# High pressure sodium lights



## cgrabo (May 13, 2009)

Hey everyone, excuse me if this has been addressed already. I am wondering if their is a low cost substitute for a high pressure sodium light fixture? Is there any other type of light that would work? It seems every high pressure fixture I have found is $130+.


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## SunKissedBuds (May 13, 2009)

Compact Flourescents are great! Thats what i am currently running and they work phenomenol. 

for veg i use:
4 - 23watt(100watt equiv.) Daylight(6500K) spiral compact flourescent bulbs
3 - 23watt(100watt equiv.) Warm White(2700K) spiral compact flourescent bulbs

for flowering i use:
4 - 23watt(100 watt equiv.) Warm White(2700K) spiral compact flourescent bulbs
3 - 23watt(100watt equiv.) Daylight(6500K) spiral compact flourescent bulbs

for fixtures i just went to Home Depot and bought 14 clamp-on shop lamp fixtures that cost about $7 a piece. the warm white bulbs were $5 per each 2-pack at Home Depot. Got the Daylights at Walmart for about $5 per each 2-pack. hope that helps! and my result are great! cheap and very effective!


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## Kruzty (May 13, 2009)

Nothen works like a hps light.Ya be fine to veg with flo's but if ya want nice dank buds, then hps is the only way to go.


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## SunKissedBuds (May 13, 2009)

Kruzty said:


> Nothen works like a hps light.Ya be fine to veg with flo's but if ya want nice dank buds, then hps is the only way to go.


 
its true you will get much better yield using HPS but i have used flouro's for both cycles and they work wonderfully but nothing can replace a HPS or MH bulb. flouro's are still very effective due to the fact they dont really get hot so you can put them closer to your plants! HPS and MH bulbs get extremely hot so you have to keep them a good amount of distance away from the plants. where as flouro's i've placed 3 inches away from the plants with great results! but definitely hps or mh for a larger area!


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## smppro (May 13, 2009)

Yeah compact flos will grow the same quality bud as hps, you just can grow as much as easily. If you know how to grow and understand what a plant needs then you can get a very nice yield. You can also get a 150w hps for about $45 if you dont buy it from a grow shop, you can buy security lights that are the same thing, all you do is extend some wires.


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## cgrabo (May 13, 2009)

thanks a bunch for the input guys. not to mention how fast you guys replied haha. First time grower here just tryin to get it right!


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## SunKissedBuds (May 13, 2009)

post sum pics once you get a chance...


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## cgrabo (May 13, 2009)

SunKissedBuds said:


> post sum pics once you get a chance...


sure thing!


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## Roseman (May 13, 2009)

HID vs CFLS? Hmmmmmm

HPS definitely produces more denser buds, but, then you have to VENT the HEAT.
and CFLs are cheap.






42 watt average $10.00 each 

65 watts, = $19.99 average price ($16.95 now at Lowes and Home Depot)

85 Watt, average $29.00 each, can be found for $24.95 on Internet





105 watt average $34.95 to $38.99 each


Or Look for Clamp Reflectors and Bulbs together:













CFLs come in 15, 26, 42, 65, 85 and 105 watts and recently last year, even larger wattages. 
The 26s and smaller are not as efficient to me. 
26s to 85s do not put out any noticable heat unless oyu use a lot of them.. The 105s do put out some heat, but not as much as HID lights. 
I can touch and hold a burning 65 or 85 watt bulb.
The 42's are about $9 each.
65 watts are abut $24 each, 85s are $30 each, 105s are $39 to $42 each, average is $40 each for 105s. 
A CFL needs a reflector, like a hood. I like the $10 heavy duty clamp reflectors at Lowes, Home Depot or Walmart. They also offer a cheaper $8 reflector but it is smaller and flimsey.

With CFLs, you need the DUAL SPECTRUM, red and blue spectrums. That does not refer to the color of the bulb that you see. It refers to the kind of rays, like UVA or UVB, or the color temp, called kevins.
CFLS come in 2700 kevins, 3000, 4100, 5100, and 6500. 
2700k is for BLOOM OR FLOWERING , 6500k is the VEG Spectrum. The others are "MID" spectrums or in between. 
IF you sue the MID-range bulbs (4100) then also use the 6500 and 2700s.
In outdoors, the sun produces different rays in the spring (VEG Rays called Blue) and late summer for Bloom spectrum, the RED spectrum. (see more below)

CFLs are new on the scene, in 2006 the biggest made was 65 watts. When we talk about CFL watts, we are talking about the actually electricity used, NOT the equivalant. For example, a 15 watt CFL bulb puts out 60 watts. 

Spiral and Tube type CLFS emit LIGHT FROM THE SIDES, NOT THE ENDS OR TIPS.

YOU CAN GET SPIRAL CFLS (15, 26, 42, 65, 85) AND TUBE TYPE CFLS 105s.

*How much light is needed for growing?*
Depends on the size of plant you are trying to grow. I'll try to answer this "in general" instead of being specific to one size plant. Light seen and perceived with the human eye is measured in Lumens. There is *an ideal amount* of lumens for growing and a *minimum amount* of required lumens. The very minimum amount of light required for smaller sized plants grown is around 3000 lumens per square foot. Let me put emphasis on *"minimum amount"* of light. However, that's not 100% exactly accurate, since although you may have a 10,000 lumen light, the amount of light that reaches the plant varies with the distance between the light and plants, and the reflectivity of the grow area. The ideal amount is somewhere around 7000-10,000 lumens per square foot for average sized plants. As long as the plants do not show burn, as much light can be used as you want to use. (Note, the sun produces about 10,000 lumens per square foot, on a sunny mid summer day). 

*Determining lumens for your grow area:*
First determine the square footage of your area (example in a 4 foot by 4 foot area, there is 16 square feet, 2 by 2 feet is 4 Sq ft. ) If you have a 1000 Watt High Pressure Sodium Light Bulb, that produces approximately 107,000 lumens. Divide this by 16 (your square footage) 107,000 divided by 16 = 6687 lumens per square foot. So just divide the total amount of Lumens, by the total amount of square feet, and that's your lumens per square foot. 

*How far away from my plants do the lights go?*
The lights in your grow room should be as close as possible to the plants without burning them. There is no such thing as too much light, unless there is overly sufficient heat to dry out and burn the leaves. A good rule is to put your hand under the light, if its too hot for your hand, chances are that the plants will be too hot too, so move the light up until your hand feels more comfortable. For seedlings or sprouts, I keep them a little further away from the light, because they are very susceptible to burning and drying out, at these young stages. 

*How do I decide which lights to use?*
Efficiency is very important when choosing a type of light. The wattage is not the most important thing, different types of light produce different amounts of lumens per watt. For example, a 300 watt incandescent will produce about 5100 lumens. (not that you can grow with incandescent bulbs) While a 300 watt Metal Halide (just an example, they do not come in 300 watts), will produce 27,000 lumens. Obviously far more efficient for growing, while still using the same amount of electricity. 

*Approximate light production:*
Incandescents: 17 lumens/watt
Mercury vapor: 45-50 lumens/watt
Fluorescents: 60-70 lumens/watt
Metal halide: 90 lumens/watt
High pressure sodium: 107 lumens/watt


*Incandescent lights: *Incandescent bulbs are the most popular type of lights in the world. They may come advertised as incandescent, tungsten, quartz, halogen, or simply standard. The important thing about incandescent bulbs when it come to growing is simply this: they suck. Using incandescent bulbs to grow plants is like trying to flag down the Space Challenger with a burnt out match! You can do it, but it won't work. There are some incandescents which are sold as "grow lights." They usually have a blue coating and usually come in 60W and 120W sizes. While they may seem like a good choice to new growers, they are next to useless; they produce some light at a usable spectrum, but only have about a 5% efficiency and generate more heat than usable light. Most of us have these in our homes right now. Don't use them for growing, instead opt for a Compact Fluorescent, CFL, as a cheaper but more efficient alternative. 

*Fluorescent lights:* Fluorescents are far more useful than incandescents. They are efficient enough, and much less expensive than HID (High Intensity Discharge) lights. Compact fluorescent tubes, (commonly called CFLs) are popular with growers because of their good output to size ratio. Compared to standard 4 foot tubes, CFLs are smaller, more easily moved, and more can fit into a given small area. CFLs are good for small grows on a tight budget, and for novice growers, since they do not require any special sort of wiring or understanding of the necessary bulbs for a given fixture, and the small wattage ones (23, 42 and 65) are very widely available. Fluorescent lights come in many different Kelvin (spectrum or color) ratings; often the spectrums are labeled on packaging as being *'cool white' or 'warm white.'* *Cool white* is more blue, and is good for the vegetative stages of growth. The bulbs are ultra white. *Warm white* light is more reddish in spectrum, and is best for the flowering stage. The bulbs are almost cream colored. 

*Color rating *- Measured in Kelvin (K). The higher the number, the more bluish the light. 4000K-7000K is mostly on the blue side of the spectrum for Vegging or GROWING, while 3000K and under goes from a white spectrum, to a redder spectrum and is best for BLOOMING or FLOWERING. 


*High Intensity Discharge (HID) Lighting Systems: *

*Mercury Vapor (MV)*
Mercury vapor lights are not the most efficient light for growing. They are very bright, and relatively cheap. They do emit light at the wavelengths necessary to support your plants growth, but not nearly as good as a MH or HPS light. Much of the light emitted by MV lights is bluish-white. Street lighting is what most MV lighting is used for. 

*Metal Halide (MH)*
Metal halide lighting systems are optimal for use in the vegetative phase of growing. They emit mostly blue light, which encourages vigorous growth of foliage. They are very efficient, but can get rather expensive to start with; fluorescents may seem more appealing because of their lower price, and they are not much different when compared on a lumen-to-lumen cost level. These lights can be used through-out the grow, but leave a lot to be desired in the BLOOM stage. 

*High Pressure Sodium (HPS)*
High pressure sodium lights emit mostly orange, yellow, and red spectrum light, which is perfect for the flowering stage of the plants growth. They are (in my opinion) the most efficient type of light available for any application if you are not on a budget and can vent the grow area for heat. HPS lights can be used through-out the entire grow. They produce more dense and usually larger flowers or fruit than any other light. HPS lights are generally a little more expensive than MH systems of similar wattage. They are more commonly used by experienced commercial growers because of their ability to produce tighter denser flowers, higher lumen-output-per-watt, and will produce from start to finish. 

Just like everything else, available grow lights are evolving. Remember how the sun produces 10,000 lumens per square foot in the mid-summer. Well, today there are CFLs that can actually duplicate those lumens. If you can not grow under the sun, then bring the sun inside. Yes, you can have 20,000 lumens covering the entire grow space with the new 105 watt per bulb CFLs. Three of these bulbs in the proper reflector actually yields 20,000 lumens.






Low heat, energy efficient light bulbs for use with Stealth Hydro Dual Spectrum Lighting Systems. Available in blue (vegetative) and red (flowering) spectrums.
I like being able to move the CFLS around, and lower them down in between the plants, the clamp- reflectors are just $10 each.Lowes, Walmart, Home Depot:



















and get one of these extensions:





and if you want to add two lights to a reflector, you get a Y spliter.

This pic shows both COOL WHITE and WARM WHITE, or high and low kevin bulbs:






One of many mistakes I have made over the years, is I wish I had labeled or dated my bulbs.

I have some 65 and 85 watt bulbs, and they have seen 6 GROWS. I wish I knew how to distinguish them from the new ones.

I highly urge everyone to date-label your bulbs.


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## Roseman (May 13, 2009)

In the new Skunk Magazine there was a question in the "Ask Ed" section that just made my night last night when reading it...
The question was...

*Tiny Grow Space*

_I intend to grow a single cannabis plant in a space 1' x 2'. What light would you recommend? I was think of using four 30-watt compact fluorescent lamps. Will this be enough? Cost isn't an issue but I am deterred from getting a high pressure sodium [light] because of the amount of heat the bulb produces._
*Barry, Internet*

As you mentioned, you have several lighting systems to choose from, including compact fluorescents and high pressure sodium (HPS) lamps. Among HPS lamps you have a choice between a single 100-watt lamp which uses a total of about 120-watts and emits about 8,800 lumens(73 lumens per watt) or a 150-watt lamp, which uses about 180 watts and emits almost double that-15,800 lumens (87 lumens per watt).

A 42-watt compact fluorescent (CFL) emits about 2700 lumens(64 lumens per watt). Four CFLs use 168 watts and emit 10,800 lumens. Other size CFLs have a similar efficiency.

However, that is only part of the story. Plants use mostly red and blue light. Yellow and green light is of little use to them, so light that is emitted in these spectrums is wasted energy. Most of the light emitted by HPS lamps is in the yellow spectrum. Only a small amount of the emitted light is is in the orange or red spectrums, which plants use efficiently. Warm white fluorescents (2700 Kelvin) emit a greater portion in the red and orange sectors.
Although fluorescents produce only about 75% of the light per watt that the HPS does, the amount of light usable by the plant is equal or probably higher with the fluorescents. You may wish to experiment to see if adding a single cool white CFL to replace one warm white results in shorter, stouter stems and more vigorous growth. The reasoning is that warm whites don't emit much blue light, which the plants use for photosynthesis and to regulate their growth. The cool white bulb supplies the blue light.

My call for your unit would be to use several (three to five) CFLs with a total input of between 120-160 watts. Although the 150 watt HPS is a bit more efficient that the CFLs in total output, watt for watt the fluorescents provide as much useful light as the HPS lamp. Heat is another consideration. The HPS runs much hotter and emits more heat than the fluoescents. 

Make sure to use reflective material around the garden so that any light escaping the garden is reflected back to the plants. Any light that doesn't get to the plant leaves is wasted.


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## Dowd1 (May 13, 2009)

I dont like the compact floros.I tried them out for 1 month on a white demon seedling that i took out from 2-4'shop light floros (and was doing great) to under a 23 w (100w equivalent) compact florecent with the same light schedule and my plant started to look sickly.I went to home depot and purchased 2 2' florecent ballast and 2 plant/aquarium bulbs.I hooked it up and within 1 week it came almost all the way back.My other plants love it too.The bulb has a purple glow That contain both the red and blue spectrums of light. You do have to keep them close,I keep them about 3" away but my leaves are a deeper green and the overall plant looks better than when i had them under the 4' florecent shop lights.Depending on how big a space you need to light up you may need more.I only veg under the 2 foot grow/aquarium lights. I have a 400W hps that i flower under. But i am most positive the plant/aquarium lights will work better than compact floro
And if you want to avoid all the dumb shit save up and get the HPS. 130$ is not that much,my first hps hood and ballast cost me over 200$


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## Roseman (May 13, 2009)

I think 23 watt CFLs are like pissing in the wind.
I use 65s, 85s, and 105s, and look at my pics:

     
Thumbnails     

       

 


All with CFLs


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## mr.woodes (May 13, 2009)

What can you tell me about DWC with a 250W HPS? you said ask...so I gotta. I thought about using this method next time around.



Roseman said:


> I think 23 watt CFLs are like pissing in the wind.
> I use 65s, 85s, and 105s, and look at my pics:
> 
> 
> ...


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## Roseman (May 13, 2009)

mr.woodes said:


> What can you tell me about DWC with a 250W HPS? you said ask...so I gotta. I thought about using this method next time around.


 

I think you would be very happy growing with a DWC and 250 HPS..................IF you can VENT the HEAT or get a cooled HPS light. It is one of the easiest systems to DIY, easier than DRIP, Ebb and Flow, or Bubbleponics feeding. The only negative is you need a sprout with roots to get started with a plain DWC. With a DRIP or Bubbleponics , you can start seed in the system.

A DWC is simply water at least 8 inches deep, with an Aeration system, usually some Aquarium airstones blown by a simple aquarium airpump. The highly oxygen enriched water at the right temp prevents Root Rot. Hydroponics used to mean FLOWING WATER. Now we know it is the Air in the WATER, not the movement. A DWC can be a 5 gallon bucket, a storage tank, a small bucket with a lid, etc
You can add an outside of the tank DRIP system, that drips water to each grow cube in each grow cup, and do even better.
And better than that is a Bubbleponics system. Many growers see or hear the word BUBBLEPONICS and think of bubbley water in the tank. WRONG. A friend of mine, Martin Wiggett, actually has a patent- and has registered the word Bubbleponics.
Bubbleponics is a system of an under water, submersed water pump, that pumps bubbles (50-50 water and oxygen) to each grow cup, sort of trickles it, to feed the new baby sprout.












See how the tubes run to each cup?

What normally takes 7 to 8 months in soil or outdoors can be done in 12 to 13 weeks.....and get mature full sized plants.............or runts in 8 to 9 weeks.


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## Roseman (May 13, 2009)

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/166420-you-thinking-hydroponics-here-some.html

great DWC link


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## mr.woodes (May 13, 2009)

I have heard some bout the different ways and have been interested and I really think more and more I would like to do it. and Bubbleponics doesn't really sound like it would be much more to go that route than just a simple DWC. but you still use nutes right? not just water?


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## Roseman (May 13, 2009)

mr.woodes said:


> I have heard some bout the different ways and have been interested and I really think more and more I would like to do it. and Bubbleponics doesn't really sound like it would be much more to go that route than just a simple DWC. but you still use nutes right? not just water?


 
yes, you still feed them nutes.


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## KaliKitsune (May 13, 2009)

I'd like to input that my T5HO lamps pump 92 l/w, per tube, and will perform a tiny bit better than HPS and MH until you get OVER 250w. 300w and the HID lights pull ahead of T5HO lights l/w.


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## smppro (May 14, 2009)

Great info Roseman, i myself prefer the 42w cfls, i think that they are the most efficient. I think another important thing when using CFLs is the space they are in. I think that a tight box works best, this allows you to get plenty of reflection of the near by walls making the cfls much more effective. I have a cfls box that is 24"x18"x32", i have 4 42w cfls mounted at the top(parallel to the ground) Not only can i produce 3-4oz of dense bud but the bud on the botton gets nice and tight too without having to have the bulbs a couple inches away. Oh yeah i also have a 400w hps box so i know what i dense bud look like.


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## smppro (May 14, 2009)

mr.woodes said:


> I have heard some bout the different ways and have been interested and I really think more and more I would like to do it. and Bubbleponics doesn't really sound like it would be much more to go that route than just a simple DWC. but you still use nutes right? not just water?



DWC is diff the way to go if you dont have to worry about temps. If you have high temps then you are going to have high water temps, which means you will probably have to battle against root rot. It is easier for some people than other. If your water temp is below 70 then your in the clear. An alternative is the hempy bucket. They have pretty close to the same growth rate as dwc but no pumps or resorvoirs and less temp worries and PH worries. There is tons of info out there on them if you dont already know about them. I have done soil, drip, E&F, DWC, and this is my fav so far.


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## Roseman (May 14, 2009)

smppro said:


> Great info Roseman, i myself prefer the 42w cfls, i think that they are the most efficient. I think another important thing when using CFLs is the space they are in. I think that a tight box works best, this allows you to get plenty of reflection of the near by walls making the cfls much more effective. I have a cfls box that is 24"x18"x32", i have 4 42w cfls mounted at the top(parallel to the ground) Not only can i produce 3-4oz of dense bud but the bud on the botton gets nice and tight too without having to have the bulbs a couple inches away. Oh yeah i also have a 400w hps box so i know what i dense bud look like.


On the post a page back, Ed Rosenthal says he likes and prefers the 42 watt bulbs too.


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## KaliKitsune (May 14, 2009)

Oh, as a side note, I'd like to note that lumens don't physically add up like that. Were that the case a few CFLs would be brighter than the sun - don't we wish! You have to get into things like photon flux density and such to really determine the quality of the light you're using. 2700 lumens at two feet away from the lamp won't get any higher adding more lamps at the same height, the meter will still read 2700. At least with CFL you can just have them on individual lines and hang them where they're needed, so you can sustain a much larger plant just by putting a few bulbs around it.

Ed might be a little outdated in his ballast knowledge, however. If you get Energy Star rated stuff, it has to be 85% or better in efficiency, not the 70-80% that Ed's talking about. I've got 90% rated ballasts for my T5HO, so the 432w pulls 475 at the outlet. I've tested that with my kill-a-watt meter. My old 400w HPS uses 480 at the ballast, so that's more like 78% efficiency. But it's not Energy Star rated, so that would figure.


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## bobcatt (Aug 23, 2009)

I have a 7x7x8 room =49sft I am going to use a 1000 watt HPS light will that meet my needs?


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