# Was jesus real?



## bobharvey (Mar 21, 2008)

Besides the bible, is there any other evidence that Jesus actually lived.


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## Taipan (Mar 21, 2008)

no, there isnt. there might be some sacred scrolls hidden some where but at this point the only 'evidence' of him actually living are his stories in the holy bible


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## ZenMaster (Mar 21, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> Besides the bible, is there any other evidence that Jesus actually lived.


The Bible is the oldest history book. And it is proven that Jesus existed because it gives his heritage at the beginning of the New Testament. Jesus existing is undeniable.


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## Taipan (Mar 21, 2008)

ZenMaster said:


> The Bible is the oldest history book. And it is proven that Jesus existed because it gives his heritage at the beginning of the New Testament. Jesus existing is undeniable.


im not saying jesus didnt exist, im just saying that the bible is the only record.


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## Taipan (Mar 21, 2008)

.oops double clicked


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## edux10 (Mar 21, 2008)

Is there really a rollitup.org meetup on may 3rd? Why in canada?


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## Taipan (Mar 21, 2008)

edux10 said:


> Is there really a rollitup.org meetup on may 3rd? Why in canada?


because there is a marijuana march in Toronto on may 3rd, last year 20 000 people showed up to smoke up.  and no one has ever been arrested in the 10years its been held. click the link at the bottom of my post it will take you to the offical forum


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## bearo420 (Mar 21, 2008)

jesus makes people feel comfortable. but anyone with a brain and eyes can see its all just a fairytale to make you go to bed happy. Were closer to animals than superhuman gods.


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## growingmom (Mar 21, 2008)

He was a magician...did magic...he'd amaze you with his magic..


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## edux10 (Mar 21, 2008)

huh, he was just a trickster that fooled everyone..


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 21, 2008)

*I lean more to darwin.science has proven so much.i believe it was a book {moral guideline}for humans to follow to be decent people..But there is always that mustard seed of faith and they say thats all you need!!




We dont recieve wisdom.we must discover it for ourself after a journey that no one can take for us or spare us!!
Marcel Proust
*


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## bobharvey (Mar 21, 2008)

maybe it's a fairytale invented to make trillions of dollars


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## growingmom (Mar 22, 2008)

a magic man..performed miracles...made people believe....died on the cross...for your sins...or his ????? did have he any ??? sins that is ?? the apostles would tell ya.. NO...he said " it is done" ......and died to save your soul ?? died between 2 petty thieves..on a cross?? I guess you must ask yourself..could it be ??


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 22, 2008)

*There's that mustard seed again!!!!!!!!*


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## bongspit (Mar 22, 2008)

*I say no...that was supposedly thousands of years ago...we don't get shit right that happened 50 years ago...*


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## growingmom (Mar 22, 2008)

bongspit said:


> *I say no...that was supposedly thousands of years ago...we don't get shit right that happened 50 years ago...*


Ohhh were talkin 2000 thousand years..maybe he did,,,die for your sins..


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## bobharvey (Mar 22, 2008)

so do you have any historical proof that jesus existed besides the bible?


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## growingmom (Mar 22, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> so do you have any historical proof that jesus existed besides the bible?


I guess that depends...do you believe every person you have lost in this lifetime..is just buried..buried beneath the earth never to recognize,,or see your soul..again ?? or are they waiting for you in a perfect place ??


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## bobharvey (Mar 22, 2008)

That doesn't answer my question in any way shape or form.


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## growingmom (Mar 22, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> That doesn't answer my question in any way shape or form.


answer mine..I don't have proof..and neither do you..


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## bobharvey (Mar 22, 2008)

i don't need proof...i'm not the one saying he existed.


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## growingmom (Mar 22, 2008)

well..prove he didn't???


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## bobharvey (Mar 22, 2008)

that's like saying "prove santa clause doesn't exist..."


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## bongspit (Mar 22, 2008)

*I have fucking seen santa claus...so don't go there...*


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## bobharvey (Mar 22, 2008)

sorry i should have went with spongebob


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## bongspit (Mar 22, 2008)

*cool.......*


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## boooky (Mar 22, 2008)

I beleive their was a cool man named jesus that followed aliens.....And got killed for it...They still dont want us to know aliens exist......I need to stop watching history channle high..


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## OakRollsSlow (Mar 22, 2008)

i met a man named jesus, he was a landscaper though.


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## bearo420 (Mar 22, 2008)

you guys know mary had kids before jesus. and after jesus. that whore had mad kids. but the one that can pull a bird out his ass and makes wine becomes god. yeah right. i think mary got raped. couldnt tell all her tribe members for fear of being banished. so she said hey im pregnant but didnt have sex. everyone was like well your hot. so ok must be god, your mine next though. and sure enough she had more kids after. 

and hey anyone making wine and doing magic is going to be fuckin popular. jesus was smart. even thousands of years later people are tricked.


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## email468 (Mar 22, 2008)

If you want Jesus to exist and are looking for proof that he did and does - don't read the following books. If you are interested in what real historians have discovered, here is a short reading list:
Incredible Shrinking Son of Man - Robert Price
The Jesus Puzzle - Earl Doherty
Holy Writ as Oral Lit - Alan Dundes
Biblical Nonsense - Jason Long
Gospel Fictions - Randel Helms

If you would prefer to get a quick introduction to the history of Christianity and the new testament, then I recommend the DVD "The God Who Wasn't There" by Brian Flemming (the DVD features many of the authors above as they are the premier biblical scholars).

But if you decide to watch the DVD be aware that there is new evidence which nullifies even the Josephus reference making the evidence for Jesus as being real even more tenuous (at best).


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## email468 (Mar 22, 2008)

ZenMaster said:


> The Bible is the oldest history book. And it is proven that Jesus existed because it gives his heritage at the beginning of the New Testament. Jesus existing is undeniable.


Wrong, wrong and even more wrong. Just because you believe it, does not make it so.

There is very little real history in the bible.

Not to get personal but how do you marry the literal truth of the bible (which you obviously believe) and Zen, Zenmaster?


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 22, 2008)

Sure Jesus existed,I bought some brickweed from him in Matamoros in '69, at least I think that was his name....


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 22, 2008)

Pontius Pilate was a Scottish man His family moved from rome and he was born there before they moved back to rome

Can u picture that him ordering Jesus to death with a Scotish tounge ..... Ed ov prolly called em JiMMY instead of Jesus haha

And it is believed john the baptist, his mother was Marys aunt i that made him a distant cousin of john


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 22, 2008)

Gee I just broke up picturing Pilate with a scottish accent, LOL!


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## email468 (Mar 22, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> Pontius Pilate was a Scottish man family move from rome and he was born there before they moved back to rome
> 
> Can u picture that him ordering Jesus to death with a Scotish tounge ..... Ed ov prolly called em JiMMY instead of Jesus haha
> 
> And it is believed john the baptist, his mother was Marys aunt i that made him a distant cousin of john


can you picture the Jewish high council meeting on passover eve? or a roman governor feeling the need to "defend" a known Jewish insurrectionist?


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## wes87t (Mar 22, 2008)

The bible is definitely not the oldest history book. There are many religious texts which predate the bible by hundreds of years.


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## gotdamunchies (Mar 22, 2008)

The bible is a fairy tale!!!
There is more physical evidence about dinosaurs existing, then there will ever be about "Jesus" and all of his supposed accomplishments....But ask most Evangelical Christians and they will tell you that dinos never existed or the same creationist morons want you to believe that man and dinosaur co-existed side by side (check out the new creationist museum in KY that shows man riding dinosaurs like horses on saddles) ....these are the same idiots that ask you to believe the planet is only 6000 years old, or the dinos never existed, or that "Jesus" was who they claim him to be....lets move into the next millenium people....RELIGION IS A GOVERNMENT HOAX THAT WAS USED TO CONTROL UNEDUCATED MASSES BY USING FEAR, A HOAX THAT IS THOUSANDS OF YEARS OLD!!!!

JESUS:
Born 12/25
From a virgin
Followed by 3 kings
had 12 disciples
performed miracles
was crucified
buried for 3 days
was resurrected
blah, blah, blah

So were these "gods"
Egypt- Horas in 3000bc
Greece - Attis in 1200bc
India = Krishna in 900bc
Greece = Dionysus in 500bc
Persia = Mithra in 1200bc

Before you try to tell me your god is the only god, make sure and do some more research and see where they stole some of the stories in the bible from....dont just watch the movie folks, do the research....


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 22, 2008)

I have always believed that organized religon was dreamed up by incompetent hunter-gatherers to con the rest of the tribe out of food. Prove me wrong.


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 22, 2008)

email468 said:


> can you picture the Jewish high council meeting on passover eve? or a roman governor feeling the need to "defend" a known Jewish insurrectionist?


Id like to talk to you about this email but its saturday night and the god thread is getting hot again haha so i,ll let ya,s blast away 

If Jesus never excisted does this mean matt mark luke and john never eather mary or joe , Pontius pilate John the bap, Judus , or was it just jesus that dident excist ?


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 22, 2008)

Pontius Pilate, Herod and Herod Agrippa are historical figures recorded in Roman sources. There are no contempory accounts of Jesus .


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## email468 (Mar 22, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> Id like to talk to you about this email but its saturday night and the god thread is getting hot again haha so i,ll let ya,s blast away
> 
> If Jesus never excisted does this mean matt mark luke and john never eather mary or joe , Pontius pilate John the bap, Judus , or was it just jesus that dident excist ?


The historians I've read agree that the apostles existed and wrote gospel stories (the good news). Though they didn't write them until decades (and sometimes centuries) after the dates given for Jesus' life. In fact there are many, many apostles and gospels that aren't in the bible and some are even canonical. 

The historians I would cite also agree that Paul was the author of all those letters (written after the date given for Jesus' death but before the gospels) and Pilate is part of the Roman bureaucracy with ample corroborating evidence of his existence and would further argue that this is the point of the gospels.

I am uncertain regarding Judas however - i would have to do some research though I'm pretty sure there is some canonical literature attributed to him - but don't quote me on that. Jesus, John the Baptist, and Mary/Joseph all have very little (or no) supporting evidence outside the bible. Of course, if the bible is enough of an authority for you then case closed. But if you are looking for corroborating evidence then it is unlikely they ever existed.

That's not to say that archeologists couldn't uncover some new scrolls, tombs or evidence that would corroborate the stories.

But since we're talking about history here, the two times the gospels pin down Jesus to a real time in history is the story of the slaughter of the innocents (King Herod had first born sons put to death to kill Jesus) and the Roman Governor Pilate sentencing Jesus to death by crucifixion. 

The story of Herod is clearly derived right out of the Book of Exodus (the Ten Commandments and Plagues of Egypt) and there is no evidence Herod ever engaged in murdering all the firstborn sons.

And the second instance we already pointed out the unlikeliness of the Jewish Supreme Council meeting on passover eve to decide anything, let alone to preside over a simple blasphemy trial. And the even greater unlikeliness that Pilate would have felt any need to let Barrabas go - Barrabas - an insurrectionist and killer of Romans let go?!? and then after letting Barrabas go then, for some inexplicable reason, decides to defend Jesus. This begs so many questions and seems so unlikely that this would have to be another one of Jesus' miracles. 

Here is a little aside - some translations give Barrabas' first name as Jesus - so it was Jesus Barrabas and Jesus of Nazareth on trial.

I realize this can be shocking if you've never heard secular historians discuss the "real" bible before so I would say that this in no way takes away from the meaning and morals of the stories and the lessons Christ has to teach. In fact, taking Him out of history, I think, emphasizes the timelessness of the message.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 22, 2008)

there is a gospel of Judas recently translated known from a single manuscript carbon-dated to late 3rd century. Heavily gnostic in perspective, Judas is the agent of Jesus' fulfillment, not his betrayer, in opposition to the canonical four gospels.


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## email468 (Mar 22, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> there is a gospel of Judas recently translated known from a single manuscript carbon-dated to late 3rd century. Heavily gnostic in perspective, Judas is the agent of Jesus' fulfillment, not his betrayer, in opposition to the canonical four gospels.


Thanks for the info... is this what Martin Scorsese based his film on?


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## shnkrmn (Mar 22, 2008)

No, that's based on a novel by Nikos Kazantzakis who also wrote Zorba the Greek. I think Scorsese wouldn't have been aware of the gospel of Judas when he worked on that film in the 80's. No scholarly work on the manuscript had been done at that time. Kazantzakis' book was a leap of the imagination in its entirety (I think).


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## email468 (Mar 22, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> No, that's based on a novel by Nikos Kazantzakis who also wrote Zorba the Greek. I think Scorsese wouldn't have been aware of the gospel of Judas when he worked on that film in the 80's. No scholarly work on the manuscript had been done at that time. Kazantzakis' book was a leap of the imagination in its entirety (I think).


oh that's right - thanks for jogging my memory. The re-working of Judas immediately triggered my recollection of the film.


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## boooky (Mar 22, 2008)

email468 said:


> oh that's right - thanks for jogging my memory. The re-working of Judas immediately triggered my recollection of the film.


Shut up everyone knew he wore sandles.......


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## shnkrmn (Mar 22, 2008)

Oh, that's boooky, lol. 

Boookie, I love your sig, but it sandals, not 'sandles'. Christ!!! j/k on a couple of levels.



boooky said:


> Shut up everyone knew he wore sandles.......


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## boooky (Mar 22, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> Oh, that's boooky, lol.
> 
> Boookie, I love your sig, but it sandals, not 'sandles'. Christ!!! j/k on a couple of levels.


Kitty on crack is awsome...


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## shnkrmn (Mar 22, 2008)

Well, yes, kitty could give it up for the tiniest crumb, but your sig is what really makes me chuckle. Pisses my wife off too. heheh



boooky said:


> Kitty on crack is awsome...


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## bongspit (Mar 22, 2008)

*who cares?




*


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 23, 2008)

email468 said:


> The historians I've read agree that the apostles existed and wrote gospel stories (the good news). Though they didn't write them until decades (and sometimes centuries) after the dates given for Jesus' life. In fact there are many, many apostles and gospels that aren't in the bible and some are even canonical.
> 
> The historians I would cite also agree that Paul was the author of all those letters (written after the date given for Jesus' death but before the gospels) and Pilate is part of the Roman bureaucracy with ample corroborating evidence of his existence and would further argue that this is the point of the gospels.
> 
> ...



I dident get the chance to read all this but if u can type that much you must be right 

take it easy 

peaceeeeeeeeeeee


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## bobharvey (Mar 23, 2008)

email468 said:


> If you want Jesus to exist and are looking for proof that he did and does - don't read the following books. If you are interested in what real historians have discovered, here is a short reading list:
> Incredible Shrinking Son of Man - Robert Price
> The Jesus Puzzle - Earl Doherty
> Holy Writ as Oral Lit - Alan Dundes
> ...


thanks finally someone with some sources..


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## email468 (Mar 23, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> I dident get the chance to read all this but if u can type that much you must be right
> 
> take it easy
> 
> peaceeeeeeeeeeee


Oh man - i don't know about being right - i was just quoting some reputable historians trying to help Bob out.


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## bobharvey (Mar 23, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> wanna suck me now too bob


what a weird comment.


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> what a weird comment.


You thought about it didnt you?


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

Thanks for another moronic post.


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> Thanks for another moronic post.


And that makes you hypocritical? If you dont like my "moronic" posts then ignore them(I believe you have this option is in the tabloids on the side, click them.)..Dont make a "moronic" post about me being "moronic" its just "moronic"....

I mean some people just walk around with their finger up their ass waiting for me to call them on being gay...Well....Why does that make me the bad person? I dont go to bed with itchey butt and wake up with stinky finger, but some around here act like they do...So quick to jump on someones ass for a sence of humor because you lack one? Get real or take your finger out your ass because its making you crazy.


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## jumifera (Mar 24, 2008)

from my point view some one wrote that book telling you what was right and what was wrong ,but they say that its god's life so people would listen and care for what it says, for example....dont dihonor your parents,dont steal. i personaly belive in god but who knows the bible can be real or some thing else????


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

boooky said:


> And that makes you hypocritical? If you dont like my "moronic" posts then ignore them(I believe you have this option is in the tabloids on the side, click them.)..Dont make a "moronic" post about me being "moronic" its just "moronic"....
> 
> I mean some people just walk around with their finger up their ass waiting for me to call them on being gay...Well....Why does that make me the bad person? I dont go to bed with itchey butt and wake up with stinky finger, but some around here act like they do...So quick to jump on someones ass for a sence of humor because you lack one? Get real or take your finger out your ass because its making you crazy.


It would only be hypocritical on bob's part if he also posted irrelevant, insulting or non sequitur posts.


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 24, 2008)

Email to talk about some 1s faith belief and culture an tell them its bullshit is far more insulting in the 1st place ,

any thing goes i guess ....


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 24, 2008)

jesus might smite my grow!!!!!!!lol


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 24, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> jesus might smite my grow!!!!!!!lol


Nah. he'd smoke it! The tree of life after all!!


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> Email to talk about some 1s faith belief and culture an tell them its bullshit is far more insulting in the 1st place ,
> 
> any thing goes i guess ....


I don't recall ever telling anyone their faith, belief or culture is bullshit. Giving someone evidence that disagrees with their faith is not, in my opinion, insulting.

Name calling or baseless negative assertions, as well as telling someone to "suck me too" are all insulting. 

and at least my posts are on topic - what exactly are you expecting with a thread entitled "Was Jesus real?"

someone disagreeing with you is not an insult. someone calling you a name for disagreeing with you is an insult.


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 24, 2008)

*i never dogged anyone,just a little humor!!!!!!!




a sense of humor is the difference between ambition and achievement










*


email468 said:


> I don't recall ever telling anyone their faith, belief or culture is bullshit. Giving someone evidence that disagrees with their faith is not, in my opinion, insulting.
> 
> Name calling or baseless negative assertions, as well as telling someone to "suck me too" are all insulting.
> 
> ...


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> *i never dogged anyone,just a little humor!!!!!!!
> 
> a sense of humor is the difference between ambition and achievement
> 
> *


never said you did - i don't think SHOOT2KILL66 was talking about you. I think he was responding to my response to boooky. but i'm often wrong so could be mistaken.


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 24, 2008)

email468 said:


> I don't recall ever telling anyone their faith, belief or culture is bullshit. Giving someone evidence that disagrees with their faith is not, in my opinion, insulting.
> 
> Name calling or baseless negative assertions, as well as telling someone to "suck me too" are all insulting.
> 
> ...


And were did i say u were insulting any 1 this hole thread is a insult to some people thats how any thing goes 

And I never insulted any 1 bob was licking ass just to prove you right and others wrong you can suck my cock 2 if you like haha

So this is how it is all the 70 apostles was real ,All romans real ,Judas real, Pontious Pilate that killed him also real ......
So it was just every 1 else real except Jesus ..........
cheers 4 that . 

He was only a man like us why wouldent he be real


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

if you are insulted by this thread then simply don't read it. problem solved.

and insulting bob for complimenting me for answering his question is somehow bad in your eyes? As far as i can tell he wasn't being a sycophant - he was just being polite and displaying good manners. 

and now i can suck cock too? insults merely degrade the insulter. I am disappointed that you are resorting to it.


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 24, 2008)

* fdd banned me for less shit than that i think youre in for a week break*


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> * fdd banned me for less shit than that i think youre in for a week break*


who are you saying should be banned, me? SHOOT2KILL66? i don't think either one of us said or did anything ban-worthy.


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 24, 2008)

*no this is coming out wrong.i suppose fdd2blk banned me for saying fuck you too someone.so i also assumed saying suck my dick to an elite member would prompt a staff member to ban him also.and maybe i was banned for no good reason..it wasnt you 468 and i was warning shooter

*


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 24, 2008)

dry your eyes mate lmao


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## Miracle Smoke (Mar 24, 2008)

I am not christian for certain reasons, i was brought up to be christian, until 
i did some search myself.

I am not against christ, i am against christians.

I do not know if he existed or not (Im agnostic),
but i do know that he was portrayed as a forgiving
guy who forgave those who did wrong to him.

Similar to mahatma gandhi, not many could do such things
i believe.

To be tortured, humilated, and etc, an still have no hatred towards
the people who did those actions to you is courageous.

Also check out about mesopotamia and its relations
to the old testament.

So there is my (2) cents.


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> *no this is coming out wrong.i suppose fdd2blk banned me for saying fuck you too someone.so i also assumed saying suck my dick to an elite member would prompt a staff member to ban him also.and maybe i was banned for no good reason.happened in this thread.it wasnt you 468 and i was warning shooter
> 
> *


i gotcha and agree (though i don't think "elite" means we have special privileges - we just pay to support the site). i don't personally feel threatened by insults or someone telling me to "suck my cock" - and certainly wouldn't expect a mod to ban him for it but that is up to the mods to decide. But i wouldn't report it since i don't feel insulted - continuing insults and ignorance may be viewed less graciously however. just trying to have a decent conversation about the historical verisimilitude of Jesus and his life. And i tried to do so without insulting, condescending or making assumptions but I apparently failed in that goal.

sorry to hear about your being banned - you seem pretty level-headed to me.


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 24, 2008)

I found this a very good read even if i believe its right or wrong its a good way to structure your life , But good is usually met with evil in both large and small forms from the school fields to the world wide figure 

https://www.rollitup.org/politics/22416-jesus-leftist-just-you-vi.html

Have a read at it ..... its not all fact just a good read


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

I started this thread looking for someone to give me any actual, factual sources that say Jesus Christ existed besides the Bible. If you wanted to prove that Mickey Mouse existed wouldn't you ask someone besides Walt Disney? Yes that is a metaphor. Shooter, idk who you are and I don't care. I'm not insulting you, if anything I wouldn't I be acting like a Christian by trying to "seek the truth?" You are a moron. Why would you get on my thread and completely hijack it insinuating that email and I are homosexuals? That is moronic behavior. You have no sources to cite, you have no helpful advice or knowledge. Please stop posting on this thread if you don't in fact have anything (and here's the main part) "HELPFUL" to say. And I am a Christian, that's the thing. I'm questioning my faith and I'm looking for guidance outside of the Christion faith structure. So, go away. You are of absolutely no value to me or this thread.


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

Please stop harassing me and leave this thread alone. You do realize that every time you post your nonsense, it gets bumped up and other people not only see this thread but see how big of a moron you are being.


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> He was only a man like us why wouldent he be real


Do you even know where the Bible comes from? Jesus didn't write the Bible. God didn't write the Bible. Men wrote the BIBLE. Since when is the word of man worth anything? If Jesus was a real person. Then those really smart Roman guys you heard of in school, would have wrote about him. No here's the catch. Historians are men too...the same kind of people that wrote the Bible. Catch my drift? If mens words are good enough to base a religion on, why can't I search to see if Jesus Christ actually even existed.


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 24, 2008)

I have enjoyed some of the more serious discussion on this thread, it's too bad that some people cannot discuss religon without falling back into "faith"as an argument. I thought that you were asking for historical documentation of Jesus's life. I am not aware of any Roman or Jewish texts surviving that document Jesus. If anyone can refute this I would like to see their documentation.


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

That's all that I want. I want evidence from both sides. I want Christians to get mad at me. I want you to call me names....i don't care, as long as you give me a source.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

Not to be too pedantic (I know I am) but the Dead Sea Scrolls do not contain any direct information on the early life of Jesus. The Scrolls are thought by many to hold the religious beliefs of the Essenes, a Jewish sect which existed around the time of Jesus' putative life. Some scholars interpret the word 'Essenes' as meaning 'followers of Jesus', but more recent scholarship tends to discount this argument. There are, however, some theological similarities between the Essenes and early Christians and speculation that Jesus spent his youth among them and derived his doctrine from what he learned from them has led to much recent popular fiction dwelling on this theme. But the scrolls themselves do not hold any confirmation of Jesus' historical existence, the topic of this thread.


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

awesome. Another question I want answers to is what were the criteria for pickiing the books that make up the Bible. I know that there are other books I have a lot more research to do on this subject. But why does the Christian faith have to be based on these books and why aren't the other books taught. The only thing I want to understand is that Christians just believe. They never question the faith. Why not question the faith? Isn't faith supported by evidence? That's the same as believing someone is guilty of a crime without weighing the evidence before hand. The Bible is not evidence. Why weren't the Gospels written as Jesus lived...instead of years later? Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament. He was God according to Catholics...then why didn't he just write it. He knew Judas was going to betray him...and that was his apostle. Why wouldn't authors of the book get it wrong too? Why aren't these questions being asked? Why blind faith? WHY?


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## Miracle Smoke (Mar 24, 2008)

My apologies, the lost books of the bible, i believe.

Child Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

Most modern Christians are not aware of the early history of the Christian church, as opposed to the narratives contained in the New Testament. As the new sect expanded beyond the borders of Palestine and took root, especially in Asia Minor, Greece and Egypt, a need for uniform doctrine was felt by early church leaders. This need was first addressed by the Council of Nicaea, convened in 325 by Constantine. This meeting of church leaders attempted to define orthodoxy and thus eliminate heretical or non-authentic beliefs and texts. The result of the Council was the Nicene creed which is the 'mission statement', if you will, of early Christianity and the core of Christian belief today. It is still recited by many denominations. This creed was then used as a tool to examine and confirm or eliminate texts on the basis of their conformity to the creed. This is a wholly inadequate exposition of a very tangled subject. Some of the books Email recommended in an earlier post will help you flesh out this brief intro. Or send you into a absolute welter of confusion!


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

Miracle Smoke said:


> My apologies, the lost books of the bible, i believe.
> 
> Child Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


No need to apologize. I'm always amused by the 'lost books' of the bible construct though. Like they slipped down between the couch cushions, lol. It's the early church fathers who deliberately 'lost' them because they did not conform to the church they were trying to regularize. The Infant Gospel of St. Thomas your link refers to is a good example of the kind of text the early church fathers expunged because it contained doctrines which did not conform to orthodoxy for one reason or another. The gospel of Judas, to which I referred earlier, and was not known in modern times until it was discovered in the 1970's is another. We had never seen the text, but there were references to it in the writings of the Early church fathers. Clearly they didn't like so, presto, it's lost.


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> awesome. Another question I want answers to is what were the criteria for pickiing the books that make up the Bible. I know that there are other books I have a lot more research to do on this subject. But why does the Christian faith have to be based on these books and why aren't the other books taught. The only thing I want to understand is that Christians just believe. They never question the faith. Why not question the faith? Isn't faith supported by evidence? That's the same as believing someone is guilty of a crime without weighing the evidence before hand. The Bible is not evidence. Why weren't the Gospels written as Jesus lived...instead of years later? Why didn't Jesus write the New Testament. He was God according to Catholics...then why didn't he just write it. He knew Judas was going to betray him...and that was his apostle. Why wouldn't authors of the book get it wrong too? Why aren't these questions being asked? Why blind faith? WHY?


You are asking questions that the answers can forever shake your faith. Faith is belief without - or even IN SPITE OF the evidence. Which to me, faith is a terrible, awful, and downright evil thing to consider a virtue. But that is just an opinion of course.

But you are asking several different things and they are all kind of confusing when they are jumbled up like this. 

I'm not sure if this is going to add to your confusion or dismay but science isn't out to prove god or jesus or anything exists or doesn't exist. Science merely looks (and so far has found) natural explanations for the world and universe around us. Can science explain everything? No. Does scientific evidence point to the bible as literal truth? No. Quite the opposite in fact.

Again, not to add to your confusion, but here are some more questions for you...
why would an all-knowing, all-powerful God have to correct his mistakes twice? Once with a flood and once by sending his Son to die. 

And wouldn't an all-knowing (omniscient) God already know what is going to happen even before he "lets there be light"?

Why would an all-knowing, all-loving God create Evil and let evil loose in the world KNOWING what is going to happen? And why create Man to fail and then punish him for failing?

why would God be jealous of other Gods (ten commandments) if no other Gods exist? and the phrase graven image is used so we are talking about other gods and not substitutes for gods like sex and money.

And why would a God - whose mind we can never know - display a childish human emotion like anger and jealousy anyway? 

And why didn't He just forgive us since we are His creation and can only act the way He made us, instead of making his own Son suffer for us - and then make a big deal about it? If you are going to do us a favor, just do it - no thanks is normally necessary. Especially when He didn't even have to lift a finger and just sent his Son to do the dirty work. Some "loving" father, huh?

The two stories that got me questioning my parent's faith (it never really was mine - i didn't pick it), was the story of Moses and the story of Isaac and Abraham. The part in the Moses story that sickened me is when God killed all the first born sons in Egypt to persuade the Pharaoh to "let his people go". Weren't all those newborns God's little creatures or just fodder for his angry tantrums?

The second story is when God commands Abraham to take his first born son Isaac to the top of a mountain and sacrifice him. Abraham is actually going to do it and God steps in at the last minute to save the day and instead father and son sacrifice a black ram that magically appears. OK - first off any father willing to kill their son (or daughter) is disgustingly sick and demented. But following a God that demands blood sacrifice up to and including humans?!? yikes that is one fucking twisted scary story.

I could go on and on and on - but these are the types of questions you ask when you read the bible as the word of god and interpret the text literally. If you read things in the metaphoric and allegoric language that was intended then some of these hate-filled and contradictory items becomes more poetic and some of the stories are actually quite beautiful and touching but many still contain hate, bigotry, racism, and intolerance. Of course, hate, bigotry, racism, and intolerance are recurring themes in any religion (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) based on the torah and subsequent writings.


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## gotdamunchies (Mar 24, 2008)

Shoot2kill66, you are just a complete fucking idiot....and I dont give a rats ass if i get banned for the comment or not. If this is not a topic you can add any CONSTRUCTIVE comments to then by all means,

FUCK OFF!!!


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## ORECAL (Mar 24, 2008)

my personal opinion is that jesus is bullshit. I'm not saying that the person named jesus didn't exist, but I don't think that the religious affiliation with "jesus" is correct. the bible is a book, written by someone that wanted to tell a story. personally the bible is just the oldest known fiction book in the world.


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## ORECAL (Mar 24, 2008)

gotdamunchies said:


> Shoot2kill66, you are just a complete fucking idiot....and I dont give a rats ass if i get banned for the comment or not. If this is not a topic you can add any CONSTRUCTIVE comments to then by all means,
> 
> FUCK OFF!!!


haha, that's fucking great.... I hope you don't consider my comments to be "non- constructive". I'm just giving my personal opinion, no facts behind it, no sources, just thought. My parents raised me as roman catholic.

edit: just wanted to add that being raised roman catholic SUCKED. and I've learned all about the catholic religion, and yet still think it's bullshit.


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## gotdamunchies (Mar 24, 2008)

I had a Catholic priest explain to me once how he believed the bible was written and he used a analogy that was easy for me to understand at the time, since I was only 11....

Imagine a bunch of people sitting in a circle, and if you can imagine the circle being 1000 years long (bear with me)...now pick a starting point and whisper in the ear of person number one and tell that person to pass it on. Now after that message reaches all the way back to where it started, do you think that it will be the same?? We have all done this in school and know that the message is never the same. 

The bible was written in the same fashion, by many different people, of many different periods in time. It is a book full of many great stories and ideas, and can be used a great tool in teaching somebody how to live a productive life, be happy, and to treat others with respect when respect is earned. But most of it is not fact and should never be taken as fact. Faith in a all seeing all knowing god is an evil thing that is used to kill more people than we could ever imagine....one true statement that I carry with me is this: 

Salvation lies within. 

Within yourself, not a book.


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## ORECAL (Mar 24, 2008)

gotdamunchies said:


> I had a Catholic priest explain to me once how he believed the bible was written and he used a analogy that was easy for me to understand at the time, since I was only 11....
> 
> Imagine a bunch of people sitting in a circle, and if you can imagine the circle being 1000 years long (bear with me)...now pick a starting point and whisper in the ear of person number one and tell that person to pass it on. Now after that message reaches all the way back to where it started, do you think that it will be the same?? We have all done this in school and know that the message is never the same.
> 
> ...


that's some good insight, I wish I had priests that could would tell a story like that...


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## twostarhotel (Mar 24, 2008)

well since the bible wasnt actually put together until the 16th pope or something
i think its hard to know what were missing, people back then wernt even allowd to read the bible, i think jesus was a real man and as a young lad traveled to india and the himilayas to teach and learn , which they over there have scrolls and stories of, jesus may or may not have been the son of god but his teachings have clearly changed the world, and we can thank the church of man for messing the whole story up, i think jesus was an amazing person miracles or not, he represents todays christianity but had a prostitute as one of his close companions, which also wrote a book! i dont too many questions to ask but ill go with martin luthers stance that we all have an individual relationship with god not through the church, and remember who controls the past controls the future, who controls the present controls the past


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

How do you resolve the existence of a trinity (God, Son and Holy Spirit) in a monotheistic religion? Did God 'create' Jesus? If so, when? Are they equals? How is his divinity different, or the same as God's? Is Jesus a part or spark of God's divinity or all of it? Most Christians believe in one god containing three inseparable parts, but they also believe that the son (Jesus) had two distinct natures, human and divine. Was Jesus merely human until he was baptized and the holy spirit descended on him? or did he partake of both natures simultaneously? Mormons actually believe that the three are distinct and separate yet united in purpose, which sets them at odds with all the rest of Christianity. These perplexing questions exist in many religions, not just Christianity. The early Christian church resolves issues like this by editing out contradictions. It's reasonable that they edited text rather than expunge them entirely to bring them into orthodoxy as well. The question of Jesus' existence is unimportant to me. The texts we have that speak of him suggest to me that he existed. Whether he was a divine god/man is another question which cannot be resolved objectively. Faith and reason will always be in conflict. Many argue there is a middle way, but I do not know what that is. Rambling now. Going to walk the dog.


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> How do you resolve the existence of a trinity (God, Son and Holy Spirit) in a monotheistic religion? Did God 'create' Jesus? If so, when? Are they equals? How is his divinity different, or the same as God's? Is Jesus a part or spark of God's divinity or all of it? Most Christians believe in one god containing three inseparable parts, but they also believe that the son (Jesus) had two distinct natures, human and divine. Was Jesus merely human until he was baptized and the holy spirit descended on him? or did he partake of both natures simultaneously? Mormons actually believe that the three are distinct and separate yet united in purpose, which sets them at odds with all the rest of Christianity. These perplexing questions exist in many religions, not just Christianity. The early Christian church resolves issues like this by editing out contradictions. It's reasonable that they edited text rather than expunge them entirely to bring them into orthodoxy as well. The question of Jesus' existence is unimportant to me. The texts we have that speak of him suggest to me that he existed. Whether he was a divine god/man is another question which cannot be resolved objectively. Faith and reason will always be in conflict. Many argue there is a middle way, but I do not know what that is. Rambling now. Going to walk the dog.


I was going to bring this up and then add - guess what the only unforgivable sin is? that's right - denying the holy spirit. So the only unforgivable sin is not believing (or even doubting for an instant) the most unbelievable thing in the whole book!

So if you ever denied the holy spirit (disbelieved that Jesus rose from the dead) then, according to the bible, you are an unforgivable sinner and are heading for the toasty place!


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## twostarhotel (Mar 24, 2008)

email468 said:


> I was going to bring this up and then add - guess what the only unforgivable sin is? that's right - denying the holy spirit. So the only unforgivable sin is not believing (or even doubting for an instant) the most unbelievable thing in the whole book!
> 
> So if you ever denied the holy spirit (disbelieved that Jesus rose from the dead) then, according to the bible, you are an unforgivable sinner and are heading for the toasty place!


yeah pretty much, its sad what modern christianity has turned it into, telling everyone there going to hell for pretty much everything haha shit. did you know there are stories of a young jesus commiting murder?! having children!? i really dont know what to belive anymore but i have seen what christianity has done for some people its wierd ive seen a demon possesd lady that was weird too, i guess i cant deny a power, but my feelings on what i have been taught since i was a wee lad has definantly changed, would god really wish us to be so scared that we are going to go to hell? is that a threat? or a method used to control? what the fuck would jesus say?


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## twostarhotel (Mar 24, 2008)

dude that picture is a bit extreme


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## Strider9880 (Mar 24, 2008)

I didn't bother reading every post so sorry if this was already posted. Other than the bible the romans kept records as well, and is pretty much proven that the *MAN *jesus existed as a person. I'm not accounting the miracles and such, just he was a real man.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

Sorry, but that's not true. Please provide your source.



Strider9880 said:


> I didn't bother reading every post so sorry if this was already posted. Other than the bible the romans kept records as well, and is pretty much proven that the *MAN *jesus existed as a person. I'm not accounting the miracles and such, just he was a real man.


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

strider if you took the time to read the first post...i asked for actual historical evidence...i know there are a couple of historians that lived in or around jesus lifetime but those sources are not reputable...i want to know if there anyone has solid evidence he existed...so far...there truly is none.


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> Sorry, but that's not true. Please provide your source.


Jesus did exist and did die for nothing......Because you dont want to beleive history thats not anyones problem.. Where is your source for saying he didnt exist? How can you justify that? You cant because people have tryed and they all have come up with jesus was real and the story is real...The way people see it is them but he was real, he did die for nothing, and he did good by his people....

You are the type of person that wont beleive in big foot until you see him locked in a cage....Even though all the evidence says hes real you lack to beleive in the fellow man and thats your problem know body elses so stop takling on the subject asking for facts when you lack facts for your self...Grabbing religious shit off google doesnt count considering its google. Thats like looking on the back of a noodle package for directions on how to make brownies.....


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

SO, your proof that Jesus existed is that bigfoot is real???


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

I guess that historians all have it right too. We should believe everything we are ever told right? Why would anyone lie? People don't lie on everyday. We should just believe what people said two thousand years ago before they had the ability to say..."what a second, is this right, can i confirm this with corroborating evidence before i decide what i believe" 

Booky do you just believe everything you hear? No matter what you believe whatever everyone tells you without a single doubt. If so you're a moron. And do yourself a favor and look up the word moron...since you're not going to because you probably don't know how to look for answers yourself...i will link it for you: www.answers.com/topic/*moron**, *www.thefreedictionary.com/*moron**, *www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/*moron**.*

There that is what we call sources...i've given you 3 have a field day!


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> SO, your proof that Jesus existed is that bigfoot is real???


No but you gotta be realistic......When was the bible written? Back in a time where they didnt just right storys or fairytails because it would be considered wrong and the people that wrote it would be killed...

Time back then was egypt(spelling sorry) running the world kinda like hitler...Its proven considering all the tombs. You know all the big triangle things in the desert the jews where used as slaves to make?

Its not just the bible its history its self with some light here and some light there.......But it really happend just like the holocost.....So in a sence I would suppose people 10,000 years from now will think the holocost was made up because of how we speack today will be so much different from then.....History is the facts go get a history book....


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> I guess that historians all have it right too. We should believe everything we are ever told right? Why would anyone lie? People don't lie on everyday. We should just believe what people said two thousand years ago before they had the ability to say..."what a second, is this right, can i confirm this with corroborating evidence before i decide what i believe"
> 
> Booky do you just believe everything you hear? No matter what you believe whatever everyone tells you without a single doubt. If so you're a moron. And do yourself a favor and look up the word moron...since you're not going to because you probably don't know how to look for answers yourself...i will link it for you: www.answers.com/topic/*moron**, *www.thefreedictionary.com/*moron**, *www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/*moron**.*
> 
> There that is what we call sources...i've given you 3 have a field day!


Hey dick face.......Lets not fucking call people names when talking to them ok you fucking mooly?

Leave moron out of the equasion if you want to have a civilized talk with me cunt......

I mean really did I attack you? Fuck no!! And you just tryed to take the piss out of me? 
Damn I wonder how you talk to your mother when she disagrees with you?

I want some damn facts on how you where raised...Fuck jesus we need to save your little hatefull ass..


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> I started off with constructive post but think just became aware that its just a brady bunch of know it all stoners doing some google searches and posting there results haha
> 
> 
> keep posting



You once complimented me for stating my opinion without insulting anyone and now you turn around and state absolutely nothing in an extremely insulting manner. Why not use your much vaunted Google search to argue against what is being said rather than being a jackass?

don't keep posting. ha ha.


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

boooky said:


> Jesus did exist and did die for nothing......Because you dont want to beleive history thats not anyones problem.. Where is your source for saying he didnt exist? How can you justify that? You cant because people have tryed and they all have come up with jesus was real and the story is real...The way people see it is them but he was real, he did die for nothing, and he did good by his people....
> 
> You are the type of person that wont beleive in big foot until you see him locked in a cage....Even though all the evidence says hes real you lack to beleive in the fellow man and thats your problem know body elses so stop takling on the subject asking for facts when you lack facts for your self...Grabbing religious shit off google doesnt count considering its google. Thats like looking on the back of a noodle package for directions on how to make brownies.....


Hi boooky - it is up to the person making the claim to prove something is real. not the other way around. And yes - until we see actual proof bigfoot doesn't exist. I can't believe you compared Jesus to bigfoot - that is what atheists do!

PS - there is no evidence that he ever existed as a real man. you are the one that needs to do some research.


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

boooky said:


> No but you gotta be realistic......When was the bible written? Back in a time where they didnt just right storys or fairytails because it would be considered wrong and the people that wrote it would be killed...
> 
> Time back then was egypt(spelling sorry) running the world kinda like hitler...Its proven considering all the tombs. You know all the big triangle things in the desert the jews where used as slaves to make?
> 
> Its not just the bible its history its self with some light here and some light there.......But it really happend just like the holocost.....So in a sence I would suppose people 10,000 years from now will think the holocost was made up because of how we speack today will be so much different from then.....History is the facts go get a history book....


wow - you couldn't more wrong and you are telling him to do research? have you ever heard of the levant? Sumaria? the hittites? outside the bible, there is no evidence of Jews EVER being enslaved by the Egyptians.

The bible was written in a time that all they knew were fairy tales (or more accurately allegorical literature) - science wasn't around then.

I submit that you need to go get a history book.


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

boooky said:


> Hey dick face.......Lets not fucking call people names when talking to them ok you fucking mooly?
> 
> Leave moron out of the equasion if you want to have a civilized talk with me cunt......
> 
> ...


agreed - no reason to be insulting or resort to ad hominem - even in retort.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

boooky said:


> Jesus did exist and did die for nothing.
> 
> 
> hmmm. I believe I said I believe Jesus probably existed. Not going to address the rest of your post.


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

email i always enjoy reading your posts because you're clearly educated and i will look up those sources you gave me to continue on my journey. Everyone else that has given any helpful information I would like to thank you too. Those of you who are offended by the notion that Jesus didn't exist need to question why that offends you. I never once said that GOD didn't exist. Jesus Christ could be made up but it has nothing to do with God. Idk what God is...but i don't think it God is what Christianity claims. God is a completely different subject than Jesus.


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

email468 said:


> wow - you couldn't more wrong and you are telling him to do research? have you ever heard of the levant? Sumaria? the hittites? outside the bible, there is no evidence of Jews EVER being enslaved by the Egyptians.
> 
> The bible was written in a time that all they knew were fairy tales (or more accurately allegorical literature) - science wasn't around then.
> 
> I submit that you need to go get a history book.


I just suck at explaining it......Doesnt make me a moron though or a mormon(BWAHHA) Saying its not true is selfish though...In many different ways for one "you" dont know and niether do the people you got "opinions" off of or the people I get my "opinions" from and beleive make sence..

Arguing over this still doesnt make the point no body will ever know what happend back then or if its true or not..simply because we where not there. I mean weather they are "facts" or not what makes your source better then my mind? Considering they are both just ideas but from different people.....Nobody will ever think alike..


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> email i always enjoy reading your posts because you're clearly educated and i will look up those sources you gave me to continue on my journey. Everyone else that has given any helpful information I would like to thank you too. Those of you who are offended by the notion that Jesus didn't exist need to question why that offends you. I never once said that GOD didn't exist. Jesus Christ could be made up but it has nothing to do with God. Idk what God is...but i don't think it God is what Christianity claims. God is a completely different subject than Jesus.


You are more than welcome. I have been interested in this most of my life and have explored a lot. I don't claim to have all the answers (hell i don't even have a miniscule amount of answers) but I do like asking questions and see what really smart people have come up with in their research.

And at the end of the day, you can continue to believe in the literal interpretation by assuming any evidence that goes against what the bible says was simply planted by the devil. I am not being facetious as this is the most common response from biblical literalists.


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> email i always enjoy reading your posts because you're clearly educated and i will look up those sources you gave me to continue on my journey. Everyone else that has given any helpful information I would like to thank you too. Those of you who are offended by the notion that Jesus didn't exist need to question why that offends you. I never once said that GOD didn't exist. Jesus Christ could be made up but it has nothing to do with God. Idk what God is...but i don't think it God is what Christianity claims. God is a completely different subject than Jesus.


Nobody was offended by your thoughts on jesus.....They are yours.....But to answer your question to why I was pissed about it....Because you called me a moron and I dont care if your jesus you call me a moron for nothing then im bound to not like you....Me not liking you makes more sence then you not beleiving in jesus....


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

When was the bible written? Back in a time where they didnt just right storys or fairytails because it would be considered wrong and the people that wrote it would be killed...

I love this, who told you that they didn't write fairtails back then lmao. When did they start writing fairtales? After Jesus was born? I guess all those myths I read in grade school, the ones written by the Greeks, were written after Jesus....you know when fairytales were legalized in the Great Fairytale Council of 150 AD.

Time back then was egypt(spelling sorry) running the world kinda like hitler...Its proven considering all the tombs. You know all the big triangle things in the desert the jews where used as slaves to make?

I don't even know what your point was right here. But this makes me 

Its not just the bible its history its self with some light here and some light there do you even pay attention when you type?
......But it really happend just like the holocost.....So in a sence I would suppose people 10,000 years from now will think the holocost was made up because of how we speack today will be so much different from then.....History is the facts go get a history book... Which History book do you reccomend that I pick up...???


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

boooky said:


> I just suck at explaining it......Doesnt make me a moron though or a mormon(BWAHHA) Saying its not true is selfish though...In many different ways for one "you" dont know and niether do the people you got "opinions" off of or the people I get my "opinions" from and beleive make sence..
> 
> Arguing over this still doesnt make the point no body will ever know what happend back then or if its true or not..simply because we where not there. I mean weather they are "facts" or not what makes your source better then my mind? Considering they are both just ideas but from different people.....Nobody will ever think alike..


you are right boooky - i don't have all the answers and arguing about it seems to be getting us nowhere. The only thing I will say about evidence is there is more scientifically-sound evidence on my side of argument. But that does not mean that historians and/or archeologists couldn't find a ton of physical evidence proving Jesus existed and lived just like the bible says. It is just they haven't found it yet and not for lack of looking.

And after all, we should be looking for common ground rather than exasperate our differences 

I would never call you (or anyone) a moron - or a mormon for that matter


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

Booky I don't care if you like me. This thread like everything else in the world has a point. The point is I asked for people to give me actual evidence Jesus existed outside of the Bible. No one has given me. Not you even in your attempts or anyone else. So don't get on here and tell me Jesus died for my sins cause the Bible said so. George was curious because Curious George said so... it works both ways. You just look like a moron when you don't answer my question then post nonsense. I'm sorry for calling you a moron that was probably cause i'm not a good Christian and wasn't raised to the standards you were.


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> When was the bible written? Back in a time where they didnt just right storys or fairytails because it would be considered wrong and the people that wrote it would be killed...
> 
> I love this, who told you that they didn't write fairtails back then lmao. When did they start writing fairtales? After Jesus was born? I guess all those myths I read in grade school, the ones written by the Greeks, were written after Jesus....you know when fairytales were legalized in the Great Fairytale Council of 150 AD.
> 
> ...


You still trying to take piss out of a dry kidney?? You win dude......Hopfully your ego feels larger....I mean really....You win...I said it go find somone else to drain and degrade by making them look stupid to make you feel better in front of your crowd of jesus freaks.......

I mean whats your life story on how you became such an ass? Who brought you up to piss all over people? Dont blame jesus because you dont beleive in him...Im sure you got someone to blame....


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## boooky (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> Booky I don't care if you like me. This thread like everything else in the world has a point. The point is I asked for people to give me actual evidence Jesus existed outside of the Bible. No one has given me. Not you even in your attempts or anyone else. So don't get on here and tell me Jesus died for my sins cause the Bible said so. George was curious because Curious George said so... it works both ways. You just look like a moron when you don't answer my question then post nonsense. I'm sorry for calling you a moron that was probably cause i'm not a good Christian and wasn't raised to the standards you were.


So what you dont beleive in jesus that gives you the right to be a dick......Yeah dude you are completely fucked up in the head.... Just because your not a christian doesnt mean you can use that as an excuse for being a shitty human being....


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

I'm still trying to figure out how I managed to give offense to anybody.


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## email468 (Mar 24, 2008)

The only posts that offended me (but not to the point of complaint) were the shit-face pictures. yuck.

and the only post i meant to be offensive was a response to one of the above.

so please accept my apologies for any offense I have given and as for me, I have taken none.


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## We TaRdED (Mar 24, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> How do you resolve the existence of a trinity (God, Son and Holy Spirit) in a monotheistic religion?


whats the difference between the holy spirit and God anyways?

you hear alot about Jesus and God but not too much about the holy spirit. can anyone explain to me how these two are different.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 24, 2008)

I doubt I have offended you, email. I just forgot I was discussing religious topics on the internet. stupid me. Should have seen it coming. I'm not much of a fighter. I think I'll stick to growing forums for now!


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## We TaRdED (Mar 24, 2008)

Zeitgeist - The Movie

watch from 3mins to 40 mins

its about religion, and you dont have to read much, just watch and listen.

not trying to offend anyone, just a recent link i came across and would like to share. 
also, i dont know what to believe as far as religion goes because i believe in a God, but not necessarily the biblical one.


edit- actually you can start watching @ 9mins to skip the intro and just watch the religious part.


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## bobharvey (Mar 24, 2008)

i've seen that movie...it changed the way I look at everything...I wouldn't say that it is the truth exactly...but it's a very interesting movie and i agree i think people should take a couple hours and watch that movie....good link man


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## lickalot (Mar 24, 2008)

he's in my weed!!!


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## mexiblunt (Mar 24, 2008)

I'm starting to like the idea that we are all god, everything "living" and not "living" all things matter anti matter etc.

In the last few years i've read a few books like The Secret, The Physics Of The Soul, Laws of Attraction. I was raised christian but was in the same shoes as BobHarvey. I think jesus was a person like all of us who happened to very good at living and teaching/preaching some of the ideas in these books helping everyone to be a better god. I know there is alot more to this and I never settle myself so ask me agian in a few It will probablt be a diff answer. 

On another note. This was touched on already but I think ppl take the bible way way to litteral. Water into wine=mentally negative mood/attitude into positve mood/attitiude. Parting the red sea. translated to reed sea. a bunch of guys running from the cops duck thru the park where the cop cars/horse and chariots couldn't go. etc.


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## We TaRdED (Mar 24, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> i've seen that movie...it changed the way I look at everything...I wouldn't say that it is the truth exactly...but it's a very interesting movie and i agree i think people should take a couple hours and watch that movie....good link man


thanks

have you seen the aliens movie? 

the ring of power is a good movie too!

i linked them in my signature, if you want to watch the first part of the ring of power movie, just take the 2 off the end of the link! also very informative watches too.


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 25, 2008)

Its not the point of some 1 saying jesus is not real that bothers me ive just notice a lot of this alll over weed growing web sites people come into them with no will of talking about growing/smokingweed ....

They are just coming on to these sites to spread that your religon is fake and that it was america that did 9/11 its all muslim propaganda to divide and and destroy 
the internet is there new weapon of choice to spread this bullshit , 
Like that movie zeitgeis the people that buy into this other than them is weed smoke kids , why else at the start did they say are religon is fake when clearly that has zero to do with the subject thats before telling use it was your own people that did 9/11 
Why not start of saying ALLa was a big pot of shit and a evil faith that promotes the death of any non believer 

thats what gets me just .


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## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

here, here's some links without religion at all... just look at how ignorant the public really is 


Ring of Power - Parts 1-5 - Sprword.com

Ring of Power - Parts 6-10 - Sprword.com


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## mexiblunt (Mar 25, 2008)

I think if you do the research and click on anyone who is posting in this thread they have nearly all been yakking it up about marijuana not just religion, currently I have no grow going but a few mothers for outdoor once it gets nice. 
Maybe the mods should take out all the topics that don't pertain to growing weed, including changing the name to growitup because rolling has nothing to do with growing either.


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 25, 2008)

*good ideas there mexiblunt!!!!!!!!*


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## mexiblunt (Mar 25, 2008)

hydrotech364 said:


> *good ideas there mexiblunt!!!!!!!!*


 Actually I was being sarcastic. I like to be able to talk about anything with all my friend stoner growers and non stoner growers! Where there is a thread I don't like I don't read it, really pretty simple.


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## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

mexiblunt said:


> Actually I was being sarcastic. I like to be able to talk about anything with all my friend stoner growers and non stoner growers! Where there is a thread I don't like I don't read it, really pretty simple.


lol, as i was reading, i was thinking the same things you just posted... i was going to say "why post in a thread that you dont want to read/talk about ".

i like to talk about random stuff too. variety is the spice of life 

i love you guys  group hug, come on....


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## bobharvey (Mar 25, 2008)

shooter is an idiot i posted this thread in the right forum..it's under spirtuality/sexuality/and philosophy...


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## mexiblunt (Mar 25, 2008)

Yes. You did post in the right forum. ohhh almost forgot. HUGS FOR ALL.


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## mexiblunt (Mar 25, 2008)

Hey We tarded. I think I may watch you movie links tonite. I do kinda know what they are about but have been puttin it off, I'll probably go on a rant on rollitup after tho...maybe not?


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## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

mexiblunt said:


> Hey We tarded. I think I may watch you movie links tonite. I do kinda know what they are about but have been puttin it off, I'll probably go on a rant on rollitup after tho...maybe not?


ya, you will only be able to watch one at a time because they are rather long. 

spread the word brother. share the links with people you know. 

lol i got really pissed the when i first saw them myself, its just not right whats going on behind our backs. they should teach the real deal in history class- they omit all the juicy stuff.

all i can do is spread the word myself and hope that others will help until everyone is informed so we dont get our asses focked backwards. the implications about the future are pretty sad if things keep going the way they are.


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 25, 2008)

bobharvey said:


> shooter is an idiot i posted this thread in the right forum..it's under spirtuality/sexuality/and philosophy...


NAH MAN YOUR THE IDIOT POSTING CRAP WHO CARES IF JESUS LIVED OR NOT REALLY YOU MORON 
YOU GOT YOUR SELF A FEW POSTS UP THEN HAD NOTHING ELSE TO ADD TP THE SITE SO YOU POST OF ANOTHER QUESTION NO 1 ON THIS SITE CAN ANSWER 

GO AND WATCH THAT PROPAGANDA FILM THAT OTHER KNOBB KEEPS POSTING FOR PEOPLE TO SEE SHOULD GIVE YOU SOMTHING ELSE TO DO OTHER THAT THIS THREAD HAHA , ITS OLD NEWS EVERY 1 HAS WATCHED IT AND MADE THE VIEWS OVER A YEAR AGO 

PLESE DONT USE MY NAME IS YOUR SILLY LITTLE COLLAGE BOY THREAD AGAIN PLEASE


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## mexiblunt (Mar 25, 2008)

I don't think bob was here a year ago. So that may be new to him, I've seen the links for a year but havn't watched till today.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 25, 2008)

I don't get why you keep posting on here with all this hostility and then sign off with a ? Don't go away mad, just go away.



SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> NAH MAN YOUR THE IDIOT POSTING CRAP WHO CARES IF JESUS LIVED OR NOT REALLY YOU MORON
> YOU GOT YOUR SELF A FEW POSTS UP THEN HAD NOTHING ELSE TO ADD TP THE SITE SO YOU POST OF ANOTHER QUESTION NO 1 ON THIS SITE CAN ANSWER
> 
> GO AND WATCH THAT PROPAGANDA FILM THAT OTHER KNOBB KEEPS POSTING FOR PEOPLE TO SEE SHOULD GIVE YOU SOMTHING ELSE TO DO OTHER THAT THIS THREAD HAHA , ITS OLD NEWS EVERY 1 HAS WATCHED IT AND MADE THE VIEWS OVER A YEAR AGO
> ...


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 25, 2008)

If you notice im trying to stay out of it but some 1 keeps bringing me back in 
Like you leave me out of your silly thread thank you 

you little knobb


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## mexiblunt (Mar 25, 2008)

Don't leave yet! Wow i underestimated to power of control we have over shoot2kill, just say his name and he is at your beckoning call. This is the last post I make on this thread besides what it's about. Sorry Bob.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 25, 2008)

Someone should start a thread on anger management lol.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 25, 2008)

I'm happy to get back to the thread topic. If everyone plays nice


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## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> Someone should start a thread on anger management lol.


there is an asshole thread.... its kinda the same as anger management. take out your assholeness on there


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## shnkrmn (Mar 25, 2008)

We TaRdED said:


> there is an asshole thread.... its kinda the same as anger management. take out your assholeness on there


Who me? I've already posted enough on that thread lol.


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## We TaRdED (Mar 25, 2008)

shnkrmn said:


> Who me? I've already posted enough on that thread lol.


ohh








opps nm lol


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 25, 2008)

jesus is and was real. he died for your sins you commit daily so you can go to heaven. all you need to do is beleive that and live by it and you will live forever. i have seen miracles with my own eyes that nature alone could not do. 

heres an analogy: if there was a painting, could you say someone painted it, or it just appeared out of pure luck. it would be stupid to suggest that it appeared out of luck. and its stupid to doubt about a god existing because this earth is so much more intelligent that a painting and your still saying it came out of luck. 

check out this guy on youtube.com/venomfangx


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## Miracle Smoke (Mar 25, 2008)

Not to offend, but unless you have historical evidence that he indeed existed, then your statement remains doubtful.


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## bobharvey (Mar 26, 2008)

skate hawaii.. just because you believe Jesus existed doesn't mean he did. The topic is if there is historical evidence outside of the bible that says Jesus was real. 
So far everyone that claims he is real has only cited the Bible as their source.


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

well yeah i have no physical proof and i cant tell you what to think, but its not like theres any evidence for evolution and or the big bang.


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## bobharvey (Mar 26, 2008)

there is evidence for evolution...what the hell are you talking about?!


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

you guys have no idea how intelligent the bible is, no man could write it. if you were to read that and to understand it all, you could not disagree.


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

could u prove it?


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## bobharvey (Mar 26, 2008)

men wrote the bible too...again what the hell are you talking about?


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

well yeah they physically wrote it, but they didnt come up with it


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## bobharvey (Mar 26, 2008)

okay well the point of this is for people to give me proof he existed and you haven't done that..so thanks for trying


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

please support your answer with evolution. i really would want to know because if im wrong about that or the big bang, than i would complain to a series of videos on that which i got my information on.


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## 73hwiz (Mar 26, 2008)

I'm willing to believe Jesus was real, but the son of God, that's a stretch...actually God is a stretch. I think he was just a Jew who was pissed at the system and wanted to change it. I'd be willing to bet a lot of the details were added by later Christians to make the story more engaging.


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

73hwiz said:


> I'm willing to believe Jesus was real, but the son of God, that's a stretch...actually God is a stretch. I think he was just a Jew who was pissed at the system and wanted to change it. I'd be willing to bet a lot of the details were added by later Christians to make the story more engaging.


thats stupid. god is not a human being. jesus was, and he was gods son. god is a trinity- the father (god), the son (jesus), and the spirit (holy spirit). 

again, i have no proof for this im just saying that thats what i believe.


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

seriously please prove to me evolution was real


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## Miracle Smoke (Mar 26, 2008)

Then explain to me where the hell we came from? 

This is going to go out of hand due to ignorance......

If you would look at nature you would 
clearly understand that evolution is logical.

Specifically animals, why are there subspecies of felines, dogs, monkeys, fish and etc.

Just as there is different races of human beings.


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## boooky (Mar 26, 2008)

Miracle Smoke said:


> Then explain to me where the hell we came from?
> 
> This is going to go out of hand due to ignorance......
> 
> ...


Aliens made us....Breed us like cocker spaniels....WHY IS NOBODY LISCENING?!


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## Miracle Smoke (Mar 26, 2008)

I thought about that, really.

About the annunaki and such.

To be honest, if it were true i wouldn't be surprised.


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

no proof, its just a thought, and a theory. (but like again im not saying that i can prove that god exists)


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## trishmybiscuits (Mar 26, 2008)

Christianity has been debunked once and for all:

The final debunking of Christianity


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## email468 (Mar 26, 2008)

Skate Hawaii said:


> please support your answer with evolution. i really would want to know because if im wrong about that or the big bang, than i would complain to a series of videos on that which i got my information on.


for evidence in favor of evolution: any biology 101 book and the science of biology, genetics, paleontology, zoology - if you prefer lighter reading - just about anything by Richard Dawkins (The Blind Watchmaker is a good place to start)

for evidence in favor of "big bang" theory: any astronomy 101 book or the science of astronomy, cosmology, NASA's site, or look into Cosmic Background Radiation (CBR). 

Please note that evolution and the theory of natural selection addresses how species came into being - the theory only hints at how life began.

Also note that big bang theory addresses what happened immediately after the singularity - it does not address the cause of the singularity (that would be more like string theory).

So if you are looking for a "God of the gaps" - there is where he will exist. There is no testable, natural explanation (yet) for the origin of the big bang or the origin of life - so God can still live there.
Everything else does have a natural explanation (no god necessary) with lots of supporting evidence if you are willing to look for it.

If you prefer your information in DVD/video format (much easier to follow and understand than a book sometimes) then i can recommend:

Carl Sagan's Cosmos - it is dated but is a wealth of information and addresses some of the questions you have - and addresses some questions you may not have thought of.

The PBS Evolution series (based on Daniel Dennett's Darwin's Dangerous Idea - a great book btw) - this series is very good and has one part entitled: What About God? you may find especially enlightening.

The Planets is another great documentary but not quite on par with the above.

It is important to understand that science does not have all the answers and will happily throw out an idea or theory if it doesn't work or does not stand up to rigorous experimentation. So far the incredibly unpopular theories of big bang cosmology and evolution through natural selection has withstood the test of time and more importantly experimentation. The evidence has not shaken these much maligned theories but has bolstered them.

All it takes is one piece of observational evidence that can not fit into the evolution/big bang picture with no possibility of a natural cause to force scientists to abandon those theories - so far no evidence has done that. And with each passing year, it becomes more and more unlikely that evidence will ever appear to cause evolution and big bang theory to be abandoned.


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 26, 2008)

Evolution seems to be moving rapidly from theory to fact as more evidence comes in,but that will not change the Yahoo's minds. We have to accept that some people seem to a need for the reassurance of an external Diety. Let them alone unless they bother you.


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## email468 (Mar 26, 2008)

jimmyspaz said:


> Evolution seems to be moving rapidly from theory to fact as more evidence comes in,but that will not change the Yahoo's minds. We have to accept that some people seem to a need for the reassurance of an external Diety. Let them alone unless they bother you.


yes and no. Newton's theory was around a lot longer than Darwin's when Einstein came along. Though contrary to some belief, Einstein did not "blow away" Newton - just added to it. As scientists or science cheerleaders, I think it is important to not become as dogmatic as others. We have to be ready, willing and able to change as evidence changes. Or like I tell my "believing" friends, if you want solid answers and "facts" you better stick with faith cause science does not provide that - science merely moves in the direction of the evidence.


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 26, 2008)

Well, email, I suppose ,that in my clumsy way, that's what I was saying, not that evolution was a fact, but, that evidence continues to cohere with theory.
Peace:


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## email468 (Mar 26, 2008)

jimmyspaz said:


> Well, email, I suppose ,that in my clumsy way, that's what I was saying, not that evolution was a fact, but, that evidence continues to cohere with theory.
> Peace:


after i responded i kind of regretted saying it since i knew what you meant and agree - but since i feel like i am in somewhat "hostile" territory -- i like to be extra-careful.


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## jimmyspaz (Mar 26, 2008)

Well,fuk 'em if they can't take a joke!!


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## We TaRdED (Mar 26, 2008)

boooky said:


> Aliens made us....Breed us like cocker spaniels....WHY IS NOBODY LISCENING?!



your spelling is worse than mine... lol  i love you boooky

YouTube - U.F.O DISCLOSURE PROJECT U.FO MEETING

aliens movie^^^^^^^^^ for anyone that wants to blow their mind away. 

better yet, smoke your best shit than watch this link.... lmao


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## mexiblunt (Mar 26, 2008)

Kinda off topic but just an observation on the evolution bit. E-mail you seem to have researched a bit on this and/have alot of good sources. 
Do any of those talk about how if you look at it, evolution never gives something we need it always takes away something we don't. like the little hip or leg bones in some fish and snakes etc. This may be adaptation but ppl who loose one sense often become better or more aware of another. Like a blind person who somehow aquires better hearing to use a type of echo location to navigate.


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## Skate Hawaii (Mar 26, 2008)

okay im gonna do some searching on evolution but im so blind idk if i can concentrate.


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## Miracle Smoke (Mar 26, 2008)

Hey man, believe what you want, im not trying to change your outlook on life, unless
it is for the betterment of alot people.

Its just that this is a debate and there needs to be legitimacy thats all.


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## email468 (Mar 26, 2008)

mexiblunt said:


> Kinda off topic but just an observation on the evolution bit. E-mail you seem to have researched a bit on this and/have alot of good sources.
> Do any of those talk about how if you look at it, evolution never gives something we need it always takes away something we don't. like the little hip or leg bones in some fish and snakes etc. This may be adaptation but ppl who loose one sense often become better or more aware of another. Like a blind person who somehow aquires better hearing to use a type of echo location to navigate.


I have far from significant understanding but here is what I think..

An individual adapting to surroundings, like a blind person's hearing becoming more acute, I think is far different than the long process that causes snake and whale rear legs to become atrophied through disuse - though both are adaptations.

Evolution works on what already exists so while a snake may be sacrificing its rear legs its slithering motion seems to work for it - plus it has those cool dislocating jaws and some even have venom! Some changes may seem like a sacrifice but maybe we just can't see the benefit.

If you are interested, I recommend you watch the PBS 4-disc series Evolution. It really taught me a lot and dispelled many wrong-headed notions I had about evolution even after doing quite a bit of reading on the subject.


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## mexiblunt (Mar 26, 2008)

Cool thanks E-mail!


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## SHOOT2KILL66 (Mar 26, 2008)

How come in 2000 years or so nothing else has evolved , Should there not be fish jumping from the sea to turn into humans every were like tadpoles to frogs how come were stopped Mybe the next evolution we will grow wings


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## mexiblunt (Mar 26, 2008)

I wonder if peguins or ostriches ever flew?


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## email468 (Mar 26, 2008)

SHOOT2KILL66 said:


> How come in 2000 years or so nothing else has evolved , Should there not be fish jumping from the sea to turn into humans every were like tadpoles to frogs how come were stopped Mybe the next evolution we will grow wings


Do you really want to know or will no evidence change your mind?

If you really are interested - here is a great resource to answer your questions...
Understanding Evolution


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## shnkrmn (Mar 26, 2008)

A possible mechanism for evolution may be seen in the changing of frequency of expression of a genetic trait in response to environment over a period of time. This occurs in populations, not individuals. It has been a long time since I studied it, but I recall that one of the earliest observations of such a change in genetic expression was seen in a species of moth in England in the 19th century. This moth depended for survival on the camouflaging pattern and coloration of its wings allowing it to blend into tree bark in order to avoid being noticed by predators. In heavily industrialized parts of England,, where coal dust began to darken foliage and bark of trees, the population of such moths assumed, over time, a darker appearance as the phenotype of that moth which was darker was more successful at avoiding predators and thus was more successful at surviving to reproduce. This is an example of species adapatation. Note that this did not result in speciation, the light and dark moths were still the same species, but given enough time it was thought that the two populations might eventually become genetically differentiated enough that they would no longer breed together, leading to further differentiation and eventually an inability to interbreed; voila: two species where one was before. Because this happened in a relatively brief period of time, this is a poor example of 'evolution' but could illustrate one of the mechanisms by which one species can give rise to another.

Add in random mutation, isolation of populations such as the many species of finches which Darwin observed on the Galapagos islands and longer term forces such as the tectonic movement of continents, large scale global catastrophes such as asteroid impacts and you have a powerful recipe for diversification of life forms.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 26, 2008)

The wouldn't be penguins or ostriches if they did!



mexiblunt said:


> I wonder if peguins or ostriches ever flew?


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## mexiblunt (Mar 26, 2008)

maybe...?


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## shnkrmn (Mar 26, 2008)

Well, maybe if they evolved propellers on their noses! Nope, even then they wouldn't have enough lift from their wings.


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## mexiblunt (Mar 26, 2008)

I know that stuff. I like the prop idea. maybe they will evolve to use thier gas for rocket power, then they wont need as much lift.

But still. why the wings? I know penguins kinda "fly" under water. but I don't ostriches flying under ground.lol.


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## email468 (Mar 26, 2008)

mexiblunt said:


> I know that stuff. I like the prop idea. maybe they will evolve to use thier gas for rocket power, then they wont need as much lift.
> 
> But still. why the wings? I know penguins kinda "fly" under water. but I don't ostriches flying under ground.lol.


ostriches do use their wings to keep cool. but the feathers all wispy and even if they didn't weigh so much, ostriches still wouldn't get off the ground with those wings. They are good for regulating the bird's temperature and we don't know what else. Or I should say, I don't know what else.


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## mexiblunt (Mar 26, 2008)

Thank you.


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## shnkrmn (Mar 26, 2008)

I think ostriches use them for balance when they run too. 40 MPH. God thing they aren't man eaters.


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## mexiblunt (Mar 26, 2008)

Ok I think we are officialy starting to hijack Bobharvey thread. Ima cut it out for bit on this one. I know it's part of the evolution thing but not. Is jesus real?


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## Hydrotech364 (Mar 26, 2008)

*well lets say you jaam fifteen pounds of solid rocket fuel up a penguins ass,then shoved the penguin up the ostrich's ass,,,,lit the fuse ,,then they'd be airpooling.

better living through chemistry and high explosives
*


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