# Spin-Out for Chemical Root Pruning



## mogie (Mar 25, 2007)

originally written by Uncle Ben

I took an interest in using root pruning chemical products on a trial basis with _Cannabis_l. These products use a copper base and are sprayed or painted on the inside of the pot to achieve root-tip dieback inducing profuse secondary root branching. root pruning products have never been evaluated by the horticultural community, amateur or otherwise on _Cannabis_. 

I tried a product called Griffin's Spin-Out on various strains, aka copper hydroxide suspended in a carrier, painted on the inside of the pots to achieve root tip pruning. The commercial trade has been using copper compound paints for root pruning for many years, and thousands of professional studies have been conducted on the merits of chemical root pruning. 

The following photo shows one gallon pots that have been spray painted with two coats of Griffin's Spin-Out. My current plan is to sex in these pots at around 3 weeks (if growth is good), and then upcan to _untreated_ 3 gallon pots to finish. 









*Seedlings One Week Old* 

Just took this pic of my seedlings that emerged from the soil and are anywhere from 3 to 8 days old. The plants used for evaluation consist of (5) TFD Thai-tanic, and my crosses: (4) C99 X H, (4) Peak19 X H, and (4) C99 X Peak19. 17 seeds sowed, all germinated. They are under a 400W MH, Super Sun hood. 

The larger plant in the foreground is unknown (in an untreated pot) that is about 2 weeks old, topped two days ago which if female will have 4 main colas. A few seeds became strays on the sorting table, if I had to guess, it's a C99 X Peak19 based on its leaf/node structure. I started it early to test my new soil blend's merits, as well as to test for damp-off as I only used solarization to sterilize my soil mix, not heat, as I normally do. 









*Week Two* 

What a difference a week makes? Two weeks after the faves popped the soil's surface, thought I'd take a pic. The largest (and first germed) faves have spreads of up to 13.25"/34cm... with the smallest fave (and last one to germ) about 5"/13cm across. The smallest is in the foreground holding the Chills hemp papers and the larger ones to the left. 








*Week Three* 

It's about time to go 12/12, especially with the C99 X Haze as this cross has long internodes and will surely end up like trees. They are turning out very sativa dominant. 

Thai-tanic, C99 X Peak19 and P19 X Haze are very well behaved, having beautiful profiles. The plant in the left foreground (Haze X Peak19) is now 20" (51cm) across, the late germing kid (Haze X C99), sitting on a high chair in the foreground, is 8" (20cm) across. 

Plants are very healthy requiring watering twice a day with the exception of the smallest plants. Side panels have had to be expanded 3 times since the last shot as the garden is expanding rapidly. 

All plants are doing extremely well in the Spin-Out treated pots. In fact, the only plant that is pouting is the one in the untreated pot. 

Photo is a little dark...a wine bottle is in the foreground for reference. 









*Week Four* 

Week four, 12/12 started 4 days ago. The growth continues at an excellent rate. Maintenance is quite high due to the small pots and warm weather which is causing temps to peak and hold at a high of 94F in spite of my efforts to keep it down. 

Garden is now 20 s.f. where it started at 9 s.f. in week one. Plants are _crammed_ into the space of 20 s.f. 









Of 18 plants started, nine are female (which is gonna be a space problem for me), six are male and three? The attached photo shows a representative profile for six males that were destroyed. The two on the left are TFD Haze X Peak19, the one on the right being C99 X Peak19. Tallest plant is 27" (66cm) tall not counting the height of the rootball. Yardstick is in the middle for reference. 

Notice the middle rootball with a few exposed roots? I'll explain later with another photo. 









*Closeup of Rootball* 

As you saw in the previous photo, roots are not spinning out. 

The following pic is a closeup of the middle plant's rootball. With the tip of my finger, I knocked off about a cm of soil (in depth) in a small area located in the middle of the rootball so you can see what's lies behind the rootball's outside perimeter. Keep in mind these rootballs are quite small - 6"/15cm in diameter and 6" tall. 









*Fibrous Rootball Closeup* 

Here's a closeup of a rootball showing an extremely fibrous rootmass after I shook off as much soil as possible. The mass is very dense with no spin-out indicated at all. Fibrous mass stretched about a foot long when held up. Large white root in the middle looks like the original taproot. 

They will be upcanned to untreated three gallon pots tomorrow. 








*Profile of a Male that was Destroyed* 

Here is another male (O.Haze X Peak19) found this morn that will soon be destroyed. It is 31" tall (with pot height)...shot was taken overhead. It has a strong indica influence from the Peak19. In fact, it looks almost identical to the regular Peak19 I grew last year. Has very dark, wide leaves and leafsets, especially at the lower levels. 









*Rootball of a Male in an Untreated Pot* 

Destroyed another male, the only one in an untreated pot. Pot-bound condition with typical rootball spin-out is noted. 









*Week Six* 

Plants love the Griffin Spin-out treatment. Am having to water the three gallon pots everyday now and having to top some plants due to the vigor and heavy Haze influence. This garden is sativa dominant with the exception of a few faves, which are taking on a typical indica/sativa hybrid profile - the C99 X Peak19. Topping during this late stage of the game is not my preferred method of plant height control and I don't recommended it to most folks, Some plants are already 46" tall while approaching only the third week of 12/12 this Sunday.








*Popcorn Anyone?* 

Three weeks at 12/12 and the plants are just now responding with a strong flowering response. Getting nice little balls of popcorn on dem dar faves! Here's a partial garden shot with a C99 X Peak19 in the middle. This is turning out to be a great cross regarding profile, vigor, and flowering. Thai-tanic is also very nice but being practically a pure sativa, is a PITA regarding its long internodes and long petioles.









*Four Weeks Flowering* 

This is a shot of _some_ of the garden at four weeks flowering. This is a very sativa-dominant garden so I'm wrestling with stretching and doing alot of topping. There are two Thai-tanics barely visible on the left with Haze crosses showing as the leggy, fluffy buds plants worked around the perimeter. The only plants that I think will give me thick, heavy colas are my C99 X Peak19 crosses. Their parents produced heavy colas and are already showing heavy trichome formation. Thai-tanic being as pure of a sativa as you can get with a tad of indica thrown in from the Skunk #1, has a great profile, but man is it leggy. Buds are quite dense for a sativa. 








*C99 X Peak19 - Six Weeks Flowering* 

C99XP19 cross. Excellent profile, should be ready in another two weeks. This fave is six weeks old. There's some leaf curl due to excessive heat about two weeks ago... oh well. 







*The Experiment was a Success!* 

Just an update with a pic of my first harvested plant from the experiment to show her health, yield and all. This is a C99 X Peak19 harvested just shy of eight weeks flowering.







originally posted by Uncle Ben


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## winters1 (Jan 13, 2008)

this is excellent, i'm gonna try that copper hydroxide spin-out too.


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## psyclone (Jan 13, 2008)

Any links for suppliers? Nice grow BTW, lovely well conditioned plants.


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## winters1 (Jan 13, 2008)

an hour of googling = no suppliers 

Welcome to SePRO!


and i wonder if that copper would absorb into the buds and cause toxicity?


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## psyclone (Jan 13, 2008)

Kills Them on contact? so no uptake?


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## Lord Dangly Bits (Jan 13, 2008)

Holy-Shit MOGIE!!! Those are some beautiful looking plants and Buds. 

I need to start being more careful in my grows. I never keep my plants looking healthy like that once they hit flowering stage. Something I need to work on.

Thanks for showing us you fantastic crop..

LDB


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## psyclone (Jan 21, 2008)

In the bottom of my Aqua valve pots is what they call a "root control matrix" to prevent root growth into the valve- this is coppered, and I wondered how it worked.
Thanks for the information, and pictures of those magnificent plants.


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## winters1 (Jan 21, 2008)

I emailed the company that makes it and they told me:

"Spinout is registered for use on non fruit bearing trees. Please read and follow label directions when applying Cutless"


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## psyclone (Jan 22, 2008)

Ah. Riiigght.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 4, 2008)

That's my thread and that's my garden! Is there any honor or honesty left in the cannabiz? (Sheesh, was there ever? ) Shame on you for stripping the originator's name and posing my garden, genetics, and experiment as your own! 

Here's the original FAQ I wrote when I was at OG, installed by an admin by the name of Shipperke.

Grow Marijuana FAQ, Cannabis cultivation - marijuana growing tips & photos

And it happens to be in my sig link at PG, plus a little warning for you guys that think you can get away with plagarizing other's work and not giving credit when credit is due. See post #160.

https://www.planetganja.com/highsociety/showthread.php?t=68903&page=8

I don't know who you are mogie, I now know what you are, and I also know you owe me an apology.

Uncle Ben


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## potroast (Jan 12, 2009)

Thanks for letting us know! Mogie was the cut and paste queen, she was just trying to help get this site started. I would say that much of the stuff she copied might have had the author already stripped off by someone else, as good info always gets passed around the net. I've put your handle on it as the original author.

Thanks for playing!


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 12, 2009)

Well, I'm a little gunshy these days as it happens quite often, a few others I can think of like 420UK and this one for example: http://forum.grasscity.com/general-indoor-growing/215941-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering.html

I guess Mogie was just trying to help out, but when OG went down alot of weird stuff started going down. 

Regards,
UB


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## livesoul (Feb 10, 2009)

So is spinout usable in a hydro ebb&flow system? I have black 6x6x7 inch pots with hydroton. Would love to be able to use something like this, my roots are ALWAYS packed densely against the wall. thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 10, 2009)

Nope. Soil only.


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## relativeood (Mar 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's my thread and that's my garden! Is there any honor or honesty left in the cannabiz? (Sheesh, was there ever? ) Shame on you for stripping the originator's name and posing my garden, genetics, and experiment as your own!
> 
> Here's the original FAQ I wrote when I was at OG, installed by an admin by the name of Shipperke.
> 
> ...


Why does the internet have to behold such a large percent of the worlds retarded plagiarists. 

I wish I could apologize FOR him.

That is even worse then the way "1984 grower" steals everyone's shit.


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## sgc8504 (Mar 23, 2009)

so I have been looking for SpinOut but I can't find it does anybody know were to get it


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## smokeOntheH2O (Apr 2, 2009)

have you ever gone an entire grow in the treated pots? would it effect the taste of the buds or smoke?


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 3, 2009)

Whatever happened to potroast?


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## jberry (Nov 29, 2009)

so i remember looking into this product years ago and getting all excited to try out some tests. I had seen it used in many nurseries for trees and shrubs, but when i contacted the company they advised not to use it on food crops, so i never tried it out...

UB, are you still using spin out???

did it increase root mass and yield?

and did it give you cancer of the ballsack or anywhere else??


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 29, 2009)

jberry said:


> UB, are you still using spin out???


Or course I am. Too old to quit now.



> did it increase root mass and yield?
> 
> and did it give you cancer of the ballsack or anywhere else??


I have to admit that since using it my yields increased at the expense of my sperm count. At my age, the hell with sperm....


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## Guest999 (Dec 6, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Or course I am. Too old to quit now.
> 
> I have to admit that since using it my yields increased at the expense of my sperm count. At my age, the hell with sperm....



I am actually a member on another forum and signed up to ask you this Uncle Ben... So you do use spinout during flower? I am thinking about trying some microkote pretreated pots and wanted to make sure it was safe to use during the flowering cycle.

thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> I am actually a member on another forum and signed up to ask you this Uncle Ben... So you do use spinout during flower? I am thinking about trying some microkote pretreated pots and wanted to make sure it was safe to use during the flowering cycle.
> 
> thanks


You can use a treated pot from start to finish. 

Welcome to RIU!


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## Guest999 (Dec 7, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> You can use a treated pot from start to finish.
> 
> Welcome to RIU!



Thanks! I've read through a bunch of post and i gotta say this forum is much more professional than the forum i am currently in. The growers here seem to be much more experienced. 

I will also be using your 4 cola method for the microkote grow.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> Thanks! I've read through a bunch of post and i gotta say this forum is much more professional than the forum i am currently in. The growers here seem to be much more experienced.
> 
> I will also be using your 4 cola method for the microkote grow.


I'd do a search here on Microkote. There was a grower using it.


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## Guest999 (Dec 7, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> I'd do a search here on Microkote. There was a grower using it.



I have. it seems to be about the same product as spinout, maybe an upgrade. I actually found the guy that developed spinout, he grows Camellias in georgia and now uses microkote, so i think it will be a good alternative. I beleive it is loch laurel nursery. 

Another question: i'll be growing 4 plants in a 4x4 tent. If i use the 4 cola method will the tent be large enough (2 indicas and 2 sativas)?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2009)

Guest999 said:


> I have. it seems to be about the same product as spinout, maybe an upgrade. I actually found the guy that developed spinout, he grows Camellias in georgia and now uses microkote, so i think it will be a good alternative. I beleive it is loch laurel nursery.
> 
> Another question: i'll be growing 4 plants in a 4x4 tent. If i use the 4 cola method will the tent be large enough (2 indicas and 2 sativas)?


Maybe, maybe not. Gardens are dynamic, they don't belong confined to tents or cabinets. Using a setup with moveable side reflecting panels is best to conform to the expanding and contracting garden footprint.

Good luck,
UB


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## infdjedi (Dec 8, 2009)

Interesting technique. However, I must put my 2cents in and take this idea back to earth. I have heard of sepro before. They make aquatic herbicides for aquatic invasive species management. They make all kinds of chemicals.. great company no doubt. One thing important to look at when using a chemical is the label. The label is the legal/health document each chemical is regulated by in every state. The label for this product states a few interesting things:
"SpinOut is a plant growth regulator for use on plastic or
cellulose nursery containers and treated sheets for use as
inserts in container-grown woody ornamental and herbaceous
plant species and non-bearing fruit and nut crops.

If I get that right, it says specifically TO USE ON NON-BEARING FRUIT AND NUT CROPS. 

Did you smoke that weed? 

Cannabis grows perfectly fine in regular pots with easy transplanting procedures. I am not a 100% organic grower.. but I would NEVER put those kinds of chemicals in plants I would use. Maybe for ornamentals/ferns or something.. but not for stuff going in me. 

That aside, great experiment and nice work.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2009)

infdjedi said:


> Interesting technique. However, I must put my 2cents in and take this idea back to earth. I have heard of sepro before. They make aquatic herbicides for aquatic invasive species management. They make all kinds of chemicals.. great company no doubt. One thing important to look at when using a chemical is the label. The label is the legal/health document each chemical is regulated by in every state. The label for this product states a few interesting things:
> "SpinOut is a plant growth regulator for use on plastic or
> cellulose nursery containers and treated sheets for use as
> inserts in container-grown woody ornamental and herbaceous
> ...


You're not putting anything "in plants". Get the facts on labeling, plant processes, etc. before you post such feelings. Being that I've explained the use of this product a million times in other forums, I will not bother to expound on it here, YOU do your own homework, not that you'll find the stuff anyway.

I'll say it one more time - copper ions are not translocated into the plant. If they were the plant would die of copper toxicity. 

UB


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## infdjedi (Dec 8, 2009)

I respect your shit uncle Ben so dont get me wrong but when a company says not to use it on fruiting plants that gets me wondering. Maybe there is a chemical reason not to use it on fruiting plants.. but the main difference I see applicable to this is that humans eat fruits, we rarely eat flowers.

From the sheet:
Active Ingredient
Copper Hydroxide&#8224; (CAS# 20427-59-2) ..............................7.1%
Other Ingredients...........................................................92.9%
TOTAL...........................................................................100.0%
&#8224;Metallic Copper Equivalent 4.6%.

So, 92.9% of what you put into your plants are other ingredients. Sure, most of that isnt biologically active but are they sure? Have they tested every cell in the human body? Especially after through the absorption process in the plant. The label also warns not to use near water because it is toxic to most aquatic microrganisms. Last time I checked.. humans are in the 90% water range. And yes I do mean "in plants". Sure, there are plenty of processes that break compounds down into parts the plant can use. But are you telling me that if I pour a cup of diesel fuel on a plant some of that diesel fuel does not end up inside the plant? When shit is made in a lab like that there are always unintended impacts. Maybe thats why it hints that it should not be used for human consumption ie: "fruit bearing trees".

Again, no disrespect meant Ben I just like to question new chemicals coming out. 






Uncle Ben said:


> You're not putting anything "in plants". Get the facts on labeling, plant processes, etc. before you post such feelings. Being that I've explained the use of this product a million times in other forums, I will not bother to expound on it here, YOU do your own homework, not that you'll find the stuff anyway.
> 
> I'll say it one more time - copper ions are not translocated into the plant. If they were the plant would die of copper toxicity.
> 
> UB


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## jberry (Dec 8, 2009)

if it works so well, and is soo safe to use, then why is it that nobody carries it and every expert ive every asked said it wasnt safe to use?

.... Ben, it seems like u could just use a "smart pot" and get the same results without the ball cancer.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2009)

jberry said:


> i.... Ben, it seems like u could just use a "smart pot" and get the same results without the ball cancer.


Then use it.


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## jberry (Dec 8, 2009)

haha good one !


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2009)

May your nuts prosper this holiday season, mine do.


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## jberry (Dec 8, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> May your nuts prosper this holiday season, mine do.


thanks ben, happy holiday harvesting.... and i was just pushin your buttons, i dont really think your getting ball cancer from your spin out... keep up all your research and hard work bud.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2009)

jberry said:


> thanks ben, happy holiday harvesting.... and i was just pushin your buttons, i dont really think your getting ball cancer from your spin out... keep up all your research and hard work bud.


Happy holidays to you and yours! May your family ornaments never outgrow your places to conceal them.


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## passerbye (Dec 18, 2009)

infdjedi said:


> I respect your shit uncle Ben so dont get me wrong but when a company says not to use it on fruiting plants that gets me wondering. Maybe there is a chemical reason not to use it on fruiting plants.. but the main difference I see applicable to this is that humans eat fruits, we rarely eat flowers.
> 
> From the sheet:
> Active Ingredient
> ...


Why is it disrespect if you disagree with him? Dude, what you wrote was dead on and factual. I agree, my health is very important. I grow as close to organic and dont take chances. Maybe it is safe, but when a label says dont use it on food bearing plants, uh hello!. If something isnt good for you to eat, smoking it is an even worse idea. 

Forums are about sharing knowledge and letting people decide for themselves. I wouldnt risk it If something says dont do it, well dont do it. For me, the potential gain in yield is not worth the pereceived risk. 

Truly it is an excellent point. What is the other 92.?% and has anyone stopped to think maybe it isnt safe? or at the best, it cant be good for you. 

100% Natural Pot. It is 100% good for you. Works for me. May you find what works for you.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 19, 2009)

passerbye said:


> Why is it disrespect if you disagree with him? Dude, what you wrote was dead on and factual.


In what regard, the content of the product, what it does, or the law regarding labeling plant products? If you don't know how the product works or understand the laws, then you have no room for comment one way or the other as your opinion is driven by emotion. This is not a spray or intended to be taken into the plant's tissues. It is a device whereby root tips are terminated leaving no other means for ion uptake. The roots are not in the proximity of the copper ions, if they were, the plant would die of copper toxicity. I'd say my plants look pretty damn healthy. 

Facts before feelings,
UB


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## passerbye (Dec 19, 2009)

A plant sprayed with Floromite looks pretty darn healthy. Smoking it is not. We are talking abotu long term effects, of which you are an idiot if you claim to know them. you dont. 

Wow. I now see Ben in a new light. Which proves a good point. Dont get enamoured with someone and believe everything they say without question. 

WTF is this "feeling" shit? People are bringing up a point, no one has tested this to see what is in it, if it gets absorbed and will it affect your health if absorbed. 

NOWHERE have you posted, "FDA or blah blah blah ceritifies this safe" "I had a bud sent to the lab and it is certified 100% ok" or I did a test where we blah blah blah therefore this shows it is not toxic. 

LMAO I dont blame u Ben, u grow good weed and I am sure you smoke a lot of it. But the opposite of facts is not "feelings" 

I dont have any feelings about it. You arent sure it is safe and you ARE ignoring warning labels that advise you not to use this on something for consumption. 

Now, all that being said, I agree THIS MIGHT BE JUST FINE, but I dont know that and neither do you. Thats all I am saying. It is about choice, the facts have been presented. If ppl want to use this and take any "risk" that might be present, cool. If not, thats cool too. You choose to believe it is safe and you use it. For your health and longevity, I hope you are right. 

Thats what makes America great.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 20, 2009)

passerbye said:


> Now, all that being said, I agree THIS MIGHT BE JUST FINE, but I dont know that and neither do you.


I don't care if you agree or not.

Do not hijack my thread with feelings or spin based on a personal agenda. I have done my research, always do before I venture off into anything. If you want to bring facts to the table, fine, but it is obvious you choose to ignore the facts, instead playing some wacked out nanny game. You have not addressed how the paint works so stop the incoherent bullshit.

I presented the facts so there is no need to troll this thread.

UB


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## SL2 (Dec 20, 2009)

Uncle Ben

I cant find the copper hydroxited paint so I was looking at the smart pots. Seem like it would do the same thing, What is your opinion?

Thanks for your help...


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## GidgetGrows (Dec 20, 2009)

I find this all interesting.... and my only 2 cents is... Maybe the precaution against fruit bearing plants isn't for the plants or for most people it's for that small percentage of people who are allergic to copper? Maybe...

But who cares, this thread seems to show that Uncle Ben has used this and does use this and it works for him, and it hasn't killed him, sounds good to me.

Thanks for Sharing Uncle Ben!!!!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 21, 2009)

GidgetGrows said:


> I find this all interesting.... and my only 2 cents is... Maybe the precaution against fruit bearing plants isn't for the plants or for most people it's for that small percentage of people who are allergic to copper? Maybe...


How can you be allergic to something that doesn't exist? Most who are ignorant of the use of copper hydroxide are dealing with theories and "personal views", feelings, and not the reality of this product. Again, the copper ions are not located near the plant's root tissue responsible for the uptake of water and salts.

Product labeling, now there is a real can of worms. You would have to understand the labeling requirement laws, the political pressure by the environmental wackos and their attorneys, the litigious nature of our society and much more to understand why some active ingredients, at the same %, are labeled for different applications and different prices. I have played the game with herbicides and insecticides - different label, same ingredient, lower cost. It is complicated process and certain producers are not willing to put themselves in harm's way regarding the incoherent Green movement's farce and their idealogically driven games. You may be like many assuming that copper ions are translocated into the plant as I sit here and try to explain otherwise, not that I'm obligated to give anyone an explanation. Many are quick to shoot off their mouth and too lazy to do the research. Nothing I say or do will convince folks otherwise nor do I care what others think as they will not be able to get the product, or they are too cheap to buy it. They just go on with their feelings and theories and have at 4 different cannabis forums where I have posted. Like stoners' affinity to snake oils, it's just the way the cannabis biz is. 




> But who cares, this thread seems to show that Uncle Ben has used this and does use this and it works for him, and it hasn't killed him, sounds good to me.
> 
> Thanks for Sharing Uncle Ben!!!!


You're welcome. I've been using it for years and my blood chemistry is still coming up clean. 

UB


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## Mr. Homegrown (Dec 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nothing I say or do will convince folks otherwise nor do I care what others think as they will not be able to get the product, or they are too cheap to buy it. UB


Hi UB, I'm no horticulturalist but I can see the point of using the spray. If the roots are burned off before they hit the spray, as your pics have indicated, they couldn't possibly absorb any.

My question is how do we get? Where from? And if the average consumer can't get it what would be your recommendations for alternates?

I have looked online for it and, at best, just found more testimonials of nurseries using it (funny, they all talk like they just found something new). Thanks, MH


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 30, 2009)

Mr. Homegrown said:


> Hi UB, I'm no horticulturalist but I can see the point of using the spray. If the roots are burned off before they hit the spray, as your pics have indicated, they couldn't possibly absorb any.
> 
> My question is how do we get? Where from? And if the average consumer can't get it what would be your recommendations for alternates?
> 
> I have looked online for it and, at best, just found more testimonials of nurseries using it (funny, they all talk like they just found something new). Thanks, MH


The root *tips* are burned, terminated when they hit the sides and bottom of the pot. The rest of the roots' epidermal tissue is no where near where the copper ions are located, reason why it can't be absorbed. You'll have to search for the product, and more than likely when you find it, it will very expensive as it's sold in bulk for commercial growers.

Found it, here's all the info and sources for it:

http://www.sepro.com/default.php?page=spinout

_"*How SpinOut Works:* As the root tips hit the container wall, they begin to grow around the inside of the pot, forming a circled and matted root system. Poor root architecture leads to poor plant quality. 

As its roots come into contact with SpinOut-treated container, they become inhibited, not damaged. Because elongation stops, that growth energy stimulates the development of secondary and lateral roots promoting a fibrous and healthy root system....... 

_......Research shows that SpinOut improves the plants ability to uptake nutrients. SpinOut plants develop a more fibrous root system, which is able to take up more nitrogen, phosphorous and potassium resulting in a healthier plant. With SpinOut, root pruning or trimming is not necessary. As a result, transplant shock is significantly reduced."


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## Mr. Homegrown (Dec 30, 2009)

Uncle Ben said:


> The root *tips* are burned, terminated when they hit the sides and bottom of the pot. The rest of the roots' epidermal tissue is no where near where the copper ions are located, reason why it can't be absorbed. You'll have to search for the product, and more than likely when you find it, it will very expensive as it's sold in bulk for commercial growers.
> 
> Here's all the info and sources for it:
> 
> http://www.sepro.com/default.php?page=spinout


Great thanks. So do you have to treat the pots every grow? Buying in bulk would make sense then.

So how do you think air pruning would compare?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 30, 2009)

Mr. Homegrown said:


> Great thanks. So do you have to treat the pots every grow? Buying in bulk would make sense then.
> 
> So how do you think air pruning would compare?


I spray about 3 light coats on the pots and they're good for a couple of uses.

Air pruning will work fine unless your ambient RH is high. Never seen roots growing out of drainholes at a nursery, hanging down 6" or so? It's all about the money, everyone is gonna push their product as "the best solution".


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## Grow4Daze (Jan 2, 2010)

From Wikipedia:

"Symptoms of copper poisoning are very similar to those produced by arsenic. Fatal cases are generally terminated by convulsions, palsy, and insensibility.[_citation needed_]. The DRI Tolerable Upper Intake Level for adults of dietary copper from all sources is 10 mg/day[_citation needed_]. In toxicity, copper can inhibit the enzyme dihydrophil hydratase, an enzyme involved in haemopoiesis and homeostasis."

From what I've read about UB, he sure seems pretty healthy to me. Any convulsions he suffers is more than likely from coughing his ass off on some really good bud.


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## Katatawnic (Jan 2, 2010)

Grow4Daze said:


> From what I've read about UB, he sure seems pretty healthy to me. Any convulsions he suffers is more than likely from coughing his ass off on some really good bud.


That's funny right there! 

On a serious note... depends, really... some of us don't cough and still get off.


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 3, 2010)

Got to admit, wife calls me insensitive all the time. "Honey, you just don't understand me!"


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## Katatawnic (Jan 4, 2010)

None of you understand us. You're merely male members of the human species.


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## seasmoke (Jan 5, 2010)

I can't get the email to work to contact them through that link. I can't find it in my neck of the woods.

I have severe spinout in all my 1 gallon pots and 5gl pots. The roots are all collecting on the edge of the soil, and the middle soil is hardly getting used at all...my 5gall rootball is as big as your 1 gall rootball, UB. Small for a 5 gl pot...
I've just started scoaring the roots when I up-pot to 5 gallon pots hoping it will help.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 5, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I can't get the email to work to contact them through that link. I can't find it in my neck of the woods.
> 
> I have severe spinout in all my 1 gallon pots and 5gl pots. The roots are all collecting on the edge of the soil, and the middle soil is hardly getting used at all...my 5gall rootball is as big as your 1 gall rootball, UB. Small for a 5 gl pot...
> I've just started scoaring the roots when I up-pot to 5 gallon pots hoping it will help.


Here you go:

http://horticulturespecialties.com/index.php?cPath=30

They even have growbags coated with it.


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## seasmoke (Jan 5, 2010)

Thanx Dave, + rep. Looks like they sell coated items. i'll see if they have the "paint", otherwise bags it is.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 6, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> Thanx Dave, + rep. Looks like they sell coated items. i'll see if they have the "paint", otherwise bags it is.


If you get the bags, let me know how well they do. Im trying out a brand of fabric bags atm, but too soon to tell if theyre worth it.


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## seasmoke (Jan 6, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> If you get the bags, let me know how well they do. Im trying out a brand of fabric bags atm, but too soon to tell if theyre worth it.


Sure will. I emailed the company about bags and paint. I am buying some...something...i'll give you the rundown. Same thing though, it'll be a while before I know anything. Hey man,thanks for all the help in all the forums. Youve helped more than hurt.


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## DaveCoulier (Jan 6, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> Sure will. I emailed the company about bags and paint. I am buying some...something...i'll give you the rundown. Same thing though, it'll be a while before I know anything. Hey man,thanks for all the help in all the forums. Youve helped more than hurt.


Well, I do try to help heh. Let me know what the costs are on the bags you get. Im interested in the 1 gallon and 3 gallon pricing if you buy them.


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## seasmoke (Jan 7, 2010)

they emailed back and have paint, which would work better for me...
The prices are:
30 one gallon treated pots for $36.49
25 three gallon pots for $46.25


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 7, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> they emailed back and have paint, which would work better for me...
> The prices are:
> 30 one gallon treated pots for $36.49
> 25 three gallon pots for $46.25


If you use the 1 gallon treated pots and do not leave yourself enough time from the time you upcan out of the treated into new soil before flowering, you will find that upcanning to a 3 or 5 gallon pot will be rather useless regarding new root exploration. My experience has been that once you pop that plant out of the 1 gallon treated pot, it takes a while for the roots to explore fresh soil found in the new pot. Keep in mind this stuff is designed for perennials, not annuals. In a nursery a perennial can be around for months and perhaps years before being sold. Perhaps if when upcanning you gently scrape off a bit of the outside rootball soil, it will help negate the effect of any copper ions that might still be around.

Just a heads up......


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## seasmoke (Jan 7, 2010)

> Just a heads up...


And a good one. I'll keep that in mind...I took down 3 Sativa Spirit plants and was VERY dissapointed with the root structure. They were smaller that what i'm getting out of one gal. pots....and that was after 9 weeks.

I've really got to get a handle on growing a great root structure. Not all are bad, but they all hit the pot walls and do not use much of the soil in between.


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## FYIcool2 (Jan 9, 2010)

Per the use of the MicroKote or SpinOut coated containers and its safety for the smoke. Its all Good. Back to my chemistry learnings. The copper that's doing the root prunning for these products will not move thru the plants and is bound in the first few cm of the root tips. I verified this in some research I found on the spinout product. Its All to do with solubility of the cu. Copper is an organic approved fungicide so I feel its safe for my sperm count.. The word chemical root prunning just seemed stronge so I had to check it out. I tried both products and the microKote plants had better color and vigor probably because of the micros. Both products grew plants and roots tons better than my untreated ones. I'm sold. I here going back to my babies and starting to develop a heavy root mass at that point even helps get to the finish line faster.. I will let you know... yea ha


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 10, 2010)

FYIcool2 said:


> Per the use of the MicroKote or SpinOut coated containers and its safety for the smoke. Its all Good. Back to my chemistry learnings. The copper that's doing the root prunning for these products will not move thru the plants and is bound in the first few cm of the root tips. I verified this in some research I found on the spinout product. Its All to do with solubility of the cu. Copper is an organic approved fungicide so I feel its safe for my sperm count.. The word chemical root prunning just seemed stronge so I had to check it out. I tried both products and the microKote plants had better color and vigor probably because of the micros. Both products grew plants and roots tons better than my untreated ones. I'm sold. I here going back to my babies and starting to develop a heavy root mass at that point even helps get to the finish line faster.. I will let you know... yea ha


Thanks for sharing and welcome to RIU!


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## seasmoke (Jan 15, 2010)

I talked to the company, and he was very informative. Good friendly service, and I think I got a decent deal. I can't wait to give it a try....


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 15, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I talked to the company, and he was very informative. Good friendly service, and I think I got a decent deal. I can't wait to give it a try....


Good. Did you buy the bags or the paint?


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## seasmoke (Jan 15, 2010)

I bought the paint Uncle Ben. I figure that I can coat whatever I want and be happy with it. $78.00 a gallon delivered.

So now, I will using the micro paint(spinout), superthrive for added boost and clones/seedlings when its time, Jacks classic 30-10-10 for veg, Jacks classic 10-30-20 for flower and add some 30-10-10 when needed.

UB, would you have a feeding schedule...a base guideline, to start from that you'd give up? Right now I do a fert, then water, then molassass, water, fert, water,moll, etc....


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 15, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I bought the paint Uncle Ben. I figure that I can coat whatever I want and be happy with it. $78.00 a gallon delivered.
> 
> So now, I will using the micro paint(spinout), superthrive for added boost and clones/seedlings when its time, Jacks classic 30-10-10 for veg, Jacks classic 10-30-20 for flower and add some 30-10-10 when needed.
> 
> UB, would you have a feeding schedule...a base guideline, to start from that you'd give up? Right now I do a fert, then water, then molassass, water, fert, water,moll, etc....


You got a good buy. 

I can't recommend a feeding schedule as it's all dependent on the other cultural factors, mainly your understanding of what makes a plant tick. I'm not sure what you're doing.

Your call.....


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## seasmoke (Jan 16, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> You got a good buy.
> 
> I can't recommend a feeding schedule as it's all dependent on the other cultural factors, mainly your understanding of what makes a plant tick. I'm not sure what you're doing.
> 
> Your call.....


Let the killing fields begin!!Lol.


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## seasmoke (Feb 27, 2010)

I am very impressed with this paint. I've pulled some 1 1/2 month old males and checked the roots and WOW what a difference! So much more soil has been used, and the plants are flying in growth.

Now this is what i'm talking about!!


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## potpimp (Feb 28, 2010)

Awesome thread and advice!! Unka Bennie you are my hero.  BTW, I'm going to order some MicroKote pots. Do you think the 1 gallon is best or should I go bigger?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2010)

seasmoke said:


> I am very impressed with this paint. I've pulled some 1 1/2 month old males and checked the roots and WOW what a difference! So much more soil has been used, and the plants are flying in growth.
> 
> Now this is what i'm talking about!!


Yep, it's all about efficiency. 



potpimp said:


> Awesome thread and advice!! Unka Bennie you are my hero.  BTW, I'm going to order some MicroKote pots. Do you think the 1 gallon is best or should I go bigger?


Depends on the application. I'd use the 1 gallon for germinating or finishing small plants.


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## potpimp (Mar 1, 2010)

Uncle Ben, I've got 11 seeds of Greenhouse Super Lemon Haze so, being sativa dominant, I think they will get pretty big. This is going to be an outdoor medi grow in Cali. I also have a *bunch* of mini-MTF auto's; I could paint the inside of a shot glass for those.  I stayed up til 2 am this morning reading about 4 of your threads. The only reason I stopped then was because my computer locked up. Thank you soooooo much.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Uncle Ben, I've got 11 seeds of Greenhouse Super Lemon Haze so, being sativa dominant, I think they will get pretty big. This is going to be an outdoor medi grow in Cali. I also have a *bunch* of mini-MTF auto's; I could paint the inside of a shot glass for those.  I stayed up til 2 am this morning reading about 4 of your threads. The only reason I stopped then was because my computer locked up. Thank you soooooo much.


Like I've said elsewhere in this thread, it seems to take a while for the plant to resume normal "spin-out" as the tips have been terminated and there's alot going on within the rootball as opposed to the perimeter. Are you gonna plant in native soil or pots outdoors?

When you germinate a seed, do so directly in 6" tall styrofoam cups and transplant as deep as possible for maximum vigor. That means pinching off the lower leaf sets if need be.

Good luck,
UB


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## potpimp (Mar 1, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> Are you gonna plant in native soil or pots outdoors?
> 
> When you germinate a seed, do so directly in 6" tall styrofoam cups and transplant as deep as possible for maximum vigor. That means pinching off the lower leaf sets if need be.
> 
> ...


Thanks UB. I am planning on having a greenhouse for this year or I might have to do a guerrilla grow if I can't swing that. So you're saying that when I transplant from the 6" stryo cup, to set it deeper, with the dirt coming up the stalk a few inches further? That's a gem that I must have misunderstood.


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 1, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Thanks UB. I am planning on having a greenhouse for this year or I might have to do a guerrilla grow if I can't swing that. So you're saying that when I transplant from the 6" stryo cup, to set it deeper, with the dirt coming up the stalk a few inches further? That's a gem that I must have misunderstood.


What ever part of the "trunk" is buried will produce roots. More roots=better plant health and vigor. You want to bury it up to the first leafsets.


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## tokincarper (Mar 9, 2010)

hey ub , thanks for all the info on here , makes for a great read and is very usefull and informative without all the bullshit that the "growing" world seems to be overflowing with. i normally grow from cutting's and put them straight into 11 litre pots and thats where they stay. 
i intend on using 18 litre pots next time round, can you give some advice on whether this is good practice or not ? 
if its not can you recommend a good size pot to start them off in, and what size pot you use as the final pot?? is it a bigger is better type thing ?? many thanks , tokincarper


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## potpimp (Mar 9, 2010)

I should have my 60 pots tomorrow. I had them shipped via Fed-Ex.


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## Grandpappy (Mar 31, 2010)

For those interested in trying the MicroKote pots, you can get lesser amounts from HorticultureSpecialties' other site, LawnAndGardenSpecialties.


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## potpimp (Apr 2, 2010)

I just upcanned my plants into the 1 gallon Microkote pots. The link is in my sig.


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## dr. greenthumbz (Apr 14, 2010)

Fuck gettin the pots go straight to sepro.com link earlier in the thread and get urself a two gal. Jug for 169 bucks. Then u can treat whatever containers u want. and u can take my word for it two gallons will go a long way.
Thanx for the original thread u posted this in UncleBen, i found it a while ago and been usin spinout with great results ever since.

Keep it green,
Thumbz


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2010)

dr. greenthumbz said:


> Fuck gettin the pots go straight to sepro.com link earlier in the thread and get urself a two gal. Jug for 169 bucks. Then u can treat whatever containers u want. and u can take my word for it two gallons will go a long way.
> Thanx for the original thread u posted this in UncleBen, i found it a while ago and been usin spinout with great results ever since.
> 
> Keep it green,
> Thumbz


Glad it's worked out for you. Yeah, 2 gallons will probably treat 1,000 pots. Would be nice to split the cost with 3 other guys. I'm sure it has a shelf life like other paints.


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## blunters (Apr 14, 2010)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's my thread and that's my garden! Is there any honor or honesty left in the cannabiz? (Sheesh, was there ever? ) Shame on you for stripping the originator's name and posing my garden, genetics, and experiment as your own!
> 
> Uncle Ben


This person gave you credit ... it is in the first 3 lines of their post ... people open your fucking eyes and read... it says "Originally written by Uncle Ben" ... Miss Molie did give you credit ... you were just too blind to see it.


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## DaveCoulier (Apr 14, 2010)

blunters said:


> This person gave you credit ... it is in the first 3 lines of their post ... people open your fucking eyes and read... it says "Originally written by Uncle Ben" ... Miss Molie did give you credit ... you were just too blind to see it.


It is you who is blind. If you had read all of the first page, especially a post by PotRoast, you would know that it was the Mod(PR) who edited the post to give credit to UB.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 14, 2010)

blunters said:


> This person gave you credit ... it is in the first 3 lines of their post ... people open your fucking eyes and read... it says "Originally written by Uncle Ben" ... Miss Molie did give you credit ... you were just too blind to see it.


Hey shit-fer-brains, get your facts straight before you shoot off your mouth. Like other cannabis forums that have stolen my work, stripped off my name and tried to take credit, she did not and would have not coughed it up. I raised hell in post #10 at which time Potroast posted the credit statement and responded in the next post, #11. Now who's blind? 

Here's another group of dipshits sucking up to their "pot god", nothing more than a common thief and poser: http://forum.grasscity.com/general-indoor-growing/215941-never-ending-abuse-phosphorous-enhance-flowering.html

I also caught him posing that one of my photos he lifted was his. There's more than that too. 

UB


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## Prot3us1` (Apr 14, 2010)

Lol when i read that you are blind and all the insults right at the bottom of the last page, its like a cliffhanger... while the new page was loading i was like:

"will i be the first to point out it was a mod who added the credits....am i the only one that thinks its ironic the dumbass told UB to open his eyes, when it says at the bottom of the original post in this thread "Reason for editing: Added original authors credits"?

Stay tuned and we will bring you the answers shortly...

 seriously though its like everything else on here...people dont use their brains...it SEEMS like a bad warning label so it MUST be horrendous. Its like when toys come in plastic bags, and the bag says "do not leave child unattended with bag, bag is not a toy, suffocation hazard" you don't avoid the toy for your child, just because the bag is dangerous....you just be careful to throw the bag away.

Also SpinOut is for "woody ornamental and herbaceous plant species and non-bearing fruit and nut crops." Herbaceous indeed. Think about the crap they spray on commercial tobacco, and they TELL people what it does to them and they are still fine with smoking cigarettes. I find it hard to believe this at it worst would be any worse than some of the stuff contained in there.

Its like putting copper down to stop snails in your garden right? The snails mucous reacts with the copper and the snail backs off...the plants roots react with the copper and stop growing in that direction. 

Heres my newest one for you all to think about:
When we inhale weed smoke our lungs absorb thc within SECONDS.
When making honey oil with butane, the thc is absorbed by the time the cans empty. (about 15 - 20 MINUTES if you do it REALLY slowly and carefully)
When making iso oil with alcohol, people say to let it sit for hours. 
When making cannabutter, the same deal...hours.

This is feeling over fact also. You "feel" like you are wasting weed so you REALLY soak it to get every bit...in fact you are just adding bitter tasting nitrogen, chlorophyll etc to your recipe. Its understandable...you throw away what looks like everything you put in, and to do that within 10 minutes of putting it in there feels downright WRONG...it is just a feeling though. thc doesnt need to be broken down to absorb into oils or alcohol as it is oil based. It would need to be broken down to absorb into water, in fact.

10 minutes is probably overkill but that gives the butter time to take some of the (hopefully) good taste of your bud too. 

Also adding a pound of weed to one stick of butter wont make really strong butter...(well it will but not pound of weed strong, only saturated stick of butter strong).

If you have 1tbsp of water, you cannot dissolve a pound of sugar into it. No matter how long you have. There is a point at which the butter is fully saturated with thc. At that point you are only DEGRADING the quality of your product the longer you leave it in there.

seems like root maintenance is fairly important!

prot


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## StlSoldier531 (May 6, 2010)

passerbye said:


> If something isnt good for you to eat, smoking it is an even worse idea.


How is smokig something worse than eating? Both go into your body. In fact I would rather smoke chemicals than eat them...smoking it...most gets exhaled back out anyway...eating it goes into your body and to your cells to use for energy and survival...you are such an IDIOT..lol..


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## StlSoldier531 (May 6, 2010)

Some of you almost sound like people from a few centuries ago..who thought the world was flat...take a chance..try something new. I think the Spin Out idea is wonderful.


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## Uncle Ben (May 7, 2010)

You just have to ignore some people. They don't know what they're talking about...... posting from an emotional reference not factual.

UB


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## Murfy (May 7, 2010)

my local guy was amazed i knew what this stuff was-
my grandma has been using it for 30+ years, so does he, and just happened to have a bunch


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## Uncle Ben (May 7, 2010)

It's nothing new, it's been around for decades in many forms, mostly copper hydroxide formulations.


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## Murfy (May 7, 2010)

copper hydroxide


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## lkymnky77 (Sep 4, 2010)

hey unk, would you recommend this spinout for a first grow???


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## Uncle Ben (Sep 5, 2010)

Why not assuming you're a veteran plant grower?


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## bobhamm (Sep 5, 2010)

I've been thinking about this and air-pruning(airpots/smartpots) and I see a perfect combination of the two by using the texas agroliner grow bags avail;able from the same source as the spinout). They are grow bags (nonwoven) that have the spinout on the outside so that invasive tree roots will not enter. They are water and air permeable with a layer of spinout llaminated to one side, so have the benefit of allowing more oxygen to the root system, so I was wondering if you turn them inside out(well, technically speaking they say to turn them inside out so the spinout faces outward so you would just use them as they come?) so the spinout faces in and support them with a frame made of the vinyl coated wire mesh/fencing you would have excellent root pruning and more oxygen. how does that sound? I did make a pot out of a small laundry basket liined with landscape fabric, to utilize the sir pruning and so far my iced grapefruit seems to really be doing well.


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 5, 2010)

Bob, I was reading the description of those Agroliner bags with spinout, and It says they can be used either way. They can be used to prevent invasive roots entering the rootball, or to keep the roots within the bag from growing into surrounding soil(if placed in ground). 

I think that I will purchase 10 of the 3 gallon bags, and give it a try with them. Ill compare how they do to regular 3 gallon fabric bags with clones. Ill update here in a few months and let you know how it goes.


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## bobhamm (Sep 6, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Bob, I was reading the description of those Agroliner bags with spinout, and It says they can be used either way. They can be used to prevent invasive roots entering the rootball, or to keep the roots within the bag from growing into surrounding soil(if placed in ground).
> 
> I think that I will purchase 10 of the 3 gallon bags, and give it a try with them. Ill compare how they do to regular 3 gallon fabric bags with clones. Ill update here in a few months and let you know how it goes.


cool, I saw the 5 gal ones were like < 3$ each if you buy 10, I would make a frame with a bottom for them if you have to move them around at all, that wouold be my main concern that (any) moving the bags to water them wold disturb the root system, def post how it goes, I really think the combo of more air to the root system plus the root pruning would be dynamite! Hobbes has a post here where he drilled large holes in 5 gal buckets and lined them with landscape fabric and he said the results were def better than plain homer buckets


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## bobhamm (Sep 6, 2010)

have you used regular grow bags? if so do you water in place or move them?


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## DaveCoulier (Sep 6, 2010)

Moving the bags wont disturb or damage the root system in any way. Ive pulled some really dense rootballs out of my fabric bags, and if I wanted to disturb them, I would have to beat it with a hammer.


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## bobhamm (Sep 6, 2010)

DaveCoulier said:


> Moving the bags wont disturb or damage the root system in any way. Ive pulled some really dense rootballs out of my fabric bags, and if I wanted to disturb them, I would have to beat it with a hammer.


really? good to know, that was my main concern with them, now the agroliner bags sound just about perfect, roo tip pruning with added oxygen to the roots and at 3$ as cheap as anything except maybe walmart shopping bags


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## lkymnky77 (Sep 6, 2010)

oh noooo...newbie all the way.... sorry it took so long to find my way back here... found riddleme and been reading reading reading, also been lurking around on your links and post.... got six seeds dark brown in color with a black eye or some with a zig zag black stripe in the center.... just showed lil tail on five.... did paper towel (about 4 folded in half and half etc) put on saucer watered and put in dark cabinet.. this was saturday fourth.. was inspired to start now,while still reading everything you two post, because i saw a beer pong cup grow challenge.... i figured start when they do and learn as my babies grow... so here i am 45 pgs into noob advice after completed calling all noob saw your spin out art and what you stated made sense to me... was very thrilled that someone with your knowledge answered..... just trying to grow my own tuhmaters thats all... if that makes sense to you... p.s have pics of cute lil tails ~;-}




trying to keep em green and keeping it simple


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## YarndiYarns (Oct 27, 2010)

StlSoldier531 said:


> How is smokig something worse than eating? Both go into your body. In fact I would rather smoke chemicals than eat them...smoking it...most gets exhaled back out anyway...eating it goes into your body and to your cells to use for energy and survival...you are such an IDIOT..lol..


As Uncle Ben would say.."Get your facts straight before you shoot your mouth off." _See Post #82 this thread._

Inhaling chemicals is a far more effective way of introducing them into the blood stream than through the digestive system because the gaseous exchange at the alveoli is so much more expeditious than through the Gastro Intestinal tract. Inhalation is second only to Intra-venous.
Once it enters the circulatory system (blood stream) it has access to all your organs/cells, and if the chemical composition is right it may cross the blood-brain barrier and have it's effect there also, _see Air/Oxygen/CO2 exchange._
But you are correct about one thing and that is that_ "most of it gets exhaled back out anyway",_ whereby we inhale 21% of oxygen that is in the air (21 %oxygen, 78% Nitorgen and 1% Other elements) we exhale 16-17% back out, which means that the body metabolises about 4% - 5%. This is why when we give mouth to mouth resusitation/rescue breathing , the recipient is receiving enough O2 to sustain life even though it is not optimal.

Don't go calling people names, it's not nice. try and remember this...KARMA dude.

One Love.

Big Ups to Uncle Ben. I've spent hours reading your's and Riddleme's contribution to this herb.


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## Earths Widdler (Jan 27, 2011)

this goes to the people who are worried about what goes into there body...Is it the unknown part that scares you? Because I bet your part of the same group of people who ingest beef and chickens stuffed with growth hormones?...Or how about simply drinking our flouridated water? the list is repeating...

UB seems to be fine. His plants seems even finer haha. I think its something i might have to dabble in


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 27, 2011)

Just takes a trip to the john to rid my bod of any wastes. Unless someone can give me a bonafide analysis of products they claim are "natural" or "green", I'll not buy into the green movement hype. With most or all green products, you don't really know what's in them as they are not regulated like "chemical" plant foods are. For all you know, that bag of worm castings contains high levels of heavy metals.

UG


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## jdizzle22 (Jan 28, 2011)

Why use chemicals when you could just get Air Pots or Smart Pots?


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## Uncle Ben (Jan 28, 2011)

jdizzle22 said:


> Why use chemicals when you could just get Air Pots or Smart Pots?


What is the most effective and cost the least?


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## jdizzle22 (Jan 29, 2011)

Uncle Ben said:


> What is the most effective and cost the least?


Chemicals can be messy and possibly harmful to even micro life in the growing medium, if anything you have to continue to buy them and apply over time

Where as with Air Pots you just rinse and reuse and it will grow plants better than with regular pots and chemical root killers


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## by the dashboard light (Feb 2, 2011)

Just FYI...if you live in a house that was built around 1950 or before 2007 chances are you drinking water that sits in and flows through copper pipe. As it does this copper is leaching into the water at various rates. If you have a dialetric problem in the system somewhere it is leaching at an even faster rate. 

Hope every one has a great day and oh BTW the next time your thirsty I hope you enjoy that tall glass of cold water, I know I will.


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## cassinfo (Apr 3, 2011)

I painted my living room with griffin's spin out. I havent left the room in 2 month. It work. Now i am unemployed.


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## Danielsgb (Apr 3, 2011)

I finally took the time to read this one fully. Great info as always UB
Daniels


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## cassinfo (Apr 3, 2011)

Uncle Ben's a grouchy butt. He's alway upset with somebody. He's gonna end up with high blood pressure. Ugggeeeeeee..


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## Danielsgb (Apr 3, 2011)

He deserves respect, and I see a bunch of people who spout off to him. Too many people argue without wisdom. He follows two of my grow journals, and helps when I ask. I also research any question and have plenty of gardening experience.
Daniels


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## cassinfo (Apr 3, 2011)

I give uncle ben alot of respect. He have alot of experience and also back up what he say's. I'm not questioning the man wisdom and experience. If i met uncle ben he would look up to me for one single reason." I'm 6 foot 7 oh yeahhhhhh!!!! " I just order 30 microkote 1 gallon pot's. I'm going to try the sea of green with some critical mass clones from Mr.nice ass. I'm gonna get mini donky dick colasssss!!!


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## Danielsgb (Apr 3, 2011)

Good Luck. Hope they stay green all the way through for ya.
Daniels


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## Cydraalv (Apr 26, 2011)

Copper and Lye are the main ingredients. I have copper pipes in my house. Used to run a copper still which is heated for extended periods of time and make soap with lye. My balls are still attached to my body and I have no illnesses from soap or liquor... Therefore I assume that it is 99% safe. Plus its non water soluble so it can't leech into the water! And once the paint is cured it can't flake or anything like that (not that it would matter if it did). Lookin beautiful! +rep 
Also pic #13 is amazing


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## tafbang (May 18, 2011)

jdizzle22 said:


> Chemicals can be messy and possibly harmful to even micro life in the growing medium, if anything you have to continue to buy them and apply over time
> 
> Where as with Air Pots you just rinse and reuse and it will grow plants better than with regular pots and chemical root killers


holy retard....


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## jdizzle22 (May 18, 2011)

tafbang said:


> holy retard....


Sorry it was wrong of me to assume it would work better as I don't actually know that. My bad


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## tafbang (May 18, 2011)

the plants don't eat the damn copper walls, it's a god damn force shield to prevent them from getting bound and getting them to produce some good secondary growth to eat their nutrients and water like champs


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## Tyler D. (Jun 4, 2011)

Big ups to UB! I would like to say I have been reading many of your post and although I haven't read that many I can already tell improvement from the knowledge you given. Thank you. 

I know this thread is kind of old but this may help anyone who comes across it further... 

If anyone is still worried even after FYIcool2's post I can assure you would die from lung cancer far before any adverse effects from the paint. A 100lb person could smoke 5 pounds of weed grown in these containers every day for 100 years (easier math) and still would have well below any harmful exposure amounts even if calculated with the most generous absorbance by the plant. 
The main reason why the copper pesticides/fungicide are dangerous is because it can be directly absorbed through the skin. Secondly the ___-acides are in much higher concentration relative to the concentration in the paint, and they only have low sperm count from this high exposure. Lastly, and as stated previously the copper is suspended or &quot;locked&quot; in the paint and is not absorbed by the plant and even if it did manage to scoop out a tiny bit, it still would do nothing, refer to first points math. 

I would also like to point out you can make your own for only slightly less than they charge. I found the recipe, which is 100g Cu(OH)2 per 1 liter of latex paint. There are articles of the effects of of spinoff on the plants in which they disclose this. I've found several laboratory suppliers that sell this but the lowest i've found was 500g of pure (94%) Cu(OH)2 for about $75, or 100g for about $50. 

I do have one question for UB or anyone else who has been using this. I don't think there would be but, have you noticed any thinning or need to reapply after time? thx.


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## C.Indica (Jun 4, 2011)

To those concerned about health facts;
The product which kills the root tips is the paint.
If the chemical from the paint meets roots, it burns them.
So if the chemical were to be INSIDE OF THE PLANT, it would FIRST have to CONTACT the ROOTS, which would BURN THEM.

Which would CANCEL ANY ABSORBTION OF NUTRIENTS FROM THAT ROOT.

There is no possible way for the copper to get in the plant, without killing the roots. The Roots are the only way for it to get to the plant that we smoke, so there's no way for the copper to reach the flowers & fruit.

Any other ingredients are a free-for-all without proper inspection,
but look at the way the plant recieves it's food.

Physically impossible for dead roots to transfer the copper...


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## HeadGrow (Jul 19, 2011)

This thread it awesome. I now feel better knowing people have used it without consequence. I was pretty sure it was safe based on how it works but it's always good to see other peoples experiences. 

Thanks Uncle Ben for the post. (even though it wasn't originally posted by you, some people. hah)

Now i'm just not sure if I should go with SpinOut or MicroKote.


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## Cydraalv (Jul 22, 2011)

im going to make my own but am not sure the ratio of copper hydroxide to paint. since copper hydroxide is made from lye and copper sulfate its pretty damn cheap to make and latex paint is cheap so im thinkin ill just go though 5 gallons mixing pints with different ratios


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## dizzlekush (Aug 28, 2011)

well a while back i bought 50 of the Tex-R Agroliner 5 gallon Spin Out treated bags. wish they had smaller sizes but 5 gal was the smallest size.

http://www.wrdist.com/root_control_product.aspx 

bought 50 bags for $128 shipping & handling included. thats $2.56 a bag. im about 2 weeks into bloom. due to some type of mosaic virus coupled with fungus gnats and a heat wave, i had to postpone the transition into bloom about 4 weeks so they were transfered from 1 gallon to the 5 gallon treated bags approx 6 weeks ago, so the roots will have approx 3 months in the bags. not exactly testing the limits here, but o well.


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## RobertInAz (Oct 29, 2011)

Hi Uncle Ben,
I have read this whole thread and it seems you have stirred up a hornet's nest. I, however, agree with you and your reasoning, and I would like to try this copper paint. However, I am into aeroponics and use a double tote system: the plants are set into the lid of the top tote and their roots hang down inside, where there are sprayed every few minutes w/ rez water. This water then drains down into the lower tote which holds the pump and the rez. It is not uncommon for the roots to grow all the way down into the lower tote, and I have to trim them every now and then so that they don't clog up the pump. I'm thinking that I could paint the pumps with the copper paint so that the roots would stay away from it -- what do you think?
Thanks,
Bob in Arizona


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## mr.sessemia (Jan 9, 2012)

Fuckin right uncle ben........he's a fuckin swagger jacker


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## rmc31 (Feb 16, 2012)

hey does anyone know where to buy this in the England or Ireland?


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## 420greendream (Mar 27, 2012)

where can i get some here in the US??????


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## aapmpmo (Mar 28, 2012)

This Spin out shit is *not* approved for edible plants so I'd say you'de have to be retarded to use it on smokable ones. Considering the poisions the goverment lets us use, I can only image how harmful the ones they do not let us use are.


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## superoz (Apr 17, 2012)

Hi There great info !! Anyone know where in Oz where we can score this spin out stuff ?? Cheers superoz


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## 420greendream (Apr 26, 2012)

your test would be have been alot better if you used clones not seeds, so you have a control group not some seeds that grow better then others.


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## Uncle Ben (May 10, 2012)

420greendream said:


> your test would be have been alot better if you used clones not seeds, so you have a control group not some seeds that grow better then others.


Your mind would be a lot better if you could focus. The experiment is not about clones or seeds. It was about the effect on root systems. Plant material is immaterial.


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## sgt john (May 10, 2012)

This is good info, thanks uncle ben for sharing it with everyone. I find it really interesting..


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## Uncle Ben (May 10, 2012)

sgt john said:


> This is good info, thanks uncle ben for sharing it with everyone. I find it really interesting..


Any time you prune root tips, you will increase production. Over at my new home, Riddleme, there are a few guys using Rootmaker air pruning pots, that includes me.


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## Faldikar (May 10, 2012)

Glad i ran into this thread. Thank you for all the awesome info Uncle Ben. 
I got a few really colorful reactions when I called into the local hydro and nursery stores to see if they carried anything like it.
I guess its time to make an order online


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## mrwzrd (Jul 2, 2012)

oh no.....another one.....


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## Bullethead21 (Jul 10, 2012)

Funny how Uncle Ben objected to the use of Bushmaster and called it "snake oil" containing PGR's and that it didnt work. But it is TOTALLY ok to suggest the use of this VERY toxic containing product that CLEARLY states on the label it is not for use on food and fruit crops????????

Does it say that anywhere on the Bushmaster label there mr pro???

Oh wait I forgot, the people that make Bushmaster lie and do not pay attention to label regulations.......what a joke and fool this guy is!!!

Wow, I think someone is REALLY confused.


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## Bullethead21 (Jul 10, 2012)

This thread should be deleted!! This stuff is CLEARLY not to be used on food crops and any fruit or kind of crop that will be consumed by HUMANS!!! 

It takes a really special kind of moron to put together threads like this suggesting the use of this VERY toxic product that is NOT to meant to be used this way!! I guess he does care about making himself sick and thats ok, but to suggest its use to others who are already sick???? What a guy!!

What is even MORE sad is the moderators of this site do NOTHING about it!!!!

Use common sense people, if the label says do not use on food crops or fruit, then DO NOT!! Do not listen to some IDIOT!!! Someone who is obviously VERY PROUD of their ignorance!!


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## snowdog203 (Oct 1, 2012)

How does the smart pot compare to spin out?


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 1, 2012)

About the same effect. Depends on certain conditions though. I use Griffin's treated pots and RootMaker pots.


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## dray86man (Oct 2, 2012)

Bullethead21 said:


> Funny how Uncle Ben objected to the use of Bushmaster and called it "snake oil" containing PGR's and that it didnt work. But it is TOTALLY ok to suggest the use of this VERY toxic containing product that CLEARLY states on the label it is not for use on food and fruit crops????????


Jorge Cerevantes recommends the use of copper hydroxide root pruning substances for lining the inside of soilless containers; 20006 edition, Chapter 3, page 59.


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## dray86man (Oct 2, 2012)

Bullethead21 said:


> This thread should be deleted!! This stuff is CLEARLY not to be used on food crops and any fruit or kind of crop that will be consumed by HUMANS!!!
> 
> It takes a really special kind of moron to put together threads like this suggesting the use of this VERY toxic product that is NOT to meant to be used this way!!


Ad hominem attacks won't motivate folks to reply w/ helpful information.


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## Zrod87 (Oct 3, 2012)

UB Knows his shit! I have never used any chemical root pruning techniques, but trust his knowledge and experience. 

I grew up on a grain and potato farm and have lived in rural farming communities for the better part of my life and have seen more than enough serious Chemical safety infractions to put half the county in cuffs for reckless endangerment... But it's the status quo, the people who grow the food for the better part of the worlds populations aren't as concerned with the "Safety" of the final food product as they are with VISUAL quality and things such as protein content. 

To fully explain ALL of the circumstances regarding the labeling of chemicals for use on food crops is truly a nearly impossible thing IMHO. Companies produce chemicals that produce the results the farmers want, not the other way around, this plus the huge disconnect between the two creates a confusing and possibly very dangerous atmosphere surrounding the entire industry. 

Ex. An average sized family Farmer Bob Lobla wants a better way to stop his newest glyphosate resistant Bull Thisle strain from overtaking his prized soybeans(which after he harvests will be delivered directly into a facility containing MILLIONS of lbs of the source of everybody's favorite veggie burger...) gets the newest broadleaf burn down product on the market and applies generously across everything on the field, including the developing bean pods.

I like to think that these chemicals are 100% safe, but one look at the label of these products that have been recommended to unknowing growers would have even a completely illiterate person asking safety questions. The company wants to sell it, and I doubt that with the frequency of new products on the market that all of these products have been properly tested over a period long enough to be entirely sure that there is no long term effects because of human consumption.

Many growers intentionally use a product that isn't labeled for their crops and even mix chemicals because it still produces the positive effect, without the farmer having the slightest clue as to what kind of chemical processes are taking place inside the plants. Bob is happy because his soybeans might take first at the fair this year, and chemcom is happy with their money pile, and as long as nobody can trace the cause of their illness all the way back to Bobs blue ribbon beans the cycle continues.

My point? Unless you grow everything you consume organically yourself, you can't be sure just what kind of terrible things you may be bringing in to your body. 

If you clowns are worried about something this low risk you should probably avoid anything on the shelves of most grocerie stores... Maybe do some research on commonly used agricultural chemicals to help widen your perspective, even a visit to a local ag extension office and ask for information. I think alot of people would be quite concerned to see what actually goes on in the production of their food sources. 

Its like someone spitting on your double cheeseburger, only the spit is a stew of variouse chemicals and compounds in trace amounts, for your enjoyment...


much respect UB.. Haters gonna hate I guess


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 4, 2012)

Excellent solid post Zrod87. I grow most of my own produce so I know what's in it. 

The reason why copper hydroxide paints are not harmful to the plant (and therefore people) is that the copper ions do not translocate into the plant. I believe I pointed that out, guess it fell on deaf ears. Don't give a shit what the label says for this particular product because I do not know why it is recommended for non-consumable crops only. I have used copper treated pots for tomatoes, citrus, etc. and am as healthy as a horse. As you pointed out, the ag label industry is a strange one wraught with legalese, mandates, and politics. At least we don't live in Mexico where anything goes. 

What really scares me is the organic industry. Now there is a racket. Like cannabis specific products it is largely unregulated and over priced "because they can" take advantage of The Cult of Au Naturel. No one really knows what's in that Super Duper Organic Natural Soil. Some tests by U. of Wash. have revealed high amounts of arsenic or barium, or selenium in some "organic" products.

I use the john to get rid of my wastes and have a complete body chemistry profile analysis about once a year. That is the only way you know if all your bodily functions are healthy is whether or not the 50 or so tests fall within the 'norm'. 

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Oct 4, 2012)

dray86man said:


> Jorge Cerevantes recommends the use of copper hydroxide root pruning substances for lining the inside of soilless containers; 20006 edition, Chapter 3, page 59.


It's on page 67 and 68.


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## Zrod87 (Oct 4, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Excellent solid post Zrod87. I grow most of my own produce so I know what's in it.
> 
> The reason why copper hydroxide paints are not harmful to the plant (and therefore people) is that the copper ions do not translocate into the plant. I believe I pointed that out, guess it fell on deaf ears. Don't give a shit what the label says for this particular product because I do not know why it is recommended for non-consumable crops only. I have used copper treated pots for tomatoes, citrus, etc. and am as healthy as a horse. As you pointed out, the ag label industry is a strange one wraught with legalese, mandates, and politics. At least we don't live in Mexico where anything goes.
> 
> ...


Thanks UB, I also grow as much of my own produce as possible. It really amazes me to see how huch people spend on something that grows from the ground, when with a little preparation could have more than enough for themselves and others.

As far as labeling and usage goes, maybe it's not Mexico but its still pretty Wild West at least around these parts... An almost nonexistent presence of regulation enforcement along with a cavalier attitude sported by most applicators can have extremely large impact on the environment in more ways than most would think. Things like fellers emptying leftover chems into a nearby drainage system, saying that they don't see the difference since they let you spray it on crops.... 

A majority of the organic food growers in my area typically have WAY more infractions than regular growers, and this is with twice the loopholes and very lax rules around what can be considered an " organic" practice. These people are considered by most prominent community members and growers to be nothing more than wolves in sheeps clothing, not concerned with growing you the healthiest produce but how much extra $ they will make since they signed a contract withan organic buyer with a pretty slogan on the bag.


I still buy stuff at the store! Don't want to make it all sound like poison, we do our best to provide quality and safety to the people who get the final product we grow. If it wasn't for techniques like the one in this thread there wouldn't be all that food on the shelves.. 

Peace


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## RandyHighwood (Oct 8, 2012)

What a great discussion! And haters are going to hate. After reading this long thread i'm happy that i just placed an order for microkote over the weekend! Ive read a lot of UB's informative posts and im going to trust and respect his knowledge. I'm still a greenhorn. After speaking with Jay (from Microkote), he further stated that the Cu does not translocate,and that the other micro nutrients suspended in the coating would be available if the plant needs it. So from what i got from the conversation was the plant Mines out the copper, but the Calcium, Magnesium, Manganese, Iron and Zinc are also available when the root hair hits the container wall, before it has "mined" the copper. Thanks for the info Ben. Keep it real!

microkote.com
(734) 878-1814


This is what i received in an email...

*How does the plant get the copper?*
The Copper in Microkote is absorbed by the plant roots and held by the root tip. The plant actually "mines" the copper out of the coating. Because the copper is mined the longevity of the coating is determined by the root density adjacent to the container wall. When the plant root tip make contact with Microkote the root tip dissolves a tiny amount of the coating & copper. The copper is absorbed, root elongation stops, apical dominance is broken and lateral root growth is initiated.

*What happens to the copper in the root? *
The copper is held or sequestered just behind the root tip. At this point the copper is not biologically active because the plant has sealed it off.

*Does the copper kill the root tip?*
In most woody plants, the root tips are not killed but in a stage of inactive growth. In herbaceous species the tips can be killed but this does not harm the plant because lateral rooting is stimulated. 

*Does the copper leach out of the container when it is treated with Microkote?*
Leaching studies have shown that the copper does not leach from the coating. Water collected out of Microkote Treated containers has the same copper concentrations as the water put into the container. 

*What happens to the roots when the plant is removed from the container?*
Root regeneration from inhibited root tips occurs within 3 - 6 days after the plant has been transplanted into a larger container or landscape plot. 

*Are the any precautions when handling treated containers?
*Treated containers can be handled with bare hands. The dried coating is not any more hazardous then household paint. 

*How can treated containers be disposed of?
*A treated container can be thrown away in any household trash because it is not considered a hazardous waste. Treated containers can also be recycled. 

*Will Microkote extend the growing time in a container?
*Plants in Microkote treated containers can be left in a pot longer before up-canning. The transplanting time period can be extended 1-2 months without decreasing plant quality. Plants still require up-canning at the proper time to ensure full growth and size.


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## dray86man (Oct 13, 2012)

Here's a supplier I just received a delivery from.

The product is Microkote; same thing as Spin Out. Copper hydroxide w/ other micronutrients.

www.HorticulturalSpecialties.com

Best to call and order from Jay Adcock, owner. Website orders are charged over 20 bucks for shipping. Got mine shipped for ten bucks by ordering by phone through Jay at 734-395-2869 during typical business hours.

Total was $110.65, w/ $10.00 for shipping and $5.70 in sales tax.

Here's the product: http://www.microkote.com/

I'll be using this in every soilless garden.


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## clive manc (Dec 5, 2012)

Chemical root pruning works - completely agree, tried it with soil and coco media. Much greener and healthier plants... less prone to nutrient lockout too 

i am in the UK, anyone heard of this new Root-prune compound we have over here? Only found it on twitter @ROOTPRUNE


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## Beachside (Dec 5, 2012)

Hay uncle Ben I was wondering if you have grown hydroponically? If so do you think that plant growth is similarly as fast when using chem root pruning? I know that my hydro plants grow much faster then my organic soil but I have always wondered if spin out treated pots would compare. Maybe I will give it a try one of these days however I have been considering switching to all hydro....


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 5, 2012)

Soil is just as fast if not faster than hydro. Depends......


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 5, 2012)

Beachside said:


> Hay uncle Ben I was wondering if you have grown hydroponically?





Uncle Ben said:


> Soil is just as fast if not faster than hydro. Depends......


I guess the answer is no, he has not.


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## skunky33 (Dec 6, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Soil is just as fast if not faster than hydro. Depends......


Bullshit, both done in optimum con. Hydro grows faster


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2012)

skunky33 said:


> Bullshit, both done in optimum con. Hydro grows faster


Here we go with the hydro versus soil hype. Beachside, good luck with the hydro, and don't forget the electrolytes. Plants crave them. 

I have never seen a hydro grower have the vigor or health that begins to compare with my gardens, and I've been posting to cannabis forums for at least 12 years, even before websites/forums were a reality. If you can do this....go for it --> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html


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## Murfy (Dec 6, 2012)

thanks again-

ben.


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## PJ Diaz (Dec 6, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Here we go with the hydro versus soil hype. Beachside, good luck with the hydro, and don't forget the electrolytes. Plants crave them.
> 
> I have never seen a hydro grower have the vigor or health that begins to compare with my gardens, and I've been posting to cannabis forums for at least 12 years, even before websites/forums were a reality. If you can do this....go for it --> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html


"never seen" does not = "never grown"

statements full of conjecture are not truth.


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## Beachside (Dec 6, 2012)

Hahaha electrolytes... Hell yes! This is the first forum I joined and quite recently! I have however been a medical merijuana patient since 1996 and grew up in northern Cali bay area. thus I have seen first hand hundreds and hundreds of grow rooms and outdoor scenes. This site is excellent! I have never been able to find strain info that is picture provin... People around here have gotten into a rut and grow such a small selection of genetics it is sad! Vertigons are the big in thing around here.... I like a nice small horizontal garden. And I really enjoy organic grading and creating an ecosystem. Much like having a reef aquarium  I am also interested in learning how to push the boundaries with regards to plant growth/ production and ecofriendly gardening. Hydroponics has shown a huge savings in water and nutrient consumption as compared to conventional row ag.

My undergraduate degree is in biology, however my masters is marine bio and unfortunately not horticulture : ) My understanding is thus; enregy is neither made nor destroyed. A system, be it plant or animal, consumes a quantity of energy and then uses said energy to preform a verity of functions. When plants are grown hydroponically the root system is much more efficient then the root system of a soil grown plant. This is because of the abundance of oxygen, water, and nutrient in the solution/surrounding media. No soil can accomplish this ideal. A system saves energy when it doesnt have to work as hard to gather said energy. This is exemplified by the prolific growth of plants utilizing NFT and aeroponics (a very minuscule root system providing for a very large amount of foliage and fruit/flower). This savings in energy is transferred to growth in foliage/fruit. 

Plant growth is a product of a group of limiting factors. While growing in ambient atmospheric conditions many times the limiting factor is a lack of Light shortly followed by lack of Co2 (or the converse). Temperature and humidity fall into this group but are easily controlled. With all other limiting factors taken in to account for it is the waterxygen:nutrient that becomes the issue. While a proficient gardener is able to judge the moisture level and achieve a near perfect ratio, that ratio is available only for a specific amount of time between waterings. With hydroponics one is able to achieve the ideal consistently through the plants life, morning noon and night, 24/7. This puts us back to light, temperature and Co2 which can now be increased for much faster growth. 

I am not tring to start a flame war but I am a scientist first and foremost. There is much and well documented research on the limiting factors experienced by plants. I was looking for specie specific personal experience as this particular plant has had very little scholarly research applied. 

Thanks and all the best!


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## Beachside (Dec 6, 2012)

Uncle Ben I wanted to thank you and I hope that didn't come off rude! I sometimes slip into professor mode and start lecturing... Sorry! 

I am definitely going to give microkote a try an my next plants it looks definitely looks beneficial (although I have been wondering how it might affect beneficial micro-organisms... But then if there is no run off there would be no issue) and I read about this stuff forever ago and always wanted to try but could never find spin out so I'm extremely excited about microkote!
thanks again and cheers!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 6, 2012)

Good points. It's how you dial in your program that counts.


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## skunky33 (Dec 7, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Here we go with the hydro versus soil hype. Beachside, good luck with the hydro, and don't forget the electrolytes. Plants crave them.
> 
> I have never seen a hydro grower have the vigor or health that begins to compare with my gardens, and I've been posting to cannabis forums for at least 12 years, even before websites/forums were a reality. If you can do this....go for it --> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html


I'm not hyping anything. I'm stating a simple fact. What does anything you've just posted have to do with the statement at hand? You expect people to just to accept what you say as if it comes from the mouth of god because you've been posting for 12 years, sounds like a pretty childish argument to me. The truth still remains hydro grows faster than soil in optimum conditions. It's just a scientific fact. "If you can do this.... go for it"? how old are you 12?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

skunky33 said:


> I'm not hyping anything. I'm stating a simple fact. What does anything you've just posted have to do with the statement at hand? You expect people to just to accept what you say as if it comes from the mouth of god because you've been posting for 12 years, sounds like a pretty childish argument to me. The truth still remains hydro grows faster than soil in optimum conditions. It's just a scientific fact. "If you can do this.... go for it"? how old are you 12?


I'm in my sixties and was growing pot before you were born. Have also grown about every kind of plant material for over 40 years.

Let's see your garden, son. Let's see if it begins to compare with the link I gave you. I've witnessed hundreds of hydro grows, many failures.....lucky to have 6" tall plants by the 6th week.

Doing 'dro may sound cool to da kids, but it usually ends up in marginal or failed production. 

This is a soil culture technique. Get with the program.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

Beachside said:


> Uncle Ben I wanted to thank you and I hope that didn't come off rude! I sometimes slip into professor mode and start lecturing... Sorry!
> 
> I am definitely going to give microkote a try an my next plants it looks definitely looks beneficial (although I have been wondering how it might affect beneficial micro-organisms... But then if there is no run off there would be no issue) and I read about this stuff forever ago and always wanted to try but could never find spin out so I'm extremely excited about microkote!
> thanks again and cheers!


You're fine. The only way you're gonna know about the effect on microbes is via a lab using a electron microscope. Since none of us have that luxury, we usually let feelings cloud our judgement. I've grown many a plant in copper hydroxide treated pots and they all have done fine - citrus, tomatoes, cannabis, oaks, etc.

Facts before feelings,
Uncle Ben


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## skunky33 (Dec 7, 2012)

I don't care if you're 150 years old it doesn't make you right. Hydroponics have been around for centuries so it's not just the "kids" doing it. You said you grow faster than any hydro which is bullshit. So, I'm commenting on you're bullshit. Oh, and whomever posted this originally wrote plainly "originally posted by Ben" before and after the topic. You're a miserable arrogant person for doing what you did, saying they stole your work, which is a complete lie. They never claimed it as theirs! I'm not even adopting hydro as a preferred method, I'm just stating simple fact which you can't dispute, so you act like a child.


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## Beachside (Dec 7, 2012)

Skunky- relax and read the whole post before attacking people. 

Uncle Ben are you not familiar with beneficial bacteria/fungus/nematodes? A sub-par high school microscope is all you need to make bacterial counts. measuring fungal strands or or making a nematode count would be quite the overkill on an SEM. I would highly suggest reading Dr. Elaine Ingham's books "The Soil Biology Primer", "The Soil Food Web", "The Compost Tea Brewing Manual 5th" and "Compost Tea Quality: Light Microscope Methods". Dr. Ingham is the worlds top soil microbiologist. She has pioneered much of the field. I took more then a few of her courses at Oregon state before she moved to Australia.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Dec 7, 2012)

skunky33 said:


> I'm not hyping anything. I'm stating a simple fact. What does anything you've just posted have to do with the statement at hand? You expect people to just to accept what you say as if it comes from the mouth of god because you've been posting for 12 years, sounds like a pretty childish argument to me. The truth still remains hydro grows faster than soil in optimum conditions. It's just a scientific fact. "If you can do this.... go for it"? how old are you 12?


How many hydro grows do you see around here that are even close to 'optimal'?


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## Alexander Supertramp (Dec 7, 2012)

Beachside said:


> Hahaha electrolytes... Hell yes! This is the first forum I joined and quite recently! I have however been a medical merijuana patient since 1996 and grew up in northern Cali bay area. thus I have seen first hand hundreds and hundreds of grow rooms and outdoor scenes. This site is excellent! I have never been able to find strain info that is picture provin... People around here have gotten into a rut and grow such a small selection of genetics it is sad! Vertigons are the big in thing around here.... I like a nice small horizontal garden. And I really enjoy organic grading and creating an ecosystem. Much like having a reef aquarium  I am also interested in learning how to push the boundaries with regards to plant growth/ production and ecofriendly gardening. Hydroponics has shown a huge savings in water and nutrient consumption as compared to conventional row ag.
> 
> My undergraduate degree is in biology, however my masters is marine bio and unfortunately not horticulture : ) My understanding is thus; enregy is neither made nor destroyed. A system, be it plant or animal, consumes a quantity of energy and then uses said energy to preform a verity of functions. When plants are grown hydroponically the root system is much more efficient then the root system of a soil grown plant. This is because of the abundance of oxygen, water, and nutrient in the solution/surrounding media. No soil can accomplish this ideal. A system saves energy when it doesnt have to work as hard to gather said energy. This is exemplified by the prolific growth of plants utilizing NFT and aeroponics (a very minuscule root system providing for a very large amount of foliage and fruit/flower). This savings in energy is transferred to growth in foliage/fruit.



Yep, conservation of energy. A soil grower can conserve as much energy as a hydro grower. NFT, very small root zone with great returns when tuned in. Industry standard IMO. 2 qts. of dirt can produce comparable results.


----------



## Beachside (Dec 7, 2012)

Beautiful plants! What strain if I may? Do you by any chance use copper based root pruning?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 7, 2012)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> View attachment 2434157


Ya gotta drench 'em with Lone Star beer......cause....'everything grows bigger in Texas'.


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## Beachside (Dec 8, 2012)

Bum bum bum.... Deep in the heart of Texas


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## skunky33 (Dec 8, 2012)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> How many hydro grows do you see around here that are even close to 'optimal'?


That's not what's in question. What's in question is Uncle Ben's comment "*Soil is just as fast if not faster than hydro. Depends......" *Which is plain bullshit. You say nobody on RIU can't grow hydro. So you're saying Ben is right? This feels like a clique in high school..


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## inhaleindica (Dec 8, 2012)

skunky33 said:


> That's not what's in question. What's in question is Uncle Ben's comment "*Soil is just as fast if not faster than hydro. Depends......" *Which is plain bullshit. You say nobody on RIU can't grow hydro. So you're saying Ben is right? This feels like a clique in high school..


Oh shut up already. I have had soil grow finish in 53 days when they should finish 63 days normally. It depends how great everyting is. Enviroment, air, light, nutes plus more. Like he said "Depends".


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## Alexander Supertramp (Dec 8, 2012)

Beachside said:


> Beautiful plants! What strain if I may? Do you by any chance use copper based root pruning?


Paradise Seeds Wappa clones. No root pruning.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Ya gotta drench 'em with Lone Star beer......cause....'everything grows bigger in Texas'.


Hank Hill says Alamo beer is better for cannabis plants.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 8, 2012)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Hank Hill says Alamo beer is better for cannabis plants.


Pearl beer. Brings out the sparkle in plants.


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## Bigby (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> I have to admit that since using it my yields increased at the expense of my sperm count. At my age, the hell with sperm....


LOL - Nice one, cracked me up.


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## skunky33 (Dec 9, 2012)

inhaleindica said:


> Oh shut up already. I have had soil grow finish in 53 days when they should finish 63 days normally. It depends how great everyting is. Enviroment, air, light, nutes plus more. Like he said "Depends".


I'm not talking about finishing. I'm talking about veg growth. The speed of finishing has nothing to do with soil or hydro. You shut up


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 9, 2012)

skunky33 said:


> I'm not talking about finishing. I'm talking about veg growth. The speed of finishing has nothing to do with soil or hydro. You shut up


No, you shut up. This thread is about root tip pruning techniques. Get with the program.


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## skunky33 (Dec 9, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> No, you shut up. This thread is about root tip pruning techniques. Get with the program.


Yes, copper carbonate, it's very interesting. Nurseries have been coating their burlap and the pots of larger ornamental for a long time. 1/10th copper carbonate to latex flat paint. It's not meant to be on plants that are ingested though, so I don't know if Marijuana uploads copper carbonate. It's definitely possible.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 10, 2012)

skunky33 said:


> Yes, copper carbonate, it's very interesting. Nurseries have been coating their burlap and the pots of larger ornamental for a long time. 1/10th copper carbonate to latex flat paint. It's not meant to be on plants that are ingested though, so I don't know if Marijuana uploads copper carbonate. It's definitely possible.


It's I.E. is a hydroxide, not a carbonate, and it's not "on plants". Look......I don't mind you commenting if you're on topic and want to learn, but if you wish to opine, know what you're talking about. You have not used or understand chemical root tip pruning products.


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## ArCaned (Dec 11, 2012)

Very interesting grow, clearly an excellent grower.


Strong work!


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## Halamaya (Dec 11, 2012)

UncleBen would you recommend chemical root pruning for the average grower like myself. I only us a 180 watt led on my grows and I usually take in anywhere from an ounce to 2 ounces per plant. In your opinion would my yields be greatly increased or am I using too little light to bother?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 11, 2012)

Halamaya said:


> UncleBen would you recommend chemical root pruning for the average grower like myself. I only us a 180 watt led on my grows and I usually take in anywhere from an ounce to 2 ounces per plant. In your opinion would my yields be greatly increased or am I using too little light to bother?


I wouldn't bother. For starts, Griffin's Spin-Out (copper hydroxide suspended in latex paint) is hard to find and it's expensive for the casual gardener like yourself.... you have to buy it in bulk. MicroKote is cheaper.

I'd up my game in general finding the right balance of light, water, temps, nutrition, etc. Gardening is all about The Balance. For example, I just ordered what might be the "holy grail" for cannabis plant nutrition (and will use it on tropicals) - http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Classic/Citrus-FeED.html In a typical soil blend you can use this from start to finish with excellent results. Do the usual noob drill using a bloom food during flowering and you'll fail.

Good luck,
UB


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## Halamaya (Dec 11, 2012)

You have Amazing results. That's funny I use their all purpose 20-20-20 for the veg and love the ease of use. I never would of thought to use that one I will definitely be checking it out thanks UncleBen.


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## Beachside (Dec 11, 2012)

When using jacks classic where do you get your calcium from? Mix in lime?

Auto correct is the most useless invention!


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## Beachside (Dec 11, 2012)

Oh also I was wondering if you were using a house paint sprayer to apply? Thanks again!


----------



## only71 (Dec 22, 2012)

passerbye said:


> A plant sprayed with Floromite looks pretty darn healthy. Smoking it is not. We are talking abotu long term effects, of which you are an idiot if you claim to know them. you dont.
> 
> Wow. I now see Ben in a new light. Which proves a good point. Dont get enamoured with someone and believe everything they say without question.
> 
> ...


plus it not being sold or used for everything leads me to agree that it must be too good to be true and not worth bigger buds that might lessen my life span


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## only71 (Dec 22, 2012)

blunters said:


> This person gave you credit ... it is in the first 3 lines of their post ... people open your fucking eyes and read... it says "Originally written by Uncle Ben" ... Miss Molie did give you credit ... you were just too blind to see it.



if you read a few more post down u see they say sorry and added it after he said this


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## only71 (Dec 22, 2012)

are you saying the world isnt flat? what is it a cube or a triangle?
silly


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## only71 (Dec 22, 2012)

Uncle Ben said:


> Here we go with the hydro versus soil hype. Beachside, good luck with the hydro, and don't forget the electrolytes. Plants crave them.
> 
> I have never seen a hydro grower have the vigor or health that begins to compare with my gardens, and I've been posting to cannabis forums for at least 12 years, even before websites/forums were a reality. If you can do this....go for it --> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html


BRONDO its got what plants crave


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## koolaid209 (Jan 28, 2013)

skunky33 said:


> I don't care if you're 150 years old it doesn't make you right. Hydroponics have been around for centuries so it's not just the "kids" doing it. You said you grow faster than any hydro which is bullshit. So, I'm commenting on you're bullshit. Oh, and whomever posted this originally wrote plainly "originally posted by Ben" before and after the topic. You're a miserable arrogant person for doing what you did, saying they stole your work, which is a complete lie. They never claimed it as theirs! I'm not even adopting hydro as a preferred method, I'm just stating simple fact which you can't dispute, so you act like a child.


Hey Skunky you should reread the thread beacuse if you did you would see that Potroast the admin steped in and edited that post to include the credit to Uncle Ben. Maybe you need to burn one and calm down a bit because to me your the ignorant one and its you whos getting worked up at Uncle Ben with all your swearing. Pay Attention before you start dissing someone who tries to help the cannabis comunity and us here at RIU.


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## sudshead (Feb 4, 2013)

Uncle ben -- been using spinout since you first spoke of it, great stuff. I also use fabric bags and they also work great, just an fyi.

When you transplant do your transplant similar to a tomato plant so roots grow off the stalk?


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 4, 2013)

I bury it deep.


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## Finisher (Feb 11, 2013)

Nice, Im not to proud to listen in an understand. The Cooper never enters the plant, plan an simple. Is that a Cindy x of Yours in that Avatar, Ben? She looks very plump. . I lost my Van password an email.. o well.. I don't mind looking new.

Van


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## Uncle Ben (Feb 11, 2013)

Avatar was a Posi. Jack Herer


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## Finisher (Feb 11, 2013)

She looks beefy, an I was just woundering an had to ask. You done some good reserch on afew things here an there, I seen on the other fourm were they took ur work word for word an made it sound as if it was his. I wouldve been a little mad too, after it happening so many times an all. An then to ack like You did something wrong kinda Péd Me off even!! This is one of the best fourms hands down.... Nice work on the Moisture Stress, That was allot of Good info, an Its helped me out an I know its helped allot of other Peeps too. Thank You very Much, Uncle Ben. Ok, Now I feel like Im kissing some ass or something along them lines Take care Everyone an May God bless People like Us.

Van


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 18, 2013)

Found this useful little tidbit about transplanting on Washington State University's webpage about "Horticulture Myths", actually there is alot of good reads on here, originally linked in another one of UB's posts, Thought I'd share the knowledge!!!

Though gentle handling of roots is good advice when transplanting seedlings, especially annual flowers 
and vegetables, woody perennials, shrubs, and trees all benefit from a more vigorous approach. There are 
several reasons for this, and surprisingly some of the harshest techniques result in the healthiest plants. 
Containerized materials, especially those in gallon sized pots, often have serious root problems as a result 
of poor potting-up techniques. Potbound plants exhibit circling root systems, which if not corrected 
become woodier and more troublesome the older they get. Eventually these circling root systems become 
girdling roots, which can lead to the early death of otherwise healthy trees and shrubs. At transplant 
time, a more aggressive approach to root preparation can discover potentially fatal root flaws. Circling 
roots, J-hooked roots, knotted roots, and other misshapen roots can often be corrected by careful pruning. 
In this manner it&#8217;s possible to remove those root problems before they threaten the survival of your shrub 
or tree. 
It&#8217;s important to realize that roots respond to pruning in much the same way as the crown: pruning 
induces new growth. Roots that are pruned at transplant time, especially those that are excessively long 
or misshapen, will respond by generating new, flexible roots that help them establish in the landscape. It 
is vital that these new transplants are kept well-watered during this time. 
A second problem with containerized materials can also be avoided during your root inspection. In 
general, the media in the container is a soilless mix with a large proportion of organic matter and pumice. 
If transplanted with the plant as part of the root ball, this material will inhibit root development outside 
the planting hole. Furthermore, the porous texture of this planting media will often lose water more 
rapidly than the surrounding native soil, resulting in increased water stress to your new transplant. It is 
much better for root establishment to remove as much of the container material as possible before the 
plant is installed. The best use for the discarded container mix is as a topdressing over the disturbed soil. 
When covered with wood chips or another mulch that will reduce weed colonization, the container media 
serves as a nice source of slow-release nutrients.


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 18, 2013)

UB are you aware of any plants to co-plant w/cannabis as beneficial to the development of Mycorrhizae and resulting in better root structure and development?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 18, 2013)

No I'm not. I do practice mulching the top of pots under some circumstances like outdoors or for perennials. For cannabis indoors, don't think it's practical.

This is one of the best ditty's on container gardening.
http://forums2.gardenweb.com/forums/load/contain/msg0316064615891.html?14


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## propertyoftheUS (Mar 18, 2013)

Man that link is very freakin informative!!! I started reading it and cant stop!!! I've read just about every link on that page as well. I'm starting to get a true understanding on what makes a plant tick!! Thanks again UB!!


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## PrimeTimeNugs (Mar 21, 2013)

did you write this section in the 2006 bible?


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 21, 2013)

PrimeTimeNugs said:


> did you write this section in the 2006 bible?


Yep, pix are mine too from the first page. Jorge plagarized the content but got it wrong about the tips turning upward. I brought it to his attention but it was too late.


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## Xrangex (Apr 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's my thread and that's my garden! Is there any honor or honesty left in the cannabiz? (Sheesh, was there ever? ) Shame on you for stripping the originator's name and posing my garden, genetics, and experiment as your own!
> 
> Here's the original FAQ I wrote when I was at OG, installed by an admin by the name of Shipperke.
> 
> ...



It said "originally posted by uncle Ben @ the top" 

didnt think you'd be the type of guy to freak out over something like that UB


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 15, 2013)

Xrangex said:


> It said "originally posted by uncle Ben @ the top"
> 
> didnt think you'd be the type of guy to freak out over something like that UB


The credit was not given to me until I pointed it out to admin.


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## Xrangex (Apr 15, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> The credit was not given to me until I pointed it out to admin.


Oh, ok that makes sense.. I guess i'd be pretty upset too if I saw a repost of an entire experiment haha


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## NietzscheKeen (Jul 1, 2013)

Still looking for Spinout, but all I can really find is treated pots. Can we no longer buy spinout? Sorry if I'm asking a redundant question.

Edit: Never mind, I found the answer!


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## billy*bong*thornton (Jul 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Nope. Soil only.


hey ub, why do you say no hydro ? or what would the difference be soil v hydro ? couldn't this be a good way to stop outlets blocking even if only used on the outlets alone ?


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 14, 2013)

billy*bong*thornton said:


> hey ub, why do you say no hydro ? or what would the difference be soil v hydro ? couldn't this be a good way to stop outlets blocking even if only used on the outlets alone ?


The copper ions in the water would kill the roots. Solution - grow in soil.


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## billy*bong*thornton (Jul 14, 2013)

yea soil is the go, but if the only copper released is when the root tips react with the copper coat and locked in the root tips there is no copper to go back to the res ? iv read a couple studies of spin-out/microkote saying there is the same amount of copper in water run off as water applied, so would that be right the copper only that leaches is when the root tips absorb it and lock it ? that's just where my thoughts went when I was reading the same copper in as out


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 14, 2013)

It was developed for soil culture.


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## billy*bong*thornton (Jul 14, 2013)

are you 100% against hydro or just over people asking things you cant be bothered with ? I know that it was made for soil but could be useful in recycling SoG systems or any set-up where outlet root blockage is a problem and testing in soil plants showed that copper dose not leach from the cote into the run off water even over time ? i only asked why you say hydro, have you tested the amount copper in water of a hydro using copper and not ??


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## Izoc666 (Jul 15, 2013)

NietzscheKeen said:


> Still looking for Spinout, but all I can really find is treated pots. Can we no longer buy spinout? Sorry if I'm asking a redundant question.
> 
> Edit: Never mind, I found the answer!


If you re looking to save your checkpocket more then i would highly recommend to get air pot ~ Rootmaker, they have really excellent products.

Stay High


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## inhaleindica (Jul 16, 2013)

Izoc666 said:


> If you re looking to save your checkpocket more then i would highly recommend to get air pot ~ Rootmaker, they have really excellent products.
> 
> Stay High


They make excellent products but pain in the ass to clean!!! So I just get a bucket and drill holes in it. Pain in the ass to drill holes, but in the long run they are easier to clean haha


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## Izoc666 (Jul 16, 2013)

inhaleindica said:


> They make excellent products but pain in the ass to clean!!! So I just get a bucket and drill holes in it. Pain in the ass to drill holes, but in the long run they are easier to clean haha


No, not that hard to clean and like do the regular pots. Let me get the link for you to view the pictures so you can clear idea of this products.

http://www.rootmaker.com/retail_products.php?Pageload=2#top

thats what im using their products.


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## inhaleindica (Jul 17, 2013)

Izoc666 said:


> No, not that hard to clean and like do the regular pots. Let me get the link for you to view the pictures so you can clear idea of this products.
> 
> http://www.rootmaker.com/retail_products.php?Pageload=2#top
> 
> thats what im using their products.


That looks so much better than air pots. Damn easier to clean too!


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 2, 2013)

Lifted from another site and the links work. Here's your ticket!

1) Buy some dry Copper(II) Hydroxide, this is used usually as a fungus pesticide. Interestingly, SePro stuff can be bought on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276), this is probably the same stuff they put into Microkote. Other sources are 
KOCIDE 3000 (made by DuPont) or http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html.

2) Dilute the Copper(II) Hydroxide in latex paint. The original SpinOut was made with 13 oz/Gal of Copper(II) Hydroxide (source: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract). Remember to account for the original concentration of dry Copper(II) Hydroxide in the pesticide bag (this is typically 50%, for which you would add 26 oz per Gal of latex paint).


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## HotCheetos (Nov 2, 2013)

Would this stuff be safe for some sort of medium-based hydro, like a Coco or Perlite hempy bucket?


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## AimAim (Nov 2, 2013)

OK.... AMEN!

Since UB kind of brought this thread back to life I thought I'd relate my experience with it last grow. I initially heard about it right here on this thread. Looked worthy of a try so I bought a 32 OZ bottle of MicroKote direct from MK off their website. Painted my final 5 gal pots with it. Took about a minute to paint each pot with a foam brush, stuff dried almost immediately as I was outside in the sun.

I only did 4 pots and did not have any "control" to compare with so can't say anything except the grow went real well for my first indoor grow. Pics in my sig, zip to post #101 to see how they turned out. After harvesting I pulled the root balls and there was not a single root to be seen, anywhere. But when I knocked on the rootball about a 1/4" veneer of soil fell off revealing a mass of roots. The root ball was so dense it was hard to get the soil shaken off. A massive root system of fine roots, from 2" below the surface to the bottom of the pot there was probably not a cubic centimeter of soil volume that was not occupied by roots.

I'll rinse the pots out shortly and touch them up if needed, and paint two additional new ones for my upcoming transplant to final pots in a week or two. I just checked the bottle and I used maybe 4 oz total or an oz/pot. For a small grower like myself this will last me several grows and several years. Stuff is $30/qt, don't remember what shipping was but it was reasonable, less than $40 total if I remember right. 

So if I can get 2 grows per application as is suggested that would be 32 pots, at an ounce applied per pot, pot then used two grows for a total of 64 grow cycles. Paying $40 per quart means I will be spending the outrageous amount of 62 cents per pot per grow. My point here this is really not at all expensive.

So I bought it, used it, it worked 100% as described, ended up with a nice grow, and it is inexpensive. All this is fact. What would I have done without it? I have no idea, and will never know, because I'll never go to final pot without it.

Thanks UB for sharing this with all of us 6 yrs ago.


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 2, 2013)

Well done and a big hallelujah! ^ ^


----------



## Dboi87 (Nov 7, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> It's I.E. is a hydroxide, not a carbonate, and it's not "on plants". Look......I don't mind you commenting if you're on topic and want to learn, but if you wish to opine, know what you're talking about. You have not used or understand chemical root tip pruning products.


So I did some research because we have lots of copper carbonate (also called cupric carbonate sometimes) and I guess it can be used for root pruning as well also in latex paint. Maybe the info I read was old but apparently the carbonate works as well. I may try it soon and reoort back on how it works


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## Dboi87 (Nov 8, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I wouldn't bother. For starts, Griffin's Spin-Out (copper hydroxide suspended in latex paint) is hard to find and it's expensive for the casual gardener like yourself.... you have to buy it in bulk. MicroKote is cheaper.
> 
> I'd up my game in general finding the right balance of light, water, temps, nutrition, etc. Gardening is all about The Balance. For example, I just ordered what might be the "holy grail" for cannabis plant nutrition (and will use it on tropicals) - http://www.jrpeters.com/Products/Jack-s-Classic/Citrus-FeED.html In a typical soil blend you can use this from start to finish with excellent results. Do the usual noob drill using a bloom food during flowering and you'll fail.
> 
> ...


I noticed that the citrus feed didn't seem to have all the elements dyna grob FP has. Would I need to supplement with calcium or anything else using this?


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## Uncle Ben (Nov 8, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I noticed that the citrus feed didn't seem to have all the elements dyna grob FP has. Would I need to supplement with calcium or anything else using this?


Don't know.


----------



## bluntz48 (Nov 16, 2013)

Hey what are your guys' thoughts on Superoots Airpots vs Copper (II) Hydroxide method for root pruning?


----------



## qroox (Dec 25, 2013)

Tio, i have read this thread twice, i know you wrote that Griffin's spin out product is safe but what about mixing latex paint and a fungicide? I can order the copper hydroxide bag and buy some latex paint from a local store..how safe would it be , when i am mixing a random paint and painting them myself. Is there any other way? Is there any link still available to buy treated pots or premade paint? Thanks for your time..Happy Holidays to you and Aunt Benita....!!


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 25, 2013)

Here's a post I did at Riddle3m. Links should still be valid, don't know. Yeah, Merry Christmas to you and yours!

******************************************************************************************

Here's an excellent post lifted from another forum on making your own Griffin's Spin-Out. The links are still valid. 

Microkote used to be made under the brand-name SpinOut by Griffin L.L.C. until SePRO bought the rights. After the re-branding they added other metals labeled as "nutrients". In my opinion this is all marketing; the roots will be stopped and not absorb anything near the Microkote layer - so really the only active ingredient is the chemical that stops the roots from growing further (this chemical is copper hydroxide which was the original ingredient in SpinOut).

Microkote is pricey ($28 for 8oz). But you should be able to make your own.

1) Buy some dry Copper(II) Hydroxide, this is used usually as a fungus pesticide. Interestingly, SePro stuff can be bought on ebay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/CuPRO-5000DF-Fungicide-Bactericide-61-3-Copper-Hydroxide-SePRO-3lb-foil-bag-/370622313276), this is probably the same stuff they put into Microkote. Other sources are 
KOCIDE 3000 (made by DuPont) or http://kingquenson.en.alibaba.com/productshowimg/424951536-200579235/Copper_hydroxide.html.

2) Dilute the Copper(II) Hydroxide in latex paint. The original SpinOut was made with 13 oz/Gal of Copper(II) Hydroxide (source: http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/28/5/527.6.abstract). Remember to account for the original concentration of dry Copper(II) Hydroxide in the pesticide bag (this is typically 50%, for which you would add 26 oz per Gal of latex paint).

Remember to read all the instructions on the bag when handling pesticides.

This costs about 10x less than buying the Microkote solution which is over-priced and over-marketed (b/c of those extra additive "nutrients") in my opinion.


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## AimAim (Dec 25, 2013)

qroox said:


> Is there any link still available to buy premade paint?


Like this maybe? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.

http://www.microkote.com/


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## qroox (Dec 25, 2013)

AimAim said:


> Like this maybe? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you.
> 
> http://www.microkote.com/


Exactly! Never searched that one actually. I should have gone the easy way..^^ . I already contacted the ebay provider for the fungicide but shipping costs more than product itself. Thanks Tio,Thanks AimAim. Happy holidays..!!( although i am working..heh )


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## AimAim (Dec 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Microkote is pricey ($28 for 8oz).


UB, it's $30 bucks a Quart direct from mfgr.

I did my own cost analysis back in post 213. 

For 62 cents/pot/grow it's not worth it to me to try to mix my own. But I'm small time, if I was doing dozens of pots I might mix my own.

PS - Wonder if Bordeau would have any similar effect? Got scads of that stuff in various forms.


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## qroox (Dec 25, 2013)

AimAim said:


> UB, it's $30 bucks a Quart direct from mfgr.
> 
> I did my own cost analysis back in post 213.
> 
> ...


If you're in the US.I live in Europe  and i've read your post as well.It WORTHS the money.I've contacted them..let's hope they will do something.I have to pay 102$ for fedex shipping...come on the 32oz costs ~35


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 25, 2013)

People, root tip pruning products were designed for perennials. I wouldn't bother if I were you. Try some root tip pruning pots if you must.


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## Nizza (Dec 25, 2013)

Do the fabric pots also deal with root spinout?
something bad about allowing the extra air in through the bottom of my pots? I put my pots on a preforated floor somewhat like an airhockey table. The air is force up through the pots

I second the question, I know it's said its not for hydro but would this work on a hempy setup?


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## AimAim (Dec 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> People, root tip pruning products were designed for perennials.* I wouldn't bother if I were you*. Try some root tip pruning pots if you must.


You have me totally confused now. Isn't Spinout/Microkote a root tip pruning product? Didn't you do the original write-up with positive vibes about the copper-based products? Maybe it's your dry sense of humor or something, anyway not sure of the gist of this post.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 26, 2013)

Look, I got 2 cases of Spin Out in 16 oz spray cans free. Yes, it works great on annuals. Never said it didn't. I gave you a recipe to make your own. But some of you guys are struggling to find a cheap source of this product, hence I advised "don't bother". It was developed for perennials. Has nothing to do with my success experimenting on this annual. It's part of a system that is geared for perennials.

UB


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## qroox (Dec 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Look, I got 2 cases of Spin Out in 16 oz spray cans free. Yes, it works great on annuals. Never said it didn't. I gave you a recipe to make your own. But some of you guys are struggling to find a cheap source of this product, hence I advised "don't bother". It was developed for perennials. Has nothing to do with my success experimenting on this annual. It's part of a system that is geared for perennials.
> 
> UB


Got it UB, thanks. I am fine using my plastic pots right now but this drill was really interesting and a good problem -not- to have. I got a gift and a problem for you, posted on the thread for 4 colas and at my signature link. My soluble fertilizer h as a 10-3-7+ micros(not all 16,but i m planning to order dynagrowFP) and it says 5ml per lt in winter,10ml per lt the rest of the year..it is originally made for oranges,lemons etc..no hype included or labeled.i can post what is in it if you want to.i fed half the dose on the autoflower
r and 7ml on my sativa. I can see som yellowing on the shortie and some strange looking leaves on the tall girl. Nothing else tho. They are in soil ofc, with a 5% premix of 3-3-6..nothing wacked. Also they were 100% green a week ago. Let me know if you want any more input. Thanks again for your time..!!


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## AimAim (Dec 26, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Look, I got 2 cases of Spin Out in 16 oz spray cans free. Yes, it works great on annuals. Never said it didn't. I gave you a recipe to make your own. But some of you guys are struggling to find a cheap source of this product, hence I advised "don't bother". It was developed for perennials. Has nothing to do with my success experimenting on this annual. It's part of a system that is geared for perennials.
> 
> UB


OK, gotcha.


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## crispypb840 (Dec 27, 2013)

I'm a believer. Definitely going to give this a trial next go round. Thanks.


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 27, 2013)

qroox said:


> My soluble fertilizer h as a 10-3-7+ micros(not all 16,but i m planning to order dynagrowFP) and it says 5ml per lt in winter,10ml per lt the rest of the year..


Got a product name and label that gives the ingredients?


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## qroox (Dec 27, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Got a product name and label that gives the ingredients?


 it's name is Pokon. For oranges,lemoms etc.Dutch soluble fertilizer available at local nurseries. Cheap stuff. I cannot find the chart online so i will post the chart on its back when i get home..!! I have ordered dyna gro today.. lets see what it does..!! Also i amwaiting for mel franks bible..damn i need it..!!


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## qroox (Dec 27, 2013)

*It contains..:
10% N - 3,9% nitrate,2.8% ammoniac,3,3%urinal
3% P water soluble pentoxide
7% K water soluble dioxide of potassium
micros :

most of them in chilated form
0,01% B
0,002% Cu
0,10% Fe
0,01 Mg
0,002 Mo
0,002 Zn
all it contains




Let me know what you think.They reccomend 5ml per liter during winter,and 10ml per liter during summer.. *


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2013)

Really don't know what to think. It has some salts that are foreign to me, excuse the pun.


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## qroox (Dec 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Really don't know what to think. It has some salts that are foreign to me, excuse the pun.


A full dose of 10-3-7 would be 10 ml tho..right ? It is kinda tricky this winter-summer thing.Dyna gro should hurry.  . I've watered plenty today,with a good runoff and most of this water,was rainwater.Could you check this little fella over here ?
This auto was getting,3-5ml every 2nd watering.A yellowing in the middle ? I think i should let it develop a little,see what happens ?


and a this lil unknown strain,topped with your tech above the 2nd node


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## qroox (Dec 28, 2013)

This girl over here went bushy..i have not read your post then ^^. This green leaf is light bleaching or lack of chlorophyl ? OR - in other words - i would appreciate a lot having your input  .


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 28, 2013)

I wouldn't worry about it. It's the overall health of the plant that counts. Give a few more weeks and it'll be covered up.


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## Ego Fum Papa (Dec 28, 2013)

Wow. I just read the original post. Very interesting, very informative, very articulate, and overall very good work. Thanks Uncle Ben.


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## mmjmon22 (Mar 10, 2014)

Finally found this thread. Have to subscribe.


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## DillWang (Mar 21, 2015)

Hi Uncle Ben & Others,

Don't know if this was mentioned before (EDIT: Ok, overlooked...), probably country specific (i.e. I cant find any Micro-kote / Spin-out etc. etc. and Ebay links are US):

Kocide Blue Extra Fungicide - 350g/kg copper hydroxide (present as 'cupric' hydroxide, say it with a British accent, its sexier...)

Manufactured by Dupont, also 300g/kg variety available 'Kocide Opti'

Blue Shield Copper Fungicide - Bayer 500g/kg (50% composition as described by UB)

Or, if you are interested in making up small batch (perhaps...very small...), although obviously at higher expense: 

Kocide Blue Extra 'Garden Fungicide' as distributed by Multicrop - 30g packet at the same 350g/kg concentration

Anyway, really dig the mix with latex idea, thanks heaps for the dilution factor(s) - makes it all a little more manageable when ready made product(s) not available.

Take it easy all, and thanks for all the awesome info guys!


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## DillWang (Mar 21, 2015)

Also, in regards to air pruning pots, some might find this info interesting: 

Sorry, low res pics, but basically days in 10 day increments, so first circle 90 days, solid line is 1.5L airpot, dotted line 8 litre airpot



And roots:



I will leave the rest of the ponderings up to you, might be interesting info regarding choice of pot size & plant age and or upcanning etc. 

Please note, I am not questioning or debating any of the previous comments / advice regarding upcanning etc. as posted by UB and the cohorts of sanity - as far as im concerned that all stands as it is, just thought these stats might make an interesting contribution?

If not, ill start singing this, that'll really piss you all off hahahahha: 





All the best everyone, peace, love and good hapPenis stuff

Dillbert Wang


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## DillWang (Mar 23, 2015)

also; uncle ben - after spraying the pots, do you simply leave 24 hours for drying before use? i.e. provided the 'paint' has dried its ready to go? 

ordered the kocide blue extra 350g/kg - easily available by local agriculture distributor

thanks


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 24, 2015)

I let the pots dry in the sun which can be as little 30 minutes. 

Also, if the inside of the pot is shiny and slick, rough it up a bit with 00 grade steel wool.


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## DillWang (Mar 26, 2015)

Uncle Ben, Fantastic! 

The news is as good as it is sticky (yes, no amount of tissue or towels can deal with this mess!): 

got 10kg bag of 500g/kg (different brand than what has previously been listed: HYDROCOP WG - further details can be googled) and got the paint, ready to mix, apply, lift-off.

Thanks so much for the heads up about 'roughing up the shiny and slick finish' - because I won't have spray application, and I think I see the point to this.

Also, for those worried about water quality, pH and blooming nute power P/K^2=E=BUDS XL, THIS IS A MUST SEE:


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## Uncle Ben (Mar 27, 2015)

That woman is a delusional nut caught up in imaginary conspiracies. Chem trails anyone?


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## DillWang (Apr 6, 2015)

Hey UB,

Well, everything is absolutely grand on my side, thank you again for all the help/information you have provided RIU wide, despite the horrendously stupid bullshit that one endures during it all - i downloaded all the threads and have since read through them all (i.e. your threads) - and holy shit batman, I thought I was stupid, but dear god, there are plenty of contenders. 

Anyway, this has always sparked my interest (oh yes, taste the thick of that pun)






Enjoy, and thanks, and may the dielectric capacitance be with you, lol


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## The Yorkshireman (Apr 24, 2015)

Airpots.


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## Uncle Ben (Apr 24, 2015)

Air pruning is fine and is what I'm using in a large greenhouse. It's RootBuilder and the beauty is that you can easily expand the pot by adding panels. I add 5 to end up with a 260 gal. pot.


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## DillWang (Apr 24, 2015)

The Yorkshireman said:


> Airpots.


"Slow release voice control" - 'AAAAiiiirrrrrrrr Poooootttssssssss ddddaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh.......'


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## Jason9922 (Apr 27, 2015)

Taken from PDF released by company who makes spin out found after you google spinout root pruner, one of the mains will be titled- "Update on Copper Root Control" This will open a PDF containing this quote -

"Spin Out has been formulated to adhere to plastic nursery containers and styroblocks and holds the copper hydroxide in place to control root growth only along the container wall. It is easily applied to the inner surfaces of new and used containers using conventional spray paint euipment . It was also formulated to reduce the problems of copper-induced iron chlorosis
associated with home brewed mixtures of latex paint and copper carbonate and the Canadian treated styrofoam blocks. When root tips reach the sides of the container, the Spin Out inhibits root elongation and deflection and stimulates root branching. As the plant produces new roots, they in turn will be pruned, resulting in a very fibrous root system. Spin Out prevents the “cage root” condition where roots are only present on the outside of the root ball. Instead, the roots explore and utilize all the available potting media. An improvement in root distribution can lead to an improvement in the nutrient status and health of the plant
which will support quicker growth when upcanned or transplanted. With the absence of circled and matted roots at transplanting resulting in decreased sites where root diseases can enter the plant. Also, root heat stress associated with black nursery containers is reduced in Spin Out-treated containers. In a typical black nursery pot, 80% of the roots are within one inch of the container wall. Spin Out will cause the system to be distributed more evenly through the soil thereby reducing the mass of roots
which come in contact with the plastic that are subject to temperature extremes. Better root distribution can also increase the nutrient status of roots since the plant is able to utilize all the available soil in the container. An increase in flowering has been demonstrated with lantana grown in Spin Out-treated containers during greenhouse production (Table 1). Spin Out also makes removal of plants from containers easier since the roots do not adhere to the plastic or Styrofoam.

Spin Out treated fabric (Tex-R) can be used between the socket and growing pots of the potin-pot growing system to control rooting-out. This is a problem where roots grow out of the drain holes of the growing pot into the socket pot and then into the surrounding soil, thus preventing the plant from being hand harvested. Spin Out treated fabric provides a physical and chemical barrier to reduce these escaped roots."


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## DillWang (Sep 20, 2015)

Hey Uncle Ben,

Have not posted for a while, but, feel like I should give you another - THANKS SO MUCH!

The copper hydroxide paint mixture works a treat! Well and truly, the level of substrate innervation is AWESOME, and again, your words regarding the airpots and humidity are spot on, and am finding with the combo im getting results far surpassing airpots alone. Previously I asked you some rather convoluted/complicated questions regarding substrate composition etc. etc. - and can see now that this is easily solved by - well - painting the pots! I literally can not water them enough, trays full of water, all gone within 2-4 hours, ferocious joy. 

Also, as far as all your other gardening tweeks and pointers go - thanks man, my growth and flower production beforehand was great, but since paying more and more attention to the little details provided by yourself and other like-minded people on the forum, im now finding myself in a total breeze of ease and joy of growing. 

So, all that said and done, THANKS AGAIN AND ALL THE BEST!

Truly, thank you for being a point of sanity in an otherwise insane world.


One of the best quotes recently from a friend of mine, hahahaha, regarding the nitrogen levels (another snake oil addict): 

"But I don't like em that green!" 

At which point, in amazement, all I could do was agree with him  (for the sake of my sanity and peace) 
while I watched chlorophyll WEEP!


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