# Dr. Bruce Bugbee method: NASA technique on Mars etc.



## Overgrowtho (Oct 26, 2020)

Hi, is anyone here working with Dr Bruce Bugbee's system/research from Uni of Utah? He specializes in Cannabis and advises NASA how to grow on Mars.

He advises to use 50% vermiculite and 50% peat moss for explosive growth (a bit of gypsum and dolomite added in only).

Of course this is a soil-less medium, *so I thought that means we need to use chemical nutrients that you would normally use with hydro, right?*

He suggests using 20-10-20 nutes with 1.2 EC.

Using his system and CO2, he says you can really "push" the plants with a lot of light.

I've tried it for a couple weeks (with some Earth Worm Castings mixed in (EWC is not his system!) as I couldn't find hydro nutes in time, where I am in Asia. I saw explosive growth and then they started to yellow, I guess due to lacking micro nutrients. So I moved them over to super soil and they are somewhat recovering but much slower. That first couple of weeks had explosive growth, so I'm excited about the idea of his research.

Finally, I've gotten some hydro nutes and I'm really keen to try this again.

*I was hoping that some people on here might have tried his system (or are using it now) or could advise about soil-less medium questions along the way in case of any issue I encounter? *

(Dr. Bugbee hasn't been responsive on email so far -- I'm sure he has a million other important things to do, like helping us colonize mars -- than answer my newb questions).


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 27, 2020)

Anyone? Anyone?


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## HydroKid239 (Oct 27, 2020)

Overgrowtho said:


> Hi, is anyone here working with Dr Bruce Bugbee's system/research from Uni of Utah? He specializes in Cannabis and advises NASA how to grow on Mars.
> 
> He advises to use 50% vermiculite and 50% peat moss for explosive growth (a bit of gypsum and dolomite added in only).
> 
> ...


I can only guess so. Those are soilless.. so feed and ph must follow accordingly. (Or I can only assume) No expert. Just reading a lot tonight.


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## HydroKid239 (Oct 27, 2020)

I've watched a couple of his vid's when I had the time.. unfortunately since they were 30-40+ min some well over an hour... I smoked while watching, and BAM.. memory gets hazy.


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 28, 2020)

Man you have to watch his videos like 2-3 times to grasp everything. And take notes. But I think it's well worth it. Not too many established universities are researching optimal cannabis cultivation in a scientific environment. This could be huge. Why not give it a try?


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## xtsho (Oct 28, 2020)

I'm sure that his methods work. However they are not for many growers. Vermiculite and peat will hold a ton of water unlike peat and perlite which dries out faster. Many people will have issues. Much of his stuff is for more advanced growers that already know what they're doing.


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 28, 2020)

Hi Xtsho,

I hear ya, its a bit risky to try this method perhaps. If using an air pot or smart pot I guess that would help with the ton of water holding. He doenst use them however (from what I could see in his videos). Anyways Im quite interested to try it I think -- might be very rewarding. 

I guess early-on it needs very little watering, and perhaps a small pot that will dry out fast. 

Until roots are super thirsty later.


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## curious2garden (Oct 28, 2020)

It's not so much that his growing methods are risky. It is the fact his light expertise doesn't necessarily generalize to plant husbandry. There are better substrates than what he is using, etc... That limitation doesn't detract from his knowledge about lighting.


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 28, 2020)

I thought the point was that he has scientifically researched many substrates and determined that this was the best solution.


curious2garden said:


> There are better substrates than what he is using


Please unpack?


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## JonCreighton (Oct 30, 2020)

iv done this method and i dont really understand why people are saying its hard or confusing... infact i find it the most simple technique if ur a beginner...
its like hes done all the work for you.... watering wise id say EC is the most important thing... his system of 1.3 in and 1.0 to 1.5 out is as simple as it gets.. samee nuits straight thru flushing 10- 20% runoff everytime... lift the pots to seee how much you should be watering... if ur runnoff is over 1.5 ur watering too much let the pot become lighter before u hit it w a feed... if ur below 1.0 ur letting it dry out too much and they arnt getting enough nuits... its a very simple method that everyone uses...
the 20-10-20 straight thru is fine and iv done this and the nuits are cheap price wise.. very cheap... but iv heard his lab talk abiout the plants not needing any more potassium durring flower.. now this guy isnt a weed connasiuer hes more into energy principals and all that.. and iv heard the lab talk about potassium being detrimental to the environment.. so its just my opinion hes pushing the potassium levels as low as they can go.. so i will add more potassium than he reccomends... i also noticed slightly leafier nugs going 20-10-20 stright thru so i ticked up the potassium a little next grow and it seemed to be back to normal.. but im not sure about this it could have been confiation bias or anything...

the soil mix isnt the easiest but it is my soil of choice just because i belive hes done the testing... if i rememeber off the top of my head i came to these conclusions

he says int he video you can exchange peat for something else in this mix but i wouldnt... even going to home depot for the peat did not work.. you have to find real peat from a supply or feed store... home depot peat isnt "real" peat and the ph is fucked up... so if oyu use cheap peat ur going to go thru this process of making the medium and ur ph is going to be way too high... if all you can find is cheap peat or coco i think ur going to have to adjust the ph when you feed..
vermniculite also good for retetion and packed w silica - so you wont have to add silica till maybe the end if ever... and raises the ph of the peat..
the lime will raise the soil ph.. if u can find dolemitic.. u wont need to add as much magnesium when feeding..
the gypsom will help w calcium so you wont need to add as much of that when feeding

you dont need to do all this stuff but u can se why hes doing it and make adjustments... for istance this mix is going to settle out to like a 6.5ph.. if u were to use cheap peat it would settle out to a ph of 8.0 lets say... so when u water ur going to need to lower the ph of the water to 6.0ish to balance that out...
this is kinda why i find this method simple... take the time to get ur soil correct and all u got to worry about is 1.3 in and 1.3 out....
i shiould say even if u add all the suppliments to the medium and go 20-10-20 ur still going to neeed to add calcium and magnesium at times...


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## JonCreighton (Oct 30, 2020)

curious2garden said:


> It's not so much that his growing methods are risky. It is the fact his light expertise doesn't necessarily generalize to plant husbandry. There are better substrates than what he is using, etc... That limitation doesn't detract from his knowledge about lighting.


this guy isnt a light manufacture or a physicist.. this is possibly the leading plant scientist in the country... what makes you think his expertise is in lighting only? in his video on grow lighting myths he mentions making a whole series on nutrients... and the systems they develop for nasa are total systems not just light oriented...


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 30, 2020)

Hi @JonCreighton , great to hear your report! Did you find that that it is correct, that you can really push plants with a lot of light using this method to get huge growth? How about a few pics?

Today I mixed up some pH 6.5 peat with the vermiculite. I accidentally added pert-lite too but I think that's fine anyways (right?) along with the gypsum and dolomite (it came in pebbles which I mashed into a fine grain). I tested the pH of the mix and it came to 7.

I'm trying this with a smart pot by the way.

So I guess if I water/feed with 5.5-6 that will be good right? I am just doing 1 plant in my lab to test it out. Where I live in Asia we dont have 20-10-20 hydro nutes but we have decent hydro from Australia that have all the macro and micro nutes.

Thank you so much for clarifying about the EC. I hadn't understood that yet -- very interesting to read your posts!!!


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## JonCreighton (Oct 30, 2020)

ph wise think of it as a combo of ur watering and ur meidum... and try to combine them to hit like 6.5 or whever u want i to land but its sa combo oif the two. if ur medium starts at 7.0 and ur constantly hitting it with 6.0 it will naturually start to lower over time but u get the point...

if u got bugbees medium or another miedium and ur clicking on all cyliinders then idk how much of a difference it makes ot be honest.. butttt i think staying clicking on all cylinders is easy with this mix... way easier than soil or coco if u ask me... most of your worries are in the mix already... all u got to worry about is watering at the correct time... EC seems ot have a direct corrolation to quality... iv done different PHs and different NPK combos and they honrestly donyt have that much of a difference.... but god dam u mess up ur EC and problems arise... so this method kinda builds in most factors and u just got to worry about keeping the EC in those pots at 1.3ish and thats the most important thing... thats why i say this is actually the easiest method... 

some pics.... bioth these are the bugbee mix... one is the greenhouse... i go outside wayyyyy later than most people and push them as hard as u can... i find better nug qaulity this way than just putting them outside for 4 months.... one is a pheno hunt i was pushing super hard... by hard im talking ppfd 1300-1500


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## JonCreighton (Oct 30, 2020)

if ur looking for explosive growth its kinda a different calcualtion... u have to keep that EC correct but the calculation i could do for yield is kinda likee...

photosythiesis = LIGHT x (CO2 x limiting factor)

the light drives everthing... the co2 is how u covert that light to yield...limiting factor is the envirmonemnt... the heat is how the co2 is uptaken basically the ehigher the better... the humidity drives where the heat can be set (VPD).... how high u can run the humnidity is based on disease and plant health....

thats thee equation to maximise if u want yield.... focus on that.... just make sure ur root zone is solid and stable... as i keep saying 1.3 in 1.3 out... root zone should be pretty easy... maximising that equation above is a little trickier...

ambient co2 1000 ppfd of light...... 1000(.4)= 400 net photosythis

enriched co2 clicking on all cyliders envirnment wise 1000ppfd of light..... 1000(.7)= 700 net photsytheis

hopefully ur picking up what im putting down i dont really know how to exlplain it quickly...


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 30, 2020)

Thanks again. Yes picking up. Very cool stuff. I will chew on that it sounds great!


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## Kassiopeija (Oct 30, 2020)

JonCreighton said:


> this guy isnt a light manufacture or a physicist.. this is possibly the leading plant scientist in the country... what makes you think his expertise is in lighting only? in his video on grow lighting myths he mentions making a whole series on nutrients... and the systems they develop for nasa are total systems not just light oriented...


You're right, but Anni has a point too - as vermiculite is just a different material than perlite, and both have different functions. Perlite gives aeration - and cannabis roots like a light soil where roots can "breath" (gas exchange). Who has ever drowned a seed in a glass of water because it did sprout over night? Or encountered root rot because the medium was "too heavy" in conjunction with excessive (too early + too often) waterings?

Bugbee's substrate is actually developed to work in a gravity-free or less-gravity zone than what we have here on earth. There, a substrate wouldn't compact much together - which cancels the need for perlite out. So he replaces it with vermiculite - to increase the access of roots for water. Vermiculite is also very special in that it doesn't allow for water to evaporate. Less gravity would actually cause swifter evaporation, as the water can spread out distal more easy...

Secondly, peat is also very special in that it is very long-fibery - creating capillary "bridges" between the verm with which the water can travel between the different verm grains. It also has a tendency to lump strongly together, keeps the whole substrate together - if one would replace that with coco's in a spaceship the dry coco chips would fly all over the place around...


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 30, 2020)

Good points. In his popular video I think he did say that vermiculite could be replaced with other inert substrates. I guess it is good that today before even thinking, I just added a lot of pertlite to the peat/vermiculite in my lab.

It is a trip, very funny and cool, to mentaly simulate growing on Mars

But as I'm not on Mars I think the green thumb took over my brain and intuition poured that pertlite in....

Truly the peat/vermiculite holds water, crazy amounts! So, I'm pretty sure a 20% to 25% pertlite won't hurt and may help. Esp for a relative newb as myself, still getting the hang of watering.


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## JonCreighton (Nov 2, 2020)

Kassiopeija said:


> You're right, but Anni has a point too - as vermiculite is just a different material than perlite, and both have different functions. Perlite gives aeration - and cannabis roots like a light soil where roots can "breath" (gas exchange). Who has ever drowned a seed in a glass of water because it did sprout over night? Or encountered root rot because the medium was "too heavy" in conjunction with excessive (too early + too often) waterings?
> 
> Bugbee's substrate is actually developed to work in a gravity-free or less-gravity zone than what we have here on earth. There, a substrate wouldn't compact much together - which cancels the need for perlite out. So he replaces it with vermiculite - to increase the access of roots for water. Vermiculite is also very special in that it doesn't allow for water to evaporate. Less gravity would actually cause swifter evaporation, as the water can spread out distal more easy...
> 
> Secondly, peat is also very special in that it is very long-fibery - creating capillary "bridges" between the verm with which the water can travel between the different verm grains. It also has a tendency to lump strongly together, keeps the whole substrate together - if one would replace that with coco's in a spaceship the dry coco chips would fly all over the place around...


good stuff.. thanks

are u sure the nasa studies and thee cannabis studies are the same... my impression was this is the guy nasa hires to study growing stuff in space therefore maybe the leading plant scientist in the country... that was approached by the cannabis industry to study cannabis... as in the nasa work and the cannabis work are two totally different things... his data is based on earthbound cannabis cultivars and a lot of the data doesnt makes sence on mars...... his video should be titled "the guy NASA chose to study plants in space has studies cannabis and wants you to know x"... for instance his research into lighting that hes kinda famous in these circuls for was done for electrical companies cuz they didnt want to give discounts to cultivators... then he makes a video and says push DLIs up over 60... 

iv never had a problem w the vermicukte... maybe its used in the space station for the reason u listed.. but in his video he mentions maybe spending a little more to get the vermicukite for a few reasons... u have to raise the ph of the peat... it has the best nutrient exchnage rate... it has great water retion rate.. its loaded w silica... in my personal experience u feed a 15 gal pot its heavy... 2 days later its so light i could throw the plant thru the roof.... putting vermicuklite w topsoil might not be a good idea... but if u replace it w perilite in this mix ur going to be fucking up the mix big time... iv certainly added a little periklite to increase volume before... but id rather stay w the vermiculite... and deffinatly try to keep to his ratios cuz they add up for specific purposes....

all this being said you have to put his info into refrence frames i think.... he says 20-10-20 striaght thru... but hes always going on about "the footsteps of the farmer being the best fetalizer" and plurple LEDs suck cuz u cant diagnose the plants.. so what i think he means is 20-10-20 as a base straigh thru and add slight adjustments as the plants dictate.. not just 20-10-20 striahg thru period...


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## JonCreighton (Nov 2, 2020)

Overgrowtho said:


> Good points. In his popular video I think he did say that vermiculite could be replaced with other inert substrates. I guess it is good that today before even thinking, I just added a lot of pertlite to the peat/vermiculite in my lab.
> 
> It is a trip, very funny and cool, to mentaly simulate growing on Mars
> 
> ...


just keep in mind ur using that vermiculite to pull the ph of the peat (3.5) back upward.. so if u skimp on the vermiculite ur going to need to adjust for that.... u would want to add a little more lime than he reccomends... or ph ur water up a little when u feed...


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## Vizzaro (Nov 13, 2020)

JonCreighton said:


> ph wise think of it as a combo of ur watering and ur meidum... and try to combine them to hit like 6.5 or whever u want i to land but its sa combo oif the two. if ur medium starts at 7.0 and ur constantly hitting it with 6.0 it will naturually start to lower over time but u get the point...
> 
> if u got bugbees medium or another miedium and ur clicking on all cyliinders then idk how much of a difference it makes ot be honest.. butttt i think staying clicking on all cylinders is easy with this mix... way easier than soil or coco if u ask me... most of your worries are in the mix already... all u got to worry about is watering at the correct time... EC seems ot have a direct corrolation to quality... iv done different PHs and different NPK combos and they honrestly donyt have that much of a difference.... but god dam u mess up ur EC and problems arise... so this method kinda builds in most factors and u just got to worry about keeping the EC in those pots at 1.3ish and thats the most important thing... thats why i say this is actually the easiest method...
> 
> some pics.... bioth these are the bugbee mix... one is the greenhouse... i go outside wayyyyy later than most people and push them as hard as u can... i find better nug qaulity this way than just putting them outside for 4 months.... one is a pheno hunt i was pushing super hard... by hard im talking ppfd 1300-1500


Thank you for this explanation. I too am trying out Dr. Bruce Bugbee's special media. I purchased a bag of Sphagnum Peat Moss from my local home depot and Vermiculite from my local Hydro store as well as some Dolomitic Lime (Unfortunately the Lime was not powder it was more like small rocks) and gypsum pallets. I also purchased a Jacks 20-10-20 General Purpose not realizing there is a Peat-Lite version of Jacks 20-10-20 with double the micronutrients of the General Purpose and the Peat-Lite 20-10-20 is the one Dr. Bruce Bugbee uses. My tap water has an EC of 0.5 at 240ppm I am not sure if that plays a factor into Fertigating, Please let me know if that is too high. So I have been fertigating my plant with my tap water and I guess half strength 20-10-20 since I want my EC to be around 1.0 - 1.3. This is my first grow and I have been doing a lot of reading and finding that people like to raise their EC in flower and since I am in flower I thought I would try it out and raise my EC, unfortunately my EC run-off sky rocketed to 2.0. I thought by fertigating my plant more often would bring down the EC, after reading about "high frequency fertigation" the article was about Coco-Coir but seeing as how Peat and Coco are both soilless medias I figured the same rules apply. 

I do have a lot of questions to ask you. As to how to properly fertigate a cannabis plant in Peat/Vermiculite. Did you use the Peat-Lite 20-10-20? How do you catch your run off? How can I bring my EC down? Should I fertigate with R/O water only? You mentioned having to add CAL-MAG later when its depleted in the medium do you just add more Lime in a top dressing? Are you always testing your run-off pH cause I stopped again after reading an article that measuring that doesn't really help you know the real pH at root level? I have notes of my fertigation schedule as I am trying to find when the right time to Fertigate is and I am having a hard time trying to figure that out. Also I have been wondering about the Potassium and bud quality cause I know everyone talks about increasing potassium during flower to make the buds grow bigger and I was curious if you would consider increasing potassium for more thicker buds or if there isn't much of a difference.


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## BIGBALLSJOE (Nov 17, 2020)

Vizzaro said:


> Thank you for this explanation. I too am trying out Dr. Bruce Bugbee's special media. I purchased a bag of Sphagnum Peat Moss from my local home depot and Vermiculite from my local Hydro store as well as some Dolomitic Lime (Unfortunately the Lime was not powder it was more like small rocks) and gypsum pallets. I also purchased a Jacks 20-10-20 General Purpose not realizing there is a Peat-Lite version of Jacks 20-10-20 with double the micronutrients of the General Purpose and the Peat-Lite 20-10-20 is the one Dr. Bruce Bugbee uses. My tap water has an EC of 0.5 at 240ppm I am not sure if that plays a factor into Fertigating, Please let me know if that is too high. So I have been fertigating my plant with my tap water and I guess half strength 20-10-20 since I want my EC to be around 1.0 - 1.3. This is my first grow and I have been doing a lot of reading and finding that people like to raise their EC in flower and since I am in flower I thought I would try it out and raise my EC, unfortunately my EC run-off sky rocketed to 2.0. I thought by fertigating my plant more often would bring down the EC, after reading about "high frequency fertigation" the article was about Coco-Coir but seeing as how Peat and Coco are both soilless medias I figured the same rules apply.
> 
> I do have a lot of questions to ask you. As to how to properly fertigate a cannabis plant in Peat/Vermiculite. Did you use the Peat-Lite 20-10-20? How do you catch your run off? How can I bring my EC down? Should I fertigate with R/O water only? You mentioned having to add CAL-MAG later when its depleted in the medium do you just add more Lime in a top dressing? Are you always testing your run-off pH cause I stopped again after reading an article that measuring that doesn't really help you know the real pH at root level? I have notes of my fertigation schedule as I am trying to find when the right time to Fertigate is and I am having a hard time trying to figure that out. Also I have been wondering about the Potassium and bud quality cause I know everyone talks about increasing potassium during flower to make the buds grow bigger and I was curious if you would consider increasing potassium for more thicker buds or if there isn't much of a difference.


its like any hydroponic media
this one offer great drainage/oxygenation for the roots thats why it will offer fast growth
for your ec its normal for it to climb in your runoff
thats why you need to give big runoff and recover it 
depending on your climate/parameters you will give different value of EC
between 1.5 to 2 mS is the right spot

dont measure it its misleading

just be sure to give exta large runoff to rinse heavily your root zone
dont let salts accumulate and ec climb watering after watering because of too small runoff

dont do top dressing, just use the base nutrients
your water contains enough calcium, no need calmag
you can need it for og/cookie strains, you will see it quickly


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## Vizzaro (Nov 18, 2020)

BIGBALLSJOE said:


> its like any hydroponic media
> this one offer great drainage/oxygenation for the roots thats why it will offer fast growth
> for your ec its normal for it to climb in your runoff
> thats why you need to give big runoff and recover it
> ...


This is confusing for me and contradicts what JonCreighton mentioned by keeping the EC between 1.0 and 1.5. and considering he has experience in growing in this medium I want to stick to his advice. Cause I am noticing problems with my plant. Her EC runoff is 2.0 and that's way too high and I am seeing nute burn on my plant. The pH run off is low too 4.8 and I know the proper pH should be 5.5. I'm thinking I may need to flush or something. I just gave her 2 gallons of nutrient solution and there was no change in the runoff. I don't know what to do other than flushing to bring the EC down and pH up.


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## BIGBALLSJOE (Nov 18, 2020)

Vizzaro said:


> This is confusing for me and contradicts what JonCreighton mentioned by keeping the EC between 1.0 and 1.5. and considering he has experience in growing in this medium I want to stick to his advice. Cause I am noticing problems with my plant. Her EC runoff is 2.0 and that's way too high and I am seeing nute burn on my plant. The pH run off is low too 4.8 and I know the proper pH should be 5.5. I'm thinking I may need to flush or something. I just gave her 2 gallons of nutrient solution and there was no change in the runoff. I don't know what to do other than flushing to bring the EC down and pH up.


yes
your runoff ph is to acidic because you have salt trapped in your medium. when medium dries, nutrients accumulate and acidify the root zone

if you give more runoff everytime you wont have these accumulations

they run low EC because they dont drain enough, so for counteract this they feed low
its not how you must do it

you need to 'flush' at each watering, not occasionaly.
each time you water you must give enough runoff to obtain the same pH/ec value on your drain and on your feed

if after 2gallon you had no change in your runoff EC, it means it wasnt enough

if you frequently give large runoff salts wont have time to accumulate
in fact they always accumulate a bit between the feeds, and its perfectly normal
but you need to rinse it everytime and RESET your medium ph/ec

you can believe me i went thrugh this with rockwool and coco some time ago and took me some time to figure


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## BIGBALLSJOE (Nov 18, 2020)

what your doing basically is just adding new feed over the solution that is in you medium
you feed at 1.2mS ph 5.5 for exemple, with very low runoff
but it doesnt mean after that feed your medium ec ph is at 1.2mS 5.5ph

what you need to control is the value of your medium, and the only way to do this is to runoff heavily ( never hurt to do so) to equalize the value of your feed and your medium each time


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## Vizzaro (Nov 18, 2020)

BIGBALLSJOE said:


> what your doing basically is just adding new feed over the solution that is in you medium
> you feed at 1.2mS ph 5.5 for exemple, with very low runoff
> but it doesnt mean after that feed your medium ec ph is at 1.2mS 5.5ph
> 
> what you need to control is the value of your medium, and the only way to do this is to runoff heavily ( never hurt to do so) to equalize the value of your feed and your medium each time


I appreciate the advice. So I need to give more of the nutrient water? I was asking myself if that was a good idea or not. This media does drain really well but I still felt like giving it that much nutrient solution would be a bad idea. But if you say you have experience with this I trust you. I always give my plant 1 Gallon of nutrient solution every time so I figured doubling it would do the job in correcting the EC but I didn't want to water more than that fearing it would cause more harm to my plant to do so. Also after 1 Gallon of nutrient solution I get 2 red solo cups of runoff which I felt was always enough runoff. I have been documenting my feeding schedule the best I could for my first time. So maybe you can notice something that I haven't.


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## Overgrowtho (Nov 18, 2020)

Interesting discussion guys.

Another related question: I have just brewed up my first compost tea for my super soil plants.

I wonder if it would be good to feed some of that to my Bruce Bugbee plant? (in photo you can see I used his fomular + pertlite).

A couple weeks ago I heard an interview with a pro grower using sterile rockwool/synthetic nutes, and he still nonetheless did a compost tea weekly to flush.


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## BIGBALLSJOE (Nov 19, 2020)

Vizzaro said:


> I appreciate the advice. So I need to give more of the nutrient water? I was asking myself if that was a good idea or not. This media does drain really well but I still felt like giving it that much nutrient solution would be a bad idea. But if you say you have experience with this I trust you. I always give my plant 1 Gallon of nutrient solution every time so I figured doubling it would do the job in correcting the EC but I didn't want to water more than that fearing it would cause more harm to my plant to do so. Also after 1 Gallon of nutrient solution I get 2 red solo cups of runoff which I felt was always enough runoff. I have been documenting my feeding schedule the best I could for my first time. So maybe you can notice something that I haven't.





Vizzaro said:


> I appreciate the advice. So I need to give more of the nutrient water? I was asking myself if that was a good idea or not. This media does drain really well but I still felt like giving it that much nutrient solution would be a bad idea. But if you say you have experience with this I trust you. I always give my plant 1 Gallon of nutrient solution every time so I figured doubling it would do the job in correcting the EC but I didn't want to water more than that fearing it would cause more harm to my plant to do so. Also after 1 Gallon of nutrient solution I get 2 red solo cups of runoff which I felt was always enough runoff. I have been documenting my feeding schedule the best I could for my first time. So maybe you can notice something that I haven't.


yes in fact in hydro medium you can't overwater by giving too much water

can happen in soil because it has a high water retention and low oxygen content
if you water too much soil with small plants not already established they can show overwatering signs

i dont know the bruce bugbee method but i think its similar to flock rockwool
will allow you to feed several times a day since the day 1 because of the high oxygenation of the medium
with big runoffs you will always get the ec/ph levels inside the medium in check, and get the fastest growth rate and health


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## BIGBALLSJOE (Nov 19, 2020)

Overgrowtho said:


> Overgrowtho said:
> 
> 
> > Interesting discussion guys.
> ...


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## Kassiopeija (Nov 19, 2020)

Vizzaro said:


> I appreciate the advice. So I need to give more of the nutrient water? I was asking myself if that was a good idea or not. This media does drain really well but I still felt like giving it that much nutrient solution would be a bad idea. But if you say you have experience with this I trust you. I always give my plant 1 Gallon of nutrient solution every time so I figured doubling it would do the job in correcting the EC but I didn't want to water more than that fearing it would cause more harm to my plant to do so. Also after 1 Gallon of nutrient solution I get 2 red solo cups of runoff which I felt was always enough runoff. I have been documenting my feeding schedule the best I could for my first time. So maybe you can notice something that I haven't.


Your plant can leech some nutes out of the water while refusing others or excreting unwanted substances back into the rhizosphere. This means that the nutrition profile resident in your pot is being changed over time (according to a plant's needs) and needs to be drained out of the pot. You also don't want that these minerals crystal out near the roots, so you simply drain the old water out of the pot with each consecutive watering. How much that is, is up to you, but 20-30% do normally suffice.

How often you want to irrigate is dependant on the fact of how often the medium actually allows it (without causing root rot) or you find it economically viable. With both cocos and verm for a substrate this should be able to encapture more water (and thus, hold less atmospherical oxygen) as you can take from this table:


Spielsand/ QuarzsandHamann0.05leicht alkalischnichts [*]Dreck vom Acker/Feld(nach dem Pflügen)0.08neutral (Regen-Auswaschung)fast nichts [*]MuttererdeeBay0.3fast nichts bzw. negativ [**]EuroPebbelsPlagron*hoch* (ungewaschen)*stark alkalisch*~15 %Elementarer Schwefel (auf 10% Bentonit)Düngerexperte.de0.1 (nach 1min ***)leicht sauer~20%Hydro Correls 2mmeBay0.2 (ungewaschen)~30%Natur-ZeolitheBay0.02~43%SeramisSeramis0.057.4~190%DiatominAgriNova0.5 (ungewaschen)6.4~200%Perlite PerligranKnauf0neutral~220%Premium Perlite (fein)eBay0.1 (ungewaschen)~275%Hochmoortorf1.2*4.5*~310%Vermiculite 2-8mmDüngerexperte.de0.2 (ungewaschen)~370%Vermiculite 1-2mmDüngerexperte.de0.1 (ungewaschen)~480%Cocos BlockHumus Ziegel>*4.0* (ungewaschen)*alkalisch* (ungewaschen)
leicht sauer (gewaschen)~510%Stockosorb/ SuperabsorberTerrabest0neutralmax. 30.000% [!] bei RO [****]


So Verm is actually twice "as wet" as Perlite


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## greener side (Dec 30, 2020)

"How often you want to irrigate is dependant on the fact of how often the medium actually allows it (without causing root rot)"

I am super curious about this, the Bugbee video is awesome and I have followed his soil recipe exactly. It is intended to work with his tap water which is high in minerals and ph. As am using ro water, I have been adding cal-mag to .3 um and then 10-5-13 to a total of 1.3. My issue is the same as the original poster, how dry should this medium be before watering. I do not believe Bugbee is fertilizing like with coco, but am not sure how dry I should let it become. Today was runnoff got to 2.0 so my next water will be half strength and a little earlier than normal. Has anyone kept this mixture saturated?


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## JonCreighton (Dec 31, 2020)

greener side said:


> "How often you want to irrigate is dependant on the fact of how often the medium actually allows it (without causing root rot)"
> 
> I am super curious about this, the Bugbee video is awesome and I have followed his soil recipe exactly. It is intended to work with his tap water which is high in minerals and ph. As am using ro water, I have been adding cal-mag to .3 um and then 10-5-13 to a total of 1.3. My issue is the same as the original poster, how dry should this medium be before watering. I do not believe Bugbee is fertilizing like with coco, but am not sure how dry I should let it become. *Today was runnoff got to 2.0 so my next water will be half strength and a little earlier than normal.* Has anyone kept this mixture saturated?


you want to go in the other direction... ur putting in 1.3 ec... and ur registering 2.0 in ur runoff... that means ur watering too much... ur not giving the plant enought time to remove all the nuitrents before ur putting more nutient into the medium... 

i noticed above someone mentioed u basically cant overwater a good soiless medium. this is true it will just run out the bottom... but u can over nuitrient and thats the problem most people run into when dealing with good mixes. this mix has to get pretty dam dry before watering again

i dont like going half strength and i deffinatly wouldnt do any non nuitent flushing cuz u can mess with the nutrient retention. just 1.3 ec and u adjust ur watering scheudle based on the biomass of the plant. big plant in small bucket u be watreing once a day... small plant in big bucket u might be watering once every 3 days... thats fine. just for an example ill use 15 gallon pots in the outdoor greenhouse... when i water those things they are HEAVY.. couple days later when i go in to water again u can basically toss those thigns thru the roof if u wanted to.. they get that light

bugbee is actually counting on people using tap water i think cuz he doesnt include micro nutients or calcium and stuff... hes counting on you getting a lot of that stuff from your tap... i believe in his youtube video he starts at .4 ec from the tap and adds .9 of the jacks 20-10-20. if ur going to go the RO route ur going to need to starts adding ur own micro nutrients and more of ur own calcium magnesium maybe sulfer ect... you should be fine w tap water, jacks 20-10-20, and a little calcium and magnesium if they need it (meaning the calcium and magnesium from the ammendments in the mix might not be sufficient for the whole grow. you may need to add some eventually)

i kinda hesitate tio post this but if anyone is looking for a deeper understand of the way bugbee approaches nuteints you can look at this paper.

284231562_Nutrient_management_in_recirculating_hydroponic_culture

its a paper from his in 2004 on nutrients in reciculating hydropnics... i hesitate tio post it cuz hydropnic nutrients and soiles nutirents are different things and it took me a long time to understand the differnces and i dont want anyone to get confused... this paper is difficult and i domnt wnat anone to get confused.. just do the 20-10-20... but if u want to get an more indepth understandin of his methodology you can go a little deeper w the posted paper.


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## greener side (Jan 1, 2021)

Thanks for the paper and the advice. I believe it is relevant to my situation and quite helpful. Hope to start both a coco and aeroponics grow before too long.


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## Mario9992999 (Jan 22, 2021)

I have recently started growing with this exact method and ran into some issues. I have attached some pictures. Anyone else experienced this?

Ec 1.1 going in and coming out 
Ph 6.5 in and 5.2 out
Been following the VPD

Could it be the ph fluctuation? 

Thanks in advance.


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## greener side (Jan 22, 2021)

I would suspect that, I believe this technique calls for ph in the low 8s to start with before adding nutrients, which likely only lower to higher 7s. Waste should be around 6 - 6.5. Your plants look pretty good, so should stop showing those issues in new growth if that is actually the issue.


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## greener side (Jan 22, 2021)

greener side said:


> I would suspect that, I believe this technique calls for ph in the low 8s to start with before adding nutrients, which likely only lower to higher 7s. Waste should be around 6 - 6.5. Your plants look pretty good, so should stop showing those issues in new growth if that is actually the issue.


Also try 1.3 in, some phenomes like to be a little higher and will yellow a touch at 1.3 as some may be happier at 1.1 I would guess.


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## Mario9992999 (Jan 22, 2021)

They actually just showed up the day after watering. I thought it would be better to lower the ph.


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## Henchman2one (Jan 22, 2021)

I'd be more interested in his ion concentrations and/or ratios. 

Also...
Can you attain an elemental anaysis of a strain grown outdoors? Assuming all nutrients that the plant could possibly want are available within the soil, could you extrapolate an exact hydro recipe? You'd know essentially that your carbon component is coming from the atmosphere and not something you need to worry about providing, along with the H component ect, but the proportions and the exact specimens within the elemental analysis should correlate to the proportions of the ideal hydro recipe of the particular strain (assuming same SPD indoor as outdoor)?


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## greener side (Jan 22, 2021)

Watch his video again, the recipe is specifically high ph water that contains lots of minerals. The vermiculite is supposed to be good for ion exchange. A friend has used it successfully.


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## Overgrowtho (Jan 22, 2021)

Watched the vid a few times and don't recall about high ph water. 

Have been using his medium successfully although I started with a normal EC like 400 ppm and 6.0 ph and slowly increase ec instead of ramming such a high ec from the start.


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## greener side (Jan 22, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Watched the vid a few times and don't recall about high ph water.
> 
> Have been using his medium successfully although I started with a normal EC like 400 ppm and 6.0 ph and slowly increase ec instead of ramming such a high ec from the start.


It's in there, I remember because high ph water is an issue here too. I don't really know how any of the ppm scales translate. Seen a pheno of a mostly indica yellow up using the 1.3 ums, but just a bit. Fixed it with one heavier feeding. I'm sure this could vary widely with genetics.


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## Vizzaro (Jan 23, 2021)

Ive seen the Bruce Bugbee video multiple times and the only time he mentions pH is when he is talking about making the media. Since Peat is acidic he adds vermiculite and dolomitic lime to bring the pH of the media to 5.5 which he says is near optimum. Other than that he mentions they have low sulfer in their water so they add gypsum and he measures the EC of their tap water which is at ~0.4.


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## greener side (Jan 24, 2021)

Ok, Definitely a false memory on my part. Of course if you don't remember it it definitely didn't happen.


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## greener side (Jan 24, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Ive seen the Bruce Bugbee video multiple times and the only time he mentions pH is when he is talking about making the media. Since Peat is acidic he adds vermiculite and dolomitic lime to bring the pH of the media to 5.5 which he says is near optimum. Other than that he mentions they have low sulfer in their water so they add gypsum and he measures the EC of their tap water which is at ~0.4.


I can now confirm it is not in the 'maximize your' video. I still believe it to be mentioned in one of his videos. If I find it, I will confirm. Obviously even if I do it would be a bit ambiguous, though my high ph low buffer water seems to work well as evidenced by happy tomatoes


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## JonCreighton (Jan 24, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Ive seen the Bruce Bugbee video multiple times and the only time he mentions pH is when he is talking about making the media. Since Peat is acidic he adds vermiculite and dolomitic lime to bring the pH of the media to 5.5 which he says is near optimum. Other than that he mentions they have low sulfer in their water so they add gypsum and he measures the EC of their tap water which is at ~0.4.


its very important to note that the 20-10-20 he reccomends has almost no other nuitents in it.

i think it has micro nuitenients but other than the NPK it has almost nothing. so while the additions he adds do help to w the PH they are also there to supply the other nuitents not in the jacks 20-10-20. gypsom is calium sulfate and lime has calcium and madnesium i think. so u can think of his mix as kind of a combination of slow reslease fertalizer in the soil mixed w addition of NPK in the feed solution. if u mniss the soil ammendsments its not going to kill u w PH but it will kill you cuz u have no calcium at all. 

iv ran the soil and nutirent to his exact specification and posted the pics above. at about week 6 or somehitng i started adding cal, mag, sulfer cuz i just didnt think the ammendments to the soil were cutting it. 

what he records from that video is a very general fertiliser. he wrote a paper in 2004 about nutrients in hydroponics that give a better insight into exactly what he thinks about plant nutrition. 

if you want to get a little more specific. these are the exact numbers from his 2004 paper as u can see they are much diffferent than most of the way people use nuitrenits.... i thinnk that is why durring the video he makjes the wierd statement about people using "tooo much nuitrient"... thes are N,P,K, cal, mag, sul. and the table are what he calls .. starter... vegatative refill.. and reproductive (or fruiting) refill
  

VERY IMPORTANT TO NOTE THAT THESE NUMBERS ARE FOR HYDROPONICS AND IN PPMS BECUASE IT IS EASIER FOR ME TO WORK W THAT WAY. idk if u could convert these percentages directly cuz of how the math w orks on the spreadhseet but generally converting ppms to "normal" fertlaizer NPK percentages u would multiply the P by 2.3 and the K by 1.2

another side note he leaves room to add more nitrogen if nessesary to the ph control solution... so u could taske these numbers and add some N to them if u needed to. but he basically reccomends the numbers above


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## JonCreighton (Jan 24, 2021)

this is the numbers in ppms... if i remmeber correctly he says a nitrogen rate of 120ppms in the video... these numbers i think would average out to pretty close to that. you only give the start solutiuon 1 time in hydroponics... then go into veg refill.. then reprodutive refill.. 

also remember to get out of ppms and to normal npk numnbers multiple the P x 2.3 and the K x 1.2


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## Wastei (Jan 24, 2021)

Mario9992999 said:


> I have recently started growing with this exact method and ran into some issues. I have attached some pictures. Anyone else experienced this?
> 
> Ec 1.1 going in and coming out
> Ph 6.5 in and 5.2 out
> ...


Improper watering techniques, they look overly dry to me. Probably low pH if you're growing in peat based soil. Peat is naturally acidic.

You need a buffer, either by adding silicate, lime or simply buy adding pH up before watering. Cheers!


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## JonCreighton (Jan 24, 2021)

Mario9992999 said:


> I have recently started growing with this exact method and ran into some issues. I have attached some pictures. Anyone else experienced this?
> 
> Ec 1.1 going in and coming out
> Ph 6.5 in and 5.2 out
> ...


if ur using the peat lite 20-10-20 it could be calcium defficiency from the additives in the soil not being enough calcium. i know at least some of the jacks 20-10-20 has no calcium. 

could be too little phosporus... theres not much P in the 20-10-20... not much at all... going in at 6.5 ph some people would say is on the high side for P uptake aswell... so if u combine those two things together it could be a lack of phosporus... the large drop in PH in to PH out could indicate the plant is not eating the phosporus at the same rate as the other nuitrents aswell. phosporus has a large impact on ph down... that general hydropoonics orange ph down that mnost people use is actually phosporic acid.. so a large drop in the ph could indicate the runoff has a higher percentage of phosporus than the nuitrent solution.. that would mean the plant is not eating that phosporus at the same rate as the other nuitrnts. most people would say phosporus is avaialable in the 5.5-6.2 range... so it could be that feeding at 6.5 is restricting the phosporus uptake... coupled w the super low phosportus fertalizer... idk hope that help.. good luck


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## JonCreighton (Jan 24, 2021)

those are the ELEMENTAL ((Px2.3) and (Kx1.2) for regular NPK) numbers for jacks 20-10-20... it comes out to 250 ppm 1 gram to 1 gallon.... if u notice there is no cal mag sul or silicone... those thigns are in the ammendsments to the soil... but i dont think enough...

to be honest iv done the soil just like he says and the 20-10-20 (actually 50-10-40) and everything just like he reccomned but i thin if ur really trying to follow the bugbee method u would want to find a way.. any way doesnt have to be how he mentioned..just find a way to get to the mixes i listed above.. I tailor them alittle but toward what most other people do for cannabis nuitreints. but the 20-10-20 (50-10-40) was his attemp at a general fertlaizer... i think his attemo at how to get specific was in his paper on nuitrenits in recirculating hydropoincs... i listed my break outs from that paper above... i should note im not a plant scientist i jackhammer for a living and the paper was difficult to break down.. so grower beware.

sorry if i highjack the thread but its really worth nothing unless u follow the intial mix pretty much exactly... just running jacks pete lite 20-10-20 could be a disaster...


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## Vizzaro (Jan 26, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> View attachment 4806023View attachment 4806016View attachment 4806017
> those are the ELEMENTAL ((Px2.3) and (Kx1.2) for regular NPK) numbers for jacks 20-10-20... it comes out to 250 ppm 1 gram to 1 gallon.... if u notice there is no cal mag sul or silicone... those thigns are in the ammendsments to the soil... but i dont think enough...
> 
> to be honest iv done the soil just like he says and the 20-10-20 (actually 50-10-40) and everything just like he reccomned but i thin if ur really trying to follow the bugbee method u would want to find a way.. any way doesnt have to be how he mentioned..just find a way to get to the mixes i listed above.. I tailor them alittle but toward what most other people do for cannabis nuitreints. but the 20-10-20 (50-10-40) was his attemp at a general fertlaizer... i think his attemo at how to get specific was in his paper on nuitrenits in recirculating hydropoincs... i listed my break outs from that paper above... i should note im not a plant scientist i jackhammer for a living and the paper was difficult to break down.. so grower beware.
> ...


Did you use only the 50-10-40 and never used the 20-10-20? Also where did you get the 50-10-40?

And I get what you are saying about the Jacks 20-10-20 but it just makes me wonder how Dr. Bugbee was able to do it. I was curious if they actually used the Peat-Lite 20-10-20 in veg and in bloom. And in the comments of the video I found the answer in a response from Dr. Bugbee where he said: "We use the same 20-10-20 solution throughout the life cycle. the optimum input EC is about 1.5 milliSiemens per cm. It is particularly important to keep checking, the leachate from the containers to make sure it doesn't get too high or too low during flowering. The optimum electrical conductivity for the leachate is between 1 and 2 milliSiemens per cm."

And as for which fertilizer they use of the 20-10-20's they said: " The exacter fertilizer we use is Peters Professional 20-10-20 Peat-Lite Special. The Peat-Lite special has higher levels of micronutrients than the general purpose 20-10-20 fertilizer. The higher micronutrients concentration is beneficial-as long as growers keep the overall EC from getting too high."


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## JonCreighton (Jan 27, 2021)

the 50-10-40 is what the 20-10-20 is in elemental form... when u buy fertalizer they giver the npk numbers but thats not whats really in the mix... idk why they do this apparently in othre countries they give the actuall amount of npk... but in the states u have to convert them to elemntal... u do this by multiplying the P by .43 and the K by .83... if u do that w the 20-10-20 it comes to basically a 50-10-40... i did this because the numbers from his 04 pape arer easiest broken out in elemntal (ppm) form and not NPK form... so if u wanted to compare the jacks to the numbers i listed above they would both need to be in PPM form.. i know its dum and confusing... if i got the NPK percentages ont he spreadhseet ill try and post them

bugbee is able to do it because the mix as a whole is really really good. but if u miss a step or two, cant find vermiculite, or lime, or gypsum. none of that stuff is in the jacks 20-10-20... u would be relying on tap water alone for things like calcium, magnesium, sulfer, silicon, ect... some of the most important things for a plant and in mnost places not enough in the tap water. so u have to follow the addative to the soil if ur going to just go w jacks or ur going to be seriously lacking a lot of secondary nuitrents unless u got some exceptionally hard tap water.


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## Audiofilet (Jan 27, 2021)

Hello everyone!

There are several things to consider.

Dr. Bugbee's fertilizer recommendation is for use with tap water, and here's why:

Firstly tap water contains calcium and magnesium (more often than not approx ~80 ppm Ca and ~25 ppm Mg), which together with some from the dolomitic lime is sufficient. The 20-10-20 peat lite does not contain calcium and almost no magnesium, because it is designed for tap water and takes this into account. Micro nutrients (Fe, B, Cu, Mn, Mo, Zn) are included in this fertilizer in sufficient quantities, so no need to worry about that.

Secondly, but not less important, tap water has alkalinity (not to confuse with ph) which consists of mostly carbonates and bicarbonates ("hardness", for example CaCO3). This alkalinity will drive the ph of the substrate more and more up towards 7 over time, and this is too high. To counteract this, the 20-10-20 contains approx 40 percent of its nitrogen as ammoniacal nitrogen (NH4), which in turn has an acidifying effect in the substrate. The result is that the ph remains somewhat constant over time. Both, alkalinity and the acidifying effect of ammonium nitrogen on their own have much more impact on the substrate ph than the ph of the irrigation water.

If you use reverse osmosis water (which has no alkalinity), the high ammonium nitrogen content of the fertilizer will drive the substrate ph rapidly down over time since there is no alkalinity to buffer that, even if the ph of the irrigation water would not be acidic.

So you have to consider several things if using reverse osmosis water:

1) The use of a fertilizer which contains most of its nitrogen in the nitrate form, so that substrate ph remains somewhat stable.
2) Further you need a source for calcium and magnesium.

The best way to achieve this is to use a three part system, consisting of

Part A: a fertilizer with no or just a little nitrogen, but a ~1:2 ratio of P2O5:K2O, like Peters combi sol 6-18-36 or Peters hydroponic special 5-11-26. They are designed to work in conjunction with different nitrogen sources, depending on the source water and type of substrate (ammonium nitrate, calcium nitrate, ammonium sulfate etc.).

Part B: calcium nitrate for nitrogen and calcium

Part C: magnesium sulfate for magnesium and sulfur.

Here is an example (also perfect for coco and other soilless substrates etc.)
Peters combi sol (6-18-36): 0,34 g/l
Calcium nitrate (15,5 N 19 Ca): 0,65 g/l
Magnesium sulfate (10 Mg 13 S): 0,3 g/l

gives N-P2O5-K2O-Ca-Mg-S:
121-61-122-120-35-48


The ratio Dr. Bugbee recommends gives superb results in terms of both yield AND quality. Just be sure to NOT use any bloom boosters as it is really not needed and only throws you NPK ratio off. Just this ratio from veg till the end, no extra flowering formula or changing ratios, no reduced nitrogen. All the "cannabis specific" bla bla is just marketing bullshit and broscience.
So to summarize it:
It's super cheap, gives perfect results, better than all the overpriced, down watered high PK ripoff "nutrients lines", it is super easy, no constantly running to the hydro store.
You can get these in 50 pound bags and have a lifetime supply (!) for a couple of bucks.

As a side note: I would trust Dr. Bugbee more than most if not all others because for sure he knows what he is talking about and first researches what he claims. He's a well-known, respected professor doing pioneering work for almost 40 years, photobiology, nutrition, soilless substrates, hydroponics to only name a few topics, and has released many peer-reviewed papers. They are professionals who do REAL scientific research.
Watch his USU Cannabis lab tour video. They are doing state of the art cannabis research in controlled environment growth chambers and testing also parameters like temperature, humidity etc.

The world of cannabis is so full of myths and false claims and marketing bollocks, it is ridiculous, and i'm glad that finally there is scientific research going on and people like Dr. Bugbee uncover the truth!


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## JonCreighton (Jan 27, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> The world of cannabis is so full of myths and false claims and marketing bollocks, it is ridiculous, and i'm glad that finally there is scientific research going on and people like Dr. Bugbee uncover the truth!


well said... and i couldnt agree more with everything u said... let me throw some things at the wall here and let me know what u think...

i wonder.. given more time on the video he wouldnt get a little more detailed w his nutient methodology... i think iv attached his 2004 paper on riculuating hydroponics a couple time on this thread and iv posted what my breaks outs of his solutions are from that paper above.. i wonder if given time to expand on his thoughts on the video hee wouldnt shade more towards the break outs from the 2004 paper.. 

he says on the video " we use the same fertalizer for all plants.. wheat plants, corn, tomaote,... we can reccomend a general fertalizer that does well for this" so if he were to be reccomending a tomatoe fertalizer in a similar video i imagine he would say go w 20-10-20... but based on the 2004 paper we can see what his actuall fertalizers are quit different but avaerage out to close to 20-10-20... 

i guess what im wondering is......

was the 20-10-20 from the video an over generalisation and given more time he would lean his mixes more towards the 2004 paper?

or

has his views on nuitrnets changed since 2004? or is cannabis so different it requires a totally differnt feralizer? (i lean agaist this cuz again he said in the video he would reccomend the 20-10-20 for the same pants from the 04 paper) 

im really trying to nail down here cuz u cant leach hydro system really and im tyring to go start to finsih without changin the solution... everything being cumulative w the hydro im just trying to be as sharp as i can w it..


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## Audiofilet (Jan 27, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> well said... and i couldnt agree more with everything u said... let me throw some things at the wall here and let me know what u think...
> 
> i wonder.. given more time on the video he wouldnt get a little more detailed w his nutient methodology... i think iv attached his 2004 paper on riculuating hydroponics a couple time on this thread and iv posted what my breaks outs of his solutions are from that paper above.. i wonder if given time to expand on his thoughts on the video hee wouldnt shade more towards the break outs from the 2004 paper..
> 
> ...


I've read the paper you mentioned a few years ago but don't remember exactly what elemental concentrations etc. were described. I'll read it once again, perhaps i'm able to give you an answer on that. What i can say for now is that one difference is recirculating vs non-recirculating with leaching ("drain to waste").
In a recirculating system you have to take several things into account. For example different elements are taken up by plants at different speeds and by different mechanisms (for example calcium is only passively absorbed by mass flow etc.) so some could accumulate in the nutrient reservoir or the substrate while others could soon get depleted (and maybe deficient). The plants also alter the ph of the recirculating nutrient solution as they take up elements (for example if it takes up more cations than anions the ph goes down because hydrogen ions are exchanged for them to keep the ion charge in balance and vice versa). So as far as i know the ratios are more important and maybe different as opposed to an open system where you leach the substrate a bit (~10-20% runoff) every time you feed so the elemental ratios and concentrations remain somewhat more stable/constant and the fertilizer salts don't accumulate that much.
Well... i will read that one up again and come back to hopefully be able to give you (and me) a more precise answer.
If you have any questions feel free to ask as i'm always willing to help where i can.


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## JonCreighton (Jan 27, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> I've read the paper you mentioned a few years ago but don't remember exactly what elemental concentrations etc. were described. I'll read it once again, perhaps i'm able to give you an answer on that. What i can say for now is that one difference is recirculating vs non-recirculating with leaching ("drain to waste").
> In a recirculating system you have to take several things into account. For example different elements are taken up by plants at different speeds and by different mechanisms (for example calcium is only passively absorbed by mass flow etc.) so some could accumulate in the nutrient reservoir or the substrate while others could soon get depleted (and maybe deficient). The plants also alter the ph of the recirculating nutrient solution as they take up elements (for example if it takes up more cations than anions the ph goes down because hydrogen ions are exchanged for them to keep the ion charge in balance and vice versa). So as far as i know the ratios are more important and maybe different as opposed to an open system where you leach the substrate a bit (~10-20% runoff) every time you feed so the elemental ratios and concentrations remain somewhat more stable/constant and the fertilizer salts don't accumulate that much.
> Well... i will read that one up again and come back to hopefully be able to give you (and me) a more precise answer.
> If you have any questions feel free to ask as i'm always willing to help where i can.


ya its quite difficult in the hydro... im trying to make the mixes w half the nitrogen and supply the other half of the nitrogen via nitric acid w a ph controller... even w the passive uptake in calcium its hard to get the amount of calcium u need into the mix without adding too much nitrogen... by that i mean if u were to use calcium nitrate for ur calcium and u need lets say 20% calcium... ur already at like 15% nitrogen... and the nitric acid needed for ph might push u over where u want to be for N. calcium chloride helps but i tread lightly w the chloride... im not really sure what a toxic ppm level of chloride is (iv read a lot of different opinions, some up to 150 ppm/g) and im not really sure how quickly it is absored from the solution so im worried about accumulation. do u know either of those things by chance? becuase i can only get the mixes down to about 2/3 nitrogen in the mix and 1/3 in the ph control iv been adding 1/3 of the phosporus via phosporic acid in the ph control and that has been working fine

its a cool paper to read and grasp...i just dont have the infastructure to be changing out my circulating solutons weekly or even bi weekly... i broke out the starter, veg, and refill solutions from micro and millimole into ppm form (not NPK) and posted it a few posts up if u want to save some time from haveing to do it yourself give those a peep... the way he does it is he give the start solutoin 1 time... vegatative durring veg and reprodutive mix durring what might be flower but im not 100% sure about that... it might be he carries the veg refill for most of the process and only changes to reproductive growth for the very end (last week or 2). thats just my guess and what im basically doing these days... the veg refill solutuion is very close to the 20-10-20 aswell..


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## JonCreighton (Jan 27, 2021)

i figured id just post the math... someone let me know if its wrong...

there is a description in the article where he describes the difference between his mix and the hoagland solutiuon.. he says his mix contains much less nitrogen because half of the nitrogen can be supplied via the ph control soluton. for that reason there is a column w the exact numbers from the tables from the 04 paper... there is also a column w those same numbers but double the nitrogen.. those are the N2 columns.... the mixes w double the nitrogen are the actual targets.... in my opinion atleast, thats what i think he was trying to say


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## Vizzaro (Jan 28, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> Hello everyone!
> 
> There are several things to consider.
> 
> ...


I appreciate your comment on Dr. Bugbees "Method" for growing cannabis. As I mentioned earlier I am growing my plants in media I made based on Dr. Bugbees formula. But unfortunately I am running into problems.

I am getting some yellowing on my plants. I suspect it was calcium deficiency. Also I may have stunted 2 of my younger plants due to transplant shock. It was hard for me to get them out of their small starting container I used (I won't be using those again). After I placed them in their new containers and fertigated them I noted the leaves just flopped down after that and they have not bounced back. The bottom leaves turned yellow super fast and then just dried up.


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## Audiofilet (Jan 28, 2021)

So, i read the paper once again.
In this paper a special type of recirculating system is used. They do not dump the recirculating solution every week as it is common for such a system. They use the same solution for the entire crop cycle (several months) without discarding the solution and just fill it up as needed with either a vegetative or a fruit refill. He describes the challenges that occur like nutrient toxicities if one would refill every time with a full dose of nitrogen for example.

BUT: in this paper nutrient concentrations are given in millimoles (mM) per liter and not percent or ppm. I don't know if you know about the concept of moles etc. but it is relative easy to convert from millimoles to ppm.
For example nitrogen has a molar mass of 14 g/Mol. Multiply that with for example 6 millimole to get 84 ppm.

14 g/Mol x 6 mMol/L = 84 mg/L = 84 ppm

Molar masses (g/Mol) for:
Nitrogen = 14
Phosphorus = 31
Potassium = 39
Calcium = 40
Magnesium = 24,3
Sulfur = 32

For the vegetative refill solution this would give (ppm):

N = 84
P = 15,5
K = 195

or as phosphate and potash like on most fertilizer bags (P/0,43=P2O5 and K/0,83=K2O)

N = 84
P2O5 = 36
K2O = 235

That is a ratio of 2,3-1-6,5 or 23-10-65.
So the only different thing here is a higher potassium content than the 20-10-20 and i think the use of nitrogen only as nitrate and no ammonium.
If i understand it correctly they do not use a peat/vermiculite substrate in that paper, so they do not have a high cation exchange capacity (CEC) that stores and buffers (amongst calcium and magnesium) also potassium. Perhaps this is the reason they use a higher potassium concentration in their solution, but i don't know for sure. It could further be a compromise for using all-nitrate nitrogen, as the only usable fertilizer salts for this are calcium nitrate and potassium nitrate and so they use more potassium nitrate to not over apply calcium.
And the recirculating system is also a factor that influences their ratios.

So this is a different approach to fertilization (to save the environment etc.) than what's recommended in his cannabis video and not of big relevance if fertigating in a soilless peat based substrate with 10-20 % runoff.


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## Audiofilet (Jan 28, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> i figured id just post the math... someone let me know if its wrong...
> 
> there is a description in the article where he describes the difference between his mix and the hoagland solutiuon.. he says his mix contains much less nitrogen because half of the nitrogen can be supplied via the ph control soluton. for that reason there is a column w the exact numbers from the tables from the 04 paper... there is also a column w those same numbers but double the nitrogen.. those are the N2 columns.... the mixes w double the nitrogen are the actual targets.... in my opinion atleast, thats what i think he was trying to say


Oops i wrote a reply and just after posting i saw that you already did the math of mM to ppm


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## Audiofilet (Jan 28, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> So, i read the paper once again.
> In this paper a special type of recirculating system is used. They do not dump the recirculating solution every week as it is common for such a system. They use the same solution for the entire crop cycle (several months) without discarding the solution and just fill it up as needed with either a vegetative or a fruit refill. He describes the challenges that occur like nutrient toxicities if one would refill every time with a full dose of nitrogen for example.
> 
> BUT: in this paper nutrient concentrations are given in millimoles (mM) per liter and not percent or ppm. I don't know if you know about the concept of moles etc. but it is relative easy to convert from millimoles to ppm.
> ...


Just saw at the end of the paper he writes that meanwhile they are using less potassium in the refill solution, so it should be somewhat lower than in their table at the beginning.


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## Audiofilet (Jan 28, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I appreciate your comment on Dr. Bugbees "Method" for growing cannabis. As I mentioned earlier I am growing my plants in media I made based on Dr. Bugbees formula. But unfortunately I am running into problems.
> 
> I am getting some yellowing on my plants. I suspect it was calcium deficiency. Also I may have stunted 2 of my younger plants due to transplant shock. It was hard for me to get them out of their small starting container I used (I won't be using those again). After I placed them in their new containers and fertigated them I noted the leaves just flopped down after that and they have not bounced back. The bottom leaves turned yellow super fast and then just dried up.


Do you use tap water or reverse osmosis water?


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## Audiofilet (Jan 28, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I appreciate your comment on Dr. Bugbees "Method" for growing cannabis. As I mentioned earlier I am growing my plants in media I made based on Dr. Bugbees formula. But unfortunately I am running into problems.
> 
> I am getting some yellowing on my plants. I suspect it was calcium deficiency. Also I may have stunted 2 of my younger plants due to transplant shock. It was hard for me to get them out of their small starting container I used (I won't be using those again). After I placed them in their new containers and fertigated them I noted the leaves just flopped down after that and they have not bounced back. The bottom leaves turned yellow super fast and then just dried up.


It is common for the seed leaves to yellow and fall off, so i wouldn't worry that much and see how the plants are developing. Just be careful to not over water those young plants. Let the pots get a bit dry between the feedings the first times so the substrate doesn't stay wet all the time. Have you checked the ph of the substrate a few days after mixing?


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## Audiofilet (Jan 28, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> ya its quite difficult in the hydro... im trying to make the mixes w half the nitrogen and supply the other half of the nitrogen via nitric acid w a ph controller... even w the passive uptake in calcium its hard to get the amount of calcium u need into the mix without adding too much nitrogen... by that i mean if u were to use calcium nitrate for ur calcium and u need lets say 20% calcium... ur already at like 15% nitrogen... and the nitric acid needed for ph might push u over where u want to be for N. calcium chloride helps but i tread lightly w the chloride... im not really sure what a toxic ppm level of chloride is (iv read a lot of different opinions, some up to 150 ppm/g) and im not really sure how quickly it is absored from the solution so im worried about accumulation. do u know either of those things by chance? becuase i can only get the mixes down to about 2/3 nitrogen in the mix and 1/3 in the ph control iv been adding 1/3 of the phosporus via phosporic acid in the ph control and that has been working fine
> 
> its a cool paper to read and grasp...i just dont have the infastructure to be changing out my circulating solutons weekly or even bi weekly... i broke out the starter, veg, and refill solutions from micro and millimole into ppm form (not NPK) and posted it a few posts up if u want to save some time from haveing to do it yourself give those a peep... the way he does it is he give the start solutoin 1 time... vegatative durring veg and reprodutive mix durring what might be flower but im not 100% sure about that... it might be he carries the veg refill for most of the process and only changes to reproductive growth for the very end (last week or 2). thats just my guess and what im basically doing these days... the veg refill solutuion is very close to the 20-10-20 aswell..


What is your target calcium concentration? I personally would not use much if any calcium chloride as fertilizers usually already contain a bit chloride as contaminants although i think it should be not much of a problem as long as you don't overdo it. Are you mixing your solution from Individual salts or do you use premixed fertilizer and amend it with calcium nitrate? And what substrate are you using if any? Tap water or r/o? Because in a limed peat based substrate there is already some calcium available. I use a self mixed and limed substrate similar to that of Dr Bugbee but with 25% vermiculite and 25% perlite instead of 50% vermiculite. I mix my nutrient solution with r/o water from individual salts (potassium nitrate, calcium nitrate, ammonium phosphate etc.) with a calcium concentration of ~70-80 ppm, and my runoff water is usually around 160-200 ppm calcium (tested with a calcium titration water test) over the course of an entire grow. So i could get away with even less calcium in the nutrient solution.


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## Vizzaro (Jan 28, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> It is common for the seed leaves to yellow and fall off, so i wouldn't worry that much and see how the plants are developing. Just be careful to not over water those young plants. Let the pots get a bit dry between the feedings the first times so the substrate doesn't stay wet all the time. Have you checked the ph of the substrate a few days after mixing?


I have no way of testing the pH of the media as I only have a EC meter and pH meter for the water solution. I test the water pH and EC after adding the nutrients to the water. And I test the EC of the run-off to make sure it doesn't get too high. I always make sure the pots are dry/light in weight before I water again.

And as you can see one of my younger plants had it's growth stunted after transplanting. My oldest plant is starting to turn a like green and the lower part of it is yellowing. And I don't know why that is. Maybe I didn't add enough dolomite like to the mix?

I tried to follow Dr. Bugbees recipe. And 40g per cubic foot looked like a small amount of Dolomite Lime and the gypsum was even less at only 10g per cubic foot. I also purchased the wrong kind of Dolomite Lime, Dr. Bugbees uses a powder Dolomite Lime and mine looks more like tiny rocks or salt. Not sure of that plays a role in why my plants are starting to turn yellow a bit. Or maybe I'm just freaking out I'm not sure. My nutrients solution has an EC of 1.3 should I bump it up to 1.5?

I am using my tap water. It has an EC of 0.5.


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## Audiofilet (Jan 28, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I have no way of testing the pH of the media as I only have a EC meter and pH meter for the water solution. I test the water pH and EC after adding the nutrients to the water. And I test the EC of the run-off to make sure it doesn't get too high. I always make sure the pots are dry/light in weight before I water again.
> 
> And as you can see one of my younger plants had it's growth stunted after transplanting. My oldest plant is starting to turn a like green and the lower part of it is yellowing. And I don't know why that is. Maybe I didn't add enough dolomite like to the mix?
> 
> ...


Yes it plays a big role if the lime is not powdered since it takes very very long for it to completely react. Longer than the few months till harvest. So it may well be that your substrate is too acidic since not enough was neutralized by the lime. I can't get powdered dolomitic lime too, so what i do is grind it with an electric coffee grinder (they are very cheap) until it is fine powdered. This works very well.
You can measure the ph of the runoff water. It does not reflect the actual ph of the root zone as precisely as a slurry test or a substrate electrode, but it will tell you an approximate value and if it is too acidic or not.
I would not up the EC. They don't need that much nutrients at this stage and maybe even never if you fertilize each time you water (constant feed). As they grow bigger they take up more water. So more water at the same EC taken up=more nutrients taken up.
So please measure your runoff PH and EC and then we will know more, if it is out of range or not and if so there are several ways to correct that. And please make sure your ph electrode is calibrated to get an accurate reading.


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## Vizzaro (Jan 28, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> Yes it plays a big role if the lime is not powdered since it takes very very long for it to completely react. Longer than the few months till harvest. So it may well be that your substrate is too acidic since not enough was neutralized by the lime. I can't get powdered dolomitic lime too, so what i do is grind it with an electric coffee grinder (they are very cheap) until it is fine powdered. This works very well.
> You can measure the ph of the runoff water. It does not reflect the actual ph of the root zone as precisely as a slurry test or a substrate electrode, but it will tell you an approximate value and if it is too acidic or not.
> I would not up the EC. They don't need that much nutrients at this stage and maybe even never if you fertilize each time you water (constant feed). As they grow bigger they take up more water. So more water at the same EC taken up=more nutrients taken up.
> So please measure your runoff PH and EC and then we will know more, if it is out of range or not and if so there are several ways to correct that. And please make sure your ph electrode is calibrated to get an accurate reading.


I've been thinking about how to grind my Dolomite Lime into a powder and I'll look into an electric coffee grinder. I found a place where I can buy a 25Ibs bag of powder Dolomite Lime for $7.25 and I'm thinking about buying it rather than buying a $20 grinder haha.

I tried to grind down a little bit of the Dolomite lime I have and I sprinkled a little bit on the top of my media then I fertigated my plants again. I hope that helps. I didn't test the pH run-off and I'll definitely do that next time. 

Also with adding the Dolomite Lime to the media when making it do I have to wait a while before using it? I know the gypsum is a slow release but I was curious how long the Dolomite lime takes for me to notice a difference or for the plants to uptake the calcium.


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## Audiofilet (Jan 29, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I've been thinking about how to grind my Dolomite Lime into a powder and I'll look into an electric coffee grinder. I found a place where I can buy a 25Ibs bag of powder Dolomite Lime for $7.25 and I'm thinking about buying it rather than buying a $20 grinder haha.
> 
> I tried to grind down a little bit of the Dolomite lime I have and I sprinkled a little bit on the top of my media then I fertigated my plants again. I hope that helps. I didn't test the pH run-off and I'll definitely do that next time.
> 
> Also with adding the Dolomite Lime to the media when making it do I have to wait a while before using it? I know the gypsum is a slow release but I was curious how long the Dolomite lime takes for me to notice a difference or for the plants to uptake the calcium.


I would let it react for a few days but for this to occur a bit of moisture is necessary so it is best to slightly wet the mixture and mix it once again. But i think it should also work if it is directly used as long as it is thoroughly mixed since it doesn't take that long to neutralize if using powdered lime. Just water sufficiently after transplanting.
And yeah if you are able to get the powdered lime it is for sure a lot easier than to grind it.


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## Vizzaro (Jan 31, 2021)

Okay so I did a up-pot today into a 2 gallon pot from a 1 gallon. My plants roots where everywhere I did not expect all those roots. I added some more Dolomite lime and then fertigated. My pH run-off was 5.4 and my EC was 1.4. The pH of the water solution was 6.0 and the EC was 1.3. I'm also noticing new growth has burnt tips. I'm at a loss of what is happening here.


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## Overgrowtho (Jan 31, 2021)

Personally I am not starting with such a high EC on small plants... that might be the reason for your burn. 

My results have been amazing so far. Apart from that above difference, I have no access to 20-10-20 since I am in Asia (thus using another hydro nute AB instead). 

Also I am using a weekly compost tea. The Bugbee method has been serving me well, even including these differences.


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## Vizzaro (Jan 31, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Personally I am not starting with such a high EC on small plants... that might be the reason for your burn.
> 
> My results have been amazing so far. Apart from that above difference, I have no access to 20-10-20 since I am in Asia (thus using another hydro nute AB instead).
> 
> Also I am using a weekly compost tea. The Bugbee method has been serving me well, even including these differences.


What EC do you start with? I have been giving this plant around the same EC everytime I fertigate, even the smaller plants get the same EC. 

I'm doing my best to stay as close to Dr. Bugbees method. His video never specifies anything about varying EC's during different stages of the plants life, only to give it an EC ~1.3 and make sure the run-off doesn't get too high.


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## bernie344 (Jan 31, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> What EC do you start with? I have been giving this plant around the same EC everytime I fertigate, even the smaller plants get the same EC.
> 
> I'm doing my best to stay as close to Dr. Bugbees method. His video never specifies anything about varying EC's during different stages of the plants life, only to give it an EC ~1.3 and make sure the run-off doesn't get too high.


Its safe to say not to feed 1.3 initially but to build up to it.


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## Vizzaro (Jan 31, 2021)

bernie344 said:


> Its safe to say not to feed 1.3 initially but to build up to it.


So what's a good starting EC and how and when do I work up to 1.3?


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## bernie344 (Feb 1, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> So what's a good starting EC and how and when do I work up to 1.3?


3rd week 0.6
4th week 0.8
5th week 1.0
6th week 1.3
continue to harvest


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## Audiofilet (Feb 1, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Okay so I did a up-pot today into a 2 gallon pot from a 1 gallon. My plants roots where everywhere I did not expect all those roots. I added some more Dolomite lime and then fertigated. My pH run-off was 5.4 and my EC was 1.4. The pH of the water solution was 6.0 and the EC was 1.3. I'm also noticing new growth has burnt tips. I'm at a loss of what is happening here.


Ok, your ph seems good, it will rise a bit the next days/weeks since the dolomite will continue to react. You could dilute the nutrient solution a bit to an EC of 1,0 if you want but i wouldn't worry too much as they are now at a size where their growth will soon take off and they will rapidly building bio mass. What kind of light do you have?


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## Vizzaro (Feb 1, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> Ok, your ph seems good, it will rise a bit the next days/weeks since the dolomite will continue to react. You could dilute the nutrient solution a bit to an EC of 1,0 if you want but i wouldn't worry too much as they are now at a size where their growth will soon take off and they will rapidly building bio mass. What kind of light do you have?


I have a 240w Kingbrite 3500k + epistar 660nm. I've been also trying to find a good VPD chart to make sure that's all in order. But there are so many different ones that give different VPD's. My plant is still a light green and 2 bottom leaves are getting necrosis and falling off. I hope it bounces back from whatever is wrong with it.


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## DaynkWigglez (Feb 3, 2021)

Very good info on this topic. I also replied to another topic similar to this one on here. 

Current set up - 

**2×4 closet grow for veg running (1) 100 watt S1000 Bloomspect quantum board + (1) Unit Farm UF2000 100w QB 
(will rotate in an additional 240w Yuanhui LM301B + 660nm Epistar reds once seedlings and clones take off) 
**4×4 Grow tent for flower running (1) 240w Kingbrite Samsung QB with LM301H / Epistar UV / Epi 660 / Epi IR + (1) 250w Viparspectra P2500 QB



Being a newb and now working from home I've got nothing but time on my hands. Im on my 3rd grow and wanted to change things up a bit while at the same time keeping it as simple as possible with resources/nutes that I already have. (Taking up space on the grow closet shelf lol) Not because I was unhappy with my current ways...just that the Bugbee vid everyone's referencing really intrigued me...so why not change it up a bit? So far my most productive grow has been with 30% Roots Organic soil/30% peat moss/20% ewc/20% perlite + Dr. Earth honegrown veg and flower girl bloom nutes. I really like how the peat lightened the medium weight that in turn helped me get a better feel for watering schedules and amounts. So why not try out this 30 + years "proven" 50 peat/50 vermiculite process? I already have a bunch of Jack's 20-20-20, gypsum, and dolo lime on hand too. I took a detour the first few weeks of veg because I decided to try my hand at mainlining these Moby Dick and G-13 clones. That of course added a good bit of time to veg but hopefully in the end it'll be worth it! Again, keeping it simple...just using his recipe as a base and will monitor pH and PPM. The growth really exploded soon after they recovered from the mainlining. The one on the right has only coco loco and 20% perlite. I plan on running Jack's bloom 10-30-20 or Flower Fuel on the Bugbee media and other non organic grows. I REALLY am liking the results from the Flower Fuel btw...Maybe I was just doing something wrong but the flower fuel did WAY better in flower on my 2nd grow vs the ladies being fed FF Tiger Bloom. That and I also want to try and conserve my pH up..I just got it lol...literally had to add 3-3.5 tsp per gallon of pH up to get my pH where it needs to be when adding 2.5-3 tsp per gallon of the Tiger Bloom. Anyway...getting off topic...I will definitely let y'all know how the Bugbee recipe pans out. So far so great!


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## Audiofilet (Feb 3, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I have a 240w Kingbrite 3500k + epistar 660nm. I've been also trying to find a good VPD chart to make sure that's all in order. But there are so many different ones that give different VPD's. My plant is still a light green and 2 bottom leaves are getting necrosis and falling off. I hope it bounces back from whatever is wrong with it.


What is your temperature and rhumdity? And what distance is the light away? Because if it is very close it could be too much with leds.


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## JonCreighton (Feb 4, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> So this is a different approach to fertilization (to save the environment etc.) than what's recommended in his cannabis video and not of big relevance if fertigating in a soilless peat based substrate with 10-20 % runoff.


im running straight hydro w RO water... trying to go no flush of the whole system as that will cause me some problems.

in the past iv created his soil mix.. and ran the nuits from the video... simple, easy, really a great technique... the goal was to basically recreate that from a hydro perspective...

first thought was to just run the same nutrients as w the soil mix... then i read the paper on closes system hydroponics and it seemed like the mixes were different. lots more K. so iv really spent the last few weeks trying to reconcile them. why reccomend a 2-1-2 when all of the mixes from the paper have much more K.... basically trying to figure out.. if bugbee were growing cananbis in hydroponics. how would he do it? 

flushing out 10-20% of the solution is something i could do regularly... i wonder if u have any input on if i were to simply recreate my regular mix.. 2-1-2 w similar c.. and basically copy the watering techingque previously used.... as in flush out 20% of the cycling solution at feeding intervals. theres still a lot of blind spots in my knowledge here... the cation exchange u mentioned for one... so any input would be helpfull.


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## Vizzaro (Feb 6, 2021)

Audiofilet said:


> What is your temperature and rhumdity? And what distance is the light away? Because if it is very close it could be too much with leds.


Temp during the day is 78°f - 81°f with 70% RH and at night it can get as cold as 65°f.
And I keep my light at least 18 inches away from my biggest plant.


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## Audiofilet (Feb 7, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Temp during the day is 78°f - 81°f with 70% RH and at night it can get as cold as 65°f.
> And I keep my light at least 18 inches away from my biggest plant.


Ok that looks good. All values seem reasonable fine so your plants should soon take off.


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## BonnMac (Mar 15, 2021)

Curious about the outcomes and/or the ongoing grows using this media mix and 20-10-20 food. 
Success?


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## kingromano (Mar 15, 2021)

i


BonnMac said:


> Curious about the outcomes and/or the ongoing grows using this media mix and 20-10-20 food.
> Success?


it's a good veg ratio
for flower you need 20 15 40, with a pk 13 14


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## BonnMac (Mar 15, 2021)

kingromano said:


> i
> 
> it's a good veg ratio
> for flower you need 20 15 40, with a pk 13 14


Thanks for that tip.
And that’s growing in 50% peat and 50% vermiculite with the mineral additives he recommends?


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 16, 2021)

You can follow Bugbee's advice for 20-10-20 all the way or you can try other ratios. In my country we dont have access to 20-10-20 so I'm using a general bloom and flower hydro nute respectively. So far they work really well with the medium/amendments he recommends.... will update again in a couple months after flower.


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## Vizzaro (Mar 16, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> Curious about the outcomes and/or the ongoing grows using this media mix and 20-10-20 food.
> Success?


I am currently using the Dr. Bugbee mix. 50% Peat Moss, 50% Vermiculite, Dolomite Lime, Gypsum. I have 4 plants in a 3x3x6 grow tent and the plants are in 3 gallon pots and they are growing fast. Today I have flipped the light cycle to 12/12 to start flower. Every time I water the plants I do so with the nutrient solution of Peter's Profession Peat-Light Special 20-10-20. And making sure my runoff is around 1.5 EC. 

These 2 pictures are from today.


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 16, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I am currently using the Dr. Bugbee mix. 50% Peat Moss, 50% Vermiculite, Dolomite Lime, Gypsum. I have 4 plants in a 3x3x6 grow tent and the plants are in 3 gallon pots and they are growing fast. Today I have flipped the light cycle to 12/12 to start flower. Every time I water the plants I do so with the nutrient solution of Peter's Profession Peat-Light Special 20-10-20. And making sure my runoff is around 1.5 EC.
> 
> These 2 pictures are from today.


Thanks for your update. In time, please keep us posted on how your flower turns out and how that may compare to previous methods you've used? Thanks


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## BonnMac (Mar 18, 2021)

Thanks Overgrow & Vizzaro for both sharing your updates.


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## JonCreighton (Mar 20, 2021)

kingromano said:


> i
> 
> it's a good veg ratio
> *for flower you need 20 15 40, with a pk 13 14*


Id like to see ur citations on this..... im not knocking it.. theeye would be helpfull for me

iv run the basic bugbee 20-10-20 w some adjustments for calmag sul ect.. and side by sided it as best i could w a mix aorund what most people use in flower... basically what u mentioned. 2-1-4ish... the yield was basically the same.. idk about quality it all seemed basically the same.


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## kingromano (Mar 20, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> Id like to see ur citations on this..... im not knocking it.. theeye would be helpfull for me
> 
> iv run the basic bugbee 20-10-20 w some adjustments for calmag sul ect.. and side by sided it as best i could w a mix aorund what most people use in flower... basically what u mentioned. 2-1-4ish... the yield was basically the same.. idk about quality it all seemed basically the same.


my answer was maybe a bit irrelevant
20-15-40 is a ratio for recirculating hydro ( rockwool..)

bugbee's medium is made of peat at 50%
peat has some cec, like coco, meaning it bind some elements and need special ratios
from what i see yeah 20-10-20 is a good ratio for soil in recirculation

as long plants are lushy green, not too dark or light without deficiencies its the right ratio
there is many ways to skin a cat with nutrient ratios, the balance is what is important (manufacturers test their nutrients before selling and nutrient must be in the right balance)

i think bruce knows his shit


----------



## 7CardBud (Mar 21, 2021)

I'm running a 7-15-15 with 8% Ca and 4% Mg in flower, The 1-2-2 NPK and 4-2-1 K-Ca-Mg ratios seem very well suited for flowering, I'm very happy with the results.


----------



## Overgrowtho (Mar 31, 2021)

I've got a new thread up where I am showing my automated system for fertigation with Bugbee's medium and trying to dial in the right amount of solution per day....





My 99% fully automated grow. Finally added the fertigation part! How much to fertigate per plant per day?


Here it is. I'm running Dr. Bugbee's formula of soil-less mix and I've got a 200 litre reservoir connected to a an RV/Yacht pump and wifi irrigation timer/soil moisture sensor. I'm using smart plugs, co2 wifi controller, wifi hydrometer, infrared remote, dehumidifier and webcam. All is working...



www.rollitup.org


----------



## JonCreighton (Apr 1, 2021)

kingromano said:


> my answer was maybe a bit irrelevant
> 20-15-40 is a ratio for recirculating hydro ( rockwool..)
> 
> bugbee's medium is made of peat at 50%
> ...


I been trying to square his 20-10-20 recommendation w his paper on nutrients in reciculating hydroponics. hydro reccomendations are more to the 20-10-40 side. it has to be the cation exchnage i cant really think of any other reason and i been thinking about it a while lol.


----------



## JonCreighton (Apr 1, 2021)

7CardBud said:


> I'm running a 7-15-15 with 8% Ca and 4% Mg in flower, The 1-2-2 NPK and 4-2-1 K-Ca-Mg ratios seem very well suited for flowering, I'm very happy with the results.


holy smokes thats a lot of phosphorus. any reason going so high w that? 

im over here working w nitric and battery acid and shit to keep my P down....


----------



## kingromano (Apr 1, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> I been trying to square his 20-10-20 recommendation w his paper on nutrients in reciculating hydroponics. hydro reccomendations are more to the 20-10-40 side. it has to be the cation exchnage i cant really think of any other reason and i been thinking about it a while lol.


yes
but this ratio is for early bloom
a pk booster (13-14) must be used with after week 2/3 until the end, increasing the ratio of pk over the base slowly
20-10-40 will give phosphorous defiency under high intensity light around week 3 because thats the moment they eat the most P


----------



## 7CardBud (Apr 1, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> holy smokes thats a lot of phosphorus. any reason going so high w that?
> 
> im over here working w nitric and battery acid and shit to keep my P down....


I don't think it's that high, a lot of people push for 1-3-2 ratio in flower.


----------



## kingromano (Apr 2, 2021)

7CardBud said:


> I don't think it's that high, a lot of people push for 1-3-2 ratio in flower.


for soil
in hydro its too high imo


----------



## Vizzaro (Apr 19, 2021)

Here is another update on my grow. I am 33 days into flower.


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## Overgrowtho (Apr 19, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Here is another update on my grow. I am 33 days into flower.


Those are looking great to me bro. How do you feel about em? Packing on a lot of weight yah? Are you happy?

Mine are about 25 days along in flower in these 2 photos:


And here is a photo from about 20 days along in flower.


As you can see I am battling with a height issue and overgrowth (lol my moniker). They were too big for the flower chamber when I put em in here. So I had to cut off the tops. This caused a lot of stretching from sub branches. And they are super close to the light. Like 10-12 inches. I havent noticed much of any bleaching. But I am being careful and trying to super crop (bend branches to be less tall) as much as reasonable.

Overall I think the growth with this method has been EXPLOSIVE. And I am super psyched to see how much weight can be packed on now that I'm entering that phase of bloom cycle.... I am really worried and annoyed that they are too tall tho, I need to watch em carefully!

I'm also loving that my whole fertigation is 100% automated now. They get about 3 litres per day x 4 plants. On a timer, 1.5 in the morning when lights come on and then .75 some hours later an .75 some hours later. They seem super happy and always praying. I can tell you: one hell of a lot easier, more reliable and explosive and cleaner than my previous grow which was organics.


----------



## Vizzaro (Apr 19, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Those are looking great to me bro. How do you feel about em? Packing on a lot of weight yah? Are you happy?
> 
> Mine are about 25 days along in flower in these 2 photos:
> View attachment 4882544
> ...


Wow that looks like a lot of bud you got growing there. Sorry to hear about the height issues, hopefully it doesn't become a big problem. How much was your auto watering system, I am thinking about getting one.


----------



## kodak91 (Apr 19, 2021)

I wanna try Dr. Bugbee mix. How much Dolomite Lime and Gypsum should i add per gallon?

Also can i change vermiculite for perlite?


----------



## Vizzaro (Apr 19, 2021)

kodak91 said:


> I wanna try Dr. Bugbee mix. How much Dolomite Lime and Gypsum should i add per gallon?
> 
> Also can i change vermiculite for perlite?


Per gallon? Going to have to do some math here...~2.6g of Dolomite Lime per Gallon of Medium and ~1.3g of Gypsum per gallon of medium. I think that's right.....

And yes you can change the vermiculite for perlite but then it wouldn't be the "Dr. Bugbee mix". Also you would need to buy silica since you wouldn't be getting it from the vermiculite anymore.


----------



## kodak91 (Apr 19, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Per gallon? Going to have to do some math here...~2.6g of Dolomite Lime per Gallon of Medium and ~1.3g of Gypsum per gallon of medium. I think that's right.....


thanks. I said per gallon, but im actually from europe  



> And yes you can change the vermiculite for perlite but then it wouldn't be the "Dr. Bugbee mix". Also you would need to buy silica since you wouldn't be getting it from the vermiculite anymore.


Wait.. But perlite is 72% Silicon dioxide, thats silica.


----------



## Vizzaro (Apr 19, 2021)

Also my math was wrong on the Dolomite Lime I was thing 20g when I did my math when its actually 40g so its 5.3g per gallon. Also you need to take into consideration that Peat is very acidic for a media and adding vermiculite brings the pH of the media up a bit to ~4.5pH and the 40g of Lime per cubic foot of medium brings the pH up to 5.5. I don't know if perlite would bring the pH of the medium up or not and if it doesn't then you would need to maybe add more Lime to bring pH up but I'm not sure how much more to be honest.


----------



## Vizzaro (Apr 19, 2021)

kodak91 said:


> thanks. I said per gallon, but im actually from europe
> 
> 
> 
> Wait.. But perlite is 72% Silicon dioxide, thats silica.


Yes you are correct and that I did not know to be honest. And makes sense why a lot of people use perlite. Thanks for teaching me something new.


----------



## kodak91 (Apr 19, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Also my math was wrong on the Dolomite Lime I was thing 20g when I did my math when its actually 40g so its 5.3g per gallon. Also you need to take into consideration that Peat is very acidic for a media and adding vermiculite brings the pH of the media up a bit to ~4.5pH and the 40g of Lime per cubic foot of medium brings the pH up to 5.5. I don't know if perlite would bring the pH of the medium up or not and if it doesn't then you would need to maybe add more Lime to bring pH up but I'm not sure how much more to be honest.


So thats about 10g/L Dolomite Lime and 0,35g/L Gypsum, right?

I rather use perlite since it drains much better, less chance to overwater.


----------



## Vizzaro (Apr 19, 2021)

kodak91 said:


> So thats about 10g/L Dolomite Lime and 0,35g/L Gypsum, right?
> 
> I rather use perlite since it drains much better, less chance to overwater.


No. It's 40g (Lime) per 28.3 L of medium so ~1.4g/L. 

Oh okay. I have yet to have an overwatering issue using vermiculite.


----------



## F2GD (Apr 20, 2021)

I am just starting out my own grow and getting everything ready. I have made up 2.83L (yeah, I got lucky) of the 50/50 vermiculite to peat. So my math should be pretty simple. I need 4 grams of the dolomite lime and 1 gram of gypsum. Should I grind the dolomite in a mortar/pestle? The only gypsum I can find is powdered not the pellets.

My mixtures PH is currently ~4.5 (only have a colour test), my tap water is quite basic at 8-8.5

Now I have the fun job of finding 20-10-20 in Ottawa. I managed to find some 10-5-10 by jiffy hydro which my hardware store says will take a week to get here (it is 0.10% ammonical nitrogen, 3.50% nitrate nitrogen and 6.40% urea Nitrogen, 5% calcium, 4% magnesium and 8.3% combined sulfur) I am wondering if that will work because this is soilless and this has urea. It's 6 Canadian rupees per 256g. Think this will work? If you have any ideas on where to get 20-10-20 I am all ears.

As for an ec meter I have found 2 on Amazon the more expensive one: https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B008SOPO10/ref=ox_sc_act_image_4?smid=A3DWYIK6Y9EEQB&psc=1 and the cheaper one (same company): https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B01FXNNKJ6/ref=ox_sc_act_image_2?smid=A3QAPY9G9NB32H&psc=1

unfortunately I do not have the cash for the one Dr bugbee uses. From the reviews I think either of these is acceptable but I welcome feedback.

As for pH testing I found this one to use instead of the colour solution method, I believe I would need to buy some pH tester storage solution to keep it working long term? https://www.amazon.ca/gp/aw/d/B071XFRLSN/ref=ox_sc_act_image_1?smid=A278BXSS6J30Y9&psc=1


----------



## Overgrowtho (Apr 20, 2021)

kodak91 said:


> I wanna try Dr. Bugbee mix. How much Dolomite Lime and Gypsum should i add per gallon?
> 
> Also can i change vermiculite for perlite?


Can find more details of it in these threads:





dosatron for a small garden?


I am working to fully automate my garden as much as possible. I would like to add a dosatron in line to my water supply for fertigating the soiless medium. I am wondering which model of an entry-level dosatron would be suitable for a small garden of up to 6 plants? And whether i need two for...



www.rollitup.org









My 99% fully automated grow. Finally added the fertigation part! How much to fertigate per plant per day?


Here it is. I'm running Dr. Bugbee's formula of soil-less mix and I've got a 200 litre reservoir connected to a an RV/Yacht pump and wifi irrigation timer/soil moisture sensor. I'm using smart plugs, co2 wifi controller, wifi hydrometer, infrared remote, dehumidifier and webcam. All is working...



www.rollitup.org





It came out to about 100$ only for everything needed from Aliexpress...!


----------



## BonnMac (Apr 20, 2021)

kodak91 said:


> So thats about 10g/L Dolomite Lime and 0,35g/L Gypsum, right?
> 
> I rather use perlite since it drains much better, less chance to overwater.


You can use perlite, nothing wrong with that, but as others have pointed out it’s not the same as vermiculite which Bugbee recommends for its cation exchange and silica benefit. Yes. You do have to be careful in the early stages of plant development of overwatering but by the time you hit flower you won’t be worried at all.


----------



## Overgrowtho (Apr 20, 2021)

I'm planning my next run. I wonder if with this method, using 40 gallons of medium instead of 20 gallons will show improvement? Or maybe doesn't even matter for soiless medium??


----------



## vostok (Apr 20, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Hi, is anyone here working with Dr Bruce Bugbee's system/research from Uni of Utah? He specializes in Cannabis and advises NASA how to grow on Mars.
> 
> He advises to use 50% vermiculite and 50% peat moss for explosive growth (a bit of gypsum and dolomite added in only).
> 
> ...


I'm a fan of Bugbee and looked close at his recipe but I'm 100% organic and the price of that stuff around here is too much 
but I'd like to follow along if you do his recipe


----------



## BonnMac (Apr 20, 2021)

F2GD said:


> I am just starting out my own grow and getting everything ready. I have made up 2.83L (yeah, I got lucky) of the 50/50 vermiculite to peat. So my math should be pretty simple. I need 4 grams of the dolomite lime and 1 gram of gypsum. Should I grind the dolomite in a mortar/pestle? The only gypsum I can find is powdered not the pellets.
> 
> My mixtures PH is currently ~4.5 (only have a colour test), my tap water is quite basic at 8-8.5
> 
> ...


I’m in Vancouver and had a hell of a time tracking down 20-10-20.
I found some “orchid fertilizer” that had that exact NPK on Amazon but I may have bought the last of it. At least, for that particular product.

Anyway, I just checked Amazon.ca again and found this:






J R Peters Inc 52524 Jacks Classic No.1.5 20-10-20 Citrus Food Fertilizer : Amazon.ca: Patio, Lawn & Garden


Find products from J R Peters Inc at low prices. Shop online for barbecues, mowers, garden tools, generators, snow blowers and more at Amazon.ca



www.amazon.ca





Seems a little pricey, though.


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## F2GD (Apr 20, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> I’m in Vancouver and had a hell of a time tracking down 20-10-20.
> I found some “orchid fertilizer” that had that exact NPK on Amazon but I may have bought the last of it. At least, for that particular product.
> 
> Anyway, I just checked Amazon.ca again and found this:
> ...


I found some!!! Https://www.Jonsplantfactory.com/product/20-10-20/ just ordered myself 2kg

Also I was thinking about that citrus one then I checked the label and it's using urea of the nitrogen and I don't want to deal with that


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## Overgrowtho (Apr 22, 2021)

Would you guys say it is better to use a 2x 10 gallon pot of Bugbee's mix instead of 2x 5 gallon pots? Does more room for the roots equate to better yields/growth? Or there is no real difference for a soiless medium??


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## Arkos (Apr 22, 2021)

It has always been a saying, bigger roots bigger fruit's but it might not be as simple as that with cannabis.

I like bigger wider pots because of the structure the plant takes instead of tall and narrow for example, cause that's how the plant will grow.


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## F2GD (Apr 22, 2021)

Also bigger pots mean you can water less frequently, prettying sure Dr bugbee covers that at some point in the main video


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## BonnMac (Apr 22, 2021)

F2GD said:


> I found some!!! Https://www.Jonsplantfactory.com/product/20-10-20/ just ordered myself 2kg
> 
> Also I was thinking about that citrus one then I checked the label and it's using urea of the nitrogen and I don't want to deal with that


No shit!?
They must have just brought that in because I’m constantly browsing their site.
Great find!
I love Jons.
Wish it was open on weekends.


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## F2GD (Apr 22, 2021)

Yeah I ordered it delivered to Ottawa. Worth the price lol. I can't find any stuff here. Hopefully it will get here Monday so I can start germinating.

Been trying to find someone locally who I can get 40g of dolomitic lime off of , I'm literally going to use 4g, the gypsum I have no clue for, can't find any tiny bags available.

Currently my tap water has a EC of 0.16ms and a pH of 8, the runoff of the mix comes out at a pH of 4.5, need that lime to bring it up


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## Chopshop697 (Apr 22, 2021)

I was thinking I should just buy a few 50lb bags of the Peters Pro Peat-Lite 20-10-20 from Allentown, divide it up into 5lb packs, and do the ebay thing. Just have to watch shipping regs because it's an oxidizer and can't go via air. I'd offer an RIU discount, of course....


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## BonnMac (Apr 22, 2021)

F2GD said:


> Yeah I ordered it delivered to Ottawa. Worth the price lol. I can't find any stuff here. Hopefully it will get here Monday so I can start germinating.
> 
> Been trying to find someone locally who I can get 40g of dolomitic lime off of , I'm literally going to use 4g, the gypsum I have no clue for, can't find any tiny bags available.
> 
> Currently my tap water has a EC of 0.16ms and a pH of 8, the runoff of the mix comes out at a pH of 4.5, need that lime to bring it up


I found dolomitic lime at Lowes. I don’t think it was listed online but I stumbled across it in one of their aisles in the garden section.


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## F2GD (Apr 22, 2021)

Chopshop697 said:


> I was thinking I should just buy a few 50lb bags of the Peters Pro Peat-Lite 20-10-20 from Allentown, divide it up into 5lb packs, and do the ebay thing. Just have to watch shipping regs because it's an oxidizer and can't go via air. I'd offer an RIU discount, of course....


That would be awesome, that's the hardest thing to find in Canada by far. 

The others like gypsum and dolomitic lime are just inconveniences cause you have to buy a massive bag of each, smallest bag I have seen is 2kg at Rona which is a 2h walk from me and they are currently oos


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## Chopshop697 (Apr 22, 2021)

Yeah, I have the big bags of lime and gypsum, and used less than 50g of each . Maybe I should ship 100g of each with every fertilizer order . Bugbee method starter pack...


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## F2GD (Apr 22, 2021)

Chopshop697 said:


> Yeah, I have the big bags of lime and gypsum, and used less than 50g of each . Maybe I should ship 100g of each with every fertilizer order . Bugbee method starter pack...


Heck I would pay you to send 20g of dol and 5 of gyp lettermail at this point if you were in canada . White powder in an envelope might look a little sketchy tho, and I need it faster than USPS can handle


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## F2GD (Apr 24, 2021)

How much water go you guys use? If you have a 1L pot thats bone dry do you add 1L of water?


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## Overgrowtho (Apr 25, 2021)

Did Bugbee say: aim for 20% runoff or something? Yes 1 litre for a 1 litre pot sounds pretty reasonable to saturate and get plenty (might be a bit much) runoff.

I've got mine automated in flower: 5 gallon pots are getting 3 litres per day (spread over 3 waterings). But just 2 litres every 2 days seemd like it was fine for veg.


----------



## Chopshop697 (Apr 25, 2021)

Holy balls! Anybody else having pH issues with the Bugbee Peat formula? I'm measuring pH of leachate after feeding a 1.3EC, 5.9pH solution. I wait 40 minutes after feed, drop 50ml of RO water through the pot, and my pH coming out the bottom is 4.7. Granted, this is the first feed after transplanting into the Peat-lite, but that's pretty damn low. I really don't want to cook these plants during this transplant. Looking to whip up a 10g Dolomite lime slurry in a hurry to top dress the pot, maybe a few neutral flushes? pH up and tap water? Not sure how to proceed. Don't want to give up on the peat just yet, but I'm a bit worried that I'm gonna fry my babies.

**EDIT** Umm, post #10, @JonCreighton says using Home Depot peat is a bad idea. I can now attest that this is a fact. HD peat is probably soaked in battery acid before shipping. If I play my cards right, I can get some coco bricks, rinse and buffer them, mix in my perlite (and vermiculite fwiw,) and re-transplant my babies before the roots start screaming. FML. Live and learn.


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## F2GD (Apr 25, 2021)

The dolomite is meant to raise that. Some that you buy is designed to be slow release. I'm assuming bugbee premakes his mix or he uses fine powder that quickly changes the pH. Without dolomite the peat mix is 4.5 with it it's meant to be 5.5. personally my water from the tap is 8, but when I feed it through without dolomite it reads 4.5

I am using pure Canadian uncompressed peat (I live in Canada) and my numbers seem to like up with bugbees. I am wondering if your peat was like a 2 or something stupid


----------



## Chopshop697 (Apr 25, 2021)

That's what I suspect. The craptastic Home Depot "peat" was probably really low. I did some small scale tests before mixing up the whole batch, and it landed in the mid 5s, which I thought would work. But I used the "shake small slurry, strain, and measure" method instead of the "water a pot to saturation, let it sit, and then dribble a bit of RO through" method to measure the ph. I don't think any amount of lime will save this, but I have 18 hours before I can get a load of coco. Maybe someone will come along and say definitively "just top dress with X grams of lime per liter of peat. It'll be fine." 
But 4.7....


----------



## F2GD (Apr 25, 2021)

Chopshop697 said:


> That's what I suspect. The craptastic Home Depot "peat" was probably really low. I did some small scale tests before mixing up the whole batch, and it landed in the mid 5s, which I thought would work. But I used the "shake small slurry, strain, and measure" method instead of the "water a pot to saturation, let it sit, and then dribble a bit of RO through" method to measure the ph. I don't think any amount of lime will save this, but I have 18 hours before I can get a load of coco. Maybe someone will come along and say definitively "just top dress with X grams of lime per liter of peat. It'll be fine."
> But 4.7....


My method for measuring is wack. I pour in tap water, collect the runoff, coffee filter, add colour pH test shake and look.


The pH of my water drops from an 8.5 to an 8 when it's sat for a few hours so something that's in it is breaking down. There is no new air getting in so it isn't co2


----------



## JonCreighton (Apr 26, 2021)

Chopshop697 said:


> That's what I suspect. The craptastic Home Depot "peat" was probably really low. I did some small scale tests before mixing up the whole batch, and it landed in the mid 5s, which I thought would work. But I used the "shake small slurry, strain, and measure" method instead of the "water a pot to saturation, let it sit, and then dribble a bit of RO through" method to measure the ph. I don't think any amount of lime will save this, but I have 18 hours before I can get a load of coco. Maybe someone will come along and say definitively "just top dress with X grams of lime per liter of peat. It'll be fine."
> But 4.7....


iv ran baking soda thru potted plants as a way to rasie the ph. i think it was bakin g soda just google raising ph of potted plants and see if thats what comes up. im pretty sure it was baking soda...

i tried using ph up products in the feed. basic ph up (potassium bicard) and potassium silicate. they did not seems to rasie the medium for any amount of time just a slighly higher runoff intially.


----------



## F2GD (Apr 26, 2021)

I just got my fertilizer today (yay) and when I add it to my water to 1.3ec the pH is around a 5-5.5 (down from , is that normal for running 20-10-20. When I run this though my mixture without dolomitic limestone it is coming out as a 4-4.9


----------



## kingromano (Apr 26, 2021)

F2GD said:


> I just got my fertilizer today (yay) and when I add it to my water to 1.3ec the pH is around a 5-5.5 (down from , is that normal for running 20-10-20. When I run this though my mixture without dolomitic limestone it is coming out as a 4-4.9


do you have soft water ?
limestone isnt solvable in water it's useless to try

5.0-5.5 is not so bad, with a bit of mixing does it climb ?


----------



## F2GD (Apr 26, 2021)

kingromano said:


> do you have soft water ?
> limestone isnt solvable in water it's useless to try
> 
> 5.0-5.5 is not so bad, with a bit of mixing does it climb ?


I dont have any limestone to add so that is my mixture of 50 peat, 50 vermiculite, and some gypsum (Mixture pH is 4.5 rn). Canadian tire is not doing any inperson orders and you cant order it from them online. I am trying to get some from other stores. It does not climb over time. My tapwater has an EC of 0.14. 

The emoji replaced that my tap water is usually 8 when its sat for 30 minutes (Fresh its 8.5)


----------



## kingromano (Apr 26, 2021)

F2GD said:


> I dont have any limestone to add so that is my mixture of 50 peat, 50 vermiculite, and some gypsum (Mixture pH is 4.5 rn). Canadian tire is not doing any inperson orders and you cant order it from them online. I am trying to get some from other stores. It does not climb over time. My tapwater has an EC of 0.14.
> 
> The emoji replaced that my tap water is usually 8 when its sat for 30 minutes (Fresh its 8.5)


i think you go wrong way with the limestone

0.14mS out of the tap is soft water. most nutrients are formulated for hard water (0.4-0.5mS).

bugbee's method is recirculative hydroponic. you need to get the calcium diluted in the soltution, not in the medium.
what you need to use with your soft water is a soft water formulation

for exemple ghe floraseries "soft water".. ionic soft water

personnaly i work with pure RO and my favorite line is "dutch pro hydro/coco RO/SO"
i mix it around 2.2mS with RO and diretly get ph 5.8

soft water nutrient lines contains more calcium/magnesium and also they are formulated to not bring the ph down


----------



## F2GD (Apr 26, 2021)

kingromano said:


> i think you go wrong way with the limestone


Limestone increases soil pH and stabilizes it. That's why it is used on lawns. As for soft water nutrients I will probably add some micronutrients to my water however as I already have 2kg of 20-10-20 that is what I am going to use. If it was just calcium and magnesium that was missing I would add cal/mag or epsom salts. 2.2 sounds way too high, idk how you are growing in that. 1.7 is the MAX for bloom


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## kingromano (Apr 26, 2021)

i use rockwool i feed between 2.0 to 2.5 depending on stage
my ph is always very stable or climbing a little bit, if i see it climb quickly i kniw i need to increase the feed from 0.1 points of EC

i discussed many times about this but if growers need to feed low EC in hydro its because they have salts accumulation in their medium.
so to counteract high runoff ec they feed lower EC.

its a crutch

i feed at higher EC because each feed gets a large runoff .. and i feed every hour so nutrients never accumulate

its a bit similar with bugbees method. pots filled with perlite/peat, top fed several times a day to runoff, recovering the runoff in a second reservoir to mix it again with the main reservoir.


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## kingromano (Apr 26, 2021)

you're in hydro bro
all nutrition is provided by fertigation

mixing calcar in your medium is not what you want

dolomite lime is what is diluted in tap water in hard water areas, some people in there would kill to have soft water, way better

i know because i use RO

so ... don't mix calcar in your medium
get a proper soft water nutrition


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## Chopshop697 (Apr 27, 2021)

Ok, I'm going to chill on the leachate pH, keep the peat, feed at the right levels to runoff, and see how it goes...


----------



## F2GD (Apr 27, 2021)

kingromano said:


> you're in hydro bro
> all nutrition is provided by fertigation
> 
> mixing calcar in your medium is not what you want
> ...


I am planning on adding Cal-mag + micros to my water up to 0.4ec then raise that to 1.3 with my fert. This way it is equivalent to hard tap water. Also by adding this I am diluting the acidic fertiliser I am using which will raise the pH to around 6.2 by my math, with the soil being at 5.5 this should make the mixture of the 2 be in the optimal range


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## kingromano (Apr 27, 2021)

if i may
i dont like calmag at all. bring no buffering at all from my experience,

its a headache to mix.
tell you one thing, everytime you will need to add 2ml of A and 2ml of B you will also need to add 0.5mL of calmag .. plus micros ??

i use recirculation in nft 

you dont need to pay attention to the ph of the soil, after a few waterings it will be the same as your feed

its hydro, not soil. you feed several times a day, thats how you get crazy growth rate, impossible to achieve in soil


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## kingromano (Apr 27, 2021)

Dutch Pro Hydro/Coco Bloom A + B ~ Reversed Osmose / Soft Water


Buy your Dutch Pro Hydro/Coco Bloom RO/SO online! Available in: 1 Liter and 5 Liter. Everything from Dutchpro at EUGardencenter.




www.eugardencenter.com





do you a favor, keep it simple and buy real fertilizer for soft water .. not calmag bulshi


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## F2GD (Apr 27, 2021)

I am not doing hydro, I am doing soil-less. There is no recirculation, it is hand watering. I am not using botanicare Cal-mag plus I am using Advanced nutrients Sensi Cal-Mag Xtra which already has the micronutrients in it. This is all for super small bonsai grows in Ikea ekets, not a massive plant. The water usage is well under 1L a day and I'll be mixing 2L at a time. Your methods for recirculation are fine, especially for larger scale, but this is nano scale stuff


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## F2GD (Apr 27, 2021)

kingromano said:


> Dutch Pro Hydro/Coco Bloom A + B ~ Reversed Osmose / Soft Water
> 
> 
> Buy your Dutch Pro Hydro/Coco Bloom RO/SO online! Available in: 1 Liter and 5 Liter. Everything from Dutchpro at EUGardencenter.
> ...


This is designed for water thats under a pH of 7.5, my water is basic at 8.5 but has a low ec. I am basically making a home brewed system of this using 20-10-20 for my major nutes and a predone mix for the cal mag fe and 20 amino acids


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## JonCreighton (Apr 29, 2021)

kingromano said:


> i think you go wrong way with the limestone
> 
> 0.14mS out of the tap is soft water. most nutrients are formulated for hard water (0.4-0.5mS).
> 
> ...


the 20-10-20 bugbee method is not for recirculating hydroponics. he wrote a paper on that in 2004 and its way different than the 20-10-20. he specifically states u should be watering to 10-20% perecent runoff. u can keep the intended rations without leaching the 10% off but it gets "tricky" in his words. and when u start to break down the 2004 paper u can see why.

the 20-10-20 he reccomndeds from his video has nothing bestides NPK in it. in almost any scenario i think ur going to need to add calcium magnesium and sulfer. hard tap water can come in around 80ppms i think. u would want something closer to 150ppm throughout the grow. so in an area wth soft tap water... lets say 40ppms. ur going to want tio be adding even more of the secndary nuitrents.

my reccomndations would be to grab some epsom salt (mag and sul). then some kind of cacium to wrok with the fertalizer u already have without chnagin the ratios too much. so i wouldnt use calcium nitrate cuz to achieve the amount of calcium u will need would push ur nitrogen level too high.

gypsom is calcium sulfate. that would work fine in either the medium or the feed. i put it in the medium to bugbees specs but ill also add to the feed slighly
calcium chloride is another option. u could use those two or a combo of those two w ur 20-10-20 to get to the calcium levels needed.\

might be easier to get a 10-10-20 and use calium nitrate. when u add the calcium nitrate it shoiuld get u to addequate calcium and adequate nitrogen


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## F2GD (Apr 29, 2021)

Thanks for the reply, yeah I was getting confused cause I was sure his video method was not for recirculation. What do you think about using that sensi cal-mag extra stuff? I can drop the spec sheet in here if you like. My thoughts were it is basically premixed so I can get those micro nutes my water is missing since it's between 0.14 and 0.17, I currently have a mix of 20-10-20 in my water that's at .8-.9 EC and my plan was to add the Cal-mag mix to it to bring it up to 1.30, (leaving the water being .55-.65 EC before the 20-10-20). Its for a freshly germed seed rn and I am waiting on the Cal-mag so I think it should be fine for the week before it arrives


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## JonCreighton (Apr 29, 2021)

F2GD said:


> Thanks for the reply, yeah I was getting confused cause I was sure his video method was not for recirculation. What do you think about using that sensi cal-mag extra stuff? I can drop the spec sheet in here if you like. My thoughts were it is basically premixed so I can get those micro nutes my water is missing since it's between 0.14 and 0.17, I currently have a mix of 20-10-20 in my water that's at .8-.9 EC and my plan was to add the Cal-mag mix to it to bring it up to 1.30, (leaving the water being .55-.65 EC before the 20-10-20). Its for a freshly germed seed rn and I am waiting on the Cal-mag so I think it should be fine for the week before it arrives


yes that sounds good. ur ion the right track with how ur thinking.


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## JonCreighton (Apr 29, 2021)

kingromano said:


> Dutch Pro Hydro/Coco Bloom A + B ~ Reversed Osmose / Soft Water
> 
> 
> Buy your Dutch Pro Hydro/Coco Bloom RO/SO online! Available in: 1 Liter and 5 Liter. Everything from Dutchpro at EUGardencenter.
> ...


real fertiliser? bottled, mixed, with water added? no real feralizer fits that description 

as a general rule of thumb any pre mixed nuirtents should be avoided as u can find comparable products on the market without water for 90% cheaper. 

everyone should learn the salts. u will cut ur fertalizer bugbet by 90%, u can operate in any medium at any time, and u can tweak anything to yours or the plants specs. for the price of a very small amount of brain power.

coming from a different growing space im just blown away by the dishonestly and the lack of shame these cannabis nuitrent manufactures have.


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## F2GD (Apr 29, 2021)

Yeah I made sure to do my research first. And I do not have the storage space for the quantities of stuff you have to mix yourself. I had to buy 19kg of lime and I have used 10g, I use 1g of fertiliser per 2L of water and I had to get 2kg. I prefer the watered down Cal-mag stuff tbh cause you only need to add a tiny bit and I find it easier to work with if it is diluted.

I am planning on doing some nice small grows with a supergreenlab setup . If I get a bigger place and can grow bigger plants I 100% will do my own nutrients. My soil usage is less than 1 gallon a plant so I am working in really small quantities

I just haven't found a place that sells a kit of 40g bags of every micronutrient so you can easily make it yourself. If I have a magnesium deficiency down the road I will get Epsom salts to handle it if I have to, I was given 20g of gypsum so I should be good on calcium


**Edit, didn't realize you meant kingromano's "budlight-esk" fertilizer. Yeah I stay far away from that's stuff. My 2kg is powdered blue granules that's really fckn strong


Sidenote: if I ever make my own shitty watered down fertilizer to sell I will call it buds-light


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## JonCreighton (Apr 29, 2021)

F2GD said:


> Yeah I made sure to do my research first. And I do not have the storage space for the quantities of stuff you have to mix yourself. I had to buy 19kg of lime and I have used 10g, I use 1g of fertiliser per 2L of water and I had to get 2kg. I prefer the watered down Cal-mag stuff tbh cause you only need to add a tiny bit and I find it easier to work with if it is diluted.
> 
> I am planning on doing some nice small grows with a supergreenlab setup . If I get a bigger place and can grow bigger plants I 100% will do my own nutrients. My soil usage is less than 1 gallon a plant so I am working in really small quantities
> 
> ...


u rreally wouldnt need to get too crazy to start out. 

there is a jacks base out there thats like 5-20-40. mixed with calcium nitrate and epsom salt gets u basically to bugbees 20-10-20 w all nutirents included. 

but i hear u bout the scpoe of the grow and mixing small quantities of the salts can bee a problem also so just do you untill u want to upsize.


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## Vizzaro (May 2, 2021)

I am still going strong in my "Bugbee Method" grow. I got 3 Jack Herer and 1 SFV OG all in 3 gallon pots in a 3x3x6 grow tent using a 240W Kingbrite QB. Day 47 in flower.


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## F2GD (May 7, 2021)

I have an issue with my mix. It is way too acid in the low 5s, not matter what I water with the runoff is acidic (even 8.5ph)


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## Vizzaro (May 7, 2021)

F2GD said:


> I have an issue with my mix. It is way too acid in the low 5s, not matter what I water with the runoff is acidic (even 8.5ph)


This also happened to me and I think still is happening. My pH from runoff is always lower than the pH of water I have been putting in. And my plants seem to be doing fine.


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## kingromano (May 8, 2021)

check for salt accumulations
if the 
EC/ppm of the runoff > EC/ppm of the feed you have nutrient accumulated in the medium, it acidify root zone


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## F2GD (May 8, 2021)

kingromano said:


> check for salt accumulations
> if the
> EC/ppm of the runoff > EC/ppm of the feed you have nutrient accumulated in the medium, it acidify root zone


Yeah I am waiting until the soil dries fully but it's still reading 1.5 from feeding 1.3. I am getting 15-25% runoff each watering. I think I will try waiting an extra day between waterings


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## Southernontariogrower (May 8, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Anyone? Anyone?


You shluld look for powdered nutrients
Kelp 
Calcium nitrate
Mixed fertilzer 8-12-22
Epsom salt
Fulvic acid
Silica
And pk boost
Ph meter to 6.4 or 5.4 in flower
This cotains full diet , mixed at 40-50% recomended
Everything else as directed
Except fulvic acid, use a few drops every watering
Labs would help for carb and bacterium, under KNF farming


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## Overgrowtho (May 8, 2021)

Southernontariogrower said:


> You shluld look for powdered nutrients
> Kelp
> Calcium nitrate
> Mixed fertilzer 8-12-22
> ...


I understand that the Dr. Bugbee mix already has a lot of silica from the vermoculite. I'm using a hydro nute called Culture-S. Here is what it contains:

As a claimed "full spectrum" nutrient, I guess I have NOTHING to add when using this (veg) nute with Dr. Bugbee's medium? No need to add fulvic or kelp or anything?


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## Southernontariogrower (May 8, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> I understand that the Dr. Bugbee mix already has a lot of silica from the vermoculite. I'm using a hydro nute called Culture-S. Here is what it contains:
> View attachment 4896911
> As a claimed "full spectrum" nutrient, I guess I have NOTHING to add when using this (veg) nute with Dr. Bugbee's medium? No need to add fulvic or kelp or anything?


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## Southernontariogrower (May 8, 2021)

Guess l can save 12 dollars next time, thought it helps break salts up easier for microbes. Peat and perlite lime man from earliest recollections, humic is in peat but fulvic is pure form easier to uptake by plant. Helps with stressers and imalances, like ph down when water is10ph, l use it and it helps, if not ld be up to eyes with salt or chloramine. You might not need fulvic- humic acids but roots grow better imo. I feed medium or roots. Plant is byproduct of rootzone, imo only! Ps good chart


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## BonnMac (May 8, 2021)

50 days into flower following Bugbee’s method.
I too, have noticed a drop in PH level.
The tips of the leaves are turning brown. Is this normal at this stage?


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## Southernontariogrower (May 8, 2021)

Looking good, he knows how to grow, his methods are old school, reminds me of being a kid watching his youtube vids. Hes a real greenhouse man imo! Harley and Bruce should get together.


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## F2GD (May 8, 2021)

Southernontariogrower said:


> Looking good, he knows how to grow, his methods are old school, reminds me of being a kid watching his youtube vids. Hes a real greenhouse man imo! Harley and Bruce should get together.


Who is Harley?


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## Southernontariogrower (May 8, 2021)

Another guy with lots of info, RAW nutrient line. Bugbee has broader spectrum of info, but good feed is part of it. I take from many to make my own way. Everyone has something to offer, even noobs! Imo, only.


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## Vizzaro (May 9, 2021)

F2GD said:


> Who is Harley?


Harley Smith he also has a lot of youtube videos talking about plant biology and physiology. Very informative stuff.


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## BonnMac (May 9, 2021)

I've seen some of Harley's videos. He's the next best thing to university funded horticultural studies.


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## downhill21 (May 15, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Man you have to watch his videos like 2-3 times to grasp everything. And take notes. But I think it's well worth it. Not too many established universities are researching optimal cannabis cultivation in a scientific environment. This could be huge. Why not give it a try?


This is true.


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## downhill21 (May 15, 2021)

BIGBALLSJOE said:


> yes in fact in hydro medium you can't overwater by giving too much water
> 
> can happen in soil because it has a high water retention and low oxygen content
> if you water too much soil with small plants not already established they can show overwatering signs
> ...


Apologies for my own ocd, but I never heard Bugbee refer to a / his “method.” His lectures cover a pretty broad variety of factors influencing plant (cannabis) growth & shape. He devotes about 5-10 minutes of one video to Utah State’s conclusions on soil / medium. He does state that they found this “soil recipe” to be “best.” I’m trying it myself right now. First time out of soil for me so finding a steep learning curve. Good luck guys. I’ll watch closely & attentively.


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## downhill21 (May 15, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> I've seen some of Harley's videos. He's the next best thing to university funded horticultural studies.


Yeah. I agree. Free.


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## downhill21 (May 15, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> View attachment 4893188
> I am still going strong in my "Bugbee Method" grow. I got 3 Jack Herer and 1 SFV OG all in 3 gallon pots in a 3x3x6 grow tent using a 240W Kingbrite QB. Day 47 in flower.


Very nice!!


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## Southernontariogrower (May 15, 2021)

Vermiculite and perlite 50% 50% makes good medium too, lm a peat perlite lime guy myself. With vermiculite no need for extra silica.


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## BonnMac (May 15, 2021)

Chopping tomorrow.


Everything from now on, seems anticlimactic.
Thank you professor Bugbee for sharing your knowledge


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## V256.420 (May 15, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> Chopping tomorrow.
> 
> View attachment 4901972
> Everything from now on, seems anticlimactic.
> Thank you professor Bugbee for sharing your knowledge


That looks like some old school Lemon Skunk


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## Southernontariogrower (May 15, 2021)

pretty girl, didnt fade much or just pic?


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## BonnMac (May 16, 2021)

Southernontariogrower said:


> pretty girl, didnt fade much or just pic?


Thanks Southern Ontario.
I think I could have easily given her another week but the larger plant she was growing with is ready for harvest.

I live in a small space and the only place to dry is in the tent they’re both growing in, so I had to strike a balance - Have the older plant ripen a little bit longer in order for the smaller plant to mature adequately enough to be cut down at the same time.

This was my first grow and I now realize that my 2x4 tent can only grow one plant in a 5 gallon in a space that size, anyway. At least with this hybrid, which was Blue Mystic.


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## BonnMac (May 16, 2021)

V256.420 said:


> That looks like some old school Lemon Skunk


Blue Mystic.
Can you point me to a good source for Lemon Skunk?


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## F2GD (May 16, 2021)

My pH is still creeping down to 5. Watering every 3-4 days when the mix is dry. Water in us 6.5ec. I also found while watering the first but if runoff is around 1.3 but then if I go over 25% runoff it starts climbing up. Is this a sign of overwatering in terms of volume, or not flushing the ions out (see a purple spot showing low phosphorus but ik it has enough so I think the pH is affecting uptake)


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## V256.420 (May 16, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> Blue Mystic.
> Can you point me to a good source for Lemon Skunk?


Attitude seed bank...................DNA is the breeder. Been out of stock forever tho.


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## TOWERSGROW (May 17, 2021)

Chopshop697 said:


> Yeah, I have the big bags of lime and gypsum, and used less than 50g of each . Maybe I should ship 100g of each with every fertilizer order . Bugbee method starter pack...


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## TOWERSGROW (May 17, 2021)

Hello everybody, I’m new of this forum ...wanna share about Bugbee soil recipe :

I live in Europe so ,some of the components bugbee use can be different from mine even if
Dolomite is dolomite and Gypsum is Gypsum .
I want write about that cause my experience has been quite dramatic.

50%peat @3.5 ph
50%vermiculite 
Gypsum and dolomite 

I lost 3 cycle doing that .
My buds does not grow . Vegetative stage was fine. Roots grow quick in all that vermiculite .
But for 3 time I fucked up the flowering stage with this formula . 
full respect to mr Bugbee
It obviously something make it tricky .
For about 9month I believed in his recipe ( I followed with accuracy with the right dose of gypsum and dolomite ) but during flower the bud doesn’t grow and was a nightmare !!!
Its more than 20 years I grow .. I’m not perfect but even not a disaster .
Nutrients were balanced as chart ( canna nutrients) ph balanced .
2000w of HPS lights for 36 plants .temps and RH fine .
I think that I went in nutrients lockdown due to hard managing of soil ph ( that’s the more probable explanation) 
I turned back to my old soil and things get back normal ...but I ruined 3 harvest ... ( superfluffy buds ... ridicolous harvest .. to cry about ) 
Anyone had my same experience ? 

In the beginning I didn’t want to believe was the soil ,but after 3 flowering of shit I realized that..
Thank you


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## F2GD (May 17, 2021)

I am thinking of swapping the medium to Coco Coir + Dolomite + Gypsum to keep the Ph stable in the 5.5-6.5 range. Same nutes to water with. I might even scrap the dolomite as it won't be needed to neutralize any pH over time and I am supplementing my water with Cal Mag, the gypsum should break down by the time the plants hit bloom which is when the silica is needed. I got incredibly stunted growth (1/3rd normal rate) from this pH problem so I do need to find a solution quick


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## JonCreighton (May 17, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> Hello everybody, I’m new of this forum ...wanna share about Bugbee soil recipe :
> 
> I live in Europe so ,some of the components bugbee use can be different from mine even if
> Dolomite is dolomite and Gypsum is Gypsum .
> ...


bugbee is pulling secondary nuits from the medium (gypsom and dolemite) + tap water. if u got all that going on plus a regular cannabis nuitrents that already includes trhat stuff u could be having problems w nuitent sums.. calcium accumulation ect.
thats why he rccomnds the pete 20-10-20. it has no secondary nuits in it basically.


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## JonCreighton (May 17, 2021)

F2GD said:


> I am thinking of swapping the medium to Coco Coir + Dolomite + Gypsum to keep the Ph stable in the 5.5-6.5 range. Same nutes to water with. I might even scrap the dolomite as it won't be needed to neutralize any pH over time and I am supplementing my water with Cal Mag, the gypsum should break down by the time the plants hit bloom which is when the silica is needed. I got incredibly stunted growth (1/3rd normal rate) from this pH problem so I do need to find a solution quick


why not just add more dolimitc lime to the original mix. what was it 40g p/cuft go up to 50 or 60g cubic foot. i make the mix... run a little water thru. test the runoff. then add a little more lime. maybe its the pete in my area but im usually pribable up around 50-60 g cubic foot.


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## F2GD (May 17, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> why not just add more dolomitic lime to the original mix. what was it 40g p/cuft go up to 50 or 60g cubic foot. i make the mix... run a little water thru. test the runoff. then add a little more lime. maybe its the pete in my area but im usually pribable up around 50-60 g cubic foot.


The issue is that I ran water through it twice, the third time it plummeted. This is the 3rd or 4th time this has happened when I am testing and I would change out the media to fix it, but it could be due to salt buildup. I would get the mix perfect, transplant a seedling, water it. Then by next watering the runoff is acidic. Also when I am watering once I get above 15% runoff the ec starts climbing, If I say watered 100% runoff would that continue to rise or should it stabilize back down to 1.3ec?

I water when the mass of the pot is within a couple grams of it's dry weight so I know that it should not overwatering and I make sure to get atleast 15% runoff. I have also tried watering with a higher pH mix, by default mine comes out to 6.5 but I have tried up to 8.5 and the runoff is still super acidic.

As I am supplementing my soft water with a good cal mag mix (since my water is very soft, I add call mag till it's 0.4-0.5mS/cm). Would a salt build up tank the pH? Would you recommend flushing and if so how? (My tap water is 8.5pH, 0.15mS/cm)


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## F2GD (May 17, 2021)

There are definitely benefits in growing in peat moss over coco coir (dry bud weight of 8.56g per plant in Peat vs 3.84g in Coir). I am wondering if my lime is being weird and is actually a hydrated dolomitic lime, I am going to read into balancing ph a bit more











(PDF) Impact of Different Growing Substrates on Growth, Yield and Cannabinoid Content of Two Cannabis sativa L. Genotypes in a Pot Culture


PDF | The impacts of different growing substrate compositions, consisting of peat (PM), peat substituted with 30% green fibre (G30) and coco coir fibre... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




www.researchgate.net


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## downhill21 (May 17, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> Hello everybody, I’m new of this forum ...wanna share about Bugbee soil recipe :
> 
> I live in Europe so ,some of the components bugbee use can be different from mine even if
> Dolomite is dolomite and Gypsum is Gypsum .
> ...


I’m trying Bugbee’s “soil” recipe too. Found my Fastbuds Blackberry seedlings seemed to suffer leaf burn. No nutes, just h20 may have been ph’d as high as 6.3 or so. I now water @ 5.5-5.8. Unable thus far to find other issue. As you noted, prolly my own learning curve at fault.


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## downhill21 (May 17, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> this guy isnt a light manufacture or a physicist.. this is possibly the leading plant scientist in the country... what makes you think his expertise is in lighting only? in his video on grow lighting myths he mentions making a whole series on nutrients... and the systems they develop for nasa are total systems not just light oriented...


Concur. Bugbee is a crop physiologist. He and his team of grad students study all aspects of crop physiology. His company, Apogee Instruments is indeed Light-oriented, and his lectures do identify Light as the most important of 8 environmental variables effectiving plant growth. I think it’s important to note that Bugbee behaves more like a facilitator, & many of his lectures include studies & conclusions from his grad students. It’s not just Bugbee the Cannabis God.


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## guitarguy10 (May 17, 2021)

To anyone whose actually interested in reading Dr. Bugbee's published journal articles here is a list:








Bruce Bugbee


Utah State University - Cited by 8,822 - photobiology - protein production from algae - plant atmosphere continum




scholar.google.com





You can find many papers for free on SciHub (at the moment https://sci-hub.do/)


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## BonnMac (May 17, 2021)

downhill21 said:


> Concur. Bugbee is a crop physiologist. He and his team of grad students study all aspects of crop physiology. His company, Apogee Instruments is indeed Light-oriented, and his lectures do identify Light as the most important of 8 environmental variables effectiving plant growth. I think it’s important to note that Bugbee behaves more like a facilitator, & many of his lectures include studies & conclusions from his grad students. It’s not just Bugbee the Cannabis God.


Bugbee does indeed give credit where credit is due with some of his recent grads spearheading research in extended PAR research, among other studies.Their graduate articles are echoed throughout the internet with LED light manufacturers citing his students research in their mission statements.
Bugbee is not a god, as you say.
I think we all just appreciate his stewardship in education and sound scientific advice.
We’re not looking for rock stars. We just want to grow good weed and give props to someone that clarifies a lot of misinformation that is out there.


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## downhill21 (May 18, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> Bugbee does indeed give credit where credit is due with some of his recent grads spearheading research in extended PAR research, among other studies.Their graduate articles are echoed throughout the internet with LED light manufacturers citing his students research in their mission statements.
> Bugbee is not a god, as you say.
> I think we all just appreciate his stewardship in education and sound scientific advice.
> We’re not looking for rock stars. We just want to grow good weed and give props to someone that clarifies a lot of misinformation that is out there.


I like the guy. He appears (to me) pretty humble & there are few university cannabis programs, which I’ll generally follow more closely than bro-science. There’s another cannabis geek at Michigan State University who isn’t bad.


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## downhill21 (May 18, 2021)

guitarguy10 said:


> To anyone whose actually interested in reading Dr. Bugbee's published journal articles here is a list:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now THIS is a very useful contribution. Thank you!


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## Vizzaro (May 18, 2021)

I just harvested my 3 Jack Herer and 1 SFV OG (BagSeed). Now I'm not sure if it's myself constantly being around my plants or that you really need different variation of nutrients during flower or that the plants I grew are bagseed or a combination of everything. But my plants have never smelled as dank as dispensary weed. I also did harvest my plants a bit early at 8 weeks of flower, I am flying to New York in 3 weeks and I wasn't going to have time to properly jar my plants and burp them plus my plants were getting really heavy on top and I did not prepare for that and they were flopping over. Bottom line is this something that anyone else has experienced growing with Bugbee's recipe and using 20-10-20? Does curing really make that big of a difference?


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## TOWERSGROW (May 19, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> View attachment 4903985View attachment 4903986
> I just harvested my 3 Jack Herer and 1 SFV OG (BagSeed). Now I'm not sure if it's myself constantly being around my plants or that you really need different variation of nutrients during flower or that the plants I grew are bagseed or a combination of everything. But my plants have never smelled as dank as dispensary weed. I also did harvest my plants a bit early at 8 weeks of flower, I am flying to New York in 3 weeks and I wasn't going to have time to properly jar my plants and burp them plus my plants were getting really heavy on top and I did not prepare for that and they were flopping over. Bottom line is this something that anyone else has experienced growing with Bugbee's recipe and using 20-10-20? Does curing really make that big of a difference?


Looks nice mate ,
With bugbee soil recipe I had the opposite ... superfluffy colas with no weight and 12 weeks of flo were even not enough ..
Still I have to understand what I fucked up ,
However your looks better than mine


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## Vizzaro (May 19, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> Looks nice mate ,
> With bugbee soil recipe I had the opposite ... superfluffy colas with no weight and 12 weeks of flo were even not enough ..
> Still I have to understand what I fucked up ,
> However your looks better than mine


Thanks. Yes this is definitely a learning process for all of us and our experiences will vary. My first plant did have as dense buds. But I attribute that to me putting that first plant in Miracle-Gro then taking it out of that to out into a bugbee mix. Plus I did the schwazzing technique on the plant in early flower. And I had a whitefly infestation. I learned my lesson. Haha. I'm just bummed I'm not smelling a delicious dank bud smell.


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## TOWERSGROW (May 20, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Thanks. Yes this is definitely a learning process for all of us and our experiences will vary. My first plant did have as dense buds. But I attribute that to me putting that first plant in Miracle-Gro then taking it out of that to out into a bugbee mix. Plus I did the schwazzing technique on the plant in early flower. And I had a whitefly infestation. I learned my lesson. Haha. I'm just bummed I'm not smelling a delicious dank bud smell.


Once I had the same dankless problem ...
It was a humidity issue , too low .
Don’t know if it’s your case ... but I solved it raising up the humidity ( from 37 to 55) ...


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## TOWERSGROW (May 20, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> Once I had the same dankless problem ...
> It was a humidity issue , too low .
> Don’t know if it’s your case ... but I solved it raising up the humidity ( from 37 to 55) ...


And another point I’m not clear with Bugbee...
20-10-20 for all cycle ?? 
veg - mid stage- flowering same Ratio ?
Is something they always teached me differently .. so perhaps I did not understood well from the video ..
Looks to me too much N in flo stage ...


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## JonCreighton (May 20, 2021)

downhill21 said:


> Concur. Bugbee is a crop physiologist. He and his team of grad students study all aspects of crop physiology. His company, Apogee Instruments is indeed Light-oriented, and his lectures do identify Light as the most important of 8 environmental variables effectiving plant growth. I think it’s important to note that Bugbee behaves more like a facilitator, & many of his lectures include studies & conclusions from his grad students. It’s not just Bugbee the Cannabis God.


Most scientists refer to their research as "my lab". iv only ever seen the guy give credit. i can specifically remember him shouting out the girl in the far red videos multiple times and if u watch the video where he displays his lab he goes thru all the achievements of his grad students. i think he literally even has them posterised all over the walls of the lab.

Before this guy we had the Chandra at all and what else.... not much.


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## JonCreighton (May 20, 2021)

guitarguy10 said:


> To anyone whose actually interested in reading Dr. Bugbee's published journal articles here is a list:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


2004 paper on hydro nuits seems to contradict the 20-10-20 he recommends in the video....

im still trying to figure this one out if anyone got an ideas why


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## JonCreighton (May 20, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> And another point I’m not clear with Bugbee...
> 20-10-20 for all cycle ??
> veg - mid stage- flowering same Ratio ?
> Is something they always teached me differently .. so perhaps I did not understood well from the video ..
> Looks to me too much N in flo stage ...


i would think most strains ud want to stay around 160ppm N so thats be fine. Im always more worried about the K defficiency but i have never seen it show up visually on the plants.


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## Vizzaro (May 20, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> Once I had the same dankless problem ...
> It was a humidity issue , too low .
> Don’t know if it’s your case ... but I solved it raising up the humidity ( from 37 to 55) ...


I don't believe it's a humidity issue since my humidity during the dry stayed around 58% and now I'm curing and just trying to keep my buds around 62% - 65% based the the hygrometers I purchased. I guess my question is when does it start to get that weed smell? Maybe I'm overthinking all of this, I guess I just thought that all weed would smell dank as long as you knew how to grow.


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## BonnMac (May 20, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> And another point I’m not clear with Bugbee...
> 20-10-20 for all cycle ??
> veg - mid stage- flowering same Ratio ?
> Is something they always teached me differently .. so perhaps I did not understood well from the video ..
> Looks to me too much N in flo stage ...


I wondered the same thing. Someone asked that exact question in the YouTube comments in his "maximising cannabis growth video". The response was, yes. From veg to the end. The nutrients are pretty diluted as long as you slightly overwater. That is key.


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## Vizzaro (May 20, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> I wondered the same thing. Someone asked that exact question in the YouTube comments in his "maximising cannabis growth video". The response was, yes. From veg to the end. The nutrients are pretty diluted as long as you slightly overwater. That is key.


That is exactly what I did. I may have gone a bit too high with my EC towards the end giving my plants an EC of 1.4 which made the EC go up past 1.5 every time I watered but with a little overwatering it would drop back down. This time I am going to stick with and EC of 1.1 and see how that goes. I got a decent yield off of my grow, 13oz's but the overall smell isn't all that great to me. Maybe cause I spent too much time around my plants, I don't know. I guess I was hoping to grow some dank smelling weed like from a dispensary. It get's me high that's for sure. Does properly drying and curing make that big of a difference in smell and taste?


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## BonnMac (May 20, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> That is exactly what I did. I may have gone a bit too high with my EC towards the end giving my plants an EC of 1.4 which made the EC go up past 1.5 every time I watered but with a little overwatering it would drop back down. This time I am going to stick with and EC of 1.1 and see how that goes. I got a decent yield off of my grow, 13oz's but the overall smell isn't all that great to me. Maybe cause I spent too much time around my plants, I don't know. I guess I was hoping to grow some dank smelling weed like from a dispensary. It get's me high that's for sure. Does properly drying and curing make that big of a difference in smell and taste?


Great question as this is my first grow, as well.
Variables include dry vs wet trim. Apparently drying the whole plant intact with most, if not all leaves, preserves the fragrance and flavour.
My understanding is it's best to first dry at low temperatures with humidity between 45-55% for at least 7 to 14 days.
All this seems to be more related to bro-science and less Bugbee.


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## Vizzaro (May 20, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> Great question as this is my first grow, as well.
> Variables include dry vs wet trim. Apparently drying the whole plant intact with most, if not all leaves, preserves the fragrance and flavour.
> My understanding is it's best to first dry at low temperatures with humidity between 45-55% for at least 7 to 14 days.
> All this seems to be more related to bro-science and less Bugbee.


Yes I have looked into the Wet Trim vs Dry Trim and I found a podcast called Growcast and in one episode they had a guest by the name of Doctor Coco from Cocoforcannabis.com and Dr. Coco mentions he likes to wet trim his plants and get them out of the dry phase as quick as possible (3 days). And get his weed right into jars and start the curing process. He says he does this to avoid any risks of mold which mainly happens during the drying phase when people try to dry for too long increasing their risk of mold. But I guess there are other variables to consider as well. For 1 I think I harvested a bit early I hear you need to harvest at the right time cause some plants smell better at different stages of flower. Also 2 I grew bagseed. And 3 I think I may have had Nitrogen Excess since a bit of leaves were shiny and dark green and I hear too much Nitrogen makes your plants smell more like grass. The flowers looked amazing though. And the weed gets me high.


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## BonnMac (May 20, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Yes I have looked into the Wet Trim vs Dry Trim and I found a podcast called Growcast and in one episode they had a guest by the name of Doctor Coco from Cocoforcannabis.com and Dr. Coco mentions he likes to wet trim his plants and get them out of the dry phase as quick as possible (3 days). And get his weed right into jars and start the curing process. He says he does this to avoid any risks of mold which mainly happens during the drying phase when people try to dry for too long increasing their risk of mold. But I guess there are other variables to consider as well. For 1 I think I harvested a bit early I hear you need to harvest at the right time cause some plants smell better at different stages of flower. Also 2 I grew bagseed. And 3 I think I may have had Nitrogen Excess since a bit of leaves were shiny and dark green and I hear too much Nitrogen makes your plants smell more like grass. The flowers looked amazing though. And the weed gets me high.


That seems to be the consensus - Harvesting slightly ahead of full ripening seems to have an impact on smell and taste.

I’m taking the low and slow drying approach.

I have one plant harvested slightly before its prime, as well.Will be interesting to do a side by side comparison to the other plant which was harvested, hopefully, at the right time.

Thanks for the tip on the podcast.
Checking it out tonight.


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## Vizzaro (May 20, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> That seems to be the consensus - Harvesting slightly ahead of full ripening seems to have an impact on smell and taste.
> 
> I’m taking the low and slow drying approach.
> 
> ...


Here is the link to the website with their specific episodes on growcast. Check out the dry and cure episode. https://www.cocoforcannabis.com/toc/podcasts/


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## guitarguy10 (May 21, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> Most scientists refer to their research as "my lab". iv only ever seen the guy give credit. i can specifically remember him shouting out the girl in the far red videos multiple times and if u watch the video where he displays his lab he goes thru all the achievements of his grad students. i think he literally even has them posterised all over the walls of the lab.
> 
> Before this guy we had the Chandra at all and what else.... not much.


Uh, you've clearly never worked in a research lab or pursued graduate level studies have you? Of course all of his grad students work is 'posterised all over the walls', that's how it works. Defending your thesis dissertation is a long and pretty gruelling process and most post doc research fellows won't give you a second of their time to listen to until you've published *at least* one peer reviewed journal article and demonstrated your presentation skills in the form of posters or abstracts that have been placed on the walls of your post doc fellows lab. It's like this in every academic research lab I've ever been in including the one where my own work was 'posterised all over the walls'.

I'm not even trying to defend Dr. Bugbee here, just every single academic research lab at least in North America. Now in his defence though, he defended his own thesis back in 1984, he has DOZENS of peer reviewed papers of which he is the primary author and he is now a tenured Professor at USU and teaches graduate level classes in Environmental Plant Physiology, Plant Nutrition and Environmental Instrumentation. This is how academic research science works: graduate level students do research under the mentorship of their post doc fellow who guides them, gets the necessary funding to equip their lab (which is no joke, it takes A LOT of work and hours to get a research grant), peer reviews their work (as well as any of the research papers in their field of study waiting to be peer reviewed before publication), writes their own textbooks and teaches several classes in the capacity of a Professor. This is how Universities work and the work is just as much his as it is the graduate students he mentors to generate the results.


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## JonCreighton (May 21, 2021)

guitarguy10 said:


> Uh, you've clearly never worked in a research lab or pursued graduate level studies have you? Of course all of his grad students work is 'posterised all over the walls', that's how it works. Defending your thesis dissertation is a long and pretty gruelling process and most post doc research fellows won't give you a second of their time to listen to until you've published *at least* one peer reviewed journal article and demonstrated your presentation skills in the form of posters or abstracts that have been placed on the walls of your post doc fellows lab. It's like this in every academic research lab I've ever been in including the one where my own work was 'posterised all over the walls'.
> 
> I'm not even trying to defend Dr. Bugbee here, just every single academic research lab at least in North America. Now in his defence though, he defended his own thesis back in 1984, he has DOZENS of peer reviewed papers of which he is the primary author and he is now a tenured Professor at USU and teaches graduate level classes in Environmental Plant Physiology, Plant Nutrition and Environmental Instrumentation. This is how academic research science works: graduate level students do research under the mentorship of their post doc fellow who guides them, gets the necessary funding to equip their lab (which is no joke, it takes A LOT of work and hours to get a research grant), peer reviews their work (as well as any of the research papers in their field of study waiting to be peer reviewed before publication), writes their own textbooks and teaches several classes in the capacity of a Professor. This is how Universities work and the work is just as much his as it is the graduate students he mentors to generate the results.


what are u trying to say? 

someone said he should give credit. i was saying he gives about as much credit to the people who do the research in his lab that u can expect. 

i was just listening to andrew hubermans new podcast... it was constaly "at my lab" "resarch done at so and sos lab" he never once mentioed by name the post docs who did the labor (i get the eric weinstein model). 

i dont really get what ur tryinng to say. i think hating on this guy is just being a straight up hater.


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## BonnMac (May 22, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> what are u trying to say?
> 
> someone said he should give credit. i was saying he gives about as much credit to the people who do the research in his lab that u can expect.
> 
> ...


Looks to me like you guys are on the same page.
Maybe guitar hit the wrong reply button?


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## Pelicanwheel (May 23, 2021)

Vizzaro.... Bugbee said that an EC between 1.0 and 2.0 is acceptable. He mentioned that in a reply in comments on his video. Someone posted his exact words in a post in this thread back in January. 

FYI


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## Vizzaro (May 23, 2021)

Pelicanwheel said:


> Vizzaro.... Bugbee said that an EC between 1.0 and 2.0 is acceptable. He mentioned that in a reply in comments on his video. Someone posted his exact words in a post in this thread back in January.
> 
> FYI


I posted the exact words in this thread. Haha. Yes I know. I guess it just seems maybe that was a bit too much for my plants in their 3 gallon pots and using only a 240W LED.


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## aed (Jul 6, 2021)

JonCreighton said:


> Most scientists refer to their research as "my lab". iv only ever seen the guy give credit. i can specifically remember him shouting out the girl in the far red videos multiple times and if u watch the video where he displays his lab he goes thru all the achievements of his grad students. i think he literally even has them posterised all over the walls of the lab.
> 
> Before this guy we had the Chandra at all and what else.... not much.


Plus one on Bugbee's attitude. He is incredibly thoughtful in giving his students credit. His grad students are a fortunate bunch in my opinion.


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## Pelicanwheel (Jul 6, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I posted the exact words in this thread. Haha. Yes I know. I guess it just seems maybe that was a bit too much for my plants in their 3 gallon pots and using only a 240W LED.



How has your grow gone. I'm in the middle of the exact Bugbee recommendation and so far so good.


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## TOWERSGROW (Jul 7, 2021)

Guys , as per my previous post ,
I made all from the bugbee video ...
Vermiculite - acid peat -gypsum - dolomite 
Then I used nuts and irrigate exceeding 10% of water as he said . 
now :
Vegetative was ok ... not explosive 
Flowering was a nightmare 
I really think 50% vermiculite is too high and acid peat it’s a risky choice because it’s hard to manage the ph .
If u have to prepare a large qt of soil , then u must have the proper machine to mix it correctly .
I made flowers with no structure “empty” and it took about 90 days to make them ready ...

my personal experience was bad with this recipe .
I came back to my old soil with the right qt of vermiculite/perlite . Same old nuts . Things went fine and well .


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## Overgrowtho (Jul 7, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> Vermiculite - acid peat -gypsum - dolomite


Try with less acidic peat moss? I am using peat moss that is not overly acidic, and having good results. Already on the third run with this medium. This seems to be the main or only form of peat available to me in my geographic location.


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## BonnMac (Jul 7, 2021)

TOWERSGROW said:


> Guys , as per my previous post ,
> I made all from the bugbee video ...
> Vermiculite - acid peat -gypsum - dolomite
> Then I used nuts and irrigate exceeding 10% of water as he said .
> ...


Interesting. Which strain(s) were you growing?
Were you able to use 20-10-20?
My grow was successful without too may curveballs thrown but I was growing Blue Mystic which is apparently a good hardy plant for a first time grower.


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## Vizzaro (Jul 7, 2021)

Pelicanwheel said:


> How has your grow gone. I'm in the middle of the exact Bugbee recommendation and so far so good.


It went well. I harvested 13oz of dry weight buds out of 4 plants in 3 gallon containers. Now I am in my 3rs run using the same media and nutrients. This 3rd run are clones from the previous 4 plants, only this time I have 6 small plants in 1 gallon containers. My only issue is that I didn't install a trellis net and the top buds are packing on weight and my plants are starting to tilt. Other than that I have some slight yellowing of all my plants (I'm not sure if that is due to me not doing any Defoliation this time around).


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## Overgrowtho (Jul 8, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> It went well. I harvested 13oz of dry weight buds out of 4 plants in 3 gallon containers. Now I am in my 3rs run using the same media and nutrients. This 3rd run are clones from the previous 4 plants, only this time I have 6 small plants in 1 gallon containers. My only issue is that I didn't install a trellis net and the top buds are packing on weight and my plants are starting to tilt. Other than that I have some slight yellowing of all my plants (I'm not sure if that is due to me not doing any Defoliation this time around).


Maybe try some yoyo hangers to hang buds up higher if too heavy.
Sounds good keep us posted with som pics. Nice to hear about the 400g harvest before. That under how many watts?


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## Vizzaro (Jul 8, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Maybe try some yoyo hangers to hang buds up higher if too heavy.
> Sounds good keep us posted with som pics. Nice to hear about the 400g harvest before. That under how many watts?


240 Watt LED Quantity Board.


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## Overgrowtho (Jul 8, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> 240 Watt LED Quantity Board.


Holy mother of god. Pulling 400g from 240 watts is stellar bro.

In my 4x4 I put in 700 watts and I often think I might be severely overdoing it (although I do run Co2 and got around 500 to 600g in first 2 runs...)....


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## billevans92 (Jul 8, 2021)

i'm so happy i found this topic. i wanted to try the bugbee method myself but it seems it's not for begginers; i read lots of advanced growers having some kind of trouble... i also have problem finding pelletized gypsum that doesn't come in very large quantities...


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## BonnMac (Jul 8, 2021)

billevans92 said:


> i'm so happy i found this topic. i wanted to try the bugbee method myself but it seems it's not for begginers; i read lots of advanced growers having some kind of trouble... i also have problem finding pelletized gypsum that doesn't come in very large quantities...


First time grower here.
Very pleased with the results.
I didn't find pelletised gypsum either. Not saying it's negligible, but I added the powdered form.
It's the smallest amendment, probably won't make or break your grow but add what he recommends, quantity-wise, regardless.
Worked for me.


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## billevans92 (Jul 8, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> First time grower here.
> Very pleased with the results.
> I didn't find pelletised gypsum either. Not saying it's negligible, but I added the powdered form.
> It's the smallest amendment, probably won't make or break your grow but add what he recommends, quantity-wise, regardless.
> Worked for me.


omg! that's great, thanks for your input. you did the half peat half vermiculite soil and it wasn't too wet? it happens that i don't have great control of the humidity and temp of the room, so i fear that soil gets really wet. also: you fed the girls 20-10-20 during the whole grow and it was ok?*

*edit: after i asked you this i read previous messages where you adressed that yes, you followed the same npk proportions during the whole cycle


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## BonnMac (Jul 9, 2021)

billevans92 said:


> omg! that's great, thanks for your input. you did the half peat half vermiculite soil and it wasn't too wet? it happens that i don't have great control of the humidity and temp of the room, so i fear that soil gets really wet. also: you fed the girls 20-10-20 during the whole grow and it was ok?*
> 
> *edit: after i asked you this i read previous messages where you adressed that yes, you followed the same npk proportions during the whole cycle


Yes. I did use 20-10-20 throughout.
Although after the first feed, the top set of leaf tips turned slightly yellow. I suspect there was a slight shock when the nuits were first introduced
Others in this thread experienced the same thing and advised slowly ramping up the fertilizer component over a few waterings to try to avoid this.
Although the NPK is pretty dilute, the suggested fertilizer measurements might have an impact on a young plant in early veg. As always, other factors play a role.
Good luck with your grow.


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## Vizzaro (Jul 9, 2021)

billevans92 said:


> i'm so happy i found this topic. i wanted to try the bugbee method myself but it seems it's not for begginers; i read lots of advanced growers having some kind of trouble... i also have problem finding pelletized gypsum that doesn't come in very large quantities...


First time grower here as well. I'm so glad I found this method before I began growing. Also I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble finding pellet gypsum, that seems to be most people's struggles when it comes to wanting to try this method of growing, finding all the ingredients.


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## testtime (Jul 9, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> First time grower here as well. I'm so glad I found this method before I began growing. Also I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble finding pellet gypsum, that seems to be most people's struggles when it comes to wanting to try this method of growing, finding all the ingredients.


You want cheap, possibly free gypsum?

Go to home Depot or Lowe's and go to the drywall section. Go to the pile that is not fungus resistant. You do not want any pesticides in there. Find the broken boards. There are always broken boards.

Once you have identified a broken board go to a salesman or manager and tell them you'll take that piece of crap off his hands for free because you know no one's going to buy it. Sometimes they say go ahead. Other times they say no way, and charge you a couple of bucks for it.

Cart this cracked and shattered wallboard home. Spend a bit of time peeling the cardboard exterior. Have fun with it with a sledgehammer. Then go after it with one of those hand mixers. Finally put it through kitchen sifters, the wire mesh one.

Each time you do this you will be left with paper and rocks on the top and perfect gypsum on the bottom. Run through this process a few times and you will get an enormous amount of gypsum for 1/20 the amount the garden store would charge you.


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## billevans92 (Jul 10, 2021)

Thank you guys, you are really nice. I don't uderstand how to give a "like" to your answers , but all my gratitude to you!


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## billevans92 (Jul 10, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> First time grower here as well. I'm so glad I found this method before I began growing. Also I'm sorry to hear that you are having trouble finding pellet gypsum, that seems to be most people's struggles when it comes to wanting to try this method of growing, finding all the ingredients.


definitely is! i also need a ph and EC meter, but that's easy to solve (i did my two previous grows without having them, but i used soil, which is a more "forgiving" method as far as i know). as for the gypsum, our good friend BonnMac here suggested using some kind of powdered form, suggestion i find interesting (also maybe pellets are super-slow release for an indoor setting? (????) let's have an optimistic view xD).

there is another thing that popped my head: i think bugbee method really depends on the interaction between parameters and it's made for "pushing plants really hard". thing is i don't know if i intend to push that really hard, because i don't know if my equipement is that powerfull, ppfd wise, for example (i have a 300w cheap full spectrum, which gives me lots of light to my tiny 56*58*160cm flowering room); or ventilation/co2 wise. i have a really budget setup so far: just a 4" cooler for extraction, a 3" one inside for circulation (think i don't have room for an oscillating fan), the 300w non-efficient light and some holes below for passive intraction; definitely not an apogee lab setup xD, and my veg room is even cheaper.

but as u probably already guessed, i also tend to overthink everything xD, so... as george costanza would say: i just can't tell anymore


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## nanners1 (Jul 14, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> Curious about the outcomes and/or the ongoing grows using this media mix and 20-10-20 food.
> Success?


I second this question.


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## Vizzaro (Jul 14, 2021)

nanners1 said:


> I second this question.


This is my success! 13oz from 4 plants in a 3x3x6 grow tent using a 240W Quantum Board.


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## chicofrito (Jul 22, 2021)

The soilless media Carolina Soil is very popular among growers in Brazil since the early 2000s, i think it looks pretty similar: 70% Peat Moss, 30% Vermiculite, Lime Dolomite, Gypsum. 

I just got 8oz from 3 autos in a 2x2 with a 200W QB on my first grow. I mixed 5 Tbsp of Bone Meal, 5 Tbsp of Castor Cake and 10 Tbsp of Worm Castings because it sounded foolproof, no ph, ec ppm stuff just water straight from the tap for 4 weeks then i feed Plantafol 20-20-20 two or three times every other watering. I took the upper buds in 10 weeks. My exhaust system was 2 case fans with no air circulation, i was flowering with 99% humidity at lights off and 38°C/100°F at lights on.


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## billevans92 (Jul 22, 2021)

chicofrito said:


> The soilless media Carolina Soil is very popular among growers in Brazil since the early 2000s, i think it looks pretty similar: 70% Peat Moss, 30% Vermiculite, Lime Dolomite, Gypsum.
> 
> I just got 8oz from 3 autos in a 2x2 with a 200W QB on my first grow. I mixed 5 Tbsp of Bone Meal, 5 Tbsp of Castor Cake and 10 Tbsp of Worm Castings because it sounded foolproof, no ph, ec ppm stuff just water straight from the tap for 4 weeks then i feed Plantafol 20-20-20 two or three times every other watering. I took the upper buds in 10 weeks. My exhaust system was 2 case fans with no air circulation, i was flowering with 99% humidity at lights off and 38°C/100°F at lights on.
> View attachment 4948692View attachment 4948674View attachment 4948675View attachment 4948727View attachment 4948718


thanks so much for your detailed report! it's really interesting. and you did great, congrats. your succes encourages me

saludos desde argentina <3


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## nanners1 (Jul 22, 2021)

chicofrito said:


> The soilless media Carolina Soil is very popular among growers in Brazil since the early 2000s, i think it looks pretty similar: 70% Peat Moss, 30% Vermiculite, Lime Dolomite, Gypsum.
> 
> I just got 8oz from 3 autos in a 2x2 with a 200W QB on my first grow. I mixed 5 Tbsp of Bone Meal, 5 Tbsp of Castor Cake and 10 Tbsp of Worm Castings because it sounded foolproof, no ph, ec ppm stuff just water straight from the tap for 4 weeks then i feed Plantafol 20-20-20 two or three times every other watering. I took the upper buds in 10 weeks. My exhaust system was 2 case fans with no air circulation, i was flowering with 99% humidity at lights off and 38°C/100°F at lights on.
> View attachment 4948692View attachment 4948674View attachment 4948675View attachment 4948727View attachment 4948718


very interesting to see the soilless mix you guys have there! by the way, are you sure your hygrometer is calibrated or functional? 99% humidity sounds very, very off.


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## Arkos (Jul 23, 2021)

nanners1 said:


> hygrometer is calibrated or functional? 99% humidity sounds very, very off.


Not when you in Brazil


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## nanners1 (Jul 23, 2021)

@BonnMac @Vizzaro @Overgrowtho , did you guys prepare your peat moss? Ive been reading I have to pre-wet and dry and wet again for 3 weeks before using.


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## BonnMac (Jul 23, 2021)

nanners1 said:


> @BonnMac @Vizzaro @Overgrowtho , did you guys prepare your peat moss? Ive been reading I have to pre-wet and dry and wet again for 3 weeks before using.


I personally didn't. Although I've read that is a good thing to do.


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## havox07 (Jul 23, 2021)

Seems like a very interesting method. The soil composition is definitely a little different from traditional perlite and peat with lime. But the fertilizer is a pretty decent swing from even going for the Jack's method and would probably be a decent deal cheaper. And quite simple as it is a single fertilizer. 

The only issue I am seeing is the lack of calcium and magnesium if one does not have water as hard as they appear to have in Utah.
Here my water has something like 100mg/L of hardness, and I think there they have 200+ and EC of .4 vs my EC of .2 so I think I would be calcium deficient without adding something like gypsum.


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## BonnMac (Jul 23, 2021)

havox07 said:


> Seems like a very interesting method. The soil composition is definitely a little different from traditional perlite and peat with lime. But the fertilizer is a pretty decent swing from even going for the Jack's method and would probably be a decent deal cheaper. And quite simple as it is a single fertilizer.
> 
> The only issue I am seeing is the lack of calcium and magnesium if one does not have water as hard as they appear to have in Utah.
> Here my water has something like 100mg/L of hardness, and I think there they have 200+ and EC of .4 vs my EC of .2 so I think I would be calcium deficient without adding something like gypsum.


Understood.
You can always dial in your PH & EC by following his parameters. It's slightly intimidating and perhaps counterintuitive but you're gaining knowledge from a scientist.
As with anything, the more you do it, the more you know what works best for you.


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## billevans92 (Jul 25, 2021)

here are some interesting papers by the Dr. and his crew


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## billevans92 (Jul 25, 2021)

sadly i couldn't find a single paper by the Dr that talks about the silicon aspect of the peat-vermiculite soil

edit: but i found something by another scientist: Are Clay Minerals a Significant Source of Si for Crops?

"Identifying the source(s) of silicon (Si) for plant is a key issue in understanding the terrestrial cycle of Si and for deciphering the reservoir of bioavailable Si to Si accumulating crops. In soils, amorphous Si, one of the most bioavailable source, is mostly present as phytoliths and has been suggested for use as a Si fertilizer by diatomite application. Although clay minerals are known to contribute to plant nutrition, their role as a major source of silica for plants has not been fully addressed. We aim at evaluating the efficiency of clay minerals as a source of Si for crops. We conducted two pot experiments: one wheat-growing experiment to compare a clay (vermiculitic) mineral and amorphous silica particles (diatomite, which is used as a phytolith substitute), and one rice-growing experiment to compare two types of clay (kaolinite vs montmorillonite) common in rice cultivation. *We confirmed that the amorphous silica was more efficient than vermiculite for Si uptake by wheat. However, the Si uptake was not significantly different between the 5% diatomite substrate and the 25% vermiculite substrate indicating that clays may challenge amorphous silica, as a source of Si for crops.* The kaolinite probably delivered less Si to the rice than the montmorillonite because of the lower specific surface area and lower pH of kaolinite substrates. Because clays are generally much more abundant in soils than amorphous silica, we concluded that clays may be a substantial Si source for plants, depending on the clay mineralogy".


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## billevans92 (Jul 26, 2021)

another thing to adress (?): seems that this soilless mix seems to allow you to complete a full cycle without the need of transplants? the Dr. uses the same pot for little plants and big ones:


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## nanners1 (Jul 26, 2021)

billevans92 said:


> another thing to adress (?): seems that this soilless mix seems to allow you to complete a full cycle without the need of transplants? the Dr. uses the same pot for little plants and big ones:
> 
> View attachment 4951730


thats actually any medium. you can grow as big as you want in any pot as long as you: 1. water accordingly (a small pot will require several waterings a day if it has a big plant) and 2. you make sure you don`t get root bound (applying copper pruning or air pruning, for example with smart pots).


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## billevans92 (Jul 26, 2021)

nanners1 said:


> thats actually any medium. you can grow as big as you want in any pot as long as you: 1. water accordingly (a small pot will require several waterings a day if it has a big plant) and 2. you make sure you don`t get root bound (applying copper pruning or air pruning, for example with smart pots).


thanks, nanners1! i've been using textile pots for a while, but i'm getting tired of them because i have some issues when transplanting, with the roots being "attached" to the pot... but this could perhaps be solved by avoiding transplants.

i have a question regarding bugbee's method (that's a new one xD): he says that you should always "over"water until you get a 10% runnoff, aprox. this is true also when the plant is really young, like really small for the size of it's container? wouldn't the medium take forever to dry? i'm thinking about fungus and all that jazz..


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## nanners1 (Jul 26, 2021)

billevans92 said:


> thanks, nanners1! i've been using textile pots for a while, but i'm getting tired of them because i have some issues when transplanting, with the roots being "attached" to the pot... but this could perhaps be solved by avoiding transplants.
> 
> i have a question regarding bugbee's method (that's a new one xD): he says that you should always "over"water until you get a 10% runnoff, aprox. this is true also when the plant is really young, like really small for the size of it's container? wouldn't the medium take forever to dry? i'm thinking about fungus and all that jazz..


Oh boy, *that was my main question too when i began. I solved it by germinating into solo cups*, and then 1 gallon, and then 3 gallons to maintain runoff. I transplant a little sooner to avoid dealing with too much roots, but you can prune them yourself (loosen up where the roots are attached) and add mycorhize to the transplant area.

when I asked about a young plant in a 3 gallon, for example - i was advised not to, but if I HAD to, i was advised to just water a small inner circle around the plant until runoff, and not to water the whole pot. but I dont know if this works.

*apparently keeping moisture levels and knowing when to water at the right times when you start in your final pot is something reserved to more experienced growers.*


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## billevans92 (Jul 26, 2021)

nanners1 said:


> Oh boy, *that was my main question too when i began. I solved it by germinating into solo cups*, and then 1 gallon, and then 3 gallons to maintain runoff. I transplant a little sooner to avoid dealing with too much roots, but you can prune them yourself (loosen up where the roots are attached) and add mycorhize to the transplant area.
> 
> when I asked about a young plant in a 3 gallon, for example - i was advised not to, but if I HAD to, i was adviced to just water a small inner circle around the plant until runoff, and not to water the whole pot. but I dont know if this works.
> 
> *apparently keeping moisture levels and knowing when to water at the right times when you start in your final pot is something reserved to more experienced growers.*


Yes! I started vegetative cycles in both ways: in 200cc glasses and in 10 liter (2.6 gallon) pots, with the mere intention of experimenting. I never had problems in this regard, because when I start in "large" pots I use little water when watering, and I increase the amount as the plant grows; but I don't know if this would also be the case with the Bugbee method, which is so specific to the way of watering and nourishing...


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## nanners1 (Jul 26, 2021)

billevans92 said:


> Yes! I started vegetative cycles in both ways: in 200cc glasses and in 10 liter (2.6 gallon) pots, with the mere intention of experimenting. I never had problems in this regard, because when I start in "large" pots I use little water when watering, and I increase the amount as the plant grows; but I don't know if this would also be the case with the Bugbee method, which is so specific to the way of watering and nourishing...


yup, because with his method since its a lot of constant feeding, if you dont do runoff, there will be buildup. He mentions there is a workaround, but he never explains it.


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## havox07 (Jul 26, 2021)

Well I bought some 20-10-20 locally, pretty cheap for 11kg, something like $35. Doing the math in hydro buddy though shows I probably should add some gypsum (around .2g per liter, and some epsom salts to supplement the ca and mg) I am by no means an expert but is the K levels also not a little low? Most traiditional mixes like Jacks are around 200+ vs the 100ish of this mixture.


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## Vizzaro (Jul 26, 2021)

nanners1 said:


> @BonnMac @Vizzaro @Overgrowtho , did you guys prepare your peat moss? Ive been reading I have to pre-wet and dry and wet again for 3 weeks before using.


All I did was are the gypsum (Pallet) and Dolomite Lime (Powder) to the 50/50 mix of Peat Moss and Vermiculite. Mixed in all in a tub then added some water to keep it moist and left it outside. I only open the tub to use the media other than that it's kept closed.


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## Vizzaro (Jul 26, 2021)

Also if anyone is interested. Dr. Bruce Bugbee is now teaching a class on cannabis cultivation. Anyone may sign up and you don't need to be a student of Utah State University. https://caas.usu.edu/labs/cpl/cannabis/online-course


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## havox07 (Jul 26, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Also if anyone is interested. Dr. Bruce Bugbee is now teaching a class on cannabis cultivation. Anyone may sign up and you don't need to be a student of Utah State University. https://caas.usu.edu/labs/cpl/acannabis/online-course


Definitely not cheap, hopefully, somebody can post some of the more important bits as it appears most of it should be released now or quite soon.


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## chicofrito (Jul 26, 2021)

billevans92 said:


> thanks so much for your detailed report! it's really interesting. and you did great, congrats. your succes encourages me
> 
> saludos desde argentina <3


Thanks bro good luck! I used magnesium sulfate once or twice and top dress with worm castings and bone meal.


nanners1 said:


> very interesting to see the soilless mix you guys have there! by the way, are you sure your hygrometer is calibrated or functional? 99% humidity sounds very, very off.


I think it was correct, i was having power outage around midday for hours, it was like a sauna with water dripping down walls. The plants stop drinking at week 9. The soil was wet for 5 days or more, I got bud rot, powdery mildew, mushrooms but the plants recovered. I removed the rotten buds and sprayed lemon juice.

Im on day 74 of my second grow doing just 2 autos, but the plants looks much bigger. I thought i would be growing dwarf plants. I bought the cheapest auto seeds, have no experience but it's growing like crazy. The first pic is 33 days after sprouting, second pic is 74 days after sprouting. I mixed some perlite to test. I think the big plant has calcium deficiency, im gonna mix more bone meal next time.


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## billevans92 (Jul 26, 2021)

chicofrito said:


> Thanks bro good luck! I used magnesium sulfate once or twice and top dress with worm castings and bone meal.
> 
> I think it was correct, i was having power outage around midday for hours, it was like a sauna with water dripping down walls. The plants stop drinking at week 9. The soil was wet for 5 days or more, I got bud rot, powdery mildew, mushrooms but the plants recovered. I removed the rotten buds and sprayed lemon juice.
> 
> ...


I did my first grow with unknown regular seeds, in summer, indoors. I ended with 1.70 meters long plants in little 4lt pots. My friends couldn't believe it. Sadly it became a problem... Weed grows like crazy when it's warm and humid; but disseases appear easily


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## Vizzaro (Jul 27, 2021)

havox07 said:


> Definitely not cheap, hopefully, somebody can post some of the more important bits as it appears most of it should be released now or quite soon.


Yes I agree, it's not cheap at all. But I figured if someone has the money and is interested. I certainly have been thinking about it. Until I can afford it I'll just do my best to get better at growing this way.


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## GanjaJack (Jul 27, 2021)

I've been growing for a long time and I find some of his information to be flatly wrong. 

Some of it is good.

He has a video out about "the secret to larger yields" and he goes into nutrients and lighting, without speaking towards genetics and it saddened me, because genetics are the #1 factor in yield when everything else is optimal.


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## BonnMac (Jul 27, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Yes I agree, it's not cheap at all. But I figured if someone has the money and is interested. I certainly have been thinking about it. Until I can afford it I'll just do my best to get better at growing this way.


Strongly considering purchasing the "Optimizing The Root Zone" class. Curious to see if the university is doing anything different with their research since he released his popular video.


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## havox07 (Jul 27, 2021)

Interestingly enough somebody posted on overgrow stating that in the lecture videos they utilize 75/25 peat to vermiculite, stil 20-10-20 but they supplement silica, Phosphorus, and copper


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## nanners1 (Jul 27, 2021)

havox07 said:


> Interestingly enough somebody posted on overgrow stating that in the lecture videos they utilize 75/25 peat to vermiculite, stil 20-10-20 but they supplement silica, Phosphorus, and copper


in the new pay-to-watch courses from the University? or which ones? I cant keep up with this. Im going to have a deep emotional breakdown. lol


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## havox07 (Jul 27, 2021)

nanners1 said:


> in the new pay-to-watch courses from the University? or which ones? I cant keep up with this. Im going to have a deep emotional breakdown. lol


Pretty sure its in the paid university course here is a link to the thread. I mean there is no one right answer or single way to grow, this method may increase yields by some percentage but you can grow in dirt and still make decent bud. The fertilizer method I was excited about as it would provide a very cheap and easy method but the requirement to add extra supplements makes it a bit of a wash.


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## BonnMac (Jul 27, 2021)

havox07 said:


> Interestingly enough somebody posted on overgrow stating that in the lecture videos they utilize 75/25 peat to vermiculite, stil 20-10-20 but they supplement silica, Phosphorus, and copper


Sounds like they’re still going at it from different angles, as they should.


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## TheWholeTruth (Jul 27, 2021)

The mars method from the doc, is it specifically designed for the gravity on mars. How different is the gravity on mars from earth as im assuming it would make a difference?


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## nanners1 (Jul 27, 2021)

TheWholeTruth said:


> The mars method from the doc, is it specifically designed for the gravity on mars. How different is the gravity on mars from earth as im assuming it would make a difference?


no... the mars thing is just a resume included in the title and its a bit misleading, as it reads like marijuana was grown on mars - which as far as i know, has not happened (although should be a priority lol). *The method in the video is for growing on earth* 




but for kicks, Mars has about 60% less gravitational acceleration than earth. but then again, not relevant for our discussion


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## Overgrowtho (Jul 28, 2021)

havox07 said:


> Pretty sure its in the paid university course here is a link to the thread. I mean there is no one right answer or single way to grow, this method may increase yields by some percentage but you can grow in dirt and still make decent bud. The fertilizer method I was excited about as it would provide a very cheap and easy method but the requirement to add extra supplements makes it a bit of a wash.


Thanks so much for sharing this. I've chimed in on that thread over there, to try and dig out more info. I'm not yet convinced to sign up for the course but I would love to know what the hell he has changed (and why) after just 1 year. Not to mention 1.8 million views from his famous Youtube video/method published 1 year ago that I've implemented.




nanners1 said:


> in the new pay-to-watch courses from the University? or which ones? I cant keep up with this. Im going to have a deep emotional breakdown. lol


My thoughts exactly lol! WTF is going on here lol


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## Overgrowtho (Jul 28, 2021)

Side note: We dont have acces to Jacks and my buddy has some Flora Flex nutes laying around. I've started him on the 50/50 Bugbee method with silica and gypsum (formula from a year ago). 

Flora Flex does advise to use hard water or add calmag but I wonder if the 50/50 amended medium already has enough cal and mag? Our water around here is like 65 PPM.


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## havox07 (Jul 28, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Side note: We dont have acces to Jacks and my buddy has some Flora Flex nutes laying around. I've started him on the 50/50 Bugbee method with silica and gypsum (formula from a year ago).
> 
> Flora Flex does advise to use hard water or add calmag but I wonder if the 50/50 amended medium already has enough cal and mag? Our water around here is like 65 PPM.


I mean it could be that the course is a little more focused on commercial grows, and with vermiculite being rather expensive it might be they are offering this as an alternative that is a little cheaper. If your Ca content is 65ppm I would think that is a little on the low side compared to the video, I think I estimated that their ppm of Ca is somewhere around 80-90.


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## Overgrowtho (Aug 28, 2021)

I have two new threads related to this thread. I hope you people will have a look and chime in.

About my recent grow/harvest using this media:





Wedding Cake. Critique my grow. Chopping-down day.


Based on these photos, how was my grow? In retrospect, I think I should have let the middle of the canopy grow/stretch a bit taller in Veg in order to get more colas like that big huge one seen there. (FYI I am using peat/vermiculite as discussed here). I am very happy with the quality on...



www.rollitup.org





About re-using the media:





Re-Using Soiless Media (Peat/Vermiculite)? Breaking down roots?


I am using the 50% peat and 50% vermiculite as advised by Dr. Bruce Bugbee and discussed in this: thread. My question is about, whether it might be possible or not to re-use the bag with the media after somehow breaking down the roots? For example one might need to help the roots break down...



www.rollitup.org


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## Southernontariogrower (Aug 28, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> I have two new threads related to this thread. I hope you people will have a look and chime in.
> 
> About my recent grow/harvest using this media:
> 
> ...


I reuse my soiless meduims all the time, lve got pots that l made medium almost a decade ago, reuse each year. Some get better each year.


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## Overgrowtho (Sep 3, 2021)

Southernontariogrower said:


> I reuse my soiless meduims all the time, lve got pots that l made medium almost a decade ago, reuse each year. Some get better each year.


What media do you use mate? I wonder if you add any amendments and how often (e.g. Dr Bugbee advised to add gypsum and lime to his mix).


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## Southernontariogrower (Sep 3, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> What media do you use mate? I wonder if you add any amendments and how often (e.g. Dr Bugbee advised to add gypsum and lime to his mix).


For years l amended each spring, buy more peat perlite rockdust lime wc etc and buy bigger pots. Gaia was goto for years, And this year l couldnt afford it so am using Pure by Cannapro. Medium is like a fine sand not wet or dry. Pots rootbound by flower no matter how big. Medium is technically soiless. Lime good ph buffer but will grow in acidic environment well too. Just give tapwater and ph will rise. Lime in city water too.


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## Overgrowtho (Sep 4, 2021)

Southernontariogrower said:


> For years l amended each spring, buy more peat perlite rockdust lime wc etc and buy bigger pots. Gaia was goto for years, And this year l couldnt afford it so am using Pure by Cannapro. Medium is like a fine sand not wet or dry. Pots rootbound by flower no matter how big. Medium is technically soiless. Lime good ph buffer but will grow in acidic environment well too. Just give tapwater and ph will rise. Lime in city water too.


Why are you using pots that cause roots to be bound? Why not use fabric pots? 

I noticed Dr. Bugbee also does not seem to use fabric pots.... but commented that rootbounding was not a problem since this is more like a soiless grow. It is! So why issues with root bounding?


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## Hiddengems (Sep 4, 2021)

The problem with bugbee stuff is he's not growing high thc strains for maximum quality flower output as his metric. His system counts total vegetative weight as yield.


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## Milky Weed (Sep 5, 2021)

I’m a pretty new grower, so I’m experimenting with some stuff. I have 8 plants in roots organic x FFoF and Happy tree amended with some extra vermiculite and perlite, and the other 12 are going to likely go into the type of soil Bruce advised. It will be interesting to take notes on any differences in soil vs the Bruce method.

I won’t be adding much nutrients until flower for the soil as my well water is 900ppm and pretty alkaline. But I will have to start feeding nuets pretty early for the peat and Verm only plants.

I am 100% sure it will not totally be Bruce’s method, because the soil the 12 plants are currently in is a mix of the 3 soils. And obviously this dirt will be going into the peat and verm mix as the core around the plant. I hope this does not completely ruin the method.


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## Overgrowtho (Sep 6, 2021)

Hiddengems said:


> The problem with bugbee stuff is he's not growing high thc strains for maximum quality flower output as his metric. His system counts total vegetative weight as yield.


Can you be more specific about the critique? Particularly, how might his method fall short in terms of high THC/Terpenes? 

I recently had my 2nd and best run with his method, and the quality was very high, along with a proper good 1.4 grams per watt rating! Nice! Albeit I'm using different nutrients simply according to what I have available here.


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## Hiddengems (Sep 6, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Can you be more specific about the critique? Particularly, how might his method fall short in terms of high THC/Terpenes?
> 
> I recently had my 2nd and best run with his method, and the quality was very high, along with a proper good 1.4 grams per watt rating! Nice! Albeit I'm using different nutrients simply according to what I have available here.


No idea about terps or thc levels. But his yield is counted as total plant weight, not grade a hard flower.

Some strains can easily put out a ton of vegetative mass that's 30% larf bud.

Nothing wrong with his medium choice at all, and his work on lighting is great. But many growers like to lower nitrogen through flower to get less leafy buds.


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## Overgrowtho (Sep 7, 2021)

Hiddengems said:


> many growers like to lower nitrogen through flower to get less leafy buds


Fair point. Personally I use a 2 part A and B for veg and an A and B for flower. While still using his medium.


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## Vizzaro (Sep 15, 2021)

Hiddengems said:


> No idea about terps or thc levels. But his yield is counted as total plant weight, not grade a hard flower.
> 
> Some strains can easily put out a ton of vegetative mass that's 30% larf bud.
> 
> Nothing wrong with his medium choice at all, and his work on lighting is great. But many growers like to lower nitrogen through flower to get less leafy buds.


I don't know about that. I have been using Bugbee's Method since I started growing and I'm on my 4th grow. My 2nd and 3rd grows produced some nice fat dense buds/colas. And that was just 20-10-20 Peat Lite from start to finish. I did no flushing (that's already been dis-proven) and I did not do any 48hr-24hr dark period, just chopped it down once I knew it was ready.


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## BonnMac (Sep 15, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I don't know about that. I have been using Bugbee's Method since I started growing and I'm on my 4th grow. My 2nd and 3rd grows produced some nice fat dense buds/colas. And that was just 20-10-20 Peat Lite from start to finish. I did no flushing (that's already been dis-proven) and I did not do any 48hr-24hr dark period, just chopped it down once I knew it was ready.


I concur.
Wrapping up my second grow.
Had to give most of the first grow away.
My problem is, I enjoy cultivating this soilless media / nutrients so much that I’m more hooked on growing than consuming.


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## Vizzaro (Sep 15, 2021)

BonnMac said:


> I concur.
> Wrapping up my second grow.
> Had to give most of the first grow away.
> My problem is, I enjoy cultivating this soilless media / nutrients so much that I’m more hooked on growing than consuming.


I am enjoying it too and now I am interested in Dr. Bugbee's new soilless media mix. And right now I am trying out my first Autoflower (Bruce Banner). I had an accident causing a stem split as I was putting a scrog net on the plant. I think that may have stunted its growth and has much less leaves on all the top nodes.


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## OneMoreRip (Sep 18, 2021)

Hi, just wanted to share what I have going, ~using bugabee method. I’ve only been using it for about a month now but it seems pretty nice so far, some of my best looking seedling to date.


That’s my girls, maybe a male or 2, mostly auto flowers. Ranging from over a month, to a week old. The oldest ones were stressed by over nute and some over water too. 

All of these plants were removed from a different substrate (fine vermiculite and peat), yesterday I switched the fine it with the extra coarse, it looks like all the plants took it pretty well.







thE fine works really well for seedlings but I think that is what helped me overwater. my exact mix now is 50 peat, 40 coarse virmuclite 10 fine virmuclite. also pelletized gypsum and dolo lime, not powder, no scale, eyeballed the right amount, I think a little heavy.

Here is the ferts I will be using throughout, ~exclusively. 200 ppm of this every watering and Folier spray seems to make the plants happy (200ppm tap water being used, 400ppm total), from day 0-30, at least. Was trying to keep water ph sub 6 but it rises to 7, sitting outside, I’ll care when the plants do.



it was the closest thing I could find to 2-1-2 from this company and I wanted to give them a try, I like the ingredients they are using. On second look I think they had something closer to 2-1-2, but I don’t want to look again haha. So far I really like it and I think this gallon should last forever.

I guess that’s all for now but here is some of my best looking seedlings.


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## Vizzaro (Sep 20, 2021)

Grow looks good, congrats!


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## Vizzaro (Sep 21, 2021)

Did anyone know about or participate in the Dr. Bugbee AMA on Reddit? Some very interesting stuff in there. 1 being he changed the recipe for his media to have more silica in it. The new recipe is 75% Peat, 13% Vermiculite, 12% Rice Hulls and the soil is amended with 0.7kg/m3 Wetting Agent, 1kg/m3 Wollastonite, 1.3kg/m3 Hydrated Lime. He also adds Potassium Silicate to his fertilizer when watering his plants. 

__
https://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/paoigz

Stating in his research that "The ideal Si media would have a high and consistent rate of Si release over several months. "








Silica Release Rates from Common Media Substrates


Silica provides beneficial effects to many plants, but it is minimally availabl...



ashs.confex.com





Here is his other findings on how to "Enhancing the Solubility of Silica for Liquid Fertilization ". RO water pH'd to 11 was perfect for solubility of Potassium Silicate.








Enhancing the Solubility of Silica for Liquid Fertilization


Consistent delivery of up to 1 mM silicon (Si) to the root-zone is beneficial f...



ashs.confex.com


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## Overgrowtho (Sep 21, 2021)

I am thinking about following this new media formula but I wonder if it is mainly for people using the 20-10-20 nutrient he always goes on about. In which case perhaps this not really important for those of use using a full and proper cannabis hydro nute?

I can find all the materials, except I'm not sure what/where to find the the wetting agent. I thought these are normally liquid so how can it be added to a media?

Thanks for sharing this, I look forward to reading through...... and hopefully will get some of these questions answered in doing so. Or if anyone can advise, please do!


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## Vizzaro (Sep 21, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> I am thinking about following this new media formula but I wonder if it is mainly for people using the 20-10-20 nutrient he always goes on about. In which case perhaps this not really important for those of use using a full and proper cannabis hydro nute?
> 
> I can find all the materials, except I'm not sure what/where to find the the wetting agent. I thought these are normally liquid so how can it be added to a media?
> 
> Thanks for sharing this, I look forward to reading through...... and hopefully will get some of these questions answered in doing so. Or if anyone can advise, please do!


He uses Peat because "We use media with peat to help buffer pH changes. " As for hydro I think as long as you are giving your plant a "high and consistent rate of Si release over several months" you should be fine. Also silica raises the pH of the water so just monitor that and make sure it's in the right range.

For the wetting agent I am not sure what brand he uses. I though he would mix it in his media with some water to keep it moist since if Peat is left to dry out it becomes very hydrophobic. When I mix my media I also add water to it to keep it moist and I can see how a wetting agent will help with that.

I am more blown away by how much more Silica you can give your plants. I guess doing only 50% Vermiculite just isn't enough Silica. I am now adding Armor Si to my nutrient solution to give my plants silica with every watering. Wollastonite is hard to find here is Southern California, I believe it only comes from Canada. Potassium Silicate is also hard to find since its sold out everywhere right now in SoCal so I just bought a bottle of Armor Si. Rice Hulls is also hard to find at a store where I am at but I did find some on Amazon but its 3lbs for $20 when other online stores are selling 50lb bags of Rice Hulls for $20 but the shipping is expensive. Ugh, this is hard trying to find all of these ingredients. So far I have found 1 online supplier that has everything I need but the shipping is going to cost me $107 at the cheapest and I just don't have that kind of money right now. Dr. Bugbee did mention that his old recipe still works fine but that the new one obviously is just that much better.


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## Overgrowtho (Sep 21, 2021)

I guess it would make sense to just put some wetting agent in the fertigation solution, and perhaps the exact type is not too important. 

I am kind of eager to splurge on Bugbee's course and get all my questions answered... but I am still scared that someone like me whose not even using 20-10-20 is running around in circles by nevertheless trying to benefit from these updated amendments/formulas.

Potassium silicate? It doesnt seem to exist around where I live. All else, I can get pretty easily and cheaply (but what is that solid wetting agent he uses, I still wonder).

For me I might wanna add some wetting agent to my reservoir, amend media to diff ratio, add the wallistonite and rice hulls. 

I am just confused about where to get potassium silicate! Cant find it at all. Also confused: What is that wetting agent, and whether this whole change may jive with my cannabis hydros nute (not 20-10-20) well or not. Moreover, before doing stuff I like to know what I am doing so I should really buy the damn expensive course.... prohibitively expensive perhaps. I wonder why no more gypsum.

Anyways the major takeaway for me is to: re-portion the media to new ratio, add husks, add hulls, silica and wetting agent.
I will be brave and likely adopt this for next run, but I am a bit afraid to mess up a crop! And I have major questions....


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## Milky Weed (Oct 6, 2021)

Well guys, it seems like I have the opportunity to take Bruce’s class, what do y’all think? I don’t even have a diploma but I think I can handle the course. It’s a good bit of money to sink in, just having minor doubts about myself


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## BonnMac (Oct 6, 2021)

Milky Weed said:


> Well guys, it seems like I have the opportunity to take Bruce’s class, what do y’all think? I don’t even have a diploma but I think I can handle the course. It’s a good bit of money to sink in, just having minor doubts about myself


Go for it.
Knowledge is power!


----------



## Vizzaro (Oct 12, 2021)

Milky Weed said:


> Well guys, it seems like I have the opportunity to take Bruce’s class, what do y’all think? I don’t even have a diploma but I think I can handle the course. It’s a good bit of money to sink in, just having minor doubts about myself


I think you should go for it. I would if I could. I feel like just watching is videos just isn't enough and I'm really interested in what else he has to teach.


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 13, 2021)

Def go for it. I am seriously considering. I am now planning on testing his new formula alongside the old one to see if any significant differences I can notice.... will take like 4-5 months before I see the final result however.


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## Milky Weed (Oct 23, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> Def go for it. I am seriously considering. I am now planning on testing his new formula alongside the old one to see if any significant differences I can notice.... will take like 4-5 months before I see the final result however.


i highly suggest it, really good class.


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## BonnMac (Oct 23, 2021)

Milky Weed said:


> i highly suggest it, really good class.


I’m in.


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## Overgrowtho (Oct 25, 2021)

@Vizzaro @BonnMac @Milky Weed 
Hey guys, give me some more tidbits of learning from the class? I know the new media formula, but what other highlights have you learned? Please convince me to take the class!


----------



## Milky Weed (Oct 25, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> @Vizzaro @BonnMac @Milky Weed
> Hey guys, give me some more tidbits of learning from the class? I know the new media formula, but what other highlights have you learned? Please convince me to take the class!


It covers a lot, from root to shoot. Has some basic general knowledge but also teaches some results from newer research that they are doing. You may be able to find some of their published work online to get an idea of what they are teaching.


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## Vizzaro (Oct 28, 2021)

Overgrowtho said:


> @Vizzaro @BonnMac @Milky Weed
> Hey guys, give me some more tidbits of learning from the class? I know the new media formula, but what other highlights have you learned? Please convince me to take the class!


I don't know, that Dr.Bugbee AMA on Reddit got me excited to want to learn more from him. And if I had the money I would take the class.


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## Doc50holliday (Nov 27, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> View attachment 4882374
> Here is another update on my grow. I am 33 days into flower.


looks great man! You mind if I ask if you used RO or tap water for this?


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## Doc50holliday (Nov 27, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> That is exactly what I did. I may have gone a bit too high with my EC towards the end giving my plants an EC of 1.4 which made the EC go up past 1.5 every time I watered but with a little overwatering it would drop back down. This time I am going to stick with and EC of 1.1 and see how that goes. I got a decent yield off of my grow, 13oz's but the overall smell isn't all that great to me. Maybe cause I spent too much time around my plants, I don't know. I guess I was hoping to grow some dank smelling weed like from a dispensary. It get's me high that's for sure. Does properly drying and curing make that big of a difference in smell and taste?


Yes, a proper dry and cure makes a huge different in smell and taste.


----------



## Vizzaro (Nov 27, 2021)

Doc50holliday said:


> looks great man! You mind if I ask if you used RO or tap water for this?


I used my tap water which is a bit hard at an EC of 0.5. But my plants do fine.


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## Milky Weed (Nov 27, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I used my tap water which is a bit hard at an EC of 0.5. But my plants do fine.


I second this. Mine comes out .6, I tried RO water but found out real quick it’s easier to leave minerals in the water than take them out and put back in.


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## Southernontariogrower (Nov 27, 2021)

Ive watched all his you tube videos, very informative, some 5x6 times or more. Definately would be an excellent course and well worth whateved it costs, knowledge is powerful.


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## Doc50holliday (Nov 28, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> I used my tap water which is a bit hard at an EC of 0.5. But my plants do fine.


Awesome. Your plants looked very healthy dude 

I’ve watched Bruce bugbees videos probably over a year ago and always wanted to give it a shot but just never got to it. Just stuck with my hydroponic rock wool set up but I just ordered all the ingredients to give this a shot.

I think the dolomite lime I got is going to be very small pellets and not the powder form like he had. Did you use powder / pellets or notice any difference between the two? I may just crush them up


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## Southernontariogrower (Nov 28, 2021)

Doc50holliday said:


> Awesome. Your plants looked very healthy dude
> 
> I’ve watched Bruce bugbees videos probably over a year ago and always wanted to give it a shot but just never got to it. Just stuck with my hydroponic rock wool set up but I just ordered all the ingredients to give this a shot.
> 
> I think the dolomite lime I got is going to be very small pellets and not the powder form like he had. Did you use powder / pellets or notice any difference between the two? I may just crush them up


You can grind up the lime into a powder, brings up the ph of peatmoss. Perlite and vermiculite mix was the olden day hydro mix. Vermiculite provides silica too. Promix is pretty much same medium he makes.


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## Vizzaro (Nov 30, 2021)

Doc50holliday said:


> Awesome. Your plants looked very healthy dude
> 
> I’ve watched Bruce bugbees videos probably over a year ago and always wanted to give it a shot but just never got to it. Just stuck with my hydroponic rock wool set up but I just ordered all the ingredients to give this a shot.
> 
> I think the dolomite lime I got is going to be very small pellets and not the powder form like he had. Did you use powder / pellets or notice any difference between the two? I may just crush them up


Pallet Dolomite Lime, to be honest I didn't know it came in pallets. I got the wrong dolomite lime as it was more like large salt or tiny pebbles I crushed my dolomite lime with a Stone Mortar Bowl, it did a good job at making it more like a powder. I now use hydrated lime since it's part of Dr. Bugbee's updated media that being said I've had no problems when I crushed my lime into a Powder and I never needed to add anymore lime either.


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## Vizzaro (Nov 30, 2021)

Also quick update on my last grow which was a Bruce Banner Auto flower from ILGM. I got 10oz of dried cured bud off this plant.


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## cobshopgrow (Nov 30, 2021)

nice to see some results, looking good.
what does his updated mix contains?
did he went more organic?


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## ComfortCreator (Nov 30, 2021)

No class has ever taught me half as well as a person I know who has experience in the relevant field. 

I think a lot of the course is designed for a career in a commercial facility, many cost, space and IPM issues that wont be relevant or of interest at home. 

It certainly would be good to take the class but I think you are probably getting everything he could help you with on youtube. 2c


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## Vizzaro (Nov 30, 2021)

cobshopgrow said:


> nice to see some results, looking good.
> what does his updated mix contains?
> did he went more organic?


His updated mix is:
75% peat
13% vermiculite
12% rice hulls
0.7kg/m3 wetting agent
1kg/m3 wollastonite
1.3kg/m3 hydrated lime


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## cobshopgrow (Nov 30, 2021)

thank you!


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## Southernontariogrower (Nov 30, 2021)

Doc50holliday said:


> Awesome. Your plants looked very healthy dude
> 
> I’ve watched Bruce bugbees videos probably over a year ago and always wanted to give it a shot but just never got to it. Just stuck with my hydroponic rock wool set up but I just ordered all the ingredients to give this a shot.
> 
> I think the dolomite lime I got is going to be very small pellets and not the powder form like he had. Did you use powder / pellets or notice any difference between the two? I may just crush them up


Coffee grinder or pestle and mortar. Grind it up to a fine powder


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## Southernontariogrower (Nov 30, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> His updated mix is:
> 75% peat
> 13% vermiculite
> 12% rice hulls
> ...


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## Doc50holliday (Nov 30, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Pallet Dolomite Lime, to be honest I didn't know it came in pallets. I got the wrong dolomite lime as it was more like large salt or tiny pebbles I crushed my dolomite lime with a Stone Mortar Bowl, it did a good job at making it more like a powder. I now use hydrated lime since it's part of Dr. Bugbee's updated media that being said I've had no problems when I crushed my lime into a Powder and I never needed to add anymore lime either.


Nice! Thanks for the feedback! It’s nice to find a thread that has active members and showing some good results. I’ll definitely most my updates in here as well.

As far as mixing the peat and vermiculite (before he switched his formula) that was just by volume, correct?


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## Vizzaro (Dec 2, 2021)

Southernontariogrower said:


> Coffee grinder or pestle and mortar. Grind it up to a fine powder


Pestle and mortar.


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## Vizzaro (Dec 2, 2021)

Doc50holliday said:


> Nice! Thanks for the feedback! It’s nice to find a thread that has active members and showing some good results. I’ll definitely most my updates in here as well.
> 
> As far as mixing the peat and vermiculite (before he switched his formula) that was just by volume, correct?


Yeah, I can't wait to see your updates and results!

I did my mixing by volume, ft³ (cubic foot).


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## Northeastskier (Dec 2, 2021)

Professor Bugbee's videos Photons to Food and Far Red, the Forgotten Photon, are absolutely awesome. Have a notebook of full of his knowledge that would have take me ten lifetimes to accumulate on my own. Who couldn't spend 100 grand at Apogee Instruments buying gadgets?

We no longer trim off the bottom leaves off our plants. Rather we get them to the top by zapping them with 730 and watch the "photobological effects", and other cool phrases that Prof. B says. The man is a demigod. CO2+H20>CH2O+O2 ... the man is like the PBS Electric Company, but for growing Cannabis. Hale Bugbee!


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## Horselover fat (Dec 2, 2021)

His growth medium is prolly quite good, but I think his goal with it is consistency and ease. He needs medium which is as consistent as possible between plants to show how different parameters affect the plants.


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## cobshopgrow (Dec 2, 2021)

yes, seems so, in commercial gardening they rely still on peat as it gives such consistent reuslts.

have he ever mentioned his opinion in regards to organics, like worm casting etc.?

btw. his mixes seem to be rich in silica, i think he have mentioned that its important for the cannabioids.
looks like he really go heavy on it.
rice hulls, vermiculite and wollastonite .


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## Doc50holliday (Dec 8, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Yeah, I can't wait to see your updates and results!
> 
> I did my mixing by volume, ft³ (cubic foot).


Got all my stuff, getting ready to make my first pot! Hey when you initially mix the media do you wet it? I thought I saw someone say it needs to be moist for a few days before using or something like that. May have been somewhere else though.


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## Doc50holliday (Dec 14, 2021)

Vizzaro said:


> Yeah, I can't wait to see your updates and results!
> 
> I did my mixing by volume, ft³ (cubic foot).


Hey man! Just transplanted my first plant into the bugbee mix. My first watering I had 6.0 PH 650 PPM going in

5.8 PH 380 PPMs coming out. I guess it’s better that the run off is lower than higher?

Should I water a little less with less leaching to raise the PPMs in the run off to be within the acceptable levels?


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## Milky Weed (Jan 22, 2022)

Finished the class and did well. Looking foreward to the future. It was mentioned possibly a 2nd course will be coming out, a more advanced course. 

I have learned alot. Most of it on these forums, glean your information carefully. I will try to share what i have learned at some point once i take better notes


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## Wastei (Jan 23, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> Finished the class and did well. Looking foreward to the future. It was mentioned possibly a 2nd course will be coming out, a more advanced course.
> 
> *I have learned alot. Most of it on these forums,* glean your information carefully. I will try to share what i have learned at some point once i take better notes


What would you like to contribute on a forum with gathered info from many peoples with 30+ years of experience? Not much new under the sun tbh, it's a plant after all and all the information you need should be available if you can do your own research and work on here. 

Be prepared to be bashed since most things is already accessible on here. Many people on here got actual education in agriculture, not a simple course that takes a couple of hours to complete.

Hope you learned something new but I also hope you're not trying to educate others from doing a simple course. Theory is one thing, practical knowledge through experience is a whole other deal.


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## Overgrowtho (Jan 23, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> Finished the class and did well. Looking foreward to the future. It was mentioned possibly a 2nd course will be coming out, a more advanced course.
> 
> I have learned alot. Most of it on these forums, glean your information carefully. I will try to share what i have learned at some point once i take better notes


Please tell us your review of the course and main learning points?


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## Milky Weed (Jan 23, 2022)

Wastei said:


> What would you like to contribute on a forum with gathered info from many peoples with 30+ years of experience? Not much new under the sun tbh, it's a plant after all and all the information you need should be available if you can do your own research and work on here.
> 
> Be prepared to be bashed since most things is already accessible on here. Many people on here got actual education in agriculture, not a simple course that takes a couple of hours to complete.
> 
> Hope you learned something new but I also hope you're not trying to educate others from doing a simple course. Theory is one thing, practical knowledge through experience is a whole other deal.


Always prepared to be bashed here 

Making sure what I do share is not simple rehashed newbie stuff is my goal. I’m not an educator, nor trying to attain the status of one. Just want to share some talking points. I fully understand this is nowhere near a few years long agricultural education.


Overgrowtho said:


> Please tell us your review of the course and main learning points?


There was a lot of lectures they ended up adding, and overall I feel it was worth it, especially for the first module for the root zone, that had almost 23 sessions in itself.

Value for money 5/5
Rehashing basic topics 3/5
New scientific research 5/5

The scientific research was the most important to me, they dived deep on how temperature affects cannabanoids, how UV light interacts with cannabis, things of this nature. I do not regret this class for a second. They taught a few mathematical formulas for optimal nutrient strengths based on growth rate. Really too much to list here.

It’s going to be a bit before I feel confident enough in my own abilities to pass on the info, but it will be done.


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## Doc50holliday (Jan 24, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> Always prepared to be bashed here
> 
> Making sure what I do share is not simple rehashed newbie stuff is my goal. I’m not an educator, nor trying to attain the status of one. Just want to share some talking points. I fully understand this is nowhere near a few years long agricultural education.
> 
> ...


Feel free to educate! I’m always a student .
How much was the class if you don’t mind me asking? I browsed around on the site but didn’t find anything in regards to price.


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## curious2garden (Jan 24, 2022)

Doc50holliday said:


> .......snip.........I browsed around on the site but didn’t find anything in regards to price.


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## Frank Nitty (Jan 24, 2022)

HydroKid239 said:


> I've watched a couple of his vid's when I had the time.. unfortunately since they were 30-40+ min some well over an hour... I smoked while watching, and BAM.. memory gets hazy.


Dr Bugbee is the truth!!! I can ALMOST understand what he's saying!!! I haven't tried it because I'm getting away from using liquid nutes,but I believe that what he says is true... If he has a plan for soil,I would love to cee it!!!


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## Overgrowtho (Jan 25, 2022)

Frank Nitty said:


> I'm getting away from using liquid nutes


Hey I've got powder of his nutrients. 

It was not easy to get and i'm in Asia, but you dont have to use "liquid" bottles for it.


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## Overgrowtho (Jan 25, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> It’s going to be a bit before I feel confident enough in my own abilities to pass on the info, but it will be done.


Let me ask a couple of basic questions to get to the practical and pragmatic. 

We've already discussed the new media formula in this thread. 

How about any updates on the nutrient composition? Is he still recommending the same nutrients for the entire run or did he update to add more of P and K in flower yet?

Also, if anyone can answer: his formula does not really have micronutrients? Its just the NPK + his composition of the media which of course has mostly inert nutrient profile except for the silica and calcium etc... Overall it seems to lack the other micro nutrients. Isn't that causing a deficiency?


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## Milky Weed (Jan 25, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> Let me ask a couple of basic questions to get to the practical and pragmatic.
> 
> We've already discussed the new media formula in this thread.
> 
> ...


Numbers are for hydroponics, and depending on growth rates this will need to be tweaked for different enviroments.The refills are for when flowering starts.
NO-78ppm
NH-0---35ppm refill
P-31ppm
K-140ppm
Ca-60ppm
Mg-19ppm
S-26ppm
Si-17ppm
Fe-1.4ppm---.6ppm refillf for 2ppm total
B-0.4ppm
Mn-0.2ppm
Zn-0.2ppm
Cu-0.1ppm
Cl-1ppm
Mo-9.6 Parts per billion
Ni-0.2 Parts per trillion


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## Doc50holliday (Jan 25, 2022)

curious2garden said:


> View attachment 5073724


Don’t know what that is, thanks though. I reached out to their email.


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## Overgrowtho (Jan 25, 2022)

So your saying Bugbee has done away with the whole 20-10-20? How does one get their hands on this new nutrient formula??


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## Milky Weed (Jan 25, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> So your saying Bugbee has done away with the whole 20-10-20? How does one get their hands on this new nutrient formula??


No, 20-10-20 is still viable in this situation, those are just the parameters to shoot for. I assume you mix your own from base elements. Im sure there are many formulas that will get you in the ballpark of that. It helps to find the actual elemental % of an element in a compound, like the potassium they use in fertilizers is k2o. I believe its roughly 80% elemental potassium. It is not so black and white and calculations must be made.


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## Scotnvin (Jan 30, 2022)

Is this right? NPK 20-10-20 is 120-26-100 ppm.

In reddit interview Dr Bugbee states: 

"Here is what we know so far: 15 ppm P is adequate during vegetative growth, but unfertilized cannabis flower are a strong sink for P and accumulate more than 1% P in the flower buds. This is not needed to any physiology function, and it is stored, partly as phytic acid. The flowers can be such a strong sink for P that they suck P from the leaves, and this can create a P deficiency in the leaves. So we now recommend going to 50 ppm about 4 to 5 weeks prior to harvest.

The other nutrients stay the same throughout the life cycle."

NPK 20-20-20 calculates out to 120-52-100 ppm.

So, this is what I should use during flower?

Will my EC be different if I stay with the 0.6g/l ?

Thanks


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## Overgrowtho (Jan 30, 2022)

Good questions. How would one aquire these chemicals in a new market? Just contact a chemical company?

his formula does not really have micronutrients?


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## Doc50holliday (Jan 31, 2022)

Doc50holliday said:


> Hey man! Just transplanted my first plant into the bugbee mix. My first watering I had 6.0 PH 650 PPM going in
> 
> 5.8 PH 380 PPMs coming out. I guess it’s better that the run off is lower than higher?
> 
> Should I water a little less with less leaching to raise the PPMs in the run off to be within the acceptable levels?


Following up to my previous post.. just got into week 2 of flower. That sorry looking spindly plant I originally posted has has really began growing vigorously. Using the (old) higbee method from
YouTube. Considering taking his online course as well!


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## Doc50holliday (Feb 23, 2022)

Plants are looking good. Very healthy, leaves have never showed sign of any deficiency issues. 

Only thing is, buds seem small to me. I’m running Lucas formula on other plants and the buds are significantly bigger. But, with that being said. Even the fan leaves on this guy are super frosty, it’s pretty nuts. 

I’m thinking I might throw in jacks professional bloom booster in the first week or two of flower. What do you guys think?


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## Vizzaro (Feb 24, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> Always prepared to be bashed here
> 
> Making sure what I do share is not simple rehashed newbie stuff is my goal. I’m not an educator, nor trying to attain the status of one. Just want to share some talking points. I fully understand this is nowhere near a few years long agricultural education.
> 
> ...


I have questions about the root zone. What if anything did you lean that you found to be really helpful with keeping the root zone optimized? 

Also about his new media Mix I know he uses 75% Peat Moss, 13% Vermiculite, 12% Rice Hulls amended with Wollastonite at 1g per Liter of media, Hydrated Lime I am not to sure how many grams per liter of media they use and I saw that they add a wetting agent to their media, do you know what wetting agent they use and how its applied to their media?


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## Vizzaro (Feb 24, 2022)

Doc50holliday said:


> Plants are looking good. Very healthy, leaves have never showed sign of any deficiency issues.
> 
> Only thing is, buds seem small to me. I’m running Lucas formula on other plants and the buds are significantly bigger. But, with that being said. Even the fan leaves on this guy are super frosty, it’s pretty nuts.
> 
> I’m thinking I might throw in jacks professional bloom booster in the first week or two of flower. What do you guys think?


Could be different phenotypes. But I am not sure. That is great to hear you are not having any issues. I am starting to have issue with my grow. My tap water which is what I have been using since I have been growing has gone up in EC from 0.5 to 0.7 so I feel that is too hard to give to my plants now and I believe it may had caused some nutrient imbalance in my plants unfortunately. So now I am trying to correct that. Ugh this gets exhausting sometimes.


----------



## Milky Weed (Feb 25, 2022)

Vizzaro said:


> I have questions about the root zone. What if anything did you lean that you found to be really helpful with keeping the root zone optimized?
> 
> Also about his new media Mix I know he uses 75% Peat Moss, 13% Vermiculite, 12% Rice Hulls amended with Wollastonite at 1g per Liter of media, Hydrated Lime I am not to sure how many grams per liter of media they use and I saw that they add a wetting agent to their media, do you know what wetting agent they use and how its applied to their media?


He taught how things drain, and how container height can really affect how media behaves. Also how micros in media is not always beneficial, especally in dtw hydro where the micro-organisms can consume too much oxygen in the media.

He noted its mainly an issue when growers use fresh pine shavings to grow in, too many micro-organisms cause oxygen deprivation to the roots.

I dont believe this applies to organic growing.


----------



## Doc50holliday (Feb 25, 2022)

Vizzaro said:


> Could be different phenotypes. But I am not sure. That is great to hear you are not having any issues. I am starting to have issue with my grow. My tap water which is what I have been using since I have been growing has gone up in EC from 0.5 to 0.7 so I feel that is too hard to give to my plants now and I believe it may had caused some nutrient imbalance in my plants unfortunately. So now I am trying to correct that. Ugh this gets exhausting sometimes.


Bro! Your grows and progress were the ones than inspired me to try this method

honestly I’ve noticed my EC running higher and Higher over time and I’ve simply just watered more over time to give them that flush. I noticed my EC climbing up a bit as well and I just threw some more PH balanced dol lime + gypsum media on top and all has been”well”.

I still feel like your plants were better. Had bigger buds and what not. I had a zillion shoots which probably contributed to smaller buds bud according to jacks. They recommend a bloom booster on the first week or two of flower, I’m going to try that in my next run. 

My Lucas formula buds were all bigger than my bugbee Method buds. I think I’m going to add a bloom booster from jacks (bugbees preferred nutes in his YouTube video) in the first couple weeks of flower. But at this point I guess it’s not “bugbee” so maybe I shouldn’t continue posting here.


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## Vizzaro (Feb 25, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> He taught how things drain, and how container height can really affect how media behaves. Also how micros in media is not always beneficial, especally in dtw hydro where the micro-organisms can consume too much oxygen in the media.
> 
> He noted its mainly an issue when growers use fresh pine shavings to grow in, too many micro-organisms cause oxygen deprivation to the roots.
> 
> I dont believe this applies to organic growing.


Thank you for the reply and for the info. Any information on his media mix and what wetting agent he adds to his media mix? I know he says they keep their media pretty fluffy so the plants are not at all stressed in the root zone. I'm guessing he uses Yucca Powder (since I'm unable to find any other powdered wetting agent). And about the containers is it good to have a wide container or a tall container? I think I may have compacted my media into my pots and it's causing issues.


----------



## Vizzaro (Feb 25, 2022)

Doc50holliday said:


> Bro! Your grows and progress were the ones than inspired me to try this method
> 
> honestly I’ve noticed my EC running higher and Higher over time and I’ve simply just watered more over time to give them that flush. I noticed my EC climbing up a bit as well and I just threw some more PH balanced dol lime + gypsum media on top and all has been”well”.
> 
> ...


Thank you for that. Yes I would say the one with more shoots would have the smaller buds unfortunately. There is usually a happy medium in there. I try to only top once cause of this.

I am trying my best to correct the issue. I know it's user error aka my fault. Haha it's just difficult trying to determine where I went wrong. But it's all part of the learning process. I will still continue to grow this way. Right now I'm just trying to perfect it. Haha. Your plants look great and I can't wait to see them fatten up. Keep up the good work.


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## Milky Weed (Feb 25, 2022)

Vizzaro said:


> Thank you for the reply and for the info. Any information on his media mix and what wetting agent he adds to his media mix? I know he says they keep their media pretty fluffy so the plants are not at all stressed in the root zone. I'm guessing he uses Yucca Powder (since I'm unable to find any other powdered wetting agent). And about the containers is it good to have a wide container or a tall container? I think I may have compacted my media into my pots and it's causing issues.


Tall containers are generally best, but anything can work. He never mentioned what wetting agent they use, just listed a few wetting agents. Ide assume an industrial one, yucca is kind of expensive.


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## Vizzaro (Feb 25, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> Tall containers are generally best, but anything can work. He never mentioned what wetting agent they use, just listed a few wetting agents. Ide assume an industrial one, yucca is kind of expensive.


Yes, yucca is kind of expensive but I didn't know what to get or what kind of wetting agent you can mix into your media. Tall containers work best, really?! I would have assumed a wider container okay well that's something new. What about how they are able to keep their media or any media fluffy so that the roots are not at all stressed and are able to get enough oxygen?


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## Milky Weed (Feb 25, 2022)

Vizzaro said:


> Yes, yucca is kind of expensive but I didn't know what to get or what kind of wetting agent you can mix into your media. Tall containers work best, really?! I would have assumed a wider container okay well that's something new. What about how they are able to keep their media or any media fluffy so that the roots are not at all stressed and are able to get enough oxygen?


So he really did not mention anything besides the mix thats allready floating around, just the rice hulls and peat for fluff. He was talking about possibly even moving away from rice hulls and replacing it with wollastonite for the silica. Peat should be fluffy enough on its own, if you re-use it may have to re-fluff it somehow. I just toss it in the garden and use fresh peat.

I use Promix bx that had wetting agent built in i love it. Also taller containers drain better than shorter wider ones.


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## Overgrowtho (Feb 25, 2022)

I've read that they use:

Aquagro 2000G

But this was hard to find for me.

And there are many liquid ones that could perhaps be placed into our fertigation reservoirs.

Understanding that it might be less ideal; but in lieu of a medium-based solid surfactant, I wondered if a liquid surfactant might be helpful to use in it's place? So I asked via email and the guy who replied said: yes.


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## Vizzaro (Feb 25, 2022)

Milky Weed said:


> So he really did not mention anything besides the mix thats allready floating around, just the rice hulls and peat for fluff. He was talking about possibly even moving away from rice hulls and replacing it with wollastonite for the silica. Peat should be fluffy enough on its own, if you re-use it may have to re-fluff it somehow. I just toss it in the garden and use fresh peat.
> 
> I use Promix bx that had wetting agent built in i love it. Also taller containers drain better than shorter wider ones.


Promix bx, I am checking it out and it looks like a nice recipe and it has nutrients in it already. How do you like/prefer that compared to Dr. Bugbee's mix?

Also I take it that packing any media into a pot is a bad idea cause it won't be as fluffy thus causing the roots to suffocate. So then that might be where I went wrong with this grow. I have been having issues with the media drying out and becoming hydrophobic so the water would just run out the side so I figured if I compact it more it would stop that from happening. 

Also about water. Does Dr. Bugbee talk about water and if R/O and does he talk about alternatives to hard tap water? I think my tap water is too hard with it being an EC of 0.7.


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## Vizzaro (Feb 25, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> I've read that they use:
> 
> Aquagro 2000G
> 
> ...


Thank you for this. I was able to find a shop close by that is a distributor of Aquagro 2000G. Maybe this is what I need for my Peat mix. Also I do have some yucca powder on me, would I be able to mix that into my media and have it be effective?


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## Milky Weed (Feb 25, 2022)

Vizzaro said:


> Promix bx, I am checking it out and it looks like a nice recipe and it has nutrients in it already. How do you like/prefer that compared to Dr. Bugbee's mix?
> 
> Also I take it that packing any media into a pot is a bad idea cause it won't be as fluffy thus causing the roots to suffocate. So then that might be where I went wrong with this grow. I have been having issues with the media drying out and becoming hydrophobic so the water would just run out the side so I figured if I compact it more it would stop that from happening.
> 
> Also about water. Does Dr. Bugbee talk about water and if R/O and does he talk about alternatives to hard tap water? I think my tap water is too hard with it being an EC of 0.7.


Ill message you about what i do, and i just call it bugbee media because its dtw peat. I generally have a replacement for most of what he calls for in the mix.


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## Vizzaro (Feb 25, 2022)

Also I don't think I got a chance to update you all on my last grow which was a Girl Scout Cookies Extreme (Auto) from ILGM. The seed was given to me by a freind. I got 5oz of the plant, unfortunately I stunted her in her veg cycle but I am still happy with the results.
This plant was grown with Dr.Bugbee's new updated mix minus the wetting agent.


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## Derbud420 (Feb 27, 2022)

Dr Bruce's method is for Mars , right? Substantial consideration goes into weight I assume. You can adapt some of his philosophy to your grow. I think you can't go wrong watching his classes


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 3, 2022)

Derbud420 said:


> Dr Bruce's method is for Mars , right? Substantial consideration goes into weight I assume. You can adapt some of his philosophy to your grow. I think you can't go wrong watching his classes


No not only or explicitly for Mars, but NASA helps to fund some of his work.

I used to think his system was pretty simple. Just use the formula for the media and the fertilizer. However now I see that the lime should be dosed according to the pH of the peat you are working with (mine is already 5.5-6 so I really shouldn't add lime. I think. Does that sound right? Bugbee used peat which was at pH 4 which is why he had to add lime to bring it to 5.5.)

Also the 20-10-20 is no longer the formula he uses. As we know from the above conversations, he is adding all kinds of things like epsom salt and various micro nutrients... hard to know exactly what and how much (anyone?) as it is still evolving too.

So if you saw his original video on Youtube then you must be as confused as me. One day however, Bugbee will start selling his own nutrient formula I've heard (great, another cannabis specific product...).

Now I am using 20-10-20 in veg and growth is a fine albeit maybe a bit slow. I have some 10-10-30 to use for flowering soon. Do I dare to run that in flowering with only that NPK and basically no other liquid micro nutrients added (maybe some epsom and kelp)? Or perhaps for now, it is better to stay using what I know works: a full mix of micro and macro nutrients as provided by typical cannabis nutrient companies specifically for cannabis. Still, while using his nice peat based mix.


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## Milky Weed (Mar 3, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> No not only or explicitly for Mars, but NASA helps to fund some of his work.
> 
> I used to think his system was pretty simple. Just use the formula for the media and the fertilizer. However now I see that the lime should be dosed according to the pH of the peat you are working with (mine is already 5.5-6 so I really shouldn't add lime. I think. Does that sound right? Bugbee used peat which was at pH 4 which is why he had to add lime to bring it to 5.5.)
> 
> ...


Im using the 20-10-20 with jacks finisher 7-15-37. in veg im 80%-85% 20-10-20. 20% jacks finish. Week 4 flower im about 50/50 mixing the nutes. I also use pro mix bx which is pretty much pure peat alittle perlite with lime built in and wetting agent. It comes buffered to 6.3-6.4 i believe.

I found when i relied strictly on the bloom nutes the plants always ended up hungry for nitrogen.


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## rootforme (Mar 6, 2022)

When growing in coco don't you want it to always stay moist and not dry out like soil? I'm trying to understand why not coco blends use perlite and no vermiculite when vermiculite will help keep the coco moist with less chance of dying out. You don't want pockets of coco dying out in the root zone.


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## Milky Weed (Mar 6, 2022)

rootforme said:


> When growing in coco don't you want it to always stay moist and not dry out like soil? I'm trying to understand why not coco blends use perlite and no vermiculite when vermiculite will help keep the coco moist with less chance of dying out. You don't want pockets of coco dying out in the root zone.


This thread is more about peat and bugbees tek than coco.


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## Vizzaro (Mar 7, 2022)

rootforme said:


> When growing in coco don't you want it to always stay moist and not dry out like soil? I'm trying to understand why not coco blends use perlite and no vermiculite when vermiculite will help keep the coco moist with less chance of dying out. You don't want pockets of coco dying out in the root zone.


Also I would assume just like Dr. Bugbee said "people have steered away from Vermiculite because it's expensive" and whenever I listen to or watch a person who grows in coco they never mentioned Vermiculite. I didn't even know Vermiculite was a thing till I heard Dr. Bugbee mention it. But that's just my theory.


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 7, 2022)

I have these plants running on just the 20-10-20 without micro nutrients. (Although recently I've only added a bit of kelp and epsom).

It seems they have been slower to grow compared with other cannabis-specific nutrients I've tried.

I am not sure why some leaves have such holes in them? and I'm having tip burn? I did flush to avoid salts buildup but perhaps the formulation is too strong, I am running about 600 PPM on the tds meter.

I think this experiment wont last very much longer because the 20-10-20 seems to me, to have no advantage over cannabis-specific nutrients. Meanwhile now Bugbee is planning to release his own cannabis-specific line. So what was this all about not using mucro nutrients? Weird!

Sometimes people with a Phd really over complicated things? I'm a bit confused still...


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 7, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> without micro nutrients


it's simply not possible to grow any plant without micros - as these are essential. Are u really sure your substrate/formulae contains 0 (for real, and not just not nameing these)



Overgrowtho said:


> I am not sure why some leaves have such holes in them? and I'm having tip burn? I did flush to avoid salts buildup but perhaps the formulation is too strong, I am running about 600 PPM on the tds meter.


discolored leaftip can also indicate a deficiency (mild Ca def eg) I don't think 600ppm is strong enough to warrant flushing. not at all.
salt buildup is countered by draining 20% of total irrigation and throwing it away


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## Doc50holliday (Mar 7, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> I have these plants running on just the 20-10-20 without micro nutrients. (Although recently I've only added a bit of kelp and epsom).
> 
> It seems they have been slower to grow compared with other cannabis-specific nutrients I've tried.
> 
> ...


those plants look like they have some deficiencies. Are you using either the proposed peat moss & vermiculite media? With dolomite lime and gypsum added? Or his updated one? If not, then that would make sense why you’re having deficiencies. The dolomite lime & gypsum provide some micro nutrients and PH balance to the media.


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## Milky Weed (Mar 7, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> I have these plants running on just the 20-10-20 without micro nutrients. (Although recently I've only added a bit of kelp and epsom).
> 
> It seems they have been slower to grow compared with other cannabis-specific nutrients I've tried.
> 
> ...


The 20-10-20 has micros in it, fertilizer levels are likely just not enough, or possibly its too heavy on nitrogen. I have to cut my 20-10-20 with about 20% jacks finisher in veg to help reduce it while keeping decent and balanced ratioes.

Thats what i do to counter the exess nitrogen. Now the 20-10-20 is missing calcium and light on magnesium, due to it being meant for hard water. I toss abit of powderised gypsum and epsom in my feed water to compensate for that.

I hope that helps, it took me awhile to balance my formula out and get the ratioes correct to where i can push the ferts abit and not get clawing. (1.5ec), 85f, 900umol, water feed ph 6.4, substrate ph 6 (Thats all mid flower numbers)


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 7, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> it's simply not possible to grow any plant without micros - as these are essential. Are u really sure your substrate/formulae contains 0 (for real, and not just not nameing these)





Doc50holliday said:


> Or his updated one?


I am using the update formula so indeed I do have some micros in the media (sorry I was not clear on that).


Milky Weed said:


> The 20-10-20 has micros in it,


I am not using Jacks but just a simple 20-10-20.


Overgrowtho said:


> (Although recently I've only added a bit of kelp and epsom).


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## Vizzaro (Mar 8, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> I am using the update formula so indeed I do have some micros in the media (sorry I was not clear on that).
> 
> I am not using Jacks but just a simple 20-10-20.


The Fertilizer that Dr. Bugbee recommended was the 20-10-20 "Peat Lite Special". I made this same mistake by buying the Jack's 20-10-20 "General Purpose". The Peat Lite Special has double the micronutrients than the General Purpose.


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 8, 2022)

Thanks, this answers a lot of questions @Vizzaro


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 8, 2022)

20-10-20 just refers to actual % N-P-K.

its specific % of ingredients and their derivative sources will always listed.

The reason manufactuerers do this is it relates to a 100ppm base ratio per gallom, which makes additing and diluting its mix.for various reasons on a bag ratio useful.


Ive said this before... bag salts are manufactured to create tank mix's.
If you are pulling out a measured portion its not complete. only the entire bag in a stock solutiom makes a mix with exact PPM to amend feed solutions.

A lot of Jacks users effing themselves about 50% the way through their bag...

I luagh a lot at this...


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 8, 2022)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> Ive said this before... bag salts are manufactured to create tank mix's.
> If you are pulling out a measured portion its not complete. only the entire bag in a stock solutiom makes a mix with exact PPM to amend feed solutions.
> A lot of Jacks users effing themselves about 50% the way through their bag...


I made this same mistake before when using another solid fertilizer's bag. It was not good!!!! The salts are not homogenous, I learned the hard way.


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 9, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> I made this same mistake before when using another solid fertilizer's bag. It was not good!!!! The salts are not homogenous, I learned the hard way.


Im sure its negligable for most, but i dont see many people useing these big bag ferts the way manufactuerers intend as they pull a portion out at a time


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## Kassiopeija (Mar 9, 2022)

Samwell Seed Well said:


> Im sure its negligable for most, but i dont see many people useing these big bag ferts the way manufactuerers intend as they pull a portion out at a time


they are cheaper.
would grinding the total content to fine powder & mixing that real well help to do away the imbalances?


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## PadawanWarrior (Mar 9, 2022)

My tips for growing on Mars. Don't Flush!


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 10, 2022)

What do you guys think about adding some neem cake to Dr. Bugbee's soiless media mixes? Good idea? To use for systemic preventative IPM. 

Would this keep away the buggies such as Thrips and help me to avoid spraying/infestations? What percent neem cake would you recommend?


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## crimsonecho (Mar 10, 2022)

i really havent read through all this stuff because its 19 pages come on! but if you want to stick with a 20-10-20 regimen adding anything organic will mess up the ratios. neem cake is high in nitrogen mostly. i do use it sometimes when i have it. good stuff but in organics.


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## Overgrowtho (Mar 10, 2022)

crimsonecho said:


> i really havent read through all this stuff because its 19 pages come on! but if you want to stick with a 20-10-20 regimen adding anything organic will mess up the ratios. neem cake is high in nitrogen mostly. i do use it sometimes when i have it. good stuff but in organics.


I'm focusing on a more cannabis specific nutrient instead of 20-10-20 because after all, Dr. Bugbee is also developing his own cannabis specific one.... As long as one is not overly pushing the PPM/EC, so why not? The organic material will break down to become more acidic of course, which is an important factor to consider.

But nevertheless I've heard and observed, that this idea that "organics and salts have to be mutually exclusive" -- simply isnt true. Many interesting nutrient lines do now offer both in a single set.

But of course, point well taken! That's partly why I ask what ratio might be cautious such as only a few percent of the media mix? @crimsonecho Would you however say that its even worthwile becaues its a great IPM benefit -- in that bugs are systemically deterred by using it in the media at a few percent?

...I see that Clamas Coot uses just one cup of neem meal per 7 gallons of media.... thats tiny, like 0.7% if I calculated correctly...


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## crimsonecho (Mar 10, 2022)

Overgrowtho said:


> I'm focusing on a more cannabis specific nutrient instead of 20-10-20 because after all, Dr. Bugbee is also developing his own cannabis specific one.... As long as one is not overly pushing the PPM/EC, so why not? The organic material will break down to become more acidic of course, which is an important factor to consider.
> 
> But nevertheless I've heard and observed, that this idea that "organics and salts have to be mutually exclusive" -- simply isnt true. Many interesting nutrient lines do now offer both in a single set.
> 
> ...


i don’t think you can’t use salt based stuff at all in organics, by that i mean the end product will not be organic but it’ll still grow and finish but what i mean is salt based stuff can’t really sustain a healthy microbiota not at the level we desire as organic growers. not enough diversity or density compared to an organic soil. and in organic soil its that density and diversity that keeps it in balance. for example if for some reason any pathogenic microbe starts to reproduce faster than normal, more than likely there will be a natural predator already in your soil and those microbes will also start to reproduce faster and feed on the pathogen until a balance between those two is achieved. however this may not be the case in salt based farming where your only organic input will be neem cake but i haven’t done it so i’m not sure.

as for ipm, azadirachtin is taken in by the roots and distributed in the plant tissue, when taken via the roots the highest concentration will be at the roots but plant will also translocate the azadirachtin into leaves, stems and flowers and as far as i know there is still quite a bit of azadirachtin left in neem cake after the extraction so its probable that it’ll have benefits towards your ipm regimen but again seeing this is organics it’ll take time for the neem cake to breakdown and it’ll take more time for the plant to accumulate azadirachtin in meaningful concentrations.

so it is possible with a little bit of time but i this is all just deductions based on some articles i read i haven’t got any test results on my plants neither have i ever battled any pests in my grow area and the most important ipm rules i implement is shoes off in the house and showering as soon as i come home coupled with no fresh air intake.
so i’d maybe just use around 2 cups for 7 gallon if going for the ipm route and top dress every 2-3 weeks.


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## Milky Weed (Mar 15, 2022)

New bugbee video on choosing supplemental lights for houseplants. May be good for newbies looking to purchase a light. Hes looking snazzy with a new haircut!


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## Samwell Seed Well (Mar 15, 2022)

Kassiopeija said:


> they are cheaper.
> would grinding the total content to fine powder & mixing that real well help to do away the imbalances?


Even worse as the compressed partcles actually help. As it becomes dust it absorbs atmospheric moisture and humidty from the enviroment and becomes less and less consistant in small amount. 

Its negligable untill the last bit which has the smallest partcile from being broken up and handled, those smaller partcles have even more surface area and are even more most reactive to a storage envirments... 

Same things happen to bottles nutrients when stored or used incorrectly. 

Dry nutrients are def a space saver


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