# Cloning from mothers vs. cloning from vegging plants HELP...



## Pooters (Oct 14, 2010)

I have always liked cloning and have done both in the past but only would clone from a vegging plant to get a mother every once and awhile. I would always keep mother plants to supply my room because I read some years back that potency and yield decrease as you keep cloning down the line of clones. Is there any truth to this? A clone is supposed to be identical to the host??? I am constructing a grow space and would like to do some what of a perpetual cycle but would like to save space and energy not housing mothers. So from those that do one or the other, or have done both I would like to hear your thoughts.


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## golddog (Oct 14, 2010)

I take my clones from flowering plants at least 2 weeks into flower (sometimes 3 or 4).

After they have rooted, I veg them under a small floro until they go into my veg box. My veg box is a footlocker with 4 CFL's and 2 20 watt floro's (if I need them) I have 2 computer fans (intake & exhaust) for air flow.

When I harvest from the grow box, I throw in the vegging plants, maybe a week or so (as I transplant them), then 12/12.

Right Now I have (indoors) 5 Blue Dreams and 4 Bubba Kush (10 weeks?) going crazy, I also have 5 rooted Blue Dreams and 5 rooted Bubba's, and 6 yet to show roots.

Not Perpetual, but close.


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## Pooters (Oct 14, 2010)

The more I think about it I think I am going to take clones from my begging or flowering plants and cycle them like that. I say some what perpetual because I plan on going with 2 600 watt lights 9 -16 plantsu under each light. So every 4-5 weeks I harvest 9-16 plants depending on strain. Hay golddog or anyone else that has an option this is a little off topic but I don't know if ur doing soil or hydro but I am doing soil or soilles mix but was wondering what are the best organic nutrients that don't have two many parts? I would like to have one res and can water all plants in the flowering room regardless of what stage of growth week they are in. Just another attempt to save some space if possible but if it is better for my harvest to use a multi parts product I will.


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## 9867mike777 (Oct 14, 2010)

I don't think clones deteriorate from one generation to the next. It is exact copies, because it_ is _the same plant as the first one, just like you say. It is more digital copying, nothing like an analog Xerox copy machine, where variations can enter the equation. What might happen is an old mother plant might be more exposed to pests just because of the longevity of life. This might cause grow room problems.


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## jesus of Cannabis (Oct 14, 2010)

i have a perpetual grow of 6 plants every other month starting next month...finally ::


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## Pooters (Oct 14, 2010)

It is official no mother plants for me. Now I don't need to get another vegg light. Now I just need to decide on a strain for down the road. I am going to start with these black jack beans I have had for a a month or two. And find a good organic fertilizer. I have done synthetic but don't want to deal with salt build up, burning and so I won't need to flush so much just the last two weeks.


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## reggaerican (Oct 14, 2010)

i hear alot of talk over this topic and i cant say what is better... i have done both but never side by side...

if you ask me i think there is no difference...


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## Pooters (Oct 16, 2010)

Much thanks guys.


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## sparkjumper (Oct 17, 2010)

I like to take cuts from near the bottom/bottom middle from the vegging plants and put them under a 12/12 cycle right after taking cuts.I will take a cut thats been under 12/12 for 3 or 4 days,but not much longer than that.If you take cuts at 10 days-2 weeks your cuts will contain pistils you can be sure.And people that have grown clones for awhile know pistiless veg cuts lead to the best outcome.Thats because they are growing nothing but green foliage and growtips,especially when you hit them with some nitrogen.On the other hand,a clone the same size but with many pistils will continue to use a great deal of its energy producing more pistils.Bottom line..you dont want a sexually mature clones unless you plan on flowering right away.I normally veg my cuts several weeks until they look like beanstalks lol I like um big and I have the headroom.I hope some of you understood what I am trying to say about pistilled and pistless clones


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## golddog (Oct 17, 2010)

sparkjumper said:


> I like to take cuts from near the bottom/bottom middle from the vegging plants and put them under a 12/12 cycle right after taking cuts.I will take a cut thats been under 12/12 for 3 or 4 days,but not much longer than that.If you take cuts at 10 days-2 weeks your cuts will contain pistils you can be sure.And people that have grown clones for awhile know pistiless veg cuts lead to the best outcome.Thats because they are growing nothing but green foliage and growtips,especially when you hit them with some nitrogen.On the other hand,a clone the same size but with many pistils will continue to use a great deal of its energy producing more pistils.Bottom line..you dont want a sexually mature clones unless you plan on flowering right away.I normally veg my cuts several weeks until they look like beanstalks lol I like um big and I have the headroom.I hope some of you understood what I am trying to say about pistilled and pistless clones


It is easier to take clones from vegging plants, but not necessary.

You get much bushier clones when taken from flowering plants, they just take a little longer. 

If you would like some documentation, READ Jorges Bible. He recommends clones at 2-3 weeks. 

BTW - I don't have any issues cloning during flower.


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## legallyflying (Oct 17, 2010)

Mothers or veg I think makes little difference. I think it comes down to space limitations. Clones taken from flower have to revert back to vegetative growth and will take 2-3 weeks to do so. Don't know about the bushiness thing I always just trained my plants. 
I'm doing hydro now but in my outdoor days I ALWAYS grew from seed as seeds grow a tap root. 

Btw.. Jorges bible page 55 " cloning from a flowering plant is difficult and the results are not always the best..poweful flowering hormones must be reversed and rooting hormone signals must be sent" 

I don't know any growers that plan on taking flowering clones, this is only done when it has to be. But hey, if it works for you it works.


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## golddog (Oct 17, 2010)

Hey legalflyer,

Two sides I see...

If I want quick clones or I need a lot, I would clone a bunch from veg. They will root in a week and you can go to town.

I on the otherhand, don't need quick clones. And I don't need them in a hurry, so it works for me. They will usually root in 2-3 weeks instead of one. If you have a good setup for cloning, this should not be an issue.

That said, I am in weeks 10 on some Blue dream, and I know it will need at least another 2 or 3 weeks. The cuttings I took 2 weeks ago are already rooted (rapid rooters) and I have put them in 4 oz cups w/FFOF. I will put them in my veg box until I harvest.

If I had taken the cuttings before I put them in flower, they would have been vegging for 6 or 7 weeks. 

So that's why I do it


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## sparkjumper (Oct 18, 2010)

golddog the reason cervantes take cuts at two or three weeks is because he expects those cuts to be put under 12/12 right away,a sea of green type thing.I like to take pistiless cuts in veg because I'm going to veg those cuts for 4-6 weeks before flowering them.I have an 8 by 8 flowerroom with 3 1K vertizontals and I like my plants to yield 4 oz. minimum.If I took pistilled cuts after rooting much of the energy would be used producing more pistils since it came from a sexually mature plant,I want 100% of the plants energy into producing foliage,not pistils


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## legallyflying (Oct 18, 2010)

I guess it's all a matter of timing then. Good to know that taking flowering clones is an option. I just popped 6 white rhino seeds and need to veg/ sex/ and clone them. Maybe I'll flower all of them and take cuttings. Instead of pushing clones to flower to sex then. 

How long would it take to revert rooted clones back to veg? 2 weeks? That might work best. Take a shit load of clones from each plant, flower them, trash males and revert the females


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## 9867mike777 (Oct 18, 2010)

You can also take your plant completely to harvest, chop everything but a few small bud sites on the bottom, put it back on 24 hour light cycle and "re-veg" it. It does take some time to start growing again, but it has the advantage that you know the entire history of the plant, from seed to harvest. Also, since you chopped it all down, it will invariably put out many shoots which would be good for cloning. If you really have a nice plant, this is one way to salvage it for another crop of clones. Or you can even put the re-veg back on 12 hour day and go for another run that way. Next time I do this, I might repot it when I start the re-veg process.


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## cadeneli (Oct 18, 2010)

Aren't mothers vegging???


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## cadeneli (Oct 18, 2010)

When I clone and don't have a mother, I veg til I see preflowers. The time and energy waisted on cloning a flowering plant can be saved by simply allowing the vegging plant to mature long enough to show its prefowers. Sorry if I missed something. Just quick scanned the thread.


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## henery (Oct 18, 2010)

Ok here is the truth for ya not what suites your needs or what people want to hear!

The fact is strains do get shittier with time do to stress so the less the plant is stressed the less the deterioration of the strain!
So lets look at the methods taking cuttings from your vegging plant stressing the hell out of them ever couple weeks clearly is the most stressfull!
While having a mother and only pruning her every couple weeks this is my vote as taking a cutting of a mother is way less stress on a plant then trying to root!

So in short if you love your strain keep a healthy mother and start a new one when you think she is getting old or stressed!!!


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## legallyflying (Oct 18, 2010)

henery said:


> Ok here is the truth for ya not what suites your needs or what people want to hear!
> 
> The fact is strains do get shittier with time do to stress so the less the plant is stressed the less the deterioration of the strain!
> So lets look at the methods taking cuttings from your vegging plant stressing the hell out of them ever couple weeks clearly is the most stressfull!
> ...


Word. Plus rep for speaking the truth of the matter. Some people will clone of clones for 10 generations. They are gentically identical but genes are only half of the equation. In some ways plants are like young children. You mollest them bad when they are young and they will never recover. It's not all that bad as the world
needs porn stars and strippers but I grow my own seeds so I know exactly what I'm getting.


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## Pooters (Oct 20, 2010)

I am sure everyone on here trims, grooms or tops there plants during vegging. This adds a small amount of stress and normally uet them recover for about a week or so. So taking a clone or to will not add no more stress then what is already done. I am not saying take enough to fill the garden from one plant but one or two from each. Unless u really like one plant over the rest and want to fill the garden with it. I plan on growing 12 under one light, take a clone or two from each during the trimming phase then vegg for 4 weeks and do the same with the other lights so they will be a month apart and keep repeating.


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## sparkjumper (Oct 20, 2010)

This is one of those discussions where there really is no right or wrong way to propagate,only the way that works best for you.In close to 10 years I've never kept a mother plant,yet at least 90% of my grows are from clones.I have a system for taking two cuts from near the bottom or bottom/middle of the plant,the idea is to get healthy cuts.If you can make one cut root out of two cuts you're in the wrong business lol.Usually both of mine root but I only keep the healthiest.Here's the hassle.You have to flower the donor plants for 40 days or more before you are sure its the pheno you want.All the while you are taking care of these vegging plants and transplanting them,just to throw them away except for the jewel of the ball of course.I wish there was an easier way but I havent found it.And shit when you get rid of a clone at 30 days because the donor has no trichs,then 10 days later it looked like a snowfall fell on them....but alas its too late to threw away the copy to make room or because the donor looked at shit.I know I tend to ramble folks and for that I dont apologise,I'm a good person with a voca grande.One thing you can count on,I learned from the best on OG and icmag and love to help people bcome successful


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## Pooters (Oct 21, 2010)

I mainly was just trying to make sure genetics would not deteriorate as u keep cloning down the line, since it theoreticaly should not sine it is a exact copy. I think that would be the best for me since if I am going to add another area for mothers I would rather add 2 light movers or one more 600 watt light. In the past to get mothers I would take clones and grow them all the way to completion before picking my moms. I would like to add another light so I can rotate every 3 weeks but ever 4.5 will have to do for now.


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## 9867mike777 (Oct 21, 2010)

legallyflying said:


> Word. Plus rep for speaking the truth of the matter. Some people will clone of clones for 10 generations. They are gentically identical but genes are only half of the equation. In some ways plants are like young children. You molest them bad when they are young and they will never recover. It's not all that bad as the world
> needs porn stars and strippers but I grow my own seeds so I know exactly what I'm getting.


 I don't think the comparison is good at all. A human being is not the same thing as a plant. For one thing, a plant really doesn't have a brain or memories. A plant pretty much lives in the moment. So when it recovers from stress, which is pretty darn fast with a plant nicknamed "weed", it continues on as if everything is normal. It doesn't relive memories of stress from the past. I don't think cutting branches changes the genetics of the plant in the least.


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## Fluxcap (Oct 21, 2010)

This topic is interesting. I keep one or two mothers for an easy access to lots of clones, Bonsai mothers are a good way to save a strain for years with out taking up to much space.

If you flower out a plant and don't take any clones but still want to keep the genetics, leave a couple of bottom branches on and regenerate the plant until you can get a clone or two from it. 

It is really easy to save genetics, there is no reason why you should lose any strain you plan on growing again.


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## secretagent (Oct 24, 2010)

9867mike777 said:


> I don't think the comparison is good at all. A human being is not the same thing as a plant. For one thing, a plant really doesn't have a brain or memories. A plant pretty much lives in the moment. So when it recovers from stress, which is pretty darn fast with a plant nicknamed "weed", it continues on as if everything is normal. It doesn't relive memories of stress from the past. I don't think cutting branches changes the genetics of the plant in the least.


I have actually come across tons of sources of research confirming the opposite of this, that plant and animal biology are strikingly similar. A good place to look into this subject is the book "the secret life of plants", kind of a dry read but super informative about all sorts of research on plants that you have never heard of before. Plants in fact do have a memory, have a nervous system that acts just like that of animals, and will register emotions(read by way of a polygraph, same way as in humans.....). One of the trippiest experiments I read about was a group of plants in a room all hooked up to polygraphs to record their electromagnetic spikes. A man then walks into the room, goes to one of the plants and rips a leaf off violently. The polygraph of the ripped plant spikes like crazy along with all the other plants. Then the man leaves. A few hours later more people are sent into this room, one at a time. As each new person enters the plants have no reaction. Until the man who ripped the leaf off previously reenters the room, at which point the plants all spike the polygraph soley due to the presence of this man. Plants are smarter then we think.......


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## djruiner (Oct 24, 2010)

secretagent said:


> I have actually come across tons of sources of research confirming the opposite of this, that plant and animal biology are strikingly similar. A good place to look into this subject is the book "the secret life of plants", kind of a dry read but super informative about all sorts of research on plants that you have never heard of before. Plants in fact do have a memory, have a nervous system that acts just like that of animals, and will register emotions(read by way of a polygraph, same way as in humans.....). One of the trippiest experiments I read about was a group of plants in a room all hooked up to polygraphs to record their electromagnetic spikes. A man then walks into the room, goes to one of the plants and rips a leaf off violently. The polygraph of the ripped plant spikes like crazy along with all the other plants. Then the man leaves. A few hours later more people are sent into this room, one at a time. As each new person enters the plants have no reaction. Until the man who ripped the leaf off previously reenters the room, at which point the plants all spike the polygraph soley due to the presence of this man. Plants are smarter then we think.......


i would like to see that whole experiment...but it makes sense...its why we water at the same time...let the lights go on and off at the same time...plants do have memory....and just changing up times you do certain things to it can stress the plant...people could really home in on their plants and really make them happy..if we knew the entire make up of plants....guess ive got some research to do today on this subject


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## tip top toker (Oct 24, 2010)

What is the difference between mothers and vegging plants? Mothers are just vegging plants that are trimmed back from time to time


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## cadeneli (Oct 24, 2010)

tip top toker said:


> What is the difference between mothers and vegging plants? Mothers are just vegging plants that are trimmed back from time to time


my point exactly


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## Total Head (Oct 24, 2010)

if a plant is trained really well you can take a good 6-7 cuts off it around 4 weeks and still never have any canopy gaps. around 4 weeks veg i am able to take cuts from a branch of a branch of a branch. i cut the tallest ones so the lower branches will grow up more to fill in the gaps i made. i don't have the space to fuck with mother plants.


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## djruiner (Oct 24, 2010)

i think he means cloning from a different plant each time as opposed to taking the same clones from the same mothers.meaning..which is better....taking a clone from a newly grown vegging plant...or taking numerous clones from a mother plant....if a strain can become weak from taking multiple clones from one plant


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## Pooters (Oct 25, 2010)

I was manly wondering about cloning of clones of clones and as u end up further down the line do genetics weaken. But after doing research and listing to some peoples experiences. I don't think they do.


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## deprave (Oct 25, 2010)

couple things ive found: Cloning in early flowering makes little difference, take a lower branch without pistols on it. if u take a mature one with buds you can get that wierd result...

secondly: a more mature plant is better (clone of a clone is best maturity)

I apply this two ways, the vast majority of my clones are lower branches from plants in flowering for less than 2 weeks, A few clones I veg for a long time and take a couple cuts 1 to 2 months in veg then let her heal and then finally flower her..two weeks later to prune the bottom for more clones as all plants get a few cuts off them 1 to 2 weeks in flower.


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## Pooters (Oct 25, 2010)

I have done that in the past because I had to as far as clones from flowering plants. and for the vertical grow I am trying bushier would be better so I will definitely will give it a try.


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## JayDoe71 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hey guys, Has anyone mentioned the fact that if you're doing a perpetual SOG grow and only vegging for two weeks or less, there are hardly good clones to take? I let clones root for two weeks, then give them another 10 days or so of veg time. The clones are only 4-6" when they go into 12/12, but they're beginning to accelerate...I do almost 4 plants per square foot, so I'm always going for that short, even canopy. 

My point is that after only ten days of vegging there aren't accepable clones to take.

I do believe that clones can be taken from vegatative plants (no mother) indefinetely without any negative affects on future generations as long as the original mother and successive vegatative plants never see less then 18 hours of light per day.

So, I also believe that taking clones from plants that have been in 12/12 for a couple of weeks is a no-no. This is what is meant by a copy-of-a-copy effect. You can get away with 3 or 4 generations of this, but if you keep taking flowering clones-of-clones, your crops will deteriorate. Taking a young plant and reverting it back to veg is extremely stressfull, and every generation it's done componds this stress.


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## DrFever (Nov 6, 2010)

I always take my clones from my 4TH WEEK veg plants
week before i go into flower


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## reefcouple (Nov 6, 2010)

Its been my experience that cloning from clones eventually the strain "breaks down" I get about 1-1/2 to 2 yrs out of a strain cloning from clones (for whatever reason, i'm no botonist so I wont even try to say why this happens).. When I have a mother plant, it lasts for as long as i take good care of her..

I still like cloning from clones, and just keep some beans in reserve, saves alot in time, space and cost.


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## Pooters (Nov 6, 2010)

thats what i have heard reefcouple and the reason for asking. 2 years is a good amount of time, at that point some new strains are definitely in order anyway.


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## reefcouple (Nov 6, 2010)

1 thing I do is I label the heck out of them (clones corresponding to clones) then I take the clone from the best 1 of the bunch. I let her grow for a couple months in veg so I can steal as many clones off her as possible 9try to get as many as it will take for your next batch). This way I know I will be happy with ALL clones.. (kind of a short term momma, but then I quickly bloom her as well)..

Hope that helps


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