# Light ???



## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

This morning, I read this thread ,,,,

https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/

I wanted to post a response but couldn't because it had been locked.

I decided to start a thread and see if a discussion could take place without the negative nonsense? IOW have a discussion that benefits growers and our gardens.

If you remember when I was here as Riddleme, my pet peeve was lights and I pulled 2lbs from 4 plants with 2 400's. Now I flower with T5's and yeppers it's 1000 watts of T5's but still T5's and when I post I pretty much always have someone that says I should just get an HPS (which I would never do lol) I simply ignore it and move on. I understand why some like and use HPS, I understand that we as growers all have different methods and ways of doing things, different goals, different needs, hell it's kinda like just bein human. 

To be honest, I kinda enjoy reading the threads that go sideways as it can be entertaining as just an observer, not fun when your the poster and your intent gets stepped on so much I guess. I think a lot of us have been there. And yeppers, I like Uncle Ben, he is a gruffy old dude but he knows his shit when it comes to plants and I well know there are some that disagree with that but I also am guilty of posting in threads to try and protect or steer new growers in a more sane direction. IMO once you move beyond new grower status, you should start experimentin with things and see for yourself. Much like I did in a thread here where defoil was concerned, I took 3 clones (same plant) and removed all the fans on one, some fans on one and no fans on one. The one with no fans removed yielded the most and the one with all fans removed yielded the least. I moved on. I didn't prove anything IMO and I wasted a couple ounces of yield but I saw for myself and have not done it since. With that said, I still tell new growers to do it and see for themselves, because that is what should be happening, it's how we learn.

The problem with light is most do not seem to understand it. You have the Inverse square law driving a point that is moot and you have the more light is better (it's not) you have the get it closer and even cool it to get it even closer nonsense. When it is the other things in your garden that make a bigger difference. The truth is the plant can only use so much light and then it stops. Google Mid day depression in plants and read up on it. I, the guy flowering with T5's actually have 1/2 hour of darkness interrupt my light schedule after the lights have been on for 6.5 hours to give the plants a break and thwart the effects of mid day depression. I have it because I keep my canopy at 89 ~ 92 degrees while my ambient room temp is 77 ~ 84 (the minor fluctuations are seasonal) I learned a long time ago that heat is your friend if you use it properly and the high canopy temp mimics what happens outdoors under the sun. There is also a way to adjust temp and humidity to put the plants in a condition where they grow their collective asses off, but rather than learn these things and make adjustments, most simply add more light and fight with heat? I have never understood this which I suppose is why it has been a pet peeve lol.

As to the post I wanted to make in UB's thread that was locked, I am sharing a pic of popcorn that is over 3 feet from the closest T5 bulbs and is under leafs and is thriving. Nice and dense and covered in trics and my point is,,,,, if your garden is tweaked properly penetration is not an issue, less light is actually better and the end product is better as well. Light is simply one of many elements/tools in our gardens that we have control over (unlike outdoors).

I hope that we can now have a discussion about it and that those participating and reading this will have a chance to learn a thing or 3


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## a senile fungus (Dec 11, 2014)

Do you have any issues with bud density using the T5s?

When I grew with fluoros my buds were not that dense but the strain was finicky and other things in the grow weren't ideal. 

I was planning on firing up those fluoros this week to see if they still work...


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Do you have any issues with bud density using the T5s?
> 
> When I grew with fluoros my buds were not that dense but the strain was finicky and other things in the grow weren't ideal.
> 
> I was planning on firing up those fluoros this week to see if they still work...


None, my buds are dense and I get big colas, it really is the sum of all parts, not just the lights that make it come together


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## mudballs (Dec 11, 2014)

i love your comment on the 6.5 hr break and may have learned something already. will check later. as for light requirements for popcorn buds as i understand it plants can move nutrients around (translocation). its safe to say a fruiting portion (sink) isn't using photosynthesis to grow. so where does this lead us?


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

mudballs said:


> i love your comment on the 6.5 hr break and may have learned something already. will check later. as for light requirements for popcorn buds as i understand it plants can move nutrients around (translocation). its safe to say a fruiting portion (sink) isn't using photosynthesis to grow. so where does this lead us?


Hopefully into understanding things better so all of us can get the very most/best out of our gardens


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## genuity (Dec 11, 2014)

Full plant pic,if you can?

 
Lights are the biggest part of my grow.


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## mudballs (Dec 11, 2014)

RM3 said:


> Hopefully into understanding things better so all of us can get the very most/best out of our gardens


sorry i meant something else. what is next in the pyramid of importance after light, considering we determine fruiting portions don't use photosynthesis to grow. they aren't directly photosynthesizing.take photosynthesis out of the equation as a given. we obviously have that covered.where would that lead us in the investigation.


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

I don't take a lot of of whole plant shots but I have a few, these are my own CTF strain same as the popcorns above,,,


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

mudballs said:


> sorry i meant something else. what is next in the pyramid of importance after light, considering we determine fruiting portions don't use photosynthesis to grow. they aren't directly photosynthesizing.take photosynthesis out of the equation as a given. we obviously have that covered.where would that lead us in the investigation.


What are we investigating? not sure I'm following. I would put temp & humidity above light in importance of tweaking but light is very much needed, I simply don't consider it the #1 item in terms of tools to use to improve. However I use T5's so I can tweak the spectrum and have it be nothing but what plants require


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## mudballs (Dec 11, 2014)

_Light is simply one of many elements/tools in our gardens that we have control over (unlike outdoors).

I hope that we can now have a discussion about it
_
we are now 'investigating' the other important tools we have control over.temp and humidity above light? hmm.ok if
1)temp/humidity-ideal
2)light-ideal
what's next? and define those ideal parameters. or would you like me to just leave?


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

mudballs said:


> _Light is simply one of many elements/tools in our gardens that we have control over (unlike outdoors).
> 
> I hope that we can now have a discussion about it
> _
> ...


Why would I want you to leave? 

next would be nutes and water, givin the plants what they need/want when they need/want it. this can be subjective because we all have different water and there are tons of nutes that could be used

But each of these can be divided in sub catagories like temp includes rootzone temp, canopy temp, ambient temp etc


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## mudballs (Dec 11, 2014)

well to tweak something we do need baseline levels and we know they are interlinked, changing one moves the baseline of 1 or more other parameters.i like that you mentioned separation of rootzone and canopy temps. we know the ideal range for canopy with/without co2 and whatnot. what i would like to talk about now is rootzone ideal temp and tweaking.you touched on something i could surely use more knowledge on.


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## racerboy71 (Dec 11, 2014)

i'd be interested in hearing more about using high canopy temps to get larger, better growth if you'd be so kind


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

mudballs said:


> well to tweak something we do need baseline levels and we know they are interlinked, changing one moves the baseline of 1 or more other parameters.i like that you mentioned separation of rootzone and canopy temps. we know the ideal range for canopy with/without co2 and whatnot. what i would like to talk about now is rootzone ideal temp and tweaking.you touched on something i could surely use more knowledge on.


I like my rootzone in the 60's, my ambient in the 70's and my canopy in the 90's 

I use heat index to determine humidity, I like my heat index to be 4 points above ambient

I don't adjust lights by the temp or heat rather I adjust the light height to how the plants respond.

Some of this is moot as most growers don't have open rooms (I do) I am very aware that plants respond to barometric pressure and a sealed room with in/out fans defeats this

I am also aware that growers do this because of smell, my plants never stink while growing (unless there is something wrong) so I have never owned a scrubber.

But I did not wanna make this about how "I" grow lol


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

racerboy71 said:


> i'd be interested in hearing more about using high canopy temps to get larger, better growth if you'd be so kind


merely replicating what happens outdoors, as example if the outside temp is 82 and you go stand in the sun it will feel hotter, if you put a thermometer on your arm in the sun it will read higher that the reported ambient temp of the day. If you ride a bike in the sun your exposed arms could easily get a sunburn and you might not notice it because of the wind cooling your arms as you ride. These are all things I consider when I tweak my garden. The breeze we create with fans needs to be just right as well, to much and the plants don't respond properly to the heat, to little we have stress. I tweak my garden for no stress and observable vigorous growth, which is evidenced by a relaxed look and a lighter green growth pattern in the leaves, The bigger the vigor circle the bigger the plants get.


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

two links I use a lot ,,,,

http://www.easysurf.cc/cnver16.htm

http://www.dpcalc.org/


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## mudballs (Dec 11, 2014)

oh man i can see why a lot of growers just stop studying and just do what others do when they tell them how they grow.
http://m.pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/2/241.full
controlling (or attempting to) stomatal opening, transpiration..co2 levels..K uptake....what a headache inducing rabbit hole. too low a temp closes stomata entering a chain reaction. too high a temp has the same effect

journal pdf on oak stomata
heres something i found interesting. in the chart they state they found maximum K intake at 40c..thats 104f! so there may be another 10degrees to play with rm3 during flowering...given we have the adequate supporting co2.man i don't have enough money or room to do what i want to do when it comes to growing ganja.so i rely on others and just do it.playing with such extremes takes talent


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## RM3 (Dec 11, 2014)

mudballs said:


> oh man i can see why a lot of growers just stop studying and just do what others do when they tell them how they grow.
> http://m.pcp.oxfordjournals.org/content/55/2/241.full
> controlling (or attempting to) stomatal opening, transpiration..co2 levels..K uptake....what a headache inducing rabbit hole. too low a temp closes stomata entering a chain reaction. too high a temp has the same effect
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=tS-KVPLkCsKcygSloYLwAQ&url=http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/63/2/388.full.pdf&ved=0CDoQFjAG&usg=AFQjCNFLdx7LR1-zNqxAH5rTxEhPLXAp5w&sig2=JeoAgHSFvbU0i2tlBuHUaw
> ...


It can get very expensive and very addicting lol you can actually drive yourself nuts with all the data out there, why I just go by how they look and respond


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## cannawizard (Dec 11, 2014)

RM3 said:


> The problem with light is most do not seem to understand it. You have the Inverse square law driving a point that is moot and you have the more light is better (it's not) you have the get it closer and even cool it to get it even closer nonsense. When it is the other things in your garden that make a bigger difference. The truth is the plant can only use so much light and then it stops. Google Mid day depression in plants and read up on it. I, the guy flowering with T5's actually have 1/2 hour of darkness interrupt my light schedule after the lights have been on for 6.5 hours to give the plants a break and thwart the effects of mid day depression. I have it because I keep my canopy at 89 ~ 92 degrees while my ambient room temp is 77 ~ 84 (the minor fluctuations are seasonal) I learned a long time ago that heat is your friend if you use it properly and the high canopy temp mimics what happens outdoors under the sun. There is also a way to adjust temp and humidity to put the plants in a condition where they grow their collective asses off, but rather than learn these things and make adjustments, most simply add more light and fight with heat? I have never understood this which I suppose is why it has been a pet peeve lol.


..thanks for the info, mid day depression was a good read from the various univ horti sites, learned something new today


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

genuity said:


> Full plant pic,if you can?
> 
> View attachment 3311495
> Lights are the biggest part of my grow.


You also need to add about 3" more soil to that pot.

Light intensity should be adjusted according to a plant's light saturation point. A very important concept that is NEVER discussed in forums with the exception of me bringing it up now and then.

Like Riddle said, it's the sum of the parts.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

Another concept I toyed with many years ago is photomorphogenesis. 

I now say "screw it all", drop a seed in a pot of soil, plant it outdoors where it's meant to be and not worry about it. 

I'm a simple man.


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## genuity (Dec 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> You also need to add about 3" more soil to that pot.
> 
> Light intensity should be adjusted according to a plant's light saturation point. A very important concept that is NEVER discussed in forums with the exception of me bringing it up now and then.
> 
> Like Riddle said, it's the sum of the parts.


What would that have done?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

genuity said:


> What would that have done?


More roots=more health and vigor and potentially more yield. The deeper that trunk is the more the root production along the buried trunk. I have even pulled off lower leafsets just to sink the plant as deep as possible in order to enhance salts and water uptake.

Just another tweek of mine....


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## genuity (Dec 12, 2014)

would the extra 3" of soil,have made the lower buds bigger?
Or would it have made more room,for the same size buds?
On the lowers.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

genuity said:


> would the extra 3" of soil,have made the lower buds bigger?
> Or would it have made more room,for the same size buds?
> On the lowers.


None of the above.

The size of the lower buds is not related to light intensity. That is another forum myth. Read my thread Riddle linked you to.

Roots are a plant's foundation. Like I said, the more the effective root surface area the more potential yield or plant mass in general.

Ever planted a tall, leggy tomato plant (correctly)? Say it's 12" tall with long internodes. You dig a shallow trench, lay the entire trunk sans leaves in that trench, cover it up and within a day the plant will have straightened up and once established will grow like crazy.


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## genuity (Dec 12, 2014)

Who said anything about light intensity?

So,the more soil/roots I have,the less light I need?

I have ran a few plants,under a few diff lights..and I know for sure light intensity is not a mythical thing at all.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

genuity said:


> Who said anything about light intensity?
> 
> So,the more soil/roots I have,the less light I need?
> 
> I have ran a few plants,under a few diff lights..and I know for sure light intensity is not a mythical thing at all.


1. I did.

2. No

3. ..............


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## genuity (Dec 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. I did.
> 
> 2. No
> 
> 3. ..............


Typical response...


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

Here we go again!


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## mudballs (Dec 12, 2014)

genuity said:


> Typical response...


lemme guess...uncle buck has made a spectacular showing? no wonder i have him on ignore.


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## genuity (Dec 12, 2014)

mudballs said:


> lemme guess...uncle buck has made a spectacular showing? no wonder i have him on ignore.


Its like a broken record


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

genuity said:


> Its like a broken record


Care to explain?


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## mudballs (Dec 12, 2014)

i'd like to see some studies on root uptake and modifiers...anybody got good info? rm3 likes 60 degrees but why and what's it based on?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

mudballs said:


> i'd like to see some studies on root uptake and modifiers...anybody got good info? rm3 likes 60 degrees but why and what's it based on?


Just posted some to your thread - https://www.rollitup.org/t/mudballs-alternate-germination-method-pre-inoculating.852235/

Having said that, a plant will shut down some or all of it's uptake functions based on an active/inactive status which may be dictated in part by low soil temps. Think nature and the seasons.....


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## Cannasutraorganics (Dec 12, 2014)

Real simple, I'll explainwhat auntie B spouted without explaining in enough detail so others can follow. A 5 gallon pot fully rooted in 5 gallons of soil will produce more bud then. 5 gallon pot with 4.5 gallons of soil in it. The size and complexity of the rootball has more to do with yield then almost everything else. And everything else being good, amount of rooted soil is the easiest way to determin yield before harvest. With root trimming pots a 3 foot plant fully rooted will produce about the same as that same plant in the same pot but grown to 5 feet. Now the rootball limits your yield by not transplanting up. Auntie B is a grumpy ass that shoots first and explains never.... Or explains it in a 30 page attachment written by someone else. And when asked about something in there he gets mad and says you can't read, it's all in there...... Since she posts so many of the same articles and pic, he should make them better and in words others understand and just save them and post them instead of the long drawn out ones he she posts.


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## mudballs (Dec 12, 2014)

sorry i meant what is the roots equivalent to a leafs stomata.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

I already explained - "Roots are a plant's foundation. Like I said, the more the effective root surface area the more potential yield or plant mass in general." It's not my fault you're too stupid to get it.



Cannasutraorganics said:


> Real simple, I'll explainwhat auntie B spouted without explaining in enough detail so others can follow. A 5 gallon pot fully rooted in 5 gallons of soil will produce more bud then. 5 gallon pot with 4.5 gallons of soil in it. The size and complexity of the rootball has more to do with yield then almost everything else. And everything else being good, amount of rooted soil is the easiest way to determin yield before harvest. With root trimming pots a 3 foot plant fully rooted will produce about the same as that same plant in the same pot but grown to 5 feet. Now the rootball limits your yield by not transplanting up. Auntie B is a grumpy ass that shoots first and explains never....


This is the kind of bullshit and disrespect that initiates a "grumpy" response to shit heads like this troll. You come in here with a personal attack and then have the gall to come me grumpy. Open wide, it's time to take your medicine. 

" 5 gallon pot with 4.5 gallons of soil in it. The size and complexity of the rootball has more to do with yield then almost everything else. " True in part but without a healthy and robust mass of foliage which is the unit conducting photosynthesis which makes those roots in the first place, it'll never happen (bulking up the root mass).

Again, it's the sum of the parts which I tried to explain using the tomato example. Given the same conditions outdoors, that mater I planted deep should yield more than the mater that was planted 2" below ground.

Your explanation sucked, FWIW.


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## Diabolical666 (Dec 12, 2014)

Cooler temps is better in my experience. When people say they are trying to mimic tropical temps....cannabis is grown all over the world in various environments and temps, it adapts to its enviro


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## genuity (Dec 12, 2014)

Cannasutraorganics said:


> Real simple, I'll explainwhat auntie B spouted without explaining in enough detail so others can follow. A 5 gallon pot fully rooted in 5 gallons of soil will produce more bud then. 5 gallon pot with 4.5 gallons of soil in it. The size and complexity of the rootball has more to do with yield then almost everything else. And everything else being good, amount of rooted soil is the easiest way to determin yield before harvest. With root trimming pots a 3 foot plant fully rooted will produce about the same as that same plant in the same pot but grown to 5 feet. Now the rootball limits your yield by not transplanting up. Auntie B is a grumpy ass that shoots first and explains never.... Or explains it in a 30 page attachment written by someone else. And when asked about something in there he gets mad and says you can't read, it's all in there...... Since she posts so many of the same articles and pic, he should make them better and in words others understand and just save them and post them instead of the long drawn out ones he she posts.


So true..


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## Cannasutraorganics (Dec 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I already explained - "Roots are a plant's foundation. Like I said, the more the effective root surface area the more potential yield or plant mass in general." It's not my fault you're too stupid to get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There you go again..agreeing with me with a but. I'm just repeating what others have said about you and you agreed. Glad I could rile you this morning. Happy Friday...
Flush.....
Also if you have a healthy vigorous root system, I assume you would have the green part the same. I've seen bad green stuf and pulled the soil stuff out to look at the white rooty things and when the green stuff is not so green , the white stuff is not so white and vigorous.
Can Auntie B agree and add a but please. I don't feel complete until I am told the right thing from auntie B....


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## Cannasutraorganics (Dec 12, 2014)

Diabolical666 said:


> Cooler temps is better in my experience. When people say they are trying to mimic tropical temps....cannabis is grown all over the world in various environments and temps, it adapts to its enviro


Adaption growth and vigorous growth are not the same. Just because it grows in most conditions, doesn't mean they are optimal...


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## waterdawg (Dec 12, 2014)

Before this turns into a train wreck lol. Just want to say "great thread RM" glad your emphasising the try it yourself thing! Comining across as far less of a douche this time around lol! Very refreshing and will be watching your discussions with great interest. Again glad your back and discussing various techniques!


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## bripay50 (Dec 12, 2014)

Quick question

Whats better to veg autos
400w mh
or 1000w hps


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## RM3 (Dec 12, 2014)

bripay50 said:


> Quick question
> 
> Whats better to veg autos
> 400w mh
> or 1000w hps


You don't veg autos, and the 1000 will give better yeilds


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## RM3 (Dec 12, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Before this turns into a train wreck lol. Just want to say "great thread RM" glad your emphasising the try it yourself thing! Comining across as far less of a douche this time around lol! Very refreshing and will be watching your discussions with great interest. Again glad your back and discussing various techniques!


Thank you, I tried, looks like it is headin sideways, hopefully not to much lol 

not sure how long I'll be here, but tryin to help while I am


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## RM3 (Dec 12, 2014)

mudballs said:


> i'd like to see some studies on root uptake and modifiers...anybody got good info? rm3 likes 60 degrees but why and what's it based on?


I said in the 60's they mostly stay around 68, is very similar to hydro res temps 

and is why I have em raised off the floor


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## Sativied (Dec 12, 2014)

I agree with the aquadog, good to see you posting here again. Nice T5 plants, should get awesome results with some real grow lights, maybe some smell too 

If they wanted to get rid of you again they probably would have done so already. Or put you in the discouraged group.... when you start getting errors and time outs etc it may be an indication of how welcome you are. Perhaps not mention/plug your own forum and your stay will hopefully be a bit longer this time.

And of course the thread will turn sideways when you start a thread with such a controversial title.


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## RM3 (Dec 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> I agree with the aquadog, good to see you posting here again. Nice T5 plants, should get awesome results with some real grow lights, maybe some smell too
> 
> If they wanted to get rid of you again they probably would have done so already. Or put you in the discouraged group.... when you start getting errors and time outs etc it may be an indication of how welcome you are. Perhaps not mention/plug your own forum and your stay will hopefully be a bit longer this time.
> 
> And of course the thread will turn sideways when you start a thread with such a controversial title.


Nah, don't need em stinkin lol they smell just fine at harvest 

hell I'm not even sure hogbud was banned, I just stopped usin it

me and Potroast are cool as far as I know

and I have had controversy turn into good discussions before, so was tryin again, I know there is a new crowd here now lol

have never come here to pimp my forum


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## bripay50 (Dec 12, 2014)

RM3 said:


> You don't veg autos, and the 1000 will give better yeilds


Thanks bro


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

RM3 said:


> have never come here to pimp my forum


Out of fear, for whatever reason, it could be taken that way. I was given a warning by admin just for mentioning your site in a PM to another member. You see, Big Brudder has this snoop dog software here at Troll-It-Up. Well, the second time I referred someone my PM "privileges" were shit canned with the heavy handed "you were warned once".

It's no fun unless there's a bit of paranoia tossed in. 

Start using some concepts that the kiddies can't seem to grasp, 'photomorphogenesis' or 'light saturation point' and you'll hear crickets.

Talk up bullshit like defoliation or flushing and you'll have a ten page thread talking shit like "well, this is what I do and it works!"

Not to worry, just give your plants a bit of epsom salts, pH your water, and everything will be just fine LOL. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> ....Or put you in the discouraged group.... when you start getting errors and time outs etc it may be an indication of how welcome you are.


So THAT'S what that's all about. And here I was thinking it was shitty software, perhaps some angry "Apache" warriors.


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## Sativied (Dec 12, 2014)

RM3 said:


> hell I'm not even sure hogbud was banned, I just stopped usin it


Oh I thought I read you mention something along those lines, and since you mentioned "not sure how long I'll be here". Anyway, was just some friendly advice. It's not as much your intentions but the possible perception. 



RM3 said:


> and I have had controversy turn into good discussions before


Must have been before my time or not on a cannabis forum 



Uncle Ben said:


> So THAT'S what that's all about. And here I was thinking it was shitty software, perhaps some angry "Apache" warriors.


"_The user discouragement feature subjects users to random errors, delays, and pages, simulating failures in the system behavior, with the ultimate aim of making them eventually leave the site._"

The site has been slow and have been problems with uploading pics for a while, it would surprise me if you're in that group. Sunni mentioned members in that group would know, specifically receiving a warning or something.


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## qwizoking (Dec 12, 2014)

I got tired of reading after the first few posts I apologize.. Another time


I heard you say your plants never stink and hence never owned a scrubber.. I don't know yiu at all or your skills etc..plant count and all that

But I've been saying that forever and I always get shit for it.. Lost respect for many growers over time. @SnapsProvolone for example  hehe


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

No warnings and the downtime is inconsistent. It's usually over the weekends, very early PST when I assume admin staff are shaking off the morning's hangover.


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## RM3 (Dec 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Must have been before my time or not on a cannabis forum


here ya go,
https://www.rollitup.org/t/wow-riddle-has-a-question.339103/

was several years ago


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## RM3 (Dec 12, 2014)

qwizoking said:


> I got tired of reading after the first few posts I apologize.. Another time
> 
> 
> I heard you say your plants never stink and hence never owned a scrubber.. I don't know yiu at all or your skills etc..plant count and all that
> ...


I get shit for it too


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## waterdawg (Dec 12, 2014)

I think it was how the thread was worded re: no smell, and it was a while back so I forget most of it lol. The majority of people on here will listen to the experiences of others and if interested emulate them but the problems arise when one criticises (sorry spell check broken) anothers techniques and belittles them for it. And some just like to troll I guess. There are many ways to grow great buds and not everyone will agree but thats ok as long as its kept civil imo. Again good luck. PS it kinda did look like you were flogging stuff lol.


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## chuck estevez (Dec 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> Oh I thought I read you mention something along those lines, and since you mentioned "not sure how long I'll be here". Anyway, was just some friendly advice. It's not as much your intentions but the possible perception.
> 
> Must have been before my time or not on a cannabis forum
> 
> ...


i was in that group for awhile, Then my warnings went away and it all works again. Kinda like a timeout for kids,lol


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## waterdawg (Dec 12, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> i was in that group for awhile, Then my warnings went away and it all works again. Kinda like a timeout for kids,lol


I find it hard to believe you got a time out Chuck!!! No controversy in your posts ever lol.


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## chuck estevez (Dec 12, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> I find it hard to believe you got a time out Chuck!!! No controversy in your posts ever lol.


right, i'm always so nice and helpful and people just like me, I couldn't understand it either.


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 12, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> right, i'm always so nice and helpful and people just like me, I couldn't understand it either.


I can only assume it was a big mistake. Glad its sorted lol.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 12, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> right, i'm always so nice and helpful and people just like me, I couldn't understand it either.


Joe Blough just might disagree.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 12, 2014)

"less light is actually better", keep the canopy at 92, and get no smell from your plants until harvest?

these are some innovative techniques.

bro, do you even know what it takes to _make a plant tick_?


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 13, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Light intensity should be adjusted according to a plant's light saturation point. A very important concept that is NEVER discussed in forums with the exception of me bringing it up now and then.


ahem.



UncleBuck said:


> anything over 1800 watts for 32 sq ft is overkill.
> 
> 50-55 watts per square foot is the saturation point, more watts is not beneficial after that.
> 
> so i'd vote for 3 x 600, but do whatever you want.





UncleBuck said:


> light saturation, from what i've heard, occurs at about 55 watts per square foot for HID.





UncleBuck said:


> you can probably go up to 65 watts per square foot, i've heard of people using 1000 watts per 4x4 area.


"learn what makes a plant tick"

"give the plant what it needs"

"get vigorous green growth"

"your advice sucks, FWIW"

is it any wonder why these threads get out of hand?


----------



## a senile fungus (Dec 13, 2014)

UncleBuck said:


> ahem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its the thugs.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

UncleBuck said:


> "
> 
> bro, *do you even know what it takes to make a plant tick?*


More than most lol 
T5's 2 feet off the canopy


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

UncleBuck said:


> ahem.
> 
> "learn what makes a plant tick"
> 
> ...


These threads get out of hand because of close minded misunderstanding, I grow and breed my ass off lol, my strains are growing all over the world, my innovations work, lots of growers usin em


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> These threads get out of hand because of close minded misunderstanding, I grow and breed my ass off lol, my strains are growing all over the world, my innovations work, lots of growers usin em


speaking of innovations...you've stirred my desire for knowledge and peak performance of a plant. i was dumb on roots and now i'm a bit smarter. i keep tripping on roots because i like talking to informed people about things i want to know more about.roots as of now...i've found out roots take in water and nutes using ions through
_apoplasm (cell walls and intercellular spaces) and/or (ii) movement cell-to-cell in the symplasm (through the living cells)_
so that lead me to the question how do i tweak those openings? i consider a plant an engine. these are part of the carburetors (stomata=air, roots=fuel) and i want to add a supercharger.what made you decide 60ish degrees was the optimum rootzone temp? is there any 'tweaking' you've experimented with?


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> speaking of innovations...you've stirred my desire for knowledge and peak performance of a plant. i was dumb on roots and now i'm a bit smarter. i keep tripping on roots because i like talking to informed people about things i want to know more about.roots as of now...i've found out roots take in water and nutes using ions through
> _apoplasm (cell walls and intercellular spaces) and/or (ii) movement cell-to-cell in the symplasm (through the living cells)_
> so that lead me to the question how do i tweak those openings? i consider a plant an engine. these are part of the carburetors (stomata=air, roots=fuel) and i want to add a supercharger.what made you decide 60ish degrees was the optimum rootzone temp? is there any 'tweaking' you've experimented with?


Roots are the foundation, the more you lay down, the bigger your project.

The Stomata are the engine and actually work like a carburetor. They open & close based on the conditions in our gardens, we want em wide open and doin their thang 

And IMO light is the fuel while nutes are the supercharger

as far as experiments go, I've done hundreds of em, abused this plant every way I could think of and all ways that I have read about . How do you think I landed on my innovations?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> These threads get out of hand because of close minded misunderstanding, I grow and breed my ass off lol, my strains are growing all over the world, my innovations work, lots of growers usin em


I can vouch for Riddle. He's old school, and "we" know what makes a plant tick. He also has some of the best genetics to be had including the last of my Zamal which was sourced directly from the breeder on La Reunion via Gypsy (owner of IC Mag and seedbanks) from Christophe the breeder. 

I'll say it again, the poor noob is gonna have to learn the hard way by coming here and expecting quality information. The only real innovation is mother nature.


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

i would call light (photosynthesis) the spark plug.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

I know roots because I have literally planted, raised, and harvested tens of thousands of annuals and perennials for 45 years. I have been experimenting and perfecting root control and development to the nth degree using root tip pruning systems. Here's one such journal that was posted to the old and infamous Overgrow.com forum -
https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/

June RootBuilder expansion of a large blood orange tree. Notice no spin-out and large scaffold roots growing into the native soil at the bottom. This is how you _support_ mother nature:


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> i would call light (photosynthesis) the spark plug.


I can see that, and to be honest this is my first time thinking of car analogies lol


----------



## chuck estevez (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> I can see that, and to be honest this is my first time thinking of car analogies lol


yep, my bong is the exhaust.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

My bong is an air cleaner.


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

from a cursory google on 'increasing apoplasm and symplasm openings' i found something about ammonium. ever mess with ammonium or baking soda on the rootzone? best guess at the effects?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> from a cursory google on 'increasing apoplasm and symplasm openings' i found something about ammonium. ever mess with ammonium or baking soda on the rootzone? best guess at the effects?


Probably death. What are you trying to accomplish?


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> from a cursory google on 'increasing apoplasm and symplasm openings' i found something about ammonium. ever mess with ammonium or baking soda on the rootzone? best guess at the effects?


A quick search found this ,,,

*Rejuvenate your rose bushes.* Mix together one tsp baking soda, 1/2 tsp of clear ammonia and one tsp Epsom salt in a gallon of water. One gallon will treat four buses that have lost their luster.

*Test your soil PH.* Wet the soil and take a small amount of baking soda and sprinkle it onto soil. If the baking soda bubbles, your soil is acidic with a PH level under 5.

everything else was about death of things like UB said


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> A quick search found this ,,,
> 
> *Rejuvenate your rose bushes.* Mix together one tsp baking soda, 1/2 tsp of clear ammonia and one tsp Epsom salt in a gallon of water. One gallon will treat four buses that have lost their luster.


"Lost their luster"? Perhaps a little spit and shoe polish might help.

Got a link?


----------



## qwizoking (Dec 13, 2014)

This isn't my thread and I'm not gona come here spouting my thoughts..
But increasing temp at canopy obviously speeds transpiration and a little extra vac to suck shit out the roots, as long as their feet stay cool, all is dandy, this prevents evaporation in the rootbed and allows concentrations\ec and what not to be lower. also effectively reducing the side effects of root bound plants. What yiur suggesting with ammonia or whatever really isn't a good idea. And frankly increasing those "openings" is unnecessary. Though inducing a sort of sar response would be interesting


----------



## chuck estevez (Dec 13, 2014)

people will believe anything, case and point


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> "Lost their luster"? Perhaps a little spit and shoe polish might help.
> 
> Got a link?


http://thegardeningcook.com/baking-soda-in-the-garden/

didn't say I was gonna do it lol


----------



## chuck estevez (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> http://thegardeningcook.com/baking-soda-in-the-garden/


funny, it says it rejuvinates rose bushes, but use it to kill weeds too.


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

qwizoking said:


> This isn't my thread and I'm not gona come here spouting my thoughts..
> But increasing temp at canopy obviously speeds transpiration and a little extra vac to suck shit out the roots, as long as their feet stay cool, all is dandy, this prevents evaporation in the rootbed and allows concentrations\ec and what not to be lower. also effectively reducing the side effects of root bound plants. What yiur suggesting with ammonia or whatever really isn't a good idea. And frankly increasing those "openings" is unnecessary. Though inducing a sort of sar response would be interesting


what's an 'sar response'?
it was just a scientific study that mentioned ammonium as playing a role in increasing apoplasm rates. not like i was gonna pour ammonium in my pots ;p just shooting the breeze.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

Yeah, that Superjive label is always good for a laugh.



RM3 said:


> http://thegardeningcook.com/baking-soda-in-the-garden/
> 
> didn't say I was gonna do it lol


Sorry, didn't mean to imply it, just poking fun. Speaking of which.....

Hi! I am Carol and I love to garden and cook (with a bit of DIY thrown in for fun.) I come from a long line of gardeners and have always love to experiment with food and recipes. Join me as I cook and garden my way through life.

Looks like a plug for Arm and Hammer pure and simple.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> what's an 'sar response'?
> it was just a scientific study that mentioned ammonium as playing a role in increasing apoplasm rates. not like i was gonna pour ammonium in my pots ;p just shooting the breeze.


The *systemic acquired resistance* (SAR) is a "whole-plant" resistance response that occurs following an earlier localized exposure to a pathogen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemic_acquired_resistance


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> what's an 'sar response'?


Sodium Absorption Ratio or Na concentration relative to Ca and Mg charge.

Anything over 18 ppm is bad news.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

Hmmmmm, "Houston, do I push the SAR button or the SAR button to get the action you requested?"


----------



## a senile fungus (Dec 13, 2014)

Why do my plants smell so much?

This year I grew with as little inputs as possible, straight into the ground.

They were watered weekly, but sometimes not. They soil was worked with various organic amendments prior to planting and then they were given water for the rest of the season.

I could smell them about 50ft away...

Why don't your plants smell? And mine do?

Curious?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> The *systemic acquired resistance* (SAR) is a "whole-plant" resistance response that occurs following an earlier localized exposure to a pathogen.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Systemic_acquired_resistance


Keyplex is piggybacking on that with their products, same with DG with their ProTekt.

This is a product I use - http://www.keyplex.com/images/specimen-labels/KeyPlex-350DP.pdf
It contains alpha-keto acids, which may
facilitate utilization of micronutrients, and increase
resistance to environmental stress


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Why don't your plants smell? And mine do?
> 
> Curious?


When's the last time you gave dem puppies a bath?

Seriously though, I find sativas have little aroma compared to skunk. My zamal was almost odorless. I really had to put my nose to it to pick up on anything. Had a faint smell of cinnamon.

Also, ever heard of "terroir"? Given that zamal I would speculate that it would have a completely different sensory profile if grown outdoors in a sandy loam versus indoors in potting soil under artificial light.


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

here's a good 'food for thought'
_1)activation of SAR requires the accumulation of endogenous salicylic acid (SA)

2)Salicylic acid also uncouples oxidative phosphorylation, which leads to increased ADP:ATP and AMP:ATP ratios in the cell 
_
yep if i read things right you can give your plants aspirin  furthermore i think it would be best in flower. i see more relations to phosphates than anything else.
http://faculty.fmcc.suny.edu/mcdarby/majors101book/Chapter_04-Cell_Structure&Function/04-cells&energy.htm

i'm so bored!


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Why do my plants smell so much?
> 
> This year I grew with as little inputs as possible, straight into the ground.
> 
> ...


I grow with ZERO stress, can't do that outside. I am very anal about the tweaked conditions in my garden to the point where I will turn on a humidifier if the RH drops 2 points, most growers wouldn't even take notice


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> here's a good 'food for thought'
> _1)activation of SAR requires the accumulation of endogenous salicylic acid (SA)
> 
> 2)Salicylic acid also uncouples oxidative phosphorylation, which leads to increased ADP:ATP and AMP:ATP ratios in the cell
> ...


I used aspirin in one of the teas I made


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> I used aspirin in one of the teas I made


i think it would be based on the weight and/or size of the plant.how much aspirin did you use? apparently we need a 5x-10x excess and the good thing it seems self regulating. come on qwizo chime in


----------



## a senile fungus (Dec 13, 2014)

Salicylic acid us a natural ingredient in some plants that are used for organic teas, not to mention that I've seen aspirin utilized in other ways.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> i think it would be based on the weight and/or size of the plant.how much aspirin did you use? apparently we need a 5x-10x excess and the good thing it seems self regulating. come on qwizo chime in


3 aspirin to a 5 gallon bucket, the tea also had hops in it


----------



## qwizoking (Dec 13, 2014)

I would be concerned of Herm's but I've never tried it....I have used it to make fem seeds a couple times

I typically grow landrace Sativa's. But that's not all I grow, my last harvest was 60 plants. Blueberry x chemdawg, that crossed with master kush, cheese, and some cat piss haze thing.. Other rotation was a ton of alien crosses. Aliens on crack, alien nightmare, alien x train wreck, alien x deep purple..
I'm talking massive amounts of dank in my bedroom... No smell at all unless I touch them or otherwise rupture a trichrome head..


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Salicylic acid us a natural ingredient in some plants that are used for organic teas, not to mention that I've seen aspirin utilized in other ways.


yep and now we're circling around how much would be needed to see a notably beneficial difference. for a really large plant i would think we'd need a larger solution. 3 pills in a gallon is a really small %. care to try a monster dose? maybe a foliar spray?
nb:from what i read it just turns excess atp into the precursors awaiting use.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> yep and now we're circling around how much would be needed to see a notably beneficial difference. for a really large plant i would think we'd need a larger solution. 3 pills in a gallon is a really small %. care to try a monster dose? maybe a foliar spray?
> nb:from what i read it just turns excess atp into the precursors awaiting use.


Experiment with it and see what happens, best way to learn.

I have 5 different experiments goin at the moment so will be awhile before I play with it again


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

This thread needs some bud porn lol

My Thunder Express, just started week 10 today


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

My GDP, just started week 8


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

damn mine are too young and already in maximum overdrive.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> damn mine are too young and already in maximum overdrive.


what does that mean?


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

they're 14 days old and in hot soil.





it is my opinion when i see those first few leaf sets all gnarled and distorted that the plant is taking in more nutes and light than it can physically process.i love seeing that on young plants. i don't think an aspirin foliar spray or soil tea can help them. i have to wait. correct me if im wrong please.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

mudballs said:


> they're 14 days old and in hot soil.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't really see any gnarling? But agree you should wait


----------



## qwizoking (Dec 13, 2014)

As I said earlier, I've used it to make fem seeds, I def wouldn't foliar.. But I'm just bored and feel like talking..also that plant can definitely handle more light if yiu want, just saying. I personally would lower your lights or add some whatever. And that crinkle isn't a sign of good things..youve got some mild deficiencies that will be exacerbated by extra light and pushing that plant more to its potential


----------



## mudballs (Dec 13, 2014)

really? what is it a sign of?


----------



## ttystikk (Dec 13, 2014)

@RM3 where do you set your RH? Do you supplement CO²? Is your room sealed or is it vented?

I'm asking because of your earlier comments about things working together and about being anal to the point of two point adjustments... such my environmental controller handles just fine.

I'm getting the feeling there's a lot between the lines I'm not reading, and I was hoping for a bit more clarity.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

Already stated, I set RH via heat index, 4 points above ambient

I do not add/supplement CO2

My grow room is wide open, no vents, no scrubbers


----------



## chuck estevez (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> Already stated, I set RH via heat index, 4 points above ambient
> 
> I do not add/supplement CO2
> 
> My grow room is wide open, no vents, no scrubbers


riddle, still do the boiling water thing?


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> riddle, still do the boiling water thing?


Always, goin to be boilin a few this mornin


----------



## qwizoking (Dec 13, 2014)

Boiling water?


----------



## chuck estevez (Dec 13, 2014)

qwizoking said:


> Boiling water?


I know you have read this thread before? https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-truth-about-flushing.409622/

it explains alcohol fermentation in plants.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

qwizoking said:


> Boiling water?


Kills the roots and deprives the plant of O2, this causes the plant to start fermentin its sugars into alcohol to survive, it is a natural response to floods in all plants, boiling water simply makes it happen instantly. They begin to pull from the leaves and fade in the final days after the boil. It speeds everything up, including the cure.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> I know you have read this thread before? https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-truth-about-flushing.409622/
> 
> it explains alcohol fermentation in plants.


Ahhh my old thread  I recently added to it, you should check it out


----------



## chuck estevez (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> Ahhh my old thread  I recently added to it, you should check it out


it's like a bible, i read it all the time.


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Why do my plants smell so much?
> 
> This year I grew with as little inputs as possible, straight into the ground.
> 
> ...


bro, it's because you need to learn what makes a plant tick.


----------



## a senile fungus (Dec 13, 2014)

UncleBuck said:


> bro, it's because you need to learn what makes a plant tick.





Clearly...


----------



## UncleBuck (Dec 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> View attachment 3312582
> 
> 
> Clearly...


bro, did you even keep your canopy at 92 and give it boiling water?

i like to drive a nail through the stalk just so that it knows harvest time is a comin'.


----------



## Sativied (Dec 13, 2014)

Careful UBs, you guys know you can't be in the same thread at the same time, something about rollitup becoming molecularly unstable.


----------



## a senile fungus (Dec 13, 2014)

Not even...

I just left them outside unattended and gave them water.

Did I do something wrong?


----------



## RM3 (Dec 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Not even...
> 
> I just left them outside unattended and gave them water.
> 
> Did I do something wrong?


No  They look great !


----------



## ISK (Dec 13, 2014)

RM3 said:


> My grow room is *wide open, no vents, no scrubbers*


this is how I'm starting my next grow, wide open in a corner of the living room, with just the windows to ventilate.

I did this least year in a 12 x 12 bedroom and it worked well...hoping it will be even better with the larger more ventilated area


----------



## qwizoking (Dec 13, 2014)

In one of my apts I have a 12x13 (I think lol) flower and another to dry and rotate crops. The 2 rooms are connected through a knocked out closet then both are open to my living room. The airflow is beautiful. On the 2nd floor off my balcony and windows open.. Ah glorious


----------



## jpizzle4shizzle (Dec 14, 2014)

I just want to thank uncle Ben and riddle for actually giving good advice, even though half of you haters can't understand what they want to convey. Making a plant tick isn't that bad of advice, most of the questions answered by him are dumb questions anyway. If you can't make your plant tick, you can't give your chick an orgasm. It's the same concept, every plant and every female are different, what makes them happy may be different for every plant/female. 

Sent from my LG-V410 using Rollitup mobile app


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 15, 2014)

jpizzle4shizzle said:


> I just want to thank uncle Ben and riddle for actually giving good advice, even though half of you haters can't understand what they want to convey. Making a plant tick isn't that bad of advice, most of the questions answered by him are dumb questions anyway. If you can't make your plant tick, you can't give your chick an orgasm. It's the same concept, every plant and every female are different, what makes them happy may be different for every plant/female.
> 
> Sent from my LG-V410 using Rollitup mobile app


Maybe I'm getting this all wrong but to me the message they (well more so UB) is the fact that plants are plants and all have the same basic needs. Using a women in that context is just wrong imo lol. Every women I have met has vastly different needs and totally unpredictable to boot lol. Again maybe I'm wrong and that may explain the loss of a couple of houses to marriage disasters lol.


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 15, 2014)

Ummm so yup you are right about women, miss read that lol. Gotta learn how they tick in a very short time frame lol.


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 15, 2014)

Didnt want to highjack the other thread RM so thought I'd ask here re sulphur. My nutes contain ,67% sulpher so not much. I do add epsom by foiler in veg and to the res in flower. I did this more for a mag deficiency due to water makeup. Not sure if you'll be able to answer this but I add appr. Two tablespoons to 100 litres, this seems to cure the mag issue but would it be enough sulpher?


----------



## RM3 (Dec 15, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Didnt want to highjack the other thread RM so thought I'd ask here re sulphur. My nutes contain ,67% sulpher so not much. I do add epsom by foiler in veg and to the res in flower. I did this more for a mag deficiency due to water makeup. Not sure if you'll be able to answer this but I add appr. Two tablespoons to 100 litres, this seems to cure the mag issue but would it be enough sulpher?


That is approx. the same as how much epsom I use give or take a gallon, so I would not up it. Everything I use has sulfur in it even my medium (calcined clay) sounds like you're in hydro? there are different products being tested by others, I'll post that info once they figure it out


----------



## Hydroburn (Dec 15, 2014)

jpizzle4shizzle said:


> I just want to thank uncle Ben and riddle for actually giving good advice, even though half of you haters can't understand what they want to convey. Making a plant tick isn't that bad of advice, most of the questions answered by him are dumb questions anyway. If you can't make your plant tick, you can't give your chick an orgasm. It's the same concept, every plant and every female are different, what makes them happy may be different for every plant/female.
> 
> Sent from my LG-V410 using Rollitup mobile app


If your plants are ticking there is somethin wrong.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2014)

Mah ladies wear Timex....or they wear nothing at all.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 15, 2014)

Back in the day I studied this light spectrum thingie to death. While posting stuff from the U. of Miss. MJ Research studies I found one oldie that has a spectral analysis (distribution) of various fluors:






And then before cannabis growers had even heard of a 600W HPS (much less tried them) I got spectral analysis of the new 600W. Osram was the first to release it. Here's where the rub comes in - the so called "enhanced" lamp had the exact same spectral analysis as the regular 600W HPS! But like everything cannabis, you paid more for it based on customer's dreams which drives marketing hype.

Having said that, I grew plants from start to finish under a 600W HPS for a while and came to the conclusion that this lighting side show of the cannabis industry was more bullshit. The plant just doesn't care. If you notice a HPS has blues. My plants did very well under it.



In case you didn't notice the above graph has a very good distribution where it counts, blues and reds. The spike around 550 is in the noise level when it comes to PAR and relative performance.


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 15, 2014)

RM3 said:


> That is approx. the same as how much epsom I use give or take a gallon, so I would not up it. Everything I use has sulfur in it even my medium (calcined clay) sounds like you're in hydro? there are different products being tested by others, I'll post that info once they figure it out


Thx RM, again real new re hydro but try to stay away from any additional calcium , i suspect that is the reason for the mag def. lots in the well water.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 15, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Thx RM, again real new re hydro but try to stay away from any additional calcium , i suspect that is the reason for the mag def. lots in the well water.


Calcined Clay also know as Hydrotron (little clay balls) slow releases sulfur much the same way Dolomite releases Mag. I use kitty litter made out of it, you can also use Turface but it cost more


----------



## jpizzle4shizzle (Dec 15, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Ummm so yup you are right about women, miss read that lol. Gotta learn how they tick in a very short time frame lol.


Yea I worded it wrong should've said satisfied instead of happy. Keeping a woman happy is another story which is ten times harder than growing mj.

Sent from my LG-V410 using Rollitup mobile app


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 15, 2014)

^^^* true that lol


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 15, 2014)

RM3 said:


> Calcined Clay also know as Hydrotron (little clay balls) slow releases sulfur much the same way Dolomite releases Mag. I use kitty litter made out of it, you can also use Turface but it cost more


Thats what I use re hydroton but after two years of the same stuff she's probably leached out anything in there. Thanks again RM!


----------



## polo the don (Dec 15, 2014)

Rid, a couple questions on increasing sulfur. In the absence of any defficency, particularly mag, what would be a good way to increase the amount of sulfur besides using Epsom salts which increase mag? On the kitty litter matter, are you talking about regular clay litter? The kitty litter I have only says premium clay litter and does not have an ingredient list to see if it's a specific type of clay. When I do get the right type of litter how would you recommend I use it? 
Thanks RM, i respect and appreciate your knowledge and advice.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 15, 2014)

polo the don said:


> Rid, a couple questions on increasing sulfur. In the absence of any defficency, particularly mag, what would be a good way to increase the amount of sulfur besides using Epsom salts which increase mag? On the kitty litter matter, are you talking about regular clay litter? The kitty litter I have only says premium clay litter and does not have an ingredient list to see if it's a specific type of clay. When I do get the right type of litter how would you recommend I use it?
> Thanks RM, i respect and appreciate your knowledge and advice.


I use,,,,,
Jack's Citrus FeED 20-10-20 has 4.9% sulfur
Jack's Aquagold Finisher 7-15-30 has 9% sulfur
Gypsum for Cal, it is Calcium Sulfate 18% sulfur
Epsom for Mag it is Magnesium Sulfate 13% sulfur
and Potassium Sulfate 0-0-50 has 18% sulfur

There are no worries with toxicity when using sulfates 

I use the Wal Mart Special Kitty Unscented Clay Litter Blue & Red bag 25 lbs for $3 simply rinse it off (is very dusty) and mix it with peat 50/50


----------



## polo the don (Dec 15, 2014)

RM3 said:


> I use,,,,,
> Jack's Citrus FeED 20-10-20 has 4.9% sulfur
> Jack's Aquagold Finisher 7-15-30 has 9% sulfur
> Gypsum for Cal, it is Calcium Sulfate 18% sulfur
> ...


Thanks, I was worried about mag tox using Epsom salts but you clarified that for me. 
I grow in peat already so your suggesting I mix the litter half and half like I normally do with perlite? Skip the perlite?
Again thanks.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 15, 2014)

polo the don said:


> Thanks, I was worried about mag tox using Epsom salts but you clarified that for me.
> I grow in peat already so your suggesting I mix the litter half and half like I normally do with perlite? Skip the perlite?
> Again thanks.


I use sunshine mix#4 which has perlite in it already, but I don't add any more just the kitty litter, so I would skip the perlite

I also add 1/8 to a 1/4 teaspoon of epsom with every feed, a little goes a long way


----------



## polo the don (Dec 15, 2014)

RM3 said:


> I use sunshine mix#4 which has perlite in it already, but I don't add any more just the kitty litter, so I would skip the perlite
> 
> I also add 1/8 to a 1/4 teaspoon of epsom with every feed, a little goes a long way


Thanks. I will try that.


----------



## BROBIE (Dec 15, 2014)

Keep an eye on the cats too.


----------



## waterdawg (Dec 15, 2014)

I would have thought the clay would have retained the water to much. Guess thats why u should never assume things. Kitty litter huh, go figure.


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## RM3 (Dec 16, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> I would have thought the clay would have retained the water to much. Guess thats why u should never assume things. Kitty litter huh, go figure.


It's based on Al Tapla's Gritty Mix, He is a regular garden guru, Google it


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## mudballs (Dec 16, 2014)

qwizoking said:


> This isn't my thread and I'm not gona come here spouting my thoughts..
> But increasing temp at canopy obviously speeds transpiration and a little extra vac to suck shit out the roots, as long as their feet stay cool, all is dandy, this prevents evaporation in the rootbed and allows concentrations\ec and what not to be lower. also effectively reducing the side effects of root bound plants. What yiur suggesting with ammonia or whatever really isn't a good idea. And frankly increasing those "openings" is unnecessary. Though inducing a sort of sar response would be interesting


found this guy spraying Jaz Rose Spray. it can be considered a sar response. his tests state an increase in trichs.
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=200972


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## waterdawg (Dec 16, 2014)

RM3 said:


> It's based on Al Tapla's Gritty Mix, He is a regular garden guru, Google it


Not doubting you at all lol. As I grow in water Kitty litter is probably not the best choice but ya I'll google it.


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## RM3 (Dec 16, 2014)

mudballs said:


> found this guy spraying Jaz Rose Spray. it can be considered a sar response. his tests state an increase in trichs.
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=200972


That is true, I am also playing with Insect Frass for the same response


----------



## mudballs (Dec 16, 2014)

RM3 said:


> That is true, I am also playing with Insect Frass for the same response


from a quick read it sounds like it might also kill myco?
http://www.onfrass.com/faq.html
i'd do frass in veg and Jaz in flower. what's ur application process?


----------



## RM3 (Dec 16, 2014)

mudballs said:


> from a quick read it sounds like it might also kill myco?
> http://www.onfrass.com/faq.html
> i'd do frass in veg and Jaz in flower. what's ur application process?


foliar feeding


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## skinnysmoke (Dec 16, 2014)

Hey @RM3 question if I may, I'm thinking of getting a 6 bulb T5ho panel for a small space. What do you think is a good spectrum mix for this panel? I was thinking maybe 1 of each ATI bulbs. What about the other 4 bulb slots? Here's a link to the fixture I'm going to use
http://www.ebay.com/itm/T5-Grow-Light-2ft-6Lamps-DL826S-Fluorescent-HO-Hydroponic-Bloom-Veg-DaisyChain-/221549706510?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item3395643d0e


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## RM3 (Dec 16, 2014)

skinnysmoke said:


> Hey @RM3 question if I may, I'm thinking of getting a 6 bulb T5ho panel for a small space. What do you think is a good spectrum mix for this panel? I was thinking maybe 1 of each ATI bulbs. What about the other 4 bulb slots? Here's a link to the fixture I'm going to use
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/T5-Grow-Light-2ft-6Lamps-DL826S-Fluorescent-HO-Hydroponic-Bloom-Veg-DaisyChain-/221549706510?pt=US_Hydroponics&hash=item3395643d0e


That would depend on what you intend to do with it?


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## skinnysmoke (Dec 16, 2014)

My plans are to flower clones from outdoor vegging plants for an early harvest. Then maybe later in the season taking 1 plant from start to finish with the help of CFLs. Not much space for 2 full size plants.


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## RM3 (Dec 16, 2014)

in that case do 1 true actinic, 1 GE 4100K, 2 Coral Plus and 2 Plantmax 6500K


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## skinnysmoke (Dec 16, 2014)

RM3 said:


> in that case do 1 true actinic, 1 GE 4100K, 2 Coral Plus and 2 Plantmax 6500K


Thank you for the info! Should I play around with bulb placement in fixture or is there a specific arrangement that should work best?


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## RM3 (Dec 16, 2014)

I put the actinic and 4100 in the middle with the blues on the outside, so like
6500,coral,4100,actinic,coral,6500


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## skinnysmoke (Dec 16, 2014)

RM3 said:


> I put the actinic and 4100 in the middle with the blues on the outside, so like
> 6500,coral,4100,actinic,coral,6500


Thanks for the info brother

Peace


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## mudballs (Dec 17, 2014)

RM3 said:


> foliar feeding


gotta bug you a few more seconds here...at what stage of the plants growth did you start foliar spraying the frass? did you use the bottles recommended mix or modify it with your own teas? just wanna duplicate what you do when the time comes


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## RM3 (Dec 17, 2014)

mudballs said:


> gotta bug you a few more seconds here...at what stage of the plants growth did you start foliar spraying the frass? did you use the bottles recommended mix or modify it with your own teas? just wanna duplicate what you do when the time comes


I actually stopped awhile back (because I had also changed a few bulbs) and am startin back up now that I have the blue dialed in. I went by the recommended 1 tablespoon to a gallon of water, hittin em every morning after the flip. I will now do a side by side with 2 clones


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## mudballs (Dec 17, 2014)

copy that thanks


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## ledhed59 (Dec 18, 2014)

quick question color temp versus ph lock in importance to yield what is usually the basic mistakes briefly since the root ball and canopy are both related and important


----------



## RM3 (Dec 18, 2014)

ledhed59 said:


> quick question color temp versus ph lock in importance to yield what is usually the basic mistakes briefly since the root ball and canopy are both related and important


Not sure what you mean by PH lock? biggest part of yield is the machine, build big root systems


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## ledhed59 (Dec 18, 2014)

maybe block not lock...lol. I mean soil ph getting out of parameters for the most useful intake of nutes. I guess just watering with unknown ph water into unknown ph soil.how that compares to using only one color temp light in your grow for example only soft white cfl 2700K......Sorry just trying to get my best yield.....so many things to watch.....good thread though


----------



## RM3 (Dec 18, 2014)

ledhed59 said:


> maybe block not lock...lol. I mean soil ph getting out of parameters for the most useful intake of nutes. I guess just watering with unknown ph water into unknown ph soil.how that compares to using only one color temp light in your grow for example only soft white cfl 2700K......Sorry just trying to get my best yield.....so many things to watch.....good thread though


The PH thing varies with grow style and medium, and yeppers it matters but does have a window or a range IMO it's not the most important thing to be concerned with. If using CFL's use a mixed spectrum


----------



## jpizzle4shizzle (Dec 19, 2014)

RM3 said:


> I use,,,,,
> Jack's Citrus FeED 20-10-20 has 4.9% sulfur
> Jack's Aquagold Finisher 7-15-30 has 9% sulfur
> Gypsum for Cal, it is Calcium Sulfate 18% sulfur
> ...


----------



## RM3 (Dec 19, 2014)

I have never owned a meter, I go by what the plant needs by how it looks, but I've been doing it for decades lol It totally depends on your grow style and the strain but bottom line is less is more


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 21, 2014)

Jorge Cervantes aka George Patton wrote a comprehensive lighting ditty in a HT mag, March 2000. He supports in real data what I have observed and stated anecdotally. I've said over and over again that the plants don't really care when it comes to MH versus HPS, they do fine under both and the ONLY real reason for the lighting lamps, ballast gimmicks MH to HPS is to pad the lighting corporate pockets.

Now....he did fine until he got down to the part that HPS doesn't have much blues. It has plenty for great plant performance as I've witnessed growing from start to finish exclusively with HPS. He also didn't mention a plant's light saturation point, notice the last statement that the higher the light intensity the better. However, the entire article needs to be read in order to put it all in its proper context and perspective.

Just took a photo of one of the pages of this great article. Will say it again, Cervantes has the best chapter on lighting using real data/measurements I've seen in a grow bible.



Draw a horizontal line across the bottom of the chart to separate the non-PAR noise (green/yellow/orange) from the rest and it's evident that the spectral distribution or output of blue is about as much as the red and FR.


----------



## lilroach (Dec 21, 2014)

UB......what do you feel about a mixed spectrum such as using both MH and HPS to flower plants? It would seem that would cover all bases in regards to offering a broad light spectrum.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 21, 2014)

That's fine and that exact mix was recommended at the end of the article. There was a method to my madness when I grew indoors. I used a 400W MH to start my seedlings AND more importantly, when the garden's footprint expanded (yes, I'd physically move the reflective walls outward) and I felt the need for more light because of the broader area, I would add a 600W HPS. The process was reversed as I harvested, pulled plants out, moved the reflective panels inward toward the center and finished up with the HPS.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 29, 2014)

Posted this this weekend over at my place, thought I'd share it here 

This is why I tell folks to read things outside of MJ forums. Like the Plant Growth Chamber Handbook, a scientific journey into growing indoors. Here is a link to chapter one ,,,,

http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Ch01.pdf

The whole book is here,,,,,

http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Growth_Chamber_Handbook/Plant_Growth_Chamber_Handbook.htm

If you look at page 3 you will see a comparison of different lights (including the sun) measured in the wavelengths that plants respond to (PAR) and you will see that Flouros and Metal Halides beat HPS pretty bad and more closely compare to the sun. This is totally because of the blue in those lights that HPS lacks. Note that Lumens & Lux are included in the chart. IMO this chapter should be required reading but actually the whole book is a great read !!!

Then there is my fav posted thread over ICMAG back in 2008 where the OP like some here tried to link lumens to par with a few trolls and a few really good responses, it is only 2 pages long

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=105515

and here are a few more good reads on the subject ,,,,,

http://www.just4growers.com/stream/grow-lights/lumens-are-for-humans,-par-is-for-plants!.aspx

http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/item/lumens-are-for-humans.html

http://www.sunmastergrowlamps.com/SunmLightandPlants.html

Folks are always amazed at what I do with lights but don't seem to want to learn why?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 29, 2014)

RM3 said:


> Folks are always amazed at what I do with lights but don't seem to want to learn why?


Because I researched and digested this shit until I was blue in the face 15 years ago and I aint gonna bother any mo, hah!  Gawd, if I had a nickel for every lighting thread 4, 8, 12, 15 years ago.

For noobs, they'd be advised to read and try to process what's in your links. They'd also be advised to pay attention to bonafide plant growth studies conducted by non-partisan (those NOT in the lighting industry) universities. NASA's studies would be a good start.

UB


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## Sativied (Dec 29, 2014)

I guess Phillips has it all wrong then, designing those inefficient HID lights for horticulture purposes while their T5s are actually better grow lights.

If you would have claimed T5 can measure up to HPS in terms of yield... but this talk of T5 being better than HPS is getting old fast... speaking of old, that table is based on 30-year old data.

Also ironic how you link that popular article from Gavita.


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## RM3 (Dec 29, 2014)

Sativied said:


> I guess Phillips has it all wrong then, designing those inefficient HID lights for horticulture purposes while their T5s are actually better grow lights.
> 
> If you would have claimed T5 can measure up to HPS in terms of yield... but this talk of T5 being better than HPS is getting old fast... speaking of old, that table is based on 30-year old data.
> 
> Also ironic how you link that popular article from Gavita.


Why ironic? I'm not saying T5 is better than HPS, never have each has a use and IMO those using HPS could get better results if they added some T5 (or LED) supplementation and by better results I'm talking quality as in potency. I'm fully aware that HPS gives higher yields. And tis very true that many advances in design improvements have occurred since that book was written. But it is also very true that adding deep blue increases trics and resin growth


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## Sativied (Dec 29, 2014)

RM3 said:


> I'm not saying T5 is better than HPS, never have


Well you're kind of implying it here by referencing that table:


RM3 said:


> and you will see that Flouros and Metal Halides beat HPS pretty bad


 and providing other links to help people interpret that.

Besides that:


RM3 said:


> I use aquarium T5's and there is no better light


 I guess you meant no better T5 then...



RM3 said:


> Why ironic?


Because a gavita isn't just any HPS setup and a good example of HPS>T5. Reminds me of LED fans making comparisons to HPS, they take the numbers of some average old knockoff HPS instead of a real philips in gavita gear skewing the numbers up to 30%.



RM3 said:


> But it is also very true that adding deep blue increases trics and resin growth


Maybe it just looks like that because of the smaller buds, ever thought of that? You get the same amount of trics, but on less swollen bud, making it look more frosty.  There's only so much blue you need to fill a closet with frosty buds. I grow for resin too... with hps:
 

It's a valid point though. A major advantage of your tanning bed and often underestimated factor is the spread. While I prefer a MH+HPS over T5 for more blue during flowering, it's impossible to get such an even spread with two different hid bulbs.


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## RM3 (Dec 29, 2014)

IMO T5's are better for a small hobby grower with a small garden. If I was growing for yield I would get a 4 foot hood with an HPS and put it in the middle of my booth with the T5's on each side which would give the best of both worlds IMO and I would have the UV & deep blue bulbs in the T5 fixtures as the HPS would supply the reds.

and yeppers the aquarium bulbs are the best T5 bulbs as they are designed to penetrate 3 feet of water to grow coral 

But the main purpose of that post was to help new growers better understand that Lumens are not the proper way to judge a light


----------



## Sativied (Dec 29, 2014)

RM3 said:


> IMO T5's are better for a small hobby grower with a small garden.


That's the general consensus in the dutch grow forums as well, they call it micro/fluo grows. Although we probably have a slightly different interpretation of what a small garden is. 



RM3 said:


> But the main purpose of that post was to help new growers better understand that Lumens are not the proper way to judge a light


Yeah I got that, and a little ironic if you indeed claimed T5>HPS because that gavita article is written for the same purpose, to be able to better judge lights, i.e. be able to see why gavita hps is (on paper anyway) better.



RM3 said:


> If I was growing for yield I would get a 4 foot hood with an HPS and put it in the middle of my booth with the T5's on each side which would give the best of both worlds IMO and I would have the UV & deep blue bulbs in the T5 fixtures as the HPS would supply the reds.


That actually sounds pretty good. I run 600watt on 4x4 and would like a little more light on the edges. 600watt, especially in my gavita tripplestar hood, is better suited for 3.5x3.5 or 3x4. I've considered LED, CFLs, and CMH (210w version) but not T5 yet... probably going to rebuild and reshape my closet but interesting option to consider especially with T5 with such a reach.


----------



## RM3 (Dec 29, 2014)

Sativied said:


> That's the general consensus in the dutch grow forums as well, they call it micro grows. Although we probably have a slightly different interpretation of what a small garden is.
> 
> Yeah I got that, and a little ironic if you indeed claimed T5>HPS because that gavita article is written for the same purpose, to be able to better judge lights, i.e. be able to see why gavita hps is (on paper anyway) better.
> 
> That actually sounds pretty good. I run 600watt on 4x4 and would like a little more light on the edges. 600watt, especially in my gavita tripplestar hood, is better suited for 3.5x3.5 or 3x4. I've considered LED, CFLs, and CMH (210w version) but not T5 yet... probably going to rebuild and reshape my closet but interesting option to consider especially with T5 with such a reach.


Have you ever checked out Lumi's Illumination chamber at that other site I try not to mention, he used T5's as side lighting


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## RM3 (Dec 31, 2014)

Some more pics to illustrate. In this pic I have circle 2 buds, the top bud is 1 foot away from the lights, it is the closest to the lights bud on this plant. The bottom bud circled is 2 feet away from the lights and shaded by several leaves ,,,,,


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## RM3 (Dec 31, 2014)

1st pic is the top bud, 2nd pic is the bottom bud, they are exactly the same size and same structure ,,,,,,,,,, imagine that


----------



## RM3 (Dec 31, 2014)

and yeppers I moved the leaves to get the pic so before anyone thinks I cheated lol


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

.....taps foot waiting for the next guy to state with seasoned authority - "remove or tuck leaves so light can reach the budsites!"


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## genuity (Dec 31, 2014)

Looks like it's not as full as that top bud right?

And that bud is not really shaded,,

Plants look ok though


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

I knew it!

Now that didn't take too long boyz and goyls.


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## chuck estevez (Dec 31, 2014)

should cut those bottom ones off so they don't steal energy from the tops.


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## genuity (Dec 31, 2014)

It's simple,would that lone bud site,have grown better in full direct light?

Yes or no..


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

Someone needs to start a thread stating the Troll-It-Up wisdom over the years.


----------



## genuity (Dec 31, 2014)

You're more than welcome to do so......^^^^benny

Yes or no.....its that easygoing of a answer.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

genuity said:


> It's simple,would that lone bud site,have grown better in full direct light?
> 
> Yes or no..


No

This point really should not have to be stated or discussed anymore. BUT, with each crop of noobs who won't lurk or use the SEARCH feature or have their mind made up because they ingested the same old cannabis forum crap.......it's the SOS, just a different day.

Proved it with an outdoor grown plant. Next page too: http://rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-127

https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/page-126#post-11165602

https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/

Now, I've given you proof IN PICTURES but folks will still hang a sign on a pig and call it a dog.


----------



## natro.hydro (Dec 31, 2014)

Yeah I am sorry but if you are asking me to compare the buds through a pic you should try to keep the zoom and distance from the buds the same. not trying to be a dick but it seems the shaded bud would appear different since it is zoomed/framed differently. 
And I have to agree with genuity I would still consider that canopy level in my garden or atleast close to it enough. 
Everyone has there own ways. I dont cut the bottom braches off expecting a bigger yield. BUT the non main colas fill out more and it makes it as shit ton easier for airflow and watering. Not to mention I dont have to do a partial harvest to let the lower half reach maturity, dont have time for that shit. If she is done I chop her and have one to go in her place, so no time for partial plants in my flower tent because the bottom half wasnt finished.
Just my .02, flame me as you will.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

".....you should try to keep the zoom and distance from the buds the same...... it seems the shaded bud would appear different since it is zoomed/framed differently."

Riddle, Ansel Adams says you can't handle a camera fer shit!


----------



## genuity (Dec 31, 2014)

As long as the pics are up to date,post them...to help your point out.

Cause nothing in them links is more than school girl fighting..
And the misinformation of grade school education.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

genuity said:


> As long as the pics are up to date,post them...to help your point out.


I did. And it's your responsibility to read what I took my sweet time to put together for the sole purpose of giving your type a bonafide education.

READ


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## RM3 (Dec 31, 2014)

How bout this then?


----------



## RM3 (Dec 31, 2014)

and a different angle as per potential shade


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## natro.hydro (Dec 31, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> ".....you should try to keep thd distance from the buds the same...... it seems the shaded bud would appear different since it is zoomed/framed differently."
> 
> Riddle, Ansel Adams says you can't handle a camera fer shit!


They were great pics, but for the purposes of comaprison should try to limit the variables the same... no need to ve a twit about it.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

RM3 said:


> How bout this then?
> 
> View attachment 3322695View attachment 3322696


Too many vareebells - dirty fingernail, ruler held at the wrong height and not perfectly parallel to the axis of the main cola, distracting red ring color....


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

genuity said:


> Cause nothing in them links is more than school girl fighting..
> And the misinformation of grade school education.


Let me see if I have this straight. It's obvious you don't have a clue when it comes to plant processes but you're gonna label fact with grade school misinformation?

deez kids........


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## genuity (Dec 31, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Let me see if I have this straight. It's obvious you don't have a clue when it comes to plant processes but you're gonna label fact with grade school misinformation?
> 
> deez kids........


Hahaha...omg

The "what makes a plant tic mogul"
What makes you think of such things Benny?


What would you like me to answer,that has to do with plants?


----------



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2014)

Happy New Year everybody. May the light of the New Year guide you to wisdom and happiness.

Tio


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## Dr. Who (Jan 2, 2015)

Riddle gave me a heads up PM with a thought about my 2 cents on lighting.
I answered him pvt like and thought,,,,,why not.....I do have some interesting thoughts on the subject to add.

So here you go.....start to finish. 

Hmm, at an early glance, I must say that I agree with your temp zone discovery.
I do about the same in one grow but, my high's are 85 as over that (in years of trying new things) I find the plant begins the "noon time lag" thing. This is related to the temps of mid to later day as I learned in college class. I do "limited" Co2 supplementation. Keep in mind that at 90F your plants will begin to slow growth at significant amounts.

My RH is kept low at around 45 to 50 to help in mold control (haven't had any in years). That's my choice.

Lighting is important in Lumen's and Nm range. If your supplying the lumen's properly, the way (or how) they are supplied is not so important.....Nm range is very important to many factors in growth.
I'm a lollypopping man and don't care to bother with way low popcorn budding....I tend to do a SCROG sort of thing and can get 1.5 per plant in a 4x4 area very easy.

Due to the size of our grows we use HID for better area lumen displacement/intensity.....The cost to effect ratio's are very carefully figured.
The use of T-5 lighting is very much a part of our Vegging! only the last 1-2 weeks is carried out under HID before the move to the flower rooms.

We can discuss more later...game starting....
Good to talk with those who know how to grow!

Doc


----------



## Dr. Who (Jan 2, 2015)

Wowser..GREAT GAME! *(MSU vs BAYLOR)*

Anyway...great thread you started there....read the whole thing.
I agree with your lighting ideas. Your giving the "intensity" needed and adjusting your light bands with the very well selected nm or bandwidth of lights.
I could not agree more with your choice of aquarium T-5 bulbs for the exact reason you state!
You've really got one of the best T-5 grows I've seen in YEARS! if I were to be growing in not a 'comercial" form as now.....I would have enjoyed playing far more with T-5 lighting.......I may just dedicate a space to it in my personal "test" area. I've got no shortage of available 8 spot fixtures to play with.....interesting that your area is at,, mmm, guessing here,,,1425 - 1465 watts of electrical use in those 3 8 spotters? How big an area is that? No shortage of intensity with 3 panels...

I too elevate my pots to be off the ground to better control pot temp zone averages. Very much so in summer DWC runs.

I still like my RH where I have it,,but do like your ratio relationship idea so much,,,,I'm going to do some runs in the test grow and employ that one! A simple 20x36 walled off and completely isolated at the back of my first building.....I do all my testing back there.....so some simple stomata tests on this will be fun...

Plants look great man....

Doc


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## Dr. Who (Jan 2, 2015)

I tend tell folks to use HID. I make that call on the amount of electric costs that can be managed. Spending as you do for specific tubes tends to be far out of reach for the average Joe you find around here most of the time. Being right as you are on the lack of importance on how the light "intensity" is delivered vs the Nm range to be used. Is lost on many around here.
I run T-5 lighting at full blue from seedling to 1-2 weeks before the flip (depending on the look of the plant and the root mass size. If I feel the root mass is not developed enough I go the 2 weeks). I switch to HPS, do small and I do mean small bump to the P&K, like .5 - .8 and run that to 2 weeks into flower. At that point it's back to MH and employ some 730nm range far red Pfr LED's running the last 5 -10 min of lights on to 5-10min after lights out.
The use of the PFR LED's allows for an extra 1.5hrs of "on" time lighting with out ANY adverse affect on blooming. In fact it reduces bloom time and increases yields at a rate that I could not ignore for the commercial size grows we run (20 full time patients and 2 dispensaries).

Here are the LED's I tested and use in our grows. Scroll down to the *The Flower Initiator* section and read that. In my testing of the 10 watt model (we run the 20's in the big room's) I found I liked a 15 min run time at 5min lights on and 10min lights off. I found some strains (High % and Landrace Sativa's) react better to 10min on / 5min off.....I suspect that to be a factor related to a more equatorial plant that gets longer "sunset" nm range lighting, just a theory.

http://www.led4growth.com/All Lighting Products.htm#EXPERIMENTAL PRODUCTS

As you can see, I too am a study on lighting fanatic. I know U.Ben was ,, but, _seems_ to feel the subject has been fully researched. Till a cpl of years ago I thought that Jorge too, was the best stated on lighting. I began more looking around and called up Ed R. to ask a cpl of questions on a non-related subject and he (knowing how intense I got about lighting) broached the subject of the PAR and PFR lighting experiments he was doing......Bingo! That got my attention and off I went on that. Reading everything I could find I soon learned that most of the college level research was being focused on the PAR spectrum with low to moderate (and not very focused) looks at the 730nm PFR range, till I found some foot notes in a study from Oregon. A quick call to some Grad research students and Prof friends at MSU got the ball rolling on a more in-depth study they conducted in their Lighting lab by creating more PFR specific panels and that's how I ended up where I am now....some years later.....
I still have not tried some LED lighting more REALITY wise "tuned" to flowering spectrum's. I find this too to be of some intrest. I have seen test results that have employed this idea as a "strap on" addition to HID to increase the actual PAR or flowering (more red) nm ranges in LED's. Interesting and maybe down the road for testing by me yet.

This chart show the nm ranges of some normal LED's on the subject vs MH HID in effective chlorophyl production.







Here is a simple, yet interesting chart showing Nm range needs of MM (don't know why they had the human eye range in there).







Now here is a charting of the more focused LED (to PAR lighting) result.







The thing that gives me pause here is the almost "lack" of spectrum from 375 to 540. Ok, they make these as supplements to HID.....But note the total lack of PFR ranges!!!!

While these are said to help start or initiate bloom. I really wonder how effective it goes beyond that first week of flowering onset?

Any way, I'm beginning to ramble....

I wish I could do more outside,,,,,but a true outdoor finish is difficult at best up here.

Doc


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 2, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> http://www.led4growth.com/All Lighting Products.htm#EXPERIMENTAL PRODUCTS
> 
> As you can see, I too am a study on lighting fanatic. I know U.Ben was ,, but, _seems_ to feel the subject has been fully researched.
> Doc


Make sure your PayPal is up do date and in good standing before ordering.


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## Dr. Who (Jan 2, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Make sure your PayPal is up do date and in good standing before ordering.


Hunh,,,so that's where my money goes......


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## Knott Collective (Jan 4, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> No
> 
> This point really should not have to be stated or discussed anymore. BUT, with each crop of noobs who won't lurk or use the SEARCH feature or have their mind made up because they ingested the same old cannabis forum crap.......it's the SOS, just a different day.
> 
> ...


Agree 100% UB. More proof in pictures below. These are Super Lemon Haze late in week 8 with two more full weeks to go. Running 1000w HPS. Pure coco. Mostly Jack's ferts. With CO2. We have not plucked a single leaf other than the few that get damaged from time to time. We don't sacrifice the plant to the late flower PK booster burns. We do increase the PK in late weeks for better flowering but we just don't give up the N, Ca and Mg to do so. I've said it before and I'll repeat it one more time - healthy plants make better buds.

Pics were taken just after lights off with my camera so sorry for the blurred shot. But I wanted to show how the lower part of our plants yield. The buds you see are substantial. Almost every single bud is larger than a walnut, most are approaching plum and baseball size - remember two more weeks to go! As dense and yummy as almost anything up top but the main colas (of course). Those are 5 gallon tall pots and 54" tomato cages for height/size comparison purposes.

If we lollipooped these babies we would lose a significant amount of production per plant! We don't defoliate and we don't lollipop 'cause in our experience it simply lowers our overall yield. Doesn't make the buds better either. Check it out:


An earlier pic of same run. I think this was taken at about 6 weeks:


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 4, 2015)

That says it all! But you don't think that's gonna change the minds of those who have been brainwashed by The Herd, do you? 

Happy harvest! Oh, and try the secondary harvest drill and post some pix. If you haven't read my dittys, that means cutting or harvesting the fat colas at a point where they transition from big solid colas or collections of nuggets into the smaller ones. Then place the plants back under the lights for a while. You wouldn't harvest an apple tree all at once, eh?


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## Knott Collective (Jan 4, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> ... You wouldn't harvest an apple tree all at once, eh?


No, but then again I can't get a donation of over $3k for each bushel of apples I pick 


Seriously, I'll give it a try sometime but in this instance we've got a run that goes into the room the day after it's cut, cleaned and prepared for more yummy goodness. Skywalker OG going in. Love that strain.


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## MrMoores (Jan 4, 2015)

How long in to flower should I keep my MH in before switching to HPS, I know from the previous posts on this thread there's a lot of emphasis being put on the mixture of light, but it's one or the other in my situation
Btw great read all the way thru this thread


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 4, 2015)

said earlier first 2 weeks bloom hps then switch to mh for the rest of flowering time..i wouldve thought the other way around, but maybe the hps is only good for the initial stretch and to promote flowering, then blue spec the rest of the way to keep nodes closer and leaves greener..is that wright doc??


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## Dr. Who (Jan 5, 2015)

It's your choice. I might run both,,,,if you can. Mr.Moores states he can't.
Yeah, going back to MH does some for node spacing. You must remember that most (or the fastest part) of the stretch is in those first 2 weeks. I mainly use the MH for what I feel is a wider range of terp/thc/cbd/cbn production. The more UVB available enhances D8 & D9 Thc along with the terps. It's now being discovered that some terp profiles have an effect on the "type/style/intensity" of the buzz you get. Same for medical effects.....What I'm playing with is an attempt to increase certain terp profiles and cross reference those levels to differing effects reported by Lab testing for the profiles and from patient reports (yes, they are informed _after_ the testing as to what it was for. You don't want test subjects "looking" for a difference in what their testing. It effects the persons ability to really give subjective reports). The use of certain chems (nutrients) effects terp profiles to. I'm doing that also...

Many long term growers use MH only.....Rev comes to mind off the top of my head.....The use of a more balanced spectrum works well.....Many like to mimic as closely the sun's spectrum. I can identify with that idea also. Some of THE BEST I've smoked has been outdoor bud. Hell outdoors finish's faster and with better quality in my book too....I run a few outdoors every year just for personal. Proper finishing is hard up here .....If I recall,,,,some of the early disp. in Cal. _only_ took in outdoor bud due to what they deemed as quality issues with some of the indoor they were offered. Anyway. The use of Plasma lighting and Induction lighting has a better spectral mimic of the sun.....I have trouble with the cost and effective area coverage for my needs......I do plan to try it in my test area someday....."So much to do and so little time to do it".......

If running more HPS is what you feel you need to do in bloom. Maybe try flipping the HPS to a MH at say week 5 or 6 and get that little bump of the UV range and "see" what happens for your self......I do what I do for me.....That's what works for "me".....Try it if you want......I'm not a god, nor is what I say gospel.....I will never stop learning and neither should you....

What the guys are talking about above is true also.
I do lollypop but, that is due to the Scrog type of thing I do on some plants as it forms an "umbrella" like light shield blocking out lower growth....The point being is if you don't _try things for your self. _You'll not know if it works or not......Research is gold...take the time to....

Doc


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## Fease (Jan 5, 2015)

So much interesting information here.  good read. Fun for a newb like me to ponder if I'm giving a plant to much light, temp, air. Seem to be the most important stimuli besides having some N in the soil. 

I've grown my plants mostly at 24" with 600w hps. I let them grow up to 18" close for the first time last week and they actually didn't seem to grow as fast as they were. Growth Measurements were smaller. It's one of those fancy blue and red hps. Got for cheap, hope it actually has some blues. At least I keep the temps almost the same as riddle and the plants like that hopefully. Anyways, thx for the info. Have fun experimenting. I'll be reading.


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## RM3 (Jan 5, 2015)

I have now flipped several plants that were gaslight vegged and thus far the initial stretch in the first 3 weeks has been 3 inches on all of em


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## MrMoores (Jan 5, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> said earlier first 2 weeks bloom hps then switch to mh for the rest of flowering time..i wouldve thought the other way around, but maybe the hps is only good for the initial stretch and to promote flowering, then blue spec the rest of the way to keep nodes closer and leaves greener..is that wright doc??





TheChemist77 said:


> said earlier first 2 weeks bloom hps then switch to mh for the rest of flowering time..i wouldve thought the other way around, but maybe the hps is only good for the initial stretch and to promote flowering, then blue spec the rest of the way to keep nodes closer and leaves greener..is that wright doc??


Blues(MH) prevent stretch, most stretching occurs at first 2 weeks of 12/12 switch, reds promote bud growth and immitate the Sun in the final phase of a plants flowering cycle. 
Taking this in to consideration it seems the orthodox approach has common sense on its side, Im not nearly as educated on light as you guys but for some one lookin for quantity (quality is always there) is this the best approach?


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## RM3 (Jan 6, 2015)

MrMoores said:


> Blues(MH) prevent stretch, most stretching occurs at first 2 weeks of 12/12 switch, reds promote bud growth and immitate the Sun in the final phase of a plants flowering cycle.
> Taking this in to consideration it seems the orthodox approach has common sense on its side, Im not nearly as educated on light as you guys but for some one lookin for quantity (quality is always there) is this the best approach?


Not completely sure what your question is here ? But no matter your approach a mixed spectrum is best. In no way does an HPS imitate the sun !


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## RM3 (Jan 6, 2015)

Now that the TE has finished its 3 inch stretch, yeppers nothin like Gaslight Veg to control the stretch LOL , I thought we could revisit our little buds. Tis gettin harder to see the bottom one ,,,,


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## RM3 (Jan 6, 2015)

But that little bottom bitch is still keepin up, and actually is fillin in better than the top one 
The top bud ,,,


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## RM3 (Jan 6, 2015)

The bottom bud ,,,,,


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## RM3 (Jan 6, 2015)

another shot of the bottom bud fillin in ,,,


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## MrMoores (Jan 6, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Not completely sure what your question is here ? But no matter your approach a mixed spectrum is best. In no way does an HPS imitate the sun !


I asked how long in to flower I should keep my MH up before switching to HPS, fukin hard work gettin a straight answer


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## RM3 (Jan 6, 2015)

MrMoores said:


> I asked how long in to flower I should keep my MH up before switching to HPS, fukin hard work gettin a straight answer


As a way of reducing stretch, first 3 weeks, also use the MH in the last 2 weeks to beef up trics, even better to run both


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## polo the don (Jan 6, 2015)

QUESTION:



MrMoores said:


> How long in to flower should I keep my MH in before switching to HPS?


ANSWER:




Dr. Who said:


> It's your choice. I might run both,,,,
> 
> MH does some for node spacing. You must remember that most (or the fastest part) of the stretch is in those first 2 weeks.
> 
> ...





RM3 said:


> a mixed spectrum is best.





MrMoores said:


> Blues(MH) prevent stretch, most stretching occurs at first 2 weeks of 12/12 switch, reds promote bud growth


No need to be rude. 


MrMoores said:


> fukin hard work gettin a straight answer


Personally, if my setup permitted, I would run MH the first 2-3 weeks after the switch to 12/12 then HPS untill the last 2 weeks of flowering when I'd switch back to MH till finish.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 6, 2015)

MrMoores said:


> I asked how long in to flower I should keep my MH up before switching to HPS, fukin hard work gettin a straight answer


The straight answer is within.


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## UncleBuck (Jan 6, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I guess Phillips has it all wrong then, designing those inefficient HID lights for horticulture purposes while their T5s are actually better grow lights.
> 
> If you would have claimed T5 can measure up to HPS in terms of yield... but this talk of T5 being better than HPS is getting old fast... speaking of old, that table is based on 30-year old data.
> 
> Also ironic how you link that popular article from Gavita.


bro, do you even know what it takes to make a plant tick?


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## Fease (Jan 7, 2015)

RM3 said:


> I like my rootzone in the 60's, my ambient in the 70's and my canopy in the 90's
> 
> I use heat index to determine humidity, I like my heat index to be 4 points above ambient
> 
> ...


I grow in a similar style open room. With the same temps. Humidity is at 30% or less during day and 45%+ at night at 62 degrees ambient. I'm not sure what you mean with your humidity, I don't know how to calculate it. I kinda wonder to look it up maybe. My plants stink up the whole house, at 5 week veg. Not the best or biggest 5 weekers but doing much better in the last 2 weeks, tripled in size at the least. I'm not trying to make it stink. I was kinda guessing maybe it's because my humidity is so low and that is the difference here. What's yours? Some cannabis(or most?) is an arid plant"weed" and like other plants it creates trichomes to protect it self with a stable moisture environment using them as the buffer. My plants have visible fuzz on them, ovbiously not full of goupy goodness but I'm guessing these are trichome beginnings and also the reason my plants stink before flower. Or is it lights and technique? Also wondering about early amber too and if it's connected at all.


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## RM3 (Jan 7, 2015)

It's Everything


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## dbdweller (Jan 7, 2015)

Ok friends you need to take into effect so many things as to weight.Did your seeds come from a hermi plant? clone/fem seed and so much more. They all matter to the final out come and yields. The major thing is light. LIGHT LIGHT LIGHT. You can not get 3 lbs out of 1 400w light. Advance growers can get 1 to 1 1/2 grams pr watt.. and most will get 1/2 gram pr watt. Fact.Your girl has the POTENTIAL to grow to that. It does not mean you will get it either. Lights/air/water and everything else matters. Your girl needs 6 hours of light to maintain and needs more then 32w to stay alive. Will she max out her Yield NO. Thats why you train your girls to get the max out. thats why someone who trains gets more then someone who does not. Lst/Hst/mainline/and everything else help you get the MAX. 
Your plants need at least 600w for co2 to even take effect / and why it needs to be higher then the plants. 
Your temps can be high when keeping the humidity down. Crap i grow in 3 places, California,Colorado and the tropics. in the tropics the leaves alone are better then 110 outside.
There are so many factors that get your yields it's not funny. Thats why experience is key. What grows well in the tropics does not grow well in high altitudes. A seed from a hermi plant has effects on the growth of the off spring. Harvesting when its milky in stead of amber effect the high as well as the weight. but that becomes a choice then. Do i want a body high or a head high.
Your job is to learn and experiment. Do i feed them pk 13/14 for one week or 3 weeks, do i keep the lights out for 2 days before switching to 12/12 do i want the strech in flower and do veg 24/7 or keep them compact due to my grow size.
The ones who have some grow time i pay attention to. Not that i am going to do it word for word.. but what can i take out of this and how can i dial my girls in.
Keep doing what you are doing and remember
HEALTHY PLANTS ARE HAPPY PATIENTS LOL
Peace out


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## RM3 (Jan 7, 2015)

The truth is that only about 1% of the folks reading my stuff will get it, it's sad but it's true. And 99% will continue to believe and spew the "normal" forum rhetoric. Cram light up the plants ass if you want more, more is better, more is more. When the truth is that Less is More. 

To those of you in that 1%, enjoy and you're welcome


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## RM3 (Jan 7, 2015)




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## polo the don (Jan 7, 2015)

RM3 said:


> The truth is that only about 1% of the folks reading my stuff will get it, it's sad but it's true. And 99% will continue to believe and spew the "normal" forum rhetoric. Cram light up the plants ass if you want more, more is better, more is more. When the truth is that Less is More.
> 
> To those of you in that 1%, enjoy and you're welcome


I'm working my ass off to be part of that 1%


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## MrMoores (Jan 7, 2015)

polo the don said:


> I'm working my ass off to be part of that 1%


Lol you fukin lesbian stop kissin ass


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 7, 2015)

i think im going to run 1 600 watt hps and 1 600 watt mh for this run and see if there is a diference from running 2 hps's. i may have to rotate the bulbs once a week, not sure yet, that would suck. but the plants would get a more even spectrum this run.


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## UncleBuck (Jan 7, 2015)

RM3 said:


> The truth is that only about 1% of the folks reading my stuff will get it, it's sad but it's true. And 99% will continue to believe and spew the "normal" forum rhetoric. Cram light up the plants ass if you want more, more is better, more is more. When the truth is that Less is More.
> 
> To those of you in that 1%, enjoy and you're welcome


we're all just so far below your level.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 8, 2015)

UncleBuck said:


> I*'m so far below your level.*


So there is a thread of honesty running thru your veins, eh? Never thought I'd see the day.


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## RM3 (Jan 15, 2015)

My 1% statement was not about a level, it was not me sayin I'm better or smarter than others. It was about being open minded and willing to try new things without a biased attitude. If you believe or accept as is things like more light is the only way, you will be limited by it. If you have an open mind you will be more willing to try things out to see for yourself and you will discover things that improve your results.


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## RM3 (Jan 15, 2015)

Been awhile, so I thought we could revisit that little bud growing in the shade LOL 

As you can see the TE has grown a tad and made more shade over that bud, hell it is gettin harder to even see the Koala Bear


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## RM3 (Jan 15, 2015)

The Bud up top ,,,,,


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## chuck estevez (Jan 15, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Been awhile, so I thought we could revisit that little bud growing in the shade LOL
> 
> As you can see the TE has grown a tad and made more shade over that bud, hell it is gettin harder to even see the Koala Bear
> View attachment 3332054


your leaves are praying, just sayin.


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## RM3 (Jan 15, 2015)

The bottom bud, 1st pic with flash 2nd without (so you can see no direct light hittin it)


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## RM3 (Jan 15, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> your leaves are praying, just sayin.


yeppers there is a hot spot there when the lights come on, takes bout an hour to settle down LOL


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 16, 2015)

We can throw out all the science and real time pictures we want but The Herd will still parrot misguided forum paradigms. They _feel good_ "knowing" that the reason lower buds don't fatten up is because of the lack of light. I see such statements almost on a daily basis here. 90% of them are from 'new members'.


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## RM3 (Jan 16, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> We can throw out all the science and real time pictures we want but The Herd will still parrot misguided forum paradigms. They _feel good_ "knowing" that the reason lower buds don't fatten up is because of the lack of light. I see such statements almost on a daily basis here. 90% of them are from 'new members'.


Yes, I know, but I also know there will be a few folks that find this and get it


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## pineappleman420 (Jan 17, 2015)

I have been looking into it and i was going to experiment with your veg timing. The question i Have is im at 17 days into my grow from seed and my light schedule is 18/6. If i switch now is it going to stress my kids out or are they going to be just fine, just getting the proper sleep?


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 17, 2015)

pineappleman420 said:


> I have been looking into it and i was going to experiment with your veg timing. The question i Have is im at 17 days into my grow from seed and my light schedule is 18/6. If i switch now is it going to stress my kids out or are they going to be just fine, just getting the proper sleep?


ive read that a plant determines its gender between the 2nd=4th set of true leaves, so the plants at 17 days should know their gender. i dont think changing ur veg time could cause any problems or stress, as outdoors the light and dark periods change daily..


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## pineappleman420 (Jan 17, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> ive read that a plant determines its gender between the 2nd=4th set of true leaves, so the plants at 17 days should know their gender. i dont think changing ur veg time could cause any problems or stress, as outdoors the light and dark periods change daily..


I see... Thanks for the input.


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

I tried the coffin approach about 10 years ago.. I even tried putting a few actinics in... granted it was t-8, not t-5... but still.

I went back to HPS. Something about the spectrum of HPS causes it to flower faster. (it could even be the dim far-red glow during cooldown causing phytochromes to convert to Pr faster)

It's been my theory since that the spectral yellow, amber, and orange in particular is what makes the HPS spectrum so good for flowering, and that red and blue, while both necessary, aren't needed as much as yellow. This is for a few reasons. Red and blue photons have very poor penetration through chlorophyll, while yellow has very good penetration. This makes red and blue good food for top canopy level, but yellow food for shaded leaves. Also, When red is filtered by the top layer, the yellow alone causes a shade avoidance effect by converting Pfr to Pr in the lower branches, causing them to stretch until they see unshaded light(red). This in effect calibrates the "Tree" shape of the plant.

Another very important characteristic of a flowering light is the gradient between 650-750nm. If it's an upward slope (incandescent), you will only get stretch. HPS has a R:FR ratio of about 2:1, while most fluorescent tend to be much higher (0 far-red), making them better for veg.


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## natro.hydro (Jan 18, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> I tried the coffin approach about 10 years ago.. I even tried putting a few actinics in... granted it was t-8, not t-5... but still.
> 
> I went back to HPS. Something about the spectrum of HPS causes it to flower faster. (it could even be the dim far-red glow during cooldown causing phytochromes to convert to Pr faster)
> 
> ...


Please dont take this as me calling bs.
But I would really like to know where you read that, if it is some common law of plant growth than nevermind, but I had never heard yellow was more effective so if you have a good link to read on that would be appreciated


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 18, 2015)

Is it my understanding that only red and far red light is capable of penetrating the canopy.


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

Pretty sure it is not the yellow light IMO (based on all I have read) the reason that HPS works is the sheer power of bombarded photons and that the plants adapt to it. With recent technical advances in LED lights it seems most greenhouses are switching to em as seen in that vid that I posted, but here is yet another example,,,







*Giving plants the right amount of light*
Date:
April 8, 2013
Source:
Chalmers University of Technology
Summary:
Enormous amounts of energy are wasted in greenhouses where our food is grown as a result of the plants receiving too much and the wrong kind of light. This can also stress and damage the plants. Researchers are working on a globally unique method to measure how much and what type of light plants want.

Current greenhouses use what are known as high pressure sodium lamps, which are basically the same type of lamps that are used for street lights. They generally only have two positions, on or off.

"Everything in modern greenhouses is very high tech except for lighting," says Anna-Maria Carstensen, who is a PhD student in automatic control at Chalmers. "Temperature and nutrition are meticulously controlled. Lighting regulation, however, lags far behind."

The light spectrum provided by high pressure sodium lamps corresponds very poorly to the spectrum plants use during photosynthesis (see image). Plants do not receive very much of the blue and red light that they need the most. *They do, however, receive a great deal of infrared light, which is harmful to some crops, and yellow light, which the plants cannot utilize to any great extent.*

from here,
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2013/04/130408084850.htm


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

A very good explanation of the ways some plants use "other" spectrums ,,,,

*Plant Pigments *
Plants have different things in their cells that enable them to absorb light. The most common ones we find in the majority of plants are Chlorophyll A and Chlorophyll B. Below we will briefly discuss the main pigments found in plant cells and relate them to the light spectrum.


*The light spectrum.*
*Chlorophyll*
There are actually more than one kind of chlorophyll, but not all are present in all plants. In most plants they have at least Chlorophyll A and often chlorophyll B. Other Chlorophylls, which we won't discuss here, are: Chlorophyll cl, Chlorophyllc2, Chlorophyll d.

Chlorophyll's are arranged in something called "photosystems" which are in the thylakoid membranes of chloroplasts. The main function of chlorophyll is to absorb light energy and transfer it to the reaction center chlorophyll of the photosystem.

*Chlorophyll a* has an approximate absorption peak of 665 Nm and 465 Nm.

*Chlorophyll b* has an approximate absorption peak of 640 Nm and 450 Nm.

*Accessory Pigments*
Accessory pigments are other pigments that are also able to absorb light. Chlorophyll a & b are green and are able to best absorb light in the 450 nm (violet-blue) and 650 nm (red) area of the light spectrum. Well, that leaves (haha) the green, yellow and orange parts of the spectrum unusable. This is why plants have extra pigments (colours), in order to take in light from different wavelengths that chlorophyll is not good at absorbing.

*Carotene* is an orange pigment capapble of photosynthesis. This pigment transmits light energy to chlorophyll. As well as photosynthesis, these pigments also help protect against too much light, photoinhibition.

*Phaeophytin a* are gray-brown in colour.

*Phaeophytin b* are yellow-brown.

*Xanthophyll* are yellow pigments in the carotenoid group. These pigments seem to absorb best at 400-530nm. These are involved with photosynthesis with chlorophyll. Chlorophyll is often much more abundant than xanthophylls, and this is why the leaves are still a green colour. When fall arrives in many countries and the leaves change colour, the chlorophyll "dies back" and the xanthophylls are more apparent in the yellow colour you see (like a maple tree)

*-The Xanthophyll cycle* is a wondeful skill a plant has. In order to protect itself from absorbing too much light, and thus causing photoinhibition, Xanthophyll cycle converts pigments that do not quench energy into ones that do. When a plant recieves too much light, the xanthophyll cycle changes violoxanthin to antheraxanthin and zeaxanthin which are photoprotective pigments.

*Anthocyanin* pigments are often red, purple or blue. These pigments have been said to help a plant against light stress and act to help protect a plant from blue-green and UV light. Cacti do not have these, they have Betalain instead.

*Betalain* These pigments are found in Caryophyllales (cacti and beets for example). They are often a red-yellow-purple colour that is often found in flower colour, but it can also be found in leaves, stems, fruits and roots of these plants as well. It is not really known what the exact purpose of these pigments are.

*-Betacyanins* are reddish to violet Betalain pigments. They absorb light best at 535 nm.

*-Betaxanthins* are yellow to orange Betalain pigments. They absorb light best at 480 nm.

*In relation to Photosynthesis*
It would seem, in my opinion, that given the various pigments, and the areas they are most abundant, that Chlorophyll a & b, and to a lesser extent, the various carotenoids (such as carotene and xanthophyll) would be the most productive in the absoprtion of light for photosynthesis. When applying this to cultivation and artificial lights, it would seem logical to choose lights that peak in the 430-470nm and 640-680nm range, to allow the 2 main chlorophyll types to gather the most energy. Light in the blue spectrum may also be a little stronger to allow the carotenes and xanthophylls to absorb more light as well.

From here,
http://www.kadasgarden.com/Cpigments.html


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

A good PDF of a study done on sunflowers with different bands of light, including yellow,,,,

http://www.aka.fi/Tiedostot/Tiedostot/Viksu/Viksu2003/Kiri Hamakerin työ.pdf


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

As stated earlier in the thread, it is not my intent to say that Flouros are better than HPS. The intent of the thread is to help growers better understand light and how to get more out of whatever light they are using


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

RM3 said:


> As stated earlier in the thread, it is not my intent to say that Flouros are better than HPS. The intent of the thread is to help growers better understand light and how to get more out of whatever light they are using


after reading all the above, it makes u want to go led.. However i am not convinced led tech is up to par yet, they seem to be overpriced and incapeable of producing yields per square meter as hid lights..all the big grow ops up here still swear by hps,mh and t5 lighting.. i want to try led as my electric bills are out of hand, but the purchace price and if they dont produce like my hid's id be fucked and growing legally is not very cost efective as the tax is more than my income..if laws stay this way, i think most growers will prefer the illegal method as that is were the money is.


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

i truly wonder how some of the big grow ops aford to stay in busines, just last year 5 friends in another medical state stopped growing as it was no longer producing money and they had been growing for 20+ years, but w/ legal med it brought the cost of legal or ilegal weed down to little to no profits.


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> i truly wonder how some of the big grow ops aford to stay in busines, just last year 5 friends in another medical state stopped growing as it was no longer producing money and they had been growing for 20+ years, but w/ legal med it brought the cost of legal or ilegal weed down to little to no profits.


IMO it will come down to better quality as the legal thing continues to grow

60 Minutes just did a story that featured a commercial grow op here in Colorado and she made like 25 million this year, she had 4 warehouse grows


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

RM3 said:


> As stated earlier in the thread, it is not my intent to say that Flouros are better than HPS. The intent of the thread is to help growers better understand light and how to get more out of whatever light they are using


if u can find me an led w/ a low purchace price that u promise will produce like my hid's in a 4x6 area at less than 1000 watts please let me know..i just cant aford to take a risk, though i really want to try led. or maybe ill just have to wait, posibly years for the prices to come down wile their performance goes up..i have friends who have bought led lights 3-4 yrs ago and the lights are in the garage or dumpsters as they were literally useless, but those were the 1 watt diodes, now they have 5 watt diodes the question is if the spectrum is right and which brand is worth the price?


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## lmoore2680 (Jan 18, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> if u can find me an led w/ a low purchace price that u promise will produce like my hid's in a 4x6 area at less than 1000 watts please let me know..i just cant aford to take a risk, though i really want to try led. or maybe ill just have to wait, posibly years for the prices to come down wile their performance goes up..i have friends who have bought led lights 3-4 yrs ago and the lights are in the garage or dumpsters as they were literally useless, but those were the 1 watt diodes, now they have 5 watt diodes the question is if the spectrum is right and which brand is worth the price?


AreA 51s are great from what I personally have seen but like I am still a little skeptical about them

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Rollitup mobile app


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

RM3, U of all know how wattage efects yields, u run 1000 watts of t5's to cover a 5x5, and ur doing it great!! im running 1200 watts over a 4x6 just flowering and yields are good but i hope to get better with knowledge gained by u guys here that know much more than me.. Also thank u for the knowledge shared!


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

25 million!! Damn legally, im lucky to break even, however i have ilegal friends who put me into proffits


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

some growers on riu are irogant pricks, however its the guys like u who share their grow knowledge to help others bring their yields up and these are the ones who i thank. RM3, SATIEVED, DR.WHO, U guys are the reason i come here, pluss some others


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

If you look at the absorbance curve of chlorophyll a and b, you'll notice that blue and red are absorbed the most and *absorbed the most is another way of saying penetrated the least.*

Far-red (700nm-800nm) and spectral yellow have poor absorption by chlorophyll, and thus very good penetration.

Anything that gets absorbed well has poor penetration.









Uncle Ben said:


> Is it my understanding that only red and far red light is capable of penetrating the canopy.


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

I came up with it myself after watching all the red+blue led grows fail so hard and after the gro-lux tubes seemed to have the same negative effects on flowering. NO MATTER HOW MUCH LIGHT WAS USED.

660nm red may be the highest 'quality' color in that it causes the most amount of phytochrome to be in Pfr state (85% in the active form), but it's an oversimplication to say that high Pfr good, low Pfr bad.

When people started showing such amazing results with 3000k leds, it vindicated my theory that yellow light was the key that was missing. Now I'm trying to prove the theory wrong rather than collecting evidence to see if it's right.

The real question you've gotta ask yourself is if yellow is so bad, *what is it that makes HPS so good?*? (not what makes it so bad)



natro.hydro said:


> Please dont take this as me calling bs.
> But I would really like to know where you read that, if it is some common law of plant growth than nevermind, but I had never heard yellow was more effective so if you have a good link to read on that would be appreciated


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

think of the difference between UV-A and UV-B and your eyes. Even though UV-B photons are more damaging, they are unlikely to damage your retina, because they will never penetrate your cornea. Instead, UV-B will turn your cornea gray.

UV-A has poor absorbance in the cornea and thus it's more likely it will end up in the retina.

*PENETRATION IS THE INVERSE OF ABSORBANCE!*


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## genuity (Jan 18, 2015)

I just love information.....


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

This is exactly what LED growers have been discovering over the last few years. One of the issues with R+B lighting is that it's impossible to bombard the plant with enough sheer power in R+B alone without burning the top layer of canopy with radiation. Think of yellow like the microwave while red is like a cast iron pan. You need both colors to hit all layers of canopy and to properly calibrate shade avoidance.

It would be like trying to sear a large roast all the way to medium rare on the cast iron on high. Great at cooking the outside, but in order to get enough power to cook the inside, you'll end up with an inch of black.

It doesn't matter if you get the most powerful red and blue leds in the world.. you won't beat the results of 3000k 80CRI warm white leds using only red and blue alone. I've yet to see it. *Until I do, I'm led to conclude that the spectrum of 3000k warm white leds is superior for producing buds to 2 narrow bands centered at 660nm and 440nm.*

Keep in mind that my theories are based on what I see with my own eyes. I used to think what you guys think about red and blue, but now think something else!! What I'm currently seeing is that red is food for the top, and yellow is food for the bottom.










RM3 said:


> Pretty sure it is not the yellow light IMO (based on all I have read) the reason that *HPS works is the sheer power *of bombarded photons and that the plants adapt to it. With recent technical advances in LED lights it seems most greenhouses are switching to em as seen in that vid that I posted


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

Sorry to steal this thread, but keep in mind that different plant species have different spectrum requirements.

Shade plants like lettuce will do just fine with only R+B, because they have no shade avoidance effect and are not tall enough that the top layer blocks the lower layers of leaves from absorbing red. Lettuce is the low hanging fruit for R+B, and it's what you've been seeing the mainstream convert over to LED for already.

Lettuce also benefits from the 660nm red in that lettuce seeds like it for germinating. (darkness or 730nm will inhibit germination)

Throw theory out the window. People have been trying all this crap for the last decade now that high power led arrays make it cheap to do these experiments. White kicks ass for flowering weed, and R+B sucks, thus I can only conclude that it kicks ass BECAUSE it's white, not in spite of it, and that R+B sucks because it's not white. The plant uses all wavelengths between 400nm and 700nm to produce photosynthesis, and tall sun-loving plants like all the wavelengths.


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Sorry to steal this thread, but keep in mind that different plant species have different spectrum requirements.
> 
> Shade plants like lettuce will do just fine with only R+B, because they have no shade avoidance effect and are not tall enough that the top layer blocks the lower layers of leaves from absorbing red. Lettuce is the low hanging fruit for R+B, and it's what you've been seeing the mainstream convert over to LED for already.
> 
> ...


I do not see your input as stealing the thread, rather I see it as adding to the conversation. While we don't agree on everything, I believe we do agree on most things  

IE: when I played with LED lights I went ALL white ( in fact I just posted the results of that test in my ICMAG thread) and if I was to play again I would go in the 4100K region with something like these ,,,
https://www.energyavenue.com/LED-Light-Bulbs/PAR38-LED-Lamps?start=0&display=24
I tend to play with things that most would not consider LOL


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

For those interested in the actual math, theories and laws there is a very good book on photosynthesis here ,,,,,

http://www.life.illinois.edu/govindjee/photosynBook/


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

And yet another good read on the subject here ,,,

http://www.controlledenvironments.org/Light1994Conf/1_5_Bugbee/Bugbee text.htm


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## RM3 (Jan 18, 2015)

For those that wanna go crazy with it here is a google related search with all kinds of stuff 

https://www.google.com/search?biw=1024&bih=646&q=related:www.life.illinois.edu/govindjee/photosynBook/Chapter10.pdf+photon+penetration+vs+absorbance+in+plants&tbo=1&sa=X&ei=nQu8VKjBHcSbyASq74GYDA&ved=0CEkQHzAG


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

Photosynthesis is only one half of the story.

Plants, like animals, have color vision that is independent from the pigments used to produce photosynthesis. Instead of 3 cones that excite the brain electrically, they use 2 complementary pigments, phytochrome-R (the inactive form) and phytochrome-FR (the active form). When one form absorbs a photon, it becomes the other form.







Conveniently (or coincidentally), the absorbance peak of chlorophyll a and the absorbance peak of Pr happen to line up perfectly. This allows leaves to see how "good" the light is, where 660nm is "perfect", and 730nm is "completely shaded". A 660nm light source will cause %Pfr (percent of total phytochromes in Pfr form) to reach %85. a 730nm source will cause it to reach near 0%.

When a lower branch has a low %Pfr, it stretches until it sees a higher %Pfr.

The correlation between %Pfr and stretch rate is logarithmic. You will get exponentially more stretch by introducing far-red to a grow.







If you want proof that 730nm causes stretch, get some high powered 730nm leds (about 20W worth) and introduce them to your grow, and you will no longer doubt this. After a few days, you will be convinced that the stretch is insane just by adding light.

On the other hand, a very small amount of 730nm in your light source is good, because it tells the lower branches with red filtered out to stretch until it gets to canopy level. It's a signal!

Yellow also causes %Pfr to converge lower than red and penetrates well, so it has a similar shade avoidance calibrating effect. As a bonus, any yellow absorbed by lower leaves can be used to produce photosynthesis!


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Photosynthesis is only one half of the story.
> 
> Plants, like animals, have color vision that is independent from the pigments used to produce photosynthesis. Instead of 3 cones that excite the brain electrically, they use 2 complementary pigments, phytochrome-R (the inactive form) and phytochrome-FR (the active form). When one form absorbs a photon, it becomes the other form.
> 
> ...


AFTER READING THE YELLOW SPEC THEORY SEEMS PLAUSABLE, what led would u recomend or would u say stick w hps and mh? do led's put out anything with a spectrum equal to an hps, not only in penetration, but square meter? i believe all the links pining hid's vs led's are geared for the led by using a 4x4 area wile using a 1000 watt hps which can cover double the area of the led its up against..if they want to do a true comparison put both lights in a 5x6 area,,i believe in thsat area the hps would beat out any led..


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## churchhaze (Jan 18, 2015)

Look into cree cxa3070 or vero 18 (or any of the vero series).

3000k 80cri for both is very close to HPS spectrum, but has a R:FR of about 6:1 rather than HPS 2:1, so it's not entirely the same.

In the long run, I think everyone will be using the 3000k 80cri vero or cxa. It's slightly more efficient than HPS, with a much higher startup cost, and since driving them at lower currents gets slightly higher efficiency, there's a direct correlation between start up cost and efficiency, with very hard diminishing returns. Efficiency with the cxa3070 3000k 80cri AB bin is as high as 50% when driven at 350mA, but most DIYers run them at 1400mA, which has an efficiency closer to 40%.

The performance is definitely there though if you're willing to shell out the cash up front. Most of the DIYers in the LED section are using 3000k or 3500k whites.

The efficiency of a fresh 600W HPS lamp is about 35%, which is pretty hard to compete with. Vero 18 driven at 700mA is about 38% efficient... It's not going to eliminate heat like a lot of people think. The other 62% is dumped out as heat, and realistically, so is the 38% output as light. Where you think that's going, light heaven? The output from the cobs is dangerously strong and can start fires if you're not careful. Light is heat. Most of the light hitting the plant is actually just going to heat it up. Very little of that energy is used to produce sugars.

Of course there are some other advantages of cobs over HPS. The output does not decrease over time and require replacement nearly as fast as HPS. 35% is only for a fresh HPS lamp. It goes down to about 30% when it's time for replacement. The cobs also have a 120 degree cone pattern, which means they don't need a reflector, which some light is lost reflecting.

It's a very tough call whether it's worth replacing HPS with cxa3070 or vero, especially if you have everything setup already.

Here's my DIY vero 18 3500k 80cri setup driven at 700mA. (20W dissipated per cob). Lots of people have been going this route because it's easier than wiring and mounting individual, smaller, leds. I have 3 of these hanging in a 4'x2' tent.









TheChemist77 said:


> AFTER READING THE YELLOW SPEC THEORY SEEMS PLAUSABLE, what led would u recomend or would u say stick w hps and mh? do led's put out anything with a spectrum equal to an hps, not only in penetration, but square meter? i believe all the links pining hid's vs led's are geared for the led by using a 4x4 area wile using a 1000 watt hps which can cover double the area of the led its up against..if they want to do a true comparison put both lights in a 5x6 area,,i believe in thsat area the hps would beat out any led..


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 18, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Look into cree cxa3070 or vero 18 (or any of the vero series).
> 
> 3000k 80cri for both is very close to HPS spectrum, but has a R:FR of about 6:1 rather than HPS 2:1, so it's not entirely the same.
> 
> ...


THANKS FOR THE INFO!! ILL DO SOME RESEARCH, BUT DAMN LED'S ARE SO EXPENSIVE TO SWITCH


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Pretty sure it is not the yellow light IMO (based on all I have read) the reason that HPS works is the sheer power of bombarded photons and that the plants adapt to it. With recent technical advances in LED lights it seems most greenhouses are switching to em as seen in that vid that I posted, but here is yet another example,,,










I don't know where he bought this light but that spectrum doesn't look anything like the spectral analysis of HPS I've ever seen. I posted an Osram back on page 7. https://www.rollitup.org/t/light.853779/page-7


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## Guitar Man (Jan 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> What are we investigating? not sure I'm following. I would put temp & humidity above light in importance of tweaking but light is very much needed, I simply don't consider it the #1 item in terms of tools to use to improve. However I use T5's so I can tweak the spectrum and have it be nothing but what plants require


My first question would be this: have you done this test with HPS and T5's to compare actual results? My second question is: have you done this test with Sativa's and Indica's, where there are completely different stretch modes in flowering.


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Guitar Man said:


> My first question would be this: have you done this test with HPS and T5's to compare actual results? My second question is: have you done this test with Sativa's and Indica's, where there are completely different stretch modes in flowering.


What test ???


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## Guitar Man (Jan 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> What test ???


Growing out the same Strain using HPS and Floro lights to see if the overall results of harvest are different?


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Guitar Man said:


> Growing out the same Strain using HPS and Floro lights to see if the overall results of harvest are different?


I do not (nor will I ever) own an HPS light, but there is a grower doing a test with one of my strains that just started, he has T5, CMH & HPS and is gonna do clones under each.

Here is what I already know to be true, the results will be that the HPS yields better and the plants under the T5 will be more potent or better quality. This grower doing the test has already posted that with a different strain (C99, I believe)


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## Guitar Man (Jan 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> I do not (nor will I ever) own an HPS light, but there is a grower doing a test with one of my strains that just started, he has T5, CMH & HPS and is gonna do clones under each.
> 
> Here is what I already know to be true, the results will be that the HPS yields better and the plants under the T5 will be more potent or better quality. This grower doing the test has already posted that with a different strain (C99, I believe)


Then how come your post is focused on the subject of Light, but you've never proven that HPS is good or bad via your own experience?


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Guitar Man said:


> Then how come your post is focused on the subject of Light, but you've never proven that HPS is good or bad via your own experience?


Did ya read the whole thread, not once have I said HPS was bad, hell growers have been usin em for years, All I have said is it is not the best/right spectrum for plants which is very well known, nothing new. This thread is not about comparing lights, saying one is better than the other. This thread is how to properly use light to get more out of it. which most do not understand thanks to forum rhetoric that has been passed down for ages.


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## Guitar Man (Jan 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Did ya read the whole thread, not once have I said HPS was bad, hell growers have been usin em for years, All I have said is it is not the best/right spectrum for plants which is very well known, nothing new. This thread is not about comparing lights, saying one is better than the other. This thread is how to properly use light to get more out of it. which most do not understand thanks to forum rhetoric that has been passed down for ages.


I did read a good portion of your Thread and I find it interesting, but inconclusive regarding Light. I just finished up a Sour Diesel under 2 150 Watt HPS lights, which are the only lights I have ever used in flowering. I use a Floro during the first part of veg, but switch over to HPS about halfway through that cycle.

The picture below is that plant, which grows through the roof if I don't top her. She is a Sativa, and the picture you see is showing her at over 5 feet tall, and that's after topping. This is also in a 2x4x8 closet, so my room is limited and I have to be careful when growing this Strain, otherwise it's nothing but a fight to keep her out of my lights.

I have grown this Strain 4 complete grows, so I've got a pretty good idea what I'm up against when she comes out of the ground. I keep a "Log" of every, single thing I do to bring my plants to a cured and finished product. Temps, Humidity, Nutes, Soil, exact days of Germination, Veg, Flower, Cut, Hang, Cure, you name it, I pretty much keep a record so I can compare my results.

This Sour Diesel is the most potent Strain I grow. The Trichomes are so dense and plentiful, you can smoke the Shake and get flat, stoned! I also get the most from this Lady! After the hang and initial cure of over 3 weeks, I had 11 full Kerr jars of finished bud, and 2 jars of dank shake (13 total). That doesn't include the potent shake that my wife has used to make oil for edibles. This from just one plant in this little closet.

I also have had this problem with this plant; the bud towers growing too damn high, and into the lights. You can see in this picture, where I use ribbon to pull them away from the light, and they literally grow up and past the light! That's how close they get! Even at this level, the buds remain EPIC and healthy!


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Interesting but inconclusive? Then why not ask questions?

Great grow by the way, plant looks awesome and you are doing it with 500 watts good job.

Wanna curb your stretching problem switch to usin the GasLight veg routine, my plants are stretchin less than foot since I switched to it ( saves on the lectric bill too)

I use my T5 grows as example in the thread simply because most think you can't or shouldn't flower with em. Most will tell you they don't/can't penetrate. And yet here I am proving that is not true. My point is not to say hey you all need to switch your lights, my point is if I can do what I do with T5's imagine what you could do with HPS if you simply open your mind and let go of the forum nonsense.


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## Guitar Man (Jan 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Interesting but inconclusive? Then why not ask questions?
> 
> Great grow by the way, plant looks awesome and you are doing it with 500 watts good job.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the "Thumbs Up" on the grow. I did take a very close look at your grow and those plants do look fricken EPIC! And I agree, grow with the Floro's just to show everyone, it can be done! That's exactly how I am! Prove it and Show it! This is what we need in this industry bogged down by bullshit.

Growing with 2 HPS 150's is something not many people do. I like this setup because I have better light distribution, using the Wattage more effectively because I can spread them apart. I also don't need 220 for these lights; they plug right into 110, using only 4.5 AMPS per light. My 3 base fans and 1 exhaust fan only use about 1.5 AMPS, so that's a total of 10.5 AMPS for everything, on a 20 AMP circuit. Safe and sound, with barely a bump in the electric bill!

I did put up Reflectix to help brighten things up, and I've noticed a better response to the entire plant when I did this. I have to watch my Temps a little closer after doing that, but no problem, since I can open the door to the right place to cool things off.


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

My thing now after years of experiments is using the tools we have to bring out all the genetics offer and light is one of the single most important things to understand and tweak to do so. The spectrum, the angles, the cycles etc. and it works. I'm here trying to share it now that I've learned it.

I have all these people tellin me I'm an idiot because I'm interrupting my light cycle with 1/2 hour of dark. Mid day depression indoors, not possible they say. Then one saw my temp at 92 and said well with that temp it might be possible, I simply smiled  

I like to grow Sats and Sat dom hybrids so I run an 11/13 (kinda) and I get people tellin me that with T5's I should go 13/11 to get the most out of em but 13/11 is an indica cycle and I want my Sats to express their Sat-ness  

Most will tell you that fire is all about genetics, I can bring out the fire in any strain and have done so with many and instead of saying wow, how you do that, I get well that is just not possible. 

1st pic taken Dec 27th when I flipped the 5 TE plants
2nd pic taken Jan 2 just 5 days later
3rd pic taken this morning 3 weeks and 2 days of flower, they have "stretched" 7 inches (which is all cola  )


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Here is a side shot of those TE's from this morning

and 2nd is the garden showing size of the plants


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Here are a couple of main cola shots of the TE's from this morning,,,


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Finally the buds, remember these were flipped into flower 3 weeks and 2 days ago


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

Now lets post a few shots of the TE that the 5 clones were taken from, these shots are from week 9 of flower, right before I chopped her (she smokes wonderfully)


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## Guitar Man (Jan 19, 2015)

I do the same thing with photos. I take pictures during the different stages to see how fast, or slow, the plant development is. Probably the most important thing I do in regards to following the genetical response of a Strain. I'm an extremely visual person, so I learn very well with pictures/videos.

I'll check my pics later to see how my buds look at your stage. But I'm sure you know, bud development is a Stain/Genetic thingy. I notice a big difference between the Sativa and the Indica. Harvest is also another difference between Strains, Sativa's usually getting cut, first. 

I notice you grow in plastic. Have you used Grow Pots made with fabric? Since root development is so important, using the right container can really make a difference. You have to water more often, but the fabric pots breath and allow the roots to literally grow through to the outside of the bag, which imitates a ground environment. 

Hands down, after doing research that would make ones head spin, Grow Bags work better than plastic, period. You will have bigger, healthier plants, simply because your roots don't sit in a pot that is claustrophobic. 

You're also doing some experiments I've never heard of before, but that's the fun about this sport. Try it, and if it doesn't work, then try something else.

I also noticed in your last post that you said I was using 500 Watts of HPS. I'm only using 300 Watts. The Lumens per square inch is perfect for my closet with these beauty's! And that is something that lines up with your Thread about light; using too much light is NOT good. I'm not going to put a 1000 Watts in there because I will do nothing but give my plants more than they need.

I want to see your buds when they are ready for chop chop.


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## RM3 (Jan 19, 2015)

My bad on your lights I had it in my head as I was typing that you said 2 250's it was 2 150's ( I had to go look again LOL ) 

And I have to disagree on it being a 100% strain thing as I have made many strains tric up like that


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> My bad on your lights I had it in my head as I was typing that you said 2 250's it was 2 150's ( I had to go look again LOL )
> 
> And I have to disagree on it being a 100% strain thing as I have made many strains tric up like that


RM3, question, how do u get ur plants to flower so quickly? my plants are just starting to bud by week 2, they still finish in 8 weeks but ur plants seem to bud faster than mine?? is it that light interuption? if my buds were the size of urs at 3 weeks im sure my harvest weight would double..


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## RM3 (Jan 20, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> RM3, question, how do u get ur plants to flower so quickly? my plants are just starting to bud by week 2, they still finish in 8 weeks but ur plants seem to bud faster than mine?? is it that light interuption? if my buds were the size of urs at 3 weeks im sure my harvest weight would double..


It is the combination of light cycles that I use, and is all about the dark time. The more dark time they get the more flower hormone they build up, this causes em to flower faster with less stretch


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 20, 2015)

RM3 said:


> It is the combination of light cycles that I use, and is all about the dark time. The more dark time they get the more flower hormone they build up, this causes em to flower faster with less stretch


can u give me a line up of ur veg and flowering times? if i use them it shouldnt matter the type of lighting im using right? mh/hps.&T5


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## RM3 (Jan 20, 2015)

My veg routine has 3 names if ya wanna Google em , Gas Lantern Routine, GasLight Veg and 12/1 it is 12 on, 5.5 off, 1 on, 5.5 off. Some strains will actually flower in this routine if that happens you adjust the dark hour, I run mine at 1.5 because of this

My flower schedule is 6.5 on, .5 off, 4 on, 13 off


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 20, 2015)

RM3 said:


> My veg routine has 3 names if ya wanna Google em , Gas Lantern Routine, GasLight Veg and 12/1 it is 12 on, 5.5 off, 1 on, 5.5 off. Some strains will actually flower in this routine if that happens you adjust the dark hour, I run mine at 1.5 because of this
> 
> My flower schedule is 6.5 on, .5 off, 4 on, 13 off


thanks, ill give it a shot! if i start to see flowering in veg go 12 on, 5.5 off, 2 on, 5.5 off? that should keep veg right?
how does that flower sced work? only 24hours on timer?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 20, 2015)

Riddle - he's got a very valid point (tweek) with his question asking if you use root pruning pots. You should try them hombre. I prefer conventional pots painted with copper hydroxide laden latex paint. You can make yourself or pay the man - MicroKote.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 20, 2015)

RM3 said:


> It is the combination of light cycles that I use, and is all about the dark time. The more dark time they get the more flower hormone they build up, this causes em to flower faster with less stretch


It's my understanding that phytochrome levels is an off/on influence. More will not have any influence on the plant. It's either at a certain triggering level regarding initiating a flowering response, or it isn't. Mel Franks discusses phytochrome hormonal influences FWIW.


----------



## RM3 (Jan 20, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> thanks, ill give it a shot! if i start to see flowering in veg go 12 on, 5.5 off, 2 on, 5.5 off? that should keep veg right?
> how does that flower sced work? only 24hours on timer?


6.5 + .5 = 7 ,, 7 + 4 = 11 ,, 11 + 13 = 24


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## RM3 (Jan 20, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's my understanding that phytochrome levels is an off/on influence. More will not have any influence on the plant. It's either at a certain triggering level regarding initiating a flowering response, or it isn't. Mel Franks discusses phytochrome hormonal influences FWIW.


Lots of documentation on the Gas Lantern Routine, tis used by greenhouses and def boost the flower response I have watched it and it expresses in several ways. They show sex (once mature) they have more bud sites, they flower faster, they stretch less


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## Guitar Man (Jan 20, 2015)

RM3 said:


> My bad on your lights I had it in my head as I was typing that you said 2 250's it was 2 150's ( I had to go look again LOL )
> 
> And I have to disagree on it being a 100% strain thing as I have made many strains tric up like that


Do you flower all of your Stains, using the same time length? I grow a Purple Cookie Indica that is a total different animal than my Sour Diesel.


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## TheChemist77 (Jan 20, 2015)

RM3 said:


> 6.5 + .5 = 7 ,, 7 + 4 = 11 ,, 11 + 13 = 24


sorry didnt see the point in front of the 5,,thanks


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## RM3 (Jan 21, 2015)

Guitar Man said:


> Do you flower all of your Stains, using the same time length? I grow a Purple Cookie Indica that is a total different animal than my Sour Diesel.


Yes, because my thing is all about early true amber, my garden is dialed in to bring out this rare genetic trait and I breed for it. I'm all about your fathers weed LOL 

I read all the crap about how todays weed is not your fathers weed and I said, You got that right, our weed blew todays weed away completely. I have spent years dialing my garden to get those old Sats back with all they had to offer and have done so with several strains


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## harris hawk (Jan 21, 2015)

Indica's take about 8 weeks (= -) Sativa's can take up to 12-16 weeks - now Hybrids can take anywhere fro 8-12 weeks Depends on gentics/strain


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## Kush Killington (Jan 21, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Lots of documentation on the Gas Lantern Routine, tis used by greenhouses and def boost the flower response I have watched it and it expresses in several ways. They show sex (once mature) they have more bud sites, they flower faster, they stretch less


Hey bro do yu use clones? 
I been using the 12/1 cycle for awhile but had to switch to 16/8 cause my clones wud flower. Jus curious what light cycle yu use for clones or if yuve noticed this as well? 
I've read yu shud clone with 16/8 then veg 12/1 but found no reason for it. I assume its because of clones flowering but this issues isnt consistent between phenos. I gotta weed out the ones that flower instead of veg when cloned. Lol.
Unfortunately i have no space to run a seperate clone area atm.
The 12/1 cycle is legit thou. Plants flower very quickly after switch with no stretch. I flowered out my sativas at 18"-20" and they ended around 30. None of them even double in height wen i was expecting 3-4x. 

Straight up if yu want tight nodes and crazy budsites, find a way to incorporate the 12/1 cycle. Plants sex faster to and look like they're flowering in veg. I advice 2 seperate lights instead of one light cycling on and off twice a day. Though im not really sure how much itll shorten yur ballast/bulbs life span.

Sir KK


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## RM3 (Jan 21, 2015)

Kush Killington said:


> Hey bro do yu use clones?
> I been using the 12/1 cycle for awhile but had to switch to 16/8 cause my clones wud flower. Jus curious what light cycle yu use for clones or if yuve noticed this as well?
> I've read yu shud clone with 16/8 then veg 12/1 but found no reason for it. I assume its because of clones flowering but this issues isnt consistent between phenos. I gotta weed out the ones that flower instead of veg when cloned. Lol.
> Unfortunately i have no space to run a seperate clone area atm.
> ...


Yes I do clones (and seeds) I simply added a half hour to the one in dark to stop em from trying to flower, seems to be a strain thing. Hell i've rvegged one under 12/1


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## Kush Killington (Jan 21, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Yes I do clones (and seeds) I simply added a half hour to the one in dark to stop em from trying to flower, seems to be a strain thing. Hell i've rvegged one under 12/1


Funny yu say that. I was gonna try a 2 hr break in dark but am not in much of a position to experiment. 
I actually started all my plants from seed under 12/1 just fine, but clones seem to flower haha. 
I'll have to try adding another 30min. The growth jus aint the same comparing 12/1 to 16/8.
Less sites, more stretch, yuck!

Sir KK


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## RM3 (Jan 28, 2015)

Remember that little TE that was tricin up at 3 weeks, well it has been 5 and a half weeks now and she is lookin pretty good


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## Guitar Man (Jan 30, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Remember that little TE that was tricin up at 3 weeks, well it has been 5 and a half weeks now and she is lookin pretty good
> View attachment 3340871View attachment 3340872


They look nice, but nothing special IMO. Here's some frost from just my normal grow, doing it the easy, cheesy, way.


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## RM3 (Jan 30, 2015)

Guitar Man said:


> They look nice, but nothing special IMO. Here's some frost from just my normal grow, doing it the easy, cheesy, way.


They look great ! but are done (harvested) and mine have 4 more weeks to go, so I have to ask how did they look at 5 weeks ?

Never said mine were special LOL


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## Guitar Man (Jan 30, 2015)

RM3 said:


> They look great ! but are done (harvested) and mine have 4 more weeks to go, so I have to ask how did they look at 5 weeks ?
> 
> Never said mine were special LOL


Thanks. That strain is kick ass in every way. I've shared that grow/smoke with professional commercial growers who said it was some of the best cannabis they've ever smoked. I was born in San Francisco and raised in the Bay Area during the 60-70's, so I have many friends in the industry who know their shit.

I did look at your pictures at 3 weeks, and then 5 weeks. I don't see a lot of difference between the 2, but pictures are deceiving sometimes. I'm not saying your buds look bad, I'm just saying they look normal. You are also fucking with the lights, attempting to stir the flowering into something different, but the end product is the end product.

I really want to see them when they are finished. Your plants look great but I don't see the benefit of going too far outside of nature to get quality, good weed. Like Uncle Ben says about his topping technique, "Easy cheesy!", and that's how I like to do it. There's too many potions and lotions in this business that can lead a grower into wasting precious time on nothing but nothing.

I did mention this already, but you are growing in plastic. That would be the first big change I would make in your grow, instead of messing with the lights or doing any other experiment. That root ball is the life source of your plant.


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## RM3 (Jan 30, 2015)

Guitar Man said:


> Thanks. That strain is kick ass in every way. I've shared that grow/smoke with professional commercial growers who said it was some of the best cannabis they've ever smoked. I was born in San Francisco and raised in the Bay Area during the 60-70's, so I have many friends in the industry who know their shit.
> 
> I did look at your pictures at 3 weeks, and then 5 weeks. I don't see a lot of difference between the 2, but pictures are deceiving sometimes. I'm not saying your buds look bad, I'm just saying they look normal. You are also fucking with the lights, attempting to stir the flowering into something different, but the end product is the end product.
> 
> ...


I actually posted the pics to simply bump the thread, I suppose I could've just typed "bump" but felt it was better to bump it with bud porn.

I don't use any of the potions or lotions available in this industry, so not really sure what your point was? I don't use any training methods, I just let plants grow. 

And I actually prefer the plastic pots, I have no issue with yield or roots or whatever

and I have learned a lot playing with my light experiments, I was simply trying to share that info with others that might be interested.

And I have no problem puttin my end product up against any.

I will for sure post pics when they are finished, I like takin pics


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## bellcore (Feb 19, 2015)

Hey Riddle, any idea if the UVB fluorescent bulbs put off more heat than the 2700k/6500k type bulbs?


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## RM3 (Feb 19, 2015)

bellcore said:


> Hey Riddle, any idea if the UVB fluorescent bulbs put off more heat than the 2700k/6500k type bulbs?


They feel the same, but honestly hard to tell for sure in the middle of 18 of em


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> They feel the same, but honestly hard to tell for sure in the middle of 18 of em


hey rm3, whats ur take on the 7,200 k mh bulbs in compare to the normal 6,400 k mh bulbs..from what i learned,, and now trying to relearn was that lower k is for flower, higher k for veg as lower is more red wile higher is more blue...now we are finding that an even distribution of red and blue is even better correct? if so would using the 7,200k be a better balanced bulb..ive also been told not sure its true that the 2,000k bulb is more balanced than the 2.700k bulb??


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## RM3 (Feb 20, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> hey rm3, whats ur take on the 7,200 k mh bulbs in compare to the normal 6,400 k mh bulbs..from what i learned,, and now trying to relearn was that lower k is for flower, higher k for veg as lower is more red wile higher is more blue...now we are finding that an even distribution of red and blue is even better correct? if so would using the 7,200k be a better balanced bulb..ive also been told not sure its true that the 2,000k bulb is more balanced than the 2.700k bulb??


I went and looked at the Plantmax 
http://www.amazon.com/Plantmax-PX-MPS1000-7K-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B00A4FMQQW
Which is discontinued and no longer available 

It had a WONDERFUL spectrum


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## RM3 (Feb 20, 2015)

I would be more apt to use a 10,000K MH 

this is a Solistek 600 watt 10000K MH


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## churchhaze (Feb 20, 2015)

If you're already set in your ways, I can understand why you would stick to what you're familiar with .... however....

These fluorescent lamps would be better used in a fish-tank than for growing weed, and even there, reefers are quickly ditching the tubes for cree cobs.

I know there was a specific argument made by RM3, but the tried and true reality is that florescent are both inefficient at converting electricity to photons, and way too high in blue. While it's nice to experiment, I know from first hand experience that these designer spectrum fluorescent tubes are somewhat of a novelty, and that actinic tubes in particular are actually the lowest value. *I did see more frost from the actinic tubes, but it also lengthened flowering.* I actaully have pictures of my 500W tube array and the finished plants on weedfarmer.com from back in the early 2000s if that still exists. (I don't think it does)

RM3, I know you never intended to argue that florescent are better than HPS for flowering, but I am, however, willing to argue the other way around. HPS lamps are far superior to ANY fluorescent tube available on the market when it comes to flowering. In my opinion, this thread is very misleading, and doesn't really focus on any of the advanced aspects of light, in fact everyone seemed to glaze over when discussing phytochromes, which technically should be one of the only things being discussed in this _advanced_ thread.

Instead, it's turned into a discussion about which color temperature flourescent lamps to buy.

For about 2 decades now, HPS has beaten all fluorescent tubes, t5s, high output.. whatever. fluorescent is dino tech, and should be phased out slowly. For cree cobs.

Especially in veg!!


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## ibsippin (Feb 20, 2015)

Google Mid day depression in plants and read up on it.


RM3 said:


> This morning, I read this thread ,,,,
> Google Mid day depression in plants and read up on it. View attachment 3311363 View attachment 3311364


dude you changed the game right here... thanks for the info


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## churchhaze (Feb 20, 2015)

The thing is that members in the led section have been testing various spectrums for years now, and it turns out that nothing beats 3000k 80cri white.







That warm white 3000k 80cri spectrum has been producing over 1gpw in just about everyone's setup.

As a side note, there are about 10 people in the LED section doing experiments with 730nm leds to manipulate darkness periods and R:FR ratio. The discussion on light here seems way less advanced.


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## a senile fungus (Feb 20, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> The thing is that members in the led section have been testing various spectrums for years now, and it turns out that nothing beats 3000k 80cri white.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I love reading in the LED section. Lots of factual info and intelligent people. Real conversations going on. It's beautiful over there...


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## churchhaze (Feb 20, 2015)

Cree and bridgelux in the last week both released new lines of their flagship cxa and vero cob lines, the cxb and an upgraded vero.

In the next few days, the price of vero 18 will likely drop from 12.50 a piece to 9 dollars a piece to compete with the 60% efficient monsters that were just released. When that happens, it will become a sin to recommend fluorescent ever again. The era of excited mercury in a thin glass tube has come to an end.

This is the modern veg box, minus the aluminum foil... lol That's 40W of total power dissipation there and will easily replace 80W of t-8, and these aren't even the new beasts on the market. These are 47% efficient at the current they're being run at (350mA).

No reflectors, no lenses.


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 20, 2015)

RM3 said:


> I would be more apt to use a 10,000K MH
> 
> this is a Solistek 600 watt 10000K MH
> 
> View attachment 3355435


which is better, 7,200k or 6,400k? 2,000k or 2,700 k? im looking at a xtrasun 400 watt mh 7,200k or a reg 400 watt mh at 6,400k..never used xtrasun brand before but its cheap, and ive used hortilux and other high priced brands and swiched them once a year. then tryed cheaper bulbs and switched every6-8 months w/ no change in yields, so ive stopped using the higher priced bulbs altogether as i can get 3 or 4 cheap bulbs that last 2 years rather than 1 high priced bulb that lasts 1 year of growing.. i know de is the way to go, but i would have to get all new equipment, not an option right now...

oh, i wanted to let u know in my 4'x6' area i was running 2 600 watt hps alone, sice then ive added 4 4' t5 6500k bulbs 2 on each side of the hps's and i must say the added blue is keeping nodes closer w/ less stretch in flower...i also think crystal production is increasing, just by looking, no real evidence..but i also added a new strain this run, lemon kush which has simply overgrown all my other plants,i dont like it, way to stretchy w a foot between nodes..but the other strains i ran w/ just the hps have responded well to the added t5's..


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 20, 2015)

my only problem w/ led is that it keeps improving, thats good but not worth investing in a light that will be outdated in a year or 2..i think led lighting will be great, but not worth the money when in a few years you will want the new ones..look at all the guys who bought led's 3-4 years ago, most are garbage now because the new ones are far superior...ill wait till they are lower priced .. ill be waiting awile im sure!


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## churchhaze (Feb 20, 2015)

This is all very true and valid, but 3-4 years ago, people had the information they needed to realize that it was only 25% efficient, vs a fresh 600W HPS lamp, which is 35% efficient, and quickly tapers after use. I didn't even bother with LED back then, although it was fun to watch others experiment.

But since there are 40-60% efficient white lights on the market now, using your logic, wouldn't HPS be considered garbage now? On the contrary, HPS is still pretty amazing at 30-35% efficiency because of it's startup cost, and proven effectiveness.

By efficiency, I mean the total power output in light over the power in. (W/W)

Sure, you might feel stupid *when* the price falls after you purchase, but as long as you get above 35% efficiency, the light will have reason to exist.



TheChemist77 said:


> my only problem w/ led is that it keeps improving, thats good but not worth investing in a light that will be outdated in a year or 2..i think led lighting will be great, but not worth the money when in a few years you will want the new ones..look at all the guys who bought led's 3-4 years ago, most are garbage now because the new ones are far superior...ill wait till they are lower priced .. ill be waiting awile im sure!


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## Sativied (Feb 20, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> I love reading in the LED section. Lots of factual info and intelligent people. Real conversations going on. It's beautiful over there...


I could have said exactly the same thing word for word dot for dot. But then I do like sarcasm without the smilies.


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## a senile fungus (Feb 20, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I could have said exactly the same thing word for word dot for dot. But then I do like sarcasm without the smilies.


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## RM3 (Feb 20, 2015)

The purpose of the thread was to help growers better understand how to use light more effectively, which is an advanced topic. It has turned to a discussion about lights themselves, which I have merely followed. I am not yet ready to switch to LED, though I do agree it is the future. 

Pot grown under the tubes is more potent, that is being seen by several growers that have made the change, one is doing a side by side T5's vs a 600 HPS and the tubes are winning every time in potency but not in yield which is expected

I would rather have a few one hit buds over a lot of 10 hit buds but that is just me


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## ttystikk (Feb 20, 2015)

RM3 said:


> The purpose of the thread was to help growers better understand how to use light more effectively, which is an advanced topic. It has turned to a discussion about lights themselves, which I have merely followed. I am not yet ready to switch to LED, though I do agree it is the future.
> 
> Pot grown under the tubes is more potent, that is being seen by several growers that have made the change, one is doing a side by side T5's vs a 600 HPS and the tubes are winning every time in potency but not in yield which is expected
> 
> I would rather have a few one hit buds over a lot of 10 hit buds but that is just me


...and there's guys like me who want it ALL, want it NOW, and want it CHEAP. And, let's not forget in stock!


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> In my opinion, this thread is very misleading, and doesn't really focus on any of the advanced aspects of light, in fact everyone seemed to glaze over when discussing phytochromes, which technically should be one of the only things being discussed in this _advanced_ thread.


Not me. I have quite a few posts where I've raised the topic of phytochrome hormones, photomorphogenesis and all you hear in "Advanced" is crickets.

I'm a simple man. There's nothing easier than raising or lowering a HID on a dog chain attached to a metal water pipe, grabbing a light meter and doing a few tweeks here and there.

There's something else folks won't talk about because they so hung up on spectral analysis. As long as you have reds and blues in sufficient amounts, which a regular HPS has, the plant doesn't give a hoot. 

Just like with the high tech corporations pushing their "must have" devices with newest upgrade soon to be released, I won't be sucked into a bunch of marketing bullshit by the hydro/lighting industry. It's a racket.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Pot grown under the tubes is more potent, that is being seen by several growers that have made the change, one is doing a side by side T5's vs a 600 HPS and the tubes are winning every time in potency but not in yield which is expected


Riddle, not trying to be confrontational but that dog don't hunt. I have yet to see any scientific proof using standard university lab type empirical procedures replicated at least 3 times which reflects any truisms in your statement about HPS vs T5's. Sorry, but I aint buying into ANY anecdotal evidence or conjecture, especially when it comes to a pot forum. I consider you one of the few credible and responsible growers, but.......


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## RM3 (Feb 21, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Riddle, not trying to be confrontational but that dog don't hunt. I have yet to see any scientific proof using standard university lab type empirical procedures replicated at least 3 times which reflects any truisms in your statement about HPS vs T5's. Sorry, but I aint buying into ANY anecdotal evidence or conjecture, especially when it comes to a pot forum. I consider you one of the few credible and responsible growers, but.......


Well, you're right nothing scientific as yet, just a bunch of stoners getting high and reportin their take on it. But that grower that is doing the side by sides is using clones from the same mom and is going to have them lab tested once finished. It will be a start towards empirical proof that the dog does indeed hunt


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## cannawizard (Feb 21, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not me. I have made quite a few posts made where I've raised the topic of phytochrome hormones, photomorphogenesis and all you hear in "Advanced" is crickets.
> 
> I'm a simple man. There's nothing easier than raising or lowering a HID on a dog chain attached to a metal water pipe, grabbing a light meter and doing a few tweeks here and there.


Same, simple is so much easier and less stress inducing lol. I did the whole "anecdotal experiments" with Plasma/LEDs/HIDs/Fluros ---PAR/PUR/photosaturation.. blah blah blah its endless.. In the end of the day, I realized things were so much simpler just under the sun, literally~


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Well, you're right nothing scientific as yet, just a bunch of stoners getting high and reportin their take on it. But that grower that is doing the side by sides is using clones from the same mom and is going to have them lab tested once finished. It will be a start towards empirical proof that the dog does indeed hunt


Let's hope it doesn't turn out to be a toy poodle. 

Even though your reference is far from a properly conducted study it will be interesting. Keep us posted amigo.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 21, 2015)

cannawizard said:


> Same, simple is so much easier and less stress inducing lol. I did the whole "anecdotal experiments" with Plasma/LEDs/HIDs/Fluros ---PAR/PUR/photosaturation.. blah blah blah its endless.. In the end of the day, I realized things were so much simpler just under the sun, literally~


Nothing like growing in the sun but it never fails, there are some really tough moments with outdoors growing namely high prevailing winds for me (in spite of a windbreak) and seasonal storms. I had one storm snap a 4 cola trunk right down the middle.


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## cannawizard (Feb 21, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nothing like growing in the sun but it never fails, there are some really tough moments with outdoors growing namely high prevailing winds for me (in spite of a windbreak) and seasonal storms. I had one storm snap a 4 cola trunk right down the middle. View attachment 3356204


Yup, even with well placed windbreaks, 50+mph winds will do a number on cola heavy ladies, duct tape is an outdoor growers best friend with all those snapped branches/stems~


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


>


If sarcasm itself was the goal I could have put it exactly like you did. I especially liked the "it's beautiful there..." part, nice touch.

It wasn't though. Not _that_ enthusiastic about the led forums but I agree there are some good growers and smart people there (e.g. gg and churchhaze) and as long as you're a member of the same church or just a visitor... It's a little easier with a more exact science like electronics and lighting though. Can't argue math. Well..



churchhaze said:


> By efficiency, I mean the total power output in light over the power in. (W/W)


Which is nice on paper but doesn't necessarily mean something in practice. I don't care about how much light in total I get from a watt but how much gram of bud it produces, and then the difference in efficiency doesn't seem to line up with those percentages. It being a common argument from led growers and manufacturers only makes me more skeptical.



churchhaze said:


> and quickly tapers after use.


Quickly is also very relative to the cost, and the better ones produce more light after a year than some do new. I get the impression whenever a comparison between LED and HPS is made the LED is the best possible (sometimes even merely exist in labs) and the HPS is some average cheapo streetlight bulb with a $10 hood.


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## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

With only red and blue, it is not possible to provide enough total radiation to larger plants without bleaching the top leaves. It's like trying to cook a 2 inch rib eye steak with a hot cast iron on the highest setting the whole way through. To get enough total power of just R+B, you will fry the top of the plant while leaving the center raw. Most people gave up on the Red + blue only fad years ago. It actually is more complicated than just hitting plants with their 2 favorite colors. White has been proven to be way more effective with just about every journal I've seen. I've never seen a R+B grow and been thoroughly impressed by the results.

Obviously a lot of people have tried the failure combination of red+blue. It didn't matter how much R to B was included, white always yielded more.

I think what you are doing is using logic to prove your conclusions here, which works most of the time. I used to think more R+B was all plants wanted and kept trying to tune my spectrum accordingly.

*HPS spectrum is actually really good for producing marijuana flowers*. It's not just bombarding the plant with photons, but its also a better spectrum for flowering than any MH of the same intensity. That implies it's the spectrum of HPS that's so special.

R+B only grows always end up behind schedule, and yielding very little.

IMO, HPS spectrum should be emulated, not avoided, until it can be beaten with something that produces better results.



Uncle Ben said:


> As long as you have reds and blues in sufficient amounts, which a regular HPS has, the plant doesn't give a hoot..


----------



## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Efficiency is one of the few numbers that means exactly the same thing on paper and in reality. You could take a kil-o-watt meter to measure how efficient your driver is. In that case, greater efficiency directly translates into a lower energy bill, even though nobody thinks "my driver produces awesome bud". An 80% efficiency driver will cost more to run than a 90% efficient driver.

Efficiency is one of the only hard quantitative arguments that CAN be made about LEDs in my opinion. All the other arguments you hear in favor of LED are about secret spectral sauces, how there will be more resin, how flavors are better, and other qualitative properties that were observed just by smoking or looking at the weed.

There are a few ways to find efficiency of a light source. You could put the light source in an integration sphere and find the total output power in watts, then divide by the power in. Efficiency is always unitless, because it's always W/W and W cancels out.

It's important that people do not confuse the words efficiency, efficacy and effectiveness. Most people do misuse the word efficiency. Efficiency is not how many grams your light will produce.



Sativied said:


> Which is nice on paper but doesn't necessarily mean something in practice. I don't care about how much light in total I get from a watt but how much gram of bud it produces, and then the difference in efficiency doesn't seem to line up with those percentages. It being a common argument from led growers and manufacturers only makes me more skeptical.


----------



## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Most people who buy leds, even now, refuse to listen to the advice of the forum experts and* end up buying lamps that are less efficient than HPS*, often R+B arrays which is not recommended for flowering.

For about 80% of the people that ask which LED system best fits their budget, *the answer is 600W HPS. *If you know you can't win, don't try. It's embarrassing to everyone!

They never listen. Believe me, I think we're actually on the same page here. Personally, *I'd rather use a 600W HPS even over the beloved area51*.

The combination of the high 30-35% efficiency, the great spectrum for flowering, and the low startup cost, it's almost impossible to beat HPS. Simply "going led" isn't going to cut it.



Sativied said:


> I don't care about how much light in total I get from a watt but how much gram of bud it produces, and then the difference in efficiency doesn't seem to line up with those percentages


----------



## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Believe me, I think we're actually on the same page here.


As we usually are. I'm not even saying HPS > LED. I can think of a few situations where I'd prefer LED.



churchhaze said:


> Efficiency is one of the few numbers that means exactly the same thing on paper and in reality.
> [...]
> It's important that people do not confuse the words efficiency, efficacy and effectiveness. Most people do misuse the word efficiency.


The way you use it it means both the same in reality and on paper yes: not necessarily something in practice for growers. That's my point. You specifically wrote what you meant with efficiency, which is what I quoted.

"By efficiency, I mean the total power output in light over the power in. (W/W)"

What it comes down to is that you use total power output in light as the output to determine the efficiency, while the relevant output for growers is bud in grams, and not total light. Especially when comparing HPS to LED, you take the common factor as output, something any led grower should based on their own common arguments agree with.

Specifically, you are talking about electrical efficiency: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_efficiency And electrical efficiency doesn't necessarily says something about how efficient it grows bud.



churchhaze said:


> HPS spectrum is actually really good for producing marijuana flowers. It's not just bombarding the plant with photons


Not trying to start an argument with you, not a lot of people who's responses I put value in when it comes to led, but that's an interesting comment cause I'm pretty sure I read some research of our agricultural university doing a large scale long term test in which HPS is the photon cannon and LED is used to supplement the spectrum. Similar (yet completely different because of the full spectrum more a brute force method) with plasma, the HPS bombards photons, the plasma completes the spectrum. The philips elite agro cmh bulbs are marketed as "the plasma killer" by some, and can (should) be used for the same purpose, improve the spectrum while hps bombards the photons. And yes, that would work with a good T5 too.


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## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I read some research of our agricultural university doing a large scale long term test in which HPS is the photon cannon and LED is used to supplement the spectrum.


Are you sure they weren't describing the apparatus/procedure in that statement rather than making a conclusion about the results?



Sativied said:


> The philips elite agro cmh bulbs are marketed as "the plasma killer" ... improve the spectrum while hps bombards the photons. And yes, that would work with a good T5 too.


This is the same secret sauce marketing LED manufacturers use to trick people into buying crap that's inferior to a 600W HPS. That it _improves _HPS's _terrible _spectrum by adding more _desirable_ wavelengths and blah blah. Does the spectrum improvement translate to more grams?? How do you know the changes to the spectrum won't decrease yield and make results worse than adding more HPS instead? Does it take less electricity to run the elite agro CMH bulbs over HPS to get the same amount of grams of weed?




Sativied said:


> And yes, that would work with a good T5 too.


Can you show me a setup where HPS + T5 produced more than HPS + HPS of the same wattage? What's so good about T5? What's so bad about HPS spectrum, and why does it need supplementation?


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## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Doesn't anyone else see it as backwards reasoning that the red portion of makes HPS is what makes it good, when it peaks in the yellow-amber region and has relatively little red in comparison? Why do so many people think the yellow-amber peak is a waste rather than being a major contributing factor toward their success?.

It seems like a reaction to cognitive dissonance more than anything else. It would be easier to conclude that the spectral region between yellow-amber must be the sweet region for producing dense nugs simply as a result of HPS's success and R+B array failure.


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Are you sure they weren't describing the apparatus/procedure in that statement rather than making a conclusion about the results?


Could be the case in that specific test, like I said it's an ongoing large scale test (multiple large greenhouses over years) and the results are not complete in any case. It seems to be the general consensus however that LED is good to have more control over the spectrum but is not good enough (yet) to replace HPS.

Some of the other light sources provide either a more specific or a more complete spectrum that can be used to compliment HPS, with a wide range of effects. And like I said that "would" (if the claims are correct) work with T5 too.

Do I really need to argue light steering with a LED grower. Spectrum matters.

I never said HPS is bad (on the contrary, it's rather complete), or one combination leads to more yield than the other, or that cmh is better or cheaper than hps, or any of the things your bombardment" of misplaced burden of proof imply. I grow HPS only. Just said I find it interesting your claim opposes the ones I typically see and read.



churchhaze said:


> This is the same secret sauce marketing LED manufacturers use


Well, apart from my last comment above, the plasma light I'm referring to isn't made like any of those secret sauce marketing LED companies who try to trick home growers but a company that develops professional horticulture lighting based on professional research and tests.

The plasma is better than the Son-T HPS for indoor growing without daylight (as in closed greenhouses). The main reason it's not that popular in the dutch greenhouses like HPS is is because there's usually enough daylight to compliment the HPS to grow quality products (some leave HPS 30 min off during daylight so it gets only sunlight spectrum which according to scientific tests, no bro-science, leads to better quality for some crops). During mid winter however, some use plasma to supplement the HPS because there isn't enough daylight to produce the same quality as during the summer.

^^That's just one example from one of the many trade magazines and I don't know how reliable that particular piece is, just an example...

A better resource (not sure if that's "the" test but skimming through it, see page 7, 11, note efficiency too caring about kg/m2 )

http://ledapplicatie.nl/wp-content/uploads/sites/32/2014/02/LED-research-Wageningen-UR-Glastuinbouw-6-febr-2014.pdf

And that's why I don't put much value into most of the stuff posted about lighting in an mj grow forum, I can easily find professional and expert info in two different languages that extensively test the result on yield, taste, color, internodes, structure, etc, etc.



http://www.tuinbouw.nl/sites/default/files/documenten/Eindrapport_13814_deel 1.pdf (dutch but pics and graphs give the idea... )


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 21, 2015)

how do u figure the watts per square ft? can 1 600 watt hps cover a 4x6 ft area? or would 2 400 watters be better, or even 2 600 watters? in order to get a gram per watt it is possible to be using too much light in an area, that would make it impossible to get a gram per watt..like if your using more light per ft than ur plants can use correct? isnt 50 watts per square foot ideal? or is more better?


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

I should make a sock puppet and join the LED guys for a while...

http://www.hortidaily.com/article/2196/Tomatoes-contain-extra-vitamin-C-thanks-to-LED-lighting
"_The tomatoes that responded most strongly, were the ones to receive additional Led exposure. Some varieties actually contained twice as much vitamin C as the unexposed tomatoes._"

http://www.ledinside.com/news/2015/1/dutch_researchers_find_strawberries_taste_better_when_led_grow_lights_are_added
Dutch Researchers Find Strawberries Taste Better When LED Grow Lights Are Added
"_Strawberries taste better when they are illuminated in the autumn with LED grow lights, vitamin C content also increased as well, according to a Dutch research institute."_

^Tested in that same setting, which is "Innovation & Demonstration Centre LED (IDC LED) of the Wageningen UR Greenhouse Horticulture in Bleiswijk" https://www.wageningenur.nl/en/show/Wageningen-UR-Greenhouse-Horticulture-Bleiswijk.htm 

Effect of LEDs on flower bud induction in Chrysanthemum morifolium cv. Zembla
http://www.wageningenur.nl/en/Publication-details.htm?publicationId=publication-way-343437343437

Comparing hps,led, positions geek style: http://edepot.wur.nl/237377


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## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity.

A good scientific study would mention that leds were used in the procedure, but it's irrelevant how the spectrum was created in the conclusion. What's important is how much the relative intensity of red effected the concentration of vitamin-C.

Either way, flowers are a lot different than fruits. What might be an ideal condition for fruiting and foliage development actually inhibits flowering response. Too high of a red/far-red ratio is known to delay flowering response, and yield lass mass in flowers.

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/42/4/532.full.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1399-3054.1965.tb06910.x/abstract
http://journal.ashspublications.org/content/126/3/275.full.pdf
http://www.actahort.org/books/14/14_8.htm
https://books.google.com/books?id=WBw_EJSRNrYC&lpg=PA95&ots=F-kAaRce2r&dq=red light inhibits flowering&pg=PA95#v=onepage&q=red light inhibits flowering&f=false





Sativied said:


> I should make a sock puppet and join the LED guys for a while...
> 
> http://www.hortidaily.com/article/2196/Tomatoes-contain-extra-vitamin-C-thanks-to-LED-lighting
> "_The tomatoes that responded most strongly, were the ones to receive additional Led exposure. Some varieties actually contained twice as much vitamin C as the unexposed tomatoes._"
> ...


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity.


Yeah, that's why electrical efficiency of the light source doesn't necessarily mean a lot. 

It's always about spectrum, intensity/spread/positioning. It's the difference in source of light however, not being limited to HPS, that allows for experimenting and tuning of the spectrum and intensity. Experimenting with difference source lights without caring about the spectrum and intensity is obviously never a goal by itself and never the primary concern of a real scientific study even if it's just summed up like that for an article.



churchhaze said:


> Either way, flowers are a lot different than fruits. What might be an ideal condition for fruiting and foliage development actually inhibits flowering response. Too high of a red/far-red ratio is known to delay flowering response, and yield lass mass in flowers


It was just an example in the given context. Indeed not everything that applies to tomatoes applies to cannabis too.


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## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

Blue leds are actually the most efficient, but since so little blue is required to grow plants, nobody even uses blue leds anymore.

White leds are just blue leds with a phosphor doped resin to convert the blue to a wide band emission, and energy is lost in this conversion. The lower the color temperature, the more blue is converted.

My point is that nobody is using 5000k leds for flowering despite them having much higher efficiency than 3000k. The 3000k ones produce better in terms of grams per watt of bud despite slightly lower efficiency.

3000k 80cri actually produces just as good, if not better than 3000k 80cri supplemented with 660nm red to even the spectrum. So far, nobody has showed a correlation between 660nm supplementation and increased yield. The results there aren't in yet.



Sativied said:


> Yeah, that's why electrical efficiency of the light source doesn't necessarily mean a lot.
> 
> It's always about spectrum, intensity/spread/positioning. It's the difference in source of light however, not being limited to HPS, that allows for experimenting and tuning of the spectrum and intensity.


Assuming you found the perfect spectrum, spread, layout, intensity, etc, wouldn't it be better to have that same setup for less electricity?


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Assuming you found the perfect spectrum, spread, layout, intensity, etc, wouldn't it be better to have that same setup for less electricity?


Obviously. Your hypothetical situation, where the compared lights sources all have the perfect spectrum and intensity up to a point where those factors becomes completely irrelevant, and all that matters is what the light source is, doesn't exist.

If the experts find said hypothetical perfect spectrum and intensity then lowering the electricity would be about lowering the electricity while maintaining that perfect spectrum. Using less electricity to reach the same intensity means you just increased the intensity relatively.

Remember it was in reply to "I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity."


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

Some more info about the claims I often see made about HPS life time. While those may be true for cheap HPS bulbs and certain types, the better ones last for up to two years before it reached 5%loss if you run 12/12 all year long.

http://www.lighting.philips.com/b-dam/b2b-li/en_AA/products/Horticulture/Horticulture-products/overview_growing_your_profits-hid-en.pdf

I use the 400w HPI-T Plus mentioned during veg and sometimes transition too.


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## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

My point was that in a scientific experiment, efficiency isn't important as long as you can control the spectrum and intensity. You could use 40% or 20% efficient 660nm leds in a science experiment and it should produce the same results as long as you end up with the same amount of red.. You could even use a prism on an incandescent and use only the 660nm portion.. which would obviously be very inefficient.

Outside of an experiment, the efficiency is very important. LEDs of the same exact spectral output and distribution pattern vary in efficiency by so much, it makes no sense to even make generalizations about leds. Some leds 20%-25% efficiency, which is just totally pointless, while there are top of the line 3000k 80cri whites as high as 60% efficiency, not in a lab. Almost everything you see on the market is 20-25% efficiency... garbage, not nearly as good as generic HPS.

The links you posted seemed to be LED hype.



Sativied said:


> Remember it was in reply to "I wouldn't put too much value into scientific studies that are primarily concerned with the source of light rather than the spectrum and intensity."


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> The links you posted seemed to be LED hype.





Sativied said:


> I should make a sock puppet and join the LED guys for a while...


The links I posted are however not just LED hype, and most of them not at all. On the contrary. The Wageningen UR is a highly reputable university that works closely together with labs, greenhouses (huge greenhouse companies that is) and manufactures and the research often contains very intellectual honest nuanced conclusions. By itself something people in mj grow forums doing tests could learn a lot from. The research is targeted at people who care only about results and efficiency in ways that matter (yield/quality -> money).


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## churchhaze (Feb 21, 2015)

I meant the one from ledinside.com in particular.



Sativied said:


> The links I posted are however not just LED hype, and most of them not at all. On the contrary. The Wageningen UR is a highly reputable university that works closely together with labs, greenhouses (huge greenhouse companies that is) and manufactures and the research often contains very intellectual honest nuanced conclusions. By itself something people in mj grow forums doing tests could learn a lot from. The research is targeted at people who care only about results and efficiency in ways that matter (yield/quality -> money).


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## Sativied (Feb 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> I meant the one from ledinside.com in particular.


The site may be a led hype site, the article may seem as such, the research is not. (it may be premature or flawed or w/e). I'm not doing another rant on the greenhouse industry here but again, Wageningen UR and IDC and their properly conducted professional experiments have nothing to do with hype, on the very contrary. It's partly government funded research as our economy largely depends on it, especially tomatos (not even kidding, where do you think italians make pasta sauce with all year long). Energy for artificial lighting is one of the main expenses, but no professional greenhouse owner for who the research is done is interested in hypes, only numbers.

Which reminds me of a book I wanted to recommend after something you mentioned in a pm, regarding testing nutes:
http://link.springer.com/book/10.1007/978-90-481-2532-6
That's written by a professor at Wageningen UR and contains a lot of details, facts based on proper research, about nutrientsin various mediums.


Not the report/conclusion, but here's some info and perhaps a better impression of that strawberry led experiment: http://www.wageningenur.nl/en/Expertise-Services/Research-Institutes/Wageningen-UR-Greenhouse-Horticulture/show/Strawberries-planted-at-IDC-Flavour-in-Bleiswijk.htm


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## UncleBuck (Feb 21, 2015)

so has anyone jacked their temps up to 94 and turned off their lights in the middle of the day for an hour, like OP does?


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## greendave (Feb 21, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> You also need to add about 3" more soil to that pot.
> 
> Light intensity should be adjusted according to a plant's light saturation point. A very important concept that is NEVER discussed in forums with the exception of me bringing it up now and then.
> 
> Like Riddle said, it's the sum of the parts.


La de da


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## bellcore (Feb 22, 2015)

UncleBuck said:


> so has anyone jacked their temps up to 94 and turned off their lights in the middle of the day for an hour, like OP does?


I'm giving a 30 minute midday break and now have my remote temp sensor just below the canopy. Also just picked up a used Sun Blaze T5HO-24 on craigslist yesterday to supplement the 250w HID. It has 4 6500k veg bulbs in it. 

For flower I'm thinking 
(2) 3000k generic bulbs 
(1) ATI True Antic (approximately 420nm) or (1) ZoomMed Reptisun 10 UVB
(1) ATI Coral Plus (around 15000K+) or (1) ZooMed OceanSun 10000k 420 Daylight

Any comments/suggestions from people that have been members of RIU for more than three months? Thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Efficiency is one of the few numbers that means exactly the same thing on paper and in reality. You could take a kil-o-watt meter to measure how efficient your driver is.


I roast coffee and many in this hobby have a Kill-O-Watt meter. Funny you should mention it. I think that meter and a light meter would worth your while if you're a serious indoor gardener. http://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424613270&sr=8-1&keywords=kill+o+watt


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## Sativied (Feb 22, 2015)

Unless you have a unique setup with multiple bulbs or experiment with diy leds a light meter is a waste of money and the serious grower would imo be better of getting some pro advice. Any good light and hood manufacturer can give you a light recipe (based on professional meters) for your setup and tell you exactly how much ppfd per sqft / m2 a certain light with a given hood at a certain distance will result in.



TheChemist77 said:


> how do u figure the watts per square ft? can 1 600 watt hps cover a 4x6 ft area? or would 2 400 watters be better, or even 2 600 watters?


2x600 or 1 kWatt, either would work very well in that space (I'd got for 1k).

The difference in efficiency between (quality) 600w HPS and 1000w isn't really large enough anymore to consider if you got a small space like that. The best light is largely dictated by the space.

Watt by itself means little, what's more relevant (besides spectrum...) is PPFD.

Too much light on a plant can cause saturation... which can happen if you supply too much light at once, or give it too many hours light.

The ideal PPFD (which is pretty much the spread, if you raise the bulb, you spread out the ppf decreasing the density) is figured out for all indoor grow species. Some plants don't give a fuck about the length of day, like roses (don't need dark hours at all and still don't get saturated and should get 20-24 hours light).


*************
Effect of different photosynthetic photon flux densities (0, 500, 1000, 1500 and 2000 μmol m−2s−1), temperatures (20, 25, 30, 35 and 40 °C) and CO2 concentrations (250, 350, 450, 550, 650 and 750 μmol mol−1) on gas and water vapour exchange characteristics of _Cannabis sativa_ L. were studied to determine the suitable and efficient environmental conditions for its indoor mass cultivation for pharmaceutical uses. The rate of photosynthesis (PN) and water use efficiency (WUE) of _Cannabis sativa_ increased with photosynthetic photon flux densities (PPFD) at the lower temperatures (20–25 °C). At 30 °C, PN and WUE increased only up to 1500 μmol m−2s−1 PPFD and decreased at higher light levels*. *The maximum rate of photosynthesis (PN max) was observed at 30 °C and under 1500 μmol m−2s−1 PPFD. The rate of transpiration (E) responded positively to increased PPFD and temperature up to the highest levels tested (2000 μmol m−2s−1 and 40 °C). Similar to E, leaf stomatal conductance (gs) also increased with PPFD irrespective of temperature. However, gs increased with temperature up to 30 °C only. Temperature above 30 °C had an adverse effect on gs in this species. Overall, high temperature and high PPFD showed an adverse effect on PN and WUE. A continuous decrease in intercellular CO2 concentration (Ci) and therefore, in the ratio of intercellular CO2 to ambient CO2 concentration (Ci/Ca) was observed with the increase in temperature and PPFD. However, the decrease was less pronounced at light intensities above 1500 μmol m−2s−1. *In view of these results, temperature and light optima for photosynthesis was concluded to be at 25–30 °C and ∼1500 μmol m−2s−1 respectively*. Furthermore, plants were also exposed to different concentrations of CO2 (250, 350, 450, 550, 650 and 750 μmol mol−1) under optimum PPFD and temperature conditions to assess their photosynthetic response. Rate of photosynthesis, WUE and Ci decreased by 50 %, 53 % and 10 % respectively, and Ci/Ca, E and gs increased by 25 %, 7 % and 3 % respectively when measurements were made at 250 μmol mol-1 as compared to ambient CO2 (350 μmol mol−1) level. Elevated CO2 concentration (750 μmol mol−1) suppressed E and gs ∼ 29% and 42% respectively, and stimulated PN, WUE and Ci by 50 %, 111 % and 115 % respectively as compared to ambient CO2 concentration. The study reveals that this species can be efficiently cultivated in the range of 25 to 30 °C and ∼1500 μmol m−2s−1 PPFD. Furthermore, higher PN, WUE and nearly constant Ci/Ca ratio under elevated CO2 concentrations in _C. sativa_, reflects its potential for better survival, growth and productivity in drier and CO2 rich environment.
**************

Those are the temps I recommend as a long as they are in between 25-30C I don't make an effort to change it.
The above is based on tests with a mexican variety.


I'm 99% sure that article @RM3 linked to earlier, the article http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/item/lumens-are-for-humans.html is written by that forum admin turned gavita employee 'whazzup'. For really good discussions - not conversations - about lighting (HPS) look up his posts at icmag (member since 2006...), thcfarmer and other forums.

********From that article*********
Roughly these are a few examples of recommendations for a high light recipe of around 700 µmol m-2 s-1. Calculations made with 10% reflector / wall losses:

400W a) - 1 x 1 m - 1 m2 at a ppfd of ~ 650 µmol m-2 s-1
600W b) - 1,2 x 1,2 m - 1,44 m2 at a ppfd of ~ 690 µmol m-2 s-1
1000W c) - 1,5 x 1,5 m - 2,25 m2 at a ppfd of ~800 µmol m-2 s-1
********

1000watt on 4x4' would roughly produce 1400 ppfd minus 10% reflection/wall loss is roughly 1250 left. Doable especially with good climate control. By using the same light on 5x5 or 4x6 you're likely to get more yield. Since the light pattern also won't be completely uniform, there will likely be peak areas that exceed the 1500ppfd in a small/minimal space.

I tried to find something about midday depression at WUR but the term doesn't translate literally to something useful. Considering the enormous amount of electricity spent in the greenhouse industry here, light schedules are extremely important and I expect to find some better info but found a bunch of papers about assimilation saturation, and comments how that with some species typically occurs at midday. Which turns out to be often a result of low humidity and high temps outdoors... (like in Texas?).


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2015)

Except in my greenhouse, I don't use the light meter for specifics. I use it only as a point of reference.

Say you have an imaginary 4 quadrants for your garden's footprint. At the same height relative to the lights quadrant A is coming in at 2,500 f.c. Quadrant D is coming at 6,250 f.c. Plant #7 needs more light and is in Quadrant A. So.........you move it over to Quadrant D as a garden tweek.

Not understanding the Texas comment. As you know it's a big state and there must be a thousand different micro climates. My normal August weather at 4:00 p.m. is 35-37C and around 25% RH if we haven't had rain in a week or so.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 22, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Watt by itself means little, what's more relevant (besides spectrum...) is PPFD.


It is meaningless in the real world as it doesn't take into account NONE of the factors that go into what a plant actually receives. But you have to remember this is a pot forum and folks like to take the easy way out.



> Too much light on a plant can cause saturation... which can happen if you supply too much light at once, or give it too many hours light.


That right there my friend is the ONLY relevant, meaningful issue - finding out the plant's light saturation point where too much is not only detrimental to plant health (bleaches out the chlorophyll etc.) but reduces photosynthesis.

If you got bucks to burn buy a chlorophyll density meter.

This guy's antics are definately worth watching. He uses a chlorophyll meter so you can see first hand how valuable that meter is.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCM9NFQyhED5EkAl7dWVsYfQ

That was some interesting info about the temps, CO2.


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 22, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Unless you have a unique setup with multiple bulbs or experiment with diy leds a light meter is a waste of money and the serious grower would imo be better of getting some pro advice. Any good light and hood manufacturer can give you a light recipe (based on professional meters) for your setup and tell you exactly how much ppfd per sqft / m2 a certain light with a given hood at a certain distance will result in.
> 
> 2x600 or 1 kWatt, either would work very well in that space (I'd got for 1k).
> 
> ...




damn, thats alot to swollow!! but i think i get it, i have my room on a thermostat, the ambient room temp is 62f but at the top of the canopy it never gets above 74f.. if the room gets above 62, the intake and exaughsts kick on till room is at 60f, i have a thermometer at canopy under lights and it has never been above 74 except in the summer i change room temp to 72f then the canopy temp gets to 84f..having my room in a cool basement helps keep temps low even in summer..so 2 600's are best for my 4x6 area although you say i could even switch to a 1,000 watt hps insted..ive been told putting 3 400,s over or 2 600's is better than a thousand watt hps because lights can be placed closer to canopy..also i am using cool tube reflectors now, but im buying new reflectors w 6 inch intake and exaughst holes but taking out the glass for better light.. thanks for the info!!


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## Sativied (Feb 22, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> As you know it's a big state and there must be a thousand different micro climates. My normal August weather at 4:00 p.m. is 35-37C and around 25% RH if we haven't had rain in a week or so.


Everything is big in Texas  But no, honestly I didn't expect a thousand different micro climates but generally dry and hot (and googled quickly up front...) weather.

My point was simply that what Riddle perceives as midday depression could possibly be addressed by better climate control and may be something he experiences more because he happens to be in a dry and hot climate or setup (usually the former influences the latter unless it's sealed). My non-ventilated T8 setup gets dry and hot. Non ventilated also means no CO2 refreshing, and possibly a build up of oxygen. Guess, what, those are all possible reasons for assimilation saturation and stagnation (stomatas - we call them leaf mouths, closing). In short, I suspect steering the climate better is a better way to go than just giving up for half an hour a day.



Uncle Ben said:


> That right there my friend is the ONLY relevant, meaningful issue - finding out the plant's light saturation point where too much is not only detrimental to plant health (bleaches out the chlorophyll etc.) but reduces photosynthesis.


"It is well known that a higher light intensity leads to higher photosynthesis rate. This starts out linear (1% more light = 1% more photosynthesis) but with higher intensities the added value of more light reduces (1% more light < 1% more photosynthesis), and with very high intensities light saturation occurs (1% more light= 0% more photosynthesis) and light stress occurs. [Which indeed ends up actually reducing photosynthesis]"



"lichtverzadiging" is saturation point. Yellow is wasted.

That's from one of many research docs that specifically tests light and co2 saturation for specific species, in this case Ficus.



Uncle Ben said:


> If you got bucks to burn buy a chlorophyll density meter.
> 
> This guy's antics are definately worth watching. He uses a chlorophyll meter so you can see first hand how valuable that meter is in the link - testing Great White mycos.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r4m7XR0NA9Y
> https://www.youtube.com/user/BrightGreenThumb


I do actually and it's been on my wishlist for a while, got some digital money at amazon I need to burn, and I have seen them and maybe even mentioned it about a year ago. Not sure if those at amazon are any good. Will check out those videos first. I wanted it specifically for my hydro setup where I control the nutrients more but doing another round on soil first where the point is to do as little as possible.


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## churchhaze (Feb 22, 2015)

It's actually possible to get better results using PPFD above 1500umol*m^2*s^2 indoors with taller plants assuming no side lighting. This is obviously because it will put lower leaves closer to 1500umol*m^2*s^2, of course you'll fry the tops a bit!

1500umol*m^2*s^2 of pure 660nm would likely burn a hole in the top of the plant before penetrating.

Also keep in mind that PPFD does not take into consideration that red photons have less energy than blue photons. It simply measures the photon flux density, not the PAR density. Granted, that might be moot point.. lol  I read somewhere that blue photons actually damage the photosystems when absorbed, and are used more to signal the plant that it's under intense light.


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## churchhaze (Feb 22, 2015)

A lot of lighting companies will hype up their lamps' PPFD or PAR density, but won't tell you it's at the cost of a *significantly reduced footprint.*

This is more of an LED thing. They will cram a ton of LEDs together, put a tight lens on it, then boast the highest PFFD of all lights, with a footprint that's too small to grow even one plant. (it's usually/always to cover up for the fact that their product is crap)

Total power output or total PPF (not PPFD) out is more important when considering a light source than PPFD or PAR density (intensity).

Putting a tight lens on a product concentrates the light, but does not produce any extra light.

Oldest trick in the new book.


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## Sativied (Feb 22, 2015)

Reading that site I got the image from some more, might be interesting to mention, it's from energiek2020.nu 

"Together with government, the ambition has been formulated that all greenhouses constructed after 2020 are to be near-independent of fossil fuel. Growing in these greenhouses will be sustainable and cost-effective. Moreover, the aim for these new greenhouses is to supply sustainable heat and electricity."
http://www.energiek2020.nu/fileadmin/user_upload/energiek2020/docs/Algemeen/Leaflet_Engels.pdf (english leaflet)

82% of the nearly 7,000,000,000kilowatt greenhouses use every year is used for light. To put that in perspective, that's enough to power New York for nearly 2 years. And to put that in perspective, New York is in square miles 10 times larger than the area covered by greenhouses here (so bright it's visible from space...).

Needless to say, lots of light steering/color/spectrum tuning research (link), phytochrome balance, mcree curves (no surprise greengenes mentioned those at riu) for specific species, _a mix of botany and technology_. And anything to reduce electricity cost of the lighting, including putting money in proper research. Just an example: tomato growing with 50% less electricity, budget $250K. 

Or Light color research:
http://www.energiek2020.nu/fileadmin/user_upload/energiek2020/onderzoek/licht/docs/Lichtkleurenonderzoek-1.pdf
None of the research seems to be published in english unfortunately.... BUT, you can download, and upload to google translate and it will actually produce a surprisingly readable translation (without the images)

*******
4.2
Hypothesis missing link for increased production
The following general hypothesis underlying the research that will lead to
answering the research questions formulated in 3.4:
Exposure with a spectrum in which the photoreceptors sent into the plant in a more natural balance
to increase the production potential of high wire fruit vegetable relative
exposure to conventional grow lights.

With a 'natural balance' is a photoreceptor balance like a natural daylight spectrum
and designed with "conventional grow lights' SON-T [most common hps] lamps and combinations of red and blue
Referred to LEDs. The spectral composition of these types of lamp leads to a completely different
photoreceptor balance than the spectrum of light. The said types of lamp rays (virtually) no
wavelengths in the reddened area (700 to 780 nm; see Figure 4), so that the phytochrome balance
extreme is sent in the direction of active phytochrome (see Figure 3).

In addition, the light spectrum is a continuous spectrum, while SON-T and red / blue LEDs do not light
radiate in many parts of the PAR region (400-700nm). This leads to a different stimulation of the
different photoreceptors compared to daylight. The proportion of blue light (400 to 500 nm) within
PAR-area is also significantly lower: ± 4.8% at SON-T and often 5-15% in the combination LED
red / blue, as compared to ± 30% in daylight. As a result, with the said lamp types the
cryptochromes and fototropinen stimulated significantly less than with the same amount
micromoles of daylight
*******


----------



## Sativied (Feb 22, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> If you got bucks to burn buy a chlorophyll density meter.
> 
> This guy's antics are definately worth watching. He uses a chlorophyll meter so you can see first hand how valuable that meter is.
> 
> ...


Forgot to add the source, easy to google (ppfd cannabis sativa L. ) but for the sake of completeness and 1 more free page:
*Photosynthetic response of Cannabis sativa L. to variations in photosynthetic photon flux densities, temperature and CO2 conditions*
http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s12298-008-0027-x

EDIT: full 8 pages:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0ByW-RytTeYMQYmYzYjU2ZDctMGJiMC00ZTRiLWE4YzctMThjYmE0ZGRhYWE2/edit?pli=1

It's actually still a bit more expensive than I remembered but I was referring to this thing:
http://www.amazon.com/atLEAF-Digital-Chlorophyll-Meter-Software/dp/B008DG2B96/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1424635409&sr=8-1&keywords=chlorophyll meter
Not a whole lot of reviews...


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## churchhaze (Feb 22, 2015)

Sativied said:


> "The said types of lamp rays (virtually) no
> wavelengths in the reddened area (700 to 780 nm; see Figure 4), so that the phytochrome balance
> extreme is sent in the direction of active phytochrome (see Figure 3)."


If you look carefully at the spectrum generated by HPS, the red to far-red ratio is about 2:1 which I think plays a large role in why it's been successful as a flowering lamp. Also, yellow-amber wavelengths cause the active state of phytochrome (Pfr) to be lower than red wavelengths as well, working sort of like far-red and contributing to shade avoidance effect.

80cri white led phosphors have a red:far-red ratio of around 6:1, but has a similar yellow-amber peak where most of the light is centered around.

A higher %Pfr (percent of phytochrome in active state) during the day effectively shortens night lengths by making it take longer for %Pfr to reach 0% (all phytochrome in inactive state). The highest %Pfr can theoretically go is ~85% with pure 660nm light, and the lowest it can go is ~0% with 730nm light. This is apparent by comparing the absorbance ratios of both forms at different wavelengths to see where %Pfr would converge at that wavelength. This is why phytochrome is easier related to dichromic color vision allowing plants to see a gradient.



Sativied said:


> In addition, the light spectrum is a continuous spectrum, while SON-T and red / blue LEDs do not light
> radiate in many parts of the PAR region (400-700nm). This leads to a different stimulation of the
> different photoreceptors compared to daylight. The proportion of blue light (400 to 500 nm) within
> PAR-area is also significantly lower: ± 4.8% at SON-T and often 5-15% in the combination LED
> ...


This is also interesting because the 3000k 80cri phosphors used in white leds also contains about 13% in the blue region.


----------



## churchhaze (Feb 22, 2015)

Another very strange phenomenon to note about HPS lamps vs fluorescent and LEDs is when you turn HPS off, they continue to glow a dim red from being hot. This dim glow has a very low red:far-red ratio and actually contributes to lowering the active state of phytochrome after lights out. Realizing this, a lot of people have speculated that this could be another reason HPS is such a winner.


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## genuity (Feb 22, 2015)

All this brain food.......love it.


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## Sativied (Feb 22, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> .ive been told putting 3 400,s over or 2 600's is better than a thousand watt hps because lights can be placed closer to canopy.


Placing the light closer to the canopy is not really a goal or benefit by itself.

Aim a classic flashlight with a cone shape beam at the wall, note the light circle. Back off a few feet, notice the circle increased in size but is less intense (because density decreases). In the same way raising a grow light decreases the ppfd, it decreases the light on a given surface. But, it also increase the surface that receives light. No need to hang it lower or higher than needed to get a somewhat uniform footprint in the space you got to work with.

Random example ripped from growershouse.com, hps bulb on 4x4', PAR readings:


In the first, at 24" height, you can see that that difference between the corners/edges and the center is larger than in the other two which provide a more uniform pattern. If you go too high you end up directing too much light towards the walls instead of the plants, if you go too low you concentrate the light in the center of the surface instead of spreading it out uniformly. That's why a light meter (or spending that money on a light setup from a reliable manufacturer who can provide reliable data) can be handy.

You need about 3ft for a 1kW but that differs per hood and not all 1000watters are good for 4x6. It's not uncommon to attach a gavita to the ceiling and let the plants grow towards it. The taller they get and the more they fill the canopy the more direct light and the higher the ppfd they receive. Not saying it's better than 2x600w, just that both options would work for that space.


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## UncleBuck (Feb 22, 2015)

bellcore said:


> I'm giving a 30 minute midday break and now have my remote temp sensor just below the canopy. Also just picked up a used Sun Blaze T5HO-24 on craigslist yesterday to supplement the 250w HID. It has 4 6500k veg bulbs in it.
> 
> For flower I'm thinking
> (2) 3000k generic bulbs
> ...


you know that midday depression is crap, right? it's triggered by high temps, so does not apply to climate controlled indoor grows.

it's spam from idiots who think they understand science.


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## bellcore (Feb 22, 2015)

I want reading into the science too much. A break during the day to allow heat to dissipate is the reason I jumped to accept it.


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## Bamabudy (Feb 22, 2015)

I have been trying the 24/7 light cycle growing my mother plant she is very healthy and looking great using 400 w MH and 4 100 w equivalent LEDs. Will it hurt are shock my plant at all if I change to 18/6 to keep in veg while I clone off of her? 
She is a Dutch passion Orange bud chose because of easy to grow and this will be my first go at cloning. ( any advice about cloning wil be appreciated also.
Happy growing.


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 22, 2015)

right now i have 2 cool tube reflectors, would i be better off getting new reflectors w the 6 inch duct hookups but take out the glass?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2015)

Sativied, great stuff there. The YouTube videos are indeed worth watching just to see how that meter registers relative to his experiments.

Having said that, with all the challenges and inputs required in the Netherlands why not move your ops to an area around say, 35* latitude, grow outdoors or in a greenhouse depending on the crop and ship it back? Aren't the greenhouse grown tomatoes you're buying just a "tad" bit expensive?

I grow alot of my own food and it's damn cheap & delicious. Have to admit that the first avocado cost $30,000 but I'm getting a helluva load of excellent citrus, maters, herbs and soon gourmet avocados, mango, and pineapples from the greenhouse. We cook (and can/pickle) a lot so 10 varieties of fresh herbs and all kinds of veggies sure comes in handy. Do YOUR part for Affordable Healthcare.....reject charlatans like Obama.


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## Sativied (Feb 23, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Having said that, with all the challenges and inputs required in the Netherlands why not move your ops to an area around say, 35* latitude, grow outdoors or in a greenhouse depending on the crop and ship it back?


Pre-hydroponics I would have said "the soil". Turns out turning sea into land results in great fertile soil (clay). It's not just grow ops, those are just part of the machine. Rotterdam, largest port in Europe, is also hard to take along yet it and its location itself is a vital part. Logistics is essential in a competitive market with fresh food. Some veggies are shipped to New York the same day they are harvested in NL.



Uncle Ben said:


> Aren't the greenhouse grown tomatoes you're buying just a "tad" bit expensive?


I often literally said "vegetables and fruit costs nothing".

A quick search shows a kilo tomatoes results in as little as 0-15 cents for a greenhouse grower, as little as 'zero' cent sometimes. We could probably feed an entire country in Africa with the all the stuff we through away... It costs me roughly $1-$2 per kilo in a store, less if I go to the market (especially end of the day...). All year long.

 Every town or large neighborhood in every city "has market" once or twice a week. One street or square with lots of small stands with fresh fish, veggies, fruit, meat, chicken etc. Someone who would work 1 day per month at minimum wage can afford to buy food for a whole month.

I don't know how that compares to other countries, but logically they can't be very expensive because most are produced to compete.

"The Netherlands, the world's largest tomato exporter"
http://www.freshplaza.com/article/115594/The-Netherlands,-the-worlds-largest-tomato-exporter
"Although the Dutch tomato was once reviled, the Germans calling it a 'water bomb,' Dutch growers sought a solution to save their reputation. They came up with 'tomatoes on the vine,' explained Miranda van den Ende, manager of Tomato world. "This tomato was not picked when green, but ended up ripe in the shop.'"



Uncle Ben said:


> I grow alot of my own food and it's damn cheap & delicious. Have to admit that the first avocado cost $30,000 but I'm getting a helluva load of excellent citrus, maters, herbs and soon gourmet avocados, mango, and pineapples from the greenhouse. We cook (and can/pickle) a lot so 10 varieties of fresh herbs and all kinds of veggies sure comes in handy.


Not many things I'd like more than to grow my own veggies. After seeing all those greenhouse veggies while googling I started looking for some space yesterday... Small houses here in cities, even smaller gardens. Something people have been doing for decades is grow veggies and herbs in so called 'people's gardens' (lost in translation).

Every piece is usually from a different owner.


Often near train rails too (railway co was once from government, owns land near stations as a buffer for growth, one of the few available areas)


I got several of such locations in my area, and a local supermarket is having a sale this week, plastic mini greenhouse for 50 bucks...


----------



## Sativied (Feb 23, 2015)

After that hijack, some light info 

*Spectral Analysis of the Philips Elite Agro 315W*
http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_analysis.pdf 

Check out the tables with characteristics of sun light vs various electrical light sources (HPS, CMH, HO T8 and T5 and CFL).

(tagging @GroErr, perhaps an interesting pdf for you too).

And on a similar note, that 400w HPI-T Plus I use (for a couple of weeks between T8 and HPS 600w) is not an HPS lamp... it's an MH. It works well for the short use I use it for and I can't say I mind I got that one, but it's definitely not what I asked for at the growshop.


----------



## GroErr (Feb 23, 2015)

Sativied said:


> After that hijack, some light info
> 
> *Spectral Analysis of the Philips Elite Agro 315W*
> http://www.cycloptics.com/sites/default/files/USU_spectral_analysis.pdf
> ...


Hey Sativied, thanks, hadn't seen this one. The Elite Agro spectral charts are what originally got me interested in these bulbs, amazing coverage in the whole range we need for MJ. 

Interesting they never mention which bulb, I run the 3100k but the 4200k could be the one they're referring to as their chart looks closer to it. I may try the 4200k bulbs at some point, I don't need it for vegging but if you were vegging/flowering under the same light and wanted to run a single bulb, I think the 4200k would be the one to use.


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## Sativied (Feb 23, 2015)

GroErr said:


> I may try the 4200k bulbs at some point, I don't need it for vegging but if you were vegging/flowering under the same light and wanted to run a single bulb, I think the 4200k would be the one to use.


I just looked up a post from that whazzup guy I mentioned a couple of times - will roughly translate some comments he made about the CMH (they tested them years ago). I'm sure this guy like all humans makes mistakes, but he's a real horticulture lighting expert _and_ mj grower/breeder.

Note this is about the CDM315... unless mentioned otherwise.

"It is already a much better lamp than an MH because it's more stable in several ways and the spectrum is also much better than MH"

"Do not expect UV from this lamp, the glass is UV-block." (based on the pdf above, it's still double that of hps, but not like T5... could be difference with elite series or something)

"Initially phillips did not plan to release the bulb in europe because the 942 (4200K) gives a better spectrum."

"To get the same amount of micromoles as a 1000watt you need 4 of them, which makes the plasma still interesting."

"Tests comparing the CDM/HPS to HPS+plasma showed the latter produced better quality" (could be entire subjective...)

"Plasma/HPS is a much cooler option" (temps, although I have to say those plasma looking very cool.

"It's not philips who says it's a plasma replacer, but a competitor who doesn't sell plasma" (he does mention it can be used as a cheaper alternative)

"Micromole-wise, umol/W, the elite agro wins, 1.9umol opposed to 1.1 for the plasma"

"In short, interesting for small spaces, I would use the (somewhat less efficient) 942 for veg or supplemental lighting" (phillips however specifically put more red in the agro versions).

"It will never become the primary light" (somewhat grabbed out of context, it may not be true for improved versions).

I have apart from the hood a 400w and a 600w set, magnetic ballasts, I could easily turn on that 400watt for some hours a day... Need to get new hps first and a shit load of other things... expensive hobby if you don't sell the harvest.


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## GroErr (Feb 23, 2015)

It's difficult to get specifics/data or real world tests on the Elite Ago's. But after using them for a few rounds if I had to start again from scratch, I'd go 2 of the Elite Ago's 315's 3100k's again vs. a 1k hps. The one quote I'd agree on is imo they're a better option for smaller spaces, particularly short spaces where you don't have the room/height to dissipate or extract the heat from hps. If I threw a 1000w hps in my flower room, it would be the only light I could have in there, loosing a lot of flexibility. Not worth it imo and questionable as I think 2 of the 315's can match a 1000w hps if you're growing for numbers. Never mind the power and equipment savings as I don't have to worry about heat. 4" intake, 4" exhaust both running between the lowest and 1/3rd throttle, and if I wanted to I could run an additional 200w of LED's in that room and still manage the heat.

To satisfy my curiosity and a personal challenge, I have a round coming up in about 2 weeks where I'll be pushing 1x Elite Agro 315w to about 3x4' and going for a pound with some Blue Dream's. Now that would be efficient, the equivalent of ~3 lbs from a 1000w hps. Cheers.


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## UncleBuck (Feb 23, 2015)

bellcore said:


> I want reading into the science too much. A break during the day to allow heat to dissipate is the reason I jumped to accept it.


a gentle breeze from an oscillating fan, and exhaust vent, and climate control do the exact same. plus the plants get to continue photosynthesis.


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## a mongo frog (Feb 23, 2015)

UncleBuck said:


> a gentle breeze from an oscillating fan, and exhaust vent, and climate control do the exact same. plus the plants get to continue photosynthesis.


pretty good point right here. could work, who knows...


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 23, 2015)

Sorry about the hijack but that really is interesting Sativied. If those prices are in USD, your wages must also be ultra low too.


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## UncleBuck (Feb 23, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> pretty good point right here. could work, who knows...


it somehow puts food on my table.

maybe i'm learning what makes a plant tick.


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## Sativied (Feb 23, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sorry about the hijack but that really is interesting Sativied. If those prices are in USD, your wages must also be ultra low too.


On the very contrary. Students working in the greenhouse industry here already get paid $10 per hour, in the US the minimum for adults is $7-ish dollar according to a quick google search. Not only are the wages not low, employees are generally expensive because of taxes and insurances (doubling the cost of the wage or more).

In Luxembourg (small country close to NL, richest country in Europe) and perhaps Norway (where they've been wiser with the gas reserves than we and everyone could on average be a millionaire) are the minimum wages higher than in NL. Belgium is similar, Germany too, UK lower but close enough and the rest... is up to 5 times lower. Since the EU, we get a lot of season workers form other european countries who gladly do some labor for our minimum wages. Many of the kids who wanted to be farmer here walk in suits or white coats.

Well... labor... Most of the time there are surprisingly few employees working in a greenhouse.

Some don't even have to walk:




Search noord tomaten on youtube. Videos showing what seems to be an entire year, sometimes a week per video, sometimes multiple weeks.

Week 52:





Week 1 (or 'a' week).





Those people make more than someone at the MacDonalds or a cashier or call center employee etc.


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## Sativied (Feb 23, 2015)

The medium in those videos is rockwool starter blocks on Mapito slabs, that's actually the common hydro method for mj grows too:


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 24, 2015)

Amazing photos/videos, and something to be really proud of.


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## Sativied (Feb 28, 2015)

An Economic Analysis of Greenhouse Lighting - *LED vs HPS*

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__8264567.pdf
From uni in Utah. Just skimmed through it, looks good.



As usual gavita nearly as good as phillips.*

http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/fixtures/d-papillon CMH fixtures.

Ugly things...






Not suitable for noobs without reflective walls.




Sativied said:


> "In short, interesting for small spaces, I would use the (somewhat less efficient) 942 for veg or supplemental lighting" (phillips however specifically put more red in the agro versions).


Light source:
Luminous flux : 36,000 lumen
PPF 4200K DAYLIGHT: 550 μmol ("somewhat less efficient")
PPF 3100K GreenPower 600 μmol

Just as classic 600w son-t greenpower hps the greenpower series are red flower bulbs.
*GreenPower lamp (3100K)*
Thee GreenPower lamp is optimized in a broad spectrum with a peak in the 660nm DeepRed area. The peak in the 660nm DeepRed area makes the plant more generative which results in a stronger bloom of the plant in the flowering stage.
*Daylight lamp (4200K)*
The daylight lamp is optimized in a broad spectrum growthlight with an increased share of blue light. The lamp can be used for the growth stage of the plant. [and supplement hps]

http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/fixtures/d-papillon


*Well, in practice:


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 28, 2015)

any body see the new ipower 600 watt led? any good? or better going w/ mars grow led?


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## Sativied (Feb 28, 2015)

GroErr said:


> Not worth it imo and questionable as I think 2 of the 315's can match a 1000w hps if you're growing for numbers.


It can match 'a' 1000w hps perhaps (if you compare the phillips cmh bulbs to a cheap hps) but it cannot match 'the' 1000w hps (philips vs philips).

2x315watt on 4x4' is 743 µmol/m²s
1x600watt on 4x4' is 737 µmol/m²s
1x1000watt on 4x4' is 1342 µmol/m²s

A huge output difference the spectrum difference won't make up for.

Using multiple fixtures is apart from better, more uniform, spread (and than the 1000w would still work fine for a matching surface) not considered an advantage.


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 28, 2015)

Sativied said:


> It can match 'a' 1000w hps perhaps (if you compare the phillips cmh bulbs to a cheap hps) but it cannot match 'the' 1000w hps (philips vs philips).
> 
> 2x315watt on 4x4' is 743 µmol/m²s
> 1x600watt on 4x4' is 737 µmol/m²s
> ...



OK. So, if I wanted to use my 2x 315w CMH 4200K for veg, do you think I could use those two bulbs alone or should I also have a low watt HPS (maybe 250 or 400w) just as an extra photon cannon? Assuming a 4x8 space


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## Sativied (Feb 28, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> OK. So, if I wanted to use my 2x 315w CMH 4200K* for veg, do you think I could use those two bulbs alone *or should I also have a low watt HPS (maybe 250 or 400w) just as an extra photon cannon? Assuming a 4x8 space


For veg that should work, not ideal really, but apparently it works. During flowering they'd make better add-ons (on the high orange-red son-t philips hps that is) but in small setups that's hard with hid bulbs. You can't get a good uniform mixed spectrum across the surface with for example 1x315w cmh and 1x600/1000watt hps.

Instead of adding said low watt hps you'd probably be better off adding another 315w. They don't provide a completely square footprint (not with those batwings) so if you'd place them like | | | (instead of - - - ) and fold the hoods properly you could get a fairly even spread on 4x8.

That 743 µmol/m²s is based on two 315w 3100K on 4x4', 2x 4200K would amount to 681 µmol/m²s on 4x4.

1500 µmol/m²s max but you don't want to go there unless you can evenly spread it, and it's also not efficient (the last 500 µmol extra results in far less weight than the first 1000).

900-1100 works fine to get a max full bud-to-bud field. For vegging, especially initially, it requires far less.

Using 2 x 4200K on 4x8 is only 340 µmol/m²s, using 3 gives you 511 µmol/m²s

A better comparison is what you get with the 315w 4200k on a square meter, which is 506 µmol/m²s.

The difference with 2 and 3 would be mostly veg time and not yield per cycle. If you veg for 6 weeks or so normally that could make a significant difference per year, but not if you have a separate veg space.

Numbers are estimates based on http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/estimate#calc

Seems the papilon fixtures are pricey, but this one could be interesting for less rectangular spaces than yours (on 4x8 2 fixtures gives better spread).
http://www.epapillon.com/index.php/fixtures/double-d-papillon


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

The photons output per electric watt input is probably the most important factor of a lamp, but consider that blue photons generated carry more energy. 15% between 400-500nm is a considered a good amount of blue.

A hypothetical light that only emits 730nm photons will have 0% PAR, low electrical efficiency, while boasting a high photons output/watts input. You could also have a light that only emits 450nm with very high efficiency, but has the same number of photons output as the 730nm light, but less energy stored per photon.

All that being said, even the generic HPS lamps will probably crush most of those LED brands.

This is exactly what we tell noobs in the LED section. If your plan is to get some cheap chinese panels based on older, low efficiency leds, you may as well use HID. I totally agree with the conclusion made in the study. HPS is better than the bad dog. It will produce the same, if not better for a considerably lower startup cost.

You're wasting your time with the mars shit. The new cree cxb chips can easily see 50-60% depending on how much you underdrive them, with 15% blue and a 3000k 80cri spectrum without having to deal with disco lights. High electrical efficiency white at a lower color temperature implies greater photon output per input watt.

You're lucky to get 30% efficiency with mars crap.



Sativied said:


> An Economic Analysis of Greenhouse Lighting - *LED vs HPS*
> 
> http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/publication/pub__8264567.pdf
> From uni in Utah. Just skimmed through it, looks good.
> ...


----------



## Sativied (Feb 28, 2015)

Never heard of Mars crap/shit, sounds organic though.


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

All I hear about recently is mars... "is mars good?" no. "well i just got it.. i'll tell you how it works out". great!! I can't wait to see the results..... not...

I scored 11 of the new cxb2590 3000k u2 bins that just came out and am currently working on drilling/tapping holes in some big ass heat sinks so I can screw in my shiny new cob holders!









uno...

I was really happy with the results from vero 18 and vero 29, and these are a step up in specs. They were released last week and destroy the last models in specs! According to the specs, I should be able to get the same PAR W output with 193W instead of 240W with the exact same spectrum!

LEDs is an expensive hobby. If someone asks about mars, I tell them to buy HPS. They make us all look bad! "growing with leds" means absolutely nothing!



Sativied said:


> Never heard of Mars crap/shit, sounds organic though.


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Never heard of Mars crap/shit, sounds organic though.


Half done!


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 28, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Half done!
> 
> View attachment 3361623


i can NOT build an led light, i dont understand the difference other than the way they look between a cob style and reg led light..can some body please give me an led that will cover a 4x4 area in FLOWERING for $600.00 or less.. i want to do a 4x4 side by side compare w/ an led vs a 600 watt hps..both will be covering a 4x4 ebb n flow table w/ same everything exept a led in 1 and the hps in the other.. Also do u really think the led will even come close in production? id prefer a $400.00 one or less but im hoping to get a decent led, reg or cob i dont know the dif or care but good for flowering...


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

Don't even bother trying to find a decent LED light for a 4x4 for under 600 dollars. It does not exist. Just stick with HPS.

It's not the style "cob" that makes it better, it's the specifics.



TheChemist77 said:


> i can NOT build an led light, i dont understand the difference other than the way they look between a cob style and reg led light..can some body please give me an led that will cover a 4x4 area in FLOWERING for $600.00 or less.. i want to do a 4x4 side by side compare w/ an led vs a 600 watt hps..both will be covering a 4x4 ebb n flow table w/ same everything exept a led in 1 and the hps in the other.. Also do u really think the led will even come close in production? id prefer a $400.00 one or less but im hoping to get a decent led, reg or cob i dont know the dif or care but good for flowering...


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 28, 2015)

then if it cant produce better than the 600 watt hps ill put a 400 watt hps in the hps room see if it can output that...but i really dont want to spend months and room wasted just to lose needed yields..so i hope the led you recomend can do just as well if not better than my 600 hps...


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 28, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> Don't even bother trying to find a decent LED light for a 4x4 for under 600 dollars. It does not exist. Just stick with HPS.
> 
> It's not the style "cob" that makes it better, it's the specifics.


ok, at what price does it exist? what brand, what style, cob, reg? also will it actually save on electric? ive noticed the ones i see that say they cover a 4x4 area are at least 600 watts,,,,so how is that saving electric?? what is better a cob or reg and why?


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## Sativied (Feb 28, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> ok, at what price does it exist? what brand, what style, cob, reg? also will it actually save on electric? ive noticed the ones i see that say they cover a 4x4 area are at least 600 watts,,,,so how is that saving electric?? what is better a cob or reg and why?


$2499 will do http://www.apachetechinc.com/white-red/25-at600.html


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

I'm serious, don't bother with those chinese epistar led panels. I can only vouch for vero 18 and vero 29 3000k 80cri whites, which produce exactly like HPS did for me in the past only with less power. The cxb just came out a week ago, and is even more efficient than vero and cxa.

You're right to be skeptical. Almost everyone insisting they're saving power and producing less heat are actually fooling themselves.

*HPS IS BETTER* than almost all leds you see people using.

Please don't buy some "affordable" leds and compare them to HPS just to be disappointed. Everyone knows you will get shit results and HPS will win.

DIY *white *cobs blows everything else out of the water.



TheChemist77 said:


> ok, at what price does it exist? what brand, what style, cob, reg? also will it actually save on electric? ive noticed the ones i see that say they cover a 4x4 area are at least 600 watts,,,,so how is that saving electric?? what is better a cob or reg and why?


----------



## ttystikk (Feb 28, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> I'm serious, don't bother with those chinese epistar led panels. I can only vouch for vero 18 and vero 29 3000k 80cri whites, which produce exactly like HPS did for me in the past only with less power. The cxb just came out a week ago, and is even more efficient than vero and cxa.
> 
> You're right to be skeptical. Almost everyone insisting they're saving power and producing less heat are actually fooling themselves.
> 
> ...


Tell me more about this DIY white COB. I'm thinking about a particular application... that certainly doesn't exist in the marketplace yet.


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

According to the datasheet, the efficiency of a cxb2530 3000k warm white u2 bin at 500mA is *49.1*%. That is the top model that was released recently, and will handle a 2'x4' tent with 193W of electric power and a 94% efficient driver.

By contrast, the vero 18 at 700mA is about 39.8% efficient, and HPS is 35% efficient. Area51 is 34% efficient.

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/Data and Binning/ds CXB2530.pdf

The datasheet does not outright tell you the efficiency, but we have a few people who digitize the spectrum charts and do the calculus needed to calculate LER. With LER, lumens can be converted to radiant watts to calculate efficiency. That's how we come up with the efficiency numbers.



TheChemist77 said:


> ok, at what price does it exist? what brand, what style, cob, reg? also will it actually save on electric? ive noticed the ones i see that say they cover a 4x4 area are at least 600 watts,,,,so how is that saving electric?? what is better a cob or reg and why?


----------



## ttystikk (Feb 28, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> According to the datasheet, the efficiency of a cxa2530 3000k warm white u2 bin at 500mA is *49.1*%. That is the top model that was released recently, and will handle a 2'x4' tent with 193W of electric power and a 94% efficient driver.
> 
> By contrast, the vero 18 at 700mA is about 39.8% efficient, and HPS is 35% efficient. Area51 is 34% efficient.


Cost per each? How many are required to provide equal light pressure (not 'equivalent results'- as we all know, this is hype 'statistic' based on guesswork) to a new 600W HPS lamp?

How much does the driver or controller cost and how many will it run?

What else is needed to make them operate properly in a grow room?

I just don't know much about the current state of the LED art.


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Cost per each? How many are required to provide equal light pressure (not 'equivalent results'- as we all know, this is hype 'statistic' based on guesswork) to a new 600W HPS lamp?
> 
> How much does the driver or controller cost and how many will it run?
> 
> ...


http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?KeyWords=CXB2530-0000-000N0HU230G&WT.z_header=search_go

Crazy Expensive.

To operate properly, you need big ass custom heat sinks, and an efficient constant current driver. You will have to learn to drill holes in aluminum and tap threads. Etc. It's really not something you can jump into without doing a lot of homework first.

30-35W/sqft was a good amount with my vero 18 at 700mA setup. It's too early to say definitively since it just came out, but I'm almost positive this new cxb top bin underdriven build will yield well with only 25-30W/sqft. I'll know soon enough, because its almost done and time to hang up!


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

This is what the vero 18 3500k 80cri light looks like. About 40% efficient. 80watts each. All 3 panels together go in a 4'x2' tent as well. The cxb panels are meant for a new tent that will compete side by side. Titled, the "80W UFO Killer"


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## Sativied (Feb 28, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> The datasheet does not outright tell you the efficiency, but we have a few people who digitize the spectrum charts and do the calculus needed to calculate LER. With LER, lumens can be converted to radiant watts to calculate efficiency. That's how we come up with the efficiency numbers.


With "a few people" are you referring to the led fans in the led forum here? So the efficiency numbers you mention is not even electrical efficiency but numbers the led fans came up with comparing to some streetlight hps?

The lumen per watt efficiency of a good 600watt hps is 10% higher than that new cree you mentioned. Misleading yes, just like 49 vs 35% not resulting in that nearly 50% yield difference or electricity savings.


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

First of all, I am running that LED at 500mA, not 800mA like the test current.

Second, there is no such thing as luminous efficiency. Efficiency is _always_ W/W. There is no type of efficiency that has units. Efficiency is always unitless. Lumens/watt is efficacy, not efficiency, and there are 2 types of luminous efficacy so it's even more confusing. It could mean the lumens per electric watt, or it could be lumens per watt of radiant power. In this case, it means lumens per electric watt input.

Because the spectrum of HPS is different than the spectrum of the 3000k 80cri white leds, lumen alone can not be used to determine radiant power output. You need to know for that given spectrum how many lumens there are per _radiant watt_ so you can convert lumens to radiant watts for that given spectrum.

The calculus these LED fans are doing (independent people doing the calculations) is digitizing the spectrum charts and using the relative phoptic luminous efficacy curve to find the actual radiant output in watts rather than lumens. There have been conflicting LER values by different "fans", but for the most part they've been very close.








That means that light sources with lots of green and yellow will have higher lumen count for the same radiant power, the same lumens of blue will be more radiant power than the same lumens of yellow according to those charts.

Third, I'm running at a considerably lower case temperature than the listed test temperature. Cree has pretty high test temperatures, making their specs look low.

And I'll show you results in grams soon enough. 





Sativied said:


> With "a few people" are you referring to the led fans in the led forum here? So the efficiency numbers you mention is not even electrical efficiency but numbers the led fans came up with comparing to some streetlight hps?
> 
> The lumen per watt efficiency of a good 600watt hps is 10% higher than that new cree you mentioned. Misleading yes, just like 49 vs 35% not resulting in that nearly 50% yield difference or electricity savings.


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## ttystikk (Feb 28, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> http://www.digikey.com/product-search/en?KeyWords=CXB2530-0000-000N0HU230G&WT.z_header=search_go
> 
> Crazy Expensive.
> 
> ...


Please invite me to the thread where you build and test it.

I'm running 20 W/ft² using HPS right now, with good results. I'm betting this would be a marked improvement.


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## churchhaze (Feb 28, 2015)

http://rollitup.org/t/diy-cxb2530-3000k-80cri-u2-bin-vero-killers.862298/

There won't be a journal, just an "instructional", but I do give out plant pictures once in a while.



ttystikk said:


> Please invite me to the thread where you build and test it.
> 
> I'm running 20 W/ft² using HPS right now, with good results. I'm betting this would be a marked improvement.


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## churchhaze (Mar 1, 2015)

Sativied said:


> With "a few people" are you referring to the led fans in the led forum here? So the efficiency numbers you mention is not even electrical efficiency but numbers the led fans came up with comparing to some streetlight hps?
> 
> The lumen per watt efficiency of a good 600watt hps is 10% higher than that new cree you mentioned. Misleading yes, just like 49 vs 35% not resulting in that nearly 50% yield difference or electricity savings.


After a nights worth of work, here's 22 drilled and tapped holes, etc. I bet it will do terrible flowering because it doesn't have a pink tinge to it!

193W of electric power dissipation, about 95W PAR according to the LED monkeys.

 

Hey @Sativied, I promise you it's 110% efficient!!


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## Pinworm (Mar 1, 2015)

Too much good info in here. This should be a sticky.


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## churchhaze (Mar 1, 2015)

Sativied said:


> just like 49 vs 35% not resulting in that nearly 50% yield difference or electricity savings.


How can you possibly know whether it results in more yield yet? It (cxb) just came out about a week ago, and I'm the first one who's posted a build/design using it. We're still waiting for more people to have their parts arrive and post pictures of their cxb builds.

Up until now, everyone's been praising cxa DIY builds as being top of the line. Cxb is a drop in replacement for cxa. There are no results yet, but considering cxb has flux bins a step up higher than cxa, I would expect even better yield.


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## ttystikk (Mar 1, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> How can you possibly know whether it results in more yield yet? It (cxb) just came out about a week ago, and I'm the first one who's posted a build/design using it. We're still waiting for more people to have their parts arrive and post pictures of their cxb builds.
> 
> Up until now, everyone's been praising cxa DIY builds as being top of the line. Cxb is a drop in replacement for cxa. There are no results yet, but considering cxb has flux bins a step up higher than cxa, I would expect even better yield.


What's a flux bin?


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## churchhaze (Mar 1, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> What's a flux bin?


For white leds, flux bin is a code that corresponds with an absolute lumen rating at test current and temperature. Each cob size, color temperature and cri has a different set of flux bins. The top bin is the most desirable.

It's a result of the manufacturing process being imperfect. They sort the best performers out and put them in higher flux bins, and the worst ones go in lower flux bins.

Page 7 of the datasheet for this particular array shows what each flux bin represents. Page 4 shows the 3000k 80cri option. U2 is the highest bin for that option and means 3680-3955 lumens at test current and temperature..

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED Components and Modules/XLamp/Data and Binning/ds CXB2530.pdf

Since the flux bins are absolute, top bins on larger, and more blue arrays tend to have higher available flux bins.


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## Sativied (Mar 1, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> How can you possibly know whether it results in more yield yet?


I'm not the one pretending to know whether it will yield more and how much exactly, down to a %...

I said it won't line up with those skewed wall plug efficiency percentages you mention as if they are all what matters when comparing light sources, and not what you twist it in, again, whether it yields more or not. I assume it doe,s for the same reason I know it won't line up with those percentages, I'm realistic in addition to skeptical.

If that imaginary 35-49% translates to reality, 2015 will be the last year I grow on HPS...


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## DrunkenRampage (Mar 1, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> None of the above.
> 
> The size of the lower buds is not related to light intensity. That is another forum myth. Read my thread Riddle linked you to.
> 
> ...


And people give me shit for putting three plants in ten gallon smart pots in a 4x4 tent


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## churchhaze (Mar 1, 2015)

Sativied said:


> I'm not the one pretending to know whether it will yield more and how much exactly, down to a %...
> 
> I said it won't line up with those skewed wall plug efficiency percentages you mention as if they are all what matters when comparing light sources, and not what you twist it in, again, whether it yields more or not. I assume it doe,s for the same reason I know it won't line up with those percentages, I'm realistic in addition to skeptical.
> 
> If that imaginary 35-49% translates to reality, 2015 will be the last year I grow on HPS...


Efficiency is not some mystical number that translates into g/w. It's simply power out vs power in. What's being calculated is the radiant power out in watts per a given power in. You're the one taking it a step further and insisting that to mean how good it is at growing weed. I haven't twisted anything. efficiency is efficiency.

If you power something at 1W and it outputs 0.5W, and wastes 0.5W, it's 50% efficient. If you power something at 1W and get 1g, it's 1g _effective_.


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## churchhaze (Mar 1, 2015)

When did i say 35-49%. I straight up claimed 49.1% at the current and temperature I have them operating at, not 35-49%.

193W of electricity converted to 94.8W of radiation and 98.2W of heat. You can feel the radiation!! *It will light fires *if you put the light source too close to wood, as if you were holding a magnifying glass up to the sun (only there are no optics). You will end up with black spots in less than a minute, not from conduction, but radiant heat!

Another way to find efficiency is to measure the heat output by the heat sink using a calorimeter. If you know how much is wasted and how much went in, you can subtract to find power output. If the efficiency calculations were wrong, the heat sinks would dissipate a lot more heat per watt input. Instead, the more efficient cobs translate to less heat sink requirement per input watt, which you'd expect.


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## ttystikk (Mar 1, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> When did i say 35-49%. I straight up claimed 49.1% at the current and temperature I have them operating at, not 35-49%.
> 
> 193W of electricity converted to 94.8W of radiation and 98.2W of heat. You can feel the radiation!! *It will light fires *if you put the light source too close to wood, as if you were holding a magnifying glass up to the sun (only there are no optics). You will end up with black spots in less than a minute, not from conduction, but radiant heat!
> 
> Another way to find efficiency is to measure the heat output by the heat sink using a calorimeter. If you know how much is wasted and how much went in, you can subtract to find power output. If the efficiency calculations were wrong, the heat sinks would dissipate a lot more heat per watt input. Instead, the more efficient cobs translate to less heat sink requirement per input watt, which you'd expect.


I'm liking everything I hear you say about them.


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## Michael Huntherz (Jul 28, 2015)

Sativied said:


> If that imaginary 35-49% translates to reality, 2015 will be the last year I grow on HPS...


I'm pretty sure by March of 2016 you'll at least be considering a COB lighting system. The tech is moving fast and the results of these CXA and CXB COBs are making the HID SOBs sob. We're already seeing seriously badass results with significantly less electrical consumption and heat than HID, with very long usable lifetimes and very low maintenance/repair costs. The price is going to drop, and continue to do so, and the technology will continue to improve. In another year this won't be something people even try to argue about any more. I'm not picking at you by saying this, I'm agreeing that you will want to move to COBs within the year. Then again, I could be completely wrong. Ceramic lighting might take over by then, hard to say. I know that HID has a sell-by-date, I just can't know what that is, accurately. The assertions I am making are mostly my instinct on the subject.


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## ttystikk (Jul 28, 2015)

Michael Huntherz said:


> I'm pretty sure by March of 2016 you'll at least be considering a COB lighting system. The tech is moving fast and the results of these CXA and CXB COBs are making the HID SOBs sob. We're already seeing seriously badass results with significantly less electrical consumption and heat than HID, with very long usable lifetimes and very low maintenance/repair costs. The price is going to drop, and continue to do so, and the technology will continue to improve. In another year this won't be something people even try to argue about any more. I'm not picking at you by saying this, I'm agreeing that you will want to move to COBs within the year. Then again, I could be completely wrong. Ceramic lighting might take over by then, hard to say. I know that HID has a sell-by-date, I just can't know what that is, accurately. The assertions I am making are mostly my instinct on the subject.


Don't toss the CDM and CMH babies out with the HPS bathwater; these are still HID tech, but offer significant improvements in efficiency and a dramatic improvement in usable PAR.

They may not be as efficient as COB LED, but using basic magnetic ballasts and lamps costing less than $100 they'll be cheaper for a long time yet.


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## Sativied (Jul 28, 2015)

Michael Huntherz said:


> I'm pretty sure by March of 2016 you'll at least be considering a COB lighting system. The tech is moving fast and the results of these CXA and CXB COBs are making the HID SOBs sob. We're already seeing seriously badass results with significantly less electrical consumption and heat than HID, with very long usable lifetimes and very low maintenance/repair costs. The price is going to drop, and continue to do so, and the technology will continue to improve. In another year this won't be something people even try to argue about any more. I'm not picking at you by saying this, I'm agreeing that you will want to move to COBs within the year. Then again, I could be completely wrong. Ceramic lighting might take over by then, hard to say. I know that HID has a sell-by-date, I just can't know what that is, accurately. The assertions I am making are mostly my instinct on the subject.


Yeah yeah, LED is the future... white cobs even... 

Apparently I (and forums not infested with LED shills, pretengineers and fucking asshats^^) have a different standard as to what "badass results" should entail... it's not something I associate with white cobs or CMH.

And FYI, CMH is a type of HID.

I suggest finding another tree to bark your LED nonsense up...


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 28, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Yeah yeah, LED is the future... white cobs even...
> 
> Apparently I (and forums not infested with LED shills, pretengineers and fucking asshats^^) have a different standard as to what "badass results" should entail... it's not something I associate with white cobs or CMH.
> 
> ...


hey sativied, ive been on ur side about led.. its always improving so what u pay for is an antique in a year, waste in my opinion..

anyways, i recently read a thing in high times about new lighting, and figured to try the ceramic discharge light, the 315 watt cdl agro, is that the cmh mentioned above? i ordered them and ill put up a journal once its all set up to compare against my 2 600 watt hps's. i guess we will see the outcome or ill go back to hps no looking back.. ive been using mh,hps for so long im scepticle of even trying anything else...
just wanted your opinion on the cdl agro if u have any info?


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## ttystikk (Jul 28, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> hey sativied, ive been on ur side about led.. its always improving so what u pay for is an antique in a year, waste in my opinion..
> 
> anyways, i recently read a thing in high times about new lighting, and figured to try the ceramic discharge light, the 315 watt cdl agro, is that the cmh mentioned above? i ordered them and ill put up a journal once its all set up to compare against my 2 600 watt hps's. i guess we will see the outcome or ill go back to hps no looking back.. ive been using mh,hps for so long im scepticle of even trying anything else...
> just wanted your opinion on the cdl agro if u have any info?


I think the CMH will treat you much like a metal halide, only fewer watts expended. You'll like it.


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## churchhaze (Jul 28, 2015)

Btw, I got 1.2g/w on my last grow.

290g in a 2x4 of c99.

All vero 18


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## churchhaze (Jul 28, 2015)

The person who made this thread said in another thread that he pulls significantly less than 1g/w consistantly with his flouro tubes. Please redirect your aggression toward none other than riddleme.

How much did those t5s cost anyway? Does it even cost less than my DIY setups?

Riddleme said it was for trichome production... but when led growers say they get better trichome production [than hps], suddenly it's a lie (I can't say either way).

So t5 producing frost justifies buying overpriced obsolete garbage?


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## Michael Huntherz (Jul 28, 2015)

Sativied said:


> Yeah yeah, LED is the future... white cobs even...
> 
> Apparently I (and forums not infested with LED shills, pretengineers and fucking asshats^^) have a different standard as to what "badass results" should entail... it's not something I associate with white cobs or CMH.
> 
> ...


I was just agreeing with you, you will want COBs before too long. Sorry for my specificity faux pax regarding CMH. Enjoy your air-conditioning bill.
I have no holy war to fight, I'm buying a 400W HPS next week. I'll be running 100% COBs by next July.


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## ttystikk (Jul 28, 2015)

I'm watching my plants respond better to 860W CDM lamps than HPS thouies placed next to them. I'm pretty convinced.


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## TheChemist77 (Jul 29, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I think the CMH will treat you much like a metal halide, only fewer watts expended. You'll like it.


have u used the cdl? i just ordered 2,, 315 watt cdl agro's from boulderlamp.com paid $500.00 per lamp and was told they will cover the same area as my 2 600 watt hps's covered a 4x6 ft table..said each bulb lasts 20,000 hours and the same bulb for veg and flower, less heat than led and the closest spectrum to the sun with better par than any other indoor bulb today..

lamps should be here soon..im scepticle but hopefull.. i can cut my electric bill in half going from 1,500 watts in my flower room(2 600 watt hps and 1 400 watt mh) and 1,200 watts in my veg room(3 400 watt mh) to 945 watts in flower(3,315watt cdls) and 715 watts in my veg room(1 315 watt cdl and 1 400 watt mh)...

if anyone has used the cdl's how did they compare to a hps in flower or a mh in veg? the diagram shows the cdl's red spectrum to have 51% usable light for mj wile only 27% of the red putt off by hps is usable light..

oh and how is the penitration on these lights? should i keep the light the same distance above the plants as my hps or if it isnt as hot should i keep it closer? i was figureing to keep it about 2ft above canopy as tests showed a 315 watt cdl at 2 ft had 686.05 par(umol/m2 total irradiance w/cm =16,501.9 uva/uvb 102.70(uva) and total luminance(lux)=37,388.1..visible spectrum was153.23 compared to the gavita pro hps de 1,150 watt par=798.68 at 2 ft,,,the cdl has the gavita beat watt per watt in all catagories.


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## ttystikk (Jul 29, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> have u used the cdl? i just ordered 2,, 315 watt cdl agro's from boulderlamp.com paid $500.00 per lamp and was told they will cover the same area as my 2 600 watt hps's covered a 4x6 ft table..said each bulb lasts 20,000 hours and the same bulb for veg and flower, less heat than led and the closest spectrum to the sun with better par than any other indoor bulb today..
> 
> lamps should be here soon..im scepticle but hopefull.. i can cut my electric bill in half going from 1,500 watts in my flower room(2 600 watt hps and 1 400 watt mh) and 1,200 watts in my veg room(3 400 watt mh) to 945 watts in flower(3,315watt cdls) and 715 watts in my veg room(1 315 watt cdl and 1 400 watt mh)...
> 
> ...


CDL= commercial drivers license or ceramic discharge lighting? I'm not a trucker, but I do use 860W CDM lamps in my grow. They're a larger version of the same tech in the 315W LEC. I'm very happy with their performance thus far.


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## Dr. Who (Jul 31, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> CDL= commercial drivers license or ceramic discharge lighting? I'm not a trucker, but I do use 860W CDM lamps in my grow. They're a larger version of the same tech in the 315W LEC. I'm very happy with their performance thus far.


Hey ttystikk......whats the foot print of that 860? I'm curious about if the spectral increase works for better effective penetration. 
Are you seeing a difference on that too? Is the heat output about the same as ? 1K, 600?

I'm looking at these and wonder.....Where did you get the 860s from?

Doc


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 1, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> Hey ttystikk......whats the foot print of that 860? I'm curious about if the spectral increase works for better effective penetration.
> Are you seeing a difference on that too? Is the heat output about the same as ? 1K, 600?
> 
> I'm looking at these and wonder.....Where did you get the 860s from?
> ...


hey doc, id like to hear about ty's 860 also..i dont have the 315 watt up yet but plugged it in to test for a few hours.. i can say the heat off the bulb is way less than hps or mh, i can easily put it 8-10 inches above plant without burning, the open hood can probably be put as close to plants as a cfl,,but to get better coverage im going to keep it 1-2 ft above to get a 3x4 coverage area.. the ballast located above the hood is also alot cooler than a 1k hps ballast.. id say its warm to the touch but not hot and i really like the color of the light, not orange like an hps, and more white than an mh, itll be nice for taking pix..

id also like to know more about the 860 ty has,coverage,penetration, etc...


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## a senile fungus (Aug 1, 2015)

We need a place to consolidate all the CMH talk...

I've been jumping back and forth over a few threads regarding this tech.

I know @borbor has one. And @GroErr and @ttystikk and others that I can't think of...

I used my 2x CMH in flower and they did great. I've since been using them in my veg area, still doing great. Barely any heat produced, I'm cooling two of them with a 8inch booster fan, that should tell you how hot they run, lol.

I'm contemplating putting 2x 315w CMH in a 4x4 and doing SOG


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## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> Hey ttystikk......whats the foot print of that 860? I'm curious about if the spectral increase works for better effective penetration.
> Are you seeing a difference on that too? Is the heat output about the same as ? 1K, 600?
> 
> I'm looking at these and wonder.....Where did you get the 860s from?
> ...


I limit my canopy depth to a foot or less, because I want top quality bud and as little else as possible.

The spectrum improvement helps the plants in many ways, some obvious, some more subtle.

My 860W emits about as much radiant heat as a 600W HPS. It takes a solid half hour to cool enough to restrike, however, probably owing to the multiple layers of materials in the lamp.

I'm running between 25-30W/ft² and I'm pleased with their performance when compared to similar wattage of HPS.

They are open rated, meaning no fixture is required. So run them bare! They must be operated vertically, base up or down. So run 'em vertically! They must be operated on a thousand watt magnetic ballast that runs metal halide. Soooo... pony up the sixty bucks, lol

I got them and some magnetic ballasts at www.growershouse.com



TheChemist77 said:


> hey doc, id like to hear about ty's 860 also..i dont have the 315 watt up yet but plugged it in to test for a few hours.. i can say the heat off the bulb is way less than hps or mh, i can easily put it 8-10 inches above plant without burning, the open hood can probably be put as close to plants as a cfl,,but to get better coverage im going to keep it 1-2 ft above to get a 3x4 coverage area.. the ballast located above the hood is also alot cooler than a 1k hps ballast.. id say its warm to the touch but not hot and i really like the color of the light, not orange like an hps, and more white than an mh, itll be nice for taking pix..
> 
> id also like to know more about the 860 ty has,coverage,penetration, etc...


CRI of the 860W CDM bulb is 93. It's natural light.

I just got some 315W LEC lights. The main difference for the grower is the smaller lamps run on a low frequency square wave electronic ballast, which substantially improves the actual umol/W output of the lamp. This is how the smaller ones gain their efficiency advantage over mine.

Mine aren't bad, though;


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 1, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I limit my canopy depth to a foot or less, because I want top quality bud and as little else as possible.
> 
> The spectrum improvement helps the plants in many ways, some obvious, some more subtle.
> 
> ...




wow,, those are some tall plants!! i try to keep my plants at 3-4ft tall max so that even the lower buds get good light.. lookin good!!!


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 1, 2015)

over a 5x6 area, i have 2 315 watt cmh over a 4x6 table then 5 5gal buckets on the side, should i use 3 cmh or 2 cmh and add 1 400 watt hps for adding some red to the spectrum?


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## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> over a 5x6 area, i have 2 315 watt cmh over a 4x6 table then 5 5gal buckets on the side, should i use 3 cmh or 2 cmh and add 1 400 watt hps for adding some red to the spectrum?


At 5x6=30 ft², you're looking at two HPS thouies for decent coverage. I just don't see how you'll do that space justice with less than four 315W fixtures. They're good lights, but they won't work miracles.

I have run HPS thouies on digital ballasts alongside my 860W CDM lights and the plants really seem to prefer the CDM light. Yes, the extra blue does trigger phototropism, but the plants nearest the HPS also seem to be less healthy and robust in general and are the first to exhibit signs of stress from any source.

In short: if the lamp works because it has great spectrum, why would you try to 'fix' it with a lamp with terrible spectrum characteristics? The plant's response seems pretty logical to me when viewed from this perspective!


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## Dr. Who (Aug 1, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> We need a place to consolidate all the CMH talk...
> 
> I've been jumping back and forth over a few threads regarding this tech.
> 
> ...





TheChemist77 said:


> over a 5x6 area, i have 2 315 watt cmh over a 4x6 table then 5 5gal buckets on the side, should i use 3 cmh or 2 cmh and add 1 400 watt hps for adding some red to the spectrum?


So this kinda gives me the idea of footprint (sounds like a technical call to Boulder Lamps is in order) and they would most likely answer this too,,,but I'm impatient.....

What did the 315w cost? This really figures, as I just put Jupiter 6 hoods (I think I got almost the last ones avail. as the guy sure gave me grief for getting all 8 I got) and 1K's in my new test and breed personal grow building......Fucking almost a year and I still have to get the HAVAC work done.....everything else is......The little temp AC's are struggling and I need that HD central unit in! By the time they get to it, I'll be needing the furnace - lol (not funny though really)...

Doc

Well you gave invites to the others so maybe this will become a CMH playground Fungi ....


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## ttystikk (Aug 2, 2015)

@TheChemist77 When you call Boulder lighting, ask them what the PPFD output of their lamps is at the recommended height.

One way for companies to brag about yield is to deliberately under light the space. This gives great yield per watt numbers, but yield per square foot suffers, as does quality and maturity.

You may even go so far as to consider six of them for that space. More light means more weed, as long as you can maintain environmental control.


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 2, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> So this kinda gives me the idea of footprint (sounds like a technical call to Boulder Lamps is in order) and they would most likely answer this too,,,but I'm impatient.....
> 
> What did the 315w cost? This really figures, as I just put Jupiter 6 hoods (I think I got almost the last ones avail. as the guy sure gave me grief for getting all 8 I got) and 1K's in my new test and breed personal grow building......Fucking almost a year and I still have to get the HAVAC work done.....everything else is......The little temp AC's are struggling and I need that HD central unit in! By the time they get to it, I'll be needing the furnace - lol (not funny though really)...
> 
> ...


i paid $500.00 per lamp, which isnt bad considering the bulb alone is $100.00 and lasts 20,000 hours without a change.. 1 315 cdl agro comes with ballast,bulb,hood,daisy chain cord for hanging multiple lamps,120 or 220 6ft cord and hangers..i ordered 2 but plan to buy more if they work as promised..boulder will say each lamp can cover a 2.8ft x 3.4ft area at 1 ft above canopy, however the study i read sais bulbs 2ft above canopy still beats the par value of a 1k hps de watt per watt also at 2ft above.. so ill place mine 2 ft above to get a larger coverage, 3x4.. the guy at boulder said at 2ft above it should replace a 600 watt hps/mh and with better production, and growth hands down wether veg or bloom..


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 2, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> @TheChemist77 When you call Boulder lighting, ask them what the PPFD output of their lamps is at the recommended height.
> 
> One way for companies to brag about yield is to deliberately under light the space. This gives great yield per watt numbers, but yield per square foot suffers, as does quality and maturity.
> 
> You may even go so far as to consider six of them for that space. More light means more weed, as long as you can maintain environmental control.


im calling tomorrow, monday as they arnt in today..ill give u the answer to ppfd as soon as i find out..

also if any of u decide to purchase a lamp from boulder, if u tell them the chemist77 refered u, you can get a small discount...


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## ttystikk (Aug 2, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> i paid $500.00 per lamp, which isnt bad considering the bulb alone is $100.00 and lasts 20,000 hours without a change.. 1 315 cdl agro comes with ballast,bulb,hood,daisy chain cord for hanging multiple lamps,120 or 220 6ft cord and hangers..i ordered 2 but plan to buy more if they work as promised..boulder will say each lamp can cover a 2.8ft x 3.4ft area at 1 ft above canopy, however the study i read sais bulbs 2ft above canopy still beats the par value of a 1k hps de watt per watt also at 2ft above.. so ill place mine 2 ft above to get a larger coverage, 3x4.. the guy at boulder said at 2ft above it should replace a 600 watt hps/mh and with better production, and growth hands down wether veg or bloom..


Sounds great, but vague. Ask for hard numbers, specifications.

By the way, the tech is from Philips- and I got lamp and ballast only kits for under $200 each, at advancedtechlighting.com. I do have to build my own fixture and wire up my own cords, however.


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 2, 2015)

on the paper it says

luminous efficacy=105 lumen/watt
photosynthetic photon flux,ppf,-1.95
lumen maintenance=90%
color rendering index=92 Ra8
color temp=3,100 kelvin
operating position=universal
power conversion efficiency=93%

not sure if that helps


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## Dr. Who (Aug 3, 2015)

What about power draw? VS a 1K?
Amps?


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## ttystikk (Aug 3, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> What about power draw? VS a 1K?
> Amps?


I dunno. They call it an 860W CDM lamp... maybe 860W? Vs a thousand (or more on boost) for an HPS?


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 3, 2015)

electronic ballast for 315 cdl agro
voltage=105/140 vac, 50/60 hz
waveform=150hz +5hz square wave
current crest factor=1.3
nominal input power=340w+5w
power factor>0.95

just called, they will be calling me back soon, ill ask the ppfd for u ty..not sure if the above answers doc's question..


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## Merlin34 (Aug 3, 2015)

Maybe this helps?

Sent from my HTC6525LVW using Rollitup mobile app


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## Dr. Who (Aug 3, 2015)

WOW 1.8 amps !!! a 1K draws 9 !!!
Chem's is 1.3!!! Now I'm paying attention even more...I just might have to spring for a cpl and try them out!


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## Merlin34 (Aug 3, 2015)

A couple? Like this?

Colorado


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## ttystikk (Aug 3, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> WOW 1.8 amps !!! a 1K draws 9 !!!
> Chem's is 1.3!!! Now I'm paying attention even more...I just might have to spring for a cpl and try them out!


Careful. Make sure you're comparing all your amps at the same voltage: @240, your HPS thouie is only pulling 4.2-4.8A, depending on ballast.


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## Dr. Who (Aug 4, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> Careful. Make sure you're comparing all your amps at the same voltage: @240, your HPS thouie is only pulling 4.2-4.8A, depending on ballast.


True, quite true.
Sadly I ran 110.....Box space vs needed outlets..


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 4, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> @TheChemist77 When you call Boulder lighting, ask them what the PPFD output of their lamps is at the recommended height.
> 
> One way for companies to brag about yield is to deliberately under light the space. This gives great yield per watt numbers, but yield per square foot suffers, as does quality and maturity.
> 
> You may even go so far as to consider six of them for that space. More light means more weed, as long as you can maintain environmental control.


ty, just talked to boulder, ppfd of the 315watt agro cdl at 2 ft from bulb is 700..
what is ppfd and is 700 good?


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 4, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> True, quite true.
> Sadly I ran 110.....Box space vs needed outlets..


doc, if u decide to try the cdl from boulder, please remember to say the chemist77 refered you.. you will get a small discount, not sure how much but even a small discount is a discount wright?


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## ttystikk (Aug 4, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> ty, just talked to boulder, ppfd of the 315watt agro cdl at 2 ft from bulb is 700..
> what is ppfd and is 700 good?


PPfD is a more specific version of PAR, not quite sure of the definition. 700 is definitely good, and tells me that you'll want lots of those lights because you don't want any less than that on your canopy.


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## a senile fungus (Aug 4, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> PPfD is a more specific version of PAR, not quite sure of the definition. 700 is definitely good, and tells me that you'll want lots of those lights because you don't want any less than that on your canopy.



If I recall correctly, it stands for photosynthetic photon flux density.

So how many photons in the PAR range are traveling through a given amount of space, per second.

Any and all, I know that's laymans terms, feel free to expand on that or correct it...


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## RM3 (Aug 4, 2015)

Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (*PPFD*) is defined as the photon flux density of PAR, also referred to as Quantum Flux Density. This is the number of photons in the 400-700 nm waveband incident per unit time on a unit surface.


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 4, 2015)

anybody know the ppfd on a gavita pro 1k de at 2ft from bulb??


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## ttystikk (Aug 4, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Photosynthetic Photon Flux Density (*PPFD*) is defined as the photon flux density of PAR, also referred to as Quantum Flux Density. This is the number of photons in the 400-700 nm waveband incident per unit time on a unit surface.


Thank you!


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## a senile fungus (Aug 4, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> anybody know the ppfd on a gavita pro 1k de at 2ft from bulb??



I've heard, and was told when I purchased them, to have 1mm of distance from bottom of reflector per 1watt of power for the gavita de.

So mine at 750w should have around 750mm of distance from canopy.

2ft distance from the 1000w de is realllllly pushing it, IMO. The leaves may not even be able to handle that amount/intensity of heat/light...


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## ttystikk (Aug 4, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> anybody know the ppfd on a gavita pro 1k de at 2ft from bulb??


You might be surprised how low the number is, especially once you factor in how many watts it took to achieve it.

I'm pretty much ready to shitcan the remainder of my HPS flowering lights.


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 4, 2015)

ok, how bout the ppfd of a 600 watt hps or mh with say a plantmax bulb? i only ask cause up till now thats what ive been using. had 2 600 watt hps and 1 400 watt mh over my flower area.. iv done well in terms of yield, but finding a good producing strain with an equally good high has been a problem..ive run over 20 strains in the last year and i really want to settle on 1 or 2 rather than keeping so many dif moms all the time.. as of now my best 3 have to be dynamite and island sweet skunk by next gen and 2 bubblegums by th, but i still have 2 dif skunk#1's a sensi and a seedsman original. 3 different nl strains,2 different criticle mass, lemon kush, og kush, and shit moms.. i think im getting rid of the shit,lemon kush,og kush, and 1 of the bubblegum moms..but still need to cull more to get to the 2 or 3 best..

my room will be finished soon, took down the hps/mh put up 2 cdl's but plan to put up 3, pulled out 4x6 dwc/undercurrent table and put in a 4x6ft flood n drain table..still have a bit more to do before i can start new journal with cdl's but i have plants under the cdl's that are 1 week in, already i see a huge difference as plants are not stretching like they did under hps/mh lights..oh and the color of the leaves under the cdl's is really cool, they almost look like different plants as under the hps/mh they look green but under cdl's the leaves almost look purple as they are a very deep green color.. but i know its just the spectrum going from a majority of an orange room to a very white light room.
anyways please let me know the ppfd of a 600 watt hps 2 ft from bulb so i can know the difference..

also any recomendations on a strain that yields are high as well as potency, and finishes in 8 weeks or less, indica dom is preferred with a 1 week veg from rooted clone to end up around 3ft tall after stretch.. i have over 100 different strains so i cant list them all but hope 1 of them are a winner.. have blue dream, blue power, blue mystic,blue dynamite, 2 different blueberrys bcbd and spliff, 5 different bubblegums th,serious,female,nirvana and white lable. i have lots of land races and just about every stabilized hybrid or true breeding strain available from seed co's. anyways give me a few different choices and hopefully ill have 1.. my wife wants me to try papaya,sage n sour, ultra sour or berry bomb and she loves the th bubblegum and the island sweet skunks hubba bubba smell.

sorry bout the off subject ramblings,lots on my mind wright now..


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## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

TheChemist77 said:


> ok, how bout the ppfd of a 600 watt hps or mh with say a plantmax bulb? i only ask cause up till now thats what ive been using. had 2 600 watt hps and 1 400 watt mh over my flower area.. iv done well in terms of yield, but finding a good producing strain with an equally good high has been a problem..ive run over 20 strains in the last year and i really want to settle on 1 or 2 rather than keeping so many dif moms all the time.. as of now my best 3 have to be dynamite and island sweet skunk by next gen and 2 bubblegums by th, but i still have 2 dif skunk#1's a sensi and a seedsman original. 3 different nl strains,2 different criticle mass, lemon kush, og kush, and shit moms.. i think im getting rid of the shit,lemon kush,og kush, and 1 of the bubblegum moms..but still need to cull more to get to the 2 or 3 best..
> 
> my room will be finished soon, took down the hps/mh put up 2 cdl's but plan to put up 3, pulled out 4x6 dwc/undercurrent table and put in a 4x6ft flood n drain table..still have a bit more to do before i can start new journal with cdl's but i have plants under the cdl's that are 1 week in, already i see a huge difference as plants are not stretching like they did under hps/mh lights..oh and the color of the leaves under the cdl's is really cool, they almost look like different plants as under the hps/mh they look green but under cdl's the leaves almost look purple as they are a very deep green color.. but i know its just the spectrum going from a majority of an orange room to a very white light room.
> anyways please let me know the ppfd of a 600 watt hps 2 ft from bulb so i can know the difference..
> ...


Hey no prob....Watch the Berry Bomb if you grow it.....Root temp sensitive.....More so in hydro!

I would like to suggest you try BLACK RUSSIAN from Delicious Seeds......Good yields, easy grower and packs a real good punch! (One patient calls it "stupid gas" and that's a good nick name for it!)

You might take a look at the Iranian strain family of plants at Dr Geenthumb!! Chem x Iranian and x Diesel and x OG and xG13 I've run.....They all are good with Iranian X OG having some abso - fucking - lutely FLY phenos !!
Don't be put off if any of them are sold out.....During the fall and winter, everything he offers comes back on line....BTW, his prices drop during the winter too.....(he has big springtime volume and sell out strains every year then)...

Doc


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## TheChemist77 (Aug 5, 2015)

ok lots of my seeds u can look through at
https://www.rollitup.org/t/original-breeders-packaging.878262/page-6


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## [email protected] (Oct 4, 2015)

Uncle Ben said:


> When's the last time you gave dem puppies a bath?
> 
> Seriously though, I find sativas have little aroma compared to skunk. My zamal was almost odorless. I really had to put my nose to it to pick up on anything. Had a faint smell of cinnamon.
> 
> Also, ever heard of "terroir"? Given that zamal I would speculate that it would have a completely different sensory profile if grown outdoors in a sandy loam versus indoors in potting soil under artificial light.



I believ the reaso they don't smell is because you have no daily terpenes when you test them. Most evaporate above 75F and almost all above 90f which is about what your canopy temp is at. I've tested and proved this by running many different canopy temps and it's what determines smell. 

You can actually run higher temps for greatest strength and yield and the just lower canopy to a max of 75 for the last week and all your terpenes will be there for harvest


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## cannawizard (Oct 5, 2015)

[email protected] said:


> I believ the reaso they don't smell is because you have no daily terpenes when you test them. Most evaporate above 75F and almost all above 90f which is about what your canopy temp is at. I've tested and proved this by running many different canopy temps and it's what determines smell.
> 
> You can actually run higher temps for greatest strength and yield and the just lower canopy to a max of 75 for the last week and all your terpenes will be there for harvest


Or.
they didn't smell because of the specific terpene profile that particular strain had, some strains just have little terpene ratios because of genetics hence the little to no "smell"... "no daily terpenes?"-- even if the prior exuded terps evaporated due to "high temps", new terps are exuded 24/7 to replace those lost due to the plant's "transpiration" mechanism  ----"almost all above 90f" , really? then how do outdoor grows with canopy temps exceeding 90f get harvested and tested with the same (or higher) amounts of terpenes in-regards to air-conditioned indoor grows?? hhhmm, weird ~

http://www.fundacion-canna.es/en/terpenes
http://skunkpharmresearch.com/cannabinoid-info/

#cheers


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## Helpafellowtoker (Oct 12, 2015)

Hey cannawizard how can i reach you? 


cannawizard said:


> Or.
> they didn't smell because of the specific terpene profile that particular strain had, some strains just have little terpene ratios because of genetics hence the little to no "smell"... "no daily terpenes?"-- even if the prior exuded terps evaporated due to "high temps", new terps are exuded 24/7 to replace those lost due to the plant's "transpiration" mechanism  ----"almost all above 90f" , really? then how do outdoor grows with canopy temps exceeding 90f get harvested and tested with the same (or higher) amounts of terpenes in-regards to air-conditioned indoor grows?? hhhmm, weird ~
> 
> http://www.fundacion-canna.es/en/terpenes
> ...


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 12, 2015)

cannawizard said:


> Or.
> they didn't smell because of the specific terpene profile that particular strain had, some strains just have little terpene ratios because of genetics hence the little to no "smell"... "no daily terpenes?"-- even if the prior exuded terps evaporated due to "high temps", new terps are exuded 24/7 to replace those lost due to the plant's "transpiration" mechanism  ----"almost all above 90f" , really? then how do outdoor grows with canopy temps exceeding 90f get harvested and tested with the same (or higher) amounts of terpenes in-regards to air-conditioned indoor grows?? hhhmm, weird ~
> 
> http://www.fundacion-canna.es/en/terpenes
> ...


well acording to rm3 and his site GOOD cannabis dosnt have a smell at all, unless you touch or make them throw off scents.


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## elkamino (Nov 1, 2015)

@RM3 -

Can you point me to where you discuss T5 bulb selection? Thanks!


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## RM3 (Nov 2, 2015)

elkamino said:


> @RM3 -
> 
> Can you point me to where you discuss T5 bulb selection? Thanks!


I don't know that I have that much lol ,,, but it would be here,,,

https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-leprechauns-pot-o-gold.855314/


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## cannawizard (Nov 4, 2015)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> well acording to rm3 and his site GOOD cannabis dosnt have a smell at all, unless you touch or make them throw off scents.


I' am just simply providing another angle concerning what was stated, I also subscribe to what RM3 has stated on his personal site, would love to get a copy of his book to add to my cannabis library-- since most info online is really anecdotal based, all we can do is experiment/test things out for ourselves-- and go on sites like these and share our results.. Until cannabis is in full legal standing, being examined-probed-lab'd-peer reviewed by actual academics/scientist/botanist/Phds-etc etc day in and day out "in-regards to all grow data concerning this plant".. All we got to go on is the opinions, personal anecdotal info, experiments done by hard working & dedicated cannabis growers.. hope that garbled nonsense made sense hahaha


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## DesertGrow89 (Nov 4, 2015)

How soon will this book of RM3 s be available? Do want.


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## RM3 (Nov 4, 2015)

DesertGrow89 said:


> How soon will this book of RM3 s be available? Do want.


gonna be awhile


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2016)

RM3 said:


> http://thegardeningcook.com/baking-soda-in-the-garden/
> 
> didn't say I was gonna do it lol


"Hi! I am Carol and I love to garden and cook (with a bit of DIY thrown in for fun.) I come from a long line of gardeners and have always love to experiment with food and recipes. Join me as I cook and garden my way through life."

Hi Carol, I'm Uncle Ben! cya in my bed of roses sweetie pie?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Throw theory out the window.


I did, after reading and exploring spectrums, lamps, PAR to death. So a challenge to all - has any one ever grown cannabis from start to finish with a regular HPS?

I have...... My avatar is one such example of "extreme success". 

Glad my plants can't read.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 5, 2016)

Damn, just saw the dates, sorry for resurrecting an OLD thread. Got this "like" showing up in my ALERTS and just noticed it went back to a post I made months ago. Sheesh!


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## RM3 (Feb 5, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Damn, just saw the dates, sorry for resurrecting an OLD thread. Got this "like" showing up in my ALERTS and just noticed it went back to a post I made months ago. Sheesh!


Yeah I was re-reading it and saw I missed a like or 2 for ya,,,,,, my bad


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## churchhaze (Feb 5, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> has any one ever grown cannabis from start to finish with a regular HPS?


Yes, of course. Cannabis vegs great under HPS. The only reason I'd prefer tubes over HPS is the lower profile. It's all moot point now because my veg area was converted to vero 18 about a year ago.


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## ttystikk (Feb 5, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Yes, of course. Cannabis vegs great under HPS. The only reason I'd prefer tubes over HPS is the lower profile. It's all moot point now because my veg area was converted to vero 18 about a year ago.


Just put some of mine under CXB3590 and... ..yeah. Let's just say that it's incentive to get the rest of them up over my bloom room!


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 6, 2016)

i am very happy with the ceramic lamps,, 945 watts or 3 315 watt cmh hit over 1200 grams dry yield.. so 3 315's compete well with 2 600 watt hps, better resin production and plants finish 1 week sooner under the 3100k spectrum..never got over 1.3 gpw with hps, with cmh imgetting it almost every run...


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## ttystikk (Feb 6, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> i am very happy with the ceramic lamps,, 945 watts or 3 315 watt cmh hit over 1200 grams dry yield.. so 3 315's compete well with 2 600 watt hps, better resin production and plants finish 1 week sooner under the 3100k spectrum..never got over 1.3 gpw with hps, with cmh imgetting it almost every run...


I have a dozen of these kits. They won't fit in my racks, watts are too low. Then I had a inspiration yesterday; I'll use them for veg!


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I have a dozen of these kits. They won't fit in my racks, watts are too low. Then I had a inspiration yesterday; I'll use them for veg!


i havnt used them for veg yet,, but im going to do some testing of the 3100k and 4200k cmh bulbs for my veg room...i can not say how happy i am to not have to replace bulbs every 6 months,,, this is just great.. i really,,really need to invest in a few cob's.. how long does a new cob last?? i like a few different 200 and 300 watt cob's its hard to decide but im sure ill get my money back after a run or 2... you know me,, ill be doing testing,,,i think my plants are asking me to pick a light source,, they must be getting confused going back n forth from mh and hps for so many years,then to cmh to hps then back again..


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## ttystikk (Feb 6, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> i havnt used them for veg yet,, but im going to do some testing of the 3100k and 4200k cmh bulbs for my veg room...i can not say how happy i am to not have to replace bulbs every 6 months,,, this is just great.. i really,,really need to invest in a few cob's.. how long does a new cob last?? i like a few different 200 and 300 watt cob's its hard to decide but im sure ill get my money back after a run or 2... you know me,, ill be doing testing,,,i think my plants are asking me to pick a light source,, they must be getting confused going back n forth from mh and hps for so many years,then to cmh to hps then back again..


Depends on how the COB is mounted, how hard its driven and how warm it gets. Solid mounting stays cooler, driving it softer and keeping it cooler will also help longevity. Cree says they're good for 50,000 hours, I believe running them soft and cool will see them last many times that long. 

TL;DR? FUCKING FOREVER! LOL


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 8, 2016)

thanks ty,,, good to know people who know there shit!!! grow well and be well


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## ttystikk (Feb 8, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> thanks ty,,, good to know people who know there shit!!! grow well and be well


That's for Cree chips; apparently there's a lot of crappy knockoffs and so on out there, so buyer beware. Also, even other reputable manufacturers are using different technologies and so their expected lifetimes would also be different. Best to check.


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## TheChemist77 (Feb 11, 2016)

i will research a few different ones and let you know on the decision before i buy


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## Skunk Baxter (Mar 20, 2016)

TheChemist77 said:


> i am very happy with the ceramic lamps,, 945 watts or 3 315 watt cmh hit over 1200 grams dry yield.. so 3 315's compete well with 2 600 watt hps, better resin production and plants finish 1 week sooner under the 3100k spectrum..never got over 1.3 gpw with hps, with cmh imgetting it almost every run...


This is a move I'm going to be making myself sometime this year, and I'm really interested to see someone who recently made the switch. Mind if I pick your brain a bit?

I'd be looking at replacing 1K HPS lights with 315 CMH bulbs, 3 CMH for each 1K. I was wondering about 3 things - temperatures, energy cost, and configuration, and I'd much rather ask you than the guy at the grow shop. Nobody at my shop has actually used CMH except as demos in the store, and I'd rather hear it from someone who grows for a living than someone who sells for a living.

How is the heat output of 3 315s compared to a 1K HPS? I know you compared them to 2 600Ws, but I'm guessing you're familiar with 1Ks as well.

Also, how do they compare in electrical usage?

And lastly, I'm concerned about configuring 3 lights into a space that I designed to hold a single 1K fixture. How heavy and bulky would they be? Do you have to configure any kind of elaborate duct systems to vent all 3 of them? Do they throw enough heat that you have to air-cool the hoods?

Oh, and one more - how does the light penetration compare to a 1K or twin 600s?

Thanks in advance to anyone who can chime in on any of these questions.


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## TheChemist77 (Mar 21, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> This is a move I'm going to be making myself sometime this year, and I'm really interested to see someone who recently made the switch. Mind if I pick your brain a bit?
> 
> I'd be looking at replacing 1K HPS lights with 315 CMH bulbs, 3 CMH for each 1K. I was wondering about 3 things - temperatures, energy cost, and configuration, and I'd much rather ask you than the guy at the grow shop. Nobody at my shop has actually used CMH except as demos in the store, and I'd rather hear it from someone who grows for a living than someone who sells for a living.
> 
> ...


penetration is good to a 4ft depth at 2ft above canopy and even lower branches will have good size buds,,no more popcorn.. i ran 3 315's in line above the center of a 4x6 table, but placement is really up to you.. my hoods are not air coolable, open hoods, but heat is much less than a single 1k hps..wen i ran the 1k i had a 6inch aircoolable hood venting heat out, then ran 3 315's open hoods, no venting exept my normal intake and exaughst for the room set on a thermostat and the exaughst only kicked on once or twice during lights on,,,i took exaughst off thermostat and put it on a timer now so it exaughsts the room every 3 hours or 4 times during lights on for 5 minutes.. my intake and exaughst are a 400cfm in and a 450cfm exaughst 4inch inline fans and my room is 12ftx11ftx7ft high so about 1,000square feet, my in and ex, fill room and replace air in 5 minutes or less... each 315 produces the heat of maybe a 150watt hps,,so 3 315's put out heat equivilant to say 1 400 or 600 watt hps...pluss replacing a 1k with 3 315's is saving you 55watts of electricity and better gram per watts than hps any day....hope this helps,,grow and be well


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## ttystikk (Mar 21, 2016)

Frankly, the only really important part is grams per watt. 

Everything else boils down to that. 

If it yields better, it's worth it!


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## Skunk Baxter (Mar 22, 2016)

Oh, definitely. The only reason I care about the electrical usage and the heat are to keep the power usage within a reasonable and unremarkable range. Lower usage for the lights is one thing, of course, but reduced heat adds up to less electricity needed for cooling. In the summertime, in a hot climate, when you have several thousand watts of HID lights in one room, plus the air conditioner needed to neutralize that heat, the bill really gets up there. I like every single aspect of the house to look completely normal and inconspicuous to any outside observer, so cutting energy costs whenever and wherever I can is useful - and one more factor in pushing me in that direction.

Only thing I'm wondering, though, is what sort of CMH technology is coming down the pike. Because of certain physical limitations on one of my grow areas, it's a hell of a lot easier to hang one light than three smaller ones. I can't get into detail, but the dimensions of the walls relative to the ceiling are atypical. Short of knocking down walls, there's not much I can do to get around that. It's not quite a dealbreaker, but really very close to being one.

It'd be nice to know if the next generation of CMHs will include a direct replacement for the current 1K HPS, in a single unit of 900 watts or so, rather than having to use 3 fixtures. I haven't really been able to find out any reliable information about that. If that's something that were coming soon, I'd be more tempted to wait until later in the year, but if it's not on the horizon I may very well convert one of the spaces to a 3-CMH configuration right now, and just do what I have to do to figured out a way to squeeze them in and hang them. .


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## ttystikk (Mar 22, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> Oh, definitely. The only reason I care about the electrical usage and the heat are to keep the power usage within a reasonable and unremarkable range. Lower usage for the lights is one thing, of course, but reduced heat adds up to less electricity needed for cooling. In the summertime, in a hot climate, when you have several thousand watts of HID lights in one room, plus the air conditioner needed to neutralize that heat, the bill really gets up there. I like every single aspect of the house to look completely normal and inconspicuous to any outside observer, so cutting energy costs whenever and wherever I can is useful - and one more factor in pushing me in that direction.
> 
> Only thing I'm wondering, though, is what sort of CMH technology is coming down the pike. Because of certain physical limitations on one of my grow areas, it's a hell of a lot easier to hang one light than three smaller ones. I can't get into detail, but the dimensions of the walls relative to the ceiling are atypical. Short of knocking down walls, there's not much I can do to get around that. It's not quite a dealbreaker, but really very close to being one.
> 
> It'd be nice to know if the next generation of CMHs will include a direct replacement for the current 1K HPS, in a single unit of 900 watts or so, rather than having to use 3 fixtures. I haven't really been able to find out any reliable information about that. If that's something that were coming soon, I'd be more tempted to wait until later in the year, but if it's not on the horizon I may very well convert one of the spaces to a 3-CMH configuration right now, and just do what I have to do to figured out a way to squeeze them in and hang them. .


This is prescient. I've been running a larger lamp for years, the 860W CDM Allstart. On a magnetic ballast, its efficiency is relatively poor. However, there are several low frequency digital square wave ballasts now on the market that may drive this lamp at the same efficiency as the smaller lamp on its LFSW ballast- only at 1000W. 

This would seem to be an ideal solution for your problem but there is one caveat, the lamp must be operated in a vertical orientation, base up or down.


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## Skunk Baxter (Mar 22, 2016)

Thank you - yeah, I've seen that one, and have really been tempted, but how do you orient the vertical bulb to cast a uniform footprint on a horizontal canopy? Is it only suited for vertical growing, or is there some special reflector? Did you design your own reflector? That is the Philips bulb, is it not?

And thanks for the response, by the way...


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## ttystikk (Mar 22, 2016)

Skunk Baxter said:


> Thank you - yeah, I've seen that one, and have really been tempted, but how do you orient the vertical bulb to cast a uniform footprint on a horizontal canopy? Is it only suited for vertical growing, or is there some special reflector? Did you design your own reflector? That is the Philips bulb, is it not?
> 
> And thanks for the response, by the way...


There are reflectors that will reflect a vertically oriented lamp's output onto a flat canopy. Some are even air cooled.

I run them bare, vertically.

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmea860.htm

The site says that electronic ballasts that run below 174Hz don't exist, this is no longer true.


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## Skunk Baxter (Mar 22, 2016)

I really appreciate your taking the time to share this with me, because I haven't been able to find anyone in real life with firsthand experience, and the information I've found on the web is sparse and often contradictory. I've read enough of your posts to know what you're about, and have a lot of respect for your bona fides. This is very valuable information for me, and I really appreciate it.


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## ScottyBlaze1 (Mar 23, 2016)

Hello everyone, im so glad i found this thread! Im really interested in these lec's and i have a few questions i hope you guys can answer. So here we go, the space has a 8x16 canopy which will be double scrogged with 7 ft ceilings with co2 using promix. Now my qustions are should i go with the 630's one light per 4x4, or should i go with the 315's? With 315's how many lights would i need? Lastly would you guys recommend 1 big plant per 4x4 or 2-3 smaller ones?


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## ttystikk (Mar 23, 2016)

ScottyBlaze1 said:


> Hello everyone, im so glad i found this thread! Im really interested in these lec's and i have a few questions i hope you guys can answer. So here we go, the space has a 8x16 canopy which will be double scrogged with 7 ft ceilings with co2 using promix. Now my qustions are should i go with the 630's one light per 4x4, or should i go with the 315's? With 315's how many lights would i need? Lastly would you guys recommend 1 big plant per 4x4 or 2-3 smaller ones?


I think the double fixture defeats one big advantage of the 315W, which is being able to spread the lights out to cover the space. 

Do at least 3 if not 4 plants per 4x4. Don't expect as much stretch as you might with HPS.

Best of luck, tag me into your thread when you get this going!


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## MeDiHeRbMaN12 (Mar 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> This morning, I read this thread ,,,,
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/
> 
> ...


I just started my own T5 GROW I can only hope I grow something as good as you


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Another noob suckered into flowering with T5s.


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## RM3 (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Another noob suckered into flowering with T5s.


Funny you think that, every one I know that flowers with T5's has better bud 

It's kinda why we do it


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Funny you think that, every one I know that flowers with T5's has better bud
> 
> It's kinda why we do it


Believe what you want to believe for your own grows, but what you're doing is misleading noobs.


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

MeDiHeRbMaN12 said:


> I just started my own T5 GROW I can only hope I grow something as good as you


Make sure to flush out the roots with boiling water when you're done. THC comes from the roots and boiling it causes it to rise to the buds.


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## RM3 (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Believe what you want to believe for your own grows, but what you're doing is misleading noobs.


Only in your world my friend, I've helped more new growers get their grow on than you can imagine. Funny thing, new grower comes to my forum and has a great 1st grow every time, never gets trolled, never gets bad advice, ya see we don't do forum rhetoric or myths there. So yeah I drop in here every so often and spread a bit of truth, not my fault you can't see it ???

@DCobeen read my stuff and did a side by side wit T5's, CMH and HPS , the T5 herb was the best 

Not my problem you can't wrap your head around it


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Only in your world my friend, I've helped more new growers get their grow on than you can imagine. Funny thing, new grower comes to my forum and has a great 1st grow every time, never gets trolled, never gets bad advice, ya see we don't do forum rhetoric or myths there. So yeah I drop in here every so often and spread a bit of truth, not my fault you can't see it ???
> 
> @DCobeen read my stuff and did a side by side wit T5's, CMH and HPS , the T5 herb was the best
> 
> Not my problem you can't wrap your head around it


I've never seen the threads on your forum, but if your advice there is anything like your advice here, I disagree that you give good advice. On the contrary, I think you give very bad advice or I'd just let it slide without ever saying anything.


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## Resinhound (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Make sure to flush out the roots with boiling water when you're done. THC comes from the roots and boiling it causes it to rise to the buds.


Ill admit im not totally sold on the boiling thing,but I think rm3 makes some good points about plant quality and moderate intensity.Ill admit its not for everyone and a trade off like anything else.I think there are things to learn from a variety of grow styles.Experimentation is key,and not locking yourself in to a narrow veiw.


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Ill admit im not totally sold on the boiling thing,but I think rm3 makes some good points about plant quality and moderate intensity.Ill admit its not for everyone and a trade off like anything else.I think there are things to learn from a variety of grow styles.Experimentation is key,and not locking yourself in to a narrow veiw.


Everyone has something to learn from other growers? Look at his profile... He's following 0 people while 70 people follow him.

I've already used all those magic spectrum fluorescent lamps he's talking about in the early 00s including the actinic tubes and tubes peaking in 660nm and 430nm. The result was much slower flowering time and much lower yield than the same wattage of HPS.


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## Resinhound (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Everyone has something to learn from other growers? Look at his profile... He's following 0 people while 70 people follow him.
> 
> I've already used all those magic spectrum fluorescent lamps he's talking about in the early 00s including the actinic tubes and tubes peaking in 660nm and 430nm. The result was much slower flowering time and much lower yield than the same wattage of HPS.


Im just saying...yield is not everyones main focus.Ill learn from anyone,but ill experiment and see if it works for me.Im not saying t5 is the best thing to flower with,ive done it.But there are lessons to be learned,regardless.


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## RM3 (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I've never seen the threads on your forum, but if your advice there is anything like your advice here, I disagree that you give good advice. On the contrary, I think you give very bad advice or I'd just let it slide without ever saying anything.


How many of your buds meet this criteria ? 

Potency, 1 bong rip gets you there
Legs, 1 bong rip last for 5+ hours
Tolerance, 1 bong rip always the same high, zero tolerance issues 

All of mine do


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## RM3 (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> The result was much slower flowering time and much lower yield than the same wattage of HPS.


I 've actually reduced flowering times by 7 to 10 days on most strains and could give a flyin fuck about yield ! I grow for the high


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## ttystikk (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I've never seen the threads on your forum, but if your advice there is anything like your advice here, I disagree that you give good advice. On the contrary, I think you give very bad advice or I'd just let it slide without ever saying anything.


I believe you'd respect my opinion, so I'll tell you; 

I've been to @RM3's place, seen the grow, smoked the weed and judged for myself. 

First, his T5 setup is a pretty far cry from what's found in a Hydrofarm catalog, or in most grower's basements; lots of UV supplementation, custom lamps and ballasts that are akin to stepping up from Epistars to Cree LED.

His soil mix is uncomplicated and effective. He takes his plants longer than some before chop. Killing roots or degrading their connection to the tops to help plants sweat out the last bit of resin is a technique not confined to the cannabis industry. He pays careful attention to the cure. 

And, it works. He isn't growing vast quantities, his methods for growing quality aren't the same as for growing mass yield and he's the first to say so. But for a nice personal stash of heady goodness replenished on the regular, his system works just fine.


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## ttystikk (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Everyone has something to learn from other growers? Look at his profile... He's following 0 people while 70 people follow him.
> 
> I've already used all those magic spectrum fluorescent lamps he's talking about in the early 00s including the actinic tubes and tubes peaking in 660nm and 430nm. The result was much slower flowering time and much lower yield than the same wattage of HPS.


You're absolutely correct. But what if you didn't care about yield? Bet it was good smoke!


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> How many of your buds meet this criteria ?
> 
> Potency, 1 bong rip gets you there
> Legs, 1 bong rip last for 5+ hours
> ...


All of the buds I've harvested from HPS without any supplements have been spectacular. Potency and smell come mostly from genetics, and keeping the plants healthy up to the point of ripeness.


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## RM3 (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> All of the buds I've harvested from HPS without any supplements have been spectacular. Potency and smell come mostly from genetics, and keeping the plants healthy up to the point of ripeness.


spectacular does not answer the question LOL


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I believe you'd respect my opinion, so I'll tell you;
> 
> I've been to @RM3's place, seen the grow, smoked the weed and judged for myself.
> 
> ...


I couldn't care less if it was just one guy who was set in his ways, but what I see is some guy making claims that his weed is the best anyone has ever smoked because it's been grown under T5 and teaching other people to copy him. I'd like to see tests if his weed is really more potent than the same pheno under HPS. I don't buy it that his weed is higher quality.


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## ttystikk (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> All of the buds I've harvested from HPS without any supplements have been spectacular. Potency and smell come mostly from genetics, and keeping the plants healthy up to the point of ripeness.


I thought I had good tasting buds from HPS, but the flavors really jumped out when I switched to '860W' CDM Allstart lamps on magnetic ballasts- and that was a step down in overall intensity, as well.


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## RM3 (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I couldn't care less if it was just one guy who was set in his ways, but what I see is some guy making claims that his weed is the best anyone has ever smoked because it's been grown under T5 and teaching other people to copy him. I'd like to see tests if his weed is really more potent than the same pheno under HPS.


let's see, seems @ttystikk said he had not been that high in a long while after we (6 growers) smoked 7 joints over a 6 hour period 

Hmmmmm I wonder why all the folks that have smoked my herb agree it is some of the best they ever had ?


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## ttystikk (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I couldn't care less if it was just one guy who was set in his ways, but what I see is some guy making claims that his weed is the best anyone has ever smoked because it's been grown under T5 and teaching other people to copy him. I'd like to see tests if his weed is really more potent than the same pheno under HPS.


Best ever is a high bar to claim, I didn't hear him say anything like that. Other people say that, which everyone admits is a subjective thing.

Testing might be a good idea, not only to see about absolute amounts but also to see how the cannabinoid profile might differ.

I'm not a sycophant, nor a fanatical convert to The Way, The Grow and The Light brought by the Gospel of @RM3 lol, but I am saying I smoked some damn fine weed at his house.


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## churchhaze (Mar 27, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I thought I had good tasting buds from HPS, but the flavors really jumped out when I switched to '860W' CDM Allstart lamps on magnetic ballasts- and that was a step down in overall intensity, as well.


Well your advice to people is to use that, or for smaller, 315W CMH, which is reasonable advice. Suggesting that noobs should fill their 3x3 with tubes or cfls is just unethical.


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## RM3 (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Well your advice to people is to use that, or for smaller, 315W CMH, which is reasonable advice. Suggesting that noobs should fill their 3x3 with tubes or cfls is just unethical.


And yet several have and are happy with the results

No one is tellin you to change how you grow 

But there are a few folks out and about that want better weed 

I simply tell em how to get it


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## ttystikk (Mar 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Well your advice to people is to use that, or for smaller, 315W CMH, which is reasonable advice. Suggesting that noobs should fill their 3x3 with tubes or cfls is just unethical.


Unethical? Da fuk you talkin' about, Willis?

They're reasonably efficient, cheap, low heat, low intensity and produce a good and eminently tunable spectrum. How is any of that 'unethical'?!

I think MH and single ended HPS should be outlawed, if anything, right along with magnetic ballasts, for crimes against my power bill. All these are arguably less efficient than T5. I'm already hearing rumblings to this effect, in fact.


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## DCobeen (Mar 27, 2016)

Okay seems like a concerned person or 3 here. Nobody who grows wants to admit that someone can do it better/faster and achieve great yield over a few grows but I will say this. I grow dam great smoke and I take a bow to RM3 as his beets mine. I am close but again his is better. I have smoked all around this country and have found none overall to beet his. He has it perfected and does it in less time. I have boiled roots and what it does is makes the plant eat all that is left and finishes drying with a partial cure. I can say this I have grown with every light source out there and T5 HO with aquarium bulbs rock it. Only thing is you cant grow big monster plants with them and they wont be as dense but when you smoke a J with 6 people and they are all baked you know it rocks and dont care what light source you used. Its about perfecting all in a grow and RM3 has done that. If anyone says BS with out trying it then a fool you are as talking without experience means idiot. So go ahead and talk bad without trying it as Then I can put you in the idiot list and ignore you. If he was full if shit he wouldnt have over 400 members in his site as we would all have left a long time ago. We all agree he is a bit diff but his advise is solid and tested. If you really want to grow listen to him. You dont have to do it all his way but if you did life would be easier.


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## oldwatershoes (Mar 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Make sure to flush out the roots with boiling water when you're done. THC comes from the roots and boiling it causes it to rise to the buds.


I've never done a case study on the difference between flowering with a T-5 compared with other HID lights but I would never take advice from someone who has their cultivation practices embedded in old wives tales and folklore rather than objective research and analysis. Throwing boiling water on the roots of a plant may shock it in a way that does in fact cause it to produce more weight or compounds such as cannabinoids but your analysis of where THC comes from is absurd. THC is written into the genes of cannabis much like how insulin and so many other compounds in our bodies are written into our DNA. Yes the cannabis plant's roots do play a large role in helping produce THC but your train of thinking is so misconstrued as to the actual science involved with this process.


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## RM3 (Mar 29, 2016)

oldwatershoes said:


> I've never done a case study on the difference between flowering with a T-5 compared with other HID lights but I would never take advice from someone who has their cultivation practices embedded in old wives tales and folklore rather than objective research and analysis. Throwing boiling water on the roots of a plant may shock it in a way that does in fact cause it to produce more weight or compounds such as cannabinoids but your analysis of where THC comes from is absurd. THC is written into the genes of cannabis much like how insulin and so many other compounds in our bodies are written into our DNA. Yes the cannabis plant's roots do play a large role in helping produce THC but your train of thinking is so misconstrued as to the actual science involved with this process.


He was actually makin fun of the fact that I do it, as do many others

and while it sounds like an old wives tale there is actual science that @churchhaze does not want to acknowledge and it has NOTHING to do with THC

It is based on the FACT that plants ferment sugars into alcohol to survive floods, ALL plants do it and it is caused by the floods killing access to O2 to the roots. If you flood your plants you open things up like mold and bud rot. Watering the roots with boiling water instantly kills roots access to O2 and causes the plan t to start the fermenting process. Leaving it under the lights for 3 to 5 days (varies with strains) causes a fast fade to happen. Once chopped & dried buds will taste like they have had a 10 day cure.

So to simplify Boiling the roots speeds up the cure


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## Resinhound (Mar 29, 2016)

oldwatershoes said:


> I've never done a case study on the difference between flowering with a T-5 compared with other HID lights but I would never take advice from someone who has their cultivation practices embedded in old wives tales and folklore rather than objective research and analysis. Throwing boiling water on the roots of a plant may shock it in a way that does in fact cause it to produce more weight or compounds such as cannabinoids but your analysis of where THC comes from is absurd. THC is written into the genes of cannabis much like how insulin and so many other compounds in our bodies are written into our DNA. Yes the cannabis plant's roots do play a large role in helping produce THC but your train of thinking is so misconstrued as to the actual science involved with this process.


You should read rm3's posts,I dont think he ever said he does it because THC is in the roots...he does it to speed curing and to force the plant to use all availiable nutrients left above the roots.

Dont base your opinions of the man based on one snarky response.

That being said im not totally sold on the practice,but im not adverse to trying it.

Edit:rm3 beat me to it.


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## churchhaze (Mar 29, 2016)

Oh god, I've angered the leprechaun posse. Yeah I'm sure RM3's forum is wonderful, but it pales in comparison to RIU.


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## Sativied (Mar 29, 2016)

RM3 said:


> there is actual science that @churchhaze does not want to acknowledge


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## churchhaze (Mar 30, 2016)

Sativied said:


>


You boil your roots too, right? If not, why not? Boiling the roots causes the THC to flow from the roots to the trichs. THC comes from the roots! When the roots become hot, they will turn red and this red substance (THC) will work its way up the stem until it finally reaches the buds, saturating the crystals with THC.

Also, why are you growing with HPS? You could be using actinic tubes! You'd finally have a good quality smoke to brag about! You could get your potency as high as 25%!

Oh, and sulfur feeds trichs, right? That's a hard science right there. You're overfeeding sulfur right? You should also overfeed P.


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## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Oh god, I've angered the leprechaun posse. Yeah I'm sure RM3's forum is wonderful, but it pales in comparison to RIU.


In members and traffic yes it does, 

in info that is true and based on facts, botany & horticulture with no nonsense, trolls, memes, name calling arguments, we win hands down.

New growers actually get help and have great grows rather than 10 different opinions

and to be fair there is no posse, merely a few folks that know what the truth is


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## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You boil your roots too, right? If not, why not? Boiling the roots causes the THC to flow from the roots to the trichs. THC comes from the roots! When the roots become hot, they will turn red and this red substance (THC) will work its way up the stem until it finally reaches the buds, saturating the crystals with THC.
> 
> Also, why are you growing with HPS? You could be using actinic tubes! You'd finally have a good quality smoke to brag about! You could get your potency as high as 25%!
> 
> Oh, and sulfur feeds trichs, right? That's a hard science right there. You're overfeeding sulfur right? You should also overfeed P.


No one ever said this but you LOL


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## churchhaze (Mar 30, 2016)

RM3 said:


> In members and traffic yes it does,
> 
> in info that is true and based on facts, botany & horticulture with no nonsense, trolls, memes, name calling arguments, we win hands down.
> 
> ...


I disagree. RIU is better in factual information too.


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## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I disagree. RIU is better in factual information too.


Then please share where translucent amber trics are discussed ?

other than by me ,,,,, please and thank you


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## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I disagree. RIU is better in factual information too.


Oh and you still have not answered the question ???


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## churchhaze (Mar 30, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Oh and you still have not answered the question ???


What question are you talking about?


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## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> What question are you talking about?


I asked how many of your buds/strains meet my criteria ?

you said you grow spectacular buds but that does not answer my question ? 

how many requires a number or none for an answer


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## skunkwreck (Mar 30, 2016)

My buddy boils his roots....I thought it was the stupidest thing I've ever heard but now maybe I understand a little why he does that lol....when I grew with cfl's I always thought my plants seemed happier and to be real honest (ppl gonna act stupid) I pull about the same with them cfl's as I do with hps , now for some reason I like flowering under a 4300k MH it makes my plants "look" better . I'm wanting to try a 7000k MH just to see what the kelvin difference between the two will do....my love for cfl's is the many different k ratings that you can find in them and i really think spectrum is a major player in growing cannabis more so then light intensity .


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## churchhaze (Mar 30, 2016)

skunkwreck said:


> My buddy boils his roots....I thought it was the stupidest thing I've ever heard but now maybe I understand a little why he does that lol....when I grew with cfl's I always thought my plants seemed happier and to be real honest (ppl gonna act stupid) I pull about the same with them cfl's as I do with hps , now for some reason I like flowering under a 4300k MH it makes my plants "look" better . I'm wanting to try a 7000k MH just to see what the kelvin difference between the two will do....my love for cfl's is the many different k ratings that you can find in them and i really think spectrum is a major player in growing cannabis more so then light intensity .


Why buy a 7000k MH? You'd clearly be better off with a bunch of actinic T-5s, right RM3? Anyway, I've gotta go to work.


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## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Why buy a 7000k MH? You'd clearly be better off with a bunch of actinic T-5s, right RM3? Anyway, I've gotta go to work.


way to avoid that question, have a great day at work !!!


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## churchhaze (Mar 30, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I asked how many of your buds/strains meet my criteria ?
> 
> you said you grow spectacular buds but that does not answer my question ?
> 
> how many requires a number or none for an answer


What's your criteria, fluffy buds with trichs that degrade before senescence? If so, no. None of my buds meet your criteria.


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## skunkwreck (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Why buy a 7000k MH? You'd clearly be better off with a bunch of actinic T-5s, right RM3? Anyway, I've gotta go to work.


Light intensity and a better spectrum for veg is the idea .


----------



## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> What's your criteria, fluffy buds with trichs that degrade before senescence? If so, no. None of my buds meet your criteria.


Now you're just avoiding ,,, here let me copy it for you ,,,,,

How many of your buds meet this criteria ? 

Potency, 1 bong rip gets you there
Legs, 1 bong rip last for 5+ hours
Tolerance, 1 bong rip always the same high, zero tolerance issues 

All of mine do


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## churchhaze (Mar 30, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Now you're just avoiding ,,, here let me copy it for you ,,,,,
> 
> How many of your buds meet this criteria ?
> 
> ...


I only smoke a 1 hitter bowl each session, so I wouldn't really know. Yeah, I guess 1 bong rip gets me there since a 1 hitter does. I don't know what you mean with legs. I don't go for 5 hours without smoking again.

Bottom line is I'm not trying to compare my stuff with yours anyway. It's your stuff that's under scrutiny since you claimed it's the best.


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## RM3 (Mar 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Bottom line is I'm not trying to compare my stuff with yours anyway. It's your stuff that's under scrutiny since you claimed it's the best.


show me where I did this ???


----------



## skunkwreck (Mar 30, 2016)

Quality over quantity any day...no cash cropping here just looking for that never ending high .


----------



## jafro daweedhound (Mar 30, 2016)

RM3 said:


> To be honest, I kinda enjoy reading the threads that go sideways as it can be entertaining as just an observer, not fun when your the poster and your intent gets stepped on so much I guess. I think a lot of us have been there. And yeppers, I like Uncle Ben, he is a gruffy old dude but he knows his shit when it comes to plants and I well know there are some that disagree with that but I also am guilty of posting in threads to try and protect or steer new growers in a more sane direction. IMO once you move beyond new grower status, you should start experimentin with things and see for yourself. Much like I did in a thread here where defoil was concerned, I took 3 clones (same plant) and removed all the fans on one, some fans on one and no fans on one. The one with no fans removed yielded the most and the one with all fans removed yielded the least. I moved on. I didn't prove anything IMO and I wasted a couple ounces of yield but I saw for myself and have not done it since. With that said, I still tell new growers to do it and see for themselves, because that is what should be happening, it's how we learn.


When it cost you money its called an education, when someone else tells you its hear say...

If someone wants to know something they can google it or find it on some media format and they have the answer in minutes and then they know. Once appon a time in the dawning of modern cultivation no computers were around. We had to find things out the hard way more often than not. We used technical papers on things like tomatoes and cucumbers, asked old gardeners discreetly while trying not to say the "c" word (cannabis), or we seen something happening that was unusual and we wondering "why". Well google was not googling - and the most curious had some deep seeded desire to figure this out. There was always one of your friends that heard something and more often than not your next crop might be trying some of these "new " ideas or at least had them in the back of your mind to try and make sense out of it. Over the years new ideas like snake oil salesman have come and gone - remember the "Photon Chamber"? Ideas come and go s better ones come along. Point being someone had to find a better mouse trap.
People get stuck on a certain path and don't get off it because they feel they "know the right way" that is until the tides of accepted knowledge changes. Everyone you knows uses 18/6 light regime for veg/ 12/12 for flowering. They do this because they know it is right, we all know that...... What happens if you change that ??? what if flowering works better 24 on and 24 off, what happens at 36 hours on and 12 off ? 6 on/ 12 off ? Do you know ? I do- I have taken the time to do these and many other experiments with photo periods ( as one example) Like my opening statement that it is an education when it cost you money. I have been doing things that my peers have said I was nuts. And after over 30 years of being told that many of my first detractors now call me first when they have a problem or "crazy idea" to try something new. Many remember me trying something like that once years ago. Well to simply say something doesn't work is cheating yourself. True more ideas wont work than do. But not to keep your options open and to say we know everything is a dangerous and boring path to take On the other end of the spectrum are those who use others trials as their pissing post to try to keep them down. You cant explain what is happening so it really cant be working is the rout taken by some.
Keep an open mind, try to see outside your comfort zone, and try something new. watch what works for you. We have so much to learn that the future will look nothing like today - just ask yourself where in the evolutionary chain will you be standing ???


----------



## ttystikk (Mar 30, 2016)

jafro daweedhound said:


> When it cost you money its called an education, when someone else tells you its hear say...
> 
> If someone wants to know something they can google it or find it on some media format and they have the answer in minutes and then they know. Once appon a time in the dawning of modern cultivation no computers were around. We had to find things out the hard way more often than not. We used technical papers on things like tomatoes and cucumbers, asked old gardeners discreetly while trying not to say the "c" word (cannabis), or we seen something happening that was unusual and we wondering "why". Well google was not googling - and the most curious had some deep seeded desire to figure this out. There was always one of your friends that heard something and more often than not your next crop might be trying some of these "new " ideas or at least had them in the back of your mind to try and make sense out of it. Over the years new ideas like snake oil salesman have come and gone - remember the "Photon Chamber"? Ideas come and go s better ones come along. Point being someone had to find a better mouse trap.
> People get stuck on a certain path and don't get off it because they feel they "know the right way" that is until the tides of accepted knowledge changes. Everyone you knows uses 18/6 light regime for veg/ 12/12 for flowering. They do this because they know it is right, we all know that...... What happens if you change that ??? what if flowering works better 24 on and 24 off, what happens at 36 hours on and 12 off ? 6 on/ 12 off ? Do you know ? I do- I have taken the time to do these and many other experiments with photo periods ( as one example) Like my opening statement that it is an education when it cost you money. I have been doing things that my peers have said I was nuts. And after over 30 years of being told that many of my first detractors now call me first when they have a problem or "crazy idea" to try something new. Many remember me trying something like that once years ago. Well to simply say something doesn't work is cheating yourself. True more ideas wont work than do. But not to keep your options open and to say we know everything is a dangerous and boring path to take On the other end of the spectrum are those who use others trials as their pissing post to try to keep them down. You cant explain what is happening so it really cant be working is the rout taken by some.
> Keep an open mind, try to see outside your comfort zone, and try something new. watch what works for you. We have so much to learn that the future will look nothing like today - just ask yourself where in the evolutionary chain will you be standing ???


My lab is a testament to this very idea. I believe you'd feel right at home.


----------



## Sativied (Mar 30, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> My lab is a testament to this very idea.


Oh please tell me you're just mocking yourself... 

@churchhaze: I don't always boil my roots but when I do it's to eat them. I don't see the point of curing faster when a harvest lasts me months longer than it has to dry. I was just confirming the part that there is actual science you ignore.



RM3 said:


> No one ever said this but you LOL


Indeed, just another of his usual and transparent straw man attacks. No point in debating someone who so blatantly renounced the authority of reason, it's like giving medicine to the dead according to Thomas Paine.


----------



## VicoDaRuler (Apr 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I don't take a lot of of whole plant shots but I have a few, these are my own CTF strain same as the popcorns above,,,
> View attachment 3311509


Holly molly all that bud action with T5s  sensei please except me in your school as your student


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## RM3 (Apr 20, 2016)

VicoDaRuler said:


> Holly molly all that bud action with T5s  sensei please except me in your school as your student


Any time ,,,,,
http://growhappyplants.com/


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## ttystikk (Apr 20, 2016)

"Sinse"...? Lol


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## Skunk Baxter (Apr 20, 2016)

I don't understand all this childish, senseless bickering over the leprechaun and his methodology, and it really gets way beyond tiresome. The man has developed a way of cultivating cannabis that works well for him, and everyone who has sampled his product confirms that what he does works extremely well. He's here offering advice and suggestions that everyone else on the board is perfectly free to either take or ignore - he's not trying to force anyone to do it his way.


A lot of what he says may be useless to most growers, because our preferred model is so different than his that we can't really incorporate his methods, but even then at least we know a little more about cannabis cultivation from reading what he shares. Knowledge which we may or may not use at some point, but either way, at least our knowledge of the subject is somewhat deeper and broader than it otherwise would have been.


Some of us have adopted some of his techniques and found them to be useful, some of us have not directly taken any of his advice but at least have made note of it and may use some of his suggestions to improve our own methods. I may never adopt a single technique of his, but a lot of what he has said is filed away and may someday connect up with other pieces of information to help me learn something new and useful about cannabis cultivation, and I greatly appreciate having him here.

If you don't like the way he grows, don't grow that way. But please, enough with the sniping and the bombthrowing.


----------



## ttystikk (Apr 20, 2016)

I've met him, he's a nice guy with a modest and completely compliant grow that happens to suit his needs very well. He's taught me quite a bit and I plan to put much of what I've learned from his setup to use elsewhere. 

I swear, saying it every half dozen pages IS beginning to get old.


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## RM3 (Apr 20, 2016)

Thank You !!!! ^^^^ @Skunk Baxter 

The good news is that there a few that do follow me so my intent to not lose the info or the art is taken care of, it will live on  

Those that disagree are totally ok with sub par weed and I'm ok with that and I don't mean that in a mean way. Truth be told in the end the bitchin is about money as I discount a lot of the black market growing ways that turn fast cash. But even then they are wrong because there is so much more money to be made when doin things proper.

I gave a sample to a visitor once that got $50 a gram for it, yeppers guy bought 2 grams for $100 and it lasted him over a month. I had another grower that grew one of my strains out usin only some of my methods and got $70 for a 1/4 oz

Perhaps the notion that better herb brings higher dollar escapes those that troll ???


----------



## RM3 (Apr 20, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I swear, saying it every half dozen pages IS beginning to get old.


imagine fightin that tornado with a feather since 09 LOL


----------



## ky man (Apr 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Thank You !!!! ^^^^ @Skunk Baxter
> 
> The good news is that there a few that do follow me so my intent to not lose the info or the art is taken care of, it will live on
> 
> ...


I just wish I could get some of all your beans to grow.YES better weed brings lots moor cash to my hands and thats all I try to grow...ky..ps top grad weed will sell when the less weed cant be given away..the people I deal with will pay top doller for the great weed...happy 2'20


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## RM3 (Apr 20, 2016)

ky man said:


> I just wish I could get some of all your beans to grow.YES better weed brings lots moor cash to my hands and thats all I try to grow...ky..ps top grad weed will sell when the less weed cant be given away..the people I deal with will pay top doller for the great weed...happy 2'20


When it becomes legal to mail them I will happily do so but until then only way to get em is to visit me in Denver


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## ttystikk (Apr 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> When it becomes legal to mail them I will happily do so but until then only way to get em is to visit me in Denver


And as I said just a few posts above, he's worth the effort!


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## ky man (Apr 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Any time ,,,,,
> http://growhappyplants.com/


man I went to your site for just a few.Dam I would love some of that thunder express strain if I spelled it rite.I have never grown not even one plant indoors but this winter iam going to try and grow just 4 plants and see if I can.I wish you lived close to me I would take lessons from you.I liked the looks of all your strains.This winter I mite hit you up for some help on growing indoore if you don't mind..I will try to join your site soon.I love to read so I think I can learn a lot from your site...happy 4;20 and happy breading and growing to you...ky


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## ky man (Apr 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> When it becomes legal to mail them I will happily do so but until then only way to get em is to visit me in Denver


I may just half to take a road trip to Denver this winter just to meet you if that is possibale..ky


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## ky man (Apr 21, 2016)

mr3 I just wish you lived on the farm that joins my farm,if you did I know you could teach me how to grow indoors.i will be talking to you again on your site soon.And one day try to come and meet you.for I know you know your shit growing weed..ky


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## ky man (Apr 21, 2016)

ment to say RM3...


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## churchhaze (Apr 28, 2016)

ky man said:


> mr3 I just wish you lived on the farm that joins my farm,if you did I know you could teach me how to grow indoors.i will be talking to you again on your site soon.And one day try to come and meet you.for I know you know your shit growing weed..ky


Get an HPS lamp if you want to grow indoors. T5s are for people who don't care about how much they yield. HPS will yield way more and produce dense, high quality buds.


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## RM3 (Apr 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Get an HPS lamp if you want to grow indoors. T5s are for people who don't care about how much they yield. HPS will yield way more and produce dense, high quality buds.


Just kills ya don't it


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## churchhaze (Apr 28, 2016)

"How to yield like crap by using inefficient lamps with excessive levels of blue.." by RM3..

"How to throw a nutrient solution out of wack by using excessive levels of S." by RM3

"How to look like a complete fool by pouring boiling water on roots." by RM3 (Don't forget that this kick-starts the fermentation process!)

How's your newest book, "How to put a nail in the stalk to increase %THC", coming along?


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## churchhaze (Apr 28, 2016)

So which terp contains S in its molecular structure? None. S is mostly needed to produce ferrodoxin proteins and is only needed at around 30-60ppm.


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## RM3 (Apr 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> How's your newest book, "How to put a nail in the stalk to increase %THC", coming along?


That doesn't do anything, hell even most noob's know that LOL


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## RM3 (Apr 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> So which terp contains S in its molecular structure? None. S is mostly needed to produce ferrodoxin proteins and is only needed at around 30-60ppm.


try it yet ??? LOL


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## churchhaze (Apr 28, 2016)

No, nail through the stalk causes the plant to get stressed out and to start producing tons of THC to reward you for such a smart idea!


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## RM3 (Apr 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> No, nail through the stalk causes the plant to get stressed out and to start producing tons of THC to reward you for such a smart idea!


no it doesn't LOL


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## churchhaze (Apr 28, 2016)

RM3 said:


> try it yet ??? LOL


Actually, I did try it because I saw you suggest it about a year ago. It didn't make a difference in smell or quality. Like with P, if it doesn't make a difference to add more, it's better not to add it because it will antagonize other ions and increases the risk of precipitation. S is very much like P in this regard. It's bad advice to suggest using more than needed.


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## RM3 (Apr 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Actually, I did try it because I saw you suggest it about a year ago. It didn't make a difference in smell or quality. Like with P, if it doesn't make a difference to add more, it's better not to add it because it will antagonize other ions and increases the risk of precipitation. S is very much like P in this regard. It's bad advice to suggest using more than needed.


All I can then is that you didn't do it right ???

there are actually 100's of growers doing this and all report the same things Da weed is better !


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## ky man (Apr 30, 2016)

RM3 said:


> All I can then is that you didn't do it right ???
> 
> there are actually 100's of growers doing this and all report the same things Da weed is better !


I have never tried a nail,but I have cut on the stalk like you showed in your picters and it dos incress the rosen lots and I have did that for years..You are a great grower and breeder in my book.I just wish I could grow like you indoores.This fall when my outdoor is dun I am going to start my first indoor grow this fall.ky


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## VicoDaRuler (May 1, 2016)




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## caumop (May 1, 2016)

@RM3, l would like to add UVB(A) spectrum to my next grow. It seems like the two best choices are the Hortilux power veg, or the agromax pure UV. Do you have a recommendation on which one is best?

I love the info and help you give this forum. Please don't stop.

Smoke in peace everyone.


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## RM3 (May 1, 2016)

caumop said:


> @RM3, l would like to add UVB(A) spectrum to my next grow. It seems like the two best choices are the Hortilux power veg, or the agromax pure UV. Do you have a recommendation on which one is best?
> 
> I love the info and help you give this forum. Please don't stop.
> 
> Smoke in peace everyone.


my next purchase will be the agromax pure UV 

the Wave Point Ultra Cola's also have UV


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## VicoDaRuler (May 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> my next purchase will be the agromax pure UV
> 
> the Wave Point Ultra Cola's also have UV


 What schedule do you put the uv light on or at what stage do you apply the uv lighting?


----------



## RM3 (May 1, 2016)

VicoDaRuler said:


> What schedule do you put the uv light on or at what stage do you apply the uv lighting?


same as the others, Mom Nature does not cycle the UV it's always there ,,,,,,,,

My seedling lamp has UV
My veg lamp has UV
my flower lamp has UV 

Just like outside


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## ky man (May 1, 2016)

RM3 said:


> same as the others, Mom Nature does not cycle the UV it's always there ,,,,,,,,
> 
> My seedling lamp has UV
> My veg lamp has UV
> ...


Iam going to do my best to come see you this fall befor the snow flyes at your place.I wount to come and pick your brain and get some of your beans.I will grow some of them indoore,,keep posting I love to read your stuff and please post plenty of your grow picters I love to look at them,thank you for all you do to help people like me and others out..ky...your a good man for helping people..thank you again from kentuckey.


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## jj2012 (May 24, 2016)

Just started a thread for cannabis science. Feel free to get involved or invite the smartest person you know and pull up a seat and learn a thing or two from the elite. I dubbed the thread cannabis science and it could be an epic thread if we get enough participation so spread the word please. If you got scientific facts to argue your case against the gurus I would love for you to take part. Have a good one everyone.


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## a mongo frog (May 24, 2016)

jj2012 said:


> Just started a thread for cannabis science. Feel free to get involved or invite the smartest person you know and pull up a seat and learn a thing or two from the elite. I dubbed the thread cannabis science and it could be an epic thread if we get enough participation so spread the word please. If you got scientific facts to argue your case against the gurus I would love for you to take part. Have a good one everyone.


Is bro science welcome?


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## dabbindylan (May 24, 2016)

[email protected] what u think about the t5 vho 95w bulb...been using 54w x8 but my question is if u get the higher watt bulb but ur light is rated at 487w will there be a increase in lumen/ power. Or will it be same as ballast is rated to that watt?


----------



## jj2012 (May 24, 2016)

Anyone who wants to be welcome is welcome. You don't have to be a scientist if you know what your talking about. If you did a controlled side by side experiment you want to share that would be awesome. I'm just going to be watching and trying to learn something. Feel free to stop by and bring friends. Sorry to whoever started this thread just thought it was a good thread to start and wanted to invite you guys to join in.


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## RM3 (May 25, 2016)

dabbindylan said:


> [email protected] what u think about the t5 vho 95w bulb...been using 54w x8 but my question is if u get the higher watt bulb but ur light is rated at 487w will there be a increase in lumen/ power. Or will it be same as ballast is rated to that watt?


I would think it would require a different ballast


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## RM3 (May 25, 2016)

jj2012 said:


> Anyone who wants to be welcome is welcome. You don't have to be a scientist if you know what your talking about. If you did a controlled side by side experiment you want to share that would be awesome. I'm just going to be watching and trying to learn something. Feel free to stop by and bring friends. Sorry to whoever started this thread just thought it was a good thread to start and wanted to invite you guys to join in.


You should have shared a link


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## ttystikk (May 25, 2016)

RM3 said:


> You should have shared a link


Maybe. From where I sit, isn't this the main purpose of this whole forum?


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## RM3 (May 25, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Maybe. From where I sit, isn't this the main purpose of this whole forum?


Yeah, his thread is empty, it is like calling the bullies on the playground out to play LOL 

I went there expecting a shitstorm but it hasn't happened yet


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## ttystikk (May 25, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Yeah, his thread is empty, it is like calling the bullies on the playground out to play LOL
> 
> I went there expecting a shitstorm but it hasn't happened yet


We're too busy doing science, lol

Give it time, surely RIU won't disappoint!


----------



## jj2012 (May 25, 2016)

All I can do is lay out what I would like for it to be. I am new here so I need help getting the word out. I feel if we get enough well known members to participate it could be an amazing read for anyone who wants to learn or teach. Help me make it a shitstorm. It is what we make it. Help me separate fact from theory.


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## RM3 (May 25, 2016)

jj2012 said:


> All I can do is lay out what I would like for it to be. I am new here so I need help getting the word out. I feel if we get enough well known members to participate it could be an amazing read for anyone who wants to learn or teach. Help me make it a shitstorm. It is what we make it. Help me separate fact from theory.


Your new, so you don't get that RIU will not accept facts or science for the most part. Here you are lucky if you reach just one new member to break away from the bro science nonsense that is spread here. I've been posting here for years


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## dabbindylan (May 25, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Your new, so you don't get that RIU will not accept facts or science for the most part. Here you are lucky if you reach just one new member to break away from the bro science nonsense that is spread here. I've been posting here for years


Thanks for your help they do make light fistures specifically for 95w bulbs...so im stick to my reef lights in my hydrafarm setup...btw with out your postings id prolly still be running hps systems insstead of my t5 led blend..u rock keep fightin the good fight


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## whitebb2727 (May 25, 2016)

All I can say is for the t5 part I have followed rm3 threads.

For anyone wondering this is an auto, it has a main cola the size from my elbow to my fist and bigger diameter than a pop can. It is not fluffy, it is hard as a rock.

I use a 432 watt t5 with agromax bulbs including UV.

I have more pics in the last few post of my thread. It takes forever to load high def pics with my phone.

Um yea though, plenty of frost and it smokes good.


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## churchhaze (May 25, 2016)

dabbindylan said:


> Thanks for your help they do make light fistures specifically for 95w bulbs...so im stick to my reef lights in my hydrafarm setup...btw with out your postings id prolly still be running hps systems insstead of my t5 led blend..u rock keep fightin the good fight


Sucker.


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## churchhaze (May 25, 2016)

It kick starts the fermentation!! it's science! While everyone else here spews bro science, RM3 is the only person telling you the *truth!!*

*THC IS FROM THE ROOTS*


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## churchhaze (May 25, 2016)

If you read my book, you'll learn to to flush with mountain dew, put rusty nails through the stalks, grow with blacklights, and literally feed hungry trichs with sulfur to make them fat and turn amber prematurely.


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## churchhaze (May 25, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Your new, so you don't get that RIU will not accept facts or science for the most part. Here you are lucky if you reach just one new member to break away from the bro science nonsense that is spread here. I've been posting here for years


They're all trying to deceive you!!







Listen to RM3, he's telling the *truth *and science!


----------



## pookat (May 25, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> If you read my book


What book?.....before you say ... i don't have money, ...is it free?, got the same problem with RM3's book...just outta reach, but i have found out... i never knew, i knew so much, nice to have conformation on your " furkin idiot" grow methods,


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## RM3 (May 25, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> It kick starts the fermentation!! it's science! While everyone else here spews bro science, RM3 is the only person telling you the *truth!!*
> 
> *THC IS FROM THE ROOTS*


Keep walkin around with your dick out, everyone knows I have NEVER said this LOL


----------



## ky man (May 25, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Keep walkin around with your dick out, everyone knows I have NEVER said this LOL


IF people would listen to this man they dam sure can learn from him.his work and grows speack for them sealf..I love reading your stuff and I learn smoothing every time I read your post and look at your grows,so thank you for all you do to help me and others...ky


----------



## ttystikk (May 25, 2016)

ky man said:


> IF people would listen to this man they dam sure can learn from him.his work and grows speack for them sealf..I love reading your stuff and I learn smoothing every time I read your post and look at your grows,so thank you for all you do to help me and others...ky


@churchhaze has been increasingly out to lunch on this subject over the past couple of years. He's even gotten angry and made personal attacks. 

I've laid eyeballs on @RM3's op and it works very well for what he wants; high quality, with plenty enough quantity to serve his needs- which includes smoking out as many friends as he can invite over, lol. 

Is it scalable to megawatts? I doubt it, but since when was that an essential criteria for a fucking personal grow?!


----------



## whitebb2727 (May 25, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> @churchhaze has been increasingly out to lunch on this subject over the past couple of years. He's even gotten angry and made personal attacks.
> 
> I've laid eyeballs on @RM3's op and it works very well for what he wants; high quality, with plenty enough quantity to serve his needs- which includes smoking out as many friends as he can invite over, lol.
> 
> Is it scalable to megawatts? I doubt it, but since when was that an essential criteria for a fucking personal grow?!


Yea, that croc humper dude was giving me grief because I grow in a cabinet. 

I told him that fire is fire. Small grows don't equal bad smoke because they are small. Actually quite the contrary. I have to push that small space hard and every nug has to be good.

I could easily scale up.


----------



## Sativied (May 25, 2016)

RM3 said:


> everyone knows I have NEVER said this LOL


Please keep in mind this is the very thread where he suffered his initial trauma and just can't help himself with the strawman attack reaction. It's a bit like with Gary Busy, only ok to laugh when he is actually trying to be funny.



whitebb2727 said:


> Yea, that croc humper dude was giving me grief because I grow in a cabinet.


For your 2x4' cabinet? yeah that is just a kiddy setup compared to his 2x4' tent


----------



## whitebb2727 (May 25, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Please keep in mind this is the very thread where he suffered his initial trauma and just can't help himself with the strawman attack reaction. It's a bit like with Gary Busy, only ok to laugh when he is actually trying to be funny.
> 
> For your 2x4' cabinet? yeah that is just a kiddy setup compared to his 2x4' tent


Apparently he blows mobile homes out. 

He just wouldn't understand that fire is fire. I don't care where it was grown. 

I got hooked in the t5. The mixed spectrum is awesome. The 10,000k, pure par, and pure UV are some good bulbs. I can tell a huge difference in them.

I was toying with the idea of running a 600 air cooled hid in my 2x4. Plus a couple of the t5 bulbs. That would be pushing that space to the limit.


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## ttystikk (May 25, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Apparently he blows mobile homes out.
> 
> He just wouldn't understand that fire is fire. I don't care where it was grown.
> 
> ...


I'd suggest a 315W CMH system instead.


----------



## Sativied (May 25, 2016)

He was growing in a 2x4 or so tent about a year ago, those pics I've seen, the rest is more likely in his head or he stole some pics from a buddy at his home-trailerpark.



whitebb2727 said:


> I was toying with the idea of running a 600 air cooled hid in my 2x4. Plus a couple of the t5 bulbs. That would be pushing that space to the limit.


I used to run 600 in 3x4' flower closet but rebuild to 4x4' for convenience. 600w on 3x3 works too with good venting but is pushing it already, at 1sqft less _and_ T5 that would be pushing a little over the top I think. Cmh 315 + T5 could work nicely though. 

I totally understand the space limit. When you grow for personal use in a limited space you want to pull the most quality bud from a space. I hardly even weigh anything anymore. With different varieties or females and males, at different stages, there's little point. As long as my jars are filled and I got some seeds.


----------



## whitebb2727 (May 25, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I'd suggest a 315W CMH system instead.


It has to be mounted vertical?


----------



## whitebb2727 (May 25, 2016)

Sativied said:


> He was growing in a 2x4 or so tent about a year ago, those pics I've seen, the rest is more likely in his head or he stole some pics from a buddy at his home-trailerpark.
> 
> 
> I used to run 600 in 3x4' flower closet but rebuild to 4x4' for convenience. 600w on 3x3 works too with good venting but is pushing it already, at 1sqft less _and_ T5 that would be pushing a little over the top I think. Cmh 315 + T5 could work nicely though.
> ...


I grow outdoors guerilla to.
  
I got pot. I just like going against the grain. 

I like the t5. Just tossing the ideas around for more power.


----------



## ttystikk (May 25, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> It has to be mounted vertical?


You can mount them in any orientation, with our without a fixture.


----------



## ky man (May 28, 2016)

RM3 said:


> You should have shared a link


please post lots moor picters for I love looking at your plants in your grow.old or new picters is great for me to look at..thank you and good luck with your grow.ky


----------



## RM3 (May 28, 2016)

ky man said:


> please post lots moor picters for I love looking at your plants in your grow.old or new picters is great for me to look at..thank you and good luck with your grow.ky


I'm always postin pics


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 2, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Everyone has something to learn from other growers? Look at his profile... He's following 0 people while 70 people follow him.
> .


not sure how that's relevant, I don't "follow" anyone either.
Just being a neutral bystander here.
that being said I use two 600w HIDs, one mh, one hps.


----------



## ky man (Jun 3, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I'm always postin pics


I still think you should move close to me or on my farm in ky, and teach me HOW TO GROW INDOOR WEED we would have a blast.sounds great don't it LOL .I just wish I could grow indoor half as good as you for I think from what I have sean on this site from you your one of the 1 percent of the best..ky..PS...And if you ever wount to move to ky, you got free land here to live on for FREE leasons..LOL


----------



## bravedave (Jun 3, 2016)

Hey @RM3 

Grow 2 with my t5 augmentation. Will tweak a little more next grow. Definitely getting increased frost. 

 

I am using ATIs product. How often do you change the bulbs?


----------



## RM3 (Jun 3, 2016)

bravedave said:


> I am using ATIs product. How often do you change the bulbs?


Once a year for all but UV/actinic then every 6 months


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Once a year for all but UV/actinic then every 6 months


You realize that @Sativied has been smashing you on other threads indirectly, right? He keeps trashing people for using 4000k because it has too much blue. He doesn't want to call you out personally because you guys are buddies, but if you read the thread clearly, it's clear that *even he thinks you're full of shit*. (WAY TOO MUCH BLUE)


----------



## RM3 (Jun 3, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You realize that


I realize that you should seek out some one that gives a fuck


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 3, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I realize that you should seek out some one that gives a fuck


There's no fanatic quite as intolerant as the newly converted- and confused, lol


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Okay well I'm just putting it out there. @Sativied is very inconsistent with his arguments and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.

It's clear his arguments have nothing to do with "intellectual honesty", and everything to do with getting under people's skin. (that didn't take much work to find out)

If that wasn't the case, he would make the same arguments against RM3 for his *overly expensive and overly blue lights* as he does for the people using 4000k lamps. The reason he doesn't do this is because he's just a troll without any real arguments.

@RM3, sativied spent a few days talking about how 4000k has too much blue light and talked a lot of trash about people who used 4000k. If you had some common sense, you'd realize his argument is mainly toward you. @Sativied , be consistent if you want to sound like an honest person searching for the truth.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 3, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Okay well I'm just putting it out there.


careful a bird might poop on it


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Most experienced growers can see it on their own that RM3's advice is shit (who would give up their HPS for 32 dollar aquarium tubes?), but making yourself sound like an authority on the subject while trying to help noobs... you should really be scrutinized more, not less. Noobs are wasting money on expensive garbage because of this guy.

At least sativied knows to use an HPS, not to use blacklights, not to boil his roots, and to feed a balanced nutrition plan. Despite his horrible attitude, he rarely misleads noobs like RM3 does.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

RM3's got some good stuff to say, just not about light. He can tell you when your buds are finished.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Maybe you guys could help out in the "Cannabis Science" thread. I'm sure you have a lot of scientific things you could add. They're on a roll.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

@ttystikk , you've changed ever since working for Canna.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 3, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Most experienced growers can see it on their own that RM3's advice is shit (who would give up their HPS for 32 dollar aquarium tubes?), but making yourself sound like an authority on the subject while trying to help noobs... you should really be scrutinized more, not less. Noobs are wasting money on expensive garbage because of this guy.
> 
> At least sativied knows to use an HPS, not to use blacklights, not to boil his roots, and to feed a balanced nutrition plan. Despite his horrible attitude, he rarely misleads noobs like RM3 does.


It's funny, yet another grower tried the T5's and said it was better. It's not just me sayin these things. And I'm not misleadin anyone all I do is show folks how I grow


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

RM3 said:


> It's funny, yet another grower tried the T5's and said it was better. It's not just me sayin these things. And I'm not misleadin anyone all I do is show folks how I grow


Well explain to Sativied why having ridiculously high levels of blue can give you better results because he's the one who's been screaming about it for the past few days..

The only reason he won't argue with you is because he likes you, but he's made it clear in another thread that he disagrees with the levels of blue you use.

I also disagree with the high levels of blue you use. * I agree with sativied that you use way too much blue.*


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

@Rev.thenatural what do you have to say about ultra blue MH? @RM3 agrees with you. You can forget about all the shit chuck gave you because he likes RM3. @Rev.thenatural just became a hero.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

This thread is a great read.

http://rollitup.org/t/halide-revisited.894709/

"Slapped an old standard Phillips home depot 4100k special right next to the 14000k Hamilton beach and suddenly seen the most incredible spectrum I've ever seen and the fastest response from the plants I've ever seen as I watched them grow a node the first five hours I slapped it on." -Rev.Thenatural

Enjoy.


----------



## Sativied (Jun 3, 2016)

Hahaa.... What is all this church, a third person strawman attack?  You're litterally insane thinking _you_ can convince riddle how _I_ think about him by referring to my comments towards cob users anal about efficiency and gpw and caring zero about their plants. Sounds like you picked up your crack habit again and just will never understand "context". 



ttystikk said:


> There's no fanatic quite as intolerant as the newly converted


QFT. 



churchhaze said:


> Okay well I'm just putting it out there. @Sativied is very inconsistent with his arguments and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.
> 
> It's clear his arguments have nothing to do with "intellectual honesty", and everything to do with getting under people's skin. (that didn't take much work to find out)
> 
> ...


 Sativied, Sativied, Sativied... you're obsessed. You renounced the authority of reason long ago and lack the intellect to separate fact from your wishfulthinking fabrications so don't you worry about intellectual honesty. You need intellect before intellectual honesty starts to matter and you have shown again and again you just lie out of your ass with your endless strawman and personal attacks.

After such a transparent attempt to get under Riddle's skin you really think your butthurt comments have any value? Is your IQ really as low as your EQ so obviously is... Seek help before you waste another year of your life being so bitter and butthurt.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Hahaa.... What is all this church, a third person strawman attack?  You're litterally insane thinking _you_ can convince riddle how _I_ think about him by referring to my comments towards cob users anal about efficiency and gpw and caring zero about their plants. Sounds like you picked up your crack habit again and just will never understand "context".
> 
> 
> QFT.
> ...


Bullshit. You can't go ranting on another thread about how the 4000k 80cri spectrum has too much blue and then come back here and act like way more blue than that is normal.

You know what you wrote and what it meant. You spent days trying to convince a bunch of people that the blue in 4000k would cause photoinhibition. Now RM3 uses way more and you think it's a great idea. Bullshit.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

@RM3, you should post more in that 3500k vs 4000k vs 5000k thread and help correct @Sativied. He doesn't realize that blue produces frost and you need to go explain that to him! Explain to him the benefits of growing with unfiltered blacklights because sativied clearly doesn't subscribe to your nonsense (yet).


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

@Sativied, maybe if you paid more attention to @RM3, you'd realize that your weed could be 10x better if you used 32 dollar T5 tubes. You're just a cheapo.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 3, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> @churchhaze has been increasingly out to lunch on this subject over the past couple of years. He's even gotten angry and made personal attacks.
> 
> I've laid eyeballs on @RM3's op and it works very well for what he wants; high quality, with plenty enough quantity to serve his needs-


Is it true that his plants don't smell because they're so happy? 

I'm sorry RM, but I have to call bullshit on that one. That just doesn't make any sense


----------



## cannawizard (Jun 3, 2016)

Okay...

everyone take a breather or two, and just relax.. its pretty obvious where this is going~


----------



## RM3 (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Is it true that his plants don't smell because they're so happy?
> 
> I'm sorry RM, but I have to call bullshit on that one. That just doesn't make any sense


And yet it has been verified by several members here


----------



## Sativied (Jun 3, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> At least sativied knows to use an HPS, not to use blacklights, not to boil his roots, and to feed a balanced nutrition plan. Despite his horrible attitude, he rarely misleads noobs like RM3 does.


The only one posting in this thread with his typical horrible attitude is you. The only one misleading people, actually making an effort to do so, for the sake of epeen, is you. 

I see no harm in boiling roots, I don't know why that excites you so much. Riddle knows we don't agree on everything, must be hard for you to be confronted with the fact that is possible and doesn't justify meltdowns... Nobody put his happy no smell plants theory under more scrutiny here than I did discussing it with him, with his previous account. One or both of the two threads were deleted but that's typical here for the better discussions... 

Noobs who follows RM3 advice, whether partly or to the letter, will do better than noobs do with all the forum nonsense, regardless of the light source. Some of the stuff he says is too hippy for someone like me, but man, he's above all a decent fella and as you once understood, one only trolls the trolls and the ignorant bullshitters. 

Try to understand I don't even actually dislike you and, as I warned you up front, you only succeed in getting under your own skin, nobody else gives a fuck. You try so hard to be an asshole that it reached a point where hps, t5, and led users feel sorry for you. Stop renting so much headspace to people online dude.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 3, 2016)

RM3 said:


> And yet it has been verified by several members here


What would verify it is take a very stinky plant that has been grown in someone elses garden, and see if it magically loses it's stank in your garden. People coming over and seeing/smelling plants that you have selected proves nothing.... other than you might select plants that don't have much odor.

Anyway, if you have some scientific papers on how to make volatile, pungent terpenes disappear I'm all ears....


----------



## RM3 (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> What would verify it is take a very stinky plant that has been grown in someone elses garden, and see if it magically loses it's stank in your garden. People coming over and seeing/smelling plants that you have selected proves nothing.... other than you might select plants that don't have much odor.
> 
> Anyway, if you have some scientific papers on how to make volatile, pungent terpenes disappear I'm all ears....


Sorry no papers 

and I've grown all the old popular strains, have a skunk goin as I type


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 3, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Noobs who follows RM3 advice, whether partly or to the letter, will do better than noobs do with all the forum nonsense


I disagree. Noobs who listen to RM3's advice will spend 32 dollars a tube with way too much blue before realizing how much better HPS works and how much cheaper it is.

Whether it's fallacy or not, common sense says not to listen to people suggesting techniques like boiling roots or putting nails through stems. (jesters) Then there's the fact that he says "sulfur feeds trichs" when trichs don't have sulfur in any of their molecules.

At least the majority of noobs giving advice would likely parrot that HPS is better for flowering than fluorescent tubes, and will automatically do better with that bit of advice.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> What would verify it is take a very stinky plant that has been grown in someone elses garden, and see if it magically loses it's stank in your garden. People coming over and seeing/smelling plants that you have selected proves nothing.... other than you might select plants that don't have much odor.
> 
> Anyway, if you have some scientific papers on how to make volatile, pungent terpenes disappear I'm all ears....


I've found that he's right about the stink. If your plants are happy, they won't stink much until you harvest them. One thing most growers do that practically guarantees stink is switching to bloom nutes when you flip them to 12\12. Wait three weeks & you'll have better results.


----------



## Sativied (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Is it true that his plants don't smell because they're so happy?
> 
> I'm sorry RM, but I have to call bullshit on that one. That just doesn't make any sense


What is true is that unhappy (not to be taken too literraly) plants tend to stink more. There are a lot of valid ways to back up his claim (read up on terpene emission and what affects it, given the right circumstances it can be reduced to very little). In nature it van vary a lot per season, suggesting a huge role for environmental factors. One could argue it's not always a good thing, more emission can mean an increased production too. His claim is more that a grow doesn't have to stink if you keep your plants happy, and that isn't bullshit, it lacks nuance. If you put your nose above or against a bud it will obviously still smell. If you take one plant out of it and put it in a different environment it will stink up a room on its own. Surely ymmv, I certainly wouldn't consider it a reason to stop using carbon filters.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 3, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> I've found that he's right about the stink. If your plants are happy, they won't stink much until you harvest them. One thing most growers do that practically guarantees stink is switching to bloom nutes when you flip them to 12\12. Wait three weeks & you'll have better results.


I run an organically amended soil, so bloom nutrients aren't in my repertoire

.


Sativied said:


> What is true is that unhappy (not to be taken too literraly) plants tend to stink more. There are a lot of valid ways to back up his claim (read up on terpene emission and what affects it, given the right circumstances it can be reduced to very little). In nature it van vary a lot per season, suggesting a huge role for environmental factors. One could argue it's not always a good thing, more emission can mean an increased production too. His claim is more that a grow doesn't have to stink if you keep your plants happy, and that isn't bullshit, it lacks nuance. If you put your nose above or against a bud it will obviously still smell. If you take one plant out of it and put it in a different environment it will stink up a room on its own. Surely ymmv, I certainly wouldn't consider it a reason to stop using carbon filters.


The only thing I can think of would be temperature. I have come across info that suggests that certain terpenes are more volatile at higher temps. I've never run (what I consider to be) a hot flowering room though. My temps never exceed 80 degrees.... usually in the 75 degree range for lights on. I have switched up growing styles many times over the years, and I can't say that I've ever noticed any more/less stank, but if there is any credence to what he's saying, I'd have to believe that it's due to lower temps.

edit: I guess I take issue with the phrase "happy plants". Because a plant doesn't smell, does not equate to "happy" imo. A plant can be dialed in perfectly and still stink. I'd argue that most do.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I run an organically amended soil, so bloom nutrients aren't in my repertoire
> 
> .
> 
> ...


I was skeptical too. I'm not saying there's zero smell, but it is easily managed with a jar of ona. 
When my plants start getting stinky, it's my hint that something is wrong. Like a canary in a coal mine. I'm in week 5 of my current cycle and you'd never know by the smell of my garage.


----------



## singledigit midgit (Jun 3, 2016)

when my ass is happy,my farts dont stink!!!!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 3, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> I was skeptical too. I'm not saying there's zero smell, but it is easily managed with a jar of ona.
> When my plants start getting stinky, it's my hint that something is wrong. Like a canary in a coal mine. I'm in week 5 of my current cycle and you'd never know by the smell of my garage.


What have you changed with your grow? Lights? Nutrients? Temperature?


----------



## pookat (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I guess I take issue with the phrase "happy plants". Because a plant doesn't smell, does not equate to "happy" imo


I used to think i was doing something wrong when people said "your plants dont smell ", untill i found RIU and RM3's non smelly plants, never thought about them being Happy plants just contented no pampering lots of Blue / Uv light fairly mixed up spectrum- i found they made me Happy....but i stink??, So yeah i guess Happy plants are non smelly (also good to meditate with).


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I run an organically amended soil, so bloom nutrients aren't in my repertoire
> 
> .
> 
> ...


They don't stink. I think it has to do with low temperature, plenty of space so they aren't rubbing on each other, relatively cool temperatures, no breeze and very little radiated heat from the lights.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 3, 2016)

singledigit midgit said:


> when my ass is happy,my farts dont stink!!!!


I may regret asking this, but what makes your ass happy??


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 3, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> They don't stink. I think it has to do with low temperature, plenty of space so they aren't rubbing on each other, relatively cool temperatures, no breeze and very little radiated heat from the lights.


That's the one argument that makes some sense (lower temps). I still don't believe that this means that the plants are any more/less "happy" though.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I may regret asking this, but what makes your ass happy??


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> What have you changed with your grow? Lights? Nutrients? Temperature?


Added some blue light, but the biggest factor was running veg nutes all the way through bloom. I still use a little bloom food but only after 3 weeks from the flip.


----------



## singledigit midgit (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I may regret asking this, but what makes your ass happy??


it isnt lots of sulphur, that gives an opposite effect.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 3, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Okay well I'm just putting it out there. @Sativied is very inconsistent with his arguments and anything he says should be taken with a grain of salt.


Did you see his plant pictures yesterday? He's got some dank shit going on, healthy as fuck too. You'd like his plant foot diet what ever it is. They are super healthy.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 3, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> @RM3, you should post more in that 3500k vs 4000k vs 5000k thread and help correct @Sativied. He doesn't realize that blue produces frost and you need to go explain that to him! Explain to him the benefits of growing with unfiltered blacklights because sativied clearly doesn't subscribe to your nonsense (yet).


man... as a neutral BORED bystander, it is preeeeetty evident that you have a BIG ole hard-on for RM3,...
I mean you have a lot of extra energy to direct to somebody on the internet.
I am impressed.. and sorta wonder about it...
I think it's redirected love and affection.
sorta like what I used to do for my roomates yrs back..
i'd leave em a lil message of love.
and i'll be damned if they didn't appreciate it...


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 3, 2016)

Haaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahaahhaahhah


----------



## Sativied (Jun 3, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I disagree.


That has little value anymore to me. You disagreed too often for the sake of disagreeing, your strawman attempts are by definition fabricated for the sole purpose of disagreeing. Most normal reply I've seen from you in a while so let's give this a try.

We already had discussions about hps vs t5. It's no secret which I would recommend in general. I've also been clear in the led forums about the possible effects of blue that a lab test might show. I also explained why it would logically then still make sense to use the higher red and supplement with blue when and where needed once proven to be effective.

The difference between the effects of cool and warm color, and the tradeoff it appears to involve in certain situations, is not new or unfamilar for both hid (mh vs hps) and T5 growers. It's a fact you and others picked the blue cobs thinking they are more "efficient" and that has nothing to do with riddle's choice for T5. Every bit of possible advantage of blue will now be cherrypicked over every well known advantage of red. It's the type of stuff we used to troll together. The same reasoning for using PK boosters.

Above all, still plenty of blue in the for horticulture better suitable cobs. Essentially by pretending the _relative amount_ of blue was my main argument, you post another elaborate strawman attack.

I haven't seen a cob led grow here yet that surpasses the best T5 grows I've seen over the past decade alone already. Just happens to be the case that the admin of the main dutch grow forums (replaced whazzup) is a big t5 fan. I'd pick led over T5 personally, but not how you use led. I don't know rm3's spectrum, I could probably suggest improvements if his goals was (to claim) energy efficiency and max gpw. In his case, not using his space to the limit tells me that is not his goal. Neither is running highest intensity. Sooner or later he and other T5 will switch to led tubes (strips) and then... well, see my posts and comments on the effect of total photosynthesis of a 3d plant instead of thinking net photosyntesis rates of a single leaf. 

Blue light is much more absorbed and penetrates far less. At the same time, again see my posts about diffuse lighting, instead of causing photoinhibition at the top, riddles diffuse light from different angles... If you understand the research I posted and my replies on sts comments, or just sts' comments alone this should all be obvious. Whether he realizes it or not, riddle is in a way ahead of the led guys with the placement of his light sources.

I know you can grow a decent plant too, but let's be honest, the majority of the biggest led fans should spent time learning how to grow a plant, which riddle can help them with much better than most if not all of the led fans. If you were genuinely so concerned about noobs getting the right info, you'd be putting all this effort into teaching the led guys the basics they often so clearly miss.

Have a great weekend.


----------



## Sativied (Jun 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> The only thing I can think of would be temperature. I have come across info that suggests that certain terpenes are more volatile at higher temps.


Even more volatile then they already are. A change in air pressure and wind can influence it too. Temp definitely plays a role, riddle runs high canopy temps" if I remember correctly higher than I do with hps.



st0wandgrow said:


> Because a plant doesn't smell, does not equate to "happy" imo.


I agree. Additionally, happy does not necessarily equate to better. I don't think the phrase happy fits plants, they are bio-chemical factories to me. And from that point of view, they could stink more if something is not going optimal.

The only thing that gives certainty is measuring during the grow and that is hard in this case. Test samples of every week of the cycle, compared to a stinky amnesia haze grow, could perhaps give some insight.


----------



## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2016)

YOU ARE ALL JUST JEALOUS!!!!

PISS OFF WANKERS.

LOVE,
THE SUN 
AKA DE LA SOL


----------



## pookat (Jun 3, 2016)

rkymtnman said:


> WANKER


----------



## elkamino (Jun 3, 2016)

Sativied said:


> see my posts and comments on the effect of total photosynthesis of a 3d plant instead of thinking net photosyntesis rates of a single leaf.


Link?


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> man... as a neutral BORED bystander, it is preeeeetty evident that you have a BIG ole hard-on for RM3,...
> I mean you have a lot of extra energy to direct to somebody on the internet.
> I am impressed.. and sorta wonder about it...
> I think it's redirected love and affection.
> ...


I take it you plan on upgrading your flowering lamps to actinic blue tubes?


----------



## RM3 (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I take it you plan on upgrading your flowering lamps to actinic blue tubes?


I sure do appreciate you bumpin this thread every so often, thanks


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You realize that @Sativied has been smashing you on other threads indirectly, right? He keeps trashing people for using 4000k because it has too much blue. He doesn't want to call you out personally because you guys are buddies, but if you read the thread clearly, it's clear that *even he thinks you're full of shit*. (WAY TOO MUCH BLUE)


What is the point if this?


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I sure do appreciate you bumpin this thread every so often, thanks


Like I said in another thread, if I can save just one noob from spending their startup budget on the crap you suggest, I'll have done this forum a service. The good tubes are 32 bucks a piece?...


----------



## RM3 (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Like I said in another thread, if I can save just one noob from spending their startup budget on the crap you suggest, I'll have done this forum a service. The good tubes are 32 bucks a piece?...


And how many new growers have already done it and are happy about it ?

Good luck with your mission


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

RM3 said:


> And how many new growers have already done it and are happy about it ?
> 
> Good luck with your mission


How many new growers didn't see the results of HPS because they instead bought expensive T5s?

And thanks for the luck with my "mission". If only others would intervene as well when you recommend 32 dollar T5 tubes to noobs. People would have already stopped listening to you.


----------



## Sativied (Jun 4, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Link?


Since this is the light???? thread anyway, let me post some here so you don't have to go down to the sewers of riu.

First time I brought it up was in oct 2014, LED vs HID double ended thread. Very funny thread, origin story material lol... Oh man, I see and remember now sts claiming he may have studied in wageningen haha. Anyway, seriously, well, semi-seriously I brought it up more extensively here again here:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/1000watt-hps-replacement-bulb.903735/#post-12444228
If anything, note the picture...actually let me add it here:
 
and add this one:
 
Replacing glass in greenhouses with diffuse light was the main trend a year or two ago. The increase of total photosynthesis (and not per leaf as the led guys theorize) from the better distribution of light exceeds the loss diffuse glazing by _far_. Uncleben uses them too by now, or was going to anyway. And that is greenhouses with the sun...

For a more some more details see sts posts and my reply here:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/2015-revealed-4000k-660nm.866513/

And from: https://www.rollitup.org/t/3500k-vs-4000k-vs-5000k.910643/page-5 the following:

https://community.greentech.nl/crops/b/knowledge-inspiration/posts/why-diffuse-light-works





Ppfd still doesn't quite cut it. It's intensity on horizontal plane, and not as I mentioned across a 3D plant. The same thing goes for uniformity. In any case, ppf (total light from plant) can be pushed higher across the entire plant than the ppfd (light on m2). By the time you pushed the intensity with toplighting (a common application of led, opposed or in addition to intra/interlighting for the same reasons) to a max (where adding more does not increase photosynthesis), the lower leaves can use more light. 

Combine that with the fact blue light is absorbed much more than red light (yet less efficient for the plant) and thus penetrates far less. Blue light is also much more efficient at causing photoinhibition. On the contrary, (especially far-)red penetrates deeper (as sts mentioned too in that thread). Now if you look at the hps spectrum I posted and combined that with the function of a reflector (better described in a thread at icmag) you can see that apart from the high yellow it has a pretty decent spectrum for growing quantity, and as you know, hps has no problem producing high quality. And that using the cooler white (more blue, less of the most important reds) leds is let's say less sensible given a choice. 

Note: the above is not an argument against using led by itself, it's a consideration one should keep in mind while selecting cobs. Turns out the led folks here use 3500k/4000k, sometimes supplement with red leds, while they can use the 2700/3000k with higher cri and more red, as efficient and intens as they want. 

"_I have been avoiding this issue and focusing on efficiency for starters. We have that pretty well sorted out_ along with heatsinks, so now I am wondering how we can maximize our yield with reflectors." - SupraSPL

Reflectors in that sentence can be replaced by anything relevant, all factors determined by the light or affecting photosynthesis. One of the problems is the led folk think maximize yield from a given number of cobs, while that should not limit spectrum nor the efficiency nor the total light intensity and certainly not max yield from a given space.

Led vs T5 vs hps reached a point where it is like organics vs hydro. It's a choice, they can all grow cannabis. The potential with led is much higher if the you start looking at efficiency at the light target, the plant, instead of just efficiency at the light source, which are two completely different things as I've been saying for years. 

Anyway, as you can see, riddle's light placement could prove to be very efficient if/when he switches to led, and it's factually less of a problem to run high blue because of a. the placement, b. the diffuse light. It very well may be best for RM3 to not remove the diffuse covers typically on retrofit led tubes. 

Obviously there is a huge difference between growing open tall sativas and short wide leaflet afghanicas too. If you grow for max efficiency a proper filled up space (cola to cola to cola) is implied. Well, should be anyway. And then you have a canopy to target and penetrate and all of the above should weigh more heavily in a decision to go for a certain light type or spectrum.

Something (from kiwi seeds, and two ICE) I grew 9 years ago, with 3x18w T8 (usually a combination that involves at least one 827) which according to forummers back then doesn't penetrate very well. Note the (high quality) reflective diffusing material specifically designed for this purpose, on the "walls". 
  

And for completeness, a pic from a grow from Torsti, now admin at (sannie's) dutch grow forum, he used mirrors but also what they now call torsti plates. 
 
Now THAT is efficient growing. Many if not most of the led guys here, usually the one with the biggest mouths, skipped growing in a space efficiently (gr/m2) and focussed primarily on light source efficiency (gpw). Once they get their head of their derriere, they will see there is a little bit more to growing efficiently than selecting cobs and drivers based on efficiency specs.


----------



## UncleBuck (Jun 4, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Since this is the light???? thread anyway, let me post some here so you don't have to go down to the sewers of riu.
> 
> First time I brought it up was in oct 2014, LED vs HID double ended thread. Very funny thread, origin story material lol... Oh man, I see and remember now sts claiming he may have studied in wageningen haha. Anyway, seriously, well, semi-seriously I brought it up more extensively here again here:
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/1000watt-hps-replacement-bulb.903735/#post-12444228
> ...


and yet your tiny penis is still so incredibly tiny.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Since this is the light???? thread anyway, let me post some here so you don't have to go down to the sewers of riu.
> 
> First time I brought it up was in oct 2014, LED vs HID double ended thread. Very funny thread, origin story material lol... Oh man, I see and remember now sts claiming he may have studied in wageningen haha. Anyway, seriously, well, semi-seriously I brought it up more extensively here again here:
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/1000watt-hps-replacement-bulb.903735/#post-12444228
> ...


Who said that diffuse lighting wasn't better? The reason people use cobs is because it's a lot easier to assemble a larger amount of individual leds with less labor. A consequence of this is the lighting isn't as even. It's still pretty good though. A lot more even than a 1000W HPS. I just think you miss the point of why people are using cobs in the first place. You solder hundreds of individual leds to metal circuit boards, drill holes and mount them each individually.

In terms of your friends yield on the other forum.... You said "no that's efficient use of space", but you didn't actually list any numbers. With my low PPFD tent, I'm pulling around 45g/sqft at 1.6g/W. I do plan on raising PPFD in the near future to get that g/sqft up, but I'd still like to know about the watts, grams, and sqft of that "efficient" T5 grow.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> How many new growers didn't see the results of HPS because they instead bought expensive T5s?
> 
> And thanks for the luck with my "mission". If only others would intervene as well when you recommend 32 dollar T5 tubes to noobs. People would have already stopped listening to you.


If only I was lying, or making shit up as I go LMAO 

The reason folks listen is because they come and smoke the buds and they want their buds to be like my buds


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I disagree. Noobs who listen to RM3's advice will spend 32 dollars a tube with way too much blue before realizing how much better HPS works and how much cheaper it is.
> 
> Whether it's fallacy or not, common sense says not to listen to people suggesting techniques like boiling roots or putting nails through stems. (jesters) Then there's the fact that he says "sulfur feeds trichs" when trichs don't have sulfur in any of their molecules.
> 
> At least the majority of noobs giving advice would likely parrot that HPS is better for flowering than fluorescent tubes, and will automatically do better with that bit of advice.


You've lost your god damned mind man. Give it up and get the fuck out of here. This thread is geared for t5 users. 

I've actually agreed with you on some things.

You cherry pick things. Only a couple tubes cost that much. The rest are a few bucks a piece. 

Just like bashing on hyroot. You showed some old pics of his. Besides the cat hair he actually has good looking weed.

Can you show a pic of what your fire weed looks like?

I don't care to get in a personal argument. I would like to view this thread without the bs and personal attacks.


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## RM3 (Jun 4, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> You've lost your god damned mind man. GI e it up and get the fuck out of here. This thread is geared for t5 users.
> 
> I've actually agreed with you on some things.
> 
> ...


He is on a mission to get folks to stop listening to me


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## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

RM3 said:


> If only I was lying, or making shit up as I go LMAO
> 
> The reason folks listen is because they come and smoke the buds and they want their buds to be like my buds


Right.. they all want your God buds, so they "upgrade" to T5... And you think people hate you when they just think you're nuts.... Nope, I don't hate you.. I just think you're nuts.


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## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

You hold a weed convention named after yourself. You invite a bunch of people to a periodic event that's named after yourself.

It's no wonder so many of your cult members attack anyone who disagrees with their all knowing leader.


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## RM3 (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You hold a weed convention named after yourself. You invite a bunch of people to a periodic event that's named after yourself.
> 
> It's no wonder so many of your cult members attack anyone who disagrees with their all knowing leader.


And I've named a strain Kool-Aid so all my members can say they're doin the Kool-Aid


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## ttystikk (Jun 4, 2016)

RM3 said:


> And I've named a strain Kool-Aid so all my members can say they're doin the Kool-Aid


Need to get me a cut, I'm a true believer, lol


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## RM3 (Jun 4, 2016)

When I do add LED it's gonna blow minds


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## singledigit midgit (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You hold a weed convention named after yourself. You invite a bunch of people to a periodic event that's named after yourself.
> 
> It's no wonder so many of your cult members attack anyone who disagrees with their all knowing leader.


this post screams of butthurtyness,just sayin!!


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Right.. they all want your God buds, so they "upgrade" to T5... And you think people hate you when they just think you're nuts.... Nope, I don't hate you.. I just think you're nuts.


I don't think rm3 pushes t5. He actually tells people to do what floats their boat.

I followed what rm3 has to say about t5's. It works great for my space.

It grew this.
 
I don't claim t5 to be better. I will however tell people how to replicate what I've done. People have asked.


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## Chunky Stool (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You hold a weed convention named after yourself. You invite a bunch of people to a periodic event that's named after yourself.
> 
> It's no wonder so many of your cult members attack anyone who disagrees with their all knowing leader.


Jealousy is an ugly emotion...


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## Resinhound (Jun 4, 2016)

Honestly I don't understand all the animosity towards rm3.I don't agree with all his methods, so I don't use those in my personal grow. However I'm not a closed mind type of individual and will try some things for myself that make sense. I'll admit I've learned a few things from rm3. I think at some level everyone has some good info to pass along... The growing world would be a pretty blah place if we all used the exact same methods to grow the exact same plants. At least that's my take on it.

Church I've learned some good stuff from you as well, but this campaign of yours against rm3 just seems unreasonable at this point.


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## UncleBuck (Jun 4, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Can you show a pic of what your fire weed looks like?


 

https://www.rollitup.org/t/light-distance-at-professional-facilities.904704/#post-12471679


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 4, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> View attachment 3699710
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/light-distance-at-professional-facilities.904704/#post-12471679


That was directed at church.

Is that pic supposed to knock rm3?

I see some pure Sativa's in there. Those grow lanky and have spear heads.

I've seen and I'm sure rm3 has better pics.

I don't have nothing against either person.


Just don't see the point of what church is doing.

Its a t5 thread. We all know hid produces more. That's not the point.

I would like to discuss our t5's without all the childish bs.


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 4, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Honestly I don't understand all the animosity towards rm3.I don't agree with all his methods, so I don't use those in my personal grow. However I'm not a closed mind type of individual and will try some things for myself that make sense. I'll admit I've learned a few things from rm3. I think at some level everyone has some good info to pass along... The growing world would be a pretty blah place if we all used the exact same methods to grow the exact same plants. At least that's my take on it.
> 
> Church I've learned some good stuff from you as well, but this campaign of yours against rm3 just seems unreasonable at this point.


I agree.

What's up? You back around?


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## UncleBuck (Jun 4, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> That was directed at church.
> 
> Is that pic supposed to knock rm3?
> 
> ...


t5 is great for vegging newly rooted clones!


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## Resinhound (Jun 4, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I agree.
> 
> What's up? You back around?


Ya, RIU is like a foot fungus for me... It never really goes away... And pretty soon the itch starts up again...


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 4, 2016)

UncleBuck said:


> t5 is great for vegging newly rooted clones!


That statement is true. 

They also flower good to. That pic I showed of the single cola is 18 inches or better and hard as a rock.

Hard nugs are genetics and temps.

Is t5 good for production growing? No, unless using them for clones and mothers and such.

For a small personal grow they are great.


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## ttystikk (Jun 4, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> That statement is true.
> 
> They also flower good to. That pic I showed of the single cola is 18 inches or better and hard as a rock.
> 
> ...


Yep, I'm pretty sure I've said the very same things about @RM3 and the use of T5 lamps.


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## bravedave (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I take it you plan on upgrading your flowering lamps to actinic blue tubes?


Not "to" but with. My first year in my current room, I went beginning to end with the same MH. Improved yield every harvest, decent trichomes. Year 2 I switched in a new HPS 14 days into flower. Day 50 I switched back to the MH because of a noticable lack of trichomes in comparison to previous grows Since then I've added a 4bulb 4ft. T5 with blues and coral to the HPS and the trichs were brought up to the level I had come to expect from the straight MH. I have been running the same 2 strains into my third year. I know them. Please don't tell me I should believe you instead of my own eyes. Most other factors have been relatively static although I rule out almost nothing as being contributors because we are talking 2 years...not twenty. . 

My plants also do not smell much. The guy who got me started's grow reaks unbelievably...still same strains also. I attribute the lack of smell to my not adhering to the "dry them out, water, dry them out, water" mantra but keep my peat moist. AND being a minimalist with the nute qtys. Also have not been using bloom mutes. Aquagold is in my future, however.


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## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

I just digitized the spectrum of the GE LongLast 3000k 54W tube and found the LER to be roughly 361lm/W (374lm/W when truncated to PAR range)

The datasheet for the GE LongLast says tha the high output tubes have a luminous efficacy of source of 93lm/W.

http://www.gelighting.com/LightingWeb/emea/images/Linear_Flourescent_T5_LongLast_Lamps_Data_sheet_EN_tcm181-12831.pdf

That makes these tubes 25.8% efficient (*24.9% efficient in PAR range*)

A 600W HPS is about 35% efficient and has a way better spectrum for flowering than any T5.


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## bravedave (Jun 4, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I just digitized the spectrum of the GE LongLast 3000k 54W tube and found the LER to be roughly 361lm/W (374lm/W when truncated to PAR range)
> 
> The datasheet for the GE LongLast says tha the high output tubes have a luminous efficacy of source of 93lm/W.
> 
> ...


My HPS, like many it seems, is short on blues so i add some.


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## churchhaze (Jun 4, 2016)

bravedave said:


> My HPS, like many it seems, is short on blues so i add some.


That makes more sense than straight up growing with T5.


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## ttystikk (Jun 5, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> That makes more sense than straight up growing with T5.


Show me a better, more cost effective way to add UVB to my spectrum than T5. PLEASE. Until then, I'm kinda stuck with them.


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## Slipup420 (Jun 5, 2016)

Uncle Ben said:


> Another concept I toyed with many years ago is photomorphogenesis.
> 
> I now say "screw it all", drop a seed in a pot of soil, plant it outdoors where it's meant to be and not worry about it.
> 
> I'm a simple man.


Exactly i stopped indoor all together only thing i do indoor is cuttings and veg once they get to big i repeat and cull 
Undecided if i will post any pictures of big out door grow i own 600 hectares and do No Till on 10 acres ,, MJ grow 
I spread 18 tons with straw mixture of cattle manure and other supplements as per soil tests done 2 times a year 500 plants 2500 - 3000 pounds harvests consistent who the hell needs indoor 
Run on fully automatic on solar power SDI system 
I use Barley as cover crop which the cattle shit out naturally the sees  its a win win 
Nothing will ever compete to the SUN here is one of baby girls untouched 4 weeks temps have been cold this plant was out side 2 degrees and 2 " tall lol look at her she is staying in secluded are just out back


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## Slipup420 (Jun 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Show me a better, more cost effective way to add UVB to my spectrum than T5. PLEASE. Until then, I'm kinda stuck with them.


A AM radio is good enough shit i am giving out to much info


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## Slipup420 (Jun 5, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> That makes more sense than straight up growing with T5.


T5 grow 9 weeks into


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## ttystikk (Jun 5, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> View attachment 3700155
> T5 grow 9 weeks into View attachment 3700153 View attachment 3700154


That's one damn fine plant, regardless of what lighting tech it was grown under.


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## Resinhound (Jun 5, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> View attachment 3700155
> T5 grow 9 weeks into View attachment 3700153 View attachment 3700154


What size pot is that in? And is that soil? That's a bad as plant man.


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## bravedave (Jun 5, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> How many new growers didn't see the results of HPS because they instead bought expensive T5s?
> 
> And thanks for the luck with my "mission". If only others would intervene as well when you recommend 32 dollar T5 tubes to noobs. People would have already stopped listening to you.


Reading what @RM3 suggests has saved me money and soon will save me more in power usage. Sharing his experience is hardly forcing any noob to do anything. Sorry Church, Riddleme's even-keel approach to this forum is certainly more becoming than ...ummm...others.


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## Slab (Jun 5, 2016)

Thanks for the great reading guys,

Esp, the mid day depression or afternoon wilt as my Gramps would call it. Lazy ass mater plants sleeping in the afternoon 
This would occur regardless of temp, I summized it to be linked to saturation and radiation .
Also have experienced 30-40 plants laying down at the 11th hour of a 12/12.
What I found funny was reading about 11:13 light schedule championed by DJ short years later and the fact that is was a blueberry cross still makes me chuckle.

I have smoked alchapulco and Columbia gold, witnessed its golden color '( 77 -7. Also have seen the same color on Moroccan buds that underwent a two year cure and a haze cross bud I found from a grow 5 years earlier from the gardener that had the space before me.
the boiling of the roots is how the farmers get on the golden path is what I have read.
They douse the root ball in a vat of boiling water.
I have also read that it is genetic , yet all the photos I see of the strain in veg look mighty green to me.

How did you come across your method with boiling water Riddle?


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## RM3 (Jun 5, 2016)

Slab said:


> Thanks for the great reading guys,
> 
> 
> 
> How did you come across your method with boiling water Riddle?


hours and hours of research


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Show me a better, more cost effective way to add UVB to my spectrum than T5. PLEASE. Until then, I'm kinda stuck with them.


I'm going to throw some uv LEDs in one of my panels. Not cheap it's like $30 per 5 watt diode. But in theory they should last a while yeah? The question is how much uv is needed for a 3x3 and how long do I have to run them to make it worth paying so much for. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Slipup420 (Jun 5, 2016)

RM3 said:


> hours and hours of research


Hey did you know if you smoke crack and blow it on plants the plants metabolic rate increaes 1000 percent ??? i could show you a 2 week seedling that looks like 2 months old ....
As i get crack heads coming over and blowing on plants
Not only that THC levels increases 400 percent ,,, So i guess my new strain Super Ga Ga
is a Centurion cross of a Synthetic x hybrid cross crack cocaine x ??

Does this make sense to you ?

Would like to see scientific Data from you research ?? Does elevation cause anything , Do yuo have to pour the boiling water on north side or south side of the plant ??
West or maybe east side..
Now i have read some pretty fucked up things on what people do but boiling water tops it all Geez


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## ttystikk (Jun 5, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> I'm going to throw some uv LEDs in one of my panels. Not cheap it's like $30 per 5 watt diode. But in theory they should last a while yeah? The question is how much uv is needed for a 3x3 and how long do I have to run them to make it worth paying so much for.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I haven't seen good UV LED options. Do you have some in mind?


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I haven't seen good UV LED options. Do you have some in mind?


Digikey has a bunch uv diodes 1v, 3v and 5v diodes for $30-40. 

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/led-engin-inc/LZ1-10UV00-0000/1537-1032-ND/4976722
http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/led-engin-inc/LZ1-00UV00-0000/1537-1092-1-ND/4976782

Just a couple on digikey a search. Definitely have to do more research on which would be best. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ttystikk (Jun 5, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Digikey has a bunch uv diodes 1v, 3v and 5v diodes for $30-40.
> 
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/led-engin-inc/LZ1-10UV00-0000/1537-1032-ND/4976722
> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/led-engin-inc/LZ1-00UV00-0000/1537-1092-1-ND/4976782
> ...


Indeed. I'd like to see the spectrum graphs of these options, for starters. Thanks for this list!


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Indeed. I'd like to see the spectrum graphs of these options, for starters. Thanks for this list!


No problem. They're a bit pricey but if I could spend a couple hundred bucks on ir and uv diodes to add to my cobs, the benefits may be worth it. Worst case I can think of, negligible increase in potency/quality etc. Best case I have better quality flowers in less time with added yield. Lol. I've spent more money on worse ideas. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 5, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> I'm going to throw some uv LEDs in one of my panels. Not cheap it's like $30 per 5 watt diode. But in theory they should last a while yeah? The question is how much uv is needed for a 3x3 and how long do I have to run them to make it worth paying so much for.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Use the chart for the pure uv bulb from agromax. It gives you the amount of UV up to four foot away. It will give you a baseline and you can figure from there.

I run the one bulb the whole time my fixture is in from seed. Rm3 does the same.

Its new ground and we may not have an answer for you. You may have to be the guinea pig.


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Use the chart for the pure uv bulb from agromax. It gives you the amount of UV up to four foot away. It will give you a baseline and you can figure from there.
> 
> I run the one bulb the whole time my fixture is in from seed. Rm3 does the same.
> 
> Its new ground and we may not have an answer for you. You may have to be the guinea pig.


You have a link by chance? I appreciate the info. . 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 5, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Hey did you know if you smoke crack and blow it on plants the plants metabolic rate increaes 1000 percent ??? i could show you a 2 week seedling that looks like 2 months old ....
> As i get crack heads coming over and blowing on plants
> Not only that THC levels increases 400 percent ,,, So i guess my new strain Super Ga Ga
> is a Centurion cross of a Synthetic x hybrid cross crack cocaine x ??
> ...


How does a new member wonder in here and get involved in this silliness? 

I suspect a sock.

Can you show us a pic of some good looking weed?


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 5, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> You have a link by chance? I appreciate the info. .
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


http://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-uv-t5-bulb-4-foot
https://growagromax.com/products/4ft-pure-series/


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> http://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-uv-t5-bulb-4-foot
> https://growagromax.com/products/4ft-pure-series/


Thank you sir. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 5, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Thank you sir.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You're welcome.

Those links may not provide all the info needed but it gives you the micro watts cm2 at different distances.

I'm not sure how to go about it from there. Maybe take the info for the 5w led and see how many are needed.

I suspect it will still require some trial and error.


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> You're welcome.
> 
> Those links may not provide all the info needed but it gives you the micro watts cm2 at different distances.
> 
> ...


Agreed, I think the only way to actually figure out the benefits will be testing it. There isn't enough data on the uv diodes in general, much less whether they are effective in horticultural practice haha. 

It's nice to have somewhere to start though and those sheets give me a couple ideas. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

Fortunately it looks like a relatively small amount of it would be more than sufficient in a closed environment. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Doogan (Jun 5, 2016)

Experimenting with different light sources in veg and bloom. From T5 to DE. 

T5-During Veg, like many other growers, T5 lighting works great and can have slightly varied colors, (Blue/Red). Efficient and cheap. During bloom the T5 was fully capable go producing decent buds. The problem that was noticed was the buds were smaller overall and if the light was not positioned properly the plants would stretch causing other issues and deficiencies. 

MH-IMO they are more than necessary for veg growth. Using a hood and ballast for each MH light can be cumbersome whereas the T5 lighting fixtures almost all have the ballast built into the unit. Using a MH 600W in bloom as a supplementary light to 600W HPS did not do enough to warrant another run with MH.

MH/DE-Currently on the first test run of MHDE in Veg. 1000W AD/DE MH. 6' spread. Light is much more intense than any T5 or standard/CMH. Using on larger plants in a "pre-flower" set-up. Kevin Jodrey has talked about using high intensity lighting during vegetative growth for many reasons. Wether it is a DEMH, iGrow, induction, LEP... he says that the high intensity, full spectra, vegetative light allows the plants to built up the epidural, chloroplast layers and duraplasts. This helps with genetic drift and the overall vigor of the plant. The UVb light is essential to keep the plant at full vigor. Nothing can beat natural sunlight. 

LED- Currently running in Vegetative growth from seed to pre-flower. In the past used for Bloom. Kind L300, full. Worked as well as T5 in bloom but with better turpines. Using it now for veg growth for first full experimental run.

Standard/HPS- Have run 400W and 600W in vertical and top light systems. 600W was used in vert and produced large volumes and works well for limited plant numbers and to maximize your yield per plant. "Top light" with OG vert reflector 600W produced excellent results. Great for smaller rooms. 

DE HPS- By far the best used so far. All around higher yields, smells, flavor, resin... Used both ACDE and DE with 1000W. Both work great. Each has its pros and cons. The BOSS hoods are not air cooled and have a lower anchor point for shorter rooms (4" or so). With good A/C the room won't get that hot without AC hood. They also come without the glass, which by some standards can help with about 10% increase light intensity ~. Subsystem ACDE has a taller anchor point since the electrical input is on top. They are AC so heat intensity is reduced. A 3 foot distance is recommended but with some strains it can be too intense.


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## churchhaze (Jun 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Indeed. I'd like to see the spectrum graphs of these options, for starters. Thanks for this list!


Did you try looking at the datasheet?


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## Sativied (Jun 5, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I'd like to see the spectrum graphs of these options, for starters.


Hehe... spectrum graph of 365nm...

Anyway, @kmog33, those leds are UV A only. UV-A can help plants become stronger, synthesize more chlorophyll (and caretenoids...) but it's UV-B that increases the concentration of UV-B absorbing compounds. Which is where the quality potential lies:





kmog33 said:


> much less whether they are effective in horticultural practice haha.


There's actually quite a bit of recent research on the effect UV has on plants. Specifically the holes in the ozon layer motivated researchers to see how that may/will affect our food production and plants in nature in general. Adding -"cannabis" to google searches filters out most of the nonsense.

"Sensitivity to UV-B irradiation includes any morphological, physiological or biochemical change induced by UV-B. Signiﬁcant effects have been reported for about half of the 300 or so crop species and cultivars studied so far, but with some notable variation"
http://plantsinaction.science.uq.edu.au/edition1/?q=content/12-2-3-ultraviolet-radiation-and-plant-biology

"When plants are hit with ultraviolet light, this event triggers the plant's defense mechanisms. The plant then becomes more resistant to insect attacks as it releases 15 defense proteins. The ultraviolet light also affects message pathways that impact plant development, growth and metabolism, according to Washington State University. The ultraviolet light tricks the plant into thinking that it is wounded, which occurs when the plant is being feed on by insects."
http://www.gardenguides.com/132133-plants-ultraviolet-light.html

"Like most pharmacologically-active secondary metabolites of plants, THC in _Cannabis_ is assumed to be involved in self-defense"

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1023/A:1020314706567
The effect of solar UV-B radiation on terpenes and biomass production in _Grindelia chiloensis_ (Asteraceae)
"Exposure to UV-B radiation reduced whole plant biomass, plant height and leaf area, and increased leaf thickness and resin accumulation in _Grindelia chiloensis_. "

There's enough research to get a pretty good idea of the effects of UVA and UVB, and some lab tests that confirmed it for cannabis too. The hardest part is probably to find a good balance. I got some UVA from my mh but not UVB. It does results in some of the effects that can be contributed to UVA (but also blue...), but doesn't appear to increase frost level, probably from lacking the uvb.


----------



## Andrew2112 (Jun 5, 2016)

What brand of high ouput T5 is good? Looking to use HO aquarium lights with it.


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Hehe... spectrum graph of 365nm...
> 
> Anyway, @kmog33, those leds are UV A only. UV-A can help plants become stronger, synthesize more chlorophyll (and caretenoids...) but it's UV-B that increases the concentration of UV-B absorbing compounds. Which is where the quality potential lies:
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info. I wasn't speaking of the effect of uv in practice, I was referring specifically to whether the diodes I found will be worthwhile in a horticultural setting. 

The spectrum graph of a 365nm mono I also thought was a funny sentiment. I have to keep looking then for some uv b diodes as well then. Maybe 12-15 watts of uv a and 12-15 watts of uvb In a 3x3 should be enough to at least test effects (from the data whitebb provided) in my environment. 


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## Sativied (Jun 5, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Thanks for the info. I wasn't speaking of the effect of uv in practice, I was referring specifically to whether the diodes I found will be worthwhile in a horticultural setting.


Ah I see... I know some flower greenhouses here in NL do use UV to intensify colors and others to reduce pesticide (I think it was UVC against botrytis/budrot) and that use of UV is referenced in led studies but haven't see those or other uv leds specified yet, I think it's still tubes in practice.

I think investing in UVB instead of UVA (hardens plants basically) can be much more effective in terms of results, final product.

Another good article:
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1002/opph.201400048/asset/34_ftp.pdf

It is specifically low levels of UVB that can change and increase production of secondary metabolites, which include cannabinoids, flavonoids and terpenes. In a study of the uni of Wageningen they suggest the increase in secondary metabolites can be useful for growing "herbs".

Introduction to secondary metabolites in cannabis:
https://openaccess.leidenuniv.nl/bitstream/handle/1887/13206/01.pdf

Too high levels can have the opposite effect so I think starting with that 12-15 uvb on 3x3 is not a bad idea. Maybe even put it on a separate timer, or pulses...


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Ah I see... I know some flower greenhouses here in NL do use UV to intensify colors and others to reduce pesticide (I think it was UVC against botrytis/budrot) and that use of UV is referenced in led studies but haven't see those or other uv leds specified yet, I think it's still tubes in practice.
> 
> I think investing in UVB instead of UVA (hardens plants basically) can be much more effective in terms of results, final product.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the links. I'm going to have to go over all of this before i can intelligently respond lol. But I think I get the gist of it. I think I'll also look into summer daylight cycles in regards to uv intensity/time of day/etc. 

Am I misunderstanding that while small amounts of uvb are beneficial and harden the plant, going overboard by a small margin causes more detrimental effects and reduces the benefits it does provide. So it's better to be low than high when adding uv spectra, and it doesn't seem to take much at all in a small environment to give all the perks uv in general is able to anyway. 


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## ttystikk (Jun 5, 2016)

Doogan said:


> Experimenting with different light sources in veg and bloom. From T5 to DE.
> 
> T5-During Veg, like many other growers, T5 lighting works great and can have slightly varied colors, (Blue/Red). Efficient and cheap. During bloom the T5 was fully capable go producing decent buds. The problem that was noticed was the buds were smaller overall and if the light was not positioned properly the plants would stretch causing other issues and deficiencies.
> 
> ...


I got an experiment for you; match watts between your DE HPS setup and a top quality COB LED array and watch your favorite light get stomped in quality and yield. 

I did and even my fuck ups are amazing, lol Seriously.


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## Sativied (Jun 5, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Am I misunderstanding that while small amounts of uvb are beneficial and harden the plant, going overboard by a small margin causes more detrimental effects and reduces the benefits it does provide.


Some amount of uvb can have benefits for cannabinoid and terpene production.
Some amount of uva can harden the plant (and several other effects varying per plant species.

But yes, in both cases, uva and uvb, overdoing it will have the very opposite and detrimental effects. You can litterally kill the plants if you over do it. 

"*Low* levels of UV-B exposure initiate signaling through UVR8 and induce secondary metabolite genes involved in protection against UV while *higher dosages are very detrimental* to plants."
From UV-Induced Cell Death in Plants:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3565337/

The emphasis is always on "low" level can help. You push it a little to protect itself better (which is what the trichs partly do), bring out the best phenotype, without taking it to a point where it would actually need or fail to protect itself. Basically signal it with just enough.


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## kmog33 (Jun 5, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Some amount of uvb can have benefits for cannabinoid and terpene production.
> Some amount of uva can harden the plant (and several other effects varying per plant species.
> 
> But yes, in both cases, uva and uvb, overdoing it will have the very opposite and detrimental effects. You can litterally kill the plants if you over do it.
> ...


Thanks. [emoji1303]


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Hey did you know if you smoke crack and blow it on plants the plants metabolic rate increaes 1000 percent ??? i could show you a 2 week seedling that looks like 2 months old ....
> As i get crack heads coming over and blowing on plants
> Not only that THC levels increases 400 percent ,,, So i guess my new strain Super Ga Ga
> is a Centurion cross of a Synthetic x hybrid cross crack cocaine x ??
> ...


If it works and it's stupid, it's not stupid anymore.


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## Doogan (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I got an experiment for you; match watts between your DE HPS setup and a top quality COB LED array and watch your favorite light get stomped in quality and yield.
> 
> I did and even my fuck ups are amazing, lol Seriously.


Ya I would like to try using some COB lights for a run. They are actually not to much more expensive than a hood/ballast/bulb HPSDE. I will have to look into it more. Any recommendations? Heat issues, life span...Thanks!


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## Slipup420 (Jun 6, 2016)

Sativied said:


> Some amount of uvb can have benefits for cannabinoid and terpene production.
> Some amount of uva can harden the plant (and several other effects varying per plant species.
> 
> But yes, in both cases, uva and uvb, overdoing it will have the very opposite and detrimental effects. You can litterally kill the plants if you over do it.
> ...


Or don't even bother with it for the little percentage of increase, If any.?????
In the grand scheme of things


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 6, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I take it you plan on upgrading your flowering lamps to actinic blue tubes?



c'mon now, I didn't say anything about lights.. contrary to the thread title.
I was merely observing.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

has anyone smoked killer only to find out it was grown with 40 watt Fluro shop lights?

Like to see some fancy graphs explaining that one


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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> has anyone smoked killer only to find out it was grown with 40 watt Fluro shop lights?
> 
> Like to see some fancy graphs explaining that one


I grew that. You could tell because it was frosty- but fluffy too.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I grew that. You could tell because it was frosty- but fluffy too.


Ah yes, but it gave me Garfield eyes and a shit eating grin. The price was right also 

what interests me what little is needed for her to do her thing.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

The root zone temps were mentioned earlier in the thread.

Does that have any effect on the oxygen available in the water that's in the soil?


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## Slipup420 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab you got to make sure that when watering your plants either ice cold water or boiling water for the best flavor lol


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Slab you got to make sure that when watering your plants either ice cold water or boiling water for the best flavor lol


No way, I am piqued about getting the root zone down to 65 though.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Slab you got to make sure that when watering your plants either ice cold water or boiling water for the best flavor lol


I am not off the fence in regards to it being a finishing method ( boiling water) and that can and as reported does effect curing process.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> The root zone temps were mentioned earlier in the thread.
> 
> Does that have any effect on the oxygen available in the water that's in the soil?


Yes in the water, not in the soil. If you were in dwc there would be a bigger effect, by in soil there is generally enough oxygen in the air. Lol. High Roots temps will cause problems that don't have to do with the amount of oxygen available in your water/available to be absorbed by your roots at all, much more so than effecting the amount of oxygen in the water itself.


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## Sativied (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Or don't even bother with it for the little percentage of increase, If any.?????
> In the grand scheme of things


The main "bother" is the cost of the leds at the moment, so far the uvb leds I found are very expensive. Once you can do it for a few hundred bucks and use it for many years it becomes a more reasonable option.

As for little percentage, for example, Kite high (rip) posted some test results in these forums once showing a 2% high thc level. That may seem like a small percentage but that percentage is of the total bud, not of the amount of thc. Going from 20% to 22% thc is a 10% increase in total amounts of thc, which is not so little anymore, especially if you're into rosin/bho/hash. I agree the majority of growers should not bother with it, not yet anyway, but opposed to for example expensive boosters and other snake oils it is a lot more realistic to try. And for commercial growers who need to have their shit tested before selling to a shop or dispensary it may give them an edge.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

Thanks for the reply, not a concern for me having root zone to hot. Room never goes above 85.

More interested in enrichment and knowing if the roots absorb oxygen from the water in soil. Pretty sure it does.

Wanted to add 65 degrees replicates outdoor subterranean root zone temps, 
We call it hells ice box


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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> No way, I am piqued about getting the root zone down to 65 though.


I'd suggest water around 75F for good metabolism. Root oxygenation is best influenced by using substrates that drain well, thereby pulling fresh air in as they do.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

65 in hydro. But listen to tystick for your soil. 


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> 65 in hydro. But listen to tystick for your soil.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I use 50 % perlite and stategically placed lava rocks in my pots.
300% improvement in yeild and flavor profile improvements I am not at liberty to disclose.

Coincidently the same temperature as the ground. 65.

I am far beyond novice guys, so please keep that in mind when lending a hand XD


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> I use 50 % perlite and stategically placed lava rocks in my pots.
> 300% improvement in yeild and flavor profile improvements I am not at liberty to disclose.
> 
> Coincidently the same temperature as the ground. 65.
> ...


We're just answering the questions you asked lol. If you didn't need any help/info, you shouldn't have asked in the first place. 


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> We're just answering the questions you asked lol. If you didn't need any help/info, you shouldn't have asked in the first place.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


My question was yes or no and a topic for discussion.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> My question was yes or no and a topic for discussion.





Slab said:


> The root zone temps were mentioned earlier in the thread.
> 
> Does that have any effect on the oxygen available in the water that's in the soil?





kmog33 said:


> Yes in the water, not in the soil. If you were in dwc there would be a bigger effect, by in soil there is generally enough oxygen in the air. Lol. High Roots temps will cause problems that don't have to do with the amount of oxygen available in your water/available to be absorbed by your roots at all, much more so than effecting the amount of oxygen in the water itself.





Slab said:


> Thanks for the reply, not a concern for me having root zone to hot. Room never goes above 85.
> 
> More interested in enrichment and knowing if the roots absorb oxygen from the water in soil. Pretty sure it does.
> 
> ...





ttystikk said:


> I'd suggest water around 75F for good metabolism. Root oxygenation is best influenced by using substrates that drain well, thereby pulling fresh air in as they do.





kmog33 said:


> 65 in hydro. But listen to tystick for your soil.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Here are the responses in answer to your initial question and follow ups. 

In the end, you state you're not a novice and didn't need any of the info you yourself asked about.

Not to be a dick, but what is the point of asking a question and then disregarding the answers because you obviously already know better? As the ground is 65 in one climate, that must be the right way to go with all plants in all environments yeah? 

Here's some links to how water temps affect nutrient uptake etc, so you can read about it as your inquisition seems to be ineffective with the responses you've received. 

http://lib.dr.iastate.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=11951&context=rtd

http://maximumyield.com/blog/2012/08/01/water-and-nutrient-uptake-by-roots/

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02374326


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> We know that cannabis thrives outdoors where it's root zone is 65 degrees.
> The temp of the water is the same.


Maybe that should be another thread topic. I'm here in this thread to talk about light not root temp.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Maybe that should be another thread topic. I'm here in this thread to talk about light not root temp.


Understood, I read it here from the OP and broached to get understanding and confirmation for his reasons. That is not hijacking. Can't help if others picked up the ball and ran.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Here are the responses in answer to your initial question and follow ups.
> 
> In the end, you state you're not a novice and didn't need any of the info you yourself asked about.
> 
> ...


I am sure it was not your intention to be insulting to me offering me basic information that I did not request of you. And I find your sarcasm annoying and impressive at the same time. If you are going to chime in , offer me more than common knowledge is what I asked. 
That did not deter you from again offering me basic information. You can NOT relay Riddles personal reasons for his root zone temp. Not sure why you did in the first place other than the enjoyment of sharing knowledge which I thank you for. Just asked for it to be above the basics it perhaps to cheeky of a way for you.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Maybe that should be another thread topic. I'm here in this thread to talk about light not root temp.


I own 430 watter very rare , turn it on makes you feel like your in an old timey topless bar.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> I am sure it was not your intention to be insulting to me offering me basic information that I did not request of you. And I find your sarcasm annoying and impressive at the same time. If you are going to chime in , offer me more than common knowledge is what I asked.
> That did not deter you from again offering me basic information. You can NOT relay Riddles personal reasons for his root zone temp. Not sure why you did in the first place other than the enjoyment of sharing knowledge which I thank you for. Just asked for it to be above the basics it perhaps to cheeky of a way for you.


Then the issue may have been more with your question than the answers you got. As a couple of us responded the same way. The fact that you asked for basic info (a yes or no question) and then expected to be given a science lecture on root temps/water and the effects there is baffling. But I realized that you wanted to actually learn something so I linked you to where you can read about it as none of your posts were on the topic of the thread. 

Then, you go blaming the two guys that responded to your questions (that were not very specific) to help you out when you got called out for it. 

1. Ask questions that specify what you actually want to know, not a yes or no question you expect a substantial answer out of. 

2. Don't act like you know what you're talking about saying you're experienced, when the questions you asked in the first place as well as your ability to take the responses was seemingly insufficient. 

3. Most of my posts have not been sarcastic, I just have a habit of calling out miscommunication based on poor choice of given info in the first place. 

Assess what you want from the situation and choose there to ask about. 

Don't come in asking if a effects b, and expect to get detailed descriptions of X,y and z. It just doesn't make sense. 

I didn't respond to your post blaming ty and I for derailing the thread when we answered your posts because it just pushes further off topic, but don't quote me and keep the thread off topic because you asked the wrong question, and didn't like the legitimate answers you got to the questions you did, in fact, ask. 




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## Doogan (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> No way, I am piqued about getting the root zone down to 65 though.


Temperatures above 30C (86F), there was an uncoupling between the instantaneous respiration rate and bacterial and fungal activity. At these high temperatures, the respiration rate closely followed the Arrhenius temperature relationship. {as high as 45C (113F) Between 65-76 degrees F. At this range the conditions are optimal for the various chemical processes. Lower temperatures will stunt the root growth while higher temps dehydrate the roots and may *cook* them.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

So are you not reading my post because it's long and a waste of time or...?

I already quoted your posts and the responses to them, you can read back a few posts if you want, but this is a waste of time. 

Considering what you said you were going to do vs the 4 quotes I've gotten from you now regarding my last post, I'm assuming you're exactly the "beating a dead horse" type that you said you were hoping I was not. 

If you want me to go through your posts again and break them down, I can. But it's not going to get better from your sides perspective and at this point your inability to comprehend/articulate your own questions intelligently is just making you upset (seems like anyway) and pushing the thread further off topic. 


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> So are you not reading my post because it's long and a waste of time or...?
> 
> I already quoted your posts and the responses to them, you can read back a few posts if you want, but this is a waste of time.
> 
> ...


i believe you to be a bit of nutter


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> i believe you to be a bit of nutter


Hey, at least I articulate my questions in a way that gets across the info I'm looking for. 

I also don't blame other people for derailing a thread when I get called out for it or say I'm not going to read someone's comment to me and precede to quote it 5 times. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Resinhound (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Hey, at least I articulate my questions in a way that gets across the info I'm looking for.
> 
> I also don't blame other people for derailing a thread when I get called out for it or say I'm not going to read someone's comment to me and precede to quote it 5 times.
> 
> ...


Hey man he's not a novice, stop answering his questions... He doesn't need your simple answers man. 

We need to get Steven Hawkening in here to answer this shiz...


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Hey, at least I articulate my questions in a way that gets across the info I'm looking for.
> 
> I also don't blame other people for derailing a thread when I get called out for it or say I'm not going to read someone's comment to me and precede to quote it 5 times.
> 
> ...


That is the impression you get and I am not known as an idiot to most.

You blurting out the correct temp for hydro gives me a good chuckle now. 

My " question" related to riddles experience, you derailed that by offering me info I didn't need or ask for.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Hey man he's not a novice, stop answering his questions... He doesn't need your simple answers man.
> 
> We need to get Steven Hawkening in here to answer this shiz...


There's only so many times I can break down what's wrong with the same point. Lol. 

Am I missing something? Did he not ask a yes or no question about water and root temps?


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Hey man he's not a novice, stop answering his questions... He doesn't need your simple answers man.
> 
> We need to get Steven Hawkening in here to answer this shiz...


Yeah bring on that cyber bullying and peer pecking. You want some numbers for some my exes?


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> There's only so many times I can break down what's wrong with the same point. Lol.
> 
> Am I missing something? Did he not ask a yes or no question about water and root temps?
> 
> ...


Am


kmog33 said:


> There's only so many times I can break down what's wrong with the same point. Lol.
> 
> Am I missing something? Did he not ask a yes or no question about water and root temps?
> 
> ...


Slab said: ↑


Does that have any effect on the oxygen available in the water that's in the soil?
That was my question you trolling parrot


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> That is the impression you get and I am not known as an idiot to most.
> 
> You blurting out the correct temp for hydro gives me a good chuckle now.
> 
> My " question" related to riddles experience, you derailed that by offering me info I didn't need or ask for.


You may know be "known" to be an idiot. But you definitely look like one ATM. 


Slab said:


> The root zone temps were mentioned earlier in the thread.
> 
> Does that have any effect on the oxygen available in the water that's in the soil?


is this not a yes or no question? Is there any more asked here then whether or not a affects b?


kmog33 said:


> Yes in the water, not in the soil. If you were in dwc there would be a bigger effect, by in soil there is generally enough oxygen in the air. Lol. High Roots temps will cause problems that don't have to do with the amount of oxygen available in your water/available to be absorbed by your roots at all, much more so than effecting the amount of oxygen in the water itself.


Does this response not only answer your question with a yes and no, but go on to explain a bit about the situation and how the effects vary in different scenarios...?


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

That's not even going into the fact that ty continued to Ellaborate.

You should maybe jut drop it. 


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> You may know be "known" to be an idiot. But you definitely look like one ATM.
> is this not a yes or no question? Is there any more asked here then whether or not a affects b?
> 
> Does this response not only answer your question with a yes and no, but go on to explain a bit about the situation and how the effects vary in different scenarios...?
> ...


You could not possibly answer riddles thought and findings in keeping his root zone at 65. Thanks for trying.


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> That's not even going into the fact that ty continued to Ellaborate.
> 
> You should maybe jut drop it.
> 
> ...


Ty also generously gave me information that I did not ask, but the blurting of the correct temps for hydro tho , just makes me think you were in savant mode


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> You could not possibly answer riddles thought and findings in keeping his root zone at 65. Thanks for trying.


You didn't ask about that, it was your grasping at actually coming out on top in this argument when you asked a yes or no question. You prove my point when you go ad hominem and attack me instead of responding to the questions in the post. 

If you go back to the links I posted for you though, you can find any information you could possibly be looking for regarding root zone Temps. 


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Slab said:


> Ty also generously gave me information that I did not ask, but the blurting of the correct temps for hydro tho , just makes me think you were in savant mode


I didnt just blurt out the correct temps. And have now quoted my original response to your yes or no question 2 times and you still are unable to comprehend what you are reading. My second response, the one you keep takin about, with the 65 for hydro was in response to you talking about 65 in soil root temps.

Ty and I both gave you the info you asked for. You just did not articulate what you actually wanted to know in an intelligent manner, so people responded to the question you asked. Rather than what you intended to ask. 


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 6, 2016)

Its no matter guys.

We can let it go can't we? 

Kmog and resin are both good people that have helped a number of people.

I suspect slab is an alright person to because of the rare light joke.

If we can let's quash this as it only derails this thread further.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Its no matter guys.
> 
> We can let it go can't we?
> 
> ...


Sorry, I was at work at the studio all day and haven't smoked yet/slept like shit last night. It's probably my fault for being a stubborn ass and I will stop now. Brb, bong time. 


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## Slab (Jun 6, 2016)

^^ we learning to get along side by side


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Sorry, I was at work at the studio all day and haven't smoked yet/slept like shit last night. It's probably my fault for being a stubborn ass and I will stop now. Brb, bong time.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I've done the same.

I spent a whole day and part of the next just to prove my point to a person on here one time.

Literally a whole day back and forth. Like 40 pages in one day. 

Lol. I can be stubborn at times.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I've done the same.
> 
> I spent a whole day and part of the next just to prove my point to a person on here one time.
> 
> ...


Lol I feel that. Go back the next day on the thread and be like, did I write all that shit?








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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

Since this IS a light thread, I'd like to share that I just took possession of a Mars Hydro 1600 LED light, a big fucker. Ok, it was dropped into my lap, lol 

It pulls 550W from the wall in veg mode and right now I have it over my rooters table, about 24" above the table. The short babies are fine, but the ones hitting 8" tall are beginning to look deficient; leaves getting a bit pale, very purple stems, leaves growing in a sort of droop. They're plenty turgid, just not sticking straight out. All other plants using the same batch of nutes from the same reservoir look great. 

I've seen light bleaching before, there aren't any dead spots on these. 

Best I can guess is mag or sulphur, but only when under the blurple gaze of the new light. 

Thoughts?


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## dbkick (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Since this IS a light thread, I'd like to share that I just took possession of a Mars Hydro 1600 LED light, a big fucker. Ok, it was dropped into my lap, lol
> 
> It pulls 550W from the wall in veg mode and right now I have it over my rooters table, about 24" above the table. The short babies are fine, but the ones hitting 8" tall are beginning to look deficient; leaves getting a bit pale, very purple stems, leaves growing in a sort of droop. They're plenty turgid, just not sticking straight out. All other plants using the same batch of nutes from the same reservoir look great.
> 
> ...


Realstyles that fucker.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Since this IS a light thread, I'd like to share that I just took possession of a Mars Hydro 1600 LED light, a big fucker. Ok, it was dropped into my lap, lol
> 
> It pulls 550W from the wall in veg mode and right now I have it over my rooters table, about 24" above the table. The short babies are fine, but the ones hitting 8" tall are beginning to look deficient; leaves getting a bit pale, very purple stems, leaves growing in a sort of droop. They're plenty turgid, just not sticking straight out. All other plants using the same batch of nutes from the same reservoir look great.
> 
> ...


When I'm running under monos, my plants tend to like a lot more calmag than I use under hps or cobs. 


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## Just Let Me Be Faded (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> View attachment 3700155
> T5 grow 9 weeks into View attachment 3700153 View attachment 3700154


B E A utiful


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## Slipup420 (Jun 6, 2016)

Obviously with light maybe plants are needing more with def spectrums plants are usng more of N possibly ???


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## a mongo frog (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Obviously with light maybe plants are needing more with def spectrums plants are usng more of N possibly ???


Thats what @kmog33 i think was saying. Pretty interesting stuff.


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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> When I'm running under monos, my plants tend to like a lot more calmag than I use under hps or cobs.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Aha- mag deficiency is on the list of usual suspects. A little extra epsom salt is easy enough to toss in there. 

I'll give it a shot and see how they do. 

As far as the @REALSTYLES treatment goes, it's still working so I'll spare it the ttystikk's silver hammer treatment- at least, for now...


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Plants have slightly different needs under different spectrum in my experience. It's always fun to learn new lights/plants. 


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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Obviously with light maybe plants are needing more with def spectrums plants are usng more of N possibly ???


They're getting a whole lot more light but they don't seem N or Ca deficient, therefore no more calcium nitrate is called for.


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Since this IS a light thread, I'd like to share that I just took possession of a Mars Hydro 1600 LED light, a big fucker. Ok, it was dropped into my lap, lol
> 
> It pulls 550W from the wall in veg mode and right now I have it over my rooters table, about 24" above the table. The short babies are fine, but the ones hitting 8" tall are beginning to look deficient; leaves getting a bit pale, very purple stems, leaves growing in a sort of droop. They're plenty turgid, just not sticking straight out. All other plants using the same batch of nutes from the same reservoir look great.
> 
> ...


I reckon people have to up the cal/mag when using blurple.

I notice with the purepar t5 bulb, blurple looking, I ha e to give a dose of Epsom every so often.


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Aha- mag deficiency is on the list of usual suspects. A little extra epsom salt is easy enough to toss in there.
> 
> I'll give it a shot and see how they do.
> 
> As far as the @REALSTYLES treatment goes, it's still working so I'll spare it the ttystikk's silver hammer treatment- at least, for now...


Do the mod where they take the monos out and put cobs in.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I reckon people have to up the cal/mag when using blurple.
> 
> I notice with the purepar t5 bulb, blurple looking, I ha e to give a dose of Epsom every so often.


This has been my experience with mono panels. [emoji1305]


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> This has been my experience with mono panels. [emoji1305]
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I wonder why.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I wonder why.


I'm sure they photosynthesize a bit more or less efficiently, like process chlorophyll a and b at different rates under different spectral intensity. Causing the plants to have different nutritional needs.

Like a professional athlete that needs 5000+ calories a day to maintain weight vs sticking 5000 calories in a regular person. Regular joe would be a regular fatty in not time lol. But due to the high intensity workouts the professional athlete would be unhealthy with less. 

This is mildly speculative on my part I do admit. 





I may be a little stoned. 


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## Resinhound (Jun 6, 2016)

Under old style blurple lights my plants were mag hungry.

I run monos now but don't seem to have that problem under white/red monos for some reason. My suspicion is the unnatural spectrum that's created with cheap blurples.

I do know mag is heavily consumed on leaves exposed to light


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Under old style blurple lights my plants were mag hungry.
> 
> I run monos now but don't seem to have that problem under white/red monos for some reason. My suspicion is the unnatural spectrum that's created with cheap blurples.
> 
> I do know mag is heavily consumed on leaves exposed to light


White technically aren't monos, but it honestly feel like the ones we are taking about should be considered monos. lol. 

But yeah, a lot of the higher quality/better balanced spectrum mono panels/panels with white and red tend to act more like warm whites. They tend to look more pink than purple as well as far as the light they put off. I think it has to do with an intensity balance thing. That causes the plants to use different nutrients at different rates, whereas a more balanced spectrum the plants tend to take more up at at more similar rate. 


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## Resinhound (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> White technically aren't monos, but it honestly feel like the ones we are taking about should be considered monos. lol.
> 
> But yeah, a lot of the higher quality/better balanced spectrum mono panels/panels with white and red tend to act more like warm whites. They tend to look more pink than purple as well as far as the light they put off. I think it has to do with an intensity balance thing. That causes the plants to use different nutrients at different rates, whereas a more balanced spectrum the plants tend to take more up at at more similar rate.
> 
> ...


Makes sense... Balanced spectrum, balanced nutrient conversion. Plants are biomechanical machines Imo. This is akin to running an engine in proper timing... As i see it.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Makes sense... Balanced spectrum, balanced nutrient conversion. Plants are biomechanical machines Imo. This is akin to running an engine in proper the timing... As i see it.


Yeah. We all fight with our spectrums in our own way. Some are easier to deal with than others. The blurple mono panels definitely have their benefits. The imbalance Ime means way faster uptake of some micro/macro nutrients and I have had some epically terpy buds from under my blurple panels. We just learn to adapt and progress or our plants are ugly lol. 


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## REALSTYLES (Jun 6, 2016)

I've gone organic with my white power cobs and my plants look better than ever with no mag decencies I'm done with Cyco nutrients which work bad ass but organic living soil kicks ass. No ph for me just an occasional tea or fish fertilizer. I'm just using up what I have left and I'll just re-amend my soil. I can't wait to try out my CXA/2 Studio 5700k top bin it's suppose to be 93 CRI.


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## Resinhound (Jun 6, 2016)

REALSTYLES said:


> I've gone organic with my white power cobs and my plants look better than ever with no mag decencies I'm done with Cyco nutrients which work bad ass but organic living soil kicks ass. No ph for me just an occasional tea or fish fertilizer. I'm just using up what I have left and I'll just re-amend my soil. I can't wait to try out my CXA/2 Studio 5700k top bin it's suppose to be 93 CRI.


What is it exactly you are advertising? Just curious.


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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Do the mod where they take the monos out and put cobs in.


Lol I've already got plenty of COB LED powered modules in service. 

It's educational for me to work with the older tech, so I can understand and discuss the differences knowledgeably.


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## Resinhound (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Lol I've already got plenty of COB LED powered modules in service.
> 
> It's educational for me to work with the older tech, so I can understand and discuss the differences knowledgeably.


Damn your Vulcan logic.... Damn it to hell


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Lol I've already got plenty of COB LED powered modules in service.
> 
> It's educational for me to work with the older tech, so I can understand and discuss the differences knowledgeably.


I would put my 120 watt blurple in veg against 120 watts of cobs and I bet the blurple would give it a run for its money. They tend to veg fantastic. Flowering can go either way. 


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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

REALSTYLES said:


> I've gone organic with my white power cobs and my plants look better than ever with no mag decencies I'm done with Cyco nutrients which work bad ass but organic living soil kicks ass. No ph for me just an occasional tea or fish fertilizer. I'm just using up what I have left and I'll just re-amend my soil. I can't wait to try out my CXA/2 Studio 5700k top bin it's suppose to be 93 CRI.


Indeed, I've seen your grows with organic soils and I'm very impressed!


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## ttystikk (Jun 6, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> I would put my 120 watt blurple in veg against 120 watts of cobs and I bet the blurple would give it a run for its money. They tend to veg fantastic. Flowering can go either way.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


In another part of the same veg space, I have two COB LED modules; each runs 4 CXB3590 3500k CD BIN at 54W each, for 225W. That 450W mops the floor with the 550W of the Mars Hydro LED in veg mode. It's not even close. Everyone who looks at them side by side- because they are- agrees. 

It's just fun to play with the unit.


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## kmog33 (Jun 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> In another part of the same veg space, I have two COB LED modules; each runs 4 CXB3590 3500k CD BIN at 54W each, for 225W. That 450W mops the floor with the 550W of the Mars Hydro LED in veg mode. It's not even close. Everyone who looks at them side by side- because they are- agrees.
> 
> It's just fun to play with the unit.


Yeah mines a little panel lol. Does a 2x2 fairly well though. I'd be interested to see it against 100 watts of cobs. It's a 60x5 watt unit. Actual draw ~120 lol. 


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## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Yeah mines a little panel lol. Does a 2x2 fairly well though. I'd be interested to see it against 100 watts of cobs. It's a 60x5 watt unit. Actual draw ~120 lol.


I have a small rectangular LED with very similar chips to the Mars Hydro light, only it pulls about 140W. It's over my clone table.


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## kmog33 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I have a small rectangular LED with very similar chips to the Mars Hydro light, only it pulls about 140W. It's over my clone table.


Mines a square.







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## bravedave (Jun 7, 2016)

Turning into another LED backpatters thread where you get more pics of hardware than product?

Can we go back to snarky replies about misinterpreted posts?


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Turning into another LED backpatters thread where you get more pics of hardware than product?
> 
> Can we go back to snarky replies about misinterpreted posts?


If I had the extra funds, I'd show em an LED grow LOL


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

On a lighter note, I added the agromax pure UV bulbs yesterday


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## bravedave (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> If I had the extra funds, I'd show em an LED grow LOL


A smart company should outfit you and then take credit for answering with a Riddle. I'd love one for my summer grow. Something equal to my 600.


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## bravedave (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> On a lighter note, I added the agromax pure UV bulbs yesterday


Have you decided on timing and distance?


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Have you decided on timing and distance?


Not yet, but they are def hot


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Lol I've already got plenty of COB LED powered modules in service.
> 
> It's educational for me to work with the older tech, so I can understand and discuss the differences knowledgeably.


Makes sense.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Not yet, but they are def hot


Yes they are already burned my plants once and made my T5 too hot to use in my tent even at the max height lol........... IMHO these bulbs are better suited to more open spaces and not tents...........


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Yes they are already burned my plants once and made my T5 too hot to use in my tent even at the max height lol........... IMHO these bulbs are better suited to more open spaces and not tents...........


To be fair though you are just running your heat in a circle and hid would be even hotter.

You have to get that heat outside the house somehow.


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Once you do that you can run it at a out 10 inches.


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Yes they are already burned my plants once and made my T5 too hot to use in my tent even at the max height lol........... IMHO these bulbs are better suited to more open spaces and not tents...........


I agree, these bulbs are not for noob's fo sur


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## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I agree, these bulbs are not for noob's fo sur


Is it the operating temperature of the lamp, or the intensity of the UV output that's burning plants?


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## Resinhound (Jun 7, 2016)

Well i cant speak for the agromax bulbs themselves, but I can say my plants have responded positively to the addition of 15k blue, I noticed and big increase of trichome coverage within days after adding it. And the finished product seemed better as well. I'm definitely going to keep using it.


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Is it the operating temperature of the lamp, or the intensity of the UV output that's burning plants?


tis the UV, it is just like bein in the sun, you can def feel it on your skin, even several feet away


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Is it the operating temperature of the lamp, or the intensity of the UV output that's burning plants?





RM3 said:


> I agree, these bulbs are not for noob's fo sur


 He is blowing the heat into the room with the tent and trying to cool it with an ac.

I advised that the heat has to be exhausted out of the house.

I did the same thing and once I exhausted outside my cab dropped by ten degrees.

Even with cool temps I have to be careful. Its not heat burn but radiant burn?


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## bravedave (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> tis the UV, it is just like bein in the sun, you can def feel it on your skin, even several feet away


Something I just read in checking out that bulb was it suggested a 3' distance and only running it for 15 minutes every hour for the first 4 hours lights are on. A starting point at least.


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## Doogan (Jun 7, 2016)

Depending on maturity of the plant, intensity can stunt or burn the plant. The duraplast, chloroplast, and epidural layers need to be developed to handle more intense light. T5 is the beginner to pro light typically used for young plants like, seedling and cuts. Other than that the strain could be sensitive to the intensity. MrNice guy is said to grow better in a shady environment. Some growers perpetual harvest plants throughout the summer. The final buds cut are usually kept by the growers because of the higher terpene content and such.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> He is blowing the heat into the room with the tent and trying to cool it with an ac.
> 
> I advised that the heat has to be exhausted out of the house.
> 
> ...


I know you recommend that, but I also have a portable A/C in the room and my 3x3 tent with the 315w LEC CMH is not burning my plants with temps in the same range as the 2x4 was when the T5 was in there. So that doesn't make sense...................

Also figured out a way around exhausting out of the room with dryer hoses, I just leave the door open and the air is exchanged with the rest of the upstairs and the house A/C is running as well. 

So while people can insinuate it's me, if it was both of my tents would be screwed and that's not the case. The T5 tent was the only one messing up my plants. I put the 4 COB LED back in there same setup in the entire room everywhere else and temps dropped and the plants new growth is not all messed up like before.

IMHO, a 4 bulb T5 would have been better suited for this "enclosed" space and the 8 bulb is just too much...........


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> I know you recommend that, but I also have a portable A/C in the room and my 3x3 tent with the 315w LEC CMH is not burning my plants with temps in the same range as the 2x4 was when the T5 was in there. So that doesn't make sense...................


Yea 315 watts vs 432. Big difference.

Exhausting in the same room as the tent or even in the house is a bad idea. 

Your heating the room and then trying to cool it.

Trust me. You step up to a 400 hid or bigger you will have the same problem.

Exhaust out of the house. You will thank me.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Yea 315 watts vs 432. Big difference.
> 
> Exhausting in the same room as the tent or even in the house is a bad idea.
> 
> ...



I am in no way trying to argue brother, but the current facts are the facts. And FYI the 315w LEC is rated to perform like a 400 HID with less heat and power draw hence the reason I bought it lol.......


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

It doesn't matter what you run.

It would be wise to exchange air.

That means to get rid of it and bring new in.

I'm running the same eight bulbs in the same size space at about 8-10 inch above the canopy.

My temps never get above 82.

Its not the t5. It is improper ventilation.


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Something I just read in checking out that bulb was it suggested a 3' distance and only running it for 15 minutes every hour for the first 4 hours lights are on. A starting point at least.


I saw that too. I'm leavin em on and just watchin what happens for now


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> I am in no way trying to argue brother, but the current facts are the facts. And FYI the 315w LEC is rated to perform like a 400 HID with less heat and power draw hence the reason I bought it lol.......


I'm not going to argue either.

Fact is to run exhaust in a loop is wrong. For more reasons than just heat.


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I saw that too. I'm leavin em on and just watchin what happens for now


I say that is part of mobos problem. One not ridding the heat from the house and two not hardening the plants to the UV.


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## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I'm not going to argue either.
> 
> Fact is to run exhaust in a loop is wrong. For more reasons than just heat.


I run sealed rooms, no exhaust- but I do supplement with co2.

The heat is removed by water cooled air handlers, which also dehuey in the same pass.


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

I'm just not going to be told that a 432 watt t5 ruined plants and can't be run in a small space when I'm doing it just fine.

Been running them for a couple years now. I've worked the bugs out and know what it takes to do it.

I had heat problems among other problems until I exhausted out of the house.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> It doesn't matter what you run.
> 
> It would be wise to exchange air.
> 
> ...


My temps never went above 84 with the same setup and RM3 says in posts elsewhere he gets canopy temps up to 92. This is what you're not understanding here, because you take the fact that I am "new" as not knowing what I am discussing. The temps was not the issue but the plants are being burned. I simply stuffed too much into this enclosed space. The light was three feet plus away from the canopy and there were multiple strains under it. The pictures are in my thread. 

If the exhaust was the issue my flower tent would be suffering the same fate as well right?

I put the LED light back in the 2x4 and the plants respond wonderfully with new growth and no more burning. This same UV bulb when I first ran it as a supplement to my COB's by itself burned two of my plants big time. It runs hot, but it's like a radiation, not an ambient temp thing not sure how to explain this part.

Please keep in mind not all grow areas are the same, so just because something is working for you in a 2x4 (though not a tent) does not mean I can duplicate the same results, especially in a different geographical location.

FYI- I will be running the exhaust out this week, because summer is upon us and the heat here will only get worse so I do not want you feeling like the point you're driving is being ignored, the room is a work in progress.


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I run sealed rooms, no exhaust- but I do supplement with co2.
> 
> The heat is removed by water cooled air handlers, which also dehuey in the same pass.


That's fine. That works.

Mono is exhausting the heat to the room the tent is in and then trying to cool the hot air.

Just exhaust the heat outside and problem solved and no need to run the portable a/c.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

I saw your post yesterday about going back and forth with people on here brother, and not going to do this all day with you. As I have told you before via PM all of your help has been/is/was appreciated. I am not sure what's up your ass with me today, guess I was the lucky 100th customer or something. But you need to open your mind to one simple fact. You can take two identical size spaces like ours and run the same equipment and get different results and different issues, if for nothing else due to geographical locations.

You win.

I am a newb, I do not know what I am doing, my resons and testing are irrelevant and don't make sense. I will exhaust outside and fill the room with T5's and live happily ever after


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## bravedave (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I saw that too. I'm leavin em on and just watchin what happens for now


Damn Rambo!!


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> but it's like a radiation, not an ambient temp thing not sure how to explain this part.


The UVB from this bulb is very real, could def get a tan under em


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> The UVB from this bulb is very real, could def get a tan under em


I did on my forehead after one week tending to my plants, seriously.


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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Damn Rambo!!


I got leaves curlin, burnin, gettin waxy and I got a few plants sittin there sayin bring it on LOL

I did kick the fan up a notch


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## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> My temps never went above 84 with the same setup and RM3 says in posts elsewhere he gets canopy temps up to 92. This is what you're not understanding here, because you take the fact that I am "new" as not knowing what I am discussing. The temps was not the issue but the plants are being burned. I simply stuffed too much into this enclosed space. The light was three feet plus away from the canopy and there were multiple strains under it. The pictures are in my thread.
> 
> If the exhaust was the issue my flower tent would be suffering the same fate as well right?
> 
> ...


No biggie man. I get it. I burned some plants with mine.

Mainly the plants need to be started and grown the whole time under the t5.

Heat is not the only reason I suggest exhausting outside. 

Mold is a reason. I had to scrub two rooms and paint with kilz because of exhausting into the house.

The next reason is to air exchange. To replenish the c02 they use.

Ttystick runs sealed with c02 and removes heat and moisture.

For us low budget guys we have a couple options.

The cheapest and simplest is to exhaust outside. That removes heat and moisture without an a/c or dehumidifier. It also replaces c02.

There were other problems I ran into for not exhausting outside. You may or may not run in to them.

I'm just trying to save you the trouble, no matter which light you use.

That t5 has smart ballast. You can simply take out two bulb and it will still run. Or I can with mine.

It is what it is. I'm not trying to knock you. Just stating my opinion.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> I saw your post yesterday about going back and forth with people on here brother, and not going to do this all day with you. As I have told you before via PM all of your help has been/is/was appreciated. I am not sure what's up your ass with me today, guess I was the lucky 100th customer or something. But you need to open your mind to one simple fact. You can take two identical size spaces like ours and run the same equipment and get different results and different issues, if for nothing else due to geographical locations.
> 
> You win.
> 
> I am a newb, I do not know what I am doing, my resons and testing are irrelevant and don't make sense. I will exhaust outside and fill the room with T5's and live happily ever after


Pull the UV bulb and change it to see if you get different results.

It takes growing them from seed under that bulb or you will burn them.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

This plant loves it
.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

This plant does not love it
.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Pull the UV bulb and change it to see if you get different results.
> 
> It takes growing them from seed under that bulb or you will burn them.


I already pulled the fixture out. The COB is back in.

The last day I ran the T5 with one of the banks shut off down to just 4 bulbs and the temp dropped almost 10 degrees, the UV bulb was off............

But now I did not have the entire spectrum running so this defeated the purpose I was looking for.

What I really think the issue here ios "for me" with this particular light is that the fixture is literally the size of my tent basically, so the air from the circulating fans has trouble mixing from under the light with the hotter air above the light due to the ballasts. There were two fans on the floor, and then a clip on hanging from the top blowing across the ballast, inline with the passive intake, blowing toward the carbon filter which is the start of the exhaust. 

Now with the LED, you peek into the tent, and even though the gauge is reading high 70's/low 80's as the buckets, the ambient feels much cooler and the air movement inside is great, it feels cooler in the tent than the room........this is why I do not think the exhaust is the issue, because the exhaust is not that hot to begin with........


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> This plant does not love it
> .
> View attachment 3701929



This is how all of mine were starting to get..........


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

This plant seems to love it
.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> I already pulled the fixture out. The COB is back in.
> 
> The last day I ran the T5 with one of the banks shut off down to just 4 bulbs and the temp dropped almost 10 degrees, the UV bulb was off............
> 
> ...


It is. If you look at my light in my cab I cut four big flaps in the reflector to let heat go through. I didn't need it after exhausting outside.

You will see a big difference even with the other lights when you exhaust outside. You will most likely not need the portable a/c.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

You can see on the seedlings here the new growth is not all messed up like the older growth. Older growth T5, new growth COB light........


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> This plant seems to love it
> .
> View attachment 3701930


The ones that don't like it would probably handle it from seed or with a hardening off. Then again maybe not.


----------



## pookat (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> It takes growing them from seed


Thats what i do, plant seed add U.v Before it sprouts, it seems to adjust better


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> It is. If you look at my light in my cab I cut four big flaps in the reflector to let heat go through. I didn't need it after exhausting outside.
> 
> You will see a big difference even with the other lights when you exhaust outside. You will most likely not need the portable a/c.


Trust me the A/C is needed. I bought it because it's cheaper to run this in the grow room which is a spare bedroom than to be running the entire house at a certain temp to keep one room cooler......so I have no regrets on the portable A/C that was coming regardless........


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> The ones that don't like it would probably handle it from seed or with a hardening off. Then again maybe not.


Ironically the ones that hate it the most are land races


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Trust me the A/C is needed. I bought it because it's cheaper to run this in the grow room which is a spare bedroom than to be running the entire house at a certain temp to keep one room cooler......so I have no regrets on the portable A/C that was coming regardless........


We will see. I think you will be surprised at how much difference exhausting outside does.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Ironically the ones that hate it the most are land races


Do you think after so many years of people breeding that maybe some of the strains have evolved so to say to prefer indoor type lights? And maybe this is why these strains do not like the UV because that starts to mimmick more the outdoor world? Just thinking out loud here.......


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> We will see. I think you will be surprised at how much difference exhausting outside does.


Good maybe all my meds will start turning purple from cooler temps


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Ironically the ones that hate it the most are land races


I suspect that strains that come from higher elevations will do better.

I suspect that breeding with that light on will also help as strains acclimate over a few generations.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Good maybe all my meds will start turning purple from cooler temps


They will.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Do you think after so many years of people breeding that maybe some of the strains have evolved so to say to prefer indoor type lights? And maybe this is why these strains do not like the UV because that starts to mimmick more the outdoor world? Just thinking out loud here.......


Yes. They acclimate to where they are growing. It is why some strains breeders reccomend only indoors.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> One not ridding the heat from the house and two not hardening the plants to the UV.


I think I'm okay on the first in terms of excess cooling capacity, although it always needs to be accounted for. 

On the second, that's good advice. My plants will not have seen UV and will therefore need a transition. I think that a few 15 minute on cycles for the first few days, then adding more for longer as the cycle progresses makes sense on many levels.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I suspect that strains that come from higher elevations will do better.
> 
> I suspect that breeding with that light on will also help as strains acclimate over a few generations.


Nah, it's just that the plants themselves need time to acclimate. Some plants are growing more vigorously than others and can adjust more quickly. Certainly strain plays a role but I doubt there are strains that simply can't handle it.


----------



## Slipup420 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> In another part of the same veg space, I have two COB LED modules; each runs 4 CXB3590 3500k CD BIN at 54W each, for 225W. That 450W mops the floor with the 550W of the Mars Hydro LED in veg mode. It's not even close. Everyone who looks at them side by side- because they are- agrees.
> 
> It's just fun to play with the unit.


 How can someone say it blows it away when they both would grow pretty much the same , IMO would like to see pretty sure daily difference is unnoticeable,, weekly ?? may be one stretched more then the other ?? ..
You got any pictures of actual plants?? and lateral branching difference ? just because it looks bigger does not mean its better .. 
what you need to do is test this grow 2 plants exact strain 2 weeks from clone compare height, lateral branching, how many bud sites , and most importantly root size as in growth ,, One may grow better in a certain stage yet when it comes to bloom the smaller one or the least likely out performed the bigger one , I seen it numerous times


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> How can someone say it blows it away when they both would grow pretty much the same , IMO would like to see pretty sure daily difference is unnoticeable,, weekly ?? may be one stretched more then the other ?? ..
> You got any pictures of actual plants?? and lateral branching difference ? just because it looks bigger does not mean its better ..
> what you need to do is test this grow 2 plants exact strain 2 weeks from clone compare height, lateral branching, how many bud sites , and most importantly root size as in growth ,, One may grow better in a certain stage yet when it comes to bloom the smaller one or the least likely out performed the bigger one , I seen it numerous times
> View attachment 3702024


You wanna do that, by all means get yourself the rig and the gear and test it. I've already made and shared my own judgement, take it or leave it.

The more salient question to ask would be, "WHY do you think so?"

My answer would be that the Mars panel suffers from;
1. Less efficient chips
2. Poor light distribution
3. No lenses
4. Relatively inefficient spectrum output
5. Plants apparently need different nutes than under other lights

Better is better. In this case, a lot better! This unit has proven to me that my investment in COB LED lighting was indeed money well spent.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I think I'm okay on the first in terms of excess cooling capacity, although it always needs to be accounted for.
> 
> On the second, that's good advice. My plants will not have seen UV and will therefore need a transition. I think that a few 15 minute on cycles for the first few days, then adding more for longer as the cycle progresses makes sense on many levels.


That wasn't directed to you. I don't think. 


ttystikk said:


> Nah, it's just that the plants themselves need time to acclimate. Some plants are growing more vigorously than others and can adjust more quickly. Certainly strain plays a role but I doubt there are strains that simply can't handle it.


I'd say all of them can acclimate to it.

I just meant that strains that are from higher elevations have been exposed to higher amounts of UV for generations.

Its supposedly why places like the Hindu mountains have good weed.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

Now, my COB LED chips make no UV so it makes sense to supplement with it. I'll start with 2 x 4' Agromax (is this the highest UVB lamp?) per trellis. I'll let the plants tell me if that's enough to make a difference.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> How can someone say it blows it away when they both would grow pretty much the same , IMO would like to see pretty sure daily difference is unnoticeable,, weekly ?? may be one stretched more then the other ?? ..
> You got any pictures of actual plants?? and lateral branching difference ? just because it looks bigger does not mean its better ..
> what you need to do is test this grow 2 plants exact strain 2 weeks from clone compare height, lateral branching, how many bud sites , and most importantly root size as in growth ,, One may grow better in a certain stage yet when it comes to bloom the smaller one or the least likely out performed the bigger one , I seen it numerous times
> View attachment 3702024


 It is pretty much common knowledge here that blurple lights are inferior to cob and even t5.

This site doesn't sensor its members. The reviews of products, even from advertisers, are honest.

Other grow sites will ban you if you speak badly of their sponsors products.

It is also known that on other sites where members are growing huge plants with them are being a little misleading. They run double or triple the panels. Then someone goes and buys one and wonders what's going on.

It is also very well known that the makers if blurple lights are dishonest in their marketing claims. They claim outrageous numbers and claim a 3-400 watt panel can replace x amount of hid watts.

Then you have companies like advance on amazon ripping off a legit company.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> How can someone say it blows it away when they both would grow pretty much the same , IMO would like to see pretty sure daily difference is unnoticeable,, weekly ?? may be one stretched more then the other ?? ..
> You got any pictures of actual plants?? and lateral branching difference ? just because it looks bigger does not mean its better ..
> what you need to do is test this grow 2 plants exact strain 2 weeks from clone compare height, lateral branching, how many bud sites , and most importantly root size as in growth ,, One may grow better in a certain stage yet when it comes to bloom the smaller one or the least likely out performed the bigger one , I seen it numerous times
> View attachment 3702024


 It is pretty much common knowledge here that blurple lights are inferior to cob and even t5.

This site doesn't sensor its members. The reviews of products, even from advertisers, are honest.

Other grow sites will ban you if you speak badly of their sponsors products.

It is also known that on other sites where members are growing huge plants with them are being a little misleading. They run double or triple the panels. Then someone goes and buys one and wonders what's going on.

It is also very well known that the makers if blurple lights are dishonest in their marketing claims. They claim outrageous numbers and claim a 3-400 watt panel can replace x amount of hid watts.

Then you have companies like advance on amazon ripping off a legit company.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Now, my COB LED chips make no UV so it makes sense to supplement with it. I'll start with 2 x 4' Agromax (is this the highest UVB lamp?) per trellis. I'll let the plants tell me if that's enough to make a difference.


From what I've read the agromax pure UV is the best UV light. They claim more UV than reptile bulbs.

I know you have to shut them off or cover up when working around them.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> From what I've read the agromax pure UV is the best UV light. They claim more UV than reptile bulbs.
> 
> I know you have to shut them off or cover up when working around them.


For this reason I plan to have them on a separate circuit so they can be timed and shut off as needed.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> and most importantly root size as in growth ,, One may grow better in a certain stage yet when it comes to bloom the smaller one or the least likely out performed the bigger one , I seen it numerous times


Of course the mars hydro LED gets destroyed by top bin CXB. Are you kidding me? We're talking about the difference between 20-30% efficiency and 50-60% efficiency, and you really expect them to perform equally?


----------



## Slipup420 (Jun 7, 2016)

There is a lot of lies when it comes to both units and miss leading info,, its all about sales at the end of the day right ??
For me it does not matter extremely happy with T5;s for my seed runs and 2 plant thrown in flower fun , I really tend to stay away from indoor growing all together then seedlings like i said . nothing will ever come close to what the sun is capable of producing and efficiency being its free
Since dedicating 10 acres to organic marijuana growing and spending money this year on SDI system fed by stream rather then hauling water out there, is going to make my life so much better and my guess is 20 - 30 percent increase in harvests with moisture monitor in place it put me behind a bit but plants are going in the ground tomorrow 500 of them my goal this year is to break 2200 pound mark dry yields. Now that is what i am talking about at unloading at whole sale price 1350 a pound quick sale ) 297,000 dollars 100,000 to tax leaves me 197,000 profit for plant and walk away 15,000 paid to trimmers etc this is small scale production one could very easily produce 10 - 20,000 pounds of weed in that area but its not coming out of my wallet to get there its out of profits to get to that stage , With employees etc
Guessing 5 years and 20,000 MJ plants and 80,000 pounds 

Here T5 Grow 2 plants  432 watts 2.0 GPW


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> It is pretty much common knowledge here that blurple lights are inferior to cob and *even t5*.


What about blurple T5s?


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> There is a lot of lies when it comes to both units and miss leading info,, its all about sales at the end of the day right ??
> For me it does not matter extremely happy with T5;s for my seed runs and 2 plant thrown in flower fun , I really tend to stay away from indoor growing all together then seedlings like i said . nothing will ever come close to what the sun is capable of producing and efficiency being its free
> Since dedicating 10 acres to organic marijuana growing and spending money this year on SDI system fed by stream rather then hauling water out there, is going to make my life so much better and my guess is 20 - 30 percent increase in harvests with moisture monitor in place it put me behind a bit but plants are going in the ground tomorrow 500 of them my goal this year is to break 2200 pound mark dry yields. Now that is what i am talking about at unloading at whole sale price 1350 a pound quick sale ) 297,000 dollars 100,000 to tax leaves me 197,000 profit for plant and walk away 15,000 paid to trimmers etc this is small scale production one could very easily produce 10 - 20,000 pounds of weed in that area but its not coming out of my wallet to get there its out of profits to get to that stage , With employees etc
> Guessing 5 years and 20,000 MJ plants and 80,000 pounds


No there aren't. There are only lies with the MARS panel. The cxb3590 datasheet is not a lie. You're a tinfoiler if you think CREE is lying to you in their datasheets.

http://www.cree.com/~/media/Files/Cree/LED-Components-and-Modules/XLamp/Data-and-Binning/ds-CXB3590.pdf

Edit: The CXB panels ttystick described will utterly *destroy *your T5s too btw.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> That wasn't directed to you. I don't think.
> 
> I'd say all of them can acclimate to it.
> 
> ...


about ten yrs ago I moved from sea level to 3000 ft up, and I grew the same strains fro yrs at the time (jack herer and the SC bluedream)
anyways, that SAME strain outside, was noticeably stonier than the indoor one, even though the indoor looked a lil nicer, but the bluedream in particular was markedly stronger
and furthermore I got sunburnt up there in like 15 minutes too.

funny story on that, I got evicted by the landlord for growing herb on the property (legally)
and the funny thing was the husband I smoked out with regularly, but the wife didn't know about it.
hilarious
so the wife was a pot-Nazi
I didn't have the heart to roll him under the bus, the wife was a BITCH... so I figured i'd jump on that grenade for him. Considering I could always move, and that poor bastard had to sleep next to that bitch for eternity..
so I moved. Too bad too, the best outdoor I ever grew by far..
course the deer up there could strip my roses and pot plants overnight..
Nothing a fence can't fix though


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> What about blurple T5s?


What about them? I use them. They work just fine. Its not the blurple I'm against. Its the cheap parts and the marketing hype.

You know I use them and trying to fire the arguing back up.

I use them in conjunction with other bulbs for full spectrum.

I'm still waiting on a pic of some fire weed from you.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

The fact that people are still talking about T5 on a mainstream weed forum is troubling. You're harming both the economy and the environment by using 25% efficient T5HO lamps when 35% efficient HPS lamps are the convention, and 50-60% efficient cobs are the future.

*You're going the wrong way*

*




*


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> What about them?


What do you mean what about them? You were comparing blurples to T5. I was pointing out that T5 can also be blurple. Also, if you've determined that blurples suck, why.... oh why in gods name... are you buying them???


----------



## singledigit midgit (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Just the fact that people are still talking about T5 on a mainstream weed forum is troubling. You're harming both the economy and the environment by using 25% efficient T5HO lamps when 35% efficient HPS lamps are the convention, and 50-60% efficient *cobs are the future.*
> 
> *You're going the wrong way*


 so are you saying they are not ready for growing yet?


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Just the fact that people are still talking about T5 on a mainstream weed forum is troubling. You're harming both the economy and the environment by using 25% efficient T5HO lamps when 35% efficient HPS lamps are the convention, and 50-60% efficient cobs are the future.
> 
> *You're going the wrong way*


No, we're not. We're goin where "we " want and has nothing to do with you 

don't you have a pile of COB's somewhere you need to play with


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> What do you mean what about them? You were comparing blurples to T5. I was pointing out that T5 can also be blurple. Also, if you've determined that blurples suck, why.... oh why in gods name... are you buying them???


Blurple in itself is not bad. I think we will see that when people get their hands on that new company advertising on here with their multi colored cobs. 

The cob part and efficiency is what make them better.

The pure par tubes I use are purple because they hit both red and blue spectrum and are far better than mars.

They hit the 420-470 and 620-670nm range. I use two of them with a mix of other bulbs.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> No, we're not. We're goin where "we " want and has nothing to do with you
> 
> don't you have a pile of COB's somewhere you need to play with


Don't you have a bunch of overly blue tubes you need to return to? How about _you_ take off and stop giving bad advice.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

Smash your POS 25% efficient tubes and get real lamps like HPS.


----------



## Slipup420 (Jun 7, 2016)

All i am trying to relay is T5's ,Burple, Cobs HPS MH CMH, Plasma and even a flashlight will grow a plant ,, i did not come in here to start a fight against cob or led or HPS for that matter 
Who really cares at the end of the day do, or use what works best for your situation i use T5's for seedlings and cuttings they work like a charm i also use Green houses , and land for final transplant and harvests 
Church its like saying ??? ok i am going to think green and become a organic gardener start a big compost bin up guess what ???? your Contributing to green house gasses there fore your just as guilty as the next person ..
Cause remember what does composts piles release ??? I know Green house gasses 
There is no right and wrong spreading must almost be over in most areas we finished month ago ?? you live out in the country ??? you ever get that strong smell of Shit ??? looming in the air ..
Also one can easily say well any grower using Grid power is wasting Electricity and responsible for pollution of rivers lakes and so on where power is being made its a never ending circle of you fucked something up realizing it or not .. or a part of 

As for lies here is the biggest lie out there Cobs/ leds do not produce heat , sure you can improve efficiency by under driving them ... But you forget to mention your yields suffer in consequence.. with the reduction of wattage on the light so where does it all end ?? by saving pennies this is what it really amounts to pennies per month ..
Whats going to happen with a light source comes out 2 - 5 percent better efficient will everyone jump ship yet again . 
for a whopping 5 percent efficiency 

Here is some truth even placing a plant on window sill haha will out perform any indoor light made to date 
Sure there is always going the be the fight between LED's and cobs nd even HPS ,, its becoming a moot point really do what suits your growing style and thoughts be happy grow grow grow ..
On closing note in all honesty with the confusion of LED wattage i would place bets that true 200 watt draw LED going against a 200 wart Cob end resuts are not going to be mind boggling its the people putting 400 watt Cob against the 400 watt LED unit only drawing 200 at the wall lol


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Church its like saying ??? ok i am going to think green and become a organic gardener start a big compost bin up guess what ???? your Contributing to green house gasses there fore your just as guilty as the next person ..
> Cause remember what does composts piles release ??? I know Green house gasses


That's interesting, but I grow DWC with calcium nitrate, potassium nitrate, monopotassium phosphate, magnesium sulfate, iron DTPA 10%, manganese sulfate, sodium borate, and sodium molybdate.

Please quote where I said that growing organically is better for the environment? Nowhere.. As @Sativied loves to say, Straman argument!!

Soil vs potting mix vs hydro isn't black and white like saving energy is. Even the most conservative people would likely agree that using less energy to get the same result is good for the environment. Certainly they'd agree it's better for the economy.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> As for lies here is the biggest lie out there Cobs/ leds do not produce heat , sure you can improve efficiency by under driving them ... But you forget to mention your yields suffer in consequence.. with the reduction of wattage on the light so where does it all end ?? by saving pennies this is what it really amounts to pennies per month ..
> Whats going to happen with a light source comes out 2 - 5 percent better efficient will everyone jump ship yet again .
> for a whopping 5 percent efficiency


This quote is wrong on many levels.

1) Even at test current (not under-driving), the top bin CXB3590 3000k 80cri is about 41% efficient. This clobbers MARS and holds it's grounds to DE HPS efficiency.

2) When people under-drive, they don't reduce the wattage because MORE COBS makes up for the lost wattage. You totally miss the point if you're not seeing this.

3) By your logic, a light coming out that's 2-5% more efficient should also cause T5 and HPS growers to jump ship. Your shit just got older too. You're making the assumption that people who invest in cobs inherently need to have the newest technology at all times. A 50% lamp doesn't all of the sudden become bad because a 60% lamp comes out... but your *T5's are starting to look pretty bad. It's time for them to jump ship.*


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

As for a "whooping 5% in efficiency", to put things in perspective, if you increase your T5 lamps from 25% to 30%, you'd be getting 20% more light.

There's your "whopping 5%".

An increase like that would make T5 decent.

A 100W lamp increasing from 40% to 65% efficiency would be like adding the entire output of a 100W T5 lamp to the 40% lamp. The 65% is literally 1 T5 more powerful than the 40% lamp. It's that much better than T5.

Here's a visual for those who need it:


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

Ditch your T5s and cop some of these maffuks:

https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10013316/2250000-cree-cxa2530-60w-4000k-6000lm-cob-led-array


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> *T5's are starting to look pretty bad. It's time for them to jump ship.*


It's time for you to sit on one and take a spin, I don't give a fuck if God himself comes down and offers his glowing halo crown to flower my plants, I will continue to use what I prefer !!!

It is my herb after all, my garden, my high, all facilitated by my T5's


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> As for a "whooping 5% in efficiency", to put things in perspective, if you increase your T5 lamps from 25% to 30%, you'd be getting 20% more light.
> 
> There's your "whopping 5%".
> 
> ...





DraculaReactor said:


> Ditch your T5s and cop some of these maffuks:
> 
> https://www.fasttech.com/products/0/10013316/2250000-cree-cxa2530-60w-4000k-6000lm-cob-led-array


Take the COB nonsense somewhere else, no one here cares for your crap


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

Ok guys for further testing, and to kill my curiosity, I went and got some 54w Phillips bulbs and gonna try running them and see what happens.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Take the COB nonsense somewhere else, no one here cares for your crap


You take your T5 nonsense somewhere else. You have no claim on this thread. Go moderate your own forum.


----------



## dbkick (Jun 7, 2016)

you'll be needing some of these!

http://www.eyehortilux.com/products/power-veg.aspx

I'm going a different route.
http://www.eyehortilux.com/products/CHPS600-PerformanceSpecs.aspx


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You take your T5 nonsense somewhere else. You have no claim on this thread. Go moderate your own forum.


He's the OP, have some courtesy and cut the bullshit already the rest of us are here to share info and you are contributing absolutely nothing to the thread.


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

People that are mad about cobs are just mad about being too lazy to implement them. Sorry you're being left behind.

"Ew gross they're too efficient"


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> It's time for you to sit on one and take a spin, I don't give a fuck if God himself comes down and offers his glowing halo crown to flower my plants, I will continue to use what I prefer !!!
> 
> It is my herb after all, my garden, my high, all facilitated by my T5's


Dont forget your boiling water!


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> He's the OP, have some courtesy and cut the bullshit already the rest of us are here to share info and you are contributing absolutely nothing to the thread.


IDGAF if he's the OP. This is a thread called "light ???" in the advanced section of RIU. OP doesn't get ownership over their threads here.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You take your T5 nonsense somewhere else. You have no claim on this thread. Go moderate your own forum.


No, I only just started it LOL 

While you, use it to show everyone your ass, now that we've seen it, gotta say we're not impressed


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> IDGAF if he's the OP. This is a thread called "light ???" in the advanced section of RIU. OP doesn't get ownership over their threads here.


When your COB's grow up maybe they can hang in the advanced forum ???


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

Oh and love your sock puppet helpers LMAO


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> No, I only just started it LOL
> 
> While you, use it to show everyone your ass, now that we've seen it, gotta say we're not impressed


It only seems that way to you because you literally have cult members following you around everywhere you go. However..... You are the emperor with no cloths.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Take the COB nonsense somewhere else, no one here cares for your crap


Why you cranky? Did you burn yourself?


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> It only seems that way to you because you literally have cult members following you around everywhere you go. However..... You are the emperor with no cloths.


The Kool-Aid is good, you should have a toke


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Why you cranky? Did you burn yourself?


I'm never cranky LOL


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

Lol @ losers who grow garbage because they can't be bothered to step their game up. Losers will be losers, I guess. COB revolution, there is no excuse.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Oh and love your sock puppet helpers LMAO


Dude sock puppets not needed to mock your "books" and " advanced techniques". You bloated sense of expertise is a house joke.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> Lol @ losers who grow garbage because they can't be bothered to step their game up. Losers will be losers, I guess. COB revolution, there is no excuse.


Nothing impressive there,,,,move along


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

Can your T5s do this? Didn't think so.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> Can your T5s do this? Didn't think so.


I'm thinkin you've never seen my pics LMFAO 

I could do that with a bic lighter LOL


----------



## hyroot (Jun 7, 2016)

I've ran every lighting there is I flowered with t5's for over 2 years. Then another 6 months later on. I'm all over @pr0fesseur threads. led with out leds my first t5 grow thread.

Anyway t5's were great at the time when they outperformed led and matched hps. As long as you scrogged or grew short plants I used every bulb combo possible. I found the aquarium bulbs were not necessary. The best aq bulbs are zoo meds. Far better quality than wave point Chinese junk. All you need is some white 5000k t5's and a few 2700k. And get the same results as using profs line up or even all zoo med flora suns.



I was running 1000w hps and cheap Chinese led at the time. I've ran all start 330 cmh. 315 cmh, induction, single led and cobs.

By far cobs and cmh are the best lighting there is. Best efficiency. Being more efficient. They use less watts and produce less heat. a 432 watts t5 produces a lot of heat. fare more than 2 of my 460 watt inda gro induction / led. That's 432 watts of t5 producing more heat than 920 watts of induction / led.

The more efficient a light is the less heat it produces and the more light it produces. (mcree curve).

I'm getting best results under cobs and cmh. and separated too. not side by side.

cobs are expensive but they last year's. Where t5 bulbs should be replaced every 6 months. They start spectral degrading around then. A cheaper and equivalent alternative to cobs is 315 cmh. 339 watts at the wall on a 120v. Covers a 3.5 x 3.5 and can do a 4x4 with multiple over lapping. The cmh bulbs don't start spectral degrading til 18 months.

T5's will grow big quality buds. There's no denying that. If you want more light and less heat at half the watts of t5. Then cmh or cobs is a far better alternative.


If all you have is a t5 and can't afford anything else. Then by all means use what you have. 4 years ago my place was robbed and I lost everything. I borrowed my buddies t5's to use t5's again. I used 2 grows to get back on my feet. (2) 8 bulbs and (1) 6 bulb . After 2 harvests I was able to upgrade a couple lights. Then after another harvest, more lights and so on.


Going around preaching that t5 is the best light there is. That is a huge stretch to say the least.


The compost bin comment about green house gases only applies so much if it's not turned and becomes too anaerobic. One of your own farts is more harmful than a compost bin. All the forests are one giant compost bin. The world is doing fine with them. Worm bins don't releases gases as such as the worm aerate the bin.

The comment about blurpee t5's. If you are referring to Fiji purples. The spd was never released. There was a fake one rolling around for a while. it wasn't real. So no one know what wavelengths it hits. Unless someone here has a radiospecrometer.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 7, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Church its like saying ??? ok i am going to think green and become a organic gardener start a big compost bin up guess what ???? your Contributing to green house gasses there fore your just as guilty as the next person ..
> Cause remember what does composts piles release ??? I know Green house gasses


alrigh man, so since I'm the resident composter, and also happen to be an emissions expert/professional, heres some info.

compost pile do create a TINY bit of co2, hence the usage of biochar in the compost pile man.

not to mention the amount of CO2 made from a compost pile is negligible compared to lets say.. hmm* your car*..
so ONE trip to the garden store/nursery and that CO2 from your car is gonn WAY out "pollute" your compost pile.
the argument is the same that prius owners make.
while being selectively ignorant to the cost and fuel considered when assembling the prius to begin with.

but lets not all kid ourselves... until we proliferate the solar panels needed, we ALL are contributing to the greenhouse gasses.
but certainly not by doing a compost pile.
also one could argue that the landfill have MUCH less of an effective way for the "compost" to break down, and therefore the greenhouse gasses created are more impactful in that regard.
so composting yourself would limit that.

anyways..
here let me get down off this


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I'm thinkin you've never seen my pics LMFAO
> 
> I could do that with a bic lighter LOL


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

You used a penny for reference in that one bud shot

I like to use soda cans 
.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> The compost bin comment about green house gases only applies so much if it's not turned and becomes too anaerobic. *One of your own farts is more harmful than a compost bin*. All the forests are one giant compost bin. The world is doing fine with them. Worm bins don't releases gases as such as the worm aerate the bin.


ahh a fellow organic ally beat me to it.
kudos my friend
and indeed.
if you guys are worried about greenhouse gasses??
quit eating beef.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Going around preaching that t5 is the best light there is. That is a huge stretch to say the least.


Have never done that


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> You used a penny for reference in that one bud shot
> 
> I like to use soda cans
> .
> View attachment 3702215


That's not how reference works. My buds actually have resin on them and aren't 80% air.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

Hung the T5 with 8 Phillips Alto bulbs. (4) 3500K and (4) 4100K that's all HD had in T5's.

Already the heat felt under the light is a HUGE diff, I will run this for a bit and see how it does then I can start mixing in the Agromax bulbs too. 

So the Tasty LED gets a break again while I test some more


----------



## hyroot (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Hung the T5 with 8 Phillips Alto bulbs. (4) 3500K and (4) 4100K that's all HD had in T5's.
> 
> Already the heat felt under the light is a HUGE diff, I will run this for a bit and see how it does then I can start mixing in the Agromax bulbs too.
> 
> So the Tasty LED gets a break again while I test some more



is Agromax from htg supply? if it is their eBay Store is far cheaper than their online store. Sorry that just hit me . I didn't think of it before .


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> is Agromax from htg supply? if it is their eBay Store is far cheaper than their online store. Sorry that just hit me . I didn't think of it before .


Yeah thanks for the heads up, I will keep that in mind if I order anything else from them. Both of my tents and my bulbs came from there. 

Thanks bro. I will be prepping my soil for the SIP this week.


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> That's not how reference works. My buds actually have resin on them and aren't 80% air.


What ever floats your boat darlin


----------



## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> is Agromax from htg supply? if it is their eBay Store is far cheaper than their online store. Sorry that just hit me . I didn't think of it before .


Yes and the walk in store here in Denver was cheaper as well (by 20%)


----------



## kmog33 (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> This plant loves it
> .
> View attachment 3701928





RM3 said:


> This plant does not love it
> .
> View attachment 3701929


Lol. I think you may have something there. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## hyroot (Jun 7, 2016)




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## RM3 (Jun 7, 2016)

Church, you'll be happy to hear that a grower just bought 3 oracle light fixtures and intends on building a tanning booth just like mine ,,,,, the disease is spreading LOL


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

That's a good deal @hyroot

All 8 of mine were about $76 but I mixed my bulbs up more than between those two types, I am sure this will help someone else though


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

dbkick said:


> you'll be needing some of these!
> 
> http://www.eyehortilux.com/products/power-veg.aspx
> 
> ...


Oooo. Having a closer look at that spectrum graph. Me likey. Do they have a DE thouie version?


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Oooo. Having a closer look at that spectrum graph. Me likey. Do they have a DE thouie version?


dude you should wait a few months, Hortilux is rolling out Ceramic HPS from what I'm hearing. Should be the biggity bomb.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> Can your T5s do this? Didn't think so.


Why would you say stuff like that? Nice Bud, but were all doing that here. With many different types of light.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Why would you say stuff like that? Nice Bud, but were all doing that here. With many different types of light.


Because people let their enthusiasm get the best of them and have to be fan boys of what they use to justify to themselves what they bought. Not realizing you can achieve the same results in many different ways.

The level of BS on this forum really does not cease to amaze me, and 90% of the time there's an LED fanboy involved in it lol......

I am trying out all the different lights that interested me and then I can evaluate and see what I want to use for "my" garden.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 7, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Because people let their enthusiasm get the best of them and have to be fan boys of what they use to justify to themselves what they bought. Not realizing you can achieve the same results in many different ways.
> 
> The level of BS on this forum really does not cease to amaze me, and 90% of the time there's an LED fanboy involved in it lol......
> 
> I am trying out all the different lights that interested me and then I can evaluate and see what I want to use for "my" garden.


Yea but you have a cob set up. So why aren't you being a rude jerk?


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 7, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Yea but you have a cob set up. So why aren't you being a rude jerk?


I don't know maybe I should be banned for that


----------



## SPLFreak808 (Jun 7, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Why would you say stuff like that? Nice Bud, but were all doing that here. With many different types of light.


Because 90% of riu users only grow garbage and very few people grow danker shit then "he" lol. https://www.rollitup.org/t/strange-deficency-what-is-it.911493/page-2


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Why would you say stuff like that? Nice Bud, but were all doing that here. With many different types of light.


Because you're wasting electricity by being a Luddite. There are objectively better ways to achieve the same results, and willful denial is the definition of stupidity. You can talk up this "my garden" line, but that's unscientific and a waste of your money. Why not use LED? It's the best source of photons ever devised at this point. Light is light, photons are photons, I'm saying that you are using an obsolete way of generating them. There is actually a right and wrong answer sometimes, and 25% efficient T5s are the wrong answer.

Don't be proud of being wrong, COB guys rip on everyone because we're doing everything we can to push the industry forward, to be met with "that doesn't work for me because I'm cheap and don't want to build anything". The truth hurts.


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## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

SPLFreak808 said:


> Because 90% of riu users only grow garbage and very few people grow danker shit then "he" lol. https://www.rollitup.org/t/strange-deficency-what-is-it.911493/page-2


That is absolutely true.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> Because you're wasting electricity by being a Luddite. There are objectively better ways to achieve the same results, and willful denial is the definition of stupidity. You can talk up this "my garden" line, but that's unscientific and a waste of your money. Why not use LED? It's the best source of photons ever devised at this point. Light is light, photons are photons, I'm saying that you are using an obsolete way of generating them. There is actually a right and wrong answer sometimes, and 25% efficient T5s are the wrong answer.
> 
> Don't be proud of being wrong, COB guys rip on everyone because we're doing everything we can to push the industry forward, to be met with "that doesn't work for me because I'm cheap and don't want to build anything". The truth hurts.


Holy shit i just read your reply from another thread. Im going to go as far to say that you won't be showing us with any lab results, will you? Your bud is nice. No better then most people on this site. Thats the truth.


----------



## SPLFreak808 (Jun 7, 2016)

RM3 said:


> You used a penny for reference in that one bud shot
> 
> I like to use soda cans
> .
> View attachment 3702215


Why does the mt.dew look empty? Lmao kidding, nice bud bro. Regardless of certain disagreements i have, you are humble enough to get my respect. did you boil that harvests roots? It's still green and healthy thats why?


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## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

Mongo you are the saltiest dude on this website under Buck, (this is Queece by the way oh shit wuddup). We are in the business of generating photons. You are essentially using Thomas Edison's light bulb because you are afraid of being wrong. My chronic is balls-out incredible, anyone with eyes can see that. I use no air conditioning and bulk hydroponic nutrients to achieve that. If you're going to talk about g/w, you need to factor in your mini-split if you want to be honest. This is 1115 watts from the wall, fans, light, everything. You tell me this isn't impressive for less wattage than a space heater? That's absurd. Your methods are unsound. It's lonely at the top.


----------



## Slipup420 (Jun 7, 2016)




greasemonkeymann said:


> alrigh man, so since I'm the resident composter, and also happen to be an emissions expert/professional, heres some info.
> 
> compost pile do create a TINY bit of co2, hence the usage of biochar in the compost pile man.
> 
> ...


There are actually very few published scientific studies about greenhouse gas emissions from composts, but the two that I have been able to find show that around 2-3% of the original carbon in the manure or green waste is emitted as methane (21X carbon dioxide in GHG potential) and there is also a little nitrous oxideas well (310X carbon dioxide in GHG potential). That doesn’t sound at all bad until you do some math with the values in these publications.
if you think of it in terms of delivering a hundred pounds of nitrogen/acre (as you would for something like an organic vegetable crop) you would need to start with 8600 pounds (on a dry weight basis) of cow manure (because there is a loss of mass and because the compost is only 1.7% nitrogen). The greenhouse gas emissions are the equivalent of 0.74 lbs CO2 per dry lb of manure. That means that the “carbon footprint” of the 100 lbs of N in compost fertilizer is 6,403 lbs CO2. That is 14.6 times as much as for synthetic urea fertilizer! It is the equivalent of burning 331 gallons of gasoline!

PS: by the way i farm both organic and synthetic


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> Mongo you are the saltiest dude on this website under Buck, (this is Queece by the way oh shit wuddup). We are in the business of generating photons. You are essentially using Thomas Edison's light bulb because you are afraid of being wrong. My chronic is balls-out incredible, anyone with eyes can see that. I use no air conditioning and bulk hydroponic nutrients to achieve that. If you're going to talk about g/w, you need to factor in your mini-split if you want to be honest. This is 1115 watts from the wall, fans, light, everything. You tell me this isn't impressive for less wattage than a space heater? That's absurd. Your methods are unsound. It's lonely at the top.


I have no methods. I just garden. I don't even know who Queece is. Whats a Queece? Again your bud is as good as most people on this site. Again that is the truth.


----------



## DraculaReactor (Jun 7, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> I have no methods. I just garden. I don't even know who Queece is. Whats a Queece? Again your bud is as good as most people on this site. Again that is the truth.


I'll concede that point to you, but I grow that quality for less money than anyone else on this site. I'm saying what I am for the benefit of the community and their pocket book. You can waste a lot of wattage trying to achieve what I achieve with less effective methods, or you could take a hint.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> I'll concede that point to you, but I grow that quality for less money than anyone else on this site. I'm saying what I am for the benefit of the community and their pocket book. You can waste a lot of wattage trying to achieve what I achieve with less effective methods, or you could take a hint.


No thanks. Im ok with my current lighting. We all know cobs are doing great things. Im just going to wait for the HPS ban thats coming in like 90 years.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

I just did some calculations on the new Ceramic HPS. I digitized the spectral power distribution chart and calculated LER to be 221lm/W.

They claim it's 34000 lumens for a 600W lamp so total luminous efficacy is 57lm/W. That gives it a radiant efficiency of 57/221 = 25.7%.

84% of the spectrum's power falls within 400-700. That gives it a PAR efficiency of 0.84*0.257 = 21.6%. (note: see edit)

The spectrum looks nice, but if these calculations are right, it looks like it will probably produce lower yields than old fashion HPS.



Edit: I'm obviously missing a lot of the spectral power distribution in the far-red and infrared.

I'm not sure why they don't show us this. Either way it doesn't really affect the radiant efficiency calculation since the luminosity function is negligible in the FR anyway.. It does effect the %PAR calculation obviously. Adding in the missing FR/IR part of the chart would make PAR efficiency lower since a smaller percentage of the power would be within 400-700.

Based on these numbers alone, I don't think Ceramic HPS has a great future.


----------



## singledigit midgit (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> That is absolutely true.


LMFAO


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> Can your T5s do this? Didn't think so.


Yes.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 7, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> View attachment 3702366 View attachment 3702382
> Yes.


You cant grow that with a T-5..... Its all about photons not plant health and gardening. Beautiful leaves by the way for late bloom!!!


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

I


DraculaReactor said:


> Because you're wasting electricity by being a Luddite. There are objectively better ways to achieve the same results, and willful denial is the definition of stupidity. You can talk up this "my garden" line, but that's unscientific and a waste of your money. Why not use LED? It's the best source of photons ever devised at this point. Light is light, photons are photons, I'm saying that you are using an obsolete way of generating them. There is actually a right and wrong answer sometimes, and 25% efficient T5s are the wrong answer.
> 
> Don't be proud of being wrong, COB guys rip on everyone because we're doing everything we can to push the industry forward, to be met with "that doesn't work for me because I'm cheap and don't want to build anything". The truth hurts.


Its not wasting electricity if it does the job.

How big and how many TVs you own? Computers? Appliances?

What kind of car and how many? What's the gas mileage?

Do you own a motorcycle, ATV or boat?

Point being if you have bigger or more TVs than me you are stupid for running more electric than me.

Is your car newer and get better gas mileage? No. You're stupid.

Do you have energy efficient appliances?

All arbitrary questions that are not relevant to a person's intellect.

A 4 ft 8 bulb fixture is on par for a gaming computer and other small appliances.


I would bet a $100 bill that your the type of ass hat that is saying that about wasting electric but still have cfl in your house. How come you haven't upgraded to led yet.

Unless you have solar on your house, geothermal heating, and on demand water heaters you have no place to say anything.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> You cant grow that with a T-5..... Its all about photons not plant health and gardening. Beautiful leaves by the way for late bloom!!!


Take care of the plant and everything else falls into place.

That was t5. Three of them in 15 inch pots. Two of them got just under three feet. Colas as big as pop can and about 18 inches long.

They were autos to. Lol. I like going against the grain every way I can. 

Thank you. They were in living soil. 

The last couple pages of my thread has quit a few pics. I would load more but my connection is lagging.


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## dbkick (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Oooo. Having a closer look at that spectrum graph. Me likey. Do they have a DE thouie version?


I just price checked the 600 se and its actually not due till july, the de will be in October. Perfect timing for cooler temperature.


----------



## hyroot (Jun 7, 2016)

best grow lighting ever


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> best grow lighting ever
> 
> 
> View attachment 3702546


Do they make a veg version?


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

SPLFreak808 said:


> Because 90% of riu users only grow garbage and very few people grow danker shit then "he" lol. https://www.rollitup.org/t/strange-deficency-what-is-it.911493/page-2


 Lol. I just read that.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 7, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> I'll concede that point to you, but I grow that quality for less money than anyone else on this site. I'm saying what I am for the benefit of the community and their pocket book. You can waste a lot of wattage trying to achieve what I achieve with less effective methods, or you could take a hint.


Sorry man. My t5 buds are bigger and look better.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> best grow lighting ever
> 
> 
> View attachment 3702546


I just found one on alibaba.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

dbkick said:


> I just price checked the 600 se and its actually not due till july, the de will be in October. Perfect timing for cooler temperature.


Hmmmm So there's a DE lamp option, huh? 

I am running that revolution micro fixture with the HPS lamp that came with it. It's a nice system, I'll bet that would be a heck of a lamp and ballast combination to try, what do you think?


----------



## kmog33 (Jun 7, 2016)

600 de?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> 600 de?
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I'm hoping for the thouie.


----------



## dbkick (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Hmmmm So there's a DE lamp option, huh?
> 
> I am running that revolution micro fixture with the HPS lamp that came with it. It's a nice system, I'll bet that would be a heck of a lamp and ballast combination to try, what do you think?


Not sure, if they don't do something different it's the same ol shit and why bother though.
I think the de will probably come in a couple varieties but have no info on it.


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## kmog33 (Jun 7, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I'm hoping for the thouie.


I'd be into 600s if they were around. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## dbkick (Jun 7, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> I'd be into 600s if they were around.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


The se I posted above will be out next month. I may wait for the de version myself. Should look much better on paper.


----------



## hyroot (Jun 7, 2016)

dbkick said:


> The se I posted above will be out next month. I may wait for the de version myself. Should look much better on paper.



Are you still running the onyx panels? If so how are they doing?


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## dbkick (Jun 8, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Are you still running the onyx panels? If so how are they doing?


Actually yes, I've got 3 blooms in the room with two lec 315 with varying lamps. I think I have a ushio in one and phlips in one.
Not real sure how they would do on their own but they def fill in spots for me. up until my rail wheels needed replaced they were on a mover.
I know the capt says he likes his more with the covers and lenses off but I haven't tried that.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

So yesterday I bought the 8 Phillips bulbs @ Home Depot. (4) 3500K & (4) 4100K. Ran those for the afternoon and night. Early this AM I swapped out (2) of each Phillips bulb and added the following Agromax Bulbs:
- 10K Finisher
- Pure Par Veg
- (2) Bloom 6400K

This has been running for a bit with the temps in the same area and the plants perking up even more. I will be gone most of the day so hopefully I do not return to a tent full of burnt plants lol......

I really think the Pure UV bulb was and has been my issue and that this bulb is just not meant to run all day (although some people do it).

Anyways carry on everyone just sharing my exp thus far, but it's nice to have twice the watts back in the veg tent and have temps and everything under control and happy plants.

Cheers


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## RM3 (Jun 8, 2016)

All BS aside, Folks the Pure UV bulb is dangerous, please heed all warnings !!!!

I now have a sun burn 

tread lightly


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

RM3 said:


> All BS aside, Folks the Pure UV bulb is dangerous, please heed all warnings !!!!
> 
> I now have a sun burn
> 
> tread lightly


I wasn't kidding when I told you I got sun on my forehead lol...... started turning the light off when I got under it I was getting sunburnt........


----------



## bravedave (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Dude sock puppets not needed to mock your "books" and " advanced techniques". You bloated sense of expertise is a house joke.


Says "member since Monday". Lol.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Says "member since Monday". Lol.


Slave dave why not give your boy a hand with grammar and syntax. His books need some editing. In return maybe rm will share the arcane magic of the scentless cannabis. Consider bringing some aloe to the lab with you. . You could build a true bond by applying it to his agromax sunburn also Rms root boiling cauldrons might cause burns.


----------



## bravedave (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Slave dave why not give your boy a hand with grammar and syntax. His books need some editing. In return maybe rm will share the arcane magic of the scentless cannabis. Consider bringing some aloe to the lab with you. . You could build a true bond by applying it to his agromax sunburn also Rms root boiling cauldrons might cause burns.


Lol. Straw sock,
You could while away the hours, conferrin with the flowers, consultin' with the rain. Your head you'd be scratchin' while your thoughts were busy hatchin' 
You know, if you only had a brain. 

Come on Church, why the gilted girlfriend routine?


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Lol. Straw sock,
> You could while away the hours, conferrin with the flowers, consultin' with the rain. Your head you'd be scratchin' while your thoughts were busy hatchin'
> You know, if you only had a brain.
> 
> Come on Church, why the gilted girlfriend routine?


Your rhymes are as flaccid as your t5s. Repeating "lol" doesnt make idiocy funny, lout.


----------



## Resinhound (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> View attachment 3702366 View attachment 3702382
> Yes.


Come on man you don't have the awesome totally stressed out plant with all the leaves taco'd.. Like the dude that grows the dankest bud on the site... Your plants don't look totally haggard like they just drug themselves across the finish line...


----------



## bravedave (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Your rhymes are as flaccid as your t5s. Repeating "lol" doesnt make idiocy funny, lout.


You're right. It was mean to have laughed at you and you are not funny.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

More t5 pics. For anyone wondering about size those pots are 15 inches wide. They are a little shorter and wider than a five gallon bucket.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

To the ones calling people stupid for using t5, I've shown that t5 can grow some nice plants.

I issue you a challenge. To do some real growing. 

Grow some plants in the middle of no where. Keep the bugs, animal, and rippers from getting them. Oh and the police to.

Oh yea, and you can only visit them once a month.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> 
> 
> 
> There are actually very few published scientific studies about greenhouse gas emissions from composts, but the two that I have been able to find show that around 2-3% of the original carbon in the manure or green waste is emitted as methane (21X carbon dioxide in GHG potential) and there is also a little nitrous oxideas well (310X carbon dioxide in GHG potential). That doesn’t sound at all bad until you do some math with the values in these publications.
> ...


comparing what I do in my compost to what a manure based compost does is totally different though man.
completely.
I know a LOT about composting, and greenhouse gases.
you need to understand how composting works before posting erroneous stuff like that, what you are doing is misleading people.
done correctly a compost pile emits very, very, little greenhouse gases, done ANAEROBICALLY is where the problems arise, ammonia gas off, methane, etc.
*please make sure you distinctly discern between the two in the future, as one is VERY beneficial to the environment.*
making a manure pile and letting it compost on its on, without turning, without the proper carbon to nitrogen ratio and YES you are 100% correct!
but what we do?
isn't that at all.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> To the ones calling people stupid for using t5, I've shown that t5 can grow some nice plants.
> 
> I issue you a challenge. To do some real growing.
> 
> ...


Im using the t5 agromax uvb. A few plants are just now drying after flowering under this tube (&cxbs).

Im super curious about how these turnout, especially after reading this bit from sam Skunkman over on IC:

"Pate worked for me for 2 decades we ran several grow outs in my greenhouse he designed that tried to prove that UVB improved Cannabis in any way. We could not, We used 3 different clones one CBD and two drug varieties we had 4 examples of each each of the 3 clones they were set up so the first set of three were 1 meter from the UVB lights, the next set was 3 meters, the next set was 6 meters, and the last set was a control with no UVB. They were all in 10 liter pots the same size, about 3 feet when started, with the same soil and watering. The closest to the lights got badly fried, the second set was lightly fried, the third set, not really harmed and the 4th set looked the same as controls. We ran the lights first in veg then in flowering. We used GC-FID to measure the cannabinoids and terpenes and weighed the total biomass, and flowers and stems and leaf fraction of the dry plants after harvest.
RCC and I did organoleptic analysis on the two drug varieties Skunk #1 and a Thai?, the no UVB plants were the best. The closest row to the lights were much less weight and resin, the second row was lightly harmed in a similar way. None of the UVB plants had any more cannabinoids or terpenes or more weight. I did try."
-SamS

His spacing may have been an issue.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

bravedave said:


> You're right. It was mean to have laughed at you and you are not funny.


bro, you're duller than fuck.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Im using the t5 agromax uvb. A few plants are just now drying after flowering under this tube (&cxbs).
> 
> Im super curious about how these turnout, especially after reading this bit from sam Skunkman over on IC:
> 
> ...


I would guess than in a green house they have all the UV they need and the bulb wouldn't do anything.

I haven't done a scientific experiment to prove it but the quality of my bud went up after adding UV.

Other people have noticed to that have smoked it.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I would guess than in a green house they have all the UV they need and the bulb wouldn't do anything.
> 
> I haven't done a scientific experiment to prove it but the quality of my bud went up after adding UV.
> 
> Other people have noticed to that have smoked it.


good point. I'm not sure though that UVB makes it through glass. Ive used other uvb bulbs and felt that the potency got amped a bit. The agromax bulb has more punch and I am really interested in what the effect will be.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> good point. I'm not sure though that UVB makes it through glass. Ive used other uvb bulbs and felt that the potency got amped a bit. The agromax bulb has more punch and I am really interested in what the effect will be.


I was using the agromax 10,000k+ uva. I liked it a lot. I could tell a difference with it.

I use all agromax bulbs. 2-3000k, 2-6500k, 2-pure par, 1-10,000k, and one pure UV.

T5 ho is more efficient now than it was a few years back. 
Take hid. When it degrades it can lose up to 50%.

The new t5 bulbs only lose 10%. That's it. The whole life of the bulb just 10%. They don't have to be changed as often as some claim.

I'm going to mount my t5 ballast outside my cab and see how much cooler they are. 

Hid is hotter than t5. Touch a 400 hid when its good and hot and see what happens. I can touch a t5 bulb.

Reason being that hid has a smaller surface area and concentrates the heat. The t5 spreads it over a larger area.

I know we can crunch numbers and talk about lumens, watts, photons and every other measure of light. I don't think it is quit as simple as people make it out to be.

If I take a 25% efficient light and the plant uses upwards of 100% of that light and a 50% efficient light but the plant only uses 50% of that light there is not much difference. I'm not saying thats true for cob, just an example.

Granted that the new de hid and cob lights might be a better option. Let's take a look at it. If I ran hid I would probably still add a UV t5 bulb. With cob I would probably add a UV and par bulb or 10,000k.

For my small area I don't see it worth it to switch. My t5 produces more than I can smoke and provides plenty enough for tinctures, salves, oil, and edibles.

I'm doing that with less than a $200 investment in my light and less than $20 a month on my electric bill.

Now if I were to blow out a house or start a warehouse grow I would probably use the industry standard double ended hid.

For what I want and doing my t5 works great and no reason for someone to call me stupid over it.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> If I take a 25% efficient light and the plant uses upwards of 100% of that light and a 50% efficient light but the plant only uses 50% of that light there is not much difference. I'm not sayingthats the try for cob, just an example.


So 96.6% of the cxb 3000k 80cri spectral power distribution falls within the PAR range (400nm-700nm).. now what?

Coincidentally, 96.6% is the exact same percentage of power within the PAR range for the T5 GE LongLast 3000k spectrum.


----------



## Slipup420 (Jun 8, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> comparing what I do in my compost to what a manure based compost does is totally different though man.
> completely.
> I know a LOT about composting, and greenhouse gases.
> you need to understand how composting works before posting erroneous stuff like that, what you are doing is misleading people.
> ...


 Who the hell are you trying to kid ??? compost pile will release C02 and methane gas end of story. Its really miss leading C02 is C02 and methane gas is methane gas to say it produces very little depends on the amount of greens ,and established micro life decomposing the material  With normal 2 - 1 ratio that is the normal carbon ratio its going to emit green house gases 
Aerobic composting is a fast procedure there fore it will indeed release faster in to the air Hot composting etc it creates heat much faster then anaerobic sludge type of composting ,, 
This is why so many do it for a faster time table .. 
And lets face it everyone monkeys around on the how to compost but very few get it right its trial n error finding that sweet spot 
So you run less then 2 - 1 carbon ratio so its a slow compost ??? so in theory it takes a very long time possibly creating other bad pathogens as there is not enough N in the compost pile so greens Rot before it composts for use ?? 
in theory there are two categories ,, hot and cold Composting that mostly everyone does and cold and slow composting that some due 
But either way how well is it working out for them or your self ??? are you growing from start to finish with only water ?? No Teas , No Fertilizers ?? how is the weed control doing ?? or bad pathogens doing ? cause that is what happens when you slow compost if its slow composting manure i get to grow barley seed for free possibly carry over E coli and other bad pathogens ?? 
But being your well trained in composting curious what critters do you have in your compost tote ???
. Actually, we'd even go one step further and say that these bugs are absolutely essential to your compost pile and garden soil. They're all part of what we refer to as the _Soil food web _
Remember the golden rule....Nature doesn't make mistakes , All of her creatures, big and small, serve a very specific purpose (most of which we'll never know). Therefore, Do you have any in your pile ??


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I was using the agromax 10,000k+ uva. I liked it a lot. I could tell a difference with it.
> 
> I use all agromax bulbs. 2-3000k, 2-6500k, 2-pure par, 1-10,000k, and one pure UV.
> 
> ...


Ill put up some pics of a recent plant i grew under older v29s...seriously huge plant w huge, icy buds. They had about 4weeks of agromax pure uv


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Who the hell are you trying to kid ??? compost pile will release C02 and methane gas end of story. Its really miss leading C02 is C02 and methane gas is methane gas to say it produces very little depends on the amount of greens ,and established micro life decomposing the material  With normal 2 - 1 ratio that is the normal carbon ratio its going to emit green house gases
> Aerobic composting is a fast procedure there fore it will indeed release faster in to the air Hot composting etc it creates heat much faster then anaerobic sludge type of composting ,,
> This is why so many do it for a faster time table ..
> And lets face it everyone monkeys around on the how to compost but very few get it right its trial n error finding that sweet spot
> ...


first off, like I said, YOU need to know wtf compsting is.
NOBODY does a 2/1 ratio.
NOBODY.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Who the hell are you trying to kid ???
> But either way how well is it working out for them or your self ??? are you growing from start to finish with only water ?? No Teas , No Fertilizers ?? how is the weed control doing ?? or bad pathogens doing ? cause that is what happens when you slow compost if its slow composting manure i get to grow barley seed for free possibly carry over E coli and other bad pathogens ??
> But being your well trained in composting curious what critters do you have in your compost tote ???
> . Actually, we'd even go one step further and say that these bugs are absolutely essential to your compost pile and garden soil. They're all part of what we refer to as the _Soil food web _
> ...


https://www.rollitup.org/t/greasemonkeys-compost-pile.893592/


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

DraculaReactor said:


> Mongo you are the saltiest dude on this website under Buck, (this is Queece by the way oh shit wuddup). We are in the business of generating photons. You are essentially using Thomas Edison's light bulb because you are afraid of being wrong. My chronic is balls-out incredible, anyone with eyes can see that. I use no air conditioning and bulk hydroponic nutrients to achieve that. If you're going to talk about g/w, you need to factor in your mini-split if you want to be honest. This is 1115 watts from the wall, fans, light, everything. You tell me this isn't impressive for less wattage than a space heater? That's absurd. Your methods are unsound. It's lonely at the top.


Those look like doo doo. 

Do you know what heat stress is? 

Those look mediocre at best. 

Sorry man. Just being truthful. Its OK though. That looks like a good foundation to build on. I'm sure you will get better with time. 

That is if you can learn a little humility.

Had a best friend I grew up with. His dad was 5th group special forces. Green Beret.

He was going to a shooting event with local law enforcement. I asked him why he was going because he could out shoot everyone there.

He told me to always go with an open mind. To always act like the other person knows more. Be a sponge, you never know when you will learn something.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Who the hell are you trying to kid ??? compost pile will release C02 and methane gas end of story. Its really miss leading C02 is C02 and methane gas is methane gas to say it produces very little depends on the amount of greens ,and established micro life decomposing the material  With normal 2 - 1 ratio that is the normal carbon ratio its going to emit green house gases
> Aerobic composting is a fast procedure there fore it will indeed release faster in to the air Hot composting etc it creates heat much faster then anaerobic sludge type of composting ,,
> This is why so many do it for a faster time table ..
> And lets face it everyone monkeys around on the how to compost but very few get it right its trial n error finding that sweet spot
> ...


Did you see the pics I posted?

Water only. Humus based with compost and castings. 

The ocean produces green house gases. I will repeat what I said earlier.

Do you own a car and what gas mileage does it get? Do you own multiple TV and electronics you don't need that contribute to green house gases?

Your car is far more worse than a compost pile. Compost is what makes the earth turn. You ever been in the woods? 

What ever dude. You know damn well there is nothing wrong with a compost pile. 

Here is a water only grow.
 
Here is my water only, no till garden.
 
This is a water only guerilla grow. Visit once a month. 
    
Keep on. Show how much you really don't know.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Jun 8, 2016)

Composting has become a real problem in China today, all of those damn compost piles!!!


----------



## Slipup420 (Jun 8, 2016)

Guys guys there are some growers that have fine tuned there growing styles but for many there not even close hence the tea craze to complete a organic grow ..
yeah i don't know much now do i  here my blind soil compost mix  no amendments would you be so kind to show us your soil test oh i forgot you are probably one of them that blindly amend soil not really knowing what soil has or needs Not to bad for winging it or not knowing what i am doing


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Guys guys there are some growers that have fine tuned there growing styles but for many there not even close hence the tea craze to complete a organic grow ..
> yeah i don't know much now do i  here my blind soil compost mix  no amendments would you be so kind to show us your soil test oh i forgot you are probably one of them that blindly amend soil not really knowing what soil has or needs Not to bad for winging it or not knowing what i am doing  View attachment 3703166


your #'s look pretty nice. 

Do you follow Milky Joe or the Advanced eco guys on IC? They have a very decent thread going with discussions on ratios and amendments.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> So 96.6% of the cxb 3000k 80cri spectral power distribution falls within the PAR range (400nm-700nm).. now what?
> 
> Coincidentally, 96.6% is the exact same percentage of power within the PAR range for the T5 GE LongLast 3000k spectrum.


When will you underdtand that I don't give a flying fuck and happy doing what I'm doing?

My t5 let's me smoke this.
 
How can you argue with that?
This is what I kept out of my last run. I gave almost half of it away. (Dinafem deep cheese. Smelled like cheese, locker room, baby poop, and puke.). I didn't like it. I gave it to a woman that needed it.
 
 

Horrible trim job I know. I don't sell and I like a little sugar leaf on mine.

Those nugs are hard.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Im using the t5 agromax uvb. A few plants are just now drying after flowering under this tube (&cxbs).
> 
> Im super curious about how these turnout, especially after reading this bit from sam Skunkman over on IC:
> 
> ...


Well duh, he said himself he fried the poor things, then he complains about lousy returns because he failed to harden the plants off to the UV? 

His study conclusively proved he didn't know how to grow his plants with UV, not that UV sucks.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> When will you underdtand that I don't give a flying fuck and happy doing what I'm doing?
> 
> My t5 let's me smoke this.
> View attachment 3703165
> ...


Too many people here have utterly failed to learn lessons of 'horses for courses' and the perfect being the enemy of the good. 

Or in your case, great- that's plenty of damn fine nug. Better than most of these loud mouths manage with their nuclear sized SE HPS, lol


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

Slipup420 said:


> Guys guys there are some growers that have fine tuned there growing styles but for many there not even close hence the tea craze to complete a organic grow ..
> yeah i don't know much now do i  here my blind soil compost mix  no amendments would you be so kind to show us your soil test oh i forgot you are probably one of them that blindly amend soil not really knowing what soil has or needs Not to bad for winging it or not knowing what i am doing  View attachment 3703166


Lmao!

Are you f'ing kidding me. I had a test done a couple years back when I bought this place. It gave me a baseline.

You are actually sitting here talking smack, showing pieces of paper and numbers.

I'm putting up multiple pics of proof of what I've done.

I'm here to tell you that what looks good on paper doesn't always work in the real world. If you spent any time in it you would know.

I showed you pics of several different water only grows. Those are different environments. One is a garden with different types of plants.

I don't play around. I feed my family with what I grow, catch, and hunt.

If you think I'm blindly walking around and pulling stuff like that off then you're crazy.

If you want to go water only I got a good book for you to read.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Too many people here have utterly failed to learn lessons of 'horses for courses' and the perfect being the enemy of the good.
> 
> Or in your case, great- that's plenty of damn fine nug. Better than most of these loud mouths manage with their nuclear sized SE HPS, lol


Thank you. Means a lot. I think highly of you.

Maybe one day I will do a large hid grow. I can only imagine how big they would get. Lol.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> When will you underdtand that I don't give a flying fuck and happy doing what I'm doing?


What about the point I was replying to where you were suggesting that a greater percentage of light was utilized? Why would you say things like that, then resort to this type of reply after someone calls it out? Don't make absurd implications if you don't want to be called out on them. It has nothing to do with your choices. You tried to imply that your lamps have more usable light, and I showed you that's false. There's literally the same exact percentage of spectral power between 400nm-700nm for the compared cob and T5.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Maybe one day I will do a large hid grow. I can only imagine how big they would get. Lol.


Make sure you don't shy away from the SE hps lamps. Tried and true for sure. Im doing my first DE test run now. Yea there nice, but I'm finding same as or better results with the SE lamps. Im not talking yield either, I don't grow for yield being main factor (cant to stay in this trade that way where i live). Strain is going to play a huge roll just like always.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> What about the point I was replying to where you were suggesting that a greater percentage of light was utilized? Why would you say things like that, then resort to this type of reply after someone calls it out? Don't make absurd implications if you don't want to be called out on them. It has nothing to do with your choices. You tried to imply that your lamps have more usable light, and I showed you that's false.


I wasnt making absurd accusations. I made a statement. How do you measure how much light your plant is using?

Going by grams per watt? You can tell me that cobs pull well over a gram per watt and I believe it.

Gram per watt (gpw) is not accurate. Its not that simple. You need to account for how many hours were used to get that figure.

You get 1 gpw in six month and I get .5 in three, who did better?

So you're a little more efficient. Big whoop. I would be willing to wager that with my t5 setup the quality is better.

Is it placebo? Don't know, don't care. You remember the movie "Shallow Hal?". He saw that big girl as beautiful to him. His buddy got the spell removed and jack black was mad.

He asked his friend about his perfect woman. He said super woman. Jack black asked what if people made fun of him. 

See Hal saw a beautiful woman and that's all that mattered. 

Placebo or does my setup make it better? Doesn't matter. To me its better and I'm happy.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Make sure you don't shy away from the SE hps lamps. Tried and true for sure. Im doing my first DE test run now. Yea there nice, but I'm finding same as or better results with the SE lamps. Im not talking yield either, I don't grow for yield being main factor (cant to stay in this trade that way where i live). Strain is going to play a huge roll just like always.


I just meant since I push this t5 so hard I can only imagine growing under hid.

If I did it would be a combo of hps and mh or cmh.

Let's say a 600 mh and 600 hps in a 4x4. With some UV. 

I would only be able to grow four plants due to legal reasons. 

They would be trees though.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Thank you. Means a lot. I think highly of you.
> 
> Maybe one day I will do a large hid grow. I can only imagine how big they would get. Lol.


Fuck HID. I'll show you how to grow monsters under LED!


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I just meant since I push this t5 so hard I can only imagine growing under hid.
> 
> If I did it would be a combo of hps and mh or cmh.
> 
> ...


Oh, look! Here's a COB LED tree now;


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Fuck HID. I'll show you how to grow monsters under LED!


That's cool. I wouldn't mind going that way. I will. More and more competition in the cob market.

I'll give it another year or so and prices should keep coming down.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Oh, look! Here's a COB LED tree now;
> View attachment 3703196


Though about turning my t5 vertical. I got two of them. One on each door of my cab. 

It would give me a 4x6 foot area on the back wall to put a screen.

Let's see. 864 watt vertical t5 grow in a 2x4 cab?


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Fuck HID. I'll show you how to grow monsters under LED!


Fuck T5. HID is much better.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

RM3 said:


> All BS aside, Folks the Pure UV bulb is dangerous, please heed all warnings !!!!
> 
> I now have a sun burn
> 
> tread lightly


 Yes they will burn you and plants.

This is how I know the ants are getting enough light.
There is some bleaching.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Well duh, he said himself he fried the poor things, then he complains about lousy returns because he failed to harden the plants off to the UV?
> 
> His study conclusively proved he didn't know how to grow his plants with UV, not that UV sucks.


Im wondering how they got fried at 36"? I asked him. Ill let you know if i get a reply


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Though about turning my t5 vertical. I got two of them. One on each door of my cab.
> 
> It would give me a 4x6 foot area on the back wall to put a screen.
> 
> Let's see. 864 watt vertical t5 grow in a 2x4 cab?


Fuck yeah, kill it! You could pull a pound or more, easy lol


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Im wondering how they got fried at 36"? I asked him. Ill let you know if i get a reply


Failure to properly harden the plants off to the intensity of the harder radiation caused them to fry. Same reason you harden indoor vegetable starts off to sunlight gradually. Poor husbandry interfered with the variable he was attempting to test for.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Fuck yeah, kill it! You could pull a pound or more, easy lol


I may just do that. I've been wondering what to do on this next run.


----------



## SPLFreak808 (Jun 8, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Make sure you don't shy away from the SE hps lamps. Tried and true for sure. Im doing my first DE test run now. Yea there nice, but I'm finding same as or better results with the SE lamps. Im not talking yield either, I don't grow for yield being main factor (cant to stay in this trade that way where i live). Strain is going to play a huge roll just like always.


 how many hours have you put on that DE so far?


----------



## SPLFreak808 (Jun 8, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Though about turning my t5 vertical. I got two of them. One on each door of my cab.
> 
> It would give me a 4x6 foot area on the back wall to put a screen.
> 
> Let's see. 864 watt vertical t5 grow in a 2x4 cab?


You should try a run like that!


----------



## a mongo frog (Jun 8, 2016)

SPLFreak808 said:


> how many hours have you put on that DE so far?


636 i guess. Im 53 days in on 12/12. So i multiplied 53x12, I'm pretty fucking bad at math so i used my phone calculator. Phillips bulb.


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Failure to properly harden the plants off to the intensity of the harder radiation caused them to fry. Same reason you garden indoor starts off to sunlight gradually. Poor husbandry interfered with the variable he was attempting to test for.


What type of uvb bulb could fry a mj plant @36"?


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> What type of uvb bulb could fry a mj plant @36"?


Mercury vapor.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

This kind of bulb to be exact I have two sitting here, not sure who you asked but I will chime in and it did burn my plants.

http://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-uv-t5-bulb-4-foot

My 2x4 is actually more like 2.5x4.5 so I used the 3 foot recommendation to cover this area because there was just no way at 2', it would burn my hand holding it at the canopy.

I'm, not trying to sound like @ss although I probably will for saying this, but it is/was nice to see someone more experienced than myself have some of the same issues and observations as me.


----------



## pookat (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Mercury vapor.


And thats the reason i have bad eyesight.
Damn good lights, had mine about 2 foot away but started uv at pre-seedling stage to get them used to it. had my 2 250w for nine year,still gave a sun tan, then one blew last week, down scaling now to 2 10w U.V Led 365-670nm.
U.V.a encourages mold /mildew spores etc.
U.V b kills most things including people,
if your gonna use *U.V *of *any kind* *GET SHADES* at least....spoken with 35yrs experience


----------



## pookat (Jun 8, 2016)

this P.D.F is an old reason for using U.V on mj plants
as usual the last paragraph is the bit to read.


----------



## bravedave (Jun 8, 2016)

A tidbit...

http://www.hightimes.com/read/grow-hack-how-use-uv-lamp-increase-thc


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

@RM3

Since the thread is just titled light........

My young and new to growing curious mind wanted to ask a question if that's cool, I don't care who replies let keep talking light here.

Would there be a time between veg and flower where more watts is better for the plant than the other? ie: more watts in veg vs flower or vice versa..............? Or does it not really matter......? I am not talking spectrum, just pure watts.............

Cheers


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> @RM3
> 
> Since the thread is just titled light........
> 
> ...


Watts are completely irrelevant; the plant sees PPfD. Increasing light intensity needs to be done gradually enough so the plant doesn't respond badly; this can include increasing intensity in veg, a slow ramp up in bloom, etc.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Watts are completely irrelevant; the plant sees PPfD. Increasing light intensity needs to be done gradually enough so the plant doesn't respond badly; this can include increasing intensity in veg, a slow ramp up in bloom, etc.


So let's say theoretically, you switch a 54wX8 bulb T5, for a 4 COB LED with monos running cree 3590's and cree reds and blues. The LED is pulling a legit 400W at the wall...................I am purposely trying to be vague so this does not turn into a brand a vs brand b debate I know you like to be very specific but please bare with me if this is enough info to answer the question.........


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## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> So let's say theoretically, you switch a 54wX8 bulb T5, for a 4 COB LED with monos running cree 3590's and cree reds and blues. The LED is pulling a legit 400W at the wall...................I am purposely trying to be vague so this does not turn into a brand a vs brand b debate I know you like to be very specific but please bare with me if this is enough info to answer the question.........


So that T5 fixture is producing light at around 28-30% efficiency. MY 4 COB LED fixture pulls 224W from the wall, with no monos. It's producing light in excess of 56% efficiency, or basically double the performance with half the watts. The plants will respond just about the same to both.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> So that T5 fixture is producing light at around 28-30% efficiency. MY 4 COB LED fixture pulls 224W from the wall, with no monos. It's producing light in excess of 56% efficiency, or basically double the performance with half the watts. The plants will respond just about the same to both.


In theory the LED would run cooler?

I appreciate the response........


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## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> In theory the LED would run cooler?
> 
> I appreciate the response........


Mine certainly do.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Mine certainly do.


Perfect this is the goal of this next adventure for my 2x4. 

Thanks again........

I need to get my game right before I can walk into the vert section and start asking questions. You guys don't fucken play around and there's a lot less BS over here then elsewhere the way it should be..........


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## churchhaze (Jun 8, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> So that T5 fixture is producing light at around 28-30% efficiency.


Making up lies. You pulled those numbers out of your ass. Please show me your calculations showing 28-30% efficient.

Why do you have to lie to make T5HO sound better than it is?


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 8, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Making up lies. You pulled those numbers out of your ass. Please show me your calculations showing 28-30% efficient.
> 
> Why do you have to lie to make T5HO sound better than it is?



Welcome back bro


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## ttystikk (Jun 9, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Making up lies. You pulled those numbers out of your ass. Please show me your calculations showing 28-30% efficient.
> 
> Why do you have to lie to make T5HO sound better than it is?


They're similar to SE HPS.


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## churchhaze (Jun 9, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> They're similar to SE HPS.


I calculated LER for the 3000k spectrum of GE LongLast to be 361lm/W. It's 54W T5HO version has a luminous efficacy of 93lm/W. That makes it 25.8% efficient. You can't just make numbers up as you feel. *Please show me which T5HO is 28-30% efficient and how you came up with that range*.

Why do you feel the need to make shit up? You don't like the real numbers?


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## churchhaze (Jun 9, 2016)

If T5HO was 30% efficient, it'd be decent. Single ended HPS wipes the floor with T5HO. It's no contest.


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## platt (Jun 9, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> Welcome back bro


well i never was a sommelier..^ but..we can smell the scent of ardour & fervent from overseas


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## Straw Man (Jun 9, 2016)

@ttystikk
Yes we used the correct UVB lights and we had a good UV meter.
Glass in a greenhouse stops 95% of the UVB.
What issue with harding off? If I stick a plant started in the greenhouse outdoors where there is UVB I do not see any negative effects, except if it is colder outdoors. Even with the work it was only the ones that were to close and maybe got to much UVB that were harmed, but none got any benefit at any UVB level.
-SamS

Originally Posted by *neverforget4/20* 
very informative. Im wondering if you used any meter to measure the UVB you were getting at those distances. Is it possible that the plants were already receiving UVB through the greenhouse ?

Also could there have been an issue with hardening off the plants to uv exposure?


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## Straw Man (Jun 9, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> This kind of bulb to be exact I have two sitting here, not sure who you asked but I will chime in and it did burn my plants.
> 
> http://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-uv-t5-bulb-4-foot
> 
> ...


Weird . I have that bulb, been using it and havent seen any such issues. I used it at 18" and currently about 24".

Im limiting the exposure to a couple hours a day. However i have inadvertently left it on for a full 12.5hrs a couple times.


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## Evil-Mobo (Jun 9, 2016)

Straw Man said:


> Weird . I have that bulb, been using it and havent seen any such issues. I used it at 18" and currently about 24".
> 
> Im limiting the exposure to a couple hours a day. However i have inadvertently left it on for a full 12.5hrs a couple times.


It was my fault I left it on for two full cycles after testing for a couple of hours and did not take the bulb as seriously as I should have. All I am saying is you have to be careful it's not the bulbs fault it was on me .


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## RM3 (Jun 10, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> If T5HO was 30% efficient, it'd be decent. Single ended HPS wipes the floor with T5HO. It's no contest.


Well here is yet another grower usin T5's and selling a book LOL


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## Thorhax (Jun 10, 2016)

COBs all day every day. i put them everywhere. it fits my grow style and allows me to use minimal equipment

I'm sure if @RM3 used COBs instead of T5s (you can match your same spectrum I'm sure) he would get more of a yield because there is just more light available. ~50%([email protected]) efficiency vs. 25% (T5 bulbs)

as i used better light my yields were drastically increasing, though i was also getting better at training and perfecting my feeding schedule.
.     


i stared getting 4 ounces out of a 4x4 with about 300(china shit lights) true watts of led. my latest runs i got 19 ounces from a 3x4 area using 500 true watts(VERO291 3000k COB and 2 sgs-160s), a little over 3 pounds(low yield due to problems) from from a 4x9 area using 1200w true watts(VERO2916 3000k COB and 8 4000kCOB), 9 ounces from a 2x2 area using 200w VERO293000k COB, and 15 ounces from a 2x4 area using 400w 3500k CXB3950.


i notice i get better quality from the rooms that have more blue light in them and plants under bluer lights directly vs redder lights.


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## ttystikk (Jun 10, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> COBs all day every day. i put them everywhere. it fits my grow style and allows me to use minimal equipment
> 
> I'm sure if @RM3 used COBs instead of T5s (you can match your same spectrum I'm sure) he would get more of a yield because there is just more light available. ~50%([email protected]) efficiency vs. 25% (T5 bulbs)
> 
> ...


Fuck, dude- which part of 'he don't care about yield maximization' are you having trouble with?

Everyone gets to grow their own way, for their own reasons, to get the results THEY want. Even you. So instead of the endless harangue about yields, maybe you should ask a few questions.

Who knows? You might actually learn something.


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## RM3 (Jun 10, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Fuck, dude- which part of 'he don't care about yield maximization' are you having trouble with?
> 
> Everyone gets to grow their own way, for their own reasons, to get the results THEY want. Even you. So instead of the endless harangue about yields, maybe you should ask a few questions.
> 
> Who knows? You might actually learn something.


don't understand why they don't get that I count my yields in beans


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Well here is yet another grower usin T5's and selling a book LOL


So that's 1300W of electricity in how much area?


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Fuck, dude- which part of 'he don't care about yield maximization' are you having trouble with?
> 
> Everyone gets to grow their own way, for their own reasons, to get the results THEY want. Even you. So instead of the endless harangue about yields, maybe you should ask a few questions.
> 
> Who knows? You might actually learn something.


Maybe you should realize that we already knew how to grow pot before RM3 showed up. You're in a trance. Snap out of it.

RM3 should be taking lessons from thorhax, not the other way around. One of them is stuck in the 80s still.


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## mauricem00 (Jun 10, 2016)

this debate about HIDs vs LEDs seems to be and endless circle. the led crowd seems to stick with exaggerated claims that plague that industry. based on data from cree and meanwell the actual efficiency is around 35% and not the 50-56% that some people claim. HIDs have heat problems that may make them inappropriate for a stealth closet grow.the best grow light depends on an individuals situation.


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> actual efficiency is around 35%


Bullshit. Show how you came up with this number. Why does everyone think they can just make up numbers? The data from CREE is where get our numbers from.

(btw, this thread is mostly about T5 vs HPS)


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## mauricem00 (Jun 10, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> COBs all day every day. i put them everywhere. it fits my grow style and allows me to use minimal equipment
> 
> I'm sure if @RM3 used COBs instead of T5s (you can match your same spectrum I'm sure) he would get more of a yield because there is just more light available. ~50%([email protected]) efficiency vs. 25% (T5 bulbs)
> 
> ...


 interesting. the latest NASA spectrum is a combination of cool white (6500k) and deep red (660nm) leds.some growers are getting 1GPW using CFLs. guess there is a lot more to yield than just lighting


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## RM3 (Jun 10, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> The data from CREE is where get our numbers from.


He just said that data is skewed


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

RM3 said:


> He just said that data is skewed


No he didn't. He said:



mauricem00 said:


> based on data from cree and meanwell the actual efficiency is around 35%


Pay attention. He's wrong. Based on the data from cree and meanwell, efficiency is how we calculate it. Not how you guess.


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## ttystikk (Jun 10, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> this debate about HIDs vs LEDs seems to be and endless circle. the led crowd seems to stick with exaggerated claims that plague that industry. based on data from cree and meanwell the actual efficiency is around 35% and not the 50-56% that some people claim. HIDs have heat problems that may make them inappropriate for a stealth closet grow.the best grow light depends on an individuals situation.


Your numbers are inaccurate. Actual COB LED efficiency figures are independently verifiable and they check out. 

It's all in the application.


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## ttystikk (Jun 10, 2016)

RM3 said:


> don't understand why they don't get that I count my yields in beans


Because they don't bother to ask.


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## mauricem00 (Jun 10, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> No he didn't. He said:
> 
> 
> 
> Pay attention. He's wrong. Based on the data from cree and meanwell, efficiency is how we calculate it. Not how you guess.


.my calculations are based on data from cree and Maxwell they are not a guess. the math is pretty simple.would love to see your data and calculations.as well as the source for that data. numbers do not lie but salesmen do


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> .my calculations are based on data from cree and Maxwell they are not a guess. the math is pretty simple.would love to see your data and calculations.as well as the source for that data. numbers do not lie but salesmen do




http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html

If you go to that link and put in cxb3590 and put in CB bin, for 1.4A, you get 157.8lm/W.

Using the SPD from the spreadsheet, I calculated LER of 3000k 80cri is 327.69lm/W.

Radiant efficiency = (157.8lm/W) / (327.69lm/W) = 48.2%

I calculated 96.6% of the digitized SPD to be within 400nm-700nm. That means that at 1.4A, it has a PAR efficiency of 46.5%. (not 35%)



The digitization I did wasn't perfect obviously, but I get the same LER as almost everyone else who's calculated it. (327-328lm/W)


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## mauricem00 (Jun 10, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Bullshit. Show how you came up with this number. Why does everyone think they can just make up numbers? The data from CREE is where get our numbers from.
> 
> (btw, this thread is mostly about T5 vs HPS)


 the charts are there run the numbers yourself. maxwell drivers operate at 90% efficiency at the current range being used


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> the charts are there run the numbers yourself. maxwell drivers operate at 90% efficiency at the current range being used


It's mean well drivers, and the efficiency of the driver is independent from the efficiency of the leds.

To find total efficiency of your entire lighting setup it's: total efficiency = radiant efficiency * driver efficiency.

My mean well drivers are 94% efficient, however that's irrelevant at finding the efficiency of the cobs.


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> the charts are there run the numbers yourself.


You should probably take a better look at the charts yourself. Look on page 14 of the datasheet you posted at the chart of *Relative Luminous Flux vs Current. *Then you will understand what to do with http://pct.cree.com/dt/index.html.

These calculations are straight from the datasheet you posted.


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

Radiant efficiency = luminous efficacy of source / luminous efficacy of radiation (LER)







Since they only give you lumens and don't give you LER, you have to calculate it yourself. That's where digitizing the spectrum is needed. Many members of RIU have independently calculated LER of these spectrum and have come up with the exact same result.


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## ttystikk (Jun 10, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> the charts are there run the numbers yourself. maxwell drivers operate at 90% efficiency at the current range being used


No, you need to look up the specific drivers. Mine run at 96%. And there's more variables you aren't considering, making your 'calculations' a hash of guesswork. 

But make up anything you want, bro


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## Thorhax (Jun 10, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Fuck, dude- which part of 'he don't care about yield maximization' are you having trouble with?
> 
> Everyone gets to grow their own way, for their own reasons, to get the results THEY want. Even you. So instead of the endless harangue about yields, maybe you should ask a few questions.
> 
> Who knows? You might actually learn something.


i wasn't trying to force COBs down his throat... chill out. I've read his book, and watch his threads and I'm not telling him he is wrong? obviously he grows good weed.... my post wasn't an attack of any kind? so why the hate?

this is a thread called "light???" i was showcasing my lights. don't include me in your guy's drama.


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## ttystikk (Jun 10, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> i wasn't trying to force COBs down his throat... chill out. I've read his book, and watch his threads and I'm not telling him he is wrong? obviously he grows good weed.... my post wasn't an attack of any kind? so why the hate?
> 
> this is a thread called "light???" i was showcasing my lights. don't include me in your guy's drama.


You mentioned yield, which told me you weren't informed about his goals. 

If we've gotten off on the wrong foot, please accept my apologies and let's move forward.


----------



## Thorhax (Jun 10, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> You mentioned yield, which told me you weren't informed about his goals.
> 
> If we've gotten off on the wrong foot, please accept my apologies and let's move forward.


sounds good to me, maybe one day we shall smoke and laugh at this.

i wonder, do you guys think yield and quality are inverse? just in my personally endeavors i have found them to go hand in hand. with my biggest yield i got my best crop of cotton candy ever.


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## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

He is wrong. If he was just some noob using T5s it would be one thing, but the guy is selling books and acting like an expert on growing weed, yet recommends that everyone buy T5, even for flowering.

I'm not trying to force anything down RM3's throat either, but I also want to make it clear to the noobs listening to him that he's not all he's cracked up to be. You really shouldn't be encouraging noobs to flower with T5.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 10, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> @RM3 i am just providing insight into a COB grow. not trying to tell you how to do what.
> 
> sounds good to me, maybe one day we shall smoke and laugh at this.
> 
> ...


I never said quality and yield were mutually exclusive, I happen to agree with you.


----------



## churchhaze (Jun 10, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> do you guys think yield and quality are inverse?


No. I think they're correlated, but not inversely. (More yield for a given pheno generally means better quality)


----------



## Straw Man (Jun 10, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> No. I think they're correlated, but not inversely. (More yield for a given pheno generally means better quality)


I've wondered whether timing harvest so that chop occurs at the time of largest bud size coincides with time of highest flavor and potency.


----------



## Evil-Mobo (Jun 10, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> He is wrong. If he was just some noob using T5s it would be one thing, but the guy is selling books and acting like an expert on growing weed, yet recommends that everyone buy T5, even for flowering.
> 
> I'm not trying to force anything down RM3's throat either, but I also want to make it clear to the noobs listening to him that he's not all he's cracked up to be. You really shouldn't be encouraging noobs to flower with T5.


The role they fill for me right now is allowing me to mess with the spectrum with ease by just swapping a light bulb or two, great for the veg tent, and "if" I need or want to I can toss an auto or two in the veg tent and flower without changing a thing and leaving my flower tent alone. They are just flexible in a way that "to me" is easier than tearing apart a diff light to swap an LED.......

With the UV bulb gone my T5 is running no warmer than the 4 COB tasty LED that was in there. Coincidentally with the current bulb setup my plants are vegging much better than the last time under the tasty which I find odd because this goes against what all the LED guys would say right lol. I am not a fanboy either way, what will work best for me and my situation is all I'm after. I like my setups to be flexible as well with ease. 

After some bulb swaps yesterday this is what my 8 bulb T5 is running:

- Phillips 4100K (2) 54wHO
- Agromax Bloom Spectrum 3000K (2) 54wHO
- Agromax 6400K (2) 54wHO
- Agromax Pure Par Veg (1) 54wHO
- Agromax 10K Finisher (1) 54wHO


----------



## mauricem00 (Jul 6, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Like I said in another thread, if I can save just one noob from spending their startup budget on the crap you suggest, I'll have done this forum a service. The good tubes are 32 bucks a piece?...


 if your paying $32 for tubes you are getting ripped off. good quality commercial tubes cost 4 to 6 dollars each. many growers use T5s with good results. the garden centers and hydro stores in my area don't sell leds. everyone buys HIDs or florescent. I started with 2G11 CFLS and moved to F54T5s when I was able to expand my grow room.I tried LEDs and did not like them. most of us use what works best for us and are looking for ways to improve our grows. I find it interesting that even high end LED grow light makers can't agree on the right spectrum. some sell 2 band leds others sell wight leds. they all claim to have the best spectrum but a noob may be getting ripped of spending that kind of money on a grow light so your not really saving anyone.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 6, 2016)

mauricem00 said:


> if your paying $32 for tubes you are getting ripped off. good quality commercial tubes cost 4 to 6 dollars each. many growers use T5s with good results. the garden centers and hydro stores in my area don't sell leds. everyone buys HIDs or florescent. I started with 2G11 CFLS and moved to F54T5s when I was able to expand my grow room.I tried LEDs and did not like them. most of us use what works best for us and are looking for ways to improve our grows. I find it interesting that even high end LED grow light makers can't agree on the right spectrum. some sell 2 band leds others sell wight leds. they all claim to have the best spectrum but a noob may be getting ripped of spending that kind of money on a grow light so your not really saving anyone.


High end uvb tubes cost more but are worth it.


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## mauricem00 (Jul 6, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> High end uvb tubes cost more but are worth it.


 have not tried using uvb tubes yet. have read that adding them near the end of flowering increases THC content but have not tried it yet. if you are only running them for the last 2 weeks of flowering they should last a very long time. one led maker add T8 uv tubes to their light.but this seems like something advanced grower would try.not new growers and it seems like everything else would need to be dialed in before stressing your plants with these lights. I have tried flora suns which cost about $11 and they seem to provide a slight improvement in yeild


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## Odin* (Jul 12, 2016)

After reading the "midday depression" portion of the first post I felt it was necessary for me to "intervene".

Exceeding a plants "light saturation" has little to no negative effect on photosynthesis. It is the heat associated with light that causes "midday depression". This is fact and explored here-

"In a growth chamber that simulated field growth conditions, photosynthesis declined dramatically when the temperature was higher than 32 °C. Photosynthesis was also reduced when photosynthetically active radiation (PAR) exceeded *the saturating point of Oncidium. Gower Ramsey, which is about 250 μmol·m-2·s-1*. However, *the reduction was slight when PAR was under 500 μmol·m-2·s-1*. Daily photosynthetic patterns were changed when Oncidium Gower Ramsey was grown under different environments. By regression, we found that MD was not directly associated with PAR within the range of 0–400 μmol·m-2·s-1. *By contrast, photosynthesis was significantly reduced when temperature was higher than 32 °C.* This explains the observation of greater photosynthetic reduction and earlier occurrence of MD when OncidiumGower Ramsey was grown in rain-shelter rather than in phytotron and growth chamber, since temperature in the rain-shelter was not controlled, while the others were controlled at 25 °C. *When Oncidium Gower Ramsey was moved from 35 °C to 25 °C, the photosynthetic depression was relieved.*"

Link- http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/41/4/1056.4.short



This happens due to stomatal constriction as the plant attempts to hold on to as much water as possible (it stops "sweating"). This also results in cellular depletion of CO2. Closed stomata, low internal CO2 volume, "droop", the plant halts photosynthesis, it is essentially "sleeping". This is also fact, explored here-


"Light - exerts strong control. *In general: light = open; dark = closed*. ... (c) reduces internal CO2 levels which stimulates opening (see below)."

"Carbon dioxide - intracellular level is most critical. This is an important regulatory control. 
lo CO2 (i.e., during the day, used by photosynthesis) = open (stoma)
hi CO2 (i.e., at night, produced during respiration) = closed (stoma)"

"Temperature - increased temperatures usually increase stomatal action, presumably to open them for evaporative cooling. *If the temperature becomes too high the stomata close* due to water stress and increased CO2 that results from respiration."

Link- http://employees.csbsju.edu/ssaupe/biol116/Botany/plant_gas_exchange.htm


By subjecting your plants to a 30 minute "lights out" period in the middle of your 12 hours "day" period, you are effectively imposing an "artificial" midday depression upon your plants, the very thing you are attempting to avoid. Also, by running your temps above 77F/25C (+ or - 2F depending on plant/strain) you are recreating the catalyst of midday depression, excessive heat. Only, this is not just at "midday", it is for the entirety of the "day" as this is the constant throughout your "lights on" period. So, not only are you forcing "midday depression" for 30 minutes, but you are intentionally subjecting them to "all day depression" with high temps.



Another negative effect of the high temps is that it lowers the plants light saturation threshold. High temps lower the plants ability to use "light" and perform photosynthesis. This is why we want to lower temps, maintain good air circulation over the leaves, and increase the availability of CO2. This increases the plants light saturation threshold, boosts it's metabolism, which means increased rate of photosynthesis.

CO2 also assists in maintaining temps at the canopy level (hopefully you have you meter mounted just above). Little known fact, CO2 is less heat conductive than O2. This means that the heat from your lights (which wants to rise anyways) is "circulated" easier/faster through the low CO2 air above the canopy, the heat has more difficulty "penetrating" the high CO2 air at and below the canopy.





Not attempting to knock anyone's methods, I just don't want any newbies to be steered in the wrong direction. We are all always learning, anything that benefits our mind and grow should be appreciated. I believe that even in "researching", many misinterpret, or simply do not understand, the research findings as they are presented.


----------



## cannawizard (Jul 13, 2016)

Odin* said:


> We are all always learning, anything that benefits our mind and grow should be appreciated. I believe that even in "researching", many misinterpret, or simply do not understand, the research findings as they are presented.


good info, "temp variations" in-regards to "light saturation" ~

cheers


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## RM3 (Jul 14, 2016)

Odin* said:


> Not attempting to knock anyone's methods, I just don't want any newbies to be steered in the wrong direction. We are all always learning, anything that benefits our mind and grow should be appreciated. I believe that even in "researching", many misinterpret, or simply do not understand, the research findings as they are presented.


Which is why it's in the Advanced section


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 16, 2016)

Personally I wouldn't use 4' fluorescents simply due to the inconvenient shape. Who wants to mess with a bunch of light sabers? CFLs are nice and compact, therefore easy to transport and dispose of. It's also a lot easier to get fairly high intensity with CFLs. With regular tubes you have to put them practically touching each other for usable intensity. Big ol' tubes just aren't practical to work with. I also only use the CFLs for veg and first 2 weeks of flower. The COBs just perform a lot better in flowering than fluorescents.

However, if somebody likes 4' tubes for whatever reason and can pack enough close together it will certainly work. Just that they better stock up because I'm sure regular fluorescents will eventually be banned in most places. I would recommend the type that has a reflector built into one side of the tube. It avoids having to build a reflector.

I use CFLs for now because they're just a lot cheaper than LED and work fine for veg/early flower. Hopefully by the time they ban CFLs LEDs will be more affordable. For light cycle I now use 6/2. I was using 5/3 before but it wasn't quite enough for my liking so I went to a full 18 hours light per day, in 6 hour segments. Why the repeating short cycles? I find growth is faster than with one long light period and one long dark period per day. Haven't done side-by-side but just from casual observation. Maybe someone else could try a side-by-side though. I just have very limited space right now so I don't really have room for experiments. Maybe two 9/3 cycles would be better but I'm happy with this setup for now.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 16, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Personally I wouldn't use 4' fluorescents simply due to the inconvenient shape. Who wants to mess with a bunch of light sabers? CFLs are nice and compact, therefore easy to transport and dispose of. It's also a lot easier to get fairly high intensity with CFLs. With regular tubes you have to put them practically touching each other for usable intensity. Big ol' tubes just aren't practical to work with. I also only use the CFLs for veg and first 2 weeks of flower.


So now T5's aren't good enough so we need to upgrade to CFL? 



BobCajun said:


> The COBs just perform a lot better in flowering than fluorescents.


Florescent tubes and spirals are garbage. Of course COBs perform a lot better, and they don't have that fucking flicker!

https://www.rollitup.org/t/smashing-fluorescent-lamps.864130/



BobCajun said:


> I use CFLs for now because they're just a lot cheaper than LED and work fine for veg/early flower. Hopefully by the time they ban CFLs LEDs will be more affordable. For light cycle I now use 6/2. I was using 5/3 before but it wasn't quite enough for my liking so I went to a full 18 hours light per day, in 6 hour segments. Why the repeating short cycles? I find growth is faster than with one long light period and one long dark period per day. Haven't done side-by-side but just from casual observation. Maybe someone else could try a side-by-side though. I just have very limited space right now so I don't really have room for experiments. Maybe two 9/3 cycles would be better but I'm happy with this setup for now.


Why don't you just use HPS? CFL does not work fine for flowering at all. Have you ever tried flowering with HPS before?


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 16, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> So now T5's aren't good enough so we need to upgrade to CFL?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, you need to upgrade to CFL. It's the big advance in fluorescent lighting, a whole tube condensed into a small area. 

Why don't I use HPS? Because I tried a 150w HPS in there and it just burned the f out them. HPS are great for keeping food warm, but for growing plants, not so great. They work but just way too much IR, as in huge amounts. Not really appropriate for a cabinet. You'd have to absorb the IR with a layer of water for them to be usable, and that's a lot of extra trouble.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 16, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> HPS are great for keeping food warm, but for growing plants, not so great.


Right....


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 16, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Right....


Churchhaze, you're well known on this forum for your negativity and lack of constructive comments. Therefore I choose to ignore you. For others reading the forum, I did buy a 4 pack of 8.5w LED bulbs today and replaced the 9w CFLs I was using for rooting clones. 800 lm vs 550. It was Sylvania brand, the kind that have a round diffuser on them that looks like a normal light bulb. Even though I have them positioned horizontally they still give out plenty of light in all directions with that diffuser, which should be gentler on the clones than if it was blasting straight down at them. In a cloning situation, LED bulbs are appropriate because they actually cost no more than CFLs of similar wattage and produce more light, I got 4 for $12 something. Only problem is that it's only these small bulbs that are reasonably priced, and obviously you couldn't really put 40-60 of them in a 1 m2 space because it would just not be practical with all the wiring and sockets etc. Even the larger 24w grow bulbs would require about 20 or more.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 16, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Churchhaze, you're well known on this forum for your negativity and lack of constructive comments. Therefore I choose to ignore you. For others reading the forum, I did buy a 4 pack of 8.5w LED bulbs today and replaced the 9w CFLs I was using for rooting clones. 800 lm vs 550. It was Sylvania brand, the kind that have a round diffuser on them that looks like a normal light bulb. Even though I have them positioned horizontally they still give out plenty of light in all directions with that diffuser, which should be gentler on the clones than if it was blasting straight down at them. In a cloning situation, LED bulbs are appropriate because they actually cost no more than CFLs of similar wattage and produce more light, I got 4 for $12 something. Only problem is that it's only these small bulbs that are reasonably priced, and obviously you couldn't really put 40-60 of them in a 1 m2 space because it would just not be practical with all the wiring and sockets etc. Even the larger 24w grow bulbs would require about 20 or more.


You have a reputation for thinking that HPS lamps aren't very good for growing plants.



BobCajun said:


> HPS are great for keeping food warm, but for growing plants, not so great.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 16, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You have a reputation for thinking that HPS lamps aren't very good for growing plants.


At least your reputation is intact.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 16, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You have a reputation for thinking that HPS lamps aren't very good for growing plants.


Oh I do not. I hardly ever mention HPS at all. Just doesn't come up that often. I'm just going by experience. I find they burn plants up too much and produce too much heat in general. Just too problematic to deal with compared to LED and CFL.


----------



## Doogan (Jul 19, 2016)

Odin* said:


> After reading the "midday depression" portion of the first post I felt it was necessary for me to "intervene".
> 
> Exceeding a plants "light saturation" has little to no negative effect on photosynthesis. It is the heat associated with light that causes "midday depression". This is fact and explored here-
> 
> ...


Could you instead lower the power during "midday depression" instead lights off? Or evan shut some off for 30 and leave some on....?


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 19, 2016)

Doogan said:


> Could you instead lower the power during "midday depression" instead lights off? Or evan shut some off for 30 and leave some on....?


All I can tell you is that under 6/2 veg cycle growth is off the chain.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 19, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> All I can tell you is that under 6/2 veg cycle growth is off the chain.



I tried that in one veg room . A couple strains started flowering in veg. It was 5 out of 20 plants. I went back to 18/6.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 19, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I tried that in one veg room . A couple strains started flowering in veg. It was 5 out of 20 plants. I went back to 18/6.


Weird, but interesting. Mine reveged on it from cuttings taken at 6 weeks flower. Completely vegetative right now. Was it all one strain that flowered?


----------



## hyroot (Jul 19, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Weird, but interesting. Mine reveged on it from cuttings taken at 6 weeks flower. Completely vegetative right now. Was it all one strain that flowered?


It was blue balls, nightmare cookies, and quantum kush. They started flowering then after pistils started forming. They went through the reveg stage. Then I immediately switched back to 18/6.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 19, 2016)

hyroot said:


> It was blue balls, nightmare cookies, and quantum kush. They started flowering then after pistils started forming. They went through the reveg stage. Then I immediately switched back to 18/6.


Sure it wasn't just normal single flowers at nodes? Hard to believe a plant could flower on 2 hours of darkness, in fact impossible to believe. Anyway, probably doesn't make much difference. My plants look healthy though and grow fast. I don't think they like being in the dark for long periods. I think they're growing better than 18/6 but it's just visually.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 19, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Sure it wasn't just normal single flowers at nodes? Hard to believe a plant could flower on 2 hours of darkness, in fact impossible to believe. Anyway, probably doesn't make much difference. My plants look healthy though and grow fast. I don't think they like being in the dark for long periods. I think they're growing better than 18/6 but it's just visually.


They were forming buds at each top.

it takes 2 hours of darkness to send a plant into its phytochrome state. With IR ot takes a few min. 

So when the lights came back on. The plants might have thought it was new day.

Like all other training methods and longer day manipulation , it's strain dependent.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 19, 2016)

Doogan said:


> Could you instead lower the power during "midday depression" instead lights off? Or evan shut some off for 30 and leave some on....?




No. You do not want to alter the light cycle to impose an artificial midday depression on the plants. I was referring to the original post, which suggests recreating the midday depression (through darkness, not heat, but that still generates the same result) and applying excessive heat are beneficial. This is not true, both bring photosynthesis to a halt. One of the studies (links) I posted concluded that it is the temperature, not "light saturation" that causes midday depression.

Cool temps, CO2 supplementation, ample water, lots of light, that's what you want.


I wanted to touch on major changes in the light cycle during bloom. Some strains can handle it, if other stressors aren't there to push it beyond it's stress limit. Others cannot, or have already been subjected to enough stress that major changes in the lighting will push it to herm. I know this not only from reading (more below), but first hand experience. I've changed the light cycle in mid bloom before without issue, so when it was becoming exceptionally hot (several years back), I didn't think twice about shutting the lights off for two days, to "reset" and switch it over to "on" at night (it had been "on" during the day). I had neglected to consider my "Mystery". She's high maintenance, isn't afraid to go bananas over the slightest "imperfection" in the environment. The two days off and change in the cycle made her flip her cookie, threw bananas at everybody, and left me with a crap ton of seeds (I kept about 1k).
As I mentioned above, I looked into it to see if I could find anything directly linking the "lights out" to the banana fest. Sure enough, I read (don't remember if it was an excerpt from a book, or the breeder chiming in on one of the Forums) that a well known and respected breeder shut the lights off mid bloom to identify any "sensitive" plants (hermie tendencies) so that they could be eliminated from breeding stock.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 19, 2016)

I suspect that midday depression occurs because of conditions being hostile to growth, like excessive temperatures and RH. If these are kept in their ideal range, the plant has no need to slow down.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 19, 2016)

Odin* said:


> No. You do not want to alter the light cycle to impose an artificial midday depression on the plants. I was referring to the original post, which suggests recreating the midday depression (through darkness, not heat, but that still generates the same result) and applying excessive heat are beneficial. This is not true, both bring photosynthesis to a halt. One of the studies (links) I posted concluded that it is the temperature, not "light saturation" that causes midday depression.


Some how you missed that I run a hot canopy, The reason I wrote the post was because lots of folks wanted to know how I get the results I get usin T5's, you may be right bout it shuttin down things but it works a charm, I've been doin it for years


----------



## Odin* (Jul 19, 2016)

@RM3 I didn't miss that bit and I don't doubt that you've dialed in your setup to run at, or close to, *it's *best. With higher temps, the plants will sweat more, this forces them to drink more, which assists in keeping the roots healthier. However, the constant sweating/loss of water is what prevents the buds from developing the bulbous calyxes. The "sweating"/heat also decreases terpene development. This might explain why your garden doesn't "stink". If you cooled your room via AC, the AC would pull water from the room (condenser), maintaining a similar level of soil moisture, but your plant would not be drawing up that water and "sweating". That alone would completely change your "feed" and watering schedule.



To illustrate the drastic difference that temperature makes, here is my GSC, grown in higher temps. Notice the lack of bulbous calyxes, the amount of leaves (in bud), the hairs, the color (which is determined by terpenes, as is scent and flavors).









Here is that exact same strain (my GSC, all from a single original clone), only grown in cooler temps. No other change was made, same medium, same feed schedule, same room. Look at the change in bud structure. Bulbous calyxes, very low leaf count, very few hairs, all purple (increased terpenes). I will also say that the nose is far stronger/complex, flavors are better as well as more complex, and the smoke is more potent, the high more complex and longer in duration. This is the healthier/happier plant and sets the bar that every run with this strain will be measured against. As long as I can maintain those temps, she will come out identical each time, everything else is in perfect order.







Here is some glue from that same run. 















You can grow herb in higher temps, I've churned out fire from 88F, but that doesn't mean that it was grown in optimal conditions, or was as good as it could have been. Again, cooler temps, CO2 supplementation, roots, watering, nutrients, etc. at "perfect" levels allow for a greater light saturation threshold, which increases metabolism, resulting in boosted rates of photosynthesis. Higher temps lower the light saturation threshold and slows/stops the metabolism, which decreases/stops photosynthesis.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 19, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I suspect that midday depression occurs because of conditions being hostile to growth, like excessive temperatures and RH. If these are kept in their ideal range, the plant has no need to slow down.


I can tell you it has been right around 100 here this summer. Heat indexes of 115. High humidity. 

We went a long spell with no rain and even the big hardwoods were starting to yellow. 

We finally got a couple weeks of rain.

Aot of plants in the garden and around the house just curl up mid day.

I've got a few flowering and trucking right along.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 19, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I can tell you IG has been right around 100 here this summer. Heat indexes of 115. High humidity.
> 
> We went a long spell with no rain and even the big hardwoods were starting to yellow.
> 
> ...


My outdoor was doing the same. Yellowing and curling and twisting leaves. It's been 105-115 everyday and 85 -105 at night. Even with shade cloth. Since I started watering with activated labs (lactobacillus serum) they have been perky during the day. Which never happens this time of year


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 19, 2016)

hyroot said:


> My outdoor was doing the same. Yellowing and curling and twisting leaves. It's been 105-115 everyday and 85 -105 at night. Even with shade cloth. Since I started watering with activated labs (lactobacillus serum) they have been perky during the day. Which never happens this time of year


I got a sample from rxgreensolutions. It has different bacteria in it. It has made a difference. 

Its called root.


https://www.rxgreensolutions.com/root.html


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 19, 2016)

Odin* said:


> @RM3 I didn't miss that bit and I don't doubt that you've dialed in your setup to run at, or close to, *it's *best. With higher temps, the plants will sweat more, this forces them to drink more, which assists in keeping the roots healthier. However, the constant sweating/loss of water is what prevents the buds from developing the bulbous calyxes. The "sweating"/heat also decreases terpene development. This might explain why your garden doesn't "stink". If you cooled your room via AC, the AC would pull water from the room (condenser), maintaining a similar level of soil moisture, but your plant would not be drawing up that water and "sweating". That alone would completely change your "feed" and watering schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


@RM3 runs his RH quite low, so this doesn't become a problem in his application. 

He's after resin maximization, not yield. It's a different mindset.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 19, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I got a sample from rxgreensolutions. It has different bacteria in it. It has made a difference.
> 
> Its called root.
> 
> ...



I make my own

http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/recipes/lactobacillus-serum/


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 19, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Some how you missed that I run a hot canopy





Odin* said:


> by running your temps above 77F/25C (+ or - 2F depending on plant/strain) you are recreating the catalyst of midday depression, excessive heat. Only, this is not just at "midday", it is for the entirety of the "day" as this is the constant throughout your "lights on" period. So, not only are you forcing "midday depression" for 30 minutes, but you are intentionally subjecting them to "all day depression" with high temps. Another negative effect of the high temps is that it lowers the plants light saturation threshold. High temps lower the plants ability to use "light" and perform photosynthesis. This is why we want to lower temps, maintain good air circulation over the leaves, and increase the availability of CO2. This increases the plants light saturation threshold, boosts it's metabolism, which means increased rate of photosynthesis.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 19, 2016)

hyroot said:


> They were forming buds at each top.
> 
> it takes 2 hours of darkness to send a plant into its phytochrome state. With IR ot takes a few min.
> 
> ...


In that case, you have discovered a way to make photos flower under 18 hours light per day total.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 19, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> In that case, you have discovered a way to make photos flower under 18 hours light per day total.


with some strains I guess. I've even seen plushberry start flowering when it gets rootbound during veg. 

One time I had a bunch of plants flower in veg in 20 /4 when I ran too much IR from 710 -760nm. I forget what strains those were. That was 6 or 7 years ago. I was running raspberry cough, master kush afghani bullrider, whitaker blues , and skywalker back then. I don't remember which it was. 


Typically with 730nm IR lighting on for 5 min after lights out to mimic sunset in late summer and fall. You can run 14 hours on and 10 hours off. Treat it like seasons going from spring to fall. 12/12 first 2 weeks then 13/11 or 13.5 / 10.5 or 14/11 then back to 12/12 the last 2 weeks


----------



## Odin* (Jul 19, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> @RM3 runs his RH quite low, so this doesn't become a problem in his application.
> 
> He's after resin maximization, not yield. It's a different mindset.



It was an example, but even still, utilizing an AC to control the temps would dry the room out even further, altering the water/nutrient uptake and feeding schedule.



High heat is counterproductive in resin development. Terpenes are the major components (oils) of resin. Low terpene development means low resin. Just look at the GSC pics I posted. I don't think I would even need to mention that the purple GSC (cooler temps) was the far "stickier" plant.

Again, fire can be grown in various environments, but there are optimal conditions that yield the best of buds. Cool temperatures fascilitate terpene development and overall plant metabolism.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 19, 2016)

hyroot said:


> with some strains I guess. I've even seen plushberry start flowering when it gets rootbound during veg.
> 
> One time I had a bunch of plants flower in veg in 20 /4 when I ran too much IR from 710 -760nm. I forget what strains those were. That was 6 or 7 years ago. I was running raspberry cough, master kush afghani bullrider, whitaker blues , and skywalker back then. I don't remember which it was.
> 
> ...


I do that without the ir and most will flower at about 14.5-14 hours light. Of course sativas around 12/12 and some even 10/12.

I go from veg to flower over a couple weeks.

I just prefer to do it that way.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 19, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Oh I do not. I hardly ever mention HPS at all. Just doesn't come up that often. I'm just going by experience.* I find they burn plants up too much and produce too much heat in general.*


You need to dissipate more watts of CFL to get the same amount of light as HPS. That means CFL produces more heat. That's what efficiency means. CFL generates way more heat than HPS.



BobCajun said:


> *Just too problematic to deal with compared to LED and CFL.*


Bunch of idiots growing with 1000W HPS, right? They should take your advice and upgrade to CFL.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 19, 2016)

RIU has reached a new low. Someone PLEASE teach us how to grow pot again.


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## hyroot (Jul 19, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> @RM3 runs his RH quite low, so this doesn't become a problem in his application.
> 
> He's after resin maximization, not yield. It's a different mindset.



That's the opposite of what he's doing. He's after yield not trichome heads. If he was after trichs his plants would stink. The terpene oils are inside the waxy membrane of trichome head

Higher temps = larger yield poor trichome production, more airy buds

lower temps =. better trichome production, slightly smaller yield, denser buds


Heat and humidity are the enemy of trichomes. Ask any well known hash maker. They will tell you the same. Infact Robert Clarke says the same too. He wrote the book on marijuana botany and hash.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You need to dissipate more watts of CFL to get the same amount of light as HPS. That means CFL produces more heat. That's what efficiency means. CFL generates way more heat than HPS.
> 
> 
> 
> Bunch of idiots growing with 1000W HPS, right? They should take your advice and upgrade to CFL.


No, actually I don't advise anyone to do anything. Don't really give a crap what other people do. If I DID give advice before, I hearby withdraw it. Happy now?


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

hyroot said:


> with some strains I guess. I've even seen plushberry start flowering when it gets rootbound during veg.
> 
> One time I had a bunch of plants flower in veg in 20 /4 when I ran too much IR from 710 -760nm. I forget what strains those were. That was 6 or 7 years ago. I was running raspberry cough, master kush afghani bullrider, whitaker blues , and skywalker back then. I don't remember which it was.
> 
> ...


I suspect that you made an error when you set the timer and ended up with at least 10 hours of straight darkness in there somewhere. You're telling me you set the timer for 6/2/6/2/6/2 and plants flowered? You know how short day plants work, right? So you know that if you set the timer correctly that no short day plant could possibly flower under that light cycle. Therefore, I think we both know what really happened. Not saying you're a screwup, just that mistakes happen when setting timers for unconventional light cycles sometimes.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> @RM3 I didn't miss that bit and I don't doubt that you've dialed in your setup to run at, or close to, *it's *best. With higher temps, the plants will sweat more, this forces them to drink more, which assists in keeping the roots healthier. However, the constant sweating/loss of water is what prevents the buds from developing the bulbous calyxes. The "sweating"/heat also decreases terpene development. This might explain why your garden doesn't "stink". If you cooled your room via AC, the AC would pull water from the room (condenser), maintaining a similar level of soil moisture, but your plant would not be drawing up that water and "sweating". That alone would completely change your "feed" and watering schedule.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


All I can say is you must now follow my grows lol,,,, You and others simply don't get it my room temp is not high !!!!!! Right now my room is 79 degrees my canopy is 91 my root zones are 71, the RH is 31%. My way of growing is COMPLETELY different than what you know or are used to. I have no seals, no ventilation fans, no carbon scrubber. My 5 X 5 grow area sits in the middle of a 500 sq ft room and is WIDE OPEN and my house is air conditioned. 

Please take a moment to go outside on a day in the low 80's and put a thermometer in the sun, you'll see that what I do is how Mom Nature rolls it's not rocket science 

Please tell me how I fucked up this bud?
.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

or this one?
.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

or this one?
.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

How bout this one, high canopy temps keepin the calyxes from swellin???
.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

How bout this one?
.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

Or my namesake strain?
.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

I simply don't get folks that wanna bash that which they don't understand ???


----------



## Thorhax (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 grows in kitty litter if I'm not mistaken....made up of a lot of carbon. could be one of the reasons his plants don't smell. kitty litter was designed to absorb way stronger smells than some dank weed. 

though if you have been using the same kitty liter for years....idk... maybe the waterings act as a wash for the kitty litter?

to be honest even after reading your book @RM3, i still don't understand. but whatever, it works for you


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

Thorhax said:


> RM3 grows in kitty litter if I'm not mistaken....made up of a lot of carbon. could be one of the reasons his plants don't smell. kitty litter was designed to absorb way stronger smells than some dank weed.
> 
> though if you have been using the same kitty liter for years....idk... maybe the waterings act as a wash for the kitty litter?
> 
> to be honest even after reading your book @RM3, i still don't understand. but whatever, it works for you


I'm sorry to hear that? The kitty liter I use is simply Calcined Clay, no scent, no odor control, it helps aeration, it retains water and it slowly adds sulfur or IOW creates a sulfur rich environment


----------



## Resinhound (Jul 20, 2016)

It's obvious this is just a troll thread and Rm3 has no clue... Just look at those messed up buds, looks like he sprayed Christmas tree flocking on em... 

Get outta here with your crazy white buds... Trollm3


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> I suspect that you made an error when you set the timer and ended up with at least 10 hours of straight darkness in there somewhere. You're telling me you set the timer for 6/2/6/2/6/2 and plants flowered? You know how short day plants work, right? So you know that if you set the timer correctly that no short day plant could possibly flower under that light cycle. Therefore, I think we both know what really happened. Not saying you're a screwup, just that mistakes happen when setting timers for unconventional light cycles sometimes.


Might have mistaken preflowers for the real deal.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I simply don't get folks that wanna bash that which they don't understand ???


Those buds are alllllllll fucked up- and worse, they're highly contagious; anyone smoking them gets all fucked up, too!


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Those buds are alllllllll fucked up- and worse, they're highly contagious; anyone smoking them gets all fucked up, too!


Yeah, I don't get it, it's an advanced technique posted in the advanced forum after folks askin how da fuc you get those 18+ inch colas with freakin T5's 2 feet off the canopy??? 

Then you and others that have actually been here and seen it and smoked the buds tell em how they wreck ya and they still think I'm full of crap, it just doesn't make sense to me? lol


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Yeah, I don't get it, it's an advanced technique posted in the advanced forum after folks askin how da fuc you get those 18+ inch colas with freakin T5's 2 feet off the canopy???
> 
> Then you and others that have actually been here and seen it and smoked the buds tell em how they wreck ya and they still think I'm full of crap, it just doesn't make sense to me? lol


Did you start your plants under UV supplemented light when germinated? I think I read you mentioning that before. Just wondering if you noticed more potency than normal for the strain. I'm starting White Cookies under UVB 150 CFL right now. So far just opened up the cots. Don't appear to be suffering though.

The idea is based on me reading where they took some UK hemp seeds to Egypt and planted them and the very first crop was more resinous than in the UK. That can't have been due to a gradual change over a few generations. Had to be due to the seeds sprouting in the 30 latitude desert environment and making adjustments right then and there for the future growth of that plant. It may not take several generations at all, though probably more so than a single one.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Did you start your plants under UV supplemented light when germinated? I think I read you mentioning that before. Just wondering if you noticed more potency than normal for the strain. I'm starting White Cookies under UVB 150 CFL right now. So far just opened up the cots. Don't appear to be suffering though.
> 
> The idea is based on me reading where they took some UK hemp seeds to Egypt and planted them and the very first crop was more resinous than in the UK. That can't have been due to a gradual change over a few generations. Had to be due to the seeds sprouting in the 30 latitude desert environment and making adjustments right then and there for the future growth of that plant.


Yes I run UV through out because I breed, my strains are potent as fuck ask anyone that has smoked em


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Yes I run UV through out because I breed, my strains are potent as fuck ask anyone that has smoked em


Exactly as I suspected. You posted pics of tiny seedlings with resin glands on em, right? maybe that's the secret, sprouting under UVB enhanced spectrum. You're the only person who does that, to my knowledge. You may not even need UV during flowering. Maybe the high THC is programmed in from seedling stage. It's a real pain trying to supplement flowering plants with UV. Takes a lot less for a seedling.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Exactly as I suspected. You posted pics of tiny seedlings with resin glands on em, right? maybe that's the secret, sprouting under UVB enhanced spectrum.


yeppers 
.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> yeppers
> .
> View attachment 3737084 View attachment 3737085


Yeah that's the one. Who gets seedlings like that under normal low UV light?


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Yeah, I don't get it, it's an advanced technique posted in the advanced forum after folks askin how da fuc you get those 18+ inch colas with freakin T5's 2 feet off the canopy???
> 
> Then you and others that have actually been here and seen it and smoked the buds tell em how they wreck ya and they still think I'm full of crap, it just doesn't make sense to me? lol


"Science by mob rules."

We know how Dr Frankenstein felt.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Yeah that's the one. Who gets seedlings like that under normal low UV light?


Yeah, I read somewhere that it was the trics that get ya high, so i decided to grow trics


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Yeah, I read somewhere that it was the trics that get ya high, so i decided to grow trics


You were ahead of the curve on that one. The lizard lights work well for it, because they do also have PAR light so you can just use a single CFL for the sprouting, and also because they're nice and compact, easy to work with. Anyway I'll see how it turns out. I haven't heard of anyone using lizard lights as the only light source for plants yet. Somebody probably did but I haven't seen it.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> I suspect that you made an error when you set the timer and ended up with at least 10 hours of straight darkness in there somewhere. You're telling me you set the timer for 6/2/6/2/6/2 and plants flowered? You know how short day plants work, right? So you know that if you set the timer correctly that no short day plant could possibly flower under that light cycle. Therefore, I think we both know what really happened. Not saying you're a screwup, just that mistakes happen when setting timers for unconventional light cycles sometimes.



No that's not what happened at all. after almost 20 years of growing. I don't think so. 6/2 is not natural. No where in the world does that happen in nature on a constant basis. That creates stress on plants. When plants get stressed out , any number of things can happen.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 20, 2016)

those buds look good. I don't see much frost on them. They're definitely not hash producers. like this is growing for trichomes

alien rift day 28




this plant stinks like old school kush but more sweet. With my filters no smell in the place.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

hyroot said:


> those buds look good. I don't see much frost on them. They're definitely not hash producers. like this is growing for trichomes
> 
> alien rift
> View attachment 3737101
> ...


Which buds you talkin bout ?

a Blue dream at 3 weeks from flip
.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

yeah, there's no frost here lol
.


----------



## Slab (Jul 20, 2016)

You guys are mother natures errand boys , not lords of the manor.

Stop taking credit for work that was done decades ago.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> All I can say is you must now follow my grows lol,,,, You and others simply don't get it my room temp is not high !!!!!! Right now my room is 79 degrees my canopy is 91 my root zones are 71, the RH is 31%. My way of growing is COMPLETELY different than what you know or are used to. I have no seals, no ventilation fans, no carbon scrubber. My 5 X 5 grow area sits in the middle of a 500 sq ft room and is WIDE OPEN and my house is air conditioned.
> 
> Please take a moment to go outside on a day in the low 80's and put a thermometer in the sun, you'll see that what I do is how Mom Nature rolls it's not rocket science
> 
> ...



From your original post "_my ambient room temp is 77 ~ 84", _those temps are too high. "Your" way of growing is nothing new to me. I've grown many different ways, I've seen many different grows. I have two different grows running right now.

Trying to "recreate" outdoor conditions indoors defeats the benefits of "control". Who cares if it's 80+F outside? It can also be 32F, or 100+. There is an optimal temperature for cannabis, not to just grow, but flourish in. It isn't rocket science, it's common sense. There is an optimum combination of light, CO2, temperature, "nutrients", water, etc. Temps above 77F are not a part of that equation. Again, the plant will grow and develop buds/trich's at temps above that, but the plants full potential will not be achieved.


Regarding your picture, it's weed, it will grow and bud in varying environments. Just because it develops flowers and some trich's does not mean it was grown in optimal conditions. In another post you said "it's botany", but you completely disregard any science that contradicts your style. Also, you come across as derogatory. "Don't understand", "steer them in a sane direction", "people will continue to be ignorant", "simply don't get", "somehow you missed", etc. You trash on others, simply for disagreeing, or not even that, for not "doing as you do". I'm not talking trash about your grow, you do what works for you. I'm not alleging that my methods are the one and only "true" way to grow and anyone that doesn't follow "doesn't understand", "isn't sane", or is completely "ignorant". It could just be that you've been exposed to so much ridicule that you've gone from "defensive" to "offensive", but this is biology/botany, not psychology.

Again, I didn't say that you "fucked it up", but if you're alleging that is a "perfect" bud, it is not. Do not take this as an insult, I'm not looking to knock your plants or your grow, but temps above 77F are not ideal. In an ideal environment, that bud would look better. Another thing not being considered in this discussion, outside of what the plant looks like in "life", is the finished product after it's "demise". There are not only deficiencies in the living pics, but cured buds will also divulge "deficiencies".

The main reason I chimed in is that you are suggesting those temps are ideal. This may work in your particular set up (not that it is "ideal"), but it may not work for other grows (depending on other factors). Each grow is unique and without knowing the particulars you cannot make such a recommendation. I am not suggesting that you lower your temps either, that would require you to alter your entire grow op. I am, however, bringing to "light" the science behind plant growth and development. This thread is about "Light" and facts are that light is your friend, the high temps generally associated with it are not. This is indubitable fact.


Let's just "chill".


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

hyroot said:


> No that's not what happened at all. after almost 20 years of growing. I don't think so. 6/2 is not natural. No where in the world does that happen in nature on a constant basis. That creates stress on plants. When plants get stressed out , any number of things can happen.


Certainly true. That's why I don't recommend that anyone other than me do it. I use that cycle because I like it, no science behind it, just my own observations. It works for me so I use it. I won't bother mentioning it again. It's my own proprietary methodology. I don't imitate what others do, at least not unless it appears to be effective. No part of my grow is like anybody else's. Who else does EOD and EON red? Nobody but me. I really don't think anybody else ever read about the subject. EOD far red is as far as their research went, apparently. That's why they have stretchy plants with little branching, low chlorophyll and prone to light damage. Their plants may ripen a few days earlier than mine, but does that really make up for the things I just mentioned? I'll take the few extra days, along with the incredibly short and dense plants. It's like a fukking hedge about 1 foot deep. The entire plants are no more than 2 feet high.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> From your original post "_my ambient room temp is 77 ~ 84", _those temps are too high. "Your" way of growing is nothing new to me. I've grown many different ways, I've seen many different grows. I have two different grows running right now.
> 
> Trying to "recreate" outdoor conditions indoors defeats the benefits of "control". Who cares if it's 80+F outside? It can also be 32F, or 100+. There is an optimal temperature for cannabis, not to just grow, but flourish in. It isn't rocket science, it's common sense. There is an optimum combination of light, CO2, temperature, "nutrients", water, etc. Temps above 77F are not a part of that equation. Again, the plant will grow and develop buds/trich's at temps above that, but the plants full potential will not be achieved.
> 
> ...


Ok, Let's just "chill". 

but it does seem ironic that others have duplicated it and it works for them as well ?


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Ok, Let's just "chill".
> 
> but it does seem ironic that others have duplicated it and it works for them as well ?


Greenhouse Seeds uses 27C day and 20 night. They have a YT channel where they grow out each of their strains.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> From your original post "_my ambient room temp is 77 ~ 84", _those temps are too high. "Your" way of growing is nothing new to me. I've grown many different ways, I've seen many different grows. I have two different grows running right now.
> 
> Trying to "recreate" outdoor conditions indoors defeats the benefits of "control". Who cares if it's 80+F outside? It can also be 32F, or 100+. There is an optimal temperature for cannabis, not to just grow, but flourish in. It isn't rocket science, it's common sense. There is an optimum combination of light, CO2, temperature, "nutrients", water, etc. Temps above 77F are not a part of that equation. Again, the plant will grow and develop buds/trich's at temps above that, but the plants full potential will not be achieved.
> 
> ...


The flaw in your logic is the assumption that his goals are the same as your goals. You may also be laboring under the false premise that there's just one 'best' way to grow.

The only one going off about it is you. Take your own advice; chill, and take some of mine; try not to be judgemental.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

Here, rm3, I'll show you the results of EOD red, 5 minutes. Also EON 5 minutes, though I doubt that has as much effect. I just don't want to shock them with sudden full power light. It may be better if they're warmed up with some low wattage red first.

So here's some that flowered for 6.5 weeks. Tallest ones were 30". Guess my 2' estimate was a little short before. Some of them are 2 though, the middle ones.







Here's the tops.






Another batch at 2.5 weeks. You can see how close the containers are. Normally, these would have stretched like hell by this point. Look how dark green and branched they are, in addition to not having elongated internodes and petioles. Look how short those leaf petioles are. Granted, not flowering super fast, but I don't really care because look at the fukking hedge.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Here, rm3, I'll show you the results of EOD red, 5 minutes. Also EON 5 minutes, though I doubt that has as much effect. I just don't want to shock them with sudden full power light. It may be better if they're warmed up with some low wattage red first.
> 
> So here's some that flowered for 6.5 weeks. Tallest ones were 30". Guess my 2' estimate was a little short before. Some of them are 2 though, the middle ones.
> 
> ...


last pic is a beauty.

What;s your theory on the purple petioles?

Whats your theory on the shortened petioles?


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

Just the strain I guess. It also gets red/purple stripes on the stems. Bubble Bomb is the strain.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Just the strain I guess. It also gets red/purple stripes on the stems. Bubble Bomb is the strain.


I went from having purple petioles on every plant to having bright green petioles on every plant. Not sure why and curious about others theories.

never considered the leaf petiole length. I get wildly long petioles.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

Exactly, because of the far red already in the spectrum that you're using, even LED and fluorescent have some. The exact same plant stretched quite a bit under pure 4100k LED. With the red light, you only need a low wattage like with FR. I only have 52w total in there of the red CFLs and it worked about the same with 26. I just wanted more red in there for 12/12 to improve the spectrum of the COBs. It worked, it got much whiter.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> .
> View attachment 3736884


It looks like weed and this is RIU. Everyone grows that here.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Exactly, because of the far red already in the spectrum that you're using, even LED and fluorescent have some. The exact same plant stretched quite a bit under pure 4100k LED. With the red light, you only need a low wattage like with FR. I only have 52w total in there of the red CFLs and it worked about the same with 26. I just wanted more red in there for 12/12 to improve the spectrum of the COBs. It worked, it got much whiter.


Im not sure it's working against me. My plants are huge and picture perfect. i do have the 54 w hortilux t5 uv bulb in there. It most def adds a band that is appreciated in this setup. Im using cobs 3500 and 4 k


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## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

I'm also hitting them up with calcium ascorbate. I just started the treatments though. Seemed to like the first dose I gave them a couple days ago. The optimum concentration is 300 mg per liter, but even 100 had significant effects in the study I read, *Effect of vitamin C growth and yield of broad beans exposed to ambient ozone in KSA, Akram A. Ali and Hosni A. Musallam.* I don't spray it though, just root feed, which works just as well.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 20, 2016)

Humans are one of the only animals that need vitamin C.

If they were feeding with calcium ascorbate, it's the calcium that made the difference. (all plants need calcium)


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

Maybe, but I just smoked a little bit and it was remarkably potent. I think the vitamin C may have made it crazy-ass potent. I don't recall it being like this before. Or could be the extra red CFLs I put in. All I know is I got lit.


----------



## Resinhound (Jul 20, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> Maybe, but I just smoked a little bit and it was remarkably potent. I think the vitamin C may have made it crazy-ass potent. I don't recall it being like this before. Or could be the extra red CFLs I put in. All I know is I got lit.


The placebo effect is a real thing. Just saying.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 20, 2016)

BTW here's what the 6/2 veg stage looks like. Don't appear to be suffering, and also not elongating. Those two red 13w CFLs really redden up the spectrum of the four 42w soft whites. No EOD on this one though, just the same timer as the whites.







This shot is from July 15, 6 days ago. Fast or slow, IDK. I'm okay with it though. Filled out nice.


----------



## Doogan (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> No. You do not want to alter the light cycle to impose an artificial midday depression on the plants. I was referring to the original post, which suggests recreating the midday depression (through darkness, not heat, but that still generates the same result) and applying excessive heat are beneficial. This is not true, both bring photosynthesis to a halt. One of the studies (links) I posted concluded that it is the temperature, not "light saturation" that causes midday depression.
> 
> Cool temps, CO2 supplementation, ample water, lots of light, that's what you want.
> 
> ...


Can a protein feeding like a lactic protein, help with heat? There are soil and tea recipes that will create like a Kvass within the medium. This can help with high temps. Waaaaaay back in the day slaves and field workers were given a beer or Kvass to help them through the hotter days. It was made from bread and had less than 2% alcohol.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 20, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Ok, Let's just "chill".
> 
> but it does seem ironic that others have duplicated it and it works for them as well ?



I never said that it wouldn't "work". I've already stated that I've grown fire at 88F and have repeated several times that it "works", but isn't "ideal". What I was pointing out is that the plants will flourish below 77F. 

"Let's chill" was a play on words. We are both chill, cool as cucumbers, I was referring to temperature. 


We're cool brother, both growing some herb that that we enjoy and does the trick.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 20, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> "Science by mob rules."
> 
> We know how Dr Frankenstein felt.


That was Fiction.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 20, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> The flaw in your logic is the assumption that his goals are the same as your goals. You may also be laboring under the false premise that there's just one 'best' way to grow.
> 
> The only one going off about it is you. Take your own advice; chill, and take some of mine; try not to be judgemental.



No flaw, as far as I know. I'm pretty sure that each and every one of us would like to grow the greatest amount of the most potent, flavorful, strongest smelling herb (weight, THC, Terpenes). Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (Breeders and hemp growers aside). RM3 may breed, but he also smokes it.

There is "one best" method, but nobody knows what that is. However, science has given us parameters/guidelines to work within. Straying from those diverts you from "perfection". This is fact.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> There is "one best" method, but nobody knows what that is. However, science has given us parameters/guidelines to work within. Straying from those diverts you from "perfection". This is fact.


Thats a fucking grand ass pronouncement bro.
Science has revolutions and their 'facts' change.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Structure_of_Scientific_Revolutions


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> That was Fiction.


You think that's the only place this attitude lives?


----------



## Odin* (Jul 20, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> You think that's the only place this attitude lives?



"Mob rules" no, science yes. Every "pseudo scientist" out there wants his name stamped on something. Without peer review, every "yahoo" would have his garbage published as fact. 

That is not to say that science doesn't "evolve". The science of "yester-year" is the "bogus" of today. Newton's "prism" disproved the Greeks theory of light. Our understanding of the "sciences" is at a much more mature level now, than it was then. 

It is difficult to argue the scientific research behind light/heat, especially when it is in line with common sense, "grow know", and empirical evidence.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> No flaw, as far as I know. I'm pretty sure that each and every one of us would like to grow the greatest amount of the most potent, flavorful, strongest smelling herb (weight, THC, Terpenes). Someone correct me if I'm wrong. (Breeders and hemp growers aside). RM3 may breed, but he also smokes it.
> 
> There is "one best" method, but nobody knows what that is. However, science has given us parameters/guidelines to work within. Straying from those diverts you from "perfection". This is fact.


You're quite simply wrong in many of your assumptions here. No, I'm not going to go through and debate them all, I'm just going to tell you that you've got some learning to do and humility to acquire before you'll be taken seriously by this crowd.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> "Mob rules" no, science yes. Every "pseudo scientist" out there wants his name stamped on something. Without peer review, every "yahoo" would have his garbage published as fact.
> 
> That is not to say that science doesn't "evolve". The science of "yester-year" is the "bogus" of today. Newton's "prism" disproved the Greeks theory of light. Our understanding of the "sciences" is at a much more mature level now, than it was then.
> 
> It is difficult to argue the scientific research behind light/heat, especially when it is in line with common sense, "grow know", and empirical evidence.


Except that we're talking about plants and husbandry, not physics. The trade offs are different. But you know, you're a norse god and all, so of course you know everything...


----------



## Odin* (Jul 20, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> You're quite simply wrong in many of your assumptions here. No, I'm not going to go through and debate them all, I'm just going to tell you that you've got some learning to do and humility to acquire before you'll be taken seriously by this crowd.



I "need" more "humble pie", while you speak for the whole of the community.

Always looking to learn. It's "closed mindedness" that I'm preaching against.


You can deny the results/scientific facts/common sense/"grow know" all you want. I'm not force feeding it to anyone. Just putting out there for the benefit of all.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 20, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Except that we're talking about plants and husbandry, not physics. The trade offs are different. But you know, you're a norse god and all, so of course you know everything...



And now you're just being eristic.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> I "need" more "humble pie", while you speak for the whole of the community.
> 
> Always looking to learn. It's "closed mindedness" that I'm preaching against.
> 
> ...


Your pompous ass is out there telling everyone there is only one way to grow, the braying of a fool in direct response to those who've been plying their craft for likely longer than you've been breathing.

So yeah. Humble pie is definitely on the menu. With a side of crow. Maybe your hat for dessert?


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> And now you're just being eristic.


I'm being sarcastic. 

Well, I might add.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jul 20, 2016)

Odin* said:


> Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


No your right!!!!! I agree with all those things.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 21, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Your pompous ass is out there telling everyone there is only one way to grow, the braying of a fool in direct response to those who've been plying their craft for likely longer than you've been breathing.
> 
> So yeah. Humble pie is definitely on the menu. With a side of crow. Maybe your hat for dessert?



Big words.

I never said "one way", I did point out the science behind "a better way".

Longer than I've been breathing? Possibly. How many here have been growing for a tic under 40 trips around the sun? Anybody posting here that has been at it that long should chime in, my hats off to you (before it's eaten).


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 21, 2016)

Odin* said:


> Big words.
> 
> I never said "one way", I did point out the science behind "a better way".
> 
> Longer than I've been breathing? Possibly. How many here have been growing for a tic under 40 trips around the sun? Anybody posting here that has been at it that long should chime in, my hats off to you (before it's eaten).


You attacked/challenged their cult leader.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 21, 2016)

Odin* said:


> Big words.
> 
> I never said "one way", I did point out the science behind "a better way".
> 
> Longer than I've been breathing? Possibly. How many here have been growing for a tic under 40 trips around the sun? Anybody posting here that has been at it that long should chime in, my hats off to you (before it's eaten).


44 for me


----------



## RM3 (Jul 21, 2016)

Odin* said:


> I never said "one way", I did point out the science behind "a better way".


A better way for what? Science is freakin awesome, but sometimes ya gotta think out side the box to make "new" discoveries 

Take a bunch of clones from a mom and have different growers grow em in different gardens and you'll get a bunch of different highs, this is because of how the environment affects genetic expression. I have experimented for years to discover how to get the best out of these genetic responses, what triggers what and which ones affect the high. I don't grow for yield, I'm not a cash cropper. I grow because I have compound PTSD and I used to have to smoke a bunch of hash to meet my medical needs. Now I simply smoke half a joint and I have been smokin that same half a joint for years now, yeppers same strain for 3+ years same amount, same high, zero tolerance issues. And this is why folks follow me, because they are Med patients that have a need for this type of medicine. The folks that bash what I do are cash croppers, yielders that care more about the $$$ than the medicine. I have no problem with that !!! But they would never adopt my different way of drying and curing as it affects bag appeal and until the main stream learns that the high can be better that will be a solid given fact. 

Read the smoke reports on page 2 of my sig link, my buds will wreck an average smoker, folks wanna think I'm braggin but I'm not, I'm tryin to spread a simple truth, I find it incredibly odd that folks that enjoy gettin high would not be interested in a better end product? This just blows my mind !!! And there is no greater joy than sharin a J with an old timer like myself that remembers those old 60"s~70's highs and seein the smile on their faces as it creeps up on em 

How bout you try find science that explains why nothing I grow has couchlock? Yeppers I've grown 100% Land Race Indicas that have a euphoric, up, energetic high, not only that but every thing I grow creeps as well. Tis all about genetic expression as it relates to our environments. It's not for every body but there are a few folks that are interested in what I do and how I do it, why they traveled from all over the world to smoke a J with me and if it seems I'm braggin, or bein condescending I'm sorry because that would be the furthermost thing from my thoughts ! But to be honest it does get old bein bashed around every corner for simply tryin to tell folks how to have better herb.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 21, 2016)

Here's something that may interest you, RM3.

"Plants grown at reduced levels of UV-B radiation invested less biomass in flowers and more in stem material compared to plants grown at ambient UV-B levels."

Didn't read the full text yet, but it's available free here. I just looked at the results part and this is an interesting thing about CO2 enrichment. It may be mostly growing more stem.

"Allocation of biomass in C02-enriched plants shifted from investment in leaf material towards investment in stem material. Leaf weight per plant weight (LWR) decreased by 13% and the fraction of biomass allocated to the stem (StWR) increased by 12% at the final harvest (Table 3). CO2 enrichment decreased leaf area per unit plant weight (LAR) by 16%- at the final harvest. This decrease was caused by both a decrease in the LWR and a decrease in the leaf area per unit leaf weight (SLA). The weight of the flowers per total plant weight (FWR) at the final harvest decreased by 9% under CO2 enrichment. No shifts in allocation between above-ground and belowground parts occurred, leaving the root weight per total plant weight (RWR) and the shoot to root ratio (SRR) unaffected."


----------



## RM3 (Jul 21, 2016)

*Photosynthetic Responses to Heat Treatments at Different Temperatures*

High temperature treatments included 35, 40 and 45°C, with 25°C as the control and recovery temperature. Heat treatment at 35°C did not significantly (_P_>0.05) inhibit net photosynthetic rate (_P_n). However, with treatments at 40 and 45°C, _P_n was decreased, accompanied by an increase in substomatal CO2 concentration (_C_i), decreases in stomatal conductance (_g_s) and the activation state of Rubisco, and inhibition of the donor side and the reaction center of PSII. The acceptor side of PSII was inhibited at 45°C but not at 40°C.

*Conclusions*
Heat treatment at 35°C did not significantly (_P_>0.05) influence photosynthesis.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 21, 2016)

@RM3 Again, you're misconstruing what you've just read and "cherry picking" information that you think backs your "ideas".

This is the introduction to that very article;

_"High temperature negatively affects plant growth and survival and hence crop yield. Photosynthesis is known to be one of the most heat-sensitive processes, and it can be inhibited by high temperature before other symptoms of stress are detected [1], [2]. Inhibition of photosynthesis by heat stress has long been attributed to an impairment of electron transport activity, especially the inhibition of photosystem II (PSII) activity [3], [4]. Heat stress not only damages the oxygen-evolving complex of PSII [5], [6], but also impairs electron transfer within the PSII reaction centres [7], [8], [9] and downstream of PSII. Some authors [10], [11] have suggested that the initial site of the inhibition is associated with a Calvin cycle reaction, especially inactivation of Rubisco [12], [13], [14], [15]. However, for different species, the specific effects of heat stress maybe different."
_
The key term used in the study is "heat treatment". The plant was subjected to those temperatures only for a moment, the bulk of the study was on the plants recovery/reaction after the treatment. They were not subjected to those temperatures for a prolonged period of time, like say, 12hrs of lights on.

Another thing to note, this study was performed on a fruit plant (grape), not a flower, fruit producing plants tend to be hardier and less susceptible to heat.

Full article here;

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0023033


----------



## RM3 (Jul 21, 2016)

Odin* said:


> @RM3 Again, you're misconstruing what you've just read and "cherry picking" information that you think backs your "ideas".


I know  I was trolling my own thread lol


----------



## Odin* (Jul 21, 2016)

I don't have any issue with you, at all. Heck, you can look at it this way, we both love growing these beautiful plants, "brothers in arms" of sorts.

I keep saying it, but I'll repeat it, I know for a fact that fire can be grown in higher temps, I've done it myself. I haven't said that you can't be creating fire with your set up. I'm not a cash cropper, could care less about yield, my lowest yielders are the most potent plants in my garden. This thread is about "Light", I'm bringing to "Light" (said that earlier, play on words) the science behind cooler temps and greater light increasing the plants productivity (if all else is in order).

We're both trying to achieve the same thing (best smoke), just have different ways of going about it.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 21, 2016)

Odin* said:


> I don't have any issue with you, at all. Heck, you can look at it this way, we both love growing these beautiful plants, "brothers in arms" of sorts.
> 
> I keep saying it, but I'll repeat it, I know for a fact that fire can be grown in higher temps, I've done it myself. I haven't said that you can't be creating fire with your set up. I'm not a cash cropper, could care less about yield, my lowest yielders are the most potent plants in my garden. This thread is about "Light", I'm bringing to "Light" (said that earlier, play on words) the science behind cooler temps and greater light increasing the plants productivity (if all else is in order).
> 
> We're both trying to achieve the same thing (best smoke), just have different ways of going about it.


One Love


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 22, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I grow because I have compound PTSD and I used to have to smoke a bunch of hash to meet my medical needs. Now I simply smoke half a joint and I have been smokin that same half a joint for years now, yeppers same strain for 3+ years same amount, same high, zero tolerance issues. And this is why folks follow me, because they are Med patients that have a need for this type of medicine.* The folks that bash what I do are cash croppers, yielders that care more about the $$$ than the medicine*


BULLSHIT! This is a LIE. I don't sell weed. You are WRONG.

Your excuse is ballz. The reason people (mostly me) bash you is for 2 reasons, and neither of them has to do with being cash croppers. You're a fucking *prick*, do you know that?

The reason you're bashed is because:

1) You talk shit about other people's weed and exaggerate the quality of your own.
2) You recommend CRAZY shit that hurts yield and plant health.

It has nothing to do with other people not wanting to grow high quality weed. For the last time you stubborn old man...

*GET OVER YOURSELF.*


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 22, 2016)

I have PTSD and MHGS (moral high ground syndrome). My weed is 10x better than yours.

You all just don't understand! None of you can think outside the box! Blah blah blah blah..

If I wasn't so great, would have I made this awesome thread on growing weed with T5s?? Nope.

I made a thread on growing with T5s and people are bashing me... Let me come up with delusional reasons for why I think people might be attacking me!


----------



## Capt. Stickyfingers (Jul 22, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I know  I was trolling my own thread lol


Yeah right. Nice attempt at a save though


----------



## Capt. Stickyfingers (Jul 22, 2016)

Growing 2 ft tall plants in a tanning bed isn't impressive. Neither is boiling roots, cherry picking science, or having a group of noobies riding your dick. Anyone thats not a total dumbass can see that RM3 doesn't have the facilities to do the kind of breeding he claims. I've seen him admit to being broke, so I guess his seeds and bud must not be making any cash. If his weed and breeding was that good, he wouldn't be sitting on his ass without any money while trying to hustle through riu and "fake" website. I mean, how the fuck can the smartest guy with the most skill, best weed, and most stable genetics in seed on the planet - be broke and resort to hustling through riu and a "parody" website? And I used quotations on fake and parody because those are the words used by rm3 himself to describe his own website. I don't believe it was a parody or fake. I think he played it off that way to saved face after being laughed at for the stupid claims and pricing. Who the fuck thinks that making a website with your own gear priced so ridiculously will bring you business and get your name out there? Unless you're doggies nuts. But you see how far that got them. Only a retard would follow their business model.


----------



## 714steadyeddie (Jul 22, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> BULLSHIT! This is a LIE. I don't sell weed. You are WRONG.
> 
> Your excuse is ballz. The reason people (mostly me) bash you is for 2 reasons, and neither of them has to do with being cash croppers. You're a fucking *prick*, do you know that?
> 
> ...


In before Ban hammer

Bro get over yourself


----------



## 714steadyeddie (Jul 22, 2016)

Capt. Stickyfingers said:


> Growing 2 ft tall plants in a tanning bed isn't impressive. Neither is boiling roots, cherry picking science, or having a group of noobies riding your dick. Anyone thats not a total dumbass can see that RM3 doesn't have the facilities to do the kind of breeding he claims. I've seen him admit to being broke, so I guess his seeds and bud must not be making any cash. If his weed and breeding was that good, he wouldn't be sitting on his ass without any money while trying to hustle through riu and "fake" website. I mean, how the fuck can the smartest guy with the most skill, best weed, and most stable genetics in seed on the planet - be broke and resort to hustling through riu and a "parody" website? And I used quotations on fake and parody because those are the words used by rm3 himself to describe his own website. I don't believe it was a parody or fake. I think he played it off that way to saved face after being laughed at for the stupid claims and pricing. Who the fuck thinks that making a website with your own gear priced so ridiculously will bring you business and get your name out there? Unless you're doggies nuts. But you see how far that got them. Only a retard would follow their business model.


Aww someone is a little butthurt


----------



## RM3 (Jul 22, 2016)

You all win, I'm just an old prick that doesn't have a clue, so how bout some bud porn?
My new Road to Neverland end of week 4
.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 23, 2016)

It has taken me two and a half years of growing a perpetual harvest one plant at a time harvesting every week to two weeks but my plants yeild double what I could grow last year and the buds have all the qualities that I keep reading about in RM3 posts. Even colored trichomes on many hybrids. Strains and breeding seem the most important part. 

Yeild and quality for the plants potential go hand in hand from what little I have seen as a small med grower. 

And I veg under T-5. Flower under 2 Hortilux Super HPS 600's and keep their room nicely ventilated with fans and intake/exhaust and 75 degrees Farenheight and 55 to 65 percent relative humidity. And in soil with whatever nutes I over bought as a newb. Yes cannabis marketed nutes. 

I also think many different methods can grow exceptional pot.


----------



## oleman10 (Jul 23, 2016)

RM3 said:


> You all win, I'm just an old prick that doesn't have a clue, so how bout some bud porn?
> My new Road to Neverland end of week 4
> .
> View attachment 3738565


Shes a beauty man.....


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 23, 2016)

Forgot to add a bud pic. This is the lowest bud on a Toxic Blue 33.


----------



## oleman10 (Jul 23, 2016)




----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 23, 2016)

No applause please. All I did was get out of the way mostly. 

Plenty of water but less often. Less heat. Adequate nutrition. And patience. 

Be proactive. And lots of good lighting.


----------



## kingdiamond (Jul 23, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Forgot to add a bud pic. This is the lowest bud on a Toxic Blue 33. View attachment 3739169


Sexy!


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 23, 2016)

Here she is


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 23, 2016)

So please explain why another light would give more quality?


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 23, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> So please explain why another light would give more quality?


Because HPS does not produce enough light in many spectra for the plant to fully express its genetics. I saw a big improvement when I went to CDM lighting, I've been using 860W CDM Allstart lamps for years now. 

The difference in quality of yield was just as obvious when I ran them under COB LED. Peeps can tell from across the room!


----------



## genuity (Jul 23, 2016)

No indoor light will bring a plant to its full potential. ...not gonna happen.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 23, 2016)

genuity said:


> No indoor light will bring a plant to its full potential. ...not gonna happen.


Ye of little faith and outdated assumptions. Due to the fact that most cannabis breeding programs have been carried out indoors, there's actually no shortage of strains that do better indoors than out. And that's under HID. 

And if your assertion was true, then why is indoor product of such higher value than outdoor?


----------



## genuity (Jul 23, 2016)

No indoor light will bring the plant to its full potential. ...and I stand by that.

It takes more than just some damn light.


Are we done,or you finished?


----------



## genuity (Jul 23, 2016)

Light dep.greenhouse..with a team. Is the best in my eyes.


Lots of moving parts.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 23, 2016)

genuity said:


> No indoor light will bring the plant to its full potential. ...and I stand by that.
> 
> It takes more than just some damn light.
> 
> ...


In spite of the available evidence, this tells me you don't want to think about your assumptions. I've never ever seen straight outdoor as good or better than indoor. 



genuity said:


> Light dep.greenhouse..with a team. Is the best in my eyes.
> 
> 
> Lots of moving parts.


This might be optimal. I won't know until I've run it.


----------



## Resinhound (Jul 23, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I know  I was trolling my own thread lol


Trollm3 at it again...


----------



## genuity (Jul 23, 2016)

So you made an ASSumption that I was talking full outdoor plants....that I did not.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 23, 2016)

genuity said:


> So you made an ASSumption that I was talking full outdoor plants....that I did not.


I'm not name calling. I'm simply asking you to back up your assertion. I'm not buying it. The sun isn't magical. The best product comes from indoor crops.


----------



## a mongo frog (Jul 23, 2016)

genuity said:


> Light dep.greenhouse..with a team. Is the best in my eyes.


Good Morning!!!!!!!


----------



## genuity (Jul 23, 2016)

a mongo frog said:


> Good Morning!!!!!!!


In heaven I would be...


----------



## a mongo frog (Jul 23, 2016)

genuity said:


> In heaven I would be...


Its fucking unreal. OG with no light bill!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 24, 2016)

To answer with my limited experience with indoor light spectrum. I started in my new flower room last year with 1 Hortilux 400w Blue Metal Halide and 1 Hortilux 600w Super HPS. 

It looked beautiful in there. And it even darkened my uv sensitive glasses. However even when I put the 400w Super HPS in place of the blue (it seemed to lose light much faster than my other bulbs) the plants responded to the higher lumens immediately. 

Now I know plants don't use lumens except for PAR but you could see the accelerated growth and vigor. Also the runs last summer started to grow bigger and more potent to smoke. 

Now with 2 600's the yeild and potency is much higher. And more consistent. I believe that to be because of good penetration. 

Also most things I read say you can only get better results with the right mix of red and blue and the wattage of the blue has to be equal. I think 2 to 1 red to blue is recommended by the universities. I am sorry I did not check my facts before posting. 

I am going to say lumens are a real good way to tell if you will have enough light with any agricultural lighting. 

They sure did look better to my eyes with that sunlight bulb in there. I want to put a 400 MH in between the 600 HPS hoods.


----------



## Odin* (Jul 24, 2016)

I favor a 3/1 HPS/MH in bloom. The girls love it.


----------



## Slab (Jul 24, 2016)

Stupid haze brothers and their vert 1000 watt MH barebulb vert grows, 

Yo DJ SHORT why you using HID, dont you know that could be blueberrierrieirrieirir!?!!?


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 24, 2016)

Slab said:


> Stupid haze brothers and their vert 1000 watt MH barebulb vert grows,
> 
> Yo DJ SHORT why you using HID, dont you know that could be blueberrierrieirrieirir!?!!?


When I ran round vertical silos, I put 860W CDM Allstart lamps in them. I got up to three in one, 96 sq ft. Did good, too. 

COB LED is way better.


----------



## Slab (Jul 24, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> When I ran round vertical silos, I put 860W CDM Allstart lamps in them. I got up to three in one, 96 sq ft. Did good, too.
> 
> COB LED is way better.


in your hands sure, you're a novice.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 26, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I'm sorry to hear that? The kitty liter I use is simply Calcined Clay, no scent, no odor control, it helps aeration, it retains water and it slowly adds sulfur or IOW creates a sulfur rich environment


Using calcined clay is one of the best tips I've gotten here on RIU. I even put 100 lbs in my garden & it's kicking some serious butt.
WAY better than perlite. 
Thanks RM3!!!


----------



## RM3 (Jul 26, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Using calcined clay is one of the best tips I've gotten here on RIU. I even put 100 lbs in my garden & it's kicking some serious butt.
> WAY better than perlite.
> Thanks RM3!!!


You are very welcome !


----------



## Slab (Jul 26, 2016)

You guys have a preferred manufacturer for it?


----------



## RM3 (Jul 26, 2016)

Slab said:


> You guys have a preferred manufacturer for it?


I just use Wal-Mart Special Kitty, 25 lbs for under $4 but you can also use turface


----------



## Slab (Jul 26, 2016)

Well for a Prick, you sure are helpfull


----------



## RM3 (Jul 26, 2016)

Slab said:


> Well for a Prick, you sure are helpfull


I try


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 26, 2016)

Slab said:


> in your hands sure, you're a novice.


Three lights in the silo, ya grumpy fucker lol

Four from the crop, and I know why it under preformed.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 26, 2016)

Quick question: I normally run UV all the way through flower. (4 lizard lights in corners of tent)
Would it be better to turn off UV for the last week? I'm halfway thru week 7...


----------



## RM3 (Jul 26, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Quick question: I normally run UV all the way through flower. (4 lizard lights in each corner of the tent)
> Would it be better to turn off UV for the last week? I'm halfway thru week 7...


I wouldn't, and see no reason why you should?


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 26, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I try


Lol yeah, giving away grow tips, smoking out friends you've never met before, helping build the community in large ways and small...

You're giving pricks a bad name!


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 26, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Quick question: I normally run UV all the way through flower. (4 lizard lights in corners of tent)
> Would it be better to turn off UV for the last week? I'm halfway thru week 7...





RM3 said:


> I wouldn't, and see no reason why you should?


Thanks! I was thinking it was unnecessary and could degrade THC. When do you take UV out of your spectrum?


----------



## RM3 (Jul 26, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Thanks! I was thinking it was unnecessary and could degrade THC. When do you take UV out of your spectrum?


Never, I start with seedlings and run it thru out


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 26, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Never, I start with seedlings and run it thru out


Ah... I got it backwards. 
Any concerns about UV degrading THC? Could be a myth. Dunno.
If we are trying to mimic mother nature, UV levels steadily decrease and are much lower in September/October when plants finish naturally.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 26, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Ah... I got it backwards.
> Any concerns about UV degrading THC? Could be a myth. Dunno.
> If we are trying to mimic mother nature, UV levels steadily decrease and are much lower in September/October when plants finish naturally.


IMO it's more like it alters it a tad


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 26, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I just use Wal-Mart Special Kitty, 25 lbs for under $4 but you can also use turface


I didn't look back very far in this thread but I noticed talk of kitty litter. You have be careful because most clay litter is sodium bentonite. I forget what the good kind is, probably calcium or potassium bentonite. There's potassium, sodium, calcium and aluminum bentonites. What happens is that when mixed with soil or medium and nutes added, it reacts and releases its sodium. I totally ruined a whole crop with it. I figured, hey, this is clay, clay is good for soil, Ill just mix this in. Plants burned to hell and stunted. Completely worthless. No potency at all either. Horrendous stuff. Leave it to the kitties, unless you know it's not sodium bentonite, which it usually is.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 26, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> I didn't look back very far in this thread but I noticed talk of kitty litter. You have be careful because most clay litter is sodium bentonite. I forget what the good kind is, probably calcium or potassium bentonite. There's potassium, sodium, calcium and aluminum bentonites. What happens is that when mixed with soil or medium and nutes added, it reacts and releases its sodium. I totally ruined a whole crop with it. I figured, hey, this is clay, clay is good for soil, Ill just mix this in. Plants burned to hell and stunted. Completely worthless. No potency at all either. Horrendous stuff. Leave it to the kitties, unless you know it's not sodium bentonite, which it usually is.


Been usin it for years with zero issues, know lots of growers usin it


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 26, 2016)

BobCajun said:


> I didn't look back very far in this thread but I noticed talk of kitty litter. You have be careful because most clay litter is sodium bentonite. I forget what the good kind is, probably calcium or potassium bentonite. There's potassium, sodium, calcium and aluminum bentonites. What happens is that when mixed with soil or medium and nutes added, it reacts and releases its sodium. I totally ruined a whole crop with it. I figured, hey, this is clay, clay is good for soil, Ill just mix this in. Plants burned to hell and stunted. Completely worthless. No potency at all either. Horrendous stuff. Leave it to the kitties, unless you know it's not sodium bentonite, which it usually is.


Calcined clay has the texture of ground up clay bricks. It does NOT clump. 
On the bright side, bentonite kitty litter makes great nozzles for homemade rockets! I was into homemade pyrotechnics back in the early 90s. Now it's taboo, thanks to asshole terrorists.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

you really know some chemistry Chunky. The fun kind too!!!


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 26, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Calcined clay has the texture of ground up clay bricks. It does NOT clump.
> On the bright side, bentonite kitty litter makes great nozzles for homemade rockets! I was into homemade pyrotechnics back in the early 90s. Now it's taboo, thanks to asshole terrorists.


Oh, calcined. What I used wasn't calcined. It turned into clay when moistened. That's the kind I mean. When baked it would probably be like pottery and unreactive. I still may have saved somebody out there from poisoning their plants with uncalcined sodium bentonite clay.


----------



## BobCajun (Jul 26, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Been usin it for years with zero issues, know lots of growers usin it


Must be either baked or another form of bentonite. Or conceivably I did something else that killed the plants. Pretty sure it was the kitty litter though.

Actually I just found a page that said American cat litter is usually montmorillonite, about which wikipedia says "Chemically, it is hydrated sodium calcium aluminium magnesium silicate hydroxide (Na,Ca)0.33(Al,Mg)2(Si4O10)(OH)2·_n_H2O. Potassium, iron, and other cations are common substitutes, and the exact ratio of cations varies with source." What I had really was sodium bentonite. It said on the package or I looked it up or something.

Now I looked up bentonite on wiki and it said;

"*Bentonite* is an absorbent aluminium phyllosilicate clay consisting mostly of montmorillonite. It was named by Wilbur C. Knight in 1898 after the Cretaceous Benton Shale near Rock River, Wyoming.[1][2]

The different types of bentonite are each named after the respective dominant element, such as potassium (K), sodium (Na), calcium (Ca), and aluminium (Al). Experts debate a number of nomenclatorial problems with the classification of bentonite clays. Bentonite usually forms from weathering of volcanic ash, most often in the presence of water. However, the term bentonite, as well as a similar clay called tonstein, has been used to describe clay beds of uncertain origin. For industrial purposes, two main classes of bentonite exist: sodium and calcium bentonite. In stratigraphy and tephrochronology, completely devitrified (weathered volcanic glass) ash-fall beds are commonly referred to as K-bentonites when the dominant clay species is illite. Other common clay species that are sometimes dominant are montmorillonite and kaolinite. Kaolinite-dominated clays are commonly referred to as tonsteins and are typically associated with coal."

I don't know. I just know I personally won't be using kitty litter in a medium.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 26, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> you really know some chemistry Chunky. The fun kind too!!!


Meh, I'm an amatuer. I used the first edition of a book called "Introductory Practical Pyrotechnics" by Tom Perigrin.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

At least you didn't say the Anarchy Gude Book.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

We had a creative "chemist" in high school that made a pipe bomb from the cleaning closet supplies and blew a hole in our school. 

He did it to an empty classroom at least. While we were taking our senior exams.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 26, 2016)

testiclees said:


> I went from having purple petioles on every plant to having bright green petioles on every plant. Not sure why and curious about others theories.
> 
> never considered the leaf petiole length. I get wildly long petioles.


My thought on it is it can be anything from a plant problem, genetics, temps, certain amendments can all do it. 

I generally don't worry about it unless the plant is sickly looking. I'm seeing it more and more in newer crosses and strains.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 26, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> My thought on it is it can be anything from a plant problem, genetics, temps, certain amendments can all do it.
> 
> I generally don't worry about it unless the plant is sickly looking. I'm seeing it more and more in newer crosses and strains.


Thanks. 

Ya i agree it's extremely hard to pinpoint and you cant really say for sure that it is a sign of an improvement oppty.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 26, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> We had a creative "chemist" in high school that made a pipe bomb from the cleaning closet supplies and blew a hole in our school.
> 
> He did it to an empty classroom at least. While we were taking our senior exams.


LOL im so fucking old

when i was in highschool (religious school) an upperclass men stuffed one of the bathroom drain pipes with a super reactive sodium compound. It blasted the fuck out of the place just as dude who had used sink walked out the door


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 26, 2016)

I grow by several different methods and for my personal stash it is t5 from start to finish. Mixed spectrum including UV is the way to go.

This is a 18+ inch cola. Yea I know they can be bigger. Its an auto. My point being it was rock hard and the lowers were to.

I think it possible with 1000 watts of t5 and filled the room with many single cola plants. Sog style and I could give hid a run for its money.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

Very very nice. But T-5 is only one way to go. They all work if they are radiating PAR. 

Both you and RM3 are running enough watts to get the results. T-5 is close to HPS in efficiency so 1000 watts is 1000 watts. I wish my computer didn't get too old before I transferred files because I had nasa and university links to show that with primarily blue or primarily red light would have the same results with the same watts. 

I wish we could pass information and learn rather than make blanket statements and argue about them. 

I want to know if my knowledge needs improving. But I hate reading 30 pages of arguing just to find an experienced knowledgeable answer. 

All factors of our grow are important in balance to make the happiest plants.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

And the pipe bomb went off in 1986. I'm only just getting old. Too bad I am still immature.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 26, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Very very nice. But T-5 is only one way to go. They all work if they are radiating PAR.
> 
> Both you and RM3 are running enough watts to get the results. T-5 is close to HPS in efficiency so 1000 watts is 1000 watts. I wish my computer didn't get too old before I transferred files because I had nasa and university links to show that with primarily blue or primarily red light would have the same results with the same watts.
> 
> ...


432 watts. I have a grow going now and when the plants are taller, I'm going vertical and will have over 700 watts in a 2x4 cab.


As I have stated, I prefer mixed spectrum bud over single spectrum.

I also prefer organic. Those are my tastes. Its what I like.

I'm not making a blanket statement. I'm making a personal statement.

In my opinion and observations mixed spectrum is better.

The whole growing the same amount under blue or red, I don't really believe that. 

Through a number of grows using all blue or all red led to different outcomes. Generally growing under all blue will give a better product with smaller yields. 

Does this hold true for every strain out there? No.

It progressed over time. All blue, all red, 50/50, then to horticulture bulbs. I run pure par and 10,000k+uva.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

Well said. 

What attributes are you finding so different with the light. Organic or not is another discussion I think. 

All the studies seem to end up recommending 3 to 1 red to blue. Or it may apply to HPS and MH.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 26, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Well said.
> 
> What attributes are you finding so different with the light. Organic or not is another discussion I think.
> 
> All the studies seem to end up recommending 3 to 1 red to blue. Or it may apply to HPS and MH.


For just a red blue mix I like a 50/50 all the way through. 

I get more resin and tricomes with blue and UV. 

They all around seem to grow and respond better the more spectrum I add. 

I have noticed with blue and UV greatly reduces and can even treat pm.

Lists of little things I've noticed with a mixed spectrum.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

I started my new room with a Hortilux Blue and a Hortilux Super HPS. I wish it would have worked better as I really like having the natural looking light in there. 

When I replaced the Blue with another Super HPS my yield and potency went up. And the plants grew bigger faster. 

However. These bulbs have some blue in them and maybe with two over my 3.5'x 7.5' space there is enough blue for quality. 

That is only my personal experience.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 26, 2016)

Hillbilly mixed spectrum: 
(600w HPS, cheap LED side panels, UV lizard lights in corners)
Week 7 of 8 
 
Afgooey


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 26, 2016)

Obviously works great. Nice.


----------



## Psyphish (Jul 27, 2016)

You can make any light source work... I've tried most of them, except high wattage COBs.

Here's an 80w old model Hans panel and a 315w CDM growing some autoflowers in 6 liter pots. No tent or ventilation, just the floor fan. Burnt to shit obviously, but I was using h3ad's formula back then.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Here's one I am growing now. A CH9 Herijuana Jack 33. About week 6.  

2 600's. I just scaled up. I has 1 HPS and 1 metal halide at first but this is working better for me.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> T-5 is close to HPS in efficiency so 1000 watts is 1000 watts


36 is 44% larger than 25. You call that close?

To put that in perspective, 5x5=25 and 6x6=36.

If a 25% efficient lamp covers a 5x5, a 36% efficient lamp dissipating the same power would cover a 6x6.

Growing with T5 when HPS is an option is just dumb. They're paying more to get less.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Those numbers you state could vary from many factors but I am sorry I thought they are close enough all factors considered to make the point about watts. 

I have seen 1 foot colas dense and frosty under both sources. But when I ask someone how many watts their setup is it is always close to equal per plant/ space. And great weed can or can not come from both. 

It is like any other hobby. These factors are all diminishing returns. Light doesn't matter that much unless it is not enough. Nutes don't matter unless they are incomplete for your medium and water. And it is still all up to the grower to do things well. 

You would of course have to consider the style of grow. I would not grow trees under a fluorescent tube or my single 600's but I would bend and train my plants to fit the system at hand.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

And you can Micky numbers any way you want but by your numbers they are only 11% more efficient. The scale is already figured on 100%

Showing things your way is like my job as a finance manager at a car dealership. 

Exaggerate and minimize. They train how to do that.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> And great weed can or can not come from both.


I totally agree, and this is exactly why people should not be upgrading their HPS to T5 just to get a reduction in yield and no change in quality. Meanwhile, they come here boasting up to 10x the quality of HPS growers to make themselves feel better. BS.

I don't think your argument on diminishing returns is relevant to the discussion. Having enough or not enough light has nothing to do with this. I'm talking about the *cost of light*, and the cost of running T5 is higher than HPS. You need to dissipate more power and the lamps cost more up front. Why do you think conventional growers use HPS?

As for nutes, i pay less for nutes than just about anyone on this site because I make DIY nutes. You say it only matters whether they're complete or not, but the cost VERY MUCH matters.

You're not considering factors like economy and the environment here.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> And you can Micky numbers any way you want but by your numbers they are only 11% more efficient. The scale is already figured on 100%


So it's not true that if a 1000W lamp that's 25% is supporting a 5x5 that a 36% efficient 1000W lamp would support a 6x6 with the same average ppfd?

1000W * 0.25 = 250W of PAR
1000W * 0.36 = 360W of PAR

250W/25sqft = 10W/sqft of PAR
360W/36sqft = 10W/sqft of PAR

It sounds like you trying to spin the numbers to make friends. Repeating what I said from my last post, "You're not considering factors like economy and the environment here."

HPS is the clear winner. (is anyone really surprised?)


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Spin the numbers to make friends? I would never "upgrade " my HPS to t5. 

And you can not argue cost. It is static and up to choice. 

I thought this was about quality. And I can grow quality plants in 3 different rooms of three different people with 3 different lamps. How do I know? When I got my head straight and studied gardening instead of magic plant science I was able to help all 3 caregivers improve their individual gardens. 

But I am not arguing with your numbers except that they are assumption. I have read those figures as well. There is sure a wide range of efficiencies just between bulb brands. What about the space you are lighting? Efficient or inefficient. Close to the wall or middle of the room. 

And well designed T-5 reflectors light well up to the edge. That is the boundary of a horizontal T5 garden. 

I stand by " it all depends on your situation what is best" if you are arguing to win. I am not on any side. 

That is why people get mad at me. 

If I was into politics I would be a republicrat. A democan. I don't know. That's why I don't take sides.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

And just one more point since I'm still up and pretty high. 

If my ceiling height is say 4' for the cab in question. Would you throw my blockbuster hood and 600hps in there?


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I would never "upgrade " my HPS to t5.


Good. These guys keep convincing more poor fools to convert to T5, then wonder why I'm so openly vocal about it. (as if i'm just trying to bully them)

RM3 keeps calling HPS grower's weed mids while using "10x" to describe his products. Then he shows off a noob T5 setup and average looking bud pics... This is extremely misleading to noobs!

It isn't okay to yield poorer results because you want to stray from convention. That's just _foolish_ imo.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> And just one more point since I'm still up and pretty high.
> 
> If my ceiling height is say 4' for the cab in question. Would you throw my blockbuster hood and 600hps in there?


I'd use cobs at that height. The price has come down so much that T5 is looking more expensive in $/PAR W in startup costs. Cobs are great for stealth cab growers.

Cobs are like growing with a small piece of HPS, but generally more efficient.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

I asked earlier but got no response. How far from the canopy do the cobs have to be away. I am a stress free grower. I do not force light on plants. So my air cooled 600's are always at least 18" above. That seems to be my threshold of comfort for the plants since I added the second one. 

I have space albeit small and may set up some more cabs.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Also why do you guys think you have some kind of responsibility to the newbs? Your arguments aren't helping. I read here to learn how to grow. This is by far the most entertaining weed site. I read everything and am familiar with all of the well known posters. 

Only thing is this is really important to me and all you all did was confuse me. So I went to the library and ordered gardening books. And when I wanted to learn lighting. The universities and the actual lighting companies. ( I mean GE, Phillips, Eye Lighting etc. )

That is what your help here usually does. Cause more confusion just like the myths you are all trying to discredit. Instead when a newbie reads he just buys into your newly created myths. 

All of the information is out there. I came here to help clarify some things. And a few posters have already helped me. But I can weed out the argument. I read first. Then actually joined Rolitup.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I'd use cobs at that height. The price has come down so much that T5 is looking more expensive in $/PAR W in startup costs. Cobs are great for stealth cab growers.
> 
> Cobs are like growing with a small piece of HPS, but generally more efficient.


Wait what height. If the pot is a foot and the plant is say 2 feet. How much distance to the light is safe. I have used 3 feet in this example. And how much area is still efficient at the height?


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## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

Church is merely upset that I have said T5's grow better weed than HPS, he ignores that I am not the only one that many others have chimed in, one of them even did a side by side with 3 lights with clones in the same room, T5 was best, CDM was second and HPS was last and he did smoke test with several patients. He has posted this twice and Church continues to ignore it 

I on the other hand have NEVER told anyone to change from an HPS light to T5's most that follow me have simply added a couple of T5's to enhance the HPS spectrum 

I do have a member doin a side by side with a Gravita vs T5's and so far both sides are equal, he is usin the same watts on both sides

Thus far there has only been one person (to my knowledge) that has duplicated my tanning booth exactly


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Can you link the side by side you refer to?


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## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Can you link the side by side you refer to?


Nope, my forum is private, not even indexed by google, I can see if he would let me share a pic?


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

I would like that.


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## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I would like that.


Here ya go,,,,,, both sides are 750 watts 
.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Well except for the contrast in the light sources they look about the same. 

I was hoping for the LEC 3 way. 

Thanks for taking the time.


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## bravedave (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Church is merely upset that I have said T5's grow better weed than HPS, he ignores that I am not the only one that many others have chimed in, one of them even did a side by side with 3 lights with clones in the same room, T5 was best, CDM was second and HPS was last and he did smoke test with several patients. He has posted this twice and Church continues to ignore it
> 
> I on the other hand have NEVER told anyone to change from an HPS light to T5's most that follow me have simply added a couple of T5's to enhance the HPS spectrum
> 
> ...


 I am one who has augmented my HPS with t5 blues etc and it HAS made for better quality. Actually I would be going MH all the way were it not for the T5s as for me, HPS on its own was disappointing. 

You have to read churchhaze with the knowledge that he seems quite a bit jealous of RMs success and notoriety.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

But why was HPS disappointing? And is the Hortilux Super HPS spectrum better so I am not disappointed by a plain HPS? 

Or has everyone blamed their lighting for their inexperience and just got better at growing despite the additions?

I have had my lesser HPS buds pictured by the breeder of the strains I chose on his site and one has been submitted to the Green Candy Press for consideration as a representation of his strains potential. He is featured in the Big Book Of Buds. 

I really didn't want to come here and brag but do you think an experienced long term breeder and Ed Rosenthal's editor don't know quality?


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> But why was HPS disappointing? And is the Hortilux Super HPS spectrum better so I am not disappointed by a plain HPS?
> 
> Or has everyone blamed their lighting for their inexperience and just got better at growing despite the additions?
> 
> ...


Nice ! DC recently got a bud pic in High Times, They don't like me as I rebuke most of their advertisers 

I would like to point out that it would be helpful if you hit reply so we know who you are talking to it also notifies the member you reply to so they can come look


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

bravedave said:


> I am one who has augmented my HPS with t5 blues etc and it HAS made for better quality. Actually I would be going MH all the way were it not for the T5s as for me, HPS on its own was disappointing.
> 
> You have to read churchhaze with the knowledge that he seems quite a bit jealous of RMs success and notoriety.


There is no proof of anything in this post but that you are defending RM3


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Nice ! DC recently got a bud pic in High Times, They don't like me as I rebuke most of their advertisers
> 
> I would like to point out that it would be helpful if you hit reply so we know who you are talking to it also notifies the member you reply to so they can come look


You rebuking high times made me lol. 

And thanks for the tip. I am new to forming. I will get better.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

I am still only finding anecdotal evidence to the light spectrum making better pot except the 3 to 1 findings.


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## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> But why was HPS disappointing? And is the Hortilux Super HPS spectrum better so I am not disappointed by a plain HPS?


It is well known that a deep blue spectrum grows more trics and it is also well known that is where the magic is ,,,, more trics, more potency, pretty simple actually


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> It is well known that a deep blue spectrum grows more trics and it is also well known that is where the magic is ,,,, more trics, more potency, pretty simple actually


I am sure you have done it many times but would you post a link of evidence that says that. 

I am not saying I believe the 3 to one as a rule either. 

Now that I have control of my grow maybe I should add something. 

I was going to put a 400 blue mh in between my HPS hoods to see if 3 in 1 is better. 

I am positive all of this is in diminishing returns past conventional methods but I don't mind a little return.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I am sure you have done it many times but would you post a link of evidence that says that.
> 
> I am not saying I believe the 3 to one as a rule either.
> 
> ...


There is no one link (that I am aware of) there are years of links with folks using MH with HPS or MH alone simply for the extra Blue, never seen an argument or debate bout more blue = more frost


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I grow by several different methods and for my personal stash it is t5 from start to finish. Mixed spectrum including UV is the way to go.
> 
> This is a 18+ inch cola. Yea I know they can be bigger. Its an auto. My point being it was rock hard and the lowers were to.
> 
> ...


Now, THAT is fucking beautiful.


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> There is no one link (that I am aware of) there are years of links with folks using MH with HPS or MH alone simply for the extra Blue, never seen an argument or debate bout more blue = more frost


RM3 definitely knows a thing or two about frost.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

I will look for a study. You are only offering opinions unless you can back them up. 

I am positive that there are results that prove an HPS beat a MH when alone for vigor size and potency as a rule. 

And when supplementing the 3 HPS to 1 MH was enough to boost plant health or something like that. 

I haven't slept. My symptoms are bad lately but I will look for something concrete. 

I hope you know I would never mean to try talking someone out of what works for them.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> RM3 definitely knows a thing or two about frost.


Many many growers know a thing or two about frost. Isn't that the whole point from the beginning?


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Many many growers know a thing or two about frost. Isn't that the whole point from the beginning?


You don't get it. Have you seen any of his stuff?


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Yes. I have been following these threads for three years. And a year previous to study growing at the library. And I also contacted every breeder I could find until I found one that would help me learn. 

And I have been commended for my garden by the man. 

What have you done for your grow?


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

The same as you, friend. Don't come here and talk shit just because you don't like my answer. RM3 is probably one of the best 3 growers on this site. I'm just telling you, anything he says, listen to him. It'd serve you well.


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

As for my grow, using only a 450w for two decently medium sized (3 feet from the medium), I have this. I'm going to give it three more weeks, and I'll have a second 450w light by Friday or Saturday. Should help a bit. They are only just starting to swell a bit.


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

My mass isn't crazy huge yet, but there's definitely something to say about that building frost.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

I was never arguing with anyone here and RM3 and I have been communicating here for days. 

I don't think we have a problem with each other he just a few minutes ago complimented me on my achievements. so why do you have a problem with me? 

And if I can finish trying to put up a web link I can pretty much settle this debate with at least professors of university results.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> As for my grow, using only a 450w for two decently medium sized (3 feet from the medium), I have this. I'm going to give it three more weeks, and I'll have a second 450w light by Friday or Saturday. Should help a bit. They are only just starting to swell a bit.
> 
> View attachment 3742768 View attachment 3742769 View attachment 3742770 View attachment 3742771 View attachment 3742772 View attachment 3742774 View attachment 3742775 View attachment 3742776


They look like they will fill out real nice.


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

I don't have an issue. You said "What have you done for your grow?" I mistook it for a cocky challenge. If I misperceived what you'd said, I truly apologize.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> My mass isn't crazy huge yet, but there's definitely something to say about that building frost.


Of course. But every factor in your room and genetics will determine the results. All things need to be adequate to luxery range for a plant. Only then can we achieve the plants potential.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Can someone tell me how to put up a web page link please? I am on an iPhone but not connected to the cloud so I don't have an automated option.


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

Just copy and paste the URL. Should turn into a hyperlink.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

I will try again thanks.


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## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

http://www.marijuanaventure.com/metal-halide-vs-high-pressure-sodium-age-old-question-cannabis-growers/

Please don't ask me to look up the referred studies. I swear I had them in my old computer. And I read everything I could. I was not trying to spew any mis information. 

And yes. The article is two years old now. It was new when I learned it. I am asking for new info here in the light thread but not getting any.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> http://www.marijuanaventure.com/metal-halide-vs-high-pressure-sodium-age-old-question-cannabis-growers/
> 
> Please don't ask me to look up the referred studies. I swear I had them in my old computer. And I read everything I could. I was not trying to spew any mis information.
> 
> And yes. The article is two years old now. It was new when I learned it. I am asking for new info here in the light thread but not getting any.


That article is about the whole blue for veg red for flower thing, doesn't mention usin it to finish a plant? 

Hell some growers use mercury vapor for the UV and that includes GW Pharma


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 27, 2016)

Why be a purist? Mix & match can work out great!
I've never had a T5, but if I did, I'd find a way to add it to my setup.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> That article is about the whole blue for veg red for flower thing, doesn't mention usin it to finish a plant?
> 
> Hell some growers use mercury vapor for the UV and that includes GW Pharma


MV is an excellent UVB source.


----------



## bravedave (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> There is no proof of anything in this post but that you are defending RM3


First, everyone is not required to do your legwork for you. Second, I was just relating my own experience. After going MH all the way for a year I switched to HPS for flower and the trich production was noticeably abysmal in comparison albeit my yield increased. Same strains, same methods. You don't have to believe me but I have a tendency to believe my own eyes. I now have settled into using MH for veg and the first and last 2 weeks of flower. I use HPS augmented with blue t5s for the rest of flower. Last grow I achieved just under 21 zips dry from 6 very sticky plants. May add the Agromax UV bulb soon though. 

Other than that , .


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> That article is about the whole blue for veg red for flower thing, doesn't mention usin it to finish a plant?
> 
> Hell some growers use mercury vapor for the UV and that includes GW Pharma


The article does not go into full detail of the studies. It pretty much just includes one quote per study. Is that enough to base or argue a premise?

I asked not to have to do the research for you. Do some real research please. Even just look up those studies. I have been asking for something like these studies so I know what to add to my room without blindly financing someone's opinion. 

And you guys are refuting without even looking anything up for yourselves. Not a reputable way to teach if my family of PhDs is right.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> And is the Hortilux Super HPS spectrum better so I am not disappointed by a plain HPS?


Hortilux HPS bulbs are definitely worth the extra money.


----------



## bravedave (Jul 27, 2016)

Y


MichiganMedGrower said:


> The article does not go into full detail of the studies. It pretty much just includes one quote per study. Is that enough to base or argue a premise?
> 
> I asked not to have to do the research for you. Do some real research please. Even just look up those studies. I have been asking for something like these studies so I know what to add to my room without blindly financing someone's opinion.
> 
> And you guys are refuting without even looking anything up for yourselves. Not a reputable way to teach if my family of PhDs is right.


Is your family of PHDs also entitled dicks like yourself?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> I don't have an issue. You said "What have you done for your grow?" I mistook it for a cocky challenge. If I misperceived what you'd said, I truly apologize.


No problem bud. I thought you were asking me for credibility.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> And you guys are refuting without even looking anything up for yourselves. Not a reputable way to teach if my family of PhDs is right.


Not refuting anything, not sayin every one should grow my way, I have only ever shared the results of my personal experiments for others to see and consider and I have over a tig of collected research papers


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Y
> 
> Is your family of PHDs also entitled dicks like yourself?


No reason for name calling, he is actually tryin to learn here let's please be civil


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> Hortilux HPS bulbs are definitely worth the extra money.


See I want to agree and I use them but I am needing actual proof why. The Hortilux doesn't even have the 3 to 1 ratio but I can't complain about my garden anymore. But it isn't different light that grew all the new trichs I have now.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> No problem bud. I thought you were asking me for credibility.


Know you're tired and I'm not tryin to argue but truth is there is very little science with regard to light and cannabis, though there is some


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Not refuting anything, not sayin every one should grow my way, I have only ever shared the results of my personal experiments for others to see and consider and I have over a tig of collected research papers


But you are not sharing said research. And I never said one thing about the way you grow or what you do except I think your wattage and coverage are correct for great buds.


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> No problem bud. I thought you were asking me for credibility.


I don't really care about your credibility, man. Like, you grow what you grow, and I'm sure you do or will grow good shit. It should matter more to you if you're satisfied with what you grow than if I'm satisfied with it. I can't smoke or smell it from here, y'know?


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> But you are not sharing said research. And I never said one thing about the way you grow or what you do except I think your wattage and coverage are correct for great buds.


because none of it is what you are askin for, I don't know of any that verifies the deep blue grows more trics topic, why I have done my own and shared it


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Y
> 
> Is your family of PHDs also entitled dicks like yourself?


They are. I am the black sheep of my family. And I have no idea why you are mad at me. I was only referring to research and I was answering someone else.


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> They are. I am the black sheep of my family. And I have no idea why you are mad at me. I was only referring to research and I was answering someone else.


Hey, man. Breathe for a second and listen to me. A lot of guys here are Type A. This is a good thing, as it keeps us challenging each other to do a bit better. However, if you start off here sounding like you know what you're talking about without a single grow down, people aren't going to react well. Consider their harshness an attempt at breaking your ego. 

Every one I see you interacting with here is actually a really cool guy if you aren't arrogant, and I guarantee they'd be very much willing to help you.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> I don't really care about your credibility, man. Like, you grow what you grow, and I'm sure you do or will grow good shit. It should matter more to you if you're satisfied with what you grow than if I'm satisfied with it. I can't smoke or smell it from here, y'know?


Wow. Is there any way to discuss anything without this kind of attacks. I have posted frosty buds that look equal to RM3 and have been talking about quality as it relates to light. I did not mean in any way to enhance any bad feelings. I don't know any of you. 

It's funny. I was an Internet sales manager for a long time and this is just like the love hate relationships instantly formed when answering e mails from customers. 

I hope there is more love than hate over all.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Hey, man. Breathe for a second and listen to me. A lot of guys here are Type A. This is a good thing, as it keeps us challenging each other to do a bit better. However, if you start off here sounding like you know what you're talking about without a single grow down, people aren't going to react well. Consider their harshness an attempt at breaking your ego.
> 
> Every one I see you interacting with here is actually a really cool guy if you aren't arrogant, and I guarantee they'd be very much willing to help you.


Well said.


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Wow. Is there any way to discuss anything without this kind of attacks. I have posted frosty buds that look equal to RM3 and have been talking about quality as it relates to light. I did not mean in any way to enhance any bad feelings. I don't know any of you.
> 
> It's funny. I was an Internet sales manager for a long time and this is just like the love hate relationships instantly formed when answering e mails from customers.
> 
> I hope there is more love than hate over all.


Yo, what the hell are you talking about? That was NOT an attack. That was me being upfront and legit with you. Your grow's your personal baby, not mine. Grow thicker skin. And that's not an attack either, that is me imploring you to do what would behoove you.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> because none of it is what you are askin for, I don't know of any that verifies the deep blue grows more trics topic, why I have done my own and shared it


Is it documented and photographed like a journal?

Cause I would love to see. I am open and asking about these things. But I need to believe for myself and you are not offering a compelling argument.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Is it documented and photographed like a journal?
> 
> Cause I would love to see. I am open and asking about these things. But I need to believe for myself and you are not offering a compelling argument.


Have you read my journal here, there is some of it there, but I post in several forums not just my own


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> Hey, man. Breathe for a second and listen to me. A lot of guys here are Type A. This is a good thing, as it keeps us challenging each other to do a bit better. However, if you start off here sounding like you know what you're talking about without a single grow down, people aren't going to react well. Consider their harshness an attempt at breaking your ego.
> 
> Every one I see you interacting with here is actually a really cool guy if you aren't arrogant, and I guarantee they'd be very much willing to help you.


Ok. Your advise is good advise. But I have been interacting on 3 or 4 threads and posting pics of my perpetual grow for 2 days. That is all I have been here. And my alert screen is full of likes and helpful advise. Why do you personally all of the sudden need to educate me. You don't know me?

I thought we were getting along. Just a mis communication.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Have you read my journal here, there is some of it there, but I post in several forums not just my own


Yes. I have said before that I have searched out all of yours and uncle bens threads. Now that I can enlarge pics I will read many more. 

Your garden is beautiful and I like what you have done. Except boiling the poor plant. But I want to know things that are concrete before I buy another light. Or change anything in my room for that matter. 

Why is honesty and hard work looked at as a negative when you tell people stuff?


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Ok. Your advise is good advise. But I have been interacting on 3 or 4 threads and posting pics of my perpetual grow for 2 days. That is all I have been here. And my alert screen is full of likes and helpful advise. Why do you personally all of the sudden need to educate me. You don't know me?
> 
> I thought we were getting along. Just a mis communication.


I'm not. I'm spelling out for you what some of the guys here are trying to tell you without telling you. I'm not educating you on shit besides what's clearly going over your head. These people are trying to tell you something and you're misperceiving it.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> I'm not. I'm spelling out for you what some of the guys here are trying to tell you without telling you. I'm not educating you on shit besides what's clearly going over your head. These people are trying to tell you something and you're misperceiving it.


Which guys. I have 22 people that have no problem with me and you and Tty telling me how to be liked here. 

Can't get along with everyone anywhere but I like these odds.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Yes. I have said before that I have searched out all of yours and uncle bens threads. Now that I can enlarge pics I will read many more.
> 
> Your garden is beautiful and I like what you have done. Except boiling the poor plant. But I want to know things that are concrete before I buy another light. Or change anything in my room for that matter.
> 
> Why is honesty and hard work looked at as a negative when you tell people stuff?


I've actually posted the science on the boil the roots thing because it is out there

I really have no idea why folks disagree and attack so much here? It didn't used to be that way (as much) I post in other forums and get thank yous with not a single negative post in my threads? 

It is what it is

Oh and I am not telling to change or add anything to your garden


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Which guys. I have 22 people that have no problem with me and you and Tty telling me how to be liked here.
> 
> Can't get along with everyone anywhere but I like these odds.


You're just reinforcing my perception of your arrogance and inability to take constructive criticism. You're the one bitching about people being mean to you. Fuck you, then, I won't try to help you figure it out.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

bravedave said:


> First, everyone is not required to do your legwork for you. Second, I was just relating my own experience. After going MH all the way for a year I switched to HPS for flower and the trich production was noticeably abysmal in comparison albeit my yield increased. Same strains, same methods. You don't have to believe me but I have a tendency to believe my own eyes. I now have settled into using MH for veg and the first and last 2 weeks of flower. I use HPS augmented with blue t5s for the rest of flower. Last grow I achieved just under 21 zips dry from 6 very sticky plants. May add the Agromax UV bulb soon though.
> 
> Other than that , .


I'm sorry. It seems to be 3 out of 20. I don't know what you are defending either. But you have by far the most childish post of the night 

And there have been some doozies.


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

You're too fucking defensive, man. And in your defensiveness, you show your arrogance. You're probably going to draw really negative vibes. I was only trying to help you not get discouraged with the site. But you seem to think that you're being attacked instead of corrected, and you want to act big back. Well, to hell with you, then.


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

If you met 20 people on here that "like you," you're going to find 80 more that don't. That's the way of this site, and that's why we were trying to prep you.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> I've actually posted the science on the boil the roots thing because it is out there
> 
> I really have no idea why folks disagree and attack so much here? It didn't used to be that way (as much) I post in other forums and get thank yous with not a single negative post in my threads?
> 
> ...


I was hoping you liked to talk and further your entertainment of our hobby. But you are broken record defending something I have not mentioned in one post. You have mentioned it in them all. 

And I just use a light fade to accomplish your dangerous methods results. You want stoners bringing boiling water into their new garden. Good idea. At least my hoods are sealed. What does a splash do to a t5?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> If you met 20 people on here that "like you," you're going to find 80 more that don't. That's the way of this site, and that's why we were trying to prep you.


You're still at this. I just took a nice toke.


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I was hoping you liked to talk and further your entertainment of our hobby. But you are broken record defending something I have not mentioned in one post. You have mentioned it in them all.
> 
> And I just use a light fade to accomplish your dangerous methods results. You want stoners bringing boiling water into their new garden. Good idea. At least my hoods are sealed. What does a splash do to a t5?


See? This. Right here. I just told you RM3 is the one of the top 3 growers on this site, and look what you're doing. Acting like you know better.


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> You're still at this. I just took a nice toke.


See what I mean? Don't worry, though. It's not me looking bad to everyone. You're seriously making yourself look really stupid and no one is going to want to help you when you need it. Happy growing.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I was hoping you liked to talk and further your entertainment of our hobby. But you are broken record defending something I have not mentioned in one post. You have mentioned it in them all.
> 
> And I just use a light fade to accomplish your dangerous methods results. You want stoners bringing boiling water into their new garden. Good idea. At least my hoods are sealed. What does a splash do to a t5?


Brother I'll sit and talk with ya all day, I love growin this plant and talkin bout it, tis why I'm here

I've never splashed or spilled the boiled water, so I can't answer that


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> You're just reinforcing my perception of your arrogance and inability to take constructive criticism. You're the one bitching about people being mean to you. Fuck you, then, I won't try to help you figure it out.


Thanks.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> See what I mean? Don't worry, though. It's not me looking bad to everyone. You're seriously making yourself look really stupid and no one is going to want to help you when you need it. Happy growing,


please edit the name out, there is no need and he has been up all night, perhaps he needs some sleep


----------



## Olive Drab Green (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> please edit the name out, there is no need and he has been up all night, perhaps he needs some sleep


Will do.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Brother I'll sit and talk with ya all day, I love growin this plant and talkin bout it, tis why I'm here
> 
> I've never splashed or spilled the boiled water, so I can't answer that


Like boiling water is any different than the room temp water I use to water my plants. I thought all our grow areas get wet from time to time?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> If you met 20 people on here that "like you," you're going to find 80 more that don't. That's the way of this site, and that's why we were trying to prep you.


Are you going to keep yelling at me for no reason. It's just posting on the Internet. I will go hide in shame cause everyone doesn't like me. 

Dude. I am already disabled. Is your opinion supposed to hurt me more. Can't you just talk about plants please?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Brother I'll sit and talk with ya all day, I love growin this plant and talkin bout it, tis why I'm here
> 
> I've never splashed or spilled the boiled water, so I can't answer that


You haven't. You are an experienced and successful grower. More than me. You plants in your thread were perfect. And different strains. Super high level of competency if you asked me. 

But see. I said you might teach a beginner who has not carried around our stupid heavy 5 gallon buckets and they may splash a ballast perhaps? Standing in a puddle already freaking out burned from the splashing boiling water.....


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> You haven't. You are an experienced and successful grower. More than me. You plants in your thread were perfect. And different strains. Super high level of competency if you asked me.
> 
> But see. I said you might teach a beginner who has not carried around our stupid heavy 5 gallon buckets and they may splash a ballast perhaps? Standing in a puddle already freaking out burned from the splashing boiling water.....


Check your PM's brother


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Olive Drab Green said:


> See what I mean? Don't worry, though. It's not me looking bad to everyone. You're seriously making yourself look really stupid and no one is going to want to help you when you need it. Happy growing.


Ok man. I look bad to the members. The only one still acting mad at me in multiple threads is you.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

And I was wrong about the numbers. I only counted the likes on page 1. There are 12 pages of them. It looks like 100's to 3. 

And I have not attacked any one of you. Just debated your comment.


----------



## dabbindylan (Jul 27, 2016)

North 303 grower..t5 x led...rm3 & olive & Michiganmed


----------



## dabbindylan (Jul 27, 2016)

Flower room.. right side week 4..left side front week1..left side back week 3


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

dabbindylan said:


> North 303 grower..t5 x led...rm3 & olive & Michiganmed


Now that shit looks nice and sticky. I am wanting to know if it is truly better. 

Super HPS grown 1st jar mostly sativa. 2nd jar some more indica in the hybrid. Real strong and long lasting high's.


----------



## dabbindylan (Jul 27, 2016)

Clone / mother area


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Latest Hortilux super HPS ready for harvest. Ch9 Blue lemon Thai.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

T-5 for veg. Front plant takin up a bit too much nutes since tranplant. Added happy frog for the mycos and it seems to be working well.


----------



## dabbindylan (Jul 27, 2016)

4.1 ozs from this plant


----------



## dabbindylan (Jul 27, 2016)

Jar size n stuff


----------



## bravedave (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I'm sorry. It seems to be 3 out of 20. I don't know what you are defending either. But you have by far the most childish post of the night
> 
> And there have been some doozies.


Listen friend. I posted my experience and you criticized it for lacking proof while I was just providing info on what I witnessed. Feel free to doubt it, but voice it and you are calling me a liar. I then read your other posts and most sounded like you demanding people to do your legwork. Sorry, noone is required to drop everything and source things for you.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Listen friend. I posted my experience and you criticized it for lacking proof while I was just providing info on what I witnessed. Feel free to doubt it, but voice it and you are calling me a liar. I then read your other posts and most sounded like you demanding people to do your legwork. Sorry, noone is required to drop everything and source things for you.


You wrote HAS made a difference in your garden and well before your post I asked for real proof. Our word is not proof. I have posted some info to get a real discussion started and you took a pretty standard comment in a debate and have been cursing me out for it. I was not challenging. You defended rm3 as your proof only. I would love to know proof. I will set up t5 or led in a new room. 

I never meant to offend you man.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 27, 2016)

bravedave said:


> First, everyone is not required to do your legwork for you. Second, I was just relating my own experience. After going MH all the way for a year I switched to HPS for flower and the trich production was noticeably abysmal in comparison albeit my yield increased. Same strains, same methods. You don't have to believe me but I have a tendency to believe my own eyes. I now have settled into using MH for veg and the first and last 2 weeks of flower. I use HPS augmented with blue t5s for the rest of flower. Last grow I achieved just under 21 zips dry from 6 very sticky plants. May add the Agromax UV bulb soon though.
> 
> Other than that , .


UV was the key for me. If you run MH "bare bulb", your plants are getting UV.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Now that there is empirical evidence of. A few percent thc I read.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> See I want to agree and I use them but I am needing actual proof why. The Hortilux doesn't even have the 3 to 1 ratio but I can't complain about my garden anymore. But it isn't different light that grew all the new trichs I have now.


My only proof is experience. I've run three different brands in my tent, and the hortilux is producing more & better bud.
Whether or not you see a difference probably depends on overall brightness in your grow area. My setup is minimal, so small changes can cause noticeable results.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> My only proof is experience. I've run three different brands in my tent, and the hortilux is producing more & better bud.
> Whether or not you see a difference probably depends on overall brightness in your grow area. My setup is minimal, so small changes can cause noticeable results.


Well I can have the meds tested. But we stay out of the way here for now 

Although experience like you just shared and research is why I paid for Hortilux 3 years in a row now.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 27, 2016)

"Can't we all just get along?"

-Rodney King


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

I'm finally going to sleep guys. Thanks for all the comments.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> "Can't we all just get along?"
> 
> -Rodney King


Yeah he proved that would work. Lol


----------



## RM3 (Jul 27, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> "Can't we all just get along?"
> 
> -Rodney King


Can't we all just smoke a bong

Rm3


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

No offense meant by that to anyone. Just sarcasm.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Can't we all just smoke a bong
> 
> Rm3


Much better. And I put my sleeping meds in mine a bit ago. Night brother.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 27, 2016)

Chunky Stool said:


> My only proof is experience. I've run three different brands in my tent, and the hortilux is producing more & better bud.
> Whether or not you see a difference probably depends on overall brightness in your grow area. My setup is minimal, so small changes can cause noticeable results.


Same here. Ive used arcadia, hortilux and agromax. But my space is very bright. The plants are getting something useful from the hortilux that the others arent providing.

This run i used the hortilux for most of the flowering and im using the agromax for the final weeks with less exposure. If worthwhile ill give an update.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Well I can have the meds tested. But we stay out of the way here for now
> 
> Although experience like you just shared and research is why I paid for Hortilux 3 years in a row now.


You know hortilux makes t5 bulbs but they are pricey. 

Hid can lose up to 50% of output and actually fairly quick.

T5 will only lose about 10% and that's over the whole life of the bulb.

The actual proof you are looking for may or may not be there. 

You just have to accept that some of us will go against what the mainstream is doing. You also have to put a little trust in our conclusions. 

Its not like we randomly ended up here.


----------



## bravedave (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> You wrote HAS made a difference in your garden and well before your post I asked for real proof. Our word is not proof. I have posted some info to get a real discussion started and you took a pretty standard comment in a debate and have been cursing me out for it. I was not challenging. You defended rm3 as your proof only. I would love to know proof. I will set up t5 or led in a new room.
> 
> I never meant to offend you man.


Your arrogant, entitled personae is offensive. Yeah, unfortunately I did not have the Martha Stewart film crew following me around as I witnessed what I witnessed. Who was following you and Rosenthal's editor's brother's pool guy around when you provided him pictures?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

my t5 bulbs went too long. 14 months. The plants showed slow growth and deficiencies. 

So I will keep t5 to a year. They were a mix of GE and spectralux. 

The super HPS bulbs from hortilux show some dimming and plant slowing at 10 months. And more lumen loss. They recomend 9 months for excellerated growing so about right on. All 3 years. But I think ceramic mh will replace my t5 lamps in all applications.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

bravedave said:


> Your arrogant, entitled personae is offensive. Yeah, unfortunately I did not have the Martha Stewart film crew following me around as I witnessed what I witnessed. Who was following you and Rosenthal's editor's brother's pool guy around when you provided him pictures?


Ok. You have done your best to pick me apart. I go sleep now. Nice to meet you brave Dave. You have me all wrong and you are the only one doing this. What do you want? Me to apologize to you for cursing me out on a discussion forum. I only mentioned my accomplishments because they check out. Why is that starting a fight? 
thanks for the good vibes on a marijuana forum.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Ok. You have done your best to pick me apart. I go sleep now. Nice to meet you brave Dave. You have me all wrong and you are the only one doing this. What do you want? Me to apologize to you for cursing me out on a discussion forum. I only mentioned my accomplishments because they check out. Why is that starting a fight?
> thanks for the good vibes on a marijuana forum.


And just to clarify. I never said I knew mr Rosenthal. The breeder of the strains I prefer does. Since 1993 when Ed have him some new medical clones in California. All I did was impress the breeder with pictures of my plants. He posts and refers them. I send them for helpful advise.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

Oops I self quoted. Time for bed.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 27, 2016)

testiclees said:


> Same here. Ive used arcadia, hortilux and agromax. But my space is very bright. The plants are getting something useful from the hortilux that the others arent providing.
> 
> This run i used the hortilux for most of the flowering and im using the agromax for the final weeks with less exposure. If worthwhile ill give an update.


Something useful that a cheap bulb doesn't have. My thoughts exactly. It's in their mix. It's the added blue right?


----------



## testiclees (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Something useful that a cheap bulb doesn't have. My thoughts exactly. It's in their mix. It's the added blue right?


It might be the blue. Im not exactly sure . Im running 350w4k and 200w3500k. I need to look at the spectral charts. The plants grow great with judt the cobs but the t5 adds something desirable. The agromax is potent and will toast broad leaved indicas even at a distance.


----------



## bravedave (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> And just to clarify. I never said I knew mr Rosenthal. The breeder of the strains I prefer does. Since 1993 when Ed have him some new medical clones in California. All I did was impress the breeder with pictures of my plants. He posts and refers them. I send them for helpful advise.


Never said you said...so you start with a straw man....
What you did say, you have provided no proof of. So we just have your word. Funny how that plays. 

Of course, any ones experience, especially on the internet, has to be taken for what it is... I have gathered many things here and usually it comes through reading the experience of many and forming my own opinion and then testing that opinion. I did not go around demanding proof of people as if they owed me something more than their word. We can be done and I will leave you alone so you can get back to defoliating and flushing.


----------



## bravedave (Jul 27, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Guess you didn't bother to read the thread we are posting in. I have been against defoliation in my room.
> 
> And you can go on CH9 Female Seeds Facebook, Instagtam or their website to find his postings of me. I don't even have an account or the ability to post at these sites. You can also find pics of my garden around here now.
> 
> ...


Dear member since Thursday,

No, sorry, I missed your comment about defoliation. My reference was tongue in cheek. 

Ummm...so still no proof about your imagined prowess. Your statement about mine makes little sense, but yeah I do just fine. Just a little grow to satisfy my wife's medical needs. 

I seemed to also have witnessed you not "having fun" with everyone. You have a pretty short memory or possibly your delusions are not limited to grandeur. 

Your initial response was that of a dick. I simply shared what I experienced as well as why all indications pointed to my conclusion. Your wanting more proof is not my problem nor my responsibility to provide. If you did not mean to slight, then you lack some communication skills. 

As far as an apology, come back with something more than blather about where we can go and find these accredited pics that you yourself are unable to go and find. Right now you sound like a fraud not to mention a hypocrite...demanding others work to provide you proof while offering none yourself.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 28, 2016)

RM3 said:


> Can't we all just smoke a bong
> 
> Rm3


Hey guys. I wrote a long apology but that was also off topic here so I started to delete all my argumentative crap but after a couple pages it disappeared. 

Sorry to get caught up in the bullshit. I did not mean to derail the thread. 

And I still can't decide what light to buy for my new space.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 28, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Also why do you guys think you have some kind of responsibility to the newbs? Your arguments aren't helping. I read here to learn how to grow. This is by far the most entertaining weed site. I read everything and am familiar with all of the well known posters.
> 
> Only thing is this is really important to me and all you all did was confuse me. So I went to the library and ordered gardening books. And when I wanted to learn lighting. The universities and the actual lighting companies. ( I mean GE, Phillips, Eye Lighting etc. )
> 
> ...


There's a reason you won't switch from HPS to T5 and it's not because I confused you. You know very well that HPS is a better light and that spending more money up front for a light with higher overhead costs would be foolish.

Don't get an attitude with me. It's very clear that you're just trying to argue in general because otherwise what you've been saying has mostly been in agreement with what I've been posting. (you're just argumentative in general and can't agree with anything)

There are people trying to confuse you... and it's not me. Again, quit listening to these *T5 fools*.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> There's a reason you won't switch from HPS to T5 and it's not because I confused you. It's because you know very well that HPS is a better light and that spending more money up front for a light with higher overhead costs is just foolish.
> 
> Don't get an attitude with me. It's very clear that you're just trying to argue in general because otherwise what you've been saying has mostly been in agreement with what I've been posting. (you're just argumentative in general and can't agree with anything)
> 
> Btw, if math is confusing to you, I'm sorry. You should ask your PHD family to explain it. There are people trying to confuse you... and it's not me. Again, quit listening to these *T5 fools*.


Please take it easy man. I apologized right above this post for my behavior. I would have deleted all posts like the one you just quoted but after a few deletes the button disappeared. 

I acted poorly my excuses are just excuses and I admit to being derailed by a few posters. 

I meant no ill will. I didn't think I would ever end up arguing and stuff like that but I think my illness has beaten me more than I thought.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 28, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I asked earlier but got no response. How far from the canopy do the cobs have to be away. I am a stress free grower. I do not force light on plants. So my air cooled 600's are always at least 18" above. That seems to be my threshold of comfort for the plants since I added the second one.
> 
> I have space albeit small and may set up some more cabs.


It depends how powerful the cobs are. You can either run fewer cobs more powerfully or more cobs less powerfully. Air cooling won't really make a difference in cooling radiant heat. You can keep them much closer than 18 inches if you have a low profile build. (more cobs each powered less). It's hard to give a particular answer to this question without asking about more specific parameters.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> It depends how powerful the cobs are. You can either run fewer cobs more powerfully or more cobs less powerfully. Air cooling won't really make a difference in cooling radiant heat. You can keep them much closer than 18 inches if you have a low profile build. (more cobs each powered less). It's hard to give a particular answer to this question without asking about more specific parameters.


Thank you. I will read the basics as I didn't know they could be so variable.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 28, 2016)

Dear @churchhaze,
Quit being a shit to the new guy. We all have issues, and Lord knows you're no exception, so lighten up. 

Thank you! 

PS I've grown great weed under T5, so I'm thinking you're just butt hurt cuz you can't do the same?


----------



## Resinhound (Jul 28, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Dear @churchhaze,
> Quit being a shit to the new guy. We all have issues, and Lord knows you're no exception, so lighten up.
> 
> Thank you!
> ...


Church being a shit?? Nah you must be confusing him with someone else that's a total ass hat because the churchhaze I know is a pussy cat


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 28, 2016)

Resinhound said:


> Church being a shit?? Nah you must be confusing him with someone else that's a total ass hat because the churchhaze I know is a pussy cat


Wanna see all the claw marks I have from MY fuckin 'pussy' cat? Lol


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 28, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> PS I've grown great weed under T5, so I'm thinking you're just butt hurt cuz you can't do the same?


I don't care if pointing out your T5 nonsense makes me an asshat. Sell your cobs and grow with T5 if they're so good.


----------



## Resinhound (Jul 28, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I don't care if pointing out your T5 nonsense makes me an asshat. Sell your cobs and grow with T5 if they're so good.


It not the fact you are pointing out "nonsense" it has more to do with your fucked up delivery. In nearly every post you make. But I personally don't have a problem with you. I think you sometimes post useful info.


----------



## Budgoro88 (Jul 29, 2016)

I use HPS and LED with T5 for the center guess I can't join This convo


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 29, 2016)

Budgoro88 said:


> I use HPS and LED with T5 for the center guess I can't join This convo


I got a question for ya?

How do you hang them all and balance the intensities?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 29, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> Dear @churchhaze,
> Quit being a shit to the new guy. We all have issues, and Lord knows you're no exception, so lighten up.
> 
> Thank you!
> ...


Thanks I didn't know you were defending me here. Can we start over dude? I went too far.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 29, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Thanks I didn't know you were defending me here. Can we start over dude? I went too far.


Just don't question their cult leader again and there won't be any problems.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 29, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Just don't question their cult leader again and there won't be any problems.


Well I'm not going to change my personality and experience or anything. Just didn't mean to get into it with anyone like that.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> There's a reason you won't switch from HPS to T5 and it's not because I confused you. You know very well that HPS is a better light and that spending more money up front for a light with higher overhead costs would be foolish.
> 
> Don't get an attitude with me. It's very clear that you're just trying to argue in general because otherwise what you've been saying has mostly been in agreement with what I've been posting. (you're just argumentative in general and can't agree with anything)
> 
> ...


----------



## slapmehard (Jul 30, 2016)

And who said you can't be too smart?
there is NO one type of light that's good for everyone or place
damn I am sorry to even join this forum with all the bullshit fighting around here what is it a 19 year old or younger forum?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

You have to open this. I don't know how my comment got quoted inside.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> You have to open this. I don't know how my comment got quoted inside.


Technical difficulties.


----------



## Budgoro88 (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I got a question for ya?
> 
> How do you hang them all and balance the intensities?


I have the t5 in the center of the room emitting 360 degrees my hps hoods surrounding that and on the outskirts aimed in I have LED panels


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> There's a reason you won't switch from HPS to T5 and it's not because I confused you. You know very well that HPS is a better light and that spending more money up front for a light with higher overhead costs would be foolish.
> 
> Don't get an attitude with me. It's very clear that you're just trying to argue in general because otherwise what you've been saying has mostly been in agreement with what I've been posting. (you're just argumentative in general and can't agree with anything)
> 
> There are people trying to confuse you... and it's not me. Again, quit listening to these *T5 fools*.



Lol. 

Care to post your buds up against some t5 bud? No? Why is that?


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Lol.
> 
> Care to post your buds up against some t5 bud? No? Why is that?


Because the T5 buds 10x better?


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> I don't care if pointing out your T5 nonsense makes me an asshat. Sell your cobs and grow with T5 if they're so good.


No one is saying that. Fuck just go on somewhere.

I said mixed spectrum is better. I don't care how you get it.

The fact of the matter is that t5 can grow weed just fine. Grows a damn good product.

My t5 cost $20 a month to run. $100 to buy with bulbs included and I've only bought one set of bulb in a year. Not that expensive.

I think ttystick got it right. I think you are butt hurt that there are guys throwing down better product than you with a lesser light.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

Budgoro88 said:


> I have the t5 in the center of the room emitting 360 degrees my hps hoods surrounding that and on the outskirts aimed in I have LED panels



Wow. That sounds covered !


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> No one is saying that dummy. Fuck just go on somewhere.
> 
> I said mixed spectrum is better. I don't care how you get it.
> 
> ...


There are people growing better weed than me obviously, but it's not you or ttystick. I'm not butthurt because some guys on the internet claim their weed is better than mine. Yeah right.

You should really consider *upgrading *to HPS. Your stubbornness is really causing you to miss out.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> But *the best lighting is chosen for each individual situation* and there are always tons of variables that apply to the decision. And of course what we like comes into play too.


Never T5.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/smashing-fluorescent-lamps.864130/

There's never a time when you want to spend more to buy a less efficient lamp. (~25%) What's going to be the big next fad? Are we going back to candles? Fireflies in a jar?

T5 calculations:


Gavita calculations:


That's the most efficient T5HO I've found so far up against Philips master greenpower..

27.4% vs 38.1% radiant efficiency? *No contest *unless your goal is to have the highest electricity bill and the largest impact on the environment.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

I'm not for or against any light system. I just started with HPS for flowering. So I scaled up from there. I had mentioned I use Hortilux Super HPS 600's so maybe some of what full spectrum lighting seems to have is in there but I have seen quality from both. 

 For this room I seem to be giving the plants what they need I think. It is as much about everything else.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Never T5.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/smashing-fluorescent-lamps.864130/
> 
> ...



thanks for finding that. Don't know what happened.

I didn't know we were only talking about electrical efficiency.

I wouldn't put my blockbuster hood in a 4x4 tent like when I was new again. Seemed like it would fit and I did pretty well with it for a couple of years.

But the huge heavy thing was anything but efficient for me to use crammed in there with the carbon filter and everything.

Always lots of things to think about in a growroom set up.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Never T5.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/smashing-fluorescent-lamps.864130/
> 
> ...


Charts aren't everything. Like I said, my t5 and the bulbs that came with it are about the same as a cheap hid 400 setup with open hood. Now I would have to pay extra for gavita bulbs.

Cost me $20 a month to run my t5. And one set of bulbs that cost me around $50 in a years time. 

I don't see how I'm missing out. I have plenty to smoke.

Feel free to post your pics and shame us all in the t5 section.


----------



## testiclees (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Wow. That sounds covered !


That's what I was thinking


----------



## Budgoro88 (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Wow. That sounds covered !


Yea all reality I could prob eliminate the t5 but I use that more to correct the hps so I can see the natural colors more to look for pests and leave symptoms led and hps increased my yield probably 50 %


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> But the huge heavy thing was anything but *efficient for me* to use crammed in there with the carbon filter and everything.


"Efficient" really isn't the best word to be using there unless you think you can somehow quantify it somewhere between 0-1 and without units.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Feel free to post your pics and shame us all in the t5 section.


You've already seen pictures of me destroying your yield. You're gonna choke on your words when I do finally get to post more pictures publicly.

The reality is that you're just in denial about your T5 and don't want to grow as a grower. You're in so much denial that you think T5 has redeeming qualities.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

Budgoro88 said:


> Yea all reality I could prob eliminate the t5 but I use that more to correct the hps so I can see the natural colors more to look for pests and leave symptoms led and hps increased my yield probably 50 %



I miss the natural light. I used to have a blue on one side. 

And the argument will go on but I got more growth and more potency from the Super HPS as long as the watts were the same.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> "Efficient" really isn't the best word to be using there unless you think you can somehow quantify it somewhere between 0-1 and without units.


So you missed my point then?


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You've already seen pictures of me destroying your yield. You're gonna choke on your words when I do finally get to post more pictures publicly.
> 
> The reality is that you're just in denial about your T5 and don't want to grow as a grower. You're in so much denial that you think T5 has redeeming qualities.


What are you waiting for? Show away.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> So you missed my point then?


Actually yes. Lamps don't become more or less efficient for certain types of grows. That's what you were claiming.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Actually yes. Less efficient lamps don't become more or less efficient for certain types of grows. That's what you were claiming.


I'd say it's what you're claiming. I'm claiming that there are other factors than type of lamp used to be considered.


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I'd say it's what you're claiming. I'm claiming that there are other factors than type of lamp used to be considered.


That's why it's important that you use the correct words.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

How would you have put it for me?


----------



## churchhaze (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> How would you have put it for me?


Maybe that you think it's less effective?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

I think if you have limited height or for a gentler evenly lit veg area they can be the right choice.

Or for a million other creative reasons I am sure... 

Like my reason;

If you need to flower in a closet like my 80 year old house with low ceilings like I want to have a finishing spot for almost done plants I am debating cmh or t5. They seem the right choices. 

But I love my sunlight supply 2 ft 8 bulb with ge bulbs installed. And I was thinking half and half red and blue or a little more red instead.

It isn't an either or kind of situation. They are all tools.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> Maybe that you think it's less effective?



I keep forgetting the reply button so please look above


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 30, 2016)

churchhaze said:


> You've already seen pictures of me destroying your yield. You're gonna choke on your words when I do finally get to post more pictures publicly.
> 
> The reality is that you're just in denial about your T5 and don't want to grow as a grower. You're in so much denial that you think T5 has redeeming qualities.


I saw some plants hanging. They looked good. 

Yield? Those could've been wet in the pic. Looked like a decent haul for the watts used.

Your statement about yield means nothing really. For one your basing that on my auto run with single colas. 

My previous scrog run yielded a lot more but had problems.

I'm sure cobs and hid yield more. Doesn't mean better.

I think mixed spectrum is better and the only way to achieve that in my space is t5.

I very well know where t5 stands in performance and efficiency. I know where it stands compared to other types of lights.

Knowing all this, I still choose to run t5. I like the product it produces.

I have not made any other claims. I have not claimed it will yield more, cost less or anything of the sort.

I don't even push t5 unless someone is already considering it.

Now, can we get on with talking about t5's in this t5 thread without you being an ass in it?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I saw some plants hanging. They looked good.
> 
> Yield? Those could've been wet in the pic. Looked like a decent haul for the watts used.
> 
> ...



Nicely said. May I ask yours and other opinions about using my 8 bulb T5 for finishing flowers just across the room from my 1200 watts of HPS. The area will get quite a bit of ambient light from the big hoods. 

Need 2 ft Bulbs so I think Hortilux is out for now.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Nicely said. May I ask yours and other opinions about using my 8 bulb T5 for finishing flowers just across the room from my 1200 watts of HPS. The area will get quite a bit of ambient light from the big hoods.
> 
> Need 2 ft Bulbs so I think Hortilux is out for now.


Htg supply has a good selection of t5 bulbs.
http://www.htgsupply.com/categories/grow-light-components/grow-light-bulbs/t5-bulbs

I think @hyroot posted a link for thier eBay store and the bulbs were cheaper.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

I forgot to say what spectrums and brands you all suggest for the 8 bulb? I will check out that store too. 

I have been posting about the 3 to one ratio red to blue but for finishing maybe more blue as you guys seem to notice improvement. Now is my chance to see for myself with my garden showing consistent results.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Jul 30, 2016)

I would use a couple of the 10,000k finishing bulbs. One with the uva added if using it just to finish.

If you are heavy red in flower going heavy blue the last bit will benefit it. 

Some that use single bulb hid setups will use mh through stretch then hps and then the mh again the last week or two.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 30, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Nicely said. May I ask yours and other opinions about using my 8 bulb T5 for finishing flowers just across the room from my 1200 watts of HPS. The area will get quite a bit of ambient light from the big hoods.
> 
> Need 2 ft Bulbs so I think Hortilux is out for now.





whitebb2727 said:


> Htg supply has a good selection of t5 bulbs.
> http://www.htgsupply.com/categories/grow-light-components/grow-light-bulbs/t5-bulbs
> 
> I think @hyroot posted a link for thier eBay store and the bulbs were cheaper.



just search agro max t5 on ebay. thats htg supply's brand. 

id go with a mix of the 5400k and 2700k.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> I would use a couple of the 10,000k finishing bulbs. One with the uva added if using it just to finish.
> 
> If you are heavy red in flower going heavy blue the last bit will benefit it.
> 
> Some that use single bulb hid setups will use mh through stretch then hps and then the mh again the last week or two.


Nice comparison


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

hyroot said:


> just search agro max t5 on ebay. thats htg supply's brand.
> 
> id go with a mix of the 5400k and 2700k.


Mine are 6500k now. I think Ge reds are the 2700. What ratio do you like?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 30, 2016)

I might be wrong about that 6500k. It's standard for ge and spectralux.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 30, 2016)

I've flowered under T12 and while it was fluffy, it was also potent!

I think those who like what they get under T5 will absolutely love their results from COB LED. 

Less heat, better spectrum, more performance. Even the initial cost is coming down. 

Oh, and quality? People can tell the difference between my best HID grown produce and that grown under COB LED...


_From across the room. _


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Jul 31, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I've flowered under T12 and while it was fluffy, it was also potent!
> 
> I think those who like what they get under T5 will absolutely love their results from COB LED.
> 
> ...



I'm only considering the t5 spot to finish during a maybe 2 water fade while the plant doesn't really need the HPS. With the galaxy ballasts and blockbuster hoods I'm getting some foxtailing and leaf bleaching that last week. And I can't lower the plants anymore by then. 

I think the full spectrum and reduced intensity may help quality during that time. While she yellows a little.


----------



## PerroVerde (Aug 11, 2016)

ttystikk said:


> I've flowered under T12 and while it was fluffy, it was also potent!
> 
> I think those who like what they get under T5 will absolutely love their results from COB LED.
> 
> ...


My first runs were a mexi brick bag seed pheno I cloned and ran under a grip of t12's. Fluffy and airy buds but did they pack a punch. Far better then the sack they came from just a bitch to dry and cure and one hell of a learning curve. I would bend the clones over and have the branches grow up into the lights. I often think back to those simple set ups and how much fun the thrill of initial success was...


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 11, 2016)

PerroVerde said:


> My first runs were a mexi brick bag seed pheno I cloned and ran under a grip of t12's. Fluffy and airy buds but did they pack a punch. Far better then the sack they came from just a bitch to dry and cure and one hell of a learning curve. I would bend the clones over and have the branches grow up into the lights. I often think back to those simple set ups and how much fun the thrill of initial success was...


Hell yeah, it's how I got hooked on this gig in the first place.


----------



## Yodaweed (Aug 11, 2016)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I'm only considering the t5 spot to finish during a maybe 2 water fade while the plant doesn't really need the HPS. With the galaxy ballasts and blockbuster hoods I'm getting some foxtailing and leaf bleaching that last week. And I can't lower the plants anymore by then.
> 
> I think the full spectrum and reduced intensity may help quality during that time. While she yellows a little.


What about LEDs ? You ever considered those?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 11, 2016)

Yodaweed said:


> What about LEDs ? You ever considered those?


Yes but am only starting to learn about them. 

Really interested in the 315 cmh.


----------



## Shirley Mitchell (Aug 1, 2017)

greasemonkeymann said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/t/greasemonkeys-compost-pile.893592/


In desperate need of advice... my other half composts , tables scraps, coffee grounds all that stuff , then he puts in grass clippings. Oh ok buddy, now I have more weeds in my flower beds than ever. Please tell me what I add or do


----------



## mauricem00 (Aug 1, 2017)

RM3 said:


> This morning, I read this thread ,,,,
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/
> 
> ...


I'M a T5 growers as well and am interested in this mid day break thing. do you still run a 12 hour dark period? as for more light being better a lot depends on the quality of light your using. with sunlight it only takes 700PPF to cause photo inhibition, fox tailing and other signs of light stress. with HPS or LEDs you can push over 1700ppf before these symptoms show up.40 years ago when I grew my first plant from bag seed HPS street lights and T12 shop lights were the only option available to indoor growers. but technology has evolved a lot since then.now T5hos are the best selling grow lights on the market. even big box stores like Walmart and home depot carry them. no form of light will penetrate the canopy but with some lights like HPS plants stretch and open up providing a strait line of sight to the lower buds. topping and training (scrog) provide the same effect for short bushy plants with an 8 bulb 4 ft T5 in a 2ft by 4ft by 8ft closet I can put my light 2 inches away from my plants without burning them but I see signs of light stress if I place them closer than 9 inches from the plant. I understand quantum theory and other scientific fairy tales but prefer to listen to my plants to find out what they need and we are all still learning. even the most experienced grower still has a lot to learn. and experimenting and listening to our plants is the only way to learn. just too many unknown variables to do it any other way. it has been said that "it take a truly brilliant man to comprehend the depth of his own ignorance"


----------



## RM3 (Aug 1, 2017)

mauricem00 said:


> I'M a T5 growers as well and am interested in this mid day break thing. do you still run a 12 hour dark period? as for more light being better a lot depends on the quality of light your using. with sunlight it only takes 700PPF to cause photo inhibition, fox tailing and other signs of light stress. with HPS or LEDs you can push over 1700ppf before these symptoms show up.40 years ago when I grew my first plant from bag seed HPS street lights and T12 shop lights were the only option available to indoor growers. but technology has evolved a lot since then.now T5hos are the best selling grow lights on the market. even big box stores like Walmart and home depot carry them. no form of light will penetrate the canopy but with some lights like HPS plants stretch and open up providing a strait line of sight to the lower buds. topping and training (scrog) provide the same effect for short bushy plants with an 8 bulb 4 ft T5 in a 2ft by 4ft by 8ft closet I can put my light 2 inches away from my plants without burning them but I see signs of light stress if I place them closer than 9 inches from the plant. I understand quantum theory and other scientific fairy tales but prefer to listen to my plants to find out what they need and we are all still learning. even the most experienced grower still has a lot to learn. and experimenting and listening to our plants is the only way to learn. just too many unknown variables to do it any other way. it has been said that "it take a truly brilliant man to comprehend the depth of his own ignorance"


I've never run a 12 hour anything, tis not natural so I'm not sure what you're askin?

I run 10:30/13:30 for flower and use the Gas Lantern Routine for veg 

I have reduced the afternoon break to 15 min


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 1, 2017)

RM3 said:


> I've never run a 12 hour anything, tis not natural so I'm not sure what you're askin?
> 
> I run 10:30/13:30 for flower and use the Gas Lantern Routine for veg
> 
> I have reduced the afternoon break to 15 min



12/12 is not natural but gas lantern timing is?


----------



## RM3 (Aug 1, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> 12/12 is not natural but gas lantern timing is?


Never said that GLR is merely a tool that's been use for over a century to induce faster flowering

and it kinda rebukes my 12 hour comment as it is also known as 12/1 LOL

good to see you're still trollin


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 1, 2017)

RM3 said:


> Never said that GLR is merely a tool that's been use for over a century to induce faster flowering
> 
> and it kinda rebukes my 12 hour comment as it is also known as 12/1 LOL
> 
> good to see you're still trollin



Only noticing the continuing flaws in your arguments. 

Like the gas lantern technique was used to keep flowers in the vegetative stage. Not bloom faster.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Only noticing the continuing flaws in your arguments.
> 
> Like the gas lantern technique was used to keep flowers in the vegetative stage. Not bloom faster.


And yet plants bloom faster when flipped from a GLR schedule.

Do you even try stuff before you shit talk it like a false prophet?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> And yet plants bloom faster when flipped from a GLR schedule.
> 
> Do you even try stuff before you shit talk it like a false prophet?



With a quick search (all results say the same thing) the 12/1 light cycle is to keep the plant in a vegetative stage. 

The diminishing non 12/12 cycle is to promote flowering. 

You should read the posts of the people you defend before putting your foot in your mouth. You don't need the help. 

http://cannabisni.com/2101/grow-bigger-and-better-saving-30-50-percent-on-your-energy-cost


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> With a quick search (all results say the same thing) the 12/1 light cycle is to keep the plant in a vegetative stage.
> 
> The diminishing non 12/12 cycle is to promote flowering.
> 
> ...


Nodding- so you've never tried it and yet you're telling ME I don't know what I'm talking about.

There's a good reason I don't interact with you.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Nodding- so you've never tried it and yet you're telling ME I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> There's a good reason I don't interact with you.



What are you talking about? It is an old Greenhouse technique. I didn't say anything about it but the timing of 12/1 is to trick the plant into staying in the veg stage. That's what the 1 hour is for. 

The person I commented to (not you) said that 12/1 promotes faster flowering. It may but not while using 12/1 it can't. 

Most of his bro science is interpreted incorrectly. That's why he pays to have his own site to say what he wants without opposition. 

Why comment to me now? I have been making comments back on your posts for days. You don't answer them. 

Seems you want to interact with me pretty badly. At least do it for yourself instead of a poor old rat who still won't admit he did this to himself with false ego and lies.


----------



## Lucky Luke (Aug 1, 2017)

Do the plants grow just as well with the Gas lantern or are they noticeably slower growing?


----------



## RM3 (Aug 1, 2017)

Lucky Luke said:


> Do the plants grow just as well with the Gas lantern or are they noticeably slower growing?


They grow the same


----------



## UncleBuck (Aug 1, 2017)

RM3 said:


> They grow the same


hey, how's it hanging shit for brains?

still growing those gangly twigs in 100 degree temps and pouring boiling water on them?

anyhoo, best of luck to ya!


----------



## Lucky Luke (Aug 1, 2017)

RM3 said:


> They grow the same


excellent. I shall give it a try next grow.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 1, 2017)

Lucky Luke said:


> excellent. I shall give it a try next grow.



The link I put up above for Ttystick has an excellent write up on it. 

The trial showed faster growth with less power and faster blooming with a reducing time schedule in flower.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2017)

Lucky Luke said:


> Do the plants grow just as well with the Gas lantern or are they noticeably slower growing?





RM3 said:


> They grow the same


IME, it's a bit strain dependent. Also you don't want to do it with marginal light intensity; the technique really wants good strong veg lighting to work at its best.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2017)

Lucky Luke said:


> excellent. I shall give it a try next grow.


Another option is 6 hours on and 2 hours off, repeating three times a day. I've found this schedule to work at least as well as 24 hours on.


----------



## BobCajun (Aug 1, 2017)

An interesting thing I read is that a certain amount of light, a "daily light integral" as it's called, applied over 24 hours continuously produces more growth than the same DLI applied for a shorter time and followed by a dark period. So for sheer energy to growth optimization continuous light may be the best route. That's actually what I've been using for the last few months. Cuttings root in 5 days. I can grow the rooted cuttings under 5w LED bulbs, the same ones used for rooting, for a few weeks to get them well established. I just remove the layer of plastic between the light and the growth chamber. The chamber is almost 1 sq ft area. Point being that with continuous light you can get healthy growth from surprisingly little wattage.

One thing about continuous light though, you need to start the flowering phase with 24 hours darkness, otherwise flowering may be delayed a couple days.


----------



## elkamino (Aug 1, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Another option is 6 hours on and 2 hours off, repeating three times a day. I've found this schedule to work at least as well as 24 hours on.


Interesting- do you use this technique?


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 1, 2017)

elkamino said:


> Interesting- do you use this technique?


I'm not using anything right at the moment but I have in the past, as have several friends. Results have been really good without exception.


----------



## BobCajun (Aug 2, 2017)

I did use 6/2 before, and 7/1, 5/3 and 9/3, but since I'm using several small closed chambers now, with just air holes for ventilation, I found that the dark time caused too much condensation on the sides. Cuttings do seem to root faster with continuous light too. Since it's just 5w LED bulbs I'm not worried about the extra power.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 2, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> I did use 6/2 before, and 7/1, 5/3 and 9/3, but since I'm using several small closed chambers now, with just air holes for ventilation, I found that the dark time caused too much condensation on the sides. Cuttings do seem to root faster with continuous light too. Since it's just 5w LED bulbs I'm not worried about the extra power.


You definitely need some airflow.

Also, 5W doesn't deliver enough intensity to make the dark cycles necessary or worthwhile. That's more for high power veg situations.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Aug 2, 2017)

Shirley Mitchell said:


> In desperate need of advice... my other half composts , tables scraps, coffee grounds all that stuff , then he puts in grass clippings. Oh ok buddy, now I have more weeds in my flower beds than ever. Please tell me what I add or do


Compost pile.isn't hot enough. If it gets to proper temp the seeds will be sterile.


----------



## BobCajun (Aug 2, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> You definitely need some airflow.
> 
> Also, 5W doesn't deliver enough intensity to make the dark cycles necessary or worthwhile. That's more for high power veg situations.


I was going for passive air circulation, holes in the bottom of the sides and in the top, heat causing upward air motion. They do okay, just not when there are dark periods.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 2, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> I was going for passive air circulation, holes in the bottom of the sides and in the top, heat causing upward air motion. They do okay, just not when there are dark periods.


That spike in humidity that causes condensation overnight creates an ideal environment for powdery mildew. You might want to rethink your approach.


----------



## BobCajun (Aug 2, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> That spike in humidity that causes condensation overnight creates an ideal environment for powdery mildew. You might want to rethink your approach.


Precisely the reason for the continuous light. The passive ventilation mini chambers are totally working.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 2, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> Precisely the reason for the continuous light. The passive ventilation mini chambers are totally working.


Problem solved, then.


----------



## BobCajun (Aug 2, 2017)

Mini chambers are very handy. You can move them around easily. I mean like one square foot size. Here's the kind I used, cheap dollar store ones, $2.50 each. It's the large ones in this image, 13"x10" top, 9" high. One upside down on the other, mylar lined, hand holes covered with tape. Clipped together with those green horticultural clips also sold in dollar stores. BTW I also use them for grow containers with medium, 4 plants each. What would I do without dollar store bins?


----------



## churchhaze (Aug 3, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> An interesting thing I read is that a certain amount of light, a "daily light integral" as it's called, applied over 24 hours continuously produces more growth than the same DLI applied for a shorter time and followed by a dark period. So for sheer energy to growth optimization continuous light may be the best route. That's actually what I've been using for the last few months. Cuttings root in 5 days. I can grow the rooted cuttings under 5w LED bulbs, the same ones used for rooting, for a few weeks to get them well established. I just remove the layer of plastic between the light and the growth chamber. The chamber is almost 1 sq ft area. Point being that with continuous light you can get healthy growth from surprisingly little wattage.
> 
> One thing about continuous light though, you need to start the flowering phase with 24 hours darkness, otherwise flowering may be delayed a couple days.


I agreed with you until your last sentence. You definitely don't need to start the flowering phase with a 24 hour dark period.


----------



## TheChemist77 (Aug 3, 2017)

does anybody here use the 12 hours on, 5.5 hours off, 1 hour on, 5.5 hours off light sced?? gass lanturn routine...
ive been growing for many years and usually veg 18/6 but i tried 24/0,22/2, 20.4.. i stick to 18/6 for 2 reasons, 1. to save on electric, and 2 because ive found when growing from seed i get a better female to male ratio...
my cloner is in the room w mothers and clones vegging..my question is will the gass lanturn sced keep my plants in a vegitive state and will my clones root the same?? also if growing from seed, will it effect overall health of mother?? im all for saving money on electric but not if it stresses my plants.... i want my plants and clones healthy,,but im afraid to try this light sced w/out being sure its ok for plants... any info appreciated ..


----------



## TheChemist77 (Aug 3, 2017)

my veg used to be 24 hours light on,,plants went straight to 12/12, w/ no 24 hour dark period and they finished just fine,,no delay.. 
my clone mothers grew nice short n stocky and clones rooted a few days faster w/ 24 hours of light.. but now at 18/6 my plants seem just as happy and healthy, that few extra days to root clones is worth the savings on electric imo..


----------



## RM3 (Aug 3, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> does anybody here use the 12 hours on, 5.5 hours off, 1 hour on, 5.5 hours off light sced?? gass lanturn routine...
> ive been growing for many years and usually veg 18/6 but i tried 24/0,22/2, 20.4.. i stick to 18/6 for 2 reasons, 1. to save on electric, and 2 because ive found when growing from seed i get a better female to male ratio...
> my cloner is in the room w mothers and clones vegging..my question is will the gass lanturn sced keep my plants in a vegitive state and will my clones root the same?? also if growing from seed, will it effect overall health of mother?? im all for saving money on electric but not if it stresses my plants.... i want my plants and clones healthy,,but im afraid to try this light sced w/out being sure its ok for plants... any info appreciated ..


I've used GLR for several years now, but don't use it on clones and I don't keep mom's so not sure how it'll affect em


----------



## BobCajun (Aug 3, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> does anybody here use the 12 hours on, 5.5 hours off, 1 hour on, 5.5 hours off light sced?? gass lanturn routine...
> ive been growing for many years and usually veg 18/6 but i tried 24/0,22/2, 20.4.. i stick to 18/6 for 2 reasons, 1. to save on electric, and 2 because ive found when growing from seed i get a better female to male ratio...
> my cloner is in the room w mothers and clones vegging..my question is will the gass lanturn sced keep my plants in a vegitive state and will my clones root the same?? also if growing from seed, will it effect overall health of mother?? im all for saving money on electric but not if it stresses my plants.... i want my plants and clones healthy,,but im afraid to try this light sced w/out being sure its ok for plants... any info appreciated ..


Shorter day length during early growth does increase female ratio. Seeds started in greenhouses in short days of fall/winter produced the most females.

The 24 hours of dark at start of flowering speeds flowering in certain other plants so I figure why not? The worst that came from it was growing tips getting lighter green. Surprising it could happen that fast. Not a serious problem though.


----------



## pineappleman420 (Aug 3, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> does anybody here use the 12 hours on, 5.5 hours off, 1 hour on, 5.5 hours off light sced?? gass lanturn routine...
> ive been growing for many years and usually veg 18/6 but i tried 24/0,22/2, 20.4.. i stick to 18/6 for 2 reasons, 1. to save on electric, and 2 because ive found when growing from seed i get a better female to male ratio...
> my cloner is in the room w mothers and clones vegging..my question is will the gass lanturn sced keep my plants in a vegitive state and will my clones root the same?? also if growing from seed, will it effect overall health of mother?? im all for saving money on electric but not if it stresses my plants.... i want my plants and clones healthy,,but im afraid to try this light sced w/out being sure its ok for plants... any info appreciated ..


My clones do just fine. Have used it for many years with great success


----------



## pineappleman420 (Aug 3, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> Shorter day length during early growth does increase female ratio. Seeds started in greenhouses in short days of fall/winter produced the most females.
> 
> The 24 hours of dark at start of flowering speeds flowering in certain other plants so I figure why not? The worst that came from it was growing tips getting lighter green. Surprising it could happen that fast. Not a serious problem though.


I've read a study on temperature affects on male and female ratios at germination. Have to see if I can find it and post it. In a nut shell a few degrees showed a difference in how the ratio comes out. The warmer environment seemed to have higher male to female ratio. I'll quit trying to remember it and just look for the study...


----------



## BobCajun (Aug 3, 2017)

-


pineappleman420 said:


> I've read a study on temperature affects on male and female ratios at germination. Have to see if I can find it and post it. In a nut shell a few degrees showed a difference in how the ratio comes out. The warmer environment seemed to have higher male to female ratio. I'll quit trying to remember it and just look for the study...


I'll take your word for it. I only grow fems anyway now.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 3, 2017)

pineappleman420 said:


> I've read a study on temperature affects on male and female ratios at germination. Have to see if I can find it and post it. In a nut shell a few degrees showed a difference in how the ratio comes out. The warmer environment seemed to have higher male to female ratio. I'll quit trying to remember it and just look for the study...


pretty sure seeds are genetically imprinted male or female. enviro does nothing to change that.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 3, 2017)

BobCajun said:


> I only grow fems anyway now


me too. don't have the time or space to waste or the plant counts either.


----------



## RM3 (Aug 3, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> pretty sure seeds are genetically imprinted male or female. enviro does nothing to change that.


Totally not true, just as with us humans all babies start out female and deciding to be male happens later


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Aug 3, 2017)

Shirley Mitchell said:


> In desperate need of advice... my other half composts , tables scraps, coffee grounds all that stuff , then he puts in grass clippings. Oh ok buddy, now I have more weeds in my flower beds than ever. Please tell me what I add or do


personally I wouldn't do anything at all, theres plenty of soil in there for all, besides grass tends to attract the correct types of bacterial microbes that cannabis likes.
past that the only option is to induce another thermophilic stage of the compost to "cook" the seeds.
but I wouldn't sweat the grass at all, treat it like a companion crop
in my experience the "usual" sprouts I get are from the tomatoes I throw in the compost, or maybe the seeded bread ends or what not, either way I wouldn't think twice about just leavin them there.
they won't hurt a thing


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 3, 2017)

RM3 said:


> Totally not true, just as with us humans all babies start out female and deciding to be male happens later


This is not correct. 

The chromosomes are present at conception. The male/female parts just don't develop right away.


----------



## dopeonarope (Aug 3, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> This is not correct.
> 
> The chromosomes are present at conception. The male/female parts just don't develop right away.


Ding, ding, ding! we have a winner


----------



## churchhaze (Aug 4, 2017)

In china, they can have only one child. Use warm water to make sure they're all males.


----------



## RM3 (Aug 4, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> This is not correct.
> 
> The chromosomes are present at conception. The male/female parts just don't develop right away.


You really are a stupid bitch 

"Geneticists have discovered that all human embryos start life as females, as do all embryos of mammals."

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4470128


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 4, 2017)

RM3 said:


> You really are a stupid bitch
> 
> "Geneticists have discovered that all human embryos start life as females, as do all embryos of mammals."
> 
> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4470128



That is a 1974 article written by a sex marital therapist. 

There is more info on orgasms in that short article. And no reference to any actual research or even a geneticist. 

I can't believe you even found this outdated needle in the haystack. Try again.


----------



## RM3 (Aug 4, 2017)




----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 4, 2017)

*In Common Language, We Can Say All Mammals Essentially Start as Females, but Technically that Statement isn’t Correct*

*from your article RM*


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 4, 2017)

RM3 said:


>



Says some call it gender neutral right in the beginning and then goes on to explain what I said in the first place to you. 

The chromosomes are present at conception.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Aug 4, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> You definitely need some airflow.
> 
> Also, 5W doesn't deliver enough intensity to make the dark cycles necessary or worthwhile. That's more for high power veg situations.


I've seen benefits of running 6/2 with my t5.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Aug 4, 2017)

I've also noticed environmental effect on the sex of cannabis plants. 

There is literature out there that supports it. 

If environment can make one hermaphrodite then why is it not plausible for it to effect the male female ratio? 

You can argue the difference in true herms and stress ones but at the end of the day environment had something to do with it changing sex.

I won't go as far as the thing about birth control but blue light, cool temps and short days have shown more females for me.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 4, 2017)

whitebb2727 said:


> but blue light, cool temps and short days have shown more females for me.


my argument would be if enviro causes male/female, then in the proper enviro, there should be no males. which is impossible. 

i think you get 10 regular seeds, those 10 are already male or female before germination. 

i'm not sure though. hard to find any evidence just yet either way. 



whitebb2727 said:


> There is literature out there that supports it.


i'd love to read it. gotta link?


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 4, 2017)

whitebb2727 said:


> I've also noticed environmental effect on the sex of cannabis plants.
> 
> There is literature out there that supports it.
> 
> ...


I'm not convinced that environment can make a plant herm -- unless the environment creates stress for the plant.
Right now our weather is in the shitter and my outdoor plants just started to bloom. We haven't had any rain since June so it's super dry. Also super hot -- which is rare. I know, I know, I'm a wuss. Anything over 90 sucks ass. Highs of 75 are expected this time of the year in the Northwest. (It's our tourist season.)

All I can do is keep em hydrated & lower the PPM... 

They are stressing but hopefully won't herm.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 4, 2017)

whitebb2727 said:


> I've seen benefits of running 6/2 with my t5.


I really liked the results, myself.


----------



## whitebb2727 (Aug 4, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> my argument would be if enviro causes male/female, then in the proper enviro, there should be no males. which is impossible.
> 
> i think you get 10 regular seeds, those 10 are already male or female before germination.
> 
> ...





Chunky Stool said:


> I'm not convinced that environment can make a plant herm -- unless the environment creates stress for the plant.
> Right now our weather is in the shitter and my outdoor plants just started to bloom. We haven't had any rain since June so it's super dry. Also super hot -- which is rare. I know, I know, I'm a wuss. Anything over 90 sucks ass. Highs of 75 are expected this time of the year in the Northwest. (It's our tourist season.)
> 
> All I can do is keep em hydrated & lower the PPM...
> ...



Ill dig for it. A lot of the studies and info I had were on a computer that crashed. Give me a day or two and ill find it.


----------



## churchhaze (Aug 4, 2017)

RM3 said:


> You really are a stupid bitch


says the guy who grows with T5 and boils his roots.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 4, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> says the guy who grows with T5 and boils his roots.



Lol. But the bro science behind it all........


----------



## TheChemist77 (Aug 4, 2017)

thanks for the info on the light sced..
i had a feeling the male/female thing would bring problems...
my opinion is that enviroment determins gender as w alligator eggs,, but i could be wrong,, the thing is there is no way to prove the enviromental thing,, plant 100 seeds under the same enviroment a few times every time the ratio will be different,,,however i think more seeds are female than male as 1 male can pollinate a hundred females..over thousands of years i think the plant knows this so on a single plant most seeds would be female...once again it cant be proven either way,,so whatever each of us believe is true to ourselves.. just like if u grow verticle or sog, like gh nutes or advanced, doesnt matter as long as we grow and happy doing it whatever u like is best for u..argue,debate, ive found once a person believes somthing nobody can change their mind...

ive grown both feminized and reg seeds,, havnt had alot of feminized or regulars herm out..the guy in high times sais regular seeds are best for finding mothers...idk if this is true tho,, i think both have advantages and disadvantages,,reg's are better if u want males for breeding, feminized better if u dont want to wait to determin sex,,u pretty much know its female.....grow well and be well to all


----------



## RM3 (Aug 5, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> says the guy who grows with T5 and boils his roots.


And yet I have frosty as fuck plants in my garden at 4 weeks 
.


----------



## taint (Aug 5, 2017)

Jeeeezus..............this hasn't changed in years.
How in the fuck do you still have the time and energy for all this forum nonsense RM?


----------



## RM3 (Aug 5, 2017)

taint said:


> Jeeeezus..............this hasn't changed in years.
> How in the fuck do you still have the time and energy for all this forum nonsense RM?


I have slowed down a bit LOL


----------



## churchhaze (Aug 5, 2017)

RM3 said:


> And yet I have frosty as fuck plants in my garden at 4 weeks
> .
> View attachment 3990447


It looks like weed.


----------



## taint (Aug 5, 2017)

Well good luck and have fun with it.


----------



## churchhaze (Aug 5, 2017)

There's no proof that crappy T5 lights with too much blue will produce any better weed than HPS. T5 is garbage tech, but by all means, please continue to post closeups of light airy buds...


----------



## RM3 (Aug 5, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> There's no proof that crappy T5 lights with too much blue will produce any better weed than HPS. T5 is garbage tech, but by all means, please continue to post closeups of light airy buds...


By all means keep trollin as your clueless post have always entertained


----------



## churchhaze (Aug 5, 2017)

RM3 said:


> By all means keep trollin as your clueless post have always entertained


I'm not trolling. I'm helping noobs make good decisions. Skip fluorescent because it was made obsolete when HPS was invented. Don't listen to the bullshit about HPS growing low quality.


----------



## Psyphish (Aug 5, 2017)

HPS is complete crap and while T5s are inefficient and make fluffy buds, some of the frostiest bud I've grown was under fluorescents. Cannabis plants need UV, even if the light only puts out small amounts, better than none.


----------



## Dr.Nick Riviera (Aug 5, 2017)

Psyphish said:


> *HPS is complete crap *and while T5s are inefficient and make fluffy buds, some of the frostiest bud I've grown was under fluorescents. Cannabis plants need UV, even if the light only puts out small amounts, better than none.


 LOL


----------



## a mongo frog (Aug 5, 2017)

Psyphish said:


> HPS is complete crap


LOL


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 5, 2017)

Psyphish said:


> and while T5s are inefficient and make fluffy buds,


they sound even worse than HPS. not the best salesman for T5's huh?


----------



## TheChemist77 (Aug 5, 2017)

personally ive only used t5's in veg.. that was a long time ago.. i grew with hps and mh for many years and they grow great weed, now im using cdl and led,, my yields are the same w a higher gpw pluss i save on electric..
RM3 knows what he is doing and imo his t5 set up has a better spectrum than any hps/mh/cdl or led,, the multiple bulbs allows for a spectrum much closer to the sun...i dont know if his yields would be higher w hps,cdl,led,, but the quality of buds w/ t5 has got to be much better...
if u like hps,,great for u,, to each his own.. so long as u grow and enjoy doing it..whatever u like is best for you and you alone..there is no way to prove one light is better than the other,,yes intensity,par,lumens, can be measured but everyone would use the same thing if there was undeniable proof that this light out performs any other...i dont try to persuade people to change there lighting,nutrients,etc,, we like what we like, and if it makes us happy,,that is all u can ask for..grow well n be well


----------



## Dr.Nick Riviera (Aug 5, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> personally ive only used t5's in veg.. that was a long time ago.. i grew with hps and mh for many years and they grow great weed, now im using cdl and led,, my yields are the same w a higher gpw pluss i save on electric..
> RM3 knows what he is doing and imo his t5 set up has a better spectrum than any hps/mh/cdl or led,, the multiple bulbs allows for a spectrum much closer to the sun...i dont know if his yields would be higher w hps,cdl,led,, but the quality of buds w/ t5 has got to be much better...
> if u like hps,,great for u,, to each his own.. so long as u grow and enjoy doing it..whatever u like is best for you and you alone..there is no way to prove one light is better than the other,,yes intensity,par,lumens, can be measured but everyone would use the same thing if there was undeniable proof that this light out performs any other...i dont try to persuade people to change there lighting,nutrients,etc,, we like what we like, and if it makes us happy,,that is all u can ask for..grow well n be well


 but you don't understand,MY light choice grows magical unicorn farts while making your electric bill go backwards.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 5, 2017)

Dr.Nick Riviera said:


> but you don't understand,MY light choice grows magical unicorn farts while making your electric bill go backwards.


i don't even need light to grow my weed. got ya beat!


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 5, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> personally ive only used t5's in veg.. that was a long time ago.. i grew with hps and mh for many years and they grow great weed, now im using cdl and led,, my yields are the same w a higher gpw pluss i save on electric..
> RM3 knows what he is doing and imo his t5 set up has a better spectrum than any hps/mh/cdl or led,, the multiple bulbs allows for a spectrum much closer to the sun...i dont know if his yields would be higher w hps,cdl,led,, but the quality of buds w/ t5 has got to be much better...
> if u like hps,,great for u,, to each his own.. so long as u grow and enjoy doing it..whatever u like is best for you and you alone..there is no way to prove one light is better than the other,,yes intensity,par,lumens, can be measured but everyone would use the same thing if there was undeniable proof that this light out performs any other...i dont try to persuade people to change there lighting,nutrients,etc,, we like what we like, and if it makes us happy,,that is all u can ask for..grow well n be well


You say "to each his own", but the implication is that other methods are inferior to yours (or RM3s). 
If you actually practiced what you preach, you wouldn't have opened your pie hole.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 5, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> personally ive only used t5's in veg.. that was a long time ago.. i grew with hps and mh for many years and they grow great weed, now im using cdl and led,, my yields are the same w a higher gpw pluss i save on electric..
> RM3 knows what he is doing and imo his t5 set up has a better spectrum than any hps/mh/cdl or led,, the multiple bulbs allows for a spectrum much closer to the sun...i dont know if his yields would be higher w hps,cdl,led,, but the quality of buds w/ t5 has got to be much better...
> if u like hps,,great for u,, to each his own.. so long as u grow and enjoy doing it..whatever u like is best for you and you alone..there is no way to prove one light is better than the other,,yes intensity,par,lumens, can be measured but everyone would use the same thing if there was undeniable proof that this light out performs any other...i dont try to persuade people to change there lighting,nutrients,etc,, we like what we like, and if it makes us happy,,that is all u can ask for..grow well n be well



No he doesn't know what he is doing. He makes up the "science" he uses to justify his hobby and tells it like he is an authority.

Here is a fact about plants and light. 

They transfer their photosynthesis to the strongest wavelength available. 

That is why HPS causes fastest growth. It is the strongest light regardless of the narrower spectrum. 

I have been testing cmh, mh and hps lamps all year. Recently I have removed all of the full spectrum lighting and have gone back to just my original hps bulbs to see if there was really any difference. 

First two plants seem as frosty and potent as before and the density and yield is back where too much mh and cmh made fluffier buds and less yield. 

I was sure full spectrum had improved things noticeably. It is starting to seem much more subtle now. 

I may have just improved at growing and the lights make very little difference. 

As far as what anyone else wants to do. Who cares. Do what you want. But don't come on here like an authority with bullshit and try to sell it to us.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 5, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> i don't even need light to grow my weed. got ya beat!


Not even sunlight?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 5, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Not even sunlight?



We need someone to breed the "Nightweed". 

Grows in the dark. 

That will end the light arguing. 

But it may bring back the light leak threads. Lol.


----------



## Dr.Nick Riviera (Aug 5, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> We need someone to breed the "Nightweed".
> 
> Grows in the dark.
> 
> ...


MY dark cycle is darker than yours,lol


----------



## Psyphish (Aug 5, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> they sound even worse than HPS. not the best salesman for T5's huh?


I use 315w CMHs.. well used.. I'm on probation now.

Everyone around here uses HPS, I don't smoke their shitty weed.


----------



## dangledo (Aug 5, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> No he doesn't know what he is doing. He makes up the "science" he uses to justify his hobby and tells it like he is an authority.
> 
> Here is a fact about plants and light.
> 
> ...



So you're growing from clones then, right?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 5, 2017)

Psyphish said:


> I use 315w CMHs.. well used.. I'm on probation now.
> 
> Everyone around here uses HPS, I don't smoke their shitty weed.


The grower is responsible for the shitty weed. Not the lamp. 

Or the brand of potting mix or the brand of nutes
or the........


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 5, 2017)

dangledo said:


> So you're growing from clones then, right?


I grow from seed primarily but took clones of 2 known phenos from 2 different strains for testing.


----------



## pop22 (Aug 5, 2017)

Read Greg Green's The Cannabis Breeder's Bible, he explains it well. Yes environment can influence sexing in Cannabis in living plants. It only happens as far as I know, in plants born female. 



rkymtnman said:


> my argument would be if enviro causes male/female, then in the proper enviro, there should be no males. which is impossible.
> 
> i think you get 10 regular seeds, those 10 are already male or female before germination.
> 
> ...


----------



## Psyphish (Aug 6, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> The grower is responsible for the shitty weed. Not the lamp.
> 
> Or the brand of potting mix or the brand of nutes
> or the........


HPS never produces the same quality as better light sources. It's ancient technology with limited spectrum and only works because of brute force. It's only relevant in commercial grows where yield is the only thing that matters... and it's cheaper.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

Psyphish said:


> HPS never produces the same quality as better light sources. It's ancient technology with limited spectrum and only works because of brute force. It's only relevant in commercial grows where yield is the only thing that matters... and it's cheaper.



Yes you have made your opinion clear. But the difference is subtle and I am testing how subtle now. 

I use Hortilux Super Hps for the extra blue in the spectrum. And I realize for best growth I would want to add a bit more Blue and some uv. 

I was supplementing with a Phillips 315 and a Hortilux blue mh. 

But too much blue light hurt quality too. We are growing buds. And red light helps buds develop more. 

I am pretty sure that 2 to 1 hps to mh or cmh will be best for overall bud quality. 

I will test a full run in a 3x3 with the 315 3100k bulb too in time.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 6, 2017)

pop22 said:


> ead Greg Green's The Cannabis Breeder's Bible, he explains it well. Yes environment can influence sexing in Cannabis in living plants. It only happens as far as I know, in plants born female.


since i don't have a copy, does he say that enviro causes male or female. or is the seed male or female to begin with? and enviro "can" change that after the fact?


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 6, 2017)

Psyphish said:


> HPS *never* produces the same quality as better light sources. It's ancient technology with limited spectrum and *only* works because of brute force. It's *only* relevant in commercial grows where yield is the *only* thing that matters... and it's cheaper.


I usually ignore posts that contain a lot of absolutes like "never" and "only".


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 6, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Yes you have made your opinion clear. But the difference is subtle and I am testing how subtle now.
> 
> I use Hortilux Super Hps for the extra blue in the spectrum. And I realize for best growth I would want to add a bit more Blue and some uv.
> 
> ...


I ran a sativa with a 1 to 2 HPS to MH and it foxtailed like a bitch. (1 600w HPS & 2 400w MH). 
Frosty has hell though...


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 6, 2017)

Psyphish said:


> HPS never produces the same quality as better light sources. It's ancient technology with limited spectrum and only works because of brute force. It's only relevant in commercial grows where yield is the only thing that matters... and it's cheaper.


It's not even really cheaper; it's both less efficient and it has to be replaced every 6 months.

The only time quality LED lighting is more expensive is up front; after that the savings just keep coming.


----------



## TheChemist77 (Aug 6, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Yes you have made your opinion clear. But the difference is subtle and I am testing how subtle now.
> 
> I use Hortilux Super Hps for the extra blue in the spectrum. And I realize for best growth I would want to add a bit more Blue and some uv.
> 
> ...


i agree the 2 to 1 hps to mh grows high quality...
i never said i was an authority,, i learn from listening and reading from better growers than me..i would never claim to know what is best for anyone other than whats best for me...20 years and still learning


----------



## Yodaweed (Aug 6, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> i agree the 2 to 1 hps to mh grows high quality...
> i never said i was an authority,, i learn from listening and reading from better growers than me..i would never claim to know what is best for anyone other than whats best for me...20 years and still learning


I run 2 hps 1 CMH between them, it works well.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> I ran a sativa with a 1 to 2 HPS to MH and it foxtailed like a bitch. (1 600w HPS & 2 400w MH).
> Frosty has hell though...


That happened to one of mine under the new 315 LEC. But the breeder said it was just a phenotype.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

Yodaweed said:


> I run 2 hps 1 CMH between them, it works well.



This is how I plant to set up a 4x8 area next. 2 600 super hps with the LEC 315 in center.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> It's not even really cheaper; it's both less efficient and it has to be replaced every 6 months.
> 
> The only time quality LED lighting is more expensive is up front; after that the savings just keep coming.



Unless you grow in a cold climate and rely on the bulbs for heat. 

I would have to run a heater with my lighting. almost 6 months every year. 

The bulbs save me over 500 gallons of propane every winter. 

And quality bulbs last closer to a year so your math is exaggerated like a salesman.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> i agree the 2 to 1 hps to mh grows high quality...
> i never said i was an authority,, i learn from listening and reading from better growers than me..i would never claim to know what is best for anyone other than whats best for me...20 years and still learning



That comment was for psyphish.


----------



## RM3 (Aug 6, 2017)

Well, all said and done this is a thread about light that I started to share some of my findings over the years. There are obviously folks that disagree and there are trolls that inject nonsense to disrupt, (much like our current prez) But for new growers reading this, and I do hope that you read the whole thread as there are some good discussion points, the one thing I have never done is to tell folks to switch to T5's. I chose them so I could experiment with different spectrums and I have shared things I learned as a result. This is an ongoing experiment that I have been doing longer than MMG has been growing. He only trolls my threads because he dislikes me and that is his right, but you as new growers should take his post with a grain of salt as I have also been doing my experiments with sulfates longer than he has been growing and if you take the time to look on this very forum you can actually see trends that occur after I have shared results from experiments. Ok, there will be trolls that jump on that and ask me to show where, I'm not gonna give it to em, I hate feedin trolls LOL but if you look you'll see I'm sharing a truth 

Also, if you look, you'll see I have never slammed HPS and have even recommended them to some growers. Also true is I have said that I myself would never use em but I have advised others should. In fact there is a commercial grow in Oregon that has their light system designed by me that is an HID set up with added T5's usin both HPS & MH HID lights that is totally kickin ass. They had a guy come in with a nice light meter that said it was the best indoor light spectrum he had ever tested at a commercial grow. The trolls will yell foul but I can have the owner come post to verify if needed 

And they like to yell that I advise too much blue yet my results have been duplicated and quantified. There is a grower that totally duplicated my tanning booth setup and bought the bulbs I feel are the best, he was using HPS prior and he is a grower that ONLY harvest live resin, he does not save flowers nor does he smoke em. He does the squishy squish with a 20 ton press and has proclaimed a 20 to 30 percent increase in yield since changing to T5's NOTE: this is an increase in trics and resin, not bud, which if you follow and read my post is what I have said all along, I grow trics, not buds !!! It is after all the trics that hold the magic we all seek  

Now that said, I'm still not tellin you new growers to go out and switch to T5's but admit there are a lot of growers that follow me that have. Some go all T5 as I have and some simply add them to other lights they already have. ALL of them have stated that their herb got better as a result. I've been posting here since 09 (several accounts as I've been banned a few times) and I know Rollie, in fact I have pm's from him where he responds with laughter at some of the debates that happen. 

So my point over all to you new growers reading this is that I have been posting here longer than MMG has been growing and my post include pics, and actually pretty good pics that pretty much back up things I share. On the other hand Church is just a pissy old dude set in his ways that loves his cheap ass HPS lights and is satisfied with his herb.

Growing this plant is a lot like religion and politics, there are a lot of opinions and disagreements everywhere. About lights, about defoliation, about flushing, about nutes, etc etc etc and there always will be and as a new growers it is up to you to decide the path to follow for your own needs, in the end it is all that matters. Know that all the constant debates that occur are simply good for website traffic and don't belong in our gardens  

Another very important thing to always keep in mind is that different people have different reactions to various strains, it can be affected by several things and we don't all like the same things, be a sad world if we all drove only red cars LOL Some prefer a good stoned Indica couchlock, Some, like myself, prefer a good Sativa head high, some do both and call it day and night smoke. Some prefer lemon, some prefer pine, the list are practically endless. It is up to each of us as growers both old and new to find that strain that is the one, much like finding a mate. In my case I decided to find it by breeding it myself and I have done that, it took 9 years but I found it and you can too


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 6, 2017)

RM3 said:


> Well, all said and done this is a thread about light that I started to share some of my findings over the years. There are obviously folks that disagree and there are trolls that inject nonsense to disrupt, (much like our current prez) But for new growers reading this, and I do hope that you read the whole thread as there are some good discussion points, the one thing I have never done is to tell folks to switch to T5's. I chose them so I could experiment with different spectrums and I have shared things I learned as a result. This is an ongoing experiment that I have been doing longer than MMG has been growing. He only trolls my threads because he dislikes me and that is his right, but you as new growers should take his post with a grain of salt as I have also been doing my experiments with sulfates longer than he has been growing and if you take the time to look on this very forum you can actually see trends that occur after I have shared results from experiments. Ok, there will be trolls that jump on that and ask me to show where, I'm not gonna give it to em, I hate feedin trolls LOL but if you look you'll see I'm sharing a truth
> 
> Also, if you look, you'll see I have never slammed HPS and have even recommended them to some growers. Also true is I have said that I myself would never use em but I have advised others should. In fact there is a commercial grow in Oregon that has their light system designed by me that is an HID set up with added T5's usin both HPS & MH HID lights that is totally kickin ass. They had a guy come in with a nice light meter that said it was the best indoor light spectrum he had ever tested at a commercial grow. The trolls will yell foul but I can have the owner come post to verify if needed
> 
> ...


 Preach, brother Riddle!

I've been there and seen his grow. It works, imagine that! Is it the biggest? No. The most efficient? No. Yield the most per square foot, per watt, per gram of nutes? No.

But even when I had a tolerance most people only dream of (or have nightmares about lol), his was the only weed that could knock me out stone cold on his couch!

You know you're doing something new when you attract a bunch of haters. They fear the challenge to their preconceptions because they don't want to question anything in their little world. But without us, progress wouldn't happen.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 6, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Unless you grow in a cold climate and rely on the bulbs for heat.
> 
> I would have to run a heater with my lighting. almost 6 months every year.
> 
> ...


I can relate. My garage setup can vent inside our outside, depending on ambient temps.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

rkymtnman said:


> since i don't have a copy, does he say that enviro causes male or female. or is the seed male or female to begin with? and enviro "can" change that after the fact?


Here is all of the popular Grow books. 

http://catnews.org/FREE Pot Books/

Thanks to @chemphlegm 

All the old ones say the environment had an impact. Hot and humid. Males basically. There is more tips. 

But from any research I do. The sex is pre determined by the chromosomes already present. 

As the plant matures hormones are released that grow the sex parts. Not determine them. 

Humans work this way too.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

RM3 said:


> Well, all said and done this is a thread about light that I started to share some of my findings over the years. There are obviously folks that disagree and there are trolls that inject nonsense to disrupt, (much like our current prez) But for new growers reading this, and I do hope that you read the whole thread as there are some good discussion points, the one thing I have never done is to tell folks to switch to T5's. I chose them so I could experiment with different spectrums and I have shared things I learned as a result. This is an ongoing experiment that I have been doing longer than MMG has been growing. He only trolls my threads because he dislikes me and that is his right, but you as new growers should take his post with a grain of salt as I have also been doing my experiments with sulfates longer than he has been growing and if you take the time to look on this very forum you can actually see trends that occur after I have shared results from experiments. Ok, there will be trolls that jump on that and ask me to show where, I'm not gonna give it to em, I hate feedin trolls LOL but if you look you'll see I'm sharing a truth
> 
> Also, if you look, you'll see I have never slammed HPS and have even recommended them to some growers. Also true is I have said that I myself would never use em but I have advised others should. In fact there is a commercial grow in Oregon that has their light system designed by me that is an HID set up with added T5's usin both HPS & MH HID lights that is totally kickin ass. They had a guy come in with a nice light meter that said it was the best indoor light spectrum he had ever tested at a commercial grow. The trolls will yell foul but I can have the owner come post to verify if needed
> 
> ...



No I have been correcting your silly mis-information and myth since I joined here last year and with real science that I studied to completion. Not cherry picking articles that actually prove you are wrong if you actually read the whole thing. And I mean even your own links like recently in this thread about chromosomes. 

You are the idiot that invited me in. Liked the site fine until you started asking us for donations for your shitty Chinese lamp. 

You won't admit you are wrong no matter what. And you have an agenda to sell seeds and lights and fill your own community with noobs that believe and support your "mission". 

No successful grower would listen to any of the crap you make up. 

I am still pretty new at this. I wanted to see if you had something to offer. But it was all bullshit. And your photos of your own Grows proving your theories are full of burned and deficient plants.

That is why you post so few pics here. 

And the best plants on your site are not grown at all the way you say. And the growers don't agree with you. They just have friends there and don't want to upset you. 


I only share my own observations and info I have read from much smarter (and published) scientists and growers than you. 

But it is nice to know you are always thinking about me. 

What I do to you because you are a rat that publically altered and shared my private messages to you to try to regain your own bruised ego has already happened. 

Your false credibility with the noobs is in question now. 

You will slowly fade away. 

And every day while I was on your site you and your supporters put RIU down. Insulted it harshly. And make threads there to talk about us. 

Why are you even here if you hate us so much? 

Hippocrite

and you wrote in my Grow journal on your site that I could not grow good weed with hps or ocean forest. 

You just said you do not say that. But you always say it. Until your agenda makes you say different. 

And sulfer has nothing to do with trichome growth. It may help with terpenes but they have not determined for sure yet. 



Make some more shit up for us. I do find it entertaining.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Preach, brother Riddle!
> 
> I've been there and seen his grow. It works, imagine that! Is it the biggest? No. The most efficient? No. Yield the most per square foot, per watt, per gram of nutes? No.
> 
> ...



Rm3 insists his weed would never lock you to the couch. 

It barely gave my heavy smoking Colorado friend a buzz. 

Maybe you are much lighter weight smoker than you are saying. Or just a liar with an agenda.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> I can relate. My garage setup can vent inside our outside, depending on ambient temps.


I have a fitting in my chimney vent in the basement that has flow dampeners to close the vents when not in use. 

I just quick disconnect the duct and point it under my living room floor in winter.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 6, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> No I have been correcting your silly mis-information and myth since I joined here last year and with real science that I studied to completion. Not cherry picking articles that actually prove you are wrong if you actually read the whole thing. And I mean even your own links like recently in this thread about chromosomes.
> 
> You are the idiot that invited me in. Liked the site fine until you started asking us for donations for your shitty Chinese lamp.
> 
> ...


I've gotten tips from both of you that have been very helpful. 

But I can't ignore the fact that RM3 recruits members from RIU for his web site that contains his "book of weed wisdom", or whatever it's called. (A collection of comments to wade through at your leisure.) 
He also sells his "homegrown" seeds. I've heard they are decent.
It feels like he uses RIU to make money -- without paying to be a sponsor.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 6, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Rm3 insists his weed would never lock you to the couch.
> 
> It barely gave my heavy smoking Colorado friend a buzz.
> 
> Maybe you are much lighter weight smoker than you are saying. Or just a liar with an agenda.


What would my agenda be, exactly?

I think you're a liar without an agenda and you're afraid of new ideas.

That's much, much worse.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> What would my agenda be, exactly?
> 
> I think you're a liar without an agenda and you're afraid of new ideas.
> 
> That's much, much worse.


Well last year and for a while you were supposedly testing and selling commercial lighting systems. 

Then since that is only fantasy you decided you were an important weed activist. 

And now that you are just busted (in a legal state) you have mostly just pontificated socialist ideals all over the politics forum. 

I guess you are just feeding your own ego and defending your only friends. 

You are obviously lonely and bitter and want some control desperately but keep making it worse for yourself.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 6, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Well last year and for a while you were supposedly testing and selling commercial lighting systems.
> 
> Then since that is only fantasy you decided you were an important weed activist.
> 
> ...


Lol

Nothing wrong with your imagination!


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 6, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Lol
> 
> Nothing wrong with your imagination!


How could I know any of this if it were not for your posts? It is all here.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> But from any research I do. The sex is pre determined by the chromosomes already present.


that'z wot i lurnt in skool.


----------



## boilingoil (Aug 7, 2017)

I had run-ins with Riddle several years ago with his boiling water technique. Still never poured boiling water on my roots in 45+ years of growing this cultivar. Done a lot of stupid shit back in the 70's and 80's when I first started growing.
@MichiganMedGrower , why all the hate, anger issues ? you seem like a reasonable guy. Learn and move on is my philosophy.


----------



## Tim Fox (Aug 7, 2017)

wow zers


----------



## torontoke (Aug 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> How could I know any of this if it were not for your posts? It is all here.


I have no dog in this fight so this is just my perspective here but I can't ever remember reading a single post of yours that's positive towards another member on here.
So it really begs the question why are you even on here? All you seem to do is go from thread to thread shitting on everyone while claiming you know everything.
I think most folks on here have read it over and over many times u disagree with rm3's methods and that's ok but to follow him around and constantly try to drum up an argument seems childish and self centred.

How anyone else runs their grows and decides what equipment they prefer should be no one else's business. He isn't on here campaigning to convert everyone to his methods I'm sure he couldn't care less about how u or anyone else grow.
Everyone has the right to choose what works best for them including you so why always focus on what others are doing?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 7, 2017)

boilingoil said:


> I had run-ins with Riddle several years ago with his boiling water technique. Still never poured boiling water on my roots in 45+ years of growing this cultivar. Done a lot of stupid shit back in the 70's and 80's when I first started growing.
> @MichiganMedGrower , why all the hate, anger issues ? you seem like a reasonable guy. Learn and move on is my philosophy.



I have my reasons to hate on rm3 and Ttystick. They treated me quite poorly. Ttystick deserves it from my first night ever posting online. Riddler manipulated and did things I don't want to forgive him for. 

It's all here to read although it's not worth the trouble. 

But I am not actually a hater in real life. This is RIU. 

You are right in your wisdom of course.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 7, 2017)

torontoke said:


> I have no dog in this fight so this is just my perspective here but I can't ever remember reading a single post of yours that's positive towards another member on here.
> So it really begs the question why are you even on here? All you seem to do is go from thread to thread shitting on everyone while claiming you know everything.
> I think most folks on here have read it over and over many times u disagree with rm3's methods and that's ok but to follow him around and constantly try to drum up an argument seems childish and self centred.
> 
> ...



I don't give a crap how he does things. I care that he gives false information as fact and doesn't even admit when he is proven wrong. 

And I have a personal beef with how he treated me. 

But you are right. I admit I am stirring the pot to punish him. But also to help new growers learn about gardening and actual science instead of investing in a lot of wasted time and money. 

I don't think your description of me never posting anything positive is correct though. 

I help and contribute often.


----------



## TheChemist77 (Aug 7, 2017)

back to LIGHT,,, isnt fox tailing caused by genetics?? ive had a few that had fox tailing over the years,, i always just plant more seeds.. i actually had one plant fox tail all clones off it too, but it was very potent,not biggest yield but quality smoke for sure...


----------



## torontoke (Aug 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I don't give a crap how he does things. I care that he gives false information as fact and doesn't even admit when he is proven wrong.
> 
> And I have a personal beef with how he treated me.
> 
> ...


I assure you sir i meant no Ill will 
I've seen some of your pics and know that you have much more to offer the community then what we've seen in these negative hate rants.
If you truly want to help other growers perhaps start a thread or journal and show the world how you think it should be done instead of telling everyone in their threads how it shouldn't.
It's tough to take anything positive out of posts that reek of saltiness.

Just my two cents anyway.

Back to light?


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 7, 2017)

TheChemist77 said:


> back to LIGHT,,, isnt fox tailing caused by genetics?? ive had a few that had fox tailing over the years,, i always just plant more seeds.. i actually had one plant fox tail all clones off it too, but it was very potent,not biggest yield but quality smoke for sure...


It comes from heat too. And excessive P in bloom.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I have my reasons to hate on rm3 and Ttystick.
> 
> It's all here to read although it's not worth the trouble.
> 
> But I am not actually a hater in real life. This is RIU.


This kind of rambling, incoherent, self contradictory ranting plus your need to follow us around just to 'punish' us tells me in no uncertain terms that you have far more serious personal, emotional and/or mental problems than a couple of guys on a pot forum.

Grow up, put your big boy pants on and get a life.


----------



## Yodaweed (Aug 7, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> This kind of rambling, incoherent, self contradictory ranting plus your need to follow us around just to 'punish' us tells me in no uncertain terms that you have far more serious personal, emotional and/or mental problems than a couple of guys on a pot forum.
> 
> Grow up, put your big boy pants on and get a life.


Why do you feel the need to poke at him? Just leave him alone obviously he doesn't like you like many others on this site. If you keep poking at him i'm gonna have to report you for trolling.


----------



## Heil Tweetler (Aug 7, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> This kind of rambling, incoherent, self contradictory ranting plus your need to follow us around just to 'punish' us tells me in no uncertain terms that you have far more serious personal, emotional and/or mental problems than a couple of guys on a pot forum.
> 
> Grow up, put your big boy pants on and get a life.


----------



## ttystikk (Aug 7, 2017)

Yodaweed said:


> Why do you feel the need to poke at him? Just leave him alone obviously he doesn't like you like many others on this site. If you keep poking at him i'm gonna have to report you for trolling.


Lol so you're going to poke at me and whine about my response to him trying to call me out by name YET AGAIN when no one even mentioned you?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 7, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> This kind of rambling, incoherent, self contradictory ranting plus your need to follow us around just to 'punish' us tells me in no uncertain terms that you have far more serious personal, emotional and/or mental problems than a couple of guys on a pot forum.
> 
> Grow up, put your big boy pants on and get a life.



Actually it only tells you what I write. You only think you are smarter and more educated than others.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 7, 2017)

Yodaweed said:


> Why do you feel the need to poke at him? Just leave him alone obviously he doesn't like you like many others on this site. If you keep poking at him i'm gonna have to report you for trolling.


Thank you but I am not a fan of reporting or telling on others. 

I'm good. It's just Ttystick.


----------



## BobBitchen (Aug 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Is everyone who doesn't agree with you stupid?


Damn you're tiring....
You may want to ask this question of yourself.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 7, 2017)

BobBitchen said:


> Damn you're tiring....
> You may want to ask this question of yourself.


He defended me. I had not planned to comment again.


----------



## skunkwreck (Aug 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> No I have been correcting your silly mis-information and myth since I joined here last year and with real science that I studied to completion. Not cherry picking articles that actually prove you are wrong if you actually read the whole thing. And I mean even your own links like recently in this thread about chromosomes.
> 
> You are the idiot that invited me in. Liked the site fine until you started asking us for donations for your shitty Chinese lamp.
> 
> ...


I have found that some of RM3's techniques work great or do in my garden anyway....it all coms down to what works for each individual .


----------



## Chunky Stool (Aug 7, 2017)

skunkwreck said:


> I have found that some of RM3's techniques work great or do in my garden anyway....it all coms down to what works for each individual .


Yes indeed! 
Special kitty is your friend... 

(calcined clay)


----------



## skunkwreck (Aug 7, 2017)

Lmao glad that nothing has changed on this site


----------



## RM3 (Aug 7, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> He defended me. I had not planned to comment again.


Funny thing happened this week end, @Dr. Who had a BBQ, and someone that had smoked your buds was there. When asked he gave yours a 7.5 and he gave Dr Who's a 9

now we know why you have refused Dr Who's challenge to meet and compare

Ironic how you like to slam others buds that you have never smoked


----------



## RM3 (Aug 7, 2017)

skunkwreck said:


> Lmao glad that nothing has changed on this site


Nope, if anything it's gotten worse LOL


----------



## Yodaweed (Aug 7, 2017)

RM3 said:


> Funny thing happened this week end, @Dr. Who had a BBQ, and someone that had smoked your buds was there. When asked he gave yours a 7.5 and he gave Dr Who's a 9
> 
> now we know why you have refused Dr Who's challenge to meet and compare
> 
> Ironic how you like to slam others buds that you have never smoked


I'm always open to meet and compare, i'd love to see what you consider high quality.


----------



## genuity (Aug 7, 2017)

RIU is just fine..... just use the ignorant app,not only will it filter out the Ignorant post/posters,it will make the MODS job,so much easier....


----------



## skunkwreck (Aug 7, 2017)

genuity said:


> RIU is just fine..... just use the ignorant app,not only will it filter out the Ignorant post/posters,it will make the MODS job,so much easier....


I need that app in real life lol


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 7, 2017)

RM3 said:


> Funny thing happened this week end, @Dr. Who had a BBQ, and someone that had smoked your buds was there. When asked he gave yours a 7.5 and he gave Dr Who's a 9
> 
> now we know why you have refused Dr Who's challenge to meet and compare
> 
> Ironic how you like to slam others buds that you have never smoked



The only person you know who smoked my buds reported them as great right on your site. 

I have made no claims. All the claims are from you and them. 

The only buds I said sucked were your strains grown by the grower that you are talking about. 

And I have to wonder how many at the BBQ are at risk for meeting him.


----------



## churchhaze (Aug 7, 2017)

In conclusion, fluorescent lamps suck and HPS is the best bang for your buck.


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 8, 2017)

RM3 said:


> Funny thing happened this week end, @Dr. Who had a BBQ, and someone that had smoked your buds was there. When asked he gave yours a 7.5 and he gave Dr Who's a 9
> 
> now we know why you have refused Dr Who's challenge to meet and compare
> 
> Ironic how you like to slam others buds that you have never smoked


Hey!

I got a 10 for the #4 and the Blue Goo.....

 

Was a be - u - tee - ful time. 

Jus fun'in.....gotta have some pos to go with all the neg around here!


----------



## skunkwreck (Aug 8, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> In conclusion, fluorescent lamps suck and HPS is the best bang for your buck.


For yield it is not so much for quality IMHO


----------



## crowsange (Aug 17, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I don't give a crap how he does things. I care that he gives false information as fact and doesn't even admit when he is proven wrong.
> 
> And I have a personal beef with how he treated me.
> 
> ...


I've been a member here since 2013 but generally just lurking and researching as I'm active on another forum. This is the first time I've felt compelled to post over here.

How about you fuck off and stop contaminating the thread so that those of us that are here to learn can do so without having to wade through your bullshit!

We're all adults here, capable of reading and discerning for ourselves what might be of benefit or not.

 I definitely need a big joint, you've got me all worked up. And not in a good way.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (Aug 17, 2017)

crowsange said:


> I've been a member here since 2013 but generally just lurking and researching as I'm active on another forum. This is the first time I've felt compelled to post over here.
> 
> How about you fuck off and stop contaminating the thread so that those of us that are here to learn can do so without having to wade through your bullshit!
> 
> ...



Believe what you want and read what you want. But this is a public forum. Everyone is welcome to post. Even you. 

If you are all worked up. You did it to yourself. These are past posts.

And it sure isn't just me arguing with the supposed experienced experts. Every thread here is always like that. Most people who are mad at me invested in mythical crap and are not happy. 

And I have posted University results showing the real science all year. Sure you want to learn?

I sure made more friends here than enemies discrediting what is blatantly not true.

The truth is out there. Just not so much in here. Well if you wade through the muck.


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## SonsOfAvery (Aug 19, 2017)

Man for people that are around weed so much there's a lot of angry dudes!
I started reading this thread and learning a few things, 77 pages though so I skipped to the end to look for up to date information, and all I see is people bitchin. 
Makes me sad, it's a shame really.
Surely we're all just here to get the best info, and help eachother out.
Peace and love guys...peace and love.


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## Bestg4202 (May 12, 2018)

Hey all I'm in dire need of some help understanding a light im wanting to buy. Looking for someone that knows there stuff regarding cob setups. Ive been wanting to run a cob setup for a long time and I finally found a great deal on one but I don't understand why its so different from most others ive seen. It's running 54 Cree CXB3590's and a meanwelll driver (doesn't say which one) but is only 360w? That seems wierd to me that there's so many chips for just 360 watts. There's not much info about the lights specifics so that's all I know. It's plug and play setup and I'd be super stoked to have it if it's actually going to be functional. What I'm wanting to know is there a difference in performance depending on how hard you push each cob? And does that setup even make sense. And if this is legit would I be able to add another driver and push the cobs a little more to increase the wattage? Cuz it seems like a phenomenal deal for so many cxb's. There's only a couple available at the low price so any help would be greatly appreciated so I can decide before they're gone. If you don't know how to help maybe you know someone on rui thats into cobs and would be willing to take a min to help out a fellow grower. I REALLY WANT THIS TO BE LEGIT but I'm worried it's too good to be true.


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## RM3 (May 13, 2018)

Bestg4202 said:


> Hey all I'm in dire need of some help understanding a light im wanting to buy. Looking for someone that knows there stuff regarding cob setups. Ive been wanting to run a cob setup for a long time and I finally found a great deal on one but I don't understand why its so different from most others ive seen. It's running 54 Cree CXB3590's and a meanwelll driver (doesn't say which one) but is only 360w? That seems wierd to me that there's so many chips for just 360 watts. There's not much info about the lights specifics so that's all I know. It's plug and play setup and I'd be super stoked to have it if it's actually going to be functional. What I'm wanting to know is there a difference in performance depending on how hard you push each cob? And does that setup even make sense. And if this is legit would I be able to add another driver and push the cobs a little more to increase the wattage? Cuz it seems like a phenomenal deal for so many cxb's. There's only a couple available at the low price so any help would be greatly appreciated so I can decide before they're gone. If you don't know how to help maybe you know someone on rui thats into cobs and would be willing to take a min to help out a fellow grower. I REALLY WANT THIS TO BE LEGIT but I'm worried it's too good to be true.


Most growers that i know have/are shifting away from cobs

could be why there is a deal?


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## Bestg4202 (May 13, 2018)

RM3 said:


> Most growers that i know have/are shifting away from cobs
> 
> could be why there is a deal?


Really? Do you know why by any chance? Because cobs are amazing lights from everything I've seen. I can't think of any downside at all actually...I personally wish they were a little cheaper but they are by no means expensive for what you get. I just don't have a lot of spare monies. Lol.


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## Bestg4202 (May 13, 2018)

Btw everyone can disregard my previous question about the grow light for sale...I figured out that the light in question is most likely fake. It's called raptor led and it's currently on sale for 350 on ebay. And since it would cost over $1k for the chips alone I don't believe it uses real cree cobs. When I asked the co what chips they're using they replied cxb3590's but when I asked for proof of any kind they said they don't do that. In fact he said they wouldn't supply any info on specific components and wouldn't even tell me what size/model meanwell driver it has. That combines with other red flags tells me it's very unlikely legit. It probably works but is almost certainly no better than a regular old blurple light.


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## whitebb2727 (May 13, 2018)

Bestg4202 said:


> Btw everyone can disregard my previous question about the grow light for sale...I figured out that the light in question is most likely fake. It's called raptor led and it's currently on sale for 350 on ebay. And since it would cost over $1k for the chips alone I don't believe it uses real cree cobs. When I asked the co what chips they're using they replied cxb3590's but when I asked for proof of any kind they said they don't do that. In fact he said they wouldn't supply any info on specific components and wouldn't even tell me what size/model meanwell driver it has. That combines with other red flags tells me it's very unlikely legit. It probably works but is almost certainly no better than a regular old blurple light.


I would go diy if going cob.


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## Bestg4202 (May 13, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> I would go diy if going cob.


Ya I that def seems the best route. And I like the idea of being able to customize it to exactly how I want it. But if that deal had been real???!! Holy plants that'd be amazing. 54 cxb's for 350 bucks!!? Haha. Could built a whole sh**ton of lights with those. Lol


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## whitebb2727 (May 13, 2018)

Bestg4202 said:


> Ya I that def seems the best route. And I like the idea of being able to customize it to exactly how I want it. But if that deal had been real???!! Holy plants that'd be amazing. 54 cxb's for 350 bucks!!? Haha. Could built a whole sh**ton of lights with those. Lol


That light probably used Cree diodes. 54 cobs is a lot. Unless it's the little cobs.


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## Bestg4202 (May 13, 2018)

whitebb2727 said:


> That light probably used Cree diodes. 54 cobs is a lot. Unless it's the little cobs.


Ya it's has some version of a cob...I'm assuming it could even be a knockoff cree cxb...but who knows. That's why I'm not wasting money on it because....who knows? Lol. You can check it out tho it looks nice. And 350 is good no matter what but I just wanna make the next light I buy is gonna do the best it can do. Tired if wondering what woulda been...you know what I mean?


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## whitebb2727 (May 13, 2018)

Bestg4202 said:


> Ya it's has some version of a cob...I'm assuming it could even be a knockoff cree cxb...but who knows. That's why I'm not wasting money on it because....who knows? Lol. You can check it out tho it looks nice. And 350 is good no matter what but I just wanna make the next light I buy is gonna do the best it can do. Tired if wondering what woulda been...you know what I mean?


Got a link? I punched in raptor led and it showed truck lights.


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## RM3 (May 13, 2018)

Well I can tell ya that I recently switched to LED and I bought several cheap china lights.

Why because they have the new plastic magnifier lens that china developed

They are sold as 500 watt flood lights, but killawatt says they draw an actual 324 watts

The pics I'll post show a 24 inch and an 18 inch cola under 2 of em at 2 weeks of flower. Plenty of size references in the pic, an 8 inch fan, a gallon milk jug, a washer & dryer and the lid off a paper ream box that is (17x13) 

Here's the light,

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078813LN9/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o02_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Here's the pics,
.
Well crap it won't let me upload the pics?

I'll try again later


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## whitebb2727 (May 13, 2018)

Bestg4202 said:


> Ya it's has some version of a cob...I'm assuming it could even be a knockoff cree cxb...but who knows. That's why I'm not wasting money on it because....who knows? Lol. You can check it out tho it looks nice. And 350 is good no matter what but I just wanna make the next light I buy is gonna do the best it can do. Tired if wondering what woulda been...you know what I mean?


Actually found the makers site. It's 600 bucks full price and says Cree and mea well. It uses small cobs though 

The one on eBay may be a steal.


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## churchhaze (May 13, 2018)

Bestg4202 said:


> Really? Do you know why by any chance? Because cobs are amazing lights from everything I've seen. I can't think of any downside at all actually...I personally wish they were a little cheaper but they are by no means expensive for what you get. I just don't have a lot of spare monies. Lol.


I would highly recommend you ignore the leprechauns advice. It should be obvious why from his posts, particularly his recent upgrade from bad to bad. The guy is totally clueless. Had he humbled himself just a little bit and took advice from more knowledge people, he wouldn't have made that mistake.



RM3 said:


> I recently switched [from T5] to LED and I bought several cheap china lights.


Should have went with HPS.


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## radiant Rudy (May 9, 2019)

RM3 said:


> cheap china lights.
> 
> Why because they have the new plastic magnifier lens


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## budman111 (May 20, 2019)

RM3 said:


> , my plants never stink while growing (unless there is something wrong) so I have never owned a scrubber.


What strains do you go for that doesn't stink, My Lemon Kush is reeking the house out lol


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## RM3 (May 25, 2019)

budman111 said:


> What strains do you go for that doesn't stink, My Lemon Kush is reeking the house out lol


Any and all, it's not the strains it is the conditions of the environment


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## budman111 (May 25, 2019)

I have mine in near perfect conditions and they stink week 7-8 flower


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## SonsOfAvery (May 26, 2019)

budman111 said:


> I have mine in near perfect conditions and they stink week 7-8 flower


My grow area is starting to give of a stink now, less than 3 weeks into flower. Its definitely strain dependent.


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## budman111 (May 26, 2019)

SonsOfAvery said:


> My grow area is starting to give of a stink now, less than 3 weeks into flower. Its definitely strain dependent.


Yeah, he could be growing that grassy 70's shit.


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## ttystikk (May 26, 2019)

budman111 said:


> Yeah, he could be growing that grassy 70's shit.


I've seen his setup and you are way off base here, man.

He runs a solid op with killer results.


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## RM3 (May 27, 2019)

budman111 said:


> I have mine in near perfect conditions and they stink week 7-8 flower


Based on what?

You know, I don't come here to argue, I come here to teach. Bout 80% of what you read in grow forums is nonsense based on myths. I have always taught the truth and in this instance the truth is that the smell is a defense mechanism that happens when something is wrong. Once you realize and accept this you can adjust things accordingly but most don't and rather prefer to accept the fake news spread by the masses. It is what it is

feel free to read my sig links


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## Chunky Stool (May 27, 2019)

RM3 said:


> Based on what?
> 
> You know, I don't come here to argue, I come here to teach. Bout 80% of what you read in grow forums is nonsense based on myths. I have always taught the truth and in this instance the truth is that the smell is a defense mechanism that happens when something is wrong. Once you realize and accept this you can adjust things accordingly but most don't and rather prefer to accept the fake news spread by the masses. It is what it is
> 
> feel free to read my sig links


Some would say frost is also a defense mechanism, so can you have one without the other? 

It has been my experience that bud w/zero smell hasn't been stored properly. Temps usually too high.


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## RM3 (May 27, 2019)

Chunky Stool said:


> Some would say frost is also a defense mechanism, so can you have one without the other?
> 
> It has been my experience that bud w/zero smell hasn't been stored properly. Temps usually too high.


Check my sig links, I have def always brought da frost


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## boilingoil (May 27, 2019)

RM3 said:


> Based on what?
> 
> You know, I don't come here to argue, I come here to teach. Bout 80% of what you read in grow forums is nonsense based on myths. I have always taught the truth and in this instance the truth is that the smell is a defense mechanism that happens when something is wrong. Once you realize and accept this you can adjust things accordingly but most don't and rather prefer to accept the fake news spread by the masses. It is what it is
> 
> feel free to read my sig links


 Terpene release is associated with more than just a defense mechanism.


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## ttystikk (May 27, 2019)

boilingoil said:


> Terpene release is associated with more than just a defense mechanism.


The globules of resin the surfaces of the leaves are transparent to UVB light and focus that light onto the structure at the top of the stalk the resin glob sits on. That structure is what makes the resin- along with the compounds we like growing the plant for. Since that structure makes more resin in the presence of more UVB (the studies I've read looked at but did not see such a correlation with UVA), I'm led to the conclusion that cannabis secretes resin as a defense mechanism against UV light.

Why so much? Well, haven't humans spent the best part of the last ten thousand years selectively breeding cannabis to make more resin?!


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## rkymtnman (May 28, 2019)

RM3 said:


> I have always taught the truth and in this instance the truth is that the smell is a defense mechanism that happens when something is wrong


that could be true in a minority of cases but plants emit a smell to attract pollinators. so when flowers are ripe, they smell more to attract pollinators.


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## RM3 (May 28, 2019)

Folks are gonna believe what they believe, but if you were to properly set up an environment, as I and many others have, you would see for yourselves that I'm right

Like I said it is what it is

I have grown for decades and I have never owned any kind of smell scrubber. I've had around 100 growers visit my home and smelled for themselves @ttystikk is one of em. Hell I've even had cops at my front door investigating an accident that never noticed that there was a garden goin on

The earth is flat, chem trails are infecting us, climate change is a hoax and dank has gotsta be dank 

enjoy


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## rkymtnman (May 28, 2019)

RM3 said:


> Folks are gonna believe what they believe,


it's not that i don't believe you but i believe botany more so. and for the most part, that's why flowers emit an odor is to reproduce which is the goal of even the most basic organism.


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## ttystikk (May 28, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> that could be true in a minority of cases but plants emit a smell to attract pollinators. so when flowers are ripe, they smell more to attract pollinators.


Cannabis is a wind pollinator.


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## rkymtnman (May 28, 2019)

ttystikk said:


> Cannabis is a wind pollinator.


i stand corrected. guess smell wouldn't matter much to the wind, huh? 

i haven't grown as much as RM but i've noticed my plants stop smelling when i have a problem.


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## boilingoil (May 29, 2019)

RM3 said:


> Folks are gonna believe what they believe, but if you were to properly set up an environment, as I and many others have, you would see for yourselves that I'm right
> 
> Like I said it is what it is
> 
> ...


 Do you have peer reviewed articles stating as such from an agricultural stand point or is this more of a Bro Science, like boiling your roots ?
How has that came along ? Is it a recognized practice that been implemented as a whole by any Ag community ?


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## rkymtnman (May 29, 2019)

boilingoil said:


> Do you have peer reviewed articles stating as such from an agricultural stand point or is this more of a Bro Science, like boiling your roots ?
> How has that came along ? Is it a recognized practice that been implemented as a whole by any Ag community ?


@RM3 so what is different about your enviro that causes no smell? or is it just the strains you grow? 

you're in CO and i'm sure you know that alot of commercial grows get in trouble if they do allow smells outside their bldg.


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## RM3 (Jun 1, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> @RM3 so what is different about your enviro that causes no smell? or is it just the strains you grow?
> 
> you're in CO and i'm sure you know that alot of commercial grows get in trouble if they do allow smells outside their bldg.


Full spectrum light
Don't let em touch each other
Allow access to actual barometric pressure (no sealed rooms or tents)
temp & humidity adjusted via heat index

Those are the basics


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

RM3 said:


> Full spectrum light
> Don't let em touch each other
> Allow access to actual barometric pressure (no sealed rooms or tents)
> temp & humidity adjusted via heat index
> ...


could you explain the last one. is that the same as VPD chart?

and when you say full spectrum, you add UV and IR? i only add UV.


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## mr. childs (Jun 3, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> could you explain the last one. is that the same as VPD chart?
> 
> and when you say full spectrum, you add UV and IR? i only add UV.


if you are running cobs have you ever thought of running one of the 660nm t5 tubes like this?

https://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/powerveg-family/powerveg-660/


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

mr. childs said:


> if you are running cobs have you ever thought of running one of the 660nm t5 tubes like this?
> 
> https://eyehortilux.com/grow-lights/powerveg-family/powerveg-660/


right now i'm running 4000K atreum 144 boards. i just added a rapidled far red puck (growmaus) about a week ago. i think adding 660's is my next goal for the Emerson effect. i loved the results with just the 4K boards on my first grow with them. 

what do those power veg cost? any idea? i saw something similar on alibaba that is just red like those but they were dirt cheap, like 8 to 15 bucks depending on length.


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## radiant Rudy (Jun 3, 2019)

RM3 said:


> You know, I don't come here to argue, I come here to teach.


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## oldbeancounter (Jun 3, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> could you explain the last one. is that the same as VPD chart?
> 
> and when you say full spectrum, you add UV and IR? i only add UV.


@rkymtnman
I feel IR is overlooked and that may be a mistake.
Do you use it or have seen anyone use it with any positive effects?


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## mr. childs (Jun 3, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> right now i'm running 4000K atreum 144 boards. i just added a rapidled far red puck (growmaus) about a week ago. i think adding 660's is my next goal for the Emerson effect. i loved the results with just the 4K boards on my first grow with them.
> 
> what do those power veg cost? any idea? i saw something similar on alibaba that is just red like those but they were dirt cheap, like 8 to 15 bucks depending on length.


$25... i'd should have picked up the agromax version but they dont make it in a 2ft version, the 4ft one is $10.

https://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-bloom-t5-bulbs-4-foot/


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

oldbeancounter said:


> @rkymtnman
> I feel IR is overlooked and that may be a mistake.
> Do you use it or have seen anyone use it with any positive effects?


i don't use it and haven't seen anybody that adds it to quantum boards (yet). i think the general consensus is that to run your room hotter to make up for it. but is that really the best solution? not sure.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

mr. childs said:


> $25... i'd should have picked up the agromax version but they dont make it in a 2ft version, the 4ft one is $10.
> 
> https://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-bloom-t5-bulbs-4-foot/


yeah, i need the 2 footer myself. 

when i reviewed my rapidled puck, i mentioned that pucks with 660's vs far red would probably sell a bunch. i'm gonna call them later this week and see if they read my reply/review.


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## RM3 (Jun 3, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> could you explain the last one. is that the same as VPD chart?
> 
> and when you say full spectrum, you add UV and IR? i only add UV.


No VPD

Find a heat index calc online and adjust for 4 points above ambient

IR is not needed, I did several experiments with ir and never saw a benefit


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

RM3 said:


> No VPD
> 
> Find a heat index calc online and adjust for 4 points above ambient


will do. thanks. 

with my low humidity at high elevation, VPD is almost impossible for me to achieve without spending a ton on climate devices. i've gotten by for 10 years with what i've got so why bother was my thought.


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## oldbeancounter (Jun 3, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> i don't use it and haven't seen anybody that adds it to quantum boards (yet). i think the general consensus is that to run your room hotter to make up for it. but is that really the best solution? not sure.


Nor am I , it is interesting though.
Yes warming up room helps but what if you didn't have to, what if you could sit with your plants in a room 72 F with them getting the IR not you ,sure would make indoor gardening a lot more comfortable as I get hot easy lol
I might try it later this year once it cool off won't cost a lot to try on one plant.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

oldbeancounter said:


> Nor am I , it is interesting though.
> Yes warming up room helps but what if you didn't have to, what if you could sit with your plants in a room 72 F with them getting the IR not you ,sure would make indoor gardening a lot more comfortable as I get hot easy lol
> I might try it later this year once it cool off won't cost a lot to try on one plant.


how were you thinking of adding it? one of those infra red bulbs they put in bathroom vents to heat up the area? and i guess there are IR leds too, i think some of those mars and vipars have IR


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## oldbeancounter (Jun 3, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> how were you thinking of adding it? one of those infra red bulbs they put in bathroom vents to heat up the area? and i guess there are IR leds too, i think some of those mars and vipars have IR


Probably semiLED's IR led chips and build my own strip-light whatever it would be called LOL


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## boilingoil (Jun 3, 2019)

mr. childs said:


> $25... i'd should have picked up the agromax version but they dont make it in a 2ft version, the 4ft one is $10.
> 
> https://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-pure-bloom-t5-bulbs-4-foot/


 IR on this setup.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

boilingoil said:


> IR on this setup. View attachment 4344564 View attachment 4344565


awesome! how about the specs on the whole fixture por favor?


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## boilingoil (Jun 3, 2019)

rkymtnman said:


> awesome! how about the specs on the whole fixture por favor?


 9 strips of 3 k LMC561c with 6 strips of added supplement, 6 supplemental diodes on each strip. Diodes consist of 390-400, 410-420, 465-485, 620-630, 650-670, 720-740 and 840-870 nm. Sammy's are powered with a HLG 240H 24B, supplements are powered by 2 APC 35-700 so each driver powers 18 supplements, 36 supplemental total.


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## rkymtnman (Jun 3, 2019)

boilingoil said:


> 9 strips of 3 k LMC561c with 6 strips of added supplement, 6 supplemental diodes on each strip. Diodes consist of 390-400, 410-420, 465-485, 620-630, 650-670, 720-740 and 840-870 nm. Sammy's are powered with a HLG 240H 24B, supplements are powered by 2 APC 35-700 so each driver powers 18 supplements, 36 supplemental total.


cool, very nice work! i'm trying to remember what light you had before but the brain cell isnt' working. was it you that had an Apache at some point? 
and i'm guessing this new light is better than your previous?


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## boilingoil (Jun 4, 2019)

No, my first LED some 6 years ago was an Advanced DM XLM 150. Did okay, but couldn't justify $600 for 150 watts of light.


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## Stoned Cold Bulldog (Sep 18, 2019)

Uncle Ben said:


> I know roots because I have literally planted, raised, and harvested tens of thousands of annuals and perennials for 45 years. I have been experimenting and perfecting root control and development to the nth degree using root tip pruning systems. Here's one such journal that was posted to the old and infamous Overgrow.com forum -
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/
> 
> June RootBuilder expansion of a large blood orange tree. Notice no spin-out and large scaffold roots growing into the native soil at the bottom. This is how you _support_ mother nature:
> ...


i just found it cool that i had printed this stuff out and found it recently cleaning up stuff.

Uncle Ben you were one of the dudes that always had some useful info to share back then on OG. i was stoned cold bulldog hanging out with the Mole and Captain Skunk and many others of the crew growing moles Uranium Cranium. i sure hope i check your profile and you are still around. thanks for all the love showed brother. like i always say fuck them if they can't take a joke and fukc them even more if they can't handle the truth. My nasty habit of truth telling has also upset folks on and off line but most respect it.

I DIDN'T EVEN DEAL WITH THIS SITE OR KNOW ABOUT IT FOR YEARS. i use it mainly to lurk for good information and do strain research. I've already had a taste of the asshats that so often post dribble so i just leave them alone.

last seen here in 2016 too bad for this site imho. i'll check to see if your at the new version of planet ganja since i'm still a member there.


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## RM3 (Sep 19, 2019)

Stoned Cold Bulldog said:


> i just found it cool that i had printed this stuff out and found it recently cleaning up stuff.
> 
> Uncle Ben you were one of the dudes that always had some useful info to share back then on OG. i was stoned cold bulldog hanging out with the Mole and Captain Skunk and many others of the crew growing moles Uranium Cranium. i sure hope i check your profile and you are still around. thanks for all the love showed brother. like i always say fuck them if they can't take a joke and fukc them even more if they can't handle the truth. My nasty habit of truth telling has also upset folks on and off line but most respect it.
> 
> ...


He has retired but is a member of my site and drops in every so often for updates, last one was just a few weeks ago, he is doing well


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## RenaissanceBrah (Mar 11, 2021)

@RM3 Hello RM, I was reading through this thread and wasn't sure if it had been mentioned, but wanted to ask you - in your opinion, how much does the effect of the smoke increase with using higher K lights, like 6500K or 10,000K? 

I'm growing equatorial landrace sativas, and I've heard it said that the effect is better when using higher kelvin lights. 

(I'm growing for pure effect, I don't mind smaller yields, less bag appeal, etc - looking to buy a pair of Kingbrite 6500K LEDs (highest K they offer) and just wanted to ask your opinion).


----------

