# Jesus Myth & Why It Endures



## Dalek Supreme (Apr 27, 2016)

There's basically two ideas of thought on an historical Jesus. One being the Christian view in that the New Testament is an historical document free of error. The other is mainstream secular scholars saying the NT has kernals of truth, but who Jesus was (wandering Rabbi, or militant leader, and everything in between) is up for debate.

There's a third camp which is Jesus is entirely a myth. The "Mythicist" position is fringe, and racked with bad bad scholarship. Keep in mind that up till the 1970's the idea that the Biblical patriarchs being mythical was considered fringe, but today most scholars do not believe Moses, or Abraham was historical.

I have put together two sections (* & **). The historical (*) section shows how scant the evidence is for an historical Jesus, and that the evidence under critical analyses points to myth. The science (**) section shows the neurology, and psychology on why people cling onto irrational beliefs, and habits that's next to impossible to reason them out of.

There are many Pagan parallels that are misleading, but some are religious syncretism of Hellenistic Jews, and what the later Catholic Church integrated. Keep in mind that Christianity went through a long and strong filter, but some elements of it's origin made it through. 

The first three links are for those that have an aversion to watching videos especially from Youtube. I do highly recommend at least watching the first 8 minutes of the fourth link which is a lecture by Dr. Richard Carrier. I also recommend watching the short clip by Dr. Robert Sapolsky which starts off the science section.

For those few that find this information interesting, and compelling? Please pass it on to like minds...Thank you

* Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

Jesus Myth Part II - Follow-up, Commentary, and Expansion

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_followup.htm

The Gospel of Mark as Reaction and Allegory

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/gospel_mark.htm

Dr. Richard Carrier: The Mythical Jesus






Mythmaking in the NT






Why the Gospels Are Myth






Acts as Historical Fiction






Dr. Robert M Price: The Jesus Question






New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

New Testament Interpolations & Forgeries

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2011/06/pauline-interpolations.html?m=1

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Legends2

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

The James that Paul met was the "Brother of the Lord" in a fictive kinship of all Baptized Christians. Paul was also differentiating James from a racist James that did not behave in a spiritual family.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=291478

Ancient Greek pottery ( 4th century BCE) depicting women performing a passion play for Dionysus (God of Wine). They are in ritual "Omophagia" consuming the flesh (pulp/skins), and blood (wine) of the God depicted on a Tropaion (Trophy). Starting off the annual festival priests put casks of water in the God's temple which turn into Wine the next day. 

http://lost-history.com/images/vase1.jpg

Bible Buried Secrets

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=qalTJzk4kO0

Who Was Moses (starts @ 10:20)

https://youtu.be/IybD2xzkhtc

**Praise Jesus "Serotonin" Christ & The Holy "Dopamine" Ghost!

Neurochemical mechanisms EVOLVED for the drive to gather resources for the perpetuation of the species that does not take account of our PRESENT COGNITION. The root force behind ADDICTIONS like GAMBLING & MISTAKEN as a DIVINE PRESENCE (imaginary friend) by some. We are PATTERN SEEKERS (to see that Lion in the tall Grass & discern which Berries made us sick), yearn for "WHAT FEELS GOOD", and when "MAYBE" is entered into the equation it has dynamic effects neurologicaly (our pitfall). Drugs like Cocaine, or Heroine release these REWARD neurochemicals, but thoughts like winning money, or John 3:16 is just as addictive. The release of the Holy "Dopamine" Ghost strengthens neural pathways which leads to CONFIRMATION & COGNITIVE BIASES (ever try to reason someone out of a bad habit?).

Google "Dopamine Reward System", "Dopamine in Relation to Addiction", "Dopamine Creativity", "Dopamine Release Sleep Deprivation", and "Dopamine Hypothesis".

Dr. Robert Sapolsky: Dopamine Jackpot (Science of Pleasure)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=axrywDP9Ii0

Dopamine's Role in Reward

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kVoYpiiy7jg

SciShow: Chemistry of Addiction

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ukFjH9odsXw

SciShow: Why Am I Hallucinating

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0sB9sTz_gyU

Sleep Paralysis & Phantom Intruders

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=u8vIuHvl-Pc

Critical Thinking, Confirmation Bias, & You

https://youtu.be/CjWOP1aLEIs

SciShow: Science of Lying

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MX3Hu8loXTE

Russian Fox Experiments

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0jFGNQScRNY

Dr. Michael Shermer: The Believing Brain

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YqAwfv3HYGo

Bonus:

Law of Truly Large Numbers

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_truly_large_numbers


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## Nutes and Nugs (Apr 27, 2016)

Jesus loves you.


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## schnooby (Apr 28, 2016)

looks like alot of good stuff to wade through and i applaud your efforts......will have a look when i have some time......


just curious.....do you apply the same rigorous standards to you own beliefs and feelings about all of lifes experiences? if so, how does it feel to know that even your most hallowed and precious personal experiences can supposedly be explained by nothing more than chemicals in the brain and pattern seeking etc? does it not reduce your ability to enjoy the wonders and joys of life even a little bit?


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Apr 29, 2016)

The majority of people are just so dumb and blind following sickness..


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## Dalek Supreme (Apr 30, 2016)

schnooby said:


> looks like alot of good stuff to wade through and i applaud your efforts......will have a look when i have some time......
> 
> 
> just curious.....do you apply the same rigorous standards to you own beliefs and feelings about all of lifes experiences? if so, how does it feel to know that even your most hallowed and precious personal experiences can supposedly be explained by nothing more than chemicals in the brain and pattern seeking etc? does it not reduce your ability to enjoy the wonders and joys of life even a little bit?


Cool, and awesome question.

When I was a kid I believed in Lake Monsters. Then over time I saw not only the evidence did not fit, but most importantly "I wanted to believe" which was holding me back from seeing truth.

The Universe is mysterious as it is without things that are untrue. I rather know than believe.

Keep in mind that one can be too skeptical, but do not open your mind so much that it thinks like it fell out.


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## Dalek Supreme (Apr 30, 2016)

Nutes and Nugs said:


> Jesus loves you.


Thanks to Jesus's magic Blood, I can clean myself of an ancient curse brought on by a mud man, and a rib woman.


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## schnooby (Apr 30, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Cool, and awesome question.
> 
> When I was a kid I believed in Lake Monsters. Then over time I saw not only the evidence did not fit, but most importantly "I wanted to believe" which was holding me back from seeing truth.
> 
> ...




good points. 

question. what is evidence? isnt the standard of what is considered evidence different for different people?


wanting to believe. Yes this is a potent influence on how one interprete evidence. And if that persons standards for evidence are low, then it becomes easier to make the so called evidence fit into their construction of reality.

i think i have seen many people in my life engage in this approach to making things fit, and not just spiritual people.

there are alot of good and important questions we need to ask ourselves in the search of truth. 

First and perhaps most importantly, is there an ultimate truth or reality that can even be known or understood and is it within our ability to understand it, or understand enough of it to be able to say "now i know what is real".

Secondly, if there is a reality or truth that can be known, are we willing to submit to that reality even if it goes against the grain of who we are and what we want?

there are of course other good questions too, but those are just a couple that i often consider.


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## New Age United (Apr 30, 2016)

schnooby said:


> good points.
> 
> question. what is evidence? isnt the standard of what is considered evidence different for different people?
> 
> ...


Yes there is an ultimate reality that can only be grasped when you stop thinking and become directly aware of it, time is an illusion but the Earth is very Real, that is a good pointer to the truth, and yes there are many things that are true about this reality both objective and subjective truths which can only be grasped and understood by the mind. 

Yes I myself have surrendered to reality, the truth, what is. You may find that your ego does not want to surrender and maybe even you often find yourself resisting the truth and this is causing unnecessary suffering for you. There is a way out of suffering but there are 2 things you must accept and surrender to first, 1. The truth ei my loved one has just died 2. That you are in fact suffering. Facing the truth is always more empowering then resisting it.


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## bird mcbride (Apr 30, 2016)

I have learned that nothing lasts forever...except death.


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## Tektek (Apr 30, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Cool, and awesome question.
> 
> When I was a kid I believed in Lake Monsters. Then over time I saw not only the evidence did not fit, but most importantly "I wanted to believe" which was holding me back from seeing truth.
> 
> ...


A duality. Consciousness is chemical, subjective experience is our reality.
CSNY rocks my neurons, tweaks my hormones, awesome.

Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young Ohio 1970 Kent State University _link works?_


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## Tektek (Apr 30, 2016)

my 2 cents
Religion is a tool the ruling class uses to control the ignorant masses, always has been. 
Ug, ug ug ug. sun not come back unless you give me 3 bananas.
BE AFRAID of the unknown.

Any weird/spiritual/ Don Juan stuff is human potential. Go for it.
rock my neurons,  Crosby, Stills, Nash & Young - Almost Cut My Hair _link work?_


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

bird mcbride said:


> I have learned that nothing lasts forever...except death.


All things come and go but the Light remains Eternal, that is another good pointer to the truth. Words are only pointers to the truth, you are the Light, Awareness, Unwavering, not fleeting, you will last just as long as death, Eternity, there is no time, it literally does not exist.


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## Dalek Supreme (May 1, 2016)

schnooby said:


> good points.
> 
> question. what is evidence? isnt the standard of what is considered evidence different for different people?
> 
> ...


Evidence: For me there's personal evidence, but I do not go around stating it as fact. I cannot prove which I cannot provide evidence of, meanwhile this is not a barrier to many people. That's not how science works which is a good thing.

Deeper reality: Yes. I cannot wrap my head around "Quantum Entanglement" (Einstein's spooky action from a distance). There's one fact no matter what and that is we are all evolved mutated crazy Apes. Next time someone says they are "spiritual", offer to remove their Frontal Lobe, and see how spiritual they are afterwards.

I hope people take the time to check out either section, or both instead of making this thread about philosophy.


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## Dalek Supreme (May 1, 2016)

Here is just one example how the Gospel of Mark is spiritual allegory, and not a recording of history. Keep in mind the events leading up to, and the execution it's self goes against Judaic law. Also there is no such thing in the historical record of a prisoner exchange ritual especially for an insurrectionist such as Barabbas.

Looking at Leviticus we see the "ScapeGoat" ritual using two Goats. One Goat is set free into the wilderness. The other Goat is offered up as a Sin offering.

Leviticus 16:7-10

"7 And he shall take the two goats, and present them before the Lord at the door of the tabernacle of the congregation.

8 And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat.

9 And Aaron shall bring the goat upon which the Lord's lot fell, and offer him for a sin offering.

10 But the goat, on which the lot fell to be the scapegoat, shall be presented alive before the Lord, to make an atonement with him, and to let him go for a scapegoat into the wilderness."

Jesus after facing Pilate is offered by him to be released. Instead of Jesus (Son of God) being released, Barabbas (Son the Father) is released, and Jesus is sacrificed.

Mark 15:6-15

"6 Now at that feast he released unto them one prisoner, whomsoever they desired.

7 And there was one named Barabbas, which lay bound with them that had made insurrection with him, who had committed murder in the insurrection.

8 And the multitude crying aloud began to desire him to do as he had ever done unto them.

9 But Pilate answered them, saying, Will ye that I release unto you the King of the Jews?

10 For he knew that the chief priests had delivered him for envy.

11 But the chief priests moved the people, that he should rather release Barabbas unto them.

12 And Pilate answered and said again unto them, What will ye then that I shall do unto him whom ye call the King of the Jews?

13 And they cried out again, Crucify him.

14 Then Pilate said unto them, Why, what evil hath he done? And they cried out the more exceedingly, Crucify him.

15 And so Pilate, willing to content the people, released Barabbas unto them, and delivered Jesus, when he had scourged him, to be crucified."

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Barabbas


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Evidence: For me there's personal evidence, but I do not go around stating it as fact. I cannot prove which I cannot provide evidence of, meanwhile this is not a barrier to many people. That's not how science works which is a good thing.
> 
> Deeper reality: Yes. I cannot wrap my head around "Quantum Entanglement" (Einstein's spooky action from a distance). There's one fact no matter what and that is we are all evolved mutated crazy Apes. Next time someone says they are "spiritual", offer to remove their Frontal Lobe, and see how spiritual they are afterwards.
> 
> I hope people take the time to check out either section, or both instead of making this thread about philosophy.


I respect that bro, I'll try as hard as possible to keep my own philosophy out of it and stick to basic facts. I'm very interested in the thread and when I get some time I will go through the material and respond if I have an opinion.


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Evidence: For me there's personal evidence, but I do not go around stating it as fact. I cannot prove which I cannot provide evidence of, meanwhile this is not a barrier to many people. That's not how science works which is a good thing.
> 
> Deeper reality: Yes. I cannot wrap my head around "Quantum Entanglement" (Einstein's spooky action from a distance). There's one fact no matter what and that is we are all evolved mutated crazy Apes. Next time someone says they are "spiritual", offer to remove their Frontal Lobe, and see how spiritual they are afterwards.
> 
> I hope people take the time to check out either section, or both instead of making this thread about philosophy.


And I am one of those spiritual people, if you were to remove my frontal lobe you would be removing my ego, if you could save me the time I would probably go for it lol!!!!!


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## LordRalh3 (May 1, 2016)

honestly i think it's said best in the good book (not the bible but Terry Goodkind's Faith of the Fallen) 

this: what exists exists; what is is. From this irreducible, bedrock principle, all knowledge is built. This is the foundation from which life is embraced. Reason is a choice. Wishes and whims are not facts, nor are they a means to discovering them. Reason is our only way of grasping reality–it is our basic tool of survival. We are free to evade the effort of thinking, to reject reason, but we are not free to avoid the penalty of the abyss we refuse to see.



then the second bit 

Faith and feelings are the warm marrow of evil. Unlike reason, faith and feelings provide no boundary to limit any delusion, any whim. They are virulent poison, giving the numbing illusion of moral sanction to every depravity ever hatched.

Faith and feelings are the darkness to reason’s light.

Reason is the very substance of truth itself. The glory that is life is wholly embraced through reason. In rejecting it, in rejecting reason, one embraces death.




People are stupid; given proper motivation, almost anyone will believe almost anything. Because people are stupid, they will believe a lie because they want to believe it's true, or because they are afraid it might be true. People’s heads are full of knowledge, facts, and beliefs, and most of it is false, yet they think it all true. People are stupid; they can only rarely tell the difference between a lie and the truth, and yet they are confident they can, and so are all the easier to fool.


terry goodkind


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Here is just one example how the Gospel of Mark is spiritual allegory, and not a recording of history. Keep in mind the events leading up to, and the execution it's self goes against Judaic law. Also there is no such thing in the historical record of a prisoner exchange ritual especially for an insurrectionist such as Barabbas.
> 
> Looking at Leviticus we see the "ScapeGoat" ritual using two Goats. One Goat is set free into the wilderness. The other Goat is offered up as a Sin offering.
> 
> ...


Yes the pilate washed his hands and sealed his fate - Rolling Stones. The Jews may have possibly turned Jesus in but ultimately it is the Romans that crucified him, imagine that, the Roman Emperor Constantine has the bible compiled and in it the Jews are blamed for the death of Christ and the Holy Roman Empire is formed the very ones that crucified Jesus they just told the masses a different story and the easily persuaded masses followed suit without question. 

"You were given a sword and the heart of a lion; I was given words to persuade the minds of men, we all play with the gifts the gods have given us" the illiad

The old and new testament are full of sorcery, but much wisdom and truth lie therein.


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

Thank you @sunni or @GreatwhiteNorth I thought I was being reasonable.


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## sunni (May 1, 2016)

New Age United said:


> Thank you @sunni or @GreatwhiteNorth I thought I was being reasonable.


I haven't a clue what you are speaking of


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

sunni said:


> I haven't a clue what you are speaking of


Someone switched this thread from tech and science to ss&p and obviously for good reason.


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Thanks to Jesus's magic Blood, I can clean myself of an ancient curse brought on by a mud man, and a rib woman.


You are ignorant, you are not actually paying attention to the words you are instantly applying your own judgment, which first you must understand is subjective, you must find the objective in these words, the authors original intent, this requires a keen intuition.

"All man came from the dust of the ground by way of the tiny germ cell uniting" the Quran. It is an effort by early man's intuition to discern the truth, perhaps women came from man, a reasonable assumption considering the knowledge of that time.


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## New Age United (May 1, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> There's basically two ideas of thought on an historical Jesus. One being the Christian view in that the New Testament is an historical document free of error. The other is mainstream secular scholars saying the NT has kernals of truth, but who Jesus was (wandering Rabbi, or militant leader, and everything in between) is up for debate.
> 
> There's a third camp which is Jesus is entirely a myth. The "Mythicist" position is fringe, and racked with bad bad scholarship. Keep in mind that up till the 1970's the idea that the Biblical patriarchs being mythical was considered fringe, but today most scholars do not believe Moses, or Abraham was historical.
> 
> ...


I K ow very well the effects of dopamine on the brain and mind. I have spoken in great detail with doctors about the effects of dopamine and it's purpose in memory and pleasure functions. However dopamine is not responsible in any way for Conciousness, which is permanent and not fleeting.


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## Dalek Supreme (May 2, 2016)

New Age United said:


> You are ignorant, you are not actually paying attention to the words you are instantly applying your own judgment, which first you must understand is subjective, you must find the objective in these words, the authors original intent, this requires a keen intuition.
> 
> "All man came from the dust of the ground by way of the tiny germ cell uniting" the Quran. It is an effort by early man's intuition to discern the truth, perhaps women came from man, a reasonable assumption considering the knowledge of that time.


I see that you are influenced by the Holy Dopamine Ghost.

The New Testament is not history. It's a pocket Old Testament where the Jesus character trumps the OT patriarchs. Here's an example of the unknown author of Mark using OT narratives to create his Jesus story.


Mark 9:2-4

"2 And after *six days* Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an *high mountain* apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.

3 And his raiment became *shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.*

4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus."

Exodus 24:12

"12 And the Lord said unto Moses, Come up to me into the *mount,* and be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments which I have written; that thou mayest teach them."

Exodus 24:15-18

"15 And Moses went up into the mount, and a cloud covered the mount.

16 And the glory of the Lord abode upon mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it *six days:* and the seventh day he called unto Moses out of the midst of the cloud."

17 And the sight of the glory of the Lord was like *devouring fire* on the top of the mount in the eyes of the children of Israel.

18 And Moses went into the midst of the cloud, and gat him up into the mount: and Moses was in the mount forty days and forty nights."

Exodus 34:29

"29 And it came to pass, when Moses came down from mount Sinai with the two tables of testimony in Moses' hand, when he came down from the mount, that Moses wist not that the skin of his face *shone* while he talked with him."

Malachi 3:2

"2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a *refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:*"

Mark 9:9

"9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should *tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.*"

Daniel 12:4

"4 But thou, O Daniel, *shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end:* many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."


As for the Quran, it's just a merchant warlord and his group reinventing stories circulating at the time.


Genesis 1:16 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

"16 And *God maketh the two great luminaries*, the great luminary for the rule of the day, and the small luminary -- and the stars -- for the rule of the night;"

Quran 71:16 ( Mohsin Khan translation)

"And has *made the moon a light therein*, and made the sun a lamp?"

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=71&amp;verse=16

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Science/moonlight_wc.html

Quran 18:86 (Mohsin Khan translation)

"Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it *setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water*. And he found near it a people. We (Allah) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness.""

http://corpus.quran.com/translation.jsp?chapter=18&amp;verse=86

Hadith Book 25, Number 3991: Narrated Abu Dharr:

"I was sitting behind the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) who was riding a donkey while the sun was setting. He asked: Do you know where it sets? I replied: Allah and his Apostle know best. He said: *It sets in a spring of warm water* (hamiyah)."

http://www.iium.edu.my/deed/hadith/abudawood/025_sat.html

Quran 20:53 (Mohsin Khan translation)

"*Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out)*; and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation."

Quran 43:10 (Mohsin Khan translation)

"*Who has made for you the earth like a bed*, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way,"

Quran 78:6 (Mohsin Khan translation)

"*Have We not made the earth as a bed*,"

Quran 18:47 (Mohsin Khan translation)

"*And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain*, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind."

Allah's Missile Defense System (Shooting Stars repel Demons/Jinn that try to rise up and listen to Allah's celestial council of Angels)


Quran 72:8-9

And we have sought [to reach] the heaven but found it filled with powerful guards and burning flames.

9)And we used to sit therein in positions for hearing, but whoever listens now will find a burning flame lying in wait for him.

Quran 37:6-10

6)Indeed, We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment of stars

7)And as protection against every rebellious devil

[So] they may not listen to the exalted assembly [of angels] and are pelted from every side,

9)Repelled; and for them is a constant punishment,

10)Except one who snatches [some words] by theft, but they are pursued by a burning flame, piercing [in brightness].

Quran 67:5

5)And We have certainly beautified the nearest heaven with stars and have made [from] them what is thrown at the devils and have prepared for them the punishment of the Blaze.

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 432:

Narrated 'Aisha:

I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "The angels descend, the clouds and mention this or that matter decreed in the Heaven. The devils listen stealthily to such a matter, come down to inspire the soothsayers with it, and the latter would add to it one-hundred lies of their own."

http://www.islam4theworld.net/hadith/bukhari/51to55.htm
http://www.islam4theworld.net/hadith/bukhari/51to55.htm
Volume 9, Book 93, Number 650:

Narrated 'Aisha:

Some people asked the Prophet regarding the soothsayers. He said, "They are nothing." They said, "O Allah's Apostle! Some of their talks come true." The Prophet said, "That word which happens to be true is what a Jinn snatches away by stealth (from the Heaven) and pours it in the ears of his friend (the foreteller) with a sound like the cackling of a hen. The soothsayers then mix with that word, one hundred lies."

https://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/093-sbt.php


http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=263536&#entry5102494


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## Dalek Supreme (May 2, 2016)

New Age United said:


> I K ow very well the effects of dopamine on the brain and mind. I have spoken in great detail with doctors about the effects of dopamine and it's purpose in memory and pleasure functions. However dopamine is not responsible in any way for Conciousness, which is permanent and not fleeting.


The Holy Dopamine Ghost can make sense out of complete nonsense (just Google "Dopamine Creativity").

Neil deGrasse Tyson on religious people 






Studies show that religious beliefs tend to drop off for those of acedemia, but not entirely. The thing is being smart does not make one less prone to addiction. Doctors have been known to abuse the very meds they prescribe.

Apparently a PhD is not rewarding enough? I do not expect Sam Harris to come out with this connection. It's not politically correct, and he would rather reason those out of nonsense that can be. Others will do the mental dodge to maintain that REWARD.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost has millions upon millions of years under it's belt.

"Neuropharmacological studies generally point to dopaminergic activation as the leading neurochemical feature associated with religious activity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16439158


Dr. Nora Volkow: How Drug Addiction Hijacks the Brain


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## New Age United (May 2, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> I see that you are influenced by the Holy Dopamine Ghost.
> 
> The New Testament is not history. It's a pocket Old Testament where the Jesus character trumps the OT patriarchs. Here's an example of the unknown author of Mark using OT narratives to create his Jesus story.
> 
> ...


Yes actually had a few too many drinks last night lol!!! Sorry for getting in your face thanks for all the material I will go over it some time today.


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## New Age United (May 2, 2016)

Can you please define "holy dopamine ghost" ?


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## eye exaggerate (May 3, 2016)

"Is it proper to use science to evaluate a position that makes no scientific claim?"


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## LordRalh3 (May 4, 2016)

define a position thats a non scientific claim


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## Dalek Supreme (May 4, 2016)

New Age United said:


> Yes actually had a few too many drinks last night lol!!! Sorry for getting in your face thanks for all the material I will go over it some time today.


That's ok. I'm used to it.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost is defined at the start of the science section.


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## Dalek Supreme (May 4, 2016)

eye exaggerate said:


> "Is it proper to use science to evaluate a position that makes no scientific claim?"


I'm addressing an historical claim, and then use science to show why some people refuse reason when it comes to certain beliefs.

Neil deGrasse Tyson on religious people






Studies show that religious beliefs tend to drop off for those of acedemia, but not entirely. The thing is being smart does not make one less prone to addiction. Doctors have been known to abuse the very meds they prescribe for instance.

Apparently a PhD is not rewarding enough. I do not expect Sam Harris to come out with this connection. It's not politically correct, and he would rather reason those out of nonsense that can be. Others will do the mental dodge to maintain thoughts for that REWARD.

The Holy Dopamine Ghost has millions upon millions of years under it's belt. It's evolution, not evidence of the divine.

"Neuropharmacological studies generally point to dopaminergic activation as the leading neurochemical feature associated with religious activity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16439158

Dr. Nora Volkow: How Drug Addiction Hijacks the Brain






"Most of the genes found in the fruit fly—more accurately referred to as the vinegar fly—are found in humans as well, including those neurons that produce brain chemicals like dopamine and serotonin, which have been implicated in psychiatric disorders."

http://m.caltech.edu/news/caltech-scientists-find-emotion-behaviors-regulated-dopamine-fruit-flies-1580

The Brain Is In Continual Conflict






Flashing lights and music turn rats into problem gamblers

http://news.ubc.ca/2016/01/20/flashing-lights-and-music-turn-rats-into-problem-gamblers/


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## eye exaggerate (May 5, 2016)

@Dalek Supreme Tyson's hero is Bruno, a man who's _vision_ of heliocentricity changed the way we look at the solar system / universe. Yes, I said vision.


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## Tektek (May 5, 2016)

"Neuropharmacological studies generally point to dopaminergic activation as the leading neurochemical feature associated with religious activity."

OH ya. 
Ug ug ug ug ug ug ug. Drums, dance around fire, demon masks, we get dopamine high.


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## eye exaggerate (May 5, 2016)

LordRalh3 said:


> define a position thats a non scientific claim


An artistic one.


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## Dalek Supreme (May 7, 2016)

eye exaggerate said:


> @Dalek Supreme Tyson's hero is Bruno, a man who's _vision_ of heliocentricity changed the way we look at the solar system / universe. Yes, I said vision.


Wrong. Tyson's #1 bad ass hero is Sir Isaac Newton. The guy who believed Lead can be transmuted to Gold. Also an Hair sample of his was tested to have high levels of Arsonic due to his Alchemy experiments on himself.


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## eye exaggerate (May 7, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Wrong. Tyson's #1 bad ass hero is Sir Isaac Newton. The guy who believed Lead can be transmuted to Gold. Also an Hair sample of his was tested to have high levels of Arsonic due to his Alchemy experiments on himself.


Ah, I see, so, his #2 bad ass hero changed the way we view the universe - with a vision.


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## reddan1981 (May 28, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Wrong. Tyson's #1 bad ass hero is Sir Isaac Newton. The guy who believed Lead can be transmuted to Gold. Also an Hair sample of his was tested to have high levels of Arsonic due to his Alchemy experiments on himself.


 I took a keen interest in researching Isaac Newton once and it led me down a path which now makes me question everything we know about (mainstream) science lol


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## schnooby (May 28, 2016)

there are alot of reasons why trying to explain faith or religion as a self reinforcing reward based activity in neurochemical terms is just fatally flawed. 

First, reasoning backwards that the good feeling produced by an activity somehow negates the rational basis for the activity,or explains it away, is a philosophical slippery slope descending into a blackhole. You could similarly frame every human behavior in terms of the biochemical reward system that accompanies the activity, and THAT is madness.


Second, even if you could effectively argue that people engage in religious behaviors for the feel good pay off that doesnt address the likelihood that many religious, spiritual people have varying levels of these chemicals or maybe even none at all in the case of dysfunction. How do those biological variables impqct the thesis that religion or spirituality only exist because of feel good chemicals in the brain.


I see it as a desperate attempt at explaining things away without realizing that its a snake eating itself, as all human behaviors could be similarly reduced to nothing more than animalistic basic primal urges which are encourages by neurochemical orgasms.


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## ThickStemz (May 29, 2016)

If jesus didn't exist then how did st Paul stop roaming about killing early Christians, go blind then regain his sight the moment a priest of THE LORD put his hands on him?

If there was no Jesus then how come the muslims even believe He was real? They're all going to hell because they have been mislead by the adversary that Jesus didn't get it right. If He didn't exist, then the muslims wouldn't think he was wrong.

If there was no Jesus, then why did Philo of Alexandria mention Him, as the first born Son of God

Plus, you got Josephus saying he did 10 thousand miracles. Tacitus recorded his deeds.

Friend, Satan has you by the balls. I hope you get free.


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## R1b3n4 (May 29, 2016)




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## ThickStemz (May 29, 2016)

R1b3n4 said:


> View attachment 3694276


No, you're blaspheming.


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## R1b3n4 (May 29, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> No, you're blaspheming.


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## ThickStemz (May 29, 2016)

R1b3n4 said:


> View attachment 3694277


Don't care if you keep on. Just putting a proper lable on it.


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 1, 2016)

schnooby said:


> there are alot of reasons why trying to explain faith or religion as a self reinforcing reward based activity in neurochemical terms is just fatally flawed.
> 
> First, reasoning backwards that the good feeling produced by an activity somehow negates the rational basis for the activity,or explains it away, is a philosophical slippery slope descending into a blackhole. You could similarly frame every human behavior in terms of the biochemical reward system that accompanies the activity, and THAT is madness.
> 
> ...


Fact: People get addicted to drugs.

Fact: These same drugs chemically release Dopamine which get people high.

Fact: People get thought addictions like gambling, and porn which they release Dopamine themselves.

Fact: You have to disprove above with evidence, and not conjecture.


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 1, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> If jesus didn't exist then how did st Paul stop roaming about killing early Christians, go blind then regain his sight the moment a priest of THE LORD put his hands on him?
> 
> If there was no Jesus then how come the muslims even believe He was real? They're all going to hell because they have been mislead by the adversary that Jesus didn't get it right. If He didn't exist, then the muslims wouldn't think he was wrong.
> 
> ...


There's two Pauls. The nonpseudographical Epistles Paul, and the fictional Book of Acts Paul.

Paul did persecute the early Church, but he was not blinded, and healed. 

Muslims believe what ever the Quran says. The Quran says that if it has one error, then the whole thing is in error. Muslims never see an error.

Philo mentions God's firstborn the archangel Logos. Philo uses the same keywords Paul uses to describe Jesus. There's scriptual evidence in Paul that shows his Jesus was celestial, and never was on Earth.

There are problems with both Josephus, and Tacitus. Even if these passages are genuine, they only repeat what Christians believed.

Friend, you are under a delusion which an ancient system of the Brain is short circuiting the modern thinking part. All you have to do is look, but you won't thanks to the Holy Dopamine Ghost.

Jesus Myth - The Case Against Historical Christ

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_history.htm

Jesus Myth Part II - Follow-up, Commentary, and Expansion

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/jesus_myth_followup.htm

The Gospel of Mark as Reaction and Allegory

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/gospel_mark.htm

Dr. Richard Carrier: The Mythical Jesus






Mythmaking in the NT






Why the Gospels Are Myth






Acts as Historical Fiction






Dr. Robert M Price: The Jesus Question






New Testament Narrative as Old Testament Midrash

http://www.robertmprice.mindvendor.com/art_midrash1.htm

New Testament Interpolations & Forgeries

http://richardcarrier.blogspot.com/2011/06/pauline-interpolations.html?m=1

http://www.errancywiki.com/index.php?title=Legends2

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/rp1cor15.html

The James that Paul met was the "Brother of the Lord" in a fictive kinship of all Baptized Christians. Paul was also differentiating James from a racist James that did not behave in a spiritual family.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=291478


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## ThickStemz (Jun 1, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> There's two Pauls. The nonpseudographical Epistles Paul, and the fictional Book of Acts Paul.
> 
> Paul did persecute the early Church, but he was not blinded, and healed.
> 
> ...


None of that can stand up to the eternal WORD, written down in the King James Bible. 

The Bible explains all that. And it predicts people like you and that really smart teenager in your videos will come and say foolish things in the end times. 

Repent. Time is near.


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## Immortalpeace (Jun 1, 2016)

...wtf


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## GroErr (Jun 1, 2016)

I'm very spiritual and believe there's something that binds us and all life on this planet. But believing in a book (or books since there are many bibles/religions) that was written so long ago when literacy rates didn't even register on a scale, is the most preposterous thing I've ever heard. Cannot believe there are still followers of any religion when books/bibles were written at a time where handfuls of people could read and write. Do you think the writings could be skewed towards whatever beliefs and stories the writers wanted you to hear? lol

Think about all the religions and "bibles" written so long ago, in different parts of the world, but all essentially pointing to a simple explanation of some "god". They were written to appease and control the masses, nothing else.

Not bashing the bible(s) specifically, I don't pay much attention to anything written prior to the 1600's when literacy rates at least stared to register. Hell, even today we have to sift through crap, written by people who come up with findings/data skewed towards supporting their view and usually fueled by money.


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 1, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> None of that can stand up to the eternal WORD, written down in the King James Bible.
> 
> The Bible explains all that. And it predicts people like you and that really smart teenager in your videos will come and say foolish things in the end times.
> 
> Repent. Time is near.


The Holy Dopamine Ghost:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=294330


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## ThickStemz (Jun 1, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> The Holy Dopamine Ghost:
> 
> http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=294330


I was hoping you would recognize I was just trying to troll you a little. The Philo of Alexandria line was supposed to be my giveaway since its actually one of Carrier's pieces of evidence that there is no evidence for historicity. 

Philo would have written about Jesus if he knew about Jesus. He lived in a time and place where he would have known it Jesus was anything like the biblical story. However he stays silent about any such man. Yet he does mention a celestial being with some connection to the Jesus myth. 

I admire Carrier. I watched a debate with him against two theists, another man in Carrier's corner. Carrier dominated them. It was hysterical


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 2, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> I was hoping you would recognize I was just trying to troll you a little. The Philo of Alexandria line was supposed to be my giveaway since its actually one of Carrier's pieces of evidence that there is no evidence for historicity.
> 
> Philo would have written about Jesus if he knew about Jesus. He lived in a time and place where he would have known it Jesus was anything like the biblical story. However he stays silent about any such man. Yet he does mention a celestial being with some connection to the Jesus myth.
> 
> I admire Carrier. I watched a debate with him against two theists, another man in Carrier's corner. Carrier dominated them. It was hysterical


Ha! Ha! It crossed my mind you were pulling Poe's Law, but it was hard to tell. I did do the double take when you mentioned Philo, and figured maybe a new misconception was being circulated. I actually had a bigger response, but the page got ate up. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law

Yes, I read Carrier's "Proving History", and "On The History". He shows that Jesus having existed as being very improbable. The early Xtians were looking at the OT as if it had secret revelations hidden in the verses.


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## ThickStemz (Jun 2, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Ha! Ha! It crossed my mind you were pulling Poe's Law, but it was hard to tell. I did do the double take when you mentioned Philo, and figured maybe a new misconception was being circulated. I actually had a bigger response, but the page got ate up.
> 
> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe's_law
> 
> Yes, I read Carrier's "Proving History", and "On The History". He shows that Jesus having existed as being very improbable. The early Xtians were looking at the OT as if it had secret revelations hidden in the verses.


I have not read his books, but i have done the next best thing, listened to hours upon hours of him at work. 

It wasn't Poe's law, I was trying to be sneaky subtle.


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## schnooby (Jun 4, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Fact: People get addicted to drugs.
> 
> Fact: These same drugs chemically release Dopamine which get people high.
> 
> ...


i want to first say that i respect your attempt to understand the arguably very complex issue of human neurochemistry in how it relates to human history and evolution.

But....you tried to make a couple points that i think deserve some friendly critique.


First you try to compare dopamine activity in the body as the result of exogenous substances to the natural, evolutionary dopamine activity which takes place as i pointed out as a result of all kinds of human activities, including listening to music or looking at art etc. I believe this is what is called a false comparison. This is just my assessment of your comparison of course, but i believe trying to say exogenous drug induced dopamine activity is the same as dopamine activity caused by normal human activities is erroneous and not based on a in depth study and treatment of all the mechanisms involved in hitting your receptors with powerful drugs which are known to cause unnatural spikes in neurotransmitter activity and throws the entire system into imbalance. Natural stjmulation on the other hand insures the body remains in homeostasis which is a preferrable state.

The second point you argued was that it was up to ME to prove what YOU asserted. This is not logical. You started off by alleging that the reason humans are religious is because they reap a neurochemical reward for their religious or spiritual activites. If you propose a thesis, which you did, the onus is actually on YOU to prove your point with facts, data, and well reasoned logical arguments. This is something i personally dont believe you did to the level you are caoable of and also which the theme deserves.

I would like to reiterate my earlier point that having a neurochemical reward system for human behavior and activities is in NO WAY an explanation for why they engage in it or a rationale for why those activities exist from an evolutionary standpoint. For example, it is known that during and after childbirth mothers are inundated with all kinds of hormones and chemicals which reward the mother for engaging in bonding and nuturing behavior. So evolutionarilly speaking does the mother only nurture their young because of the chemical payoff, the HIGH as it were? Or does the Action, which is initiated on a rational and necessary basis for the survival of the young come FIRST and then get reinforced via the chemical reward?

The issue is really very similar to the question of which came first, the chicken or the egg.


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## abalonehx (Jun 4, 2016)

Nutes and Nugs said:


> Jesus loves you.


...everyone else thinks youre an asshole. ha



bird mcbride said:


> I have learned that nothing lasts forever...except death.


.... even cold November raain

Why does the myth endure?
Fear of death, indoctrination in youth, stubborn tradition, scapegoating blame, guilt, solice, easy answers to the unknown and unknowable...


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## R1b3n4 (Jun 4, 2016)




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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 6, 2016)

schnooby said:


> i want to first say that i respect your attempt to understand the arguably very complex issue of human neurochemistry in how it relates to human history and evolution.
> [*]
> 
> [*]But....you tried to make a couple points that i think deserve some friendly critique.
> ...





Firstly let's look at gambling. Gambling is addictive. Gamblers perceive an award while avoiding the reality of the odds for that reward. This shows that thought is addictive wether it's true, or not.




*Are You Hardwired for Gambling? - Jonah Lehrer*









A Fruit Fly (which has the same reward system as us) does not have the cognitive abilities we do. Eating & reproducing is just turning on the right switches for them, otherwise they would have died out. 


The first organism that gave it's offspring an edge over other species probably did not involve cognitive thought. The species that reproduced in fewer numbers had to nurture it's young. The Wolf Spider that carries it's young on it's back does so because a neurochemical is present. Without this neurochemical it would eat it's young. This did not happen overnight, but over time where the spider that did not eat it's young won out.


The egg always came first.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 7, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> None of that can stand up to the eternal WORD, written down in the King James Bible.
> 
> The Bible explains all that. And it predicts people like you and that really smart teenager in your videos will come and say foolish things in the end times.
> 
> Repent. Time is near.


interesting.
so the word of "god" was written by man, no?
and not even the same one, but many different ones?
and also interesting you chose the king james version, considering the bible has been re-written, re-translated, and changed more than any book ever.
not to mention that most of the stories in the bible are older stories found in Egyptian parables.
but I suppose I should start repenting, maybe if I pray hard enough and promise to hate gays, participate in genocide, and rape women, maaaybe I can get eternal happiness..


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 7, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> No, you're blaspheming.


no this is blasphemy.


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## R1b3n4 (Jun 7, 2016)




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## ThickStemz (Jun 7, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> interesting.
> so the word of "god" was written by man, no?
> and not even the same one, but many different ones?
> and also interesting you chose the king james version, considering the bible has been re-written, re-translated, and changed more than any book ever.
> ...


Since king James was a divine right monarch God came and inspired him to rewrite the bible and get it back to its original form in a modern language set to be the most dominant for the next few hundred years.


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## ThickStemz (Jun 7, 2016)

R1b3n4 said:


> View attachment 3702322


They didn't walk. They flew. This was before flightless birds evolved, idgit


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## R1b3n4 (Jun 8, 2016)

Of course it was.......


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

ThickStemz said:


> They didn't walk. They flew. This was before flightless birds evolved, idgit



but the dinosaurs were before then, did they fit on the ark too? What about the ten or so different types of prehistoric man? No?

not to mention how it's physically impossible for the PLANET to gain water in order to flood anything, there is a finite amount of water on the planet, it doesn't eb and flow like that.
but I suppose that was divine intervention, and then the water magically disappeared after.
totally makes sense to me.
I sure hope after we melt the poles that maybe those magical drains will relieve some of our water, so, well, you know, those people in Italy, florida, and the multiple Bahamas/carribean islands won't be under water anymore. but hey, maybe mankind is giving ourselves it's own flood?
between that and the global warming..overpopulation and mother nature IS going to find a way to eliminate or drasticly reduce our numbers, just wait and see, it'll happen in your kids' lifetime, i'd guess.


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## schnooby (Jun 8, 2016)

R1b3n4 said:


> Of course it was.......
> 
> View attachment 3702751



can i also laugh at the elementary school level composition, grammar and spelling of the meme?


not to mention like most memes its retardedly over simplified and ignores some obvious caveats to the flood story those who believe the story are well aware of.

try again.


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## schnooby (Jun 8, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> View attachment 3702976
> but the dinosaurs were before then, did they fit on the ark too? What about the ten or so different types of prehistoric man? No?
> 
> not to mention how it's physically impossible for the PLANET to gain water in order to flood anything, there is a finite amount of water on the planet, it doesn't eb and flow like that.
> ...



you need some imagination and do a bit more reading before you pretend to know where water can or needs to come from or go..

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/184564-scientists-discover-an-ocean-400-miles-beneath-our-feet-that-could-fill-our-oceans-three-times-over


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

schnooby said:


> you need some imagination and do a bit more reading before you pretend to know where water can or needs to come from or go..
> 
> http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/184564-scientists-discover-an-ocean-400-miles-beneath-our-feet-that-could-fill-our-oceans-three-times-over


hahaha, the amount of disrespect is strong in this one.
ok man, you are totally right... there is a lake of water in the earths mantle, that's just hanging out. And it came out like a snail from it's shell when god commanded it so.
so let me ask you something, smartguy.
since you caught me in a surly mood i'll engage.
what happens when you take that water from the earth?
does it become empty?
so how does physics work there?
Hmmm... perhaps you need to open a book before you even think twice about questioning my scientific aptitude..
I guaran-fuckin-tee if you wanna get into a scientific debate with me? Publicly no less?
I am here.
fire away
besides.. your link proved what I said, the earth has a FINITE amount of water.
but I give you credit, where credit is due, I do, in fact ,"need some imagination"
but I sure as shit don't need to do more reading. I got that down, I own more books on physics than you have probably ever seen.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

schnooby said:


> can i also laugh at the elementary school level composition, grammar and spelling of the meme?
> 
> 
> not to mention like most memes its retardedly over simplified and ignores some obvious caveats to the flood story those who believe the story are well aware of.
> ...


enlighten us of said "caveats"
Please.
the caveat being that it's a mythical story?
or since you already riled me up, perhaps i'll go another route, one directed towards your argument/belief.
Shall We?
1.How did all the germs and disease that MUST live on human hosts live through the flood?
Well-known examples include measles, pneumococcal pneumonia, leprosy, typhus, typhoid fever, small pox, poliomyelitis, syphilis, and gonorrhea. The scientific creationists insist on a _completed_ creation, in which the creator worked but six days and has been resting ever since. Thus, between them, Adam and Eve had to have been created with every disease and had to have passed them all to their children. Later, somebody must have carried them onto Noah's ark.
wow, betcha never thought of that didja?
2. What about cave formations? Ones that can be carbon dated and that have been formed over yrs and yrs rock strata containing trilobites are overturned, the trilobites that are usually found belly down in the rock will now be found belly up. Other things which show geologists and paleontologists which way is up include worm and brachiopod burrows, footprints, fossilized mud cracks, raindrop craters, graded bedding, and similar evidences.

It is really creationists who have no explanation for such strata. Could the flood suddenly reverse the laws of gravity and lay up sediments and fossils instead of laying them down? Upside-down sediments are clearly a problem for the creation model. This isn't surprising, however, given that right-side-up sediments seem to be a problem for it, too.

3. Marine Fossils, The continents are, on an average, covered with sedimentary rock to a depth of about one mile. Some of the rock (chalk, for instance) is essentially 100 percent fossils and many limestones also contain high percentages of marine fossils. On the other hand, some rock is barren. Suppose that, on an average, marine fossils comprise 0.1 percent of the volume of the rock. If all of the fossilized animals could be resurrected, they would cover the entire planet to a depth of at least 1.5 feet. What did they eat?

Creationists can't appeal to the tropical paradise they imagine existed below the pre-Flood canopy, because the laws of thermodynamics prohibit the earth from supporting that much animal biomass. The first law says that energy can't be created, so the animals would have to get their energy from the sun. The second law limits the efficiency with which solar energy can be converted into food. The amount of solar energy available is not nearly sufficient.

You want to continue this? Cuz it's slow at my shop, and I got nothing better to do


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## schnooby (Jun 8, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> enlighten us of said "caveats"
> Please.
> the caveat being that it's a mythical story?
> or since you already riled me up, perhaps i'll go another route, one directed towards your argument/belief.
> ...




sure ill bite but i cant guarantee a prompt response toevery point.

First lets agree that creation narratives, whether they are deistic or athiestic etc depend on some assumptions. In order for there to be an argument there must be premises presented then proven by data which are as free from biased interpretation as possible.

As for me i do not believe completely unbiased analysis can take place......this is a personal a priori belief based on how i view human behavior. ...so please allow me that much.

First lets talk about the flood story. There is not ONE universally agreed version to which all believers stipulate......obviously this could lead to a splintered discussion, therefore we will have to agree to discuss mainly ONE version of the narative. Since you are putting the onus on me to argue against your points perhaps you can allow me to use my personal understanding of the flood story as a reference point for my rebuttals.

My version of the flood story is as follows.

God "created" the earth and all the life on it in 6 days then rested on the 7th. You characterize God as having rested "ever since", citing unspecified creation scientists. What biblical justification is there for believing that after the 7th day God ceased all creative activity or intervention in the affairs of earth? None. There is none because the bible does not tell such a story of the creators involvement in human affairs and even nature. 

Its worth mentioning again, i do not, and need not be an expert on every variation or nuance of what "other" people believe about the flood story. I happen to think most people are quite wrong and confused about the flood story and its details.

So.....if we can allow for the possibility, even a likelihood that God did not cease involvement in the goings on of earth then we can have a real discusssion. If however you refuse to grant me that option there is no need for further discussion. I will continue my reply assuming its ok with you that we pretend god continued to be involved with all life on earth.

So god made adam and eve. Before adam and eve ate of the tree of forbidden knowledge it is said they lived in an idyllic paradise free of death and violence. We may safely assume or read into the brief bibliical narrative that if there was no death that this probably only meant death of creatures and life forms which had some kind of metaphysical, spiritual value. Saying it another way the absence of death need only refer to the death of lifeforms which we might reasonably assume were considered sentient or having a metaphysical value or spiritual worth such that hurting of consuming them would represent some kind of wrongful act. We are led to believe or told that as far as we know there was no death or violence, but we are not given extremely specific information about the permutations of that regarding things which we even now do not consider to be alive, like viruses, or living things which have no consciousness or spiritual value in the ethical context of how to treat them, like bacteria, spores, etc.

So i hope you are beginning to see that if you want to wade into the deep water of how religious stories might interface with modern science you are going to HAVE to let go of childish caricatures and oversimplifications such as often been perpetrated even by professed believers in the biblical account of creation, the flood, and other stories.


So, again your thesis is BASED on certain assumptions you have made about how god created all things and how he continued to be involved in human history and nature. I cannot have a conversation or argument about what everybody else says happened. I CAN have a conversation about what the bible actually says or perhaps allude to. However in such discussions as these it is absolutely critical that each party admit to which narratives, models, interpretations, etc they are depending on to buttress their positions.


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## schnooby (Jun 8, 2016)

Going forward......if we stipulate to what the barebones story the bible actually tells us, it means we must read into the story perhaps more than we should be reasonably allowed given the stark lack of detail about things like microbiological phenomenae. Thus this discussion almost reuuires an undue quantity of theorizing and speculation.


So going back to your first point.yes i have thought about the existence of the things you mentioned.....its not quite the gotcha you might have hoped it was. The fact of the matter is this. If we pretend there was a god who created paradise and then humans fucked it up by disobeying and eating from the forbidden tree, then we can also pretend there would have been some severe consequences to their disobedience, especially since they were specifically warned not to touch or eat of it ". Does the bible bear this out?

..."but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die."

Genesis 2:17

So then, God said that if they ate the fruit they would die. Notice what it doesnt say: when or how. Just that one example of missing information should give people like you some cause for pause before jumping on some wacky bandwagon someone else built about how god couldnt have done something about "the way things are" after adam and eve sinned. This just represents a severe lack of imagination and reveals a giddy, presumptuous anxiousness to use specious interpretations of the bible to somehow prove its rediculous because of what some dumb unimaginative people think its saying.

Sometimes the beauty of a thing is in what it doesnt say.....and one of the things the bible does well, to the consternation of many, is that it leaves out alot of detail about certain things. But absence of proof is not proof of absence..as the story of sin illustrates quite well.

So......the bible says eden was perfect and without death......and that god had decreed only one thing forbidden......and that if trespassed would mean death.

So was there death? Yes......there was death. How did god implement the sentence of death? Did he behead or run throuh or crucify or poison adam and eve? No. What did he do?


think.

He who created the operating model of how all living things coexisted under ONE set of conditions, had out of necessity to create a DIFFERENT model of how living things would interact after the sentence of death was given.

Now.....was that really so hard? 

The bible owes no one a detailed explanation into every aspect of how things are or how they were done. We are told what we need to know, and using a bit of fairly normal intuitive and imaginative processes we can infer that this creator, who created the garden perfect, had to out of necessity CHANGE the model of HOW nature works in order to carry out the sentence of death for transgressing his command.

Now, notice, it doesnt matter if we LIKE the story or AGREE with the story, but if we are going to argue about what the bible means when it says something we need to use a little common sense and assume that if theres a creator who does things orderly and with all the proper underpinnings in which things must work together to exist.....then this same being would most certainly have not left the consequences of sin to some random accidental series of events.

It is worth mentioning that AFTER the flood god specifically ordered noah to eat flesh for the first time.....and the reason in this case was actually given.........to shorten mans life.


Ill get to your other points later.....


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

schnooby said:


> God "created" the earth and all the life on it in 6 days then rested on the 7th. You characterize God as having rested "ever since", citing unspecified creation scientists. What biblical justification is there for believing that after the 7th day God ceased all creative activity or intervention in the affairs of earth? None. There is none because the bible does not tell such a story of the creators involvement in human affairs and even nature.
> 
> Its worth mentioning again, i do not, and need not be an expert on every variation or nuance of what "other" people believe about the flood story. I happen to think most people are quite wrong and confused about the flood story and its details.
> 
> ...


well, I appreciate the response, being a lil more respectful.
but you still didn't explain anything, also I was always curiouss what exactly a "day" was to "god".
24hrs? An earth day? So the 24 hrs day was prior to the sun being made?
On which planet?
seems kinda silly to preface a days work to an immortal omnipotent god.. not to mention the "rest" needed on the seventh day.
I do find your argument very intriguing and ironic
"So, again your thesis is BASED on certain assumptions you have made about how god created all things and how he continued to be involved in human history and nature. I cannot have a conversation or argument about what everybody else says happened. I CAN have a conversation about what the bible actually says or perhaps allude to. However in such discussions as these it is absolutely critical that each party admit to which narratives, models, interpretations, etc they are depending on to buttress their positions"
reason being is that's typically the argument made towards religious folk that are selectively obtuse to science.

for the record I was raised a Baptist Christian, went to church, youth, etc for 4 nights a week for the first part of my life.
so i'm hardly ignorant to the parables.
Oh, another thing.. the "flood" described was eerily similar to many, many others, in other cultures
the Sumerian Flood, found in the "Epic Ziusudra"
like most of the biblical stories, they aren't originals..


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## Slipup420 (Jun 8, 2016)

If god created the Earth 6000 years ago ??? where did the Dinosaurs roam in this equation and why has not Your god come down to save all the christians being Slaughtered by Muslim Are you aware there are more Mosque;s in UK then there are churches ?? if your god loves you so much how come your prayers have yet to be answered ???
also if money is the root of all evil why do churches ask for it


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Now.....was that really so hard?
> 
> The bible owes no one a detailed explanation into every aspect of how things are or how they were done. We are told what we need to know, and using a bit of fairly normal intuitive and imaginative processes we can infer that this creator, who created the garden perfect, had to out of necessity CHANGE the model of HOW nature works in order to carry out the sentence of death for transgressing his command.
> 
> ...


what are you arguing?
that the bible said stuff in it?
I said the noahs ark is NOT something that factually happened, and you are arguing odd, and un-relative points to this.
I care not about adam and eve, the creation story, nor eating flesh for the first time (really?, with the DENTAL make up that we have??)
I was curious about the "caveats" you mentioned, the ones relative to the" noahs ark fable"
that was my argument, the rest about the history of the bible is not only superfluous but not relative
don't make me bust out my "argument-ending-meme"... cuz ii will...


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> If god created the Earth 6000 years ago ??? where did the Dinosaurs roam in this equation and why has not Your god come down to save all the christians being Slaughtered by Muslim Are you aware there are more Mosque;s in UK then there are churches ?? if your god loves you so much how come your prayers have yet to be answered ???
> also if money is the root of all evil why do churches ask for it


ohhhhh man... and NOW your true colors have shown...
Fuck me running..
First.... the earth is WAAAAAAY more than 6000 yrs old.
you are on the cusp of ignore-ment.. feels like the flat-earth thread...
arguing with you is lowering my IQ already..
I feel like this kid here..


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## Slipup420 (Jun 8, 2016)

True colors in the bible does it not say its 6000 years old ?? i do not believe in any gods nor jesus or any religion i believe in do on to others as they do onto you end of story, The bible is a Joke your born you live when you die that is it nothing more that is it that is all


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## schnooby (Jun 8, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> what are you arguing?
> that the bible said stuff in it?
> I said the noahs ark is NOT something that factually happened, and you are arguing odd, and un-relative points to this.
> I care not about adam and eve, the creation story, nor eating flesh for the first time (really?, with the DENTAL make up that we have??)
> ...



the appeals you are making are in part depending on the bibke story being true. You are using what you think is an absurdity in the story to discount the veracity of the story.....thats an appeal to absurdity and is a logical fallacy.


if you are going to use a meme which relies on stupid caricatures pretending to be biblical truth, to redicule the bible and christianity, then you are committing intellectual suicide. Its not intellectually honest or even logical to try to argue against something by using a distorted definition of that something and compare it to another cartoonish reductionist prop to discredit the first thing.

Let me try to say it another way. Youre using a meme which represents a certain VERSION of the belief in the biblical flood and casting THAT version as absurd. Well the truth is your (that) version IS absurd because its not even based on good, sound exegesis of the scriptures. 

Then you asked about microbiological organisms and that somehow bringing that to bear on the genesis account would make it look like the bible doesnt allow for that or that i hadnt thought of it. Brother, let me tell you something......theres almost nothing related to this existence in regards to creation and god etc that i havent thought of.......just somethin to keep under yer hat....


You asked me what am i arguing. Well, im arguing against the points you raised, what else? If what you want to do is dictate the terms of the argument such that only certain references can be allowed or are relevant then we have no legitimate argument. You sir, decided to post jn a religious thread, assuming that discussions would reference all manner of evidence, narrative, opinion, etc. If you are not interested in hearing them i dont know why you are here. To find more reasons to buttress your confirmation bias?

My caveats to the ark story, belatedly, as follows.

Not all species that exist today existed back then. Referring back to the meme this is a false assumption made in order to redicule the idea its possible to build a boat capable of holding parental genetic stock for major branches of the animal kingdom (genus vs species)

All sea life could be protecteed in the sea. 

Dinosaurs are not mentioned as one of the animals god created. 

Antedeluvians were probably all giants and much stronger and smarter making them capable of great feats of science and engineering even back then. The bible says they lived almost 1000 years. Its unlikely that beings with such long lifespans would be as small as we are today. The common sense reasoning here would be to assume that beings who lived nearly 1000 years were similarly superior to modern man in every other way.

As giants with long life spans it would have been practically easy to build a giant floating craft using woods much stronger than exist today and with building techniques as mysterious but undeniable as those used to construct the pyramids.

The water issue is easy. The interior of the earth likely has more empty spaces than solid spaces......where more than enough water to account for the flood could be stored or transported through various natural mechanisms. 

Caves. I dont know much about geology or palentology. Im not an expert in the fossil record.
J do know that most science uses an analytical template often called "uniformitarianism" through which to view the evidence and data they collect.

What things like massive flooding and catastrophic events like mt st helens show us....is under certain circumsances catastrophic events can shape the earth very quickly and violently, not needing millions of years to build up small layers or condense minerals in columns or stalagmites/tites etc.

Carbon dating is known to have serious consistency/age limitations.....probly dont want to open that can of worms here.....but safe to say carbon dating relies on a theeory of uniformity of conditions which as i said above doesnt play nice with catastrophism or other possible conditions that existed only for a time under very different circumstances. For example some creationists believe in the vapor shell theory (the windows of heaven) and believe theres evidence that the magnetosphere was exponentially more powerful (non judaic mythos agrees), and that barometric pressure was much greater (makes sense because we know dinos would not be able to breathe in our current atmospheric pressure). Bizarre atmospheric differences between a preflood world and NOW create horrible accuracy complications for all dating techniques.


I feel like im wandering now.....too late and im stoned.....ill try this again later


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Dinosaurs are not mentioned as one of the animals god created.
> 
> Antedeluvians were probably all giants and much stronger and smarter making them capable of great feats of science and engineering even back then. The bible says they lived almost 1000 years. Its unlikely that beings with such long lifespans would be as small as we are today. The common sense reasoning here would be to assume that beings who lived nearly 1000 years were similarly superior to modern man in every other way.
> 
> ...


ahh man... ok, we are going to have to just disagree on this, you are selectively overlooking the things i'm saying.
and the sheer fact that you don't believe in dinosaurs is just silly.
and the water thing?
you don't seem to understand gravity, and the earths molten rock. it simply CANNOT be empty, air isn't heavier or more dense than rock, or water, so that simply cannot happen.
you did point out your limited knowledge on geology and paleontology and perhaps that's why your views are a lil skewed.
and the magnetosphere is indeed fluctuating and changing polarity, hence the weakness and strength of it, but that's all proven with carbon dating, sooooo...


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> True colors in the bible does it not say its 6000 years old ?? i do not believe in any gods nor jesus or any religion i believe in do on to others as they do onto you end of story, The bible is a Joke your born you live when you die that is it nothing more that is it that is all


you do know I am an ATHEIST... right?
are you asking me to prove that the earth IS 6000 yrs old?
Maybe you simply are misunderstanding me?


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## Slipup420 (Jun 8, 2016)

No i am not asking you to prove the world is 6000 years old its much older then that but its what the BS bible teaches its 6000 years old


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## ThickStemz (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> No i am not asking you to prove the world is 6000 years old its much older then that but its what the BS bible teaches its 6000 years old


The bible doesn't teach a 6 thousand year old birth. Some people read things in the bible and interpreted a 6 thousand year old earth. 

Were clearly hundreds of thousands of years old


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## schnooby (Jun 9, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ahh man... ok, we are going to have to just disagree on this, you are selectively overlooking the things i'm saying.
> and the sheer fact that you don't believe in dinosaurs is just silly.
> and the water thing?
> you don't seem to understand gravity, and the earths molten rock. it simply CANNOT be empty, air isn't heavier or more dense than rock, or water, so that simply cannot happen.
> ...



no, i do believe in dinosaurs i just dont believe in general they were gods creations. There is anecdotal evidence which crosses many ancient mythos that bizarre creatures have existed which were hybrids or genetically manipulated and i believe the reason why dinosaurs were not saved through the flood is either due to their rogue genetics or that they would have no place in the post flood world.


molten rock. You do know that estimates of the earths crust thickness are anywhere between 20 and 30 miles which is more than enough room to store our current ocean many times over. The molten rock i think you must be referring to only occur where plates slip, or where volcanic activity happens and all of those represent very small footprints compared to the entire surface area and depth of the crust. As for gravity and the mechanisms which could cause water to move in and out of the crust we know there are forces which can easily overcome gravity under certain conditions, pressure differentials, voids or spaces created by cataclysmic crustal displacement or perhaps other methods. Ithink its naive to assume we understand something we werent even there to see and since flood mythos crosses numerous cultures it would be highly ignorant to categorically dismiss the entirety of those ancient tales as nothing more than the product of a cross cultural hoax or delusion.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 9, 2016)

schnooby said:


> no, i do believe in dinosaurs i just dont believe in general they were gods creations. There is anecdotal evidence which crosses many ancient mythos that bizarre creatures have existed which were hybrids or genetically manipulated and i believe the reason why dinosaurs were not saved through the flood is either due to their rogue genetics or that they would have no place in the post flood world.
> 
> 
> molten rock. You do know that estimates of the earths crust thickness are anywhere between 20 and 30 miles which is more than enough room to store our current ocean many times over. The molten rock i think you must be referring to only occur where plates slip, or where volcanic activity happens and all of those represent very small footprints compared to the entire surface area and depth of the crust. As for gravity and the mechanisms which could cause water to move in and out of the crust we know there are forces which can easily overcome gravity under certain conditions, pressure differentials, voids or spaces created by cataclysmic crustal displacement or perhaps other methods. Ithink its naive to assume we understand something we werent even there to see and since flood mythos crosses numerous cultures it would be highly ignorant to categorically dismiss the entirety of those ancient tales as nothing more than the product of a cross cultural hoax or delusion.


according to your link that "water" is held in the mantle though, NOT the crust.


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## Flowki (Jun 9, 2016)

You need to understand a thing people always over look. If it is true and when you die you die, that's it, then that means nothing you do in life matters. The world and our solar system will one day end and every generation after us will soon join us in the nothingness. So you can't even hold onto the notion that what you pass down to the next generation matters.. time is fickle, sooner than you think none of it will matter.

If everyone could comprehend and accept that, what would stop people walking into the street right now and blowing the head off of the first person they comes into contact with?. What stops people who understand this notion of nothing matters breaking every law in the book?. I can only put that down to the over riding attribute of survival instinct. Blow a mans head off, your life is over.. you can't reproduce as is written into your dna.

I have personally come to accept what feels like a real possibility nothing exists after death thus nothing matters. Still, I walk through life with a caring for others and a desire to do good even though I completely understand it likely means nothing at all. Doing good is often harder than doing bad, like shagging my brothers wife?.. These feelings have nothing to do with my personal built in survival instincts. They are something else driving. Possibly a safety net to stop insanity taking over at the notion that good, bad and your life means nothing.

On the other hand, it could be down to a little bit of hope. I don't know if god or jesus exist but I do know we also don't know for a fact that life ends after death. We know people have died and been revived reporting nothing but black. They were potentially not dead long enough for what ever passes over.. to pass over. It takes 9 month to conceive a baby for example, who has no recollection of the early days/weeks of cell division. The same type of passage could be true after death. If you pass over into some other raw energy type existence or something else of such a nature, you would not be able to return to this reality and speak with loved ones.

So yeah, I'm still sitting on the fence but have one foot in the garden of nothingness.

I forgot to make the real point o0. I think we constantly ask the wrong questions in regards to the existence of any god or what is after death. It would be better to focus on the elusive ''meaning of life''. It seems odd life would evolve to be utterly pointless. Even in nature you see a tendency to waste nothing. If nature is a by product of the universe you would assume the universe (probably far greater than we will ever comprehend) also wastes nothing. If you were going to create something for nothing then surely the answer would be don't create anything in the first place. Perhaps logic is a weakness in understanding subjects like this. 

For me, one explanation is that life developed to fuel (perhaps minutely) the expansion of the universe in some way. We don't know how many planets have life on them or at what point but we do know a by product of life is methane as one simple and possible use for life. That still begs the question of what is the point of the universe expanding, let alone what is it expanding into.

This leads back to my somewhat feelings of despise for naive scientists or people who claim an after life 100% is or is not. Their are many wave lengths of light and sound on this very planet we can not see or hear. Many processes both above and below the ocean we do not understand. A huge portion of the known universe is there but ''not measurable by today's means'', then theirs quantum physics. Still, with all that lack of understanding we are confident in saying yes or no to a god or after life entirely based on what we can not see. Arguably their might well be a god like presence pulling the strings and is too busy with things that actually matter rather than tend to one fearful species out of potentially trillions. Or ofc, their might not be.


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## schnooby (Jun 9, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> View attachment 3703760
> according to your link that "water" is held in the mantle though, NOT the crust.


http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-modern-groundwater-20151116-story.html


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 9, 2016)

schnooby said:


> http://www.latimes.com/science/sciencenow/la-sci-sn-modern-groundwater-20151116-story.html


so which is it?
and still, that's your argument for the flood?
and like I said the earth has a finite amount of water.
so god made all the water magically spring out of the water, and simultaneously NOT absorbed back into it? I guess if what you think defies physics and logic, I can't convince you otherwise.
That's a very interesting argument man.
One that I simply am not going to take part of.


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## bird mcbride (Jun 9, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> so which is it?
> and still, that's your argument for the flood?
> and like I said the earth has a finite amount of water.
> so god made all the water magically spring out of the water, and simultaneously NOT absorbed back into it? I guess if what you think defies physics and logic, I can't convince you otherwise.
> ...


You see...after the molten Earth cooled there was a huge amount of h2o trapped under a very thin crust. When this mantle cracked from cooling and contracting it could no longer support its bubble like state and plummeted into the depth creating the all water planet. And because large volumes of h2o were attracted to the poles and froze there we got land.

I can understand some dude being followed by a huge crowd if he knew how to make good booze  Just "think"...water into wine.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 10, 2016)

bird mcbride said:


> You see...after the molten Earth cooled there was a huge amount of h2o trapped under a very thin crust. When this mantle cracked from cooling and contracting it could no longer support its bubble like state and plummeted into the depth creating the all water planet. And because large volumes of h2o were attracted to the poles and froze there we got land.
> 
> I can understand some dude being followed by a huge crowd if he knew how to make good booze  Just "think"...water into wine.


ahhhh...
I see it so clearly now!
the earth IS flat!
and THATS why it worked, plus the moon landing was faked, Christianity ISNT just a repeated version of a bunch of retold parables, and in reality?
well shit man.
America is awesome, go TRUMP
yee haw.
So glad it'd Friday...
I got eight hours till mass quantities of sushi, beer, saki, and a cute girl to accompany me.
Which means nothing but agreement from me today
everything is A-ok


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## schnooby (Jun 10, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> so which is it?
> and still, that's your argument for the flood?
> and like I said the earth has a finite amount of water.
> so god made all the water magically spring out of the water, and simultaneously NOT absorbed back into it? I guess if what you think defies physics and logic, I can't convince you otherwise.
> ...



youre not making any sense man.

you criticized the first link because it said there was water under the crust.....then i provided a link showing there is water in the crust as well.

Nowhere did i say definitively that i knew exactly which processes were involved in the flood......the bible mentions at least two "the great deep was broken up" and " the windows of heaven were opened" Genesis 7:11

Now, go ahead and redicule all you want.....i find it a rather intellectually lazy way out but go ahead.

The fact of the matter is science is continuously uncovering MORE, not less, evidence which backs up many accounts from the bible as well as other ancient sources. People like you sit so secure and smug in your supposed understanding of science, meanwhile you refuse to acknowledge other scientific sources of legitimate, credible information which challenge many of the antiquated academic ideas many of the old guard cling to with trembling hands.

Mainstream scientists are becoming not just more comfortable with the idea of catastrophism playing key roles in critical periods of earths history, but are also becoming more convinced all the time that catastrophic events were the likely culprits of massive flooding, tectonic upheavals, etc.

So im not sure what youre talkiing about when you appear to be mocking the idea water could be displaced within the interior of the earth to the surface of the earth and that it would violate gravity or laws of physics. Take a straw and stick it into a cup of water, place your finger over the top of the straw and pull the straw out.......what happened? Water stays inside the straw because of a force that in that situation overcomes the force of gravity. 

I hope you can employ that vast imagination you think you have and try to not oversimplify things to a cartoonish extreme and realize there are dozens of conditions which could exist causing vast amounts of water to move from one place to another without violating any laws. If you cannot conceive of that possibility or admit to the evidence showing it happens then as far as i can tell youve ceded your personal curiosity and intellectual integrity to "the experts" and moved from the drivers seat to the back passenger seat sitting in a booster chair.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 10, 2016)

schnooby said:


> youre not making any sense man.
> 
> you criticized the first link because it said there was water under the crust.....then i provided a link showing there is water in the crust as well.
> 
> ...


ok your explanation totally makes sense.
there was a giant straw that god employed to make the flood, gotcha.
My bad.
Happy Friday.


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## schnooby (Jun 10, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ok your explanation totally makes sense.
> there was a giant straw that god employed to make the flood, gotcha.
> My bad.
> Happy Friday.



bravo

absolutely picture perfect example of reductio ad absurdum.........readers take note here.


Heres the thing man, i dont claim to know everything.....i am confident in most things i believe but i consider myself adaptable to new information and i relish discussing isdues with opposing points of view. I dont need you to be particularly polite, i have pretty thick skin, however what i really cannot stand is the pretense people like you make to desire evidence with the intent to change opinion if its convincing enouh, but in actuality all you seem to really want is to engage in argument for sport, which is all well and good of course, but it has nothing at all to do with a real desire and search for truth. Please leave off of acting like youre actually willing to change your beliefs even in the minutest degree. I personally think you already have your mind well made up about what you think of all the big themes.

And you know what? so do i, and i dont feel egotisic or special for saying that.....and neither should you if its the case.


however, for those who are still on the fence.....i urge you to always be skeptical of everything including your own skepticism.......

read every siide to every issue to the exteent possible....


expose yourself to opposing ooints of view and variety of opinion as much as possible


ask why

be curious


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## Just Let Me Be Faded (Jun 10, 2016)

Why can't I dislike? Where is it?


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## JCS57 (Jun 11, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Going forward......if we stipulate to what the barebones story the bible actually tells us, it means we must read into the story perhaps more than we should be reasonably allowed given the stark lack of detail about things like microbiological phenomenae. Thus this discussion almost reuuires an undue quantity of theorizing and speculation.
> 
> So going back to your first point.yes i have thought about the existence of the things you mentioned.....its not quite the gotcha you might have hoped it was. The fact of the matter is this. If we pretend there was a god who created paradise and then humans fucked it up by disobeying and eating from the forbidden tree, then we can also pretend there would have been some severe consequences to their disobedience, especially since they were specifically warned not to touch or eat of it ". Does the bible bear this out?
> 
> ..."but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for .





schnooby said:


> sure ill bite but i cant guarantee a prompt response toevery point.
> 
> First lets agree that creation narratives, whether they are deistic or athiestic etc depend on some assumptions. In order for there to be an argument there must be premises presented then proven by data which are as free from biased interpretation as possible.
> 
> ...


At this point you should have stopped. With every let's pretend or my version of and likelihood you inject why not just write your own bible. The two biggest flaws of the Christian Bible are 1) self interpretation in other words making it say what it don't say 2) reading it literally and believing every word is true.


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 11, 2016)

They can't say it's a myth..hundreds of millions people on a weird religion......too much.


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## schnooby (Jun 11, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> At this point you should have stopped. With every let's pretend or my version of and likelihood you inject why not just write your own bible. The two biggest flaws of the Christian Bible are 1) self interpretation in other words making it say what it don't say 2) reading it literally and believing every word is true.


sorry to break it to you buddy, but everyone has their own version of reality. We are just obscenely LUCKY that some of the time enough of our common reality overlaps that we can even understand each other.

get a grip on that for a minute.

Heres another thing to think about. Before you even look at what it is youre arguing for or against, spend at least as much time looking at the TOOL, the internal infrastructure and capability and limitation, of this thing youre using to break down, to deconstruct, analyze, synthesize and then arrive at a reasonable interpretation of the information.......this tool is YOU, its your brain, your mind, you MEAT suit.......and boy dont kid yourself that meat suit comes with an awful lot of baggage that affects how you approach any given thing and how you interact with that thing.

If you havent ever spent some decent time looking deep inside yourself and understanding whats there, literally performing a self inentory and analysis, following the ancient advice of the greatest minds, "know thyself"......then you are ill prepared to effectively parse out and reassemble anything on the order of creation, existence, and the mysteries of life, you just wont get the right answers and probably wont have the riht questions at critical junctions in the truth learning journey.

If youre going to critique an assertion or statement of mine, i kindly ask that you at least attempt to show some well reasoned arguments why i said something logically inaccurate (remember, logic doesnt mean the THING being argued has to be true, only the logic must be sound)


As to your criticism of the bible........perhaps you didnt realize that your criticism literally was not of the bible at all, but rather what PEOPLE are doing to and with the bible. In that regard i agree with you. People do ver often misuse the bible. This literally has NOTHING to do with the bible itself, since misuse of a thing is so common it would be illogical to blame the object for being misused.

Would you like to try again?


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## bird mcbride (Jun 11, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ok your explanation totally makes sense.
> there was a giant straw that god employed to make the flood, gotcha.
> My bad.
> Happy Friday.


Even if God uses a straw he shouldn't be drinking while driving


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## bird mcbride (Jun 11, 2016)

Let's take it a bit before the flood. At one point our yellow star was an orange giant and before that a blue super-giant. This star that we refer to as the Sun has nova'd in the past and it will nova again in the future. At the last nova the planet that is now referred to as the Earth was formed, along with various other planets and planetoids. At one point the Earth was nothing but a frozen mud ball, gathering up everything smaller in it's path with its gravitational attraction. The star was in it's last throws of being a orange star and was still experiencing mass solar ejecta. The stars solar system was littered with debris to a point where very little of the stars light reached the Earth. The Earth inherited its large volumes of water by being struck by a massive solar ejecta. This is where the Earth became a fire planet and inherited its Moon. If this collision would not have occurred, there would/could be no life on Earth. When fire burns out it collapses onto itself due to gravitational and magnetic fields...it all make perfect sense if it's put in plain English. At one point the moon was very much like the Earth but when the Moons core cooled it lost its magnetic fields and the Moon lost its lighter elements to the star. One day this will happen to the Earth, most likely before the Sun nova's and becomes a dwarf. At present Venus is a fire planet with a heavy dense atmosphere and Mars where I believe that at one time had vast oceans has lost its fields and most of its lighter elements.


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## schnooby (Jun 11, 2016)

bird mcbride said:


> Even if God uses a straw he shouldn't be drinking while driving



that actually made me laugh......i mean for real......very clever humor


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## bird mcbride (Jun 11, 2016)

schnooby said:


> that actually made me laugh......i mean for real......very clever humor


Those other guys caused it. I found it really funny too


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## schnooby (Jun 11, 2016)

bird mcbride said:


> Let's take it a bit before the flood. At one point our yellow star was an orange giant and before that a blue super-giant. This star that we refer to as the Sun has nova'd in the past and it will nova again in the future. At the last nova the planet that is now referred to as the Earth was formed, along with various other planets and planetoids. At one point the Earth was nothing but a frozen mud ball, gathering up everything smaller in it's path with its gravitational attraction. The star was in it's last throws of being a orange star and was still experiencing mass solar ejecta. The stars solar system was littered with debris to a point where very little of the stars light reached the Earth. The Earth inherited its large volumes of water by being struck by a massive solar ejecta. This is where the Earth became a fire planet and inherited its Moon. If this collision would not have occurred, there would/could be no life on Earth. When fire burns out it collapses onto itself due to gravitational and magnetic fields...it all make perfect sense if it's put in plain English. At one point the moon was very much like the Earth but when the Moons core cooled it lost its magnetic fields and the Moon lost its lighter elements to the star. One day this will happen to the Earth, most likely before the Sun nova's and becomes a dwarf. At present Venus is a fire planet with a heavy dense atmosphere and Mars where I believe that at one time had vast oceans has lost its fields and most of its lighter elements.



can i genuinely ask what youre getting at?


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## JCS57 (Jun 11, 2016)

schnooby said:


> sorry to break it to you buddy, but everyone has their own version of reality. We are just obscenely LUCKY that some of the time enough of our common reality overlaps that we can even understand each other.
> *Common reality is very common we're stuck on the same rock together nothing to get a grip on its unavoidable.*
> 
> get a grip on that for a minute.
> ...


*Why something change from yesterday?*


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## schnooby (Jun 11, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *Why something change from yesterday?*


i dont know what youre getting at. The text in bold is something i never wrote.


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## JCS57 (Jun 11, 2016)

schnooby said:


> i dont know what youre getting at. The text in bold is something i never wrote.


The text in bold is my response. But skip it anyway since your screed doesn't even address the biases prejudices and experiences of the many people that authored the Bible. You expect the readers to under go self exam in order interpret what they are reading but you haven't addressed how or even if the authors did said same while writing it. So fellow meat suit get a grip on that.


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## schnooby (Jun 12, 2016)

JC, im sure your view feels perfectly reasonable to you. So whos doesnt? How many people have you met in your life who readily admit or like to admit they are wrong? How about people who are willing to admit they are ignorant? If your experience is anything like mine it is likely most of the people you have met believe that their opinions and understanding of reality is just as legit as anyone elses. However, i think you admit as i do that we know this is not the case. Peoples intellectual capacitied, sanity, perceptual accuracy, emotional stability and so many other factors vary so widely, that as i said earlier, it is amazing humans get along as well as they do, hence my "meat suit" comment.


That being said, it is perhaps of interest and maybe even necessary in some cases to want to look into those biases, experiences etc of the biblical authors. However, might i suggest that allowing questions of those kind to get in the way of an open minded assessment of the bible on its own merits would be in danger of commiting a very common logical fallacy called "attacking the messenger". Im sure youve heard of it. 


Let me put it another way. If i was driviing down a road and someone jumped out in front of my car waving their arms with a crazed expression on their face screaming a warning to not go further because there was a bridge out or a shooting or any number of dangerous situations awaiting i might be inclined to disregard him purely on the basis of his appearance and behavior. However doing so would violate protocols of logical analysis. Taking into account any other environmental variables and added together with his behavior i could perhaps have a chance at piecing together a reasonable assessment of what actions to take. if it was a clear blue sky, no smoke or noise in the distance, no sirens etc i might choose to proceed with caution. IIf it was raining hard and the sky was dark i might still proceed but very cautiously or even decide the man was t1elling the truth. If there were sirens in the distance and smoke or hard rain or any other conditions which could lend credence to the claims of the wild eyed man i might be very inclined to believe him.

So forgive a hasty and poor analogy, but im sure you get my meaning. God doesnt want blind faith. God wants people to have reasons for why they believe what they do. "come now and let us reason together" he says. Is. 1:18

You see, it doesnt really matter if you think the bible is rediculous. Plenty of real things are rediculous. You need not even like God to admit it is or is not real. A truly open mind and reasonable person will admit if something is true even if they dont like it. I happen to not like many things about the reality that i believe in, but i believe in it because my intellect, intuition and awareness demand it. 

If a person was truly interested in establishing a basis for why to believe or not believe in the bible i could provide ample evidence for the former. Reasons for the latter are usually not wanting.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 12, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> The text in bold is my response. But skip it anyway since your screed doesn't even address the biases prejudices and experiences of the many people that authored the Bible. You expect the readers to under go self exam in order interpret what they are reading but you haven't addressed how or even if the authors did said same while writing it. So fellow meat suit get a grip on that.


There is a flaw in this reasoning. You don't believe in god and therefore reject the bible's clear teaching of "holy men of god were moved as the holy spirit moved them." God spoke through men by the power of the holy spirit, not certain people wrote what they believed. Even Jesus said he didn't speak of his own accord, but rather god gave the people the message through him.


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## Big_Lou (Jun 12, 2016)

Everyone loves a good tall tale, it's in our nature. And the Christian bible is chock-FULL of knee-slappin' bullshitters!


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## JCS57 (Jun 12, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> There is a flaw in this reasoning. You don't believe in god and therefore reject the bible's clear teaching of "holy men of god were moved as the holy spirit moved them." God spoke through men by the power of the holy spirit, not certain people wrote what they believed. Even Jesus said he didn't speak of his own accord, but rather god gave the people the message through him.


Don't believe in god? Ah....which one. See here's the flaw in your reasoning, who told you that God spoke through men other men. The Bible was bought and paid for by emperor Constantine and the books were voted in by his lackeys.


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 12, 2016)

Better yet, if he exist..he would have been acquitted of this.


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## schnooby (Jun 13, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> Don't believe in god? Ah....which one. See here's the flaw in your reasoning, who told you that God spoke through men other men. The Bible was bought and paid for by emperor Constantine and the books were voted in by his lackeys.



JC, i directly answered the points you raised and instead of acknowledging or contesting them you appear to now be jumping around to other reasons to mock the bible. If you cant stay on topic and focused theres no reason for you to be here and pretend you have an interest in elucidating the things you claim are nonsensical.

As to which god....since you brought it up.....

in all time and places of human history the vast majority of everyone who has ever lived has believed in a god or intelligent creative force. Only in our modern era are some so arrogant and proud to think they are special and better than everyone else who has ever lived.


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 13, 2016)

..we don't even know Jesus..


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 13, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> Don't believe in god? Ah....which one. See here's the flaw in your reasoning, who told you that God spoke through men other men. The Bible was bought and paid for by emperor Constantine and the books were voted in by his lackeys.


Obviously we were talking about the god of the bible. 

And of course constantine did what every other emperor of the time was doing - trying to consolidate power by uniting religions that are opposite each other, even though one was worshiping the wrong "sun". If you want to get into constantine and all the things he made law and how he actually persecuted and killed real believers, be my guest. 

However, if you have anything relevant to contribute to the conversation, i'm sure we would enjoy that much more.


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 13, 2016)

People, these days, defy Christianity..so in vane..


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## R1b3n4 (Jun 13, 2016)




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## schnooby (Jun 13, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Obviously we were talking about the god of the bible.
> 
> And of course constantine did what every other emperor of the time was doing - trying to consolidate power by uniting religions that are opposite each other, even though one was worshiping the wrong "sun". If you want to get into constantine and all the things he made law and how he actually persecuted and killed real believers, be my guest.
> 
> However, if you have anything relevant to contribute to the conversation, i'm sure we would enjoy that much more.



i probly dont have to tell you that this guys obcession with constantines role in chriatianity and the bible is a very common red herring they get caught up in......that thinking is very similar again to the attack the messenger logical fallacy because instead of asking if the bible as we have it is reliable, internally consistent and relevant to human history they are saying well if this guy ever laid his hands on the bible then it MUST be corrupt and if you disprove that theyll just jump like some nervous little rabbit onto the next pedestal of doubt they have in their collection. I really dont know if theres much you can do for them.


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## JCS57 (Jun 13, 2016)

schnooby said:


> JC, im sure your view feels perfectly reasonable to you. So whos doesnt? How many people have you met in your life who readily admit or like to admit they are wrong? How about people who are willing to admit they are ignorant? If your experience is anything like mine it is likely most of the people you have met believe that their opinions and understanding of reality is just as legit as anyone elses. However, i think you admit as i do that we know this is not the case. Peoples intellectual capacitied, sanity, perceptual accuracy, emotional stability and so many other factors vary so widely, that as i said earlier, it is amazing humans get along as well as they do, hence my "meat suit" comment.
> *
> Even with all that it still works, if it didn't we'd still be living in trees or under rocks.*
> 
> ...


*
I don't think the Bible is ridiculous just the rubes using it to justify their hate and bigotry. Open mindedness and being reasonable I'm down with, that's why Im an atheist. How many gods do you believe in and worship? If you only adhere to the Christian God then aren't you closing your mind to the other possibilities thus choosing your own reality. A truly open and reasonable mind would admit the other possibility are just as viable as their own. Non belief is reasonable and open minded since it isn't picking one over the other it's simply standing by until more information can be acquired thus allowing for a more reasoned decision possibly at some point in the future.*


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## JCS57 (Jun 13, 2016)

schnooby said:


> i probly dont have to tell you that this guys obcession with constantines role in chriatianity and the bible is a very common red herring they get caught up in......that thinking is very similar again to the attack the messenger logical fallacy because instead of asking if the bible as we have it is reliable, internally consistent and relevant to human history they are saying well if this guy ever laid his hands on the bible then it MUST be corrupt and if you disprove that theyll just jump like some nervous little rabbit onto the next pedestal of doubt they have in their collection. I really dont know if theres much you can do for them.


*Constantine is hardly a red herring if your talking about the Bible, without him the Bible as you know doesn't happen. Since we're talking fallacy here look up ad hominem. *


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## JCS57 (Jun 13, 2016)

schnooby said:


> JC, i directly answered the points you raised and instead of acknowledging or contesting them you appear to now be jumping around to other reasons to mock the bible. If you cant stay on topic and focused theres no reason for you to be here and pretend you have an interest in elucidating the things you claim are nonsensical.
> 
> As to which god....since you brought it up.....
> 
> in all time and places of human history the vast majority of everyone who has ever lived has believed in a god or intelligent creative force. Only in our modern era are some so arrogant and proud to think they are special and better than everyone else who has ever lived.


*Times in history majorities have believed many things that are now known not to be true. Many of the god beliefs are mutually exclusive thus rendering a comparitive between them a non starter. Either their right or your right or you're both wrong.*


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## bird mcbride (Jun 13, 2016)

Last time I seen Jesus he looked like he just crawled out from under a rock


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## schnooby (Jun 13, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *I don't think the Bible is ridiculous just the rubes using it to justify their hate and bigotry. Open mindedness and being reasonable I'm down with, that's why Im an atheist. How many gods do you believe in and worship? If you only adhere to the Christian God then aren't you closing your mind to the other possibilities thus choosing your own reality. A truly open and reasonable mind would admit the other possibility are just as viable as their own. Non belief is reasonable and open minded since it isn't picking one over the other it's simply standing by until more information can be acquired thus allowing for a more reasoned decision possibly at some point in the future.*



its cool man, im not interested in argumentative pissing matches on god cuz i think all it accomplishes is hardening people against future contact with the divine.

you seem pretty well entrenched in your beliefs and like i said before that in and of itself is nothing bad because i am too. the only problem really is that on issues which seem to demand kind of a deep understanding of so many knowledge domains and using really sound logic it can make debating those issues really contentious and play into ego and love of conflict etc......and i think those kinds of motived are a waste of time and self defeating.....

i could continue countering every point you raise and it probably would not matter how convincing and factual my evidence was, you will still be inclined to reject it.....at least from my somehwat brief ecxchange with you on here. Perhaps youre very open minded ( my definion is different than yours) on other issues but when it comes to religion you have an itch to go after it and try to discredit it. I see that as evidence usually of just outriht hate or disgust for something OR theres a part of you thatwants to beliee but you cant explain it well enough to justify it to yourself or youre not convinced its real and maybe you wish it was....etc......lots of possible reasons why you are here or what your isdues are....

join the club we all have em.


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## JCS57 (Jun 13, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Obviously we were talking about the god of the bible.
> 
> And of course constantine did what every other emperor of the time was doing - trying to consolidate power by uniting religions that are opposite each other, even though one was worshiping the wrong "sun". If you want to get into constantine and all the things he made law and how he actually persecuted and killed real believers, be my guest.
> 
> However, if you have anything relevant to contribute to the conversation, i'm sure we would enjoy that much more.


*Since the sun not the proposed son has a very real impact on this planet and the posited son is but a re-telling of older myths me thinks they should have kept worshipping the one true sun. Even the God of the Bible is postulated differently from denomination to denomination with tenets exclusive to their group. They as you believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, again mutually exclusive.*


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## bird mcbride (Jun 13, 2016)

The people that worshiped the star we call "The Sun" were almost correct. This star is where the elements came from that helped form life on "Earth"...as we call it, you know...the big mud ball that got lit up...


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## JCS57 (Jun 13, 2016)

schnooby said:


> its cool man, im not interested in argumentative pissing matches on god cuz i think all it accomplishes is hardening people against future contact with the divine.
> 
> you seem pretty well entrenched in your beliefs and like i said before that in and of itself is nothing bad because i am too. the only problem really is that on issues which seem to demand kind of a deep understanding of so many knowledge domains and using really sound logic it can make debating those issues really contentious and play into ego and love of conflict etc......and i think those kinds of motived are a waste of time and self defeating.....
> 
> ...


*I'm not entrenched in my non belief at all, just provide something more tangible and my beliefs can change. You keep bringing up deep understanding, open minds, bias, logic, yada yada. I was a Christian at one time, it's exactly those things that lead me from that wildness. After years of examining my beliefs and relentless praying I had to ask myself could I actually be believing in and praying to the wrong god. Once I honestly accepted that the proposition could be true (meaning I opened my mind) the rest was easy. Most god claims have the same thing in common theirs is the one true god and the only way to enlightenment and you can define enlightenment to fit any supposed benefit that these beliefs allegedly provide. I imagine you're as much an atheist as I am concerning most gods the only difference is I go one God further.

*


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 13, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Going forward......if we stipulate to what the barebones story the bible actually tells us, it means we must read into the story perhaps more than we should be reasonably allowed given the stark lack of detail about things like microbiological phenomenae. Thus this discussion almost reuuires an undue quantity of theorizing and speculation.
> 
> 
> So going back to your first point.yes i have thought about the existence of the things you mentioned.....its not quite the gotcha you might have hoped it was. The fact of the matter is this. If we pretend there was a god who created paradise and then humans fucked it up by disobeying and eating from the forbidden tree, then we can also pretend there would have been some severe consequences to their disobedience, especially since they were specifically warned not to touch or eat of it ". Does the bible bear this out?
> ...


You are delusional.
Sin? Just a way to control People through fear. Nothing in the book is real, or original. Except maybe the mention of a few battles, or kings.
There is no divine creator. It's too far fetched. We are not special. We are a parasitic organism that can think, on a rock in space. Big whoop.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 13, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *Since the sun not the proposed son has a very real impact on this planet and the posited son is but a re-telling of older myths me thinks they should have kept worshipping the one true sun. Even the God of the Bible is postulated differently from denomination to denomination with tenets exclusive to their group. They as you believe they are right and everyone else is wrong, again mutually exclusive.*


there are many gods, along with counterfeit religions "based" off the bible. However, the bible interprets itself. all the symbolism and meanings within it are interpreted by itself, not the reader. I know it's hard to understand since all you ever did was go to church on sundays when god says he doesn't dwell in churches on that day. so keep spouting off your ignorant bullshit about "whatever everyone believes they believe is true" because it doesn't change the truth based on what any of us believe. The truth is found in the word and without the guidance of the holy spirit you can't understand it. So pull your head out of where the sun don't shine.


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## JCS57 (Jun 13, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> there are many gods, along with counterfeit religions "based" off the bible. However, the bible interprets itself. all the symbolism and meanings within it are interpreted by itself, not the reader. I know it's hard to understand since all you ever did was go to church on sundays when god says he doesn't dwell in churches on that day. so keep spouting off your ignorant bullshit about "whatever everyone believes they believe is true" because it doesn't change the truth based on what any of us believe. The truth is found in the word and without the guidance of the holy spirit you can't understand it. So pull your head out of where the sun don't shine.


*First off you know nothing about me or my past beliefs all you know is they don't jive with yours so I'm full of bullshit. Try reading some history in actuall history books not the Bible. If the Bible interprets itself then why pray tell do we have not only mutually exclusive beliefs centered around the Bible but mutually exclusive interpretations from the same book. So while my head is actually out in the sunshine and yours is trapped between the pages of a book written by Iron Age goat herders for Iron Age goat herders I'll not respond to you further since most of your Biblical understanding comes from a place of prejudice, you know, I'm a true Christain anyone who doesn't believe like me is in a "counterfeit religion". Ask you friend about no true Scottsman.
Oh and by the way, truth is something you seek not something you simply believe in.
*


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 13, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *First off you know nothing about me or my past beliefs all you know is they don't jive with yours so I'm full of bullshit. Try reading some history in actuall history books not the Bible. If the Bible interprets itself then why pray tell do we have not only mutually exclusive beliefs centered around the Bible but mutually exclusive interpretations from the same book. So while my head is actually out in the sunshine and yours is trapped between the pages of a book written by Iron Age goat herders for Iron Age goat herders I'll not respond to you further since most of your Biblical understanding comes from a place of prejudice, you know, I'm a true Christain anyone who doesn't believe like me is in a "counterfeit religion". Ask you friend about no true Scottsman.
> Oh and by the way, truth is something you seek not something you simply believe in.*


Once again, the bible interprets itself and doesn't need me to tell you what "i believe". Anyone can say what they believe, but you've led by example that that can be totally fucked up. If you had really wholeheartedly dedicated yourself to knowing what god's word says, you would know all this and no one would have to tell you. That's how it's easy to tell you were just another sunday worshiper. No one who came to the knowledge of god would just turn his back on him and crucify jesus again. You would feel what it was like to have jesus up there on the cross dying when you know damn well it should be you up there. You were just another idiot in the crowd yelling "crucify him!" 

Truth is combined in pieces and must be put together like a puzzle, but you don't even see the big picture.


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## JCS57 (Jun 13, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Once again, the bible interprets itself and doesn't need me to tell you what "i believe". Anyone can say what they believe, but you've led by example that that can be totally fucked up. If you had really wholeheartedly dedicated yourself to knowing what god's word says, you would know all this and no one would have to tell you. That's how it's easy to tell you were just another sunday worshiper. No one who came to the knowledge of god would just turn his back on him and crucify jesus again. You would feel what it was like to have jesus up there on the cross dying when you know damn well it should be you up there. You were just another idiot in the crowd yelling "crucify him!"
> 
> Truth is combined in pieces and must be put together like a puzzle, but you don't even see the big picture.


*Like I said previously you know nothing of my journey and your continued use of the no true Scotsman fallacy puts you in the enviable position of being the only one true believer. Ask yourself this, if you were born to a poppy farmer in the middle of Afganistan what would your truth be then. If you don't know ask a Muslim. I think for you to see the big picture first you have understand that the picture you hold is one of but many. But since you can't lay down your prejudice truth for you is what agrees with you.*


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 13, 2016)

...hard to find facts..


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 13, 2016)

Video break!

*Irrefutable Proof of God*

https://m.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLXJ4dsU0oGMLFpoqxC5gLK4grEGqFt8oJ


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 14, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *Like I said previously you know nothing of my journey and your continued use of the no true Scotsman fallacy puts you in the enviable position of being the only one true believer. Ask yourself this, if you were born to a poppy farmer in the middle of Afganistan what would your truth be then. If you don't know ask a Muslim. I think for you to see the big picture first you have understand that the picture you hold is one of but many. But since you can't lay down your prejudice truth for you is what agrees with you.*


My truth? does 2+2=4? Is that true or is that my truth? Why is that so hard to understand?

You keep giving your opinions, but you continue to ignore the facts. The bible is a coded book that must be put together like a puzzle (didn't i already post this?), but all the parts in order to do this are within the book.

For instance: In daniel it talks about 4 world ruling kingdoms by a statue made of gold/silver/bronze/iron (and clay during the last 10 resurrections symbolized by the toes). Is it my truth to list those successive kingdoms as babylon, followed by median-persian, followed by greece, followed by rome? Or is that the truth no matter what either of us believes?

Is the sabbath on sunday? Or has saturday been the day of rest ever since god rested on the seventh day in genesis? Is that my truth, also?

Your whole reasoning of pointing the finger at me when all i have done is lead you to the word is just a way to never accept anything unless YOU believe it. 

You're biblically illiterate and it's obvious, it doesn't matter what you say about your journey. Now refute what the bible says, not just tell me what you believe is different from what i believe.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> there are many gods, along with counterfeit religions "based" off the bible. However, the bible interprets itself. all the symbolism and meanings within it are interpreted by itself, not the reader. I know it's hard to understand since all you ever did was go to church on sundays when god says he doesn't dwell in churches on that day. so keep spouting off your ignorant bullshit about "whatever everyone believes they believe is true" because it doesn't change the truth based on what any of us believe. The truth is found in the word and without the guidance of the holy spirit you can't understand it. So pull your head out of where the sun don't shine.


If you're such a student of the book, can you explain why there are so many contradictions in It?
How does the book interpret that?
It's supposed to be inspired by god, but it doesn't pass the smell test. 
You say that without the "guidance" of the "holy spirit", one can't glean the truth from it's pages. That's convenient lol.
I think you need to stop watching jack van impe, and come back to reality.
There is not one student of the bible who can survive a debate. Faith = delusion.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> My truth? does 2+2=4? Is that true or is that my truth? Why is that so hard to understand?
> 
> You keep giving your opinions, but you continue to ignore the facts. The bible is a coded book that must be put together like a puzzle (didn't i already post this?), but all the parts in order to do this are within the book.
> 
> ...


Delusion.
Nothing backs up that book, except maybe that book.
Your little puzzle is just a way to control the simple minded, and those still "asleep".
No real evidence of Abraham.
No real evidence of Moses.
No real evidence of Jesus.
NO CREATOR IN THE HEAVENS ABOVE
NO DEMONS IN THE VALLEY BELOW


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## JCS57 (Jun 14, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> My truth? does 2+2=4? Is that true or is that my truth? Why is that so hard to understand?
> 
> You keep giving your opinions, but you continue to ignore the facts. The bible is a coded book that must be put together like a puzzle (didn't i already post this?), but all the parts in order to do this are within the book.
> *
> ...





SamsonsRiddle said:


> My truth? does 2+2=4? Is that true or is that my truth? Why is that so hard to understand?
> *
> You're demonstrating the exact point I'm making. Anyone who reads the Bible can claim they have found the divine truth and anyone who fails to come to the same understanding as yourself is either a pretend Christian or some ignorant ass with an agenda. *
> 
> ...


*
Since I've made no reference to any Biblical passages nor have I quoted the Bible in anyway your conclusion on my Biblical literacy is based on what?
Refute what the Bible says? The Bible says what it says one can't refute that that's just plain silly. But rejecting some of what the Bible says as far as how we should live that's easy since pretty much everyone does it all the time. I have to believe you're purposely being obtuse here, since my aguement is that there are mutually exclusive religions and in Christianity there are mutually exclusive beliefs concerning the Bible and how it is read and how it should be understood and once again I thank you for proving that point.*


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## bird mcbride (Jun 14, 2016)

We humans built the Saturn V and went to the moon for one main reason...to prove that when the time comes to get off this rock we're gonna be able to do it. I call this, Devinne intervention. In other words God helps those that help themselves.

For the final out come that each one of us will have to face, the Creator God will be our only hope. If it ain't there you won't know it anyway  Neither will Jesus.


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## schnooby (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> Delusion.
> Nothing backs up that book, except maybe that book.
> Your little puzzle is just a way to control the simple minded, and those still "asleep".
> No real evidence of Abraham.
> ...



why are you here? Youre assertions are a priori and without any substantive support.....so how is what youre saying qualitatively better or different than what anyone else is saying?



and you speak of real evidence? what is real evidence? oh, yeah, what CERTAIN acceptable sources say....ah yes.....that.

did you know that in a court of law witness testimony is admissable? well, whether you like it or not, or whether you believe it or not, there are many witnesses to the life of Jesus, and the new testiment is written testimony of those witnesses.

Not only that......but the creator exists TODAY and there are witnesses TODAY of what God does in the lives of countless people. That is also witness testimony. 

I understand the profound doubt and skeptiicism people have, but people are not consistent in the application of their skepticism across all of lifes expriences and phenomena.....thats why i cant take seriously most off handed comments people like you make. You say theres no real evidence that people in the bible existed but the same could be said of so many people in history that unless you have an extremely robust unbiased standards and criteria to share with us ipl have to call your comments nothing more than typical christian bible bashing nonsense.....and that goes for the others who have commented in the same vein.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

schnooby said:


> why are you here? Youre assertions are a priori and without any substantive support.....so how is what youre saying qualitatively better or different than what anyone else is saying?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There were not any witnesses of Jesus.
All of the writings about him are rehashed tales.
I could show you, but I don't like coaching people to see what I want them to see. Kinda like how christians do...
The title of the thread shows why I'm here. It's mythology.
So get your panties out of a bunch, and don't try to act smart when trying to explain why fairy tales are real.
Was Zeus a real guy? I'm sure people used to say they saw him. And Poseidon. 
What about Horus? He's the original virgin birth son of god, who died only to rise on the 3rd day. People say they've seen all kinds of shit. People lie.
Just like the writers of the "gospels".
Intelligent people see through that book, usually after intensive study. So maybe you've never truly scoured that book, and that's why you're delusional. Is that it?


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## schnooby (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> There were not any witnesses of Jesus.
> All of the writings about him are rehashed tales.
> I could show you, but I don't like coaching people to see what I want them to see. Kinda like how christians do...
> The title of the thread shows why I'm here. It's mythology.
> ...



people who think and speak like you are a dime a dozen. Theres not an original thought to be found in anything youve submitted so far. You refuse to provide your definitions and standards that you apply to critical analysis so its impossible to take you seriously. All youve produced so far is baseless allegation with a generous helping of sarcasm and ad homs and numerous other horrible obvious departures from sound logic and reasoning.


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## JCS57 (Jun 14, 2016)

schnooby said:


> why are you here? Youre assertions are a priori and without any substantive support.....so how is what youre saying qualitatively better or different than what anyone else is saying?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyway you define priori (be honest) are you not standing exactly in the same spot?

Evidence no matter the source needs to be examined and decided upon by each individual we have the same evidence as you we just have a different conclusion. 

The problem with your witness premise is that cross examination in court is allowed. The people that may have known the Jesus person are long dead and personal revelation....lets just say cross examination would be brutal at best.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

schnooby said:


> people who think and speak like you are a dime a dozen. Theres not an original thought to be found in anything youve submitted so far. You refuse to provide your definitions and standards that you apply to critical analysis so its impossible to take you seriously. All youve produced so far is baseless allegation with a generous helping of sarcasm and ad homs and numerous other horrible obvious departures from sound logic and reasoning.


You MUST be a troll, you just described yourself, and all of the other whack jobs like you!
Sound logic and reasoning are what made me realize that it's all bullshit.
And through time, billions have come to the same conclusion as me. I'm not the first person to realize it's a myth.
The real joke is people like you.
No evidence proving god. No evidence of jesus or the others, yet you still think that stuff is real! 
You have presented no evidence proving anything. The bible is not proof of anything, it's a rule book for slaves, and the simple minded. Can you use sound logic and reasoning to explain away the contradictions that are throughout the bible?
Nope. You must feel the need to believe that there is something after life here on earth. Or, you may just believe because you've been indoctrinated for so long.
Who knows? Either way it's delusional.
Once you grow the courage to question your beliefs, you might find the truth.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

schnooby said:


> why are you here? Youre assertions are a priori and without any substantive support.....so how is what youre saying qualitatively better or different than what anyone else is saying?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Delusional people may believe god diverted the tornado, or made them call in sick when their work blew up. That does not constitute reliable testimony. That is delusion.
You have that going on too! Neat!


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> No evidence proving god. No evidence of jesus or the others, yet you still think that stuff is real!
> You have presented no evidence proving anything. The bible is not proof of anything, it's a rule book for slaves, and the simple minded.


Argument from Ignorance


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

New Age United said:


> Argument from Ignorance


What is ignorant about finding the truth? 
Is it ignorant to examine evidence as it is presented?
Is it ignorant to question everything, and come to your own conclusion?
No. It is ignorant to REJECT evidence. Like how christians ignore the contradictions of their "holy" book.


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> What is ignorant about finding the truth?
> Is it ignorant to examine evidence as it is presented?
> Is it ignorant to question everything, and come to your own conclusion?
> No. It is ignorant to REJECT evidence. Like how christians ignore the contradictions of their "holy" book.


No it is ignorant to assume something is false just bc there is no evidence to prove it is true; I am simply pointing out to you that this is not logical.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

Not logical? 
Lol
Ignorance is bliss...


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> Not logical?
> Lol
> Ignorance is bliss...


It is a logical fallacy to say "and you still believe this" after presuming that a lack of evidence has anything to do with whether it is true or false.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

New Age United said:


> It is a logical fallacy to say "and you still believe this" after presuming that a lack of evidence has anything to do with whether it is true or false.


Lol, a logical fallacy?
You are kidding, right?
A lack of evidence is what makes an argument/point fallacy, smart guy.
That makes all of the christian (among other religions) arguments fallacy.


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> Lol, a logical fallacy?
> You are kidding, right?
> A lack of evidence is what makes an argument/point fallacy, smart guy.
> That makes all of the christian (among other religions) arguments fallacy.


Can you please provide an example of an argument from the old testament the new testament or the Quran where there is a failing in logic? I don't recall too many arguments at all.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

New Age United said:


> Can you please provide an example of an argument from the old testament the new testament or the Quran where there is a failing in logic? I don't recall too many arguments at all.


The whole belief in myth is a failing in logic.


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> Lol, a logical fallacy?
> You are kidding, right?
> A lack of evidence is what makes an argument/point fallacy, smart guy.
> That makes all of the christian (among other religions) arguments fallacy.


If you want to boast about sound reaso


GardenGnome83 said:


> The whole belief in myth is a failing in logic.


No not necessarily, the fact is that the words of very wise men were recorded in all 3 of those texts. Just bc you do not understand the message does not mean it is false.

"Surely Allah is hearing; seeing, Knowing, nigh"
What the prophets were referring to as God was the true self (awareness)

Simply put: just bc you can not prove it is true does not make it false; can you see how that is not logical? Before you go boasting about sound reasoning and logic I would suggest you familiarize yourself with the logical fallacies, and make sure you look into the fallacy fallacy, just bc it is a fallacy does not mean it is false either.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

New Age United said:


> If you want to boast about sound reaso
> 
> No not necessarily, the fact is that the words of very wise men were recorded in all 3 of those texts. Just bc you do not understand the message does not mean it is false.
> 
> ...


I would suggest you look up the definition of fallacy, and delusion. 
While it may not mean something is false if it is fallacy, there is no proof it is true, and there is evidence to the contrary in the case of abrahamic religion. The shit don't add up. 
Show me why you think it is true please.
I bet you have nothing but faith, and that's as good as a pocket full o' turds.


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> I would suggest you look up the definition of fallacy, and delusion.
> While it may not mean something is false if it is fallacy, there is no proof it is true, and there is evidence to the contrary in the case of abrahamic religion. The shit don't add up.
> Show me why you think it is true please.
> I bet you have nothing but faith, and that's as good as a pocket full o' turds.


I could go on about how you are the light and how the earth is paradise and how time is an illusion and the Eternal Present is Eternity and all about how to live Eternal Life but I have a feeling peace and understanding is not for you. 

But besides all that shit you are shifting the burden of proof and expecting me to prove it true when originally it was you that was saying it was false, it is therefore your responsibility to prove it false not mine to prove it true. Maybe you already did come up with some solid arguments I haven't read the whole thread. "The point of an argument is not to win the argument it is to seek the truth" Plato. I am open to debating with you if you care to prove that Jesus was a myth.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

New Age United said:


> If you want to boast about sound reaso
> 
> No not necessarily, the fact is that the words of very wise men were recorded in all 3 of those texts. Just bc you do not understand the message does not mean it is false.
> 
> ...


The words of very wise men? 
In all 3 texts? I never knew!!!
Just kidding. How old is judaism? How old is christianity? How old is islam? That explains their words in 3 texts. Duh.
There is no logic in that. Quran copied torah copied old stories used to TRY to explain things, and control people.
What "allah" said doesn't count as evidence. Prove allah even exists.
Those words are myth, legend of old.


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> The words of very wise men?
> In all 3 texts? I never knew!!!
> Just kidding. How old is judaism? How old is christianity? How old is islam? That explains their words in 3 texts. Duh.
> There is no logic in that. Quran copied torah copied old stories used to TRY to explain things, and control people.
> ...


The idea of god just as all ideas are figments of the imagination, they exist only in the mind, however it is very easy to prove Allah is real; You are aware of these words and there meaning, that is all the proof you need to prove that you are real; Allah, the Light, Awareness. 

"If I err, I err only against my own soul, for in the Light i know Allah's will as my own will"


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 14, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *Since I've made no reference to any Biblical passages nor have I quoted the Bible in anyway your conclusion on my Biblical literacy is based on what?
> Refute what the Bible says? The Bible says what it says one can't refute that that's just plain silly. But rejecting some of what the Bible says as far as how we should live that's easy since pretty much everyone does it all the time. I have to believe you're purposely being obtuse here, since my aguement is that there are mutually exclusive religions and in Christianity there are mutually exclusive beliefs concerning the Bible and how it is read and how it should be understood and once again I thank you for proving that point.*


Can you be any more vague? And how could anyone not tell you are biblically illiterate if you think we get to interpret the bible?

If everyone got to interpret the bible their own way then it would be just people's opinions and their truth would die with them. There is absolute truth, whether you believe it or not, and it is revealed in the bible. But everything has to match together. 

So if i say the sabbath is on sunday, and try to prove it by the word, i will be found out as teaching a lie. There is just too much evidence to prove that is on saturday, and that's not "just what i believe." It is easily verifiable by earnest study of what god's word say. 

Just like most of the contradictions gnome's talking about; things are taken out of context and used in ways that just don't make sense. It's not my job to educate you on what the bible says or how to interpret it, but a little more study time may make you sound like you might know what you're talking about.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

New Age United said:


> I could go on about how you are the light and how the earth is paradise and how time is an illusion and the Eternal Present is Eternity and all about how to live Eternal Life but I have a feeling peace and understanding is not for you.
> 
> But besides all that shit you are shifting the burden of proof and expecting me to prove it true when originally it was you that was saying it was false, it is therefore your responsibility to prove it false not mine to prove it true. Maybe you already did come up with some solid arguments I haven't read the whole thread. "The point of an argument is not to win the argument it is to seek the truth" Plato. I am open to debating with you if you care to prove that Jesus was a myth.


I actually laughed when you quoted Plato!
The jesus of the bible is myth. This is basic knowledge if you care to actually look. There were plenty of people named Jesus back in the day, but no miracle workers. The likelihood of a man named jesus preaching in the area at that time is very high, and that may be the seed from which this myth grew.
I have plenty of info, but I would challenge you to look for yourself. That's the best way. I once believed. Very much. But my doubts grew louder.
Do you have doubts?


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## New Age United (Jun 14, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> I actually laughed when you quoted Plato!
> The jesus of the bible is myth. This is basic knowledge if you care to actually look. There were plenty of people named Jesus back in the day, but no miracle workers. The likelihood of a man named jesus preaching in the area at that time is very high, and that may be the seed from which this myth grew.
> I have plenty of info, but I would challenge you to look for yourself. That's the best way. I once believed. Very much. But my doubts grew louder.
> Do you have doubts?


I have much doubt about some of the writings but also a great intuition for the bits of truth and wisdom that the Scriptures contain. And yes I know that intuition is frequently wrong so yes I have doubts in my own beliefs. I never said that there wasn't myth in the bible just that there may be more truth than meets the eye, even if there is no empirical evidence.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 14, 2016)

New Age United said:


> I have much doubt about some of the writings but also a great intuition for the bits of truth and wisdom that the Scriptures contain. And yes I know that intuition is frequently wrong so yes I have doubts in my own beliefs. I never said that there wasn't myth in the bible just that there may be more truth than meets the eye, even if there is no empirical evidence.


There may be a few moral guidelines in there, but they are contradictory to other laws or rules in there.
It's all a mess. 
Nature is a force I can touch. It can be studied, and is real. There are forces and laws that dictate what occurs in nature. 
Nature makes me feel close to some kind of pleasing energy, which I think of as "god". That's likely endorphins and cannabis though lol.
I don't believe any god exists that controls all with thought. I believe chance rules the day. I just know that energy doesn't ever disappear, it just changes forms. 
I really hope that my conscience lives on, even if it is all a "movie". But if it is nothing, I guess I'll never know.
Myth accepted as reality makes people insane. Humans are violent, but I imagine a lot less killing if there were no religion.


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 14, 2016)

*How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity*

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/fictional_jesus.htm


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 14, 2016)

Probable existence..but we are blasphemous.


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## New Age United (Jun 15, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> There may be a few moral guidelines in there, but they are contradictory to other laws or rules in there.
> It's all a mess.
> Nature is a force I can touch. It can be studied, and is real. There are forces and laws that dictate what occurs in nature.
> Nature makes me feel close to some kind of pleasing energy, which I think of as "god". That's likely endorphins and cannabis though lol.
> ...


The dali lama said a couple years ago "now is the time for humanity to abandon religion". The dali lama is very enlightened.


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## schnooby (Jun 15, 2016)

New Age United said:


> The dali lama said a couple years ago "now is the time for humanity to abandon religion". The dali lama is very enlightened.



HA! and thats considered an enlightened statement eh? 

What would you say if i told you Jesus had said the same thing over 2000 years ago and that the lama is just a johnny come lately poseur?


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## New Age United (Jun 15, 2016)

schnooby said:


> HA! and thats considered an enlightened statement eh?
> 
> What would you say if i told you Jesus had said the same thing over 2000 years ago and that the lama is just a johnny come lately poseur?


"Do not start a religion after me" JC 
There is no reason why two enlightened men can't share and express the same view. The ego really likes to take one small trait and equate that with a person's entire being, it likes to label people and assume that by doing so it now has a firm grasp on who that person is, these perspectives are of course illusions and exist only in the mind.


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> Can you be any more vague? And how could anyone not tell you are biblically illiterate if you think we get to interpret the bible?
> 
> If everyone got to interpret the bible their own way then it would be just people's opinions and their truth would die with them. There is absolute truth, whether you believe it or not, and it is revealed in the bible. But everything has to match together.
> 
> ...


*
See your first sentence is where you go completely off the rails. You're trying to hold me accountable for what other people think, believe, and claim. I'm only repeating their claims you're attempting to kill the messenger (me) with the assumption that somehow what they believe will then somehow be discredited. If you would have been following along you would have seen that I had previously stated that's the problem people saying it says what it doesn't say or reading it literally and believing that it is literally factual, and should be followed as such. You don't believe we should stone bratty kids to death do you?
Again try to follow along. There are other religious beliefs that hold that they have the one and only truth and what you believe is false their claim is mutually exclusive same as yours in other words you both can't be right but you both could be wrong. Secondly this holds true for Christianity, certain denominations or sects hold that they have the only truth and others do not and thus these false Christians are condemned to hell. This is not a point of contention do some research these people think Catholics aren't Christian nor do they believe in interpretation the Bible says what it says full stop. 
As to your last paragraph I need to study more so I sound like I know what I'm talking about. Dude make you a deal, I'll study more just as soon as you learn reading comprehension. I haven't made any claims as to what the Bible says or what it doesn't say or what it means that isn't and hasn't been my argument even though you keep insinuating that it is.*


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> *How a Fictional Jesus Gave Rise to Christianity*
> 
> http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/fictional_jesus.htm


Nothing says Middle Eastern man like a white dude with light hair blue eyes.


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## schnooby (Jun 15, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *See your first sentence is where you go completely off the rails. You're trying to hold me accountable for what other people think, believe, and claim. I'm only repeating their claims you're attempting to kill the messenger (me) with the assumption that somehow what they believe will then somehow be discredited. If you would have been following along you would have seen that I had previously stated that's the problem people saying it says what it doesn't say or reading it literally and believing that it is literally factual, and should be followed as such. You don't believe we should stone bratty kids to death do you?
> Again try to follow along. There are other religious beliefs that hold that they have the one and only truth and what you believe is false their claim is mutually exclusive same as yours in other words you both can't be right but you both could be wrong. Secondly this holds true for Christianity, certain denominations or sects hold that they have the only truth and others do not and thus these false Christians are condemned to hell. This is not a point of contention do some research these people think Catholics aren't Christian nor do they believe in interpretation the Bible says what it says full stop.
> As to your last paragraph I need to study more so I sound like I know what I'm talking about. Dude make you a deal, I'll study more just as soon as you learn reading comprehension. I haven't made any claims as to what the Bible says or what it doesn't say or what it means that isn't and hasn't been my argument even though you keep insinuating that it is.*



youre doing the same thing youre accusing others of doing, namely trying to discredit something because of what other people believe or do. 

*"There are other religious beliefs that hold that they have the one and only truth and what you believe is false their claim is mutually exclusive same as yours in other words you both can't be right but you both could be wrong. Secondly this holds true for Christianity, certain denominations or sects hold that they have the only truth and others do not and thus these false Christians are condemned to hell"

*


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

schnooby said:


> HA! and thats considered an enlightened statement eh?
> 
> What would you say if i told you Jesus had said the same thing over 2000 years ago and that the lama is just a johnny come lately poseur?


There is proof of Dalai lama, only fables of jesus.
Christ of the bible is myth, get over it.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 15, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *See your first sentence is where you go completely off the rails. You're trying to hold me accountable for what other people think, believe, and claim. I'm only repeating their claims you're attempting to kill the messenger (me) with the assumption that somehow what they believe will then somehow be discredited. If you would have been following along you would have seen that I had previously stated that's the problem people saying it says what it doesn't say or reading it literally and believing that it is literally factual, and should be followed as such. You don't believe we should stone bratty kids to death do you?
> Again try to follow along. There are other religious beliefs that hold that they have the one and only truth and what you believe is false their claim is mutually exclusive same as yours in other words you both can't be right but you both could be wrong. Secondly this holds true for Christianity, certain denominations or sects hold that they have the only truth and others do not and thus these false Christians are condemned to hell. This is not a point of contention do some research these people think Catholics aren't Christian nor do they believe in interpretation the Bible says what it says full stop.
> As to your last paragraph I need to study more so I sound like I know what I'm talking about. Dude make you a deal, I'll study more just as soon as you learn reading comprehension. I haven't made any claims as to what the Bible says or what it doesn't say or what it means that isn't and hasn't been my argument even though you keep insinuating that it is.*


You must not have the whole book if you think we are supposed to stone kids. Remember when they got ready to stone the woman for committing adultery and jesus told them not to unless they were without sin? Then he told the lady to go and sin no more. The old testament was the discipline and the new testament explained forgiveness. So basically, if you take the WHOLE bible and stop taking parts out of context (as you did with the little stoned kids), then you won't sound like you don't have a clue what the word says. Like Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of god."

It should be taken literally, except in parts where it is using symbolism (such as in genesis when god creates light and darkness - using symbolism to describe righteousness and unrighteousness because he creates the sun and moon at a later verse). Here you go saying that's my belief again... However, a thorough examination of the scriptures shows that the things prophesied which came true always happened literally as they were said - not like some fairy tale with just words to allow your own imagination to take hold. The bible was to be taken literally as a whole book based on what Jesus said in the quote above, but denominations (catholics in particular) have chosen to pick and choose what they want to be true - without accepting what the bible says is true. This is another subject, but i'm sure you are going to say "Well who are you to say they are wrong?" The quote above, from Jesus, tells us how to do it and it's not based on what we believe but rather what the word says. Interpretation, once again, is done by the word and not the individual reading.

And as far as your last paragraph - then what is the stoning kids to death thing about? Sounds like you are insinuating a comprehension of the old testament above or equal to others, as well as saying it doesn't mean what it says (like you did before). I don't care about the messenger, all i care about is the truth being revealed to others who are actually open-minded enough to try to understand the bible without just going by what all these denominations (men) say.

"They come close to me with their words, but their hearts are far from me. They teach as doctrine the traditions of men."


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> You must not have the whole book if you think we are supposed to stone kids. Remember when they got ready to stone the woman for committing adultery and jesus told them not to unless they were without sin? Then he told the lady to go and sin no more. The old testament was the discipline and the new testament explained forgiveness. So basically, if you take the WHOLE bible and stop taking parts out of context (as you did with the little stoned kids), then you won't sound like you don't have a clue what the word says. Like Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of god."
> 
> It should be taken literally, except in parts where it is using symbolism (such as in genesis when god creates light and darkness - using symbolism to describe righteousness and unrighteousness because he creates the sun and moon at a later verse). Here you go saying that's my belief again... However, a thorough examination of the scriptures shows that the things prophesied which came true always happened literally as they were said - not like some fairy tale with just words to allow your own imagination to take hold. The bible was to be taken literally as a whole book based on what Jesus said in the quote above, but denominations (catholics in particular) have chosen to pick and choose what they want to be true - without accepting what the bible says is true. This is another subject, but i'm sure you are going to say "Well who are you to say they are wrong?" The quote above, from Jesus, tells us how to do it and it's not based on what we believe but rather what the word says. Interpretation, once again, is done by the word and not the individual reading.
> 
> ...


If the book is the unerring word of God, why contradict itself? Gods law is unchangeable, but it changes?
Right there is a big red flag.
"Prophecy" being played out in the bible?
Lol, the authors had a guideline right in front of them, nothing divine there.
You've been duped.


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## schnooby (Jun 15, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> If the book is the unerring word of God, why contradict itself? Gods law is unchangeable, but it changes?
> Right there is a big red flag.
> "Prophecy" being played out in the bible?
> Lol, the authors had a guideline right in front of them, nothing divine there.
> You've been duped.



please cite specific examples


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

schnooby said:


> please cite specific examples


Are you serious? 
I thought you knew the book? Lol, you should try to read it once. Don't cherry pick.
I'll be back with links, you silly person.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

schnooby said:


> please cite specific examples


infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/013/08/19/an-incredible-interactive-chart-of-biblical-contradictions
Here ya go. Take your time.
There is a site that can give you excuses for 143 of the contradictions out there too. I'm sure you would love it, as it ignores the fact that there IS a contradiction, while trying desperately to explain why it's there, and how it is good.


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> You must not have the whole book if you think we are supposed to stone kids. Remember when they got ready to stone the woman for committing adultery and jesus told them not to unless they were without sin? Then he told the lady to go and sin no more. The old testament was the discipline and the new testament explained forgiveness. So basically, if you take the WHOLE bible and stop taking parts out of context (as you did with the little stoned kids), then you won't sound like you don't have a clue what the word says. Like Jesus said, "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY word that proceeds from the mouth of god."
> 
> It should be taken literally, except in parts where it is using symbolism (such as in genesis when god creates light and darkness - using symbolism to describe righteousness and unrighteousness because he creates the sun and moon at a later verse). Here you go saying that's my belief again... However, a thorough examination of the scriptures shows that the things prophesied which came true always happened literally as they were said - not like some fairy tale with just words to allow your own imagination to take hold. The bible was to be taken literally as a whole book based on what Jesus said in the quote above, but denominations (catholics in particular) have chosen to pick and choose what they want to be true - without accepting what the bible says is true. This is another subject, but i'm sure you are going to say "Well who are you to say they are wrong?" The quote above, from Jesus, tells us how to do it and it's not based on what we believe but rather what the word says. Interpretation, once again, is done by the word and not the individual reading.
> 
> ...


*Alas this is useless and pointless. You keep singling out meaningless bullshit in order to ignore the context while bellowing everyone else is taking things out of context. Pot meet kettle.

All through the thread you have ignored all that I've said in order that you may defend against things I do not adhere. My point about stoning children was to show how foolish literal translation is an you once again jump on that as if it is the basis of what I'm saying. I'd call your responses nothing more than a straw man rebuttal but due to your lack of attention to detail it seems more of a learning disability.

You can proclaim all you want about what you believe concerning the Bible and how it should be read and understood but it still comes down to that is but your opinion which is one of many. The Bible doesn't have a instruction manual which says this is how you proceed. 

Since it is plausible you are not illiterate or that you don't have a learning disability and that you really are just being obtuse because you don't want to really address what I'm talking about let me help you.

To show that my argument is false and without standing this is all you have to do.

1) demonstrate that every religion concerning deities are all in complete harmony with no conflicting tenets, beliefs, or dogma.

2) demonstrate that every Christian denomination or sects beliefs on how to read and understand the Bible and what constitutes a true Christian are all in complete harmony with no conflicting beliefs, tenets, or dogma.

I won't hold my breath for a reasoned response since you have yet to address this after I've repeated it how many times. You keep thinking you have but all you've done is invent talking points I'm not addressing.*


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

schnooby said:


> please cite specific examples


Where did you go? Hmmm? 
I hope you're reading.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

http://bibviz.com/
Interactive chart concerning contradictions in the bible.
A while lot of them...


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

schnooby said:


> youre doing the same thing youre accusing others of doing, namely trying to discredit something because of what other people believe or do.
> 
> *"There are other religious beliefs that hold that they have the one and only truth and what you believe is false their claim is mutually exclusive same as yours in other words you both can't be right but you both could be wrong. Secondly this holds true for Christianity, certain denominations or sects hold that they have the only truth and others do not and thus these false Christians are condemned to hell"*


*
Another waving the hands and jumping up and down screaming don't look over there look over here. If you can't address the issue attempt to discredit the messenger. You like fallacies tell me which one that is. Nice try though but it doesn't discredit the point in any shape or fashion it just means you choose to ignor it to hammer on something else same as your buddy Samson.

Is your mind so closed that you cannot see this as a real issue do you truly believe that responses directed at me and not what I say magically make this go away? I thought you were all about open mindedness and self examination was all that just word salad to make yourself feel better about having closed yourself off to other possibilities? *


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
> www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/013/08/19/an-incredible-interactive-chart-of-biblical-contradictions
> Here ya go. Take your time.
> There is a site that can give you excuses for 143 of the contradictions out there too. I'm sure you would love it, as it ignores the fact that there IS a contradiction, while trying desperately to explain why it's there, and how it is good.


*
That doesn't work since all contradictions are simply misunderstanding or taken out of context. *


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *That doesn't work since all contradictions are simply misunderstanding or taken out of context. *


Lol
I love that excuse!


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *
> 1) demonstrate that every religion concerning deities are all in complete harmony with no conflicting tenets, beliefs, or dogma.
> 
> 2) demonstrate that every Christian denomination or sects beliefs on how to read and understand the Bible and what constitutes a true Christian are all in complete harmony with no conflicting beliefs, tenets, or dogma.*


*Add a third item to these other 2.

3) Why do beliefs/truths depend so much on who your parents are and where you were born and raised in other words geographical. How do the beliefs of one group substantiate or discredit the beliefs of others.*


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> Lol
> I love that excuse!


Hey you use what you got right?


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> Hey you use what you got right?


Yep.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 15, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html
> www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/013/08/19/an-incredible-interactive-chart-of-biblical-contradictions
> Here ya go. Take your time.
> There is a site that can give you excuses for 143 of the contradictions out there too. I'm sure you would love it, as it ignores the fact that there IS a contradiction, while trying desperately to explain why it's there, and how it is good.


lol, the first example on that patheos site it wrong.

According to the Book of Exodus, *Mount Sinai* (Hebrew: הר סיני, _Har Sinai_) is the mountain at which the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God. In the Book of Deuteronomy, these events are described as having transpired at Mount Horeb. The name "Sinai" is only used in the Torah by the Jahwist and Priestly source, whereas _Horeb_ is only used by the Elohist and Deuteronomist.[1] "Sinai" and "Horeb" are generally considered to refer to the same place, although there is a small body of opinion that the two names may refer to different locations.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 15, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> *Alas this is useless and pointless. You keep singling out meaningless bullshit in order to ignore the context while bellowing everyone else is taking things out of context. Pot meet kettle.
> 
> All through the thread you have ignored all that I've said in order that you may defend against things I do not adhere. My point about stoning children was to show how foolish literal translation is an you once again jump on that as if it is the basis of what I'm saying. I'd call your responses nothing more than a straw man rebuttal but due to your lack of attention to detail it seems more of a learning disability.
> 
> ...


i'm sorry, i thought you had an actual point to make.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> lol, the first example on that patheos site it wrong.
> 
> According to the Book of Exodus, *Mount Sinai* (Hebrew: הר סיני, _Har Sinai_) is the mountain at which the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God. In the Book of Deuteronomy, these events are described as having transpired at Mount Horeb. The name "Sinai" is only used in the Torah by the Jahwist and Priestly source, whereas _Horeb_ is only used by the Elohist and Deuteronomist.[1] "Sinai" and "Horeb" are generally considered to refer to the same place, although there is a small body of opinion that the two names may refer to different locations.


A small body of opinion?
It is a large body of opinion.
I figured you would make excuses for it.
What else did you find? All of those geniuses finding this stuff are no match for you!


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> lol, the first example on that patheos site it wrong.
> 
> According to the Book of Exodus, *Mount Sinai* (Hebrew: הר סיני, _Har Sinai_) is the mountain at which the Ten Commandments were given to Moses by God. In the Book of Deuteronomy, these events are described as having transpired at Mount Horeb. The name "Sinai" is only used in the Torah by the Jahwist and Priestly source, whereas _Horeb_ is only used by the Elohist and Deuteronomist.[1] "Sinai" and "Horeb" are generally considered to refer to the same place, although there is a small body of opinion that the two names may refer to different locations.


By the way, you couldn't pick a weaker straw to grasp.
Pathetic.


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> i'm sorry, i thought you had an actual point to make.


I do apologize for using you to help demonstrate my arguments, but hey it wasn't like you were unwilling. I get it you're used to arguing over context and how and when to interpret the Bible but that is and always will be a dead end. I'll leave you to continue your fight against the evil straw men you find so compelling to rail against may those evil buggers fall before you.


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## JCS57 (Jun 15, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> By the way, you couldn't pick a weaker straw to grasp.
> Pathetic.


Straw it's his thing just accept it for what it is. I have a granddaughter who's partial to a particular pillow, it's harmless they grow out of it.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 15, 2016)

JCS57 said:


> Straw it's his thing just accept it for what it is. I have a granddaughter who's partial to a particular pillow, it's harmless they grow out of it.


Like the tooth fairy, or Santa?
Wait, wasn't St. Nick real???


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 16, 2016)

Jesus Christ is real...just one of them mysteries...like Tupac is still alive...


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## Pah (Jun 16, 2016)

Anyone cover Evil,Freewill and Predestination yet? Break out the Hume quote and have at it. Lol
Remember, God is omnipotent,omnipresent, omniscient and all loving.

“Epicurus's old questions are still unanswered: Is he (God) willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? then whence evil?”

Arguing whether or not Jesus existed is rediculous. Was he God in the flesh,part of a triune diety? An asshole who upset the apple cart wherever he went?


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## schnooby (Jun 16, 2016)

Ok all kidding aside honest question here for jc and gg etc....


what is the reason why you are here.......is it to merely engage in argument for sport.....or because you are genuinely interested in information that could change your minds?


ill tell you what i THINK as a mere mortal. 
i think you are both fairly entrenched unbelievers who enjoy stirring shit up. And guess what, thats totally okay with because i enjoy it too.

however, lets not conflate honest truth seeking with playful or even mean spirited debate for its own sake. What the two of you are doing, the way you portray yourselves, and indeed, even by your own admission you were (in jcs case) a former xian and appear to have really already made up your own mind(s) about this stuff. If thats true then all conversation here is really no more than intellectual masturbation and some verbal jousting.

I need to ask how you can honestly expect anyone to take you seriously when you make it obvious youre not interested in believing. Youre very approach dooms anything other than wholehearted commitment to failure. You are looking for reasons to doubt, not reasons to believe. I dare say if you subjected many of lifes experiences to the same nihilistic attitude you would never have any meaningful relationships or experiences, constantly searching for every crumb or hint of incongruity. Almost no situation in life can bear such artificially exacting scrutiny.

Be that as it may, if you find yourself unable to come correct with what really drives you and brings you here, i am more than willing to joust with you and in time show what nonsense most if not all of your contradictions are.

And that leads me to another thing.....dont be such a lazy oaf merely copying and pasting other peoples works expecting me to address each one of the misapprehensions of scripture. Half the time those who hqve assembled those lists havent done any real scholarly research, instead picking verses about troops counts in one book that dont match those in another and so on......been there done that.

If you have any REAL questions lets have them, but my time is too valuable to go debunking websites you scattershot out your driveby window.


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 16, 2016)

schnooby said:


> please cite specific examples


Have at it.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 16, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Ok all kidding aside honest question here for jc and gg etc....
> 
> 
> what is the reason why you are here.......is it to merely engage in argument for sport.....or because you are genuinely interested in information that could change your minds?
> ...


I challenge that.
My desire to believe brought me here!
I hope heaven is real. I really do, but I'm pretty confident hell is not, and there is no god controlling anything. 
Oh well, now I spread the truth. 
It's only fair, if people get to preach myth as truth, I get to counter it.
I would love for you to try to explain the contradictions!
And I'm not going to type everything in my mind. I'll copy and paste all I want. That's what the bibles authors did, why can't I?
You are pretty full of it if you think you can explain away contradictions in the bible.
I'll wait here.
Explain rapists.
Explain murderers.
Explain child molesters.
Explain why God would drown everyone but one family, when he is love.
Explain the tornado that destroys every house in an extremely Christian town.
Explain that shit, and maybe I'll have time to listen to your bullshit.
Until then, it's all bullshit.
And don't say it's "god's will", that doesn't count.


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## schnooby (Jun 16, 2016)

Pah said:


> Anyone cover Evil,Freewill and Predestination yet? Break out the Hume quote and have at it. Lol
> Remember, God is omnipotent,omnipresent, omniscient and all loving.
> 
> “Epicurus's old questions are still unanswered: Is he (God) willing to prevent evil, but not able? then he is impotent. Is he able, but not willing? then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? then whence evil?”
> ...



Lets take that example of God preventing or not preventing evil. First the premise is flawed because it forces a choice between only 3 options, and overly simplistic ones at that. Most rational people would never stand for such an ill conceived characterization of human behavior for we know the complexity and nuance to life can be bewildering where behavior in one context would be appropriate but not in another.

an example.

Youre child is learning how to walk. For a while you help, but then, as the child grows in skill and confidence you gradually begin letting go. You do this not wondering, but knowing your child will fall and probably hurt itself at some point. In some cases you reach out and steady the child, other times you let them fall. Are you evil because in some cases you act and in others you dont? Does not the arc of human experience require a variable approach to many things which may even seem the same in nature or character? Why to keep your child from falling one time, and let it fall the other?

Its a simplified example of course, but the principle contained iis applicable. The bible says we are here because our first parents broke cosmic law and there had to be consequences. the consequence was separation and death. There is also the role of satan to consider. So many people get the god questions wrong because they act as if its all about god and not about his arch enemy as well. Ephesians 6:12 we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities against powers against the rulers of this world and against spiritual wickedness in high places...."

that is a spiritual war it is talking about.

so maybe if one is going to ask about why god doesnt prevent evil things from happening, maybe it would be wise to start with ALL the salient facts that the question is presumably predicated upon, but often askew, namely,if we assume theres a god according to the bible, then it would be inconsistent to not include the biblical account of the devil as well.......an alien life form who was with the creator in "heaven" and who rebelled and was cast to earth.

One simply cannot have a legitimate conversation about certain questions if one leaves our critical components of the narrative which practically answer every question skeptics of bible theology have.


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 16, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> You must not have the whole book if you think we are supposed to stone kids. Remember when they got ready to stone the woman for committing adultery and jesus told them not to unless they were without sin? Then he told the lady to go and sin no more. The old testament was the discipline and the new testament explained forgiveness.


The woman caught in adultery is a centuries later interpolation. It does not appear in early manuscripts, or mentioned by early church fathers.

"[The earliest manuscripts and many other ancient witnesses do not have John 7:53—8:11. A few manuscripts include these verses, wholly or in part, after John 7:36, John 21:25, Luke 21:38 or Luke 24:53.]"

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John 7:53-8:11&version=NIV

As for the rest of your meandering. You are being driven by the Holy Dopamine Ghost. In other words by believing you release FEEL GOOD neurochemicals that make ancient ignorant people's nonsense make total sense to you. Worst of all these same neurochemicals strengthens network connections the same way it does any other addict.

People can talk logic, reason, show you the facts that you are wrong, and you will never see it just like a true addict.

The day the human race actually becomes humble, is the day it admits they are evolved mutated crazy apes. Then goes on stopping acting like it by throwing away fairy tales treated as reality.


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## SamsonsRiddle (Jun 16, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Lets take that example of God preventing or not preventing evil. First the premise is flawed because it forces a choice between only 3 options, and overly simplistic ones at that. Most rational people would never stand for such an ill conceived characterization of human behavior for we know the complexity and nuance to life can be bewildering where behavior in one context would be appropriate but not in another.
> 
> an example.
> 
> ...


These people can't even figure out whether there is a god or not, so them trying to understanding spiritual things like principalities and powers is like a baby trying to understand basic algebra. Instead of trying to find out what the word of god is all about for themselves, they use poorly researched websites and everything other than the bible to try to understand it. 

Think about it. The pharisees and sadducees were very in tune to the scriptures, but they couldn't even figure out what god was trying to tell them through jesus (should i enter into my mother's womb and be born again when i am so old? - nicodemus the leader of the pharisees). And remember, Jesus said he was only speaking of earthly things there and they couldn't handle if he spoke of spiritual things. Remember when Jesus said he was coming back, would he find faith? that means faith is going to be dead by time he gets back; i'm sure you can see the hopelessness of this world.

It seems most studies end up leading us to the part where it says that god's true children will only be a small flock during this age. Narrow is the path we walk, but when Jesus returns to whole world is going to mourn. Thank god we only have to face death once, and will be resurrected into our spiritual bodies for the 1,000 year reign while satan is locked up. That is if we hold strong until the end.


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 16, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Lets take that example of God preventing or not preventing evil. First the premise is flawed because it forces a choice between only 3 options, and overly simplistic ones at that. Most rational people would never stand for such an ill conceived characterization of human behavior for we know the complexity and nuance to life can be bewildering where behavior in one context would be appropriate but not in another.
> 
> an example.
> 
> ...


Do not forget that the Bible prophesied the Moon landing hoax. There's no way NASA can make a rocket that can pierce through the molten glass dome (firmament which the sun, moon, and stars are set in) that holds back the ocean above (blue sky).

Bible for the win.







Do not fooled by people that took a philosophy class, and think they can win arguments with it.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 16, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> These people can't even figure out whether there is a god or not, so them trying to understanding spiritual things like principalities and powers is like a baby trying to understand basic algebra. Instead of trying to find out what the word of god is all about for themselves, they use poorly researched websites and everything other than the bible to try to understand it.
> 
> Think about it. The pharisees and sadducees were very in tune to the scriptures, but they couldn't even figure out what god was trying to tell them through jesus (should i enter into my mother's womb and be born again when i am so old? - nicodemus the leader of the pharisees). And remember, Jesus said he was only speaking of earthly things there and they couldn't handle if he spoke of spiritual things. Remember when Jesus said he was coming back, would he find faith? that means faith is going to be dead by time he gets back; i'm sure you can see the hopelessness of this world.
> 
> It seems most studies end up leading us to the part where it says that god's true children will only be a small flock during this age. Narrow is the path we walk, but when Jesus returns to whole world is going to mourn. Thank god we only have to face death once, and will be resurrected into our spiritual bodies for the 1,000 year reign while satan is locked up. That is if we hold strong until the end.


Lol, have fun waiting for jesus. He's not coming back, because he was never here.
Your delusion is psychiatric, but you don't care do you?


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 16, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> These people can't even figure out whether there is a god or not, so them trying to understanding spiritual things like principalities and powers is like a baby trying to understand basic algebra. Instead of trying to find out what the word of god is all about for themselves, they use poorly researched websites and everything other than the bible to try to understand it.
> 
> Think about it. The pharisees and sadducees were very in tune to the scriptures, but they couldn't even figure out what god was trying to tell them through jesus (should i enter into my mother's womb and be born again when i am so old? - nicodemus the leader of the pharisees). And remember, Jesus said he was only speaking of earthly things there and they couldn't handle if he spoke of spiritual things. Remember when Jesus said he was coming back, would he find faith? that means faith is going to be dead by time he gets back; i'm sure you can see the hopelessness of this world.
> 
> It seems most studies end up leading us to the part where it says that god's true children will only be a small flock during this age. Narrow is the path we walk, but when Jesus returns to whole world is going to mourn. Thank god we only have to face death once, and will be resurrected into our spiritual bodies for the 1,000 year reign while satan is locked up. That is if we hold strong until the end.


Just read Leviticus 14. Then I can tell you what it really means, and not through your Holy Dopamine Ghost blinders.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14&version=RSV


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## GardenGnome83 (Jun 16, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Just read Leviticus 14. Then I can tell you what it really means, and not through your Holy Dopamine Ghost blinders.
> 
> https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+14&version=RSV


Holy dopamine ghost binders lol
I love it!


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 16, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> Lol, have fun waiting for jesus. He's not coming back, because he was never here.
> Your delusion is psychiatric, but you don't care do you?


Try talking sense to an alcoholic, or a gambler. It's the same neurology behind God belief addiction.


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## R1b3n4 (Jun 16, 2016)




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## Pah (Jun 16, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Lets take that example of God preventing or not preventing evil. First the premise is flawed because it forces a choice between only 3 options, and overly simplistic ones at that. Most rational people would never stand for such an ill conceived characterization of human behavior for we know the complexity and nuance to life can be bewildering where behavior in one context would be appropriate but not in another.
> 
> an example.
> 
> ...


So,the devil? Did Satan surprise god? Can god be surprised? Then,whence evil?


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## Pah (Jun 16, 2016)

SamsonsRiddle said:


> These people can't even figure out whether there is a god or not, so them trying to understanding spiritual things like principalities and powers is like a baby trying to understand basic algebra. Instead of trying to find out what the word of god is all about for themselves, they use poorly researched websites and everything other than the bible to try to understand it.
> 
> Think about it. The pharisees and sadducees were very in tune to the scriptures, but they couldn't even figure out what god was trying to tell them through jesus (should i enter into my mother's womb and be born again when i am so old? - nicodemus the leader of the pharisees). And remember, Jesus said he was only speaking of earthly things there and they couldn't handle if he spoke of spiritual things. Remember when Jesus said he was coming back, would he find faith? that means faith is going to be dead by time he gets back; i'm sure you can see the hopelessness of this world.
> 
> It seems most studies end up leading us to the part where it says that god's true children will only be a small flock during this age. Narrow is the path we walk, but when Jesus returns to whole world is going to mourn. Thank god we only have to face death once, and will be resurrected into our spiritual bodies for the 1,000 year reign while satan is locked up. That is if we hold strong until the end.


Is it that the Sadducees and Pharisees didn't understand their own writings or were they prevented from understanding by the same God that promised everlasting fealty to them and their seed forever?


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## schnooby (Jun 17, 2016)

Pah said:


> So,the devil? Did Satan surprise god? Can god be surprised? Then,whence evil?


your question, dripping with contempt and sarcasm poisons the well of discussion, or can you not see that?

i feel like im talking to rebellious teenagers who are locked in the throes of raging hormones and imbalanced neurochemistry.

Argumentation 101: in order to have a legitimate argument you must concede the possibility you are wrong. You must also stipulate to the premises which support the thesis At least these two things even just to get started. 

And that ladies and gentlemen is why you cannot have satisfactory answers, because you start with warped, incorrect, outlandish, ignorant and naive premises. If you begin a thesis for the sake of argument, it cannot BE a real argument if your premise is missing half the information to make it a well crafted, legitimate premise. Your conclusions will always be wrong because you start with incorrect premises, distortions of the subject or related attributes etc.....or because you start with the conclusion and reason backwards finding reasons to support your premature conclusion ( god must be evil because he lets people suffer when he could intervene etc...)

For these reasons and more i find arguments put forward by people like you guys to be wanting because one way or the other you always seem to start out with some assumptions which destroy any chance you could find fhe truth. 

For example.....the problem of evil.

The answer to this "problem" is remarkably easy to arrive at if and only if you start with some basic assumptions the bible provides with little effort to the researcher.

In Revelation 12:7 It says there was war in heaven and that lucifer and a third of the angels who were loyal to him were cast out.

No question pertaining to the problem of evil is properly answered without including this information. The bible clearly describes the problems of lucifer before his eventual banishment from Gods presence. Ezekiel 28 and Isaiah 14 both talk about this development of rebellion.

Now, many ask, if god is all this or that why did he allow lucifer to rebel, why not just wipe him out of existence immediately, etc......

The answer again is simple, though perhaps hard to accept. The creator is a being unlike anything we know and often does things we cannot understand or seem unreasonable or cruel to us. if god knew sin or rebellion was growing in the heart and mind of the most powerful being next to himself, why risk the untold sorrow that would follow? why not quench it immediately and spare billions upon billions of people from the darkest sorrow and misery we could imagine? 

its a good question, a reasonable question.

What if the answer to that question hinges entirely upon a weird quality that exists only in the most advanced beings, the ability to choose, to exercise will, autonomy, and self determination? What if in order for love, friendship, genuine spontaneity, surprise, creativity, imagination and similarly serendipitous qualities to exist you HAD to allow for the possibility that the x factor, the dark flipside of free will would or could find fascination with chaos, with a path not in accordance with the design or exiistence of cosmic law? 

essentially what sin is, is a departure from the built in operating system of all matter which prescribes certain conditions in order for life and existence to be maintained. With the unique power of free will, which matter does not have, which only advanced beings have, we have the ability to "turn aside" from the prescribed behavior that serves existence. Its drinking gasoline instead of water, its breathing smoke instead of air, its jumping off a building when you cannot fly, its the madness of the self directed mind which chooses a path other than the one nature, physics prescribes for the perpetuation of life. 

The creator is the source of life just as food is. We will die without food....we spiritually die without the creator. Satan chose to turn away from the creator.......the source of all......the fount of eternal life and existence.....and he became absorbed with self. Even modern psychologists will tell you that being self absorbed is a spiral downward to self destruction. Even athiests recognize the value of selfless giving and service to others. All of nature exists not unto itself, but that it may minister to some other form of life. Humans have defied nature and natures god.....by persistently growing inward towards self, to the detriment not only of self but all those which could have been ministered to.

Those skeptics of you need to really ask yourselves if its really the truth you want or a truth which is more palatable and doesnt require anything of you. I believe many people turn away from even seeking the truth because they intuit that it will require a conscientious change in their lives........a commitment to a moral standard. Its not lost on many of us believers that there is a very strong attraction to world views which are basically ala carte believe whatever you want, you are god, your truth is the only truth, etc........moral relativism. As for me i have often wished the norse legends were real and that i could die in battle and go to the happy hunting grounds afterwards


theres a quote from fight club that i really like because it deals directly with the bitternesss of truth and challenges people to accept it even if they dont like it.


You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you, never wanted you, in all probability he hates you. It's not the worst thing that could happen.

What IF the answer you claim you want just really sucks? What if it doesnt scratch where it itches? What if you were able to cross the threshhold of belief and once youre there you find theres a thousand more questions after than before? what if believing only makes your existential pain and suffering worse?

Believing is no great thing, gents, its practically crawling before walking and its really no big deal as the bible says


You believe that there is one God. That's fine! Even the demons believe that and tremble with fear. 
James 2:19


So hey guys, its been great but until i see the remotest evidence of a genuine question that doesnt reek of contempt and sarcasm its simply not worth my time.


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## JCS57 (Jun 17, 2016)

GardenGnome83 said:


> Like the tooth fairy, or Santa?
> Wait, wasn't St. Nick real???


And don't forget according Megyn Kelly of Fox Noise Santa is white guy.


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## JCS57 (Jun 17, 2016)

schnooby said:


> Ok all kidding aside honest question here for jc and gg etc....
> 
> 
> what is the reason why you are here.......is it to merely engage in argument for sport.....or because you are genuinely interested in information that could change your minds?
> ...


*One at a time. First off where are you referring to when you say here? If you mean rollitup because it's filled with great info from really good growers. If you mean this thread, because it deals with questioning a mythology I at one time embraced completely without question. As to changing my mind in what way? I've already explained that I've changed my mind and why I changed my mind. Are you really sitting there thinking you have some new information that could profoundly alter my position that I haven't all ready considered? If so let's see it, I'm always ready for possibility that my mind could change once again if the evidence is sound and not some rehash of the nonsense that has come before. Your second paragraph is just more posturing nothing to comment on.

Third paragraph just substitute your initials and direct your response at yourself in other words look in the mirror. I keep waiting to some sort of answer on what I've asked how many times and all you keep doing is attacking the messenger while completely ignoring the question. But I digress its me that's closed off the mind and have cemented my position. 

Your fourth paragraph is a hoot. Since this thread wasn't about joining up again I ask what are you doing here? The rest of the paragraph is just more ad hominem ignor the questions attack the questioner.

The fifth is just more evasive posturing. If you can't explain it just pretend it wasn't brought up or it wasn't worth answering because you believe the question wasn't an honest question. Hey it was honest enough for me I CHANGED my mind due to that question.

The rest isn't worth responding to since at this juncture it's pretty obvious who has closed off their mind. The last sentence is exactly what I've been bringing up over and over your the arbiter of truth and the arbiter of what is a real question. Sorry but I won't bite anymore you're a pretentious phony.*


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 22, 2016)

..that's why you always see me chilling with Moses.


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## Rrog (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm sure Christians are right and the rest of the planet is wrong. The rest of them go straight to hell.

And we're talking the chosen Jews, too.

Seems very kind and loving to me.

Oh and I'm always affected when people post in completely *bold* or CAPITALIZED fonts. I figure it means the author is really really sure of his facts when he does this.


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## Hazy_Nights.DC (Jun 22, 2016)

World End...not even a million saved..


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## Rrog (Jun 22, 2016)

Does not seem efficient for a god, so... maybe that's not really how the universe works.


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## JCS57 (Jun 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I'm sure Christians are right and the rest of the planet is wrong. The rest of them go straight to hell.
> 
> And we're talking the chosen Jews, too.
> 
> ...


*I started using the bold feature because my eyesight sucks it allows me to proofread far faster than otherwise would be possible*


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## Rrog (Jun 22, 2016)

You're likely going blind whacking off on your plants as shown in your avatar.

Sorry, had to go for the joke. Sorry to hear about your eyesight, for sure. That would be more than a drag after a while. By all means, *bold that shit.*


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## R1b3n4 (Jun 22, 2016)




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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 22, 2016)

I'm just baffled that people think they can convince others, anything.
that's why I stopped poking fun at y'all.
I mean it's not like there is going to be a moment of clarity and someone is gonna say "eureka! I GET IT"
so anyways..
I just started dating this chick, and got a picture for you guys..
tell me what you think..
something about her face is just not right...
She makes up for it by the best blowjobs though.

whaddayathink fellas??
she's hot eh?
I sorta think that's a good argument against god right there... I mean if I were omnipotent I surely wouldn't create THAT.


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## JCS57 (Jun 22, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I'm just baffled that people think they can convince others, anything.
> that's why I stopped poking fun at y'all.
> I mean it's not like there is going to be a moment of clarity and someone is gonna say "eureka! I GET IT"
> so anyways..
> ...


Isn't that the Virgin Mary? Would certainly explain a few things. A face only a god could fuck.


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## bgmike8 (Jun 23, 2016)

R1b3n4 said:


> View attachment 3714540


Lmao. Pic stolen


What do you guys think about zeitgeist?


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## Dalek Supreme (Jun 24, 2016)

bgmike8 said:


> What do you guys think about zeitgeist?


The religion segment of Zeitgeist?

If so? It's mainly bad scholarship from the 18th century that was rehashed without checking the facts.

The main culprit was Acharya S aka DM Murdoch. 

The silly part is all these deities claimed to be born on December 25. It's not true besides the date was a much later church tradition. Acharya would receive a lot of flack for that. Ironically she died December 25 from brain cancer.


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## Tektek (Jul 20, 2016)

schnooby said:


> your question, dripping with contempt and sarcasm poisons the well of discussion, or can you not see that?
> 
> i feel like im talking to rebellious teenagers who are locked in the throes of raging hormones and imbalanced neurochemistry.
> 
> ...


What??
It's 2016, you need deprogramming. 
Evil is not a real thing, just pretend to scare the ignorant masses. 
People do things we can describe as evil or bad or whatever.


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## GardenGnome83 (Jul 21, 2016)

schnooby said:


> your question, dripping with contempt and sarcasm poisons the well of discussion, or can you not see that?
> 
> i feel like im talking to rebellious teenagers who are locked in the throes of raging hormones and imbalanced neurochemistry.
> 
> ...


Lol, you are a joke! Don't have time? You wrote a book!
And you can't use ancient books as evidence. Especially when you can't prove they are from god!
You have failed to convince anyone. You need a little depth in your mind...


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## Az-uar Iam (Aug 18, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


> Cool, and awesome question.
> 
> When I was a kid I believed in Lake Monsters. Then over time I saw not only the evidence did not fit, but most importantly "I wanted to believe" which was holding me back from seeing truth.
> 
> ...


That's our problem. We think knowing is enough, but what do we understand?


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## primabudda (Aug 18, 2016)

all bullshit, the dude who wrote genesis didn't even know where the sun went at night, case closed !!!!!! 





But seriously idk, maybe jesus was one of those crazy guys everyone knows. 


and his powers was just early religious blindness from his followers on twitter, yea i seen him on twitter !! there's tons of them, maybe he was one these kind of people. 


Maybe we are all alone !! but with with weed ha ha !!


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## R1b3n4 (Aug 18, 2016)




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## Dalek Supreme (Aug 18, 2016)

Az-uar Iam said:


> That's our problem. We think knowing is enough, but what do we understand?


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## Az-uar Iam (Aug 18, 2016)

Dalek Supreme said:


>


I have grasped the Universe, & it gave me a glimpse of what it really is. You're explaining a lot without saying anything. I say NOTHING, which if you really looked it is the key to being able to see.


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## Dalek Supreme (Aug 18, 2016)

Az-uar Iam said:


> I have grasped the Universe, & it gave me a glimpse of what it really is. You're explaining a lot without saying anything. I say NOTHING, which if you really looked it is the key to being able to see.


Evolved mutated crazy ape said what?


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## primabudda (Aug 18, 2016)

R1b3n4 said:


> View attachment 3760372


wow yeah, that could be true.


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## Padawanbater2 (Aug 20, 2016)

Religion endures because it's comforting in a world filled with darkness and dispair


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## Dalek Supreme (Aug 20, 2016)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Religion endures because it's comforting in a world filled with darkness and dispair


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## BlessedBeyond (Aug 24, 2016)

The grateful dead and music festival scene "peacelovehappiness" is the true myth.
Pure deception.


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