# A few thoughts on reducing "the stretch"



## Uncle Ben (Dec 31, 2009)

Just answered a PM on the issue, thought I'd post a ditty here.

The Stretch is aggravating for indoor growers. Outdoor growers could care less unless they're trying to come under a 6' tall privacy fence (been there, done that). Here is a link on some of the nutritional issues that play into plants stretching, and will apply to cannabis too. I buy foods from these people. They are of very high quality and their tech staff are too. It behooves a large greenhouse op that is growing annuals to ship to far away destinations to grow and finish plants that are fairly short, stocky and with strong stems. Too much ammonical N and high P foods contribute to The Stretch according to this source, light and temps aside for now. 

*Plant stretch, what causes it?*

http://www.plantexsolutions.com/index00c0.html?id=607

Notice at the bottom of this chart there is "no effect" on certain species, so, your mileage may vary.

http://www.plantexsolutions.com/index792e.html?id=606

Many years ago, and still today, I recommended Jack Peters' Blossom Booster, 10-30-20 to pot growers. It's like Jack designed it for pot - the N source is 50% nitrate, Mg is greatly increased to maintain chlorophyll (and there's a good amount of iron for the same reason too), good hit of K to help harden off the plant and reinforce the flowering response.

http://www.jacksclassic.com/flowering_plant_care.html

Here's a tech sheet of what makes a great food, unlike many products you read about here which are not regulated and don't publish their contents. This is a guaranteed analysis: http://www.jacksclassic.com/blossom_booster.html

Enjoy,
UB


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## cazador (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks for the info.


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## Cannacopia (Dec 31, 2009)

From what I've (heard) stretch is caused by not flipping the veg/flower cycle fast enough. i.e. 5' indoor white russians in 4' of space! Again from what I've (heard) the next time using humboldt nutes with 8 week schedule the same strain (2 weeks veg) ended at 28" not 5'. The key, shocking the plants with K (potassium) right when the light cycle is changed. Look at humboldt nutes schedule 8 week re-circulating medium strength and you'll see what I am talking about. Again. This is only what I've heard and I have no clue what I am talking about.


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## s.c.mtn.hillbilly (Jan 1, 2010)

as to the aside- lumens are THE main determinant. I was veggin' with a 1000 watt hps; with ridiculous tight internodes...-had to move that light to the grow room. now there's a 400watt mh. they're strechin' now.


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## plaguedog (Jan 2, 2010)

Thats probably not the best of news to people that use seabird guano. I think SBG (12-12-2.5) has 6% ammonical N and like 4% nitrate N. The rest they call "organic N" in most analysis. Not sure what that means. Are organics measured differently? 

I haven't really noticed an issue with more stretch since switching to all organics, could it be that because it's still close to a 50% ratio? I'm also guessing a lot has to do with strain specifics? I need to take a look at the other Mexican bat guano and Indonesian (high P guano) as well.


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## Mr. Homegrown (Jan 2, 2010)

Great read UB thanks!! Just out of curiosity what would you consider the optimum ratio for MJ in veg.? They talk of the 1-3-2 as optimum for flowering to finish, but no talk of veg. Hope this isn't to far off topic.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 2, 2010)

Cannacopia said:


> From what I've (heard) stretch is caused by not flipping the veg/flower cycle fast enough. i.e. 5' indoor white russians in 4' of space! Again from what I've (heard) the next time using humboldt nutes with 8 week schedule the same strain (2 weeks veg) ended at 28" not 5'. The key, shocking the plants with K (potassium) right when the light cycle is changed. Look at humboldt nutes schedule 8 week re-circulating medium strength and you'll see what I am talking about. Again. This is only what I've heard and I have no clue what I am talking about.


Your sorta right in a way, but not quite right overall . If we flower a plant when it has 8 internodes, it will have more stretch than a plant thats flowered at say 5 internodes. More nodes=more *overall *stretch, yet both plants would likely have a 1:1 ratio of stretch if compared to each other.

But if we ignore that, a plant isnt going to stretch "more" just because we decided to veg it longer. We should always expect a similar stretch when we flower regardless of how long we allowed the plant to veg. Hell there are some sativas that never stop growing during flowering, so limiting the veg time really doesn't make any difference. 


UB: The no-stretch solution, do you use that during early flowering? That seems like it would be a great product if it works really well. I can veg my plants longer without worrying about them over-growing my space when I flip the switch. 

Thanks for making this thread. Im glad that PM turned into something we all can learn from. 

Oh and if anyone is curious, it was bout my dads 3-4 inch plant growing to 12-15 inches(I didn't measure) in 9 days after he hit it with 20-20-20. Can you imagine a 15 inch plant with 5 nodes?

Mr. HomeGrown I think I have seen UB suggest 3-1-2 for veg. Its also what Ive seen recommended alot on Gardenwebforum by their own Guru Tapla.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 3, 2010)

plaguedog said:


> Thats probably not the best of news to people that use seabird guano. I think SBG (12-12-2.5) has 6% ammonical N and like 4% nitrate N. The rest they call "organic N" in most analysis. Not sure what that means. Are organics measured differently?


Don't think so. It's the amount of the total. For instance, in a hundred ounces of your guano, it should render 12 ounces of N. Yes, like I said, there are alot of factors to consider regarding the stretch, light and genetics for example.



Mr. Homegrown said:


> Great read UB thanks!! Just out of curiosity what would you consider the optimum ratio for MJ in veg.? They talk of the 1-3-2 as optimum for flowering to finish, but no talk of veg. Hope this isn't to far off topic.


Well, it certainly isn't one in which K is more than N (quite common.) A 30-10-10, 9-3-6, anything that will support good foliage production and retention of leaves.



DaveCoulier said:


> UB: The no-stretch solution, do you use that during early flowering? That seems like it would be a great product if it works really well. I can veg my plants longer without worrying about them over-growing my space when I flip the switch.


Never have tried them, only used that link as an education and for you guys to talk to their techs. I use alot of different products, and I think it's them that manufactures a great encapsulated food, 12 month. I used in on outdoor pot and it worked great. It is something like a 18-7-12 with micros.

later....


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## inval (Jan 3, 2010)

I use CO2 and by cutting it off during the 2 weeks after switching to 12. This has allowed me to completely control the stretch. At the beginning of week 3 I turn it back on and my plants are perfectly sized. This is working remarkably well for me.


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## inval (Jan 3, 2010)

BTW, I am using cutting edge solutions products during the 2 week transition. I use a transition formula that uses 5ml grow, 8 ml micro and 15 ml bloom. I'll add CAL MAG + to this at the rate of 10ml per gallon. I also use Bud Candy as soon as I switch.


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## "SICC" (Jan 3, 2010)

now thread, subscribed, i will be passing this on


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## hardweed (Jan 10, 2010)

Does any one have some advise that does not require chemicals or cO2 to reduce the size of your plant (upwards). Something like fan blowing directly on them. ( for me im talking about the vegging stage )


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 10, 2010)

hardweed said:


> Does any one have some advise that does not require chemicals or cO2 to reduce the size of your plant (upwards). Something like fan blowing directly on them. ( for me im talking about the vegging stage )


Try out least stress training.


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## hardweed (Jan 10, 2010)

what is that? people have told me that if they are going toge t to big basicly just bend he top to face the bottom but i dont really want that


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 10, 2010)

hardweed said:


> what is that? people have told me that if they are going toge t to big basicly just bend he top to face the bottom but i dont really want that


Well if you want to reduce vertical growth as much as possible its your only choice. I you top or fim it reduces your vertical height temporarily, but then it continues.

Use the FAQ in the top right of your page, and learn.


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## hardweed (Jan 10, 2010)

what would happen if i just just the top 20cms off?


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 10, 2010)

hardweed said:


> what would happen if i just just the top 20cms off?


The remaining side branches you have will start to grow out as if they were the main top that you just removed. It will reduce your height, but eventually the lower branches will grow just as tall as the original top. The longer you veg after topping the more time the plant has to regain lost height.


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## DaveCoulier (Feb 9, 2010)

Dug up some more info regarding plant stretch UB.

http://www.onhort.com/What-Really-Causes-Stretch-article2891

Can you recommend some other veg ferts, that lack P, that wont burn a hole in my pocket?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 9, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Dug up some more info regarding plant stretch UB.
> 
> http://www.onhort.com/What-Really-Causes-Stretch-article2891
> 
> Can you recommend some other veg ferts, that lack P, that wont burn a hole in my pocket?


Nice work Holmes!



> When all of these results are put together, i*t is clear that the form of nitrogen did not govern plant size.* *Repeatedly, the differences in plant growth were a consequence of the amount of phosphorus supplied to the plants, not the form of nitrogen.* Going back to the original question, &#8220;Does ammonium-nitrogen really cause plant stretch,&#8221; the answer would have to be no. Differences in plant height among the many fertilizers varying in ammonium-nitrate proportion are controlled by the phosphate &#8212; low phosphate levels result in compact plants, high phosphate levels result in tall plants.
> 
> Thus, if compact plants are your goal, you should limit the amount of phosphorus applied to the plants; conversely, if full plants are your goal, you should apply fertilizers containing the appropriate levels of phosphorus.


Wanna safe bet? 20-20-20 ????????


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## Megalith (Feb 9, 2010)

Hi there UB,
I have seen in some of your other post that you recommend dyna pro for vegatation in hydroponic systems. You seem to like this ratio they use. I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were on other Jacks Classic products? Specifically, the orchid special with the 30-10-10 ratio. Also the all purpose 20-20-20. I'm using a drip system to veg my kids and appreciate the cost of Jacks line of products. I'm a new grower and learner. Appreciate your wisdom.


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## Durbanplaya (Feb 10, 2010)

DaveCoulier you beat me there, found the same link just before this post.

Thanks for the info UB, going to check my nutes and decide if I need a change. Hopefully this will resolve my issues, so far there has been only 2 white widows that haven't stretched


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2010)

Megalith said:


> Hi there UB,
> I have seen in some of your other post that you recommend dyna pro for vegatation in hydroponic systems. You seem to like this ratio they use. I wanted to ask you what your thoughts were on other Jacks Classic products? Specifically, the orchid special with the 30-10-10 ratio. Also the all purpose 20-20-20. I'm using a drip system to veg my kids and appreciate the cost of Jacks line of products. I'm a new grower and learner. Appreciate your wisdom.


You really need to have a water analysis and use a food that works best with its profile. Having said that, since Dyna-Gro is complete, I'd use it for hydro before using Jacks. Jacks is really designed for soil, it contains less minerals by design. Soil should provide for alot of those minerals. 

Durbanplaya, interesting concepts, eh? Bottom line, if you want lush growth, use enough N and plenty of P. If you want compact growth, do the opposite keeping in mind that yields will be determined by the amount of leaf mass.


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## Slab (Feb 10, 2010)

48 hrs of darkness before going into 12/12 is what the Greenhouse guys do with there sativa doms to kick start flowering.


scrog and the stretch go together like dank and everything for me. 

http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/4060.htm curious to hear your thoughts Uncle Ben.


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## Megalith (Feb 10, 2010)

Great. Thanks UB. You said you prefer dyna over jacks for hydro. Is there a brand you like more than dynagro for hydro? How would one go about getting a water analyisis? From the results of the test, how do I choose a food corresponding with the results levels?
I've already purchase Jacks 20-20-20- n the 1-3-2 bloom. I thought they would be fine according to other post. Neverless, help get this noob flowing in the right direction UB. I have a bunch of stretched seedlings my buddy left in a clone tray for a month too long. I have new growth and finally getting color back I am using the 20-20-20 @ 400 PPM. I dont mean to sound redundant UB, I just want to get this done correclty the 1st time around. Thanks you for your time.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2010)

Megalith said:


> Great. Thanks UB. You said you prefer dyna over jacks for hydro. Is there a brand you like more than dynagro for hydro? How would one go about getting a water analyisis? From the results of the test, how do I choose a food corresponding with the results levels?
> I've already purchase Jacks 20-20-20- n the 1-3-2 bloom. I thought they would be fine according to other post. Neverless, help get this noob flowing in the right direction UB. I have a bunch of stretched seedlings my buddy left in a clone tray for a month too long. I have new growth and finally getting color back I am using the 20-20-20 @ 400 PPM. I dont mean to sound redundant UB, I just want to get this done correclty the 1st time around. Thanks you for your time.


Please, this topic is about stretching, long internodes. For learning the basics there is nothing like Mel Frank's Guide or doing some research. 

Good luck,
UB


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## EsmeWeatherwax (Feb 10, 2010)

Hello UB, thanks for another great thread, your teachings have helped us out a great deal. Although thanks to you we now have a shelf full of unused AN nutes, we switched to Jacks and are very happy with the results so far, just the change in nutes has reduced the strech and no yellowing leaves late into flower.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2010)

EsmeWeatherwax said:


> Hello UB, thanks for another great thread, your teachings have helped us out a great deal. Although thanks to you we now have a shelf full of unused AN nutes, we switched to Jacks and are very happy with the results so far, just the change in nutes has reduced the strech and no yellowing leaves late into flower.


Glad to hear it. Plant nutrition can not be changed, no matter how much folks want to believe in the "new" methods. Salts are salts, and weed is weed.


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## Mcgician (Feb 10, 2010)

Great pointers once again UB. Thanks! I'm going to be going with a more simplified nutritional feeding program like the one I started six months ago and got great results from. I am going to try the Humboldt Gravity product though.


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## Kriegs (Feb 10, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Dug up some more info regarding plant stretch UB.
> 
> http://www.onhort.com/What-Really-Causes-Stretch-article2891
> 
> Can you recommend some other veg ferts, that lack P, that wont burn a hole in my pocket?


+rep for you, Dave-O... that was a really good article.


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## Wetdog (Feb 11, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> You really need to have a water analysis and use a food that works best with its profile. Having said that, since Dyna-Gro is complete, I'd use it for hydro before using Jacks. Jacks is really designed for soil, it contains less minerals by design. Soil should provide for alot of those minerals.


So, if I'm figuring right, a soil less mix (I make my own, but close to promix), should be figured closer to hydro requirements than 'real' dirt?

I've used Peters for years, but would like to give the Dyna-Gro a shot, especially the Foilage Pro.

Getting the water analysis done now. Found out the hard way it's not even close to what we had in SoFla.

Wet


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## potpimp (Mar 5, 2010)

Down for this too.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 5, 2010)

Wetdog said:


> So, if I'm figuring right, a soil less mix (I make my own, but close to promix), should be figured closer to hydro requirements than 'real' dirt?
> 
> I've used Peters for years, but would like to give the Dyna-Gro a shot, especially the Foilage Pro.
> 
> ...


Plant foods are designed for various mediums. If you're doing a soil-less or hydro, you need a more complete food as opposed to something like Peters which has the understanding that soil is providing some of the elements.


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## Shrubs First (Mar 5, 2010)

Jack's classic is great if you like EDTA's


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## Drr (Mar 19, 2010)

makes sense.. too much nitro throwing the green growth coupled with too much phos helping throw the energy... and there's not enough potash to harden it off.. 


Adnd i've been reading alot about this jack fellow..

I may try his all purpose 20-20-20 and the bloom booster...


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## i81two (Mar 20, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nice work Holmes!
> 
> Wanna safe bet? 20-20-20 ????????


 
So you would reccomend Jacks 20-20-20 for veg and flower or switch to Jacks Blossem Booster 10-30-20 with the higher P for flower ?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 20, 2010)

i81two said:


> So you would reccomend Jacks 20-20-20 for veg and flower or switch to Jacks Blossem Booster 10-30-20 with the higher P for flower ?


And what good is the higher P if the plant doesn't require it? It's not plant food that produces abundant flowers, it's leaves. So....you give the plant whatever it takes to produce and maintain the most amount of foliage going into harvest.

UB


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## i81two (Mar 20, 2010)

Thats why i ask. So if all u need is the 20-20-20 why is the bloom Booster or whatever it is called even made.


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## mrduke (Mar 20, 2010)

Uncle Ben do you run foliage-pro all the way thru? If so do you adjust the amounts in flower/veg. I've order some but cant find much info on itbut it sure seems like the way to go


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## deflator (Mar 21, 2010)

i81two said:


> Thats why i ask. So if all u need is the 20-20-20 why is the bloom Booster or whatever it is called even made.


A 1-1-1 will get you through to the end of flowering. It provides every major nutrient. 

Is it optimal? No. Plants have different needs at different times and its all about reading what those are and providing it.



mrduke said:


> Uncle Ben do you run foliage-pro all the way thru? If so do you adjust the amounts in flower/veg. I've order some but cant find much info on itbut it sure seems like the way to go


Most people transition between veg and bloom formulas slowly when you start flower. Some food makers even supply feeding charts you can get an idea from, but don't use them exclusively.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2010)

i81two said:


> Thats why i ask. So if all u need is the 20-20-20 why is the bloom Booster or whatever it is called even made.


It's a marketing gimmick mainly. If P is needed for good flowering, then more P means more flowers, right? It's all about the money.



mrduke said:


> Uncle Ben do you run foliage-pro all the way thru? If so do you adjust the amounts in flower/veg. I've order some but cant find much info on itbut it sure seems like the way to go


I have, depends on what's going on with the plant and the soil.

UB


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## mrduke (Mar 21, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> I have, depends on what's going on with the plant and the soil.
> 
> UB


 boy thats a pretty vague answer UB. do you recommend the foilage only or adding the mag for boost (by the way this is hydro)


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 22, 2010)

mrduke said:


> boy thats a pretty vague answer UB. do you recommend the foilage only or adding the mag for boost (by the way this is hydro)


You can use Foliage Pro for veg and the Bloom for flowering. Lot's of info at the Dyna-Gro site, you need to look.

UB


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## kanz (Jan 2, 2011)

I know the threads old but thought i would chip in my 2p.<br>
Ive found hanging the light's vert helps alot. <br> <br>
Long ago my flowering space height wise anyway was rather small im talking approx 3-4 foot if i was lucky<br> <br>
Well i had 1 400hps for flower, they where vegged under 2 cfl's 125w 1
of each spec. My veg room was about 6" smaller than flower room, but
the plants where usually almost touching the roof before i moved them
into the flower room.<br> <br>
As i said my flower room was not much bigger than my veg room , at
first i thought it wasnt gonna work. However when i placed the plants
into the flowering room (remmber the 400w hps was hung vert, most
plants i had where approx the same size at the legnth of the hps bulb
when entering. Once they started to flower they never really grew much
in hieght wise , bit they used to really bush out.<br>
The only time I ever had probs was with 1+ year old mums who same again never strethched much but really bushed out.<br><br>Altho the conditions where not the best in that grow enviroment which prob stoped them growing to there full patential. Basiccly what im trying to say is I found that the plants only really grow as much as you let them in a sence. <br>Very few times did i have plants try to grow threw the roof, what i did have problems with tho was the way they bushed out , I even chanced my luck at a more sativa grow and i found the same thing out , didnt get much taller but shew grew in a big sidewards bush takeing the place of 3 plants.<br>


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## DrGreenthumbVT (Apr 22, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just answered a PM on the issue, thought I'd post a ditty here.
> 
> The Stretch is aggravating for indoor growers. Outdoor growers could care less unless they're trying to come under a 6' tall privacy fence (been there, done that). Here is a link on some of the nutritional issues that play into plants stretching, and will apply to cannabis too. I buy foods from these people. They are of very high quality and their tech staff are too. It behooves a large greenhouse op that is growing annuals to ship to far away destinations to grow and finish plants that are fairly short, stocky and with strong stems. Too much ammonical N and high P foods contribute to The Stretch according to this source, light and temps aside for now.
> 
> ...



I agree Uncle Ben...Jacks Classic Def works great and it doesnt cost a fortune like other brands


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