# All BS set aside CMH yields



## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

Ok like the topic says many tend to think that 315 CMH or the CDM grow lights are producers for instance they state that the 315 watt CMH yields same as 600 watt HPS 
Alright CMH growers with all bull shit set aside what are the numbers coming in at is it blowing 600's out of the water


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 24, 2015)

Why debate it? Try both and see what works right FOR YOU. And please don't use a 2000 RPM versus 4000 RPM anology to explain your position. Thanks.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

Its not about what works right for you its about if it yields same or more then a 600 watt hps that so many are claiming i am being unbiased here one can say CMH has been out for some time now so should some numbers 
what i am saying does it stack up to there claims that it yields same as a 600


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 24, 2015)

No you are NOT! You're sad, lonely and bored. You wanted to start an argumentative thread to get some fussing going on. 

That's ok. We here in the RIU are all about peace and love bro. We appreciate your sharing of the details of your sad, lonely life. Heck. It makes the rest of us feel better about our won lives. We really ain't got it that bad. We love you bro. Feel the love man. You should be having an awesome day just because YOU ARE AWESOME! 

@Darth Vapour feel the love man.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

On the "Graph" that everybody displays, they seem to radiate 3-4 times the amount of PAR light energy (across the whole "Growing" spectrum) compared to an "equal" HPS light. Ifthat's true, shouldn't they produce 3-4 times the yield (or, at least, a significant imrovement - perhaps at least double!)? The more reshearch I do, the more it seems that CMH'saren't that much better then a good MH/HPS "Dual Spectrum" light, or mixed HPS's and MH's used "side-by-side".


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

So the question is Growurown dank do you use CMH lighting and if so which one are you using ??? 315 watt ??? are you getting 630 dry grams per run on one of these and that is the question Again if CMH is suppose to be the grow light bomb then why is it not in everyones grow room >>>???? 
Or is it the numbers are not stacking up


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 24, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> "everybody displays"
> "seem to"
> "compared to"
> "shouldn't they"
> ...


Sorry dude. Just not feeling the all sciencey essence your trying to sell. But we love you for the effort. Everybody gets a ribbon. Peace and love.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

haha what am i trying to sell but nothing just want to here from real growers unlike your self that have used or still do use CMH and what there results are is all,,,, nothing to do with selling anything


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 24, 2015)

You changed the thread title. lol. It's all good bro. I swear I am going to have ease up on the kief for real. Stuff is like potent as well, pretty darn potent.

Since you mentioned 2000 vs 4000 RPM, that was for an automobile right? Seems like the true power range would be more toward the 4K end. Maybe a smidge higher. Would depend on a lot of factors. Like engine design. Of course Diesel engines are different. Their RPM range is tiny compared to an automobile gas engine. Then of course. A bike might have an even broader RPM range. And of course and as always, there are more factors in play here. Such as engine design and build.

So I don't really know the answer to your question. I personally think God is real. But, that's a personal relationship I have with God. And I don't mind if you don't feel the same way.

Yet, I like Trump. He's entertaining. May not be worth a damn as prez I honestly don't know. I admittedly haven't studied the issues. But he might be a hoot to listen to during speeches for 4 years.

I say just go with your gut on this one bro. Peace and love.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> You changed the thread title. lol. It's all good bro. I swear I am going to have ease up on the kief for real. Stuff is like potent as well, pretty darn potent.
> 
> Since you mentioned 2000 vs 4000 RPM, that was for an automobile right? Seems like the true power range would be more toward the 4K end. Maybe a smidge higher. Would depend on a lot of factors. Like engine design. Of course Diesel engines are different. Their RPM range is tiny compared to an automobile gas engine. Then of course. A bike might have an even broader RPM range. And of course and as always, there are more factors in play here. Such as engine design and build.
> 
> ...


i couldn't resist the car analogy.
The power range of any engine is dictated on the design and volumetric displacement. Some can make up for displacement by either forced induction, direct fuel injection or variable valve timing/lift/duration, further more, wankel and some mazda engines like to incorporate even different methods.
Personally i like the advantage of a high-revving four cylinder with a variable valve train. BUT i commute in it, so having 210 hp in a car weighing a ton is good, i get 30mpg as long as i stay off the high cam lobes.
Annd if someone in a 40 thousand dollar BMW is being a dick, he can get stomped on by my 20yr old Nissan...
That is priceless by the way...

I personally am an atheist, but that's because science and me are buddies.
And i don't like trump.
So we are vastly different.
Now... about those CMH...


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> i couldn't resist the car analogy.
> The power range of any engine is dictated on the design and volumetric displacement. Some can make up for displacement by either forced induction, direct fuel injection or variable valve timing/lift/duration, further more, wankel and some mazda engines like to incorporate even different methods.
> I personally am an atheist, but that's because science and me are buddies.
> And i don't like trump.
> ...


I am so flattered bro. I wasn't trying to be all sciencey about it or nothing. Apparently tho, maybe I have a knack for it? Peace and love.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> I am so flattered bro. I wasn't trying to be all sciencey about it or nothing. Apparently tho, maybe I have a knack for it? Peace and love.


im a car nerd man... i have an insane passion and love for anything about organics, cars, music annnnnd my first and true love... WOMEN....


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

Soon as someone starts a thread like this it becomes evident people go on the defensive this is not about anything other then having true growers that use this reply to what they see is better or not , did yields double 315 watt CMH if comparable to 600 better pull a pound for a novice grower just saying 
Grease monkey i have come to realize most people like grow your on dank are real new to the lights growing so rather then answer like he did he should of been thinking this might be a good thread being look at what he is interested in 

https://www.rollitup.org/t/150-watt-hps.857668/

Its not about fighting with people on here anymore its about realizing that there wet behind the ear still


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 24, 2015)

I'm starting to get that sciencey vibe now bro(toke). I think you're finally feeling the love man. Just be awesome! 

What did you say again? 

Oh yeah. Cars. Yeah, I like my motorvehicles. I like watching Chips reruns because that was during my era as a young adult. Old pintos, AMC lol, ten they got lots of bad ass camaros and stuff like back in the day. 15" 50 slickers with big old fat tires and stuff. I mean, I know it's old tech, but that shit is cool compared to today's 22"ers with that same ole spoke of different size mag wheels. Yeah, kinda stuck somewhere between the 60's and 80's. Though I like the new camaros too. Much better than stangs, tho I certainly appreciate them as well. Camaro is just my preference. But, anyway I really wish they would bring back the firebird trans am too. Good looking out bro.


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## pseudobotanist (Sep 24, 2015)

I thought the cmh was discontinued?


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 24, 2015)

pseudobotanist said:


> I thought the cmh was discontinued?


So what do you think about the rear of the new corvettes? I mean, I don't know. They went so far away from tradition it doesn't look like a corvette rear end. Maybe it will grow on me. One of my favs is still the 78 Anniversary Special. Silver and black two tone with the red pin stripe. I mean I like them all, but for some reason I am drawn to that. Or the silver 63 split window. Yeah, that's probably my fav with te 78 running second.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

pseudobotanist said:


> I thought the cmh was discontinued?


http://growershouse.com/sun-system-lec-630-light-emitting-ceramic-mh-fixture-277-v-w-3100-k-lamps


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## pseudobotanist (Sep 24, 2015)

That's awesome! Would be cool to run it and see.

And @GrowUrOwnDank i really don't have a comment for you...


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## GroErr (Sep 24, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Ok like the topic says many tend to think that 315 CMH or the CDM grow lights are producers for instance they state that the 315 watt CMH yields same as 600 watt HPS
> Alright CMH growers with all bull shit set aside what are the numbers coming in at is it blowing 600's out of the water


I've been using the 315's for a year. Normally grow about 7-9 strains and don't go for yield, more variety, quality, pheno hunts, seeds and the like. Growing for yield and efficiency is about genetics and filling your maximum sq. footage with bud. I can run all the Blue Pyramid I want and won't get shit for yields in comparison to something like a Blue Dream or a cross I have that will pull ~1 oz. per gallon of medium. I did one run with 4x Blue Dream's in ~3.5 x 3.5'and pulled 13 zips total, one plant got some kind of root issue and pulled only 2 zips. Pretty sure with either of my producers, a clean 3.5 x 3.5 x 3.5' run it would pull an elbow. Not bad for a 315w bulb, SCROG/Hydro would likely pull more. Is it better than a 600? Too many variables unless you did a proper side by side, same environment, clones from same strain etc.. Does it matter? imo yes for flexibility and coverage, if I can run 2x 315w and pull 1.5 - 2 lbs. going for yield, I wouldn't switch to a single 600, or even the double 630 CMH. 2x 315's with the hood (Sun Systems) can cover 3.5 x 7ft (24.5 sq. ft.) well and in that setup I'd bet it could pull more than either 600 or 630 all other factors being equal.



Cheers


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

GroErr said:


> I've been using the 315's for a year. Normally grow about 7-9 strains and don't go for yield, more variety, quality, pheno hunts, seeds and the like. Growing for yield and efficiency is about genetics and filling your maximum sq. footage with bud. I can run all the Blue Pyramid I want and won't get shit for yields in comparison to something like a Blue Dream or a cross I have that will pull ~1 oz. per gallon of medium. I did one run with 4x Blue Dream's in ~3.5 x 3.5'and pulled 13 zips total, one plant got some kind of root issue and pulled only 2 zips. Pretty sure with either of my producers, a clean 3.5 x 3.5 x 3.5' run it would pull an elbow. Not bad for a 315w bulb, SCROG/Hydro would likely pull more. Is it better than a 600? Too many variables unless you did a proper side by side, same environment, clones from same strain etc.. Does it matter? imo yes for flexibility and coverage, if I can run 2x 315w and pull 1.5 - 2 lbs. going for yield, I wouldn't switch to a single 600, or even the double 630 CMH. 2x 315's with the hood (Sun Systems) can cover 3.5 x 7ft (24.5 sq. ft.) well and in that setup I'd bet it could pull more than either 600 or 630 all other factors being equal.
> View attachment 3507352
> View attachment 3507353
> 
> Cheers


this is what i want to here honest opinions great job bro


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## Doogan (Sep 24, 2015)

There so many ways to grow. Keep it easy. Lets say use: Soil, T5 in veg, no nutes in veg save $, (18/6) in veg to save $, HPS in bud, feed during bud only, use a (11/13) cycle to save $. Easy. Pruning, light burn, over water, air movement, mold/mildew, trellis. All things that the grower needs to do and will reap the benefits.


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## Trippyness (Sep 25, 2015)

I am also looking into CMH.

I am currently set on nanolux DE fixtures but I see some promise in CMH with efficiency, Heat.
I just see the footprint is quite small.

But the price isnt too bad.

I believe there is a 850w CMH and 900 out there.

I am not sure of the penatration either.
Seems like a good light source if there are good results/yeilds for the Cash crop growers here.


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## Frazer (Dec 18, 2015)

Trippyness said:


> I am also looking into CMH.
> 
> I am currently set on nanolux DE fixtures but I see some promise in CMH with efficiency, Heat.
> I just see the footprint is quite small.
> ...


I have the 630 from Nanolux running. I love it! It's changed the whole structure of my plant. The whole thing, including the leaves are thicker, and more robust. If you're running multiple 630s they work even better. They work a lot like the DE with the interlacing light pattern. You can get good canopy penetration with that since much of the light will be coming in at an angle.

I've heard about the bigger CMH fixtures too. The lifespan is much shorter making the ROI a bit slower, but the quality will go way up. That can help compensate on price.


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## Detroit J420 (Dec 18, 2015)

a cmh should only be used like, inbetween goin from veg to bloom for a week , say your runnen 18/6 mh drop down to 16/8 for a week before 12/12 under just hps, plants get darker green and harden off better before the intense hps your bought to hit em with, uvb lighting in nature is highest in summer (veg) not bloom, (more natural high following nature) i tried vegging with cmh but the particular strain and cut i run kicks out way to many hairs in veg, my cut needs strictly white light in veg even leds fuck em up,


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## GroErr (Dec 18, 2015)

Detroit J420 said:


> a cmh should only be used like, inbetween goin from veg to bloom for a week , say your runnen 18/6 mh drop down to 16/8 for a week before 12/12 under just hps, plants get darker green and harden off better before the intense hps your bought to hit em with, uvb lighting in nature is highest in summer (veg) not bloom, (more natural high following nature) i tried vegging with cmh but the particular strain and cut i run kicks out way to many hairs in veg, my cut needs strictly white light in veg even leds fuck em up,


We're talking specifically the 315w Philips Elite Agro CMH here, the 630's just use two bulbs per fixture. These bulbs are not MH or even like other CMH bulbs. If you had used one of these I doubt you'd be saying to use them for veg only. You can pull a lb. of dry flowers with one 315w bulb in soil with these and top shelf quality.


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## patrickkawi37 (Dec 18, 2015)

I hear the cmh produce great quality .. But dudes hitting 2.5 per light with gavita 600/750de . I don't see a 315wcmh getting close to that yield per fixture


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## GroErr (Dec 18, 2015)

patrickkawi37 said:


> I hear the cmh produce great quality .. But dudes hitting 2.5 per light with gavita 600/750de . I don't see a 315wcmh getting close to that yield per fixture


No, certainly not 1 but they're more efficient on paper so if you compared apples to apples across the environment, methods used (e.g. vertical, hydro), strain etc. I'm pretty sure they'd pull a lot more than 2 lbs. for 2 lights. I'd love to see someone with experience in hydro, vertical grow with a big producing strain using a couple of these 315's bare-bulb, pretty sure they'd be blown away considering the draw. Any of the numbers I've been talking about have been up soil/hp-pro-mix with a light over them in a hobby grow. Using more advanced methods targeted at yields each bulb can pull much more.


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## Sire Killem All (Dec 18, 2015)

@Merlin34 is doing a nice thread on here. He got 450 of the CMH going in one room. @Frazer


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## GroErr (Dec 18, 2015)

Sire Killem All said:


> @Merlin34 is doing a nice thread on here. He got 450 of the CMH going in one room. @Frazer


Yeah, great thread I've been following it, he's running 1x 315w per 4x4' area but in his warehouse setup and with so many of them the light spread and cross-over is so much that he can do that. Great thread highlighting this tech for sure. Cheers.


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## Merlin34 (Dec 18, 2015)

Well, my big grow is just getting filled up so I don't have yield info from mine. But we have a smaller grow and have been doing side by sides, HPS 1000s vs the 315s. The 1000s have been yielding more on the same square footage of floor space, but it's real close. The grower there (who I don't think is using the 315s right... His are way to close) is pulling more than an elbow a 315. Looking at my plants now that are 4 weeks in I'm positive I'm going to crush his numbers. The one thing the side by side has deffinatly told us is that we see a 20-30% increase in THC with the 315s when running the same strains under both sets, HPS and 315s.

Colorado


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## Merlin34 (Dec 18, 2015)

Clarification... He's running 3 315s per 4x8 tray and 2 1000s per 4x8, with the 2 1000s out yielding the 3 315s, but not by a whole lot.

Colorado


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## febisfebi (Dec 18, 2015)

CMH is not discontinued, just the old "Retro-White" is gone. but the new "CDM Energy Advantage AllStart" lamps are even more efficient and use only 330w on a 400w mag ballast. and it can be hps or mh ballast with the new allstarts. there is an 860w version that runs on a 1000w mag ballast, but if you look at the spectrum, it is not the same as the 400's and is more suited for a streetlight or soccer field light. It is missing the low blue/UVA that the 400 is rich in. But I have heard good comments even about these in combination with HPS. As far as UVB. your not gonna get much from any bulb on the market except reptile bulbs and other specialty UVB lamps. Any horticultural bulb I have seen that claims to put out UV, if you look at the spectrum it is UVA at best. UVB is between 280 and 315nm. I have never seen a spectral chart that went that low, and UVB is blocked by most glass anyways.
CMH is more of a supplemental light, that should be used in combination with an HPS to get real results. The resulting spectrum is great for plants, I have heard it can produce amazing results in this combination CMH 400w 4.2k for every 1000w HPS, or if you want to do all CMH use one 4.2k for every 2 3.1k CMH, which has more of a flowering spectrum. but thats a lot of 400w ballasts. your money would better be spent on 4.2k's to go with cheap HPS 1000watters. 
Keep in mind however there are now many different full spectrum bulbs available on the market. the best known, and most expensive to operate is the hortilux blue, but ushio, sunmaster, and solis-tek, and something called U-Light now I am seeing adds for, but they all make a full line of full spectrum bulbs, to be used as SUPPLEMENTAL lights.


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## Merlin34 (Dec 18, 2015)

Agreed on the 860s. I used them for a while. They're garbage.

Colorado


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## febisfebi (Dec 18, 2015)

I wouldnt agree that its garbage, Philips makes a high quality product. It was never designed to be used as a horti bulb, which is why you might consider it garbage. Its more of a high quality streetlight. The old 400's and now the 330/315w 4.2k's all have a nice supplemental Horti spectrum, that we can all take advantage of for cheap, compared to other full spectrum bulbs, but you will notice the spike in green which is meant for humans ( the only part of the visible spectrum plants cannot photosynthesize. Again, CMH was never designed to be a Horti bulb, it just happens to work well in certain configurations. but to compare directly to HPS in yeild is like comparing a toyota supra to a tractor.


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## MistaRasta (Dec 18, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> CMH is not discontinued, just the old "Retro-White" is gone. but the new "CDM Energy Advantage AllStart" lamps are even more efficient and use only 330w on a 400w mag ballast. and it can be hps or mh ballast with the new allstarts. there is an 860w version that runs on a 1000w mag ballast, but if you look at the spectrum, it is not the same as the 400's and is more suited for a streetlight or soccer field light. It is missing the low blue/UVA that the 400 is rich in. But I have heard good comments even about these in combination with HPS. As far as UVB. your not gonna get much from any bulb on the market except reptile bulbs and other specialty UVB lamps. Any horticultural bulb I have seen that claims to put out UV, if you look at the spectrum it is UVA at best. UVB is between 280 and 315nm. I have never seen a spectral chart that went that low, and UVB is blocked by most glass anyways.
> CMH is more of a supplemental light, that should be used in combination with an HPS to get real results. The resulting spectrum is great for plants, I have heard it can produce amazing results in this combination CMH 400w 4.2k for every 1000w HPS, or if you want to do all CMH use one 4.2k for every 2 3.1k CMH, which has more of a flowering spectrum. but thats a lot of 400w ballasts. your money would better be spent on 4.2k's to go with cheap HPS 1000watters.
> Keep in mind however there are now many different full spectrum bulbs available on the market. the best known, and most expensive to operate is the hortilux blue, but ushio, sunmaster, and solis-tek, and something called U-Light now I am seeing adds for, but they all make a full line of full spectrum bulbs, to be used as SUPPLEMENTAL lights.



Very good info, thank you for posting this. May I ask if the cdm bulbs are the same spectrum as the cmh's? You also say that the hortilux blue has the best all around spectrum in the game. You think the cdm can match this spectrum??

I ask because I was about to order 400 watt blues and came across this thread, read your post and did a little research (it's late) but couldn't find the spectrum of cDms.. Thanks for posting again, I was sad to see the 400w Phillips cmh bulb go, but this is a new solution if the cdm is as good as the cmh bulb.


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## Merlin34 (Dec 18, 2015)

I've used horti blues and loved them, except their incredibly short life span... These are the CDMs I use. Spectrum is close to horti blues, but a waaaaay longer lifespan. http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/lamps/high-intensity-discharge-lamps/ceramic-metal-halide/mastercolor-cdm-t-elite-med-wattage/928601164802_NA/product

Colorado


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## Sire Killem All (Dec 18, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> CMH is not discontinued, just the old "Retro-White" is gone. but the new "CDM Energy Advantage AllStart" lamps are even more efficient and use only 330w on a 400w mag ballast. and it can be hps or mh ballast with the new allstarts. there is an 860w version that runs on a 1000w mag ballast, but if you look at the spectrum, it is not the same as the 400's and is more suited for a streetlight or soccer field light. It is missing the low blue/UVA that the 400 is rich in. But I have heard good comments even about these in combination with HPS. As far as UVB. your not gonna get much from any bulb on the market except reptile bulbs and other specialty UVB lamps. Any horticultural bulb I have seen that claims to put out UV, if you look at the spectrum it is UVA at best. UVB is between 280 and 315nm. I have never seen a spectral chart that went that low, and UVB is blocked by most glass anyways.
> CMH is more of a supplemental light, that should be used in combination with an HPS to get real results. The resulting spectrum is great for plants, I have heard it can produce amazing results in this combination CMH 400w 4.2k for every 1000w HPS, or if you want to do all CMH use one 4.2k for every 2 3.1k CMH, which has more of a flowering spectrum. but thats a lot of 400w ballasts. your money would better be spent on 4.2k's to go with cheap HPS 1000watters.
> Keep in mind however there are now many different full spectrum bulbs available on the market. the best known, and most expensive to operate is the hortilux blue, but ushio, sunmaster, and solis-tek, and something called U-Light now I am seeing adds for, but they all make a full line of full spectrum bulbs, to be used as SUPPLEMENTAL lights.


The 860 on 1000w ballast still runs at 1100w. There is no savings on CMH running mag ballast. So they were garbage before they got screwed in.


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## febisfebi (Dec 19, 2015)

MistaRasta said:


> Very good info, thank you for posting this. May I ask if the cdm bulbs are the same spectrum as the cmh's? You also say that the hortilux blue has the best all around spectrum in the game. You think the cdm can match this spectrum??
> 
> I ask because I was about to order 400 watt blues and came across this thread, read your post and did a little research (it's late) but couldn't find the spectrum of cDms.. Thanks for posting again, I was sad to see the 400w Phillips cmh bulb go, but this is a new solution if the cdm is as good as the cmh bulb.


The Old 400w Retro-White, the new 330w CDM allstart, are the same exact spectrm. the 315 elite MW "LEC" that sun system and nanolux are selling are similar spectrum but different. Nanolux and sun system are calling it CMH and "LEC" and pretending it is something "special" or proprietary. but the truth is, they are avoiding using the name CDM to keep us confused, since what they are really selling, is technically a CDM. The new CDM bulbs are not only the same spectrum as the old retro-white, they also have similar output using 70-85w less, which makes the Retro-white obsolete. People keep crying about the discontination of this product, and I was originally thinking the same thing, and almost orderd a bunch of old stock from some electrical supply store until I realized there was a reason they stopped making them. Not because they were bad, just obselete.
the nanolux doesnt even come with a bulb, it is a direct fit with philips CDM 315 that uses a different non mogul socket. They wouldnt want to use the standard Mogul version that is 15 watts more and therefore higher output, because then people would realize that they arent doing anything special, and they are charging like they are. Sun system is doing the same thing and calling it LEC with the same bulb.
If it were me, l would get the 330 EA Allstart, unless you are stuck on the spectrum of the 315. The 330 is more even spread, less peaks and valleys, but might have higher output in the areas of the spectrum we are after when using supplemental lights. It has mogul compatable socket, even though that is easy enough to overcome. Ebay sells an adapter to use the 315 in a mogul socket, but its an extra $15 and has your bulb hanging on a 2inch piece of nonsene, so why waste your money and time, when the 330 has higher output, and you have the option of 2 different bulb size/shapes, one small, one bigger. both are round in shape,but not so big your cooltube will get clogged, instead of a stick bulb, which is good if you are using a focal point reflector, but this bulb is a little short for that.. the rounded ones make a better spread in both vertical and horizontal operation, and are especially good for vertical hanging, although there are more important things to consider than bulb shape. The new ones are universal burn, meaning you can use them in any position, so you can see what works best without being stuck with one or the other like you were with the retro-white.

I want to be clear however, I never meant to make any claim about which Full spectrum bulb is the best, I am currently trying to figure that out myself. but certainly not the hortilux blue. it is long outdated, and way over priced, Like most Horticultural bulbs are, but hortilux have been taking that to the extreme, i mean $200 for a 1kw? but they were the only option on the market for a long time besides the CMH which nobody knew about, because they didnt sell them in grow stores and only recently have they started selling the overpriced ones to uneducated people with money. The spectrum on the hortilux blue 400 looks nicer than the 1kw basketball sized bulb, but the output is less than CDM despite the 70-95w less power it uses, and the hortilux cost as much as three of them, and CDM's are not cheap.
I hear Philips had to manufacture all CMH and CDM bulbs in factories in US, and possibly Germany/Japan. Chinese QC was not up to par for the Ceramic Arc tube containment, which can rupture in cheap non philips CMH bulbs. This containment used to be a solid metal wire, on the retro-white, giving it that super cool look, but now they have a better, extra tough glass layer that doesnt block the light spread. Sadly this means that 99% of our horti specific bulbs are made in China, if it was that big of a deal for Philips to have them made somewhere else.
Also just to note, the only horti bulb I know of that is even rated for 10k hrs is a Philips DE greenpower. If that tells you anything.
Philips makes great products, you can never go wrong with their quality and reliability, as long as you get genuine philips product. Always read the glass, and make sure you have the right product.
Personally, I am now looking to the higher output bulbs full spectrum bulbs, so I dont have to run 2, 3, or 4 more ballasts. The sunmaster full nova has the nicest looking spectral distribution(for supplemental lighting) I have seen, and comes in 4,6 and 1000 watts, and since it is a supplemental light, we are looking for more of the lower end of the spectrum, since our HPS has the other end covered. when using it as a supplemental light, you are giving more of your wattage to the wrong end of the spectrum(red) which is already saturated by HPS and doesnt need supplementing. This is assuming the sunmaster performs as advertised, and since I dont own a spetroradiometer, I will have no way of really knowing. It will really come down to how the thing performs, and thats all I can say about that.
I looked long and hard into the CDM, and I decided to try something else. I still think the CDM is a great product, but I think its size can be limiting.
They are supposed to be incredibly efficient at turning electricity into light without creating heat, and therefore wasting energy, and causing the need for more cooling, and thus more energy. for a closet, im sure it would be a hell of a lot better than a T5. They go for about $70-80 a peice, which is a fair price for a quality product that will outlast just about anything else out there, but its original cheap price adds up when your using many bulbs. But just imagine buying a bunch of sun system or nanolux setups. for $800 for a 2 bulb setup $400 for a single, only to find out you could have gotten the same thing for 1/10th the cost. I thought $80 for the bulb was expensive. So when you compare to that, they are really a bargain. even if you are using 15 of them to get proper coverage.
I would love to run double end full spectrum bulbs, but currently the only choice is solis-tek, and until people have used them, I dont want to sink all that money into them just yet, they are too new to have reliable data out there on them, and DE setups are expensive for my taste when we are still trying something new out. ill save my DE setups for HPS bulbs for now.
the number one reason people are not running or even trying CDM/CMH, (and talking shit about them instead) is that they wont work on their cheap chinese eballast, or their overly expensive name brand eballast that is in all likelihood very similar to the cheap one. Companies say their ballast's have more "stable" output, but unless its "stable" enough to run a double end bulb, then that is just talk as far as im concerned. Sunmaster is supposed to come out with DE sometime in 2016. so after my 5000hrs are up, assuming I like the results, then I can upgrade.
Also another thing worth mentioning. If you are into full spectrum setups, your genetics selection is just as important as your spectral distribution. You are creating an outdoor like environment, so you want to look for outdoor bred strains. This is only an issue because people have been growing under HPS only for so long, most strains have become accustomed to it, and when you throw them outside or use them in this type of setup they are unable to take advantage of it. People will think your crazy looking for outdoor strains in the middle of winter, but that is what you need to see the real gains. Keep in mind, these gains will mostly be realized in Quality. not neccesarily quantity, although that can be achieved too. there are just a lot of other factors. Genetics only being one of them, that quantify yeild. But hopefully this will give you something to start with anyways.
I wish you luck in your bulb selection. I would love to test every setup out there and compare notes and figure out which is the absolute most efficcient setup possible! but its enough $$ to just try a single setup, let alone 10 different ones. And there are new ones coming out all the time. We will just have to see.


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## febisfebi (Dec 19, 2015)

Sire Killem All said:


> The 860 on 1000w ballast still runs at 1100w. There is no savings on CMH running mag ballast. So they were garbage before they got screwed in.


where do you get your information? the 860's were never meant for horticultural use, and if they are truly that inneficient on old mag ballasts, that doesnt mean they inneficient to begin with. with the proper ballast CDM bulbs only need about 135v or something real low, so there is obviously some power wasted there, considering most HID bulbs are 400v. I have heard the opposite regarding the 315/330's, that they simply draw less power from mag ballasts, which is why I am wondering where you heard that?


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## MistaRasta (Dec 19, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> The Old 400w Retro-White, the new 330w CDM allstart, are the same exact spectrm. the 315 elite MW "LEC" that sun system and nanolux are selling are similar spectrum but different. Nanolux and sun system are calling it CMH and "LEC" and pretending it is something "special" or proprietary. but the truth is, they are avoiding using the name CDM to keep us confused, since what they are really selling, is technically a CDM. The new CDM bulbs are not only the same spectrum as the old retro-white, they also have similar output using 70-85w less, which makes the Retro-white obsolete. People keep crying about the discontination of this product, and I was originally thinking the same thing, and almost orderd a bunch of old stock from some electrical supply store until I realized there was a reason they stopped making them. Not because they were bad, just obselete.
> the nanolux doesnt even come with a bulb, it is a direct fit with philips CDM 315 that uses a different non mogul socket. They wouldnt want to use the standard Mogul version that is 15 watts more and therefore higher output, because then people would realize that they arent doing anything special, and they are charging like they are. Sun system is doing the same thing and calling it LEC with the same bulb.
> If it were me, l would get the 330 EA Allstart, unless you are stuck on the spectrum of the 315. The 330 is more even spread, less peaks and valleys, but might have higher output in the areas of the spectrum we are after when using supplemental lights. It has mogul compatable socket, even though that is easy enough to overcome. Ebay sells an adapter to use the 315 in a mogul socket, but its an extra $15 and has your bulb hanging on a 2inch piece of nonsene, so why waste your money and time, when the 330 has higher output, and you have the option of 2 different bulb size/shapes, one small, one bigger. both are round in shape,but not so big your cooltube will get clogged, instead of a stick bulb, which is good if you are using a focal point reflector, but this bulb is a little short for that.. the rounded ones make a better spread in both vertical and horizontal operation, and are especially good for vertical hanging, although there are more important things to consider than bulb shape. The new ones are universal burn, meaning you can use them in any position, so you can see what works best without being stuck with one or the other like you were with the retro-white.
> 
> ...



Wow, thank you for all the detail.
I will look into them some more as you definitely have me interested. What does Cdm stand for? And how is different from Lec?


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## elkamino (Dec 19, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> where do you get your information? the 860's were never meant for horticultural use, and if they are truly that inneficient on old mag ballasts, that doesnt mean they inneficient to begin with. with the proper ballast CDM bulbs only need about 135v or something real low, so there is obviously some power wasted there, considering most HID bulbs are 400v. I have heard the opposite regarding the 315/330's, that they simply draw less power from mag ballasts, which is why I am wondering where you heard that?


@ttystikk want to weigh in here?  

I know he's been looking at exactly this for a long tme and probably has something to offer...


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

elkamino said:


> @ttystikk want to weigh in here?
> 
> I know he's been looking at exactly this for a long tme and probably has something to offer...


I will defer to others about the performance of the 315W CMH/LEC. I've heard some people compare them to about 400W of HPS, others say they'll do better if hung and run differently. 

I will say that these lamps are all the same tech with very minor differences, and that as such the efficiency and spectrum improvements are due to the ballast they run on. Examples; 

860CDM lamps run on either 1000W magnetic ballasts or a very special 920/950W ballast that I've only heard about once and could not buy (and never will, for reasons discussed below). My Kill-a-watt told me the magnetic ballast pushes the same thousand watts into the lamp and uses its usual extra hundred to run itself. I ran mine on single phase 240V power. I suspect there's a way to run these or similar ballasts in such a way that they indeed deliver the expected 860W, perhaps on 208V power. This makes sense because they're industrial lighting products and that's a common voltage in such settings. @homebrew420 might know more about how magnetic ballasts work on voltages other than 120/240.

All that said, if they deliver the performance they do now while pulling only the wattage they promised, they'd be a decent light. As it is, it's a terrible mismatch between bulb and driver, killing efficiency and thus making these 'garbage' for high performance gardening. They ARE very cheap to get into, but I'd be looking to run a crop or two with them just to save enough for better lighting, not for long term use. Bottom line is HPS is better. It's the ballast...

By contrast, the 315W CMH is driven by a low frequency digital square wave ballast which makes it a third more efficient than anything running on mag. It also sports an agriculture specific design which optimizes spectrum and irradiance, which together with the well matched driver makes them the MOST efficient HID light currently on the market. 

It's not the lamp, it's the ballast, and building the lamp specifically for it.

I look forward to seeing how these run in a warehouse setting, the cross lighting does make a difference. 

These lamps and the 1150W DE represent the most efficient lighting available... in a bulb. They're good for right about or just a hair over 40%, at least initially. All light bulbs deteriorate with use, it's only a matter of speed. 

FWIW, I'm never going to get that big square wave ballast for 860CDM because I was soooo pissed off upon reading my Kill-a-watt that I decided to replace everything with COB LED... on the spot!


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## febisfebi (Dec 19, 2015)

@ttystikk 
I was afraid of this, when using old mag ballasts. I never could find out for sure, I heard mixed things about this, so I am happy to hear I will be running a more eficcient setup for cheaper. 
I wonder if the nanolux and sun system have the proper ballasts. although I highly doubt it. The only one, like you said is made by philips, and is matched to the exact wattage and voltage of the bulb. and not magnetic.

Anyone use the Sunmaster full nova yet, or will I be the first?

@MistaRasta
Ceramic Discharge Metalhalide is what it stands for. Really no different than CMH just a different acronym. LEC is supposed to mean "Light emitting Ceramic" as a play off "led" but thats just a made up term that sun system is using, to keep us uninformed and ignorant to their marketing schemes.

Good luck to all in choosing your lighting! I would love to see more real world tests like the Kill a watt test. Thanks for that, you answered some long pondered questions of mine. now we need spetroradiometer tests!


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> @ttystikk
> I was afraid of this, when using old mag ballasts. I never could find out for sure, I heard mixed things about this, so I am happy to hear I will be running a more eficcient setup for cheaper.
> I wonder if the nanolux and sun system have the proper ballasts. although I highly doubt it. The only one, like you said is made by philips, and is matched to the exact wattage and voltage of the bulb. and not magnetic.
> 
> ...


Philips isn't the only maker of such ballasts for the 315W CMH. Other makers build them, quality varies, as do specifications.


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## febisfebi (Dec 19, 2015)

I didnt mean that they are the only ballasts for the 315 CMH, they run on any old ballast, just that AFAIK the only ballast that matches the bulb specs closely. there may be others out there that may be better than a 400w mag, but I wouldnt trust anyone but philips to make a matched ballast, and neither should you, without extensive testing with expensive equipment. 
Just as you have found with the Kill-a-watt meter


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> I didnt mean that they are the only ballasts for the 315 CMH, they run on any old ballast, just that AFAIK the only ballast that matches the bulb specs closely. there may be others out there that may be better than a 400w mag, but I wouldnt trust anyone but philips to make a matched ballast, and neither should you, without extensive testing with expensive equipment.
> Just as you have found with the Kill-a-watt meter


My Kill-a-watt was thirty bux, lol

OTOH, I'm still kicking myself for not having done it sooner!

I followed manufacturer's recommendations for 240V installation. They work fine. They just aren't saving any power.

You may be missing the whole point of square wave technology; it lights the lamp better through time.


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## elkamino (Dec 19, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> square wave technology; it lights the lamp better through time.


What does that mean, "through time"?


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## dbkick (Dec 19, 2015)

elkamino said:


> What does that mean, "through time"?


Good question!


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## dbkick (Dec 19, 2015)

And to add the there are plenty other manufacturers making these ballasts that work just as well. Welthink being one, chinese based.
Where are the philips ballasts made?


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## febisfebi (Dec 19, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> My Kill-a-watt was thirty bux, lol
> 
> OTOH, I'm still kicking myself for not having done it sooner!
> 
> ...


definitely a worthy investment for $30. what did you find out when you tried your other HID ballasts? was it just with the CDM 860 on 1kw mag ballast you found this on, or other HID setups as well? I ask, because you mentioned that you switched right over to LED after seeing the results. 
That to me means you didnt like something you saw.


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## Flagg420 (Dec 19, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> Why debate it? Try both and see what works right FOR YOU. And please don't use a 2000 RPM versus 4000 RPM anology to explain your position. Thanks.



Not everyone can just go out and blow several hundred dollars and a few months just to find out what someone in the community already learned, simply to avoid the sharing of knowledge.... thats the opposite of the idea behind this kind of site....

Sean Bean would say "One does not simply 'go get' a CMH lamp system"

Its a major piece of grow equipment, not a loaf of wheat vs. white....


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

elkamino said:


> What does that mean, "through time"?


Magnetic ballasts


febisfebi said:


> definitely a worthy investment for $30. what did you find out when you tried your other HID ballasts? was it just with the CDM 860 on 1kw mag ballast you found this on, or other HID setups as well? I ask, because you mentioned that you switched right over to LED after seeing the results.
> That to me means you didnt like something you saw.


The switch is still impending. Magnetic ballasts aren't smart enough to know what the lamp might want, they just deliver what they're wired for. They drive an HPS or MH thouie just fine.


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## febisfebi (Dec 19, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Magnetic ballasts
> 
> 
> The switch is still impending. Magnetic ballasts aren't smart enough to know what the lamp might want, they just deliver what they're wired for. They drive an HPS or MH thouie just fine.


if thats true, how come the CDM 860 can draw an extra 100w on a 1kw mag?


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## Doogan (Dec 19, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> My Kill-a-watt was thirty bux, lol
> 
> OTOH, I'm still kicking myself for not having done it sooner!
> 
> ...


Inverse square law... Does anyone know what it is?


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## Doogan (Dec 19, 2015)

What are you paying for your ballasts? And what kind are they?


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## febisfebi (Dec 19, 2015)

@ttystikk nevermind, I re read what you said, it sounds like the ballast draws 1100w at 120v in order to supply 1000w at 400v. So it wouldnt matter what bulb you run, still 1100w. I am curious how the eballast's compare though! It would be educational to know the total power draw of our digi's compared with the inneficiency of the mag ballast. 

When your talking about 400w mag ballasts, its not as big of a deal. i mean were talking maybe 440w, to run quality full spectrum bulb, but every watt wasted adds up over time, and the more expeinsive more efficient solution will always pay off in the long run. it just depends how long of a run were talking about..


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## MistaRasta (Dec 19, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> @ttystikk nevermind, I re read what you said, it sounds like the ballast draws 1100w at 120v in order to supply 1000w at 400v. So it wouldnt matter what bulb you run, still 1100w. I am curious how the eballast's compare though! It would be educational to know the total power draw of our digi's compared with the inneficiency of the mag ballast.
> 
> When your talking about 400w mag ballasts, its not as big of a deal. i mean were talking maybe 440w, to run quality full spectrum bulb, but every watt wasted adds up over time, and the more expeinsive more efficient solution will always pay off in the long run. it just depends how long of a run were talking about..



So the ballast doesn't really matter right? It's purely the bulb putting out the spectrum..The only thing I have to be worried about with a 330w cdm running on a 400w magnetic ballast is a waste of 40 watts?

I was wondering how much more efficient those electronic cmh ballasts are. I saw a few 3rd party vendors on eBay advertising for cmh electronic ballasts, but the bulb that fits them is so expensive... 

Would you say using a 330 cdm bulb on a mag ballast is less efficient than the Electronic cmh's they're putting out? (Given all the parameters, not only counting the 40w loss)

You're a gold mine of info btw, it's very much appreciated


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> @ttystikk nevermind, I re read what you said, it sounds like the ballast draws 1100w at 120v in order to supply 1000w at 400v. So it wouldnt matter what bulb you run, still 1100w. I am curious how the eballast's compare though! It would be educational to know the total power draw of our digi's compared with the inneficiency of the mag ballast.
> 
> When your talking about 400w mag ballasts, its not as big of a deal. i mean were talking maybe 440w, to run quality full spectrum bulb, but every watt wasted adds up over time, and the more expeinsive more efficient solution will always pay off in the long run. it just depends how long of a run were talking about..


Thats one inefficiency. The other one is just as significant but might take a little longer to explain; 

Magnetic ballasts use the same sixty cycle AC as the wall current, but their sine wave AC power delivery means that the light is actually flickering 60 times a second! That's where those funny dark lines in pics come from when taking pics under magnetic driven HID lighting. You can see how dark it gets by comparing the dark bars to the bright ones on these photos. 

High frequency digital ballasts make the bulb flicker faster so you don't see it in the pics, but this creates RF interference if not properly shielded... and growers do not know from shielding lol. 

Finally, low frequency digital square wave ballasts are just what they sound like. The square wave output is the sexy part; because it's no longer a sine curve, there is no down time for the arc inside the lamp to flicker, and is instead driven at peak output for almost 100% of the time, giving them both better efficiency and output. The old 330/400W Allstart bulbs are bring phased out because the new lamps pay for themselves several times over in terms of power savings vs the old ones. The light is much more friendly and doesn't flicker, so end of mystery on that. 

Like I've said all along, it's not the bulb, it's the ballast that makes the 315W CMH a more efficient light source. I believe they're in the upper thirties percent efficient at converting watts to PAR. DE is advertised as slightly better, at maybe 42% but there's no comparison between spectrum output.


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## MistaRasta (Dec 19, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Thats one inefficiency. The other one is just as significant but might take a little longer to explain;
> 
> Magnetic ballasts use the same sixty cycle AC as the wall current, but their sine wave AC power delivery means that the light is actually flickering 60 times a second! That's where those funny dark lines in pics come from when taking pics under magnetic driven HID lighting. You can see how dark it gets by comparing the dark bars to the bright ones on these photos.
> 
> ...


They're phasing out the 330 cdms? May I ask your opinion on the newer cheaper cmh electronic ballasts? Haven't looked much into them, just noticed them when I was browsing.. Seems like sun system is setting the standard with the lec..


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## borbor (Dec 19, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> FWIW, I'm never going to get that big square wave ballast for 860CDM because I was soooo pissed off upon reading my Kill-a-watt that I decided to replace everything with COB LED... on the spot!


if we're thinking of the same ballast, DNA lighting is out of business and I heard from a couple of people (I know, not exactly scientific rigor) that they were dangerous.


also, hey errybody, I got about a pound off of 6 plants in a 4x4 on my first grow, mostly of EXTREME quality, with an lec 315 and two area 51 RW-75s. 50 day veg.

More recently, about six weeks ago I got about 6 ounces off of one plant ('twas 155 grams I think) that was under two of the LECs side by side sharing a tent with four other plants. If I could get it dialed in and stopped doing perpetual, I think I could harvest two pounds out of 630 watts, I don't even think it'd be that much of a challenge.

And the quality kills it.
If, hypothetically, it became illegal to use anything other than HPS, I would stop growing. I have good friends that grow with HPS, good friends with sub-par ganja, that's for damn sure!


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

borbor said:


> if we're thinking of the same ballast, DNA lighting is out of business and I heard from a couple of people (I know, not exactly scientific rigor) that they were dangerous.
> 
> 
> also, hey errybody, I got about a pound off of 6 plants in a 4x4 on my first grow, mostly of EXTREME quality, with an lec 315 and two area 51 RW-75s. 50 day veg.
> ...


Agreed. Only thing better is COB LED!


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

Doogan said:


> Inverse square law... Does anyone know what it is?


Of course. Why do you ask?


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## ttystikk (Dec 19, 2015)

borbor said:


> if we're thinking of the same ballast, DNA lighting is out of business and I heard from a couple of people (I know, not exactly scientific rigor) that they were dangerous.
> 
> 
> also, hey errybody, I got about a pound off of 6 plants in a 4x4 on my first grow, mostly of EXTREME quality, with an lec 315 and two area 51 RW-75s. 50 day veg.
> ...


They're really trying to encourage efficiency. Installing 315W CMH lighting gets a rebate from the utility company, as an example.


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## borbor (Dec 19, 2015)

You think I could get one?
hahaha, kidding,
I saw that guy @febisfebi already said this but I want to say it again, LEC, CMH, and CDM all mean exactly the same thing. LEC was thought up by sunlight supply to misinform the ignorant into thinking LEC is some kind of new and innovative tech that hasn't been around for decades. There is new and innovative tech, but it has just about nothing to do with the fact they use ceramic in their lamps. I think it was all because LED and LEP are getting noticed and talked about. I bet if sunlight supply started marketing "LES- Light Emitting Sodium" then their hps sales would double. When I use the term LEC, I'm mostly using it to refer specifically to the sun system "LEC 315" fixture, so if I were to say "my LEC is yielding better than my CMH" then first of all, I'd be stupid, but secondly, I would really be trying to say "my reflector and ballast from sunsystem are yielding better than my phantom CMH ballast and OG reflector."

To put it simply, my LEC fixture is CMH, which also means it is CDM, but if I bought a CMH light from a different company, it would still be CMH, still be CDM, but I wouldn't call it an LEC


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## Doogan (Dec 19, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Of course. Why do you ask?


Just wanted to see. Some people just state specs of the product but really don't understand the science...


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## a senile fungus (Dec 20, 2015)

Just want to reiterate that the 315w cmh MUST run on the low frequency ballast.

The older 400w cmh (and I believe the 330allstart) will run on a mag ballast but the newer 315w CMH must utilize the lower frequency!

Stay safe and research your equipment!


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Dec 20, 2015)

200-300 watt cree cob leds Vs CMH for supplementing a 8ftx8ft grow space in a 11ftx11ft room 8ft ceiling. ??? What do the people think.


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

Doogan said:


> Just wanted to see. Some people just state specs of the product but really don't understand the science...


Trust me when I tell you that's never my problem, lol


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> 200-300 watt cree cob leds Vs CMH for supplementing a 8ftx8ft grow space in a 11ftx11ft room 8ft ceiling. ??? What do the people think.


This people thinks that 315W CMH is worth about 400-450W of HPS, and about 200W of CXB3590 driven at 50W apiece to get 56% efficiency. 

The trend is clearly visible from least efficient to most. Place your bets, mind the fact that you won't be able to give your old lamps away in five years. Cuz COB LED IS that much better- and by then it will also be cheaper.


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## skunkwreck (Dec 20, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Just want to reiterate that the 315w cmh MUST run on the low frequency ballast.
> 
> The older 400w cmh (and I believe the 330allstart) will run on a mag ballast but the newer 315w CMH must utilize the lower frequency!
> 
> Stay safe and research your equipment!


Can I use a 315 CMH in my 400 digi ballast. ?


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## GroErr (Dec 20, 2015)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> 200-300 watt cree cob leds Vs CMH for supplementing a 8ftx8ft grow space in a 11ftx11ft room 8ft ceiling. ??? What do the people think.


There's no question that the latest COB tech like the 3590's is more efficient watt for watt than anything out there. Depending on what you're trying to do and budget I suppose will be your best option. If you have the cash for a 3590 quality COB build, imo they would be your better long term investment. They're also more flexible for supplementing where if you build your own you can spread them where needed/wanted and direct the light exactly where needed. That said, if you're on a tight budget, can't or don't want to DIY and just need some highly efficient extra light quick, you can't go wrong by adding a 315w. If you don't want to DIY the cost of commercial 3590 fixtures is in the $2.50 - $3/watt range, whereas you can pick up a 315w Elite Agro bare bulb with ballast for as low as $200 through Advancedtechlighting.com.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 20, 2015)

skunkwreck said:


> Can I use a 315 CMH in my 400 digi ballast. ?



I would not. There are others here with more knowledge of the tech than I. 

My understanding is that the regular digital ballast will operate at a higher frequency, and it will literally rattle the lamp apart. These lamps are designed for low frequency square wave ballasts. I would never use any equipment in a fashion that it is not intended for!

Hope that helps to answer your question!


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

GroErr said:


> There's no question that the latest COB tech like the 3590's is more efficient watt for watt than anything out there. Depending on what you're trying to do and budget I suppose will be your best option. If you have the cash for a 3590 quality COB build, imo they would be your better long term investment. They're also more flexible for supplementing where if you build your own you can spread them where needed/wanted and direct the light exactly where needed. That said, if you're on a tight budget, can't or don't want to DIY and just need some highly efficient extra light quick, you can't go wrong by adding a 315w. If you don't want to DIY the cost of commercial 3590 fixtures is in the $2.50 - $3/watt range, whereas you can pick up a 315w Elite Agro bare bulb with ballast for as low as $200 through Advancedtechlighting.com.


You can go this route but it just isn't expensive to DIY your own COB LED setup. The basic parts are less than $300, and the kit mentioned above requires electronics knowledge to properly wire it up so you don't fuck up and smoke the ballast. So there ya go, it's already competitive on an initial cost basis, and there is no denying they're better. 

Really, in 2016 the choice is COB LED first, something else if that cannot be sourced as a distant second.


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## tripleD (Dec 20, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> You can go this route but it just isn't expensive to DIY your own COB LED setup. The basic parts are less than $300, and the kit mentioned above requires electronics knowledge to properly wire it up so you don't fuck up and smoke the ballast. So there ya go, it's already competitive on an initial cost basis, and there is no denying they're better.
> 
> Really, in 2016 the choice is COB LED first, something else if that cannot be sourced as a distant second.


For someone who does NOT have the time nor the desire to learn how to DIY which LED system would you recommend?
I am 7weeks into my first grow with a spydr600 & I have bn very pleased so far, but I'm curious if there is a system out there that you wld recommend instead of the spydr in the event that I decide to add another grow room??


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## Sativied (Dec 20, 2015)

dbkick said:


> And to add the there are plenty other manufacturers making these ballasts that work just as well. Welthink being one, chinese based.
> Where are the philips ballasts made?


If not entirely then still partly in china. The real thing often uses more durable components and is subjective to more quality control.

Noticed one recently that sells bulbs and ballasts but 4 sets minimum. Cheap though, about $100 per set including a socket adapter allowing the use of a batwing or other reflector normally used for hps/mh. There are MANY diifent types if 315w bulbs with a large variety of specs and output, some much better than ones I see being sold at amazon, and I doubt everyone is using the best available, skewing the comparisson of the results.

Of course a 600watt hps yields more than a 315w, all marketing bullshit to claim it will outperform a 600w. The 315 does not have to yield 630 to be better though. It's a lot more comparable to a 400watt (specifically the 400w hpi-t plus, a regular mh), but probably a bit easier and more feasible to get a pound from a 315 than a 400. Either way, per watt it should outperform the 400 and 600w regardless. I've actually seen a grow with buds that look like they flowered under hps instead of the leafy stuff I mostly see.

If you get roughly the same from 3x315w as 2x1000 you're doing something very wrong as those 315s will not yield 5 pounds of nuggets.

Growing under high intensity light is not that easy. 600/1000w hps is no toy, requires proper climate control and water and nutrient regime... If you got a pound max with 600w magnetic, SE, then growing with a 315w may be for you. Real men, however, use HPS as nothing beats it, not the 315w (comparing bulb to bulb for a small space)and especially not a cob led... many combined running soft is a different story, and price tag... and indeed:



a senile fungus said:


> I would never use any equipment in a fashion that it is not intended for!


Though the things you can do with an electric toothbrush


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

tripleD said:


> For someone who does NOT have the time nor the desire to learn how to DIY which LED system would you recommend?
> I am 7weeks into my first grow with a spydr600 & I have bn very pleased so far, but I'm curious if there is a system out there that you wld recommend instead of the spydr in the event that I decide to add another grow room??


I just got finished answering exactly the same question on another thread, so forgive the copy n paste; 

If you want to purchase a quality LED panel, you could do a lot worse than panels advertised on this grow forum, like TastyLED or Stephen Johnson Grow Lights. You can speak with the owners of both companies right here and see what real live owners say about their reputation right here as well. 

If you're still dead set on buying old generation tech from another country made by a company with a poor reputation for quality then we wish you the best of luck.


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## tripleD (Dec 20, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I just got finished answering exactly the same question on another thread, so forgive the copy n paste;
> 
> If you want to purchase a quality LED panel, you could do a lot worse than panels advertised on this grow forum, like TastyLED or Stephen Johnson Grow Lights. You can speak with the owners of both companies right here and see what real live owners say about their reputation right here as well.
> 
> If you're still dead set on buying old generation tech from another country made by a company with a poor reputation for quality then we wish you the best of luck.


Thanks for the info you gave in the first paragraph, but I'm not sure that the second paragraph applies to me since the spydr is manufactured by BML in Austin Tx & I don't think they have a bad reputation...
Or am I missing something??


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## Carolina Dream'n (Dec 20, 2015)

Sativied said:


> If not entirely then still partly in china. The real thing often uses more durable components and is subjective to more quality control.
> 
> Noticed one recently that sells bulbs and ballasts but 4 sets minimum. Cheap though, about $100 per set including a socket adapter allowing the use of a batwing or other reflector normally used for hps/mh. There are MANY diifent types if 315w bulbs with a large variety of specs and output, some much better than ones I see being sold at amazon, and I doubt everyone is using the best available, skewing the comparisson of the results.
> 
> ...


That is what I'm saying. Everyone I've talked to that has replaced 2 1000s for 3 315s were only pulling 1.25-1.5 lbs per 1000w. 
I've yet to see a grower pulling 2-2.5 lbs per 1000 changing to them at the same 2 1000s for 3 315s, they do 3 315s per 1000, and claim to be yielding 30 to 40% more with 3 315s than a 1000.


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

tripleD said:


> Thanks for the info you gave in the first paragraph, but I'm not sure that the second paragraph applies to me since the spydr is manufactured by BML in Austin Tx & I don't think they have a bad reputation...
> Or am I missing something??


Don't know about origins, I'm talking about the guts of the device itself. 

I'll just say it; CXB3590 is the best widely available light source for growing indoors. Find fixtures that use them, preferably running them softly to get better efficiency. 

I'm done arguing about the name on the box. It's what's inside that counts!


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## tripleD (Dec 20, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Don't know about origins, I'm talking about the guts of the device itself.
> 
> I'll just say it; CXB3590 is the best widely available light source for growing indoors. Find fixtures that use them, preferably running them softly to get better efficiency.
> 
> I'm done arguing about the name on the box. It's what's inside that counts!


Gotcha! Thanks for the info!


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 20, 2015)

im running 3, 315 wright now and next run under a 1k hps to compare yields... no way can 3 315 watt cmh compare to 2 1k hps thats 945 watts compared to 2,000 watts...however 945 watts cmh easily cover the same space or larger than a 1k hps...i believe the claim that 1 315 watt cmh is comparable to 1 600 watt hps is exagerated.. 1 315 watt cmh can cover the same area as 1 600 watt hps at 2 ft above canopy but yiield will be a bit less..the grams per watt is higher with the cmh tho.


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> im running 3, 315 wright now and next run under a 1k hps to compare yields... no way can 3 315 watt cmh compare to 2 1k hps thats 945 watts compared to 2,000 watts...however 945 watts cmh easily cover the same space or larger than a 1k hps...i believe the claim that 1 315 watt cmh is comparable to 1 600 watt hps is exagerated.. 1 315 watt cmh can cover the same area as 1 600 watt hps at 2 ft above canopy but yiield will be a bit less..the grams per watt is higher with the cmh tho.


Would you accept the equivalence of 400W or 450W HPS to 315W CMH?


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## GroErr (Dec 20, 2015)

When replacing hps with the 315's anyone trying to replace 2x 1000's with 3x 315's is setting an unrealistic expectation and buying into vendor hype. It's ridiculous to think they would yield the same imo. That said, if you're starting from scratch or looking to replace hps, the 315w form factor works in your space and your not willing to invest the kind of money needed to replace it with COBs, I'd still recommend the 315's. Just replace watt for watt and you'll get a 20-30% increase without changing anything else. We did that with my son's setup, he's been crushing his previous numbers by an average of 25% better quality yield which covered the investment in his first full run. That's a win in my books.

Another win imo is straight up replacing a 400w. Many running a 400 will be in a relatively small space and not only save the draw but save and be able to maintain the environment easier due to less overall heat. Although in a small space I'd personally go COBs, if someone is not wanting to DIY or invest in a commercial COB panel, the 315w is a good option in between the two.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 20, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Would you accept the equivalence of 400W or 450W HPS to 315W CMH?


i would say the 315 is more equivilant to 450-500 watts hps.. as for coverage each 315 will cover a 4x4 space well,,so when they are claiming its comparable to a 600 watt hps its the coverage that is the same..


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> i would say the 315 is more equivilant to 450-500 watts hps.. as for coverage each 315 will cover a 4x4 space well,,so when they are claiming its comparable to a 600 watt hps its the coverage that is the same..


There are some who say the cross lighting from many of these will make up for running them at twenty something watts per square foot. I'm skeptical of this claim but they say they did their homework.


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## Sativied (Dec 20, 2015)

Carolina Dream'n said:


> That is what I'm saying. Everyone I've talked to that has replaced 2 1000s for 3 315s were only pulling 1.25-1.5 lbs per 1000w.
> I've yet to see a grower pulling 2-2.5 lbs per 1000 changing to them at the same 2 1000s for 3 315s, they do 3 315s per 1000, and claim to be yielding 30 to 40% more with 3 315s than a 1000.


Right. The 315watter is a fine addition, allowing for more options, can be a great fit for some growers, but they aren't "that" great. They make 400w hps obsolete imo, replacing a 1000watter (boost to 1100) with 3 separate sets however is already not attractive if you run many lamps.



GroErr said:


> Just replace watt for watt and you'll get a 20-30% increase without changing anything else. We did that with my son's setup, he's been crushing his previous numbers by an average of 25% better quality yield which covered the investment in his first full run.


If someone pulls 0.9gpw with hps and 1.2 with cmh that's a 30% gain yes. Yet others grow (easily) over 1.0 gpw with hps in which case it evens out. Not saying your percentage are wrong or anything, but they mean little to nothing without the hard numbers they are based on.

I don't believe cmh results in better quality by default. 

Additionally, to an extend when you spread out the light more than ideal for let's say max oz per sqft, you can increase the gpw relatively (with the downside of getting more leafy bud) skewing those percentages even further. I have a limited space and running low ppf isn't going to increase the total yield from that space. If I run my 600w on 4x5 I will get more in total and higher gpw than I get on 3x4, but also more leafy, more branches, and less swollen, less meat, less of the part I care about. Frosty leaves is nice, but not when it's a trade off with swollen calyxes ("bracts", which have the highest concentration of trichs). I would run them on 3x3' max, or like chemist even less, 2x3 per plant.


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## Sativied (Dec 20, 2015)

And yes, the guy with the 315watters in the warehouse can run them so high up because of the overlap. In dutch green houses they are attached to the ceiling, often over 10 feet. People who bring up inverse square law tend to be the ones who miss the obvious reason why that works...photons don't go poof...overlap...

In fact it is much better for light penetration. If cob leds would have a much wider angle you could hang 20 around the center of the ceiling, aim them so they each individually cover the entire grow surface, all overlapping but from a different angle (directly affecting penetration into the crop) and you get roughly the same ppf as when you would spread out the cobs, aim them down and cover only a portion.

So, light distance is highly overrated, and so is the inverse square law that applies to a single omnidirectional lightsource.


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## GroErr (Dec 20, 2015)

Sativied said:


> If someone pulls 0.9gpw with hps and 1.2 with cmh that's a 30% gain yes. Yet others grow (easily) over 1.0 gpw with hps in which case it evens out. Not saying your percentage are wrong or anything, but they mean little to nothing without the hard numbers they are based on.
> 
> I don't believe cmh results in better quality by default.


Yes, true enough. But if you go from one tech to the other and gain without doing anything, then up your game, there's even more on the table to win.

Quality is somewhat subjective. If I want the best quality I run them under LED's but that could be perception, I don't have access to testing. The LED buds always seem to bring out more frost and terps when I do a run, same strains I'm running under CMH though.


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## febisfebi (Dec 20, 2015)

@ttystikk I like that low frequency square wave tech. if I understand correctly, this would do much the same thing as DE tech in that I it gets rid of the high frequency flashing?


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> @ttystikk I like that low frequency square wave tech. if I understand correctly, this would do much the same thing as DE tech in that I it gets rid of the high frequency flashing?


DE is just a different lamp. It gets its efficiency advantage from high running temperature, this directly from someone who worked at GAvita. Now you know why they run so hot, lol

High frequency digital ballasts are already much more efficient than magnetic ballasts. The flickering is so much faster it disappears. Yet EYE does have a Platinum series ballast that purports to be a low frequency digital square wave specially optimized for SE HPS thouies. They're stupid expensive so no one I know of has bought one and tested it.


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## febisfebi (Dec 20, 2015)

So I wonder then, why the eballast revolution was satisfied with the high frequency version of the mag ballast. I'm sure most people could care less about the RFI but there are some things to consider. You might notice more static on your radio stations, and such. I bring this up becausae when I was a kid I had to study a whole section of a big ass Ham Radio licensing manual, on what else, but "the dangers of Radio Frequency Interference. when using radio transmitter 5watts and higher. Lets pretend for a second that we are not using an eballast, and HID light. Instead we are running a radio station that broadcasts from the top of a mountain to the whole city. The transmitter would be throwing out enourmous amounts of RFI, at huge wattages to reach all those people. If you were the maintenance guy on this transmitter, you might worry about the health issues associated with being in close proximity to that much RFI. There is a reason your talk show host is not up on the mountain, thats because its dangerous. Now im sure you all are scratching your head thinkng "what does this have to do with anything?' But running an eballast or many of them at many KW is not that much different. coming out of our ballast is a nice long cord running to our bulb. I would imagine that setup makes a fine antenna to transmit all the RFI to the whole block, and since we are not trying to run a radio station, thats a bad thing. could even be a health risk. I wouldnt be surprised if it screws with the plants too, as they are living things as well.
Assuming the 5watt and higher radio transmitter is enough to get attention by the government as having health risks? what about the row of 1kw dig ballasts, most of us are running 12+ hours a day. The likely hood of any sort of "sheilding" is very low. I wonder if anyone knows how the RFI output from a 1kw eballast is like when compared to an FM/VHF/UHF radio transmitter. 
@ttystikk maybe you might know more about this?
I heard of one guy who kept geting his cable internet cut off cause they were getting interference from his address. apparently a switch back to his old mag ballasts remedied the problem. It sounds like we should all be using low frequency square wave instead. The tech has been around for a while it seems like... just cheaper I guess, and the promise of slightly less power draw, and "digitalness" was enough to convince most people. 
too bad the only one available for non specialized bulbs, has to be too expensive to even research. But if we had all demanded it back before eballasts, the tech would be available at reasonable prices for non specialized products. Instead the commercial lighting companies are keeping the tech for their own products.
Also , what about DE ballasts, do they oscillate RF in the same way?


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## ttystikk (Dec 20, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> So I wonder then, why the eballast revolution was satisfied with the high frequency version of the mag ballast. I'm sure most people could care less about the RFI but there are some things to consider. You might notice more static on your radio stations, and such. I bring this up becausae when I was a kid I had to study a whole section of a big ass Ham Radio licensing manual, on what else, but "the dangers of Radio Frequency Interference. when using radio transmitter 5watts and higher. Lets pretend for a second that we are not using an eballast, and HID light. Instead we are running a radio station that broadcasts from the top of a mountain to the whole city. The transmitter would be throwing out enourmous amounts of RFI, at huge wattages to reach all those people. If you were the maintenance guy on this transmitter, you might worry about the health issues associated with being in close proximity to that much RFI. There is a reason your talk show host is not up on the mountain, thats because its dangerous. Now im sure you all are scratching your head thinkng "what does this have to do with anything?' But running an eballast or many of them at many KW is not that much different. coming out of our ballast is a nice long cord running to our bulb. I would imagine that setup makes a fine antenna to transmit all the RFI to the whole block, and since we are not trying to run a radio station, thats a bad thing. could even be a health risk. I wouldnt be surprised if it screws with the plants too, as they are living things as well.
> Assuming the 5watt and higher radio transmitter is enough to get attention by the government as having health risks? what about the row of 1kw dig ballasts, most of us are running 12+ hours a day. The likely hood of any sort of "sheilding" is very low. I wonder if anyone knows how the RFI output from a 1kw eballast is like when compared to an FM/VHF/UHF radio transmitter.
> @ttystikk maybe you might know more about this?
> I heard of one guy who kept geting his cable internet cut off cause they were getting interference from his address. apparently a switch back to his old mag ballasts remedied the problem. It sounds like we should all be using low frequency square wave instead. The tech has been around for a while it seems like... just cheaper I guess, and the promise of slightly less power draw, and "digitalness" was enough to convince most people.
> ...


You clearly know more about the subject than I do. 

DE is just a lamp. In all other respects it's a completely conventional high frequency digital ballast. 

This problem will resolve itself because the next generation of drivers will be running DC current.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 20, 2015)

for an experienced grower what is the best gram per watt achieved with hps? ive heard of people pulling 2 gpw but have never seen this in person.. the best ive seen in the big grow op up here were tjhey are running a gymnasium size room with 1,000 watt hps they say they get 1.7 gpw consistently, however im talking regular people on say a 4ft x8ft table,,best gpw?? 
as for the cmh, i was happy with my first run, and i could have done better.. 2 315's over a 4x6 table worked well getting 400 grams per 315watt, that said this run using 3 315's over the same area ill get more weight but feel i wouldve been better with a larger area say 3 over a 4x8 table. , i think running 945watts over the 4x6 table is not getting the most out of these lamps,,just squeezing them in..with time and experience i believe 1.7-2 gpw is achievable with the cmh..


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## Carolina Dream'n (Dec 20, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> for an experienced grower what is the best gram per watt achieved with hps? ive heard of people pulling 2 gpw but have never seen this in person.. the best ive seen in the big grow op up here were tjhey are running a gymnasium size room with 1,000 watt hps they say they get 1.7 gpw consistently, however im talking regular people on say a 4ft x8ft table,,best gpw??
> as for the cmh, i was happy with my first run, and i could have done better.. 2 315's over a 4x6 table worked well getting 400 grams per 315watt, that said this run using 3 315's over the same area ill get more weight but feel i wouldve been better with a larger area say 3 over a 4x8 table. , i think running 945watts over the 4x6 table is not getting the most out of these lamps,,just squeezing them in..with time and experience i believe 1.7-2 gpw is achievable with the cmh..


The best I've ever done with hps is 1.3 gpw with 1000w DE. Took me years to get to that. First run with 315s was 1.2 gram per watts. Damn near felt like I had to relearn my plants, they acted completely different under the 315s. 

I'm coming closer and closer to the conclusion that these are in fact more effective gpw than an hps.


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## febisfebi (Dec 21, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> You clearly know more about the subject than I do.
> 
> DE is just a lamp. In all other respects it's a completely conventional high frequency digital ballast.
> 
> This problem will resolve itself because the next generation of drivers will be running DC current.


thatll be something, for sure. Eliminating AC from the picture. Assuming LED doesnt take over entirely before then. since LED driver is already DC, but that would require the right products being available at the right time. for a fair price, and we are far from there yet. right now, of the thousands of led's avaible, the COB is the first I have heard anything good about. I understand the draw to LED, I would love to have half the power draw, but I am waiting for the next round of tech to come around, now that there is something decent on the market. I might be willing to experiment with the diy COB, but for now, after spending a lot of time researching it, i'v decided against CMH, in favor of DE bulbs, and focal point reflectors, on existing drivers. which seems to make the most sense at this point in time. its actually going to cost the same per light as cmh. 
There is something to be learned from all this, and I think everyone can agree that we cannot depend on horticultural companies to tell us the truth, because the truth is not their friend. Its up to us to educate ourselves, which is not easy, and very time consuming, assuming your not an electrical engineer, which most of us are not, myself included. We need to follow what the commercial lighting manufacturers are doing. When you consider most of the only inovative new products in HID horti lighting, came from Philips, and copied by others. I am mainly talking about double end, but the latest Agro Elite 315 looks promising, and even the older cmh were very innovative for their time, but has been argued to death whether there is anything to be gained at all from anything other than HPS. It is obviously difficult for us as a group to agree on anything when we are getting 100 different sources of misinformation telling us how to spend our next fortune on their cheap tech. 

There are so many more HID lamps out there than people realize. They light factories, showrooms, musuems, and even street lights, and they are all switching to full spectrum lighting, simply because of the quality of light percieved by humans is best when closely matched to sunlight. 
My latest reserach project after beating the CMH topic to a pulp, and every other philips product of consequence. I stumbled across another commercial lighting manufacturer called Venture, and they have some very interesting tech indeed. Again, I am not trying to advocate any type of lighting, only to share information. There is a new breed of FS MH's apparently, now that are advertising the same life as LEDs, and a spectrum that is almost completely flat all the way from UV to IR(minus the UV shield), looks more like a plasma or something than a MH. 40khrs from a single bulb on a matched electronic square wave ballast up to 400w. I dont even know what to say to that.. 40k hours is something I will have to see for myself, and 26k hrs on one of their matched mag ballasts and maybe 20k on retrofit pulse start ballast, all at 90% lumen maintenance over their life. And they make them up to 975w on mag ballast, with the same spectrum. last time I checked they are only about $50 for a 575w ballasts are around $100 but require some assembly...lol. they do have enclosed ballasts, and enclosures for their kits, but i'm sure thats a lot more costly. Thats just one of their products, they have a lot more I havent even had time to look at, including PAR LED's. Its too bad they refuse to get directly involved with Agri business, because I think they could very well have a lot to offer us in ballast tech if nothing else. They have a huge international commercial market to attend to so they made a child company they call sunmaster, so after some technical discussions with Venture's MFR reps I was refferred to sunmaster. who is apparently made by Venture lighting, and offers a simliar spectrum on a 6k bulb instead of the 5k bulb from venture. But the real difference is that it can run on any eballast or pulse start MH mag. Which may seem like a good thing, limits you to 5k hrs and twice the cost per bulb, because of our crappy ballasts we cannot get the same life out of a seemingly similar bulb. I would rather pay half the price for bulbs and spend the rest on ballast tech that equals 26khrs-40k hrs. keep in mind the spectral output may degrade over time, but venture apparently is the supplier for some 80% of gases used in full spectrum bulbs made by other companies, so it sounds like they know what they are doing. we would need a spectroradiometer and some serious time to know for sure.

So it looks like even streetlights(you know the ones that look real white) are running better quality light than we are, which is pretty sad if you ask me, we definitely do not have the best tech available, and we should be looking elsewhere. This is why I have been researching commercial lighting. It has been said before that CMH is old news. CMH was the first step anybody has taken out of the horti market for lighting, which is likely the reason people argue this topic to death on a daily basis.

We are so stuck in our ways, we have changed the genetics of the plant to favor HPS further skewing our data, for any other kind of lighting. Since everything is crossed with everything these days, we will probably never get rid of those traits entirely even when everyone is running full spec led's or hid's whatever tech leads this market.

We really should move the discussion to a new "lighting tech" thread since the discussion has become about more than just CMH. So we can all share the newest tech on the market. really we should have a whole organized section for lighting tech where we can discuss each tech in detail.

The attached spectral chart is for the sunmaster 6k bulb. I'm gonna try one and maybe get some use out of my cheap eballast while were at it, and we will see how the spectrum performs, and then maybe invest in venture bulbs and drivers.
to view the venture spectrum (very sexy) look to page 9
http://www.venturelighting.com/On-LineCatalog/Venture_Lighting_Interactive_Catalog_v1.pdf


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## MrStickyScissors (Dec 21, 2015)

My friend runs this led i think he called it a black dog or a black something. Anyway he swears he gets better yields than hps. Personally i would never run anything oth than a hps for flower


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## ttystikk (Dec 21, 2015)

MrStickyScissors said:


> My friend runs this led i think he called it a black dog or a black something. Anyway he swears he gets better yields than hps. Personally i would never run anything oth than a hps for flower


Commercial warehouses in Colorado ate switching away from HPS in droves. Many are installing 315W CMH lighting. That itself should tell you everything you need to know about HPS.


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## ttystikk (Dec 21, 2015)

@febisfebi too long! People gonna get lost in posts like that, lol

Anyway, the reason I said the next generation of ballasts will be running DC current is precisely because they'll be driving COB LED chips!

HID tech is over for all planning purposes. COB LED is on its way and it's a better light in damn near every way. It's just a matter of time before it's cheaper up front as well as less expensive to operate. 

I waited out the blurple LED era, too. Those units did us early adopters a favor by scaring off the uninformed and holding back the tide of manufacturers. 

The guys here have done excellent work testing chips for efficiency and spectrum, discovering just how beneficial current droop is for our purposes and coming up with ready to use configurations for the relatively uninitiated such as myself. 

I'm using a Venture MH in my finishing zone right now. Decent lights, but they are the low cost producer. Sunmaster HPS sucks, lol. You want a top quality budget HPS, get Plantmax thouies. 

I know I missed something... try not to bury your points quite so deep? And pass that joint, cuz that shit's gooooooood! Lol


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## Dr. Who (Dec 21, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> @febisfebi too long! People gonna get lost in posts like that, lol
> 
> Anyway, the reason I said the next generation of ballasts will be running DC current is precisely because they'll be driving COB LED chips!
> 
> ...


Oh I read the whole thing ! Interesting.......Looking carefully at the whole thing.


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## GroErr (Dec 21, 2015)

Carolina Dream'n said:


> Damn near felt like I had to relearn my plants, they acted completely different under the 315s.


I remember posting something to this effect when I first switched to these 315's. It takes a couple of grows to get used to them, the plants react differently, not a bad thing but definitely different. They mature faster and set buds quick, in turn they get very thirsty/hungry in that transition period which takes some adjustment in watering/feeding them.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 21, 2015)

GroErr said:


> I remember posting something to this effect when I first switched to these 315's. It takes a couple of grows to get used to them, the plants react differently, not a bad thing but definitely different. They mature faster and set buds quick, in turn they get very thirsty/hungry in that transition period which takes some adjustment in watering/feeding them.


after spending years growing with mh hps, it is a big change but a good one, i also hit 1.2 gpw first run w cmh..my big problem is getting the height i used to get, even adding a week of veg i still have shorter plants under cmh. i like having a bed of 3ft plants and since the switch im getting 2 ft tall plants.. the nodes are closer,buds are more frosty, and very little leaf but it could be strain related as ive only grown 2 strains with cmh so far and my gum is indica dominant..i know throwing in a nice sativa would get me the height im after. but i have to stick w the same strain till the end of my next run for testing purposes..i just put a few new strains in paper towels, ak48,misty, and avalon.. the big bomb is 5 weeks into flower and will probably replace the bubble gum after the run under hps..it has bigger buds,a nice smell,very frosty and it is only getting indirect light in a 5 gal dwc bucket on the side of the table..my lamps are inline over the center of the 4x6 table and then i have 5 buckets on the left side of the table and those plants are growing well so the cmh is actually covering a 6x6 area with the buckets only getting indirect over lap lighting.


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## GroErr (Dec 21, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> after spending years growing with mh hps, it is a big change but a good one, i also hit 1.2 gpw first run w cmh..my big problem is getting the height i used to get, even adding a week of veg i still have shorter plants under cmh. i like having a bed of 3ft plants and since the switch im getting 2 ft tall plants.. the nodes are closer,buds are more frosty, and very little leaf but it could be strain related as ive only grown 2 strains with cmh so far and my gum is indica dominant..i know throwing in a nice sativa would get me the height im after. but i have to stick w the same strain till the end of my next run for testing purposes..i just put a few new strains in paper towels, ak48,misty, and avalon.. the big bomb is 5 weeks into flower and will probably replace the bubble gum after the run under hps..it has bigger buds,a nice smell,very frosty and it is only getting indirect light in a 5 gal dwc bucket on the side of the table..my lamps are inline over the center of the 4x6 table and then i have 5 buckets on the left side of the table and those plants are growing well so the cmh is actually covering a 6x6 area with the buckets only getting indirect over lap lighting.


Yeah you're test wouldn't be valid if you change up the strains. I don't have any reference to that as I was running LED to LED in veg/flower, then switched to CMH for flower so they stretched a lot more than LED-to-LED. The light spread is quite good, I noticed those plants off to the side of your table were doing just fine. I'm running a small 2gal in the corner, away from direct light but there's enough with 2 of them in the room and reflection that it's doing fine, it's just a test pheno from seed of some Fire OG so I don't really care how much I get from it as long as it smells/tastes good


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 21, 2015)

the plants in the buckets on the side are not included in final yields.. my test is on the 30plants on the table, but you can see they are doing just fine and if i did include the yield off them it would bring my gpw up quite a bit.. i have 30 bubble gum rooted and in veg under the mh lamp now.. the table has 8 days left i need to get pix up..but im all set to switch the lamp to 1 1,000watt hps and start the test run.. ill get everything trimmed and dry then post dry weight and pix, i just changed the rez to flush, .. have u noticed plants finishing sooner under the cmh? my gum usually always takes the full 8 weeks but they have looked like they could be pulled at 7 weeks, but im giving them a week of flush as i had clones and everything timed for an 8 week run..


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## febisfebi (Dec 22, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> @febisfebi too long! People gonna get lost in posts like that, lol
> 
> Anyway, the reason I said the next generation of ballasts will be running DC current is precisely because they'll be driving COB LED chips!
> 
> ...


Whoah, lol. I think I even got lost myself, in that one. Definitely some gooood! I would love to pass that shit, man but rarely have anyone to pass it to, and before I know, its gone. and so am I. must have been on a good one last night  
Im sure I lost many people, but it sounds like at least person read it! damn phones and tablets and such got us so used to trying to say things in a few words, cause it takes so long, i lose my train of thought, its really frustrating actually, lol
when I find myself in front of a keyboard, my fingers start typing faster than I can even think. so usually a quick edit/chop down is what I usually try and do, so just in case someone actually reads it, they might be able to follow. 
Seem to have forgotten about that part., I apologize to anyone who had to roll their mouse wheel a few extra times, or flick your tablet/phone in frustration!

That is exciting to finally hear about some good led's. can you really mount them way high like hid lights and achieve overlap?
Thats probably true. Im sure they will try to make DC HID drivers before long, but itll be a last ditch before HID is phased out. We would need a supply of efficient inexpensive DC power supplies capable of supplying that kind of current. That is the bottleneck in that great idea. Probably will be way to expensive to be practical, before COB LED;s will take over completely, since they take half the draw of HID. Its all gonna become about DC power supplies, good led chips, and Optics, to spread those motherfuckers. It would be cool to have an LED lighting package type thing where you could mount tons of little pods all over your cieling, all overlapping. that would be a product worthy of some hard earned cash. Really it shouldnt be that much more expensive than making one giant panel, to make a bunch of tiny ones. they wouldnt even need their own power supplies neccesarily, although that may very well be the cheaper more efficient option.

How do you like your venture MH? are you driving it with anything cool? How does the spectrum perform? I assume your using the natural white lamp? was this maybe the replacement for the 860 CDM? lol
The natural white(with the wide SPD) seems like it could compete with the 315 agro elite spectrum wise, and you can scale it easier without so many small lights.
I understand they are the cheaper producer, and we dont know how accurate their advertising is, but if they cam make lamps with that SPD that last 40k hours, they must be at least pretty decent, I would think. Since your using it for finishing, it will never get close to that much use, before HID has been long forgotten.
perhaps a good stepping stone to COB? then you could combine the two, as you add more COB. Do the COB excel more at supplemental lighting, or do they have some serious flower power without added hid lights?

I would never buy a sunmaster hps, or any SE HPS for that matter, I already have plenty of se hps bulbs anyways.
I am trying sunmaster for the 6k MH only, to use as a supplement light, due to the broad spectral output, much like that of the natural white, but slightly higher color temp. Normally I would wait til there was good information about something like this product, but I had the opportunity to try a 1kw for next to nothing, so we shall see how she performs 

Any new HPS will be DE philips with focal reflector, overlapped with FS, and overlapped with another DE, ushio maybe, but that is still up for debate.
i wanted to get your opinion that, actually. If your not currently using either of them, I wanted to get your opinion of the SPD of each.
I have been hearing that the ushio actually has the better spectrum, and by looking at it, thats the impression I got as well, before I had heard that. Most people I'v talked to swear by the Philips, and I would too 99% of the time, just because of my confidence in their products. But the Ushio looks to be worth considering at least. Its not a huge difference in spectrum. they both put out 2100umol and last 10k hrs, both are made in countries wtih good QC. but the ushio has quite a bit more in the 590nm or so range, which seems important being that it is so close to where the quantum efficiency for photosynthesis nears 1, which if I remember correctly is around 625nm I believe. 
I wonder. Did Philips leave this out because it wasnt neccesary for plant growth, or because the part just before the deepest valley is more important? or is it maybe a slight variation/ possible small improvement of performamce? 
I do see another difference upon closer examination. the philips has a thin, tall spike, right around 625nm. so maybe I answered my own question. That might make all the difference in the world right there. 
I wanted to get your opinion still though, because I trust you know what your talking about.

Im sure i'm reading into this way too much, I know the Ushio is cheaper, but I am not interested in saving $20 per bulb if one is better than the other. At the same time I dont want to pay $20 extra per bulb if the cheaper ones actually turn out to be better. I just want the better bulb. the combination if that is better.
Thanks, hope this isnt too buried, lol.
puff puff pass


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 22, 2015)

if your still using hps, save money and buy plantmax bulbs...ive talked to several big grow ops, and everyone i spoke with advised me to buy the plantmax, they swich bulbs every 6 months, and yield the same as they would using $100.00 bulbs and changing them every10-12 months..same yields and save money.. or switch to cmh, 1 bulb that lasts 20,000 hours,, im all over it..no bulb changes for me in the near future..
if you can build led, go there, but im not inclined to build so untill the led's are lower priced and perfected, im happy with the cmh lamps..


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## febisfebi (Dec 22, 2015)

@TheChemist123, and @ttystikk I did not realize plantmax made DE bulbs. 
they say 20k hrs, and the spectrum looks comparable, to Philips and Ushio, for about half the price, twice the life. Very interesting. Thanks for the info.
so then the question becomes then, which of these three bulbs is going to be the best for our purposes? or which combination?
I dont see the PPF listed for the plantmax, but I am guessing it is comparable? The lumens listed seem higher, but that doesnt equal PPF.
Thanks you guys, I appreciate it.


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## BOBBY_G (Dec 22, 2015)

Trippyness said:


> I am also looking into CMH.
> 
> I am currently set on nanolux DE fixtures but I see some promise in CMH with efficiency, Heat.
> I just see the footprint is quite small.
> ...



would penetrate the same as any other point source light (mh,hps,etc) at the same intensity and distance

physics be physics, those rules dont bend


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## BOBBY_G (Dec 22, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> if your still using hps, save money and buy plantmax bulbs...ive talked to several big grow ops, and everyone i spoke with advised me to buy the plantmax, they swich bulbs every 6 months, and yield the same as they would using $100.00 bulbs and changing them every10-12 months..same yields and save money.. or switch to cmh, 1 bulb that lasts 20,000 hours,, im all over it..no bulb changes for me in the near future..
> if you can build led, go there, but im not inclined to build so untill the led's are lower priced and perfected, im happy with the cmh lamps..



they are perfected. already better than any other tech and getting better. price is... well... it is what it is. you could build youself a simple COB setup for $1-2/watt, or buy one for $2.50/W

(no affiliation... there are other options as well)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/225-Watt-Cree-3590-Meanwell-Led-Grow-Light-/181963341668?hash=item2a5ddc3f64:g:CV4AAOSwZ1lWcO0r

monochromatic LED (the purple ones) are already better than HPS. the full spectrum CREE COBs are better than both...


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## swagslayer420 (Dec 22, 2015)

Ive used the Ushio De pro 2100umol in sun system AC/DE 8" with galaxy grow amp ballast and have had Great results..
I also got 7 area51 w90's 3000k going in a 4x4 doesn't have the penetrating light of DE 2100umol is where it is at it makes for big colas and frosty resin coated nugs, also I began switching to a solis tek mh 10k DE bulb with there 2.0 ballast for last 2 weeks of flower and notice faster finishing and more resin production.


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## ttystikk (Dec 22, 2015)

swagslayer420 said:


> Ive used the Ushio De pro 2100umol in sun system AC/DE 8" with galaxy grow amp ballast and have had Great results..
> I also got 7 area51 w90's 3000k going in a 4x4 doesn't have the penetrating light of DE 2100umol is where it is at it makes for big colas and frosty resin coated nugs, also I began switching to a solis tek mh 10k DE bulb with there 2.0 ballast for last 2 weeks of flower and notice faster finishing and more resin production.


Let's hear about your cooling system now.


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## swagslayer420 (Dec 22, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Let's hear about your cooling system now.


10k btu window ac/dehum, 6in intake split and 2 6' scrubbers and one 6' for DE exhausted out the room. temps stay 75-86 lights on and 62-65 lights off RH stays 30-44% on and 48-55% off


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## febisfebi (Dec 22, 2015)

swagslayer420 said:


> 10k btu window ac/dehum, 6in intake split and 2 6' scrubbers and one 6' for DE exhausted out the room. temps stay 75-86 lights on and 62-65 lights off RH stays 30-44% on and 48-55% off


thats way to cool for the DE bulb's to perform properly. like @ttystikk said earlier, the DE bulbs need to get really hot before they reach max output. you might be getting better than regular hps, but your bulb is likely running at less that 80% efficiency. The sun system DE cooled reflector is a flawed design. They should have never made it, because it will make your lamp not work right. If you have all that cooling, to begin with, why on earth would you need a cooled hood?

@ttystikk Are you speaking mainly about the SE plantmax? I am curious about their DE bulb. the spectrum looks nice, I think between philips, and ushio, I like the philips, because of the 625nm sweet spot, but the plantmax seems to have this covered at around 80% power, which looks like it covers that sweet spot at least as good as philips, if not better. I have to wonder what the PPF output is, I dont see it published anywhere, which makes me suspicious, about that, and their other claims. like do they really last 20k hours? wouldnt the spectral output degrade long before that in a HF ballast?
I must admit I am surprised to hear all you guys suggesting a cheap hydrofarm brand. Do they finally have something worthwhile?
thanks


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## ttystikk (Dec 22, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> thats way to cool for the DE bulb's to perform properly. like @ttystikk said earlier, the DE bulbs need to get really hot before they reach max output. you might be getting better than regular hps, but your bulb is likely running at less that 80% efficiency. The sun system DE cooled reflector is a flawed design. They should have never made it, because it will make your lamp not work right. If you have all that cooling, to begin with, why on earth would you need a cooled hood?
> 
> @ttystikk Are you speaking mainly about the SE plantmax? I am curious about their DE bulb. the spectrum looks nice, I think between philips, and ushio, I like the philips, because of the 625nm sweet spot, but the plantmax seems to have this covered at around 80% power, which looks like it covers that sweet spot at least as good as philips, if not better. I have to wonder what the PPF output is, I dont see it published anywhere, which makes me suspicious, about that, and their other claims. like do they really last 20k hours? wouldnt the spectral output degrade long before that in a HF ballast?
> I must admit I am surprised to hear all you guys suggesting a cheap hydrofarm brand. Do they finally have something worthwhile?
> thanks


I was indeed referring to their SE HPS lamps. I don't know from DE because I don't run any. 

Can't comment on the hood, I haven't seen it. 

Yes, most HPS lamps will physically last and continue to operate for an average (fifty percent failure rate) lifetime of 24,000 hours. Just because the damned thing will still strike an arc does not mean much; both efficiency and spectrum efficacy deteriorate beginning with the very first time it's struck. Six months on most SE HPS bulbs is as much as they're really good for and they should be changed. 

DE lamps are advertised to go three years without significant lumen depreciation, but that's a suspicious statistic for an agricultural lamp; lumens ain't PAR, and all the lighting companies know this very well. Since I don't own any I cannot say, but I wonder what the SPECTRAL depreciation curve looks like?


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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I was indeed referring to their SE HPS lamps. I don't know from DE because I don't run any.
> 
> Can't comment on the hood, I haven't seen it.
> 
> ...


I agree, that is a very suspicious statement. Like you said they only mention lumen depreciation which means nothing for us. I have never heard of anyone doing this kind of testing, I have only seen one guy post atual generated spectral graphs for many bulbs and combinations, which was very educational, with a $2000 meter. But that was several years ago, on an old forum. I doubt we will get that lucky again. I guess we could get an idea if someone has a cheap-er PAR meter. 

Could I get your opinion, solely based on your knowledge of SPD, and plant respponse. do you think it would be worthwhile to mix two of these different DE bulbs, in overlap, to help even out the spectrum?
I'm considering, Ushio, and now maybe plantmax as a second to my existing greenpower, but only if there is something to be gained.
I'm really not worried about price, they are not much different. other than that the plantmax is so cheap, I fear for its quality, but its also so cheap it might be worth trying anyways, if there is even a chance it might add something beneficial to plant growth,, or is 2 identical Philips GP's overlapping each other and FS MH. important.
I am already supplementing with FS MH, so the lack of any signicant blue output on any of these should be well covered.

Same goes for Ushio, so if you would be so kind as to take a quick look, and let me know what you think, I'd appreciate it very much.
I was unable to find an accurate spectral chart for the philips 1000 GP, so I took a picture of my box, to ensure we are both looking at the same one. along with the others, so you dont have to look them up.


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## ttystikk (Dec 23, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> I agree, that is a very suspicious statement. Like you said they only mention lumen depreciation which means nothing for us. I have never heard of anyone doing this kind of testing, I have only seen one guy post atual generated spectral graphs for many bulbs and combinations, which was very educational, with a $2000 meter. But that was several years ago, on an old forum. I doubt we will get that lucky again. I guess we could get an idea if someone has a cheap-er PAR meter.
> 
> Could I get your opinion, solely based on your knowledge of SPD, and plant respponse. do you think it would be worthwhile to mix two of these different DE bulbs, in overlap, to help even out the spectrum?
> I'm considering, Ushio, and now maybe plantmax as a second to my existing greenpower, but only if there is something to be gained.
> ...


I do not think it will make a significant difference.


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## genuity (Dec 23, 2015)

I run 4 of these in my room,no ac..just fresh air..room gets no hotter than 85.

Some of the info in this thread is way off...

I do wish he would have tested the par with the ballast on full blast.
He has other vids,for the lec also.


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## genuity (Dec 23, 2015)

This is the lec vid,not the same dude..





They did a good job


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## swagslayer420 (Dec 23, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> thats way to cool for the DE bulb's to perform properly. like @ttystikk said earlier, the DE bulbs need to get really hot before they reach max output. you might be getting better than regular hps, but your bulb is likely running at less that 80% efficiency. The sun system DE cooled reflector is a flawed design. They should have never made it, because it will make your lamp not work right. If you have all that cooling, to begin with, why on earth would you need a cooled hood?..
> 
> 
> febisbebi,
> ...


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## ttystikk (Dec 23, 2015)

I see how the hood works now. It's still under glass, taxing both intensity and spectrum. 

Having looked over the list of lighting you have, I'd say it's a great collection of lighting- nearly all of which is soon to be made obsolete by COB LED!


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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

@swagslayer420 I still dont know why anyone would want to use anything but an open reflector. those cooled reflectors may be made in the USA and have nice build quality, but they are also expensive, and have some serious design flaws. besides not having the advantage of being placed in the focal point, you have glass in front, and are wasting moneyand power on fans, speed controllers, and other expensive gear including the ~$300 reflector that is only hurting your performance. you have more than enough cooling to run them open, you say you want to run it closer to the plants? why is that? you are just going to over saturate the plant right below it, and the others will not have proper coverage. these lights are meant to be mounted real high, and cover 21 square feet each. they are able to do this at 1000umol/square meter, which is where you will see the best performance.

@genuity that video does not prove anything. I have found other reviews that show way higher numbers with the cooled reflector. This is because they are testing it at 36" in a small footprint, so the numbers mean nothing. of course your going to get higher numbers the closer you go to the light with your meter. But to your garden you are going to end up focusing a beam meant to cover 21square feet, in a small area, so the plant right underneath will be over saturated, and the rest will be sitting outside the focused beam. This is going to hurt all your plants, not just the ones witout proper light coverage, but also the one directly underneath will get fried, not from heat, with the coooled reflector, but from too much light in one small area. 
Dont believe everything you read or hear. even with expensive testing equipment, the tests are meaningless when the lamps are used in configurations other than they were designed for.



ttystikk said:


> I do not think it will make a significant difference.


Okay, thank you. I was looking real hard for some kind of comparison, and trying everywhere I could think of to find out a rough idea of the PPFD of the plantmax DE. The best I could come up with though was a hydrofarm (I believe) sponsored "test" that supposedly was comparing 8 or so DE bulbs/configurations available, and guess what they show as coming out on top. The 8" cooled ac/de reflector, supposedly has highest PAR output which I dont believe for a second. They also show gavita/philips, almost as low as plantmax, being about half the PAR output, of hydrofarm products. This entire study is obviously total bullshit, and I dont know why they are knocking their own product, but they obviously just want to sell the most expensive bulb/driver period, without losing cutomers to gavita/philips once they realize they will be spending a fortune regardless, if they want "quality" DE tech. I was trying to find the study again, so you all could see how ridiculous the information they are trying to push is getting, but I cant seem to pull it up again, and im not going to waste any more time looking for it, just to spread misinformation, lol. I'm still not convinced the plantmax DE is crap, and could potentially be the last $60 I need to buy for this setup, as opposed to the $125 philips, which could mean more money for my next project, which will be COB.


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## bird mcbride (Dec 23, 2015)

A ceramic metal halide or CDM runs at about 3100K. A simple halogen $2 bulb runs at 3000K.

The only reason I can "think" of in using this spectrum to "supplement" (MV)MH or HPS is to get much larger cola nubs.

I can testify that a straight HPS grow cannot compete with certain combinations of lighting.

Someday I will try the stand alone 3100K for myself


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## genuity (Dec 23, 2015)

Way more than 21sq, you don't know how they work,unless you use them...


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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I see how the hood works now. It's still under glass, taxing both intensity and spectrum.
> 
> Having looked over the list of lighting you have, I'd say it's a great collection of lighting- nearly all of which is soon to be made obsolete by COB LED!



I have been looking more and more into the CXB3590. The spectrum is absolutely fantastic, and looks like it will blow anything else available out of the water, for both veg and flower, and thats not even considering the 56% power draw. I think I am convinced. But I dont have the money for a commercial COB, so if I were to go that route, I would be waiting a while for prices to come waty down. All my equipment comes from mostly my pocketbook, which is very limited, and some donations, in order to supply enough high CBD medicine to some very sick patients, So quality and yeild is important, but we are not making massive profit like most people here, and cant afford to spend thousands upon thousands, on yet another new lighting setup. 
I want to start putting together single diy led pods to eventually cover the whole ceiling, spread out to achieve overlap, on my next setup. But in the mean time, I want to start adding them one by one to my current setup as I can afford the parts, and have the time to put them together. Building them one at a time should make them pretty cheap each, and I can scale up as I can afford, eventually ending up with better coverage than a panel that would require putting it all together at once.

@ttystikk are you building your own COB setup to phase out your HID lamps with? or investing in comercial COB as you can afford it?

I have found a few people building DIY COB setups, but they all seem to be building one big panel. I dont expect to have any trouble converting the designs to single led pods, the circuitry is simple enough, so it should really just be about parts.

Can you point me in the right direction where I can get the 3590's, drivers, and heat sinks at the somewhat competitive prices you were mentioning earlier from a reputable supplier? I have found a few sources, but it sounds like you have already done your homework.
How powerful/efficent/expensive of a DC power supply do we need? I am not planning on using separate power supplies for each pod, unless there is some reason to do so. 

For optics, do you know where we can get a good quality, fairly priced supply of those domed focal point reflectors? Or would you suggest a different type of optic to spread the beam in the manner I am talking about to acheive overlap, with each LED.


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## ttystikk (Dec 23, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> I have been looking more and more into the CXB3590. The spectrum is absolutely fantastic, and looks like it will blow anything else available out of the water, for both veg and flower, and thats not even considering the 56% power draw. I think I am convinced. But I dont have the money for a commercial COB, so if I were to go that route, I would be waiting a while for prices to come waty down. All my equipment comes from mostly my pocketbook, which is very limited, and some donations, in order to supply enough high CBD medicine to some very sick patients, So quality and yeild is important, but we are not making massive profit like most people here, and cant afford to spend thousands upon thousands, on yet another new lighting setup.
> I want to start putting together single diy led pods to eventually cover the whole ceiling, spread out to achieve overlap, on my next setup. But in the mean time, I want to start adding them one by one to my current setup as I can afford the parts, and have the time to put them together. Building them one at a time should make them pretty cheap each, and I can scale up as I can afford, eventually ending up with better coverage than a panel that would require putting it all together at once.
> 
> @ttystikk are you building your own COB setup to phase out your HID lamps with? or investing in comercial COB as you can afford it?
> ...


Talk to @Stephenj37826 about single COB fixtures. That plan has legs if you're on a budget. 

I'm having my panels custom made to save cost. I'll be replacing every damned light bulb I have except the one in the bathroom! ...and maybe a T5 over the clones.


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## verticalgrow (Dec 23, 2015)

@febisfebi clickthe link below to find ttystikk LES cob custom made #689

https://www.rollitup.org/t/ttystikks-vertical-goodness.787572/page-35


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## genuity (Dec 23, 2015)




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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

genuity said:


> View attachment 3570608
> Way more than 21sq, you don't know how they work,unless you use them...


I understand where you are coming from, but that reflector is not designed for the 21' sq footprint. it is designed to be 36" from the tops, and because of this it focuses the beam mostly straight down, which is why they are boasting better numbers than others setups. But in reality, that might give it a 10 or so square foot coverage. 
I'm not trying to knock your setup, i'm sure you spent plenty of time and work setting it up, and you are obviously seeing gains over SE HPS, which is not surprising. You are right, I dont know exactly how well it works without trying it, I can only guess based on the information available about this product. I have studied this product for almost as long as the CMH, and in this case I'm not really intersted in finding out for myself, exactly how well it performs, because the design is not only inferior, it goes directly against how the lamp is meant to be used. Plus the price is outrageous, and any time you use glass, you are losing performance, period. 
The fan cooling that hood, should be bringing in more fresh air, which actually gives you better cooling than cooled hoods, I have tested this. I have used cooled hoods, and since I took the fans off those, and set them up to move more air in and out of the room. running only bare bulbs, my temps are lower than ever. Plus you get more fresh air, which means more CO2, and more plant growth.
Again, you have more than enough cooling to use open focal point reflectors, and regardless if the cooled hood allows the bulb to burn at proper heat, you still have glass in front, which blocks light, degrades spectrum, and blocks out most of the UV this bulb has. On top of that, the $300 cooled hood, $100+ fan, speed contoller/ducting/reducers, etc, etc, you could have easily bought a second light, and then you would have proper coverage at 1000umol/meter squared of uniform light, since you are obviously covering more than 21 sq ft, which is the max this lamp is rated for, and only when used in the manner it was designed for, in an open focal point reflector, which is more efficient than any other reflector available, and there are several reasons for this. One is, that it traps the heat around the bulb, due to its small size, keeping the operating temp at optimum, so the ballast doesnt have to try and compensate, overdriving the bulb to get proper temp. As far as light spreading eficiency it can't be beat. It works in the same way as the new Andasol I, II, and III solar power stations in Spain, but in the inverse. These power plants are simply made up of a long mirror trough, which is essentially an upside down focal point reflector, with a long boiler tube at the focal point, instead of a DE bulb. Think magnifying glass buring ants... same concept. There is more desert on this planet than anything besides ocean, so anyone who thinks solar power is inferior to fossil fuels/nuclear energy, needs to do some research.
These solar plants produce around the same output as a single reactor nuclear plant, which is why I brought it up to explain the superiority of focal point reflectors. They are very different from any other type of reflector. Dont let the small size fool you, it is to your advantage, and spreads light far more efficiently than that huge heavy awkward expensive cooled hood, or any other reflector hood, which does a lot more shading, than reflecting.


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## Sativied (Dec 23, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> These solar plants produce around the same output as a single reactor nuclear plant, which is why I brought it up to explain the superiority of focal point reflectors


Please note title of the thread...

Not brought, but made up. There's really no logic at all in the comparisson, seems more like female intuition lol. The towers are not the andasol power stations, which use parabolic throughs, the towers are PS10 and one or two others. All solar power plants in Spain combined are better compared to some nuclair plants but the towers you use as an argument for how great the reflectors are, generate only a fraction of the power of a nuclair plant. 11MW opposed to the roughly 500MW the smallest nuclair power generator in the US... Or the 400w per plant in NL. Which can run 24hrs a day at that capacity. The largest in the US generates 800x as much power as that fancy subsidized tower in Spain.

Obviously harvesting the power of the sun in those deserts isn't nearly as simple as you claim. 

For the record, the reflectors are great, and I actually agree with much of your post. But the arguments you use to "prove" that are just a pile of BS.


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## genuity (Dec 23, 2015)

2 hoods 2 ballast(Galaxy grow amps) 2 ushio de bulbs = $1000 for me right out the shop..

With a regular base hps & cool hood...sucks ass.but still works

With these DE cool hoods/bulb the loss is not that bad.





I'm definitely going to test the glass off canopy temps


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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

@ttystikk, and @verticalgrow 
Thanks guys, thats a good start. I certainly have some homework of my own to do, but any good examples, out there, like the ones posted, will help speed the process along.



ttystikk said:


> Talk to @Stephenj37826 about single COB fixtures. That plan has legs if you're on a budget.
> 
> I'm having my panels custom made to save cost. I'll be replacing every damned light bulb I have except the one in the bathroom! ...and maybe a T5 over the clones.


Thank you, I will contact him. THhe plan is starting to sound better and better the more I look into it  Thanks for the idea.
What kind of optics is your guy building into your lights? domed focal reflectors?, domed glass magnifiers?, or are they just surface mounted?
Will your lights be just 3500k 3590's or are you mixing others in there too?

Looking at the PDF, it doesnt look like any of tho 3590's have much in the UV vicinity, maybe UVA, but 
Do they make a COB that outputs UVB? or are we still stuck with reptile flourescent/incandescants lamps, and/or other mfr's led's for that?
If so, Philips has a new model "TL-20" t12 flourescent lamp I am considering for this, that puts out all UVB, for about $50 per 40w tube, that I wanted to get your opinion on. check out the spectrum, on each of the links below. they make a broadband, and narrowband, both directly focused in the true UVB band of 280-315, nm instead of the reptile bulbs which are max 10% uvb, and 30% uva, and the rest, who knows.

http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/lamps/special-lamps/medical-lamps/medical-therapy-uvb-broad-band/uvb-broadband-tl/928010001201_EU/product

http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/special-lighting/medical-lamps/medical-therapy-uvb-narrow-band/uv-b-narrowband-tl/928010000101_EU/product

The problem is, like any reptile UVB lamp they are only good for 600 hours, which I believe is even less than reptile bulbs, reptile bulbs are supposed to be good for 6 months max, but I'm not sure what type of light cycle reptiles need, but I would assume they dont like 24hrs of light, because thats just not natural.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 23, 2015)

at boulderlamp, the new 315 watt cdl's available in feb.2016 will or can include led lighting added to the reflectors. it will increase the coverage and add uv spectrum.. i will be buying the led add on kit for 1 or 2 of my cmh lamps as soon as they are available.. they have been testing different leds they say by feb it should be available... i dont know much about led but i do know the addition of led to the cmh should be really nice..please look it up and tell me what you think at www.boulderlamp.com


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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Please note title of the thread...
> 
> Not brought, but made up. There's really no logic at all in the comparisson, seems more like female intuition lol. The towers are not the andasol power stations, which use parabolic throughs, the towers are PS10 and one or two others. All solar power plants in Spain combined are better compared to some nuclair plants but the towers you use as an argument for how great the reflectors are, generate only a fraction of the power of a nuclair plant. 11MW opposed to the roughly 500MW the smallest nuclair power generator in the US... Or the 400w per plant in NL. Which can run 24hrs a day at that capacity. The largest in the US generates 800x as much power as that fancy subsidized tower in Spain.
> 
> ...


I apologize, I never claimed to be an expert on the Andasol plants. I only brought it up to explain how the focal point reflectors work, and why they are diffferent than others. 
You are absolutely right, the andasol plants produce 50mw each. They must only use one turbine on each plant, as the turbine spec's on the andasol plants are 49.9 mw each. they should really scale it up.
My information on that specifically, came from a quick search of "andasol output vs nuclear"
The numbers I was looking at, upon closer examination, were actually for the the Ivanpah solar plant, in the mohave desert, which had an original planned output of 440mw (which was later scaled back to 392mw to preserve the habitat of desert turtles in the area. which I was comparing to a single fission reactor plant.
sorry for the confusion, I am 100% self taught with everything I know and do, so please feel free to correct me if I have misread something or stumbled across misinformation. I dont always have time to read the entire hundred page spec sheet, in detail on such things, especially when they are so far off topic. But I do not make shit up, I want to be clear about that.
Now lets get back on topic. lol


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## Sativied (Dec 23, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> i dont know much about led but i do know the addition of led to the cmh should be really nice..please look it up and tell me what you think at www.boulderlamp.com


I think that is another good addition to the available options for lighting, one I've been considering for a while. Run the cmh for veg (on 4x4') and switch on the leds during flower. Still get the temps I want without additional climate control, more control over spectrum. Mixing mh or cmh with hps uniformly is not doable with just a couple of bulbs, while hid combined with led allows for more control (those leds ideally cover the 4x4 uniformly as well as the cmh, so they overlap entirely, instead of having cmh in the center and growing under led along the edges).


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## genuity (Dec 23, 2015)

That's exactly what I want,that drone type LED rig,that fits right on most any air cooled hood..... @Greengenes707 im ready to click buy on something like this,if it was to ever pop up.


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## Greengenes707 (Dec 23, 2015)

genuity said:


> That's exactly what I want,that drone type LED rig,that fits right on most any air cooled hood..... @Greengenes707 im ready to click buy on something like this,if it was to ever pop up.


I won't be making it, but I have been asked recently about the concepts. To me it's over kill and/or a waste with big sodiums. 
It may have a place with a 315 LEC and then a COB pontoon setup to get you to ~700w over an area. Maybe even high CRI pontoons. 

For me cobs give the horse power, and great quality. But if trying to squeeze more out of them...toss some UVB on them.

You want something like this(uvb saddle) but with cobs...


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## swagslayer420 (Dec 23, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> @swagslayer420 I still dont know why anyone would want to use anything but an open reflector. those cooled reflectors may be made in the USA and have nice build quality, but they are also expensive, and have some serious design flaws. besides not having the advantage of being placed in the focal point, you have glass in front, and are wasting moneyand power on fans, speed controllers, and other expensive gear including the ~$300 reflector that is only hurting your performance. you have more than enough cooling to run them open, you say you want to run it closer to the plants? why is that? you are just going to over saturate the plant right below it, and the others will not have proper coverage. these lights are meant to be mounted real high, and cover 21 square feet each. they are able to do this at 1000umol/square meter, which is where you will see the best performance.
> 
> @genuity that video does not prove anything. I have found other reviews that show way higher numbers with the cooled reflector. This is because they are testing it at 36" in a small footprint, so the numbers mean nothing. of course your going to get higher numbers the closer you go to the light with your meter. But to your garden you are going to end up focusing a beam meant to cover 21square feet, in a small area, so the plant right underneath will be over saturated, and the rest will be sitting outside the focused beam. This is going to hurt all your plants, not just the ones witout proper light coverage, but also the one directly underneath will get fried, not from heat, with the coooled reflector, but from too much light in one small area.
> Dont believe everything you read or hear. even with expensive testing equipment, the tests are meaningless when the lamps are used in configurations other than they were designed for.
> ...


to each there own, I am happy with my set-up didn't buy it to please you and seen it first hand over multiple runs its performance beats out most lighting on the market today I never said I want to get it close I keep it 30-36 inchs off the canopy.


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## swagslayer420 (Dec 23, 2015)

Greengenes707 said:


> I won't be making it, but I have been asked recently about the concepts. To me it's over kill and/or a waste with big sodiums.
> It may have a place with a 315 LEC and then a COB pontoon setup to get you to ~700w over an area. Maybe even high CRI pontoons.
> 
> For me cobs give the horse power, and great quality. But if trying to squeeze more out of them...toss some UVB on them.
> ...


that uvb saddle is sick when can you manufacture a rig for 315 LEC set-up that would be a hot seller on PLC!


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## swagslayer420 (Dec 23, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I see how the hood works now. It's still under glass, taxing both intensity and spectrum.
> 
> Having looked over the list of lighting you have, I'd say it's a great collection of lighting- nearly all of which is soon to be made obsolete by COB LED!


I am testing 7 area 51 w90's 3000k right now and don't see this beating a DE anytime soon in yield only thing its beating is less heat output but power cost 6 cents a Killawatt... I am impress with induction lighting thus far


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## swagslayer420 (Dec 23, 2015)

genuity said:


> View attachment 3570608
> Way more than 21sq, you don't know how they work,unless you use them...


Thank you!!!!! @genuity..... people love to troll on here and don't own and test gear, how he keep typing and I am looking at led cobs in gorilla tent and DE in the other and see whats going on for my own eyes and the comparison of each plant, DE Produces the biggest nugs i've ever seen.


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## bird mcbride (Dec 23, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Please note title of the thread...
> 
> Not brought, but made up. There's really no logic at all in the comparisson, seems more like female intuition lol. The towers are not the andasol power stations, which use parabolic throughs, the towers are PS10 and one or two others. All solar power plants in Spain combined are better compared to some nuclair plants but the towers you use as an argument for how great the reflectors are, generate only a fraction of the power of a nuclair plant. 11MW opposed to the roughly 500MW the smallest nuclair power generator in the US... Or the 400w per plant in NL. Which can run 24hrs a day at that capacity. The largest in the US generates 800x as much power as that fancy subsidized tower in Spain.
> 
> ...


I suggested using a big ass magnifying glass and a boiler to help power the International space station


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## ttystikk (Dec 23, 2015)

swagslayer420 said:


> Thank you!!!!! @genuity..... people love to troll on here and don't own and test gear, how he keep typing and I am looking at led cobs in gorilla tent and DE in the other and see whats going on for my own eyes and the comparison of each plant, DE Produces the biggest nugs i've ever seen.


My 860CDM lamps have made both the biggest nugs and the biggest yielding plant I've ever grown, but I'm not harboring many doubts about the ability of my COB LED modules to best their performance.

My reasoning is dead simple; instead of attempting to match the performance of my current lighting setup and taking the savings in electrical efficiency, I opted instead to hold power consumption (relatively) constant and take the entire performance improvement in additional PPfD.

In addition to drastically improved irradiance, the light will be very well distributed across the canopy. By contrast, my thread is thirty-five pages of various shenanigans all designed to improve light distribution on my canopy using HID lighting, with decidedly mixed success.

There will not be a marked improvement in spectrum between my 860CDM and the new CXB3590, but there would be if I were switching from HPS.


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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

bird mcbride said:


> I suggested using a big ass magnifying glass and a boiler to help power the International space station


certainly better than solar panels...couple parabolic mirrors, though in all reality. perhhaps not even attached. they could be orbiting near by, and act as refuel stations


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## febisfebi (Dec 23, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> My 860CDM lamps have made both the biggest nugs and the biggest yielding plant I've ever grown, but I'm not harboring many doubts about the ability of my COB LED modules to best their performance.
> 
> My reasoning is dead simple; instead of attempting to match the performance of my current lighting setup and taking the savings in electrical efficiency, I opted instead to hold power consumption (relatively) constant and take the entire performance improvement in additional PPfD.
> 
> ...


do you think the 860's flower well enough to compete with DE?


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 23, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I think that is another good addition to the available options for lighting, one I've been considering for a while. Run the cmh for veg (on 4x4') and switch on the leds during flower. Still get the temps I want without additional climate control, more control over spectrum. Mixing mh or cmh with hps uniformly is not doable with just a couple of bulbs, while hid combined with led allows for more control (those leds ideally cover the 4x4 uniformly as well as the cmh, so they overlap entirely, instead of having cmh in the center and growing under led along the edges).


hey sativied, i switched over as u know from runnoing 2 600 watt hps to 2 315's and now 3 315 cmh lamps in the same area.. my hps's wer in cool tubes w/ 6 inch duct pulling the heat out, the 315's are all open hoods so im getting better light as there is no glass between the bulb and my canopy..but anyways my point was about heat,,,the 3 315's w/ open hoods produce less heat than 1 600 watt hps.. i still have an intake and exaughst but since the lamp switch i no longer use the one 6 inch exaughst hole and duct that was used to pull the heat from the cool tubes out.. my next run that begins jan 1st ill be running 1 1,000watt hps in a cool tube and ill be using that exaughst once again...but after that run(its purely a test comparing 945 watts cmh vs 1k watts hps over same area,same clones,temps etc..)ill be going back to cmh and ill no longer need it again...so anyways the 315's are much cooler than hps so if someone has heat problems cmh may be a good option...


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## ttystikk (Dec 23, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> do you think the 860's flower well enough to compete with DE?


No, for lots of reasons- the 860 designation being only the first. 

Also, higher Kelvin (bluer) light sources tend not to produce as much PPfD per watt than redder ones, it's all about the energy per photon at different wavelengths and the number of photons emitted. 

Finally, the ballast in a DE setup is a far superior piece of equipment than the magnetic ballast driving the 860CDM. 

I'm growing tasty flowers but I'm definitely not saving any power doing it.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 23, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> No, for lots of reasons- the 860 designation being only the first.
> 
> Also, higher Kelvin (bluer) light sources tend not to produce as much PPfD per watt than redder ones, it's all about the energy per photon at different wavelengths and the number of photons emitted.
> 
> ...


hey ty, i know your all about cob lighting, however have you considered switching to a couple 315 watt cmh to replace the 860? you said it yourself the 315's are more efficient


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## ttystikk (Dec 23, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> hey ty, i know your all about cob lighting, however have you considered switching to a couple 315 watt cmh to replace the 860? you said it yourself the 315's are more efficient


I did say that and it's true. I was going to go that way, even bought a dozen 315W CMH kits to do it with... and then I realized that I was going to need so many lamps I wouldn't be able to fit them all inside my rack! Worse, even if I could I'd be running so many so close together that I'd be wasting too much light on adjacent light bulbs.

COB LED is the answer to my dilemma, and it solves so many more problems besides that one that I just couldn't pass them up.

Those kits are just sitting around, gathering dust.


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## a mongo frog (Dec 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I did say that and it's true. I was going to go that way, even bought a dozen 315W CMH kits to do it with... and then I realized that I was going to need so many lamps I wouldn't be able to fit them all inside my rack! Worse, even if I could I'd be running so many so close together that I'd be wasting too much light on adjacent light bulbs.
> 
> COB LED is the answer to my dilemma, and it solves so many more problems besides that one that I just couldn't pass them up.
> 
> Those kits are just sitting around, gathering dust.


What does one exactly do with the kits? Mount them in a reflector?


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## ttystikk (Dec 24, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> What does one exactly do with the kits? Mount them in a reflector?


Yes! Since these are mogul socket bulbs, you have a wide variety of reflectors to choose from, or just run them bare like I originally planned.


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## a mongo frog (Dec 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Yes! Since these are mogul socket bulbs, you have a wide variety of reflectors to choose from, or just run them bare like I originally planned.


Do those kits come with a ballast?


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## ttystikk (Dec 24, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> Do those kits come with a ballast?


One each of Mogul socket lamp and Philips ballast equals one kit.


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## a mongo frog (Dec 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> One each of Mogul socket lamp and Philips ballast equals one kit.


Without the bulb correct?


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## ttystikk (Dec 24, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> Without the bulb correct?


Lamp = bulb, at least in my copy of Webster's.


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## a mongo frog (Dec 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Lamp = bulb, at least in my copy of Webster's.


And these are roughly 200 bucks or?


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## ttystikk (Dec 24, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> And these are roughly 200 bucks or?


I can't offer to sell them on the forum, pm me if you'd like my contact information for more details.


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## a mongo frog (Dec 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I can't offer to sell them on the forum, pm me if you'd like my contact information for more details.


I wasn't saying that. Just looking for info on them. Is this what we are talking about?


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## ttystikk (Dec 24, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> I wasn't saying that. Just looking for info on them. Is this what we are talking about?


The kit itself is just the Philips ballast and 315W CMH lamp with mogul socket base. BYO socket or fixture. 

The kit you're referring to is not the Philips ballast, and uses a conversion base to allow the twin pin base to screw into reflectors. My lamps don't need one.


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## febisfebi (Dec 24, 2015)

Greengenes707 said:


> I won't be making it, but I have been asked recently about the concepts. To me it's over kill and/or a waste with big sodiums.
> It may have a place with a 315 LEC and then a COB pontoon setup to get you to ~700w over an area. Maybe even high CRI pontoons.
> 
> For me cobs give the horse power, and great quality. But if trying to squeeze more out of them...toss some UVB on them.
> ...


That is my plan, but I am hoping to find an led solution that does not need to be replace every 600 hours


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## febisfebi (Dec 24, 2015)

swagslayer420 said:


> Thank you!!!!! @genuity..... people love to troll on here and don't own and test gear, how he keep typing and I am looking at led cobs in gorilla tent and DE in the other and see whats going on for my own eyes and the comparison of each plant, DE Produces the biggest nugs i've ever seen.


I am not trolling, in order to talk shit to anyone. I have not personally owned the ac/de cooled hood, but I do use DE tech, and I spent just as much time researching all the available setups before deciding on something, and wanted to share what I found out. I have seen them in stores, I have talked to experts in detail about them, and everyone who has any experience or knowledge about DE tech has warned me severely against using any type of cooled hoood for DE. DE is for commercial greehhouses/warehouses, where you have lots of ceiling height. Personally I have height just enough to make it practical. I actually had many people discourage its use for small scale ops, but they didnt assume i had a few more feet of height than most.
@genuity I beleive you when you say you are using that hood it as sun system suggests, at 36" but that should tell you right there, that your not going to get even coverage over 21 sq ft, which btw only the gavita reflector, and other focal's are rated for. 
Since its at 36" you will never get this kind of spread, and since the reflector is designed for that height, it focuses the beam straight down, which like I said is why they are boasting higher par numbers than open hoods.
I dont want to argue about it, I am only trying to help you get the most from your lights, honestly. Personally I could care less if anyone wants to use a cooled hood, with de lights. thats on them.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I did say that and it's true. I was going to go that way, even bought a dozen 315W CMH kits to do it with... and then I realized that I was going to need so many lamps I wouldn't be able to fit them all inside my rack! Worse, even if I could I'd be running so many so close together that I'd be wasting too much light on adjacent light bulbs.
> 
> COB LED is the answer to my dilemma, and it solves so many more problems besides that one that I just couldn't pass them up.
> 
> Those kits are just sitting around, gathering dust.


damn that sucks, lots of money wasted huh? your plan was to hang them vertically with no reflector i take it..a dozen,,, damn,, you could run a huge area with that many.. my thoughts are the more cmh you run the better the efficiency..12 315's would be perfect over 4 4ftx8ft tables and i bet would blow any hps run away. . cant you use them at your work place? or has the work place all cob light testing? i thought you had said you worked at a gro op or somthing to that nature...im sure youll find some people to buy them as it seems more and more people are realizing the cmh potential..grow well n be well, good luck..


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## febisfebi (Dec 24, 2015)

bird mcbride said:


> A ceramic metal halide or CDM runs at about 3100K. A simple halogen $2 bulb runs at 3000K.
> 
> The only reason I can "think" of in using this spectrum to "supplement" (MV)MH or HPS is to get much larger cola nubs.
> 
> ...


If you look at the spectral chart for the 3100k CDM's they are a flowering bulb, and a lot more like a new high tech SE HPS that runs lower heat and more efficient. Mostly a huge spike in the yellow/red flowering vicininy like HPS, as well as one in the green, and they have some SPD throughout the spectrum, but it is at maybe 10% or less through most of the lower blue end of the spectrum, slightly more in the super low blue/uva. If you want the SPD that the CDM's are known for and best for, you want the 4200k CDM's they are the ones with full spectral distribution everyone is talking about.


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## ttystikk (Dec 24, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> damn that sucks, lots of money wasted huh? your plan was to hang them vertically with no reflector i take it..a dozen,,, damn,, you could run a huge area with that many.. my thoughts are the more cmh you run the better the efficiency..12 315's would be perfect over 4 4ftx8ft tables and i bet would blow any hps run away. . cant you use them at your work place? or has the work place all cob light testing? i thought you had said you worked at a gro op or somthing to that nature...im sure youll find some people to buy them as it seems more and more people are realizing the cmh potential..grow well n be well, good luck..


Not wasted, they'll do someone a lot of good, I'm sure.


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## febisfebi (Dec 25, 2015)

*Attention: @genuity and any other Double End Users.
If any of you have used a DE Lamp for long enough to see wear, I need to hear from you ASAP!*

I need to know if there Is this a way to tell how much life is left in a DE bulb by looking at it, if your not sure of the hours?
Do the DE arc tubes start to turn grey and then black at each end, as they age, like single end hps lamps do? 

I have an opportunity to buy a DE Ushio bulb for next to nothing, because the place that is selling it has no way of knowing whether its new, lightly used, or what, as it was a trade in, 

This particular bulb has a totally white arc tube. Looks pristine! I would venture to say that it could be brand new. 
I really cant see any difference between the arc tube on this bulb, and my brand new Philips GreenPower.

I am wondering whether a DE bulb can still look this way after some use, or even extended, due to the long lamp life, and new improved bulb/ballast tech.

I posted this in a thread as well, but i figured I would ask here as well cause we have some double end users reading this thread, and I need to make a decision by 11am in the morning, when I will most likely be snagging it before someone else does.
I would rather not purchase it without knowing, and I know most people are busy with holidays, but any hint of info on the subject would be very much appreciated!
Thanks, and Merry Christmas you guys!


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## Carolina Dream'n (Dec 25, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> *Attention: @genuity and any other Double End Users.
> If any of you have used a DE Lamp for long enough to see wear, I need to hear from you ASAP!*
> 
> I need to know if there Is this a way to tell how much life is left in a DE bulb by looking at it, if your not sure of the hours?
> ...


Don't buy used bulbs. It's that simple.


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## ttystikk (Dec 25, 2015)

Carolina Dream'n said:


> Don't buy used bulbs. It's that simple.


I Second this. There's just no way to know, and you should keep in mind that you get a warranty with your new bulb purchase should anything be wrong with it.


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## febisfebi (Dec 26, 2015)

First off I need to simplify my question. All I need to know is after one or several cycles, does a DE bulb (philips or ushio) show any signs of wear, such as the greying of the arc tube ends like you would see in single end bulbs?

@Carolina Dream'n
@ttystikk 
Thanks guys, I appreciate the replys. especially on Christmas day. I appreciate your opinions, and I totally agree with you both for those exact reasons. You never know what your using. The SPD could be degraded past the point of usefulness, it could be damaged, overdriven, etc, etc. Especially on a DE setup since your trying to take advantage of more efficient tech. This case might be possible exception I might be willing to make, because I need my lights both up and running, and can probably do so for $30, at a time when I really would rather spend my money on a 3 COB led setup, to be expanded on later. For that, I'm willing to take a small risk in exchange for cob since this DE bulb looks so brand new. 
If I am told by other DE users that greying of the arc tube is not a known phenomenon and the arc tubes stay pearly white til the day you toss them, than I will likely reconsider whether I want to risk drawing those watts if that bulb could be worn down. But that seems very unlikely that there would be no visible signs of wear after 5 to 10k hrs use. Especially considering the temperature DEs burn at in order to reach peak efficiency. 

This bulb can be had new locally for $90+tax, which is a fair price, but I'd still probably go for the philips.
Since we grow mostly medicine (CBD) plants for very sick people, without that cash crop most everyone has, it is difficult to finance these kinds of expensive setups.
Right now, I would really like to have a new toy/project to work on, and the project part is a big deal for me.
Thanks again, I hope everyone had a good Christmas this year! 
Happy Holidays everyone!


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## Carolina Dream'n (Dec 26, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> First off I need to simplify my question. All I need to know is after one or several cycles, does a DE bulb (philips or ushio) show any signs of wear, such as the greying of the arc tube ends like you would see in single end bulbs?
> 
> @Carolina Dream'n
> @ttystikk
> ...


I replace my DE bulbs every other harvest. Just like a standard bulb I can see the spectrum shift and get less intense light after a few months.


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## genuity (Dec 26, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> *Attention: @genuity and any other Double End Users.
> If any of you have used a DE Lamp for long enough to see wear, I need to hear from you ASAP!*
> 
> I need to know if there Is this a way to tell how much life is left in a DE bulb by looking at it, if your not sure of the hours?
> ...


I would think it would start to go gray/black when old...

Have not had my setup more than a yr,and all bulbs still look good,they still max out the foot candle meter...at 20"-24"


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## febisfebi (Dec 26, 2015)

Carolina Dream'n said:


> I replace my DE bulbs every other harvest. Just like a standard bulb I can see the spectrum shift and get less intense light after a few months.


What sort of meter do you use to see the spectrum shift, or does this data come from plant behavior? Do the arc tubes show wear(greyting ends) at this point, or does that not come later after 6,12 or more months? They are supposed to be good for 10k hrs which could be porentially lot more than every other harvest, where you might see your first drop in performance despite that they can keep running 6 months, or over a year, and still going strong.  
We all know there is a performance curve that slopes down, rather than getting better with time, unlike the Low Freq. Square Wave tech. @genuity you said, you would think that it would start show great/black when old. How do your arc tubes currently look, after 1yr plus of use,as far as greying? You say they all still look good. Does this mean the arc tubes still dont show yet any greying yet even at that age? I mean you must be able to at least tell the difference between the year old ones and a brand new one, right?

Thank you everyone, I really appreciate all the info! I may have to reconsider, if there is negligible signs of wear even after a year. 
I have to run to the store for some 10" hose clamps anyways, so i'll see just how good of a deal, I can get. (knowing of course that I should replace that bulb as soon as I have an extra $125 lying around to get max performance) Like I said, if they want $50 or more for it, ill just buy new! Only if its going to bring my DE upgrade project to a close, without depleting my wallet any further than it already has, will I spring for this as cheap easy solution to a costly problem/proposition, and would make my plants happy. Believe me, the bulb thats curently running in place of the 2nd DE has a lot more wear than this one, and it could potentially give me some breathing room after all the recent purchases, to replenish funds, and still have an operational second light.


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## Carolina Dream'n (Dec 26, 2015)

febisfebi said:


> What sort of meter do you use to see the spectrum shift, or does this data come from plant behavior? Do the arc tubes show wear(greyting ends) at this point, or does that not come later after 6,12 or more months? They are supposed to be good for 10k hrs which could be porentially lot more than every other harvest, where you might see your first drop in performance despite that they can keep running 6 months, or over a year, and still going strong.
> We all know there is a performance curve that slopes down, rather than getting better with time, unlike the Low Freq. Square Wave tech. @genuity you said, you would think that it would start show great/black when old. How do your arc tubes currently look, after 1yr plus of use,as far as greying? You say they all still look good. Does this mean the arc tubes still dont show yet any greying yet even at that age? I mean you must be able to at least tell the difference between the year old ones and a brand new one, right?
> 
> Thank you everyone, I really appreciate all the info! I may have to reconsider, if there is negligible signs of wear even after a year.
> I have to run to the store for some 10" hose clamps anyways, so i'll see just how good of a deal, I can get. (knowing of course that I should replace that bulb as soon as I have an extra $125 lying around to get max performance) Like I said, if they want $50 or more for it, ill just buy new! Only if its going to bring my DE upgrade project to a close, without depleting my wallet any further than it already has, will I spring for this as cheap easy solution to a costly problem/proposition, and would make my plants happy. Believe me, the bulb thats curently running in place of the 2nd DE has a lot more wear than this one, and it could potentially give me some breathing room after all the recent purchases, to replenish funds, and still have an operational second light.


I first noticed it when I had all the doors open to to all 4 flower rooms at once. The spectrum was different coming from each room. All the same bulbs. Only difference was age.


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## febisfebi (Dec 26, 2015)

Carolina Dream'n said:


> I first noticed it when I had all the doors open to to all 4 flower rooms at once. The spectrum was different coming from each room. All the same bulbs. Only difference was age.


 okay cooll. I will compare it the color to a new 1, in the store. thanks!


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## Frazer (Jan 11, 2016)

Sire Killem All said:


> @Merlin34 is doing a nice thread on here. He got 450 of the CMH going in one room. @Frazer


Do you have a link?


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## elkamino (Jan 11, 2016)

Frazer said:


> Do you have a link?


https://www.rollitup.org/t/50000-square-feet-colorado-legal-rec-grow.883667/


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## Frazer (Jan 11, 2016)

elkamino said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/t/50000-square-feet-colorado-legal-rec-grow.883667/


Thank you! That's a great thread. Just read the whole thing


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 11, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> If you look at the spectral chart for the 3100k CDM's they are a flowering bulb, and a lot more like a new high tech SE HPS that runs lower heat and more efficient. Mostly a huge spike in the yellow/red flowering vicininy like HPS, as well as one in the green, and they have some SPD throughout the spectrum, but it is at maybe 10% or less through most of the lower blue end of the spectrum, slightly more in the super low blue/uva. If you want the SPD that the CDM's are known for and best for, you want the 4200k CDM's they are the ones with full spectral distribution everyone is talking about.


the phillips 315 cmh 3100k is an agro bulb, the 4200k is not. i was told by boulder lamp that the agro makes the difference and they said testing proved the 3100k agro was better for both veg and bloom..i have not tested this myself, so i dont know if its true. id like to see someone here on riu do a test w/ the 3100k agro and the 4200k cmh bulbs to see the difference in veg and bloom...


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## GroErr (Jan 11, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> the phillips 315 cmh 3100k is an agro bulb, the 4200k is not. i was told by boulder lamp that the agro makes the difference and they said testing proved the 3100k agro was better for both veg and bloom..i have not tested this myself, so i dont know if its true. id like to see someone here on riu do a test w/ the 3100k agro and the 4200k cmh bulbs to see the difference in veg and bloom...


Boulder seems to have a hard on for the 3100k bulb (likely have a few thousand in stock?) and is feeding you crap. The 4200k is an Elite Agro, _here's the latest spec sheet_, part numbers w/colour temps are on page 3. Funny because when I spoke to advacedtech they kept telling me to go with the 4200k because they had "tested" it and the results were better than the 3100k. I don't personally listen to anyone who has an interest in selling me their inventory. idk which one is better or if there'd be any significant difference, but I don't like vendors who put out misinformation.


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## Merlin34 (Jan 11, 2016)

I'm going to be running a section of the 3100k bulbs in my warehouse. I'll know the answer in a couple months. So far the 4200s I use are producing good results, but I'm nearing the first harvest, so we'll see about weight...

Colorado


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## elkamino (Jan 11, 2016)

genuity said:


> I would think it would start to go gray/black when old...
> 
> Have not had my setup more than a yr,and all bulbs still look good,they *still max out the foot candle meter...at 20"-24*"


@genuity Can you explain what you mean by "max out the foot candle meter" here?

Thank you.


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## elkamino (Jan 11, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> I'm going to be running a section of the 3100k bulbs in my warehouse. I'll know the answer in a couple months. So far the 4200s I use are producing good results, but I'm nearing the first harvest, so we'll see about weight...
> 
> Colorado


Seriously STOKED to see these results. Thanks in advance for the documented comparison. 

Will we see the results in your 50000 thread?


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## MistaRasta (Jan 12, 2016)

Just took my 330 cdm down as its too bright to work around and has too much uv bare bulb.. 

These things are ridiculously bright and put off a good amount of crie.. Can't wait to see what the mixed spectrum in flower does

Is there any difference between the 330 cdm all start and the 315w master color spectrum-wise? I know the 330 runs on 4000k which is fine. I'm also aware that they're a little more innefficient than their digital counterparts but everything looks good in veg..couldn't see it getting much better


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 12, 2016)

GroErr said:


> Boulder seems to have a hard on for the 3100k bulb (likely have a few thousand in stock?) and is feeding you crap. The 4200k is an Elite Agro, _here's the latest spec sheet_, part numbers w/colour temps are on page 3. Funny because when I spoke to advacedtech they kept telling me to go with the 4200k because they had "tested" it and the results were better than the 3100k. I don't personally listen to anyone who has an interest in selling me their inventory. idk which one is better or if there'd be any significant difference, but I don't like vendors who put out misinformation.


as none of US have tested the bulbs,, my OPINION would be to use the 4200k for veg and the 3100k for flower.. i may be wrong but would you agree with that?




Merlin34 said:


> I'm going to be running a section of the 3100k bulbs in my warehouse. I'll know the answer in a couple months. So far the 4200s I use are producing good results, but I'm nearing the first harvest, so we'll see about weight...
> 
> Colorado


are you using both bulbs in veg and bloom or just the bloom stage? im very happy using the 3100k agro, i thought about using the 4200k in my veg room, but as of now im still running a 400 watt 6400k mh in veg then flower w/ the 315 cmh as im hoping tthe big difference in kelvins will get more stretch out of my plants...cant wait to see the results comparing these bulbs..thank you, and please keep me informed on the conclusions...


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## febisfebi (Jan 12, 2016)

It really depends on what you want to use it for. If your looking to replace HPS for flower, the 3100k is a good option. 
The 4200k would be more a veg bulb, or a HPS Supplement light for flower. The 3100k would not make a good HPS supplement. it has nearly the same color temp as HPS. just a much higher CRI, (wider SPD)
When I say Supplement, I am thinking of a replacement for the HPS/MH combo that people like so much. We all know that 20% blue is beneficial in flower. If all I were using were CMH lamps, I would not want to use 4200k for flower. If I am using the CMH to make up my 20% blue, I would want the bulb that is more focused in that range. 
For a dealer to say "this is the one you want" without knowing exactly how it is to be used, is irrespnsible/misinformation.


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## Merlin34 (Jan 12, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Seriously STOKED to see these results. Thanks in advance for the documented comparison.
> 
> Will we see the results in your 50000 thread?


Yea, I'll put them in there. It'll be a couple months before I start.

Colorado


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## GroErr (Jan 12, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> as none of US have tested the bulbs,, my OPINION would be to use the 4200k for veg and the 3100k for flower.. i may be wrong but would you agree with that?
> ...


Yeah I'd go that way if I were doing it until I'd had a chance to test them myself. I just ordered some replacement bulbs and kicking myself in the ass I should have bought a 4200k to try it $#%!


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## febisfebi (Jan 12, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> Yea, I'll put them in there. It'll be a couple months before I start.
> 
> Colorado


I am very curious to see how the 3100k does as an hps replacement. your operation looks amazing. Does Colorado give you the tax break for investing in CMH?


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## Merlin34 (Jan 12, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> I am very curious to see how the 3100k does as an hps replacement. your operation looks amazing. Does Colorado give you the tax break for investing in CMH?


Yes, we receive a bit of money back from the utility company for firing up 315s instead of 1000s

Colorado


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## febisfebi (Jan 12, 2016)

@Merlin34 
Right on! Glad to hear it! I have been reading through your thread a bit, looks like you are having some fun! I am very jealous. Something that caught my eye though, You mentioned 60% power savings over HPS. That would be incredible, but how do you figure? From what I understand, that would mean even more power savings than COB LED? Which I think a few people here might argue with. 
Lets all argue away. How efficient are these really? have we come up with any hard data yet on the subject? @Merlin34 should have the best data for us shortly on whats possible, but no baseline hps grow in the same facility to compare to.


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## Merlin34 (Jan 12, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> @Merlin34
> Right on! Glad to hear it! I have been reading through your thread a bit, looks like you are having some fun! I am very jealous. Something that caught my eye though, You mentioned 60% power savings over HPS. That would be incredible, but how do you figure? From what I understand, that would mean even more power savings than COB LED? Which I think a few people here might argue with.
> Lets all argue away. How efficient are these really? have we come up with any hard data yet on the subject? @Merlin34 should have the best data for us shortly on whats possible, but no baseline hps grow in the same facility to compare to.


Eh, by 60% I'm talking amount of watts to light the same floor space. We'll see about the yields... If the yields are close then my thoughts are that I saved 685 watts per 16 square foot of floor space... 

Colorado


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## febisfebi (Jan 12, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> Eh, by 60% I'm talking amount of watts to light the same floor space. We'll see about the yields... If the yields are close then my thoughts are that I saved 685 watts per 16 square foot of floor space...
> 
> Colorado


so you dont think you would have used less overall lamps in the same space if they were 1000watters? I mean dont get me wrong that looks like a lot of lights! But wouldnt a 1kw lamp usually cover more than 16 square feet? especially in a warehouse/multiple overlap setup? It sound's like you've done this kind of setup before, so you probably know better than I.


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## Merlin34 (Jan 13, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> so you dont think you would have used less overall lamps in the same space if they were 1000watters? I mean dont get me wrong that looks like a lot of lights! But wouldnt a 1kw lamp usually cover more than 16 square feet? especially in a warehouse/multiple overlap setup? It sound's like you've done this kind of setup before, so you probably know better than I.


It's not a direct 1:1 swap, I was just using that as a comparison. Its probably really a 1.5 315 to 1 1000 swap. So I guess the numbers would equate to closer to a 50% savings in watts now that I think about it, IF yields are comparable. Honestly though, personally, I know what I need to yield per square foot of floor space to make money, that's all that really matters. And if I can do that with 315s all the better. The other HUGE key is the 6-9% increase in THC that were seeing at another grow we own that is doing head to heads with HPS vs the 315s. That 6-9% is across the board with all the strains we run. But it's a smaller grow, much smaller rooms, so not really a big warehouse head to head test. That 6-9% increases the crop value, so could and should compensate for a decrease in yield... So there's a lot of factors in play here when looking at performance, not necessarily grams produced only. On the legal wholesale and dispensary market THC levels dictate price. On the street they do not influence cost per gram as much.

Colorado


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## febisfebi (Jan 13, 2016)

I am looking forward to the quality increase as well from using supplemental HPS using full spectrum lighting. My overall spectrum should be similar to that of the 3100k's. Definitely should pay for themselves in power savings in the long run. They are just so much more efficient, and have more usable light than most, without wasting a lot of watts creating a lot of heat. Then you gotta figure how much less cooling you need compared with that of an HPS setup. 
In a large warehouse situation, do you have your outside air intake come out high up, or down low?
I am tryig to make mine most efficient, and so far it seems to keep temps lower if I bring it in down low, but there are other issues, with plants around right by the outlet dont like it too much cause its really cold, but im trying a few different things to diffuse it. Just wondering what you do on a large scale setup with tall ceiling. Proportionally my celing is pretty tall. 
Thanks, 
looks looks like your in for quite a harvest. Are you gonna be using trimming machines on all that?


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## borbor (Jan 20, 2016)

Hey everyone, I was looking around today and couldn't find an answer for this- Will the 210 bulb be fine on any square wave 315 watt ballast like this one?
http://growershouse.com/phantom-cmh-315w-ceramic-metal-halide-digital-ballast
How much would it pull from the wall?
@GroErr I'm guessing you might know?

I wanna put a 210 in my veg tent, to save a little power over a 315 while increasing the coverage and intensity over 2 area 51 rw75s


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## GroErr (Jan 20, 2016)

borbor said:


> Hey everyone, I was looking around today and couldn't find an answer for this- Will the 210 bulb be fine on any square wave 315 watt ballast like this one?
> http://growershouse.com/phantom-cmh-315w-ceramic-metal-halide-digital-ballast
> How much would it pull from the wall?
> @GroErr I'm guessing you might know?
> ...


Like what you're thinking there, good use of the 210w. Haven't measured the 210w, will do it but will need a day or two. I'd check with Phantom for yours though, the ballasts in the Sun Systems are different and do support the 210w bulb. Reason I suggest checking with them is the phantom 315w manual specifically calls out the following:
"Do not use lamps of any type other than the 315W (T12 38 mm PGZX18 base) with this ballast."


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## kcc420 (Feb 8, 2016)

I


Carolina Dream'n said:


> That is what I'm saying. Everyone I've talked to that has replaced 2 1000s for 3 315s were only pulling 1.25-1.5 lbs per 1000w.
> I've yet to see a grower pulling 2-2.5 lbs per 1000 changing to them at the same 2 1000s for 3 315s, they do 3 315s per 1000, and claim to be yielding 30 to 40% more with 3 315s than a 1000.


I pulled 2.5 lbs per 1k off my scrog setup.... u can see my grow journal. Total yield 5 lbs with two 1k lights, i wouldnt even call myself experienced so idk how its not possible. Thats only like 1.15 gpw which isnt insanely impressive. 1.5 gpw is impressive


Im switching to cmh for my larger grow because its ez to hit 1.5 gpw. We are gonna use 24 cmh fixtures to replace 8. 1000's in hps bulbs. Better light coverage than stretching the 1000s on 4x7 light patterns. Same wattage and power usage for better coverage


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## stickyickys (Apr 3, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> It's not a direct 1:1 swap, I was just using that as a comparison. Its probably really a 1.5 315 to 1 1000 swap. So I guess the numbers would equate to closer to a 50% savings in watts now that I think about it, IF yields are comparable. Honestly though, personally, I know what I need to yield per square foot of floor space to make money, that's all that really matters. And if I can do that with 315s all the better. The other HUGE key is the 6-9% increase in THC that were seeing at another grow we own that is doing head to heads with HPS vs the 315s. That 6-9% is across the board with all the strains we run. But it's a smaller grow, much smaller rooms, so not really a big warehouse head to head test. That 6-9% increases the crop value, so could and should compensate for a decrease in yield... So there's a lot of factors in play here when looking at performance, not necessarily grams produced only. On the legal wholesale and dispensary market THC levels dictate price. On the street they do not influence cost per gram as much.
> 
> Colorado


AMAZING!

Was that a head to head with DE HPS or standard 1000w (or 600s)?


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## Merlin34 (May 25, 2016)

stickyickys said:


> AMAZING!
> 
> Was that a head to head with DE HPS or standard 1000w (or 600s)?


That was a straight 1000. I'll have some better concrete yield numbers soon. Looks like we're pulling a pound a 315 now with room for improvement as we get this beast of a warehouse dialed in.

Mile High Colorado


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## TheChemist77 (May 26, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> That was a straight 1000. I'll have some better concrete yield numbers soon. Looks like we're pulling a pound a 315 now with room for improvement as we get this beast of a warehouse dialed in.
> 
> Mile High Colorado


my gpw has gone up with each run after switching to lec lamps last run i yielded 1.5 gpw this run should be even better.. i took down 1 315 so this run is 2 315's above 40 plants on a 4'x6' f&d table...hope to get 1.6 gpw or better...


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## febisfebi (May 27, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> That was a straight 1000. I'll have some better concrete yield numbers soon. Looks like we're pulling a pound a 315 now with room for improvement as we get this beast of a warehouse dialed in.
> 
> Mile High Colorado


Pretty impressive. Congrats on getting that beast up and running!!
What I am trying to discern, is if there are real advantages to running say 5 (fairly expensive) 315w lights, when compared to simulating the spectral output of CMH with for example 2 DE 1kw lamps paired with supplemental 1000 or 600w Ushio Opti-Blue or similar lamp to cover the rest of the spectrum and end up with something similar to 3100k CMH in terms of total spectral output in the room. This is where we need a side by side comparison. We all know that running full spectrum lighting is going to produce a better product, so comparing to straight HPS (while informative) is not really an apples to apples comparison. Since so few people seem to be supplementing their HPS its difficult to come up with the justification for investment in CMH to replace something like this, since they should be fairly similar quality of light. Given that, (which is not a given, but a speculation) I would further speculate that the 3kw of DE HPS/Opti-blue could potentially produce a similar GPW with similar THC% as the 1575w of 3100k CMH, covering the same area like you are doing. The real difference is cost. In my estimations, it would cost significantly more to get just over half as many watts.

CMH is supposed to be more efficient at converting electricity into usable plant light, so the question then is how much more efficient, and is it worth spending big $$ on. It may be that the savings would come more from decreased cooling costs, so we have to take that into consideration as well. We have to consider the total draw of the room, when doing a head to head comparison.

From what I understand, 1.5 gpw is attainable with plain DE HPS. when you throw the supplemental light in there, the actual GPW might be slightly less, since we are counting watts, and like @Merlin34 said the 6-9% thc level increase is what the supplemental light will be primarily doing for you. 

Hopefully someone out there has the time and resources to be able to do a real comparison like this.


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## Merlin34 (May 27, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> Pretty impressive. Congrats on getting that beast up and running!!
> What I am trying to discern, is if there are real advantages to running say 5 (fairly expensive) 315w lights, when compared to simulating the spectral output of CMH with for example 2 DE 1kw lamps paired with supplemental 1000 or 600w Ushio Opti-Blue or similar lamp to cover the rest of the spectrum and end up with something similar to 3100k CMH in terms of total spectral output in the room. This is where we need a side by side comparison. We all know that running full spectrum lighting is going to produce a better product, so comparing to straight HPS (while informative) is not really an apples to apples comparison. Since so few people seem to be supplementing their HPS its difficult to come up with the justification for investment in CMH to replace something like this, since they should be fairly similar quality of light. Given that, (which is not a given, but a speculation) I would further speculate that the 3kw of DE HPS/Opti-blue could potentially produce a similar GPW with similar THC% as the 1575w of 3100k CMH, covering the same area like you are doing. The real difference is cost. In my estimations, it would cost significantly more to get just over half as many watts.
> 
> CMH is supposed to be more efficient at converting electricity into usable plant light, so the question then is how much more efficient, and is it worth spending big $$ on. It may be that the savings would come more from decreased cooling costs, so we have to take that into consideration as well. We have to consider the total draw of the room, when doing a head to head comparison.
> ...


Another factor in cost that most folks forget is bulb replacement... 315s can be run years longer than HPS...

Mile High Colorado


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## febisfebi (May 27, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> Another factor in cost that most folks forget is bulb replacement... 315s can be run years longer than HPS...
> 
> Mile High Colorado


Very good point. Many folks think that the spectral output degrades at the same rate no matter who made the bulb, but I have an old HPS-Retro-White thats still going strong, made in 2011. not exactly sure how much use is on it, but im sure its significant. still outperforms any 400w mh I have ever seen, even comparable to a 600, just less coverage. Have you experienced any degradation in crop quality over the 20k hours CMH's are rated for, or have you ever used one even close to that long?


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## Merlin34 (May 27, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> Very good point. Many folks think that the spectral output degrades at the same rate no matter who made the bulb, but I have an old HPS-Retro-White thats still going strong, made in 2011. not exactly sure how much use is on it, but im sure its significant. still outperforms any 400w mh I have ever seen, even comparable to a 600, just less coverage. Have you experienced any degradation in crop quality over the 20k hours CMH's are rated for, or have you ever used one even close to that long?


I'm not close to 20k, I'll probably start with the switching / change out at 15k

Mile High Colorado


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## Merlin34 (May 27, 2016)

Horti Blues which I loved have a similar spectrum to the 4200K 315s.... the horti blue 600s even say on the box that they're good for 6-8 months...

Mile High Colorado


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## Tim Fox (May 27, 2016)

what i am noticing ,, is this, all the new led start ups may go out of buisness if it turns out the cmh 315 performs better?


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## firsttimeARE (May 27, 2016)

315w/942 (fresh out of box) day 20 same strain
 

vs.

600w Ushio HPS (3 cycles old) day 35 same strain
 

They run way cooler. The light is so much more crisp. Lights on photos don't look like garbage. The stretch is less IMO.

Im gonna switch out my HPS after this grow. Go with a 860w allstart in an OG vert


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## Tim Fox (May 27, 2016)

i have yet to see someone yeild over 1 gpw with a cmh?,, can it happen,, if not whats the hype?


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## firsttimeARE (May 27, 2016)

Not with this grow I won't do it. For a few factors. A.) I outgrew my scrog B.) cookie strains and crosses are notoriously terrible yielders. But it definitely has potential.

Im thinking you could pull over 1.5gpw with the right strains. Maybe 2gpw.

(4) 1.5ftx1.5ft screens with RDWC producing 4-6oz per thats 1.4gpw at the low end and 2gpw at the high end.

i've pulled 8oz off a 600w in a 2x2 screen regular DWC. thinking 4-6oz is definitely possible in a 1.5x1.5 screen.


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## 2easy (May 27, 2016)

Tim Fox said:


> i have yet to see someone yeild over 1 gpw with a cmh?,, can it happen,, if not whats the hype?


1 gram per watt is easily achievable with the 315w. probably more so than any other light i have used. however to reach a gram per watt with any light your going to have to master canopy control and space management. Gram per watt is a terrible guideline for how well a light works because there are so many other aspects that affect the end result mainly the grower being the number one set back.


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## 2easy (May 27, 2016)

there is a lb in this grow under a 315w with a low yielding very frosty potent strain. thats around 1.5 GPW


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## Merlin34 (May 28, 2016)

Tim Fox said:


> what i am noticing ,, is this, all the new led start ups may go out of buisness if it turns out the cmh 315 performs better?


Well a pound a 315 is a lot more than a gram a watt

Mile High Colorado


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## Tim Fox (May 28, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> Well a pound a 315 is a lot more than a gram a watt
> 
> Mile High Colorado


i never said anything about a pound,


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## Merlin34 (May 28, 2016)

Roll it up funk...


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## Merlin34 (May 28, 2016)

Ugh, roll it up is being weird. Deleted post.


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## Merlin34 (May 28, 2016)

Tim Fox said:


> i never said anything about a pound,


You said gram a watt...

Mile High Colorado


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## febisfebi (May 28, 2016)

we will have to see what gpw can be done with a DE + supplemental, vs all 3100k cmh. but you guys are using way less overall watts in a given space. it will be interesting to see if the extra power draw from the supplemental brings down the gpw of the DE significantly enough to make the all CMH option a better choice. Personally I think the light created by two different lights will almost always be a more complete spectrum than any one single kind of bulb, when we are talking about HID anyways, so there could be potential for a better product with the pair even if the gpw is less. I think the quality difference has a lot of it has to do with the deep blues and UVA that these types of setups include. I know glass blocks a lot of uvb and lets some uva thru, not a lot, but its important. Thats the one thing I want to see LED manufacturers come up with a solution for, and UVB too while they are at it. I know they are working on it.


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## firsttimeARE (May 28, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> Well a pound a 315 is a lot more than a gram a watt
> 
> Mile High Colorado


I think a lb is totally reasonable off a 315w with the right strains.

If I can find a plant worth keeping i'll try to shoot for that the next grow. First grows with plants are always tough to scrog right as you have no idea of the stretch it has.


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## Tim Fox (May 28, 2016)

Merlin34 said:


> You said gram a watt...
> 
> Mile High Colorado


That's very different


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## Tim Fox (May 28, 2016)

firsttimeARE said:


> I think a lb is totally reasonable off a 315w with the right strains.
> 
> If I can find a plant worth keeping i'll try to shoot for that the next grow. First grows with plants are always tough to scrog right as you have no idea of the stretch it has.


Gorilla glue 4 can do it


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## TheChemist77 (May 28, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> Pretty impressive. Congrats on getting that beast up and running!!
> What I am trying to discern, is if there are real advantages to running say 5 (fairly expensive) 315w lights, when compared to simulating the spectral output of CMH with for example 2 DE 1kw lamps paired with supplemental 1000 or 600w Ushio Opti-Blue or similar lamp to cover the rest of the spectrum and end up with something similar to 3100k CMH in terms of total spectral output in the room. This is where we need a side by side comparison. We all know that running full spectrum lighting is going to produce a better product, so comparing to straight HPS (while informative) is not really an apples to apples comparison. Since so few people seem to be supplementing their HPS its difficult to come up with the justification for investment in CMH to replace something like this, since they should be fairly similar quality of light. Given that, (which is not a given, but a speculation) I would further speculate that the 3kw of DE HPS/Opti-blue could potentially produce a similar GPW with similar THC% as the 1575w of 3100k CMH, covering the same area like you are doing. The real difference is cost. In my estimations, it would cost significantly more to get just over half as many watts.
> 
> CMH is supposed to be more efficient at converting electricity into usable plant light, so the question then is how much more efficient, and is it worth spending big $$ on. It may be that the savings would come more from decreased cooling costs, so we have to take that into consideration as well. We have to consider the total draw of the room, when doing a head to head comparison.
> ...



i ran 1 600 watt hps and 1 600 watt mh over my 4'x6' table as we know the 2 together produce a better spectrum.. then i ran 3 315 cdl's over that same area.. gram per watt was better with 945 watts cdl than 1200 watts hid and the bud produced was just as frosty..


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## TheChemist77 (May 28, 2016)

my first run with cdl got 1.4 gpw far better than my hps or hps/mh combo runs.. every run since has gone up im now getting 1.5 gpw


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## febisfebi (May 28, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> my first run with cdl got 1.4 gpw far better than my hps or hps/mh combo runs.. every run since has gone up im now getting 1.5 gpw


First off I think you mean CDM, not cdl, and please don't take any of this as an attack on you personally.

I'm not sure what kind of MH you were using, I know a lot of people have tried various hps/mh combos, but that is very different when you are talking about a regular old SE HPS, and a regular old 600w MH. I can tell you right now though that a 1:1 ratio of SE HPS and standard MH (as you obviously can tell) is not a comparable lighting system to 3 CMH. The magic number is supposedly around 20% blue, which is why the 3k cmh is (arguably) the preferred all in one flowering light when it comes to CDM/CMH. So you were definitely overdoing it on the blue side, especially when you are talking about your GPW. As I described earlier your GPW is going to come from your HPS. The supplemental is going to raise your quality, and the extra power draw could hurt your overall GPW extensively. So in that case, using a full 600w of supplemental light is going to bring your GPW way down. in fact I would venture to speculate that even 2 315w 3k CMH would still beat out the 1200w combo in GPW. This is why @Merlin34 is able to run a commercial operation with around half the watts covering the same area, and getting better quality, which in his case makes a lot of sense, since the power draw of commercial operations is so much more of a problem at that scale, and quality dictates the crop value over quantity.

I am trying to compare performance of top quality DE HPS, which is a whole different animal than old SE HPS, both in spectrum and overall growing horsepower. Pairing those with Top quality Supplementals, at a 2:1 or even 3:1 ratio. Now this could be anything from for example, a Hortilux blue (which I would personally not suggest for limiting cost or power draw, as it is lacking in both) or similar FS MH, there are other more efficient options in this family of full spec. Similarly, it could be a 4200k CMH, or in my example, an ushio opti-blue, or any of 10 other options available from different mfgs. I figure the opti-blue is a good solution, to the extra power draw, since it is more focused on the parts of the spectrum that the DE is lacking in, and has significant UVA output. But I am still testing all three of these types of supplementals before I make a final decision on which works best. But what I don't have to compare is a roomful of 3k CMH lights.

I just stumbled upon something new I wasn't aware of. I knew that Ushio started making CMH, but I didnt realize they were not just a clone of the Philips. look at the spectral chart of this bad boy. >95CRI: http://www.ushio.com/files/specs/hiluxgro-CMH5002537.pdf

Could potentially be a little lacking in the UVA dept, compared to some other options, but they only go down to 380 on the chart, so we dont really know for sure, but it looks like a steep drop at that point.


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## TheChemist77 (May 29, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> First off I think you mean CDM, not cdl, and please don't take any of this as an attack on you personally.
> 
> I'm not sure what kind of MH you were using, I know a lot of people have tried various hps/mh combos, but that is very different when you are talking about a regular old SE HPS, and a regular old 600w MH. I can tell you right now though that a 1:1 ratio of SE HPS and standard MH (as you obviously can tell) is not a comparable lighting system to 3 CMH. The magic number is supposedly around 20% blue, which is why the 3k cmh is (arguably) the preferred all in one flowering light when it comes to CDM/CMH. So you were definitely overdoing it on the blue side, especially when you are talking about your GPW. As I described earlier your GPW is going to come from your HPS. The supplemental is going to raise your quality, and the extra power draw could hurt your overall GPW extensively. So in that case, using a full 600w of supplemental light is going to bring your GPW way down. in fact I would venture to speculate that even 2 315w 3k CMH would still beat out the 1200w combo in GPW. This is why @Merlin34 is able to run a commercial operation with around half the watts covering the same area, and getting better quality, which in his case makes a lot of sense, since the power draw of commercial operations is so much more of a problem at that scale, and quality dictates the crop value over quantity.
> 
> ...




please let us know the results of ur testing..
cdl=ceramic discharge lamp, cmh= ceramic metal halide, lec= light emitting ceramic,,all the same thing.. i got mine from boulder lamp and it sais cdl on the box.. anyways i like your thoughts, as its all about spectrum and tring to replicate the sun spec indoors..however ive grown with reg digital, and magnetic,hid for 20+ years ive never hit 1.5 gram per watt with hps alone or the hps/mh combo..im loving the results ive gotten with the ceramics, yield and potency


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## febisfebi (May 29, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> please let us know the results of ur testing..
> cdl=ceramic discharge lamp, cmh= ceramic metal halide, lec= light emitting ceramic,,all the same thing.. i got mine from boulder lamp and it sais cdl on the box.. anyways i like your thoughts, as its all about spectrum and tring to replicate the sun spec indoors..however ive grown with reg digital, and magnetic,hid for 20+ years ive never hit 1.5 gram per watt with hps alone or the hps/mh combo..im loving the results ive gotten with the ceramics, yield and potency


I have heard CMH, CDM, and Lec, but CDL is a new one to me. my bad. I wonder how many more different names they will come up with for the same thing.

Most people will have trouble hitting 1.5 gpw with any sort of SE HPS and non specialized MH. Its tech from 20 years ago. If it were possible for the average grower, then we would have heard about it, there is no question about that. But with the newer DE HPS, and some of the new fancy MH/ FS/ specialty supplemental lights out there, the results will undoubtedly be different. like I said, I know some people are getting 1.5 gpw wtih DE HPS alone. I'd like to find out what a supplemented DE HPS can do, and if it will stack up against CMH in yeild, and potency.


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## mstuhxjk (Jun 14, 2016)

Theres actually a 630W dual CMH by grower's choice, has anyone heard or tried it?

they supposedly fit in any DE fixtures


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## dbkick (Jun 14, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> First off I think you mean CDM, not cdl, and please don't take any of this as an attack on you personally.
> 
> I'm not sure what kind of MH you were using, I know a lot of people have tried various hps/mh combos, but that is very different when you are talking about a regular old SE HPS, and a regular old 600w MH. I can tell you right now though that a 1:1 ratio of SE HPS and standard MH (as you obviously can tell) is not a comparable lighting system to 3 CMH. The magic number is supposedly around 20% blue, which is why the 3k cmh is (arguably) the preferred all in one flowering light when it comes to CDM/CMH. So you were definitely overdoing it on the blue side, especially when you are talking about your GPW. As I described earlier your GPW is going to come from your HPS. The supplemental is going to raise your quality, and the extra power draw could hurt your overall GPW extensively. So in that case, using a full 600w of supplemental light is going to bring your GPW way down. in fact I would venture to speculate that even 2 315w 3k CMH would still beat out the 1200w combo in GPW. This is why @Merlin34 is able to run a commercial operation with around half the watts covering the same area, and getting better quality, which in his case makes a lot of sense, since the power draw of commercial operations is so much more of a problem at that scale, and quality dictates the crop value over quantity.
> 
> ...


That ushio lamp like the O rated philips has uv blocking and states it right on the base. Solis tek makes the only O rated 315 lamp without uv blocking. There are so many things going on in the HID world it will make your head spin.
Hortilux is doing some new things that should be interesting, white hps, DE.. Sunplix is making a ballast for the allstart
860.
http://solis-tek.com/solistek-315w-ceramic-metal-halide-3200k-lamp.html
http://eyehortilux.com/products/CHPS600-PerformanceSpecs.aspx
http://sunplix.com/


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## febisfebi (Jun 14, 2016)

mstuhxjk said:


> Theres actually a 630W dual CMH by grower's choice, has anyone heard or tried it?
> 
> they supposedly fit in any DE fixtures


are you sure, that's really weird, because de sockets only have one wire and a clip that i wouldn't trust to hold a bulb from one end. How do you fire a bulb with one wire, thats what i wanna know, ahaha. I assume you need a special ballast anyways, and its not like DE hoods are cheap or anything. Unless of course they are talking about a double ended 630w CMH bulb, which I don't think you are, but correct me if i'm wrong.



dbkick said:


> That ushio lamp like the O rated philips has uv blocking and states it right on the base. Solis tek makes the only O rated 315 lamp without uv blocking. There are so many things going on in the HID world it will make your head spin.
> Hortilux is doing some new things that should be interesting, white hps, DE.. Sunplix is making a ballast for the allstart
> 860.
> http://solis-tek.com/solistek-315w-ceramic-metal-halide-3200k-lamp.html
> ...


Virtually all bulbs outer shell is made of borosilicate glass which has uv blocking properties, but they are mostly for the harmful (to humans) UVB, and UVC that they block 90 some percent of. A good portion of UVA makes it through non specialized glass. 
The only bulbs I know of that use different (quarts) glass for the outer shell, are DE bulbs, which essentially ditch the outer shell and just have a quarts glass outer layer, which is high quality glass that is usually reserved for the arc tubes and sleeves inside the Boro shell. aslo solis tek claims to have some "low iron" glass, that doesnt block uv so much, but from what I understand regular boro glass doesnt have iron in it either. so I was warned that may just be a marketing gimmick. whether or not they have a special glass that lets more UV(X) through than regular bulbs we would need a uv intensity tester to use on both bulbs at the same distances to compare, and I dont think anyone around here has one of those lying around unfortunately. i'v got 2 bulbs that clearly state they emit UVA down to 350nm, they both have regular boro glass. I know you cant beleive everything companies say, but I think its pretty clear that almost all HID bulbs emit some UVA, including HPS, MH, CMH, and other specialty bulbs. sure some of it is blocked, but peolple talk about UV as a whole, but what they are really talking about is (the harmful) UVB/C from which special blocking properties are required on regular light bulbs glass most of the time, so that carries over into our lights since mfg methods and tech is used pretty universally most types of light bulbs. UVA is a different story. Since it is not particularly harmful to anything but your eyes, and your not supposed to stare at a light bulb (hence lamp shades) they are not required to block it as significantly, so a lot more gets through.. UVB and UVA are both useful for plants, but serve different purposes.

I'm glad they are making some advances in HID lighting. Now that they are getting so much pressure from the idea of all theses HID users switching over to LED, now that there are at least some decent options for led, they are finally being forced to innovate, to keep us burning our low efficiency hid lights, and more importantly buying bulbs that have to be replaced constantly. I like the hortilux spectrum. it looks even more complete than DE. too bad they only make it in 600. but im not sure how useful the extra far red is, cause the plant curve takes nosedive after 650nm, but it looks like there is some usable light in there that DE lacks.. its about time. we havent had major advances in the past 20 years other than slight variations on old tech. CMH has been around for a while, even to the point where it has largely been phased out in exchange for led's in streetlights, cause they cant compete in terms of power draw, life, etc.


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## dbkick (Jun 14, 2016)

More wattages to come, the 600 se isnt even on shelves yet. Theyll be releasing de in October


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## mstuhxjk (Jun 15, 2016)

Yup pretty damn sure.

Anyone has tried these??!!?!?!?!?!

I have a bunch of gavitas and would love to use these

http://growershouse.com/growers-choice-3k-630w-double-ended-cmh

http://www.growersc.com/#!630w-4k/m2wm4


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## febisfebi (Jun 15, 2016)

HA, cool, two CMH arc tubes in a DE sleeve. I never would have thought of that but that's awesome. I though you meant they were putting two separate bulbs in a DE fixture, hence the 1 wire comment. What I would be worried about is its supposed to be 630, so what kind of ballast do you use. just a regular 600w they say.. and im assuming that would mean a magnetic 600w, because CMH arc tubes will rattle apart with high freq electronic ballasts, that are supplied with all but one kind of DE fixture from revolution micro, but its a 1kw. 

Edit: yeah I highly doubt these will work on your gavita fixtures, unless its just the hood. you could use that with a different ballast. The question is which one. I assume 600w mag, unless they are making a square wave for it

I don't think you can just turn down a 1000w ballast to 600 and use a 600w bulb in it. I don't think that's how the dimming works on 1000w ballasts, but I've never tried any thing like that. They should be making a 630w low freq. square wave ballast to go with it. I wonder if they make it out of quartz glass, like other DE sleeves. I believe quartz is supposed to have less uv blocking properties than regular borosilicate, which would obviously be a selling point for this product. EExpensive though, oouuch almost $200 for the 4k. I wonder why its so much more. But all the CMH stuff is an expensive habit, with the exception of an allstart and mag ballast. and now were talking DE hoods to go with, but at least you get the output of 2 so you have less fixtures overall.


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## mstuhxjk (Jun 15, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> HA, cool, two CMH arc tubes in a DE sleeve. I never would have thought of that but that's awesome. I though you meant they were putting two separate bulbs in a DE fixture, hence the 1 wire comment. What I would be worried about is its supposed to be 630, so what kind of ballast do you use. just a regular 600w they say.. and im assuming that would mean a magnetic 600w, because CMH arc tubes will rattle apart with high freq electronic ballasts, that are supplied with all but one kind of DE fixture from revolution micro, but its a 1kw.
> 
> Edit: yeah I highly doubt these will work on your gavita fixtures, unless its just the hood. you could use that with a different ballast. The question is which one. I assume 600w mag, unless they are making a square wave for it
> 
> I don't think you can just turn down a 1000w ballast to 600 and use a 600w bulb in it. I don't think that's how the dimming works on 1000w ballasts, but I've never tried any thing like that. They should be making a 630w low freq. square wave ballast to go with it. I wonder if they make it out of quartz glass, like other DE sleeves. I believe quartz is supposed to have less uv blocking properties than regular borosilicate, which would obviously be a selling point for this product. EExpensive though, oouuch almost $200 for the 4k. I wonder why its so much more. But all the CMH stuff is an expensive habit, with the exception of an allstart and mag ballast. and now were talking DE hoods to go with, but at least you get the output of 2 so you have less fixtures overall.


Thanks for your reply. Hmmmm....interesting. Im actually talking to this guy that works for them, and he assures me that they work with any DE fixtures and ballast on high frequency. 

If these could replace my 1000ws that would be so awesome. They are selling online for 138+ Tax, i can mess with that if it performs...

Anyone actually tried these bulbs?


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## bottletoke (Jun 15, 2016)

mstuhxjk said:


> Thanks for your reply. Hmmmm....interesting. Im actually talking to this guy that works for them, and he assures me that they work with any DE fixtures and ballast on high frequency.
> 
> If these could replace my 1000ws that would be so awesome. They are selling online for 138+ Tax, i can mess with that if it performs...
> 
> Anyone actually tried these bulbs?


Edit: never mind, just saw the link above. Wonder if its 400v? If it is then its gavita compatible.


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## Sire Killem All (Jun 15, 2016)

My nanolux 630 (2×315w's) are high frequency.


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## SoOLED (Jun 15, 2016)

Tim Fox said:


> what i am noticing ,, is this, all the new led start ups may go out of buisness if it turns out the cmh 315 performs better?



I'm finding they make great supporting flower lights. I have supplemented my LED grows with CMH's getting pretty close to 1100 weights.

concentrate makers are keyed on LEC/CMH because of perceived boost in resins by the UV/UBB

but the CMH, I can bet bring color to the flower, for what ever reason. flower under HPS color wise look more softer vs the vivid stark colors I see when I run the CMH's you will still get more weight from the 1100's its has a great crisp frosty cyan tone in the jar. the CMH jars look full of color and contrast, albeit truth be told the nuggs are a bit smaller, just as frosty though.

mixing lights: is a practice I have always subscribed too. whatever lights they maybe.

ADD: I don't like the dual bulb CMH solutions, I don't like the built in ballast either.


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## bottletoke (Jun 15, 2016)

I use lec/cmh's in my veg room and flowering support on my gavitas. I do notice that the plants that are closer to the lec lamps get a bit tighter buds and it might be a mindfuck but I swear they smell stronger and better. Noticed it more before I got the gavitas and was using the lec's as supplemental lighting with 1000w hps open air vert lamps, really brought out the colors which the gavitas now do.


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## mstuhxjk (Jun 15, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> Edit: never mind, just saw the link above. Wonder if its 400v? If it is then its gavita compatible.


Just asked the dude works under the gavitas. Can run it on 660. 

He told me someone is supercharging their galaxy's to 1150 and running a splitter with them.
so one 1000w ballast, running two 630W CMH with two separate hoods 

Can anyone confirm this!?!?!?!? This is making me so excited lol


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## bottletoke (Jun 15, 2016)

mstuhxjk said:


> Just asked the dude works under the gavitas. Can run it on 660.
> 
> He told me someone is supercharging their galaxy's to 1150 and running a splitter with them.
> so one 1000w ballast, running two 630W CMH with two separate hoods
> ...


Problem with this is if one lamp dies the other lamp is going to get the full 1150 and the last thing you want is a cmh exploding cuz your gonna have yourself a fire. If your gonna try it you better fuse each lamp to its max capacity.


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## febisfebi (Jun 15, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> Problem with this is if one lamp dies the other lamp is going to get the full 1150 and the last thing you want is a cmh exploding cuz your gonna have yourself a fire. If your gonna try it you better fuse each lamp to its max capacity.


if one lamp dies the circuit is broken, assuming you wire them in series, which you would need to split the voltage I think. 
When the circuit is broken it has the effect of powering the other bulb down. ballast would be running still, but nothing to draw power from the other end, may make it jump into super low power save mode, if you have a newer electronic ballast auto sensing ballast, that is, which most are, but you never know, cause they don't like to tell you the things you need most, and there is usually some sort of monetary reasoning behind this, they figure if they keep us ignorant, then they can come up with new flashy names for things as they pull wool out from over our eyes just enough to have their new product launch successful, and then keep with the program. 

Soo I think the warning should be something like: Do not wire in parallel if you try this. It probably wont even work, but like @bottletoke said it could be dangerous. We are not talking about wiring led's here, this could cause a real fire.
I still recommend using a correct fuse for each bulb separately wired right before the bulb on the positive wire in your series circuit


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## bottletoke (Jun 15, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> if one lamp dies the circuit is broken, assuming you wire them in series, which you would need to split the voltage I think.
> When the circuit is broken it has the effect of powering the other bulb down. ballast would be running still, but nothing to draw power from the other end, may make it jump into super low power save mode, if you have a newer electronic ballast auto sensing ballast, that is, which most are, but you never know, cause they don't like to tell you the things you need most, and there is usually some sort of monetary reasoning behind this, they figure if they keep us ignorant, then they can come up with new flashy names for things as they pull wool out from over our eyes just enough to have their new product launch successful, and then keep with the program.
> 
> Soo I think the warning should be something like: Do not wire in parallel if you try this. It probably wont even work, but like @bottletoke said it could be dangerous. We are not talking about wiring led's here, this could cause a real fire.
> I still recommend using a correct fuse for each bulb separately wired right before the bulb on the positive wire in your series circuit


I'm an electrician with a graduate diploma in electrical technology. you wouldn't wire this in series. Its an inductive circuit which requires constant voltage. A series circuit is only good on resistive loads where current is constant and the voltage drop doesn't matter.
Edit: not trying to be a dick, just saying it won't work in series.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 17, 2016)

mstuhxjk said:


> Yup pretty damn sure.
> 
> Anyone has tried these??!!?!?!?!?!
> 
> ...


I have these.. only ran testing so far.. can't wait to get a run in with these babies...i was hoping no-one caught on to fast


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## mstuhxjk (Jun 17, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> I have these.. only ran testing so far.. can't wait to get a run in with these babies...i was hoping no-one caught on to fast




If you dont mind me asking...where did you get them? i went to my local store and they have never heard of them. im based in Norcal also.

How long have you tested them for? how are they looking??? Sorry for all these questions, im just really interested in getting some of these.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 17, 2016)

I have only ran some par testing and basic hand to heat test vs reg D/E ran at the same currents, voltage, watts/% etc.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 17, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> I have only ran some par testing and basic hand to heat test vs reg D/E ran at the same currents, voltage, watts/% etc.


based off of just those I'm pretty impressed, i tested 4k D/E CMH vs Solis TEK D/E 4k and par on the solis tek is a little higher by the hairs... but the temp difference is about 5-10 degree flux difference.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 17, 2016)

when i have a chance i can and will post pictures, and i purchased a bulk order of these bulbs at a convention/expo in Detroit, soon as i seen the tech i jumped on it because i had the same idea myself i had actually seen double ended cmh for fish tanks but bulbs were 50-150 watts max i knew it wouldn't be long before someone else caught on.


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## febisfebi (Jun 19, 2016)

bottletoke said:


> I'm an electrician with a graduate diploma in electrical technology. you wouldn't wire this in series. Its an inductive circuit which requires constant voltage. A series circuit is only good on resistive loads where current is constant and the voltage drop doesn't matter.
> Edit: not trying to be a dick, just saying it won't work in series.


No offense taken. I'm glad you are there to tell people that wouldn't work that way.


coughphee.connoiseur said:


> I have only ran some par testing and basic hand to heat test vs reg D/E ran at the same currents, voltage, watts/% etc.


Cool, Have you found out any intersting data on them?
Edit: sorry, your second and third posts didnt show up for me right away. Are you comparing to a 600w solistek 4k, or a dimmed 1000w? I assume the heat is lower right?


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 19, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> No offense taken. I'm glad you are there to tell people that wouldn't work that way.
> 
> Cool, Have you found out any intersting data on them?
> Edit: sorry, your second and third posts didnt show up for me right away. Are you comparing to a 600w solistek 4k, or a dimmed 1000w? I assume the heat is lower right?


Thats is tru i didn't take that into consideration. It is in fact a 1000watt bulb dimmed down so unfair comparisons. Overall of course the heat and improved temperature flux is the key winner.


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## febisfebi (Jun 21, 2016)

yeah 1000w dimmed to 600 still burns way hotter than a 600w bulb on a 600w ballast. Which is why I wonder why/how this works in a 1000w ballast. AFAIK any other 600w bulbs will not work in this manner, but I have not tried.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 22, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> yeah 1000w dimmed to 600 still burns way hotter than a 600w bulb on a 600w ballast. Which is why I wonder why/how this works in a 1000w ballast. AFAIK any other 600w bulbs will not work in this manner, but I have not tried.


ohhhh yes i just remembered... I specially purchased 2 new fixtures the d/e flex 750 which only goes up to 825 max and down to 300 watts via gavita controller. The solis tek bulb is still a thouie dimmed down. vs the cmh 630 watt


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## febisfebi (Jun 23, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> ohhhh yes i just remembered... I specially purchased 2 new fixtures the d/e flex 750 which only goes up to 825 max and down to 300 watts via gavita controller. The solis tek bulb is still a thouie dimmed down. vs the cmh 630 watt


So your running the CMH on gavita de 750? So they really will work on any de fixtures, being mainly 1000watters? Do you dim it down to 600, or how does that work?


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 23, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> So your running the CMH on gavita de 750? So they really will work on any de fixtures, being mainly 1000watters? Do you dim it down to 600, or how does that work?


Yes de 750, I suppose they will, i left the running for hours, haven't had a full run yet can't wait though. I fired them up at 300watt, then went up to 400-500watt and then 615max out.


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## Muleskinner (Jun 25, 2016)

People that are curious about CMH should look at the Univ. of Utah research. This study says the YPF (yield photon flux) of Philips HPS bulbs is 95%, the Philips CMH bulb, 90%. You multiply that number by the PAR count for each bulb to get the useable light for plants, YPF is a weighted average.

So if the PAR number for an HPS light exceeds that of a CMH bulb, the useable light for plants will be even higher with HPS. You can also see that CMH does put more of the total output into the PAR part of the spectrum than HPS, but HPS still has higher overall PAR numbers because it puts out so much more light (lumens or lux). So the HPS light puts out more net PAR, and 6% more of that light is at the spectral points utilized by plants:

https://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/GB USU Spectral Characterization link.pdf


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## febisfebi (Jun 26, 2016)

Muleskinner said:


> People that are curious about CMH should look at the Univ. of Utah research. This study says the YPF (yield photon flux) of Philips HPS bulbs is 95%, the Philips CMH bulb, 90%. You multiply that number by the PAR count for each bulb to get the useable light for plants, YPF is a weighted average.
> 
> So if the PAR number for an HPS light exceeds that of a CMH bulb, the useable light for plants will be even higher with HPS. You can also see that CMH does put more of the total output into the PAR part of the spectrum than HPS, but HPS still has higher overall PAR numbers because it puts out so much more light (lumens or lux). So the HPS light puts out more net PAR, and 6% more of that light is at the spectral points utilized by plant
> 
> https://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/GB USU Spectral Characterization link.pdf


as you can see, varying amounts of UVA are emitted by HID bulbs. As far as what that means for plants, its far as that means for plants, its hard to say for sure, but according to their mcree curve+UV and IR graph they based their YPF calculation on, it looks like plants can use large amounts of UVA and significant amouts of UVB. interestingly enough the phillips bulbs they tested werent particularly high in UVA, but they are also the lower kelvin bulbs, so it makes sense. But the question is, is UVA the reason people seem to report more potent thc, and strong odor from CMH grown, or is it just the full spectrum bit. probably a bit of both. 
It would be interesting to see a side by side with CMH and COB LED, which have the full spectrum, without the UVA, and see which produces better quality.


----------



## mstuhxjk (Jun 29, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> Yes de 750, I suppose they will, i left the running for hours, haven't had a full run yet can't wait though. I fired them up at 300watt, then went up to 400-500watt and then 615max out.


Found this picture comparing 1000w hps to 630 CMH DE, the structure of the flower looking very different...def looks good. Just wondering what weight this thing can pull.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jun 30, 2016)

mstuhxjk said:


> Found this picture comparing 1000w hps to 630 CMH DE, the structure of the flower looking very different...def looks good. Just wondering what weight this thing can pull.
> 
> View attachment 3720373


weirdly i think i like the looks of the hps more....


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## febisfebi (Jun 30, 2016)

uhh you know the hps is the one on the left right?... the cmh has a much whiter color of light so even though they are not lableled, it is easy to tell. Assuming you know that, what is it you like about the looks of the hps more? just curious


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jul 1, 2016)

febisfebi said:


> uhh you know the hps is the one on the left right?... the cmh has a much whiter color of light so even though they are not lableled, it is easy to tell. Assuming you know that, what is it you like about the looks of the hps more? just curious



At first glance i felt that the hps side was better stacked and seemed it would fill out better. But now I'm kind second guessing that... i had just woken up earlier. 

The cmh seems to have much faster development at least maybe a week ahead.


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## febisfebi (Jul 1, 2016)

agreed


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## HGK420 (Jul 30, 2016)

i got some side by side for the 3rd time now. same strain. different lights. I've done room tests and had whole rooms come out better, but the side by sides needed to be done to really know imo.

I'm running the 630 nanolux with the 3100 bulbs i think.. i don't remember which ones i got. anyway... the HPS's win if the goal is overall bud size, i give it a 10% advantage in the size department.... this DOESNT mean weight tho.. as far as i can tell these 630w yield the same on average as my 1000w HPS's. it goes back and forth but i get virtually 5-6 ounces a plant under either lights.

the CMH is cooler. the cmh stacks much better in veg. the cmh uses less power. the cmh's bulb lasts for 2 years at 12/12 and your still at 90%..

so at the end of the day.. I'm swapping to all CMH's


next test is going to be if 2 315's spread out a little will do better then a single 630w double hood. more sources of light should help light penetration oodles.

il try to get some pics later.


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## GroErr (Jul 30, 2016)

Nice @HGK420 40% less power usage (not even accounting for additional cooling costs with hps), same or even close to same weight is not a bad return. An immediate payback regardless of how big the room is or how many units. I've converted a couple of small ops from hps to LEC's and found much the same, watt for watt there's no comparison, they're both producing 25-30% more under the same wattage and would never consider going back. The initial cost of converting is about the only hold-back most folks have but if you go by the numbers, it's a no-brainer.


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## HGK420 (Jul 30, 2016)

ya at the end of the year its easy a 15% savings for the same return. i don't keep track down to the gram but i keep pretty close track and this year looks the same as last year and half my lights are the 630's.

i honestly can't even come up with a downside. the mounted ballast doesn't get hot. the whole set up is balanced well and VERY light so you can use the cheaper hangers if you want to.

also the screw in lightbulb "mogul" style socket is SUPER old. its actually called an "edison" socket because that old dude came up with it lol. these new CMH's have a different type of socket that was recently invented and its supposed to be vastly more efficient. 

this new socket actually came about because of the marijuana grow industry too according to an article i read. phillips didn't like that any company could just make grow hoods or something like that so they released this latest patent... which took all of 2 weeks for grow companies to integrate into their new hoods. (i read this in the forums so take it with a grain of salt)

long story short.. CMH rules


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## Muleskinner (Jul 30, 2016)

FWIW, I thought the CMH sockets sucked. It takes a lot more force to twist the bulb in or out, and you're grabbing glass. On a hanging reflector assembly. it's asymmetrical which means the right post has to go into the right hole as well.

how is the 2-post socket more efficient? The only advantage would be holding the bulb slightly closer to the true center of the reflector, which is trivial IMO. And the bulb is still unsupported on one end, so it may not center 100%. Centering and the lack of any support wire over the bulb are the reasons why DE is better that mogul. CMH still needs the support wire. But these are only 1 or 2% differences anyway.

we don't need to rely on forums anymore to see what what the cannabis grow industry is doing, or what gear has been developed for it. Just go to the nearest industry convention and talk to the pros. That's what I did. Urban Gro developed their own Philips/PL CMH fixture - they sell it as the ultimate veg lamp. They will tell you that the P.L. Light 1000w NXT 2 fixture is the state-of-the-art cannabis flowering lamp for efficiency and cost of operation. For smaller tents they advise using P.L.'s 600w HPS fixture - NOT dimming a 1000W fixture which I thought was interesting as well. They don't recommend dimming HID bulbs.

can't recommend going to the conferences highly enough! everybody's there, Gavita, all the LED companies, etc. these people are busy working to outfit massive commersh greenhouses in CO and elsewhere:

http://urban-gro.com/grow-light-solutions/cannabis-lighting-products/


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## Pig4buzz (Jul 30, 2016)

Read the entire thread never real proof of anything. The thread was suppose to be about yields of CMH. Seems it turned into a comparison of lights. Revamp maybe. Maybe many misunderstood the thread? Maybe I did?


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jul 30, 2016)

Pig4buzz said:


> Read the entire thread never real proof of anything. The thread was suppose to be about yields of CMH. Seems it turned into a comparison of lights. Revamp maybe. Maybe many misunderstood the thread? Maybe I did?


lol... shit happens


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## HGK420 (Jul 30, 2016)

Muleskinner said:


> FWIW, I thought the CMH sockets sucked. It takes a lot more force to twist the bulb in or out, and you're grabbing glass. On a hanging reflector assembly. it's asymmetrical which means the right post has to go into the right hole as well.
> 
> how is the 2-post socket more efficient? The only advantage would be holding the bulb slightly closer to the true center of the reflector, which is trivial IMO. And the bulb is still unsupported on one end, so it may not center 100%. Centering and the lack of any support wire over the bulb are the reasons why DE is better that mogul. CMH still needs the support wire. But these are only 1 or 2% differences anyway.
> 
> ...


i don't remember exactly what was more efficient but i think it was how much distance the energy travels while inside the bulb maybe? maybe it was the way the 2 parts connect vs the threaded part. i just remember reading a big article about how that socket was like 17% more efficient... obviously i don't remember exact percentage.

whats so special about the urban gro's? they look like digital CMH's?


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## GroErr (Jul 30, 2016)

Pig4buzz said:


> Read the entire thread never real proof of anything. The thread was suppose to be about yields of CMH. Seems it turned into a comparison of lights. Revamp maybe. Maybe many misunderstood the thread? Maybe I did?


Let's try and get this back on track, last run with 5x 3gal in a 3.5x3.5' under 1x 315w Sun Systems LEC at the front 



Cheers


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## Pig4buzz (Jul 30, 2016)

@GroErr that space is only 3.5x3.5 or just front half of space?


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## §Leigh§ (Jul 31, 2016)

Hello hello all I was really interested in this thread because I'm considering switching over to the ceramic metal halide. I currently run 2000 Watt HPS is in a 8 by 7 grow room and ended up with a very large electric bill and I'm not a very good yield. I was considering just buying the 860 Phillips bulb for my hoods and running them off my thousand watt magnetic ballast. However from what I gather doing that I will not see much of a difference in my electric now this will be my second run and I'm trying to find the most cost-efficient way two obviously get the most grams per watt and best flower. I am a little confused by all of the different types of lighting I had read about and all of the different types out of the woods they are used with I don't have the money to go out and buy 315 watt bulbs and complete setups to cover the 8 x 7 area. Is there anyway to just go and get different ballast and still run them off the same Hood? It is a Sun System single. I am a fan of the metal halide for its color spectrum seems to be the higher yield and a quicker turnaround yes I do eventually want to incorporate different lighting but I want a gear away from indeed metal halide and HPS for cost/ heat reasons. Im in Cen cal .The COB being my first choice as supplemental and a dyi as I go. I currently have 4T 5 I run as supplemental.. so if somebody could break it down for me a newbie language I would greatly appreciate it. I currently have 240 wired in. A bunch of magnetic ballast sand magnetic adjustable but they are all 1000 Watts. I do have two adjustable lumatek ballast however from what I understood it was told to me from the local store not to use a digital ballast on them. So if anyone would care to message it to me or respond to this post I would greatly appreciate it I've got about a week and a half to switch everything over. I run mainly Indica hybrid however just for Giggles I have a Jack Herer in there. So I need to adjust the lighting where he seems to grow like the Jolly Green Giant. Thank you

And what seems to be the difference between an LEC and a CMH??


----------



## HGK420 (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> Hello hello all I was really interested in this thread because I'm considering switching over to the ceramic metal halide. I currently run 2000 Watt HPS is in a 8 by 7 grow room and ended up with a very large electric bill and I'm not a very good yield. I was considering just buying the 860 Phillips bulb for my hoods and running them off my thousand watt magnetic ballast. However from what I gather doing that I will not see much of a difference in my electric now this will be my second run and I'm trying to find the most cost-efficient way two obviously get the most grams per watt and best flower. I am a little confused by all of the different types of lighting I had read about and all of the different types out of the woods they are used with I don't have the money to go out and buy 315 watt bulbs and complete setups to cover the 8 x 7 area. Is there anyway to just go and get different ballast and still run them off the same Hood? It is a Sun System single. I am a fan of the metal halide for its color spectrum seems to be the higher yield and a quicker turnaround yes I do eventually want to incorporate different lighting but I want a gear away from indeed metal halide and HPS for cost/ heat reasons. Im in Cen cal .The COB being my first choice as supplemental and a dyi as I go. I currently have 4T 5 I run as supplemental.. so if somebody could break it down for me a newbie language I would greatly appreciate it. I currently have 240 wired in. A bunch of magnetic ballast sand magnetic adjustable but they are all 1000 Watts. I do have two adjustable lumatek ballast however from what I understood it was told to me from the local store not to use a digital ballast on them. So if anyone would care to message it to me or respond to this post I would greatly appreciate it I've got about a week and a half to switch everything over. I run mainly Indica hybrid however just for Giggles I have a Jack Herer in there. So I need to adjust the lighting where he seems to grow like the Jolly Green Giant. Thank you
> 
> And what seems to be the difference between an LEC and a CMH??



in an 8x7 area i would shoot for more light sources. i try not to exceed 4x4 per light source. (5.5'x5.5' with gavita 1000's)

so it depends on your main goals i guess.

if your trying to absolutely maximize your 8x7 area while trying to keep your bill near the same, i would run 4 630w ceramic metal halides. you will be using a tad more power but your yields will more then likely double if not triple. the 2 sources of light in that big of an area creates a lot of shadowing and rally inhibits light penetration.

if your trying to get the most efficiency out of a space like that, id run 4 315w CMH's. the extra sources of light at angles the leaves don't block is really important for maximizing yields. anyone claiming 1.5+ grams a watt isn't doing that off of a single bulb, the angled light coming in from other bulbs in the vicinity IS KEY to big yields.

i used to run an 8 x 8 area with 2 1000w HPS like yourself. the best yields i got when doing so was when i ran the bulbs vertical in the middle of their respective 4x8 area. it took a lot of rotating plants but i got some pretty amazing results. if you add in man hours it wasn't anymore beneficial then running a 4 light set up tho.

also if you wanna keep new purchases to a minimum, i know you can run 2 600w's off of a 1000w ballast at 90% power (i think that was the percent) so you could go buy 2 more hoods, the splitters, and 4 600w HPS bulbs and you will be WAYYYYY better off then 2 1000w HPS.

MOAR SOURCES OF TEH LIGHT!!!


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## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

Pig4buzz said:


> @GroErr that space is only 3.5x3.5 or just front half of space?


That's 2 runs in there, the bottom/front is the 3.5x3.5' under the LEC. At the back is a smaller 30" x 42" or so under 3590 COBs. Overall room is 4'x9'x7.5'H...


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## §Leigh§ (Jul 31, 2016)

HGK420 said:


> in an 8x7 area i would shoot for more light sources. i try not to exceed 4x4 per light source. (5.5'x5.5' with gavita 1000's)
> 
> so it depends on your main goals i guess.
> 
> ...


Ty...the 315w cmh's, can i use magnetic ballasts? 1000 w? Or lumatek adjustable 600- super lumen? With the sunsystem hood?

The 630w cmh could i use the lumatek ballasts and keep them at 600w? In the same hoods? 
I have 4 hoods, sunsystem and enough mag. Mh ballast..2 adjustable..


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## §Leigh§ (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> Ty...the 315w cmh's, can i use magnetic ballasts? 1000 w? Or lumatek adjustable 600- super lumen? With the sunsystem hood?
> 
> The 630w cmh could i use the lumatek ballasts and keep them at 600w? In the same hoods?
> I have 4 hoods, sunsystem and enough mag. Mh ballast..2 adjustable..


I want to run 15- 18 girls


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## HGK420 (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> Ty...the 315w cmh's, can i use magnetic ballasts? 1000 w? Or lumatek adjustable 600- super lumen? With the sunsystem hood?
> 
> The 630w cmh could i use the lumatek ballasts and keep them at 600w? In the same hoods?
> I have 4 hoods, sunsystem and enough mag. Mh ballast..2 adjustable..


no you would have to get the cmh ballast and hood. they usually come as combos. the 315 with bulb is about 400-420 right now, the 630 with BULBS(need 2) is like $580 unless u can find a sale.


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## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> Hello hello all I was really interested in this thread because I'm considering switching over to the ceramic metal halide. I currently run 2000 Watt HPS is in a 8 by 7 grow room and ended up with a very large electric bill and I'm not a very good yield. I was considering just buying the 860 Phillips bulb for my hoods and running them off my thousand watt magnetic ballast. However from what I gather doing that I will not see much of a difference in my electric now this will be my second run and I'm trying to find the most cost-efficient way two obviously get the most grams per watt and best flower. I am a little confused by all of the different types of lighting I had read about and all of the different types out of the woods they are used with I don't have the money to go out and buy 315 watt bulbs and complete setups to cover the 8 x 7 area. Is there anyway to just go and get different ballast and still run them off the same Hood? It is a Sun System single. I am a fan of the metal halide for its color spectrum seems to be the higher yield and a quicker turnaround yes I do eventually want to incorporate different lighting but I want a gear away from indeed metal halide and HPS for cost/ heat reasons. Im in Cen cal .The COB being my first choice as supplemental and a dyi as I go. I currently have 4T 5 I run as supplemental.. so if somebody could break it down for me a newbie language I would greatly appreciate it. I currently have 240 wired in. A bunch of magnetic ballast sand magnetic adjustable but they are all 1000 Watts. I do have two adjustable lumatek ballast however from what I understood it was told to me from the local store not to use a digital ballast on them. So if anyone would care to message it to me or respond to this post I would greatly appreciate it I've got about a week and a half to switch everything over. I run mainly Indica hybrid however just for Giggles I have a Jack Herer in there. So I need to adjust the lighting where he seems to grow like the Jolly Green Giant. Thank you
> 
> And what seems to be the difference between an LEC and a CMH??


We're generally referring to the 315's in this thread, the 630's are just running 2x 315's in one hood. They require specific ballast which is what makes them more efficient than even the 860w "CMH", they could potentially fire under other ballasts but you won't get the same efficiency or even spectrum output than the ballast specifically made to fire and run the 315's. I think @ttystikk had tried a couple of ballasts running the 860w bulbs but found the actual power usage was the same as running 1000w bulb which kind of kills the efficiency factor.

LEC = Light Emitting Ceramic (e.g. Suns Systems 315e LEC)
CMH = Ceramic Metal Halide
Both = same thing, just different terminology

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any options but replacing your ballast if you're looking to run the 315's. They do have them available in mogul format for the sockets so they could run inside an hps hood but the ballast doesn't seem to be an option, or at least I haven't seen anyone trying to run those 315's off hps/mh ballasts...


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## §Leigh§ (Jul 31, 2016)

The 860 at local hydro store was 99$ why are the others so expensive??? 

Guess running 3 at 600 hps may be my option...what about the de. If i understood they have the mh/ hps combined?


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## §Leigh§ (Jul 31, 2016)

GroErr said:


> We're generally referring to the 315's in this thread, the 630's are just running 2x 315's in one hood. They require specific ballast which is what makes them more efficient than even the 860w "CMH", they could potentially fire under other ballasts but you won't get the same efficiency or even spectrum output than the ballast specifically made to fire and run the 315's. I think @ttystikk had tried a couple of ballasts running the 860w bulbs but found the actual power usage was the same as running 1000w bulb which kind of kills the efficiency factor.
> 
> LEC = Light Emitting Ceramic (e.g. Suns Systems 315e LEC)
> CMH = Ceramic Metal Halide
> ...


Which hood could i run 2 315w cmh in?


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## §Leigh§ (Jul 31, 2016)

GroErr said:


> That's 2 runs in there, the bottom/front is the 3.5x3.5' under the LEC. At the back is a smaller 30" x 42" or so under 3590 COBs. Overall room is 4'x9'x7.5'H...


As for the cob lighting essentially if I really have no electrical experience whatsoever other than with welding. How hard would it be you and costly to do a build your own


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## HGK420 (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> Which hood could i run 2 315w cmh in?


the nanolux 630 is the one i specifically use. like mentioned its just 1 hood 2 bulbs.


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

GroErr said:


> We're generally referring to the 315's in this thread, the 630's are just running 2x 315's in one hood. They require specific ballast which is what makes them more efficient than even the 860w "CMH", they could potentially fire under other ballasts but you won't get the same efficiency or even spectrum output than the ballast specifically made to fire and run the 315's. I think @ttystikk had tried a couple of ballasts running the 860w bulbs but found the actual power usage was the same as running 1000w bulb which kind of kills the efficiency factor.
> 
> LEC = Light Emitting Ceramic (e.g. Suns Systems 315e LEC)
> CMH = Ceramic Metal Halide
> ...


Well summarized, I'd add that IF you can find a low frequency square wave digital ballast, it will drive the 860W Allstart lamp to about the same efficiency level as the better known 315W CMH system.

I'm currently testing just such a combo now and it is effective.


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> As for the cob lighting essentially if I really have no electrical experience whatsoever other than with welding. How hard would it be you and costly to do a build your own


There's a whole LED section full of people who make it their business to help people just like yourself. Many of them are even advertisers for lights, parts and services related to LED lighting.


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## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> Which hood could i run 2 315w cmh in?


Any double ended hood with two sockets if you can source the mogul socket 315's, and replace the ballasts. The kits with hood/ballast/bulbs made specifically to run the 315's are what @HGK420 referred to above. Sun Systems and Nanolux make those and there are a couple of others. Growershouse.com carries a bunch including the bulbs. I've bought a couple of the 315w Sun Systems kits through them, they have regular sales on lighting so I just waited until they had a sale going on.

As far as COB building goes there are many options and a lot of companies making them to the point where it's questionable to DIY imo. Tons of references and threads in the LED section including some DIY kits from Cutters and others. Those kits include all parts and basically just require assembly. With holders and the like that avoid tapping or drilling, basically build a frame for them and assemble. Couple of links below, a ton of threads on DIY in the first link. Both options (CMH or COBs) are great, I'm still out on which one is better, both can produce great quality and 1gpw with even mid-producing strains and 1.5 gpw relatively easy with a decent producing strain. COBs can probably hit 2 gpw with the right method fully dialed in.

https://www.rollitup.org/f/led-and-other-lighting.124/
https://www.rollitup.org/t/cutter-electronics-complete-diy-cob-kits.902453/


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

GroErr said:


> Any double ended hood with two sockets if you can source the mogul socket 315's, and replace the ballasts. The kits with hood/ballast/bulbs made specifically to run the 315's are what @HGK420 referred to above. Sun Systems and Nanolux make those and there are a couple of others. Growershouse.com carries a bunch including the bulbs. I've bought a couple of the 315w Sun Systems kits through them, they have regular sales on lighting so I just waited until they had a sale going on.
> 
> As far as COB building goes there are many options and a lot of companies making them to the point where it's questionable to DIY imo. Tons of references and threads in the LED section including some DIY kits from Cutters and others. Those kits include all parts and basically just require assembly. With holders and the like that avoid tapping or drilling, basically build a frame for them and assemble. Couple of links below, a ton of threads on DIY in the first link. Both options (CMH or COBs) are great, I'm still out on which one is better, both can produce great quality and 1gpw with even mid-producing strains and 1.5 gpw relatively easy with a decent producing strain. COBs can probably hit 2 gpw with the right method fully dialed in.
> 
> ...


Having run both, COB LED stomps the chit out of anything with a light bulb in it. 

Simple efficiency is just the beginning; as I mentioned before, people can tell the difference from across the room.


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## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Having run both, COB LED stomps the chit out of anything with a light bulb in it.
> 
> Simple efficiency is just the beginning; as I mentioned before, people can tell the difference from across the room.


I'm still out as I've only done a couple of runs under the 3590's, those Sun Systems with the 315's still rock it and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. But damn those COBs produce nice terps/quality.


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

GroErr said:


> I'm still out as I've only done a couple of runs under the 3590's, those Sun Systems with the 315's still rock it and isn't going anywhere anytime soon. But damn those COBs produce nice terps/quality.


Tell ya what; do a full on side by side and hold the watts driven constant; that is, for every 315W of CMH, run as close as you can to 315W of COB LED. I did this and I was convinced.


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## dbkick (Jul 31, 2016)

GroErr said:


> We're generally referring to the 315's in this thread, the 630's are just running 2x 315's in one hood. They require specific ballast which is what makes them more efficient than even the 860w "CMH", they could potentially fire under other ballasts but you won't get the same efficiency or even spectrum output than the ballast specifically made to fire and run the 315's. I think @ttystikk had tried a couple of ballasts running the 860w bulbs but found the actual power usage was the same as running 1000w bulb which kind of kills the efficiency factor.
> 
> LEC = Light Emitting Ceramic (e.g. Suns Systems 315e LEC)
> CMH = Ceramic Metal Halide
> ...


Sunplix has a ballast out designed just for the allstart 860, it dims and also boosts to 1kw. They boast "the first lfsw ballast made to run the allstart 860 " but I know of two other ballasts that have been around for years that will run the allstart 860 to it's potential.


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## dbkick (Jul 31, 2016)

I don't even use my onyx anymore, which may as well be the same as the 3590s but not as cool. Make mine HID!


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## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Tell ya what; do a full on side by side and hold the watts driven constant; that is, for every 315W of CMH, run as close as you can to 315W of COB LED. I did this and I was convinced.


Would love to but that would require more veg space or running a smaller footprint under both fixtures (which I wouldn't want to do as it wouldn't really show me what they can do). I have 300w of COBs which is about as close as it comes to the LEC, just need additional veg space to fill 2x 3x3's or 2x.3.5x3.5's simultaneously. Will get to it but no time soon, we get a short summer here so I'm kind of in a holding pattern until end of summer. Too many other things to do outside while it's nice out 

What I may do just because my holding pattern through the summer could allow it is something like a 3x5' or 3x6' with the LEC in the middle and 100w of COBs on either end, maybe a 3rd 100w angled in the center. Would love to see what mixing up both spectrums can do for both quality and yield...


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

I haven't tried to mix COB & HID. I'll be interested to watch what happens!


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## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

dbkick said:


> I don't even use my onyx anymore, which may as well be the same as the 3590s but not as cool. Make mine HID!


Yeah the onyx were 3070's if I remember right, not bad but I found a huge difference between the 3070's and 3590's. From what I saw the 315's out-produced the 3070's easily while the 3590's are probably going to out-produce the 315 watt-for-watt. Haven't run them (3590's) enough to get real numbers. 1st run though produced 390g from 300w of 3590's and wasn't even pushing them, mix of 3 strains, 2 from seed with real no training other than a super-cropped main. That tells me they have some room to out-produce the 315's.


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## dbkick (Jul 31, 2016)

actually they were xml2 but at least the proper spectrum and there are 28 of them per onyx so......


GroErr said:


> Yeah the onyx were 3070's if I remember right, not bad but I found a huge difference between the 3070's and 3590's. From what I saw the 315's out-produced the 3070's easily while the 3590's are probably going to out-produce the 315 watt-for-watt. Haven't run them (3590's) enough to get real numbers. 1st run though produced 390g from 300w of 3590's and wasn't even pushing them, mix of 3 strains, 2 from seed with real no training other than a super-cropped main. That tells me they have some room to out-produce the 315's.


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## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I haven't tried to mix COB & HID. I'll be interested to watch what happens!


Well I'm headed that way so looks like I'll have the opportunity to try it next round, in about 4 weeks. I have 4x 3gal that'll go into 7gal in the next few days and nothing else coming up in veg, I'll have to skip another perpetual round but not like I need it, my outdoor is on it's way to a couple of elbows  3 are from seed though but I have 1x Blue Ripper in there that I've run under both now so should get an idea by converting the yield to grams per gallon of medium.,


----------



## GroErr (Jul 31, 2016)

dbkick said:


> actually they were xml2 but at least the proper spectrum and there are 28 of them per onyx so......


No reference with the xml2's, never ran those. What has sold me the most on these 3590's is the terps are through the roof in comparison to anything I've run. No explanation why that is but after a couple of rounds with one pheno I've run under 3070's, 315's and now 3590's, the 3590 buds are triple baggers. Anyone I gave samples to of the 3590 buds thought it was a new strain, crazy difference for just a lighting change.


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## §Leigh§ (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Tell ya what; do a full on side by side and hold the watts driven constant; that is, for every 315W of CMH, run as close as you can to 315W of COB LED. I did this and I was convinced.


Cost which is effective for yeild? And what were u convinced?


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

§Leigh§ said:


> Cost which is effective for yeild? And what were u convinced?


Uh, huh? I don't mean to sound rude, but let's try that again with complete sentences.


----------



## SoOLED (Jul 31, 2016)

check on youtube, there is a guy called medigrower did a very well done side by side.


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## powerslide (Jul 31, 2016)

SoOLED said:


> check on youtube, there is a guy called medigrower did a very well done side by side.


i didn't find it. Can you link it?


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## ttystikk (Jul 31, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> Can I ask how much the 860 watt square wave ballast cost?


I got it used and in fact it's a loan. 

You can use the old Bad Ass Ballast from Advanced Nutrients, or the Hortilux Platinum ballast; both of these are discontinued and available intermittently used on ebay and the like. 

There's a new unit for sale called the DeVa from Revolution Micro, advertised here on RIU. It's a one piece fixture, designed for DE HPS or MH but it's also a LFSW ballast.


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## SoOLED (Aug 1, 2016)

powerslide said:


> i didn't find it. Can you link it?


yes, yes I can: the grower is called _cali crop doc:_ there is 7 eps, he is legit, his room clean AF. you can just watch the last one, but they all have very good points or comparison.





[/I]


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> So "watt for watt" an 860w allstart lamp with a low frequency square wave ballast should be very comparable to a 315w CMH?


That is correct, both in theory and in my current experience. So while the lamp is labeled 860W, the driver determines output, same as always. It's called an 860W because Philips says it can be run on 208V three phase, that's 14% less than 240V. If the driver says it's pushing 1000W into the lamp, it most likely is doing just that.

Think of it as the output of three 315W CMH lights in one.


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## dbkick (Aug 1, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I got it used and in fact it's a loan.
> 
> You can use the old Bad Ass Ballast from Advanced Nutrients, or the Hortilux Platinum ballast; both of these are discontinued and available intermittently used on ebay and the like.
> 
> There's a new unit for sale called the DeVa from Revolution Micro, advertised here on RIU. It's a one piece fixture, designed for DE HPS or MH but it's also a LFSW ballast.


Hortilux is still advertising the platinum, I don't think they'll discontinue it. The guy asking about the sunplix, msrp is 649 US. Nobody in their right mind pays msrp so contact sunplix about a distributor in your area, I would imagine they will run around 4 bills, that;s all I'm willing to pay but I've given up since the distributors around here don't do a very good job.


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## SoOLED (Aug 1, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> OK that is exactly what I was wondering, As far as I can tell these bulbs are only available in 3700 and 4000 color temperatures, I know you have a lot of experience with these, will that color temp work well for both veg and flower? I've been wanting to switch out my 1000w HPS's, I use 2x 1000hps per vertical trellis and I wanted to switch out each set of 2 with 4 or 5 315's but I like experimenting I'd like to try using just one 860 allstart on a light mover maybe and see what kind of yield I can accomplish


if you poke around threre is a few more: but phillips makes the agro 4200/3100 but I'm interested in the ushios, it was 3000k and was deep in the left.

soils tek also makes on that is 3100k that had a lot more red then the phillips 3100k, which would make it a better all around bulb.

there is a couple more and at canna expo: expect a few other popular manufacturers to make an offering, although it was stated, "oh we loved to make a chm bulb and have plans" type of answer. take that at you will.


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## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> OK that is exactly what I was wondering, As far as I can tell these bulbs are only available in 3700 and 4000 color temperatures, I know you have a lot of experience with these, will that color temp work well for both veg and flower? I've been wanting to switch out my 1000w HPS's, I use 2x 1000hps per vertical trellis and I wanted to switch out each set of 2 with 4 or 5 315's but I like experimenting I'd like to try using just one 860 allstart on a light mover maybe and see what kind of yield I can accomplish


Swap your HPS for 860W Allstart lamps on a one for one basis, as I did, and you'll see better frost but your yield may suffer a bit, this on magnetic ballast. If you do it with LFSW drivers, your yield will be comparable or a slight increase, again with better frost. 

This is what my own experience has suggested thus far, at least. 

Run the lower Kelvin temp for bloom, which works fine for my veg anyway. 

Remember, the 860W Allstart is vertical only and so light movers will likely make it swing around. That shouldn't stop you, just be aware and plan accordingly.


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## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2016)

SoOLED said:


> if you poke around threre is a few more: but phillips makes the agro 4200/3100 but I'm interested in the ushios, it was 3000k and was deep in the left.
> 
> soils tek also makes on that is 3100k that had a lot more red then the phillips 3100k, which would make it a better all around bulb.
> 
> there is a couple more and at canna expo: expect a few other popular manufacturers to make an offering, although it was stated, "oh we loved to make a chm bulb and have plans" type of answer. take that at you will.


Take it seriously; I've heard several manufacturers are looking to do 1000W CMH DE lamps.


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## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> 860's on a low frequency square drive ballast would be sure to gain a good amount of yield if swapped out on a one for one basis wouldn't they? I'm just thinking that because 315's are said to be comparable to 500 watts of hps so an 860 on a 1000 watt lfsd
> 
> 860's on a low frequency square wave ballast would be sure to gain a good amount of yield if swapped out on a one for one basis wouldn't they? I'm just thinking that because 315's are said to be comparable to 500 watts of hps so an 860 on a 1000 watt LFSW would actually be using 1000 watts even though its only a 860 watt bulb so like you said in another post it should be equivalent to 3x 315's or 1500 watts of hps so you would think I would have the potential to increase yield by 50% especially being that my watt/sq ft is well below the max with 2000 watts per 6' tall trellis that is I believe 54 inches in diameter


Nowhere did I say it would increase yields by 50% over equivalent wattage of HPS. I said I think one would see comparable or maybe slightly better yields, but with better frost.


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## ttystikk (Aug 2, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> I know you didn't say that, let me say this a little differently... Everyone seems to agree 315w LEC's are equivalent to around 500 watts of HPS. An 860 allstart driven by a low frequency square wave ballast should be roughly equivalent to 3x 315w LEC's. So that would make the 860 driven by a LFSW ballast roughly equivalent to 1500w HPS. So if I am replacing 1000w HPS's with 860 allstarts I should be getting about 50% more usable light, I know that 50% more light doesn't exactly equate to 50% more yield but I would think the potential would be there for it...


All things being equal, three light sources adding up to a given PAR output will always yield more than just one of equivalent output. Strike one.

The relationship between increased irradiance and growth response is one of diminishing gains;

Strike two.

The spectrum of 860W CDM is balanced more for frost than vegetative production. You want leafy greens, or frost? Is that measured in mass? No. Strike three.

It's a decent lamp, it's certainly no miracle under glass.

I'm running exactly the same wattage over exactly the same size, shape and number of plants; in one six plant rack, 5400W of 860W CDM Allstart lamps (five of them, each driven at 1000W plus 80W for the ballast). In the other, 5400W of Cree CXB3590 based COB LED.

NOW we have a big difference in yield, because PARW is DOUBLED, and because the light is much better distributed across the canopy from 96 sources instead of only 5.


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## SoOLED (Aug 2, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> I know you didn't say that, let me say this a little differently... Everyone seems to agree 315w LEC's are equivalent to around 500 watts of HPS. An 860 allstart driven by a low frequency square wave ballast should be roughly equivalent to 3x 315w LEC's. So that would make the 860 driven by a LFSW ballast roughly equivalent to 1500w HPS. So if I am replacing 1000w HPS's with 860 allstarts I should be getting about 50% more usable light, I know that 50% more light doesn't exactly equate to 50% more yield but I would think the potential would be there for it...



I think I'm following how your stacking your stats, but its not like that. three 315's are 945.

TBH, I really hate when people use the _"equivalent"_ because it is hardly ever the case. I would use the word - alternative, to best describe the comparison.

a 600 is still a strong light, I wouldn't bet a 315 would be better, or out yield. but I know each light provides something the other doesn't, and the CMH seems to be a happy medium to large wattage by offering a real spectrum which is getting more important to hobby growers more and more.

if VH1 and MTV were lights, you could draw conclusions in comparison in a better perspective, they both offer the same type of programing, but are very different in what is broadcast. there is no equivalent, only alternative options in the channels.

who watches TV now anyways.....


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## powerslide (Aug 2, 2016)

SoOLED said:


> yes, yes I can: the grower is called _cali crop doc:_ there is 7 eps, he is legit, his room clean AF. you can just watch the last one, but they all have very good points or comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


disappointing he hasn't finished it yet!!


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 3, 2016)

After running the CMH for half a flower run, I can safely say that I'm glad I didn't go with the 630. Two separate 315's would do the trick better. They don't need the PPF at the center, I'd rather get the bleed effect and cover far more space for the extra foot to the sides I'd get with the 630. 

Anyways, I'm sold on them. My next room is going to have 3 of these, with a rail of 3590 COB lighting along each side to thicken out a 4.5x12


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 3, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> That's why said "roughly equivalent", and yes 3x315=945 but the 860 allstart is actually being driven by 1000 watts.


Something to remember, as well. Just because you're pushing more watts through something, doesn't mean that it's scaling in efficacy and efficiency like it would in it's designed range. Like your example of a 1500W equivalent - At a certain point, it's not a 1:1 return. I'm not certain of that point, but it exists.


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## b00n3r (Aug 3, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> when i have a chance i can and will post pictures, and i purchased a bulk order of these bulbs at a convention/expo in Detroit, soon as i seen the tech i jumped on it because i had the same idea myself i had actually seen double ended cmh for fish tanks but bulbs were 50-150 watts max i knew it wouldn't be long before someone else caught on.


Hey bud did you ever get to run these? I just ordered a few and was curious how the par / plant tests went  THANKS !!


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## SoOLED (Aug 3, 2016)

HockeyBeard said:


> After running the CMH for half a flower run, I can safely say that I'm glad I didn't go with the 630. Two separate 315's would do the trick better. They don't need the PPF at the center, I'd rather get the bleed effect and cover far more space for the extra foot to the sides I'd get with the 630.
> 
> Anyways, I'm sold on them. My next room is going to have 3 of these, with a rail of 3590 COB lighting along each side to thicken out a 4.5x12


I agree, but two(3) 630's would be nice too.

I only use the two(315) CMHs mixed with my LED's. I run the 3100k I figure the LEDS for the right, and chm's for the left. spec wise.

ive been looking around my network for a used 630, I kinda have an idea.


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## SoOLED (Aug 4, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> Thank you, I'm aware of that...



...then gets attacked by shark.,


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## THE KONASSURE (Aug 4, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> All things being equal, three light sources adding up to a given PAR output will always yield more than just one of equivalent output. Strike one.
> 
> The relationship between increased irradiance and growth response is one of diminishing gains;
> View attachment 3747361
> ...


Have you tried larger induction tubes yet ? the main benefit over led is there`s less units needed but the down side is a 300-400w induction tube is a large mass of glass atleast 400mm x 400mm so I would guess 600 to 800w would take up almost a meter that`s a huge glass object to get broken, transporting and installing led units is normally easier as they can`t really smash 

I would say led and induction both have a lower fire risk then any type of hid`s do, most people forget to factor that in when choosing their lights....


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## ttystikk (Aug 4, 2016)

THE KONASSURE said:


> Have you tried larger induction tubes yet ? the main benefit over led is there`s less units needed but the down side is a 300-400w induction tube is a large mass of glass atleast 400mm x 400mm so I would guess 600 to 800w would take up almost a meter that`s a huge glass object to get broken, transporting and installing led units is normally easier as they can`t really smash
> 
> I would say led and induction both have a lower fire risk then any type of hid`s do, most people forget to factor that in when choosing their lights....


Induction is interesting, but perhaps a dead end; it's not as efficient as COB LED, and the spectrum isn't better. 

Agreed on the relative safety of HID lighting, they're cracking down on that in multi family dwellings here in Colorado. 

I'm almost all COB LED now, the rest by the end of summer.


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## THE KONASSURE (Aug 4, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Induction is interesting, but perhaps a dead end; it's not as efficient as COB LED, and the spectrum isn't better.
> 
> Agreed on the relative safety of HID lighting, they're cracking down on that in multi family dwellings here in Colorado.
> 
> I'm almost all COB LED now, the rest by the end of summer.



I would say that induction does have it`s place

I mean on some levels

I scored a 300w 5000k induction lamp for £30 the other day

It can replace my 400/600w mh in my veg area, so I`d used at least 100w less and have less heat maybe even sling up 100w of 5000k led too and it`ll still be cooler in there

Some tubes and inducers can be got cheap

and I think induction is a great lamp for anyone going over from tube lights or cfls

I did fit a 70w cmh bulb inside the tube of a 200w 3000k induction lamp, for a 300w ish lamp it can light up a plant nice

but yes I would never pay £100 for a 100w induction lamp, but I do still think they have a place, they need their IR and UV`s tested to see if they can offer tube light fans something to get excited about

I have used 5000k induction tubes to finish up some plants, hoping to develop more amber trics, maybe 3000k would give me a bit more bud, but they get moved to that end for the last 1 to 2 weeks so I doubt there`s a big weight difference, I may finish a 2 clones one under 5000k induction and one under the red heavy leds I have set up and see if there`s a noticeable difference in taste, bud size or smell and buzz

Hmm I have some big bud clones and some trainwreck clones from plants I`m flowering now so I am some what tempted to start them in the middle and send one clone of each to finish up my red end and the others to finish up the blue end

Normally they just go under the reds to start flowering for 6 to 10 weeks and end up under the 5000k induction with about 100 to 150w of red strong led side lights

then they get put in the dark corner for a week or so sometimes cut right away depends what the flowers are like.

but yeah inductions may not be great for large scale flowering but they will soon have a place for the budget grower

Also they are very quiet no fans needed and less heat then any hids, plus due to the nature of induction a lot of electric meters can only get between 20% and %80 of the actually power an induction lamp is using

So there`s that to factor in if your dealing with power meter issues

but yeah induction can veg some nice plants 5000k or 3000k

and 3000k will flower some nice smelling frosty buddy plants, maybe even yield close to what a hps can once your used to them but with less heat

Yes leds are better w per g, but inductions have less parts the only problem with them is the tubes can get smashed.

I like using led lights but cooling them is a pain sometimes and making your own can be a lot of work or you have to pay loads if you want a whole bunch exactly the same

Where as throwing up 10 to 100 300w induction tubes sounds pretty easy, and if anything is going to fail it`s going to be a 300w ballast 4 wires to change it you don`t even need to remove the lamp from the grow

Fixing leds can be a real pain right ?



So yeah don`t count induction out there are times when it will yield you more in the right set up, it could make a grow op viable or affordable over fanless led units as we know they are pretty pricey and sometimes give off more heat then people expect


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## ttystikk (Aug 4, 2016)

Built and installed properly, a COB LED never needs fixed or replaced. 

They're expensive up front, once- and they pay you back in reduced operating costs, efficiency, cooler running and better results from then on. 

I've seen some friend's grows with induction and it didn't look like a game changer. Most tube fans here in the States use T5HO 54W 4' lights in a wide variety of color ranges from deep red through 27% UVB. 

@RM3's setup is the best example of this approach I've seen, it's very effective for his needs. 

That said, my array of CXB3590 3500K chips is absolutely the finest indoor horticultural lighting I've yet had the pleasure of working with.


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 4, 2016)

SoOLED said:


> I agree, but two(3) 630's would be nice too.
> 
> I only use the two(315) CMHs mixed with my LED's. I run the 3100k I figure the LEDS for the right, and chm's for the left. spec wise.
> 
> ive been looking around my network for a used 630, I kinda have an idea.


Maybe, but it'd have to cover a 5x5 solid. I'm afraid the heat created by the extra bulb would start to nullify some of the benefits of the lamp, and you might lose that energy savings to heat and AC demand. Of course, if the output increased significantly, it'd make that a moot point.


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## SoOLED (Aug 4, 2016)

induction lamps are CURSED!!! by the indoor gods, the mere utterance of *induction* can bring Doom!! and Missouri(yes the state) to you, and those around you.

you have been warned, heed this short doctrine of _foreordination.

"induction lamps make people disappear"_


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 4, 2016)

SoOLED said:


> induction lamps are CURSED!!! by the indoor gods, the mere utterance of *induction* can bring Doom!! and Missouri(yes the state) to you, and those around you.
> 
> you have been warned, heed this short doctrine of _foreordination.
> 
> "induction lamps make people disappear"_


Next time on "Are you afraid of the dank?"...


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## §Leigh§ (Aug 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Uh, huh? I don't mean to sound rude, but let's try that again with complete sentences.


Yeah u did, for the one who needs crayons because common sense and connecting the dots, seems to evade them, not being rude!

The cost to run one,yieild after per watt and then doing the other.."side comparison " convinced you of what? That the sky is still blue? Or that gram per watt increased or plants color popped( became more vibrant). 
Broken sentences; incomplete conclusion...dont judge my style, when u werent able to pull the plank from ur eye. Not trying to be rude


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## §Leigh§ (Aug 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Tell ya what; do a full on side by side and hold the watts driven constant; that is, for every 315W of CMH, run as close as you can to 315W of COB LED. I did this and I was convinced.


If i had the capital i would have... then i would be comedic of something


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## Checkit71 (Aug 14, 2016)

So I got to ask since I'm transitioning from my 3x3 space running 2x250watt hps.i will be running a now 4x4. Would running 1 315LEC be good enough? Right now I'm considering either running LEC or 300watts of COB's in my new space.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Aug 14, 2016)

b00n3r said:


> Hey bud did you ever get to run these? I just ordered a few and was curious how the par / plant tests went  THANKS !!


Hey sorry for the late response i meant to reply sooner but was waiting to post some results with photos instead of messages, still not there yet.

I ran the apogee par meter months back after receiving them because i was so excited. Between the 3k &4k 630 cmh vs a standard gavita 600/750 HPS bulb and a solis tek 1000watt 4k. 

I did readings at 300,400,450,500 and maxed out at 600. The par is a little better with the solis tek... not by much the hps & cmh pretty much being the same. I didn't log anything then as i really wanted to see how much cooler and of course the CMH kickin ass in the department. 

I should be back to Logging and blogging in a few weeks. 

How is everything coming along for you.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Aug 14, 2016)

Checkit71 said:


> So I got to ask since I'm transitioning from my 3x3 space running 2x250watt hps.i will be running a now 4x4. Would running 1 315LEC be good enough? Right now I'm considering either running LEC or 300watts of COB's in my new space.


If you can pocket the coin for a Pre built COB fixture i would recommend PLC CXP-250 (2 fixtures) or 1 CXP-420. 

For LEC/CMH ...... Sun System is who you go with unless you wanna go D/E CMH


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## Checkit71 (Aug 14, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> If you can pocket the coin for a Pre built COB fixture i would recommend PLC CXP-250 (2 fixtures) or 1 CXP-420.
> 
> For LEC/CMH ...... Sun System is who you go with unless you wanna go D/E CMH


I was looking at doing the timbers DIY kit its 4x 3590's at 300 watts. If I did these Everyone says you need 8. I just don't know how the buds compare to each other. I always preferred my previous LED buds over my hps but you can't beat the weight.


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Aug 14, 2016)

Checkit71 said:


> I was looking at doing the timbers DIY kit its 4x 3590's at 300 watts. If I did these Everyone says you need 8. I just don't know how the buds compare to each other. I always preferred my previous LED buds over my hps but you can't beat the weight.


Yes 8 would be best if you want to get the weight your looking for. 

Im sure you know COBS are not the same as the LEDs of the past, I'm not sure which your referring to though exactly.


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## Checkit71 (Aug 14, 2016)

LED's of the past , good old red/blues I loves the frost but the weight was crap so I went back to my HID. I was set on COBs till I started researching again and noticed LEC. They looked a lot cheaper so I wanted to get some good comparison between the two before I kick down the cash.


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## SoOLED (Aug 14, 2016)

Checkit71 said:


> LED's of the past , good old red/blues I loves the frost but the weight was crap so I went back to my HID. I was set on COBs till I started researching again and noticed LEC. They looked a lot cheaper so I wanted to get some good comparison between the two before I kick down the cash.


I haven used a single system light solution since SE HPS. why mix your lights:

LED's Red or blue (cause a blood
It just don't matter
Sucker die for your life
With my shotgun scatters)

COB's

CMH

HPS 400w and lower

the new style MH lamps with amazing blues, its like a DE in a SE bulb.

its like mix-n-match.

pick two, and your side VEG fixture


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 15, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> If you can pocket the coin for a Pre built COB fixture i would recommend PLC CXP-250 (2 fixtures) or 1 CXP-420.
> 
> For LEC/CMH ...... Sun System is who you go with unless you wanna go D/E CMH


Why do you say that? It's an attached ballast, so you get more heat in the room. What makes the Sun System better?


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 15, 2016)

SoOLED said:


> \why mix your lights
> 
> \


Plenty of reasons to mix lights. An HPS could benefit from more the blue of a MH, LED Blurple will benefit from warm white from COB, COB can benefit from enhanced reds. CMH is probably the first thing I've studied that provides a great full spectrum +UV with efficient wattage use. I agree that there's no need to mix in veg, but I'm a proponent of mixing in flower, if your heart desires.


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## Checkit71 (Aug 15, 2016)

I'm probably going to buy the LEC and then when I have a bit more cash in feb. add in 4 3590's and have a real nice mix of lights


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 15, 2016)

Checkit71 said:


> I'm probably going to buy the LEC and then when I have a bit more cash in feb. add in 4 3590's and have a real nice mix of lights


My next room is going to be 3 LEC with a 3 COB bar on each side - should do well to cover a 5x12


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## Checkit71 (Aug 15, 2016)

Yah that sounds like it's going have good coverage. Guess mine will be similar 1 LEC and with two 2 cob mini bars in a 4x4


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Aug 15, 2016)

HockeyBeard said:


> Why do you say that? It's an attached ballast, so you get more heat in the room. What makes the Sun System better?


Honestly i just like there build better ... the up to date versions that are hung vertical and very little heat with the connected ballast and daisy chain able. 

Honestly don't own one though because we upgraded to the Double Ended LEC/CMH. Bigger coverage, more power, less heat WIN WIN WIN.


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## HockeyBeard (Aug 15, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> Honestly i just like there build better ... the up to date versions that are hung vertical and very little heat with the connected ballast and daisy chain able.
> 
> Honestly don't own one though because we upgraded to the Double Ended LEC/CMH. Bigger coverage, more power, less heat WIN WIN WIN.


What's the footprint on the DE? What do you run it on? I'm interested, but not sure if it's worth the money. The 315 does 3x3 and a bit more with no problem. I've noticed that the CMH puts off a fair amount of heat, so what's the heat increase between that and the SE? I didn't think the 2 bulb fixtures were worth it at all, but a DE system might catch my attention. What hood are you using?


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Aug 15, 2016)

running the CMH D/E bulbs with a Pro series 750 flex dimmed down.... i spent less on the D/E set up than i would have for the Name Brand most expensive 315 cmh... i get more photons, and more flexibility, 

for the foot print well (2) d/e's are rocking a 5x8 nicely ..... 

IMO 315's only cover a 2.5 x 2.5 unless over lapped or enclosed which i would then say 3 x 3 at best but everyone has different needs.


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## dbkick (Aug 15, 2016)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> running the CMH D/E bulbs with a Pro series 750 flex dimmed down.... i spent less on the D/E set up than i would have for the Name Brand most expensive 315 cmh... i get more photons, and more flexibility,
> 
> for the foot print well (2) d/e's are rocking a 5x8 nicely .....
> 
> IMO 315's only cover a 2.5 x 2.5 unless over lapped or enclosed which i would then say 3 x 3 at best but everyone has different needs.


Curious, if a 315 cmh will only cover 2.5 x 2.5 what does the DE version which is nothing more than two 315 arc tubes in a de package cover?


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## dbkick (Aug 15, 2016)

one 315 in a 4by4 tent and a luxor hood does a decent job although I'm actually running it at 350w.


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## powerslide (Aug 15, 2016)

dbkick said:


> one 315 in a 4by4 tent and a luxor hood does a decent job although I'm actually running it at 350w.


how are you getting more than 315w?


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## dbkick (Aug 15, 2016)

powerslide said:


> how are you getting more than 315w?


Sunplix cmh ballast, dims to 150 , boosts to 350.
Sunplix.com


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## dbkick (Aug 15, 2016)

Also check out the sunplix 860 which runs the allstart 860, dims and boosts to 1kw.


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## Checkit71 (Aug 17, 2016)

Who would you guys recommend for a DE LEC? Hopefully there is a dimmable DE I've got to do some searching


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## genuity (Aug 17, 2016)

If you go back a few pages, you will see a post by db...& just get 2 single 315 lec

His post saved me about 1200..

I was going to get that de 630 with the grow beast sun system..
Now I'm just getting 2 315lec.


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## Checkit71 (Aug 17, 2016)

Damn that's a hell of a savings thanks


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## Sire Killem All (Aug 19, 2016)

Checkit71 said:


> Who would you guys recommend for a DE LEC? Hopefully there is a dimmable DE I've got to do some searching


There is only one d/e right now and is not dimmable


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## HGK420 (Aug 20, 2016)

genuity said:


> If you go back a few pages, you will see a post by db...& just get 2 single 315 lec
> 
> His post saved me about 1200..
> 
> ...


i second this.

I'm running a handful of the 630 doubles right now and they cover a 4x4 area nicely but i get a lot of shadowing around the edges and there is cleary a 2.5x2.5 foot bright spot in the muddle.

from now on il probably run single 315's side by side to cover a 5x4 area with a little gap in between each row to then make 4 lights cover a 5x8 area. same juice but less shadowing due to light sources..

now if ur a total baller and got the ceiling/cooling then id put a 630 in every spot and use 4 to cover a 5x8 area and i would imagine get buds the size of traffic cones lol..

il prolly always use 315's from now on tho.

interesting note, with the more availability of iron free glass I've started looking back into air cooled and the industry seems to be on the same trend. air cooled gavitas are coming. air cooled DE in general is coming. air cooled LEC is coming too. theres at least one out now but it doesn't have glass and its just kinda weird imo but I've seen prototypes being tested on IG of the 630's and the 315 hoods that were air cooled with iron free glass.. imo this is gonna be an amazing set up for tighter spots. i bet you could get away with the 630's air cooled with less then 7 feet of height and still be able to grow 4 foot plants.


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## ganja361 (Aug 24, 2016)

I have 2 Dimlux expert series 630 DE running in a 4x8 tent. I have to say these lights are impressive. They are dimmable with 6 watt options including an overdrive 720 option. The veg penetration is amazing. I'm on the second week of flower now and I've noticed they put on flower quite a bit faster than hps does. Subtle color differences already as well. Can't wait to see what they pull and deliver the news.


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## thccbdhealth (Oct 9, 2016)

Frazer said:


> I have the 630 from Nanolux running. I love it! It's changed the whole structure of my plant. The whole thing, including the leaves are thicker, and more robust. If you're running multiple 630s they work even better. They work a lot like the DE with the interlacing light pattern. You can get good canopy penetration with that since much of the light will be coming in at an angle.
> 
> I've heard about the bigger CMH fixtures too. The lifespan is much shorter making the ROI a bit slower, but the quality will go way up. That can help compensate on price.


I'm considering the nanolux630 as the lighting source for my first medicinal grow in a 4x4 tent, would you recommend this, or no as it is a commercial fixture?
or would I be better to run 2 separate 315's in the 4x4 tent?


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## ttystikk (Nov 18, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> How did the 860 allstart end up working out for you on the LFSW ballast? I know last time we commented back and forth you said you liked what you were seeing, just wondering what your thoughts are after completing a grow with it, thanks..


They're in my veg because the power savings worked to my best advantage there. They seem to be doing well. I still think they won't hold a candle to LED.


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## ganja361 (Nov 18, 2016)

I just finished my 2 630 Dimlux crop a few weeks back. I got 1 lb per light of super bomb flower. I'm 8 days into running a 5 light room of 630s now. The veg power of these lights are ridiculous.


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## ganja361 (Nov 18, 2016)

This is the blue magoo and Oregon diesel (respectively) I got off my last run.


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## ganja361 (Nov 18, 2016)

Thank you sir. They turned out into awesome smoke. Family and friends loved it too. Sharing is caring haha. 



nxsov180db said:


> those look awesome man!


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## ttystikk (Nov 18, 2016)

nxsov180db said:


> Yeah I wouldn't really expect anything to really compete with COB's, I didn't know you were using them for veg only, I've got a lot of COB's going now in my horizonal grows I plant on switching to COB in my vertical grows too but I just can't do it at the moment.. I know I talked about using these 860's with LFSW ballasts before and I recently found a few BadAss Ballasts for about 200/ea was thinking about giving them a go.. Also are their 860 allstarts available at a warmer color temp than 4100k?


Those are good ballasts if you plan to run any 1kW HID lamps, let alone 860W CDM lamps.

That said, I'm a COB-vert; I'm looking to replace all my HID wherever they may be found in my setup.


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## since1991 (Dec 23, 2016)

Cobs are now a little further down the road for me. Ive seen what cmh lamps can do at a fellow growers setup recently. For yield....they cant keep up with equivalent double ended hps...at least the 315 lamps ive seen. But thats only part of the story. Where they really shine is in veg and as supplemental to double ended lamps in the flower rooms. An experienced growers pal of mine (who i haven't seen in a few) recently took me to a spot (his main one) just a couple days ago. He replaced all of his t5 fixtures in his veg room (except the small ones for his cutting rack shelves) with the 315 watt cmh lamps. And WOW is all i can say. His plants in veg are compact...very healthy...nkdes and shoots all over. Very strong stem and root growth. Looks like that perfect early spring day that is familiar to outdoor growing. Just a perfect lamp for veg. The differences over t5 lamps is VERY NOTICEABLE. Dont get me wrong..t5's are a damn fine veg lamp...them 315 watt cmh lamps are jaw dropping. And they dont heat up much more than t5's for what your getting. ( in multiple t5 lamp veg rooms - they do throw off some heat - period). And in flower i seen one 315 cmh for every 2 double ended hps lamps and the quality is much better than tue equivalent wattage of double ended hps alone.Much better trichome coverage (especailly in late flower)...smell...bud density...all of it. So the real deal with them isnt either or. Its using them to supplement the yield giving double ended hps for a better quality crop...and replacing t5's in the veg room with them. Iam about to ditch all my four foot 8 bulb t5's with just 3 315 watt chm lamps. And 4 more in the flower room....to place in between my 8 Gavita 6/750 lamps. I saw it with my own eyes...cmh lamps are damn near perfect for veg and a supplement to hps in flower.


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## Aeroknow (Dec 23, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Cobs are now a little further down the road for me. Ive seen what cmh lamps can do at a fellow growers setup recently. For yield....they cant keep up with equivalent double ended hps...at least the 315 lamps ive seen. But thats only part of the story. Where they really shine is in veg and as supplemental to double ended lamps in the flower rooms. An experienced growers pal of mine (who i haven't seen in a few) recently took me to a spot (his main one) just a couple days ago. He replaced all of his t5 fixtures in his veg room (except the small ones for his cutting rack shelves) with the 315 watt cmh lamps. And WOW is all i can say. His plants in veg are compact...very healthy...nkdes and shoots all over. Very strong stem and root growth. Looks like that perfect early spring day that is familiar to outdoor growing. Just a perfect lamp for veg. The differences over t5 lamps is VERY NOTICEABLE. Dont get me wrong..t5's are a damn fine veg lamp...them 315 watt cmh lamps are jaw dropping. And they dont heat up much more than t5's for what your getting. ( in multiple t5 lamp veg rooms - they do throw off some heat - period). And in flower i seen one 315 cmh for every 2 double ended hps lamps and the quality is much better than tue equivalent wattage of double ended hps alone.Much better trichome coverage (especailly in late flower)...smell...bud density...all of it. So the real deal with them isnt either or. Its using them to supplement the yield giving double ended hps for a better quality crop...and replacing t5's in the veg room with them. Iam about to ditch all my four foot 8 bulb t5's with just 3 315 watt chm lamps. And 4 more in the flower room....to place in between my 8 Gavita 6/750 lamps. I saw it with my own eyes...cmh lamps are damn near perfect for veg and a supplement to hps in flower.


I've replaced all my 600w MH veg lights with 315's. Definately was worth it 
I'm all about the DE's in my bloom rooms too. Well kinda.
I'm currently farting around with 2-- sunlight 630 cmh's. Pretty damn impressed so far. Each one is over a 4x4 tray.
I'm also dabbling with three of the 630w DE cmh bulbs. Put into a DE setup(supposedly doesn't work in actual gavita brand though) and ran at 600w's. So far, i'm liking these things better than the 630w sunlight fixtures, because I can always go back to DE bulbs and turn them up  plus each setup is half the price of those sunlight 630's.

The verdict is not out yet on which one yields more, but a light meter shows them to be just about as bright as each other. And hopefully this DE/cmh bulb catches on and some bigger names start manufacturing them. I'm rocking these:
http://growershouse.com/growers-choice-630w-de-double-ended-cmh-ceramic-mh-lamp-3100k


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 23, 2016)

Never ran DE fixtures, but switched from hps/mh to ceramics and my gpw has been way better w/ ceramic's.. 3 315 watt cmh produce better gpw than 2 600 watt hps.. 945 watts ceramic better than 1200 watts hps hands down!!! switched my veg room from mh to the cmh and i can say veg growth has improved, closer nodes, on both cuttings and seedlings


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## since1991 (Dec 23, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> Never ran DE fixtures, but switched from hps/mh to ceramics and my gpw has been way better w/ ceramic's.. 3 315 watt cmh produce better gpw than 2 600 watt hps.. 945 watts ceramic better than 1200 watts hps hands down!!! switched my veg room from mh to the cmh and i can say veg growth has improved, closer nodes, on both cuttings and seedlings


You say your yield is more with the 945 worth of cmh compared to the 1200 worth of single ended hps? Same strain...same canopy type and what not? No other dramatic variables? If so...that is VERY interesting. Thats a savings of almost 300 watts for the better yield. That would really add up in bigger setups. Looking like single ended (mogul socket) traditional mh and hps bulbs of any wattage are getting left in the dust what with all the new lamp technology out there. Double ended...cmh...cobs...plasma...its definitely a new day for us growers. I knew eventually traditional HID lighting would get surpassed but not so extreme with all the different options....and pretty much all at once.


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## ganja361 (Dec 23, 2016)

I'm 10 days away from finishing a 5 light grow. All the double bulb fixture 630 CMH Dimlux pro. I'll get a minimum of 5 lbs but with how big these colas are it could be closer to 10. I'll post pictures when I get back from the holidays and post weights after they are done. Anyone that says yields don't compare have never run them because I'll never run old technology again. I might stick 2 DE in for mixed spectrum but this yield will determine that.


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Dec 23, 2016)

since1991 said:


> You say your yield is more with the 945 worth of cmh compared to the 1200 worth of single ended hps? Same strain...same canopy type and what not? No other dramatic variables? If so...that is VERY interesting. Thats a savings of almost 300 watts for the better yield. That would really add up in bigger setups. Looking like single ended (mogul socket) traditional mh and hps bulbs of any wattage are getting left in the dust what with all the new lamp technology out there. Double ended...cmh...cobs...plasma...its definitely a new day for us growers. I knew eventually traditional HID lighting would get surpassed but not so extreme with all the different options....and pretty much all at once.



What about temps for 945 CMH versus 1200 HPS? I assume 1200 HPS are two 600s.


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## ganja361 (Dec 23, 2016)

That was week 4 and they have doubled in size.


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## since1991 (Dec 23, 2016)

MMJ Dreaming 99 said:


> What about temps for 945 CMH versus 1200 HPS? I assume 1200 HPS are two 600s.


Good question. I know in the spot i visited recently the all cmh veg room (on an 18-6 photoperiod)....the temps were VERY manageable. About the same as an all t5 veg room...maybe SLIGHTLY more. In the flower room and with 315 watter cmh lamps supplementing Gavita and Nano doubles...i couldnt tell ya. His mini split handled it fine. But i didnt ask him if he had to upgrade his split to accommodate the added cmh fixtures.


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Dec 23, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Good question. I know in the spot i visited recently the all cmh veg room (on an 18-6 photoperiod)....the temps were VERY manageable. About the same as an all t5 veg room...maybe SLIGHTLY more. In the flower room and with 315 watter cmh lamps supplementing Gavita and Nano doubles...i couldnt tell ya. His mini split handled it fine. But i didnt ask him if he had to upgrade his split to accommodate the added cmh fixtures.


Ball park how many lights in 18/6 and how big a room. 

I know a guy with a licensed grow who swears by vertical lamps being much cooler. He was talking parabolics/umbrella 1000 watts with bulbs pointing down. He said much cooler than horizontal bulbs.


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## since1991 (Dec 23, 2016)

MMJ Dreaming 99 said:


> Ball park how many lights in 18/6 and how big a room.
> 
> I know a guy with a licensed grow who swears by vertical lamps being much cooler. He was talking parabolics/umbrella 1000 watts with bulbs pointing down. He said much cooler than horizontal bulbs.


He had six 315 watter cmh fixtures in 13 x 8 room i believe. But he had a nice perimeter walkspace. The 6 lamps covered a homemade corrugated runoff table 9x6. Each cmh covering a 3x3 square. He said he had quite a few 8 and 6 bulb t5's in there along with a few old school halides. Running 1890 watts of cmh in veg now and killing it. I figure i can run 3 or so of them lamps...ditch my t5's....and have an awesome veg room. I run a perpetual setup and perfect veg is key to my op.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 24, 2016)

since1991 said:


> You say your yield is more with the 945 worth of cmh compared to the 1200 worth of single ended hps? Same strain...same canopy type and what not? No other dramatic variables? If so...that is VERY interesting. Thats a savings of almost 300 watts for the better yield. That would really add up in bigger setups. Looking like single ended (mogul socket) traditional mh and hps bulbs of any wattage are getting left in the dust what with all the new lamp technology out there. Double ended...cmh...cobs...plasma...its definitely a new day for us growers. I knew eventually traditional HID lighting would get surpassed but not so extreme with all the different options....and pretty much all at once.


everything the same xept the lamps, i ran hps/mh for 20+ years. i bought the cmh lamps in 2013 and started testing,, i was really impressed, never got better than 1.3 gpw w/ hps,, my first run using 2 315's i hit 1.4 gpw, then i started adding more light 3 315's over a 4x6 flood table, same table and strain i had run hundreds of times w/ 2 600 watt hps's above..till now ive hit 1.56 gpw using 2 315's and 3 315's or 945 watts ive hit 1.62 gpw i try to keep 3ft from canopy to bulb for the first 3 weeks of bloom then drop the distance to 2.5 ft.. 
w/ 2 600 watt hps's i used 6in air cooled hoods and vented the hot air out of the room.. w 3 315's i use open hoods w an exaughst fan set to kick on when it hits 78d f at the ceiling,,,it really never kicks on.. the 315's dont produce much heat maybe the same as a 250watt hps but much less than a 400 or 600 watt hps/mh lamp.. ive now put an intake and exaughst on a timer so every 2 hours it brings in fresh air.. ive never used c02,, but if i did i think the 2 gram per watt may be achievable with ceramics,, my current goal is 1.8gpw and i think its doable i just need to keep tinkering...idk theres always HOPE


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 24, 2016)

MMJ Dreaming 99 said:


> What about temps for 945 CMH versus 1200 HPS? I assume 1200 HPS are two 600s.


yes 2 600's produce a hole lot more heat.. 945 watts w/ open hoods and the ballast is ontop the fixtures and heat is easily managed w/ circulation fans..w hps i had ballasts outside the room and aircooled hoods,,way more heat


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## ganja361 (Dec 24, 2016)

I've got 5 of the 630's in a sealed room and yes they are much cooler than HPS but if I'm not running AC they are still hot. I've been running on 10% overdrive for 4 weeks now and temps will get up to 105 without AC. I run C02 though so the plants don't mind a little heat. Personally I think getting a 315 fixture is a waste of money. Spend the little bit extra for the second bulb. You won't regret it. And if you really want to splurge Dimlux out performs every other brand on the current market.


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## since1991 (Dec 25, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> everything the same xept the lamps, i ran hps/mh for 20+ years. i bought the cmh lamps in 2013 and started testing,, i was really impressed, never got better than 1.3 gpw w/ hps,, my first run using 2 315's i hit 1.4 gpw, then i started adding more light 3 315's over a 4x6 flood table, same table and strain i had run hundreds of times w/ 2 600 watt hps's above..till now ive hit 1.56 gpw using 2 315's and 3 315's or 945 watts ive hit 1.62 gpw i try to keep 3ft from canopy to bulb for the first 3 weeks of bloom then drop the distance to 2.5 ft..
> w/ 2 600 watt hps's i used 6in air cooled hoods and vented the hot air out of the room.. w 3 315's i use open hoods w an exaughst fan set to kick on when it hits 78d f at the ceiling,,,it really never kicks on.. the 315's dont produce much heat maybe the same as a 250watt hps but much less than a 400 or 600 watt hps/mh lamp.. ive now put an intake and exaughst on a timer so every 2 hours it brings in fresh air.. ive never used c02,, but if i did i think the 2 gram per watt may be achievable with ceramics,, my current goal is 1.8gpw and i think its doable i just need to keep tinkering...idk theres always HOPE


Damn son. This is very interesting. I know i would need alot of cmh fixtures. And its the reason i went with Gavita double ended 6/750's (less over all wattage by 20 to 30 % for same or more weight than traditional mogul socket 1000 and 600 watt bulbs). Your saying ditch ALL hps 600 to 1000 watters hps whether si gle or double....ditch the ridiculous air cooled hoods/glass/pain in the ass duct work (which. I did years ago) and can kill it with just a bunch of 315 cmh 'ers? My buddy told me they dont replace doubles but you can use less and the ones you do replace...use the cmh. And your overall wattage would lower but yield and especially quality would go up. I wish knew without investing because i would hate to get a disappointed yield if it werent true. A very exfpensive fuk up. About 4000 watts worth or about 12 to 13 cmh fixtures.


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## since1991 (Dec 25, 2016)

Basically would love to get the same or better yield and quality using 3500 to 4000 watts worth of cmh compared to 4800 watts of double ended hps. Something just doesnt sound right. In my gut....which is usually right...its not jiving. I get a consistent 24 to 30 ounces from my Gavita 6/750's and i almost exclusively just use the 600p watt setting because of my 6.5 height basement rooms.


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## ganja361 (Dec 25, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Damn son. This is very interesting. I know i would need alot of cmh fixtures. And its the reason i went with Gavita double ended 6/750's (less over all wattage by 20 to 30 % for same or more weight than traditional mogul socket 1000 and 600 watt bulbs). Your saying ditch ALL hps 600 to 1000 watters hps whether si gle or double....ditch the ridiculous air cooled hoods/glass/pain in the ass duct work (which. I did years ago) and can kill it with just a bunch of 315 cmh 'ers? My buddy told me they dont replace doubles but you can use less and the ones you do replace...use the cmh. And your overall wattage would lower but yield and especially quality would go up. I wish knew without investing because i would hate to get a disappointed yield if it werent true. A very exfpensive fuk up. About 4000 watts worth or about 12 to 13 cmh fixtures.


Not exactly. You'd only need 4 630 Dimlux pro expert series. 630 CMH is about identical to output of SE 1000 HPS. I run a 630 per 4x4 space and get minimum 1lb per light. I'm hoping to get closer to the 2lb per light this run. Don't waste your money on single 315 fixtures. Dimlux and nanolux make great options. Dimlux has the better ballast and hood.


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## since1991 (Dec 25, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> I've got 5 of the 630's in a sealed room and yes they are much cooler than HPS but if I'm not running AC they are still hot. I've been running on 10% overdrive for 4 weeks now and temps will get up to 105 without AC. I run C02 though so the plants don't mind a little heat. Personally I think getting a 315 fixture is a waste of money. Spend the little bit extra for the second bulb. You won't regret it. And if you really want to splurge Dimlux out performs every other brand on the current market.


Wouldnt it be better to break them 630 watt cmh 2 lamp fixtures in the smaller 315's...all broken up covering about 3x3 each....More point sources of light....more spread/even canopy. Ezpecally when you need 3500 to 4500 watts worth?


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## ganja361 (Dec 25, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Wouldnt it be better to break them 630 watt cmh 2 lamp fixtures in the smaller 315's...all broken up covering about 3x3 each....More point sources of light....more spread/even canopy. Ezpecally when you need 3500 to 4500 watts worth?


Personally I haven't noticed many dead spaces. I'm running 8 in an 8x16 space and getting equal yield to 8000w of SE HPS but much better quality. If I kill this crop like I'm hoping then for fun I'm going to throw in a couple DE or some vertical LEDs for mixed spectrum on the next crop. The next leap in technology is when a company like philips perfects the DE CMH.


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## since1991 (Dec 25, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> Not exactly. You'd only need 4 630 Dimlux pro expert series. 630 CMH is about identical to output of SE 1000 HPS. I run a 630 per 4x4 space and get minimum 1lb per light. I'm hoping to get closer to the 2lb per light this run. Don't waste your money on single 315 fixtures. Dimlux and nanolux make great options. Dimlux has the better ballast and hood.


Oh i see. So the double 630 fixture basically covers a 4x4. I was under the impression that the 315's cover 3x3 . This changes everything. And if i ran a 630 and got nust 16 zips or a 315 and got just 8 or so zips...i wouldnt like that at all. Again something doesnt jive. Have any of you for absolutely postively replaced 1000 watt Gavita or like brand double ended commercial fixtures with 630 to 945 watts of cmh and say the yields and quality far surpass it? Or hell....even the same? Because even if its about equal...its WAY worth it. My inner guy feeling is telling mea 2 to 1 cmh to double ended hps is the way to go. Correct me if iam wrong


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## ganja361 (Dec 25, 2016)

I chop down in 10 days. I'll keep you informed. I personally haven't ran any DE rooms so I can't compare on that. But I want to stagger them and really get a nice spread.


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## since1991 (Dec 25, 2016)

Oh btw....just seen the new Sun Systems catalog at my local shop. Thet go one called "The Beast". Lol. Its a 1000 watt double ended in the middle. One 315 cmh on either side of it. And the Double ended is dimmable down to 600 watta i believe (dont know if your spectrum gets a little wonky doing it though ) I dont really need them bit it seems The Beast fixture would or could easliy replace well over 2000 watts of old school single ended hps. So many damn lightting choices the last few years. Plasma...Induction...Cmh...LED...HID...COB T5'before just a ton that wasnt there just a few years before. Gets confusing to get the right ligjt source to a particular style and setup. Mogul socket single ended HID' s are starting to look like dinosaurs. And not worth it (falling prices of cannabis) to run them when there is a cheaper alternative.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 25, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Damn son. This is very interesting. I know i would need alot of cmh fixtures. And its the reason i went with Gavita double ended 6/750's (less over all wattage by 20 to 30 % for same or more weight than traditional mogul socket 1000 and 600 watt bulbs). Your saying ditch ALL hps 600 to 1000 watters hps whether si gle or double....ditch the ridiculous air cooled hoods/glass/pain in the ass duct work (which. I did years ago) and can kill it with just a bunch of 315 cmh 'ers? My buddy told me they dont replace doubles but you can use less and the ones you do replace...use the cmh. And your overall wattage would lower but yield and especially quality would go up. I wish knew without investing because i would hate to get a disappointed yield if it werent true. A very exfpensive fuk up. About 4000 watts worth or about 12 to 13 cmh fixtures.


ditch traditional hps/mh for ceramic,, but DE i have no experience with so i cant advise either way.. ive heard good and bad on double ended hps,,however i did hear a 1k gavita de is 20%% less efficient than the 315watt lec lamps


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## since1991 (Dec 25, 2016)

I been doing some research last few days. I think i got the skinny now. Using 2 315' (or one 630 lec) for every 600 to 1000 watts worth of double ended HPS is thee ultimate setup apparently. The 2 pair up together perfectly. Your lec's are for the extra blue that really bumps the quality and your double endeds for the fatness and yield. I got some ideas i wanna try out. Visiting my boys nice sized op recently got my gears turning.


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## elkamino (Dec 25, 2016)

since1991 said:


> I been doing some research last few days. I think i got the skinny now. Using 2 315' (or one 630 lec) for every 600 to 1000 watts worth of double ended HPS is thee ultimate setup apparently. The 2 pair up together perfectly. Your lec's are for the extra blue that really bumps the quality and your double endeds for the fatness and yield.


Any of your research links stand out in particular? Thanks!


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## since1991 (Dec 25, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Any of your research links stand out in particular? Thanks!


Not really. Just figured some shit out myself on them new Grow Beast fixtures (two 315 lec's and one 600 double ended hps in the middle) with a light rail....in a certain application i feel as though one could crush it with 1230 watts of combined LEC & HPS de. The key is a light rail with extension kit to 9 feet. The fixtures caught my eye in the new Sunlight Supply catalog i got at my local shop. They looked like they had potential in my eye so i googled it. And of course forum growers just dissed the lamp right off tje bat. So that REALLY got me interested. Come to find out....with my line of thinking....not only are they not bad....they are damn near perfect for a certain setup. The light rail (which i hardly recommend except for very specific applications) being the key.


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## TheChemist77 (Dec 27, 2016)

my opinion is 2 315's are better than a single 630watt fixture, you can spread them out for a larger coverage area, get it closer to canopy, heat is spread more evenly.. just my opinion tho,,im sure there are times or area's that would be better with the 630 like a 4x4 tent,, but then again for me id rather have the option of 2 hoods rather than 1


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## since1991 (Dec 27, 2016)

Just found out that the Sun Systems Grow Beast fixture was designed with the popular 4x8 area or table in mind. And with a 6 foot light rail moving just a little back and forth so all canopy gets the mix of lec and hps de. Iam seriously thinking about getting the whole setup as an experiment aside from my regualr operation. The usual setup with a 4x8 area or table is 2 1000 watters (single ended) or 3 600 watters (single as well). The Grow Beast is just 1230 total...a 315 lec on each side with a 600 watt hps de in the middle (you can put a full on 1000 hps de in there but you would need to raise the fixture so high as to render the lec lamps damn near useless. ) But anyways...iam gonna try it here soon. If i can get 1800 to 2000 watt single ended yields ( 3 to 4 pounds) from 1230 watts of de and lec combined its a no brainer. And the hype is justified with lec and hps de together for state of the art cutting edge lighting. And besides...been wanting to upgrade my tester room. And this would be perfect.


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## pinner420 (Dec 27, 2016)

Trichs came into range quicker and this part of the plant seemed healthier overall. Chopping tomorrow!


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## since1991 (Dec 27, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> You can go this route but it just isn't expensive to DIY your own COB LED setup. The basic parts are less than $300, and the kit mentioned above requires electronics knowledge to properly wire it up so you don't fuck up and smoke the ballast. So there ya go, it's already competitive on an initial cost basis, and there is no denying they're better.
> 
> Really, in 2016 the choice is COB LED first, something else if that cannot be sourced as a distant second.


Cob led is out of most peoples reach...just for the simple fact...we want to grow buds NOW...not dick with sourcing and building out a fancy grow light. Its definitely NOT the first choice for most growers in 2016. Thats my reason anyways. Sounds like a big pain in the ass to be honest. I will wait until they are commercially available at a price i can afford. I started to delve into the whole cob thing and quickly (smart too) backed off. A large majority of growers are thinking like this too. We all know its the mostest and bestest light but ya gotta find the info...source the parts...and build the goddamn thing yourself. Its a whole another geeky hobby if you ask me. And i already got one of those...growing dope.


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## ttystikk (Dec 27, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Cob led is out of most peoples reach...just for the simple fact...we want to grow buds NOW...not dick with sourcing and building out a fancy grow light. Its definitely NOT the first choice for most growers in 2016. Thats my reason anyways. Sounds like a big pain in the ass to be honest. I will wait until they are commercially available at a price i can afford. I started to delve into the whole cob thing and quickly (smart too) backed off. A large majority of growers are thinking like this too. We all know its the mostest and bestest light but ya gotta find the info...source the parts...and build the goddamn thing yourself. Its a whole another geeky hobby if you ask me. And i already got one of those...growing dope.


Here's the flaw in your logic;

2016 IS OVER.

Any of a number of different sources are selling COB LED right here on RIU in kit form, all you do is assemble the parts, and in so doing save a bundle. Having to source all your own shit is the part that's sooooo 2016.


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## ttystikk (Dec 27, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Cob led is out of most peoples reach...just for the simple fact...we want to grow buds NOW...not dick with sourcing and building out a fancy grow light. Its definitely NOT the first choice for most growers in 2016. Thats my reason anyways. Sounds like a big pain in the ass to be honest. I will wait until they are commercially available at a price i can afford. I started to delve into the whole cob thing and quickly (smart too) backed off. A large majority of growers are thinking like this too. We all know its the mostest and bestest light but ya gotta find the info...source the parts...and build the goddamn thing yourself. Its a whole another geeky hobby if you ask me. And i already got one of those...growing dope.


Responding to a different part of your point, I outsourced the building of my lights. It worked for me, in part because I made a sizeable order worth someone's time to assemble and deliver. 

I'm glad I did it because I learned a lot about the process and the lights have made a very significant difference in the quantity AND the quality of the resulting product.


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## ttystikk (Dec 27, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Just found out that the Sun Systems Grow Beast fixture was designed with the popular 4x8 area or table in mind. And with a 6 foot light rail moving just a little back and forth so all canopy gets the mix of lec and hps de. Iam seriously thinking about getting the whole setup as an experiment aside from my regualr operation. The usual setup with a 4x8 area or table is 2 1000 watters (single ended) or 3 600 watters (single as well). The Grow Beast is just 1230 total...a 315 lec on each side with a 600 watt hps de in the middle (you can put a full on 1000 hps de in there but you would need to raise the fixture so high as to render the lec lamps damn near useless. ) But anyways...iam gonna try it here soon. If i can get 1800 to 2000 watt single ended yields ( 3 to 4 pounds) from 1230 watts of de and lec combined its a no brainer. And the hype is justified with lec and hps de together for state of the art cutting edge lighting. And besides...been wanting to upgrade my tester room. And this would be perfect.


So here's your challenge; I've pulled 2lbs from a 4x6' trellis, with only 900W of COB LED. 

To match density of production, you'll need 2.67lb from your 4x8' table, to match Watts/sq ft you'll need 1200W. I think these are very attainable numbers. 

Except that I did it with only 6 sq ft of floor space.


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## ganja361 (Dec 27, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Here's the flaw in your logic;
> 
> 2016 IS OVER.
> 
> Any of a number of different sources are selling COB LED right here on RIU in kit form, all you do is assemble the parts, and in so doing save a bundle. Having to source all your own shit is the part that's sooooo 2016.


Can you point to any of these quality builds because I too don't have the time to delve into another hobby and learning a new skill set at this very time. But id love to supplement my CMHs and DEs with some LED and have the ultimate room and spectrum.


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## since1991 (Dec 27, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> Can you point to any of these quality builds because I too don't have the time to delve into another hobby and learning a new skill set at this very time. But id love to supplement my CMHs and DEs with some LED and have the ultimate room and spectrum.


Iam hip. What and where are these kits? Tools you need if any? Id love to try em out...but iam not getting all involved in schematics and diy buildouts. Dont get me wrong...i like to see less of an electric bill just like the next grower....but i dipped my toe into the forum cob world...for just long enough to get it out and run away. All this talk about bins and heat sinks and percentages and...good god man. The price of dope is falling but i still make good money. Iam fine with double ended and lec lamps for now. Until i see these fancy cobs in the store for 500 or less...i will let yall build away. I dont have the time nor the inclination to build a frikin grow light. I dont care how bad ass they are. I mean...really...are they THAT much better than a couple de 's and a couple lec's you can buy anywhere and slap them up and be growing in hours? I will wait till the stores stock them like all the other lamps.


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## ganja361 (Dec 27, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Iam hip. What and where are these kits? Tools you need if any? Id love to try em out...but iam not getting all involved in schematics and diy buildouts. Dont get me wrong...i like to see less of an electric bill just like the next grower....but i dipped my toe into the forum cob world...for just long enough to get it out and run away. All this talk about bins and heat sinks and percentages and...good god man. The price of dope is falling but i still make good money. Iam fine with double ended and lec lamps for now. Until i see these fancy cobs in the store for 500 or less...i will let yall build away. I dont have the time nor the inclination to build a frikin grow light. I dont care how bad ass they are. I mean...really...are they THAT much better than a couple de 's and a couple lec's you can buy anywhere and slap them up and be growing in hours? I will wait till the stores stock them like all the other lamps.


Yep same here. I work part time and go to school for my doctorate and masters simultaneously. Growing is paying my 210k in school loans so that I can live a legal and frugal life when I get out.


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## since1991 (Dec 27, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> So here's your challenge; I've pulled 2lbs from a 4x6' trellis, with only 900W of COB LED.
> 
> To match density of production, you'll need 2.67lb from your 4x8' table, to match Watts/sq ft you'll need 1200W. I think these are very attainable numbers.
> 
> Except that I did it with only 6 sq ft of floor space.


Ok...heres my challenge..What kit or kits do i need to replace 4 of my Gavita 6/750 flex lamps that i can pull 24 zips of Blue Dream off of the 600 setting on each lamp (and thats a lazy same as it ever was grow). Whats the real world wattage...and how much ac do i need to keep ky canopy around 80 degrees? See what iam saying tty? This is the majority of growers line of thinking. They dont want to get into all that jazz you guys talk in the cob threads. Just simple and to the point. Because everything else just goes over thier heads. It does mine. Seems you have to want to or have a real passion to get into the diy cob world. Most growers could care less and just want the lamp the grows the best and most buds for the least amount of electric bill doing it. All them charts and links and part numbers and percentages of efficiency and all of it....just eludes me.


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## ganja361 (Dec 27, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Ok...heres my challenge..What kit or kits do i need to replace 4 of my Gavita 6/750 flex lamps that i can pull 24 zips of Blue Dream off of the 600 setting on each lamp (and thats a lazy same as it ever was grow). Whats the real world wattage...and how much ac do i need to keep ky canopy around 80 degrees? See what iam saying tty? This is the majority of growers line of thinking. They dont want to get into all that jazz you guys talk in the cob threads. Just simple and to the point. Because everything else just goes over thier heads. It does mine. Seems you have to want to or have a real passion to get into the diy cob world. Most growers could care less and just want the lamp the grows the best and most buds for the least amount of electric bill doing it. All them charts and links and part numbers and percentages of efficiency and all of it....just eludes me.


Have you tried anything else besides gavita? I'm new to DEs and am ready to supplement my LEC room with some. I like to pay the up front cost and just get the best there is. Buds pay for lights in 10 weeks lol. I have friends that only use phantoms.


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## ganja361 (Dec 27, 2016)

Aeroknow said:


> I own 22 of the phantom DE's. A few of the enclosed, but mostly the open ended ones. 4'x6' footprint(awesome if you grow in trays like i do) for each open ended fixture, and 5'x5'ish for the enclosed.
> Cool thing about these phantoms is you can run the ballast remotely. I do that in a few of my rooms where i only have 8' ceilings.
> Only problem i've had with these phantoms, is that after 1.5 yrs with them, i've had 6 of the ballasts die . Three year warranty, but it still sucks.
> The sunAgro bulbs that come with the complete phantom DE setups perform just as well as ushio bulbs that I bought for some of them


Thank you. I'll of course do some of my own research but nothing helps like personal reviews and experience.


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## thccbdhealth (Dec 27, 2016)

I too have been looking at cobs and learningthe configurations but have been reluctant to order components
i was going to grab a 315 but have herd it may not be enough light for my 4x4 
and i have herd a 630 (2-315's) would cause to much heat and too much light in a 4x4 

So now im wondering what's my best bet
im in Canada and having difficulty finding sources for either within canada cob and cmh


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## pinner420 (Dec 28, 2016)

thccbdhealth said:


> I too have been looking at cobs and learningthe configurations but have been reluctant to order components
> i was going to grab a 315 but have herd it may not be enough light for my 4x4
> and i have herd a 630 (2-315's) would cause to much heat and too much light in a 4x4
> 
> ...


Tactically if your going vert. Drop a naked 315 in the center of 4 plants. Use all the bulb and get a bumper crop. If your gonna Scrogg do two plants and get a cob and still get a bumper crop... I'm biased to the first option but style will weigh heavy on this decision. You won't loose either way. As many opinions are out and both techs are solid. Both will get you great meds both have an entry and learning curve and with that space allotment your style may be predicated on budget. I've seen the cob stuff do some pretty amazing things and like a lot of the old timers still a little hesitant to pick up the new hammer... happy growing..


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## since1991 (Dec 28, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> Have you tried anything else besides gavita? I'm new to DEs and am ready to supplement my LEC room with some. I like to pay the up front cost and just get the best there is. Buds pay for lights in 10 weeks lol. I have friends that only use phantoms.


No. But if I had to do it all over again...i would of went with Nanolux. Just for the orientation of the ballast. On my Gavitas i rarely use anything past the 600 setting (Nanolux de only goes to 650 tops I believe) anywAys. Iam working with a 78 inch tall basement. Which is kinda low for any double ended hps but the sixers work out fine. The thousand watters are just too much light. I could dial them down of course but the spectrum isnt ideal when a double ended thousand is dialed down. Hence why Gavita came out with the 6/750 flex.


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## thccbdhealth (Dec 28, 2016)

pinner420 said:


> Tactically if your going vert. Drop a naked 315 in the center of 4 plants. Use all the bulb and get a bumper crop. If your gonna Scrogg do two plants and get a cob and still get a bumper crop... I'm biased to the first option but style will weigh heavy on this decision. You won't loose either way. As many opinions are out and both techs are solid. Both will get you great meds both have an entry and learning curve and with that space allotment your style may be predicated on budget. I've seen the cob stuff do some pretty amazing things and like a lot of the old timers still a little hesitant to pick up the new hammer... happy growing..


In the local hydro shop i could get the gavita 6/750 flex but how Could that be the best option For my 6'6" 4x4

Could you point me in the direction of fixture that would allow for that vertical garden - i was tossing back and forth between the nanolux and the sunsystem, both are vertically hung bulbs but are both in open hoods..
Nanolux use's their own ballast
SunSystem use's the ballast designed by Philip's if im not mistaken...
i was going with nanolux as its cheeper however i was advised to go with SunSystem as its philips ballast-
and ill be running the Phillips bulb either way..
a naked vertical application would be great, im wondering now what that raidious would be from bulb to plants?, Make a cage out of chicken wire to hold plants back off bulb?

Im inclined to try both methods; i can already see watering under this trellis net may become painful, its bad enough haveing to have the plants on the floor, but from what I've read and im dyslexic, guys are saying the net is the way to fill out this 4x4

I think I'd rather have full acess to the plants, could pull them out and onto a table if need be,
maybe Vertically is better suited to me

this would then give me 4 times the space to fill? Im new, but im thinking my needs will leave me aiming for a pound per harvest.


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## pinner420 (Dec 28, 2016)

thccbdhealth said:


> In the local hydro shop i could get the gavita 6/750 flex but how Could that be the best option For my 6'6" 4x4
> 
> Could you point me in the direction of fixture that would allow for that vertical garden - i was tossing back and forth between the nanolux and the sunsystem, both are vertically hung bulbs but are both in open hoods..
> Nanolux use's their own ballast
> ...


http://growershouse.com/prism-lighting-science-315w-ceramic-mh-ballast-120-240v
Get a 25 ft cord set.. gives more options for ballast placement...
Mogul adapter ...
3100k Phillips ... the one they sold me was open rated so specify... I learned to check..
Plug and play....


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## since1991 (Dec 28, 2016)

thccbdhealth said:


> In the local hydro shop i could get the gavita 6/750 flex but how Could that be the best option For my 6'6" 4x4
> 
> Could you point me in the direction of fixture that would allow for that vertical garden - i was tossing back and forth between the nanolux and the sunsystem, both are vertically hung bulbs but are both in open hoods..
> Nanolux use's their own ballast
> ...


Its not the best option if its the only lamp. A good one but Gavitas and the rest of the attached ballast double ended fixtures were meant for commercial grows....using multiples of them. The overlapping and crosslighting is where they excel. And why the ballast is attached and orientated the way it is...less shadow and easier to maintain in a greenhouse...when you have to install and service hundreds of them. In your situation and most home hobby grows i would go with a thousand watt air cooled regular lamp...a couple lec 's from Sun Systems or a 600 watt double ended with remote ballast and hobby type reflector....but i forewarn you....even just one or two of these get HOT. Really hot. And you can be assured yiur going to need supplemental air conditioning...even if yiu think you dont because its winter right now. If yiu plan on growing indoors in a small space...with double ended lamps 365 days a year...plan on installing some kind of air conditioning. Thats why single ended hid lamps with air cooled hoods still have a purpose. Ive seen kids cramming double ended lamps in tents with no a.c. and honestly i dont know how they do it. I do know why though. They "hear" its the best lamp out there and thats only true for some situations. Double ended lamps with attached ballasts are truly meant for commercial applications...high ceilings...and in high numbers. Remote ballast ones (like the giant air cooled hood trend just a couple years ago) is just the hobby industry catering to what hobby home growers think they need.


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## thccbdhealth (Dec 28, 2016)

Growershouse. Com ship to canada from my look threw their checkout process, says available for in store pickup

Thanks guys-no gavita for this tent indeed.
i have a/c in my house... house sits @21 ambiant in winter


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## Alexander Supertramp (Dec 28, 2016)

Has anyone ran this bulb yet? I think I may give it a try. 
http://growershouse.com/growers-choice-630w-de-double-ended-cmh-ceramic-mh-lamp-3k-r-red-enhanced


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## ganja361 (Dec 28, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Has anyone ran this bulb yet? I think I may give it a try.
> http://growershouse.com/growers-choice-630w-de-double-ended-cmh-ceramic-mh-lamp-3k-r-red-enhanced


I've emailed the company and it won't fit in any current CMH fixtures so it was a no go for me.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Dec 28, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> I've emailed the company and it won't fit in any current CMH fixtures so it was a no go for me.


I have a 1000 Avenger DE fixture. All the research I have done shows it will work in it. I just have to dial my Galaxy ballast back to 600.


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## Aeroknow (Dec 28, 2016)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I have a 1000 Avenger DE fixture. All the research I have done shows it will work in it. I just have to dial my Galaxy ballast back to 600.


I have three of them, i posted about them just a few pages back.
My light meter shows them to be just as bright as my sunlight 630's.
Just fired them up a couple weeks ago, so I don't have a complete review yet. So far so good though 

http://rollitup.org/t/all-bs-set-aside-cmh-yields.884946/page-19#post-13231173


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## Alexander Supertramp (Dec 28, 2016)

T


Aeroknow said:


> I have three of them, i posted about them just a few pages back.
> My light meter shows them to be just as bright as my sunlight 630's.
> Just fired them up a couple weeks ago, so I don't have a complete review yet. So far so good though
> 
> http://rollitup.org/t/all-bs-set-aside-cmh-yields.884946/page-19#post-13231173


Thanks for the info Aero. I have been considering two 315s but am not into spending that much money right now. So a 140 buck bulb swap seems the way to go.


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## GroErr (Dec 29, 2016)

thccbdhealth said:


> Growershouse. Com ship to canada from my look threw their checkout process, says available for in store pickup
> 
> Thanks guys-no gavita for this tent indeed.
> i have a/c in my house... house sits @21 ambiant in winter


Growershouse is probably your best bet for the 315's, I've looked around for them in Canada and best price I could get up here was $700 CAD. For COBs there's a company in BC using Cree 3590's with decent pricing, probably even cheaper than DIY kits out of the US.
http://www.bcblondes.com


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## thccbdhealth (Dec 29, 2016)

GroErr said:


> Growershouse is probably your best bet for the 315's, I've looked around for them in Canada and best price I could get up here was $700 CAD. For COBs there's a company in BC using Cree 3590's with decent pricing, probably even cheaper than DIY kits out of the us
> http://www.bcblondes.com


Growers house does not ship to canada from my findings


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## GroErr (Dec 29, 2016)

thccbdhealth said:


> Growers house does not ship to canada from my findings


If they don't now they've stopped, I bought 2 from them there about 6 months apart. Another was https://www.bghydro.com/ I bought a bunch there for my son as they had a better volume deal.


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## ganja361 (Dec 30, 2016)

Here's an update. Week 6. Blue city diesel and blue dream. Vegged and flowered under the same lights their whole lives. I do veg with the 4200k bulb though. 5 630 Dimlux on the Dimlux maxi controller.


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## since1991 (Dec 30, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> Here's an update. Week 6. Blue city diesel and blue dream. Vegged and flowered under the same lights their whole lives. I do veg with the 4200k bulb though. 5 630 Dimlux on the Dimlux maxi controller.


Hey ganja...did you ever use that same room with Hps de lamps? And if so what total wattage did you have? Looks damn nice...any lamp.


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## ganja361 (Dec 30, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Hey ganja...did you ever use that same room with Hps de lamps? And if so what total wattage did you have? Looks damn nice...any lamp.


I haven't. But next crop I plan on putting a row of 3 of them down the middle of the room to see if they really make that much difference in yield. Luckily I have 36000btu so I can play around with that.


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## since1991 (Dec 30, 2016)

So lec lamps whether 315 or 630 fixtures still kick out heat...of course. But would you say in comparable wattage to single ended (non air cooled) or double ended HPS that the heat load is much less?


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## ganja361 (Dec 30, 2016)

since1991 said:


> So lec lamps whether 315 or 630 fixtures still kick out heat...of course. But would you say in comparable wattage to single ended (non air cooled) or double ended HPS that the heat load is much less?


By far. On average a 630 LEC only needs 2200 btu. Gavita claims it's units only need 4000 but it's closer to 5000. You could get away with running a portable AC in a small room for 2 lights. They are no LEDs but still cooler than anything else I've run by a lot. In veg I run them at 60% the room never gets warm. Running the 5 I have now at 10% overdrive and having no problem cranking it down to 50 degrees if I wanted.


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## pinner420 (Dec 30, 2016)

since1991 said:


> So lec lamps whether 315 or 630 fixtures still kick out heat...of course. But would you say in comparable wattage to single ended (non air cooled) or double ended HPS that the heat load is much less?


Keep a couple bigger bulbs around to add heat in the winter. Don't have a laser therm however to the hand I would say by wattage standards a 315 feels half as cool as a 600.


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## ganja361 (Dec 30, 2016)

The really nice thing about ceramics is they are so good at bringing out colors and terpenes you don't have to cool the room to bring the traits out. I ran C02 until week 6 and 85 degrees and I had colas so purple they were turning black. After I turned the gas off I'm running 75 lights on and 65 lights off. It's been getting cold in Portland so even have turn the heat pump on sometimes.


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## since1991 (Dec 30, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> The really nice thing about ceramics is they are so good at bringing out colors and terpenes you don't have to cool the room to bring the traits out. I ran C02 until week 6 and 85 degrees and I had colas so purple they were turning black. After I turned the gas off I'm running 75 lights on and 65 lights off. It's been getting cold in Portland so even have turn the heat pump on sometimes.


Iam in Michigan. Freezing cold outside this time of year. I have a louvered intake that i strictly use for this time of year. I shut off my mini split the whole winter. I thought it crazy to run the room with the split on these months when its 25 degrees or lower outside. Saves me bucks. I have a six inch inline blower hooked to a simple themostat hooked to the louvered duct flap. Keeps it just as cool as the split...virtually no money spent. But anyways...sounds like a bunch of lec 's are going to replace my Gavitas...soon....real soon. It makes so much sense. And really..the whole hps spectrum from the very beginning was meant for fruiting crops in a greenhouse. Where the blues of the sun was plenty and the reds needed supplement. Makes sense that people are seeing improved crop quality totally indoors with lec spectrum. We used hps all these years because thats what we were told first off. All we had second (besides mh). And thats what gave us plump buds. But the whole hps spectrum was never ideal for the only light source.


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## ganja361 (Dec 30, 2016)

since1991 said:


> Iam in Michigan. Freezing cold outside this time of year. I have a louvered intake that i strictly use for this time of year. I shut off my mini split the whole winter. I thought it crazy to run the room with the split on these months when its 25 degrees or lower outside. Saves me bucks. I have a six inch inline blower hooked to a simple themostat hooked to the louvered duct flap. Keeps it just as cool as the split...virtually no money spent.


I would too but I like to keep my room sealed. Plus you have to if you're running c02. Or at least to best of your ability. Unless you like refilling tanks everyday.


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## since1991 (Dec 30, 2016)

ganja361 said:


> I would too but I like to keep my room sealed. Plus you have to if you're running c02. Or at least to best of your ability. Unless you like refilling tanks everyday.


I do use more co2 with the cold air intake in winter...but not by much. The intake louver opens up but sporadically. It drops the temp quick..then closes back up. I lose some co2 but its negligible at best. And worth it to not have the split running..throwing cash to the man every month.


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## Chillums (Jan 11, 2017)

Sorry to revive an old thread, just thought someone might be interested in my experiment. I wanted to know if I could run cmh's on standard high frequency electronic ballasts as there wasn't sufficient information out there pertaining to that.

Background:
-2x3x5
-2x400w hps
-wing reflector
-air cooled glass diy enclosed top
-adjustable ballasts run at 300w(for 315 cmh)

Lights ran without issue for two days. Then on the third day, as I was in the next room watching tv; all lights, tv, stereo all shut off for roughly five seconds before powering back on. I immediately checked the box and found the lights off. Everything else had turned on and worked fine except the lights in the flower box. After checking all breakers, fuses, panels and connections I switched the cmh bulbs for the hps; fired up no problem. The cmh bulbs are intact without any apparent alteration and no breakers blew there having been four between bulbs and main power. So I am inclined to believe the bulbs overheated emitted an EMP temporarily shutting off power to the rest of my house without damaging anything. 
Thoughts?


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## p0opstlnksal0t (Mar 8, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> There's a new unit for sale called the DeVa from Revolution Micro, advertised here on RIU. It's a one piece fixture, designed for DE HPS or MH but it's also a LFSW ballast.


Has anyone used one of these DEva setups yet?


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## Kushman077 (Mar 8, 2017)

ganja361 said:


> Here's an update. Week 6. Blue city diesel and blue dream. Vegged and flowered under the same lights their whole lives. I do veg with the 4200k bulb though. 5 630 Dimlux on the Dimlux maxi controller.


Did you ever get a chance to record your harvest results??


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## ganja361 (Mar 10, 2017)

Kushman077 said:


> Did you ever get a chance to record your harvest results??


I did. I got 4200 grams on 5 lights. Came out to 1.33 gpw.


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## Bad Karma (Mar 10, 2017)

Chillums said:


> Sorry to revive an old thread, just thought someone might be interested in my experiment. I wanted to know if I could run cmh's on standard high frequency electronic ballasts as there wasn't sufficient information out there pertaining to that.
> 
> Background:
> -2x3x5
> ...


I have all square wave ballast LEC's. When there is a black out/brown out/power failure in my neighborhood it takes the lights 20-30 minutes to comeback on line. I'm not sure if it's part of the design of the bulb, or the ballast, but LEC light will not strike when hot, thus the built in cool down period. I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, or not, so I thought it was worth mentioning.


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## ganja361 (Mar 10, 2017)

Bad Karma said:


> I have all square wave ballast LEC's. When there is a black out/brown out/power failure in my neighborhood it takes the lights 20-30 minutes to comeback on line. I'm not sure if it's part of the design of the bulb, or the ballast, but LEC light will not strike when hot, thus the built in cool down period. I wasn't sure if you were aware of that, or not, so I thought it was worth mentioning.


It's the ballast. New technology to save the bulb. That's why the good ballasts simulate a sunrise so to slowly warm the bulb.


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Apr 27, 2017)

jgd4207 said:


> hello my fellow growers. i see evryone is catching on to the de cmh 630w. no you cannot use a regular ballast like the gavita the major reason being that it is a high frequency ballast and can be very dangerous if used with these bulbs. you must use a low frequency ballast. i currently have the real deal double ended cmh 630w 3000k R with the only legit low frequency digital ballast i have the 700w and we are developing the only 1000w cmh ballast but there currently is no bulb for it. they make an 830W cmh but it is not double ended but we will have the de 860 soon. i have the whole system at an incredible price compared to anyone out there who are likely selling you a bullshit ballast. contact me by email if you want to know where to get these beasts. we will be hitting up all the grow shows with these lights starting in july in sanfrancisco. these lights are the real deal with same yield as a gavita 1000w hps using 30% less electricity and up to 40% cooler which means no hot spots for all you garage and basement growers with low cieling!! yes i know its a dream come true thank you thank you. but seriously anyone who wants to grow the best with a full spectrum and not get killed by ur electric bill while being better for the enviornment then you dont want to miss out on these bad boys. and dont get me started on the low frequency ballasts we have the prretiest things youve ever seen. what is low frequency? how about constant power with no spikes and no interference from the outside world, this translates to healthier greener denser more oily plants!!!! have a nice day and dont waste time and reach out to me and dont be fooled by the other brands out there pushing cmh with hf ballast and shittty bulbs. we have the real deal not in stores yet. only private clients throwing up two hundred light rooms!! for more info 305_298-7725


PM me bro.


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## davidcup (Aug 26, 2017)

ganja361 said:


> I did. I got 4200 grams on 5 lights. Came out to 1.33 gpw.


Very good result no? Do you think it can be improved?

Regards


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## 38Fitter (Sep 25, 2017)

So maybe someone can help me out here. I read this whole thread over the weekend and I still am unsure on how to most effectively utilize CMH. 
My flower room is 10x10 and I'm about to invest in all new lamps. I have two 4x4 tables. 
Per table, Should I use (3) 315w 3100k for quality and yield? 
Or go with (2) 315w 4200k and on either side and one 400w HPS in the middle? 
Any other ideas? Thanks everyone.


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## since1991 (Sep 25, 2017)

I would skip the 400 watt hps just for the fact a sixer is only 200 more watts and you get way more and better quality buds. I use to run 4 hundos myself way back in the day. Thought they were awesome but then i stepped up to the bigger wattage fixtures and it was no contest. 400 watt hps lamps have a purpose. Great for vegging and flowering as well if you bud out a bunch of smaller plants in a 3x3 area but for bigger setups...they just arent practical. The pros dont pack a big room with 400's for a reason. Back in the day we used to. Before 600 watters were even out yet. All we had were 400 and 1000 watt single ended bulbs and loud hot magnetic ballasts. And anyways ...blending a cmh with hps together seems to be the way to go. Yield and quality. I know what you mean though. You trying to get the perfect light plan figured out because its a one shot deal and pricey if you have to redo it. Try a sixer of hps and a 315 cmh over each 4x4. Just over 900 watts for each and your splitting the spectrum for the perfect blues and reds as well. Plus your initial buy in for the lamps is less. Packing a room that size full of all 315's is expensive. And for a lamp fixture that is still kinda new with all the forums and growers giving varied results. I was gonna buy 9 to 12 of them myself but changed my plan. Dont forget your air conditioning needs. Got to get the right btu rated unit(s) for the heat load.


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## 38Fitter (Sep 25, 2017)

since1991 said:


> I would skip the 400 watt hps just for the fact a sixer is only 200 more watts and you get way more and better quality buds. I use to run 4 hundos myself way back in the day. Thought they were awesome but then i stepped up to the bigger wattage fixtures and it was no contest. 400 watt hps lamps have a purpose. Great for vegging and flowering as well if you bud out a bunch of smaller plants in a 3x3 area but for bigger setups...they just arent practical. The pros dont pack a big room with 400's for a reason. Back in the day we used to. Before 600 watters were even out yet. All we had were 400 and 1000 watt single ended bulbs and loud hot magnetic ballasts. And anyways ...blending a cmh with hps together seems to be the way to go. Yield and quality. I know what you mean though. You trying to get the perfect light plan figured out because its a one shot deal and pricey if you have to redo it. Try a sixer of hps and a 315 cmh over each 4x4. Just over 900 watts for each and your splitting the spectrum for the perfect blues and reds as well. Plus your initial buy in for the lamps is less. Packing a room that size full of all 315's is expensive. And for a lamp fixture that is still kinda new with all the forums and growers giving varied results. I was gonna buy 9 to 12 of them myself but changed my plan. Dont forget your air conditioning needs. Got to get the right btu rated unit(s) for the heat load.


Right on. Thanks for the advice. I've got some 1k air cooled hps I used to run but I realize it's outdated. 
What temp CMH should I use to supplement - 4200k for the blues? 
And what fixtures should I go with? Verticals for the CMH no hood and an open horizontal for the 600? Any brands you'd recommend? 
Price is not such a big deal, I've got a nice budget as I've been planning this for a few years now. Just finishing the remodel on this new house I bought and I'm ready to start the next project!


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## since1991 (Sep 25, 2017)

38Fitter said:


> Right on. Thanks for the advice. I've got some 1k air cooled hps I used to run but I realize it's outdated.
> What temp CMH should I use to supplement - 4200k for the blues?
> And what fixtures should I go with? Verticals for the CMH no hood and an open horizontal for the 600? Any brands you'd recommend?
> Price is not such a big deal, I've got a nice budget as I've been planning this for a few years now. Just finishing the remodel on this new house I bought and I'm ready to start the next project!


Some might say 1000 watt air cooled hps is outdated but the vast majority of American growers still use them. With double ended hps..you have to have high ceilings and alotof a.c. They are more for bigger commercial warehouses and what not. But if your combining a 600 watt hps woth a 315 cmh..I would go with the more blue Kelvin bulb at 4200k. Vertical for cmh. I like the Sun Systems 315 fixtures. And a horizontal simple bat wing reflector for the hps.


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## 38Fitter (Sep 25, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Some might say 1000 watt air cooled hps is outdated but the vast majority of American growers still use them. With double ended hps..you have to have high ceilings and alotof a.c. They are more for bigger commercial warehouses and what not. But if your combining a 600 watt hps woth a 315 cmh..I would go with the more blue Kelvin bulb at 4200k. Vertical for cmh. I like the Sun Systems 315 fixtures. And a horizontal simple bat wing reflector for the hps.


Thank you. I really appreciate the advice. Seems to be in line with what I was trying to wrap my head around too. Cheers man.


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## Carolina Dream'n (Sep 25, 2017)

38Fitter said:


> So maybe someone can help me out here. I read this whole thread over the weekend and I still am unsure on how to most effectively utilize CMH.
> My flower room is 10x10 and I'm about to invest in all new lamps. I have two 4x4 tables.
> Per table, Should I use (3) 315w 3100k for quality and yield?
> Or go with (2) 315w 4200k and on either side and one 400w HPS in the middle?
> Any other ideas? Thanks everyone.


3x9 canopy down the sides. 6 315s. 3 ft walk way in center. 2 vertical bare bulb 315 in walk way.


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## 38Fitter (Sep 25, 2017)

Carolina Dream'n said:


> 3x9 canopy down the sides. 6 315s. 3 ft walk way in center. 2 vertical bare bulb 315 in walk way.


Thank you, and while I didn't want to hijack the thread, I do appreciate the input as it's another question I wanted to ask.
I'm interested in maximizing my quality and it seems like the CMH will do that, whereas the hps will still give me the big yeild. 
I'd like to go all CMH if you think it's worth it in the long run. 
So you say - (3) 315w Phillips 3200k in a horizontal hood over each 3x9 and (2) 315w 3200k in the walkway to cover the edges?


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Sep 25, 2017)

Carolina Dream'n said:


> 3x9 canopy down the sides. 6 315s. 3 ft walk way in center. 2 vertical bare bulb 315 in walk way.


I would not walk into rooms when CMH's are on. Eyes and skin cancer. CMH are bright and throw off UV. 

Another reason why I might prefer something like QBs is CMH bulbs need to be repalced and are not cheap.


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## TheChemist77 (Sep 26, 2017)

MMJ Dreaming 99 said:


> I would not walk into rooms when CMH's are on. Eyes and skin cancer. CMH are bright and throw off UV.
> 
> Another reason why I might prefer something like QBs is CMH bulbs need to be repalced and are not cheap.


cmh bulobs last for years,, unlike mh and hps were bulbs should be replaced every 6-8 months.. ive been using the same 315 watt master agro 3100k phillips bulbs for almost 4 years now,, no loss in yield,quality, cmh way better than hps,mh or both...


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Sep 26, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> cmh bulobs last for years,, unlike mh and hps were bulbs should be replaced every 6-8 months.. ive been using the same 315 watt master agro 3100k phillips bulbs for almost 4 years now,, no loss in yield,quality, cmh way better than hps,mh or both...


Cool. I did not know that. Thanks bro.;


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## 38Fitter (Sep 26, 2017)

Whe


TheChemist77 said:


> cmh bulobs last for years,, unlike mh and hps were bulbs should be replaced every 6-8 months.. ive been using the same 315 watt master agro 3100k phillips bulbs for almost 4 years now,, no loss in yield,quality, cmh way better than hps,mh or both...


Do you supplement those 3100k with any 4200k for a complete spectrum?


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## since1991 (Sep 26, 2017)

38Fitter said:


> Whe
> 
> Do you supplement those 3100k with any 4200k for a complete spectrum?


Your paying way too much attention to that kelvin rating for those particular fixtures. Either kicks ass in veg or flower. Very similar. Generally the 4200k for veg and 3100k for flower but either will do really well if you do your part. The cmh spectrum as a whole is vastly superior to any HPS for a sun like lamp...improving overall appearance and trichome/terpene development. Combined with HPS in flower your getting bigger buds than cmh alone as well. A good rule to follow..from what I have witnessed..is cmh for overall quality and health of the plant..combined with the fatness that HPS provides. Best of both worlds. But none of this means much if you let your climate (temps/humidity/co2) get out of hand and your starting genetics are whack.


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## 38Fitter (Sep 26, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Your paying way too much attention to that kelvin rating for those particular fixtures. Either kicks ass in veg or flower. Very similar. Generally the 4200k for veg and 3100k for flower but either will do really well if you do your part. The cmh spectrum as a whole is vastly superior to any HPS for a sun like lamp...improving overall appearance and trichome/terpene development. Combined with HPS in flower your getting bigger buds than cmh alone as well. A good rule to follow..from what I have witnessed..is cmh for overall quality and health of the plant..combined with the fatness that HPS provides. Best of both worlds. But none of this means much if you let your climate (temps/humidity/co2) get out of hand and your starting genetics are whack.


Ah, I was under the impression that utilizing the entire spectrum is where the best results come from. Thank you for clearing this up. It's really the CMH tech as a whole that's killing it.


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## MarWan (Sep 26, 2017)

MMJ Dreaming 99 said:


> I would not walk into rooms when CMH's are on. Eyes and skin cancer. CMH are bright and throw off UV.
> 
> Another reason why I might prefer something like QBs is CMH bulbs need to be repalced and are not cheap.


From my experience

I bought a double ended 150w MH that is supposed to be used as security light, and used for vegging my plants and it did ok but I didn't like the light spread. For some reason I decided to remove the glass, as a result my plants started dying and I can feel strange radiation bothering my skin and eyes, so I got rid of the light.

Now I use CMH with no glass in the hoods, and my plants are thriving and happy, and when I get under the lights to work on my plants it feels like working under the sun at 2pm on the month of May.


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Sep 26, 2017)

MarWan said:


> From my experience
> 
> I bought a double ended 150w MH that is supposed to be used as security light, and used for vegging my plants and it did ok but I didn't like the light spread. For some reason I decided to remove the glass, as a result my plants started dying and I can feel strange radiation bothering my skin and eyes, so I got rid of the light.
> 
> Now I use CMH with no glass in the hoods, and my plants are thriving and happy, and when I get under the lights to work on my plants it feels like working under the sun at 2pm on the month of May.


MH is really bad and I hate it. I had two pre-cancerous spots on my skin that took off. Fortunately, I have some stuff that effectovely kills the cancer in 24 hours. 

Be careful with CMH too.


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## 38Fitter (Sep 27, 2017)

MMJ Dreaming 99 said:


> MH is really bad and I hate it. I had two pre-cancerous spots on my skin that took off. Fortunately, I have some stuff that effectovely kills the cancer in 24 hours.
> 
> Be careful with CMH too.


Care to share the formula? I have personal friends who've effectively used whole plants strained through Everclear to shrink tumors small enough to be removed....


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## TheChemist77 (Sep 27, 2017)

i have done lots of cycles using cmh 3100k phillips agro bulbs in both veg and flower. a 4x6ft f&d table.. 2 315's above gets `1.4 gpw,, but 3 315's over table really increases bud size and gets an average of 1.56 gpw ive even got 1.6 on a few..
my last 3 runs i now have over head 2 315 3100k cmh and 2 100 watt go green citizen cobs.. using 3 315's 945 total watts and getting 1.56 gpw,, now 2 315's and 2 100 watt cobs totaling 830 watts and im getting 1.54 gpw average..citizen cobs are also 3100k.. in veg i have 1 315 3100k and 1 100 watt go green citizen cob 4100k.. i have found the bigger the change in kelvins from veg to bloom the larger the stretch,, using the same 3100k bulb in both veg and flower really keeps the stretch to a minimum.. if going by gram per watt the mix of cmh and led kicks ass but if you dont really go by gpw and just want large top buds,, the 3 cmh gets very nice tops..
i plan on doing a run w 4 315's over the table,, i dont know if gpw will get any better than 1.6 gpw but i can tell u bud size will be amazing and uniform..
i grew w/ hps, mh, for 20+ years and i love them, 2 600 hps over my table always got 1 gpw,, 1200 grams,, but using 3 c315watt cmh my gpw is far better and bud size isnt very different.. anybody saying hps gets bigger buds than cmh is off,, top buds directly under the 315 are just as big as buds directly under a 600 watt hps,, only difference is the bud under the cmh is better potency and finishes a few days faster...


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## since1991 (Sep 27, 2017)

Those numbers are awesome. Wow. 1.5 gpw using less than 1000 watts of light? Damn thats great. Thats over 3 frikin pounds and not an hps lamp around. Amazing. Maybe combining COBS with cmh is where its at. I dunno. I do know my grow pals went all cmh..then cmh and hps combined. Numbers went up comnined. But sounds like you got your room dialed like a mo' fo'. Are you gassing co2??? What strain(s) are you running??? Net trellis? Plant count? A 4x6 flood table? Medium? What do you like your pH and ppm at in peak flower? Sorry for all the questions but those numbers are really good. Alot of work isnt it?


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## kermit2692 (Sep 27, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Some might say 1000 watt air cooled hps is outdated but the vast majority of American growers still use them. With double ended hps..you have to have high ceilings and alotof a.c. They are more for bigger commercial warehouses and what not. But if your combining a 600 watt hps woth a 315 cmh..I would go with the more blue Kelvin bulb at 4200k. Vertical for cmh. I like the Sun Systems 315 fixtures. And a horizontal simple bat wing reflector for the hps.


Just meandering through the thread and wondered why you say he would need high ceilings and a big ac to run a double ender??


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## kermit2692 (Sep 27, 2017)

Do the cmh put off alot of heat?! Would i benefit next to a 1000w de with overdrive setting in a 9x5 tent that runs at 85 with co2 if it's left sealed all day..or will i likely start to kick on my exhaust controller too often and lose the co2 too quickly for cost efficiency? .. Coming into winter I'm almost more worried about cold nights than high heat but it seems like it's always a battle one way or another when I'm working with a new set up..


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## TheChemist77 (Sep 28, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Those numbers are awesome. Wow. 1.5 gpw using less than 1000 watts of light? Damn thats great. Thats over 3 frikin pounds and not an hps lamp around. Amazing. Maybe combining COBS with cmh is where its at. I dunno. I do know my grow pals went all cmh..then cmh and hps combined. Numbers went up comnined. But sounds like you got your room dialed like a mo' fo'. Are you gassing co2??? What strain(s) are you running??? Net trellis? Plant count? A 4x6 flood table? Medium? What do you like your pH and ppm at in peak flower? Sorry for all the questions but those numbers are really good. Alot of work isnt it?



no c02, just intake and exaughst set to keep room at 72f my in take is a 6inch inline at 420cfm, exaughst 4 inch inline at 220cfm. they replace the 12x12ft rooms air in like 5 minutes. im running multiple strains now but all testing was done w/ th seeds bubblegum,, then 5 runs w/ cherry bomb,, im popping seeds in hopes of replacing her soon.. but cherry bomb has big buds,even lower buds are big, very easy trim few leaves big calyxs w/ crystals everywhere..4x6ft table, 4x4x4 rock wool medium, screen 2ft above table,scrog keeps plants from falling over. i use maxi series by gh,,
week1-2 1/2 tsp maxi grow, 1/2 tsp maxi bloom per gallon ppm=1,000
week 3-6 1tsp maxi bloom per gallon ppm=1,100
week 6-7 1tsp maxi bloom and 1/4 tsp of koolbloom powder ppm=1,200
then 3-5 days of flush w/ gh kleen. flush really brings out fall colors(bag apeal)
not much work,, i spend an hour a day w my plants,, oh and have a baby song machine on 24 hours a day,7 days a week..in tests plants w music produced over an ounce more than plants in silence..

https://www.rollitup.org/t/chemist77-315-watt-cdl-grow.880895/

check my grow journal


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## TheChemist77 (Sep 28, 2017)

oh as for ph i have a 50 gallon rez,, after nutes are mixed my ph is at 5.6, after 3 days its 5.9 and needs to be topped off w/ water, 3 days after that ph is 6.2, needs to be topped off and ph down to 5.6 or 5.7 again.. i change ther rez every 2 weeks.. ive been testing jacks classic citruc it works well in both veg and bloom, no yellowing, plants look healthy but i have to use lots of ph down,,maxi is easier as its ph balanced for hydroponics... ill use the jacks i have enough for maybe 4 runs,,once its gone ill go back to gh maxi series..
oh jacks use 1/4 tsp per gallon and 1/4 tsp per gallon of potassium sulfate..


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## since1991 (Sep 28, 2017)

Ive used GH Maxi....shit is good stuff. And has everything a plant needs. Your pulling big weight for more than one strain no doubt. Using way less electricity than alot of growers doing it. Imagine monocropping one strain. A proven big fat yielder like Dream and sealing up the room. Using Co2 and an a.c. (you could afford it because it would not have to be a big ac and your running less than 1000 watts.) You would kill it in the numbers department (you already are). But hey...i would be hard pressed to change anything except strains now and then with what your yielding and from the power and work you got into it. Damn nice bro!!!


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## TheChemist77 (Sep 29, 2017)

since1991 said:


> Ive used GH Maxi....shit is good stuff. And has everything a plant needs. Your pulling big weight for more than one strain no doubt. Using way less electricity than alot of growers doing it. Imagine monocropping one strain. A proven big fat yielder like Dream and sealing up the room. Using Co2 and an a.c. (you could afford it because it would not have to be a big ac and your running less than 1000 watts.) You would kill it in the numbers department (you already are). But hey...i would be hard pressed to change anything except strains now and then with what your yielding and from the power and work you got into it. Damn nice bro!!!



i have an ac unit but rarely ever need it,, im in upper mi, even summer temps, and my ligfhts kick on at 5pm-5am, cool nights keep room perfect.. i think i had the ac running maybe a week in mid july..
ive been growing 20+ years never used co2,, a friend uses co2 and hps,, i pull better gpw than he does,,even w c02 hps is hard to get better than 1 gram per watt but ive never tried it,,so what do i know??
i just popped 2 female C99, but i do have HSO blue dream 4 feminized, havnt popped any yet.. ACTUALLY I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STRAINS most are 3-4 years old now. i have budzilla, ive been waiting to try,, ive popped several different strains this year,none have been keepers, i make S1's then toss the mothers..wright now i have 2 different gdp moms,2 white widdow, ultimate purple,dark star, and panama red..i might keep dark star the rest ill toss after making S1,s...
its dissapointing that maybe 1 of 20 seeds is really worth keeping, espeacially when i paid like 10-15 bucks per seed..i refuse to buy cali connection or dj short ive been really screwed 5 cali con= $124,, and not a keeper, dj 5 b.berry=$100 not one even popped.. buying seeds is addictive and seems most are a waste of money


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## since1991 (Sep 30, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> i have an ac unit but rarely ever need it,, im in upper mi, even summer temps, and my ligfhts kick on at 5pm-5am, cool nights keep room perfect.. i think i had the ac running maybe a week in mid july..
> ive been growing 20+ years never used co2,, a friend uses co2 and hps,, i pull better gpw than he does,,even w c02 hps is hard to get better than 1 gram per watt but ive never tried it,,so what do i know??
> i just popped 2 female C99, but i do have HSO blue dream 4 feminized, havnt popped any yet.. ACTUALLY I HAVE HUNDREDS OF STRAINS most are 3-4 years old now. i have budzilla, ive been waiting to try,, ive popped several different strains this year,none have been keepers, i make S1's then toss the mothers..wright now i have 2 different gdp moms,2 white widdow, ultimate purple,dark star, and panama red..i might keep dark star the rest ill toss after making S1,s...
> its dissapointing that maybe 1 of 20 seeds is really worth keeping, espeacially when i paid like 10-15 bucks per seed..i refuse to buy cali connection or dj short ive been really screwed 5 cali con= $124,, and not a keeper, dj 5 b.berry=$100 not one even popped.. buying seeds is addictive and seems most are a waste of money


Seeds are mostly a hustle anymore. There arw some breeders worth the money time amd energy...but those arw the exceptions. I dont really fuk with seeds anymore. Just run cuts from sources...and trade with about 20 gellow growers here in Flint.


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Sep 30, 2017)

38Fitter said:


> Care to share the formula? I have personal friends who've effectively used whole plants strained through Everclear to shrink tumors small enough to be removed....


www.altcancer.com
http://www.altcancer.com/cansema.htm

Their retail store. It ships from Ecuador. 
https://www.alphaomegalabs.com/cansemar-black-topical-salve-22g.html

The product is Cansema Black Tropical Salve. They have a few formulations including regular and deep tissue. I have been using it for maybe 15 years. I have been hit with liquid nitrogen, acid, lasers, and mohs for my shoulder which is a scraper under a local to numb it. The doctor also made me do Efudex when I was young which is a floraicil which is based on flouride which is very corrosive. Women get efudex now for wrinkles. 

Cansema was started by a guy named Greg Caton and his wife. He started in miami. The FDA smashed his lab and arrested him. He was arrested again and went to jail. The wife moved to I think the Bahamas then Ecuador where they are now. 

On the altcancer.com web site go to the (endless) testimonials. Some are pretty rough to look at but these people have saved many people especially people who could not afford to be saved. They have helped people's horses, dogs, donkeys, cats and other animals too. They are angels. You can email them and the wife will respond very fast and is very helpful. 

The great thing about Cansema is if you put it on a spot and it does not react in about 20 minutes, there is no cancer. It does not harm to healthy skin. I had a spot on my shin I was a little worried about. I applied it and there was a small dot a few inches away. The dot "lit up". A dermatologist never would have noticed it. It killed it, was deep and took a while to heal. I bet it could have been killer melanoma. 

From Metal Halide lights I had a spot on my shoulder (always wear a shirt) and on my face that took off. Skin cancer is - basal, squamous then deadly melanoma. My guess is both were squamous. Both would have required MOHs surgery from a dermatologist then a plastic surgeon for the face. This would ahve easily cost $5 K. Cansema deep tissue killed the cancer in about 24 to 36 hours. 

I had to order new deep tissue because my reg Cansema was about 6 years old. It takes about 10 days from Ecuador. While I was waiting, I tried concentrated MMJ CBD paste. It helped a little but not much. Applied Cansema, the cancer was dead in 24 hours. It will be sore sometimes afterwards but take Tylenol or Motrin. . 

Our bodies are amazing because once the cancer or eschar (?) is dead, the healthy skin below starts pushing out the dead cancer. It takes about 10 days and the dead cancer almost pops out. The spot about 1 inch from my nose scared me because it swelled up and was probably pretty deep. After a week it started getting better and 3 to 4 weeks was fine. I used the Medaderm from Wal Mart about $10. Dollar Tree has a scar gel made in Mississippi which is almost a good for $1. 

I would recommend anything they sell. These people are life savers.


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## thccbdhealth (Sep 30, 2017)

If i took my trimmings, and soaked it in everclear 95 like Rick Simpson Oil.
And then evaporated the alcohol.
how would i then take this to make a topical cream for melanoma?


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## MMJ Dreaming 99 (Oct 1, 2017)

thccbdhealth said:


> If i took my trimmings, and soaked it in everclear 95 like Rick Simpson Oil.
> And then evaporated the alcohol.
> how would i then take this to make a topical cream for melanoma?


You can experiment but I would check out the info I posted about about Cansema if you have Melanoma. The cost is about $30. Do not wait or screw around with Melanoma. I am not sure if RSO will do the job. I tried good quality CBD oil/paste on less dangerous squamous cell and it was not helpful. Cansema killed it in a day. 

I did some more research. The US Govt flew to Ecuador and arrested Greg Caton again (2012). It was totally illegal. Unreal. Why? Because he helps people for pennies. The big drug companies do not like competition. Greg and his wife have been helping people worldwide. Go look at their testimonials at altcancer.com web site. They have hundreds over the past 20 to 25 years.


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## ThatSpudGuy (Oct 15, 2017)

Hey guys any ideas on whether this system is any use? 

Thanks

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B071D26L6G/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A25TJCEOKW5IIO


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## acgreenski (Oct 16, 2017)

Anybody try these guys yet?; Cultilux. Can't link since I slack on posts...

Apparently they make/import a true 1000w DE CMH bulb that is more stable than those DE 945w bulbs. Funny that the 1000w lamp they show has only two inner bulbs and yet gets 1000w??


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## ANC (Oct 16, 2017)

Lol, what a name, I bet the first time they fuck up they will be referred to as Cuntilux.


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## NOLAlightguy (Oct 23, 2017)

ANC said:


> Lol, what a name, I bet the first time they fuck up they will be referred to as Cuntilux.


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## NOLAlightguy (Oct 23, 2017)

Yes they do exist. 
True 1000 watt CMH that uses two(2) 500 watt Ceramic balls.
Double jacketed. 
3000 and 4000k
Others CMH bulbs incorporate 315 watt balls.


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## digging (Dec 10, 2017)

Will these 1000 watt de CMH be a game changer ?


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## fn217 (Dec 11, 2017)

digging said:


> Will these 1000 watt de CMH be a game changer ?


If they can provide high enough efficiency with the same or higher PAR output with reduced bulb wear on top of it, then yes, absolutely they will be. 

That being said, if they can't put out the same PPF as a Philips DE HPS 1000w bulb in a Gavita, then no, they simply won't be adopted by commercial growers.


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## Bakersfield (Dec 11, 2017)

NOLAlightguy said:


> Yes they do exist.
> True 1000 watt CMH that uses two(2) 500 watt Ceramic balls.
> Double jacketed.
> 3000 and 4000k
> Others CMH bulbs incorporate 315 watt balls.


Would this bulb operate in a 1000 watt Gavita?
Does anyone know how much these new bulbs are selling for?


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## digging (Dec 11, 2017)

@fn217 when will the verdict be out on these 1000 watt de CMH ? 

I so hope that this is what us CMH fan's have been waiting for


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## Paracelsus (Dec 22, 2017)

febisfebi said:


> CMH is not discontinued, just the old "Retro-White" is gone. but the new "CDM Energy Advantage AllStart" lamps are even more efficient and use only 330w on a 400w mag ballast. and it can be hps or mh ballast with the new allstarts. there is an 860w version that runs on a 1000w mag ballast, but if you look at the spectrum, it is not the same as the 400's and is more suited for a streetlight or soccer field light. It is missing the low blue/UVA that the 400 is rich in. But I have heard good comments even about these in combination with HPS. As far as UVB. your not gonna get much from any bulb on the market except reptile bulbs and other specialty UVB lamps. Any horticultural bulb I have seen that claims to put out UV, if you look at the spectrum it is UVA at best. UVB is between 280 and 315nm. I have never seen a spectral chart that went that low, and UVB is blocked by most glass anyways.
> CMH is more of a supplemental light, that should be used in combination with an HPS to get real results. The resulting spectrum is great for plants, I have heard it can produce amazing results in this combination CMH 400w 4.2k for every 1000w HPS, or if you want to do all CMH use one 4.2k for every 2 3.1k CMH, which has more of a flowering spectrum. but thats a lot of 400w ballasts. your money would better be spent on 4.2k's to go with cheap HPS 1000watters.
> Keep in mind however there are now many different full spectrum bulbs available on the market. the best known, and most expensive to operate is the hortilux blue, but ushio, sunmaster, and solis-tek, and something called U-Light now I am seeing adds for, but they all make a full line of full spectrum bulbs, to be used as SUPPLEMENTAL lights.


Realizing this thread is 2 years plus old I appreciate your knowlege and experience with CMH and wanted to ask @febisfebi if they have developed further opinions on CMH in general, 315 vs 630 DE specifically and best brands of bulbs Thanks to all, this is my first post here


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## frontline (Feb 9, 2018)

I just bought a 315 cmh ballast , growlite it's called , $300 with 3100k Philips bulb and adapter, no hood . I'm going to try veg and last few weeks of flower with it on a flip box . I will be replacing a 600 hps .


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## Go go n chill (Feb 14, 2018)

frontline said:


> I just bought a 315 cmh ballast , growlite it's called , $300 with 3100k Philips bulb and adapter, no hood . I'm going to try veg and last few weeks of flower with it on a flip box . I will be replacing a 600 hps .


I’m tuning in


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## gr865 (Feb 15, 2018)

Although strain dependant, I run two Nanolux 315W in a stacked vertical grow and got 24.5 zips or 686 gram so 1.1+ gpw. That was a Sativa run, G13 Haze. That was a total grow weight of 34.5 zips, the 10 zips were some larf, no fans or sucker leaf, about 4 zips of buds I did not want to trim, sort of spindelly and 3 + zips of one plant, Critical Kush that just did not produce. Used those 10 zips for Cannabis Oil.
Now my last run was an Indica run of Barneys Farm LSD and got only 17 + zips smokable bud, but that was off only a total harvest of 19 zips , but under the gpw target.


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## Go go n chill (Feb 15, 2018)

gr865 said:


> Although strain dependant, I run two Nanolux 315W in a stacked vertical grow and got 24.5 zips or 686 gram so 1.1+ gpw. That was a Sativa run, G13 Haze. That was a total grow weight of 34.5 zips, the 10 zips were some larf, no fans or sucker leaf, about 4 zips of buds I did not want to trim, sort of spindelly and 3 + zips of one plant, Critical Kush that just did not produce. Used those 10 zips for Cannabis Oil.
> Now my last run was an Indica run of Barneys Farm LSD and got only 17 + zips smokable bud, but that was off only a total harvest of 19 zips , but under the gpw target.


Hey man can you show us some pictures of your vertical grow?


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## gwheels (Feb 15, 2018)

I have only run a 550 watt scorpion MCOB and a 315 CMH. I find the yield comparable with either. I am still learning how to dial stuff in so I am not able to compare it but I did get 12 oz of bud and 3 oz of larfy trim out of 3 plants (1 white widow and 2 sour kush, White widow was 6 oz and the other two totalled 6.5).
I have never used a regular light. I will say the 315 works perfect in my 4 x 4. The heat can be handled with my vortex on low. I should have cranked it up though I have a white rhino fox tailing at the end right now (Week 8 is done tomorrow). Canopy management makes the CMH work the best. Something new for me to learn.
I do love my 315. I think it is one of the best entry level lights for the money and the power consumption (and heat management and growth and trichs etc.).

And the buds wow are they frostier.

I had to set the guardian out for the room.


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## gr865 (Feb 15, 2018)

G13 Haze, a few day prior to chop.
   
The plants on the screens and inside the tent.


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## thumper60 (Feb 15, 2018)

gr865 said:


> G13 Haze, a few day prior to chop.
> View attachment 4090275 View attachment 4090276 View attachment 4090278 View attachment 4090280


whats up with the rot dam,thats got couple more weeks bummer


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## gr865 (Feb 15, 2018)

thumper60 said:


> whats up with the rot dam,thats got couple more weeks bummer


That is not rot, it is light burn, taking the plants in and out of the tent with the lights on. Got a couple a light burn tattoos on my bald head too.


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## gwheels (Feb 15, 2018)

I wear proper shades now but I have a tan in the winter.  The good thing is i only have to check my tent once a week so the tan is fading 
Autopots to the rescue.


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## thccbdhealth (Feb 15, 2018)

gwheels said:


> I wear proper shades now but I have a tan in the winter.  The good thing is i only have to check my tent once a week so the tan is fading
> Autopots to the rescue.


How are you finding the auto pots?
Are you noticing any salt build up from the bottom feed only?

Also wondering what your guys thoughts are on the Hortilux 600w Ceramic HPS?


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## gwheels (Feb 15, 2018)

The autopots do not build salt. They also claim to not require a flush but I do flush the last week or two out of the desire to ensure flavor. I LOVE the autopots. With inert media you feed like drain to waste coco. Super simple and I no longer overwater anything ever. But I am a firm believer in hydroto clay pellets for 2 inches in the autopot and then 50 50 coco and perlite. I find it seems to wick the moisture up the best. .

And because of how they work the res is not depleting salts as the plants feed. That is a little different than hydro.

I just think I would over think hydroponic DWS or RWDC or any of it. This mitigates the problem for me.


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## Go go n chill (Feb 15, 2018)

Horse shit, pots have nothing to do w flushing.....


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## Go go n chill (Feb 15, 2018)

I love cloth pots too!


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## gwheels (Feb 15, 2018)

It is an autopot system. The system needs to flush.


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## Bakersfield (Feb 15, 2018)

NOLAlightguy said:


> View attachment 4031683


I'm still waiting for this.
I'm thinking this is pure hype and bullshit. Any thoughts?
I'm holding out for the Nanolux 1000 watt De CMH luminaire, to be released.


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## Go go n chill (Feb 15, 2018)

Bakersfield said:


> I'm still waiting for this.
> I'm thinking this is pure hype and bullshit. Any thoughts?
> I'm holding out for the Nanolux 1000 watt De CMH luminaire, to be released.


 Me too


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## Go go n chill (Feb 15, 2018)

thccbdhealth said:


> How are you finding the auto pots?
> Are you noticing any salt build up from the bottom feed only?
> 
> Also wondering what your guys thoughts are on the Hortilux 600w Ceramic HPS?


 I haven’t found enough reliable information 
The prices are all over the board ya know? With no great data.... big fucking secret


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## gr865 (Feb 15, 2018)

I run Nanolux and to date have had no issues, and not as costly as some.


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## Go go n chill (Feb 15, 2018)

gr865 said:


> I run Nanolux and to date have had no issues, and not as costly as some.


How are the yields? Resin production and strain? Starved for info


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## gwheels (Feb 15, 2018)

My next autopot under a 315 CMH in a 4 x 4 run with 2 trainwreck (not me this time) and a jack herer is going grow journal in 3 weeks. I will post it here too. I feel it will be stellar and I need a whopping 8 oz to hold me to the next grow. 12 is way overkill but i m hoping for 16

I am all about the personal. What I need to keep me and my immediate family from paying. Last round was a whoppping 20 an oz all in. and It was way lower I rounded up and included depreciatio0n over the life of the bulb 20000 hour replacement time on the cmh


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## gr865 (Feb 15, 2018)

Go go n chill said:


> How are the yields? Resin production and strain? Starved for info





gwheels said:


> My next autopot under a 315 CMH in a 4 x 4 run with 2 trainwreck (not me this time) and a jack herer is going grow journal in 3 weeks. I will post it here too. I feel it will be stellar and I need a whopping 8 oz to hold me to the next grow. 12 is way overkill but i m hoping for 16


It is what it is, everyone puts lights as "King", lights are important, no shit, but other factors come into play. Strain, grow method, nute selection, smart nute usage, environment and other nuisances are what makes for a successful grow.
I have had grows with top strains that something invariably will go wrong. From equipment failure, wrong nute mix at the wrong time, stupid mistakes and the like, we only strive to get it right.
Now I am speaking as a hobby grower, grow for my own meds and pleasure. So shit will happen.

My last few grows, three Critical Kush and 2 Blue cheese. I went out of town for a short holiday, came back to plants that were 7 weeks of veg and 5 weeks into 12/12 and were cooked, equipment failure. Could not even make oil from them, so into the compost bin they went. First time use of the 315W was to be a 315W/400W HPS vert grow but seed got lost in the mail, so ended up using two freebie seeds, Super Citrus Haze and on off brand WW. Since I did not have enough plants to do a proper vert, I ran a two plant horizontal with the 315 and a SS400 LED, rotating plants regularly. Pulled 15 zips of smokable bud. Then was the G13 Haze + 1 CK vert grow, CK was fucked, never produced, but I got 24.5 zips smokable bud of the G13 Haze, 1 + GPW. This was followed by this past falls grow of the LSD, 5 plant vert and only turned 17+ of smokable bud. Am in the winter 18 grow now, yield is not expected to be that great because I was not able to get in the veg time. But it is what it is. So for me I grow enough for my needs and if I have leftovers at the next harvest, that leftovers go to a group a Vet's with PTSD. They also get any clones I may have extra and advice on their grows.
As I stated above, everything that happens is based on Strain, LIghting, Method, Your Grow Environment, Nutes and there proper usage. Oh yeah, and grow experience, the more you do something the better you get. 
I love growing my own meds and recreation, it is a soothing hobby for this old man.

GR


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## Go go n chill (Feb 15, 2018)

gr865 said:


> It is what it is, everyone puts lights as "King", lights are important, no shit, but other factors come into play. Strain, grow method, nute selection, smart nute usage, environment and other nuisances are what makes for a successful grow.
> I have had grows with top strains that something invariably will go wrong. From equipment failure, wrong nute mix at the wrong time, stupid mistakes and the like, we only strive to get it right.
> Now I am speaking as a hobby grower, grow for my own meds and pleasure. So shit will happen.
> 
> ...


24oz out of one plant? How long a veg? That was a g13?? I got to try that. I’m still new but learning. I’be fuvked up before so now I’m at the “ just don’t kill them stage” it seems to be working I’ve grow nice buds but not 24 Oz from one girl in a closet


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## gr865 (Feb 15, 2018)

Go go n chill said:


> 24oz out of one plant? How long a veg? That was a g13?? I got to try that. I’m still new but learning. I’be fuvked up before so now I’m at the “ just don’t kill them stage” it seems to be working I’ve grow nice buds but not 24 Oz from one girl in a closet


Look at the pics of my grow, I run a 5 plant vert grow, it was 4 plants that produced that, so 6+ from each plant. If I have wanted to trim it all it would have been around 26 to 27 zips, but I am lazy and used it to make oil.

And I am in a 4x4


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## AbeFroman (Feb 15, 2018)

I'm shooting for 2 lbs with one 630W Sun Systems in a 5x5 area. Not sure if i can pull it off but things are looking good so far. Here they are at 13 days

Here is a link to my journal if anybody wants to see how it goes

https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-sausage-kings-630w-lec-5x5-2lb-challenge.958299/


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## gr865 (Feb 16, 2018)

AbeFroman said:


> I'm shooting for 2 lbs with one 630W Sun Systems in a 5x5 area. Not sure if i can pull it off but things are looking good so far. Here they are at 13 days
> 
> Here is a link to my journal if anybody wants to see how it goes
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-sausage-kings-630w-lec-5x5-2lb-challenge.958299/


Recent pics? Two lbs is very possible in a 5x5 with that light, but probably not till you have your system dialed in. Looking good though.

GR


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## AbeFroman (Feb 16, 2018)

gr865 said:


> Recent pics? Two lbs is very possible in a 5x5 with that light, but probably not till you have your system dialed in. Looking good though.
> 
> GR


I will post an updated picture this weekend. They have gotten considerably larger. I added a trellis and am trying to keep it semi under control. Im hoping the stretch doesnt carry much into next week if at all.


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## AbeFroman (Feb 16, 2018)

gr865 said:


> Recent pics? Two lbs is very possible in a 5x5 with that light, but probably not till you have your system dialed in. Looking good though.
> 
> GR


Here is a picture from today (day 18 of flower)


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## DemonTrich (Feb 18, 2018)




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## Top notch (Apr 23, 2018)

GroErr said:


> We're talking specifically the 315w Philips Elite Agro CMH here, the 630's just use two bulbs per fixture. These bulbs are not MH or even like other CMH bulbs. If you had used one of these I doubt you'd be saying to use them for veg only. You can pull a lb. of dry flowers with one 315w bulb in soil with these and top shelf quality.
> View attachment 3567073


You got that right the sunsystems 315 w Phillips bulb is the best light out there I run 3 daisy chained to 1 plug and they're killing it in a 42"x9' room. Been pulling just a bit over 1lb per light or 3.5 lbs per 3 for over a year with no drop off from bulbs degrading. Line them things up guys you'll be shocked with a room full of tops like this.


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## Top notch (Apr 23, 2018)

AbeFroman said:


> I'm shooting for 2 lbs with one 630W Sun Systems in a 5x5 area. Not sure if i can pull it off but things are looking good so far. Here they are at 13 days
> 
> Here is a link to my journal if anybody wants to see how it goes
> 
> ...


You'll get it no prob! Happy farming!


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## NemoClones (Jul 9, 2018)

Question.. If I only wanted to veg on a 4x8 tray with 2 315w cmh. Would that work? Veg only .


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## coreywebster (Jul 9, 2018)

NemoClones said:


> Question.. If I only wanted to veg on a 4x8 tray with 2 315w cmh. Would that work? Veg only .


Yeah, raise the lights to make sure the whole area is covered.


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## coreywebster (Jul 9, 2018)

AbeFroman said:


> I'm shooting for 2 lbs with one 630W Sun Systems in a 5x5 area. Not sure if i can pull it off but things are looking good so far. Here they are at 13 days
> 
> Here is a link to my journal if anybody wants to see how it goes
> 
> ...


Did you hit your 2lb goal?


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## JohnDee (Aug 14, 2018)

Hi Guys,
Sorry to barge in...and I haven't even read the entire thread yet. I have always been a MH devotee and recently picked up a used 315w LFSW ballast. It has a switch on the side to run the 210 watt bulb.

Never used either the 315 or the 210 but am thinking of going with a 210 watt for use in a 3x3 veg tent. Would that be too intense?
Cheers,
JD


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## 5BY5LEC (Aug 14, 2018)

I think 315 would be perfect for the 3x3. I have two sunsystem 315's and they recommend one lamp per 3x3. Start them 24" away and go from there.


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## JohnDee (Aug 14, 2018)

5BY5LEC said:


> I think 315 would be perfect for the 3x3.


Hey 5By...thanks for the response. I was sort of leaning in that direction already...just needed a nudge. 
JD


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## 5BY5LEC (Aug 14, 2018)

Anytime! They are really great lights. They still put out a little heat but nothing that cannot be easily managed.


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## JohnDee (Aug 14, 2018)

5BY5LEC said:


> Anytime! They are really great lights. They still put out a little heat but nothing that cannot be easily managed.


Hey dude,
While a have a 315 guy online here...mind if I ask you another question? Looking for opinions on mounting. The Greenbeams vertical 315 seems very popular and is quite pricey. Most are horizontal. So that's my question...which orientation is best...or does it matter?
JD


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## 5BY5LEC (Aug 15, 2018)

I cannot really speak to the difference between vertical and horizontal. 
If you were ask me to guess, I would say bulb orientation makes much less of a difference than other factors such as distance and coverage. Just my two cents. Sorry I could not give you a more solid answer.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 15, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Hey dude,
> While a have a 315 guy online here...mind if I ask you another question? Looking for opinions on mounting. The Greenbeams vertical 315 seems very popular and is quite pricey. Most are horizontal. So that's my question...which orientation is best...or does it matter?
> JD



The Phillips 315 LEC was designed with an open vertical reflector in mind. That is why greenbeams and sun systems made the original reflectors that way. They worked with Phillips on it. 

The horizontal reflectors came later. As a band aid for lower ceilings and smaller spaces. It’s a compromise. And they are not meant to be air cooled but that solves problems for growers as well. They are designed to run hotter than a mh. That’s how they get the better spectrum. Hotter burning gasses and low frequency square wave ballast. 

So if you have the space. The highest par is found under the sun systems open vertical reflector at 16” over a 2.5 x 2.5 area. 

This is according to a ton of research I did last year before I bought mine. 

Growers house has good prices and free shipping on some sun systems stuff. 

I use the remote vertical hood and a galaxy cmh dimmable ballast.


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## JohnDee (Aug 15, 2018)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> So if you have the space. The highest par is found under the sun systems open vertical reflector at 16” over a 2.5 x 2.5 area.


MMG,
First...thanks for the very complete response. Just the info I needed. In my veg area (under construction) I'll have over 8' of headroom. So a vertical reflector would fit right in...just not one that's 4' wide! lol

I live in a cool climate so the heat produced is a plus. Saves me heating cost. I'm planning on adding two more 315s to my bloom room...but there, I may have to go horizontal.

Will definitely check out the sun and you even gave me a source for them! Much appreciated.
JD


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 15, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> MMG,
> First...thanks for the very complete response. Just the info I needed. In my veg area (under construction) I'll have over 8' of headroom. So a vertical reflector would fit right in...just not one that's 4' wide! lol
> 
> I live in a cool climate so the heat produced is a plus. Saves me heating cost. I'm planning on adding two more 315s to my bloom room...but there, I may have to go horizontal.
> ...



Very welcome.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 15, 2018)

Here is a pic of my flower room with 2 sun system blockbusters with Hortilux 600w super hps and 1 sun system open vertical remodel reflector with a Phillips 315 3100k.

Figured we all love pics!

 

The blockbusters are about 2’x2’ and the remote LEC is 18”x18” and about 14” tall I think.


By the way. I tested many combinations and each light individually with 3 clone runs each. I even included the 600w Hortilux Blue mh. 

2 hps to one 315 gave me the best results. In my space 1 315 alone is not powerful enough to keep up with the 600 super hps. 

But I had noticed the buds in the overlap were bigger and frostier so I tried all the combinations last year.


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## JohnDee (Aug 15, 2018)

MMG,
Very nice...healthy looking and the bottom ones are budding up nicely. So you use the 315 as a blue light/uv supplement to the HPS. Old school. Been using a mix of HPS and MH since the 80s.

Peaked at your profile. Canoed the boundary waters several times. Lovely up there...but I'm too old to be portaging a 75 pound canoe. I have relatives in the UP. Been a few years since I was up there. I'm a Minnesota native.
Take care and thanks for the pix...
JD


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 15, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> MMG,
> Very nice...healthy looking and the bottom ones are budding up nicely. So you use the 315 as a blue light/uv supplement to the HPS. Old school. Been using a mix of HPS and MH since the 80s.
> 
> Peaked at your profile. Canoed the boundary waters several times. Lovely up there...but I'm too old to be portaging a 75 pound canoe. I have relatives in the UP. Been a few years since I was up there. I'm a Minnesota native.
> ...



I would like to kayak up at picture rocks in the up. 

But I may go to traverse city and play around the sleeping bear dunes first. 

Thanks for the compliment.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 16, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Hi Guys,
> Sorry to barge in...and I haven't even read the entire thread yet. I have always been a MH devotee and recently picked up a used 315w LFSW ballast. It has a switch on the side to run the 210 watt bulb.
> 
> Never used either the 315 or the 210 but am thinking of going with a 210 watt for use in a 3x3 veg tent. Would that be too intense?
> ...


315W is perfect for 3x3.


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## JohnDee (Aug 16, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> 315W is perfect for 3x3.


Thanks...others have said that too. Was considering a 210 watt since I have the ballast but not bulb yet. Just to save some power and lower heat...might a 210 do the job? I know growth would be a little slower...
JD


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 16, 2018)

This is a 4x4 tent with a 400W dimmable CMH grow light.


JohnDee said:


> Thanks...others have said that too. Was considering a 210 watt since I have the ballast but not bulb yet. Just to save some power and lower heat...might a 210 do the job? I know growth would be a little slower...
> JD


Heat is not a problem in the tent if you use 315W CMH.
If you have 210W CMH ballast, you can use the 210W CMH bulb for the veg, but not enough for flower. If you don't have any CMH ballast, you can consider this one. https://www.sunplix.com/product/cmh-315wk-lfsw-knob-dimmable/


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## coreywebster (Aug 16, 2018)

It would work John. I vegged my 4x4 with a 315 in summer months and was more than happy. I obviously wouldn't flower under that though.


JohnDee said:


> Thanks...others have said that too. Was considering a 210 watt since I have the ballast but not bulb yet. Just to save some power and lower heat...might a 210 do the job? I know growth would be a little slower...
> JD


----------



## JohnDee (Aug 16, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> If you have 210W CMH ballast, you can use the 210W CMH bulb for the veg, but not enough for flower.


OK thanks...I don't know why I'm being so indecisive about lighting. I usually just pick something and go with it!

Yes I have one of the little black box...switchable Philips ballasts...and have an LED for flowering...so the 210 (if I go that way) would be just for vegging.



coreywebster said:


> It would work John. I vegged my 4x4 with a 315 in summer months and was more than happy. I obviously wouldn't flower under that though.


Thanks Corey...appreciate the input.
JD


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## hummous (Aug 23, 2018)

since1991 said:


> Good question. I know in the spot i visited recently the all cmh veg room (on an 18-6 photoperiod)....the temps were VERY manageable. About the same as an all t5 veg room...maybe SLIGHTLY more. In the flower room and with 315 watter cmh lamps supplementing Gavita and Nano doubles...i couldnt tell ya. His mini split handled it fine. But i didnt ask him if he had to upgrade his split to accommodate the added cmh fixtures.


1991, reviving this post to possibly get some answers. My flower room is 16’x18’, 7’8” ceilings, sealed, controlled and has a ac unit in need of cooling. I was advised to get the nanolux 315s. One, because they’re cmh and not hps. Two, extremely efficient and effective. Three, I can control timing/wattage via smartphone. I’m worried because I’ve been advised by friends to use 1000w hps to get the yield I want. Not only am I concerned with yield, but also quality and efficiency. I have the capability of running 21-315s or 8-1000s in my room if that gives you an idea of what my setups could be. I’m new to farming but have an experienced partner.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

hummous said:


> 1991, reviving this post to possibly get some answers. My flower room is 16’x18’, 7’8” ceilings, sealed, controlled and has a ac unit in need of cooling. I was advised to get the nanolux 315s. One, because they’re cmh and not hps. Two, extremely efficient and effective. Three, I can control timing/wattage via smartphone. I’m worried because I’ve been advised by friends to use 1000w hps to get the yield I want. Not only am I concerned with yield, but also quality and efficiency. I have the capability of running 21-315s or 8-1000s in my room if that gives you an idea of what my setups could be. I’m new to farming but have an experienced partner.


We have 315W, 630W and 1000W CMH grow lights. Which one should be selected mainly depends on your grow room dimensions.


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## SLAMTHIS (Aug 23, 2018)

1× 315w LEC
Phllips bulb
3x3 tent
6 grows
G13 haze, Green Crack, GG#04
Scrog wall-wall, non-manipulated
100% perlite, 70/30 coco, Soil/Organic
Drain2Waste - Autopot, Manual feed
Skill level : 6/∞
Location: Australia (subtropical)

Total Dry yield (Oz): 12, 9, 9, 10, 0, 9

Inconclusion:
Little difference in yield between 1 plant (9oz) or 5 plants (10oz).. except 1 plant was a pleasure to harvest compared to 5!
Environment/seasons seem to be the largest contributing factor for me. This is most evident with the case of the total loss. Coroners report concluded that all 4 G13 fatalities were a result of inexperience × overconfidence × 8days over 37°c/102°F (no air con) × moving house. Age of deceased: Wk3Flwr


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

Good reflector brings you higher yield.


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## gwheels (Aug 23, 2018)

I am vegging with a 942 but the problem with CMH vs COB and Quantum is the fucking bulbs. The 942 i have the glass jacket got loose on the metal socket when i installed it.

I am not gentle on shit but geeze a 150 dollar phillips bulb that is all loose and goofy feeling. They grow frosty buds but i had bulbs. I am going to switch out to all Quantum boards and strips and cobs and never have to deal with bulbs again.

But that is my 2 cents. Like I said they grow stellar weed.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

Probably you purchased cheap CMH lights?
We sold thousands of CMH lights with Philips 930 and 942 T9, T12 bulbs, didn't find even one loose bulb.
Many of our customers like CNH more than LED. Please see the two screenshots.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

942 bulb works better for both veg and flower than 930 if it is correctly used.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 23, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> 942 bulb works better for both veg and flower than 930 if it is correctly used.



Why? In my experience the 3100k already grows looser and leafier buds. Also prevents a good stretch for max yield. More blue would be counterproductive to yield and bud quality in my opinion. 

My best results were combining it with hps.


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## Flagg420 (Aug 23, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Hey dude,
> While a have a 315 guy online here...mind if I ask you another question? Looking for opinions on mounting. The Greenbeams vertical 315 seems very popular and is quite pricey. Most are horizontal. So that's my question...which orientation is best...or does it matter?
> JD


More important is the bulb type... some are (U) Universal, and can mount anyway. Some bulbs are not approved for horizontal use... (I assume its a matter of strength of the inner parts that get hot while fighting gravity)

Check the printing on the bulb.... if its universal, mount however you please.

If you have the ballast and need a fixture, consider just using one you might have, or can get cheap for a MH/HPS and tossing an adapter on it... worked wonders for me.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0759TVWG9/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Why? In my experience the 3100k already grows looser and leafier buds. Also prevents a good stretch for max yield. More blue would be counterproductive to yield and bud quality in my opinion.
> 
> My best results were combining it with hps.


If you can over power the 942 bulb, you will get better result.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 23, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> If you can over power the 942 bulb, you will get better result.
> View attachment 4185701



What are you saying and trying to show here please?


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## JohnDee (Aug 23, 2018)

Flagg420 said:


> Check the printing on the bulb.... if its universal, mount however you please.
> 
> If you have the ballast and need a fixture, consider just using one you might have, or can get cheap for a MH/HPS and tossing an adapter on it... worked wonders for me.


Thanks Flagg...I appreciate the input. Found a deal on two horizontal reflectors so obviously I'll be sure to get the correct U bulbs for them.
JD


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## gwheels (Aug 23, 2018)

It was a phillips master color. It still works but it bothers me that the glass can move a half inch each direction. I put my 3100 back in with a mix of 4k QB and 3500 timber in the 4 x 4. The girls are loving it

Maybe the puny bulb was not made for my hulk hands or something.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

Th


MichiganMedGrower said:


> What are you saying and trying to show here please?


That is SPD of two different bulbs at different power. You can see the difference. From feedback from our customers, it is still true.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 23, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Th
> 
> That is SPD of two different bulbs at different power. You can see the difference. From feedback from our customers, it is still true.


I see. 

But I will stick to the Phillips 3100 for now. I will have a better feel after I do the run in the 3x3 I just started. 

Used open in my room I was disappointed compared to the 600 Hortilux super hps alongside. 

It was more powerful than a 400 hps though. 

Together they were great. 

But I expect 2-3 feet thick canopy of buds as I grow bushes to stay in plant count. The 315 cant flower as effectively so deep into the canopy.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Hey dude,
> While a have a 315 guy online here...mind if I ask you another question? Looking for opinions on mounting. The Greenbeams vertical 315 seems very popular and is quite pricey. Most are horizontal. So that's my question...which orientation is best...or does it matter?
> JD


Overall, horizontal CMH reflector is better than vertical. The mail reason is that light bouncing many times inside a reflector loses much energy and gives off more heat. Also vertical reflector wastes more vertical space.
The keys to select a good 315W CMH reflector are:
1. Is the reflector correctly designed for 315W CMH bulb?
2. Can the light from the reflector cover a certain area such as 3x3 evenly at a certain height such as 2 feet?
3. Does the reflective material have higher reflective rate with different light (UV, blue, red, etc), not just with red light?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
https://www.sunplix.com/product/cmh-315r-reflector/


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Thanks Flagg...I appreciate the input. Found a deal on two horizontal reflectors so obviously I'll be sure to get the correct U bulbs for them.
> JD


If possible, buy Philips 315W CDM bulb, much higher quality than any others.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 23, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Overall, horizontal CMH reflector is better than vertical. The mail reason is that light bouncing many times inside a reflector loses much energy and gives off more heat. Also vertical reflector wastes more vertical space.
> The keys to select a good 315W CMH reflector are:
> 1. Is the reflector correctly designed for 315W CMH bulb?
> 2. Can the light from the reflector cover a certain area such as 3x3 evenly at a certain height such as 2 feet?
> ...



According to Phillips the bulb is supposed to be mounted open and vertical. 

These reflectors are designed to maximize the relatively low power bulb. 

And according to the university of Utah that setup with the 3100k bulb is the best single light source for full plant growth. 

And growers house shows highest par that way. 

And I wish I had the commercial test I found last year but it is gone with my old phone. It showed highest par under the sun system vertical reflector at 16” over. 2.5’ x2.5’ area. 


All I am hearing from you sir is opinions and customer comments.


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## JohnDee (Aug 23, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Also vertical reflector wastes more vertical space


Thanks Sunplix,
I picked up a couple of the Daystar units (non AC) and they'll be mounted on a light mover. One on each side of an LED I picked up. They're fairly deep but narrow and fit my needs perfectly. They have an internal ventilation system and if needed a flange can be added.



SunPlix CMH said:


> If possible, buy Philips 315W CDM bulb, much higher quality than any others.


Any opinions on the mogul base Philips cdm 315s?
JD


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

JohnDee said:


> Thanks Sunplix,
> I picked up a couple of the Daystar units (non AC) and they'll be mounted on a light mover. One on each side of an LED I picked up. They're fairly deep but narrow and fit my needs perfectly. They have an internal ventilation system and if needed a flange can be added.
> 
> 
> ...


Philips mogul base 315W bulb (ED37) is 4k. I prefer T9, T12.


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## Lordhooha (Aug 23, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Philips mogul base 315W bulb (ED37) is 4k. I prefer T9, T12.


I received my sunplix 630 de 4K last week got everything setup started some seeds yesterday. From testing it’s bright as hell.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 23, 2018)

Lordhooha said:


> I received my sunplix 630 de 4K last week got everything setup started some seeds yesterday. From testing it’s bright as hell.


Thanks brother


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## Lordhooha (Aug 23, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Thanks brother


If all goes well I’ll be getting a couple of those 700’s next.


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## gwheels (Aug 23, 2018)

Use good uv glasses. Cmh is hard on the peepers


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## Lordhooha (Aug 23, 2018)

gwheels said:


> Use good uv glasses. Cmh is hard on the peepers


I keeps a few pairs of method 7’s they should be good i hope lol


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## gwheels (Aug 23, 2018)

Yup. I just mean treat it serious. I feel i am getring tanned with my single 315.when i delarf and top

Running them at 400 is interesting.

And i think the loose glass case has not effected the 942 bulb.

The 3100 is a rockstar start to finish. For the size you have to get fancy to beat it.


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## gwheels (Aug 23, 2018)

Running the 942 at 400 is a complete spectrum. Very interesting.

Problem is i have lights for 4 x 8 and a 4 x 4 tent.

Kijiji. No way. My next house i will rock a 4 plant limit a veg tent and u2 big flower tents. 1 cmh and one quantum.

My problem is i bought another light. Happens a lot.


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## Lordhooha (Aug 23, 2018)

gwheels said:


> Running the 942 at 400 is a complete spectrum. Very interesting.
> 
> Problem is i have lights for 4 x 8 and a 4 x 4 tent.
> 
> ...


it happens a lot I’m always buying stuff the wife hates it lol. I’m running sunplix de 630 with the 4K bulb.


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## Lordhooha (Aug 23, 2018)

It just got setup and is days away from starting . I ran it up yesterday and a few days before it’s bright as hell.


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## gwheels (Aug 23, 2018)

The single.315 in a 4 x 4 got me 15 oz 3 plants 5 week veg. You will love it.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 23, 2018)

gwheels said:


> The single.315 in a 4 x 4 got me 15 oz 3 plants 5 week veg. You will love it.


Those are exactly my results but in a 3x3 open area on my flower room.


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## gwheels (Aug 23, 2018)

It is why i added lights and went critical mass and sour d. I am crushing my PB this round


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 23, 2018)

gwheels said:


> It is why i added lights and went critical mass and sour d. I am crushing my PB this round



I used a known cutting of a g-13/sour diesel cross. 

But honestly I like the results of the super hps better. Plus I fit 4 of those under a 600 and yield 20oz.


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## JohnDee (Aug 25, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Philips mogul base 315W bulb (ED37) is 4k. I prefer T9, T12.


Thanks SunPlix...your comment didn't fall on deaf ears. I agree that the 3100 is preferable for flowering and will take that into consideration.
JD


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## booms111 (Aug 25, 2018)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I used a known cutting of a g-13/sour diesel cross.
> 
> But honestly I like the results of the super hps better. Plus I fit 4 of those under a 600 and yield 20oz.


Head seeds g13/diesel from years ago on icmag? I loved that cross and kept it for many years.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 25, 2018)

booms111 said:


> Head seeds g13/diesel from years ago on icmag? I loved that cross and kept it for many years.



No I used a ch9 Blue Lemon Thai cross.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 28, 2018)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> According to Phillips the bulb is supposed to be mounted open and vertical. Philips has 3 types of 315W bulbs: T9, T12 and ED37. T12 and ED37 are "O" rated, can be installed in open fixture, T9 is not "O" rated and should be installed in an enclosed fixture. All three bulbs can be installed vertically or horizontally. On Philips website page, it says, "Operating Position: UNIVERSAL [ Any or Universal (U)]". Here is the link:
> http://www.lighting.philips.com/main/prof/conventional-lamps-and-tubes/high-intensity-discharge-lamps/ceramic-metal-halide/mastercolor-cdm-t-elite-med-wattage/928601167131_EU/product
> 
> These reflectors are designed to maximize the relatively low power bulb. Could you explain?
> ...


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## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 28, 2018)

All info was found in university of Utah testing. I am sorry I no longer have the links. 

And running bulbs at higher wattage than they call for would completely ruin the whole point of the 315. Efficiency. 

Also regardless of different bulb orientation (different bulbs were produced later after initial hype) the vertical open fixture was designed specifically for the Phillips 315 cmh. Sun system and cycloptics both consulted with Phillips on design. 

And I meant to match Phillips specs for max par the company I mentioned found it was really at 16” and only 2.5x2.5 area. 

My testing confirms plants struggle at 3’ edges in an open room. I suspect a 3x3 tent with reflective sides will help with that. 

And I am doing a run in a 3x3 with the Phillips bulb in the sun system reflector now. 

Seems plenty jumped on the bandwagon after the hype set in with a bunch of off brand cmh products. 

I dont trust companies that do that.


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## SunPlix CMH (Aug 28, 2018)

Anyone who is interested to see grow photos from our customers please check below link. 
https://www.instagram.com/sunplix_cmh/


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## gwheels (Aug 28, 2018)

I think the 315 is probably the best 3 x 3 tent light every developed. For efficiency and yield in the space for personal use. With a 4 inch profilter or canfilter it is smell free and will fill the space easy. And tower fans are the shit.

I switched back to the 3100 because i am neurotic about the slightly loose glass shield. The critical mass are going bonkers. The SD are not so much. But it can be pheno and weirdness so I will top till i fill the space and let it flower.


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## genuity (Aug 29, 2018)

3x3 canopy, No loss on the sides 
 
Open room,was ran at 220 the first few weeks of 12/12.
9 1gal pots,around 1.5 oz a pot.
942 bulb.

Definitely one of the best lights out right now,but it's just a light,you still have to grow right..


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## SunPlix CMH (Sep 18, 2018)

Photos from our customer.
He got 22 ounces dry from 2 plants in a 3x3 tent under 1 SunPlix 315W light.


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## thccbdhealth (Sep 19, 2018)




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## Lordhooha (Sep 19, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Photos from our customer.
> He got 22 ounces dry from 2 plants in a 3x3 tent under 1 SunPlix 315W light.


Just vegging my babies then swapping out for my 630 I got for flower. The 630 in my 8x8 at 5 1/2 to 6 ft up was too much light at the stage they were at. However they should rock though when it goes back in for flowering. I'll have to grab up a 315from you here soon for vegging purposes.


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## SunPlix CMH (Sep 19, 2018)

Lordhooha said:


> Just vegging my babies then swapping out for my 630 I got for flower. The 630 in my 8x8 at 5 1/2 to 6 ft up was too much light at the stage they were at. However they should rock though when it goes back in for flowering. I'll have to grab up a 315from you here soon for vegging purposes.


Some lights are on sale on our website.
https://www.sunplix.com/product-category/fixtures/


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## Lordhooha (Sep 19, 2018)

SunPlix CMH said:


> Some lights are on sale on our website.
> https://www.sunplix.com/product-category/fixtures/


I’m happy so far with the 630 de I got from you and the customer service was top notch!


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## Nieto (Sep 20, 2018)

What kind of distance from plants to aim for with a 315W?


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## SunPlix CMH (Sep 24, 2018)

Nieto said:


> What kind of distance from plants to aim for with a 315W?


1.5 feet.


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## Deltagreen (Sep 24, 2018)

How about a 630w dual 315 bulbs setup


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## SunPlix CMH (Sep 28, 2018)

Deltagreen said:


> How about a 630w dual 315 bulbs setup


Same


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## doggeneration (Dec 15, 2018)

Here is a yield report from a single 315 CMH from sunsystem, 3100k bulb from philips. 

First grow, 3 plants including a stunted auto northern light from Nirvana : 17 oz.
Second grow, 4 plants, 2 Gold Glue and 2 Alien vs Triangle by Mephisto: 13 oz. 

all grown in 3 gal fabric pots in coco, a+b, calmag and PK 13/14.

Food for thought.


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## Go go n chill (Dec 15, 2018)

doggeneration said:


> Here is a yield report from a single 315 CMH from sunsystem, 3100k bulb from philips.
> 
> First grow, 3 plants including a stunted auto northern light from Nirvana : 17 oz.
> Second grow, 4 plants, 2 Gold Glue and 2 Alien vs Triangle by Mephisto: 13 oz.
> ...


Pics?


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## doggeneration (Dec 15, 2018)

Go go n chill said:


> Pics?


sure just need to upload them.


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## Go go n chill (Dec 15, 2018)

doggeneration said:


> sure just need to upload them.


Sweet


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## Go go n chill (Dec 15, 2018)

We all need to remember,... yields can be strain based .


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## doggeneration (Dec 15, 2018)

Have a look. First photo is a canopy shot with two in front being alien vs triangle. Next photos are two gold glue. Currently starting mephisto 2 x fantasmo express and 2 x hubbabubbasmelloscope.


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## Go go n chill (Dec 15, 2018)

doggeneration said:


> Have a look. First photo is a canopy shot with two in front being alien vs triangle. Next photos are two gold glue. Currently starting mephisto 2 x fantasmo express and 2 x hubbabubbasmelloscope.


Very nice


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## Booyah! (Dec 16, 2018)

doggeneration said:


> Have a look. First photo is a canopy shot with two in front being alien vs triangle. Next photos are two gold glue. Currently starting mephisto 2 x fantasmo express and 2 x hubbabubbasmelloscope.


Very nice. Did you ever run an HPS in the same environment?


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## doggeneration (Dec 16, 2018)

Hah no never. These were my first two grows ever. However I am upgrading to a 4x4 and I just ordered 2 x qb96 elite v2 from hlg along with a driver : hlg 320-54a. I was thinking those 2 perhaps with a 315 cmh in 4x4.


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## doggeneration (Dec 16, 2018)

You wouldn't believe my light progression.. : 4x3 feet t5ho,mars 400 blurple, 315 cmh and now hlg QB96 elite v2. Skipped the hps/mh entirely! Electricity where I am is nearly 32c/kwh...


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## Booyah! (Dec 16, 2018)

Ok nice! how are you liking the quantums compared to the CHMs so far?


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## doggeneration (Dec 16, 2018)

Booyah! said:


> Ok nice! how are you liking the quantums compared to the CHMs so far?


Let you know in a few weeks


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## Booyah! (Dec 16, 2018)

Mixed would be great I'm sure. I was thinking going with a couple COB single lights to supplement the CMH


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## Go go n chill (Dec 16, 2018)

Not quite that where I live


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## Booyah! (Dec 16, 2018)

I'm liking how this 315 vertically oriented vegges but am not sure if I should try flowering with it or jumping to a 630 first. This is the flowering bulb and it's very white. I'm nervous it wouldn't have enough red.


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## doggeneration (Dec 16, 2018)

Booyah! said:


> I'm liking how this 315 vertically oriented vegges but am not sure if I should try flowering with it or jumping to a 630 first. This is the flowering bulb and it's very white. I'm nervous it wouldn't have enough red.


I vegged and flowered with single 315 and 3100k bulb and it worked great! What's your set up?


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## Booyah! (Dec 16, 2018)

Pretty simple. 6in Vortex intake at floor level toned back on a potometer. Carbon filter and 6 Vortex exhaust. 1 light organic Soil in a 20 gallon fabric pot. Just got watered a day ago so shooting new growth.


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## Smithrunion530 (Dec 5, 2019)

Detroit J420 said:


> a cmh should only be used like, inbetween goin from veg to bloom for a week , say your runnen 18/6 mh drop down to 16/8 for a week before 12/12 under just hps, plants get darker green and harden off better before the intense hps your bought to hit em with, uvb lighting in nature is highest in summer (veg) not bloom, (more natural high following nature) i tried vegging with cmh but the particular strain and cut i run kicks out way to many hairs in veg, my cut needs strictly white light in veg even leds fuck em up,


You're very wrong. I'm flowering under one 315 watt nanolux cmh with a phillips elite agro 3100k bulb and my plants absolutely love it. Top colas the size of water bottles with 2 weeks left to go still. Covered in a sea of trichomes. They honestly look better than a buddies 1000w hps plants no bs


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## diggs99 (Dec 5, 2019)

Cant speak for yield per se, only grew a few smaller plants, but quality was straight up fire under the 315 cmh(3100k phillips)


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## Gond00s (Dec 5, 2019)

Imo I would think 600 watts of cmh would beat 600 of hps


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## Mullalulla (Dec 6, 2019)

I took 63 oz's off 7 plants under 6 vivosun 315 cmh's with phillips 3100k bulbs using NFTG nutes.

CMH DAY 56

Depending on strain, cmh yields just fine.


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## kickinmule (Mar 11, 2020)

Merlin34 said:


> Well, my big grow is just getting filled up so I don't have yield info from mine. But we have a smaller grow and have been doing side by sides, HPS 1000s vs the 315s. The 1000s have been yielding more on the same square footage of floor space, but it's real close. The grower there (who I don't think is using the 315s right... His are way to close) is pulling more than an elbow a 315. Looking at my plants now that are 4 weeks in I'm positive I'm going to crush his numbers. The one thing the side by side has deffinatly told us is that we see a 20-30% increase in THC with the 315s when running the same strains under both sets, HPS and 315s.
> 
> Colorado


Hi there I am replying with regard to this older post as I am only now considering the switch to CMH. Where have I been? Do you feel still feel that the switch to cmh is a good idea? I was planning on using a Philips Master 3100 bulb. Thanks


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## Chip Green (Mar 11, 2020)

A single 315cmh will cover nearly 9 square feet adequately, hanging at say 20"...
The horizontal hoods, will throw a rectangular footprint, vs the vertical being more square-ish.
Don't count on it replacing much higher wattage output HID systems.
I own several 315W units, they produce fantastic results, when used within their capability.


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## mr. childs (Mar 11, 2020)

Chip Green said:


> A single 315cmh will cover nearly 9 square feet adequately, hanging at say 20"...
> The horizontal hoods, will throw a rectangular footprint, vs the vertical being more square-ish.
> Don't count on it replacing much higher wattage output HID systems.
> I own several 315W units, they produce fantastic results, when used within their capability.


a 630 cmh could cover 16sq ft if hung high enough ?


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## kickinmule (Mar 12, 2020)

Chip Green said:


> A single 315cmh will cover nearly 9 square feet adequately, hanging at say 20"...
> The horizontal hoods, will throw a rectangular footprint, vs the vertical being more square-ish.
> Don't count on it replacing much higher wattage output HID systems.
> I own several 315W units, they produce fantastic results, when used within their capability.


Thanks very much for your your reply. Yeah, i’m not naive enough to believe in miracles so when I hear claims of a pound per 315 watt unit I am skeptical. I am thinking three plants under 1 square unit with the light 20 inches above the top. Would an expectation of 3-3 1/2 oz per plant be realistic using a 3100k bulb throughout. Thanks again


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## Grassizgreener (Mar 12, 2020)

630’s in a 3x3 will yield 2# ez if done right, I’m doing 3 630’s in 3x9 and pulling over 8p’s.


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## FentonsBalls (May 8, 2020)

Bullshit


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## TintEastwood (May 8, 2020)

CMH can be fun and rewarding.
I did a couple runs in this thread. 






Seven Sisters


How do you like those [air] manifolds for use with irrigation. I found several in a tote the other day, hah. Do you have to do much evening out of the flow, or are they pretty much all fully open and more or less even? Thanks.



www.rollitup.org


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## Bakersfield (May 8, 2020)

Grassizgreener said:


> 630’s in a 3x3 will yield 2# ez if done right, I’m doing 3 630’s in 3x9 and pulling over 8p’s.
> 
> View attachment 4503116View attachment 4503118


That's 4.44 oz per square foot.
Do you have any room pics before harvest?


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## Grassizgreener (May 9, 2020)

Day 24
Other room testing side led lighting 2050 watts total (3)630s (4)40w leds,will definitely get over 9 p’s if not more.. no lollipop was done, stacked starting from base


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## Bakersfield (May 9, 2020)

Grassizgreener said:


> View attachment 4560193Day 24
> Other room testing side led lighting 2050 watts total (3)630s (4)40w leds,will definitely get over 9 p’s if not more.. no lollipop was done, stacked starting from base


Looks nice and proper, but
Do you have any pics closer to harvest?
I'm looking for some actual cola shots as well.


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## Grassizgreener (May 9, 2020)

Believe these was at day 48-50


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## Bakersfield (May 9, 2020)

Grassizgreener said:


> Believe these was at day 48-50 View attachment 4560213View attachment 4560214View attachment 4560215View attachment 4560216


Thank you for obliging me.
I think your numbers are crazy!
I'm not trying to criticize, because your garden looks good but
Your buds appear to be too small to give those yields


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## Grassizgreener (May 9, 2020)

No worries my man, bags don’t lie at the end of my harvests.. just sharing info, all I did was size down a commercial grow into a workable space and replicate their methods, plants do the rest.
I would show the chop day photo but it’s a ugly site, just a flopping mess


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## Boatguy (May 9, 2020)

Bakersfield said:


> That's 4.44 oz per square foot.
> Do you have any room pics before harvest?


Most jammed grow i have had, i wound up with a measly 40g per square foot dry. I can not imagine what 120g per square would even look like.


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## Bakersfield (May 9, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> Most jammed grow i have had, i wound up with a measly 40g per square foot dry. I can not imagine what 120g per square would even look like.
> View attachment 4560331


That's looking nice!


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## Humboldtcalikidd (May 9, 2020)

I think any light given to any 1 grower is going to be different all the way across!


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## Grassizgreener (May 9, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> Most jammed grow i have had, i wound up with a measly 40g per square foot dry. I can not imagine what 120g per square would even look like.
> View attachment 4560331


If u let ur babies stretch, u would hit 120g a square brotha, my plants finish 3 to 4 times the size what u ended with.

I’ll update this thread end of the month when it’s about 8 weeks in that test room


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## Dividedsky (May 9, 2020)

I've added 630 cmhs to my flower room full of 1000s hps. Really liking the dual bulb 630 cmh and the results I've gotten. I like mixing the spectrum and running 3100k and 4200k philips bulb in ea 630 hood. Want run a few 630s by themselves to see what they can do by themselves but definitely like less heat and less power consumption. Especially seeing as I run a 2 ton mini split in my flower room.
I'm thinking about switching the all the 1000s over to 630s, would be able to run about 8-630s or split it up into 16- 315s, though I would probably just go with the 8-dual bulb single 630s...Either way cmh works very when mixed with hps for me at the moment.


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## Boatguy (May 9, 2020)

Grassizgreener said:


> If u let ur babies stretch, u would hit 120g a square brotha, my plants finish 3 to 4 times the size what u ended with.
> 
> I’ll update this thread end of the month when it’s about 8 weeks in that test room


I may have tucked too long or flipped too early. I grow from seed so its a crapshoot. 
The tops were all around 12" tall. Maybe next go ill get lucky and they will follow my plan


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## bodhipop (Sep 20, 2020)

Boatguy said:


> Most jammed grow i have had, i wound up with a measly 40g per square foot dry. I can not imagine what 120g per square would even look like.
> View attachment 4560331


Are you running two 315's in that tent or more?
I'm wondering everyones average time for bulb life.
I've ran around 5 flower cycles with my 315 Phillips bulb and I'm thinking it's time to swap.


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## mr4tune (Sep 21, 2020)

Interesting info on here and some great pics. I switched from SE 1k HPS to 630w dual bulbs... My experience is the quality is better but they do not replace a 1k as I had been told by a few guys. The heat is a serious turn off for me... No air cooled hoods meant adding AC and keeping the fixtures further away from the canopy compared to say even a 600w air cooled so at the end of the day idk...

I personally found that 630's over a 4x4 was good but not ideal. It left allot to be desired in the corners and penetration was lack luster for me. Again, just my personal experience. Lotsa guys crushing it to contradict my opinion.

I'm currently running x2 4x8 10-site UC systems.. Decided to drop some coin and try LED panels compared to the CMH. I have x2 8 bar 650w panels over one system, and x3 630w CMH over the other. Im $2k CAD for x2 LED panels, and $2100 for x3 CMH with Philips bulbs. So far the LED's are winning honestly and they are doing it at say 25% of the heat the x3 CMH are putting out. If I were to cut out the x3 CMH and replace with LED panels I wouldn't need my AC. By doing so I could gain an extra 4x8 canopy with the watts reallocated. 

Again, just my experience and room variables. Keep the lid on your haterade... 

I will say the plants vegged under CMH are amazing.


----------



## tripleD (Sep 21, 2020)

mr4tune said:


> Interesting info on here and some great pics. I switched from SE 1k HPS to 630w dual bulbs... My experience is the quality is better but they do not replace a 1k as I had been told by a few guys. The heat is a serious turn off for me... No air cooled hoods meant adding AC and keeping the fixtures further away from the canopy compared to say even a 600w air cooled so at the end of the day idk...
> 
> I personally found that 630's over a 4x4 was good but not ideal. It left allot to be desired in the corners and penetration was lack luster for me. Again, just my personal experience. Lotsa guys crushing it to contradict my opinion.
> 
> ...


Heat is a huge issue for me here in Texas as well, so I switched to the Spydr600 LED several years ago and it made a huge improvement, not only in my electric bill, but also how many grows I can get, since I can grow well into the late spring time now before heat becomes an issue. When I was using CMH or HPS bulbs I couldn’t grow past early March due to heat, but w LED I’m able to grow until Late May.


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## mr4tune (Sep 21, 2020)

Right? I was running x4 CMH and my 8k BTU window banger was running full tilt for 12 hours a day. I couldn't get my room below 85F. That's the room, not the canopy temp lol. Granted this unit is a few years old, but still... thats fucking 800w all day...fml.

I put in 2 LED panels and removed only 1 CMH and I'm down to 80F now with the AC cycling as needed. That's disgusting. I'm just waiting for one of the trolls to start with the "LED panels are bullshit" speeches. The technology has far surpassed the shitty blurple units. Granted I haven't chopped yet to see the final quality or numbers, I have met a few other guys running these same panels and swearing that the quality and weight is there. TIme will tell. Regardless, you can't argue that the fact is clear... The watts saved in cooling and the spread of the panels allows a guy to drastically increase numbers...


----------



## Horselover fat (Sep 21, 2020)

mr4tune said:


> Interesting info on here and some great pics. I switched from SE 1k HPS to 630w dual bulbs... My experience is the quality is better but they do not replace a 1k as I had been told by a few guys. The heat is a serious turn off for me... No air cooled hoods meant adding AC and keeping the fixtures further away from the canopy compared to say even a 600w air cooled so at the end of the day idk...
> 
> I personally found that 630's over a 4x4 was good but not ideal. It left allot to be desired in the corners and penetration was lack luster for me. Again, just my personal experience. Lotsa guys crushing it to contradict my opinion.
> 
> ...


I've used a 315 in 2x4 and at the time it felt like 1.5 x 315 would be perfect for the area. Now that I understand ppf it seems I was right on the nose. 2 x 315 is about 2/3 of the light output of a 1000w hps. Three would be perfect for a 4x4 and match a 1k for output with a better spectrum.


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## hillbill (Sep 22, 2020)

Horselover fat said:


> I've used a 315 in 2x4 and at the time it felt like 1.5 x 315 would be perfect for the area. Now that I understand ppf it seems I was right on the nose. 2 x 315 is about 2/3 of the light output of a 1000w hps. Three would be perfect for a 4x4 and match a 1k for output with a better spectrum.


Adding a 135w or 100w HLG Quantum Board Will make you very happy!


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## Horselover fat (Sep 22, 2020)

hillbill said:


> Adding a 135w or 100w HLG Quantum Board Will make you very happy!


I was going to add two 50w cobs on each side, but then sold off the cmh and built boards instead.


----------



## hillbill (Sep 22, 2020)

Horselover fat said:


> I was going to add two 50w cobs on each side, but then sold off the cmh and built boards instead.
> 
> View attachment 4691639


I run an old 4000k 250 watt Philips CMH next to a 3000k 135 watt QB at the moment.


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## Dividedsky (Sep 23, 2020)

mr4tune said:


> Interesting info on here and some great pics. I switched from SE 1k HPS to 630w dual bulbs... My experience is the quality is better but they do not replace a 1k as I had been told by a few guys. The heat is a serious turn off for me... No air cooled hoods meant adding AC and keeping the fixtures further away from the canopy compared to say even a 600w air cooled so at the end of the day idk...
> 
> I personally found that 630's over a 4x4 was good but not ideal. It left allot to be desired in the corners and penetration was lack luster for me. Again, just my personal experience. Lotsa guys crushing it to contradict my opinion.
> 
> ...


You're definitely right, though I like the 630 dual bulb cmh there's no way it gets near outperforming my s/e 1000w. At times/ dialed in I can pull 2 elbows under my s/e 1000w, I can't do that with a 630cmh. I also like that I can switch out the hps bulb for a MH at beginning and end of flower and in that sense it makes completely switching over to cmh kind of pointless. I have a friend who's all about trying to cut down his electric consumption but wants results. He using 315s for veg 1 in each 4x4 space...630s for flower. His veg plants are getting lanky, im telling him 315w cmh is not enough for a 4x4 veg but he's not hearing it. I'd rather have my 12 bulb/ 4ft/ 54w t5s bulbs for veg all day. Run 16 t5 bulbs in a 5x5 veg, he has a 315cmh in a 5x5 in veg. Dont get it. He thinks 2 630 cmh in flower will outperform 2 se 1000w hps...just don't think so


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## PadawanWarrior (Sep 23, 2020)

My first grow I did 2 315's and got 1.5 pounds dried including the popcorn nugs.

My initials are actually B.S., but I'm really not bullshitting this time, lol.


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## Renfro (Sep 23, 2020)

Dividedsky said:


> He thinks 2 630 cmh in flower will outperform 2 se 1000w hps...just don't think so


I don't think so either.


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## NukaKola (Sep 23, 2020)

To me, CMH vs HPS is similar to QB vs COB. They both have their pros and cons and are better suited for different growing styles. 

If you are going with short veg cycles with shorter plants CMH's are great, the required distance to canopy is a huge bonus if headroom is limited. Longer veg with larger plants a 1000w HPS is a clear winner. 

A more suited comparison would be 3 315w CMH (990w actual) vs a 1000w DE HPS (1200w actual). It would be hard to do a comparison though as they would both require completely different grow methods and footprints.


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## Dividedsky (Sep 24, 2020)

NukaKola said:


> To me, CMH vs HPS is similar to QB vs COB. They both have their pros and cons and are better suited for different growing styles.
> 
> If you are going with short veg cycles with shorter plants CMH's are great, the required distance to canopy is a huge bonus if headroom is limited. Longer veg with larger plants a 1000w HPS is a clear winner.
> 
> A more suited comparison would be 3 315w CMH (990w actual) vs a 1000w DE HPS (1200w actual). It would be hard to do a comparison though as they would both require completely different grow methods and footprints.


For sure. I was thinking of updating my flower room. I'm running 4- se1000w hps/mh and a 1-630cmh in the middle. I run a sealed room with 2 ton minisplit and co2, so I have some wiggle room, and can pretty much switch around to whatever I want and maybe add some light, though I'm not really trying to add wattage with the lights. 
I've thought of getting rid of the 4-se 1000w and running 8-630cmh dual bulb, it would get some very nice coverage in my room. Even thought of splitting it up and running 16-315cmh but that a lot of lights to hang and alot of wires. Think I'm going to pick up a gavita 1700e gen 2 to test em out and see how I like the LED's these days, ran them years ago when the tech wasn't were it is now. Not opposed to running all leds in my flower room though that would be a bigger investment. Also been looking into the d/e 630 cmh which there's not alot of info about on those. They seem like they would do the trick. Guess I'm old school though- I still love my s/e 1000s especially since throwing mine in the extra large adjusta wing(bat wings) open hoods.


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## Grassizgreener (Sep 24, 2020)

Renfro said:


> I don't think so either.




4 630 duals in a 12x12 pulled a little over 10#,
3 630 staged 4x10 and one off center to the side of the 3. Veg and keeping light height right throughout flower is key along with right vpd and feeding.


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## NukaKola (Sep 24, 2020)

Dividedsky said:


> For sure. I was thinking of updating my flower room. I'm running 4- se1000w hps/mh and a 1-630cmh in the middle. I run a sealed room with 2 ton minisplit and co2, so I have some wiggle room, and can pretty much switch around to whatever I want and maybe add some light, though I'm not really trying to add wattage with the lights.
> I've thought of getting rid of the 4-se 1000w and running 8-630cmh dual bulb, it would get some very nice coverage in my room. Even thought of splitting it up and running 16-315cmh but that a lot of lights to hang and alot of wires. Think I'm going to pick up a gavita 1700e gen 2 to test em out and see how I like the LED's these days, ran them years ago when the tech wasn't were it is now. Not opposed to running all leds in my flower room though that would be a bigger investment. Also been looking into the d/e 630 cmh which there's not alot of info about on those. They seem like they would do the trick. Guess I'm old school though- I still love my s/e 1000s especially since throwing mine in the extra large adjusta wing(bat wings) open hoods.


I would be interested to see a side by side of the 630w dual bulb vs 630w DE. A lot of the DE’s seem to be discontinued already though so I’d be a bit worried about replacements down the road.

I just went from 600w SE HPS to LED to see what the hype is about. HPS works great and for the cost it is hard to beat. 

If you’re interested in the Gavita 1700e, you may want to check out Timbers new Cypress 8, very similar fixture for $300 less.


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## Jakkar (Sep 25, 2020)

I’m currently running a mix of 650w LEDs and 315s. I average in the 9-11oz range per 315 and would like to step up my gram per foot ratio where the 315s are. I love the cmh and been looking at the 630 duels and de but haven’t found much info. I have 7’ ceilings, can I use the 630 DE over a 4x4 or do i need more ceiling height? Do the dual bulbs cover a 4x4 sufficiently?


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## Grassizgreener (Sep 25, 2020)

Jakkar said:


> I’m currently running a mix of 650w LEDs and 315s. I average in the 9-11oz range per 315 and would like to step up my gram per foot ratio where the 315s are. I love the cmh and been looking at the 630 duels and de but haven’t found much info. I have 7’ ceilings, can I use the 630 DE over a 4x4 or do i need more ceiling height? Do the dual bulbs cover a 4x4 sufficiently?


Height isn’t the problem it’s the heat, I would say it puts off the same amount of as a 700w hps, I can hang it about 16-18” without bleaching tops. If u can keep the lights at 20-24” throughout flower, your plants will reward you. This is regarding 630s with dual Phillips bulbs


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## Dividedsky (Sep 25, 2020)

Grassizgreener said:


> View attachment 4693810
> 
> 4 630 duals in a 12x12 pulled a little over 10#,
> 3 630 staged 4x10 and one off center to the side of the 3. Veg and keeping light height right throughout flower is key along with right vpd and feeding.


You pulled 10 elbows with 4-630s? That impressive if its so...I've gotten 10 elbows with my 4- 1000w and a 630s, granted I am growing all cookies, wedding cake and gelatos and hit those numbers with my very best yielding phenos.


Jakkar said:


> I’m currently running a mix of 650w LEDs and 315s. I average in the 9-11oz range per 315 and would like to step up my gram per foot ratio where the 315s are. I love the cmh and been looking at the 630 duels and de but haven’t found much info. I have 7’ ceilings, can I use the 630 DE over a 4x4 or do i need more ceiling height? Do the dual bulbs cover a 4x4 sufficiently?


Ya I believe you'll be good with a de 630cmh and with 7ft ceilings. You might want to veg plants to a smaller size before throwing them in flower though. The de 630s give off a bit more heat than the duals but height wise 7ft should suffice.


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## Jakkar (Sep 25, 2020)

Thanks for the reply guys, looks like I’m going the DE direction. It’ll be interesting to see how they do vs the 650w strip Samsung lm301s


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## OneHitDone (Sep 25, 2020)

Has anyone tried one of these CMH setups by HydroFarm?















Hydrofarm > Lighting > Lighting Systems/Kits > Phantom Dual 315W CMH System w/Philips 3100K Lamps, 120-240V






www.hydrofarm.com


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## mr4tune (Sep 25, 2020)

NukaKola said:


> I would be interested to see a side by side of the 630w dual bulb vs 630w DE. A lot of the DE’s seem to be discontinued already though so I’d be a bit worried about replacements down the road....
> I just went from 600w SE HPS to LED to see what the hype is about. HPS works great and for the cost it is hard to beat.
> 
> If you’re interested in the Gavita 1700e, you may want to check out Timbers new Cypress 8, very similar fixture for $300 less.


My first CMH fixture was a 630 DE with a Silverstar 3XL hood. What a piece of shit that was. Idk I still think there was an issue with the ballast because my yields were horrible compared to the same plants in the room under the dual bulbs. The heat was somehow waaaay less than under the dual bulbs. Had to have been an issue somewhere... The reflector was almost a 4x4 itself and I actually got a reserved pillow effect. The edges got more light than the center due to the angle of the reflectors and the depth of the hood. Made no sense. Piss poor design on many levels.


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## mr4tune (Sep 25, 2020)

Jakkar said:


> Thanks for the reply guys, looks like I’m going the DE direction. It’ll be interesting to see how they do vs the 650w strip Samsung lm301s


Unless something has changed with them, I'm pretty sure you'll be selling it and getting another LED lol. You just cant compare to these panels now. Between the savings in cooling and being able to get the panels right ontop of the canopy. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out duder.


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## Grassizgreener (Sep 25, 2020)

Dividedsky said:


> You pulled 10 elbows with 4-630s? That impressive if its so...I've gotten 10 elbows with my 4- 1000w and a 630s, granted I am growing all cookies, wedding cake and gelatos and hit those numbers with my very best yielding phenos.


Gelato33 x’s with og’s.

I would only recommend dual bulbs as Phillips bulb are proven to produce. That said, I am transitioning to led cause same wattage will produce same if not more gpw


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## OneHitDone (Sep 25, 2020)

Isn't the consensus somewhat that dual arc tube cmh lamps are inferior to multiple Philips 315 lamps?
I had read somewhere that arc tube stability issues was one main issue.


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## Panaelous (Nov 15, 2020)

mr4tune said:


> Unless something has changed with them, I'm pretty sure you'll be selling it and getting another LED lol. You just cant compare to these panels now. Between the savings in cooling and being able to get the panels right ontop of the canopy. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out duder.


Lol


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## Grassizgreener (Nov 25, 2020)

Day 30 half way there, 3x 630 cmh nanolux in 4x10 space. Going for a couple O’z


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## Insearchofsunlightnz (Dec 2, 2020)

Well i have just completed my 1st grow with Two 315cmh lights, 4 plants in a 1.2metre x 1.2metre grow tent. I grew the plants in coco using nutrifield nutrients. No lst no scrog just some light defoliation around main budsites, an ended up with 20oz of nice buds. It was surprising that the lower flowers did end up quite solid. In my opinion they are a decent light source for growing cannabis


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## Rurumo (Dec 3, 2020)

Insearchofsunlightnz said:


> Well i have just completed my 1st grow with Two 315cmh lights, 4 plants in a 1.2metre x 1.2metre grow tent. I grew the plants in coco using nutrifield nutrients. No lst no scrog just some light defoliation around main budsites, an ended up with 20oz of nice buds. It was surprising that the lower flowers did end up quite solid. In my opinion they are a decent light source for growing cannabis


Awesome job bud, I love the cmh too.


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 3, 2020)

Anyone bought and used one of the newer Chinese vertical 315 fixtures that are about half the cost of Sun Systems?

Examples:


https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B08D7J15QG




https://www.amazon.com/TopoLite-Fixture-Hydroponic-Growing-Vertical/dp/B06VXGBTN8




https://www.amazon.com/Hongruilite-120V-240V-Ceramic-Spectrum-Vertical/dp/B06Y53WRT7




https://www.amazon.com/Oppolite-Vertiacl-Reflector-Replace-Vertical/dp/B071NS7BYH







Amazon.com: Grow Solution 315W CMH CDM Ceramic Metal Halide Grow Light Kit w/3100K Bulb 120/240V Replace LED Grow Light for Indoor Plant Growing (CMH 315W (Vertical)) : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com: Grow Solution 315W CMH CDM Ceramic Metal Halide Grow Light Kit w/3100K Bulb 120/240V Replace LED Grow Light for Indoor Plant Growing (CMH 315W (Vertical)) : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com





I get that they are all super cheap and might have ballasts that crap out after whatever time, but they are only marginally more expensive than the Sun System hoods without ballast and one could just wire up a replacement external ballast and be back in business pretty quick. Still less than half the cost of original Sun System 315, and I think you even get a lamp (probably not as good as Phillips..)

Nothing else I've seen on the market gives that same unique light footprint through the reflector (with 5 hot points).

spending $200ish a piece sounds a whole lot better than $450-500...


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## Grassizgreener (Dec 3, 2020)

As long your using Phillips bulbs, you should b good to go



GrownAtHighAltitude said:


> Anyone bought and used one of the newer Chinese vertical 315 fixtures that are about half the cost of Sun Systems?
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 3, 2020)

GrownAtHighAltitude said:


> Anyone bought and used one of the newer Chinese vertical 315 fixtures that are about half the cost of Sun Systems?
> 
> Examples:
> 
> ...


If that isn't a rip off of a Sun System fix I don't know what is. China knock offs aren't even trying to hide the fact a little that they steal patent and design copyrights from their owners.


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 3, 2020)

Home | Sun Systems


America's #1 Brand of Horticultural Lighting Fixtures




www.sunsystemlights.com


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 4, 2020)

Yeah, but they probably source them from China anyway (Sun Systems). There probably isn't that much difference, honestly.


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

Likely, but I hope that the internal components are higher quality with the sun systems, the cost has to reflect a better quality, least I hope..


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 4, 2020)

farmingfisherman said:


> Likely, but I hope that the internal components are higher quality with the sun systems, the cost has to reflect a better quality, least I hope..








Amazon.com: Sun System LEC 906257 LEC 315 RA Remote Reflector : Electronics


Amazon.com: Sun System LEC 906257 LEC 315 RA Remote Reflector : Electronics



www.amazon.com





That thing, without ballast, is over $200, and no lamp. This is why I'm thinking I don't care if the ballast is sub-standard, it can just be replaced with one of those nifty Etelligent dimmable units later.


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## hillbill (Dec 4, 2020)

Cost difference may only relate to branding, everything, all parts are sometimes identical, lots of imported merchandise is like that, helps if rebranding outfit is in your country.


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

GrownAtHighAltitude said:


> Amazon.com: Sun System LEC 906257 LEC 315 RA Remote Reflector : Electronics
> 
> 
> Amazon.com: Sun System LEC 906257 LEC 315 RA Remote Reflector : Electronics
> ...


Try this again. Yeah Sun System stuff isn't cheap nor is Gavita, nanolux ,hortilux and few other brands I trust. I figure the money I spend on quality grow equipment is worth the peace of mind knowing it's less likely to burn my home down which my love ones and I live in. Getting setup to grow properly costs real money, how much is up to the grower. Personally I figure the money I spend now is money I would have spent on buying weed and other weed related products in the future so why not go with the "one and done" approach. I was okay with buying a couple of knock off lower wattage China made LED's early on but I'm not going to take that risk with higher wattage HPS/MH/CMH lights. Not long ago I installed a new LED outdoor security light for my inlaws and first had to remove their old MH light. I took the MH apart afterwards which was a cheap china made light, the ballast on it was cooked, it had melted down to a gooey mess and smelled of a horrible electrical fire. Luckily the fixture was away from the house and incased in a metal fixture that contained the fire. Imagine that happening inside of a tent in your spare room or basement? No thanks..
P.S. The CMH fixture I bought has a dimmer which is fancy but worthless unless you are running it with a controller that it was designed for.


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## TintEastwood (Dec 4, 2020)

These are solid and huge.









V-Lux Vertical CMH 315w LEC Grow Light Reflector Hood Kit Fixture 120-240v | eBay


Vertical Lamp 50/60 Hz. Square Wave. Built in Thermal Protection. We take our reputation seriously.



www.ebay.com





Mixing it up these days.


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

TintEastwood said:


> These are solid and huge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ballast and bulb sold separately?


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

TintEastwood said:


> These are solid and huge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks like the lair of some sort of mad talented scientist..


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 4, 2020)

farmingfisherman said:


> Ballast and bulb sold separately?


That looks like ballast included... I dunno about the light footprint with the angles in those reflectors... That is the one thing I think Sun System got really right with the lamp design.


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 4, 2020)

That said, those are some pretty killer looking flowers...


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

GrownAtHighAltitude said:


> That looks like ballast included... I dunno about the light footprint with the angles in those reflectors... That is the one thing I think Sun System got really right with the lamp design.


When I was shopping for a light I was told that tests showed the horizontal fixtures had been proven to provide better coverage than the previous vertical bulb hanging fixtures. I considered the vertical fixture because of the ballast outside of the tent mounting option but when used with leds the heat turns out to be a welcome addition.


----------



## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

farmingfisherman said:


> Ballast and bulb sold separately?


Yeah I should read more and post less.


----------



## Topshelfruns (Dec 4, 2020)

farmingfisherman said:


> Try this again. Yeah Sun System stuff isn't cheap nor is Gavita, nanolux ,hortilux and few other brands I trust. I figure the money I spend on quality grow equipment is worth the peace of mind knowing it's less likely to burn my home down which my love ones and I live in. Getting setup to grow properly costs real money, how much is up to the grower. Personally I figure the money I spend now is money I would have spent on buying weed and other weed related products in the future so why not go with the "one and done" approach. I was okay with buying a couple of knock off lower wattage China made LED's early on but I'm not going to take that risk with higher wattage HPS/MH/CMH lights. Not long ago I installed a new LED outdoor security light for my inlaws and first had to remove their old MH light. I took the MH apart afterwards which was a cheap china made light, the ballast on it was cooked, it had melted down to a gooey mess and smelled of a horrible electrical fire. Luckily the fixture was away from the house and incased in a metal fixture that contained the fire. Imagine that happening inside of a tent in your spare room or basement? No thanks..
> P.S. The CMH fixture I bought has a dimmer which is fancy but worthless unless you are running it with a controller that it was designed for.
> 
> 
> ...


I love your setup a 315w cmh with 2 quantum board led's I bet you get great yields


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

Topshelfruns said:


> I love your setup a 315w cmh with 2 quantum board led's I bet you get great yields


Still puffing away on all the plants from that grow which was my first indoor so I was pretty happy with the results.


----------



## Topshelfruns (Dec 4, 2020)

farmingfisherman said:


> Still puffing away on all the plants from that grow which was my first indoor so I was pretty happy with the results.


May I ask how is the end quality's stone? Alot of people tell me your bud wont get you as stoned if you dont give them UVB but other people tell me that uva is all you need I'm wondering how your end quality was since you used only UVA and I'm glad that you are smoking for free , I am currently spending 180-240 usd a week


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## farmingfisherman (Dec 4, 2020)

Topshelfruns said:


> May I ask how is the end quality's stone? Alot of people tell me your bud wont get you as stoned if you dont give them UVB but other people tell me that uva is all you need I'm wondering how your end quality was since you used only UVA and I'm glad that you are smoking for free , I am currently spending 180-240 usd a week


Each plant is different but they are all pretty good. Have three that lean more towards sativa and two that are more indica. All five plants are good and all are different. Definitely room for improvement but still very happy with my first attempt under lights.


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## TintEastwood (Dec 4, 2020)

farmingfisherman said:


> Yeah I should read more and post less.


Ballast built in. Bulb not included. Taller hood.
Just another option. Not selling.

In action.





Seven Sisters


These 'citigardens' reflectors are dreamy. Puts off a nice even gentle spread. Internal ballast. Opening sizes. 18 x 18 citigardens Replacing these. 11 x 13 neutrons - external ballast



www.rollitup.org


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 4, 2020)

TintEastwood said:


> These are solid and huge.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep, after re-checking the picture, it's the same type of pattern and I think that's the best deal.

Thanks! Killer looking garden and growlog!


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## Star Dog (Dec 4, 2020)

farmingfisherman said:


> When I was shopping for a light I was told that tests showed the horizontal fixtures had been proven to provide better coverage than the previous vertical bulb hanging fixtures.


Anyone with a light meter will prove that to be wrong, I've tested vertical against horizontal and the vertical has superior spread and output.
The also run really cool to boot.

You can see I've got a firm hold, not just a quick touch for a photo.


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## raratt (Dec 7, 2020)

I was contemplating picking up one of these. I'm running 2 vertical CMH 315's now covering about 5'X 3.5'. Thoughts?


https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079KP8NTP/?coliid=I6NS2SNQ7TNTQ&colid=1LE2FYSASNBVG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


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## Rurumo (Dec 7, 2020)

raratt said:


> I was contemplating picking up one of these. I'm running 2 vertical CMH 315's now covering about 5'X 3.5'. Thoughts?
> 
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B079KP8NTP/?coliid=I6NS2SNQ7TNTQ&colid=1LE2FYSASNBVG&psc=1&ref_=lv_ov_lig_dp_it


Idk about the reviews on that one. I really like the iluminar 630 DE, the quality is great. You missed the good black friday deals, but they do put them on sale regularly.


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## raratt (Dec 7, 2020)

Rurumo said:


> Idk about the reviews on that one. I really like the iluminar 630 DE, the quality is great. You missed the good black friday deals, but they do put them on sale regularly.


I'm running 120V also.


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## Rurumo (Dec 7, 2020)

raratt said:


> I'm running 120V also.


me too, I had to get the 120 cord when I got my light from them, but the fixture works with both cords-just double check you're getting the 120 volt fixture to begin with. I'll be starting a new grow journal with this light soon. My cousin has a 630 dual bulb so I checked it out and really struggled with the decision to get a DE instead, but I'm glad I went with the DE. I want to test out the regular 3k bulb vs the 3k enhanced red bulb sometime too, I haven't found much info about them online.


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## Star Dog (Dec 7, 2020)

I've got a 400v de ballast and parabolic reflector that never gets used, watt for watt it can't live with the vertical orientation output because it can get it much closer.


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## Drop That Sound (Dec 8, 2020)

What would give a higher GPW:

The newer modern 315 digital ballasts and bulb

Or

The 360 watt CMH retrofit bulbs they were making that fit into any old magnetic 400 MH ballasts?

Also, why would you spend hundreds to upgrade to newer chincier crap that will burn out any day now when you can buy the CMH retrofit bulbs for $50 or so, and put them in your cheap reliable mag ballast that will run forever, with no radio interference noise or any other problems with the cheap digital components they now use.

Also, they made an 860 watt CMH bulb that fit into your 1000 MH ballast. How could you even top that without cobbling together multiple 315s and shelling out the dough?






Amazon.com : PHILIPS 901574 860W CDM All Start Growing Lamp : High Intensity Discharge Bulbs : Patio, Lawn & Garden


Amazon.com : PHILIPS 901574 860W CDM All Start Growing Lamp : High Intensity Discharge Bulbs : Patio, Lawn & Garden



www.amazon.com


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## Drop That Sound (Dec 8, 2020)

Better yet, they make ceramic halide discharge bulbs in almost any size. They even have little baby 50-100 watt bulbs and ballasts. Why wouldnt you want to have a grid with multiple mini 70w bulbs, like 10 of them (700 total watts as opposed to a double ended 630) evenly spaced apart, and firing off of one ballast, for max coverage and even output instead of a single light source/bigger bulb.

A grid of 70w cmh bulbs over a highly trained scrog would hold the record quality/yeild for CMH grows i'm sure.


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## hillbill (Dec 8, 2020)

I use old 250w and 400w Philips Retrofit 4000k to supplement my COBs and Board. Just to bring in UVA and Infrared. Been doing this since March, like it.
Have 7 bulbs from 2013 with 0 hours.


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## Drop That Sound (Dec 8, 2020)

hillbill said:


> I use old 250w and 400w Philips Retrofit 4000k to supplement my COBs and Board. Just to bring in UVA and Infrared. Been doing this since March, like it.
> Have 7 bulbs from 2013 with 0 hours.


Looks hard to find those bulbs now. I got one stashed away. If you ask me the whole 315 sqaure wave digital ballast thing was just a gimmick to re design the wheel. They changed a few things electronically, that is just a re-engineered version of old tech to make for a new shiny marketable item that everyone must have, at A steep price.

Basically, i can get mag ballast a dime a dozen if not free, buy a $50 400watt retrofit bulb, and smoke your new 315 lol, just saying..


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## Drop That Sound (Dec 8, 2020)

And they dont even produce the retrofit bulbs now because all you guys fell for the marketing ploy and shelled out millions for 315s


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 8, 2020)

I ran the 400W Phillips retrofits before they discontinued them, and then still after with the GE lamp. The only issue is the GE's are not rated for open enclosure use, so you have to put it behind glass/use fans. The 315 open bulb ends up being a lot brighter. I'm actually in the process of switching everything over to 315's because of the efficiency advantage as well as the actual light produced.


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## GrownAtHighAltitude (Dec 8, 2020)

GE LIGHTING 400W, ED18 Ceramic Metal Halide HID Light Bulb - - Amazon.com


GE LIGHTING 400W, ED18 Ceramic Metal Halide HID Light Bulb - - Amazon.com



www.amazon.com


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## hillbill (Dec 8, 2020)

The 3100k 315w CMH is more efficient and has more and deeper reds in the spectrum.


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## raratt (Dec 8, 2020)

A square wave goes directly to peak power on each cycle, where a sine wave only reaches peak power for a moment.


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## Kushandjams (Dec 25, 2020)

What is optimal distance for dual 315w cmh bulb style fixture from plant canopy. Running nanolux 630w dual single ended bulbs. Looked online for it and cant find anything including a ppfd chart


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## Rurumo (Dec 25, 2020)

Kushandjams said:


> What is optimal distance for dual 315w cmh bulb style fixture from plant canopy. Running nanolux 630w dual single ended bulbs. Looked online for it and cant find anything including a ppfd chart


I've seen several people say "about 24 inches." I'm curious about that too.


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## Bakersfield (Dec 28, 2020)

Kushandjams said:


> What is optimal distance for dual 315w cmh bulb style fixture from plant canopy. Running nanolux 630w dual single ended bulbs. Looked online for it and cant find anything including a ppfd chart


Theres a couple of variables. I think it depends on your canopy footprint and how much light your plants can bear.
I personally keep my nanolux dual 315 cmh at 3 feet.


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## Grassizgreener (Dec 29, 2020)

I’m 16-18” from canopy full bloom with dual nanos. Tops are deficient from lack of food and high ppfd but flowers below are fine. No burnt tops or bleaching


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## Onextremebuzz (Mar 5, 2021)

ttystikk said:


> This people thinks that 315W CMH is worth about 400-450W of HPS, and about 200W of CXB3590 driven at 50W apiece to get 56% efficiency.
> 
> The trend is clearly visible from least efficient to most. Place your bets, mind the fact that you won't be able to give your old lamps away in five years. Cuz COB LED IS that much better- and by then it will also be cheaper.


Oh have times changed


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## ttystikk (Mar 10, 2021)

Onextremebuzz said:


> Oh have times changed


It's been 6 years and I don't see a lot of builders running HPS anymore. 315W CMH is still hanging in there but only with square wave ballasts to maximise efficiency- and even then only for those on a tight budget. The best dressed growrooms are all one variation or another on the LED theme.

I was right.


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