# God and Free Will.



## Carthoris (Apr 1, 2011)

In Christianity/Judaism and other related religions there is the idea that there is 'free will' for humans. There is also the outright statement that God is all knowing, all powerful, and in the past, present, and future. So my issue is this:

If God is past, present, and future as well as being all powerful and all knowing then he must have known that when he made the humans how they would end up. IE: A bunch of assholes who didn't do what he wanted.

If God made us and didn't know how we would end up then he cannot be all powerful and all knowing. If he made us and knew how we would end up, then we don't have free will. 

Am I missing something that would allow the two to mesh?


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## Brazko (Apr 1, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> Am I missing something that would allow the two to mesh?


Free Will


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## Carne Seca (Apr 2, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> In Christianity/Judaism and other related religions there is the idea that there is 'free will' for humans. There is also the outright statement that God is all knowing, all powerful, and in the past, present, and future. So my issue is this:
> 
> If God is past, present, and future as well as being all powerful and all knowing then he must have known that when he made the humans how they would end up. IE: A bunch of assholes who didn't do what he wanted.
> 
> ...


You're like the blind man that has to describe an Elephant by it's tail. It's a lot more complicated than you can imagine. According to Christian doctrine there was a war in Heaven and the Adversary was thrown down with those he corrupted which amounted to 1/3 the host of heaven. The war was about free agency. The Adversary wanted to force people to follow the will of God. Jesus stepped forward and offered himself as sacrifice for sake of humanity and to maintain free agency. People must choose to follow the Gospel and maintain their free will. Christ knew this and offered himself as sacrifice for the sins of mankind as they struggle through life and make mistakes. God cannot abide sin so no man can make it into Heaven by his own merits. It requires a mediator. Christ was that mediator. The fascinating aspect to this belief is the clear message that free will or free agency is an integral part of humanity and our spirituality. The fact that this scenario is going on in Heaven is a clear indication that free will was in full operation. 

For free agency to truly work it must encompass all including God himself. He is bound by it. By choice. In a Christian perspective you can say that Evolution is the ultimate expression of free agency. There is great debate over this issue and you aren't the first to puzzle over it. I am just giving one perspective of a kaleidoscopic concept.


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## HuffPuppy (Apr 2, 2011)

A very difficult topic very well put Carne. In summary, God has a plan for us all but gave us free will to choose for ourselves whether to follow it.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 2, 2011)

*LOL* You just put into one sentence what I was trying to say in a paragraph.


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## 0011StealTH (Apr 2, 2011)

We have the FREEWILL of being our own creators we don't need a GOD
We have with IN

Take responsability.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 2, 2011)

0011StealTH said:


> We have the FREEWILL of being our own creators we don't need a GOD
> We have with IN
> 
> Take responsability.


That is what free will is all about, taking responsibility.


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## NLNo5 (Apr 2, 2011)

We are made in his image and likeness. We can't love him without freedom. He's not waiting for us to hit the nail on the head. He's giving us a life to lead and a path to follow as we see fit. It's like a marriage you don't really understand it until you've done it and completed your journey.

We have to complete the journey, THE TRICK IS IN THE COMPLETION OF IT. It's like preparation for something up ahead. If we bail now or take the wrong path in life we won't be at a place where we fully appreciate His program.

It's His grand love experiment going on in His great universe and he want's us to know the meaning of properly completing the journey. Each one of us has a separate and unique path, yet all of us can help each other along the way.


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## NLNo5 (Apr 2, 2011)

0011StealTH said:


> We have the FREEWILL of being our own creators we don't need a GOD
> We have with IN
> 
> Take responsability.


Never really was convinced we needed to remove the Creator from the Creation. Maybe free will and responsibility are also created by the Creator and a part of the Creative process.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 2, 2011)

NLNo5 said:


> Never really was convinced we needed to remove the Creator from the Creation. Maybe free will and responsibility are also created by the Creator and a part of the Creative process.


Just consider the possibility that Evolution is the method of Creation. You cannot dismiss Evolution. It's a proven biological process.


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## Eric Miller (Apr 2, 2011)

ok, i have to make this clear about me before anything else i say comes out. I am a satanist. but i look at everything with an open mind without making any decision on something. no i am not the "enemy", nor do i want to be. i was raised in as a christian. I had so many questions about everything. my pastor could never answer me. i have tried praying. it did nothing for me. but i have seen prayer work for others. i have seen God "what or whoever that may be" working through other people. but i had to stop and ask myself was it the person making a decision themselves or was it something more? i do something what i like to call (for lack of a better term) "random acts of kindness". is that Gods work? or is that my work? i respect everyone's religion and/or beliefs or lack thereof. i just ask a simple question please dont throw virtual stones they kind of hurt too. especially on a subject such as this.


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## mindphuk (Apr 2, 2011)

HuffPuppy said:


> A very difficult topic very well put Carne. In summary, God has a plan for us all but gave us free will to choose for ourselves whether to follow it.


 I think what the OP is saying is that omniscience paired with omnipotence is incapable with free will. 


[video=youtube;S6_9QmM6TfE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE[/video]


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## Carne Seca (Apr 2, 2011)

Eric Miller said:


> ok, i have to make this clear about me before anything else i say comes out. I am a satanist. but i look at everything with an open mind without making any decision on something. no i am not the "enemy", nor do i want to be. i was raised in as a christian. I had so many questions about everything. my pastor could never answer me. i have tried praying. it did nothing for me. but i have seen prayer work for others. i have seen God "what or whoever that may be" working through other people. but i had to stop and ask myself was it the person making a decision themselves or was it something more? i do something what i like to call (for lack of a better term) "random acts of kindness". is that Gods work? or is that my work? i respect everyone's religion and/or beliefs or lack thereof. i just ask a simple question please dont throw virtual stones they kind of hurt too. especially on a subject such as this.


So basically you're a Son of Perdition with a big heart.


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## NLNo5 (Apr 2, 2011)

I've got no problem with evolution, I'm a biologist. evolution is pretty obvious to me. Just cause we have our understanding of the physical world and how it operates doesn't mean there isn't a spiritual world that is operating also. People like to put a lot of faith into science. But as a scientist I can honestly say we all barely know shit about shit. We are an incredibly limited organism with an incredibly limited perspective on the universe. Spiritual senses are just as important as physical senses, but many people are blind spiritually and rely too much on their physical knowledge.


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## iNVESTIGATE (Apr 2, 2011)

blah blah blah blurpty blurp!



lol "God" is an idea. Created in the minds of primitive people thousands upon thousands of years ago when we had no real idea of what is what and desperately wanted an easy explanation. Outdated and nonsensical. Freewill is alive. Every action has a reaction. Be respectful to ACTUAL living people and reciprocate those feelings in social-life while we still and only have this ONE life. *Fuck god*.


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## NLNo5 (Apr 2, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> I think what the OP is saying is that omniscience paired with omnipotence is incapable with free will.
> 
> 
> [video=youtube;S6_9QmM6TfE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE[/video]


You can ride that circle all day. The thing that comes to mind is we have pretty limited understanding based on a pretty narrow perspective about what omniscience, omnipotence and free will really are.

Rationalism has it's limits.


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## NLNo5 (Apr 2, 2011)

iNVESTIGATE said:


> blah blah blah blurpty blurp!
> 
> 
> 
> lol "God" is an idea. Created in the minds of primitive people thousands upon thousands of years ago when we had no real idea of what is what and desperately wanted an easy explanation. Outdated and nonsensical. Freewill is alive. Every action has a reaction. Be respectful to ACTUAL living people and reciprocate those feelings in social-life while we still and only have this ONE life. *Fuck god*.


I guess we'll all find out some day. We're all gonna die an then we'll know for sure. iNVESTIGATE that. Maybe possibly there might be a God and it might be just a little bit prudent not to tell him to fuck off. After all you are promoting respect an reciprocation. Perhaps if there is a Creator maybe we have something to be thankful for. Besides all that, there are decent people here who may care quite a lot about the thing called God, maybe it might be respectful to at least respect that they appreciate something you don't and refrain from careless possibly painful words. Chances are the God people might actually care a lot about you too.


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## budlover13 (Apr 2, 2011)

The ole Free-will Paradox is alive and well.


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## iNVESTIGATE (Apr 2, 2011)

NLNo5 said:


> I guess we'll all find out some day. We're all gonna die an then we'll know for sure. iNVESTIGATE that. Maybe possibly there might be a God and it might be just a little bit prudent not to tell him to fuck off. After all you are promoting respect an reciprocation. Perhaps if there is a Creator maybe we have something to be thankful for. Besides all that, there are decent people here who may care quite a lot about the thing called God, maybe it might be respectful to at least respect that they appreciate something you don't and refrain from careless possibly painful words. Chances are the God people might actually care a lot about you too.



Well then.. i've been told then haven't i?



lol Sorry you took offense buddy-guy-friend. And investigate whatttt exactly!? 

But "god" is a goddamn fuckin' douchebag, and you are too, _if_ you side w/ an all powerful creator that has allowed and _planned out_ all of this _unnecessary_ death, deprivation, poverty, and loveliness. 


I do have respect for people that give it and for things we can see/prove. Not just respecting something out of fear for being wrong. Which is basically fascism. If i die and i find myself standing there at the gate's w/ St. suck-my-Peter ill just say "So, WTF?! Was It A Good Show?"


Take care now buh-bye then.


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## mindphuk (Apr 2, 2011)

NLNo5 said:


> You can ride that circle all day. The thing that comes to mind is we have pretty limited understanding based on a pretty narrow perspective about what omniscience, omnipotence and free will really are.
> 
> Rationalism has it's limits.


Rationalism or critical thinking, is the only tool we have to know if something is true or not. There may be this thing you call the spiritual world but without evidence, there is no way to know whether it actually exists or not. Omniscience, Omnipotence and free will are human defined terms, there is nothing special or limited about them. Either your god is omniscient or not. He either made us knowing that we would fail in his desire, or not. You are the ones giving specific traits to you god, not us. There might be a god, but the one described in the holy texts are contradictory therefore logically impossible. 


[video=youtube;5wV_REEdvxo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wV_REEdvxo[/video]


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## Carne Seca (Apr 2, 2011)

iNVESTIGATE said:


> Well then.. i've been told then haven't i?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Apparently you have a very loose grasp of Free Agency.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 2, 2011)

budlover13 said:


> The ole Free-will Paradox is alive and well.


It's a fascinating topic.


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## Cloner X (Apr 2, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> If he made us and knew how we would end up, then we don't have free will.
> 
> Am I missing something that would allow the two to mesh?


I think you're making this more complicated than it actually is. One can grant free will, even when having the ability to understand the outcome w/o being a puppet master. How is God's knowing which decision you're going to make hindering your own free will? It's not. 

I give my children choices, too. Often times - knowing them well enough - i have a good idea of what choice they'll make, but for their own educational benefits i give them the ability to make the choice themselves and hence learn. They made the choice and learned from it while i gave them the ability to have the freedom to make that choice and learn from their own experience. The two are perfectly compatible.


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## Brazko (Apr 2, 2011)

Cloner X said:


> I think you're making this more complicated than it actually is. One can grant free will, even when having the ability to understand the outcome w/o being a puppet master. How is God's knowing which decision you're going to make hindering your own free will? It's not


God and Free Will 

There is only 1 beginning and 1 end. I know this (theoretically speaking). Since 1 cannot exist without the other you can consider the 2 as 1 whole (god/God). There are infinite paths to take between these two points. However, I still know where you will start and the only place you can finish no matter what path you take. 

It only gets confusing when allowed to be, usually due to the fact of attempting to deconstruct something of no literal logic, instead of taking that which is illogical and conceiving it logically. This is not an attempt to explain any specific literal religious text or deity, just my way of showing a logical variation to understanding the concept of Free Will without the cryptic hurdles. I'm sure the OP may have preferred the illogical instead. A better Read it would be Indeed


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## Eric Miller (Apr 3, 2011)

If that is what label you wish to put onto me you are free to do so. But I do have to thank you for putting my beliefs down in a "subliminal" manner. I felt it necessary to say my religion so the people who may read it can get a different perspective from a different religion. because i feel that we are all trying to do is gain some knowledge on here. life is about knowledge.


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## ESR360 (Apr 3, 2011)

For "free will" to exist, there needs to be the concept of "I", as in _me_, my consciousness, my mind etc. Now once we have that concept, there are various ways of interpreting it. Is our mind and body separate? I think for free will to truly exist, the answer to this question has to be yes. If the mind and the body are not separate, then I do not think free will exists. There's a good scene in the movie "waking life" which explains it well. When we make a decision, what is the process that's going on brain? You could start from reverse, from when the signals reach your brain, to how the signals got there, to where the signals came from, to what created the signals etc etc.. and you start to look at it and you just have to think is it really my decision? If you look at the entire time line from requiring a decision to be made to the making of the decision, at what point do _you_ fit in and _make_ the decision? We certainly do not have any control over how our neurones and synapses work, nor do we have control over the external environmental factors. Could temperature affect decision? Would my mentality when I was too cold be significantly different to my mentality if I were too hot, to the extent my decision would be changed? It depends on the context I guess. But even if you needed to make a decision whether to take your sweater off or not, you would take it off when you felt like you became too hot. Do you choose this moment? Do you choose when you are too hot? What would ultimately drive you to take your sweater off? You're own choice? Based off what?

In summary, I don't think free will exists. Every action that me make is due to prior action of something else. Also, if this universe was replicated atom by atom, quark by quark etc, I think everything would pan out the exact same way. You might bring quantum physics into this and the random jolting of whatever it is, but I think in this parallel universe I have just described, the "random" movements would be just as random, ie, the same.


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## mindphuk (Apr 3, 2011)

ESR360 said:


> In summary, I don't think free will exists. Every action that me make is due to prior action of something else. Also, if this universe was replicated atom by atom, quark by quark etc, I think everything would pan out the exact same way. You might bring quantum physics into this and the random jolting of whatever it is, but I think in this parallel universe I have just described, the "random" movements would be just as random, ie, the same.


 then they aren't truly random then. 

Do you honestly think that all decisions are predetermined? When I was playing poker last night, I almost called a pre-flop bet with a weak hand in order to make a move. I should have done it because I would have made the joint on the flop. I decided I would wait for a different spot but in my mind it was still a random moment. How can you be sure in a parallel universe, I didn't make that bet and win the pot?


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## ESR360 (Apr 3, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> then they aren't truly random then.
> 
> Do you honestly think that all decisions are predetermined? When I was playing poker last night, I almost called a pre-flop bet with a weak hand in order to make a move. I should have done it because I would have made the joint on the flop. I decided I would wait for a different spot but in my mind it was still a random moment. How can you be sure in a parallel universe, I didn't make that bet and win the pot?


No you are right, they aren't truly random, I was trying to insinuate that with what I said. They may be perceived as "random" in our 3 dimensional universe, but once you get beyond the 4th dimension, the word random, or any word we have to describe anything, pretty much becomes void. So if we are talking about 2 different parallel universes, we are talking about the 5th dimension, where random is nothing.

I think that whatever caused you to not call it, would also cause you to not call it in a parallel universe, assuming the parallel one is an exact replica atom by atom like I said before. There could have been thousands, even millions of factors which would have been taken account when you made your decision. It could be as small as a hand you called 10 years ago, it could be as small as the first time you tried coca cola. Whatever set of factors caused you to make that decision, would all be present in the parallel universe, thus, you would have always make that decision. Have you heard of Newcomb's paradox? It's quite interesting if you haven't already read about it and are interested in the free will - determinism debate.


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## mindphuk (Apr 3, 2011)

ESR360 said:


> No you are right, they aren't truly random, I was trying to insinuate that with what I said. They may be perceived as "random" in our 3 dimensional universe, but once you get beyond the 4th dimension, the word random, or any word we have to describe anything, pretty much becomes void. So if we are talking about 2 different parallel universes, we are talking about the 5th dimension, where random is nothing.
> 
> I think that whatever caused you to not call it, would also cause you to not call it in a parallel universe, assuming the parallel one is an exact replica atom by atom like I said before. There could have been thousands, even millions of factors which would have been taken account when you made your decision. It could be as small as a hand you called 10 years ago, it could be as small as the first time you tried coca cola. Whatever set of factors caused you to make that decision, would all be present in the parallel universe, thus, you would have always make that decision. Have you heard of Newcomb's paradox? It's quite interesting if you haven't already read about it and are interested in the free will - determinism debate.


 I guess I understand you POV but why do you think this is reality? What kind of evidence do you have for this belief?


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## Carthoris (Apr 3, 2011)

Carne Seca said:


> You're like the blind man that has to describe an Elephant by it's tail. It's a lot more complicated than you can imagine. According to Christian doctrine there was a war in Heaven and the Adversary was thrown down with those he corrupted which amounted to 1/3 the host of heaven. The war was about free agency. The Adversary wanted to force people to follow the will of God. Jesus stepped forward and offered himself as sacrifice for sake of humanity and to maintain free agency. People must choose to follow the Gospel and maintain their free will. Christ knew this and offered himself as sacrifice for the sins of mankind as they struggle through life and make mistakes. God cannot abide sin so no man can make it into Heaven by his own merits. It requires a mediator. Christ was that mediator. The fascinating aspect to this belief is the clear message that free will or free agency is an integral part of humanity and our spirituality. The fact that this scenario is going on in Heaven is a clear indication that free will was in full operation.
> 
> For free agency to truly work it must encompass all including God himself. He is bound by it. By choice. In a Christian perspective you can say that Evolution is the ultimate expression of free agency. There is great debate over this issue and you aren't the first to puzzle over it. I am just giving one perspective of a kaleidoscopic concept.


I understand how it is supposed to work in Christianity per the bible. It never really addresses my opening post in the bible except to say that free will exists and so does God being all powerful and all knowing. Even though the two seem to preclude each other.


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## Carthoris (Apr 3, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> I think what the OP is saying is that omniscience paired with omnipotence is incapable with free will.
> 
> 
> [video=youtube;S6_9QmM6TfE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6_9QmM6TfE[/video]


Yes, that is what I was getting at. I did take some pain pills, a few beers, and smoke a little. Omniscience and omnipotence logically preclude free will. They really cannot exist together. Is there some logical argument to the contrary or just faith as an answer?


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## moodster (Apr 3, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> In Christianity/Judaism and other related religions there is the idea that there is 'free will' for humans. There is also the outright statement that God is all knowing, all powerful, and in the past, present, and future. So my issue is this:
> 
> If God is past, present, and future as well as being all powerful and all knowing then he must have known that when he made the humans how they would end up. IE: A bunch of assholes who didn't do what he wanted.
> 
> ...


 hope this helps brother


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## Carthoris (Apr 3, 2011)

NLNo5 said:


> You can ride that circle all day. The thing that comes to mind is we have pretty limited understanding based on a pretty narrow perspective about what omniscience, omnipotence and free will really are.
> 
> Rationalism has it's limits.


If you don't follow the paths open to you, you will never reach your destination.


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## Carthoris (Apr 3, 2011)

Cloner X said:


> I think you're making this more complicated than it actually is. One can grant free will, even when having the ability to understand the outcome w/o being a puppet master. How is God's knowing which decision you're going to make hindering your own free will? It's not.
> 
> I give my children choices, too. Often times - knowing them well enough - i have a good idea of what choice they'll make, but for their own educational benefits i give them the ability to make the choice themselves and hence learn. They made the choice and learned from it while i gave them the ability to have the freedom to make that choice and learn from their own experience. The two are perfectly compatible.


You don't know what your children will do, you can guess. God knew Adam and Eve would do what they did and that your children would be the result of what Adam and Eve did. When you leave your car keys on your end table and the kids see it and decide to go for a joy ride you might of guessed they would do that. However, God knew with certainty even while he was creating Adam and Eve that your children were going to run your car into your garage door. Children are beyond our understanding, however, nothing is beyond Gods understand. A brick would make a much better comparison. If I make a concrete block from mortar and I give it free will then I drop it in a bucket of water, it will sink. I knew before hand it would sink in water and if I didn't want it to sink I would of made it out of foam. If I make a foam block, give it free will, and drop it into the bucket, it will float. The only way that the first block would float is if I didn't know anything about blocks and did something completely wrong and caused it to float. The second block I would have to really mess it up to cause it to sink. What does God want from us that he created us? He either wants us to be exactly as we are, in which case we have no free will. Or he wanted us to be something else, in which case he made us flawed. Which makes him less than perfect. I am not saying I don't believe in God or that the bible is wrong, what I am looking for is something to fix this glaring issue in what I believe is the very core of Christianity.


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## Carthoris (Apr 3, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> then they aren't truly random then.
> 
> Do you honestly think that all decisions are predetermined? When I was playing poker last night, I almost called a pre-flop bet with a weak hand in order to make a move. I should have done it because I would have made the joint on the flop. I decided I would wait for a different spot but in my mind it was still a random moment. How can you be sure in a parallel universe, I didn't make that bet and win the pot?


Predetermined or 'they are what they are' Is a rock predetermined to be a rock? I would guess so. Without a change in outside force everything is exactly what it is. I have no idea what the hell a flop and joint are.


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## Carthoris (Apr 3, 2011)

moodster said:


> hope this helps brother


LOL, it helps as much as the other posts did. I think it is one of those unanswerable questions, but you never know when the answer might be right in front of you. Consequently isn't that what Gary's wife told him when he lay dying on the floor and needed help? "Who fucking cares" then "I can't deal with this right now"


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## Windsblow (Apr 3, 2011)

iNVESTIGATE said:


> Well then.. i've been told then haven't i?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


With all that hatred I would find it hard not to be an Antheist. Poor guy.


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## Windsblow (Apr 3, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> Yes, that is what I was getting at. I did take some pain pills, a few beers, and smoke a little. Omniscience and omnipotence logically preclude free will. They really cannot exist together. Is there some logical argument to the contrary or just faith as an answer?


I think Deism has settled alot of these theologic and teleologic quirks, for me. God plays a role but I don't think he's Omniscient. I think Free will and God are not a contradiction. I think GOD has to obey the same laws of the Universe.


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## mindphuk (Apr 3, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I think Deism has settled alot of these theologic and teleologic quirks, for me. God plays a role but I don't think he's Omniscient. I think Free will and God are not a contradiction. I think GOD has to obey the same laws of the Universe.


Now that would certainly be a more logically consistent god and has an infinitely higher chance of being correct than the extremely flawed xian deity, it still begs the question, where did that god come from? Do complex intelligent beings just spring into existence themselves? Or do they have to follow some sort of natural law like a Darwinian mode of increasing complexity? Starts to get harder and harder to justify the existence of a god. I went through a similar stage as you are in right now on my way to becoming a true skeptic of anything like a complex intelligent creator that owes it's existence to nothing.


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## Windsblow (Apr 3, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Now that would certainly be a more logically consistent god and has an infinitely higher chance of being correct than the extremely flawed xian deity, it still begs the question, where did that god come from? Do complex intelligent beings just spring into existence themselves? Or do they have to follow some sort of natural law like a Darwinian mode of increasing complexity? Starts to get harder and harder to justify the existence of a god. I went through a similar stage as you are in right now on my way to becoming a true skeptic of anything like a complex intelligent creator that owes it's existence to nothing.


Yes, but the same holds true for us. Do we (as intelligent beings able to create and reason) owe are existance to nothing? 

We can't say we aren't created but yet exist at the same time, can we? 

Samantics? Maybe, but I exist and I didn't create myself. The same could hold true for GOD.


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## Windsblow (Apr 3, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Now that would certainly be a more logically consistent god and has an infinitely higher chance of being correct than the extremely flawed xian deity, it still begs the question, where did that god come from? Do complex intelligent beings just spring into existence themselves? Or do they have to follow some sort of natural law like a Darwinian mode of increasing complexity? Starts to get harder and harder to justify the existence of a god. I went through a similar stage as you are in right now on my way to becoming a true skeptic of anything like a complex intelligent creator that owes it's existence to nothing.


Yes, but the same holds true for us. Do we (as intelligent beings able to create and reason) owe are existance to nothing? 

We can't say we aren't created but yet exist at the same time can we. 

Samantics? Maybe, but I exist and I didn't create myself. The same could hold true for GOD.


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## mindphuk (Apr 4, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> Yes, but the same holds true for us. Do we (as intelligent beings able to create and reason) owe are existance to nothing?
> 
> We can't say we aren't created but yet exist at the same time, can we?
> 
> Samantics? Maybe, but I exist and I didn't create myself. The same could hold true for GOD.


You're right but we know how you were created. Your parents created you and their parents created them and we can trace that all of the way back to at least single cell organisms. That aspect of life is no longer a mystery. Why do you think many xians have such a problem with Darwinian evolution? It's because of this very realization. They believe that understanding how complexity can arise from the very simple doesn't leave much room left for a deity. So many random events must have occurred for us to even be here. A god that wanted us to be the end-result of his creation would have to be an interfering one, not a deistic, hands-off one.


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## Windsblow (Apr 4, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> You're right but we know how you were created. Your parents created you and their parents created them and we can trace that all of the way back to at least single cell organisms. That aspect of life is no longer a mystery. Why do you think many xians have such a problem with Darwinian evolution? It's because of this very realization. They believe that understanding how complexity can arise from the very simple doesn't leave much room left for a deity. So many random events must have occurred for us to even be here. A god that wanted us to be the end-result of his creation would have to be an interfering one, not a deistic, hands-off one.


We understand the mechanics of earthly creation, as in reproduction. But we don't understand how it actually happens all we know is it does and we take educated quesses. We don't understand cellular intelligence. We don't understand how the hell a cell, which it controlled by the DNA of that organism has, has it's own seperate DNA within it. We don't know that Darwinian theories are true, it has big holes in it, we just believe it is the most reasonable answer. Not to mention the whole epigenetics theories popping up. At some level faith plays a role on both sides.


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## mindphuk (Apr 4, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> We understand the mechanics of earthly creation, as in reproduction. But we don't understand how it actually happens all we know is it does and we take educated quesses. We don't understand cellular intelligence. We don't understand how the hell a cell, which it controlled by the DNA of that organism has, has it's own seperate DNA within it. We don't know that Darwinian theories are true, it has big holes in it, we just believe it is the most reasonable answer. Not to mention the whole epigenetics theories popping up. At some level faith plays a role on both sides.


Darwinian evolution is true at the most basic level and that is that complexity must arise gradually and in small increments over large spans of time. The only holes in the theory are minor and are a matter of details which do not threaten the basic concept. Epigenetics merely adds more detail to inheritance. It doesn't falsify or make natural selection untrue.

Faith plays no role in conclusions obtained using inductive reasoning.


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## Windsblow (Apr 4, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Darwinian evolution is true at the most basic level and that is that complexity must arise gradually and in small increments over large spans of time. The only holes in the theory are minor and are a matter of details which do not threaten the basic concept. Epigenetics merely adds more detail to inheritance. It doesn't falsify or make natural selection untrue.
> 
> Faith plays no role in conclusions obtained using inductive reasoning.


I was never implying that it does. 

But we can only formulate ideas with the data we have 
We have such a small amount of knowledge, that to conclude anything as truth is dishonest.

You can call it what ever you want faith is just a word and doesn't suggest anything mystic. 

Epigenetic doesn't just add to inheritance it also add another level of complexity like the mind, intent and will; things lower animals will not benefit from.


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## moodster (Apr 4, 2011)

all i was trying to say was


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## mindphuk (Apr 4, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I was never implying that it does.
> 
> But we can only formulate ideas with the data we have
> We have such a small amount of knowledge, that to conclude anything as truth is dishonest.


You seriously want to go in that direction? You seemed like such a reasonable person.
Sure, nothing can be known as truth, I could be a brain in a vat not actually experiencing the world as I thought I was. However, if we conclude that there is some shared reality, then we can use observation and rational methodology to determine the nature of this world. Not having all of the answers doesn't mean that we don't know any. The fact is that the results we get from science are self-confirming. Every time we use the knowledge gained from science, either in another observation or use in technology, and it actually works, then we have another piece of data that confirms our models are at least mostly correct. You say we have a small amount of knowledge but we confirm that knowledge billions of times over. Every new piece of evidence that supports it and every new piece of data that doesn't falsify it only adds to the strength of the knowledge. 


> You can call it what ever you want faith is just a word and doesn't suggest anything mystic.


Faith is just a word but it has certain meanings and implications. That's what words do. If you say that "both sides" require faith, you are equivocating on the word and using two different definitions. The knowledge gained from science is not faith-based but that is the implication that you create when you casually throw these types of words around. 


> Epigenetic doesn't just add to inheritance it also add another level of complexity like the mind, intent and will; things lower animals will not benefit from.


 You will have to explain this line of reasoning and offer some support.


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## Windsblow (Apr 4, 2011)

I was specifically speaking to the metaphysical, and suggesting that some of biology has to be treated as such, at least at this point.


I believe in Evolution. It speaks nothing to existence of a (g)God or the lack thereof. 


Epigenetic has to do with external stimuli and internal stimuli they both have trigger effect.


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## mindphuk (Apr 4, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I was specifically speaking to the metaphysical, and suggesting that some of biology has to be treated as such, at least at this point.


Than you should be more clear, and now possibly more detailed because biology does not recognize anything metaphysical. The supernatural and things unprovable are not in the realm of science to investigate. If you are to claim that there is something beyond which we can observe, then I remain skeptical and wait for you to provide a good reason I should accept this premise. 




> I believe in Evolution. It speaks nothing to existence of a (g)God or the lack thereof.


I never claimed it had anything to do with god. It does eliminate the necessity of god for one of the great mysteries of life. Another gap down the drain. I think the fundies have a right to be concerned and that's why they attack evolution with such vigor. They rightly believe that without Darwin, we would still have a hard time letting go of the concept of a creator. Darwin made it possible to be a heathen, ahem, atheist. 


> Epigenetic has to do with external stimuli and internal stimuli they both have trigger effect.


 I didn't ask you for a definition, I'm well familiar with epigenetics. I asked you to clarify and expound upon the statement, 


> * Epigenetic doesn't just add to inheritance it also add another level of complexity like the mind, intent and will; things lower animals will not benefit from. *


I have no idea what that means wrt epigenetics.


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## Windsblow (Apr 4, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Than you should be more clear, and now possibly more detailed because biology does not recognize anything metaphysical. The supernatural and things unprovable are not in the realm of science to investigate. If you are to claim that there is something beyond which we can observe, then I remain skeptical and wait for you to provide a good reason I should accept this premise.
> 
> 
> I never claimed it had anything to do with god. It does eliminate the necessity of god for one of the great mysteries of life. Another gap down the drain. I think the fundies have a right to be concerned and that's why they attack evolution with such vigor. They rightly believe that without Darwin, we would still have a hard time letting go of the concept of a creator. Darwin made it possible to be a heathen, ahem, atheist.
> ...


Am I sensing a tone of condescension?


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## mindphuk (Apr 4, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> Am I sensing a tone of condescension?


 More of a tone of confusion. You talk about metaphysics and biology, epigenetics and the mind. I'm not making the connections. Also you are starting to appear hesitant to elaborate and that makes me ask more questions.


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## Carthoris (Apr 5, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> Am I sensing a tone of condescension?


What does that Libertarianism thing in your quote say?


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## Bauks (Apr 5, 2011)

Just looking at the title Made my Head hurt thinking about days past in philosophy class ....As of now there is no proof a god even exists so the whole question falls void due to a faulty premise. And as Such It Is not worth Thinking about


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## Carthoris (Apr 5, 2011)

Bauks said:


> Just looking at the title Made my Head hurt thinking about days past in philosophy class ....As of now there is no proof a god even exists so the whole question falls void due to a faulty premise. And as Such It Is not worth Thinking about




I always liked the way Hitchhiker Guide to the Galaxy approached God.


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## Windsblow (Apr 5, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> What does that Libertarianism thing in your quote say?


Because it's none of your damn business what in my car officer!


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## Bauks (Apr 5, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> I always liked the way Hitchhiker Guide to the Galaxy approached God.


Funny you say that I just swooped a hardcover copy Of "And Another Thing" By Eoin Colfer 
HHGTTG: Part Six of Three 

Life the Univers And Everything Is My Peronal all time favorite read


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## Snow Crash (Apr 5, 2011)

There is no "free-choice" as we would like it.

We are made of molecules, which are made of smaller atoms, and all these parts that make us up - from the synapses to the plasma - all of this is governed by physical laws. As such, we are subject to the entirety of our learned existence, our genetic makeup/dispositions, and cause-effect. These laws determine what will happen at all places, in all times, regardless.

In addition, space-time exists in a manner outside of our perception of the flow of time. As such, the future and the present and the past are equally "existing." If we could observe the universe extrospectively we would see space-time as a unified "dimension" of existence. We could see that the future is very much a "place" just like how Delaware is a "place." This simple understanding of the nature of Time demonstrates that there is destiny to life, where what will happen has (in essence) already happened, as much as it is happening. 

Then you may say that in quantum physics there is some uncertainty. To that I would reply that the uncertainty stems only from our misunderstanding and results from our observation of the system interfering, causing a new causal relationship between "self" and existence. I would say that we are all composed of energy. That, like two tornadoes spinning closer and closer together we are all made of "the wind." When apart we appear to be two distinctly, separate, energies but as we come closer together the interwoven relationship becomes clear. Then the energy merges and the "oneness" of existence is apparent.

Think of yourself as a Tornado, a spinning torrent of wild (near unpredictable) energy. Everything around you, the couch, the internet, your mom... everything is a whirling torrent of energy on a multi-dimensional level that we are all, everyone of us connected to and subject of. The universe is as much a "God" as we could hope for, with the Laws being His fingers forcing destiny along.

If we were to have a soul, and from the soul springs choice, there could be an argument made. To say that a dog is hungry, so it eats. An ape has an itch, so he scratches it. That we, human beings, were created different than the other creatures and as such have been gifted the ability to hunger strike, or ignore an itch. This is an issue though, because we cannot say for certain if the dog does eat every time it is hungry or if the ape does scratch every time it itches. We cannot know the mind of beings not ourselves so of course "we" would say we are the ones with a soul and with free-choice. We are the only ones we can know about. Yet dolphins mate for enjoyment and dogs are keenly sensitive to emotion, and these are the pursuits of pleasure and emotion that I think, we think, choice comes from. 

We could then say that all creatures, rocks, trees, everything has a spirit, an essence, a "-ness" about it. A pebble-ness. A Red-ness. But at that point we see things which have no choice, or mobility for that matter, and it becomes clear that the soul isn't all it takes. This makes the human soul different than say, a tree soul.

This brings us back to God, but lost in the ability to try and measure or describe what exactly would lead to free choice. The faith argument isn't really an argument at all, because a person simply has faith that "it's like _this_." So, I must conclude then that despite existing in a causal universe we, for whatever reason, have a completely unverifiable faith that says we get to choose. 

But haven't you heard the saying "God has a plan." It is how we justify still born babies, and 3 year-olds with brain tumors. The never ending horrors of our planet written off as the Will of God, part of his great and divine cosmic plan.

And what kind of God would he be if we were in charge of "His" universe. That is a fallacy right there. It would seem that God constructed this great causal universe, with Space-Time being what it is, and then said, "Okay, everything that will happen has in essence already happened. Have fun trying to make choices in that system!"

Pretty much however you carve it, with a god, with a soul, in a physical universe... Life is deterministic. 

Where I find solace is in a line from one of the Matrix movies (interestingly very philosophical films):


> ...you didn't come here to make the choice.
> You've already made it.
> You're here to try to understand _*why* _you made it...


So that's it. We have already made our choices, just as much as they weren't really choices but "what we will do." The whole meaning to life, in my very humble opinion, is to understand the "why" and the context surrounding our decisions.

To put it another way... A decision is like a painting. The choice itself, is the physical painting, it is the apple on the canvas. What we can do, what our true purpose is, is to look at that red apple and see that it is a juicy, vibrant, piece of sustenance. To relate it to our lives, the smell of apple pie cooking in your grandmother's oven, the story of Adam and Eve and original sin.

From the outside, the painting is just the painting in much the same way an cigar is sometimes just a cigar, or a choice is just a choice. The important things, the REALLY good shit, is beneath the surface of the choice. It is in the experience. I cannot choose my experience, but I know that "I" am something, I have a self, and that I can do little more than observe and comprehend, to relate. Beyond that I find a certain Zen when accepting the will of causality, seeing the humor, beauty, and "-ness" of everything around us rather than feeling that endless "wanting."

Buddha was on to something. Remove desire and find inner peace.


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## HuffPuppy (Apr 5, 2011)

Snow, I am sincerely impressed by your ability to poetically describe physics concepts, however, as an armchair quantum enthusiast myself I must argue with some of your points. However, it would do nothing but muddle this thread. Is there a quantum theory/physics thread anywhere on RIU that would be a better place to discuss? If not, lets make one. 

For those that aren't as nerdy... I will simply say that science certainly does not have all the answers. Ironically, scientists are usually the first ones to admit that point. However, atheists love to refer to science as the end-all be-all. There is actually a fracture in the scientific community of those that believe the "facts" point to a basic natural order in the universe and those that believe more and more that the "facts" suggest that nothing but an external and possibly incomprehensible force must be in play. Recently many scientists are recalling their stance on the Big Bang, stating that research and observations show that it could not have happened as they theorized. Regardless... as a Christian, and also a mortal with mortal limitations, I must accept that I cannot possibly understand God. And once again, I have absolute faith in man's blind pride and self righteousness. Are we truly so full of ourselves that we believe we can unravel the mysteries of the universe and God? I say no, but I say we keep trying.


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## Windsblow (Apr 5, 2011)

HuffPuppy said:


> Snow, I am sincerely impressed by your ability to poetically describe physics concepts, however, as an armchair quantum enthusiast myself I must argue with some of your points. However, it would do nothing but muddle this thread. Is there a quantum theory/physics thread anywhere on RIU that would be a better place to discuss? If not, lets make one.
> 
> For those that aren't as nerdy... I will simply say that science certainly does not have all the answers. Ironically, scientists are usually the first ones to admit that point. However, atheists love to refer to science as the end-all be-all. There is actually a fracture in the scientific community of those that believe the "facts" point to a basic natural order in the universe and those that believe more and more that the "facts" suggest that nothing but an external and possibly incomprehensible force must be in play. Recently many scientists are recalling their stance on the Big Bang, stating that research and observations show that it could not have happened as they theorized. Regardless... as a Christian, and also a mortal with mortal limitations, I must accept that I cannot possibly understand God. And once again, I have absolute faith in man's blind pride and self righteousness. Are we truly so full of ourselves that we believe we can unravel the mysteries of the universe and God? I say no, but I say we keep trying.


Very well siad, If only I was so articulate.


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## Windsblow (Apr 5, 2011)

Start that quantum thread although I might not understand most of it I will definetly sub.


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## Snow Crash (Apr 5, 2011)

HuffPuppy said:


> Recently many scientists are recalling their stance on the Big Bang, stating that research and observations show that it could not have happened as they theorized.


Gotta love that string theory. A moment of perfect symmetry acting as a mirror to the alpha and the omega reflecting a single reverberating message. 

It has all happened before, and it will happen again. It is all just a Planck length away.

I dropped like 4 nerdy inside jokes in that.


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## HuffPuppy (Apr 5, 2011)

Haha... geek humor FTW!


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## HuffPuppy (Apr 5, 2011)

"Werner Heisenberg went for a drive and got stopped by a traffic cop. The cop asked, "Do you know how fast you were going?" Heisenberg replied, "No, but I know where I am." - True story from Munich circa mid-1900's


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## Ganjasism (Apr 5, 2011)

I don't want to piss people off with my opinions about religion (which I do not care for) but, it seems that most people (without thinking) automatically approach this topic from the viewpoint of the "bible". Well let's take into consideration, who wrote the books of the bible? What nation were these people from? The "god" of the bible, whose "god" was he? I mean, come on really??? That book was written by Jewish believers in JEHOVAH, the Jewish version of Whatever/Whoever "god" is. If you ever want to find some enlightening reading, just google "murder in the bible", and you will find out just what this jewish god thinks of everyone. It is "HIGH" time that we get honest with ourselves about god/religion, etc. If/When we do, we can honestly declare that WE DON"T KNOW! We weren't there when the solar system was put into motion; whoever/whatever did it, sure didn't ask our opinion on the matter. Did we have any say on being born? Do we have any say on our dying? Life is simply a gift. I don't know how I got it, but I did; and thanks goes to the creator whomever he/she/it is. I don't know if it's a force, a person, a spirit, an entity, or simply that it IS. 

I think alot of the problems with religion occur, when you look at human suffereing in the world, and try to reconcile this with an all knowing, loving, nurturing "god" of some sort. People die, but we don't have to explain it away like there's a flaw in human design, or that we're sinners, or that it's our fault. Why can't we just accept things for what they are? Life and death are just a part of who we are, what we are. I hope there is life after this life, but I really don't know, and neither does the pope, or any other "preacher", who makes false claims to the contrary. Here is a question that is fun to ask "bible" believers.....Which single word in the bible did Jesus write? NONE, NOT ONE. Did he say those things written in red? Don't know, I wasn't there; and those that claim they were there, were writing these things after he was dead and couldn't object, or agree, with them. JUST BE, and let's look after one another in the process. Much love. And we all should do what we can to stop the expoitation of HUMAN BEINGS for the profit of the few.


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## Carthoris (Apr 5, 2011)

Ganjasism said:


> I don't want to piss people off with my opinions about religion (which I do not care for) but, it seems that most people (without thinking) automatically approach this topic from the viewpoint of the "bible". Well let's take into consideration, who wrote the books of the bible? What nation were these people from? The "god" of the bible, whose "god" was he? I mean, come on really??? That book was written by Jewish believers in JEHOVAH, the Jewish version of Whatever/Whoever "god" is. If you ever want to find some enlightening reading, just google "murder in the bible", and you will find out just what this jewish god thinks of everyone. It is "HIGH" time that we get honest with ourselves about god/religion, etc. If/When we do, we can honestly declare that WE DON"T KNOW! We weren't there when the solar system was put into motion; whoever/whatever did it, sure didn't ask our opinion on the matter. Did we have any say on being born? Do we have any say on our dying? Life is simply a gift. I don't know how I got it, but I did; and thanks goes to the creator whomever he/she/it is. I don't know if it's a force, a person, a spirit, an entity, or simply that it IS.
> 
> I think alot of the problems with religion occur, when you look at human suffereing in the world, and try to reconcile this with an all knowing, loving, nurturing "god" of some sort. People die, but we don't have to explain it away like there's a flaw in human design, or that we're sinners, or that it's our fault. Why can't we just accept things for what they are? Life and death are just a part of who we are, what we are. I hope there is life after this life, but I really don't know, and neither does the pope, or any other "preacher", who makes false claims to the contrary. Here is a question that is fun to ask "bible" believers.....Which single word in the bible did Jesus write? NONE, NOT ONE. Did he say those things written in red? Don't know, I wasn't there; and those that claim they were there, were writing these things after he was dead and couldn't object, or agree, with them. JUST BE, and let's look after one another in the process. Much love. And we all should do what we can to stop the expoitation of HUMAN BEINGS for the profit of the few.


My opening post was in reference to Christianity/Islam/Judaism. The very idea of all power and free will together do not mesh in my mind, and I was just making sure I wasn't missing anything. I tried to explain it to someone last week and they just didn't get what I was trying to point out. I wasn't questioning any of the religious texts but the very idea of God and how someone who is perfect could create something flawed or alternatively why he would purposely make something flawed and then seem upset it was flawed.


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## Silky Shagsalot (Apr 6, 2011)

Carne Seca said:


> Christ was that mediator.


"is" that mediator.


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## crackerboy (Apr 6, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> Am I sensing a tone of condescension?


 You will get that a lot when disagreeing with MP.


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## Windsblow (Apr 6, 2011)

crackerboy said:


> You will get that a lot when disagreeing with MP.


I noticed.


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## mindphuk (Apr 6, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I noticed.


Excuse me? Where was the condescension? I clearly explained my confusion with your associations about things that are not typically related. Your lack of elaboration and clarification of your thoughts should not be projected into blaming the listener. I have been quite fair and patient with you. If you want to accuse me of something, go for it, I'm quite capable of defending my viewpoints but don't put your thought in the form of a question then stop talking when you get a response you didn't expect.


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## mindphuk (Apr 6, 2011)

crackerboy said:


> You will get that a lot when disagreeing with MP.


 CB, go fuckoff and defend your posts rather than continue to hurl insults.


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## Ganjasism (Apr 6, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> My opening post was in reference to Christianity/Islam/Judaism. The very idea of all power and free will together do not mesh in my mind, and I was just making sure I wasn't missing anything. I tried to explain it to someone last week and they just didn't get what I was trying to point out. I wasn't questioning any of the religious texts but the very idea of God and how someone who is perfect could create something flawed or alternatively why he would purposely make something flawed and then seem upset it was flawed.


I agree. We had no choice in the matter....that is not freewill. I prefer to believe that whoever put us here did so with the best intentions in mind and made us just the way they wanted to. It was totally in their hands, so how could it ever be our fault? We didn't create "evil". But for the life of me I cannot understand how any human being could possible take complete advantage of another human being and be ok with it. American Free Market Capitalism does it every single day. And the very ones that are disenfranchised because of it are the ones that defend it! Sorry, getting off on another subject. The fact that there are overweight people on one side of the planet, and on the other, those that are starving to death, speaks volumes as to where we are as a species. The human race has got to get to the point where we are not exploiting Mother Nature of Her resources for the profit of the few; but rather for the safegaurding, and nurturing of ALL Living Creatures.


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## Windsblow (Apr 6, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Excuse me? Where was the condescension? I clearly explained my confusion with your associations about things that are not typically related. Your lack of elaboration and clarification of your thoughts should not be projected into blaming the listener. I have been quite fair and patient with you. If you want to accuse me of something, go for it, I'm quite capable of defending my viewpoints but don't put your thought in the form of a question then stop talking when you get a response you didn't expect.


Like I siad condescening. 
I don't need your patience. 
What am I your child?


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## mindphuk (Apr 7, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> Like I siad condescening.
> I don't your patience.
> What am I your child?


What, you want to discuss this with someone that is impatient? I have been patient, patiently trying to piece together an understanding of your POV from the tidbits you toss to me. I've made more than a few requests with specific questions about how you are using certain words. As I said, you made connections that don't exist in the areas of biology I study and you seem reticent to elaborate. If you don't want to discuss it further, that's fine, but then say something. I attempted to see what you thought was condescension but didn't see anything, and you didn't mention specifics. I answered you honestly about still being confused and internet posters should always be warned from reading tone into words, one of the reason emoticons were developed. They say 60-70% or more of our communication with each other is non-verbal. When I say I was not being condescending, you should accept it until proven otherwise. I then didn't post again until you responded to another poster, completely ignoring my response to your condensation accusation. It seems to me that you rather start a fight than actually discuss this further. 

If you prefer you can go play crackerboy's games. I won't play. I'm done with you unless you decide to own up and realize your part in not being able to communicate your thoughts well enough. Good bye.


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## Windsblow (Apr 7, 2011)

-correction-
Like I siad condescening. 
I don't need your patience. 
What am I your child?



mindphuk said:


> What, you want to discuss this with someone that is impatient? I have been patient, patiently trying to piece together an understanding of your POV from the tidbits you toss to me. I've made more than a few requests with specific questions about how you are using certain words. As I said, you made connections that don't exist in the areas of biology I study and you seem reticent to elaborate. If you don't want to discuss it further, that's fine, but then say something. I attempted to see what you thought was condescension but didn't see anything, and you didn't mention specifics. I answered you honestly about still being confused and internet posters should always be warned from reading tone into words, one of the reason emoticons were developed. They say 60-70% or more of our communication with each other is non-verbal. When I say I was not being condescending, you should accept it until proven otherwise. I then didn't post again until you responded to another poster, completely ignoring my response to your condensation accusation. It seems to me that you rather start a fight than actually discuss this further.
> 
> If you prefer you can go play crackerboy's games. I won't play. I'm done with you unless you decide to own up and realize your part in not being able to communicate your thoughts well enough. Good bye.


 You are one strange dude. Do you interact with people very often? Who the hell talks to people on a forum like this. You take yourself way too seriouse. Uh..... and if you didn't notice I was done with this conversation long ago. 
Your a bit too late on that move.


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## Slojo69 (Apr 7, 2011)

wow how did i not see this thread lol. There is SOO much here that I wanted to respond to, but by the time I finished it would have been a 10 book series lol. Anyways, from a biblical stand point, free will was given to humans so that they could choose to follow god when they had the option of not following him. That is how he made adam and eve. Now what good is free will if they didn't have an option to mess up? There's where the tree of life came in. Now, Cathoris mentioned that god knew they would sin against him. Not true, he knew that there was the POSSIBILTY of it and what would happen IF they did. I knows what the outcome will be of every situation out there because in the end, He holds our fates in his hand. This is of course you believe in the bible and god. This is the readers Digest of what happened and why we were created with free will. Adam and Eve sinned and therefore spread it to us. Time went on and we needed an example to follow, a way out basically because humans were heading in the same direction as they were before the flood. So instead of wiping out the earth again, he sent his son, who was willing to sacrifice himself for us. Now, it says he is a god exacting exclusive devotion, therefore, we are to use this free will to follow in Jesus footsteps as best we can. Now, After all this is said and done, all this war, pestilence, poverty etc etc, he says we will be rewarded with everlasting life and the earth will be restored to what it was originally intended for, a paradise. So that's basically the pay off, free will = Choose to do whats right in this world of wickedness and temptation, get rewarded with everlasting life in a paradise.

Now I've also seen evolution thrown into this. Evolution had been proven yes, but we have evolved from already living and existing things. If evolution is the way things happened rather than creation? How did it start? there still is NO way to prove either side of this debate, none! I don't care how you think you can carbon date something or microscopically analyze something. If the earth is as old as scientists say, then how the hell can we know where we came from by a buncha bones in the earth that have been there for billions and billions of years? Now on the flip side, the bible says god created man from dust ... Iono how the hell he did that and niether does anyone else. The bottum line to all of this is evolution and genetics mean nothing when it comes to the topic of free will. We can choose to do WHATEVER we want within the laws of physics. Even beyond some of those laws lol. We can shoot someone in the face, we can drive home drunk, we can say "Fuck god" etc etc. 

Now personally i was brought up studying the bible very thoroughly and i mean VERY thoroughly. But now that I'm a grown ass man and I can see the world for myself. I just don't give a crap anymore. Religion is the most retarded thing there is out there. In my studies I can gaurantee that the bible is not to be interpreted the way these guys make it out to be. So use that free will man, study shit for yerself and make yer own mind as to why we are here and what we are to do with this life we have.


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## HuffPuppy (Apr 7, 2011)

C'mon fellas, let's not let this turn into a disrespectful flame war like every other freaking thread on RIU. I've never seen so many aggressive smokers...

One thing to keep in mind... there is very little more personal than a man's faith and religion. We're not talking politics here, we're talking basic tenets of a man's belief system. So let's keep that in mind when we are "discussing". Peace.


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## Windsblow (Apr 7, 2011)

HuffPuppy said:


> C'mon fellas, let's not let this turn into a disrespectful flame war like every other freaking thread on RIU. I've never seen so many aggressive smokers...
> 
> One thing to keep in mind... there is very little more personal than a man's faith and religion. We're not talking politics here, we're talking basic tenets of a man's belief system. So let's keep that in mind when we are "discussing". Peace.


I second that.


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## Carthoris (Apr 7, 2011)

Slojo69 said:


> wow how did i not see this thread lol. There is SOO much here that I wanted to respond to, but by the time I finished it would have been a 10 book series lol. Anyways, from a biblical stand point, free will was given to humans so that they could choose to follow god when they had the option of not following him. That is how he made adam and eve. Now what good is free will if they didn't have an option to mess up? There's where the tree of life came in. Now, Cathoris mentioned that god knew they would sin against him. Not true, he knew that there was the POSSIBILTY of it and what would happen IF they did. I knows what the outcome will be of every situation out there because in the end, He holds our fates in his hand. This is of course you believe in the bible and god. This is the readers Digest of what happened and why we were created with free will. Adam and Eve sinned and therefore spread it to us. Time went on and we needed an example to follow, a way out basically because humans were heading in the same direction as they were before the flood. So instead of wiping out the earth again, he sent his son, who was willing to sacrifice himself for us. Now, it says he is a god exacting exclusive devotion, therefore, we are to use this free will to follow in Jesus footsteps as best we can. Now, After all this is said and done, all this war, pestilence, poverty etc etc, he says we will be rewarded with everlasting life and the earth will be restored to what it was originally intended for, a paradise. So that's basically the pay off, free will = Choose to do whats right in this world of wickedness and temptation, get rewarded with everlasting life in a paradise.
> 
> Now I've also seen evolution thrown into this. Evolution had been proven yes, but we have evolved from already living and existing things. If evolution is the way things happened rather than creation? How did it start? there still is NO way to prove either side of this debate, none! I don't care how you think you can carbon date something or microscopically analyze something. If the earth is as old as scientists say, then how the hell can we know where we came from by a buncha bones in the earth that have been there for billions and billions of years? Now on the flip side, the bible says god created man from dust ... Iono how the hell he did that and niether does anyone else. The bottum line to all of this is evolution and genetics mean nothing when it comes to the topic of free will. We can choose to do WHATEVER we want within the laws of physics. Even beyond some of those laws lol. We can shoot someone in the face, we can drive home drunk, we can say "Fuck god" etc etc.
> 
> Now personally i was brought up studying the bible very thoroughly and i mean VERY thoroughly. But now that I'm a grown ass man and I can see the world for myself. I just don't give a crap anymore. Religion is the most retarded thing there is out there. In my studies I can gaurantee that the bible is not to be interpreted the way these guys make it out to be. So use that free will man, study shit for yerself and make yer own mind as to why we are here and what we are to do with this life we have.


You said that God didn't know what we would do when he made us. If he didn't, then he isn't all knowing and thus isn't omniscient. That was the whole point in my post. I am not saying that is how it is for a fact, I was just trying to get an idea of what people believe in regards to this. Free will and an omniscient creator cannot really exist in a rational/logical universe. I really wanted to know if anyone had any insight into it. Evolution has little to nothing to do with the opening post.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 7, 2011)

Silky Shagsalot said:


> "is" that mediator.


My past tense referred to the events unfolding during the conflict in Heaven. Careful of that gnat. You might choke on it.


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## Windsblow (Apr 7, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> You said that God didn't know what we would do when he made us. If he didn't, then he isn't all knowing and thus isn't omniscient. That was the whole point in my post. I am not saying that is how it is for a fact, I was just trying to get an idea of what people believe in regards to this. Free will and an omniscient creator cannot really exist in a rational/logical universe. I really wanted to know if anyone had any insight into it. Evolution has little to nothing to do with the opening post.


Well...... I think in order for us to exist here and now everything ( time, space, matter ) must exist exactly as it is. Any change to this and we cease to exist as we are now, so God cannot change or mettle with any of the variables otherwise he destroys his creation.

God knows everything because everything is happening now. Past, Present and Future are running parallel and God can see everything at once. For example, since time is really just a human concept, if I died and went to the place we go to, I'll call it heaven. I will not wait for the next fifty years waiting for my wife to come meet after she dies, she will already be there. In reality she has already died and God can see her both up there and down here because time is running parallel. This is my theory.


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## colocowboy (Apr 7, 2011)

iNVESTIGATE said:


> blah blah blah blurpty blurp!
> 
> 
> 
> lol "God" is an idea. Created in the minds of primitive people thousands upon thousands of years ago when we had no real idea of what is what and desperately wanted an easy explanation. Outdated and nonsensical. Freewill is alive. Every action has a reaction. Be respectful to ACTUAL living people and reciprocate those feelings in social-life while we still and only have this ONE life. *Fuck god*.


I would respectfully disagree, 
consider for a moment that what you perceive as "God", is as you say an idea or notion given to you by the consciousness of another individual. However this notion was expressed in the most empathetic means possible, personification. Now filter your perception of the "God" through the lens that is not of personage, abstract that what you understand as a human. You can perceive this working through people and inside of us because as you say it is "us". It is all things then, now, and to be all at the same time! It is the beginning and the end, of which infinite wisdom is defined. It is the very tenderness that moves you at the point of your origin that is the sense of your strength, love, compassion, hope, fear, dispair, and triumph. At the moment you recognize, when you see it before you like a mirror with a fire in your eyes. In it's infinite simplicity all covered in misleading, misinterpreted, over complicated, misspoken truth, it still tells why. In the same sentence you both condemned and supported and justified this view, should you choose to perceive it that way.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 7, 2011)

I think the most intriguing aspect of free agency is a certain doctrine that advocates pre-existence. That we were the hosts of heaven that shouted for joy when the plan of salvation was introduced and we fought on the side of God and helped throw down the Adversary and his followers. This is called "Keeping our First Estate". That's why we have demons today that torment us. They hate us for what we've done to them. Now this is not mainstream doctrine. It comes from particular sects. 



> Man was also in the a beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.





> Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee....


Fascinating stuff.


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## Windsblow (Apr 7, 2011)

Carne Seca said:


> I think the most intriguing aspect of free agency is a certain doctrine that advocates pre-existence. That we were the hosts of heaven that shouted for joy when the plan of salvation was introduced and we fought on the side of God and helped throw down the Adversary and his followers. This is called "Keeping our First Estate". That's why we have demons today that torment us. They hate us for what we've done to them. Now this is not mainstream doctrine. It comes from particular sects.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I was taught that growing up Mormon.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 7, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I was taught that growing up Mormon.


Me too.


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## colocowboy (Apr 7, 2011)

I grew up in a predominately Mormon area, no offense but if a person doesn't start questioning things after hearing that line then they probably wont ever. lol
So you guys like that show Big Love


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## Windsblow (Apr 7, 2011)

colocowboy said:


> I grew up in a predominately Mormon area, no offense but if a person doesn't start questioning things after hearing that line then they probably wont ever. lol
> So you guys like that show Big Love


What do you mean "line""

Nope, doesn't really have anything to do with Mormonism.


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## colocowboy (Apr 7, 2011)

No I really meant, did you like that show? I thought is was really good and it did highlight somethings that I know to be true, many more that I don't care to elaborate. I wasn't being dodgy, that sort of came out wrong. 

I mean, there is DNA evidence that disproves Joseph Smith's doctrine of lineage and the "Celestial Kingdom"...... really? Don't get me wrong, in terms of benefit of religion to it's participants Mormons are fulfilling the purpose of organized religion with more positive zeal than many others. I am just saying that the story is subject, take that as you will. I think the concept of God, Heaven, Hell is probably more simple and intimate that people would like to believe. There is a lot of credibility to the thought that abstracting our selves from our inevitable reality is silly and just a means for a fragile intellect to find rest alone in the cold dark night.


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## Nitegazer (Apr 7, 2011)

I think a lot of the incompatibility many of the posters see here between an omnipotent God and free will can be eased a bit if God is not confined to being a singular entity. Making God an entity creates many apparent paradoxes: Who made God, Could God create a rock that he couldn't lift, etc. It is sometimes helpful to consider the possibility that God is the all, the great mystery, that which encompasses what we cannot know-- for you fans of science out there, consider God to be Space-Time for a moment.

As Snow Crash touched on, in a relativistic universe, we are all fixed in space-time. So, according to Einstein, your death already _is_-- the time and circumstance for it fixed. That does not preclude free will, because free will is the process of the present that will carry you to that death. If I read a book, the characters may be acting with free will on every page, but it doesn't change what is written on the last page.


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## Windsblow (Apr 7, 2011)

"I mean, there is DNA evidence that disproves Joseph Smith's doctrine of lineage and the "Celestial Kingdom". 

I don't even know what means.


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## colocowboy (Apr 7, 2011)

I like that explanation, I perceive it such that all things will, can and have. It is your choice to be who/where/what/why/how your are for what ever reason your stuck on it. Millions of points of consciousness either freely willing or willing freely, endlessly circling the nucleus that binds us all.


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## colocowboy (Apr 7, 2011)

The Native Americans aren't decedents of Israel and you probably aren't getting your own planet or whatever. lol


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## Windsblow (Apr 7, 2011)

How is there proof that you don't get your own planet? I mean maybe the DNA thing can be debated but how could you prove anything about the after life?


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## Carne Seca (Apr 7, 2011)

colocowboy said:


> I grew up in a predominately Mormon area, no offense but if a person doesn't start questioning things after hearing that line then they probably wont ever. lol
> So you guys like that show Big Love


This is a discussion about free agency not Mormonism. I'm giving a perspective that I'm familiar with. If you want to bash Mormons then please start another thread. Thanks!


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## Carne Seca (Apr 7, 2011)

colocowboy said:


> The Native Americans aren't decedents of Israel and you probably aren't getting your own planet or whatever. lol


I don't know about that. My mom is pretty damn good with Jewish guilt.


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## colocowboy (Apr 7, 2011)

Again, I am not bashing them at all. I respect and love my Mormon brothers! I also love my Satanist, Atheist, Christian Scientists, Jewish, Christian, Islamic, Buddhist, Hindu, Shamanistic or what ever cut my fellow man is cut from. 

I am saying that conceive that all our free will is sort of bottled, all things living simultaneous existence throughout space-time. Infinite points of consciousness enacting every conceivable choice simultaneously, constantly circling their creation. Choosing to be dissonant to the harmony or resonant to the harmony.


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## colocowboy (Apr 7, 2011)

What if this is your heaven, your hell! What if every time you die you awake, either renewed by your journey of enlightenment or disjointed by a dissonant self effacing psychosis.


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## Brazko (Apr 8, 2011)

For all the Quantum World Enthusiast's, I would suggest looking up "quantum field theory". Too much to explain here and too confusing to cram, but it basically shows and explain how a photon can interact with a particle and it's antiparticle in a past and future event. Even demostrating how the future event as charted on a space-time diagram could have occured first. It really all goes back to the place of observation in space as seeing the event occur. However, this may lead to the point of no inherent freedom of choice or will, as everything that will take place has already done so as confined within this universe and yet we cannot conclude exactly what encompasses those confinements... Free Will... 


"In space-time, everything which for each of us constitutes the past, the present, and the future is given en bloc..... Each observer, as his time passes, discovers, so to speak, new slices of space-time which appear to him as successive aspects of the material world, though in reality the ensemble of events constituting space-time exists prior to his knowledge of them."

Louis De Broglie


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## ESR360 (Apr 9, 2011)

What's more depressing? Knowing that we'll never know the right answer, or that we will constantly be searching for it?


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## Windsblow (Apr 9, 2011)

ESR360 said:


> What's more depressing? Knowing that we'll never know the right answer, or that we will constantly be searching for it?


 Nothing is depressing about either of them. The search, regardless of whether or not you find, is the whole purpose of life.


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## Beagle (Apr 9, 2011)

Free Will = Choice 
Even if God knows what choice your going to make, it's still your choice.


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## mindphuk (Apr 9, 2011)

Beagle said:


> Free Will = Choice
> Even if God knows what choice your going to make, it's still your choice.


 If anyone, god, time traveler or seer, knows what choice you will make then nothing you do will allow you to make a different choice, otherwise that makes the possibility that they could be wrong and for a perfect god, he can never be wrong. The fact that you cannot make another choice prior to making it makes it predetermined.


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## Beagle (Apr 9, 2011)

God doesn't make choices for you. God May know that you will choose to drink milk at dinner instead of beer. Your the one who chose to drink milk, not God. If you were to travel back in time and tell yourself to drink the beer, you could still choose to drink milk. Time travel would probably bring alternate realities/universes in to the fold. Let's all keep in mind that time perceived by humans is not necessarily how time exists.


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## Snow Crash (Apr 9, 2011)

A free choice, to be truly free, cannot be predetermined or based in reason.

Because you have the choice of milk or beer, you have a predisposition to choose one or the other. Maybe you are lactose intolerant, had a terrible day, and the other series of events which happen in your life which are out of your control all add up to make the choice for you.

Every experience, the conglomeration of time and life, they lead you to places. Pre-determined places. Where you will then feel the illusion that your choice is in fact free. Yes, there is "choice" but the choice you make is never free of causality.

Free will is an unfortunate illusion found in the knowledge of self.


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## Beagle (Apr 9, 2011)

I wouldn't say they make the choice for you, but rather they make it easier to choose.


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## Snow Crash (Apr 9, 2011)

What does the choosing?A brain. 
And what is a brain? A network of memories constructed on a genetic blueprint. 
What is it made of? To be specific, atoms. To be more specific. Energy.

That's the point. We are made of energy. Causal, and predetermined to flow in a direction.

Thoughts, memories, reasons, choices. All of them occur in a causal system. 
For there to be choice, there must be a chooser, and this "chooser" must exist outside of the current conceptual understanding of both a causal and/or probabilistic universe. 

This is known as the "Soul Argument" and there is no argument to be made. If you simply believe, have faith in, a non-corporeal decider outside of the constricts of the universe. Completely unquantifiable. I cannot argue against things that very literally... Don't exist. Existentialism is a very slippery slope in the end.



> University of Texas: Austin philosophy professor David Sosa
> 
> In a way, in our contemporary world view, it's easy to think that science has come to take the place of God. But some philosophical problems remain as troubling as ever. Take the problem of free will. This problem has been around for a long time, since before Aristotle in 350 B.C. St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas, these guys all worried about how we can be free if God already knows in advance everything you're gonna do. Nowadays we know that the world operates according to some fundamental physical laws, and these laws govern the behavior of every object in the world. Now, these laws, because they're so trustworthy, they enable incredible technological achievements. But look at yourself. We're just physical systems too, right? We're just complex arrangements of carbon molecules. We're mostly water, and our behavior isn't gonna be an exception to these basic physical laws. So it starts to look like whether its God setting things up in advance and knowing everything you're gonna do or whether it's these basic physical laws governing everything, there's not a lot of room left for freedom.
> 
> ...


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## Beagle (Apr 9, 2011)

Does the brain do the choosing, or does the mind?

Is that a quote from "Waking Life"?


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## Snow Crash (Apr 9, 2011)

Beagle said:


> Does the brain do the choosing, or does the mind?
> 
> Is that a quote from "Waking Life"?


Dualism is fallible and yes, that specific quote from David Sosa was used in Waking Life.

The mind is the brain and the brain is the mind.

In much the same way space is time and time is space.

Mind-Brain.
Space-Time.

They are mutually inclusive.


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## Brazko (Apr 9, 2011)

* 

As I become Wiser, Knowledgeable, and most of all "Aware" of my surroundings, a universe that I didn't know becomes evident to me. I mean as a child certain things I knew, but they had no distinctive acknowledged impact I considered on my life, so in all respect they very much as well didn't exist to me. And this carries on to this day, however, I'm Aware of so much more. I'm able to discern the nature of events and there meaning knowing the cause and the resulting effect by simply being more conscious of my surroundings and the events that are occuring. While the next person may be clueless to their actions and to the concluding events to follow which are inevitable to happen. What I'm saying some may interpet as Karma which I admit it does sound like pretty much but not quite like....I think. But I'll say this anyway that the way you choose to live, exist, and interact, a predetermined pattern can be conceived by those events/actions. Yes, I am going somewhere with this.

Now, when we look at the sub-atomic world we can construct the positions as to where we will find particles according to a certain pattern of existence. Those certain patterns are indicative of a certain level energy state that particle is at. When excited it displays a certain pattern and we will only find a particle with that particular energy state within that pattern and vice versa and so on. And if that is understood, also understand that there is only a set number of patterns that we know exist. 

* Now, where I was going. Is it possible the events that are unfolding to us are predetermined, but the choice of choosing to live/exist at a certain level of awareness left up to us? Making the decision of how we exist our choice, but yet the pattern is always predetermined or for better words, SeT.....Free Will 


And Yes I'm Puffing that GooD Shitt..


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## Beagle (Apr 9, 2011)

I like to think of the brain as the controls on an airplane and the mind as the pilot. But that's just me.


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## Carthoris (Apr 9, 2011)

Beagle said:


> God doesn't make choices for you. God May know that you will choose to drink milk at dinner instead of beer. Your the one who chose to drink milk, not God. If you were to travel back in time and tell yourself to drink the beer, you could still choose to drink milk. Time travel would probably bring alternate realities/universes in to the fold. Let's all keep in mind that time perceived by humans is not necessarily how time exists.


You sidestepped the whole point. God knows you will drink milk, and knew it before he created mankind. He knew that if he made mankind the way he did you would be drinking milk for dinner. Therefor he made the mankind the way it was with the intention of you drinking milk for dinner and you really have no choice to the contrary. He could of changed how he created mankind so that you would drink beer, but that isn't a choice, that is him changing what we are doing.

If I make a brick out of concrete, give it free will, and throw it in water. It sinks, I knew it would sink because I made it and I knew how it would react. If I make it out of foam and throw it in there, it will float. The brick has no free will, it just does what it was made to do. We are pretty much as complicated as a brick to an omniscient being. He knew 100% every choice we would make if he made us the way we did. That is what being omniscient means.


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## Windsblow (Apr 9, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> You sidestepped the whole point. God knows you will drink milk, and knew it before he created mankind. He knew that if he made mankind the way he did you would be drinking milk for dinner. Therefor he made the mankind the way it was with the intention of you drinking milk for dinner and you really have no choice to the contrary. He could of changed how he created mankind so that you would drink beer, but that isn't a choice, that is him changing what we are doing.
> 
> If I make a brick out of concrete, give it free will, and throw it in water. It sinks, I knew it would sink because I made it and I knew how it would react. If I make it out of foam and throw it in there, it will float. The brick has no free will, it just does what it was made to do. We are pretty much as complicated as a brick to an omniscient being. He knew 100% every choice we would make if he made us the way we did. That is what being omniscient means.


Who's to say he's omniscient? Why does he have to be all knowing? We understand how plants grow but no scientist can predict the pattern a vine will grow while climming a trellice? I can create things from scratch, like bread, understand the chemical processes but not know exactly how things will turn out. The concept of an omniscient being is a creation of the human mind. I don't believe GOD must be all knowing to be GOD.


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## Carthoris (Apr 9, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> Who's to say he's omniscient? Why does he have to be all knowing? We understand how plants grow but no scientist can predict the pattern a vine will grow while climming a trellice? I can create things from scratch, like bread, understand the chemical processes but not know exactly how things will turn out. The concept of an omniscient being is a creation of the human mind. I don't believe GOD must be all knowing to be GOD.


It was simply in reference to Christianity, Muslim, and Jewish faith. If you believe in something else, then your beliefs aren't up for question in this post.


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## Windsblow (Apr 9, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> It was simply in reference to Christianity, Muslim, and Jewish faith. If you believe in something else, then your beliefs aren't up for question in this post.


I am not challenging you. Sorry if it seemed like that. I was trying to be cool and butt into the conversation.
But I am a Christian and I don't think the GOD of Abraham has to be all knowing like most Christians want him to be.


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## Carthoris (Apr 9, 2011)

Windsblow said:


> I am not challenging you. Sorry if it seemed like that. I was trying to be cool and butt into the conversation.
> But I am a Christian and I don't think the GOD of Abraham has to be all knowing like most Christians want him to be.


It's cool. Doesn't the bible say he is all knowing? Without the bible how would we know God? If you aren't to trust the bible/torah/koran then what do you trust in? How can you be a christian and not believe in the bible? The bible is really all we know of Christ's word.


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## Windsblow (Apr 9, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> It's cool. Doesn't the bible say he is all knowing? Without the bible how would we know God? If you aren't to trust the bible/torah/koran then what do you trust in? How can you be a christian and not believe in the bible? The bible is really all we know of Christ's word.


That is a very long and complex theologic discussion I would love to get into, but I will just say, I don't believe everything men write is gospel.


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## Beagle (Apr 9, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> You sidestepped the whole point. God knows you will drink milk, and knew it before he created mankind. He knew that if he made mankind the way he did you would be drinking milk for dinner. Therefor he made the mankind the way it was with the intention of you drinking milk for dinner and you really have no choice to the contrary. He could of changed how he created mankind so that you would drink beer, but that isn't a choice, that is him changing what we are doing.
> 
> If I make a brick out of concrete, give it free will, and throw it in water. It sinks, I knew it would sink because I made it and I knew how it would react. If I make it out of foam and throw it in there, it will float. The brick has no free will, it just does what it was made to do. We are pretty much as complicated as a brick to an omniscient being. He knew 100% every choice we would make if he made us the way we did. That is what being omniscient means.


That was kind of my first point. Free will is choice. Even if God knows what choice your going to make(Destiny), you still make the choice and made the choices that lead up to that choice. At least that is what I believe.


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## Snow Crash (Apr 9, 2011)

Beagle said:


> That was kind of my first point. Free will is choice. Even if God knows what choice your going to make(Destiny), you still make the choice and made the choices that lead up to that choice. At least that is what I believe.


You make the choice to drink milk as much as the brick makes the choice to sink.

There is no choice. There is an illusion of choice.

Choice is not free will, because choices can be made "unfreely." Like Sophie's Choice.

Free-will and choice are mutually exclusive. You can have free-will with no choices to make, and simply "be" free. You can make choices based on causality and reason, without free-will.

As such, one is not the other.

There are many, many, fallacies with your logic Beagle.
There is no "pilot" only a plane filled with things that exist. The "mind" is not metaphysical.

The only place I think that a person can find footing when arguing for Free-will is when talking about photon interference and multi-universe theory. In this framework we actually make each choice. I say yes in one universe, and at that moment of decision an alternate version of myself is created (added to an infinite multi-verse). The alternate version of myself makes the other choice. In this manner we make both choices, in a similar fashion to how a photon can interfere with itself.

I would entertain discussion on this topic. 

The current discussion about a pre-determined choice being a "free" choice is absolutely ridiculous. You might as well just come out and say what you really mean:
"Because I said so."


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## Beagle (Apr 10, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> There are many, many, fallacies with your logic Beagle.
> There is no "pilot" only a plane filled with things that exist. The "mind" is not metaphysical.


You state this as fact, though there's a few different schools of thought to this.


Snow Crash said:


> The only place I think that a person can find footing when arguing for Free-will is when talking about photon interference and multi-universe theory. In this framework we actually make each choice. I say yes in one universe, and at that moment of decision an alternate version of myself is created (added to an infinite multi-verse). The alternate version of myself makes the other choice.


Are you saying in these alternate universes, the brick won't make the choice to sink? 

Wouldn't an all knowing God know every choice your going to make in these alternate universes?


Snow Crash said:


> The current discussion about a pre-determined choice being a "free" choice is absolutely ridiculous. You might as well just come out and say what you really mean:
> "Because I said so."


Thank you for insulting my beliefs.


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## Snow Crash (Apr 10, 2011)

Beagle said:


> Are you saying in these alternate universes, the brick won't make the choice to sink?
> 
> Wouldn't an all knowing God know every choice your going to make in these alternate universes?Thank you for insulting my beliefs.


1. Yes. In an alternate universe the brick is actually less dense than the water, or it holds a high volume of low density gas. For whatever reason every time you flip a coin and get heads in a parallel universe the coin comes up tails.

2. Yes. An all knowing God would be aware that at every choice there are multiple possibilities and that each of these possibilities occurs parallel to one another. As do you and I. As much as the result of the choice is predetermined the opportunity to make the choice in the first place is also predetermined.

3. Beliefs cannot be insulted. A person can be or feel insulted because of their beliefs. In this case, you understand that your beliefs are illogical (dualism and existentialism are not accurate philosophies) and as a result of your self coming to acknowledgement of this truth you feel insulted. This was not my intent, but seeing the truth when it comes to these schools of thought can be a very difficult process. I at first resisted the concepts presented to me in the Philosophy of Mind course I took at Cabrillo College with Claudia Close in Santa Cruz, CA. But over time, and as I took other courses like Eastern Philosophy and 19th century Thought I began to accept the truth.

We observe. This is certain. What does the observing, and the choosing, and the understanding... If it is causal... can never be truly free. When you bring the soul and God into the equation then this is a faith based argument and simply "is because I say it is. I feel it and I know it." The problem is we are intrinsically stuck inside our selves and we cannot know for certain if our feelings are "from beyond" or if they are simply the eletcro-chemical processes which are determined by rules and adhere to strictures occurring in the mind.


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## Carthoris (Apr 10, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> You make the choice to drink milk as much as the brick makes the choice to sink.
> 
> There is no choice. There is an illusion of choice.
> 
> ...


Does an infinite multi-verse preclude free will also? Everything is happening, will happen, and has happened. That is sort of the definition of infinity isn't it? I'm not sure time exists itself. Wouldn't everything already exist at one time and thus nothing is actually happening or changing at all and no free will is possible because everything is already set at once? I should of taken philosophy in school, it is definitely a hard concept to grasp. Anyone have insight as to this?


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## Snow Crash (Apr 10, 2011)

There are some theories on the multi-verse. 

In many definitions the number of parallel universes is unlimited, while in some quantum interpretations there is a limit despite being vast. Then in some theories there are only a few universes parallel to us, in which things bounce into and out of.

In these systems, where there are only a few universes, it is like one reality stacked on top of another. Like pieces of paper, or strings on a harp. The concept is that the energy in our reality is a kind of vibration of the multi-dimensional strings of space-time. The kind of frequency a string vibrates at determines the particle it represents, from quarks to electrons. Our reality is "humming" like a plucked string on a guitar because at a point about 14 to 16 billion years ago the two realities collided for a very brief moment. The collision caused a reverberation in both universes. So it would be that on one side of us is a completely opposite-verse. The rules, universal constants like the mass of sub-atomic particles, would be very different and it could be extremely unlike our own universe. Then to the other side of us is an utterly empty universe. 

There are many interpretations of the multi-verse theory and they are not all infinite. Yet, despite the quantity of realities this doesn't make free-will or choice any more free. Whichever concept you subscribe to still leaves the undeniable truth that our perception of one event occurring before or after another is a human condition. The omniscient observer sees the "pluck" of the string as a single event rather than a series, and we are simply caught up in the swirling energy of the universe.

When you start to see just how small we are, how short a period of time we have existed, and to think we are somehow more special than we already are... I dunno... I don't need a God to endow me with his image to feel both important and minuscule in the Great Show. Trying to understand what existence is, where it rises from, and why. What we are made of, and what makes it up, and how I can influence my perception of the future before returning to the energy cycle... This is the path I find that, at some point, the deeper I look down it... There must be a God to place the universes in motion. Why should anything exist at all?

I feel lucky and blessed just to have an opportunity to experience it. If it is destiny... Then I am okay with accepting that and trying to enjoy the humor and beauty that this short life will be.


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## Carthoris (Apr 10, 2011)

Beagle said:


> That was kind of my first point. Free will is choice. Even if God knows what choice your going to make(Destiny), you still make the choice and made the choices that lead up to that choice. At least that is what I believe.


What was your first point, cause my post didn't have anything close to what you just said.


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## Beagle (Apr 10, 2011)

I think my point was, God exists past, present, future. God knows that I chose to drink the milk because from a future perspective, I already have. 

Sorry, I'm having trouble putting this into words.
This is just what I believe even if you declare it's ridiculous.


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## Carthoris (Apr 10, 2011)

Beagle said:


> I think my point was, God exists past, present, future. God knows that I chose to drink the milk because from a future perspective, I already have.
> 
> Sorry, I'm having trouble putting this into words.
> This is just what I believe even if you declare it's ridiculous.


What you just said is the reason why I say free will cannot exist with omniscience. How can our creator create us and not know exactly what we will do and thus intended us to do because he made us that way.


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## Beagle (Apr 10, 2011)

If God gave us free will, which in my belief is choice, then he/she/it intended us to make decisions for ourselves. In my opinion, God knows what choices we will make in sort of the way you look at the choices you've already made in the past...from a future perspective.


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## Carne Seca (Apr 10, 2011)

Beagle said:


> If God gave us free will, which in my belief is choice, then he/she/it intended us to make decisions for ourselves. In my opinion, God knows what choices we will make in sort of the way you look at the choices you've already made in the past...from a future perspective.


That's a very Mormon perspective.


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## Slojo69 (Apr 11, 2011)

Carthoris said:


> You said that God didn't know what we would do when he made us. If he didn't, then he isn't all knowing and thus isn't omniscient. That was the whole point in my post. I am not saying that is how it is for a fact, I was just trying to get an idea of what people believe in regards to this. Free will and an omniscient creator cannot really exist in a rational/logical universe. I really wanted to know if anyone had any insight into it. Evolution has little to nothing to do with the opening post.


Sorry for the late response. But god knew EVERY outcome of EVERY decision that humans would make, according to the bible. All knowing and All powerful doesn't mean he knew exactly how things would play out. He knew what would happen if they disobeyed. It's like a master tactician reading the battlefield. He knows what will happen if the enemy atacks from the west and if they attack from the east. Does he know which way they will attack? No. Does he know what to do when the enemy makes their move? Most Definetely. The bible says that god began to regret making men Gen 6:6. Therefore, when you are talking about all knowing in your sense, the regret wouldn't make sense. Hope that clears up a few things


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## mindphuk (Apr 11, 2011)

Slojo69 said:


> Sorry for the late response. But god knew EVERY outcome of EVERY decision that humans would make, according to the bible. All knowing and All powerful doesn't mean he knew exactly how things would play out. He knew what would happen if they disobeyed. It's like a master tactician reading the battlefield. He knows what will happen if the enemy atacks from the west and if they attack from the east. Does he know which way they will attack? No. Does he know what to do when the enemy makes their move? Most Definetely. The bible says that god began to regret making men Gen 6:6. Therefore, when you are talking about all knowing in your sense, the regret wouldn't make sense. Hope that clears up a few things


Regret doesn't make sense for a 'perfect' being either. It is in this way that the terms used in the bible to describe their deity are flawed in and of themselves.


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## Slojo69 (Apr 11, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Regret doesn't make sense for a 'perfect' being either. It is in this way that the terms used in the bible to describe their deity are flawed in and of themselves.


that's a whole different topic tho. Him being all knowing and him being a "perfect" being are 2 separate points. But to go along with your perfect comment. Having regret means nothing. You can be perfect, play a basketball game perfectly and because you beat the other team in a championship, one of the players killed himself for it and blamed you. You could then have regret for playing basketball all together. Does that mean you are not perfect?


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## iNVESTIGATE (Apr 13, 2011)

Carne Seca said:


> Apparently you have a very loose grasp of Free Agency.



Sorry, i guess i read the title '_*GOD*_ & FREE WILL' wrong? lol yah big silly-sally




Windsblow said:


> With all that hatred I would find it hard not to be an Antheist. Poor guy.


Yep, so darn tooten angry. Nice pic. btw, pffftt LOL!


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## HuffPuppy (Apr 15, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> There are some theories on the multi-verse.
> 
> In many definitions the number of parallel universes is unlimited, while in some quantum interpretations there is a limit despite being vast. Then in some theories there are only a few universes parallel to us, in which things bounce into and out of.
> 
> ...


Snow, I've been drawn to brane theory much more in the last few years. We should smoke sometime...


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## Snow Crash (Apr 15, 2011)

HuffPuppy said:


> Snow, I've been drawn to brane theory much more in the last few years. We should smoke sometime...


I'm usually a little too heady for people. 

Mushrooms work though 

I'll be somewhere between Portland, OR and Santa Cruz, CA. Anytime brother!


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## BrotherBuz (Apr 17, 2011)

Slojo69 said:


> All knowing and All powerful doesn't mean he knew exactly how things would play out.



For example, God says to Abraham, " Now I know you have faith in me . . . " 

Genesis 21:1-7; 22: 1-18.


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## Snow Crash (Apr 17, 2011)

So time passes for God?

For him to say "Now" then it would follow that "before" God was unsure, but after, God is now certain.

A purely human description of events and a display of the quintessential philosophical blunder that is the old testament. As we know, the perception of the flowing of time (past/present/future) is a by-product of the human condition. Space-Time simply is. God would/should "exist" outside of the human temporal perception and this excerpt, forgive my blasphemy, is an obvious farce for those who have the mind to consider the work to be a merging of fiction and non-fiction. One must be wise and open minded to find the true face of God which has been buried and hidden behind texts, rather than presented honestly within them.


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## Slojo69 (Apr 17, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> So time passes for God?
> 
> For him to say "Now" then it would follow that "before" God was unsure, but after, God is now certain.
> 
> A purely human description of events and a display of the quintessential philosophical blunder that is the old testament. As we know, the perception of the flowing of time (past/present/future) is a by-product of the human condition. Space-Time simply is. God would/should "exist" outside of the human temporal perception and this excerpt, forgive my blasphemy, is an obvious farce for those who have the mind to consider the work to be a merging of fiction and non-fiction. One must be wise and open minded to find the true face of God which has been buried and hidden behind texts, rather than presented honestly within them.


You are correct kinda. A day for god is like a thousand years for us. Genesis somewhere said it took 6 days of creation and on the 7th day he rested. Somewhere, may be genisis still, it explains how much time that would have been for us as humans. I forget the exact scripture and am too lazy to flip through the bible at the moment lol


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## Beagle (Apr 17, 2011)

Slojo69 said:


> You are correct kinda. A day for god is like a thousand years for us. Genesis somewhere said it took 6 days of creation and on the 7th day he rested. Somewhere, may be genisis still, it explains how much time that would have been for us as humans. I forget the exact scripture and am too lazy to flip through the bible at the moment lol


Are you referring to time dilation?


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## Slojo69 (Apr 17, 2011)

Beagle said:


> Are you referring to time dilation?


That would be a hell of a difference, 1000 years to his one day for that to be time dilation lol. No I was referring to the fact that the bible says time moves slower for god than it does for his creations.

EDIT: Which could also be proof that other dimentions DO infact exist ... Yep you've just been mind fucked lol!


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## BrotherBuz (Apr 18, 2011)

Snow Crash said:


> For him to say "Now" then it would follow that "before" God was unsure, but after, God is now certain.


Anyone, whos able to put the damn bong down . . . just for an hour, can readily understand that God has the ability to look into the future or not. After all, if he chose to know the final outcome of every event, that would be just boring. Don't you like to be surprised.


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