# Humic Acid Reduces THC???



## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

just doing some reading and came across this article








Impact of N, P, K, and Humic Acid Supplementation on the Chemical Profile of Medical Cannabis (Cannabis sativa L)


Mineral nutrition is a major factor affecting plant growth and function. Increasing evidence supports the involvement of macro and micronutrients in secondary metabolism. The use of the appropriate nutritional measures including organic fertilizers, supplements, and biostimulants is therefore a...




www.frontiersin.org




also 
The influence of the nutritional supplements on mineral levels also varied throughout the plant (Figure 5). Not surprisingly, P treatment increased P levels in the fan and inflorescent leaves. More surprising was the increase in Ca levels in flowers and inflorescence leaves. P supplementation increased Ca levels in the flowers from 13.2 to 29.4 mg g−1 (Figure 5D). In addition, P supplementation increased zinc levels in all of the studied organs.


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## Rurumo (Feb 21, 2021)

I've just read through this once, but it is interesting. I wish they had looked at increased K rather than P, or into ca or sulfur. The humic acid results are a bit disturbing. I'll definitely be going over this article more carefully later today. Good find.


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I've just read through this once, but it is interesting. I wish they had looked at increased K rather than P, or into ca or sulfur. The humic acid results are a bit disturbing. I'll definitely be going over this article more carefully later today. Good find.


Yeah I'm still reading it and it has a lot of links to other papers so I'll be reading a lot today lol


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## rkymtnman (Feb 21, 2021)

good post.

i've used HA in the past: i find it hard to believe it drops thc that much though. might have to re-think if i use it again. 

post up what else you find plz.


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> good post.
> 
> i've used HA in the past: i find it hard to believe it drops thc that much though. might have to re-think if i use it again.
> 
> post up what else you find plz.


here one on k uptake








Response of Medical Cannabis (Cannabis sativa L.) Genotypes to K Supply Under Long Photoperiod


Potassium is involved in regulation of multiple developmental, physiological, and metabolic processes in plants, including photosynthesis and water relations. We lack information about the response of medical cannabis to mineral nutrition in general, and K in particular, which is required for...




www.frontiersin.org


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## Dreminen169 (Feb 21, 2021)

What do they mean by the ‘inflorescence leaves’? Are they saying that those concentrations were not affected in the buds of the lowers? Just the leaves?


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## Rurumo (Feb 21, 2021)

dtcharneski said:


> here one on k uptake
> 
> 
> 
> ...


really interesting...study by the same people. Probably just too much info to include in the first study.


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## Rurumo (Feb 21, 2021)

Dreminen169 said:


> What do they mean by the ‘inflorescence leaves’? Are they saying that those concentrations were not affected in the buds of the lowers? Just the leaves?
> View attachment 4832773


Yes, the increased P group showed a reduction in the leaves only


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Dreminen169 said:


> What do they mean by the ‘inflorescence leaves’? Are they saying that those concentrations were not affected in the buds of the lowers? Just the leaves?
> View attachment 4832773


I think they are referring to sugar leaves


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## rkymtnman (Feb 21, 2021)

Dreminen169 said:


> What do they mean by the ‘inflorescence leaves’? Are they saying that those concentrations were not affected in the buds of the lowers? Just the leaves?
> View attachment 4832773


i found this but i still not sure of the difference either???





Distinguish between flower and inflorescence.


Distinguish between flower and inflorescence.. Ans: Hint:An inflorescence is a flower group arranged on a stem consisting of a main branch or of a complicated branch arrangement. It is the modified seed plant's part where flowers develop.Complete ans...




www.vedantu.com


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Response of Medical Cannabis (Cannabis sativa L.) to Nitrogen Supply Under Long Photoperiod


The development progression of medical cannabis plants includes a vegetative growth phase under long photoperiod, followed by a reproductive phase under short photoperiod. Establishment of plant architecture at the vegetative phase affects its reproduction potential under short photoperiod...




www.frontiersin.org


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## Wastei (Feb 21, 2021)

Not to be that guy but it's only one of many studies about the subject matter.

Haven't read the article but I have a hard time seeing HA having any negative effect in soil and containers. If the study is with hydro I have experienced the same thing by trying to add HA straight to the reservoir. But that's mostly from poor root development.

I'm sure the result would be different with a more controlled clean Humic extract. Did they use different extracts and how's the manufacturing process? Clean, dirty or something in between? 

Did they use HA as foliar spray or in the nutrient solution and what was the application rate? Did they optimize microbial life that's supposed to benefit from added HA? Cheers!


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

An Update on Plant Photobiology and Implications for Cannabis Production


This review presents recent developments in plant photobiology and lighting systems for horticultural crops, as well as potential applications for cannabis (Cannabis sativa and C. indica) plant production. The legal and commercial production of the cannabis plant is a relatively new, rapidly...




www.frontiersin.org


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Wastei said:


> Not to be that guy but it's only one of many studies about the subject matter.
> 
> Haven't read the article but I have a hard time seeing HA having any negative effect in soil and containers. If the study is with hydro I have experienced the same thing by trying to add HA straight to the reservoir. But that's mostly from poor root development.
> 
> I'm sure the result would be different with a more controlled clean Humic extract. Did they use different extracts and how's the manufacturing process? Clean, dirty or something in between? Cheers!


in the article they show the HA helps with nutrient uptake and doesn't affect plant growth per say just the production of the secondary metabolites


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Architecture and Florogenesis in Female Cannabis sativa Plants


The inflorescence is the main product of medical cannabis. Hundreds of specialized metabolites with potential bioactivity are produced and accumulated in the glandular trichomes that are highly abundant mainly on female inflorescences. Understanding the morphophysiological and genetic mechanisms...




www.frontiersin.org


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

another good one








Plant Growth-Promoting Rhizobacteria for Cannabis Production: Yield, Cannabinoid Profile and Disease Resistance


Legal Cannabis production is now experiencing growing consumer demand due to changing legislation around the world. However, because of heavy restrictions on cannabis cultivation over the past century, little scientific research has been conducted on this crop, in particular around use of...




www.frontiersin.org


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## Rdubz (Feb 21, 2021)

dtcharneski said:


> just doing some reading and came across this article
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow this a good find it's a lot to process so basically HA helps uptake but hinders canabinoid production?


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Rdubz said:


> Wow this a good find it's a lot to process so basically HA helps uptake but hinders canabinoid production?


yes that's what I get from it, A catch 22 really, the HA allows you to run a lower ec, helps with the nutrient uptake and hence should and in most cases does help with overall plant growth, but at the expense of secondary metabolites. I guess the HA breaks down the secondary metabolites the same way it breaks down matter to help facilitate nutrient uptake


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## rkymtnman (Feb 21, 2021)

dtcharneski said:


> yes that's what I get from it, A catch 22 really, the HA allows you to run a lower ec, helps with the nutrient uptake and hence should and in most cases does help with overall plant growth, but at the expense of secondary metabolites. I guess the HA breaks down the secondary metabolites the same way it breaks down matter to help facilitate nutrient uptake


so what would you expect Fulvic acid to do? they are pretty similar.

i've used a fulvic/humic blend and if i remember correctly, the fulvic is used at most ph levels. the humic is best at +7 pH which hydro solutions should be around 6 anyway? someone correct me if that's wrong.


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## Wastei (Feb 21, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> so what would you expect Fulvic acid to do? they are pretty similar.
> 
> i've used a fulvic/humic blend and if i remember correctly, the fulvic is used at most ph levels. the humic is best at +7 pH which hydro solutions should be around 6 anyway? someone correct me if that's wrong.


They're both technically chelating agents so the whole study sound really weird and interesting to me really. I haven't used kelp/humic in late flower though, only to build structure with more axillary shoots and root growth.

Maybe there's a reason some recommended to stop using Kelp/Humic blend about half way in flower? I've always intuitively stopped when I have enough tops, that's normally in mid flower. Cheers!


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

FA helps the plant uptake fe and mg it acts as a chelater it more affects the ions that have to do with photosynthesis,


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## rkymtnman (Feb 21, 2021)

Wastei said:


> They're both technically chelating agents so the whole study sound really weird and interesting to me really. I haven't used kelp/humic in late flower though, only to build structure with more axillary shoots and root growth.
> 
> Maybe there's a reason some recommended to stop using Kelp/Humic blend about half way in flower? I've always intuitively stopped when I have enough tops, that's normally in mid flower. Cheers!


i did look at the GH feedchart: they say to stop floralicious + at the last week (ripen) . that's their kelp/humic product. 

i wouldn't think stopping it for 1 week after using it all bloom and then all of sudden you get a big thc spike right before harvest?? way above what i know though.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 21, 2021)

dtcharneski said:


> FA helps the plant uptake fe and mg it acts as a chelater it more affects the ions that have to do with photosynthesis,


but do you think it would have a similar thc reduction as humic? they are more similar than different ( i think?)


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## Wastei (Feb 21, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> but do you think it would have a similar thc reduction as humic? they are more similar than different ( i think?)


They're still debating how they should be classified. They're all under Humic substances: humic acid , fulvic acid and humin.

They're formation is not well understood. Humates are hard to understand scientifically because of their complex molecular structure.


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## Wastei (Feb 21, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> but do you think it would have a similar thc reduction as humic? they are more similar than different ( i think?)


Fulvic acid promotes faster metabolism while Humic doesn't. Have a hard time believing fulvic would have any negative effect in flowering plants if you look what effects it has on humans.

I've read some studies regarding shilajit extracts, that's often +80% fulvic acid. So I have some understanding of where they source their materials and it's effects, I use it daily. Interesting stuff!


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## Rurumo (Feb 21, 2021)

Wastei said:


> Fulvic acid promotes faster metabolism while Humic doesn't. Have a hard time believing fulvic would have any negative effect in flowering plants if you look what effects it has on humans.
> 
> I've read some studies regarding shilajit extracts, that's often +80% fulvic acid. So I have some understanding of where they source their materials and it's effects, I use it daily. Interesting stuff!


The study noted a positive effect on nutrient uptake, just a negative effect on THC....which kind of makes sense. Healthy plants make big buds, but look at the stuff that increases THC-UV and various other stressors. I was surprised by their findings too and it's just one study, but I'm considering dropping fulvic now except for germination.


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## Rdubz (Feb 21, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> The study noted a positive effect on nutrient uptake, just a negative effect on THC....which kind of makes sense. Healthy plants make big buds, but look at the stuff that increases THC-UV and various other stressors. I was surprised by their findings too and it's just one study, but I'm considering dropping fulvic now except for germination.


I feel like it should still have positive effects on vegetative growth just drop it in 12/12 but then again I don't know as much as far as the chemistry behind it it it has any negative lasting effects after using but I feel like thats logical approach just what @waistie saying he intuitively stopped using during bud production so is this study just showing use all the way through entire life cycle and if that's the case I think another study would be appropriate to show stopping use during 12/12....


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Basically a plant either using its energy to produce mass or metabolites/ with one being sacrificed for the other, that's the balance we try to find high yield/high cannabinoids, the nutrients and light inputs(spectrum) we use all entice production of different compounds used by the plant and stored in the plant, so if anything makes the plant "grow faster"(HA/FA) its taking energy from the nutrient production(cannabinoids, terps etc), and vice versa. ie, uvb light creates stress, plant growth slows but trichrome production increases. Or kushman chiropractics or supper cropping. you stress the plant in response growth slows but auxin is produced faster and then boom explosive growth


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## Wastei (Feb 21, 2021)

dtcharneski said:


> Basically a plant either using its energy to produce mass or metabolites/ with one being sacrificed for the other, that's the balance we try to find high yield/high cannabinoids, the nutrients and light inputs(spectrum) we use all entice production of different compounds used by the plant and stored in the plant, so if anything makes the plant "grow faster"(HA/FA) its taking energy from the nutrient production(cannabinoids, terps etc), and vice versa. ie, uvb light creates stress, plant growth slows but trichrome production increases. Or kushman chiropractics or supper cropping. you stress the plant in response growth slows but auxin is produced faster and then boom explosive growth


It's an interesting read for sure. There's so many variables to give a clear answer and like I stated before it's just one study. What about if you were to introduce natural PGR's in kelp would you see the same results? Auxins and cytokinin a have synergistic effects with humates.

The study is really interesting but like all other it's not perfect. I would like to see a side by side with one clone getting kelp/humic from start to mid flower and the other clone completely without.

I would also like to see different extracts being used and know the extraction method to really know all the variables. There's different kinds of extracts, crude and filtered.

You need to know the extraction method, growing method (soil/hydro) and rate and type of application IMO.


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Wastei said:


> It's an interesting read for sure. There's so many variables to give a clear answer and like I stated before it's just one study. What about if you were to introduce natural PGR's in kelp would you see the same results? Auxins and cytokinin a have synergistic effects with humates.
> 
> The study is really interesting but like all other it's not perfect. I would like to see a side by side with one clone getting kelp/humic from start to mid flower and the other clone completely without.
> 
> ...


yes I agree they needed to broaden there test scope, I hate that most research papers seem to just super focus on just one aspect, just n uptake or k uptake etc,etc, even though its been shown its a multitude of variables involved and I would love to see a test done using a wide range of different inputs, strains, npk ratios, additives/microbes, light spectrums/intensities and see how everything correlates


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

Humic vs Fulvic Acids — Earthgreen Products


Humic and fulvic acids are both humic substances (along with humin). However, there are a few key differences that impact their benefits and how each are best applied.




www.earthgreen.com




.


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

dtcharneski said:


> Humic vs Fulvic Acids — Earthgreen Products
> 
> 
> Humic and fulvic acids are both humic substances (along with humin). However, there are a few key differences that impact their benefits and how each are best applied.
> ...


so HA makes nutrients available FA carries them 
HA contains N and P 
FA contains N
and FA has twice the oxygen content of HA


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## dtcharneski (Feb 21, 2021)

in this one they tested coco and fertilization rates/ nutrient ppms
over fertilization led to higher yield but less total cannabinoids








Optimal Rate of Organic Fertilizer during the Flowering Stage for Cannabis Grown in Two Coir-based Substrates


In the expanding North American medical cannabis industry, growers lack reliable and systematically investigated information on the horticultural management of their crops, especially with regard to nutrient management and growing substrates. To evaluate organic substrates and their optimal...




journals.ashs.org


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## radiant Rudy (Feb 23, 2021)

I read the humic acid piece about a year or so ago. I posted a few references to it other sites. No one was much interested.

Since then i admit i cut back on using humate products. Yet i wonder if this particular study might be somehow misleading. I checked into other medicinal and essential oil type plants and every study i saw detailed improved production of medicinal compounds. In basil, lavender, artemesia, fennel and others humates and proper nutrition elicited desirable outcomes.

Considering the dramatic loss of potency through humate use shown in that paper it is puzzling that humate use is little discussed and continues to be considered best practice in ag, horticulture, and high value medicinal plants.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 23, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> I read the humic acid piece about a year or so ago. I posted a few references to it other sites. No one was much interested.
> 
> Since then i admit i cut back on using humate products. Yet i wonder if this particular study might be somehow misleading. I checked into other medicinal and essential oil type plants and every study i saw detailed improved production of medicinal compounds. In basil, lavender, artemesia, fennel and others humates and proper nutrition elicited desirable outcomes.
> 
> Considering the dramatic loss of potency through humate use shown in that paper it is puzzling that humate use is little discussed and continues to be considered best practice in ag, horticulture, and high value medicinal plants.


i might just send Dr Faust an email( think that's his name) from BioAg. they are the copany that makes Ful-Power and other humic additives and see what he thinks.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 23, 2021)

Message sent to BioAg. will post reply here.


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## radiant Rudy (Feb 23, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> Message sent to BioAg. will post reply here.


I'll contact Sumo and/or AEA and ask if they are aware of the study. I doubt we are first to bring it to their attention. Very interested to get a response from humate producers, apostles, scientists.


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## rkymtnman (Feb 23, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> I'll contact Sumo and/or AEA and ask if they are aware of the study. I doubt we are first to bring it to their attention. Very interested to get a response from humate producers, apostles, scientists.


especially somebody with a Dr. title. lol. 

did you see Gritty up in Lake Tahoe?


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## Rurumo (Feb 23, 2021)

I have a crop two weeks into flower right now, so I cut out all humic/fulvic acid because of this.


radiant Rudy said:


> I'll contact Sumo and/or AEA and ask if they are aware of the study. I doubt we are first to bring it to their attention. Very interested to get a response from humate producers, apostles, scientists.


Oh gosh, they'll all be rabidly against this study since it's bad for business. I'm interested in the authors' hypothesis that different pathways are involved in this humic acid/thc lowering effect than in other plants that have shown an increase in essential oils/terpenes. Considering the overall quality of their research papers, and the fact that their other findings match up closely with what I've observed, I've stopped giving humic/fulvic acid to my plants in flower. I'll def keep it around for germination, cuttings, foliar sprays in veg, etc, but no more during flower for now.


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## radiant Rudy (Feb 23, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> especially somebody with a Dr. title. lol.
> 
> did you see Gritty up in Lake Tahoe?


Gritty was legit on that board right?
Pride in the 215!


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## radiant Rudy (Feb 24, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I have a crop two weeks into flower right now, so I cut out all humic/fulvic acid because of this.
> 
> Oh gosh, they'll all be rabidly against this study since it's bad for business. I'm interested in the authors' hypothesis that different pathways are involved in this humic acid/thc lowering effect than in other plants that have shown an increase in essential oils/terpenes. Considering the overall quality of their research papers, and the fact that their other findings match up closely with what I've observed, I've stopped giving humic/fulvic acid to my plants in flower. I'll def keep it around for germination, cuttings, foliar sprays in veg, etc, but no more during flower for now.


Message to URB 

Hey Guys,

Have you reviewed this study which details undesirable effects on cannabis thc values associated with humate application? If so I am most interested in your reaction.









Impact of N, P, K, and Humic Acid Supplementation on the Chemical Profile of Medical Cannabis (Cannabis sativa L)


Mineral nutrition is a major factor affecting plant growth and function. Increasing evidence supports the involvement of macro and micronutrients in secondary metabolism. The use of the appropriate nutritional measures including organic fertilizers, supplements, and biostimulants is therefore a...




www.frontiersin.org


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## dtcharneski (Feb 24, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I have a crop two weeks into flower right now, so I cut out all humic/fulvic acid because of this.
> 
> Oh gosh, they'll all be rabidly against this study since it's bad for business. I'm interested in the authors' hypothesis that different pathways are involved in this humic acid/thc lowering effect than in other plants that have shown an increase in essential oils/terpenes. Considering the overall quality of their research papers, and the fact that their other findings match up closely with what I've observed, I've stopped giving humic/fulvic acid to my plants in flower. I'll def keep it around for germination, cuttings, foliar sprays in veg, etc, but no more during flower for now.


did you get a chance to check out the paper i posted about thca causing cell death?? I think that could maybe be the reason HA is different in marijuana than other plants. other plants use calcium stores for senescence marijuana uses its own thc/cbca for senescence and pest/uv/stress so while humic helps the other plants and marijuana uptake nutrients better to facilitate growth i think that is bad for marijuana(mid-late flowering). The extra nutrients up taken from the humic still has to be processed and stored which the marijuana plant does, but like I stated earlier a plant must divide its energy between mass/nutrient production so if we give it more nutrients to process it will eat them them and use them, different nutrients carry different functions so the increased uptake means the increased production and storage in the area said nutrients are involved, as one of the earlier articles shown the plants will keep taken more and more nutes, and growing(to a limit) but higher nute levels lead to more mass at the sacrifice of secondary metabolites, I feel the plant is gonna always try to survive so it can produce the most fruit and reproduce etc, so it will process the extra nutes and grow so as to not die(nute burn ) sacrificing our precious cannabinoids and terps in the process. Hence why I and a lot of people feel lowering nutes through the end helps with a multitude of things. You gotta let the plant die naturally ... Sorry High AF hope that makes sense


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## Bill Dillows (Feb 27, 2021)

Humic acid is a long-chain heavy humate. It can cause kidney and liver problems in humans. It can be derived from byproducts of the coal and natural gas industry. It needs to be broken down further to become available to plants and is not soluble at acidic conditions necessary for plant growth.

Fulvic acid is a short-chain light humate. It is suitable for human and animal health. It can be chemically extracted from humic acid. It can also be found naturally in peat, shale, compost and river sediment and several other sources. It is soluble at ALL pH levels and is immediately available for plant or human health benefits as an nutrient chelator.


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## xtsho (Feb 27, 2021)

Well someone better tell the cannabis specific nutrient companies because most all of them have their own humic solution in a bottle they charge an arm and a leg for.


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## WintersBones (Feb 27, 2021)

Interesting stuff. From most of my reading and nutrient schedules I can think of (cocoforcanabis for sure) that I've checked out, the HA is only used in veg and cut out by early/mid bloom. I didn't understand why that was, this basically explains why. Cool.


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## Bill Dillows (Mar 1, 2021)

I did a little more searching and was able to track down the source of humic acid called "Brandt-uptake-12" used in the cannabis study. A partial description is as follows:

*Humic Acid*
Guaranteed Analysis Soluble Potash (K2O) .. . 3.0% Derived from potassium hydroxide. F76 ALSO CONTAINS NONPLANT FOOD INGREDIENT: 12% Humic Acid derived from *Leonardite Humic acid* analyzed by acid precipitation method. General Information BRANDT UPTAKE 12 may increase micronutrient uptake and is readily dispersed in most fertilizer or micronutrient products. *Rate Recommendations *This product can be applied any time during the crop cycle, from planting to harvest. *Foliar* *Application*: Apply 8-64 fl oz per 10-100 gallons of water as needed. *Fertigation*: Apply through irrigation systems at a rate of 1–2 gallons per acre per treatment. Repeat as needed.

The paper states that 200 mL/pot of a 1/10 dilution of humic acid is used as a daily treatment. This is in far access of the recommended amounts used in the field (1-2 gallons per acre of treatment- applied once (repeat as needed) during the growing season.) The humic acid treatment used in the study is overkill (much like over applying an NPK fertilizer would cause) causing a detrimental effect on plant growth and cannabinoid production


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## radiant Rudy (Mar 2, 2021)

@Bill Dillows this scientist (below) also references the possible over application of humate.





MESSAGE FROM Dr,. Sarah, PhD, chief soil scientist at MicraCulture. 



Hey Rudy,

Thanks for getting in touch and sharing this research. I had not seen this study before, so it is always nice to have new information brought to my attention.
We are so limited on the availability of scientifically sound studies on cannabinoids due to the classification of it as a restricted substance in so many parts of the world still. But it does seem to be improving, so that is encouraging.

Regarding your concern for humic acids in Plant Probiotics. First, yes we do add some humic acid, derived from Leonardite. We have found in our studies (and building on the heaps of peer reviewed published literature) that having it in our mixture increases the functioning of our microbes significantly. But it is really interesting that Bernstein et al found that it did have an effect on the cannabinoid content of THC! That is definitely concerning, and I am curious to see more data come out about this.
Although, honestly, I do not believe that if we were to replicate this experiment using the concentrations and application schedule we prescribe for Plant Probiotics (we suggest applying every 2 weeks or once a month and in this experiment they applied daily!), we would see any significant changes in cannabinoid content. I think drowning a plant in any substance would cause negative effects on it! Moderation is key!
And the professional growers that have worked Plant Probiotics into their growing regimen have only sent us praise on the effects on their cannabis - I would expect that would not be the case if there were significant negative effects from the HAs.
Additionally, the incredible number of studies showing the beneficial effects of including humic acid when growing plants other than cannabis further convinces me that it is worth including.

But I will keep my finger on the pulse of this to see if any further studies do come out or if these results are replicated. Very interesting!

Let me know if you have any questions about my off the cuff thoughts.

Take care Radiant Rudy,

Sarah


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## Rurumo (Mar 2, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> @Bill Dillows this scientist (below) also references the possible over application of humate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


awesome Rudy! Very cool she got back to you with a real response too.


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## rkymtnman (Mar 2, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> @Bill Dillows this scientist (below) also references the possible over application of humate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


nice! i have not received a reply from BioAg yet.


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## radiant Rudy (Mar 2, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> nice! i have not received a reply from BioAg yet.


I sent another message to URB and also went to BioAg's contact page and asked them too!



Rurumo said:


> awesome Rudy! Very cool she got back to you with a real response too.


Ya im gonna buy a lil inoculant from Doc Sarah. You can test it out for 15.99$ including shipping.

This is what i normally use. I apply at germination and again when potting up. This ia an other inoculant that uses himate.


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## rkymtnman (Mar 2, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> Ya im gonna buy a lil inoculant from Doc Sarah


you ever hear of this stuff? 








EM-1 Microbial Inoculant Soil Amendment


EM-1® is a ready to use organic liquid microbial soil conditioner that promotes healthy soil, plant growth, improves seed germination, strong root development, better nutrient absorption, plant quality and increased yields. Excellent for any gardener for any gardening project, large or small...




www.teraganix.com


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## radiant Rudy (Mar 2, 2021)

rkymtnman said:


> you ever hear of this stuff?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ya, i have heard of that product. I think they were in on the significance of microbes early on. Ive never used but from what ive come across that item has a good reputation and many users. 

Have you tried EM1?


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## rkymtnman (Mar 2, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> Ya, i have heard of that product. I think they were in on the significance of microbes early on. Ive never used but from what ive come across that item has a good reputation and many users.
> 
> Have you tried EM1?


i got a sample bottle somewhere many years ago. i used it out in my veggie g'house as like a pre-season "kickstart" to my beds. 
somebody on here a long time ago had a post of how to re-innoculate itself so you only need to buy 1 bottle.


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## Northwood (Mar 9, 2021)

Bill Dillows said:


> Fulvic acid is a short-chain light humate. It is suitable for human and animal health. It can be chemically extracted from humic acid. It can also be found naturally in peat, shale, compost and river sediment and several other sources


That's what I thought too. But recent research shows humic substances to be synthetic and do not exist in nature: http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/publ/Nature 528, 60-68, 2015 Lehmann.pdf

Damn them!


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## Rdubz (Mar 9, 2021)

Northwood said:


> That's what I thought too. But recent research shows humic substances to be synthetic and do not exist in nature: http://www.css.cornell.edu/faculty/lehmann/publ/Nature 528, 60-68, 2015 Lehmann.pdf
> 
> Damn them!


I guess I have to read more but I just don't see how it's synthetic???


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## Northwood (Mar 9, 2021)

Rdubz said:


> I guess I have to read more but I just don't see how it's synthetic???


Synthetic - meaning not existing naturally and instead created by humans. (According to the article published in Nature.)

More stuff on that here: https://www.gardenmyths.com/humus-does-not-exist-says-new-study/


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## Bill Dillows (Mar 10, 2021)

The article is from 2015 and was controversial at the time. Just like humus, black holes couldn't be seen with outdated technology, but we knew they existed. There has been a lot of humate science advancements since then. ISO and LAMAR testing are more accurate ways to quantify humates and are AOAC accepted standards now.


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## Rurumo (Mar 10, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> I sent another message to URB and also went to BioAg's contact page and asked them too!
> 
> 
> Ya im gonna buy a lil inoculant from Doc Sarah. You can test it out for 15.99$ including shipping.
> ...


I wasn't aware of that product, but I like it, it has some of the most studied strains of rhizobacteria. Where do you buy it Rudy?


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## Northwood (Mar 10, 2021)

Bill Dillows said:


> The article is from 2015 and was controversial at the time. Just like humus, black holes couldn't be seen with outdated technology, but we knew they existed. There has been a lot of humate science advancements since then. ISO and LAMAR testing are more accurate ways to quantify humates and are AOAC accepted standards now.


Lamar's method which predates the Nature article also uses NaOH as the step in initial extraction: https://d419f219-4382-415c-9bf0-6aecfe238506.filesusr.com/ugd/6831f1_83b86a2e3f8e4fa99e5aabaf82f177e3.pdf

Edit: Also Kleber & Lehmann are still at it in 2019: https://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.2134/jeq2019.01.0036


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## radiant Rudy (Mar 10, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I wasn't aware of that product, but I like it, it has some of the most studied strains of rhizobacteria. Where do you buy it Rudy?


I think i got the tainio product from AEA site. Let me know if you cant find it.

More stuff on that here: https://www.gardenmyths.com/humus-does-not-exist-says-new-study/
[/QUOTE]


Northwood said:


> Synthetic - meaning not existing naturally and instead created by humans. (According to the article published in Nature.)
> 
> More stuff on that here: https://www.gardenmyths.com/humus-does-not-exist-says-new-study/


*Garden myths is ridiculously bloated with contrarian, attention whoring*


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## Northwood (Mar 10, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> *Garden myths is ridiculously bloated with contrarian, attenton whoring*


LMAO okay, you can choose to stick to the primary scientific publications then if you like instead. 

I've got no stake in the matter one way or the other, but I do feel it's an interesting area of discussion. Perhaps the 18th century notion of organic material decay isn't the end of it.


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## radiant Rudy (Mar 10, 2021)

The (Bio)Chemistry of Soil Humus and Humic Substances: Why Is the “New View” Still Considered Novel After More Than 80 Years?


Three years ago, a novel “soil continuum model” was proposed, in which soil organic matter was suggested to be of heterogeneous composition and to consist of a continuum of organic fragments of all sizes. A search of the literature reveals that this model is identical to several similar...




www.frontiersin.org






In all the uproar that followed the publication of Lehmann and Kleber's (2015) article, little attention unfortunately seems to have been devoted to the chemical nature and dynamics of humic substances, making it likely that we are going to witness once again what Jenny (1961), writing about soil acidity, once referred to sarcastically as a “merry-go-round”: There is a good chance that another _Science_ or _Nature_ article will be published in about 2025, extolling anew Waksman's perpetually “emergent” perspective on soil humus. However, from a more optimistic perspective, the soil science community may yet decide to take up Lehmann and Kleber's research agenda and, critically, note that the tools needed to answer their call and improve our understanding of the dynamics of soil organic matter at the microscale already exist, indeed have been available for a decade, but have remained largely unused.


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## radiant Rudy (Mar 10, 2021)

Northwood said:


> LMAO okay, you can choose to stick to the primary scientific publications then if you like instead.
> 
> I've got no stake in the matter one way or the other, but I do feel it's an interesting area of discussion. Perhaps the 18th century notion of organic material decay isn't the end of it.


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## Dreminen169 (Mar 10, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> Ya, i have heard of that product. I think they were in on the significance of microbes early on. Ive never used but from what ive come across that item has a good reputation and many users.
> 
> Have you tried EM1?


Em-1 is great stuff. They use it for a number of different applications including for the smell of sewage.
It’s especially great if your soil has gone anaerobic. It will out compete and kill off the bad bacteria. It’s actually very simple and easy to make on your own with rice & brown sugar known as Lacto Bacillus or LABS! It’s also healthy & good for you to drink  

Great Microbial Treatment for all plants (flowers, veggies, trees, etc.), compost, and soils.
Improves Soil Structure and Drainage
Bioremediation Bacteria Eliminates Foul Odors In The Home (Pets, Smoke, Garbage, Drains, Paint, etc.)
Improves Water Quality In Aquariums, Ponds and Rivers
Effective Soil Conditioner


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## Bill Dillows (Mar 10, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Lamar's method which predates the Nature article also uses NaOH as the step in initial extraction: https://d419f219-4382-415c-9bf0-6aecfe238506.filesusr.com/ugd/6831f1_83b86a2e3f8e4fa99e5aabaf82f177e3.pdf
> 
> Edit: Also Kleber & Lehmann are still at it in 2019: https://acsess.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.2134/jeq2019.01.0036


You can use NAOH or hydrogen peroxide to create humates from humin. It can also be done naturally through oxidation or microbial breakdown. Shale, compost and river sediment are all natural sources of humates without any extraction.


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## Northwood (Mar 10, 2021)

Bill Dillows said:


> You can use NAOH or hydrogen peroxide to create humates from humin. It can also be done naturally through oxidation or microbial breakdown. Shale, compost and river sediment are all natural sources of humates without any extraction.


Now I'm confused. Isn't hydrogen peroxide used to oxidize the coal prior to humic acid extraction with either NAOH or KOH? For example: https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1757-899X/162/1/012025/pdf

Anyway, I rather enjoyed this March 2021 "letter to the editor" in response to Lehmann and Kleber by Jean-François Ponge. It goes out of its way not to ruffle the feathers of traditional soil scientists but remains somewhat balanced. Likely not peer reviewed, but it's an interesting take on the "issue": https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337495687_Humus_dark_side_of_life_or_intractable_'aether'


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## Northwood (Mar 10, 2021)

radiant Rudy said:


> The (Bio)Chemistry of Soil Humus and Humic Substances: Why Is the “New View” Still Considered Novel After More Than 80 Years?
> 
> 
> Three years ago, a novel “soil continuum model” was proposed, in which soil organic matter was suggested to be of heterogeneous composition and to consist of a continuum of organic fragments of all sizes. A search of the literature reveals that this model is identical to several similar...
> ...


Yeah, I know that one. And you do realize that's not a critique of Lehmann and Kleber's 2015 article right? It's a perspective article that basically says Lehmann & Kleber's ideas aren't novel, and blame the lack of a more interdisciplinary approach to understanding the fate of soil organic matter that have at least partly held back the science between Waksman's 1936 paper up until a handful of recent papers - most notably that of Lehmann and Kleblers:

From the first part of the article you posted:
_"Three years ago, a novel “soil continuum model” was proposed, in which soil organic matter was suggested to be of heterogeneous composition and to consist of a continuum of organic fragments of all sizes. A search of the literature reveals that this model is identical to several similar conceptualizations proposed about 15 years ago, and that it corresponds closely with the description of humic substances given in Waksman's (1936) remarkably thorough book on the topic, which also emphasized the intimate connections existing between humic substances and soil microorganisms. Several historical reasons, reviewed in this Perspective article, may explain why Waksman's viewpoint might still be considered novel more than 80 years later. Here we argue that the key reason for the agonizingly slow rate of progress in the field is linked to the extreme compartmentalization of research and education in soil science, which has been organized along distinct subdisciplines, with the result that interdisciplinary efforts that are desperately needed to understand the dynamics of soil humic substances are very hard to launch."_

I tend to agree with the paper you linked to. Soil science is too compartmentalized. Hopefully the authors are wrong that it will take until 2025 for another paper to build upon Waksman's work again.


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## Rip VanStinkle (Apr 26, 2021)

Looks like Urb never contacted you back? Way to stand behind yer products


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## toomp (Mar 5, 2022)

This was a good read
Alot of ways to spin it but Im saving the humics for the fruits and veggies


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## PadawanWarrior (Mar 5, 2022)

I'm not biting.


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## Cannabisco (May 7, 2022)

I use HA seldomly , mostly in teas or because it's included in a few products.. I don't seek humic acids out. 
I do use alot more supplemental FA as foliar or root drench in veg. I think in small doses it could still be used as a beneficial chelator to some effect. I buy the water soluble 90% FA off Amazon on the cheap. My opinion after reading studies is that it's better suited for veg., when in preflower I taper down already because it's simply not needed anymore. That's when I start supplementing cytokinins (cytoplus) for a cpl weeks and using PSB Phosphorus Solubilizing Bacterial& KSB Potassium solubilizing bacteria to my base & or teas. Alfalfa- triacontanol & Seaweed products work well too. I find myself using them every other watering at low doses works nicely, same for supplementing magnesium & sulfur with my "PK" boost. 
I'm very interested if brassinosteroid brassinolide would be helpful in flower too.


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