# Bubblelicious, New York Power Diesel, and Super Skunk in DWC



## Bob Smith (Oct 1, 2009)

*Disclaimer: This is all purely fictional and for the readers enjoyment.
**This is a wordy post.
Well ladies and gents, after a ten year hiatus to pretend to do grownup things, Im back in the saddle.got some seeds from some killer weed which will be going into the system first to make sure all systems are go, and I also have Bubblelicious, New York Power Diesel, and Super Skunk going right now (germed about five days ago after receiving from Nirvana about a week after my order).
First lemme give you a rundown of what I know, and then I can talk about my setup a little bit.
So this will be about my sixth or seventh grow  I first started growing in college, and almost always on a shoestring budget and trying to (out of necessity) make things do things that they were not designed or capable to do. First few grows were in soil and the last two or three were bubblers, and I learned a lot, although not as much as I couldve with the proper capital to really get up and running. So, I know what Im doing for the most part, but am not as familiar as Id like to be with CO2 and nutrient schedules (although Im sure that most things I knew ten years ago about nutes would be obsolete, anyway).
Got laid off a few months ago like many others in my industry, and figured what better time to grow some weed, and be able to do it the right way this time with money not being so much of a constraint.
So, onto the setup
Using a Sun Hut Silver LG for vegging with a 400 watt HPS in there right now (yeah, yeah, I know MHs preferred for vegging, but Ive been too lazy to buy the bulb and really dont think it makes much difference anyways  yes, it is a digital ballast so I can switch back and forth).
Im currently cooling the light with a 6 inline fan which puts out ~450CFM; initially had one of these dedicated to just cooling the light and a second for exhaust, but that was some serious overkill on my part.
Intake is done via a 4 inline fan which pumps ~170CFM  as an aside, both of these fans are controlled by a TMP-DNe, which turns them on if the set temp is exceeded by a certain amount  I chose 5 degrees, which means they pop on at 75 degrees and turn off at about 69, keeping the room always 69-75 degrees.
Theres no oscillating fan in there of any kind because at this point I dont feel its necessary  when those two fans come on the air in that room gets moving pretty effing good. If things change (like the fans dont come on as much in the wintertime) then Ill re-evaluate and possibly add one, but for now Im comfy without it.
Been using and will probably continue to use GH nutrients, simply because theyre, well, simple. Have gotten copious amounts of House and Garden samples from my hydro store, but Im gonna wait for a bit before doing any comparison tests or things of that nature, simply because Id like to get up and running before I start doing anything too exotic.
Growing in 18 gallon rubbermaids with 4 14 air stones in each; nothing you havent seen a bazillion times anyways, so I wont waste your time with pics of the inside, etc  its some airstones making bubbles, just trust me  keep my pH right around 6, you know the drill.
So I guess that about does it for the veg area  onto to the flower design (if I dont get too stoned Ill put it together today, minus the 6 Phresh Filter, which should be into my store either tomorrow or Saturday).
So, Im gonna have 6 18 gallon rubbermaids in the flowering room, each holding 4 plants (thats 24 plants for the slower members out there). Gonna have a perpetual harvest with half the room changing each month, so Ill harvest twelve plants each month and throw twelve more in (for those who need to read up on how a perpetual harvest works, Id link you to some good threads but dont know how  just do a search). My current plan is to start flowering at about 12 height, but thats gonna take some experimentation and going to be strain dependent. That being said, figure flowering at 12 should get me to about 2-3 feet for most strains, which is fine by me.
Gonna have a 6 inline dedicated to cooling my 1000 watt HPS in there, and also a 6 inline for exhaust (through the 6 Phresh filter) and a 4 for intake.
Um, thats really all I can think of right now  my plan is to get my first flowering room up and running within about a week or two and then have an identical second one up and running sometime in late January/early February which will run on a reverse schedule so as to not overload the breaker (only have 40 amps in my garage); so as one light is on the other will be off and vice versa  this way the only overlap will be their fans and water pumps, which isnt that big of a deal.
I know 40 amps would be enough to run all three at the same time pretty easily, but Im trying to plan ahead for the summer, when temps can get 100+ in there, so Im gonna need a fairly large AC which will draw ~1500 watts (if not more).
So, I know Ive missed some stuff but I can always cover that laterso here are the pics:



GH nutrients, Superthrive, pH meter, TDS meter, yada yada..thats a digital thermometer hanging down at the top there.


The right side is there all the free samples go..I felt so shady taking that syringe with Root Excelurator out of the store (in front of the fungicide)  definitely didnt wanna get pulled over with that and have to explain it.


Cleaned WalMart out of 14 airstones the last two times Ive been theretheres a 100 roll of ½ black tubing in the back there for my pond pump for nute changeouts


This pic really doesnt do the bottom shelf justice  if this whole project doesnt work out, Im pretty sure I could open up my own HVAC supply shop with all the shit Ive bought and ended up not needingthe shelf above that are the two 6 inline fans which are going in my flower tent.


Lol..so I wanted to get a picture of how light tight the tent was (its REALLY light tight, FYI), so my dumb ass turned off the lights in there and took a picture, only to realize that a flash kinda ruined the effect.for a smart guy I do some dumb shit.


[FONT=&quot]Heres the 4 inline which is intake for my veg tent.somewhat of a ghetto rigging with it sitting on a box, but it works for me..needed to use a reducer for it to fit the 6 flanges of the tent.[/FONT]



This was the best lady out of the bag beans I started  unfortunately for her, we dont allow dirt in our hydro tent, so shes kinda shit outta luckthinking of putting up fliers around the neighborhood saying that shes free to a good home  just took twelve clones off of her yesterday, which is why shes looking kinda gaunt.


Heres the 6 inline which is responsible for exhausting the room as well as cooling the light


Top left is two moms (clones from the dirt mom that rooted a week or two ago)  plan on having one of them and then a mom from each strain of the seedlings, which are in the bottom right..the top right is some other plants clones that Ive been running nute tests on so see how much they can take
Apologies for the ghetto hole covers, need to get to Wal Mart and get some thick plastic placemats to cut and use as covers.


Numbers 1-4 are Bubblelicious, 5-8 are NY Diesel, and 9-12 are Super Skunk.

Closer shot  I dont know how to use a camera very well, obviously.

This is the sensor for the TMP-DNe  its hung a couple of inches below the light level.




This is the controller with the temp settings and the differentials on the left  this things kinda cool because it can be used for either heating or cooling.


Im a thermometer maniac.


Trust me.


Hydroton, more Rubbermaids, buckets, random shit. You know how it is.


Two fifty gallon trash cans and a 633GPH pond pump for nutrient changes and topping off.


Clones taken yesterday  I hate Rapid Rooters because the SOBs can barely stand by themselves.


The flowering tent Ill be putting together either tonight or tomorrow or Saturday.
Sooooooooooooooooooo, all that being said, any questions/comments/criticism (doesnt even have to be constructive) are welcome.
Gonna try to keep this as updated as possible, and with no job it shouldnt be that difficult of a task.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 1, 2009)

Well, checked on the ladies and detected a faint odor of algae (man do I hate that fugging smell).

Anyhow, emptied all the tanks out, scrubbed them down, and then refilled with nutes and 300mLs of H2O2 each; also added an additional couple of airstones per tub.

Definitely in the uber early stages, but I wanna nip this shit in the bud immediately - gonna see how they react to the 300mL I added and in a couple of days add some more if that's not enough.

Also ran over to the hydro store and ordered 30 net pot lids a piece of the 3" and 5" sizes.


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## goofygolfer (Oct 1, 2009)

nice set up i m scribed


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## Bob Smith (Oct 1, 2009)

Thanks dude - maybe I'll put the flowering tent together tonight, but something tells me that this packed bong in front of me is gonna have other ideas about how I use my time.


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## Knickers (Oct 1, 2009)

Subscribed 

Yay for not having a job


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## Bob Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

Knickers said:


> Subscribed
> 
> Yay for not having a job


Lol, yes, there are pluses and minuses to it, but I'm trying to make the best of it.

Okay, onto where we stand today - checked on the ladies a bit ago and the algae smell is definitely dissipating, and the pH stayed right around 6 as opposed to going up to 6.5+ like it was with that fugging algae screwing things up - gonna wait another day and then hit them with the rest of the H2O2 to totally get rid of that shit.

Also heading to the hydro store today to get my Phresh filter (never used one so I'm curious about that), but before I did that I had a question for anyone who could help:

Anyone ever made a connected bubbler system using the blueprints below?

http://www.weedbay.net/overgrow-thebook/Hydroponics/Art4.htm

This is the system that I wanted to go with originally as I like the sturdiness of buckets much more than Rubbermaids, but being as "not handy" as I am, I was worried about the construction of the system - looking back over it, it seems pretty easy, but was wondering if anyone had tried it and realized that Train1 had missed a step or anything like that.

Another question I had is if that system needs to have a pond pump or something like that constantly circulating water through, which I assumed before but now doesn't seem to be the case.

If not, I'm gonna make two different eight bucket systems for my flower room (perpetual harvest staggered every four weeks) and have one plant per bucket - I like the idea of just filling and draining from one main bucket as opposed to three different Rubbermaids each time, in addition to the less daily work of checking pH, water level, etc.

So, that's where I stand right now - not gonna put the flower tent together until tomorrow because there's still some stuff in the garage that needs to be taken out for trash day tomorrow before it's totally mine to grow out and blow out.

So I'm gonna wait for an hour-ish to see if anyone replies, and if not I'm just gonna head to the dro store and pickup a few of the parts I'll need and start tinkering - it's UNBELIEVABLY convenient having a hydro store two minutes away from me, lemme tell ya.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

All right, no replies so I'm off and running - heading to the hydro store, Home Depot, and then Wal-Mart (for an oscillating fan - realized after constructing my veg tent that in order to duct tape a fan to the poles of a tent, it should be done before the "skin" is draped over the tent poles).

Hydro Store:
6" Phresh Filter
A couple straight 1/2" barbs
A couple 1/2" rubber grommets

Home De Pot:
A bucket or two
Aluminum duct tape
7/8" wood-cutting drill bit

Wal-Mart:
Oscillating fan
Air stones/pumps (I can't go in there without buying a couple of each, it's an addiction)

See you all in a bit.


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## DUDE! (Oct 2, 2009)

Sweet job bob. Im doing hempy now. Started in dirt a few years ago. Workin my way to hydro! I hope i can pick some things up from you. Looks good and im scribed


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## Bob Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

Thanks DUDE!, happy to have you aboard.

So I'm obviously back from the stores and have been doing some tinkering; I'd tell you exactly what went down but pics show it better.



So here's the grommets and barbs from the hydro store - the dude likes me enough (plus I single-handedly keep the store in business) that he just gave 'em to me.



I could've bought the 7/8" drill bit by itself for $5, but for $5 more got all the drill bits that you see here, which ended up being a wise investment on my part.



Here's the 6" by 24" (thought it was by 18" before) Phresh filter that I just copped - hope to install by tomorrow-ish.



Here's the aluminum tape (extra thick for less applications - it's kinda expensive, that roll was $20) and a gallon of pH down - tap water's 7.5 in my neck of the woods.



Trial and error - trying different sizes, methods, etc. - that plastic's pretty brittle so it's kinda hard to get a nice, even hole out of it - now that I think about it, I wonder if a standard bit as opposed to a wood bit would work better. 



This is the size that finally ended up working best for me, although now I'm really thinking about using a normal drill bit.



This is my success story - even though I ended up getting the others to work, I needed to test whether or not it's really water tight - so far, so good, and I've been splashing and agitating it pretty good to check for leaks.



The inside, not a lot to see here.




So, that being done, where's it leave us?

Well, my thing is that I have no problem taping the buckets up with tape, because that's pretty easy, but the tops are a real biatch to work with; so my solution is as follows:

Gonna go buy 20ish buckets from Home Depot at $2.50 a piece and also just ordered 20 of the black, standard lids from US Plastic - was gonna do the buckets from them as well, but with shipping it came to like $5 more a bucket overall, and $100 isn't worth the fifteen minutes it'll take me to tape up the orange Depot buckets.

So, I'm fairly pleased right now, gonna be able to fill, drain, and test from one bucket as opposed to 3, and I also like that the buckets will be 100% light-proof.

An added benefit is that I love how much stronger the five gallon buckets are as opposed to the "flimsy-ish" Rubbermaids.


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## tmsculli (Oct 2, 2009)

Well shit Bob. Nothing like coming in with guns blazin eh?

Everything looks immaculate. Jealousy is filling haha.

subbed.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Well shit Bob. Nothing like coming in with guns blazin eh?
> 
> Everything looks immaculate. Jealousy is filling haha.
> 
> subbed.


Good to have you, friend - doesn't make much sense to do shit half-assed, now does it? 

Still got a ways to go, but I'm pretty stoked on building this bucket reservoir system - for someone who considered himself (with good reason) about as "un-handy" as they come, I'm surprising myself every day.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 2, 2009)

I'm good on connecting them, I think (still no leaks in my test bucket), but even though there will be two airstones in each bucket and a designated 60 gallon pump for each bucket, I'm a little hesitant about how the waters's gonna move around between buckets.

Therefore, instead of having one reservoir bucket which is attached to each feeder bucket, I was thinking of interconnecting each bucket and having a smallish pond pump moving the water between them - thoughts?

I know it'd prolly be okay the way Train1 (big thank you to him, wherever he is) designed it, but if air bubbles in each bucket are good, perhaps a pump moving oxygenated water between them is better? Somewhat of a failsafe in case a pump and/or airstones give out?

Would love some feedback.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 3, 2009)

All right, no one answered me, so I'm just gonna have to figure this out myself.

Gonna run two (2) eight or nine bucket systems (need to get the tent setup to see how many buckets I can cram up in there), each with a smallish pond pump in it (maybe 150GPH or something along those lines) - I'm going to have a "Y" connector in the bucket with the pump in it, so even if for some reason that pump goes down, then the system just becomes what Train1 designed, with passive water flow between buckets.

Anyways, not much to report until I get cracking today, but below is a pic of the buckets - FYI, you get some funny looks when you walk into Home Depot and only buy 20 buckets.


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## DUDE! (Oct 3, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> FYI, you get some funny looks when you walk into Home Depot and only buy 20 buckets.
> 
> View attachment 569191


I BET YOU DO LOL. I LIVE IN A SMALL TOWN AND WITH THE HEMPY BUCKETS I GO INTO WALMART AND BUY 8 8LITER BAGS OF PERLITE ALL WHILE SEEING 27 PEOPLE THAT I KNOW ASKIN. WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO WITH THAT?? . 

ON YOUR QUESTION! I WISH I COULD HELP, BUT THERE ISNT A CHANCE OF THAT.... THE TRAIN1 PLAN YOUR TALKIN ABOUT. DO YOU HAVE A LINK TO THAT?? AND BTW I DONT THINK YOUR GOING TO MAKE A BAD CHOICE ON WHAT YOU DO. EVERYONE I TALK TO ABOUT HYDRO SAYS PICK SOMETHING YOU LIKE AND BELIEVE IN AND YOU CANT GO WRONG...


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## Bob Smith (Oct 3, 2009)

Well, thankfully I don't live in a small town, so I don't have those worries (luckily enough).

As far as the link goes, here it is: 
http://www.weedbay.net/overgrow-theb...onics/Art4.htm

Instead of the one reservoir bucket attached to all the feeder buckets, I'm going to interconnect all the buckets to have a steady stream of water constantly circulating through them via a smaller pond pump, in addition to the air stones and air pumps in each individual bucket.

It's gonna be kind of a circulating DWC system - I'm gonna call it "Bob-o-ponics".


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## Bob Smith (Oct 3, 2009)

Pretty slow day today because of the nagging headache I've been having all day, but I'm now ready to get rocking and rolling with some productivity.

Went to the hydro store and Home Depot, and below is what happened:



Got this fan to tape to a pole in the flowering tent - was shocked it was only $35 at the hydro store.



This is the reflector that's going in the 4x4 tent - not sure of the measurements, but it's pretty damned big and I assume it's gonna give me some good coverage in there.



This is the little baby pump that I'm gonna use for my little experimental system to get a gentle water flow.



Grommets and barbs.



They didn't have any "Y" connectors at the hydro store, but I think that I can make this work just as well (you'll see how later).



These are two round bits I got from Home Depot (5/8" and 3/4", respectively) - gonna see if they work on the buckets better than the wood drill bits that Train1 recommended (hope to only have to use 1, these bits were $20 a piece).


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## Bob Smith (Oct 3, 2009)

I must've not been around when they taught classes in how to use duct tape, because I have more trouble than most, methinks.

Anyways, the pics tell the story.



Can't keep that damned ducting taped to the 6" inline - the inline doesn't have much surface area to tape to, so it's a real biatch.



Led to temps getting up to 81 - unacceptable.



Problem solved, hopefully - straightened the ducting out so hopefully the air will move a little better as well.



All the beans are looking good - most have multiple roots coming out of the netpot as opposed to just the taproot - I'm putting it at about three days before they really start taking off.



Mamas are looking good, roots are coming out of the 5" netpots now.



Clones are on schedule, although I'm gonna build a bubble cloner sometime this week or next - fugging hate those RR and how they can't stand up by themselves. I miss Jiffy Pellets.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 3, 2009)

So, put together a little test system - turns out those drill bits were so damn big that they didn't fit into my drill, unfortunately enough.

Luckily for me, I figured out how to make nice holes with the wood bit - basically you just need to be very quick and steady and pull out immediately once you've made the hole.

Another issue is that this little pump (which I bought today thinking it might even be a little strong for what I needed) is nowhere near as strong as I'd like - need to figure out if it makes sense to go with two (or more) pond pumps per system or just put one 600GPH+ pump into each - gonna hook up my 633 and see what kind of water flow that gives me - I want some real circulation, not what this 185's giving me.



Here it is, no leaks yet - loving that I'm gonna be going with buckets as opposed to Rubbermaids.



Here's the bucket with the pump attached - hooked up the "T" connector instead of a "Y", which is a failsafe in case the pump should go offline for any reason - if the pump stops working, than the system just reverts back to the passive one that was designed by Train1 (can't give him enough credit).

Gonna try to work up the energy to put the tent together tonight, but I'm kinda doubting that's gonna happen - since it's football and then golf tomorrow, might not make anymore progress until Monday.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 3, 2009)

Has anyone ever had one of these pumps going 24/7 in their DWC and/or reservoir (even for an E&F)? 

I'm asking because I'm wondering what kind of heat they might put out, and if anyone's got any input on if putting a pump in every fourth bucket (two 185GPH pumps per eight bucket system) would make a meaningful difference in the water temperature throughout the system.

Thanks in advance for anyone's input on this.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 3, 2009)

Well, tested out my 633 in the system, and it's clearly too strong - the bucket that was first in line to get pumped into was on the verge of overflowing after about thirty seconds of the pump being on (however, that was with the 633 pumping out directly, not through the "T" connector as the 185 was).

Happy that the system seems to be water tight, but it's clearly gonna need some more experimentation on my part - still need to figure out if having a pond pump(s) in the system would have a material impact on the water temperature and if I'm going to use them, what size and number I'd use - right now, my best guess would be a 350 GPH-ish pump and have two per system.


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## DUDE! (Oct 4, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Has anyone ever had one of these pumps going 24/7 in their DWC and/or reservoir (even for an E&F)?
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks in advance for anyone's input on this.


bob i have that same pump but in a clone bucket 3 gallon bucket. i leave it on 24/7 for 2 weeks to 3 weeks. no problems in that small amount of water.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 5, 2009)

DUDE! said:


> bob i have that same pump but in a clone bucket 3 gallon bucket. i leave it on 24/7 for 2 weeks to 3 weeks. no problems in that small amount of water.


Appreciate the input; so, no temp problems with the pump in that small amount of water, eh?

That's promising.

Gonna have a better update later, need to go handle some bidness right now.


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## Twils (Oct 5, 2009)

Looking good Bob! Nice grow you have there! For your inline fan problem with the duct tape not holding, I'd get a couple 6" worm drive clamps and use them on the flanges then duct tape over that, I've found this to work really well for me. Might I also suggest to gain a little more space in there and more efficiency on your fans, by shortening all the duct runs as much as possible and eliminating 90degree bends in the ducting as much as possible.

Here's how air flow is reduced by bends in the ducting:

Straight with no bend is the most efficient.
A 30Degree curve cuts up to 20% of air transmission
A 45Degree curve cuts up to 40% of air transmission
A 90Degree curve cuts up to 60% of air transmission

Hope this helps!
Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 5, 2009)

Thanks Twil, I'll look into those worm drive clamps at Home Depot tomorrow.

As far as the inline fans, I try to run them as straight as possible, but it can get kinda tough in a grow tent - putting together my bigger tent right now, will post pics tomorrow when I'm not so tired.


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## Twils (Oct 5, 2009)

I hear ya there Bob! 4'x4' is really not much space, takes a bit of creative thinking to make things fit haha! 

I believe they are like $1.69 each at Home Depot, The ones I got are the 6" clamp , they go from like 5 1/2" to 7" of drive

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 5, 2009)

Yeah, my 4x4 is what I'm working on now; the pics that you saw are my 4x2 veg tent.

Gonna upload the pics shortly because my girl decided to watch some bogus shit on TV.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 5, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, my 4x4 is what I'm working on now; the pics that you saw are my 4x2 veg tent.
> 
> Gonna upload the pics shortly because my girl decided to watch some bogus shit on TV.


So, as promised, pics.......



Really didn't feel like doing this - put together the 2x4 by myself and that wasn't easy, wasn't very happy thinking about doing the 4x4 solo.



Thank God I had Illadelph Halflife bumping to keep me motivated.



Boring and simple.



Connecting these two parts is a bitch for one person with a 4x4.



This is the 16" oscillating fan that I bought specifically for the tent.



And this is the 6" clip on fan which I settled on after the oscillating fan was obviously way too large.

Worked out that the 6" that I bought didn't really work either, so there's no fan inside the tent right now.

These tents aren't thoughtfully designed for mounting oscillating fans, IMHO.



Just wanted to ensure that the 16 buckets fit comfortably in the tent - still not sure if I'm gonna have a reservoir for each eight bucket system, and if I do, whether it will be inside or outside of the tent - if outside, they'd each be 9 bucket systems, FYI.

If I don't have a reservoir, I'm just going to have to lift up a plant from each system to check pH and TDS daily, which doesn't seem like that big of a deal right now (although that could change later).



So here's where I'm at right now - have installed the 6" inline which will only be cooling the 1000 watt.

Also have hung the 6" by 24" carbon filter, but still need to install the 6" inline which will be responsible for exhausting the room through the carbon filter.

Also my 4" inline for intake into the room.

Long day tomorrow, g'night all.

If anyone has any suggestions as to the best way to fit those three inlines, massive reflector, and gargantuan filter inside of a 4x4 tent, I'm all ears.


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## Twils (Oct 5, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, my 4x4 is what I'm working on now; the pics that you saw are my 4x2 veg tent.
> 
> Gonna upload the pics shortly because my girl decided to watch some bogus shit on TV.


Oh ok haha!

Damn man you put that 4x4 together solo?! Props for that! I don't wanna think how much of a pain that would have been!

Was the hardest part connecting the 2 halves?

Sick little set up you have there Bob! I've been getting things ready for a perpetual set up to harvest 3 plants every 2 weeks but was not sure if I could fit the homer buckets haha! Thanks for the confirmation!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

Twils said:


> Oh ok haha!
> 
> Damn man you put that 4x4 together solo?! Props for that! I don't wanna think how much of a pain that would have been!
> 
> ...


Yeah, the only other person who knows I grow in the world is 5'3 and was at work (my girlfriend and roommate), so I had to beast that little sonuvabitch by myself - even at 6'3 and 230lbs, the hardest part wasn't connecting the two halves, but pulling the heavy skin over them.

Gonna try for some solid progress today, pics will be coming - since it's a grow journal, I figure I might as well update how the actual plants are coming along.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

Well, since I'm beyond overwhelmed at the thought of putting all this shit together right now, here's some current plant pics..........topped off all the bubblers with 5.3ish water because they were all at either 6.1 or 6.2, so now they're all right at 6.0.



Here's the clones, all recovering nicely from when I found them pretty damned dry yestereday - probably add a couple of extra days to their rooting, but I think they'll all be fine - gonna make a bubble cloner fairly soon (for my next batch).



Beans are doing good for the most part, but two of them seem to have had the same problem as the clones - water level got a little low and two of them were really dried out - hand water them this morning, so we'll see how they do, but the others are doing great and their roots tell me that they're getting close to officially being vegging plants as opposed to seedlings.



Here are the two "mamas" (really both clones off the original dirt mama) - they're both recovering nicely from the bout of algae/root rot that I was fighting - I love me some H2O2, works like a fugging charm.



Here are some "test" plants that I was messing around with - they're all doing pretty well, too, and have new white root growth as opposed to the brown crap that they had before. In addition, that algae smell that I hate is all but gone.



So here's what I need to do today (which has me feeling overwhelmed) - hang the line, another 6" fan, my 4" fan, and make sure the carbon filter isn't gonna come crashing down on my ladies.

Running to Home Depot to get:

Hangers for the light (it came with one of those yo-yo hangers, but I don't trust that as much as I trust some good old chain and steel hooks, I'm old school)
Bungees (only four came with the tent, need LOTS more)

Also gonna stop by the hydro store and see if my neoprene inserts came for my bubble cloner that I'm going to build.


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## pwizzle (Oct 6, 2009)

Nice grow. Really nice setup!!
Good things to come from Mr. bob


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

pwizzle said:


> Nice grow. Really nice setup!!
> Good things to come from Mr. bob


Thanks pwizzle, glad to have you aboard.

So just got back from Home Of Pot and my hydro store........



Can never have enough duct tape, and bought bungees of every shape and size for hanging the fans and filter from.



Hydro store just got this new micro bubble airstone, so of course I had to get one to try it out.



The neoprene inserts I'd ordered through the store also came in - have 25 of these little suckers.

Well, enough break time, gonna eat some lunch and then get cracking on finishing this setup, although I highly doubt it's gonna get finished by today.


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## tmsculli (Oct 6, 2009)

Looks good brother I am glad you are enjoying putting it all together too. That was the best feeling for me, realizing that I had made everything myself.


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## Twils (Oct 6, 2009)

Looking good bob! It sounds like you and I had the same experience setting up our 4x4's ! my wife is all of 5'4" and I'm also 6'3" .. having her help trying to put the halves and the canvas over was well... I needed more than 1 joint lets put it that way lol!

Looking really good though! Keep up the good work and positive thinking!

burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

Thanks gentlemen, the words of encouragement are certainly nice when going about this undertaking; made some good progress for a while and am calling it quits for the day to go workout - here's where I'm at:



So here's the amount of shit I had to hang from the ceiling - reflector, two 6" inlines, one 4" inline, and the carbon filter.

Yay.



Obviously need to start with the light, as that's the one piece of the puzzle that is non-negotiable in terms of placement; everything else can go wherever it fits, but the light needs to be centered.



So I got the light hooked up to its own dedicated 6" for cooling; still curious how hot that's gonna run when it's on - obviously, time will tell.



And this is the carbon filter hooked up to the other 6" for cleaning the air before it's exhausted out of the tent - have never used a filter before, so I'm curious to see how well this works (the one I got is supposed to be badass, it's a Phresh Filter).

So that's about it, except that I made some progress on the fan front - seems like I can hang a couple of those 6" clip-on fans from the ceiling via bungees in each tent, thereby always having some airflow in there, even if the exhaust and intake fans aren't running.

In case anyone was wondering, yes, I am a little nervous about that much weight hanging from some flimsy metal poles, but you can't live life without taking risks; that being said, anyone's input and/or suggestions for mitigating that risk would definitely be appreciated.


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## Twils (Oct 6, 2009)

We seem to have the same tents, I was a little concerned about the flimsy bars also, but the more I thought about it, I really don't have much weight directly in the center at one given point on the bars.

I had a vertical fixture set up for a little bit which weighs about 35lb's which was directly in the center of one of the bars for over night and it held up without collapse, The next day it was replaced with another horizontal fixture.

I think if you keep most of the weight near the edges more so than the centers of the bars you should be alright. As a safe bet I'd estimate that I've got approx 55-60lbs hanging from the top right now.

I've been thinking thought... after this set of girls is flowered out I'd like to put some extra bars up for support, but trying to figure out how to attach them still.

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

Twils said:


> We seem to have the same tents, I was a little concerned about the flimsy bars also, but the more I thought about it, I really don't have much weight directly in the center at one given point on the bars.
> 
> I had a vertical fixture set up for a little bit which weighs about 35lb's which was directly in the center of one of the bars for over night and it held up without collapse, The next day it was replaced with another horizontal fixture.
> 
> ...


Thanks Twils, appreciate the input - I'm not too worried about the tent collapsing, but I guess crazier shit has happened, so it's a definite risk - BTW, what kind of a system are you running in your tent?

And what all do you have hanging from the ceiling, pretty much the same stuff as me or some different things?


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## Twils (Oct 6, 2009)

Hanging from the ceiling right now I've got:

1 Old school magnetic ballast attached to hood (horizontal reflector) 400w (weighs like 30 lbs! freaking beast! LOL)
1 Cool-Sun XL 6" Air Cooled Hood w/ remote ballast (approx 15lbs, the box says 28lbs but I think that's bogus)(went off that approx weight though for my ceiling weight)
1 6" Eco Plus Inline Fan 440cfm (approx 10lbs)
1 8" fan hung upside down because I could not find any where to mount it (approx 2 lbs)
1 10" Oscillating fan hung upside down because I could not find any where to mount it either (approx ~3 lbs)
Some duct work hanging from a Y adapter to air cool the hood and exhaust the room at the same time, about 2-4lbs worth of extra crap that I'm forgetting.

Still need to buy/hang:
1 Carbon filter
1 6" Eco Plus Inline Fan 440cfm
1 1 Cool-Sun XL 6" Air Cooled Hood w/ remote ballast

The ballast (s) are out side of the tent sitting on the floor with a little fan blowing on it to help keep it cool.

Burn on! 

Edit: Total of 800w of lighting (2- 400's) Although I'll be upgrading to 2- 600's after this grow. and moving those lights into a different room.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

Twils said:


> Hanging from the ceiling right now I've got:
> 
> 1 Old school magnetic ballast attached to hood (horizontal reflector) 400w (weighs like 30 lbs! freaking beast! LOL)
> 1 Cool-Sun XL 6" Air Cooled Hood w/ remote ballast (approx 15lbs, the box says 28lbs but I think that's bogus)(went off that approx weight though for my ceiling weight)
> ...


Thanks man - sounds like we're both gonna have our ceilings packed to the gills - just checked out your grow, that shit's looking great


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## Twils (Oct 6, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Thanks man - sounds like we're both gonna have our ceilings packed to the gills - just checked out your grow, that shit's looking great


No prob bro!

Can't wait to see your set up up and running! The ceilings are definitely packed that's for sure! 

I've been thinking of how I could attach some more supports some how to make it a little bit more structurally sound. Still trying to figure that one out though, guess I could bolt on some 2x4's if need be.

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

Twils said:


> No prob bro!
> 
> Can't wait to see your set up up and running! The ceilings are definitely packed that's for sure!
> 
> ...


Truthfully, I'm not too worried about it - the filter I got is half the weight of most, and these are metal pipes - the more I think about it, the more confident I am that they'll hold up the 35-40ish pounds that are up there.

If they don't, I'll just send Sun System an invoice for the (hopefully) 1.25-1.5 pounds of weed that their faulty tent ruined.


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## Twils (Oct 6, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Truthfully, I'm not too worried about it - the filter I got is half the weight of most, and these are metal pipes - the more I think about it, the more confident I am that they'll hold up the 35-40ish pounds that are up there.
> 
> *If they don't, I'll just send Sun System an invoice for the (hopefully) 1.25-1.5 pounds of weed that their faulty tent ruined.*


^^HAHA Awesome!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2009)

So, after some thought and some cocktails, I've decided to go to CO2 for my first flowering session - was planning on holding off until I had my first crop and recouped some money, but have now decided to go balls out and say "fugg it".

I figure that even if my yields only increase by 10% instead of the 20%+ that people who are really dialed in get that I'll have more than made up for the expense of the initial outlay for the equipment.

That being said, I'm purchasing 3 20 pound tanks off a dude tomorrow (figured that tanks are the way to go because I don't need or want anymore heat in my grow room, and my hydro store will fill them up with no questions asked, which was the biggest deal to me).

I'm also going to buy the Sentinel CHHC-1 for climate control in my flower room, so that only leaves the regulator/solenoid valve thingy that I need to purchase, I believe.

So firstly, can anyone confirm that a simple $150ish CO2 regulator will be all that I need besides the tanks and the CHHC-1?

Also, is there a certain regulator that would be preferable over others, as per anyone's experiences? I.e., I've been reading about valves freezing and whatnot, do I need to buy one of those heaters for the solenoid valve?

Many, many thanks to anyone who can help me out with some info, and if I get said info, there will (hopefully) be some ridiculously sick weed pics being posted for the next few months+.

Thanks in advance for your time.


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## Twils (Oct 6, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> So, after some thought and some cocktails, I've decided to go to CO2 for my first flowering session - was planning on holding off until I had my first crop and recouped some money, but have now decided to go balls out and say "fugg it".
> 
> I figure that even if my yields only increase by 10% instead of the 20%+ that people who are really dialed in get that I'll have more than made up for the expense of the initial outlay for the equipment.
> 
> ...



Sorry Bob probably a worthless post on my part, but can't help ya there on the c02, but would love to learn more my self about it!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

No worries buddy; we can learn together 

Picking up three tanks and ordering my CHHC-1 today, so then I'm pretty sure I just need to pick up the regulator from my hydro store and I think that I'm rocking and rolling.

If anyone had any tips/tricks/suggestions, though, that'd certainly be appreciated.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

Obviously as per my last post, meet some random dude for those CO2 tanks.

In addition, was worried that the phenotype that I chose for my mother (there were two, with three of the four plants exhibiting similar sativa characteristics and one plant which was clearly more indica dominant) would have an absurdly long flowering time (love smoking sativa, just hate growing it), so I checked on the one clone I had left from the more indica dominant plant, and sure enough, she's got white hairs showing. Would much rather the shorter flowering time and heavier yields from her, so we're gonna do the ole' switcheroo.

Here's some pics for ya:



The sativa phenotype which I'd initially (like up until this morning) planned to be my mama (of course, this is just killing time until my beans are ready to be flowered, so it's not that weighty of a decision, but I don't want a 12 or 13 week sativa in there screwing up my flowering schedule).



My new indica mommy - ignore the burns on some of her lower leaves, was testing the limits of those plants - I'll treat her much more nicely now kiss-ass




Some random seedling pictures to show you how big those little guys are getting - still waiting for the explosive growth, hoping that it'll be any day now.

So the plan is to build a bubble cloner today (wanted to put together my flowering tent first, but this needs to be done today for speed's sake, so this is what's getting done).

Everything I'll need:



Air pump, tubing, air stone, bucket (just remembered I need to grab a "T" fitting out of the garage).



Neoprene inserts, extra wide aluminum duct tape, and my ferocious guard dog - you can call him "Bob Jr.".



My totally light-proof black bucket lids which were delivered yesterday - these things are fugging badass.

So those things and my drill and I'm off and running - will post pics when it's done, hopefully shortly.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

Well, this was easy enough and didn't take much time; before the pics, a couple of things I noticed:

1) That aluminum tape is totally light-proof and pretty badass; much easier to apply than I thought it'd be

2) Black lids are SO much better than the cheapo Home Depot lids - these are made out of hard, brittle plastic as opposed to the flimsy and pliable Home Depot lids - also totally lightproof

3) That new airstone I got which puts out the "micro" bubbles is probably the greatest invention in the world - the difference between one of those and a cheapo Wal-Mart airstone is night and day.

So that being said, here are the pics:



Since the lid was black, needed to use my girl's white nail polish to mark out where I'd be drilling.



Easy enough, took about a minute and a half.



Add the neoprene inserts on top and it almost looks professional.



This is the "T" fitting attached to my air pump because the pump has two outlets but I'm only running one airstone.



The picture doesn't do this airstone justice - we're talking bubbles galore - definitely gonna use these in every bucket; kind of annoying that they're five bucks a piece, but you pay for quality, I guess.



The finished product - letting it run for a while to check that it's really getting things wet, but after two minutes most of the neoprene inserts were soaked on the bottom - gonna check again shortly, but it's definitely working well so far.

So, now onto finishing the duct work in my flower tent before I go meet this dude for some CO2 tanks.


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## Imlovinit (Oct 7, 2009)

Wow man nice setup! A well planed setup saves time in the long run. That Bubblecloner looks like a great way to clone. Sometime when u get a minute (if u haven't already), take a look at some of the threads on Bubbleponics. You don't even have to buy a manifold u can jury rig one out of some hose and T's. Oh yeah before i forget, how much are Co2 tanks running these days like $120? I'll be lurking around keeping an eye on this thread, good luck. Later!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

Imlovinit said:


> Wow man nice setup! A well planed setup saves time in the long run. That Bubblecloner looks like a great way to clone. Sometime when u get a minute (if u haven't already), take a look at some of the threads on Bubbleponics. You don't even have to buy a manifold u can jury rig one out of some hose and T's. Oh yeah before i forget, how much are Co2 tanks running these days like $120? I'll be lurking around keeping an eye on this thread, good luck. Later!


Thanks man, happy to have you along for the ride.

As far as bubbleponics goes, I guess it's marginally faster when starting from seed, but since I don't plan on growing from seed very often, I don't think it's worth my time (trying to keep things as simple as possible, and for the incremental 1% in time saved/faster growth, I'm adding 30% more problems and things that could go wrong). The cost-benefit analysis doesn't seem to make sense (to me, anyways).

And I'm getting three CO2 tanks from some dude in the city for $125 - they're used, but they look fine in the pics, and I assume that they'll be just what I need - refill two at a time and always have one connected.

FYI, these are 20lb tanks.

Good luck with your grow.


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## Imlovinit (Oct 7, 2009)

Thanks for the info Bob!


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## DND (Oct 7, 2009)

NICE setup Bob! I didn't see the link to your grow before today, otherwise I would have been over sooner. Tell me how that temp thing works on page one if you would. I may need that in the near future.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

DND said:


> NICE setup Bob! I didn't see the link to your grow before today, otherwise I would have been over sooner. Tell me how that temp thing works on page one if you would. I may need that in the near future.


It works for both heating and cooling - if you'll notice in the pic on the first page, there's a switch on the right side to set it for heating or cooling, whichever you'd prefer.

On the left side is the differential that you want, either 3, 5, or 7 degrees - mine's set for cooling at 70 degrees with a five degree differential, so as soon as it hits 75, the exhaust and intake fans come on until it gets it back down to about 69/70.

It was like $70 online, not too bad.

Anyhow, just got back from buying those tanks off that dude (wasn't as shady as I'd thought it be, it was actually a restaurant that was installing a new keg system and didn't need these smaller tanks), here they are:



Not sure why the one doesn't have the plastic carrying thing, but I assume that doesn't interfere with the operation of it, so I really couldn't care less, as long as that's the case.

Also, left my new cloner on for the couple of hours that I was gone, and every neoprene insert is sopping wet on the bottom = success.


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## Twils (Oct 7, 2009)

Looking really good Bob! Loving that cloner!!

It should be interesting to see everything set up in that bad boy and how it performs now!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

Twils said:


> Looking really good Bob! Loving that cloner!!
> 
> It should be interesting to see everything set up in that bad boy and how it performs now!
> 
> Burn on!


Thanks for checking in - gonna try to take some cuttings tonight but more likely I'll get them done tomorrow.

Figure that they'll still beat the cuttings I took a few days ago which are in Rapid Rooters.


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## Earl (Oct 7, 2009)

You about to fire up the cloner ?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

Earl said:


> You about to fire up the cloner ?


It's actually been running all day to test it out, but I'm probably not gonna fill it up until tomorrow morning - vegging out in front of the TV for the rest of the night, methinks.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

Just bought this:

http://www.ecogrow.com/index.cfm?product=2224&special=new

I'm fugging stoked - sure hope this works out 

Last thing I need is a regulator for my new CO2 tanks, and then hopefully I'm done with all my large purchases before I get the second flower tent setup.

Holy krikes am I into this project for some money, but I've got faith that it'll all be worth it


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## Bob Smith (Oct 7, 2009)

BTW, in case there was any confusion, I didn't buy it from the link I posted - got it for $510 off of eBay, and that includes shipping.

Just an FYI in case anyone thought your boy Bob doesn't shop around before he buys.


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## Earl (Oct 8, 2009)

Good Buy.
.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

Earl said:


> Good Buy.
> .


Yeah, never used CO2 before, so I figured I'd get something that'll do the thinking for me and minimize waste.

I'm excited for it, but what a damn day I have in store today - doing my conversion to buckets and away from Rubbermaids, and am going to build a seven or eight (including the reservoir) bucket system for my veg tent today.

Basically going to have eight buckets in there and one reservoir bucket outside to control the seven buckets that are connected in the tent - the only standalone bucket will be my cloner, and then there's going to be five buckets for varying stages of veg growth and two buckets for mamas - figure those seven buckets will all roughly be on the same nute schedule anyways, so that's what I'm planning to do, unless I quickly hear of a good reason not to.

Need to run to the hydro store and grab eight of those $5 airstones and then I'm good to go - just gonna use my test system from the other night, so it's really just taping out the buckets and cutting holes in the lid, shouldn't take long at all.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

Not sure if anyone's been following my trials and tribulations on the "Bored Electrician" thread, but it's seeming more and more like I've only got 20 amps running to the garage (as opposed to the 40 I'd previous thunk), so I'm in a holding pattern until I hear what the real deal is - if I've only got twenty, I'm gonna have to break both tents down and move them inside into a spare bedroom (not a big deal) in order to allow an electrician access to wire me up for at least 40 (hopefully 50 or 60) amps of power.

Then we'll be fugging rocking and rolling, but until I find out the scoop with that, new construction is on hold.

Just wanted to keep everyone in the loop, although I'm still gonna run out to the hydro store and pickup those air stones in a minute.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

So I went to the hydro store and got these things..........



My net pot covers came in, which is okay - they seem pretty cheap and flimsy to me, but I'm not quite sure what I was expecting - I'm sure they'll do what they're designed to do, which is to block out light from the root zone.



Also grabbed seven more of these killer airtones - these things are badass and well worth the extra money, IMHO.



Not sure what this is all about, but the dude said his boss told him to give me this 4x4 Botanicare (slightly used) E&F table for free, so I lugged this biatch home - maybe I'll do E&F in my second flowering tent; who knows, maybe I'll do it in my first.

So that's about it for today, am also calling electricians to get guesstimates as to what it's gonna cost me to run an additional 20-40 amps to the garage to supplement the 20 I already have in there.

As an aside, was thinking on my way home from the hydro store that maybe this thread should be in growroom setup and design as opposed to grow journals, because there's sure a lot more setup and design than plant pics (not by choice, believe me).

Anyone know how I'd go about getting this thread moved?


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## tmsculli (Oct 8, 2009)

Everything looks great brother. As far as getting it moved, I wouldn't worry about it. The only thing is that you will get much more traffic having a journal in a different topic than the actual grow journals area. They should move the ones from those areas into the grow journal one is what I think. Regardless, keep us updated and keep up the good work brother.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Everything looks great brother. As far as getting it moved, I wouldn't worry about it. The only thing is that you will get much more traffic having a journal in a different topic than the actual grow journals area. They should move the ones from those areas into the grow journal one is what I think. Regardless, keep us updated and keep up the good work brother.


Appreciate it man, thanks - stopped in to see yours today but I don't know dick about SCROG so I couldn't really comment, but like you, this project's starting to bleed my pockets pretty good.

I'm sure it'll pay off, but the bills do keep on adding up, especially with the $1000 I'm gonna have to pay this damned electrician.

Oh well, just means that it'll get done the right way, and I'll really be rocking and rolling soon.

Again, thanks for stopping by and listening to my rants.


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## tmsculli (Oct 8, 2009)

Haha, no problem at all brother. See, I assume you are in a rather permanent residence as well? That is extremely helpful. I will only be getting this one year out of this room. I get to keep all of my capital, but I have to rebuild the closet to how it was and patch up my holes etc and leave no trace kinda deal. I have until May 31st though so I can hopefully get a few crops out. I may even flower the mother in the end since I can't imagine transporting her moving to a new place.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Haha, no problem at all brother. See, I assume you are in a rather permanent residence as well? That is extremely helpful. I will only be getting this one year out of this room. I get to keep all of my capital, but I have to rebuild the closet to how it was and patch up my holes etc and leave no trace kinda deal. I have until May 31st though so I can hopefully get a few crops out. I may even flower the mother in the end since I can't imagine transporting her moving to a new place.


Yuppers, me and my girl live at her house, so I can do anything I want to it (within reason, obviously).

You buying a house when you leave there or moving into a different apartment?

And for those that care, I have an electrician stopping by tomorrow at 4:30 to give me an estimate and maybe get to work if I like what I hear.

Still waiting to hear what a fair price is, but I guess it is what it is - it needs to be done, so he's kinda got my balls in a vise (although he might not know that, so I'll try to bargain him down).

What a journey this is working out to be.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

And now I begin the great breakdown of my shit to move it into our workout room for when the electrician's here tomorrow.

Gonna take down the flowering tent, which was 80% setup, and move all my monitors, nutes, etc. into the house tonight, and try to leave only the veg tent and plants there, then break those down at about 12 or 1 tomorrow so that they're without light for as little as possible.

Let this be a lesson to all of you - make sure your wiring can handle what your mind can dream up before you start growing.


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## tmsculli (Oct 8, 2009)

Haha yea, I know many people run their own electric, but I am no good at it. My dad has taught me construction, motors, engines, cars, fabrication and everything else, but him being an E.E never helped me understand electric. It's just not my thing. 


As far as moving goes, I am a junior in college, so I still have another year to go. I am sick of this house and this landlord though so I will be moving somewhere else. Will most likely be another house though. I will probably keep the mother box as is and then just build a short fat box for the flowering to take place and do it up like that.

Now, after that year finishes...it's real world time. If I get a job right out of school I will buy a house, but if not...gonna have to stop growing while I live with the rents for a bit, it's not worth the hell I would have to pay haha.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Haha yea, I know many people run their own electric, but I am no good at it. My dad has taught me construction, motors, engines, cars, fabrication and everything else, but him being an E.E never helped me understand electric. It's just not my thing.
> 
> 
> As far as moving goes, I am a junior in college, so I still have another year to go. I am sick of this house and this landlord though so I will be moving somewhere else. Will most likely be another house though. I will probably keep the mother box as is and then just build a short fat box for the flowering to take place and do it up like that.
> ...


Yeah, I hear you bro - ten years ago was dreaming of the days when I would have (almost) unlimited capital to really blow my grow out, and now that the time is hear, it's not as easy as I'd thought it was gonna be.

Stupid fucking damned fucking wiring.

End rant now.


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## Twils (Oct 8, 2009)

Damn Bob! That sucks! Especially after all that hard work solo to put those bitches up! At least you will know you have the right and safe amount of power to operate things fully after the electrician leaves!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

Twils said:


> Damn Bob! That sucks! Especially after all that hard work solo to put those bitches up! At least you will know you have the right and safe amount of power to operate things fully after the electrician leaves!
> 
> Burn on!


Yeah, but on the bright side, at least I'm (hopefully) getting it fixed now, and I'll have a little more peace of mind knowing that I'm not gonna burn the house down when I have 4500 watts running 24/7 in the garage.

When you think about it, the timing's as good as it could be, since I haven't started flowering yet.

Not great, but if this is the biggest setback that I encounter whilst growing, I'll be a very successful farmer.


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## Twils (Oct 8, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, but on the bright side, at least I'm (hopefully) getting it fixed now, and I'll have a little more peace of mind knowing that I'm not gonna burn the house down when I have 4500 watts running 24/7 in the garage.
> 
> *When you think about it, the timing's as good as it could be, since I haven't started flowering yet.*
> 
> Not great, but if this is the biggest setback that I encounter whilst growing, I'll be a very successful farmer.


Aint that the truth Bob! Really glad that it was sooner instead of later for you!

And glad that you took it upon your self to make sure it got FIXED and done RIGHT, instead of blowing it off and saying no big deal!!

I've always grown up... Better to be safe than SORRY!

Kudos to you bro!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 8, 2009)

Twils said:


> Aint that the truth Bob! Really glad that it was sooner instead of later for you!
> 
> And glad that you took it upon your self to make sure it got FIXED and done RIGHT, instead of blowing it off and saying no big deal!!
> 
> ...


Thanks man; it's certainly not the best situation ever, but like you said, might as well get it done now - almost done breaking everything down except for my veg tent, will post a pic of my workout room when I'm done - it looks like a hydro store exploded in there.

Just hoping that the guy charges me a reasonable rate and can get me the 60 amps I'm looking for in there - I know for sure that he can do 40, but since I'm actually coming out of pocket, would love 60 to get multiple ACs, water chillers, etc.

If I get 60 amps than it's gonna be fugging on and poppin'.


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## Twils (Oct 8, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Thanks man; it's certainly not the best situation ever, but like you said, might as well get it done now - almost done breaking everything down except for my veg tent, will post a pic of my workout room when I'm done - it looks like a hydro store exploded in there.
> 
> Just hoping that the guy charges me a reasonable rate and can get me the 60 amps I'm looking for in there - I know for sure that he can do 40, but since I'm actually coming out of pocket, would love 60 to get multiple ACs, water chillers, etc.
> 
> If I get 60 amps than it's gonna be fugging on and poppin'.


Now that's the works! Lets hope for 60a!

Burn on!

PS. I just put some pics of day 10 flowering up in my journal!


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## tmsculli (Oct 8, 2009)

mmm 60amps...nom noms. haha

I have an incredibly not-too-hot electric deal going on in my room. I tried to do it right, but the asses made the box completely unaccessible to the other empty amp spots to run the main line in. Take that 60amps and your capital and grow baby grow haha. i can't wait to see your 5 gallon bucket extravaganza, it looks great.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

Thanks man - just got confirmation from IAmStoned in the other thread that 60 amps is definitely doable, so 60 amps is what it's gonna be, no ifs, ands, or buts.

I'm getting excited, dude should be here in about six hours.


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## steelherman (Oct 9, 2009)

Just finished reading your thread,,subscribed for sure. Your well into it and your pocket book but well worth it. I'm am electrician,,,,Your garage is 20 amps, that means the wire is rated for 20 amps. The only way the get 60amps is re-wire the garage and put in #6 wire which will hold 60 amps,,,,but that might raise a red flag,,,#6 wire is fat and not normally ran in a garage. Dont forget a new breaker aswell. Think about this...if you have room in your panel for two more circuits, ask him to add to more 20 amp circuits to the garage,,that way no re-wire. Its easy to do,,,it will be in most cases wall mounted and ran in wire mode and placed in the location you want. Then you just plug and play,,,or add a power strip and play..Hope that helped.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

steelherman said:


> Just finished reading your thread,,subscribed for sure. Your well into it and your pocket book but well worth it. I'm am electrician,,,,Your garage is 20 amps, that means the wire is rated for 20 amps. The only way the get 60amps is re-wire the garage and put in #6 wire which will hold 60 amps,,,,but that might raise a red flag,,,#6 wire is fat and not normally ran in a garage. Dont forget a new breaker aswell. Think about this...if you have room in your panel for two more circuits, ask him to add to more 20 amp circuits to the garage,,that way no re-wire. Its easy to do,,,it will be in most cases wall mounted and ran in wire mode and placed in the location you want. Then you just plug and play,,,or add a power strip and play..Hope that helped.


Firstly, happy to have you along 

Secondly, only have one spare slot in the breaker box, so he's gonna put a 20 amp in there and run it to the garage - not very hard, the breaker box goes right to the attic above and then right to the garage, so not much trouble there.

There's also a dedicated 20 amp circuit going to my shed, which I never use, so I'm going to have him splice that circuit and run that to the garage as well, giving me a total of 60 amps, although 20 are going to be "shared" with the shed.

Want to make sure that I can always turn the light on in the shed if need be, just because my girl's dad goes in there from time to time and I don't want to raise any red flags.

Thanks for your input, though, and keep your fingers crossed - less than six hours until the electrician gets here.


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## steelherman (Oct 9, 2009)

Great sounds like its all planned out. Keep in mind the wire mold or else he is going to want to run it in the walls which means drilling holes and cutting drywall. Its a matter of how you want it done either way good luck and keep us posted.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

steelherman said:


> Great sounds like its all planned out. Keep in mind the wire mold or else he is going to want to run it in the walls which means drilling holes and cutting drywall. Its a matter of how you want it done either way good luck and keep us posted.


Not sure what you mean by "wire mold" - from the breaker box, the wire will go straight up to the attic (already done, no drilling required), and then from the attic to the garage (again, no drilling, already done), so I don't think that he's gonna need any tools at all.

Just splice the wire going to the shed right from the breaker panel, add an additional 20 amp circuit, then run those two wires up to the attic, to the garage, and then run each one to a different outlet (there's like four or five in the garage).

So unless I'm missing something, I think it's a pretty easy few hundred bucks for him for not a whole lot of work.


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## tmsculli (Oct 9, 2009)

It's a hard decision to make man. It almost seems easy enough that you could do it yourself, but when you factor in material costs, and the chance you could fuck it up, it may be worth the bones to have a pro take care of it.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> It's a hard decision to make man. It almost seems easy enough that you could do it yourself, but when you factor in material costs, and the chance you could fuck it up, it may be worth the bones to have a pro take care of it.


Not a hard decision for me, honestly - I'm not an NBA player, but $1K isn't THAT big of a deal to me, so I'd rather it's done correctly and safely.

Plus, getting electrocuted would suck balls.

Also, based on what my girl tells me, the electric in here is kinda shoddy anyways, so I'd like a pro to look things over and give me the "seal of approval" that it's ready to rock 'n roll - that peace of mind at night knowing I'm not going to be burned alive in my sleep is kinda important to me and is well worth whatever this guy rapes my pockets for.


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## tmsculli (Oct 9, 2009)

Well in that case pay on my friend. haha

Gotta love the business world. You're right, it's not the NBA, but it can supply a pretty ballin life hahaha


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Well in that case pay on my friend. haha
> 
> Gotta love the business world. You're right, it's not the NBA, but it can supply a pretty ballin life hahaha


Lol, I don't "want" for much in life, but the hours were pretty brutal - it's a work/life tradeoff.


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## tmsculli (Oct 9, 2009)

Yup I agree. My Dad's friend worked his ass off with 0 social life for 15 years. Sold his company for 20 million, bought a house in Breckenridge colorado, and hasnt worked a day since. He travels the world, has a bunch of houses and basically has the world by the happy pellets. 

I'm hoping to work my ass of for 25 years with a moderate social life and then do whatever the hell I want around 50+ and have fun haha.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

They got everything, look!!!



Oh, wait, now I remember.........



So yeah, that's how you break down two tents and tons of plants - waiting on the electrician now, he should be here in fifteen minutes - both anxious and excited for this to get done.

Wish me luck, ladies and gents


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## Earl (Oct 9, 2009)

Gettin' wired...


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

Earl said:


> Gettin' wired...


Actually, this vodka and ginger ale is getting me more drunk than wired 

This fugger better show, about to call him now just to make sure........


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

Sweet, he just called and said he's five minutes away............butterflies.............gotta try to remember not to smile too much.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

So, phase 1 is completed - wrote the guy a check for $450, said that giving me 60 amps into the garage isn't gonna be a problem at all.

He's coming back at 8:00am Sunday morning, so I'm cautiously optimistic - the older I get the more things I can think of that can go wrong, but I'm hopeful that it's gonna work out.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

BTW, in case anyone was wondering what my plan was to deal with my ladies in the interim - not a damn thing, gonna let them chill under that 100W fluorescent in my workout room for the next 36 hours - methinks they'll be fine, and I'm not setting up that tent again just to take it down in a day.

Now I'm getting kinda excited about all that electricity, holy shite...................that means I can run as much as I can stuff in there................I'm smiling from ear to ear right now.


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## tmsculli (Oct 9, 2009)

Nice so you did get the 60 amps. Well in that case, you may as well treat yourself to that jacuzzi you were thinking about. Just sit there baked, veggin with your girls, it'll be perfect.



I'm fucking ripped right now.
=P


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## Twils (Oct 9, 2009)

Hell yeah Bob! 60A!

and...


WOW your workout room looks like the hydro store EXPLODED in there! 

Glad things are shaping out to be what you wanted! Just gotta gets the power and your ready to roll there!

Looking great as always!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

Twils said:


> Hell yeah Bob! 60A!
> 
> and...
> 
> ...


My man, we are gonna have it on and poppin' as soon as this electrician leaves on Sunday morning.

I'm fugging stoked.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Nice so you did get the 60 amps. Well in that case, you may as well treat yourself to that jacuzzi you were thinking about. Just sit there baked, veggin with your girls, it'll be perfect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, $100 says not as ripped as I am..........gonna take a little booger sugar and then I'm out for the night to who knows where.

G'night all.


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## Twils (Oct 9, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> My man, we are gonna have it on and poppin' as soon as this electrician leaves on Sunday morning.
> 
> I'm fugging stoked.


Hellllllllll Yeahhhhhhhhh! ... Now ...

Have you figured out yet where what is going to plug into where? So you don't have to do the mind f*** Sunday morning in the heat of excitement?!

Be safe n Party like a Rockstar!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

Twils said:


> Hellllllllll Yeahhhhhhhhh! ... Now ...
> 
> Have you figured out yet where what is going to plug into where? So you don't have to do the mind f*** Sunday morning in the heat of excitement?!
> 
> ...


Yuppers, got a dedicated outlet for my "kegerator" and also another dedicated outlet for my "portable AC" for my "man cave".............I'm stoked, might go get two 8x4 tents tomorrow and run two 1000 watters in each of them...........


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## Twils (Oct 9, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yuppers, got a dedicated outlet for my "kegerator" and also another dedicated outlet for my "portable AC" for my "man cave".............I'm stoked, might go get two 8x4 tents tomorrow and run two 1000 watters in each of them...........


......... If you do that I'll take those extra tent's you'll have "laying" around hahaha!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2009)

Twils said:


> ......... If you do that I'll take those extra tent's you'll have "laying" around hahaha!
> 
> Burn on!


If I do, just PM me and I'll give them to you as a gift, my friend.

All right, it's Friday night, I'm getting off the computer - for real this time, g'night all.


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## Twils (Oct 9, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> If I do, just PM me and I'll give them to you as a gift, my friend.
> 
> All right, it's Friday night, I'm getting off the computer - for real this time, g'night all.


Rock on bro! Have a great evening be safe!

Burn on!


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## tmsculli (Oct 9, 2009)

Haha, enjoy your night brother, hopefully I can get out of this damn house shortly as well.


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## Integra21 (Oct 9, 2009)

Subscribed. Like the setup and the grow. Did you buy a regulator yet. If not, *Do Not Order From Kegkits.com!* I made a mistake of ordering and then looking into the company after it haddn't shown up for 3 weeks. Has the best prices on a seemingly good regulator. But he takes forever to ship. I ordered and got it 6 weeks later. But the best part was i did a charge back 2 days before it showed up, got the money back, and then packaged showed up. Thought to myself, cool free regulator, but after 3 weeks the regulator broke. So glad I didnt pay for it. But what you got so far looks pretty good. Should work out real well with thay controller you got.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 10, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Subscribed. Like the setup and the grow. Did you buy a regulator yet. If not, *Do Not Order From Kegkits.com!* I made a mistake of ordering and then looking into the company after it haddn't shown up for 3 weeks. Has the best prices on a seemingly good regulator. But he takes forever to ship. I ordered and got it 6 weeks later. But the best part was i did a charge back 2 days before it showed up, got the money back, and then packaged showed up. Thought to myself, cool free regulator, but after 3 weeks the regulator broke. So glad I didnt pay for it. But what you got so far looks pretty good. Should work out real well with thay controller you got.



Yeah, just gonna grab one from my hydro store, but thanks for the tip.


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## Integra21 (Oct 10, 2009)

Just makin sure no one gets hosed by that guy. Ones at the grow store ore ususally pretty good. If you get a chance, feel free to stop by and check out my grow, link is in my sig.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 10, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Just makin sure no one gets hosed by that guy. Ones at the grow store ore ususally pretty good. If you get a chance, feel free to stop by and check out my grow, link is in my sig.


Checked it out, sick grow.


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## Integra21 (Oct 10, 2009)

So, Where's the update with all the stuff put back and hooked up? The electrician is done right?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 10, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> So, Where's the update with all the stuff put back and hooked up? The electrician is done right?


Nah, he's not coming until 8:00am tomorrow morning - things are on hold until then, shooting to be back setup by noon tomorrow - in the meantime I'm taping up buckets for the new system I'm building for my veg tent - ditching the Rubbermaids and using an interconnected bucket system with a reservoir for everything but my clones.


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## Twils (Oct 10, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Nah, he's not coming until 8:00am tomorrow morning - things are on hold until then, shooting to be back setup by noon tomorrow - in the meantime I'm taping up buckets for the new system I'm building for my veg tent - ditching the Rubbermaids and using an interconnected bucket system with a reservoir for everything but my clones.



Nice! Can't wait to see everything all ready set GO!

Burn on!


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## Integra21 (Oct 11, 2009)

If your taping to block light, I've found black spray paint does a much better job. Generally cheaper and a whole lot less effort to. If it ever gets chipped or scrapped, you can just spray to touch up. Hoping to make your life a little easier.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 11, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> If your taping to block light, I've found black spray paint does a much better job. Generally cheaper and a whole lot less effort to. If it ever gets chipped or scrapped, you can just spray to touch up. Hoping to make your life a little easier.


Lol, funny you should mention that - two or three hours and four buckets later, realized I should've just bitten the bullet and ordered the black buckets from online.

Saved some time by using aluminum foil after the first two buckets took me an hour each, but it's still a mighty pain in the ass.

Got five buckets done now, need to do two more when this electrician leaves - he showed up exactly at 8:00am and is working now.

Hoping to get the live plants back into a setup tent by noon, but that all depends on how long he takes and how long it takes me to put this new system together.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 11, 2009)

Lol, quite glad I negotiated a flat rate with this dude before the job started - he's been huffing and muttering under his breath for the last hour, and is gonna be three hours into it pretty soon.

Was hoping he'd be done by ten, but it is what it is - sitting on RIU all morning because I can't do shit while he's here.


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## Integra21 (Oct 11, 2009)

yeah, flat rates are great. Tape is definitly a pain in the ass. It's never to late to start painting.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 11, 2009)

Yeah, paint would definitely have been the way to go, but at this point I'm gonna finish this veg bucket system in foil and aluminum tape.

Electrician just left, 60 amps are up and running to the garage.

Hoping to have pics up in a few hours of the new setup, but that's obviously dependent on how long it takes me.


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## Integra21 (Oct 11, 2009)

good luck.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 11, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> good luck.


Thanks, this sucks right now...........really, really don't feel like doing this right now - taking forever and these damned black lids aren't really working out for me because they're too damn hard to work with.

Oh well, they'll make nice covers for when I'm not using individual buckets.

Should be done setting the system up in an hour, and then I've gotta set the veg tent up, so pics prolly aren't coming until around dinnertime.


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## Twils (Oct 11, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Thanks, this sucks right now...........really, really don't feel like doing this right now - taking forever and these damned black lids aren't really working out for me because they're too damn hard to work with.
> 
> Oh well, they'll make nice covers for when I'm not using individual buckets.
> 
> Should be done setting the system up in an hour, and then I've gotta set the veg tent up, so pics prolly aren't coming until around dinnertime.



Heck yeah Bob! Time to get the show on the road! 60 Amps of fun now!

Can't wait to see it all up and running again!

Burn on!


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## Twils (Oct 11, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, quite glad I negotiated a flat rate with this dude before the job started - he's been huffing and muttering under his breath for the last hour, and is gonna be three hours into it pretty soon.
> 
> Was hoping he'd be done by ten, but it is what it is - sitting on RIU all morning because I can't do shit while he's here.


*NOT MEANT TO OFFEND ANY ELECTRICIANS OUT THERE*

He's huffing and muttering because when work gets hard and they cant just stand there and do gravy, it makes them for a cranky pants day.. (not to mention they are in your way 90% of the time)

In my trade we refer to electricians as the girls/pussies/etc etc.. Cause when things start to get hard.. they bitch and moan!

Burn on!

Sorry pointless post on my part Bob~


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## Bob Smith (Oct 11, 2009)

Twils said:


> Heck yeah Bob! Time to get the show on the road! 60 Amps of fun now!
> 
> Can't wait to see it all up and running again!
> 
> Burn on!


Yeah, no pics coming tonight, I'm beat like you wouldn't believe and am still not even finished.

Holy crap what a day, 14 straight hours of work and I'm not sure what I have to show for it.

You'll all see tomorrow when I post pics, g'night all.


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## steelherman (Oct 11, 2009)

Well if I was a residential electrician I would be offened but I 'm not since I stay away from homes. Mainly Commerical and industrial. Anyway just stoped in to see how the garage came out and ask you what the rate was?


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## steelherman (Oct 11, 2009)

By the way I just started my journal,,,nothing like yours but check it out and let me know what you think.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 11, 2009)

steelherman said:


> Well if I was a residential electrician I would be offened but I 'm not since I stay away from homes. Mainly Commerical and industrial. Anyway just stoped in to see how the garage came out and ask you what the rate was?


He charged me $450USD to install two additional 20 amp breakers.

I can't sleep now because I'm excited to get back to work on this system I'm building first thing tomorrow morning.


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## Twils (Oct 11, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> He charged me $450USD to install two additional 20 amp breakers.
> 
> I can't sleep now because I'm excited to get back to work on this system I'm building first thing tomorrow morning.


Not bad! I'd be having a hard time sleeping too there if I had some fun toys to play with!

I'm about to put up day 13 since 12/12 switch and my new clone station pictures!

Burn on!


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## tmsculli (Oct 12, 2009)

Get to getting bob!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Get to getting bob!


Lol, I'm on it........just taking my time with setting up this new veg system because I only want to have to do it one time - tired of changing up systems every week, time to stick to something.

Also, with the ambient temps at about 61 in the garage right now, the temperature controller for the exhaust fans is working great - they come on about once every five or ten minutes for a minute and exhaust all the air, and I now have a little fan on in there 24/7.

Pics coming at some point today; I like the changes I've made to the setup so far.

Still got a ways to go.


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## Twils (Oct 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, I'm on it........just taking my time with setting up this new veg system because I only want to have to do it one time - tired of changing up systems every week, time to stick to something.
> 
> Also, with the ambient temps at about 61 in the garage right now, the temperature controller for the exhaust fans is working great - they come on about once every five or ten minutes for a minute and exhaust all the air, and I now have a little fan on in there 24/7.
> 
> ...



Rock on Bob! Get er bangin!

Sounds like things are getting dialed in!

Can't wait for them pics!

Burn on!


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## steelherman (Oct 12, 2009)

$450.... Well you payed for peace of mind right? Well cant wait till your done to see whats new. After my grow I will convert a walkin closet into my new grow room,,, Cant wait till then. keep us all inspired...


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## steelherman (Oct 12, 2009)

Just seen the rep...Thanks Bob. Ur the First,,,how sweet,,now that makes you special.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

steelherman said:


> Just seen the rep...Thanks Bob. Ur the First,,,how sweet,,now that makes you special.


My pleasure dude, stay high.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

steelherman said:


> $450.... Well you payed for peace of mind right? Well cant wait till your done to see whats new. After my grow I will convert a walkin closet into my new grow room,,, Cant wait till then. keep us all inspired...


And because I didn't want to die; but yeah, $450 (which took him four hours) vs. the day or two it would've taken me is way worth it.

I still can't believe how much time and money this DIY system has set me back - probably twice as much money and more time than I'd care to think about vs. just buying a system for a few hundred bucks.

Not even done setting it up yet and I already hate it.

Fuck me.

Although I do like how I setup some new stuff in the tent, so that's at least mitigating the pain from the last couple of days.


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## jsteezy1290 (Oct 12, 2009)

dont worry bro doing stuff yourself is way better then just buying it all together because then you get the jist of how exactly it works


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## Twils (Oct 12, 2009)

It will all be over soon Bob...! And... Then you'll be a very happy man!

Keep your head up! It will all be over soon!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

jsteezy1290 said:


> dont worry bro doing stuff yourself is way better then just buying it all together because then you get the jist of how exactly it works


Yeah, not too worried about it, was just venting a bit.

Came in to make myself a super stiff drink and now it's time to head back to the garage and git er done.


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## Twils (Oct 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, not too worried about it, was just venting a bit.
> 
> Came in to make myself a super stiff drink and now it's time to head back to the garage and git er done.


I like your style!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

So, shockingly enough to me and my girl, I'm actually quite calm about the little setback I'm just experienced.

So, let me say a couple of words before I document my current failure - firstly, I like my new tent setup, so we'll start with the good first.



Firstly, clipped my little digi thermometer to the chain that the light's hanging from (my other thermometer wouldn't stay up with the duct tape and constantly fell down).



Also mounted my 4" intake fan to the ceiling as opposed to have it sitting on the floor outside of the tent - just a more professional and permanent setup, the other way was kinda ghetto with it sitting on s box. Yeah, I'm looking for small victories right now.



Hung a little 6" clip on fan from a bungee for constant airflow in the tent, even when the intake and exhaust fans aren't running.



So you can obviously see that the 4" fan is no longer there, and the wires are much more organized (trust me). The interior of the tent is also much more organized, and no wires are within the "spill zone" of the tent, which is obviously much safer.

Soooo, those are the little victories, now for my chronicles of ineptitude.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

So, here's the bad stuff:

Honestly, I'm too disgusted to even do it on a pic by pic basis, so you can just look at them and notice the idiocy for yourself.

I will say that my idea about using a pond pump to constantly run water through the system will not work with the way I have the system setup - instead of an intake and an outtake hole, I'm just going to have one hole per bucket which will have a "T" fitting, kind of like a sidecar. This should ensure that I can always have the pond pump running and circulating water throughout the system.

Also, my lack of engineering and plumbing and whatever other skills that come into play happened to burn me - I used an 11/16" bit to drill the holes in the bucket, even though the guy's design who I used as a blueprint used a 7/8" bit - I figured if his was good, a smaller, tighter fit was better.

I was wrong.

The size of the hole and the grommet trying to fit into it put unnecessary stress on the plastic and made it so that one or two of the buckets leaked, so I'm going to use a larger drill bit for my newer buckets.

Lesson learned.

I also realized that putting only eight buckets in that tent was not a very efficient use of space, and I think that I could fit 10 buckets in there without much of a problem.

So, heading back to Home Depot tomorrow to get some more buckets, and heading to the hydro store to get some "T" fittings and grommets to make my newest system.
*
As an aside, does anyone know what paints/primers are the best for light-proofing those buckets? Because that was by far the most labor-intensive part of the process, and if I could do that a little quicker, building this new system won't be much of a problem at all.*

Anyways, pics are below of the failure that took me almost two full days - if anyone's got any questions about any of them just let me know.


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## steelherman (Oct 12, 2009)

Try Krylon flat black or Rustolium Flat black.Is this set up going to have a main Res or is it going to recirculate bucket to bucket?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

steelherman said:


> Try Krylon flat black or Rustolium Flat black.Is this set up going to have a main Res or is it going to recirculate bucket to bucket?


It's going to have a rez, which you can see pictured above - it's the bucket with the tubes that are going through the tent's lining (last pic).

As far as the paint goes, I couldn't wait (I'm not a loser or a quitter, so went to Home Depot as my girl cooked enchiladas for dinner), so I picked up three spray cans of Kilz Original Primer-Sealer-Stainbloccker and three cans of Rust-Oleum Ultra Cover flat white spray paint.

I'm assuming and hoping that these will do the job, but would love anyone else's input who's tried this.


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## Integra21 (Oct 12, 2009)

Krylon Fusion for plastic works the best you can do it in a gloss finish. Gloss just makes the paint more durable and scratch resistant. Recomend putting on a light first coat and then 2 fairly heavy coats. You can ususally do 2-3 buckets per can of paint. The cheap .99c a can flat also works fine, you just have to touch up more often.


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## Integra21 (Oct 12, 2009)

you dont really have to prime. Works fine without it. Will save time and money not doing it. With the 3 step coats i said above, as long as its roughly room temp do 1st coat, wait about 30min, do second coat, wait an hour, do 3rd coat. If its in a cold garage 50-65 double those wait times minimum.


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## Twils (Oct 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> So, here's the bad stuff:
> 
> Honestly, I'm too disgusted to even do it on a pic by pic basis, so you can just look at them and notice the idiocy for yourself.
> 
> ...



Damn Bob that sucks man!

Great progress though on getting things, set in a way of being permanent so you don't have to fiddle fart around with it later on down the road!

I had been doing quite a bit of painting for a while on guns and other things I made like DWC Cloner and things like that. I've personally found a touch of love for the Krylon Camouflage Ultra-Flat spray paint, with Fusion (for plastic) technology. This stuff is great! After priming and 2 coats of black she's light proof, VERY Chip resistant (I camo my guns for the seasons or where I'm hunting, and beating them up in the woods looks about the same as the day I painted them) It bonds to plastic without sanding or priming (although I personally prime everything) 

With the Krylon Ultra-Flat Primer spray paint with Fusion technology, and the Krylon Camouflage Ultra-Flat spray paint you would be looking good its not very expensive either, about .50 more I think than normal enamel spray paints.

For your T fittings and stuff light that for plumbing grab it all at home depot, while your getting more buckets.  The T Fittings and grommits should be near the lawn care section, where their sprinkler systems and stuff are. All that stuff seems to be the exact same (I bet they get it at depot and jack the price up at the hydro store (at least the one I go to lol))

Rather get all them set backs out of the way, so in the long run can gogogo!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

Twils said:


> Damn Bob that sucks man!
> 
> Great progress though on getting things, set in a way of being permanent so you don't have to fiddle fart around with it later on down the road!
> 
> ...


A couple of questions - firstly, I only got a white primer and a white flat paint - do I need to use a black spray paint to truly make it light proof, or will three or four coats with only white do the same?

Also, any issues with the paint ever leeching into your water and killing plants? Hadn't thought about that too much, any issues that you've ever had with it?

Thanks for your feedback, bro, it's very much appreciated.


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## Lovin'JK (Oct 12, 2009)

Lovin it, subscribed


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## Bob Smith (Oct 12, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Krylon Fusion for plastic works the best you can do it in a gloss finish. Gloss just makes the paint more durable and scratch resistant. Recomend putting on a light first coat and then 2 fairly heavy coats. You can ususally do 2-3 buckets per can of paint. The cheap .99c a can flat also works fine, you just have to touch up more often.


Integra, are those three coats that you're referring to all white coats? Or do you use a darker color first to ensure that it's light tight?


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## Twils (Oct 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> A couple of questions - firstly, I only got a white primer and a white flat paint - do I need to use a black spray paint to truly make it light proof, or will three or four coats with only white do the same?
> 
> Also, any issues with the paint ever leeching into your water and killing plants? Hadn't thought about that too much, any issues that you've ever had with it?
> 
> Thanks for your feedback, bro, it's very much appreciated.


Generally I've used like a gray primer, then a dark coat, then a white coat or 2 to finish it off.. I'm sure with 3 or 4 good coats of white you should be alright though!

I never really had any problems with the paint leeching through the plastic into the water or anything like that.. I've also spent quite a bit of time with this stuff rubbing on my face and near my mouth and nose and seem to have no ill effect from it (as far as I can tell, some might say different though! haha!)

Keep it going brother!

Burn on!


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## Integra21 (Oct 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Integra, are those three coats that you're referring to all white coats? Or do you use a darker color first to ensure that it's light tight?


I use just black on the res and only spray the outside so there is no chance for chemical leech. I do an additional 2 coats of gloss white on the lids to make them hold up to chemicals better and be reflective. Hope the rebuild goes swiftly. Keep up the good work.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks for the kind words guys; gonna run to Home Depot and grab some black spray paint after I put the first coat of primer on.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 13, 2009)

So, looks like the system won't be up and running until either later on tonight or (more likely) tomorrow, depending on the feedback I get with regards to drying time - the can says that "dry in one hour and fully dry in 24 hours" - how long do you guys let it dry before you start working on it and exposing it to water? An answer to that question would be quite helpful, but in the meantime where I stand is as follows:



Have already put one coat of primer and two coats of black paint (second coat should be dry in about a half hour to an hour), and I could just call it a day and install the "T" fittings (as they're now light-proof), but since it's taken me this long, figure I might as well do it "right" and spray paint both the tops and the bottoms with flat white for more reflectivity to ensure that water temps never get too high. Not sure if I'm gonna do one coat of white or two, as I'm already pretty nauseous from the fumes in that enclosed garage.



This bad boy got delivered today, which is always nice.



This is the Co2/temp/humidity sensor for it.

So, that's about it - gonna check on the buckets in a bit, and if they're dry, start on the coat or two of white paint - in the meantime, if someone could lemme know how long they let the paint dry before it's "safe" to work with them, that'd be awesome.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 13, 2009)

Lovin'JK said:


> Lovin it, subscribed


Thanks for stopping by; hopefully I'll actually have some pics of my plants up soon and not pics of spray-painted buckets.


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## Knickers (Oct 13, 2009)

Leave it for 24hrs IMO. You've waited this long, and puckered/seperated paint looks cheap


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## Integra21 (Oct 13, 2009)

I reccomend letting them sit and dry overnight before any serious handling. Ensures you wont scratch it off while its dry but still soft. Nice controller, I'm saving up for the same one my self. How much did it run you? I found it a a store for $520, was the best price I could find. You're hooking it up to a tank right?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 13, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> I reccomend letting them sit and dry overnight before any serious handling. Ensures you wont scratch it off while its dry but still soft. Nice controller, I'm saving up for the same one my self. How much did it run you? I found it a a store for $520, was the best price I could find. You're hooking it up to a tank right?


Yeah, unfortunately I'm gonna have to let them dry overnight, methinks.

As far as the controller goes, I got mine for $509 delivered off of eBay.

I had to pay $20 more though to make it worth my hydro store's time to order it for me (I never get that stuff delivered or pay with a CC).

Just pay the hydro store cash and they email me when it gets delivered.


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## Integra21 (Oct 13, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, unfortunately I'm gonna have to let them dry overnight, methinks.
> 
> As far as the controller goes, I got mine for $509 delivered off of eBay.
> 
> ...


Never thought to ask them that. They even have ebay stores that will buy things for you. I'll have to check into it.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 13, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Never thought to ask them that. They even have ebay stores that will buy things for you. I'll have to check into it.


I single-handedly keep that store afloat, so I've got some nice leverage.


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## Twils (Oct 13, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> I single-handedly keep that store afloat, so I've got some nice leverage.


Good times right there brother!

like Integra said I'd let them dry 24 hours at least before messing with them, I personally let anything plastic I paint dry for 24-48 hours in a 75-80degree low humidity environment.

Looking great Bob!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 13, 2009)

Twils said:


> Good times right there brother!
> 
> like Integra said I'd let them dry 24 hours at least before messing with them, I personally let anything plastic I paint dry for 24-48 hours in a 75-80degree low humidity environment.
> 
> ...


Yeah, in a perfect world I'd let it dry for two days-ish, but my plants have now been sitting a couple of feet from a single weak fluorescent bulb, so I'm trying to get them back into my veg tent ASAP.

Hoping (and assuming) that overnight will be fine, especially as the paint's on the outside and shouldn't be getting wet.

Oh well, like so many other things, time will tell.


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## Twils (Oct 13, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, in a perfect world I'd let it dry for two days-ish, but my plants have now been sitting a couple of feet from a single weak fluorescent bulb, so I'm trying to get them back into my veg tent ASAP.
> 
> Hoping (and assuming) that overnight will be fine, especially as the paint's on the outside and shouldn't be getting wet.
> 
> Oh well, like so many other things, time will tell.


I hear ya there Bob! Maybe put them next to a heater (but not too close) over night, would help a LOT! With the Krylon paint I've noticed after about 1 week full dry, this sh*t is hard to chip and pretty durable!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Twils said:


> I hear ya there Bob! Maybe put them next to a heater (but not too close) over night, would help a LOT! With the Krylon paint I've noticed after about 1 week full dry, this sh*t is hard to chip and pretty durable!
> 
> Burn on!


Yeah, in hindsight a heater would've been a great call...............man, working with paint sucks, I'd rather tape up all the buckets with aluminum tape than paint.

This sucks.


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, in hindsight a heater would've been a great call...............man, working with paint sucks, I'd rather tape up all the buckets with aluminum tape than paint.
> 
> This sucks.



I'm having one of those nights too.... Been up all night working on this new drip system for my mama's.. needless to say its a total FAILURE, I'll be heading back to wally world and home depot this morning to return everything 

Burn on brother~


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Twils said:


> I'm having one of those nights too.... Been up all night working on this new drip system for my mama's.. needless to say its a total FAILURE, I'll be heading back to wally world and home depot this morning to return everything
> 
> Burn on brother~


Lol, only one failure? C'mon, that's nothing ...........I just finished my second complete failure; well not complete, as the system works and is actually pretty sick, if I do say so myself - just a couple of leaky buckets stopping it from being finished.

Did have a thought, though - gonna seal each grommet with aquarium sealant this third time (and every time going forward, if it works) - figure that SHOULD stop the leaks.

I'll post the pics of my newest system shortly, and am going to head to Pet Smart at some point today to grab some aquarium sealant (hopefully they have a quicky-dry variety).

Damn, this shit is really, really testing my patience.

Too far along to quit now, although this must be close to the flattest learning curve in the history of DIY systems.


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, only one failure? C'mon, that's nothing ...........I just finished my second complete failure; well not complete, as the system works and is actually pretty sick, if I do say so myself - just a couple of leaky buckets stopping it from being finished.
> 
> Did have a thought, though - gonna seal each grommet with aquarium sealant this third time (and every time going forward, if it works) - figure that SHOULD stop the leaks.
> 
> ...


Ok bro you win!

Can't wait to see the new system set up!

Great idea with the aquarium sealant, sounds like it should work like a charm!

Just wait until your finished though, its going to feel so good, and you can sit back and look at it and be like fuck yeah!!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Gonna run to Wal-Mart and grab about ten bottles of this (as well as TP and paper towels, in case anyone was wondering):

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3635110&sourceid=1500000000000003260550&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=3635110#ProductDetail


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Gonna run to Wal-Mart and grab about ten bottles of this (as well as TP and paper towels, in case anyone was wondering):
> 
> http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=3635110&sourceid=1500000000000003260550&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=3635110#ProductDetail


Damn nice find!!! I Looked all over the place at my Wal-Mart last night and could never find shit like that, so I ended up getting DAP Clear silicone caulking but it say's not for aquarium use... It's making me thing I shouldn't use it for my girls.

I'll have to post some pictures of my latest project later on today..

By the way did you see the TKO in my journal?

Nice work, keep it up!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Twils said:


> Ok bro you win!
> 
> Can't wait to see the new system set up!
> 
> ...


You ain't lying..............if I win this battle, God-willing, it will be one of the sweeter victories I've had in recent memory.........what a test and these leaky buckets have proven to be worthy adversaries, to say the least.

Anyways, here's a couple of pics of what I did today.

You can't really see a whole lot of detail, but if anyone's got any questions, just lemme know - there's only nine buckets in there as opposed to the ten that are going to be in there because the bubble cloner is going to be on its own nute schedule, so it won't be hooked up to the system.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Twils said:


> Damn nice find!!! I Looked all over the place at my Wal-Mart last night and could never find shit like that, so I ended up getting DAP Clear silicone caulking but it say's not for aquarium use... It's making me thing I shouldn't use it for my girls.
> 
> I'll have to post some pictures of my latest project later on today..
> 
> ...


I didn't, unfortunately - I've been so busy trying to put this together (literally the last four days straight) that I don't have much time for anything else (like raking leaves, which I need to get on ASAP). 

Trust me, as soon as this is all figured out and up and running, I'll be back on the computer for hours a day again.


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> You ain't lying..............if I win this battle, God-willing, it will be one of the sweeter victories I've had in recent memory.........what a test and these leaky buckets have proven to be worthy adversaries, to say the least.
> 
> Anyways, here's a couple of pics of what I did today.
> 
> ...


That is looking pretty sick I do have to say! VERY nice job!

My current project is a 5 Gallon Deep water culture Bucket for just 1 plant to put in my flower room to do some comparison vs my soil grows on taste, look, yield, etc etc...

I'm just not sure how to set up 1 bucket for the plant, and 1 bucket as a reservoir.

Burn on!


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> I didn't, unfortunately - I've been so busy trying to put this together (literally the last four days straight) that I don't have much time for anything else (like raking leaves, which I need to get on ASAP).
> 
> Trust me, as soon as this is all figured out and up and running, I'll be back on the computer for hours a day again.


Haha I hear ya. Speaking of raking leaves I should probably go do that before the next thunderstorm rolls in

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Twils said:


> That is looking pretty sick I do have to say! VERY nice job!
> 
> My current project is a 5 Gallon Deep water culture Bucket for just 1 plant to put in my flower room to do some comparison vs my soil grows on taste, look, yield, etc etc...
> 
> ...


Firstly, the yield is gonna blow away your soil grows, that's a no-brainer.

Secondly, where are you running into issues with the connection? I'll take a look in your journal and see what I could possibly do to offer some assistance - I'm becoming somewhat of an expert in failed systems


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## Integra21 (Oct 14, 2009)

Keep on truckin Bob. Your getting there. Progress keeps moving along. Did you really have that big of a problem with the painting. The only frusstration thing I ever encountered was a black and white pointer finger. Otherwise 10 min of spraying followed by an hour of free time to do other things, then repeat. What complicatins did you run into?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Keep on truckin Bob. Your getting there. Progress keeps moving along. Did you really have that big of a problem with the painting. The only frusstration thing I ever encountered was a black and white pointer finger. Otherwise 10 min of spraying followed by an hour of free time to do other things, then repeat. What complicatins did you run into?


Lol, here goes my complaints:

Fifteen cans of spray paint in a sealed one-car garage isn't too healthy for me, methinks (that's my idiocy, but I can't really open up the garage, so that's a bad thing).

Thought it'd be cheaper to use paint as opposed to aluminum tape, but it was $75 for the paint, which would've bought me four rolls of tape, which is easily enough to get the job done.

I hate that I'm worried about the paint leeching into my water supply somehow.

I hate how my right forearm and hand were sore all last night from holding the cans and, more specifically, holding down that painful button.

Lol, now aren't you glad you asked? 

Needless to say, I'm going to be using aluminum tape in the future.


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## Integra21 (Oct 14, 2009)

Sorry for all the pain and trouble. How many cans did you use? It shouldnt have cost more than $25-$40 to paint those buckets. If you ever give it another go, crack the garage door a foot, place a fan blowing out, and grab one of those $3 click on triggers that fit on top of the paint can and possible wear a dust mask. These simple steps would have made it a breeze. But I fear you hate it to much to try again. As far as leeching goes, as long as your paint is on the outside of the buckets, you have no worries.


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## Integra21 (Oct 14, 2009)

Also forgot. There is no need to paint the buckets themselves white. Only black is needed. You only should throw the coat of white on the lids. That alone would have cut your work and expense in half.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Sorry for all the pain and trouble. How many cans did you use? It shouldnt have cost more than $25-$40 to paint those buckets. If you ever give it another go, crack the garage door a foot, place a fan blowing out, and grab one of those $3 click on triggers that fit on top of the paint can and possible wear a dust mask. These simple steps would have made it a breeze. But I fear you hate it to much to try again. As far as leeching goes, as long as your paint is on the outside of the buckets, you have no worries.


Yeah, I assume that paint's the way to go for anyone who's not a moron like me, but I'm thinking I'm gonna stick with taping them - just easier and cleaner (for me, anyways).


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Also forgot. There is no need to paint the buckets themselves white. Only black is needed. You only should throw the coat of white on the lids. That alone would have cut your work and expense in half.


Yeah, I knew I could've gotten by doing just the lids, but figured as long as I was doing it that I should do it right - try to have everything be as reflective as possible in my tent, and also was worried about the black buckets absorbing too much heat and warming up my water, unnecessarily.

Anyways, time to go take apart the newest system and use some aquarium sealant on all the fittings.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

So I believe I figured out the issue, for what it's worth...........don't wanna jinx myself, but just got back from Home Depot with some tape and buckets (not waiting a day for the aquarium sealant to set).

Wish me luck, hope to have pics up in a bit if I'm successful.


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## super2200 (Oct 14, 2009)

Home depot has the buckets on sale for 2.48 still!! I have so many damn buckets now lol. Great price


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

super2200 said:


> Home depot has the buckets on sale for 2.48 still!! I have so many damn buckets now lol. Great price


I must have about 40 at this point.

At least.


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Firstly, the yield is gonna blow away your soil grows, that's a no-brainer.
> 
> Secondly, where are you running into issues with the connection? I'll take a look in your journal and see what I could possibly do to offer some assistance - I'm becoming somewhat of an expert in failed systems


I was expecting to be more pleased with the DWC vs Soil, Just want to see the results in person straight up. lol.

I haven't started on my DWC Bucket yet, last night was my utterly FAILED attempt at a DIY Drip system for my mama's..

Glad things are shaping up! Keep it rocking brother!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Twils said:


> I was expecting to be more pleased with the DWC vs Soil, Just want to see the results in person straight up. lol.
> 
> I haven't started on my DWC Bucket yet, last night was my utterly FAILED attempt at a DIY Drip system for my mama's..
> 
> ...


Yeah, gonna check it again in a little, but so far no leaks - not working exactly like I'd planned, but it's dry so far, so that's a plus.

If it's still dry as of tomorrow I'll post some pics with some notes.


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, gonna check it again in a little, but so far no leaks - not working exactly like I'd planned, but it's dry so far, so that's a plus.
> 
> If it's still dry as of tomorrow I'll post some pics with some notes.



Right on. No leaks is a good thing!

Glad those tents have a waterproof mat for them eh? hehe

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 14, 2009)

Twils said:


> Right on. No leaks is a good thing!
> 
> Glad those tents have a waterproof mat for them eh? hehe
> 
> Burn on!


Yeah, found a leak, but I know which bucket it is (one of the older painted ones where I didn't realize what I was doing wrong), so that needs to come out.

In the meantime, I've decided to change up the system again and go with more of what Train1 designed.

Yup, changing it again.

Seriously.

But it shouldn't take too long, just making it a true passive system, as I can't seem to get the circulating system to work - gonna connect each bucket to the rez as opposed to connected to each other, and it's only a matter of drilling the rez a few more times.

In case anyone at home is trying to keep score, I've tried to upgrade Train1's original plans twice and am now copying his system exactly.

Humbling - demeaning: causing awareness of your shortcomings; "golf is a humbling game"


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## Twils (Oct 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, found a leak, but I know which bucket it is (one of the older painted ones where I didn't realize what I was doing wrong), so that needs to come out.
> 
> In the meantime, I've decided to change up the system again and go with more of what Train1 designed.
> 
> ...


 Wait don't do that you'll hurt your head! put a helmet on first

Well at least you know that it is going to work, good luck with a swift and smooth change over!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 15, 2009)

Twils said:


> Wait don't do that you'll hurt your head! put a helmet on first
> 
> Well at least you know that it is going to work, good luck with a swift and smooth change over!
> 
> Burn on!


Lol, definitely a bit of a kick in the nads, but nothing too bad - gonna do some more research for a bit just to make sure about the route I'm going this time, but in any event, I'd like to be finished by tonight.

This is getting ridiculous.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 15, 2009)

I lied, not gonna be finished tonight.

Tried Train1's system and I've even got a leak or two with that.

I wish I could put into words my frustration level right now.

Anyways, need to find something that will quickly and easily fix the occasional leaky bucket - I originally thought of some kind of plumber's putty, but if anyone has any other ideas for a quick and permanent solution to a dripping bucket, I'm all ears.

Edit: something like this - http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgf/R-100648874/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## Twils (Oct 15, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> I lied, not gonna be finished tonight.
> 
> Tried Train1's system and I've even got a leak or two with that.
> 
> ...


Hot glue my brother! 

I'm sorry about your frustrations, I'm right up there now trying to figure out how to build a 5 gallon dwc bucket with remote reservoir.

I'd like it to be recirculating but keep over flowing the grow bucket, if its passive will it draw enough water by gravity alone to the grow bucket? 

Where and how do you adjust your PH? In the passive reservoir or grow bucket it self or both?

IS this the same thing you were trying to do? 

Burn on!


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## tmsculli (Oct 16, 2009)

Bob, the shit is just chillin below the fan for you huh? You should get a shovel and spread that shit out before it hits the fan haha. Just Kidding brother, shit happens. Plus, if you are having all of this shit happen now, you should be good to go later. I went through 3 tubs trying t make all my shit work, I had leaks everywhere haha. It happens


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## Bob Smith (Oct 16, 2009)

Twils said:


> Hot glue my brother!
> 
> I'm sorry about your frustrations, I'm right up there now trying to figure out how to build a 5 gallon dwc bucket with remote reservoir.
> 
> ...


Yeah, you think hot glue will work? Bought a gun but haven't used it yet, plus emptying out the buckets each time there's a leak is a fugging headache.

Bought some plumber's putty from Home Depot, hoping it'll do the job.

Also, from now on when I make these systems, I'm gonna reinforce the grommets with some clear plumber's epoxy which should ensure no leakage going forward.

And yeah, what you're doing is EXACTLY the frustration that I had - basically your return hose needs to be much larger than your output hose (from the rez), or you'll overflow your grow buckets every time because of the power of the pump, even with a little 185GPH guy that I've been experimenting with.

And based on that dude Train1 whose system I'm copying, gravity will indeed feed the bucket enough, and adjusting the pH is the same as it ever was, but just in smaller increments, and only in the reservoir, as the grow bucket will simply take water from the rez when it drinks its "own" water.

Lemme know if that's clear or if I'm rambling again.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 16, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Bob, the shit is just chillin below the fan for you huh? You should get a shovel and spread that shit out before it hits the fan haha. Just Kidding brother, shit happens. Plus, if you are having all of this shit happen now, you should be good to go later. I went through 3 tubs trying t make all my shit work, I had leaks everywhere haha. It happens


Yeah, I'm clearly making "progress", but I would've liked a steeper learning curve, that's for sure.

Slow and steady wins the race, though - if it was easy, everyone would do it.

Anyways, I appreciate the kind words from both of you, sometimes we all need a little pick-me-up.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 16, 2009)

So, plumber's putty didn't work - heading back to Home Depot to get the epoxy, take all the buckets apart, and put them all back together again.

I'm saying a prayer (and I'm not even religious) that this is the last time.


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## Integra21 (Oct 16, 2009)

that's some luck you got. What did you use to drill the holes again? I only drilled 2 buckets, used a 7/8th's drill bit, making sure the hole was clean(round) and removed all the rough edges with my finger nail, put in grommet and valve, and filled. 1 leaked a very small amount, the other not at all. Came back to see how bad the leak was after an hour, and the leak had stopped. I think you have to use a 7/8 bit and get a clean hole for it to seal properly. Hopefully the epoxy helps. Good luck Bob, I think I want to see this setup up and running almost as much as you. Just remember, patience is just about the most important thing when it comes to growing good herb.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 16, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> that's some luck you got. What did you use to drill the holes again? I only drilled 2 buckets, used a 7/8th's drill bit, making sure the hole was clean(round) and removed all the rough edges with my finger nail, put in grommet and valve, and filled. 1 leaked a very small amount, the other not at all. Came back to see how bad the leak was after an hour, and the leak had stopped. I think you have to use a 7/8 bit and get a clean hole for it to seal properly. Hopefully the epoxy helps. Good luck Bob, I think I want to see this setup up and running almost as much as you. Just remember, patience is just about the most important thing when it comes to growing good herb.


Yuppers, sounds like we used the exact same method - just hard to get round holes with that 3/4" bit.

Hopefully this epoxy will do the trick; most of the buckets are fine, but a chain's only as strong as its weakest link, unfortunately.

Did you have any issues getting a clean, round hole? Every fourth or fifth one it almost feels like I'm hitting a "knot" in the plastic, similar to drilling/nailing into a knot in wood.


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## Integra21 (Oct 16, 2009)

Are you using a 3/4? I found it was easiest to get an actual round 7/8 drill bit(not paddle) and make a small starter hole. Then it was all about slow sppen and light pressure. Took an average of 1-2min to make the actual hole. As long as your moving slow and stop if the bit really bites in hard, it should go fairly smooth. I also took a bucket and turned it into swiss cheese figuring out the best way for me to make good holes. The guys at the grow shop said over and over how important it is to make the holes perfect.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 16, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Are you using a 3/4? I found it was easiest to get an actual round 7/8 drill bit(not paddle) and make a small starter hole. Then it was all about slow sppen and light pressure. Took an average of 1-2min to make the actual hole. As long as your moving slow and stop if the bit really bites in hard, it should go fairly smooth. I also took a bucket and turned it into swiss cheese figuring out the best way for me to make good holes. The guys at the grow shop said over and over how important it is to make the holes perfect.


I'm actually using a 3/4" wood bit (because the round bit I bought at Home Depot wouldn't fit into my drill), but I think that I have good and bad news.

The good news is that my buckets should be leak-proof right now because I'm pretty sure the grommet and hole issues are fixed, but the bad news is that they're still leaking, and I'M PRETTY FUCKING SURE IT'S BECAUSE THESE PARTS FROM NGW AREN'T WATERTIGHT!!!!!

Holy fucking shit...........all that money and time, and now I see that the 1/2" hose doesn't fit very well onto the elbows, barbs, or "T"s, and can clearly see water coming from those connections and not the holes in the buckets - I'm at a loss right now, gonna do some investigating on the Internet and see if anyone else has had this problem, but then I need to find some new fittings, and my store only carries NGW.

Fuck me, but more importantly, fuck NGW.


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## 49ers49 (Oct 16, 2009)

dude i been reading your post all day.i know your frustration it took me 3 weeks to set up my room the way i wanted to.got it all dialed or so i thought only to reliize when i cut the hole thru my flood table and my support table and installed the flood thing it was off centered .damn bro then when i almost got the fitting off iaccidentally cracked my table.i wanted to cry .long story short every thing is sweet.and i gained valuable knowledge on set up and what potential problems to avoid next time .im sure your experience will be no different its obvious you are no quitter.good luck.


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## Twils (Oct 16, 2009)

Damn Bob that really blows...

I finally got my recirculating, remote reservoir system to work last night without over flowing, I'll set it back up tonight and take some pictures

I found that using a 3/4" wood drill bit, starting it off really slow and then letting the claws basically shave everything away, keep your drill at a medium speed and apply a slow steady light pressure, I then took some 220 grit sand paper and smoothed my holes out..

bought some 1/2" barbed threaded connectors, and 1/2" threaded female connector. The threads on the 1/2" Barbed connectors actually thread measure meant is slightly smaller than 3/4". Wrapped the threads in teflon plumbers tape, then threaded the barbed connector to the inside of the bucket. this smaller connection has been leak proof without the use of any caulk, or sealant of any kind, but for safety I hot glued the out side of the connection to the out side of the bucket.

Ran a 3/8" tube from the exhaust of the pump where it was capped off and "T" fitting was placed in the end, where 2: 1/4" feeder tubes feed the grow bucket

Grow bucket has a over flow tube so when the pump fills up the grow bucket too much it returns to the res.

I really think the rubber shit from the hydro shops are a waste, for 28-49 cents you can get every connector you need from the plumbing section in home depot.

I'll make a parts list and post a detailed how to on how I did mine, maybe it will work for you!

Keep your head up! It will all work out bro!

Burn on!


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## Integra21 (Oct 16, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> I'm actually using a 3/4" wood bit (because the round bit I bought at Home Depot wouldn't fit into my drill), but I think that I have good and bad news.
> 
> The good news is that my buckets should be leak-proof right now because I'm pretty sure the grommet and hole issues are fixed, but the bad news is that they're still leaking, and I'M PRETTY FUCKING SURE IT'S BECAUSE THESE PARTS FROM NGW AREN'T WATERTIGHT!!!!!
> 
> ...


For the drill bit, they make reduced shank bits to fit into standard size drills, thats what I got. as far as the leaky hoses, thats an easy fix. You jus have to go down one size on the inner diameter. I have 1/2 fittings and when I put 1/2 inch tubing on it leaked like a bitch. Just switch to 3/8" inner diameter tubing and you should be fine.


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## tmsculli (Oct 17, 2009)

Dang Bob, it happens to everyone though man. Like I said before, took me a million times before I got rid of all my leaks. Just keep working at it, once you get it right, you never have to deal with it again.
I would say keep trusting yourself and shop at the depot instead of hydro shops. You can use your imagination in Home Depot, not in a hydro shop where the guy tells you this is what I have that you need and rings it up. Get my drift? We are all intelligent, creative, diyers and you can definitely dig through the depot and make it work. My only words of wisdom is don't fuck with sealants. They just won't work, plain and simple haha.

Twils, your system sounds awesome, I am really excited to see pictures and a how-to for it.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Twils said:


> Damn Bob that really blows...
> 
> I finally got my recirculating, remote reservoir system to work last night without over flowing, I'll set it back up tonight and take some pictures
> 
> ...


Yeah, the way you've got the recirculating bucket setup is what would be ideal for me, but I believe that's gonna be too much of a space eater for my little 4x4 tent.

We'll see though, need to do some more experiments.

Got my veg tent setup - not what I'd envisioned, but should be more than enough to get the job done.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> For the drill bit, they make reduced shank bits to fit into standard size drills, thats what I got. as far as the leaky hoses, thats an easy fix. You jus have to go down one size on the inner diameter. I have 1/2 fittings and when I put 1/2 inch tubing on it leaked like a bitch. Just switch to 3/8" inner diameter tubing and you should be fine.


Yeah, that sounds like the move; I just kinda expected that the fittings and hose would fit perfectly; on that note, anyone know where to get 3/8" black tubing besides the Internet? Would that be at any kind of a Home Depot-ish shop?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Dang Bob, it happens to everyone though man. Like I said before, took me a million times before I got rid of all my leaks. Just keep working at it, once you get it right, you never have to deal with it again.
> I would say keep trusting yourself and shop at the depot instead of hydro shops. You can use your imagination in Home Depot, not in a hydro shop where the guy tells you this is what I have that you need and rings it up. Get my drift? We are all intelligent, creative, diyers and you can definitely dig through the depot and make it work. My only words of wisdom is don't fuck with sealants. They just won't work, plain and simple haha.
> 
> Twils, your system sounds awesome, I am really excited to see pictures and a how-to for it.


Lol..........I may be intelligent, but I'm certainly not creative or a DIY'er (99.99% of the time).

Anywho, finally got something up and running so my ladies can have some real light and nutes, pics are attached - pretty simple setup, the two buckets with the all white lids are my reservoirs, and the other six buckets are for plants (one has a black cover on it because I thinned out the herd this morning and got rid of all the stragglers that I'd been harboring).

The mama under the light is my more indica dominant pheno from that bagseed, and in the upper right hand corner is the more sativa dominant pheno.

The seedlings are the Super Skunk, as they're doing the best out of the three strains - we'll see though, they were closest to the light in my old setup, so they're further out now with the Bubblelicious and NYPD getting the most light.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

BTW, I'm nowhere near finished with working on this veg tent - this is only a temporary fix, as all that wasted space directly under the light bothers the shit out of me.

Just needed to get them back and under some lights, but I'm by no means done with designing the system that I want for in there (and, hopefully, in my flowering tents as well).

FYI, going to try and root some clones in the bucket withe the black lid over top - gonna see if the clones can root in the fairly high PPM solution (~1000PPM) that the other plants veg in - I'm fairly certain that they can and will love it, but we'll see.


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## Twils (Oct 17, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, that sounds like the move; I just kinda expected that the fittings and hose would fit perfectly; on that note, anyone know where to get 3/8" black tubing besides the Internet? Would that be at any kind of a Home Depot-ish shop?


Black tubing is in the drip irrigation isle, next to the sprinkler heads at home depot.

Vinyl tubing is near the freezer repair stuff, anything under 1"ID is sold in 10' lengths, over 1"ID in 1' lengths.

I'd suggest using half inch tubing from the Drip Irrigation stuff,

The plumbing isle will have all the plastic fittings you'll need, barbed connectors, couplings (fipt x fipt) , shut off valves and anything else you might need.

I'll take some pictures when I get my laundry room back from the wife!

Burn on!


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## Twils (Oct 17, 2009)

Your ladies are looking like they are enjoying that light!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Wow, Home Depot really has all that shite?

Might need to actually look around a little more there.....................good info man, thanks


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Twils said:


> Your ladies are looking like they are enjoying that light!


That's the idea; they were under a small 26W fluorescent bulb for a solid week with almost no nutes, so they should be liking that large meal and solid light output.

They all have a touch of yellowing in the new growth from light deficiency, but that should be gone within a day or two (not too worried about it).


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## Twils (Oct 17, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Wow, Home Depot really has all that shite?
> 
> Might need to actually look around a little more there.....................good info man, thanks


Yep sure do! I managed to pick up .. If I remember correctly..
*Prices might be higher if you live in a state that has sales tax!*
$5.99: 50' black 1/2 drip tubing
$0.28 x 15: Plastic fittings (plumbing isle)
$0.49 x 6: Couplings (fipt x fipt)
$1.29 x 2: 1/2" barbed x threaded fitting
$7.99: 10' vinyl 1/2ID tubing
$6.99: 10' vinyl 3/8ID tubing

missing a few things but you get the drift.. I went to the hydro shop to pick up a grommet and one of the $0.28 1/2" barbed connectors... Shit was almost 2.50, got it at the depot for well, 28 cents.

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Twils said:


> Yep sure do! I managed to pick up .. If I remember correctly..
> *Prices might be higher if you live in a state that has sales tax!*
> $5.99: 50' black 1/2 drip tubing
> $0.28 x 15: Plastic fittings (plumbing isle)
> ...


Holy shit.

Wow, I really, really need to do some more fishing around Home Depot.

Good looking out, bro.


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## Twils (Oct 17, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Holy shit.
> 
> Wow, I really, really need to do some more fishing around Home Depot.
> 
> Good looking out, bro.



No prob! Trying to save a buck or two at this point (yet still keep my self busy)

Burn on!


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## Integra21 (Oct 17, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, that sounds like the move; I just kinda expected that the fittings and hose would fit perfectly; on that note, anyone know where to get 3/8" black tubing besides the Internet? Would that be at any kind of a Home Depot-ish shop?


Home depot is where i got mine, also have it a lowes and menards. Just look in the plumbing section. they have all different sizes of clear and black. bring a fitting with you to ensure a snug fit.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Home depot is where i got mine, also have it a lowes and menards. Just look in the plumbing section. they have all different sizes of clear and black. bring a fitting with you to ensure a snug fit.


Thanks; still can't believe they have all that stuff at Home Depot.


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## Integra21 (Oct 17, 2009)

well, there are other uses for the stuff besides hydro setup(sprinkler systems, ro systems, ect)


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

49ers49 said:


> dude i been reading your post all day.i know your frustration it took me 3 weeks to set up my room the way i wanted to.got it all dialed or so i thought only to reliize when i cut the hole thru my flood table and my support table and installed the flood thing it was off centered .damn bro then when i almost got the fitting off iaccidentally cracked my table.i wanted to cry .long story short every thing is sweet.and i gained valuable knowledge on set up and what potential problems to avoid next time .im sure your experience will be no different its obvious you are no quitter.good luck.


Nice to have you along, dude, and I'm sorry about my long-windedness with this thread - as I'm sure you're aware, ran into some "technical difficulties" for the past week.

BTW, tell Frank Gore to start producing for my fantasy squad or he's benched (after his bye this week, obviously).


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## Twils (Oct 17, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> well, there are other uses for the stuff besides hydro setup(sprinkler systems, ro systems, ect)


That's how I had to look at it, Hydro set up is basically *plumbing* 2 or more items together. 

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Twils said:


> Damn Bob that really blows...
> 
> I finally got my recirculating, remote reservoir system to work last night without over flowing, I'll set it back up tonight and take some pictures
> 
> ...


Really, really, really wanna see this tutorial, kiddo - let's make it happen.

Looking for ideas right now, and step one is ensuring that anything I do is watertight, so then I can simply focus on the function of the system.

Sounds like these threaded connectors might be just what I need.

FYI, there's a thread titled "RDWC" something or other that's got some good for thought, if you're interested.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 17, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> well, there are other uses for the stuff besides hydro setup(sprinkler systems, ro systems, ect)


Lol, who would ever make one of those sytems? 

What a waste of time that would be..........


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## 49ers49 (Oct 19, 2009)

dude where ya been?need a update .i myself am going to stab myself and end it my girls have been yellowing and looking a lil rusty .flushed 3 days with no real improvement is it possible to give em too much sea kelp?i run house of garden and i used algen extract only to find out its the new one 5 times more powerfull .no new instructions and i also used maxi crop on top of it.hoping they will bounce back .is green crack sensitive?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 19, 2009)

49ers49 said:


> dude where ya been?need a update .i myself am going to stab myself and end it my girls have been yellowing and looking a lil rusty .flushed 3 days with no real improvement is it possible to give em too much sea kelp?i run house of garden and i used algen extract only to find out its the new one 5 times more powerfull .no new instructions and i also used maxi crop on top of it.hoping they will bounce back .is green crack sensitive?


I've been laid up on the couch all day, sick as a dog.

Nothing really new to report except that I was so high when I checked on my ladies that I added pH up instead of down and had to deal with that whole fiasco for about an hour - as far as Green Crack goes, I've never grown it, so I can't comment, unfortunately.

Also haven't broken the seal on any of my House and Garden nutes, so again I must apologize for not being able to help you.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 19, 2009)

However, the goal is to get all my shit back in the garage and try to get my flowering tent setup by tomorrow afternoon, so there should be some pics up tomorrow evening.


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## Twils (Oct 19, 2009)

Hope you feel better Bob!

I ran out of tape last night while taking pics for the tutorial, gotta pick some up and will have it up soon!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 20, 2009)

Twils said:


> Hope you feel better Bob!
> 
> I ran out of tape last night while taking pics for the tutorial, gotta pick some up and will have it up soon!
> 
> Burn on!


Awesome kid, looking forward to that - been brainstorming on setups for my flowering tent, need to get some more ideas.

Anyways, still feel like shit but am focused on getting my workout room back - will take a pic or two later, but not much to report from the veg tent - just that the Bubblelicious are doing much worse then either the Super Skunk or NYPD - gonna do some research and see if that might just be a finicky strain.


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## Integra21 (Oct 20, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Awesome kid, looking forward to that - been brainstorming on setups for my flowering tent, need to get some more ideas.
> 
> Anyways, still feel like shit but am focused on getting my workout room back - will take a pic or two later, but not much to report from the veg tent - just that the Bubblelicious are doing much worse then either the Super Skunk or NYPD - gonna do some research and see if that might just be a finicky strain.


 Some strains are pickier than others and may have different nutrient requirements. What's the bubblelicios doing? Put up some pics and maybe we can help.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 20, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Some strains are pickier than others and may have different nutrient requirements. What's the bubblelicios doing? Put up some pics and maybe we can help.


Yeah, I will later on, although my camera ain't that great - basically yellowing, although I found some "browning" on one of them where the new growth should be - did some research, and apparently BL is fairly susceptible to fungal infections, so I went ahead and sprayed my whole veg tent with a fungicide/insecticide/miticide that I got from Wal-Mart (shockingly enough, all organic).

When I sprayed my outdoor veggies with that they loved it, and I'm guessing my indoor veggies will as well - it really seems to be a "cure-all" for whatever ails plants.

Also still battling root rot (from the week of no light), so went ahead and added 50mL of H2O2 to each bucket.

Need to straighten up this pigsty of a house and then pics will be coming.


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## Integra21 (Oct 20, 2009)

ok. I'll check in later.


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## tmsculli (Oct 20, 2009)

I can't wait to see pictures of this assembled arsenal of cannabis growing power. haha


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## Bob Smith (Oct 20, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> I can't wait to see pictures of this assembled arsenal of cannabis growing power. haha


Soon enough, still lugging shit outta my workout room and back into the garage.

Man I wish I could pay somebody to do this for me.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 20, 2009)

All right, so this is where we stand, as best as I can tell:

Right now still up in the air about what to do for flowering, number of plants to flower, the whole nine - thinking 16 buckets in there might not work with the plumbing and necessary air pumps, so wondering if I should give my 4x4 E&F tray a try.

Really, really indecisive about this whole thing, but I'm gonna try to make a test 4 bucket system (came to the conclusion that if I do 16 buckets, it's going to be four buckets to each rez, for four reservoirs). So putting that together will hopefully shine some light on the feasibility of it all.

Also not sure about which mom to use, because my more sativa pheno is clearly the hardier of the two, and in the shower a minute ago, I remembered that my indica pheno had a leaf mutation as a little girl - need to do some research into exactly how big of a deal this is.

If someone were to hold a gun to my head right now, I'd say I'm probably gonna take 10 clones off of each and pick the best 16 out of 20, and flower those, hopefully starting in 2-3 weeks.

So that's that; also unsure about the route I should take for selecting mamas out of the three strains that I bought - originally was going to wait until they started showing preflowers and then flower the ladies out, testing the bud for potency, yield, etc., but then was thinking maybe I'll just flower all of them with my bagseed in a couple of weeks and deal with the lack of efficiency that pulling the males would entail.

Anyways, that's the basic gist of where I'm at.



Removed "most" of the shit from my workout room............doing the rest tonight and tomorrow.



And basically just transferred the mess to my garage..........need to clean that up tomorrow, and I'm gonna use all those ruined buckets as storage (might as well get some use out of them).



This is the fungicide/miticide/insecticide that eveerybody got sprayed with today - all organic, and safe for spraying on veggies even up to the day you're gonna eat them.

Worked wonders on my tomatoes and zucchinis in my outside garden.



Superskunk seedlings, all doing pretty well - at least two if not three are viable as mamas.



NYPD seedlings, about two that could be mamas if all goes well.



And here's the BL - you see the brown where the new growth on the one should be? Might as well throw that one away now, not strong enough to be a mama for me. Also, the pic doesn't do the yellow enough justice - they're noticeably more yellow then the other two strains. Not crazy about this one so far.



My indica dominant mama - cutting her some slack for the new growth because of the weeklong hell I put them all through, but she better get her act together soon.



My sativa pheno - no complaints about her, she's a hardy lady - unless the indica is a much better yielder with much better buds, I'm thinking that she'll be the lady I keep, if I only keep one.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 20, 2009)

The more I think about it, the more I'm thinking I'll probably go E&F.

Just don't feel like wasting anymore time building something that may or may not work and may or may not leak, and all I need for an E&F is a reservoir, some fittings, and some square pots (already have the tray, hydroton, and pumps).

Would make more sense to run 64 plants in that setup, but I'm thinking I'd probably still go with 16 plants and veg them for a week or 10 days under my 1000 in the flowering tent to get them to either 2 or 4 colas each.

Man am I undecided, somebody decide for me.


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## Knickers (Oct 20, 2009)

Go SOG. Do it.


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## tmsculli (Oct 20, 2009)

Damn Bob, I don't know what to tell you. Being as stoned, and indecisive as I am, I surely can't make the decision for you. I don't know enough about E&F, but I do know that some absurdly bulk grows are done in them and wicked SOG can be accomplished.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 20, 2009)

Knickers said:


> Go SOG. Do it.


I think I might save that for my second tent, once I find my best mama for that, and have one tent for variety and one tent for max yields.

Been brainstorming all night, and gonna try some ideas out in the next couple of days, hopefully with stuff I already have to at least build a reservoir system, but hopefully a (slowly) recirculating system.

Then, play it by ear from there, and if it seems like I can build one I'm happy with, great, and if not, I'll just do an E&F for this one, but I'd really prefer not to - not great for working with different strains, which I'll be doing for at least the next couple of harvests.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

tough call. you have so many choices. If you have a lot of time on your hands, you could do an 8 plant, 5 gal Scrog, with individual per bucket scrog, so removal of any males is easy.


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## tmsculli (Oct 21, 2009)

I think that you aren't letting yourself realize how long the process is. We all tell each other all the time that it's a learning process, and it really is. You have a large space and damn near all the possibilities are endless. Some of us are cramped in a closet and have to make due, but you can honestly do whatever you want. You can have 3 different small systems running at once, one big one, two medium etc. You can also just do something for this grow, and a different style with another one. I think that the 16 bucket system is a little intense, and maybe you can mix it up a bit. I love 5 gallon buckets though, they are the shit. I like your 4 bucket to 1 reservoir setup, I think that can work out really nicely. You can also get independent screens to scrog each individual bucket if you wanted. You could run clones in E&F and then transfer them to independent buckets for flowering or something.

I dunno man, I would say just start making shit haha.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> tough call. you have so many choices. If you have a lot of time on your hands, you could do an 8 plant, 5 gal Scrog, with individual per bucket scrog, so removal of any males is easy.


Yeah, don't think I'm gonna be flowering any males soon, in all honesty - gonna wait until my seedlings show preflowers before I mess with them, or at least throw a batch of clones right in there just to sex them and then toss them.

Also, I hate not being efficient with my space by maximizing it.

Just really, really hate it, so unfortunately, there's going to be at least 16 plants going in the flowering tent.

Just need to figure out if it's gonna be in buckets or an E&F tray or something else.

Still thinking buckets, though, assuming I can put together a prototype that doesn't leak AND I can find space in the tent to fit the sixteen air pumps.

Figure I can definitely put together a passive one, and if I can make it active, which I'm optimistically thinking I can, then that's just a bonus.

Two reservoirs, 16 buckets.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> I think that you aren't letting yourself realize how long the process is. We all tell each other all the time that it's a learning process, and it really is. You have a large space and damn near all the possibilities are endless. Some of us are cramped in a closet and have to make due, but you can honestly do whatever you want. You can have 3 different small systems running at once, one big one, two medium etc. You can also just do something for this grow, and a different style with another one. I think that the 16 bucket system is a little intense, and maybe you can mix it up a bit. I love 5 gallon buckets though, they are the shit. I like your 4 bucket to 1 reservoir setup, I think that can work out really nicely. You can also get independent screens to scrog each individual bucket if you wanted. You could run clones in E&F and then transfer them to independent buckets for flowering or something.
> 
> I dunno man, I would say just start making shit haha.


Lol, I got that dude, which is why I was looking for some other people's opinions 

Basically what I'm going for is what's gonna cost me the least amount of time and money to get up and running and that I'm fairly familiar with, so I'm thinking buckets (although this nagging fucking root rot has me wondering). 

Well, enough talking, going to try and setup these two eight bucket systems but might have to go to 4 four bucket systems, we'll see.

Oh, and I decided last night (around 3:30am) that instead of one more 4x4 flowering tent with a 1000 watter, my next tent is gonna be an 8x4 with 2 1000's.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, don't think I'm gonna be flowering any males soon, in all honesty - gonna wait until my seedlings show preflowers before I mess with them, or at least throw a batch of clones right in there just to sex them and then toss them.
> 
> Also, I hate not being efficient with my space by maximizing it.
> 
> ...


just as a side note on planning, If you get good air pumps, you only need a couple. I can run 8 buckets on one of my pumps no problem, and as long as your setup is close to right, root rot shouldnt be a problem.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> just as a side note on planning, If you get good air pumps, you only need a couple. I can run 8 buckets on one of my pumps no problem, and as long as your setup is close to right, root rot shouldnt be a problem.


Yeah, the root rot's lingering from a couple of weeks ago when I had them in Rubbermaids and was freely letting in light without worrying about it.

My mamas are fine - just the seedlings are having some issues (not even, the growth is fine, just looks like somebody's been using the buckets as spittoons), but once I clone them and figure out who the ladies are, I'm gonna do a full clean (and probably before that, as I still have to build a veg system that I like).

Still cleaning up that disaster in the garage before I can start putting anything together; this is taking forever.

Edit: as far as the air pumps, I just hook up one of the $10 Wal-Mart ones to each bucket - was thinking about it, and can (and probably will) just rest it on the lid of the bucket.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

I'm sure you'd be much better off getting a pump like this:
http://www.growlightexpress.com/pumps-irrigation-41/air-pumps-42/dual-diaphragm-air-pump-270.html
or even one like this:
http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=472
It is a lot easier to run air hoses the outlets. Are you going for 5 extension cords just for air pumps. And I've used the little pumps, and unless you have a rez chiller, i wouldnt leave my plants with so little air. The dual diaphram is what I use. I have 1 for my 6 mothers, 1 for my clones, and 2 for my flower tub. When it comes to air in dwc, overkill is always better.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> I'm sure you'd be much better off getting a pump like this:
> http://www.growlightexpress.com/pumps-irrigation-41/air-pumps-42/dual-diaphragm-air-pump-270.html
> or even one like this:
> http://www.altgarden.com/store/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=472
> It is a lot easier to run air hoses the outlets. Are you going for 5 extension cords just for air pumps. And I've used the little pumps, and unless you have a rez chiller, i wouldnt leave my plants with so little air. The dual diaphram is what I use. I have 1 for my 6 mothers, 1 for my clones, and 2 for my flower tub. When it comes to air in dwc, overkill is always better.


Couldn't agree with you more regarding more air is always better, but that's why I do what I do - I take a Wal-Mart dual outlet pump rated for 20-60 gallons, and turn the dual outlet into a single outlet via a "T" connector (because it always seems to me that one of the outlets pumps more air then the other), and then run that single line to my circular 6" micro bubble airstones.

And yeah, I'll probably have four surge protectors in there just for the pumps, but they'll be located outside of the "spill zone" of my tent, so I'm not too worried about it.

Plus, a pump that big wouldn't fit between the buckets, methinks.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

the dual isnt that big and kicks out more air to 4 buckets than that pump can to one. Which would also make it more cost effective. The dual is also not that big. only about the size of a cd case, but about 3-4 inches tall. The reason I bought it was also because it is owner rebuildable. If it ever craps out, grab a new set of diaphrams and rebuild it. I'm not saying switch your whole setup to that immediately, but you might want to consider grabbing one, and comparing, and letting the results make the decision for you.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> the dual isnt that big and kicks out more air to 4 buckets than that pump can to one. Which would also make it more cost effective. The dual is also not that big. only about the size of a cd case, but about 3-4 inches tall. The reason I bought it was also because it is owner rebuildable. If it ever craps out, grab a new set of diaphrams and rebuild it.


Lol.............regarding the rebuilding, you have been following this thread, right? 

FYI, I'm not the handiest............but I'm learning.

I appreciate the tips, and that pump may be a better idea for future systems, but I'm gonna go with the 20ish Walmart ones I have now, if for no other reason then laziness.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

You missed the edit i did to my post. Slightly relavant. I know that pupm is $60, but it does the work of $80 worth of walmart pumps. Again, I' not saying trade all your equipment in, just sharing info. How do you like those premium discs? I contemplated them, but didnt have the money for this run. If you colud, take a pic of one in a res running with your cameras iso setting higher than normal, and I could get a good idea of how they spresd air. Thanks bob if you do or dont. I know you have a lot of work on your hands. Hope it starts going easier for you. Keep us updaed and I wana see some pics of plants in buckets filling out your room. NOW!jk. Take your time.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

I forgot, as far as the rebuild, I said it was owner rebuildable for a reason. If you can work a phillips screwdriver and open a beer, you got the skills required to rebuild this pump.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> I forgot, as far as the rebuild, I said it was owner rebuildable for a reason. If you can work a phillips screwdriver and open a beer, you got the skills required to rebuild this pump.


Lol..........well in that case, I'm giving myself a 50/50 shot.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

lol, you know how to work the beer and not the screwdriver i assume.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> lol, you know how to work the beer and not the screwdriver i assume.


Actually not too great at either, more of a bourbon man (read: alcoholic).

Anyways, after hours and hours of working and feeling like I was making no progress, I'm actually starting to see the fruits of my labor.

Got a spot cleared to re-setup my flowering tent, but first, need to get this cloner all setup - in case anyone watched me do it last time, I only made 15 spots in the lid (dar di dar dar), so I'm making a new one with 20 spots and a hole for pH testing without lifting the lid.

Shouldn't take me more then fifteen minutes, tops..............starting.................now.


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## Twils (Oct 21, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Actually not too great at either, more of a bourbon man (read: alcoholic).
> 
> Anyways, after hours and hours of working and feeling like I was making no progress, I'm actually starting to see the fruits of my labor.
> 
> ...


Ooo 15 minutes are up Bob!

Hope all of the rebuild goes well, I'll post the pics I have of my system for you..

As much as I'd hate to say it, at this point in the game it would almost be worth just buying a system from the hydro shop and get on the ball, After $$"xxx" on buckets,pumps, air stones blah blah blah, it damn near adds up to the same cost.

Keep up the hard work, it will pay off soon!


Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Twils said:


> Ooo 15 minutes are up Bob!
> 
> Hope all of the rebuild goes well, I'll post the pics I have of my system for you..
> 
> ...


Are you referring to me buying a system? Because if I do, I'd just buy a reservoir and a stand for the 4x4 table the dude there gave me - already have the pump and everything else I'd need. But I'm with you, the money and time building systems that don't work is getting annoying - could've had a new aeroflo or two by now.

And I thought someone would call me on that 15 minutes (truthfully only took about three, only had to drill some holes).

Anyways, the pics are where we stand so far.



Finally cleared a space to put up my flowering tent (you can even see the poles in the background). Sadly, alcoholism calls, and my unemployed ass is going out to happy hour.



Using all these "ruined" buckets as storage - they fit perfectly on those shelves, three per shelf.



My sativa mama handled the cloning pretty well, although she's definitely feeling a little cold right now from being almost naked.



My indica mama got ravaged and is butt nekked, freezing her ass off. Interested to see how long it takes her to recover.



And here's where all their clothes went - PPM's around 750, pH @ 6.0. You can see the water droplets on the lid from before I covered the holes with the neoprene inserts, so all the stems should be getting nice and agitated. FYI, got a cheapo thermometer from Walmart, and my bucket temps are all at 70. That blue thing in the middle is a cutout from a $1.50 vinyl placemat from Walmart, works great to light-proof my pH test hole.

Anyhow, I'm off to go drinking for a bit, back later on tonight.


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## Twils (Oct 21, 2009)

Looking good! And have fun drankin!

Burn on!


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## tmsculli (Oct 21, 2009)

Dang Bob, now you're talking buddy. I'm really curious as to why everyone's clones that I see are big and thick stemmed with a shit ton of big leaves and people told me to cut a piece under 5" from the bottom, with a .25" stem or less and clip all the leaves except the top pair and cut them in half haha.

Neoprene collars look waaaay too convenient.


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## Earl (Oct 21, 2009)

Are you running 750ppm on your cuts before they root ?

I run 200ppm with my cuts until they rooted,
just so I can pH adjust to 5.5-5.8

Why brand of nutes are you using to foster your cuts ?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Dang Bob, now you're talking buddy. I'm really curious as to why everyone's clones that I see are big and thick stemmed with a shit ton of big leaves and people told me to cut a piece under 5" from the bottom, with a .25" stem or less and clip all the leaves except the top pair and cut them in half haha.
> 
> Neoprene collars look waaaay too convenient.


That's a method a lot of people use, but personally I like to see the tips of the leaves turn a bit yellow to let me know when they're getting hungry for more nutes, and that'd be kinda hard with no leaf tips.

Never tried cutting the leaves, in all honesty, because I've never had to.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Dang Bob, now you're talking buddy. I'm really curious as to why everyone's clones that I see are big and thick stemmed with a shit ton of big leaves and people told me to cut a piece under 5" from the bottom, with a .25" stem or less and clip all the leaves except the top pair and cut them in half haha.
> 
> Neoprene collars look waaaay too convenient.


Usually you have higher success rates with thicker stemed clones, but if the stem is bark like, its no good. Neoprene is a blessing. I used to cut all of the big leaves in half to slow tranpiration when I cloned in rockwool and dirt, but with my dwc cloner, i just cut, dip in root tech, insert into neoprene, and drop it in. I dont need a humidity dome any more, which was the biggest plus. Keep an eye on those clones though bob. usually you'll have roots in 7-10days in a setup like that, and then in a matter of an additional week or two, the roots will all grow together and make it very difficult to remove them. I give this advice after making that smae mistake twice. Enjoy happy hour.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Earl said:


> Are you running 750ppm on your cuts before they root ?
> 
> I run 200ppm with my cuts until they rooted,
> just so I can pH adjust to 5.5-5.8
> ...


Yes sir; have found that trying to root with no nutes always leaves them begging for nutes come day 3 or 4, so I figured I'd cut out the middleman this time around.

The nutes I'm using are GH Flora, and a tsp of Superthrive in there as well.

Hoping to see some roots within the week (would usually hope for four or five days, but based on my previous experience, this is a slow-cloning strain).


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Twils said:


> Looking good! And have fun drankin!
> 
> Burn on!


Yeah, I'm wasted; just came home to grab my other favorite drug before I head to downtown Philly to watch us head to the World Series..........


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## Bob Smith (Oct 21, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Usually you have higher success rates with thicker stemed clones, but if the stem is bark like, its no good. Neoprene is a blessing. I used to cut all of the big leaves in half to slow tranpiration when I cloned in rockwool and dirt, but with my dwc cloner, i just cut, dip in root tech, insert into neoprene, and drop it in. I dont need a humidity dome any more, which was the biggest plus. Keep an eye on those clones though bob. usually you'll have roots in 7-10days in a setup like that, and then in a matter of an additional week or two, the roots will all grow together and make it very difficult to remove them. I give this advice after making that smae mistake twice. Enjoy happy hour.


Yeah, I'll be keeping an eye on them - want vigorous growth, but not so much that I can't get them outta the hole.

And I used to use Clonex to dip them into, but a friend told me a while back to just put them in your mouth for a second or two, which is what I've done and still do.

Okay guys and gals, heading down to Phillay, get at you all either WAY early in the morning or tomorrow.


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## Integra21 (Oct 21, 2009)

My moms are covered in neem oil and Bang(pyrethrin), so I dont plan on putting mine in my mouth any time soon. I have tried, and I dont need to put anything on them, but I have 3 tubs of roottech just laying around, so I might as well use it.


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## tmsculli (Oct 21, 2009)

woot, get em phils.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 23, 2009)

Is bothering the shit outta me - not to the point where it's really a "big" problem yet, but if I don't add 50mL of 3% H2O2 to each bucket every day, the roots get all slimy (was too hungover to do anything but check the pH yesterday, so today saw some nice snot on the roots).

Sooooo, cut off all the slimy roots today (first time doing that) and added some more H2O2 to everyone's bucket - I'm pretty damn sure that all the containers are light-proof, but my rez temps did get up to about 74 because of the warm temps we had here - thinking that problem should go away soon enough with it getting colder, but it's really an annoyance.

Also got me thinking about what's gonna happen in my flowering tent, as I'm probably gonna be running temps at 82-85 with the CO2 enrichment - anyone have any thoughts? Making me think that to run CO2 I might have to go E&F with a water chiller in order to keep rez temps down, or have all my air pumps outside of the tent (big headache), where the ambient temps will be more in the 55-65 range.

Of course, if there's an additive (heard good things about Cannazyme from the searches I've done) that will preclude root rot from forming, I'm all ears, but it's gotta be something that I can just add with water changes, because I'm not gonna be adding H2O2 to 16 buckets every day.

FYI, all the plants are doing well, with the Super Skunk just flourishing (growing about an inch or more daily), the NYPD doing "okay", and the Bubblelicious making me think I might just cull the three that are left.


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## Integra21 (Oct 23, 2009)

If your resivor is peaking at 74F and your getting root rot, something else is going on. Same if it keeps clearing up and coming back. High levles of nitrogen can cause poor root health. You aren't using any organic nutrients are you? Asking because h202 kills organic fertalizers. Does your res smell foul? How strong are you mixing your nutrients? Is there enough air in the buckets? I have an idea for a makeshift res chiller. I an going to try it when I get the money, but I had an Idea of putting my air pumps in a mini-fridge and drilling holes for the lines. Leaving the fridge at a fairly low temp, and seeing what this could produce. I was hoping for a 5-10F teperature drop. I have not tested this yet though, It is just an Idea. But the best one I could come up with to chill multiple resivors with a single cheap and small unit. I know you have a lot of pumps, but you couuld still fit a bunch in. If you are interested i can fill you in on the more complete discription, but if not, I understand, since I have not yet verified if this would work.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 24, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> If your resivor is peaking at 74F and your getting root rot, something else is going on. Same if it keeps clearing up and coming back. High levles of nitrogen can cause poor root health. You aren't using any organic nutrients are you? Asking because h202 kills organic fertalizers. Does your res smell foul? How strong are you mixing your nutrients? Is there enough air in the buckets? I have an idea for a makeshift res chiller. I an going to try it when I get the money, but I had an Idea of putting my air pumps in a mini-fridge and drilling holes for the lines. Leaving the fridge at a fairly low temp, and seeing what this could produce. I was hoping for a 5-10F teperature drop. I have not tested this yet though, It is just an Idea. But the best one I could come up with to chill multiple resivors with a single cheap and small unit. I know you have a lot of pumps, but you couuld still fit a bunch in. If you are interested i can fill you in on the more complete discription, but if not, I understand, since I have not yet verified if this would work.


Thanks for your input; using GH, so no organic, and also using only Macro and Bloom, so kind of doubt that they're getting too much N (although I'll be keeping tabs on it).

And it hasn't really "left" and then "come back" - it's kinda just been lingering and I've been treating it pretty regularly with H2O2.

Also, my reservoir's don't smell "foul", but if I haven't treated with H2O2 for a couple of days, there's a definite "aquarium smell" to it, but nothing too vicious.

And as far as your aquarium chiller idea, I think that I've seen that before with the water lines running through it, so I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work with the air lines coming out of there - I assume it'd just be drilling a hole and sitting the air pumps in there, no?

In any case, appreciate all your help with this crap.

Still thinking E&F is probably how I'm gonna go in a couple of weeks.


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## Lovin'JK (Oct 24, 2009)

Let me know if you guys figure out that res issue. I think I may be having the same problem. Thanks


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## Integra21 (Oct 24, 2009)

well, micro has the mos n out of all of the gh series. Not saying its that just giving you ideas. Ebb&Flo should be pretty nice. I could see with all the headaches your having why you might want to ditch the buckets. I wanted to do ebb originally, but with my height restrictions, i could no figure out a way to make it work. Just no way to fit a table with a res and still have room for the roots to form. How the construction in general? Back to the drawing board, or a work in progress?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 24, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> well, micro has the mos n out of all of the gh series. Not saying its that just giving you ideas. Ebb&Flo should be pretty nice. I could see with all the headaches your having why you might want to ditch the buckets. I wanted to do ebb originally, but with my height restrictions, i could no figure out a way to make it work. Just no way to fit a table with a res and still have room for the roots to form. How the construction in general? Back to the drawing board, or a work in progress?


Yeah, E&F just seems to make more sense for me - don't plan on being unemployed forever, and am looking for a simple, trouble-free way to grow that's not dirt and doesn't require tons of attention and tweaking.

Actually wondering if I might be pushing my height restrictions a little as well, as two feet for the reservoir, plus 2.5 for the plants gets me to five feet, and the tent's only seven feet tall (with a 1000HPS), so I'm gonna need to setup that flower tent ASAP (maybe today, if I can get off my fat ass) and take some measurements.

And as far as the construction, I need to decide whether I'm doing E&F or DWC for flowering (pretty much decided I'm doing E&F, assuming the height works out). The issue with E&F is that I'd need 64 plants per tent to make it as efficient as possible, and I'm not willing to go that high in plant numbers, so I'm gonna have 16 with either two or four colas per, which I'm guessing is gonna be about ten to 14 days of veg from when the clones root in (hopefully) a couple of days.

Anyways, heading to the hydro store now to talk to the dude and pick his brain about E&F.

My (preliminary) parts list is below:

Additions needed (can't figure out how to paste it correctly, but even though the format's screwy, you can kinda figure it out): 

Part Price Qty Subtotal Pots $ 1.50 20 $ 30.00 CO2 Regulator $ 150.00 1 $ 150.00 Chiller (Craigslist) $ 300.00 1 $ 300.00 Pot Covers $ 1.50 20 $ 30.00 E&F Fittings $ 10.00 2 $ 20.00 Reservoir $ 100.00 1 $ 100.00 400GPH Pump $ 40.00 1 $ 40.00 Coco Mat $ 50.00 1 $ 50.00 
Total $ 720.00


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## Integra21 (Oct 24, 2009)

if you have an extra $30 and your worried about height, set up a Scrog screen about 12" off of the table. You will be able to maintain an even canopy of a height you desire and force the plants to grow horizontal instead of vertical, thus maximizing your space with full coverage with fewer plants. Also makes evey but on the plant into a top cola. Figured I'd throw it out there and save your height worries.


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## crossouttheiis (Oct 24, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> if you have an extra $30 and your worried about height, set up a Scrog screen about 12" off of the table. You will be able to maintain an even canopy of a height you desire and force the plants to grow horizontal instead of vertical, thus maximizing your space with full coverage with fewer plants. Also makes evey but on the plant into a top cola. Figured I'd throw it out there and save your height worries.


Have you thought about aeroponics at all? It is extremely easy to set up and I am sure you wouldnt have to worry about height restrictions. If you look into getting something like a panda reservoir they are quite a bit lower. What were you planning on using for one. Nice set up by the way... I switched to super soil for the year to see how it goes.


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## Integra21 (Oct 24, 2009)

I use dwc and it works great for me. I was just trying to give positive encouragement to bob. His buckets havent gone so good for him. I thought about aero, but it seemed like a complicated initial setup with a higher startup cost and more things to go wrong, so I kept it simple with dwc.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 24, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> if you have an extra $30 and your worried about height, set up a Scrog screen about 12" off of the table. You will be able to maintain an even canopy of a height you desire and force the plants to grow horizontal instead of vertical, thus maximizing your space with full coverage with fewer plants. Also makes evey but on the plant into a top cola. Figured I'd throw it out there and save your height worries.


Yeah, was going to use a screen regardless, if nothing else then to support the (hopefully) heavy colas that form - figuring 4 colas on 1 plant/sf, that means that each cola would get its own 6"x6" square for growth, hopefully making it look like I have 64 single cola plants as opposed to 16 four cola plants.

Got back from the hydro store, and although the guy there is nice, he doesn't know as much as I'd like from my hydro guy.

He was amazed that you could even use hydroton in an E&F, and swore to me that all the roots would dry out and die (lotsa people use it and they don't die, it just allows you to flood more then rockwool, which I like).

Anyways, got some panda film which I'm gonna use to cover the tops of the 6" square pots, and also to light-proof whatever else that I can think of which might have some algae growth.

Another issue that I'm gonna have with hydroton is having a slab of either rockwool or coco under the pots as a failsafe should the hydroton get too dry or the pump break for any amount of time - the problem is that my store only carries the 3 foot by 6" slabs of rockwool, so I'll have to custom order a 4x4 slab of either rockwool or coco.

The tray I was given only has one hole drilled in it, so the guy said that if I bring my tray back in he'll drill it for me (anyone who's followed this knows about my shitting drilling, as well as the fact that the specialized bit is $70, which I'd prefer not to spend for the three seconds I'd be using it).

So, that's about it, just went in and looked at some setups to get some ideas - asked the guy if they had cannazym or hygrozyme, and they only had a $150 bottle of hygrozyme, which I declined to purchase, so he gave me some nitrozyme for free (don't ask me why).


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## Bob Smith (Oct 24, 2009)

crossouttheiis said:


> Have you thought about aeroponics at all? It is extremely easy to set up and I am sure you wouldnt have to worry about height restrictions. If you look into getting something like a panda reservoir they are quite a bit lower. What were you planning on using for one. Nice set up by the way... I switched to super soil for the year to see how it goes.


I have thought about aeroponics, but I want something simple, and E&F seems to be it.

Also pretty deep into this grow (not sure, but somewhere in the 4-5K range is my best guess), plus all the time I've spent doing things that didn't work out, so I'd like something that I'm pretty confident is gonna get me to the finish line with minimal building and spending on my part.

From my calculations, another six or seven hundred and minimal work on my part should get me my first harvest.

After a couple of harvests and expansions, then I'll probably start messing around with some other systems.


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## Twils (Oct 24, 2009)

Watering Wand: $8.95
3 Bags: Fox Farm Ocean Forest: $41.85
20: 3 gallon smart pots: $60.00
Not banging your head against the wall: Priceless!

Did I miss something some where were soil is not an option? With all that time and effort you could have had enough dirt for quite a few grows my friend!

E&F though sounds like the way though if the height will work out.

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 24, 2009)

Twils said:


> Watering Wand: $8.95
> 3 Bags: Fox Farm Ocean Forest: $41.85
> 20: 3 gallon smart pots: $60.00
> Not banging your head against the wall: Priceless!
> ...


Lol, that is a last-ditch resort, but I've lugged yards of ProMix before and don't ever wanna do that again.

Soil's just too messy for me, but it is an option if all else fails.


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## Twils (Oct 24, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, that is a last-ditch resort, but I've lugged yards of ProMix before and don't ever wanna do that again.
> 
> Soil's just too messy for me, but it is an option if all else fails.



Oh ok. Wasn't sure if it was completely out of the picture or not haha.

I do agree lugging soil is a pain the ass, and it is also really messy. I just have to sweep every other day 

So going to go with E&F if space fits ya?

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 25, 2009)

Twils said:


> Oh ok. Wasn't sure if it was completely out of the picture or not haha.
> 
> I do agree lugging soil is a pain the ass, and it is also really messy. I just have to sweep every other day
> 
> ...


Yeah, it definitely fits and that's the route I'm going, methinks...............of course, not returning all my bucket stuff yet, you know how easily I change my mind 

But if I was a betting man, I'd have my money on E&F.


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## tmsculli (Oct 25, 2009)

Excited to see the E&F come to life, I have never seen one in a journal before.


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## indica44 (Oct 25, 2009)

You cannot go wrong with indoor pro mix an 3 gallon bags an advance nutrients mother earth two part oganic tea grow an bloom no need for ph ing. when two weeks into bud hit them once with ton o bud just once. It is the simplelest way to grow that I have ever done an idiot proof straight water every second feeding and flush for 10 to 14 days an wala beautiful tasting an great yields. I use a 1000 watt hps with a light mover I can keep the light 6 to 8 inches away from plants an sure does make for thick buds.www.peakseedsbc.com skunkberry an blueberry an northernberry are wicked to grow.


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## Twils (Oct 25, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, it definitely fits and that's the route I'm going, methinks...............of course, not returning all my bucket stuff yet, you know how easily I change my mind
> 
> But if I was a betting man, I'd have my money on E&F.


Right on my friend! Can't wait to see the E&F up and running! Will it fit ? or are you going to be very limited for height?

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 25, 2009)

Twils said:


> Right on my friend! Can't wait to see the E&F up and running! Will it fit ? or are you going to be very limited for height?
> 
> Burn on!


No, I really shouldn't be - was kinda stoned when I thought I'd have height issues; actually think it'll fit quite easily.

Kinda stoked for it, actually, but still need to do some research.


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## Twils (Oct 25, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> No, I really shouldn't be - was kinda stoned when I thought I'd have height issues; actually think it'll fit quite easily.
> 
> Kinda stoked for it, actually, but still need to do some research.



Right on! Glad that it will fit, sounds like its gonna work out quite nicely.

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 25, 2009)

Thank you sir 

Just ordered 30 of these:

http://plasticflowerpots.net/2gallonpots.aspx

Figure I'll put 25 into each tray (5x5, obviously), and that should keep me under the magical 100 number, at least for a while.

Sketching some plans for the stand I'm going to attempt to build for the tray right now, should be something even I can handle.

Other than that, it's really just getting the reservoir and lid (still would like to just use a cheap storage container, but figure I'll spend the money for an actual reservoir and lid - need to figure out the recommended size reservoir for a 4x4), taking my tray to the hydro store to get drilled and plumbed with the E&F fittings, grab another bag of hydroton, and I'm done, methinks (save for the chiller, but I'm gonna hold off on that until I figure out if it's necessary or not).

Oh, also need to get a regulator for my CO2 tanks, so that's like another $150.

Started to setup the flowering tent today but only got the frame setup - maybe I'll go put the skin on now instead of watching the Giants and Yankees.


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## Integra21 (Oct 25, 2009)

If you have a seprate res like you are going to, You can simply fill 2l pop bottles with water and freeze them. Then just throw a couple in untill the desired temp is reached. It is easy to make do this way untill you decide if you need a chiller. But generally the cooler the roots are, the hotter your temps at the canopy can be, within reason. You dont want 40F res temps and 110F canopy temps. But with your CO2, you should shoot for around 65F res and 85F canopy. Cant wait to see this all set up. If you were local I'd come by and help you set it up.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 25, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> If you have a seprate res like you are going to, You can simply fill 2l pop bottles with water and freeze them. Then just throw a couple in untill the desired temp is reached. It is easy to make do this way untill you decide if you need a chiller. But generally the cooler the roots are, the hotter your temps at the canopy can be, within reason. You dont want 40F res temps and 110F canopy temps. But with your CO2, you should shoot for around 65F res and 85F canopy. Cant wait to see this all set up. If you were local I'd come by and help you set it up.


Yeah, hoping that with wintertime coming I can put off on buying a water chiller for a bit, but I'm still surfing Craigslist on the regular to check for deals.

That being said, I could handle soda bottles for the first run, I think.

Also getting kinda excited, shooting to have the 25 plants in there (10 clones of indica mama, 10 of sativa mama, and then five of the seedlings TBD) by November 1st and then start flowering by November 8th.

Hoping for a January 10th harvest, if all goes well.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 26, 2009)

So all appears to be well in the veg tent, save that the clones aren't rooting as quickly as I would've liked; see some nubs on a couple, but it's gonna likely be at least a week before they're ready for prime time.



A little yellowing around the leaf tips, but not as bad as when they just had plain water.



These super skunks are growing like weeds; clearly the strongest strain of the three.



NYPD is right behind, growing pretty well.



And the bubblelicious are making a comeback - very nice new growth, seems like they're coming around.



Indica mom recovered nicely.



Same with her sativa sister.



And I setup the flowering tent today (just the actual tent), and as you can see there's tons of fixings that I need to mount in there - besides that, there's gonna be a dehumidifier, the 4x4 tray, a reservoir, and possibly its own portable AC in there.

Crowded place.

Anyways, hoping to get that tent setup by noon tomorrow, go get my tray fully plumbed, and then go to Home Depot to build the stand for it.

Once I've got the light mounted, I can figure out how much clearance I need for the table, which will determine if I need to buy a "real" reservoir and lid (for like $200) or if I can get by with a Walmart reservoir (for like $30).

We'll see, but just wanted to give you guys and gals a quick update - more pics tomorrow when I've (hopeefully) fully set the tent up.

Go Eagles!!!!!!!

EDIT: posted a pic of the NYPD twice; the bubblelicious is the pic attached at the bottom. My bads.


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## DND (Oct 26, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Go Eagles!!!!!!!


Amen, in NEPA and an Eagles fan... they better not pull that BS they did last week vs the Raiders!


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## Twils (Oct 26, 2009)

Looking good Bob! Your ladies are looking very happy there in that veg tent.

So did you get your E&F tray plumbed and your res etc etc?

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 27, 2009)

Twils said:


> Looking good Bob! Your ladies are looking very happy there in that veg tent.
> 
> So did you get your E&F tray plumbed and your res etc etc?
> 
> Burn on!


Funny you should ask.

Actually made good progress on getting my flowering tent setup last night, so only another hour or two on that and I should be good to go for some early dry runs.

Then it's on to the hydro store to get my tray plumbed and to pickup a regulator for my CO2 tanks, along with another big ole bag of hydroton.

Then it's on to Home Depot to look around for reservoirs (figure something around 25 gallons should do nicely), and also to pickup wood to build a stand for the tray. Also wanna pickup some plant stakes, if they still have them in stock (seasonal item).

Then, if there's still time in the day and I haven't passed out yet (didn't sleep a lick last night because I was tossing and turning with excitement for getting a lot of shit done today), I was gonna try to head to a ghetto welding place and get my three CO2 tanks filled up.

Anyways, wish me luck - been chugging coffee since 6:30, hoping to make it to 9 or 10 tonight and then get a great night's sleep.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 27, 2009)

Okay, so I'm fighting off the desire to sleep like you wouldn't believe, but have been pretty productive, if I do say so myself.

Couldn't bring myself to do any actual physical labor in terms of setting the tent up, so I did what I consider to be work, which means I shopped 



Got these assorted knicknacks from Home Depot - extension cords, surge protectors, nails and metal thingies.



Got lotsa lumber for the table I'm going to attempt to build for my tray - figure even I should be able to build a table, no?



These are the 6' bamboo poles that I'm going to cut in half and use as stakes for my plants instead of using a net - much more accessible and I can still move them around that way.



Stopped by the hydro store and picked up this CO2 regulator; everything I hear about it is that it's the best you can get and won't freeze, for whatever that's worth.



A picture of the light and fan I mounted last night - nothing special, same as it was the first time.



Now the astute observer might notice a difference in this picture, even though the filter and fan are in the same place - turns out that white thing around it (a "prefilter") was hidden inside of it, which I didn't realize until I had to break that tent down for the electrician to get in. I'd rather be lucky then good, I guess 

So, just called the welding place fifteen minutes away from me, said that it's $15 to fill a twenty pound CO2 tank, so I'm kinda stoked on that.

He also said something that if "it's up to code", which I imagine mine aren't, that there's a three day wait and a $24 charge to get it up to code, so I guess I'll know shortly what the deal is with that.

Anyways, the pieces are just about all in place, save for getting the tray plumbed, which I told the dude I might be in this afternoon to do.

Getting pretty excited now, might actually be able to stay awake for another hour or two.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 27, 2009)

Twils said:


> Sorry Bob probably a worthless post on my part, but can't help ya there on the c02, but would love to learn more my self about it!
> 
> Burn on!


Well Twils, it's time for both of us to start learning about it, buddy 

Just got back from the fucking ghe-tto...........



Notice anything different about those two tanks? Like how they look to be frosty on the bottom of them? That's because those two little bitches were just freshly filled to the gills with glorious CO2 (for $15 a piece, great price if you ask me).

The third one hadn't had an inspection in more then five years, so it was an extra $25 for them to test/certify/whatever that one and I'm going to pick it up on Friday afternoon.

So, $70 and I should have enough CO2 to last me for damn near a half year - can't wait to get this all hooked up to the Sentinel and really rocking.

Like.

A.

Boss.


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## tmsculli (Oct 27, 2009)

Damn Bob everything looks great. I remember this summer when I lost full nights of sleep because I was so excited to get building the next day. Instead of this thread being just interesting and having me try to help you with some DWC stuff, it is going to be extremely informative for me. Hopefully we can learn about CO2 and E&F through your experiences haha.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 27, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Damn Bob everything looks great. I remember this summer when I lost full nights of sleep because I was so excited to get building the next day. Instead of this thread being just interesting and having me try to help you with some DWC stuff, it is going to be extremely informative for me. Hopefully we can learn about CO2 and E&F through your experiences haha.


Well, I'll do my best to keep everyone up to date and hopefully have more good news then bad news, for the most part..........anywho, to continue on with my day of stunning productivity, just got back from the hydro store.........



The larger hole on the left was made by some moron in the store a while ago, and is SLIGHTLY too large for the overflow fitting to be totally leakproof......the one on the right was drilled today and is absolutely flawless.............so, need to get back to Home Depot either today or tomorrow (might go today, if I still can't find one of my hammers in the next twenty minutes - need to nail together that stand for the tray) and look around for what they have - another rubber washer and some of the aquarium sealant I have should do the trick, methinks............although I'll take a look around and see what looks good.

BTW, clones are yellowing more towards their leaf edges, which means they're finally using some energy to make some roots.

Slower then I would've liked, but such is life.

Wow am I tired.


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## Integra21 (Oct 27, 2009)

There is a suddle art form to bottled c02. How are you going to control it? With a setinle co2 controller right? Should be fairly easy. Much harder if your working with timers to get it dialed in right. But with your setup, just hook all the components together, set at roughly 1-7psi, and let the controller do the rest. I dont recall if the tent is going to be sealed. If so, I'd shoot for the 1500ppm but if its not, I'd go for a lower number around 1000ppm. Cant wait till I get back, you might have this stuff setup and growing like crazy. Good luck Bob and I'll see you on monday.


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## steelherman (Oct 27, 2009)

Still here and still waiting to see how everything turns out. That is going to be a sick setup when its all done. Keep it up.


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## Twils (Oct 27, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Well Twils, it's time for both of us to start learning about it, buddy
> 
> Just got back from the fucking ghe-tto...........
> 
> ...


I got my learning cap on my friend! Everything sounds like its working out for you.

Making nice progress too there, keep it up!

Nice deal filling that CO2! How much did that regulator run if you don't mind? 

Been trying to get a cost in head as to how much it's going to cost to get CO2 running in my room.

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 27, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> There is a suddle art form to bottled c02. How are you going to control it? With a setinle co2 controller right? Should be fairly easy. Much harder if your working with timers to get it dialed in right. But with your setup, just hook all the components together, set at roughly 1-7psi, and let the controller do the rest. I dont recall if the tent is going to be sealed. If so, I'd shoot for the 1500ppm but if its not, I'd go for a lower number around 1000ppm. Cant wait till I get back, you might have this stuff setup and growing like crazy. Good luck Bob and I'll see you on monday.


Yeah, from everything I've read about them, it's basically plug it in and the Sentinel does the rest.

And yes, the goal is for the tent to be sealed - obviously in a tent you're gonna have small-ish leaks in different places, but I'll live with that and I'm gonna plan on running at 1500 (if not more once I'm dialed in).

BTW Integra, enjoy wherever you're headed off to.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 27, 2009)

Twils said:


> I got my learning cap on my friend! Everything sounds like its working out for you.
> 
> Making nice progress too there, keep it up!
> 
> ...


Thanks man, appreciate it - was going like gangbusters until about 4:45 when I closed my eyes for about an hour after nailing some pieces of the stand together..........took me two hours to fully wakeup, so I'm done being productive for today - gonna try to finish up the flowering setup and the tray stand tomorrow.

As far as questions go, nothing's off limits, my friend  The CO2 breakdown is as follows:

Sentinel CHHC-1 - new off of Ebay, $510
3 used 20lb. tanks (Craigslist) - $125
Regulator - $170
Getting the tanks filled and serviced - $70

Total for the whole setup is $875, but if you wanted to you could find a used regulator off of Ebay for cheap and only buy one tank, could probably get both for less then $200.


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## Integra21 (Oct 27, 2009)

If you're going the tank route Twills, let me know and I can post some links for a site that selles them cheap brand new with recent test dates so they're good for 5 years. 20lb battle of $90. But you may want to consider a co2 generator, it ends up being cheaper in the long run. and there are some really good choices for cheapish.


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## Twils (Oct 27, 2009)

Thanks for the info Bob and Integra!

Would love some links. Thanks!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 27, 2009)

So, the last thing that I seem to need would be a reservoir for this table - based on my measurements, I have 22" of height under my tray, so I'd really be shooting for something in the 16" height range to give me some room for draining, filling, testing, etc.

Been doing lots of searching trying to find the proper reservoir size for a 4x4 and can't seem to find the exact answer; that being said, I think that 25 gallons at a bare minimum would be acceptable, although I'd like about 35-40 in a perfect world.

Only problem is, they don't really make too many containers that hold 35-40 gallons and are that short.

The 35 gallon Sterilite latch tote would be my best choice for a single container, but even that's a little too tall for my liking - 18.5". Also, even though Sterilite are WAY sturdier then Rubbermaids, any of those plastic totes bend and stress from the weight of the water, which sucks.

Anyways, going to pick these up from Wal-Mart tomorrow - can't really tell from the pic, but I'm hoping they have some nice thick walls and won't stress from the water.

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/allReviews.do?product_id=11014791

The plan is to plumb the two together (I can hear all of you laughing), but I think I can do it, and have the plumbing (for the tray) coming out the roof of one and have the other that I'll drain, fill, and check pH and EC from.

That's the plan, anyways, unless someone has another idea - the two of them would give me about 35-40 gallons, which is more then sufficient for a 4x4 table.

I believe at that point that I would (theoretically) be officially done spending money on my flowering setup.


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## adam66 (Oct 27, 2009)

Sweet set up Bob 400 hps the whole way thats what i am gonna do i just got one.
come check out my grow in my sig.


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## DND (Oct 27, 2009)

Damn Bob, you have a lot of gear my man! If it were me with all that stuff my brain would explode from all of the possibilities. That, or my whole house would be a grow room. Hopefully in the end it all pays for itself, but better than that... You get the satisfaction of growing and smoking your own medicine without the worry of contaminants and all the other shit they do/add to it. I love it when they run those commercials "if you buy drugs you are supporting terrorism", makes me completely justified in growing my own.


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## Integra21 (Oct 27, 2009)

sounds good. Make sure you use the recommended drill bit this time, and I would practice a shitload on one of your leaky buckets. I mean turn it to swiss cheese until you are completely confident that you can drill without problems. Cant wait to see the setup when I get back. I know I keep saying I'm leaving, but my flight is at 4:30a.m.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 28, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> sounds good. Make sure you use the recommended drill bit this time, and I would practice a shitload on one of your leaky buckets. I mean turn it to swiss cheese until you are completely confident that you can drill without problems. Cant wait to see the setup when I get back. I know I keep saying I'm leaving, but my flight is at 4:30a.m.


Yeah, will do, although I'm thinking the material is going to slightly different and less brittle, but we shall see.

So, picking those up today, and about to start hammering some more nails for my stand (also need to run back to HD to grab some more metal fasteners). 

Then if I've still got juice in the tank, going to try to finish setting up my flowering tent.

FYI, the indica clones are rooting much more quickly then the sativa - there's some definite nubs on the indica side, whereas the sativa only has some bumps of where the roots will be.

Finally, and more to the point that I'm even posting right now, I do believe I've discovered the most enlightening thread I've ever read - only up to about page 10 now, but I HIGHLY recommend all of you to check it out - it's a thread about lots of things, mainly nutes, by a guy named Lucas (of "Lucas Formula" fame).

Check it out, I beseech you:

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=892

EDIT: this link is also kinda interesting - remember, these are from 2006, so take that into account, but he makes interesting points.

https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=358


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## Bob Smith (Oct 28, 2009)

So, finished that up today - pretty easy, just takes some planning beforehand regarding the cuts and whatnot = two sides are 49.5 inches, two are 52.5 inches, and the legs are 24 inches.

The tray fits in it better then I could've hoped; it truly fits like a glove - nice to have at least one building success in a multitude of failures, even if it was a lowly table.

Also, this thing is so reinforced with metal plates that I can't even see the apocalypse bringing this down - it's sturdier then sturdy.

Also, as you can see from the attached pics, there's an inch or two of extra space around all sides in the tent.


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## Twils (Oct 28, 2009)

Very nice job. Looks very professional Bob!

Things are going to start rocking and rolling I can feel it! Keep up the good work!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 29, 2009)

Twils said:


> Very nice job. Looks very professional Bob!
> 
> Things are going to start rocking and rolling I can feel it! Keep up the good work!
> 
> Burn on!


Thanks man, appreciate it - sorry about the mite problem you're battling, but just keep fighting the good fight.

For today, going to try and finish (I know this is like a broken record) setting up my flowering tent; also taking the tray back to the store to get another hole drilled in it (looked around the Home Depot plumbing section for hours, thank you kindly Mr. Twils - that place is the shit, I've got ideas galore now kiss-ass) - anyways, bought lots of things to try to make the hole work, but then found a stopper which fits great, so I'm just gonna plug the hole as opposed to dealing with problems that may arise from it, especially later on.

Also gonna pickup one more bag of hydroton (I figure I'm gonna need two more, but I'll start with one), and my pots for the flowering table should be arriving today, I believe.

So, as soon as the tent is setup, I can start taking some temp readings and things like that, just to get a ballpark feel for where the temp's gonna settle in at with just the light being cooled and then with all fans up and running - hoping for 5 and 2 degrees difference from room temp, respectively, although I'm guessing more like 7 and 4 or 8 and 5.

Might have to put a mini AC in there under the tray, already looking at them online


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## Twils (Oct 30, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Thanks man, appreciate it - sorry about the mite problem you're battling, but just keep fighting the good fight.
> 
> For today, going to try and finish (I know this is like a broken record) setting up my flowering tent; also taking the tray back to the store to get another hole drilled in it (looked around the Home Depot plumbing section for hours, thank you kindly Mr. Twils - that place is the shit, I've got ideas galore now kiss-ass) - anyways, bought lots of things to try to make the hole work, but then found a stopper which fits great, so I'm just gonna plug the hole as opposed to dealing with problems that may arise from it, especially later on.
> 
> ...


Thanks Bob, those mites are mother f'er that's for sure. I'd like to think I've got the upper hand on them now, and determined to get every last one of those little bastards

No problem my friend, Home Depot is the DIY paradise hehe.

Your starting to get things rocking and rolling! Keep up the good work (talk about a broken record ) , I'm jealous that's for sure!

Hoping my wife and I can get through this pinch were in rather soon so I could start looking into getting some CO2 going and what not, all in due time I guess!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 30, 2009)

Twils said:


> Thanks Bob, those mites are mother f'er that's for sure. I'd like to think I've got the upper hand on them now, and determined to get every last one of those little bastards
> 
> No problem my friend, Home Depot is the DIY paradise hehe.
> 
> ...


Yeah, spider mites are really no fun, but they were disastrous ten years ago when I dealt with them - seems like they have oodles and oodles of stuff to deal with them now, which is good - I've got confidence in you, kid 

I've actually been pretty productive (and taking pics along the way to post later) - the flowering tent is about 85% setup, just need to hang an oscillating fan from the ceiling and install the Sentinel and CO2 tanks and it's done. (also need to buy and setup a reservoir - almost forgot)

The tray was plumbed for a second time yesterday (the guy at the hydro store), and last night I superglued a stopper in the hole that was way too big - tested it five minutes ago and it's as leakproof as they come 

Clones all have pre-roots forming, they should all be officially "rooted" within a day or two.

The 2 gallon plastic pots came - they're cheap as shit and couldn't be fllimsier, but they should get the job done - I guess that's why they're about $.20 a piece.

Need to pickup my third CO2 tank from the welding supply place this afternoon, so we'll have all three ready to go.

Was going to buy a reservoir from the hydro store yesterday for a couple of hundred bucks, then picked it up and it seemed flimsy to me - so I'm gonna find something today to use as a reservoir.

Also made a neat little "system" to clean my hydroton, which I kinda like.

Finally, as any of you who've checked out that thread would understand, I'm now a full Lucas disciple, and ordered this last night (hooks right up to my hose in the garage):

http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/ItemMatrix.asp?GroupCode=WTROSTL00&MatrixType=2&selelement1=undefined&selelement2=undefined&selelement3=undefined&selelement4=undefined&selelement5=undefined

Hopefully a pic update to come later today, but if not then definitely tomorrow.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 30, 2009)

As I was lying in bed last night, had a thought that I might turn my veg tent into two different sections - the top section being the rooted clones that are vegging (in either an E&F tray or a drip system) for a couple of weeks before going into flower (they'd be under the 400), and the bottom section would be my mamas and my new cuttings under fluorescent lights.

Yeah, I know, I should get the flowering tent setup first, but I can handle a lot on my plate 

Anyways, just a thought I'd throw out and see if anyone had any input.


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## duke23 (Oct 30, 2009)

Bob are those new york power diesel growing tall am interested as well but i wonder if they will grow tall as i am restricted to height.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 30, 2009)

duke23 said:


> Bob are those new york power diesel growing tall am interested as well but i wonder if they will grow tall as i am restricted to height.


I can certainly tell you right now that my super skunk are definitely taller then my NYPD (and both are taller then my Bubblelicious), but I'm also height restricted (can't go much if any higher then two feet), so I'll certainly let you know when I do.

If you'd like me to measure the three seedlings, lemme know and I will - off the top of my head, I'd guess a mean height of 7" for the three, if that helps.

Also, thanks for stopping by, I appreciate it.

Now, time for the long thread (with pics)....................


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## Bob Smith (Oct 30, 2009)

Just need to grab one more extension cord for the oscillating fan and I'm done.

Apologies in advance for the disjointed nature of this post - kinda buzzed but also very, very excited to be all but done with the flowering tent setup.



The clone all have nice pre-roots showing and will be officially "rooted" by Sunday at the latest, me thinks (and hopes). Since I didn't have the wherewithal to take pics of the rootzone, you're just gonna have to take my word for that.




Came up with what (I thought) was a clever way to clean brand new hydroton (which, if any don't know, is dirty as hell) - I took one of the Rubbermaids I initially thought I'd be using and drilled numerous little holes in it, and ran that hydroton under the shower for a few hours - worked pretty damn well, if I do say so myself.



A couple of pics of my two drain setups - looked for forever in HD and couldn't find a way to make that hole in the middle work, so superglued a stopper in there - leak free, which is kinda big to me 



Twils, great phucking call on the worm drive clamps - those shits are badass, and I don't even need to use duct tape anymore  The only issue I still have is that taping a a semi-rigid duct to a fan or flange is still a bitch - the clamps only work on flexible ducting.



At some point I'm gonna make everything less loud with some of this fiberglass ducting, but it was too much of a bitch for me to deal with today.



Here's a pic showing that my tray can fit 30 plants - doubt that's how many are going to finish flowering in a week or two, but that's how many are gonna start.



So even though I bought a 16" wall mount fan for this tent, it seems as though the old 12" stand fan is the way to go - works great, ran it for a couple of hours and this is my personal favorite part of the tent (for my ingenuity).



Mounted the Sentinel on the wall - just turned it on a half hour ago, that shit is phucking badass. Take my word for it.



This is where I hung the sensor - about 6" under the light, but not directly beneath it (although pretty close).



And this is how it looks with the tray in there - still an inch or two of space on each side, and you can see that I've cleaned the tray out pretty well - pretty spotless.



This is a pic of the 50 gallon Rubbermaid reservoir that I picked up today underneath the table - about 4 to 5" of space, but whatever the number, I'm 100% sure I'll have enough room.



A pic of the reservoir - actually went for the Sterilite 45 gallon reservoir, but the Rubbermaid was 2" shorter, darker, and held five more gallons..................just one little problem............



For some reason, the makers of this decided to put holes right in the handle - a phucking annoyance, if you ask me. Clearly need to figure out how to make them waterproof.



So let's talk CO2 - the floor where the tank is has a tilt, so I had to flatten it out with that cardboard.



So this a pic of the regulator that I screwed on; couldn't have been easier. Just plugged it into the Sentinel and (I assume) it's good to go.



Where the CO2 plug is on the Sentinel.



Pic of the valve that exhausts the actual CO2 - same diameter as any airpump tubing would be.



The regulator came with 12' of "CO2 Tubing"; my issue was that the tank was outside of the tent, so I didn't want tubing outside shooting CO2 wherever, so I used some general aquarium air pump tubing to run it into the tent.

Had to use a "T" fitting to another "T" fitting to run to the specialized tubing (once the specialized tubing was already in the grow tent).



Pics of the "special" tubing running at the top of the tent - CO2's heavier then air, so you want the tubing to be high.



So this is what I did about the holes in the handle of my rez - took a cheapo vinyle placemat from Walmart and cut pieces out to cover the parts that had holes (on the outside of the rez)..............after that dried, took some aquarium sealant and bombarded the inside of the rez with it - pretty sure that it should work, but I'll know more tomorrow.........




Anyhow, that's about it for now - just about 100% setup for flowering, clones should be totally rooted in 2-3 days, still planning on starting flowering on Novemer 8th, +/- 3 days.


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## DND (Oct 31, 2009)

Finally some flowering action starting up soon. That sealant should hold up just fine, I did my aero tub the same way and no leaks. I will say that you wont want to fill that thing up that high, it will bow and eventually break. About 4" under the handle is about where I was comfortable with... I tried to run 32 plants DWC style in that same tub, not a good plan. You could get another and double it up, that would work.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 31, 2009)

DND said:


> Finally some flowering action starting up soon. That sealant should hold up just fine, I did my aero tub the same way and no leaks. I will say that you wont want to fill that thing up that high, it will bow and eventually break. About 4" under the handle is about where I was comfortable with... I tried to run 32 plants DWC style in that same tub, not a good plan. You could get another and double it up, that would work.


Funny you mention about it breaking - actually planning on building a wooden frame around it to help it keep its shape when it's filled with water.

Planning on getting about 40 gallons in there, so need to see how high that is.

Glad to hear that you think the sealant will hold though.

DND, did you see that I ordered the RO filter in order to be a true Lucas-ite?


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## DND (Oct 31, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Funny you mention about it breaking - actually planning on building a wooden frame around it to help it keep its shape when it's filled with water.
> 
> Planning on getting about 40 gallons in there, so need to see how high that is.
> 
> ...


Good call on the frame, that will work great. I didn't catch you were buying RO, must have been skimming too fast. That's sweet tho man, I cannot say how simple and effective the formula truly is. I think you will have even more success using RO as far ph/ppm's staying very steady and predictable. Even with tap water I don't have too much, but I'm guessing you'll have even less. 

I'll admit, I was skeptical about the formula at first. What concerned me was putting my clones directly into 1300ppm and using one nutrient without additives, I thought for sure they would burn, die or show lack of something. Proof is in the pudding...in all my pics, not a single burn or deficency to date. And I'm thinking my yield will be decent too. 

Are you using the one bottle FloraNova Bloom or the micro/bloom from the 3 part GH series?


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## Bob Smith (Oct 31, 2009)

DND said:


> Good call on the frame, that will work great. I didn't catch you were buying RO, must have been skimming too fast. That's sweet tho man, I cannot say how simple and effective the formula truly is. I think you will have even more success using RO as far ph/ppm's staying very steady and predictable. Even with tap water I don't have too much, but I'm guessing you'll have even less.
> 
> I'll admit, I was skeptical about the formula at first. What concerned me was putting my clones directly into 1300ppm and using one nutrient without additives, I thought for sure they would burn, die or show lack of something. Proof is in the pudding...in all my pics, not a single burn or deficency to date. And I'm thinking my yield will be decent too.
> 
> Are you using the one bottle FloraNova Bloom or the micro/bloom from the 3 part GH series?


Yeah, hoping that the frame will allow me to fill up the tub pretty darn high, but we'll see.

As far as the RO filter goes, I ordered this one:

http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemMatrix.asp?GroupCode=WTROSTL00&MatrixType=1

And as far as using the 3 part or just the Nova bloom, I'm thinking just the Nova bloom - simpler is better, no?

Also, you got any guesses on your yield yet? Still shooting for 2 elbows or scaling back your expectations a bit?

And I went shopping today - got a dehumidifier for the tent:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=11860254#ShortReviewTitleBar

Going to HD in a bit to get some wood and other knicknacks, and am also going to pickup a small space heater for in the tent - at that point I'll probably be done.

For now.


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## rbahadosingh (Oct 31, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, hoping that the frame will allow me to fill up the tub pretty darn high, but we'll see.
> 
> As far as the RO filter goes, I ordered this one:
> 
> ...


Nice thread bob. Make sure the dehumidifier has an auto restart feature when the power goes off. Most of the ones with electronic controls dont and have to be restarted manually. I got mine from Best Buy. its a frigidaire 25pint as well but the controlls are not electronic its the old school turn nob. http://reviews.bestbuy.com/3545/9201115/reviews.htm

Also Bob i would hang the sensor for the controller lower and closer to the canopy. The temp that close to the light will definately be higher than at the canopy. So your readings wouldn't be completely right.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 31, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> Nice thread bob. Make sure the dehumidifier has an auto restart feature when the power goes off. Most of the ones with electronic controls dont and have to be restarted manually. I got mine from Best Buy. its a frigidaire 25pint as well but the controlls are not electronic its the old school turn nob. http://reviews.bestbuy.com/3545/9201115/reviews.htm
> 
> Also Bob i would hang the sensor for the controller lower and closer to the canopy. The temp that close to the light will definately be higher than at the canopy. So your readings wouldn't be completely right.


Lol, just to reinforce my stalking reputation, I have the EXACT same dehumidifier - old school nob and all that 

And as far as the sensor goes, I might do that, gonna play it by ear - do temp checks at different spots and go from there - I'm gonna try to run a little cooler then you (you were in the mid to high 80s, if memory serves); I'm gonna try to keep it from about 78-82, but I need to run everything first to see how plausible that is.

Just got back from HD, gonna put together the frame for the reservoir real quick before the Phil's game.


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## Twils (Oct 31, 2009)

DAMN Bob! Your set up is off the hook my friend. Definitely great job , and the persistence paid off that's for sure!

Your on the right track my friend!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 31, 2009)

Twils said:


> DAMN Bob! Your set up is off the hook my friend. Definitely great job , and the persistence paid off that's for sure!
> 
> Your on the right track my friend!
> 
> Burn on!


Thanks buddy, appreciate it 

BTW, your flowering pics are sick from the other day........talk about a great job


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## DND (Oct 31, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, hoping that the frame will allow me to fill up the tub pretty darn high, but we'll see.
> 
> As far as the RO filter goes, I ordered this one:
> 
> ...


Good choice on the RO system. 

YES, use the 1 part for simplicity...it's the same thing. Make sure you shake the shit out of it before every use, it's thick stuff.

I'm still shooting for 2lbs and I will probably get it with the addition of the 2 bigger plants, but not from the tub alone. If I do, I'll be thankful and surprised. The reason is simply environment, I'm in the garage and can't control the variables 100%. Although everything is within tolerance, when it gets colder out it will become an issue. Soon I will move this into a room once I have the space.


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## tmsculli (Nov 1, 2009)

Hey Bob are you actually growing plants anymore or are you turning your garage into a museum of the cultivation of marijuana. "On your left you'll see the flowering tent, look there is his new dehumidifier. Here you see the CO2 tanks, very nice, aren't they?" hahaha

Just busting your balls brother, you are getting serious sir, I can't wait to see the outcome.


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## duke23 (Nov 1, 2009)

Man i can't wait to see them nypd growing and flowering!!!!!!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 4, 2009)

About the lack of updates; been busy making progress and taking lots of pics, but I've misplaced my USB cord for my camera.

Will do a full update (a big one) with pics as soon as I find it - long story short, my veg tent is a fugging jungle and I need my RO filter to get here ASAP.

Flowering tent is 100% setup, just running some tests and whatnot on it now.


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## Integra21 (Nov 4, 2009)

Looking forward to it Bob. Your luck finally turned around. I hhad a little luck myself, I have never seen a plant flower so fast as my Mango has. Get on top of that update though, no stegulating, wating in anticipation to see how it all turned out.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 4, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Looking forward to it Bob. Your luck finally turned around. I hhad a little luck myself, I have never seen a plant flower so fast as my Mango has. Get on top of that update though, no stegulating, wating in anticipation to see how it all turned out.


Will do buddy, although it's not that much new stuff - just a couple of modifications to the flowering tent and the veg tent getting overrun, mainly by the super skunk.

The update from a few days ago (#30 is the one with the most "goodness", IMHO.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 4, 2009)

Number 308 is what I'm trying to type, and it keeps on turning it into a smiley face.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 4, 2009)

Seems as though the temps in the tent run about 12 degrees over the ambient room temp with just the fan cooling the light, which I can definitely work with (those temps are about 8" directly under the light, so can even take 3 or 4 degrees off that for what they'll be at the plant canopy).

With the exhaust/intake fans running they're about six degrees over ambient temp.

All quite acceptable to me.

Just one little issue that I'm having now, and that's with my CO2 - I'm guessing that the loud hissing sound that I hear is not too good, and probably indicates that my regulator is not on there tight enough.

The PPM went from 400 before I turned it on to "1250" then to "2475" and then to "CO2 Too High" within a matter of about four seconds.

Anyways, gonna go detach the regulator/solenoid/whatever the fuck it's called from the tank and then re-tighten it with the tool that you use to tighten things (not pliers, the other thing).

Anyways, just wanted to give you guys a heads up that if you never hear from me again that I died from CO2 inhalation and that you're all welcome to sue Titan on my behalf.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 4, 2009)

I'm alive, just needed to tighten it.

All's working well now - just waiting on this fucking RO filter to get delivered.

The day that happens I'm gonna put the clones in the tent to veg 24/7 and try to catchup to where the seedlings are.


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## Twils (Nov 4, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> About the lack of updates; been busy making progress and taking lots of pics, but I've misplaced my USB cord for my camera.
> 
> Will do a full update (a big one) with pics as soon as I find it - long story short, my veg tent is a fugging jungle and I need my RO filter to get here ASAP.
> 
> Flowering tent is 100% setup, just running some tests and whatnot on it now.



Right on my friend! Can't wait to see this work of art!

Burn on!


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## RevoEvo (Nov 5, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> *Disclaimer: This is all purely fictional and for the readers enjoyment.
> **This is a wordy post.
> Well ladies and gents, after a ten year hiatus to pretend to do grownup things, Im back in the saddle.got some seeds from some killer weed which will be going into the system first to make sure all systems are go, and I also have Bubblelicious, New York Power Diesel, and Super Skunk going right now (germed about five days ago after receiving from Nirvana about a week after my order).
> First lemme give you a rundown of what I know, and then I can talk about my setup a little bit.
> ...


 
How are you cooling it besides air cooled lights? I have a tent of similiar size and am having heat problems. Is your portable A/C hooked up inside the the tent?


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

RevoEvo said:


> How are you cooling it besides air cooled lights? I have a tent of similiar size and am having heat problems. Is your portable A/C hooked up inside the the tent?


Which tent are you talking about?

Not having temp problems in either right now, and also have not purchased my portable AC yet.


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## Integra21 (Nov 5, 2009)

He was just asking how you cool yours, because he has a tent like yours and its getting too hot. He was trying to get help.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> He was just asking how you cool yours, because he has a tent like yours and its getting too hot. He was trying to get help.


Yeah, got that, just wasn't sure which tent he was referring to.

I have different ventilation setups for each - the veg tent has a 6" fan which is responsible for aircooling the light and also for exhaust from the tent, with a 4" for intake.

The flowering tent has a 6" dedicated to cooling the light, and another 6" hooked up to a filter for exhaust and then a 4" for intake.

The temps in the veg tent run about 3 or 4 degrees over ambient room temp with the fans going, and the flowering tent runs about 12 degrees over ambient with just the light being cooled and about 6 degrees over ambient with all three fans working.

BTW, found the USB cord (my girl did, anyways), so I'll have a pic update in a bit.


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## Integra21 (Nov 5, 2009)

Sweet. Still want to see that final product, going back to look at that post from earlier, didnt make it around to it yesterday.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

The title says it all; kinda in a holding period - gonna start the clones vegging in the flower tent as soon as the RO filter gets here (cancelled the order with the site it was ordered from by my hydro store because they didn't have it in stock and I just went ahead and ordered one off of Ebay - figure a filter isn't gonna have the feds knocking down my door).

Hoping within two or three days to have them in there, veg for a few days (really have no idea how quick they're gonna grow vegging under a 1000 24/7 while also getting blasted with 1300PPM nutes and 1500PPM CO2, but I'm guessing "fast").

Then when they almost catchup to the seedlings, gonna top them all at about 6 or 8 inches, tie the two colas to bamboo stakes, veg them for a couple of days, and then flip the switch.

So call it November 15th as the start of 12/12 (best guess as of now, anyways).

So that's kinda the state of the union, now onto some pics.



A couple pics of me testing out the frame I built around the reservir - works like a charm, if I do say so myself. This is a pretty popular size, so if anyone needs the measurements of the framee to make their own, just lemme know and I'll dig them up.



These are pics from Monday of the veg tent - growth is getting to be outta control and the seedlings are definitely cramped with their spacing at three or four to a bucket right now - not ideal, but only another few days or a week and they'll be in the flowering tent with all the room they need.



Also from Monday - you can see that the clones are rooting (some of the sativa ones are coming along quite slowly), and the second pic is of a Bubblelicious rootzone (the weakest of the three strains).



A couple of pics of the tent without the tray in it - as you can see, intake fan, reservoir, heater, and dehumidifier are all "hidden" underneath the tray - seems to be working well so far 



Drilled these lids yesterday - the twenty clones were hella cramped in the corner in one bucket, so I decided to change up the setup in the veg tent and get the clones enough space and as close to the light as possible to help them catchup (and also try to retard the growth of the seedlings).



So the first two pics are what the tent looked like before the switch yesterday - see the clones cramped and hidden in the corner? Not good for them catching up, obviously - the third pic is the new setup with the clones being front and center.




While doing the "musical buckets" change, found some issues - every bucket had algae to some degree or another in it, and then the one mama bucket that I changed out had those dead little gnats in it.

Not sure when, but definitely switching up my veg tent to two levels with the top being either an E&F or a drip system for vegging clones (under the 400) and the bottom being mamas and new cuttings under fluoros in an as yet unknown growing system. Kinda had it with DWC - the growth is still fine (outstanding, actually), but it's just too much work with more then one or two plants (IMHO, anyways).



Here's the plumbing from the tray to rez - tightened everything as tight as humanly possible and then used aquarium sealant (which I'm a MASSIVE fan of now, BTW) - NO LEAKS!!



And here's a test "fill" of the tray - it's tilted a little bit towards the front right, but nothing that a little cardboard under the legs won't fix.

So that's about it; as always, comments, questions, and insults are more then welcome.


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## Integra21 (Nov 5, 2009)

I wouldnt go that high on the ppms for the clones. It will burn them out for sure. id stick to 700ppm or less till they're at least a foot tall. Otherwise, looking great.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> I wouldnt go that high on the ppms for the clones. It will burn them out for sure. id stick to 700ppm or less till they're at least a foot tall. Otherwise, looking great.


Thanks for the compliment 

However, as far as the clones go, they rooted in 750PPM solution, and yesterday I bumped it up to a 1000PPM - haven't seen any burning of leaves at all (some yellowing of the sativa clones, but that's to be expected with clones, and is not related to nute burn).

Anyhow, I was actually thinking of going higher with the clones, like something in the 1500-1600 range, but was gonna keep it at 1300 to be "safe".

With a reasonable root system, 1000 watts, and CO2 at 1500PPM, I'm pretty sure that 1300PPM is gonna be pretty easy for them.

That being said, I'll obviously monitor their leaf edges closely. 

Also, off-topic, was thinking of asking the moderator to move this thread to "growroom design and setup", at which point I'd open up a new thread (an actual "grow journal") for my flowering phase - anyone have thoughts on that?


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## Integra21 (Nov 5, 2009)

Cool, if its working for you, keep on going. I know when I get above 1100ppm, my girls start to burn, but thats with a 400w and unknow co2 ppm. But all of that will change in the next month or so, if I can pull it off, trying to upgrade to dual 600w's with a hydrogen running of a sentinel. But only time will tell.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Cool, if its working for you, keep on going. I know when I get above 1100ppm, my girls start to burn, but thats with a 400w and unknow co2 ppm. But all of that will change in the next month or so, if I can pull it off, trying to upgrade to dual 600w's with a hydrogen running of a sentinel. But only time will tell.


Dual 6's, huh? That's beast-like right thurr kiddo 

And what do you mean "hydrogen"? Light?

After a harvest or two, gonna get rid of this 4x4 tent and upgrade to an 8x4 with two 1Ks..........but like you, time will tell


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## Integra21 (Nov 5, 2009)

Hydrogen is a propane powered, water cooled co2 generator. Around me it is just easier to exchange a propane tank than to fill my co2 and It's a little cheaper. Price is reasonable to. I am going to try it out with my makshift res chiller I told you about a couple of weeks ago, and if that doesnt work, I'll do drain to waste off of city water. Here's a link to the cheapes place online to buy it and there's also a video at the bottom of the page for it:
http://www.growlightexpress.com/carbon-dioxide-co2-31/hydrogen-water-cooled-co2-generator-lp-113.html


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## DND (Nov 5, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Hydrogen is a propane powered, water cooled co2 generator. Around me it is just easier to exchange a propane tank than to fill my co2 and It's a little cheaper. Price is reasonable to. I am going to try it out with my makshift res chiller I told you about a couple of weeks ago, and if that doesnt work, I'll do drain to waste off of city water. Here's a link to the cheapes place online to buy it and there's also a video at the bottom of the page for it:
> http://www.growlightexpress.com/carbon-dioxide-co2-31/hydrogen-water-cooled-co2-generator-lp-113.html


That is some crazy shit, you should def. start a thread and let us see that thing working.

Bob: Those clones will be fine @ 1300ppm. I questioned myself for days and feared I would lose my whole grow, but I bit the bullet and I haven't looked back. No burn, deficiencies... Only healthy, hardy fast growing plants. Did you get the RO system yet? They must be walking it you. Lol.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

DND said:


> That is some crazy shit, you should def. start a thread and let us see that thing working.
> 
> Bob: Those clones will be fine @ 1300ppm. I questioned myself for days and feared I would lose my whole grow, but I bit the bullet and I haven't looked back. No burn, deficiencies... Only healthy, hardy fast growing plants. Did you get the RO system yet? They must be walking it you. Lol.


No dice on the RO filter yet, hoping within 2-3 days.

Also DND, glad you stopped by, cuz I gots a question for ya - did you light-proof your rez? I wasn't gonna, but am now figuring I might as well - just curious if you did or not and whether you think it needs it (since we have the exact same one).


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

Kinda annoyed that there's nothing else to buy for my flowering tent , so I'm looking at seeds online right now.

Unless I hear something from someone which sways my mind, going to order these four strains from Nirvana (feminized) tonight:

AK-48
Ice
Master Kush
Wonder Woman

All are indica dominant (short flowering) and heavy yielders, which is really all I'm looking for, as long as they're reasonably potent (I'm sure they all will be).

So, anyone have any thoughts? Good, bad, or otherwise? I'm fairly loyal to Nirvana because I've only ever used them and also been very pleased every time I have, so I'm gonna stay with them.


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## steelherman (Nov 5, 2009)

I only can give two options Big Bang or White Rino cause thats I've grown? Ice ...not feeling that.... GOT CHEESE


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

Ice (9 and Master Kush (94) are both Cannabis Cup award winners.

I like that for bag appeal, truthfully.

Also the Wonder Woman is kinda non-negotiable because that's supposed to have ludicrous yields, so I'll definitely wanna do a harvest of that to see what I can max out at for weight.

And AK-48 just cuz of the short flowering and that I've heard good things about it.


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## DND (Nov 5, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> No dice on the RO filter yet, hoping within 2-3 days.
> 
> Also DND, glad you stopped by, cuz I gots a question for ya - did you light-proof your rez? I wasn't gonna, but am now figuring I might as well - just curious if you did or not and whether you think it needs it (since we have the exact same one).


I didn't, with the top being black and the number of plants in there...little if any light would get into the rez. If you have time tho, it's a good idea. Eliminates one less thing you have to worry about.


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## DND (Nov 5, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Kinda annoyed that there's nothing else to buy for my flowering tent , so I'm looking at seeds online right now.
> 
> Unless I hear something from someone which sways my mind, going to order these four strains from Nirvana (feminized) tonight:
> 
> ...


I can cosign for Master Kush, AK-48 and Ice...grew them all and they are all great. The only thing I would warn about is them being feminized. Nirvana has just recently started releasing the feminized versions and Im not sure about their stability. I know its a pain in the ass to grow them all from seed and have to sex them, but well worth it. You know a female is going to be a female without the chance of turning hermie. Just my .02


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

DND said:


> I didn't, with the top being black and the number of plants in there...little if any light would get into the rez. If you have time tho, it's a good idea. Eliminates one less thing you have to worry about.


Yeah, figured as much, was just looking for an excuse to not do it.

I'm lazy.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 5, 2009)

DND said:


> I can cosign for Master Kush, AK-48 and Ice...grew them all and they are all great. The only thing I would warn about is them being feminized. Nirvana has just recently started releasing the feminized versions and Im not sure about their stability. I know its a pain in the ass to grow them all from seed and have to sex them, but well worth it. You know a female is going to be a female without the chance of turning hermie. Just my .02


Good point - I'll do some more research on that.

The current seeds I have are "normal", but if all else is equal, I'd rather pay the money to ensure that any plant I put into my flowering tent is going to be a female and flower for me.

But if the chances of being hermie are increased, I'll probably just buy "normal" again.

Hmmmmmmmmm................more research is needed.


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## Integra21 (Nov 5, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Kinda annoyed that there's nothing else to buy for my flowering tent , so I'm looking at seeds online right now.
> 
> Unless I hear something from someone which sways my mind, going to order these four strains from Nirvana (feminized) tonight:
> 
> ...


Well, I dont know if you ordered yet, But Sannie has some incredible strains at very good prices. They are not availible in fem, but the price reflects that. Here is my next set to grab in about a month with links:

Madonna
http://www.sanniesshop.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=741

CheeseBerry Haze
http://www.sanniesshop.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=746

New Blue Diesel
http://www.sanniesshop.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=748

It is a Holland based company that will deliver to the us. They have freebies with every order and he has some great grows showing off his genetics. Check out the link to the grow we just finished with one of the new PLS(Plasma Light) and his Jackberry.
https://www.opengrow.com/index.php?showtopic=40312&st=20


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## tmsculli (Nov 6, 2009)

Your setup looks awesome brother. I am glad you are getting it all together. It looks really really good and I can't wait to see how well E&F treats you


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## Bob Smith (Nov 6, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Your setup looks awesome brother. I am glad you are getting it all together. It looks really really good and I can't wait to see how well E&F treats you


Thanks man, appreciate it.

Just waiting on this RO filter to get delivered and it's "go" time.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 6, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Well, I dont know if you ordered yet, But Sannie has some incredible strains at very good prices. They are not availible in fem, but the price reflects that. Here is my next set to grab in about a month with links:
> 
> Madonna
> http://www.sanniesshop.com/product_info.php?currency=USD&products_id=741
> ...


Thanks for the links, Integra - the "normal" versions of these are actually more expensive then the fem'd strains I'm planning on buying.

Need to do some more research on hermies/fem'd seeds before I can make my decision.


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## Integra21 (Nov 6, 2009)

My white widow seeds were femed and none hermied on me, but a buddy grew out the same seeds and had 9/10 hermie on him. So alone if the plants are taken care of they were fine, but we never figured out what he did to stress them. But obviously he did something. The general idea is that fem seeds are always more likely to hermie under stress than regular seeds.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 6, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> My white widow seeds were femed and none hermied on me, but a buddy grew out the same seeds and had 9/10 hermie on him. So alone if the plants are taken care of they were fine, but we never figured out what he did to stress them. But obviously he did something. The general idea is that fem seeds are always more likely to hermie under stress than regular seeds.


Hmmmmmmm......................I'm thinking I might just buy some "normal" seeds then............get more (10 instead of 5) and they cost less...........could just pop five at a time, throw the best four into the tent with my "real crop", and then pick a mama from that.

That way I'll always have my 25 plants flowering, plus I can squeeze the additional four in there to sex and then flower to check out their characteristics.

Thanks man, just saved me some research time 

Yup, that's what I'm gonna do.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 6, 2009)

No Wonder Woman because that only came as a feminized seed - figure with these three and the three I already have, I should be good in case I ever need to move and shut down my op for a bit - six strains is plenty, methinks, and since I only pop five beans at a time, I'll have five beans of each strain remaining.

Item Sku Qty Subtotal *AK-48 (10 seeds)* AK48 1 $ 27.95 *Ice (10 seeds)* Ice 1 $ 27.95 *Master Kush (10 seeds)* MK 1 $ 27.95 Subtotal $ 83.85 Shipping & Handling $ 7.47 Tax $ 0.00 *Grand Total* *$ 91.32*


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## Bob Smith (Nov 6, 2009)

Will probably be here Monday, and at the latest Tuesday.

As soon as I get that thing hooked up and get 40-45 gallons from it, the clones are going into the flowering tent to veg (Wednesday at the latest).

Just a heads up.


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## Integra21 (Nov 6, 2009)

and you said the prices were better. Thats a dollar cheaper for 2/3 strains. But you got some good ones. Lets see that ice grow dude. That was one I thought about for a while.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 6, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> and you said the prices were better. Thats a dollar cheaper for 2/3 strains. But you got some good ones. Lets see that ice grow dude. That was one I thought about for a while.


Yeah, I'm excited as well - and I told you, I'm loyal to Nirvana - never had a problem with them and I feel that 90%+ of the difference people claim between breeders/strains is marketing hype.

"If it ain't broke, don't fix it".


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## Twils (Nov 6, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> No Wonder Woman because that only came as a feminized seed - figure with these three and the three I already have, I should be good in case I ever need to move and shut down my op for a bit - six strains is plenty, methinks, and since I only pop five beans at a time, I'll have five beans of each strain remaining.
> 
> Item Sku Qty Subtotal *AK-48 (10 seeds)* AK48 1 $ 27.95 *Ice (10 seeds)* Ice 1 $ 27.95  *Master Kush (10 seeds)* MK 1 $ 27.95 Subtotal $ 83.85 Shipping & Handling $ 7.47 Tax $ 0.00 *Grand Total* *$ 91.32*



Very nice! You'll like the Ice. 

Your room is looking great Bob, all that hard work is finally starting to pay off, great job, can't wait to see it full of beautiful ladies now!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 7, 2009)

Twils said:


> Very nice! You'll like the Ice.
> 
> Your room is looking great Bob, all that hard work is finally starting to pay off, great job, can't wait to see it full of beautiful ladies now!
> 
> Burn on!


Thanks for stopping by and thanks for the compliments 

FYI, the room's gonna be seeing some real action sometime on Tuesday - filter's delivered Monday, so installing that and then running it long enough to get me the 40-45 gallons I'll need will most likely take me into Tuesday - but, have been running the room all day today and the temps staying between 74-78 and the PPM are in-between 1450-1600 constantly - no exhaust has kicked on at all, which I like a lot.


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## Twils (Nov 7, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Thanks for stopping by and thanks for the compliments
> 
> FYI, the room's gonna be seeing some real action sometime on Tuesday - filter's delivered Monday, so installing that and then running it long enough to get me the 40-45 gallons I'll need will most likely take me into Tuesday - *but, have been running the room all day today and the temps staying between 74-78 and the PPM are in-between 1450-1600 constantly - no exhaust has kicked on at all, which I like a lot.*


No problem my friend!

Now that's freaking sweet, Nice job on the construction! Its going to pay off very nicely!

The sentinel does everything related to temp, humidity, and ppm's correct?


Burn on!


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## goofygolfer (Nov 8, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Thanks DUDE!, happy to have you aboard.
> 
> So I'm obviously back from the stores and have been doing some tinkering; I'd tell you exactly what went down but pics show it better.
> 
> ...


step drill bits work great


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## wonderblunder (Nov 9, 2009)

Nice grow. Don't have time to read it all right now, so i will be back... scribed......


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## Bob Smith (Nov 9, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> Nice grow. Don't have time to read it all right now, so i will be back... scribed......


The abridged version is "spent lots of money, lots of failures trying different bubbler setups, then decided to go E&F for flowering".

The End 

But anyways, happy to have you aboard, and to anyone else reading, just getting things ready before my filter is delivered today - basically just last minute things, taping up the rez and grabbing a bottle of Floranova Bloom from the hydro store.

That and cleaning my other Rubbermaid full of hydroton and then I'm ready to install it as soon as the filter gets delivered - with any luck have the clones vegging in there before I go to bed, but more likely tomorrow morning.

Also having an issue with the sativa mom - been noticing it for a couple of days now, but seeing as how I'm 90% that she's not going to be needed further, I haven't really cared about it.

That being said, I guess it would behoove me to figure it out in case it reappears in the future with a plant that I want to keep.

Gonna have a pic update as soon as the clones are vegging, so stay tuned.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 9, 2009)

I am feeling you. I have spent a assload on hydro stuff, and then to timid to make the switch. I build some nice E and F tables that I don't even have a place for. I am condo living right, now thus cannot make any changes that are too permanent to the house. Should have a workshop, or warehouse space to grow in by january. That will be the day.......washing hydroton.......I hate it....... I will read the whole thread this evening and then post..... Glad to be here, thanks for having me. Judging by the first post we have somewhat similar setups.......


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## Bob Smith (Nov 9, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> I am feeling you. I have spent a assload on hydro stuff, and then to timid to make the switch. I build some nice E and F tables that I don't even have a place for. I am condo living right, now thus cannot make any changes that are too permanent to the house. Should have a workshop, or warehouse space to grow in by january. That will be the day.......washing hydroton.......I hate it....... I will read the whole thread this evening and then post..... Glad to be here, thanks for having me. Judging by the first post we have somewhat similar setups.......


Very nice to have you aboard, my friend.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 9, 2009)

What is the difference between the New York City Power Diesel (funny: NYPD) and NYCD


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## Bob Smith (Nov 9, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> What is the difference between the New York City Power Diesel (funny: NYPD) and NYCD


"NYCD"? Do you mean ""NYSD"? Because I believe the "power diesel" is simply a knock-off of "sour diesel"; not sure what you mean by "CD".


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## wonderblunder (Nov 9, 2009)

New York City Diesel. I believe is the original strain....... then I was thinking sour diesel and pwer diesel came off it? I have no clue, I was wondering.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 9, 2009)

Well, the filter's here - this thing is much, much bigger then I thought it'd be.

They also thoughtfully didn't include any large screws to mount it, so I'm off to Home Depot to grab some of those.

Will have pics up sometime tomorrow; wish me luck on this installation, this looks a little more complicated then I'd bargained for.


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## Integra21 (Nov 9, 2009)

just read the instructions and make sure you have the water hooked up, the drain line ran, and your output where you want it and be ready for the wait of filling a res with ro. Mine takes 4 hours for a 5gal bucket.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 9, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> just read the instructions and make sure you have the water hooked up, the drain line ran, and your output where you want it and be ready for the wait of filling a res with ro. Mine takes 4 hours for a 5gal bucket.


Yeah, I stand corrected - aside from the mounting of it, the rest was pretty fugging easy - it's running now, going to let it "flush" itself (as per the manual) for a half hour, and then take a sample pH and TDS reading.

Hoping for 6.0 and anywhere from 25-50, but we'll see - my tap water was 7.5/150 before.

Integra, how do you know how fast to pump water through it?

Mine says that 90PSI is the max water pressure, but I don't have a meter for it - just turned the hose on a very, very light pressure.

Sound about right?


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## Integra21 (Nov 9, 2009)

Water pressure in pipes is always below that. You should be able to have the hose full open with no problems.Trust me when I say you want as much pressure as you can. you'll know if the pressure is too high by the ppms. But pressure is almost never too high strait off of the lines. they say that max for people that hook up pumps to try to get higher flow rates. With that as the start point, my guess is around 7.0ph/3-9ppm's. But we'll see in a little bit. My base is 7.3ph/330ppm and after ro is 6.8ph/9ppm.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 9, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Water pressure in pipes is always below that. You should be able to have the hose full open with no problems.Trust me when I say you want as much pressure as you can. you'll know if the pressure is too high by the ppms. But pressure is almost never too high strait off of the lines. they say that max for people that hook up pumps to try to get higher flow rates. With that as the start point, my guess is around 7.0ph/3-9ppm's. But we'll see in a little bit. My base is 7.3ph/330ppm and after ro is 6.8ph/9ppm.


Not sure why, but I assumed that RO water had a pH closer to 6.0 - 6.2...................somehow my pH went up (to 8.0), and my PPMs are at about 3-5.

Oh well, that sucks - was hoping the filter meant that I could throw out my bottle of pH Down, but I guess that's certainly not the case.

Lol, probably would not have bought it knowing what I know now, but such is life.

At least I've got really pure water now 

Anyways, gonna get 45 gallons of pure water tonight and load up the tent tomorrow morning.

Pics will come after.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 9, 2009)

Just got caught up........ Looks good.. Lots of money spent... hope the results are good. Im here for the road........


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## Bob Smith (Nov 9, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> Just got caught up........ Looks good.. Lots of money spent... hope the results are good. Im here for the road........


Glad to have you, friend.

BTW, no one told you that you can only get great herb by spending obnoxious amounts of money? C'mon dude, that's Gardening 101 

Anyways, hoping the investment pays off and then some, but only time will tell.


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## Twils (Nov 10, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Not sure why, but I assumed that RO water had a pH closer to 6.0 - 6.2...................somehow my pH went up (to 8.0), and my PPMs are at about 3-5.
> 
> Oh well, that sucks - was hoping the filter meant that I could throw out my bottle of pH Down, but I guess that's certainly not the case.
> 
> ...



Glad to see your filter came in and you got it up and running.

I've been thinking about switching from distilled water and getting a RO filter, but if its raising pH I'd rather not , as the pH of my tap water is already at 8.5.

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 10, 2009)

Twils said:


> Glad to see your filter came in and you got it up and running.
> 
> I've been thinking about switching from distilled water and getting a RO filter, but if its raising pH I'd rather not , as the pH of my tap water is already at 8.5.
> 
> Burn on!


Well I think it raising pH in my case is more the exception then the rule - as Integra said, his pH went down, and that seems to be the "norm" - anyways, I did some reading on it and got some scientific mumbo jumbo - if anyone's interested, check out the link.

Now, meant to get up at about 4:00am and turn the water back on (just didn't feel right leaving it running all night), but didn't do that, so probably won't have my forty gallons until sometime this afternoon - no worries, just doing some more prep work.

Also, good thing I'm changing the nutes today because these little bitches have a nice little mg deficiency happening right now.

http://www.watertechonline.com/detail.asp?Parent_ID=138441


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## Twils (Nov 10, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Well I think it raising pH in my case is more the exception then the rule - as Integra said, his pH went down, and that seems to be the "norm" - anyways, I did some reading on it and got some scientific mumbo jumbo - if anyone's interested, check out the link.
> 
> Now, meant to get up at about 4:00am and turn the water back on (just didn't feel right leaving it running all night), but didn't do that, so probably won't have my forty gallons until sometime this afternoon - no worries, just doing some more prep work.
> 
> ...


Very interesting, thanks for the link. It seems that guy is having the same problem as you?

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 10, 2009)

Seems that way, but that's way too much chemistry for me 

Anyhow, looks like I should have my 40 gallons within the hour - getting somewhat nervous about putting those goobers in there 

Anyways, just doing some last minute checks before the tent's officially christened.

Pics to follow within a few hours.


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## Twils (Nov 10, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Seems that way, but that's way too much chemistry for me
> 
> Anyhow, looks like I should have my 40 gallons within the hour - getting somewhat nervous about putting those goobers in there
> 
> ...



Been so long and so much planning, no stage fright now! 

Can't wait to see this work of art rocking and rolling. Me thinks you'll be super happy and relieved to see that hard work finally paying off!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 10, 2009)

Twils said:


> Been so long and so much planning, no stage fright now!
> 
> Can't wait to see this work of art rocking and rolling. Me thinks you'll be super happy and relieved to see that hard work finally paying off!
> 
> Burn on!


Lol..........yeah, just a touch nervous about the clones dealing with the stronger light, stronger nutes, and 1500PPMs of CO2 all up in their grills, but I'm confident they'll handle it.

Doing some checking to make sure what I'm seeing is actually a mg deficiency (pretty sure it is) while I wait for this fugging filter to gimme some more water - looking like it's gonna be at least a few more hours.

Jesus.

Anyways, I'll do an update in the meantime, and then do another update once I've put them in there.


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## Twils (Nov 10, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol..........yeah, just a touch nervous about the clones dealing with the stronger light, stronger nutes, and 1500PPMs of CO2 all up in their grills, but I'm confident they'll handle it.
> 
> Doing some checking to make sure what I'm seeing is actually a mg deficiency (pretty sure it is) while I wait for this fugging filter to gimme some more water - looking like it's gonna be at least a few more hours.
> 
> ...


I think they will do just fine! Its like telling a crackhead they can't have crack.. Those ladies are gonna go ape sh*t!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 10, 2009)

Title says it all, waiting for my damn filter to give me some more water..........in the meantime, some more setup.......



The bamboo stakes came 6' tall, so I chopped them all in half - have about 150 now - thinking that's plenty (for now ).



Moved my tent about a 1' off of the wall (was flush before) - figure even though I'm a beast and can reach across the 4' tray, might as well make things as easy as possible to access the plants in the back.



Filter came, much larger then I thought it'd be - had to mount it to the wall, and my studs run vertically, so I had to attach a 2x4 to mount the filter to.



The first three pics are setting up the filter and then testing it out; the fourth is the filter running, with the trash can closest catching the runoff and the can further from the filter catching the pure water (the blue hose).



Stuff I picked up today - a 400GPH pump for the tray, because I'd rather use my 630GPH pump for changeouts and whatnot.

Some more foil tape to finish taping up the rez.

Some Floranova Bloom to officially start the Lucas formula.

Finally, some paint mixing sticks - free at Home Depot, and I think they're going to make great water level checkers - the rez is so dark that it's hard to tell, so as I fill it today, I'm going to make marks on the sticks in five gallon increments.



Some pics of the plants - cramped as hell, they could all use a little more space (which they'll have quite shortly, hopefully).



Finally, the largest taping job in the history of man - this took forever, but it's done.

So, that's about it until the ladies go into their new home.

Comments, questions, and suggestions welcome (as always).


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## Bob Smith (Nov 10, 2009)

This damned wait is killing me................you know that feeling when you're getting ready for a trip and you feel like you're forgetting something?

Pretty much like that..............grrrrrrrrr...............anyways, hoping to make my 5:00 flood time.........


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## Bob Smith (Nov 10, 2009)

Getting an EC meter ASAP............tired of waiting on the water, so put 20 galllons in and put 25 gallon's worth of nutes in there.

TDS meter came out to 1100, I said "that can't be, the formula gets you to 1300 and I'm lacking 1/5 of the water required".

Then it dawned on me - my TDS meter must have an NaCl conversion (.5) as opposed to what I moronically assumed it had, (.7).

Well, thankfully nothing too catastrophic came of this, but it certainly helps explain the little nute problem that developed in the past couple of days.

The good news is, after putting the nutes in (no pH down), the pH is sitting right at 5.5. Figure another five gallons should put it right at 5.8, which is absolutely fucking beautiful.

Sorry for the delay, but I'm suffering just like everyone else - patience is not my strongest virtue.

EDIT: Lol.............looked at the back of my TDS meter and it clearly says "Calibrate with NaCl"..............Jesus...............also, added another five gallons of water, and the TDS is 900 (EC of 1.8, we now know ) and the pH is ch-ch-ch-chillin' at 5.6


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## tmsculli (Nov 10, 2009)

Sounds and looks good sir. Those little ladies in the buckets are looking nice and happy.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 11, 2009)

Quick update - the clones are doing okay, but in hindsight, should've not filled the two gallon pots up all the way - some of the smaller root systems don't reach down into the flood zone, so I've been hand watering a couple (planning to be done with that in a day, maybe two).

Also, the reservoir was leaking from one end when I filled it to the tippy top (40 gallons, even though it's called a 50 gallon tote), so it seems as though I'm gonna have to go with about 30ish gallons for the time being (an issue because with the table only half-filled, there's barely enough water to reach the overflow valve).

Lost a clone that I knocked off last night onto the ground and didn't see until an hour ago, shriveled up on the ground (was letting five of them veg for another day or two in the bubbler to get their roots stronger/longer).

Other then that, things seem to be going well - timer's running at 2, 5, 8, and 11 for ten minutes each time (those times are both am and pm while they're vegging).

Definite new growth is already noticeable, I'm gonna try to take pics each day (with some measurements) to document their vegging speed - I guess I'll start with the measurements now (just thought of that as I typed this).

Reservoir is currently at 1.9EC with a pH of 5.6.

Temp is 80 at sensor level, so about 75 at plant height.

CO2 varies between 1400-1600 PPM, humidity is between 50-60%.

Annoyed that I didn't re-wash the hydroton before I transplanted - evidently washing it a week or two ago doesn't preclude oodles and oodles of dust from building up in the interim - need to wash right before I use it for the next batch (nasty hydroton dust is all over the flood table).

Pics are probably not coming tonight because I might be heading to dinner and a movie with Ms. Smith (in which case I'll have the full pic update tomorrow).

All in all, I feel "meh" about it - not pleased about the reservoir leaking, not pleased about having to hand water, and not pleased about the hydroton dust getting everywhere.

I give it a 6.5 out of 10 so far.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 11, 2009)

Sounds like things are going all right there. Hope those problems get cleared up. I just did a lot of work in my room. Take a look at my last pic update in my journal. Added 800 watts......


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

Seems like the plants are getting acclimated, they're not drooping anymore from the watering...........also, the water level is now higher since I felt comfortable filling the reservoir up to 35 gallons (put the side that leaks on the "high" side, so I think I'm okay).

Also, I believe I overestimated the speed with which these plants would veg - there are about six with much more developed root systems that are taking off, but the majority (there's 17 in there now) are gonna take a couple of days to get a sufficient root system before they start taking off - shockingly enough, this pushes my flowering date back yet again - now shooting for the 25th of November (giving myself a little fudge room so I hopefully won't have to push it back again).

Anyways, that's the gist (also the pump seems to be working fine, even with the hydro dust that has undoubtedly been hitting it - seems as though the dust settles in the middle of the table, so I've been removing some every time I go out there (hoping to get most gone within the next couple of days).



Filled the reservoir using a bucket instead of a pump so that I could mark off on the stick the water level at five gallon increments. The full rez that you see was too full, which led to the leak.



A shot of one of the better-rooted clones, where the reservoir gave out (the handles), and what the water looks like with FloraNova Bloom in it (very, very brown, obviously).



Bizarre root system (actually growing mutated leaves underwater), and the first flood with the 15 clones in there.



Random plant shots from late Tuesday night after they were in there for an hour, nothing special.



Random plant shots from five minutes ago - the larger plants are clearly growing, whereas some of the "slower" ones are still getting their sea legs - seems like I'm just about done with having to top feed, though.



A pic of the sludge around the drain, and a pick of how much the table bows when full - the pic doesn't do it justice, must be a good three or four inches when totally filled.

So that's about that, as always, questions/comments appreciated.


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## SpruceZeus (Nov 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Getting an EC meter ASAP............tired of waiting on the water, so put 20 galllons in and put 25 gallon's worth of nutes in there.
> 
> TDS meter came out to 1100, I said "that can't be, the formula gets you to 1300 and I'm lacking 1/5 of the water required".
> 
> ...


I have http://www.canadianwholesalehydroponics.com/products.cfm?p_id=2117&show_details=1&catpage=4 This one.

It is awesome!!! I've never had any problems with it, super easy to clean. Doesn't need calibrating. If you can't tell, i'm a big fan of this meter!!!

Your grow looks very nice. Consider me subscribed.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

SpruceZeus said:


> I have http://www.canadianwholesalehydroponics.com/products.cfm?p_id=2117&show_details=1&catpage=4 This one.
> 
> It is awesome!!! I've never had any problems with it, super easy to clean. Doesn't need calibrating. If you can't tell, i'm a big fan of this meter!!!
> 
> Your grow looks very nice. Consider me subscribed.


Thanks for the link 

Also, I'm ecstatic to have you aboard - need another E&F'er as a sounding board for my moronic ideas 

Also, the journal's quite verbose and lengthy, but if you wanted to scan it, the pics and captions could probably be done in a pretty quick fashion - I tend to ramble, forgetting that everyone's not as interested in my grow as I am 

Again, very happy to have you aboard


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

A gallon of this shit...........

http://www.dfwx.com/h2o2.htm

I was bored.

Now, anyone have any idea how much of it to use per gallon? Only used the 3% before, never the 35%..................figure it's a necessity if I'm trying to go longer without changing my reservoir.


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## SpruceZeus (Nov 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> A gallon of this shit...........
> 
> http://www.dfwx.com/h2o2.htm
> 
> ...


I consider H202 an integral part of my growing system. Usually run it at 10 ml per 18 gal reservoir every 3 days (a little less than 1 ml per gallon).
However, Now that i have discovered fungus gnats in my roots, I've upped the dosage in that table to about 5 ml per gallon.


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## SpruceZeus (Nov 12, 2009)

BTW, I also use 35%


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

Again, thanks much - trying to do the Lucas Formula with as few reservoir changes as possible, so figured this would probably come in handy.

Just to clarify, that 10mL per 18 galon rez is really about .5mL/gallon, and you've now upped it to 5mL/gallon, for a total per 18 gallon rez of 90mL?

Am I understanding that correctly?


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## SpruceZeus (Nov 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Again, thanks much - trying to do the Lucas Formula with as few reservoir changes as possible, so figured this would probably come in handy.
> 
> Just to clarify, that 10mL per 18 galon rez is really about .5mL/gallon, and you've now upped it to 5mL/gallon, for a total per 18 gallon rez of 90mL?
> 
> Am I understanding that correctly?


You are!! 

I shouldn't smoke the White Rhino and try to do any sort of math (in all fairness, a little less than 1 _could_ be half =p ). It never works out for me.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

SpruceZeus said:


> You are!!
> 
> I shouldn't smoke the White Rhino and try to do any sort of math (in all fairness, a little less than 1 _could_ be half =p ). It never works out for me.


Thanks again


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## Integra21 (Nov 12, 2009)

Generically, You use 1tsp/gal for maintience and 1tablespoon/gal for remedy. But remember, it will kill all microbes, good and bad. If you are using any organics in your nutrient soup, don not use h202. Looking great btw Bob. Glad to see you got it all up and running. If you think how fast they're growing now is nuts, give it another week or 2. Once they get 8-12" tall with a decent root ball, they just go nuts, especially with hydro&co2. Cant wait to see these girls take off. How are you liking the Setinel? Still haven't ordered mine yet, but I should be some time mid December. In a months time, you'll forget all the trials and tribulations you went through to get here and you will only see the fantastic results of your labor. Great job and I'm glad you've never gotten too discouraged. If you dont feel comfortable doing it, ok. But I would love to see a video walkthrough of the veg&flower rooms once you get a month or so into flower. If you do, I will to. I just updated my journal last night, if you get bored, check it out. Get a chance to see how fast Mango flowers. Personally, the fastest I've ever seen so far.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Generically, You use 1tsp/gal for maintience and 1tablespoon/gal for remedy. But remember, it will kill all microbes, good and bad. If you are using any organics in your nutrient soup, don not use h202. Looking great btw Bob. Glad to see you got it all up and running. If you think how fast they're growing now is nuts, give it another week or 2. Once they get 8-12" tall with a decent root ball, they just go nuts, especially with hydro&co2. Cant wait to see these girls take off. How are you liking the Setinel? Still haven't ordered mine yet, but I should be some time mid December. In a months time, you'll forget all the trials and tribulations you went through to get here and you will only see the fantastic results of your labor. Great job and I'm glad you've never gotten too discouraged. If you dont feel comfortable doing it, ok. But I would love to see a video walkthrough of the veg&flower rooms once you get a month or so into flower. If you do, I will to. I just updated my journal last night, if you get bored, check it out. Get a chance to see how fast Mango flowers. Personally, the fastest I've ever seen so far.


Good seeing you, homeboy 

As far as organics, you know I stick by the super chem GH Floranova, so no worries on organics being killed - I don't want nuthin' living in my water 

And the Sentinel is probably the best investment I've made to this point - plug everything in, set it, and it's perfect - to my knowledge, that tent has not been exhausted since it's been turned on (a day and a half, about) - just the 6" cooling the light and an oscillating fan to keep the air moving in there, and then the 1500PPM of CO2.

Seems like they (the makers, whoever they are) never got around the producing the computer interface for it (at least that's what I've found looking for it), so that's kind of a bummer, as I'd very much like that to chart and see the trends in temps, humidity, etc. over an extended period.

And I've got no problems doing any kind of a video walkthrough at all - I'm pretty bored right now, maybe I'll go give it a shot (not sure how long of videos this digi camera takes, though).

Anyhow, I'll give it a shot and see what I can do.

Also checked out your journal last night - sucks that you've gotta start with new moms, but better safe then sorry, methinks.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

But the five minute video I did wouldn't upload to my computer, for some reason - gonna go do a few one minute guys and see what I can do.

EDIT: Integra, PM me an email address if you'd like - have seven ~1 minute videos that walk you through the setup, but it doesn't seem like they'll let me post them (too big, obviously).

If anyone knows of a way to remedy this, I'm all ears.


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## duke23 (Nov 12, 2009)

Organic way is the way to go. My friend just finished some white widow and it totally brought the looks,power, and last but most importantly taste. Something about organic that brings out the best of bud... how those power diesel coming along man...


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

duke23 said:


> Organic way is the way to go. My friend just finished some white widow and it totally brought the looks,power, and last but most importantly taste. Something about organic that brings out the best of bud... how those power diesel coming along man...


Coming along well, thanks for asking.

I've grown organic before - didn't see what the hype was about, truthfully, but I can respect your opinion.

Power Diesel are coming along, but nothing like the Super Skunk - those things are beasts.


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## Twils (Nov 12, 2009)

Damn Bob looking good my friend! Glad to see everything up and running, going to be a sick little forest you are gonna have!

*Seems like they (the makers, whoever they are) never got around the producing the computer interface for it (at least that's what I've found looking for it), so that's kind of a bummer, as I'd very much like that to chart and see the trends in temps, humidity, etc. over an extended period.*

^^ I'll try to find the post, but someone on here is writing a PC controlled grow room interface to run on a server, or your local pc. Have to run some errands so I'll look later on.

I believe this is exactly what type of program your wanting, from that description!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

Twils said:


> Damn Bob looking good my friend! Glad to see everything up and running, going to be a sick little forest you are gonna have!
> 
> *Seems like they (the makers, whoever they are) never got around the producing the computer interface for it (at least that's what I've found looking for it), so that's kind of a bummer, as I'd very much like that to chart and see the trends in temps, humidity, etc. over an extended period.*
> 
> ...


Anyone who's interested, PM me for a link to the Youtube videos (7 one minute videos) I did of my setup - not sure about the security of Youtube, so I'm not gonna give the link out to everyone.

Also Twils, I saw that thread that you're thinking of (I think), but I don't believe that would help me too much, but I do appreciated the thought, kid


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## Twils (Nov 12, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Anyone who's interested, PM me for a link to the Youtube videos (7 one minute videos) I did of my setup - not sure about the security of Youtube, so I'm not gonna give the link out to everyone.
> 
> Also Twils, I saw that thread that you're thinking of (I think), but I don't believe that would help me too much, but I do appreciated the thought, kid


Oh ok! I'm sure it's the same one that were both thinking of..

Would love a link to the Youtube Vid!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 12, 2009)

Twils, sent you a PM with it, but after a little searching, seems like Youtube is reasonably safe for keeping my identity safe - lol, just saw that I signed up as a 37 year old female.

Here's the link all - comments, questions, criticisms are always welcome.

And I apologize for the number of times I say "goober" in it; must've been my word of the day today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv55WrkROM0

For the other 6, just click on the "More from SOGBobSmith" dropdown next to the screen.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 13, 2009)

Head to the hydro store to pickup another big ole bag of hydroton (35 gallons, I think).

Transplant two remaining clones (maybe only one if one of them's dead), and also transplant all three of the Bubblelicious and three of the NYPD (if there's enough hydroton for all that) - trying to empty out my veg tent as much as possible, and also wanna see what kind of growth some fully rooted plants get in that tent.

Also heading to Home Depot right now to build a support for the middle of the tray to stop its sagging - just a simple 4x4 beam, nothing too fancy.

Also gonna clean the tray while I have it out, and get rid of that hydro dust everywhere.

If there's some extra hydroton left over, might actually try my hand at cloning some of the Super Skunks directly into the hydroton (taking extra large 8-10" clones) - should be interesting to see how they do with 2.0EC water and 1500PPM of CO2 - kind of a cool little experiment for me, as I'm interested in turning all of my systems into some kind of E&F eventually (including cloning).

Also, going to switch up my flood schedule and make it more frequent then every three hours - either going to go to every two hours, or possibly every hour, not sure - pretty hard to overwater hydroton.

And that's all, for now.


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## tmsculli (Nov 13, 2009)

Hey Bob, videos look awesome man. It's cool to see other people's setups like that. I can't imagine what it would be like to actually have room to move around in haha. To get to my mother and take her ppm and ph I have to crawl in a 1 foot wide area below the SCROG between the box and the tank and then have my arm rest on top of the flower tank and reach in and then I can get the meters in the water haha.


One thing, I thought you suck filters and blow lights?
You appear to be sucking a light?


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## Bob Smith (Nov 13, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Hey Bob, videos look awesome man. It's cool to see other people's setups like that. I can't imagine what it would be like to actually have room to move around in haha. To get to my mother and take her ppm and ph I have to crawl in a 1 foot wide area below the SCROG between the box and the tank and then have my arm rest on top of the flower tank and reach in and then I can get the meters in the water haha.
> 
> 
> One thing, I thought you suck filters and blow lights?
> You appear to be sucking a light?


Yes, that's the preferred method for air flow - in my flower tent that's how they are, blowing through the light and another pulling through the filter.

In the veg tent, because the light's hanging so low, that's not really an option, unfortunately.

The good news is that the veg tent is getting a total makeover sooner rather then later - going to make it two levels, but that discussion is for another day.

Pic update coming, had quite a productive day..........(if I do say so myself)

EDIT: Glad you liked the videos - was actually kinda enjoyable narrating (although it's always weird to hear your voice on tape).


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## Bob Smith (Nov 13, 2009)

So I was pretty productive today..........started off like most days, with me shopping......



Got some hydroton and some SM-90 from the hydro store.

View attachment 619024View attachment 619025View attachment 619026

Also grabbed some wood (4x4s) and clamps from Home Depot to make a support for the middle of my tray so that it didn't bend so much in the middle from the weight of the water and plants, leaving standing water in the tray between floodings - thing works perfectly - I'm very, very pleased 



Obviously had to remove the plants to do this, so took some shots of them with real light so you could see their "actual" color - obviously still some yellow from the light bleaching, but they're recovering.

While I had the tray out, cleaned it out of all that nasty hydro dust that had accumulated in it - pretty pleased with my work, feel like I'm almost getting to be a legit E&F'er these days  (EDIT: pics are at bottom, although I'm sure I'm the only one who cares about a clean tray)



My new method for cleaning hydroton - used a hose nozzle that I bought at Home Depot and sprayed down each strainer-full of hydroton for about a minute or two - again, seemed to work out really well for me (noticing a pattern yet? I was in the zone today)



Pics of one of the Super Skunks - this strain is a fugging beast, all four of them are animals, which is why I had to do what follows...........

View attachment 619043View attachment 619046

EDIT: that plant in the front isn't dead, but it's not doing great - was suffocated by the SS, so might take a bit to come back, but I've got confidence in her.

Transplanted the one remaining clone (the other died, funny story if I ever bother telling it), and also the 3 Bubblelicious and 3 Power Diesels. Now, you may be saying to yourself, "but Bob, that only makes 24, and there's 25 plants in there"............well, that's because.........

View attachment 619052

I took a cutting off of one of the best Super Skunks to see if I can get it to root in there...........should be interesting - certainly not the ideal cloning environment (strong light, nutes, and high CO2), but I'm thinking it'll work out - any guesses?

So, that's about it..............oh, I also reset my timer to flood every two hours (as opposed to every three) - it now floods every even hour, on the hour.

As always, comments, questions, and/or criticisms are welcome.


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## Integra21 (Nov 13, 2009)

Bob is bustin ass today. Getting work done is always good and hopefully leaves you with that sense of accomplishment.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 13, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> Bob is bustin ass today. Getting work done is always good and hopefully leaves you with that sense of accomplishment.


Yes sir 

BTW Integra, you check out those videos yet?


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## Twils (Nov 13, 2009)

Damn Bob looking good! Very productive day today I can see. Killer videos!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 13, 2009)

Thanks to both of you for stopping by, appreciate it 



Really quickly, forgot to attach this pic of what the veg tent looks like now - just the two mamas and the four Super Skunks, and now everyone has their own bucket to lessen the crowding.

Also, clone is wilting like a madman, guessing this one won't make it - not letting it get me down, though, had a very nice day - was just out there admiring my handiwork and that shit looks legit right now 

Finally, thinking that when I flip the switch to flowering in 10-14 days that I might just start a new journal with just flowering pics/updates, as this is predominantly a "Growroom Design and Setup" thread, IMHO.

Thoughts anyone? Anyone have an issue with that?

Just think it'd be easier to navigate then this beast of a setup journal, no?


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## Ichi (Nov 13, 2009)

Saw the videos. Nice set up. A Sentinel....i want one. lol. Keep up the good work.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 14, 2009)

Ichi said:


> Saw the videos. Nice set up. A Sentinel....i want one. lol. Keep up the good work.


Thanks for checking in................just to get everyone up to speed - you'll see a new location for me in the top right - I was lying to you all before, and I've really been in California the whole time - just didn't want to tell all of you 

That change was brought upon by this thread:

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/271343-rollitup-member-gets-busted-arrested.html

Anyways, enough of the negative, back to the positive.............so, was back behind my shed making a pile of leaves (put all my trash/leaves/dirt behind my shed), and stumbled upon this little treasure (don't worry, impossible for someone else to see it where it was):



So, this was my fastest growing bean before, but tossed it because it was a "male" 

Oh well, not much there, but should give me a nice little teaser to see what this bagseed is gonna taste like.


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## tmsculli (Nov 15, 2009)

Cali? damnit Bob, I surely will not be "down your way" hahaha. Although, my buddies and I were talking about heading West roadtrip style for spring break this year haha.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 16, 2009)

Quickie update - growth is oustanding, the largest clones are about 6" now and growing like weeds. All the seedlings are doing great, and the one Bubblelicious that looked like it was dead has recovered 100% and is thriving. Believe it or not, I think that this clone (the second one, cause the first one wasn't deep enough in the bucket) is gonna survive - not standing up straight, but is certainly alive. Also, first CO2 tank is empty (when hooking it up the first time, pretty sure I let ALOT of CO2 out by accident, so I'm curious to see how long this one lasts for a true measure). Finally, the veg tent is an absolute jungle as the two mothers and four Super Skunks are just exploding in growth. Try to get some pics up within a couple of days so you can all see the new growth.


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## DND (Nov 16, 2009)

Lookin' good Bob. Had a chance to check out the videos, I likes! Seems everything came together nicely and you're on the way. I'll be watching. Just a few suggestions and maybe a question or two... I love duct tape as much as the next man, lol. But damn, you went all out! I'm sure you'll make changes to the tents after you get more grows under your belt. I would suggest securing those exhaust fans with large tie wraps to the top of the tent, use flexible ducting as you are and put the hoods on those adjustable hangers. Use real aluminum duct tape to secure ducting to fans and blowers. Also, in that veg tent you should really get those pumps and electrical off the floor. With hydro you never know when something might decided to leak. Just some suggestions to clean things up and I'm sure you were planning on it anyhow. Are you running the Lucas Formula still? And how long are you going to veg again? How many inches?


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## Bob Smith (Nov 16, 2009)

All right, lemme take these in order:

The exhaust fans are hung from the top of the tent by rubber bungees, which I like because they're supposed to help lessen the noise (although anyone who's watched the videos knows that it sounds like an airplane hangar in there).

Also, I use worm drive clamps (thanks Twils) to secure the flexible ducting to everything in there, and they work stupendously - don't even need duct tape when I use them. The only time they don't work is when I'm securing the "hard" ducting (like the 90 angle thingies), and that's when I have to go bananas with the duct tape.

As far as the electrical in the veg tent, pretty much going to tear that whole system out and start from scratch as soon as I figure out what I want to do - been brainstorming ways to make it a two tiered tent (two 2x4 E&F trays in each level sharing one common reservoir), and as soon as I've got that plan laid out and am comfortable with it, all that DWC horseshit is coming out and going on Cragislist "free to a good home". Planning on having clones and mamas under some fluoros that I have and having the vegging clones under the 400HPS that's currently in there.

Yuppers, have officially changed my name to Bob Lucas Smith - using my new R/O water and the Lucas Formula - when I add nutes, the EC is at 2 and the pH is at 5.6 (with no pH down). It's been creeping up every day (was hoping with R/O it wouldn't), but it's not a big deal, and I've now gotten a feel for how much pH down changes the pH (much more powerful changing agent then when using "normal" water).

As far as vegging them, going to top them all in a couple of days (as soon as they're all at least six inches), and then veg for another week or so - trying to get them all (including the seedlings) to be about 10-12" before I flip the switch, hopefully ending at about 20-26". It's going to be a little difficult to get the seedlings the same height, so I'm imagining I'll probably have to top them twice, and have four colas for each of those.

As I said before, the clone that I'm trying to root in there seems like it's going to survive, so I'm going to take clones off the other Super Skunks today and have 28 plants total in there that will start flowering together (still shooting for the 25th).

Also, a few of the seedlings have shown preflowers now, and they're all ladies (that have shown).

RIU is acting funny, but I'm too sore from football to workout, so I'll take some pics, and if the site lets me, I'll post them.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 16, 2009)

Well, here they are - nothing too crazy to report, just some new growth.

That being said, just took another look at the five seedlings that are within easy arm's reach in the 4x4 tent (the one in the far right corner I'm not sure about because I was too lazy to get close to it), and I'm 90% sure that all five are ladies (these were not feminized seeds, FYI).



Random veg tent picks - getting quite crowded in there and the Super Skunks are actually having trouble supporting themselves in those little 3" netpots - not quite sure what I'm gonna do about that.



Random big tent pics - you can see how well the seedling (front and center) has recovered from when I first put it in there.



The first pic is a couple of NYPD seedlings that I'm pretty sure are ladies, the second is the one seedling that I haven't bothered to try to early sex yet, and the third pic is kinda interesting - the way I can tell when the clones roots descend fully into the "flood zone" is when they're standing up straight - notice how the bigger one on the left is standing "at attention", whereas the much smaller one is still just kinda chilling? That's because her roots are not fully immersed yet and she's not feeling that 2.0EC all up in her body like some Red Bull.



Finally, covered up the large window in there with some panda film - don't worry about that looking shady, there's some blinds as well as a curtain covering the window, so it's impossible to tell from the outside that anything's covering it.

And that's about it, for today - still undecided about taking clones off of the Super Skunks, what I'm going to do with my Super Skunks in the veg tent.


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## DND (Nov 16, 2009)

My bad, hope you didn't take offense, I was just making suggestions. Really I couldn't suggest a better fix than duct tape for the hard ducting. Whatever works and it seems like you got it working...i dig it.

Veg tent looks good happy! I would take clones from the SS, let them root and make new moms from them. I've learned the hard way of not keeping cuts of good plants...got to keep a good thing going, ya know?


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## Bob Smith (Nov 16, 2009)

DND said:


> My bad, hope you didn't take offense, I was just making suggestions. Really I couldn't suggest a better fix than duct tape for the hard ducting. Whatever works and it seems like you got it working...i dig it.
> 
> Veg tent looks good happy! I would take clones from the SS, let them root and make new moms from them. I've learned the hard way of not keeping cuts of good plants...got to keep a good thing going, ya know?


No offense at all, my man - don't be silly 

As far as the clones go, I'm certainly not losing any of the SS, just not sure if I'm gonna take clones now or later - will let all of you know when I've decided.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 18, 2009)

We officially start overhauling the veg tent - grabbing a 2x4 tray from the hydro store (with fittings, etc.) and a reservoir from Walmart.

Possibly wood from Home Depot as well, but need to take some measurements first.

Should be interesting - I do believe I'll be the first kid on my block with a two level (might even be three ) veg tent.


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## tmsculli (Nov 18, 2009)

*watches intently*


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## Integra21 (Nov 18, 2009)

Good luck. You're getting better. Keep it up and I'll start calling you Bob the Builder.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 18, 2009)

Lol, that'll be the day 

Anyhow, picked up my tray, plumbed it, got the reservoir (35 gallon Sterilite), and just got back from picking up the wood at Home Depot.

Going to eat a late lunch and then put the stand together, shouldn't take very long - when that's done, I'll have pics of it, but I'm not sure if we're going to do the big switch today - might just wait for tomorrow.

Also thinking I might just flower out my veg tent and build a separate box for clones/vegging plants and get rid of mothers entirely - not sure if that tent has enough height to be able to handle two levels of foot tall (two feet in the mother's case) plants.

Still not sure what I'm gonna do with that.

Finally, going to start a new thread about it but I'll also ask any of you who are reading - anyone know how hard/dangerous it is to tap into a natural gas line? The back of the stove is directly next to where my Sentinel is in the garage (only separated by some drywall/insulation), so I was wondering how hard it'd be to run another "valve" (not sure what they're called) to a CO2 generator in the garage - would be badass to never have to fill up CO2 or propane tanks again.

Anyhow, here's a pic of the reservoir, plumbing, tray, and the wood (there's lotsa wood).

Almost forgot the mention, kinda annoyed that the Botanicare "2x4" tray is really closer to 2x3.5 - kinda bullshit, IMHO.


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## Twils (Nov 18, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, that'll be the day
> 
> Anyhow, picked up my tray, plumbed it, got the reservoir (35 gallon Sterilite), and just got back from picking up the wood at Home Depot.
> 
> ...


Looking good there Bob! As far as tapping into the NG line I believe it can be dangerous if you make it.. But is not that hard to do.. It's been a few years I'll have to refresh my memory, but it didn't take my dad and I very long to tap in and run another line to go out side for the BBQ at his house. (not very informative really sorry heh)


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## Bob Smith (Nov 18, 2009)

No worries buddy, I appreciate the effort 

Now what are we doing online? We've both got some work to do


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## smokingrubber (Nov 18, 2009)

Bob, you could build a table to put the tent on. If you leave enough room under the table for the reservior, you would have plenty of height inside the tent to build a two-level veg setup. Just a thought.

Tapping the gas line isn't too hard. It's still gas though so if you can find a cool plumber you should see what he'll charge you. That's not a connection you can afford to screw up.

PS: I have started my journal. Thanks for the knowledge and inspiration.


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## Twils (Nov 18, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> No worries buddy, I appreciate the effort
> 
> Now what are we doing online? We've both got some work to do


I hear you there man... I'm thinking about trying to scrap my veg room too and switching over to bubbles... What to do what to do


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## smokingrubber (Nov 18, 2009)

You could get the plumber to tap the line and install an on/off valve. When he leaves, you screw in a long flex line and punch the hole in the wall. Get some pointers from the plumber and make the final connection yourself. The plumber would never need to enter your grow room.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 18, 2009)

Twils said:


> I hear you there man... I'm thinking about trying to scrap my veg room too and switching over to bubbles... What to do what to do


Lol...........you see all the effort I'm putting into switching away from bubblers and that's where you're going, huh? 

I've got loads of free equipment for you if you feel like making a roadtrip 

And smokinggrubber, that's a great fugging idea - I could run the line through the wall myself - now the only issue is what excuse to use for why I need that line to be split into two.

Hmmmmmmmmmm....................I'm open to ideas.............


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## smokingrubber (Nov 18, 2009)

How much do you want for the tanks and regulator?


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## DND (Nov 18, 2009)

Twils said:


> I hear you there man... I'm thinking about trying to scrap my veg room too and switching over to bubbles... What to do what to do


Twils, save yourself the frustration and do ebb & flow. DWC is more hassle than it's worth IMO. Too much water, ph issues, root rot and the list goes on.


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## Twils (Nov 19, 2009)

DND said:


> Twils, save yourself the frustration and do ebb & flow. DWC is more hassle than it's worth IMO. Too much water, ph issues, root rot and the list goes on.


Thanks for the impute Bob and DND , The only thing really keeping me from doing a total switch over really well 2 things.. 1 is the money issue and the 2nd is I guess hydro stuff sounds complicated to me..


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

Lol, well it didn't go down like I'd hoped - long story short, hammered in a board kinda crooked, so I tried to take out the nail with the hammer - evidently, pulling up directly towards one's face is a bad idea, and I ended up knocking myself out cold and giving myself a good-sized gash on my left eyebrow.

Wish I could show you guys the picture (had the camera right there to take pics of the stand as I built it, and figured I might as well get a pic of my face for posterity), but I don't know how to bleep my face out of it - rest assured, it was pretty gnarly and bloody - the email I sent to my boys is below.

Me: What a tard I am..............just knocked myself out cold with a hammer, but like a true soldier, paused for a pic for all of your enjoyment before I cleaned myself off.............damn, this is a fugging gash right here.......might need to stitch it up myself with some thread........

Friend #1: Got damn, was like a kid in the candy store waiting for that picture to load then "bladdow" instant tears in my eyes.....well done, I see you're a regular old Jesus when it comes down to the carpentry......fuck, I'm cracking the fuck up at that shit man, that looks pretty major lucky you didn't get your eye

Anyways, planning to take it easy today, but might just go back to Home Depot and grab some wood to make a stand for my veg tent as Smokinggrubber suggested - wasn't pleased at all with how the stand I was building was turning out anyways.


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## Twils (Nov 19, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, well it didn't go down like I'd hoped - long story short, hammered in a board kinda crooked, so I tried to take out the nail with the hammer - evidently, pulling up directly towards one's face is a bad idea, and I ended up knocking myself out cold and giving myself a good-sized gash on my left eyebrow.
> 
> Wish I could show you guys the picture (had the camera right there to take pics of the stand as I built it, and figured I might as well get a pic of my face for posterity), but I don't know how to bleep my face out of it - rest assured, it was pretty gnarly and bloody - the email I sent to my boys is below.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry to laugh at your expense Bob but I REALLY needed a good laugh at this point in time...

How ever I'm really sorry to hear about that! That stuff hurts bad.. I am constantly smashing my fingers and toes in my profession and believe me it never gets any less painful.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

So before I decided to knock myself out with a hammer, I turned on my water filter............of course, being concussed, forgot about it, so woke up to some moisture in the garage today (pretty lucky that the floor slopes towards the door and away from the tents - that being said, looks like there's only one casualty, and that's the 1000W ballast.

So I'm scrambling to find one right now, and not trying to pay the $450 that the hydro store charged for a Lumatek.


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## Twils (Nov 19, 2009)

Could you send the other one back to the manufacturer to have it repaired? If so in the time being you could crab another one and use it till your ballast comes back, then just return the replacement one. Just an idea of course!

Burn on!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

Twils said:


> Could you send the other one back to the manufacturer to have it repaired? If so in the time being you could crab another one and use it till your ballast comes back, then just return the replacement one. Just an idea of course!
> 
> Burn on!


I could've done that, but I like to be discreet and not have my name attached to things - just gonna take the loss on the ballast and be thankful that (so it appears) is the only casualty.

Just got back from the hydro store, bought a cheapy magnetic ballast for $170, hooked it up and everything seems fine - didn't feel like paying $400+ for a quality digital ballast, and figure I'll just have that magnetic as a spare going forward (when I buy two new lights and ballasts for my 4x8 tent).

All in all, a good lesson to remind me to not leave water running unattended.


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## smokingrubber (Nov 19, 2009)

Doesn't sound like you're cut out for Carpentry. LOL. Stick with "Bob the Grower."

Personally, I have a friend who's got WAY more energy (and every tool known to man) than he knows what to do with. And he smokes!  I'm livin' the dream!  Nothing better than friends with tools!

I'd help you if I could, but keep the hammer away from your face and walk it off. Slap some duct tape on it and you'll be alright.

I'm die'in to see these pics.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

No duct tape, just threw some vaseline on it, boxer style.

Here, figure out how to crop pics, so this is a view of it.............


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## smokingrubber (Nov 19, 2009)

Next trip to Home Depot, pick up a pair of saftey glasses.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

Actually I'm probably better off without them, in hindsight - figure the glasses would've shattered, and I'll take a gash over my eye as opposed to plastic shards in it every day of the week.


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## smokingrubber (Nov 19, 2009)

Saftey glasses don't shatter. If you would've hit yourself hard enough to break saftey glasses, you'd still have the hammer stuck in your forehead.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

LOL!!!!

Good to know...............was literally laughing out loud at the thought of that sight................trying to get some veg tent work done but feeling really lazy..............


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## Twils (Nov 19, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Saftey glasses don't shatter. If you would've hit yourself hard enough to break saftey glasses, you'd still have the hammer stuck in your forehead.


HAHA I second this 

Last summer I saw a guy shoot him self in the eye with a 1 1/2" coil nail, from a coil nailer (duh).. Luckily the glasses didn't shatter, it absorbed the impact and spider webbed the lens. If it weren't for safety glasses he'd never see again with that eye.

Burn on!


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## tmsculli (Nov 19, 2009)

Don't make me get the cartoon safety crew over here Bob. You know, Scruff Mcgruff the crime dog, Smokie the Bear, any other retarded cartoon created to stop us from doing fun things....


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## Integra21 (Nov 19, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> I could've done that, but I like to be discreet and not have my name attached to things - just gonna take the loss on the ballast and be thankful that (so it appears) is the only casualty.
> 
> Just got back from the hydro store, bought a cheapy magnetic ballast for $170, hooked it up and everything seems fine - didn't feel like paying $400+ for a quality digital ballast, and figure I'll just have that magnetic as a spare going forward (when I buy two new lights and ballasts for my 4x8 tent).
> 
> All in all, a good lesson to remind me to not leave water running unattended.


The real lesson should have been to keep anything with electricity going through it off of the floor. that way, accidental floods dot hurt anything if they happen. Lucky about the floor slope, or you might have been walking into a death trap.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

Yeah, yeah, I know I'm a tard.............not too many people knock their own selves out with a hammer, but life goes on - still counting my stars that of all the several thousand dollars worth of stuff that could've broken, I "escaped" the flood only having to buy a new ballast.

Anyhow, still kinda undecided on what I should/will be doing for the rest of the day - on the one hand, I wanna get this veg tent into its "final" setup ASAP, but I lack the required extra tray and lights to do that, so I'm at a bit of a crossroads - I can setup the tray/stand./reservoir and all that inside of the tent now, or I can set it up like it's gonna be, with the tent on top of the "stand" and the tray on the floor of the tent, but that means changing up all the lighting and then changing it back again when I finalize it within the next week or two.

Just decided, I'm gonna do it the latter way, and switching up the lighting/ventilation in the veg tent is pretty easy, anyways. (changed my mind again and am just going to setup the one tray, as the stand is too tall to stand the tent on top of).

Will have it done by tomorrow, going to let some aquarium sealant dry today to ensure that the fittings are watertight.

Anyways, here's some pics.........



In the first pic, you can see from the cardboard that the water was no joke, but I escaped; second pic is the new ballast sitting on a wood step into the garage - that thing gets hot.



Pic of the tray - not my best work in terms of aesthetics, but it's gonna be pretty damned solid.



Random "big" tent trays - as you can see, they're all getting bigger.



Not sure if this is something to worry about or not, but I'm not too worried about it.



This is a little more troubling, but not "too" worried about it - either from heat (was in the 70s here for a couple of days last week) or from the pH issue I had - was lazy about calibrating my meter, and when I finally did the other day, realized I was off by almost a full point!!! So when I was seeing 6.0, was closer to 5.0..............oh well, live and learn - thankfully nothing disastrous happened, but not gonna slack on calibrating again anytime soon.



And here's the clone - doing well, as soon as I see some "official" new growth I'll say it's rooted, but I'm 99.9% sure it's rooted.



Veg tent pics - it's quite the jungle in there, trust me.

Well, that's about it for now, gonna see if I can procrastinate any longer and if not, I'll do some work.

EDIT: forgot to mention, seeds are still not here and the H2O2 that was supposed to be delivered today has not come either..............getting kinda nervous about the seeds, don't recall it ever taking this long...............oh, last thing is that I turned the CO2 down to 1000PPM a few days ago to try and conserve, and I figured that 1500 for such little plants was probably not necessary.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

So, topped off my reservoir with about 7 gallons today, went out there a minute ago to check on it, and there's a sizable leak...............gonna quickly light-proof and plumb this 35 gallon Sterilite as best I can, and then switch them out - tired of dealing with this bullshit Rubbermaid and it's problems.

Anything else wanna go wrong today?

Thank God I caught that when I did.................my my, what a day.


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## smokingrubber (Nov 19, 2009)

This ain't your day. You need a smoke

Fix your leak and put off any further activities that don't involve feeding yourself or getting high. Everything else can wait until tomorrow. For God's sake, don't use any power tools!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> This ain't your day. You need a smoke
> 
> Fix your leak and put off any further activities that don't involve feeding yourself or getting high. Everything else can wait until tomorrow. For God's sake, don't use any power tools!


Lol..........yeah, not the best day ever, but I'm not easily deterred.

Gotta turn the negatives into positives, and I believe I've done that.

So here's what I did...............



First and foremost, put important electrical equipment on some cut up pieces of 2x4s to get them off the ground and outta harm's way - if it floods more then 2" high in there, I'm proper fucked anyways, so that's about as good as it's gonna get for the time being.



Now this might be kinda controversial, so lemme walk you through my thought process here before anyone jumps to any conclusions.

Even though I had light-proofed my previous rez as much as I thought humanly possible (see the "greatest tape job known to man"), there was still algae in and around it, which I found to be annoying and somewhat frustrating.

Then I started thinking of large grow ops, and how they don't light-proof or even cover up their reservoirs, and then I decided I was going to do the same - got rid of the cover, the air pump, stones, etc. - simply bare bones in there.

I think this works for a couple of reasons - I'm getting my H2O2 delivered tomorrow, which should help, and I have so much oxygen being delivered to the water (from flooding every two hours) that I don't need anymore.

Also like that there's a very slow leak around the fittings for the table, so instead of leaking onto the lid of my previous rez, it now goes right back into the rez.

Finally, checking water level and pH is now going to be much, much easier.

I'm very, very, very happy with this decision, and without that leak, I never would've done it - all about turning challenges into opportunities, gentlemen (sorry for laying it on so thick, just really pleased right now ).

So that's about it for tonight - that small victory has made me decide to do some hardcore work on my veg tent for tomorrow 

So, anyone want about 40 buckets and a 50 gallon Rubbermaid? Free to a good home...........you can have the air pumps and stones, too.

EDIT: Can one of you confirm for me that a ballast won't get hot enough to spontaneously combust on a wooden step? That magnetic ballast gets plenty hot, but I can't believe it could ignite would, right? And if it could, what would be a safe material to rest it on?


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## smokingrubber (Nov 19, 2009)

I've had my magnetic ballast on a wood shelf for a year now and it hasn't gone up yet. If you're worried, half a square of tile would work nicely.

I've also had my reservior uncovered for the last year. Never had a problem with algae growing in it. I change the water every two weeks like clockwork. I did it because I'm running three flood tables off one reservior. That means that I have to have 3 pumps and 3 drain lines. Since the whole tub is on wheels, I didn't want to risk missing a drain line. That, and it's all under the table anyway so it's not getting direct light.

Why did you remove the air stones? I am not running air stones at all on that setup, but I was going to add them. I've already purchased the air-stones for my new tent grow. I don't have access to H2O2, my hydro-dummy said it was illegal.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> I've had my magnetic ballast on a wood shelf for a year now and it hasn't gone up yet. If you're worried, half a square of tile would work nicely.
> 
> I've also had my reservior uncovered for the last year. Never had a problem with algae growing in it. I change the water every two weeks like clockwork. I did it because I'm running three flood tables off one reservior. That means that I have to have 3 pumps and 3 drain lines. Since the whole tub is on wheels, I didn't want to risk missing a drain line. That, and it's all under the table anyway so it's not getting direct light.
> 
> Why did you remove the air stones? I am not running air stones at all on that setup, but I was going to add them. I've already purchased the air-stones for my new tent grow. I don't have access to H2O2, my hydro-dummy said it was illegal.


Removed the air stones because:

1) They're not needed - there's more then enough dissolved oxygen from all the aeration taking place from the numerous floods
2) Seems to me like algae forms where there's just a "little bit" of water, which can happen from the splashing of air stones/bubbling action, so I just got rid of them to keep a nice, uniform water level throughout - also don't want any water splashing over the sides of the rez.
3) Makes checking pH and TDS much, much easier - with airstones, the TDS would change every second because the water was moving, but now stays nice and still for me when testing.

Also, decided I'm not gonna throw away that Rubbermaid and am going to use it as my reservoir for my veg tent - it's long and low, and I'll only need to fill it up to ~30 gallons for those two 2x4 trays, anyhow.

Plus I put a lot of work into that setup (taping and building the frame), so I'd like to get some use out of it.

And I think I'm gonna use that tile idea - seems like Murphy's Law is in full effect, but I can handle a little flooding - a fire is a different story.

EDIT: regarding the H2O2, can't you just order it online? That's what I did - was like $50 delivered for a gallon of 35% stuff.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

Anyone know of any reason not to go with two of these setups next to each other? Guessing I could take the cover off of them, but even if not, that's plenty of light for my mamas and clones, I believe.

Speak now or forever hold your piece.

http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xgf/R-100192555/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053


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## smokingrubber (Nov 19, 2009)

I tried that last year and everyone said they wouldn't ship to Cali. I just did a search and found a good source though. SWEET! $86 for 2 gallons


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

Congrats; does that include shipping?

Also, thinking I'm going to go with three of these for my mama/clone lighting:

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=184349-13537-184349&detail=desc&lpage=none

They're not T5, but I'm not sure how important that is - anyone think that I'd need four instead?

Of course if I do four, I'd just go with two of the link that I posted above......................decisions, decisions............


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## wonderblunder (Nov 19, 2009)

Go for those! My t8s are doing a sick job. They are 6 bulb fixtures. I just added 2 of them into my flowering room for side lighting. there are pics of them in there. 

In my veg I have 2 of the 6 bulb units as well with 6500k bulbs, as the ones in flower are 3000k. Flouros will keep the nodes tight, and the growth slower than MH. Perfect light for clones, and may help keep your moms manageable.

I would also like to thank you for your input in my light positioning........ I had the concept you were describing mixing around in my head, but YOU spelled it out, and it all made sense. Plus rep. Awesome looking grow.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 19, 2009)

T5s put out more intense light, than T8s, or T12s(old large diameter bulbs). On those commercial units like that make sure they have the bi pin connect otherwise you will have to special order bulbs. THe single pin connect is more common on 8 foot flourescents, but you never know.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 19, 2009)

My pleasure, man - big day tomorrow, getting some solid veg tent work done.

Your grow's looking sick, BTW.


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## Integra21 (Nov 20, 2009)

I think pulling the air stones might be very bad. As far as I know, the nutrients will get stagnent and will cause massive root rot. Not to mention with out constant movement all of the nutrients will settle to the bottom. If you were getting alge, the res want light tight. It cannot grow without light. H202 also kills alge, so it wont be a problem soon. You will also get much more water evaporation without the lid. Im just speaking from me personal expieriences, just cause if I did any of that mine would die without question.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 20, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> I think pulling the air stones might be very bad. As far as I know, the nutrients will get stagnent and will cause massive root rot. Not to mention with out constant movement all of the nutrients will settle to the bottom. If you were getting alge, the res want light tight. It cannot grow without light. H202 also kills alge, so it wont be a problem soon. You will also get much more water evaporation without the lid. Im just speaking from me personal expieriences, just cause if I did any of that mine would die without question.


Yeah, but you're growing in DWC - massive difference.

I have enough water movement (from flooding every two hours) that the nutrients are never stagnant and there's tons and tons of dissolved oxygen in my water.

The evaporation point is a good one and I hadn't taken that into account, but with a big enough reservoir, I think I should be fine.


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## Integra21 (Nov 20, 2009)

cool. just about had a heart attack when i read you pulling every thing. first sign plants aren't getting enough oxygen is they will start to droop like they need to be watered. If you see this, I would put the stones back in asap. Is every 2 hours a lot for ebb&flo? I just remember reading somewhere people usually flood the table 2-3 times per day. Just asking for iinformation purposes. Cant wait to see these babys take off. Get em bob, when your wounds heal of course.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 20, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> cool. just about had a heart attack when i read you pulling every thing. first sign plants aren't getting enough oxygen is they will start to droop like they need to be watered. If you see this, I would put the stones back in asap. Is every 2 hours a lot for ebb&flo? I just remember reading somewhere people usually flood the table 2-3 times per day. Just asking for iinformation purposes. Cant wait to see these babys take off. Get em bob, when your wounds heal of course.


 Yeah, every two hours is definitely on the high side for E&F, but that's because of the medium I'm using - it's virtually impossible to overwater.

Hydroton (as we all know) doesn't hold much water, which allows me to flood every two hours (could even go up to every hour if I wanted, and am considering it) - the "primo" time for growth/nute uptake by the plants is when the water has just subsided and the hydroton is still wet, allowing the roots access to all the oxygen they can handle and all the nutes they can handle.

Rockwool, on the other hand, holds a LOT of water and can't be flooded nearly as often, or your plants will be overwatered.

Also, in E&F with hydroton, the dissolved oxygen doesn't come from the reservoir - once the flood has subsided, the plant's roots are in contact with both oxygen and the water/nutes from the flooding (which is the reason that rez temps don't much matter when doing E&F with hydroton) - think of it as a "steam" being produced in the rootzone, similar to a fog machine.

All that being said, the water getting (almost) totally moved every two hours gives me as much if not more DO then I had in my bubblers, IMHO - especially the waterfall action from when the overflow valve drains back into the rez (think of an aquarium filter).

Anyways, wounds are fine, I'm a big boy 

Had a good day today (some deliveries and purchases), see pics:

Got this delivered - almost scared to open it, hear that shit will burn my skin.

BEANS CAME!!!! Stoked on that, was getting kinda nervous........thinking this will be the last bean purchase for a while.

Got 4 4' long two tube fixtures, as well as 12 bulbs - T8, because T5 was dummy expensive and I didn't think it was necessary.
Doing some work on that today, but dinner tonight means I won't finish it - thinking by the end of this weekend I should have the lower level (moms and clones) setup, and then I'll just need a stand and tray for the upper level (with the 400) and I'm done.


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## Integra21 (Nov 20, 2009)

Thanks for the info. You can never know too much. I originally wanted to do ebb&flo but couldnt with my height restrictions. But as soon as I have a better place, look out.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 20, 2009)

My pleasure man, but in all honesty, I'm really just regurtitating info from that "ask Lucas" thread on cannabis-world.com.

Anyways, have built my stand and hooked up a light to make sure they work (they do).

So, here's the plan:



This is the stand I build and the reservoir I'm planning on using. The plan right now is to attach a 5x4 piece of 1/2" plywood to the top of the stand, and rest the tent on that (the tent is 4.5x3). I'll cut a hole in the bottom of the tent (and through the plywood) and have the tray plumbing going straight through the bottom to the reservoir, which will be located right where it is in the picture. Going to have all three trays (mamas, clones, and vegging clones) running off of that same reservoir.



Here's a pic of the light on and off - planning on taking the other piece of the plywood (comes in 8x4 sheets, so I'll have a 3x4 piece leftover) and mounting four of these on the bottom of it, and possibly putting that whole "system" on a yo-yo light raiser (have a spare I'm not using).

The fluorescent mamas and cuttings section is going to be on the bottom, and the vegging 400HPS section will be at the top.

So, anyone have any input on any of this, or any recommendations of things I might be forgetting?

Thanks for reading.

EDIT: Obviously going to have to build a stand for the "upper" tray as well, but don't think that'll be too hard - some 2x4s and some nails should do it.


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## tmsculli (Nov 20, 2009)

Doesn't make any sense to me this high and when I didn't read it. I just want to see pictures of it done. <3tmsculli


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## smokingrubber (Nov 21, 2009)

Bob is a busy boy! Looks very good.

The floro bulbs need to be two different temps, don't they? Those two bulbs look identical. Maybe those are the "grow" bulbs? I have never used those. I always went with the cheapo cool and warm bulbs and it always worked well.

You said you were going to mount the floros to some ½" plywood and suspend it all with yo-yos? It seems like that would weigh a ton. Probably okay with 4 yo-yos, but technically, you wouldn't need the full slab of plywood . . . just 2 pieces of 1x4 (whittled up plywood)spanning across the ends to tie everything together. The plywood in the middle doesn't do anything but add weight imo.

Congratulations on building the first "Veg-Majal"


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## wonderblunder (Nov 21, 2009)

2 different light rating of flourescents can be good. I use half 6500k and half 3000k in my veg. Flowering room is all 3000k. I love the look of the 6500k, way better than 3000k.....


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## goofygolfer (Nov 21, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, I will later on, although my camera ain't that great - basically yellowing, although I found some "browning" on one of them where the new growth should be - did some research, and apparently BL is fairly susceptible to fungal infections, so I went ahead and sprayed my whole veg tent with a fungicide/insecticide/miticide that I got from Wal-Mart (shockingly enough, all organic).
> 
> When I sprayed my outdoor veggies with that they loved it, and I'm guessing my indoor veggies will as well - it really seems to be a "cure-all" for whatever ails plants.
> 
> ...


i was just rereading through your journel and was wondering what the name of the spray was


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## rbahadosingh (Nov 22, 2009)

pics please mr smith.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 22, 2009)

well aint that demanding? I guess he said please..... Looking forward to seeing the mother area all setup. Looks like a solid system........


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## Bob Smith (Nov 23, 2009)

Sorry for the holdup guys, had a pretty busy weekend (not productive, but busy).

Taking these in order:

Smokinggrubber - great call on the weight of the plywood, had totally not taken that into account - that being said, still going to try to use the 3x4 piece and just hang it by chains, as opposed to yo-yos (I think, only time will tell).

Wonder - as far as the lights go, I have 12 4100K bulbs - will buy more if the plants seem lacking, but for the time being probably just going to go with 8 of these. Will keep my eye out and make a change if necessary.

Goofy - here it is - works great, all organic (that being said, bought some SM-90 in case I ever have to battle a "real" pest problem), but this seems to be a good preventative measure and something like a "cure-all" for plants.



Anyhow, my new plan is as follows - going to pull the one male I've found so far (the worst Bubblelicious of the bunch, but four outta 5 ladies ain't bad), and put the four massive Super Skunks in the flowering tent, pulling out and killing the weakest clones to make room where necessary. Gonna top them all (clones and seedlings) today, veg for a couple of days (five-ish), and then flip the switch. Also going to kill my sativa mama (her clones suck, as you'll see).

So, that'll leave just the indica mom in the veg tent for now, and I'll take a few clones off of all the seedlings in a couple of days once I've gotten the cloning tray setup.

So, here's some pics from this morning:



The veg tent is just being overrun right now.



Starting to get a mini jungle feel to the flowering tent as well - the indica clones are ~12" right now, the seedlings are about 24". The sativa clones are anywhere from 1" to 8", give or take, with real weak stems.



Here's the super skunk clone I rooted in the E&F - no roots showing through the bottom of the pot or new growth (that I've realized), but it's certainly rooted and alive.



A good contrast shot (save for the blurriness, for which I apologize) between the indica and sativa clones (indica at 3 o'clock, the sativas are 12, 6, and 9) - the sativas are shorter with weaker stems, less leaves, more inter-nodal spacing - just inferior, in every sense of the word. Getting rid of as many as I can ASAP and killing their worthless mother.



Some seedling shots - they've recovered nicely from whatever it was that had their leaves curling (slightly, but any curling is too much).



Finally, some root shots - I'm honestly not sure if this is a problem or not, but it certainly doesn't appear to be - the plants seem to be doing fine, and the roots don't seem to mind being out of the pots at all.

So, that's it for now, will try to post some more pics later when I've (hopefully) transplanted the super skunks and topped all the plants in the flowering tent.

Comments, questions, criticisms always welcome - thanks for reading


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## smokingrubber (Nov 23, 2009)

Looking fantastic! I don't think the roots are too much of a problem unless you need to move the pots. They probably don't don't like getting their toes stepped on. They won't flourish out there in the light, but it won't kill the plants either. 

Looks gooooood


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## Bob Smith (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks man; like the setup work you've been doing - it's coming together quite nicely.

Somewhat curious as to what people's thoughts were regarding the topping I'm going to do today - I'm trying to get an even canopy and flower at about 12", which is going to be pretty tricky with the BL and NYPD seedlings about 2' tall and the super skunk about 2.5 - 3.

Think I might just bite the bullet, top all the seedlings down to 12", and flower immediately - anyone have any thoughts on that? Or, thinking maybe top down to 10", let them grow about two inches (a day or two), and then flip the switch, after they've recovered from the shock.

Or, just let the seedlings be taller then the clones, and have them on one side of the tent and the clones on the other (two separate canopies, in a way) - even then the seedlings need to come down to about 12 - 15" max before flower because of height restrictions.

Anyone have any suggestions? FYI, the secondary branches on many of the seedlings are fairly tall as well, so I'd most likely have to top to produce four main colas................hmmmmmmmmm...........talking myself through it via this post, I think it makes the most sense to top the seedlings a little bit, but be content with two canopies..................


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## smokingrubber (Nov 23, 2009)

Yeah I'd go with two canopies. Tall ladies on the perimeter and little girls in the middle. If you know what to expect from the strain, how tall will the colas get? If you've already got height concerns, you should top them asap. If you top them at all, you've still got to allow time for recovery before flowering right?


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## Bob Smith (Nov 23, 2009)

I'd like to, but not sure it's 100% necessary.

And I'm not very sure at all about height and things of that nature; I guess I could look on the Nirvana website.

I think I'm gonna top them all today, give them two days of healing, and then start 12/12 on the 25th.

Or maybe I won't need to top, need to take another look at the height restrictions and all that goodness.


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## smokingrubber (Nov 23, 2009)

Well, if you top them and only allow a few days recovery that will limit the size of the top colas. That will certainly help your height problem.

How much overall height do you have in your flower setup?


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## Bob Smith (Nov 23, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Well, if you top them and only allow a few days recovery that will limit the size of the top colas. That will certainly help your height problem.
> 
> How much overall height do you have in your flower setup?


I have about 38" from the bottom of the light to the top of the pots, so I could safely let the plants get to about 26" (even a LITTLE higher) without too much problem.

Gonna take some real deal measurements today and crunch some numbers - my issue is that I'm really only looking for top-ish colas, but I guess that just might not be an option for this run (although it certainly will be with the clones).

EDIT: I do have the Bubblelicious male to practice on, so I'm going to go violate him and see how he looks/reacts.


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## smokingrubber (Nov 23, 2009)

Can you lift the light higher? I have yo-yo's on my lamp, but if push came to shove I could pin it up with s-hooks and bypass the yo-yos. Just a thought.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 23, 2009)

Unfortunately that's not an option - my light is already suspended by "S" hooks from the top bar of my tent (can not physically go any higher).

Anyways, just did a sample of what I'm thinking on my BL male.



Here's what he looked like before his haircut - about 14-15" (that mixing stick is exactly 12").



And here's what I took off - the main cola and also any really low shoots (up 4" from the base, roughly).



And here's what he looks like afterwards - about 11" tall, with four main colas tied to stakes. Would let them veg for a few days (maybe 3-4" of new growth) and then flower them out.

Soooooooooooo, thoughts?


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## smokingrubber (Nov 23, 2009)

That's so sad. And to just leave it on the ground all disrespectful!!! I just wanna go all Clint Eastwood and shoot whoever decorated his saloon with my friend! Damn.


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## tmsculli (Nov 23, 2009)

Everything looks good Bob, here is my 2c on the situation. When you said that you had that male to top and test with I had the idea of you topping it and then chucking it into 12/12. I believe you said you were trying to keep the height down a bit, and you were unsure of if you needed to veg a bit after the topping before flipping the switch. I think that this could be a good idea to limit the height, but you want to make sure that the new chutes that are growing are going to be able to sustain in the 12/12 situation. Top something and chuck it in 12/12 and then see how well/poorly the chutes grow. Basically, if they grow about an inch before they put on bud weight, you will have some awesome stocky buds that are starting very low and you will have all bud growing on bud instead of bud filling in up the stem, you get what I'm saying?


Not sure how coherent this post is to you haha, it barely makes sense to me either. Basically, you need to see what the effects of topping and chucking in 12/12 are as opposed to topping, chucking veg for a few days until you see chutes growing, and then toss them in 12/12.


yeeeeeeee


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## smokingrubber (Nov 23, 2009)

That would work if he had a seperate room set up and waiting for 12/12. I think he's using the same room they're in now and switching the whole thing over.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 23, 2009)

Smokinggrubber, you are correct - Tmsculli, don't really have a space to run that experiment, but I'm feeling pretty good about what I'm going to do with the topping.

Doing a little research, and realized that I shouldn't have chopped off any of the fan leaves on the lower part of the plant, and won't do it for the next go round.

Going to do a little more research just to make sure everything's kosher, and then chop the rest tonight - figure I'm just going to lollipop the clones while I turn the seedlings into four-cola guys (kinda of an interesting dichotomy).

Will post pics when I'm done (before and after).


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## smokingrubber (Nov 23, 2009)

The height restriction of the tent is the exact reason I went with the bucket system. All the buckets sit on the floor so I should have 4-5 ft to grow in. My other system is flood tables built with 2x4s and a 35 gal res underneath. With the res on wheels, the 8' ceiling is still too low. There was no way I could figure fitting that kind of set up in a 6½' tent.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 23, 2009)

I don't want to talk about bad deals in your thread, but would you mind telling me about your experiences with ___________ . What you were posting about in my thread. I posted a reply in there after examining the plants thoroughly. Same spots can be seen on either side of the leaf, with my eyes no sign of the ______ . Hope I don't rekindle any bad memories........


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## Integra21 (Nov 23, 2009)

One word for ya bob, Scrog. Then height is never an issue or canopy levelness. Most people think it is hard and it dicourages them from trying, but it really is simple and helps maintain height like no other. If you want to go this rout, I will make a tut for you. Remember it is very easy. and supplies to adapt are cheap.


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## rbahadosingh (Nov 23, 2009)

Looking good Bob. Starting to look like a little jungle in there. 
if you do decide to top i wouldnt flip the switch for atleast a weak. I have had bad results with switching right after i have topped. Also if you want you could put some hydroton down around the pots and the roots will continue to grow and spread down into the tray. Just an idea....


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## Bob Smith (Nov 24, 2009)

Hey guys, sorry don't have much time to tell you guys or post pics of what I did yesterday, so I'll do the quick and abridged version.

Smokinggrubber, tried buckets, fugging hate them - will build a shorter stand for my tables for my next tent, but staying with E&F - couldn't be simpler, and the growth is outstanding (IMHO).

Wonder - looked like spider mite damage; I haven't dealt with them in about ten years, but that's the first thing I thought of when I saw that pic - both Twils and Integra have fought them lately, they'd probably be more helpful then me in terms of combating them.

Integra - funny you said that; as I was butchering the super skunks yesterday, that actually popped into my head as the best solution (I've since changed my mind, shockingly enough, but for a good ten minutes yesterday, was pretty convinced that's what I was going to do).

Rhaba - was thinking the same thing as you, but I'm fairly shocked and pleased with how much growth has taken place over the past 24 hours - almost no "recovery" period at all, they just started growing immediately.

So, the clones and the seedlings (save for the super skunks) responded pretty well to the topping, IMHO - there's already about 1" of new growth on most of them. The super skunks were basically ruined, they were simply too tall and "branchy" to top like I tried to top them, and they're going to be ridiculously low yielding.

The plants are eating like animals - the rez went from 2.0EC two days ago to 1.4 today, so I topped off with Floranova Bloom and also with some Flora Gro (the stems aren't as strong as I'd like, and am hoping the high nitrogen from the Gro should help that out, especially with the sativa clones).

Also found some small brown spots on one of the super skunks, so sprayed the entire tent down with that insecticide/miticide/fungicide I have.

Finally, found some white fungus on the two bamboo sticks that I'd been using as test sticks - took them out as a precaution, but I'm wondering if using the H2O2 would remedy that situation (although the sticks aren't touching any plant matter, so I wonder if the small amount of fungi was really that much of an issue, anyways).

So, I'll post pics when I get a chance (maybe tonight, but prolly tomorrow or the day after - crazy week).

Thanks for all the suggestions, guys - I really appreciate it.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 24, 2009)

Im not thinking spidermites.... that would surprise me. Its not getting any worse or effecting any other plants. This run will be over soon anyway.... Im glad you mentioned it because I haven;t exactly been pn my toes about it


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## Bob Smith (Nov 25, 2009)

Okay, a couple of things I forgot to mention - pulled the clone I took and there were definite nubs forming, which tells me that I can certainly clone in an E&F, which I like. That being said, took MASSIVE clones (like 15") off of my sativa mom, indica mom, and the biggest super skunk, which was the only one left in the veg tent (white hairs showing, so she's a girl).

Also, went through CO2 tank #2, so definitely getting a natural gas generator at some point in the not-so-distant future.

Gonna try to do this quickly, so work with me........

View attachment 630976View attachment 630977

Shots of the clone's nubs.

View attachment 630978View attachment 630979

First shot is of the super skunk mother I chose - stinkiest, tightest node spacing, thickest trunk, most vigorous, etc.

Second shot is the root system of the BL male I pulled the other day.

View attachment 630981View attachment 630982View attachment 630983View attachment 630984View attachment 630985View attachment 630986View attachment 630987View attachment 630988

Random flower tent pics from two days ago, both before and after topping (I think).



Pics from yesterday - notice the new growth in only (less then, actually) 24 hours.



Pics taken ten minutes ago - the two plants falling over are the indica mom clone and the super skunk clone, respectively - expected this, which is why I took them much larger, so hopefully by the time they put roots down, they'll be equal in height to the other clones.

Sorry for the poor pic quality and lack of good captions, rushing around to about 10 parties in the next couple of days (one of them being a milestone birthday for me).

Happy a happy and safe Thanksgiving, everyone.


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## Bob Smith (Nov 25, 2009)

Tried to upload those pics again and it didn't work - not sure what's going on.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 26, 2009)

30? 40? Your still young Bob. Looks good in your world. Holidays are hectic.....


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## smokingrubber (Nov 26, 2009)

Welcome to the other side of the hill. It's not so bad over here once you get all the toys!


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## Bob Smith (Nov 26, 2009)

Whoa, let's not jump to conclusions yet...............still have a "2" leading my age for a few more days, and time could stop any day now.

Happy Thanksgiving everybody.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 26, 2009)

Yea..... you are still young. I am as well. I am married at 21. On a bad day I think that I could be 35, single, and still tapping those young resources


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## Bob Smith (Nov 26, 2009)

So are you 21, 35, or neither of the above?


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## smokingrubber (Nov 26, 2009)

Yeah, you've got a minute before you get to the top of that hill. That means you've got some time to collect your toys before you get there. Watch out . . . it'll come faster than you think.

im 42  Old enough to not give a fuck anymore! The sadest part is being too old to get the "young resouces" anymore. Oh well, cougars are fun too.


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## wonderblunder (Nov 26, 2009)

21......... but I'd like to think there is still some fun go be had once I get older and my wife leaves me.....


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## Twils (Nov 27, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> 21......... but I'd like to think there is still some fun go be had once I get older and my wife leaves me.....


That just made my day. 

Happy Turkey Day Bob! and everyone else of course...


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## tmsculli (Nov 30, 2009)

Bobbbbbbb


Did the turkey run wild and destroy your setup?


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## wonderblunder (Nov 30, 2009)

Holidays do crazy things to people......


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## Bob Smith (Nov 30, 2009)

Sorry guys, been kinda hectic - had the holidays, a golf tournament and my birthday, but the main thing is that my camera is still at my buddy's house.

Everything's good, but I still have been procrastinating about setting up the veg tent - also had some yellowing of my leaves (only on three or four of the weaker plants), which I believe is a function of my pH getting up slightly too high (6.-6.4), and which I had attributed before to sun bleaching (seems to be an iron issue). To resolve, have started keeping my pH at a target of 5.7 with minimal swings (+/- .2 being the absolute largest swing) - just started today, will let you know how it turns out.

Other then that, things are good - gonna switch to 12/12 either tomorrow or Wednesday, and will get pics and an update up as soon as I get my camera back.

Sorry for the delay, and I hope everyone had a good Thanksgiving and enjoyed themselves.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 1, 2009)

Glad your back. Looking forward to pics. How far along are ya?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 1, 2009)

Just set the flood timer for to turn on at 9:00pm, 11:00pm, 1:00am, 3:00am, 5:00am, 7:00am, 9:00am (as the lights go out), and then at 3:00pm during the dark cycle.

Set the light timer to turn on at 9:00pm and off at 9:00am.

Just turned the lights off for the first time, and I was astonished to see that there was light in there - after a moment or two of anxious panic (could actually make hand puppets on the wall), realized it was the light from the Sentinel sensor, which is green, so no worries.

All the clones are ~12", and the seedlings are all a couple of inches taller - the yellowing of the leaves is still an issue, as I only got the pH down to 6.2 (added more today) - if they don't stop yellowing in a couple of days, I'm going to change out the reservoir.

The canopy is massive, absolutely a sea of green right now (really disappointed that I can't take pics for posterity, as well as to show you guys).

Will certainly have my camera back by this weekend (if not sooner), so there will be pics then.

Been really busy lately, my girl just got an awesome offer for a new job in the city, so I've been on my find a job grind as well as studying for a test, but mainly I've resumed my addiction to online poker.

Need to find a balance of all those things right now, and unfortunately the garage has been at the bottom of my priority list.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 1, 2009)

No shit... Online poker eh.... Better teach me...... I'm an addict on wheels for shit like that. Nothing like a little addiction.......


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## smokingrubber (Dec 1, 2009)

So now that you've used the Co2 a bit, can you break down the costs for us? I will get the bottle setup next month and it would help to know what I'm getting into. You're using 20lb bottles . . .1) how long do they last? 2)How much $ to fill 3)How much area are you saturating 4)Duration, frequency and ppm of saturation? 5) Do you have seperate filter and hood fans and intake? What shuts down?

I have one fan that sucks through the filter and past light before exhaust. Q: How bad would that be if I shut off the fan for 30 minutes? Would shit start to blow up because of too much heat in the hood with no air flowing by?

Question about Co2 generators. Can you get one that sits outside the tent and you run a line (like from the tank) into the tent? Or does the generator have to be in the tent with it's open flame? How much are you thinking you'll spend for your gen and which model are you considering?

A lot of questions. I appreciate your time and knowledge.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 1, 2009)

Wonder, don't do it, it's a nasty, nasty addiction.

1) Smoking, I go through about a bottle a month (rough estimate) running 24/7, so I'm guessing a bottle will last me about one flowering cycle on 12/12.

2) $15 to fill at my welding supply place.

3) I'm saturating a 4x4x7 cubic area, but with the flood table being about 2' high, it's more like 4x4x5.

4) I don't have a timer for the tank, it's all controlled by my Sentinel - deciding now what to run it at, thinking 1250 will do (vegged them at 1500, then went down to 1000, and then down to 600). Thinking either 1250 or 1500, not quite sure yet.

5) Yeah, I have my light cooled by its own 6" exhaust fan which is solely dedicated to cooling the light. Then I have another 6" hooked up to a filter for exhaust and a 4" for intake. So really nothing shuts down; the exhaust and intake fans almost never run, so it's really almost a totally sealed environment in there when the lights are on and CO2's running.

6) Really only you know how hot it's gonna get in there if you turn off your fan - anything reach 90 is too hot, IMHO. If the temps get too high too quickly, you're gonna need to redo your ventilation and have the light cooled by its own fan, as far as I know.

7) As far as the generators go, I've never seen and don't really know too much about them - I have a lot of the same questions as you, truthfully. Depending on if I ran it inside the tent or just in the garage in general would determine what size I'd need, but I really don't know much, honestly, or even what direction I'm gonna go with regards to a generator or stay with the tanks.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 1, 2009)

Great info Bob. Thank you. I will have to figure out my vent situation when I get the Sentinal I guess. For now, I will just leave the fan on 24hr.

Keep us up to date on any generator info you get, but an extra $15 per flowering cycle ain't shit imo. It certainly doesn't justify spending 400+ on a generator after you've already dropped a bunch of $ on tanks.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 1, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Great info Bob. Thank you. I will have to figure out my vent situation when I get the Sentinal I guess. For now, I will just leave the fan on 24hr.
> 
> Keep us up to date on any generator info you get, but an extra $15 per flowering cycle ain't shit imo. It certainly doesn't justify spending 400+ on a generator after you've already dropped a bunch of $ on tanks.


Yeah, it's not so much the money, as the time and hassle of driving them and sneaking them into my car at night wrapped in a towel so the neighbors can't see.

Not really sweating the few hundred I've dropped on my tanks and regulator, so that's not really a factor - it's more the cost/safety/security of getting a plumber to install a "T" valve on my natural gas line to run through the wall into the garage.

Anyways, just checked on the girls, all is well - bumped the CO2 up to 1000PPM, and got the pH down to 5.7 on the nose from 6.2.

If there's not noticeable improvement (or at least no more yellowing), then I'm changing the rez out.


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 2, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, it's not so much the money, as the time and hassle of driving them and sneaking them into my car at night wrapped in a towel so the neighbors can't see.
> 
> Not really sweating the few hundred I've dropped on my tanks and regulator, so that's not really a factor - it's more the cost/safety/security of getting a plumber to install a "T" valve on my natural gas line to run through the wall into the garage.
> 
> ...


hey bob. why only 1000ppm on the co2? i give mine 1500ppm all the way through.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 2, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> hey bob. why only 1000ppm on the co2? i give mine 1500ppm all the way through.


I started out vegging them at 1500PPM, then realized that was prolly wasted on them as they were 2" tall at the time, so backed it off to 1000PPM - after going through my second tank, bumped it down to 600PPM (still vegging, mind you), and then bumped it up to 1000 yesterday for the first day of 12/12.

Going to get up to 1500 ASAP, but just feel like until I get this yellowing situation under control (which I hopefully did with the pH lowering, seems to be an iron issue), that CO2 at 1500 is kinda overkill if my nutes are limiting their growth anyways.

As soon as they back to being green and healthy (they are for the most part, only two or three of the weaker plants are yellowing noticeably) then they'll get flooded with 1500.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 2, 2009)

Is that a constant level or does the sentinal provide a cycle flood-flush thing? Can you set it to cycle or constant? I have a few questions about how the controller controls things and how much input is required / allowed by the operator.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 2, 2009)

It's a constant - with CO2 tanks, from what I understand, it's much easier to keep the level closer to your setpoint, because they can turn the flow on and off every second or two, whereas a generator needs to be run for a certain amount of time, which means you're going to go further over your setpoint, I think.

In terms of controlling the Sentinel, it couldn't be easier - plug in my exhaust fans, dehumidifier, CO2 regulator, and heater, set it to the points I want, and it's done.

Took about three minutes to set it up, and besides changing the CO2 PPM settings, haven't had to do a thing.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 2, 2009)

I have an old portable dehumidifier (that weighs a ton) but it blows a serious amount of hot air out the back. Is this normal? Does it require ducting?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 2, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> I have an old portable dehumidifier (that weighs a ton) but it blows a serious amount of hot air out the back. Is this normal? Does it require ducting?


That I couldn't tell you - I'm having to run a heater to keep my temps up, so my dehumidifier's heat is not a concern as of now (although come summer that will be a different story, I'm sure).


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## Bob Smith (Dec 3, 2009)

Firstly, lemme say that I'm glad I've found the source of the yellowing - it's an iron deficiency, caused by my pH being too high (98% sure). That being said, am going to bump my CO2 back up to 1500 tonight.

Seems that my tester again was off by .3, so 6.4 was really 6.7, and the 5.7 I lowered it to last night is really 6.0, so I'm going to shoot for 5.6 each time, and adjust when it gets +/- .2 away from that number.

Long story short, obviously am going to calibrate my meter every week from now on, but I had another question - there's a fungus-y type gunk on a probe (I guess) - not the glass part, but the "paper" part - would it be okay to let my meter sit in either 1) bleach or 2) 35% H2O2 for a couple of hours and see if this stuff would die and fall off? Can I scrub this off (gently) with something or will that fuck my meter up?

Not a big deal calibrating my meter weekly (all I have to do is adjust to the 7.0 and the 4.0 takes care of itself, so far), but I'd like to minimize the variance towards the end of the week; any input would be greatly appreciated.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 3, 2009)

Found this:

http://www.ehow.com/how_4812473_clean-ph-meter.html


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## jakethetank (Dec 3, 2009)

looks fucken awesome


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## Bob Smith (Dec 3, 2009)

Smokinggrubber, thanks for that - appreciate the link, but I'm not gonna do all that (pretty lazy) - worst case, I'll just calibrate once a week, and it won't be off by more then .2 between calibrations, which I can live with.

Was just curious if soaking it in bleach or something like that would get rid of the nastiness.

Jake, happy to have you aboard - haven't had my camera for a while, but pics will be coming this weekend.

Still haven't changed over the veg tent, although I did grab the plywood from Home Depot yesterday.

Also, was doing some cleaning in the office, and realized I probably should've given the 1000MH bulb (found that as well as some other good stuff) I had a shot whilst vegging for the past month; oh well


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## smokingrubber (Dec 3, 2009)

It says you just have to soak it in Hydrocloric acid (once a month). It's available for concrete workers so it shouldn't be too hard to purchase.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 3, 2009)

Lol, not going that far, but that is a nice segue into what I just did - finally got around to opening the H2O2 and put 20mL in my reservoir; somehow, must've spilled a drip or two on my hand. Had read that it "burned" skin, but I wasn't a believer and figured it wasn't a big deal - I was wrong. Felt a burning on my skin, and it's not "burned", per se, but bleached bright white. Not too worried about it, but kinda weird.

Anyhow, just came from the tent, and even though there's some yellowing on the weaker plants from the iron issue, other then that they're looking fairly immaculate, if I do say so myself. Growing an inch or two a day, killing me that I can't take some pics to show you guys.

Actually gonna try and get the veg tent done tomorrow, so that should be interesting.

Also going to have my dehumidifier constantly drain into a bucket, so that it won't continue to shut off from it being full - the water from that comes out at ~6PPM, so I'm going to use that as my main water source and only use my R/O filter when there's not enough of that water.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 4, 2009)

Pics would be appreciated. I'm wondering HOW yellow they got. Mine are looking a bit "light green" to me, but our definitions may be different (you are from 3tz away  ).


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## Bob Smith (Dec 5, 2009)

Sorry I don't have pics, but it's the same as this link (post 33, pic #2)

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/263835-600w-4x4-hydrohut-silver-edition.html

There's also a discussion about it at the bottom of the thread between Statik and me.


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## cazador (Dec 5, 2009)

subscribed and trying to catch up.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 5, 2009)

Glad to have you, cazador.

Just got back from Home Depot and the dro store, trying to get some building done today - also gave it some more thought, and I'm going to get a generator, but a propane one (thanks to that link that you provided, caz - no need to kill myself when it seems like propane lasts plenty long enough and is not shady at all to get filled up). Need to do some more research on the make and model (CD-3 or CD-6) that I need and ensure that a generator will work okay with a tent, but that's what I'm 90% sure I'm going to do.

Going to keep my CO2 tanks and regulator in case I need to run them in the summer because the temps are too hard to keep in check running a generator.

Also going to order this ozone generator:

http://www.businesslights.com/cap-ozn1-ozone-generator-up-to-5500-sq-ft-p-1865.html

Even though I have a filter in the tent, since there's not constant negative pressure, some smells can leak out (not too bad, but I'll catch a whiff every now and then in the driveway), so I figure an ozone generator should get rid of any residual smells that escape from the tent (also going to fully seal up the garage door cracks, so that should help as well).

Um, need to see how the building goes, but I think that I'm gonna stay with the bubble cloner (as opposed to E&F), and build a three bucket system (or three individual buckets, not quite sure yet). The only plants that didn't have problems in the buckets were the clones, and it's a pretty foolproof method, so I'm going with that.

So that will be two separate 2x4 trays for mamas and vegging plants, and three buckets for clones in the veg tent, in case anyone's keeping score at home.


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## cazador (Dec 5, 2009)

I am also looking at the cd-6 but now watching this thread. I am now waiting a little and looking into the tank method. I don't have any worries about filling just not sure about cost and how often I'd need to refill. I like your thinking about having both. I have the CHHC-1. I have been playing with my LP camping heater to see how fast the CO2 PPMs rise. It gets the room up to over 1500 in about ten mins. I really wasn't timing. It stays high for quite some time. (1-2 hours latter its around 900). I do feel light-headed when I'm in there now that the PPMS are high. Are there other gasses such as CO given off? Is it the lack of oxygen? Or the build up of CO2 that messes with your head? Oh, I don't stay in there long anymore while the PPMs are high. But it got me thinking about the difference between the two (tank vs gen). Tank enriches with co2. A gen eats oxygen and adds things like CO2, water vapor, heat...not sure what else. Also the prices for the gens seem high. solenoid valve, igniter, burner and thermocouple whats so hard about that. Oh add some metal work to hold it all. anyone know of any home made LP CO2 gens? Why $500+. Am I missing something? Well I think I'll do both too. But like I said I am watching and listening for a few days/weeks.


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## statik (Dec 5, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, not going that far, but that is a nice segue into what I just did - finally got around to opening the H2O2 and put 20mL in my reservoir; somehow, must've spilled a drip or two on my hand. Had read that it "burned" skin, but I wasn't a believer and figured it wasn't a big deal - I was wrong. Felt a burning on my skin, and it's not "burned", per se, but bleached bright white. Not too worried about it, but kinda weird.
> 
> Anyhow, just came from the tent, and even though there's some yellowing on the weaker plants from the iron issue, other then that they're looking fairly immaculate, if I do say so myself. Growing an inch or two a day, killing me that I can't take some pics to show you guys.
> 
> ...


I had a buddy who used to do the same thing with his dehumidifier Bob. He would let the bucket fill and then just dump it into his res. he of course would have to do some adjusting afterward...but no BIG deal.

Can't wait to see some pics of what you got going on in there now.

I hope to get my caretaker to take some pics tonight so I can upload them.

Anyway, thought I should "officially" sub to this thread. 

Happy growing buddy.

~Statik~


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## Bob Smith (Dec 5, 2009)

Yeah, that's what I do anyways - I always top off my reservoir with pure water before adding nutes or pH'ing it.

Anywho, forgot to buy two legs at Home Depot, so need to run back there tomorrow - hoping to have the tent setup by then, but in all likelihood will probably spill into early next week.

Will have my camera back tomorrow, though, so I'll do a pic update at some point (most likely later in the afternoon).

EDIT: Thanks for stopping by Statik, happy to have you aboard.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 5, 2009)

So, going to go with all Super Skunk for my next harvest, and then will have the indica mama, Super Skunk, Bubblelicious, and NYPD mothers vegging.

Looking to add new strains one at a time so I can carefully choose the best mother from each five beans, so I'd like to know what strain you boys and girls think I should start with first.

There's Ice, Master Kush, and AK-48, all from Nirvana.

Would love input from you guys.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 5, 2009)

That's a tough choice. I haven't smoke or grown any of them. I vote for Master Kush on name appeal. That's just me  Ice sounds addictive and AK sounds fellonious.


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## statik (Dec 5, 2009)

I and a few buddies have always wanted to check out Ice. So out of pure curiosity, my vote goes to Ice.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 5, 2009)

Yeah, I'm leaning towards Ice out of the three, but will wait for the votes to be tallied.

So far, 2 for Ice, 1 for Master Kush, and 0 for AK-48.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 6, 2009)

Hey I better get on this

Ice- Have seen some growing and smoked it. It was Nirvana. The final product was absolutely beautiful.....
AK-48- You have seen Abjnm's AK 48 grow I believe. My only knowledge of it is in there and it looks like one hell of a strain. The yield looks fairly impressive. 

I say go with them both.............. AK-48 for the purpose of a formal vote!


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## JN811 (Dec 6, 2009)

Ice is a very tall plant dude, looks like ill get a good yield from it so ICE!


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## Abnjm (Dec 6, 2009)

I vote Ice. I've already watched an AK-48 grow! LOL!


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## statik (Dec 6, 2009)

So far it looks like the community is leaning towards Ice Bob. Im not going to complain.


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## poofy95 (Dec 6, 2009)

Ice ice ice ice ice.


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 6, 2009)

i know its not one of the strains you listed but i say Purple Kush.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 7, 2009)

ve got PK coming. Crossing my fingers for a fem


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

Looks like Ice is the pick, going to start germing some seeds either tonight or tomorrow - still need to get the veg tent setup; really, really been dragging my feet on that. Just need to build one more support and it should be all ready to rock 'n roll, we'll see.

In the meantime, got the camera back last night and took some pics right before lights came on of the ladies.

Really quick though, I'll show you my new dehumidifier setup.



Got tired of emptying out the bucket three times a day, and also of finding 94% humidity in there when it would shut-off because the bucket wasn't emptied, so set it up for constant drainage.

The green hose drains into the bottom of what used to be a toolbox, and then the 185GPH pump comes on to pump the water into my clean water trash can - it's on the same timer as my flood table pump, which is every two hours fro 9:00pm to 9:00am and then once at 3:00pm.

Now, here's pics of the ladies (the last one was taken when the light was first starting up, which is why it looks kinda pink). Other then that, no complaints - the iron deficiency is fixed, and the canopy is relatively even (as much as can be expected).



Questions, comments, and criticisms are always welcome.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

Was thinking of changing my 12/12 schedule from 9:00pm to 9:00am back to 9:00am to 9:00pm - a large reason I've been dragging my feet on this veg tent is because I'm hesitant to go in there and turn on a bunch of lights (yes, they're in a tent, but no tent is 100% light-proof).

Also, that schedule is more designed for summertime, when battling high temps, so the question is this:

Anyone see an issue with just leaving the lights off until 9:00am tomorrow? Basically, 24 hours of darkness, 9:00am today until 9:00am tomorrow. I'm damn sure it won't be much of an issue if at all, but would appreciate confirmation of this or someone telling me that I'm wrong about it.

This time schedule will also allow me to care for the plants better, so it's a win-win.

BTW, went through my third bottle of CO2 last night, and the refill place isn't open today, so I'll be heading there tomorrow.

Looking at generators as we speak, although I'd love to find on on Craiglist for cheap.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

This was posted in another thread, but thought it'd be worthwhile to put in here for anyone considering adding CO2 (as well as if anyone wants to check my math).

Quote:
Originally Posted by *smokingrubber*  
_I thought you just refilled those? How long are the tanks lasting? Please keep us informed on your generator hunt. "WE" need one that doesn't have to be in the tent. Have to make sure filling the propane bottles isn't more frequent and more $ than filling the Co2 tanks._

I refilled them the first (and only, so far) time (hold on, checking picture dates) on October 27th, but didn't start using my big tent until November 10th.

So, have gone through three tanks in about 30 days, but to be fair, 24 of those days were vegging with the CO2 running 24/7, and the first tank that I put on I installed incorrectly and let a lot of the gas out.

Regardless, propane is much, much, much more efficient then bottled CO2.

Using the link below and running some numbers (one pound of liquid CO2 is equivalent to 7 pounds of gaseous CO2, so each 20# tank gives you 140 cubic feet of gas), the numbers are overwhelming.

One 25# tank of propane will get me 2700 cubic feet of CO2, whereas each 20 pound bottle gets me 140. That's more then 19 times as efficient.

https://www.greenair.com/page/co2-ge...ing-chart.html

EDIT: even taking into account that the delivery system for CO2 is more efficient with a regulator and tanks, it's nowhere near worth the time and money of getting them refilled every 30-50 days. Also, there's nothing shady about getting a propane tank filled, whereas I'm anticipating some shady looks from the welding supply store guys already, and am somewhat dreading if I have to go again in another month or two.


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## statik (Dec 7, 2009)

I had some plants go through a 24 hr dark period a couple years back during flower. Power outage. No issues to report of Bob.

Glad the iron issue worked itself out too. Looking good buddy.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 7, 2009)

Could you bump it a little each day? 14 hr dark and 12 hr light each day for 6 days. Less stress maybe. I don't THINK 24hr of dark would hurt, but small changes are always safer.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

Thanks for the input, boys - just gonna go with 24 hours of dark.

Smoking, your way might work, but I think that actually might lead to a greater chance of issues then simply going 24 hours off (plus it's a lot more work, and I'm a lazy sonuvabitch).

Trying to decide if I need to put a heater in my veg reservoir (temps are getting down to 55 in the garage, which would mean 50 in the reservoir) - according to the thread I'm reading, this guy claims that he likes the reservoir temps to get as low as possible, and shoots for 55 - his pics speak for themselves.

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/237271-lucas-formula-hydroponic-grow-journal.html


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## cazador (Dec 7, 2009)

On the subject of CO2... which is very much on my mind these days. I want to get. While I have no experience as of yet, I am playing with my LP heater in the room and can say it brings my levels up very quickly. I think this small LP tank could last for a very very long time. I have no real data yet but can see that it only takes 5-10 mins to raise the PPMs to 1500 and they stay there for quite some time. I am going to start to log more info when I have the time to just sit around and watch. I will get a generator at some point soon, but am researching a way to put one together myself as I think they are a bit pricey. I'd like to hear more about all your thoughts on using a tank too. (I don't want to steal the thread but Bob did bring it up)


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

When you say "using a take", did you mean "using a tank"?

If so, couldn't really be much easier - just hook it up to my Sentinel, set the PPMs, and it does the rest; I'm assuming that the generator won't be quite as simple or keep my PPMs in as tight of a band around 1500 (+/- 75) - I think with a generator it'll be more like +/- 200 (but that's a pure guess).

And no worries about jacking the thread, I welcome open discussion of anything and everything growing related (just no healthcare reform talk, social security, war effort, etc.).

EDIT: haven't the foggiest of how to build one, but I believe I'm going to order this one shortly (within a couple of days):

http://cgi.ebay.com/CAP-GEN-1-CO2-GENERATOR-BURNER_W0QQitemZ360205409854QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item53ddea5e3e

Wondering if anyone knows anything about it, and also what people who know about these things thoughts were on the electronic ignition for an extra $50 - is it worth it, are they reliable (vs. a pilot), etc.

DOUBLE EDIT: And also anything else that I'd need to order in addition to that to start making my own CO2 (besides a propane tank, I'll grab two or three from Home Depot next time I'm there). Also, anyone know of anywhere that has the ozone generator below in stock? Every place I've looked says it's on backorder until the middle or end of December.

http://www.businesslights.com/cap-ozn1-ozone-generator-up-to-5500-sq-ft-p-1865.html


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## cazador (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm not cheap by nature but I like to check out my options first. I would like some thoughts on this idea. A LP wall heater (I found this for $90 on another site.) http://www.bigedgesports.com/product.asp?pid=2335105&rf=gbase

I suppose if you can place it on a wall you can hang it too. I think taking out the ceramic flame catch will prevent it from pushing the heat forward. Only need to run it for a few mins at a time. I think your right about not being able to keep the PPMs in as tight of a band. When my controller hits 1300 I turn the heater off and it still climbs to 1500+


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## cazador (Dec 7, 2009)

Ok, I see that the piezo ignition will not work for what I need but I do see similar models that connect to a thermostat, provide blue flame instead of the radiant for around $159
http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/index.php?action=store&page=ProcomWallFloor

what do you think? what's the difference? thanks.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

That I honestly have no idea - in all honesty, I'd spend the extra $150 for a model designed to produce CO2 and minimize heat as opposed to one designed to produce heat and minimize CO2.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 7, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> That I honestly have no idea - in all honesty, I'd spend the extra $150 for a model designed to produce CO2 and minimize heat as opposed to one designed to produce heat and minimize CO2.


Yeah, unless you're REAL familiar with that kind of thing . . . I'd drop the $ too!

EDIT: Kudos for the DIY thought. It might work, but there has to be SOME reason no one else is doing it?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

Yeah, just emailed the guy on eBay, and as soon as he confirms that it's in stock I'm going to order it - hopefully tonight.

Also, waiting to get some responses to this thread just to confirm that using a generator with a tent is a feasible:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/280852-co2-generator-sentinel-chhc-1-a.html


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## cazador (Dec 7, 2009)

I hear ya. 
I just don't see any difference. A flame is a flame. It burns and turns into heat, CO2 and water. 
If I go this route I'll let you know how it goes if your interested. Not sure if I'm there yet. 
I'll try to wait to see how Mr. Smith likes his new generator.

------------------------cut from my post------------------------
OK I have been looking at vent-less LP wall heaters to use as a LP CO2 generator and would like some feedback.

The cheapest CO Generators I see are around $500.

https://www.greenair.com/product/cd-3lp.html

and only put out about 3Cu.Ft. of CO2

According to the chart, 3Cu.Ft. of CO2 causes 2183 BTUs of heat to be given off. 

A $150.00, 10,000 BTU Vent-less wall heater should put out about 14Cu.Ft. of CO2. Not bad.

http://www.stpaulmercantile.com/inde...rocomWallFloor

What do you all think about this?

Thanks. 


----------------end cut ------------------------------


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

I'm not sure what you mean by "vent-less" generators?

And you're probably right about a flame being a flame, but I'm just gonna err on the safe side and buy a generator designed for CO2.

And in terms of cost this one that I'm about to order (sometime tonight, the seller has confirmed that it's available, so I'm just waiting for a response or two to my thread to make sure that they'll work with a tent) is only $315, delivered to my door.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=360205409854

EDIT: also waiting to hear if the electronic ignition for $50 is a worthwhile option - not sure what value it would add, and (for whatever reason) it seems like it'd be less dependable then a good old pilot flame.


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## cazador (Dec 7, 2009)

Not a bad deal at all. I didn't want to suggest that you do it. I totally understand paying the $ for a CO2 Gen. I may do it soon myself. I just thought they might be doing the same thing and that I could get one on craigslist for around $50-75. They should be safe to run and easy to hook up too. Just what I was thinking for myself and wanted to hear what you all might think about it. Thanks I'll drop it now.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 7, 2009)

Bob, where are you going to put it? It has to have at least 18" of clearance in all directions. Up and down too. Nothing flamable (weed) near it. And it's big. Are you just going to hang it in the greenhouse and soak the area? That may make it difficult using the sentinal inside the tent. Just thinking out loud.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Bob, where are you going to put it? It has to have at least 18" of clearance in all directions. Up and down too. Nothing flamable (weed) near it. And it's big. Are you just going to hang it in the greenhouse and soak the area? That may make it difficult using the sentinal inside the tent. Just thinking out loud.


Not an effing clue, my man, not an effing clue.

Gonna order it tonight, wait for it to be delivered, then figure out what the hell to do with it.

Pretty sure I can just rest it on the floor, no? I don't believe it has to be mounted, but if it does, I'll figure something out.

One thing's for certain, and that's the fact that I'm getting rid of bottled CO2 and trips to refill tanks.


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## superryder (Dec 7, 2009)

fat grow bud nice work keep it up!!..........PEACE!!!


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## smokingrubber (Dec 7, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Not an effing clue, my man, not an effing clue.
> 
> Gonna order it tonight, wait for it to be delivered, then figure out what the hell to do with it.
> 
> ...


I suppose you could sit it on the floor, but Co2 is heavy and stays on the floor. . . . If your tent has floor vents, that could work! Close them all off except the one vent near the gen. 2ft away of course. The single burner kind shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Im guessn here so if you blow up . . . sorry.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 7, 2009)

Check this out: http://www.growlightexpress.com/carbon-dioxide-co2-31/hydrogen-water-cooled-co2-generator-lp-113.html


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> I suppose you could sit it on the floor, but Co2 is heavy and stays on the floor. . . . If your tent has floor vents, that could work! Close them all off except the one vent near the gen. 2ft away of course. The single burner kind shouldn't be too much of a problem.
> 
> Im guessn here so if you blow up . . . sorry.


Yeah, would definitely have to figure out a way to get the CO2 up high - perhaps hanging it from the ceiling, and then running some exhaust hose down into the ceiling of my tent and releasing it that way.

Or perhaps having an inline fan attached to some ducting next to the generator, which turns on and off when the generator turns on and off - would suck up the CO2, and blow it into the tent.

Lotsa options, I've overcome a lot already, not too worried about figuring this out.

Also like that if I want to, can convert it to a natural gas generator and run off of the line through the garage, should refilling propane ever become too much of a pain in the ass (doubtful, but a nice option to have).


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Check this out: http://www.growlightexpress.com/carbon-dioxide-co2-31/hydrogen-water-cooled-co2-generator-lp-113.html


Yeah, there's a bunch of threads on RIU about that generator, and not a lot of positive feedback.

The idea's great, but it seems like there's still tons of bugs to overcome (although perhaps the more recent models have overcome those difficulties).

Integra is looking to get one of those, he probably knows more then I do.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 7, 2009)

Did you watch the video? Very interesting. Very informative about both kinds while running.

EDIT: Found this little nugget of knowledge I thought I would share. If you didn't already know.

The Canadians discovered that adding C02 to plants at the seedling-rooted cutting stage - for about two weeks - produced two benefits: faster early growth and greater final crop yield, even without extra C02 during green growth or crop production! This is useful information for hobby gardeners since a little extra carbon dioxide for rooted cuttings and seedlings can help plants so much. If you use tall, clear covers over your baby plants, release a little C02 under the cover to raise the C02 levels to about 1500 PPM. Remove covers to let in fresh air after a few hours, and be sure plants have only fresh air (no extra C02) during dark periods. The two-week period leading up to transplanting is the most effective time for this C02 technique. If you are already using C02 for other purposes, try treating your 'small fry' with this proven growth and crop stimulator.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Did you watch the video? Very interesting. Very informative about both kinds while running.


Watched the first three minutes of it; if anything, it confirmed my decision - just looking at the pics with the covers off, the number of things that can go wrong with the HydroGen is infinitely larger - the unit that I ordered two minutes ago (yuppers, pulled the trigger) simply had a pilot light - no other issues.

The good thing about seeing that video is that it looks like hanging it shouldn't be that big of an issue, so I could just hang it and have the CO2 "drop" into the top of the tent.

Only other thing I'm unsure about is how the propane tank hooks up, which will determine if I'd be able to mount it (if I'd even need to, really think that a fan on the same circuit as the generator would be able to supply the room perfectly fine - and, as an indirect benefit, would probably help me to keep the CO2 in a closer "band" then simply burning it in a "freebase" method.

I'm stoked, should be here in about a week.


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## cazador (Dec 7, 2009)

Shouldn't get to hot below it. I'd think sitting on the floor would work fine if you have the clearance side to side and on top. Just blow a fan on it so that it doesn't bother the flame or the lighting of it but keeps the heat moving and I guess you could keep it fairly close to the plants.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

cazador said:


> Shouldn't get to hot below it. I'd think sitting on the floor would work fine if you have the clearance side to side and on top. Just blow a fan on it so that it doesn't bother the flame or the lighting of it but keeps the heat moving and I guess you could keep it fairly close to the plants.


Cazador, the generator is going to be in the garage by itself, whereas the plants are in their respective tents, so there will be at a minimum a tent "wall" between the plants and generator.

Not too worried about the heat being produced by it right now, and when I do need to think about it in April through October; well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.


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## cazador (Dec 7, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Cazador, the generator is going to be in the garage by itself, whereas the plants are in their respective tents, so there will be at a minimum a tent "wall" between the plants and generator.
> 
> Not too worried about the heat being produced by it right now, and when I do need to think about it in April through October; well, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it.


 
I was just catching that and now realize.

Congratulations on the purchase. Hope you like it and works out. I'll keep watching.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 7, 2009)

Also just bought this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItemVersion&item=260516978185&view=all&tid=507001473016

Should handle any residual odors that the carbon filter doesn't handle.

Probably done shopping for tonight, but that's never a guarantee with me.


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## statik (Dec 8, 2009)

I have been meaning to ask Bob, how many plants do you have in your 4x4?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 8, 2009)

statik said:


> I have been meaning to ask Bob, how many plants do you have in your 4x4?


28 right now; shooting to have 25 under each 1K when I expand in a couple of months to an 8x4 tent with two 1Ks.

For my next run, though, thinking I'm gonna go true SOG and have 64 Super Skunk clones in there.

Who the hell knows though..........made some good progress and went shopping today, hopefully will have an update later tonight, but definitely by tomorrow.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 8, 2009)

BTW, looks like I should've done a little more research on my CO2 generator - might have to order a HydroGen as well, because it seems that is able to be pumped into a tent.

Oh well, another $300 down the tubes, what else is new?


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## statik (Dec 8, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> 28 right now; shooting to have 25 under each 1K when I expand in a couple of months to an 8x4 tent with two 1Ks.
> 
> For my next run, though, thinking I'm gonna go true SOG and have 64 Super Skunk clones in there.
> 
> Who the hell knows though..........made some good progress and went shopping today, hopefully will have an update later tonight, but definitely by tomorrow.


So as of right now I only have 6 more than you in mine. Okay. Thanks, I dont want mine getting too damn big...so I think I may be throwing them into flower next week..depending on a couple factors. That's some info for my thread though. 

Thanks again man.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 8, 2009)

statik said:


> So as of right now I only have 6 more than you in mine. Okay. Thanks, I dont want mine getting too damn big...so I think I may be throwing them into flower next week..depending on a couple factors. That's some info for my thread though.
> 
> Thanks again man.


I started flowering when the majority of clones were ~12", and I think that's gonna work out to be about the right height with that number of plants.

Probably shoot for ~8" if I do 64 next round.


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## statik (Dec 8, 2009)

You're the man Bob, yeah..I need to flower in the next two weeks MAX. The majority of my plants are a about a foot or more now. Shit...hydro store needs to get my glass right....and fast!


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## Integra21 (Dec 8, 2009)

I was gona try to point that out about the hydrogen. You should also have enough room to put a large res outside of the tent, so you wont have to spend the $$$ to cool it.I would run it that way or drain to waste. And the link posted above is the cheapest place to order it from. Let me know how it works out bob. Still waiting om some money to order mine, but still have every intention of doing so. Grow is looking super sexy, I'd pick up one of those girls on guys night out.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 8, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> I was gona try to point that out about the hydrogen. You should also have enough room to put a large res outside of the tent, so you wont have to spend the $$$ to cool it.I would run it that way or drain to waste. And the link posted above is the cheapest place to order it from. Let me know how it works out bob. Still waiting om some money to order mine, but still have every intention of doing so. Grow is looking super sexy, I'd pick up one of those girls on guys night out.


Hey, thanks man

Looks like I probably bought the wrong generator for my needs, but I'll see if I can make it work for me.

Just got done five hours of wrestling with a tent in the garage, have it up on its stand, but that's about it - going to try and finish tomorrow morning.


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## Integra21 (Dec 9, 2009)

keeppluging away at it. I feel your pain, over the last couple weeks I have doing the finishing touches on my new veg room, double checking all of my layout and equipment for the flower room changes, and designed and built a 1200w room for a buddy. His shit turned out real pimp. I'll be putting pics of that up soon. Its basically just a larger scale of my setup in a room of normal height. But like I said, frickin sweet. Only one 600w in there now until he gets the hang of taking care of plants. We just droped 4 of my Blue Kush clones in there today.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 9, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> keeppluging away at it. I feel your pain, over the last couple weeks I have doing the finishing touches on my new veg room, double checking all of my layout and equipment for the flower room changes, and designed and built a 1200w room for a buddy. His shit turned out real pimp. I'll be putting pics of that up soon. Its basically just a larger scale of my setup in a room of normal height. But like I said, frickin sweet. Only one 600w in there now until he gets the hang of taking care of plants. We just droped 4 of my Blue Kush clones in there today.


Very kind of you. Good friends are HARD to find! Hope he appreciates it. +rep. Can't wait to see the pics. I too love building shit with other people's money


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

Can't wait to see some pics, man 

And as far as "wrestling with a tent", that phrase doesn't do it justice - was basically swinging the tent around like a baseball bat trying to get it to fit in-between ceiling beams.

Was just going to saw the beams off at one point, but then just cut the legs on my stand shorter.

Long story short, making progress and the end is in sight - FYI, killed the sativa mama, so the only two plants that will be in the new veg tent will be the indica mama and a super skunk mama, until I get my clone setup going, hopefully by tomorrow.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 9, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Can't wait to see some pics, man
> 
> And as far as "wrestling with a tent", that phrase doesn't do it justice - was basically swinging the tent around like a baseball bat trying to get it to fit in-between ceiling beams.
> 
> ...


I hope you got video of _that_!  Those are moments when having a friend or two can really come in handy. Did you try taking it apart and assembling it while it was on the table? I know, "don't fit" = "don't friggin fit mf" but Im just sayin. I know my tent was a mf to build and I'm 6'4" (would be easier the second time now I know what I'm doing).

Can't wait to see video of "Veg-Majal"


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> I hope you got video of _that_!  Those are moments when having a friend or two can really come in handy. Did you try taking it apart and assembling it while it was on the table? I know, "don't fit" = "don't friggin fit mf" but Im just sayin. I know my tent was a mf to build and I'm 6'4" (would be easier the second time now I know what I'm doing).
> 
> Can't wait to see video of "Veg-Majal"


Lol..............I have tons of friends (too many, sometimes), but I take rule #1 quite seriously, which means that I'm the only one who ever goes in the garage (or knows about it).

And I would've loved to take video for you, but even I (I'm 6'3, 230) needed to use both hands to swing that tent around like a ragdoll - long story short, I mis-measured by two inches, so chopped four inches off of the legs, and it fit fine - means that my reservoir will not be fully under it, but I'm not too worried about that.

Honestly shouldn't take me much longer, and I'm gonna run out to grab the other 2x4 tray and pump for the tent in an hour or two - hoping to have it completely finished by 3:00, when it's happy hour on my poker site.

BTW, have made about $15K in the past month (straight cash games, no "big score" at a tournament or anything like that), which is always nice around Christmas time - giving serious thought to just playing poker full time and growing weed, as opposed to ever working for someone again.

We'll see though.


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## Integra21 (Dec 9, 2009)

I build my own tents out of pvc and poly to avoid that frustration, but that brings around some new frustration of its own sometimes. but the $ saving factor and having it custom fit to where ever its going makes it my best option. the other reason I build and grow the way I do, is I can make my whole room disappear in about 5 minutes if I have to, plants and all.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> I build my own tents out of pvc and poly to avoid that frustration, but that brings around some new frustration of its own sometimes. but the $ saving factor and having it custom fit to where ever its going makes it my best option. the other reason I build and grow the way I do, is I can make my whole room disappear in about 5 minutes if I have to, plants and all.


Was thinking about that for my next upgrade (which will be an 8x4 setup with 2 1Ks) - in all honesty, thought, I like the heavier weight of the tents (compared to panda film), so I'll probably just buy another Sun Hut.

If I were to custom build one, I might run 4 600s over two 6x6 tables, but I think that's probably more trouble then it's worth.


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## Integra21 (Dec 9, 2009)

a good argument about that being the right way to go is that 600w lights are the most efficient(lumen/watt) out of all of the hids. Thats why I used them in my buddys setup, I would have used them myself, but I dont think my height will allow it.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> a good argument about that being the right way to go is that 600w lights are the most efficient(lumen/watt) out of all of the hids. Thats why I used them in my buddys setup, I would have used them myself, but I dont think my height will allow it.


Truthfully, I've never understood that argument - that held true back in the day, but with today's technology, I don't believe it does.

150,000 lumens/1000 watts = 150 L/W

90,000/600 watts = 150 L/W

Now I realize that a 1000 watt actually uses like 1100 watts, but still, that's negligible to me.

Also, I like the denser nugs and increased light penetration - the only reason not to use 1Ks is because of heat, and it seems like I've got that problem solved (until summertime, at least).

All right, break time's over, back to work


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## Integra21 (Dec 9, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Truthfully, I've never understood that argument - that held true back in the day, but with today's technology, I don't believe it does.
> 
> 150,000 lumens/1000 watts = 150 L/W
> 
> ...


its real close to that, but you are using the brightest 1000w bulb specs and not the brightest 600w. Only a small difference, but it still makes the point valid
150,000 from 1000w=150l/w
95,000 from 600w=158l/w
so it is barely noticable, but there, and a better comparison would be the horilux bulbs since they seem to be everyones favorites at
145,000 from 1000w=145l/w
88,000 from 600w=147l/w
again, the difference is there, just barely noticable, but it makes the statement of most efficient true. Giving the 600w and extra 960lumens when compared to the 1000w.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

Was making some decent progress, then realized that I need to setup the top of the tent before I put any trays/stands in, and then started to duct tape stuff until I realized that worm drive clamps (thanks Twils) work much, much better.

So, heading to Home Depot to grab some, which should take me about right up to 3:00pm poker time, and then the old lady gets home, so my progress for the rest of the day will be limited.

Anyways, charged my camera battery and took some random pics..........



The last pic is the sativa mother which I tossed.



Old airstones, the two 2x4 trays that are going in there, and some nutes, a pump, and an aquarium heater that I bought. The yellow bottle is a freebie.



Pics of the ladies - they're doing great, and drinking a few gallons a day now - rez is at 5.6pH, 1200PPMs (2.4EC). Still just topping off with R/O water and nute'ing and pH'ing from there.



It's a fugging mess in my garage, can barely move in there.

So, that's about it - heading to Home Depot to get some worm drive clamps, a small electric heater for the tent, and 10' of 1/2" tubing, if they have it.


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## statik (Dec 9, 2009)

Girls are looking happy Bob. How many days into flower are you now? I know you just flipped, still curious though.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

I flipped on Dec. 1, so 8 or 9 days, I guess - hoping the stretch stops soon, the tallest seedling is already within 12" of the light.

On another note, was going to say screw poker today and just finish the tent, but my girl's got a ton of stuff today when she gets home, so I'll resume work when poker's done at 5:00pm.

Should at least get the mothers in there today - tested out the tray and two buckets (for clones) on the bottom, and even though it's tight, it fits.

EDIT: shooting to have the cloning buckets setup for tomorrow, when I trim off the lower parts of all the flowering girls - need to get that done ASAP so there's no waiting time between harvest and starting off my next crop.


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## Integra21 (Dec 9, 2009)

looking great bob. They are really coming along. Next time you snap shots of the flowering girls, can you take some at lights out. Would love to see the color and health of these girls and the light makes it hard. Keep on building and it has to be done eventually. Did i miss it, you picked your next strain to grow right? I forgot to say my vote was Ice. Later, hope you clean house on poker tonight.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 9, 2009)

You have a digital ballast. Are they really dead quiet and put off better power than magnetic? Just wondering.


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## Integra21 (Dec 9, 2009)

yeah, I'm running a Lumatek 400w, it runs completely silent. It gets fairly warm, so I keep it out of the room, but I am very pleased with the performance. Havent had any problems in the 6 months I've had it. I have no way of comparing actual light output, but I can say that when people take pics with magnetics, sometimes you get those weird lines through the photos, but have never seen that happen with digital.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

I had a digital for both my 400 and 1000, and they work great.

Flooded my 100, so had to get a magnetic - haven't noticed any difference yet, save that the cheapo ballast I bought gets a lot warmer.

Already up about $1K in poker after an hour, so might quit early today and get back to building.

Integra, it looks like the votes are in for Ice - wanna get my tent setup before I pop them, but hopefully will throw them in some water tonight.

Also, no problem on the pics with lights out, will take and post tomorrow morning.


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## dangledo (Dec 9, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Truthfully, I've never understood that argument - that held true back in the day, but with today's technology, I don't believe it does.
> 
> 150,000 lumens/1000 watts = 150 L/W
> 
> ...



Besides lumen per watt, Does anyone think inverse square law has a factor, not in efficiency but in effectiveness. Meaning the distance, and number of light sources.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 9, 2009)

Dangledo, not really sure what you're asking.

As a quick update, did a solid few hours in the garage, the tent's coming together nicely - took pics along the way, I'll post tomorrow morning before I start finishing up the work.

Actually coming together as good as I could've hoped, kinda stoked on it.

Night all.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 9, 2009)

Hey Bob Veg tent overhaul complete over here. Pics are uploading now!


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## smokingrubber (Dec 10, 2009)

Hope you guys got before/after shots for us.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 10, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Hope you guys got before/after shots for us.


I definitely do - couldn't sleep so logged on at about 2:00pm, and fucking RIU wouldn't let me load the pics.

Anyways, about to start on today's work, should be a few hours.

Also heading to the hydro store (3rd day straight) to order 50 more neoprene inserts (building a three bucket, 72 site system) and also to buy some 6" square pots to hold my mothers.

Looking through the catalog now to see if there's 4" square pots to veg 72 plants under my 400 - I'm sure they're somewhere, if not at the hydro store then online it will have to be.

Tent's starting to look really, really sick - plus, ,I'm now kinda handy with a drill, so I'm mounting the electrical and making all that look as pretty as possible.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 10, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> ... plus, ,I'm now kinda handy with a drill, so I'm mounting the electrical ....


 
 Oh shit!  Good supply of band-aids too? No hammers . . . right?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 10, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Oh shit!  Good supply of band-aids too? No hammers . . . right?


I've actually been injury free so far (knock on wood).

About 85% done, now just mounting the electrical and checking that the top tray is cool - just flooded the bottom tray, and all's well there.

Have decided to ditch the bubble cloner, as the space didn't lend itself to buckets in addition to a tray on the bottom shelf - will probably go back to that eventually, but would need three buckets for the 72 clones I'm taking for my next run, and that's just not happening in that space.

Gonna go back to Rapid Rooters in a humidity dome, which isn't the worst thing in the world.

This fucking tent is badass right now, stoked to post pics and see what you guys think.

BTW, anyone know if there's such a thing as fireproof plywood (or a similar material)?

You guys are gonna flip your shit when you see what I've got planned to pump CO2 from the generator to my tent - it's some next level type shit.

Get your popcorn ready (and possibly a fire extinguisher or two ).


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## smokingrubber (Dec 10, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> BTW, anyone know if there's such a thing as fireproof plywood (or a similar material)?
> 
> You guys are gonna flip your shit when you see what I've got planned to pump CO2 from the generator to my tent - it's some next level type shit.
> 
> Get your popcorn ready (and possibly a fire extinguisher or two ).


It's available http://www.ecplaza.net/search/1s1nf5sell/fireproof_plywood.html

But it's pretty custom and probably not available at Depot (but it couldnt hurt to look). Back in the old days , they used brick or some kind of mortar setup. You could also use regualr plywood and line it with flame retardant cloth or some kind of spray. Who knows what kind of gassing you'd get off those materials.


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## Integra21 (Dec 10, 2009)

you dont need to use buckets to make a bubble cloner. you can us a standard flat sterilite tub and fit a shitload of clones in. it's easy and cheap to do and saves a lot of space over the buckets. will easily fit on shelves too. 










tis is the standard for my clone tub. I used 3.5" heavy duty pots, so only 8 could fit, but you could fit much more with the smaller collars or a bigger tub. this tub is about 7" tall.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 10, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> you dont need to use buckets to make a bubble cloner. you can us a standard flat sterilite tub and fit a shitload of clones in. it's easy and cheap to do and saves a lot of space over the buckets. will easily fit on shelves too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, should've mentioned that I was planning on doing that - just need to find one with the right measurements for me - looking for about 2.5' by 10", give or take.

Just need to do some research.

Anyways, it is with both happiness and regret that I'm currently ecstatic with the new tent setup, yet I must inform you all that it (probably) won't be done until tomorrow (poker's calling) - of course, might do it afterwards, but doubtful.

I'll say again, that shit is fucking badass - Rubber, you're gonna love the electrical setup, it's some Bob Vila (sp.?) shit.

Also, should mention that I'm going to take clones tomorrow, but because they'll be fairly large clones, I'm going to clone them in 6" square pots (28 of them in my bottom tray).

Will probably also take "normal" clones in a humidity dome with a heating pad, just in case something happens and the others don't make it as well as to get practice for my run of 72 coming up in about a month.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 10, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> Hey Bob Veg tent overhaul complete over here. Pics are uploading now!


Goddam braggart!!! 

Just kidding, saw it and it looks good..........and there's no excuse for my laziness and procrastination, but I'm hoping that when it's done it'll be well worth the wait for all of us............tune in tomorrow afternoon..........


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## wonderblunder (Dec 10, 2009)

Hey bob Just built a nifty little watering system. Not automatic or anything but is gonna make my life way easier.....


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## Bob Smith (Dec 11, 2009)

Title says it all, just gonna post pics and anyone with any questions about any of them feel free..............getting the 3.5" square pots that I ordered (75 of them) delivered on Monday, so gonna hold off on taking clones until then (maybe, might take some as tester); also, had to use my 633GPH pump for the top tray, as the 398GPH was struggling to make it all the way up there..........

View attachment 647241View attachment 647242


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## Integra21 (Dec 11, 2009)

Looking good bob. Glad you got all of the electrical off of the floor this time. it has nothing to do with performance, but once you know everything is setup how you like it, you can make the wiring look a lot cleaner using zipties. I'll have pics of what a difference they can make in appearance hopefully later tonight. I'm supposed to go check my buddys setup and snap some pics. And if I pull that off, expext a huge update from me by morning.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 11, 2009)

Looks great Bob. Make sure your drain is adeqete on the top tray or that big pump will outpace it and overfill. Maybe not a problem now, but it fills faster when the tray is full. Good job. When are the new tennants moving in?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 11, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Looks great Bob. Make sure your drain is adeqete on the top tray or that big pump will outpace it and overfill. Maybe not a problem now, but it fills faster when the tray is full. Good job. When are the new tennants moving in?


Yeah, that overflow drain is plenty sufficient to handle it - it's 3/4" tubing and fittings, vs. the 1/2" for the inflow valve.

Thinking of taking some clones tonight - gonna take four or five in the top tray and try to root them in E&F, and also take 20 or 30 in the lower tray in a humidome on a heatmat.

Gonna do that and some massive cleanup in there, I really made a fucking mess.

Also, need to put the 400HPS on the light yo-yos that I have at some point in the near future - figure I might as well use them, and what better place then there.

Finally, got my ozone generator delivered today, and also ordered an additional temperature controller to control the fan that cools my light in the flower tent - makes no sense to me that it would be running and necessitate the heater running (1500 watts) when I could just have it automated, save electricity, and keep my temps in a tighter band.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 12, 2009)

Too bad they don't have more connection options available on the sentinal. It seems like that's something that should be built in? I hope it helps.


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## Integra21 (Dec 12, 2009)

no lights out pics?


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## tmsculli (Dec 12, 2009)

integra, I actually made the EXACT same cloning bubbler as you. Sadly I suck at cloning for some reason and had 12 clones die in attempts to getting them rooted =/


Bob, everything looks great man. Can't wait to see some pics of the plants being nice and happy in their homes.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 13, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Too bad they don't have more connection options available on the sentinal. It seems like that's something that should be built in? I hope it helps.


If I wanted to, I could hook that fan up to the other two fans in the "cooling" setting, but I'd prefer for them to come on as little as possible, so I need to have that fan controlled by itself - they could make that change on the Sentinel, methinks, but they'd have to have two different cooling outlets and two different setpoints for them - my cooling comes on at 82, so I'm going to have the "light fan" turn on at about 77, to keep the exhaust fans from having to turn on.

Integra, sorry, been playing poker until about 4:00am every night, and haven't been up at 8:50am to get in there and take some pics - will make another effort tomorrow, assuming I can get to sleep at a reasonable hour.

Also, holding off until tomorrow to take the clones because that's when my 3.5" square pots are getting delivered - will take longer then usual for them to root and start vegging because they're already two weeks into flowering, so I'm going to take as many clones as possible - shooting for ~80ish, but we'll see.

Gonna do as many as I can in the E&F top tray, and then do the rest in a humidome under the fluorescents on bottom.


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## cazador (Dec 14, 2009)

Bob, Any pictures and description of your new CO2 setup? Interested to see how it's working out for you and what system you setup to get it to work outside your tent.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 14, 2009)

cazador said:


> Bob, Any pictures and description of your new CO2 setup? Interested to see how it's working out for you and what system you setup to get it to work outside your tent.


The generator's not getting delivered until tomorrow, so that's not gonna be up and running for at least a couple of days - need to run it and get a feel for the heat and CO2 generated, and then adjust my vision to fit that reality - BTW, seems as though at 1500PPMs, I'm going through a tank a week (died this morning, and am going to replace in a minute).

As far as today goes, going to do some changing of the veg tent (install and active intake and also put the 400HPS on some yo-yos for height adjustment).

Planning on the 3.5" pots being delivered around 5ish, so when they get here, going to take tons of clones.

Will take pics of the flower tent before and after their haircuts to show the amount of plant matter I've removed.

EDIT: Integra, still getting up too late to get those pics, but I guess I could do it right after the lights go out - assuming this wouldn't fuck around with the plants at all? For some reason I have it in my head that before lights on would be fine, but after lights off might be bad...........


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## smokingrubber (Dec 14, 2009)

I think before Lights On would be better because they're awake and waiting for the lights, vs right after Lights out when they're heads already on the pillow and they're about to slip off to amsterdam (or wherever plants dream about being).

Set your alarm stoner! You can go right back to bed LOL.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 14, 2009)

I hear ya with the before lights on good, and after lights off bad. I feel the same way but not sure why.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 14, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> I think before Lights On would be better because they're awake and waiting for the lights, vs right after Lights out when they're heads already on the pillow and they're about to slip off to amsterdam (or wherever plants dream about being).
> 
> Set your alarm stoner! You can go right back to bed LOL.


Lol, not a stoner at all - haven't smoked in about a month  (girl's getting drug tested tomorrow and I'm being supportive, although after the first couple of weeks I stopped longing for weed - might see how long I can go, as I'll hopefully be getting drug tested at some point if I ever decide to actually look for a new job).

My girl wakes up at 7:00am every day and leaves the house at about 8:00am - I'll just have her make sure to get me up (this is all for you, Integra).

And Wonder, I'm not sure why I think that either, but I'm hesitant to take pics after the lights go out.

Thanks for the input, guys.


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## blueybong (Dec 14, 2009)

Man you've done a nice job on the DIY Ebb & Grow!

Question: the wall mount fan, is it easy to adjust the height? 

How does it attach to the wall?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 14, 2009)

blueybong said:


> Man you've done a nice job on the DIY Ebb & Grow!
> 
> Question: the wall mount fan, is it easy to adjust the height?
> 
> How does it attach to the wall?


Which fan are you talking about? One of the inlines, or the oscillating fan in the flower tent?


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## blueybong (Dec 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Which fan are you talking about? One of the inlines, or the oscillating fan in the flower tent?


The 16" oscillating fan with the wall mount. But I've been reading through your journal and it appears that you're not using it.

I'm on page 5, so if you could let me know what type of fan you're using to blow over the plants I'd be grateful!


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## Bob Smith (Dec 14, 2009)

blueybong said:


> The 16" oscillating fan with the wall mount. But I've been reading through your journal and it appears that you're not using it.
> 
> I'm on page 5, so if you could let me know what type of fan you're using to blow over the plants I'd be grateful!


Not a problem my man - realize it's a lengthy and verbose journal (as an aside, setting posts per page at 40 helps).

Anyways, here's the fan I'm using:



And if you're strapped for time and just trying to check out my setup, go to youtube and do a search for "SOGBobSmith" - seven one minute videos will pop up (try to watch them in order).

It's a nice executive summary of my setup, although the journal walks you through my thinking, trials, and tribulations on the way.


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## blueybong (Dec 14, 2009)

Notes from videos:

LMAO #1 ~ Bucket wall of shame
LMAO #2 ~ when you pointed out the hole that you cut into the veg room for no good reason.
Lowes & Home Depot sell 4" & 6" clamps to hold the duct onto your exhaust fan.

Is that a Can-33?

Back to your oscillating fan, is it a 6" or 16"? It looks like a 6", but thought I'd ask.

Man you've really thought through the whole process. Hope you do a one minute vid of your E&G once up & running.

Cheers!


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## Bob Smith (Dec 14, 2009)

blueybong said:


> Notes from videos:
> 
> LMAO #1 ~ Bucket wall of shame
> LMAO #2 ~ when you pointed out the hole that you cut into the veg room for no good reason.
> ...


You should see the wall of shame now, it's about ten buckets larger.......and yeah, Twils put me on to those worm drive clamps for holding the ducting, they work great.

And the filter is a Phresh filter, 6" x 24" (rated for 550 CFM).

And the oscillating fan is a 12", seems to work great.

And thanks for the compliments, appreciate it.

EDIT: definitely gonna do a video of my veg tent once it's up and running, just need to make a couple more modifications.


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## statik (Dec 14, 2009)

Well, cant wait to see those pics buddy.

I don't really see how taking pics within minutes of the lights going out is going to cause issues, but I agree...err on the side of caution and snap them before lights pop on.

Haven't smoked in a month? Kudos man, backing your girl like that.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 14, 2009)

statik said:


> Well, cant wait to see those pics buddy.
> 
> I don't really see how taking pics within minutes of the lights going out is going to cause issues, but I agree...err on the side of caution and snap them before lights pop on.
> 
> Haven't smoked in a month? Kudos man, backing your girl like that.


Not a big deal, honestly - even when I do smoke, it's only once a day at about 9:00pm before I veg out in front of the TV.

Took 27 clones so far tonight off of three plants - Bubblelicious 1, 2, and NYPD 1.

6 large clones from each that went in the E&F tray up top (in the 3.5" pots), and 3 from each that went in rapid rooters in the humidome in the bottom tray.

Going to do another 54 big clones up top tomorrow and about 30 more down below; just making sure everything's kosher overnight before I take the rest of the clones (and I'm kinda lazy).

Also said fuck the light yo-yos - installed it and didn't like it, so if I need to adjust it, I'll just use some hooks and a chain.


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## statik (Dec 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Not a big deal, honestly - even when I do smoke, it's only once a day at about 9:00pm before I veg out in front of the TV.
> 
> Took 27 clones so far tonight off of three plants - Bubblelicious 1, 2, and NYPD 1.
> 
> ...


Word, I used Yo Yo's for my small (2ft) dual bulb fluoro's..they were ok for that. When it comes down to bigger lights though... Yo Yo's...

Chain and hooks all the way


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## Bob Smith (Dec 14, 2009)

Well, ran out to the garage and checked on them, and all's well so far.............also grabbed the camera, so here's some pics....



Here's some flower tent pics from this evening.............this stretch better fugging be over, they're all way too tall at this point. Also, I've been so lackluster about rotating the plants that the ones under the light are much, much stronger and the ones on the perimeter are weak and stretchy - need to figure out a good system to make sure they're rotated regularly, but am going to rearrange tomorrow morning after I take clones and trim them.



Burned my hand with some more H2O2, that shit is powerful.



Some before and after shots of the trimmed plants.



And here's some pics of the veg tent - there's 18 in the E&F tray up top and 9 in the humidome down below.

I also put the clone from my best super skunk that was in the flowering tent into the veg tent to turn into a mama, as it was too small and getting suffocated in the flowering tent.


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## Integra21 (Dec 14, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> EDIT: Integra, still getting up too late to get those pics, but I guess I could do it right after the lights go out - assuming this wouldn't fuck around with the plants at all? For some reason I have it in my head that before lights on would be fine, but after lights off might be bad...........


Here's the layout for how I take my pics. I go into my room about 5-10min before lights out. I clean uup if needed and take a second look for anything I might not want in the pics, and begin taking several whole room and close-up bud shots with the lights out. Then, usually during the middle of taking a pic, the lights co out. I start over taking fullroom and bud close-ups with the lights out and then close everything up when im done, usually around 5-10min after the lights go out. Trust me when I say this does nothing bad to your buds. I have done it since the begeninng of my growing.


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## blueybong (Dec 15, 2009)

Damn Bob ~ that flowering tent is packed! I bet trimming the lower branches will help with the air flow through the plant. 

And dude, that burn looks like it hurts. Ouch!!


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## SpruceZeus (Dec 15, 2009)

That H202 burns something fierce don't it?

Plants are looking good.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

A couple of things before I start with the pics and new ideas - still need to plug in my ozone generator, been dragging my feet on that.

Also, generator is getting delivered today, so that should be interesting.

And that's about it for the good news, now time for the sad reality of it all:

I waited too long to flower, and not rotating the plants for the first couple of weeks is going to be disastrous for my yield (oh well, I don't even smoke anymore, so not too killer).

Basically, the 3' of space from light to the start of the plants is too small for what I'm trying to do, but I don't think I could make my tray any lower for next run because of fitting the reservoir and dehumidifier in there, so what I'm planning to do is as follows (putting this in bold for those that skim):

*I'm going to do 144 plants in my 4x4 tray for next run, and flower them all at about 4-6".*

Yeah, I know that's a big change from before when I was worried about plant counts, but I'm not so worried anymore, and I frankly find it easier to take care of lots of small plants then fewer big plants.

So, while that ballsy assertion sinks in with you guys, here are the pics:

Integra, the following are for you:



Pics of the tent before lights come on.



Pics of some trimmed plants outside of the tent.

View attachment 651506

Here's the 36 clones in the E&F tray up top - 6 each of BL1, BL2, NYPD1, and NPYD2, along with 12 of the Indica Mama clones.

View attachment 651507

Same ratio down below, but only three Indica clones.



Some lights on pics.



More pics showing the new configuration - tallest plants on the outside, shortest on the inside - got my fingers crossed this helps me out a little bit, would like to salvage a half pound outta this grow if possible (realized after I trimmed them today that SCROG would've been my best bet to salvage what I could, but oh well) - BTW, staked all the colas, anywhere from 2-4 stakes per plant.



Shots of the trimmed parts of the plants, and also the new location for the Sentinel sensor - was being overgrown by the plants, so had to move it over.

Next steps:

Get this generator delivered and figure out an efficient delivery system for it, still thinking my box idea.

Order another 100 3.5" square pots for my next run.

Get these clones rooted ASAP to take more and more, as I'm obviously gonna need a lot.

Find 2x2 trays to make rotating the 144 plants easier.

Plug in my ozone generator.

And that's all I can think of for now.........as always, comments/questions/ideas are welcome and encouraged.

EDIT: Thanks Zeus, appreciate you stopping by - would also love your thoughts on the 9/sf idea if you wouldn't mind........


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## tmsculli (Dec 15, 2009)

Bob, I am in awe my good man. Being able to recreate natural conditions to that specific precision and maintaining the perfect health of 140 some odd plants is nothing short of amazing. As you were putting it all together I was honestly really really curious to see how it would go, but you have kept me surprised and impressed the whole time. I hope those 144 girls at 4-6" high bust a SOG of 2lb for you to chill on. Best of luck with the rest brother. I have harvested about 8g of my girls and I must tell you this bagseed is impressive. The bud smells like green, smells like...natural plants, nothing special, but the smoke tastes like lemon and smells like lemon. It gives a monster head inflation after just one hit. 

+rep, keep it up brother.


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## tmsculli (Dec 15, 2009)

Fuck, evidently I rep you too much, sorry it won't let me. I guess you're just too good eh? haha


P.S. took my 3 hour 15 chapter cumulative finance final yesterday. Good lord. haha. that is all I have to say about that.


One more final and it's 2 month break time


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

tmsculli said:


> Fuck, evidently I rep you too much, sorry it won't let me. I guess you're just too good eh? haha
> 
> 
> P.S. took my 3 hour 15 chapter cumulative finance final yesterday. Good lord. haha. that is all I have to say about that.
> ...


Congrats man  - always nice to be (almost) done finals and then just chill over the break.

Also, thanks for your kind words, I really appreciate it; also glad that bag seed worked out for you 

P.S. - don't sweat the reps; I don't do it for the reps, I do it for the love


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## wonderblunder (Dec 15, 2009)

Stoked for the 144 plants. I heard something about putting a high number like that under a 400w. SOunds sick....... COunt me in...... I got Super Skunk on the way as a freebie from the attitude


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## Integra21 (Dec 15, 2009)

will be interesting to see. Thanks for the pics. girls are looking nice and healthy. waiting patiently just like you to see some buds form. With your new idea, I'm sure you will have succes, but remember, it will probly be much more work to maintain. It will be a lot of work to maintain mothers capable of giving you that mass of clones, tel alone all of the time and effort cutting all of those little bastards and getting them rooted. Have you flowered 4-6" clones before. they grow a lot more than you might think. A 4"clone can easily grow to 3ft by the time the stretch is over. I know I sound like a broken record, but a respectable number of medium sized plants in a scrog still seems like it could do wonders for you. But I'm here to support and help if I can no mater which way you go. Waiting is awe to see 150 baby girls kickin in your tray. Make sure you post how that cos adventure goes, so far it sounds lilke the required tools for you will be a face shiels and some gloves. If I dont hear fro you in the next few days, I'll assume your at the er trying to get your arm reattched. JK, much love and good luck.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> will be interesting to see. Thanks for the pics. girls are looking nice and healthy. waiting patiently just like you to see some buds form. With your new idea, I'm sure you will have succes, but remember, it will probly be much more work to maintain. It will be a lot of work to maintain mothers capable of giving you that mass of clones, tel alone all of the time and effort cutting all of those little bastards and getting them rooted. Have you flowered 4-6" clones before. they grow a lot more than you might think. A 4"clone can easily grow to 3ft by the time the stretch is over. I know I sound like a broken record, but a respectable number of medium sized plants in a scrog still seems like it could do wonders for you. But I'm here to support and help if I can no mater which way you go. Waiting is awe to see 150 baby girls kickin in your tray. Make sure you post how that cos adventure goes, so far it sounds lilke the required tools for you will be a face shiels and some gloves. If I dont hear fro you in the next few days, I'll assume your at the er trying to get your arm reattched. JK, much love and good luck.


I need something that will finish at about 12-15" tall with my current height requirement, and that's about a 4" clone. FYI, there's no clone that's going from 5" to 3' unless it's Neville's Haze or some other ungodly sativa - I'll be working with indica dominant strains, and think that height will work out fine.

And as far as mothers go, that's just keeping about 20 mothers in 6" pots in my top tray, and then rooting the 160ish clones in some humidity domes in my bottom tray - won't take me more then an hour tops to cut those clones, and then there's no work - pour a cup of water in each humidity dome each day, takes about a minute.

Once they're all rooted, put them in the flowering tent for a day, maybe two tops (until they're 4"), then flower them out - should finish at right about a foot (shoot for about 7 grams per plant, although 5 would be okay).

And what do you mean by "cos adventure"? I'm assuming "cos" = "co2", and you're referring to this?



Got here about two minutes ago, and I'm thinking this might be easier then I initially thought - forgot that the CO2 only escapes out of that 4" by 7" hole (thought it just left the generator will nilly), so it shouldn't be too hard to hook a fan up to it, and I probably don't need to build a box around it (like I did when I thought the CO2 escaped from all sides).

This should be pretty easy, would like to get it done tomorrow.


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## Integra21 (Dec 15, 2009)

unfortunately, unless you have a 100% indica, i think you will still breach your height requirements. It is an unexplained phenomenon when flowering small rooted clones that they do not fit the general rule of growing 2-3x their size in flower, but generally much, much higher of a ratio when compared to the original size. I put my blue kush clones into flower some were doing better than others with a height of between 5-8", and in the pic, you can see that only one of them is 8" tall and the other 5 are more around 5-6"




Just a feww weeks into flower I had 3 foot beasts that I wasnt ready for that completely filled out my screen. This is an indica dominant Kush strain that generally doesnt grow over 3-4' tall during flower. No one has really come up with an exact explanation of why this tremendous growth occurs, but like clockwork, it hapens every time.




now in this pic, you can see the exact same clones 3 weeks later that grew to roughly 6-7x their original size in a matter of 3 weeks. When you do the 150 clones and flower them, expect 150 plants that are 2-3" tall. Which brings me bact to the scrog again. The easiest way I know if to be ablt to fit a 6ft plant into a 2 ft space.


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## Integra21 (Dec 15, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> I need something that will finish at about 12-15" tall with my current height requirement, and that's about a 4" clone. FYI, there's no clone that's going from 5" to 3' unless it's Neville's Haze or some other ungodly sativa - I'll be working with indica dominant strains, and think that height will work out fine.
> 
> And as far as mothers go, that's just keeping about 20 mothers in 6" pots in my top tray, and then rooting the 160ish clones in some humidity domes in my bottom tray - won't take me more then an hour tops to cut those clones, and then there's no work - pour a cup of water in each humidity dome each day, takes about a minute.
> 
> ...


yes, just hit s instead of 2. In the post above, keep in mind that the 16" the plants are sticking above the screen is after they run horizontally for 4-10in. thos plants started at 5" and went to just under 3ft in 3 weeks. also note that the shortest clones ended up being the tallest plants.


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 15, 2009)

bob the 144 plants sounds interesting. but im wondering how you are going to fit that many plant in a 4x4 tray. what size rockwool will you be using? and what strain??


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> unfortunately, unless you have a 100% indica, i think you will still breach your height requirements. It is an unexplained phenomenon when flowering small rooted clones that they do not fit the general rule of growing 2-3x their size in flower, but generally much, much higher of a ratio when compared to the original size. I put my blue kush clones into flower some were doing better than others with a height of between 5-8", and in the pic, you can see that only one of them is 8" tall and the other 5 are more around 5-6"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hmmmmmm...............not doubting the veracity of your pics, but that still seems funny - worst comes to worst, I can just take clones and flower them immediately, which I did with a sativa, super skunk, and indica clone this time around - took about 10" clones and they're all about 16" right now, and seem to be done stretching.

Anyways, I really appreciate your input on this, and in hindsight (like five minutes after I got done cutting my plants) probably could've maximized my yield with a SCROG this time around, but that's just not something I'm really interested in doing, truthfully.

I came into this game as a SOG man, and goddammit I'll leave as a SOG man


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> bob the 144 plants sounds interesting. but im wondering how you are going to fit that many plant in a 4x4 tray. what size rockwool will you be using? and what strain??


No rockwool kiddo, straight hydroton - will be using the same 3.5" plastic pots that I'm cloning in above.

Also, to both you and Integra, if 4-6" clones get too tall, I could simply take smaller clones, like the 1-2" inches I took in my bubble cloner, and flower them as soon as roots show - that would keep them all at about 12" tall and be perfect for me.

Of course, there are other "fixes" to my problem, such as lowering my tray, getting a new reflector (upgrading to two Magnum XXL 8" for my next tent, so could just get one early, but that would necessitate moving my filter, fans, and all kinds of other shit.

Plus, now that I'm the only kid on my block with a two level E&F veg tent, I'd like to be the only kid on my block flowering nine plants per square foot.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

For spamming my own thread, but this CO2 generator setup seems like it might be a breeze - gonna hang it from a crossbeam, and hopefully will be totally setup with it by the weekend - surely these are famous last words, but it seems like "it's gonna be easy".

Oh, also setup my ozone generator a half hour ago - too early to tell if it's working, but I've got confidence in it.


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## Integra21 (Dec 15, 2009)

no doubt bob, and if they start to over grow your space, you can just start pulling the worst looking ones out until the problem is fixed. I'm suprised nobody chimed in about the clone height thing. I thought it was fairly common knowledge, there's a few pages explaining exactly what I said and showed in Jorge Cervantes Grow Bible. Originally when I flowered my kush I was doing it for the same reasons as you, because my white widows got flowered at 14" and over grew my screen, so I fugured I'd just fix that by smaller clones and had almost identical reuults as with the WW it terms of size. I reread the grow bible, and the theory on why they do that is the plants have a predetermined minimum flower size in their genetics that they will try to reach no mater how small the clone is. and the only way to keep them under that size is by mistreatment such as over or under feeding, cold temps, or very low co2 levels or light levels.If you have a rooted clone, you might want to try one out first and see how big she gets, just so you have a good idea and might have to rething your numbers accordingly. Makes me sad about the scrog, but to each their own, it;s not like it's the first time you said you didnt really want to do it. You have been constantly geeting better since day one, so I'm sure you will figure out a way to make your dream sog work. Still sitting here enjoying the show. Make sure you get shots of that clone army as well, I have never seen so many as your shooting for, so it will be a nice change of pace, since I only cut about 8 at a time. How the co2 going, got it out of the box yet?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> no doubt bob, and if they start to over grow your space, you can just start pulling the worst looking ones out until the problem is fixed. I'm suprised nobody chimed in about the clone height thing. I thought it was fairly common knowledge, there's a few pages explaining exactly what I said and showed in Jorge Cervantes Grow Bible. Originally when I flowered my kush I was doing it for the same reasons as you, because my white widows got flowered at 14" and over grew my screen, so I fugured I'd just fix that by smaller clones and had almost identical reuults as with the WW it terms of size. I reread the grow bible, and the theory on why they do that is the plants have a predetermined minimum flower size in their genetics that they will try to reach no mater how small the clone is. and the only way to keep them under that size is by mistreatment such as over or under feeding, cold temps, or very low co2 levels or light levels.If you have a rooted clone, you might want to try one out first and see how big she gets, just so you have a good idea and might have to rething your numbers accordingly. Makes me sad about the scrog, but to each their own, it;s not like it's the first time you said you didnt really want to do it. You have been constantly geeting better since day one, so I'm sure you will figure out a way to make your dream sog work. Still sitting here enjoying the show. Make sure you get shots of that clone army as well, I have never seen so many as your shooting for, so it will be a nice change of pace, since I only cut about 8 at a time. How the co2 going, got it out of the box yet?


Outta the box, attached the propane tubing to it, and really all I need to do is mount it and attach it to a propane tank, I believe (and light the pilot).

Then it's just a matter of setting up the 4" inline and the ducting to bring the CO2 into the tent.


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## Integra21 (Dec 15, 2009)

Super Sweet. And this is not the hydrogen, right? Did you just figure out a way to rig ducting to it? I wonder how hot the air in the ducting will get to, so if it gets hot, let me know. at least if it is hot, it will probly be beneficial in these winter months. my buddys room we actually pt a heater in because the temps were lingering around 67F. Never thought I'd have to add heat to an indoor grow.


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## Integra21 (Dec 15, 2009)

I forgot to ask what temps you run in your flower room, just because when I actually get my generator, i was going to shoot for 84F to see if it made a difference over the 75F it runs at currently. I know everything says higher temps are wanted with co2, but I have been very hesitant with mine on a timer and not a controller.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 15, 2009)

No, it's not the HydroGen, although I'll probably get one of those in the summertime, methinks.

And yeah, there's actually a piece of ducting at Home Depot that I've already got in my head that will be perfect for ducting the CO2 from the generator to the tent - as far as heat goes, that's gonna be anyone's guess, but with how cheap propane is, I can have my cooling running while my CO2's running, which should help mitigate things.

FYI, I run about 80F, and have the cooling come on at 82F.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 16, 2009)

You have a solid idea. I am tinkering with the idea of c02. SOunds like good stuff....


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 16, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> No rockwool kiddo, straight hydroton - will be using the same 3.5" plastic pots that I'm cloning in above.
> 
> Also, to both you and Integra, if 4-6" clones get too tall, I could simply take smaller clones, like the 1-2" inches I took in my bubble cloner, and flower them as soon as roots show - that would keep them all at about 12" tall and be perfect for me.
> 
> ...


i would love to see that happen bob and see how they turn out.

i flowered some clones str8 after they were rooted and they all turned out to be dwarfs. they didnt grow properly and my yield suffered greatly. i always advise people to veg for atleast a little while just to get the roots going pretty well. but now that i think about it if i did 144 my yield would have been ALOT better. it might turn out well because of the amount of clones you plan on doing......


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## Bob Smith (Dec 16, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> i would love to see that happen bob and see how they turn out.
> 
> i flowered some clones str8 after they were rooted and they all turned out to be dwarfs. they didnt grow properly and my yield suffered greatly. i always advise people to veg for atleast a little while just to get the roots going pretty well. but now that i think about it if i did 144 my yield would have been ALOT better. it might turn out well because of the amount of clones you plan on doing......


Rbaha, you flower at ~8" and end up at about 18", correct? Is that about right?

And as far as the vegging aspect, I could just take mini (1/2") clones (would actually be easier to keep them uniform this way), and veg them until they were all 3-4" tall and then flower, although I might have to flower before that, even.

Regardless, if I flower too late and they get too crowded, won't be a big deal to cull some of them.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 16, 2009)

Firstly, that little ozone generator is the shit - the garage used to smell once you got inside it, now it smells like pure nothing - straight nothing, it's actually kinda unbelievable something that small could work so well (I'm not a paid endorser, FYI).

Secondly, just ordered another 100 of the 3.5" pots, should be here within a couple of days.

Thirdly, need to find somewhere that has 2x2 foot plastic trays to hold the plants (make rotating them much, much easier - just turn each tray 90 degrees each day and that's it) - I'll need these whether I decide to do 64 or 144, so if anyone knows where to them, that'd be awesome.

Finally, heading to Home Depot to grab a propane tank and that special ducting piece which I think will work perfectly with this generator - hope to have pics up later, but more likely tomorrow.


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## cazador (Dec 16, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Finally, heading to Home Depot to grab a propane tank and that special ducting piece which I think will work perfectly with this generator - hope to have pics up later, but more likely tomorrow.


 
Looking forward to seeing how you do it.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 16, 2009)

Before I head out, I ordered 12 of these:

http://www.novoselenterprises.com/products/single.asp?ID=535836

Figure I can fit eight of them in my tray with some fudge room, and they hold 18 plants a piece, so doing the math, that gets us to 144.


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 16, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Rbaha, you flower at ~8" and end up at about 18", correct? Is that about right?
> 
> And as far as the vegging aspect, I could just take mini (1/2") clones (would actually be easier to keep them uniform this way), and veg them until they were all 3-4" tall and then flower, although I might have to flower before that, even.
> 
> Regardless, if I flower too late and they get too crowded, won't be a big deal to cull some of them.


yeah thats about right bob. I think this time they should finish right about that height. maybe a little shorter.

and yeah you could take the mini clones and veg for a few days to a week. i think that would work out well.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 16, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> yeah thats about right bob. I think this time they should finish right about that height. maybe a little shorter.
> 
> and yeah you could take the mini clones and veg for a few days to a week. i think that would work out well.


So you think that flowering at 3-4" would give me the 12" finished height that I'm looking for, correct?


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 17, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> So you think that flowering at 3-4" would give me the 12" finished height that I'm looking for, correct?


depending on the strain bob. honestly though i think if you flower at that height they would finigh shorter than a foot. maybe not much shorter. but pretty close to a foot. i would say flower at 6".


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## Bob Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> depending on the strain bob. honestly though i think if you flower at that height they would finigh shorter than a foot. maybe not much shorter. but pretty close to a foot. i would say flower at 6".


Gotcha - BTW, not even sure a foot is doable at 9/sf; might have to shoot more for 9-10".

Regardless, gonna flower at ~3" (as of now) and see what that gets me.

Got everything I need to setup the CO2 generator except for a propane tank (they don't sell after 7:00pm), so I'm heading back there today to get it and get to mounting this bitch.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

Integra you're gonna love this............picked up a trellis last night while at Home Depot, and am gonna use it in my flowering tent - it's a necessity, they're just way too tall at this moment in time.

Gonna pull it down over them (brute force style, but trying not to break anything), and try to lower it a couple of inches a day until it's ~15" below the light.

Figure I can't screw up this harvest much more, so might as well.

Also, you guys are gonna laugh when you see the ducting part I picked up from Home Depot - I knew it was perfect for the generator, but it seriously almost seems like it's custom-made for the job.

Whereas some are masters of the plumbing aisle, I am a God of the ducting aisle.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 17, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Got everything I need to setup the CO2 generator except for a propane tank (they don't sell after 7:00pm), so I'm heading back there today to get it and get to mounting this bitch.


I don't know how familiar you are with buying propane tanks? When you get them brand new they must be purged of the inert gas they shipped with. This can usually only be done at the mothership propane dealer. You can try to take it to the gas station to fill it, but they will turn you away if you have a virgin tank.

Look in the yellow pages for a big propane dealer and buy there. They'll usually waive the purge charge if you're buying their tanks. Just thought I would save you a bunch of driving around if you've never dealt with new tanks. Maybe shit goes down different on the east coast but thats what Californians gotta deal with.

You could, of course, buy a couple used ones from the swap out spot and you wouldn't have to worry about purging them.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> I don't know how familiar you are with buying propane tanks? When you get them brand new they must be purged of the inert gas they shipped with. This can usually only be done at the mothership propane dealer. You can try to take it to the gas station to fill it, but they will turn you away if you have a virgin tank.
> 
> Look in the yellow pages for a big propane dealer and buy there. They'll usually waive the purge charge if you're buying their tanks. Just thought I would save you a bunch of driving around if you've never dealt with new tanks. Maybe shit goes down different on the east coast but thats what Californians gotta deal with.
> 
> You could, of course, buy a couple used ones from the swap out spot and you wouldn't have to worry about purging them.


Not an expert by any means, but do have a propane barbecue, and didn't have any issues when I bought a new tank for it last year (and since then have been getting that refilled, $15 and a one minute drive away).


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## Bob Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

So, this is what it looks like when your plants are growing up into your filter and you realize (about two weeks too late) that you need to put a screen in there to control height:



The first pic is where you can tell the difference - that plant was growing up and past the wrong side of the filter, so it's been brought down ~8 inches so far - again, gonna try and bring it down an inch or two a day for the next week, then start tying the buds down to the trellis with twist ties. I'm actually kinda pleased with it, seems like I didn't break any branches (so far).

Now here's the generator stuff (been dragging my feet on getting the ladder out to do the install):

View attachment 653570View attachment 653571View attachment 653572View attachment 653573

The first two are the piece of ducting which I knew would be perfect - it's the EXACT perfect size, fits like it was made for the job.

The next two show that even though it was only supposed to come with one burner (producing 3 cubic feet an hour of CO2), they shipped me one with four burners (which produces 13 cubic feet an hour).

Oopsies on their part.


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## Integra21 (Dec 17, 2009)

nice luck with the upgraded burner. And looks like you did a great job with the initial scrog. It's a lot easier than it seems, right? Glad you already know about the twist ties, they truely are the greatest weapon in a Scroger's arsenal. My advice to you is to get the screen down about 6-8in below where you want the top of the branches to be over the next week and let 6-8 inches of the tips stick through. That way every branch will become an 8in cola. Even though you are already weeks into flower, you will probly notice the side and smaller branches start to grow considerably in the next 2 weeks. And I have to say, for you first time doing it, that is a real even canopy. I am truly impressed. I have always enjoyed your grow, but I have a feeling I will enjoy watching it unfold even more now.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 17, 2009)

cha-ching - fatty upgrade on the burners! Too bad that'll create a bunch of heat. I would run it outside the tent and monitor the amount of heat it puts off before you duct it into your flower room. Is there a way to use only 1 burner?

Sweet find on the ducting!


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## blueybong (Dec 17, 2009)

Fuck dude, I love that fencing. Great idea for the next grow. 

And the co gen is slick.

Thanks for sharing!


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## Bob Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> nice luck with the upgraded burner. And looks like you did a great job with the initial scrog. It's a lot easier than it seems, right? Glad you already know about the twist ties, they truely are the greatest weapon in a Scroger's arsenal. My advice to you is to get the screen down about 6-8in below where you want the top of the branches to be over the next week and let 6-8 inches of the tips stick through. That way every branch will become an 8in cola. Even though you are already weeks into flower, you will probly notice the side and smaller branches start to grow considerably in the next 2 weeks. And I have to say, for you first time doing it, that is a real even canopy. I am truly impressed. I have always enjoyed your grow, but I have a feeling I will enjoy watching it unfold even more now.


Yeah, gonna have to pull it down slowly but surely over the next week - also going to have to move some plants around to better space them out - the biggest ones all seem to be on the left wall (when facing the tent), so they need to be spaced a bit better.

Also not sure if I'm going to be able to get the screen low enough for the plants in the middle to be able to reach it - the massive empty spot right in the middle? Those are the "late" clones that I took (about six days before flipping to 12/12, which means that in all likelihood they didn't even have roots down when flowering commenced.

Oh well, time will tell, but I can say with some certainty that SCROG certainly seems to be the best method to salvage what I can from this go-round.

Also should mention, noticed today that the buds have started packing on some weight - there was noticeably more then yesterday - a function of time and also the trimming of the lower budsites, methinks.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

So I popped five of each of the new strains - AK-48, Master Kush, and Ice.

Threw them in a glass of water at 11:21 EST tonight, so they should be ready to transplant first thing Saturday morning.

Said "fuck it", no sense in doing one at a time.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 17, 2009)

like your thinking there bob


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## Bob Smith (Dec 17, 2009)

It's amazing how Jack Daniels clears my head up....................


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 17, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> It's amazing how Jack Daniels clears my head up....................


lol... rum clears mine...


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## Hulk Nugs (Dec 18, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> It's amazing how Jack Daniels clears my head up....................


 
Second that!!

Setup looks great, put allot of time and work into getting it how you want, always makes you feel great to stand back and say i did that!!! 

I will be watching keep the updates coming.


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## laserbrn (Dec 18, 2009)

Hulk Nugs said:


> Second that!!
> 
> Setup looks great, put allot of time and work into getting it how you want, always makes you feel great to stand back and say i did that!!!
> 
> I will be watching keep the updates coming.


Sorry it took me so long to drop this journal. I know we've been in a lot of the same discussions and I've seen your shit alot. I'm going to read this entire thing (68 pages, fuck) and get all caught up. I clicked on it a few times and saw how long it was and didn't have the time. When I get home tonight I'll go through the whole thing and check it out, it's like getting to watch in fast forward, that's nice.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 18, 2009)

laserbrn said:


> Sorry it took me so long to drop this journal. I know we've been in a lot of the same discussions and I've seen your shit alot. I'm going to read this entire thing (68 pages, fuck) and get all caught up. I clicked on it a few times and saw how long it was and didn't have the time. When I get home tonight I'll go through the whole thing and check it out, it's like getting to watch in fast forward, that's nice.


Very nice to have you, my friend 

And yes, the journal is pretty lengthy (lots of mistakes along the way) - a decent way to mitigate that is to do what I've done, which is to set your viewing at 40 posts per page - makes things go a lot, lot faster.

It's under My Rollitup, Edit Options, and then it's about 3/4 of the way down the page.

I'd highly recommend that to everyone - it's made my life much, much easier in all threads that I read.

Also, got the 100 additional 3.5" pots and their holders delivered today, as well as a tank of propane for my generator.

Mounted the 4" inline on the ceiling of my garage, but then this hangover headache was too much to deal with, so I quit for the day - shooting to be setup by tomorrow and at least running tests of the system.

Finally, my girl got her official offer today, so we're thinking about smoking tonight for the first time in almost a month - I'm actually nervous, believe it or not - it's been so long, will probably just take a hit and see how that goes for an hour before really starting to puff down (just got back from dinner/drinking, and weed and an alcohol buzz don't mix too well for me, usually).

Well, that's about all I can think of right now - I know I'm forgetting something, will post it when I remember it.

P.S. - don't play large online poker games drunk - lost $2K last night like a donkey.

EDIT: remembered what I forgot - the thermostat controller (for my fan cooling my 1000HPS in my flowering tent) got delivered today - sometimes it gets too cold in there, and I need a way to turn the light cooling fan off so that I don't need to have the heater in there come on and waste boku electricity.

Pics:



Also just checked on the beans, not one has popped thus far - would've expected at least a few to be out by now (21 hours), but I'm not gonna start getting worried/annoyed until tomorrow morning.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 19, 2009)

Everytime I hear about this online Poker I feel like asking you about it. 2k loss? Im better off not knowing! I am a gambler as well though


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## Bob Smith (Dec 19, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> Everytime I hear about this online Poker I feel like asking you about it. 2k loss? Im better off not knowing! I am a gambler as well though


FullTiltPoker.com* - would tell you my screen name, but that's too much of a security risk, unfortunately 

Anyways, we're snowed in here, so I'm gonna try to get some work done and finish up with the CO2 installation.

The beans are popping at various rates (we're at 36 hours, thus far) - all five Ice have popped (1/4" roots coming out), 2 of the AK have popped, and 0 of the Master Kush have popped - weakness.

Need to install that fan thermostat ASAP, just went out there and the heater is running.

* Bob Smith assumes no liability for any losses, real or imagined, that occur from becoming addicted to online poker. Proceed at your own risk,


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## Bob Smith (Dec 19, 2009)

Installed the temp controller on my air-cooled fan - for $35, will probably save me that much in electricity in a month from the heater not having to run concurrently with my 1K on cold days:



Set the fan to come on at 75, so that's all gravy.

Also took some fresh pics of the flowering ladies, here they are:



And finally, here's a few pics of the Ice seeds (transplanting into Rapid Rooters today):



Gonna mount this generator today if I get the time, we'll see.


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## blueybong (Dec 19, 2009)

They've really filled in nicely!


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## Bob Smith (Dec 19, 2009)

Mounted the generator an attached some ducting; still need to run ducting from the fan to the tent, but that shouldn't take but five minutes.

Also put a heating mat underneath the clones - figure the clones are fine without it, but I'd like the seedlings to have it on there - about 70 in the tent, figure they'd like high 70s better.

Gonna transplant the Ice seeds in a coupla hours.

View attachment 655849View attachment 655850View attachment 655852View attachment 655855View attachment 655856View attachment 655857View attachment 655858


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## smokingrubber (Dec 19, 2009)

This should be very interesting. Have you run it for any period of time to make sure you're not about to broil them? Is the blower on a speed controller? Watch your temps closely when you fire that thing up. 

We should set up a pool on how this goes  Sorry Bob.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 19, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> This should be very interesting. Have you run it for any period of time to make sure you're not about to broil them? Is the blower on a speed controller? Watch your temps closely when you fire that thing up.
> 
> We should set up a pool on how this goes  Sorry Bob.


No, haven't even attached the propane tank yet and lit the pilot - figure tomorrow, if everything goes as planned.

No speed controller on the blower, but I'm going to point the hot air to blow onto my oscillating fan in there, which will (in theory) disperse that and the CO2, I hope - also, will only be running for 5-10 minutes every hour (for a minute or two at a time, I'm thinking), so nothing too horrendous would happen, methinks.

My exhaust fans also kick on at 80F, and they'd be able to exhaust the tent much more quickly then the 4" could get it hot enough to roast it.

Anyways, I've been thinking about that issue over the past couple of days, and will order one of these, if need be (almost certainly will be in the summertime).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270413680891&rvr_id=&crlp=1_263602_263622&UA=WXF%3F&GUID=9f4894461250a0b583813bd1ff95de11&itemid=270413680891&ff4=263602_263622

Already have a 50 gallon reservoir (catching my RO waste water), so all I'd need would be a large pump, which is $50.

Worst case scenario, I think that would remove a majority (or at least enough to make it workable) of the heat.

EDIT: That was a long-winded way of saying "I like my chances"


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## Integra21 (Dec 19, 2009)

We will have to see how it goes. If it fails and is too hot, you already have everything sitting there to do the hydrogen outside of the tent.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 19, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> We will have to see how it goes. If it fails and is too hot, you already have everything sitting there to do the hydrogen outside of the tent.


Agreed, and will probably get the Hydrogen for the summer anyways, but I'm real, real confident I'm gonna pull this off.

Might need the heat exchanger, but I'll get it going.


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## Integra21 (Dec 19, 2009)

you may be fine without it. I think you would have for sure with the one you ordered, have know idea about the big bad one you actually got. who ever thought a free upgrade might be a problem. But with that said, im fairly confident it will go well to, since there will be a lot of cool fresh air being pulled into the generator by the fan mixing and cooling as it goes which will also keep the burner itself cooler, just like air cooling, so my hopes are high as well. especially for the time it will be running, might only raise the temps a few deg. My buddy has a big one just like that in a bigger, not so well sealed room, and it only kicks on for a min. at a time. and as already stated, you have a backup plan, actually a couple of backup plans, so no worries.


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 19, 2009)

hey bob you switched to flower on the 1st right?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 19, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> hey bob you switched to flower on the 1st right?


Yuppers, December 1st was the first day of 12/12 - you too, right?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 19, 2009)

Integra21 said:


> you may be fine without it. I think you would have for sure with the one you ordered, have know idea about the big bad one you actually got. who ever thought a free upgrade might be a problem. But with that said, im fairly confident it will go well to, since there will be a lot of cool fresh air being pulled into the generator by the fan mixing and cooling as it goes which will also keep the burner itself cooler, just like air cooling, so my hopes are high as well. especially for the time it will be running, might only raise the temps a few deg. My buddy has a big one just like that in a bigger, not so well sealed room, and it only kicks on for a min. at a time. and as already stated, you have a backup plan, actually a couple of backup plans, so no worries.


Yeah, might look at taking a burner or two out if that seems to make sense - just need to test it out.

Pretty sure it's pretty easy to both install and remove burners from this thing (and, if I ever get the "urge", there's a $25 kit which lets me switch it over to natural gas with only a screwdriver and ten minutes) - that's if I ever decide to tap into the stove's line on the other side of the wall.


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 20, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Yuppers, December 1st was the first day of 12/12 - you too, right?


yeah. i was asking because i looked at your pictures and your buds seemed a little small... maybe it was because of the photo. mine are all swelling up quickly. also might be strain related. also might be because your ladies are bigger... who knows?

btw. if your wanted some PK i would send you a clone so u can start a mother....


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## Bob Smith (Dec 20, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> yeah. i was asking because i looked at your pictures and your buds seemed a little small... maybe it was because of the photo. mine are all swelling up quickly. also might be strain related. also might be because your ladies are bigger... who knows?
> 
> btw. if your wanted some PK i would send you a clone so u can start a mother....


Wish it was all because of the photo 

In their defense, the photo doesn't really do them justice - they actually are packing on weight pretty decent (flowered way, way, way, way too tall this go round, so will be happy to get a 1/2 lb. off this harvest - necessitated me using a net to keep height down, unfortunately).

Also, these flower times are s'posed to be 9-11 weeks, so if you're rocking out a solid 7 week strain, that'll do it, too.

And I appreciate the offer vis a vis the PK - I'll PM you and we'll see what we can figure out.


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 20, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Wish it was all because of the photo
> 
> In their defense, the photo doesn't really do them justice - they actually are packing on weight pretty decent (flowered way, way, way, way too tall this go round, so will be happy to get a 1/2 lb. off this harvest - necessitated me using a net to keep height down, unfortunately).
> 
> ...


 
it probably was because of the photo. i think you'll get more than a 1/2lb. im almost sure you will. especially with the use of co2. my strain is a 8-10 week strain. i think im going to go 8 weeks. but im not 100% sure yet. when 7 weeks hit and they are all swollen my fingers start itching to grab the scissors and begin cutting. im going to try my hardest to go 8 weeks though. im going to take some pictures of my ladies tomorrow so you can see how they are coming along.


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## greenlanter (Dec 20, 2009)

well i ask before and dont knw if you got the q or not ... nypd is in my posesion and i have room for 4 more pots in my closet but have no input on this darn strain, you are the onlyone i have found who is growing it and i have some q ... on nutes intake and grow ratios , also if is a good cloner and if it any diff phenotypes has shown to you???


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## Bob Smith (Dec 20, 2009)

rbahadosingh said:


> it probably was because of the photo. i think you'll get more than a 1/2lb. im almost sure you will. especially with the use of co2. my strain is a 8-10 week strain. i think im going to go 8 weeks. but im not 100% sure yet. when 7 weeks hit and they are all swollen my fingers start itching to grab the scissors and begin cutting. im going to try my hardest to go 8 weeks though. im going to take some pictures of my ladies tomorrow so you can see how they are coming along.


Yeah, probably gonna run my CO2 a little higher with the generator, shoot to average more like 1750 or 1800.

Ran some more numbers, and I'm pretty fugging confident this is gonna work splendidly (at least during the winter, when the ambient garage temps are in the low 50s).

My yield is gonna suck because I've basically taken a 4x4 footprint and turned it into a 2.5x2.5 effective flowering area.

Oh well, first grow in a decade, not gonna cry about it.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 20, 2009)

greenlanter said:


> well i ask before and dont knw if you got the q or not ... nypd is in my posesion and i have room for 4 more pots in my closet but have no input on this darn strain, you are the onlyone i have found who is growing it and i have some q ... on nutes intake and grow ratios , also if is a good cloner and if it any diff phenotypes has shown to you???


Yeah, got your question before, and answered it - seems to clone fine, takes nutes just as well as my other plants, etc. - haven't noticed different phenos yet, but the buds aren't really starting to stink, which is when the lemony/citrus pheno will make itself known, I believe.

Maybe some more specific questions would help me help you better?

As an aside, all of the other ten beans (Master Kush and AK-4 have popped, and I transplanted them all into rapid rooters in my humidity dome - always nice to have some babies around.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 20, 2009)

So I'm a little bored and have been doing some planning for the expansion - can't decide whether to do two 4x4 trays under a 1K each, or to do four 600s covering 3x3 trays.

If the 3x3 trays, can't figure out whether to do a long rectangle design (3x12) or a square (6x6).

Wondering this because at 7', these tents don't really have enough head room for me, so I'm thinking I'm going to have to build a DIY tent setup - opens up a lot more possibilities that way (could build a stand like I did for my veg tent, worst comes to worst.).

Anyhow, right now I'm leaning towards building an 8x8 tent and putting four 600s over 3x3 trays in there.

Uses more light, and spreads it better from four light sources as opposed to two light sources - have never used a 600, and I'm hesitant to downgrade from a more powerful light to less powerful lights, but I think that makes the most sense to me at this point in time.

I'm just kinda in love with the thought of light hitting plants from four different directions, in all honesty.

I'm gonna start a new thread in the design and setup forum when the time comes, but if anyone would like to throw their $.02 during the brainstorming part of the program, would love to hear it.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 20, 2009)

PK...... this has been a hot topic in my world lately


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## rbahadosingh (Dec 21, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> PK...... this has been a hot topic in my world lately


 has it now?


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## smokingrubber (Dec 21, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> So I'm a little bored and have been doing some planning for the expansion - can't decide whether to do two 4x4 trays under a 1K each, or to do four 600s covering 3x3 trays.
> 
> If the 3x3 trays, can't figure out whether to do a long rectangle design (3x12) or a square (6x6).
> 
> ...


You asked for .02 so I might as well. I've been thinking about this myself. Since you have money to burn, here goes.

You're aware of the barrel/controller/bucket setup I have (Ebb & Grow by CAP). Imagine that setup with Flood Tables instead of buckets! The 55 gallon res would fill a 3x3 no problem.

Build a grid platform on the ground with 2x4s. Put the 3x3 tray on top and put the controller bucket on the ground next to it. Slightly raising the controller would allow you to control the height of the flood. You could easily run 3 or 4 controller buckets off one barrel at staggered times. You could flood a large area and only have to worry about dealing with the 55 gal barrel.

This would allow you to have the flood tables 4" off the ground. You would have the FULL height of the tent available. Plus, you would be able to walk around in there.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 21, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> You asked for .02 so I might as well. I've been thinking about this myself. Since you have money to burn, here goes.
> 
> You're aware of the barrel/controller/bucket setup I have (Ebb & Grow by CAP). Imagine that setup with Flood Tables instead of buckets! The 55 gallon res would fill a 3x3 no problem.
> 
> ...


I like your thinking - going to do some more research, but it's certainly a possibility.

Right now I'm leaning towards just building shorter tables, and putting a "real" reservoir under them, something that runs more like 12" high - that would save me almost a foot, and then with the better reflectors, the 600s being able to be ~12" away, and then the extra 1' that I'll get by building it myself, I think I'll be straight.

Will have a large update tomorrow when this CO2 system is (hopefully) up and running - ducting and everything else is finished, just need an extension cord and to light the pilot and run some tests on it.

Four of the seedlings have broken the Rapid Rooter surface (2 Ice, 1 of each of the others), and the flowering plants are all looking as good as can be expected.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 21, 2009)

2x4s - $30
Panda Film - $150
Rent staple and nail guns - $60
4 3x3 trays - $400
4 3x3 tray inserts - $560 (this thing, so I can use 5.5" netpots - almost be a DWC/E&F hybrid, allowing the roots to grow monstrously - http://www.amhydro.com/index.php/Do-It-Yourself-Components/199-3-x-3-Net-Well-Insert/flypage.tpl.html)
4 electronic ballasts - $700
4 Magnum XXXL Reflectors - $850
Another 6" inline (going to have one 6" cooling two hoods, so two 6" in total) - $80
8" inline (for exhaust) - $110
3 more 400 GPH pumps - $100
2 55 gallon reservoirs (two tables to one res) - $250
Miscellaneous - $300

Gets us to ~$3600 for the whole kit and kaboodle.

Yikes.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 21, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> 2x4s - $30
> Panda Film - $150
> Rent staple and nail guns - $60
> 4 3x3 trays - $400
> ...


Greatness has a price . . . and it's less than 4k  Dont forget fans and more fans. I can't wait to see this one. 

Plus timers for the lights +50x4 - continuous nute monitor +200x2 - new carbon filter for 8" fan +280 - 6" intake fan and hepa filter +250 - Dont forget BULBS for all those lights +100x4 - ...


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## Bob Smith (Dec 21, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Greatness has a price . . . and it's less than 4k  Dont forget fans and more fans. I can't wait to see this one.
> 
> Plus timers for the lights +50x4 - continuous nute monitor +200x2 - new carbon filter for 8" fan +280 - 6" intake fan and hepa filter +250 - Dont forget BULBS for all those lights +100x4 - ...



Lol...........getting kinda expensive, eh?

Although if I knew six months ago what I know now, I could've have all that up and running and saved myself a few grand as compared to what I've already spent on a measly 4x4 tent.

That being said, can get the nute monitors for $120 off of Ebay (was one click away from getting one about a week ago), and as far as the intake, was thinking I could get away with the spare 4" that I have - pretty sure that would do the job.

You do have a point on the filter, though - however, for as little as the intake and exhaust would be running, also kinda figured I could use the filter I already have (rated for 550 CFM, so a bend or two in the ducting should get the fan to about that CFM).

And timers for the lights would be $10 a piece (one $20 timer per light).

And the bulbs, that's a good point (but can get them for $50/piece).

Gonna do at least one (likely two, if not three) more harvests after this one in my 4x4, so ETA for "MegaTent" is sometime in late summer/early fall (fall would work better to be able to handle the temps, so that's a better guess).

Want to wait until it's all setup and running before I put anything in there, but now I'm wondering if I could simply build the tent and fill it up (the "guts") as I go.............don't wanna spend 10K+ on this "hobby" before I've made a penny back, but also am super stoked to get this fucker up and off the ground, and don't want any "down time" for a couple of weeks as I test the tent out and have nothing flowering (can't fit the 4x4 in there with the "MT" frame).

This current harvest will suck (.5 lbs, if that), but then hopefully the next one will be in the 1.25-1.5 range, which almost gets me to even, and then the one after that would be icing on the cake, and pay for "MegaTent".

That's the plan for right now, but we'll see how things go.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 22, 2009)

My wife definitely disgusted at times with my justifaction process for spending on the "hobby". According to her I have spent at least 6 grand. Me, I think about 3k. Im upgrading myself here too. Between 6-8k of hps


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## smokingrubber (Dec 22, 2009)

Yeah I'm sure you can find deals on a lot of the stuff. The point is . . . exactly what you said . . . this hobby can siphon your funds and its never as simple as JUST 4k by the time it comes to flip the switch! A wise man would realize a harvest or two before wading even deeper into the pool.

... I keep staring at that last statement I wrote. I am maybe not as wise as I had hoped. We'll see.

You're on the right track. Plan it out, chew on it, and when the time comes to pull the trigger you'll know exactly what your strategy and budget looks like. That's what I've been doing and it's certainly evolved (for the better) with time to think things through.



Bulbs for 50?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 22, 2009)

Sorry guys, this is gonna be a duplicate post to something I just posted in a thread dedicated to that project, but I'm really pleased with myself, so deal with it 

This is in regards to the generator, FYI.

Don't wanna jinx myself, and there's certainly significant left tail risk involved (like burning down the house), but so far this works better then I could've hoped.

Took me forever to get the pilot lit, and I was just about to quit before I finally got it, but I'm loving this right now.

Stats:

Firstly, turned my Sentinel from Fuzzy Logic (for compressed CO2) to Generator, and also raised the deadband from 25 to 200 (the max deadband). Setepoint is still at 1500.

So, let the temp get down to 72 and the CO2 get down to 400, then I fired the system up - 

Took 1.5 minutes - temp went up to 77, CO2 went to ~1800, and humidity went a few % points.

Stayed in to watch it in "maintain" mode, and it runs for about 30-45 seconds every five minutes, raising the temp about 1-1.5 degrees each time, and lowering the humidity a coupla points, while hitting ~1825 in PPMs.

Again, not trying to put the "mush" on myself, but so far this is working beautifully.

Need to figure out a failsafe in case the ducting should come down while I'm not there, which would lead the burner to stay on continuously, and need to brainstorm about some other things that could go wrong, but I'm feeling pretty good about it right now.

Thanks to all for their help.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 22, 2009)

wonderblunder said:


> My wife definitely disgusted at times with my justifaction process for spending on the "hobby". According to her I have spent at least 6 grand. Me, I think about 3k. Im upgrading myself here too. Between 6-8k of hps


6-8K of HPS? You run a power company?

Sheeeeeeeet.................that's a lot of light right there..............


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## Bob Smith (Dec 22, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Yeah I'm sure you can find deals on a lot of the stuff. The point is . . . exactly what you said . . . this hobby can siphon your funds and its never as simple as JUST 4k by the time it comes to flip the switch! A wise man would realize a harvest or two before wading even deeper into the pool.
> 
> ... I keep staring at that last statement I wrote. I am maybe not as wise as I had hoped. We'll see.
> 
> ...


Funny, was shopping today and saw your post in your thread about upgrading by next week come across my Blackberry, and I was gonna say the same to you 

Need to see some sort of return on my investment before I go dropping stacks and stacks on this hobby; hell, could move somewhere in a few months and then I've just got $10K of growing shit with nowhere to put, you know?

Thinking I need to go more one step at a time, but we'll see 

And yuppers, check 'em out..........

http://www.businesslights.com/hps-lamps-c-27.html

That's where I got my inline fans from - they work great and they're cheap (half the price of comparable Vortex, etc.).


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## smokingrubber (Dec 22, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Need to figure out a failsafe in case the ducting should come down while I'm not there, which would lead the burner to stay on continuously, and need to brainstorm about some other things that could go wrong, but I'm feeling pretty good about it right now.
> 
> Thanks to all for their help.


Don't they make some kind of high-temp cutoff sensor? Put that in the garage and if the temp gets too high it won't allow the Co2 gen to kick on? Something between the Sentinal and the gen.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 23, 2009)

So, things are rolling along.............still expecting a shitty yield from this harvest, still unsure as to what makes the most sense to do to try and salvage it, still focusing mainly on my next run and getting these clones ready.

That being said, gonna take about 10-15 clones off of the super skunk mom today (root them in E&F, which I'm much more comfortable in then rapid rooters).

Need to have ~25 fairly large, viable mothers within about five weeks (have 36 4" clones doing well in E&F right now, so I think I'll get there) - doing this grow with one strain is simply out of the question at this point, gonna need all the healthy clones I can get - shooting to take 216, and choosing the best 144 (clone selection is so, so, so important when doing a SOG, so more selection is better).

Anyways, just decided as I typed that to try and fix the flowering tent as best I can - gonna take the net off today, rearrange the plants to try and maximize what yield I can, and then put it back on, using twist ties and all 

Anyways, here's some pics:



P.S. - made a video of my new setup, here's the link for anyone interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRXXJyuok90


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## smokingrubber (Dec 23, 2009)

Great video. Nice to hear the engine room running at warp 2


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## Bob Smith (Dec 23, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> Great video. Nice to hear the engine room running at warp 2


Lol..............thanks man


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## smokingrubber (Dec 23, 2009)

With that accent, its getting harder to pull off the California 215 tag. Shoulda thrown in a few "knarly"s for effect lol.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 23, 2009)

smokingrubber said:


> With that accent, its getting harder to pull off the California 215 tag. Shoulda thrown in a few "knarly"s for effect lol.


I'm looking out my window at the Golden Gate Bridge as we speak 



Anyhow, took the screen down in the flower tent with the thought of shuffling the plants around and putting it back, and now have just decided to leave it off.

Putting it on was just creating a mass of foliage and buds, which inhibited all growth and would surely have led to problems down the road.

Have decided to just do my best to rotate the plants every couple/few days, and see how that does for me - I guess I'm gonna put the bamboo stakes back in them now 

Also took thirteen clones off of my super skunk mom - 11 are directly in hydroton in the E&F tray, and 2 are in rapid rooters surrounded by hydroton in the tray - wanna test this out anyways, and those two clones were too short to root in just hydroton.


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## smokingrubber (Dec 23, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> I'm looking out my window at the Golden Gate Bridge as we speak


Me too  ... knarly!


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## statik (Dec 23, 2009)

Damnit, lets just make fun of people from Cali now... We don't ALL say knarley. You forgot "Hella." Or better yet, "Hella knarley." 

Anyway, when did you put the screen in there Bob? I have been thinking about going Scrog in my room as you know. The only problem I can see is if I have to move plants for some unforeseen reason later on. Sorry to temp jack your thread, but I dropped my plants to the floor like Gnome and I were talking about. Thinking about putting them on some 6 inch tall (upside down) hydro buckets so I can run a drip to waste (waste being on the floor) and just mop up what falls through. RH will go up like mad of course, but thats what dehumidifiers are for right? I would only lose that 6 - 7 inches by doing so..unlike the 18 or so I was taking up with the tubs.

Ok enough hijacking. So what exactly is it you think you did wrong this round Bob? You keep saying the harvest is going to be crap. Mind explaining, not just for me...but for the others who may not want to read back over 70 pages? 

I know you plan on shoving more clones in this next run, and throwing the switch sooner (at least I think thats what you had said before). Didn't we discuss topping as well?


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## Bob Smith (Dec 23, 2009)

statik said:


> Damnit, lets just make fun of people from Cali now... We don't ALL say knarley. You forgot "Hella." Or better yet, "Hella knarley."
> 
> Anyway, when did you put the screen in there Bob? I have been thinking about going Scrog in my room as you know. The only problem I can see is if I have to move plants for some unforeseen reason later on. Sorry to temp jack your thread, but I dropped my plants to the floor like Gnome and I were talking about. Thinking about putting them on some 6 inch tall (upside down) hydro buckets so I can run a drip to waste (waste being on the floor) and just mop up what falls through. RH will go up like mad of course, but thats what dehumidifiers are for right? I would only lose that 6 - 7 inches by doing so..unlike the 18 or so I was taking up with the tubs.
> 
> ...


Hehe...............I'm hella buzzed right now, swilling this JD like it's water.

And as far as what I did wrong, it's very easy to sum up into one word - time.

I waited to long to flip the switch (like a douche), and my plants are too tall - only had 24" of usable space (giving a 12" cushion from the light to the top of the plants), so flipping at 12" for the clones and ~16" for the seedlings (even though all had been topped to control height) was semi-disastrous.

Other then that, I think my grow (the flowering aspect, at least) has gone along flawlessly 

"And how was the rest of the play, Mrs. Lincoln?"

Like how I've got the atmosphere as in check as is really possible, Lucas Formula has been working very, very well for me (haven't changed the reservoir since the first week of November, with no ill effects), and I'm pleased at how my learning ("remembering") curve has progressed for the last month or two.

And yeah, for the next grow, I'm planning on 144 clones (or as many healthy and vigorous clones as I can get), and I'm going to flower at 2-3", with the expectation that I might have to cull 1/4 to 1/2 of them before harvest.

It's gonna kinda be an experiment in hubris, and you're all gonna be invited


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## Bob Smith (Dec 23, 2009)

- go figure, so I just ordered a Magnum XXXL reflector for my flowering tent...............figure that should help with my coverage, and help my salvage something outta this harvest.

http://www.growlightexpress.com/grow-light-reflectors-4/magnum-xxxl-6-air-cooled-reflector-157.html

Also thinking I'll be using four of them for my next grow show, so it lets me "test out the merchandise" before making the commitment to buy three more.

That is all.

Holler.

EDIT: so looking at the dimensions online (prolly should've done that before purchasing, but that's not my style), gonna have to make some room in the tent - that means the filter and 6" inline for exhaust will have to come out of the tent and be mounted outside of it - Bob the Builder will be making a special holiday appearance to bring his Xmas cheer.

DOUBLE EDIT: so after having it explained to me that the 8" flange was way bigger (thought the only difference was the flange size, not the actual reflector size), I've emailed the seller to see if I can purchase the 8" instead - not too worried about it either way, but the 8" would be the shit.

The 8" is 38x30, and the 6" is 32x26.

TRIPLE EDIT: realized that the 8" wouldn't fit into my current tent (no 8" flanges on the tent, and there wouldn't be enough room to run the ducting, etc.), I'm sticking with the 6".

Also makes more sense because if I go to 4 3x3 tables, I don't need a reflector (the 8") which is longer then my tables (38" compared to 36").

Integra - was up early this morning and tried to get you some lights off pics, but dragged my feet and got out there as soon as the light came on


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## budman52 (Dec 24, 2009)

Bob Smith said:


> Well, checked on the ladies and detected a faint odor of algae (man do I hate that fugging smell).
> 
> Anyhow, emptied all the tanks out, scrubbed them down, and then refilled with nutes and 300mLs of H2O2 each; also added an additional couple of airstones per tub.
> 
> ...


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## Lovin'JK (Dec 25, 2009)

Im still following. Its so funny. I have virtually the same setup as you, and have been going through the exact same setup and design decisions as well. I even have the dual level veg setup EXACTLY the same. Im also a young guy myself so following along your Journal is almost like looking in the mirror. I was originally at 16 Skunk Special plants that were 4 weeks in and were FAT. I ended up tossing them out for peace of mind so I never got to recoup the initial investment like you as well. Ended up starting again on the same timeline as yourself. Finally finished w/ MedicalSeeds 1024 and I started flower on Dec 1st as well. My tallest girl is 30" tall now and she is just packin on the weight even for a heavy sativa she grows fast and the buds smell FRUITY. Germing GHS Indica Mix H now as well, and am loving your journal. Thanks for your reply to my PM.


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## Bob Smith (Dec 28, 2009)

Lovin'JK said:


> Im still following. Its so funny. I have virtually the same setup as you, and have been going through the exact same setup and design decisions as well. I even have the dual level veg setup EXACTLY the same. Im also a young guy myself so following along your Journal is almost like looking in the mirror. I was originally at 16 Skunk Special plants that were 4 weeks in and were FAT. I ended up tossing them out for peace of mind so I never got to recoup the initial investment like you as well. Ended up starting again on the same timeline as yourself. Finally finished w/ MedicalSeeds 1024 and I started flower on Dec 1st as well. My tallest girl is 30" tall now and she is just packin on the weight even for a heavy sativa she grows fast and the buds smell FRUITY. Germing GHS Indica Mix H now as well, and am loving your journal. Thanks for your reply to my PM.


Thanks man, very nice to have you along.

As far as things go, they're "meh" - just been really busy with the holidays and whatnot, but the plants are all decent.

Flowering tent is getting stinky and putting on some weight, the seedlings are all doing well, the clones in the rapid rooters are fully rooted, and the clones in E&F are coming along.

Gonna transplant the seedlings and rapid rooter clones today, and will take some pics that I'll probably post tomorrow (also try to get some lights off flowering pics).

Other then that, not much to report.

Hope everyone is enjoying their holidays.


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## wonderblunder (Dec 30, 2009)

Looking forward to the pics. I am about to do a transplant.


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## skinnyone (Dec 30, 2009)

Hey Bob how is the grow coming along? I am very interested in your NYCPD I just got some ordered from Nirvana. Havent seen to many people on RIU comment on it.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 2, 2010)

Not important with what, but everything's coming along "meh" - still have serious height issues with the flowering ladies, and the CO2 system didn't work out like it was s'posed to (already through a tank of propane, so back on compressed gas for the moment).

Have an army of 72 clones and seedlings on the top of my veg tent, ready to be cloned in a couple of weeks (still shooting for ~200 clones).

Flowering girls are all good (save for some slight nute burn from me being lazy about topping off with water, and the ones trapped directly under the light being light bleached and possibly heat stressed) - got my new reflector a couple of hours ago, so gonna install that sometime in the next couple of days - it's unbelievably massive, so the filter and exhaust fan will have to come out of the tent - might also do a whole overall and get the table shortened and the dehumidifier out of there to make some headroom, but we'll see about that (will decide in the next day or two).

Other then that, not a lotta to report - here's the pics.....

Okay, so it's not letting me post pics - I'll try later, I guess.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 2, 2010)

skinnyone said:


> Hey Bob how is the grow coming along? I am very interested in your NYCPD I just got some ordered from Nirvana. Havent seen to many people on RIU comment on it.


My NYPD #2 is my favorite plant right now (for smell and weight) - anything specific you were interested in?


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## skinnyone (Jan 2, 2010)

I have not grown the NYPD and was wondering how she likes nutes what she will look like...does she like being topped or super cropped anything that will help when i get my beans germinated. I havent received them yet but expecting them any day now.


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## wonderblunder (Jan 3, 2010)

Nice video. Love the dual level veg setup. I kind of have something similar as well. Looking good......


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## Bob Smith (Jan 5, 2010)

skinnyone said:


> I have not grown the NYPD and was wondering how she likes nutes what she will look like...does she like being topped or super cropped anything that will help when i get my beans germinated. I havent received them yet but expecting them any day now.


My NYPD #2 is branchy and my tallest plant - all my plants were topped (for height reasons, and clearly not enough).

As far as nutes, I just run Lucas formula (with Floranova Bloom), and as long as I top off with water enough to keep the PPMs <1500, the plants love it.

Also, have a new favorite plant - my Bubblelicious #1 is smelling like straight bubblegum and has some thick, resiny nugs - thinking I might run that instead of super skunk for my next run, or maybe a 1/2 and 1/2 of each flavor.

Also (somewhat) leaning towards 64 instead of 144 for my next run, but if it started today, would probably still do 144.

Also found the perfect tent for my plan of 4 3x3 tables covered by 600s - the DR240, which measures 8x8 - just need to talk to my "guy" and see if he could move 1lb+ every couple of weeks.

Was gonna get a "real" reservoir and stand for my 4x4 for the last month of his run and my next run, then measured and realized I'd only be saving myself about 6", so decided it wasn't worth it (won't need it for my next run, anyways, so it'd only be "necessary" for the next month).

Um, I'm sure I'm forgetting stuff, but that's a decent summary for now..........

Was gonna post pics and I still can't - does anyone know WTF is going on? I click the paperclip like I used to (to attach pics) and nothing happens.

Weak.


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## Lo'pan (Jan 5, 2010)

Hey Bob. Great vids. love that generator set up. I wonder if you could cap off a couple of the heads on that thing to cut back on propane consumption. Those plants look fucking awesome! Great setup! 

Uuuhhhhhh....yah-di-yada..... LOL


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## Bob Smith (Jan 5, 2010)

Went out and made another short film to show what's going on, but before I posted that I decided to try Explorer and see if I could post pics that way - well, I can.

These are from a few days ago, but are fairly current - apologies for the light bleaching on the plants directly under the light, but unfortunately that's out of my control 



Unless you have one, you can't comprehend the size of this reflector - the fucker is three feet long and over two feet wide. Would fit a 3x3 tray like a boss.



 

Veg tent shots - except for a couple of stragglers, all 60ish clones are showing solid new growth, and the seedlings are doing okay.




A couple more veg tent shots - the second one is a demo/example of what I'd expect the plant(s) to look like before I flipped them, if I go with 144 - FYI, they're about 3" tall.








Lights out - you can see some crispy leaves from the light bleaching. Oh well.





Lights just coming on.

Comments, questions, and criticisms are always welcome.


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## wonderblunder (Jan 5, 2010)

Looking damn good. I love those magnum XXXL. I know a few who swear by them and go as far to say "you are wasting time without them" But whatever. In the back of my mind I am hoping to never buy another reflector again. Everything looks great Bob. Keep it up.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 5, 2010)

wonderblunder said:


> Looking damn good. I love those magnum XXXL. I know a few who swear by them and go as far to say "you are wasting time without them" But whatever. In the back of my mind I am hoping to never buy another reflector again. Everything looks great Bob. Keep it up.


Yeah, the Magnum seems like it's gonna be the shit - that's a full-sized treadmill in the picture, and the reflector's almost as large as it is.

Thanks for stopping by, and for the kind words.

Checked out your grow, and all's looking good - you're so far ahead of me at 17 days that I'm too intimidated to comment 

Just took 15 more super skunk clones and eight more bubblelicious clones (five minutes ago), getting ready for my next run - need to build up my army beforehand...............still undecided on 144 vs. 64, and need to make that decision at some point relatively soon.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 5, 2010)

I would lean toward a gradual buildup. Try 64 and if it looks like you can add more next time then cool. They will still bush out and fill the allocated space no matter what. No loss. If you fill it with 144 itsy bitsy fukrs they may just piss you off. Baby steps.

Are the babies under a HPS?


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## Bob Smith (Jan 5, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> I would lean toward a gradual buildup. Try 64 and if it looks like you can add more next time then cool. They will still bush out and fill the allocated space no matter what. No loss. If you fill it with 144 itsy bitsy fukrs they may just piss you off. Baby steps.
> 
> Are the babies under a HPS?


Seedlings and rooted clones are under my 400HPS on the top shelf, and mamas and fresh cuttings (like an hour ago fresh) are under fluoros on the bottom shelf.

Honestly, I'm kinda leaning towards the 144 because I think it'd actually be less work then the 64 - have the trays that hold 18 4" pots a piece, so rotating the plants would be much easier then rotating 64 individual 6" containers.

Also, I think it'd be easier to do multiple strains, because the small pot size would be a limit on the height of all the plants, whereas with the 6" pots the taller strains would quickly overtake the shorter strains.

Also, last but certainly not least, there's the height issue - with 64, they'd all have to be ~2' tall to maximize production, which is pushing (if not over) the maximum height my tent can handle (with its current setup). Can keep the 144 much shorter (like 12") and maximize light distribution and headroom.

I really just don't know, but I appreciate your input.

I'll fuck it up either way, so it's really down to whether we want a "meh" fuckup or like a colossal fuckup of epic proportions.

I like to go big or go home, sooooo...........


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## smokingrubber (Jan 5, 2010)

I think they're going to push to the size their genetics wants them to. Your biggest problem is height, no matter how many you pop imo.

Go big or go home . . . all damn day! LOL.


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## skinnyone (Jan 5, 2010)

Bob are you growing NYC Power Diesel?


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## Bob Smith (Jan 5, 2010)

skinnyone said:


> Bob are you growing NYC Power Diesel?


Yes I am, sir.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 5, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> I think they're going to push to the size their genetics wants them to. Your biggest problem is height, no matter how many you pop imo.
> 
> Go big or go home . . . all damn day! LOL.


Yeah, definitely leaning towards the 144 right now, if for no other reason then to be able to say I tried it.

EDIT: I'd be remiss if I didn't mention that the buds are really starting to pack on some weight, very noticeable from even a few days ago when those pics were taken (New Year's Day). Will take some new pics and post either tonight or tomorrow.

And again, that Bubblelicious #1 smells like straight fucking bubblegum, is highly resinous, and has some solid nugs on it - a definite keeper, and my favorite out of the group by far.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 5, 2010)

looking good bob...


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## Lo'pan (Jan 6, 2010)

Well after watching Rbaha's 104 plant SOG you would be crazy to not try the 144 at least once!


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## DaGambler (Jan 6, 2010)

all caught up bob... k, k, i skipped just a couple pages... 

i'd like to somehow work a propane gen into a non-cooled setup (my own) at some point... guess you can kind of alternate the co2 w/ventilation to that effect, but we'll see.

as far as numbers go... you'll have to run ur own experiments i'm sure, as i did... had over 200 plants in flower at one point, dropped back to 48 and the next run i'll only have 24. SeeMoreBuds ran up to like 300 plants per 4x4... over a 100 of them died... he'd say it was worth it. But imo, it's not. Especially when you consider the legality of running over 99 plants ... or 48 in flower and 48 in clone.

I'm also a Lucas man. i run 1 part Micro to 2 part Bloom in flower (G.H.) and 2 parts Micro to 3 parts Bloom in veg.

You ever think of growing outside the box (tent)? Throw up a partition and bang out a couple more 600's... or like 4, as you were saying... Fug a tent, brotha 

Will stay tuned,

-DaGambler
.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 6, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> all caught up bob... k, k, i skipped just a couple pages...
> 
> i'd like to somehow work a propane gen into a non-cooled setup (my own) at some point... guess you can kind of alternate the co2 w/ventilation to that effect, but we'll see.
> 
> ...


Happy to have you, my friend - I might need you to produce my next video and make it a little flashier  My thick New..............er, LA accent doesn't really make people wanna get up and dance.

Anywho, I fully concur with you (and others), and decided last night that 64 was the way to go - going to try and do 64 of the bubblelicous, but if I can't get enough clones soon enough, gonna do 32 BL and 32 SS.

And as far as expansion goes, my plan is an 8x8 tent (the DR240) with four 600s over four 3x3 tables. 

That would push out some weight.

Also, how come you use Flora and not nova? Just because you run different mixtures for veg and flower? I just use floranova bloom from seed to harvest, although I get more and more samples each time I go to the hydro store, and plan to give them a try at some point.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 6, 2010)

Happy with the flowering tent progress, and also pleased that I'm now set on doing 64 for my next run 

Now just need to figure out some timing - started flowering on 12.1, so figure 9 weeks should be plenty (especially with CO2, which cuts some time off), which will be January 31st.

For minimal downtime, I need to get 72 clones cut ASAP - figure I'll need to veg the clones for ~10 days (to get to ~8" tall before flowering), so that means that I'd need to cut the clones in about a week.

That could be a problem 

Oh well, need to decide if it's worth it to wait an extra week or two to only run SS and BL or if I can throw some other strains in there as well.

Anyways, enough jibber jabber, here's some pics - just attached them at the bottom without captions (they're pretty self-explanatory); if anyone has a question about any of them, just lemme know.


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## Integra21 (Jan 6, 2010)

They're coming along nicely Bob. Buds are frosting up and thats my favorite part of early flower. Good luck with the clones, and did you ever get the generator problem figured out?


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## Bob Smith (Jan 6, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> They're coming along nicely Bob. Buds are frosting up and thats my favorite part of early flower. Good luck with the clones, and did you ever get the generator problem figured out?


Unfortunately no, haven't really been messing with it too much - seems like the tanks are lasting longer then I'd remembered (like closer to 10-14 days per), so it hasn't been at the top of my priority list.

Need to figure out what direction the garage is going in (staying with a 4x4 for the foreseeable future, or upgrading and really rocking it out) before I know if that needs to be addressed.

If the 4x4, probably just stay with tanks, and if doing 8x8, probably get a plumber to run the natural gas line into the generator, which will make the quick usage someone of a moot point (waste is still not good, but natural gas is fairly inexpensive).

That being said, there's still a leak (or something) somewhere - even burning 15cuft/hr, it still should've been able to run like 200 hours, which is running constantly for two weeks (during lights on).

I know that it didn't run constantly (more like once every five-ish minutes), so it should've lasted me about 2.5 months - again, obviously an issue there.







EDIT:

Integra, you mean this? I got it working, but it burned through the propane WAY faster then it should've, according to the numbers..........

[youtube]kRXXJyuok90[/youtube]


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## Integra21 (Jan 6, 2010)

one though is maybe the delivery system. If you have a fan hooked to ducting and then hooked to the generator it would have been possibly sucking mass amounts of air in through the generator and mixing it with your co2 causing the co2 to spike and then deminish quickly turning back on the generator. In a sealed room, it should only kick on for a minute or so 1-2 time an hour. My buddies room is bigger than your tent and hit is only on for about 60sec every hour. If you can get the generator in the tent, You will probly have much better results.


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## DaGambler (Jan 6, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Also, how come you use Flora and not nova? Just because you run different mixtures for veg and flower? I just use floranova bloom from seed to harvest, although I get more and more samples each time I go to the hydro store, and plan to give them a try at some point.


i've actually got a 5 gal. jug of that Nova stuff... but its all goopy and stuff... seems like its meant for a soil grow with plenty of bioligicals to make the nutes bio-available. I had problems using it in a perlite setup, seemed like the plants were having a hard time using it - so i went back with straight chemical nutes that are readily available to the plant. Being a cheap bastard, i'll prolly try to get some more use out of that jug at some point though. Do you add biologicals so that they can use it in the hydrotron ?
.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 6, 2010)

Yeah it's like mud LOL! Really thick and expensive mud! I simply added it to the reservior. It took almost 24 hrs before it mixed completely and fully registered on the tds meter. 200ml of mud added 900ppm to my 40 gallon reservior (after 24hrs).


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## Bob Smith (Jan 6, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> i've actually got a 5 gal. jug of that Nova stuff... but its all goopy and stuff... seems like its meant for a soil grow with plenty of bioligicals to make the nutes bio-available. I had problems using it in a perlite setup, seemed like the plants were having a hard time using it - so i went back with straight chemical nutes that are readily available to the plant. Being a cheap bastard, i'll prolly try to get some more use out of that jug at some point though. Do you add biologicals so that they can use it in the hydrotron ?
> .


Negative; by biologicals I assume you're referring to some organics of some kind? Because as far as I know (and I'm pretty damn sure), FNB is as "chemmy" as they come - nothing alive in it, at all.

And I don't add anything; just 8mL/gallon of R/O water.

Try to keep my PPMs between 900-1100 (@.5 conversion), and pH from 5.6 - 5.8.

Even though the plants directly under the light have serious light bleaching, and the one or two that have had their fan leaves get caught in the oscillating fan wall have some fan leaf damage, the majority of the plants have lush green foliage, and I haven't had to add nutes in about two weeks (jumped up to ~1700PPMs on me a couple of weeks ago because I added too much in, so have just been adding water since then).

Most people would say that the reservoir needs to be changed because they're not taking up the nutes in the proper ratios, etc., but I let the leaves and the plants tell me what's what - they look happy as hell (the ones that aren't being torched under the light, anyways).

EDIT: for those late to the party, I haven't changed the reservoir since the tent's inception, which was the first week of November. It's a 35 gallon reservoir.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 6, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Yeah it's like mud LOL! Really thick and expensive mud! I simply added it to the reservior. It took almost 24 hrs before it mixed completely and fully registered on the tds meter. 200ml of mud added 900ppm to my 40 gallon reservior (after 24hrs).


You need to shake it up really, really well - one of the first times I was doing it, I was really getting into it (for some weird reason), and was shaking the fuck outta that little bottle - of course, went too far and clocked myself right in the forehead with it - for those that don't know, a bottle is about the weight of a brick.

That fucking hurt.


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## wonderblunder (Jan 6, 2010)

looking good over here bob. Things are looking good. I love rapid rooters. They do stay a little moist, but they can be watered from the bottom unlike RW. with RW I have to spend twice as much time making sure they are moist enough and not to moist, because RW tends to bring out the extremes of both worlds. Looking good Bob. Love it


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## HookedOnChronic (Jan 7, 2010)

nice bob, so your flowering plants are in hydro? which kind if u dont mind, and i saw your pics you told me to check out, the plants in flower now are the ones u have "bobbipopped" right?? lol love that name


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## Bob Smith (Jan 7, 2010)

HookedOnChronic said:


> nice bob, so your flowering plants are in hydro? which kind if u dont mind, and i saw your pics you told me to check out, the plants in flower now are the ones u have "bobbipopped" right?? lol love that name


Yuppers, they're in hydroton in 2 gallon pots in a 4x4 E&F tray (35 gallon reservoir).

And the title of the thread tells you what they are


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## HookedOnChronic (Jan 7, 2010)

yea i meant what kind of hydro, bubbleponics, flood system, etc...

they do vary right?? still a hydro noob


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## Bob Smith (Jan 7, 2010)

HookedOnChronic said:


> yea i meant what kind of hydro, bubbleponics, flood system, etc...
> 
> they do vary right?? still a hydro noob


Ah, gotcha 

"E&F" is short for "ebb and flow", which is another name for a flood system.


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## HookedOnChronic (Jan 7, 2010)

cool, glad ya got me there
gonna be fun to follow along!
peace


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

A couple of things before the pics:

1) Done using a R/O filter - the fucker just takes too long for me, and it seems like every time I use it I forget about it and almost flood the garage.

My tap water isn't that bad (150PPM, 7.5pH), so I'm just gonna use that and know that I'll be using more pH down (not a biggie).

Also lets me be much more flexible with my refilling and changing needs because now I'll have water on demand, as opposed to having to plan a day or two in advance.

2) For my next grow, I'm going to still run the Lucas formula, but change out my reservoir every two weeks - even though the plants that aren't light-bleached have healthy foliage for the most part, I've gotta believe that changing every two weeks is better for them then not - was just laziness on my part (in addition to having to use an RO filter), so that settles that.

3) Still haven't figured out what I'm doing with this next grow - 80% sure that I'm going with 64 as opposed to 144 (I'm fickle, I know), but I haven't figured out what combination yet.

Obviously homogeneous gardens are the most efficient, but I'm wondering if I should go that way with this one, or maybe run 16 of four different strains to see which yields best? Maybe 32 of two strains? 64 of one strain? Anyone's thoughts would be appreciated........really just can't wait for this grow to be done so I can get a "real" grow underway - three weeks until chopping.........

So that being said, here's some pics:


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## hollywood420 (Jan 11, 2010)

good shit bob. i think if you have the space you shouldgo with the 16 of each strain so you can eliminate the weaker of the 4. at the end of the day it all comes down to the yeild and quality right.. so bob do you mind if i ask you a question about my heating issue. i take your advise to heart.. you are a grow god in my eyes...lol.... i have read all your threads for advise on my own grow and cant find this one question in any of them...


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

hollywood420 said:


> good shit bob. i think if you have the space you shouldgo with the 16 of each strain so you can eliminate the weaker of the 4. at the end of the day it all comes down to the yeild and quality right.. so bob do you mind if i ask you a question about my heating issue. i take your advise to heart.. you are a grow god in my eyes...lol.... i have read all your threads for advise on my own grow and cant find this one question in any of them...


Thanks very much for the (undeserved) compliment, but what's your question?

EDIT: just noticed (from your sig) that we're both back to growing after a ten-year hiatus.............fairly ironic.

I'm still ironing some things out for this first grow, but I've got high hopes for this upcoming one.


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## hollywood420 (Jan 11, 2010)

is it ok that my temps are staying 3-7 degrees warmer during lights out then lights on? how will this affect my yield and potinency of my buds. strain is grandaddy purp..


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

hollywood420 said:


> is it ok that my temps are staying 3-7 degrees warmer during lights out then lights on? how will this affect my yield and potinency of my buds. strain is grandaddy purp..


I don't see why that would be a huge issue; obviously it's not ideal, but it won't turn your buds into schwag or anything (assuming day and night temps are in an acceptable range).

I'm assuming you're running your lights at night, and the temp drop is great enough that even with the added heat from the light(s), it's not as great as the mid-day heat?

What kinda temps are we talking?


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## hollywood420 (Jan 11, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> I don't see why that would be a huge issue; obviously it's not ideal, but it won't turn your buds into schwag or anything (assuming day and night temps are in an acceptable range).
> 
> I'm assuming you're running your lights at night, and the temp drop is great enough that even with the added heat from the light(s), it's not as great as the mid-day heat?
> 
> What kinda temps are we talking?


 well about the lights i was running them at night but i didnt have a temp change at all, so i flipped them to the day time and this gave me the temp diffrence. my temps are from 74-78 lights out and 70-75 lights on.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

That doesn't make much sense, kiddo - if it's hotter during the day, and you're running your lights during the day, by definition it should be warmest during the day and coolest at night.

Regardless, those temps are fine.


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## hollywood420 (Jan 11, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> That doesn't make much sense, kiddo - if it's hotter during the day, and you're running your lights during the day, by definition it should be warmest during the day and coolest at night.
> 
> Regardless, those temps are fine.


 now you understand why im  lmfao thanks alot


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## wonderblunder (Jan 11, 2010)

Looking real nice. Hey Bob, Can't you get those auto top off valves and hook it to an RO so you always have a resavoir of Ro'ed water. I would be scared of flooding too. I run my water from the washing machine cold water........


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

wonderblunder said:


> Looking real nice. Hey Bob, Can't you get those auto top off valves and hook it to an RO so you always have a resavoir of Ro'ed water. I would be scared of flooding too. I run my water from the washing machine cold water........


I probably could, but that's just one more thing that could go wrong, in all honesty.

If my water was like 500PPMs and 9.5pH, then it'd definitely be worth it, but it just seems like the time it takes and the things that I have to forgo (like more frequent rez changeouts) aren't worth the incrementally cleaner water.

If when I change I start noticing some issues then I'll revisit the situation, but I'm pretty confident that they'll be fine (and actually do better with more frequent changeouts).

As I typed this I also just started leaning more towards doing 144 plants instead of 64 - I really need to not be so damned fickle.

Also, there was no way I'd be able to expand to four tables and use that RO filter - would take me the better part of a week to change them all out, whereas with a hose and a pump it'll take an hour or two.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 11, 2010)

hey bob i say run 2 strains. 32 each.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

If I do 64 that's kinda where I'm leaning - 32 super skunk and 32 bubblelicous.


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## shnkrmn (Jan 11, 2010)

You could get a second RO filter. I let mine run over night. It gets me about twenty gallons at a time that way and doesn't overflow because who can resist checking before breakfast?. Between veg needs and my soon arriving ebb and grow system I may be constantly harvesting water in order to have enough on hand for res changes. My tap water is nearly 400 ppm, so I worry about all the Ca locking everything out.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 11, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> If I do 64 that's kinda where I'm leaning - 32 super skunk and 32 bubblelicous.


cant wait for that... i think you'll like sog just as much as me


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## wonderblunder (Jan 11, 2010)

Go big on the plants 144.... Push it.......


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

shnkrmn said:


> You could get a second RO filter. I let mine run over night. It gets me about twenty gallons at a time that way and doesn't overflow because who can resist checking before breakfast?. Between veg needs and my soon arriving ebb and grow system I may be constantly harvesting water in order to have enough on hand for res changes. My tap water is nearly 400 ppm, so I worry about all the Ca locking everything out.


With tapwater like yours, a filter is kinda a necessity, but with mine, I don't think it is.

If I do decide that it's something that I can't live without, I'll just get the Merlin (it's pretty expensive, but puts out ~40 gallons an hour - even that amount isn't enough for me, though).


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> cant wait for that... i think you'll like sog just as much as me


Yeah, this is my only ever grow (okay, second - I did five gallon grow bags one time way back in the day to test it out) where I haven't gone at least 2 plants/sf, and I hate it.

Used to do 1/2 gallon grow bags (filled with Pro-Mix) and pack those fuckers in there.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 11, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> With tapwater like yours, a filter is kinda a necessity, but with mine, I don't think it is.
> 
> If I do decide that it's something that I can't live without, I'll just get the Merlin (it's pretty expensive, but puts out ~40 gallons an hour - even that amount isn't enough for me, though).


If you've got space outside you could get a large reservior (250 gallon horse trough for less than $200). Get a good sump pump and a 50ft garden hose. Once your big reservior fills overnight, it will take about 10 minutes to fill any 50 gallon reservior inside. You could probably even use tap water if you let the reservior sit for 24hrs before you filled your small reserviors.

You could even put a pump in it and add a little waterfall. Yard Art


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> If you've got space outside you could get a large reservior (250 gallon horse trough for less than $200). Get a good sump pump and a 50ft garden hose. Once your big reservior fills overnight, it will take about 10 minutes to fill any 50 gallon reservior inside. You could probably even use tap water if you let the reservior sit for 24hrs before you filled your small reserviors.
> 
> You could even put a pump in it and add a little waterfall. Yard Art


Yeah, I'm really just over it (and for security reasons, can't setup anything outside of the garage).

Trust me guys, I'm not that worried about it - my plants will enjoy the bi-weekly changes of 150PPM water more then they will the 0PPM water for three months straight


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

Anyone who said "well, that's obviously an extra humidity dome, heating pad, and slab of 98 rockwool 1" cubes so that you can practice before taking 196 clones for your next run of 144", then give yourself a pat on the back.

Fuck it, we're going 144 - made up my mind in the hydro store twenty minutes ago.

Gonna go take 98 clones real quick as practice (haven't worked with rockwool in over a decade), so I'll be back in a bit.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 11, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Also, there was no way I'd be able to expand to four tables and use that RO filter - would take me the better part of a week to change them all out, whereas with a hose and a pump it'll take an hour or two.


You don't need 4 seperate reserviors. One reservior with 4 pumps. All tables drain back to the single reservior. Then stagger the fill schedule and after one tray fills and drains, then next one uses the same water. And so on. Just make sure it's a good sized reservior and you shouldn't have any problem. I'm running 3 trays off one reservior at my other grow. Works perfect!

The only problem is when you have to manouver the reservior and you'll have 4 pumps in there to deal with. Not that big of a deal after you've done it a couple times.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 11, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> You don't need 4 seperate reserviors. One reservior with 4 pumps. All tables drain back to the single reservior. Then stagger the fill schedule and after one tray fills and drains, then next one uses the same water. And so on. Just make sure it's a good sized reservior and you shouldn't have any problem. I'm running 3 trays off one reservior at my other grow. Works perfect!
> 
> The only problem is when you have to manouver the reservior and you'll have 4 pumps in there to deal with. Not that big of a deal after you've done it a couple times.


Yeah, planning on one reservoir per every two tables, so if I do 2 1Ks I'll only have 1 reservoir, and if 4 600s, I'll have two.

Took a bunch of clones - got tired and didn't bother with the full 98, but there's probably about 70-80 in there.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 11, 2010)

On my other grow, our 1000w magnetic ballast went out about 6 weeks ago. A friend had a 600w digital he loaned us. It's been running for almost the entire flower cycle (we chopped last night). I would estimate that the buds are about 30% smaller than normal. The overall yield loss is extremely obvious. I am definately glad I stuck with 1000w ballasts.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 11, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> View attachment 678254
> View attachment 678255
> View attachment 678256
> 
> ...


you should give root riot a try bob. it is much easier to work with and is better in my opinion. it come pre moistened so there is no guess work involved. the hardest part of using rockwool is getting it conditioned right. i have wasted a ridiculous number of clones trying to use rockwool. you should do a tray of root riot cubes also to see which one you like better.... just my .02 cents


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## Bob Smith (Jan 12, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> you should give root riot a try bob. it is much easier to work with and is better in my opinion. it come pre moistened so there is no guess work involved. the hardest part of using rockwool is getting it conditioned right. i have wasted a ridiculous number of clones trying to use rockwool. you should do a tray of root riot cubes also to see which one you like better.... just my .02 cents


Just took a look at the website, seems like Root Riot cubes are basically identical to the Rapid Rooters that I was using; they work fine for me, but the issue is numbers - I can only fit 72 clones per tray using either of those, whereas the rockwool comes in slabs of 98.

We'll see how this rockwool run goes, but I'd like to avoid having to buy another humidity dome and heating pad (I think two should be enough).

For today, going to try to fill up the empty spaces in the rockwool (~20 clones), and going to transplant all the remaining clones (threw away a bunch yesterday) into larger containers so that I can have tons of clones ready to be cut in a couple of weeks.

Also gonna clean in the garage, it's a mess in there anymore.

EDIT: for my rockwool, I just put the slab in the tray, and "dunked" the tray into my veg rez (which was like 5.6 at the time, but was close enough to 5.5 for me), and called it a day - been a looooooong time since I've used it, but the directions said just quickly put the cubes into 5.5pH water, so I did.

Also, I noticed that with the thickness of the rockwool, there seems to be a lot more consistent humidity in the dome - I'll try to get a pic to show you guys, but it seems like there won't be the "hot" spots (areas that are too wet or too dry) that I found with Rapid Rooters because there's no insert (to hold the Rooters) to muck up their heights relative to each other.


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## DaGambler (Jan 12, 2010)

shnkrmn said:


> You could get a second RO filter. I let mine run over night. It gets me about twenty gallons at a time that way and doesn't overflow because who can resist checking before breakfast?. Between veg needs and my soon arriving ebb and grow system I may be constantly harvesting water in order to have enough on hand for res changes. My tap water is nearly 400 ppm, so I worry about all the Ca locking everything out.


and it would. a constant supply of RO'ed water is one less thing to worry about when you have a huge rez and a RO device hooked up to an automatic float valve with solenoid...







http://cgi.ebay.com/RO-DI-FLOAT-VALVE-LEVEL-LOCK-AQUARIUM-TOP-OFF-SYSTEM_W0QQitemZ230416112494QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item35a5dedb6e

if the float rising up doesn't shut it down there's also an emergency float switch that shuts it down at the bottom of the unit. if ur changing out ur rez you can just leave like 1/4 in the tank and within 1-2 days it'll be back up to level (200 gal+) with almost no down time. As long as you've got a 100-200 gal. per day RO unit. With the solenoid you can even have it on a timer so that it isn't filling during a ebb 'n flow cycle... but i just leave mine on as the water that comes in during that time would never be enough to even replace what the plants are using.
.


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## wonderblunder (Jan 12, 2010)

Sounds like things are moving here.....


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

Might use the R/O filter once I've got the garage totally cleaned out and can have the proper setup, with float valve, auto-off features, and whatever else would make it so I don't worry about flooding.

But that's down the line - my next issue is figuring out how I'm gonna deal with getting air conditioning into my garage, which is generally 10F warmer then outside air, and even more then that in the summertime with the sun beating down on the roof. To further complicate things, there's only one window in there, which is a pathetic 12" wide (and about that high).

Besides the fact that the window wouldn't support any AC (my preference would've been for a window unit, but even a 14000BTU portable needs at least 20" of window width), an AC sticking out of my garage window would be a security risk.

So, I'm thinking I need to build a room within a room - took measurements about five minutes ago, and I have about a 14x8x8 footprint to be able to use.

Basically 8x8 of that would be for two 1Ks covering a 6x6 area, and the other 6x8 would be for vegging plants, ballasts, CO2, drying box, the portable AC, and things like that - would love to keep them outside of the "enclosure" to reduce heat inside, but temps can easily hit 110 in there, which means trouble for CO2 tanks and ballasts.

And when I say "build a room", I'm not thinking just some 2x4s covered in panda film - I'm talking plywood as well, to make this somewhat of a permanent structure (possibly even with insulation, but that might be too ambitious).

Two Questions - *anyone know of any software that would let a tard like me be able to sketch out my room ideas to make sure they work?*

*And, anyone know of any good tutorials for building an actual room?* I've looked around before when I was thinking of building a tent and didn't find anything worthwhile - I'm talking a step-by-step for someone like me who doesn't know the first thing about it (I've looked around, and tutorials just say "nail them together", and I have no idea where to nail, what nails to use, etc. - things like that are where I need the pointers).


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## skinnyone (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Might use the R/O filter once I've got the garage totally cleaned out and can have the proper setup, with float valve, auto-off features, and whatever else would make it so I don't worry about flooding.
> 
> But that's down the line - my next issue is figuring out how I'm gonna deal with getting air conditioning into my garage, which is generally 10F warmer then outside air, and even more then that in the summertime with the sun beating down on the roof. To further complicate things, there's only one window in there, which is a pathetic 12" wide (and about that high).
> 
> ...


Bob you could try Google Sketchup

http://sketchup.google.com/


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

skinnyone said:


> Bob you could try Google Sketchup
> 
> http://sketchup.google.com/


Thanks; gave that a go for the last hour and it's clearly above my paygrade in terms of figuring out how to use the fucker.

I just need something simple, with a bird's eye view to make sure the layout fits in terms of spacing.

Might use a simple Windows drawing program, if I can find it.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 13, 2010)

If you PM me with your dimensions I can help this evening. I'm at work now and I have to attend a BIG program meeting (the kind where I introduce myself then say nothing for 2 hours) today. I can knock out something for you later though.

I don't think you're going to be happy with 2 lights in a 8x8 area. That means each light has to cover 4x8 . . . might as well just use 1 light if its got to cover 8ft across anyway. I vote for 4k since it's all going to be AC'ed anyway.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> If you PM me with your dimensions I can help this evening. I'm at work now and I have to attend a BIG program meeting (the kind where I introduce myself then say nothing for 2 hours) today. I can knock out something for you later though.
> 
> I don't think you're going to be happy with 2 lights in a 8x8 area. That means each light has to cover 4x8 . . . might as well just use 1 light if its got to cover 8ft across anyway. I vote for 4k since it's all going to be AC'ed anyway.


Firstly, good luck on your meeting  - lotsa people hate public speaking/presentations, but I'm pretty outgoing so I never had much of an issue with it - just walk in there dick swinging like you own the place and you'll be fine 

Secondly, the 8x8 flower room wouldn't be totally filled to the walls - it'd be 4 3x3 trays in there (so a 6x6 plant footprint) that the 2 1Ks would be covering, and that's only a couple square feet more then a 4x8 (32 vs. 36). I want the room to be a little oversized so I have room to the side for a dehumidifier, CO2 tanks (although would probably go generator in that size), and whatever else, instead of having to cram them underneath a tray, which has led to the height issues I'm currently having.

The size of the box is going to be right around 12 feet long by 8 feet wide and 7 or 8 feet high - need to do some more measuring, but that's 95% accurate to what it's gonna be.

Heading to Home Depot now to get some ideas - BTW, anyone know how to cut perfect 6" holes (for the ducting)? I know there's a way to do it, maybe I'll ask my Home Depot guy........some drill attachment or something.

EDIT: 4K's not an option because I'm not wired for that much juice in there; that being said, was thinking of having an electrician come out and turn one of my new 120V 20 amp circuits into a 240V circuit - anyone know how difficult that would be for him? Figure as long as I'm totally going to be cleaning out the garage that this is my last chance to get anything done that I need to, because this is gonna be the final project - anyone have any specific requests or suggestions of what I could get done while my garage is empty? FYI, will take place after my next harvest, so sometime in mid to late April, hopefully beating the hot summer weather.

Will move a small tent inside for the week or two it takes to get rocking and rolling so that my clones will be ready to roll whenever.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Firstly, good luck on your meeting  - lotsa people hate public speaking/presentations, but I'm pretty outgoing so I never had much of an issue with it - just walk in there dick swinging like you own the place and you'll be fine


No no, I'm _supposed_ to say nothing. There will be a bunch of Directors and senior managers (20+) from various companies that have decisions to make and discuss. I'm just the guy that's going to do most of the _actual work._ I'm going to listen and take notes like a good worker-bee . 



Bob Smith said:


> Secondly, the 8x8 flower room wouldn't be totally filled to the walls - it'd be 4 3x3 trays in there (so a 6x6 plant footprint) that the 2 1Ks would be covering, and that's only a couple square feet more then a 4x8 (32 vs. 36). I want the room to be a little oversized so I have room to the side for a dehumidifier, CO2 tanks (although would probably go generator in that size), and whatever else, instead of having to cram them underneath a tray, which has led to the height issues I'm currently having.
> 
> The size of the box is going to be right around 12 feet long by 8 feet wide and 7 or 8 feet high - need to do some more measuring, but that's 95% accurate to what it's gonna be.
> 
> Heading to Home Depot now to get some ideas - BTW, anyone know how to cut perfect 6" holes (for the ducting)? I know there's a way to do it, maybe I'll ask my Home Depot guy........some drill attachment or something.


I'll scratch that out this evening. Good luck at Depot! I have this involentary gag reflex every time I get near a Home Depot now. I get dizzy just walking down the isles. It's a good thing I know where everything is already!


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> that being said, was thinking of having an electrician come out and turn one of my new 120V 20 amp circuits into a 240V circuit - anyone know how difficult that would be for him?


Bob, this is easy, I did this myself last week. Worked out great. Not a problem unless you have no room left in your breaker box. To do it just replace the single breaker with a double pole breaker and connect the white and black wires to it and the ground wire to ground. (make sure you know where all the outlets that this line supplies and label correctly so you don't plug anything else into them.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

cazador said:


> Bob, this is easy, I did this myself last week. Worked out great. Not a problem unless you have no room left in your breaker box. To do it just replace the single breaker with a double pole breaker and connect the white and black wires to it and the ground wire to ground. (make sure you know where all the outlets that this line supplies and label correctly so you don't plug anything else into them.


Sounds like certain death for me - lemme look into it some more and see if I can find a tutorial somewhere.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> No no, I'm _supposed_ to say nothing. There will be a bunch of Directors and senior managers (20+) from various companies that have decisions to make and discuss. I'm just the guy that's going to do most of the _actual work._ I'm going to listen and take notes like a good worker-bee .
> 
> 
> 
> I'll scratch that out this evening. Good luck at Depot! I have this involentary gag reflex every time I get near a Home Depot now. I get dizzy just walking down the isles. It's a good thing I know where everything is already!


Ahhh, the old "this is what we want, can you make it happen for us" kinda meeting - well good luck regardless 

And the guys at Home Depot ask me where stuff is these days 

BTW, found what I needed (will need) - it's a 6" attachment for my drill which is supposed to be for installing recessed lighting - $25, not too bad (didn't buy it, was just looking around for ideas).


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Sounds like certain death for me - lemme look into it some more and see if I can find a tutorial somewhere.


I hear you. It's really not that bad, I can give you more detailed info if you need.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

cazador said:


> I hear you. It's really not that bad, I can give you more detailed info if you need.


Would love it if you would - I'm really, really hesitant to fuck around with electrical, but according to the below, it should be kinda easy (because that outlet is the only one for that breaker):

Wiring from 110 to 220
I need to change a plug in outlet from 110to 220 so I can plug in a window AC/Heating unit. What do I have to do?
More than likely, you need to run a brand new wire to the outlet from a new breaker in your box. Unless (which is unlikely) the outlet is the only one on a circuit now. Let me see if I can explain.
To wire a 220 outlet, a new 220 (double pole) breaker is installed in your box. From this both the black and the white wires will be hot when checked or wired to ground. You are wiring from both sides of the 110 in your box. Going from either line to ground is 110. Going from one side to the other is 220. That is why the breaker in your box is a double one ganged together.












Ok.. so if you are not comfortable with wiring in your service box, leave that to an electrician. But you can run the wire to the outlet yourself.
For an air conditioner, you probably want a 20 amp circuit. So the sire size would be 12 gauge.
You will need a 220, 20 amp outlet. And if you are wiring this separate, go with a new outlet box and leave the old one be. (unless for reasons of "looks" you don't want another outlet there.)
If by some lucky chance the outlet now is the only outlet and fixture on the circuit, you would only need to change the outlet to a 220 outlet and connect the wires in the service breaker box to a 220 breaker. The size of the breaker and the outlet would depend on the present wiring. So if there is 12 gauge there now, you can go with a 20 amp breaker and outlet. If there is only 14 gauge then you would go with a 15 amp outlet and breaker.
Wiring in your service box is dangerous, because even when you turn off the main circuit breaker, the lines coming in attached to the main breaker are live (and bare) So the box is never dead unless the power company shuts off the power.


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

I'll see if I can take some pics or draw up an image to detail things for you. Ok, so you have a dedicated outlet, the next thing we will need to know is the type of line that is run to this outlet. It will most likely be a "12/2 w G" or "14/2 w G" (gauge of wire, amount of insulated wires, plus a ground wire.) We need to know the gauge wire so you can get the correct breaker for your box. Oh yea, open the breaker box, you may need to remove the front cover as well. Find the breaker that is going to the outlet you want to switch over to 220v. Check to see if there is enough room to fit in a double pole breaker (breaker with two switches connected together). You will be removing the current breaker and adding the new double pole breaker, if room is tight they sell half height breakers that fit in the space of a single breaker. If there is room in there for the new breaker but you need to located in another spot of the box make sure the wires will reach the new location. (when the box was first setup they tend to cut things close so sometimes it's hard to rearrange things.) If all checks out then the rest is almost done. The wire will have the markings on them telling you what wire you are using and what breaker to get. 10 gauge=30amp, 12gauge=20amp, 14gauge=15amp--- breaker

right now your breaker is setup so that the black wire is connected to the breaker and the white wire and ground wire are connected to the neutral bus. When you replace this breaker with the double pole breaker you connect the white and black wire to the breaker and only the ground wire to the neutral/ground bus/bar. It doesn't matter which side of the breaker the black and white wires are connected to. I did this with the power live last week although I wouldn't recommend it to someone else to do. So make sure you turn the main breaker off if you can which will kill power to your whole box except the main power (Big power lines)coming to this main breaker (usually the upper most breaker). It's pretty straight forward. Hopefully I didn't confuse things to much. Like I said earlier I'll try to get some pics or diagram drawn up to make things a bit clearer. Ask if you don't understand or have any questions.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

cazador said:


> I'll see if I can take some pics or draw up an image to detail things for you. Ok, so you have a dedicated outlet, the next thing we will need to know is the type of line that is run to this outlet. It will most likely be a "12/2 w G" or "14/2 w G" (gauge of wire, amount of insulated wires, plus a ground wire.) We need to know the gauge wire so you can get the correct breaker for your box. Oh yea, open the breaker box, you may need to remove the front cover as well. Find the breaker that is going to the outlet you want to switch over to 220v. Check to see if there is enough room to fit in a double pole breaker (breaker with two switches connected together). You will be removing the current breaker and adding the new double pole breaker, if room is tight they sell half height breakers that fit in the space of a single breaker. If there is room in there for the new breaker but you need to located in another spot of the box make sure the wires will reach the new location. (when the box was first setup they tend to cut things close so sometimes it's hard to rearrange things.) If all checks out then the rest is almost done. The wire will have the markings on them telling you what wire you are using and what breaker to get. 10 gauge=30amp, 12gauge=20amp, 14gauge=15amp--- breaker
> 
> right now your breaker is setup so that the black wire is connected to the breaker and the white wire and ground wire are connected to the neutral bus. When you replace this breaker with the double pole breaker you connect the white and black wire to the breaker and only the ground wire to the neutral/ground bus/bar. It doesn't matter which side of the breaker the black and white wires are connected to. I did this with the power live last week although I wouldn't recommend it to someone else to do. So make sure you turn the main breaker off if you can which will kill power to your whole box except the main power (Big power lines)coming to this main breaker (usually the upper most breaker). It's pretty straight forward. Hopefully I didn't confuse things to much. Like I said earlier I'll try to get some pics or diagram drawn up to make things a bit clearer. Ask if you don't understand or have any questions.


Thanks, appreciate it, but I'm still kinda leery - actually just put the breaker box cover back on - had taken it off and was looking at it and imagining what my body would smell like with all those amps running through it.

Anyways, after getting back from Home Depot and seeing/remembering how big and heavy 8x4 pieces of plywood are, I've got a new game plan.

Have 60 amps in there (3 dedicated 20 amp circuits), and I was trying to build a "structure" because I wanted to get away with running 1 AC (14000BTUs) for the entire garage, but I'm starting to think that I don't have to.

Thinking I could have the 8x8 DarkRoom tent with two 1Ks in there and an AC, and that would be a totally sealed environment.

Would also move my vegging trays/lights/etc. into my 4x4 tent, which would make enough room for me to put a smaller portable in there - thinking like 8000 BTUs should do it? Anyone know? I'm no AC expert, and the ambient temps could get up to 110ish on uber hot days, but I think 8000BTUs should be sufficient for a 400HPS and some fluoros.

So now it comes down to handling that energy load - the 14000BTU AC pulls 1200 watts, so that could share a circuit with the 400HPS (and still be under the 80% safety threshold).

Circuit #2 would be a 1K and the smaller AC, which is ~800 watts - again, right at the 75% safety zone.

Circuit #3 would be the other 1K, pumps, fluoros, etc - wouldn't need a dehumidifier anymore because of the two ACs.

That scenario would just force me to enrich the veg tent with CO2 (because it'd be fully sealed), which ain't that big of a deal - just buy another regulator and a timer.

The only thing (well, one of the things) that sucks about not being able to cool the entire garage is that air-cooling the lights is now impossible - makes no sense to pull in 100F air from the outside to cool them.

Of course, it'll sure make setup easy without having to worry about installing any ducting 

So, I have three questions:

1) Does anyone see any issues with the circuits being loaded the way I foresee? Of course a 240V circuit would solve all of my problems, but I'm quite leery about that - that being said, if the answer to my next question is "no", I guess I'm just gonna have to bite the bullet.

2) Does anyone know anything about running sealed rooms and the size of AC required for that? I figure a 14000BTU should take care of an 8x8 (it's recommended for 400-525 square feet) room with 2 1Ks in it, even if it's 110 outside of the tent. Can the same be said for an 8000BTU in a 4x4 tent with a 400HPS and some fluoros?

3) When the electrician gave me those two circuits, he said that only one of them was GFCI or some such shit (something to do with grounding) - anyone know if this is an issue or not, and if it is, what it means?

Sorry for the long-windedness.

EDIT: of course, could go to 4 600s instead, which would mean:

Circuit 1 - 14000BTU AC and 1 600HPS
Circuit 2 - 3 600HPS
Circuit 3 - 1000BTU AC (pulling say 1000 watts), pumps, timers, fans, etc.

This way would cost mucho mas dinero - as opposed to buying one more 1K and a Magnum (for $500, all-in), it'd be about $1500+.


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

GFCI = ground fault circuit interrupter, it is meant to protect YOU from shock in the case of a short. I don't see how this will affect anything either way. (unless your standing in water, then I'd go with the GFCI if I had one)

If I were close by, I'd stop by and help connect the circuit


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 13, 2010)

hey bob have you thought about using the ice box instead of a/c? thats what im going to use in my room i just built. heres the link if you dont know what it is. 
http://www.growlightexpress.com/water-cooled-lights-8/ice-box-heat-exchanger-6-inch-306.html


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> hey bob have you thought about using the ice box instead of a/c? thats what im going to use in my room i just built. heres the link if you dont know what it is.
> http://www.growlightexpress.com/water-cooled-lights-8/ice-box-heat-exchanger-6-inch-306.html


Yeah, don't think they would really work in place of air conditioning, no matter what they say.

Also, running a 1000W chiller kinda defeats the purpose, but you never know - I was actually thinking of getting one of those to make my CO2 generator setup cooler before it arrived in my grow room.

I'm currently doing research on split ACs and their installation - think an 18000BTU split AC could handle the whole garage, and wouldn't require me building anything too crazy - just need to know what it looks like on the outside (for security reasons, can't have anyone wondering why I've spent so much money to cool a garage where I just "store stuff" - my friends are curious and nosy creatures).


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

cazador said:


> GFCI = ground fault circuit interrupter, it is meant to protect YOU from shock in the case of a short. I don't see how this will affect anything either way. (unless your standing in water, then I'd go with the GFCI if I had one)
> 
> If I were close by, I'd stop by and help connect the circuit


Well where are you? I can be many different places...........I'm in Santa Cruz today


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Well where are you? I can be many different places...........I'm in Santa Cruz today


Sorry I'm much farther North. I would be happy to do it if I was closer. Only you know if you feel like doing this yourself so if your not feeling up to it don't do it. If all you want is to switch the line to 220v then it's a 15min job. whoever dose it will probably want to change out the outlet also.

I'm here if you decide to DIY.


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## Integra21 (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Firstly, good luck on your meeting  - lotsa people hate public speaking/presentations, but I'm pretty outgoing so I never had much of an issue with it - just walk in there dick swinging like you own the place and you'll be fine
> 
> Secondly, the 8x8 flower room wouldn't be totally filled to the walls - it'd be 4 3x3 trays in there (so a 6x6 plant footprint) that the 2 1Ks would be covering, and that's only a couple square feet more then a 4x8 (32 vs. 36). I want the room to be a little oversized so I have room to the side for a dehumidifier, CO2 tanks (although would probably go generator in that size), and whatever else, instead of having to cram them underneath a tray, which has led to the height issues I'm currently having.
> 
> ...


Converting to 240 is simple and cheap. Alls you really need is the breaker changed out and the outlet changed out., and bam, 240v. Have you tried looking for a home renovation or building for dummies? they got just about a book for everything. I know its not your forte, but framing in a room is fairly easy, generally people use 2"x4" to frame it in and rent a nailgun ment for framing. The guy at the local home depot should be able to help some. But dont trust every thing he says. I would help, but you live too far bob.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Converting to 240 is simple and cheap. Alls you really need is the breaker changed out and the outlet changed out., and bam, 240v. Have you tried looking for a home renovation or building for dummies? they got just about a book for everything. I know its not your forte, but framing in a room is fairly easy, generally people use 2"x4" to frame it in and rent a nailgun ment for framing. The guy at the local home depot should be able to help some. But dont trust every thing he says. I would help, but you live too far bob.


So to convert, would I need an empty breaker spot either above or below the current 120V breaker? Or just anywhere on the panel? Or would I need an extra slot at all?

And as far the "structure" situation goes, I'm still in limbo on that - currently researching mini-split ACs and how effective they are. Figure an 18KBTU one of those could probably do a pretty good job, and if I get wired for 240V, I could still have a portable in the flowering tent to be totally sealed.

EDIT: I'll put some pics up of my breaker box and the breaker in question tomorrow - hopefully that can help you guys help me a little better. You guys have made it sound pretty moronically easy, so I'm gonna give it a go, but if I die by electrocution, I'm gonna be really, really, really mad at you two 
DOUBLE EDIT: Here's something for you guys - my garage and shed share a 40amp breaker (20 amps to each) - could I wire that line up for 240V as well? Nothing EVER runs in the shed, ever.........like ever.

Holy crap would that be a bundle of power........


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## Integra21 (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> So to convert, would I need an empty breaker spot either above or below the current 120V breaker? Or just anywhere on the panel? Or would I need an extra slot at all?
> 
> And as far the "structure" situation goes, I'm still in limbo on that - currently researching mini-split ACs and how effective they are. Figure an 18KBTU one of those could probably do a pretty good job, and if I get wired for 240V, I could still have a portable in the flowering tent to be totally sealed.


Yeah, the 240v breaker is a double pole, so it takes out 2 slots. Also, if you look at the specs for most portable a/c units, they say not to opperate them in ambient temps above 90F because the air is to warm to cool the compressor. So doing a full insulation job on the garage and giving it a split a/c is probly the way to go. otherwise, you might be able to make an intake into the house and pull cool air from there, and setup a roof exhaust to get the general summer temps down(insulation probly still needed) and them you might be able to pull off the portables and tents. I trying to cook up some other ideas still, but this is what I got so far.


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> So to convert, would I need an empty breaker spot either above or below the current 120V breaker? Or just anywhere on the panel? Or would I need an extra slot at all?
> QUOTE]
> 
> An empty breaker spot adjacent to the current breaker would be ideal but not likely. You might be able to get a half-height double pole breaker to replace the current breaker (it depends on the type of box you have) or locate a new spot that the new breaker will fit and make sure you have enough wire to reach it and the neutral bar.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Also, if you look at the specs for most portable a/c units, they say not to opperate them in ambient temps above 90F because the air is to warm to cool the compressor.


Well that settles that then - Integra, you're a handy guy to have around, my friend 

I've been researching ACs all day and haven't seen that once, but I 100% believe that is probably the case.

That being said, a split AC is what it's gonna have to be, it sounds like.

Well, there's another couple of grand for my hobby


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

cazador said:


> Bob Smith said:
> 
> 
> > So to convert, would I need an empty breaker spot either above or below the current 120V breaker? Or just anywhere on the panel? Or would I need an extra slot at all?
> ...


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> So to convert, would I need an empty breaker spot either above or below the current 120V breaker? Or just anywhere on the panel? Or would I need an extra slot at all?
> 
> And as far the "structure" situation goes, I'm still in limbo on that - currently researching mini-split ACs and how effective they are. Figure an 18KBTU one of those could probably do a pretty good job, and if I get wired for 240V, I could still have a portable in the flowering tent to be totally sealed.
> 
> ...


 
A picture would be good. There are many things you can do to get more power depending on how things are run. If any of your lines are 3 wire lines (i.e. 12/3 w G) you can use them to run two 20 amp 120 lines or a 240v line and two 120 lines like I did last week.

I ran a 10/3 line. ran 240v to the room off a 30 amp breaker, spit the line at the room to run my timer, controller and fan all 120v, used the timer to trip a relay connected to the 240v leg to turn on the lights. works great and 3.6k of lights only using 15 amps and a total of about 18 amps running over the 30 amp line keeps the line running cooler with less resistance and more efficient (less power loss)


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> cazador said:
> 
> 
> > I'm gonna go take a pic right now of the breaker box with the cover removed so you two can get a better idea of what I'm dealing with here - back in ten with a pic.
> ...


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

I owed you guys these shots from yesterday (or maybe the day before) - regardless, that tray is totally filled now - bout 95 outta 98 slots are being used.




And here's the panel - I believe "17" is where that piece of shit electrician ran both of my 20amp garage circuits into - not sure, but that'd be my guess.

So, since it looks like he already used a double breaker thingamuhbobber, I assume that I can't change one of those to 240V, correct?

However, number "12" should be fair game to changeover, right? In fact, do I even need to change it over, as it's already (basically) a 40amp breaker?

EDIT:

Here's some pics of the box from October 6th, before anything was done to it by the electrician - I'm gonna look for differences so I can figure out which circuits he installed (if any).








DOUBLE EDIT: So it looks like he used "18", not "17", but the issue is the same - he used one slot for two circuits, and has two little breakers in there as opposed to one "real" one. 

However, looks like "13" is an empty breaker.


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## Integra21 (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Well that settles that then - Integra, you're a handy guy to have around, my friend
> 
> I've been researching ACs all day and haven't seen that once, but I 100% believe that is probably the case.
> 
> ...


Yeah, but if it make your setup more productive and easier to maintain, then its money well spent. As far as the temps for portable a/c's, just find the owners manual for the one you have or were planning on getting, and its usually lited in the begening under safety, they never advertise it, but I was looking a 3 different units and ordered one this week, and all 3 said the same thing about the max operating temp. figured I'd give you the info incase you had any doubts. Its really funny too, because I'm putting in a dedicated 240v outlet tomorrow for my new Lumatek dual 600w ballast. also putting in a dedicated 20a for portable ac, and a stadard 15a to run the rest since my whole room was on a shared circuit with my pc and basement tv setup.


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob 18 and 20 look like they are spares? (not used?). If so, then that's what you want to use. either connect them together with the proper pin or cover plate. Or pop them out and bring to HD and get them to show you a double pole breaker that will work for you. $20. Then figure which of the lines you want to be the 240v line, grab the black from the breaker and the white that is paired with it. Connect the black to one the white to the other and you might want to move the ground to that side neutral bar too.
now your running 240v over the line. I'll do a better safety step by step if you like.

edit - if using the current breakers pull them out and look at the bottom each one should be connected to one of the main bars and each should be connected to a different one(not the same 120v incoming). I'll clear it up in a bit just need a smoke break


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## Bob Smith (Jan 13, 2010)

cazador said:


> Bob 18 and 20 look like they are spares? (not used?). If so, then that's what you want to use. either connect them together with the proper pin or cover plate. Or pop them out and bring to HD and get them to show you a double pole breaker that will work for you. $20. Then figure which of the lines you want to be the 240v line, grab the black from the breaker and the white that is paired with it. Connect the black to one the white to the other and you might want to move the ground to that side neutral bar too.
> now your running 240v over the line. I'll do a better safety step by step if you like.
> 
> edit - if using the current breakers pull them out and look at the bottom each one should be connected to one of the main bars and each should be connected to a different one(not the same 120v incoming). I'll clear it up in a bit just need a smoke break


I think that you may be looking at the older pics from October 6th - the two newest pics from today are the first two, and I'm pretty sure he used "18" to run the extra two circuits out to the garage.

Not sure "20" was a spare in either case - matter of fact, I'm not sure there's a spare at all in the panel - will take another couple of pics tomorrow from a better, more heads-on angle.

I guess I'm shit outta luck if there's no extra slot, huh?

And even if there is an extra slot, I'd need to save it for the mini-split, which I'm kinda set on right now (just need to find out a way to hide it from my girl ).

BTW, anyone know what's up with the massive price variation in mini-splits? An 18000BTU from LG is $2400, whereas an 18000BTU from Soleus is $800 - anyone know why this might be?


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## cazador (Jan 13, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> I think that you may be looking at the older pics from October 6th - the two newest pics from today are the first two, and I'm pretty sure he used "18" to run the extra two circuits out to the garage.
> 
> Not sure "20" was a spare in either case - matter of fact, I'm not sure there's a spare at all in the panel - will take another couple of pics tomorrow from a better, more heads-on angle.
> 
> ...


No problem. Looks like you have one more knock-out #1 on the top left of the panel. You should be able to get a half-height-double-pole breaker to fit. You can move everything up.

Not sure about the A/C's

edit-edit-- bob looks like you already have 240V, 20amp going to the garage and shed, or it's feeding another breaker somewhere? Looks like it's 3 wire red,black,white,ground. gauge?


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## Bob Smith (Jan 14, 2010)

cazador said:


> No problem. Looks like you have one more knock-out #1 on the top left of the panel. You should be able to get a half-height-double-pole breaker to fit. You can move everything up.
> 
> Not sure about the A/C's
> 
> edit-edit-- bob looks like you already have 240V, 20amp going to the garage and shed, or it's feeding another breaker somewhere? Looks like it's 3 wire red,black,white,ground. gauge?


Not sure about the gauge, but those two are noticeably thicker then the other wires in there - will it just have it written on the wires? Gonna go take a couple of pics now.

Also, pretty sure an 18000BTU mini-split is the way to go, and then I can run my flowering tent with a 14000BTU and keep it totally sealed.

Planning on running my generator in there, but if I do, I'd want to run the natural gas line into the garage - figure (hopefully) the same guy can setup my AC and run the line, but I need a good reason for why I'd want natural gas into my garage (other then a heater, which the mini-split already is) - anyone have any believeable reasons for needing natural gas in a garage? I'm going to tell him that I'm turning my garage into a TV room to explain the mini-split.

Back in five with some pics.

EDIT:

Firstly, this thread should really be in growroom design at this point.

Secondly, here's the pics - the wire on the garage/shed dual breaker is definitely thicker then the rest of the wire in there, but I don't know how to tell what gauge it is.

That being said, assuming I run 0 power in the shed (I don't), and ASSUMING THAT THE WIRE CAN HANDLE IT (not sure), I could theoretically run 40 amps on the garage wire, no? If the wire's strong enough and it's got a "defacto" 40 amp breaker, that works, no? Sorry if that's a moronic question, but if it's somehow right, that'd give me ~80 amps to play with, and I wouldn't need to do any re-wiring.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 14, 2010)

So the clones that I took in the rapid rooters are 90% rooted - some have vigorous systems coming out, but almost all have something, and if they don't have anything, they're attached to the plug, at least.

8 days isn't too bad, and lets me think that I can minimize my downtime pretty well - gonna try to run 72 of BL and 72 of SS, and I think (hope) that I could cut 100 clones of each strain before February 1st, which is chopping day.

Unfortunately, it seems as though my Rubbermaid 50 gallon reservoir (for the veg tent) has a leak in it somewhere, so I'm gonna go to WalMart and grab another to double it up - this is a temporary fix, but as I'm so up in the air as to what my setup's gonna look like in a few months, I'm hesitant to go buy a $100 reservoir that I might not end up using.

Also going to transplant the BL and SS clones tomorrow, so hopefully I'll be able to get ~6 clones off of each in two weeks, giving me my 198 

Other then that, just doing some research on split ACs, studying for CFA Level III, and just opened my Rosetta Stone that I got for Christmas (trying to learn Russian).


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## cazador (Jan 14, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Not sure about the gauge, but those two are noticeably thicker then the other wires in there - will it just have it written on the wires? Gonna go take a couple of pics now.
> 
> Also, pretty sure an 18000BTU mini-split is the way to go, and then I can run my flowering tent with a 14000BTU and keep it totally sealed.
> 
> ...


Obviously it would be easier if I could walk around and take a look. But it looks like we're getting closer. Can you trace and describe how the garage/shop 240v/20amp line is run? Do you have a 240v outlet in either place or another sub-panel(breaker box)? Dose it just end up running 120V to both places (this seems strange as the breaker you show has them bonded together as a 2 pole line, so as I see it, it should be delivering 220v somewhere or they should have been split.(20amps to each space.) If there is enough of the main wire covering exposed there will be numbers on it describing the gauge and amount of wires (i.e.12/3 w G, 10/2....) knowing the gauge might allow you to switch out to a larger breaker, (10gauge = 30amp.?)then you can just add a sub panel if you don't already have one in the garage to split the line, 120v for the A/C and 240V for lights and whatever else you can. I did this without using a sub-panel and just split the load in the G-room (so I guess your 240V line might be doing something similar). Let me know if this circuit has a white wire too, I'm sure it dose. If this line is running to your garage and shed as you said and is not being used then you are already set with 40amps available! you just need to know exactly where and how this line is run. Can you follow the line? Open the boxes it supplies and see which wires are going where. (black,white,copper-ground-to garage, red,white, copper-ground to shed...?)which (all) outlets are supplied... Once you know all this then your ready to go.

As far as the natural gas running to the garage. You could DIY too. I wouldn't worry about coming up with a reason. Sounds like you have reasons enough already. NG heater is cheaper to use, Do you have power outages or worried about them a NG generator is safer to run and can run without the need to refill as long as the gas lines are working. You might want to put a NG clothes dryer in the garage for any reason. Tell them your buying the new NG Hybrid car and you want to fill it up at home  I wouldn't think that adding a NG line to the garage would raise much suspicion.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 14, 2010)

cazador said:


> Obviously it would be easier if I could walk around and take a look. But it looks like we're getting closer. Can you trace and describe how the garage/shop 240v/20amp line is run? Do you have a 240v outlet in either place or another sub-panel(breaker box)? Dose it just end up running 120V to both places (this seems strange as the breaker you show has them bonded together as a 2 pole line, so as I see it, it should be delivering 220v somewhere or they should have been split.(20amps to each space.) If there is enough of the main wire covering exposed there will be numbers on it describing the gauge and amount of wires (i.e.12/3 w G, 10/2....) knowing the gauge might allow you to switch out to a larger breaker, (10gauge = 30amp.?)then you can just add a sub panel if you don't already have one in the garage to split the line, 120v for the A/C and 240V for lights and whatever else you can. I did this without using a sub-panel and just split the load in the G-room (so I guess your 240V line might be doing something similar). Let me know if this circuit has a white wire too, I'm sure it dose. If this line is running to your garage and shed as you said and is not being used then you are already set with 40amps available! you just need to know exactly where and how this line is run. Can you follow the line? Open the boxes it supplies and see which wires are going where. (black,white,copper-ground-to garage, red,white, copper-ground to shed...?)which (all) outlets are supplied... Once you know all this then your ready to go.
> 
> As far as the natural gas running to the garage. You could DIY too. I wouldn't worry about coming up with a reason. Sounds like you have reasons enough already. NG heater is cheaper to use, Do you have power outages or worried about them a NG generator is safer to run and can run without the need to refill as long as the gas lines are working. You might want to put a NG clothes dryer in the garage for any reason. Tell them your buying the new NG Hybrid car and you want to fill it up at home  I wouldn't think that adding a NG line to the garage would raise much suspicion.


No 240V power/outlet in either the shed or the garage, but I know that there's a wire running to each (i.e., they each are wired for their own dedicated circuit - there's a wire to the garage and a wire to the shed running straight from the breaker box - they don't share the same wire out). Tried to look at the wire, but there's not enough exposed to see what gauge it is - if it helps, all the other wires are gray, and the shed/garage wire and the heater/central AC wire are the only two pairs covered in orange wire.

And they run out of the breaker box sharing one copper wire, although I'm not sure if that gets split somewhere along the way.

All that being said, here's where I stand on the issue at present - if I understand correctly (a stretch, to be sure), the fact that the garage and shed share a dual 20 amp breaker means that either one of them has full access to 40 amps, assuming the wire can handle it, correct?

That being said, the wire is clearly thicker then other wires running to 20amp circuits, so even if it can't handle the full 40amps without shorting, it can most likely handle thirty amps, correct?

If the answer to both of those two questions is "yes" (and from my limited understanding I think it is), then I can run both my 1Ks on the garage/shed circuit, and I've got plenty of power in there for whatever I may want to do.

Hell, even if it isn't, since I'm planning on getting a mini-split AC to cool things off, I think that the re-wiring job isn't necessary.

But I really appreciate your help, and I reserve the right to change my mind again in five minutes and decide to electrocute myself 

Anyone who's followed the thread knows that I can be quite fickle.

EDIT: bought another ozone generator today:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.nexternal.com/tbt/images/23774_CAOZN1.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.thebigtomato.com/catalog/cap-ozone-generator.htm&usg=__NOEbxN1-L-P1X5IGSVjPcFCeVMI=&h=320&w=320&sz=9&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=B2Bnee45u_U01M:&tbnh=118&tbnw=118&prev=/images?q=cap+ozone+generator&hl=en&sa=N&um=1

The little one just isn't getting it done right now, but I'm pretty sure that this one will knock odors the fuck out.

Also re-washed hydroton for the first time today - in all honesty, wasn't that bad - beats the shit outta washing it for the first time.


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## wonderblunder (Jan 14, 2010)

Sounds like things are moving...... Looking forward to seeing the additions...... WHy do you need to hide the AC?


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## cazador (Jan 15, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> No 240V power/outlet in either the shed or the garage, but I know that there's a wire running to each (i.e., they each are wired for their own dedicated circuit - there's a wire to the garage and a wire to the shed running straight from the breaker box - they don't share the same wire out).


So, if I understand the garage and shed wires don't share the same orange cover-insulation, but share a ground wire?



Bob Smith said:


> Tried to look at the wire, but there's not enough exposed to see what gauge it is - if it helps, all the other wires are gray, and the shed/garage wire and the heater/central AC wire are the only two pairs covered in orange wire.


I'll say the orange wire is a 10 gauge wire able to handle 30Amps.



Bob Smith said:


> And they run out of the breaker box sharing one copper wire, although I'm not sure if that gets split somewhere along the way.
> 
> All that being said, here's where I stand on the issue at present - if I understand correctly (a stretch, to be sure), the fact that the garage and shed share a dual 20 amp breaker means that either one of them has full access to 40 amps, assuming the wire can handle it, correct?


I am pretty sure that the wire for the garage/shed (I'll add a pic soon) is a 10/3 wire from what you have said and from what I see. I don't think it should be connected to the 20Amp 2 pole "connected" breaker, like it is(not a big deal). This is what I'd do if I were you. Find the dedicated outlet in the garage, open it up. Take a look and and note how it is wired. You either have the black/white/ground or red/white/ground connected to this outlet but you should see all 4 wires in there( I think). If so, Then I'd change out the breaker for a 30Amp 2 pole breaker just like the one you have but 30Amp. now you can leave the shed alone so you can keep the power there. If you grab the red and black and ground wire, connect them to an outlet you have 240V, 30Amp power.




Bob Smith said:


> That being said, the wire is clearly thicker then other wires running to 20amp circuits, so even if it can't handle the full 40amps without shorting, it can most likely handle thirty amps, correct?


correct, two- 30Amps, 120 circuits, or a 30Amp 240 circuit and 120V outlets (as I have now.)



Bob Smith said:


> If the answer to both of those two questions is "yes" (and from my limited understanding I think it is), then I can run both my 1Ks on the garage/shed circuit, and I've got plenty of power in there for whatever I may want to do.


Sound like it.



Bob Smith said:


> Hell, even if it isn't, since I'm planning on getting a mini-split AC to cool things off, I think that the re-wiring job isn't necessary.
> 
> But I really appreciate your help, and I reserve the right to change my mind again in five minutes and decide to electrocute myself
> 
> ...


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## Bob Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

cazador said:


> So, if I understand the garage and shed wires don't share the same orange cover-insulation, but share a ground wire?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Firstly, thanks again for all your help - it's very much appreciated 

Now, lemme just make sure I've got this one point clear and there's no misunderstandings:

*Leaving things EXACTLY as they are right now (same dual 20amp breakers, etc.), and ASSUMING that the wire running to the garage is a 10 gauge, capable of handling 30 amps, then I can safely run ~25 amps on that line without worrying about tripping a breaker, correct? Like this second, if I wanted to?*

I.e., even though the breaker for the garage is only 20amps by itself, because it's sharing with the shed, those 20 shed amps are already available to the garage, with the only limiting factor being the wire gauge, which appears to be ~30amps?


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## cazador (Jan 15, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Firstly, thanks again for all your help - it's very much appreciated
> 
> Now, lemme just make sure I've got this one point clear and there's no misunderstandings:
> 
> ...


No problem, I'm happy to help out.

The answer is NO. As it stands right now you have 20Amps to the garage and 20Amps to the shed and the breaker should not be connect as it is(double-pole bonded). I think you should be able to grab the 20Amp shed line if it is going to/through the garage too. Then you'll have two 20Amp lines there until you replace the breaker to a 30 amp breaker.

Make sense? 

The wire can handle 30 amps but the breaker will trip at around 20Amps until you switch it out to a 30amp breaker and/or make the other wire to the shed available to the garage then you'll have two 20Amp lines in the garage.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

cazador said:


> No problem, I'm happy to help out.
> 
> The answer is NO. As it stands right now you have 20Amps to the garage and 20Amps to the shed and the breaker should not be connect as it is(double-pole bonded). I think you should be able to grab the 20Amp shed line if it is going to/through the garage too. Then you'll have two 20Amp lines there until you replace the breaker to a 30 amp breaker.
> 
> ...


Aww, fudge 

I was thinking that the shed and garage basically shared a 40 amp breaker, but it seems as though they each have their own 20 amp breakers, and for some strange reason they're connected.

Got it.

Soooooooooo, how hard is replacing a breaker? Looks like I'd need to replace two, huh? Put a "normal" 20amp in for the shed and put a 30amp in for the garage, no?

Please tell me this is as simple as a screwdriver and a Home Depot run............please......

EDIT: just Googled it and this shit looks fucking simple, even for me (you're all allowed to laugh at that statement when you catch a sniff of my burning corpse five states away). Hmmmmm, might have to run to Home Depot real quick.

DOUBLE EDIT: Is this what I would need? This said that the wire size should be an "8".

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers-Breakers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZbm16Z1xr5/R-100676698/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

Also, you think it makes more sense to put one double breaker in there or put the garage on its own 30 and the shed on its on 20?


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## cazador (Jan 15, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Aww, fudge
> 
> I was thinking that the shed and garage basically shared a 40 amp breaker, but it seems as though they each have their own 20 amp breakers, and for some strange reason they're connected.
> 
> ...


Yup, simple as a screwdriver and a Home Depot run.

depending on how you want to proceed you need either one of-

http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers-Breakers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5Zbm16/R-100356511/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

or Two of 
http://www.homedepot.com/Electrical-Breakers-Distribution-Load-Centers-Breakers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZ1xr5Zbm16/R-100356509/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

not sure if these are the correct ones for your box but when you go to HD bring that double 20 amp breaker with you. That way you know it will fit and is the correct one for your box.

Skype would make this so much easier


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## Bob Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

cazador said:


> Yup, simple as a screwdriver and a Home Depot run.
> 
> depending on how you want to proceed you need either one of-
> 
> ...


Yes it would, but it'd be hard for you to keep a straight face giving instructions to someone wearing a Scream mask 

So, according to this, I don't even need to cut the power to the breaker to take it out? Can that be right?

http://homerenovations.about.com/od/electrical/ss/artremovcircuit.htm


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## cazador (Jan 15, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Yes it would, but it'd be hard for you to keep a straight face giving instructions to someone wearing a Scream mask
> 
> So, according to this, I don't even need to cut the power to the breaker to take it out? Can that be right?
> 
> http://homerenovations.about.com/od/electrical/ss/artremovcircuit.htm


Correct you don't HAVE to turn of the MAIN power just turn off the breaker and pop it off the panel. Be careful of the bar behind the breaker as it is HOT. Once the breaker is pulled of the panel you can safely disconnect the wire from the breaker without worry of shock. Just make sure you keep everything clear of the empty spot left on the panel where the breaker was.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

cazador said:


> Correct you don't HAVE to turn of the MAIN power just turn off the breaker and pop it off the panel. Be careful of the bar behind the breaker as it is HOT. Once the breaker is pulled of the panel you can safely disconnect the wire from the breaker without worry of shock. Just make sure you keep everything clear of the empty spot left on the panel where the breaker was.


Gracias, mi amigo 

Gonna give it a go sometime early next week.


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## cazador (Jan 15, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Gracias, mi amigo
> 
> Gonna give it a go sometime early next week.


Por nada*, *feliz de ayudar.


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## BooMeR242 (Jan 15, 2010)

sorry to jump in here so late bob but just skimmin thru the journal and its long as shit so its gonna b a while but do have to say i like where ur heads at with ur setup and design. i could def learn a few tips from ya when i flip to hydro. ill check in time to time following along with a question or two.

anyways scribed and rep+ for the legit setup


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## Bob Smith (Jan 15, 2010)

BooMeR242 said:


> sorry to jump in here so late bob but just skimmin thru the journal and its long as shit so its gonna b a while but do have to say i like where ur heads at with ur setup and design. i could def learn a few tips from ya when i flip to hydro. ill check in time to time following along with a question or two.
> 
> anyways scribed and rep+ for the legit setup


Happy to have you; you and your avatar are always welcome


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## BooMeR242 (Jan 16, 2010)

haha thanks i sure hope so


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## Integra21 (Jan 16, 2010)

How the electrical coming bob? Sorry I havent been here for a fw days, but been real busy with my remodel. Just ran my 240v outlet today. It is very simple if you have the openings(you dont yet?) But as far as that goes, you should be able to add a secondary breakerbox right next to your current one(should cost about $300) and move all of your grow breakers to that. the new outlets and 240 would be a breeze then, and would all be seperate from the standard house ones. You wouldnt believe the amount of work I've had to do over the last few days and whats still to come in the next few. I'm hoping to have the new room up and running by next weekend. small preview since its your thread, moved the 400w up to the veg room, putting 2 new 600w's in the room, adding a portable ac and hydrogen minigen running on the cppm1, same controller as you without the environmental controls. This version of the room will be fully sealed. As of right now, I have the whole room tore down, have all of the new outlets ran(240v for lights, 20a for ac, and a new 15a for everything else), and had to reconfigure all of the ceiling joists to get me an extra 10" of height so the 600w's wont burn my plants. I hope all your shenanaganz are going to plan. I guess I'll find out after you read this. Sorry to blab in your thread, but I figured you like keeping track of similar work.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 17, 2010)

wonderblunder said:


> Sounds like things are moving...... Looking forward to seeing the additions...... WHy do you need to hide the AC?


Wonder, sorry I missed this question the first time around - basically, the garage is supposed to just be storage, so an AC sticking outta the window would be kinda conspicuous.



> How the electrical coming bob? Sorry I havent been here for a fw days, but been real busy with my remodel. Just ran my 240v outlet today. It is very simple if you have the openings(you dont yet?) But as far as that goes, you should be able to add a secondary breakerbox right next to your current one(should cost about $300) and move all of your grow breakers to that. the new outlets and 240 would be a breeze then, and would all be seperate from the standard house ones. You wouldnt believe the amount of work I've had to do over the last few days and whats still to come in the next few. I'm hoping to have the new room up and running by next weekend. small preview since its your thread, moved the 400w up to the veg room, putting 2 new 600w's in the room, adding a portable ac and hydrogen minigen running on the cppm1, same controller as you without the environmental controls. This version of the room will be fully sealed. As of right now, I have the whole room tore down, have all of the new outlets ran(240v for lights, 20a for ac, and a new 15a for everything else), and had to reconfigure all of the ceiling joists to get me an extra 10" of height so the 600w's wont burn my plants. I hope all your shenanaganz are going to plan. I guess I'll find out after you read this. Sorry to blab in your thread, but I figured you like keeping track of similar work.


Electrical's coming along, I guess - seems like I should have plenty of power into the garage, assuming the mini-split can be put on its own circuit and won't cannibalize the 60 amps that are in there. If anything, since it seems like the garage/shed are on 10gauge wire, I might just replace the breakers and make them 30amp, which would give me a total of 70 amps in the garage.

Sounds like your room's coming along very, very well - got an ETA to be up and running?

I'm thinking that my complete overhaul will start on or about 4.15.10, and hopefully won't take more then a week or two (hopefully just a few days, though).

BTW, I'm back to wanting 4 600s instead of 2 1Ks - figure I might as well get all the power I can in the limited room I have.


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## Integra21 (Jan 17, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Wonder, sorry I missed this question the first time around - basically, the garage is supposed to just be storage, so an AC sticking outta the window would be kinda conspicuous.
> 
> Electrical's coming along, I guess - seems like I should have plenty of power into the garage, assuming the mini-split can be put on its own circuit and won't cannibalize the 60 amps that are in there. If anything, since it seems like the garage/shed are on 10gauge wire, I might just replace the breakers and make them 30amp, which would give me a total of 70 amps in the garage.
> 
> ...


Cool. Glad your figuring it out. Im planning on having the room fully up and running with the plants in it by Saturday. Since it's so much changed, dooing test runs for a couple of days once everything is plugged in.


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## statik (Jan 17, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> BTW, I'm back to wanting 4 600s instead of 2 1Ks - figure I might as well get all the power I can in the limited room I have.


I would have to agree that 4 600's would be better. You have more points of light and the bulbs can be placed closer to the tops of plants. Your coverage would be awesome.


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## cazador (Jan 17, 2010)

statik said:


> I would have to agree that 4 600's would be better. You have more points of light and the bulbs can be placed closer to the tops of plants. Your coverage would be awesome.


I have been thinking about this for a while. ( 4 600's vs 3 1000's) I think they both have their pro's and con's. couldn't decide, so 3 1000's are being tested out.
better coverage vs deeper penetration.

Definitely go with 4 600's over 2 1000's.

Bob , I think I saw you say you were thinking of adding a sink to your garage. Don't wait! It will be one of the best things you do. Worth every effort and penny.


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## statik (Jan 17, 2010)

cazador said:


> I have been thinking about this for a while. ( 4 600's vs 3 1000's) I think they both have their pro's and con's. couldn't decide, so 3 1000's are being tested out.
> better coverage vs deeper penetration.
> 
> Definitely go with 4 600's over 2 1000's.
> ...


I would think that 3 1000's would top 4 600's for sure. The surface area that would be covered would not really be that much smaller than with 4 600w'ers. The added penetration is a win for sure, especially for only adding in 600 more watts of juice usage.

Bob, how much do think you have thrown at this little venture of yours now? Ha ha...head spinning yet?


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## smokingrubber (Jan 18, 2010)

GO 4K Bob . . . mooohhoooohhahhhaaaaaahhaaaa

My other grow just chopped and he ran a 600 (cuz the 1k blowd up) loaner . . . BIG DIFFERENCE! I know there are pros & cons for both, but I'm just letting you know ... HUGE DIFFERENCE in the size and quantity of bud. If your power panel can handle 4k I would definately do it.

And that was 1k magnetic vs 600 digital btw!


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## Bob Smith (Jan 18, 2010)

statik said:


> I would have to agree that 4 600's would be better. You have more points of light and the bulbs can be placed closer to the tops of plants. Your coverage would be awesome.


Not only the better coverage over four tables, but 20% more wattage/lumens as well.

Seeing as how my footprint is kinda limited, the more watts I can squeeze in there, the better (to a point).



> Bob , I think I saw you say you were thinking of adding a sink to your garage. Don't wait! It will be one of the best things you do. Worth every effort and penny.


Yeah, not quite sure it could even fit very well in there, truthfully - also, not needed, other then for cleaning out hydroton, which I can do once a month inside.

I'll give it some more thought, but the sink will most likely not be an addition.



> Bob, how much do think you have thrown at this little venture of yours now? Ha ha...head spinning yet?


Too much...............if I'm not at $10K yet, I can't be more then a couple hundred away.

Knowing what I know now, could've had my new setup (4 6's) up and running with all the fixin's for ~$5K.

Unfortunately, since the only thing that's "transferable" to my new setup will be my fans and Sentinel, that's basically just gonna be an additional $5K.

Oh well.



> GO 4K Bob . . . mooohhoooohhahhhaaaaaahhaaaa


Lol - just don't have enough floor space to justify that - only 10' wide in the garage, and I need to leave 1' on each side, so 4 1Ks would just be overkill - would be pretty cool, but that's even more weed then I'd know what to do with 



> HUGE DIFFERENCE in the size and quantity of bud.


Don't doubt it, but 600s over 3x3 tables should give me plenty of power - I'm guessing your friend just swapped out lights and kept the footprint the same? In that case, there would be a noticeable difference.

There'd be a difference if I used 1Ks over 3x3 tables instead of 600s, but the cost/benefit wouldn't justify it, IMO.

Anyhow, need to get one of those magnifying loupes to look at the tris - seeing a lot of red hairs on certain strains, and I'm thinking they may be almost ready to cut at this point - sucks, because I'm totally not ready to refill the tent back up 

Oh well, we shall see............


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## smokingrubber (Jan 18, 2010)

Yeah, nothing changed as far as footprint. He started flowering with the 1000w and it blew after about 1 week in. He borrowed the 600w digital and he already had a 600w bulb. He used the same hood and the same tables. I would estimate that the size of the buds were 50% smaller this harvest compared to the last ones. His flower area is about 3x5.

Overall his buds were a lot smaller. Maybe there were other variables involved, but it sure seemed like the light made a huge difference. We didn't REALLY notice the difference until we cut them down. He ordered a new 1000w digital ballast the next day. He's still waiting for it to arrive.

Yesterday, I was over there trimming. Every now and then one of us would yell "600 SUCKS" lol.


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## cazador (Jan 18, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Yeah, nothing changed as far as footprint. He started flowering with the 1000w and it blew after about 1 week in. He borrowed the 600w digital and he already had a 600w bulb. He used the same hood and the same tables. I would estimate that the size of the buds were 50% smaller this harvest compared to the last ones. His flower area is about 3x5.
> 
> Overall his buds were a lot smaller. Maybe there were other variables involved, but it sure seemed like the light made a huge difference. We didn't REALLY notice the difference until we cut them down. He ordered a new 1000w digital ballast the next day. He's still waiting for it to arrive.
> 
> Yesterday, I was over there trimming. Every now and then one of us would yell "600 SUCKS" lol.


I like to hear this as I was debating the 600W vs 1000w dilemma. 3 1000's vs 4 -600's. testing 3 - 1000's wondering if 4 - 600's would have been better. but seeing others grows I'm hoping for the best from the 1000's. everything look good so far.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 18, 2010)

There are a couple of factors influencing my decision:

1) Better coverage - my footprint is ~6x6, so 4 600s would leave every inch of that pretty well lit, whereas the 2 1Ks would leave the center "too bright" and the perimeter not lit well enough.
2) Since my footprint is limited, I'd like to pack every watt in (that makes sense), so again, the 600s win
3) Cost - clearly better with the 1Ks, but nothing that can't be recouped fairly quickly
4) Height restrictions - can have the 600s closer to the canopy without as high a risk of light-bleaching, which I like - the reflectors I'll be using are (virtually) the same size as the 3x3 tables, so even with the lights right on top of the canopy, the perimeter will still be well-covered.
5) Even though 1Ks penetrate deeper then 600s, with how short I grow my plants, that extra penetration isn't needed and is (actually) somewhat wasted - the 600s give mee th best bang for my buck in the 1-2' range away from the light, which is where the light in my garden is most needed.

Again, it all depends on footprint - three 1Ks in a 6x6 area makes no sense - even on light movers, that's still more lumens then the plants could really hope to use.

And then, without light movers, any footprint (IMO) that can't be broken down into "squares" (which would each get their own light source) doesn't make a lot of sense - I know some people say that Adjust-a-Wings are perfect for rectangular footprints, but I'm just not really buying it.


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## BooMeR242 (Jan 18, 2010)

i like using the aircooled 600s to keep closer to the canopy and less hot spots like u said. sounds pretty god to me.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 19, 2010)

Let's start with the bad - the fucking smell in my garage is overwhelming.

It's leaking out, and is really starting to be a security concern - thankfully ordered a "real deal" ozone generator that should be here in a few days, but I'm not content with that, so here's the plan:

Since I have a carbon filter sitting in my tent that is never used (literally, the exhaust fans NEVER come on), I'm going to mount that and the 6" inline it's attached to right in the middle of the garage, and just be steady cleaning the air throughout the garage, 24/7 - anyone think of any issues with that? 

Also, I'm gonna install the new ozone generator as soon as I get it, so hopefully this smell problem will be a thing of the past sooner rather then later.

Would love to be able to put panda film over the garage door, but there's so much shit there that I can't even get to it.

Now, the good news:

1) the new 45 gallon reservoir for the veg tent is working marvelously - fifteen gallons larger so I can run both pumps to both trays at the same time, I'm loving it.
2) Flowering plants are coming along - chopping the tops in 12 days (thereabouts), and then might let the bottoms go for a little longer (depending on how much bud matter is left over after I chop)
3) Took the humidity dome off of the rockwool clones yesterday for a few hours, came back and thought that half of them were dead - put it back on, and they all seem to be okay, and there's root growth on a decent amount of them.
4) Since there's root growth, hoping I can transplant them in a few days and then take the massive number of clones on or about 2.1.10, and then (hopefully) start flowering sometime around 2.10, or 2.14 at the latest.

Since temps are going to be an issue, going to have the lights going at night for this run - 9pm on, 9am off.

That's about all I've got for now - will try to take some pics tomorrow morning.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 19, 2010)

Putting the filter in the middle of the room is a good idea. The ozone generator is a concern though. Where are you putting that? Ozone is not good for the plants so if you're just ozoning the whole garage, that's a problem. The filter should do an adequate job all by itself.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 19, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Putting the filter in the middle of the room is a good idea. The ozone generator is a concern though. Where are you putting that? Ozone is not good for the plants so if you're just ozoning the whole garage, that's a problem. The filter should do an adequate job all by itself.


The ozone generator would just be in the garage (out in the open), like my other one is - bought one a few weeks ago that's designed to handle 1000sq. feet, and it worked really well for a few weeks, but now that the ladies are in full flower, it just can't keep up.

The one I have coming is designed for 5500 square feet (mind you the garage is 200 square feet), and I'm not real concerned about just having it out in the open - the flower tent is (for all intents and purposes) sealed, and the veg tent is on the other side of the garage from where it'd be located.

But yeah, the filter needs to do some work - I doubt it's been on for two minutes since I've had it, which is just silly - gonna get on that sooner rather then later.


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## Integra21 (Jan 19, 2010)

Dont forget to plan for the future. If your pulling the exhaust fans to fun the filter, you'll probly need those when it gets warmer. You must have hella stinky strains. From my expierience, hydro dramatically lowers the smell of the garden. Dont know if that is more so with dwc vs ebb&flo, but I have never had a stink problem. But I might have to see if it becomes one with my flower space being doubled. Let me know how much you like that generator Bob. My OzoneJR gets the job done now, but will probly upgrade. I found an in duct one that foes the whole house at human safe levels for $500. Thats what I'm thinking of upgrading to, but I dont see that working for the garage, untill the split ac is unstalled.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 19, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Dont forget to plan for the future. If your pulling the exhaust fans to fun the filter, you'll probly need those when it gets warmer. You must have hella stinky strains. From my expierience, hydro dramatically lowers the smell of the garden. Dont know if that is more so with dwc vs ebb&flo, but I have never had a stink problem. But I might have to see if it becomes one with my flower space being doubled. Let me know how much you like that generator Bob. My OzoneJR gets the job done now, but will probly upgrade. I found an in duct one that foes the whole house at human safe levels for $500. Thats what I'm thinking of upgrading to, but I dont see that working for the garage, untill the split ac is unstalled.


Yeah, good point - I can leave the exhaust fan in there and just take the filter out and swap a fan out from my veg tent, though, so that shouldn't be that big of a deal.

Also hoping that with the hopeful April 15th harvest date and running my lights at night, that heat never gets to be that big of a concern, but we'll see.

I have the CAP OZN Jr right now, and it worked great for a bit, but it's stinky as all fuck in there right now - the one I ordered is also a CAP, but 5.5 times as powerful.


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## laserbrn (Jan 19, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, good point - I can leave the exhaust fan in there and just take the filter out and swap a fan out from my veg tent, though, so that shouldn't be that big of a deal.
> 
> Also hoping that with the hopeful April 15th harvest date and running my lights at night, that heat never gets to be that big of a concern, but we'll see.
> 
> I have the CAP OZN Jr right now, and it worked great for a bit, but it's stinky as all fuck in there right now - the one I ordered is also a CAP, but 5.5 times as powerful.


I use a Uvonair 1000 and that thing cleans up all my stinkies. I use it conjunction with my carbon filter hooked up properly to my tent though. I have mine only come on for 15 minutes every hour and a half and it does the job.

Ozone has a 30 minute half-life so as long as it's not running constantly it's not cumulative and it won't kill your plants. My suggestion is to get one way too big for your growspace and use the timers to regulate it's use. It's better to blast ozone for 15 minutes then to leave it on constantly.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 20, 2010)

Bob, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uRrMvfucY

They set up a HYDROgen generator and 6k watts in a trade-show tent. No AC. This mf is a plumber for sure! He's got some really good ideas in there!


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 20, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Bob, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uRrMvfucY
> 
> They set up a HYDROgen generator and 6k watts in a trade-show tent. No AC. This mf is a plumber for sure! He's got some really good ideas in there!


i already suggested these ice boxes to bob. i dont think hes too interested in them. ill be using them on my new grow room however. but ill be cooling them with my 32000 gallon swimming pool and not a water chiller. hopefully they can work without a water chiller. 

whens chop day bob?


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## Bob Smith (Jan 22, 2010)

Sorry I've been MIA - doing prep work for a phone interview I've got in a couple of hours for a dream job, so that's taken precedence, unfortunately.

Anywho, got my smell problem fixed - just removed the ducting to outside the tent from my exhaust fan and plugged it into its own outlet, so now it's running 24/7 inside the tent, cleaning the air - smells like pure nothing in the garage  (too bad that ozone generator's gonna be here today or tomorrow, cuz I don't even need the fucker right now, methinks).

As far as the ice boxes, they're certainly things that I've considered, but without a reasonable temp to start with, I don't think they'd be that useful; also, it seems like one more thing that could go wrong to me, so a standard portable AC in the tent just seems simpler.

Rbaha, chopping in 9 days - saw your numbers so far off of 59, looking good 

BTW, you mind posting a pic or a link to that spinpro you were talking about? I Googled it and couldn't find much of anything.

The majority of rockwool clones are rooted, so I'm gonna transplant those within the next day or two, and then (hopefully) take 198 clones in 9 days when I chop.

Let the chopped weed dry in my tent for ~10 days, then start the new run on or about February 10th.

That's the goal, anyways.

All right, enough clowning around, back to my three greatest weaknesses


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 22, 2010)

here is a demonstration video. 
http://www.icmag.com/viewarticle.php?articleid=788


and here is the link for it.
http://www.growwurks.com/spinpro-hand-trim-leaf-trimmer.aspx

i got mine for $400 from my hydro store. this is one of my best purchases by far. this thing works like a charm.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 22, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> here is a demonstration video.
> http://www.icmag.com/viewarticle.php?articleid=788
> 
> 
> ...


Damn, that little fucker is badass - so no clogging issues so far? Have you trimmed all 59 plants, and if so, how long did it take?

Just remove large stems and fan leaves and that's it?

EDIT: in case anyone was wondering, I have no idea how that phone interview went. Will know more by Tuesday.


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## cazador (Jan 22, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> here is a demonstration video.
> http://www.icmag.com/viewarticle.php?articleid=788
> 
> 
> ...


Looks good. I've always been Leary about putting fine buds into a mechanical trimmer. I have never used one or seen one firsthand being used. What are your impressions. Looks like your supporting the use of one? Any downsides? Damaged buds? Thanks.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 22, 2010)

When is that supposed to be done? It looks like he's going straight from the first chop to the spinner? No hanging up first? Just chop it down, cut off the buds, spin, and put in the net basket for a few days?

That's a must have imo. If it comes with extra blades, that must mean they break a lot. How often do you have to fix it and how many lbs before a new pack of blades is required?


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 22, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Damn, that little fucker is badass - so no clogging issues so far? Have you trimmed all 59 plants, and if so, how long did it take?
> 
> Just remove large stems and fan leaves and that's it?
> 
> EDIT: in case anyone was wondering, I have no idea how that phone interview went. Will know more by Tuesday.


this thing is the shit. no clogging at all. the only problem i have ran into so far is if you leave the stems long they will bend the wire that trims the leaves. but it came with a bunch of extra wires and changing the wire takes about 30 sec. just remove big fans and buds from the stem and put in the machine. i hand trimmed the first 10 plants. which took between 20 - 30 min per plant. then got fed up and bought the spinpro. this thing is amazing. everytime i put buds inside, spin it and open it im still amazed. now i can do a plant in about 5 min or less. no BS.



cazador said:


> Looks good. I've always been Leary about putting fine buds into a mechanical trimmer. I have never used one or seen one firsthand being used. What are your impressions. Looks like your supporting the use of one? Any downsides? Damaged buds? Thanks.


my impressions??? GO BUY ONE NOW! no j/k. but seriously this thing is nothing less than amazing. if you like sitting with scissors for hours upon hours meticulously trimming buds then this is not for you. but if you want something that will make harvesting easier than ever then invest in one. they even have some that have a motor on top so you dont have to turn then hadle. i think they are like $100 more though. 
no downsides. no damaged buds. just trimming made easy.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 22, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> When is that supposed to be done? It looks like he's going straight from the first chop to the spinner? No hanging up first? Just chop it down, cut off the buds, spin, and put in the net basket for a few days?
> 
> That's a must have imo. If it comes with extra blades, that must mean they break a lot. How often do you have to fix it and how many lbs before a new pack of blades is required?


straight from plant to spinpro. all i do is remove big fans and stems. no hanging or anything. i have a 8 tier net i got from my hydro store to dry the buds. after they are processed i just lay them on the net.
it does come with extra blades but they do not break often. if you trim the stems well the blades will last long. since i changed the first one i havent had to change again. not sure on how many lbs before change.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 22, 2010)

sorry for the hijack bob. now back to his grow


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## Bob Smith (Jan 22, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> sorry for the hijack bob. now back to his grow


Lol, not a hijack at all, my friend 

Anything that can help me or anyone else out is fair game - I'm sure people are tired of my pagelong emails regarding wiring questions 

Anywho, took a good look in the garage for the first time in a few days, and it looks like I might be able to take those clones sooner then I expected, hopefully within the next 5-7 days.

Also took the humidity dome off of the rockwool clones to see how they do (most are rooted, and the ones that aren't are not going to root) - FYI, haven't used any rooting enhancers as of yet, but will for my "real" run - have some powdered shit, but contemplating getting some Clonex.

Also, moved a bunch of the bigger plants down to the fluorescent area to let them get a little more space before they're all choppped into a million different clones and discarded.

Will take pics in a bit, still feeling drained from that interview.

Oh, the big boy ozone generator came today - not even my name on the package, just a number - seems a little overzealous on their part, but I'll take it.

Have some mold issues on a couple of the vegging plants in hydroton - it's a combination of not enough airflow and of throwing un-rooted clones in Rapid Rooters under a 400HPS and letting the algae/mold just take off - hit the reservoir with 1.5mL of H2O2/gallon, so we'll see how that helps out.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 22, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol, not a hijack at all, my friend
> 
> Anything that can help me or anyone else out is fair game - I'm sure people are tired of my pagelong emails regarding wiring questions
> 
> ...


i like clonex. it seems to work real good. but before that i was using root tone. that worked good as well. not sure which one is better.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 22, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> i like clonex. it seems to work real good. but before that i was using root tone. that worked good as well. not sure which one is better.


I've gotten along okay without using anything, but the issue I have is when taking miniature clones (like 1" in total) is that the stems aren't strong enough for me to push them down into the rockwool, so I was wondering if Clonex would help them "stay in contact" with the rockwool, as opposed to almost being suspended in air, which is when they won't root.

Obviously I could take bigger clones, but that's an option not readily available to me yet.


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## laserbrn (Jan 22, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> I've gotten along okay without using anything, but the issue I have is when taking miniature clones (like 1" in total) is that the stems aren't strong enough for me to push them down into the rockwool, so I was wondering if Clonex would help them "stay in contact" with the rockwool, as opposed to almost being suspended in air, which is when they won't root.
> 
> Obviously I could take bigger clones, but that's an option not readily available to me yet.


Find something to help you push that into the rockwool or cut a slit in the side of the rockwool cube, slide the little "miniature clone" into and put a rubber band around the outside of the cube to hold the slit closed. Once it roots you can take the rubber band off and voila you're good to go. The rubber band will usually get all f*ed up by the moisture anyway and you'll be ready to take it off.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 28, 2010)

Haven't updated because there really hasn't been much to speak of - flowering plants all look the same as weeks ago, save for the ones directly under the light, which have started a second growth spurt in the past couple weeks.

Also, sucks to not be able to sample anything because of having to stay clean for possible upcoming drug tests, but my girl's done some sampling for me and all seems well.

Also, if anyone has any clever names for the next journal of 144, I'm all ears (gonna start that one up in a week or two, once the clones fully root).

Anyways, a few points before I post pics:

1) Think I'm gonna flower 36 each of Bubblelicous and the Indica clones under my 400 in a few weeks - since the garage is gonna be totally closed down for a while (guessing the better part of a month), might as well get everything I can out of it now, methinks.

Hell, I might even flower plants under the fluoros on the bottom, and just use that fluffy bud to make hash and kief out of; might as well, right?

2) Since I've decided on #1, need to build some sort of a "Bob's Arc" to keep my genetics alive for the next ~4 months - don't care what they look like or how they're cared for, just don't wanna have to start from seed again once I'm up and running - thinking a simple plywood box with some fluoros and in dirt ("yuck") should do the trick, but I'm open to suggestions.

3) Decided that I'm going with all Super Skunk for this upcoming run of 144 - with a grow like this, everything's gonna have to be fairly precise, which isn't achievable using different genetics with different growth rates; also, the Super Skunk are fucking vigorous, can't wait to flower them out.

4) Emptied out the fllowering rez for the first time a couple of days ago and refilled with tap (there were probably 5 gallons left in the bottom, but not sweating it) - have never before and don't ever again plan on flushing, but figured it couldn't hurt - not sure if I'm imagining it or not, but the smell in the tent seems even stronger now.

5) Last point, and if any mod or anyone like that has an issue with it, I'll certainly take it down - for those who have been helpful in my grow (you know who you are), I've got ~100 clones from last run that I've got no use for and are free to a good home - PM me if interested.

Without further ado, here's some pics........





Some of the extra clones from last run - as you can see, they're all well-rooted.






The 196 Super Skunk clones I took today - holy fuck what a job that was. Used rooting powder this time, and feel pretty good about them. Hoping that when I take the tops off for the first time in about a week that a lot of them will have already rooted.

Figure 10-12 days to root, then veg under fluoros for another 3-5 days to pick out the best 144, then veg for 2-4 days under the 1K - puts me starting flowering right around 2.14.10.






First pick is a bubblelicous clone, second and third are pics of the right side of the veg tent which is an absolute rain forest, and the last pick is for someone wondering if I'll be okay flowering in 4" pots - that NYPD is 2.5' tall and the roots aren't even struggling to come out of the pot.



New ozone generator - I just let the fucker run 24/7, doesn't seem to be doing a spot of bother to me or the plants. Have his little brother running constantly right next to him as well.






Random flower shots, not a lot to see. Still planning on cutting on Sunday, and gonna dry in the tent for ~5 days, methinks. Then cure for a bit and that's that.


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## statik (Jan 28, 2010)

Damn Bob, those girls have packed on a bit havent they? Looking good buddy, all considered. I'm popping over to my grow in just a bit here. Hoping to see some good progress. Wish I was a bit closer, I'd take a few of them cuttings off your hand.


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## rbahadosingh (Jan 28, 2010)

looking good bob.


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## goofygolfer (Jan 28, 2010)

i just reread your entire gj .props for stickin with it. looking nice girls puttin on some wt. you should have a nice harvest .


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## cazador (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob, I see your still using you CO2 tanks and not using the Gen1 yet. If I remember correctly you set it up once and ran through the LP quickly. I think you thought you had a gas leak or something? Is this correct? I am seeing similar things happen. I did not keep track of how long the gen1 ran before running out of fuel and not sure how full the tank was but it seems that it burned up the LP a lot faster than I would have thought. I'm going to have to do some calculations but something isn't adding up here. I thought a tank of LP would last for a month or more. What's wrong here? 

I'll do some math> Lets say the gen-1 burns for 5 min every 20 min that's 25 mins/12h=28.8 times the gen goes on for 5 min which = 2.4h a day that the gen-1 is running. (obviously the room needs to be better seaded and heat better managed to hold onto the CO2 longer.)

The Dept. of Energy says 91,330. The American Gas Association says 91,600*.* BTUs per gallon of LPG
The gen-1 with 4 burners is rated at 11,178 BTUs

91,330BTUs per gallon X 4 gallon tank = 365,320BTUs
365,320BTUs(4 gals LP)/11,178 BTUs(gen-1 output)=32.7hours burn time
32.7hours burn time/2.4 hours a day=13.6 days 

so it looks like a 4 Gallon tank of LP only lasts 13.6 days if burning for 2.4 hours a day.
I guess the room it is running in needs to be sealed up better. Time to look into a A/C unit.


My other observation of the gen-1 is it is HOT. When it runs the flames are blocked by a steal plate and then the metal cover. When the gen-1 turn off it still radiates quite a bit of heat for quite some time. 

Bob, I like your Idea about running the gen-1 outside the room and piping in the CO2. I think you did it because of space but I like the idea. Take air from the room through the gen-1 and back to the room CO2 enriched. Leaving the hot unit outside. Sorry for the ramble but I know you are working towards this as well so I thought we could work it out together.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 29, 2010)

Caz, I'm kinda still working on that, but it's admittedly on the back burner - there's three ways it could go.

1) If and when I expand to an 8x8 tent, I'd find a way for the generator to be in there (which is why I like the extra space inside the tent, as the footprint will only be 6x6). Would have an AC inside the tent as well, so heat wouldn't be that much of a concern, and even if I'm still running off of propane, it should last me for a few weeks to a month on a 20# tank, which is "acceptable" to me.

2) If I get a natural gas line run to the garage, then I'd basically have the exact same setup that you see in the video and the pics - wouldn't be worried about running out of propane, and natural gas is mucho cheaper, so that would work for me, regardless of what size/shape tent I plan to use. This is probably the best option as of this minute.

3) For some reason I don't expand and don't take the time to get a natural gas line run to the garage, then I'd just use the generator setup I have in the pics during the wintertime (added heat is a bonus), and continue to use tanks during the summertime.

But as far as spending a heckuva lot more time trying to figure out where the propane is leaking and/or building a special box for the generator and/or things of that nature, I'm kinda over it.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 29, 2010)

My dispensary is really on my back about getting my product to market, and for a flat $450/ounce price of as much as I get can him, it's kinda hard to turn down.

That being said, I'm chopping tomorrow, and here's the gameplan (just got back from shopping):

1) Empty out the rez, and remove that, the plants, and the tray from the tent (will get some nice pics of the the plants before they're chopped in "normal" light).

2) I bought a 48" by 84" fiberglass screen from home depot, which I'm going to cut down to 48x48 and nail (temporarily, not permanently) to my table stand, which will hold all the trimmed weed and clippings (planning on making hash or something like that).

3) Gonna bump the heat up to 85 and get the RH down as much as I can via the Sentinel, and hopefully dry them within two or three days.

4) Got some "cracker jars" from Walmart for curing them for a week, and then they're going to be delivered on Super Bowl Sunday.

FYI, I found some spring-loaded scissors at Walmart for $12 that look identical to the $30 ones at the hydro store, if anyone's interested.

I'll post the final weight (just subtract four ounces from whatever I say, because I'm gonna lie ) and a post about things I could've/should've done differently, and then I believe this thread's a wrap - again, thanks so much to all the people who helped my dumbass along the way 

I'll post a link to the next one here as well, and hopefully that will be a bit of a more "successful" (yield-wise) grow, although in hindsight, even if I only come out with a few ounces, I consider this grow to be a "success".


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## smokingrubber (Jan 29, 2010)

450 a zip OMG. Now I KNOW you're not in Cali LFAO! I can get $300 a zip or $3200-$3400 a lb. ... I need to drive out and visit you Bob ... see ya in a couple weeks buddy


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## statik (Jan 29, 2010)

Can't wait to see the chop pics Bob. Last pic update I saw they were looking pretty good.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 29, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> 450 a zip OMG. Now I KNOW you're not in Cali LFAO! I can get $300 a zip or $3200-$3400 a lb. ... I need to drive out and visit you Bob ... see ya in a couple weeks buddy


Lol..........I'm just in the real dry part of Cali.............and yeah, pretty stoked to chop - anyone got any guesses? I honestly have no fugging clue........best guess would be 6 ounces (pathetic, I know), but I wouldn't be shocked if I hit like 10 or 12 either.........

Also, anyone have any thoughts/comments about the drying method that I'm planning on?

EDIT: Smoking, if you feel like taking a drive and it's good product, it'll all be presold before you even get here..........it's like that around these parts.


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## Integra21 (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> My dispensary is really on my back about getting my product to market, and for a flat $450/ounce price of as much as I get can him, it's kinda hard to turn down.
> 
> That being said, I'm chopping tomorrow, and here's the gameplan (just got back from shopping):
> 
> ...


Sounds like a good deal. Are they done? Hows the trichs looking. I wouldnt want to see them turn you down because it was cut premature. On a side note, you sound kinda defeated bob. What happened? I cant see what you see, but the girls look like they are doing pretty good. As long as you end up with some pretty good herb, doesnt really matter what didnt go right along the way, you just keep doing what you're doing and make whatever improvements you can along the way. Looking forward to seeing the new big round of small guys. Would love to grab some clones, but I dont think they'd make it through shipping with the temps around here and you're definetly too far to go pick them up. But that is a vary generous offer. Hopefully they find a good home.


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## Integra21 (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol..........I'm just in the real dry part of Cali.............and yeah, pretty stoked to chop - anyone got any guesses? I honestly have no fugging clue........best guess would be 6 ounces (pathetic, I know), but I wouldn't be shocked if I hit like 10 or 12 either.........
> 
> Also, anyone have any thoughts/comments about the drying method that I'm planning on?
> 
> EDIT: Smoking, if you feel like taking a drive and it's good product, it'll all be presold before you even get here..........it's like that around these parts.


only concern is that rush drying will greatly reduce the quality of the herb. Doesnt give enough time for the chlorophyll to properly break down and will make the smoke harsher.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 29, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Sounds like a good deal. Are they done? Hows the trichs looking. I wouldnt want to see them turn you down because it was cut premature. On a side note, you sound kinda defeated bob. What happened? I cant see what you see, but the girls look like they are doing pretty good. As long as you end up with some pretty good herb, doesnt really matter what didnt go right along the way, you just keep doing what you're doing and make whatever improvements you can along the way. Looking forward to seeing the new big round of small guys. Would love to grab some clones, but I dont think they'd make it through shipping with the temps around here and you're definetly too far to go pick them up. But that is a vary generous offer. Hopefully they find a good home.


I tried using one of those Radio Shack thingies ten years ago and it just gave me a headache, and I haven't messed with it since - I just go by hairs, and 70-90% of them are brown, which to me indicates that it's time to chop (save for the diesel, which could certainly use another week, but no one's gonna be able to tell anyways).

Sorry if I sounded defeated, certainly wasn't my intention - even tried to qualify that I'll be pleased with whatever I end up getting; just know it could've been more.

But the overwhelming feeling is pleased that this journey is coming to an end, and hopefully I've learned enough to make the next one even better.

No regrets at all - gotta learn from our mistakes


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## Bob Smith (Jan 29, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> only concern is that rush drying will greatly reduce the quality of the herb. Doesnt give enough time for the chlorophyll to properly break down and will make the smoke harsher.


I'll start this off with "I'm no expert", but everything I read (mainly Al B. Fuct, who I hold in the HIGHEST regard) by people I respect says that drying times play no effect on the quality of herb.

Check out Al B. Fuct's Bud Dryer thread, it's pretty cool (and something I'll have to make should I ever go "really" perpetual).

Okay, time to go workout before I pick my lady up - trying to lose forty pounds (of fat, and replace 20 with muscle) this year - somehow (eating too much and not working out enough) I've turned into a flabby mess.


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## Integra21 (Jan 29, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> I tried using one of those Radio Shack thingies ten years ago and it just gave me a headache, and I haven't messed with it since - I just go by hairs, and 70-90% of them are brown, which to me indicates that it's time to chop (save for the diesel, which could certainly use another week, but no one's gonna be able to tell anyways).
> 
> Sorry if I sounded defeated, certainly wasn't my intention - even tried to qualify that I'll be pleased with whatever I end up getting; just know it could've been more.
> 
> ...


Good, didnt want to see one of the good guys losing his drive. Forgot to mention, my co2 gen hasnt been a dream either. Having 2 major problems. I dont know what Kind of air leak I have, but the minigen struggles to keep my ppms above 1400 even though it shouldnt, and I am getting major condensation on the water lines and inside the unit from the tap water being so cold. I am thinking of just hooking it up to a 5 gal bucket with my inline pump, and I'm hoping that the ppm problem is from the tank being out in the garage and beeing freezing cold. Which if it is like any other compressed gas, greatly effects pressure and might not be getting the full output from the generator. On the upside though, it is a very small burner and runs pretty much nonstop during lights on, but havent finished off the tank after 5 days. If you were still considering Hydrogen, I would go with the regular adjustable unit, and cool it with a res. Any other info you'd like about mine, just ask.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 29, 2010)

Sweet info on the Hydrogen. You're the first I know of having it. How much heat does it produce? Could it be installed directly inside the tent (on a wood wall) without burning it down? Im considering one for my remodel ... open loop vs closed loop debate continues.


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## Integra21 (Jan 29, 2010)

OK, First, I apologize bob for this mini hijack, but I'm sure you will like the info to, so here we go.

Here is My Hydrogen MiniGen. You can see I used their drian to waste valve. I have it wall mounted and it produces very little heat. I can place my hand directly on the sides or top and it just feels warm. The Mini is ment for rooms smaller than 10x10, and mine defietly qualifys, but it struggles to keep my ppms at 1500. The weird thing is, if I go in the room, my breathing easily gets it above 1500ppm and the unit shuts off. As soon as I leave, it turns back on and bounces between 1300-1450ppm. As stated above, I am hoping this is from the propane tank being at about 10-20F. As far as the cooling, I think they list higher than nessasary cooling for safety sake. With my drain to waste, I have the flow adjusted down to barely above a ro trickle and it keeps it ice cold. But since it is so cold, condensation forms in the unit itself, and if any damage is caused by this, the packaging staes this voids the warranty. I am planning on just using a 5 gal bucket for cooling when I get a chance and will post how well this works. It will be just a bucket with no chiller, but I'm fairly confiident it will get the job done no problem. If you are using the full size and not the mini, you may need a larger res or a chiller, but Im just guessing since I have never used it. Any other questions feel free to ask. Its probly better if you ask in my journal so I'm not putting all of this info in Bobs. The Link is in the sig.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 30, 2010)

This is off of two NYPD so far:





Wonder if I may get a little more than I'd thunk.


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## smokingrubber (Jan 30, 2010)

Hard to tell from here, but it doesn't look completely ripe to me. Hold some up in the sunlight and take the picture please.


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## Integra21 (Jan 30, 2010)

here's hoping for you. Maybe a hidden pond in there.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 30, 2010)

Lol, a pound's a bit of a stretch, but it'd be cool with me.

Here they are just about done; need to run to Walmart tomorrow and get the smaller spring-loaded clippers for another hour of manicuring on them for some leftover leaf matter.

Realize that the NYPDs could've had another week+, but I'm not too worried about it.

Currently 74F (set for 84F, but the heater's having trouble with how cold the garage is right now - 47F) and 30% RH, which will be closer to 25% when the temps get up to 84F.

Shooting for them to be almost crispy by Tuesday night, and then burp them for a couple days, and they'll (hopefully) be totally dried by Thursday/Friday - still think 6ozs. is a pretty good guess (lotsa decent-sized buds in the trim pile in addition).

From left to right, bagseed, then bubblelicous, then NYPD.

EDIT: Also going to pick out the fan leaves and stems from the trimming pile tomorrow; was simply too lazy tonight.


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## hollywood420 (Jan 31, 2010)

very nice grow... how many do you have left to harvest?  +rep if i havent already....
edit: yup already gave you rep....


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## Bob Smith (Jan 31, 2010)

Zero left to harvest; there were 19 plants in total, and three of them (one NYPD and two bagseeds) weren't even worth trimming, so they just got thrown into the hash/kief pile.

So what you see is 16 plants - two bubblelicous, two NYPD, and twelve bagseed - very weak yield, but I'm very, very, very optimistic about my next run 

Gonna watch SeeMoreBuds video (of the 300 plants in 2" netpots) a few more times to get a feel for things before I get started.

Can't wait, think this grow could be really kickass.


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## hollywood420 (Jan 31, 2010)

sweet will follow and learn.. still new to indoor flowering...hey ?... have you grown grandaddy purp? or do you just know the flower time?


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## cazador (Jan 31, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Zero left to harvest; --- I'm very, very, very optimistic about my next run
> 
> Gonna watch SeeMoreBuds video (of the 300 plants in 2" netpots) a few more times to get a feel for things before I get started.
> 
> Can't wait, think this grow could be really kickass.


I'm sure it will. Looking forward to being part of it, watching and helping out if I can. congrats on the harvest. Looks great.


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## goofygolfer (Jan 31, 2010)

sweet bob congrats on the harvest. any harvest is better that none at all .i think mj growing has a learning curve just like anything else and each secussive grow will be better and better . when you get it all dialed in o m g going to be a awesome yeilds . keep the faith bro


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Bob, check out this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uRrMvfucY
> 
> They set up a HYDROgen generator and 6k watts in a trade-show tent. No AC. This mf is a plumber for sure! He's got some really good ideas in there!


Finally got around to watching that video, and I think I might be changing my tune on water chillers.

Although a mini-split is cool, it's:

1) Not 100% secure, as her dad (who's over a decent amount) would eventually see the compressor outside and ask what it's for - I've got no good answer.

2) The installation and all that would be costly and probably have some issues associated with it (long run from the compressor to the unit, etc. - nothing ever goes right, so I'd imagine there'd be some issues with it).

3) Not portable when I move, and as I'm not married, that's certainly a concern (don't wanna drop $3K on something and then my girl kicks me out, and I can't take it with me).

So, although that video is super cool and it'd be nice to have that setup, that's not what I'd be using it for (totally).

Basicallly, I'd be using that as a replacement AC for the entire garage - have ~200 gallon reservoir (anyone know WTF to get one of those? Or if that size would be sufficient?) kept as cold as I can (55F, maybe?), and two or three fans running ice boxes around the room to keep it cool.

Anyone have any clue if that would work? Looking at using a chiller like the link below; 2HP is supposed to be equivalent to 24000BTU, which should be plenty of cooling for my 10'X20' garage, even with its vaulted ceilings and when it hits 100F outside.

Might setup a HydroGen generator in the tent at some point, and would probably also use an inline fan and an icebox to run cooled air into the tent when needed, but a manifold and all the other shit he has in there seems a little above my pay grade (would most likely just air-cool the lights in a normal fashion).

Just really looking for an effective and HIDDEN method to keep the garage as cool as I want, and this seems like it might be it.

Okay people, now please poke some holes in my idea.

http://www.aquacave.com/2-hp-arctica-commercial-brseries-titanium-aquarium-brchiller-230v-by-jbj-1863.html

Also, anyone know if a chiller needs to be exhausted somewhere? Does it produce hot air?

If this idea "works", then my list of things to do to the garage is as follows:

1) Get a sink setup (not sure how feasible this is, as there's no drain pipes close by through the walls, so I'd assume he'd have to come up through the ground?) Really have no clue if this is doable or not, but it'd make my life 10X easier (and would bring R/O water back into the mix).

2) Get one of the circuits in the garage changed to run 240V - I could run the chiller and 2 600s off one circuit, leaving me 40 amps of 120V to run everything else.

3) Get a natural gas line run to the garage - never have to fill up a propane or CO2 tank again 

EDIT: apologies and thanks to both Rbaha and Smoking for dismissing the idea without fully understanding how they worked, and also for them staying on me about it - however, if this doesn't work, I totally take back those apologies


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

So it looks like water chillers produce heat, so I guess that idea got shot to shit, huh?

Fuck............someone please tell me I'm wrong and that the heat would be negligible compared to the cooling power they provide.


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## cazador (Feb 1, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Basicallly, I'd be using that as a replacement AC for the entire garage - have ~200 gallon reservoir (anyone know WTF to get one of those? Or if that size would be sufficient?) kept as cold as I can (55F, maybe?), and two or three fans running ice boxes around the room to keep it cool.
> 
> Anyone have any clue if that would work? Looking at using a chiller like the link below; 2HP is supposed to be equivalent to 24000BTU, which should be plenty of cooling for my 10'X20' garage, even with its vaulted ceilings and when it hits 100F outside.
> 
> ...


Bob, I can get any size water storage tank here in my town but shipping something that size (200gal) is expensive and noticeable. Have you thought of rain barrels? There are many places online that will ship them for free and they are strong. Chain 4 together and you have 200 -240 gallons of water storage. I have seen it done many times and they work well. Just an idea Also, they can be configured many ways to accommodate the available space.

I don't know if a chiller needs to be exhausted but most anything that produces cooling creates heat too.

YES, a sink. I never knew how much I needed a sink until I had one in a G room. It makes things SO much nicer. I have my drain just go through the wall and into a french drain I created. I say try to get the sink in there. I know you'll be happy you did. I didn't know how much until I had one.

we are here when you are ready to play with the power 240V.

Is your garage insulated well? How many ice boxes are you thinking of using?


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## cazador (Feb 1, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> So it looks like water chillers produce heat, so I guess that idea got shot to shit, huh?
> 
> Fuck............someone please tell me I'm wrong and that the heat would be negligible compared to the cooling power they provide.


I don't see how it would. Gotta get rid of the heat separately as it is counterintuitive to try to waste cooling on trying to overcome the heat produced.

edit - Bob have you thought of a Dual Hose Portable Air Conditioner? it's like the split system but you pipe out the heat. and you can take it with you


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

cazador said:


> Bob, I can get any size water storage tank here in my town but shipping something that size (200gal) is expensive and noticeable. Have you thought of rain barrels? There are many places online that will ship them for free and they are strong. Chain 4 together and you have 200 -240 gallons of water storage. I have seen it done many times and they work well. Just an idea Also, they can be configured many ways to accommodate the available space.
> 
> I don't know if a chiller needs to be exhausted but most anything that produces cooling creates heat too.
> 
> ...


Yeah, online I found something like this:

http://www.tank-depot.com/product.aspx?id=123

That would work, methinks...........but I'm still kinda unsure about the heat produced - I mean, there's obviously heat produced from it, but it's made for aquariums, so how much heat could it be producing, as it's designed to be operated indoors?

I'm sure I'm 100% wrong, but I do have the sneaking suspicion that the heat produced would be massively offset by the cooling power of it - I mean, (and this is probably assuming 72F starting ambient temps, but regardless) the fucker is designed to keep a 550 gallon aquarium at 59F - if I could keep 200 gallons at 59F, that'd be plenty of coldness to keep my garage cool with about 3-4 6" heat exchangers hooked up to inline fans, no?

I mean, I think it'd have to be...........doing some research, and RIU's got dick when it comes to searching about chillers - gonna check out JACKMAYOFFER's grow (Rbaha gave me the link), as he supposedly does a lot with chillers.

BTW, my garage is fully insulated (save for the door, obviously), so I've got that going for me, at least.

And as far as a dual hose AC, I've looked at them, but I can't have anything coming out of the lone window in the garage (for security reasons), and they don't seem to work well with intake temps >90F.

Also have that question about the chiller - if for some reason the chiller puts off more heat then it cools, and I decide to cool my tents with it and allow the rest of the garage to stay really hot, would the chiller still work? With temps >100F?

So many questions............


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## skinnyone (Feb 1, 2010)

Bob how is the NYPD? I just started my beans a few days ago


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

skinnyone said:


> Bob how is the NYPD? I just started my beans a few days ago


Not sure, haven't smoked it - I harvested about 7-10 days early, and it was actually a pretty decent yielder for how much shit I put them through.

Pics are above in post #882 (fuck is this journal long), but I'd guess there's anywhere from 1-2 ounces off of the two plants I harvested.

Haven't noticed the real "biting" diesel smell to it yet, but there is some "lemony" fumes coming off of it.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 1, 2010)

I'm going to do some serious research on this chiller issue Bob. I just finalized an agreement with my friend to design and build a new grow room in a 2 car garage. He's moving in in 2 weeks, and I want to build it pretty soon. (It's hard to believe, but he rented the fukn house RIGHT next door to me lol). I've got 2 weeks to chew on what I want to do, but I've got about 12-15k budget. I was planning on using a chiller too so we've got some things to figure out.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 1, 2010)

You shouldn't need THAT much cooling Bob. Can you cycle the hood air through the attic? Suck from the attic and exhaust back to the attic. That would take care of a lort of heat and you wouldn't need to filter it. Then you would only need to cool the generator and the room. A 1/2hp chiller should handle a 100gal tall corner reservior easily. The amount of heat it produces should be small and not a concern. I am going to see if I can find one in operation so I can check it out first-hand. I don't think we have enough heat to warrant a $3k chiller yet.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

Yeah, that's kinda what I was thinking in regards to the heat produced - for the amount of cooling produced, it'd be kinda negligible, no?

And the attic's not really possible, as that air is gonne be 110F as well, so that's out (it's almost impossible to get to as well).

And I could probably get by with a smaller chiller, but I'd prefer something oversized that can easily handle the load - figure if I can keep a 200 gallon reservoir at 50F, there should be ZERO issues with keeping the garage plenty cool, even with the added heat from the chiller.

Two 16" oscillating fans, each fed by two 6" fans with heat exchangers (for a total of four heat exchangers) should be able to easily keep it cool, assuming the air would be coming out at 55-60F (after being cooled). Would have another couple of heat exchangers cooling random things as well, but I'd think that a 200gallon reservoir could handle a bunch of exchangers.

The best part about this would be that it'd be fully self contained, which is PRICELESS.

EDIT: almost done that JACKMAYOFFER journal, and when I get to the end, I'm gonna ask him his thoughts - he's running 8 1Ks in a 15x10 room with a 24000BTU AC and a 2HP chiller.

DOUBLE EDIT: made sure to read the whole journal just to make sure the question hadn't been asked and answered already, and then got to the last page and he's left the site for THCFARMER.com.

Just my luck; BTW, there are some not-so-kind words regarding the HydroGen in that journal from a lot of people.

TRIPLE EDIT: started a thread about it to see if anyone else can help us out.......
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/298576-chiller-lieu-air-conditioning.html#post3733522

On another note, emailed SeeMoreBuds for some advice on the next grow and am still waiting on a reply - he tried 300 in a 4x6 space and had to pull 100 of them, but it looks like he flowered at like 8-10", so I'm figuring more like 5-6" will be a good height. I asked what height he would recommend (all else equal), so we'll see what he says.


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## statik (Feb 1, 2010)

As long as you keep the vents on the chiller pointing away from your tent you should be fine Bob. I talked to some people @ Hydro Innovations and they pretty much told me as long as I can keep my chiller about 12 feet from my tent (all in a bedroom) it should be fine. If you keep the temps in the water low, it will pull the heat from the chiller as well.

200 gallons res? I am not sure you need THAT much. Why dont you do what I did and write to Hydro Innovations? They answered all my questions in no time:

[email protected]

Glad to see you are leaning towards water cooling. The more I look at it, it just makes a lot of sense.

Also, check Craigslist for Barrels Bob, found some really nice top locking ones myself.


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## cazador (Feb 1, 2010)

Guys, this is great stuff. I'm all ears, as I'm almost in-line with what you are all doing at the moment.
this is the short of where I'm at. (guess I should start my own journal. ).
1st grow in new space. still in the design process, working out the kinks. 32 days 12/12.
1 - 12'x6' flower room, 3-1000w HPS, 6" in-line air cooled (outside air return to outside),Sentinel chhc-1 and Sentinel MDT-1, CAP MLC-4X High Power Relay, 3- 4'x4' flood trays. 40 pint dehumidifier, CAP gen1e 4 burner CO2 generator, 3 oscillating fans, 1500w heater, 2 - 6" in-line exhaust fans(lights and room)... I'll stop here.

so I'm at the point I want to "seal" the room or deal with the heat to better hold on to CO2.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

statik said:


> As long as you keep the vents on the chiller pointing away from your tent you should be fine Bob. I talked to some people @ Hydro Innovations and they pretty much told me as long as I can keep my chiller about 12 feet from my tent (all in a bedroom) it should be fine. If you keep the temps in the water low, it will pull the heat from the chiller as well.
> 
> 200 gallons res? I am not sure you need THAT much. Why dont you do what I did and write to Hydro Innovations? They answered all my questions in no time:
> 
> ...


Statik, my man - since you're the first person I've come across who uses a chiller, prepare to have your brain picked.

What size is your chiller? What size is your rez? What temp do you keep the rez at, and how easily can the chiller handle it? How much heat (in your professional opinion) would you say the chiller puts off?

Also in your professional opinion (best guess), what size chiller and reservoir would I need to keep that area cool?

Remember, this is the only cooling - no AC of any sort, so when it's 100F outside, the only thing keeping it 70F in the garage will be some Ice Boxes and some fans - is this realistic??

And Cazador, it seems that we're all shooting for the same thing - teamwork's a lovely thing 

I'll let you guys know what HI comes back with in response to my email.


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## statik (Feb 1, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Statik, my man - since you're the first person I've come across who uses a chiller, prepare to have your brain picked.
> 
> What size is your chiller? What size is your rez? What temp do you keep the rez at, and how easily can the chiller handle it? How much heat (in your professional opinion) would you say the chiller puts off?
> 
> ...


Actually I am not using the chiller just yet. I bought it ahead of summer, thinking ahead and all.

I am going to run through your Q's as best as possible, then tell you what my little test showed.

1. I am only running 1 600w light. So I have a 1/4 HP chiller.

2. I have been told this chiller can handle a tank (or res) up to over 100 gallons. I will be using a 25 gal or so.

3. You will want to start the chiller running before lights (or heat) becomes an issue. That way you have cold air pumping before heat has a chance to even build up.

I want to keep my res at about 55 - 60 degrees. The settings go all the way down to 32 degrees.

4. Chiller seemed to handle the heat decently actually (explain more in a bit).

5. It does produce some heat, I locked it running in my (closed) bathroom for about 30 minutes and it brought air temps up about 10 - 15 degrees. Keep in mind this is like a 10x5 room Bob, and no Ice Box running either.

If I have the door open and the chiller running, it doesnt even warm up my apartment...which is small.

6. I think that a 2 HP may be a little large, but wait to see what HI has to say. I think maybe a 100 gallon res would do it Bob, if you have a 2 HP chiller and kick it on early like I mentioned...doubt youd have heat issues at all.

7. Yes, Realistic IMO. If you can get the temps coming out of your Ice Box's even to 70 degrees you are cooling the air right? You did watch the Ice Box video yes? He shows you 58 degree air coming out one of the Ice Box's. I think he is using a 5 HP chiller across six 1k watters. I think the res is like 50 gal? Dont quote me on that though! Air temps = 58 degrees out the Ice Box.

Now, when I got my little 1/4 HP aquarium chiller I took it straight into the bathroom. Plugged all my hoses etc in, and then filled up the tub with the hottest water I would get.

I think when i kicked the chiller on it said the temps in the water were like 94 degrees. I ran the chiller for about 2 hours and the water got down to about 40 degrees...and this was with the chiller pushing its own heat into the room as well.

As far as the heat production of the chiller, mine is smaller..so it prolly wont push as much heat out as a 2 HP. Then again, mine wont chill as quickly as yours either.

I am pretty sure this is an option for you Bob. It's just figuring whats what exactly.

Hope that helps some at least...and if not...screw you! 

J/K 

EDIT: Come to think about it, maybe a 2 HP is about right.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

statik said:


> Actually I am not using the chiller just yet. I bought it ahead of summer, thinking ahead and all.
> 
> I am going to run through your Q's as best as possible, then tell you what my little test showed.
> 
> ...


Thanks man, really appreciate it kiss-ass

Got an answer from HI, it's in the other thread I started (link is above) - sounds like the chiller needs to be outside...........so we're back to square one (kinda).

If I could find a good way to disguise it it may be an option, but a chiller's even shadier then a split AC, IMO.

Right now, back on the split AC kick.

Fudge, I was really into that idea for a minute.


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## statik (Feb 1, 2010)

So you have no way of venting the Chillers air out of the garage? No vents in the ceiling...nothing...whatever...tra la la?

The chiller DOES (at least the chillking) kind of resemble an outside A/C unit. The garage is supposed to be a "man cave." Right? So you are moving out of the stone age air cooled A/C...and decided to do things right and water chill your cave..lmao. Shooting in the dark now...I know.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

statik said:


> So you have no way of venting the Chillers air out of the garage? No vents in the ceiling...nothing...whatever...tra la la?


I'm gonna take another hard look in a bit inside the garage for options, but if there are vents, I'd just get a big portable AC, methinks.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 1, 2010)

Can you buy a small outdoor shed and place it against the building? Then you can run the water lines into it from the back without anyone seeing. Keep it locked.

Side bar: I bought my niece the greatest gift ever when she was about 5. I got her a rock tumbler. My sister and brother-in-law fukn hated me for years after that. Its an electric tumbling barrel thats full of rocks and it has to run for about a month straight! (BrotherIL duct taped it into a styrofoam ice-chest) If you were into polished rocks, it wouldn't be uncommon for you to want the tumbler outside in a shed  Perfect cover story and a polisher is cheap. Rocks are even cheaper


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## Bob Smith (Feb 1, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Can you buy a small outdoor shed and place it against the building? Then you can run the water lines into it from the back without anyone seeing. Keep it locked.
> 
> Side bar: I bought my niece the greatest gift ever when she was about 5. I got her a rock tumbler. My sister and brother-in-law fukn hated me for years after that. Its an electric tumbling barrel thats full of rocks and it has to run for about a month straight! (BrotherIL duct taped it into a styrofoam ice-chest) If you were into polished rocks, it wouldn't be uncommon for you to want the tumbler outside in a shed  Perfect cover story and a polisher is cheap. Rocks are even cheaper


Yeah, didn't go out in the garage (lazy), but I think I'm gonna go with the original plan and just get a mini-split.

It is what it is - although not 100% stealthy, with the outdoor unit forty feet from the garage, it's kinda stealthy - could lie and say it's supplemental AC for my central air.

Also, can get a mini-split fully installed (I'm guessing) for $1500; the chiller/icebox system was looking like $4-$5K when it was all said and done.

Still going to try to use a chiller instead of a portable AC inside of my flower tent, though - gonna be brainstorming on that.


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## Integra21 (Feb 2, 2010)

I dont know if you have a utility room or some room people generally dont go into that shares a wall with your garage, but If you do, you might be able to put the chiller in there and just run a couple of lines through the garage. And realistically, you only have to be able to get the temps down to about 80 with the chiller, since you plant on running co2 and are going to be shooting for the 83-85 range. being able to get down to 80 will keep the plants happy enough if the co2 fails. Just something else to think about.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 2, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> I dont know if you have a utility room or some room people generally dont go into that shares a wall with your garage, but If you do, you might be able to put the chiller in there and just run a couple of lines through the garage. And realistically, you only have to be able to get the temps down to about 80 with the chiller, since you plant on running co2 and are going to be shooting for the 83-85 range. being able to get down to 80 will keep the plants happy enough if the co2 fails. Just something else to think about.


Yeah, unfortunately there's really nothing like that available - garage only shares one wall, and that's with the back of my fridge and stove (which should be good for natural gas, but that's about it).

Honestly just gonna do the mini-split - it made sense at first, and still does - whereas I fell in love with the idea of the chiller yesterday, I can't be blowing whole days on setup "thoughts" when I've actually got stuff to do.

Gonna get the mini-split, a natural gas line run, and (hopefully, although I don't know how realistic it is) a sink put in there.

Once I've got the basics in there, then I can start thinking of what else to do - definitely still planning on running a chilled reservoir inside of the tent to cool the lights and possibly a HydroGen.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 2, 2010)

So, put the harvested plants into jars last night, and burped them for about ten minutes this morning - alll's well on that front.

On the clone side, about 1/2 are showing some rootage (defined as giving me good resistance when I tug on them), so that's good - shooting to take the humidity domes off in a couple of days for vegging, and then veg for a few days under my 1K in the flowering tent.

Sprayed them with a solution of weak nutes and that 3-in-1 fungicide/miticide/insecticide spray that I have, as there were some that were yellowing - we'll see how that goes.

All in all I'm pleased, as the clones are marginally ahead of schedule, and I still might hit my target 12/12 date of Valentine's Day.

Still awaiting a reply from SeeMore about what height he thinks I should flower at, but I'm guessing from 5-6" would be good - anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## smokingrubber (Feb 2, 2010)

"tugging" on the babies is not allowed! WTF? You break it, you buy it! LOL.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 2, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> "tugging" on the babies is not allowed! WTF? You break it, you buy it! LOL.


You're 100% correct; I shoulnd't do it, but there's no other way to check if they're rooting at all, so I give a gentle pull on them - gonna try to not touch them for another five days and see what happens.

The best way is probably just wait until they start showing some good new growth, so hopefully in five days that'll be evident.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 2, 2010)

Since I'm doing this grow as a pretty organized and uniform (that's the plan, anyways) grow of 144, I was going to try to run an experiment (I'm actually planning this for all of my future grows, until everything I've wanted to try has been done).

That being said, trying to figure out what to "test" this grow - nutes aren't an option until I get my new setup with separate reservoirs, but other things are.

So far the candidates are:

1) Lollipopping 72 and leaving 72 au natural - pretty sure I know how this one will work out, but would be willing to give it a shot

2) Foliar feeding 72 in addition to the flooding feedings

If anyone has anything else that they'd like to be tested, lemme know and maybe that'll be what gets tested.


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## jjfoo (Feb 3, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Clones taken yesterday  I hate Rapid Rooters because the SOBs can barely stand by themselves.


If you put the wide side down it will balance better than putting the narrow side down.


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## DaGambler (Feb 4, 2010)

i also got pretty excited watching those seemorebuds videos, bob. the way he lays it out ... x number of plants yeilded x amount of buds .... x more number of plants yielded x more amount of buds ...

but like you said, he took 300 clones on the most crowded group ... and some of that was time wasted 'cuz 100 of them died from being crowded out. i ran about 98 plants for one run... then doubled up and ran 2 per pot with around 200 plants... then 3 per pot and had around 300 plants going... then realized that numbers aren't all they are cracked up to be. 

now i run 48 plants in that same area and intend to keep doing so. this also keeps me below the magic number of '99' even when you include the 48 clones.

If you vedge for even a week longer (rather than going from clone straight to flower) you can cut ur plant numbers in half while still maintaining a SOG. Another week after that and you can cut ur plant numbers in half again. So, after this run at least, i hope that you'll also be willing to experiment with running less plants. Keep ur uncle sam happy.
.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 4, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> i also got pretty excited watching those seemorebuds videos, bob. the way he lays it out ... x number of plants yeilded x amount of buds .... x more number of plants yielded x more amount of buds ...
> 
> but like you said, he took 300 clones on the most crowded group ... and some of that was time wasted 'cuz 100 of them died from being crowded out. i ran about 98 plants for one run... then doubled up and ran 2 per pot with around 200 plants... then 3 per pot and had around 300 plants going... then realized that numbers aren't all they are cracked up to be.
> 
> ...


Yeah, that's the one downside to what I like to do, unfortunately - in regards to the plant numbers, I'm gonna start with just about what SMB finished with.

And yeah, this 9/sf thing is just a one-time novelty grow, IMO - probably go back to 4/sf if not less for my grow after this one (hopefully starting sometime in mid-May, with all the additions that I was able to get for my garage like AC, sink, etc.).

After that I've got some CRAZY shit planned out (but it's a secret , for now) that's kept me up for three days straight.

BTW, will have a final yield number tomorrow (for anyone looking for a nice laugh )


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## statik (Feb 4, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, that's the one downside to what I like to do, unfortunately - in regards to the plant numbers, I'm gonna start with just about what SMB finished with.
> 
> And yeah, this 9/sf thing is just a one-time novelty grow, IMO - probably go back to 4/sf if not less for my grow after this one (hopefully starting sometime in mid-May, with all the additions that I was able to get for my garage like AC, sink, etc.).
> 
> ...


Bleh, cant be that BAD of a yied can it Bob? I'll only laugh if I get more than you with my little 600w and my Co2 boost bucket (highly doubt that will happen). 

So when does the new journal start buddy?


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## Bob Smith (Feb 4, 2010)

statik said:


> Bleh, cant be that BAD of a yied can it Bob? I'll only laugh if I get more than you with my little 600w and my Co2 boost bucket (highly doubt that will happen).
> 
> So when does the new journal start buddy?


Statik, I'll bet you $5K right now that you beat my yield, and if you don't double it, then you've probably messed up pretty good 

But, not too worried about it (as you'll see below, all of the issues are fairly easily fixable) - will have a summary post sometime in the next couple of days (started typing and just decided to do it now, as I've been rambling pretty good), but the obvious yield-killer was the height issue.

Also think that the air flow could've been better - one 12" oscillating fan wasn't sufficient for the size of those plants, but I've got four fans getting delivered before the next run 

Gonna have two 12" in the tent now, diagonallly across from each other - this should be plenty of airflow, especially because now there will actually be some distance from the lights to the plant canopy.

Also hanging my dehumidifier from the "rafters" of the tent, so it'll share the same air space as the actual plants - should be able to get my humidity way, way low with that, methinks.

Biggest Issues (in order of magnitude):

1) Height/canopy management - no need to rehash what the issues were, but this just fucking killed me - the lack of being able to rotate plants made three of them not even worth trimming because the buds were so airy, and another several where I probably only got 4-8 grams off of.

2) Poor clones - took as many clones as I could, and unfortunately a lot of them weren't really "up to snuff", in terms of stem thickness or health. Need quality clones to get a quality yield. 

3) Heat during veg time - had some high temps around these parts in November when I was vegging, and with no AC in the garage, I was pretty helpless to do anything about it - that expanded node spacing certainly hurt me by forcing me to trim more lower growth, leaving smaller top colas (without the stretching they would've been "connected" and I could've gotten 10-12" colas, as opposed to 6" colas I got, IMHO).

4) Not changing my reservoir for three months - although I have no idea what magnitude this might've played in my pitiful harvest, I'd be shocked if this didn't cost me a couple of ounces (prolly more). A subset of this would be not calibrating my pH meter for a while, and being off by .5 for a few weeks, which led to some nute lockout/uptake issues.

5) Being lazy the first couple of weeks of flower and not rotating the plants - this would've helped me to greatly mitigate the height issues, as the plants that were sitting directly under the light for the first two weeks (when I didn't touch them at all) obviously grew much taller then their sisters on the outskirts.

So, those are my "Top Five", as I see it right now - if I think of anything else or the order changes for some reason, I'll come back and edit this post.

BTW, the good news about all five of them is that they're all pretty easily fixable 

We'll see what I can do with this next run 

BTW, was going to try to keep it a secret, but that's just not gonna work - long story short, planning on one more harvest in the 4x4 tent after all the upgrades take place (should harvest somewhere around mid July and my test is done in early June).

That leaves me about a month and a half of planning/building to get one of these setup:

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical.html

It's just a mathematically more efficient way to grow - only thing is, I'm gonna upsize it and put either 2 1Ks in there or 3 600s (if not 3000 watts, in which case the dimensions and plant numbers would basically mirror the Coliseum).

Was at Home Depot and Lowes today for an hour just looking at PVC parts and brainstorming.

Figure that he gets 2.1G/W, so even if I can only get 1.25G/W off of it (although I'd like to think I could do better once dialed in, but there's clearly a point of diminishing returns with adding more lights - that could be somewhat mitigated by my higher plant counts), then I'd still be pulling 5.5 pounds off of 2 1Ks.

I'd be okay with that 

Rough plan is to make the diameter larger and have many more plant sites - prolly about 200, although I've been going back and forth with that in my head.

Definitely going with the flooded tube design though for its simplicity - no drip or aero or anything like that to get clogged, etc.

Enough rambling, time to do some more brainstorming.

FYI, (in theory) it'll be MUCH cheaper to set this up then it would be to buy four Magnum XXXls, four 3x3 trays, four 3x3 tray inserts, etc.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 4, 2010)

I have two oscillating fans on opposite sides of my tent. No matter what I did, it seemed like the fans were always facing right at each other. I kept trying to unplug one to get it to run opposing cycles. I need the air to circulate, not just meet in the middle.

I finnaly figured out that one fan has to be running faster than the other. That kept the wind swirling instead of just pushing back and forth. It seems to be pimp now. Just my .02.

Now I'll read the rest of your post above sorry.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 4, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> I have two oscillating fans on opposite sides of my tent. No matter what I did, it seemed like the fans were always facing right at each other. I kept trying to unplug one to get it to run opposing cycles. I need the air to circulate, not just meet in the middle.
> 
> I finnaly figured out that one fan has to be running faster than the other. That kept the wind swirling instead of just pushing back and forth. It seems to be pimp now. Just my .02.
> 
> Now I'll read the rest of your post above sorry.


Makes sense, thanks - maybe I'll just run one fan at "3" and one at "1", or something like that - need to get the tent setup sooner rather then later, been kinda dragging my feet on that.

For anyone interested, crunched some numbers regarding horizontal vs. vertical, and they're below:

The Coliseum Growing System is 67" wide by 93" tall.

Using those dimensions for a flat grow (comes to 43.3 square feet), and using a baseline watts/square foot of 62.5 (2 1Ks covering an 8x4 area), it would require 2700 watts to light that footprint. For simplicity's sake, we'll call it 45 feet and 3000 watts, just to work with round numbers.

Still with me? Good.....

So, the full-sized Coliseum is designed to be operated with 3000 watts.

Using that same footprint, the Coliseum has an effective growing square footage of 185 square feet, or more then 4X as much as a horizontal garden (I crunched these numbers myself, but the formula for the surface area of a cyllinder is [(2*pi*r^2)+(2*pi*r*h)] for anyone who'd like to double-check me).

So, instead of a 7x7 footprint (round numbers, the equivalent of 45 square feet), that 3000 watts is now effectively covering a 14x14 footprint!!!

And if anything, the canopy management is easier with a vertical, because EVERY plant is equidistant from the light source, and generally closer to the light source then they would be in a flat garden.

Add in the fact of close to 0% of the light being wasted, and it just makes sense.

The only downside, IMO, is the DIY aspect that I'm going to have to perform (and the plant counts, but I'm gonna be over 100 plants no matter what I do), but I think I can handle it - just building a wooden frame and then glueing some PVC together. The real issue is gonna be the design work, but I'm confident in myself.

Even though the startup time and effort is probably going to be enormous, this just makes too much mathematical sense for my brain to not do it.

Soooooooooooo.....................anyone have any quick and dirty tutorials for using Google Sketchup?


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## smokingrubber (Feb 4, 2010)

I'm not even stoned and that hurt my brain. You're going to have to be the guinne pig on this one. I will watch, and I'm here if you need moral support.


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## statik (Feb 4, 2010)

Yeah Bob, I see your point on the figures here. I am with SmokingRubber though, Im just going to watch you do this, I don't have the money to throw around and "experiment" like you do.

2+G's/w is NICE. Hell, 1g/w is good! Hoping I get that, 600 grams would be great! I am thinking I get less than a pound though with all the stress they went through.. 3/4's is my guess when all said and done.


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## DaGambler (Feb 5, 2010)

There's a lot of heat and contention on this point... but vertical sq. footage is not equivalent to horizontal sq. footage. Horizontal buds (flat sog gardens) tend to have bigger buds. Vertical gardens tend to be more work not only in the setup but also the upkeep... such as tying and bending and such. Vertical gardens may also take longer to veg. them into the proper configuration... such that the longer veg. time eats into what could be flower time for the next horizontal crop. I'd study the results that several persons have had in attempting vert. grows before going into the bi-level octagon business. Now... growing trees... with like one HPS bulb per plant... is a different kind of vertical growing all-together, but i don't think that's what you were talking about. Most of the vert grows that i have followed have had dissapointing results that were equivalent, at best, to a horizontal grows yield (much less work) in the same time period.
.


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## DaGambler (Feb 5, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Biggest Issues (in order of magnitude):
> 
> 1) Height/canopy management - no need to rehash what the issues were, but this just fucking killed me - the lack of being able to rotate plants made three of them not even worth trimming because the buds were so airy, and another several where I probably only got 4-8 grams off of.
> 
> 4) Not changing my reservoir for three months - although I have no idea what magnitude this might've played in my pitiful harvest, I'd be shocked if this didn't cost me a couple of ounces (prolly more). A subset of this would be not calibrating my pH meter for a while, and being off by .5 for a few weeks, which led to some nute lockout/uptake issues...


 
1) this'll happen when you've got too many plants fighting for the same light and crowding/blocking eachother out... this is why i would never recommend running more than one plant per square foot... and would actually recommend running slightly less than that. Last time i ran over 200 plants i literally tossed several whole plants because there was nothing on them worth keeping... when running 1/4 that many plants the least that i have pulled this crop is over 2 oz. per plant... and some have yeilded more than 4 oz. per plant at around 1 1/2 sq. ft. per plant.

4) if your experience was anything like what i have seen in the past... i don't doubt that not changing your rez at least every 2 weeks could have cost you at least -half- your potential harvest weight.
.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 5, 2010)

Bob, check out one of these to show off your babies with. It's a USB microscope. 

http://www.420scope.com/usb_scope.html


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## Bob Smith (Feb 6, 2010)

Didn't want anyone to spit their sodas out when you read that I only pulled 5 ounces and some change.

There, I said it, it's over and done with; that's in the past, now time to deal with the present and future.

So, had to deal with a couple of mini-fires yesterday that I thought were disastrous, but don't seem as bad now.

Firstly, thought the clones had powdery mildew - was freaking out, going nutso, and then realized that the spots I saw on some clones were a result of the weird spray I had hit them wtih (combination of 500PPMs of nutes and some fungicide/insecticide/miticide that I have), and some natural necrosis on the edges of the leaves I had cut.

Anyways, took out some of the weaker looking clones, and re-cut another 10-15 clones as replacements for them, but the new cuts are taller and thicker then the rest, giving them a headstart as they're 8 days behind in rooting.

So, the second issue was that as I was cutting the clones, the power in the garage went out. Figure I'd tripped the breaker (although I wasn't sure how), and went inside to check the circuit box, but the breaker hadn't tripped.

Tried (what I thought at that time) was one of the new circuits, and there was no power out of that, either, but there was power out of the third circuit (another new one).

Long story short (too late for that, my bads), it seems that something tripped the GFCI on the original garage line, and what I thought was a "new" circuit was really the old one.

Was tweaking because 20 amps wouldn't have been enough for me, but with 40 amps I'll be fine getting through this next grow.

BTW, would have taken pics, but we had a freak blizzard here in LA, and there's 2 feet of snow on the ground.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 6, 2010)

I've got ten seedlings going right now, and they're all showing preflowers (have not decided which are males yet, but I will ASAP).

Anyways, I'm still doing 144 in the flower tent, and 72 up top in the veg tent, and planning on making them seedless and "A" quality smokeable weed.

However, figured that since I was only planning on flowering the plants under the fluoros for hash and kief purposes (buds will be airy and not worth anything), figured I might as well fuck around and try my hand at making seeds, no?

Gonna take the most vigorous male (maybe two or three, if their growth and traits warrant it, but I'm not planning on just using any old male for this project - would like quality seeds) and breed him with every strain that I have, should it make sense.

Just figured I'd give you guys the heads up.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 6, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> I'm not even stoned and that hurt my brain. You're going to have to be the guinne pig on this one. I will watch, and I'm here if you need moral support.


Appreciate the support 



> Yeah Bob, I see your point on the figures here. I am with SmokingRubber though, Im just going to watch you do this, I don't have the money to throw around and "experiment" like you do.


Where's your sense of adventure? 



> There's a lot of heat and contention on this point... but vertical sq. footage is not equivalent to horizontal sq. footage. Horizontal buds (flat sog gardens) tend to have bigger buds. Vertical gardens tend to be more work not only in the setup but also the upkeep... such as tying and bending and such. Vertical gardens may also take longer to veg. them into the proper configuration... such that the longer veg. time eats into what could be flower time for the next horizontal crop. I'd study the results that several persons have had in attempting vert. grows before going into the bi-level octagon business.


Definitely been doing my research and going back and forth, but I'm pretty sure I'm gonna do it - you only live once, you know? 



> 1) this'll happen when you've got too many plants fighting for the same light and crowding/blocking eachother out


Yeah, overcrowding does cause stretching, but that wasn't my issue - that was just purely flowering too late - they were 1.5' and I only had 3' from reflector to tray. 



> 4) if your experience was anything like what i have seen in the past... i don't doubt that not changing your rez at least every 2 weeks could have cost you at least -half- your potential harvest weight.


Yeah, gonna change every two weeks religiously this round.



> Bob, check out one of these to show off your babies with. It's a USB microscope.
> 
> http://www.420scope.com/usb_scope.html


Pretty cool little novelty item, but I've never looked at trichomes before.

Maybe I'll grab one, though, who knows.


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## statik (Feb 6, 2010)

Fuck Bob, glad that blizzard missed SD! I hate it when the power goes out man, its one of the few things that literally drives me crazy cause there is NOTHING I can do. I cant run a gen where I am at, waaaay to much attention (even if I am legal).

5 OZ's? I should have taken that $5k bet...damnit! lmao..we shall see Bob...I have had my fair share of issues this run as well. So I know my harvest is going to be sub-par. How many days did you actually flower for? I am thinking I am not going over 10 weeks, I have clones that are gonna be *hella* root bound by then.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 6, 2010)

statik said:


> Fuck Bob, glad that blizzard missed SD! I hate it when the power goes out man, its one of the few things that literally drives me crazy cause there is NOTHING I can do. I cant run a gen where I am at, waaaay to much attention (even if I am legal).
> 
> 5 OZ's? I should have taken that $5k bet...damnit! lmao..we shall see Bob...I have had my fair share of issues this run as well. So I know my harvest is going to be sub-par. How many days did you actually flower for? I am thinking I am not going over 10 weeks, I have clones that are gonna be *hella* root bound by then.


Yeah, I don't really consider that run to be very indicative of what I'm going to be doing going forward, but it was certainly a laughable harvest.

And it wasn't the snow that made the power go out (house didn't lose power at all) - I think what happened is that some water spilled onto a surge protector, which caused the GFCI to trip - that's only what I've figured out by Googling why the power would go out without tripping the breaker, and it's the best thing that I can think of.

Even if I can't figure out how to reset the GFCI, I have two other 20 amp circuits available to me, so I'm fine on power - was worried for a minute because I thought I was down to one 20amp circuit, but I'll be fine with two.

Oh, and I flowered for 62 days.

BTW, for any of those interested in my vertical design progress, am now leaning towards building one of these, but making it 50% larger (3 600s in it, and 84 plant sites).

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17863


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## cazador (Feb 6, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> BTW, for any of those interested in my vertical design progress, am now leaning towards building one of these, but making it 50% larger (3 600s in it, and 84 plant sites).
> 
> http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17863


you go Bob!


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## smokingrubber (Feb 6, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> BTW, for any of those interested in my vertical design progress, am now leaning towards building one of these, but making it 50% larger (3 600s in it, and 84 plant sites).
> 
> http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17863


And you're going to start breeding your own seeds???? You're sick with it. You might need a 12 step program ... I think oaksterdam offers them.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 6, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> And you're going to start breeding your own seeds???? You're sick with it. You might need a 12 step program ... I think oaksterdam offers them.


Lol..........figured with my .15 grams/watt from my harvest, I've basically conquered everything that horizontal growing has to offer, so I need to expand my horizons 

And yeah, figured I'm never gonna flower under fluoros again, so since I was just gonna use those buds as bubble hash material, might as well give breeding a shot, no?



> you go Bob!


We'll see how it "goes" once I actually need to put this fucker together - seems easy enough though, no? The guy already did the measuring for me, it's just plopping down $600 to $800 for materials.

Also planning on utilizing a light mover in there.........should be interesting.


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## cazador (Feb 6, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Also planning on utilizing a light mover in there.........should be interesting.


more info, please. up/down?

and Bob, water and power strips don't mix! get them off the floor, please.


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## statik (Feb 6, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> it wasn't the snow that made the power go out (house didn't lose power at all) - I think what happened is that some water spilled onto a surge protector, which caused the GFCI to trip - that's only what I've figured out by Googling why the power would go out without tripping the breaker, and it's the best thing that I can think of.
> 
> Even if I can't figure out how to reset the GFCI, I have two other 20 amp circuits available to me, so I'm fine on power - was worried for a minute because I thought I was down to one 20amp circuit, but I'll be fine with two.


Water+Electricity= Bad

Lucky that all you did was pop a GFCI. You could have become a cooked Ka-Bob.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 6, 2010)

cazador said:


> more info, please. up/down?
> 
> and Bob, water and power strips don't mix! get them off the floor, please.


It actually wasn't on the floor - it's mounted on the stand for the top tray - was being sloppy and pulling plants out as the flood cycle was going, so they were sopping wet and some of that water got into the surge protector.

As far as the light mover idea, it'd be moving the lights up and down inside of the octagon, but by utilizing a horizontal light mover.

Kinda hard to explain, but a pretty simple concept - there'd be a "hook" above the lights directly in the middle where the cords are hanging down from, and then the light mover would be pulling the cords horizontally, which would move them vertically from the "hook" point.

Would just need to put some velvet or something around the rubber of the cords so that they'd slide easily over the hook.


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## cazador (Feb 6, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> It actually wasn't on the floor - it's mounted on the stand for the top tray - was being sloppy and pulling plants out as the flood cycle was going, so they were sopping wet and some of that water got into the surge protector.
> 
> As far as the light mover idea, it'd be moving the lights up and down inside of the octagon, but by utilizing a horizontal light mover.
> 
> ...


I think it's a great idea, so I'm not trying to poke holes in it... moving a light horizontally takes a lot less effort than lowering and lifting. What mover are you looking at using? or are you making one?


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## Bob Smith (Feb 6, 2010)

cazador said:


> I think it's a great idea, so I'm not trying to poke holes in it... moving a light horizontally takes a lot less effort than lowering and lifting. What mover are you looking at using? or are you making one?


Please, poke away - that's the point of the interaction, my friend 

As far as the extra effort, the light movers are designed to hang 25-30 pound reflectors and move those, so I'd "think" (FWIW) that it could pretty easily move just hanging bulbs up and down.

In vertical there are no reflectors, so it'd simply be three hanging bulbs, which are pretty light.

And you KNOW my ass isn't gonna make a light mover, kiddo - looking around for some that are adjustable, as I'd only need about 2-3 feet (if that) of horizontal/vertical movement.

Need one that can move that small of an amount, but can still pause at each end (might be doable with any light mover on the market, I've just never used them so don't know if it is).


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## BooMeR242 (Feb 7, 2010)

damn bob just catchin up on ur thread. sorry to hear about ur minidisaster u had with the power and ur yield. but like u said, was in the past and time to move forward. ill b followin along with this vert colliseum u got rollin and see how shit works out. goodluck!


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## Bob Smith (Feb 7, 2010)

BooMeR242 said:


> damn bob just catchin up on ur thread. sorry to hear about ur minidisaster u had with the power and ur yield. but like u said, was in the past and time to move forward. ill b followin along with this vert colliseum u got rollin and see how shit works out. goodluck!


No worries, my friend - I try to learn from my mistakes, and then forget about them  

Focused on this next grow (although my vert grow two grows from now has been taking a lot of my attention). Haven't been out to check on the clones since Friday and won't check them until tomorrow morning, and I'm hoping to see some new growth out of most of them (11 days since they were cut).

FYI, was at Home Depot (again) today checking out PVC pipe and fittings - basically built a system in the aisle for a half an hour - this shit (famous last words, I know) is gonna be pretty easy.

All the parts simply fit together like Legos; just a matter of glueing them together.

Also, Gambler has convinced me that a light mover is not very necessary when using 3 600s to cover a 6' vertical area, so the light mover idea is on the back burner (for at least a harvest or two).

Priced it out, and it's gonna run me ~$850 (plus $150 for unforeseen extras) to build the actual system; not bad at all, considering (doesn't include lights, though).


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## Bob Smith (Feb 7, 2010)

Still gonna try to get the sink installed, a circuit changed to 240V, and a natural gas line run, so that hasn't changed.

However, I have been giving some more thought to the air conditioning situation.

Seeing as how there are window ACs like this:

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?dest=9999999997&product_id=4569533&sourceid=1500000000000001245840http://www.air-n-water.com/product/ClassicPlus26.htm

which could pretty easily handle my cooling needs (2700 hundred watts and a CO2 burner) - can make a "room" in the garage that has the AC pulling from and exhausting into the "dead space", which can be up to 100F.

Also, even though it gets hot here, the average high temp from June through August is 80, 85, and 83, so it's not too brutal - of course, temps in the garage can get up to 10-15F hotter because of the sun just beating down on the roof of the garage.

Worse comes to worse, there's a vent in the top of the garage that I can remove, so I could setup some kind of extraction from there if necessary.

Would also have that little 12" window, so I could setup a little window fan in there during heat spells, because there'd be no bad "air" in that dead zone.

So, the point of all that typing is:

Would something like this work? Figure I'd build a frame out of 2x4s, then put super thin plywood on each side (don't need the weight or strength of drywall), and put some fiberglass insulation in between the panels of plywood.

Assuming I can keep the "dead" space temps <100F (should be pretty doable), this would work fine, no?

The AC is only $500, so that'd leave me a budget of $1500 to build the room (versus the $2K of the mini-split).

I know I've been saying that I thought that a mini-split was the most "secure", but that's so permanent that her dad would have to see it at some point and ask questions, whereas I can simply remove the window fan and/or ceiling extraction when he comes over.

Makes more sense to me (right now, at least).

BTW, am I fickle enough for you guys?


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## DaGambler (Feb 7, 2010)

if you wanted to save all ur ju-ju (electric) for lumens and bud development you could pass on the CO2 and go full greenhouse on that bi-atch. (I don't run any a.c. and my room is always a few degree cooler inside than it is outside in the summertime @ 7k.) meaning, lots of through-flow. Pull air (passive intake) from under the house through a lower wall in the garage... And use the roof (high up) garage vent for the room exhaust. You could actually skip venting the lights altogether as long as your cfm at the room top vent is high enough... allowing you to use just one carbon filter and an ozone generator. i'd say a 1400+ cfm fan going through an appropriate size carbon filter like this one:


*Dutch Breeze Carbon Air Filter - DFS8*** DFS8
Pounds of carbon: 82.7
Outside dimension: 14.96"
Length: 49.21"
CFM rating: 1200-1350
Flange size: 12"
*GENERAL HYDROPONICS ...*
*Retail Price: $278.95**Online Price: $234.95* per Each*Stock: 3* *Stock Breakup*
**   *More Info* 
http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/items.asp?Cc=OC&iTpStatus=1&Tp=

One intake (passive) and one carbon filtered exhaust. No extra walls or construction. No hoses or ducting. If you wanted to run more than like 2-4000 watts of lighting then you'd have to consider exhausting some of the lights separately out the garage window, but i'd bet that you'd be golden up to 4k. Use an insulated aluminum vent box (prefab from lowe's home depot) to muffle the fan noise as well as a couple feet of insulated 12" ducting... then the fan connected almost directly to the filter... and you'll not be losing many cfm's on such a short and straight run.

(EDIT: if you wanted to partition off a couple of 'walls' for reflectivity, then you'd just start in one of the corners... and make sure the 12" by 24" intake vent is in the partioned off area such that fresh air is passing through the plants and past the lights to escape.)
.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 7, 2010)

Thats a good price for 82 lbs of carbon filter! I wish I could get cool air from under a house like that gambler. I'm stuck sucking fresh air off the roof and exhausting it out the other side of the roof. I ain't complainin too much though


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## Bob Smith (Feb 8, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> if you wanted to save all ur ju-ju (electric) for lumens and bud development you could pass on the CO2 and go full greenhouse on that bi-atch. (I don't run any a.c. and my room is always a few degree cooler inside than it is outside in the summertime @ 7k.) meaning, lots of through-flow. Pull air (passive intake) from under the house through a lower wall in the garage... And use the roof (high up) garage vent for the room exhaust. You could actually skip venting the lights altogether as long as your cfm at the room top vent is high enough... allowing you to use just one carbon filter and an ozone generator. i'd say a 1400+ cfm fan going through an appropriate size carbon filter like this one:
> 
> 
> *Dutch Breeze Carbon Air Filter - DFS8*** DFS8
> ...


That actually sounds like a pretty cool setup, in all honesty (makes me think of the SeeMoreBuds setup, actually), but that's something that would be a little too permanent and risque for me - plus those fans are hella loud (although I've never tried that muffler like you've stated).

Still at square one, but I'm leaning towards building a cheap wooden (12x room out of 2x4s and thin plywood, and having a window AC (24K BTU) mounted in it.

Would need to find a way to keep the "dead" space of the garage at least reasonable, and I'm about to do some research right now into if two Ice Boxes run off of tap water would be able to keep that area <100F, 98% of the time.

Figure even on the insanely hot days when it would get to 120F in there, the window AC could probably handle that, anyways, with how oversized it is.

EDIT: Gambler, didn't really address your point about electric - long story short, the AC/cooling doesn't cannibalize any of the power that the lights need (have 60 amps in there, which is more then enough for the <3000 watts I plan on running), and I'm not very concerned about electric costs or bills.

Just need to find the most discreet way to keep the garage temps <75F, no matter the cost.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 8, 2010)

Just gonna get a mini-split - not taking the time to build rooms within rooms and other such silliness when I could just spend a couple of grand and get what I need.

If he sees the outside unit, I'll just say it's a supplemental unit to assist our main central AC unit on really hot days (we had AC problems last summer, so that excuse should work).

For reals this time, not wasting any more fucking time on cooling the garage, and if someone sees me post something about it, tell me to stop wasting both of our time.

BTW, clones are coming along slower then I would've liked - looks like it's gonna be another 5-7 days before they're ready to veg in the flower tent for a couple of days, so 12/12 will be delayed a handful of days (3-5ish) from the original scheduled flip date of Valentine's Day.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 8, 2010)

Check the rest of your house for a GFI plug Bob. My patio is on the same circuit as my garage plug, so zapping my fish in the back yard trips the GFI plug in the garage! It took me a month to figure out where to reset that fuckr last year. Maybe _your_ reset is in a bathroom or out on an exterior plug face?


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## Integra21 (Feb 8, 2010)

Seems like you are starting to make your mind up bob. Although it is a more permentent solution, it is still removable if you move, or possibly up the resale of the house with an airconditioned garage.


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## statik (Feb 8, 2010)

Ok Bob, mini-split it is. If I hear you even start on another option I am going to link you back to your post talking about wasting yours/ours time.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 8, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Check the rest of your house for a GFI plug Bob. My patio is on the same circuit as my garage plug, so zapping my fish in the back yard trips the GFI plug in the garage! It took me a month to figure out where to reset that fuckr last year. Maybe _your_ reset is in a bathroom or out on an exterior plug face?


Yeah, I _could _do that............but since I'm a lazy motherfucker and the 40 amps still in the garage is plenty for me for this next grow, I'm simply gonna leave it be, and then tell the mini-split installer to do it on that circuit, in which case HE'LL have to find the GFI and fix it 



> Seems like you are starting to make your mind up bob. Although it is a more permentent solution, it is still removable if you move, or possibly up the resale of the house with an airconditioned garage.


It's done, at least until April 15th - no more talk of air conditioning or vertical systems until that day, guaranteed 



> Ok Bob, mini-split it is. If I hear you even start on another option I am going to link you back to your post talking about wasting yours/ours time.


Yuppers; no more talk of any of that shit or pagelong posts about nothing - gonna be doing regular pic updates every few days (with minimal "narration"), and that'll be it - trying to make this thread more pics and less blabbering by me.

Save us all a lot of time and let us do other things (like study and find a job ).


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## smokingrubber (Feb 8, 2010)

JOB? Yeah, I've got one and it's not always all it's cracked up to be. Wash your mouth out. You've got computer games to play and weed to grow. You don't have time for a job LOL.


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## cazador (Feb 9, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, I _could _do that............but since I'm a lazy motherfucker and the 40 amps still in the garage is plenty for me for this next grow, I'm simply gonna leave it be, and then tell the mini-split installer to do it on that circuit, in which case HE'LL have to find the GFI and fix it


Bob your GFIC is on a 120v line correct? What mini-split are you considering?
(120v or 240v?)


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## smokingrubber (Feb 14, 2010)

Bob, you gettin slapped around by the weather? How's your project coming?


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## Bob Smith (Feb 24, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Bob, you gettin slapped around by the weather? How's your project coming?


Yes and "meh".

Totally fucked up the superskunk clones, so I only got 90 "viable" (even that word is somewhat of a stretch) clones for flowering, so the plan has changed.

First, here are some pics (as promised, more pics from now on) of the plants right now (transplanted yesterday, 2/23):





What seems to have happened is that the root systems got roasted because I didn't use a towel in-between the heat mat and the tray (purposefully, as I was worried about how cold it was in the garage and figured they needed all the heat they could get).

Also the miniature size of them certainly didn't help, but all of these issues and more have been addressed for this next run .

Real quick, the new plan is as follows - gonna flower the best 72 superskunk in the top of the veg tent under my 400HPS, and now I'm gonna do 144 Bubblelicous clones in my flowering tent (cut the clones all morning).

I guess with the 98 indica mom clones I took this morning, I'll put them under the fluoros on bottom, but I'm contemplating buying a cheapo 400HPS for the bottom of the tent and running 800 watts of HPS for the 144 plants in there - just worried about the heat as I won't be able to air-cool it (I don't think).

Anyways, here's the new cloning setup:




Bought a third heating mat, and that board is actually the back of an old Godfather movie poster, which works great when supported by the buckets - much better and more even heating than laying the heat mat across two buckets; also laid a towel over all three to ensure even and not so intense heating of the rootzone.






Here's the first 98 BL clones - as you can see, they're MUCH larger than the SS clones were (was gonna show you picks of all three trays, but you get the idea). I also used Root Excelurator in the rockwool prep solution, so I'm hoping that works as well as it did last time (my first run in rockwool, when everything went great).





Here's a 4" inline which fell 8 feet from the rafter it was duct taped to - didn't check to see if it still works yet, but there's a nice dent on the front of it.

The second pic was supposed to be the filter system - basically, the 4" was going to be running 24/7 to eliminate odors throughout the garage, and the 6" inline was going to only run when the flowering tent needed to be exhausted - the two met up at a "T", which then ran to the 6" filter - there were problems with this design from the start, so I think I might just have the 4" hooked up the filter (assuming it's still running), and have the 6" exhausting dirty air into the garage (it never runs anyways, so that wouldn't be THAT big of a deal).

Trying to avoid spending money (but more importantly, the time and effort to hang it) for another filter.



Here's the Magnum XXXL hung - used a light yo-yo, which is BARELY strong enough (even at max tension) to keep that fucker up. Also have my dehumidifier hanging from the ceiling (kinda cool), and added another 12" oscillating fan on the diagonal corner from where the current one is - will take pics of the flowering tent setup and post next time I post.





And finally, here's some pics of the top of the veg tent - you can see, it's fucking outta control (as evidenced by the one plant trying to grow through the roof of the tent).

Gonna identify the seedlings (looks like most are showing preflowers) and take some clones off the best one or two females of each strain, and they're going to join my other genetics in Bob's Arc (probably a closet in my house with a little fluoro flood light) to keep them alive for the next couple of months with minimal care.

Gonna have Bubblelicous, Bagseed, NYPD, Super Skunk, AK-48, Ice, and Master Kush on the Arc.

They'll also be joined for the first month by my vegetable/pepper seedlings for my outdoor garden.

Also, got a response from SeeMoreBuds, but there was a miscommunication (he thought I was referencing nodes as opposed to inches when discussing flowering heights), so I responded back and am waiting for him to get back to me.

Finally, as you can see from the pic of the transplanted SS clones, those 3.5" pots don't fully fill up my 4x4 tray (although they're perfect for the 4x2 tray), so I ordered some 4" pots and holders - even though there's only 1/2" difference in length, with the added depth (5.25" vs. 3.75"), they provide 60% more rootspace (trust me, I did the calcs).

And that's it for now - it was a long and wordy post, but at least there were pics


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## Integra21 (Feb 24, 2010)

Looks like you are making progress bob. Keep up the good work. Thought you might be busy since I haddnt seen you on in a while.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 24, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Looks like you are making progress bob. Keep up the good work. Thought you might be busy since I haddnt seen you on in a while.


Yeah, have been studying, working out, and searching for gainful employment (AKA being "productive" ) for a little bit now.

Also just got back from Europe the other day (was there for a week; no, didn't go to Amsterdam).

Still need to do some work on the exhaust for the flowering tent, but other than that I'm pretty ready for this next run.


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## Integra21 (Feb 24, 2010)

Sweet, cant wait to see it all up in action again. Pretty sure it will turn out better than the last run since it cant really get much worse, so you have that to look forward to. I wish you luck my friend.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 24, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Sweet, cant wait to see it all up in action again. Pretty sure it will turn out better than the last run since it cant really get much worse, so you have that to look forward to. I wish you luck my friend.


Lol, you're correct about that - nowhere to go but up; it's nice setting the bar that low on my first run in this system.

That being said, if I don't beat my last harvest, all of my equipment is free to a good home 

BTW, here's the pics of the new ceiling of the flower tent that I promised:


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## smokingrubber (Feb 24, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> That being said, if I don't beat my last harvest, all of my equipment is free to a good home


I know it's frustrating, but your next crop should be better. I have faith in you... but I also have a *good* home ready and waiting for all your equipment


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## Bob Smith (Feb 24, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> I know it's frustrating, but your next crop should be better. I have faith in you... but I also have a *good* home ready and waiting for all your equipment


I actually find it more comical than frustrating, in all honesty - but I do get to talk of multiples of my last harvest when thinking of goals for this one.

Will be "content" with 4x my last harvest, but won't be "happy" unless I hit 6x (30 ounces).

And if I hit 4.9 ounces this run, you can have my three CO2 tanks and my regulator...........you're gonna need them with that setup you're working on

BTW, I'm in the "swimming pool" thread talking about the things I'm not allowed to talk about in this one  - have an entirely new idea, will make a video tomorrow to explain where I'm coming from and post it here if anyone wants to see it.


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## DaGambler (Feb 26, 2010)

LOtta durn work taking all those clones ... i look forward to only having to take 48 these days rather than the 200+ i tried on a couple runs. I look forward to your results however. How you gonna get those clones apart - it looks like just a single layer of rockwool rather than rockwool cubes ? I envy your xxxl magnum.
.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 26, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> LOtta durn work taking all those clones ... i look forward to only having to take 48 these days rather than the 200+ i tried on a couple runs. I look forward to your results however. How you gonna get those clones apart - it looks like just a single layer of rockwool rather than rockwool cubes ? I envy your xxxl magnum.
> .


Yeah, taking the clones can get a little tedious, but a few hours every couple of months isn't that big of a deal - BTW, just checked on them, and the clones are looking super healthy - none of the yellowing that plagued me last run 

Referencing the "practice", I'm gonna need 350-400 clones every couple of months for my newest idea:

http://www.hhydro.com/RotoGro-312-Rotating-Garden.html

Just gonna need to switch a circuit to 240V, and than it's just plug and play.

And the rockwool is a sheet of 98 cubes, but they're inverted pyramids, so the roots won't intermingle between the different cubes - below is a pic from my first run, but it shows the shape of them pretty well:



Also, I know I'm not supposed to talk about it, but since this materially changes my plans, I might as well:



Fucked if I know how I didn't notice that vent before, but since it's now possible to vent to the outside, I'm not gonna need a mini-split (looked up the installation costs, and they're unreal - like $4K just for the install) and can now run a large (14K BTU) portable AC in there (also gonna have a 1/2 HP chiller in the attic that cools a reservoir in the garage).

Obviously don't have to empty out the garage, so now I'm not sure if I'm gonna flower out the veg tent anymore (need to think).

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I'm trying to move ahead with running a natural gas line to the garage - the attached pics at the bottom are what it looked like when I pulled the stove off of the wall - went to Home Depot yesterday (brought the camera with me), and the guy at the store was totally fucking clueless as to how to help me.


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## Integra21 (Feb 26, 2010)

Jeeze bob, that rotoGrow is rediculous. Do you know what the actual space is between the lamps and the plant trays. Seeps pretty small for mj and 100w lights. But Im just guessin from the pics. Good that you have a vent, and the gas line looks like you might be able to tap into it, but I have never messed with gas, so I cant really help there.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 26, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Jeeze bob, that rotoGrow is rediculous. Do you know what the actual space is between the lamps and the plant trays. Seeps pretty small for mj and 100w lights. But Im just guessin from the pics. Good that you have a vent, and the gas line looks like you might be able to tap into it, but I have never messed with gas, so I cant really help there.


Yeah, the space is ~20" from the top of the rockwool cube to the cooltube, so basically 12" is the perfect finishing size for them.

Lucky for me, my current grow is with large numbers of small plants where I'm shooting for ~12" finishing height 

The system's pricy as fuck, but the efficiency it provides is pricelss, IMO - would more than pay for itself after one harvest.

Plus, since I doubt I could move >4 pounds every couple of months, I could either just not use it constantly and only run a few harvests a year, or I could take any amount over 4lbs. and make copious amounts of hash and kief with it.

Plus I'm a flamboyant kinda guy and I like having toys other people don't have (maybe it's an insecurity thing?)


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## Integra21 (Feb 26, 2010)

the only reason that concerns me is you need about that much clearance from a 100w light. From what I've read you need 12-24" of distance from the lights to the plants, which would mean your plants could only be 2-6 inches tall. But obviously, for that price, maybe they thought of that. Just throwing my concerns out there.


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## smokingrubber (Feb 26, 2010)

Wanna be spectacular? Check this thing out Bob. It's too big for your place, but we can always dream. Watch the video of this thing in action. LOL
http://www.omegagarden.com/index.php?content_id=1521


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## Bob Smith (Feb 26, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> the only reason that concerns me is you need about that much clearance from a 100w light. From what I've read you need 12-24" of distance from the lights to the plants, which would mean your plants could only be 2-6 inches tall. But obviously, for that price, maybe they thought of that. Just throwing my concerns out there.


Yeah, there's a difference between height alllowances for open-bulbed vs. reflectors - those numbers you're quoting are for large bulbs in reflectors.

This link has some sick pics........

http://www.fullmeltbubble.com/forum/showthread.php?t=416



> Wanna be spectacular? Check this thing out Bob. It's too big for your place, but we can always dream. Watch the video of this thing in action. LOL
> [URL="http://www.omegagarden.com/index.php?content_id=1521"]http://www.omegagarden.com/index.php?content_id=1521[/URL]


LMAO.............now that might be a touch of overkill for some personal smoke


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## Integra21 (Feb 26, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, there's a difference between height alllowances for open-bulbed vs. reflectors - those numbers you're quoting are for large bulbs in reflectors.
> 
> This link has some sick pics........
> 
> ...


Taht's rediculous bob. I could have never imagined it would work that well. Seems like it would take a lot of time to set that up properly, but thats just a guess. That was really sick. Thanks for the link.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 26, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Taht's rediculous bob. I could have never imagined it would work that well. Seems like it would take a lot of time to set that up properly, but thats just a guess. That was really sick. Thanks for the link.


Yeah, it's hard to find documented journals on the net (for obvious reasons), but based on what I hear from respected growers, these things are the truth.

This upcoming grow with the Bubblelicous will be a nice test run for that, as I'm basically running half of that machine, but obviously in a flat grow.

And the website says that it takes one hour to set it up (so that's about a month for me ).

Gonna spend a couple to a few grand for an upgrade anyways if I don't go vertical/tubular, so it's only an incremental couple/few thousand extra to get this toy.


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## DaGambler (Feb 27, 2010)

you say its hard to find journals on these things but they are out there ... and the ones i have read generally end the same way, with the grower being underwhelmed with their success.

unless ur just balls-2-the-wall about not using electricity ... the kind of shit that i could do with 5500.00 dollars would blow this things harvest out of the water. Ur money could be spent in much, much better ways.

and i'm gonna go way out on a limb here and just bring this up one last time and say, "You need to start prioritizing your freedom and stop saying 'fuck plant numbers' ..." 'cuz i'm not sure ur taking this chart seriously:


*Federal Cultivation Penalties:*
Less than 50 kg - 5 years 
50 to 100 kg - up to 20 years
100 to 1,000 kg - 5 - 40 years
1000 kg or more - 10 years - life
with sale to a minor - doubles penalty
Within 1,000 feet of a school - doubles penalty
.
*1 PLANT ='s 1 kg in the eyes of the law*

*...so you grow up to 49 plants you could spend up to 5 years in jail.*

*... you grow 50-99 plants you could spend up to 20 years in jail.*

*But the Federal Government is likely to leave you alone until you get to this stage:*

*... you grow 100 plants or more (up to 999) and the presiding judge will have no choice but to sentence you to -between- 5 and 40 years behind bars. *

*... you grow 1000 plants or more and the judge must sentence you to between 10 years and life. Mandatory minimum sentences are no joke, brother. There's good reason to try to stay below 100 plants. I'm guilty of not always having done so myself... but it's something that can't be thought about too much, so long as ur still sleeping in your own bed and not on a county (or federal) cot.*

*I know of at least 3 people on RIU that have been raided in the last 3 months. "Tighten up your game, people." This shit ain't no joke.*
*.*


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## smokingrubber (Feb 27, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> * "Tighten up your game, people." This shit ain't no joke.*


It's hard to argue with common sense! Good lookin out.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 27, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> you say its hard to find journals on these things but they are out there ... and the ones i have read generally end the same way, with the grower being underwhelmed with their success.
> 
> unless ur just balls-2-the-wall about not using electricity ... the kind of shit that i could do with 5500.00 dollars would blow this things harvest out of the water. Ur money could be spent in much, much better ways.
> 
> ...


Totally agreed about staying low on plant numbers being the best way to go, but unfortunately any scenario that I can conceive of has me greater than 100 plants 

That being said, so long as I make my grow op as secure as can be and tell no one about it (there are two people in the "real" world who know of my fictional grow, and that's me and my girl, who I live with), I like my chances.

Fully agree with you that my "fuck plant counts" stance isn't the best, but since I'm in a medical state and I can workout an arrangement with a dispensary to be legal, it's not something I'd worry too much about.

Also, this whole thread and any possible ideas are purely figments of my imagination, so it's kinda a moot point 

Long story short, my "friend" is looking to guarantee at least 4lbs. every two months (even with a bad harvest) with the smallest electrical draw possible as well as minimal daily maintenance (preferably a few minutes every other day); the most efficient way to get that done is a vertical/cylindrical grow with high plant counts and small plants, as far as he knows.

Of course, my friend is never set in stone on anything, and if he can figure out a reasonable balance that allows him low electrical draw (preferably 2500 watts or less for flowering, and 600 or less for vegging/cloning) and the guaranteed 2lbs. a month whilst keeping him under 100 plants, he's all ears 

It looks like he's also gonna need it all too be easily fit-able in a 10X15 footprint, so that's just one more limiting factor.

In all honesty, I do appreciate the "speeding ticket" (as we call it in poker) - sometimes my friend does feel like he's above the law, and he forgets that there are consequences to his actions, so your reminders are good for him to heed.


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## DaGambler (Feb 27, 2010)

Sorry, Bob ... i'll say any damn thing that pops into my head when i've got a migraine headache.  . 

So this is what i'm working out ... ur okay burning 2600 watts in flower (two 1k HPS and a 600 HPS) and up to 600 watts or less for clone / veg. (six 4' two bulb flourescent fixtures - clones are taken the day before flipping to flower for a slow growing, but compact, clone / veg room that is ready just when ur harvesting the last batch. You've got 12" of grow space under the flouros so just cut them back and bush them more if u start running out of space before you are ready for them.) All this in a 10'x15' footprint. Just make one footprint OoO with the HPS bulbs over a 4' by 8' area. Ur saying you want two pounds a month... 4 lbs. every 60 days... Change ur timeline a tad and shoot for like every 70 days you have a harvest. 63 days from day 1 of flowering ... you start to harvest and you manage to not only finish harvesting but also transplant the next batch from the clone/veg room in just 7 days.... so it takes 70 days to flip a crop. Can you get 4lbs. off that crop in 70 days ? Without co2, it would be tight - but possible. But i can tell you that you deffinitely aren't going to pull 4 lbs. off one of those roto-growers.

Now, if you manage to incorporate passive air flow, fresh air flow, etc. such that no a.c. needs to be used (i'm running 7k+ w/o so it can be done) ... then you could drop a bit more on the lights... Run 4k 1000w HPS lamps (over a 10' x 10' area) and 9 4' flourescent 2 bulb fixtures on shelving, 3 fixtures per shelf. This you would quite easily pull 4 lbs. from every 70 days. With only 48 plants in the flower room. And 48-51 clones.

regards,
DaGambler
.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> Sorry, Bob ... i'll say any damn thing that pops into my head when i've got a migraine headache.  .
> 
> So this is what i'm working out ... ur okay burning 2600 watts in flower (two 1k HPS and a 600 HPS) and up to 600 watts or less for clone / veg. (six 4' two bulb flourescent fixtures - clones are taken the day before flipping to flower for a slow growing, but compact, clone / veg room that is ready just when ur harvesting the last batch. You've got 12" of grow space under the flouros so just cut them back and bush them more if u start running out of space before you are ready for them.) All this in a 10'x15' footprint. Just make one footprint OoO with the HPS bulbs over a 4' by 8' area. Ur saying you want two pounds a month... 4 lbs. every 60 days... Change ur timeline a tad and shoot for like every 70 days you have a harvest. 63 days from day 1 of flowering ... you start to harvest and you manage to not only finish harvesting but also transplant the next batch from the clone/veg room in just 7 days.... so it takes 70 days to flip a crop. Can you get 4lbs. off that crop in 70 days ? Without co2, it would be tight - but possible. But i can tell you that you deffinitely aren't going to pull 4 lbs. off one of those roto-growers.
> 
> ...


Hey, no worries about saying what's on your mind - that's what we're all here for, to hear differing opinions/views and to hopefully learn a thing or two 

If I was gonna use ~2500 watts, I'd most likely do an Al B. Fuct impersonation, but run topped 4 cola plants at 1/sf under 4 600s over 3x3 tables; this would keep my plant count well under 100, but I fucking hate vegging, which I'd need to do.

Anyhow, there are lots of ways to skin a cat, and I've been thinking them over quite a bit in my head, including but not limited to scenarios that try to reduce my time >99 plants as much as possible (for instance, an 84 site vert grow with a few moms, which would keep me <99 for all but the final week or two before harvest, when I'd cut new clones).

Anyways, got my new 4" pots delivered, so here's a couple of pics to show the surprising size discrepancy between them and the 3.5" I was planning on using:




As you can see, the 4" pot has 60% more volume for roots, which is a good thing  

Also, since I'm not going to have a mini-split installed and am going to figure out another way to cool the garage, I'm removing my self-imposed ban on talking about renovations or my new growroom design.

Have the goodwill truck coming around on Thursday, so I'm gonna get rid of most of the leftover junk taking up space in there, and when that's gone, I'm gonna snap some pictures of some things I've found and some ideas I have (will prolly do a short video to explain it better).

Long story short, gonna build a ~10x15 insulated room in there (totally sealed, for now), and gonna cool it with a 24K BTU window AC (a few hundred for a window vs. $4K for a portable of that size).

Gonna have either an 8" or 10" centrifugal for exhaust and either a 4" or 6" for intake through this vent:



There's a lot more, but I'll spare you all, for now............so first things first, who the fuck knows anything about builing an insulated room?

Have done a ton of searching online and am not finding what I want.........not gonna do a Bob Vila special, just want a structure that won't collapse and is somewhat insulated as cheaply and as easily as possible.

Would love to just buy an insulated shed and put it in there, but the garage door rails are only about 7' high, which is a pain in the ass - anyone know how hard it'd be to remove them temporarily and still keep the garage door up? I guess you'd need pictures of it to know, huh? 

Taking some now............


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## shnkrmn (Mar 1, 2010)

You don't want to remove the rails. Bring on the pix.


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## cazador (Mar 1, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Hey, no worries about saying what's on your mind - that's what we're all here for, to hear differing opinions/views and to hopefully learn a thing or two
> 
> If I was gonna use ~2500 watts, I'd most likely do an Al B. Fuct impersonation, but run topped 4 cola plants at 1/sf under 4 600s over 3x3 tables; this would keep my plant count well under 100, but I fucking hate vegging, which I'd need to do.
> 
> ...


I built a 6x12 inner room. I was going to get a tent then was going to....... It was easier and cheaper to just build with 2x4's, sheetrock and paint so that's what I did (well, really I used some panda film I had laying around) but would have painted if I didn't. If I were to go as large as you want I would definitely frame it out properly. You have a lot invested inside and things you need to support. You don't want it to collapse. I know of a friend who's tent collapsed recently thankfully he was at the last week of flower AND it didn't start a fire. It was his second or third round in the tent and didn't change anything. Just the cheap plastic connectors failed. He did get a cheap tent and is now paying for it. Back on track. Depending on how insulated you want it. You can build it with 2x4's and sheetrock and insulate the inner part of the walls. You can off-set the walls too, it makes them thicker allowing for more insulation and it also makes it more sound proof. The nice thing about it is it is a custom build so you support the structure where you need it to support A/C's , fans and the like.

Edit: You can construct the walls independently and bolt them together like a kit. That way you can take it apart easily too.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

For the quick responses, guys - did you one better from pics and shot a short video, trying to give you guys some feel for what it's like in that crowded hellhole.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4cvFB_jEmDU

I guess if I'm gonna build it, might as well do it right, huh?

The two biggest issues that I foresee are:

1) The garage door rails, although I guess I could "live" with only ~7' of vertical height.

2) The fact that the floor in the garage is an absolute joke in terms of being flat - cracked concrete that has peaks and valleys.

Anyhow, you guys will get a better idea when you see this video which should be uploaded within five minutes - already have two walls and large 2x8 crossbeams which basically frame out the ceiling, so.............

Also, here's some pics of the concrete base which sticks away from the wall an inch or two and runs about 1.5' up from the floor on each wall - this could also be a pain, as I wanted to attach studs to the side wall's studs to help support the structure:


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## smokingrubber (Mar 1, 2010)

Again, you forgot to throw out a few "Knarley"s 

I would just notch out the new wall for those rails. They won't be a big deal. 

Infact, why not just build a wall across by the entrance door and use the whole back area? Then you wouldn't even need to mess with the rails. Cover the inside of the garage door and walls with some panda film and call it done?


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> Again, you forgot to throw out a few "Knarley"s
> 
> I would just notch out the new wall for those rails. They won't be a big deal.
> 
> Infact, why not just build a wall across by the entrance door and use the whole back area? Then you wouldn't even need to mess with the rails. Cover the inside of the garage door and walls with some panda film and call it done?


That's actually the way I was leaning, but that doesn't allow me to use a big ole window AC, which means I'd have to drop several thousand on a 24KBTU portable, and still wouldn't be sure that it worked well once temps got hot.

Unless, of course, there's a method for providing for exhaust and intake for a large unit like that through that vent somehow.

BTW, this was the insulation I was planning on using:

http://www.insulation4less.com/Insulation4lessProduct-1-Prodex-Total-48-Inch.aspx


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## shnkrmn (Mar 1, 2010)

Okay. Your garage is a lot like mine, except I can get a car in. Cracked concrete floor and all. Now you should maybe consider removing the rails. It would be a shame to limit yourself to 7 feet. The are usually in two pieces anyway, the horizontal piece could be removed. You would have to detension the winding spring though and you need to really know what you are doing with that or a gory death can follow. I didn't realize you weren't using the garage for anything else (except your junk). To deal with that ledge you just have to fir out the studs you want to tie your room walls to.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

shnkrmn said:


> Okay. Your garage is a lot like mine, except I can get a car in. Cracked concrete floor and all. Now you should maybe consider removing the rails. It would be a shame to limit yourself to 7 feet. The are usually in two pieces anyway, the horizontal piece could be removed. You would have to detension the winding spring though and you need to really know what you are doing with that or a gory death can follow. I didn't realize you weren't using the garage for anything else (except your junk). To deal with that ledge you just have to fir out the studs you want to tie your room walls to.


Hmmmm...........as romantic and "Shakespearean" as a gory death caused by trying to grow weed in my garage sounds, I'm thinking I might keep that one as a last resort (although I definitely appreciate the help/input).

Anyone know of any threads where someone build a box to contain a window AC? If I did that, I could have exhaust and intake running to and from that vent, and it could pretty easily keep the entire garage cool.

BTW people, this is not a drill - temps are getting up fast in my part of the world, and I'd like to be DONE this renovation within a few weeks, so this is no longer "pie in the sky" daydreams.

EDIT: whoever sent me a PM via Youtube, I don't respond to them there, but will gladly on here...........


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

*Anyone know what would happen to the condensation from the back of the large window AC if it was mounted inside?*

*Would that water just form a puddle in the middle of my garage?*

Sitting here with my finger on the "Buy" button for a 14KBTU portable, which I would use in tandem with a 1/2HP water chiller and some Ice Boxes to keep the garage cool - that gives me about 20K worth of combined cooling, and allows me more even cooling throughout, as I can use Ice Boxes for spot cooling.

Another (and probably the biggest, in my book) advantage is that there'd be no wiring issues, which I like 

Also wouldn't have to mount a 200 pound AC ten feet up in the air, which has its obvious benefits.

Also lets me run a HydroGen for CO2 supplementation, whereas with the 24K I'd just use my current generator and the AC would simply have to overcome that heat.

So, the question is, in all of your professional opinions, would I be better off with one 24K unit or the combo package described above?

Wow, just laying it out there, assuming that I can wire a 240V circuit and the AC wouldn't be constantly leaking onto the floor, the price savings of installing a $300 24K AC seem to overwhelm the other factors.

$500 for the AC plus another $100 for wiring, vs. $500 for the portable AC, $1000 for the chiller, $100 for an insulated reservoir, $300 for two ice boxes, $400 for the HydroGen..........$600 vs. $2300, and the $600 is more reliable on hot days.

Boy, that's a toughie...........now someone just tell me that there's a way to mitigate the condensation from the fucker.

*EDIT: Of course, could just get two 14K portables for $1K.................just realized that, and with the wiring issues that I'm sure I'll encounter, I think that might be the best option.........we'll call that Choice C.*


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks greatly for all your help last time; probably could've installed the additional circuits myself, but just paid an *electrician* instead.

Like a moron, however, I got both (20amps a piece) wired at 120V, and it's becoming increasingly clear that I really need a 240V circuit in there.

So, my question is two parts:

Firstly, how can you tell if an outlet is wired for 120 or 240? I have no idea what a 240 outlet looks like, in all honesty.

Secondly, everything I've read on the Internet states that a double pole breaker is a 240 and a single pole is a 120 - is this correct?

Asking because it would appear as though I've got 240 in the garage already if this is the case, as per the pics below:

First a pic of the overall breaker box.



Now here's the circuit(s) in question - obviously this is a double pole circuit, so shouldn't there be 240V power going to both the garage and the shed?



And since there's a bazillion outlets in the garage, I figured I'd take a pic of the outlet in the shed, as it's the only one there.




So with that evidence (although I can gather more if you need it), what is your professional opinion of what V I have running on that circuit?

Also, is there a cheap and easy way to test it?

Finally, since I'd imagine you're gonna say something along the lines of "nope, you've only got 120", how difficult (and costly) would it be to upgrade one of those new circuits to 240, or even to run a brand new one?

Thanks so much for your time, my friend.


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## cazador (Mar 1, 2010)

Hey Bob, The A/C will condense mucho agua. Need to catch it just like the dehumidifier. 

Looks like a 110V outlet. Test it by plugging in a light if it lights up and doesn&#8217;t blow, it&#8217;s 110V  You can get a voltage tester it&#8217;s a good thing to have a round. Like I said earlier it looks like it&#8217;s installed wrong, by the way you described it to me earlier. But it also seems like your way close. Just need to find the other side of the orange wire leaving the breaker box. There is probably a junction box somewhere between the breaker and the garage and shed.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

Appreciate the help Caz, but as of right now I'm not sure that re-wiring is necessary, and am actually kinda certain it's not.

Depending on what you electrical/AC pros come back with, I'm thinking that one or two of the 14K BTU portable ACs are the way to go, and they'd each run on their own 120V 20 amp circuit, leaving another 600 watts for other things on each of those circuits (that 600 number took into account the safety margin).

Then, I'd just have to pop out the dual pole 20/20 breaker and install a 30 amp breaker there, and that would run my flowering lights (either two 1Ks or 4 600s).

If running 600s I wouldn't even need to do that, but I'd prefer to start with the 1Ks in the new system, as it's cheaper to buy one more 1K than 4 new 600s.

Sooooooooooooo....................anybody got any ideas? Or more specifically, anyone think that two 14K portable BTUs wouldn't be enough to handle that heatload?


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## Canback (Mar 1, 2010)

Great info. Hope my next grow goes as well. Scribed.


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## cazador (Mar 1, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Appreciate the help Caz, but as of right now I'm not sure that re-wiring is necessary, and am actually kinda certain it's not.
> 
> Depending on what you electrical/AC pros come back with, I'm thinking that one or two of the 14K BTU portable ACs are the way to go, and they'd each run on their own 120V 20 amp circuit, leaving another 600 watts for other things on each of those circuits (that 600 number took into account the safety margin).
> 
> ...


Oh sorry, I see, I thought you were going 220v. ( don't rule it out I think it is the way to go.)

That seems like a way to go. Something like this?> http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&search=Portable%20Air%20Conditioner&N=0&Ntt=Portable%20Air%20Conditioner&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US
?

And Let's not move to quickly here on switching out the 20/20 breaker! You need to find out exactly how that line is run. You did say the line looked like an orange 10gauge romex wire leaving the breaker box and that it supplied power to both the garage and shed. Looking at the line to the outlet in the shed it looks kinda like a buried line not the same line leaving the breaker box. Where is the splice? What gauge is the line going into the shed outlet? Can you see the line going to the outlet connected to this breaker in the garage anywhere? 

to get either 2 - 30 amp/110v lines or 1- 30amp/220v line you need to have both the red and black hot lines and the white/neutral and ground wires coming into the garage somewhere?


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## Bob Smith (Mar 1, 2010)

cazador said:


> Oh sorry, I see, I thought you were going 220v. ( don't rule it out I think it is the way to go.)
> 
> That seems like a way to go. Something like this?> http://www.costco.com/Common/Search.aspx?whse=BC&topnav=&search=Portable%20Air%20Conditioner&N=0&Ntt=Portable%20Air%20Conditioner&cm_re=1_en-_-Top_Left_Nav-_-Top_search&lang=en-US
> ?
> ...


Going with this guy (but getting it for $500):

http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Conditioner-Heater-Dual-Hose/dp/B0018DKYTK

Also, forgot to mention that I think there's a good chance that there's another 15 amps/120V running in there without me doing anything (75 amps, all 120V), which thoroughly covers my power needs - although flowering with 1Ks would limit me to 2-3 lights, whereas using 600s I could squeeze 8-9 in there in summer, and 11-12 in winter. I think with me getting dialed in, 2000 watts should be plenty for me for flowering.

Gonna do a circuit test within the next couple of days and determine what outlets run off of what breaker - I think that bottom left circuit that says "Garage Spot Lights" most likely also feeds an outlet or two in the garage.

View attachment 732420


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## DaGambler (Mar 1, 2010)

if it weren't a dual hose i'd tell you to save ur money... i have no experience with those. i would guess they work much better than a non-dual hose portable a.c. unit.

the normal 'portable a.c.' units are complete crap, though. They pull so much air into the room you have to have a separate room air intake (not a sealed room) just to run them. And they blow so much air straight outside that you may as well just be sucking un-conditioned air straight through the room.
.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 2, 2010)

DaGambler said:


> if it weren't a dual hose i'd tell you to save ur money... i have no experience with those. i would guess they work much better than a non-dual hose portable a.c. unit.
> 
> the normal 'portable a.c.' units are complete crap, though. They pull so much air into the room you have to have a separate room air intake (not a sealed room) just to run them. And they blow so much air straight outside that you may as well just be sucking un-conditioned air straight through the room.
> .


So whadya guys think? Think two of those portables could keep my 10x15 area cool?

Certainly the 24K could, right?

Also, if the answer to question #1 is "no", would I be better off making one of the ACs a window unit? They're a little more rugged and heavy duty and could withstand hotter intake temps, right?

Trying to get something ordered fairly ASAP, would love some input..........


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## cazador (Mar 2, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Going with this guy (but getting it for $500):
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Portable-Conditioner-Heater-Dual-Hose/dp/B0018DKYTK
> 
> ...


HD sells a tester for a breaker box and outlets. You plug it into an outlet and go to the breaker box with the probe and it tells you which breaker it is connected to. Label all outlets and switchs with the appropriate breaker number. That way it is all clear and you wont overload anything. Your starting to add a nice load to the breakers too, so I would suggest you make sure your load balancing correctly? You have 2 - 100amp lines coming into the house and you want to make sure your not loading one up too much. You don't have to worry about it when running 220v as it is already riding on both 110amp lines. Make sence? Just trying to help and keep you out of trouble. I'm still suggesting you use 220v for anything that will run on 220v.



DaGambler said:


> if it weren't a dual hose i'd tell you to save ur money... i have no experience with those. i would guess they work much better than a non-dual hose portable a.c. unit.
> 
> the normal 'portable a.c.' units are complete crap, though. They pull so much air into the room you have to have a separate room air intake (not a sealed room) just to run them. And they blow so much air straight outside that you may as well just be sucking un-conditioned air straight through the room.
> .


excellent point!



Bob Smith said:


> So whadya guys think? Think two of those portables could keep my 10x15 area cool?
> 
> Certainly the 24K could, right?
> 
> ...


Not sure about the 14K BTU A/C being able to do a good job in there. I would again go with a 240V A/C if I had the choice. I am not sure at the moment how a window A/C would be best installed so that it will exhaust the heat properly. Shouldn't be a real hard thing to figure out though. The condensation should be easy enough just attach a hose to drain.


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## statik (Mar 2, 2010)

My buddy and I installed a window AC in his old room by cutting into the wall (made our own damn window) something kind of tells me the GF would flip out if you busted out the Ol' power tools and started hacking into the side of the garage though...women...


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## Bob Smith (Mar 2, 2010)

statik said:


> My buddy and I installed a window AC in his old room by cutting into the wall (made our own damn window) something kind of tells me the GF would flip out if you busted out the Ol' power tools and started hacking into the side of the garage though...women...


Yeah, unfortunately that's just not much of an option at this point, although it wouldn't be my girl who cared - too much of a security risk.



> HD sells a tester for a breaker box and outlets. You plug it into an outlet and go to the breaker box with the probe and it tells you which breaker it is connected to. Label all outlets and switchs with the appropriate breaker number. That way it is all clear and you wont overload anything. Your starting to add a nice load to the breakers too, so I would suggest you make sure your load balancing correctly? You have 2 - 100amp lines coming into the house and you want to make sure your not loading one up too much. You don't have to worry about it when running 220v as it is already riding on both 110amp lines. Make sence? Just trying to help and keep you out of trouble. I'm still suggesting you use 220v for anything that will run on 220v.


I'm totally with you, and would prefer to use 220; I'm just VERY hesitant about running extra wires through walls and whatnot.

How long would it take you to turn an existing 110V to 220V? How much work is actually involved?

Because I have more confidence in running a 24K window AC than I do in running two 14K portables for keeping temps down.



> Not sure about the 14K BTU A/C being able to do a good job in there. I would again go with a 240V A/C if I had the choice. I am not sure at the moment how a window A/C would be best installed so that it will exhaust the heat properly. Shouldn't be a real hard thing to figure out though. The condensation should be easy enough just attach a hose to drain.


I'd buy one to start out with, but during install, would prefab somewhere for a matching one to be installed as well.

That'd be 28K BTUs of cooling, which should theoretically be plenty of overkill - but again, not knowing how well those portables work hurts.

Also like the flexibility of having two 14Ks vs. 1 24K window unit.


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## statik (Mar 2, 2010)

Yeah, I knew it wasn't going to work in your case...but I thought I would bring it up. Fortunately my buddy lives in a quite town in Nor Cal, so security is not really a concern...for the most part anyway.


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## cazador (Mar 3, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, unfortunately that's just not much of an option at this point, although it wouldn't be my girl who cared - too much of a security risk.


You could mount the window A/C on the roof of the structure your going to build inside the garage and vent it out that gable vent that magically showed up.




Bob Smith said:


> I'm totally with you, and would prefer to use 220; I'm just VERY hesitant about running extra wires through walls and whatnot.
> 
> How long would it take you to turn an existing 110V to 220V? How much work is actually involved?


It's not to hard running wires but it sounded like you already have the wires running. You just need to identify *exactly* where they go. To turn an existing line from 110 to 220 takes about 20 mins(approx). The hard part is making sure you know *exactly* how the line is run. The process to switch from 110 to 220 is so easy you'll think it can't be that simple. Any line can be converted to 220V. All you do is make sure you know all the outlets that are connected to the line(circuit) and label them 220V or better replace them with the proper 220v outlet so you or someone won't be able to plug the wrong thing into them in the future. Now open your breaker box find the line you want to switch from 110v to 220v. Take out that breaker and replace with a double pole breaker of the correct amperage for the line in question. Reconnect the black wire and then remove the white wire from the neutral/ground bar and connect it to the other pole of the new double pole breaker. your done! (now I do this live but have to suggest that you *kill* the "*main power"* (top 2 breakers that has 100amp printed on it)

Now that I said all that your garage/shed line sounds like it is already set up, just need to identify where/how it is run. The breaker is there and the line is going somewhere in the correct direction.



Bob Smith said:


> Because I have more confidence in running a 24K window AC than I do in running two 14K portables for keeping temps down.


 I hear you on this one but I'm think the portables will do the job too. I do like the idea of two small ones if you have the room and cash. There will be times that one might be perfect? you will need to plumb the condensation to drain to something.



Bob Smith said:


> I'd buy one to start out with, but during install, would prefab somewhere for a matching one to be installed as well.
> 
> That'd be 28K BTUs of cooling, which should theoretically be plenty of overkill - but again, not knowing how well those portables work hurts.
> 
> Also like the flexibility of having two 14Ks vs. 1 24K window unit.


Yea that dose sound good too.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 3, 2010)

cazador said:


> You could mount the window A/C on the roof of the structure your going to build inside the garage and vent it out that gable vent that magically showed up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Grrrrrrrr................I forget who said it, but someone on this site said that controlling temperature/airflow while also being tasked with controlling odors is the hardest part of indoor growing.

I'm starting to agree with him.

Also Caz, not sure I'm able to turn that garage/shed line to 220V because there are some light fixtures that run off of that, so I'd need to do it to one of the new 110V lines that I had installed.

That being said, how difficult are we talking?

And BTW, spoke with a portable air expert for about 15 minutes on the phone today, and he (I was shocked at his honesty) said that basically a portable won't do what I need it to do, and two of the same (14K) unit won't do anything if the intake temps are too hot (which they could be, on some/many days).

So, I need anywhere from an 18-24K BTU window unit to really cool it down.

Gonna mount it on my "structure", and put a Rubbermaid under it to catch any condensation.

Just need to figure out this wiring situation...............if I can't (I'm sure I could, but if it involves lotsa shit that I'm not crazy about doing), then I could (and will) go with two smaller (14K) window ACs that can run off of 110V.

Gonna partition the garage into a 15x10 enclosed room and a 5x10 "dead space", and gonna get a LARGE centrifugal fan (1000CFMish?) to exhaust the dead space, and use a 425CFM for intake, hopefully keeping it <95F 97% of the time so that the ACs have a reasonable chance at working correctly.

EDIT: I'd obviously be exhausting filtered air and intake-ing clean (outside) air through that "Gable vent". The "dead space" would be ~500 cubic feet (5' by 10' by 10'), so I think that even with the heat produced by the AC(s), exhausting the air twice a minute (1000CFM fan) should be able to keep those temps relatively close to outside temps and therefore allow the ACs to work fairly well, no? Anybody got a guesstimate as to if this would work?

Would also be running the majority of the HID lighting (2500ish watts) at night, so that even on hot days, the outside temps would be at about 80F when the second AC needed to kick on.............


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## cazador (Mar 3, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Grrrrrrrr................I forget who said it, but someone on this site said that controlling temperature/airflow while also being tasked with controlling odors is the hardest part of indoor growing.
> 
> I'm starting to agree with him.





Bob Smith said:


> Also Caz, not sure I'm able to turn that garage/shed line to 220V because there are some light fixtures that run off of that, so I'd need to do it to one of the new 110V lines that I had installed.
> 
> That being said, how difficult are we talking?


Well that's good to know. I suggest that you remove the bar keeping these breakers together as this is clearly installed incorrectly. 

Now I am assuming your talking about working on breaker spot #17 with the two 20amp breakers. is this correct? 

Of course it would be easier if I could stand in front of the breaker box... The difficulty I see is that you need to move things around a bit to fit in the needed double pole breaker...never mind that for now, see if you have enough line from either breaker in spot #17 to reach the top empty spot on the left make sure the white wire paired with it reaches too. If so then that is where you'll put the new half-height 20Amp double pole breaker or in spot #17 once one of them is moved up. Then connect the black and white wires to it. Make sure you have nothing plugged into the line anywhere and label the plugs and then turn the breaker on and your in business. You can also change the other line into 220v if needed/wanted as you now have the unused breaker next to it.



Bob Smith said:


> And BTW, spoke with a portable air expert for about 15 minutes on the phone today, and he (I was shocked at his honesty) said that basically a portable won't do what I need it to do, and two of the same (14K) unit won't do anything if the intake temps are too hot (which they could be, on some/many days).
> 
> So, I need anywhere from an 18-24K BTU window unit to really cool it down.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a more robust way to go IMO.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 4, 2010)

cazador said:


> Well that's good to know. I suggest that you remove the bar keeping these breakers together as this is clearly installed incorrectly.
> 
> Now I am assuming your talking about working on breaker spot #17 with the two 20amp breakers. is this correct?
> 
> ...


Damn, I really need to rep more people, I guess - everytime I wanna rep somebody, I've already repped them recently (smoking, that goes for you as well).

Anyways, that was a long-winded way of saying "thanks Caz" - gonna lay off the wiring for now, and see what I can come up with.

They have 15.1KBTU ACs (window) that can run off of 110V, so I'm probably gonna pick one of those up (although I might do a 14K off of Craigslist if it makes sense financially).

After that, I'll probably get a 14K portable for spot cooling closer to my actual flowering plants, and call it a day.

Gonna order a 1000CFM fan as well sooner rather than later.

Now I need to do some pre-fab work (I sound like such a handyman when I use terms like that) and get my flowering tent all setup and ready for this next run.

Dropping outta site for a little bit, and I'll be posting the link for the new journal within a couple of weeks.

Thanks everybody 

P.S. - if anyone knows of any handy tips/links for building an insulated wall with a door, please feel free to post


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## cazador (Mar 4, 2010)

Anytime. Don't through in the towel to early. I do believe you'll be happier getting the 220v going, either for your lights or the A/C. Both will run more efficient using higher voltage. The ballasts will run cooler, the A/C will be stronger and both will last longer. Not to mention you'll have more amps available with less lines? My 3k of lights running on the same wire: 110v = 27.3amps or 220v = 13 amps. Now you see, that if I didn't switch the same wire (no new run) from 110v to 220v I wouldn't be able to run the 3k lights on a 20 amp circuit I'd be over by more than 7 amp. now that I switched to 220v I have a very safe margin in fact I'd split off a110v leg at the lights and run a few low watt fans too. All on the same line that would have be way maxed out otherwise or I would have had to run a new line (pain in the ass and not as cheap). Making any sense?

As far as building an insulated wall. Just get a HD framing book. Frame out the structure put up your inner walls insulate between the studs and put up your otter walls. Hanging a door can be a bit tricky to get perfect. the easiest way is to get a pre-hung door. I went to a rebuilding store and picked up a great office door 7'+ tall hard, wood, glass (viewing window so I can look inside without letting CO2 out). $20 new it would have been over $1000 I was hard not to use it on the house. Maybe one day. 

Looking forward to your new thread. Good luck. call if you need help


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## Bob Smith (Mar 15, 2010)

Lol, what a verbose asshole I am, but I just happened to notice that and thought it was kinda funny.

Anywho, just thought I'd share a quickie update of where I'm (my ladies are) at......



Here's the bottom of my veg (flowering for the next two months) tent - there's a real hodgepodge (sp.?) of plants in there, gonna take a clone or two off of each strain in the next couple of days, and flower them out under fluoros - at least gimme a tease of some of the new strains (Ice, AK, and Master Kush) that I haven't flowered yet (gonna make hash with the weed, most likely).





And here's the 72 Super Skunks up top under the 400 - probably veg them for about another couple of days (they're abut 6-8" tall right now, would like about 8-10") and then flip - still trying to stay really vigilant about maintaining an even canopy, which is why all the shorties are in the center.




Just another batch of horrible looking clones..........really fucking hating rockwool at this point (although I'm pretty sure I need to get thermostats for my heating pads, as I think that's where the real trouble lies).

Anywho, wanted to go with 144 Bubblelicous, but with some of them being so shitty, had to revise that plan and go with 45 Indica bagseeds and 97 Bubblelicous (142 as opposed to 144 because of the drain fittings).




Although they look uber pitiful from above, the root systems on them were pretty decent, so all was not lost.



Here's a random shot of the roots that were coming out of the bottom of one of the trays fromm under the 400........pretty strong and healthy, IMO.





And here's what those clones look like in their newest home - the front three trays are the bagseed, the rest is the bubble.

So that's about it; figure I'll flip the switch on the SS and the plants under fluoros within a couple of days, and continue to veg the 142 for (best guess) another two weeks before I flip the switch.

Since the SS should take an extra week or two longer, that means that everyone should be finishing up right around May 31st.

Not sure when I'm gonna start a new journal up - conflicted between starting in a couple of weeks when I flip the switch on the 142 or waiting longer and starting it up around May 1st when they're a month in with a month to go.

Anyone's advice is welcome.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 15, 2010)

Aerocloner is the way to go. No rockwool, no humidity dome, heating pad. 100% rooting fast and always. Cloning went from an irritating, laborious process to something I look forward to doing. I use the Botanicare machine. I think they make a 50 site cloner, you might have to go DIY for the numbers you are seeking. You can stick more than one cutting in each site though, so your mileage may vary.


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## Hulk Nugs (Mar 16, 2010)

table looks great with all the plants in there homes, this is what i am doing for my next grow


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## BooMeR242 (Mar 16, 2010)

glad i got a chance to stop in and checkup on ur grow. great update. glad to see ure still goin strong. ll have to take time and catch up but best of luck.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 17, 2010)

So after lots of careful consideration (as evidenced by the ten pages worth of posts regarding it), I've decided to say "fuck AC".

Just gonna run two more (powerful) centrifugal fans in and out of that gable vent (as Caz called it, so I assume that's what it's called ), and just do my cooling that way.

Have looked at the electric bill since I started this project, and the bill's up about 50 kilowatt hours a day, which is just not a very efficient use of electricity and I'm not gonna continue to do that - gonna change my veg time to 18/6 from 24/0, gonna be less crazy about using my dehumidifier, and I'm certainly not gonna add an 1800 watt AC to the equation, especially as I'm going to be adding 1000-1400 watts for flowering.

Have no problem using an extra 50 kilowatts a day, but adding an AC and more "flower power" wattage would get me up to a ludicrous number (bill has only gone from $120 to $200, but I'd like to keep it somewhat low-ish).

There are gonna be days/weeks where the temp gets up to 90+ in the garage (and some horrible days when it gets to 100F), but I'm just gonna deal with that, and with running the flowering room at night, I think the temps should at least stay "reasonable" for 95% of the year.


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## cazador (Mar 18, 2010)

Good call Bob. I'm not against the use of AC. I'm thinking about it myself too. But all works well without the CO2 and night time temps should be cool enough with the correct CFM air exchange to live without it. It's the day temps and the veg room that causes trouble in summer when hot. But if your keeping all the veg plants small until flower then floros work well while reducing heat somewhat.


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## statik (Mar 18, 2010)

I had an idea here guys, and I wanna through it out in Bob's thread since ya'll have been talkin cooling anyway. So we have mentioned the Ice box and a Chiller in the past. I am still going that route (as I already bought both). What I have been trying to figure out is how to get it to actually cool my tent. So I thought about it..I am already ducting the heat out the house so I don't need the Ice box attached to my lights ducting.

So I figured that by adding it (the Ice Box) onto the intake and setting it in my hut, under the grow table...and running off of my Sentinel. Then when the intake kicks on its cooling the inside of my hut. My chiller wont be fighting the heat from my light either. So it should be able to drop temps in the res. water no problem. Meaning the Chiller wont be running as often either, thus saving on power.

Thoughts guys? Think that's reasonable? I can adjust the res temp with the Chiller to make sure its not blowing too cold. Then have the Sentinel set to kick on the intake/exhaust when things get too hot.


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## cazador (Mar 18, 2010)

Should help out. I was thinking of getting two car radiators from the junk yard put one inside with a fan and drip tray and one just outside with another fan possibly a large res too not sure yet. Think it would work?
Sorry bob,.


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## statik (Mar 18, 2010)

Yeah, sorry for the hijack Bob. I just figured it kind of made sense since the main theme lately has been cooling.

IDK about that Caz, I'm not exactly sure how all that would be set up. I'm no mechanic...far from it. lmao


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## Integra21 (Mar 18, 2010)

Interesting Ideas guys. Let me know how it turns out.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 19, 2010)

Please don't ever apologize to me for hijacking this thread!!! 

There's actually some good ideas you guys have there, and reading what you guys wrote made me realize that there may be some cooling options available to me on days when it gets to 95F outside.........so please, talk away - it's good for all.

No pics, still struggling to keep the clones alive, but it looks like we're gonna make it - I'll throw some pics up early next week - have a good and safe weekend everybody


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## smokingrubber (Mar 19, 2010)

statik said:


> I had an idea here guys, and I wanna through it out in Bob's thread since ya'll have been talkin cooling anyway. So we have mentioned the Ice box and a Chiller in the past. I am still going that route (as I already bought both). What I have been trying to figure out is how to get it to actually cool my tent. So I thought about it..I am already ducting the heat out the house so I don't need the Ice box attached to my lights ducting.
> 
> So I figured that by adding it (the Ice Box) onto the intake and setting it in my hut, under the grow table...and running off of my Sentinel. Then when the intake kicks on its cooling the inside of my hut. My chiller wont be fighting the heat from my light either. So it should be able to drop temps in the res. water no problem. Meaning the Chiller wont be running as often either, thus saving on power.
> 
> Thoughts guys? Think that's reasonable? I can adjust the res temp with the Chiller to make sure its not blowing too cold. Then have the Sentinel set to kick on the intake/exhaust when things get too hot.


That's exactly what I'm building. EXACTLY... except I'm going to use the TV-2 controller for the fan, and I'll hook up the sentinel to the ice box water pump for cooling. That way the fan kicks on high when it gets warm but it's always on low at least. I'm going to do that for two 4x9 tents and one 4x4 tent in a garage. The garage will get a little warm because of the chiller, but I'll run a seperate exhaust (and fresh air intake) just for the garage. If we don't open the tent too much then we should be able to keep it Co2 saturated with bottles pretty easy.

My only problem is going to be 6 ducting lines for the lights and 2 ducts for the room exhaust, all running up into the attic.

I know I've been talking about building this setup for at least 2 months. We have been buying equipment. We've got everything except the 4 hoods. I'm trying to buy the Blockbuster hoods and they're on backorder. They said they're being redesigned by the company, so we might as well wait for the new design. The chiller is supposed to arrive on the same pallet. We've got all of the electrical installed: New 100 amp sub-panel, 2 240v boxes and 8 new 110v plugs. Each plug has it's own circuit!

Anyway, we should have everything set up in the next 2 weeks. Let's hope so, because tonight we are going to germinate the seeds. The baby seeds can do their thing on the side for the next two weeks while we get the tents ready. We're getting close.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 19, 2010)

smokingrubber said:


> That's exactly what I'm building. EXACTLY... except I'm going to use the TV-2 controller for the fan, and I'll hook up the sentinel to the ice box water pump for cooling. That way the fan kicks on high when it gets warm but it's always on low at least. I'm going to do that for two 4x9 tents and one 4x4 tent in a garage. The garage will get a little warm because of the chiller, but I'll run a seperate exhaust (and fresh air intake) just for the garage. If we don't open the tent too much then we should be able to keep it Co2 saturated with bottles pretty easy.
> 
> My only problem is going to be 6 ducting lines for the lights and 2 ducts for the room exhaust, all running up into the attic.
> 
> ...


Never heard of "Blockbuster" hoods, but the Magnum XXXL I got is pretty official - the fucker is almost as large as the 4x4 table it's covering.

Not sure how set you are on those hoods, but I'd imagine there's not much dropoff (if any) in productivity from a Magnum, especially if the hoods are backordered.


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## smokingrubber (Mar 19, 2010)

Does the Magnum have hinged glass? I have the Cool Sun XL hoods with the hinged glass, and the Blockbuster is the improved version with better light pattern (and the same hinged glass).
http://www.planetnatural.com/site/blockbuster-reflector.html


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## Bob Smith (Mar 19, 2010)

I don't believe it does (although I'd imagine the glass is fairly easy to remove and clean, which I guess is what you're going for), but I've never taken it out so I'm really not sure.

I can tell you with a large degree of certainty that the Magnum will beat the pants off of that reflector that you linked - in terms of coverage, that reflector is 25x25 and the Magnum 8" is 36x30 - since they're made by the same company, I'd assume the quality is equal, so all else equal, you want a bigger reflector - can get it closer and keep the footprint larger.

That being said, I'd be lying if I said that it was easy to install Magnums in tents because they are so fucking big, so if you're more comfy with the Blockbuster, I'm sure that'll workout fine for ya.


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## smokingrubber (Mar 19, 2010)

Since I'm going to be vegging for a few weeks in the tent, I will need to swap out the bulbs fairly often. Two screws and the whole glass swings down, makes opening the hood EXTREMELY simple. It's just a well thought-out design. The larger size would be preferred, except I also need to fit the carbon filter and two 18" oscillating fans in there. I would have to do some CAD to see if that would work.

If 2 weeks comes and goes, and they don't have the Blockbuster in stock yet, I'll be looking for different hoods.


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## Integra21 (Mar 19, 2010)

That hinged feature is real nice. Both of my super sun II have it. Cleaning couldnt be easier. I didnt even know it was a feature when I ordered them. I feel you Smokingrubber, Now that I've had this convieniance, I dont know if I'd want a hood without it. Glad the clones are still coming along bob. Still waiting paitiently to see how you decide to set up the room and get them girls going. Not saying hurry up, just letting you know you still have my interest sparked. I'm just afraid if mine weighs out, you might change your mind again. I am really curious to know what 3 plants, a 600w light, and an average yield strain can produce.


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## Bob Smith (Mar 26, 2010)

Hey all, not dead but am I having some issues with Rollitup - haven't been able to log in for a while and keep on getting a "database" error, which is tweaking me out a little bit and stopping me from posting pics.

Had to top half the clones in the veg tent because I dragged my feet too long on setting up a temporary vegging room to keep my genetics, so that's kinda a shitshow (not really, but you'll see). The flowering tent clones are really starting to come around though, which is a good thing - gonna flip the switch on the Super Skunk as soon as I get my temp veg chamber setup (early next week), and hopefully within about ten days on the flowering tent.

Ordering a 6" filter for my veg tent, and I think a 10" inline and filter to exhaust the entire garage out the gable vent. Still not sure if I'll be okay with passive intake or if I should have a 425CFM fan for intake - would love anyone's input on this. If passive intake then I can't tarp up the garage and make it totally sealed, but smell shouldn't be an issue because air would constantly be coming through all the little holes and whatnot.

Anyhow, super busy but have been setting aside some time each way to do some work in there so these two harvests can go down without too many issues.

Since posting pics is a bitch, I'll make a movie and post it here within a couple/few days.

Hope everyone else is doing well.


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## statik (Mar 26, 2010)

I know it sucks, but I am GLAD I am not the only one having issues with RIU Bob. Same database error on my end. I just got to log in for the first time in 2 days! I set up my icebox/chiller the way I mentioned earlier...and its working GREAT! Temps dont get above 83! Chiller kicks on once in a while, runs for 5 minutes or so and that's it. Fans kick on and the air coming out the ice box is a nice 68 - 70 degrees. They run for about 5 minutes and my hut is back down to 78 to 75. It's already hit about 90 out towards the grow pad..so I think I'm good for the summer.


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## Integra21 (Mar 26, 2010)

it think something was going on with their server. I have been having the same problem off and on for the last couple of days. Hope it was just for maintenance(usually the reason normal sites go down for a little), but with these ones you just never know.


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## wonderblunder (Mar 27, 2010)

About the ventilation questions. Trial and error is the way to go. I have had no better success than changing directions of fans, modify ducting, etc, and waiting and seeing. In a world you can't hardly see, the unforseeable things can happen. 
Sounds like you got it going. Ooh, just reminded me of some new toys I want to show.........


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## Bob Smith (May 16, 2010)

Hey everybody - hope you're all doing well.

I'm still alive, just been obnoxiously busy dealing with all kinds of stupid shit, not the least of which is this fucking test I have in three weeks.............anywho, enough chit chat, here's a quick sampling of 142 plants in a 4x4 tent...........fucked if I know how long they've been flowering for - 4 weeks maybe? 5 weeks? That's why I keep my journals online........if I don't then I have no fucking clue about dates.


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## mrgranddaddypurple2 (May 16, 2010)

good to see you back bob


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## HookedOnChronic (May 17, 2010)

damn nice bob 142 single cola plants or wat?


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## wonderblunder (May 18, 2010)

Looks like a lot of trimming...... would love to be doing it though........


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## Bob Smith (May 19, 2010)

wonderblunder said:


> Looks like a lot of trimming...... would love to be doing it though........


Yeah, thinking about just getting an automatic trimmer - my local shop has them for $900, so it might be a good investment.

As far as the popcorn goes, I'm gonna make hash with that and the trimmings (because I was too lazy to trim it weeks ago and lollipop all the plants).

Gonna try to take clones tomorrow off of them as I have ZERO vegging plants right now, so if I can't cut clones from them I've gotta start all over again from seed - might actually reveg a couple of the weaker plants that are in the corners to ensure I at least keep the genetics.

HookedOnChronic, yes, that's 142 plants in 4" square pots in hydroton.


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## statik (May 19, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Hey everybody - hope you're all doing well.
> 
> I'm still alive, just been obnoxiously busy dealing with all kinds of stupid shit, not the least of which is this fucking test I have in three weeks.............anywho, enough chit chat, here's a quick sampling of 142 plants in a 4x4 tent...........fucked if I know how long they've been flowering for - 4 weeks maybe? 5 weeks? That's why I keep my journals online........if I don't then I have no fucking clue about dates.


Gonna beat that last grow for sure Bob. Its funny my man, we got a lot on common. I am currently 4 or 5 weeks into flower...not sure which. If I dont keep an online journal I too will lose track of where I am in my grow. At least some dated pics on the PC..something. Anyway, great part is it doesn't really matter cause them little ladies got no problem telling when they are done.

Lazy, don't feel like reading back... what strains did you run with again this time?


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## Bob Smith (May 19, 2010)

statik said:


> Gonna beat that last grow for sure Bob. Its funny my man, we got a lot on common. I am currently 4 or 5 weeks into flower...not sure which. If I dont keep an online journal I too will lose track of where I am in my grow. At least some dated pics on the PC..something. Anyway, great part is it doesn't really matter cause them little ladies got no problem telling when they are done.
> 
> Lazy, don't feel like reading back... what strains did you run with again this time?


Lol, at least you've got pics with dates..........I don't even have that.

And it's ~45 of the indica bagseed, about 10 super skunks in the middle, and the remaining ~90 are Bubblelicous.


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## Integra21 (May 20, 2010)

Glad to see your still alive bob. I've been super busy myself and its hard to find time for all of the updates, so I feel your pain. This crop looks a lot better than the last one, so good work. Happy harvest whenever that comes around.


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## BooMeR242 (May 23, 2010)

ladies def lookin great and on track. ill be lurkin and waitin for harvest


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## Bob Smith (Jun 10, 2010)

So again, chopping because of demand - evidently there's lotsa Phish shows going on from June 24-26, so need to get the product to market.

Turned off the lights so they're gonna be sitting in darkness until tomorrow, and then I'm cutting them down.

No idea about yield, but definitely will beat my previous harvest.

Also, ordered some bubble bags and a bubble bag washing machine type deal off of Ebay, so I need to figure out what price to charge for hash.............any ideas?

Pics coming tomorrow when I start chopping.........


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## HookedOnChronic (Jun 10, 2010)

right on bob, pics tomorrow will be awesome i cant wait!! make sure to get a before shot of all 142 befrore the chop!


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## Integra21 (Jun 11, 2010)

Show me the pics, Im definetly interested in how this run turned out. I had to cut my last Blue kush harvest 2 weeks earlier than I wanted to because of a big 420 arty I hosted. But the herb was still great and the cookies I made from the hash can only be described as epic.


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## shnkrmn (Jun 14, 2010)

Hash versus cannabutter is something I've been wrestling with. Right now I'm leaning towards butter. It's a little more straightforward to make and a few months ago I made a batch of cookies and gave them away to folks and there was a big demand for them. Hash samples met with more mixed reactions. So I'm planning to sell amounts of butter with recipes included, to save the labor and materials for baking. I was only extracting say 10-20 grams of hash from my trim, but I can make 5 or 6 pounds of butter with the same amount. That's a lot of cookies!


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## Bob Smith (Jun 14, 2010)

Couldn't find my camera so no pics before harvest (but a bunch of the plants were falling over from the weight of the nugs, if that helps with the mental imagery).

Got a digi scale yesterday and have 14 ounces of trimmed nugs, and will probably trim up another two ounces from my pile of trimmings (pretty easy, just got tired and said "fuck it" while I was trimming) for an even pound.

Got my bubble bags delivered today, and hoping for the machine either today or tomorrow (will post pics of all that shit soon enough).

Sun Hut XL sucks (have broken tons of zippers off of it), so deciding what to do next.

Emailed some guy off of Craigslist who has another 1K and a 4x8 hut for sale, and might pick that up.

Also need to put in a 10 or 12" inline fan to suck hot air out of the garage, and am going to try and run an inlet into the garage from the crawlspace, where the air stays pretty constantly cool.

Also currently outta clones, as the ones I took a few weeks ago seem to not want to root (but I haven't given up on them yet) - that being said, popping some beans tonight (not sure which to pop, am open to suggestions).

Would love to go vertical but with so many other issues to handle first, that might need to be put on the back burner.


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## Integra21 (Jun 14, 2010)

shnkrmn said:


> Hash versus cannabutter is something I've been wrestling with. Right now I'm leaning towards butter. It's a little more straightforward to make and a few months ago I made a batch of cookies and gave them away to folks and there was a big demand for them. Hash samples met with more mixed reactions. So I'm planning to sell amounts of butter with recipes included, to save the labor and materials for baking. I was only extracting say 10-20 grams of hash from my trim, but I can make 5 or 6 pounds of butter with the same amount. That's a lot of cookies!


 Im not sure how many batches of butter or hash you have made, with with me the numbers are flipped. I made butter on 4 previous occasions with results below what I expected. Each time I used a garbage bag full of good quality trim and only made 1-2 pounds of butter and every thing I made with itt was fairly weak. The cookies I made every time took a minimum of 2-3 cookies just to get a good buzz. So on the last harvest, I said screw it and made bubble hash. This was my bigest harvest so there was naturally more trim this round(3 garbage bags). The first set i did was of strait leaf trim and I got 28 grams of hash, the second batch was all popcorn nugs and I got 36 grams, and I still have to do the third bag which is all leaf trim again, and I expect to get about an oz of hash from that as well. So off a a 2 pound harvest I got roughly 3oz of hash. I dont know about you , but Id take 3oz of hash over butter any day. The main reason being, every time I made butter, it was always moldy before I could use it all. The hash has a much better shelf life. And I was sick of having to eat several cookies to get a good high, so I decided to give it a shot with my hash. I put 3.5g of hash into 2 sticks of butter(what the recipe calls for) and used it in the standard recipe for chocolate chip cookies on the back of the chocolate chips bag. I must say, doing it like this, I got the best cookies I had ever made, and the feed back from my friends was it was the best eddible they had ever eaten. Eating an entire cookie was 2 much. It made my wife sick and my buddy got to sick and missed Skybox Blackhawks Final playoff game from one. Got it figured out that 1/4 of a cookie messed you up in a real nice way and lasted for 4-5 hours and 1/2 of a cookie turned you into a total zombie and left you messed up for up to 8 hours. So personally, I like hash because it is more versatile(can be smoked or used in cooking) and has a much longer shelf life and is easier to store just on size. Hope this helps with your decision. If you use my hash cookie recipe, I hope your ride is as epic as mine was. 


Bob Smith said:


> Couldn't find my camera so no pics before harvest (but a bunch of the plants were falling over from the weight of the nugs, if that helps with the mental imagery).
> 
> Got a digi scale yesterday and have 14 ounces of trimmed nugs, and will probably trim up another two ounces from my pile of trimmings (pretty easy, just got tired and said "fuck it" while I was trimming) for an even pound.
> 
> ...


 Shitty about the clones. Did you try lowering their pppms and re-adjusting the ph? I know whenever my clones arent rooting, I cut the ppms in half and ensure the ph is proper(5.8 for me) and then I usually have roots in under a week. Kick ass on the bubble bags, If the washer doesnt work out, just use a regualr hand mixer(kitchen appliance) on the lowest speed. If you want to know exactly how I do it, let me know and I'll give a detailed description. Cudos on the harvest, much better than last time. Did this run give you a better idea on how many clones you want to run per batch? Ant that cooling sounds like it might just do the trick and be a whole lot cheaper than your last couple of ideas. I hope that works out for you. Keep up the good work Bob and find your damn camera, I want to see that set up of yours full of bud on the next round. I just wanted to throw a couple of pics of my hash in here...


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## shnkrmn (Jun 15, 2010)

Nice balls there, for sure. I think my hash-making skills must be deficient. I'd love to learn to make hash like that. 50 grams of quality trim, though, will make strong butter, maybe not 1/2 cookie zombification but certainly one cookie will paralyze the unwary. And it stores well in the freezer.


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## Bob Smith (Jun 16, 2010)

Yowsers.........as far as deficient hash-making skills, I believe I take the cake.

80 grams of primo joint/blunt/what-have-you rolling shake turned into 5.5 grams of hash.

Fucking pathetic - gonna finish off the next 80 grams from last harvest and see if I can't do any better.

Made a video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfPH6LfNJIQ


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## Bob Smith (Jun 16, 2010)

Firstly, a clone or two is starting to root, so that's a positive that I won't have to start from seed again (although I'm gonna and find a couple awesome mothers) - Integra, the issue I had was that these clones were taken a month+ into flowering, so they're super-slow rooters.

Secondly, meeting some dude off of Craigslist to buy a massive carbon filter and another 1K for a couple hundred dollars tomorrow.

Now I just need to talk to my girl about getting the rest of the garage cleaned out (the only things "growing" in there are the clones, which can easily come inside) - gonna get the garage 100% straight empty (like we're moving empty) and then look at what I have to work with and make a video about what my plans are for making the room (obviously will post a link for the video here).

As far as what system I'll be constructing, I'm pretty sure it's the vertical octagon design by Blastido (but I'm gonna make it taller and have two 1Ks in there as opposed to two 600s).

That's all for now - hope to have the garage cleaned out within a week-ish, which includes breaking down all the tents, equipment, etc - gonna be a pain in the fucking ass.


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## Indefinately (Jun 16, 2010)

Hey Bob

I have read the last 20 or so pages.
Have to dedicate a few days to start from the beggining of the thread.
Love the idea of the Vertical grow.

I was looking at Heath's Vertical grow some time ago.
Thought i would leave it for now as it was'nt as easy as other methods. ( Maybe one day in the future).

Here is ome information i was loking at.
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/149998-heaths-flooded-tube-vertical.html
http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17863

I will be following this thread closely.......
All the best,


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## wonderblunder (Jun 20, 2010)

Will you enlighten us with a link to Blastidos? I am convinced vertical is the way to go.... WIsh I had room for an octagon..... Looks like I will be hanging some bare bulbs here in between some larger plants.......


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## wonderblunder (Jun 20, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Yeah, thinking about just getting an automatic trimmer - my local shop has them for $900, so it might be a good investment.
> 
> As far as the popcorn goes, I'm gonna make hash with that and the trimmings (because I was too lazy to trim it weeks ago and lollipop all the plants).
> 
> ...


Have you seen that DIY trim pro using a metal bladed fan. They removed 2 of the 4 blades(keeping it balanced of course) and improvised a screen closer to the blades that the leaves will slide through.... Youtube is where I saw it.... Then had the fan facing down into a vented trashcan looking deal.... If I did it I would do 2 stages.... or just 1 and then manually trim the good stuff for saving(these guys were mixing their fan leaves with the good trim).......


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## Bob Smith (Jul 21, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Firstly, a clone or two is starting to root, so that's a positive that I won't have to start from seed again (although I'm gonna and find a couple awesome mothers) - Integra, the issue I had was that these clones were taken a month+ into flowering, so they're super-slow rooters.
> 
> Secondly, meeting some dude off of Craigslist to buy a massive carbon filter and another 1K for a couple hundred dollars tomorrow.
> 
> ...


Lol..........so the post above that I wrote a month ago? Just pretend that I wrote it today - we're starting, people.

Gonna empty out the garage and then build a TOTALLY sealed (no intake or outtake, simply a door) 12x8 (and shooting for 9' tall) room with an El Blastido octagon and a veg chamber.

If anyone knows of any SIMPLE software that I could use to design the layout I'm all ears, but that Google Sketch shit is WAY above my paygrade.

Wonder, that trimmer that you're talking about is exactly what they have at my hydro store - supposedly you just brush the bud up against the fan a couple times and you're golden.

Also, here's a link to the octagon - http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17863

So I'm budgeting about $2K for this, but I'm sure I'll go over - doing this as professional grade as possible 

EDIT: forgot to mention that I've been on the lookout for used GI Grows, Rotogrows, etc., and would change my budget if I could find one of those for a reasonable price - really want one, but $5K is kinda silly, IMO.


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## Integra21 (Jul 21, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol..........so the post above that I wrote a month ago? Just pretend that I wrote it today - we're starting, people.
> 
> Gonna empty out the garage and then build a TOTALLY sealed (no intake or outtake, simply a door) 12x8 (and shooting for 9' tall) room with an El Blastido octagon and a veg chamber.
> 
> ...


 sweet. get that shit up and running bob. The Better homes and garden software is pretty sweet, it looks complicated, but if you watch the tutorial video, you see its not that tough. It is ment for building design ,so it makes it easy to do actual wall thickness and plan out your power and otherwiring and will even give a cost estimate on the job. you can easily find and download it from torrent sites. Just did a huge bud porn update on my log, you should swing by and check it out. Good luck on this build bob.


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## wonderblunder (Jul 24, 2010)

I like the sounds of all Got to love being a DIYer. Looking forward to what you got going.... I am all setup in a new room running a few 1kwers


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## Bob Smith (Jul 28, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> sweet. get that shit up and running bob. The Better homes and garden software is pretty sweet, it looks complicated, but if you watch the tutorial video, you see its not that tough. It is ment for building design ,so it makes it easy to do actual wall thickness and plan out your power and otherwiring and will even give a cost estimate on the job. you can easily find and download it from torrent sites. Just did a huge bud porn update on my log, you should swing by and check it out. Good luck on this build bob.


Lol, that shit sounds way above my skill level, but I appreciate the thought.

Below is a status update; sorry for the long-windedness and lack of pics.

As far as where we stand today (have pics but can't find the cord for my camera) - pretty impressed with the amount of progress I've made; the garage is pretty well all broken down (save for the veg tent), now just need to sell some of this shit to get it outta here (tents, ballasts, reflectors, trays, etc.).

Gonna run 4 600s stacked vertically around an El Blastido octagon, but with two more levels than he had.

Room is gonna be 12x8 and ~8' tall, +/- a few inches on all counts (housing both veg and flower areas).

Gonna crawl down into my crawlspace tomorrow and put a thermometer down there to get a temp check - been 90F+ for the last few weeks here, and I'm really, really set on being able to use airflow for cooling and dehumidification (as well as "heat" during the winter, when the garage can get down to 20F), as I'm not really looking to arouse any suspicion from the electric company and the AC, dehumidifier, and heater would burn about as much juice as the lights would, which isn't very efficient, in my eyes.

Hoping for a reading of ~65ish, which would just be fucking lovely, but realistically I could "manage" with a reading up to ~75 (I think).

Planning on having a 435CFM fan pulling from the crawlspace and then a 750CFM fan for exhaust from the 12x8 "enclosure" - gonna insulate THE FUCK outta the enclosure, and that fact coupled with the fact that I'll be exhausting air from the enclosure into the garage (hopefully bringing ambient garage temps down to around 85-90ish) should (again, hopefully) allow me to keep the enclosure <=80F during the day (lights off) and <=85F at night (lights on).

Of course, this depends on how cool the crawlspace can stay with me constantly pulling air from it, but there's a really isolated corner which I think would hold it's temp pretty well down there, so I've got my fingers crossed.

Worst comes to worse I'll just have to either 1) deal with temps higher than "optimal" for a few months a year, or 2) just not run during the summer.

BTW, I've searched the Internet far and wide and watched youtube construction videos for hours on end, and still don't have much of a clue as to how I'm gonna construct this insulated room - if anyone had a link or some good advice, I'm all ears.


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## Bob Smith (Jul 28, 2010)

And obviously, anyone's thoughts regarding the feasibility of my crawlspace idea and or the chances that it will work are also more than welcome.

Have also given some thought to putting a reservoir down there and using ice boxes, but again, that would require a dehumidifier, which would pull another 1K watts and piss me off.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 1, 2010)

Not sure if anyone's really checking this thread anymore, but I figured I'd give anyone checking an update.........so the garage is almost ready for construction to start - took a shitload of throwing stuff away and moving stuff around, but I've almost got a clean palate to work with.

So, about another hour of moving stuff around, sweeping everything down, and then construction's gonna start tomorrow.


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## Integra21 (Aug 1, 2010)

Cool. Lets get this show on the road. Are you framing out a room fot the grow or going back to the tents?


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## Bob Smith (Aug 1, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Cool. Lets get this show on the road. Are you framing out a room fot the grow or going back to the tents?


A little of both, actually...............building a 12x8 room (about 8' tall) and that's gonna house both veg and flower areas.

Flower tent (4x4) was sold yesterday, but I think I'm gonna keep the veg tent inside the room.

Starting construction tomorrow, gonna build the 12x8 base and then take some measurements for height.

Not in a killer hurry as I only have four plants going right now and it's gonna take a month+ to get the clones I'll need, but I'm also trying to get this banged out quickly for a bunch of tests and whatnot before any plants go in there...............shooting to be done framing by the middle of the week, and then it's a matter of installing installation, exhaust, electrical, etc.

FYI Integra, you still remember how to change a 120V to a 240V? Gonna run three 1Ks in my flower area, and have three 20amp/120V circuits I could use to power them, but if it's easy to change one circuit to 240V and run all three lights on that circuit, it's probably a worthwhile change to make.


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## Indefinately (Aug 1, 2010)

Hey Bob

Im still watching closely in the background.
Looking forward to seing your new op fully opperational..............

Good Luck!!


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## mrgranddaddypurple2 (Aug 1, 2010)

hey man i read your last grow on here and i am building a room right now so i will we be reading for tips


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## Bob Smith (Aug 1, 2010)

Just crawled back into the crawlspace to check out the temp/humidity sensor I left down there - was ecstatic to see air temps of about 65, but that was accompanied by humidity in the high 80s (although it did rain today).

So that's good and bad; sounds like I can keep it cool in there using crawlspace air, but unfortunately probably gonna have to use my dehumidifier as well (consumes 600 watts).

Currently researching if there's a desiccant type filter I can put on as a prefilter for my 6" inline which will be blowing from the crawlspace - that'd be money as shit if I could remove a lot of the humidity before it got to my box.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 3, 2010)

Okay, well I said I was gonna make this my design/construction thread, and I am.

So here goes.

For all those just tuning in, I have a garage which is "kinda" insulated, but gets dummy hot in the summer (like 100F) and dummy cold in the winter (like 20F).

So in order to grow the danky dank that we all want, I need to control my grow area a little better (although the quality of my first two runs was very good, I know the second run could've been better with better temp control).

An issue I have is that there are no windows in my garage, and having a mini-split is not acceptable for security reasons (we all don't live in Cali, bishes), so I had to be creative.

I think I might've found the solution in my crawlspace - the temp down there is 68F right now, and that's in the dead of summer when outside temps are 90F+ here.

Going to build a 12x8 room in the garage (bout 8' tall) to house both my veg and flower areas (flower will be a DIY Coliseum with either 2400 or 3K watts, depending on responses I get in this thread), and gonna try to run it pretty much sealed with Ice Boxes, a reservoir (thinking a 37.5 gallon insulated marine cooler), and a 1/2HP chiller (both the chiller and rez will be located in the crawlspace, which is 67ish right now and will probably get down to 50-55F during the winter, so keeping an insulated rez at 60F shouldn't be too difficult).

To do this (i.e., for a 1/2 HP chiller to be able to cool that room), gonna need temps in the garage to not get too much above 85F even on the hottest days, which I hope to accomplish with a 4" inline (175CFM) pulling air from my crawlspace and a 6" inline (425CFM) exhausting that air through a gable vent in my garage.

So the task for today was to run 6" ducting from the crawlspace to the garage, which turned out to be a pain in the ass.

The pics are pretty self-explanatory; broke a couple of saw blades trying to cut, and had to go buy a more powerful drill to fit the 6" hole saw and almost broke my arm (I'm a large man, but wasn't ready for the torque of a 10 amp drill).

Long story short, got it done, and it ain't professional grade, but it gets the job done.

Tomorrow, gonna setup the 4" inline for intake through that ductwork, and gonna setup the 6" inline with filter for exhaust through the gable vent.

If I get that done early enough, gonna start building the 12x8 base for the room inside a room.


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## wonderblunder (Aug 3, 2010)

People have lost arms from 1/2" drills..... I got one with handles on both side you can run like a jack hammer, and another handle on the back for certain situations....


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## Bob Smith (Aug 3, 2010)

wonderblunder said:


> People have lost arms from 1/2" drills..... I got one with handles on both side you can run like a jack hammer, and another handle on the back for certain situations....


Lol.........mine came with a handle as well for leverage, and I thought to myself "what kinda pussy needs a handle for a drill?" 

Dar, dar.

Anyhow, running to Home Depot in a minute to grab some stuff, but while I'm here I figured I'd post the rough budget/plan - FYI, I hope that my conservative estimates mean that I'll come in under budget (i.e., find a chiller off Craigslist, etc.), but we'll see:

Budget:Octagon600Wood/screws/nails for 12x8 room300Insulation (temp and sound)300Filter150Ballasts630Cooltube700Bulbs85Ice Boxes300Chiller800633GPH Pumps (4)140Subtotal:4005Miscellaneous:50ft. Coil hose20Float valve25Tarp100Subtotal:145*Total:**4150*

*EDIT: Didn't paste from Excel like I would've liked, but I think you can figure it out if you try.*


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## wonderblunder (Aug 3, 2010)

I bet you can come in under the budget. Heck of a list there.... You can always find ways to spend money on additional neccesities......


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## Bob Smith (Aug 3, 2010)

wonderblunder said:


> I bet you can come in under the budget. Heck of a list there.... You can always find ways to spend money on additional neccesities......


Yeah, but the goal was to do this setup as inexpensively as possible and then buy all the fixin's after the first harvest, like tri-meters, etc.

Dealing with a fucking computer virus all day today which has basically made my progress nil except for a two hour trip to Home Depot where I figured some things out.........gonna try to do something for the next hour or two, but I don't have high hopes.

Fucking loser ass hackers writing viruses, get a fucking life.

Okay, I'm over it now..........back to work - pic update tomorrow.

EDIT: but inexpensively doesn't mean cheaply; for instance, that's why I'm going with the expensive ass cooltube instead of ghetto-rigging something myself outta individual cooltubes........wanna get the "meat" or "substance" of the room done now, and then "pretty it up" with automatic dosers, tri-meters, and other nifty little gadgets after I recoup some investment.

DOUBLE EDIT: Besides the two things mentioned above, I'm definitely interested in a notification device for when anything in my garden is not right........they have it for a certain environmental controller brand, but I'm looking for a standalone unit.

Was thinking of getting security cameras for inside the garage, but that seems silly to me because I really couldn't ........unless I had them pointed at my monitors and I could remotely check them from my Blackberry, in which case they'd be the shit.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 4, 2010)

So I did a lot of work today with not much to show for it.........the place I thought I was gonna be able to exhaust out of (the large gable vent) turned out to be a non-starter, so after drilling holes in three more locations I finally found something that I THINK I can make work, although it's directly in from of my garage door and was loud as fuck today when I ran it without the filter hooked up to the back.

Anyhow, I'm fucking exhausted right now, so just check out my new video instead of me typing.........

Can't paste for some reason, so do a search for "sogbobsmith" on youtube and look at the latest videos.


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## wonderblunder (Aug 4, 2010)

I think with what you are doing having a purchased cool tube over some DIY would be more ideal. I will take a look at the Youtube.... Sounds like things are moving in your world... I dont have any time to spend in my room except for a few minutes in the evening.....


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## Bob Smith (Aug 6, 2010)

Firstly, decided to go with 4 600s vs. 3 1Ks - easier to cool, lower electrical cost, more efficient, and I wouldn't have to have an electrician come in and change a circuit over to 240V like I would with the 1Ks.

Assuming I can get dialed in with 4 600s vertically, that'll produce more than enough for my purposes - would love to get to a 1lb. a light, and anything more than that will be icing on my cake.

Secondly, decided to say fuck the chiller and ice box idea - just seems like too much of a hassle to do all that shit in the crawlspace with no guarantee that it'll work and the much larger startup costs vs. an AC ($2000 vs. $500), so I've decided to go with a 14K portable AC.

A lot of people say that portables suck (and they very well might, I've never used one), but I'm confident that in a well-insulated room and with drawing in air from the crawlspace that is AT MAX 70F (during the height of summer, and more like 55F for the other nine months), the 14K could cool down that room with little to no problem.

The benefit of it doubling as a 100 pint dehumidifier (doubt my 25 pint could hold up, so I was gonna have to buy a larger dehumidifier with the chiller setup) is an added bonus.

I'm definitely planning on utilizing that cool crawl space air, but I'm going to do it in a simpler fashion - just put as large a reservoir as I can fit down there (probably have to plumb some smaller ones together) and run a Hydrogen CO2 generator - I think exhausting the heat into a 150-200 gallon reservoir would do a lot to lower the AC needs in there.

So the plan for today is to finish with the intake and exhaust fans and then finish cleaning up - the next step is getting some wood in here and building the motherfucker.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 8, 2010)

Lol, so decided not to go with intake and exhaust fans - just too fucking loud, and stealthiness is kinda big to me.

Planning is still going, but without having even a lick of construction/planning experience, it's slow going and the plan is always changing.

Have now decided that I'm just gonna frame out the back portion of the garage and make that a sealed room, as opposed to building an entire room within a room - there's a beam in there and some garage door braces that made building an 8'+ tall room impossible.

Also would've been stupid cramped in there with everything I was gonna try to fit, so more room is clearly better - gonna be about 15'x10' now, roughly.

Don't do much during the weekends as that's the only time I see my girl (she works crazy hours during the week), but I'm heading to HD tomorrow and buying some wood to start framing.

*FYI, also have 4 600 dimmable ballasts, 4 Super HPS bulbs, and 4 socket/mogul sets on the way that I ordered yesterday (my productivity for the weekend).*

*Question - ANYONE KNOW A GOOD METER TO BUY TO MEASURE LIGHT INTENSITY?*

Was gonna go with the Hydrofarm, but that only goes up to 5000 foot candles - is that sufficient?

_Gonna set up the lights roughly how they're gonna be and then take some readings to figure out exactly how large I can make my octagon - I think I can make it a lot larger than El Blastido's design - at least one more plant site (if not two more) per level, per "side".

If only one more (which I guarantee I can do), then it will be 126 sites; if two more, which I *think* I can do, then it'll be 168 sites - don't wanna "overlight" my octagon and kill a lot of the yield I could get with proper sizing and spacing._

Will take some pics of the start of contruction tomorrow - gonna need some input from some people who know what they're doing because I'm fucking clueless.


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## wonderblunder (Aug 8, 2010)

I use the hydrofarm light intensity meter... I had to do a little research to fully understand foot candles, but it certainly does the job.... and no batteries to replace ever! Fans are loud, I am having noise issues as well,


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## Bob Smith (Aug 9, 2010)

I started framing, barely - in my defense, pretty tough to do a lot of the things I do by myself, and when you throw in my total lack of knowledge about construction, I'm surprised I get anything done.

Real quick - since I ramble so much (for my benefit to review at a later date), I'm gonna start bolding and making the font larger of important things that someone skimming can pick out rather easily.

Now, here's some pics:

Mounted a 7' 2x4 about 9' off the ground on either side; gonna run a 10' 2x4 and connect them across the garage door; the total structure is gonna be 14x10 (will end about where that black mount on the wall is - that's my Sentinel mount); need to figure out how to best fill in the large gaps in the drywall (drywall mud, methinks) and under the garage door - Great Stuff?; and then there's a pic of some Super Skunk clones who will help to populate the octagon on its maiden voyage - thought you guys would get a chuckle that they're right in front off my closet, when we came to this site to get away from closet grows.

Truthfully, it's fucking hard to hold up a 2x4 with one arm, drill with the other, change the drill bit with one hand, and then screw it in, so mounting those two took me a while.

*Ordering my AC tomorrow* - can't really finish the ceiling framing without knowing what I'm doing with the AC (really how loud it is, because if it's not that loud I'll exhaust it where I had planned on putting my exhaust fan to keep temps down in the garage).

Also, after some reading last night from Ddoc (the inventor of the Coliseum and Cage, etc.), I had some doubts about the root space that 3" PVC would afford to the plants - *looking around in Home Depot today (when I bought the wood), and have decided to go with 4" PVC wyes (but which have a 3" opening)* - about $3 more expensive per wye and about double the cost for the other fitings (waste T, etc.), so that's gonna increase the octagon cost from about $700 to closer to $1500.

Oh well, would rather pay more up front and make sure the fucker works than try to save some money and end up with a $700 piece of shit.

Also, and don't ask me why I'm so stupid I didn't realize this before, but I just realized last night that I can run 5 (if not 6) 600s in there - gonna wait to see what temps get like when everything's set up, *but certainly going to run 5 600s in the fall, winter, and spring when heat's not that big a deal.*

And finally, since I realized that I can run many more than four lights (and also because I'm trying to stay away from inline fans and the noise they produce), *I'm putting the cooltube idea on the back burner for now* - for some reason I think a large axial fan blowing straight up would remove just about all the heat, but I'm gonna try it out and will go to a cooltube if I need it.


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## Integra21 (Aug 9, 2010)

Im not sure what fans you are using, but with proper mounting and placement, they are almost silent. I use a 6" can fan on full speed, and you can only hear a slight hum if the house is completely silent, and thats only when you are literally standing on top of it. What do you guys use and how loud is it?


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## Bob Smith (Aug 9, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Im not sure what fans you are using, but with proper mounting and placement, they are almost silent. I use a 6" can fan on full speed, and you can only hear a slight hum if the house is completely silent, and thats only when you are literally standing on top of it. What do you guys use and how loud is it?


I have all Valuelines - it's just where I was trying to exhaust (above my garage door) is directly on top of people who would be entering my kitchen.

Pretty much no fan that would be quiet enough for that application, unfortunately...........plus in my totally sealed room, I have no desire (and hopefully, need) for any inline fans.

Might have one steadily running through my 6" Phresh filter, but that'd be about it.

Integra, making a video now for you and will post the link to my other journal (or just find "sogbobsmith" on youtube) - wanna get on the same page with what I'm trying to do and how feasible it is.

Video will be online within a half hour.


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## Integra21 (Aug 9, 2010)

OK. Ill try to check it out, Hoping of in a minute, ut if I dont get to it tonight, I will for sure tomorrow.


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## Indefinately (Aug 10, 2010)

Hey Bob,

Where in the world are you?


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## Bob Smith (Aug 10, 2010)

I'm at home - where are you?


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## alexonfire (Aug 10, 2010)

Great thread dude, I just finished watching your videos. 
Just a word of advice for your signature so people can find where you started your new construction and build instead of wasting time to look for the post #. Copy this into your signature please


```
[url="https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/263751-vertical-growing-36.html"][b][color="Red"]New Construction and Build[/color][/b][/url]
```


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## Bob Smith (Aug 11, 2010)

Hey Alex, thanks for stopping by - not gonna put that in my sig and am actually gonna leave my sig blank (as I had it for a while, then recently put it back).

Anyhow, have thought about it and am going to try to have the beams correctly (vertically) positioned across the ceiling for a little more sturdiness.

Still plugging along, progress is slow and steady.

Also, since my cloning skills seem to have taken a dive - they've been yellowing on me and shit, *so rather than humiliate myself by reading up on cloning and figure out what I'm doing wrong, I just ordered an EZ-Clone 120*, and depending on how many plant sites the octagon ends up holding and how I like the first one, I'll most likely get a second one within a month.

Gonna need ~240 clones to get this octagon filled to its potential (either 126 or 168 sites) with all superstar clones - I think October 1st is a reasonable date to shoot for (two week's veg, 10 week flower, harvest right around New Years).


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## Bob Smith (Aug 12, 2010)

Girl worked from home yesterday so I thought I'd actually have a helper in the garage, but she had conference calls and shit all day so that didn't pan out - however, I've told her that I own her this weekend, so I should make a lot of progress (hopefully).

Decided that having an exposed fluoro in front of my closet prolly wasn't the best move to get vigorous mothers, so bit the bullet and setup my little tent inside.

Was looking for my reflector hangars (can NEVER find them when I need them) when I thought "why not just take the bulb out and hang it vertically? Be a nice intro to vert lighting, if nothing else".

So I did (see pics below); the central AC had tripped its circuit and it was 83F in the house when I took the initial temp readings (96), but even with the house at 72 the thermometer in the tent is reading 82.

Still early, but I'm thinking that reflectors work WAY better in tents because they trap the heat from the bulb and make it mucho easier to vent out of the tent - bare bulb just lets that heat go wherever it wants, and keeping temps in check is much harder than I would've thunk.

Have a 4" (170CFM) for exhaust and passive intake, and temps are ~7 degrees warmer inside the tent than the room it's in.

This issue has also made me rethink whether the 14KBTU portable I ordered will be able to keep temps in check, and I'm fairly certain (during the height of summer, anyways) that the answer is going to be "no", but obviously time will tell - the cool intake air should help, as well as insulating the fuck outta everything, but we'll just have to run it and see.

As long as I'm thinking of it, anyone have any idea how many BTUs a 600 digi ballast puts out? Could put the ballasts in my crawlspace, but then I'd have to go down there when I wanted to dim them, etc........a MASSIVE pain in the ass, but if the BTUs removed are large enough, might just be worth it.

That being said, need to utilize the cool air in the crawlspace better if I wanna really get a handle on my temps, and I think I've come up with a solution - *planning on plumbing ten of these together under the crawlspace, giving me 200-225 gallons (I'm assuming, not sure how much water I can fill in each) of cool water.*

http://www.homedepot.com/Storage-Org...3#BVRRWidgetID

Not gonna run a cooler and am simply gonna let the cool air below the house cool it - that being said, here's my question - *would it make more sense to utilize that cooling power on two 8" iceboxes or a Hydrogen CO2 generator?*

I don't believe I could do both because I'd worry about the Hydrogen heating the water up to a point where the iceboxes would be blowing hot air, so I'm thinking they're mutually exclusive.

*Before I forget, ordered my digital lux meter yesterday - goes up to 200K lux (brighter than the sun) and some equivalent number of footcandles, so it's a pretty badass model.*

I know some people are thinking "Bob, you just like spending money", but I'm thinking you only really get one chance to setup a room right, and I wanna really have my ducks in a row on this one, *so the original $4K budget is out the window (octagon alone will prolly run $4K) - trying to keep it under $10K, but whatever needs doing is what needs doing, costs be damned*.

Oh, also found some spider mites on the bitches, so sprayed them down with that organic green shit.

And the clones hated the bare bulbed 400; gonna have to put them back under fluoros until they pop some roots - they were not happy this morning after being in there all night.

Oh, also have read a couple of places that you can "double up" on your EZ Cloner, so my 120 can really be a 240, which would be nice (both for space savings and money savings).

As long as this is the longest post of all time, lemme continue - *here's my reservoir/system idea*:

Okay, so ten MPB totes plumbed together - thinking 1" tubing should be enough to keep their water levels equal, although 2" would work much better, in all likelihood.

From there, run 1/2" tubing (via a 800-1000GPH pump) up to an insulated marine cooler located inside the grow room.

Run 1" (if not 2") tubing back to the reservoir at the other end of the bucket system, making the water constantly fllow through the totes when the system is on - the 1" fitting will be located higher on the cooler than the 1/2" to keep water in there when the pump is not on - also gonna have a backflow preventer (a check valve?) so water will stay in the cooler.

And that's about it; either run a Hydrogen or two iceboxes from that cooler and call it a day - I like being able to access the reservoir if I want to "ghetto cool" it (throw some frozen water bottles in the cooler) on really hot days or something like that.

Sorry for the rambling.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 17, 2010)

*So anyways - framing the roof tomorrow, but I have a couple of questions:

1) Would you go with 16" or 24" spacing? I'm definitely leaning towards 24" because this shit doesn't need to be "up to code", but if someone has a good reason 16" would be better, I'm all ears.

2) What would you use for the actual ceiling? I'm thinking thin-ish plywood, but that's gonna be pretty expensive for as much as I need - is there something else (not drywall) that you guys would use instead?

3) What insulation would you guys use for the ceiling? Since I'm laying my beams across the "proper" way, I'll have a 4" gap between the top and bottom of the ceiling (if that makes any sense) - thoughts?

*Thanks guys.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 18, 2010)

Still gonna give it a couple of hours before I put the stove back to make sure, but it works and I don't smell anything so far 

Ahhhh, what a nice feeling






Took me a few hours from start to finish (4 trips to HD, thank God it's only five minutes away) and used ungodly amounts of that Pro Dope shit (but not so much that it'd clog the pipes).

Pictures are pretty self-expanatory, but lemme know if anyone's got any questions - pretty cool that I just did that, feeling damn handy right now






Website is not letting me upload pics, Jesus.


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## don2009 (Aug 18, 2010)

Cool thread Bob O. Learning alot.


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## wonderblunder (Aug 19, 2010)

Nice nice..... Interested to see how things take shape Bob, Having a hard time visualizing what you got going here, I do love construction at any point though....


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## Bob Smith (Aug 19, 2010)

wonderblunder said:


> Nice nice..... Interested to see how things take shape Bob, Having a hard time visualizing what you got going here, I do love construction at any point though....


Gonna try to post pics again......seems like it worked.

Gonna do some overhauls on the veg tent because I can't seem to keep temps up top down...........reworking some things and getting ready for the EZ Clone 120 to go in there today.

Gonna try to start the ceiling framing, but I've got a lot on my plate today so no promises.


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## Knickers (Aug 19, 2010)

Subn

don't stop the music.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 19, 2010)

Knickers said:


> Subn
> 
> don't stop the music.


Good to have you along, should be fun - building shit sucks because I'm so bad at it, but once the room is finished I get to play with all my new toys 

About to order my Marey Tankless Water Heater (basically a Hydrogen Water-Cooled CO2 generator) - would've gone with the Hydrogen (price isn't much more, and I'd rather support a good cause) but they stopped making a natural gas unit (which I didn't realize until this morning).

Also, I can claim a 30% tax credit on it (and installation costs) because it's an energy efficient device - you gotta love that


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## shnkrmn (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi Bob, I run digital 600's. They put out virtually no heat at all. Especially compared to a magnetic ballast. They shouldn't heat your crawlspace up at all.

Roofing material; sheets of masonite are much cheaper than plywood and should work for your application.

HTH.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 19, 2010)

shnkrmn said:


> Hi Bob, I run digital 600's. They put out virtually no heat at all. Especially compared to a magnetic ballast. They shouldn't heat your crawlspace up at all.
> 
> Roofing material; sheets of masonite are much cheaper than plywood and should work for your application.
> 
> HTH.



Now that's the kinda input I'm looking for - thanks for that, man 

Even though I raised the budget to 10K, I'd still like to not waste money, which $30 sheets of plywood for my ceiling would've done, IMO (would've cost ~$500 for the wood).


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## shnkrmn (Aug 19, 2010)

You are welcome. I used masonite to construct a grow chamber a couple years ago. And I priced plywood too. The difference was amazing.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 19, 2010)

Anyhow, made a couple of changes - chopped 1' off of the table legs in the tent, giving the plants some more headroom (up top, obviously) and hopefully helping temps out in there.

The bigger change to deal with the temps was setting up the exhaust fan to actually pull through the light instead of just pulling random tent air out.

Anyhow, got my EZ 120 today - thing's pretty big, and for someone who's never used aero, it's kinda cool seeing how much water it moves around.

Took about 15 clones (only Super Skunk, thinking I'm gonna ditch the bagseed, but only if I have enough SS clones) - pH is 5.8, and TDS is 200 (threw in a touch of Superthrive to my 150TDS water).

Oh, also pulled my pH and TDS meters outta hibernation, and my pH meter was fucked to all hell - going from jibberish to 18+ (a mythical pH) and generally all over the place. Anyhow, took out the piece of paper that was on the left side (across from the round glass thingy), and it seems to work now - calibrated it a shitload, and I don't necessarily trust it, but it's showing 7.0 and 4.0 when it should.

Calibrated my TDS pen and that was straight, didn't even need to adjust it.


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## wonderblunder (Aug 19, 2010)

Nice cloner..... Masonite is some good stuff.... Looks like things are a happening....


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## Bob Smith (Aug 23, 2010)

Ceiling is framed, now I just need to frame out the front wall with the door and then I'm gonna start drywalling - shooting to be done all the major work by the end of this weekend, then handle the "leftovers" (plumbing, setting up the natural gas heater, working on sealing the garage door).

Didn't do much this weekend, but ordered the Marey 10L water heater, an electric solenoid to run it off my hose, a new pH meter, and some random other shit.

Will get pics up tomorrow of my progress - can actually see the light at the end of the tunnel.

Also, EZ is running pretty hot (low 80s), but that's because the room/tent it's in is running too hot.........was about to order a chiller for it, but then realized that water temps (most likely) won't be an issue when its in its permanent home.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 25, 2010)

Before my laundry list of questions and things to do, *just thought I'd mention that I've now decided that I'm gonna run a 1K over my 4x4 E&F table next to my octagon ("out in the open", not in a tent or anything - want the light overlap) *- figure I can run head strains on there, determine what genetics are worth keeping, etc. - basically, have decided that I've gone through too much fucking work to only be running 2400 watts in flower.

Also, in case anyone's wondering why I have that massive DeWalt table saw, I bought that thinking it was made to cut wood - it's not, as evidenced by the burned piece of 2x4 that you see. Oh well, $200 down the drain.........I'm a moron, but I will use it to cut some PVC, so it's not a total loss.

1) You can see that the door is in its frame and it opens and closes fine, but I haven't screwed it into anything yet - *do I just throw some screws in it from the inside and attach to the 2x4s it's resting agains?*

2) *The door is clearly designed for 2x6s and not 2x4s - is this a big enough problem to worry about?* Seems to swing open and shut fine without even being screwed in yet. BTW, that thing is a steel door, heavy as fuck, and I had to try to fit it into that space off the ground solo - was a SERIOUS pain in the ass.

3) AC got delivered - it's pretty damn heavy.

4) *Anyone got any good ideas about what to do with the actual garage door?* I guess I could build a frame around it and drywall, but that sure seems like a lot of work - anyone got a better idea?

5) *Does anyone know if I can hang drywall from the ceiling, even though the ceiling is at 24" instead of 16" spacing?* I could move it to 16" relatively easily if I needed to, but since the drywall would only be holding insulation on top of it, was wondering if I could get away with 24" - anyone have some input?

6) *Anyone know what I'd need to drill through siding (like siding on your house)? *Need to drill a hole to run some PVC out and am wondering what kinda bit I'd need. On that same note, anyone know how hard it'd be to drill through a gutter?

So, things I still need to do before drywall:

1) Install plumbing - going to run ~1" PVC from the room, through the wall and siding, and straight into a gutter - don't want neighbors wondering why there's hot water creating steam from my garage in the middle of winter.

2) Seal up the garage door - some way, some how, gotta get that done.

3) Run a "T" off of the hose outlet so that I can use that water line to do my drain to waste CO2 generator and also to use my R/O filter.

4) Make a little 1' tall by 10' long panel to place under the door/4x4 for the insulation/drywall - gonna be a pain in the ass because that cement is SO uneven and not level.

5) Secure the ceiling 2x4s with screws (the boards are just "loose" in the joists right now).

6) Spackle and "Great Stuff" all gaps/leaks.

7) Install door knob/lock/etc.

Other than that, plants are looking well - starting to see "nubs" on the clones in the EZ, which to me indicates that roots should pop within the next coupla days.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 25, 2010)

Sorry for all the door pics, but that's a HEAVY steel door that I mounted myself, about a foot and a half off of the ground - kinda proud of meself with all the construction work I'm doing.


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## Integra21 (Aug 25, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Before my laundry list of questions and things to do, *just thought I'd mention that I've now decided that I'm gonna run a 1K over my 4x4 E&F table next to my octagon ("out in the open", not in a tent or anything - want the light overlap) *- figure I can run head strains on there, determine what genetics are worth keeping, etc. - basically, have decided that I've gone through too much fucking work to only be running 2400 watts in flower.
> 
> Also, in case anyone's wondering why I have that massive DeWalt table saw, I bought that thinking it was made to cut wood - it's not, as evidenced by the burned piece of 2x4 that you see. Oh well, $200 down the drain.........I'm a moron, but I will use it to cut some PVC, so it's not a total loss.
> 
> ...


 Hey Bob, Nice to see its coming along. Now lets get down to business.

First, that is a good saw, it just looks like you have the metal cutting disc in it. You can double check with the manufacturer with just the model number, But you should just be able to pick up a wood blade at the hardware store for $10-$20.

Second, for drilling through the siding,you just need a standard bit that is a little bigger than the pvc. It should say wood, plastic, metal on the drill bit wrapper. And if you have to go through an entire wall(siding, wood, drywall) wou will want a 10"-12" bit to make it all the way through. Dont forget to silicone around the hole to seal after the pipe is installed.

Last, for the garage door, you could just great stuff expanding foam all the way around it, but when it comes to ear down time it will be a bitch to get all that shit off. Wut it will make a good seal and be fairly cheap and easy to do. Just a thought. Otherwise doing a full plastic wrap and tape job will work also and will still be cheap, but much more work. Probly almost as much as framing and drywalling to get it all done perfect, but thats all I got. Good luck and I look forward to the next update.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 26, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Hey Bob, Nice to see its coming along. Now lets get down to business.
> 
> First, that is a good saw, it just looks like you have the metal cutting disc in it. You can double check with the manufacturer with just the model number, But you should just be able to pick up a wood blade at the hardware store for $10-$20.
> 
> ...


Thanks for checking in and for the tips 

Since noise is almost as big an issue to me as smell, gonna frame it out and do the garage door right with some insulation - I don't want anything to feel "temporary" in this room, and some great stuff (which is awesome, BTW) and panda would give it that feeling to me.

And regarding the saw, the blades (they're 14") that they make in that size for cutting wood are $200 each...........seeing as how I'm just about cutting wood (and I went out and bought a circular saw 20 minutes after I bought the table saw), probably just gonna use that saw to cut my PVC and then give it away or sell it on craigslist or something.

Getting close to octagon time - hoping to run my light meter test this weekend so that I figure out the dimensions of the octagon so I can order the "wyes" - not sure what kind of lead time they're gonna need for 126 of them.


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## Indefinately (Aug 26, 2010)

Hey Bob

Well done with all the work your completing.....
I really didnt realise untill i got involved in this "hobby" how much would be involved in each project.
&
How F#$%ING hard it is to do shit by yourself.....
Well done with all the work you have completed so far. 
Im keen to see it all done and flowering like Krazy....

Q: Do you have to exhaust the air to a seperate area outside the "grow room" once it passes through the carbon filter?

I have purchased a Thermostat to control temps by cooling the room by exhausting hot air outside the "grow room". If i connect the carfbon Filter to that then the room will have strong odor as the thermostat will not have the cooling on often enough to remove the odor........Im really confused

Thanks for your help Bob ( check out my thread below )


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## Bob Smith (Aug 26, 2010)

Indefinately said:


> Hey Bob
> 
> Well done with all the work your completing.....
> I really didnt realise untill i got involved in this "hobby" how much would be involved in each project.
> ...


Lol..........yeah, doing all this work by myself is especially hard on me, who (unfortunately) never really touched a tool in my life until I restarted growing last year (there's a pic somewhere in this thread of when I clocked myself in the head with a hammer, if you want a chuckle).

And as far as the cost goes, tell me about it - have no clue how deep I'm in, but it's gotta be getting close to $15K...........and so far I've gotten about 20 ounces from my investment (feel free to laugh)...........but hopefully this newest project will be the last major investment for at least a year or two and the room can pay for itself many times over in that time span.


But to your questions - if you're asking me specifically what I'm going to do with my filter, I'm actually going to have it on the end of my portable AC exhaust, as I've unfortunately heard that they exhaust some stink from the room (sucks, but I'll deal with it) - probably gonna attach a little duct booster in line with the exhaust to try to restrict the air flow as little as possible.

In all honesty, the issue you're dealing with sounds like exactly what I had to deal with over the winter - I was in a tent where the fans never came on and the smell became a large issue - I actually ended up just removing the ducting from the exhaust fan and just letting it run continuously inside the tent (pulling through the filter), where it got rid of a lot of the smells - also used two ozone generators in conjunction with that setup.

The smell (and the pain in the ass of filling CO2 tanks) combined with the temps I was facing in late spring/early summer necessitated that I ran my last grow with full intake/exhaust and no CO2 enrichment - really, really helped with the smells (like couldn't smell them at all, even right next to the tent).

Checking out your thread now.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 26, 2010)

Since I can't predict the order the pics are gonna come out, I'll just tell you what they are and you can match statement to pics.

1) Marey got delivered
2) Electric solenoid for Marey got delivered
3) I RAN PLUMBING!! (makes me happy




)
4) Cheapo pH meter got delivered - just needs to last for one grow, and then I'm getting a few trimeters
5) That big ass saw was useful for cutting PVC - almost fun, in a way
6) You can see how bad the clones are yellowing - guessing some kinda pH issue (couldn't check it until now, so I'll check it when I'm done typing this)
7) The stems are all bulbous and thick (2X as thick as they were pre-EZ) which to me (hopefully) indicates that rooting will be taking place soon
 Door is now fully installed - hadn't done the screws yesterday, but did today and it's working marvelously

As you can see, ran 3 "T"s to that drain line (3/4" PVC), allowing me to run the Marey, the RO filter waste, and a "general use" waste pump into the same pipe.

So that's about it for today's update - saw that 15/32 plywood is on sale for $15/sheet at Home Depot, so I *might* actually try to start installing the ceiling tomorrow.

Jesus, actually getting a little ahead of schedule on the construction.........now if only the plants/clones will cooperate and lemme start rocking and rolling on October 1st.

*Oh, with how much fun I had (seriously, it was pretty enjoyable) with the PVC today, I was giving some serious thought to building a Heath Robinson flooded tube vertical (or something similar) and dropping the "126 wyes" idea - anyone have thoughts on this? Would allow me customize the structure more and also be 1/20th the cost.*

As always, comments, questions and/or criticism is always welcome.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 27, 2010)

A couple of questions:

1) Does it matter if I have 6" thick insulation laying across the drywall on the ceiling? Since I framed it with 2x4s, there'd be 2" of insulation above the wood - that's not an issue, is it? The more insulation the better, no?

2) Anyone have any good ideas for the floor? Can't decide/figure out if I should paint it, try to tape panda to it, etc. Any input would be awesome - it's a cracked and uneven concrete floor.

BTW, checked the pH in the EZ and it was 7.8............drunkenly dropped 2 tablespoons of pH down in it last night, checked it this morning and it's at 5.2.........should rise to right about 6 and stay there, hopefully.

Also, posted a video just to kinda recap the updates I've done and also to ask some questions:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J7N4CeOjxxo


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## Knickers (Aug 27, 2010)

The insulation sounds fine to me, and I'd try to find some underlay to put on the concrete, then panda film on that.


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## rbahadosingh (Aug 29, 2010)

looking good Bob. I havent been on here in months. glad to see things are coming along nicely for you. Im retired now. no more growing until its legal.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 29, 2010)

rbahadosingh said:


> looking good Bob. I havent been on here in months. glad to see things are coming along nicely for you. Im retired now. no more growing until its legal.


I hope everything is going all right for you, man - it's a shame about the growing, but as long as you're happy and healthy, worse things have happened.

Thanks for checking in, man.


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## Bob Smith (Aug 29, 2010)

Below is an exchange that I had in my journal on that website...............

Originally Posted by *watercooled* 
OK man... you are NUTS! I like it.

No to the insulation sandwich! Just put the roof and insulate the top.

Yes to relocating that twist fluorescent to inside the the room (should take 20 minutes) and changing it out for a green party floro. Something like this: http://www.lightingsupply.com/SM11-GREEN.aspx

So you blow money here and there, why not just get a second A/C? As for a booster fan and carbon filter on the exhaust, I would worry about that since Carbon Filters loose effectiveness at higher temps. I assume the exhaust from the A/C would be higher.

As for your room being temporary... who are you kidding? That's not temporary! If you are serious about temporary, save yourself the hassle and cost. Buy as big of a tent as you can fit and cut your losses. If you come to terms with your permanent room, keep framing and get that garage door side of the room framed insulated and done!

Forget the Icebox ideas all together, you got too much going on!

You are spending SO much on this setup for PVC is it worth it? http://tampa.craigslist.org/hil/grd/1883878812.html Set it and forget it! And in case the add disappears... http://www.atlantishydroponics.com/D...-EcoSystem.asp

If you were my customer I would push you in that direction for a couple reasons, mainly you are loosing a lot of time and don't have much help for construction! I'm not sure you'll be done in time!

Here is what I recommend... 

1.) Grow some moms meng!!! put those in some bigger pots and help them get bigger. You're going to need them big regardless of where Mr. Fickle takes you! 
2.) Because you've already gone the route you've gone with A/C, stop f'n around and get a second one!
3.) Buy as big of a tent that will fit in your room. If needed, split into two smaller tents!
4.) Start growing again! Throw the two A/C's in the tent, drop the two eco systems in.
5.) Go to a psychiatrist to take care of your phonophobia, or just read up on duct mufflers... and while you're at it, get one in combination with a fan and charcoal filter:
http://www.horticulturesource.com/ad...e1ccff3f15da3f 
5.) Turn the A/C's on. Put that filter in the garage and vent it the outside to create the negative pressure in the room so it will remove the smell issues.

6.) If you bought the tents, take the wood you bought and that door and fuel a fire pit.. but on a serious note, take the A/C Vents and dump them into the bigger garage room. Take the carbon filter and put it *NEAR* the exhaust. Exhaust that vent to the outside somewhere.

AFTER you are up and running, go back to considering your sealed environment in the tents and decide if it's worth it over a bowl of freshly dried herb...







7.) Worry about what you will do to keep the room warm in a couple months when the lights are off! maybe run the two tents on a flop and maybe the heat from the lights would vent into the garage to help keep the space warm?

Once the room is up and running, spend 5 minutes on electrical sites and switch your own outlets to 220! Take pics of your braker box and go to the electrical threads on RIU or hit me up... Do this AFTER you are up and running!​Integra - still thinking about the floor, but I'm honestly leaning towards just scrubbing it as well as possible and filling in the cracks as best I can - you guys can not fathom how uneven that floor is, and any attempts to put something on top of it would be futile, IMO.

Watercooled, thanks for stopping in and the great ideas man - really, really appreciate it.

I'm gonna handle them in order, but real quick just to exphasize my fickle-ness - was tossing and turning last night until 6am considering different growing methods - went to horizontal aero scrog under light movers to horizontal sog, and then finally came back to (and settled) my original octagon idea at about 5:45am.

As far as the insulation goes, good to know - so "attic" (R-30, 6" thick) insulation laid across the ceiling "bare" would work pretty well for me? Just make sure it's pressed down well and I don't have to cover it?

As far as moving that ceiling light - hopefully that won't be much of a problem - not sure about how to move the "switch" to outside the grow room, but I assume I can figure that out - moving the actual light down should be as easy as unscrewing some screws.

Why do you think I need a second A/C? Last night (while tossing and turning) I realized that my idea of adding a 1K in there wouldn't work because of a lack of available power - so that's ~3000 watts (taking into account the veg tent and dehumidifier) being cooled by a 14KBTU AC - that should work, no?

Also, regarding the carbon filter - I agree that it sounds like a bad idea on the exhaust of the portable A/C, so here's the new idea:

Put my two ozone generators and the filter with fan in the garage where the dirty air gets exhausted to, and don't mess around at all with the ducting on the AC - allow it to dump "stinky" air into the small remainder of the garage, and have the filter and ozone generators located right where the exhaust comes out - sound like a plan with a reasonable chance of success?

I'm guessing that the "remainder" of the garage is ~600 cubic feet - what size fan would I need to make sure there's adequate negative pressure? I'd think a 170CFM fan would be sufficient, but I can step up to a 425CFM if that is needed.

Yeah, when I think about all the work I've put in (and the tons still to do), the word "temporary" doesn't seem to describe this endeavor - let's remove that word from our vocabulary. Gonna frame out and seal the garage door sooner rather than later.

Iceboxes are forgotten - too much work with too much risk of them not working.

Frankly, the building of the actual octagon should be pretty gosh darn easy - just cut PVC and glue the pieces together with the wye fittings - plus it'll be much cheaper (<$2K, no matter how big I end up going), and I'm starting to dig this DIY stuff - it's gotta make problems easier to solve if you've built it yourself, no? Long story short, sticking with the DIY octagon plan (for now




)

1) I'm trying with the plants, man - they were outside for a while and clones were taken VERY late in flowering, so they've been sickly from the start - however, the clones that rooted about 10 days ago are in dirt and doing great, so I think I might've gotten past the rough patch. The clones in the EZ look like SHIT, but they're from sickly plants and the water's too hot and the pH was outta wack for the first week because of a broken pH meter. In case anyone's wondering, yes, I'm wishing I wouldn't have bought that EZ - I'm drunk on eBay too much and linking your eBay to your Paypal so you only have to click your mouse twice and you've bought something is bad news for an impulsive person like myself.

2) Still waiting to hear about why you think I need a bigger AC - even though I have this one sitting in my kitchen, if there's a compelling reason it's not worthwhile, it's unopened and I can ship it back.

Also, for security reasons last night (and me thinking the AC could pretty easily keep up with the lighting), I was thinking of keeping the ballasts inside the grow room - guess I should definitely move them into the "empty" area of the garage, huh?

Honestly, still haven't totally given up on the idea of saying "screw" AC and going with a 6" 425CFM for intake and a 10", 1000CFM for exhaust - I wouldn't be able to keep the room in the same tight temperature band that I would with AC, but I'd also be saving about 1000 watts of power. The CO2 would get exhausted more often, but with a natural gas line in there, I'm not real worried about that.

3) Not sure what I'm doing with tents - might buy a 4x4 (even though I just sold mine like a dumbass) for my moms and clones - have them in a 2x4 right now but I don't think that's large enough mom area to get the # of clones I'm gonna need - gonna stick with a 400 watt light in either case, though.

4) I'm growing in my "workout" room right now in a 2x4 tent - it's all I've got available to me at this point - girl is not letting me take over any more rooms in the house. 

5) Definitely gonna need a duct muffler regardless of what direction I go with for cooling.

6) I'm on it






7) That's kinda what I was figuring - with (hopefully) how well insulated the room will be and the 400 watts from the veg tent running and with lights off during the day (when outside temps will obviously be warmer), I hope to get by without a heater - doubt temps are gonna get much below 65F, and I'm almost certain they'd never get below 60F.

And as far as switching the outlets to 220V, IF that's something I can do (don't think it is, electrical scares me and I'm not sure if I have the necessary breaker slots anyways), that'd definitely be something I'd do sooner rather than later - wanna try to get as much of this done before any plants go in there as possible - not trying to do major structural/electrical upgrades between harvests if I can help it.

Holy fuck, that post has GOT to be some kinda record.

Sorry people.

Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
....
As far as the insulation goes, good to know - so "attic" (R-30, 6" thick) insulation laid across the ceiling "bare" would work pretty well for me? Just make sure it's pressed down well and I don't have to cover it?​Don't Press it down. Leave it fluffy. If you wanted to you can go to HD, buy some spray in and rent the machine. It's a two person job and pretty messy, but it won't leave you itching. 


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
As far as moving that ceiling light - hopefully that won't be much of a problem - not sure about how to move the "switch" to outside the grow room, but I assume I can figure that out - moving the actual light down should be as easy as unscrewing some screws.​Yup, the bulb is easy. As for the switch, make sure you turn the breaker off and then dissemble it. You'll need some wire nuts (most likely the yellow ones) and some wire (16/3 will work fine) Get those at home depot and you'll see what I mean.


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
Why do you think I need a second A/C? Last night (while tossing and turning) I realized that my idea of adding a 1K in there wouldn't work because of a lack of available power - so that's ~3000 watts (taking into account the veg tent and dehumidifier) being cooled by a 14KBTU AC - that should work, no?​You are over reacting to electrical work. You are capable of framing out a room, throwing insulation, growing cannabis so the electrical work is easy! Make sure you turn off the breakers and do it! Keep going back to HD as needed.)

Again, you are not only cooling the light, you are cooling a hot and muggy garage as well. Drop the IB's and pay for an A/C!



Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
Also, regarding the carbon filter - I agree that it sounds like a bad idea on the exhaust of the portable A/C, so here's the new idea:

Put my two ozone generators and the filter with fan in the garage where the dirty air gets exhausted to, and don't mess around at all with the ducting on the AC - allow it to dump "stinky" air into the small remainder of the garage, and have the filter and ozone generators located right where the exhaust comes out - sound like a plan with a reasonable chance of success?​Yup! I would do it.


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
I'm guessing that the "remainder" of the garage is ~600 cubic feet - what size fan would I need to make sure there's adequate negative pressure? I'd think a 170CFM fan would be sufficient, but I can step up to a 425CFM if that is needed.​I like to oversize it. Go as big as you feel comfortable. The wattage difference is almost negligible.


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
... Long story short, sticking with the DIY octagon plan (for now




)​K


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
... I'm wishing I wouldn't have bought that EZ - I'm drunk on eBay too much and linking your eBay to your Paypal so you only have to click your mouse twice and you've bought something is bad news for an impulsive person like myself.​Impulse your way into a second A/C, a tent or two with a Carbon Filter and fan!







Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
2) Still waiting to hear about why you think I need a bigger AC - even though I have this one sitting in my kitchen, if there's a compelling reason it's not worthwhile, it's unopened and I can ship it back.​I'm assuming you really won't do a split A/C. Because of that, don't return it, just get another one. Again, you are not just cooling the lights, you are cooling a hot muggy garage plus the lights. If you go with what I'm saying you won't even continue framing!


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
Also, for security reasons last night (and me thinking the AC could pretty easily keep up with the lighting), I was thinking of keeping the ballasts inside the grow room - guess I should definitely move them into the "empty" area of the garage, huh?​I think you said you are going digi's? If so, put them wherever you want! if they are magnetic, then yes, but them in the "empty" area.


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
Honestly, still haven't totally given up on the idea of saying "screw" AC and going with a 6" 425CFM for intake and a 10", 1000CFM for exhaust - I wouldn't be able to keep the room in the same tight temperature band that I would with AC, but I'd also be saving about 1000 watts of power. The CO2 would get exhausted more often, but with a natural gas line in there, I'm not real worried about that.​That's fine, but you aren't positive it will work AND you are compromising on your rooms temperature. If you are willing to not grow during the hot months, go for it!

You could always implement that after the first check or two since the cold weather would be here by then.[/quote]


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
3) Not sure what I'm doing with tents - might buy a 4x4 (even though I just sold mine like a dumbass) for my moms and clones - have them in a 2x4 right now but I don't think that's large enough mom area to get the # of clones I'm gonna need - gonna stick with a 400 watt light in either case, though.​The plants you took pics of in dirt need to be up potted as soon as the roots turn in those pots. Take a look at my album on RIU... To EVERY one that has a plant count issue, I tell them to use BIG pots. One mom in a big pot will give you more clones then you can use!


Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
4) I'm growing in my "workout" room right now in a 2x4 tent - it's all I've got available to me at this point - girl is not letting me take over any more rooms in the house.​First...




THEN ask for the other rooms!



Originally Posted by *Bobby Smith* 
...
And as far as switching the outlets to 220V, IF that's something I can do (don't think it is, electrical scares me and I'm not sure if I have the necessary breaker slots anyways), that'd definitely be something I'd do sooner rather than later - wanna try to get as much of this done before any plants go in there as possible - not trying to do major structural/electrical upgrades between harvests if I can help it...​Let me see if I can find some good electrical pointers for you.

All right, you've certainly earned your stripes for all your input today (sent you a PM - you've got a ounce-sized blunt waiting for you if you're ever in my hood), but I *think* I've made my mind up on a couple of things:

1) Not getting another AC

- I run my lights at night, which means the AC only has to keep temps in the low 80s as they run.
- During the day (when the sun is really beating down), the AC only has to keep a 140sq/ft room (HEAVILY insulated) at 75F (with intake air of 70F) - if the AC can't do that, then fuck it.
- This AC runs off of 1100 watts to cool lights of 2400 watts - if I need more than half of my energy devoted to cooling, than the economics of growing start to lose their appeal to me.
- If it turns out the AC simply can't keep up (would ONLY be an issue for the summer), then I have options like only running 1200 or 1800 watts (or just not flowering during the summer).
- One of my concerns is actually about my AC not running enough during the other nine months to provide the dehumidification necessary for the room - have a 25 pint dehumidifier, but I'm not sure that'll be able to keep up without the 100 pint dehumidification of the AC helping it out.

2) Not doing anything with the electrical (save for moving that green light)

- 2400 watts should be more than enough for my needs once I get it dialed in - looking to easily average a pound a month, and if I can't get that with that wattage and the system I'm building, than I need a new hobby





- Electrical scares me and if I don't need to do it, I'm not messing with it.
- Whereas I'm not a noob who asks if running a 250HPS is gonna have the cops beating down my door because of my high electric bills, 4000+ watts (AC, fans, pumps, lights) start to make a pretty high bill for a 3BR house (which also has tons of big screen TVs, stereo systems, central air, etc.) - not trying to be outrageous about my power usage.

Thanks so much again for you help man - can't wait to get this shit rocking and rolling.

Yeah, unfortunately ANY smell is unacceptable to me, so I've gotta get that figured out first and foremost, but I'm confident that I can throw enough filters and ozone at it (assuming the room is fully sealed) that I'll be able to handle it.

So, back to my lunatic self.........have decided that I'm gonna make the octagon 6 levels and 84 sites, and light it with 3 600s - plenty of lighting power for the size, and I should be able to pull 3 pounds off of that fairly easily.

Also going to hedge my bets and run a 600 next to it over an E&F table (one of my 2x4 trays, *maybe* - see below) using the SCROG technique - don't wanna put all my eggs in the vertical basket, and in the winter when the AC won't be running that much, I can add another horizontal 600 and my other 2x4 tray (if I so desire).

*Or should I use both of my 2x4 trays for the 600? Even though it comes out to EXACTLY 40 watts/sq foot (the trays are only 44", not 48"), the fact that it will be next to the octagon and receiving light from that as well should give me sufficient light for that setup, no?*

*EDIT: Integra and/or Boom, you could help me out here - even though the trays are 2x4, I could make the screen any size I wanted, right? So I could do a 3x4 screen over a 2x4 table with a 600 pretty easily, no?*

If I use both 2x4 trays, then I'd get a linear light mover and run it as a 2x8 table (I think).

I know I'm fucking nuts guys...........somebody help me out here with some direction so I can get some sleep and stop playing around with configurations in my head.


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## Integra21 (Aug 30, 2010)

Yeah, no mater what your try is, you want to build your screen to fit the footprint of your light. This can vary depending on your reflector, but with my 600w in the SuperSun II 3'x4' is perfect.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 9, 2010)

Sorry for the delay, everybody - got some interesting news a week ago - girlfriend is pregnant.

Anyhow, changed the ceiling spacing from 24OC to 16OC, and am heading to HD now to buy plywood and get the ceiling up and insulated.

Also gonna sell this piece of shit EZ Clone 120 - I've NEVER not gotten roots in three weeks from clones - I could root them in a fucking toilet and get better results.

Since running an EZ with a dedicated chiller seems to be more hassle and electrical consumption than it's worth, I'm just gonna try to recoup what I can off of Craigslist and stay with the tried and tested rockwool/rapid rooters/jiffy pellets in a humidity dome with heating pads.

It's a shame because I had high hopes for the EZ, but you've gotta know when to cut your losses - $350 for the EZ plus $350 for a chiller, or $5 for Jiffy Pellets with no moving parts.

Hopefully I can get ~$300 off of Craigslist, so I'll only lose $50 on this piece of shit.

Pretty easy call to sell it..............c'est la vie.


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## Knickers (Sep 9, 2010)

Congratulations dude, I hope the pregnancy goes well for you both.

As for cloning, I've had success is both aero cloning and using substrates, rockwool was my favourite. My most recent batch of clones were placed in 50/50 vermiculite/perlite in seed trays in a dome on a heat mat, misted daily with vent closed for the first 3 days and I had 100% success in 10 days at a fraction of the cost, and in a neutral media that is easily washed off roots if desired. I recommend you give it a try to see for yourself.

Good luck on the sale.. There's lots of suckers out there


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## Indefinately (Sep 9, 2010)

Hey Bob,

You have Co2 in bottle now and your loking at changing it to gas?
Is that right? If so why? 

I was going to order the EZClone Machine ( you turned me off that idea ).
I cant work out what im doing wrong with my bubble cloner.
I took cuttings and put some in rockwool on a heat mat ( standard ).
&
Put some in rockwool in the bubble cloning machine.
Most of the cuttings that were on the heat mat have rooted. (7 out of 12)
& only about 3 out of 35 have rooted in the bubble cloner......

I like your work Bob!!!


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## Bob Smith (Sep 9, 2010)

Indefinately said:


> Hey Bob,
> 
> You have Co2 in bottle now and your loking at changing it to gas?
> Is that right? If so why?
> ...


I got rid of the bottled CO2 during my first grow in this space - I'm a pretty lazy motherfucker, and lugging 3 20# tanks every few weeks was not something that I wanted to continue doing - if you're currently using gas and don't mind having to refill the tank(s), then I'd just stay with it.

I then changed from propane to natural gas because I wanted to make sure I'd never run out and to make refilling propane tanks a thing of the past.

And don't let me turn you off to the EZ Clone - lotsa people have great success with them, and I think that I would as well if my temps were decent - they're ~85F in the tent right now, which is obviously too hot but is what it is until they're out of their temporary home and into the garage.

If your temps are fine where you are and you have a chiller, then I think the EZ would work fine for you.

As far as your bubble cloner, you can't use rockwool in it - the rockwool will stay SOAKED and choke off the oxygen available to the rootzone.

You need to use neoprene disks (or something that serves a similar purpose - people have used styrofoam bowls and shit like that) to support the clones.

I made one and it worked fine (and I can pretty much fuck up any DWC endeavor), so it's pretty easy - there's pics and a tutorial way earlier in the journal (post #47).


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## Indefinately (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks Bob

I will start reading this thread from the beggining and see how far i can get today.......


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## Bob Smith (Sep 11, 2010)

1) Am I installing this insulation correctly? I have the unfaced side laying on the plywood and the faced side up in the air - is this correct or the opposite of correct? Not gonna change the three rows I've already done, but I can switch it up for the rest if it's incorrect.

FYI, it's R-19 insulation and 6" thick, which is why you see it sticking so far above the 2x4s.

Shooting to be done the ceiling by tomorrow, then it's just a day of drywall and time to start moving stuff in there.

2) Have never used a chiller before (I'm back on the recirculating system and off the drain to waste idea - I know myself and know that I won't enjoy cleaning/disposing of 150 gallons+ of media each run) and am wondering what size I need for a 60-70 gallon recirculating reservoir.

Don't want it to be undersized and running constantly, but don't wanna get something I don't need like a 1 or 1/2HP model which would need its own dedicated circuit and only run for 3 seconds every day.

I'm thinking I either need a 1/10 or 1/4HP model - anyone got any input?


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## Bob Smith (Sep 13, 2010)

Ceiling is 80% done, so I'm gonna finish that up tomorrow morning and then plywood the wall (said fuck drywall because I don't have a truck to bring it home in).

Assuming I finish that by early afternoon, then I just need to frame out the garage door (easier said than done, I'm sure) and plywood that.

Shooting to be filling in cracks with Great Stuff and PUTTING UP PANDA TOMORROW NIGHT!!!!!!!!!

THEN INSTALLING SHIT (AC, hot water heater) ON WEDNESDAY!!!!!!!

FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, and I'm gonna order my wyes from Home Depot tomorrow - not doing 84, doing 96 now and not leaving an opening for me to access the interior.

Shit's about to start getting fucking real in there.

In no particular order, I ran a 12 gauge cord to my room (the third 20 amp circuit), installed most of the ceiling, exhaust for AC, and moved the light down that was hanging in there down so I can actually use it in my room.

Oh, ALSO REALIZED THAT I HAVE ANOTHER 15 AMPS SITTING IN MY ROOM THAT I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IF I NEED IT.


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## Indefinately (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey Bob

Looking good, hope you dont need to move in a hurry.....LOL
Your insulation is the correct way up.
Work never ends!


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## Bob Smith (Sep 14, 2010)

Indefinately, you ain't lying about the work never ending - and no, we own this house, so we'll have plenty of notice for when we leave - I'll just run to Home Depot and pickup some workers and pay them $500 or $1000 and tell them to empty it out when it's time.

Didn't wake up til noon because I haven't slept for a week because I've been so focused on this project, so went shopping for all the materials I'm gonna need.

Left the house at 1, and got home 5 hours later after stopping at four Home Depots - you should see the kinda looks you get from people when you ask for 100 PVC wyes.

Also, included some pics of the actual plants (go figure) - they're ready to give me 120 clones, so I either need to get a chiller ASAP or I'm just gonna clone them into Jiffy pellets, but they need to get rocking ASAP.

Also, there's a pic of the three Ice seedlings I started a couple weeks ago.

And then there's the 6 sheets of plywood that I had cut in half (so now there's 12) to be able to transport them.

And of course three boxes of fittings and a small mountain of loose fittings.

Still not sure if I'm gonna go with 4 600s or 3 600s inside the octagon, and still not sure how tall it's gonna be or if I'm going to leave a side open for access.

FYI, if I go with 3 then I'll use the 4th over my 4x4 E&F tray and run a concurrent horizontal grow.

Also not sure if I'm gonna need a cooltube or if I can get away with bare bulbs.

Decisions, decisions.


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## Indefinately (Sep 14, 2010)

Love your work Bob,

Im anxious to see your "project" complete.....
No wonder you cant sleep.

I would sugest you used cool tube's so you can get the lights as close as possible to the plants.

What is the diametre of your octagon?
Have you sketched it out?


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## Bob Smith (Sep 14, 2010)

Indefinately, I haven't sketched it out, but this guy basically did all the work for me:

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17863

His was 4 levels tall, and seven sided (2 plants per level, per side, so he had 56 sites).

Mine will be either five or six levels tall (if five, I'll use 3 600s, if 6 levels, probably use all four 600s), and I'm going to have all eight sides encircling the light - if I need access to the interior, I'll just crawl in through the bottom.

I'm also using 4" PVC as opposed to the 3" that he used, so the diameter will be 5'+ (probably about 62 or 63 inches) as opposed to the 5' that his is with the 3" fittings.

I went with the 4" because I've never heard of plants complaining about more root space 

BTW, thanks for stopping by and for the compliments - gonna check out your grow(s) now.


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## dr green dre (Sep 14, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Indefinately, I haven't sketched it out, but this guy basically did all the work for me:
> 
> http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=17863
> 
> ...


Sounds like your going in on this one gonig to check your progress 
nice setup bro..


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## Bob Smith (Sep 15, 2010)

Took 144 clones today - jiffy pellets and humidity dome.

They're currently under my 400 (I know, not great but I'm too lazy to setup my fluros for what will only be a couple of days) - I've rooted clones under my 400 before, so I'm not too worried about it.

Also bought this 1/15HP chiller for my EZ Cloner (I'm fickle, duh).

Going to buy a 1/8 HP chiller tomorrow with an attached UV filter for my main system.


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## Indefinately (Sep 15, 2010)

Hey Bob

How long dod it take you to do your cuttings?


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## Bob Smith (Sep 16, 2010)

Indefinately, took me about an hour in total work time, but that's not including a half hour lunch break in the middle of the "hour".

Had to drive through two states to get this chiller:

http://www.marinedepot.com/1_8HP_TEC...P94510-vi.html

1) Bought the 1/8HP chiller (how should I clean this nasty saltwater shit off it?)
2) 50 feet of panda
3) Three gallons of GH - the micro is "hardwater", specially designed for tap water like mine
4) CAP timer - the baddest of badass - didn't get the 1 minute on/4 minutes off one - got the one that's adjustable to the second so I can run 15 seconds on/45 seconds off and shit like that. Pimp.
http://www.plantlightinghydroponics....ion-p-541.html
5) Can filter for my drying box I'm going to construct
6) 3" netpots

Oh, can I use pond pumps for the chillers instead of the inline mag pumps that aquarium people seem to use? Since the pumps are always going to be on, I'd rather use my pond pumps which draw ~30 watts versus a 180 watt inline pump - the GPH is rated fairly similar (675 vs. 633 for my pond pump).


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## statik (Sep 16, 2010)

WTF did RIU do to your post(s) Bob? I got a lot of catching up to do here. How ya been man?


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## Bob Smith (Sep 17, 2010)

statik said:


> WTF did RIU do to your post(s) Bob? I got a lot of catching up to do here. How ya been man?


Hey hey, look who it is - what's good? 

I've been all right, just trying to get this project off the ground..........and I meant to mention something when I first noticed it a few posts ago - it's when I post my pics that that happens - I fixed it the first time, but the last couple I've been in a bit of a rush.

I'll try to fix it going forward.


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## don2009 (Sep 20, 2010)

Hey Bob what is your temps and your humid for your clones Im having trouble cloning for a while now, I keep my temps at like 79-83F & humid around 40-50% what you think?


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## Knickers (Sep 20, 2010)

Humidity should be 100% until they've rooted.


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## don2009 (Sep 21, 2010)

Knickers said:


> Humidity should be 100% until they've rooted.


 How in the hell do you keep the humid 100% all the time???? The highiest I can get them is 60% and thats for a few minetes WHat about temps


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## Knickers (Sep 21, 2010)

Humidity dome, as simple as a clear plastic cup. If you don't have one then you need to refresh the dry leaves with a spray bottle, multiple times a day to start with.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 21, 2010)

Don, pretty much what Knickers said.

One of my humidity domes fits flush on the tray and one doesn't (they haven't been treated that well since I got an EZ Cloner), so I spray that tray every day for a minute to keep humidity up.

If you didn't want to use a humidity dome, go with a bubble cloner or an EZ Clone - faster roots and no need for a humidity dome (assuming you don't fry them like I did with my EZ Cloner).

I did a step by step bubble cloner post all the way back at the beginnning - I wanna say post #41 or somewhere around there.

EDIT: Actually post #47


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## don2009 (Sep 21, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> Don, pretty much what Knickers said.
> 
> One of my humidity domes fits flush on the tray and one doesn't (they haven't been treated that well since I got an EZ Cloner), so I spray that tray every day for a minute to keep humidity up.
> 
> ...


 Hey BOB and others thanks very much +rep Hey *what is your temps in the room*? I keep mine between 80-83F ppl say thats to warm for aeroponic cloning or for cloning period they say they def will die at those temps is that true? Ive been trouble shooting this for months switch to all types of cloning methods I know im doing everything right now I think its def the temps what you guys think? Bob your doing an awesome job too I always read your thread and always learn alot I might not say much but Im def getting alot of info so keep up the good work Thanks.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 21, 2010)

Not sure what the temps in the room are right now because it's still being built - just finished the ceiling.

Planning on running 80/72, somewhere around there - maybe a little warmer during the day, but I need to get everything setup and operating to see what I'm working with.

Yes, without a chiller 80-83F is too hot - those are basically the temps that I was running, and my first batch of clones in the EZ Cloner got fucking roasted by them - the water temp is gonna be even higher because of the heat from the pump.

I bought a 1/15th HP chiller to use in conjunction with it - should be able to keep temps somewhere in the 70-75F range pretty easily, methinks (but again, nothing's guaranteed so I need to get it all setup and see what I'm working with).

Anyways, good luck and thanks for the kind words.


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## don2009 (Sep 21, 2010)

BOB, your the best! Yeah I heard its a real good thing to get a chiller ppl say its so expensive tho, Anyways, good luck and thanks for the help.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 21, 2010)

I bought both of mine last week off of Craigslist - there's always people with aquariums who are moving and need to unload their stuff.

Just make sure to thoroughly wash it out before exposing your plants to it.

Another thing - I also bought a short cycle timer to run 15 seconds on/45 off, and that's gonna be pretty key for dealing with temps, methinks - those LP Aero pumps (mag drive kind) sure do use a lot of watts and produce a lot of heat - if you haven't already, I'd definitely recommend putting your pump on a timer.


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## don2009 (Sep 21, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> I bought both of mine last week off of Craigslist - there's always people with aquariums who are moving and need to unload their stuff.
> 
> Just make sure to thoroughly wash it out before exposing your plants to it.
> 
> Another thing - I also bought a short cycle timer to run 15 seconds on/45 off, and that's gonna be pretty key for dealing with temps, methinks - those LP Aero pumps (mag drive kind) sure do use a lot of watts and produce a lot of heat - if you haven't already, I'd definitely recommend putting your pump on a timer.


 Hey what is the exact name of those chillers you found on Craigslist so I can do a search on that.Yeah I have my mothers in aeroponics the timer is on 15min on 15min off do you think that is ok? They look fine now no problems but someone said to do less time off cuz its aeroponic and it need more water.What you think?


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## dr green dre (Sep 23, 2010)

Hope you dont mind bob ,but could you give me a little help here


Aright room.. 
Just finished making my first piece of hash using the bubble bags and ice method.Took ages as i had only arm power to work with , say 1hr plus mixing. Whats the best way to dry it out? Does it look any good? whats it supposed to smell like? 

last pic shows the three diff layers i got, i used the 5 bag one but didnt use the catcher . (didnt see the instructions till to late) only 1-4.





3-2-1 in that order ,1 was the largest , 3 the smallest..


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## Bob Smith (Sep 23, 2010)

Seems like the way you have it right now is a decent way to dry it out, IMHO.

Looks perfectly fine to me - nice work.

It's supposed to smell like hash - you've smelled hash before, I assume?

BTW, for those interested - gonna finish up the garage door tomorrow morning and then panda, then start setting up my appliances (dehumidifer, AC, etc.). Will post pics tomorrow.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 25, 2010)

Put a question mark afterwards because it's not the worst problem to have, but one tray of the clones (72 of the 144) are fully rooted - the other tray is lagging behind because the dome didn't fit as well and it didn't stay as humid, but I'm pretty sure they'll be ready in a few days as well.

Of course, seeing as how they need to go into the octagon when they leave the humidity dome, that's a bit of an issue because the octagon isn't finished (even really started) yet.

But hung some panda today (the worst invention in the world, fucking hate that shit and just gave up on trying to panda the ceiling) and am gonna start installing the AC, dehumidifier, etc. tomorrow.

Also just cut some PVC and started fucking around with the octagon - the actual building of it should be cake, and I am aiming to have it up and running by Tuesday.

Thinking I'm gonna buy a 96 gallon professional grade trash can from Home Depot for my reservoir.............lotsa shit to do still, kinda freaking out a bit because I didn't anticipate the clones getting done ahead of schedule.

Also taking a vacation to Europe from October 16th to the 25th, so that's gonna be interesting leaving a brand new system alone for 10 days while they do the 12/12 stretch...........yikes.

Enough talk, here's a shitload of pics:


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## don2009 (Sep 25, 2010)

Hey is you cloneing kit homemade or you bought it? Can I see a pic if possible so I can copy that cuz thats about the amount I want to clone. 144


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## Bob Smith (Sep 26, 2010)

The first pic is my $550 ($350 + $200 chiller) cloning solution which holds 120 cuttings and I will use going forward.

The next two pics are two trays with 72 Jiffy Pellets each. Cost about $10 all-in.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 27, 2010)

Bought 16 22.5 degree PVC fittings and am going to return the 8 45 degree fittings I bought - now it's not going to be an octagon, it's going to be a sixteen-agon - a much better shape all around, but more expensive as well.

Mounted the Sentinel but haven't hooked anything up to it yet (or even made sure it's fully operable, but it should be); fully installed the AC, tested it, it's working; just about finished installing the CO2 generator (after three trips to Home Depot for parts), but need to make a fourth trip for a 1/2" female threaded thingy so I'm gonna hold off til tomorrow for that.

Actually ran the water for a second, testing the pressure after going through the 50' non-kink hose and then running through the 50' cool coil - came out fine (plenty of pressure) even after flowing through 100' total, so I'm pretty stoked on that.

Stupidly put the CO2 generator right over an outlet, so I'm gonna see how watertight it is tomorrow and possibly move it if I'm worried about leaks, but there's not a lot of room to move it to, so I think I'll make do.

Gonna start construction of the base of the octagon either tonight (doubtful, as my girl is feeling plenty neglected these days) or tomorrow.

Any questions/comments about the pics, just ask/say.


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## don2009 (Sep 27, 2010)

Looks like your going to have a hell of a set up Im stoked for you on that. Hey Im looking for a portable ac unit now, Im having trouble with my temps thats why I wasnt cloning to good in aeroponic were did you get that from I checked all over on Craigslist for it? Thanks and looking good.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 27, 2010)

I ordered mine off of the Internet, but that's because I was very particular about what I wanted - needed to be 14K BTUs, dual hose, and have an auto-restart function so it could work in conjunction with my Sentinel CHHC-1.

If you just need any old portable, I'd think craigslist would be your best bet.

Oh, and I realized when I came inside that I forgot to attach the electric solenoid inline with the CO2 water line, so it's a good thing I'm not finished setting it up yet.

EDIT: but if you're ONLY lowering temps so your aero cloner can work better, I'd recommend getting a chiller instead. Again, that's assuming your temps are fine for everything else.


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## don2009 (Sep 27, 2010)

Bob Smith said:


> I ordered mine off of the Internet, but that's because I was very particular about what I wanted - needed to be 14K BTUs, dual hose, and have an auto-restart function so it could work in conjunction with my Sentinel CHHC-1.
> 
> If you just need any old portable, I'd think craigslist would be your best bet.
> 
> ...


Thats a good idea thanks for that.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 28, 2010)

So, spent hours and hours trying to get the Marey up and running............and it wasn't working because the fucking batteries were in the wrong way.

Can't make this shit up.

Anyways, went to Home Depot and bought proper fittings for it, so it's all legit now (see video for a demo).

Also started work on the sixteen-agon - gonna have the base finished by tonight, then it's just plopping the columns in it and doing the watering system.

Shooting for Thursday completion, but Friday or Saturday is probably more realistic because of having to source all these wyes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uWTX5CqEALw


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## Bob Smith (Sep 28, 2010)

All right, so here's where we're at - mounted ballasts, hung bulbs/moguls, and they're on right now.

Was having some issues with my surge protector that I originally attributed to the dual arc bulbs, so I'm gonna try them again later and see if I can get them to work better for me.

Anyways, all four are on and rocking right now - turned them on at five, and they're running with the CO2 and AC on as well - trying to get a feeling for how well (or more likely poorly) the AC can handle that heat load.

Remember, there aren't any chillers or my 600 watt veg tent in there yet - that being said, it's also unseasonably warm and humid today, and I would be running the lights at night, so I guess we can call that a 
"push".

Anyways, here's some pics:


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## Bob Smith (Sep 28, 2010)

Well, kinda disappointed, but also taking it for what it's worth - when I went in there after 100 minutes of everything running, the Sentinel said 92, but that's right near the lights with no fans in the room.

The AC said 75, which is about five feet away from the Sentinel.

Definitely not pleased about that first reading, but not gonna cry, either - figure you average the two out and you're at 83 with some decent air flow.

An option could be to cool tube the lights, but with how big I'm building the pentadecagon (I really can't say that word enough), I kinda need all the lighting I can get - if I go to cooltubes, I think I'll go with 3 1Ks.

I'd also run them on a closed loop, with intake air from the crawlspace and then exhausting into the "empty" garage, so no CO2 or smell would get exhausted with them (in theory).

Holy fucking shit.


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## Integra21 (Sep 28, 2010)

Fuck yeah Bob. This is the progress I['ve been looking forward to. I mush have mist the part where you went with the Hydrogen Pro over that weird heater thing you were originally doing. I thought when you mentioned hydrogen earlier it was just a typo. Cant wait to see that octogon sitting in the middle of there. This has been your best build yet, I got a good feeling about it. So glad you didnt give up after all the shit you have had go wrong in the past. Way to show the universe who's boss.


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## Bob Smith (Sep 28, 2010)

Integra21 said:


> Fuck yeah Bob. This is the progress I['ve been looking forward to. I mush have mist the part where you went with the Hydrogen Pro over that weird heater thing you were originally doing. I thought when you mentioned hydrogen earlier it was just a typo. Cant wait to see that octogon sitting in the middle of there. This has been your best build yet, I got a good feeling about it. So glad you didnt give up after all the shit you have had go wrong in the past. Way to show the universe who's boss.


Very kind of you, friend - this post made my day 

As far as the CO2 generator, it is a Marey Tankless Hot Water heater - it's just an "unbranded" Hydrogen - 100% identical.

I still would've paid the extra $50 for a Hydrogen just to "support the cause" or whatever, but they stopped making a natural gas model, so I had to go with the Marey.

It's funny, felt confident about the AC and was worried about the CO2, but the CO2 is working MARVELOUSLY (it's really, really cool) and the AC seems to be struggling.

Again, there are no fans in there so I don't totally trust the readouts, but I'm already going back to the drawing board with other cooling ideas - that 300 gallon reservoir in the crawlspace hooked up to some Ice Boxes might become a reality sooner rather than later.

Fuck it - balls to the wall.


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## Indefinately (Sep 29, 2010)

Hey Bob,
Awesome progress!


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## Bob Smith (Sep 30, 2010)

Indefinately, thanks for checking in, man.

Anyways, here's where we stand in terms of getting the base setup.......also put a column in so you guys can get a feel for what it's gonna look like with 15 of those in the mix.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 1, 2010)

So I bought two fans and put them in the room and ran it again............fucking 85F.

Just got off the phone with the guy from Octagon Hydroponics, and I'm trying to get their 4L600 rush delivered to me.............there's another $1K down the fucking drain.

http://octagonhydroponics.com/grow-l...l-systems.html

This is actually starting to get a touch expensive now........but on a positive note, have all but 10 of the wyes and am gonna continue work on the octagon today - might be able to get the plants in there with the lights turned down to 50%.........lemme go run them like that and see how much heat they put off.

Ratfarts.

EDIT: It's en route, and the owner seems like a real chill dude. Gave me some money off and free shipping, so it's $800 all-in.

DOUBLE EDIT: I'm hoping that the vertitube will pay for itself over a few grows in AC cost savings - will lessen the load off of everything with a properly functioning cooltube, especially the chillers. Want to be able to get my room down to 75F with the lights on if I so desire, and hopefully the cooltube will allow me to do that.

Gonna have to run a "T" off of the intake hole I drilled into the crawlspace, and the AC and cooltube will share it - both will also be exhausting through the roof and into the rest of the garage.

Hopefully with the AC running less, there will also be less smells and whatnot escaping............just goes to show, you should go with your gut and not try to cut corners.

It's gonna be here on Friday, so I'm still gonna try to get the "system" fully setup and only run a light or two until then, which I was probably gonna have to do anyways to avoid lumen shock.


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## Bob Smith (Oct 5, 2010)




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## Indefinately (Oct 6, 2010)

UNBELIEVABLE!!

WELL DONE BOB!
She will be Loaded and producig pounadage in no time!


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2010)

Thanks man, appreciate the compliments


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## Bob Smith (Oct 6, 2010)

So, found other 15 amps I knew was in there, but now I'm not sure how to go about the wiring - the pics below are pretty straightforward, I think, but hopefully you guys can clear up a point or two for me.

1) So there's a switch which feeds the rear flood lights for my garage - are the wires hooked up the back of the switch the "HOT" feed (from my breaker panel) or are they the wires which simply feed the lights?

I'm guessing I need to get behind there and untie all those wires that are tied together, huh? And then is there a way to know which is which?

2) As you can see from the video below, the 1/6th pump I bought is a fucking beast, and a 633 working with a 396 can't keep up with it - anyone have any recommendations on sizing? A 1/10th should be sufficient, no? As you'll see below, the return pump only has to pump about three feet, whereas the feed pump has much, much more resistance.

EDIT: Forgot the video link.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oLsQGDcTevs


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## Bob Smith (Oct 9, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nde9S1vbC7M


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## Integra21 (Oct 11, 2010)

Do you have any kind of voltage tester? Out of the wires there, you just have to find the black one with power on it, hook it to the L1/hot side of the outlet, run the white(common) to the L2/c terminal and ground to ground and just make sure anything else is capped off. Should be all good then with no fire risk.


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## Integra21 (Oct 11, 2010)

Yo Bob, I sent you a message over at the other place.


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## Indefinately (Nov 7, 2010)

Hey Bob

Where are our pictires of the new system?
Whats going on over there?
Have you forgoten abous us RIU users..........


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## Bob Smith (Nov 8, 2010)

No, haven't forgotten - just not a lot to report, been pretty slow.

Was in Europe for a couple of weeks, and now I'm just waiting on a new batch of clones to root and doing some more odds and ends setup work (cooltube, veg tent, chillers, etc) - that being said, this thread is pretty close to death - it's just too long for anyone's good, so whether or not I do a journal on RIU, it won't be in this thread - if I stay on RIU I'll post a link in here to my new journal (won't be for a couple/few weeks).


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## Indefinately (Nov 8, 2010)

Hey Bob

I started reading your thread on the other forum.
I will follow on over there.

All the best.....


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## alexonfire (Nov 14, 2010)

What other forum?



Indefinately said:


> Hey Bob
> 
> I started reading your thread on the other forum.
> I will follow on over there.
> ...


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## Bob Smith (Nov 15, 2010)

A few other forums, but there's nothing go on over there that's not on here - they're also just construction journals, no real plants growing yet - I'll paste a link here to my journal when it's up and running - probably be around a month (going to wait until they're flowering before I start a journal).


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## Hulk Nugs (Jan 16, 2011)

So what ever happened Bob?? Been wondering how the 4x4 ebbaflow table went for you?!?!


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## Bob Smith (Jan 16, 2011)

Lol............upgrading my octagon to HP aero (aka ""TAG") right now, but I'm over at THC Farmer if you wanna find me:

http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f8/4-600s-3-1000s-22756/


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## Hulk Nugs (Jan 17, 2011)

Bob Smith said:


> Lol............upgrading my octagon to HP aero (aka ""TAG") right now, but I'm over at THC Farmer if you wanna find me:
> 
> http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f8/4-600s-3-1000s-22756/


Right on sounds like a big project! Been watching your thread from the shadows on THC way over my head hahaha to add any info. I was wondering what was your take on the 4x4 ebbaflow 4 plants per sqft. Did it turn out like Dagambler was saying to much stress for a little yield ? After checking out ichi's 2x4 grow and how he made it work, i always though it might be possible. But then again the max yield would only be around 2 pounds and with maybe just 6plants grown big in a 4x4 might end up with a higher yield. Rambling on now any thoughts/experience on that kind of setup would be appreciated. Keep growing strong! Oh yea really enjoy the video walk threw don't be a stranger on youtube!!


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## cassinfo (Mar 13, 2011)

I like how this man have more fail than win but he keeps going. Bob your a hero in my book buddy.


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