# Maximising yield in a commercial grow



## SamWE19 (Oct 23, 2019)

Interested in your opinions. 

I have only limited space starting my business in a loft since it’s gone legal. Don’t have any more space. 

It’s all been insulated etc. 

I currently have a vertical system setup on the larger section of the loft with 90 plants with 1ft2 per plant. And a tiny dwc setup on the other side with 1/4sqft2 per plant. 

My initial thought was to try and keep plants as single colas, cram 90 in the small area first and 12/12 from seed. Let them start to bud and then move them for the final 5-6 weeks into the larger area. 

Got another 6 weeks to go to see how the yield turns out doing it this way but wonder if anyone has any better ideas for quicker turn arounds or increasing yield when space is limited.


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## Jaybodankly (Oct 23, 2019)

Other than autoflowers 12/12 from seed is the quickest way to go.


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## Renfro (Oct 23, 2019)

You wanna increase productivity stop growing from seed, get some moms and go 12/12 from well rooted clones. Pot and flip. and cut the clones big, like 6 inches long from good tops, root for 20 days in 18/6 or 24/0


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

Renfro said:


> You wanna increase productivity stop growing from seed, get some moms and go 12/12 from well rooted clones. Pot and flip. and cut the clones big, like 6 inches long from good tops, root for 20 days in 18/6 or 24/0


Will that really yield more though? I would need to figure out how to fit enough mother plants for 90 plants every 5 weeks or so and a clone room that is light proof in a tiny amount of space that’s left in the loft


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## f series (Oct 24, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Will that really yield more though? I would need to figure out how to fit enough mother plants for 90 plants every 5 weeks or so and a clone room that is light proof in a tiny amount of space that’s left in the loft


Shit you can have moms in your living room under t 5s


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

f series said:


> Shit you can have moms in your living room under t 5s


Yeah that’s not gonna happen in a family home lol. Wife limits my growing enterprise to loft. I’ll eventually buy some space I guess but for now this is what I’ve got


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## f series (Oct 24, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Yeah that’s not gonna happen in a family home lol. Wife limits my growing enterprise to loft. I’ll eventually buy some space I guess but for now this is what I’ve got


What's yours grow area dimensions


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

f series said:


> What's yours grow area dimensions


Very hard to say due to the sloped roof and limited walk way. 

I have a vertical system built in a 2m x 3m area with 2.3m hieght. 90 plants in here with 1sqft each.

Then I have a 140cm x 140cm dwc area with around 60cm of usable hieght after the lights taken into account with 90 plants so 4 plants per sqft then I have tiny bits and pieces of space behind the vertical system in the bits were roof is sloped like from floor to top only 50cm of hieght


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## Lucky Luke (Oct 24, 2019)

Rent a space. Loft is just gunna give u headaches.

You have to go clones for the simple reason they become easy to grow as u have grown them over and over again. Keep Mothers or clone off vegging plants as they go into the flower area.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Rent a space. Loft is just gunna give u headaches.
> 
> You have to go clones for the simple reason they become easy to grow as u have grown them over and over again. Keep Mothers or clone off vegging plants as they go into the flower area.


I don’t have any problems or deficiencies growing with seeds. I wouldn’t want to switch to clones on the basis that they are “easier” to grow.. renting isn’t possible atm. 

I’m interested in how clones will produce higher yield than seeds though based on profit per year not per harvest or plant in this instance though.


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## Lucky Luke (Oct 24, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I don’t have any problems or deficiencies growing with seeds. I wouldn’t want to switch to clones on the basis that they are “easier” to grow..
> 
> I’m interested in how clones will produce higher yield than seeds though based on profit per year not per harvest or plant in this instance though.


They produce higher yields because they are mature plants and are easier to grow because u have grown them time and time again. 3rd or 4th run you should have them dialed in.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

If I grow a clone 12/12 from roots am I going to yield 2-3oz per plant? I don’t see it. 12/12 from seed I’ve gotten 2-3oz a plant I’ve never grown 12/12 from rooter cut though so I’m interested in hearing more


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## Renfro (Oct 24, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Will that really yield more though? I would need to figure out how to fit enough mother plants for 90 plants every 5 weeks or so and a clone room that is light proof in a tiny amount of space that’s left in the loft


Well you get a bigger plant with no veg. You get consistency, so pick your best phenotype for the mom.


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## Renfro (Oct 24, 2019)

If you do 12/12 from clone, pot in 6 inch square pots, flood and drain rules, put 4 plants per sqft. When I did this I got a little over 2 pounds per SE 1kW HPS, every 60 days. Strain matters, you want one that stretches on flip and makes big colas.


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## Renfro (Oct 24, 2019)

Another really good reason to grow from clones is you won't have to cull any hermies.


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## coreywebster (Oct 24, 2019)

Sam are you using LEDs (memory makes you think you are) Or bulbs?
Just wondering how you have your vert set up? Like one wall of plants or two lit up from both sides?


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## Thundercat (Oct 24, 2019)

I would convert the dwc room into a mother/clone room. Then you can cycle clones into the very system and create a perpetual harvest. Each clone might yield a little less then larger seed plants, but you can more easily put more clones in a smaller space more quickly which increases your over all yield. 

Growing from clone there is no phenotype differences to worry about, they all grow about the same. 

You don’t need huge mother plants to provide enough clone for your system. 90 wouldn’t even be a lot of clones, but if you switched it to a perpetual cycle you could do less clones every few weeks. I’ve spent the last 10 years running a flood and drain system just like that. I kept small mother plants in my veg/clone room and took about 20 clones every 2ish weeks. The mothers usually were super bushy and ready for more clones every time.


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## macsnax (Oct 24, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I don’t have any problems or deficiencies growing with seeds. I wouldn’t want to switch to clones on the basis that they are “easier” to grow.. renting isn’t possible atm.
> 
> I’m interested in how clones will produce higher yield than seeds though based on profit per year not per harvest or plant in this instance though.


How do you expect to get consistent results from seed? There are reasons commercial ops use clones and growing proven cuts is one of them.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

coreywebster said:


> Sam are you using LEDs (memory makes you think you are) Or bulbs?
> Just wondering how you have your vert set up? Like one wall of plants or two lit up from both sides?


Yes leds. I have leds stacked vertically back to back with a wall of plants either side


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

macsnax said:


> How do you expect to get consistent results from seed? There are reasons commercial ops use clones and growing proven cuts is one of them.


If I use clones I’m only gonna have room
For one strain. I would need one hell of a strain that people won’t get bored of and yields good


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## hellmutt bones (Oct 24, 2019)

f series said:


> Shit you can have moms in your living room under t 5s


I had a mom in my livingroom under candlelight.


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## macsnax (Oct 24, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> If I use clones I’m only gonna have room
> For one strain. I would need one hell of a strain that people won’t get bored of and yields good


Or you can give people mids over and over and they look elsewhere. You simply can't do what you want from seed, gotta have proven cuttings.


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## rkymtnman (Oct 24, 2019)

hellmutt bones said:


> I had a mom in my livingroom under candlelight.


on a bearskin rug with a nice bottle of wine?


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## f series (Oct 24, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> If I use clones I’m only gonna have room
> For one strain. I would need one hell of a strain that people won’t get bored of and yields good


Macs right, proven cut is King.
Ever grow few of the same seeds and put same harvest in same container? People will ask wtf you give them constantly. You need to pheno hunt, or put your eggs in one basket, up to you. Regardless, if you want more strains, have more mother's. Do like 30 clones 3 strains. You can have like 9 mothers, doesn't mean you have to run all 9.
Maybe run 3-6 cycles a year?
Would be work but possible.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

Ok say I change to cuttings my main room was built with space in mind. It is very difficult to get to the plants once they are in there. As space is tight. 

If it will take me 8 weeks per cycle and If only get 1 oz per rooted clone it will be less than I get now. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone on here get more than 1 oz per 12/12 from clone?


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## tomazinho (Oct 24, 2019)

I usually don't post on forum but man you're stubborn, nobody is here to make you fail or to break your plans. Let's take another angle and I know it's difficult to change something you have designed. however what do you think is giving you more yield on a 12/12 from beginning basis. An already established plant or a seed?
Now specially with this type of grow you need to run mother because you're not growing for you but for clients and they like consistency, they're not like a casual grower looking for new strains. Yes they will like to have choices, but from a business perspective you need to be able to find your product that will bring you your main turn over and this will be easier with mom's. Easy reproductable clone and consistency. Then you'll look for strain/pheno hunt in order to find other killer strains.
Moreover on cycling, it will be faster with clones if they're totally rooted before going in you grow wall you'll win one to 2 weeks.
Basically if I was you I will be looking for something like grapefruit, bubble bomb, big bud, desfràn, C99 etc maintaining 45 slots for them and doing and testing new strains on the other 45 slots.
Regarding your space management issue, look at bonsaï moms (perfect for your sloped roof), maybe you will be able to dial in everything and maintain your DWC system and your grow wall without the need to mix strain, 90 wall 90 dwc. 
The last thing I would consider is factoring the inputs prices. basically your clones are near to nowhere regarding seed prices even in bulk. you could maintain 18 bonsaïs moms 5X5' space (and take 20 cuttings every 3 weeks) under 150w neon or even better led strip.
Good luck bro on your journey

Ps : sorry for my English not native speaker


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## SamWE19 (Oct 24, 2019)

tomazinho said:


> I usually don't post on forum but man you're stubborn, nobody is here to make you fail or to break your plans. Let's take another angle and I know it's difficult to change something you have designed. however what do you think is giving you more yield on a 12/12 from beginning basis. An already established plant or a seed?
> Now specially with this type of grow you need to run mother because you're not growing for you but for clients and they like consistency, they're not like a casual grower looking for new strains. Yes they will like to have choices, but from a business perspective you need to be able to find your product that will bring you your main turn over and this will be easier with mom's. Easy reproductable clone and consistency. Then you'll look for strain/pheno hunt in order to find other killer strains.
> Moreover on cycling, it will be faster with clones if they're totally rooted before going in you grow wall you'll win one to 2 weeks.
> Basically if I was you I will be looking for something like grapefruit, bubble bomb, big bud, desfràn, C99 etc maintaining 45 slots for them and doing and testing new strains on the other 45 slots.
> ...



Appreciate your Input buddy but definitely not stubborn I just like to understand what makes someone’s input better. If someone says clones will be better, I’d like to hear experiences and how it’s better as I can’t change my system based on some opinion without understanding it myself

I’m considering the clone angle but atm I’m getting easy 2 oz per plant and each plant takes up 1 sqft of space. 

I’m trying to find any evidence that clones can yield anywhere near as much as that with no luck so far. Max I’ve seen is 1 oz from rooted cut.


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## Renfro (Oct 24, 2019)

Can lead a horse to water.... smh

May have not had problems with seeds, YET. Wait till 30 percent of a run hermies and you miss one and it pollinates the rest.


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## ChiefRunningPhist (Oct 24, 2019)

Seeds get expensive. 

Clones ensure consistency.


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## ubluntu (Oct 24, 2019)

I'm curios how long on average a seed on 12/12 takes to begin flower. Course a plant will yield more if it vegges for a month before flowering. Not a fair comparison when clones begin flowering right away.


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## Renfro (Oct 24, 2019)

ubluntu said:


> I'm curios how long on average a seed on 12/12 takes to begin flower. Course a plant will yield more if it vegges for a month before flowering. Not a fair comparison when clones begin flowering right away.


TBH one should "cheat" with their clones by letting them root really well. I let mine root for 20 days and end up with roots 12 - 14 inches long. They start to grow and do need a light nutrient feed but basically you are vegging them before potting them. So thats a big advantage.

If you wanna veg your clones a little more after potting and use less plants per sqft then that works too but yield in a SoG is pretty much square footage based and any veg beyond a certain point makes no sense.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 25, 2019)

Renfro said:


> TBH one should "cheat" with their clones by letting them root really well. I let mine root for 20 days and end up with roots 12 - 14 inches long. They start to grow and do need a light nutrient feed but basically you are vegging them before potting them. So thats a big advantage.
> 
> If you wanna veg your clones a little more after potting and use less plants per sqft then that works too but yield in a SoG is pretty much square footage based and any veg beyond a certain point makes no sense.


How much do you yield doing this mate? 

I can probably setup an aero cloner and leave the clones rooting for 20-30 days. 

How many clones do you do per sq ft?


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## Renfro (Oct 25, 2019)

A little over 2 pounds per 1kW SE HPS, consistently for over 7 years in multiple grows at once.


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## Lucky Luke (Oct 25, 2019)

hellmutt bones said:


> I had a mom in my livingroom under candlelight.


everyone likes a MILF.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 25, 2019)

Renfro said:


> A little over 2 pounds per 1kW SE HPS, consistently for over 7 years in multiple grows at once.


What’s that in space mate? As I don’t use a hps and don’t know the coverage. And how many clones in the space


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## Lucky Luke (Oct 25, 2019)

Seeds are great for perso smoke and pheno hunting. $ are in clones. Its just consistency plus clones take less time to flower than a seed plant. Its gotta be an extra harvest a year.

Put down 30 fem seeds cull 10 and ur left with 20, maybe 15 will be decent... Clones a known quantity.
Plus no pollen floating around.

I know one outdoor grower who pops 70 regs to keep 15.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 25, 2019)

Lucky Luke said:


> Seeds are great for perso smoke and pheno hunting. $ are in clones. Its just consistency plus clones take less time to flower than a seed plant. Its gotta be an extra harvest a year.
> 
> Put down 30 fem seeds cull 10 and ur left with 20, maybe 15 will be decent... Clones a known quantity.
> Plus no pollen floating around.
> ...


I have 110 RQS critical to plant in a week or so. I’ll look into how to pheno hunt on those


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## SamWE19 (Oct 25, 2019)

Here’s a full view of my vertical system... 

At the canopy using an apogee par meter I am getting 900-1100ppfd.

I transplanted all these plants into the vertical wall yesterday they were all straight stemmed plants from the dwc system. 

Since putting them in the vertical wall the tips have started pointing up and side branches are pointing up. 

Any ideas why they aren’t pulling directly to the light and seem to be turning upwards?


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## Mechanicalbuds (Oct 25, 2019)

Hi y'all. My 2 cents is I'm about the same situation. I started with flowering 42 plants. As time goes on I found its easier to use 16 and veg for 14 to 20 days. I cut clones, veg them, and when I harvest my flood and drain, my pre vegged clones go in the same night. I get 5 runs a year doing 10 week cycles. (2 weeks to stretch, 8 to flower)


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## f series (Oct 25, 2019)

Wow that's crazy looking lol. Idk the answer, just saying this is cool


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## SamWE19 (Oct 25, 2019)

f series said:


> Wow that's crazy looking lol. Idk the answer, just saying this is cool


It’s strange. This is why this time I let them stretch before moving them over to this vertical system as I thought a solid branch would bend less.

If I put newly cut clones in there they grow up into each other. It’s weird as I’ve seen photos of vert systems and they don’t do that


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## ubluntu (Oct 25, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Any ideas why they aren’t pulling directly to the light and seem to be turning upwards?


Gravitropism trumps Phototropism


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## SamWE19 (Oct 25, 2019)

ubluntu said:


> Gravitropism trumps Phototropism


How do other vertical systems work then?


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## Renfro (Oct 25, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> How do other vertical systems work then?


Pretty much the same unless you are training the plants.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 25, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Pretty much the same unless you are training the plants.


Do you grow 4 per sqft?


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## ubluntu (Oct 25, 2019)

I not sure what tricks they use to fight gravity. All the vert grows i've seen the plants still grow mostly upwards. The leaves turn and shoots grow towards the light but still mostly upward. Maybe tying plants or leaning the whole system so it's not completely 90' might help.
Some species like tomatos are not gravitropic. Likewise some strains will grow better towards side lighting too.


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## hybridway2 (Oct 25, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I don’t have any problems or deficiencies growing with seeds. I wouldn’t want to switch to clones on the basis that they are “easier” to grow.. renting isn’t possible atm.
> 
> I’m interested in how clones will produce higher yield than seeds though based on profit per year not per harvest or plant in this instance though.


Edit: just read you have already recieved same advice. 
If you want production & guaranteed movement of the product you have to pick keepers from the seeds n run them. Ever heard of a Pheno Hunt. 1/2 the seeds you have may not produce desirable material.
Growing from seed is the worst if looking to flip anything. Keepers produce more of better. What else is there???
I do it once a year sometimes twice only because i have to for new gentics. Oh, 1 out of 20 seeds is probably a hermie which will ruin a whole room overnight. Had that happen to me on a pheno hunt last year w/ only 6 seeds.
Also, clones are a sure thing, fastest to make into a fully matured plant. My clones equal allot of peoples teens. That's all up to your goal.
I recommend cloning x1 of each seed prior to going into flower. Lable well & accurate. Flower. After drying your harvest you will now know which plants to keep & which to toss. Toss out the undesired clones, keep the ones you like, grow it a little, clone the shit outta it then slap her into flower & be double sure she's your keeper by the second run.
Now you have however many strains of keepers only to continually clone & succeed w/o guessing & losing crops to seeds or prophits to Swag.
Yup, its allot of work but you only have to do it once.
GoodLuck bud!


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## RocketBoy (Oct 25, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Ok say I change to cuttings my main room was built with space in mind. It is very difficult to get to the plants once they are in there. As space is tight.
> 
> If it will take me 8 weeks per cycle and If only get 1 oz per rooted clone it will be less than I get now. I don’t think I’ve seen anyone on here get more than 1 oz per 12/12 from clone?


Old NL5xHaze, 12/12 from clone, over an Oz per plant. You could waste your time with inconsistent seed runs or find a killer pheno from a good genetic seed/mom and clone.


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## Renfro (Oct 25, 2019)

True production facilities take things a step further and they shotgun their beans for pheno hunting in a separate grow room that is isolated so as not to have any chance of interfering with production numbers. One pollen chucking hermie thats caught too late would trash a whole room of product.


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## hybridway2 (Oct 25, 2019)

Even w/o a plant count, id still want a month min. Veg. Takes lil over 2 months to flower. I take my cuts right before flip. When flower is over i have aprox 2 mo. Veg monsters.
Harvest, Deep Clean, Repeat. Thats how ive always done it. Never understood any other way except perpetual but that never allows for the Deep Cleanse of the room & would cause me a headache if having to mix seperate strength feeds rather then mixing up one rez.
I don't even have mother plants.


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## hybridway2 (Oct 25, 2019)

Renfro said:


> True production facilities take things a step further and they shotgun their beans for pheno hunting in a separate grow room that is isolated so as not to have any chance of interfering with production numbers. One pollen chucking hermie thats caught too late would trash a whole room of product.


Man, i 100% agree with you on seperate room for pheno hunting. Have x2 Big Fem. Seed BrideZillas to flower with the rest of the room rn & am nervous AF.


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## Blue back (Oct 25, 2019)

hybridway2 said:


> Even w/o a plant count, id still want a month min. Veg. Takes lil over 2 months to flower. I take my cuts right before flip. When flower is over i have aprox 2 mo. Veg monsters.
> Harvest, Deep Clean, Repeat. Thats how ive always done it. Never understood any other way except perpetual but that never allows for the Deep Cleanse of the room & would cause me a headache if having to mix seperate strength feeds rather then mixing up one rez.
> I don't even have mother plants.



This is the way I do it also. The problem that occurs doing this is for the veggers geting too big. No mother's either. I realize there's a risk of losing strains this way but I really don't have room for mother's.


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## hybridway2 (Oct 25, 2019)

There's plenty of cuts to be used off your veg plants. Already pre-lolli-popped a little n left some clones to take in a few days. 
Never had an issue. Ran 3 strains for 3 yrs this way before switching up. NP.


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## Lucky Luke (Oct 26, 2019)

hybridway2 said:


> There's plenty of cuts to be used off your veg plants. Already pre-lolli-popped a little n left some clones to take in a few days.
> Never had an issue. Ran 3 strains for 3 yrs this way before switching up. NP. View attachment 4412767View attachment 4412768View attachment 4412769


nice clean set up and method.


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## Renfro (Oct 26, 2019)

hybridway2 said:


> There's plenty of cuts to be used off your veg plants. Already pre-lolli-popped a little n left some clones to take in a few days.
> Never had an issue. Ran 3 strains for 3 yrs this way before switching up. NP. View attachment 4412767View attachment 4412768View attachment 4412769


Too bad the OP is in a loft with low ceilings. Nice grow.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 26, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Too bad the OP is in a loft with low ceilings. Nice grow.


Yeah unfortunately I have no other option atm

You keep missing my question to you bud I’m curious if your growing 1 per ft or 4 in your sog


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## Renfro (Oct 26, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Yeah unfortunately I have no other option atm
> 
> You keep missing my question to you bud I’m curious if your growing 1 per ft or 4 in your sog


I did no veg SoG bigtime for 7 years in multiple locations at once. I ran 48 plants per 4x4 area (1kW SE HPS). 7x7 grid - 1 for tray fittings. Consistently pulled a little over 2 pounds per light, averaged about 20 - 21 grams per plant. I would lollipop them at day 20 to make the focus all their energy on the top. Made for super fast trimming and all nice nugs. Strain is KEY! You want a phenotype thats suited to your setup.

Cheat a little by rooting the clones for 20 days in a tray of rapid rooters, they should have roots that are 12 - 14 inches long and white. Then transplant and flip. I used 6 inch square pots with hydroton.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 26, 2019)

Renfro said:


> I did no veg SoG bigtime for 7 years in multiple locations at once. I ran 48 plants per 4x4 area (1kW SE HPS). 7x7 grid - 1 for tray fittings. Consistently pulled a little over 2 pounds per light, averaged about 20 - 21 grams per plant. I would lollipop them at day 20 to make the focus all their energy on the top. Made for super fast trimming and all nice nugs. Strain is KEY! You want a phenotype thats suited to your setup.
> 
> Cheat a little by rooting the clones for 20 days in a tray of rapid rooters, they should have roots that are 12 - 14 inches long and white. Then transplant and flip. I used 6 inch square pots with hydroton.


My vert system is setup as 1 per sqft you got any recommendations of how you would amend your system to take advantage of the space? I’d need to avg 63g per plant to get the yield your getting in this system.

I’m starting to wonder if I should use these two rooms as separate systems instead of transferring over


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## Renfro (Oct 26, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> My vert system is setup as 1 per sqft you got any recommendations of how you would amend your system to take advantage of the space? I’d need to avg 63g per plant to get the yield your getting in this system.
> 
> I’m starting to wonder if I should use these two rooms as separate systems instead of transferring over


Not really. Thats kinda a tweener setup, not really something I would do personally. I either grow them really big for plant count reasons and to gain side canopy area (that I side light) or I do a no veg SoG for fastest turn around at a gram per watt. I don't care what a plant yields in a SoG, just my yield per square foot. If you are vegging a SoG then you are wasting time IMO. Cut big clones, root the fuck outta them and flower them. Any strain that doesn't like that has to go in a commercial facility.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 26, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Not really. Thats kinda a tweener setup, not really something I would do personally. I either grow them really big for plant count reasons and to gain side canopy area (that I side light) or I do a no veg SoG for fastest turn around at a gram per watt. I don't care what a plant yields in a SoG, just my yield per square foot. If you are vegging a SoG then you are wasting time IMO. Cut big clones, root the fuck outta them and flower them. Any strain that doesn't like that has to go in a commercial facility.


Do you think I could put 4 clones in the same 4 inch net pot to get 4 per sqft?


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## Renfro (Oct 26, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Do you think I could put 4 clones in the same 4 inch net pot to get 4 per sqft?


If the roots can grow outside of the pot that might work but a little effort will be required to train the plants to spread out so they won't just drown each other out and end up with runts. I aimed to let each clone grow up through one 6 inch hole in my hortitrellis.

My no veg SoG plants ended up about 40 - 44 inches tall. In a SoG I want a strain that really jumps up when it's flipped to 12/12. Strains that make fat colas, not a bunch of smaller buds like say GSC.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 26, 2019)

Renfro said:


> If the roots can grow outside of the pot that might work but a little effort will be required to train the plants to spread out so they won't just drown each other out and end up with runts. I aimed to let each clone grow up through one 6 inch hole in my hortitrellis.
> 
> My no veg SoG plants ended up about 40 - 44 inches tall. In a SoG I want a strain that really jumps up when it's flipped to 12/12. Strains that make fat colas, not a bunch of smaller buds like say GSC.


Yeah I’m thinking I may have made a mistake going vertical. I don’t see how I could ever get 40 inch tall plants in that system as they would just be growing into each other... unless I have multiple rows of ScrOG nets but even when the branch is bent over the buds stretch upwards I don’t know if you can see what I mean from this pic but the buds all stretch up towards the sky not towards the light... even with 1000 ppfd


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## Thundercat (Oct 26, 2019)

I've seen some awesome vertical grows over the years. Most of them used screens to support and control the plants to make an effective canopy. 

Could you slide your tubes closer together to increase the amount of plants you could run per sq/ft. You might be able to add 30-50% more plants by eliminating the space between each row. Then maybe even try 2 plants per growth sight and add 50% more again. 

I'm sure you have noticed certain plants growing differently in the system because of being different phenotypes. Some plants might yield better or worse, some plants might be branchy vs more straight, some plants smell or taste differently. Eliminating all those variables is the advantage to using clones. You can run one or a few phenotypes that perform better than the rest, so that the whole garden does better, tastes better, smells better......  

If you found a phenotype that performed well for you and filled the whole system up with clones of that plant, and then used some screen or netting to really support the budding plants you should notice a solid increase in system output. Supporting plants is huge when you want them to yield well.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 26, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> I've seen some awesome vertical grows over the years. Most of them used screens to support and control the plants to make an effective canopy.
> 
> Could you slide your tubes closer together to increase the amount of plants you could run per sq/ft. You might be able to add 30-50% more plants by eliminating the space between each row. Then maybe even try 2 plants per growth sight and add 50% more again.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your input buddy. Those pvc pipes cost me 2000 dollars lol they are very expensive where I am from probably because nobody manufactures them from here so it’s all imported. Couldn’t really get many more in. I could possibly get one more vertical stack in between every other pipe so 4 more stacks on each side of my system that would work out 13 stacks of 5 on each side.

My lights provide a canopy of around 3m x 1.4m on each side. So I’d have 65 plants under around 42 sqft that way.

If I had bought 4 inch pipe rather than 6 inch I could probably got 90 plants per side making it 2 per sqft

My best option would be to put 4 clones in each pot and somehow spread them out evenly I think

Although I’ll struggle for space for enough mums for 360 clones every 8 weeks


----------



## mustbetribbin (Oct 26, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Here’s a full view of my vertical system...
> 
> At the canopy using an apogee par meter I am getting 900-1100ppfd.
> 
> ...


What kind of LED setup are you running, what type of spectrum do those diodes cover?

If you aren't supplementing with IR & UV then your plants aren't going to experience optimal growing conditions, you would be leaving 2 very important ends of the non visible spectrum out of your growing area, causing detrimental problems to the growth of your plants, especially if you plan to train them for horizontal growth.


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 26, 2019)

mustbetribbin said:


> What kind of LED setup are you running, what type of spectrum do those diodes cover?
> 
> If you aren't supplementing with IR & UV then your plants aren't going to experience optimal growing conditions, you would be leaving 2 very important ends of the non visible spectrum out of your growing area, causing detrimental problems to the growth of your plants, especially if you plan to train them for horizontal growth.


Citizen 1212 cobs.

That’s a first I've seen many people use cobs on their own with absolutely no problem.


----------



## mustbetribbin (Oct 26, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Citizen 1212 cobs.
> 
> That’s a first I've seen many people use cobs on their own with absolutely no problem.


80 or 90 cri version?

What Kelvin temp are the citizen 1212's?


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 26, 2019)

mustbetribbin said:


> 80 or 90 cri version?
> 
> What Kelvin temp are the citizen 1212's?


3500K and a mix of half 80 and half 90 cri 2 of each on each heatsink


----------



## f series (Oct 26, 2019)

Ir and uv clearly aren't needed to grow weed


----------



## Renfro (Oct 26, 2019)

mustbetribbin said:


> If you aren't supplementing with IR & UV then your plants aren't going to experience optimal growing conditions


Incorrect. You actually can grow even better weed without them. IKR? But it's true. Just have to run hotter temps with out the IR. I didn't believe this until I saw the results from my first proper LED grow. Better terpene production was obvious without the IR and UV. UV may seem to promote resin production but it also degrades THC.


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## Renfro (Oct 26, 2019)

Just because the sun produces a spectrum doesn't mean the plant likes it or requires it. The whole harvesting after lights out was because of UV degrading the THC. THC levels would be highest right before lights on or sun up. Eliminating the UV from the spectrum eliminates the need to harvest without lighting. Really you gotta try a proper LED grow, not some cheap ass blurple LED but a good one. You will need to run warmer temperatures, save some money on AC. Terpene production will amaze you. THC is a diterpene.


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Just because the sun produces a spectrum doesn't mean the plant likes it or requires it. The whole harvesting after lights out was because of UV degrading the THC. THC levels would be highest right before lights on or sun up. Eliminating the UV from the spectrum eliminates the need to harvest without lighting. Really you gotta try a proper LED grow, not some cheap ass blurple LED but a good one. You will need to run warmer temperatures, save some money on AC. Terpene production will amaze you. THC is a diterpene.


What temp would you recommend with co2 and without co2 using leds? And how would you accurately measure temps? Temp probe within the canopy or IR temp laser on the leaf surface?


----------



## diggs99 (Oct 27, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> What temp would you recommend with co2 and without co2 using leds? And how would you accurately measure temps? Temp probe within the canopy or IR temp laser on the leaf surface?



84-87f seem to be a sweet spot for temps with leds , with or without co2 from what I've gathered.


Get an enviro controller with a long wired probe, place it at canopy height. Also temp guns are good to have around to check numerous spots across the crop.

That's a cool very setup man, I'll be following along , best of luck on your journey.


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

diggs99 said:


> 84-87f seem to be a sweet spot for temps with leds , with or without co2 from what I've gathered.
> 
> 
> Get an enviro controller with a long wired probe, place it at canopy height. Also temp guns are good to have around to check numerous spots across the crop.
> ...


Those temps do seem really high though. I’ve read about 80f but a lot of terps evaporate at that temps I don’t want buds that don’t smell. 

Gonna look into using my dwc setup as a sort of nft cloner so I can bin my ez cloner and stack mother’s where I have the ez cloner. 360 clones in my dwc/nft system 8 weeks of rooting then into flower 

Trying to figure out if I should invest in a large net or individual plant cones to separate them out atm. 

If I go with a net I may need multiple layers of net, need to make sure I can pull the buds out at harvest without chopping stems so I can hang dry. 

Plant cones could work but will cost me around 1000 dollars to buy enough of them


----------



## diggs99 (Oct 27, 2019)

Nah those temps work fine. My room has been running at 85.4 and 60-70% rh and the plants love it.

I'm not running co2 currently.

I won't drop temps to low 80s(seems too low tbh) until last 2 weeks of flower, I'll drop both temps and rh down to avoid pm and mould.


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

diggs99 said:


> Nah those temps work fine. My room has been running at 85.4 and 60-70% rh and the plants love it.
> 
> I'm not running co2 currently.
> 
> I won't drop temps to low 80s(seems too low tbh) until last 2 weeks of flower, I'll drop both temps and rh down to avoid pm and mould.


I’ll have to up my temps a bit then I think. I’m at 25c but that’s with a temp sensor at pot level below canopy. Need to get a ir sensor to be sure

I managed to find a cheap supplier of plant cones.. 
I wonder if these dimensions would be suitable for my grow. 

I can create hooks on my pvc pipe to attach it to and I can make sure each clone goes around the ring so they will have around 6 inches between them... would that be enough space between them or do I need a larger plant cone?


----------



## hybridway2 (Oct 27, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Just because the sun produces a spectrum doesn't mean the plant likes it or requires it. The whole harvesting after lights out was because of UV degrading the THC. THC levels would be highest right before lights on or sun up. Eliminating the UV from the spectrum eliminates the need to harvest without lighting. Really you gotta try a proper LED grow, not some cheap ass blurple LED but a good one. You will need to run warmer temperatures, save some money on AC. Terpene production will amaze you. THC is a diterpene.


I disagree with your UV lights out chop theory.
Cut them before they piss. Gardeners have been doing this for yrs.
My exhaust fan is set to kick on at lights out & on. The stinky times. Chopping before they stink is released.
Done both & find a day or 2 of darkness before chop ripens them up.
I do believe light companies should offer a sunset/sunrise effect as lame as i once thought it was. 
Sudden Humidity swings would be reduced big time, helping many beat the PM if their room is not set-up to handle the swings.


----------



## hybridway2 (Oct 27, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Those temps do seem really high though. I’ve read about 80f but a lot of terps evaporate at that temps I don’t want buds that don’t smell.
> 
> Gonna look into using my dwc setup as a sort of nft cloner so I can bin my ez cloner and stack mother’s where I have the ez cloner. 360 clones in my dwc/nft system 8 weeks of rooting then into flower
> 
> ...


Ive done both & they both have their Pro's n Cons. In end, the easiest, fastest way for me by far was double trellis netting. I run 6" on the bottom & 3.5" on the top. Would be nice to have light movers in my situation though, something you wouldn't want so much if you did individual cages. 
First run was tomatoe cages. Didnt cut the mustard. To much buds n branches. 
Second run i bought a 5' x 50' roll of 2.5"x5" rectangular whole fencing or around $60 i think, maybe less. Wrapped around each plant with zip ties, cut opening for feeding & training access n pulled on heck of a harvest. Pounder plants n still had room to move them around & walk the room rather then crawling under a net like i did for a few yrs after that. 
Many ways, youll find what works best for you. A lil trial n error goes a long way.


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

hybridway2 said:


> Ive done both & they both have their Pro's n Cons. In end, the easiest, fastest way for me by far was double trellis netting. I run 6" on the bottom & 3.5" on the top. Would be nice to have light movers in my situation though, something you wouldn't want so much if you did individual cages.
> First run was tomatoe cages. Didnt cut the mustard. To much buds n branches.
> Second run i bought a 5' x 50' roll of 2.5"x5" rectangular whole fencing or around $60 i think, maybe less. Wrapped around each plant with zip ties, cut opening for feeding & training access n pulled on heck of a harvest. Pounder plants n still had room to move them around & walk the room rather then crawling under a net like i did for a few yrs after that.
> Many ways, youll find what works best for you. A lil trial n error goes a long way.


Can you easily remove whole plants from
The trellis when you harvest without chopping up branches? I imagine buds getting stuck in there


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

I’ve just realised when drawing up plans I can’t clone in my dwc/nft system as if I don’t get 100% success rate I’ll end up with missing plant sites. 

Anyone got any recommendations of cloning methods that use very little space? Currently got an ez cloner which takes up a lot of space (120 site) and i was gonna use that space for mother’s... plus I need enough space for 400 clones


----------



## Renfro (Oct 27, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Anyone got any recommendations of cloning methods that use very little space?


Cloning is so simple and can be made so difficult.

I use a tray of rapid rooters with a dome. Keep just enough water in the bottom of the tray that the little slots stay full. The dome should have condensation on the inside and it will "rain" on the cuttings. Works great for me, it's rare if I have one that doesn't root. Try to keep the tray around 80 degrees, they root faster warm. Heat mats work but use an inkbird temperature controller. I just set mine to the side in my veg room so they get indirect light.


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

Just thinking out loud here now...

Rather than putting up 4 clones in a 4 inch net pot in my dwc system I could maybe make some kind of modification since I have 8/7 week cycles for the first 2 weeks I could have them filled with neoprene rings and when I know I have enough clones I could transfer them to 4 inch pots...

Maybe buy spare lids and swap lids over


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Cloning is so simple and can be made so difficult.
> 
> I use a tray of rapid rooters with a dome. Keep just enough water in the bottom of the tray that the little slots stay full. The dome should have condensation on the inside and it will "rain" on the cuttings. Works great for me, it's rare if I have one that doesn't root. Try to keep the tray around 80 degrees, they root faster warm. Heat mats work but use an inkbird temperature controller. I just set mine to the side in my veg room so they get indirect light.


Do you think i would have good success cloning in my dwc system Baring in mind it doesn’t have bubbles popping it relies on 16000lph water circulation with 3 venturis pumping water into the control bucket. So I’d have to have the stems submerged in the oxygenated water


----------



## hybridway2 (Oct 27, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Can you easily remove whole plants from
> The trellis when you harvest without chopping up branches? I imagine buds getting stuck in there


Its not that bad. I come from below in pull allot through, making sure not to pop off buds. Sometimes cut from top then bottom. 
120 site Sleazy-Cloner @60 cuts per clone will allow bigger/taller clones & spit out a tray every 10 days. Can re-use water in it for quite awhile using ClearRez once every 10-14 days. Just simple Clone-X


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## Renfro (Oct 27, 2019)

Man it's sounds more and more like a genuine cluster fuck to me.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Man it's sounds more and more like a genuine cluster fuck to me.


How come? Since I’m limited on space and you can’t see the whole room I can understand how confusing it all May be


I’ve considered all the advice in this thread. I’ve now started 110 royal gorilla seeds, picked best 90 seedlings after germination and have the 90 growing now. I’ll monitor these and clone all 90 and compare notes from seed batch to clone batch and pick the best clone for a mother.

I’m considering a large nft gro tank for the mother’s since they are low profile. I’ll have 200cm x 60cm of space for the mother’s and probably scrog them with a net with 2 inch holes to hopefully manage 400 clones every 7/8 weeks. 

The dwc tank will be used for the first 2 weeks of a cycle as a cloner and then pot up the clones 4 clones per 4 inch net pot. 

Allow to root for another couple of weeks to 6-8 inches then transfer to the main vertical flower room which I’ll use either those tomato cages or a chicken wire screen 

How’s that sound?


----------



## Renfro (Oct 27, 2019)

The whole trying to jam 4 plants in one pot thing is where things started going downhill.

Just grow less plants. Culling males, hermies and preventing larger plants from just drowning out the smaller ones will be difficult.

But hey, what do I know.


----------



## SamWE19 (Oct 27, 2019)

Renfro said:


> The whole trying to jam 4 plants in one pot thing is where things started going downhill.
> 
> Just grow less plants. Culling males, hermies and preventing larger plants from just drowning out the smaller ones will be difficult.
> 
> But hey, what do I know.


Culling males, hermies and preventing larger plants are all issues with seeds though right? I’m talking about clones


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## Renfro (Oct 27, 2019)

Man, four plants in one pot is just not the way to go IMO. But hey, maybe you can prove me wrong. If you really wanna get more branching off the get go you could monster crop your clones. Really though, best to just run one plant per site and FIM them to get your branching.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 28, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Man, four plants in one pot is just not the way to go IMO. But hey, maybe you can prove me wrong. If you really wanna get more branching off the get go you could monster crop your clones. Really though, best to just run one plant per site and FIM them to get your branching.


Why do you think four per pot isn’t the way to go? Interested in your thoughts. Roots will immediately grow out of the pot into the hydroponic system with unrestricted growth. Even with 1 per pot the roots eventually tangle but seem to do perfectly fine? 

I also use mychorize so the roots all connect together and work in symbiosis with a chain of hyphae connecting all plants together.


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## Capn-Crunch (Oct 28, 2019)

Not to disparage you Sam, but it doesn't sound to me like you're quite ready to plan and run an efficient for profit commercial grow.
You've had a lot of good advise posted on here that should prove be very helpful though.
At this point I think you should scale back the set up until you have a better grasp of what's going to happen.
The highest plant count grow I've ever done was 70 at one time with limited space, resources, etc, similar to your situation, and
believe me, it was an eye opener for sure!
As I said earlier, not trying to rain on your parade. Good luck bro


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## Renfro (Oct 28, 2019)

Capn-Crunch said:


> Not to disparage you Sam, but it doesn't sound to me like you're quite ready to plan and run an efficient for profit commercial grow.
> You've had a lot of good advise posted on here that should prove be very helpful though.
> At this point I think you should scale back the set up until you have a better grasp of what's going to happen.
> The highest plant count grow I've ever done was 70 at one time with limited space, resources, etc, similar to your situation, and
> ...


This is sound advice. Rome wasn't built in a day. The problems that can arise with such a setup are difficult to anticipate until you have put a plan into action. Aside from setup related issues you also have to contend with all the normal hurdles that growers need to deal with such as pests, mold / mildew, pollen from bananas, equipment failures... just so many things. more can go wrong than right to be honest. With a setup like you are proposing it will take several runs to really figure things out, make changes, adapt using real world experience with your setup. If all goes well then after 3 or 4 runs you will be dialed in and producing with whatever setup evolves for you. So set your goals low and inch that bar up each run. Now is the time to try a few different ideas to see what works. A strain change can make one system great and another shitty. Lots of variables, more than I think you are imagining.


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## Renfro (Oct 28, 2019)

I had well over 20 years of growing experience under my belt when I moved from Missouri to Colorado. Even with all that experience under my belt it took me a couple years to get my grow really on it's feet and it's continued to evolve since then. Never stop learning, don't be afraid to try new things, be open minded. I have learned more in the last 7 years than I did in the 23 before that.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 28, 2019)

Capn-Crunch said:


> Not to disparage you Sam, but it doesn't sound to me like you're quite ready to plan and run an efficient for profit commercial grow.
> You've had a lot of good advise posted on here that should prove be very helpful though.
> At this point I think you should scale back the set up until you have a better grasp of what's going to happen.
> The highest plant count grow I've ever done was 70 at one time with limited space, resources, etc, similar to your situation, and
> ...



I have been running 90 plants for 4 years... I’m looking to maximise the yield. Unfortunately for 3 of those years it wasn’t legal though.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 28, 2019)

Renfro said:


> I had well over 20 years of growing experience under my belt when I moved from Missouri to Colorado. Even with all that experience under my belt it took me a couple years to get my grow really on it's feet and it's continued to evolve since then. Never stop learning, don't be afraid to try new things, be open minded. I have learned more in the last 7 years than I did in the 23 before that.


I have changed my setup 3 times in the last 4 years alone It’s been a nightmare changing it. After lots of planning vertical was the best use of the space though. I have been growing for a total of 8 years starting off with just a 1m2 tent worked my way up to this


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## Renfro (Oct 28, 2019)

I hope something we have shared helps you along towards your goals. Not really sure what more we have to offer as far as advice goes.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 28, 2019)

Renfro said:


> I hope something we have shared helps you along towards your goals. Not really sure what more we have to offer as far as advice goes.


I appreciate all the advice. I’ve considered it all and that’s why I’m heading down the route of a proper sog with 4 per sqft. Also pheno hunting for mother plants to keep now aswell. 

Going to arrange some sort of trellis for the buds to keep them angled to the lights and spaced evenly. Just not sure if I should do individual cages or a net atm.


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## Thundercat (Oct 28, 2019)

I’m inclined to think individual supports might be a huge pain in those tubes. Putting up trellis nets in front of the whole wall would be much cheaper and should provide good support.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 28, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> I’m inclined to think individual supports might be a huge pain in those tubes. Putting up trellis nets in front of the whole wall would be much cheaper and should provide good support.


I was thinking the same individual supports costing around 350-400 usd or the net costing less than 60 usd 

I’m struggling to figure how I am going to mount the net though. I was planning on making a wood frame and line it With Mylar that I sit between the light stack and the pipes to reflect light hitting the floor. So I wouldn’t be able to mount the net frame on the floor. 

You have any ideas?


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## Mechanicalbuds (Oct 28, 2019)

Agreed, very cool!


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## Ryante55 (Oct 28, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> If I use clones I’m only gonna have room
> For one strain. I would need one hell of a strain that people won’t get bored of and yields good


You must not sell much I thing you meant to say hobby grow in the title not commercial


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## SamWE19 (Oct 28, 2019)

Ryante55 said:


> You must not sell much I thing you meant to say hobby grow in the title not commercial


I have been selling 120-150 oz every 8 weeks easily enough so far


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## Renfro (Oct 28, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I have been selling 120-150 oz every 8 weeks easily enough so far


Commercial is more like at least 50 pounds a deal.


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## Renfro (Oct 28, 2019)

When you have to seriously start considering transportation logistics, like renting a box truck, then you are commercial.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 28, 2019)

Renfro said:


> When you have to seriously start considering transportation logistics, like renting a box truck, then you are commercial.



Well it pays the bills for now lol. I will eventually have to expand when big companies start churning out tonnes of bud.


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## Renfro (Oct 28, 2019)

In your position I would focus on quality and rare genetics and the like, not yields. Competing against commercial grows, your niche is to provide superior quality at a smaller scale. Changing your focus to yields in order to compete with the big boys is going to hurt in the long run as your prices will fall dramatically.


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## hybridway2 (Oct 28, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I was thinking the same individual supports costing around 350-400 usd or the net costing less than 60 usd
> 
> I’m struggling to figure how I am going to mount the net though. I was planning on making a wood frame and line it With Mylar that I sit between the light stack and the pipes to reflect light hitting the floor. So I wouldn’t be able to mount the net frame on the floor.
> 
> You have any ideas?


Im sorry but for 8yrs of growing & with a high plant # the questions you're asking & contemplating are very amateur hour. Sorry dude. No offense 

But you can kill it just starting fresh. The more i learned the harder it got. Lol! Great threads here doing that type if growing. Check out The Kix Way @Kix for one. 
Individual support is caging for dirt cheap. 
Not for your intented goals of many plants in a 1x1 though. I'd recommend 3.5" Trellis netting. X2 rows. 
5x30' is like $20 , i dont pay attention but buy it every grow. 
Ferring strip on wall, screw every 6" . Hang net. Although i wish i made mine adjustable up n down rather then fixed.


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## Ryante55 (Oct 28, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I have been selling 120-150 oz every 8 weeks easily enough so far


Commercial growers don't sell oz they sell lbs soon it will probably be by the ton


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## SamWE19 (Oct 30, 2019)

Well I considered commercial a business that makes an income that pays the bills.. 

Either way all advice here has been helpful thanks.

Gonna start a journal soon to follow the pheno selection process


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Well I considered commercial a business that makes an income that pays the bills..


Definitely a small business, profession.


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

I for one believe there will always be a market for high quality home grown. Always. So focus on that, quality not quantity.


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## Frank Nitty (Oct 30, 2019)

They produce higher yields because they are mature plants and are easier to grow because u have grown them time and time again.


Lucky Luke said:


> 3rd or 4th run you should have them dialed in.


Oh, I like that!!! Gonna set up a place just for photos to do it!!!


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## SamWE19 (Oct 30, 2019)

Renfro said:


> I for one believe there will always be a market for high quality home grown. Always. So focus on that, quality not quantity.


Could use your help on my new pheno Hunt post that I’ll start in a week or two. Will need the advice to find the quality phenos


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## Frank Nitty (Oct 30, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Could use your help on my new pheno Hunt post that I’ll start in a week or two. Will need the advice to find the quality phenos


Tag me in too for that


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Could use your help on my new pheno Hunt post that I’ll start in a week or two. Will need the advice to find the quality phenos


You cut clones off each plant. Then flower the plants. Keep the clones (now plants) that correspond to the winners of the flowering run.


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

veg and top the rooted clones and when you are ready you have lots of cuts ready from the winners. Label carefully.


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## Frank Nitty (Oct 30, 2019)

Renfro said:


> veg and top the rooted clones and when you are ready you have lots of cuts ready from the winners. Label carefully.


I'm all over this!!!


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## SamWE19 (Oct 30, 2019)

Renfro said:


> veg and top the rooted clones and when you are ready you have lots of cuts ready from the winners. Label carefully.


Would you not flower the rooted clones to see how they react as a clone not a seed, take clones of all the clones and compare the flowered seed to the flowered clones and pick the winner from the 2nd generation of clones?


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Would you not flower the rooted clones to see how they react as a clone not a seed, take clones of all the clones and compare the flowered seed to the flowered clones and pick the winner from the 2nd generation of clones?


You can do that too, I like to cull obvious losers the first run and keep anything that has potential, then sort the true winner over the next few runs running batches of clones from each. You may find that two plants that have the same quality and yield will vary on something else like rooting time.


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

Really stable strains are harder to cull because the plants are all very similar.


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

Personally I think that to get that one rare plant you have to shotgun at least 100 beans. The more tickets the better chance of hitting the winning number.


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

Ill give you an example from my past. Shiva. I had 10 beans. Popped them all. 2 were male. 8 were female and produced high quality flower that you couldn't tell apart so I kept the two that had the biggest buds (all plants were the same size going into flower). Ran those two for about a year and noted that one rooted faster than the other so I narrowed it down to that one. Ran the fuck outta that strain for over 7 years in multiple grows, made a fortune.


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## Manzanilla (Oct 30, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Ill give you an example from my past. Shiva. I had 10 beans. Popped them all. 2 were male. 8 were female and produced high quality flower that you couldn't tell apart so I kept the two that had the biggest buds (all plants were the same size going into flower). Ran those two for about a year and noted that one rooted faster than the other so I narrowed it down to that one. Ran the fuck outta that strain for over 7 years in multiple grows, made a fortune.


Are you saying that you cloned from one single plant for 7 years? Or did you clone from clones from the one original plant? And if so did you see any difference in the strain after a few years or was everything as the first set?


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

Manzanilla said:


> Are you saying that you cloned from one single plant for 7 years? Or did you clone from clones from the one original plant? And if so did you see any difference in the strain after a few years or was everything as the first set?


Clone from clones, no degradation, moms kept for about a year each time.


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

The whole genetic degradation is a myth. You can clone from clones.


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## Manzanilla (Oct 30, 2019)

Thank you and noted!


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

LEts examine the genetic drift theory.

You cut 100 clones. If a mutation happens would it happen to all of them? Would the mutation likely be severe and cause unhealthy plant thats just not viable? Lots of questions there. I don't see it as being an issue.


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## Manzanilla (Oct 30, 2019)

I started planting only this year so I’m very new to this but I also started cloning from clones and didn’t see any difference in the strain but as I said first I only started this year. Had a big problem with my electrical setup and now have to start over from scratch with seeds as all my plants had to go outdoors for a few weeks while I sorted my electrical problem and now all are almost finished flowering but looking lovely!


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## Manzanilla (Oct 30, 2019)

Renfro said:


> LEts examine the genetic drift theory.
> 
> You cut 100 clones. If a mutation happens would it happen to all of them? Would the mutation likely be severe and cause unhealthy plant thats just not viable? Lots of questions there. I don't see it as being an issue.


Any questionable looking plants I got, I dumped! No wasting time!


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

Manzanilla said:


> didn’t see any difference in the strain


phenotype


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## Renfro (Oct 30, 2019)

Think of a strain as children from the same parents. Think of a phenotype as an individual child from those parents.


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## Manzanilla (Oct 30, 2019)

Thanks for the correction and education. Everyday I learn something new.


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## SamWE19 (Oct 31, 2019)

I planted 110 beans so hopefully I have a good gene pool. Automatically culled 20.

I started then off in a bottom watered seedling tray and left them for 2 weeks whilst I sorted other things. Fed no nutes for those 2 weeks.

I culled the 20 which didn’t look healthy, had the smallest amount of growth or some deformed leaves.


That’s left me with 90 in my dwc system now. They all starting to pick up now since they have a decent feed


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## SamWE19 (Oct 31, 2019)

Are RQS good genetics in the grand scheme of things? These 90 are their royal gorilla supposed to be their breed of gorilla glue


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## f series (Oct 31, 2019)

I've never grown rqs, I can't see myself getting their seeds ever tbh


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## f series (Oct 31, 2019)

Unless George from the vault wants to share


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## SamWE19 (Oct 31, 2019)

f series said:


> I've never grown rqs, I can't see myself getting their seeds ever tbh


Mind sharing why you wouldn’t? Also what breeders would you recommend then?


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## f series (Oct 31, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Mind sharing why you wouldn’t? Also what breeders would you recommend then?


I don't know shit, not gonna act, sorry.
I've had great results with seedsman, sweet seeds, and Barneys.
I'm sure others haven't


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## Frank Nitty (Oct 31, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Personally I think that to get that one rare plant you have to shotgun at least 100 beans. The more tickets the better chance of hitting the winning number.


I like that analogy...


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Think of a strain as children from the same parents. Think of a phenotype as an individual child from those parents.


If I grow these 90 royal gorillas as single colas do you think I will cause any issues with pheno selection? 

Im look for a strain that prefers to grow single colas, huge colas, strong smell, high thc, good flavour. I assume what we’re all looking for! 

I’m just curious if I should move them to my vert system and let them grow naturally to pheno select or grow them as I would in a 4/sqft sog


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## f series (Nov 1, 2019)

Sog + a single top is what I would do, that way you can record good info about branching and recovery


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## Renfro (Nov 1, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> If I grow these 90 royal gorillas as single colas do you think I will cause any issues with pheno selection?
> 
> Im look for a strain that prefers to grow single colas, huge colas, strong smell, high thc, good flavour. I assume what we’re all looking for!
> 
> I’m just curious if I should move them to my vert system and let them grow naturally to pheno select or grow them as I would in a 4/sqft sog


Select for whatever criteria you are after.


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## Keesje (Nov 1, 2019)

I am always willing to help people out (if I have any idea what it is about of course, and if I have something smart to add)
But just reading this topic made me so tired, that I lost all energy to give advice.
If you have a day job.... don't give it up yet.


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

Keesje said:


> I am always willing to help people out (if I have any idea what it is about of course, and if I have something smart to add)
> But just reading this topic made me so tired, that I lost all energy to give advice.
> If you have a day job.... don't give it up yet.


Clearly you didn’t have energy to read after the first post as you’d clearly see I make a decent profit off my business already. I was looking for opinions on maximising yield in a given space which I got and took on board and I’m implementing it now. Why even post at all if you don’t have the “energy” to offer any useful advice.


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## Frank Nitty (Nov 1, 2019)

This is where things could get ugly... Let's not screw up a good thread... PLEASE!!! Smoke something and CTFO!!!


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## Keesje (Nov 1, 2019)

You are right.
So my advice would be... get rid off the vertical growing asap. Use the space where you can not grow full size under the roof for mothers & clones.
Stop with the seeds. Clones only. Hunt for a good pheno first.


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

Keesje said:


> You are right.
> So my advice would be... get rid off the vertical growing asap. Use the space where you can not grow full size under the roof for mothers & clones.
> Stop with the seeds. Clones only. Hunt for a good pheno first.


There we go. Wasn’t so hard. As always I value everyone’s input. Others have mentioned the clone route which I’ve took on board and started.

Now many mistake me questioning advice with lack of experience etc but I call that business...

If you owned a shop and someone advised you to start selling a new product you would want to know why and what market research or evidence this person has in regards to this advice. 

What’s your reasoning behind getting rid of the vertical grow, I gained 4m2 of canopy doing this


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## Keesje (Nov 1, 2019)

Vertical grow has to many practical problems.
Just one for example: How will you get the lights closer or further away from your plants?
Moving your wall?
If you want high yields you have to find the soft spot for height. Not too far, not too close. With horizontal grow this works well.
How are you supporting heavy tops?


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

Keesje said:


> Vertical grow has to many practical problems.
> Just one for example: How will you get the lights closer or further away from your plants?
> Moving your wall?
> If you want high yields you have to find the soft spot for height. Not too far, not too close. With horizontal grow this works well.
> How are you supporting heavy tops?


I built my lights with that in mind. A par meter shows 1450 ppfd at the canopy of plants that grow 45cm out from the pipe. I am considering some sort of tomato cage to support tops atm

Unlikely to move them but the lights are mounted on caster wheels too


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## Flowki (Nov 1, 2019)

Nothing wrong with going vert imo. Instead of moving the lights, put the pots on wheels. This would ofc mean the vert cage/net you are using is also mounted on the same mobile fixture. It doesn't even have to be individual, you can connect 4 pots together on the same wheel system with a continuous net across them all. If such a set-up best utilises the space you have then go for it.. that's the point of the thread.

Forgive me I didn't read into where you get your seed supply so will assume you buy them.

Cons of that is they cost, obviously.. but more importantly you can't control outcome. Seeds of the same strain will have variance in end weight, even flower time. Run enough seeds you will also see occasional herms.

Pro is that seeds are easy to do, as is variance of strains. While cuttings eventually become more reliable it takes a few generations of culling to get to that point and if people get bored of it? time wasted. You also need a place to keep mothers or veg the next cycles plants, that could be very difficult to transition them into your verticle flower room set-up. More importantly on this part is that if you use space for mothers or veg, that is space you could have had more seeds going. In other words multiple flower rooms going direct from seed. This could be a good strat but entirely depends on the stability, quality and price of your seeds.

You won't need a lot of space to have a separate little seed starter system, under the stairs, under the bed.. what ever, just a place to get some roots going in tiny air pots 2 weeks or so prior to the flower room/s finishing. Essentially getting the seeds to the point where they can hit the ground running as soon as the flower space/s is free. Run enough seeds and you won't need much veg, sog can work vertically, on shelves.

If you do get into mothers (lol) you need a good space and set-up. You can't just half arse it, the plant needs to be as healthy and well looked after as possible for what should be obvious reasons down the line. Just putting that out there, since a lot of people seem to throw down the ''just use a mother'' statement too lightly.


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## Renfro (Nov 1, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> A par meter shows 1450 ppfd at the canopy of plants


Whew, no signs of light stress? I cant go past 1200 without problems.


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## Keesje (Nov 1, 2019)

Measuring light with a meter is very unreliable.
If you keep the meter at a slightly different angle, the values are different.
Also, for measuring PPFD you have to do several measurements on different spots.
So then it is even more important for doing it right.
Which is almost impossible.

If you want to do a reliable measurement you have to put your whole light in a Ulbricht sphere.

Measuring light with home devices is nice if your hobby is photography or if you want just some indication.


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Whew, no signs of light stress? I cant go past 1200 without problems.


Not yet as my plants dont grow to that close as they seem to grow up rather than out without the supports.

When I get my individual cages we will see. 

Plants will be forced to grow at the 45 degree angle I want which will mean a 60cm plant should theoretically be 45cm away from the pipes.

When I say my ppfd measurement that is an average taken across the entire canopy not just a random section. 

Since I have 4 cobs per sqft the light spread is very uniform


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Not yet as my plants dont grow to that close as they seem to grow up rather than out without the supports.
> 
> When I get my individual cages we will see.
> 
> ...


You take accurate measurements with a meter by making a mount. For example if I want to measure the canopy 60cm from the floor you take a 60cm piece of timber with another piece screwed to the end at a right angle. Slide it across the floor and take measurements repeat for 50cm 40cm etc the angle of the meter won’t change


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## oswizzle (Nov 1, 2019)

10 clones per sqft ... genetics that grow single cola...minimal to zero branching... str8 from after being rooted ... 320 cuts per 4x8 tray.... crush yields and trim nothing but primo top cola nug...

not a easy task by any means...but its how to get 6-7lbs per 4x8


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## Matt1983NS (Nov 1, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> If I grow a clone 12/12 from roots am I going to yield 2-3oz per plant? I don’t see it. 12/12 from seed I’ve gotten 2-3oz a plant I’ve never grown 12/12 from rooter cut though so I’m interested in hearing more


12/12 from seed won’t start flowering right away. They won’t start flowering until they’re mature. 
I run 12/12 from clones as soon as they root in 6 inch pots of coco coir. I hand water 56 plants at a time doing it this way. 
I have a disassembled steel garden shelf laying on top of two kiddie pools and it’s drain to waste. I put 6-18 plants in every two weeks for a staggered harvest but you could do one big crop. A problem I see with seeds is that even if they’re the same strain, the flowering times can be very different. If that’s not a problem for you then go for it. But optimizing you’re space leads to more harvests per yer. Waiting an extra two weeks for 6 plants to finish up would throw off my schedule. 
I do flower different strains at the same time but I know the flower time of each strain within a day or two. A small 2x4 veg/clone tent keeps me with enough room for mother’s and clones to keep perpetually harvesting. 
Anyway, of my 56 (give or take) clones flowering under 1600 watts, I yield between 12 and 30 grams per plant depending on strain. They range from a height of 14-30 inches tall, with one main cola. And it’s soooo much less time consuming to trim, so it works for me. 
I would definitely run with clones. But yes it can be done straight from seed.


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## coreywebster (Nov 1, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Not yet as my plants dont grow to that close as they seem to grow up rather than out without the supports.
> 
> When I get my individual cages we will see.
> 
> ...


Do you use co2 Sam?


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

coreywebster said:


> Do you use co2 Sam?


Yeah I have a co2 burner with ac units. It’s not completely dialled in yet. Only started it one harvest ago


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

oswizzle said:


> 10 clones per sqft ... genetics that grow single cola...minimal to zero branching... str8 from after being rooted ... 320 cuts per 4x8 tray.... crush yields and trim nothing but primo top cola nug...
> 
> not a easy task by any means...but its how to get 6-7lbs per 4x8



Love to see a photo, 10 per sqft sounds extremely crowded even for single colas


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## SamWE19 (Nov 1, 2019)

Matt1983NS said:


> 12/12 from seed won’t start flowering right away. They won’t start flowering until they’re mature.
> I run 12/12 from clones as soon as they root in 6 inch pots of coco coir. I hand water 56 plants at a time doing it this way.
> I have a disassembled steel garden shelf laying on top of two kiddie pools and it’s drain to waste. I put 6-18 plants in every two weeks for a staggered harvest but you could do one big crop. A problem I see with seeds is that even if they’re the same strain, the flowering times can be very different. If that’s not a problem for you then go for it. But optimizing you’re space leads to more harvests per yer. Waiting an extra two weeks for 6 plants to finish up would throw off my schedule.
> I do flower different strains at the same time but I know the flower time of each strain within a day or two. A small 2x4 veg/clone tent keeps me with enough room for mother’s and clones to keep perpetually harvesting.
> ...


I agree with that mate. The main reason I used seeds was I personally believed I was saving valuable space that I would need for mother/clone room


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## Jaybodankly (Nov 1, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Clone from clones, no degradation, moms kept for about a year each time.


The degradation that some people claim that a clone gets over time maybe a plant virus instead.


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## Kassiopeija (Nov 1, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Any ideas why they aren’t pulling directly to the light and seem to be turning upwards?


a plant can adjust its leaves towards the light, but its stem will always grow against gravity because in nature to do so will get you most height benefitting from increasing survivability. Gravitropism.


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## Renfro (Nov 1, 2019)

Jaybodankly said:


> The degradation that some people claim that a clone gets over time maybe a plant virus instead.


Or just a lazy grower


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## oswizzle (Nov 1, 2019)

Viruses... bringing in new clones from todays clone vendors is almost a guarantee to get infected with tainted stock


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## oill (Nov 2, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> If I use clones I’m only gonna have room
> For one strain. I would need one hell of a strain that people won’t get bored of and yields good


Dude... what are you going on about?

Enterprise? In your loft? Haha Haha

If you use cuttings you can ensure quality genotype. Otherwise your growing mediocre crap


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## Humanrob (Nov 2, 2019)

@SamWE19 , did you start a thread/journal for this grow? If so, I couldn't find it... maybe a link? I'd really like to see how that canopy fills out.


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## SamWE19 (Nov 2, 2019)

Humanrob said:


> @SamWE19 , did you start a thread/journal for this grow? If so, I couldn't find it... maybe a link? I'd really like to see how that canopy fills out.


Nah mate. They have immediately started growing entirely upwards into the plants above. I will start a proper journal when I get my next batch in with a proper net. 

I have come to the conclusion I need individual plant cages as a single net will limit my access. 

I’m not sure how I will attach a diy plant cage to those vertical pipes yet. If anyone has any ideas I’m all ears.

I’m considering small pvc pipe with a frame/net attached to each pipe.. just not sure how they will mount to the vertical pipes yet


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## Humanrob (Nov 2, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Nah mate. They have immediately started growing entirely upwards into the plants above. I will start a proper journal when I get my next batch in with a proper net.


Since they started growing into each other, what did you end out doing... scrap the grow and start over? pull every other row and do a half run? 

I look forward to seeing the next iteration. I'm always fascinated by interesting solutions to odd space challenges. I've actually read through all 9 pages of this, but I don't recall, does either the rack of plants or rack of lights currently move/roll? Throughout this grow, will your only direct access to the plants be walking between the lights and the pots?


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## SamWE19 (Nov 2, 2019)

Humanrob said:


> Since they started growing into each other, what did you end out doing... scrap the grow and start over? pull every other row and do a half run?
> 
> I look forward to seeing the next iteration. I'm always fascinated by interesting solutions to odd space challenges. I've actually read through all 9 pages of this, but I don't recall, does either the rack of plants or rack of lights currently move/roll? Throughout this grow, will your only direct access to the plants be walking between the lights and the pots?


They still get light and will still yield me 100+ oz so I’ve left them to their own for now. 

There is very limited access to the plants once they are growing. The reason I’ve decided I need individual plant supports is because I can access the plants from behind the plant wall. Reaching between the individual vertical pipes. This will allow me to foliar feed the under side of leaves and move stems into the supports. If I had a double row of net I wouldn’t get my hand through the first net to feed stems into the second net 

I can squeeze between lights and plants in an emergency but unlikely to ever need to.

I did build my light fixture on caster wheels but once it was built the whole thing weighs over 450kilos moving it ain’t gonna happen. 

It is extremely tight for movement but I manage. It’s the price to pay for higher productivity


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## Humanrob (Nov 2, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> They still get light and will still yield me 100+ oz so I’ve left them to their own for now.
> 
> There is very limited access to the plants once they are growing. The reason I’ve decided I need individual plant supports is because I can access the plants from behind the plant wall. Reaching between the individual vertical pipes. This will allow me to foliar feed the under side of leaves and move stems into the supports. If I had a double row of net I wouldn’t get my hand through the first net to feed stems into the second net
> 
> ...


Thanks for the reply. I guess we're all fighting these battles, just on different scales and with different variables and restrictions. Good luck to you, and I look forward to seeing how it goes down the road --


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## Xs121 (Nov 3, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Cloning is so simple and can be made so difficult.
> 
> I use a tray of rapid rooters with a dome. Keep just enough water in the bottom of the tray that the little slots stay full. The dome should have condensation on the inside and it will "rain" on the cuttings. Works great for me, it's rare if I have one that doesn't root. Try to keep the tray around 80 degrees, they root faster warm. Heat mats work but use an inkbird temperature controller. I just set mine to the side in my veg room so they get indirect light.


/\
"
"

This is the best method ever... 100% success, no brainer, no maintenance, no hassle system... cut and forget system. I used perlite though as my medium (it doesnt hold lots of moisture).

Clear container and clear lid
an object to hold the tray/pots above water


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## SamWE19 (Nov 4, 2019)

@Renfro hey bud if I plan on growing single colas to test my pheno and for future clones...

Obviously I’m vegging these seeds probably for 4 weeks before signs appear but how often should I remove branches and leaves if I’m going for single colas? Same for the clones I take if I veg the clones for 20 days to get a good amount of roots and they start growing do you continue to remove all side branches as they appear or let them grow and remove all but last node before flip?

Seedlings are getting a bit crowded already here


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## Renfro (Nov 4, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> @Renfro hey bud if I plan on growing single colas to test my pheno and for future clones...
> 
> Obviously I’m vegging these seeds probably for 4 weeks before signs appear but how often should I remove branches and leaves if I’m going for single colas? Same for the clones I take if I veg the clones for 20 days to get a good amount of roots and they start growing do you continue to remove all side branches as they appear or let them grow and remove all but last node before flip?
> 
> Seedlings are getting a bit crowded already here


They may just get too tall.

You need to get cuttings too. Obviously taking them from the tops means you won't get the single cola. So you need to veg them long enough to get the clones from the bottom and some phenos may hold up the works because they don't wanna branch. So they are gonna get too big and bushy IMO to run your single cola test properly. Plus root development won't be an accurate comparison to a future from clone run.

Monster cropping the clones isn't recommended because some strains just won't come back from it and you are trying to grow single colas too lol.

Ideally these from seed plants would be the ones kept as mothers, tops would be cut as clones and those would be flowered.

As far as pruning the bottoms when running a no veg SoG from clone I did that at 20 days after flip.


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## SamWE19 (Nov 4, 2019)

Renfro said:


> They may just get too tall.
> 
> You need to get cuttings too. Obviously taking them from the tops means you won't get the single cola. So you need to veg them long enough to get the clones from the bottom and some phenos may hold up the works because they don't wanna branch. So they are gonna get too big and bushy IMO to run your single cola test properly. Plus root development won't be an accurate comparison to a future from clone run.
> 
> ...


Unfortunately no room to keep 90 mothers.. 

My plan was to veg these long enough to get the first 2 nodes as clones prune the second clone of each constantly to keep it as small as possible. 

Flower out these seeds after removing all side branches? Or do this after flip like you. I would have thought side branches would be kriss crossing all over the place after 20 days of flip though but I guess that’s in the pheno. 

Flower out the unpruned clones as single colas pick the best and then keep the corresponding mother. 

Any reason why too tall is a problem? 
If I had single colas I could easily have a plant 3ft tall in my vertical system. 

A 90cm tall plant if grown at a 45 degree angle in some sort of trellis will only grow around 45 cm towards the light.


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## Renfro (Nov 4, 2019)

When I did no veg sog from clones they ended up 44 inches tall. So they can really stretch as single colas after flip. Leaving the lower branches longer slows that main node stretch a little.


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## Renfro (Nov 4, 2019)

Another option is tissue culture but I doubt you have space. That could keep your copies in stasis for a long time until you need them and then you can get a shit ton of plants.


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## diggs99 (Nov 4, 2019)

@ renfro

Bro, you need a " ask renfro" sticky thread

None better on this site or any other than you bud. Keep keeping on


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## SamWE19 (Nov 4, 2019)

Renfro said:


> When I did no veg sog from clones they ended up 44 inches tall. So they can really stretch as single colas after flip. Leaving the lower branches longer slows that main node stretch a little.


Jesus that’s a lot of stretch 

Yeah I looked into tissue culture a few years back. Maybe things have moved on but back then I wrote it off as too complicated at first glance. 

I’m gonna have to just rely on root pruning and constantly cutting back the clones with minimal light whilst I flower out another clone

Just had another idea. 

I’ll take two clones flower out one of the clones and when the other clone gets too big I’ll top it and keep cloning the top


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## Madriffer (Nov 4, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Appreciate your Input buddy but definitely not stubborn I just like to understand what makes someone’s input better. If someone says clones will be better, I’d like to hear experiences and how it’s better as I can’t change my system based on some opinion without understanding it myself
> 
> I’m considering the clone angle but atm I’m getting easy 2 oz per plant and each plant takes up 1 sqft of space.
> 
> I’m trying to find any evidence that clones can yield anywhere near as much as that with no luck so far. Max I’ve seen is 1 oz from rooted cut.


I do clone straight to 12/12 average 3/4 oz per plant (strain dependent). I do 4 plants per ft sq. So my yield is similar to better, with consistent quality, looks and yield. Also faster flip times. From cut to flower in under 3 weeks.


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## HashBucket (Nov 4, 2019)

I just joined this board.
I am an experienced grower.
Been growing for about 40 years now, inside and out.
Clone farmer for five years in N. Cali.
Now, growing flower.

Have two, 12 light rooms with 12 plants under each 1000 wt DE Gavita in one room.
The other room has 10 DE Gavita's and two Gavita pro 1700e LED's. I am testing the LED's to see if I can increase yield, or decrease cost at no decrease of yield. If it works out the way I think it will, I will switch to all LED at the next turn.
Due to commitments to my broker, and a standing order I have to stick to GG4. I am able to, at this point, get a little over 2 lbs per light.

I have found that it is much easier to test if you only make ONE change at a time. For example: if I was to put up LED's, and change to a different feed ... and the weight went up ... which one did it? The light, or the feed?

I haven't read this thread yet, but I sure will. I am always interested in learning something new, and I know that I am not smart enough to know it all.

Cheers,
The Bucket


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## oswizzle (Nov 4, 2019)

Bucket.. how long do u veg ur GG4 until u flower and what size pot from Veg to finish


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## HashBucket (Nov 4, 2019)

oswizzle said:


> Bucket.. how long do u veg ur GG4 until u flower and what size pot from Veg to finish


I run two rooms, so I have a room come down every month. 
Just finished a "turn" this weekend.

I take cuttings from mom (and teen clones) on the 20th of the each month. Those will go into quart size plastic pots (about 200 of em) on or about the 5th. They veg till the next turn in about 3 weeks and will be anywhere from 18 to 24 inches tall. I FIM them all to be about 16 inches, put them in 5 gal smart pots, and plunge into darkness for 24 hrs, then we're off to the races.

There is at any time, several generations in my operation. 

Unrooted clones, unruly teens, young ladies and mature ladies, and hanging and curing ladies. And every 30 days or so, they all shift one space up. 

Since we just did a flip, there is all five generations in there right now. Trimmers are scheduled to be here in about 5 days. I expect 25 to 30 lbs this harvest. 

It is a constant and very predictable dance.

But, to answer your question short version: I veg them for about three weeks in 5 x 5 pots, then into 5 gal smart pots for 60 days.

My wife and I are the only ones working this, with a Rolodex full of professional tradesmen: electricians, plumbers, diesel mechanics, and trimmers.
It is a full time job for two old folks; but, it keeps us moving, and alive.


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## oswizzle (Nov 4, 2019)

So they only spend 24 hours in the 5 gallons b4 u flip to flower? Whats your average yield per plant and how long are u flowering.. 8..9..10 weeks etc
Also do u defoliate at any stage


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## HashBucket (Nov 4, 2019)

oswizzle said:


> So they only spend 24 hours in the 5 gallons b4 u flip to flower? Whats your average yield per plant and how long are u flowering.. 8..9..10 weeks etc
> Also do u defoliate at any stage


Yes, I transplant and put in darkness for 24 hrs the first day.
Personally, I don't compute yield per plant because it is really not very telling. Each plant is different. One plant may yield more than the other (usually do) and since there is 144 of them in a room, I find averages to more useful.
I go by lbs per light. I want to see 2 lbs per light. Since there are 12 plants per light, that would be about 75 grams per plant? Or a little under 1 gram per watt. (I'm doing all this in my head, so, forgive rounding errors).

Each room goes down every 60 days, so I get a turn every month.


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## oswizzle (Nov 4, 2019)

Thanks for answering my questions bro


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## Madriffer (Nov 4, 2019)

Renfro said:


> The whole genetic degradation is a myth. You can clone from clones.


My thinking is, clone from clone at some point will succumb to environmental evolution. Will know one day. So far only 2 years on 1 strain. Want to see the differences in 5, 10...20


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## HashBucket (Nov 4, 2019)

oswizzle said:


> Also do u defoliate at any stage


Forgot to answer this one.
I do a SCROG, so at about three or four weeks I clear everything below the netting. Everything. 

If a branch doesn't reach the net ... SNIP. 
A leaf? SNIP. 
A bud site on the main branch? SNIP. 

I want to be able to see to the other side underneath. Keep air moving thru there, and wifey can see to reach to that back fourth plant to water and feed.

If you look under the skirts of my ladies, they are clean shaven.


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## HashBucket (Nov 4, 2019)

Madriffer said:


> My thinking is, clone from clone at some point will succumb to environmental evolution. Will know one day. So far only 2 years on 1 strain. Want to see the differences in 5, 10...20


Yea, I like to test common wisdom too ... 
I have been running the same GG4 genetics for four years. Clone directly from teenage clones, and a mom that I keep fresh by growing a clone to a mom. Four years - eight crops a year ... 32 generations.
I am just now beginning to see some nanners, and one of my runs had a couple of seeds in it. (Brokers freaked out and it cost me money). I did have some heat/humidity issues during a four day power outage so that may have been the cause of that - dunno for sure. 
I do know that GG4 is an unstable genetic, and does not respond well to stress. It will hermie at the drop of a hat.

But, I bought some GG4 seeds from a reputable dealer and started a new mom. Probly a good policy just for giggles.


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## Renfro (Nov 4, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> Yea, I like to test common wisdom too ...
> I have been running the same GG4 genetics for four years. Clone directly from teenage clones, and a mom that I keep fresh by growing a clone to a mom. Four years - eight crops a year ... 32 generations.
> I am just now beginning to see some nanners, and one of my runs had a couple of seeds in it. (Brokers freaked out and it cost me money). I did have some heat/humidity issues during a four day power outage so that may have been the cause of that - dunno for sure.
> I do know that GG4 is an unstable genetic, and does not respond well to stress. It will hermie at the drop of a hat.
> ...


I have the original #4 breeder cut and it's still going strong.


----------



## Madriffer (Nov 6, 2019)

I'm not suggesting degradation, yet rather adaptation to its environment. In other words, will my original #4 be identical to Renfros in 5 years? Or will they adapt to and respond differently in their respective environments.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 7, 2019)

Madriffer said:


> I'm not suggesting degradation, yet rather adaptation to its environment. In other words, will my original #4 be identical to Renfros in 5 years? Or will they adapt to and respond differently in their respective environments.


I’m growing royal gorilla now I’m hoping it’s as good as original GG and I can find a high thc high yielder amongst the beans. Can’t get a gg4 clone or decent seed where I am

Never considered adaption sounds possible but do plants adapt to their environment over time or are you talking about Darwinism which requires breeding?


----------



## bdt1981 (Nov 11, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I don’t have any problems or deficiencies growing with seeds. I wouldn’t want to switch to clones on the basis that they are “easier” to grow.. renting isn’t possible atm.
> 
> I’m interested in how clones will produce higher yield than seeds though based on profit per year not per harvest or plant in this instance though.


If ur doing a sog from seed it would be the first i saw. 


SamWE19 said:


> Interested in your opinions.
> 
> I have only limited space starting my business in a loft since it’s gone legal. Don’t have any more space.
> 
> ...


How many days until u harvest a plant 12/12 from seed? Just curious. I thought it would take at least 3 months. If thats the case u save at least 1 month per cycle. Growing 90 plants in a loft would seem uncomfortable. Unless its a big ass loft


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 11, 2019)

bdt1981 said:


> If ur doing a sog from seed it would be the first i saw.
> 
> How many days until u harvest a plant 12/12 from seed? Just curious. I thought it would take at least 3 months. If thats the case u save at least 1 month per cycle. Growing 90 plants in a loft would seem uncomfortable. Unless its a big ass loft


It’s a big loft but yeah it’s tight.

Going with clones soon. Going to take my first round of clones in a week or so then pick a keeper


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 11, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> It’s a big loft but yeah it’s tight.
> 
> Going with clones soon. Going to take my first round of clones in a week or so then pick a keeper


You know what though. I switched my nute line this grow round from start to finish and I can see a massive difference in the plants yeah I’ve only ever done seeds. But I had 100 skunk XL seeds last run and I’m doing 100 skunk XL seeds again this run and every single plant out of 100 looks way way better than before. 

I never bought much into nute hype before but obviously the ratios in ionic bloom were crap. Veg+bloom powdered base atm and I’ve never seen so many crystals on small buds... only about 2 weeks in bloom .


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 16, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> Yes, I transplant and put in darkness for 24 hrs the first day.
> Personally, I don't compute yield per plant because it is really not very telling. Each plant is different. One plant may yield more than the other (usually do) and since there is 144 of them in a room, I find averages to more useful.
> I go by lbs per light. I want to see 2 lbs per light. Since there are 12 plants per light, that would be about 75 grams per plant? Or a little under 1 gram per watt. (I'm doing all this in my head, so, forgive rounding errors).
> 
> Each room goes down every 60 days, so I get a turn every month.


PS:
Trimmers just left and I have a final count on the last turn.
12 lights --- 31.3 lbs
VERY nice harvest. 2.58 lbs per light.


----------



## rustyshaclkferd (Nov 16, 2019)

If you want or need help, commercial help, get off the forum... no offense to Rollitup but i doubt many people here operate industrial grows putting out a quality product at an afforbale price for their market and that are profitable and at lowest possibles cost...


If you want help DM me


----------



## diggs99 (Nov 16, 2019)

lol ya dont ask for help/advice on a public forum with many outstanding growers, instead pm some random dude on the same forum lol

Sorry but i found that funny lol


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 16, 2019)

diggs99 said:


> lol ya dont ask for help/advice on a public forum with many outstanding growers, instead pm some random dude on the same forum lol
> 
> Sorry but i found that funny lol


Makes sense ... why confuse yourself with a bunch of FACTS,


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Nah mate. They have immediately started growing entirely upwards into the plants above. I will start a proper journal when I get my next batch in with a proper net.
> 
> I have come to the conclusion I need individual plant cages as a single net will limit my access.
> 
> ...


Maybe a few pics to entertain us?


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I have to stick to GG4


Thats a killer cut. Did you get the clone only gg4 real deal? I love mine.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

diggs99 said:


> @ renfro
> 
> Bro, you need a " ask renfro" sticky thread
> 
> None better on this site or any other than you bud. Keep keeping on


Might be a bit much for me to handle honestly. Better to let everyone help out and I can chip in where needed.


----------



## diggs99 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Might be a bit much for me to handle honestly. Better to let everyone help out and I can chip in where needed.


I think you do a great job at helping wherever you can already, majority of what i know about growing is your fault lol 

Your an asset to a community like this. Thanks man


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

diggs99 said:


> Your an asset to a community like this. Thanks man


I try to help where I can. It does get old to be asked the same stuff, PM for example. I need to make a web page with a bunch of standard Q / A responses then just link those when people don't use the search. lol


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

What I really like to see is others that gained knowledge from me sharing it with others. That makes me feel good. I have seen you do that very thing @diggs99 good work.


----------



## diggs99 (Nov 17, 2019)

Im out here trying bro lol. Its been a very good year for learning , were heading in the right direction thanks to you and others like you.

you can only lead us to the water, we gotta drink that shit ourselves.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

diggs99 said:


> you can only lead us to the water, we gotta drink that shit ourselves.


Truth.


----------



## Kushash (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> I try to help where I can. It does get old to be asked the same stuff, PM for example. I need to make a web page with a bunch of standard Q / A responses then just link those when people don't use the search. lol


It does get old.
I try to help once in a while and after finishing with a newbie I might see another newbie with the same problem and find it difficult when the answer is the same as the last grower. I usually just sit it out till something new shows up.

Just a minor vent here lol. I have stopped asking the obvious questions like show a picture in real light or what are the details of your grow if there is little to no information. When I give advice and someone counters it with different advice I don't argue the point anymore and move on unless the op engages me or if it's from a member I know and respect.

Seems most suffer burn out at some point helping new growers.


----------



## hybridway2 (Nov 17, 2019)

Jaybodankly said:


> The degradation that some people claim that a clone gets over time maybe a plant virus instead.


Thats what happened to me.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Maybe a few pics to entertain us?


They are slightly growing towards lights now and doing quite well since I supercropped all the main stems. 

When this lot gets chopped I’ll be building a net 

One interesting thing about using seeds when you use 100+ per time is that you find some really weird things. I don’t know if it would be a pheno type or just a genetic mutation but look at the way this bud is growing on the second pic


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> They are slightly growing towards lights now and doing quite well since I supercropped all the main stems.
> 
> When this lot gets chopped I’ll be building a net
> 
> One interesting thing about using seeds when you use 100+ per time is that you find some really weird things. I don’t know if it would be a pheno type or just a genetic mutation but look at the way this bud is growing on the second pic


Yeah that odd plant has some fasciation IMO. You get the bad with the good. It's like when an NFL athlete with a cheerleader wife has a kid and it's born all messed up.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Yeah that odd plant has some fasciation IMO. You get the bad with the good. It's like when an NFL athlete with a cheerleader wife has a kid and it's born all messed up.


Is it potentially a good trait to try and breed into plants? Looks like you may get bigger buds if you have all your buds like this?


----------



## Thundercat (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Is it potentially a good trait to try and breed into plants? Looks like you may get bigger buds if you have all your buds like this?


When I’ve had buds grow like that(only been 2-3 times) they usually seem like lower potency.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Is it potentially a good trait to try and breed into plants? Looks like you may get bigger buds if you have all your buds like this?


no, higher leaf to calyx ratio, less potency, just bad.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> no, higher leaf to calyx ratio, less potency, just bad.


Ok only one cola has this trait on the plant in question. 3 other tops all seem normal so not much potency lost overall then. 

Should easily have another 100 oz from this run... hoping my clone selection with a net will increase the yield going forward... need to get those internodes closer together less wasted space


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

Need to get the plants closer from the looks of things, with colas that size you need 4 per sqft to really SoG.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

If you grow using hortitrellis with 6 inch holes you should have a plant for every hole with a single cola (for SoG).


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> If you grow using hortitrellis with 6 inch holes you should have a plant for every hole with a single cola (for SoG).


Those ones closest to the photo are quite small... obviously with being seed some of them are siZe of my fist and I’m a 6ft6 guy but yeah I’m aiming for 4 per sqft when I pick a clone


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

I was going to use 100mm wire mesh.. I’ll look into that horti trellis... I’ll need it to be 3m x 1.5m


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I was going to use 100mm wire mesh.. I’ll look into that horti trellis... I’ll need it to be 3m x 1.5m


FWIW I buy it in rolls that are either 4 foot or 6.5 foot wide x 3280 foot long.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Those ones closest to the photo are quite small... obviously with being seed some of them are siZe of my fist and I’m a 6ft6 guy but yeah I’m aiming for 4 per sqft when I pick a clone


I had tall plants that were like 40 - 44 inches tall with big 20 - 21 gram dry colas on the top, in 6 inch square pots and packed in the 4x4 tray in a 7x7 grid minus 1 for tray fittings. Flood and drain is the best for SoG.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> FWIW I buy it in rolls that are either 4 foot or 6.5 foot wide x 3280 foot long.


What’s your opinion on it? Is it a lot better than any fencing mesh? 

It doesn’t look like I have a local supplier. I’ll have to contact someone on eBay selling in California and see if they will ship the 5000 miles to me by the looks of it. Wondering if it’s worth that


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> FWIW I buy it in rolls that are either 4 foot or 6.5 foot wide x 3280 foot long.


I hate that stuff (horti trellis) and use it a lot
Gets all tangled up on your feet, arms ... can end up all tied up.
Keep waiting for wifey to get subdued by the stuff so I can have my way with her. Hasn't happened yet. 

I used to use hog-wire. Had frames made of PVC, and they'd just set up over the plants. Easy to deal with, the plants and flowers didn't grow up all in it.


----------



## trapdevil (Nov 17, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I hate that stuff (horti trellis) and use it a lot
> Gets all tangled up on your feet, arms ... can end up all tied up.
> Keep waiting for wifey to get subdued by the stuff so I can have my way with her. Hasn't happened yet.
> 
> I used to use hog-wire. Had frames made of PVC, and they'd just set up over the plants. Easy to deal with, the plants and flowers didn't grow up all in it.


with what was posted in that other thread, be careful saying that
@BigHornBuds lol


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> Keep waiting for wifey to get subdued by the stuff so I can have my way with her. Hasn't happened yet.


Sounds like she has a better chance of getting you all tied up in submission. lol

I never have a problem with the stuff. I have to put up a lot each run because I just cut it now at harvest.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Sounds like she has a better chance of getting you all tied up in submission. lol
> 
> I never have a problem with the stuff. I have to put up a lot each run because I just cut it now at harvest.


Thanks for posting the name of that stuff, managed to find a long roll of pvc plastic mesh stuff with 6 inch holes for pennies... in comparison to the mesh fencing I was going to use by searching for that horti trellis.

Bad picture but does this stuff look similar to horti trellis? The holes don’t seem to be perfect squares but I guess that doesn’t matter too much


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Thanks for posting the name of that stuff, managed to find a long roll of pvc plastic mesh stuff with 6 inch holes for pennies... in comparison to the mesh fencing I was going to use by searching for that horti trellis.
> 
> Bad picture but does this stuff look similar to horti trellis? The holes don’t seem to be perfect squares but I guess that doesn’t matter too much


No clue about that stuff but I do know to avoid the stuff thats made of string, it's very stretchy and it leaves fibers in your weed.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> No clue about that stuff but I do know to avoid the stuff thats made of string, it's very stretchy and it leaves fibers in your weed.


When you say you were getting 20g per plant with 4 per sqft was that with co2? And yield completely maxed out or did you still have room for improvement? 3 oz per sqft is like 3lb per light if using hps


----------



## Renfro (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> When you say you were getting 20g per plant with 4 per sqft was that with co2? And yield completely maxed out or did you still have room for improvement? 3 oz per sqft is like 3lb per light if using hps


Knowing what I know now definitely coulda done more. 48 plants x 20.5 = 984

For one thing I coulda made a cover for the tray, used net pots and put the other plants in but I was using 6 inch square pots with hydroton and that plus the tray fit limited me, I did use true inside 4x8 trays.

I did have Co2. I knew a lot about growing but nothing like what I know now with many more years under my belt and another state with a different climate.


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 17, 2019)

Renfro said:


> and another state with a different climate.


It is amazing how much of a difference that makes.

Where I live is many micro-climates. Can drive for a half hour and end up in a completely different weather. 
And, that makes a big difference ... even indoors


----------



## SoMe_EfFin_MasS_HoLe (Nov 17, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> Will that really yield more though? I would need to figure out how to fit enough mother plants for 90 plants every 5 weeks or so and a clone room that is light proof in a tiny amount of space that’s left in the loft


Shelving works great.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 21, 2019)

If a seed grows side branches almost vertically and produces a massive stick of bud will a clone continue the same angle of side branch or is it likely to be different?

Got a couple of seeds starting the flowering stretch now that are doing this and I think may end up being a bloody good sog strain for bulky colas


----------



## dakindgrind (Nov 21, 2019)

@hybridway2


hybridway2 said:


> Its not that bad. I come from below in pull allot through, making sure not to pop off buds. Sometimes cut from top then bottom.
> 120 site Sleazy-Cloner @60 cuts per clone will allow bigger/taller clones & spit out a tray every 10 days. Can re-use water in it for quite awhile using ClearRez once every 10-14 days. Just simple Clone-X








Make $2200 worth of "Clear Rez" for $4 !!!


That is correct. Same EXACT ingredient as EZ Clone Clear Rez that sells for $20 a QT. Get your self a 1 lb bag of HTH Pool shock non PH buffered available online and most hardware stores (bought mine from Ace). Mix 1 GRAM (450 in the bag) per gallon of solution. Will make the SAME EXACT...



www.rollitup.org





Used to use clear rez but have been using HTC shock 'n swim for years, 1 g Ca(CL2) : 1gal H2O for same liquid app rate as CR.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> If a seed grows side branches almost vertically and produces a massive stick of bud will a clone continue the same angle of side branch or is it likely to be different?
> 
> Got a couple of seeds starting the flowering stretch now that are doing this and I think may end up being a bloody good sog strain for bulky colas


Pics?

Strains that grow more straight up end up blocking themselves and the nodes that aren't the tallest suffer from lack of light. Those strains need to be spread out with a trellis so each branch gets it's own area and taller branches can be made to grow laterally instead of upwards to produce an even canopy. Personally I want each branch / cola to have an area thats about 5 x 5 to 6 x 6 inches.


----------



## SamWE19 (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Pics?
> 
> Strains that grow more straight up end up blocking themselves and the nodes that aren't the tallest suffer from lack of light. Those strains need to be spread out with a trellis so each branch gets it's own area and taller branches can be made to grow laterally instead of upwards to produce an even canopy. Personally I want each branch / cola to have an area thats about 5 x 5 to 6 x 6 inches.


Defoliated today to give them some extra light


----------



## doublejj (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> FWIW I buy it in rolls that are either 4 foot or 6.5 foot wide x 3280 foot long.


we use 3 or more layers in our greenhouses.....I buy a roll each year


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

rustyshaclkferd said:


> If you want or need help, commercial help, get off the forum... no offense to Rollitup but i doubt many people here operate industrial grows putting out a quality product at an afforbale price for their market and that are profitable and at lowest possibles cost...
> 
> 
> If you want help DM me


I just saw this ... and wish I'd seen it sooner.
You are right.
There are no professional, commercial growers here ... well, maybe a couple, but mostly kids growing a couple or ten plants in their bathtub ....

I came here looking for pro's. 
Besides your offer to DM (generous of you, and thanks) do you know of any forums where people talk more about our craft than politics, religion or sex. 
Where?


----------



## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> There are no professional, commercial growers here


Really?


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Really?


Well, I did say a couple, and I did have you in mind when I said that ...


----------



## thenasty1 (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> There are no professional, commercial growers here


lol
oh wait, wait. i see youve been here a whole 3 weeks? nevermind. surely you must know all there is to know about this forum and its members by this point. carry on


----------



## doublejj (Nov 21, 2019)

just us 'hobby' growers....


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

doublejj said:


> just us 'hobby' growers....
> View attachment 4424807


Yea, like I said ... I said with the 'exception of a couple' ....
And, I 'liked' your grow pix in the thread earlier ... very nice. Bet it smells good.

I posted a garden pix too, at the request of a poster.
Didn't get constructive criticism. 
Didn't get kudo's.
Didn't get shit except: My pix was photoshopped on a cho-mo's play card.

Nice.
Nice friendly place.
That was my first day here.

Yea, lots of 'professional' growers here.
Ya'll just got your own private 'cool table' going on.
Just like high school.
And, I'm the new guy ... and definitely not cool enough. 

Go to Google and enter "rollitup" in the search.
I should have done that before I signed up here.
Not very good things said about you guys.
Especially that Unkle Buck guy ... is he an owner of this site?


----------



## doublejj (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> Yea, like I said ... I said with the 'exception of a couple' ....
> And, I 'liked' your grow pix in the thread earlier ... very nice. Bet it smells good.
> 
> I posted a garden pix too, at the request of a poster.
> ...


stay off the politics page and you'll be alright. You came here looking for pro's. There are a few that post here. Stick around you may find what your looking for. Best of luck, and welcome to RIU.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> Yea, lots of 'professional' growers here.
> Ya'll just got your own private 'cool table' going on.
> Just like high school.
> And, I'm the new guy ... and definitely not cool enough.


Well this behavior isn't going to help get an invite to the "cool table".


----------



## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

And we know there is a place that could be called the cool table right @diggs99 ? I know you got the invite.


----------



## doublejj (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> And we know there is a place that could be called the cool table right @diggs99 ? I know you got the invite.


----------



## diggs99 (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> And we know there is a place that could be called the cool table right @diggs99 ? I know you got the invite.


Yessir


----------



## diggs99 (Nov 21, 2019)

doublejj said:


> View attachment 4424822


Also a pretty cool table DJJ


----------



## rustyshaclkferd (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I just saw this ... and wish I'd seen it sooner.
> You are right.
> There are no professional, commercial growers here ... well, maybe a couple, but mostly kids growing a couple or ten plants in their bathtub ....
> 
> ...


Icmag is pretty nice.


----------



## rustyshaclkferd (Nov 21, 2019)

doublejj said:


> just us 'hobby' growers....
> View attachment 4424807


 Looking good


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> Well this behavior isn't going to help get an invite to the "cool table".


I have NEVER been welcome at the cool table. I'm not cool.
I will NOT kiss ass to be 'popular'. 
And its way, way too late for me to change my 'behavior' to suit anyone sitting at that table.
Fuck em.


----------



## doublejj (Nov 21, 2019)

diggs99 said:


> Also a pretty cool table DJJ


----------



## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

But yeah, the way to get the invite is to act cool. Don't act like a little bitch. Help others on the site. Demonstrate your willingness to share knowledge.


----------



## thenasty1 (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I posted a garden pix too, at the request of a poster.
> Didn't get constructive criticism.
> Didn't get kudo's.


you did though. you posted a couple pics, and you told people you chop all your plants early and give zero fucks about product quality as long as you get paid. some folks illustrated to you why they disagreed with your approach. some even told you "hey nice work". your problem is not that you are new, or that you arent cool or whatever else. its that you came here with a huge ego, talking like youre hot shit trying to impress strangers on the internet. one would think that a professional such as yourself would have learned by now what a hindrance that attitude can be


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

thenasty1 said:


> you did though. you posted a couple pics, and you told people you chop all your plants early and give zero fucks about product quality as long as you get paid. some folks illustrated to you why they disagreed with your approach. some even told you "hey nice work". your problem is not that you are new, or that you arent cool or whatever else. its that you came here with a huge ego, talking like youre hot shit trying to impress strangers on the internet. one would think that a professional such as yourself would have learned by now what a hindrance that attitude can be


Yes. I was honest.
I told you ... I don't 'act'.
I told you the truth: that I worked for a company that pays me well to DO THE JOB THEY WANT ME TO DO. Then I described the job that I am being PAID TO DO. 
I have a boss.
I know that the people who sit at the cool table don't. They too good for that. Free thinkers that they are and all ... LoL. 

But, in MY life, if someone is paying me good $ to chop early ... shit, I chop em early. 
I reported FACTS. And that got 'the community's' panties all knotted up.

You wanna be lied to? I could do that. 
No, actually ... I can't.


----------



## thenasty1 (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I know that the people who sit at the cool table don't. They too good for that. Free thinkers that they are and all ... LoL.


who the hell are you even referring to here?


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

thenasty1 said:


> who the hell are you even referring to here?


you don't know who you're sitting with?


----------



## Kushash (Nov 21, 2019)

Y


HashBucket said:


> Yes. I was honest.
> I told you ... I don't 'act'.
> I told you the truth: that I worked for a company that pays me well to DO THE JOB THEY WANT ME TO DO. Then I described the job that I am being PAID TO DO.
> I have a boss.
> ...


Maybe you should try linked in or contacting the companies directly and speaking to the master grower.
You are expecting to much from an open forum, and to expect anything different on an open forum is on you.
Your coming across butt hurt and arrogant and trust me, there are growers on this site that


are just as good as any pro on a 100,000 sq ft grow facility, you just don't have the time invested to know who to talk too.
You probably think the pros in the big grows are putting out the best quality compared to the little guys on RIU but they aren't.
Good Luck!



HashBucket said:


> you don't know who you're sitting with?


Tell us who we are sitting with?


----------



## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

Kushash said:


> Maybe you should try linked in or contacting the companies directly and speaking to the master grower.
> You are expecting to much from an open forum, and to expect anything different on an open forum is on you.


Yes, of course it's my fault. Can't be anything else.
I expected a small percentage of the people here to be growers.
My fault.



Kushash said:


> there are growers on this site that are just as good as any pro on a 100,000 sq ft grow facility, you just don't have the time invested to know who to talk too.


Yea, I prolly tried to go too fast with these first graders. Scared em. Made em wet their nappies.



Kushash said:


> You probably think the pros in the big grows are putting out the best quality compared to the little guys on RIU but they aren't.


Yea, but ... I don't. Quality is not what the big guys produce. They produce MONEY. They make profit. And since I was hoping to meet PROFESSIONAL (look up the definition) growers here I was hoping to discuss that. NOT be told that I am an asshole and a child molester. I just wasn't expecting that. And if calling out some pimple faced kid sitting in his dads den posting crap is acting all 'butt hurt', then fuck you too.



Kushash said:


> Tell us who we are sitting with?


No.


----------



## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I think it's YOU dropping to your knees to suck the dicks of EVERYBODY at the cool table so you can be there too.


This rant is acting like a little bitch. You don't have to act, just be you and you get what you get. This won't get you invited to anyplace cool.


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## HashBucket (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> This won't get you invited to anyplace cool.


I never have been, my whole life ... and I'm old.
I'm not 'cool'.
I rely on finding common ground, intelligent conversation and debate.
There are others like me.



Renfro said:


> This rant is acting like a little bitch.


I acted different the first three weeks I was here. For sure. This IS my first 'rant'. How am I doing? How do ya like me _now_? Better I bet.



Renfro said:


> You don't have to act, just be you and you get what you get.


Yer late to the party. I been here, being me, and I see what I got.


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## Bud2theBone (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> I did no veg SoG bigtime for 7 years in multiple locations at once. I ran 48 plants per 4x4 area (1kW SE HPS). 7x7 grid - 1 for tray fittings. Consistently pulled a little over 2 pounds per light, averaged about 20 - 21 grams per plant. I would lollipop them at day 20 to make the focus all their energy on the top. Made for super fast trimming and all nice nugs. Strain is KEY! You want a phenotype thats suited to your setup.
> 
> Cheat a little by rooting the clones for 20 days in a tray of rapid rooters, they should have roots that are 12 - 14 inches long and white. Then transplant and flip. I used 6 inch square pots with hydroton.


What strain did you do if you don’t mind me asking


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## Aeroknow (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I never have been, my whole life ... and I'm old.
> I'm not 'cool'.
> I rely on finding common ground, intelligent conversation and debate.
> There are others like me.
> ...


Who the fuck still grows only GG4? And who the fuck chops it so early?

Oh that’s right, it’s you! The triggered snowflake who is talking all kinds of shit. In this thread and in politics, and then complains about the politics forum. Jesus fucking christ. You trying your hardest to make the rest of us here in the North State look like idiots like yourself?


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## oswizzle (Nov 21, 2019)

Im so cool... i shit Ice Cubes


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## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

Bud2theBone said:


> What strain did you do if you don’t mind me asking


It was Shiva from Nirvana back in like 2003 when I got the beans. I would pay a solid number for a legit pack of those beans or a cut but it would have to be pure Shiva and I can tell by the smoke and plant structure. Shiva Skunk and Shiva Shanti have both been tried and they aren't it. I made millions off that cut in a little over 7 years of growing it. Pure indica, strongest I ever smoked. I never built a tolerance to it, nobody did. A nice one hitter on the bong and you were fucked up, every time. Didn't matter if it was the first time you smoked that day or the 10th. Practically owned KU with that strain back then at 35 a gram, no breaks.


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## PadawanWarrior (Nov 21, 2019)

doublejj said:


> View attachment 4424826
> 
> View attachment 4424828


Shit that's not a table anymore, it's a forest. I think i see a good place to set up a tent. I could go camping, lol.


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## Aeroknow (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> It was Shiva from Nirvana back in like 2003 when I got the beans. I would pay a solid number for a legit pack of those beans or a cut but it would have to be pure Shiva and I can tell by the smoke and plant structure. Shiva Skunk and Shiva Shanti have both been tried and they aren't it. I made millions off that cut in a little over 7 years of growing it. Pure indica, strongest I ever smoked. I never built a tolerance to it, nobody did. A nice one hitter on the bong and you were fucked up, every time. Didn't matter if it was the first time you smoked that day or the 10th. Practically owned KU with that strain back then at 35 a gram, no breaks.


My gem from Nirvana back around then was their Ice. I fucking destroyed it with that one. The pic in the big book of buds looked like shit but the description of big yield sold me on it. Straight fuel. Like gasoline fuel, but in a good way. Very frosty, very easy to trim big solid colas. Made ALLOT of money with that one


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## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

Aeroknow said:


> My gem from Nirvana back around then was their Ice. I fucking destroyed it with that one. The pic in the big book of buds looked like shit but the description of big yield sold me on it. Straight fuel. Like gasoline fuel, but in a good way. Very frosty, very easy to trim big solid colas. Made ALLOT of money with that one


Yeah nirvana had an immature pic but the flowering time and yields plus the indica part sold me, stuff finished hard in 60 days. This is the pic they had on their site lol


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## Renfro (Nov 21, 2019)

HashBucket said:


> I never have been, my whole life ... and I'm old.
> I'm not 'cool'.
> I rely on finding common ground, intelligent conversation and debate.
> There are others like me.
> ...


New members generally get the hard treatment for a while and the more it bothers them the worse it gets. If they take it in stride and razz back in good nature to show that they have some thick skin then people back off and welcome them into the fold. It's not about acting like someone else or kissing ass but rather showing that you have a pair.


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## Bud2theBone (Nov 21, 2019)

Renfro said:


> It was Shiva from Nirvana back in like 2003 when I got the beans. I would pay a solid number for a legit pack of those beans or a cut but it would have to be pure Shiva and I can tell by the smoke and plant structure. Shiva Skunk and Shiva Shanti have both been tried and they aren't it. I made millions off that cut in a little over 7 years of growing it. Pure indica, strongest I ever smoked. I never built a tolerance to it, nobody did. A nice one hitter on the bong and you were fucked up, every time. Didn't matter if it was the first time you smoked that day or the 10th. Practically owned KU with that strain back then at 35 a gram, no breaks.


I guess that’s what we’re all after here lol a potent strain that grows crazy!! I’d like to know more about your set up and if you don’t mind. As I said I’m doing SOG and you’re method sounds like what I want to follow. I want this to be consistent


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## PadawanWarrior (Nov 22, 2019)

Renfro said:


> New members generally get the hard treatment for a while and the more it bothers them the worse it gets. If they take it in stride and razz back in good nature to show that they have some thick skin then people back off and welcome them into the fold. It's not about acting like someone else or kissing ass but rather showing that you have a pair.


And it helps to show some respect to the ones that know their shit, or even the ones who are just trying to help (some members excluded, haha).


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## BigHornBuds (Nov 22, 2019)

trapdevil said:


> with what was posted in that other thread, be careful saying that
> @BigHornBuds lol


I don’t know why you tagged me .
Hashbucket is a pedo , who thinks he’s a big deal (very laughable) “I grow GG4 in 6 weeks 
Or I don’t know how many days are in a weeks” no wait , it’s 8 weeks , let me brake it down for you , ba ba ba , 10 day here’s 20 days here , ya 9 weeks like I said ! 
I can see more intelligence in my dog. 


This thread “commercial” grow .
More like half ass hobby , that the guy sells grams out of the same house . 
I don’t consider that a commercial grow.


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## Renfro (Nov 22, 2019)

BigHornBuds said:


> This thread “commercial” grow .
> More like half ass hobby , that the guy sells grams out of the same house .
> I don’t consider that a commercial grow.


True commercial growers definitely don't deal out the grow house. Quickest way to get robbed.


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## trapdevil (Nov 22, 2019)

BigHornBuds said:


> I don’t know why you tagged me .
> Hashbucket is a pedo , who thinks he’s a big deal (very laughable) “I grow GG4 in 6 weeks
> Or I don’t know how many days are in a weeks” no wait , it’s 8 weeks , let me brake it down for you , ba ba ba , 10 day here’s 20 days here , ya 9 weeks like I said !
> I can see more intelligence in my dog.
> ...


i tagged you cause you are the one who posted that he was.. and he was joking about wrapping his “wife” up in it


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## SamWE19 (Nov 22, 2019)

A commercial business is whatever you make of it. If it’s profitable it’s a commercial business. I make easily 100+k a year doing this. It’s hard work, working in a tight space but I only make this much in a house by using the space very efficiently.

Obviously I don’t make millions I am just one man, but I am happy and it pays the bills and I live comfortably


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 22, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> A commercial business is whatever you make of it. If it’s profitable it’s a commercial business. I make easily 100+k a year doing this. It’s hard work, working in a tight space but I only make this much in a house by using the space very efficiently.
> 
> Obviously I don’t make millions I am just one man, but I am happy and it pays the bills and I live comfortably


I agree with this.
My hobby might not pull in very much profit (12 - 14 k a year) but considering the cost of outlay and ongoing expenses its a nice, albeit small earner from a very small grow area.
Its a tiny indoor hobby farm.


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## BigHornBuds (Nov 22, 2019)

trapdevil said:


> i tagged you cause you are the one who posted that he was.. and he was joking about wrapping his “wife” up in it


I’m picking up what your putting down, but
That wasn’t me, I’m no good with computers 
I was just the 1st to quote it .


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## a mongo frog (Nov 22, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> I make easily 100+k a year doing this. It’s hard work


Whats hard about it? Super easy.


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## BigHornBuds (Nov 22, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> A commercial business is whatever you make of it. If it’s profitable it’s a commercial business. I make easily 100+k a year doing this. It’s hard work, working in a tight space but I only make this much in a house by using the space very efficiently.
> 
> Obviously I don’t make millions I am just one man, but I am happy and it pays the bills and I live comfortably


I’m sorry I phrased it the way I did, I didn’t mean to put you down. Feel free to think of it anyway you’d like, but it’s more like a profitable hobby. I know how much work it is, looking after a small crop by yourself. 
Commercial, I think of a complete space just for growing , not a spare room or attic , garage etc . 
That’s about 40p in my arms .


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## SamWE19 (Nov 22, 2019)

a mongo frog said:


> Whats hard about it? Super easy.


You misread my post. It’s hard work crawling about in tight spaces, squeezing into access to check on plants etc. It’s easy to grow yes


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## arcalion (Nov 22, 2019)

has anyone ever tried to graft two nice cannabis plants together for fun and then flower it out?


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## Thundercat (Nov 22, 2019)

arcalion said:


> has anyone ever tried to graft two nice cannabis plants together for fun and then flower it out?


Its been done it works .


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## arcalion (Nov 22, 2019)

Thundercat said:


> Its been done it works .


it would be so cool to see lol, donno just saw an article on a tree with 40 different fruits, now thats production loool


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## Lucky Luke (Nov 22, 2019)

arcalion said:


> it would be so cool to see lol, donno just saw an article on a tree with 40 different fruits, now thats production loool


you can buy a Grafting tool to make things easier if ur getting into it. Pretty inexpensive tool.




__





GRAFTING TOOL


GRAFTING TOOL - Grafting has now become much easier with this handy & easy-to-use grafting tool. Made from high-carbon steel, this tool is used to make identical cuts in both parent tree & scion which ensures rapid healing & improved success rates. Suitable for u




www.thelostseed.com.au


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## Thundercat (Nov 23, 2019)

arcalion said:


> it would be so cool to see lol, donno just saw an article on a tree with 40 different fruits, now thats production loool


Yeah it’s a cool concept, I’ve always wanted to do it but never really had the space to spare.


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## delacruz (Nov 23, 2019)

You might try staggering your grow and plant a quarter of your room every 2 weeks. That way you don't have a crazy big harvest to deal with in such a small space. You' would have a more manageable harvest/trim/dry though you'd still need a dark area to dry and a place to start your seeds under a different light cycle than your flowering plants.


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## SamWE19 (Nov 26, 2019)

I’m really impatient. 

I’m loving the structure/look of this pheno already and today the tiniest bit of flower has emerged... it looks jet black/purple.

Anyone able to see from this photo if I’m likely to get a coloured bud or not? Never had a purple bud before so don’t know what they start off looking like

Cheers


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## Renfro (Nov 26, 2019)

arcalion said:


> has anyone ever tried to graft two nice cannabis plants together for fun and then flower it out?


What would be useful is to make a multi-mother with branches from your best cuts. Then one plant in your plant count can preserve all those genetics for cloning. Of course then all them eggs are in one basket.


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## SamWE19 (Nov 26, 2019)

Renfro said:


> What would be useful is to make a multi-mother with branches from your best cuts. Then one plant in your plant count can preserve all those genetics for cloning. Of course then all them eggs are in one basket.


When your prosecutors talk plant count, what do they define as plant count.

If you have 4 stems coming out of the same pot, it could be argued that it is one plant? 

After all you could have one plant that you mainlined and then when you repotted you bury the stem to the mainline, would they say that’s now 8 plants even though it’s an 8 plant mainline?


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## Renfro (Nov 26, 2019)

SamWE19 said:


> When your prosecutors talk plant count, what do they define as plant count.
> 
> If you have 4 stems coming out of the same pot, it could be argued that it is one plant?


One root system. If they saw four stems coming out of one pot I am sure they would try and make the 4 plants charge stick and make you prove it was otherwise.


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## Renfro (Nov 27, 2019)

Honestly they would probably uproot the plant in an illegal state and that would tell them how many plants it is.


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