my allegiance out of fear of damnation. 

Later I was just as sure there was no god. 

Eventually I simply came to the conclusion I was not sure of anything because both sides are based on the words and reasoning of man. 

In short: I simply don't know and that's fine with me. 

Nor do I feel compelled to enlist adherents or waste energy defending my position. Deeply personal choice, remember?

I figure I'll find out soon enough.


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## sittinherebored (Mar 8, 2009)

i havnt read any part of this thread exept the title but i do agree. someone with higher intelligence would believe what is logical and makes sense and would stick to science which is based on fact. some people just need religion to get them through though


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## Brazko (Mar 8, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Why would any SUPREME being design a world based on carnage...
> 
> out.


I can Answer that 4 You, but it will cost you your soul.......

but if you want to keep it fine, I'll let you work for it, and then you can OWN it, ponder on the Human Cell for a while 


(oops)DYK: That the Human Body completely replaces itself entirely about every 10yrs....In Meaning you are A completely New You every 8 to 10 - 12 yrs


----------



## misshestermoffitt (Mar 8, 2009)

Excellent question Jax, I would also like to know the answer to that  .....






CrackerJax said:


> Why would any SUPREME being design a world based on carnage...
> 
> out.


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## tinyTURTLE (Mar 8, 2009)

he didn't.
we did. and he gave us the power to do it.


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## mastakoosh (Mar 8, 2009)

free will.


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## Big P (Mar 8, 2009)

tinyTURTLE said:


> he didn't.
> we did. and he gave us the power to do it.





mastakoosh said:


> free will.


 

great he gave people free will to kill your daughters


great im glad he lets those fucks just do whatever even if u are being good. 


what a shitty "government" got runs


if complete free will was so great why do we have cops why is there a law agaisnr rape murder molestation of children,

lets just letem allhave free will if it truly its so wonderful


free will he gave us? all he gave us was anarchy


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## Brazko (Mar 8, 2009)

misshestermoffitt said:


> Excellent question Jax, I would also like to know the answer to that  .....


It was an Excellent question, 1 that can be answered........, but it's simplicity requires an intrinsic amount of spiritual maturity, or it goes completely mis understood and complicated furthermore........, thus actually hindering your maturation

but we all have the answers that are right, or if for better well said, on the correct path, (as indicated by TinyT, MastK, BigP, & hosts of others) it is the clutterness of irrelevant thoughts of present /past tho' that keeps the noise level turned up, so clarity is missed......

It is like a group of men trying to measure an elephant with a 12" ruler, or a child trying to take apart a small radio, in attempt to understand just how it works  .......quite nearly impossilbe, so you must acquire the corret tools ehh, 

What I have given is a resourceful starting point to guide one, the only other tool I would and adamantly suggest is Meditation ( the only way to turn down the noise)


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## Brazko (Mar 8, 2009)

When your lower mind is quiet, the higher mind will reign........, then the mysterious and unknown will not only become apparent but will, in fact, manifest itself everywhere you look. You will not be able to avoid seeing it


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## misshestermoffitt (Mar 8, 2009)

That was quite a tap dance, are you Gene Kelly? 





Brazko said:


> It was an Excellent question, 1 that can be answered........, but it's simplicity requires an intrinsic amount of spiritual maturity, or it goes completely mis understood and complicated furthermore........, thus actually hindering your maturation
> 
> but we all have the answers that are right, or if for better well said, on the correct path, (as indicated by TinyT, MastK, BigP, & hosts of others) it is the clutterness of irrelevant thoughts of present /past tho' that keeps the noise level turned up, so clarity is missed......
> 
> ...


----------



## Brazko (Mar 8, 2009)

misshestermoffitt said:


> That was quite a tap dance, are you Gene Kelly?


........whoever Gene Kelly is, name sound familar, the face a lil distorted (look him up later), I've always been a gifted Dancer tho, I was a B-Boy you know.....

Everybody wants the answer, but no one wants to study for the Test......., what's even more astounding........, It's an Open book Test


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## misshestermoffitt (Mar 8, 2009)

OK, then , that was the best example of verbal masterbation that I have ever seen. 

You didn't answer anything.


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## Brazko (Mar 8, 2009)

well miss, I Was compelled at first to answer it blatanly (lm), but like I said it would hinder you more in understanding, 

I gave a very tangible and excuse me, speaking on your behalf a very knowlegable background perhaps of the subject matter (cells), I asked you only to re-discover it once again.........


If my answer is not adequate for you, you'll ask another, which in turn will bring about another,......until everything possilbly exhausted is discussed and you'll still have questions......but if you want the answer, it's easier to gather up all the other questions on the way while trying to understand what is most important 2 you (hm).......how you like that one


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## misshestermoffitt (Mar 8, 2009)

This is not a detailed answer about cells. 

spiritual maturity? 

measuring an elephant with a ruler ? (even though we measure horses in hands) 

Taking apart a radio? 

Meditation? 

Verbal masterbation ! 







Brazko said:


> It was an Excellent question, 1 that can be answered........, but it's simplicity requires an intrinsic amount of spiritual maturity, or it goes completely mis understood and complicated furthermore........, thus actually hindering your maturation
> 
> but we all have the answers that are right, or if for better well said, on the correct path, (as indicated by TinyT, MastK, BigP, & hosts of others) it is the clutterness of irrelevant thoughts of present /past tho' that keeps the noise level turned up, so clarity is missed......
> 
> ...


----------



## Brazko (Mar 8, 2009)

misshestermoffitt said:


> This is not a detailed answer about cells.
> 
> spiritual maturity?
> 
> ...


It was never a detail answer about cells......it was a reply to a question about carnage, I think , I said learn the details if anything, about cells basically and there is plenty of information and details already documented about cell biology...... 

In time with Spiritual maturity (which can be achieved w/ meditation), the answer to the question will be quiet clear, almost redundant..... 

*measuring an elephant with a ruler ? *(even though we measure horses in hands) 

*Taking apart a radio



* They kinda represent a Koan of sort (look it up )
* a hand isn't a ruler, nor an elephant a horse

HOlla,atcha later.....gotta share PC


oh and that verbal masterbater  thing, hurt my feelings , I'm going to need time to recover ,


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## CrackerJax (Mar 8, 2009)

tinyTURTLE said:


> he didn't.
> we did. and he gave us the power to do it.



Well considering that religion is an extension of mans narcissism, I am not surprised by the faulty logic responses.

Let me rephrase.

Why would a supreme being design a WORLD (not JUST man) which is based upon carnage? 


out.


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## Mr.EyezLayLow (Mar 9, 2009)

Johnnyorganic said:


> *Who cares?* I don't know anything about god. Never met one personally, but I would *never* label another person *stupid* for being a *believer*.
> 
> Religion is a deeply *personal* choice. As a *free* man, what I *believe* has *no* bearing on *anyone* else. And what others believe is *none of my business*.



Exactly!!!!Well Said


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## CrackerJax (Mar 9, 2009)

I also agree EXCEPT, Christianity is anything but personal. It's a cult which demands to be fed new believers by any means of coercion available. Luckily people are no longer burned at the stake to bring people into line, but even though the methods have changed, the inane objective remains.

out.


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## misshestermoffitt (Mar 9, 2009)

Here is where you claim the verbal masterbation to be an answer. Yet in that verbal stroke off the word cells wasn't even mentioned. 

I'm trying to figure out WTF you're even talking about, but your verbal ejaculate is spraying all over the place not even making sense. 

Where is this knowlegable background on cells?

I still agree with Jax, why would a supreme being create a world based on carnage? You can't tell me the antelope commits suicide so the lion can eat it. The crocodile doesn't say, "hey cow, can you drown yourself so I can eat?". 








Brazko said:


> well miss, I Was compelled at first to answer it blatanly (lm), but like I said it would hinder you more in understanding,
> 
> I gave a very tangible and excuse me, speaking on your behalf a very knowlegable background perhaps of the subject matter (cells), I asked you only to re-discover it once again.........
> 
> ...


----------



## Brazko (Mar 9, 2009)

misshestermoffitt said:


> Here is where you claim the verbal masterbation to be an answer. Yet in that verbal stroke off the word cells wasn't even mentioned.
> 
> I'm trying to figure out WTF you're even talking about, but your verbal ejaculate is spraying all over the place not even making sense.
> 
> ...





Brazko said:


> I can Answer that 4 You, but it will cost you your soul.......
> 
> but if you want to keep it fine, I'll let you work for it, and then you can OWN it, ponder on the Human Cell for a while
> 
> ...


 
Originally Posted by *Brazko*  
_well miss, I Was compelled at first to answer it blatanly (lm), but like I said it would hinder you more in understanding, _

_I gave a very tangible and excuse me, speaking on your behalf a very knowlegable background perhaps of the subject matter (cells), I asked you only to re-discover it once again........._


_If my answer is not adequate for you, you'll ask another, which in turn will bring about another,......until everything possilbly exhausted is discussed and you'll still have questions......but if you want the answer, it's easier to gather up all the other questions on the way while trying to understand what is most important 2 you (hm).......how you like that one _



You should've started learning about cells in about the 5th grade, also they begin teaching you how to read in kindergarten, ABC's, Spell your name, etc....... as well.........


WTF i'm talking about, well obviously you have no clue, b/c it doesn't exist in your scope of thinking, here let me help make your arguement logical....Brazko: Hi, I'm from the Greater First Baptist Petecostal Non Denomination Living Waters HOly Alliance for Jesus, would you come to him, HesterMoffit: Get the Fuck off my lawn (now you and I both make sense)....you follow that, all better for you now..........


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## Jointsmith (Mar 9, 2009)

IQ is a crock.

It really tests your ability to take IQ tests.

There are far to many types of intellegence to be defined by a test then a number.


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## Brazko (Mar 9, 2009)

Jointsmith said:


> IQ is a crock.
> 
> It really tests your ability to take IQ tests.
> 
> There are far to many types of intellegence to be defined by a test then a number.


 
Mr Jointsmith, you don't say......MESSAGE Everybody,


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## Jointsmith (Mar 9, 2009)

yeah sorry I didn't read past the first page.....

Maybe the people likely to be Narrow minded enough to let them selves be defined by a 'high IQ' are the same people too Narrow minded to consider an intellegence different than the type they experiance themselves (Everyone has their own idea of 'GOD').

A more true statement (IMO) would be 'People with lower IQ's are more likely to have childish (fantasized) beliefs about WHAT 'God' is.

(personally I believe in 'God' but I call it 'Nature' or 'The Universe' or 'Existance'....but the IQ test have given me an 'IQ' between 128 and 144(I have taken two in my life))


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## Brazko (Mar 9, 2009)

Jointsmith said:


> yeah sorry I didn't read past the first page.....
> 
> Maybe the people likely to be Narrow minded enough to let them selves be defined by a 'high IQ' are the same people too Narrow minded to consider an intellegence different than the type they experiance themselves (Everyone has their own idea of 'GOD').
> 
> ...


yeah, I was only agreeing with you  .......My IQ is 45 and I didn't even have to take the teST 


Dito for the aforemention statement you've made as well.........


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## misshestermoffitt (Mar 9, 2009)

Saying the word CELL isn't an explaination of anything. So humans have cells, big deal, animals have cells, plants have cells, bacteria are cells. 


How is this an explaination? Do you even know what an explaination is? I can see how you only have an IQ of 45, It's a wonder you haven't died blowdrying your hair in the shower. Hair has cells, let's call that an explanation on why a supreme being would make a world built on carnage, because hair has cells. 



Once again 

Why would a supreme being create a world based on carnage? 






Brazko said:


> Originally Posted by *Brazko*
> _well miss, I Was compelled at first to answer it blatanly (lm), but like I said it would hinder you more in understanding, _
> 
> _I gave a very tangible and excuse me, speaking on your behalf a very knowlegable background perhaps of the subject matter (cells), I asked you only to re-discover it once again........._
> ...


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## Jointsmith (Mar 9, 2009)

misshestermoffitt said:


> Saying the word CELL isn't an explaination of anything. So humans have cells, big deal, animals have cells, plants have cells, bacteria are cells.
> 
> 
> How is this an explaination? Do you even know what an explaination is? I can see how you only have an IQ of 45, It's a wonder you haven't died blowdrying your hair in the shower. Hair has cells, let's call that an explanation on why a supreme being would make a world built on carnage, because hair has cells.
> ...


Ah the old Carnage Argument, spanner in the works.

ok try this one out for size..... People with Higher IQ's are less likely to believe in a *Benevolent* AND *Omnipotent* God......

...That works I guess.


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## misshestermoffitt (Mar 9, 2009)

It's more like people with a rational thought process are less likely to believe in fairy tales.


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## Brazko (Mar 9, 2009)

misshestermoffitt said:


> Saying the word CELL isn't an explaination of anything. So humans have cells, big deal, animals have cells, plants have cells, bacteria are cells.
> 
> 
> How is this an explaination? Do you even know what an explaination is? I can see how you only have an IQ of 45, It's a wonder you haven't died blowdrying your hair in the shower. Hair has cells, let's call that an explanation on why a supreme being would make a world built on carnage, because hair has cells.
> ...


 
..............................,

Ok, this is a remedial course, Re educate yourelf on Cells, like you said, they are everywhere, including the first organism being unicellular(1), 

And cells can but may not independently explain carnage, it was a starting point I presented, not just for Your Sake, but for everyone that read it, believe me some people get it, some don't, some will do the research, while others just continue the same blab, b/c that's all they know......


Sorry, I won't explain it to you, I'm dumb remember.......... IQ= (45) 

i jus mite make you stoopid or sumting


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## Drgreenz (Mar 9, 2009)

I have had numerous IQ test done proffesionally from the time I was 17 when i scored the highest MSAT(Minnesota Standard Assessment Test) score ever recorded, through now(24) each time it was from 149-151. I have served in the US Army infantry(from which I was medically retired at age 22 due to injuries while in Iraq) and earned a dual bachelors in political science and constitutional law and am currently working towards a masters. I DO believe in god, maybe not every detail of the christian bible but in god definately, also, if you look at the complete charts and studies done on IQ vs. religious belief, they almost allways indicate that yes people with IQ's ranging from 100-120(average in america is 110) have a decreased faith however those with an IQ above 120 tend to again have a much higher standard of belief. Iam not saying that the average person is ignorant, maybe just ill informed also, if you quote a study research the entire findings and who has conducted it and you will almost always get an idea of why they are reporting the findings they are.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 9, 2009)

MHM just doesn't get that you can believe in 'God' without believing in some religous dogma...


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## Drgreenz (Mar 9, 2009)

Jointsmith said:


> MHM just doesn't get that you can believe in 'God' without believing in some religous dogma...


It's easy, you stop going to church, stop listening to how you "should" believe and look for yourself. What gives a preacher the right to tell you how to believe and when to believe it? Because they have an understanding of the bible/torah? Because they have studied it? Well I say study it for yourself, idk how many times i have heard people quote a line from the bible and have turned it around on them by simply quoting that entire paragraph they are reffering to. You see, everyone, no matter who they are or how good they want to be, has an agenda and will both conciously and sub-conciously argue and scue facts to promote that agenda. I am saying go research for yourself.....

Did you know cannabis was used in almost all early christian jewish and muslim ceramonies?
Bet your preacher/rabi wont tell you that?


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## Drgreenz (Mar 9, 2009)

ps. god doesn't build anything on carnage.... that ended when he gave us a little thing called free will and thus stopped being in control of what we do.


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## FLoJo (Mar 9, 2009)

this has turned into a redundant dick.. i mean iq measuring competition..

yes space and man down to the cell is infinitely complex, and breaks down much further than our understanding (mandelbrot fractals) and that goes for the same when expanding into the vacuum of space

and yes it is a tough question to answer when speaking about the way humans are carnal.. but that is not just humans, that is every life form, and that is not just life forms either, it happens in non life forms as well..

just as the croc swallows the water buffalo and extracts the energy to keep itself going, as does our earths crust swallow land at the tectonic plates and turns it back to liquid magma, that is then recycled through volcanic eruptions from the depths of the ocean to the tops of mountains.. 

just as man conquers and expands the life and land around him, so do the galaxies that are constantly expanding and absorbing matter, planets colliding, and black holes swallowing the space around them...

the point is that this argument should not be an argument, simply because it is a matter of opinion, and since we are all future mensa members, we obviously know the fallacy of any philisophical argument.. well any argument for that matter.. and that is that if you know how to shift the debate from one point to another, each point can be indefinitely argued from every different angle, thus never reaching a logical conclusion

some will look at the cyclical nature of the universe and will see a magnificient creation that was birthed from divine intervention, others will look at the destructive nature of the universe and see a cynical redundancy deprived of a fair balance, while others still will look at the universe and see a constantly growing evolving collection of atoms that occured from nothingness and be happy with that. 

nobody can prove the theory of god, nobody can prove the theory wrong.. nobody can prove the theory of evolution, nobody can prove it wrong, nobody can prove the theory of intelligent extra terrestreal life, and nobody can prove it wrong..hell nobody can prove any theory right or wrong because they are only theorys until something better comes along..

so what im trying to say is fuck all of your IQs, prove me wrong LOL

FLo


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## Brazko (Mar 9, 2009)

Drgreenz said:


> ps. god doesn't build anything on carnage.... that ended when he gave us a little thing called free will and thus stopped being in control of what we do.


there we go, we started unicellular and now we have multi cellular......... that is not carnage (death), that's life.......

although free will isn't something I believe that was giving, we already had it, It was only made aware to us ............no one can take your life, remember the fictious story of the man who laid his life down...........Shit, guess I shouldn't have said that, I'm going to have'em all screwed up NOW


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## Drgreenz (Mar 9, 2009)

exactly.... lol


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## Brazko (Mar 9, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> this has turned into a redundant dick.. i mean iq measuring competition..
> 
> yes space and man down to the cell is infinitely complex, and breaks down much further than our understanding (mandelbrot fractals) and that goes for the same when expanding into the vacuum of space
> 
> ...


damn, FloJo..... IQ .............


*( I wouldn't wasted my 
finger strokes in explaining that tho' let'em figure it out)


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## CrackerJax (Mar 9, 2009)

Theories need evidence..... doh. Religion doesn't have any.. hence....


out.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 10, 2009)

God and Religion, are they one and the same?

I don't think so.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 10, 2009)

On earth, they are the same statistically speaking.

out.


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## Brazko (Mar 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> On earth, they are the same statistically speaking.
> 
> out.


Very true indeed, b\c it doesn't matter if you are a religious freak or a stubborn atheist, neither will open themselves to reason, so in all honesty I view both groups identical, different talk but doing the same walk, stuck on stupid..........it doesn't matter either, those statistics will and have already began to fall........it's not like there is a choice in the matter if you will understand or not, just a matter of time........


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## CrackerJax (Mar 10, 2009)

I am an atheist BECAUSE of my reasoning power. I cannot believe in things not in evidence. I certainly cannot adopt a view which is derived form a pre-scientific age. 

I lean towards events that have a certitude.

If some supreme being showed up tomorrow, I would not go into denial about it. 

out.


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## chadbomb (Mar 10, 2009)

ya ...i agree..



but then again the truily smart just 
dont care...


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## Brazko (Mar 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> I am an atheist BECAUSE of my reasoning power. I cannot believe in things not in evidence. I certainly cannot adopt a view which is derived form a pre-scientific age.
> 
> I lean towards events that have a certitude.
> 
> ...


so when we say observe the things around you, not just the sun and earth, but the universe.....why refusal, when a person says God, in your words is not a seperate supreme being, that is going to whisk down and save you, why tell them no he is, so that is why I dont believe it,.......you are being stubborn.........doesn't matter what you call yourself,.............christian, atheist, etc........ 

what is different isn't always wrong or right, but being open will allow true reasoning to be found.............

to understand quickly, Atheist meant devil worshipper, I never looked it up, that was just a general term for those who may not have been educated to it's true meaning, just as the term God.....

after being on this site, I was like shit, I'm a devil worshipper, not really, but I could identify myself as an Atheist, by its true reasoned definition....the only thing is, I found it to be no different than its so described counterpart............religion, 

peace cj......i'll holla 

p.s. I keep hearing all this weak minded shit talk, but understand only a weak minded person will address another weak minded person.......So stay your place be-otch


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## CrackerJax (Mar 10, 2009)

One is based on reason, one is not. Can't tell the difference??? 

out.


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## Brazko (Mar 10, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> One is based on reason, one is not. Can't tell the difference???
> 
> out.


No, I can't.......but it seems as if you are right on this one.....without sensible reasoning were would we be today, I still think that was a brave mutha who set out to prove the planet round on popular unsound reasoning (that was stupid), or a couple of brothers trying to fly like birds ( 2 dummies IMO), or...........(ding) sorry gotta split, that was my pizza


----------



## CrackerJax (Mar 10, 2009)

Brazko said:


> No, I can't.......but it seems as if you are right on this one.....without sensible reasoning were would we be today, I still think that was a brave mutha who set out to prove the planet round on popular unsound reasoning (that was stupid), or a couple of brothers trying to fly like birds ( 2 dummies IMO), or...........(ding) sorry gotta split, that was my pizza


Not to mention that when the CHURCH was fully in control of people's lives in the past, anyone coming up with a VALID scientific discovery which flew in the face of the church fathers faced death or internment. 

Islam is still in that stage....

out.


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## pamaris (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't understand why non-believers point to the ever changing cultural and historical institution of the church to prove that Jesus is a fraud. When people bring that up, all they are really saying is that the church does not and never has emulated Jesus- which is what just about all (awakened) Christians are saying anyway. People have always and will always come in the name of God and/ or Jesus, and use that as a tool to oppress the uneducated masses. THAT is why we need God; it is because the human race is utterly hopeless... hopeless in the sense that we will never eradicate the greedy, self-serving nature of man (does anyone dispute that this is the nature of man?)

I think that the believers who post on this board do so because of the following:

We expect the entire system of slavery and unfettered capitalism to change during our lifetime. I think even non-believers agree this is a necessary change that is just plain going to happen because of diminishing resources. However, believers know that changing the system WON'T WORK without Jesus coming back and eliminating sin from our midst. Sin is not a list of DO's and DON'Ts- sin is death... sin is simply failing to do the following: A) Love God B) Love your neighbour.

We're just stating our beliefs and informing people what we truly believe will happen. If that makes us dumb, ignorant, sheeple, etc that is OK. We just hope that someone will read our words and decide to love God and love their neighbour. That is what will make a tangible difference in the world- if people walked the walk that Jesus did. Sadly, just as the Bible predicted (yah you guys love when we do this don't ya), so many people are hard hearted and do not believe in love (Mt 24:12 Because lawlessness is increased, most people's love will grow cold). This is why movements such as Zeitgeist ain't gonna work... so many people have no love whatsoever... for example when courageous journalists inform us about the world situation, so many people immediately switch off the TV. When I see starving orphans on TV I break down in a heap of tears and pray for them (this doesn't make me better than anyone; I just feel extreme emotions, good and bad while most people appear not to feel much at all). It's sick-- all people really want is to eat their Krispy Kremes, Starbux & McDs while watching porn on their plasma screens... self self self... it really annoys them when they have to think of poverty. The whole starving kids in Africa thing is just old.

I'm losing the plot now... I hope I've made some sort of point.

(footnote: For clarification, the love of both believers and non-believers has gone cold... not throwing stones... it is time for us all to wake up and give a crap about what is going on).

(ps. as if it matters, I have a "high IQ" and am a believer.)


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

The reason why people doubt Jesus is because they have CAREFULLY read the BIBLE. Try it some time. 

It is quite evident that the Bible was written in hindsight. Imagine if Lincoln was the president in 1861 (he was ), he ends slavery in the US....but nothing was written about him while he did it. Nothing is written about him for 70+ years. So 70+ years pass and then ONE guy writes about the end of slavery, but knows NOTHING of Lincoln...never heard of him. Then later anonymous authors plagerize heavily from the first text and start to inject a person named Lincoln into the story of slavery ending. Sounds a little nutty doesn't it...it sure does to me. That is the history of Jesus (myth) in a NUTshell. Don't take my word on it...do some research and it will become clear. 

Words are fine, but it is action which truly counts. When you look at what man has done with the words, it is a horrific way to live.

I won't even go into the testaments which are such easy targets.


out.


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## pamaris (Mar 11, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The reason why people doubt Jesus is because they have CAREFULLY read the BIBLE. Try it some time.


Oh I have carefully read the Bible upside down and sideways, and I am familiar with the contents (though some parts are infinitely more interesting than others, and some parts don't make a ton of sense). I hope that non-believers will at least read both sides of the argument when it comes to the allegation that the story of Jesus is an amalgamation of various saviour myths: http://www.christian-thinktank.com/copycat.html... also http://www.tektonics.org/copycat/mithra.html. It would seem that one would have to carefully consider the points and counterpoints when it comes to this matter. It is intellectually dishonest not to. I think that people who have not read both sides cannot state anything categorically, while people who have read both sides also cannot state anything categorically... because we were not there... it is the chicken & egg thing.



CrackerJax said:


> Words are fine, but it is action which truly counts. When you look at what man has done with the words, it is a horrific way to live.


 Agreed 100%! I have a strong desire to DO something somewhere that will make a difference in the world. I'm talking about working at something like an African fistula clinic or fighting some Cambodian child pornography ring. There are lots of howevers in the mix that make me sad though.... I have 2 kids to think of- age 4 & 7... do I drag them to Africa to save the world?? (maybe, I don't know; other people do it... but I am not sure) Also we have just enough money to get by on (btw we live on 20-50% less than what everyone else around us thinks they need)... we all know the way the world works-- the people at the top have all the real money (power) and they give us each just enough to stay stuck in the system, but not enough to help the people who need the most help. Anyway, I have lots of great ideas but no money. Also, these days aid organizations practically want you to have a PhD in the subject... I don't think it's like it used to be, where you could just show up and say I'm ready to work. Add to this the fact I have a debilitating chronic pain condition; I am not so sure I will be able to personally save the world at this time.

So... maybe someone (believer or non-believer) will read my words and think, YES the world does need LOVE. Maybe that person will put love into action in ways I just can't, for the reasons listed above. Love is just helping people who are not in a position to help themselves.

Until the world's problems are sorted, my IRL mission is not to ram religion down people's throats... it is to help people that I come into contact with relax and not to get so worked up with anxiety and frustration while running on this hamster wheel. I like to point out beauty to people.

I have had profound spiritual experiences that can't really be explained away as coincidence. These experiences (dreams/ visions) are very real to me. Unfortunately, no matter how many times I say "it's true!" people will choose not to believe me, or they will assume I am embellishing, and I will be seen as just another nutter (crazy person). Oh well I think "crazy" people have more fun & they have great sex too.

I would love to find a few hippie stoner Christians to explore ideas with in my area... even to the haters they are preferable to conventional Jesus freaks, no? It actually takes a lot of spiritual sacrifice to show love to conventional hypocritical Jesus freaks (my mom is one)... many of us understand why people hate Christians.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

I don't think most people would disavow the notion of Love, just perhaps the best method of achieving it. I for one don't see religion as the answer for achieving that goal. Love begins in the home and spreads outward. While I received a catholic upbringing, my parents in their wisdom informed me early on that they were just stories, much like Dr. Suess and not to be taken literally. This allowed us to focus on the positive stories of the Bible. We also concentrated on the Greek classics which offer the same type of parables, which is not surprising since the Bible is an almalgamation of other previous myths.

I have sympathy for those who have fallen down the rabbit hole of religion. But once in it is difficult to pull them out. In many ways they are lost. 


out.


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

Well. One would assume any given atheist is quite secular. So having the benefit of not living in a fairy tale reality.... Duh?

One era's religions are the next era's myths & legends.

I don't expect religion to be gone any time soon. It's the easiest thing in the world. It requires _no_ rational, logical, or intelligent thought(IQ).

Weed don't got shit on religion, as far as harmful effects.

You may think I am being offensive. And mocking your god and you along with him/her/it/pasta. But when you understand why you dismiss Zeus, Allah, Yehwah, Vulcan, Mars, Ops, Pluto, Bacchus, Bellona, Flora, Jupiter, Dagur, Gerd, Fenrir, Aesir, Freyr, Odin, Loki, Valkyries, Vidar, Nott, Anat, Baalat, Dagon, Mot, Zedek, Shemesh, Aizen-Myoo, Baku, Butsu, Buddha, Fudo, Gekka-o, Inari, Isora, Horus, Ma Zhu, Tu-Ti, Esus, Borvo, Ambisagrus, Icaunus, Zacharus, Clota, Coventina, Verbeia, Sabrina.... Yes. Even Sabrina! You will then understand why I dismiss your god and all gods.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 11, 2009)

TeaTreeOil said:


> Well. One would assume any given atheist is quite secular. So having the benefit of not living in a fairy tale reality.... Duh?
> 
> One era's religions are the next era's myths & legends.
> 
> I don't expect religion to be gone any time soon. It's the easiest thing in the world. It requires _no_ rational, logical, or intelligent thought(IQ).


Aetheism can be acheived just as easily.

Just depends who it is indoctrinating you.


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

Indeed, atheism is just as easy. We're all born that way.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 11, 2009)

TeaTreeOil said:


> Indeed, atheism is just as easy. We're all born that way.


Actually I was born to Wonder and Question....

I call that Agnosticism


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

I thought agnosticism was based on ignorance, no offense.

Isn't it basically saying, "I do not have enough information to make a valid decision."? Or, "I don't know."? Or, "I'm ignorant of the truth."?


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## Jointsmith (Mar 11, 2009)

TeaTreeOil said:


> I thought agnosticism was based on ignorance, no offense.
> 
> Isn't it basically saying, "I do not have enough information to make a valid decision."? Or, "I don't know."? Or, "I'm ignorant of the truth."?


Thats one way to put it.

But then we're all ignorant.

And anyone who pretends to KNOW is even more ignorant...

What is the TRUTH?


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

There's his famous circular logic on display again  

out.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 11, 2009)

Circular Logic.... mind if I steal that one.

It amazing how many things at first appear linear or flat but later turn out to be circular.

Thanks for the compliment


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

All gods we know of were created by men. I consider that to be a truth. I was born into an LDS family. I realized I wasn't a theist at the age of 5. I realized I was an atheist, and what atheism was, much later. I currently consider myself a secular humanist. I really don't like the two-faced people religion creates. Part of me believes religions promote evil. All of the most 'evil' events in history are tied deeply to religions. Most prisoners are believers, disproportionately so. 

It's kind of like the chicken and the egg and which one came first. Intelligent design _could_ support the notion the chicken came first. Reality, and scientific research shows the egg came first. That another animal's offspring(egg) mutated(evolved) into a chicken.

Which do you think came first? Man or Man's gods? They're not the gods of monkies, chimpanzees, dogs, cats, or any other animals. I don't see them reading the bible, being baptized, worshipping idols(well I think my dogs worship me... but I am their leader and feed them and take care of them), etc.

And if I have a soul, and I'm not saying I do, then I would say my dog does, every animal, and all lifeforms(plants, bacteria, viruses, etc).

I can come to terms with some new agers, actually. That the soul is the measurable electrochemical energy.

Perhaps if people focused more on physical reality instead of spirituality... our planet wouldn't be so fucked up.

But the guy in the sky? Heaven/hell? Eternal something for finite something. That's an uneven deal no matter how you slice it. I figured that out when I was 5. Why? I could never get satisfying answers to most of my questions.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

If you understood its meaning, you would not take it as a compliment. Crack a book sometime and be amazed.

out.


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

TeaTreeOil said:


> All gods we know of were created by men. I consider that to be a truth. I was born into an LDS family. I realized I wasn't a theist at the age of 5. I realized I was an atheist, and what atheism was, much later. I currently consider myself a secular humanist. I really don't like the two-faced people religion creates. Part of me believes religions promote evil. All of the most 'evil' events in history are tied deeply to religions. Most prisoners are believers, disproportionately so.
> 
> It's kind of like the chicken and the egg and which one came first. Intelligent design _could_ support the notion the chicken came first. *Reality, and scientific research shows the egg came first. That another animal's offspring(egg) mutated(evolved) into a chicken.*
> 
> ...


can you please support that comment with evidence? the problem with the theory of evolution is that it looks good on paper but when it comes down to it they cannot find a single missing link between ANY species to support it..


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

What missing link? If it's missing it must have went extinct? The links are found between living animals, and fossils. A missing link... what would that be, exactly, to you?

Have you not realized that isolated locations produce animals exclusive to them that are often genetically similar?

Say you have two continents that were once joined but are now not. If you compare animals from the era when they were still joined, you'll see common ancestry to present day animals and fossils between that era and present. Though the isolated regions now have completely unique animals to them.

This is most evident with all of the continents and most remote islands. Haven't you ever seen Animal Planet?


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

Like, for instance, Dinosaurs. 65 million years ago, right? We have around 7000 years of recorded history. That's about .01%. We've been studying this stuff with vigor for how long as a species? We have much to learn.

Fossils are rare, it takes very precise conditions for preservation. Life feeds on life, and bacteria, fungi, etc. will rot any organic matter given most conditions.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

All true tea... It's like looking for a needle in a pile of haystacks. 
the fossil records are vastly underwhelming in number compared to the amount created.
out.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 11, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> If you understood its meaning, you would not take it as a compliment. Crack a book sometime and be amazed.
> 
> out.


Ha ha, been reading Wikipedia have we?

I looked it up, I don't really see how what I'm saying is Circular logic (Especially considering I haven't put forward a proposition to support a proposition)..... I can't help noticing wikipedia uses an Argument concerning God's Existance to demonstate what Circular Logic is...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circular_logic

BWAHAHAHAHA you looser!!! 

Don't just steal arugments off wikipedia that don't even make sense.

You Dolt, thats fucking funny.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

I used to think your ill thought out diatribes were humorous but no longer. You set up your own posits and then answer them. You sir are a tool of the lowest order. Good day to you. Go join the Med Man club. You deserve each other. I certainly don't need wiki which is flawed at best.


out.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 11, 2009)

OK Dipshit, explain exactly how I have presented Circular Logic?

You bought it up.

(this is your chance to make me look like an idiot...)


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## swishersweetrolla (Mar 11, 2009)

..yea....right we came from rocks colliding and exploding so were filled with bones bloods and organs that function with eachother and happened to be thrown on the only planet according to scientist that can hold life.........but whateeever were all different if we werent that shit would be weird


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## Jointsmith (Mar 11, 2009)

Jointsmith said:


> OK Dipshit, explain exactly how I have presented Circular Logic?
> 
> You bought it up.
> 
> (this is your chance to make me look like an idiot...)


No reply.....what a suprise.


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

I think he was referring to what basically boils down to "[everyone is ignorant] ignorant people [that pretend to know, _apparently everyone minus agnostics_] are [even more] ignorant".

But, IMO, your message is also ignorant in itself. Which adds hypocrisy to circular reasoning.

Cheers.


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## Roseman (Mar 11, 2009)

I have two cents to add. 

I accept and profess that the Universe and all of creation that we know of, operates on tens of thousands of PRINCIPLES and LAWS that most of the educated are aware of and we easily accept as facts. 

Some examples of these Laws and Principles are the Law of Gravity, for instance. Our planets revolve around the sun, and are held in absolute perfect positions, or they would just fly off into outer space or collide into each other. If we throw a baseball upward into the air, it will return on a downward path that is perfect in relationship to the path it traveled upward. That ball will obey that law.

There is the Law of Procreation. A sperm has to be delivered to and enter the egg at a perfect precise time, to make a new born. Us pot growers know Male Pollen has to enter the female flower at a perfect time to make a new flower.

The Law of CAUSE AND AFFECT, or the Law of CAUSE and EFFECT. We all accept that when we throw a rubber ball on the concrete walkway, that it will bounce back up in a pre-determined direction.. We know the law of Physics if we shoot pool. AND If we line up a standing stack of Dominoes, and push the first one over, the remaining Dominoes will also tumble over. Most of us accept as fact, what goes around, comes around, OR What comes around, goes around, be it a bad cold, or gossip or whatever. IF we strike a person with a harmful blow, the most normal and natural reaction is for that person to strike us back. It's a natural Law. Many of us that are older and wiser also have learned that if we throw a piece of chewing gum on the concrete walkway, we will eventually live to step on a piece of chewing gum thrown on the sidewalk. If we cheat on our spouse, well, we all know what happens. We call it KARMA, or REAP WHAT WE SEW, or the Law of Cause and Effect, or WHAT GOES AROUND, COMES AROUND. We have all experienced that law or principle in action.

There is the Law or Principle of Duality. There is LIGHT and Darkness, Male and Female, Good and Bad, UP and Down, Left and Right, Two eyes, two ears, two lungs, two nostrils, two arms, two hands, two genders, two equal and opposite parts, two equal and exactly the same parts, etc. It is still Duality. Who could argue with this?

 The Law of Rythm. The "pendulum swings" manifests in everything. The measure of the swing to the left is the same perfect measure of the swing to the right. This law operates in life quite visibly with people who are bipolar. One day they're up, the next they're down. For most people, the law is realized when they become very, very happy. The law dictates that someday they will be very, very sad. When pain stops, it feel good.

The Law of Cycles. We obseve the perfect cycles of the seasons, the tides and ocean waves, the menstrul cycles of women, the revolving of the plants, Good Times, Bad Times, Good Luck, Bad Luck, The fish are biting, the fish are not biting, Floods and Droughts, the cycle of the Oak tree with it's leaves dying and being born again, the sap rising and lowering in the trees, etc We all accept that life occurs in cycles.

The Laws of Polarity. Everything has its opposite. Again, DARK-LIGHT, MALE-FEMALE. This law helps us to understand the perfect principles of the flow of Electricity, the principles of yin and yang. Some energy attracts and some energy repels. One is not better than the other but both exist equally. I like to think of the astronomical world where one body can capture another by pulling it into its sphere of influence. This principle can be understood in life when we recognize the truth in this saying: If you want him to be more of a man, be more of a woman. If you want to get more, give more.

The Laws of Love. The love you take, is equal to the love you make, or give. (Paul McCartney said it) 

 The Laws of Vibrations. Atoms, Neutrons, etc Everything vibrates. we ARE ALL connected. Nothing is still. Nothing is NEW. This Law helps us to understand the essence of things. It is this fine network of vibrations that connects us with every other living thing. You might picture it as an invisible world wide web. It is in tune with the vibrations of the universe that we attract and are attracted to every experience in our life. To use a metaphor, suppose you like country and western music. If you set your radio dial to country and western you will not hear classical or jazz music. If you vibrate at a peaceful level, you will not meet people who are violent. Sleep with dogs, get fleas. Hang with gentle people, avoid violence.


The Laws of Mentalism. What we see in this physical world, EVERYTHING THAT EXISTS IN THIS PHYSICAL WORLD, that man made, first existed as a thought. (GETTING DEEP) 

The Laws of Attraction, and Repelling. 

AND I COULD GO ON AND ON. Like I said there are thousands and thousands of these Laws and Principles that we all accept and beleive. 

IF no one ever read a book, and was of average intelligence, he would observe these Laws and Principles in life, in the world that surrounds us and accept them. 

These LAWS create, they nurture, they protect, they "cause" , and these LAWS for the most part, operate for the betterment of us all. They seem to operate on LOVE and GIVING, instead of HATE and TAKING. They encourage, and do not discourage. Yea, if we stick our hand in the fire, it burns our hand and hurts, that's a LAW, but it is to protect us from jumping our entire bodies into the fire. These LAWS are operated and caused by FORCES that I think none of us understand. I don't understand my microwave or TV remote, but I still use it.

Regardless of our understanding, these FORCES and LAWS do exist, and people, seekers and philosophers and prophets like Abraham, Moses, Socretes, Pythagoras, Jesus, Mohammed, Budha, Ghandi, etc, studied these LAWS, and gave them a personality, or Idenity, and they shared their meditations and conclusions with us all. A majority of people accept these conclusions, although we do not all accept the same conclusions. These seekers and philosophers and prophets called it THE FORCE, ALMIGHTY POWER, A CREATOR, that they called *GOD *. They also gave this GOD a personality, a gender, like an enity, called him KING, and other high titles, and they gave it a name; Jehovah, Allah, Zeus, Apollo, etc.

I have come to believe in and accept this Power and Force, and these LAWS and Principles, what I call and we call GOD. They work for me, they serve me well, they give me peace and underestanding. HE works for me, HE serves me well, HE gives me peace and underestanding. I don't have or use any of the suggested names, and I certainly do not accept any particular or specific denomination or religion given by man. But this GOD and the Laws and Principles are worthy of my time and research, my respect and study and meditations. Because of these LAWS and Principles I know what to expect more times than I do not, I have a Power or FORCE to beleive in and LAWS and Principles  to count on and rely on and trust in. Just like I know if I throw a ball up into the air, it will return down, I know IF I do good deeds, my life will be better and IF I do mean things, my life will not be better and will be not as good. (CAUSE AND AFFECT) I have learned to chose good over evil, good over bad, light over darkness.

I have sought and searched and researched this subject to the point it almost over took me, more so back in the 70s and 80s. I still do today. I am a very avid reader of Non-fiction, about "where did I come from, why am I here, who made me, created or started me, who is GOD, what is God, and I read at least one to two books a week now about this. 
My favorites are THE HISTORY OF GOD, and THE HISTORY OF RELIGION. 

I have to ask myself are one half billion Jews wrong, one billion Muslims wrong and one billion Christians wrong, and nearly one quarter billion Hindu and Budhist wrong, for accepting the existance of GOD? 
*JESUS ?*
I easily understand the difficulty with JESUS. we are told in "the Bible" that he was born of a virgin, walked on water, died and came back to life, and was the only man in History to do that. That is hard to beleive. (Yes I know of MIRTHA and pagan's Mithraism and the others who claimed ressurection in mythology) 

So was Jesus' life a myth? When I read Josephus, the Roman Historian, all educated people accept and believe his account of Roman History. Historians accept and believe every word he wrote about Roman History, EXCEPT his account of Jesus, his teachings and his death. Josephus wrote that Jesus was a well known, well traveled preacher and teacher that was crucifed by Rome, at eh demand of the Jewish Priests, and that many, "hundreds of his followers" claimed to have seen Jesus after his death. 

I have to ask myself how did Jesus and a dozen followers, along with a book composed of many shorter books and stories, convince over a billion people to follow his teachings and beliefs today? 

I am amazed to read and study the cause of death of the twelve apostles. Peter AND his wife were brought to Rome, and told "Deny HIM and live, Claim HIM, and be crucified AND WATCH YOUR WIFE BE CRUCIFIED FIRST RIGHT IN FRONT OF YOU!" Peter responded, according to Josephus, tht he did not deserve to die like Jesus died, so they crucified him UPSIDE DOWN. PETER DIED ON THE CROSS, AND HIS WIFE TOO, as Peter watched.. WHY didn't Peter and the other apostles just take the easy way out? 
(google death of the apostles) 

And of the other eleven apostles, ten were given the opportunity to live, or be tortured, burnt at the stake, drawn and quartered, cut in half, stabbed, and they chose DEATH and TORTURE over living. WHY? 

FAITH is defined as beleviing in the unseen.
Like I never saw the planet Pluto, or any neutrons, or atoms, or Abraham Lincoln or George Washington. Do you beleive in them? Because they have been revealed to me by others, and proven to me to be real by wiser and more educated and knowledgable people who did the research and study, in books, and stories, I accept them and believe in them. FAITH is just that, FAITH. You accept or you do not.

I have an apple sitting right here on my desk. Do you know whether if it is sweet or sour? Of course not. Why not? Because you have not tasted my apple, no matter what anyone tells you, you do not really, really know how it tastes. But what if a billon others tasted it first, right before your eyes, and told you, it tasted sweet. Wouldn't you lean toward being convinced that it is probably a sweet apple?

Well, I have tasted GOD, as many others have. And I have tasted Jesus. And OHHHH , how sweet He is. 

I took an hour and half to write this, so I'm going to post it as a new thread too. Maybe someone will get it.
Now nail me to a tree. I do expect the non-believers to argue and attack.


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## EKIMRI (Mar 11, 2009)

I smart My Q is 81...



and god told me yer dumm. He made everything...


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

TeaTree, dont believe everything you watch on tv and animal planet LOL

yes i agree in evolution of a species.. an adaptation to its environment, however, what i was referring to is the belief that people and animals come from a common ancestor. like humans coming from monkeys.

they claim that there are links between all of the species that are similar to us, however none can be found, no fossils, no bones, no nothing. hell how do we know that they did not devolve from us? the logic is flawed.

they use this argument for fish to reptiles, and all that other stuff, yet there are NO MISSING LINKS that can be found. environmental adaptation is different from the origin of human species that we call evolution.. hell darwin even said he didnt believe his own theory before he died.. go figure


and Rose, while i do feel what you are saying, again, your beliefs are built on faith, not testable, verifiable scientific knowledge that most people are looking for. yes the historical aspect is there and only ignorant people can deny that jesus existed. 

but believing that he existed, and believeing that he died on the cross for our sins, rose again, ascended to heaven, and if we do not believe in him that we will burn in eternal fire and damnation in hell (a church creation), are two completely different ideas. in the actual teachings of jesus he never once said that anyone who did not believe, would be punished, he only said those that do have eternal life. he never preached about going to heaven or hell, only morality and spirituality. and the main difficulties that come with religion is the operations around it, not the core beliefs and morals.. ie the corruption of the church, the violence and prejudice, the manipulation of the bible and the people and so on.

now, yes the apostles chose to die for what they believed in but how is that any different from the cults who commit suicide in the name of their leaders? or those who go to battle and die for their country, or pows who chose to get tortured and beaten instead of giving valuable information.. its about principles, right or wrong. 

some choose to believe in fatih, while others will believe in cynicism, but right or wrong it is because you are a product of your environment, and your beliefs and principles reflect upon that.


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## Roseman (Mar 11, 2009)

FloJo,
I vowed to myself that I'd respond to any inteligent respected poster and post. I respect your post and opinion. I wrote that post just to provide an other side to the coin. I guess I am a New Age Gnostic Universalist, and I think the 2nd biggest enemy God ever had was today's CHURCH. 
Let me address some of your post:

your beliefs are built on faith, not testable, verifiable scientific knowledge that most people are looking for. yes the historical aspect is there and only ignorant people can deny that jesus existed.

I agree. Almost all of my beliefs are based on Faith. I think GOD was always there, but MAN made a lot of mistakes trying to reveal Him to us. Especially in their organized religions and churches.

believeing that he died on the cross for our sins, rose again, ascended to heaven, and if we do not believe in him that we will burn in eternal fire and damnation in hell (a church creation), are two completely different ideas. in the actual teachings of jesus he never once said that anyone who did not believe, would be punished, he only said those that do have eternal life. he never preached about going to heaven or hell, only morality and spirituality. and the main difficulties that come with religion is the operations around it, not the core beliefs and morals.. 

wow, so you've read the Bible? Again, you;re right on. AND I AGREE. Very seldom did Jesus mention Heaven or Hell, and it was never based on WRONG DOINGS, or breaking the Commandments. It was always about NOT doing Good, (visiting the sick, imprisoned, feeding the hungry) and never about DOING BAD OR WRONG. 
now, yes the apostles chose to die for what they believed in but how is that any different from the cults who commit suicide in the name of their leaders? or those who go to battle and die for their country, or pows who chose to get tortured and beaten instead of giving valuable information.. its about principles, right or wrong. 

WELL, IT IS NOT MUCH DIFFERENT. Flying a plane into the building on 9-1-1, did not make the pilot RIGHT in his beliefs. He died beleiving in his death, he'd get a free go to heaven pass. He also did it for himself.
 There are a lot of writings of recorded history, from Jews and Romans, about their deaths. But with the apostles' death, they feared not seeing Jesus again, they feared shame, and they wanted to prove something to the others there. They just could not deny that they saw the living Jesus. Peter could have saved his wife from crucifixtion. Andrew could have ran away instead of being stoned to death. Those are not quick, die in a second deaths as in an airplance crash. It jsut seems to me, after the torture began, they would have given in and yielded to the pain. 


My enviroment has led me to be a believer. It's a decision, a choice. I think Jesus was the first hippy, a radical, and some of the words accredited to him were jsut plainly misunderstood by zealots. But I still admire him, I still like to feel his caring for me. I have accepted him as part of my reality. And Budha too. They work for me.


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## mogie (Mar 11, 2009)

Hey Roseman how you doing buddy? We miss ya.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 11, 2009)

*More Americans say they have no religion*

A wide-ranging study on American religious life found that the Roman Catholic population has been shifting out of the Northeast to the Southwest, the percentage of Christians in the nation has declined and more people say they have no religion at all. 

Fifteen percent of respondents said they had no religion, an increase from 14.2% in 2001 and 8.2% in 1990, according to the American Religious Identification Survey.

Northern New England surpassed the Pacific Northwest as the least religious region, with Vermont reporting the highest share of those claiming no religion, at 34 percent. Still, the study found that the numbers of Americans with no religion rose in every state.

&#8220;No other religious bloc has kept such a pace in every state,&#8221; the study&#8217;s authors said.

In the Northeast, self-identified Catholics made up 36% of adults last year, down from 43% in 1990. At the same time, however, Catholics grew to about one-third of the adult population in California and Texas, and one-quarter of Floridians, largely due to Latino immigration, according to the research.

Nationally, Catholics remain the largest religious group, with 57 million people saying they belong to the church. The tradition gained 11 million followers since 1990, but its share of the population fell by about a percentage point to 25 percent.
Christians who aren&#8217;t Catholic also are a declining segment of the country.

In 2008, Christians comprised 76 percent of U.S. adults, compared to about 77% in 2001 and about 86% in 1990. Researchers said the dwindling ranks of mainline Protestants, including Methodists, Lutherans and Episcopalians, largely explains the shift. Over the last seven years, mainline Protestants dropped from just over 17% to 12.9% of the population.

The report from The Program on Public Values at Trinity College in Hartford, Conn., surveyed 54,461 adults in English or Spanish from February through November of last year. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 0.5% points. The findings are part of a series of studies on American religion by the program that will later look more closely at reasons behind the trends.
The current survey, being released Monday, found traditional organized religion playing less of a role in many lives. Thirty percent of married couples did not have a religious wedding ceremony and 27% of respondents said they did not want a religious funeral.

About 12% of Americans believe in a higher power but not the personal God at the core of monotheistic faiths. And, since 1990, a slightly greater share of respondents &#8212; 1.2% &#8212; said they were part of new religious movements, including Scientology, Wicca and Santeria.

The study also found signs of a growing influence of churches that either don&#8217;t belong to a denomination or play down their membership in a religious group.
Respondents who called themselves &#8220;non-denominational Christian&#8221; grew from 0.1% in 1990 to 3.5% last year. Congregations that most often use the term are megachurches considered &#8220;seeker sensitive.&#8221; They use rock style music and less structured prayer to attract people who don&#8217;t usually attend church. 
Researchers also found a small increase in those who prefer being called evangelical or born-again, rather than claim membership in a denomination.
Evangelical or born-again Americans make up 34% of all American adults and 45% of all Christians and Catholics, the study found. Researchers found that 18% of Catholics consider themselves born-again or evangelical, and nearly 39% of mainline Protestants prefer those labels. Many mainline Protestant groups are riven by conflict over how they should interpret what the Bible says about gay relationships, salvation and other issues.

The percentage of Pentecostals remained mostly steady since 1990 at 3.5%, a surprising finding considering the dramatic spread of the tradition worldwide. Pentecostals are known for a spirited form of Christianity that includes speaking in tongues and a belief in modern-day miracles.

Mormon numbers also held steady over the period at 1.4% of the population, while the number of Jews who described themselves as religiously observant continued to drop, from 1.8% in 1990 to 1.2 percent, or 2.7 million people, last year. Researchers plan a broader survey on people who consider themselves culturally Jewish but aren&#8217;t religious.

The study found that the percentage of Americans who identified themselves as Muslim grew to 0.6% of the population, while growth in Eastern religions such as Buddhism slightly slowed.



http://www.freep.com/article/20090310/NEWS07/90310012/-1/rss07


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

i agree with you Rose great post. I am interpreting your beliefs as more spiritual than religious. I think spirituality is a great thing, and we are spiritual beings, but religion is like a mental prison. I respect your beliefs and i think the world would be a much better place if more people were spiritual, and less religious... +rep

great info Stoney.. seems like for once people are actually thinking about what they are being taught instead of following like sheeple.. maybe there is still hope lol


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## Roseman (Mar 11, 2009)

Organized Religon Sucks.
All about $$$ and power.


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## Roseman (Mar 11, 2009)

Now I just turned 60 years old, and have been a radical hippie all of my life. 
Ask yourself, why would an old hippy man, with 4 years of college and a successful business owner, spend several hours a day, helping newbies that he will never know or meet, grow pot? For REP points ? LOL
 Why would I stick my neck out and create this post? I'm just giving, I 'm just paying it forward, I am planting what I want to harvest. I enjoy being liked in oppsoed to being disliked. 
How often do you meet a person that genuinely cares? 
You just don't know how a pair of shoes will feel, until you try them on. 
I wish everyone could taste my apple and try these shoes on first, then see what it feels like. 
You'd like it.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 11, 2009)

I've tasted that apple. With respect, good works come from within a person, not an external entity.Your beliefs only apply to YOU, not anyone else.There is more than one path, and not everyone is on the same one.


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

FLoJo, oh, so a missing link like... say... a walking fish?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_fish

Yes, those exist.

Or a fox bat, because foxes evolved from bats:

http://www.google.com/search?client=opera&rls=en&q=fox+bat&sourceid=opera&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8

How do we know this? Because one exists in fossil records while another doesn't.

It's not perfect, but far from illogical.


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## EKIMRI (Mar 11, 2009)

The same rules apply on any path you choose.

Pay it forward, do unto others... Regardless from whence inspiration springs, in the end doing what's right and doing what's in your own best interest are the same thing. Different paths, same destination.


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

Roseman said:


> Now I just turned 60 years old, and have been a radical hippie all of my life.
> Ask yourself, why would an old hippy man, with 4 years of college and a successful business owner, spend several hours a day, helping newbies that he will never know or meet, grow pot? For REP points ? LOL
> Why would I stick my neck out and create this post? I'm just giving, I 'm just paying it forward, I am planting what I want to harvest. I enjoy being liked in oppsoed to being disliked.
> How often do you meet a person that genuinely cares?
> ...


well said my friend well said... but we know you do it for the rep points  LOL


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

TeaTreeOil said:


> FLoJo, oh, so a missing link like... say... a walking fish?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_fish
> 
> ...



like i said, i believe in environmental evolution, adapting to conditions in the ecosystem.. but trying to say that people evolved from monkies who evolved from this and that that evolved from the walking fish, which evolved from the shrimp in the ocean and an amoeba on the ocean floor is ludicrous my friend, just ludicrous.. if darwin discounted his own theory before he died who are you to say he was correct?

anyways can we stick to religion, ill debate evolution with you on another thread


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

*Chimpanzees are so closely related to humans that they should properly be considered as members of the human family, according to new genetic research. *  




We shared a common ancestor many millions of years ago

Scientists from the Wayne State University, School of Medicine, Detroit, US, examined key genes in humans and several ape species and found our "life code" to be 99.4% the same as chimps. 
They propose moving common chimps and another very closely related ape, bonobos, into the genus, _Homo_, the taxonomic grouping researchers use to classify people in the animal kingdom. 
Humans, or _Homo sapiens_ to give the species its scientific name, are the only living organism in the genus at the moment - although some extinct creatures such as Neanderthals (_Homo Neanderthalis_) also occupy the same grouping. 
*Six species* 
"Since people have been studying primate evolution, there's been this dichotomy between humans and the apes," said Dr Derek Wildman, who has published the findings of the genetic study with colleagues in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences (PNAS). 
"And so what we've shown is that humans and chimpanzees are actually more similar to each other than either is to any of the other apes," he told BBC News Online. 
Modern genetic science offers researchers another way to establish the relationships between different species, by measuring the similarity of their DNA code. 
It is a far cry from the traditional way of categorising organisms on the basis of what they look like, either live or in fossil form. 
The Detroit team compared 97 important genes from six different species: humans, chimpanzees, gorillas, orang-utans, Old World monkeys, and mice. 
From this, the scientists constructed an evolutionary tree that measured the degree of relatedness among the organisms. 
*Horses and donkeys* 
According to this analysis, chimpanzees and humans occupy sister branches on a family tree, with 99.4% genetic similarity. Next on the tree are gorillas, then orang-utans, followed by Old World monkeys. 
None of the primates were closely related to mice, which were used as a control. 
Dr Wildman said: "You could say that humans and chimps are as similar to one another as say horses and donkeys. 
"And there really isn't much evidence for them to be divergent at the family level, which would be something like the divergence between apes and monkeys. 
"There has been this notion since Aristotle's time of this great chain of being with humans at the top and then less complex life at the bottom. But while that might seem intuitive to some people, it doesn't appear to be borne out by the data. 
"There's been as much change on the lineage on the line leading to chimpanzees as there has been on the lineage to humans since they last shared a common ancestor around six million years ago." 
*Chimp troubles* 
The Detroit team says its work supports the idea that all living apes should occupy the higher taxonomic grouping Hominidae, and that three species be established under the _Homo_ genus. 
One would be _Homo (Homo) sapiens_, or humans; the second would be _Homo (Pan) troglodytes_, or common chimpanzees, and the third would be _Homo (Pan) paniscus_, or bonobos. 
Not all scientists will accept the new classification. 
Whereas Dr Wildman's team find that chimps and humans are 99.4% similar, other researchers last year put the similarity at around 95%; the figure you get depends on precisely which genetic differences you look at. 
As to whether this will improve the lot of chimpanzees themselves, a spokeswoman for the conservation group the Jane Goodall Foundation was skeptical. 
The problems of habitat loss and commercial bushmeat hunting would continue whatever genus we put them in, she said.


out.


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

*Mice and men share about 97.5 per cent of their working DNA, just one per cent less than chimps and humans. The new estimate is based on the comparison of mouse chromosome 16 with human DNA. Previous estimates had suggested mouse-human differences as high as 15 per cent.*
*The new work suggests that neither genome has changed much since we shared a common ancestor 100 million years ago. "The differences are going to be few rather than many," says Richard Mural of Celera Genomics, the Maryland company that compared the mouse chromosome with human DNA. *
*"Perhaps 100 million years separating the two genomes is not long enough for wholesale rearrangement," says Mural, or conservation may be necessary to preserve essential functions.*
*However, Tim Hubbard, head of genome analysis at the Sanger Institute in Cambridge, UK, is sceptical about the significance of the 2.5 per cent difference. He thinks that the genes might in fact all be identical and that differences between species might arise solely through divergence in the "regulatory regions" which switch other genes on and off.*
*Nonetheless, scientists are hopeful that the close match will enable researchers to unpick much more rapidly the genetic roots of human disease. By "knocking out" genes in mice using genetic engineering, they can learn the gene's function.*
*Doppelganger genes*

*Mural and his colleagues found chunk after chunk of matching DNA in mice and humans. Of the 731 genes they located on the mouse chromosome, only 14 did not have a doppelganger in humans. Likewise, there were only 21 genes in the corresponding regions of human DNA that did not turn up in the mouse. *
*Unlike its human genome sequence, Celera is publishing the mouse chromosome 16 data openly on the internet. But the remaining mouse data will require subscribers to pay to see it. "We've no real plans to publish anything more," says Mural.*
*A version of the mouse genome is already available free of charge on the internet, assembled by researchers at publicly-funded institutes around the world. The Sanger Institute is one of the participating institutes and Hubbard claims that the Celera data is inferior. *
*"We have fewer gaps, and overall our fragments are larger," he says. He dismisses the Celera paper as little more than a puff for the company: "It's a taster for what they are selling." *

*Journal reference: Science (vol 296, p 1661)*




so i guess we are just like mice too? its all about how you measure the data.. scientists can show us to have over 90 percent genetic similarities with just about every species on the planet... maybe cuz we are all on the same planet?


its a bunch of pseudo scientific bullshit.. scientists believed the world was flat and that earth was the center of the universe at times too.... very wrong.. 



evolution cannot be proven, and we were never apes period.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

No we were never apes but we did spring from a common ancestor. By the way I would have absolutely no problem if we were chimp like once. Who cares?

out.


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## Roseman (Mar 11, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> I've tasted that apple. With respect, good works come from within a person, not an external entity.Your beliefs only apply to YOU, not anyone else.There is more than one path, and not everyone is on the same one.


 
I can't disagree or argue with you. You are absolutely right. 

I am going to UNSUBSCRIBE here, and move on. I actually started this on a different thread and will move it there to

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/171226-i-believe-god-he-real.html

Peace be with you


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

Yes yes, shuffle off.

out.


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

if you dont care then why do you keep trying to prove it?

i care because i think it downplays the importance of humanity by saying that we are nothing but animals.. we are spiritual beings which is why we have a drive to find a purpose in life and discover our roots and our future.. we are the only beings on this planet that operate on consciousness and not instinct.. if we are so close to apes came from them why are they not making works of expression through art and building temples and worshiping gods? because we evolve faster? i think not

no amount of evolution can create spirituality in my opinion, or free thinking. while we may still have similar traits like hair, walking on 2 legs, and we breathe air, that does not mean that we are the same. 

again i say, i dont believe that we came from apes, i would think it would be more feasible to believe that apes descended from humans, and not the other way around.

i think that we were more spiritual at times, which is obvious in the beliefs and culture of ancient civilizations with their intense knowledge of celestial bodies and ceremonies of worship around them. i feel that with technology we have stopped looking at ourselves as beings, and started looking at ourselves as animals. we have progressed in technology but digressed in spirituality which is what makes us human in the first place.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

Why does it downplay our importance? I certainly don't feel the heat from chimps... 

out.


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> if you dont care then why do you keep trying to prove it?
> *
> i care because i think it downplays the importance of humanity by saying that we are nothing but animals*.. we are spiritual beings which is why we have a drive to find a purpose in life and discover our roots and our future.. we are the only beings on this planet that operate on consciousness and not instinct.. if we are so close to apes came from them why are they not making works of expression through art and building temples and worshiping gods? because we evolve faster? i think not
> 
> ...



its all right there.. im not feeling the heat from chips, im feeling the heat from other humans who act like animals


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

Okay, I can repeat myself too  Man and ape come from a common ancestor. Chimps didn't come from us and vice versa. I think you are getting a bit confused with that point. So man doesn't have instincts?  uhhh.

out.


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

ok cracker, believe whatever you want its really no skin off my nuts, but i will never believe that man and chimp or any other animal had a common ancestor.. ill believe a desperate man fucked a monkey creature and made some chimps thats about it.

and i never said man didnt have instincts.. of course we have instincts, but we do not live by our instincts, we are capable of creativity and decision making and have a conscience, whereas animals live purely by their instincts. if animals had all this we would have deers painting picassos, chimps building skyscrapers, and fish preaching the gospel and birds coming up with new philosophy...

you will not convince me, your argument is redundant, and again this is a religious thread, if you wanna talk about evolution go start a thread, im done

FLo


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## CrackerJax (Mar 11, 2009)

We are also capable of tremendous cruelty, usually with a religious backdrop.

I'm not trying to convince you. You simply reject the science which you don't like while you take full advantage of the ones you do like. Lots of folks take that road. 

out.


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 11, 2009)

FLoJo said:


> ill believe a desperate man fucked a monkey creature and made some chimps thats about it.
> 
> FLo


Interesting. That _would_ explain a lot.

So why aren't all humans the same? Different skin colors, different shapes, sizes, bone structures, etc.

So is one form of man then greater than the others? One is the most... what? Pure? Are you a bigot by any chance? Also, how long have you been a specist?

Do you idolize those who'd bring about genocide?


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 11, 2009)

Actually, there is a place for evolution here.Most folks who reject religion lean toward evolution.We Evolutionists are representing the other side of the coin.Fair and balanced.


FLoJo said:


> you will not convince me, your argument is redundant, and again this is a religious thread, if you wanna talk about evolution go start a thread, im done
> 
> FLo


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## FLoJo (Mar 11, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> We are also capable of tremendous cruelty, usually with a religious backdrop.
> 
> I'm not trying to convince you. You simply reject the science which you don't like while you take full advantage of the ones you do like. Lots of folks take that road.
> 
> out.


right that is part of our conscious that allows us to be good and bad, do right or wrong... animals dont make that distinction, they go on instinct.

i dont reject the science i want, i accept it all, i just showed you an article that said we were 2.5 percent genetically different from mice. could it be because we, like everything living on this planet are carbon based life forms? why does it have to be that we had a common ancestor with primates? science only can theorize, they cannot prove it, and they dont have enough evidence to lean conclusively that way... and agin i bring up the point that darwin, who created the theory you preach, did not believe in it, and he spent his entire life studying it, yet you believe it because you read a few snippets on the net? 


and TeaTree, like we were talking about, environmental adaptation, which is like evolution within a species as you know.. 

dark people are dark due to being on a continent with great exposure to the sun, and hotter climates, this goes on every side of the world, from africa, south america, asia etc.. people with fair skin are in typically colder, less harsh climates such as europe, russia and siberia, canada etc. they also tend to have thicker facial and body hair presumably to protect themselves from the elements makes sense considering even if a fair skinned person is in the sun, they will get dark.. people are of different shapes an sizes due to the same thing along with diets.. like they say you are what you eat, and your body reflects that .. again this is purely theory represented by various scientific research, but it makes a hell of a lot more sense than humans coming from monkeys...

and no, i am not a bigot, i am not a racist, i am not a specist.. why do you try to lash out at me? is it because you cannot debate the facts? are you getting frustrated? i believe that despite the changes and differences on the outside, humans are still spiritual beings operating in human vessels, and just because they may have evolved differently over time in different areas, doesnt make anyone any better or worse than another. all men are created equal

haha stoney, just like fox news.. well that is true. people are always searching for something to believe in. i myself am not religious, and have fairly radical beliefs if i laid them all out.. i also do not understand how people can believe in the theory of evolution in the sense of the origin of man and species.. i can understand how people can believe in environmental adaptation because it makes sense, but trying to link them all together just seems silly to me. 

in the end people will believe what they want to believe until something better comes along. since we are all looking to believe in something, generally people will llook for something that goes along with their situation in life or lifestyle, not neccisarily the truth. people can theorise and throw scientific research at eachother back and forth but an infinite amount of arguements and debunks can be made to satisfy the other party.. in the end its all about personal choice and what rings true in the mind of the beholder.


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 12, 2009)

Eskimos have darker skin. Native Americans are all darker skinned.

You're trying to create causation where there is merely _some_ correlation.

As it seemed, both North and South America were all people of medium tone skin before Europeans came(Americans, Canadians, etc). But even within that common trait there are hundreds of sub traits that are all genetically spread. Native (blood) people from similar areas all look similar. It's not solely environmental. If you move to Africa you don't magically gain the genetic traits of dark skin and curly hair.

There's certainly no convincing anyone of evolution if they don't know some history.

White people are a minority in the world. They fled from Europe, and now are losing numbers once again in North America.

No one ever said evolution was a 'one way street'. That a species only evolves to greater and greater. It certainly can go both ways.

You seem like a specist, to me. http://www.reference.com/search?q=Specist

What do you think? Should all animals have equal rights? Does the inability for one to defend itself strip it of it's rights somehow?


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## FLoJo (Mar 12, 2009)

correct but what you fail to take into account is the fact that with tectonic plate movements people became isolated over millions of years and continents drifted apart, so where they may have originally adapted for millions of years, is not the same as where they ended up millions of years later, and without intermixing the traits would remain fairly similar throughout extended periods of time. and of course if you move to africa you dont turn black and get curly hair but if you live in the deserts and savannas for millions of years you would... hell if you go there for a month you get a hellacious tan and people might think you are black lol

and no like i said we are beings, not animals, i think we are the rulers of this planet and at the top of the food chain and animals are below us.. sure there are animals on this planet that can potentially eat us, but there are none that can outsmart us which makes us dominant


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 12, 2009)

I don't think you realize how slowly tectonic plates move.

Humans(homosapian) are only believed to be a few millions years old(Ethiopia skeleton). So Christianity has existed for .05% of humanities known existence. Amazingly over 99.95%(temporally) of all humans ever born over time have gone to hell because they have not accepted JC as their personal savior, been baptized, repented, or whatever.

The oldest found/known skeletal human remains in the Americas is about 14,000 years old according to this Nat Geo article: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/09/080903-oldest-skeletons.html

Evolution is a rapid process. You just can miss it easily... not even living for 100 years. Evolution is all around you. Viruses can evolve several times a year. The flu virus evolves yearly, and that's why people continue to get sick. They lack antibodies for the newly evolved forms. Where do all new diseases come from? Why do new species continue to be discovered? Why have we tracked the rise and fall of so many creatures though out numerous eras in history? From massive global extinctions to a planet once again vibrant with diverse life(and yet not the same exact life, curious, seems almost 'random').

Evolution is just as natural as gravity.


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## FLoJo (Mar 12, 2009)

tea tree, you keep comparing apples to oranges. i dont think you know anything about how much i know.. i dont think you know how tectonic plates move, i can sit here and write pages about how the earth changes and evolves, how plates swallow each other over time, how life adapts in various forms.. you keep using things i agree with to try and compare it to your bottom line..

heres the bottom line, i already stated i believe in environmental adaptation which is what you keep talking about, yes it is as natural as gravity i agree. yes the earth constantly changes and creates unique ecosystems for various life forms to adapt at different rates of speed, but no matter what scientific bs you come up with and try to throw at me you cant sit here and try to tell me we evolved from apes.. 

if you are trying to say something else say it, if not hold your breath because scientists and researchers have been trying to prove it since darwin, and if they cant do it neither can you.

and as far as the christianity comment i donno where you were going with that because if you read my posts you will see i have stated i am not christian, i dont believe jesus is the end all be all, and i dont believe in a heaven or a hell.

and evolution is a slow process my friend.. natural evolution that is.
we humans tend to cause changes that are contrary to natural environments which can speed up the process of adaptation enormously.. and the flu virus does not evolve every year, if you believe that then you definitely buy into all the bs you read in natgeo and watch on the discovery channel (thats where most of your info sounds like its coming from) the flu virus is manipulated every year and the various viruses, enzymes, and chemicals that they put into flu vaccines causes it to adapt.. it was bioengeneered from the start.

you keep coming at me with the same stuff trying to manipulate the debate away from the core so this will be my last post.. i think you make a lot of good points but you need to look at what those points actuallly point to... and quit watching nat geo and discovery lol

later

FLo


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 12, 2009)

So where did humans come from?

So you're a conspiracy theorist.

Calling it environmental adaptation is like calling a computer silicon. You're missing a lot of pieces.

Yes, many lifeforms share similar genes, while others do not. For instance similar genes are found even between the common house fly and humans.

If we did not come from apes, do we agree humans and apes share a common ancestor?
Humans and rabbits? Humans and lizards? Humans and fish?

If not apes, then from where did we originate?

You assume the virus is 'adapting' because of vaccines but can't see it mutating on it's own due to host immunity or any other reasons?

It all seems really short-sighted.

I see mutation(evolution) as a requirement for further existence due to corruption of host DNA over time.


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## DrGreenFinger (Mar 12, 2009)

Intellect will not lead to an understanding of spiritual principles, as they are spiritually discerned. If an individual truly seeks God, it must be through allowing God to communicate through their spirit (again, not to be carnally discerned). Science can't help.

It's all right there in the manual...The Bible.


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## TeaTreeOil (Mar 12, 2009)

This seems fitting about now: http://www.milkandcookies.com/link/151588/detail/


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## CrackerJax (Mar 12, 2009)

Intellect will not lead you to the Bible either. 


out.


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## DrGreenFinger (Mar 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Intellect will not lead you to the Bible either.
> 
> 
> out.


obviously true. my point, no connection between intelligence and discerning our Creator's legitimacy. one thing is definite, ALL will know one day. i don't condemn or hate. i pray that ALL (every COLOR, creed, etc.) come to own a personal relationship with Christ. blessings.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 12, 2009)

Yes, Christianity is a perfect slave religion. One of the reasons it is so popular. Be good in life, accept your circumstance, the payoff is after you die. Now that is one of the best carny tricks ever pulled... 

out.


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## DrGreenFinger (Mar 12, 2009)

satan IS masterful, crafty, and cunning. shouldn't he be? he has some very intelligent targets for his kingdom. they won't go down easy.


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## DrGreenFinger (Mar 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Yes, Christianity is a perfect slave religion. One of the reasons it is so popular.
> out.


you make me wanna crack jokes with ya ("watch out! 's comin' to get ya" ), but this really is a serious topic. jax, i have had extensive experiences with spirituality, trust me. cats will make jokes, but i HAVE actually seen prayer stop pouring down rain...within seconds. no coincidence because the prayer was not submitted under selfish motives. God's will was the motivation. if you line your will with the will of God, you will become aware of more than you ever thought possible. revelation is awesome.

wanna hear about the time i actually saw demons? real talk! i have a thousand of 'em.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 12, 2009)

The devil is the very same thing as Jesus....a myth. 

out.


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## DrGreenFinger (Mar 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> The devil is the very same thing as Jesus....a myth.
> 
> out.


you're trying to get me out there with you.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 12, 2009)

Here kitty kitty... 


out.


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## DrGreenFinger (Mar 12, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Here kitty kitty...
> 
> 
> out.


 you're nuts


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## CrackerJax (Mar 12, 2009)

Just the two... 

out.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 12, 2009)

Sorry.I don't believe anything I don't see and experience for myself.


DrGreenFinger said:


> you make me wanna crack jokes with ya ("watch out! 's comin' to get ya" ), but this really is a serious topic. jax, i have had extensive experiences with spirituality, trust me. cats will make jokes, but i HAVE actually seen prayer stop pouring down rain...within seconds. no coincidence because the prayer was not submitted under selfish motives. God's will was the motivation. if you line your will with the will of God, you will become aware of more than you ever thought possible. revelation is awesome.
> 
> wanna hear about the time i actually saw demons? real talk! i have a thousand of 'em.


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## NewGrowth (Mar 12, 2009)

Farooq87 said:


> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/2111174/Intelligent-people-'less-likely-to-believe-in-God'.html
> 
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6W4M-4SD1KNR-1&_user=10&_coverDate=04/29/2008&_alid=759868596&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=search&_cdi=6546&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_ct=1&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=bdb3ca48b21fdb2959f6f8ce4b6001de
> 
> Discuss....


Well that makes sense. Education breeds out dark age crap like religion.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 12, 2009)

That drippy comment by greenfickled makes me think of the old indian adage about rain dancing.

You know why the rain dance always worked?

Cuz they wouldn't stop dancing until it did.  

Boy I guess G*D sure can't stand indians either. Oh my.

out.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 13, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> That drippy comment by greenfickled makes me think of the old indian adage about rain dancing.
> 
> You know why the rain dance always worked?
> 
> ...


What a Hateful thing to say.

I hope you're proud of what your people did to the Natives.

Why don't you fuck of to your "Ignorant-Shit-talking-twats" Forum, this is a weed growing forum, filled with mellow stoners, no one wants to read your ignorant shit.

Is your life really so sad the only thing you can think to do is try to offend people you have little in common with over the internet?


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 13, 2009)

Well, I, for one, like Cracker's comments, and I didn't find it offensive.He tells it like it is.


Jointsmith said:


> What a Hateful thing to say.
> 
> I hope you're proud of what your people did to the Natives.
> 
> ...


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## CrackerJax (Mar 13, 2009)

he's a little slow and ill mannered.... be patient stoney. 

out.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 13, 2009)

Meh, everybody is growly.Dr.Stoney says, get laid twice,and come back in the morning.Everyone.


CrackerJax said:


> he's a little slow and ill mannered.... be patient stoney.
> 
> out.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 13, 2009)

Why only twice? 

out.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 13, 2009)

Cuz you're gonna do it sloooooooooow.


CrackerJax said:


> Why only twice?
> 
> out.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 13, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> Well, I, for one, like Cracker's comments, and I didn't find it offensive.He tells it like it is.


Well, I, for one, think Crackers' comments are ignorant and offensive, in fact, many of his comment have the *sole intention* of offending their subject.

This is a weed growing forum, a place for mellow stoners and cultivar's, to learn and exchange idea's.

So Stoney, YOU may think it's ok for sad lonely loosers to spread they're hate online.

I, however, will continue to call him out on his ignorant and offensive posts in whatever thread he happens to be ruining.

Then again, I see you too have way too many posts to have a life offline, maybe thats why the two of you are always on here acting like internet Bigshots.

Lol, Sad.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 13, 2009)

Yeah, nice how you make assumptions about someone based on post count.Having an opinion isn't hating on someone.And I act the exact same way in real life.
So, if you don't like it, RIU has provided you with a handy ignore feature.Why not use it?Have a good day.


Jointsmith said:


> Well, I, for one, think Crackers' comments are ignorant and offensive, in fact, many of his comment have the *sole intention* of offending their subject.
> 
> This is a weed growing forum, a place for mellow stoners and cultivar's, to learn and exchange idea's.
> 
> ...


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## CrackerJax (Mar 13, 2009)

Stoney McFried said:


> Cuz you're gonna do it sloooooooooow.




As in most things worth doing , you are correct!! Every now and again it is great to hear your mate say, "can you hurry up and finish already"! 

yes, indeed use the ignore if you cannot handle the truth. 


out.


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## Jointsmith (Mar 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> As in most things worth doing , you are correct!! Every now and again it is great to hear your mate say, "can you hurry up and finish already"!
> 
> yes, indeed use the ignore if you cannot handle the truth.
> 
> ...


Do you know the Meaning of the word IGNORANCE....

Yes we all know how you like to IGNOR things CrackerJackass.


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## NewGrowth (Mar 19, 2009)

I got laid for you stoney chillin' naked now. So back to how intelligent people don't believe in God . . .


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## CrackerJax (Mar 19, 2009)

I can't post with that much pressure.



out.


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## engineeredweed (Mar 19, 2009)

To take religion as the answer to life is stupid.. to take science as the same is just as stupid.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 19, 2009)

Not sure what's left there Engine... 

I look at it this way. 

Religion says they have the answer. 

Science asks the questions.

I prefer to ask then to assume.

out.


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## poplars (Mar 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Not sure what's left there Engine...
> 
> I look at it this way.
> 
> ...


fuck yeah, I don't need to say anymore you've said everything I represent in this post.


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## eelloopp (Mar 19, 2009)

Religion was created to control the masses through fear of eternal damnation. Period.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 19, 2009)

Don't TASE me G*D!!! 


out.


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## NewGrowth (Mar 19, 2009)

CrackerJax said:


> Don't TASE me G*D!!!
> 
> 
> out.


Awesome "Don't tase me bra!"


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## CrackerJax (Mar 19, 2009)

He'll need a cattle prod on my arse...



out.


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## NewGrowth (Mar 19, 2009)

Your smilies are out of control Jax


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## CrackerJax (Mar 19, 2009)

Battle of the Smileys? Bring it on!!   


out.


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## NewGrowth (Mar 19, 2009)

JERONIMO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## CrackerJax (Mar 20, 2009)

In a sneak attack using superior technology CrackAH beams in and fries the New G....





Then whips on over to New G's crib and bangs his GF... 

 




out.


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## NewGrowth (Mar 20, 2009)

NewGrowth regroups glowing from radiation






Some of his pussy ass men come out of hiding






Some of Jax's tech is stolen






NG's new advanced battle bots are activated






His girlfriend is executed for treason






And the battle continues Jax on the run . . . for now


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## CrackerJax (Mar 20, 2009)

G*D in his infinite wisdom smites down NG's pussy troops....

 

While NG's GF is able to wriggle away because of CJ's amazing love drops...

   

She gives birth to CJ jr. the new future leader in waiting...


 


The battle bots prove formidable....

 

but are finally distracted by NG's recovered JILTED GF....
   


Leaving only CJ and NG left for a duel....

 


Fighting to a draw, CJ is forced to kick NG in the nuts till he is unconscious...


 

And wakes up just in time to meet his doom...

 


continued?.... muhahaha! (this has been a CJ presentation)


out.


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## NewGrowth (Mar 20, 2009)

NG's brain is captured and downloaded into a superior robot body






He then decides it would be more fun to just roll a fatty


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## CrackerJax (Mar 20, 2009)

Agreed.... this is too much like work!!! let's party!!


 



out.


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## DarkSarcasm420 (Mar 20, 2009)

eelloopp said:


> Religion was created to control the masses through fear of eternal damnation. Period.


well to that i can say this. Education was created to control the masses until they have the ability to control themselves properly. prison was created for those that cant learn to control themselves.

oh and to the religion doesnt ask questions. how do you think they were formed. religion was really just early science. most stories found within religions texts serve to explain something in nature or some behavior. 

what it is is that back them there were no real ways to test hypotheses so ppl would just tell stories. if something was difficult to explain they would attribute that to some kind of higher being. 

whose to say there isnt some kind of higher being out there. i dont kno and cant prove it either way.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 20, 2009)

Cracker, NG, get over to the action figure thread and start posting.We need talent over there.


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## CrackerJax (Mar 20, 2009)

Action Figures!! I'm on it.... I used to even have the GI Joe personal sub!!


out.


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## Stoney McFried (Mar 20, 2009)

https://www.rollitup.org/toke-n-talk/93048-action-figure-thread.html#post1094348 There ya go!


CrackerJax said:


> Action Figures!! I'm on it.... I used to even have the GI Joe personal sub!!
> 
> 
> out.


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