# DEFOLIATION . . . . a hands on approach!



## Semper.Fi (Jun 23, 2015)

Hey all, welcome back from the previous thread if you have been following from Defoliation, a scientific approach... . . . .

Ok so new to my crazy adventures??? Basically, total butchery of one of two Wembley (Pyramid Seeds, soooo tasty!) clones . . . . .REAL defoliation, side by side pictorial experiment . . . .

Here's my first installment of pics to this new thread, you can click each pick to be taken to mediafire, where u can zoom in a little  . . . . .

I hope you enjoy the coming weeks as much as I! 


DEFOLIATED (naaahhhhhh really???? lol)












CONTROL PLANT (Yes I know, I've been a wee bit heavy on the N . . . . )












Thanx . . . . .

More in a couple of days . . . . .


Note, if you do click a pic, once the image loads in the mediafire window, you can double click that image for a big zoom in, pic quality drops somewhat, but it's ok 


~_


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 23, 2015)

Here they were just under three weeks ago.




~_


----------



## ButchyBoy (Jun 23, 2015)

Oh Yay!!!! 


in on the first page!!!!! 


I will be watching to see your results. I am one of the die hard anti plant butchering assholes!! Lol...


Long live the leaf!!!!


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 23, 2015)

I do defoliate, but really mostly at six weeks and beyond... so for me it's more a timing thing.


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 23, 2015)

True true m brethren . . . .

With out some, they'd surely die!!!!

Glad to have you on board.



ButchyBoy said:


> Oh Yay!!!!
> in on the first page!!!!!
> I will be watching to see your results. I am one of the die hard anti plant butchering assholes!! Lol...
> *Long live the leaf!!!! *




~_


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 23, 2015)

pffffffffffff hang on a minute . . . . . .

Can I use all these fan leaves I'm butchering to make any kind of half decent bubble hash / ice stuff???? Never done it before, is it reserved for the sugar leaf trim?

Appreciate any advice whatsoever, muchingly thanking you 



~_


----------



## weedenhanced (Jun 24, 2015)

Semper.Fi said:


> Hey all, welcome back from the previous thread if you have been following from Defoliation, a scientific approach... . . . .
> 
> Ok so new to my crazy adventures??? Basically, total butchery of one of two Wembley (Pyramid Seeds, soooo tasty!) clones . . . . .REAL defoliation, side by side pictorial experiment . . . .
> 
> ...


I've done it and not done it makes fck all difference its all about space and light defoilate where u need don't destroy ur plant and strain matter


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 24, 2015)

Awwwwww mmmmmannnnnn some one beat me to it???????? Gizza link to your side b side, just to remind the people . . . . . 

Strain matter?? Dunno tbh, duh . . . lol . . . . 

Peace



weedenhanced said:


> I've done it and not done it makes fck all difference its all about space and light defoilate where u need don't destroy ur plant and strain matter



~_


----------



## budman111 (Jun 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> I do defoliate, but really mostly at six weeks and beyond... so for me it's more a timing thing.


same here but more a prune.


----------



## ttystikk (Jun 24, 2015)

budman111 said:


> same here but more a prune.


That's way too late to prune, unless you mean something different than I'm thinking?


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm trying to remove leaves before the plant's metabolism includes them as, and makes them, larger storage facilities. Leaving it till the plant relies on the leaves heavily for storage, I find is more detrimental to the plant, it messes with the internal workings; it's metabolism; shocks it too much.

I've found that if they are nipped off earlier, whilst they are still being built INTO the storage facilities, the metabolism of the plant simply does not halt, if anything, if the plant is growing 100%, it quickens the growth of the next leaf and internode above, stops the vertical growth of the internode the leaf was just starting to power AND fires auxin and the likes into the intern node itself . . . . the repair mechanism ??

Your thoughts??



ttystikk said:


> I do defoliate, but really mostly at six weeks and beyond... so for me it's more a timing thing.




~_


----------



## budman111 (Jun 24, 2015)

ttystikk said:


> That's way too late to prune, unless you mean something different than I'm thinking?


Sativa


----------



## AlphaPhase (Jun 24, 2015)

Subbed


----------



## lilroach (Jun 24, 2015)

ok.....I confess....I skimmed your last thread and probably will here....so give me a quick summary....wasn't your last thread a side-by-side defoliate vs. leave it alone? How is this one different?


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 24, 2015)

Hey there,

You're right, SAME! It's actually just a move from the last thread, as I sorta hijacked . . . .lol . . . .

So, it's EXACTLY the same test, just in a thread under my own user name 



lilroach said:


> ok.....I confess....I skimmed your last thread and probably will here....so give me a quick summary....wasn't your last thread a side-by-side defoliate vs. leave it alone? How is this one different?



~_


----------



## lilroach (Jun 24, 2015)

OK.....then I'm NOT as stoned as I thought I was......well.....maybe I was.


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 24, 2015)

Hope so dude 



lilroach said:


> OK.....then I'm NOT as stoned as I thought I was......well.....*maybe I was*.



~_


----------



## vitamin_green_inc (Jun 24, 2015)

I'm new to the experiment...veg time? Pot size? What light? Any training methods beside defoliate?


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 24, 2015)

Yo . . .

Veg time?? lol those clones are about six months old . . .
3Gal fabric pots
x2 Phillips 400v from x2 Gavita 600e SE

Other training methods? Not good ones, she doesn't sit yet!!! lol . . . . .Yeah I LST the branches out flat so the individual inter nodes get max light and airflow.



vitamin_green_inc said:


> I'm new to the experiment...veg time? Pot size? What light? Any training methods beside defoliate?



~_


----------



## vitamin_green_inc (Jun 24, 2015)

Semper.Fi said:


> Yo . . .
> 
> Veg time?? lol those clones are about six months old . . .
> 3Gal fabric pots
> ...


How long in flowrr 5,6weeks? What days did you defol at?


----------



## Dr. Who (Jun 24, 2015)

Finally! Someone actually posting a side by side!!!

Nice!

Very minor fan removal on some pure or very near pure Indica's here. I _feel_ I get a better bud swell....But do not support the defol you have done......Now I'm happy to see this as not my friends runs.....Yours do look almost exactly alike though...

I have a good friend in our co-op that swears by defoliating,,,,,,I see his plants and I cringe.....His yields are nice but, bud size and bag appeal are hard for me to swallow when I review it for the shops.....quality is not dependent on the defol but it has never made top shelf and he gets clones from me.....
He does run synthetic and I don't any more....I got tired of experiments and juggling all the crap to dial them in, with what I can do with organics, and, have time on my hands - Water and walk away,,,,,just can't beat that with a stick......Haven't played with hydro, other then a swimming pool aquaponics project in about 5 years.....I already have a wife I'm tied too, don't need another....

I'm watch'in

Doc


----------



## Dr. Who (Jun 24, 2015)

6 month's veg ? 
Hmm,,,May I ask what, how much and, how often you feed?
Lighting?
Please?
Thanks 

Doc


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 25, 2015)

Gunnery Sargaent Vitamin. Sir . . . .here is the data you ordered!!! lmfao 

Coming up to the 3 weeks of flowering yo . . .
I defoliate from from week two after germination.

lmao, have no idea what days I defol at, like I've stated, I ain't no scientist, I'm hands on y'all!

If the leaf's been big enough to get my nails to the stem of it, the internode in question has enough leaf matter of it's own to take over the synthesis, I've fucked it orf!!!!


Sir, yes SIR!!!



vitamin_green_inc said:


> How long in flowrr 5,6weeks? What days did you defol at?




~_


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 25, 2015)

Who yo . . .

I have had 40 clones over the last 6 months I've been really pushing to the limits, killed many, I do not purposely veg for 6 months, it's not cost effective. BUT I'm not here to make lots of money, as long as my gut if full, bills are played, bowl is full . . . . .I shall be experimenting on our girls to the day I die . . . . . .


I feed my plants something every single watering, from when the soil is depleted; how much? Pfffffffffff can't really quantify until I use my little bits of boosters n stuff. The Stingey and Confrey Tea I make doesn't really register on my EC meter 


Lighting: Phillips Alto CMH Retro White 400w (Veg). Now under 1200w of Phillips via Gavita 600e SE (Flower)

With pleasure, your always faithful, K9 



Dr. Who said:


> 6 month's veg ?
> Hmm,,,May I ask what, how much and, how often you feed?
> Lighting?
> Please?
> ...




~_


----------



## Dr. Who (Jun 25, 2015)

Thanks for the intel.. Semper Fi actual...Eye's on.

Who base out. UUOOH RAAH !


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 25, 2015)

Ooorah !!



~_


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 26, 2015)

So guys n garls . . .

A little update, not of the side by side . . . .booo hissss. . . . .now settle down . . . . .

It's my defoliated & SCROgd Strawberry Cough from Dutch Passion, day 34 of flowering . . . . uh huh, well spotted pros . . . . just getting over a nitrogen deficiency . . .shit these girls burn it during flowering!!!












I truly thank you for stopping by 


~_


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 26, 2015)

<^> a SEMPER_FI free tip <^>

For any one growing Strawberry Cough from Dutch Passion.

From the moment you flip, stay on the grow feed, yes, all the way through to about week 5 maybe 6, just supplement the grow with additional PK, she seems to like it in an close to equal ratio!!
Then from about week 6 onwards you can phase in the bloom feed!!

She has such an appetite for N, Mg and Ca, that during my first grow with her, I got an awful deficiency that the flowering nute just would not handle, I didn't have N in it's loan form then, so I switched to Grow nutes . . .whhhhammmmm the weight started to pack on again 

Consider Cal / Mag all the way through flower too. (I grow in soil).

This way, I promise, you will have pineapple sized colas!!



~_


----------



## lilroach (Jun 26, 2015)

From everything I've read you should keep N in its diet all the way through. I use Jack's Classic Bloom Booster from beginning to end and have to add a bit of bat shit and calmag along the way.


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 26, 2015)

Oh for sure, there will always be N in a bloom nute . . . . just don't expect a Strawberry Cough from DP to survive transition if you switch to bloom straight away, or even three weeks later . . . . .

That's my knowledge 

In fact, a wee secret of mine to really really dank smelling bud???? A shot (0.3EC) of BAC Organic PK Booster, four days before the chop!!! It's 2% N! ota . . . 



lilroach said:


> From everything I've read you should keep N in its diet all the way through. I use Jack's Classic Bloom Booster from beginning to end and have to add a bit of bat shit and calmag along the way.




~_


----------



## Ministry Grower (Jun 29, 2015)

I am curious to know the effects of defoliation. Hopefully you continue to keep us updated .


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jun 29, 2015)

Cool, nice to have interest . . . 

There will be a picture update later on this evening 




Ministry Grower said:


> I am curious to know the effects of defoliation. Hopefully you continue to keep us updated .



~_


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jul 1, 2015)

Tichy lil update, too knackered to get them out to get among them . . . . .

The defoliated plants are drinking half the amount of water at somewhere around 0.8EC . . . .

The undefoliated is burning through nutrient compared to the defols!! Feeding, constantly at somewhere around 1.1EC, with one big water every couple of weeks.

Still having a wee problem dialing in my new nettle / comfrey brew with the undefoliated, hungry beatch! lol









Eeeeesh bad piccie, sorry . . . . I'll get among em tomorrow for you 


TTfn


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jul 1, 2015)

Oh in the meantime here's a few other defoliation test strains . . .

Day 30ish, I think, lol. Just starting to fill out . . . . The N in my Nettle/Comfrey brew is a little too much for the Ace, I shall be switching to Bio Canna Flores 

TGA Subcool's Ace of Spades


TGA Subcool's Ace of Spades


TGA Subcool's Chernobyl


TGA Subcool's Qrazy Train



Cheers u lot.

Back soon 




~_


----------



## Semper.Fi (Jul 1, 2015)

Any advice please??



Semper.Fi said:


> pffffffffffff hang on a minute . . . . . .
> 
> Can I use all these fan leaves I'm butchering to make any kind of half decent bubble hash / ice stuff???? Never done it before, is it reserved for the sugar leaf trim?
> 
> ...


----------



## AlphaPhase (Jul 3, 2015)

Lookin good man. I've had a problem with n deficiency when switching to bloom nutes at flower as well. Usually I run 50% grow and 50% bloom for a couple weeks but this run I didn't and I definitely have a deficiency.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 10, 2015)

Strawberry Cough needs heavy amounts of Nitrogen, Calcium, Magnesium for first 4 weeks in bloom.

When I run the cough I feed full strength grow week 1. Week 2 I feed full strength grow and half strength bloom. Than in week 3 its half strength grow and full strength bloom. And than 1/4 strength grow week 4 and full strength bloom. Than straight bloom all way through flower. Until week 6. Than half strength week 7. And flushing final 2 weeks.

I also start feeding the PK 13/14 formula right at week 2 as they really need it. I continue this thru week 6. I prefer using either Atami Bloombastic or Canna PK 13/14. And than cut back all additives week 7 to half strength and flush final 2 weeks with enzymes and carbohydrates. 

The cough loves the Nitrogen and it is much needed to keep everything green through harvest until you flush and push it all out.


----------



## Buzz Buzzilla (Jul 10, 2015)

Semper.Fi said:


> Any advice please??


Rock on man pull them fan leaves off....I have read to take any fan leaf that is more than two weeks old during veg....during flowering day 21, and day 45! And here is a good read on why! For outdoor I would only defoliate during flowering... http://michiganmedicalmarijuana.org/topic/40183-controversial-technique-increases-marijuana-yields-but-at-what-cost/


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 10, 2015)

Yeah I find it kind of funny how many people argue about defoliation. I guess its one of those things that will be a never ending debate. Its becoming more and more of a common growing practice for indoor cultivators looking for that extra weight and bigger buds.

Defoliation definetely works hands down. And best thing about it is that it is free


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 10, 2015)

The only thing with defoliation is timing is everything. You need to know your strains and how they respond to defoliation. Selective leaf pruning I believe is a better term for this process. Whenever your plants have finished the stretch phase its time to pluck off all those sucker branches and bullshit that wont ever be anything more than fluff. Its just gonna draw away from your main colas and take additional energy away from what you want to focus on which is the upper canopy.

Its also beneficial for helping air flow and prevent potential for bud rot and molds especially when running bushy indica plants in tightly packed rooms using scrog or trellis methods. 

One last note is if you really wanna get crazy and Ive done this a few times is 10 days before the harvest go in and strip of all of the big fan leaves from the entire plant. Soon as you start flushing you can begin this process and I was very skeptical when I was first informed on this matter but have since used it as a common practice for all my grows. Removing all of these fan leaves speeds up the finishing time and flushes out all of the nutrients in your plants while increasing the light penetration to the bottom of you plants which helps aid the plant in ripening everything at once. Its also beneficial in that it triggers a hormonal responses within the plant and reacts by producing more resins. Similar to a bug attack or animal attack by stimulating the internal responses and coating the flowers with added resins. 

Dont believe me just try it out on one plant and you can thank me later.


----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 10, 2015)

I've never defoliated, just pruned lower smaller PC stuff. You pluck leaves not cut them off, correct? Any advice on the actual plucking? Suppose I'll try one or two leaves when lights come on later, just kind of apprehensive that I'll end up pulling "skin" off of the branch at base if leaf stem, or do they pop off fairly easily?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 10, 2015)

Defoliation isnt anything to new in cultivaton practices it didnt just arise out of thin air. There are many principles and scientific factors that show why it works and how it benefits bud development.

Simple answer is that unlike growing outdoors when cannabis is grown indoors you get more robust bushy plants with plentiful amounts of foliage because you are giving them optimum growing environment. Plants grown outdoors usually by mid flower have lost most of these fan leaves either from weather, insect attacks or animals. They are able to continue growing regardless of this leaf loss. 

So when you grow these plants indoors the idea of removing these leaves to focus on bud development is no different. These large fan leaves pull nutrients and water away from bud sites and by removing them you are driving the energy and resources straight to the flowers themselves.

Outdoors these fan leave serve more purpose because they hold vast amounts of nutrients for the plant and feed it from within. Which is why you dont need them indoors as much as outdoors because you are constantly feeding the plants at the roots and providing them everything they need when you feed.

So dont worry about what people say regarding you pulling them off and killing your plants. These plants are resilient and yields can be greatly increased from proper defoliation. Most of the information on the internet comes from people who make claims and provide information they believe is right without ever doing the research for themselves and simply repeat things they hear and believe them to be true. Defoliation is one of those things.

Indicas respond the best, know your strains and be careful with sativas as some dont respond so well primarily because they dont have vast amounts of leaves to begin with. This is a simple thing no need to complicate it.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 10, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Defoliation isnt anything to new in cultivaton practices it didnt just arise out of thin air. There are many principles and scientific factors that show why it works and how it benefits bud development.
> 
> Simple answer is that unlike growing outdoors when cannabis is grown indoors you get more robust bushy plants with plentiful amounts of foliage because you are giving them optimum growing environment. Plants grown outdoors usually by mid flower have lost most of these fan leaves either from weather, insect attacks or animals. They are able to continue growing regardless of this leaf loss.
> 
> ...


Large fan leaves produce the energy the buds needs too grow. They do not pull energy away from the buds. Your logic is flawed and incorrect. Stoner logic at its best.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 10, 2015)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Large fan leaves produce the energy the buds needs too grow. They do not pull energy away from the buds. Your logic is flawed and incorrect. Stoner logic at its best.


Thats ok if you think so. But there is plenty of information regarding this subject and very easy to access. Large fan leaves do initially provide resources for the plant, during veg phase and early bloom. During the bloom phase after initial flowering when the roots stop growing and the plants stop growing and stretching these big leaves are no longer needed the same way as they are during growth phase. The buds are formed and now they are going to bulken up and ripen. Removing these leaves will focus all the moisture, water and nutrients into swelling up the flowers and increasing bud development and size.

Thats the whole point of indoor growing systems such as hydroponics soilless constantly are being fed and thus you are feeding your roots and this is what gives your plant the nutrients and energy they need to grow and produce flowers. The first few weeks of bloom they do provide resources to grow and stretch and produce flowers same as the veg phase. Why do you think fan leaves fall and die off as harvest approaches? These leaves are no longer useful and they yellow and shrivel up fall off and die. If you simply remove these leaves after the 4-5 week or final 2 weeks of bloo, you will than understand how it works. 

Research it and look it up. 

Removing these leaves especially during final 2 weeks of bloom will not hurt your plants or fuck up your yield. It will increase your yield when done correctly. And also help them finish up and ripen for harvest including producing additional resins and trichomes. 

Try it out and you will see. I promise this isnt something I am just making up. Theres alot alot alot of articles written about this, theres books written on it and many expert growers who all use these practices for their grows.


----------



## Dr.Pecker (Jul 10, 2015)




----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 10, 2015)

So I'm in the 2-3 week range after the flip, wait another 2-3 weeks to do some defoliation? Little by little I would assume, not a hundred leaves in one day. I'll do some more research but I'm down to try simple things like this to increase yield/ quality. Any other pointers. Thanks all.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 10, 2015)

Yes that is the "basic" principle of photosynthesis. Understanding the process of photosynthesis is that leaves use sunlight that convert it into carbohydrates and energy for the plants. Nutrients are stored in the leaves and as the nutrients diminish in your soil or medium the plant will use the stored nutrients from the leaves to feed growth (veg stage).

If you supply constant nutrients to the roots they dont need to continuously store these food sources and deplete the leaves which is why we constantly feed the roots. In the veg stage the leaves are more important for this reason because the are driving the plant to grow and continuously produce energy and carbs for growth.

The budding stage is for flowering your not trying to get new growth your just trying to ripen and fatten whats already being produced which is the flowers. The leaves arent as necessary which is why they fall off and die during bloom.

Thats why once mid bloom comes you can begin to remove the leaves to increase your yields. Your no longer focusing on foliage you are focusing on bud development. This is as basic a way as I can explain it. 

Plants are autotrophic they can create their own food thru photosynthesis. But we feed them so you dont need to worry about them making this energy from leaves like they need to in nature.

Have you ever seen a tree in winter? No leaves it stores carbs and nutrients via roots and still comes back to grow when climate permits it and light changes as seasons progress. You can literally strip an entire plant down to 1 leaf set and it will continue to grow provided you are feeding it nutrient and giving it the right environment.

Its not a hard concept its just the misconception of not understanding why defoliation works. It works because you are no longer focusing on growth and keeping leaves green but rather focusing on developing buds. The plant continues to grow and ripen and finish even after you strip the leaves off thru defoliation. 

Hope this helps. Like I said try it out and than get back to me. Im not gonna come here take time to tell you something that doesnt work if I did I lose all my credibility. Im not here to do that. Just to help and learn. Peace


----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 10, 2015)

For sure I'll keep ya posted. Thanks for the good info. One of my pretty ladies right here...


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 10, 2015)

Top view I keep em chunked w tons of floeer sites and super bushy these have about 30 tops and are only 12" tall. Serious pruning. Super sour pheno

 

Heres some of my bitches thru the last veg run. In bloom now have take some new ones. These are Fruity Chronic Juice...
SAGE & Sour... Louis OG.. AND Ultra Sour


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

Just started blooming lil while ago only on day 11


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

Ill get some new pics up and show yah how much diff they look after my last huge defoliation I did few days ago. Big difference you can see right through to back walls and floor to tops of pots.

Ill put some final shots up when there done of the chunks and get the soda bottles out theres gonna be some donks up in this


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

This sours a finicky fckin bitch to grow I like how it grows overall but Im trashing it after this run. Too picky with nutrients. If you dont feed em every single time they lighten up and get deficienct after 1 wrong feeding super pain in the ass. Been hammering down nitrogen and calcium all run and they still want more. 

Gonna keep the Fruity Chronic the Louis OG and I got some Milkshake cuts and some G13 Haze Strain im bringing back in.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

Sorry milkshake is a g13 haze strain* that was typo


----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 11, 2015)

Very nice! definately a nicer set up than my ghetto rigged one. But whatever gets the job done right.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

MoMoGrows said:


> Very nice! definately a nicer set up than my ghetto rigged one. But whatever gets the job done right.


I got a buddy with a 3 lighter in a huge walk in closet that is pretty "ghetto" but he gets great results. Dont matter what room looks like as long as your environment is right and your feeding correctly your good to go. 

Doesnt need to be fancy at all. Thats the great thing about growing for yourself its a labor of love. 

Im lucky to have 2 rooms I built in a basement dividing room up but its nothing crazy just keep it clean and organized and thats all you need man. Could always be better but you work with what you got


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

G13 Haze
Nice fat bushy squatters, best part is its a 50 day strain. 7 weeks and shes done!


----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 11, 2015)

A lot of leaf


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

Those look reallly good perfect color on em


----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 11, 2015)




----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 11, 2015)

Right on!
Been been tight on this grow staying on top of it properly.


----------



## ODanksta (Jul 11, 2015)

I defoliate when I trim


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

ODanksta said:


> I defoliate when I trim


If we arent expirementing and trying new things we arent learning. If youre not expirementing than you arent smart enough to understand why you should be. 

"No one expirement can prove you right but one expirement can prove you wrong" in the great words of Albert Einstein. 

So try new things and see what happens you always learn something from it. Dont listen to other people because they may have tried it and done the expirement wrong to begin with theres a reason expirement are repeated in labs all across the world regularly over and over to see if its possible to get a different outcome which does happen. So dont trust everyhing people say because it doesnt mean anything try it for yourself.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 11, 2015)

Its one of the great things about life and America. Our country was an expirement in its birth. If your not expirementing you arent living. Its our duty to try things and find solutions. Defoliation is an expirement that can be tried tested and repeated anywhere in any garden and people are all seeing similar results. Increased yields. It defies modern knowledge of photosynthesis on a basic level, but when you see how it works it all makes sense. Kinda crazy to imagine stripping your leaves can result in such a phenomena, but than again who thought that topping your plants and cutting the in half over and over would increase your yields either? Wheres the science in that?

Its not okay to defoliate, BUT IT IS OKAY to cut branches and limbs off your plant. Kind of an oxymoron if you think about considering your doing the same thing.


----------



## MoMoGrows (Jul 14, 2015)

This big bitch is hogging tha light.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

You can get massive buds by letting the plant defoil itself, just takes a different way of feedin em, low nutes, low N, I use Jacks Aquagold 7-15-30 and yeppers I flower with T5's


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> You can get massive buds by letting the plant defoil itself, just takes a different way of feedin em, low nutes, low N, I use Jacks Aquagold 7-15-30 and yeppers I flower with T5's View attachment 3461145 View attachment 3461146


Those meters on your wall work? Things says its 90 F in there. 

I also never understood the theory of constantly moving things into bloom.

Since plants have different stages of flowering they have different needs especially during early bloom to mid bloom. Considering temp day and night and humidity.

You cant ever truly grow best possible flowers running different strains at diff times in the same bloom room.

Example:
Those are finishing up and would really enjoy lower day temps low 70s and a nice 10 degree lower night temp low to mid 60s and benefit from low humidity like 35-40% to finish up.

But than there are plants that are just beginning to flower that will benefit from higher humidity like 60-65% and no temp difference between day and night and a little warmer day time temp like mid upper 70s with no diff at night to reduce stretching.

You dont worry that you arent giving them optimal environment just to always have something coming out of bloom?

Also a PIA to have to feed everything differently and make separate nutrients for each plant. Thats got be a big time PIA. 

I like to run em all and cut em all one shot and move the new shit in when they r done.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Those meters on your wall work? Things says its 90 F in there.
> 
> I also never understood the theory of constantly moving things into bloom.
> 
> ...


Yeppers canopy is 90 degrees, room is at 79, I do things differently than most LOL

and yeppers flowers in flowers out, tis a small garden not a big deal

That is a 20 inch cola on a 34 inch plant in a 2 gallon pot under T5's in week 7

and you think I'm doin something wrong ?

Ask @DC420 bout my herb


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

You running Jacks as in JR PETERS fertilizers? They work good for you?

I have a buddy whose been doing coco/coco chips and peat mix with the JR PETERS HYDROPONIC and Calcium Nitrate and I think he said they had a Blossom Boost also I'd have to ask him.

But his stuff comes out like absolute shit every time. Its been so bad he cant even selll it to people noone will take it. I consider it to be worst than common outdoors, no smells, very little resin. The only thing it does it looks bright green with nice orange hairs. Other than that its complete poop.

He was running the Jack Cirtus before that and it was same exact thing no difference he swears it is the pheno and cut not the nutrients. (I beg to differ) so he gave me 3 cuts and I am running them right now to prove him wrong. Just starting the 4th week and mine already smell and have wayy more resin content than his dried and cured crap have and im just getting down with the stretch.

Ive never been sold on that nutrient line. Ive seen some OK looking shit that it produced but overall has too much nitrogen in it and just doesnt produce high quality meds. Now with that said this is only like a handful of people I know who have tried and used it, but either way thats 5 people whose stuff all was garbage.

I know one kid switched over to Dynagro and it came out a couple steps better but nowhere near quality you would expect with premium genetics. Idk if its suttin wrong w them or the nutrients but Ive seen them use GH and Canna and have wayyy better quality shit. I honestly couldnt believe the kid even showed me it I would have been embarrassed to tell anyone I grew that bunk.

Either way Im gonna be showing him how his cuts came out with my nutrients and see what he has to say. Hes a penny pinching prick who is blaming the pheno which I know hes wrong about.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Yeppers canopy is 90 degrees, room is at 79, I do things differently than most LOL
> 
> and yeppers flowers in flowers out, tis a small garden not a big deal
> 
> ...


I didnt say u did anything wrong. I was just asking u if that was the temp in there.

And once again never said u were wrong I just said I like to go all in at once than out. I said u would have a better final product if u gave them exactly what they wanted during flowering. 

Temps, humidity change as plants move in diff stages during bloom. But like I have said in other threads everyone has their own methods, diff shit works for diff people. More power to u brotha.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> You running Jacks as in JR PETERS fertilizers? They work good for you?


yeppers Citrus in veg, Aquagold in flower, plus a few other things, wouldn't use anything else


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

Im assuming thats a haze strain/sativa of some kind way it looks like its growing?

U got some final cured shots Id like to see what the Jacks aqua results look like. Compared to this kid I know whose cuts im running now. Im tryin prove its the nutrients he wont listen, he swears the strain is crap but I think he full a shit.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Im assuming thats a haze strain/sativa of some kind way it looks like its growing?
> 
> U got some final cured shots Id like to see what the Jacks aqua results look like. Compared to this kid I know whose cuts im running now. Im tryin prove its the nutrients he wont listen, he swears the strain is crap but I think he full a shit.


sure here is a recent harvest of my TF69


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

I think im on day 19/20 have check calendar later when I get over there. But looking good so far, stacking up nicely right now. These bloom really quickly. Gettin super stinky and coated up with resin nicely. So far they lookin good to grow.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> sure here is a recent harvest of my TF69
> View attachment 3461171


Yeah those look nice. Nothing like this dudes shit with that jacks hydro and citrus feed. Idk wtf hes doing wrong lol.

His shit looks like that canadien bc bud but smells like air basically, no resin content anything. As u can see mine already getting frosty and his have like nothing. He must be fuckin up the feedings or something not sure now that I see that stuff.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Yeah those look nice. Nothing like this dudes shit with that jacks hydro and citrus feed. Idk wtf hes doing wrong lol.
> 
> His shit looks like that canadien bc bud but smells like air basically, no resin content anything. As u can see mine already getting frosty and his have like nothing. He must be fuckin up the feedings or something not sure now that I see that stuff.


Click the are they done link in my sig to see a few of my buds 

the lights link explains the 90 degree temp thing


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Click the are they done link in my sig to see a few of my buds
> 
> the lights link explains the 90 degree temp thing


What u run high temps just so u can feed ice cold water im assuming?


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> What u run high temps just so u can feed ice cold water im assuming?


Nope, I mimic mom nature

try standing in the sun, i bet it feels warmer than in the shade


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

Yeah i i understand that direct light and sun is going to be warmer and cooler in shade but what does that have to do with your room being 90 F?

That temp probe is on the wall, yes its up near the lights and im sure the bottom of the containers by the floor are cooler.

But you would get alot better flowers if your room was an ambient temperature of 75 F. I never let my canopy go above 78 unless im in veg or if I was running co2.

If you have high canopy heat you need to counter act that by using water thats lower than the ideal room temperature to cool down your plants. Maybe low 60's. But going to cold will shock your plants and be counter productive.

The only time I would use cold water like that is at the end of bloom. You can use cold water to shock the roots and plant and increase trich production, I know people who swear by that method idk myself but I trust the guys who do it because I see there shit when its done.

Canopy temps of 90F though idk about that. Whether the floor temps and air around it are a little cooler or not those main flowers probably dont like it at all.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Yeah i i understand that direct light and sun is going to be warmer and cooler in shade but what does that have to do with your room being 90 F?
> 
> That temp probe is on the wall, yes its up near the lights and im sure the bottom of the containers by the floor are cooler.
> 
> ...


perhaps before you say it is harmful or that plants don't like it, you should try it?

as I already said the ambient room temp is 79, the canopy is 90 the room is 500 sq ft completely wide open, the grow area is 5 X 5 or 25 sq ft 

I've only been doin this for 40 years and have written 2 books on the subject as I also breed, but what do I know ?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

I regulate my entire room by the canopy temps. If my canopy temp is say 75-76 the floor and rest of my room is probably high 60s or low 70s. Think about it, if you are really trying to mimic nature you would grow outside lol.

The whole point of indoor growing is to be able to have total control over your garden which is why the quality is so much better indoors. Also even outside when its really hot out the roots in the ground are still gonna be very cool. Which is exactly what you want go do inside. Having your roots in a good habitable zone of 60-65F is perfect. If your room is 90F at canopy and 75-80 as the ambient temperature your containers and roots are probably around that temperature as well. Thats the reason I asked if thats why you were using cold water to balance out the issue and keep your roots and containers cooler (to me this would make sense).

I know some strain like warmer climates as well but even so having a 90-F canopy is a definite big time no-no for me. At that point youre losing terpene and resin production. Photosynthesis and ATP is slowing down and you would most likely have bigger, denser flowers if you cooled that canopy down alot. Unless youre running co2 also? I just dont know why you run it so hot besides fact you cant cool down T5's but still. Thats hot man


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> perhaps before you say it is harmful or that plants don't like it, you should try it?
> 
> as I already said the ambient room temp is 79, the canopy is 90 the room is 500 sq ft completely wide open, the grow area is 5 X 5 or 25 sq ft
> 
> I've only been doin this for 40 years and have written 2 books on the subject as I also breed, but what do I know ?


I run warmer temps in veg and early bloom. Around low 80s never over 82 roughly. Its science and botany, metabolism and ATP stops when plants receive high temperatures especially over 85-F. This is science this isnt something I am trying to argue or make up. 

MJ plants like mid to low 70s in flowering to grow the best and produce the best flowers this is a definite cant even argue about it at all. This is common knowledge unless u run co2 you can bump it up. I understand you say the ambient room temp is 79 but i wouldnt even like that in my room. Thats the max canopy temp and I like it more in the 75-76 range during mid bloom to ripening stage.

Anyone can write a book. I can write one tomorrow doesnt mean its true or anyone will buy it. (Not trying to be a dick im just saying writing a book means nothing). Unless its a must have and everyone agrees. Like The Rev wrote True Living Organics and thats a well known must have book regarding organic growing.

Whats the name of your book I would like to check it out as now I am interested in it.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

If u can make it an easy paragraph just explain why running a canopy temp of 90F is okay? Maybe I am missing something.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I run warmer temps in veg and early bloom. Around low 80s never over 82 roughly. Its science and botany, metabolism and ATP stops when plants receive high temperatures especially over 85-F. This is science this isnt something I am trying to argue or make up.
> 
> MJ plants like mid to low 70s in flowering to grow the best and produce the best flowers this is a definite cant even argue about it at all. This is common knowledge unless u run co2 you can bump it up. I understand you say the ambient room temp is 79 but i wouldnt even like that in my room. Thats the max canopy temp and I like it more in the 75-76 range during mid bloom to ripening stage.
> 
> ...


My 1st book was The Road to a Cure but is only available to members of my forum, though I am thinking about publishing it

my 2nd book is called Grow Happy Plants and I have not yet published it as there were a few more chapters I decided to add, but there is a website 
http://growhappyplants.com/

I do everything very differently than what is taught in forums and I have no problem puttin my buds up against all comers, I actually grow some of the most potent pot in the world

and I'm not tellin ya that your way is wrong


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> If u can make it an easy paragraph just explain why running a canopy temp of 90F is okay? Maybe I am missing something.


wrote a whole thread on it, already told ya to check the sig link


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

This is my room temp and canopy they are both the exact same temp all around room. I run a probe and have it on a atmosphere controller that does everything (co2, lights, temperature, humidity, reservoir) if it gets warm it will dim the lights, if humidity changes, it will change the temps to control the room so its the same temp no matter where in the room same humidity everything spot on. This way you are absolutely controlling entire room temp with 0 hot spots. Thats what you want.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

Thats wsp. I am gonna check it out later on when I got some time and read that shit. I have a small library all I do is read read and read. 

Probably do about 2 books a week on average. Always looking to learn something new whether its alot of new information or one simple idea and Im all about it.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> My 1st book was The Road to a Cure but is only available to members of my forum, though I am thinking about publishing it
> 
> my 2nd book is called Grow Happy Plants and I have not yet published it as there were a few more chapters I decided to add, but there is a website
> http://growhappyplants.com/
> ...


Oh I dont listen to half the shit on these threads more like 75% is just ridiculousness in all honesty. And anyone who says there ways the only way is just out of their minds to simple state it. As i am sure u must agree considering u state u have ur own methods of madness that work for you.

I find the funniest parts an arguments are regarding nutrient companies. The rest argue about defoliation and flushing.

The funny shit is theres at least 30 major nutrien companies out there ppl can use to grow. If someone likes to spend money on canna specific nutrients so what, noone said you have to use this or u dont know what ur doing. Why argue about it u know? Ppl on this forum seem to be about dynagro and jacks exclusively which is crazy. Because on other forums everyone likes AN, Canna and GH for the most part. Maybe I just joined the wrong forum haha.

Also, the other argument is that some people act like one guy came along and made up defoliation and flushing the same day because he felt like it and hoped people would listen to him. Its comical the amount of people who think defoliation doesnt work, and the other half think flushing is pointless. I coudnt disagree more but thats me, everyone I know flushes and defoliates with great success. Idk ur take on it but im sure u have opinions on it as well. 

Point is to each his own, u do what works for u and fck the haters. If ppl wanna listen all u can do is help its up to them if they get it or not.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Oh I dont listen to half the shit on these threads more like 75% is just ridiculousness in all honesty. And anyone who says there ways the only way is just out of their minds to simple state it. As i am sure u must agree considering u state u have ur own methods of madness that work for you.
> 
> I find the funniest parts an arguments are regarding nutrient companies. The rest argue about defoliation and flushing.
> 
> ...


I'm the guy that wrote the truth about flushing thread here LOL


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Oh I dont listen to half the shit on these threads more like 75% is just ridiculousness in all honesty. And anyone who says there ways the only way is just out of their minds to simple state it. As i am sure u must agree considering u state u have ur own methods of madness that work for you.
> 
> I find the funniest parts an arguments are regarding nutrient companies. The rest argue about defoliation and flushing.
> 
> ...


want to guess who got everyone using the jack's,dyna gro, non bs specific nutes, Bet you can't guess,lol


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> want to guess who got everyone using the jack's,dyna gro, non bs specific nutes, Bet you can't guess,lol


I'd say @Uncle Ben 

but I helped a tad


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> I'd say @Uncle Ben
> 
> but I helped a tad


----------



## DCobeen (Jul 17, 2015)

I just was in RM3's garden and you can hide a powerade 32 oz bottle behind his buds. He wasnt lying when he said "I have some of the strongest weed in the world" his ctf which I grew is amazing and strong. I looked at his gauges and will see my canopy temps as my room is usually around 76-80 with lights on and I know the canopy is hotter. Dont buy or use the mj nutrients as they will just cost you 5x more $$$. My weed is amazing and Rm3 has better but I expect that as he is teaching me how to do it right. When he types listen. We just had a bunch of us from his thread meet up and we all agreed his is the strongest weed we have smoked hands down. There was a few that was close but he is the king.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 17, 2015)




----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Those meters on your wall work? Things says its 90 F in there.
> 
> I also never understood the theory of constantly moving things into bloom.
> 
> ...


Shit! I'm perpetual as hell, buddy and they ALL get the same nutes (EC varies, but that's it) and they get the same room with the same conditions from day one through chop. Try it, it's a lot less to keep straight all the time.

My buds absolutely don't look like they're suffering- and neither do those who smoke them!


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Yeah those look nice. Nothing like this dudes shit with that jacks hydro and citrus feed. Idk wtf hes doing wrong lol.
> 
> His shit looks like that canadien bc bud but smells like air basically, no resin content anything. As u can see mine already getting frosty and his have like nothing. He must be fuckin up the feedings or something not sure now that I see that stuff.


I can back up RM3's experience with dry nutrients. I used to use Jacks with good results. I now use a similar product from Hydrogardens.com because they're more local to me.

Once a grower learns something about nutrients, solutions and how they work, they go into shock about how much money they've been screwed out of for silly water bottles full of stock solutions.

Then, they feel a little stupid, a lot gypped and plenty mad about it! 

I promise, if your buddy is growing garbage with Jacks, it's his lousy technique that's to blame and not the nutes or the cut.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

ODanksta said:


> I defoliate when I trim


Dude. Cutting your fingers off doesn't count! How many times I gotta tell you that?


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> perhaps before you say it is harmful or that plants don't like it, you should try it?
> 
> as I already said the ambient room temp is 79, the canopy is 90 the room is 500 sq ft completely wide open, the grow area is 5 X 5 or 25 sq ft
> 
> I've only been doin this for 40 years and have written 2 books on the subject as I also breed, but what do I know ?


You don't know shit, you're just bragging on your closet pot...

LOL, j/k! You're one of the most knowledgeable people I know on this subject. If you're doing it, it's only because it works.

We need to get together one of these first days and have ourselves a good canna-versation... it's a little overdue by now, wouldn't you agree?


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Im assuming thats a haze strain/sativa of some kind way it looks like its growing?
> 
> U got some final cured shots Id like to see what the Jacks aqua results look like. Compared to this kid I know whose cuts im running now. Im tryin prove its the nutrients he wont listen, he swears the strain is crap but I think he full a shit.


Then you'll both be wrong, lol


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I regulate my entire room by the canopy temps. If my canopy temp is say 75-76 the floor and rest of my room is probably high 60s or low 70s. Think about it, if you are really trying to mimic nature you would grow outside lol.
> 
> The whole point of indoor growing is to be able to have total control over your garden which is why the quality is so much better indoors. Also even outside when its really hot out the roots in the ground are still gonna be very cool. Which is exactly what you want go do inside. Having your roots in a good habitable zone of 60-65F is perfect. If your room is 90F at canopy and 75-80 as the ambient temperature your containers and roots are probably around that temperature as well. Thats the reason I asked if thats why you were using cold water to balance out the issue and keep your roots and containers cooler (to me this would make sense).
> 
> I know some strain like warmer climates as well but even so having a 90-F canopy is a definite big time no-no for me. At that point youre losing terpene and resin production. Photosynthesis and ATP is slowing down and you would most likely have bigger, denser flowers if you cooled that canopy down alot. Unless youre running co2 also? I just dont know why you run it so hot besides fact you cant cool down T5's but still. Thats hot man


Pot grows wild in higher temps and does just fine in the resin and terpene production dept. You can ask some of RM3.s friends about how much terpene production he's losing... after they wake up from their weed naps, lol

My rooms run in the low to mid 80s and the only things people say about my resin production run along the lines of, 'holy shit! It snowed on here!'


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

RM3 said:


> I'm the guy that wrote the truth about flushing thread here LOL


'Flushing is for toilets', about sums it up right? LOL


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

DCobeen said:


> I just was in RM3's garden and you can hide a powerade 32 oz bottle behind his buds. He wasnt lying when he said "I have some of the strongest weed in the world" his ctf which I grew is amazing and strong. I looked at his gauges and will see my canopy temps as my room is usually around 76-80 with lights on and I know the canopy is hotter. Dont buy or use the mj nutrients as they will just cost you 5x more $$$. My weed is amazing and Rm3 has better but I expect that as he is teaching me how to do it right. When he types listen. We just had a bunch of us from his thread meet up and we all agreed his is the strongest weed we have smoked hands down. There was a few that was close but he is the king.


Yeah. I'm still bummin' I missed it.


----------



## DCobeen (Jul 17, 2015)

you live so close you should have made it. you missed a great time.


----------



## Trippyness (Jul 17, 2015)

Defoliation works and works well.
Increases yield ! I have tested this.
Works like crazy in Hydro.


----------



## ttystikk (Jul 17, 2015)

DCobeen said:


> you live so close you should have made it. you missed a great time.


It was a bad weekend for me.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Defoliation and flushing will be a never ending debate for whatever reasons. Im not gonna continue to argue. They both work when done correctly.

Its not by some imaginery fairy who came down and tried these techniques and methods out to fck with people. They are tried and true methods that definetely work and the reasoning and science behind them is simple and easy to understand. Whether you use them or dont it doesnt matter but its there for you to try out and see for yourself.

My friends wife is a laboratory cannabis analyst who tests flowers for dispensaries. Primarily to see what amounts of fertilizers, pesticides, molds, fungus and the obvious thc, cbn & cbd content of flowers.

Plants that are flushed when growing synthetic nutrients contain way less contaminants, heavy metals and less nutrient residuals stored in their cells. Thc and terpene content on flushed plants is usually higher and often is able to cure and break down chlorophyll leading to better flowers for consumption. They have these labs and pay people specifically to test this stuff out and it obviously works because I see the evidence with my own eyes. And anyone can google the information themselves. Having first hand information regarding this subject and access to someone who does this for a living I am absoltely positive and rest assured correct as this information I am giving you is absolutely true. 

Take it for what its worth noone needs to believe me im just giving me input and information that I know first hand and I am passing it along to anyone interested. I like to know what im smoking and ingesing into my body. So for me this information is important and if I can flush my plants to remove and limit the amounts of cancer causing heavy metals and contaminants in my flowers by using water and enzymes to break down the crap we forced our plants to uptake than I am all for it.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

> Plants that are flushed when growing synthetic nutrients contain way less contaminants, heavy metals and less nutrient residuals stored in their cells.


Please post just one scientific paper that details how flushing a plant removes heavy metals from its cells once they are there?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

U can use almost any nutrients out there to grow bud. It comes down to personal preference and what works best for you.

I would never use those products because I dont like using straight synthetic fertilizers because I know what they do to final product. Theres nothing better than the taste, smells and aromas from growing organics. Theres nothing wrong w running those nutrients and ppl proly like em because they are so cheap and inexpensive. And if thats your goal to save money than use it and enjoy. Im just not a fan of their products for that reason.

Im sure they work great, but the stuff ive seen from jacks i wasnt impressed at all. But thats my experience with it and I cant speak for anyone else. I only know what I have seen for myself and my experiences with it, that doesnt mean I am correct at all, its just what I know thru personal experience.

Just like everyone else trying to argue about shit. U only know what u know it doesnt mean ur right or wrong. Thats just ur experience from limited exposure to certain things its not a fault and doesnt make u right or wrong. Thats the great thing about life we live and learn, im just a person who wants to see proof in something before I talk about it with no conviction based on what I know.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Its like the guy Dr. Whoever he is saying that oh Jorge Cervantes says to leave your leaves on and not to defoliate.

Well theres 10 other master growers who say you absolutely should defoliate. 

So the big question lies: who is right?

You cant just take someones word for it because u like them, you need to find out for urself. Im not a person who listens to one guy tell me something wrong and run with it unless I ve done the research for myself and prove it isnt true.

Thats the same reason scientist repeatedly do the same expirements over and over and over. And until they get the same exact results every time than it is nothing more than a theory not a principle. but they never take someone else's words for it ever. You just cant do that, u need to try it for yourself.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Its like the guy Dr. Whoever he is saying that oh Jorge Cervantes says to leave your leaves on and not to defoliate.
> 
> Well theres 10 other master growers who say you absolutely should defoliate.
> 
> ...


did you miss my question? I'll repeat it 



> Plants that are flushed when growing synthetic nutrients contain way less contaminants, heavy metals and less nutrient residuals stored in their cells.


Please post just one scientific paper that details how flushing a plant removes heavy metals from its cells once they are there?


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

so, WHY DON"T THE BUDS YELLOW WHEN FLUSHING??????????????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

RM3 said:


> did you miss my question? I'll repeat it
> 
> 
> Please post just one scientific paper that details how flushing a plant removes heavy metals from its cells once they are there?


Youre not gonna remove all the heavy metals they get stored into cells and tissue. But when you flush youre removing excess nutrients and additional metals into the flowers during ripening stage. And when u test the flowers for metal and nutrient content obviously the flushed ones dont have nearly as much heavy metals and contaminants in their flowers.

Go on youtube or videos they have on heavy 16 and other synthetic nutrients people were putting the flowers in the microwave and they were sparking from all the contaminants in the shit.

Thats why I dont use straight synthetic shit like jacks, dynagro, heavy 16 or gh that are all lab made synthetics. Theres so much shit if u knew what was in there u wudnt even want to smoke it.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> so, WHY DON"T THE BUDS YELLOW WHEN FLUSHING??????????????????????????????????????????????????????


They would turn yellow if you just gave them water for 4 straight weeks. Because they wud use all the stored nutrients in the plant to stay green. Once those stored reserves went to 0 ur flowers would turn yellow.

You obviously are harvesting and picking them before this happens buddy


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Its funny you can have 2 of the biggest well known cannabis cultivators argue over defoliation and flushing. Just look at Cervantes vs Rosenthal.

Cervantes says dont remove leaves and Rosenthal says you should absolutely remove leaves on big tall bushy indoor plants.

Same goes for flushing one guy says you should other guy says its doesnt matter. U can listen to whoever u want. Im just on the side of defoliation and flushing, because I see a difference in my final yields and quality.

Its no point in arguing youre not gonna change my opinion I probably wont change yours. So im posting my knowledge and experience if you like it great, if u disagree so be it. 

Im at least adding information as to why it works. Youre just saying it doesnt and cant provide any argument as to why.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> They would turn yellow if you just gave them water for 4 straight weeks. Because they wud use all the stored nutrients in the plant to stay green. Once those stored reserves went to 0 ur flowers would turn yellow.
> 
> You obviously are harvesting and picking them before this happens buddy


so, then you didn't Flush/remove anything from the buds then,right?

and that's not flushing, that's killing them


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> They would turn yellow if you just gave them water for 4 straight weeks. Because they wud use all the stored nutrients in the plant to stay green. Once those stored reserves went to 0 ur flowers would turn yellow.
> 
> You obviously are harvesting and picking them before this happens buddy


Sounds like you are sayin we need to flush for 4 weeks now instead of 2 lmao

I actually like you, and am not trying to argue with you, some (a lot) of what I have seen you post is good stuff ! Some not so much ?

The most expensive cannabis in the world is Malano Creme it goes for 90 pounds british a gram that's $140 US ,,,,,,, If ya had some in your hands right now, would ya smoke it ?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> so, then you didn't Flush/remove anything from the buds then,right?
> 
> and that's not flushing, that's killing them


 I dont know what you are saying. Your saying since they are still green they didnt get flushed?

Thats not true. Its the amount in them. Obviously theres always going to be trace amounts of nutrients left over. Photosynthesis is what keeps them green because of the cholorophyll in the plants is there. Which is why when they dry and cure they turn white because the cholorphyll breaks down and the green is gone if u did it properly.

None of my flowers ever dry green in color. They are always nice and white, or very limited shade of green. Because the cholorphyll breaks down has nothing to do with nutrients my dude nothing at all.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Sounds like you are sayin we need to flush for 4 weeks now instead of 2 lmao
> 
> I actually like you, and am not trying to argue with you, some (a lot) of what I have seen you post is good stuff ! Some not so much ?
> 
> The most expensive cannabis in the world is Malano Creme it goes for 90 pound british a gram that's $140 US ,,,,,,, If ya had some in your hands right now, would ya smoke it ?


Some of the best weed I ever smoked was on vacation in the islands filled with seeds. Been growing it there for hundreds of years and looked like complete shit.

I know your point. Im talking about indoor growing and reducing the impact of chemical cancer causing agents in ur meds. Flushing does help remove toxins and salts from ur meds and in turn provides smoother, better tasting flowers. I can always tell if someone flushed, ppl say they cant I absolutely can with no doubt in my mind know the difference.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I dont know what you are saying. Your saying since they are still green they didnt get flushed?
> 
> Thats not true. Its the amount in them. Obviously theres always going to be trace amounts of nutrients left over. Photosynthesis is what keeps them green because of the cholorophyll in the plants is there. Which is why when they dry and cure they turn white because the cholorphyll breaks down and the green is gone if u did it properly.
> 
> None of my flowers ever dry green in color. They are always nice and white, or very limited shade of green. Because the cholorphyll breaks down has nothing to do with nutrients my dude nothing at all.


lol


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Im not gonna continue to argue over a mute point. Noone opinions will change its a waste of my time and yours i promise so lets just agree to disagree and kp it moving.

I defoliate and i flush. And my flowers are white when dried because i cure properly and all the chlorophyll is removed from this process. If u flowers are still green when done curing something is wrong. It shud have very little if any green remaining in them at all.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Green = chlorophyll and active plant materials which is why they are green

Your flowers depending on what nutrients u use and the variety dictate colors.

White, golden, brown, purple etc.. Green is no good it will taste like live plant material and not burn correctly.

U wanna argue about this too?


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Some of the best weed I ever smoked was on vacation in the islands filled with seeds. Been growing it there for hundreds of years and looked like complete shit.
> 
> I know your point. Im talking about indoor growing and reducing the impact of chemical cancer causing agents in ur meds. Flushing does help remove toxins and salts from ur meds and in turn provides smoother, better tasting flowers. I can always tell if someone flushed, ppl say they cant I absolutely can with no doubt in my mind know the difference.


Oh how I would love to do a blind test with you  you could not be more wrong 

and my point about the Malano Creme is ,,,,, it is grown in the Kulu Valley where there are 3 lead mines, an active volcano and a hot sulfur springs that runs thru it. There is so much lead sulfate in the hot springs that it turns the drinking water white in several of the towns & villages (yes, I've done the research) IOW it is grown in an area rife with heavy metals and is still the highest priced cannabis in the world


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Only thing with any green should be leaves. And usually those arent as green either but this was only a quick 5 day flush I went on vacay and had cut early bcuz they finished sooner than I expected. Notice all the buds are white, they were green before I cut em down. But now all chlorophyll broke down. So the question why are buds not yellow its bcuz if chlorophyll has nothing to do w nutrients.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Oh how I would love to do a blind test with you  you could not be more wrong
> 
> and my point about the Malano Creme is ,,,,, it is grown in the Kulu Valley where there are 3 lead mines, an active volcano and a hot sulfur springs that runs thru it. There is so much lead sulfate in the hot springs that it turns the drinking water white in several of the towns & villages (yes, I've done the research) IOW it is grown in an area rife with heavy metals and is still the highest priced cannabis in the world


I would take that challenge any day and pass with flying colors promise u this.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

I wouldnt even wanna smoke some shit near any lead based soil near a volcano. U shud find out all pplwho smoke and age and amount of ppl who get cancer. Its probably astronomical


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

yep, you win, those buds are so white, i had to get my sunglasses,lol


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

My buddy who grows using the current culture and has his own personal shit he does all organics. Same exact strain which is the g13 haze i spoke about. Not only does it smell and taste completely different it also looks completely different as well.

The all organic g13 is covered in resins, has purple all throughout the flowers and smells and taste so much better. It also burns smoother and is way less harsh on ur throat. If he rolls up 2 joints and asks me which one is which I can tell immediately, as u can taste the metals from after taste in ur mouth from the current culture. He uses Gh 3 part in that system.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

I dont have one of those crazy cameras u guys use that just a iphone pic, when my wife gets home ill borrow hers and upload them gimme a half hour or so and ill post.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Point was that those were green as grass before they were cut n cured. Now they arent and its because of chlorophyll not nutrients that was the point but u missed it obviously


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Only thing with any green should be leaves. And usually those arent as green either but this was only a quick 5 day flush I went on vacay and had cut early bcuz they finished sooner than I expected. Notice all the buds are white, they were green before I cut em down. But now all chlorophyll broke down. So the question why are buds not yellow its bcuz if chlorophyll has nothing to do w nutrients.
> 
> View attachment 3461819


Nice buds for sure but to me is not white but rather several shades of green

You have your wife doin lab test on who knows how many improperly grown buds and some anecdotal youtube spark me up vid

and I have a patient that is hypersensitive as in carries an epi pen, wears a breathing mask outside, has a hepa filter system in his house and smokes my buds with zero issue

and I use Jack's all the way thru and never flush


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> My buddy who grows using the current culture and has his own personal shit he does all organics. Same exact strain which is the g13 haze i spoke about. Not only does it smell and taste completely different it also looks completely different as well.
> 
> The all organic g13 is covered in resins, has purple all throughout the flowers and smells and taste so much better. It also burns smoother and is way less harsh on ur throat. If he rolls up 2 joints and asks me which one is which I can tell immediately, as u can taste the metals from after taste in ur mouth from the current culture. He uses Gh 3 part in that system.


you can't flush an organic soil, so, how can that be? HMMMM?


----------



## jacksthc (Jul 18, 2015)

I tried defoliation, trimming, lst and topping my plants years ago

the results was not great at first but I could see the potential would be amazing over time 

I could trim, train the plants into any shap I wanted and every shoot would have the perfect spacing, light, air flow it needs to grow, to give me the best yeild the plant could ever produced 

over the last few years my results are getting better every crop and so I keep watching and learning how my plants grow 

just don't why anyone thinks growing plants in a pot and hopping for the best will give you the yeild, they will need less time in veg but thats only a week 

taking nearly any strain, low plant count and 
getting a full level canopy in late flower is real skill and this can be pull off with enough practice


----------



## Silky T (Jul 18, 2015)

Semper.Fi said:


> I'm trying to remove leaves before the plant's metabolism includes them as, and makes them, larger storage facilities. Leaving it till the plant relies on the leaves heavily for storage, I find is more detrimental to the plant, it messes with the internal workings; it's metabolism; shocks it too much.
> 
> I've found that if they are nipped off earlier, whilst they are still being built INTO the storage facilities, the metabolism of the plant simply does not halt, if anything, if the plant is growing 100%, it quickens the growth of the next leaf and internode above, stops the vertical growth of the internode the leaf was just starting to power AND fires auxin and the likes into the intern node itself . . . . the repair mechanism ??
> 
> ...


I came here just for this reason. Trim or not to trim. Mine is a matter of the leaves turning yellow because I used too strong of a nute mixture and had to flush them. I went from bushy green plants to having some of my new little leaves turning yellow and a couple of the large fan leaves! I was horrified but after long thought, I went ahead and trimmed the yellow leaves. I like this comment from above "if anything, if the plant is growing 100%, it quickens the growth of the next leaf and internode above" That's what I'm hoping. The girls are in their later stages of growth, probably another two to three weeks and they're done. The two fan leaves were out from this center nug and I figured it's about done so all it has to do is get frostier--hopefully.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I wouldnt even wanna smoke some shit near any lead based soil near a volcano. U shud find out all pplwho smoke and age and amount of ppl who get cancer. Its probably astronomical


well again you are wrong, cancer cases in the Kullu Valley region of India are at 10,000 with 1800 to 2000 new cases a year. http://www.tribuneindia.com/2011/20110725/himachal.htm#9

The lowest new cases per year in the US is 2890 in Wyoming with Texas having 115,730 new cases in 2014 www.cancer.org/Research/CancerFactsStatistics/CancerFactsFigures2014/estimated-new-cases-by-state-2014.pdf


----------



## GIJonas (Jul 18, 2015)

Talk about backing into a corner lol.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> you can't flush an organic soil, so, how can that be? HMMMM?


You can flush anything. But the point is organic dont need it ur not using synthetic lab made shit w all the contaminants in it. Thats the point of growing organics DUH


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

http://news.health.com/2009/11/06/thyroid-cancer-higher-volcanic-areas/

Come on anyone can pull a simple article to refute something. This article says cancer rates in places w volcano is thyroid cancer is prevalant so just stop man. Im not arguing w u about this


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Marijuana is also illegal in India and not alot of people smoke it like they do in the US. I said get an article that shows out of the people in that area who smoke marijuana grown by that volcano the amount of ppl who get cancer out of that group of individuals. Not the entire population.

Lead is a cancerous causing if u grow something near a volcano with all those toxins and metals from Earth it aint good for you period. Take Hawaii for example thats a known issue out there.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> You can flush anything. But the point is organic dont need it ur not using synthetic lab made shit w all the contaminants in it. Thats the point of growing organics DUH


you can flush bennies and fungus out of the soil? organic doesn't need it, then how do you remove the chlorophyll and get "white" better tasting buds from organic grown? It just doesn't compute batman


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

So ur not answering or refuting my point about chlorophyll.

Chlorophyll doesnt make ur plants and buds green when they r growing? So when u cure ur plants do they stay green like they were before u cut them?

R they green bcuz of nutrients or chlorophyll?

Exactly, nutrients stored in plant have nothing to do w color of the flowers. Its the chlorophyll. And when u starve a plant and its no longer able to contine ATP AND PHOTOSYNTHESIS it deplete nutrient reserves and will eventually turn yellow. If u flush long enough this will happen to the flowers as well and they would turn yellow too.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> So ur not answering or refuting my point about chlorophyll.
> 
> Chlorophyll doesnt make ur plants and buds green when they r growing? So when u cure ur plants do they stay green like they were before u cut them?
> 
> ...


 gonna call the apple tree farmers and let them know, for a better tasting apple, kill your trees right before you harvest those apples, makes sense to me.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

You think we're arguing and I thought we were havin a conversation ?

I give you totals for all cancers and you come back with one lmao 

The folks in Malano smoke the creme lol do the research 

notions my friend based only on core beliefs and perceptions will always cloud your mind, once you gain an open mind you will learn and understand so much more

Pot grown in these volcanic regions, is the best there is. Why do you think Azomite is so popular and OMRI certified LMAO


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> you can flush bennies and fungus out of the soil? organic doesn't need it, then how do you remove the chlorophyll and get "white" better tasting buds from organic grown? It just doesn't compute batman


What do bennies and fungus have to do with heavy metals and contaminants?

Ur obviously lost in this conversation.

Flushing is to reduce and remove contaminants from synthetic nutrients. I never said anything other than thisYOU CAN FLUSH ANYTHING.

You can flush all the nutrients out of an organic medium. You can wash away everything in the medium if u flush long enough. DUH

ur just trying to turn this conversation into something its not. 

Chlorophyll is broken down by curing!! R U SERIOUS???

Wow man. U have alot to learn. Chlorophyll has nothing to do w nutrients or sources of them whatsoever. I dont like to say this often but ur an idiot. Sorry had to be said


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

RM3 said:


> You think we're arguing and I thought we were havin a conversation ?
> 
> I give you totals for all cancers and you come back with one lmao
> 
> ...


Im conversating w you for sure. The other guys arguing and talkin about shit i never even said anything about lol


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 18, 2015)

Azomite is just a process formed from volcanic activity. Its a mineral deposit that is left over. Its obviously all organic deposit thats collected.

Thats not growing marijuana in a lead based soil near a volcano man. Come on


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> What do bennies and fungus have to do with heavy metals and contaminants?
> 
> Ur obviously lost in this conversation.
> 
> ...


Ok, I am the idiot, I only took YOUR words and asked you to provide answers to your contradicting statements.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Azomite is just a process formed from volcanic activity. Its a mineral deposit that is left over. Its obviously all organic deposit thats collected.
> 
> Thats not growing marijuana in a lead based soil near a volcano man. Come on


Have you looked at the specs on Azomite, there is lead in it as well as several other heavy metals


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

according to this guy, You flush a synthetic grow to remove stored nutrients, heavy metal and contaminates to make a better tasting smoke, YET, if you are organic, you don't need to flush because there are no heavy metals or contaminates or stored nutrients? yet he then says, it is the removal of chlorophyll during the drying and curing process that makes it taste better. I must be an idiot, because I am really confused. can you not dry and cure a synthetic grow? so confused


----------



## haulinbass (Jul 18, 2015)

Cant change peoples minds, smoked a joint that burned funny and sparked, dude said it was because there was still nutes in it. Had to go into my room cut a bud 6 weeks in getting fed at 900ppm, threw it in the microwave and dried it for him and told him to smoke it. No sparks just a clean white ash, the dark ash and sparking is from wet bud that wont burn properly.
much like when you throw a wet log on a campfire, it sparks doesnt burn right and leaves a heavy black ash.
btw both jorge c and ed rosenthal arnt fucking growers, they get paid to put their names on product for marketing


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 18, 2015)

and it was also my understanding that plants use both organic and in organic materials,


----------



## RM3 (Jul 18, 2015)

To the OP HooRah
sorry for the threadjack


----------



## pseudobotanist (Jul 19, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> You can flush anything. But the point is organic dont need it ur not using synthetic lab made shit w all the contaminants in it. Thats the point of growing organics DUH


You might want to read this
http://puyallup.wsu.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/403/2015/03/organic-superiority.pdf

Also that "synthetic lab made shit" is in a form that is immediately ready for the plants use. Unlike organic fertilizer which isn't ready right away and needs to be broken down into an inorganic soluble form (slow release fert)

And as for your India comment, plenty of people smoke and use cannabis. It's even mentioned in the Vedas or Hindu texts which mentions cannabis as one of their 5 sacred plants. 

While you are quite knowledgable, I feel you speak out of conjecture and the people who have been responding to your posts the most are pretty well known on this site for sifting thru the bullshit of "forum paradigms".


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 19, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Have you looked at the specs on Azomite, there is lead in it as well as several other heavy metals


Yes it has deposits of lead but very minute trace amounts. Everyone know lead is a contaminant which is why we dont use lead based paints anymore. Last thing Im gonna say regarding the whole convo about flushing is that theres plenty of research on the benefits from flushing synthetic nutrients from your plants

It does work to an extent. No not everything will come out especially shit stored into cells and plant tissue. But it reduces the amounts of metals and nutrients leading to cleaner better smoke.

Go send out tissue samples and flowers to the company of a flushed plant vs one that wasnt they will send u the results and u can see if it works for yourself instead of arguing about it.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 19, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Yes it has deposits of lead but very minute trace amounts. Everyone know lead is a contaminant which is why we dont use lead based paints anymore. Last thing Im gonna say regarding the whole convo about flushing is that theres plenty of research on the benefits from flushing synthetic nutrients from your plants
> 
> It does work to an extent. No not everything will come out especially shit stored into cells and plant tissue. But it reduces the amounts of metals and nutrients leading to cleaner better smoke.
> 
> Go send out tissue samples and flowers to the company of a flushed plant vs one that wasnt they will send u the results and u can see if it works for yourself instead of arguing about it.


what if I sent them a organic grown(unflushed) vs a flushed synthetic grown? Again, does organic grown nitrogen differ from synthetic grown nitrogen? I'm pretty sure they are both the same ION. so, how come organic grown, Unflushed supposedly tastes better, I just don't get it and/or your not explaining it good enough for an idiot like me.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 19, 2015)

Thats the whole point of flushing synthetics. Ur force feeding ur plants. By flushing they are uptaking water not more nutrients storing them in the buds when they dont need any more nutrients to ripen. 

When u run organics ur plants are barely even taking up any nutrients in the final weeks because they dont need it. Which is why people who dont flush usually taper down feedings in the final weeks because u want ur flowers to ripen to continue to eat and produce energy and growth
Fluhsing serves multiple purposes removing excess salts and nutrient and metals is only one point. Flushing also serves purpose of ripening flowers and preparing for harvest. Reducing nutrient uptake helps aid the plant into finishing and ripening up in turn causing the yellowing and colors to come out.

Its whatever im done on subject that all i have to say on it. Up to u to learn for urself and figure it out.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 19, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Thats the whole point of flushing synthetics. Ur force feeding ur plants. By flushing they are uptaking water not more nutrients storing them in the buds when they dont need any more nutrients to ripen.
> 
> *When u run organics ur plants are barely even taking up any nutrients in the final weeks because they dont need it.* Which is why people who dont flush usually taper down feedings in the final weeks because u want ur flowers to ripen to continue to eat and produce energy and growth
> Fluhsing serves multiple purposes removing excess salts and nutrient and metals is only one point. Flushing also serves purpose of ripening flowers and preparing for harvest. Reducing nutrient uptake helps aid the plant into finishing and ripening up in turn causing the yellowing and colors to come out.
> ...


lol


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 19, 2015)

because the plant only takes in what it needs when it needs it, if it's in organic soil? so, how does it know if those nutrients are from an organic source, or a synthetic source?


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 19, 2015)

AND, didn't you say earlier that it takes time for an organic soil to break down materials before they become available to the plant? Well, wouldn't they be most available at the end, after they have had time to breakdown? HMMM?

isn't that WHY they re use it?


----------



## Dr. Who (Jul 20, 2015)

This thread still has SO MUCH potential......
It's sad that it had to be invaded by a grower(questionable) who had to spout his views as non refutable facts ,,, to even non related topics that others felt compelled to answer (in a relative way,,I understand).
Please,,,,,stop!!!

@Semper.Fi
Please continue! I am watching this thread with great expectations.......The point being. In the end we will SEE the proof by actual side by side testing with pics!

Doc
"crazy shit"


----------



## ButchyBoy (Jul 20, 2015)

And yet another thread has headed in a different direction! 

I popped in to see how this comparison was going just to see another off topic argument.... Geesh!!! 

Is the OP going to continue the original topic?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 20, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> because the plant only takes in what it needs when it needs it, if it's in organic soil? so, how does it know if those nutrients are from an organic source, or a synthetic source?


Because u still dont understand what im talking about.

Im talking about synthetic nutrients that contain heavy metals, contaminants and salts
organics dont contain these things!
So obviously im not talking about organics I never was I said flushing when running synthetics. You my friend are the one who turned it into something I never said

YOU FLUSH FOR FINAL 2 weeks beginning with a low strength solution 1/4 strength beginning of the 2 week before harvest to break down and remove the salts in the root zone. As the root zone is depleted of nutrients the plant uses the stored nutrient and by continuing to feed with plain water they are no longer absorbing additional contaminants, salts, hevay metals or nutrients

Therefore your final product IE THE FLOWERS will not be heavily concentrated with excessive contaminants, salts, heavy metals and nutrients because you have not been giving them to the plant.

Its an easy concept to understand. IDK WHYyou brought up the organics since I never said u needed to flush running organics (this is something u said and asked not me) i responded by saying you can flush any medium using any nutrients. If you flush your soil and leach it than the organic nutrients will also be flushed out as well. Thats the purpose of flushing. There are no contaminants and heavy metals in organics that is the point. Its not as necessary because they arent in ur medium or in ur plant because u never fed them thay shit to begin with.

Hows this a difficult concept to understand? I really dont get it why ur turning what I said into what u want me to say so u can make a point that was never being discussed to begin with.

And NO plants dont know where the source of nutrient they are getting is derived from synthetic or organic (N) is nitrogen. Its whats it the nitrogen and source that is the difference. If u are using veganics or plant based sources obviously there arent gonna be contaminants and metals in the nutrients are there? NO THERE WONT BE. 
If u used synthetic nutrients THERE WILL BE. So u want to flush them out as much as u can to stop the onslaught on pounding ur plants with these sources of poisons. 
Its not a mystery why cannabis clubs out west test flowers at their dispensaries and make people label what their products where grown with. Because synthetics have shit people dont wanna ingest inhale into their bodies which is why everyone wants organic grown pot.

Not only cannabis but also food as well. Which is why health conscious people want to consume food from organic natural grown farms. Not from farms using these chemical nutrients and its for these exact reasons.

All be the case if u dont want to flush dont fckin do it. I just made a recommendation that ur flowers are better when u do. Taste, smell, how it burns etc..

You guys are obviously on the dont flush and dont defoliate train so stay on stick with it and its all good. I dont care. I posted information for people who are interested and do care about what they smoke and how their final product comes out. If u dont like it or believe in it so be it.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 20, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Because u still dont understand what im talking about.
> 
> Im talking about synthetic nutrients that contain heavy metals, contaminants and salts
> organics dont contain these things!
> ...


LOL


----------



## Jimdamick (Jul 20, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> My buddy who grows using the current culture and has his own personal shit he does all organics. Same exact strain which is the g13 haze i spoke about. Not only does it smell and taste completely different it also looks completely different as well.
> 
> The all organic g13 is covered in resins, has purple all throughout the flowers and smells and taste so much better. It also burns smoother and is way less harsh on ur throat. If he rolls up 2 joints and asks me which one is which I can tell immediately, as u can taste the metals from after taste in ur mouth from the current culture. He uses Gh 3 part in that system.


Your posts are pretty much accurate in the sense that organics do taste better. As far as burn goes, that is mostly in the cure in my opinion, although it can be argued that synthetics do affect it. Most good nute companies recommend dropping the PPM/EC for the final 3 weeks of bloom, which I definitely do. I run 3 recirculating drip systems (different rooms) that I stop adding nutes to during the last 2-2.5 weeks of bloom. I run a high ppm solution (1400 PPM), and at week 5, do a complete system flush (Clearex for 3 hours), and just add fresh water to the res. My PPM after a day of just water will be still be 1400, at least. As day's go by, by just adding water, the PPM will drop gradually to about 700-800 at week 8. The root system holds more than enough nutes in it to survive, for a shit long time, probably for months. Does flushing accomplish anything? In soil, no. In hydo, I think it does, as the reduction of available nutes in the feed water, causes the plant to pull more energy (chems) from the leaves, which (maybe) makes for a better burn and taste.


----------



## Jimdamick (Jul 20, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> This thread still has SO MUCH potential......
> It's sad that it had to be invaded by a grower(questionable) who had to spout his views as non refutable facts ,,, to even non related topics that others felt compelled to answer (in a relative way,,I understand).
> Please,,,,,stop!!!
> 
> ...


Ah Doc, this is way more entertaining that talking about chopping plants to pieces, and discussing the benefits of it.
Anyway, Chucky has Canabil on the ropes, but Canabil, it seems, is a worthy opponent. Nice. Plus we are discussing volcanoes, lead in paints, wild ganja in Africa and what Indians ( people from India) are smoking today, and a whole lot of other cool shit. This like the Discovery Channel, though one run by stoners. I love it


----------



## SPLFreak808 (Jul 20, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Because u still dont understand what im talking about.
> 
> Im talking about synthetic nutrients that contain heavy metals, contaminants and salts
> organics dont contain these things!
> ...


Whatever you give your plant doesnt matter if it is/was heavy metals early in flower, then it is in there late in flower. While metals chlorine ect can be fatal to us in large doses, our body actually still needs them to survive just like the plants! If we are starving, getting fed from an IV vs actually eating is very much like being synthetically fed, your body cant tell, its your stomach that breaks down food for minerals. Even my fully organically grown plants will take in heavy metals and contaminants from the air instead of the roots if the roots are dry. The need to not flush organics isnt because it doesnt have stored salt build ups, the plant naturally slows the soil life so it can feed itself via foliage. Its just nature, plants live and die.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

Even though cannabis is not considered a hyperaccumulator it does have a high biomass and is capable of accumulating heavy metals that it consumed and absorbs from the roots which are primarily stored in its leaves and shoots and also into its buds.

This is one problem with high (P) foods, phosphorus binds these metals and contaminants and causes all kinds of problems long term when run at high levels like most of the nutrients sold in this industry. Im sure everyone who reads these forums knows how bad high P foods are not only for plant health but for human health when ingesting or inhaling flowers grown from high P ferts. Its all around no bueno.

Not only do high P foods cause toxic build up in ur rhizosphere they also cause toxic build upof contaminants and heavy metals in ur plants. They bind this shit and in turn ur plants uptake them thru its roots and store them into ur plants tissues and cells.

By flushing u are reducing the impact of your plants absorbing and allocating the nutrients and contaminants into ur flowers especially during ripening. The purpose of flushing is to force the plant to convert the stored nutrients into sugars and carbs to provide energy to ur plant. By flushing ur enabling the plant to allocate the stored nutrients and diminishing the amount and concetration from uptaking more of these metals and toxins from ur roots (since u wont be supplying them with any) and it turn you are reducing the amount and levels stored in cells tissue from leaves and stems. 

You will never be able to remove all of the heavy metals and toxing stored in these cells and tissue but ur reducing the contents and amounts drastically during the flush which is important and ensures that the flowers will burn smoothly and less harsh than not flushing. Flushing is not anything new and isnt specific to cannabis as its done on many different plants. Same as defoliation MJ growers took this concept from other veggies and fruit applications that increased harvest and size of fruits and implemented it into cannabis cultivation and the same results happened which is increase in flower size and yields.

Thats why its important to know what sources of nutrients u are using since there are many different grades of fertilizers which all are processed and derived from diff sources. Some being far superior than others. Although a plant doesnt know what type of sources they are uptaking "we do" because we know what we are giving them. So being conscious of what we feed are plants leads to overall better quality meds and a peace of mind. Whether u feel its not the case isnt up for debate there are many sources and information regarding this subject all over the internet that are easy to access and obtain for any interested in it. Its up to us as growers to be aware of this fact and providing the best nutrients and safest products we can when growing our meds to ensure they are free from these harmful metals and toxins. Why not take the steps and use the information we have to grow good clean medicines? I know it makes a difference to me as well as other people. And in todays age i find it very important since so many ppl are health conscious and want to know what they r putting into their bodies. Thats why i dont grow using lab made synthetics and choose to use primarily organics in cultivating. The benefits definetely outweigh the cons. Even if im losing final yield by small amount its worth it in the end because quality is better and safer for consumption.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 21, 2015)

whew, good thing I use a low P nutrient. Scuse me, shit is getting thick in here, for someone who was done with this a LONGTIME ago, Pik-booster3 is still trying his hard sell.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

These bitches is some frosty mother F'ers yummy. Just started week 4 of these delicious sour D's. Ahhh cant fuckin wait!!


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> whew, good thing I use a low P nutrient. Scuse me, shit is getting thick in here, for someone who was done with this a LONGTIME ago, Pik-booster3 is still trying his hard sell.


Who is Pik-booster3? What the hell does that mean, is that me ur speaking too or someone else? Thanks


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

If you are speaking to me. What am I trying to sell? Im confused about this. I said before you dont have to do any of this it doesnt bother me. We can end the conversation now and move on to something else and Im cool with that too.

Just responding to all these messages I have and trying to explain my point which was over cast by non sense imho. But thats all fine and well. I guess this argument is over and noone agrees on whether you should or shouldnt flush your plants before harvest. I think you should, you say we shouldnt so be it. End of the conversation than no?


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> If you are speaking to me. What am I trying to sell? Im confused about this. I said before you dont have to do any of this it doesnt bother me. We can end the conversation now and move on to something else and Im cool with that too.
> 
> Just responding to all these messages I have and trying to explain my point which was over cast by non sense imho. But thats all fine and well. I guess this argument is over and noone agrees on whether you should or shouldnt flush your plants before harvest. I think you should, you say we shouldnt so be it. End of the conversation than no?


ok, pik-booster, let's move on


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> ok, pik-booster, let's move on


What does that mean? I dont get it. That supposed to be a name for something or a message that I missed somewhere. I dont know why you can't explain what that is all about.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

Im not on here calling you names so I dont know what your intent or purpose for you doing so is to begin with. But thats not cool man.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Im not on here calling you names so I dont know what your intent or purpose for you doing so is to begin with. But thats not cool man.


How is your hydro store doing?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> How is your hydro store doing?


Huh? What hydro store. I never said I have a hydro store. Who are you talking to? I've never said a word about a store, I think youre losing your marbles my friend.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> How is your hydro store doing?


whats your story anyways. You just come on here and hijack peoples threads and conversation to make yourself seem important or to occupy your day? Or are you a troll who just feels the need to butt into others peoples conversation. Me and RM3 were having a good discussion until you came into this conversation with your non sense and now your calling me names and talking about a hydro store when I never said anything about a store in any part of this conversation. Not to mention I rarely even go to any hydro stores not only because the closest one to me is over an hour away but prices at these places is ridiculous compared to online. Only thing I even grab a hydro stores is nutrients other than that I dont even go to them. So if you are attempting to start something I'd rather you just be upfront instead of talking about some bullsh*t and throwing shade in my direction.

If you dont like my opinions or my methods of growing all is well and thats fine with me, but Im not here to get into arguments with fellow growers about ridiculous non sense. If you wanna talk about growing lets do it, if you are here to be a d*ck bring it someone else who has time for it because I'd rather not engage in such activities. Thank you and I truly hope that you read it and that it soaks into your brain so we know where we both stand moving forward.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> whats your story anyways. You just come on here and hijack peoples threads and conversation to make yourself seem important or to occupy your day? Or are you a troll who just feels the need to butt into others peoples conversation. Me and RM3 were having a good discussion until you came into this conversation with your non sense and now your calling me names and talking about a hydro store when I never said anything about a store in any part of this conversation. Not to mention I rarely even go to any hydro stores not only because the closest one to me is over an hour away but prices at these places is ridiculous compared to online. Only thing I even grab a hydro stores is nutrients other than that I dont even go to them. So if you are attempting to start something I'd rather you just be upfront instead of talking about some bullsh*t and throwing shade in my direction.
> 
> If you dont like my opinions or my methods of growing all is well and thats fine with me, but Im not here to get into arguments with fellow growers about ridiculous non sense. If you wanna talk about growing lets do it, if you are here to be a d*ck bring it someone else who has time for it because I'd rather not engage in such activities. Thank you and I truly hope that you read it and that it soaks into your brain so we know where we both stand moving forward.


lol


----------



## Dr. Who (Jul 21, 2015)

Jimdamick said:


> Ah Doc, this is way more entertaining that talking about chopping plants to pieces, and discussing the benefits of it.
> Anyway, Chucky has Canabil on the ropes, but Canabil, it seems, is a worthy opponent. Nice. Plus we are discussing volcanoes, lead in paints, wild ganja in Africa and what Indians ( people from India) are smoking today, and a whole lot of other cool shit. This like the Discovery Channel, though one run by stoners. I love it


Yeah it is fun ain't it......I got the "cool it" bomb. So I'm watching......Don't really want any UB style "time outs"......I have a mostly round house - I'd go nuts just trying to find a corner!

PiK
Just who highjacked what?

Doc


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> Yeah it is fun ain't it......I got the "cool it" bomb. So I'm watching......Don't really want any UB style "time outs"......I have a mostly round house - I'd go nuts just trying to find a corner!
> 
> PiK
> Just who highjacked what?
> ...


What the hell is going on here. I must missed some posts on this thread what is a UB time out and I'm assuming Doc is "PiK" what does that stand for anyways i tried look it up and nothing comes up? Someone fill me in would be great.

Any who, I see Doc is back on here riled up waitin to start some trouble it seems. 

Maybe he can fill us all in on the art of growing and chime into this lovely conversation about flushing. Please drop some knowledge and wisdom on here I would like to know your thoughts on flushing and whether you think its worth doing or not doing with any information you have on this subject matter.

Aways open to hear others opinions on this matter.


----------



## pseudobotanist (Jul 21, 2015)

Not to be condescending but you didn't seem too open to hear opinions about flushing. I provided you with links and an explanation about your "organic" and synthetic fertilizer understanding. 

Based off that, organic ferts would last longer in your soil making your flushing method moot since no matter how many times you water your soil, if the microbes havnt converted that organic matter over into an inorganic matter it will remain in he soil


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

pseudobotanist said:


> Not to be condescending but you didn't seem too open to hear opinions about flushing. I provided you with links and an explanation about your "organic" and synthetic fertilizer understanding.
> 
> Based off that, organic ferts would last longer in your soil making your flushing method moot since no matter how many times you water your soil, if the microbes havnt converted that organic matter over into an inorganic matter it will remain in he soil


Because ur missing the point. You dont need to flush organics like u do with synthetics because the heavy metals and contaminants arent being forced into ur plant via the roots.

Thats the whole point of my conversation Im not talking about growing organics I never was. Im talking about using synthetics, im open to any discussion about any subject matter but if people arent listening to what I have to say and wanna argue and bring up things im not even talking about its quite frustrating.

Leave organics out of the conversation. Lets start over! Flushing is necessary for aiding in reduced amounts of heavy metals, toxins and contaminants including excessive salts when growing with SYNTHETIC NUTRIENTS.

The purpose in doing so is making sure your root zone is free from these harmful contaminants in turn reducing the levels and amounts of these concentrates from your flowers. Therefore your final product will result in a cleaner smoother product. Which will burn better, and also taste better because it does not contain the vast amounts of these bi product in your flowers. 

The purpose of flushing is multi-faceted in the fact that not only does it aid in reducing the toxic contaminants and levels in your flowers, but flushing also aids in ripening flowers by forcing them to deplete itself of stored nutrients in the leaves and stems and ultimately in your harvested flowers.

I dont know who brought up organics or talked about the diff in flushing when growing this way but it wasnt me. I believe it was chuck who said that plants cant tell where nutrients come from, how can you flush organics etc..

Anything can be flushed. Organics can also be flushed from your mediums just as easily as synthetics but it isnt needed because you dont have all the metals and contaminants that synthetic nutrient contain, so for its purpose isnt as necessary in doing so. It is always adviseable to flush any medium for a minimum of a week including organics. Reducing the amount of nutrients in your flowers leads to better cleaner smoke. Burns evenly, dries better and cures easier. Organic grown medicine always smells, tastes better and usually in my opinion smokes much better because it burns clean. You dont have the snaps and pops you get with heavily synthetic grown meds. And none of that chemical after taste in your mouth which i personally fcking hate.


----------



## pseudobotanist (Jul 21, 2015)

Can you link or provide a study or proof that a non flushed soil will contain the harmful contaminants you keep mentioning?

As far as taste and smoothness of smoke in my experience, all comes down you your curing process


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

pseudobotanist said:


> Can you link or provide a study or proof that a non flushed soil will contain the harmful contaminants you keep mentioning?
> 
> As far as taste and smoothness of smoke in my experience, all comes down you your curing process


I posted a link earlier in the thread and several others but ill post them again. Theres plenty of information online all u have to do is google it. 

Theres also peer reviewed articles written by professionals if u search google you can find them on their as well.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I posted a link earlier in the thread and several others but ill post them again. Theres plenty of information online all u have to do is google it.
> 
> Theres also peer reviewed articles written by professionals if u search google you can find them on their as well.


Just went thru ALL your posts in this thread, NOT 1 link in any post, this is the closest thing resembling a link

{quote}Go on youtube or videos they have on heavy 16 and other synthetic nutrients people were putting the flowers in the microwave and they were sparking from all the contaminants in the shit.{quote/}

and that is the funniest shit I have ever read.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 21, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> Just went thru ALL your posts in this thread, NOT 1 link in any post, this is the closest thing resembling a link
> 
> {quote}Go on youtube or videos they have on heavy 16 and other synthetic nutrients people were putting the flowers in the microwave and they were sparking from all the contaminants in the shit.{quote/}
> 
> and that is the funniest shit I have ever read.


Sorry link was in a diff thread my apologies. Im not responding on this thread any more im moving on.

Go get cervantes, rosenthal or mel franks book read it and they all talk about flushing.

Apparently the 3 jokers here in this thread chuck . Dr whoever and the other guy all know more than 3 master growers with over 100+ yrs growing experience. They all flush but i guess we shouldnt cuz these trio of goombahs says dont so u listen to whoever u want. 

Adios


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Sorry link was in a diff thread my apologies. Im not responding on this thread any more im moving on.
> 
> Go get cervantes, rosenthal or mel franks book read it and they all talk about flushing.
> 
> ...


*LOL*


----------



## Indagrow (Jul 21, 2015)

Back on track.. Any updates op?


What if you where to defoliate half of a plant and not the rest.. I'd say eliminate all variables but you don't truly have a control 

Any work done on that idea?.. Train the tops to one side.. Defoliate.. Leave the mass undefolated as in a sog trellis with the heads on one side the mass on the other.. And I'm rambling


----------



## jacksthc (Jul 22, 2015)

don't think defoliate half a plant will work 
imo the best way is to defoliate a plant is in early veg and stop defoliate the plants 3 weeks in flower 

removing all the weaker growth inturn thinning the plant out, shaping the canopy to make the most of the light 

so there less shoots and fan leaves but they get more light, air flow, and nutes 

just gives you a stronger heathy plant, where the stronger thicker shoots products a lot more sticky bud


----------



## Dr. Who (Jul 22, 2015)

Yeah, back on track please!
I can't wait to see the answer or end.......Blow some more myth outa the water!

I do some minor and I mean minor, lower trimming....I learned.
Now it's time for the truth.

Doc


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

Quick question - was this experiment done to conclusion? What were the results? I suspect the non defoliated plant would veg a bit better, but the defoliated plant could yield more, if done partway through flowering. All I see is 10 pages of arguing, and I'm legit curious as to how the experiment played out.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> Quick question - was this experiment done to conclusion? What were the results? I suspect the non defoliated plant would veg a bit better, but the defoliated plant could yield more, if done partway through flowering. All I see is 10 pages of arguing, and I'm legit curious as to how the experiment played out.


and i am wondering why YOU are hiding behind a new name?


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> and i am wondering why YOU are hiding behind a new name?


Because I just started reading on this site and decided to join so as to not miss out on any good grow techniques for my girls this year. Hiding? I made a profile how am I hiding. I think you are under the assumption I am someone you were arguing with earlier using an alias. This is not the case. I'm just curious as to which plant defoliated or not- seemed to do better if the experiment has gone far enough to tell.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> Because I just started reading on this site and decided to join so as to not miss out on any good grow techniques for my girls this year. Hiding? I made a profile how am I hiding. I think you are under the assumption I am someone you were arguing with earlier using an alias. This is not the case. I'm just curious as to which plant defoliated or not- seemed to do better if the experiment has gone far enough to tell.


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

My entire post is dedicated to asking if any conclusions were made from the experiment. I don't care to read 10 pages of arguing and shit posting, if you feel like posting memes and arguing and not advancing the conversation in any meaningful way go back to shit posting on /b please. I am not whoever you argued with before. I am a new member to this board and plan on posting pics and listening to other growers advice to maximize my yield and cure bud properly. I think that is the intention of this forum.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> My entire post is dedicated to asking if any conclusions were made from the experiment. I don't care to read 10 pages of arguing and shit posting, if you feel like posting memes and arguing and not advancing the conversation in any meaningful way go back to shit posting on /b please. I am not whoever you argued with before. I am a new member to this board and plan on posting pics and listening to other growers advice to maximize my yield and cure bud properly. I think that is the intention of this forum.


sure thing pik_booster4


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

This guys delusional man. What the hell is this pil booster shit u keep saying to people? Why cant you just explain it, is it some inside joke or something. First I thought you were talking to me, than Dr. whoever used PiK at the end of his post. Ans now youre saying it to this guy. So what the hell does this mean? 

If anyone knows what this guy is talking about than please feel free to fill me in and let me know I dont like to be the brunt of some inside joke. I dont know why you cant just answer the question anyways.

Obviously this other dude you just spoke to said he had another account so Im going to assume you think me or him or both of us is supposed to be some one else possibly?

Idk who he/she is but I can tell you that I have never had an account on this forum EVER. I used to be a member on another forum but not this one. So to clear shit up and keep it simple I can let u know with certainty that whoever you think I am I can promise you that you are misinformed. I cant speak for this other guy on here I dont know but I am not "PiK". I also searched posts and threads and dont even see a handle that begins with those letters so Im really confused as to who you are referring but I would appreciate it if you just layed that to rest.

Idk what your issue is with me as I have done nothing to you at all. Only thing I have done is posted my information and opinion on subjects in these threads and I practice what i preach. If that bothers you for whatever reason so be it. But the route you are taking is not only childish but a little pathetic. Name calling and attempting to be little people for their beliefs and methods of growing isnt something I intend on pursuing and find it to be quite a waste of time and pointless that a grown man would want to indulge in doing so.

I think we are all on this Earth to help and teach others whether it be life experiences or simply to show others how to live and be better people. If you learn anything from this conversation hopefully you can reflect on the way that you interact and speak to others and be more open minded and understanding on the purpose of life. Treat others how you want to be treated. If you think people respect you for trying to be a "bully" or belittling others for some sort of self gratification tha you have alot to learn about not ony life but being an adult and it would be nice if you were more mindful of other peoples feelings and emotions. Kind of sad to see someone who has to act in such a manner for attention. You can have an intelligent conversation and gain way more respect if you would learn how to act like an adult rather than a child. Maybe this will help you in your journey of life, maybe it was my purpose not to be on here to teach or provide cultivation practices but to help you become a better and more productive person in society. You my friend need to look in the mirror and self reflect.


----------



## RM3 (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> This guys delusional man. What the hell is this pil booster shit u keep saying to people? Why cant you just explain it, is it some inside joke or something. First I thought you were talking to me, than Dr. whoever used PiK at the end of his post. Ans now youre saying it to this guy. So what the hell does this mean?
> 
> If anyone knows what this guy is talking about than please feel free to fill me in and let me know I dont like to be the brunt of some inside joke. I dont know why you cant just answer the question anyways.
> 
> ...


Your answers lie in this thread,,,,

https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

this is awesome, now pik_booster is using 2 puppets to try and throw people off his trail, He isn't fooling ME. ONLY pik_booster would write paragraphs and get upset. LMFAO


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)




----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Im not upset about anything. Im just sad for you to be truthful. You have so much anymosity for someone apparently that you think other people are being imposters just to mess with you? If thats not egocentric I dont know what is. Im quite sure noone would go to such lengths just to appease you and your sense of supreme well-being. I can assure that is not the case. Although I cant speak for the other guy, rest assured your are not the important.

Moving along I see RM3 is back. I spoke to my buddy on another forum, apparently people know of you and you were the topic of conversation on icmag. You had a website that was private that you charged people to get accounts on or was this someone else with a similar handle as you?


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> this is awesome, now pik_booster is using 2 puppets to try and throw people off his trail, He isn't fooling ME. ONLY pik_booster would write paragraphs and get upset. LMFAO


Except you're retarded, shit posting, I have one handle on this forum (what would be the point of getting two?) and just joined this site today. I have no idea who you are, who you are arguing with, or why my post upset you. Unless you are answering my question which you aren't - you are shit posting.

That was a funny song though.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

RM3 said:


> Your answers lie in this thread,,,,
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/giving-defoliation-during-flower-a-try.839655/


What answer lies in that thread. I dont have time to look thru 200 pages my man. If have a specific post you would like to me read. Ill be happy to check it out. But Im not even going to attempt to read all that stuff.

But on page 1 that information by keef trees seems to be on par with my opinion regarding the purpose of defoliation.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^*LMFAO*


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> Except you're retarded, shit posting, I have one handle on this forum (what would be the point of getting two?) and just joined this site today. I have no idea who you are, who you are arguing with, or why my post upset you. Unless you are answering my question which you aren't - you are shit posting.


Im tellin u man this dudes a crack pot. He apprently has led himself to believe that both myself and you are someone else. And that we have the time to make up accounts simply to mess with him for whatever reason. 

I wouldnt even bother trying to argue. All he does in all the posts and threads I have read so far is argue with people and call people names. It is quite pathetic for its purpose. I do not know his issue but dont take it personal it seems to be a recoccurring theme with him. Wish him well for he needs help


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)




----------



## RM3 (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Im not upset about anything. Im just sad for you to be truthful. You have so much anymosity for someone apparently that you think other people are being imposters just to mess with you? If thats not egocentric I dont know what is. Im quite sure noone would go to such lengths just to appease you and your sense of supreme well-being. I can assure that is not the case. Although I cant speak for the other guy, rest assured your are not the important.
> 
> Moving along I see RM3 is back. I spoke to my buddy on another forum, apparently people know of you and you were the topic of conversation on icmag. You had a website that was private that you charged people to get accounts on or was this someone else with a similar handle as you?


LOL that was a long time ago and it was a one time fee to be in different section much like it was here years ago


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Answer me this. Why do you think that me and this other guy are the same person? It shouldnt be hard to explain and I would love to hear your reasoning for it. As i stated earlier I can leave you rest assured that you are sadly mistaken and would love to prove ou wrong.

If you want i will call u from my phone and u can get his number and we can 3 way chat because I can promise you that you are wrong. the only one here crying is you. If you need a tissue im here for u my friend.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

RM3 said:


> LOL that was a long time ago and it was a one time fee to be in different section much like it was here years ago


Oh so than they were speaking about you than that was my question. A couple of my buddies know who you are than. Thats all I was asking.


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

Are there not mods on this forum who ban random trolls, memers and shit posters with delusions of grandeur and paranoia like this troll? Who actually thinks someone would make two accounts just to argue with him? Then what log in and out of them and post a single comment that sounds fucking exhausting - sorry I got better things to do bro. Also I will gladly join a 3 way skype call to put this argument to rest. Add chattymcchatterson (steve babb)


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

They said you have some off the wall growing methods which sounds about right with what you have said so far since you agreed that you do your "own thing and dont have conventional" growing practices. No harm no foul. You came up in a conversation and i called my boy and he said he knows you lol


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> Are there not mods on this forum who ban random trolls, memers and shit posters with delusions of grandeur and paranoia like this troll? Who actually thinks someone would make two accounts just to argue with him? Then what log in and out of them and post a single comment that sounds fucking exhausting - sorry I got better things to do bro. Also I will gladly join a 3 way skype call to put this argument to rest. Add chattymcchatterson (steve babb)


Yeah Ill join it too i dont got skype but I will call someone and gladly prove this dude wrong with a smile on my face laughing at your self centered hysteria that ony you are capable of thinking you are that important when I can promise that aint the case at all.

Where u from anyways my dude? Im out in Rhode Island you?


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

*hows that fist up your ass?*


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

I think chuck likes getting fisted. He proly takes his little popcorn nugs he grows and shoves them up his ass for fun. Nothing like a nice enema high right chuck. Lol


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I think chuck likes getting fisted. He proly takes his little popcorn nugs he grows and shoves them up his ass for fun. Nothing like a nice enema high right chuck. Lol


No pik_booster, it is you that likes the fist up your puppet ass!!


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)




----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Wsp w the gay shit anyways? Why u got talk about putting shit in ur ass u got a fatuation with anal penetration? Maybe you can take those little baby buds you grow and grind em up and put it in a capsule and penetrate your anal cavity with it and maybe that will satisfy your thirst and craving for placing objects in your butt hole. Its supposed to be an exit not an entrance, remember that my friend its a life lesson you should practice. I just dont want you to make the news as the next weirdo we see with an xray from the hospital with an object lodged in ur anus your mother will definetely be upset and embarrased for you.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

thought you were done with this thread for the 10th time? Why do you keep coming back? why does your other account ONLY post in this thread?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> thought you were done with this thread for the 10th time? Why do you keep coming back? why does your other account ONLY post in this thread?


Inbox me ur number ill get this other dude number and we can call you. Than you can stop with your delusions. Idk why he posts in here fckin ask him. Ur a fuckin clown. Where u live at u live on east coast?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

I call u right now we can settle this and u can cut the shit ight how bout that. Send me ur number


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I call u right now we can settle this and u can cut the shit ight how bout that. Send me ur number


8675309


----------



## RM3 (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> *They said you have some off the wall growing methods* which sounds about right with what you have said so far since you agreed that you do your "own thing and dont have conventional" growing practices. No harm no foul. You came up in a conversation and i called my boy and he said he knows you lol


That I do


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Inbox me ur number ill get this other dude number and we can call you. Than you can stop with your delusions. Idk why he posts in here fckin ask him. Ur a fuckin clown. Where u live at u live on east coast?


I'm just a clown, WHY do you care what I think?


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> 8675309


Inbox me whole number imma msg this other dude and get his and we can put this to bed.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

chuck estevez said:


> I'm just a clown, WHY do you care what I think?


Because its fckin annoying. And i get down to business so if someone callin me out imma handle it like a man and do what i gotta do to make sure aint noone trying play me cuz I dont play that shit.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Hey someone stole handle inbox me ur number we gonna hit this dude up when he send me his line and put this to bed. Than he can come back on here and admit he was wrong and we can keep things going back to what the purpose of this thread was for how bout that


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Hey someone stole handle inbox me ur number we gonna hit this dude up when he send me his line and *put this to bed*. Than he can come back on here and admit he was wrong and we can keep things going back to what the purpose of this thread was for how bout that




http://data:image/jpeg;base64,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


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

This dude giving me a dumb ass number to a fckin song from the 79s u must b some old degenerate douche bag with too much time on ur hands.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Well i think everyone obviously knowswho real and who the fckin fraud is cuz chuckie the clown cant even man up and send me his number cuz he a pussy.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

chuck sits on his computer all day trying to occupy his lonely ass time arguing w dudes instead of being productive so he resorts to pathetic display of internet trolling in an attempt to seem like he is important when he is merely a middle aged over weight single gay male trying to find a fag online to talk to because hes a hermit and obviously has no life other than talkin to people on an internet forum which he provides absolutely 0 contribution to other than wasting peoples time and tryin to suck ppl into arguing down to his level which is beneath\. U r truly in a league of your own and the level of patheticness is in penetrable you are a fckin joke. U probably dont even grow anything and live vicariously thru the real mother fckers on here who actually do this for a living while u wish u had the ability to do anyting other than sitting at home on ur computer making a complete fckin clown out of urself for the world to see.


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

chuck estevez, post: 11770421, member: 509695"]thought you were done with this thread for the 10th time? Why do you keep coming back? why does your other account ONLY post in this thread? 

Funny You mention that, as I just got down painstakingly photographing all my plants, sending the pics from phone to email, uploading them to the site and making an entire thread about it - but you probably think im doing it just to fool you huh? Paranoid freak. I'm assuming I would be the "guys other account"

https://www.rollitup.org/t/first-in-ground-outdoor-grow.878121/#post-11770485 here it is


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Kinda funny cuz my grow rooms look nothing like that either lmao.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

I dont grow outside ever lol. He probably gonna try say u stole those pictures so be warned he results to bull shit and insults because he cant back up anything he says. You wont see him posting any pictures of his grow i can promise you that much.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> chuck estevez, post: 11770421, member: 509695"]thought you were done with this thread for the 10th time? Why do you keep coming back? why does your other account ONLY post in this thread?
> 
> Funny You mention that, as I just got down painstakingly photographing all my plants, sending the pics from phone to email, uploading them to the site and making an entire thread about it - but you probably think im doing it just to fool you huh? Paranoid freak. I'm assuming I would be the "guys other account"
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/first-in-ground-outdoor-grow.878121/#post-11770485 here it is


*LMFAO*


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Yeah Ill join it too i dont got skype but I will call someone and gladly prove this dude wrong with a smile on my face laughing at your self centered hysteria that ony you are capable of thinking you are that important when I can promise that aint the case at all.
> 
> Where u from anyways my dude? Im out in Rhode Island you?


I live in Maine. Should be pretty easy to tell we aren't the same person.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I dont grow outside ever lol. He probably gonna try say u stole those pictures so be warned he results to bull shit and insults because he cant back up anything he says. You wont see him posting any pictures of his grow i can promise you that much.


says PIK_BOOSTER, that's HIGHlarious!!!


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> I live in Maine. Should be pretty easy to tell we aren't the same person.


I guarantee you have the same stupid mullet


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Aw look at chuck year book photo. I bet u pulled all the guys w that hair cut. I knew u were a closet homosexual. Doesnt it feel better to be honest buddy? I applaud u for ur bravery and courage, i knew you had it in you.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> I live in Maine. Should be pretty easy to tell we aren't the same person.


Oh u aint too far from me. Im down in RI. Maine startin to pop off big time with growing. They got some good shit up there couple of my boys live in portland actually. Nice place


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Oh u aint too far from me. Im down in RI. Maine startin to pop off big time with growing. They got some good shit up there couple of my boys live in portland actually. Nice place


We already know you're in boston pik-booster, home of the mullet, we don't do that stupid shit in cali.


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Oh u aint too far from me. Im down in RI. Maine startin to pop off big time with growing. They got some good shit up there couple of my boys live in portland actually. Nice place


Maine has always been a huge smoking and growing state now that it's legalized for medical with recreational in the works, it's really becoming an industry.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

When did u plant those outside. Only prolem up there is season is mad short outside. You really only got like september and it gets fckin cold and frost comes quick after that. You need get shit planted in ground by may 1st. My boys who grow outside usually start em indoors for a few weeks and transplant around than. Usually choppin down in october.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

I think they said november up there before election they were gonna pass it for recreational. I know couple ppl up there doing there thing. Def a good place to be at for sure. Really laid back nice place to live too


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

I got 12-12 down where im at. Wish it was more but its straight. Only loop hole is drying the shit u gotta move it somewhere else cuz the minute it comes down anything over 2.5 ounces ur fucked and lose all ur shit and they take ur property so kinda sucks just gotta be careful and dry somewhere else.

Only thing if u want to do more and get caregiver license but than u gotta get finger printed they take urphoto u got sign up all ur patients its a real pain in the ass. Easier just to be a patient u get 12 in veg and 12 in bloom. No light restrictions or anything so literally u could do 1 plant per light and go hard.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

I think up where u at only gonna be like6 plants though kinda shitty but straight for urself u know


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Im thinking about gettin the 12 bucket cureent culture 13 gallon bucket setup. Add a few more lights and run like 2 plant per light on a 8-10 week veg and run it like that. Just running all the extra equipment get kinda pricey including electricity and all a/c and chiller is expensive. Im thinking about going that route though but still undecided myself. Kinda big investment upfront but def worth it on the back end u know


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 22, 2015)

lol


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 22, 2015)

Primo of the day fruity chronic juice week 4 these donkey dicks are filling in nice super chunks!!


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 23, 2015)

Back to the discussion.

Forget flushing lets get back to defoliation.

Ill touch up on a little subject called POLYPLOIDY. If you dont know what this is or what causes this genetic mutation I will fill you in.

Polyploidy is a genetic mutation that causes plants to produce excessive yield. It occurs from constant defoliation which triggers this hormonal response internally thru a mutation of the genes. The amount and cause differs between various strains but provides a simple explanation for why defoliation can lead to a dramatic increase in yields. 

Theres also a product on the market which I do not recommend using but is used in the industry but is toxic and must be handled with care. I forget what its called but it begins with a "C" ill have to go thru my notes and look it up.

Other products and PGR such as paclubutrazol also produce increase in yields by regulating the giberellins and auxins internally by altering the genetic of the plant causing them to grow tight internodal spacing, stout bushy plants and increased flower set and bud development. I dont recommend using the shit but I know it does work. It also used for control of fungus but is banned many places.

Back to defoliation. Some strains are more responsive to others regarding defoliation. When defoliation is done at critical times and consistent selective leaf removal is applied, an increase in yield can be drastic. Some growers claim upwards of 20-25% yied increase with proper defoliation.

I have a friend who removes the entire bottom 1/3 of his plants 10 days before flowering. Followed by another clean up after the stretch is completed and than removes all of his fan leaves completely except for leaf sets inside the colas at the 6th week around day 42. The entire plant is stripped down to just flowers and bud sites.

He insists this is his key to getting 2.5-3.0 lbs per light on the kush variety he grows and says many OG, Chem and Sour strains will all respond the same when defoliates exactly like this.

I am actually doing 1 plant in my room right now using this exact method and I will be posting photos and the information when Im done. Im not gonna lie I would do it to all of them if I knew that the sour im running right now would def respond and increase my yield to that extent but I am not sold on this as of now.

In a few weeks we will have to wait and see the results. As of right now the plant is lollipopped 1/3 and was heavily defoliated at day 21. I will say that the plant is the shortest of the other 8 that I am running and does seem to be a little behind growth wise, but does seem to have alot tighter spacing and overall more flower sites. In about 10-12 days I will be stripping all of the remaining fan leaves and undeveloped stems and continue this until harvest. 

I will def be puttin up the information and alot of photos when that day comes.

There was a similar article written in BIGBUDS MAGAZINE a few months ago, I believe it was from a medical facility in Michigan who runs an OG Strain that employs the same exact principles where plants are stripped entirely down on day 42. They claim this is a phenomena tha results in excessive yields and have the information and pictures to prove it.

As stated earlier I cannot say for myself this shit is true or works on all strains but im trying it out on a very small scale right now and taking tons of notes and photos monitoring the growth and plant response in a very detailed journal and will be looking fwd to puttin up the results soon as I am done.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 23, 2015)

looks like The OP has had some issues https://www.rollitup.org/t/landlady-visit-t-minus-2-hours-forgot-the-notice-fuck.876227/


Typical of ALL defoil people, just can't seem to EVER finish a complete journal, LMFAO


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 24, 2015)

We got sidetracked by an ignorant troll being paranoid and having delusions of grandeur accusing two of us of being the same person, some shadowy figure from his past he argued with and thinks is stalking him through making new accounts. It was a pretty bad experience as a new member, being baselessly accused of something; irritated and arguing about irrelevant nonsense when all I did was ask a simple on topic question -what were the conclusions if any reached by the experiment. I quickly ignored the troll, but it would be good if you could ban him. Also growing in Maine has a short season more due to late spring rather than early winter. I had plants out last year until the start of december. Cold novembers could be too much and I let them go a bit late to fatten up tiny buds but if I get lucky I'll at least have them out until nov 14 or so. I made a whole thread about my outdoor grow this year, https://www.rollitup.org/t/first-in-ground-outdoor-grow.878121/#post-11770551 fell free to chime in. I just went out yesterday and topped them all, and tied them down further LST ish style. Hoping if I top and also bend them away from the sun I'll get a bushier overall better yielding plant. Still not quite sold on it outdoors I think letting the plant do it's thing is probably ideal. But I'm leaving my two 6 footers mostly upright because they are too big to train at this point. I did tie down some colas and will keep tying down tops probably that get over 6'. I've been putting them in the ground as they reach ~3feet in height, some went in almost a month ago and the last 3 stragglers just went in maybe a week or so ago. I didn't have the option to start early/inside I was given seedlings and can't grow at home. I should have plenty of time though, a 3 footer now will probably be a 6 footer in a month, which would put me mid/late August they will start flowering about then, and have a week or two in august all of september and a week or three in november to flower.


----------



## chuck estevez (Jul 24, 2015)

Not that ANYONE cares, but, here is where you got caught, LMFAO
https://www.rollitup.org/t/is-jungle-juice-good-for-my-plant.877802/page-2


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 24, 2015)

someonestolemyhandle said:


> We got sidetracked by an ignorant troll being paranoid and having delusions of grandeur accusing two of us of being the same person, some shadowy figure from his past he argued with and thinks is stalking him through making new accounts. It was a pretty bad experience as a new member, being baselessly accused of something; irritated and arguing about irrelevant nonsense when all I did was ask a simple on topic question -what were the conclusions if any reached by the experiment. I quickly ignored the troll, but it would be good if you could ban him. Also growing in Maine has a short season more due to late spring rather than early winter. I had plants out last year until the start of december. Cold novembers could be too much and I let them go a bit late to fatten up tiny buds but if I get lucky I'll at least have them out until nov 14 or so. I made a whole thread about my outdoor grow this year, https://www.rollitup.org/t/first-in-ground-outdoor-grow.878121/#post-11770551 fell free to chime in. I just went out yesterday and topped them all, and tied them down further LST ish style. Hoping if I top and also bend them away from the sun I'll get a bushier overall better yielding plant. Still not quite sold on it outdoors I think letting the plant do it's thing is probably ideal. But I'm leaving my two 6 footers mostly upright because they are too big to train at this point. I did tie down some colas and will keep tying down tops probably that get over 6'. I've been putting them in the ground as they reach ~3feet in height, some went in almost a month ago and the last 3 stragglers just went in maybe a week or so ago. I didn't have the option to start early/inside I was given seedlings and can't grow at home. I should have plenty of time though, a 3 footer now will probably be a 6 footer in a month, which would put me mid/late August they will start flowering about then, and have a week or two in august all of september and a week or three in november to flower.


November is pushing it. Lately even down where I am the first frost past few years has happened like early mid October. Snow has hit past 3 years on Halloween as you know.

Just be really careful one it starts getting under like 45-50 degrees at night. Thats when the molds usually start hitting causing bud rot and all sorts of other issues. So just prepare to be ready to chop early October late September depending on strain. Still has plenty of time for a good bloom period. They should start flowering in the next week or so if they didnt already?? 

If their close by and easy to get too and maintain, you can also start flowering them now yourself. You can use light dep technique, go out at night and cover them up and than go out in the morning and uncover them a little later. This way you shorten that light cycle yourself until it naturally starts shortening the days. Once it starts getting dark again around 630-7 you wont have to do it anymore (maybe like 3-4 weeks tops).

Doing light dep is also better for your plants and leads to bigger yields and more potent buds too!! The UVB Light is highest in July and August. Tapers way down in Sept and minimal in October in comparison. Its also good to light dep because its drier these months and you have less chance running them late into september reducing risks of mold and rot. So it would be good idea if you have access and time to do it. And you get better yields too because the light strength will give you better denser flowers and more potency as well. And you can get em down before the usual police patrol during harvest time and beat the chance of getting them noticed or from potential rippers in search of the garden. So maybe try this stuff out and good growing!


----------



## someonestolemyhandle (Jul 24, 2015)

We didn't get snow until about mid December last year, and a year or two before that I was landscaping up until almost Christmas. I'm certain all of september and october will be fine. Honestly anything above 35 degrees I'm comfortable with. I don't plan on trying to cover the plants although I will read into it.... I think the plants have been outside for 2 months and have been vegging they probably know when to start flowering based on temperatures and light tapering off. I only have $65 bucks+ labor into them so if either of the 6 footers is female I'll easily have a good return on my investment. All the 3 footers are just gravy. I topped everything and tied them down but they aren't even really showing sex yet but should anytime. I'd imagine they will start flowering within a week or 3. End of august at the latest. That still gives them two solid months to bud and with winter approaching they will know they need to hurry it up! I have heard everything is fruiting early this year so it could be an early winter, I'll have to do some checking on temps and dates but I plan on letting the plants do their thing. general temp data for my zip code;

Oct34-58
Nov26-45
Dec13-34So if it's a warm good year with late winter I could go up till the end of November maybe! I can always plastic them at night or something, or harvest the larger colas and tops earlier as most people do anyway.


----------



## rastajbd (Jul 25, 2015)

good thread, found it useful


----------



## budman111 (Jul 26, 2015)

rastajbd said:


> good thread, found it useful


For what?


----------



## rastajbd (Jul 26, 2015)

budman111 said:


> For what?


I guess I meant more so in the beginning, with side by side comparison.


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 28, 2015)

Heres some defoliation at its finest. If people think defoliation doesnt work and reduces yield than I am sorry to say but your out of your minds. These ladies are just into week 5 (Day 3 and they ade already the size of soda bottle. They still have about 3.5 weeks left until harvest and they are just getting into their bulking phase. So what I'm thinking is by the time they are ready to chop they will be as big as 2 litre soda bottles. Some may even be as large as footballs, serious chunkers in here. These colas are swinging in the breeze. Fruity Chronic Juice YUMMY!!!


----------



## Cannabil (Jul 28, 2015)

Lollipopped about half of these girls all the way up nothing but chunks!!


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 1, 2015)

over a week later and I'm still in your head,LMFAO


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 2, 2015)

RM3 said:


> That I do


LOL, knows you and knows of you are 2 totally different things!


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 2, 2015)

Couple updates day 2 week 6 (Day 37)
Frosty as a martha fawker


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 2, 2015)

check out mine


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Back to the discussion.
> 
> Forget flushing lets get back to defoliation.
> 
> ...


Yes lets forget flushing! Everyone should forget "flushing"!

Polyploidy from defoliation??? WRONG , FALSE, BULL SHIT!
Polyploidy results by inhibiting chromosome segregation at cell division during meiosis. That means that half the resulting cells will have NO chromosomes and the other half have double the chromosomes! You can defoliate till you die and it *WILL NOT *cause Polyploidy! It has to be done on a chemical level!

The chemical that causes Polyploidy in plants from being treated by it is Colchicine. IF, you are dumb enough to attempt to use it...Be advised that your plants are now TOXIC to use in ANY way.....You must breed that out and the offspring will not contain the Colchicine......You should also note that the offspring from a treated (polyploid) plant and a "normal" plant will now be a "tetraploid", A Tetraploid plant now crossed with a normal plant again will result in a plant (triploid) that is unable to produce seeds (this is where you get seedless melons and grapes) it will be sterile! So the resulting plant from the cross is now termed a "triploidy" plant.

Your spreading BS again!

This what a polyploid Daisy looks like vs. normal

Here is a Cannabis polyploid flowering.

HACK

Doc

thanks to reddit for the Daisy pic and [email protected] for the MM poly pic.....


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> ARE YOU SERIOUS???
> 
> Go get the new MARIJUANA GROW BIBLE. Polyploidy occurs from a gene mutation which can and does get cause by defoliation! You want me to print you copies of it so you can see for yourself? So you knowmore than Ed Rosenthal and Jorge Cervantes now?? Wow man you are impressive. You have so much bs mis information you spew its ridiculous. You even have yourself convinced of your own ba. Come on man you just love to argue and you don't even know what you are talking about. Give me 10-15 minutes Ill go and put up the entire section in the new version and show you it than you can call the writers and experts who wrote the book and argue with them And see how that works out for you. I think they know more than you do my friend. You are out of your mind man you really are.


It's NOT TRUE polyploidy !!!! 
Why do you take nonscientific conclusions as fact?

Compiled and posted by *Robert Connel Clark *
Polyploidy

Polyploidy is the condition of multiple sets of chromosomes within one cell. Cannabis has 20 chromosomes in the vegetative diploid (2n) condition. Triploid (3n) and tetraploid (4n) individuals have three or four sets of chromosomes and are termed polyploids. It is believed that the haploid condition of 10 chromosomes was likely derived by reduction from a higher (polyploid) ancestral number (Lewis, W. H. 1980). Polyploidy has not been shown to occur naturally in Cannabis; however, it may be induced artificially with colchicine treatments. Colchicine is a poisonous compound extracted from the roots of certain Colchicum species; it inhibits chromosome segregation to daughter cells and cell wall formation, resulting in larger than average daughter cells with multiple chromosome sets. The studies of H. E. Warmke et al. (1942-1944) seem to indicate that colchicine raised drug levels in Cannabis. It is unfortunate that Warmke was unaware of the actual psychoactive ingredients of Cannabis and was therefore unable to extract THC. His crude acetone extract and archaic techniques of bioassay using killifish and small freshwater crustaceans are far from conclusive. He was, however, able to produce both triploid and tetraploid strains of Cannabis with up to twice the potency of dip bid strains (in their ability to kill small aquatic organisms). The aim of his research was to "produce a strain of hemp with materially reduced marijuana content" and his results indicated that polyploidy raised the potency of Cannabis without any apparent increase in fiber quality or yield.

Warmke's work with polyploids shed light on the nature of sexual determination in Cannabis. He also illustrated that potency is genetically determined by creating a lower potency strain of hemp through selective breeding with low potency parents.

More recent research by A. I. Zhatov (1979) with fiber Cannabis showed that some economically valuable traits such as fiber quantity may be improved through polyploidy. Polyploids require more water and are usually more sensitive to changes in environment. Vegetative growth cycles are extended by up to 30-40% in polyploids. An extended vegetative period could delay the flowering of polyploid drug strains and interfere with the formation of floral clusters. It would be difficult to determine if cannabinoid levels had been raised by polyploidy if polyploid plants were not able to mature fully in the favorable part of the season when cannabinoid production is promoted by plentiful light and warm temperatures. Greenhouses and artificial lighting can be used to extend the season and test polyploid strains.

The height of tetraploid (4n) Cannabis in these experiments often exceeded the height of the original diploid plants by 25-30%. Tetraploids were intensely colored, with dark green leaves and stems and a well developed gross phenotype. Increased height and vigorous growth, as a rule, vanish in subsequent generations. Tetraploid plants often revert back to the diploid condition, making it difficult to support tetraploid populations. Frequent tests are performed to determine if ploidy is changing.

Triploid (3n) strains were formed with great difficulty by crossing artificially created tetraploids (4n) with dip bids (2n). Triploids proved to be inferior to both diploids and tetraploids in many cases.

De Pasquale et al. (1979) conducted experiments with Cannabis which was treated with 0.25% and 0.50% solutions of colchicine at the primary meristem seven days after generation. Treated plants were slightly taller and possessed slightly larger leaves than the controls, Anomalies in leaf growth occurred in 20% and 39%, respectively, of the surviving treated plants. In the first group (0.25%) cannabinoid levels were highest in the plants without anomalies, and in the second group (0.50%) cannabinoid levels were highest in plants with anomalies, Overall, treated plants showed a 166-250% increase in THC with respect to controls and a decrease of CBD (30-33%) and CBN (39-65%). CBD (cannabidiol) and CBN (cannabinol) are cannabinoids involved in the biosynthesis and degradation of THC. THC levels in the control plants were very low (less than 1%). Possibly colchicine or the resulting polyploidy interferes with cannabinoid biogenesis to favor THC. In treated plants with deformed leaf lamina, 90% of the cells are tetraploid (4n 40) and 10% diploid (2n 20). In treated plants without deformed lamina a few cells are tetraploid and the remainder are triploid or diploid.

The transformation of diploid plants to the tetraploid level inevitably results in the formation of a few plants with an unbalanced set of chromosomes (2n + 1, 2n - 1, etc.). These plants are called aneuploids. Aneuploids are inferior to polyploids in every economic respect. Aneuploid Cannabis is characterized by extremely small seeds. The weight of 1,000 seeds ranges from 7 to 9 grams (1/4 to 1/3 ounce). Under natural conditions diploid plants do not have such small seeds and average 14-19 grams (1/2-2/3 ounce) per 1,000 (Zhatov 1979).

Once again, little emphasis has been placed on the relationship between flower or resin production and polyploidy. Further research to determine the effect of polyploidy on these and other economically valuable traits of Cannabis is needed.

Colchicine is sold by laboratory supply houses, and breeders have used it to induce polyploidy in Cannabis. However, colchicine is poisonous, so special care is exercised by the breeder in any use of it. Many clandestine cultivators have started polyploid strains with colchicine. Except for changes in leaf shape and phyllotaxy, no out standing characteristics have developed in these strains and potency seems unaffected. However, none of the strains have been examined to determine if they are actually polyploid or if they were merely treated with colchicine to no effect. Seed treatment is the most effective and safest way to apply colchicine. * In this way, the entire plant growing from a colchicine-treated seed could be polyploid and if any colchicine exists at the end of the growing season the amount would be infinitesimal. Colchicine is nearly always lethal to Cannabis seeds, and in the treatment there is a very fine line between polyploidy and death. In other words, if 100 viable seeds are treated with colchicine and 40 of them germinate it is unlikely that the treatment induced polyploidy in any of the survivors. On the other hand, if 1,000 viable treated seeds give rise to 3 seedlings, the chances are better that they are polyploid since the treatment killed all of the seeds but those three. It is still necessary to determine if the offspring are actually polyploid by microscopic examination.

The work of Menzel (1964) presents us with a crude map of the chromosomes of Cannabis, Chromosomes 2-6 and 9 are distinguished by the length of each arm. Chromosome 1 is distinguished by a large knob on one end and a dark chromomere 1 micron from the knob. Chromosome 7 is extremely short and dense, and chromosome 8 is assumed to be the sex chromosome. In the future, chromosome *The word "safest" is used here as a relative term. Coichicine has received recent media attention as a dangerous poison and while these accounts are probably a bit too lurid, the real dangers of exposure to coichicine have not been fully researched. The possibility of bodily harm exists and this is multiplied when breeders inexperienced in handling toxins use colchicine. Seed treatment might be safer than spraying a grown plant but the safest method of all is to not use colchicine. mapping will enable us to picture the location of the genes influencing the phenotype of Cannabis. This will enable geneticists to determine and manipulate the important characteristics contained in the gene pool. For each trait the number of genes in control will be known, which chromosomes carry them, and where they are located along those chromosomes.

YOUR A HACK!

Doc


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

I build my own soils numb nuts

I research the net for actual papers on the subjects at hand,,,,I study actual textbooks on subjects...Hell Mr "Ed and Jorge say it so it must be true." 
I played with Polyploid plants and making them in the late 70's.....YOU CAN NOT MAKE ACTUAL POLYPLOIDISM BY DEFOLIATION!!!!

*HACK*


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 5, 2015)

Here straight from the new growers handbook.

Lemme guess these professional growers are lying too right ?? Right!??? Lemme see your answer about this im sure it will be EPIC!!


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 5, 2015)

wow, so pulling leaves causes a genetic mutation, LOL, New one on me, BUT hey, if it's in a cannabis book, must be true, cause they also say to flush


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

Not only that above, but to actually be sure it's Poly,,,,It should be tested for it...


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 5, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> Not only that above, but to actually be sure it's Poly,,,,It should be tested for it...


if you were a plant and trying to grow and someone keeps SEVERELY pulling off your leaves, you might change your chromosomes too.


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 5, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> Not only that above, but to actually be sure it's Poly,,,,It should be tested for it...


Dude, its a known fact! Its been written about in many many horticulture books and proven to be caused from excessive defoliation. Point is defoliation works and can cause crazy yield increases especially when polyploidy comes into play. How much and when isnt known exactly but it is a matter of fact that it is real and what causes it.

Ive been defoliating plants for a long time. I will never ever not defoliate. The purposes it serves and increases in yields are real and it is written about in all cannabis grow books.

So is flushing. Both these subjects are argued and conversed extensively but the fact is that they work, they are practiced and implemented in almost every growers gardens. Its because they work. Simple as fact.


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 5, 2015)

I got 2 plants right now stripped down to nothing but flowers on day 38. And guess what they are my biggest colas and will be my largest yielders of the bunch. I will have pictures and final weigh ins. All same strain same plants same room same food same everything. I will show and prove it works. Whether you wanna listen is up to you. Dont matter to me, but some people will appreciate it! Good day sir.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 5, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Dude, its a known fact! Its been written about in many many horticulture books and proven to be caused from excessive defoliation. Point is defoliation works and can cause crazy yield increases especially when polyploidy comes into play. How much and when isnt known exactly but it is a matter of fact that it is real and what causes it.
> 
> Ive been defoliating plants for a long time. I will never ever not defoliate. The purposes it serves and increases in yields are real and it is written about in all cannabis grow books.
> 
> So is flushing. Both these subjects are argued and conversed extensively but the fact is that they work, they are practiced and implemented in almost every growers gardens. Its because they work. Simple as fact.



have you noticed a difference in the past in defoling sativas vs indicas?


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 5, 2015)

rkymtnman said:


> have you noticed a difference in the past in defoling sativas vs indicas?


I dont run straight sativas. From what I do know they dont respond same way. You would have ask someone else regarding that matter i cant answer that myself sorry.


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 5, 2015)

Mel is now a well known author and activist, as well as radio appearances and books he has written numerous articles for cannabis magazines worldwide. He also has a regular section on the website Stuff Stoners Like. Mel now actively campaigns against prohibition and his first book, Cannabis Cultivation has been in print for over ten years, being one of the top five best selling cultivation books ever written., Mel is an outspoken critic of the pharmaceutical industry and Government policies, particularly as two family members suffer from medical conditions that cannabis can alleviate; namely Multiple Sclerosis and Parkinson's syndrome.


----------



## rkymtnman (Aug 5, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I dont run straight sativas. From what I do know they dont respond same way. You would have ask someone else regarding that matter i cant answer that myself sorry.


so you only have grown indicas or indica hybrids? is there a difference in defoling 100% indicas vs hybrids from what you have seen? or are the results about the same? any indica strains that did not like defoling?


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 5, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Of course you dont care who wrote it. Even though the person who wrote it is a world renowned expert and has degrees in horticulture he doesnt know anything because dr who said so?? Thats hysterical truly genius u dummy


Hope it's not this cunt





or this one






They are both evil, you should avoid them


----------



## sunni (Aug 5, 2015)

Chill out


----------



## chuck estevez (Aug 5, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> Show me WHERE it lists him of having degrees in horticulture! What college?
> Ed Rosenthall does not have an "earned" degree in horticulture either.....He only "briefly" attended college and never graduated!
> 
> HACK


Have you seen ANYONE of these guys finish their defoil experiment? EVERY TIME they start out, then just seem to disappear half way thru. HMMMMM????????????????????????????????????????????????????


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 5, 2015)

*Zero Tolerance - by Ed Rosenthal*
Active Ingredients:
Essential oils of Cinnamon, Rosemary, Thyme, and Clove

LOL


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 5, 2015)

Artificial inducement of polyploids through the inhibition of mitosis is routine in plant breeding. High temperatures above 40°C have been used to induce tetraploid and octoploid corn seedlings albeit with low success of 1.8% and 0.8% respectively (Randolph, 1932). Currently, chemical mitotic inhibitory agents such as colchicine or dinitroanilines are used to induce polyploidy in crop plants. A typical example is the production of tetraploid watermelon plants for the production of seedless triploid watermelon (Compton et al., 1996).

In addition, an uncommon mechanism of polyploid formation involves polyspermy where one egg is fertilized by several male nucleuses as commonly observed in orchids (Ramsey and Schemske,

http://plantbreeding.coe.uga.edu/index.php?title=5._Polyploidy


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

I've got people who come into the shop and want to "sell" me overages for the stores and you can smell the oils on the product!

I tell them that it needs to be tested by one of these lab's (pointing to a sign on the wall) and that if evidence of bugs or insecticides of any type are detected = No sale! I'm glad I have people running them for me.....Sometimes I hate the appointments they make for sellers with me.....VERY, VERY little gets bought that way!

The pat answer is " I don't have bugs/My shit don't get bugs or nothing on this!" Yeah right and the actual smell of Cinnamon, Rosemary, Thyme, and Clove don't give it away!


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> Artificial inducement of polyploids through the inhibition of mitosis is routine in plant breeding. High temperatures above 40°C have been used to induce tetraploid and octoploid corn seedlings albeit with low success of 1.8% and 0.8% respectively (Randolph, 1932). Currently, chemical mitotic inhibitory agents such as colchicine or dinitroanilines are used to induce polyploidy in crop plants. A typical example is the production of tetraploid watermelon plants for the production of seedless triploid watermelon (Compton et al., 1996).
> 
> In addition, an uncommon mechanism of polyploid formation involves polyspermy where one egg is fertilized by several male nucleuses as commonly observed in orchids (Ramsey and Schemske,
> 
> http://plantbreeding.coe.uga.edu/index.php?title=5._Polyploidy


EXACTLY......Even when doing chemical seed exposure......The VAST bulk of those seeds are killed! You have to expose LOTS to get even one viable seed! Plant treating is difficult at best as you tend to use too little to effect a real polyploid response. This is further complicated by the Colchicine being toxic to the plant! As you approach the needed exposure concentrations, you approach the plants toxic threshold to the chemical!

Doc

Nice post Skunk!!


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 5, 2015)

Dr. Who said:


> EXACTLY......Even when doing chemical seed exposure......The VAST bulk of those seeds are killed! You have to expose LOTS to get even one viable seed! Plant treating is difficult at best as you tend to use too little to effect a real polyploid response. This is further complicated by the Colchicine being toxic to the plant! As you approach the needed exposure concentrations, you approach the plants toxic threshold to the chemical!
> 
> Doc
> 
> Nice post Skunk!!


Yep, only very few will survive i read lots of papers on this about 20 years ago when the jolly roger wrote his grow manual lol
i think many of the myths around today come from the jolly roger thing 

i remember reading there was better success when seeds were germinated first without any colchicine 
a cotton swab of colchicine was immediately placed on the emerging true leaves as it grew many would still not survive but those that did would express the polyploid trait 
i think this polyploid thing has always been floating around with myths of "super weed" for decades now 


From: [email protected] (The Crimson Mage)
Newsgroups: alt.drugs
Subject: Potgrow-1
Message-ID: <[email protected]>
Date: 21 Aug 93 19:29:57 GMT

How to grow Marijuana courtesy of the Jolly Roger


TO INCREASE THE GOOD STUFF
--------------------------
There are several tricks to increase the number of females, or the THC
content of plants:

You can make the plants mature in 36 days if you are in a hurry, by cutting
back on the light to about 14 hours, but the plants will not be as big.
You should gradually shorten the light cycle until you reach fourteen
hours.

You can stop any watering as the plants begin to bake the resin rise to
the flowers. This will increse the resin a bit.

You can use a sunlamp on the plants as they begin to develop flower stalks.

You can snip off the flower, right at the spot where it joins the plant,
and a new flower will form in a couple of weeks.

This can be repeated two or three times to get several times more flowers
than usual.

If the plants are sprayed with Ethrel early in their growing stage, they
will produce almost all female plants. This usually speeds up the flowering
also, it may happen in as little as two weeks.

You can employ a growth changer called colchicine. This is a bit hard to
get and expensive. (Should be ordered through a lab of some sort and
costs about $35 a gram.)

To use the colchicine, you should prepare your presoaking solution of
distilled water with about 0.10 per cent colchicine. This will cause
many of the seeds to die and not germinate, but the ones that do come
up will be polyploid plants. This is the accepted difference between
such strains as "gold" and normal grass, and yours will DEFINITELY
be superweed.

The problem here is that colchicine is a posion in larger quanities and
may be poisonous in the first generation of plants. Bill Frake, author
of CONNOISSEUR'S HANDBOOK OF MARIJUANA runs a very complete colchicine
treatment down and warns against smoking the first generation plants
(all succeeding generations will also be polyploid) bacause of this
poisonous quality.

However, the Medical Index shows colchicine being given in very small
quantities to people for treatment if various ailments. Although these
quantities are small, they would appear to be larger than any you could
recive form smoaking a seed-treated plant.

It would be a good idea to buy a copy of CONNOISSEUR'S, if you are planning
to attempt this, and read Mr. Drake's complete instructions.

Another still-experimental process to increase the resin it to pinch off
the leaf tips as soon as they appear from the time the plant is in the
seedling stage on through its entire life-span. This produces a distorted,
wrecked-looking plant which would be very difficuly to recognize as
marijuana. Of course, there is less substance to this plant, but such
wrecked creatures have been known to produve so much resin that it
crystallizes a strong hash all over the surface of the plant - might
be wise to try it on a plant or two and see what happens.


PLANT PROBLEM CHART
-------------------
Always check the overall enviromental conditions prior to passing
judgment - soil aroung 7 pH or slightly less - plenty of water, light,
fresh air, loose soil, no water standing in pools.

SYMPTOM PROBABLY PROBLEM/CURE
~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Larger leaves turning yellow - Nitrogen dificiency - add
smaller leaves still green. nitrate of soda or
organic fertilizer.

Older leaves will curl at edges, Phosphorsus dificiency -
turn dark, possibaly with a purple add commercial phosphate.
cast.

Mature leaves develop a yellowish Magnesium dificiency -
cast to least veinal areas. add commercial fertilizer
with a magnesium content.

Mature leaves turn yellow and then Potassium dificiency -
become spotted with edge areas add muriate of potash.
turning dark grey.

Cracked stems, no healthy support Boron dificiency - add
tissue. any plant food containing
boron.

Small wrinkled leaves with Zinc dificiency - add
yelloish vein systems. commercial plant food
containing zinc.

Young leaves become deformed, Molybedum dificiency -
possibaly yellowing. use any plant food with a
bit of molydbenum in it.


BAD WEED/GOOD WEED
------------------
Can you turn bad weed into good weed? Surprisingly enough, the answer
to this oft-asked inquiry is, yes!

Like most other things in life, the amount of good you are going
to do relates directly to how much effort you are going to put into it.
There are no instant, supermarket products which you can spray on Kansas
catnip and have wonderweed, but there are a number of simplified,
inexpensive processes (Gee, Mr. Wizard!) thich will enhance mediocre
grass somewhat, ant there are a couple of fairly involved processes
which will do up even almost-parsley weed into something worth writing
home about.


EASES
-----
1. Place the dope in a container which allows air to enter in a restricted
fashion (such as a can with nail holes punched in its lid) and add a
bunch of dry ice, and the place the whold shebang in the freezer for a
few days. This process will add a certain amount of potency to the product,
however, this only works with dry ice, if you use normal, everyday
freezer ice, you will end up with a soggy mess...

2. Take a quantity of grass and dampen it, place in a baggie or another
socially acceptable container, and store it in a dark, dampish place
for a couple of weeks (burying it also seems to work). The grass will
develop a mold which tastes a bit harsh, a and burns a tiny bit funny,
but does increase the potency.

3. Expose the grass to the high intensity light of a sunlamp for a full
day or so. Personally, I don't feel that this is worth the effort, but
if you just spent $400 of your friend's money for this brick of
super-Colombian, right-from-the-President's-personal-stash,
and it turns out to be Missouri weed, and you're packing your bags to
leave town before the people arrive for their shares, well, you might
at least try it. Can't hurt.

4. Take the undisirable portions of our stash (stems, seeds, weak weed,
worms, etc.) and place them in a covered pot, with enough rubbing
alchol to cover everything.

Now CAREFULLY boil the mixture on an ELECTRIC stove or lab burner. DO
NOT USE GAS - the alchol is too flammable. After 45 minutes of heat,
remove the pot and strain the solids out, SAVING THE ALCOHOL.
Now, repeat the process with the same residuals, but fresh alchol.
When the second boil is over, remove the solids again, combine the two
quantities of alcohol and reboil until you have a syrupy mixture.
Now, this syrupy mixture will contain much of the THC formerly hidden
in the stems and such. One simply takes this syrup the throughly
combines it with the grass that one wishes to improve upon.

https://www.erowid.org/plants/cannabis/cannabis_cultivation14.shtml


----------



## Budzbuddha (Aug 5, 2015)

So my Chernobyl Ultra from Russia is toxic ?!
It's full of that PolyHookaMookaloid and TerpeepeeSluperline shit you guys are debating about. 
This fucker still glows with lights out .


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 5, 2015)

Ill be posting start to finish picturs and final weight of the plants i heavily defoliated and the ones i didnt. As mentioned before alot of people dont know how and when to defoliate properly and screw their shit up. I been doing this for a long time. When I first started I messed shit up and lost yield but still got good quality. But I was losing 25% yields early on. Now that I have my method down properly for what I run. I increased yield by at least 15-20% if not more

Im hoping that these 2 lights im running right now I can get 4.5 lbs off of. Thats gonna be roughl 6 ounces per plant @6 per 1000w light in 7 gallon containers. As things look right now Im gonna b right in or a little shy possibly just getting the 4. This is also a sour strains so they usually dont yield as high. Anything over 1.5 per light 1000w with sours, og's etc is good. Im going for 2+ per light if i get anything less I'll be upset.


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

LOL budz!


----------



## Dr. Who (Aug 5, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> Yep, only very few will survive i read lots of papers on this about 20 years ago when the jolly roger wrote his grow manual lol
> i think many of the myths around today come from the jolly roger thing
> 
> i remember reading there was better success when seeds were germinated first without any colchicine
> ...


OMFG! I haven't read that in years! Nice comedy! 
I don't wonder too, if that is the source of many modern day myths!

Another good post!

Doc


----------



## james murphy (Aug 12, 2015)

suspect...


----------



## pseudobotanist (Aug 12, 2015)

Still waiting for the pics....


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 12, 2015)

rkymtnman said:


> so you only have grown indicas or indica hybrids? is there a difference in defoling 100% indicas vs hybrids from what you have seen? or are the results about the same? any indica strains that did not like defoling?


most indica dominant hybrids strains take well to defoliating but sativa dominant hybrids strains get stressed out but it does help to shape the canopy if you give them a few days to come round

there loads of different ways to train your plants and redirect energy to the larger shoots, shape the canopy and make the most of your lights


there a lot of disadvantages to a very dense canopy, the resources (light, nutes, water ect) are used up on small shoots/ bud sites, leaves and there a lot higher chance of getting bugs like spider mite, thrips and in late flower bud root ( low airflow in the lower canopy will increase the humidity), as the canopy is so thick you can't see it till its too late !

even if you don't get any problems, all that extra trimming the small buds takes hours ( for a few grams that would have directed the resources and grown the other buds bigger), also you have to get rid of loads more plant waste and its a pain

a large full canopy where air/light can flow though the canopy just helps the plants in so many ways

I only remove leaves and shoots in veg and some in early flower, to get the canopy level and prevent it from being too thick


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 12, 2015)

Budzbuddha said:


> So my Chernobyl Ultra from Russia is toxic ?!
> It's full of that PolyHookaMookaloid and TerpeepeeSluperline shit you guys are debating about.
> This fucker still glows with lights out .
> 
> View attachment 3473575


looks like a Photoshop mirror edit to make the plant look better lol


----------



## pseudobotanist (Aug 12, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> most indica dominant hybrids strains take well to defoliating but sativa dominant hybrids strains get stressed out but it does help to shape the canopy if you give them a few days to come round
> 
> there loads of different ways to train your plants and redirect energy to the larger shoots, shape the canopy and make the most of your lights
> 
> ...


I'm going to disagree with your dense canopy view. A denser canopy means more surface area for the plant to absorb light and stimulate growth. No matter how thick the canopy is, light will seep thru the cracks and hit the inside of the canopy. 

The reason the shoots/budsites at the bottom of your plants are small is not because they didn't recieve enough light, but rather because cannabis experiences apical dominance meaning all the auxins in your plant get concentrated at the highest point. 

The way you redirect that growth is by bending down the apical site like what's seen when a person LST's.


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 12, 2015)

pseudobotanist said:


> I'm going to disagree with your dense canopy view. A denser canopy means more surface area for the plant to absorb light and stimulate growth. No matter how thick the canopy is, light will seep thru the cracks and hit the inside of the canopy.
> 
> The reason the shoots/budsites at the bottom of your plants are small is not because they didn't recieve enough light, but rather because cannabis experiences apical dominance meaning all the auxins in your plant get concentrated at the highest point.
> 
> The way you redirect that growth is by bending down the apical site like what's seen when a person LST's.


A denser canopy means more surface area for the plant to absorb light only works to a point, buds sites need space to grow so if the canopy is too thick the buds grow smaller

even doing a scrog the buds need couple of inches between each bud site and would you lollipop the low growth on a scrog grow ?

check out LBH's SCrog Tutorial

or maybe the main-Lining Thread

as they both have the same views as me


----------



## pseudobotanist (Aug 12, 2015)

I don't scrog nor lollipop so you're on you're own there but I'll check them out nonetheless. 

Logically I don't see how having more fan leaves equates to smaller buds. If you are refering to small budsites located at the bottom of your plant it's due to a hormonal issue (auxins) and not because light isn't reaching there. 

The only other thing I've seen to affect budsites is the space between internodes. Longer the stretch smaller the buds. Tight internodes equals dense buds


----------



## Budzbuddha (Aug 12, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> looks like a Photoshop mirror edit to make the plant look better lol


It is ... It's a joke.
And NO PLANT WOULD LOOK LIKE THAT ANYWAYS.
( face palm )


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 13, 2015)

pseudobotanist said:


> I don't scrog nor lollipop so you're on you're own there but I'll check them out nonetheless.
> 
> Logically I don't see how having more fan leaves equates to smaller buds. If you are refering to small budsites located at the bottom of your plant it's due to a hormonal issue (auxins) and not because light isn't reaching there.
> 
> The only other thing I've seen to affect budsites is the space between internodes. Longer the stretch smaller the buds. Tight internodes equals dense buds



*The only other thing I've seen to affect budsites is the space between internodes. Longer the stretch smaller the buds. Tight internodes equals dense buds*

total agree with this comment, this is the thing that happens in the first 3 weeks of flower, the shoots stretch and compete with each other for space and light to be the apical dominance shoot on that part of the plant, with careful planning and training you can reduce the stretch, loads by not giving the plants a reason to stretch 

you do this by giving every main shoot space by removing the weaker shoots and trimming some leaves back, so the higher shoots/leaves don't touch and there all start off the same height in flower 12/12 

this way all the internodes stay tight and you get best results


----------



## Diesel0889 (Aug 13, 2015)

Years and years ago before I even heard anything about defoliation I was having pest problems and had to start clipping away.i know some are with it and some are against it but wow that plant came back very fast and growing better than before and I had know idea what I had done and did a little research on it and found it's been a lot of people's practice all along. I'm sure it may be strain dependent etc. but from what I've seen personally and on this forum and others it's hard not to be a believer. Keep up the great work semper fi you def have my interest in this thread.


----------



## Diesel0889 (Aug 13, 2015)

And jacksthc I could not agree more. Smart man.


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 13, 2015)

Nutrients, light, temperature and genetics all factor into internodal spacing. There is no one magic fix to get tight nodes. Its a bunch of different factors that all contribute to how well they will grow for you.


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 13, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Nutrients, light, temperature and genetics all factor into internodal spacing. There is no one magic fix to get tight nodes. Its a bunch of different factors that all contribute to how well they will grow for you.


6 mouths ago I would have said your right Cannabil but as money has got tight so I decided to do a budget grow in veg and flower, 4 plants under 40w t5's (5 x 8w), no nutes in veg, cheap soil (tomorite), cheap seeds (skunk 1)and don't know what the temps/humidity is so the only things I can control is the distance the canopy is from the t5's, how to train them (removing loads of leaves  ) and when to water the plants and the nodes are really tight, I have cut down the 1ltr pots so there fit in the small veg cab (12" (W) 14" (L) 12"(H) my veg cab cost me about 50p a week to run in electric as it uses less than a 7kw a week


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 16, 2015)

pseudobotanist said:


> .If you are refering to small budsites located at the bottom of your plant it's due to a hormonal issue (auxins) and not because light isn't reaching there.


genetics and light play the most important role here

while some plants will produce more yield at the top of the plant, with little lower growth
other plants will produce almost equal size colas on every branch only slightly smaller than the main head
plants that are able to produce colas on every branch will suffer if they receive less light on some branches
branches that receive less light are notably smaller than the others in direct light

putting bottom light on a plant that did not genetically produce large colas on each branch, the extra light would not produce colas
the smaller bottom nuggets would become larger and more dense with the extra light
but colas will not form
cola building and bud formation is down to genetics

peace


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 17, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> genetics and light play the most important role here
> 
> while some plants will produce more yield at the top of the plant, with little lower growth
> other plants will produce almost equal size colas on every branch only slightly smaller than the main head
> ...


what you say is true but genetics and light play the most important role here ?

problem with that is most growers have got a budget, limited space, electric and lots of other problems (heat, noise, ect)

so I have spent years trying to grow my weed as cheap as possible but still keeping the grow room safe, hidden and keeping the running cost low
bearing thing in mind, there a lot of good seeds out there for budget growers but using high powered light in veg is unnecessary and you can use t5's and still get
some great results,

The most important thing IMO is the canopy shape, making sure the canopy is flat well spaced and the canopy fills the room, so your plant make the best of the light they have, getting a large root mass in veg by slightly under watering the plants for a short time a week before flower and a week after as this helps to keep to reduce the stretch

this makes the roots grow fast and slows the top growth down in early flower and then the plants have a large root mass to feed the plants in flower so you pull a good crop

my plain is to pull 14 oz's with less than £120 budget per crop

it works out about £2 to germinate and veg my plants (4 weeks)
and a 600w hps and two fans cost about £54 (8 weeks flower)

basic nutes and soil bio fish mix and bloom cost about £ 25 a crop and replace hps bulb every 3 crops
works out about £120 per crop with upgrading carbon filter ect every 18 mouths


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 17, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> what you say is true but genetics and light play the most important role here ?
> 
> problem with that is most growers have got a budget, limited space, electric and lots of other problems (heat, noise, ect)
> 
> ...


it roughly cost me £7 to £10 per oz to produce
this is not my main concern or interest
for me, its all about space/time/yield/plant count

i am not that concerned with gpw

i personally consider veg time as wasted time unless they are going to be big plants 1lb +
it is quicker to select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone
and yield 3-5 oz or so in 9 weeks total growing time

stretch is not something to avoid imo it is something to learn how to control and reap the benefit from all that extra vigor
the stretch is the fastest growing period of a cannabis plant

i agree about canopy control , getting the colas into direct light helps
experimenting with filling the space with different numbers of plants also helps
more plants will fill the space quicker, more plants will also produce a higher percentage of thicker branches/colas
than fewer plants covering the same space

if yield is the main concern, i find overfilling the space with plant numbers and then cutting away all the weaker growth
is the fastest way to pack a space with only colas

peace


----------



## SPLFreak808 (Aug 17, 2015)

I am done with growing this year! However, im still stuck with 2 super bushy quad top afghani girls 35 days old at 27" from the stem in 10 gallon organic pots. I am willing to defoliate and give it a try if anyone can walk me through it, ill post my progress , pics ect. Just dont criticise my ways, as i veg and flower in my own soil mix and ONLY use tap water throught veg and flower


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 17, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> it roughly cost me £7 to £10 per oz to produce
> this is not my main concern or interest
> for me, its all about space/time/yield/plant count
> 
> ...


sounds like you buy 5" clones and fill the room which is great and you would pull a good yield in 9 weeks
I live in the UK so I take cutting, root, veg and train them till there 5-6" high so its not a lot different to your 5" clones
don't like the ideal of buying clones as someone know how many plants you have and a good ideal when harvest is
also when I have to pay £5 for a 2" healthy rooted clone, it a lot of money when you buy a loads of them

also like to keep my plant count to a minimal,

stretch is just that, if not controlled the long node spacing can make the buds grow long and thin and the canopy becomes unlevel

with too much space between each cola

I like doing a perpetual grows from start to finish


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 17, 2015)

SPLFreak808 said:


> I am done with growing this year! However, im still stuck with 2 super bushy quad top afghani girls 35 days old at 27" from the stem in 10 gallon organic pots. I am willing to defoliate and give it a try if anyone can walk me through it, ill post my progress , pics ect. Just dont criticise my ways, as i veg and flower in my own soil mix and ONLY use tap water throught veg and flower


sounds great I would be willing to talk you through it


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 17, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> sounds like you buy 5" clones


i live in the UK also, i am not sure why you would assume that i "buy clones"

shall i assume that you buy weed and pretend to grow it ?

tut tut, lol


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 18, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> i live in the UK also, i am not sure why you would assume that i "buy clones"
> 
> shall i assume that you buy weed and pretend to grow it ?
> 
> tut tut, lol


sorry skunkd0c that I assume that you buy clones as it didn't sound like you have a veg room with mother plants or taking cutting and vegging them till you start the next crop, so where do you get your clones from ?

this is the comments that made me think you by clones 
*
"i personally consider veg time as wasted time unless they are going to be big plants 1lb +"
"select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone"*


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 18, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> sorry skunkd0c that I assume that you buy clones as it didn't sound like you have a veg room with mother plants or taking cutting and vegging them till you start the next crop, so where do you get your clones from ?
> 
> this is the comments that made me think you by clones
> *"i personally consider veg time as wasted time unless they are going to be big plants 1lb +"
> "select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone"*


Hmm, selecting hydrids would indicate i am selecting from seed and selecting my own preferences from those phenotypes ?

i have never bought clones

here is some clones rooting 













peace


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 18, 2015)

you clones look really good man but hybrids and clones in the same sentence, Hmm don't really make me think of seeds sound like your picking the best clones based on there look (sativa vigor )

selecting phenotypes from a pack of seeds, you need to take cutting in veg and flower them off to find the best phenotype

sound like you picking the best looking seedling out a pack of seeds ( done a few times my self)


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 18, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> hybrids and clones in the same sentence,


I do not know what you mean by this ?



jacksthc said:


> you need to take cutting in veg and flower them off to find the best phenotype


you do not need to take cuttings from seed plants to flower them , you can flower the seed plants themselves


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 18, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> I do not know what you mean by this ?
> *select hybrids that grow with lots of sativa vigor these plants require little to no veg time, they can grow to 3-4 ft tall from 5 inch clone
> *
> 
> ...


yer when selecting phenotypes from a pack of seeds

grow the plant from seed and take 3 cutting in veg and tag them so you know what clone comes off which plant and flower them off

keep notes on each plant

how well the cutting rooted,
how healthy the plant is
how much the plant yielded
the quality of the buds

and then decide which plant is the best from your notes, take cutting off the best phenotypes and flower them off

now you have the best phenotypes out of a pack of seeds


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 18, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> yer when selecting phenotypes from a pack of seeds
> 
> grow the plant from seed and take 3 cutting in veg and tag them so you know what clone comes off which plant and flower them off
> 
> ...


i do something similar, i grow the plant from seed usually until preflower, i will take a single cutting from each plant showing female preflowers
i will remove any plants showing male preflowers

i will continue flowering the seed plants, this is quicker than rooting cuttings and flowering the cuttings as you suggested 

i will keep a cutting from each plant, when the plants are about 5-6 weeks into flower i can tell if some of the plants will be unsuitable
due to lack of vigour or lack of early bud development etc i will discard these cuttings and keep only the cuttings from plants that are vigorous through all stages of growth 
i am not a fan of runt genetics 

sometimes i only veg for 3 weeks from seed, this is too early to detect preflowers so i will take cuttings during early flower
of those plants that are female, usually during week 2-3 of flower 

peace


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 18, 2015)

sorry mate probable the way i worded it

often i have grown plants from seed to flower
I take the cutting in late veg and tag them so I don't lose the phenotype in case its a good plant

some people re veg the best plants but it takes a long time to veg and I think it can affect the plants (could be wrong) reducing the quality of the plant and the yield

taking clones 5-6 weeks into flower so your a fan monster cropping (quick rooting but takes a while for the plants leaves to grow normal but it would give you a really good yield)

I dropped my seeds in a cup of water on the 14 July, they dropped in a few hours and germinated in a few days I was very lucky and now they have been in veg for 27days and I have just switched them over to flower

I topped them once and removed a lot of leaves to control the way they grew so I did not need to lst them, would not have been easy in the veg cab

here the plants on the last day of veg


----------



## Rev.thenatural (Aug 18, 2015)

I can help with this and teach you boys and girls some very important things about defoliation and how to get the most from it. Why should we listen to you rev ? Good question. Ole rev here has done it all. Killed more trees learning them than the d.e.a. and when you murderlize these trees in the true quest of learning, you learn indeed. Now, you have heard all of the solar panel debate and why defoliation should not be done. You have heard those that have also claimed success and I know one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years and he's been on forums for years preaching it. Gets consistent 2 pounds of bud from 4 trees horizontal 400 hid light 48 in above 32 in bushes. However, he has not or anyone I know of shared proper timing and that's what I'll do for the willing and you will never turn back if done right and you'll have complete understanding. I'm not going to write a book on all the how's and why's for the in tolerate reader, I will give it to you straight. Do not pluck your fan leaf, until your fan leaf has produced a bud site. Once you see the budsite extend far enough out to produce its own set of fan leaves, then you pluck the fan leaf. Once the new extended branch has started to produce secondary branches from its pair of fan leaves, pick those. Follow that course and you will not go wrong and increase yields and quality. You will do less defoliation, the more light you use. Less light, more defoliation. Try not for third branch sites as you may get too much and risk bud being overly crowded " believe it lol " by the time you defoliate most of the bush for secondaries at proper timing for your particular light, you will have plenty bush to impress and especially flowering vertical, after being trained and properly defoliated in veg. If you pull leaves before they have made a branch, they will stunt and not grow for weeks and growers who have done this, give unfortunately, this wonderful tool a bad name. Here's just a quick example of a master kush 4ft tall we defoliated and now being flowered. Experienced eyes can see a trees potential in flower , when looking at a veg bush like this. One love, ,.....rev.thenaturalone more thing, keep your veg lights higher than most. All this stacking nodes stuff, works against you, unless doing some kind of sea of green strategy. Got to let them stretch well in veg and defoliate to get your yields. These techniques and understandings, will allow you to flower with a couple 400 hid and get pounds of bud, however you stack nodes too close and not allow for proper stretch in yields, you figure why so many do not make their goals. Seen seven foot trees with 4-5 nodes throw down 2-3 pounds of bud. Go figure..


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 18, 2015)

I do have complete understanding of defoliation, just not great with words and explaining how to do this lol
never seen any grower on any form train there plants the way I do

could you send me some links of the one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 18, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> sorry mate probable the way i worded it
> 
> often i have grown plants from seed to flower
> I take the cutting in late veg and tag them so I don't lose the phenotype in case its a good plant
> ...


i would not take cuttings as late as 6 weeks, i would take them at 2-3 weeks from middle to lower branches that are less into the flowering stage than the more developed upper branches 
these cuttings will only have a few pistils, they root in the same amount of time and do not grow back distorted like a rejuvenated plant (monster)

this is what my seedlings typically look like at around 19 to 21 days
if i flower seedlings when they are this size, i will wait until they grow before i take any cuttings 
they will be big enough to spare cuttings at 2-3 weeks of flower
if i take cuttings too early in veg i wiil have plants to keep alive while i wait for the seed plants to finish flowering
if i take the cuttings at about 2-3 weeks flower it all times out perfectly, so that my next lot of cuttings are ready to flower
without having to be pruned to much to keep them small while they are waiting 






























peace


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 18, 2015)

Rev.thenatural said:


> I can help with this and teach you boys and girls some very important things about defoliation and how to get the most from it. Why should we listen to you rev ? Good question. Ole rev here has done it all. Killed more trees learning them than the d.e.a. and when you murderlize these trees in the true quest of learning, you learn indeed. Now, you have heard all of the solar panel debate and why defoliation should not be done. You have heard those that have also claimed success and I know one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years and he's been on forums for years preaching it. Gets consistent 2 pounds of bud from 4 trees horizontal 400 hid light 48 in above 32 in bushes. However, he has not or anyone I know of shared proper timing and that's what I'll do for the willing and you will never turn back if done right and you'll have complete understanding. I'm not going to write a book on all the how's and why's for the in tolerate reader, I will give it to you straight. Do not pluck your fan leaf, until your fan leaf has produced a bud site. Once you see the budsite extend far enough out to produce its own set of fan leaves, then you pluck the fan leaf. Once the new extended branch has started to produce secondary branches from its pair of fan leaves, pick those. Follow that course and you will not go wrong and increase yields and quality. You will do less defoliation, the more light you use. Less light, more defoliation. Try not for third branch sites as you may get too much and risk bud being overly crowded " believe it lol " by the time you defoliate most of the bush for secondaries at proper timing for your particular light, you will have plenty bush to impress and especially flowering vertical, after being trained and properly defoliated in veg. If you pull leaves before they have made a branch, they will stunt and not grow for weeks and growers who have done this, give unfortunately, this wonderful tool a bad name. Here's just a quick example of a master kush 4ft tall we defoliated and now being flowered. Experienced eyes can see a trees potential in flower , when looking at a veg bush like this. One love, ,.....rev.thenaturalView attachment 3481714one more thing, keep your veg lights higher than most. All this stacking nodes stuff, works against you, unless doing some kind of sea of green strategy. Got to let them stretch well in veg and defoliate to get your yields. These techniques and understandings, will allow you to flower with a couple 400 hid and get pounds of bud, however you stack nodes too close and not allow for proper stretch in yields, you figure why so many do not make their goals. Seen seven foot trees with 4-5 nodes throw down 2-3 pounds of bud. Go figure..


2-3 weeks in flower is a great time to take clones and more often than not its when i get round to taking them, I try to take them in late veg but it don't happens very often lol

you have some very healthy plants there in veg
I like to get my plants really wide in veg so I can keep my plant count down so a long veg is not a problem for me


----------



## skunkd0c (Aug 18, 2015)

this plant had some leaves removed throughout its growth 5 weeks veg under MH
and 8 weeks flower under hps it is a vigorous skunk/sativa dominated phenotype that has a large stretch during flower
yield was 28 oz the plant was 4.5 feet tall 3.5 feet deep and 5 ft wide

the leaf removal is for my piece of mind i would not claim that it improved the yield
also i attempt to keep as many leaves on the plant as i can handle looking at
overall i did not remove as many leaves as i would from some phenos as they are naturally more leafy to start with

i do not like having colas or the middle of a plant in any kind of shade, i will remove lower growth leaves and branches
to allow the light to fall more evenly over the canopy hitting as much surface area of green as possible

        


peace


----------



## Rev.thenatural (Aug 18, 2015)

Go under the top


jacksthc said:


> I do have complete understanding of defoliation, just not great with words and explaining how to do this lol
> never seen any grower on any form train there plants the way I do
> 
> could you send me some links of the one in particular that's defoliated for 25 years


Go under the topic in google and you'll find him in older posts. Always 4 trees under a 400 hid. Can't miss him...rev


----------



## Rev.thenatural (Aug 18, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> this plant had some leaves removed throughout its growth 5 weeks veg under MH
> and 8 weeks flower under hps it is a vigorous skunk/sativa dominated phenotype that has a large stretch during flower
> yield was 28 oz the plant was 4.5 feet tall 3.5 feet deep and 5 ft wide
> 
> ...


Beautiful absolutely. Also see the lowland Oaxaca in your strain. Lol, that helps in yield as the lowland ox, is the largest of all. Stretchy Sativa's will fair much better with this technique. Indica's not as much. We grow pure tropical Sativa's we have collected for years. Defoliation and vertical lighting has made the most wild and crazy beast Sativa's put out huge bud in a much smaller package. Takes time to learn, however well worth the effort. Love the concentration of bud that can amass in smaller packages, when done correctly of course. Outside trees respond unreal to proper plucking. In time outside growers will eventually learn this and increase yields insane. Torpedo size buds. Would recommend to a advanced grower like yourself to use hid for flowering also. Many misunderstandings about the proper ripening of this tree from 40 years of bad understandings that I also once supported as truth and its not. I'm inspired to share something with you and the rest is on you as I never debate info, if I've applied and know it to be true. Cannabis has three stages of ripening. As it goes through these stages and chemical changes, it does not degrade in THC, it starts to produce true cannabinoids that are the ultimate healers and mind stimulators. I know. I was 340 pounds and dying of disease and spiritual corruption. What I was led by was not of this world but the power that made us all. This tree has a history that most know nothing about and that means those who are wonderful growers as yourself and others who have even studied it for decades. For seven years now, I have only shared with those I'm face to face with as it gives opportunity to heed or not, freewill. I share this with you and everyone with humility and those who have learned have lived, when they thought like me, that they would not. Cannabis is a fruit and because we don't understand the truth of evolution, we don't see the wisdom tree for what it still is...as me and you are no longer giants..hmm. When you cut it THC green, you are eating green bananas and most are not even truly rich in THC when they cut and I'm talking about the experienced. People tell me " I see red trichomes when I cut so its ripe." Nope, your not even fully ripe in THC until the tree itself, starts turning brownish red. The red trichomes that most say they see is the fools gold that shows on the hairs and sucker leaves way before it is even ripe truly in THC. When the tree itself turns color and all trichomes start showing red, the true production of pure cbd begins and it is the best inflammatory in the world but must be ripened for and nobody gets it. You also have to feed well at this stage as the second stage of ripening not only produces pure cbd, but will also produce 50% more bud mass. Now hold on brother. Once all your trichomes have turned blood red and the whole tree turns a beautiful red also, you have completed second stage ripening of this fruit. Now within a week or so, you will notice the tree will start to produce golden trichomes and within a few weeks the whole pineapple will turn gold and more beautiful than any of you could ever dream. Then you have produced CBN/cbg and oils and medicines made from these chemicals destroy disease instantly or I'd be dead right now. Now, HP's will not properly ripen cannabis. Cannabis has to die now in its cursed evolutionary state in order to heal completely and quickly. Lights with high nanometers of red like HP's, will not properly ripen this fruit through its stages. Cannabis did not evolve under a red/orange winter spectrum. Tropic of cancer and equator and high mountain regions have more than just high uva/uvb in common, the spectrum of the sun in those areas is also high blue nanometers of 420-480. Hid, is the only light that will properly ripen them and give superior quality. After a three year study, we used every bulb on the market. Did you use the expensive ones? Yes, we used them all first. All. In the end what did the plants show? Not some meter or junk equipment that means squat. The trees would ripen correctly under any and all hid bulbs and even the cheapest Phillips, would give more potent and higher quality bud than the HP's of the most expensive brands. I'll name a few: hortilux super HP's blue, solistek, plantmax, solarmax, red diamond, and many others. Honestly, the plantmax HP's outperformed all of them with only downfall being cheaper built. Now, what was the best hid? The best bulb for growing cannabis or any tropical plant that we now use, is the Hamilton Beach 14000k aquarium bulb in the 400 watt. The trees go nuts and in combination with compost tea, the medicine is to strong to smoke, period. How long for the stages I'm asked by those I share with. Depends on genetics, a long haul for most. A hybrid sativa at 80% under a 600-1000 watt light, will take 16 weeks average to even be truly ripe in the first stage and that's one tree getting it all. This information will soon explode god tells me and the tree will be free and so will we. I've read all the papers and most are garbage. My students always say; " you teach the opposite of everyone else and you charge nothing." Indeed the truth is free, we just have to be humble to hear or we miss the boat. Try it and you will know that I have shared truth and then you will share with others. Those who brought that tree thousands of years ago...are awakening. Deep stuff rev, ya I know brother, but it is written " in the last days, all men will know the truth of their creator and the creation and not one man, will have to seek another for that truth." Let it begin and all will be all in one. Rev.thenatural


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 18, 2015)

skunkd0c said:


> this plant had some leaves removed throughout its growth 5 weeks veg under MH
> and 8 weeks flower under hps it is a vigorous skunk/sativa dominated phenotype that has a large stretch during flower
> yield was 28 oz the plant was 4.5 feet tall 3.5 feet deep and 5 ft wide
> 
> ...


you have done a amazing job with the canopy, you controlled the stretch really well and kept the canopy level 

one of the best plants I have grown has been this one, not the most healthy plant but the yield was high 










the plant was just under 3ft across 
and there was other plants under the 600w hps


----------



## Shastafarian (Aug 20, 2015)

ZOOM IN FOR FULL EFFECT Feugo Freebie from DNA 
Hashbar #7from Archive I have a few keepers but this is the newest untested till 2hours ago and it 1hitter greatness with no cure yet.
Fuego getting the Chop Tonight! 1gal FFOF biobizz

Fuego
Last Feugo pic from my single. 
Raspberry Cookies from G.A.S 4wks1st pheno tester small clone and it seems to be a keeper although its the only 1 I got... LOL out of 5reg beans but Im so thankful to have it showing trichomes finally I had to show somebody thats why you see it.


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 21, 2015)

Defoliation at its finest..
Super chunks.. 6 per light 7 gallon containers day 57 Sage n Sour and Ultra Sour.

This is a Sage n Sour.. Proly 7-8 ounce plant!! Nuttin but Chunkers


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 21, 2015)

I took down 1 light which was the Fruity Chronic Juice 3 plants and 3 plants of Ultra Sour its in the dry room now. 70F and 50%RH cut down day 55.

Ill have some final weighs in, in a few days to see how the ladies came out!! Stay tuned.

I'm gonna be taking these other 6 down in the next few days need another week or so before I have the updates and final weigh in on that and compare the heavily defoliated ultra sours vs the ones left untouched.

I think from what I see so far the smaller plants which werent defoliated will produce around 4-5 ounces a piece. Which is the first light I cut down and I am figuring I will be getting a final dry weight of about 1.75 lbs off that 1000w.

The 6 I have left (previous post) which I am figuring should harvest about 2 1/4-2.5 lbs. If they average low end of 6 ounces per plant (which should be easily achieved, that will be 2 1/4 lbs).. But some will be more around the 8 ounce mark. I have 2 that I used as my testers which were heavily defoliated and stripped on day 42 which is pictured in the above post. These have my largest colas which have about 16 top colas on each plant. Even if each cola only weighs a minimum of 14 grams each (I think they are more around an 20 grams per cola, possibly more) than that should give me 2 plants that will produce 8 ounces. So on average 6 ounces x 6 plants = 36 ounces + 4 ounces for the additional larger 2 plants will give me right around 2.5 lbs , on the main 1000w light. 

I'll put up some pics and updates over the next few days and see how they compare. Oooh yeah.. Premium Meds super pumped.


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> I took down 1 light which was the Fruity Chronic Juice 3 plants and 3 plants of Ultra Sour its in the dry room now. 70F and 50%RH cut down day 55.
> 
> Ill have some final weighs in, in a few days to see how the ladies came out!! Stay tuned.
> 
> ...


wow that's amazing and proof that defoliation works


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 21, 2015)

Genetics and nutrients are a big part also.

Really tired of people on here claiming they are guru's and cannabis experts and say that nutrients are all the same.
THEY ARE NOT!!

There is no substitute for quality nutrients. You pay for what you get! To start there are 4 different levels of nutrients and how they are mad and graded. Its almost like saying all paint is paint. No its not. There are far superior paints than others. This is because of what they are made from and how they work and are applied.

You start with good genetics and provide a good environment. You feed your plants quality nutrients not cheap bullshit, and you use and implement growing techniques such as pruning, defoliation etc.. And you will get good results.

I find on this forum particularly that people think "making your own nutrients" or using cheap lab made salts will out perform quality nutrients and it is just simply bullshit.


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Genetics and nutrients are a big part also.
> 
> Really tired of people on here claiming they are guru's and cannabis experts and say that nutrients are all the same.
> THEY ARE NOT!!
> ...


plants only need high amount of NPK (different ratios at different stages veg/flower), low amount of secondly nutes( cal and mag) and then very low amount of trace nutes, stuff like iron, zink ect

if you use tap water it will often have enough secondly nutes, trace nutes but the ratio of nutes will be different in every town, country

I have to add Epson salt in early flower as my tap water low on mag, your maybe low on cal

every bag of soil has different ratio of nutes and higher amount of soil in a pot will last plants longer

I have grown cannabis with tap water + nutes at an ec of 1.6 on one crop and the next crop an ec of 1 it made no difference

every strain/plant needs a different ratio of nutes at a different strengts at diffent times in veg and flower.

different size plants need different ratio of nutes 

Its just impossible to get the perfect nutes for your plants at loads of different stages in flower but you can give the plants the basic grow and bloom nutes they need and the roots will use it when there ready


----------



## Shastafarian (Aug 21, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> Defoliation at its finest..
> Super chunks.. 6 per light 7 gallon containers day 57 Sage n Sour and Ultra Sour.
> 
> This is a Sage n Sour.. Proly 7-8 ounce plant!! Nuttin but Chunkers
> ...


 Man your getting amazing resultsare you using C02 or fresh air. I would imagine fresh air @70F wouldn't be working efficiently with Co2 well. I try and shoot for the smaller size quicker harvest every month instead of a few big yields a year. I have allready harvested 2 times figuring out my phenotypes alot faster do decide which ones I would keep going with. I know that is a very nice set up you made there and The Advanced Nutrients does a great job I like the Karma and Sweet coupled in with my Biobizz bases and the biobizz additives. Certain strains do not seem to like the defoliation as much as others and its an art to taking just enough leaf to allow light to specifically selected branches that are shaded. I dont defoliate all at once or it shocks the plant also, It needs leaves to produce photosynthesis so a certain amount left is good to continue its hardy growth for most strains. Although some strains have enough secondary leaves to manage good photosynthesis without any fan leaves and thats up to you as the grower to experiment with your phenos. I can say Og's usually dont like to be defoliated   View attachment 3483657 until you perfect it. Growing is not easy but it sure is fun. These you see her are my HashBar OG pheno #6 which has some haze in there somewhere and I vegged that one for 45 days in 2gal pots and I got 2.5oz of great nug but its not a chunky strain its OG and its well known but this was my first harvest with this strain I didn't buy clones I do have a chunky Grizzly purp K 1gal 2wk veg that I did defoliate lightly to experiment I know the leaves look a little rough I chop some just in 1/2 and some got ripped pulling them out of the trellis  and I have a chunkier HashBar #3 1gal 2wk veg  it seems Afghan dom but its not my favorite.


----------



## Shastafarian (Aug 21, 2015)

What was your veg time before 12-12?




Cannabil said:


> I took down 1 light which was the Fruity Chronic Juice 3 plants and 3 plants of Ultra Sour its in the dry room now. 70F and 50%RH cut down day 55.
> 
> Ill have some final weighs in, in a few days to see how the ladies came out!! Stay tuned.
> 
> ...


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 22, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> plants only need high amount of NPK (different ratios at different stages veg/flower), low amount of secondly nutes( cal and mag) and then very low amount of trace nutes, stuff like iron, zink ect
> 
> if you use tap water it will often have enough secondly nutes, trace nutes but the ratio of nutes will be different in every town, country
> 
> ...


First I use only R/O water. I will never use well or tap. None of the calcium and magnesium is in the form you really want to give your plants anyways. Especially tap water including all kinds of other shit in the water as well which you dont want in there either.

I run cal-mag all of veg and double dose end of veg and early flowering and stop all cal-mag week 5. You dont need it after that point. Should be plenty and abundant by then.


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 22, 2015)

Shastafarian said:


> What was your veg time before 12-12?


6 weeks of veg from seed.

This run is gonna be all from cuts so I will only need to veg for maybe 4 weeks before I turn them over.


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 22, 2015)

The sour strains I ran this time needed 10 ml cal-mag and I had to add Humboldt Verde @1-2 ml per gallon on top of feed schedule in last 2 weeks of veg and first 3 weeks of bloom. The sour varieties just demanded higher levels of nitrogen-ca-mg and the cal-mag itself just wasnt doing it. 

I never exceed 1200 ppm anytime during bloom. I do a feed feed water schedule. With 20% run off usually. Less is more. The Fruity Chronic Juice was alot more finicky about nutrients I only fed them once per week at no more than 1000 ppm and they didnt need any additional cal mag at all.

So i had to make separate batches of nutrients to feed all of them every watering but they went good for first time. My next run will be better since I know what they want now.


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 22, 2015)

Cannabil said:


> First I use only R/O water. I will never use well or tap. None of the calcium and magnesium is in the form you really want to give your plants anyways. Especially tap water including all kinds of other shit in the water as well which you dont want in there either.
> 
> I run cal-mag all of veg and double dose end of veg and early flowering and stop all cal-mag week 5. You dont need it after that point. Should be plenty and abundant by then.


yeh alway all wanted a ro system as they do put a lot crap in tap water

cal-mag is good often use it my self in flower

does your ro system cost much to set up and run ? ( filters)


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 22, 2015)

Shastafarian said:


> Man your getting amazing resultsare you using C02 or fresh air. I would imagine fresh air @70F wouldn't be working efficiently with Co2 well. I try and shoot for the smaller size quicker harvest every month instead of a few big yields a year. I have allready harvested 2 times figuring out my phenotypes alot faster do decide which ones I would keep going with. I know that is a very nice set up you made there and The Advanced Nutrients does a great job I like the Karma and Sweet coupled in with my Biobizz bases and the biobizz additives. Certain strains do not seem to like the defoliation as much as others and its an art to taking just enough leaf to allow light to specifically selected branches that are shaded. I dont defoliate all at once or it shocks the plant also, It needs leaves to produce photosynthesis so a certain amount left is good to continue its hardy growth for most strains. Although some strains have enough secondary leaves to manage good photosynthesis without any fan leaves and thats up to you as the grower to experiment with your phenos. I can say Og's usually dont like to be defoliatedView attachment 3483669 View attachment 3483655 View attachment 3483668 View attachment 3483657 until you perfect it. Growing is not easy but it sure is fun. These you see her are my HashBar OG pheno #6 which has some haze in there somewhere and I vegged that one for 45 days in 2gal pots and I got 2.5oz of great nug but its not a chunky strain its OG and its well known but this was my first harvest with this strain I didn't buy clones I do have a chunky Grizzly purp K 1gal 2wk veg that I did defoliate lightly to experiment I know the leaves look a little rough I chop some just in 1/2 and some got ripped pulling them out of the trellis View attachment 3483673 and I have a chunkier HashBar #3 1gal 2wk veg View attachment 3483675View attachment 3483676 it seems Afghan dom but its not my favorite.


OG Kush loves defoliation. Any Kush strain will benefit immensely from fan leaf removal. You lollipop the bottom removin 1/3 and strip everything but the top 3 nodes on thr main shoots a week before flowering and follow that up by completely stripping down all fan leaves on day 42 and watch how big your OG Kush colas will be. I guarantee you add 20% final yield to any plant that wasnt lollipopped and defoliated. I bet everything I own on that!!


----------



## Shastafarian (Aug 23, 2015)

10-4 


Cannabil said:


> OG Kush loves defoliation. Any Ku in sh strain will benefit immensely from fan leaf removal. You lollipop the bottom removin 1/3 and strip everything but the top 3 nodes on thr main shoots a week before flowering and follow that up by completely stripping down all fan leaves on day 42 and watch how big your OG Kush colas will be. I guarantee you add 20% final yield to any plant that wasnt lollipopped and defoliated. I bet everything I own on that!!


----------



## Darth Vapour (Aug 23, 2015)

if you want to become the best grower as well as get the best possible results stay the hell away from leaf removal..
Think about it for a second plants have evolved for some time now would you think that the plant would naturally drop its leafs so it could create more seeds ???? and do plants drop there leafs no 
The truth is only thing you are doing by removal of leafs is choking out the plant and fucking up everything 
how do plants breath ??? up take c02 ??? by removing the leafs c02 uptake is diminished, transpiration , respiration is all fucked up growth slows down and possible hermie triats begin with the stress 
there has been 100's of side by sides down unbiased and it proves that untouched plant as in leafs performed better with better yields end of story 
Now prunning is a different story shaping and or getting rid of lower bud sites will of course benefit you and yield as plant is not using its energy on lower larf buds cause think of it this way your light is 24" above the plant tops as light goes lower it loses its strength so no matter how you take it them lower bud sites 48 " from the light is going to be shit and shake when dried ...
now if we are to play by mother natures rules then by all means remove 5 - 10 percent of the mass as it would of been damaged by insects which is small removal compared to what some on here are doing and that is raping the plant 
Now i truly do not care what you do to your plant ,, but for the life of me its proven that training lower pruning and having as many bud sites near the light source will give you good yields 
And for gods sakes keep it as healthy as possible from start to finish this means having leafs so it can store sugars n starches let alone photosynthesis


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 23, 2015)

here some pics of my plant defoliation in early flower






 [/ATTACH]


----------



## jacksthc (Aug 23, 2015)

jacksthc said:


> you have done a amazing job with the canopy, you controlled the stretch really well and kept the canopy level
> 
> one of the best plants I have grown has been this one, not the most healthy plant but the yield was high
> 
> ...


and this plant defoliation in early flower


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 24, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> if you want to become the best grower as well as get the best possible results stay the hell away from leaf removal..
> Think about it for a second plants have evolved for some time now would you think that the plant would naturally drop its leafs so it could create more seeds ???? and do plants drop there leafs no
> The truth is only thing you are doing by removal of leafs is choking out the plant and fucking up everything
> how do plants breath ??? up take c02 ??? by removing the leafs c02 uptake is diminished, transpiration , respiration is all fucked up growth slows down and possible hermie triats begin with the stress
> ...


Thats actually a huge misconception and not true at all.

Indoor marijuana plants are given perfect growing environments and abundant nutrient resources. Primarily using products such as kelps and soluble seaweeds including many other things that promote excessive foliage and shoot growth.

Indoor plants are not affected by bugs, insects, animal and weather issues which plague outdoor crops. Cannabis plants have natural ability to continue to grow after leaf loss and thrive perfectly fine outdoor when losing a good majority of their leaves from natural causes. Since you do not have these issues indoors you are left with heavily foliated plant with abundant leaves and shoots to promote root growth. Once flowering comes the use of all of those fan leaves isnt needed as it was during veg. The plants are now focusing on developing buds and flowers not root growth after the 2/3 week of bloom.

Removing these leaves convert usable energy back into bud growth instead of keeping the leaves and useless under brush alive. Thats why you benefit from removing it when grown indoors. The problem with people have bad results and mislead information results in subpar grows and sacrificed yields because of mis applying the techniques and incorrectly using them at both the wrong time and to the wrong plants. 

Both selective leaf removal, and defoliation/shoot stripping etc.. Need to be applie properly and only in growing conditions favorable for using that tehcnique to serve a purpose. You cant strip a plant that isnt heavily foliated and untopped thats already growing lanky and tall with little to no leaves to begin with. Defoliation and lollipopping is for huge plants that have been topped and are massive and abundant with foliage. The purpose is to make all available light useful and to eradicate or limit the potential for molds/fungus problem to develop in your garden.

I think many people who use defoliation and have shit results is because misapplication. And bad information much like what you stated in your post. Yes plant grow abundant leaves and shoots, but it doesnt need all of them during flowering. It used them to grow massive root systems which is what will carry your plant thru bloom even after you strip shoots and leaves from the plant. When done correctly it has 0 negative effects on your plant health or yields. And will infact grow larger flowers and bigger buds. This is a fact. I posted several huge plants that are lollipopped 1/3 of way up and stripped down 3 times during bloom.

I just finished drying up the first of 2 lights I did the first one is done and curing. I got 29.5 ounces off of 6 plants which were all grown 1 week less of veg and only in 5 gallon containers. The final larger 6 plants which got 6 weeks of veg were grown in the larger 7 gallons containers (which I transplanted 2-3rd week of bloom out of the 5 gallons). These should leave me with a final yield of 2.5 lbs off that final one 1000w light. If I didnt defoliate and strip them down the way I did I would have never gotten these results. I would have been left with tons of fluffy popcorn garbage on the bottoms which I have less then 2 ounces of from 12 plants. It grew nothing but huge dense tops because I used that technique of defoliation to focus all energy on the upper canopy and stripped all fan leaves at day 42 which grew rock hard chunkers 18"-24" colas as I showed in previous posts and multiple threads.

Defoliation works hands down but you need to apply it correctly and now when, why and how. Otherwise you will ruin your girls and make posts about how you lost your yield. Thats because of user error.


----------



## Darth Vapour (Aug 24, 2015)

lol ok there dude thats not bad  29.5 oz holy crap when i break it down my 6 plants i got 3.875 pounds indoor that comes out to what for 6 plants 60 0z almost 61 dry oz . no defoilating only cleaned under canopy vegged 5 weeks 34 gallon totes some people have seen my cola's comparing them to 5 gallon pails just saying we can sit here and go back n forth to me it doesn't matter i really do not care if you skin your plant it will with out a doubt effect many functions that the plant does like Breathing taking in c02 more leafs more stomata 's this has been done numerious times by very good growers and no matter what buds 48 " away from the light source if you skinned your plant will be larf no matter how you shake it right


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 25, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> lol ok there dude thats not bad  29.5 oz holy crap when i break it down my 6 plants i got 3.875 pounds indoor that comes out to what for 6 plants 60 0z almost 61 dry oz . no defoilating only cleaned under canopy vegged 5 weeks 34 gallon totes some people have seen my cola's comparing them to 5 gallon pails just saying we can sit here and go back n forth to me it doesn't matter i really do not care if you skin your plant it will with out a doubt effect many functions that the plant does like Breathing taking in c02 more leafs more stomata 's this has been done numerious times by very good growers and no matter what buds 48 " away from the light source if you skinned your plant will be larf no matter how you shake it right


6 plants on a 5 week veg that yieled almost 4 pounds? Bullshit. I been growing for over a decade and I have grown in all types of media with huge setups and small setups. There is no way in fckin hell you can yield 10 ounces per plant in a 5 week veg under one 1000 watt grow. Thats absolute bullshit.

If you are telling me you are yielding even 3.5 lbs off of a single 1000w grow you are full of shit. Sorry but take that somewhere else. Im not into story telling.

If you get roughly 1.5 lbs per 1000w grow you know what you are doing.

Anything over 2 lbs per light you are an expert.

If you can harvest over 2.5 lbs per 1000w light then you are in the 1% club which I doubt you are. Some of the best growers in the world on even the best yieldeng strains can barely get 2 lbs per light. And thats professional 20-30 year indoor growers who been growing same strains in absolute perfect environments.

3.85 lbs off a 1000w hahaha yah okay buddy. Sure lemme guess you are the son of God too right? What other bs story u got for us today? Smh. Anyone who even thinks they believe your whale tale should be banned from this site.


----------



## Cannabil (Aug 25, 2015)

Defoliation only works when it is done correctly and for specific reasons. Untopped plants it will be no benefit. Small plants it will do nothing.

Defoliation is for large robust heavily packed rooms that are grown utilizing and maximizing all the light by focusing strictly on upper plant growth IE. Canopy growing where all underbrush is removed. I have almost no larf or popcorn buds at all. On all 12 plants I have less then 2 ounces of scrap pieces its all chunks and tops. Premium meds. I got just over 4 lbs off 2 lights. Thats very good results. 

If i didnt defoliate I would have never gotten to that yield. Probably been lucky to hit 3 if I let them grow out and never removed leaves. Your plant needs leaves to grow big strong roots systems in veg. In flowering its not as important to have all that foliage. Which sucks up nutrients and vital resources where you are focusing on bud production not leaf production and roots. By the 3rd wk of flower your roots are no longer growing and expanding they r there to support the plant and drive bud production. Thats why removing the leaves at critical times increases yield and doesnt affect plant health etc.. Maybe im not explaining it the best but thats how it works.


----------

