# Lets be honest and talk about microbes there use, affects and cost



## 1joeblowuknow (May 6, 2019)

Microbes convert npk to increase plant health, reduce stress and disease and increase yield. Some are better at this than others. Some are good at npk conversion while others are best at nitrogen fixing abilities. Some microbes are more aggressive than others and will actually dominate the microbiome. Like tricaderma they are good but aggressive and not the best at converting npk and nitrogen fixing. So my point is do you really understand how to use microbials and are you getting the best bang for your buck. Lets start the thread !


----------



## Herb & Suds (May 6, 2019)

Welcome to RIU
This could be interesting 
My KISS method may need "adaptations" 
Show me the way


----------



## 1joeblowuknow (May 8, 2019)

I have limited time but want to reach as many of the influencers as possible. For starters pls forgive my grammar. ok here we go. 

Ok so as everyone is finding out microbes and parasitic fungi are powerful tools that are allowing growers to achieve higher yields with stronger plants. We are finding that using microbes and fungi or beenies or what ever you want to call are very safe and effective ways to prevent and attack insects and disease. 

Now what products do we use ? 

Companion
Myco Jordan
Roots
Mammoth P
Triple Threat
Em-1
Mbx Grow
Root Shield
microbe lift
Bio-Ag 
Azos
X treme mycos
Great white 
Orca
The list is long. so we need to understand whats in them and, how strong is the mix/Cost? and effect and yield and quality. 

After some time spent researching the data and actually trying the products on cannabis I would like to start the conversation there. As usual alot of product makers are not to forth coming about how the product actual works. Its more about promotion vs education. 

Lets look at a common mix of microbes from a popular brand. 7 species Endomycorrhizae & 11 species Ectomycorrhizae
• 67,000 Endo & 1.5 billion Ecto Propagules per lb.
• 19 species Bacteria/ 2 species Trichoderma
• Biostimulant & Vitamin Package 

Now what happens when this mix is used on cannabis? Ok lets say we will eliminate the ectomycos because they are for some trees. The endos are good but the trichoderma are far more aggresive and will actually compete and eat the remaining Endos. So it looks like we are getting the most benifits from this popular mix by the Trichoderma and maybe also the "biostimulant" ??? Not sure what that 
specifically is, and the vitamins. 

So that brings me to are trichoderma being as aggressive as they are the best option for cannabis. 

I am positive the are not. There are more effective microbes and they are bacillus. Now I will predict that someone will argue that there are so many other beneficials and we should use a more whole approach to achieving a healthy and thriving microbiome. I agree. I also will say that to be clear using competitive exclusion tactics with microbes is just that and building a healthy microbioem can be done in different ways. For instance guy lives on farm he has all the healthy organic imputs he needs to build healthy soills and microbiomes. The guy in a indoor grow lab using areoponics has to take a different approach. 

These are the folks I really want to join the thread. This is because under these indoor or medium less enviros we need to have a more designed effective science meets ag meets biotechnology approach and this is where the Bacillus comes in strong. I have a whole lot of independent and in house data that proves bacillus is performing stronger than other micros. Each particular species and subspecies is different and performs different symbiotic functions with and within the plant. 

So this brings us to ............Drum Beat >>>......>>>>...>>>...>>>.. who or what product has the most effective bacillus subspecies . this will directly effect yield and plant quality. It is measurable. Just a simple test with different products and we are all to having the data and proof of which person or company can bring the highest yields to the grower because of the particular subspecies they have are the best at doing what they do. Just like humans and canna strains all dont function with the same effects or efficiencies. Dont believe me just try going against Shaq in basketball. Both are human but 1 is better genetics. 

We reduce nutrient strengths by 1/2 and increase yield and quality because disease and pests are defeated naturally. Plant health, brix levels, and genetic defenses within the plant are all functioning properly now because of the symbiosis with the microbes. Plants producing sugars and the microbes are converting more NPK's, releasing , aminos and enzymes all together in sync. 

Now if you have multiple species of bacillus working together and you use the competitive exclusion method by introducing at a level that you have all good microbes thriving then the bad guys dont ever get a chance to get established. Ok here is a area where people are going to doubt or even hate on me. 

As I have explained above this is the way you get 30-50% yield increases when others are getting 16% at most. To make even more skeptics this combo of aggressive
bacillus costs a fraction of the cost folks are paying for microbes now. 

I want to make it clear I am not here to push or promote or even suggest any particular product. I am here to speak to understanding what we are using , how they work, are they safe and the cost and return. 


Lets get some experienced members or mentors to vet what I am saying and to shed light on the truth and cut through the power of large companies to manipulate public opinion through sites like this and others. Lets see if we the little people and the simple grower or patient can have a voice of truth and educate folks for the good of great clean medicine that we know cannabis is. 

For my love of cannabis growing and consuming is strong and as passionate as ever. I have had a grow room, greenhouse, or field ever since I fell in love with this plant over 30 years ago.


----------



## 1joeblowuknow (May 8, 2019)

Again sorry about my spelling and writing skills I hope you understand. if you dont pls ask and I will clear it up. Thanks guys hopefully we can get some heavy hitters over here on this thread to bring more knowledge to the whole community.


----------



## LinguaPeel (May 12, 2019)

I use microbes that naturally exist in the Cannabis plant. Dont need to know what they are or what they do, just have to accept reality, that Cannabis would be extinct if they didn't work. So why harvest from a source the plant didn't co-evolve with? When the entire problem is killing off/replacing these microbes? 

Their role could be as simple as taking up seating, leaving no room for foreign microbes. Doesnt matter. Just let nature do its thing and quit putting foreign microbes and foreign microbe food on your Cannabis.


----------



## xtsho (May 12, 2019)

I've never payed for microbe products. A good soil will already have all you need. I grow in coco with chemical salts and I get roots just like that without microbes. 

I just don't see the need for any of those products. A good grower doesn't need all that stuff. Cannabis is just a plant. I have a harder time growing orchids or eggplant than I do cannabis. The cannabis nute industry is full of unnecessary products that transfer your money into someone else's pocket because they've marketed cannabis as some special plant that needs all this special stuff. It doesn't. It's one of the easiest plants to grow if you just leave it alone and don't dump a bunch of stuff on it it will do great. At least that's what my decades of growing have shown me.


----------



## Don_Sequitor (May 14, 2019)

Microbes work on a small scale.

My understanding is that the addition of microbes to a soil solution will increase fertilizer use efficiency resulting in greater total plant biomass for seedlings.

That being said, the PGP (plant growth promoting) product might be more expensive than the fertilizer. And costs could easily offset the percent increase in fertilizer use efficiency. Hope this helps. There might be significant beneficial use on a small scale, such as cloning.


----------



## Thegermling (May 14, 2019)

Microbes help with everything you listed but the reason I use them is to help coat the roots with a protective barrier against pathogens. I grow in pure coco and use salts and I use recharge (compatible with salt instensive grows) and og biowar. Never lost a plant to disease yet. Youre better of with them either way.


----------



## eyderbuddy (May 14, 2019)

Real Growers Recharge & Photosynthesis Plus are good products if you're doing a soil or coco mix.
If you're doing pure hydro go with Tribus (impello) or Photsynthesis Plus.

You can grow OK bud by just using nutes. But using microbes improves almost everything without any fuzz...


----------



## Logan Burke (May 14, 2019)

I use microbes in my DWC system, and in that regard it's for a different purpose than soil growers may use them for. I know that many soil growers use microbes to assist, or sometimes even as the primary mechanism of action, for breaking down nutrients. But being in hydro using synthetic nutes, I only use them to prevent root rot and aid in root growth. But nevertheless, it is an important factor of my grow. Herb and Suds turned me onto the brand of beneficial bacteria he uses, which I intend on giving a try alongside with Photosynthesis Plus after my current grow and my current batch of bennies has been used up.  


eyderbuddy said:


> Real Growers Recharge & Photosynthesis Plus are good products if you're doing a soil or coco mix.
> If you're doing pure hydro go with Tribus (impello) or Photsynthesis Plus.
> 
> You can grow OK bud by just using nutes. But using microbes improves almost everything without any fuzz...


I am currently using Great White in DWC, but I am really excited to try the Photosynthesis Plus on my upcoming run along with the other one Herbs and Suds showed me.


----------



## MrPuffTuff (May 14, 2019)

I used to use Mammoth P for microbes, but switched to powdered due to (liquid) Mammoth P never looking or smelling the same... I now run NPK Grow and Bloom Microbes (in a soil/less DTW) - if you want bacillus, they've got it (multiple species) in large quantities:


----------



## crimsonecho (May 14, 2019)

In hydro, ok. I get it. But in soil or in any medium enriched with ewc and manure, using bottled microbes is a big waste of money imo.


----------



## hotrodharley (May 17, 2019)

Great White is as common in the professional grow areas here as nitrogen is in the air. I think it’s way too expensive and Xtreme Mykos WP is as good. Get a sample packet. Take 2 plants in Dixie cups that you are transplanting into soil or peat. Dust one after you remove the cup and transplant. Transplant the other without dusting it. The root area if that needs explanation. Then check the difference in root development. Mycorrhizae is present in the root zone of almost 90% of plant growing environments. Nature can’t be wrong. It’s not magic.


----------



## xtsho (May 17, 2019)

I'll keep my money in my bank account. Others can spend all they want on unnecessary products. I can guarantee my grows will be just as good as theirs without the unneeded products..


----------



## eyderbuddy (May 17, 2019)

xtsho said:


> I'll keep my money in my bank account. Others can spend all they want on unnecessary products. I can guarantee my grows will be just as good as theirs without the unneeded products..


good for ya'


----------



## xtsho (May 17, 2019)

eyderbuddy said:


> good for ya'


Yes it's always good to not spend money you don't have to. I don't buy into all the cannabis specific marketing hype. I just grow them as I would any of the other dozens of plants I grow. I've been growing things for almost fifty years. I've never seen the money grab that I'm seeing targeted towards cannabis growers. So many have bought into the nonsense and seem happy to give their money away. I'm not one of them.

Roots grow just fine without spending money on unnecessary and unneeded products.


----------



## Don_Sequitor (May 17, 2019)

I'd like to see them in a five gallon pot.


----------



## Kushash (May 17, 2019)

xtsho said:


> Yes it's always good to not spend money you don't have to. I don't buy into all the cannabis specific marketing hype. I just grow them as I would any of the other dozens of plants I grow. I've been growing things for almost fifty years. I've never seen the money grab that I'm seeing targeted towards cannabis growers. So many have bought into the nonsense and seem happy to give their money away. I'm not one of them.
> 
> Roots grow just fine without spending money on unnecessary and unneeded products.


I'm with you!
I went through the list and don't use any of them.


----------



## Kushash (May 18, 2019)

1joeblowuknow said:


> Again sorry about my spelling and writing skills I hope you understand. if you dont pls ask and I will clear it up. Thanks guys hopefully we can get some heavy hitters over here on this thread to bring more knowledge to the whole community.


I'm guilty of only skimming this thread.
Is there mention of fresh EWC?
I haven't used those products on your list but I'm sure many of them can be beneficial especially for a soil that needs to be inoculated.
Might want to ask to have your thread moved to the organic section.
Happy Growing!​


----------



## hotrodharley (May 18, 2019)

xtsho said:


> Yes it's always good to not spend money you don't have to. I don't buy into all the cannabis specific marketing hype. I just grow them as I would any of the other dozens of plants I grow. I've been growing things for almost fifty years. I've never seen the money grab that I'm seeing targeted towards cannabis growers. So many have bought into the nonsense and seem happy to give their money away. I'm not one of them.
> 
> Roots grow just fine without spending money on unnecessary and unneeded products.


Cannabis targeted? Read about more than cannabis. It’s not bullshit. Some may overhype it but the science is real. 

http://smsf-mastergardeners.ucanr.edu/Elkus/The_Effects_of_Mycorrhizal_Fungi_Inoculum_on_Vegetables/


----------



## hotrodharley (May 18, 2019)

Tons and tons of scholarly articles regarding beneficial microbes and the effects on crops. Meaning food and not cannabis. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5609239/

“*Summary*
Plant‐associated microbiomes have tremendous potential to improve plant resilience and yields in farming systems. There is increasing evidence that biological technologies that use microbes or their metabolites can enhance nutrient uptake and yield, control pests and mitigate plant stress responses. However, to fully realize the potential of microbial technology, their efficacy and consistency under the broad range of real‐world conditions need to be improved.”


----------



## Don_Sequitor (May 18, 2019)

There might be a lot of interest in microbes for a nutrient deficient soil.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (May 18, 2019)

xtsho said:


> Yes it's always good to not spend money you don't have to. I don't buy into all the cannabis specific marketing hype. I just grow them as I would any of the other dozens of plants I grow. I've been growing things for almost fifty years. I've never seen the money grab that I'm seeing targeted towards cannabis growers. So many have bought into the nonsense and seem happy to give their money away. I'm not one of them.
> 
> Roots grow just fine without spending money on unnecessary and unneeded products.


So you where growing marijuana in the 1960's "around" and born in the 1940's
And are using the net.

Those roots are root bound and not a healthy white. The facts are those microbes do make a difference, but I'm sure someone with all those years knows best


----------



## xtsho (May 18, 2019)

Lightgreen2k said:


> So you where growing marijuana in the 1960's "around" and born in the 1940's
> And are using the net.
> 
> Those roots are root bound and not a healthy white. The facts are those microbes do make a difference, but I'm sure someone with all those years knows best



Those roots are just fine. Not staged for a photo. Covered in dirt after just being watered. Plant exploded in growth after transplant without need for any microbe product. I'm not saying microbes are not good for a plants growth but hardly worth the ridiculous prices they charge for what is already present in soil and under proper growing conditions will thrive and multiply on their own naturally.


----------



## Herb & Suds (May 18, 2019)

Lightgreen2k said:


> So you where growing marijuana in the 1960's "around" and born in the 1940's
> And are using the net.


I'm Guilty as charged


----------



## xtsho (May 18, 2019)

hotrodharley said:


> Cannabis targeted? Read about more than cannabis. It’s not bullshit. Some may overhype it but the science is real.
> 
> http://smsf-mastergardeners.ucanr.edu/Elkus/The_Effects_of_Mycorrhizal_Fungi_Inoculum_on_Vegetables/



Thank you for linking a real article and study and not something from Maximum Yield or another cannabis publication. I'm not saying microbes are not beneficial. My issue is with the ridiculous prices for products that are specifically targeted at cannabis growers. Any good soil already has microbes and they will continue to grow and multiply if you keep the soil happy. I grow in coco and roots grow like crazy without the need for microbes. Many things are good for growing plants. Many things are good but not needed. Where does one draw the line and stop paying for products? I have great harvests of good weed without those products. Do they help? Some do. Are they necessary? No. Are they worth the money? Not at all. 

And that article was based on studies done outside in the ground growing vegetables not some closet grower dumping twelve bottles of Advanced Nutrients on their plants in HP Promix in a five gallon container. I'm a big fan of the Master Gardeners program and am glad you linked a valid source of information instead of some article from Stoner Science magazine.  I'll admit microbes are good. But I also think that if you create the proper environment that they will grow and thrive on their own without the need for some expensive microbe product. And with the way people grow indoors dumping all kinds of stuff on their plants, flushing every time they check the pH runoff, etc... they are basically wasting any benefit they might get from adding additional microbes. A handful of worms will do the same thing. The problem is that worms can't survive in the toxic soup created when people dump a dozen bottles of stuff into their grow medium.

We might disagree on this but in the end I think we both are after the same thing. Healthy happy plants. There is more than one path to that end. Adding microbes isn't on the path that I'm taking. Others might want to have them in their journey but they are not necessary to reach the final destination.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (May 18, 2019)

xtsho said:


> Thank you for linking a real article and study and not something from Maximum Yield or another cannabis publication. I'm not saying microbes are not beneficial. My issue is with the ridiculous prices for products that are specifically targeted at cannabis growers. Any good soil already has microbes and they will continue to grow and multiply if you keep the soil happy. I grow in coco and roots grow like crazy without the need for microbes. Many things are good for growing plants. Many things are good but not needed. Where does one draw the line and stop paying for products? I have great harvests of good weed without those products. Do they help? Some do. Are they necessary? No. Are they worth the money? Not at all.
> 
> And that article was based on studies done outside in the ground growing vegetables not some closet grower dumping twelve bottles of Advanced Nutrients on their plants in HP Promix in a five gallon container. I'm a big fan of the Master Gardeners program and am glad you linked a valid source of information instead of some article from Stoner Science magazine.  I'll admit microbes are good. But I also think that if you create the proper environment that they will grow and thrive on their own without the need for some expensive microbe product. And with the way people grow indoors dumping all kinds of stuff on their plants, flushing every time they check the pH runoff, etc... they are basically wasting any benefit they might get from adding additional microbes. A handful of worms will do the same thing. The problem is that worms can't survive in the toxic soup created when people dump a dozen bottles of stuff into their grow medium.
> 
> We might disagree on this but in the end I think we both are after the same thing. Healthy happy plants. There is more than one path to that end. Adding microbes isn't on the path that I'm taking. Others might want to have them in their journey but they are not necessary to reach the final destination.


If you have never used them how can one Judge .


----------



## Lightgreen2k (May 18, 2019)

xtsho said:


> Thank you for linking a real article and study and not something from Maximum Yield or another cannabis publication. I'm not saying microbes are not beneficial. My issue is with the ridiculous prices for products that are specifically targeted at cannabis growers. Any good soil already has microbes and they will continue to grow and multiply if you keep the soil happy. I grow in coco and roots grow like crazy without the need for microbes. Many things are good for growing plants. Many things are good but not needed. Where does one draw the line and stop paying for products? I have great harvests of good weed without those products. Do they help? Some do. Are they necessary? No. Are they worth the money? Not at all.
> 
> And that article was based on studies done outside in the ground growing vegetables not some closet grower dumping twelve bottles of Advanced Nutrients on their plants in HP Promix in a five gallon container. I'm a big fan of the Master Gardeners program and am glad you linked a valid source of information instead of some article from Stoner Science magazine.  I'll admit microbes are good. But I also think that if you create the proper environment that they will grow and thrive on their own without the need for some expensive microbe product. And with the way people grow indoors dumping all kinds of stuff on their plants, flushing every time they check the pH runoff, etc... they are basically wasting any benefit they might get from adding additional microbes. A handful of worms will do the same thing. The problem is that worms can't survive in the toxic soup created when people dump a dozen bottles of stuff into their grow medium.
> 
> We might disagree on this but in the end I think we both are after the same thing. Healthy happy plants. There is more than one path to that end. Adding microbes isn't on the path that I'm taking. Others might want to have them in their journey but they are not necessary to reach the final destination.


Secondly where are you getting your info on, from people that add microbes. Many grows on rollitup are no**eidt till and have thriving systems.

No said anything about using advanced nutrients with microbes or 12 bottles. That is what you invented in your head only you think people are doing.

Where do they find you guys from?

There are a plethora of threads on rollitup on other places on the benifits.

You sound cheap or some might say frugal.


----------



## xtsho (May 18, 2019)

Lightgreen2k said:


> Secondly where are you getting your info on, from people that add microbes. Many grow not till and have thriving systems.
> 
> No said anything about using advanced nutrients with microbes or 12 bottles. That is what you invented in your head only you think people are doing.
> 
> ...



Cool. Thanks for the kind words.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (May 18, 2019)

xtsho said:


> Cool. Thanks for the kind words.


Words tongue and cheek on the interwebs as there is no "tone in voice" associated


----------



## xtsho (May 18, 2019)

Lightgreen2k said:


> Words tongue and cheek on the interwebs as there is no "tone in voice" associated


It's all good. I just had a conversation with my niece. She gave me a good schooling. She's doing Post-Graduate studies at a major university and is currently working on a paper about microbes and their potential in the agricultural industry. So yes there is a benefit from microbes but on a larger scale. The way people grow indoors and control every aspect of a plants life in a five gallon container the benefits are likely minimal. Farmers are looking at things like nitrogen fixing microbes as a way to reduce fertilization costs. But they are not buying those expensive products. They are adding things like manure and other components that help accelerate the growth of beneficial microbes. Things they used to do years ago but stopped when chemical fertilizers became widely available. They've found that they're killing the soil and are looking at ways to revive it naturally.

A couple handfuls of EWC should be enough to start microbial growth for growers. You don't need an expensive product marketed to cannabis growers to get microbes in your grow medium.

So yes microbes are good. But they can be cultivated for much less than what people pay for these products targeted towards cannabis growers. Some may say I'm cheap. Well I say yes I am. That's why I have money. I'm not broke and I plan on staying that way. I don't need to pay $25 for a small bag of microbes when I can just use some manure and EWC to make a tea for the soil. The microbes will grow and thrive on their own if I give them the right environment and food, I don't need to pay for anything other than standard amendments anyone mixing soil is going to have on hand.

I didn't mean to come off as an ass but I am what I am...


----------



## doniawon (May 18, 2019)

Just wanted to mention for the 444millionth time .

Recharge is decent stuff!


----------



## eyderbuddy (May 18, 2019)

I don't think microbes are absolutely necessary or that you can't grow without them but in my experience they work to improve plant health, and show visible results within days.

I'm quite the "frugal person" and usually just DIY everything on the cheap side. But then i spent about $25 on microbes... Just to give them a try, i thought... and haven't looked back ever since.

Products like Recharge, Tribus, Mammoth P, Photo Plus... *They just work (yes, i've tried them) when used correctly. *Some may be on the cheap side and some on the expensive side, but that's up to the buyer.


----------



## hotrodharley (May 18, 2019)

xtsho said:


> Thank you for linking a real article and study and not something from Maximum Yield or another cannabis publication. I'm not saying microbes are not beneficial. My issue is with the ridiculous prices for products that are specifically targeted at cannabis growers. Any good soil already has microbes and they will continue to grow and multiply if you keep the soil happy. I grow in coco and roots grow like crazy without the need for microbes. Many things are good for growing plants. Many things are good but not needed. Where does one draw the line and stop paying for products? I have great harvests of good weed without those products. Do they help? Some do. Are they necessary? No. Are they worth the money? Not at all.
> 
> And that article was based on studies done outside in the ground growing vegetables not some closet grower dumping twelve bottles of Advanced Nutrients on their plants in HP Promix in a five gallon container. I'm a big fan of the Master Gardeners program and am glad you linked a valid source of information instead of some article from Stoner Science magazine.  I'll admit microbes are good. But I also think that if you create the proper environment that they will grow and thrive on their own without the need for some expensive microbe product. And with the way people grow indoors dumping all kinds of stuff on their plants, flushing every time they check the pH runoff, etc... they are basically wasting any benefit they might get from adding additional microbes. A handful of worms will do the same thing. The problem is that worms can't survive in the toxic soup created when people dump a dozen bottles of stuff into their grow medium.
> 
> We might disagree on this but in the end I think we both are after the same thing. Healthy happy plants. There is more than one path to that end. Adding microbes isn't on the path that I'm taking. Others might want to have them in their journey but they are not necessary to reach the final destination.


Great White - very good but ridiculously expensive. All we are trying to do is duplicate nature and a natural environment. Including those of us who use peat. I have done enough side by side comparisons and the stuff is a bonus. Cloning - I take my cut. Scrape the outer layer of stem off with the edge of a knife. Split the stem about a half inch and dip in Clonex or honey and then in Mykos. Straight into Black Gold seedling mix in a Dixie cup. Then forget about it except checking to make sure it’s slightly damp. Try it. Works in straight vermiculite as well. 

 

$25 for 12 ounces. It goes a very long way.


----------



## hotrodharley (May 18, 2019)

Herb & Suds said:


> I'm Guilty as charged


Same here. I must know this guy.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (May 18, 2019)

The best I have used is Rootwise.


----------



## Cali.Grown>408 (May 19, 2019)

Best growers in the game reuse their ammended coco soil mixes for years..
you still have to feed your plants/soil but when you reuse your organic soil it’s already full of microbes


----------



## Cali.Grown>408 (May 19, 2019)

Easy way to save is to make your own LAB aka MYCOS then make an ammended soil mix you prefer and reuse it for a few grows..
Just use rice, milk, molasses to make MYCOS -watch a video on it..even if your not doing Korean natural farming you can still use the LAB aka MYCOS with amended soils.
I do an amended coco/vermiculite/compost with rice hulls, kelp meal, oyster shell, crab meal, rock dust, neem/karanja cake, gypsum.
This year I’ve been feeding light primordial solutions rootamentry/sea green/paleo bloom and pluc C from microbe life with homemade LAB.
Depending on the size of your grow it can get a little expensive to buy all of that but you reuse the soil for years. I’m reusing mine from last year but I’m adding more to it this year. Just added worm castings and guano


----------



## DCcan (May 19, 2019)

Aerate a 5 gal bucket of Growstones, EWC,BT, Mykos, molasses for a week to inoculate, then use as microbe reservoirs.
As soon as they hit new soil, they turn gooey and start colonizing. Don't know whats taking hold, but plants love them, root magnets for young plants.

I usually just add some peat, ewc, perlite, guano,lime to old soil, or sift the Growstones out and reuse them. Nothing else can easily colonize them once they are saturated in that stuff, and PH drift from Growstones seems controlled.


----------



## eyderbuddy (May 19, 2019)

DCcan said:


> Aerate a 5 gal bucket of Growstones, EWC,BT, Mykos, molasses for a week to inoculate, then use as microbe reservoirs.
> As soon as they hit new soil, they turn gooey and start colonizing. Don't know whats taking hold, but plants love them, root magnets for young plants.
> 
> I usually just add some peat, ewc, perlite, guano,lime to old soil, or sift the Growstones out and reuse them. Nothing else can easily colonize them once they are saturated in that stuff, and PH drift from Growstones seems controlled.


EWC? BT?


----------



## DCcan (May 19, 2019)

eyderbuddy said:


> EWC? BT?


Earth Worm Castings & Bacillus Thuringiensis to kill crawly gnat grubs


----------



## Lightgreen2k (May 19, 2019)

To continue the conversation I'm seeing a few of you speaking on making your own microbes and that is fine many through aerated compost teas it looks like. 

With this user's question specific to microbes and efficient ones here you Go. 

The Bacillus / Glomus and trichoderma Rates Per Cfu/Gram CannoT be made at home in controlled manner as some of the products I will show in detail. Also lots of species of the above cannot be made at home. (You maybe be able to get a few)

Whichever vehicle you take, it is all about making your plants happy. Good luck.


----------



## KingKush517 (Aug 6, 2020)

eyderbuddy said:


> I don't think microbes are absolutely necessary or that you can't grow without them but in my experience they work to improve plant health, and show visible results within days.
> 
> I'm quite the "frugal person" and usually just DIY everything on the cheap side. But then i spent about $25 on microbes... Just to give them a try, i thought... and haven't looked back ever since.
> 
> Products like Recharge, Tribus, Mammoth P, Photo Plus... *They just work (yes, i've tried them) when used correctly. *Some may be on the cheap side and some on the expensive side, but that's up to the buyer.


I already use recharge and after a LOT of research about Tribus Original I really want to to try it. Do you think recharge and Tribus Original will work well together or are they to similar?


----------



## Stryker427 (Aug 30, 2020)

The advantage of mychorzea and other such stuff is they assist in transport of nutrients to the plant itself. Mychorzea specifically, my understanding, is it helps keeps roots nice and clean. It was explained to me like this: plants have highways in their bodies the same way humans do [veins], we get clogs causing strokes and heart attacks. Beneficial bacteria keeps the plants highway system moving and unclogged. Sorry 4 the elementary explanation. Tarantula is the only thing I've ever used. Some of those products posted sound/look real interesting


----------



## eyderbuddy (Aug 30, 2020)

KingKush517 said:


> I already use recharge and after a LOT of research about Tribus Original I really want to to try it. Do you think recharge and Tribus Original will work well together or are they to similar?


Look at the label.

Tribus only has about 4-5 Strains but has billions of cultures, recharge is a whole mix of over 10 strains including fulvic and molasses etc...

If you're doing hydro then Tribus is the way to go. I'd use Recharge on soil because of the more "organic" make up.

Not related, but i got the chance to try Mykos Xtreme, and it makes plants grow as if they had the biggest pot they could. It's very interesting


----------



## CannaOnerStar (Aug 30, 2020)

Stryker427 said:


> The advantage of mychorzea and other such stuff is they assist in transport of nutrients to the plant itself. Mychorzea specifically, my understanding, is it helps keeps roots nice and clean. It was explained to me like this: plants have highways in their bodies the same way humans do [veins], we get clogs causing strokes and heart attacks. Beneficial bacteria keeps the plants highway system moving and unclogged. Sorry 4 the elementary explanation. Tarantula is the only thing I've ever used. Some of those products posted sound/look real interesting


From my understanding mycos create a sort of symbiotic relationship with roots, which allows them to exchange nutrients efficiently in a way that is beneficial for plant being able to take in nutrients optimally. Beneficials on the other hand i understand work in the soil breaking in dead roots and other dead organic matter in the soil, which shits out nutrients that are in a form easily available for the plant, this also cleans out crap from grow medium that could otherwise have bad bacteria growing in it.


----------



## ChrispyCritter (Aug 30, 2020)

I'm a big fan of microbes and have been since I had absolutely horrible brown slime in DWC and was able to get rid of it and never get it again with Heisenbergs tea. That was a long time ago and I now grow in soil. I use BioAg , ReCharge and Tribus and couldn't be happier. I wouldn't want to grow without them to be honest.


----------



## mackdx (Aug 30, 2020)

What's the opinion on the efficacy of microbes in a DTW coco setup?


----------



## KingKush517 (Sep 1, 2020)

Has anyone used the bloom booster Flower Fuel made by Element Nutrients?


----------



## Cannaman1994 (Sep 2, 2020)

I use fox farm microbe brew...since starting to use it I have notice much faster thicker root growth as well as the plant itself growing much faster..and basically no stress when transplanted they dont stop growing even for a day...jist my current experience and I'm using happy frog so imo out helps wether its in good soil or shit soil


----------



## xtsho (Sep 6, 2020)

Collect and grow your own microbes. It's easy. No need to pay ridiculous prices for what's already all around us.







IMOs


Cho Global Natural Farming, SARRA India




www.cgnfindia.com













How to Multiply Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO 1)


Indigenous microorganisms (IMO) are harvested and produced in various ways for natural farming. Out of five types of NF IMOs, IMO 1 refers to the group of indigenous microorganisms that are produced from microbes collected from forest settings, from around the stubble of harvested rice and...



www.echocommunity.org







http://www.kswcd.org/conference/Dr%20Hoon%20Park%20III%20-%20Indigenous%20Microorganism%28IMO%29.pdf


----------



## newbplantgrower420 (Sep 6, 2020)

Humic acid is food for microbes right?

So theoretically after flip or beginning of veg. I could pour a healthy dose of microbes one time into my rez and then keep them alive by continuously pouring in humic acid


----------



## CannaOnerStar (Sep 6, 2020)

xtsho said:


> No need to pay ridiculous prices


I bought bacterex from biotabs like 8 months ago or so. Grew few plants with it and used it many times the recommended dose. I still have about 1/3rd left and it cost about 35 bucks.

I dont think the price is ridiculous. If i need to spend more than hour thinking and doing the work to get the beneficials to easily handled container where they last me at least a year of use(and as easily used as commercial products) and unless the beneficials i make myself are not at least as good, then its not worth spending the time doing it for me.

I get it if you want to do it as a hobby, im sure its cool and i respect people doing things themselves as much as possible, but to suggest that its THE sensible way and buying is only waste of money, well that is just nonsense.


----------



## getogrow (Sep 6, 2020)

newbplantgrower420 said:


> Humic acid is food for microbes right?
> 
> So theoretically after flip or beginning of veg. I could pour a healthy dose of microbes one time into my rez and then keep them alive by continuously pouring in humic acid


all of it is symbolic with the plant. the plant gives the microbes carbs to eat.... That happens without us. Then we feed the microbes with molasses as their main food source but they have more to eat then just that. 
To answer your question, yes you can do that. the plant will keep them alive even if you dont feed them. when we feed them , we hope that they multiply and stay happy.
EWC is the best organisms you can get. or even good soil. Its loaded with good bacteria. 

Myco is NOT lactic acid bacteria.... so LAB aka myco dont make sense. Mycorrizea is a fungi , not a bacteria. It lives inside the roots of the host and spreads out , causing the roots to spread out too.....if there is plenty of food in the soil then the myco WILL DIE. The plant only needs the myco if its having problems getting to the food in the soil. Bottom line: myco will not help you if your soil is already rich and healthy.


----------



## getogrow (Sep 6, 2020)

CannaOnerStar said:


> I bought bacterex from biotabs like 8 months ago or so. Grew few plants with it and used it many times the recommended dose. I still have about 1/3rd left and it cost about 35 bucks.
> 
> I dont think the price is ridiculous. If i need to spend more than hour thinking and doing the work to get the beneficials to easily handled container where they last me at least a year of use(and as easily used as commercial products) and unless the beneficials i make myself are not at least as good, then its not worth spending the time doing it for me.
> 
> I get it if you want to do it as a hobby, im sure its cool and i respect people doing things themselves as much as possible, but to suggest that its THE sensible way and buying is only waste of money, well that is just nonsense.


if your in soil then hes right. its a waste of money. Any healthy soil you make or buy is full of bennies. These bennies are great but they are not hard to make or get. (a cup of EWC will have more live bennies in it then any bottle on the market. sure you'll have to use a lab to see what kind is doing what but thats organics. )


----------



## newbplantgrower420 (Sep 6, 2020)

getogrow said:


> all of it is symbolic with the plant. the plant gives the microbes carbs to eat.... That happens without us. Then we feed the microbes with molasses as their main food source but they have more to eat then just that.
> To answer your question, yes you can do that. the plant will keep them alive even if you dont feed them. when we feed them , we hope that they multiply and stay happy.
> EWC is the best organisms you can get. or even good soil. Its loaded with good bacteria.
> 
> Myco is NOT lactic acid bacteria.... so LAB aka myco dont make sense. Mycorrizea is a fungi , not a bacteria. It lives inside the roots of the host and spreads out , causing the roots to spread out too.....if there is plenty of food in the soil then the myco WILL DIE. The plant only needs the myco if its having problems getting to the food in the soil. Bottom line: myco will not help you if your soil is already rich and healthy.


So I use myco in a hydro setting. Theres no way to keep the myco alive? I would have to continuously keep feeding it weekly/biweekly?


----------



## getogrow (Sep 6, 2020)

newbplantgrower420 said:


> So I use myco in a hydro setting. Theres no way to keep the myco alive? I would have to continuously keep feeding it weekly/biweekly?


im against using it in hydro but that dont mean anything. 
The myco cannot survive if there is plenty of food in the medium. Its only purpose is to help the host find food. if the food is abundent then the myco has no reason to keep helping. (it mat not die but it will go dormant or die when its not needed) 

If you are trying to keep myco alive then were not on the same page. The plant is all that matters.


----------



## CannaOnerStar (Sep 6, 2020)

getogrow said:


> if your in soil then hes right. its a waste of money. Any healthy soil you make or buy is full of bennies. These bennies are great but they are not hard to make or get. (a cup of EWC will have more live bennies in it then any bottle on the market. sure you'll have to use a lab to see what kind is doing what but thats organics. )


If there would be enough in the soil to begin with, then it would be as pointless to add self made or bought. Self making will likely require so much time, that i dont personally see saving, i see waste of time rather than waste of money and id rather spend that amount of money than that amount of time for nothing.

Therefore your argument is pointless if you jsut say that there are enough of them in soil, so buying is pointless.

However i personally use them in a mix that is mostly coco, perlite etc and very little if any soil. Whether they are pointless in that is a whole another argument not related to spending time vs money.


----------



## newbplantgrower420 (Sep 6, 2020)

getogrow said:


> im against using it in hydro but that dont mean anything.
> The myco cannot survive if there is plenty of food in the medium. Its only purpose is to help the host find food. if the food is abundent then the myco has no reason to keep helping. (it mat not die but it will go dormant or die when its not needed)
> 
> If you are trying to keep myco alive then were not on the same page. The plant is all that matters.


Makes sense. Ill stop using it once I run out of this 2.2lb Mykos bag.


----------



## xtsho (Sep 6, 2020)

CannaOnerStar said:


> If there would be enough in the soil to begin with, then it would be as pointless to add self made or bought. Self making will likely require so much time, that i dont personally see saving, i see waste of time rather than waste of money and id rather spend that amount of money than that amount of time for nothing.
> 
> Therefore your argument is pointless if you jsut say that there are enough of them in soil, so buying is pointless.
> 
> However i personally use them in a mix that is mostly coco, perlite etc and very little if any soil. Whether they are pointless in that is a whole another argument not related to spending time vs money.


There are already enough microbes in decent soil that will continue to die of and multiply at the same time. There are countless scientific studies that have shown the rate of reproduction of soil microbes. Many of them were done to dispel the myth that chlorinated/chloramine tap water killed the microbes. The studies all showed that while some microbes did die they rebounded within days and the microbe population suffered no ill effects from tap water.

Now where I'm going with this is that any decent soil will have organic matter in it. That matter is what feeds the microbes in the soil. As they break it down into food for the plant they multiply, die, etc... in a never ending cycle. There is no need to add additional microbes as long as you have decent soil full of organic matter. And as @getogrow stated EWC is full of good stuff and microbes. 



The importance of soil organic matter


----------



## Medskunk (Sep 6, 2020)

Added microbes saved my first two grows of 7 plants. In conjunction with proper waterings. Not that it wouldnt get better if i just watered properly but now after several grows i understand that they wouldnt bounce back at the same pace. 

Mycos help like hell with transplants. Zero stress.


----------



## getogrow (Sep 6, 2020)

CannaOnerStar said:


> If there would be enough in the soil to begin with, then it would be as pointless to add self made or bought. Self making will likely require so much time, that i dont personally see saving, i see waste of time rather than waste of money and id rather spend that amount of money than that amount of time for nothing.
> 
> Therefore your argument is pointless if you jsut say that there are enough of them in soil, so buying is pointless.
> 
> However i personally use them in a mix that is mostly coco, perlite etc and very little if any soil. Whether they are pointless in that is a whole another argument not related to spending time vs money.


i dont really have an argument sir  
Starting in a healthy SOIL, the plant will not use most of the additional bennies and fungi we throw in the mix although im not against the use of them at any time. 
Starting in dirt or soiless mixes such as coco and peat will often lack the microbiology that we want and the plants thrive in..... so yes i would recommend using "bennies in a bag" to help jumpstart the process. If you dont have a worm bin or 10 or compost then its probably easier for you to just use store bought and you probably get a more diverse array of microbes/fungi. 
This is all stuff we love and see as cool but in reality , you dont really need any extra bennies. hydro or soil.
Im convinced , with no scientific evidence , that its the "nature" that produces the terps i like the most, so ill continue to use additional bennies an myco but i highly doubt thc is any higher or yield is much better from using EWC/good used soil/microbe products. thats my 8 cents of dummyness to add.


----------



## getogrow (Sep 6, 2020)

Medskunk said:


> Mycos help like hell with transplants. Zero stress.


Again, i use um and love um but im positive its not the mycos giving you zero stress....your just getting good at it and they are showing it. I always use added mycos when transplanting because i believe they help down the road and would like to get them established in the roots early. That being said , i do not think that would help with stress from transplanting. Mycorrizae thrives on roots in depleted soil/s. (the plant feeds the myco and the myco grows, making the roots "bigger" and longer so they can reach out further in search of food for the plant and if the plant has plenty of food right there in the pot then the myco will just go dormant or die) 

i never got my grade 9 , so i talk a lil fucked up and grammer is on par with a 3 year old but i know what im trying to say is correct


----------



## Medskunk (Sep 6, 2020)

A few times when i forgot to dip the roots in the powder it went a bit dodgy i guess. But maybe like you say. Maybe i got prejudice, many parameters around but i dont think ill change this routine. Even if they die like someone said above ---(edit. or like you say lol sr)--- Ive shredded a quarter of the soil with some roots while transplanting it from the solo cup put the myco, all done not a problem. Yeeha

No i understand your grammar well bud


----------



## getogrow (Sep 7, 2020)

Medskunk said:


> A few times when i forgot to dip the roots in the powder it went a bit dodgy i guess. But maybe like you say. Maybe i got prejudice, many parameters around but i dont think ill change this routine. Even if they die like someone said above ---(edit. or like you say lol sr)--- Ive shredded a quarter of the soil with some roots while transplanting it from the solo cup put the myco, all done not a problem. Yeeha
> 
> No i understand your grammar well bud


i understand your ways too... dont change it if you like it. All in all im am a huge fan of myco.


----------



## eyderbuddy (Sep 7, 2020)

getogrow said:


> i dont really have an argument sir
> Starting in a healthy SOIL, the plant will not use most of the additional bennies and fungi we throw in the mix although im not against the use of them at any time.
> Starting in dirt or soiless mixes such as coco and peat will often lack the microbiology that we want and the plants thrive in..... so yes i would recommend using "bennies in a bag" to help jumpstart the process. If you dont have a worm bin or 10 or compost then its probably easier for you to just use store bought and you probably get a more diverse array of microbes/fungi.
> This is all stuff we love and see as cool but in reality , you dont really need any extra bennies. hydro or soil.
> Im convinced , with no scientific evidence , that its the "nature" that produces the terps i like the most, so ill continue to use additional bennies an myco but i highly doubt thc is any higher or yield is much better from using EWC/good used soil/microbe products. thats my 8 cents of dummyness to add.


I sort of agree, but i'd love to add my 2 cents

I think nothing beats a well cared for soil that's perfectly suited to grow bud... Lets be honest, the optimal natural habitat when it's functioning properly is the best thing ever.

But on the production side, the way plant functions is very well defined. You can only accomplish so much by providing nutrients if the root zone isn't optimal for plant growth. And we also scientifically know that certain bacteria (like for example, the ones in mammoth p) provide certain benefits that will be really hard to get outside of a carefully controlled environment.

Is it impossible to do it outside using soil and composting techniques, and naturally available bacteria and fungi? Certainly not. 

My point simply being that having tested and certified microorganism in a bottle is ridiculously convenient. Specially for the hydro or semi hydro grower.

Maybe like everyone else, i also started without using microbes, and i had decent harvests without them. But using microbes made me understand so much more, like the dynamics of a healthy environment. This changed the way i grew completely, and i ended up with much much better bud =]


----------



## getogrow (Sep 7, 2020)

eyderbuddy said:


> I sort of agree, but i'd love to add my 2 cents
> 
> My point simply being that having tested and certified microorganism in a bottle is ridiculously convenient. Specially for the hydro or semi hydro grower


Bud , when im around your 2 cents is more then welcome. no one knows it all and a few debates here and there will fill our heads with useful info for future use.
i have nothing to debate here. "having tested and certified microorganism in a bottle is ridiculously convenient" Thats very true. I do believe you can get all those beneficials in good compost or ewc but for a numbers guy , you are spot on. most growers are numbers guys/gals , thats just how most do it. Thats the most effeciant way for you to add them.... Without an in house lab , i cannot debate anything in organics.


----------



## SCJedi (Sep 7, 2020)

xtsho said:


> I'll keep my money in my bank account. Others can spend all they want on unnecessary products. I can guarantee my grows will be just as good as theirs without the unneeded products..


I mostly do the same. Occasionally I'll walk over the the biggest tree in the park across the street from our house and brew a handful of the soil/bark in molasses water. Why buy if I can look at mature forestry and mimic what it thrives in?


----------



## getogrow (Sep 7, 2020)

SCJedi said:


> I mostly do the same. Occasionally I'll walk over the the biggest tree in the park across the street from our house and brew a handful of the soil/bark in molasses water. Why buy if I can look at mature forestry and mimic what it thrives in?


This is exactly where i come from.


----------



## xtsho (Sep 7, 2020)

SCJedi said:


> I mostly do the same. Occasionally I'll walk over the the biggest tree in the park across the street from our house and brew a handful of the soil/bark in molasses water. Why buy if I can look at mature forestry and mimic what it thrives in?


Plus they will be Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO). I've been looking into Korean Natural Farming KNF and JADAM natural farming. Really interesting stuff and the path that I'm going to take with my vegetable gardening and cannabis cultivation. 









Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO) • Insteading


Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO) could be the bioremediation we need to save our plants and animals from both polluted land and potential disease.




insteading.com


----------



## Oakiey (Sep 7, 2020)

I use it, still not sure if it's a waste of money, I know that stuff you get to start an aquarium is useless, nothing really alive in those bottles, maybe just a little ammonia to feed what occurs naturally


----------



## getogrow (Sep 8, 2020)

Oakiey said:


> I use it, still not sure if it's a waste of money, I know that stuff you get to start an aquarium is useless, nothing really alive in those bottles, maybe just a little ammonia to feed what occurs naturally


See, i was always under the impression that the stuff in the bottle worked great for fish tanks. guess i was wrong? ive always been a bit leary of liquid microbes, i suppose thjats why. 
Ive never kept exotic fish or even finicky ones. although my most recent tank was a lake tangie tank and it was a bit harder to keep all the fish happy then it was just keeping oscars , guppies, ect...
thanks for that info.


----------



## SCJedi (Sep 8, 2020)

xtsho said:


> Plus they will be Indigenous Microorganisms (IMO). I've been looking into Korean Natural Farming KNF and JADAM natural farming. Really interesting stuff and the path that I'm going to take with my vegetable gardening and cannabis cultivation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I watched a really cool youtube video years ago where a guy puts rice in pantyhose and buries it about 12" down next to a big healthy tree. He comes back about 10-12 months later, digs it up and brews it into tea.


----------



## aridynomyco (Oct 20, 2020)

1joeblowuknow said:


> I have limited time but want to reach as many of the influencers as possible. For starters pls forgive my grammar. ok here we go.
> 
> Ok so as everyone is finding out microbes and parasitic fungi are powerful tools that are allowing growers to achieve higher yields with stronger plants. We are finding that using microbes and fungi or beenies or what ever you want to call are very safe and effective ways to prevent and attack insects and disease.
> 
> ...


Have you ever tried DYNOMYCO? It has 900 propagules/gram of 2 species of endomycorrhizal fungi which have been scientifically proven to form a symbiotic relationship with cannabis. Endomycorrhizal fungi have been proven to benefit cannabis whereas ectomycorrhizae do not colonise cannabis roots and therefor don't benefit the growth of the plant. Would be glad to answer any questions and provide more info. Feel free to reach out !

Happy growing


----------



## getogrow (Oct 20, 2020)

aridynomyco said:


> Have you ever tried DYNOMYCO? It has 900 propagules/gram of 2 species of endomycorrhizal fungi which have been scientifically proven to form a symbiotic relationship with cannabis. Endomycorrhizal fungi have been proven to benefit cannabis whereas ectomycorrhizae do not colonise cannabis roots and therefor don't benefit the growth of the plant. Would be glad to answer any questions and provide more info. Feel free to reach out !
> 
> Happy growing


Thats it ? all it contains is Endo mycorrizea ? Why so limited on microbes ? Myco is great but its way overrated. Read what it actually does an see why most folks cannot use the extra. Its ok , im one of the label dummies. i buy myco to add when its not needed but i do it because we just dont know whats in the mix. So im guilty of wasting money just like the rest of us.


----------



## aridynomyco (Oct 20, 2020)

With no other additional additives into DYNOMYCO we are still getting better results because of the high concentrations of mycorrhizal fungi.

To say that these mycorrhizal fungi don't do anything is inaccurate and could be due to the fact that either you experienced a product with an inferior propagule count or that of these propagules maybe only a small percent were actually active/viable (able to achieve inoculation). 

The difference with DYNOMYCO is that we have high concentrations of these two species of endomycorrhizae which we know do the magic when it comes to cannabis plants. Therefor we don't need to add a whole bunch of other ingredients to achieve these results which other companies have to do.


----------



## getogrow (Oct 20, 2020)

aridynomyco said:


> With no other additional additives into DYNOMYCO we are still getting better results because of the high concentrations of mycorrhizal fungi.
> 
> To say that these mycorrhizal fungi don't do anything is inaccurate and could be due to the fact that either you experienced a product with an inferior propagule count or that of these propagules maybe only a small percent were actually active/viable (able to achieve inoculation).
> 
> The difference with DYNOMYCO is that we have high concentrations of these two species of endomycorrhizae which we know do the magic when it comes to cannabis plants. Therefor we don't need to add a whole bunch of other ingredients to achieve these results which other companies have to do.


Other companies do it because its what we want. Have you ever seen an organic grower using *only* mycorrizea fungi to help aid in uptake ? Oh , you must be marketing this product for hydro guys. I'd LOVE to see your research involving myco and hydro!

I never said myco does not do anything. I simply said , most of the time, extra is not needed. All good bag soils contain it. Myco thrives the most when the plants are low on food. Plants feed the myco , then in return , the myco makes the "roots bigger" and able to reach farther to find food. If there is plenty of food in your soil then the myco will die or go dormant.
There thats enough free info for you today sir!

Happy selling!
Soil


----------



## MICHI-CAN (Oct 20, 2020)

getogrow said:


> Other companies do it because its what we want. Have you ever seen an organic grower using *only* mycorrizea fungi to help aid in uptake ? Oh , you must be marketing this product for hydro guys. I'd LOVE to see your research involving myco and hydro!
> 
> I never said myco does not do anything. I simply said , most of the time, extra is not needed. All good bag soils contain it. Myco thrives the most when the plants are low on food. Plants feed the myco , then in return , the myco makes the "roots bigger" and able to reach farther to find food. If there is plenty of food in your soil then the myco will die or go dormant.
> There thats enough free info for you today sir!
> ...


Wonder if they would sponsor a head to head against my dormant white fungus harvested from under White Oak bark on 2 year seasoned cut wood? Microbes are free. And local is always best. Capitalism.??


----------



## Rurumo (Oct 20, 2020)

getogrow said:


> Other companies do it because its what we want. Have you ever seen an organic grower using *only* mycorrizea fungi to help aid in uptake ? Oh , you must be marketing this product for hydro guys. I'd LOVE to see your research involving myco and hydro!
> 
> I never said myco does not do anything. I simply said , most of the time, extra is not needed. All good bag soils contain it. Myco thrives the most when the plants are low on food. Plants feed the myco , then in return , the myco makes the "roots bigger" and able to reach farther to find food. If there is plenty of food in your soil then the myco will die or go dormant.
> There thats enough free info for you today sir!
> ...


Some products simply go for a more is better/shotgun approach to microbes, but it's more complicated than that. For example there is plenty of evidence that shows applying trichoderma sp at the same time as mycorrhizae is not optimal. Here is an interesting discussion on the topic: https://www.researchgate.net/post/Does_Trichoderma_interfere_with_mycorrhizae_root_colonization. Now, as you can see, there are people on both sides of the debate, but many soil scientists recommend applying mycorrhizae first, followed by the trichoderma sp at least a week later. So there is certainly a place in the market for a 100% mycorrhizae product. We are just in the beginning stages of understanding the soil microbiome. That said, I do think these products work, and are quite beneficial judging from past side by side grows I've done. It's entirely true that none of these products are "needed." Some people here just say KISS and brush off the research, and that's their prerogative, but reading the research papers is all part of the fun for some of us. For example, I'm a huge fan of Southern Ag Biological Fungicide, aka hydroguard, but bacillus amyloliquefaciens does so much more than just act as a "fungicide." I was just reading this prior to finding this topic and thought some might find it interesting: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1049964417301329. Disease inhibition, increased germination rate, increased root mass, production of auxins, etc. Anyway, that's all I have! I'm curious about the Dynomyco product due to the amount of propagules it contains-practically double over most of the other myco products, like Great White. I may try it and follow up with a trichoderma product for my next grow, and do a side by side with untreated plants just for fun. Have a great day folks!


----------



## aridynomyco (Oct 20, 2020)

getogrow said:


> Other companies do it because its what we want. Have you ever seen an organic grower using *only* mycorrizea fungi to help aid in uptake ? Oh , you must be marketing this product for hydro guys. I'd LOVE to see your research involving myco and hydro!
> 
> I never said myco does not do anything. I simply said , most of the time, extra is not needed. All good bag soils contain it. Myco thrives the most when the plants are low on food. Plants feed the myco , then in return , the myco makes the "roots bigger" and able to reach farther to find food. If there is plenty of food in your soil then the myco will die or go dormant.
> There thats enough free info for you today sir!
> ...


If only a few ingredients can do the task of many, outperform them and it's at a lower price, why then not go for it? We're not about producing something where most of the ingredients don't do anything. After 30 years of R&D, we've seen that our ingredient list can deliver a significant difference on its own. If you want to add bacteria or other ingredients along with it, that's your decision.

You certainly could use it in a hydro system, though it would depend on your set up. Ideally though it's for soil, coco, peat or a combination of those (and that is where our research has been focused on) and you could use it in rockwool as well.


----------



## KK26 (Oct 20, 2020)

Ecothrive Charge. 

Beetle shit mainly I believe and it works wonders.


----------



## MICHI-CAN (Oct 20, 2020)

KK26 said:


> Ecothrive Charge.
> 
> Beetle shit mainly I believe and it works wonders.


Try bug carcasses collected under a bug zapper. All the free bacteria you you need. And carbs to boot. 

A million ways. Just how much money you want to spend and how true to local,native organics you wish to be.


----------



## Northwood (Oct 21, 2020)

Funny thread in a way if applied to organic grows without available additives of salts, because a plant cannot grow in soil without bacteria. Heck, soil wouldn't exist either! So yeah, the effect part of the original question is that plants exist in the world. Good effect I'd say!

The cost of bacteria in most cases is zero. They inhabit the air, our food, the surfaces of everything we touch. They inhabit bagged white flour sold at Walmart along with yeast and a whole bunch of other creatures, as every sourdough maker knows. But they're especially numerous in both in population and variety of species in healthy rich soil. We aren't talking 2 dozen listed bacteria on an expensive bag of inoculant. There are literally 10's of thousands of species of bacteria that can be found in a teaspoon of even mediocre field soil outdoors. The only inoculant that wasn't free for me is Rhizobium sp. for my cover crops because of the variety of non-local legumes I like to try. If all I grew was hairy vetch or bird's foot trefoil, I probably wouldn't need them.

The issue too with inoculants is that some people think it's the bacteria they added that make the difference. But the amount of bacteria is so tiny considering the questionable viability of many of the species listed on the bag, it would do nothing. Soil rich in organic matter can easily contain 1 billion bacteria per level teaspoon. So you'll need to keep them alive and have them multiply until they take up a significant percentage of your soil biomass. And there's no way to keep bacteria occurring naturally from competing with them.

To use bacteria, take soil and add water until moist. Keep at room temperature, allow air to get to it, and never let it dry out completely. To multiply them, add food they can chew on. Root exudates will help with this too, so important especially with no-till to always have something putting its live roots into the soil for optimal activity.


----------



## Rurumo (Oct 23, 2020)

This was an interesting article about bacillus subtilis https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fphys.2017.00667/full. I have a 15 year old vial of Natto starter that seems to have lost no potency at all after I used it to make a batch of natto in my yogurt maker last month. Northwood is right, soil is so loaded it's hard to imagine that the stuff we add to our mixes and teas really makes much difference, but then again, bacillus subtilis does an incredible job colonizing soybeans in 24 hours! I think people are on the right track with aerated compost teas. Seedlings treated with bacillus sp have always seemed to just grow much better and have healthier root systems than the plants I grow without it, I had no idea that the bacteria creates phytohormones directly-from that article: _"In addition, the synthesis of indole-3-acetic acid, gibberellic acid and1-aminocyclopropane-1-carboxylate (ACC) deaminase by Bacillus regulates the intracellular phytohormone metabolism and increases plant stress tolerance. Cell-wall-degrading substances, such as chitosanase, protease, cellulase, glucanase, lipopeptides and hydrogen cyanide from Bacillus spp. damage the pathogenic bacteria, fungi, nematodes, viruses and pests to control their populations in plants and agricultural lands." _

It's just interesting to me how this microorganism can be so beneficial to both plants and humans in such diverse ways. I may dump some natto in one of my tomato transplant holes next year and see what happens.


----------



## ChrispyCritter (Oct 23, 2020)

I understand the general idea that it is or at least may be unnecessary to add any additional microbiology to a properly made and maintained soil, but what about soil that can use a push in the right direction? Something that will help balance ph, and make nutrients more available in soil that is deficient from lockout? Or just make phosphorous more available for uptake in flower instead of dumping high phosphorous additives that do more harm than good? What I use makes up for what I lack as a grower I know that but I honestly think beneficial organisms even if I have to add them are well worth the relatively small expense it adds to my organic soil grow. Thanks


----------



## Northwood (Oct 23, 2020)

ChrispyCritter said:


> I understand the general idea that it is or at least may be unnecessary to add any additional microbiology to a properly made and maintained soil, but what about soil that can use a push in the right direction? Something that will help balance ph, and make nutrients more available in soil that is deficient from lockout? Or just make phosphorous more available for uptake in flower instead of dumping high phosphorous additives that do more harm than good? What I use makes up for what I lack as a grower I know that but I honestly think beneficial organisms even if I have to add them are well worth the relatively small expense it adds to my organic soil grow. Thanks


That's the plant's job, isn't it? Doesn't the plant choose what species of bacteria to keep around by sending them protein signals through their root exudates? And for protecting the plant from enemies giving it nutrients on-demand, in return they get the most tasty: carbon (sugar!). Yum yum.


----------



## getogrow (Oct 24, 2020)

Northwood said:


> That's the plant's job, isn't it? Doesn't the plant choose what species of bacteria to keep around by sending them protein signals through their root exudates? And for protecting the plant from enemies giving it nutrients on-demand, in return they get the most tasty: carbon (sugar!). Yum yum.


I agree. Its the plants job but what if your soil is lacking different bacterias? (lacking is probably not the right word) You buy um or make um at home and add um to your soil. *Then *the plant can be much more picky about which exact bacterias/fungi to keep a relationship with. much broader range of bacteria. 
Just my thoughts. all opinions!


----------



## Northwood (Oct 24, 2020)

getogrow said:


> I agree. Its the plants job but what if your soil is lacking different bacterias? (lacking is probably not the right word) You buy um or make um at home and add um to your soil. *Then *the plant can be much more picky about which exact bacterias/fungi to keep a relationship with. much broader range of bacteria.
> Just my thoughts. all opinions!


Quality compost and worm castings that we add to our base mix introduce 10's of thousands of bacterial species, and protozoans too. For sure acrid 200 year-old peat moss doesn't contain a great variety of micro species, so inoculation is necessary if we want to quickly introduce more diversity for our plants to work with. Probably the best inoculant would be field soil taken from the rhizosphere of very healthy growing plants in late spring, but then we risk introducing unwelcome pests into our tent unless we cycle it through our worm bin or compost pile first. But even a mulch of straw or hay adds all kinds of species of bacteria and fungi. 

A commercial lab cultured bacteria inoculant really shouldn't be necessary except in cases where we grow a cover crop with a new legume that requires a specific Rhizobium species to make nice nitrogen fixing nodules. Using treated/coated seeds simplifies thing quite a bit.


----------



## getogrow (Oct 25, 2020)

Well said sir! very informative.


----------



## dirtfromohio (Apr 13, 2021)

Northwood said:


> *The issue too with inoculants is that some people think it's the bacteria they added that make the difference.* But the amount of bacteria is so tiny considering the questionable viability of many of the species listed on the bag, it would do nothing. Soil rich in organic matter can easily contain 1 billion bacteria per level teaspoon. * So you'll need to keep them alive and have them multiply until they take up a significant percentage of your soil biomass.* And there's no way to keep bacteria occurring naturally from competing with them.


There's a particular product on the market that's really popular and has a handful of beneficial bacteria species, a handful of mycorrhizae species, and handful of trichoderma species...and then some ingredients that feed those bacteria, like kelp, humus and fulvic acids, and molasses. It's such a weird mix of things that it seems like an entirely wasteful product but I've observed the difference it makes with my own eyes. And when I was comparing ingredients of different products, I decided to discontinue the use of that product and use an alternate product that had an overlapping use case. It was GH Floralicious and shared ingredients with said product outside of the bacteria, mycorrhizae and trichoderma. And when I discontinued said product and replaced it with GH Floralicious I noticed no discernable difference in the performance of the plant.

Without a control, my completely anecdotal guess is that I have a healthy microbiome in my soil and I'm doing decent at maintaining that health. Said product was only effective in this soil because of the things feeding the microbes and not the microbes itself, else I should have noticed a downturn, significant or not, in the growth of the plant once I discontinued the application of the microbes. But it continued growing at a pace at least on par with the growth it expressed while being treated with said product. I haven't yet reapplied said product since and the plant continues to thrive as I continue to feed GH Floralicious. I'm guessing feeding the bacteria is way more important than just adding more.

Not only this, but most of these microbe additives are a joke. There are very few that live up to the label promise. Oregon Department of Agriculture runs some testing on submitted products. They haven't updated in a few years that I can tell but results from products tested between 2015-2018 are available here. Great White tests poorly if anyone is curious. Xtreme Gardening Mykos isn't great either as far as the label guarantee but better than many others. Lots of other products listed but those two popular ones stuck out to me.

I think we use these completely wrong. If you want to use a mycorrhizae inoculate your seedlings with it. Beneficial bacteria? Inoculate your soil with it when the plant is a seedling or before you ever even put a plant in it. After this I feel like it's a waste to apply to the same plant in the same pot. I guess there's nothing wrong with applying these products at the start of a new grow but why do we hamper on nute companies for telling us to use double the amount of product necessary but we love the shit out of these "organics" companies doing us the same way while they tell us to water this stuff in every week? It's usually these "organic" companies taking the most advantage these days. I mean half the stuff I see at the hydro shop anymore is a cash grab. It probably works, but so does another product that's cheaper but doesn't say "organic" on it. Still comes in the same plastic jug, vegans.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Apr 14, 2021)

dirtfromohio said:


> There's a particular product on the market that's really popular and has a handful of beneficial bacteria species, a handful of mycorrhizae species, and handful of trichoderma species...and then some ingredients that feed those bacteria, like kelp, humus and fulvic acids, and molasses. It's such a weird mix of things that it seems like an entirely wasteful product but I've observed the difference it makes with my own eyes. And when I was comparing ingredients of different products, I decided to discontinue the use of that product and use an alternate product that had an overlapping use case. It was GH Floralicious and shared ingredients with said product outside of the bacteria, mycorrhizae and trichoderma. And when I discontinued said product and replaced it with GH Floralicious I noticed no discernable difference in the performance of the plant.
> 
> Without a control, my completely anecdotal guess is that I have a healthy microbiome in my soil and I'm doing decent at maintaining that health. Said product was only effective in this soil because of the things feeding the microbes and not the microbes itself, else I should have noticed a downturn, significant or not, in the growth of the plant once I discontinued the application of the microbes. But it continued growing at a pace at least on par with the growth it expressed while being treated with said product. I haven't yet reapplied said product since and the plant continues to thrive as I continue to feed GH Floralicious. I'm guessing feeding the bacteria is way more important than just adding more.
> 
> ...


What was the name of the Original Product You spoke of. This thread is to inform and discuss products with people.


----------



## Medskunk (Apr 14, 2021)

Lightgreen2k said:


> What was the name of the Original Product You spoke of. This thread is to inform and discuss products with people.


With that kind of marketing i bet is urb. Makes me feel better anyway lol


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Apr 14, 2021)

aridynomyco said:


> Have you ever tried DYNOMYCO? It has 900 propagules/gram of 2 species of endomycorrhizal fungi which have been scientifically proven to form a symbiotic relationship with cannabis. Endomycorrhizal fungi have been proven to benefit cannabis whereas ectomycorrhizae do not colonise cannabis roots and therefor don't benefit the growth of the plant. Would be glad to answer any questions and provide more info. Feel free to reach out !
> 
> Happy growing


What does your bottle have in it. I'd like to compare it to a competitor and see why your brand is better or not, or comparable.


----------



## Northwood (Apr 14, 2021)

dirtfromohio said:


> I'm guessing feeding the bacteria is way more important than just adding more.


Most bacteria will double their population every 20 minutes provided they have space, food, and favorable conditions. Within a few days microbial biomass (living and dead) should make up a significant volume of your soil. Keeping things sterile is a lot harder than keeping things non-sterile, so I have no idea how anyone could be killing their soil bacteria thus requiring repeated inoculations. Not to mention what reinoculation will do if the grower just ends up killing those too. What is the purpose again, other than experimental microbial torture? And for those who can't keep bacteria alive, how do they manage to keep a cannabis plant alive? Mysteries abound!


----------



## xtsho (Apr 14, 2021)

I've started adding microbes to my soil. But I just use the local ones collected myself. They only cost a handful of brown rice and brown sugar. They are going to perform the same function as any expensive product on the market. I'll never pay a dime for any of the overpriced products aggressively marketed to cannabis growers.


----------



## OVH (Apr 14, 2021)

Once you get a good culture in soil it’s the best(I’m biased). When I re-amend I mix in malted barley with rice hulls and top dress with it, I end up with this. I add leaves with organic inputs and they’re gone in 3-4 weeks. The whole soil goes back to a normal looking state with in 6-8 weeks. It probably costs me not even $10 to amend a 27 gallon tote


----------



## getogrow (Apr 14, 2021)

OVH said:


> Once you get a good culture in soil it’s the best(I’m biased). When I re-amend I mix in malted barley with rice hulls and top dress with it, I end up with this. I add leaves with organic inputs and they’re gone in 3-4 weeks. The whole soil goes back to a normal looking state with in 6-8 weeks. It probably costs me not even $10 to amend a 27 gallon tote
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you guys turning that soil every once in awhile or are you basically just letting the bacteria breed at that point ?


----------



## dirtfromohio (Apr 14, 2021)

Lightgreen2k said:


> What was the name of the Original Product You spoke of. This thread is to inform and discuss products with people.


Real Growers Recharge


----------



## OVH (Apr 14, 2021)

getogrow said:


> Are you guys turning that soil every once in awhile or are you basically just letting the bacteria breed at that point ?


After I mix in amendments and barley/rice hulls I wet the soil and then let it sit(cook) for 2 months. Sometimes less. I never touch or break up the fungal web until after that period. Which by then the microbes have digested and broke down my inputs. I then fill my pots up.


----------



## Northwood (May 2, 2021)

It looks to be more fungi action than bacterial, if visuals have anything to do with it. No idea what that fungi is though, although I could take some guesses.


----------



## getogrow (May 8, 2021)

Northwood said:


> It looks to be more fungi action than bacterial, if visuals have anything to do with it. No idea what that fungi is though, although I could take some guesses.


This is where im lost at. Visuals show fungal activity. The lack of aerating the mix makes me think the "good bacteria" is not populating and growing.

I have always turned my composting piles for more air so i would never _see_ fungi grow. Am i lacking fungi or are you lacking bacteria ? or maybe both together is best ?

Edit: i suppose the proof is easy enough to find. If your organic inputs are turned into plant food within a few weeks then its working ....


----------



## MICHI-CAN (May 8, 2021)

getogrow said:


> This is where im lost at. Visuals show fungal activity. The lack of aerating the mix makes me think the "good bacteria" is not populating and growing.
> 
> I have always turned my composting piles for more air so i would never _see_ fungi grow. Am i lacking fungi or are you lacking bacteria ? or maybe both together is best ?
> 
> Edit: i suppose the proof is easy enough to find. If your organic inputs are turned into plant food within a few weeks then its working ....


I till my compost pile at least twice per year with a weed eater/tiller. It works. The secret to my success is keep it moist and add shredded oak, hardwood or similar. Becareful on wood types. Some are no no's. Pines! Unless spruce.


----------



## DCcan (May 8, 2021)

*White paper on "Emerging diseases of Cannabis sativa and sustainable management"*

link


https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/ps.6307















(A)–(C) _Fusarium_ causes yellowing of foliage and internal stem necrosis.
(D)–(F) _Pythium_ causes wilt and crown necrosis.
(G)–(I) _Golovinomyces_ causes powdery mildew on leaves and inflorescences. 
(J)–(L) _Botrytis_ causes bud rot. 
Respective pathogen cultures are shown in (C), (F) and (L).


----------



## DCcan (May 8, 2021)

Anyone besides me trying Gliocladium catenulatum. Also known as: Clonostachys rosea strain J1446, isolated from peat soil in Finland.
So far, so good for damping off. Mixes with just about anything for application. Lives on live plant tissue, dead plant material, other organisms.
Can live for weeks after foliar applicating on leaves and buds, lives on in the soil, survives freezing, colonizes the entire plant like _B.bassiana._
I inoculated the seedlings and growing medium so far, can be applied at any time to colonize the plant and roots.




__





Gliocladium catenulatum strain J1446


Pesticide properties for Gliocladium catenulatum strain J1446, including approvals, environmental fate, eco-toxicity and human health issues



sitem.herts.ac.uk













(PDF) Peer review of the pesticide risk assessment of the active substance Clonostachys rosea strain J1446 (approved in Regulation (EU) No 540/2011 as Gliocladium catenulatum strain J1446)


PDF | The conclusions of the European Food Safety Authority (EFSA) following the peer review of the initial risk assessments carried out by the... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


----------



## DCcan (May 8, 2021)

What's growing in your buds?

*White paper on "Diverse mycoflora present on dried cannabis inflorescences in commercial production"*


https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/07060661.2020.1758959








Fig. 6 Colony morphologies of the more distinct fungi that were recovered from cannabis flowers
*(a)* _Penicillium copticola_.
*(b)* _Penicillium pancosmium_.
*(c)* _Talaromyces radicus_.
*(d)* Top view of colony features of _Talaromyces pinophilus_ (upper left), _P. pancosmium_ (upper right), _P. sclerotiorum_ (lower left), _P. glabrum_ (lower right). *(e)* Bottom view of the same cultures shown in *(d)* with characteristic pigment production






*(a)*, the brown colonies are _Cladosporium westeerdijkieae_, the blue-green colonies are _Penicillium olsonii_, and the white colonies are _P. spathulatum_. *(b)*, the yellow colonies are _Aspergillus ochraceus_ and the remainder are _Penicillium_ spp., including _P. olsonii, P. simplicissimum_ and _P. glabrum._


----------



## Northwood (May 8, 2021)

DCcan said:


> Anyone besides me trying Gliocladium catenulatum. Also known as: Clonostachys rosea strain J1446, isolated from peat soil in Finland.
> So far, so good for damping off. Mixes with just about anything for application. Lives on live plant tissue, dead plant material, other organisms.
> Can live for weeks after foliar applicating on leaves and buds, lives on in the soil, survives freezing, colonizes the entire plant like _B.bassiana._
> I inoculated the seedlings and growing medium so far, can be applied at any time to colonize the plant and roots.
> ...


Where did you buy it? I know ATCC sells stuff like this, but only to government and academic research institutions.


----------



## DCcan (May 9, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Where did you buy it? I know ATCC sells stuff like this, but only to government and academic research institutions.


You can order it from Amazon also, manufacturer has a store under VivaGrow, sometimes with a $10 coupon.








LALSTOP® G46 WG


If you've been looking for Prestop WG, look no further. LALSTOP G46 WG is the same powerful organic fungicide, containing the same naturally occurring fungus Gliocladium catenulatum Strain J1446 in the same quantity, as the ever-popular Prestop WG. You can rest assured that this re-branding...



www.arbico-organics.com


----------



## Northwood (May 9, 2021)

DCcan said:


> You can order it from Amazon also, manufacturer has a store under VivaGrow, sometimes with a $10 coupon.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks! That's a huge package. Good item for a group buy I'd say. 

It looks like the one on Amazon.com is out of stock or something right now. I live in Canada so that makes things a bit trickier for items like this unfortunately


----------



## Phabio007 (May 9, 2021)

From my understanding, having the most biodiverse microbe colonies possible promote the best growth possible. From OP's original statement, it seems we're implying some microbes fight with others? I'm using TerraGrow, Real Grower's Recharge, and Unsulfured blackstrap molasses feeds along with the microbe colonies formed by the Nutrient Line I use, Dr. Earth.

*SDS and Info sheet for TerraGrow*

Terra Grow

*Real Grower's Recharge Label*

Real Grower's Recharge

*Dr. Earth 4-6-3 Homegrown Label*

Homegrown

*Dr. Earth 3-9-4 Flower Girl*

Flower Girl

My bud comes out tasting 10x better and 10x smoother than any smoke I've ever had. I attribute that all to a healthy microbe colony in my medium and keeping those guys fed. Also keeps the plants are all extremely healthy. I have had 0 pest issues (bugs or otherwise) since I've been going heavy with my microbes. Always looking to expand my microbe diversity and knowledge.


----------



## Northwood (May 9, 2021)

Phabio007 said:


> From OP's original statement, it seems we're implying some microbes fight with others?


Not only fight with each other but also eat each other, and they'll cheat in war and use chemical warfare against their enemies. If that doesn't work, they'll just try dominate and use all the food to themselves. The microscopic world is a terrifying place that you wouldn't want to be born into. Lol


----------



## getogrow (May 10, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Thanks! That's a huge package. Good item for a group buy I'd say.
> 
> It looks like the one on Amazon.com is out of stock or something right now. I live in Canada so that makes things a bit trickier for items like this unfortunately











LALSTOP G46 Biofungicide 100 Gram (Prestop WG)


LalStop G46 Biofungicide WG 100 Gram (Prestop WG)




www.vivagrow.com





im interested myself....


----------



## DCcan (May 10, 2021)

Phabio007 said:


> From my understanding, having the most biodiverse microbe colonies possible promote the best growth possible. From OP's original statement, it seems we're implying some microbes fight with others?....


They seem to work it out. All that mixed microbes stuff seems just fine. It keeps anything else from moving in.
They produce different enzymes, sulfur compounds, plant growth regulators, bacterial inhibitors.
The ones that live only on the roots should be applied first, (mykos) then applying any hyper parasitic products that can live on roots, leaves, soil, dead plant material, like Trichoderma, later.


----------



## DCcan (May 10, 2021)

getogrow said:


> LALSTOP G46 Biofungicide 100 Gram (Prestop WG)
> 
> 
> LalStop G46 Biofungicide WG 100 Gram (Prestop WG)
> ...


I think it keeps 1 year at room temp, 3 frozen. Saw another biotic, PFR-97 _Isaria fumosorosea Apopka, _but had 30 day shelf life in the fridge

The pepper plants are furthest along with a dose, and the growing medium has been intentionally kept rather cold and damp, zero damping or rot.
Growing across the soil and decayed matter in the houseplants now.
Mostly I'm looking at foliar use when the buds come out in the outdoor garden.
1.8~2gm/ gal makes 50-60 gallons @$3/gal, so enough to inoculate the garden soil, spray the carrier plants in the area (tomatoes, lilacs and cucumbers)
and 2 sprays in flower.


----------



## xtsho (May 10, 2021)

Brown rice, local microbes, and brown sugar. I have another batch going now as well. Collect and grow your own IMO. No need to buy anything.


----------



## getogrow (May 11, 2021)

xtsho said:


> Brown rice, local microbes, and brown sugar. I have another batch going now as well. Collect and grow your own IMO. No need to buy anything.


I just finished my first batch myself. It smells identical to EM, so i know im on the right path. If it is like EM , which i think its the same, then you only need one batch and you can make several hundred gallons from the one batch. 
1 part finished local microbe juice to 1 part sugar to 20 parts water and it will cook the exact same way. You can do this forever.... When its done cooking then seal it up and put it in a cool dry place. it last a LONG time. 

I may be wrong but i think the secret ingredients is what makes the shelf like longer. Adding things like kelp with your carb source. maybe even rock dust and shit like that. 
Im also almost positive that you can make bokashi with our local brews too.....that opens a shiton more doors... God bless nature


----------



## DCcan (May 11, 2021)

I've been leery of making more bokashi since drinking out of the aged beer can with cigarette butts.
Never got sick, other than the normal gag reaction. All types stuff in nicotine, probably not the best ingredient.


----------



## Northwood (May 11, 2021)

DCcan said:


> I've been leery of making more bokashi since drinking out of the aged beer can with cigarette butts.
> Never got sick, other than the normal gag reaction. All types stuff in nicotine, probably not the best ingredient.


I used to work on a tobacco farm while still an undergrad in university. You wouldn't believe the herbicide they drench it with shortly after "topping". It's used as a PGR, in this case to prevent the growth of side branches that would otherwise be stimulated to grow after being topped. Some still grow, but "burnt" looking. Those all have to be picked off later, and that activity is called "suckering".


----------



## dirtfromohio (May 13, 2021)

DCcan said:


> The ones that live only on the roots should be applied first, (mykos) then applying any hyper parasitic products that can live on roots, leaves, soil, dead plant material, like Trichoderma, later.


I think the first part you're talking about inoculating with a mycorrhizal fungi. You would do this first and really only once, maybe twice if you wanted to be sure. And you do it as early into a plant's life as possible. That network is going to establish itself and, depending on what the plant tells it to do, grow or shrink. It essentially becomes a part of the plant and the plant becomes a part of it. Once you get your seedling into some medium then you apply the beneficial bacteria that we see in lot of products. Then after you are comfortable that you've established a healthy and thriving bacterial colony in your dirt you would apply the trichoderms.

I can get down with that. But how would a product like Recharge fit in here when it's like, everything you mentioned. It has some small amount of mycorrhizal spores, some beneficial bactera, some trichoderms, some dead plant material. I feel like it's some weird all in one "booster" and not even a real fixer. Like on the package it says "guaranteed better looking plants in 48 hours" or something like that. Well it has kelp in it so plants are generally gonna like that as a food. So now that that's there gotta make sure plants can eat it so the bacterial colony that's maybe activated should help to buffer things a little and allow the plants to uptake that humic and fulvic acids. Not sure what the purpose of using this as a mycorrhizal inoculant would be, though. Using it at the beginning of a grow seems pretty wasteful but that's when you want to inoculate with mycorrhizae. And then yeah so anyway the microbes are doing their thing breaking stuff down for the plant to eat and then the trichoderms are also add at the same time so are they just decimating the microbe colony you're trying to establish before they even have a chance?

You'd think I have some personal vendetta against Recharge but it just seems like this immensely wasteful product. And if it can be compared to many of the other microbe products on the market, there might not even be any active life in a bag of recharge by the time a retail consumer gets their hands on it. So many other products are lab tested to be completely lying on their labels.

Anyway, didn't mean to rant again. Still get heated when I see people applying Recharge more than once or twice in a grow. If you have to do that to see a boost in your plants there are other issues you need to address in your garden. IMO you shouldn't really be able to "boost" your plants into looking better. If you're caring for them and meeting their needs they're gonna look as best as they are capable of per their genetics.


----------



## getogrow (May 15, 2021)

dirtfromohio said:


> I think the first part you're talking about inoculating with a mycorrhizal fungi. You would do this first and really only once, maybe twice if you wanted to be sure. And you do it as early into a plant's life as possible. That network is going to establish itself and, depending on what the plant tells it to do, grow or shrink. It essentially becomes a part of the plant and the plant becomes a part of it. Once you get your seedling into some medium then you apply the beneficial bacteria that we see in lot of products. Then after you are comfortable that you've established a healthy and thriving bacterial colony in your dirt you would apply the trichoderms.
> 
> I can get down with that. But how would a product like Recharge fit in here when it's like, everything you mentioned. It has some small amount of mycorrhizal spores, some beneficial bactera, some trichoderms, some dead plant material. I feel like it's some weird all in one "booster" and not even a real fixer. Like on the package it says "guaranteed better looking plants in 48 hours" or something like that. Well it has kelp in it so plants are generally gonna like that as a food. So now that that's there gotta make sure plants can eat it so the bacterial colony that's maybe activated should help to buffer things a little and allow the plants to uptake that humic and fulvic acids. Not sure what the purpose of using this as a mycorrhizal inoculant would be, though. Using it at the beginning of a grow seems pretty wasteful but that's when you want to inoculate with mycorrhizae. And then yeah so anyway the microbes are doing their thing breaking stuff down for the plant to eat and then the trichoderms are also add at the same time so are they just decimating the microbe colony you're trying to establish before they even have a chance?
> 
> ...


great post sir


----------



## getogrow (May 15, 2021)

xtsho said:


> Brown rice, local microbes, and brown sugar. I have another batch going now as well. Collect and grow your own IMO. No need to buy anything.




My local effective* microbes.


* "Effective" may mean poisonous in my case 

I brewed this batch with a couple tbsp's of my first batch. After i make bokashi with it , i may or may not need to add yeast for a quicker breakdown.


----------



## DCcan (May 15, 2021)

The kelp and char additives in Recharge/etc convince people that the microbes are working fast. Great for half dead plants, keeps anything else from moving in. I bought a bag after XtremeMykos, it was obvious later they were antagonistic. 
It's not a bad product per se, just different philosophy for growing, expensive, also doesn't require a steep learning curve.

The application timing, what to tank mix, how to tank mix, understanding foliar vs root vs soil application, learning biology, all that goes away with Recharge. 
It's a huge learning curve to figure out the rhizobiome, most the gains are incremental but compounding upon each other.


----------



## getogrow (May 15, 2021)

DCcan said:


> The kelp and char additives in Recharge/etc convince people that the microbes are working fast. Great for half dead plants, keeps anything else from moving in. I bought a bag after XtremeMykos, it was obvious later they were antagonistic.
> It's not a bad product per se, just different philosophy for growing, expensive, also doesn't require a steep learning curve.
> 
> The application timing, what to tank mix, how to tank mix, understanding foliar vs root vs soil application, learning biology, all that goes away with Recharge.
> It's a huge learning curve to figure out the rhizobiome, most the gains are incremental but compounding upon each other.


This is the type of stuff that really interest me. Im gonna grab a microscope just for the hell of it to check things out a bit closer....


----------



## DCcan (May 15, 2021)

Apparently, roots will encourage Mycos , fungus and bacteria to grow in different zones, then encourage or inhibit them as the roots grow and age.
Pretty long winded article








Feed Your Friends: Do Plant Exudates Shape the Root Microbiome?


Plant health in natural environments depends on interactions with complex and dynamic communities comprising macro- and microorganisms. While many stu…




www.sciencedirect.com


----------



## getogrow (May 15, 2021)

DCcan said:


> Apparently, roots will encourage Mycos , fungus and bacteria to grow in different zones, then encourage or inhibit them as the roots grow and age.
> Pretty long winded article
> 
> 
> ...


yes the roots feed them and form a relationship that i have clue how to begin to understand , let alone explain


----------



## dirtfromohio (May 15, 2021)

DCcan said:


> Apparently, roots will encourage Mycos , fungus and bacteria to grow in different zones, then encourage or inhibit them as the roots grow and age.
> Pretty long winded article
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah it's cool. Once the symbiotic relationship between the plant and the mycorrhizal fungi is formed then the plant can tell the fungi to grow or actually shrink or it can just tell it to stop giving it the nutrients that it's picking up depending on what the plants own roots can pick up itself. In fact it's something like as little as 50 parts per million of phosphorus in the soil that is available to the plant and the plant tells the mycorrhizae to completely just stop doing whatever it's doing. It's still there. It's living. It's got that same relationship with the plant. But when the plant can take care of itself the mycorrhizal fungi doesn't do anything. This also includes water because the mycorrhizal fungi hyphae are essentially just extensions of the roots once they infect them and the plant becomes inoculated. Just by nature of hydraulic redistribution moisture in the medium is going to spread fairly evenly but all the hyphae that attach to the roots assist in making that transport mechanism even more efficient.

It's cool. Plants are cool.


----------



## DCcan (May 15, 2021)

dirtfromohio said:


> It's cool. Plants are cool.


Honestly, I just wanted some nice outdoor colas and pickling cucumbers. 
I would have gone underground with AC/CO2 sterile hydro if I knew this involved so much hard thinking and latin.


----------



## Qube (May 16, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Not only fight with each other but also eat each other, and they'll cheat in war and use chemical warfare against their enemies. If that doesn't work, they'll just try dominate and use all the food to themselves. The microscopic world is a terrifying place that you wouldn't want to be born into. Lol


This is an amazing Sci-Fi movie plot. I totally imagined them flying around dog fighting each other as if in space. Imagine "Inner Space x Star wars" LOL. My latest harvest is pretty good.


----------



## Tejashidrow (Jul 2, 2021)

dirtfromohio said:


> I think the first part you're talking about inoculating with a mycorrhizal fungi. You would do this first and really only once, maybe twice if you wanted to be sure. And you do it as early into a plant's life as possible. That network is going to establish itself and, depending on what the plant tells it to do, grow or shrink. It essentially becomes a part of the plant and the plant becomes a part of it. Once you get your seedling into some medium then you apply the beneficial bacteria that we see in lot of products. Then after you are comfortable that you've established a healthy and thriving bacterial colony in your dirt you would apply the trichoderms.
> 
> I can get down with that. But how would a product like Recharge fit in here when it's like, everything you mentioned. It has some small amount of mycorrhizal spores, some beneficial bactera, some trichoderms, some dead plant material. I feel like it's some weird all in one "booster" and not even a real fixer. Like on the package it says "guaranteed better looking plants in 48 hours" or something like that. Well it has kelp in it so plants are generally gonna like that as a food. So now that that's there gotta make sure plants can eat it so the bacterial colony that's maybe activated should help to buffer things a little and allow the plants to uptake that humic and fulvic acids. Not sure what the purpose of using this as a mycorrhizal inoculant would be, though. Using it at the beginning of a grow seems pretty wasteful but that's when you want to inoculate with mycorrhizae. And then yeah so anyway the microbes are doing their thing breaking stuff down for the plant to eat and then the trichoderms are also add at the same time so are they just decimating the microbe colony you're trying to establish before they even have a chance?
> 
> ...


Has anyone mentioned the differsnce between container gardening/growing and in the ground ( or over 20 gallon container) growing/gardening???

I’m looking at both sides and I see where if one is in the ground, 1 or 2 inoculation is all that’s needed.
But growing in smaller containers need more inoculations.
Just my take... right or wrong.


----------



## Tejashidrow (Jul 2, 2021)

getogrow said:


> View attachment 4901713
> 
> My local effective* microbes.
> 
> ...



Pretty sure what ever small amount of local bacteria in the south west dessert where I live is not all that conducive for growing canninbis. And makeing a inoculate from it would be under whelming. Dead dirt and cactus.


----------



## Tejashidrow (Jul 2, 2021)

DCcan said:


> I've been leery of making more bokashi since drinking out of the aged beer can with cigarette butts.
> Never got sick, other than the normal gag reaction. All types stuff in nicotine, probably not the best ingredient.


Not quite seeing the Bokashi and cigarette in drank old beer symbiotic relationship....


----------



## DCcan (Jan 24, 2022)

New study looking at colonization rates of plants with _B.bassiana _and how application affects colonization against pathogens.
Another study looked at _Bacillus subtilis_ and _Gliocladium catenulatum_, against Botrytis cinerea.
Leaf, vascular and stem colonization, as well as roots is dealt with both studies.
Spaying during critical leaf development seems to be the key to effective usage, as well as reduced usage.

 Selection of Endophytic Beauveria bassiana as a Dual Biocontrol Agent of Tomato Pathogens and Pests

_"The results indicated that tomato plant tissues were endophytically colonized by B. bassiana following a repeated soil-drench treatment with a conidia suspension. All of the 10 experimental isolates were able to successfully infect and establish themselves in tomato roots, stems, and leaves. Endophytic colonization observed within the plant tissues was much higher in the hypogeal tissues of the roots, where the colonization rate was close to 100% compared to the leaves, where it ranged from 10 to 50%."_

 Evaluation of Two Commercial Biocontrol Agents for Their Efficacy against B. cinerea

_ "This study has shown that both BCAs inhibit the colonization of B. cinerea inoculum in vitro over a range of temperatures, with formulated versions having an advantage in the control efficacy. Dose–response curves of both BCAS against B. cinerea were developed and shown to be influenced by temperature, formulation and leaf part. In situ studies on lettuce leaves, especially the spatial variability of biocontrol related to leaf positions, showed the importance of taking the phyllosphere morphology into account when delivering BCAs to such surfaces to control this important pathogen."_


----------



## Antidote Man (Jan 24, 2022)

I use mykos when i transplant.

I use Bush Doctor Microbe Brew in veg, along with Roots Excelurator, Great White & Orca, which I taper off during early flower.

I'm curious if anyone uses Great White & Orca all throughout flowering.


----------



## Mr. Bakerton (Jan 24, 2022)

Im half paying attention. SOrry Its hard to follow along to the T on a 7 page thread. I wanted to share this, I premix my soil prior to using for transplanting. I try to get about a week to 2 for rest if I'm watching the calendar. Last time I mixed some FFs Ocean Forest and Happy Frog with recharge, used what I needed and left the rest in a soil bag for 60 days. When I opened it I found it was alive! I've been taking handfuls of this and putting it in other bags as I use them. In attempt to keep it going. It hasn't been long enough to confirm, I'm just having fun. In general I like playing with fungus and have grown oysters, etc. Some of which I have kept it going by moving inoculated mix from one medium to another over time.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 24, 2022)

hotrodharley said:


> Cloning - I take my cut. Scrape the outer layer of stem off with the edge of a knife. Split the stem about a half inch and dip in Clonex or honey and then in Mykos. Straight into Black Gold seedling mix in a Dixie cup. Then forget about it except checking to make sure it’s slightly damp. Try it. Works in straight vermiculite as well.


What also works is: take the cut, put in rockwool (or anything), and wait.

All the scraping and splitting and dipping maybe helps a little, but it's not necessary. I guess if you have a cultivar that is super hard to clone, then some incantations can help.

My worst cloning run had 75% success rate, and I didn't know what I was doing, most of the cuttings were too young and too small, and I only had willow water extract (no Clonex), put them all into nutrient-poor seedling mix (something peat-based, I don't remember).

Probably the most effective way to speed up cloning is to use a bubbler or aeroponics cloner. At least from what I've heard (in the StinkBud thread he basically says: "I'll just throw them in, not even a humidity dome, they all root fast"; and he's probably taken thousands of clones).

I don't think the professional breeders and growers scrape and split and dip thousands of cuttings either. Not very economical.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 24, 2022)

xtsho said:


> Many things are good but not needed. Where does one draw the line and stop paying for products? I have great harvests of good weed without those products. Do they help? Some do. Are they necessary? No. Are they worth the money? Not at all.


I totally agree with you there. So much stuff out there that _maybe_ helps, _maybe_ a little, with no good way to tell for the average grower. In most cases the benefits are so small that it's impossible to tell.

If there was a 20% increase in vigor or yield or whatever, there would not be a discussion. Threads like this one only exist because the benefits of most of this stuff are so small that it's now down to gut feeling and beliefs.

It has to be said however, that supplements like _Trichoderma_ and _bacillus amoliquefaciens_ are not expensive at all, you only have to stay away from Cannabis suppliers like Advanced Nutrients who are masters at marketing and overpricing.

But overall, you're right. Even if the stuff is cheap, one still does end up with a lot of bottles, and it all sums up, and it's a lot of additional work for probably not much benefit.


----------



## hotrodharley (Jan 24, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> What also works is: take the cut, put in rockwool (or anything), and wait.
> 
> All the scraping and splitting and dipping maybe helps a little, but it's not necessary. I guess if you have a cultivar that is super hard to clone, then some incantations can help.
> 
> ...


Whatever. Read many posts here? Doubt we're educating or helping "professional" breeders here.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 24, 2022)

hotrodharley said:


> Doubt we're educating or helping "professional" breeders here.


So then let's do "whatever". Let's keep following every cargo cult that ever existed.

Obviously you can clone your cuttings every which way you want, all I did was to point out that it can be had much simpler as well.


----------



## hotrodharley (Jan 24, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> So then let's do "whatever". Let's keep following every cargo cult that ever existed.
> 
> Obviously you can clone your cuttings every which way you want, all I did was to point out that it can be had much simpler as well.


Hell you can cut it and put it in a cup of water and leave in low light and they'll root. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to give them a boost.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 25, 2022)

hotrodharley said:


> Sometimes it doesn't hurt to give them a boost.


I'm all for that.

I've found the following two studies on cloning:

https://bclna.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/IPPS-Paper-pdf.pdf
This is from Bruce Bugbee's lab; sadly I can't find the actual paper.
It basically says "scraping helps a little" and "younger branches root more easily"
https://cdnsciencepub.com/doi/full/10.1139/cjps-2018-0038
I'm just reading this. It looks quite comprehensive and interesting.
It says that "hormone is better than willow extract", "cutting leaf tips is bad" (I will certainly stop doing that), "position of cutting does not matter much" (that's in contradiction to the above study), "more leaves are better", and "rooting hormone/willow extract helps a lot"
Nobody appears to do stem splitting. In Cervante's book it is mentioned, I've done it too, not sure if it's important at all. I think Cervantes wrote something like "there will be earlier roots, but not as many".

Also, nothing on lighting conditions. I assume it does not matter. I don't think "low light" is important at all.

If somebody else knows of some scientific studies (does not have to be Cannabis, just close enough), I'd be interested in reading them.


----------



## GanjaJack (Jan 25, 2022)

I'm confused as to why anyone would be dishonest about microbes to begin with?

For clones, all I do is Black Gold seedling mix in a 6oz cup, then put another 6 oz on top as a dome. I get roots in 2 weeks. 

I've done the EzCloner as well. Using microbes and their cloning solution. I split the stem as Cervante suggested... I usually end up with roots in 4 days... Or slime... One or the other. Depending on temperature which is extremely difficult to keep dialed in exactly in my grow due to fluctuating winter temps.....


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 25, 2022)

GanjaJack said:


> I've done the EzCloner as well. Using microbes and their cloning solution. I split the stem as Cervante suggested... I usually end up with roots in 4 days... Or slime... One or the other. Depending on temperature which is extremely difficult to keep dialed in exactly in my grow due to fluctuating winter temps.....


You can probably avoid the slime with H2O2 or a mild bleach solution. If the water gets too warm it's very difficult to avoid bad guys growing in there.

Have you found a hormone additive (IPA based) to dissolve in the water? I'm hesitant to put Clonex gel on the stems that go in the aero cloner. Just can't find anything equivalent that would go directly in the water.


----------



## GanjaJack (Jan 25, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> You can probably avoid the slime with H2O2 or a mild bleach solution. If the water gets too warm it's very difficult to avoid bad guys growing in there.
> 
> Have you found a hormone additive (IPA based) to dissolve in the water? I'm hesitant to put Clonex gel on the stems that go in the aero cloner. Just can't find anything equivalent that would go directly in the water.



Nope, I just went to the black gold seedling mix.. it works every time, for me. Once I got on that bicycle I've never went another route.

I am going to start experimenting next, to see how small of a clone I can take using Black Gold seedling mix, just to experiment a little.

The gel in the EZ Cloner does two things, it provides microbes directly to the cutting, and also seals the hole up in the cutting so you don't get an air-bubble(embolism?) in the stem that ends up killing the clone.

Which I always thought... Then why in gods name am I splitting the stem half way up the friggin' clone if I am trying to avoid getting an air bubble????

Though I have to admit, splitting the stems, the clone produces roots at the split and on both splits, it just seems like a much better root structure for a clone than not splitting the stem?

But still knowing all of that I still don't split the stem any longer. It also makes them harder to pull out of the soil and see if they have started rooting yet.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 25, 2022)

GanjaJack said:


> It also makes them harder to pull out of the soil and see if they have started rooting yet.


Use jiffy pots (made of coco), and just wait for the root tips to grow through the pot walls. Then you know for a fact they're rooted well, and you can transplant the jiffy pot directly into the grow container. That also avoids transplant shock.

I prefer rockwool over coco or seedling mix because it's less messy and even more convenient. Also very cheap if you buy a single slab of rockwool and cut it into small cubes (maybe 5 cents a cube that way, or less even).


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 25, 2022)

GanjaJack said:


> The gel in the EZ Cloner does two things, it provides microbes directly to the cutting, and also seals the hole up in the cutting


I'm just afraid that the gel will spread in the aero cloner and make a big mess or clog the sprayers.


----------



## GanjaJack (Jan 25, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I'm just afraid that the gel will spread in the aero cloner and make a big mess or clog the sprayers.



With the 6 oz clear plastic cups. I just wait for the roots to show through on the side.. Sometimes I pull a clone out as its JUST forming roots and throw it in the hydroponics so that I don't have as much soil on the roots which is then in my DWC/clay pebbles. 

I don't know why, I just never liked jiffy pots. They just never worked for me that well. I tend to over water them or get impatient.

As far as the gel goes.. I take my clone, dip dip potato chip... stick it right in the cloner, the gel is water soluble and it will dilute enough not to become a mess. I've never used the gel for soil, pretty sure that would cause a bit more of a mess.


----------



## Mr. Bakerton (Jan 25, 2022)

GanjaJack said:


> Depending on temperature which is extremely difficult to keep dialed in exactly in my grow due to fluctuating winter temps.....


Have you used a heat mat with a digital thermometer ? This is how I sprout pepper seeds (warm) and spinach seeds (cold) at the same time indoors under a light.


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 25, 2022)

GanjaJack said:


> Sometimes I pull a clone out as its JUST forming roots and throw it in the hydroponics so that I don't have as much soil on the roots which is then in my DWC/clay pebbles.


If it's DWC you're growing in, then I'd recommend rockwool cubes for the clones. They work really well. When rooted, just put the entire rockwool cube into a net pot and backfill with clay pebbles.

No problem with soil contamation, and the cloning gel works totally fine with the rockwool cubes.

Last time I cloned something we had ~20 cuttings off a Critical Kush, put them all in rockwool with Clonex, 100% success rate.



GanjaJack said:


> I don't know why, I just never liked jiffy pots. They just never worked for me that well. I tend to over water them or get impatient.


If you put coco into the jiffy pots it's actually hard to overwater them, because the water will evaporate in all directions (just as with rockwool). I guess plastic cups are much more difficult in that regard.

But in your case I'd go with rockwool anyway.



GanjaJack said:


> I've never used the gel for soil, pretty sure that would cause a bit more of a mess.


Nah, it's fine, it stays on the stem and slowly disappears while it dilutes.


----------



## hotrodharley (Jan 25, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> I'm all for that.
> 
> I've found the following two studies on cloning:
> 
> ...


I didn't write a book and I've never bothered with a book on cannabis. I just do what I've seen done successfully for a long time.


----------



## GanjaJack (Jan 26, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> If it's DWC you're growing in, then I'd recommend rockwool cubes for the clones. They work really well. When rooted, just put the entire rockwool cube into a net pot and backfill with clay pebbles.
> 
> No problem with soil contamation, and the cloning gel works totally fine with the rockwool cubes.
> 
> ...



Yeh the Rockwool cubes is what I ended up with worms in. I managed to pull the cube out after the plant over grew it and the thing was loaded with worms inside the cube as I pulled the rest of it apart.... So I moved to putting the clones into the DWC just as they start popping roots, without the cube.

Then I moved to soil. I tend to be a lot more successful with seedling soil over anything else so I stick with it. I'll get maybe 60% successes with rockwool but, I get near 100% with soil.


----------



## DCcan (Jan 26, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> You can probably avoid the slime with H2O2 or a mild bleach solution. If the water gets too warm it's very difficult to avoid bad guys growing in there.
> 
> Have you found a hormone additive (IPA based) to dissolve in the water? I'm hesitant to put Clonex gel on the stems that go in the aero cloner. Just can't find anything equivalent that would go directly in the water.


What's all this cloning clutter you're dropping got to do with microbes?
I'm sure there are plenty of places to discuss your cloning without microbes.
Can you you just try and stay on track here?


----------



## calvin.m16 (Jan 29, 2022)

I quit using microbial supplements. You'll notice most of them have other boosters like Kelp and Humic/Fulvic acids. It's hard to know in that case if the benefits are from MicroBacteria or the Acids, Hormones, Auxins etc..


----------



## Jay Unity (Jan 29, 2022)

I'm going to have to go back and read this thread again when I have more time to focus. Just wanted to say that I've used alot of diff microbes and I was always on the fence about what or how much they were actually contributing. Started using Tribus and what it does to the roots is undeniable. Like night and day compared to the others. It's actually making me need to transplant my seedlings much sooner which kind of sucks because of space limitations but going to go with the "light" feeding instead of the "recommend" next time and see how that does.


----------



## DCcan (Jan 29, 2022)

calvin.m16 said:


> I quit using microbial supplements. You'll notice most of them have other boosters like Kelp and Humic/Fulvic acids. It's hard to know in that case if the benefits are from MicroBacteria or the Acids, Hormones, Auxins etc..


That's true, some of those are like a black box. You don't know what's in it, you just see an effect, short term usually.
Most of what I've got is for pests and pathogens as part of IPM, inoculating the new leaf growth rather than growth stimulator, that's just a side benefit. 



Jay Unity said:


> I'm going to have to go back and read this thread again when I have more time to focus. Just wanted to say that I've used alot of diff microbes and I was always on the fence about what or how much they were actually contributing. Started using Tribus and what it does to the roots is undeniable. Like night and day compared to the others. It's actually making me need to transplant my seedlings much sooner which kind of sucks because of space limitations but going to go with the "light" feeding instead of the "recommend" next time and see how that does.
> View attachment 5076741


I haven't tried Tribus, looks good
Specs/Label
CONTAINS NON-PLANT FOOD INGREDIENTS
Bacillus subtilis ............................4.0x109 CFU/mL
Bacillus pumilus ...........................4.0x109 CFU/mL
Bacillus amyloliquefaciens..............2.0x1O9 CFU/mL
*Total: 10 Billion CFU/mL (1x1010 CFU/mL)*


----------



## ComputerSaysNo (Jan 29, 2022)

calvin.m16 said:


> I quit using microbial supplements. You'll notice most of them have other boosters like Kelp and Humic/Fulvic acids. It's hard to know in that case if the benefits are from MicroBacteria or the Acids, Hormones, Auxins etc..


It's not that hard to know. All you need is the non-microbial supplements, so you can give them to a control plant.
The algae based supplements and humic acid is easily available.

Anyhow, if the supplement brings an immediate and visible benefit, then why not stop asking questions and start applying it? I personally couldn't care less if it's the algae extract or the beneficial bacteria in the end (as long as the supplement is affordable; some of them are terribly overpriced, and they mostly contain the same things).


----------



## calvin.m16 (Jan 30, 2022)

ComputerSaysNo said:


> It's not that hard to know. All you need is the non-microbial supplements, so you can give them to a control plant.
> The algae based supplements and humic acid is easily available.
> 
> Anyhow, if the supplement brings an immediate and visible benefit, then why not stop asking questions and start applying it? I personally couldn't care less if it's the algae extract or the beneficial bacteria in the end (as long as the supplement is affordable; some of them are terribly overpriced, and they mostly contain the same things).


I feel like Xtreme Gardens Tea Brewz did good, I don't think they add more than compost to feed the bacteria while it's brewing. That definitely caused me to have more roots shooting through my pots. I'm definitely going to have to try Tribus. I take a lot of pictures so I'll do a dixie cup comparison with a half dozen plants, 3 cups will get no beneficials and 3 cups will get Tribus. I'll use a clear dixie cup inside of a black one so I can easily inspect the results.

Bigger roots bigger fruits is 100% true so if this stuff works why not use it like you said unless pricing is unreal.


----------



## Cannabisco (May 8, 2022)

I use Real Growers Recharge in Veg because the bacteria are that of NSB class - nitrogen solubilizing bacteria.
I use MammothP or Plant Success Organics (cheaper) in preflower to 3-4 wk stage in bloom because the bacteria are that of PSB- Phosphorus Solubilizing Bacteria.
I use Advanced Nutrients Piranha from wk 3 bloom to flush stage, because the KSB bacteria are that of Si , P & K solubilizing bacteria.
I'm going to be experimenting with purple non sulfur bacteria in the future, from what I've read purple bacteria is pretty wild & beneficial. Only type I can find is in Quantum Light.
Unless anyone can point me to a better source of purple bacteria..
I've witnessed what different myco, fungi & bacteria strains can do vs none & its night & day.


----------



## mandocat (May 8, 2022)

hotrodharley said:


> Great White - very good but ridiculously expensive. All we are trying to do is duplicate nature and a natural environment. Including those of us who use peat. I have done enough side by side comparisons and the stuff is a bonus. Cloning - I take my cut. Scrape the outer layer of stem off with the edge of a knife. Split the stem about a half inch and dip in Clonex or honey and then in Mykos. Straight into Black Gold seedling mix in a Dixie cup. Then forget about it except checking to make sure it’s slightly damp. Try it. Works in straight vermiculite as well.
> 
> View attachment 4335448
> 
> $25 for 12 ounces. It goes a very long way.


When you clone using Mykos and Black Gold in a dixie cup, do you use any kind of humidity dome?


----------



## Hiphophippo (May 8, 2022)

I use the recharge thru the whole grow every watering. Sometimes triple the strength other than that I top dress during veg with earth worm castings and rock dust to help bring back what’s died off. I notice a huge difference when I didn’t use the recharge but have done just fine without it in the past. I defiantly see the rewards of using as to not using it.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (May 9, 2022)

Cannabisco said:


> I use Real Growers Recharge in Veg because the bacteria are that of NSB class - nitrogen solubilizing bacteria.
> I use MammothP or Plant Success Organics (cheaper) in preflower to 3-4 wk stage in bloom because the bacteria are that of PSB- Phosphorus Solubilizing Bacteria.
> I use Advanced Nutrients Piranha from wk 3 bloom to flush stage, because the KSB bacteria are that of Si , P & K solubilizing bacteria.
> I'm going to be experimenting with purple non sulfur bacteria in the future, from what I've read purple bacteria is pretty wild & beneficial. Only type I can find is in Quantum Light.
> ...


Any pictures of your plants that you have snapped in the past that you can add here. We all take pics..


----------



## Cannabisco (May 9, 2022)

Sure. I got some more I can upload on my Google drive.


----------



## Cannabisco (May 9, 2022)

More


----------



## Cannabisco (May 9, 2022)

I just got into scrog growing this year. The previous pics were mostly indoor under cfl in veg chamber or hps in bloom. In the past I would grow a few plants off season or grow inside then move outdoor end of May. Took a break from growing and moved, but now starting back up again under led quantum board & cobs. This scrog is my current grow , in the back we have WW on the left & Grape Ape on the right.. the middle is a G13× liberty haze , the 2 up front are Purple Panty Dropper. All are in 5G fabric pots, consisting of coco, pro-mix, perlite, green sand & bio char.


----------



## Cannabisco (May 9, 2022)

I figure veg another week to fill in gaps then make the flip to preflower.. not sure if I should stay with 1 screen or go for 2. So another after the stretch. Any help/advice is refreshing, being it my first true scrog. In the past I used screens just to help branching but never tried the even canopy, so its a first for me.


----------



## Cannabisco (May 9, 2022)

Pics of the pgrp products, so can see the different types.
Recharge , Plant Success Organics, & Piranha.. the lil one is some tomato food 1-3-1 with microbes my friend gave me. Google says Recharge npk is 2-0-0, not sure if that's true because of the leonardite & kelp. 

Mikrobs has a good selection at a fair price.. TPS has their Billions that seems decent too.


----------



## Nabbers (Jun 11, 2022)

From what I understand, Mykos is a single strain, *Rhizophagus Intraradices. *As far as I know, it's one of the more important strains in growing your plants huge. Trifecta Myco Supreme uses the related *Rhizophagus Irregularis.* I used to use Great White, which has a large variety of organisms, but R. Intraradices isn't among them. It's based around a couple strains of Trichoderma, and supporting bacteria and some other trace myco.

So don't worry too much about paying for a brand, pick the strain that works best for you. Like I saw one called "Wallace Organic Wonder" that was also just R. Intraradices. Someone said it might even be just repackaged Mykos.

I first learned about using mycorrhizae years ago from a video where Paul Stamets appeared on Daryl Hannah's show Love Life. Long before I got into cannabis, I used to grow magic mushrooms, and Stamets is sort of a hero among mushroom fans - enough so that they named a Star Trek character after him. Here's a screen grab of him holding a myco grown onion.


----------



## Cannabisco (Jun 11, 2022)

Just recently started incorporating labs. Used some jasmine rice water & milk, after the whey curd stage I used a 1:1 ratio with Blackstrap molasses for storage. Can't wait to start adding it to my already teeming rhizosphere & see how it competes with the other myco, fungi & bacteria strains already present.


----------



## Cannabisco (Jun 12, 2022)

Here is a decent little article about mycorrhizae - all the types of beneficial fungi , specifically endo & ecto strains & the symbiotic system at play in your rhizosphere. 









Why do you need endo and ecto mycorrhizae when growing cannabis?


We like to call friendly fungus’ the superheroes of the soil! So much so, that scientists have accepted and entered fungi in their own kingdom on the classification system of organisms. Fungi can share characteristics of...




elevasoils.com


----------



## Cannabisco (Jun 12, 2022)

Here we have an Ed Rosenthal article based around mycorrhizae 









Ed Rosenthal: Improve yield and quality of your cannabis crop with the help of Mycorrhizae — Ed Rosenthal


Mycorrhiza and Cannabishave a symbiotic relationship. While cannabis can grow without mycorrhizal fungi, it is widely considered an obligate mycotroph, which means partnering with these fungi will certainly contribute to maximizing the plant’s genetic potential.




www.edrosenthal.com


----------



## Cannabisco (Jun 12, 2022)

From my understanding if growing in any media with salts or synthetic nutes then you definitely need some sort of beneficial fungi & bacteria simply because everytime you add salts or synthetic nutes you are destroying your rhizosphere as you feed the plants directly.
Those who grow organic don't need as much beneficial fungi & bacteria because organic nutes don't kill the rhizosphere & beneficial fungi and bacteria can form & breed from the existing numbers in the soil more successfully.
Needless to say it's still beneficial to add or innoculate your grows regardless of inorganic or organic growing methods because it's a numbers game. Yes soil has some naturally occurring beneficial fungi & bacteria, but not at the numbers you want especially for successful breeding.
Most pgrp products or microbial products for sale are labeled in Spore, prop or cfu & are inactive/dormant. These are decent but also dormant, so if your growing methods include synthetic & salt based then you really kill the majority of Spore, prop & cfu (colony forming unit) before they can awaken from dormancy, establish a colony & breed for numbers. Even if one practices organic methods it is still a chance that majority of Spore, prop & cfu may not develop successfully the first go.
This is where LABS come in to play - live cultures of lactobacillus (lactic acid bacteria).
There is no waiting dormancy period, but once again if using salts & synthetic chemicals then it too will kill even live LABS. Organic growing let's live & inactive/dormant cultures thrive. Supposedly there are certain strains that are more resistant to the harshness of salts & synthetic nutes.
When I grew with synthetic & salt based nutes I didn't bother really with dormant or live cultures because I figured it was a waste of money. Now that I've switched I definitely make sure to inoculate my compost, living soil & feed dormant & live cultures because they thrive with organic growing.
Majority I use are LABS and I make it using jasmine rice wash water & then organic milk till it goes to the curds & whey stage then I separate the whey & mix 1:1 ratio with Blackstrap molasses. Live cultures for super cheap.
Yeah I still use pgrp products like Recharge, Plant Success Organics simply because they were free & work. I usually make a organic probiotic nute tea with EWC as a base, add BioAg Cytoplus, Plant Success Organics, Roots Organics Seabird Guano, Molasses & LAB culture mix tailoring npk ratio adjustment for veg & bloom.. sometimes I add some bunny honey from my rabbit for added nitrogen - heavy in veg & light in bloom. I give this tea every other watering, other than that I feed organic nutes no-till method & various teas consisting of bunny honey & either Down to Earth products or Dr. Earth or Happy Frog. Ive cut my spending down by almost 70% compared to when I used synthetic & salt based. Organic nutes last me alot longer because I don't have to feed as much due to beneficial fungi and bacteria in my active rhizosphere, so its definitely more cost effective for me. For over 10 yrs I grew with Synthetics & salts, then for 5-8 yrs I grew a hybrid mix of synthetic, salts & organic growing. Now I'm all organic & also save my soil to ammend & reuse. I've seen what microbial pgrp products can do vs none & its a huge difference for me in results & cost efficiency.
The LABS were definitely a game changer, as well as researching which fungi & bacterial strains do what like some are nitrogen solubilizing or phosphorous solubilizing or potassium & silica solubilizing. Plus the effects of different trichoderma strains. Currently I'm researching Purple bacteria and how that could be beneficial as well. If anyone has any knowledge of Purple bacteria please reach out to me. Thanks.

*Also this is just my opinion, practices & results that have worked for me. In no way am I stating other people's growing methods are inferior. I have grown great weed using Synthetics, Hybrid (synthetic, salt, mineral & organic) & All Organic. Different strokes for different folks. Do what works for you.


----------



## Hiphophippo (Jun 12, 2022)

I’ve been on the fence about useing a fulvic humic acid as a soil amendment after my grows are finished I’ve used it before as a drench and additive to water but I think I’m going to try it this next time as this is new soil this run and want to create a more stable environment long term. I’m also going to add in these new recharge full grow pellets I just found as a top dressing when I pull the current plants.


----------

