# This Is Why I Believe.



## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

....there is a God.
Although there isn't any physical proof of his existence, hear me out. I will not be bashing atheism or any one that doesn't believe.

My example, is Love. It is an emotion we all feel. An emotion we all NEED. It is present in every single persons life, whether they are being loved, or they are loving someone/something(i.e. their BUDS). Now, with that being said, has anyone here seen Love? Physically seen it? Now, I could go on with different emotions, but that would just spread this out too much.

The reason I believe there is a God is because there is plenty of proof that there are things beyond us, beyond what we can physically see, but what we physically feel. I believe God can reach down and touch us, in ways we can't describe, but I like to call them (loosely) as goosebumps =)

Please feel free to shut this theory of mine down.


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## malicifice (Oct 24, 2010)

Yup. Nice doberman there too


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## LorDeMO (Oct 24, 2010)

You can't see an emotion...I do not understand your points but it's your right to have them.


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

Lol, he's a dotson. They look so much like dobermans tho.


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

LorDeMO said:


> You can't see an emotion...I do not understand your points but it's your right to have them.


Well, think of it like this. Everyone wants some sort of physical proof that there is a God. Something you can see, touch, smell, taste whatever. You cannot see,touch, smell, or taste emotions, but they are there! We cannot see them, but we feel them none the less. Which proves to me that there are things beyond our knowledge and beyond us period.


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## LorDeMO (Oct 24, 2010)

We can't see atoms but we know they exist. There are things the naked eye cannot see yes, but we can still find their existence.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

I have something for you, BRB.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

'Let me explain the problem science has with religion.' 
The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and
then asks one of his new students to stand.

'You're a Christian, aren't you, son?'

'Yes sir,' the student says. 

'So you believe in God?' 

'Absolutely.'

'Is God good?' 

'Sure! God's good.' 

'Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?'

'Yes.'

'Are you good or evil?' 

'The Bible says I'm evil.' 

The professor grins knowingly. 'Aha! The Bible! He considers for a moment. 'Here's one for you. Let's say there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would you help him? Would you try?'


'Yes sir, I would.' 

'So you're good...!' 

'I wouldn't say that.'

'But why not say that? You'd help a sick and maimed person if you could. 
Most of us would if we could. But God doesn't.' 

The student does not answer, so the professor continues. 'He
doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of
cancer, even though he prayed to Jesus to heal him. How is
this Jesus good? Can you answer that one?'

The student remains silent. 'No, you can't, can you?' the professor says. 
He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk to give the student time to relax.
'Let's start again, young fella. Is God good?'

'Er..yes,' the student says. 

'Is Satan good?' 
The student doesn't hesitate on this one. 'No.'

'Then where does Satan come from?' 

The student falters. 'From God'

'That's right. God made Satan, didn't he? Tell me, son. Is there evil in this world?' 

'Yes, sir..' 

'Evil's everywhere, isn't it? And God did make everything, correct?' 

'Yes'

'So who created evil?' The professor continued, 'If God
created everything, then God created evil, since evil
exists, and according to the principle that our works define
who we are, then God is evil.' 

Again, the student has no answer. 'Is there sickness?
Immorality? Hatred? Ugliness? All these terrible things, do
they exist in this world?' 

The student squirms on his feet. 'Yes.'

'So who created them?' 

The student does not answer again, so the professor repeats his
question. 'Who created them?' There is still no answer. 
Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to pace in front of the classroom. 
The class is mesmerized. 


'Tell me,' he continues onto another student. 'Do you
believe in Jesus Christ, son?' 

The student's voice betrays him and cracks. 'Yes, professor, I do.' 

The old man stops pacing. 'Science says you have five senses
you use to identify and observe the world around you. 
Have you ever seen Jesus?' 

'No sir. I've never seen Him.' 
'Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?'

'No, sir, I have not..' 

'Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt your
Jesus? Have you ever had any sensory perception of Jesus
Christ, or God for that matter?' 

'No, sir, I'm afraid I haven't.'

'Yet you still believe in him?' 

'Yes'

'According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable protocol,
science says your God doesn't exist... What do you say
to that, son?' 

'Nothing,' the student replies.. 'I only have my faith.'

'Yes, faith,' the professor repeats. 'And that is the
problem science has with God. There is no evidence, only faith.' 

The student stands quietly for a moment, before asking a
question of his own. 'Professor, is there such thing as heat? ' 

'Yes.' 

'And is there such a thing as cold?' 

'Yes, son, there's cold too.'

'No sir, there isn't.' 

The professor turns to face the student, obviously interested.
The room suddenly becomes very quiet. The student begins to
explain. 'You can have lots of heat, even more heat,
super-heat, mega-heat, unlimited heat, white heat, a little
heat or no heat, but we don't have anything called
'cold'. We can hit down to 458 degrees below zero,
which is no heat, but we can't go any further after
that. There is no such thing as cold; otherwise we would be
able to go colder than the lowest -458 degrees. Every body
or object is susceptible to study when it has or transmits
energy, and heat is what makes a body or matter have or
transmit energy. Absolute zero (-458 F) is the total absence
of heat. You see, sir, cold is only a word we use to
describe the absence of heat. We cannot measure cold. Heat
we can measure in thermal
units because heat is energy. Cold is not the opposite of
heat, sir, just the absence of it.'

Silence across the room. A pen drops somewhere in the classroom,
sounding like a hammer. 

'What about darkness, professor. Is there such a thing as
darkness?' 

'Yes,' the professor replies without hesitation.. 'What is
night if it isn't darkness?' 

'You're wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something; it is the
absence of something. You can have low light, normal light,
bright light, flashing light, but if you have no light
constantly you have nothing and it's called darkness,
isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the
word. In reality, darkness isn't. If it were, you would
be able to make darkness darker, wouldn't you?'

The professor begins to smile at the student in front of him.
This will be a good semester. 'So what point are you
making, young man?' 

'Yes, professor. My point is, your philosophical premise is flawed
to start with, and so your conclusion must also be
flawed.' 

The professor's face cannot hide his surprise this time.
'Flawed? Can you explain how?'

'You are working on the premise of duality,' the student
explains.. 'You argue that there is life and then
there's death; a good God and a bad God. You are viewing
the concept of God as something finite, something we can
measure. Sir, science can't even explain a thought.'
'It uses electricity and magnetism, but has never seen,
much less fully understood either one. To view death as the
opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact that death
cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the
opposite of life, just the absence of it.' 'Now tell
me, professor... Do you teach your students that they
evolved from a monkey?' 

'If you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young
man, yes, of course I do.' 

'Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?'

The professor begins to shake his head, still smiling, as he
realizes where the argument is going. A very good semester,
indeed. 

'Since no one has ever observed the process of evolution at work
and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going
endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you
now not a scientist, but a preacher?'

The class is in uproar. The student remains silent until the
commotion has subsided. 'To continue the point you were
making earlier to the other student, let me give you an
example of what I mean.' The student looks around the
room. 'Is there anyone in the class who has ever seen
the professor's brain?' The class breaks out into
laughter. 'Is there anyone here who has ever heard the
professor's brain, felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain? No one appears
to have done so. So, according to the established rules of
empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science says that
you have no brain, with all due respect, sir.' 'So
if science says you have no brain, how can we trust your
lectures, sir?' 

Now the room is silent. The professor just stares at the
student, his face unreadable. Finally, after what seems an
eternity, the old man answers. 'I guess you'll have
to take them on faith.' 

'Now, you accept that there is faith, and, in fact, faith exists
with life,' the student continues. 'Now, sir, is
there such a thing as evil?' Now uncertain, the
professor responds, 'Of course, there is.. We see it
Everyday. It is in the daily example of man's inhumanity
to man. It is in The multitude of crime and violence
everywhere in the world. These manifestations are nothing
else but evil.' 

To this the student replied, 'Evil does not exist sir, or
at least it does not exist unto itself. Evil is simply the
absence of God. It is just like darkness and cold, a word
that man has created to describe the absence of God.. God
did not create evil. Evil is the result of what happens when
man does not have God's love present in his heart.
It's like the cold that comes when there is no heat or
the darkness that comes when there is no light.'

The professor sat down.

If you read it all the way through and had a smile on your
face when you finished, mail to your friends and family with
the title 'God vs. Science' 

PS: the student was Albert Einstein 

Albert Einstein wrote a book titled God vs. Science in
1921...[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]


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## LorDeMO (Oct 24, 2010)

Omg, not this again. This shit comes up in every thread about religion. You do realise it's completely made up, right?


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

An atom does not effect us tho. I know its the base of everything...but how does an atoma directly relate to something like our feelings and emotions? We love our families and would die to protect them. Thats serious shit right there.
When we(some people) get angry enough, we shoot and kill. Thats serious.

We cant see these feelings physically, but they effect us. And change our lives.


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## LorDeMO (Oct 24, 2010)

You just sound really baked atm.

Atoms do not affect us...OK ... ¬_¬ ...


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

Dont listin LOARDEMO is a troll and his time is comming


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

Why do you say that? Its true....Ive never seen a rebuttle to that there "essay" that has caught my eye.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

im a namecaller so be it, this guy wants to talk about how he/we feel about god im going to support it.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

LorDeMO said:


> You just sound really baked atm.
> 
> Atoms do not affect us...OK ... ¬_¬ ...



All you had to say...


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## LorDeMO (Oct 24, 2010)

It is bullshit tho, don't believe me? Google your little speech and see the million of sources disputing it...


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

Explain a LOGICAL situation where an atom effects our consciousness. It effects our being, yes, but does it effect how we live our lives? We each have different personalities, something else we cant see, and we each choose different paths. But an atom is common in every person, everything. 

And yes, I am very high right now. Thank you


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

"I think certain people feel like they have to walk around with a stick in their ass and disrupt everyone's feelings."


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

NITROGEN.. Need I say more?


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## LorDeMO (Oct 24, 2010)

Thought so lol. If I was high I would probably argue my case more but I'm kinda lazy...


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

LorDeMO said:


> It is bullshit tho, don't believe me? Google your little speech and see the million of sources disputing it...


Isnt that how you find FACTS in general????

Google dog, and Im sure you will see plenty of sources disputing a dog.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

Try the library in my study!


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## LorDeMO (Oct 24, 2010)

Don't believe me, that's fine. Enjoy your ignorance Mutant...


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

His ignorance of what?


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

God says not to cast your pearls to swine. 

so STFU we have a cross for you right here.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

Your not going to believe this!\
2 houses down in the cow pasture they were burning a cross!
We took pics with out phones!


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

EMO the absence of FAITH lol lol


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## trichlone fiend (Oct 24, 2010)

....who made god?


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## IregAt420 (Oct 24, 2010)

trichlone fiend said:


> ....who made god?


Atoms lol. Idk.
I guess thats something else we cant explain. But since I tried to at least answer your question, I'd like to have your opinion on what I said in the OP. Instead of just a question.


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## LightningMcGreen (Oct 24, 2010)

The whole einstien thing with the professor..is kinda self debunking...

The definition of darkness, is the absence of light..nothing more. There isn't different levels of darkness, only one...so if the very thing we are trying to measure, is absent...is just that..impossible to measure, because it's not there...same thing with the cold.

Put an atheist, a christian, a buddhist, and a wiccan all in the same room. Turn off all the lights and have them describe what they see. They will all agree, unanimously, that its dark. Turn down the temp 30 degrees...again, they will all agree unanimously, that it's colder. Now ask them all to feel God and describe it...that's where mixed results come in, and the cute story falls apart.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

Why dont you ask him, when you die?


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

LightningMcGreen said:


> The whole einstien thing with the professor..is kinda self debunking...
> 
> The definition of darkness, is the absence of light..nothing more. There isn't different levels of darkness, only one...so if the very thing we are trying to measure, is absent...is just that..impossible to measure, because it's not there...same thing with the cold.
> 
> Put an atheist, a christian, a buddhist, and a wiccan all in the same room. Turn off all the lights and have them describe what they see. They will all agree, unanimously, that its dark. Turn down the temp 30 degrees...again, they will all agree unanimously, that it's colder. Now ask them all to feel God and describe it...that's where mixed results come in, and the cute story falls apart.


You just didn't get it because of your Point of view.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

Do you know Jesus?

You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink.

The guy that came up with that did.


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## mindphuk (Oct 24, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> Lol, he's a dotson. They look so much like dobermans tho.





IregAt420 said:


> Why do you say that? Its true....Ive never seen a rebuttle to that there "essay" that has caught my eye.


Considering you don't even know how to say or spell the breed of your dog, I don't think anyone's going to take your word on a bullshit story about Einstein. Think about it, the story starts off first with the kid claiming he is Christian when in fact Einstein was Jewish. The rest of the story is filled with the student setting up a straw man and taking it down along with equivocations between the scientific definitions of words like 'heat' and the less stringent common usages of the words. Those aren't valid arguments, they are merely semantics and fallacies. No decent science professor would answer those questions that way without first correcting such misconceptions. 
Here's a full debunking/ rebuttal of the "essay" http://www.snopes.com/religion/einstein.asp Of course it doesn't tackle the bullshit claim that he wrote a book in 1921 entitled _God vs. Science _because that spurious detail seems to have been added more recently. Anyone that believes this story is real care to validate that claim? Link to anything that verifies he wrote such a book?


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## LightningMcGreen (Oct 24, 2010)

MuntantLizzard said:


> You just didn't get it because of your Point of view.


No, I disagree, I got it just fine and pointed out the flaws within. If I am incorrect, pleast outline how so...?


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## trichlone fiend (Oct 24, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> Atoms lol. Idk.
> I guess thats something else we cant explain. But since I tried to at least answer your question, I'd like to have your opinion on what I said in the OP. Instead of just a question.


...sorry man, I just can't take any words of religion serious in 2010....
[youtube]gPOfurmrjxo[/youtube]


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

I have another belief i wanna tell you about. 

YOUR GOING TO HELL UNLESS WE SAVE YOU.

lol I have to say your an abomination and will be dealt with.
Not with bombs or swords.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

George Carlin is an ATHEIST! and now hes in hell.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

SNopes.com Is a Entertainment site.


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## LightningMcGreen (Oct 24, 2010)

Hell...LOL

Still waitin on a straight answer on how I "didn't get it"


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## tardis (Oct 24, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> ....there is a God.
> Although there isn't any physical proof of his existence, hear me out. I will not be bashing atheism or any one that doesn't believe.
> 
> My example, is Love. It is an emotion we all feel. An emotion we all NEED. It is present in every single persons life, whether they are being loved, or they are loving someone/something(i.e. their BUDS). Now, with that being said, has anyone here seen Love? Physically seen it? Now, I could go on with different emotions, but that would just spread this out too much.
> ...


Love is seen, its a chemical reaction in the brain. We now that the chemicals that make love are different from species to species as different ones had different uses during their (dreaded word) evolution. Chimps for example have more love than us humans to eachother. I also heard hummingbirds out do us for how much love they feel for another bird. Humans are actually shifting out of that love being necessary thus humans who feel little love are breeding because they marry for finances, sex, class, and a lot of other useless to passing on genes reasons for marrying. That being said, its true we dont know a lot about whats around us as we only have 5 senses. And it is true there seems to be an odd method to this madness. But that in itself does not prove a god to me. The more I learn the more I realizes the probability of us existing given what we mathmatically understand about universes (yes our universe is a bubble actually a petri dish shape and it is expanding, but the laws of physics here are not the same in the next galaxy as we are currently learning) is that YES our Universe should exist and YES consciousness should exist EVEN without a God. That being said I do have irrational theories myself, like that consciousness existing in our universe is actually dark energy leaking into our physical universe. (dark energy (which is still totally theoretical) seems to be a battery that fuels consciousness and seems to drain the more we the conscious look at it.) Irrational yes, more likely than God? yes.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

TO THE NUN HITTING THE BONG.

THE ABSENCE OF FAITH IS?
YOU , You are EVIL in the flesh.

Of course you didn't get it.


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## tardis (Oct 24, 2010)

Of course anything I say is pointless, because as all christians know, the devil will try to confuse and misdirect you from God using such evil tools as science, study, facts and relevant information! Stay on guard against these peoples LOGIC, as that is the devil trying to distract you from putting extra money into the plate at church this sabbath!


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## LightningMcGreen (Oct 24, 2010)

MuntantLizzard said:


> TO THE NUN HITTING THE BONG.
> 
> THE ABSENCE OF FAITH IS?
> YOU , You are EVIL in the flesh.
> ...


Oh look here, the holy roller bashin my avatar when he himself is smoking and growing...pot callin the kettle black, eh?

And for all you know, that nun could have glaucoma. STILL waitin on your rebuttal to my tearing down your falsified story...


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

Maybe if you have to be told you shouldn't bash god. Just maybe, maybe we shouldn't try to save your ass


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## trichlone fiend (Oct 24, 2010)

MuntantLizzard said:


> George Carlin is an ATHEIST! and now hes in hell.


....watch your mouth about George!


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## mindphuk (Oct 24, 2010)

MuntantLizzard said:


> SNopes.com Is a Entertainment site.


Doesn't your god dislike lying? Making up a story about someone like Einstein and going around calling it fact is slander. That's why we have laws that require evidence. Not only is professor strawman put in place of an actual argument, this is insulting to Einstein by putting words and beliefs in his mouth. Einstein made it clear that he was neither a theist nor an atheist. He used the word&#65279; "God" to describe the universe and the unknown, and he lambasted religion, and Christianity in particular. So many layers of lies.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

I hope you bathe in bbq sauce. 

To the sheep that follow the wolf.


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## tardis (Oct 24, 2010)

MuntantLizzard said:


> Maybe if you have to be told you shouldn't bash god. Just maybe, maybe we shouldn't try to save your ass


So its ok to totally douche out on someone as long as you are coming from trying to save them? Kinda a "how many times do i have to F'k your sister to prove to you God exists?" type thing? Yeah thats the problem, Jesus the actual guy would probly call you a douche and avoid you.


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## tardis (Oct 24, 2010)

trichlone fiend said:


> ....watch your mouth about George!


LOL, Devil gonna need to watch out, as George will explain shit in a way that will have everyone laughin at him. "Whats with the horns, you dont use them for anything, are you just into Goats? Why is our whole society down here dictated by Lewy's goat fetish? Spend a little too much time on a farm?"


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## LightningMcGreen (Oct 24, 2010)

Yeah, strong argument guy...way to really "show us the way"...speaking in nonsensical proverbs because you have no logical rebuttals to our pretty easily identified evidence...if there were a God, let's just say he wouldn't be very proud of you.


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## tardis (Oct 24, 2010)

[video]http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=3d5_1287516985[/video]

Watch this video Atheists to learn how to properly argue against the crusades of christians to rob you of freedom and money.


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## trichlone fiend (Oct 24, 2010)

MuntantLizzard said:


> To the sheep that follow the wolf.


.....awe shit.....SPOOKY LANGUAGE! ...can you type fucking english? Get your head out of that King James version and think/talk for yourself.


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## MuntantLizzard (Oct 24, 2010)

Im a troll bye. enjoy the thread.
.


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## tardis (Oct 24, 2010)

Jesus was the first politician. He was put up by 13 people who wanted to take over the government by taking over the people first. they had to offer the people a lot of plus's to come to their side politically. "Render on to Cesar what is Cesars!" when asked about paying his tax, jesus was trying to tell everyone to pay tax, because when his people took over the government he wanted them to not be angry about paying them tax. Dont get me wrong, I agree with a lot of Jesus's politics if he had taken over as a government leader, but promises b4 power and actual implimentation are never really as accurate as you'd think.


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## trichlone fiend (Oct 24, 2010)

MuntantLizzard said:


> Im a troll bye. enjoy the thread.
> .


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## kronic1989 (Oct 24, 2010)

trichlone fiend said:


>


 lmfao!

The sun is my god! MY GOD EXISTS HAHA IVE GOT PROOF!


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## IregAt420 (Oct 25, 2010)

trichlone fiend said:


> ...sorry man, I just can't take any words of religion serious in 2010....
> [youtube]gPOfurmrjxo[/youtube]


I like George Carlin, very smart man. I enjoy a lot of his "standups". Have you watched any of his others where he talks about the government and the way they play us through the media? I dont know if he is talking about the illuminati or what, but it matches up with everything the illumanati stands for. In that case, he would be talking about a group of people trying to raise the anti-christ. Which would mean there is a good vs evil battle in which there is a God.


And how nice of you Phuck, to correct my spelling on my dog, or at least point out something that has nothing to do with the OP that way you feel you are one up. I did say that I enjoyed that "essay" as I called it, but I would never use it as an argument piece.

Muntant, stop jackin this thread with stupid remarks like the Your going to hell one, they can believe what they want, just the same to you, but in the OP I said I wouldnt be bashing theirs.


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## IregAt420 (Oct 25, 2010)

Im not a religion freak either, I used to be Southern Baptist, but I choose to just believe in God. As simple as that. As much as religion has been messed around with, its hard to know what is true in their teaching. So I choose to just simply believe He is up there.


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## mindphuk (Oct 25, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> And how nice of you Phuck, to correct my spelling on my dog, or at least point out something that has nothing to do with the OP that way you feel you are one up. I did say that I enjoyed that "essay" as I called it, but I would never use it as an argument piece.


 Sorry but you own the dog, at least try to spell it close to the right way so it looks like a typo. You sound like the people that think they own a rockwilder.


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## IregAt420 (Oct 25, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Sorry but you own the dog, at least try to spell it close to the right way so it looks like a typo. You sound like the people that think they own a rockwilder.


So you come on my thread about God to correct my spelling? Wtf? And google my dog for me and tell me how to spell it, all im getting is DOTSON, which is how I spelled it originally.
Why not loosen up a little? Get laid, smoke...its a fuckin keyboard, not a highly sensitive control board for NASA, now gtf off my nuts about my dog.


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## kronic1989 (Oct 26, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> So you come on my thread about God to correct my spelling? Wtf? And google my dog for me and tell me how to spell it, all im getting is DOTSON, which is how I spelled it originally.
> Why not loosen up a little? Get laid, smoke...its a fuckin keyboard, not a highly sensitive control board for NASA, now gtf off my nuts about my dog.


 lmfao! .............


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## mindphuk (Oct 26, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> So you come on my thread about God to correct my spelling? Wtf? And google my dog for me and tell me how to spell it, all im getting is DOTSON, which is how I spelled it originally.
> Why not loosen up a little? Get laid, smoke...its a fuckin keyboard, not a highly sensitive control board for NASA, now gtf off my nuts about my dog.


 You're a fucking ignoramus. I made one comment about your dog but the rest of my post was about the topic but you seem so hung up about the dog you just can't let it go. You're the one that decided the dog topic was more worthy of a response than the topic about imaginary beings. Why don't you loosen up a little and smoke a blunt. 
It's dachshund you moron! It's not pronounced dot-sun but dock-sun. You would think that someone that owns the breed would know these things but I guess when you believe there is an invisible man in the clouds you are missing something in the brain-power area.


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## karri0n (Oct 26, 2010)

tardis said:


> Love is seen, its a chemical reaction in the brain. We now that the chemicals that make love are different from species to species as different ones had different uses during their (dreaded word) evolution. Chimps for example have more love than us humans to eachother. I also heard hummingbirds out do us for how much love they feel for another bird. Humans are actually shifting out of that love being necessary thus humans who feel little love are breeding because they marry for finances, sex, class, and a lot of other useless to passing on genes reasons for marrying. That being said, its true we dont know a lot about whats around us as we only have 5 senses. And it is true there seems to be an odd method to this madness. But that in itself does not prove a god to me. The more I learn the more I realizes the probability of us existing given what we mathmatically understand about universes (yes our universe is a bubble actually a petri dish shape and it is expanding, but the laws of physics here are not the same in the next galaxy as we are currently learning) is that YES our Universe should exist and YES consciousness should exist EVEN without a God. That being said I do have irrational theories myself, like that consciousness existing in our universe is actually dark energy leaking into our physical universe. (dark energy (which is still totally theoretical) seems to be a battery that fuels consciousness and seems to drain the more we the conscious look at it.) Irrational yes, more likely than God? yes.



Sorry bud, but religious experience has been measured in EEG scans as well. Electrochemical reactions in the brain are no more proof of the existence of love than they are proof of the existence of gods. You've also failed to say even one thing in this post that is correct. The laws of physics are different in other galaxies? Please, please, post a link to something corroborating this.


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## april (Oct 26, 2010)

LorDeMO said:


> You can't see an emotion...I do not understand your points but it's your right to have them.


i see emeotion all the time, people laugh, smile, cry, frown, stick out their tongue. 
When a new mother gives birth you can see the emotions in her face, glowing eyes, giant smile, sweat beading down her face. Or Pain, no one can tell me that i can't feel or see sadness, when my father passed when i was 9 and my mother had to tell me he was gone, i saw and felt pain. The emptyness and sadness in someones eyes, words can be felt, seen and heard.
Faith is believing in something, The other day while driving i was having a moment of self pitty (been a rough few years, had 4 people die in not natural ways, lost my job of 7 yrs) but at the moment i needed it the most some random old sign on the side of the road said " always follow your dreams, never ever give up" i was about to cry when the next sign was for a taxidermist lol it made me laugh ,something my father would have done. 
Watch a 5 yr old open presents christmas morning, or and olympic athlete just win a race they trained their life for. Sorry but i can see and feel emotion all around me.


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## PhilosopherKing (Oct 27, 2010)

Your God is just a philosophy, pretty much a paradox when we get down to it's core. For a myth is a myth and if you try to question a myth that's very much alive today, it has it's own survival instinct and thus the myth will live on.

But be a Christian, it's absolutely fine with me, you don't seem to be hurting anyone with your religious poetry and such


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## karri0n (Oct 28, 2010)

PhilosopherKing said:


> pretty much a paradox when we get down to it's core.


Can you explain? The "core" of most religions comes down to a source of divine energy, the very base of what reality is built upon. Science has shown this to be true. Where is the Paradox?


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## ayr0n (Oct 28, 2010)

i dont have time to read all the posts so i might b pointin out something someones already said..

There's no proof of love, and love is not proof of god. This "love" people refer to is just a bond or emotional connection you feel with someone, which the majority of is caused by chemical balances in your head and how You /your body/ mind react when with this person , or how past experiences have created the image of thsi person inside your head...Its not a magical god sent force, it's science.


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## LightningMcGreen (Oct 28, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Can you explain? The "core" of most religions comes down to a source of divine energy, the very base of what reality is built upon. Science has shown this to be true. Where is the Paradox?


The heaven paradox, for one. For instance, my parents live "christian" lives, at least to the point of saying that God is real. I however, am an atheist, though I live a pretty good life. I help others in need, I don't do anything wicked to my knowledge, I go to work, take care of my kids, and just sit at home with a bong and peace and quiet in my spare time.

So if the bible is true, and heaven does exist, and it's supposed to be perfect in every way imaginable, how will my parents achieve nirvana and serenity if they're mourning for me not being able to make it with them? (posted earlier by myself and padawanbater)

Btw, theres no scientific evidence of "divine" power...maybe in the _pseudoscience_ area, but not _real_ science.


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## mindphuk (Oct 28, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Can you explain? The "core" of most religions comes down to a source of divine energy, the very base of what reality is built upon. Science has shown this to be true. Where is the Paradox?


I must have missed this. What exactly has science shown to be true about divine energy?


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## karri0n (Oct 29, 2010)

LightningMcGreen said:


> The heaven paradox, for one. For instance, my parents live "christian" lives, at least to the point of saying that God is real. I however, am an atheist, though I live a pretty good life. I help others in need, I don't do anything wicked to my knowledge, I go to work, take care of my kids, and just sit at home with a bong and peace and quiet in my spare time.
> 
> So if the bible is true, and heaven does exist, and it's supposed to be perfect in every way imaginable, how will my parents achieve nirvana and serenity if they're mourning for me not being able to make it with them? (posted earlier by myself and padawanbater)
> 
> Btw, theres no scientific evidence of "divine" power...maybe in the _pseudoscience_ area, but not _real_ science.


That's not the core of religious belief, and if you were simply trying to debunk the judeo-christian mindset, there are FAR better points to make than this(such as how the earth is only 6000 years old maybe?). This straw man argument is pretty much nonsense.

It doesn't take a brain scientist or a rocket surgeon to figure out that the modern Christian orthodox is a bunch of political garbage and has very little spiritual value. You're talking about something that a few wealthy, powerful people made up to control the masses, not a true, spiritual message akin to what Jesus or Buddha tried to relate to their followers.

Once again, I ask you to relate to me how the *core* of spiritual belief is a paradox. In case you missed it the first time, the core of any true spiritual practice or belief rests on the fact that there is a driving force, a source of energy, responsible for life and all existence. Anything beyond this, such as the creation of specific deities, are just means of personifying this so that "normal people" who don't sit around and meditate for 5 hours a day can have some form of understanding and something to latch on to. 

Are you going to debunk the Big Bang now? Physics tells us it couldn't have happened without some kind of energy input.

The only difference between what the leading edge of science is doing now and what people have been doing for ages is that scientists are trying to measure it with instrumentation, while wiser folks know that the human brain already has the capacity to access it.



mindphuk said:


> I must have missed this. What exactly has science shown to be true about divine energy?



Just that all matter, space, and time rest on top of a nearly limitless pool of energy, and that all matter is made of energy when broken down to its smallest components. This is pretty simple stuff, bro, and is precisely what crazy mystics and shamans have been babbling about for eons.


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## mindphuk (Oct 29, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Just that all matter, space, and time rest on top of a nearly limitless pool of energy, and that all matter is made of energy when broken down to its smallest components. This is pretty simple stuff, bro, and is precisely what crazy mystics and shamans have been babbling about for eons.


 It sounds like you're mixing science with pseudoscience. What limitless pool of energy are you referring to? How is any energy considered divine? The matter/energy equivalence is not something I have ever heard from any religious group. Tell me what religion, shamans, or mystics believed that energy and matter were interchangeable prior to Einstein? It sounds a lot like you're stretching beliefs to make them fit with modern science in much the same way some people here have tried to claim the bible is full of scientific truths.


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## Padawanbater2 (Oct 29, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> Im not a religion freak either, I used to be Southern Baptist, but I choose to just believe in God. As simple as that. As much as religion has been messed around with, its hard to know what is true in their teaching. So I choose to just simply believe He is up there.


You don't get to "choose" what you believe in. I don't know why so many religious people think they just get to pick and choose between what they think is reality and what's not. That isn't how LIFE works. REALITY is REALITY because there is no other way for it to be. That is what makes it REALITY. It is objective, even though your interpretation of it is subjective. That is why science is so useful, it takes all the subjective bits out of discerning what reality actually is. 

Think of it like this. An orange is sitting on top of a counter, OK, can you choose to believe the color of the orange is purple? No, you can't. Because whether you believe it's purple, blue, black, red, green, yellow or brown, it doesn't change the REALITY that the color is actually orange. 

Beliefs are not chosen. Please try to understand that and spread the word amongst religious people. That's honestly probably the 24th or 25th time I've sat here and explained online to someone (different person each time) why you don't get to choose your beliefs. 



karri0n said:


> Sorry bud, but religious experience has been measured in EEG scans as well. Electrochemical reactions in the brain are no more proof of the existence of love than they are proof of the existence of gods.


...what? Completely wrong and obviously so. "Religious experiences" are founded on emotional responses. It's what religion IS. So it would seem pretty obvious to me that if you stick an EEG helmet on someone believing they're speaking to God or meditating or praying or whatever, you'd pick up exactly the same kinds of measurements as someone experiencing some strong sense of emotion. 

EEG's are instruments designed to pick up low electrical impulses emitted by the brain and translate the information. We know emotions exist because we feel them everyday. This is completely different than measuring God. Emotions come from within, and the burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate how God influences EEG scanners.
 


karri0n said:


> Can you explain? The "core" of most religions comes down to a source of divine energy, the very base of what reality is built upon. Science has shown this to be true. Where is the Paradox?


You're using semantics and it feels to me like you're also being purposefully disingenuous about it. 

Skip the one LMG and I brought up... how bout this one...



If God exists, Satan exists
If God is eternally good, Satan is eternally evil
God rewards the good/righteous in the afterlife
Satan punishes the bad/unrighteous in the afterlife
Someone punishing a bad act is a form of justice and could be considered a good deed.
If Satan punished the good in the afterlife this would be evil but he punishes the wicked making him good
Satan does good acts.


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## Ragoozo (Oct 29, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> Well, think of it like this. Everyone wants some sort of physical proof that there is a God. Something you can see, touch, smell, taste whatever. You cannot see,touch, smell, or taste emotions, but they are there! We cannot see them, but we feel them none the less. Which proves to me that there are things beyond our knowledge and beyond us period.


 
Emotions are created by yourself, a 3rd eye depicting *waves* of life energy. Humans can create a religious experience by applying electricity to a certain lobe of the brain. If it can happen in an experiment without 3rd party interference, it WILL happen in real life. It's a(n) feeling/emotion that people do not understand yet. There isn't somebody looking down on you. It's yourself, your subconscious. What better coping mechanisim is there? Don't let everyday life depict your personality. Remember you were taught about religion by another human, God hasn't done anything for you.


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## karri0n (Oct 29, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> ...what? Completely wrong and obviously so. "Religious experiences" are founded on emotional responses. It's what religion IS. So it would seem pretty obvious to me that if you stick an EEG helmet on someone believing they're speaking to God or meditating or praying or whatever, you'd pick up exactly the same kinds of measurements as someone experiencing some strong sense of emotion.
> 
> EEG's are instruments designed to pick up low electrical impulses emitted by the brain and translate the information. We know emotions exist because we feel them everyday. This is completely different than measuring God. Emotions come from within, and the burden of proof lies with you to demonstrate how God influences EEG scanners.



 I didn't claim an EEG proves the existence of gods. That would be ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what I said. Deep meditative trance, communion with spirits, astral projection, all of these appear different on an EEG. What I said was that the response within the brain when someone communes with gods, prays, or THINKS they are communing with gods or praying can be quantified with a modern tool, the same as the one that has officially quantified and measured "love" according to the OP. If we are using this alone as the quantifying device, then neither love or religious experiences are any more real than one another and to claim anything else would be a complete fallacy against science.



Padawanbater2 said:


> You're using semantics and it feels to me like you're also being purposefully disingenuous about it.



I'm not arguing semantics at all. The poster obviously had no concept of what the core of spiritual practice was about. All these atheists are just as bad as the Christians proclaiming there is ONLY ONE TRUE WAY TO LIVE YOUR LIFE when they say things like "well obviously this miniscule part of one religion in a world of thousands of religions is obviously wrong, so all religion is complete and utter shit". On the surface, Christianity contains many paradoxes. This is what happens when you take the works of hundreds of different people, all talking about something subjective, and combine it into one volume,l change things around to suit your own(1500 year old) political needs, and then tell people to accept it objectively. This is not its core, and I hardly consider arguing the exact opposite of something to be "arguing semantics". I have a couple other friends who immediately say we're arguing semantics once they are shown that they are wrong too. 




Padawanbater2 said:


> Skip the one LMG and I brought up... how bout this one...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No argument here.

He fulfills an important need - that of the primal instincts and self preservation, vs. the morality and social obligatory functions of a Jesus/Yahweh archetype. He also provides a pretty good cop-out when Christians don't feel like owning up to their selfish animal actions. The few Satanists I've spoken with in my years were some of the most engaging and intelligent conversators that I've met, and certainly weren't "evil".

I certainly wouldn't consider yahweh "eternally good". If we take his book to be entirely true, just a small snippet of what we see is: The destruction and death of millions at soddom and gomorrah, the slaughter of all land-based life on earth barring the two of every species, The supposed instruction to his followers to destroy, rape, and convert every culture that didn't bow specifically to Him, Show me a being that is Jealous, wrathful, and possibly a bit insecure regarding his "omnipotence".



Satan and Yahweh said:


> Satan: Go ahead and steal, survival of the fittest baby!
> 
> Yahweh: How DARE you steal from a wealthy merchant to prevent your family from starvation? Burn in eternal torment, you vile sinner!




Which of these is more "evil"?


The concept of "Satan" in and of itself is a bastardization and an attempt by the Roman Catholic Church to get the pagans at the time to turn on their old gods when they were forcefully converted. There is a "Horned god" in essentially every pre-christian culture, almost unanimously linked with the animals of the forest as well as man's more primal instincts, the latter of which he is linked with even to this day in his most modern from, that being "satan". Cernunnos, Pan, Herne, Pashupati, Freyr, and countless others existed long before a concept of Satan. Even Carl Jung lists The Horned One as one of the important psychological archetypes, essentially hard-wired into our brains. People have seen this Horned One in dreams and visions for milennia, and his properties are, if slightly varying, always along the same core meaning, even in those that have no cultural frame of reference to have ever seen or heard of him.


Neither of the points that you addressed to me are contradictory to the position that I'm standing in, actually. You took the incorrect meaning from the first quote(where I stated that quantifying love has absolutely no bearing on whether or not gods exist), and then made a straw man about God and Satan. Not to mention, your straw man did not present any evidence to disprove their existence. It seems almost like you just assumed that I'm christian and thought that if you could somehow prove that satan was good, I would become an atheist? Not really sure where you were going with that, but I appreciate the dialog that it brought forth.


What I'm hearing from the two of you (mindphuk and padawanbater) is you truly believe that people are nothing more than pus-filled automatons, whose sheer existence is nothing more than a reactionary process to various physical, chemical, and electrical stimuli. That is fine and well, as science has yet to quantify consciousness in any meaningful way. However, if you do choose to adhere to this school of thought, can you tell me the origin of spontaneous creative thought?


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## karri0n (Oct 29, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> It sounds like you're mixing science with pseudoscience. What limitless pool of energy are you referring to? How is any energy considered divine? The matter/energy equivalence is not something I have ever heard from any religious group. Tell me what religion, shamans, or mystics believed that energy and matter were interchangeable prior to Einstein? It sounds a lot like you're stretching beliefs to make them fit with modern science in much the same way some people here have tried to claim the bible is full of scientific truths.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics

a. being the "pool"

b. being the current model, demonstrating that all matter exists as energy in its most basic state

Regarding the divinity of said energy, this depends on your world view. Some view everything as divine. I was speaking from a spiritual standpoint, in which said energy is viewed as divine. In science it is viewed as "existent". 

As far as other cultures before the advent of modern science knowing that the physical world sits on top of an energetic world, crazy people have been babbling about spirit worlds and lands that have no form other than wisps of energy and vacant space for as long as there have been people. The understanding is different and in some ways more thorough now, yes. The point is, the singular existence of one three dimensional plane with nothing that cannot be seen by the waking, naked eye has been thoroughly challenged by modern science, and there have been societies across millennia that have various different means of understanding this simple, fundamental truth that reality is far more complex than western science ever thought possible.


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## Padawanbater2 (Oct 29, 2010)

karri0n said:


> I didn't claim an EEG proves the existence of gods. That would be ridiculous. There's absolutely nothing wrong with what I said. Deep meditative trance, communion with spirits, astral projection, all of these appear different on an EEG. What I said was that the response within the brain when someone communes with gods, prays, or THINKS they are communing with gods or praying can be quantified with a modern tool, the same as the one that has officially quantified and measured "love" according to the OP.




The EEG is measuring the emotion, not where it comes from or how you get it. You are saying God influences peoples lives, the machine reads it, so it must be God. That's retarded, and I know you can see why. Like I said, the *source* of the emotion isn't what is being measured, it's the emotion itself. Whether or not God plays a roll is unknown. Burden of proof, again, lies with you to demonstrate it does. Till then, it doesn't. 




karri0n said:


> All these atheists are just as bad as the Christians proclaiming there is ONLY ONE TRUE WAY TO LIVE YOUR LIFE when they say things like "well obviously this miniscule part of one religion in a world of thousands of religions is obviously wrong, so all religion is complete and utter shit".




Dude, atheists don't lobby congress to get laws based on their own skewed perverted vision of morality passed. They don't make up 85% of the vote. 

And that's exactly what believers do, pick out piltdown man and scream "Evolution is FALSE!! That proves it!!" so give me a break with that one.. 




karri0n said:


> On the surface, Christianity contains many paradoxes. This is what happens when you take the works of hundreds of different people, all talking about something subjective, and combine it into one volume,l change things around to suit your own(1500 year old) political needs, and then tell people to accept it objectively. This is not its core, and I hardly consider arguing the exact opposite of something to be "arguing semantics". I have a couple other friends who immediately say we're arguing semantics once they are shown that they are wrong too.




You tell me what you consider to be the "core beliefs" of Christianity.




karri0n said:


> I certainly wouldn't consider yahweh "eternally good". If we take his book to be entirely true, just a small snippet of what we see is: The destruction and death of millions at soddom and gomorrah, the slaughter of all land-based life on earth barring the two of every species, The supposed instruction to his followers to destroy, rape, and convert every culture that didn't bow specifically to Him, Show me a being that is Jealous, wrathful, and possibly a bit insecure regarding his "omnipotence".


You seem to be taking some kind of "on the fence" sort of position. If Christianity isn't right, then it's wrong. 

It can't be both, so which is it?


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## mindphuk (Oct 29, 2010)

karri0n said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-point_energy
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mechanics
> 
> ...


I had a feeling that's where you were going with this. Zero-point energy is hardly a 'limitless pool' of energy and quantum field theory has nothing to do with the ramblings of mystics and shamans. You are just regurgitating the same new-age crap that uses a misunderstanding of science to promote their belief in a spiritual world. The advances of science does not give any credence to any of the claims that you appear to be making. You are distorting science to suit your agenda. I asked you to show me what religion or spiritual belief held the notion of energy and matter being equivalent prior to Einstein and all you can come up with is that "societies across millennia" without ever once giving an example.


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## mindphuk (Oct 29, 2010)

karri0n said:


> What I'm hearing from the two of you (mindphuk and padawanbater) is you truly believe that people are nothing more than pus-filled automatons, whose sheer existence is nothing more than a reactionary process to various physical, chemical, and electrical stimuli. That is fine and well, as science has yet to quantify consciousness in any meaningful way. However, if you do choose to adhere to this school of thought, can you tell me the origin of spontaneous creative thought?


And what I'm hearing from you is that you can't seem to refrain from creating a straw man. Where did I or Pad say anything about people being automatons? Do you really think that consciousness is impossible from a purely naturalistic perspective? Why do you feel the need to invoke unprovable assertions like the mind is separate from the brain and can exist outside of normal physical laws?


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## karri0n (Oct 31, 2010)

The EEG is measuring the emotion, not where it comes from or how you get it. You are saying God influences peoples lives, the machine reads it, so it must be God. That's retarded, and I know you can see why. Like I said, the *source* of the emotion isn't what is being measured, it's the emotion itself. Whether or not God plays a roll is unknown. Burden of proof, again, lies with you to demonstrate it does. Till then, it doesn't. 


Which is, once again, exactly what I said. The EEG results tell us nothing in this argument and that's the point I made by first mentioning it. I'm not sure why we're still on this one.


Dude, atheists don't lobby congress to get laws based on their own skewed perverted vision of morality passed. They don't make up 85% of the vote. 

And that's exactly what believers do, pick out piltdown man and scream "Evolution is FALSE!! That proves it!!" so give me a break with that one.. 


Are you seriously trying to tell me that atheists don't have an agenda, and that they never use the laws to pursue it? 

By "Just as bad", I mean the fact tthat both the atheist and the Christians seem to think that Christianity is the only faith in existence. Every argument you'vgiven me is something trying to debunk Christianity, which has nothing at all to do with the argument. This is akin to me claiming that all science is false and basing my arguments on debunking phrenology or alchemy.



You tell me what you consider to be the "core beliefs" of Christianity.


I've already stated this twice in the thread.... The core of any genuine spiritual practice lies in a connection with a pure and loving divine energy. Whether you consider this a collective consciousness, a god, a higher self, nirvana, heaven, or enlightenment isn't that important. Most genuine spiritual practices will also include some general guidlines for living your life such as being kind to others and basic moral and societal values.


You seem to be taking some kind of "on the fence" sort of position. If Christianity isn't right, then it's wrong. 

It can't be both, so which is it?

Sure, from a fundamentalist staindpoint, your argument makes sense. Once again, you're painting the world black and white, and once again, just as bad as fundamentalist christianity. Christianity has some good messages behind it, but a lot of it comes from a really sideways direction because it has been so affected by politics and agendas over the years. There are some sects of christianity, such as evangelism, that don't fous on anything spiritual at all but rather focus on making other people know that they are going to burn in hell. This is wrong. Some sects focus on morality and being kind to others, and tell you to work on yourself in a spiritual aspect. There is nothing wrong with that because it's a good message.


Whether it's athiest, christian, or muslim, fundamentalism is a bad thing.


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## Originalien (Nov 1, 2010)

http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/

WAKE UP SLAVE


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 2, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Which is, once again, exactly what I said. The EEG results tell us nothing in this argument and that's the point I made by first mentioning it. I'm not sure why we're still on this one.


Wait, what? That's not what you said... *this* is what you said;

"Sorry bud, but religious experience has been measured in EEG scans as well. Electrochemical reactions in the brain are no more proof of the existence of love than they are proof of the existence of gods."

I'm not sure how someone would figure out how it's a "religious experience" (which by my definition would be represented by emotion) or just emotion. That's what I've been saying since the beginning, that there's no way to tell. To the person having the experience, yeah, it might be what they would consider "religious", but the machine wouldn't be able to tell that, all it would pick up is the spike in emotion. 

Since we're on the same page about that now, let's move on.



karri0n said:


> Are you seriously trying to tell me that atheists don't have an agenda, and that they never use the laws to pursue it?


Everybody has an agenda. The Christian agenda doesn't pass the equal rights test. 

Atheists have zero power in Washington, don't kid yourself. 
 


karri0n said:


> By "Just as bad", I mean the fact tthat both the atheist and the Christians seem to think that Christianity is the only faith in existence. Every argument you'vgiven me is something trying to debunk Christianity, which has nothing at all to do with the argument. This is akin to me claiming that all science is false and basing my arguments on debunking phrenology or alchemy.


Why does this matter? I touch on this pretty often too with believers, how is it not obvious to you guys? We (as far as I know, who knows, maybe I'm wrong about this, in which case I think you'd have a pretty valid point, and I'd admit I made an ass out of myself) live in the United States. I live in California, it's regarded as pretty secular, if not the most secular state in the union and still, 90% of the people in my own personal life are CHRISTIAN. Not MUSLIM, not JEWISH, CHRISTIAN. So when I address religious people or religious questions, in my mind, much like guessing on a test, I go with what's the most likely answer, in this case, the default is usually Christian. If I walked around talking about Islam, what do you think would happen? 90% of the people WOULD AGREE WITH ME that it's nuts. Those same people don't see the flaws in Christianity, because that's what they believe. That's where I come in  

Don't get me wrong, I think all of them are *equally as incorrect*, it's just that we live amongst a sea of Christians that don't like to be told they're wrong. 
 


karri0n said:


> I've already stated this twice in the thread.... The core of any genuine spiritual practice lies in a connection with a pure and loving divine energy. Whether you consider this a collective consciousness, a god, a higher self, nirvana, heaven, or enlightenment isn't that important. Most genuine spiritual practices will also include some general guidlines for living your life such as being kind to others and basic moral and societal values.


No, one of the core tenets of Christianity is in one form or another "accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and ask for forgiveness for your sins". Has nothing to do with "divine energy". I've never heard any Christian talk about a "divine energy". Just like MP said, it does sound a lot like new age type language. 

I'm curious, what are your actual beliefs karri0n?



karri0n said:


> Sure, from a fundamentalist staindpoint, your argument makes sense. Once again, you're painting the world black and white, and once again, just as bad as fundamentalist christianity. Christianity has some good messages behind it, but a lot of it comes from a really sideways direction because it has been so affected by politics and agendas over the years. There are some sects of christianity, such as evangelism, that don't fous on anything spiritual at all but rather focus on making other people know that they are going to burn in hell. This is wrong. Some sects focus on morality and being kind to others, and tell you to work on yourself in a spiritual aspect. There is nothing wrong with that because it's a good message.
> 
> 
> Whether it's athiest, christian, or muslim, fundamentalism is a bad thing.


Arguing adamantly for reason and logic is not "atheist fundamentalism". 

It's seriously bullshit how people say that type of stuff about what Dawkins does. People like him, and me, and MP, are sitting here saying "lets find the collective truth together, here are our tools, lets test shit, experiment, learn, test again, observe, research, we can do it if we work together", while religious people say "we already have the answers, trust us, we're absolutely positive this is the way existence works, there's no need for science, we already have the answers, that stuff isn't right, it's just there to confuse you and test your faith"... 

Science and education has been oppressed by religion for centuries. I'm only speaking for myself, but I know Dawkins feels the same way, but fuck that, I'm done with that shit. You want to tell me I'm wrong, OK that's fine, that's fuckin' GREAT actually, I LOVE being proved wrong, but that's the thing, you have to fuckin' PROVE it. If you don't come with proof, don't come at all, because that's what I'm interested in. And if you don't know the definition of proof, go learn it first because he said she said anecdotal stories aren't proof of anything. A 2,000 year old book isn't proof of anything. A shroud from the middle ages isn't proof of anything. 

Proof is the fused gene in our genetic code that says we share a common ancestor with great apes. Proof is DNA, it's vestigial organs, it's the genetic code to make teeth in chickens. That is proof.


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## karri0n (Nov 2, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Everybody has an agenda. The Christian agenda doesn't pass the equal rights test.
> 
> Atheists have zero power in Washington, don't kid yourself.


The Atheist agenda doesn't promote Equal Rights either. Children are disallowed from praying privately in school(though special exceptions are made for muslim children), people putting up religious symbols on their own property are sued to remove it because someone might see it. It's absolute BS to claim that the atheist movement has no political power. Your assertion of Equal rights is correct in that atheists seem to be fond of all religions having equal right to be oppressed(except Islam, of course, they are special.) 



Padawanbater2 said:


> Why does this matter? I touch on this pretty often too with believers, how is it not obvious to you guys? We (as far as I know, who knows, maybe I'm wrong about this, in which case I think you'd have a pretty valid point, and I'd admit I made an ass out of myself) live in the United States. I live in California, it's regarded as pretty secular, if not the most secular state in the union and still, 90% of the people in my own personal life are CHRISTIAN. Not MUSLIM, not JEWISH, CHRISTIAN. So when I address religious people or religious questions, in my mind, much like guessing on a test, I go with what's the most likely answer, in this case, the default is usually Christian. If I walked around talking about Islam, what do you think would happen? 90% of the people WOULD AGREE WITH ME that it's nuts. Those same people don't see the flaws in Christianity, because that's what they believe. That's where I come in
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I think all of them are *equally as incorrect*, it's just that we live amongst a sea of Christians that don't like to be told they're wrong.


No, I don't think so. Especially in CA, if you went around saying a bunch of things about Islam, you'd get quite a few people ostracizing you and calling you a bigot.



Padawanbater2 said:


> No, one of the core tenets of Christianity is in one form or another "accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and ask for forgiveness for your sins". Has nothing to do with "divine energy". I've never heard any Christian talk about a "divine energy". Just like MP said, it does sound a lot like new age type language.
> 
> I'm curious, what are your actual beliefs karri0n?


Closer, but you still aren't at the core. Accept Jesus as your lord and Savior and absolve your sins, yes. However, the concept of "sin" is one that was made up by people in power to control the masses. This is very far from the spiritual core of the religion. What is it that Jesus really wanted to teach? Unconditional love for yourself and fellow man. What is it that _good_ priests and nuns teach? Connection with Jesus, who is, in this faith, the personification of divinity and unconditional love. 

As far as my own beliefs, that's difficult to quantify. A vastly broad term for my spiritual practice is Pagan. I value learning as much about religion and spirituality as possible, from as many diverse sources as possible. I look at the every day world and strive to see the divinity in everything from the world around me to the choices that people make. From outside I'm sure you could view me as "new age", but of the people I know I'm one of the first to point out when someone is blathering on about some ridiculous new age crap. As I've pointed out previously, I think modern science has a whole lot of good in it in regards to the parallels we can see in science and spirituality. I value learning above most anything else in spiritual practice, I think of family to be extremely important, and I tend to follow a basic code of morality including truth, honor, fair treatment of others, and respect for the natural world.



Padawanbater2 said:


> Arguing adamantly for reason and logic is not "atheist fundamentalism".
> 
> It's seriously bullshit how people say that type of stuff about what Dawkins does. People like him, and me, and MP, are sitting here saying "lets find the collective truth together, here are our tools, lets test shit, experiment, learn, test again, observe, research, we can do it if we work together", while religious people say "we already have the answers, trust us, we're absolutely positive this is the way existence works, there's no need for science, we already have the answers, that stuff isn't right, it's just there to confuse you and test your faith"...
> 
> ...


I hate the "logic and reason" BS that atheists throw out there. These people are pushing something that hasn't been proven, just as the religious folks are doing. These tag lines are as ridiculous as "pro choice", "pro life", or "patriot act". Nobody is anti life, nobody is anti choice, and there's nothing patriotic about the latter. Please refrain from use of propaganda tag lines in the future.

Claiming with absolute certainty that your position is correct to the point that there can be no truth in any other position is fundamentalism. If Dawkins' and other Atheists' message were truly "Hey let's learn, guys!" and not "God is bullshit!", I wouldn't have a problem. This isn't the case, though. The stance that Dawkins and Bill Maher take is one that claims they can KNOW that there are no gods, but are incapable of providing proof beyond what basically boils down to anecdotal evidence. You're kidding yourself if you think all the "research" being done is with a blank slate, and not with a preconceived nod towards an atheistic viewpoint

Evolution isn't really related in this discussion. I have no doubt of the process of evolution or natural selection, but even it hasn't been proven absolute. Even if evolution were proven, the only thing that shows is the obviously wrong notion within Christianity regarding the age of the planet.

I'm very much interested in your "proof" as well. Prove the nonexistence of Gods. Come with proof or don't come at all. My position is already proven, as Gods as you know them exist as concepts created by man - personifications made to understand something that really can't be conceived of by our minds - especially to more primitive peoples. If you know of them, if they've been named, if they have attributes attributed to them, they exist.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 2, 2010)

karri0n said:


> The Atheist agenda doesn't promote Equal Rights either. Children are disallowed from praying privately in school(though special exceptions are made for muslim children), people putting up religious symbols on their own property are sued to remove it because someone might see it. It's absolute BS to claim that the atheist movement has no political power. Your assertion of Equal rights is correct in that atheists seem to be fond of all religions having equal right to be oppressed(except Islam, of course, they are special.)


This whole post is disingenuous and you know it. Children aren't allowed to pray in public schools? Bullshit. That propaganda has been pushed from the religious right since they removed *teacher led MANDATORY *prayer in *public* schools in 1962. Kids can pray all they want *privately*, they just don't. 

People are sued for putting up religious symbols on their own property? That sounds like bullshit too. I would have a problem with that, and I'm a fuckin' atheist. Prove your statement, give me one source, please.

What's the atheist lobby in DC called? You know, like how they have 

the ACLA - http://www.americancla.org/acla_home_page.html 

the CCA - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Coalition_of_America 

the CRF - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coalition_for_Religious_Freedom

the TVC - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Coalition_for_Traditional_Values

or the MM - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_Majority 
 


karri0n said:


> No, I don't think so. Especially in CA, if you went around saying a bunch of things about Islam, you'd get quite a few people ostracizing you and calling you a bigot.


Not where I live. Most people around here believe Christianity is right, so that pretty much rules out Islam. 



karri0n said:


> As far as my own beliefs, that's difficult to quantify. A vastly broad term for my spiritual practice is Pagan. I value learning as much about religion and spirituality as possible, from as many diverse sources as possible. *I look at the every day world and strive to see the divinity in everything from the world around me to the choices that people make.* From outside I'm sure you could view me as "new age", but of the people I know I'm one of the first to point out when someone is blathering on about some ridiculous new age crap. As I've pointed out previously, I think modern science has a whole lot of good in it in regards to the parallels we can see in science and spirituality. I value learning above most anything else in spiritual practice, I think of family to be extremely important, and I tend to follow a basic code of morality including *truth*, honor, *fair treatment of others*, and *respect for the natural world*.


You point out later in this post how people like Dawkins approach science, but look at what you just admitted to. You approach the world and "strive to see divinity in everything". Conflict of interest in seeking truth much? Be honest with yourself man.

Christianity doesn't tell the truth, it doesn't promote fair treatment of others and it doesn't respect the natural world. This life is a stepping stone for the next one.



karri0n said:


> I hate the "logic and reason" BS that atheists throw out there. These people are pushing something that hasn't been proven, just as the religious folks are doing. These tag lines are as ridiculous as "pro choice", "pro life", or "patriot act". Nobody is anti life, nobody is anti choice, and there's nothing patriotic about the latter. Please refrain from use of propaganda tag lines in the future.


What are atheists pushing that hasn't been proven?
 


karri0n said:


> Claiming with absolute certainty that your position is correct to the point that there can be no truth in any other position is fundamentalism. If Dawkins' and other Atheists' message were truly "Hey let's learn, guys!" and not "God is bullshit!", I wouldn't have a problem. This isn't the case, though. The stance that Dawkins and Bill Maher take is one that claims they can KNOW that there are no gods, but are incapable of providing proof beyond what basically boils down to anecdotal evidence. You're kidding yourself if you think all the "research" being done is with a blank slate, and not with a preconceived nod towards an atheistic viewpoint


No atheist I know has ever said "No God exists", ever, including Dawkins. The most common atheistic position to take is "I don't know if a god exists". If someone told me "God is bullshit!" I would say "you're probably right, but how do you *know*?". There is *no such thing as absolute certainty in science*. Absolute certainty is for the religious. Dawkins is one of the worlds leading scientists, he teaches Biology at Cambridge for Christs sake, he knows he cannot know for sure if there is a god, his position is it's irrelevant to our lives one way or the other.

The data and research collected *will always point towards an atheistic viewpoint* because of Occams razor, not because science is trying to "disprove God" (which is impossible)...
 


karri0n said:


> Evolution isn't really related in this discussion. I have no doubt of the process of evolution or natural selection, but even it hasn't been proven absolute. Even if evolution were proven, the only thing that shows is the obviously wrong notion within Christianity regarding the age of the planet.


Explain to me what you mean when you say "proven absolute" because like I said before, *nothing in science is absolute*. This is a clear indication you're looking at it the wrong way. Evolution is proven to the highest degree of provability in science, the theory will not get any stronger than it is right now. 



karri0n said:


> I'm very much interested in your "proof" as well. Prove the nonexistence of Gods. Come with proof or don't come at all. My position is already proven, as Gods as you know them exist as concepts created by man - personifications made to understand something that really can't be conceived of by our minds - especially to more primitive peoples. If you know of them, if they've been named, if they have attributes attributed to them, they exist.


Another clear indication you're approaching the whole thing incorrectly. You asking me to "disprove God" is like me asking you to disprove the invisible fire breathing dragon in my garage. So go ahead, prove the "nonexistence" of my invisible fire breathing dragon. 

You can't disprove a negative. You have to prove god exists before I can disprove it. There's zero proof of any god because they all *require faith* to believe. 

Existing in reality and existing as a concept in the mind are two completely different things.


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## karri0n (Nov 2, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> This whole post is disingenuous and you know it. Children aren't allowed to pray in public schools? Bullshit. That propaganda has been pushed from the religious right since they removed *teacher led MANDATORY *prayer in *public* schools in 1962. Kids can pray all they want *privately*, they just don't.
> 
> People are sued for putting up religious symbols on their own property? That sounds like bullshit too. I would have a problem with that, and I'm a fuckin' atheist. Prove your statement, give me one source, please.
> 
> ...


The ACLU has filed MANY lawsuits under the guise of "separation of church and state" that seek to do nothing more than boot things they see as christian out of peoples' lives(when the people involved really didn't give a hoot if there was a cross on something or not), and has more resources than any of the lobbies you mentioned, but if you want something that explicitly labels itself as atheist, we have a couple here:

Secular Coalition for America: http://www.secular.org

American Atheists, Inc., which was responsible for a lawsuit mandating the removal of 12 memorials for fallen Utah highway patrol officers, because the memorials had crosses on them.



Padawanbater2 said:


> You point out later in this post how people like Dawkins approach science, but look at what you just admitted to. You approach the world and "strive to see divinity in everything". Conflict of interest in seeking truth much? Be honest with yourself man.


Ok you got me here - I suppose a better word than "strive to" is I *do* see the divinity within everything - because it's there. That doesn't change the perception - 2 + 2 does not equal 5 just because I might view every day life to be more sacred than you do.

[/COLOR]


Padawanbater2 said:


> Christianity doesn't tell the truth, it doesn't promote fair treatment of others and it doesn't respect the natural world. This life is a stepping stone for the next one.


Orthodox, power-hungry, Church, inc. doesn't. You are very right about that and I'll stand beside you all day regarding the fallacies and evils of the Christian establishment, but once again you're reverting to a "christian or nothing" mindset. 

Jesus' message itself, however, does promote these. He didn't necessarily want people to "go green", as everything on this earth was "put here for us", but a general respect for the gifts from god as well as your fellow man was expected.




Padawanbater2 said:


> No atheist I know has ever said "No God exists", ever, including Dawkins. The most common atheistic position to take is "I don't know if a god exists".




This is just outright incorrect. What you're talking about is Agnosticism. I was going to address this earlier because I had a feeling you thought atheism meant agnosticism. It is for this reason that before very recently, Atheist was a derogatory term. Now that it's hipster to be an atheist, people start calling themselves that, but when questioned, state this "we can't know" stuff, which is agnosticism. Agnosticism is certainly an intelligent position to take if you don't have a compelling reason to believe, and I have no problem whatsoever with this stance. The fact that you are even taking part in this discussion, however, tells me you are more atheist than agnostic. Authoring a book titled "The God Delusion" is certainly close enough to "no god exists" as well, by my standards. Bill Maher has also said things remarkably close to "no god exists" in exact verbiage.




Padawanbater2 said:


> Explain to me what you mean when you say "proven absolute" because like I said before, *nothing in science is absolute*. This is a clear indication you're looking at it the wrong way. Evolution is proven to the highest degree of provability in science, the theory will not get any stronger than it is right now.


It's not going to get any stronger than it is right now? So we're going to halt all paleontological research and exploration? Give me break. The theory of evolution is strong but discovery is not going to stop any time soon. We find new discoveries in the fossil record every day, and to this day we haven't found the "missing link" to modern humans. I'm not going to argue about evolution because it's been done already in this thread, and like I said, It's stupid to doubt it with all of the evidence we have. I did just remember something that throws a pretty big wrench in the current timeline that we have regarding the evolution of modern humans, though:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hueyatlaco




Padawanbater2 said:


> Another clear indication you're approaching the whole thing incorrectly. You asking me to "disprove God" is like me asking you to disprove the invisible fire breathing dragon in my garage. So go ahead, prove the "nonexistence" of my invisible fire breathing dragon.
> 
> You can't disprove a negative. You have to prove god exists before I can disprove it. There's zero proof of any god because they all *require faith* to believe.




Proving or disproving something that isn't tangible isn't going to happen with the current instrumentation. I was demonstrating a point that it currently can't be disproven or proven.



Padawanbater2 said:


> Existing in reality and existing as a concept in the mind are two completely different things.


Actually, this is an indication that _*you*_ are approaching the whole thing incorrectly. Physical intangibility is not the same as nonexistence. Define "reality". If you're talking purely about something physical, then I would think the fact that bodies don't levitate out of the ground after burial has already completely debunked any idea of Heaven. I can speak with my gods. I can glean insights from them that I could not do for myself. I can see, hear, feel, smell, and presumably taste them. I'm not the only person who does this. If I want to speak to a specific deity, and they are willing to speak with me, I can, and that deity has the same attributes that someone else would see when speaking to them. MY reality exists not just in the physical, but in my thoughts, emotions, and spiritual impressions as well.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 3, 2010)

karri0n said:


> The ACLU has filed MANY lawsuits under the guise of "separation of church and state" that seek to do nothing more than boot things they see as christian out of peoples' lives(when the people involved really didn't give a hoot if there was a cross on something or not), and has more resources than any of the lobbies you mentioned, but if you want something that explicitly labels itself as atheist, we have a couple here:
> 
> Secular Coalition for America: http://www.secular.org
> 
> American Atheists, Inc., which was responsible for a lawsuit mandating the removal of 12 memorials for fallen Utah highway patrol officers, because the memorials had crosses on them.


karri0n, look.. Church and state should always be separate, even if you are religious. Our forefathers got that one right, a short walk through history will confirm that. This is something we'd have to talk about on a case by case basis, and I hope you believe me this isn't a cop out, I just don't have time for that, so, moving on...

But one point I'd like to make, and I don't see any way someone could deny this, is that Christians have the *most* political influence in Washington today. By far.



karri0n said:


> Ok you got me here - I suppose a better word than "strive to" is I do see the divinity within everything - *because it's there*. That doesn't change the perception - 2 + 2 does not equal 5 just because I might view every day life to be more sacred than you do.


That's an absolute statement. You can't know that, this is what you believe.



karri0n said:


> This is just outright incorrect. What you're talking about is Agnosticism. I was going to address this earlier because I had a feeling you thought atheism meant agnosticism. It is for this reason that before very recently, Atheist was a derogatory term. Now that it's hipster to be an atheist, people start calling themselves that, but when questioned, state this "we can't know" stuff, which is agnosticism. Agnosticism is certainly an intelligent position to take if you don't have a compelling reason to believe, and I have no problem whatsoever with this stance. The fact that you are even taking part in this discussion, however, tells me you are more atheist than agnostic. Authoring a book titled "The God Delusion" is certainly close enough to "no god exists" as well, by my standards. Bill Maher has also said things remarkably close to "no god exists" in exact verbiage.


I'm an agnostic atheist, in that I don't know if any gods exist, as I've explained before, I can't travel the universe searching and turning over every rock, so I can't possibly make such an absolute statement with any kind of certainty, and I also believe that no gods do in fact exist because they don't make any logical sense in my mind. The problems that come along with *certainty, absolute knowledge, absolute justice*, pretty much all of any gods characteristics are too paradoxical to answer. People say we just can't or aren't supposed to understand the way God works, I say that's bullshit. What, we can think up all the way to the point of asking the question, but we just can't ever answer it? Simply retarded from any standpoint.

It's not "hipster" to be atheist. It's still pretty taboo actually, on par with being homosexual. I still get gasps when I reveal I'm an atheist, even to friends.

Agnosticism is *the only honest* position to take. My atheism stems from thoughts past agnosticism. 

First it was "God is Bullshit!!" - then you changed it to "no gods exist" - when it's always been "The God Delusion", which is not the same as saying "no gods exist". Have you read it? I have. Dawkins makes the case for *why people *believe in gods, he's a biologist, not a theologian. 

Dawkins approach to science and education is no different than any science teacher in school growing up. It's just that people are too comfortable with their *beliefs* that they can't stand to hear the truth of reality that tells them their beliefs are not consistent with what we observe. When we're kids, we have the teacher to tell us what's right and wrong, and most of us don't argue, because we know the science teacher is a hell of a lot smarter than we are, I just don't get why some adults with no formal training in biology or anything past a high school science education think they know more than *the worlds leading expert on biological studies*. People who don't recognize that as a serious problem are kidding themselves. This attitude commits an incredible injustice to the future generations of people on this planet, not to mention all the people who are already here.

Fairy tales fuck up the planet, and people like Dawkins, me, MP, Harris, Hitchens, etc. have had enough of it. 




karri0n said:


> It's not going to get any stronger than it is right now? So we're going to halt all paleontological research and exploration? Give me break. The theory of evolution is strong but discovery is not going to stop any time soon.


What I meant by that was that the level of acceptance among the public will not get any stronger than it is right now. We'll discover more fossils, more links, but the same people who oppose the theory of evolution right now will use the exact same unscientific techniques to "debunk" whatever we find that goes against their beliefs. We could find a *clear, OBVIOUS *fossil link from modern apes and humans to a common ancestor, which *we have, dozens of times*, and they'd still deny it, *just like they have, doezens of times*. 




karri0n said:


> We find new discoveries in the fossil record every day, and to this day we haven't found the "missing link" to modern humans.


There is no such thing as a "missing link" between modern humans and great apes. Let me explain why;

1. 1910 - A....B.....C.....D....E.....F

2. 1950 - A...B.....b....C....D.....E.....F

3. 2003 - A....a.....B.....b....C....D.....e.....E....F

In this example, take a look at line 1. A,B,C,D,E,F are fossils that have been discovered up until 1910

Now, line 2 takes us 40 years in the future, and by 1950, take a look, we've discovered a new fossil to add to the list, represented by "b"

Continuing on, line 3 jumps another 53 years into the future all the way to 2003, and two more fossils have been discovered, represented by "a" and "e"

OK, so do you see what happens every time we discover a new fossil? Every single time we discover a "missing link" (which every single fossil, and in fact every single *living organism IS*) it creates two more gaps that need to be filled. A......B -> A.....a......B - one gap when two fossils are known, two gaps when three fossils are known, four gaps when five fossils are known, and on and on and on... the more we find, the more there are to find as every living thing is transitional to the next.

I hope that cleared it up.




karri0n said:


> I can speak with my gods. I can glean insights from them that I could not do for myself. I can see, hear, feel, smell, and presumably taste them. I'm not the only person who does this. If I want to speak to a specific deity, and they are willing to speak with me, I can, and that deity has the same attributes that someone else would see when speaking to them. MY reality exists not just in the physical, but in my thoughts, emotions, and spiritual impressions as well.


Objective reality is not the same as your subjective interpretation of it. Want proof? If I believe it's 5pm when it's actually 12am, it doesn't change the FACT that it's 12am. That is objective truth. There are many other objective truths, truth that doesn't depend on whether or not you or I believe it. 

You *think* you can speak with your gods. If that's not the case and you actually can, then why not ask things like "what is the meaning of life?" or "how did we get here?" and post up some godly responses?


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## crackerboy (Nov 3, 2010)

I am not responding to any one post, but rather to several statements that attempted to characterize all Christians and their beliefs. First of all not all Christians think that science is just a way that the devil try's to confuse us. Nor do all Christians believe that the earth is 6000 years old. I am a Christian and a science major. My degree is in electrical engineering and required two calculus based physics classes. I simply believe that what we call science is just another revelation given to us by God so that we may understand him. God is just revealing to us how he accomplished his work. Not all Christians believe that the Bible was intended to be a time line. I personally believe that if the Bible was to be used as a historical time line than it would have been put together that way. But when you read the Bible from front to back it does not tell the stories that way. God is eternal and so is time. Our simple concepts of time are irrelevant to God. Instead we should look at the purpose of the stories in the Bible. Christians and scientists alike believe in the big bang theory. Christians just believe that bang came from God. So quit putting all Christians into a category with the most extreme conservatives. Do more research and try to understand the different interpretations. It's as offensive as me saying all atheist must be gay because a few support gay rights or that I once knew an atheist that screwed sheep so all atheists are sheep fuckers. See my point?


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## goodeye2113 (Nov 3, 2010)

are you calling god a emotion?


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## mindphuk (Nov 3, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> It's as offensive as me saying all atheist must be gay because a few support gay rights or that I once knew an atheist that screwed sheep so all atheists are sheep fuckers. See my point?


 There's a problem with your analogy in that atheists didn't create a book that claims that in order to be atheist you must fuck sheep. You can try to rationalize the bible all you want but the fact is that it is supposed to be an account of the history of a god and his preferred desert tribe and how he sent his literal son, who also is himself, to be sacrificed for the vicarious redemption of his followers. Try to soften it all you want but the people that are most anti-science are religious fundamentalists, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish. Trying to come out and say, "but not _AALLLL _Christians are this way" ignores the main point and the reasons that many atheists get upset at Christians that influence science education and laws. I could care less if you have a kinder, gentler version of Christianity, Christine O'Donnell and others like her are the ones grabbing power. SHE believes in literal 6 day creation, SHE believes in an earth history of only 6-10,000 years, SHE wants to introduce special creation into the science curriculum of schools.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 3, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> I simply believe that what we call science is just another revelation given to us by God so that we may understand him. God is just revealing to us how he accomplished his work.


You illustrate another really common trait among believers. Most of the ones I know also do the same thing. They believe what they believe, usually the foundation is pretty similar as they've all been told the basic stories of Christianity and some have a vague idea of names, and when questioned about it, I usually get a response similar to "well, it's just what I believe.." and the conversation moves on to the _right_ to believe whatever one wants, which they already know I'll agree with. 

Anyway, all that brings me to a question for you.. If faith is a requirement for salvation, that is, not knowing for sure one way or the other that the religion you're following is the correct one, then why would God choose to reveal anything to humanity? Wouldn't that render existence on Earth meaningless? 

If you believe what you say you do, that God uses science to reveal how he works so humanity can better understand him then how do you reconcile that with the concept of faith present in all the major religions?



crackerboy said:


> Instead we should look at the purpose of the stories in the Bible.


Why can't people learn the moral lessons the Bible teaches without everything else?



crackerboy said:


> So quit putting all Christians into a category with the most extreme conservatives. Do more research and try to understand the different interpretations. It's as offensive as me saying all atheist must be gay because a few support gay rights or that I once knew an atheist that screwed sheep so all atheists are sheep fuckers. See my point?


Doesn't the fact that every time someone mentions the cult sect of the religion and everybody else immediately distances themselves from any of their crazy views mean anything to you? 

Those crazy ones, the ones you guys all distance yourselves from... they're the ones who are actually following the religion. What it actually says. If you bothered to read it, you'd know that. When I talk about religion, those are the idiots I'm talking about. The Westboro Baptist people. The fanatics. The people who follow the shit word for word. 

Passive Christianity makes up 99% of Christians. They don't pray regularly, they don't read the Bible, they don't know the names of the four Gospels... But they check the ''x'' next to Christian whenever applicable to feel the little tickle in the morality sector in their brain because they've been conditioned to feel that way. 

Yes those people are idiots, yes they feed the fire that is fanatical Christianity, and yes they're completely fuckin' oblivious to it...


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## crackerboy (Nov 3, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> There's a problem with your analogy in that atheists didn't create a book that claims that in order to be atheist you must fuck sheep. You can try to rationalize the bible all you want but the fact is that it is supposed to be an account of the history of a god and his preferred desert tribe and how he sent his literal son, who also is himself, to be sacrificed for the vicarious redemption of his followers. Try to soften it all you want but the people that are most anti-science are religious fundamentalists, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish. Trying to come out and say, "but not _AALLLL _Christians are this way" ignores the main point and the reasons that many atheists get upset at Christians that influence science education and laws. I could care less if you have a kinder, gentler version of Christianity, Christine O'Donnell and others like her are the ones grabbing power. SHE believes in literal 6 day creation, SHE believes in an earth history of only 6-10,000 years, SHE wants to introduce special creation into the science curriculum of schools.



We call those people legalistic. I'm not trying to soften anything up. I am just trying to get you to quit trying to make all Christians sound like extremest idiots that have no concept reality. I know several Christians that will talk physics with you all day. How is creation any less viable of an argument than any other? Its funny how no one has a problem with a school teaching Socrates or any other philosophy and just accept them, but when it comes to religion you just don't want to hear it. The reason you don't want to hear it is because it points out your flaws. It exposes you to yourself and you don't like what you see. So its just easier to ignore it.


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## crackerboy (Nov 3, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> You illustrate another really common trait among believers. Most of the ones I know also do the same thing. They believe what they believe, usually the foundation is pretty similar as they've all been told the basic stories of Christianity and some have a vague idea of names, and when questioned about it, I usually get a response similar to "well, it's just what I believe.." and the conversation moves on to the _right_ to believe whatever one wants, which they already know I'll agree with.
> 
> Anyway, all that brings me to a question for you.. If faith is a requirement for salvation, that is, not knowing for sure one way or the other that the religion you're following is the correct one, then why would God choose to reveal anything to humanity? Wouldn't that render existence on Earth meaningless?
> 
> ...



Yep, all of the above is why I always encourage people to read for them selves. The Bible was not written for one man to read and interpret it for everyone else. It was meant to be shared by all. The reason you get extremest is because a group of people sit and listen to this one persons corrupt version of the Bible. There is no doubt that man has used the Bible for personal gain. But man in general will do that with everything he touches.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 4, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Its funny how no one has a problem with a school teaching Socrates or any other philosophy and just accept them, but when it comes to religion you just don't want to hear it. The reason you don't want to hear it is because it points out your flaws. It exposes you to yourself and you don't like what you see. So its just easier to ignore it.


You can't possibly believe that. Tell me why I wouldn't want to be exposed to my flaws? crackerboy, if I have a flaw, I* want *to know about it, you know why? So that I can *fix it*. Why would I want to carry around a flaw or a belief that I know isn't true? 

When it comes to religion, it promotes inequality and divides people. All of them have an "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.


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## karri0n (Nov 4, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> When it comes to religion, it promotes inequality and divides people. *All of them* have an "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.


More generalizations. I don't think anyone is against my beliefs unless they specifically state such.


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## Swoopadedo (Nov 4, 2010)

This reminds me of a lecture from my first year of university in my psych class. The teacher asked, you can't see love how do we know it's there, to which I replied, "I wouldn't spend 5,000 dollars on a diamond ring if I didn't love that girl."


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 4, 2010)

karri0n said:


> More generalizations. I don't think anyone is against my beliefs unless they specifically state such.


 
And again, you have a _watered down _version of Christianity, as far as I can tell. 

Christians try to convert people to Christianity "you have to accept Jesus Christ and ask for forgiveness", a lot of them even do the door to door thing. 

Muslims - nuff said.

Devout Jews wont marry outside Judaism - again, nuff said.

I can probably already tell where you're gonna go with this, so let me just stop you there...

Atheists promote science, education, and facts, we don't try to convert anyone like religions do.


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## karri0n (Nov 4, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> And again, you have a _watered down _version of Christianity, as far as I can tell.


I'm now pretty sure you're either trolling or not reading the thread at all.

My faith bears no resemblance to Christianity - and I've stated multiple times in this thread that I'm not Christian. 



Also,

Would you marry someone devoutly religious? "Nuff Said"

You've spent several days arguing with someone, trying to prove a point to them that their beliefs are wrong. You're very much taking a "with us or against us" stance.

All I'm stating is that any set of beliefs someone has can be valid. Very much the opposite of with us or against us.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 4, 2010)

karri0n said:


> I'm now pretty sure you're either trolling or not reading the thread at all.
> 
> My faith bears no resemblance to Christianity - and I've stated multiple times in this thread that I'm not Christian.


You've been sitting here arguing from a Christian perspective the whole time..



karri0n said:


> Also,
> 
> Would you marry someone devoutly religious? "Nuff Said"



Yes. Fail. 

If I decided to get married at all that is. I wouldn't let personal beliefs get in the way of that. I would think she's wrong, but if I loved her, that wouldn't matter to me. 

On the other hand, my last prospect at a relationship with a girl something similar happened, except the girl was devoutly religious and her words were "that's one of my red flags for you" [being an atheist]. So what's that tell you? 



karri0n said:


> You've spent several days arguing with someone, trying to prove a point to them that their beliefs are wrong. You're very much taking a "with us or against us" stance.


The difference being I'm not going to kill you for holding different beliefs, I don't think that's the moral thing to do, I also don't think someone should be *tortured for eternity* for holding different beliefs than me. That seems pretty much like the opposite of moral humane treatment... 

Which was the point.
 


karri0n said:


> All I'm stating is that any set of beliefs someone has can be valid. Very much the opposite of with us or against us.


"Can be valid"... 

Explain what you mean.

How can objective truths be subjectively interpreted by two different people to be true? 

Ex. If you have a red ball in the middle of the room, and two people deciding what color it is, one picks blue and one picks red, they can't both be true. Just because one of them may _believe_ it's blue doesn't make it blue. The objective truth is that the ball is red.

Similarly, how many different people have many different interpretations of God, just like you do, how could they all possibly be true? And yet all of them, each believer that I've ever met has assured me *this is the truth*.


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## mistaphuck (Nov 5, 2010)

LorDeMO said:


> We can't see atoms but we know they exist. There are things the naked eye cannot see yes, but we can still find their existence.


we can see atoms..


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## crackerboy (Nov 5, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> You can't possibly believe that. Tell me why I wouldn't want to be exposed to my flaws? crackerboy, if I have a flaw, I* want *to know about it, you know why? So that I can *fix it*. Why would I want to carry around a flaw or a belief that I know isn't true?
> 
> When it comes to religion, it promotes inequality and divides people. All of them have an "if you're not with us, you're against us" mentality.



Nobody wants to believe that they are a bad person. People say I am a good person. I don't hurt anyone. I do good things for people sometimes. And to the human standard that's all probably true. But God holds us to a higher standard and its hard for us to deal with. The more you read the Bible the more it will point out things in life that you know you are not doing that you know you should be. When I say you I also mean myself. Sometimes it seems impossible to keep all those commandments. Which it is impossible and thats why He sent Jesus. If it was not for Jesus Sacrificing himself for us than we would all be screwed.


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## mindphuk (Nov 5, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> it is impossible and thats why He sent Jesus. If it was not for Jesus Sacrificing himself for us than we would all be screwed.


 Yet your all-powerful god couldn't come up with a better way than to perform his revelation in a backwater, superstitious part of the world, knowing that the end of times will not occur until man has peered inside the atom and back to the beginning of time? This ironically, also happens after your god told his people to be very skeptical of anyone claiming to be a messiah. He warned of magicians and sorcery to accomplish "miracles." Jews don't accept Jesus for one main reason, The Messiah is self-evident. The next King of Israel who rebuilds The Temple will be, by definition a messiah. They don't buy the do-over idea the Christians tried to pawn off, that these things will be accomplished during his "second coming." This flies in the face of prophecies in the OT which is why there are still many Jews that don't think Israel should be a state.


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## crackerboy (Nov 5, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Yet your all-powerful god couldn't come up with a better way than to perform his revelation in a backwater, superstitious part of the world, knowing that the end of times will not occur until man has peered inside the atom and back to the beginning of time? This ironically, also happens after your god told his people to be very skeptical of anyone claiming to be a messiah. He warned of magicians and sorcery to accomplish "miracles." Jews don't accept Jesus for one main reason, The Messiah is self-evident. The next King of Israel who rebuilds The Temple will be, by definition a messiah. They don't buy the do-over idea the Christians tried to pawn off, that these things will be accomplished during his "second coming." This flies in the face of prophecies in the OT which is why there are still many Jews that don't think Israel should be a state.





No actually Jesus perfectly fulfilled the prophecies. The Pharisees out of fear of loosing their power conspired to have Jesus killed. God used mans own corruption to fulfill his plan for the sacrifice. Buy yeah the Bible makes many statements about his people rejecting Him. When Jesus returned to his home town he was rejected. The Bible clearly covers these points. You talk about God doing all this in the midst of one of the most superstitious parts of the world, but that was the whole world. Where on earth at that time was there not any kind of superstitions. And Look in the midst of all the superstitions, religions, and Greek mythology Christianity rose to the top. It rose because of the great clarity it provided that all the others did not.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> No actually Jesus perfectly fulfilled the prophecies. The Pharisees out of fear of loosing their power conspired to have Jesus killed. God used mans own corruption to fulfill his plan for the sacrifice. Buy yeah the Bible makes many statements about his people rejecting Him. When Jesus returned to his home town he was rejected. The Bible clearly covers these points. You talk about God doing all this in the midst of one of the most superstitious parts of the world, but that was the whole world. Where on earth at that time was there not any kind of superstitions. And Look in the midst of all the superstitions, religions, and Greek mythology Christianity rose to the top. It rose because of the great clarity it provided that all the others did not.


 
ROFL! Learn your history buddy;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> ROFL! Learn your history buddy;
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_I



Yeah and what is your point with the Constantine bit. That was part of my point. Out of all the other religions and superstitions Christianity was by far the most powerful. It's easy to just post some random low blow insinuating that I just don't know my history. But some random link to wiki does not really prove a point to me. Come on out and make your point.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> And Look in the midst of all the superstitions, religions, and Greek mythology Christianity rose to the top. It rose because of the great clarity it provided that all the others did not.





crackerboy said:


> Yeah and what is your point with the Constantine bit. That was part of my point. Out of all the other religions and superstitions Christianity was by far the most powerful. It's easy to just post some random low blow insinuating that I just don't know my history. But some random link to wiki does not really prove a point to me. Come on out and make your point.


It didn't "rise to the top" because of it's great clarity... It rose to the top because it was mandated by the Emperor. That's why you (and millions like you) practice it. 

Want proof? Ratio of Christians in eastern lands not conquered by the Romans. 

Logic Win


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## mindphuk (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> No actually Jesus perfectly fulfilled the prophecies.


 Perfect would mean that he doesn't have to come back to finish them off. That's not even taking into account the apologists attempting to make prophecies fit that don't such as being from the lineage of David and being born of a virgin. Do you not find it odd that the earliest of the synoptic gospels has no mention of the virgin birth? Oh, what, did it slip his mind? The fact is that the writer of Matthew took Isaiah 7 and attempted to apply it to Jesus because at that time, kings were born of virgins (including Pharaohs and Roman Emperors). Yet Isaiah never mentions a virgin birth but is a mistranslation in a prophecy for King Ahaz. 
Let's see what else Jesus failed to fulfill- 


The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) Nope
Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4) Never became king of Israel. Other nation's leaders do not follow Jesus
The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) Nope.
He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8&#8211;10) Nope. This one requires more depth -- 

If Jesus is the messiah, then he could not have been born of a virgin; he would have had to have a father who was of the House of David, and 
f Jesus was born of a virgin, then he could not have been the messiah, because his father -- the Holy Spirit -- was not a human descendent of the House of David.
The Moshiach will be a man of this world, an observant Jew with "fear of God" (Isaiah 11:2) Okay, this one applies but it also applied to my grandfather, maybe he was the messiah
Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) Evil and tyranny still occur all over
Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) This thread demonstrates this is false. 
He will include and attract people from all cultures and nations (Isaiah 11:10) Okay, I'll give him this one
All Israelites will be returned to their homeland (Isaiah 11:12) Nope
Death will be swallowed up forever (Isaiah 25: Pretty sure there is still death
There will be no more hunger or illness, and death will cease (Isaiah 25: ditto
All of the dead will rise again (Isaiah 26:19) Zombie apocalypse!!!
The Jewish people will experience eternal joy and gladness (Isaiah 51:11) Ahh, no. 
He will be a messenger of peace (Isaiah 53:7) okay sure
Nations will recognize the wrongs they did Israel (Isaiah 52:13&#8211;53:5) Give me a count
The peoples of the world will turn to the Jews for spiritual guidance (Zechariah 8:23) I guess the Christians forgot to erase this one
The ruined cities of Israel will be restored (Ezekiel 16:55) nope
Weapons of war will be destroyed (Ezekiel 39:9) big no
The Temple will be rebuilt (Ezekiel 40) resuming many of the suspended _mitzvot _already discussed
He will then perfect the entire world to serve God together (Zephaniah 3:9)
Jews will know the Torah without Study (Jeremiah 31:33)
He will take the barren land and make it abundant and fruitful (Isaiah 51:3, Amos 9:13&#8211;15, Ezekiel 36:29&#8211;30, Isaiah 11:6&#8211;9)
Well, you get the picture. Of course your Christian teachers will tell you how he fulfilled all of the prophecies but the only retort that they can give when it's pointed out the prophecies that if fulfilled, would have made it obvious to everyone that he was truly the messiah, are the same ones that won't really be fulfilled until his return. I can just as easily claim my grandfather was the messiah and you will find out for sure when he returns to fulfill the rest. These unfulfilled prophecies are a glaring problem that are dismissed with the wave of the hand and fancy apologists "logic."


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

not to go off topic,but ive got a question ive still yet to have answered.why in any version of the bible...there is no speak of dinosaurs?im not talking serpents (snakes) which is really the only thing that is talked about in the bible as it comes to any type of reptilian species.now i would think if god make this planet and everything in it..then the first thing he put on this planet before humans should be brought up once or twice in the bible...considering this was a species that numbered in the billions...tons of them..walking around..eaten trees and other dinosaurs..that they would mention this species...since it got wiped off the face of the earth before we took over.why are they not mentioned....because they was not discovered yet in the time the bible was constructed....the first dinosaur genus wasnt even named until the 1820's.thats why the bible dont talk about them...man...that wrote and constructed the bible...didnt know about them...they havent dug that far down yet......my point being...seeing as god put them here...wiped them out...why is it never mentioned in any literature.thats info i would like to know...if he put them here..why did he take them out..and if he did that to dinosaurs...will he do it to us?


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

Your good at fogging the mirror. But I just wipe that crap away. I think there is more than enough here to prove my point. The Bible speaks for itself if you look with an open mind. Oh yeah he the Bible goes on to tell how the rest will be fulfilled. Take your time research them. 
So let me get this straight, you believe that kings and pharaohs were born of virgins but not Jesus. How does that work? 
*
Prophecy:* Seed of a woman 
*Old Testament Reference:* Genesis 3:14-15
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Galatians 4:4

*Prophecy:* From the Tribe of Judah (Juda)
*Old Testament Reference:* Genesis 49:10
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 3:33

*Prophecy:* Descendant of Abraham, Issac and Jacob
*Old Testament Reference:* Genesis 12:3, 17:17-19; Numbers 24:17
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 1:1-2,16; Luke 3:34, 38

*Prophecy:* Heir to the Throne of David
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 9:6-7
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 1:32

*Prophecy:* Anointed and Eternal 
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 45:6-7
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Hebrews 1:8-10

*Prophecy:* Jesus to be born in Bethlehem
*Old Testament Reference:* Micah 5:2
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 2:4-7

*Prophecy:* The time of Jesus' birth
*Old Testament Reference:* Daniel 9:24-25
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 2:1-5

*Prophecy:* Christ to be born of a virgin
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 7:13-14 
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 1:26-28, 30-31 

*Prophecy:* Lamentation for the killing of infants 
*Old Testament Reference:* Jeremiah 31:15
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 2:16-18

*Prophecy:* To be called out of Egypt
*Old Testament Reference:* Hosea 11:1
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 2:13-15

*Prophecy:* The way of the Lord prepared
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 40:3-4
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 3:2-5

*Prophecy:* A messenger to come before the Lord
*Old Testament Reference:* Malachi 3:1
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 7:24-27

*Prophecy:* A prophet would be raised up
*Old Testament Reference:* Deuteronomy 18:15
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Acts 3:19-20, 22

*Prophecy:* Declared to be a Son of God
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 2:7
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 3:13-17

*Prophecy:* Ministry centered in Galilee
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 9:1-2
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 4:12-16
*
Prophecy:* Jesus Christ would speak in parables
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 78:1-2
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 13:34-35

*Prophecy:* Jesus to bind up and heal the brokenhearted
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 61:1-3
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 4:17-21

*Prophecy:* A Priest after the order of Melchizedek
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 110:1,4
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Hebrews 5:5-6
*
Prophecy:* Despised, rejected and not believed, especially by the Jews 
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 53:1-4
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 1:11, 12:37-40; Luke 23:16-18
*
Prophecy:* Hated without reason 
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 35:19
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 15:24

*Prophecy:* Triumphal entry in Jerusalem
*Old Testament Reference:* Zechariah 9:9
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Mark 11:7-11

*Prophecy:* Praised by the mouth of babes
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 8:1-2
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 21:15-16

*Prophecy:* The Messiah would be cut off, but not for himself
*Old Testament Reference:* Daniel 9:25-27
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 11:49-52 

*Prophecy:* Betrayal of Jesus Christ by a close friend (Judas)
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 41:9
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Mark 14:10, Luke 22:47-48

*Prophecy:* Price paid to Judas for betraying Jesus 
*Old Testament Reference:* Zechariah 11:12 
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 26:14-15

*Prophecy:* What would be done with the betrayal money
*Old Testament Reference:* Zechariah 11:13
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:3, 5-7

*Prophecy:* Forsaken by His disciples 
*Old Testament Reference:* Zechariah 13:7
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Mark 14:50; Matthew 26:31
*
Prophecy:* False witnesses against Christ
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 27:12, 35:11
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 26:59-61; Mark 14:55-57

*Prophecy:* Jesus would not open his mouth (defend himself) against false accusations
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 53:7
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Mark 15:4-5, Matthew 27:13-14

*Prophecy:* Satan shall bruise Jesus' "heel"
*Old Testament Reference:* Genesis 3:15
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 19:18; John 12:31-33

*Prophecy:* His scourging predicted
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 50:6
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:26; Mark 15:15

*Prophecy:* His body would be brutalized 
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:16-17; Isaiah 52:14
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:26, 29-30; John 19:1-3

*Prophecy:* Jesus would be bruised and crucified for the sins of the world
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 53:4-6, 10-11
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Romans 5:6-8 

*Prophecy:* Shame, reproach and dishonor; adversaries before Him.
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 69:17-19
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:27-30

*Prophecy:* Feet and hands would be pierced
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:15-16; Zechariah 12:9-10
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 19:33-35, 20:25-27

*Prophecy:* He was numbered among the transgressors 
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 53:12
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 23:33

*Prophecy:* Some observers would shake their heads at him
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:7-8, 109:25
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:39-40

*Prophecy:* Reviled and mocked by the crowd
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:7-8
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:39-43; Luke 23:34-35
*
Prophecy:* Intercession for sinners and those killing him 
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 53:12
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 23:33-34

*Prophecy:* Parting of His garments and the casting of lots for them
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:18
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:35; John 19:23-24

*Prophecy:* Stared at Jesus on the cross
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:16-17
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:36, 55

*Prophecy:* Family and friends would observe
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 38:10-11
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 23:48-49; Matthew 27:55-56

*Prophecy:* Forsaken by God
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:1-2
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:45-46

*Prophecy:* His side would be pierced 
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 22:16; Zechariah 12:10 
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 19:34

*Prophecy:* Gave Him vinegar to drink
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 69:21
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:34; Mark 15:23; John 19:28-30

*Prophecy:* Christ would commit His spirit to the Father 
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 31:5
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Luke 23:46; John 19:30

*Prophecy:* Not one of His bones would be broken
*Old Testament Reference:* Exodus 12:43, 46; Psalm 34:19-20 
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 19:33-36

*Prophecy:* Jesus Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us
*Old Testament Reference:* Exodus 12:3, 5-6; Isaiah 53:7
*New Testament Fulfillment:* John 1:29; 1Corinthians 5:7; 1Peter 1:18-19

*Prophecy:* Jesus would be buried in the tomb of a rich man 
*Old Testament Reference:* Isaiah 53:8-9
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Matthew 27:57-60

*Prophecy:* Jesus would be resurrected 
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 16:10-11; Psalm 49:15
*New Testament Fulfillment:* Mark 16:5-6

*Prophecy:* His ascension to God&#8217;s right hand 
*Old Testament Reference:* Psalm 68:18
*New Testament Fulfillment:* 1Corinthians 15:3-6; Mark 16:19-20; Ephesians 4:8-10


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> not to go off topic,but ive got a question ive still yet to have answered.why in any version of the bible...there is no speak of dinosaurs?im not talking serpents (snakes) which is really the only thing that is talked about in the bible as it comes to any type of reptilian species.now i would think if god make this planet and everything in it..then the first thing he put on this planet before humans should be brought up once or twice in the bible...considering this was a species that numbered in the billions...tons of them..walking around..eaten trees and other dinosaurs..that they would mention this species...since it got wiped off the face of the earth before we took over.why are they not mentioned....because they was not discovered yet in the time the bible was constructed....the first dinosaur genus wasnt even named until the 1820's.thats why the bible dont talk about them...man...that wrote and constructed the bible...didnt know about them...they havent dug that far down yet......my point being...seeing as god put them here...wiped them out...why is it never mentioned in any literature.thats info i would like to know...if he put them here..why did he take them out..and if he did that to dinosaurs...will he do it to us?



There are only a few species mentioned in the Bible. Never at any point does it try to name all the species. So this is not some surprise. Did you happen to see that passage where it talk about the sea slug? No? hmm thats because it would be a really long book if it addressed them all.


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> There are only a few species mentioned in the Bible. Never at any point does it try to name all the species. So this is not some surprise. Did you happen to see that passage where it talk about the sea slug? No? hmm thats because it would be a really long book if it addressed them all.


we are not talking slugs and bugs and shit...im talking of a major species that had complete control of the plantet..they was the top of the food chain...yet nothing..im not talking about naming every species...im talking about dinosaurs...which is not mentioned in the bible at all


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> It didn't "rise to the top" because of it's great clarity... It rose to the top because it was mandated by the Emperor. That's why you (and millions like you) practice it.
> 
> Want proof? Ratio of Christians in eastern lands not conquered by the Romans.
> 
> Logic Win


And why did he Choose Christ? Out of all the others why Christ. Yes God worked his will and perpetuated his work through man. Way to point out some history that once again proves my point.


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> we are not talking slugs and bugs and shit...im talking of a major species that had complete control of the plantet..they was the top of the food chain...yet nothing..im not talking about naming every species...im talking about dinosaurs...which is not mentioned in the bible at all



So what? Most creatures of this earth where not mentioned. What does that mean? nothing. The Bible does mention beasts and foul. Whats to say that wasn't your dino's.


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> So what? Most creatures of this earth where not mentioned. What does that mean? nothing. The Bible does mention beasts and foul. Whats to say that wasn't your dino's.


sure..this means that and this means this...lets bend words to make it fit to what we need it to be...there just seems to be a few too many loopholes....and when its not 6am...ill be more then happy to go into more details.but i dont judge people based on what "superstition" they follow...pick your 4 leaf clover or your rabbits foot and run with it...just dont cram it down others throat.face facts....the whole religion debate will always go on...because you cant prove..or disprove...no matter what quotes and passage you pull..you cant prove it.everyone has something they believe in...noone is right...noone is wrong..why..beacause you cant prove it.and what works for me..is i dont follow a book written by man that tells me to follow an invisible man that sends me to a place of fire and pain for not worshiping him...kinda not my thing to do as im told to suite the needs of ones ego


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

and say the "beast and fouls" was the dinosaurs....read the first say 30 pages of the bible..its goes on forever in way too much detail about pretty much nothing that has any purpose...if that much detail is went into on so many other subjects...why is the first major species that was on this plant that got wiped out..gone..no more..not mentioned?


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> sure..this means that and this means this...lets bend words to make it fit to what we need it to be...there just seems to be a few too many loopholes....and when its not 6am...ill be more then happy to go into more details.but i dont judge people based on what "superstition" they follow...pick your 4 leaf clover or your rabbits foot and run with it...just dont cram it down others throat.face facts....the whole religion debate will always go on...because you cant prove..or disprove...no matter what quotes and passage you pull..you cant prove it.everyone has something they believe in...noone is right...noone is wrong..why..beacause you cant prove it.and what works for me..is i dont follow a book written by man that tells me to follow an invisible man that sends me to a place of fire and pain for not worshiping him...kinda not my thing to do as im told to suite the needs of ones ego



Don't get mad at me bro. You all are the ones that keep attacking my faith. I just feel obligated to fight back. Its not much of a debate if the whole thread is just a bunch of atheist bashing Christianity. Its the rest of you that are making accusations against what I believe. You are the ones cramming this down my throat. I just refuse to swallow.


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Don't get mad at me bro. You all are the ones that keep attacking my faith. I just feel obligated to fight back. Its not much of a debate if the whole thread is just a bunch of atheist bashing Christianity. Its the rest of you that are making accusations against what I believe. You are the ones cramming this down my throat. I just refuse to swallow.


not mad at all...nor am i attacking you or your "faith"...im asking a logical question..but not getting a logical answer...nor am i questioning the religion..there is a difference between questioning god and asking a question....why is it when questions...that cant be answered come around..its us attacking you...thats you going on the defense to make up for the fact that you dont have an answer


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

are you a preacher....your giving me the same results i got from other preachers and pastors when i ask this question...like there is another book they pass out to give you things to say to those that oppose you


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> not mad at all...nor am i attacking you or your "faith"...im asking a logical question..but not getting a logical answer...nor am i questioning the religion..there is a difference between questioning god and asking a question....why is it when questions...that cant be answered come around..its us attacking you...thats you going on the defense to make up for the fact that you dont have an answer


Look you can ask why doesn't the Bible talk about this and why doesn't the Bible talk about that. I will tell you why, its because its not relevant to the message god is conveying to us. That simple. If you don't see the attack than you have not read the whole thread or you are just biased.


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Look you can ask why doesn't the Bible talk about this and why doesn't the Bible talk about that. I will tell you why, its because its not relevant to the message god is conveying to us. That simple. If you don't see the attack than you have not read the whole thread or you are just biased.


im not talking about the whole thread..im talking about my question and your answer...if they attacked you..thats them...stop basing who the "good guys" are based on what they believe.and if im going to base my life on a book...then it better not be so damn vague....certain things are covered and certain things are not because it was written by primitive man that didnt have a grasp on the whole world yet.why is it people jump so quickly to follow religion...fear...the whole "god fearing man" thing....why follow someone that uses fear to get you to follow him?why..cause its easier to control masses if you give them something to fear


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> im not talking about the whole thread..im talking about my question and your answer...if they attacked you..thats them...stop basing who the "good guys" are based on what they believe.and if im going to base my life on a book...then it better not be so damn vague....certain things are covered and certain things are not because it was written by primitive man that didnt have a grasp on the whole world yet.why is it people jump so quickly to follow religion...fear...the whole "god fearing man" thing....why follow someone that uses fear to get you to follow him?why..cause its easier to control masses if you give them something to fear



Its not about fear man. The whole book is about Gods love for us and how we betrayed His trust. And every since then he has done great things so that we can have a relationship with him. You must understand that God is the opposite of of evil. The definition of evil is the absence of God. Evil disgusts God and he must wipe our sins away before he can have us in his presents. Look at it from his point of view. He gave us everything, and all we do is spit in his face. But yet he still sent his only Son.


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Its not about fear man. The whole book is about Gods love for us and how we betrayed His trust. And every since then he has done great things so that we can have a relationship with him. You must understand that God is the opposite of of evil. The definition of evil is the absence of God. Evil disgusts God and he must wipe our sins away before he can have us in his presents. Look at it from his point of view. He gave us everything, and all we do is spit in his face. But yet he still sent his only Son.


what has god done for me?nothing that i know for a fact was him...so what..when anything good happens..its god...what about when the bad stuff happens...where is he then...why is it people say god was watching over me...only when bad things happen...where was he before the kid died...where was he before the car wreck?its only after something really bad happens do we say god had anything to do with it..and WE betrayed his trust...jesus died for OUR sins...im pretty sure i wasnt around then...nothing was done in my name...i look around and see a really fucked up world...if this is the best god as got..im not impressed.and ive went to church..sat there quietly and listened...and tried to "feel" the love and and all that..and got nothing...i dont feel him there looking out for me...caring for me..and i tired...i really tried..but nothing..so am i supposed to fake it?to make people happy...to follow the crowd?if its all about us loving him and following him..tell him to make a house call or two..because its not working anymore.the day he shows up on cnn...says im still here..and gives me a thumbs up...ill gladly follow him and his ways.untill then..or untill i 'feel" his presence...i refuse to follow.why did people first start to follow the bible..not because they felt it in their heart...they was fed fear...do this and dont do that or this will happen..after you get a mass of primitive people to buy into it and follow along...it spreads like wildfire.they needed to control the primitive people...but people wasnt going to change their life and what they do for nothing...hmmm how can we make them get in line...lets make them think the worst thing they can imagine will happen if they dont follow...after you scare enough people...then they start to follow...and now its a mere social issue...certain families and bloodlines HAVE to follow what their parents did..and their parents did...and so on.why do all the leaders in politics talk about religion so much...its more "socially acceptable" to be a church goer...........and since im still awake..ive got another topic...if you read your bible...they talk about what happens to the souls of certain people...say a baby dies..its soul goes to heaven...why..because it never heard the name of god..therefore get an instant pass to heaven...same as tribes living in the jungles..they are saved for not ever hearing the word of god...so then...why all the churchs...why all the books..all the tv shows....if a few decades ago we just stopped talking about god,church,the bible...wouldnt we also gain instant access to heaven...seeing as the reason you follow is to get into heaven...if we never talk about god or the bible..wouldnt we all get access?why do you think missionaries go to other countries..bibles in tote..to take them to tribes in the woods and jungles...they figured out the loophole and are trying to correct it..."hey folks..you all was living good happy lives..but guess what..we got this book..do all these things..or your going to burn..forever...now..had we not came and told you of this book..you would never had to worry...but we want to "save" you...even though you was already saved."
just as the bible has its properly worded loopholes..we have ours


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## mindphuk (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Your good at fogging the mirror. But I just wipe that crap away. I think there is more than enough here to prove my point. The Bible speaks for itself if you look with an open mind. Oh yeah he the Bible goes on to tell how the rest will be fulfilled. Take your time research them.


I see, so the book that is trying to convince you that he is the lord and messiah tells you the prophecies were fulfilled? How convenient. 

Nice of you to ignore and not address a single thing I said in my post like the absolute misuse of translations. 

How about you address the prophecies I mentioned before you drag in your litany of the prophecies that your holy book claims were fulfilled? Why aren't any of those in your list? 


crackerboy said:


> So let me get this straight, you believe that kings and pharaohs were born of virgins but not Jesus. How does that work?


Try again. I was pointing out how back in those days people readily believed that kings were born to virgins, as it was one of the things that made them special. Do you not think that the writer of Matthew didn't know about this widespread idea and thought that it would give legitimacy to his lord and savior? Why do you think Mark is silent on this? Why would he leave out something so important? Why was it left out of the other gospels like John and Gospel of the Hebrews? 
You are falling for 2000 year old propaganda.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 6, 2010)

Crackerboy, don't you think the whole idea of original sin, heaven/hell, Jesus having to be *killed* to "wipe our slate clean" (which I never understood), etc. is a little bit complicated and doesn't really make as much sense as one would think an omnipotent being would design existence? 

Why not just have everyone created without sin, filled with an unyielding amount of love for God built in already, which would render the "free will" argument moot from the beginning. We'd still have free will and be able to choose what we want to do, except _not_ loving God wouldn't be a choice we could make as we wouldn't be aware of what _not_ loving something means, especially in regards to God. 

Bam! Done. I have no power at all and I just devised a system that would hook more followers if true than Christianity. 

Some god Yahweh is...


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> what has god done for me?
> He gave you life and consciousness. Self awareness.
> 
> WE betrayed his trust...jesus died for OUR sins...im pretty sure i wasnt around then...nothing was done in my name...
> ...


Because they where told to go and make disciples.


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> what has god done for me?nothing that i know for a fact was him...so what..when anything good happens..its god...what about when the bad stuff happens...where is he then...why is it people say god was watching over me...only when bad things happen...where was he before the kid died...where was he before the car wreck?its only after something really bad happens do we say god had anything to do with it..and WE betrayed his trust...jesus died for OUR sins...im pretty sure i wasnt around then...nothing was done in my name...i look around and see a really fucked up world...if this is the best god as got..im not impressed.and ive went to church..sat there quietly and listened...and tried to "feel" the love and and all that..and got nothing...i dont feel him there looking out for me...caring for me..and i tired...i really tried..but nothing..so am i supposed to fake it?to make people happy...to follow the crowd?if its all about us loving him and following him..tell him to make a house call or two..because its not working anymore.the day he shows up on cnn...says im still here..and gives me a thumbs up...ill gladly follow him and his ways.untill then..or untill i 'feel" his presence...i refuse to follow.why did people first start to follow the bible..not because they felt it in their heart...they was fed fear...do this and dont do that or this will happen..after you get a mass of primitive people to buy into it and follow along...it spreads like wildfire.they needed to control the primitive people...but people wasnt going to change their life and what they do for nothing...hmmm how can we make them get in line...lets make them think the worst thing they can imagine will happen if they dont follow...after you scare enough people...then they start to follow...and now its a mere social issue...certain families and bloodlines HAVE to follow what their parents did..and their parents did...and so on.why do all the leaders in politics talk about religion so much...its more "socially acceptable" to be a church goer...........and since im still awake..ive got another topic...if you read your bible...they talk about what happens to the souls of certain people...say a baby dies..its soul goes to heaven...why..because it never heard the name of god..therefore get an instant pass to heaven...same as tribes living in the jungles..they are saved for not ever hearing the word of god...so then...why all the churchs...why all the books..all the tv shows....if a few decades ago we just stopped talking about god,church,the bible...wouldnt we also gain instant access to heaven...seeing as the reason you follow is to get into heaven...if we never talk about god or the bible..wouldnt we all get access?why do you think missionaries go to other countries..bibles in tote..to take them to tribes in the woods and jungles...they figured out the loophole and are trying to correct it..."hey folks..you all was living good happy lives..but guess what..we got this book..do all these things..or your going to burn..forever...now..had we not came and told you of this book..you would never had to worry...but we want to "save" you...even though you was already saved."
> just as the bible has its properly worded loopholes..we have ours





mindphuk said:


> I see, so the book that is trying to convince you that he is the lord and messiah tells you the prophecies were fulfilled? How convenient.
> 
> Nice of you to ignore and not address a single thing I said in my post like the absolute misuse of translations.
> 
> ...



I am pretty sure I addressed enough about the prophecies. Jesus did not try to mimic the kings and wealthy. That's why he chose to be born in a manger not in a palace. And look you want to try and use the Bible to prove that it is wrong. So don't get mad when I use it to prove it true. You can't have it both ways.


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Crackerboy, don't you think the whole idea of original sin, heaven/hell, Jesus having to be *killed* to "wipe our slate clean" (which I never understood), etc. is a little bit complicated and doesn't really make as much sense as one would think an omnipotent being would design existence?
> 
> Why not just have everyone created without sin, filled with an unyielding amount of love for God built in already, which would render the "free will" argument moot from the beginning. We'd still have free will and be able to choose what we want to do, except _not_ loving God wouldn't be a choice we could make as we wouldn't be aware of what _not_ loving something means, especially in regards to God.
> 
> ...



Wow this post really demonstrates your lack of understanding of the scriptures. If your forced to love God than its not Love get it. Its not a relationship if you are forced to be with someone.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Wow this post really demonstrates your lack of understanding of the scriptures. *If your forced to love God than its not Love get it*. Its not a relationship if you are forced to be with someone.



If only YOU got it man, damn...


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

what has god done for me?
He gave you life and consciousness. Self awareness.
no,drunken parents and a broken condom gave me life

WE betrayed his trust...jesus died for OUR sins...im pretty sure i wasnt around then...nothing was done in my name...
So are you saying that you don't sin? Everyone sins. So he died for all mans sin including yours.
well..since god made nearly everything a sin...guess i do..but i dont live in fear of what might happen from my sins...but i thought god was about forgiveness...wait..thats only if i blindly follow and put money in a lil metal trey every sunday

i look around and see a really fucked up world...if this is the best god as got..im not impressed.
No this world is result of separation from God. He gave us free will and we use it for evil. That is human nature. There you go again blaming God for mans corruptness. 
so....gives us free will..then punishes us for using it..he is setting you up for failure.thats kinda fucked up.seems like god is doing nothing more then trying to build his ego..why not take away free will..so he has his followers...and then he dont have to punish us for using something he gave us

and ive went to church..sat there quietly and listened...and tried to "feel" the love and and all that..and got nothing...i dont feel him there looking out for me...caring for me..and i tired...i really tried..but nothing..so am i supposed to fake it?to make people happy...to follow the crowd?if its all about us loving him and following him

There is a book called Sit Walk Stand that you should read. Its really short but explains a lot about this situation. Also a false teacher can also lead you down the wrong road
sure...read this book..that will make me feel it..been to a few churches...same result...no book will change that.each preacher is a false teacher...and why is it to truly be part of the church..theres so much shit i got to read and learn...why...the more info you have the easier it is to distort the truth...hide behind the pages as i call it

i refuse to follow.

Thats part of your problem above.

why is it a problem...does my not following hurt you,your faith,your church...no...but its a good idea to try to make those that dont follow feel bad for it..."cause if we cant make you follow out of fear,we will look down on you for it"
why did people first start to follow the bible..not because they felt it in their heart...they was fed fear...do this and dont do that or this will happen..

No they started after being led out of slavery. How could God be a fair if he did not have a sense of right or wrong? He gave laws so that we don't do wicked things. What kind of God would give laws and not enforce them. You should have some fear of the consequences. It's not even that he punishes you. He just does not allow you into his Kingdom. once again...how do you even know these are facts..basing it on what the bible says...flaw number 1.and god giving us laws is pointless..him knowing that man would make their own laws...laws of the land is also the laws of the church

if you read your bible...they talk about what happens to the souls of certain people...say a baby dies..its soul goes to heaven...why..because it never heard the name of god.

A baby starts with a clean slate. It does not understand the simple concepts of their decisions.that my point...but i do love how you dont quote the whole thing..just part of my statements.....we all start with a clean slate..and lose that clean slate when we hear about the word and teachings of the lord...well...shut the fuck up and we keep our clean slate...but wait..if we dont have churches...how can we make money...oops...missionaries...go..now..we cant have this

why do you think missionaries go to other countries..bibles in tote..to take them to tribes in the woods and jungles.

Because they where told to go and make disciples.so then it really isnt about helping people..its about making them drones to blindly follow the bible...force it down their throat even tho they barely understand what we are telling them...but had we not even went to them..they would have been saved...no lets not do that...lets make them do it the hard way

thought i would respond this way also..instead of responding to my comment as a whole you want to break it down sentence by sentence...i can do the same


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

no,drunken parents and a broken condom gave me life
God gave them the ability to conceive.

well..since god made nearly everything a sin...guess i do..but i dont live in fear of what might happen from my sins...but i thought god was about forgiveness...wait..thats only if i blindly follow and put money in a lil metal trey every sunday
No not everything is a sin. You are arguing about what sin is when you don't even understand what God declared to be sin. 

so....gives us free will..then punishes us for using it..he is setting you up for failure.thats kinda fucked up.seems like god is doing nothing more then trying to build his ego..why not take away free will..so he has his followers...and then he dont have to punish us for using something he gave us
He only punishes you for using that free will to do evil. I am sure you would like to just go around doing whatever you want with no repercussions. But that is not how the world works. Don't be mad that you must pay for your wrong doing. 
sure...read this book..that will make me feel it..been to a few churches...same result...no book will change that.each preacher is a false teacher...and why is it to truly be part of the church..theres so much shit i got to read and learn...why...the more info you have the easier it is to distort the truth...hide behind the pages as i call it
No sometimes you need another perspective to get a clear understanding.

why is it a problem...does my not following hurt you,your faith,your church...no...but its a good idea to try to make those that dont follow feel bad for it..."cause if we cant make you follow out of fear,we will look down on you for it"
No it does not bother me at all. I was saying the reason you might have been having problems is because you refuse to believe.

once again...how do you even know these are facts..basing it on what the bible says...flaw number 1.and god giving us laws is pointless..him knowing that man would make their own laws...laws of the land is also the laws of the church
Look just because you don't understand it does not make it wrong. If God did not give laws to follow than the world would be total kayos. 

my statements.....we all start with a clean slate..and lose that clean slate when we hear about the word and teachings of the lord...well...shut the fuck up and we keep our clean slate...but wait..if we dont have churches...how can we make money...oops...missionaries...go..now..we cant have this
No you don't loose that clean slate when you hear the word. You loose that clean slate when you know the difference between right and wrong and still choose to do wrong.

so then it really isnt about helping people..its about making them drones to blindly follow the bible...force it down their throat even tho they barely understand what we are telling them...but had we not even went to them..they would have been saved...no lets not do that...lets make them do it the hard way
The goal is to spread the good news of Jesus. Not to force anything. To make disciples is to teach people to learn to live like Jesus. Read about the character of Jesus and you will see why that is a good thing. You just keep trying to make it sound as if someone is forcing you to do something. No ones forcing you to do anything. We are just trying to inform you that God wants better things for you.


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

let me make this short and simple
bullshit
bullshit
bullshit
bullshit
people use the bible like its a book of facts....what happened to all this magical shit they speak of?why isnt god communicating with anyone anymore...let us all remember that even when he does communicate...its at the top of a mountain...where no one else is around.in this modern society can you not see the game being played here...back in primitive times this shit would fly..but not now...so many things have been proven to be untrue as it come to religion...of the few things you can hold to be true cant be proven.religion was nothing more then a smart political move..and its worked for many many years.now people are beginning to more and more stray from religion.they are seeing that somethings dont add up.and i say to those that havent figured it out yet...great...follow..most points of the bible are good and relevant...be a good person..lead a good life..help your neighbor...i get that..and can follow that.but there is so much bullshit intertwined into that makes it all hard to swallow.its good to have "faith"...thats not where the problem is.its all the lies and manipulations involved...dont believe that....look at how many people have been killed in the name of your god...and dont play the evil actions of man card...the churches have murdered millions of people through out time in the name of your god...so not only is it..follow these rules or go to hell...its turned to follow these rules...or we kill you...now tell me how all life is sacred again?...........bullshit


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

who is the real bad guy here?


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## mindphuk (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> I am pretty sure I addressed enough about the prophecies.


You didn't actually address jack shit. Responding to my questions and details about the inherent problems calling Jesus the messiah prophesied in the OT with mere a cut and paste job with some supposed list can't be considered addressing my points since you left the majority of my posts unanswered. Did you actually read through my posts? It doesn't appear that you did. 


> Jesus did not try to mimic the kings and wealthy. That's why he chose to be born in a manger not in a palace.


What the fuck are you talking about? Who said anything about mimicking kings or the rich? Do you understand what the word 'messiah' means? I already went over this in an earlier thread but anointing was something done to a king. People didn't just take some olive oil, rub on on some guy and call him the next King of Israel. A king was considered chosen by god. A king became a king because of what he accomplished. Jesus didn't accomplish the things that god told the Jews the next king would accomplish such as rebuilding The Temple. Why is this a hard concept for you? Why doesn't it bother you at all that Jesus accomplished nothing in that list a prophecies I posted? My list of prophecies include the end of war, peace on earth, no more death in the world; while your list includes such gripping accomplishments as speaking in parables, hated and mocked, drank vinegar, upset about the killing of babies and other such deeds. Oh my, how could anyone be able to do such things... 
You also neglected to address the fact that Christians claim things in the OT as prophecies about Jesus that were never messianic prophecies to begin with. I mentioned Isaiah 7:14 but what about this "*Prophecy:* Seed of a woman */Old Testament Reference:* Genesis 3:14-15" How can you with a straight face, claim that Genesis 3:14-15 has ANYTHING to do with the coming messiah? You know the OT was the book written for the Jews. I would think they know a thing or two about which passages in their holy book referenced the coming king and which ones did not. God telling the talking snake what his punishment is had nothing to do with Jesus. Most of your list is like that. Pulling disjointed, unconnected passages and attempt to apply them to Jesus so that it can be claimed he fulfilled a prophecy. It is such a dishonest attempt to make things fit after the fact, a few hours of research and reading on your own should expose it for what it really is but you are too blinded by your preconceptions and need to have the truth fit your ideal, unless you drop those biases and look at everything with a skeptical eye, you will continue to be fooled. 

At least other Christians I have had similar debates were honest enough to admit they didn't know what the Jewish prophecies were and be willing to learn something about the religion that Jesus followed. You show absolutely no humility in addition to your lack of critical thinking.


> And look you want to try and use the Bible to prove that it is wrong. So don't get mad when I use it to prove it true. You can't have it both ways.


Bullshit. This is one of the stupider things you have claimed. You are the one trying to have it both ways and you cannot. You cannot use the bible to prove the bible is true. Read up on something called *circular reasoning*.
It is logically consistent to point out problems with a supposedly true story shedding doubt on its veracity. It is not logical to use the story itself to prove itself true, EVER!!! This is what we do all of the time in the real world in every other aspect of our lives. It's called skepticism and you seem to only disregard it when it punches holes in your pet beliefs.


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

> You cannot use the bible to prove the bible is true


now theres some truth for ya


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## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> who is the real bad guy here?



Oh yeah and where did that data come from?


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## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Oh yeah and where did that data come from?


umm..the bible...granted i know its not the most reliable source...but take a gander...all thats in there


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## karri0n (Nov 6, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> You've been sitting here arguing from a Christian perspective the whole time..


Was it the post about the merits of Satan and that it seems like Yahweh is more harmful than him, when I stated that I was pagan, or that I revere all gods that led you to this conclusion? It's apparent that you don't have enough understanding of the subject matter to be part of this discussion.



Padawanbater2 said:


> Yes. Fail.
> 
> If I decided to get married at all that is. I wouldn't let personal beliefs get in the way of that. I would think she's wrong, but if I loved her, that wouldn't matter to me.
> 
> On the other hand, my last prospect at a relationship with a girl something similar happened, except the girl was devoutly religious and her words were "that's one of my red flags for you" [being an atheist]. So what's that tell you?


You missed the point completely. You wouldn't even be in a relationship with ther person very long if you didn't share some common interests. Someone devoutly faithful isn't someone that you would be interested in.



Padawanbater2 said:


> The difference being I'm not going to kill you for holding different beliefs, I don't think that's the moral thing to do, I also don't think someone should be *tortured for eternity* for holding different beliefs than me. That seems pretty much like the opposite of moral humane treatment...
> 
> Which was the point.


I stated my stance on fundamentalism, I don't think that aspect is correct either. On the other hand, I don't know of many christians readily slaughtering heretics these days. Maybe in Africa. That doesn't change the fact that you're still taking the same "Us vs. Them" stance.




Padawanbater2 said:


> "Can be valid"...
> 
> Explain what you mean.
> 
> ...


Schrodinger's cat, anyone? All possibilities are true until one of them is observed.

The fact of the matter is that there *is* no objective truth in spirituality. Spirit doesn't work the same way the physical world does. A good way that I have heard it put is there are many paths to the top of the mountain and no one path is correct.


----------



## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> You didn't actually address jack shit. Responding to my questions and details about the inherent problems calling Jesus the messiah prophesied in the OT with mere a cut and paste job with some supposed list can't be considered addressing my points since you left the majority of my posts unanswered. Did you actually read through my posts? It doesn't appear that you did.
> What the fuck are you talking about? Who said anything about mimicking kings or the rich? Do you understand what the word 'messiah' means? I already went over this in an earlier thread but anointing was something done to a king. People didn't just take some olive oil, rub on on some guy and call him the next King of Israel. A king was considered chosen by god. A king became a king because of what he accomplished. Jesus didn't accomplish the things that god told the Jews the next king would accomplish such as rebuilding The Temple. Why is this a hard concept for you? Why doesn't it bother you at all that Jesus accomplished nothing in that list a prophecies I posted? My list of prophecies include the end of war, peace on earth, no more death in the world; while your list includes such gripping accomplishments as speaking in parables, hated and mocked, drank vinegar, upset about the killing of babies and other such deeds. Oh my, how could anyone be able to do such things...
> You also neglected to address the fact that Christians claim things in the OT as prophecies about Jesus that were never messianic prophecies to begin with. I mentioned Isaiah 7:14 but what about this "*Prophecy:* Seed of a woman */Old Testament Reference:* Genesis 3:14-15" How can you with a straight face, claim that Genesis 3:14-15 has ANYTHING to do with the coming messiah? You know the OT was the book written for the Jews. I would think they know a thing or two about which passages in their holy book referenced the coming king and which ones did not. God telling the talking snake what his punishment is had nothing to do with Jesus. Most of your list is like that. Pulling disjointed, unconnected passages and attempt to apply them to Jesus so that it can be claimed he fulfilled a prophecy. It is such a dishonest attempt to make things fit after the fact, a few hours of research and reading on your own should expose it for what it really is but you are too blinded by your preconceptions and need to have the truth fit your ideal, unless you drop those biases and look at everything with a skeptical eye, you will continue to be fooled.
> 
> ...



Look I don't know how many more examples I need to give. If you read all those passages. You would see how It proves his lineage. The virgin birth and all the other points you *Tried *to make. _I understand just fine. You just refuse to look at the evidence that was presented to you. Why are you getting so upset. Is it because no matter how hard you try to twist the scriptures they always prove themselves. All the answers you are looking for are in the scriptures I posted. Read them. You tried to prove the Bible wrong by pointing out scripture to prove your point. But you are not properly representing what the Bible says. So I then have to point out the real meanings and verses to counter your argument. Its not circular reasoning its justification by faith. As a matter of fact go take a course on christian doctrine. Then come back and have this conversation. Because you obviously missed some major points about Jesus and his purpose in the cross. _


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Nov 6, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Was it the post about the merits of Satan and that it seems like Yahweh is more harmful than him, when I stated that I was pagan, or that I revere all gods that led you to this conclusion? It's apparent that you don't have enough understanding of the subject matter to be part of this discussion.


See, that's one of the bigger problems with *religion*, most believers think they can pick and choose whats right and wrong with the current times. So you think you're special because you think the Christian God is more violent than Satan, OK, you also seem to think you're some special person because you believe in more than one god, awesome! The more the better it would seem with you, logic be damned! I've heard it all. I've heard of Christains who don't believe in Heaven/Hell, ones who don't believe in the concept of original sin, and ones who don't believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old. And I've asked you to personally explain what you *do believe* at least twice and you always leave with some retarded vague interpretation that's half Christianity and half some made up new age bullshit that you seem to be into. Which prompted this thread, which you have yet to show your face in;

https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/382143-what-true-christianity.html
 


karri0n said:


> You missed the point completely. You wouldn't even be in a relationship with ther person very long if you didn't share some common interests. Someone devoutly faithful isn't someone that you would be interested in.


Who the hell are YOU to tell ME who I'D be interested in? 
Did you not just get done reading in my latest post to you that I *was interested in a devoutly religious young woman*, she was skeptical about getting involved with me because I am an atheist. So your little example happens to be ass backwards and completely in my favor. She turned be down *(1/2) because of my stance on religion*, not the other way around. 

I don't give a fuck what someone believes. *THAT* is the point. She does *because* she is religious. If she wasn't, all systems would have been go.

Fuck organized religion and the bullshit that it does to people.
 


karri0n said:


> I stated my stance on fundamentalism, I don't think that aspect is correct either. On the other hand, I don't know of many christians readily slaughtering heretics these days. Maybe in Africa. That doesn't change the fact that you're still taking the same "Us vs. Them" stance.


ROFL *still *missing the point that *that is what the bible teaches*. It doesn't matter what most believers follow, that's what it says. Believers disregard it because they know they'll go to prison for the rest of their life if they do what the bible commands them to.



karri0n said:


> Schrodinger's cat, anyone? All possibilities are true until one of them is observed.
> 
> The fact of the matter is that there *is* no objective truth in spirituality. *Spirit doesn't work the same way the physical world does*. A good way that I have heard it put is there are many paths to the top of the mountain and no one path is correct.


Well, that just assured me this is the end of our conversation on this topic, as now you've sunk to inducing the spirit world... whatever the fuck that is.

So you have fun with that buddy...
 


crackerboy said:


> _Why are you getting so upset._


Because you guys are ruining lives with this bullshit. Literally, ruining lives, and you don't even care. And honestly, I don't think it would matter even if you did actually care, because this crazy fucking belief goes above everything else. Helping people on Earth, even though it might be whats right doesn't matter. 

Makes me sad to share existence with such vile fucking human beings.


----------



## crackerboy (Nov 6, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> ROFL *still *missing the point that *that is what the bible teaches*. It doesn't matter what most believers follow, that's what it says. Believers disregard it because they know they'll go to prison for the rest of their life if they do what the bible commands them to.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





The God I worship teaches the fruit of the spirit, Love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, and self control. That's what Jesus teaches. You are the only one on this thread spewing hatred. You need to look at your own actions and comments to see who is the one forcing themselves onto others. Who is the one being hostile? 
You are on here slamming Christians for doing the exact same thing that you do on this site every day. I can go pull up all your post's and 90% of them is pure hatred. I will choose my God over your hate any day. Take a good hard look inward. All the proof that I need is in the transformation of lives for the better. Try to encourage someone instead of putting them down.


----------



## IregAt420 (Nov 6, 2010)

djruiner said:


> let me make this short and simple
> bullshit
> bullshit
> bullshit
> ...


Im pretty sure churches are ran by man. Im gonna pull that card because its fact. Man twists the scripture and makes religion a very powerful political issue. It has definitely benefited the U.S....lol. God teaches we should have only one God and not to worship any false idol. But yet our tv is constantly on materialistic shows that focus everything on money and fancy shit. Im also pretty sure that the churches that killed people were more or less dictators, that taught that their was was THE way. I believe God makes himself out in different ways to different people. Ancient Indians had the Great Spirit. I believe I see him in Nature(whats left of it around here) and just being alive and living here.

Sorry Ive had internet issues for the past week. I like seeing this thread EXPLODE!


----------



## djruiner (Nov 6, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> Im pretty sure churches are ran by man. Im gonna pull that card because its fact. Man twists the scripture and makes religion a very powerful political issue. It has definitely benefited the U.S....lol. God teaches we should have only one God and not to worship any false idol. But yet our tv is constantly on materialistic shows that focus everything on money and fancy shit. Im also pretty sure that the churches that killed people were more or less dictators, that taught that their was was THE way. I believe God makes himself out in different ways to different people. Ancient Indians had the Great Spirit. I believe I see him in Nature(whats left of it around here) and just being alive and living here.
> 
> Sorry Ive had internet issues for the past week. I like seeing this thread EXPLODE!


yes..churches are ran by man who did all this in the name of the lord...well if man is a reflection of god..then anything done by man is a reflection of the one that "created" us


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 7, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> The God I worship teaches the fruit of the spirit, Love, joy, peace, long suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, and self control. *That's what Jesus teaches*. You are the only one on this thread spewing hatred. You need to look at your own actions and comments to see who is the one forcing themselves onto others. Who is the one being hostile?
> You are on here slamming Christians for doing the exact same thing that you do on this site every day. I can go pull up all your post's and 90% of them is pure hatred. I will choose my God over your hate any day. Take a good hard look inward. All the proof that I need is in the transformation of lives for the better. Try to encourage someone instead of putting them down.


You're simply misunderstanding my position. It's not "hate", it's frustration. I'm seriously fed up with this attitude you guys walk around with. In your world, it's all about you you you. You need to believe this stuff to make yourself feel comfortable because you can't deal with the simple fact that everything beyond death is uncertain. You can't take an honest look at yourself without fear in your heart, which is extremely sad, because when you truly take a good look at existence, you see it for what it actually is, and take it from me, it's better than anything any god could ever dream up. You guys hide behind the position that can't be proved one way or the other to stay in the comfort zone. You lucked out and as it turns out our species is terrible at individual thought and craves acceptance above almost everything else, and, as a result, you have the numbers you need to force skeptics to accept your way of life. When we don't, you scream "OPPRESSION!!!". Fuck that. Observing reality and teaching the truth takes priority over fairy tales in this world. 

More and more people are developing this exact same attitude every single day. People have simply had enough of the bullshit organized religion provides. 

PS. That's not what Jesus teaches. Ever read the OT?


----------



## karri0n (Nov 7, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> See, that's one of the bigger problems with *religion*, most believers think they can pick and choose whats right and wrong with the current times.


Who are you to say they can't? In fact, I will right now....

Some things I like about about the current times:

electricity
running water
free access to a massive amount of information

Some things I do not:

our government and lives being completely run by corporations and greed.



Padawanbater2 said:


> I've heard it all.


Based on the fact that you still think the only 2 sets of beliefs in the world are christianity and atheism, you very obviously have not. Maybe when you graduate high school you will learn about the various multitude of colors other than black and white.



Padawanbater2 said:


> I've heard of Christains who don't believe in Heaven/Hell, ones who don't believe in the concept of original sin, and ones who don't believe the Earth is only 6,000 years old.


Everything is christianity with you. seriously. Come with ONE thing, anything, about some other belief system.



Padawanbater2 said:


> *at least twice*


Only once. And I described my beliefs in pretty extensive detail, AND included a label(pagan), since everything needs to be labeled with you. 



Padawanbater2 said:


> Which prompted this thread, which you have yet to show your face in;
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/spirituality-sexuality-philosophy/382143-what-true-christianity.html


So sorry that you took offense to the fact that I don't follow your threads around. I think you should get that narcissism complex checked out. Also I didn't see YOU posting in my companion planting thread.




Padawanbater2 said:


> She turned be down *(1/2) because of my stance on religion*, not the other way around.


So NOW it comes to light why you are so mad about religion. 

Here's a few tips:

If she was interested in the first place, she isn't "devoutly" religious.

Maybe to *you*(O, sacred one of no faults by your own words), 1/2 of the reason was due to religion, but that was probably the least of the reasons. The other "half" is probably just because you're an asshole. Chicks aren't into that.




Padawanbater2 said:


> Fuck organized religion and the bullshit that it does to people.


Key word: organized. Most "organized" religion is a means of controlling the masses and is rife with bullshit.



Padawanbater2 said:


> ROFL *still *missing the point that *that is what the bible teaches*. It doesn't matter what most believers follow, that's what it says. Believers disregard it because they know they'll go to prison for the rest of their life if they do what the bible commands them to.


No, it's you missing the point still. You're claiming that *all* religion promotes an us vs. them mentality. This isn't even true of all sects of christianity, never mind all religions.


----------



## karri0n (Nov 7, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> PS. That's not what Jesus teaches. Ever read the OT?



LMAO!!!! I'd certainly love to hear what it is that Jesus teaches in the Old Testament. Idiot.


----------



## NLNo5 (Nov 7, 2010)

There is plenty of circumstantial evidence from without and some people can corroborate that with evidence from within. When you have evidence without and within you just can't ignore the truth any more. We all have to wipe our asses and none of us knows much about anything on an individual basis and we are not much smarter as a collective. I just laugh and thank God for my life, my friends and God's herbal goodness.


----------



## mindphuk (Nov 7, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Look I don't know how many more examples I need to give. If you read all those passages. You would see how It proves his lineage.


Proves his lineage of what? I asked you pointed questions about it but you remain silent and you are now just asking me to do your work for you. Instead of cut and paste, how about using your "god-given" ability to create your own sentences and answer some fucking questions? Matthew and Luke have contradictory genealogies and can't even agree who Joseph's father was. Why bother with genealogies of Joseph if he wasn't Jesus' father anyway?


> The virgin birth and all the other points you *Tried *to make. I understand just fine. You just refuse to look at the evidence that was presented to you.


Let me explain this again. I haven't refused to look at evidence, you have failed to provide any. Posting links to the bible and telling me to look it up is not evidence, it is you being lazy and not providing the answers to the questions. This is a debate forum and even in informal debate such as this there are basic rules because not abiding by them creates fallacies. Telling someone to look in the bible to find answers about why the bible is contradictory is, well, FUCKING INSANE! 
So why not try again to answer some of these basic questions that I posed such as why there were only 2 gospel writers that even mention a virgin birth? How can you use Isaiah 7:14 as proof text when it is not a messianic prophecy and the Hebrew never once actually mentions a virgin? If Mary was a virgin, why does the lineage of Joseph even matter? How can Jesus be from the line of David if Yahweh, not Joseph was the father? 


> Why are you getting so upset. Is it because no matter how hard you try to twist the scriptures they always prove themselves.


I'm not upset, I'm frustrated with your inability to plainly answer simple questions that I have to keep repeating because the only answer you give that I should be able to find the answer myself in the bible.... as evidence I present you with...


> All the answers you are looking for are in the scriptures I posted. Read them.



Not my job. If it is your intention to counter anything I'm saying, then present the scripture with your explanation of how it resolves the conflict I'm asking about. This is simple stuff, theologians have been doing this for ages. Have you ever heard the term biblical exegesis or textural commentary? 



> You tried to prove the Bible wrong by pointing out scripture to prove your point.


I haven't proved anything, I have provided examples of problems with accepting literal interpretation of certain sections of the bible and asked you to explain why they aren't problematic. You have continually failed to fulfill your part in this exchange. 



> But you are not properly representing what the Bible says.


I have quoted specific sections of the bible, exactly as how it is written there. You have not demonstrated why my examples are not "proper representations." 



> So I then have to point out the real meanings and verses to counter your argument.


No, you provided links and told me to look them up myself, and not one of the verses you provided appear to counter my argument in the least and many of them were just repeating the same verses that I pointed out had problems. 



> Its not circular reasoning its justification by faith. As a matter of fact go take a course on christian doctrine. Then come back and have this conversation. Because you obviously missed some major points about Jesus and his purpose in the cross.


Again, telling me to do your work for you. I've had plenty of exposure to Christian doctrine, but you seem to have difficulty with logical debate. I guess this is where I should suggest you take a course on critical thinking and logic.
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and just assume you are a lazy stoner and not this stupid.


----------



## rzza (Nov 7, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> You don't get to "choose" what you believe in. I don't know why so many religious people think they just get to pick and choose between what they think is reality and what's not. That isn't how LIFE works. REALITY is REALITY because there is no other way for it to be. That is what makes it REALITY. It is objective, even though your interpretation of it is subjective. That is why science is so useful, it takes all the subjective bits out of discerning what reality actually is.
> 
> Think of it like this. An orange is sitting on top of a counter, OK, can you choose to believe the color of the orange is purple? No, you can't. Because whether you believe it's purple, blue, black, red, green, yellow or brown, it doesn't change the REALITY that the color is actually orange.
> 
> ...


sir, i like you and i enjoy reading what you have to say.

please post more.


----------



## crackerboy (Nov 7, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> You're simply misunderstanding my position. It's not "hate", it's frustration. I'm seriously fed up with this attitude you guys walk around with. In your world, it's all about you you you. You need to believe this stuff to make yourself feel comfortable because you can't deal with the simple fact that everything beyond death is uncertain. You can't take an honest look at yourself without fear in your heart, which is extremely sad, because when you truly take a good look at existence, you see it for what it actually is, and take it from me, it's better than anything any god could ever dream up. You guys hide behind the position that can't be proved one way or the other to stay in the comfort zone. You lucked out and as it turns out our species is terrible at individual thought and craves acceptance above almost everything else, and, as a result, you have the numbers you need to force skeptics to accept your way of life. When we don't, you scream "OPPRESSION!!!". Fuck that. Observing reality and teaching the truth takes priority over fairy tales in this world.
> 
> More and more people are developing this exact same attitude every single day. People have simply had enough of the bullshit organized religion provides.
> 
> PS. That's not what Jesus teaches. Ever read the OT?



It's official. You just proved to us all that you have clearly never even attempted to read or understand the Bible. Read the New Testament. It is all about Jesus life and his teachings. The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born. Jesus Studied the Old Testament and preached the New.


----------



## crackerboy (Nov 7, 2010)

Well first of all let me say that I am not obligated to do anything. This is not some high school debate. Your so called rules don't mean squat to me. You call me lazy but you are the one asking me to walk you through each passage like a little child. I refuse to step through every single one. You will have to settle for what I have given you. I don't really care if you don't like it. But for the sake of proving my point here are a few. Maybe if I get bored enough I will walk you through a few more later.



mindphuk said:


> Yet Isaiah never mentions a virgin birth
> 
> "And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. " (Isaiah 7:13-14)
> 
> ...


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Nov 7, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Who are you to say they can't? In fact, I will right now..


karri0n, if the Bible was objectively true, like Christians say it is, then why would people change what they believe is right and wrong with the times? Wouldn't what is right and wrong stay the same all throughout time? Why was it considered to be OK during the time the Bible was written to kill homosexuals? Why is that not considered to be OK today?



karri0n said:


> Based on the fact that you still think the only 2 sets of beliefs in the world are christianity and atheism, you very obviously have not. Maybe when you graduate high school you will learn about the various multitude of colors other than black and white.


 Do you see any Muslims in this thread? I don't. How bout any Scientologists? No? Buddhists?... Hindu's? No? 

Just Christians and atheists. 

I don't address EVERYTHING else because I don't have time to. Don't get me wrong, they're all equally as illogical. The thing is, and feel free to pass this around to all the other religious people who simply can't grasp this concept, we live in a country that is dominated by Christians. Why do you find it surprising that that is what atheists would talk about most often? Christian dogma directly affects my life in the United States for both good and bad. I'm not affected by Islamic dogma, I'm not forced to live by Sharia law, if I was I would be criticizing it just as harshly. Pretty easy to understand right?
 


karri0n said:


> Everything is christianity with you. seriously. Come with ONE thing, anything, about some other belief system.


 Like I said, imo, all other religions are equally as wrong. Shit that isn't based in science can't be confirmed so it's irrelevant anyway. Irrelevant = useless. 



karri0n said:


> So sorry that you took offense to the fact that I don't follow your threads around. I think you should get that narcissism complex checked out. Also I didn't see YOU posting in my companion planting thread.


No offense taken at all, just found it kind of odd. You state one thing then don't show up to defend it... OK, whatever. Moving on.. 



karri0n said:


> So NOW it comes to light why you are so mad about religion.
> 
> Here's a few tips:
> 
> ...




I have to tip my hat to you sir, you got me... 

That's the real reason I'm so adamantly against organized religion... 

It's not the fact that science and education are the first things to get discarded in a childs mind when their parents tell them about their religion.. Nah, couldn't be that...

It's not that billions of people throughout human history have been slaughtered because of a fairy tale... Naaah...

It isn't because every single hashed and rehashed version of the same story doesn't make one fucking iota of sense...

I don't like organized religion because a girl turned me down because I'm not religious...

Yep, that's it...

You've figured me out...


How The Fuck Could You Honestly Think That? 

Reading any of my posts, seriously, how the hell could you come to that conclusion and be serious about it?? I don't understand.


This is what you don't understand about being an atheist, because you aren't one yourself. It's a choice you make *for yourself*. Not for anyone else. There really is no "choice" about it because it's just a default position to take in light of absent evidence of a claim. That's it. The fact that this chick was highly religious and I wasn't meant to her that if we were to ever get married, there is no way we would be together for _eternity_. She saw it as a lost cause. Do you understand how two adults think about this stuff? Like I said, I couldn't give a damn less what religion she was. This situation says a lot about Christianity and what it can do to a person. 
 


karri0n said:


> Key word: organized. Most "organized" religion is a means of controlling the masses and is rife with bullshit.


Smartest thing you've posted to me yet. I don't say "religion", and never have, because a person practicing their religion at home in *private* isn't a problem. It becomes a problem when these people get together, organize, and try to make everyone else believe the same things they do. 



karri0n said:


> No, it's you missing the point still. You're claiming that *all* religion promotes an us vs. them mentality. This isn't even true of all sects of christianity, never mind all religions.


Yes it is. Tolerance for other religions is nowhere to be seen in any of them. How bout those ten commandments...

I am the Lord your God 
*You shall have no other gods before me* 
You shall not make for yourself an idol 
Do not take the name of the Lord in vain 
Remember the Sabbath and keep it holy 
Honor your father and mother 
You shall not murder 
You shall not commit adultery 
You shall not steal 
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor 
You shall not covet your neighbor's wife 
You shall not covet anything that belongs to your neighbor



karri0n said:


> LMAO!!!! I'd certainly love to hear what it is that Jesus teaches in the Old Testament. Idiot.


Meant Christianity, suck my balls. 



crackerboy said:


> It's official. You just proved to us all that you have clearly never even attempted to read or understand the Bible. Read the New Testament. It is all about Jesus life and his teachings. The Old Testament was written before Jesus was born. Jesus Studied the Old Testament and preached the New.


The OT still applies to Christianity, explain to me why it doesn't.


----------



## crackerboy (Nov 7, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> The OT still applies to Christianity, explain to me why it doesn't.




I never said it does not apply. The laws reveals our sins and Jesus wipes them away.


----------



## Padawanbater2 (Nov 7, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> I never said it does not apply. The laws reveals our sins and Jesus wipes them away.


How does that make any sense to you?

Do you honestly not see a better, more efficient way for a being with unlimited power to accomplish the exact same goal?


----------



## crackerboy (Nov 7, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> How does that make any sense to you?
> 
> Do you honestly not see a better, more efficient way for a being with unlimited power to accomplish the exact same goal?



What you fail to understand is that there is a spiritual war going on. The Devil is no ones fool. He has understanding that no man can imagine. He is very deceitful. Man is a simple being in comparison to God and the devil. We are easily led astray. Gods will is done regardless of whether you understand or agree. Answer me this. Name another that has had the effect that Jesus has had on the world. No ordinary man could have such an impact.


----------



## mindphuk (Nov 7, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Well first of all let me say that I am not obligated to do anything.


I never said you were but if you're going to respond to my posts claiming that you are answering the questions, then you have at the minimal, an obligation to do what you claim you are doing. 



> This is not some high school debate. Your so called rules don't mean squat to me.


This is a debate, however informal, and as explained, the rules are there to avoid logical fallacies. I never said you can't break the rules but if you choose that route, then you give up any chance you will be taken seriously by me or any observer. 



> You call me lazy but you are the one asking me to walk you through each passage like a little child. I refuse to step through every single one. You will have to settle for what I have given you. I don't really care if you don't like it. But for the sake of proving my point here are a few. Maybe if I get bored enough I will walk you through a few more later.


You haven't walked through ANY of them! When someone claims a verse is contradictory, then just quoting that verse does nothing to support your view, it just shows that there are contradictions. It's real simple, let me use a very crude analogy: I say that the Old Testament says that Moses was a redhead, you present NT verses to support your view that his hair was brown. You cannot merely provide the NT verses and say, "see, it was brown, not red" and not go deeper to explain the discrepancy. Seriously, I really don't understand why this basic level of common sense eludes you. 


> mindphuk said:
> 
> 
> > Yet Isaiah never mentions a virgin birth
> ...


Well, here you go, you just proved my point. I claimed that Isaiah doesn't mention a virgin and I demonstrated that there was a mistranslation between the Hebrew and the Greek where the term "young woman" was changed to "virgin" and this occurred AFTER Jesus' time. I also pointed out that Isaiah 7:14 had nothing to do with prophecy about a messiah but was to be a sign for King Ahaz to tell him that God was to protect the kingdom. The verses Isaiah 7:15-16 state that, by the time this child (whose imminent birth was foretold in Isaiah 7:14) reaches the age of maturity (&#8220;&#8230; he knows to reject bad and choose good &#8230;&#8221, the kings of the two enemy nations will be gone, in fact, they will be killed. If this was a prophecy about Jesus, he came about 750 years too late for the poor king. 



> The Sanhedrin will be re-established (Isaiah 1:26) Nope
> 
> Ok now Sanhedrin never shows up in the Bible. And as for Isaiah 1:26 goes it is referring to God's Judgment of his people and it's future restoration as its goal. They where subsequently restored from the Babylonian captivity. (jer. 29:10)



This makes no sense. Isaiah 1:26 refers specifically to the Sanhedrin, they are most certainly mentioned. In fact, they are mentioned multiple times in the NT as well. 


> [*]Once he is King, leaders of other nations will look to him for guidance (Isaiah 2:4) Never became king of Israel. Other nation's leaders do not follow Jesus
> Jesus is King and many leaders of many nations look to him for guidance. There is coutless accounts of our very own presidents praying to Jesus. I would consider this looking to Him for guidance.


Another claim of victory without support. You make a claim that Jesus is king yet he actually never was. You are using a spiritual, non-literal interpretation of the term king by giving him 'reign' in the unseen (and unprovable) heaven. All references to anointing and kings up until that time always referred to a mortal king that ruled from Jerusalem. By just declaring Jesus as king is just as bad as most of these other attempts to reconcile the fact that Jesus never actually fulfilled these prophecies in life. 
Now, tell me how many leaders (plural) look to him for guidance? I was going to mention Bush but I figured anyone reading this would realize that some dude 2000 years later does not fulfill the prophecy that imply many nations and leaders. 


> [*]The whole world will worship the One God of Israel (Isaiah 2:17) Nope.
> [*]He will be descended from King David (Isaiah 11:1) via King Solomon (1 Chron. 22:8&#8211;10) Nope. This one requires more depth --
> 
> If Jesus is the messiah, then he could not have been born of a virgin; he would have had to have a father who was of the House of David, and
> f Jesus was born of a virgin, then he could not have been the messiah, because his father -- the Holy Spirit -- was not a human descendent of the House of David.


So I guess you decided quote this but not answer it? 


> [*]Evil and tyranny will not be able to stand before his leadership (Isaiah 11:4) Evil and tyranny still occur all over
> When Jesus directly confronted demons and the pharisees they could not stand against him until he gave himself to the Cross.


So again, you point to the NT as proof of his divinity. How about addressing how evil and tyranny still exist? 


> [*]Knowledge of God will fill the world (Isaiah 11:9) This thread demonstrates this is false.
> Find one person that does not know of Jesus. I bet you will have a really hard time.


Knowledge of God and having heard of Jesus are not equivalent in the least. Do you seriously think that the earth is filled knowledge of Yahweh as the waters cover the sea?



> The appearance of a difference between Mark and Luke's account of Jesus family history can easily be explained. First of all Luke's genealogy moves backwards from Jesus to Adam. Mathews moves forward from Abraham to Joseph. Luke's account is of Mary's genealogy and Mark's is for Joseph.


 Mary's genealogy is irrelevant. Tribal affiliation is inherited through the father, not the mother. Besides, Luke claims that Mary descended from David through Nathan, not Solomon which fails in the prophecies claiming _&#8220;The Messiah must be from the seed of Solomon (2 Samuel 7:12-16, Psalms 89:29-38,1 Chronicles 17:11-14,22:9-10,28:6-7).

Thanks for playing. 

BTW, next time learn to properly use the quote feature. I don't want to keep wasting time formatting your replies. 
 _


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## crackerboy (Nov 7, 2010)

mindphuk,

There most definitely is a word for virgin. (almah) look it up. It is made very clear in Song of Sol 6:8. I think the misinterpreted word you are referring to is (betulah). This word refers to unmarried and some have mistranslated it on occasion. 

I'm sorry but I don't see how you came to the conclusions on the Immanuel Prophecy. The title of that chapter is the Immanuel Prophecy. It could not be a prophecy about King Ahaz since God was speaking directly to him. God was telling of a child born of a virgin named Immanuel.


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## crackerboy (Nov 7, 2010)

Of course, as a traditional Christian, I completely disagree with the Jewish assessment of Jesus&#8217; lineage. 
So let me get this straight. The argument goes:
1) In order to fulfill the messianic prophecy of being from the tribe of Judah, Joseph would have to have been Jesus&#8217; natural father since tribal affiliation is passed through the father&#8217;s lineage.
2) In order to fulfill the messianic prophecy of being from the &#8220;House of David&#8221;, Joseph would have to have been Jesus&#8217; natural father since tribal affiliation is passed down from the father and cannot be claimed through adoption.
3) In order to fulfill the messianic prophecy of being from the &#8220;seed of&#8221; Solomon, Joseph would have to have been Jesus&#8217; natural father since tribal affiliation is only passed through the father&#8217;s lineage.


Does the unspoken assumption here seem unusual? If Jesus is the supernaturally conceived Son of God, rather than the natural son of Joseph, then He isn&#8217;t qualified to be the Messiah. Really? So if God Himself comes to earth, He is unqualified to be their savior? I wonder if they realize how nonsensical and illogical that sounds? Setting that aside, let&#8217;s continue with the argument. If Jesus was not Joseph&#8217;s natural son, but only the son of Mary, one must wonder: did Jesus have any Jewish affiliation at all? If all affiliation were only passed down from the father&#8217;s side then Jesus, technically, wasn&#8217;t even a Jew; He had no tribe, no family and no real lineage (remember, we&#8217;re setting aside the fact that he&#8217;s the son of God). So, being born through Mary into the tribe of Judah from the line of King David is irrelevant; Jesus is a nobody from nowhere.
This kind of reasoning, obviously, fails on two levels:
On the first level, without an early father, Jesus&#8217; lineage would instead have come from his mother, Mary. Would anyone, even in the first century, have been so foolish as to deny that Jesus had a family line? So, using Luke&#8217;s genealogy, we can place Jesus both in the tribe of Judah and from the line of David; He was qualified to be the Messiah.
On a second level, how can you argue: If Jesus is truly the son of God, then He can&#8217;t be the Messiah? That is pure nonsense. Is God unable to bring about the Messiah, even His own Son, without the aid of a natural man? I guess &#8230; if you choose to believe that first century Jewish genealogical traditions trump God&#8217;s will.
Of course, this kind of thinking is nothing new. If you remember, in like manner the Jews of Jesus&#8217; day accused Him of being a sinner for healing on the Sabbath. When Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead, they plotted to kill them both. It seems that even in Jesus&#8217; day, people could be blind, ignoring the blatant miracles of God and instead embracing the traditions of men?
Now, for arguments sake, let&#8217;s even give them this part of the argument. Let&#8217;s suppose that in the first century lineage was only passed through the natural father&#8217;s line. Jesus Himself offered a great refutation of this argument :
_&#8220;And say not to yourselves, We have Abraham for our father; because I say to you that God is able from these stones to make children for Abraham.&#8221;_ &#8211; Mt 3:9
Yeah &#8230; on every level these arguments against Jesus&#8217; qualifications to be the Messiah fail and fail badly. The assumptions behind them fail, the premise fails and the conclusion fails.
The last argument fares no better. Although the scripture mentioned, II Samuel and Psalms do speak of a &#8220;son of David&#8221; they are referring to Solomon. There are allusions to Jesus, but allusions to future events and people aren&#8217;t unheard of in the scripture. Both Antiochus Epiphanes and the king of Babylon are compared to the Satan / the Antichrist in the form of allusions. Does this mean that Antiochus Epiphanes was the Antichrist? Nope.
The point here is that although the texts of the Psalm and II Samuel can&#8217;t all possibly be applied to Solomon (as a son of David) they did in fact allude to another &#8220;son of David&#8221;: Jesus of Nazareth. The Christ.
So let me summarize:
1) Jesus was from the tribe of Judah through Mary.
2) Jesus was from the tribe of David through Mary.
3) The verses mentioned here are about Solomon. They do allude to the Messiah who was indeed from the line of David as predicted.


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## mindphuk (Nov 7, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> mindphuk,
> 
> There most definitely is a word for virgin. (almah) look it up. It is made very clear in Song of Sol 6:8. I think the misinterpreted word you are referring to is (betulah). This word refers to unmarried and some have mistranslated it on occasion.
> 
> I'm sorry but I don't see how you came to the conclusions on the Immanuel Prophecy. The title of that chapter is the Immanuel Prophecy. It could not be a prophecy about King Ahaz since God was speaking directly to him. God was telling of a child born of a virgin named Immanuel.


 First of all, I never said there was no word for virgin, I said Isaiah 7:14 never said virgin until it was translated into Greek. You have it backwards, almah means young woman, bethulah means virgin. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isaiah_7:14
Even many modern translations go back and either say "young woman" or use footnotes to explain the discrepancy. http://bible.cc/isaiah/7-14.htm

There are no titles to chapters in the bible, those are typically added by various translators to help organize and clarify things. How can you claim this isn't about Ahaz? Did you bother to read the whole chapter? Why isn't your savior named Immanuel and instead Yahshua? Read it, God is most definitely speaking to Isaiah first who relays the message to King Ahaz, then to Ahaz directly. I really doubt your intellectual capability as well as your ability to understand any other passage in the bible if you can read Isaiah 7 and then claim it doesn't have to do with Ahaz:

(from the NIV)
*When Ahaz son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, was king of Judah,* King Rezin of Aram and Pekah son of Remaliah king of Israel marched up to fight against Jerusalem, but they could not overpower it. 2 Now the house of David was told, &#8220;Aram has allied itself with[a] Ephraim&#8221;; so the hearts of Ahaz and his people were shaken, as the trees of the forest are shaken by the wind. 
3 Then *the LORD said to Isaiah*, &#8220;Go out, you and your son Shear-Jashub,[b] to* meet Ahaz *at the end of the aqueduct of the Upper Pool, on the road to the Launderer&#8217;s Field. 4 *Say to him, &#8216;Be careful, keep calm and don&#8217;t be afraid. Do not lose heart *because of these two smoldering stubs of firewood&#8212;because of the fierce anger of Rezin and Aram and of the son of Remaliah. 5 Aram, Ephraim and Remaliah&#8217;s son have plotted your ruin, saying, 6 &#8220;Let us invade Judah; let us tear it apart and divide it among ourselves, and make the son of Tabeel king over it.&#8221; 7 Yet this is what the Sovereign LORD says: 
&#8220;&#8216;It will not take place, 
it will not happen, 
8 for the head of Aram is Damascus, 
and the head of Damascus is only Rezin. 
Within sixty-five years 
Ephraim will be too shattered to be a people. 
9 The head of Ephraim is Samaria, 
and the head of Samaria is only Remaliah&#8217;s son. 
If you do not stand firm in your faith, 
you will not stand at all.&#8217;&#8221; 
10 Again the *LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 &#8220;Ask the LORD your God for a sign,* whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights.&#8221; 
12 But *Ahaz said, &#8220;I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test.&#8221; *
13 *Then Isaiah said, &#8220;Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of humans? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you[c] a sign*: The virgin[d] will conceive and give birth to a son, and[e] will call him Immanuel.[f] 15 He will be eating curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, 16 *for before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste.* 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah&#8212;he will bring the king of Assyria.&#8221;​

God tells Isaiah to tell King Ahaz to relax, Judah will come out okay. The other two kingdoms will not be able to destroy him. He was told to ask for any sign but Ahaz refuses to test God. Therefore Isaiah tells him what the sign will be that a young woman (presumably, one that Ahaz knows) will have a child named Immanuel and before he is 13 (the age that a young boy is Bar Mitzvah and hence will know to reject the wrong and accept the right) the two kingdoms that threaten Ahaz will be gone. 

Instead of focusing on the fact that Isaiah's prophecy came true about the enemies of Judah, you believe that the snippet about a young woman giving birth is about Jesus because that's what you have been told. Learn to think for yourself man, I won't always be around to help you


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## mindphuk (Nov 7, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Of course, as a traditional Christian, I completely disagree with the Jewish assessment of Jesus&#8217; lineage.
> So let me get this straight. The argument goes:
> 1) In order to fulfill the messianic prophecy of being from the tribe of Judah, Joseph would have to have been Jesus&#8217; natural father since tribal affiliation is passed through the father&#8217;s lineage.
> 2) In order to fulfill the messianic prophecy of being from the &#8220;House of David&#8221;, Joseph would have to have been Jesus&#8217; natural father since tribal affiliation is passed down from the father and cannot be claimed through adoption.
> ...


Trying to pass off a cut & paste as your own is dishonest at best and at worst demonstrates your inability to think for yourself. http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/2010/09/jesus-the-jew/
I will rebut this if you want but since you decided to use someone else's thinking for you, you may have missed that it doesn't address everything I said and merely dismisses with a wave of the hand the idea that a son inherits his tribal affiliation from his father not mother. This writer obviously thinks this is one of those absurd traditions while ignoring that it was Yahweh that created these rules/traditions in the first place.


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## djruiner (Nov 7, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Trying to pass off a cut & paste as your own is dishonest at best and at worst demonstrates your inability to think for yourself. http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/2010/09/jesus-the-jew/
> I will rebut this if you want but since you decided to use someone else's thinking for you, you may have missed that it doesn't address everything I said and merely dismisses with a wave of the hand the idea that a son inherits his tribal affiliation from his father not mother. This writer obviously thinks this is one of those absurd traditions while ignoring that it was Yahweh that created these rules/traditions in the first place.


damn....caught...would one call that an educated fail?what i like best about the link to the site which he copy and pasted from....is the first thing you see on the right is a donate link...i wonder how much of any of the donated money has taxes taken out of it


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

Yes I read all of that chapter. Why are you adding your own words to the chapter? You are really stretching this chapter to fit what you want it to say. Even Jews that deny Christ as God still agree that this is a prophecy about the messiah. Only a few extremist view it as you do.


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Trying to pass off a cut & paste as your own is dishonest at best and at worst demonstrates your inability to think for yourself. http://instituteofbiblicaldefense.com/2010/09/jesus-the-jew/
> I will rebut this if you want but since you decided to use someone else's thinking for you, you may have missed that it doesn't address everything I said and merely dismisses with a wave of the hand the idea that a son inherits his tribal affiliation from his father not mother. This writer obviously thinks this is one of those absurd traditions while ignoring that it was Yahweh that created these rules/traditions in the first place.



Yep I sure did copy and paste it. It made a good point and wanted to put it out there. I knew if I just put a link than you would not read it. Just as had happened when I posted the different prophecies and some video's a while back. Its funny that you did not try to counter it. I guess you needed more time to find a way to twist it as well. You had no argument on it so your only recourse is to insult me. I readily admit that I often will copy and past from reference sites all the time. It is simply easier then typing it all out. I feel that it made the point well and there is no reason for me to even try to re word it. Would you prefer that I waste my time to re-word just to make it sound as if I wrote it. So we can squash this whole subject because I will continue to copy and paste at will if it helps make a point. Its not that uncommon. I think I have more than proved that I am capable of articulating my point. So don't act as if all your arguments are your original work. *ALL* of you argument are the same ones that people have failed to prove over and over again. You are simply repeating them to me in hopes that I am not educated enough on the subject to be able to counter. It is comical how you try show how smart you are all the time. Your not that smart buddy.


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

djruiner said:


> damn....caught...would one call that an educated fail?what i like best about the link to the site which he copy and pasted from....is the first thing you see on the right is a donate link...i wonder how much of any of the donated money has taxes taken out of it




Is that the only argument you have huh. Education fail? Lets see your Hebrew or Greek translations. Oh wait you probably barely understand English.Try to come to the debate with some insight on any of these subjects.


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## rzza (Nov 8, 2010)

his insight about the dinosaurs was epic. 

are you gonna ask for forgiveness later for making fun of his understanding of english?

i know im not half as educated as you guys are and perhaps i dont belong here but i have read every word ITT and if anybody is curious how an ordinary, uneducated (peabrain if you will), non religious, secular (?) citizen views this debate ...

everyone whos arguing for church and god sounds just like a five year old with alot of knowledge. i mean everything is so fairytale-ish that it seems like your trying to convince a child that his cartoon is reality.

coming into this debate as an observor and knowing almost nothing about church and god, has opened my eyes so much. i couldnt even imagine going on the side of the believers.

heres a question though ....
i am athiest. however im having an extremely hard time trying to comprehend life, the beginning and how/why our universe stays soooo perfectly in tact. im of course talking about our moon and sun and earth and its spinning and day and night etc....

could someone talk about that or link me to a pretty good and simplistic article that may help me understand it better?


padawa, do you listen to the skeptics guide to reality? i have heard michael shermer describe a few things the same way you have....


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## mindphuk (Nov 8, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Yes I read all of that chapter. Why are you adding your own words to the chapter? You are really stretching this chapter to fit what you want it to say. Even Jews that deny Christ as God still agree that this is a prophecy about the messiah. Only a few extremist view it as you do.


 You must be smoking some fine shit. 

Seriously, put down the weed for 5 minutes. Where did I add my own words to the chapter? I quoted directly from the NIV. The only thing I added was to bold the pertinent sentences to prove my point. Not one Jew that I have ever met thinks that Isaiah 7 is about the messiah, unless they are a "Messianic Jew" which is code for Jews that become Christian but retain their Jewish traditions.  Hell, I bet no one here in this forum will think it after reading my post. You're the only one, when faced with the facts, still continue to deny them. I think it's hilarious you call my view extremist, when you are the one trying to make things fit where they don't.


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## mindphuk (Nov 8, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Yep I sure did copy and paste it. It made a good point and wanted to put it out there. I knew if I just put a link than you would not read it. Just as had happened when I posted the different prophecies and some video's a while back. Its funny that you did not try to counter it. I guess you needed more time to find a way to twist it as well. You had no argument on it so your only recourse is to insult me. I readily admit that I often will copy and past from reference sites all the time. It is simply easier then typing it all out. I feel that it made the point well and there is no reason for me to even try to re word it. Would you prefer that I waste my time to re-word just to make it sound as if I wrote it. So we can squash this whole subject because I will continue to copy and paste at will if it helps make a point. Its not that uncommon. I think I have more than proved that I am capable of articulating my point. So don't act as if all your arguments are your original work. *ALL* of you argument are the same ones that people have failed to prove over and over again. You are simply repeating them to me in hopes that I am not educated enough on the subject to be able to counter. It is comical how you try show how smart you are all the time. Your not that smart buddy.


I did counter it and even told you I would spend more time rebutting it if you want. I really wonder if you read through my posts at all or just skim them. 

I have no problem with cut and paste, the problem is not identifying that you did so, trying to pass someone else's work off as you own. When you quote from someone, you should provide a link as a reference so that we can go verify it as well as just being good netiquette. Repeating arguments that others have with my own words is not the same as trying to pass someone's words off as my own. The fact that you can't see the difference just confirms what I said about you earlier. If you remember, my initial post stated very clearly that these were arguments from a Jewish perspective, not an atheist one or one that I came up with personally. I really don't know where I made it sound like my arguments were original. YOU might have inferred that but I never once implied it.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 8, 2010)

rzza said:


> heres a question though ....
> i am athiest. however im having an extremely hard time trying to comprehend life, the beginning and how/why our universe stays soooo perfectly in tact. im of course talking about our moon and sun and earth and its spinning and day and night etc....
> 
> could someone talk about that or link me to a pretty good and simplistic article that may help me understand it better?
> ...


Hey rzza, good post, I feel really similar on a lot of these issues as you do. I became an atheist a little over 4 years ago, since then I've been trying to figure out how the world/universe actually exists/operates instead of just listening to all the religious figures with all the answers... 

That search inevitably leads you to asking the questions you just asked. I had the exact same questions, and that's a great start, imo. 

So I'll try to answer them to the best of my ability. I'm not a college graduate, but I'm not going to lie to you, if I don't know something I'll be straight up honest about it. It's best for both of us when that happens cuz then we can both find the answer if we need to, one of us wont have to pretend we know... 

So first of all, life is *extremely complex* and takes millions of different forms, the thing about that is they* all* have similarities, no matter how far away the two species of animals. For example, every single life form we've ever discovered is Carbon based. Another similarity is they all share DNA. DNA and genetics play a huge role in evolutionary biology and tell us an accurate story of common ancestry within the animal kingdom. Now a believer has to ask himself... why would a being with unlimited power use the same element to create life? Why aren't there silicone based lifeforms? Why not any other elements? Also, why use the exact same base structure (DNA with four base pairs) for *every single living thing*? 

That never made sense to me...

The beginning of life on Earth is still a mystery to modern science. There are some good ideas with evidence to support them, but the bottom line is we still don't know exactly how life got started on Earth. 

As soon as it did though we have *really good ideas* about what happened. 

The solar system started out with a large expansion of space/time, during the first part of the universe's creation after the initial expansion all that existed were the simplest forms of matter, elements with only a single proton, electron and neutron, Hydrogen. Later, Hydrogen atoms fused together due to gravity to form Helium, the element with 2 protons, electrons and neutrons. You can guess how long this process took, as a single element has an extremely weak reaction to the force of gravity, we're talking hundreds of millions, if not billions of years to make this happen, Hydrogen fusing into Helium. After that, the process continued, pulling more and more of the stray elements together, fusing Hydrogen with Helium, Helium with Lithium, etc. Eventually, enough matter was pulled together and enough heat was created to ignite the stars. (in my mind, this moment had to have been one of the most awe inspiring moments in the entire history of the universe, complete darkness to brilliant points of glowing matter billions of miles away in all directions!). 

Out of the stars, everything else is born. Every single atom inside your body right now came from inside of a star. If that doesn't take the steam completely out of organized religion, what possibly ever could?! 

So after our star ignited, there was still massive amounts of dust and debris from all the material that our Sun didn't collect during it's creation. As this is all happening, because of gravity, all the material collects into a disk, a lot like Saturn's ring system, you could imagine the planet Saturn being the early Sun, and it's ring system being the debris that would eventually form the planets. 

So this process again takes an extremely long time to complete, it's hard to understand the time scales involved because of our human perception. 

Eventually, most of the material collects into planetoids, which are early crude versions of our current planets, these are bodies with massive amounts of craters, no atmosphere, no water or oxygen, just rocks, in space orbiting the biggest thing out there, which would be our sun. The bigger the object the more gravity it holds. 

Every single planet, with the exception of a few _moons_ that orbit some of our outer planets, orbits in the exact same way, this is further evidence of the disk creation theory I mentioned above. The outer planets are so massive a few of them have captured passing meteors heading the opposite direction of the planets orbit and locked them into orbit around that planet. Creationists use this as evidence against the disk theory, which it's not. 

Youtube is an excellent source if you're interested in a visual experience. I'll find a good video explaining all the shit I just posted and post it so it might be a little easier to understand..

Perfect! Found just the man for the job!

Carl Motherfucking Sagan

[youtube]ShJwq3aPLMk&feature=related[/youtube]

[youtube]xxQR6gdd1P0[/youtube]

I'm not sure if I've ever heard the skeptics guide to the galaxy but I've heard Shermer speak before, that guys great, especially the debates he has! Great speaker


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## djruiner (Nov 8, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Is that the only argument you have huh. Education fail? Lets see your Hebrew or Greek translations. Oh wait you probably barely understand English.Try to come to the debate with some insight on any of these subjects.


hey there dipshit...dont take it personal that your ass got busted...and i made a few points and had a few questions that you nor any of the other sheep could answer


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> You must be smoking some fine shit.
> 
> Seriously, put down the weed for 5 minutes. Where did I add my own words to the chapter? I quoted directly from the NIV. The only thing I added was to bold the pertinent sentences to prove my point. Not one Jew that I have ever met thinks that Isaiah 7 is about the messiah, unless they are a "Messianic Jew" which is code for Jews that become Christian but retain their Jewish traditions. Hell, I bet no one here in this forum will think it after reading my post. You're the only one, when faced with the facts, still continue to deny them. I think it's hilarious you call my view extremist, when you are the one trying to make things fit where they don't.


Actually I,m smoking some purple train wreck. It's train wreck x purple urkle. Definitely does the job. Any ways this is the last scripture I will give to you on this subject. You can read it or not. Titus 3:9-12.


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## karri0n (Nov 8, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> karri0n, if the Bible was objectively true, like Christians say it is, then why would people change what they believe is right and wrong with the times? Wouldn't what is right and wrong stay the same all throughout time? Why was it considered to be OK during the time the Bible was written to kill homosexuals? Why is that not considered to be OK today?


Never once did I claim the bible is objectively true. 



Padawanbater2 said:


> Do you see any Muslims in this thread? I don't. How bout any Scientologists? No? Buddhists?... Hindu's? No?
> 
> Just Christians and atheists.
> 
> I don't address EVERYTHING else because I don't have time to. Don't get me wrong, they're all equally as illogical. The thing is, and feel free to pass this around to all the other religious people who simply can't grasp this concept, we live in a country that is dominated by Christians. Why do you find it surprising that that is what atheists would talk about most often? Christian dogma directly affects my life in the United States for both good and bad. I'm not affected by Islamic dogma, I'm not forced to live by Sharia law, if I was I would be criticizing it just as harshly. Pretty easy to understand right?


OK. Your biggest problem is with Christianity because it affects you. That's fine and good, except that for most of this thread you've been speaking directly to me, and every one of your points have been about Christianity. I never once stated Christianity is the right way, and I've denounced the Christian dogma repeatedly. You know my stance on fundamentalism yet you continue to bring up the same points.




Padawanbater2 said:


> It's not the fact that science and education are the first things to get discarded in a childs mind when their parents tell them about their religion.. Nah, couldn't be that...




Please elaborate on how teaching a child meditation or mythology cause science and education to leave a child's mind. Last I knew, they have college courses for mythology, and you can acquire a doctorate in it. Or is this not "true" education?



Padawanbater2 said:


> It's not that billions of people throughout human history have been slaughtered because of a fairy tale... Naaah...


This is the result of tyranny, not spirituality.



Padawanbater2 said:


> It isn't because every single hashed and rehashed version of the same story doesn't make one fucking iota of sense...


The message and the lesson aren't lost simply because the mythology contains sensationalism. Mythology is supposed to be fanciful - that is how it keeps people's attention. It was never meant to be taken literally, even in ancient Greece. Don't even think about replying that some Christians teach that scripture should be taken literally. They are wrong and I've covered that multitple times.



Padawanbater2 said:


> I don't like organized religion because a girl turned me down because I'm not religious.


I know. We covered that.




Padawanbater2 said:


> Reading any of my posts, seriously, how the hell could you come to that conclusion and be serious about it?? I don't understand.


In much the same way that you still are claiming that I'm Christian and that there are only Christians and Atheists in this thread.




Padawanbater2 said:


> This is what you don't understand about being an atheist, because you aren't one yourself. It's a choice you make *for yourself*. Not for anyone else. There really is no "choice" about it because it's just a default position to take in light of absent evidence of a claim.


What, exactly, is it that you think I don't understand? I'm serious on this, please elaborate. I was raised as an atheist; an ACTUAL atheist, not an agnostic. I've been in the exact same position as you - I debated with my boss repeatedly on the nature of spirituality, repeatedly stating everything she said was a pile of bullshit. It wasn't until I truly looked objectively at the evidence and dropped my pre-conceived notions and arrogance that I started to really see the world for what it is. Being a skeptic is only halfway following logic. There is plenty of evidence out there for just how important spirituality is to the human experience, and ignoring it and counting only on something that can be explained with math and statistics is equally as arrogant and ignorant as blindly following scripture. You've never been exposed to anything truly spiritual or had a spiritual experience, and it's apparent that the reason is that the only spiritual model you've ever seen is Christianity. 




Padawanbater2 said:


> Smartest thing you've posted to me yet. I don't say "religion", and never have, because a person practicing their religion at home in *private* isn't a problem. It becomes a problem when these people get together, organize, and try to make everyone else believe the same things they do.


Bullshit. If this were really your belief you wouldn't be arguing with me in the first place. You want everyone else to be an atheist just like the Christian church wants everyone to be Christian. 



Padawanbater2 said:


> Yes it is. Tolerance for other religions is nowhere to be seen in any of them. How bout those ten commandments...
> 
> I am the Lord your God
> *You shall have no other gods before me*


As a Christian, you shall have no other gods before Him. If you aren't Christian, you don't need to worry about that. Not every sect of Christianity treats non-christians as the enemy, and you damn well know it. I'll even point out that there are some sects of Christianity that outright do *not* take that particular stance. The Unity Church is a pretty good example. And once again you say "all religions" when you mean "christianity". Fuck off with that. 




Padawanbater2 said:


> Meant Christianity, suck my balls.


The Old Testament is Jewish. Keep pulling at straws, though. You'll get somewhere, I'm sure.


Ok, work with me here. I know forming something coherent without anti-christian rhetoric or hate in it is going to be difficult for you. Without referring to the obvious human rights issues and disinformation of the three major religions(since you already know my stance on this), give me some valid reasons why teaching people about spirituality, meditation, prayer, and gleaning life lessons from religious mythology(such as do unto others, resist tyranny, don't seek power as power corrupts) is something negative and something to be resisted and fought against. I want a reason that religion and spirituality IN GENERAL are negative things, not "well the Roman Emperor used it as an excuse to do this or that" - If not for religion he would have found another reason to commit these acts of atrocity.


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## mindphuk (Nov 8, 2010)

[youtube]B1AXbpYndGc[/youtube]


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## rzza (Nov 8, 2010)

well padawan, i wasnt sure that you would even respond let alone with such detail. thanks for that. i have read your statement and i will go through and read it again before jumping into the videos you supplied me with. this should be a good start to a great journey. 
quick question though, how long after the big bang do we expect the earth was thrown in the rotation?


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 8, 2010)

rzza said:


> well padawan, i wasnt sure that you would even respond let alone with such detail. thanks for that. i have read your statement and i will go through and read it again before jumping into the videos you supplied me with. this should be a good start to a great journey.
> quick question though, how long after the big bang do we expect the earth was thrown in the rotation?


They estimate the big bang happened 13.7 billion years ago +/- with a 1%-3% margin of error, they estimate our Sun is around 4.57 billion years old;







The Earth and the rest of the planets were formed shortly after the Sun, so also around that time.


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## rzza (Nov 8, 2010)

omg what if we (human race along with stable living environment) make it for ..lets say twenty billion years. could we evolve to having tires instead of feet for example? i mean we could evolve into real human vehicles. or transformers if you will ...


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## djruiner (Nov 8, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> They estimate the big bang happened 13.7 billion years ago +/- with a 1%-3% margin of error, they estimate our Sun is around 4.57 billion years old;
> 
> 
> 
> ...


wait wait wait...i thought things like this was made in 7 days.well they also believed the earth the flat,invisible men,burning bushes,parting of seas,magical places in the clouds....why not...seems they will buy anything. think if you believe all that..might as well believe in zombies,goblins,vampires,werewolves....if you take bullshit package A.,you might has well believe the rest of the myths floating around.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

Coming on this late as hell, i know, but emotions aren't a thing, they're a relationship. So while I'm not discounting that there is a god, unless you believe god to be a relationship rather than an entity, this theory doesn't work well...


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

djruiner said:


> wait wait wait...i thought things like this was made in 7 days.well they also believed the earth the flat,invisible men,burning bushes,parting of seas,magical places in the clouds....why not...seems they will buy anything. think if you believe all that..might as well believe in zombies,goblins,vampires,werewolves....if you take bullshit package A.,you might has well believe the rest of the myths floating around.


 &#8224;LOL&#8224; chick, you are cynical as hell....almost as if they're was an anger behind it. 
as far as "the rest of the myths" Myths are rarely, if ever, what they are made out to be, but the vast majority seemed to be based on reality, though normally a misunderstanding of reality, let me give an example
Vampirism, and the myth that they not only existed but could change into a bat or wolf... = rabies.... &#8224;LOL&#8224; aint that some shit? The animals that most commonly had rabies at the time were bats and k-9's, and of course men could get it as well...So they saw they're neighbor start foaming at the mouth and become a monster, then of course after they put him down, they see a wolf, or bat showing the same foaming at the mouth, and same aggressive behavior, OMG, they're monster/neighbor is undead!!!! with that said, rabies is obviously real, though the misconception was bullshit. 

So I guess my point is, rather than roll your eyes at the bullshit man comes up with, it can be alot more entertaining to find out what was really happening. The facts that lent themselves to fantastic interpretations...


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

rzza said:


> omg what if we (human race along with stable living environment) make it for ..lets say twenty billion years. could we evolve to having tires instead of feet for example? i mean we could evolve into real human vehicles. or transformers if you will ...


I don't *think* so, though with that said, leaving normal evolution out of it, prosthetics could provide a way to do this...why not, they already took some cells from a rat brain, grew it in a special pitri dish with circuit contacts all over it, and plugged it into a computer and taught it to fly a flight simulator....


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## Kushafornia (Nov 8, 2010)

I think humans are not native to earth "]


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## karri0n (Nov 8, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> Vampirism, and the myth that they not only existed but could change into a bat or wolf... = rabies.... &#8224;LOL&#8224; aint that some shit? The animals that most commonly had rabies at the time were bats and k-9's, and of course men could get it as well...So they saw they're neighbor start foaming at the mouth and become a monster, then of course after they put him down, they see a wolf, or bat showing the same foaming at the mouth, and same aggressive behavior, OMG, they're monster/neighbor is undead!!!! with that said, rabies is obviously real, though the misconception was bullshit.


Where did you hear this?


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

start here...
http://www.neurology.org/content/51/3/856.abstract
thats not where I originally heard this, but honestly, can you remember the exact source of every useless fact you've ever learned? I googled it for you, then result seemed the most valid...


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

Kushafornia said:


> I think humans are not native to earth "]


 possible...though I would think if that were the case we would have found some remains of what was used to get us here in the first place, but not telling, and honestly, we'll probably never really know one way or the other...


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## karri0n (Nov 8, 2010)

djruiner said:


> wait wait wait...i thought things like this was made in 7 days.well they also believed the earth the flat,invisible men,burning bushes,parting of seas,magical places in the clouds....why not...seems they will buy anything. think if you believe all that..might as well believe in zombies,goblins,vampires,werewolves....if you take bullshit package A.,you might has well believe the rest of the myths floating around.


Or sasquatch , or UFO's, or the coelocanth, or giant squid, or gorillas ...oh wait


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

Since this thread is titled "This is why I believe" and not lets bash people for what they believe. I will state why I believe. 

I grew up in a lower middle class home with two loving parents that did not believe in God. I often heard criticism about God from my parents. So I was not brain washed from an early age as so many claim happens. I was raised in the Florida public school system in the City of Tampa. I was arrested my first time at the age of 9 for burglary and by the time I was 16 I had been convicted of 1 burglary, 2 marijuana possessions, 1 grand theft auto, 1 destruction of private property, 1 misdemeanor battery, 1 felony assault, and 1 misdemeanor assault on a school board member. 

I just want to stop here to say that none of this is a reflection on my parents as they did everything in their power to control me. But I did what ever I wanted to do with no fear of any consequences. With that said my neighborhood and school was dead smack in between the projects and the suburbs. Needless to say I moved my family out of that area. I moved out of my parents house at 16 and supported myself by selling weed, coke, acid, rolls, roofies, stolen goods, guns, and what ever I thought I could make a dollar with. Hell I even use to sell direct tv H cards back when you could program them yourself. Needless to say I barely finished high school. 

I had a daughter at 17 and a son at 19. The realities of having a family motivated me to go back to school and get my degree. I ended up with a decent Job working in the field that I went to school for. Everything seemed good and I had for the most part separated myself from most of the people I had previously associated with. But that did not last long. After 911 the tech market crashed and massive layoff swept through the industry. I ended up loosing my job and could not find work in that same field for quite some time. This mixed with the inability to let go of the ideals of my childhood led to the demise of my marriage. 

So there I was with no Job and no family. I was angry that I had done all the things that society taught me is the way to go and I still ended up out on the streets. So that is what I reverted to. I went back to the only other way of life that I knew. I went back to the only other thing that I was successful at. So there I was back on the streets that I had barely escaped from as a teen. It wasn't long before I was back in trouble with the law and found myself in county jail on several different occasions. One particular visit to the county jail was when my journey to God began. I was in on a simple driving on a suspended license charge which came with the usual 1 week maximum sentence. Normally you would just spend the night and see the judge in the morning and receive a fine and then released. 

So right from the get go all the normal processes where thrown out the window. First I did not get to see the judge that first morning. Then I was transferred from the short term intake facility to the maximum security facility for violent felons and people with sentences longer than 6 months but less than a year unless they are still waiting trial. This was very unusual given my misdemeanor driving charge. Then I was placed into a trustee pod (which I was not. only long term inmates could become trustees) I just assumed that the docket was full for court that day and figured I was in for the maximum of one week. 

The first day I was in the long term facility I ran into a friend from my old neighborhood. You know how every neighborhood has that one crazy kid that just always got into the most trouble and was always instigating things. Well that was this guy. He was actually friends with my older brother and had always treated me like his younger brother. Well he was in there waiting trial for attempted murder and armed robbery of another drug dealer. He had waived his right to a speedy trial and had been purposely postponing his trial in hopes that the dealer would disappear. Which he did oddly enough. So anyways he introduced me to another guy that I wish I could remember his name. My friend and this other guy began preaching the gospel to me every day. I just blew it off for the first week and wanted nothing to do with it. But then that week turned into two and then three. The whole time being preached to. They basically bribed me with canteen to get me to do Bible studies with them. I finally got bored enough to start studying with them. I then found some of it quite interesting. This was the first time I started really reading the Bible. 

Every day I would go ask the guards to tell me what the hell was going on as I had been in for three weeks and still did not have a court date. Even the guards said that this was very odd for the charge that I was booked on. Every morning I would pick a random spot in the Bible to read. Three days in a row I opened the book to a passage that talked about fasting. I mentioned this to my friend and the other guy and they explained how and why I should fast. Needless to say I was very skeptical of this whole fasting thing since it made no sense to me at all. But seems how the food sucked any way and I knew I could trade my food for other crap I decided to give it a try. So the next day I skipped all three meals and spent the whole day in solitude reading the Bible and praying to God. It was not till later that night that I went to the Bible study and during the group prayer I felt this overwhelming feeling come over me. I physically felt the presence of Jesus and the holy spirit coursing through my veins. It traveled from my head down to my toes. I felt a physical transformation. It was like a whole new insight was given to me at that moment. I went to bed that night wondering what that feeling was. 

At this point no one had any clue as to why I was still in jail. All the other inmates thought I must have been in for something much more serious and just did not want to tell anyone. But then that same night I was awaken by a guard. He proceeded to tell me that I was being released for time served. Now I still had not gone to court so there is no way for me to have been given time served. It was at that very moment laying on my slab staring up at this guard that I realized the power of God. I understood at that moment what God had done. I was released with no other explanation of what had happened. 

From that moment forward it was like there was an unstoppable force compelling me to change my ways. I have since reconciled my marriage with my wife and am once again a father to my children. Shortly after I was released from jail I received a job offer from a company that I had not even applied to. They said my resume was forwarded to them from the collage that I had graduated from as part of a job placement program that I did not sign up for. Keep in mind this was almost 2 years after I had graduated. That company was then bought out by a company based out of Colorado and they paid for me to move up. Every since that final day in county jail the Bible has been speaking to me and instructing me on how and where I need to improve on my life. It has changed everything that I ever perceived as reality. I can now see a new reality, a reality that completely contradicts what society teaches. 

Before I was saved it was every man for himself and anyone who got in my way was dealt with swiftly and cruelly. Now that I have been saved its more like how can I serve and help. Don't get me wrong I still struggle with the temptations of every day life. I am not perfect and still sin on a daily bases. But there is no logic to what has happened to me. The only answer is that I was saved by Gods grace alone. And without God I surely would have ended up with my friend awaiting trial for some violent crime.

I am sure many will criticize me for this post but I felt compelled to share. I just hope that this post can serve as an example of Gods wondrous works and glory. If any other Christians have a story than I would encourage you to please share. Share your story and possibly show others God's true works of love and compassion towards those who do not deserve it.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

ummm....can you some that up? I dunno, but thats borderline thread jacking. Not insulting your views, merely suggesting that perhaps you should start a new thread for sharing what are known in the christian community as testimonies...granted, count on there being a troll, but lets face it, you knew that shit was going to happen


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> ummm....can you some that up? I dunno, but thats borderline thread jacking. Not insulting your views, merely suggesting that perhaps you should start a new thread for sharing what are known in the christian community as testimonies...granted, count on there being a troll, but lets face it, you knew that shit was going to happen



I felt that the original poster wanted to share why they believe. Not to debate religion. Which I will admit that I was one of the main people that instigated some of this debate. You are probably correct though. I should have started a new thread for this and I apologize if this is viewed as thread jacking. And yes as I stated in my post I fully expect criticism on this subject as is the case on every thread I have read on this site referring to God.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> I felt that the original poster wanted to share why they believe. Not to debate religion. Which I will admit that I was one of the main people that instigated some of this debate. You are probably correct though. I should have started a new thread for this and I apologize if this is viewed as thread jacking. And yes as I stated in my post I fully expect criticism on this subject as is the case on every thread I have read on this site referring to God.


 &#8224;L&#8224; yea, I've noticed. A large percentage of our community seem to not just be atheist, but straight up anti-religion. Its amazing how closed minded the self proclaimed "logical" tend to be...


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## djruiner (Nov 8, 2010)

agreed with the umm...a few comments ago damn you fuckers post too fast..ha...that sounded like a pitch to me.and it sounds like about every other story from people that have spent time in prison...whats your choices...least he didnt become a body building prick...or muslim...what else can you shoot for.now what about those that have had the same lifestyle..prison,drugs,bad childhood...and so on that do the same things...get out of prison..make a life for themselves...and lead a completely happy life..without finding god?its 50/50....you cant give credit to someone or something that you have no idea if it even had involvement for the change in situation.as like the OP was talking about as it comes to emotions..i think people that "feel" gods presence are having nothing more than a feeling...emotion...that god is there watching over them.i was raised a little different...never had anyone in my family that spoke of church..god..religion..any of that.ive never been to jail..nor even detained.i have a very happy life,comfortable,fulfilling..and guess what..i did all this without getting up early on sunday,dressing up to be filled in a hot ass church to give them money so the preacher can make his hummer note.so do you think maybe that god had nothing to do with your success?do you not think that you have the ability inside you to have this success?what about those that dont go to church,dont worship the lord..and lead a very happy and civil life?and what about those that do hand their lives over to the lord,dont make it,live in a box,cant get a meal without begging for it...where is the lord for them.they go to church..lead a good life..but still get the shitty end of the deal.you know why...50/50...some just use the bible as a crutch...they cant figure life out on their own..so they think the lord will lead them the way...even though some get led off a cliff


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

djruiner said:


> agreed with the umm...a few comments ago damn you fuckers post too fast..ha...that sounded like a pitch to me.and it sounds like about every other story from people that have spent time in prison...whats your choices...least he didnt become a body building prick...or muslim...what else can you shoot for.now what about those that have had the same lifestyle..prison,drugs,bad childhood...and so on that do the same things...get out of prison..make a life for themselves...and lead a completely happy life..without finding god?its 50/50....you cant give credit to someone or something that you have no idea if it even had involvement for the change in situation.as like the OP was talking about as it comes to emotions..i think people that "feel" gods presence are having nothing more than a feeling...emotion...that god is there watching over them.i was raised a little different...never had anyone in my family that spoke of church..god..religion..any of that.ive never been to jail..nor even detained.i have a very happy life,comfortable,fulfilling..and guess what..i did all this without getting up early on sunday,dressing up to be filled in a hot ass church to give them money so the preacher can make his hummer note.so do you think maybe that god had nothing to do with your success?do you not think that you have the ability inside you to have this success?what about those that dont go to church,dont worship the lord..and lead a very happy and civil life?and what about those that do hand their lives over to the lord,dont make it,live in a box,cant get a meal without begging for it...where is the lord for them.they go to church..lead a good life..but still get the shitty end of the deal.you know why...50/50...some just use the bible as a crutch...they cant figure life out on their own..so they think the lord will lead them the way...even though some get led off a cliff


I have conflicting views on god/religion. I started studying the occult at age 6 while being raised catholic (great stuff, being taught whats considered an abomination to the other group I'm being taught by) I know they're are forces we can't explain that we use in casting, but I firmly believe that a scientific principal has to be behind them that we don't understand, or they wouldn't work. I have to agree that I've seen many a good people, god fearing people, that followed all his laws find nothing but misery in this world. I KNOW you don't get punished at least on this earth for disregarding god. 

On another note, ya'll try this one on...
They're is a theory that a thought can take on form, as such, every god that has ever believed to have existed has indeed, and was created by the believers that prayed to them...


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## djruiner (Nov 8, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> I felt that the original poster wanted to share why they believe. Not to debate religion. Which I will admit that I was one of the main people that instigated some of this debate. You are probably correct though. I should have started a new thread for this and I apologize if this is viewed as thread jacking. And yes as I stated in my post I fully expect criticism on this subject as is the case on every thread I have read on this site referring to God.


no worries...threads seem to go off track at times..and it falls into line with whats being talked about..now had you asked if your plants a female and posted pics..that would have been the wrong thread.and any thread about religion will have results like this...its nothing new.people have been debating religion for hundreds of years.its about keeping it civil and not instantly ignoring whats said...like i said before...i really tried as it comes to being religious..and in no way did it work for me....i know before going in i was putting up somewhat of a wall...but after many years i made the choice to not choose organized religion...i didnt feel it in my heart and wasnt going to keep searching for something...that for me...wasnt there.discussions like this need to happen...it might change the ideas of someone...either which way they choose to take...everyone should have all the evidence and theories in front of them...to make the choice on their own.


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

djruiner said:


> agreed with the umm...a few comments ago damn you fuckers post too fast..ha...that sounded like a pitch to me.and it sounds like about every other story from people that have spent time in prison...whats your choices...least he didnt become a body building prick...or muslim...what else can you shoot for.now what about those that have had the same lifestyle..prison,drugs,bad childhood...and so on that do the same things...get out of prison..make a life for themselves...and lead a completely happy life..without finding god?its 50/50....you cant give credit to someone or something that you have no idea if it even had involvement for the change in situation.as like the OP was talking about as it comes to emotions..i think people that "feel" gods presence are having nothing more than a feeling...emotion...that god is there watching over them.i was raised a little different...never had anyone in my family that spoke of church..god..religion..any of that.ive never been to jail..nor even detained.i have a very happy life,comfortable,fulfilling..and guess what..i did all this without getting up early on sunday,dressing up to be filled in a hot ass church to give them money so the preacher can make his hummer note.so do you think maybe that god had nothing to do with your success?do you not think that you have the ability inside you to have this success?what about those that dont go to church,dont worship the lord..and lead a very happy and civil life?and what about those that do hand their lives over to the lord,dont make it,live in a box,cant get a meal without begging for it...where is the lord for them.they go to church..lead a good life..but still get the shitty end of the deal.you know why...50/50...some just use the bible as a crutch...they cant figure life out on their own..so they think the lord will lead them the way...even though some get led off a cliff


Yeah well you can call it whatever you want man. I know what I know and all your reasoning can never explain it or force me to change my mind. God bless brother and I hope that one day you can experience the presence of God.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 8, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Yeah well you can call it whatever you want man. I know what I know and all your reasoning can never explain it or force me to change my mind. God bless brother and I hope that one day you can experience the presence of God.


 Its my understanding ruiner is a chick...not to mention thats the most open minded about the matter I've ever seen her, but whatever...


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## djruiner (Nov 8, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Yeah well you can call it whatever you want man. I know what I know and all your reasoning can never explain it or force me to change my mind. God bless brother and I hope that one day you can experience the presence of God.


not trying to change your mind...thats my whole point.people are free to choose how they live their life.im not against religion..it has many good things about it...and many bad.it just wasnt for me.i just think as you have the right to tell everyone why you do believe...that i have the right to say why i dont believe.people that dont worship get more flack over it then those that do...all i ever hear is im going to hell,im a sinner,i need to be saved....seems like a lot of negative shit to me.yet is blasphemy for me to speak against it...its too close minded and one sided for me


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## djruiner (Nov 8, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> Its my understanding ruiner is a chick...not to mention thats the most open minded about the matter I've ever seen her, but whatever...


where the hell did you get that?*checks between legs*..yeah thats a dick...you might be thinking of The Ruiner thats on here...ive gone by dj ruiner since i started djing on air...a good 6 years ago...most call me dj..thats just my job...ruiners my name...but not the ruiner...im not retarded enough to refer to myself in the 3rd person i guess


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## Drgreenz (Nov 8, 2010)

I gotta say i don't think what crackerboy did came close to threadjacking at all, in fact i think that is exactly what this thread was intended for. Why i believe and he then said "what do you think? give me your criticisms and thoughts. so the author left it open for these branches to spread out, which is a good thing in my opinion. One thing i think we have to keep in mind as we discuss religious views though is the fact that reality is mearely our illusion of the world and that while we may hold certain beliefs, those beliefs may very well be really really wrong, no matter which side we fall on.

with that, crackerboy, just for you, this is why i believe. Note, i was raised in a wealthy family by an athiest mother and a zen bhudist father, i have studied extensively every major world religion, ive read the torah, bible, q'ran, i'ching, you name it. And really had no personal beliefs.
in the summer of 2003 i was 18, i got sick with a neurological disease called GBS. it is a paralysing sickness. while in the ICU i eventually got to where i was completely paralyzed from the neck down. the sickness had affected my heart and my lung function had dropped to about 50% of normal function. The doctors ordered that the next morning i be intebated and placed on a ventilator. That night while i was layin there i prayed for the first real time in my life, not to get better, or to walk again but i asked God to simply end this bullshit, and that i don't want to live like this anymore.
That nite i flatlined twice, i was legally dead two times and they were able to resuscitate me. The next morning when they tried to put in the trach and vent me i was pushing thier arms away(still completely out of it from drugs and endorphines and wutnot) The doctors still have no explenation as to why or how i had what happened to me happen. But all i know is while i may have alot of jacked up neurological problems right now, i can walk around.


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## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

djruiner said:


> not trying to change your mind...thats my whole point.people are free to choose how they live their life.im not against religion..it has many good things about it...and many bad.it just wasnt for me.i just think as you have the right to tell everyone why you do believe...that i have the right to say why i dont believe.people that dont worship get more flack over it then those that do...all i ever hear is im going to hell,im a sinner,i need to be saved....seems like a lot of negative shit to me.yet is blasphemy for me to speak against it...its too close minded and one sided for me



Believe me I completely understand. I used to feel the same way. I hope that I have not at any point come across like one of these people. Although I have been known to snap back at people. But that's my old ways surfacing. I may be a Christian but I am also an American. Which means I fully believe in the freedom of speech. As you can probably tell from my prior post I kind of enjoy the debate. It is this freedom that has made this the greatest country on earth regardless of all the other flaws.


----------



## crackerboy (Nov 8, 2010)

Drgreenz said:


> I gotta say i don't think what crackerboy did came close to threadjacking at all, in fact i think that is exactly what this thread was intended for. Why i believe and he then said "what do you think? give me your criticisms and thoughts. so the author left it open for these branches to spread out, which is a good thing in my opinion. One thing i think we have to keep in mind as we discuss religious views though is the fact that reality is mearely our illusion of the world and that while we may hold certain beliefs, those beliefs may very well be really really wrong, no matter which side we fall on.
> 
> with that, crackerboy, just for you, this is why i believe. Note, i was raised in a wealthy family by an athiest mother and a zen bhudist father, i have studied extensively every major world religion, ive read the torah, bible, q'ran, i'ching, you name it. And really had no personal beliefs.
> in the summer of 2003 i was 18, i got sick with a neurological disease called GBS. it is a paralysing sickness. while in the ICU i eventually got to where i was completely paralyzed from the neck down. the sickness had affected my heart and my lung function had dropped to about 50% of normal function. The doctors ordered that the next morning i be intebated and placed on a ventilator. That night while i was layin there i prayed for the first real time in my life, not to get better, or to walk again but i asked God to simply end this bullshit, and that i don't want to live like this anymore.
> That nite i flatlined twice, i was legally dead two times and they were able to resuscitate me. The next morning when they tried to put in the trach and vent me i was pushing thier arms away(still completely out of it from drugs and endorphines and wutnot) The doctors still have no explenation as to why or how i had what happened to me happen. But all i know is while i may have alot of jacked up neurological problems right now, i can walk around.



It's amazing how one moment you can be on the edge of death and the next your body had defied what the doctors probably considered impossible. Quick question, can you recall any feelings or dreams that may have occurred during those flat lines?


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## kanabis (Nov 8, 2010)

If atoms can be influenced by magnetic fields, heat, cold, etc. It is fairly acceptable they do affect us.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 9, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Never once did I claim the bible is objectively true.


 Never once did I claim you claimed it was! Imagine that. 



karri0n said:


> OK. Your biggest problem is with Christianity because it affects you. That's fine and good, except that for most of this thread you've been speaking directly to me, and every one of your points have been about Christianity. I never once stated Christianity is the right way, and I've denounced the Christian dogma repeatedly. You know my stance on fundamentalism yet you continue to bring up the same points.


Like I said before, you've been taking the position of _defending_ Christianity against the points I and MP have been making _against_ it. 




karri0n said:


> Please elaborate on how teaching a child meditation or mythology cause science and education to leave a child's mind. Last I knew, they have college courses for mythology, and you can acquire a doctorate in it. Or is this not "true" education?




"meditation or mythology" - that's what you think "teaching your kid your religion" means? 

Well fuck, there's the problem! There's absolutely nothing wrong with teaching a child meditation or mythology, which teaching any religion *isn't*. 

When you tell a kid something in such absolute terms, ie. words like "eternity", "forever", etc. they take it as fact, they're not old enough to discern for themselves the difference between simple mythology and reality, especially if it's coming from a figure of authority who commands trust already, like a parent. 




karri0n said:


> This is the result of tyranny, not spirituality.




Human beings would not be able to be led to their deaths if they didn't believe the in the ridiculous things their religion promises them. 

When was the last time you saw an atheist suicide bomber? 




karri0n said:


> It was never meant to be taken literally




Which parts are and which parts aren't? How do you know? Why do so many Christians disagree about this simple question? Most of the Christians I know would say the Bible is inspired by the word of God and written by man, so it would contain errors. So how does someone figure out what the errors are and what the inspired from God parts are? 




karri0n said:


> I know. We covered that.




And I guess it went completely over your head or you're just too lame to admit you're wrong about that point you _tried_ to make. 

You said as an atheist I'd never be interested in someone devoutly religious. The point was proved wrong the moment you said it, as I explained, and after more thought, it was more like 1/3 because I was atheist, the other 2/3's were because I smoke weed and because she's moving away for college. 

But you proved yourself to be an asshole with that attempt anyway, so moving on, again... 




karri0n said:


> In much the same way that you still are claiming that I'm Christian and that there are only Christians and Atheists in this thread.


 

Dude, at this point, I don't even think *you* know what you are... What's the name of the thread again... Oh yeah "this is why I believe...", so, why do you believe? 

I suspect you haven't put it out there yet because you know we'd tear it to pieces. Prove me wrong. 

Also, point out anyone in the thread whose not an atheist or a Christian. Anyone whose actually stated clearly what they believe that is.
 


karri0n said:


> What, exactly, is it that you think I don't understand?


We don't have time for that... 



karri0n said:


> I'm serious on this, please elaborate.


...dude, seriously, there's just not enough time, I'm sorry... 



karri0n said:


> I was raised as an atheist; an ACTUAL atheist, not an agnostic.


ROFL @ that! How is one "raised atheist"? "Henry!! Come in here!" "yeah mom..?" "You better not be believing in God in there!!" "I'm not mom..." "cuz Goddamnit you know you were raised ATHEIST!!"..

Give me a break. You aren't "raised atheist". You decide for yourself when you think past the bullshit that organized religion is. The entire concept of God and just about everything that goes along with is is simply impossible in logistical terms. If your God doesn't think in logistical terms, then he's not omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, then he's not God. 
 


karri0n said:


> It wasn't until I truly looked objectively at the evidence and dropped my pre-conceived notions and arrogance that I started to really see the world for what it is.


Why are you holding out? Provide me with the evidence you were shown that made you change your mind.



karri0n said:


> Being a skeptic is only halfway following logic. There is plenty of evidence out there for just how important spirituality is to the human experience, and ignoring it and counting only on something that can be explained with math and statistics is equally as arrogant and ignorant as blindly following scripture.


That sounds like something you would hear George Bush say, holy shit.. 

"you have to ask questions and be skeptical, but you can't trust the answers to the questions" .. What?? 

You state shit like this and don't even realize the clear benefit the scientific method provides. That's why it's there. It takes the human error out of the equation.

Science win. Religion fail.

Science - test, observe, measure, track, record, test again, compare results, refine conclusions, understand the universe a little bit better

Religion - trust, believe, have faith, pray, pay, ask forgiveness



karri0n said:


> You've never been exposed to anything truly spiritual or had a spiritual experience, and it's apparent that the reason is that the only spiritual model you've ever seen is Christianity.


Wrong. The reason is because I know what you people would consider a "religious experience" isn't anything more than simple explainable bodily functions. It's really that fuckin' simple man, and it's amazing to me you can't see that.

See, what happens when I get a little tingle downstairs... I don't say "oh shit, was that Jesus touching my nuts?!"... I realize "hey, I GET tingles down there, I'm a biological creature with billions of moving parts, tingles are bound to happen...", and that's that. 

I don't sit there and ponder for hours on end asking myself "what was that?!". I'm educated enough to realize that attributing every little thing to a god would be, frankly, retarded, not to mention *inconsistent*, which is another word the Christian "word of the day" calender makers should add to the list... 
 


karri0n said:


> Bullshit. If this were really your belief you wouldn't be arguing with me in the first place. You want everyone else to be an atheist just like the Christian church wants everyone to be Christian.


Nope, wrong again, you must love being wrong, damn...

I know *it's not my right* to make anyone believe anything, not to mention, not my fucking job. I think it is the individuals obligation and responsibility to educate themselves enough to realize this shit is the literal ball and chain around the ankle of humanities 21st century body. It's like a crackhead cousin who we love so much we can't send them to rehab. They drain all our resources and give us no respect, but fuck, we love the guy! And all you passive believers are the enablers. The people who see nothing wrong with what organized religion has done to our species. The people who think standing up for equal rights and defending science is somehow "atheist fundamentalism" or "Christian oppression". ROFL! 
 


karri0n said:


> As a Christian, you shall have no other gods before Him. If you aren't Christian, you don't need to worry about that. Not every sect of Christianity treats non-christians as the enemy, and you damn well know it. I'll even point out that there are some sects of Christianity that outright do *not* take that particular stance. The Unity Church is a pretty good example. And once again you say "all religions" when you mean "christianity". Fuck off with that.


If you're a Christian or a Jew the 10 commandments apply to you. And I'm pretty sure Obama got the Christian right's vote, I mean, even though they think he's a Muslim, right... 

I'll say it again, and you can deny deny deny till the end of the Earth, but I stand by this, *tolerance for other religions aren't present in any of them*. The 10 commandments attest to that with Christianity and Judaism, and I'm pretty sure Islam explains that point pretty clearly. 

It is also *obvious why*. Because other religions are a threat. Proponents of Christianity didn't want anything else to compete with it, just like Muslims don't want anything to compete with Islam. It's exactly the same.



karri0n said:


> Without referring to the obvious human rights issues and disinformation of the three major religions, give me some valid reasons why teaching people about spirituality, meditation, prayer, and gleaning life lessons from religious mythology is something negative and something to be resisted and fought against.


 You can teach someone every single lesson religion provides without telling them they're going to be condemned to an eternity of torment if they don't play by the rules. When people do things for the wrong reasons they don't learn anything about making the right choices. We have the wealthiest country in human history, but are plagued by problems organized religion provides. It poisons almost every single issue we face in one way or another. This is why I take such a harsh stance against it, because it's literally everywhere, causing or perpetuating every single problem out there. You name it, I'll show you how.



crackerboy said:


> I was arrested my first time at the age of 9 for burglary and by the time I was 16 I had been convicted of 1 burglary, 2 marijuana possessions, 1 grand theft auto, 1 destruction of private property, 1 misdemeanor battery, 1 felony assault, and 1 misdemeanor assault on a school board member.
> 
> I just want to stop here to say that none of this is a reflection on my parents as they did everything in their power to control me. But I did what ever I wanted to do with no fear of any consequences.


crackerboy, first thanks for sharing the story. Gave insight into your reasons, which is the point of the thread. I think you're being honest about it and actually believe everything that happened to you the way it did.

With that said, my assessment of your post is probably going to offend you, I thought about it and there doesn't seem to be a way around it, so I hope you don't take it personally, because that's not how it is at all, I hope you understand that.

It sounds like you had a pretty laid back childhood with relatively lax parents who didn't hit the discipline button very much, which is why I think you didn't develop any real sense of right and wrong early on and also simply dismissed the entire aspect of consequences until after you did whatever you wanted to do and ended up facing them. 

Your tale of finding Jesus in jail isn't uncommon at all. And everything you said, in my mind, can simply be marked up as explainable coincidence. At the time you were in a state of mind, as you were being given Bible readings and studying daily, to *want *to believe this stuff was real. I mean think about it, what actual evidence do you have? Does anyone ever have? Why is it always some kind of a feeling or emotion? Why not something tangible, something measurable, observable? 

I know why. I've thought about why. There is only one answer why. It is because if there was something to measure, the measurement would come out wrong. If there was something to observe, we'd observe it differently. As we have done, as we DO do all the time. 

Why are some people so susceptible to God but others not at all?


----------



## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Never once did I claim you claimed it was! Imagine that.
> 
> 
> Like I said before, you've been taking the position of _defending_ Christianity against the points I and MP have been making _against_ it.
> ...


OH, COME ON!!! REALLY?! Do you realize we are mostly stoners here? how the hell are you going to make a post that big?!! and in some funky color!! goddammit, it better be damn interesting!!! I won't know till tomorrow, I'll be damned if i'm killing my eyes with that color for that long...hell, I'm probably not included in the replies any damn ways... 
wait, all those are a reply to ONE person?!! SON OF A BITCH!! HELL NO I'M NOT READING THAT!! Karrion, give us a summary in 3 sentences or less...no run ons dammit..


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 9, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> OH, COME ON!!! REALLY?! Do you realize we are mostly stoners here? how the hell are you going to make a post that big?!! and in some funky color!! goddammit, it better be damn interesting!!! I won't know till tomorrow, I'll be damned if i'm killing my eyes with that color for that long...hell, I'm probably not included in the replies any damn ways...
> wait, all those are a reply to ONE person?!! SON OF A BITCH!! HELL NO I'M NOT READING THAT!! Karrion, give us a summary in 3 sentences or less...no run ons dammit..


Greens easy on the eyes man, that's why I use it.

I multi quote so people know exactly what I'm talking about or referencing, trust me it makes it a lot easier that way.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Greens easy on the eyes man, that's why I use it.
> 
> I multi quote so people know exactly what I'm talking about or referencing, trust me it makes it a lot easier that way.


&#8224;L&#8224; no, its not that, its that you wrote a short essay for one person, and it wasn't me... 
And yes, for kerri, that will definately make it easier to figure out which post your answering to with each post, understand that, but damn, an essay?!

though, while i didn't nearly read all of it, you can raise a kid athiest. All that is is telling your kid from day one, "kid, your gonna go to school, and they're going to feed you some bullshit about some old man in the clouds watching your every move, and they'll call this mystical thing 'god' its all bullshit, they're is no god, its a fairytale. in this house they're will be no such nonsense..." etc etc etc.

As for the rest of it, you could be right/wrong, my lazy stoner ass may never know.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 9, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> &#8224;L&#8224; no, its not that, its that you wrote a short essay for one person, and it wasn't me...
> And yes, for kerri, that will definately make it easier to figure out which post your answering to with each post, understand that, but damn, an essay?!
> 
> though, while i didn't nearly read all of it, you can raise a kid athiest. All that is is telling your kid from day one, "kid, your gonna go to school, and they're going to feed you some bullshit about some old man in the clouds watching your every move, and they'll call this mystical thing 'god' its all bullshit, they're is no god, its a fairytale. in this house they're will be no such nonsense..." etc etc etc.
> ...


I understand, I'll make my posts more concise in the future.

At one point, I had a discussion going with a guy that reached 29 pages long and took a week to respond to!


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## crackerboy (Nov 9, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Never once did I claim you claimed it was! Imagine that.
> 
> 
> Like I said before, you've been taking the position of _defending_ Christianity against the points I and MP have been making _against_ it.
> ...



No offense taken man. Unfortunately your assessment is way off. I was in and out of Juvi most of my childhood. I actually grew up in a military home and had to move out of the county twice. But most of my childhood was spent in Tampa FL. Unlike most children now a days, I actually got spanked. Not only spanked but my dad had a special paddle for that ass. I was just that thick headed.


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## rzza (Nov 9, 2010)

raising your kids athiest ....
this is a thread all in its own. ive always concidered teaching my son that god is the way, only because hes so bad and his mom is literally an absconder from jail and is like the worst person i know. i was thinking, put the fear of god in him because otherwise i see him becoming an absolute terror. i no longer think this is the right thing to do and i want him to be raised with morals yet without having to fear the consequences from GOD. he just started school this year and hes already coming home and talking about these things like the guy in the sky and stuff....i dont believe hes hearing it in lechtures but rather from his peers. and then how do i teach him that its all hooplah and expect him to not tell his friends their wrong, because there isnt a god....

when i turned about 24 i started questioning religion and thats when i became athiest. at first i hated my parents and society for allowing me to be blind to the situation for my whole life. i literally was sooo turned around and confused and mad at the world. i dont want my son to live a majority of his life as a believer and then start thinking for himself and be as CONFUSED and UPSET as i was. i just dont know what to do....


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## rzza (Nov 9, 2010)

padawa and anyone who may be interested. 

heres a link to that podcast i was talking about.... http://www.theskepticsguide.org/archive/podcast.aspx?mid=1

there are some podcasts that are one to two hours, if you like short n sweet then listen to the 5x5 its only five minutes long each and filled with knowledge.


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## 420God (Nov 9, 2010)

This is what I believe.


----------



## karri0n (Nov 9, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Like I said before, you've been taking the position of _defending_ Christianity against the points I and MP have been making _against_ it.




I'm defending religion and spirituality and have denounced Christianity multiple times.





Padawanbater2 said:


> "meditation or mythology" - that's what you think "teaching your kid your religion" means?
> 
> Well fuck, there's the problem! There's absolutely nothing wrong with teaching a child meditation or mythology, which teaching any religion *isn't*.


Yes it is.
Just stop. You have absolutely no concept of the meaning of religion. You speak of nothing other than chrisitianity, and your grasp on that is weak as hell too. Protip: The bible is mythology.




Padawanbater2 said:


> Which parts are and which parts aren't? How do you know? Why do so many Christians disagree about this simple question? Most of the Christians I know would say the Bible is inspired by the word of God and written by man, so it would contain errors. So how does someone figure out what the errors are and what the inspired from God parts are?


Everything. It's a book of mythology and metaphor. Even in Jesus' time, his biggest problem was people failing to understand the simple points he was trying to make. Change the book around until it's nearly unrecognizable and add 2000 years to this and you get what we have today.



Padawanbater2 said:


> Dude, at this point, I don't even think *you* know what you are... What's the name of the thread again... Oh yeah "this is why I believe...", so, why do you believe?
> 
> I suspect you haven't put it out there yet because you know we'd tear it to pieces. Prove me wrong.
> 
> Also, point out anyone in the thread whose not an atheist or a Christian. Anyone whose actually stated clearly what they believe that is.


This is your problem. MOST people don't quantify their beliefs into a single label. You're completely stuck on labels and that's all you can think about. I even included one for myself, for your convenience.

I've stated multiple times, clearly, what I believe. It's not my fault if you lack the faculty to use google and look up the word "pagan". 

As to why, the simple answer is because it works. "Tear that to pieces" please.



Padawanbater2 said:


> ...dude, seriously, there's just not enough time, I'm sorry...


cop out much?



Padawanbater2 said:


> ROFL @ that! How is one "raised atheist"? "Henry!! Come in here!" "yeah mom..?" "You better not be believing in God in there!!" "I'm not mom..." "cuz Goddamnit you know you were raised ATHEIST!!"..
> 
> Give me a break. You aren't "raised atheist". You decide for yourself when you think past the bullshit that organized religion is. The entire concept of God and just about everything that goes along with is is simply impossible in logistical terms. If your God doesn't think in logistical terms, then he's not omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, then he's not God.


Nice job with the totally unrelated misquote, but yeah as far as the actual point, this is full of shit. It's really as simple as a parent saying "Don't trust what the churches or bible tell you, it's not true".But deny the way I was raised, go ahead. I'm sure you were there and obviously know better than I do what my mother said to me. 




Padawanbater2 said:


> That sounds like something you would hear George Bush say, holy shit..
> 
> "you have to ask questions and be skeptical, but you can't trust the answers to the questions" .. What??
> 
> ...


More bullshit about Christianity. Not all belief systems work this way.



Padawanbater2 said:


> Nope, wrong again, you must love being wrong, damn...
> 
> I know *it's not my right* to make anyone believe anything, not to mention, not my fucking job. I think it is the individuals obligation and responsibility to educate themselves enough to realize this shit is the literal ball and chain around the ankle of humanities 21st century body. It's like a crackhead cousin who we love so much we can't send them to rehab. They drain all our resources and give us no respect, but fuck, we love the guy! And all you passive believers are the enablers. The people who see nothing wrong with what organized religion has done to our species. The people who think standing up for equal rights and defending science is somehow "atheist fundamentalism" or "Christian oppression". ROFL!


"I think it's everyone's individual responsibility to be an atheist". Thanks for proving my point.



Padawanbater2 said:


> If you're a Christian or a Jew the 10 commandments apply to you. And I'm pretty sure Obama got the Christian right's vote, I mean, even though they think he's a Muslim, right...
> 
> I'll say it again, and you can deny deny deny till the end of the Earth, but I stand by this, *tolerance for other religions aren't present in any of them*. The 10 commandments attest to that with Christianity and Judaism, and I'm pretty sure Islam explains that point pretty clearly.
> 
> It is also *obvious why*. Because other religions are a threat. Proponents of Christianity didn't want anything else to compete with it, just like Muslims don't want anything to compete with Islam. It's exactly the same.


Buddhism, Taoism, daoism, hinduism, yoism, new age spirituality, paganism, wicca, druidism, Jedi, native american worship,

Just a couple of "labeled" religions that don't profess to be the one true way and have no reason to criticize others for their beliefs. It's painfully obvious that atheism doesn't make this list as *ALL* atheists do nothing but put others down for their own beliefs. See what I did there?

Also, 80% of the country (approximate, I don't have the actual figure) Identifies as Christian, so obviously 80% of the country voted Against Barack Obama, right? And he still got in? Wow this is even worse than the Bush elections!




Padawanbater2 said:


> You can teach someone every single lesson religion provides without telling them they're going to be condemned to an eternity of torment if they don't play by the rules. When people do things for the wrong reasons they don't learn anything about making the right choices. We have the wealthiest country in human history, but are plagued by problems organized religion provides. It poisons almost every single issue we face in one way or another. This is why I take such a harsh stance against it, because it's literally everywhere, causing or perpetuating every single problem out there. You name it, I'll show you how.


The same could be said for the corporate greed that permeates all of American society. It's also full of shit that organized religion is responsible for every single problem. Atheism is a pretty big problem and I don't see any organized religion promoting it.



Padawanbater2 said:


> Why are some people so susceptible to God but others not at all?


People are different. The same reason some people cry at movies and others do not, the same reason some people like olives and others do not.


----------



## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

rzza said:


> raising your kids athiest ....
> this is a thread all in its own. ive always concidered teaching my son that god is the way, only because hes so bad and his mom is literally an absconder from jail and is like the worst person i know. i was thinking, put the fear of god in him because otherwise i see him becoming an absolute terror. i no longer think this is the right thing to do and i want him to be raised with morals yet without having to fear the consequences from GOD. he just started school this year and hes already coming home and talking about these things like the guy in the sky and stuff....i dont believe hes hearing it in lechtures but rather from his peers. and then how do i teach him that its all hooplah and expect him to not tell his friends their wrong, because there isnt a god....
> 
> when i turned about 24 i started questioning religion and thats when i became athiest. at first i hated my parents and society for allowing me to be blind to the situation for my whole life. i literally was sooo turned around and confused and mad at the world. i dont want my son to live a majority of his life as a believer and then start thinking for himself and be as CONFUSED and UPSET as i was. i just dont know what to do....


 Honestly, at that age, you can't. You can tell him, but he's gonna tell his friends, and they're will be many fights and he will be targeted by the other kids by that point, because they're all going to believe he's going to hell...my PERSONAL opinion? treat it like santa clause, play along until he's old enough. Not to many people resent their parents for telling the santa was real when they were a kid...


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

420God said:


> This is what I believe.


 &#8224;LHFAO&#8224; how encouraging....


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## Babs34 (Nov 9, 2010)

IregAt420 said:


> ....there is a God.
> Although there isn't any physical proof of his existence, hear me out. I will not be bashing atheism or any one that doesn't believe.
> 
> My example, is Love. It is an emotion we all feel. An emotion we all NEED. It is present in every single persons life, whether they are being loved, or they are loving someone/something(i.e. their BUDS). Now, with that being said, has anyone here seen Love? Physically seen it? Now, I could go on with different emotions, but that would just spread this out too much.
> ...


...rock on 
The one entity known to creation is the lost soul who vehemently questions even the possibility of God...and the one who adamantly, with ferocity, denies that which is not "seen."


May God Bless us ALL.


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## 420God (Nov 9, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> &#8224;LHFAO&#8224; how encouraging....


 Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Lol. 

My family came from Asia, Europe, and America. I was raised around mixed religions and have chosen to be atheist.

My daughter will be given the choice of a bible or a physics book when she's older and she can decide for herself.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

&#8224;LHFAO&#8224; choice between a bible and a physics book...that is fucking awesome...

I think they're is a god, ie, the sum of all matter in existence, but wether it even has a consciousness, let alone give a ratshit about us, I find harder and harder to stomach...lets face it, we use skin cells all the time, but we don't notice nor do we care....,


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## 420God (Nov 9, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> &#8224;LHFAO&#8224; choice between a bible and a physics book...that is fucking awesome...
> 
> I think they're is a god, ie, the sum of all matter in existence, but wether it even has a consciousness, let alone give a ratshit about us, I find harder and harder to stomach...lets face it, we use skin cells all the time, but we don't notice nor do we care....,


 That's the exact way my wife and mother feel. They're not religious but they know there's something more out there.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

Well, its hard to buy "God wrote this book...no really, despite the change in sentence structure, the fact the council of men compiled it, but they just KNEW by the spirit of God that he had indeed written ever last word! Ignore what your common sense can teach you, only truth comes from the bible!!" Despite the fact that they're is less then proof to support it, and if they're is indeed a creating entity that wasted his time on a book, he also created everything else, making any lesson they have at least as valid...


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## karri0n (Nov 9, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> I started studying the occult at age 6 while being raised catholic (great stuff, being taught whats considered an abomination to the other group I'm being taught by) I know they're are forces we can't explain that we use in casting, but I firmly believe that a scientific principal has to be behind them that we don't understand, or they wouldn't work.


Precisely.

Though now I'm intrigued... can you elaborate on your practices


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

karri0n said:


> Precisely.
> 
> Though now I'm intrigued... can you elaborate on your practices


thats a pm conversation...there are witches who think I'm an abomination...(yea, wiccans usually, stuck up little pricks, as self-righteous as any christians I've ever met...)


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## karri0n (Nov 9, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> thats a pm conversation...there are witches who think I'm an abomination...(*yea, wiccans usually*, stuck up little pricks, as self-righteous as any christians I've ever met...)



SHOCKER!!!


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

&#8224;L&#8224; I know....it seems like every suppressed group that gets any freedom from their suppression look to suppress someone else...a vicious cycle...The only historical exception I can think of is the Quakers, and thats the only thing I know about them...


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 9, 2010)

karri0n, I'm not responding to your bullshit anymore, you're just trolling this thread now, purposefully avoiding the points being made and it's obvious.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

not that I know him/her well enought to declare s/he's not a troll, as we've been infested with them lately... (they're getting immune to troll spray)
but the last two post s/he made were towards me, so while yes, s/he was ignoring you, s/he wasn't, at the moment, trolling...


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## karri0n (Nov 9, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> karri0n, I'm not responding to your bullshit anymore, you're just trolling this thread now, purposefully avoiding the points being made and it's obvious.



After I countered all of the points from your last post.... ok.

That's fine. I couldn't stand another reply of "WELL CHRISTIANS DO xxxx" anyway. You already admitted that you think I'm correct:



Padawanbater2 said:


> There's absolutely nothing wrong with teaching a child meditation or mythology





RavenMochi said:


> not that I know him/her well enought to declare s/he's not a troll, as we've been infested with them lately... (they're getting immune to troll spray)
> but the last two post s/he made were towards me, so while yes, s/he was ignoring you, s/he wasn't, at the moment, trolling...


No need to even respond - he knows full well that I wasn't ignoring him. Maybe it finally got through his head that his arguments about christianity are irrelevant to the discussion, and therefore he has no material.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 9, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> No offense taken man. Unfortunately your assessment is way off.


Fair enough. You know your life better than I do. Thanks again for sharing your story. It always interests me to find out what makes people believe.


Alright, I lied, I think I'm going to respond to this. 

I'm defending religion and spirituality and have denounced Christianity multiple times.

_Paganism - is a blanket term, typically used to refer to polytheistic religious traditions, although from a Christian perspective the term can encompass all non-Abrahamic religions.

__In the late 20th century, "Paganism", or "Neopaganism", became widely used in reference to adherents of various New Religious Movements including Wicca. As such, various modern scholars have begun to apply the term to *three groups* of separate faiths: Historical Polytheism (such as Celtic polytheism, Norse paganism, and Hellenic Polytheistic Reconstructionism also called Hellenismos), Folk/ethical/Indigenous religions (such as Chinese folk religion and African traditional religion), and Neopaganism (such as Wicca and Germanic Neopaganism)._
_
_http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagen

Yes it is.
Just stop. You have absolutely no concept of the meaning of religion. You speak of nothing other than chrisitianity, and your grasp on that is weak as hell too. Protip: The bible is mythology.

History contradicts you. 

Everything.

How do you know? 

This is your problem. MOST people don't quantify their beliefs into a single label. 

I didn't say they did. 

As to why, the simple answer is because it works.

What is "it"? 

cop out much?

Tasteless joke 

It's really as simple as a parent saying "Don't trust what the churches or bible tell you, it's not true".

Really? I didn't know that's all it took to be an atheist! Holy shit I wasted a lot of time reading! 

More bullshit about Christianity. Not all belief systems work this way.

Belief systems not based on reality work that way. 

"I think it's everyone's individual responsibility to be an atheist". Thanks for proving my point.

I just find it odd that being religious often correlates with low IQ. I think that pretty clearly says "the more unintelligent/uneducated you are, the more likely you are to be a religious person". Therefore, increasing the intelligence levels becomes top priority. I don't think everyone should be atheist. I think that's up to each individual person to come to their own conclusion about. Clearly some people just can't accept it. They need the crutch. Like we need oxygen, they'll suffocate without it. 

Buddhism, Taoism, daoism, hinduism, yoism, new age spirituality, paganism, wicca, druidism, Jedi, native american worship,

Just a couple of "labeled" religions that don't profess to be the one true way and have no reason to criticize others for their beliefs. 

Well, like I said before, till any Buddhists, Taoists, daoists, hindus, yoists, new age spiritualists, pagans, wiccans, druidists, Jedis, or native Americans show up and express their beliefs, they're irrelevant to this discussion. 

I'm going to stand up and call people for their bullshit, especially if it affects my way of life, regardless of their belief. That isn't what tolerance is. Would you have "tolerance" for someone who punches you in the face? Apply that to this situation. 

The same could be said for the corporate greed that permeates all of American society. It's also full of shit that organized religion is responsible for every single problem. Atheism is a pretty big problem and I don't see any organized religion promoting it.

Corporate greed is a huge issue, you're right. How do these people get into these positions of such power anyway... 

People are different. The same reason some people cry at movies and others do not, the same reason some people like olives and others do not.

Great explanation...


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Fair enough. You know your life better than I do. Thanks again for sharing your story. It always interests me to find out what makes people believe.
> 
> 
> Alright, I lied, I think I'm going to respond to this.
> ...


Gotta stop you. I've known people who literally qualified as genius going to a Catholic College Prep School, in fact, despite my MANY issues against my ex mother church, I have to admit they're quality of education is normally on top. (example, St. Thomas College Prep School Houston TX) When compared against other schools in the area, ranked top. Look into catholic education.

Keep in mind that IQ and imagination are not the same thing, you can be smart as hell and have a great imagination 
With that said, I've never kept up with my IQ, I just know i test really well. Passed the St.Thomas entrance exam first time (i knew one fuck that took it 6, yes 6) I have no idea what I scored on the SAT but when my college counselor saw it she looked shock when she said the number, I asked if that was good, and she looked at me speechless for a bit, and said "Yea, thats REALLY good" In the military exam (no, wasn't in the military, failed the drug test...yes weed) got a 96, and I went in there right after I smoked like I would never smoke again...(My info on the process was grossly outdated, as most of my info came from Vietnam vets, so I smoked an oz by myself thinking I wouldn't see weed again for at least 4 yrs, STILL nailed that motherfucker, and at the time I was still considering myself Catholic.) So I have to say, I'd love to see where you got that number from, because in my personal experience religious belief or lack there of has no relation to intelligence. They're have been brilliant atheist, but I've known stupid ones to.


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## rzza (Nov 9, 2010)

studies still show that a large majority of students/proffesors at the ivey league schools are non believers.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 9, 2010)

Studies also show that some of the most successful people have been college dropouts. so how do we know your ivey leaguers are smarter? If they are, there sure as hell not doing any better than drop outs...just sayin...
That also is a small control group, you can't speak definitively quoting a single study, especially one that small...


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## karri0n (Nov 9, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> Studies also show that some of the most successful people have been college dropouts. so how do we know your ivey leaguers are smarter? If they are, there sure as hell not doing any better than drop outs...just sayin...
> That also is a small control group, you can't speak definitively quoting a single study, especially one that small...



In the interest of fairness, your one person at genius level isn't a very large study group either. Yes, however, catholic schools are far better han public schools as far as education, and they CERTAINLY produce children of better character and discipline than any public school.



Padawanbater2 said:


> I just find it odd that being religious often correlates with low IQ. I think that pretty clearly says "the more unintelligent/uneducated you are, the more likely you are to be a religious person". Therefore, increasing the intelligence levels becomes top priority. I don't think everyone should be atheist. I think that's up to each individual person to come to their own conclusion about. Clearly some people just can't accept it. They need the crutch. Like we need oxygen, they'll suffocate without it.


I'd love to see some data corroborating the claim that religion correlates to low IQ. Honestly Pad with statements like that you sound more like a bigot than a free thinking progressive person of logic and reason.

I'm not sure what you're saying as far as the wiki article on paganism, or why you have the christian perspective thing underlined. One of the large tenets of modern paganism is its lack of structure and doctrine, and there are arguments regarding the advantage and disadvantage of this. Out of the list there, "germanic polytheism" is a fairly close approximation to my family's actual practices, but my deeper spiritual beliefs such as my correlation of the essence of divinity to the energy that makes up all of reality that can be seen and quantified in modern physics, and how it is that from this we get such things as life, consciousness, gods, and spirits, are something that I am free to explore and ponder on my own. 

Listen if you have any actual questions about my beliefs I'll answer them. This is a pagan in this thread sharing their beliefs, and by your own rule, this is now relevant.


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## karri0n (Nov 9, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> Fair enough. You know your life better than I do. Thanks again for sharing your story. It always interests me to find out what makes people believe.
> 
> Well, like I said before, till any Buddhists, Taoists, daoists, hindus, yoists, new age spiritualists, pagans, wiccans, druidists, Jedis, or native Americans show up and express their beliefs, they're irrelevant to this discussion.
> 
> I'm going to stand up and call people for their bullshit, especially if it affects my way of life, regardless of their belief. That isn't what tolerance is. Would you have "tolerance" for someone who punches you in the face? Apply that to this situation.



Ok, let's step back and pretend there *isn't* a pagan who showed up and started expressing their beliefs sixteen pages ago. Why is this required? Why is someones personal religion even relevant in this? You're saying "all religions do this[particular thing that is common to christianity(a), and possibly islam(b) and judaism(c)]"

I'm saying "it's true that a, b and c do this [action], but x, y, and z, which are also valid religions, do not.

you respond with "well there are no followers of x, y, or z on this forum, so this is irrelevant!"

FACT:

There are MANY religions on this planet, hell, in this country, that:

Do not attempt to denounce or doubt science.

Don't have any lobbying power whatsoever on political issues

Don't judge others for their beliefs

don't have any affect whatsoever on you, padawanbater, personally

don't delude people into paying money to them

don't require people to adhere to strict dogma 

don't discourage questioning their beliefs or teachings

dont profess to be the "one true path"

do provide people with a sene of worth and meaning

do promote well treatment of others

do promote generosity for the sake of generosity and the rewards it brings

do provide children of broken homes or victims of parental drug addition, violence, and abuse a safe and loving outlet

do promote a sense of community among people and provide an outlet for people to find friends with those that are like minded

do promote independent thought

I'm speaking only of structured(if mildly) religion. There are also millions of people who don't identify with a particular religion but consider themselves to be spiritual, who choose to spend time with their own form of god or divinity that has meaning to them. For some people this is sitting on a hillside and looking at the sky, for some it's some combination of buddhist ideology and what they learned on their 15 minute meditation practice on their On Demand. If nothing else this provides some serenity and stress relief, but it's usually quite a bit more.


So, unless you can give me a reason these religions are harmful or somehow affect you in a negative way, then your broad generalizations and hate speech towards all religion is completely unwarranted.


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## guy incognito (Nov 10, 2010)

LOL







I'm a troll man...dododo da dododo....I'm a troll man...


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## RavenMochi (Nov 10, 2010)

karri0n said:


> In the interest of fairness, your one person at genius level isn't a very large study group either. Yes, however, catholic schools are far better han public schools as far as education, and they CERTAINLY produce children of better character and discipline than any public school.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I didn't say one person, there was no shortage of highly intelligent cocky little bastards there. And regardless, since I didn't record details (how many, there IQ, religious standing) It wouldn't make for a valid study in any sense of the word. The point is in my experience, its played no part whatsoever. Its possible that the lack of religious believes at ivy league schools is related more to a matter of their personal culture than IQ. In order to really settle this you would have to take random samples from around the country, starting with an IQ test then a religious questionnaire. Compile those results, then you'll have something alot more valid to quote.


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 10, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> I didn't say one person, there was no shortage of highly intelligent cocky little bastards there. And regardless, since I didn't record details (how many, there IQ, religious standing) It wouldn't make for a valid study in any sense of the word. The point is in my experience, its played no part whatsoever. Its possible that the lack of religious believes at ivy league schools is related more to a matter of their personal culture than IQ. In order to really settle this you would have to take random samples from around the country, starting with an IQ test then a religious questionnaire. Compile those results, then you'll have something alot more valid to quote.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence

"In 2008, intelligence researcher Helmuth Nyborg examined whether IQ relates to denomination and income, using representative data from the National Longitudinal Study of Youth, which includes intelligence tests on a representative selection of white American youth, where they have also replied to questions about religious belief. His results, published in the scientific journal _Intelligence_ demonstrated that on average, Atheists scored 1.95 IQ points higher than Agnostics, 3.82 points higher than Liberal persuasions, and 5.89 IQ points higher than Dogmatic persuasions. [4] "I'm not saying that believing in God makes you dumber. My hypothesis is that *people with a low intelligence are more easily drawn toward religions*, which give answers that are certain, while people with a high intelligence are more skeptical," says the professor.

Nyborg also co-authored a study with Richard Lynn, emeritus professor of psychology at the University of Ulster, which compared religious belief and average national IQs in 137 countries. [6] The study analysed the issue from several viewpoints. Firstly, using data from a U.S. study of 6,825 adolescents, the authors found that atheists scored 6 g-IQ points higher than those adhering to a religion.

Secondly, the authors investigated the link between religiosity and intelligence on a country level. Among the sample of 137 countries, only 23 (17%) had more than 20% of atheists, which constituted &#8220;virtually all... higher IQ countries.&#8221; The authors reported a correlation of 0.60 between atheism rates and level of intelligence, which is &#8220;highly statistically significant.&#8221; This portion of the study uses the same data set as Lynn's work _IQ and the Wealth of Nations_.
Commenting on the study in _The Daily Telegraph_, Lynn said "Why should fewer academics believe in God than the general population? I believe it is simply a matter of the IQ. Academics have higher IQs than the general population. Several Gallup poll studies of the general population have shown that those with higher IQs tend not to believe in God."


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## djruiner (Nov 10, 2010)

its easy to see why people that are more religious are less intelligent.....they spend so much time learning the bible inside and out that they don't spend time learning...umm..how should i put this....FACTS.i call it the Kelly Bundy effect...they learn so much about the bible...or whatever other fairy tale book they read...that they dont have room for knowledge for which they would be tested for in a IQ test...case in point...my sister-in-law...her mother was the psycho christian type...and you know the type im talking about...ever seen that wife swap show?the type that would publicly scream at people that they are going to hell.if my sister-in-law didnt finish her bible studies she would be beat and grounded....while the entire time she was flunking out of school...but that was ok..long as she finish her bible studies.it seems..since they start making kids learn the bible the second they can read that they want their head filled with that knowledge...and real knowledge gets pushed to the side.after my ex was dragging me to church with her...i took my 4 yr old daughter with us one time...they pulled her and all the other kids out to the bible school thing...she didnt want to go by herself..so i went with her....but the teacher was VERY opposed to me going with them...after sitting in the back of the room..hearing the shit they was feeding these kids...i took her and walked out...never letting her go back.i saw first hand how this church was trying brainwash their kids.im not saying that happens in every church...but would it surprise me if it was...not at all.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 10, 2010)

djruiner said:


> its easy to see why people that are more religious are less intelligent.....they spend so much time learning the bible inside and out that they don't spend time learning...umm..how should i put this....FACTS.i call it the Kelly Bundy effect...they learn so much about the bible...or whatever other fairy tale book they read...that they dont have room for knowledge for which they would be tested for in a IQ test...case in point...my sister-in-law...her mother was the psycho christian type...and you know the type im talking about...ever seen that wife swap show?the type that would publicly scream at people that they are going to hell.if my sister-in-law didnt finish her bible studies she would be beat and grounded....while the entire time she was flunking out of school...but that was ok..long as she finish her bible studies.it seems..since they start making kids learn the bible the second they can read that they want their head filled with that knowledge...and real knowledge gets pushed to the side.after my ex was dragging me to church with her...i took my 4 yr old daughter with us one time...they pulled her and all the other kids out to the bible school thing...she didnt want to go by herself..so i went with her....but the teacher was VERY opposed to me going with them...after sitting in the back of the room..hearing the shit they was feeding these kids...i took her and walked out...never letting her go back.i saw first hand how this church was trying brainwash their kids.im not saying that happens in every church...but would it surprise me if it was...not at all.


Thats... a really good point. The study also did mention that the "dogmatic" were the least intelligent, ie psycho-christian types...And I will have to grant, while I knew no shortage of intelligent people with religion, none of them were the obsessive type. Making me wonder how much there religion was real, and how much just preprogrammed. Example, I was raised catholic, but the older I got the harder I found to stomach the bullshit being fed to me. It got to the point that when people asked what religion I was I would say "catholic" but honestly, I didn't agree with what they taught, I stopped showing up, so what part of me was indeed still catholic? it was more like a programmed response then an honest answer...


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## rzza (Nov 10, 2010)

kelly bundy gave me many wet mornings


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## mindphuk (Nov 10, 2010)

djruiner said:


> its easy to see why people that are more religious are less intelligent.....they spend so much time learning the bible inside and out that they don't spend time learning...umm..how should i put this....FACTS.i call it the Kelly Bundy effect...they learn so much about the bible...or whatever other fairy tale book they read...that they dont have room for knowledge for which they would be tested for in a IQ test...case in point...my sister-in-law...her mother was the psycho christian type...and you know the type im talking about...ever seen that wife swap show?the type that would publicly scream at people that they are going to hell.if my sister-in-law didnt finish her bible studies she would be beat and grounded....while the entire time she was flunking out of school...but that was ok..long as she finish her bible studies.it seems..since they start making kids learn the bible the second they can read that they want their head filled with that knowledge...and real knowledge gets pushed to the side.after my ex was dragging me to church with her...i took my 4 yr old daughter with us one time...they pulled her and all the other kids out to the bible school thing...she didnt want to go by herself..so i went with her....but the teacher was VERY opposed to me going with them...after sitting in the back of the room..hearing the shit they was feeding these kids...i took her and walked out...never letting her go back.i saw first hand how this church was trying brainwash their kids.im not saying that happens in every church...but would it surprise me if it was...not at all.


There is one problem with your hypothesis. IQ does not measure knowledge, it is _supposed _to be a direct measure of intelligence regardless of learned information. That said, IQ tests have been attacked for being bias for a very long time. That being said, there are many studies that use academic achievement as a marker of intelligence and in that situation, you would be correct. 

Here's some more on the correlation between intelligence and religion http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence%20&%20religion.htm


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## RavenMochi (Nov 10, 2010)

is it just me, or has this thread degenerated to bashing religion?


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## djruiner (Nov 10, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> There is one problem with your hypothesis. IQ does not measure knowledge, it is _supposed _to be a direct measure of intelligence regardless of learned information. That said, IQ tests have been attacked for being bias for a very long time.
> 
> Here's some more on the correlation between intelligence and religion http://kspark.kaist.ac.kr/Jesus/Intelligence & religion.htm


thats true..but take out the IQ test part...the same point is being made.but if you take 2 people...1 that went to school..1 that didnt...in almost every case the one that attended school will test higher.the brain grows and functions more with the more knowledge thats obtained...so learned information would make you test higher.


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## crackerboy (Nov 10, 2010)

djruiner said:


> its easy to see why people that are more religious are less intelligent.....they spend so much time learning the bible inside and out that they don't spend time learning...umm..how should i put this....FACTS.i call it the Kelly Bundy effect...they learn so much about the bible...or whatever other fairy tale book they read...that they dont have room for knowledge for which they would be tested for in a IQ test...case in point...my sister-in-law...her mother was the psycho christian type...and you know the type im talking about...ever seen that wife swap show?the type that would publicly scream at people that they are going to hell.if my sister-in-law didnt finish her bible studies she would be beat and grounded....while the entire time she was flunking out of school...but that was ok..long as she finish her bible studies.it seems..since they start making kids learn the bible the second they can read that they want their head filled with that knowledge...and real knowledge gets pushed to the side.after my ex was dragging me to church with her...i took my 4 yr old daughter with us one time...they pulled her and all the other kids out to the bible school thing...she didnt want to go by herself..so i went with her....but the teacher was VERY opposed to me going with them...after sitting in the back of the room..hearing the shit they was feeding these kids...i took her and walked out...never letting her go back.i saw first hand how this church was trying brainwash their kids.im not saying that happens in every church...but would it surprise me if it was...not at all.



Why is it that some of the best schools in this country are Christian schools? Look up Masters Collage and see where they rank in the state for academics. I work with a whole team of electrical and mechanical engineers and 2/3 of us are religious in one way or the other. As a matter of fact, one of our mechanical engineers is a triple major. He got his bachelors in mechanical Engineering. Then got his masters in civil engineering and went on to finish his PHD with a math major. He is now almost complete with a degree in Christian theology. I would love to see you have this conversation with him. I don't think you would leave the conversation with that same attitude.


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## guy incognito (Nov 10, 2010)




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## RavenMochi (Nov 10, 2010)

guy incognito said:


>


&#8224;claps&#8224;


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## djruiner (Nov 10, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Why is it that some of the best schools in this country are Christian schools? Look up Masters Collage and see where they rank in the state for academics. I work with a whole team of electrical and mechanical engineers and 2/3 of us are religious in one way or the other. As a matter of fact, one of our mechanical engineers is a triple major. He got his bachelors in mechanical Engineering. Then got his masters in civil engineering and went on to finish his PHD with a math major. He is now almost complete with a degree in Christian theology. I would love to see you have this conversation with him. I don't think you would leave the conversation with that same attitude.


well...first flaw with that is putting anything up against public school...the nation as a whole is dumbing down every year.and if your basing all that on 1 school and the 1 person you speak of...your proving nothing.and id sit down and talk with the guy...just like the preacher i talked to in a park one day...that the very next day...renounced his faith.its been a proven fact that the less intelligent tend to be more religious....not saying that all are feeble minded...but as proven in some cases they are.just like in public school...some winners...a whole lot of losers...and same will hold true in any christian school.also need to keep in mind that genetics play into all of this.if you have 2 parents that before going out into the town are required to wear helmets...good chance your not gonna be president of a major company one day.you act like we are personally attacking you,your faith,and your intelligence...which isnt the case...well it isnt for me.


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## mindphuk (Nov 10, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> Why is it that some of the best schools in this country are Christian schools? Look up Masters Collage and see where they rank in the state for academics. I work with a whole team of electrical and mechanical engineers and 2/3 of us are religious in one way or the other. As a matter of fact, one of our mechanical engineers is a triple major. He got his bachelors in mechanical Engineering. Then got his masters in civil engineering and went on to finish his PHD with a math major. He is now almost complete with a degree in Christian theology. I would love to see you have this conversation with him. I don't think you would leave the conversation with that same attitude.


Well, they do teach basic sciences like cellular biology and there's not many ways to avoid teaching evolution and common ancestry. It doesn't appear that their coursework denies reality so a really well-run school will attract the best and brightest Christians but no one is saying there aren't intelligent Christians, just that there is a negative correlation between the two. Pointing out stupid atheists would be a far bigger challenge IMO then the other way around, even taking into account the per capita discrepancy.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 10, 2010)

djruiner said:


> well...first flaw with that is putting anything up against public school...the nation as a whole is dumbing down every year.and if your basing all that on 1 school and the 1 person you speak of...your proving nothing.and id sit down and talk with the guy...just like the preacher i talked to in a park one day...that the very next day...renounced his faith.its been a proven fact that the less intelligent tend to be more religious....not saying that all are feeble minded...but as proven in some cases they are.just like in public school...some winners...a whole lot of losers...and same will hold true in any christian school.also need to keep in mind that genetics play into all of this.if you have 2 parents that before going out into the town are required to wear helmets...good chance your not gonna be president of a major company one day.you act like we are personally attacking you,your faith,and your intelligence...which isnt the case...well it isnt for me.


 It isn't for you, in all fairness you've been pretty unbiased. However we both know that is not the case for everyone here.


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## crackerboy (Nov 10, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Well, they do teach basic sciences like cellular biology and there's not many ways to avoid teaching evolution and common ancestry. It doesn't appear that their coursework denies reality so a really well-run school will attract the best and brightest Christians but no one is saying there aren't intelligent Christians, just that there is a negative correlation between the two. Pointing out stupid atheists would be a far bigger challenge IMO then the other way around, even taking into account the per capita discrepancy.



To your point, I have seen many Christians just flat out refuse to even try to understand anything that they feel contradicts the Bible. That to me just does not make any sense. There is also a large portion of the Christian population that will only home school their children. Which in my opinion limits them two the knowledge of the parent that is teaching them. One of the biggest thing I enjoyed about collage is getting all the different points of views that came with the life experiences of the professors. Although not all public schools are a great place to send your children, it does help with a child's ability to relate to their peers. I won't try to refute the statistics but would suggest that there are social issue's that drive that number. My point is that religion itself does not limit ones ability to learn other subjects. Just that they have been taught to be biased against certain subjects. I personally believe that whether or not you agree with something is no reason not to try to understand it.


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## crackerboy (Nov 10, 2010)

djruiner said:


> well...first flaw with that is putting anything up against public school...the nation as a whole is dumbing down every year.and if your basing all that on 1 school and the 1 person you speak of...your proving nothing.and id sit down and talk with the guy...just like the preacher i talked to in a park one day...that the very next day...renounced his faith.its been a proven fact that the less intelligent tend to be more religious....not saying that all are feeble minded...but as proven in some cases they are.just like in public school...some winners...a whole lot of losers...and same will hold true in any christian school.also need to keep in mind that genetics play into all of this.if you have 2 parents that before going out into the town are required to wear helmets...good chance your not gonna be president of a major company one day.you act like we are personally attacking you,your faith,and your intelligence...which isnt the case...well it isnt for me.


I don't think that you are attaching me. I just think that there are a lot of misconceptions and generalizations going on in this thread. And yes I grew up in the south, so I have seen my fair share of toothless fanatics that still think that the KKK will be a viable political party some day. So yeah they tend to drive down that IQ level a bit. LOL


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## mindphuk (Nov 11, 2010)

crackerboy said:


> To your point, I have seen many Christians just flat out refuse to even try to understand anything that they feel contradicts the Bible. That to me just does not make any sense. There is also a large portion of the Christian population that will only home school their children. Which in my opinion limits them two the knowledge of the parent that is teaching them. One of the biggest thing I enjoyed about collage is getting all the different points of views that came with the life experiences of the professors. Although not all public schools are a great place to send your children, it does help with a child's ability to relate to their peers. I won't try to refute the statistics but would suggest that there are social issue's that drive that number. My point is that religion itself does not limit ones ability to learn other subjects. Just that they have been taught to be biased against certain subjects. I personally believe that whether or not you agree with something is no reason not to try to understand it.


Good post my friend! It's not only refusing to try to understand but actively trying to discredit what they don't yet fully understand. 90% of the religious arguments against evolution are strawman arguments. They have to change what evolutionary theory actually says in order to make their points valid.


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Good post my friend! It's not only refusing to try to understand but actively trying to discredit what they don't yet fully understand. 90% of the religious arguments against evolution are strawman arguments. They have to change what evolutionary theory actually says in order to make their points valid.


"They" don't have to prove or disprove any "theory" to be validated.....that's the part you never acknowledge, not even for a fleeting moment.

I know I've had to have posted this probably a hundred times or more...but God just isn't an _argument_.

Mindphuk, your goal is to break apart, piece by piece, the understanding of God via the Christian, in an attempt to make them appear the opaque imbecile _you deem them to be._

Save the usual insult.....ridiculous waste of time. Life's too short. You, as an atheist, should know this better than I.
+++It doesn't touch me at all+++
*In all sincerity, I truly do hope your heart and soul is touched one day by the power of God. *

[video=youtube;GA_Cz3jWT3c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GA_Cz3jWT3c[/video]


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## mindphuk (Nov 11, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> "They" don't have to prove or disprove any "theory" to be validated.....that's the part you never acknowledge, not even for a fleeting moment.
> 
> I know I've had to have posted this probably a hundred times or more...but God just isn't an _argument_.
> 
> ...


 Once again you completely miss the point. Of course I'm referring to the ones that DO attempt to disprove science in order to validate their beliefs. I was posting a response to crackerboy about the 'many Christians just flat out refuse to even try to understand anything that they feel contradicts the Bible.' In case you have a reading comprehension problem, I specifically was referring to the religious arguments against evolution. not about god or religion in general. That was your inference. 

Only you would attempt to extend my point to include all believers/Christians. My goal is and always has been to defend science from ignorant and baseless attacks. Trying to paint me as trying to break apart the understanding of god is disingenuous and an obvious attempt to insult or attack my character, something you are accusing me of doing. So take your baseless accusations elsewhere.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 11, 2010)

I'm starting to get the impression I'm not the only one dry right now.....&#8224;LOL&#8224; 
Religion and politics are the best way to start any fight I suppose.
In all seriousness, they're has been an extended attempt in this thread to paint Christians as complete idiots, when realistically I think we all know that stupidity simply runs rampant in this world, regardless of race or creed.


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Once again you completely miss the point. Of course I'm referring to the ones that DO attempt to disprove science in order to validate their beliefs. I was posting a response to crackerboy about the 'many Christians just flat out refuse to even try to understand anything that they feel contradicts the Bible.' In case you have a reading comprehension problem, I specifically was referring to the religious arguments against evolution. not about god or religion in general. That was your inference.
> 
> Only you would attempt to extend my point to include all believers/Christians. My goal is and always has been to defend science from ignorant and baseless attacks. Trying to paint me as trying to break apart the understanding of god is disingenuous and an obvious attempt to insult or attack my character, something you are accusing me of doing. So take your baseless accusations elsewhere.


"Only I' would "accuse" *you *of "baseless" accusations?
You do what you do Mindphuk.......one only need to read any of your numerous posts to figure it out.

I will "defend" myself, and my beliefs, WITH REASON, purpose and nature---no more.

There was not a single "disingenuous" intent on my part. My TRUE intent is that you are ONE DAY, sooner--rather than later, be touched by the GRACE of God.


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## mindphuk (Nov 11, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> "Only I' would "accuse" *you *of "baseless" accusations?
> You do what you do Mindphuk.......one only need to read any of your numerous posts to figure it out.
> 
> I will "defend" myself, and my beliefs, WITH REASON, purpose and nature---no more.
> ...


What was it about my post that angered you so much? I was in agreement with Crackerboy, something that hasn't happened for pages, and you chose that time to jump in with your attack? What exactly was it about any of my posts that make you think I want to break up understanding of god? Whatever that means. I have stated my goals and that is to point out when people are dismissing critical thinking and replacing it with dogma. You always come across as very angry towards atheists. What happened to make you hate people that don't accept your beliefs?

You may not have understood how you were being disingenuous, but when you attempt to make a caricature of my actual position and attack that rather than my actual stance on things, that sort of falls in that realm.


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

One quick addendum Mindphuk...your words here verbatim:
* My goal is and always has been to defend science from ignorant and baseless attacks. *

If man's "science" were truly so much more worthy than your notion of God, the world would indeed be without purpose.

You have no idea what you trust. I have been diagnosed with an assortment of disease, only to be "informed" by doctor after doctor that "just because I have these lists of terroristic 'diseases'........."does not mean there isn't "something else" wrong in addition to "their facts." I was the EPITOME OF HEALTH only a few short years ago mind you......until of course I relied on man's scientific notion for healing/medication......and no, I am not referring to only partaking of the medicinal qualities of MJ.

*THAT SCIENTIFIC NOTION WAS KILLING ME!!!!*

When I said God was BIGGER than "science"........that wasn't a mumbo jumbo Christian rant. Proof is in the pudding, and I AM that living proof. My being able to throw out "with proof" a mere "I told you so" will serve as no credit towards my being.

It's SCIENCE that has been KILLING ME.

It is GOD ALMIGHTLY bringing me from the depths of hell.

.....The End


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## djruiner (Nov 11, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> One quick addendum Mindphuk...your words here verbatim:
> * My goal is and always has been to defend science from ignorant and baseless attacks. *
> 
> If man's "science" were truly so much more worthy than your notion of God, the world would indeed be without purpose.
> ...


 see...right there is what he is talking about....god made you better huh?end of story....so you think that god has what cured you...say if you had died...what then...it wouldnt be god letting you down..it would be the doctors...but when you live...god saves you...once again god is only being used when good things happen.and anyone saying otherwise..you ignore.you are not proof of anything...proof that doctors dont know shit maybe yes...but not proof there is a god.if the proof is in that pudding...then that pudding was spiked with vodka.once again religion having issues with science...dont you hate how facts stand in the way of things?


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> What was it about my post that angered you so much? I was in agreement with Crackerboy, something that hasn't happened for pages, and you chose that time to jump in with your attack? What exactly was it about any of my posts that make you think I want to break up understanding of god? Whatever that means. I have stated my goals and that is to point out when people are dismissing critical thinking and replacing it with dogma. You always come across as very angry towards atheists. What happened to make you hate people that don't accept your beliefs?
> 
> You may not have understood how you were being disingenuous, but when you attempt to make a caricature of my actual position and attack that rather than my actual stance on things, that sort of falls in that realm.


Boy oh boy....I'm angry at atheists? The ONLY threads I've stumbled upon with you are on threads of a Religous/Spiritual nature.......and numerous at that on RIU alone, yikes.

I will confess I for a time frequented the "atheist thread"........but SOLELY because I was being nosey and found I was being gossiped about, LOL!!!......AND after having been "attacked" for my wholehearted beliefs in something you are just too stuborn to attempt to comprehend. ::EACE:::


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

djruiner said:


> see...right there is what he is talking about....god made you better huh?end of story....so you think that god has what cured you...say if you had died...what then...it wouldnt be god letting you down..it would be the doctors...but when you live...god saves you...once again god is only being used when good things happen.and anyone saying otherwise..you ignore.you are not proof of anything...proof that doctors dont know shit maybe yes...but not proof there is a god.if the proof is in that pudding...then that pudding was spiked with vodka.once again religion having issues with science...dont you hate how facts stand in the way of things?


Wow......I'm ending this with just a brief overview of what you have stated. No, it's not a simple assessment of God just cured me. I opened my eyes to His instruction, one of which was to STOP TAKING THE EVIL MEDICATIONS. I am getting BETTER BY THE DAY!!!

I really don't "dig" animosity, do you?


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

*AND YOU'RE RIGHT..........DOCTOR'S DON'T KNOW SHIT, LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!*
*They know very little.....let me rephrase. *


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## djruiner (Nov 11, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> Wow......I'm ending this with just a brief overview of what you have stated. No, it's not a simple assessment of God just cured me. I opened my eyes to His instruction, one of which was to STOP TAKING THE EVIL MEDICATIONS. I am getting BETTER BY THE DAY!!!
> 
> I really don't "dig" animosity, do you?


god told you to stop taking the meds...hmmm..strange..i didnt know he still talked to people...i guess just you...and..ummm..well he has been quite for a good time now...unless the crazy people talking to god on a two way radio are for real and not just crazy.or is he sending you text messages...i wonder what service gets a signal in heaven?do you think that MAYBE by chance..you got a stroke of luck?since we all know god didnt speak to you...maybe just your own human willpower helped you to overcome?and like i said...what if you didnt get better...then who's at fault?cause unlike you..some dont get better..yet worship your same god.people that are believers will always say its god that did it...why..there is no power stronger then god right?and it also seems in their nature to mention god every 35 seconds...like you get some door prize at the gates of heaven for praising god more then others.so ofcourse god made you better..not you..not human nature...god did it.just hope that your door prize isn't what he gave his own son.


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

I take the fact that you responded with such a "stance"...you do. Lata.....and BTW, I'm SO not falling for your meeting a pastor and turning him towards atheism after a mere conversation with you.


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## djruiner (Nov 11, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> I take the fact that you responded with such a "stance"...you do. Lata.....and BTW, I'm SO not falling for your meeting a pastor and turning him towards atheism after a mere conversation with you.


personally....i SO don't care what you fall for....and who said i turned him atheist?why is it that anyone that don't worship gets that label?does everything need a tag?then your basically making it a religion itself...maybe not organised..but still.more and more people are waking up...some just cant give up that hope that someone is looking out for you...and one thing you said was right...without god the world would have no purpose...but its not the world..just the followers.they wouldn't have their crutch there holding them up.but look around..is someone really looking out for the people of this planet?...ask those in haiti..ask those in indonesia...where was god for them?most religions are still around out of the fear of the people living their life how they want..and possibly running rampant.without that sense of direction...and control...they might just think on their own...and they cant have that...which is why they try so hard to get people to join them...if the religion falls...things might not work out so well for them..people are too scared to think that someone isnt looking out for them...afraid they are on their own...if you look around..and its not hard to see...we are on our own here


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

djruiner said:


> *personally....i SO don't care what you fall for*....and who said i turned him atheist?why is it that anyone that don't worship gets that label?does everything need a tag?then your basically making it a religion itself...maybe not organised..but still.more and more people are waking up...some just cant give up that hope that someone is looking out for you...and one thing you said was right...without god the world would have no purpose...but its not the world..just the followers.they wouldn't have their crutch there holding them up.but look around..is someone really looking out for the people of this planet?...ask those in haiti..ask those in indonesia...where was god for them?most religions are still around out of the fear of the people living their life how they want..and possibly running rampant.without that sense of direction...and control...they might just think on their own...and they cant have that...which is why they try so hard to get people to join them...if the religion falls...things might not work out so well for them..people are too scared to think that someone isnt looking out for them...afraid they are on their own...if you look around..and its not hard to see...we are on our own here


Really now? Note the title of the thread.
Science CAN NOT explain what has and is happening to me.....FACT.
Good Night.


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## djruiner (Nov 11, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> Really now? Note the title of the thread.
> Science CAN NOT explain what has and is happening to me.....FACT.
> Good Night.


good night?...maybe i should try and run after each comment i make...my whole point was...just because you got better...does not prove science is wrong and listening to a soundless voice made you better.its like your saying since you got better..there has to be a god.*waves retardly*


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## Babs34 (Nov 11, 2010)

djruiner said:


> good night?...maybe i should try and run after each comment i make...my whole point was...just because you got better...does not prove science is wrong and listening to a soundless voice made you better.its like your saying since you got better..there has to be a god.*waves retardly*[/QUOTE]
> 
> Pleae don't insult retarded children.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 11, 2010)

If I said, "Can't we all just get along?" Would I get jumped? ``


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## djruiner (Nov 11, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> djruiner said:
> 
> 
> > good night?...maybe i should try and run after each comment i make...my whole point was...just because you got better...does not prove science is wrong and listening to a soundless voice made you better.its like your saying since you got better..there has to be a god.*waves retardly*[/
> ...


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## djruiner (Nov 11, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> If I said, "Can't we all just get along?" Would I get jumped? ``


i thought it was..."why cant we all just get a bong"?


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## RavenMochi (Nov 11, 2010)

djruiner said:


> i thought it was..."why cant we all just get a bong"?


That works to... 
The point is at this point this conversation has disintegrated to the point where nothing good nor useful can come of it. None at all. This will not end well, thats just not in the options.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 11, 2010)

So how 'bout them *insert your local team that plays anything you could possibly give a shit about*?


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## mindphuk (Nov 12, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> One quick addendum Mindphuk...your words here verbatim:
> * My goal is and always has been to defend science from ignorant and baseless attacks. *
> 
> If man's "science" were truly so much more worthy than your notion of God, the world would indeed be without purpose.
> ...


Why does it have to be an either/or proposition with you people? I say I defend science, mostly because that is what I'm trained in. I claimed to defend science against ignorance and never once implied because I believe it is superior to god. First of all, I will point out that medicine is not hard science in every case. Doctors make mistakes, but that does not invalidate germ theory. Not all western medicine works great and how we expect it, but it is often much better than the alternative, relying on a deity. Although the underlying principles of medicine are based on biology, the practice of medicine is not always as evidence-based as the hard sciences like physics and chemistry. Why do people live so much longer now? They were arguably more religious, shouldn't god have kept them alive? I can't say anything about your particular situation but there can be many rational, non-spiritual explanations with misdiagnosis being at the top of the list but a supernatural being that alters physical reality to help us is way down on my list of probable explanations for things in this world. I cannot disprove a god anymore than you can prove one. 
In spite of what Babs claims, I never once claimed to disprove god and I challenge anyone here to find a quote where I said any such thing. I will attempt to challenge believers with skeptical thinking but more often than not, believers will criticize rational, logical thought as if it's a bad thing. Unfortunately, many people find that applying logic to their favored holy texts will invalidate much of what is said there. Many religious people can deal with it. Most people are able to look at many of the stories as allegorical. The truth is the majority of things claimed to be attributed to a god historically as well as currently, usually will have other more naturalistic explanations but believers will rationalize those away for various reasons, usually, the feeling of the presence of something. The thing is, a skeptical naturalist like me will always be critical of sloppy thinking and will speak up whether about religion or pseudoscience or nutty conspiracy theories. I don't hold religion to any different standard than any other unexplainable phenomenon. Science is and always has been about finding answers. Attributing things to a supernatural, unexplainable entity creates more questions than it answers. I'm okay saying I don't know/ we don't understand. 
I'm glad you are better, that's the most important thing.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 12, 2010)

mindphuk said:


> Why does it have to be an either/or proposition with you people? I say I defend science, mostly because that is what I'm trained in. I claimed to defend science against ignorance and never once implied because I believe it is superior to god. First of all, I will point out that medicine is not hard science in every case. Doctors make mistakes, but that does not invalidate germ theory. Not all western medicine works great and how we expect it, but it is often much better than the alternative, relying on a deity. Although the underlying principles of medicine are based on biology, the practice of medicine is not always as evidence-based as the hard sciences like physics and chemistry. Why do people live so much longer now? They were arguably more religious, shouldn't god have kept them alive? I can't say anything about your particular situation but there can be many rational, non-spiritual explanations with misdiagnosis being at the top of the list but a supernatural being that alters physical reality to help us is way down on my list of probable explanations for things in this world. I cannot disprove a god anymore than you can prove one.
> In spite of what Babs claims, I never once claimed to disprove god and I challenge anyone here to find a quote where I said any such thing. I will attempt to challenge believers with skeptical thinking but more often than not, believers will criticize rational, logical thought as if it's a bad thing. Unfortunately, many people find that applying logic to their favored holy texts will invalidate much of what is said there. Many religious people can deal with it. Most people are able to look at many of the stories as allegorical. The truth is the majority of things claimed to be attributed to a god historically as well as currently, usually will have other more naturalistic explanations but believers will rationalize those away for various reasons, usually, the feeling of the presence of something. The thing is, a skeptical naturalist like me will always be critical of sloppy thinking and will speak up whether about religion or pseudoscience or nutty conspiracy theories. I don't hold religion to any different standard than any other unexplainable phenomenon. Science is and always has been about finding answers. Attributing things to a supernatural, unexplainable entity creates more questions than it answers. I'm okay saying I don't know/ we don't understand.
> I'm glad you are better, that's the most important thing.


 sighs just had to have the last word, didn't you...
First off 'defend science'.  really? We'll be sure to give you a medal later, without your valiant efforts, science would have been killed, and we would be thrown back into the stone age. Our computers would have ceased to work, lights would have burst, and mobs would have roamed the country side looking for the witch that caused this latest recession...You have single handedly saved science and the world as we know it. Thank you. 
Call me crazy, but had you never been born I don't think we would have fallen back to the dark ages. 

Likewise, I think Babs will be okay. She doesn't need you to "rescue" her from her unscientifical explanations. How dare anyone try to explaing something without science, despite the fact that last I heard a bee breaks the laws of physics. The problem with always looking for a scientific answer is science is currently inadequate to explain many phenomenon. Not that one day it wont, I don't know, but its at a fail right now. Lets face it, at our current scientific level we are having serious issues just describing the human brain, individuality, etc. I'm all about critical rational thought, I want to understand everything. If there is indeed a God, I would love love to understand the very substance he is embodied in. If they're are indeed ghost, and some can materialize, I want to know what it is that constitutes that form. But right now, and most likely in my lifetime, we aren't they're yet. (I'd settle for just complete understanding of the brain, what happens when we can make prostethic ones, what is individuality, etc ad naseum)

Babs, I understand what your saying, but don't completely knock scientific notions, your using one right now. 

Now, come on...group hug....


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 12, 2010)

djruiner said:


> good night?...maybe i should try and run after each comment i make...my whole point was...just because you got better...does not prove science is wrong and listening to a soundless voice made you better.its like your saying since you got better..there has to be a god.*waves retardly*


 
dj, you shouldn't even get started on that point. I tried making the same point with Babs in the atheist thread months ago when she brought up the same thing.

Using her _logic_, one could dismiss anything science has ever accomplished because a handful of doctors _failed_ (though here you are, with some self proclaimed debilitating disease and yet you're healthy enough to argue on RIU with atheists..) with treating her disease to her content. 

It doesn't take a genius to see the obvious flaws in that train of thought..


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## Padawanbater2 (Nov 12, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> despite the fact that last I heard a bee breaks the laws of physics. The problem with always looking for a scientific answer is science is currently inadequate to explain many phenomenon. Not that one day it wont, I don't know, but its at a fail right now.


Bees don't break the laws of physics.

Science is the *best tool humanity has available*. It was *designed* to have a fail safe, so that wrong science doesn't move forward as collected knowledge. We have built upon it since the 1600s and it's only getting better. 

You know what's got a pretty shitty track record for provable claims?... Religious claims. 

Science > Religion


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## djruiner (Nov 12, 2010)

Padawanbater2 said:


> dj, you shouldn't even get started on that point. I tried making the same point with Babs in the atheist thread months ago when she brought up the same thing.
> 
> Using her _logic_, one could dismiss anything science has ever accomplished because a handful of doctors _failed_ (though here you are, with some self proclaimed debilitating disease and yet you're healthy enough to argue on RIU with atheists..) with treating her disease to her content.
> 
> It doesn't take a genius to see the obvious flaws in that train of thought..


ive noticed something....why is it people seem to "find god" right after something tragic happens...some bad disease...went to prison....near death experience...was assraped by a dolphin...seems like most people stumble into religion only after negative shit happens....why is that?i cant think of anyone that while sitting and eating corn flakes...just stand up and start screaming "i have seen the light!!"not too many just "find" god....so again...why is it people only seem to find god after negative shit happens.you have 2 types of religious people...ones that was brought up in a religious family and was forced to attend..or the ones that had something really bad happen to make them believe......maybe inside all that is the real truth


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## RavenMochi (Nov 12, 2010)

congratulations, you are the stars of humanity. Lets use logic for a minute, as we are all fond of it. What is it your trying to achieve. Don't misunderstand me, I get your point, I've been to a county jail before, I've seen what your talking about. But what is it your looking for? For her to all of a sudden be like "oh, shit, you know, your right, god is a scam?" I think the phrase that fits this is "intellectual masturbation." If I'm wrong, please tell me how. 
And don't act like your doing this for the sake of science, all three of us could fall of the earth now, and advancements will continue. As such, I can't help but think that the only purpose your actions serve at this point is to stroke your ego. If there really is a point, please, what is it again?

I can't help but notice that her sense of religion seems to actually _anger_ you. Why is that?


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## djruiner (Nov 12, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> congratulations, you are the stars of humanity. Lets use logic for a minute, as we are all fond of it. What is it your trying to achieve. Don't misunderstand me, I get your point, I've been to a county jail before, I've seen what your talking about. But what is it your looking for? For her to all of a sudden be like "oh, shit, you know, your right, god is a scam?" I think the phrase that fits this is "intellectual masturbation." If I'm wrong, please tell me how.
> And don't act like your doing this for the sake of science, all three of us could fall of the earth now, and advancements will continue. As such, I can't help but think that the only purpose your actions serve at this point is to stroke your ego. If there really is a point, please, what is it again?
> 
> I can't help but notice that her sense of religion seems to actually _anger_ you. Why is that?


i think i made my point with my statement...and by me pointing things out..that makes me stroking my ego?....it seems no matter the topic..you seem to pop in with your 2 cents...whether or not you agree or disagree with what the person says....who is trying to stroke their ego here?and just incase i didnt spell it out right....my point/question was...why do people only find god after negative shit happens....am i looking for her to renounce her faith...not at all..people can run with whatever superstition they want...but when someone says i got better because of god..end of story...i think i have the right to disagree with her...what part of my statement did you disagree with....none that i saw in your response...so your rebuttal was pointless...you even started by saying you get my point and have seen it first hand...so what is it...do you have a hard on for her?seems like your just defending her to make yourself look good to me


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## RavenMochi (Nov 12, 2010)

&#8224;s&#8224; So angry still, why?
1) don't really know babs, let alone have a clue of what she looks like, nor do I care.
2) I didn't disagree with you. I was playing Switzerland and failing miserably...
in fact, come to think of it, I havn't taken a side. 
Thought about getting laid? smoking a joint? so uptight. You realize this is the internet right? Why are you getting so worked up? c a l m d o w n....breathe.......its okay.... 
hard on...for someone probably thousands of miles away I've never seen. Is this a common occurrence for you? 'cause it sounds like its a good way to get blue balls to me...just sayin...
Going for personal attacks now? How pathetic. So much for reason...


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## djruiner (Nov 12, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> &#8224;s&#8224; So angry still, why?


where are you detecting anger from?im buzzed...watching tv..laughing my ass off while typing all this.if your getting anger from that...thats you...i guess its the "getting the last word" thing you spoke of of someone else earlier...since you still cant rebuttal my last two comments


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## RavenMochi (Nov 12, 2010)

djruiner said:


> where are you detecting anger from?im buzzed...watching tv..laughing my ass off while typing all this.if your getting anger from that...thats you...i guess its the "getting the last word" thing you spoke of of someone else earlier...since you still cant rebuttal my last two comments


How quickly you forget I defended you earlier in the thread. Again, I was playing switzerland....why am I going to rebuttal you? Is there a reason I'm supposed to care? But tell you what, go ahead and respond to this and get your precious last words, I'll leave this thread and the imaginary prize you so desperately long for to you...


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## djruiner (Nov 12, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> How quickly you forget I defended you earlier in the thread. Again, I was playing switzerland....why am I going to rebuttal you? Is there a reason I'm supposed to care? But tell you what, go ahead and respond to this and get your precious last words, I'll leave this thread and the imaginary prize you so desperately long for to you...


what you dont get is...you ARE trying to rebuttal me...just poorly...and it seems you do care...or you would not have chimed in in the first place...and if i dont respond...ie "get my precious last words" then the thread kinda dies...and unless im wrong the purpose of these is to continue a discussion..or am i wrong there?
also..i need no one to defend me...i say what i mean and what i feel without any censorship.you can back up my points...but i dont need anyone defending me...freedom of speech...its a bitch isnt it?


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## djruiner (Nov 12, 2010)

RavenMochi said:


> &#8224;s&#8224; So angry still, why?
> 1) don't really know babs, let alone have a clue of what she looks like, nor do I care.
> 2) I didn't disagree with you. I was playing Switzerland and failing miserably...
> in fact, come to think of it, I havn't taken a side.
> ...


since it also took you a few minutes to edit and redo this post...thought id finish it for ya...personal attacks.....and i quote


> I think the phrase that fits this is "intellectual masturbation." If I'm wrong, please tell me how.
> And don't act like your doing this for the sake of science, all three of us could fall of the earth now, and advancements will continue. As such, I can't help but think that the only purpose your actions serve at this point is to stroke your ego. If there really is a point, please, what is it again?


yet im the one coming with personal attacks.your input was only given to try and under mind the points i made...since you could not come up with an argument against what i said....so speaking of the internet cat fights...not to sound like a 3rd grader but..."you started it"


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## guy incognito (Nov 12, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> Really now? Note the title of the thread.
> Science CAN NOT explain what has and is happening to me.....FACT.
> Good Night.


Clearly god is the only rational answer then.


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## Babs34 (Nov 12, 2010)

guy incognito said:


> Clearly god is the only rational answer then.


He's made no mistakes. It's crystal clear.


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## rzza (Nov 12, 2010)

neither has tooth fairy. he/she makes it to my kids pillow every time.


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## Babs34 (Nov 12, 2010)

rzza said:


> neither has tooth fairy. he/she makes it to my kids pillow every time.


..not quite sure what you mean by "neither has tooth fairy"..my son is still hitting me up for money due him since he could speak and had "heard" of the tooth fairy. He knew the deal.

Sorry man, I can't relate. I don't believe in fairy tales, but I do believe in miracles.


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## rzza (Nov 12, 2010)

Babs34 said:


> He's made no mistakes. It's crystal clear.


neither has THE tooth fairy. 

do you understand now?

and why dont you pay your kid for his fallen teeth?


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## guy incognito (Nov 12, 2010)




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## rzza (Nov 12, 2010)

hehe too funny guy


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## karri0n (Nov 15, 2010)

Raven,

Actually they figured out the bumble bee thing. The "problem" was based on an incorrect model of the motion of the wings.


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