# Designing a 15000sqft facility....please help



## shawa (Mar 9, 2014)

Hello everyone, 

So this is my first time posting on rollitup so please be patient with my inexperience. So basically i'm designing a 15000 sqft mmj facility in Canada and I have a question about the veg and flowering rooms. Were planning to provide about 7 to 10 different strain of Cannabis. I am currently dealing with a mmj consultant and he has suggested that we have a 1200sqft room for each strain and use that room for both veg and flowering. His reasoning is that by doing this we will not need to move the plants around and therefore save a lot of work. I'd love to hear what you guys think.


Thanks.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 9, 2014)

I wouldn't want to move that many plants around. 

hell man, i dunno what your consultant charges but i'll charge less


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## shawa (Mar 9, 2014)

He charged 10G's actually. That's for help attained a Health Canada production license and some general grow design ideas. 

We're planning to do a hydroponics setup top drip design. I always imagined that I would have 1 large Veg room and a few Flowering rooms and then when the plants are ready Id move them into a flowering room. But then the consultant suggested Veging and flowering in the same room.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 9, 2014)

If you need to he told what to do you should just hire someone that does. Your gonna get a lot of bad advice.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 9, 2014)

The consultant is just a substitute for experience and a poor one at that.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 9, 2014)

individual rooms would also allow for easy isolation in case there were an pest infestation @ some point too. 

sure, one big veg area may be more efficient lighting/nutrient wise but moving that many plants? A lot of work bro. 

how many people are you figuring it will take to run this thing?


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## shawa (Mar 9, 2014)

Well we are planning to hire a master grower as well. Part of the licensing process is we need to have blueprints of the facility. At this stage were putting a proposal together for the license.


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## shawa (Mar 9, 2014)

Well, reaching max capacity will take time and will happen in stages. At max capacity I can see 15-20 people employed at a minimum


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 9, 2014)

shawa said:


> Well we are planning to hire a master grower as well. Part of the licensing process is we need to have blueprints of the facility. At this stage were putting a proposal together for the license.


Your master grower should be involved in planning.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 9, 2014)

with that many I'd say you would have the manpower to move stuff around. but I would try to get away with less...and less moving for an op of that size personally. 

never been involved in anything that large though...

snaps..whatcha think?


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Well were definitely going to be in the market for a top notch master grower. The facility wont be up for a min of about 8 more months. Were hoping to be able to design a facility so that we can have a Production license submission. Once we get conditional approval we would then begin construction of the warehouse and the hiring process would begin. In the mean time, we need to have a design. Its almost ready, just ironing out the details.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

in 8 months from now we will be in the market for a top notch master grower.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Remember, top notch master growers need top notch pay to perform.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm sure there will be no shortage of "top notch master grower" applicants from here on riu. 

what is the going rate for this position?


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Yes, were aware of that. Have had a lot of inquiries already. As well, the consultant is suppose to help in this process. I have a 10,000 sqft layout as we were initially planning a 10,000 sqft facility but weve now changed to a 15,000sqft. The layout will be similar to the following design...


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

you forcing everyone to shower in/out? I would.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

No not shower, but must change into work shoes that stay at work , work coat, head covering, and gloves.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I'd make em shower in anyway. People could have mites/rootaphids/ anything on their person. Especially if they garden or have done yard work that day. 

biosecurity is no joke. Especially for something of this size. 

I would think the consultant would mention this.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Yep. Shower in with lockers.

Reason, mold spores, virus.

Changing clothes might stop bugs mostly but not the mold and virus.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

BTW ; I consult for several dispensaries in Colorado. Biggest problem I have, not being listened to.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I'm disappointed. No body has answered my question yet. 

what is the going rate for a top notch master gardener?


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Well, wondering what you think about the idea of vegging and flowering in the same room and therefore having many divided up rooms vs having a large vegging room and a few flowering room. BTW this will be a hydroponic top feed operation.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Salary of a master grower really depends on how much of a "master" they are. Do they have proven success and knowledge? Have they won awards? Do they have a degree as well as experience? Their is a lot of differences from grower to grower. I would think that they spread can be anywhere between approx. 40k-100k per year


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

about what I figured


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

my take on drip feed systems is that they are a pita. Due to drippers getting clogged up and stuff. 

do you have plant count restrictions for your op?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Well expect they will end up being lazy unless you add in some profit sharing incentives.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

profit sharing works ime


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

My advice, run tables.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

No there is no plant count restrictions.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> My advice, run tables.


 exactly what I was thinking! 

on casters for ease of maintenance. It's what I do anyway and works for me. Nice too since I don't have to bend over except to unhook the drains


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Run tables? Do you mean ebb and flow or nft?


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

can you imagine running a 15k sq.ft sog? 

that would be EPIC! 

cloning would be a full time job


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

shawa said:


> No there is no plant count restrictions.


Myself, I would rock that with ebb & flow tables. No veg. Rooted clones go into flower tables directly.

Nice veg room with mothers and clones. Setup to harvest two or three tables each day.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

shawa said:


> Run tables? Do you mean ebb and flow or nft?



ebb & flow or f&d

the latter for me. with reservoirs sunk into the ground to keep cool. 

one day......this is exactly what i'ma do.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Cuttings dept is one person striking 300 cuts. Should take 4-5 hours a day.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Cuttings dept is one person striking 300 cuts. Should take 4-5 hours a day.


but then training/pruning mothers....lotta work....I know.

edit: you couldn't pay me enough to take that job


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> but then training/pruning mothers....lotta work....I know.
> 
> edit: you couldn't pay me enough to take that job


Me neither but if you have money you lack incentive.

Really I could run that veg/clone dept with three employees and that's with ability to loose one.

I could run the trimming dept with three people and a trimpro.

I could run 300 flowering tables with a crew of 5 or 6.

I would have a harvest / cleanup / reload crew of three.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I just wanna be quality control


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> I just wanna be quality control


Is that a paid position? Lol


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

of course!


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

seriously though snaps. i like the harvest a few trays everyday idea. This would spread the work out making it easier to accomplish and ensure quick turnover.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> of course!


Shit. I'm the wrong line of work. I need to redo my resume.  talk about benefits package.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

can I get some oreos and a gallon of milk with that?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

And a large pepperoni pizza with extra mushrooms.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

anyway op. what kinda medium ya gonna run in your hydro setup. 

and how many lights are you thinking of running?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

I suggest using rockwool logs for tables on a large scale. Washing hydroton adds too many man hours.

I can't believe the op's consultant recommended large plants and not a sog. The man hours involved in trees (bud support) would be extreme. In a sog with trellis you make that a non issue.

Your going to be looking at a lot of lighting and cooling & dehumidification.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Let us assume 20 working days per month. Lets say we want to harvest/reload four 4x8 trays each work day.

160 trays, 320kW flowering 100 tons of commercial chiller units and a buttload of dehumidification is going to require a massive electrical service. Even splitting the flower needs a 50 ton chiller. Note these numbers don't size any tonnage for normal building heatload, veg area.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

all sounds pretty good. Honestly, I hadn't given the number of lights much thought. but yeah, 2k per tray is what I would shoot for. 

holy shit! 50 ton chiller minimum LOL 

The biggest chiller i've ever been around was a 100 ton and we set this one on the roof of a college! lol


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

El chillarator. Lol

Can't imagine the 'hydro' bill for all that juice.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

What gets done? Well accounting for varying yields and flower times with multiple strains will do about 2.5 - 4 lbs per tray, roughly 6 times a year.

Lets average 3 lbs per tray and 2 months flower (6 harvests per tray per year)

160 x 3 x 6 = 2880 lbs/year

So dumping 2.5 - 3 million into the build will net a return in less than a year of running full strength. Expect a year of operation to get it rolling full speed.


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## jrainman (Mar 10, 2014)

Snaps good estimate ,I agree 2.5 - 3 million for something in that square foot range, but lots of unknown as far as location , don't know about Canada , but here in the US , the excavation could run a Million alone with conforming to DEP regulation ,being chemical (fertilizer) needing to bring in lots of different material for run off seepage ,building of run off ponds ect , ect . and also a nice generator system that could be run a certain percentage of the month .


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

One would want a 500kW prime power backup with adequate reserve.

One will also need ro filtration capacity at about 2000 gpd.

Costs to build and permit are a big ??? I'm also not familiar with canadian regulations. Would sure want several lawyers to sort all those details.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Well we were planning 10 grow rooms of 1200 sqft each. And each room with 50 1k lights....so in total about 500 lights of straight veg and bloom. Of course this would be when reaching max capacity. In the begining we might have 2 or 3 rooms ready to go. Once they fill we add lights to another room and so on.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

As well, Canadian regulations are a lot more clear than the US. Here it is legal. All you need is a doctor's prescription for it. With regards to growing, you need to get a license from Health Canada. To get a license you need to put together a proposal that involves the site plans, security plans, air quality plans, etc...As well, no store front is allowed in Canada. All orders are placed by mail or fax or online and all orders have to go out by secured mail.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Building permits, inspections, ibc regulations and the like. Don't forget emergency egress.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

All that is covered. Were working with an architect that has all that from the city. As well, a partner is building the warehouse from scratch. Basically, 1 of the 3 partners will be the landlord. The building will be 30000 sq feet and well have half. In the future if expansion is needed, we'll have first dibs on the 2nd half once that tenant's lease expires


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

In your rooms, fire marshall may want proper aisles for emergency egress. Plan accordingly.

Decide grow method, then system footprint will determine best layout, lighting and cooling requirements.

From experience, when plant count is not an issue, go with a sea of green using flood and drain.

That's enough free info.


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## Shaded420 (Mar 10, 2014)

I don't see the point in this....the laws in Canada are changing/have changed. 

Unless you happen to have the golden horseshoe up your bum and they've given you a permit.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Decide grow method, then system footprint will determine best layout, lighting and cooling requirements.
> 
> From experience, when plant count is not an issue, go with a sea of green using flood and drain.
> 
> That's enough free info.


that's what I was thinking..... plus a modest 1000$ donation for doing the work for the professional consultant 

edit: or at least an honorary position @ QC


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> that's what I was thinking..... plus a modest 1000$ donation for doing the work for the professional consultant
> 
> edit: or at least an honorary position @ QC


You're fun.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

thanks snaps! I try


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## kinddiesel (Mar 10, 2014)

my advice is you will fail . your going to big to fast. I would stop right now and save my self 20 grand . but if you insist then you need to hire a pro grower there very hard to find we don't put up flags or advertise. so mabe find a good grounds person. I personally would not do more then 3 rooms. 1 to clone 1 to veg and 1 to flower. if you get bugs on a few plants trust me you have bugs in every room. good luck. with this stay legal .


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

The laws in Canada changed in july 2013. They gave everyone a grace period till march 31, 2014 though. So 2 weeks from now only a licensed commercial grower can grow. Were hoping to be one of those. The info I mentioned is the new requirements


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

With the right people success will happen. Were planning to hire good people who have care and passion for this work. Believe me when I tell you their is A LOT of people dying to make career at a facility like this so I dont think it will be to hard to find the right employees


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Well I wish you luck. You will get three bad opinions for every good one. Democracy and growing don't mix, meaning too many chefs in the kitchen blah blah.

Hire your grower. Then plan your grow needs.


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## Shaded420 (Mar 10, 2014)

That would be a dream job


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## kinddiesel (Mar 10, 2014)

lol . licensed commercial grower. so are you going to have to sell each ounce at a set rate ? around 100 an ounce no they don't deal with ounces . they deal with a pound . so they will tell you basically each ounce is going to be 750 bucks each pound to the government ? I am sure that's how it is going to be . it will not even cover your electric bills. this grow is intended for green house growers . I would not set a warehouse up to sell to the government . they can low ball you at any price they want . and have inspections any time they want, tax the fuck out of you . I personally would do a black market small scale grows all over before I dumped 20 to 30 k in cash into some thing that will more then likely wont work out . this is how this shit works out. only guys that will make money are growers out side in fields if it don't frost and green house grows . if you can set it up were you get goo sun, Canada from my understanding is horrible for growing out side . save your money. while your ahead


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

kinddiesel said:


> lol . licensed commercial grower. so are you going to have to sell each ounce at a set rate ? around 100 an ounce no they don't deal with ounces . they deal with a pound . so they will tell you basically each ounce is going to be 750 bucks each pound to the government ? I am sure that's how it is going to be . it will not even cover your electric bills. this grow is intended for green house growers . I would not set a warehouse up to sell to the government . they can low ball you at any price they want . and have inspections any time they want, tax the fuck out of you . I personally would do a black market small scale grows all over before I dumped 20 to 30 k in cash into some thing that will more then likely wont work out . this is how this shit works out. only guys that will make money are growers out side in fields if it don't frost and green house grows . if you can set it up were you get goo sun, Canada from my understanding is horrible for growing out side . save your money. while your ahead


20-30k won't even cover the medium/containers and trays for an op of this scale


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

kinddiesel said:


> lol . licensed commercial grower. so are you going to have to sell each ounce at a set rate ? around 100 an ounce no they don't deal with ounces . they deal with a pound . so they will tell you basically each ounce is going to be 750 bucks each pound to the government ? I am sure that's how it is going to be . it will not even cover your electric bills. this grow is intended for green house growers . I would not set a warehouse up to sell to the government . they can low ball you at any price they want . and have inspections any time they want, tax the fuck out of you . I personally would do a black market small scale grows all over before I dumped 20 to 30 k in cash into some thing that will more then likely wont work out . this is how this shit works out. only guys that will make money are growers out side in fields if it don't frost and green house grows . if you can set it up were you get goo sun, Canada from my understanding is horrible for growing out side . save your money. while your ahead


I disagree.

Were grossing over 2 million at 750 x 2880. Electrical maybe 750k / year at commercial rates.

Adding in other costs your making money even at $750/pack.

Where do we get the 750 figure, is this realistic? I am asking as I don't know.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Your info kinddiesel is incorrect. We set our own prices. Government wants nothing to do with that as stated by the reg. As well, outdoor grows arent even allowed, everything has to be indoors in a industrial style building. Basically, a patient goes to their doctor and gets a prescription for a certain amount of grams a day. They forward the prescription to us and we mail the meds out to the patient. Health canada is not part of that process. All they do is make sure that the facility is licensed, clean, safe, tracable (incase of a recall on product) etc.


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## Lo Budget (Mar 10, 2014)

If you've only got two weeks to pull this plan together and submit it for a license... 

Listen to Snaps and Joe - they know their shit. You need a master grower. They should have been aboard from day one. I don't want to sound too harsh but the fact that you're soliciting advice on internet forums leads me to believe you're in over your head. That's Ok. It's not a knock against you it just means you'd better find a qualified master grower pronto. I don't think you have enough time to put it all together on your own. I wish you only the very best of luck. Godspeed!


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

30 x 40 rooms? I would do 4 rows of 4x32 ft table. 32kW lighting. My reason, employees need room to move. This allows aisles for them to access the rows of table from both sides. The tables are static. Size reservoir properly and run the right mix and you can run it for 60 day cycle with just addbacks. Minimum of 20 gallon of reservoir for each foot of 4 foot wide table. If harvesting / loading one 32 foot row on same day then put it on one reservoir. Less reservoirs the easier to maintain.


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## m3d1c1n3man (Mar 10, 2014)

have you ever actually grown anything or just the consultant has? 

Personally, without prior experience, I tend to start small and work my way up. Avoid disasters that way. And learn how it works. Then when you do it on a large scale, you know how to do it right.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Lo Budget said:


> If you've only got two weeks to pull this plan together and submit it for a license...
> 
> Listen to Snaps and Joe - they know their shit. You need a master grower. They should have been aboard from day one. I don't want to sound too harsh but the fact that you're soliciting advice on internet forums leads me to believe you're in over your head. That's Ok. It's not a knock against you it just means you'd better find a qualified master grower pronto. I don't think you have enough time to put it all together on your own. I wish you only the very best of luck. Godspeed!



Actually, their is no time limit. You can submit your application anytime. And things don't have to be constructed to apply. It is only a proposal. Once you get conditional approval, this is when you can start to build. Once your done building, Health Canada would send an inspector to verify that you've built things the way you proposed in the application that they conditionally approved. If that is the case, they would then grant you the license and you can begin growing. As well, we are planning to hire a qualified master grower. I don't act like I know everything. I believe that you need to put to put "aces in their places". I have ran many successful business, not because I knew everything, because I knew to hire the right people for the right job. This is what makes good management.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

Lo Budget said:


> Listen to Snaps and Joe - they know their shit. You need a master grower. They should have been aboard from day one. I don't want to sound too harsh but the fact that you're soliciting advice on internet forums leads me to believe you're in over your head. That's Ok. It's not a knock against you it just means you'd better find a qualified master grower pronto. I don't think you have enough time to put it all together on your own. I wish you only the very best of luck. Godspeed!


thanks man, but i'll be the first to admit there are a lot of things I can still learn...even after a decade. Those who think they have seen it all are the ones to watch out for. 

I do know a bit about setup and design though. and what works/worked or hasn't....for me anyway. 

and I agree about the over your head statement. The logistics alone for an op of this size would be difficult for the most experienced grower imo.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Basically we have to have a design for our application. I posted a design which would be similar to the finished design which the architect is currently working on. Once the design is complete, we will be having a security company and HVAC company add details to the design on security and air quality aspects. At that point we would be ready for city approval. Once they grant approval we would then be ready to submit to Health Canada. This aspect then takes about 3 months for conditional approval. Once this is granted, we are clear and free to start building a team to help run the facility. 

Consultant has suggested using a software company called Triqsoft. Everything would run on tablets. Employees would how up for a shift and grab a tablet. Then they would log in and the tablet would tell them their duties for that shift and they would document their work on the tablet as they go. Seems like a really cool system. They have some videos on their website showing the program.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

http://www.triqsystems.com/


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Or a copy of microsoft office and a competent master grower. Tablets? that's really not required imho.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

For a grow this size, as well as to be compliant with Health Canada, everything has to be documented and traceable. You have to have a system like this to be honest. Microsoft office is good for a resume. I'm going to assume that was a joke.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

You need to be able to tract every plant from seed to finished product. In case of a recall, you need to be able to trace every gram back to its batch, to its motherplant and you need to be able to trace every plant that was in contact with it. Their is a lot more involved than a spellcheck


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

As well, everything has to be connected in Real Time to your website so that strains are made available and unavailable automatically. Patients need to be able to have access to your product and see their order history automatically. As well, you want to be able to watch and manage some of your operation remotely if you ever need to be absent. Were trying to make this state of the art.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

I was mainly referring to Excel and Access.

I get the feeling you work for this software company.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

lol....Snaps your funny. I assure you I don't. But again, Microsoft Office???? Sorry you might know how to grow, but your definitely lost in the operations/managerial aspect. No offence.


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## Shaded420 (Mar 10, 2014)

We use Excel and Access to maintain databases for Alberta Health Services....why would that be unacceptable to your small ass operation? No offense.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

No "we" don't shaded. I am from Alberta my friend. Anyways, I would prefer a system that is tailored to Cannabis operations from seed to sale. If you don't see a benefit in that then that's your opinion and I respect that, but I definitely disagree.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

As well, shaded, just fyi I currently work for the provincial government, and we not running the province on Microsoft Office...


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Sorry. I thought this was about production. I'm not into over managing things. For starters you'll need an IT guy.

I get you need tracking and inventory but im saying there are cheaper ways imho. Never get locked into some big software contract if you can avoid it. I have a manufacturing background and I watched as400 software suck money out of the company while creating headaches for IT dept.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Totally agree Snaps...heard shady things about Quantem9 who provides software for this stuff....


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## Shaded420 (Mar 10, 2014)

shawa said:


> No "we" don't shaded. I am from Alberta my friend. Anyways, I would prefer a system that is tailored to Cannabis operations from seed to sale. If you don't see a benefit in that then that's your opinion and I respect that, but I definitely disagree.


I work at a Hospital in Alberta, for Alberta Health Services....as an IT technical analyst. Please do not pretend to know or not know what programs _*we*_ do or do not use for databases.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Shaded420 said:


> I work at a Hospital in Alberta, for Alberta Health Services....as an IT technical analyst. Please do not pretend to know or not know what programs _*we*_ do or do not use for databases.


SHaded, are you trying to convince me that Alberta Health Services does not have its own program that it uses to run our heathcare services??


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## Shaded420 (Mar 10, 2014)

shawa said:


> SHaded, are you trying to convince me that Alberta Health Services does not have its own program that it uses to run our heathcare services??


No, what I am *telling* you is that AHS has over 2500 proprietary programs to run our healthcare services - some of which are built, and based off of Excel and Access databases.

Anyways, this is way off topic...GL with your grow facility


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## Red1966 (Mar 10, 2014)

shawa said:


> Hello everyone, So this is my first time posting on rollitup so please be patient with my inexperience. So basically i'm designing a 15000 sqft mmj facility in Canada and I have a question about the veg and flowering rooms. Were planning to provide about 7 to 10 different strain of Cannabis. I am currently dealing with a mmj consultant and he has suggested that we have a 1200sqft room for each strain and use that room for both veg and flowering. His reasoning is that by doing this we will not need to move the plants around and therefore save a lot of work. I'd love to hear what you guys think. Thanks.


 Veg and flower require different light cycles. How you going to do that when you have them in same room? My advise is to hire a better consultant.


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## Red1966 (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Remember, top notch master growers need top notch pay to perform.


 You can get a top notch grower for peanuts. Too many eager applicants and too few positions.


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## Red1966 (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> I'm sure there will be no shortage of "top notch master grower" applicants from here on riu.  what is the going rate for this position?


 At least half the people here would do it just for bragging rights i.e. nothing.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

lol...there aren't' that many "top notch master growers" here red 

and I doubt those that are would run a 500k room for free. 

come to think of it...with all the headaches the op is talking about with paperwork and tracking and the other 

100k$ doesn't sound like enough either. With a 100% profit sharing incentive yes.


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## Red1966 (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> I'm disappointed. No body has answered my question yet. what is the going rate for a top notch master gardener?


 Skilled farmers make 50-60k a year, tops, unless they own the operation. Farm hands get minimum wage, less if you provide room and board. There are more pot growers than regular farmers. The skill is too common to pay much.


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## Red1966 (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Well expect they will end up being lazy unless you add in some profit sharing incentives.


 How about they fire your lazy ass. Is that incentive?


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

Red1966 said:


> How about they fire your lazy ass. Is that incentive?



lol....I like you red..You're kind of a dick....like me

you aren't afraid to say whats on your mind....like me

sometimes you are right.....like me

sometimes you are wrong....like me

you are very jaded on many life issues.....like me

although there are many things we don't agree on...you crack me up

I think I could drink a beer with you man


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## Red1966 (Mar 10, 2014)

Whenever I drink, I get arrested. Not sure why that is. So I quit drinking 30 years ago. Smoking doesn't have that effect on me. P.S. I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.....lol..


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Red1966 said:


> Veg and flower require different light cycles. How you going to do that when you have them in same room? My advise is to hire a better consultant.


Well basically, he suggested that we have many isolated grow rooms. So you would veg one strain in that room and when its time for flowering, you convert that room into flowering mode. That way you do the veg to harvest without moving plants.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

Well paperwork and tracking and all the admin stuff would be done by someone else, not the grower. Grower's job would strictly be to oversee the growing from seed to harvest. Of course he would have a team working with him. He would over see all the growing, including nutrients, pest control etc..


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## jwb1979 (Mar 10, 2014)

Why not have one veg room that you cut clones from and then do several massive sog or Scrog? That way it is perpetual. Cut the clones then once rooted veg them for 3-6 weeks then flip the switch. Then repeat.


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## Red1966 (Mar 10, 2014)

shawa said:


> Well basically, he suggested that we have many isolated grow rooms. So you would veg one strain in that room and when its time for flowering, you convert that room into flowering mode. That way you do the veg to harvest without moving plants.


 OK, that's what I would do, too. If you're using electronic ballasts, all you would have to do is change the bulbs and reset the timers. I would suggest ebb & flow, top drip has inherent reliability problems. Damn drippers are always moving around or getting clogged.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> lol...there aren't' that many "top notch master growers" here red
> 
> and I doubt those that are would run a 500k room for free.
> 
> ...


I agree. As a business owner you get what you pay for.

Truly very few master growers indeed.

Anyone that would work for peanuts is desperate and thus almost couldn't be a master anything.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

Red1966 said:


> Whenever I drink, I get arrested. Not sure why that is. So I quit drinking 30 years ago. Smoking doesn't have that effect on me. P.S. I may not always be right, but I'm never wrong.....lol..


alright a smoke then..not much of a drinker either. 

and I thought I was wrong once....turns out I was mistaken


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I agree. As a business owner you get what you pay for.
> 
> Truly very few master growers indeed.
> 
> Anyone that would work for peanuts is desperate and thus almost couldn't be a master anything.



how to vet someone like that is what I'm wondering... I mean awards and degrees and references aside...what a risk to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> how to vet someone like that is what I'm wondering... I mean awards and degrees and references aside...what a risk to put all your eggs in one basket so to speak.


That's what networking is for. Lol

I agree. As a consultant I see way more fails at growing. One mmc out here never had a harvest in almost 2 years due to bad grower. Pm got them. Mites got them. Stupidity got them (left door open to flower room). Combine that with an assload of bag seed and all they ever harvested was seeds. Now their closed up. 70/30 rule.. they bought all their nug from other mmc's in the springs.

The BEST growers are like I was. They are living in states where it's illegal and they aren't getting recognized (except awards given by law enforcement)

Only after moving to Colorado did I come out of my cave.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

good god damn point.

only someone without an unlimited budget can really grow into this bus...imo. 

I knew a guy once who thought he could throw money @ every problem in a grow. He came around eventually and finally understands this doesn't work most times.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

No substitute for experience with success.

Thing is, OP's consultant is not very experienced imho. Suggesting 50kw in a 1200 sqft room doesn't account for ability to move around a little. Very important. What if you have employees working and there is a fire and you need to evacuate. You need clear paths. I am not feeling trees too, the labor required to support all those branches would be off the charts. Drip rigs plug up. I mean really, does his consultant have any experience being successful at large scale? I believe if so the aforementioned issues would be known to him.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I agree..most of those didn't make sense to me either. But what do I know? I'm no master gardener...if I were I probably wouldn't be on here  

or maybe I would I dunno. 

all that sounds like waaaay to much work...especially if there is no plant count limit. 

I mean not only the work factor but what if god forbid there were some sort of bio breech. Pm or bugs or the like...

or what if a timer malfunctioned?or a watering pump went down and went unnoticed somehow? I mean the time invested in large plants just doesn't pay if there are no plant count limits...imo.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Red1966 said:


> How about they fire your lazy ass. Is that incentive?


Let me put it this way. You own a grow. You like profit.

Say you offer the grower 50k/yr & 2% of the gross.

Now based on my conservative estimate of 2880 lbs a year being based on 1.5 lbs per light (I do 2).

Lets assume your grower likes money. If he puts out 2 lbs per light, your 2880 lbs/yr just became 3840. Now giving up a mere 2% to motivate your grower is smart huh?


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> No substitute for experience with success.
> 
> Thing is, OP's consultant is not very experienced imho. Suggesting 50kw in a 1200 sqft room doesn't account for ability to move around a little. Very important. What if you have employees working and there is a fire and you need to evacuate. You need clear paths. I am not feeling trees too, the labor required to support all those branches would be off the charts. Drip rigs plug up. I mean really, does his consultant have any experience being successful at large scale? I believe if so the aforementioned issues would be known to him.


Well 50kw based on 1kw covering 16sqft is 800sq feet. That leaves 400 sq ft for spacing everything out in that room. Were leaving 25% of the room for clear paths between plants. As well, the type of hydroponics is no final. This is something that the grower will have input on. Were only creating the blueprint for the building.


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## shawa (Mar 10, 2014)

As well, monetary incentives for the master grower for good production is on the books. That is something I were in agreement with.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

My point is the building should incorporate a lot. If using tables I want my reservoirs in the cement floor with inground plumbing. Just one example of why your putting the cart before the horse imho.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> . If using tables I want my reservoirs in the cement floor with inground plumbing..


that's what I would want. 

how would you connect the table drains to the floor stubs? 

the best thing I came up with was fernco fittings. They are a little flexible to allow slight adjustment if needed and cheap enough. and easy to unhook.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Table drain connection is non existent just gravity. The flood fitting pump connect is 3/4" tubing. One large master pump and reservoir for a 32'x4' tray row.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

you misunderstand me. 

for fill lines i'd use sch80 unions to disconnect for a f&D system. 

but for the drains?? I use bulkhead fittings in my trays with a male adapter screwed into both top with holes drilled in for drainage and bottom with fernco fitt's to attach to the pipes stubbed from floor returning to res. With large drains I don't have to worry about them getting plugged or a tray overflowing somehow either. 

also having a large 2" drain with a bulkhead fitting allows me to drain a full tray in a matter of minutes which pulls any errant leaves or root matter to the end where it can be cleaned up. all I have to do is unscrew the top male adapter and she siphons out fast. 1 1/2" would be plenty I know. 

another benefit I see to large drain and fill lines is the ability to flood and drain FAST. leaving less soak time allowing for more frequent floods. 

what am I missing here snaps?

edit: you have to be able to unhook everything to split the trays and do maintenance


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

The tray sits above reservoir. Overflow fitting needs no stub, gravity does the trick. The feed is a barbed stub with 3/4" flex tube going to the barb on the flood/drain fitting. When pump cycle ends the trays drain back through pump. One set of fittings every 8 feet.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

I got ya now. See I was thinking about having a totally separate water room so all nute levels could be checked even when lights are out. also all res would be closer to any water filtration and such. making for easier changes to my way of thinking. 

it would entail substantially more plumbing and more shit in the way ie an extra drain line though. 

thoughts?

edit: never mind....I got it....draining back through the pump eh??? 

have to chew on this one for a bit


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Here is an above ground example of a 4x8 160 gallon.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Reservoirs get water topped off via solenoid controlled float valve again underground fed from pressurized ro feed.

Nutes and ph down can be brought in the same way through in ground dosing pump feeds.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

so you put aisles in between your 4x8's? i'd want them scooted together for maximum lighting efficiency...but this would make it a bigger pita for maintenance 

for me lighting efficiency and cross lighting comes first...

for a 500kw grow.. ease of maintenance would probably take precedence. 

you've given me some things to think about snaps....thank you


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

dosing pumps...kinda forgot about those. Do they adjust automatically for ph fluctuations??? I suppose so eh?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> so you put aisles in between your 4x8's? i'd want them scooted together for maximum lighting efficiency...but this would make it a bigger pita for maintenance
> 
> for me lighting efficiency and cross lighting comes first...
> 
> ...


Having aisles allows you to push trays off to the side and access reservoir underneath for cleaning between cycles.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

i can see that. i'd still like to have a water room I think.

the whole dosing pump idea though......hmmmm this kinda changes that...and makes it more automated....LIKE THIS!

do they need calibrated and maintenanced often?

i had a 3 in 1 continuous monitor and wasn't happy with it. It was a cheapo though....


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

The water room is ro filtration and storage with feeds to points of use.

Tanks are harder to clean between cycles than low profile reservoirs that can be mopped and hosed down their drain.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Dosing pumps need to be sized right and don't use cheap controllers. Good to integrate a overrun limit sensor as probes fail and cause pump to run wild, a second limit sensor to cutoff pump and setoff alarm is best imho.

Calibration once weekly is advised for pH and bimonthly for ec.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 10, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> The water room is ro filtration and storage with feeds to points of use.
> 
> Tanks are harder to clean between cycles than low profile reservoirs that can be mopped and hosed down their drain.


not a fan of in room low pro res... they get too warm imo. 

thanks for the tips snaps.

i've got a lot MORE to think about.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 10, 2014)

Water temps aren't a big deal since flood n drain systems are getting air most of the time. Ivd never had root rott in flood n drain.


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## m3d1c1n3man (Mar 11, 2014)

I'll take your lack of a response to my question as an explicit "No, I have never grown marijuana before in my life, but I plan on successfully running a million-dollar marijuana growing operation."


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## shawa (Mar 11, 2014)

I have not grown cannabis before m3d, and i'm not planning to be in charge of the growing either. I think ive been pretty clear on that point.


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## shawa (Mar 11, 2014)

I've been blessed with the ability to secure the needed capital from some close associates and I have a lot of managerial experience. Most large scale grows are run by a board made up of a group of individuals. Part of that team includes growers. Other roles are legal, lab, admin, sales, accounting, compliance. ...our team will have an experienced master grower to over see the grow aspect as well as other growers. As well many support staff to help him like bud trimmers and tenders. I'm hoping to also learn what I can through our grower.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

Are you prepared for the costs of cooling this large of a grow? 

500kW of light means a lot of heat. 100 tons was mentioned earlier. And I would like to mention why that is way off. 

500kW of light means somewhere in the neighborhood of 500kW of heat. Add the heat from ballasts and you are looking at nearly 600kW of heat. Best to be on the safe side and assume 200W of heat to the ballast. I've seen some that put out 175W of heat, and some as low as 100W. This is a ballast efficiency thing. They range from 94% on the high side down to 80% of the low side. But, good luck getting good data sheets on most of these ballasts to tell you what it really is. Anyway, 600kW of heat.
1w = 3.412 btu/hr. 
600kW of heat = 2,047,200BTU/h. 
12,000BTU/hr = 1 ton of cooling. 
2,047,200BTU/h = 170.6 tons. 
Add the heat of the summer to that as well as the rest of the building. +20 tons maybe. Depends on the insulating characteristics of the building. +10 tons at a minimum.
Add redundancy to that. Do you really want your cooling system to suddenly be way undersized in the event of a failure? 88F and 90% relative humidity is a very bad thing for the plants. 77F and 40% RH is a reasonable temperature to run. We are talking about a very valuable crop here. Redundancy in very important. +25% at a minimum. 

As high as 225 tons of cooling. 

Most general contractors you talk to will say ~$2500/ton installed. $575K is a possibility.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

I would assume all ballast be remotely operated mr. One post 

and he is in canada...not the tropics..You know this right?


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

It's still in the facility is it not? So it still makes heat.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

I may not have many posts but I work as a mechanical engineer in HVAC. I've done a few larger facilities(not 500kW, but still significant), and this seems to be overlooked a little bit. Sticker shock hits a lot of people on just the cooling systems.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

I don't know about this many ballast but I think I would just actively exhaust my mechanical area. 

roof fans will move a lot of air and heat


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> I may not have many posts but I work as a mechanical engineer in HVAC. I've done a few larger facilities(not 500kW, but still significant), and this seems to be overlooked a little bit. Sticker shock hits a lot of people on just the cooling systems.


Fair enough. welcome then.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

His plans don't even have a mechanical room.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

I guess I just assumed there would be.

I would have one for all relays timers ballast and anything else.

he did say that diagram wasn't accurate.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

On top of that, running the cords for all the ballasts back to a central location is nice in theory. But, running them beyond 50 feet and you start to lose reliability in firing the bulb. I've heard some people say no longer than 6 feet, but that's crap. 25 feet or so is more common for what I've seen. These rooms looked like they were 65 or 85 feet long. It's hard to read his plans. At 65 feet, you'd be looking at a minimum of a 120 feet cord length for your longest run to a room on the other side of the building.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> His plans don't even have a mechanical room.


The OP is managerial, has investors, admittedly knows nothing about growing on any scale.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> On top of that, running the cords for all the ballasts back to a central location is nice in theory. But, running them beyond 50 feet and you start to lose reliability in firing the bulb. I've heard some people say no longer than 6 feet, but that's crap. 25 feet or so is more common for what I've seen. These rooms looked like they were 65 or 85 feet long. It's hard to read his plans. At 65 feet, you'd be looking at a minimum of a 120 feet cord length for your longest run to a room on the other side of the building.


Your preaching to the choir.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Your preaching to the choir.


Maybe, but it's probably best he learn the little things.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

Anyway, Shawa, if you'd like my recommendations for cooling a place like this, PM me. If anyone else wants my recommendations, I'll post it here.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

lol. you don't have pms  

so post away. IF we don't like what you say you'll be sure to hear it  

and if you are who you say you are...there should be no problems


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

To be frank, the OP has as big a chance making a 500kW grow that is putting out top shelf as I would have opening the next Boeing with investors and no industry background or experience.

Sad indeed. I would throw us a party if I had a hundo for every dispensary I've watched turn over bad growers thinking each was going to be their saviour.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

lol, a forum with no PMs? or am I just too young of an account?

*My recommendations are water cooled mini-split A/C.* Stay away from traditional A/C that pulls in a significant amount of outside air. 

Lets start at explaining exactly what water cooled mini-split A/C is. You have a standard A/C condensing unit hooked up directly to a heat exchanger. Shell and tube or brazed plate are the most common, with brazed plate being the most efficient. The company that invented them, Alfa Laval, makes the best and most reliable ones in my opinion. Refrigerant goes through one side and a water/glycol mix goes through the other. Why water/glycol? So it doesn't freeze in the winter. The water/glycol is pumped to and from a large reservoir(typically 5gal/ton). 225 tons means 1000-1500gals in your reservoir. Then water is pumped from that reservoir to individual fan coil units in the grow room. These are air-water heat exchangers. In this case, I would expect as many as 50. Fan coil units don't come in large sizes. 5 tons is the largest I've dealt with personally. Typical water/glycol temperatures are 42F-48F in the reservoir. The colder the water, the more efficient your fan coil units will be, but, you need more condensing units to make that happen. 

*Okay, that's how it works. But why this again? What makes it so special? *
Well, compared to traditional mini-split A/C, you don't have to run copper. Which is really expensive to install. The water/glycol runs through PVC or ABS pipe. These installations are 20-40% the cost of copper and take half the time. Plus, you only need a plumber to install it, which are typically cheaper than HVAC techs. Also, no ducting. Ducting is large, bulky, and a pain in the ass to deal with. On top of that, ducting doesn't seal the room. 

Since I assume you are going to be using some kind of CO2 generation or CO2 flooding of the room, pulling outside air is not an option. Especially if you are running a 500kw facility. The only way to get more than maybe 50% of the use of those lights is to have active CO2 generation that keeps things around 1500-1900ppm of CO2. Outside air is ~400ppm for reference. Therefore, non-minisplit systems are now out of the question. 


Now, you might want to use a vented light. Which makes traditional A/C a little more attractive. Now, you'd just have to use a fan to drive the air in the winter. Well, one thing you can get with water cooled mini-split systems are what are called *dry coolers*. Which simply run the water/glycol through an air-water heat exchanger that has a fan on it. So, now you can get your water/glycol down to outside temperatures, of say, -20F in the winter. Doing this now means your fan coil units inside can run much less often. As I said before, they become more efficient as the water/glycol temperature drops. When it's this cold, your condensing units do not need to run, which will reduce your cooling costs by around 90%. On top of all that, bringing in -20F air to your room is not good for your plants. Not in any way. I should note, your fan coil units will not run at max capacity when the incoming water temp is that low.

The last thing you can get with a water cooled system are cooling towers. If it's not 100% RH all the time outside, you can use cooling towers, which use water, drain to waste, and evaporate it to bring your water/glycol mix down to the wet bulb, or dew point. So, when it's 40-80% RH outside in the winter, cooling towers will reduce your cooling costs by 90% or so like dry coolers. They are cheaper than dry coolers on a per ton of cooling basis, but do not work in areas of high humidity.

Right, we've gotten to relative humidity(RH) now. A water cooled mini split system can dehumidify a room as it cools. All incarnations of traditional A/C do NOT dehumidify. You need additional equipment to do that.

Now, with all these benefits, you'd think it is more expensive to get this kind of system installed, and you'd actually be wrong. Often times water cooled A/C is cheaper to install as well as cheaper to run.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

How is that not a chiller like joe and I discussed earlier? Did I miss something?

I do like the cooling tower idea.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> How is that not a chiller like joe and I discussed earlier? Did I miss something?
> 
> I do like the cooling tower idea.


I may have just skimmed that post. It's probably quite similar or in fact the same.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> Right, we've gotten to relative humidity(RH) now. A water cooled mini split system can dehumidify a room as it cools. All incarnations of traditional A/C do NOT dehumidify. You need additional equipment to do that.
> .


hmmm. so the hundreds of a/c's and I have installed that regularly drip water from their evaporator drains aren't dehumidifying? 


now I'm not a mech engineer. Just a lowly installer with several years of hvac schooling and over 5 in the field under my belt but 
air conditioners dehumidifying air is pretty common knowledge. 

water cooled systems may do a better job but standard evaps do pretty well too. 

or am I misreading your post somehow?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

To use cooling for sole means of dehu would require room being over cooled.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> To use cooling for sole means of dehu would require room being over cooled.


I never said solely. He sounded like regular minisplits don't dehumidify at all. 

THis is patently false.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

In a tuned sealed CO2 grow you'll need to pull 5 gallons per kilowatt of light. I know from experience.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> I never said solely. He sounded like regular minisplits don't dehumidify at all.
> 
> THis is patently false.


Not you, MrBlah. Unless he edited again.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> hmmm. so the hundreds of a/c's and I have installed that regularly drip water from their evaporator drains aren't dehumidifying?
> 
> 
> now I'm not a mech engineer. Just a lowly installer with several years of hvac schooling and over 5 in the field under my belt but
> ...



I don't think you misread it, I may have just miscommunicated the idea I was trying to get across. Like over exaggerating a concept. Sometimes I hyperbole a little and it bites me in the ass. This is one of those times.

Traditional A/C that pulls in outside air will not drop RH down to where you need it. 60F and 100% RH doesn't do you much good. 
Minisplit can. 

But, when the lights are off and you don't need cooling, all incarnations of A/C will not dehumidify, because they will not run. The fan coil units you use in water chilled systems can have heaters installed on them so you can run the fan coil to dehumidify without lowering the temperature of the room. Basically, think running a 1ton AC with a 1 ton heater at the same time.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

A real dehu has evap and condenser in same room.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> In a tuned sealed CO2 grow you'll need to pull 5 gallons per kilowatt of light. I know from experience.


5 gallons per what period of time?

What you need to pull from dehumidification should be more closely related to the amount of water you use to water the plants with.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> A real dehu has evap and condenser in same room.


Yes, they do. It is also extra equipment. So, added cost.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> 5 gallons per what period of time?
> 
> What you need to pull from dehumidification should be more closely related to the amount of water you use to water the plants with.


5 gal / day / kw


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> I don't think you misread it, I may have just miscommunicated the idea I was trying to get across. Like over exaggerating a concept. Sometimes I hyperbole a little and it bites me in the ass. This is one of those times.
> 
> Traditional A/C that pulls in outside air will not drop RH down to where you need it. 60F and 100% RH doesn't do you much good.
> Minisplit can.
> ...


ok, now I get you...agreed.


MisterBlah said:


> The fan coil units you use in water chilled systems can have heaters installed on them so you can run the fan coil to dehumidify without lowering the temperature of the room. Basically, think running a 1ton AC with a 1 ton heater at the same time.


this is interesting. I don't know much about water cooling honestly. I've never worked with many of these systems. It is something i'm looking into for future endeavors. 

I know water cooling is far more efficient than standard condenser/evap ac systems.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

The ratio of dehumidification required to cooling required leans towards dehu even with lights on.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> 5 gal / day / kw



pretty close to what I see


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

Why would I want a ton of heating on a ton of dehu when putting evap and condenser in same place works. Sorry im sticking with traditional dehumidification.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> ok, now I get you...agreed.
> 
> 
> this is interesting. I don't know much about water cooling honestly. I've never worked with many of these systems. It is something i'm looking into for future endeavors.
> ...


I typically don't bring up the fact that water chilled systems are more effective simply because it is so hard to put actual numbers to it. But, I know all the salesman will tell you it is more efficient. 




SnapsProvolone said:


> The ratio of dehumidification required to cooling required leans towards dehu even with lights on.


Typically, I see properly sized systems installed with about 30% of the fan coil units fitted with heaters to dehumidify with the lights off. That's not my responsibility though, but we haven't had any complaints.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Why would I want a ton of heating on a ton of dehu when putting evap and condenser in same place works. Sorry im sticking with traditional dehumidification.



you know I think your advice is spot on snaps and I respect you a bunch. But water cooling is more efficient. And the guy makes a good point about extra equipment. 

Standard dehumidifiers Put TONS of heat off anyway. It would be more efficient to run one main compressor outside on the chiller than run a bunch of little compressors inside on individual dehumidifiers...which all end up failing sooner or later. 

I've replaced two in the last year after only a couple of years use.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Why would I want a ton of heating on a ton of dehu when putting evap and condenser in same place works. Sorry im sticking with traditional dehumidification.


It depends on how you design the system. The heat kit you put on these fan coil units only runs with lights off, it costs less than traditional dehumidifiers, and your drain is already hooked up and ready to go at install. It's not something you do after the installation. So, if you are using a traditional dehumidifier, you will probably stick with that. As, well, less extra stuff to buy.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> I typically don't bring up the fact that water chilled systems are more effective simply because it is so hard to put actual numbers to it. But, I know all the salesman will tell you it is more efficient.


the mech. engineer I used to work with always said this. 

he was also my professor @ school. 

one of the smartest guys i've ever met.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

I'd like to add that for every 1 ton of cooling, it's a general rule of thumb that you are putting off 1.25 tons of heat.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

I dunno. I will have to defer on that.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

I've seen a shit ton of Phoenix 200's in warehouses. Probably not as efefficient but if one goes down you roll out another without need for a mega expensive backup.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

I'll add one more thing before hitting the sack.

No thermodynamic process is 100% efficient. The refrigeration process generates around 25% more heat than it does cooling. That actual number depends on the compressor, heat exchanger, etc. Basically, just depends on the design of the unit.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I've seen a shit ton of Phoenix 200's in warehouses. Probably not as efefficient but if one goes down you roll out another without need for a mega expensive backup.


851 watts means ~2900btu/h or 1/4 ton of cooling.

The fan coils I see are 1ton - 3ton when made for dehumidification. And they also cost 1/2 as much as that. Also they don't require emptying.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I've seen a shit ton of Phoenix 200's in warehouses. Probably not as efefficient but if one goes down you roll out another without need for a mega expensive backup.


I don't see how there would need to be any backups with water cooled air handlers and heat strips. 

I think when he was referring to backup it was for general cooling capability. If i read it correctly. 

I am tired though and could be wrong.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> I'll add one more thing before hitting the sack.
> 
> No thermodynamic process is 100% efficient. The refrigeration process generates around 25% more heat than it does cooling. That actual number depends on the compressor, heat exchanger, etc. Basically, just depends on the design of the unit.



sounds right. 

and in a system where that extra 25% heat load is outdoors instead of in...the savings add up fast.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> I don't see how there would need to be any backups with water cooled air handlers and heat strips.
> 
> I think when he was referring to backup it was for general cooling capability. If i read it correctly.
> 
> I am tired though and could be wrong.


Backup would be the entire cooling system? I dunno, we usually put two fan coils made for dehumidification in a larger room.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

Cool. If you think it's the way to go I'm game.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

So we are pulling 2500 gallons a day and cooling half the time at say 150 tons with 500kW?


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

well from what I learned in school water cooling is more efficient. 

like I said I am not that experienced in it at all. I've helped install a couple of very large chillers but as too the design and layout...that's beyond me. 

jrainman on the other hand would be a great person to have in on this covo. 

I'll see if I can't drag him in


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

What do you think would be the ratio of kilowatt hours used in lighting to kilowatt hours used for hvac?


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> So we are pulling 2500 gallons a day and cooling half the time at say 150 tons with 500kW?


Something like that. I can't say exactly how much water you will be pulling down because all our fan coil units are hooked up to a drain, so I never measure it. As for how much you are cooling with the lights off, I can't say I can give you a concrete number on that either. The thermostats turn the chillers and the fan coils on and off when need be. 

All I do it size it for worse case scenario and then add redundancy to cover any failures.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

The OP is getting a better value from our conversation than his $10k consultant imo.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> What do you think would be the ratio of kilowatt hours used in lighting to kilowatt hours used for hvac?


When your HVAC is operating at design load, you will be using around 30% on HVAC and 70% on lighting.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> Something like that. I can't say exactly how much water you will be pulling down because all our fan coil units are hooked up to a drain, so I never measure it. As for how much you are cooling with the lights off, I can't say I can give you a concrete number on that either. The thermostats turn the chillers and the fan coils on and off when need be.
> 
> All I do it size it for worse case scenario and then add redundancy to cover any failures.


Ligjts go off, heat load drops and cooling isn't required. Maybe need heat. How do you get dehu without cooling?


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> The OP is getting a better value from our conversation than his $10k consultant imo.


lol, probably. I doubt his consultant knows much about HVAC.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> The OP is getting a better value from our conversation than his $10k consultant imo.


lmfao! true very true. we better get some care packages via air mail or something for our contributions 




*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to SnapsProvolone again.



*


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Ligjts go off, heat load drops and cooling isn't required. Maybe need heat. How do you get dehu without cooling?



the heat strips on the air handlers. and at this point they are acting just like dehumidifiers. They will put a bit of heat off maybe but no more than a standard portable if sized correctly. 

correct mr. blah?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> When your HVAC is operating at design load, you will be using around 30% on HVAC and 70% on lighting.


That's good. I find I get about 33/67 with normal mini splits.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> the heat strips on the air handlers. and at this point they are acting just like dehumidifiers. They will put a bit of heat off maybe but no more than a standard portable if sized correctly.
> 
> correct mr. blah?


He said thermostat runs compressor.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Ligjts go off, heat load drops and cooling isn't required. Maybe need heat. How do you get dehu without cooling?


So, the fan coils with the heater built in are run off a humidistat. So, they can turn on regardless the temperature.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> lol, probably. I doubt his consultant knows much about HVAC.


Or growing imho.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> He said thermostat runs compressor.


hmmm, you'd need a dual tstat/humidistat then I would think


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> the heat strips on the air handlers. and at this point they are acting just like dehumidifiers. They will put a bit of heat off maybe but no more than a standard portable if sized correctly.
> 
> correct mr. blah?


A portable dehu will put off 25% more heat. We size the heaters to the size of the fan coils so it do not raise or lower the temperature of the room when the dehumidification is occuring.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> So, the fan coils with the heater built in are run off a humidistat. So, they can turn on regardless the temperature.


My point is dehu at night is still as big an issue as day. Your going to need to pull 1 - 1.5 gallons per kw hid just at night.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> My point is dehu at night is still as big an issue as day. Your going to need to pull 1 - 1.5 gallons per kw hid just at night.


You are correct.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

I suppose as long as dark humidity doesn't spike and temps don't flatline it's all good.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> A portable dehu will put off 25% more heat. We size the heaters to the size of the fan coils so it do not raise or lower the temperature of the room when the dehumidification is occuring.


right...makes sense


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

I like this guy. We made his life miserable and he hung with us.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

lol. You didn't make my life miserable. Retarded installers that don't read the directions make my life miserable.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

But that story is for another day. I must sleep.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> That's good. I find I get about 33/67 with normal mini splits.


interesting figures here. i should check this to see where I am at....how to measure it over a 12 hr period though? I do have an old electric meter I could wire in I guess....kind of a pita though.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I like this guy. We made his life miserable and he hung with us.


me too. I repped him and accepted his friend request. Which I NEVER do for new members. It's obvious he knows his stuff. 


MisterBlah said:


> lol. You didn't make my life miserable. Retarded installers that don't read the directions make my life miserable.


I rarely had to call in for help....I kinda miss the trade sometimes. 

get some sleep man. we'll be here tomorrow


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

Ive actually metered out my usage pretty tight. I even have a permanent meter stuck on my 125a subpanel feed for the grow. As an electrician I have meters. Even have a three phase digital meter. I live for tools, dabs and pussy.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

Don't need to do that. Use a current clamp on the wires out of your panel that go to the lights when they are on, or just count the lights, their wattage, and the ballast wattage. Then do the same with your HVAC equipment when it is running at max capacity, or just grab the numbers off your fans and compressors. Note the voltage it all runs at with your multimeter. Power = Voltage*Current. This will give you an indication of the max % of power that is used to run the cooling system.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

It doesn't account for ac running at varying levels.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

I've noticed variable draw on inverter minis.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> Don't need to do that. Use a current clamp on the wires out of your panel that go to the lights when they are on, or just count the lights, their wattage, and the ballast wattage. Then do the same with your HVAC equipment when it is running at max capacity, or just grab the numbers off your fans and compressors. Note the voltage it all runs at with your multimeter. Power = Voltage*Current. This will give you an indication of the max % of power that is used to run the cooling system.


right I understand all that. but the minisplit ramps up and down and sometimes shuts off so that variable would need to be metered to get an accurate measurement. 

I mean i'm not gonna sit there for twelve hours counting the minutes and tracking amps and stuff


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> It doesn't account for ac running at varying levels.





SnapsProvolone said:


> I've noticed variable draw on inverter minis.


right^^

what he said


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I've noticed variable draw on inverter minis.



sure sometimes my three ton pulls only 1.5 amps per leg and it ramps up to 17+ at others


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

so what do you guys think magnetic or digital ballasts? 

500 of em?.... jesus christ....kinda hard to fathom really.

edit: i'm gonna say digital. The electric savings from this alone would pay one trimmers salary.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

Lumatek no fan model. Low failure rate. That's where I would be.

About 5 years in and the magnetics would become a replacement issue. Lumateks if not overheated seem to last forever. Just avoid the cheap fan model with shitty heatsink. Crappy fan that will die is obviously cheaper than a few extra pounds of aluminum.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 12, 2014)

yep. really like the lumateks. I almost bought a solis tek a while back. but figured I'd stick with what is tried and true.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

I always put a tvss on my service to protect all my digital ballasts, controllers, and the like.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

Honestly, I'd run LEDs. Dropping your electricity costs for lighting by 20-30% is huge. With a setup like this, I would expect about $30,000 per month in electricity just to run the lights. $6000-9000 less pays for your grower, and a trimmer or three. Are they expensive? Well, sure. Are they worth it? Uh, yeah. 12 year lifespans instead of 6-12month lifespans for bulbs and 5 year for ballasts. And considering this is Canada where it is federally legal and, lets be honest, that isn't going to change, paying attention to long term pay offs in terms of electricity savings is an important thing to do.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

And to add to that, using LEDs basically means you only need 600-800W(depending no who you talk to) where you would otherwise have 1000W. This is primarily because of the spectral efficiency. No wasted light. Now, when running these LEDs, you are now using 20-30% less cooling as well. So, you save on that part of the initial installation and on the reduced electricity costs associated with it.


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## jrainman (Mar 12, 2014)

Mister Blah , Has your architect finished , Did you higher a project management company to take bids from all the subcontractors that are actively seeking to bid on your project ,have they set a schedule to keep the project on time, Someone is going to have to keep the schedule and know how to schedule each trade in to perform there work so the project it self does not fall off schedule and cost you lots of money ,I am sure there will be plenty of revisions on the plans concerning each trade ,if your architectural drawing are done have the mechanical drawing been done and also has your communication company submitted there drawings to the electrical contractor., I say this because you said wanted to go hi tech , have you entertained the thought of Geothermal for your HVAC being you are interested in using chillers. since you want to go high tech / Green is the way to go on todays projects in my opinion.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> And to add to that, using LEDs basically means you only need 600-800W(depending no who you talk to) where you would otherwise have 1000W. This is primarily because of the spectral efficiency. No wasted light. Now, when running these LEDs, you are now using 20-30% less cooling as well. So, you save on that part of the initial installation and on the reduced electricity costs associated with it.


Surely you jest. Loose a large percentage of production capacity to save a relatively small amount of power cost?


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

jrainman said:


> Mister Blah , Has your architect finished , Did you higher a project management company to take bids from all the subcontractors that are actively seeking to bid on your project ,have they set a schedule to keep the project on time, Someone is going to have to keep the schedule and know how to schedule each trade in to perform there work so the project it self does not fall off schedule and cost you lots of money ,I am sure there will be plenty of revisions on the plans concerning each trade ,if your architectural drawing are done have the mechanical drawing been done and also has your communication company submitted there drawings to the electrical contractor., I say this because you said wanted to go hi tech , have you entertained the thought of Geothermal for your HVAC being you are interested in using chillers. since you want to go high tech / Green is the way to go on todays projects in my opinion.


This isn't my project. I was suggesting water chilled AC to Shawa, the OP. Also, I might recommend a list format for what you wrote. Easier to read. This isn't my first rodeo either. I've been in on the build out of multiple large grows, and am working on a few right now. I know every step of the process. And I'll stick to HVAC, thank you.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Surely you jest. Loose a large percentage of production capacity to save a relatively small amount of power cost?


What LEDs have you been running that are making you lose so much production? Surely some total piece of shit ones that didn't have any good engineering or research behind them.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

MisterBlah said:


> What LEDs have you been running that are making you lose so much production? Surely some total piece of shit ones that didn't have any good engineering or research behind them.


What LED's are you using that give hps comparable results in yield per sq ft vs. time? I know of none.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> What LED's are you using that give hps comparable results in yield per sq ft vs. time? I know of none.


Albeit over priced in my personally opinion, the Illumitex Neosol and Eclipse fixtures.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

I would not recommend LED as a primary lighting system. I have not used those LED's however I don't believe LED technology is there yet. Getting closer but not there yet.

It remains my assertion that going with LED for energy savings would cost yield.

Lets go with my 320 lights flowering. 1kW HPS with average performance would give us 2880 lbs/yr. Now if we lose just one percent it's 28.8 pounds. From my experience the losses will be much greater than one percent. So even if we save money on utilities we drop so much output that its a no go imho.

Soneone proves me wrong well ok but I've not seen any LED lighting that will be able to outrun a HPS in a side by side with all other things equal.

I do a hair over 2 lbs. per 1kW HPS, every 60 days with no veg. If an LED can do that on less energy I will buy me some.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 12, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I would not recommend LED as a primary lighting system. I have not used those LED's however I don't believe LED technology is there yet. Getting closer but not there yet.
> 
> It remains my assertion that going with LED for energy savings would cost yield.
> 
> ...


Then be on the lookout over the next year.


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## kinddiesel (Mar 12, 2014)

if your plan on using nothing but led a total joke for a ware house grow ha ha ha lmfao. then why not use a solar panel to run all the equipment ? just plug the lights into the wall for a second and shut it off because it will charge the solar panel and it will continue to run, free electric . lol if this guys actually posting on here for advice then he is just talking . only if I knew what they are paying a pound ????? he does not know yet . I have a great idea it will be 800 or less a pound of dry weed . those led will not give the yield of those power full 1000 watt hps open hoods you will have to run in that warehouse . so are you planning on using ac total joke as well . instead of venting the entire grow out side with massive fans . I bet you were planning on cool tubes in a ware house total garbage in your situation . I bet 1000 bucks this guy never gets the approval to grow and the money to put it together . he does not know whose palms to grease to get the papers finished . it will never open and if it does will be out of business with in a month because of working capital problems know as no money .


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

kinddiesel said:


> if your plan on using nothing but led a total joke for a ware house grow ha ha ha lmfao. then why not use a solar panel to run all the equipment ? just plug the lights into the wall for a second and shut it off because it will charge the solar panel and it will continue to run, free electric . lol if this guys actually posting on here for advice then he is just talking . only if I knew what they are paying a pound ????? he does not know yet . I have a great idea it will be 800 or less a pound of dry weed . those led will not give the yield of those power full 1000 watt hps open hoods you will have to run in that warehouse . so are you planning on using ac total joke as well . instead of venting the entire grow out side with massive fans . I bet you were planning on cool tubes in a ware house total garbage in your situation . I bet 1000 bucks this guy never gets the approval to grow and the money to put it together . he does not know whose palms to grease to get the papers finished . it will never open and if it does will be out of business with in a month because of working capital problems know as no money .


In order to vent to outside as you say, outside air would need to be cool. If it's a hot day your fucked. Secondly if it's bitter cold outside then you won't vent enough to remove humidity.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 12, 2014)

Not to mention yield hit due to inability to run CO2 would more than outweigh energy savings.


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## wrinkles88 (Mar 13, 2014)

Where has the OP gone? I am interested in what becomes of this.

On a side note, how many posts do I need before I can PM?


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## joe macclennan (Mar 13, 2014)

I don't think he ever planned on sticking around. He was just here to pick our brains for some bullet points to bring up to his consultant and such. 

If he is even real.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 13, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> I don't think he ever planned on sticking around. He was just here to pick our brains for some bullet points to bring up to his consultant and such.
> 
> If he is even real.


Yep. Methinks probably a hoax but a fun mental exercise either way.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Mar 13, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> individual rooms would also allow for easy isolation in case there were an pest infestation @ some point too.
> 
> sure, one big veg area may be more efficient lighting/nutrient wise but moving that many plants? A lot of work bro.
> 
> how many people are you figuring it will take to run this thing?


you can certainly produce more bud per year if you dont veg in the same room as flower, but you do have the added work of moving plants, but only if you dont engineer it(most places throw the fat girls on wheels). Most places do around 4-6 plants per light, to keep up with production, it doesnt make sense to veg less ,monster sized plants because they need to veg 2 months or more depending on strain. It would be easiest to do one plant per light and veg it for 3 months, its the most productive to do a Sea of green and literally have 16-36 plants per light flowered after just a week of veg. The good middle ground for 15k (around 100 lights?)sq ft is probably around 4-6 plants per light vegged for about a month. But most certainly you will see at least 30% more yield per light per year. You are already going to need a 24/7 vegroom for your mothers and clones anyway...


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## shawa (Mar 13, 2014)

Hey guys, no I'm still around. Just got busy with some unexpected work stuff. But you totally lost me on the hvac stuff.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 13, 2014)

The HVAC solution is all about efficiency. If you have the funds to go full frog at this then you might see a long term return on the additional investment in water cooled or geothermal due to energy savings. Depends on implementation and maintenance cost differences.


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## JointOperation (Mar 14, 2014)

ya i would have hired a grower before a consultant.. especially if u want to provide quality meds.. thats a big setup either way you do it . so if ur going to help. id atleast hire 1 grower.. and ontop of that.. take his advice as to how to allow the best quality and quanity and to make it less work.. hydro is great.. but i would do COCO. u can reuse coco.. just cut out the rootball.. hit with cannazyme and BOOM.. plant a clone and go again.. works great.. and u can top feed coco. it likes to be kept moist.. and u get better taste n smell then hydro, with the yields and fast growth of hydro.. coco is great.. i run coco and soilless atm . but i wana go straight coco.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> The HVAC solution is all about efficiency. If you have the funds to go full frog at this then you might see a long term return on the additional investment in water cooled or geothermal due to energy savings. Depends on implementation and maintenance cost differences.


right, I would think an op of this scale would want to save their pennies in every way. digital ballast, high efficiency equipment r50+ insulation...the works. 

those pennies add up long term. And I would think this would be relatively long term. I mean who would invest 2 million in something that will run for only 5 years?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 14, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> right, I would think an op of this scale would want to save their pennies in every way. digital ballast, high efficiency equipment r50+ insulation...the works.
> 
> those pennies add up long term. And I would think this would be relatively long term. I mean who would invest 2 million in something that will run for only 5 years?


Agreed. It's just a matter of how many years of savings it takes to offset cost increase.

I think it's brilliant. However OP mentioned scaling the build up and not doing it all at once, leading me to believe the funds aren't in the cards.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 14, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Agreed. It's just a matter of how many years of savings it takes to offset cost increase.
> 
> I think it's brilliant. However OP mentioned scaling the build up and not doing it all at once, leading me to believe the funds aren't in the cards.


not a bad idea for many reasons. funds being one of them. 

and as that mechanical and lighting are the two largest and most expensive components of a grow, going cheap would be telling as to intent and competence though imo.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 14, 2014)

I've always been from the school of complete build then grow pot.

If they have the money and the market then why wait? Finish the build then scale up use as needed.


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## shawa (Mar 14, 2014)

Funds are available for a complete build. Land has been purchased already and 30000sqft industrial warehouse build is beginning in 4-6 months. Thats about 3-4 mil of an investment already made by the investors. Only reason I said that were thinking of staging the grow is because of health Canada licensing process. This can take about 8 more months. As well at that point it might take some time to build the clientele to reach anywhere near full capacity. Basically a client with a prescription has the choice of who to use for their meds from the list of licensed producers from Health Canada. If they choose your company then the prescription is good for 1 year and we would mail out the meds once per month. As well by staging the grow, it would give us an opportunity to tweak what we discover in the beginning, if needed, when we expand into the rest of the space.


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## shawa (Mar 14, 2014)

Currently in talks with a guy from GGS Structures Inc., a hydroponics company out of Ontario. Supposedly they have a lot of experience in large commercial grows. Still preliminary talk though. When the facility drawings are complete their suppose to put together a proposal and cost estimate of a custom system for our space. From what he's mentioned there systems are fully automated with many back up features and full control remotely if needed.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 14, 2014)

So not 500 kW?

Joe, what do you recommend for climate control solution? I know oversizing a traditional unit is generally asking for freeze ups. Maybe a chiller for each flowering room?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 14, 2014)

shawa said:


> Currently in talks with a guy from GGS Structures Inc., a hydroponics company out of Ontario. Supposedly they have a lot of experience in large commercial grows. Still preliminary talk though. When the facility drawings are complete their suppose to put together a proposal and cost estimate of a custom system for our space. From what he's mentioned there systems are fully automated with many back up features and full control remotely if needed.


Smart. I would seriously have bet they're going to propose a sog of some sort.


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## shawa (Mar 14, 2014)

I know hiring a master grower ideally should of happened by now but the problem with this is that because of health Canada regs, things take a while. I've been on this since July 2013. As well, to get conditional approval we only need to have a proposal made. The building does not have to even be built, let a lone any equipment being purchased. So if we get conditional approval, at that point we can now hire a master grower because the build out would only then begin. 

If our proposal was initially based on a certain hydro style, we would be able to change it, if the grower wanted, without affecting the Health Canada License. Health Canada pre approval is based on the structure of the building, security, air quality, security clearance of individuals involved, trackability system, SOP's.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 14, 2014)

Just saying sog because all their website images for marijuana production rooms have tables setup for a sog.


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## Deusracing (Mar 14, 2014)

Hell Id come up there and design it for you


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## itsmehigh (Mar 14, 2014)

I have designed a 6000sf under the MMAR, and a 16000sf, 36000sf, and currently designing a 100,000sf facility! Under the MMPR. All with top drip recirculating systems. From your drawing I can say you are missing a lot. IE. Electrical room, secure(level 4) waste storage, decontamination room, space for res's, multiple drying rooms, harvest room, ect, ect. You absolutely need the grower to be involved with the design. Let me know if you need any guidance with the design or locating a master grower, I am committed and bound by a contract currently but I have a partner in Alberta who would be an obvious choice to help you. [email protected]

cheers Itsme.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 15, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> So not 500 kW?
> 
> Joe, what do you recommend for climate control solution? I know oversizing a traditional unit is generally asking for freeze ups. Maybe a chiller for each flowering room?


psssh! sizing and equipment advice is waaay over my head on a project of this size...not afraid to admit it.

I wouldn't even know where to start. I do think I would go with some sort of water cooled or possibly even try to incorporate some sort of geothermal loops or something as you mentioned. Costs for a geo setup of this size may be prohibitive though. I dunno. I would strive for maximum efficiency though I think
curious to see what mr. blah has to say on it.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 15, 2014)

I would say whatever system is specified should be able to control 50 - 500 kW load and anywhere in between based on a scalable grow.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 15, 2014)

yeah, I liked blahs idea on redundancy....sorta.THe thing is those big commercial cooling towers and chillers run for years and years and years if installed properly...I just don't know about doubling cooling capacity.... easily 30% larger maybe to plan for the 100 year heat wave which is bound to happen if you don't plan for it. 

I dunno...Maybe several smaller cooling towers and units? Or one mid sized unit for each room if op goes with smaller rooms. 

in fact if co2 were ran i think each room having it's own unit would be necessary come to think of it


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 15, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> yeah, I liked blahs idea on redundancy....sorta.THe thing is those big commercial cooling towers and chillers run for years and years and years if installed properly...I just don't know about doubling cooling capacity.... easily 30% larger maybe to plan for the 100 year heat wave which is bound to happen if you don't plan for it.
> 
> I dunno...Maybe several smaller cooling towers and units? Or one mid sized unit for each room if op goes with smaller rooms.
> 
> in fact if co2 were ran i think each room having it's own unit would be necessary come to think of it


I thought the plan was each room had it's own air handler off the main chiller coolant feed so CO2 should not exchange.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 15, 2014)

yeah that's right.. forgot


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## MisterBlah (Mar 16, 2014)

There were a few points brought up that I'll address.

In regards to over-sizing a system: With most water cooled air conditioning systems, over-sizing is never an issue. Your air handlers run on thermostats in the room, and never bring in outside air. So, when the temperature drops below, say 75F, it shuts off. When it shuts off, there is no heat transferred back into the water/glycol that is constantly running through the system. That is, when an air handler shuts off, there is still fluid flow through it. This will also go back to the temperature of the reservoir, which controls the chillers. I've seen some systems that run a quite simple design of staggered temperature chiller operation. That is, one chiller turns on at 44F, one at 45F, one at 46F, etc. The same time of things is common to see in typical A/C condensers with multiple compressors in them. That concept is something any system will have and it is designed to only use what is necessary. 




SnapsProvolone said:


> I thought the plan was each room had it's own air handler off the main chiller coolant feed so CO2 should not exchange.


Each room will likely have multiple fan coil units which act as your air handler in the room. Some of these will be set for dehumidification, so this is correct. 

In regards to cooling towers/dry coolers: It works better in dryer climates, so it depends on where in Canada. But, for reference, an 10 ton cooling tower runs maybe $2,000. A 10 ton water chiller from Hydro Innovations runs $8k retail. A 10 ton Trane condenser will run about $5-7k depending on the model. A 10 ton dry cooler(likely just the coil from a 10 ton condenser), will run maybe $4-5k? 


Assuming 45F is a set point of your reservoir:
The dry cooler will use ZERO electricity, but only works when the temperature outside is below 45F.
The cooling tower works when ever the WET BULB(dew point) temperature is below 45F(ambient temp is above this point), but uses 5% the power of a chiller of the same size.
The water chiller will work down to about 0F, even with low pressure kits installed. Most normal A/C Condensing units stop running at around 30 of 40F. 

So, in order to do it right, you need to have condensing unit(the water chiller) AND dry coolers. Cooling towers are optional in my opinion, but should be used if efficiency is the name of the game.


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## shawa (Mar 23, 2014)

Hi guys, so just for a quick update: we have a total of 8200 square feet of space dedicated strictly to "grow area". We have a different room for motherplants and propogation. The 8200sqft is strictly for veg/flowering. We want to organize this is a way so that we can have approx. 8-10 different strains of indica's, Sativa's, and blends. Any advice on how to separate/organize the grow area? How to divide it up?


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## joe macclennan (Mar 26, 2014)

killemsoftly said:


> Blah Blah Blah and some very immature useless drivel....


the nerve of some people is right

this was a perfectly good thread till you showed up and start spreading your cheer 

newb


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 26, 2014)

Instead of "learning how to roll" killemsoftly should be listed as "learning how to troll"...


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## jrainman (Mar 26, 2014)

Gona get up on my soap box and give you my .2cents , As far a mechanical equipment goes , In my 35 yr plus experience in the building trade.

I would opt for Mammoth and liebert , chillers are chillers most all have good solid rep,

but my rooftops would be mammoth , and my Veg and flower room would be liebert hands down nothing more efficient and reliable , Nothing would even come close to a liebert in the flower rooms ,they were not designed for a grow facility, But when you look at what they were designed for nothing out there comes close to matching environmental needs. as far as temp and humidity control. and reliable like nothing else out there. Oh and Mammoth is Canadian built and efficiency is there strong point and again reliable . good luck though with your build


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

This is the best thread I have read in a long time! Shawa, thank you for starting this thread and also providing the company name GGS. Snap, Joe, MisterBlah, thank you all so much for all of your insight, you guys are truly awesome. I feel blessed to have been able to read all of this, gotta love this forum!

I am actually in somewhat of the same situation as Shawa, except that I have been growing since the 80's. I am in Las Vegas, which in case you haven't heard is about to allow dispensaries and cultivation facilities. It has been a lifelong dream of mine to operate a large grow facility, but have only ever managed small personal grows. Always with great success, but never on the scale of what you all are discussing here. I now have the financial backing to make this happen, but my knowledge and experience obviously are of the small variety. You all have really given some priceless information over the last 26 pages, and have given me a bit more confidence that with hard work, dedication and the realization that even with all my small grow experience, I really don't know shit...lol, if I put my mind to it this and accept that I am going to need a lot of guidance to be successful, this dream can be a reality.

Snap, out of curiosity how much would a consultant like yourself charge? Is a company like GGS somewhat of the norm for successful operations? Are there companies like this in the US that you would recommend? It seems if you can hire one company to take care of every aspect of the setup it would be much more beneficial than hiring out individual contractors. 

BTW, when I can send and receive PM's, if you guys are ever in Vegas the beers and buds are on me


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

you need 50 posts I think to be able to send pms.


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> you need 50 posts I think to be able to send pms.


I'll probably get there in no time with this endeavor most likely on the horizon.



DapperDon said:


> I have to say I agree. These forums are getting more and more polluted by people with these fantasy grow ops that NEVER take off. After reading this thread as a business owner myself, I have to ask if this person has the capital and connections to get a "government license" to grow. Why is he here asking for help? I hate to say it, but it isn't like this forum is actually the greatest to be asking for help from the ground up on a multi-million dollar operation. I call shenanigans on the truth behind it until I SEE proof otherwise. Is the thread good? It has made for some fun fiction and yarn spinning, but my money is on this is another dreamer.


I can't speak for Shawa, but I can tell you I am very serious about this. For someone in my position this thread was very much needed. Obviously it hasn't given me all the answers I am looking for, but it is a damn good start.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> I have to say I agree. These forums are getting more and more polluted by people with these fantasy grow ops that NEVER take off. After reading this thread as a business owner myself, I have to ask if this person has the capital and connections to get a "government license" to grow. Why is he here asking for help? I hate to say it, but it isn't like this forum is actually the greatest to be asking for help from the ground up on a multi-million dollar operation. I call shenanigans on the truth behind it until I SEE proof otherwise. Is the thread good? It has made for some fun fiction and yarn spinning, but my money is on this is another dreamer.


may indeed be you are correct. 

but, It is entirely plausible the guy is just getting bullet points to grill his chosen grower/designer/contractors etc.etc. on


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

Las Vegas still has a lot of issues to be ironed out before they start accepting applications for dispensaries and cultivation facilities. As it stands now they will allow a cultivation facility to have no more than 99 mature plants per month. What would be the optimal square footage for a facility be to produce that amount every month? I also agree the a SOG grow is the way to go here, vegging plants makes no sense to me at all. Straight from clone to flower IMHO with a space dedicated to mothers and clones seems to be by far the best way to go. So, with a grow of that size would it be fair to say you should expect to produce approx 37-40 lbs per month? 4-6 plants per light, 18 1000 watt HPS, 1 gram per watt, 18,000 grams per month=40 lbs. Like I've said, I've only ever been a small time grower so please forgive me if these calculations are totally ignorant. I don't mind at all being called a n00b or an idiot, just would like some input from those of you with experience with large grows like this.

Also, I know in Colorado they allow dispensaries and cultivation facilities in the same building, Vegas is going a different route. They want the dispensaries in shopping centers which are easily accessible to the public, and all grow facilities must be in warehouses in industrial areas. They will allow an owner to operate both, but the application process is highly scrutinized for dispensaries and they are only allowing 10 as of now. Chances of getting that license are slim. I want to own both, and will be applying for both licenses, but just for arguments sake let's say I only am permitted a cultivation license. What should I expect to get per lb if I am selling to the dispensaries? As of right now I have 3 excellent pheno's ready to go, best of them being an outstanding strain of Super Lemon Haze. The other two are White Berry and Super Skunk.


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## rtmike (Mar 27, 2014)

Yeah, I just joined the site after reading this whole thread.

Good readin' for the eyes!


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

kushman1369 said:


> Las Vegas still has a lot of issues to be ironed out before they start accepting applications for dispensaries and cultivation facilities. As it stands now they will allow a cultivation facility to have no more than 99 mature plants per month. What would be the optimal square footage for a facility be to produce that amount every month? I also agree the a SOG grow is the way to go here, vegging plants makes no sense to me at all. Straight from clone to flower IMHO with a space dedicated to mothers and clones seems to be by far the best way to go. So, with a grow of that size would it be fair to say you should expect to produce approx 37-40 lbs per month? 4-6 plants per light, 18 1000 watt HPS, 1 gram per watt, 18,000 grams per month=40 lbs. Like I've said, I've only ever been a small time grower so please forgive me if these calculations are totally ignorant. I don't mind at all being called a n00b or an idiot, just would like some input from those of you with experience with large grows like this.
> 
> Also, I know in Colorado they allow dispensaries and cultivation facilities in the same building, Vegas is going a different route. They want the dispensaries in shopping centers which are easily accessible to the public, and all grow facilities must be in warehouses in industrial areas. They will allow an owner to operate both, but the application process is highly scrutinized for dispensaries and they are only allowing 10 as of now. Chances of getting that license are slim. I want to own both, and will be applying for both licenses, but just for arguments sake let's say I only am permitted a cultivation license. What should I expect to get per lb if I am selling to the dispensaries? As of right now I have 3 excellent pheno's ready to go, best of them being an outstanding strain of Super Lemon Haze. The other two are White Berry and Super Skunk.


SOG grows are best suited to operations regulated by canopy square footage limitations. With your count limits one should be growing trees. A hundred plants in a noveg sog would be something like 3 lbs when harvested (plus or minus).

Wholesale up here is around $2000/lb between licensed producers and mmc's.


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> SOG grows are best suited to operations regulated by canopy square footage limitations. With your count limits one should be growing trees. A hundred plants in a noveg sog would be something like 3 lbs when harvested (plus or minus).
> 
> Wholesale up here is around $2000/lb between licensed producers and mmc's.


Thank you very much for the response, extremely appreciated. So, this changes things drastically then. 3lbs is definitely not paying the rent...lol. I need a dedicated veg room(s) and flowering room(s) then and obv the more space the better. What would you recommend as far as a ballpark figure on square footage for the entire facility? Do successful operations that are limited to 99 plants mostly go with soil grows and hand feeding?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

I recommend RDWC to my plant count clients.

You limited to 99 flowering and 99 in veg or just 99? Your moms count?


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I recommend RDWC to my plant count clients.
> 
> You limited to 99 flowering and 99 in veg or just 99? Your moms count?


City council here is so wishy washy on this subject I am sure most people planning to set up shop here are pretty frustrated. Nothing is etched in stone yet, and getting answers to this question are so far the most difficult things to find. I have an appt with a lawyer next week and hopefully he will know more than I have been able to find. They held a city workshop yesterday specifically to get the public feedback on the proposed rules, regulations and fees and this question still wasn't answered with any certainty. From what I understood it allowed for 99 mature plants. So for arguments sake let's assume they are allowing 99 mature, 99 in veg and whatever viable amount you need for mothers. That is pretty much the way the laws are set up for grow your own patients as of now, so they will probably adhere to that but obv on a much larger scale.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

In Colorado mature would be anything thats not a clone... your thinking makes too much sense from a growers POV so I wouldn't expect them to come to this conclusion, in fact I bet the final decision will be quite contrary. Probably trying to abide by federal 99 count limitations.


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> In Colorado mature would be anything thats not a clone... your thinking makes too much sense from a growers POV so I wouldn't expect them to come to this conclusion, in fact I bet the final decision will be quite contrary. Probably trying to abide by federal 99 count limitations.


As far as the patient laws here, which from my understanding are what they are basing the new laws on, mature here means flowering and veg is veg. This I am 100% certain on, they wrote the laws on that from a growers perspective, so at least they got that right.

You very well could be correct considering though they are not putting a cap on the amount of cultivation facilities, but are capping the amount of dispensaries at 40 and only allowing 10 the first year. All product sold in Clark County (Las Vegas) through dispensaries must be grown within Clark County, so they need enough production from the facilities to fully stock the dispensaries year round. Not sure if they are trying to accommodate that through massive amounts of cultivation facilities, which I think is doubtful. If I had to bet on it I would side on it being 99 mature and 99 in veg. So for arguments sake what would be the appropriate amount of square footage for a grow like that?

Also, would your consultation services be available this summer?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

I'm going to be shopping for a bare minimum of 7000 sqft. Probably 3500 - 4000 sqft in total canopy. This assumes facility is only for production. I would ideally be looking at a 7500+ sqft location that I can subdivide to my liking for grow rooms, mechanical, showers, manicure and drying areas and so forth. Off the cuff, plan for a ~500kVa service. Commercial rdwc trees will be big but this requires more attention. Expect 30-40% more man hours than a sog facility. If done correctly yields can be immense.

To be frank, if I can have 99 in flower and more in veg, I recommend two 99 plant veg/flower rooms of 2500 sqft each. I would veg and flower in a room. 60 - 70 days in flower so other room does 60 - 70 days veg. We will increase lighting significantly when starting flower.

Just holler when you need me. I'll fit you in.


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## DapperDon (Mar 27, 2014)

Again, your very post makes even more of an indictment. Who in their right financial mind does not have these things covered before laying a business plan of that magnitude down? When I moved my company into a 15k Sq.Ft facility (non mmj) I did not go to an online forum with zero knowledge asking for help. This screams bullshit to me. I will say that the posters that are giving rock solid info are the reason I stayed tuned, however I think OP is not what he claims and is milking all the free info he can get. The Joker said it best. If you are good at something, never do it for free. That is what consults get paid handsomely for and I am watching every mark on this forum just leave that money on the floor for OP to collect because of eager growers wanting to step up for some recognition. I think the mods need to get their collective shit together and clean this board up with all of the misposted and fraudulent shit that is starting to surface here. I believe in the sanctity of intellectual property that is given freely here to help one another, but when it is for a huge corp. endeavor as OP is perpetrating, then I see 28 pages of consulting being had for free. Taking a community's kindness for a weakness that way always rubs me the wrong way.


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> I'm going to be shopping for a bare minimum of 7000 sqft. Probably 3500 - 4000 sqft in total canopy. This assumes facility is only for production. I would ideally be looking at a 7500+ sqft location that I can subdivide to my liking for grow rooms, mechanical, showers, manicure and drying areas and so forth. Off the cuff, plan for a ~500kVa service. Commercial rdwc trees will be big but this requires more attention. Expect 30-40% more man hours than a sog facility. If done correctly yields can be immense.
> 
> To be frank, if I can have 99 in flower and more in veg, I recommend two 99 plant veg/flower rooms of 2500 sqft each. I would veg and flower in a room. 60 - 70 days in flower so other room does 60 - 70 days veg. We will increase lighting significantly when starting flower.
> 
> Just holler when you need me. I'll fit you in.


Awesome! Thank you again. Since I can't send PM's, if you don't mind email me at [email protected] when you have the time. I want to establish a solid contact with you if that's cool.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> Again, your very post makes even more of an indictment. Who in their right financial mind does not have these things covered before laying a business plan of that magnitude down? When I moved my company into a 15k Sq.Ft facility (non mmj) I did not go to an online forum with zero knowledge asking for help. This screams bullshit to me. I will say that the posters that are giving rock solid info are the reason I stayed tuned, however I think OP is not what he claims and is milking all the free info he can get. The Joker said it best. If you are good at something, never do it for free. That is what consults get paid handsomely for and I am watching every mark on this forum just leave that money on the floor for OP to collect because of eager growers wanting to step up for some recognition. I think the mods need to get their collective shit together and clean this board up with all of the misposted and fraudulent shit that is starting to surface here. I believe in the sanctity of intellectual property that is given freely here to help one another, but when it is for a huge corp. endeavor as OP is perpetrating, then I see 28 pages of consulting being had for free. Taking a community's kindness for a weakness that way always rubs me the wrong way.


If one thinks the information provided here is of equal value to a paid consult it shows your limited understanding of the complexities involved. Telling someone how many passengers, range or how much fuel a jet airplane takes hardly qualifies one to design, build and fly one.

I'm sorry your offended by the information being shared. If we are infringing on your patents or copywrite please have your attorney drop us a cease & desist and we'll get right on it.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> Again, your very post makes even more of an indictment. Who in their right financial mind does not have these things covered before laying a business plan of that magnitude down? When I moved my company into a 15k Sq.Ft facility (non mmj) I did not go to an online forum with zero knowledge asking for help. This screams bullshit to me. I will say that the posters that are giving rock solid info are the reason I stayed tuned, however I think OP is not what he claims and is milking all the free info he can get. The Joker said it best. If you are good at something, never do it for free. That is what consults get paid handsomely for and I am watching every mark on this forum just leave that money on the floor for OP to collect because of eager growers wanting to step up for some recognition. I think the mods need to get their collective shit together and clean this board up with all of the misposted and fraudulent shit that is starting to surface here. I believe in the sanctity of intellectual property that is given freely here to help one another, but when it is for a huge corp. endeavor as OP is perpetrating, then I see 28 pages of consulting being had for free. Taking a community's kindness for a weakness that way always rubs me the wrong way.


no body here is getting their panties in a bunch over this but you. and I'm curious as to whaat has been misposted or fraudulent in your eyes?

besides i'm unaware of any startup handbooks one can buy on this subject.


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

Just so you know I'm not BS'ing. Pic of my Lemon.


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

Tasty looking. Whats the flowering time and yield potential? She get pretty tall?


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## DapperDon (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> If one thinks the information provided here is of equal value to a paid consult it shows your limited understanding of the complexities involved. Telling someone how many passengers, range or how much fuel a jet airplane takes hardly qualifies one to design, build and fly one.
> 
> I'm sorry your offended by the information being shared. If we are infringing on your patents or copywrite please have your attorney drop us a cease & desist and we'll get right on it.


Just because you are feeling a sense of self importance over this as you are putting yourself at the front of this thread, do not transfer your snarky attitude to me. As a legitimate business owner, I can obviously tell that your education ended at the point where the points I made begin. Please feel free to tell me all about your successful business ventures and how you have climbed to the top of your class and industry by your merits.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> Just because you are feeling a sense of self importance over this as you are putting yourself at the front of this thread, do not transfer your snarky attitude to me. As a legitimate business owner, I can obviously tell that your education ended at the point where the points I made begin. Please feel free to tell me all about your successful business ventures and how you have climbed to the top of your class and industry by your merits.


snaps gives solid advice all over this forum. and he is one of the few people who if he doesn't know something will just say it. 

what is your contribution here other than trolling?

I think we've got a hater here boys


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## DapperDon (Mar 27, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> no body here is getting their panties in a bunch over this but you. and I'm curious as to whaat has been misposted or fraudulent in your eyes?
> 
> besides i'm unaware of any startup handbooks one can buy on this subject.


There is a saying that when you are too close to something you cannot see it for what it really is. Just because YOU have never entered into a business level University or succeeded in a corporate climate does not mean that those indicators are really there. My "panties" as you call it are in no such bunch over someones fantasy land. All I have done is look at what REAL businessmen look at (unlike yourself) from the information in this thread. And from what I can see, this is business 101. OP has no background but is pumping a rather lackluster forum ( yes this one does rather lack in the higher scientific and business methodology ) and its rather gullible user base into giving him the keys to the kingdom as it were. That is the fraud as I see it. OP has shown nothing even remotely close to having the industry working savvy or business acumen to do this the way that a true business investor would go about it. Most of you has been stoners cannot see the forest beyond your little trees and are so overeager to be counted as an "authority" on the subject that you are just falling for it. IF I was so wrong, then why hasn't OP questioned me himself or try and defend his position. Trust me, I have a huge amount of questions for OP were he to be as legit as he claims that I could guarantee he cannot answer. That is the main warning flag even as an investor that one should worry about. But I understand because from what I see, only 2% of the population of this forum actually have the chops to make this into a business. The rest are stoners wasted wishes for a that day they can be the one in charge of something larger than their ghetto closet setup as they continue to hobble together diy chillers and other contraptions that just do not work. I have been lurking for years here and this is the pattern. 
What you need to get your soft heads around the fact that someone that is even attempting to seriously begin to start a multi-million dollar venture is not going to go to a free bullshit online forum for a start to finish business plan to be made for him. And you rubes are doing just that. For nothing. People with that kind of financial backing or capability just do not do that. If they do not have the entire process understood inside and out then there is no business plan. That is the part that is cracking me the fuck up. You are all buying this shit hook, line, and sinker. 
And Joe, the startup handbooks your cannot seem to find are the ones that are given when you enter college and take business classes. The rest is basic botany that can be found at any library or on Amazon. Now, with that said, the information from posters such as yourself and others that have contributed some serious and thoughtful input are rather still on the hobbiest level and nowhere near the kind of thinking as someone that is operating this as a business. 5 gallon buckets in a 8k sq ft facility? You are thinking too small and know nothing about commercial production on any level. You want to be a dick, then fine. However the indicators here for me paint a picture of someone that has no fucking idea what he is doing and is getting you all to do the heavy lifting for his fantasy grow op. The faster you come to grips with that reality the better off your will be. I have no skin in this fight other than I do not appreciate subterfuge on any level especially when it is a community that has demonstrated itself as helpful and eager as this.


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## DapperDon (Mar 27, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> snaps gives solid advice all over this forum. and he is one of the few people who if he doesn't know something will just say it.
> 
> what is your contribution here other than trolling?
> 
> I think we've got a hater here boys


Of course you think so. You have no answers to what I said that could even come close to being a legit answer. So therefore I must be a hater. My contribution is to call out the bullshit. Because I am smart enough to keep my activities under my hat means nothing. I watch. I read. I observe the idiotic shit that people like you post and it has zero impact in my life. You have over 6k in posts because this is all you know. This is all you will ever have. And in the grand scheme of things, that isn't shit. So say in about 5 years when it is legal everywhere and those that are smarter, better financed, and have their shit together take over the industry, where is that going to leave you? Obsolete. That's where. Hate on that.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

not gonna read all that nonsense^^ nope! 

you wanna just state what your contribution here has been? 

one paragraph or less would be sufficient


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> There is a saying that when you are too close to something you cannot see it for what it really is. Just because YOU have never entered into a business level University or succeeded in a corporate climate does not mean that those indicators are really there. My "panties" as you call it are in no such bunch over someones fantasy land. All I have done is look at what REAL businessmen look at (unlike yourself) from the information in this thread. And from what I can see, this is business 101. OP has no background but is pumping a rather lackluster forum ( yes this one does rather lack in the higher scientific and business methodology ) and its rather gullible user base into giving him the keys to the kingdom as it were. That is the fraud as I see it. OP has shown nothing even remotely close to having the industry working savvy or business acumen to do this the way that a true business investor would go about it. Most of you has been stoners cannot see the forest beyond your little trees and are so overeager to be counted as an "authority" on the subject that you are just falling for it. IF I was so wrong, then why hasn't OP questioned me himself or try and defend his position. Trust me, I have a huge amount of questions for OP were he to be as legit as he claims that I could guarantee he cannot answer. That is the main warning flag even as an investor that one should worry about. But I understand because from what I see, only 2% of the population of this forum actually have the chops to make this into a business. The rest are stoners wasted wishes for a that day they can be the one in charge of something larger than their ghetto closet setup as they continue to hobble together diy chillers and other contraptions that just do not work. I have been lurking for years here and this is the pattern.
> What you need to get your soft heads around the fact that someone that is even attempting to seriously begin to start a multi-million dollar venture is not going to go to a free bullshit online forum for a start to finish business plan to be made for him. And you rubes are doing just that. For nothing. People with that kind of financial backing or capability just do not do that. If they do not have the entire process understood inside and out then there is no business plan. That is the part that is cracking me the fuck up. You are all buying this shit hook, line, and sinker.
> And Joe, the startup handbooks your cannot seem to find are the ones that are given when you enter college and take business classes. The rest is basic botany that can be found at any library or on Amazon. Now, with that said, the information from posters such as yourself and others that have contributed some serious and thoughtful input are rather still on the hobbiest level and nowhere near the kind of thinking as someone that is operating this as a business. 5 gallon buckets in a 8k sq ft facility? You are thinking too small and know nothing about commercial production on any level. You want to be a dick, then fine. However the indicators here for me paint a picture of someone that has no fucking idea what he is doing and is getting you all to do the heavy lifting for his fantasy grow op. The faster you come to grips with that reality the better off your will be. I have no skin in this fight other than I do not appreciate subterfuge on any level especially when it is a community that has demonstrated itself as helpful and eager as this.


Did they teach the use of paragraphs in your alma mater? Sorry I couldn't bother to read the wall of text you presented to see if there was anything more constructive than you ranting.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> Of course you think so. You have no answers to what I said that could even come close to being a legit answer. So therefore I must be a hater. My contribution is to call out the bullshit. Because I am smart enough to keep my activities under my hat means nothing. I watch. I read. I observe the idiotic shit that people like you post and it has zero impact in my life. You have over 6k in posts because this is all you know. This is all you will ever have. And in the grand scheme of things, that isn't shit. So say in about 5 years when it is legal everywhere and those that are smarter, better financed, and have their shit together take over the industry, where is that going to leave you? Obsolete. That's where. Hate on that.



cool story bro. we love you too


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## DapperDon (Mar 27, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> not gonna read all that nonsense^^ nope!
> 
> you wanna just state what your contribution here has been?
> 
> one paragraph or less would be sufficient


It's only nonsense because you don't have what it takes to understand it.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> It's only nonsense because you don't have what it takes to understand it.


you are a terrible troll. 

I mean you are really bad at it. 

You need some practice. Politics is where you need to be


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> . So say in about 5 years when it is legal everywhere and those that are smarter, better financed, and have their shit together take over the industry, where is that going to leave you? Obsolete. That's where. Hate on that.



i'm not sure what it is you think I do, but it seems you are confused. 

I'm a plumbing and heating contractor. How exactly will my chosen trade become obsolete? 

and is "having their shit together" a technical term? Is that a phrase you learned in business school?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

When we see negative attitudes like yours we attribute it, not to being a successful entrepreneur, rather we lean towards immaturity, jealousy or perhaps some form of socialism that frets at the mere thought of profits derived from growing commercially.

It makes little sense for a successful, business minded individual to waste such energy ranting unless threatened in some manner.


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## DapperDon (Mar 27, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> you are a terrible troll.
> 
> I mean you are really bad at it.
> 
> You need some practice. Politics is where you need to be


Ad hominem attacks and avoiding the points I raised diminishes your position.
But I can see here what this is about. And I am far from trolling. That is a cop-out plain and simple. So keep on with your fantasy and ego stroking circlejerk. All you will ever know is that small little world you live in and know that I laugh hysterically whenever I see you post these homegrown diy Frankenstein contraptions and cry because your crops turn out like shit. And you wonder why you cannot get out of growing out of a closet. HA!


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> Ad hominem attacks and avoiding the points I raised diminishes your position.
> But I can see here what this is about. And I am far from trolling. That is a cop-out plain and simple. So keep on with your fantasy and ego stroking circlejerk. All you will ever know is that small little world you live in and know that I laugh hysterically whenever I see you post these homegrown diy Frankenstein contraptions and cry because your crops turn out like shit. And you wonder why you cannot get out of growing out of a closet. HA!


Now you sound like a child.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> When we see negative attitudes like yours we attribute it, not to being a successful entrepreneur, rather we lean towards immaturity, jealousy or perhaps some form of socialism that frets at the mere thought of profits derived from growing commercially.
> 
> It makes little sense for a successful, business minded individual to waste such energy ranting unless threatened in some manner.


bingo..you got it


DapperDon said:


> Ad hominem attacks and avoiding the points I raised diminishes your position.
> But I can see here what this is about. And I am far from trolling. That is a cop-out plain and simple. So keep on with your fantasy and ego stroking circlejerk. All you will ever know is that small little world you live in and know that I laugh hysterically whenever I see you post these homegrown diy Frankenstein contraptions and cry because your crops turn out like shit. And you wonder why you cannot get out of growing out of a closet. HA!


so when does spring break end? Are you getting good grades this semester?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

Finshaggy??


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## DapperDon (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> When we see negative attitudes like yours we attribute it, not to being a successful entrepreneur, rather we lean towards immaturity, jealousy or perhaps some form of socialism that frets at the mere thought of profits derived from growing commercially.
> 
> It makes little sense for a successful, business minded individual to waste such energy ranting unless threatened in some manner.


No threats here my friend. My industry is nowhere near this. Once it is legal everywhere, people like you will be rendered obsolete. I was actually trying to defend you from giving your knowledge away for free and trying to remind you that intellectual property is a very valid thing that was being taken advantage of. But no, you see it as me being a hater. That is a small minded approach. It is my mistake to assume that there was more substance than there is. There is no such thing as energy wasted when it is done doing something that you want. And what I wanted to do was put OP on notice on his shenanigans and defend your knowledge. Won't happen again because I see that you cannot get out of the way of your own ego.


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## kushman1369 (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Tasty looking. Whats the flowering time and yield potential? She get pretty tall?


Thank you! Seriously dude, I got extremely lucky with this plant. I went through a lot of seeds to come to this pheno, and it is an amazing plant. I swear I could run this thing with no nutes from start to finish and it would still put out incredible nugs and high yield.

Flowering time is 8 weeks, yield is fantastic. I grow in tents so I bend a lot, but it will get tall quickly. Not sure how tall it would as that works against me in my current setup, but I imagine it could easily go up to 8' feet or more. If I let it go a full 8 weeks in veg it is going to be over 6'. Yield potential is fantastic as well, with Co2 and a straight grow I can get a gram a watt out of it. Puts out very dense, big buds from top to bottom. That's the beauty of this plant, even branches that have very little light exposure bud out very nicely. 

My skunk and berry are also two of the best pheno's of their strain, both selected over a long period of time and lots of seeds. All of them are very resistant to sickness as well as pests. Nothing beats the Lemon though.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

SnapsProvolone said:


> Finshaggy??


No, can't be. Fin actually grew some nice plants this last go round. 

unlike dapperdupe. 

I mean just the screename says something about this one's personality don't you think?


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## joe macclennan (Mar 27, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> . Once it is legal everywhere, .



second time i've seen him post this. Now i'm convinced he's some college sophomore whose "industry" is owning some hipster second hand clothing store


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 27, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> second time i've seen him post this. Now i'm convinced he's some college sophomore whose "industry" is owning some hipster second hand clothing store


Lmfao

His theory of obsolescence applies only to those not in the upper portion of their graduating class.


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## tiger mt. (Mar 27, 2014)

Geez Dapper, get a life. Maybe some folks freely help in order to bring the weed revolution forward? You seem to be the one crying about money for some reason..


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## BallinOnABudget (Mar 27, 2014)

I would assume this mans industry is nothing more than a figment of his so called intellectual property. I now feel retarted.. I cant believe I read all that and Jesus Christ i suck at grammar but damn it would be nice to see a business man that had to go to school do more than post compound sentences with no hint the spacebar works. My head hurts im going to burn a blunt eat some pizza bacon and biscuits and go to bed behind that..


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## shawa (Mar 28, 2014)

DapperDon said:


> Again, your very post makes even more of an indictment. Who in their right financial mind does not have these things covered before laying a business plan of that magnitude down? When I moved my company into a 15k Sq.Ft facility (non mmj) I did not go to an online forum with zero knowledge asking for help. This screams bullshit to me. I will say that the posters that are giving rock solid info are the reason I stayed tuned, however I think OP is not what he claims and is milking all the free info he can get. The Joker said it best. If you are good at something, never do it for free. That is what consults get paid handsomely for and I am watching every mark on this forum just leave that money on the floor for OP to collect because of eager growers wanting to step up for some recognition. I think the mods need to get their collective shit together and clean this board up with all of the misposted and fraudulent shit that is starting to surface here. I believe in the sanctity of intellectual property that is given freely here to help one another, but when it is for a huge corp. endeavor as OP is perpetrating, then I see 28 pages of consulting being had for free. Taking a community's kindness for a weakness that way always rubs me the wrong way.


Dapper....be a good boy. Your welcome to leave the thread if you don't like what you see...I dont need to prove myself to you anyways. You sound very miserably.


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## lifeinabox (Mar 28, 2014)

This was a great thread until a few came in and shit all over it. Many golden nuggets of information were shared, and this can be a great reference for all those with pipe dreams or real business aspirations of running such a facility. Can a mod please delete all these useless argumentative posts (including mine) and return this thread to it's former glory? Clean it up and sticky-icky this nugget. 

Please continue the constructive think-tank, so my grow-boner can resume. Food for thought - how does one handle security in a facility of this size?


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## DapperDon (Mar 28, 2014)

shawa said:


> Dapper....be a good boy. Your welcome to leave the thread if you don't like what you see...I dont need to prove myself to you anyways. You sound very miserably.


It isn't that there was anything I didn't like. It was my observation and that is all. The ad hominem attacks do not phase me in the least. Conjecturer is also another one of those things that some here take as fact. And I am far from being "miserably". I enjoy the knowledge that is learned on these forums here and there and from the select few that actually have their shit together. The rest I wouldn't trust to operate a garden rake.


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## shawa (Mar 28, 2014)

lifeinabox said:


> This was a great thread until a few came in and shit all over it. Many golden nuggets of information were shared, and this can be a great reference for all those with pipe dreams or real business aspirations of running such a facility. Can a mod please delete all these useless argumentative posts (including mine) and return this thread to it's former glory? Clean it up and sticky-icky this nugget.
> 
> Please continue the constructive think-tank, so my grow-boner can resume. Food for thought - how does one handle security in a facility of this size?


Not sure how to delete posts....as well, I just received a quote on security that would meet Health Canada regulations....came back at $190000


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## joe macclennan (Mar 28, 2014)

shawa said:


> Not sure how to delete posts....


 you can only delete your own posts. and only within three days of posting. after that they're permanent. 

190k huh? does that include armed guards? or just surveilance and alarms?


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 28, 2014)

190 sounds right with vault.


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## shawa (Mar 28, 2014)

Actually it doesn't include the vault. It does include however 340 meters ( approx.) of 10ft high chain link fence with barbed wire and manual
gate ( electric with controller optional for $15,000). The vault would probably be an additional 40000.


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## shawa (Mar 28, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> you can only delete your own posts. and only within three days of posting. after that they're permanent.
> 
> 190k huh? does that include armed guards? or just surveilance and alarms?


No armed gaurds..just cameras, sensors, key readers, pads, memory to store 2 years worth of HD footage etc


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## SnapsProvolone (Mar 28, 2014)

Over charged.


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## shawa (Mar 28, 2014)

Got a couple other companies working on quotes as well. Forgot to mention that the price he quoted includes instalation


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## jrainman (Mar 28, 2014)

I think you might have spend the other 15,000 , you will find that out in a hurry when delivery trucks start leaving the gate open , I ended up setting my double gates at my shop up with automatic openers , all workers got a key fob , and installed a touch pad also my gates close approx. 1 min after not sensing obstructions by them selves, lots of underground wiring went in when I installed it , I bought my automatic system from a company out of FL called Came great support and very happy with there products , each gate is 14 feet long x 8 feet high and were talking wrought iron gates that weigh ,I think the system was under 3 grand but worth every penny. So 15,000 grand sounds about rite.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 28, 2014)

reported.........


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## joe macclennan (Mar 28, 2014)

I can't wait till you are banned dapper...reported


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## shawa (Mar 28, 2014)

Dapper...growup man


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## DapperDon (Mar 29, 2014)

joe macclennan said:


> I can't wait till you are banned dapper...reported


Somehow I am not surprised that you are a snitch.


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## MisterBlah (Mar 31, 2014)

shawa said:


> Not sure how to delete posts....as well, I just received a quote on security that would meet Health Canada regulations....came back at $190000


That is some expensive fencing. But I also don't know how much fencing costs. What I can tell you is that a recent job we started for a 600kW facility, on a flip(yes, some people don't want to do a flip for some reason), was 140tons. Came in somewhere around $300k - 350k installed. This does not include any dry coolers or evaporative coolers.


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## MXW3LL (Apr 26, 2014)

sub'd to this thread in case some more good info pops up!


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## Rentaldog (Jun 6, 2014)

Hello all,

Sorry if this was covered earlier, but with all this talk about bringing a grow facility up I assume you have access to numbers on plant limits, taxes, and other licensing fees. If that is the case, could you please provide a link?

My family has been looking to move out of Texas for a while, and Colorado was on our list before all this legal MJ stuff cropped up. We plan on purchasing a small tract of land (50-100 acres if possible), and if I can use that land to help fund our families lifestyle that would be great.

Mostly, im having trouble figuring out the plant limits for legal retail cultivation facilities. If we could get away with growing even a half acre of marijuana at 10 sq per plant, that would make a pretty good amount of product. Not being our only source of income would help to lower the prices we could sell at, so offloading throughout the year shouldnt be too much of an issue.

Anyone have any good links that would help flesh out my ideas a bit more?

Thanks!


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## m3d1c1n3man (Jun 7, 2014)

Rentaldog said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Sorry if this was covered earlier, but with all this talk about bringing a grow facility up I assume you have access to numbers on plant limits, taxes, and other licensing fees. If that is the case, could you please provide a link?
> 
> ...


you will get the feds knocking down your door if you try something like that. the OP is in Canada.


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## Rentaldog (Jun 7, 2014)

m3d1c1n3man said:


> you will get the feds knocking down your door if you try something like that. the OP is in Canada.


I understand there will always be the threat of Federal intervention until MJ is legal across the board. Just to be clear though, I dont plan on doing anything as big as the OP - simply plan on growing an outdoor harvest each year, and running a perpetual grow indoors to help pay for things the family may need. 

Also, this might interest you (and other members of rollitup) - http://www.hightimes.com/read/us-house-bans-feds-policing-medical-marijuana-states

Now this still has to pass one more vote I think, but if it does it should help to even the playing field for those interested in getting in on the ground floor for legal MJ.

Thanks again!


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## tiger mt. (Jun 7, 2014)

Rentaldog said:


> Hello all,
> 
> Sorry if this was covered earlier, but with all this talk about bringing a grow facility up I assume you have access to numbers on plant limits, taxes, and other licensing fees. If that is the case, could you please provide a link?
> 
> ...


You need 3 year residency in CO to be considered for a commercial license. Then you need several hundred thousand in start up capital to get going. Unfortunately, it's not quite as simple as buying land and growing your ass off - move to CA if this is what you are looking for.


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## Rentaldog (Jun 7, 2014)

tiger mt. said:


> You need 3 year residency in CO to be considered for a commercial license. Then you need several hundred thousand in start up capital to get going. Unfortunately, it's not quite as simple as buying land and growing your ass off - move to CA if this is what you are looking for.


Damn, the three year deal is kind of a deal breaker  that might just be a good time to get my roots down in CO though, and feel out the market! Was planning on working in a dispensary anyhow, just ready for a change workwise. Oilfield sucks a whole lot.

As for startup, why would it cost so much? I understand the licensing is expensive, and needs to be renewed annually, but aside from that? All you need is a secure enclosed area that can be locked and has surveillance. I dont want a mega grow area, just a quarter acre spot outside to harvest once a year and another indoor space to allow for yearly grows.

Doesnt seem like much to me, anyhow


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## BustinScales510 (Jun 7, 2014)

Rentaldog said:


> I understand there will always be the threat of Federal intervention until MJ is legal across the board. Just to be clear though, I dont plan on doing anything as big as the OP - simply plan on growing an outdoor harvest each year, and running a perpetual grow indoors to help pay for things the family may need.
> 
> Also, this might interest you (and other members of rollitup) - http://www.hightimes.com/read/us-house-bans-feds-policing-medical-marijuana-states
> 
> ...


.... The cultivation of 30 or more plants is a Class 4 felony punishable by 2-6 years imprisonment as well as a fine between $2,000-$500,000.

Please see:


18-18-406( of the Colorado Revised Statutes
http://norml.org/laws/item/colorado-penalties


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## Rentaldog (Jun 7, 2014)

BustinScales510 said:


> .... The cultivation of 30 or more plants is a Class 4 felony punishable by 2-6 years imprisonment as well as a fine between $2,000-$500,000.
> 
> Please see:
> 
> ...


I may be misreading your post, but im talking about growing with a retail cultivation license. That changes things, as the state then allows for a person to grow a certain number of plants to supply legal MJ establishments. Unless im not reading it right.


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## BustinScales510 (Jun 7, 2014)

Rentaldog said:


> I may be misreading your post, but im talking about growing with a retail cultivation license. That changes things, as the state then allows for a person to grow a certain number of plants to supply legal MJ establishments. Unless im not reading it right.


 Right, they dont just hand out those licences to homegrowers.


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## Rentaldog (Jun 7, 2014)

BustinScales510 said:


> Right, they dont just hand out those licences to homegrowers.


I agree, it would take the required money to get the license and also a bit of luck. Things will ease up in the years to come though, as the nation gets its feet wet. I hope so anyhow


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## dannyboy602 (Jun 7, 2014)

Did some cleaning up. I enjoyed reading the thread, it was informative. If you need a mod to help take out the trash just pm me. Sunni is so busy.
SHAMELESS PLUG
I will pm anyone who asks a resume of my more than 20 years experience in the green industry. Looking to get into the Cannabiz and can relocate in a new York minute just not to Canada.


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## ttystikk (Jun 7, 2014)

Colorado is the place to be.

Take me, for instance; I've spent the last couple of years perfecting a vertical gardening system tailor made for growing in commercial warehouses. It reduces manhours per unit of yield, cuts power consumption by a factor of four without changing bulbs, doubles space efficiency, is fully automated and proven to grow a wide variety of strains reliably and well, up to two pounds or more per individual specimen, regardless of strain type- not including auto flowering varieties.

I'm staying right here in the greenest rectangle on earth because here is where people will be interested in growing more than ever before while spending drastically less on electricity and rent per pound.

In fact, I'm laying down the gauntlet right now; I can build a system that fits in 1000 sq ft that will yield between one and one and a half pounds per day, indefinitely, ad infinitum. Veg, bloom, cooling, the works. And a bathroom.


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## Rentaldog (Jun 7, 2014)

Sounds like we need to get together one of these days, ttystikk xD


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## m3d1c1n3man (Jun 7, 2014)

ttystikk said:


> Colorado is the place to be.
> 
> Take me, for instance; I've spent the last couple of years perfecting a vertical gardening system tailor made for growing in commercial warehouses. It reduces manhours per unit of yield, cuts power consumption by a factor of four without changing bulbs, doubles space efficiency, is fully automated and proven to grow a wide variety of strains reliably and well, up to two pounds or more per individual specimen, regardless of strain type- not including auto flowering varieties.
> 
> ...


damn you're obsessed with that vertical growing...


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## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2014)

m3d1c1n3man said:


> damn you're obsessed with that vertical growing...


Yeah. 'Obsessed,' kinda like the guy who bought a car to drive because he was tired of looking at his horse's ass everywhere he went.

Maybe for some people, the application of common sense is obsessive compulsive behavior. Funny how I don't get to smoke their weed much...


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## dannyboy602 (Jun 8, 2014)

It's not obsessed to want to maximize the use of space. Since all this is new there's def room for innovation and if ttystikk has a good idea it will catch on eventually.


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## ttystikk (Jun 8, 2014)

I designed and built a prototype vertical grow production facility, complete with water cooling and integrated power systems management. Yes, I'm cock sure my op will scale, all right- because that's exactly what I built it for!


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## Thunderbum (Jun 8, 2014)

As an ex Management Consultant, Project Manager and Financial Modeler I have read this thread end to end. It has been fascinating (with the exception of Dapper Don who appears to have neurological problems or a personality disorder). The OP or anyone else planning setting up such a complex operation needs information, money, licencing, and project control. I can see why he is looking for ball-park information. Without this he cannot start planning. He really needs a qualified project manager BEFORE he starts, to anticipate the pit-falls and avoid them. His intial function is to refine the proposal. Without clear refined objectives it is more than likely to go tits up (large time and cost overuns until the money runs out). Design is critical and needs to be well costed and technically proven. Informal project management will not do at this level of complexity and cost. 
When he has clarified his vision the project manager needs to schedule design, specification, licencing etc in time. This is a critical path function so that functions that can run in parallel do so, shortening the overall time between first spend and first revenue. Seems to me a flow-chart is needed together with a financial model, charting cash-flow on a month by month basis. This needs to be cleared with the backers. There needs to be regular reporting to teh Board/Backers matched against the critical path. If the OP (or others planning a similar operation) does not appreciate this, there will be tears! Remember - you cannot simply scale up a domestic grow. This is quite a different undertaking.
There are a lot of other non-grow complexities: route to market, sales projections, equipment delivery build/lead times, construction sheduling, marketing, supplies, vagaries of the licencing authorites (jobs-worths with no skin in the game), services supply, security, recruitment, management systems, operative training etc etc etc. This is not just setting up a grow - it is setting up a factory and a substantial business with few proven precedents. 
A formidible job but not impossible. Best of luck to you all. I watch with interest and wish you all success. I have seen some good stuff in this thread and am sure it will get sorted.


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