# The 25sft rule of Prop 19 - How Much Can I Really Grow?



## tc1 (Sep 26, 2010)

Let's first be clear ...

Prop 19 states perfectly clear that it is a 25 square foot area. Most people come to the common conclusion of 5x5 because it's the simplest calculation with regarding to the square footage. But under Prop 19 your grow space design can be ANY measurements which equates to a 25sft surface area or less.


So let's use 5 gallon buckets as our grow medium shall we? Plenty of room to grow big beautiful buds in a 5 gallon container. (As this site very well proves)

The diameter of a 5 gallon bucket is generally between 11.5" and 12". Let's pick 12" for the sake of high balling our figures. That makes a radius of a 5 gallon bucket 6" which in return gives us a surface area of 0.785 square feet.

Now that we know our square footage for each bucket. We now know we can fit 31 5 gallon buckets (24.335 square feet) in our grow area. "But what about a veg chamber?" you say ... Good point.

Let's decide to keep a veg chamber for our moms and clones .... Let's put a chamber that is 2 feet deep, 2 feet wide, and 6 feet tall in our grow. This allows us to keep anywhere between 4 to 10 mothers and dozens upon dozens of clones in circulation depending on the size of the medium for our mothers and the design of our chamber. In this example our chamber will hold 5 mothers in 3.5 gallon buckets along with room for clones to begin their vegetative growth. The chamber will have an upper rack full of cuttings as well.

Now that we've added the chamber ... We only have 21 square feet left. This gives us room for 26 5 gallon buckets. Interesting ... 


Ok ... so now we get out our kilowatt HPS lights and begin doing our thing. A couple months later we have returned to find 26 fully matured plants of sticky icky. Now maybe we aren't great growers .. maybe we are. 

So let's completely and UTTERLY low ball our grow and say we got 2 ounces per plant. (2 ounces .. with multiple kilowatts of light? ouch ... we need to get better at this whole growing thing). 2 ounces x 26 plants = 52 ounces of marijuana. 

That equates to *3.25 pounds* of marijuana. 3 1/4 pounds every 3-4 months folks.

A year later we've really got the green thumb and getting better (thanks rollitup!).
Now we're pulling 4-6 ounces per plant.

We now have anywhere from *6.5 pounds* to *9.75 pounds* of marijuana every 3-4 months.



I'd say 25 square feet is plenty of room to grow marijuana wouldn't you? 

If you aren't voting YES on Prop 19 because of the "25 square feet rule" ... please reconsider.
Some of us are unwilling to risk our families in order to grow marijuana illegally. So help make it legal.


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## calibob (Sep 26, 2010)

26 plants in 25sq ft won't yield 2 oz per. Cut the number of plants and you have a shot at it. To get 9 lb per cycle you are going to need more than 25 sq ft.


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## tc1 (Sep 26, 2010)

calibob said:


> 26 plants in 25sq ft won't yield 2 oz per. Cut the number of plants and you have a shot at it. To get 9 lb per cycle you are going to need more than 25 sq ft.


If you can't get 2 ounces per plant using 5 gallon buckets and no light restrictions ... there's something wrong.


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## tc1 (Sep 26, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> Wow really??? A plant growing in a 5 gallon bucket takes up a lot more room than the foot print of the bucket...and calculating the area of a circle and then thinking you can just divide 25 sq ft does not take into account the space between the circles they take up a sq ft...but the canopy is not the same as the foot print of the pot...
> 
> Thanks Dick for pretending to legalize MJ while creating new Canna Crimes I hope he gets his karma Oakland style!!!


What part of square footage don't you understand? Vertical footprint of the plant makes no difference.

You can fit 26 5 gallon buckets and a 2x2x6 veg cab in a 25 square foot room .... PERIOD


Here's a thought ... instead of acting like an interwebz tough guy ... take a math refresher course first. While you're at it you might want to take a class on civility.

24.41 square feet < 25 square feet 
Pretty simple math with regards to surface area.


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## Hayduke (Sep 26, 2010)

tc1 said:


> What part of square footage don't you understand? Vertical footprint of the plant makes no difference.
> 
> You can fit 26 5 gallon buckets and a 2x2x6 veg cab in a 25 square foot room .... PERIOD
> 
> ...


No you cant! If they were square then yes you could...the diameter of the bucket is 12"

But who cares...why 25???


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## tc1 (Sep 26, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> No you cant! If they were square then yes you could...the diameter of the bucket is 12"
> 
> But who cares...why 25???


It's an example. You could grow 1 plant in a 25 square foot area if you wished.
Point being, you can easily grow POUNDS of marijuana in a 25 square foot grow room.

You can fit a 12" diameter pot in a 1 square foot area.


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## tc1 (Sep 26, 2010)

And if you think you can't get 2 ounces per plant just because your growing a SOG you must not pay much attention to the Indoor Growing section of this board.

"Minimal penetration"? Exactly what kind of light penetration do we need if we're using kilowatt hids in a large SOG setup? We're interested in growing monster colas from clones ... not popcorn side branches.

You know ... something like this



(gotta love google images)


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## toquer (Sep 26, 2010)

this is a very interesting point. i've read the prop and it doesn't really specify how the 25sqft have to be arranged. i've got 2 plants that take up more than 25 sqft. apx 72sqft for just the 2 plants. but i've also got 16 plants in 11"x11" pots. they take up my 25sqft grow tent in the evening for their dark cycle. so assuming i veg and mother offsite i can realistically have 29.76 pots growing and take up a footprint of less than 25sqft. any attorneys online want to verify that this can be done legally? i mean it doesn't matter to me one way or another as prop 215 says i can have whatever i need for my medical problems. interesting...


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## veggiegardener (Sep 26, 2010)

Anyone interested in controlling your grow will insist the plants stay within the 25 square feet, including all branches and leaves.

An expert grower, and I mean a real master of the art can get 2 ounces per square foot, assuming he provides a minimum of 100 watts per sq. ft, and CO2.

Anything less won't get that yield, and that is only for high yielding strains.

Now, can you keep your 25 sq. ft. cool, with 3 1000w lamps providing light?

My record yield in a greenhouse was 58 grams per sq. ft, so I know it can be done.

The question is, can YOU do it?

Consistently?

Prop 19 is a bogus piece of work that will screw up everything the medical community has achieved in the last 14 years.

I've only seen one person turned down for a recc, and only because he didn't even tell the doctor he had trouble sleeping.

A really stupid kid.

I've taken people ranging in age from 18 to 81 to get their recommendations with no problem. All I told them was to be truthful about their need to use Cannabis.

There are a lot of young people who suffer from sleep disorders due to stress associated with life in America.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Prop 215 = Medical
Prop 19 = Recreational

Section 7 of Prop 19:
_
7. Ensure that if a city decides not to tax and regulate the sale of cannabis, that buying and selling cannabis within that city&#8217;s limits remain illegal, but that the city&#8217;s citizens still have the right to possess and consume small amounts, *except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5* and 11362.7 through 11362.9._

*11362.5 = Prop 215*

Section 8 of Prop 19:

_8. Ensure that if a city decides it does want to tax and regulate the buying and selling of cannabis (to and from adults only), that a strictly controlled legal system is implemented to oversee and regulate cultivation, distribution, and sales, and that the city will have control over how and how much cannabis can be bought and sold, *except as permitted under Health and Safety Sections 11362.5 *and 11362.7 through 11362.9._

*11362.5* *= Prop 215*


Stop perpetuating the lie that Prop 19 effects medical marijuana patients. It does not.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Prop 215 = Medical
> Prop 19 = Recreational
> 
> Section 7 of Prop 19:
> ...


I've said it in other threads, yet you continue lying.

The 25 sq. ft. limit extends to everyone, because prop 215 didn't specify cultivation area. Only numbers, which have since been overturned.

You are willfully lying, to what purpose? Money?

Certainly.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> I've said it in other threads, yet you continue lying.
> 
> The 25 sq. ft. limit extends to everyone, because prop 215 didn't specify cultivation area. Only numbers, which have since been overturned.
> 
> ...




Don't accuse me of lying when you yourself are sitting here telling people Prop 19 mentions nothing about legalization.
How dense and obtuse must you be to continue making that argument?

The FIRST friggin sentence of Prop 19 under Title and Summary states: "*Changes California Law to Legalize Marijuana and Allow It to Be Regulated and Taxed. Initiative Statute."

*But yeah ... you keep telling people it doesn't mention legalization.

Keep telling people the "Lawful possession, cultivation, and transportation of marijuana" does not mean legalization.


You have been proven a liar and propagandist.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

The "summary" carries no weight unless supported in the following text.

This was written by lawyers, remember?


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

A good comparison would be the laws governing gun possession. 

Constitutionally we should be able to carry a concealed weapon, like any other honest citizen.

Practically speaking, how many people can actually carry a gun, even out in plain site?

We have "the right to bear arms" but in truth, only the police and military can legally carry firearms in a populated area.

They might let you keep guns in your home, but only under lock and key. In some places the restrictions are down right silly.

Tell us how you can get 3.25 pounds of weed in your 25 foot garden?


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Don't accuse me of lying when you yourself are sitting here telling people Prop 19 mentions nothing about legalization.
> How dense and obtuse must you be to continue making that argument?
> 
> The FIRST friggin sentence of Prop 19 under Title and Summary states: "*Changes California Law to Legalize Marijuana and Allow It to Be Regulated and Taxed. Initiative Statute."
> ...


Who's paying you to be here?

You seem to have no reason other than to hype Prop. 19.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

_
Section 3: *Lawful Activities*
Article 5 of Chapter 5 of Division 10 of the Health and Safety Code, commencing with section 11300 is added to read:
Section 11300: Personal Regulation and Controls
(a) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, *it is lawful* and shall not be a public offense under California law for any person 21 years of age or older to:
(i) Personally *possess, process, share, or transport* *not more than one ounce of cannabis*, solely for that individual&#8217;s personal consumption, and not for sale._

_(ii) *Cultivate*, on private property by the owner, lawful occupant, or other lawful resident or guest of the private property owner or lawful occupant, cannabis plants for personal consumption only, in an area of not more than twenty-five square feet per private residence or, in the absence of any residence, the parcel. Cultivation on leased or rented property may be subject to approval from the owner of the property. Provided that, nothing in this section shall permit unlawful or unlicensed cultivation of cannabis on any public lands._

_(iii)* Possess* on the premises where grown the living and harvested plants and results of any harvest and processing of plants lawfully cultivated pursuant to section 11300(a)(ii), for personal consumption._
_
(iv) * Possess* objects, items, tools, equipment, products and materials associated with activities permitted under this subsection.




_*Yawn* No one listen to veggie. He thinks something being lawful means it's illegal.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

UMMM....

THANK YOU!

You even put it in BOLD! You get to grow a WHOLE OUNCE!

"_) Personally *possess, process, share, or transport* *not more than one ounce of cannabis*, _"

Yup!

You're right!

It *SAYS *legal.

You actually read something!

Way to go!

Now read a bit more, and try to see WHY I'm against this piece of trash.

Even your fellow(albeit more educated) supporters point out that the language is muddy, and "doesn't mean what it says".

Prop 19 is bad law and should be defeated.

Especially if we want to avoid another decade in limbo, while the courts hash things out.

This thing amounts to a huge pay day for trial attorneys.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> UMMM....
> 
> THANK YOU!
> 
> ...



Grow an ounce? What the hell are you talking about?

_(ii) Cultivate, on private property by the owner, lawful occupant, or other lawful resident or guest of the private property owner or lawful occupant, cannabis plants for personal consumption only, in an area of not more than twenty-five square feet per private residence or, in the absence of any residence, the parcel. Cultivation on leased or rented property may be subject to approval from the owner of the property. Provided that, nothing in this section shall permit unlawful or unlicensed cultivation of cannabis on any public lands.

(iii) Possess on the premises where grown the living and harvested plants and results of any harvest and processing of plants lawfully cultivated pursuant to section 11300(a)(ii), for personal consumption._
_*
You can grow as much marijuana as you can fit in a 25 foot square foot area. You can store the harvested marijuana on the premises. No mention of plant or weight limits.

*(b) living and harvested cannabis plants shall be assessed by square footage, not by weight in determining the amounts set forth in section 11300(a);_


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

As soon as it stops growing, it is subject to the ounce limit.

Think it through!


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## Hayduke (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> [/B](b) living and harvested cannabis plants shall be assessed by square footage, not by weight in determining the amounts set forth in section 11300(a);[/I]


Who will do this assessing??? Pot friendly dudes??? Or the Judge?

Why 25sq feet??? Per parcel..not per person??? Who does this protect???? The citizenry from crazed recreational smokers who grew too much??? Or Dick Lee and the like who are hoping to cash in???

And yeah...this seems to be your only RIU traffic...and your signature seemed pretty spammy...I bet you thinking about making some coin off this huh????


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> As soon as it stops growing, it is subject to the ounce limit.
> 
> Think it through!


 _(b) living and *harvested cannabis plants shall be assessed by square footage, not by weight* in determining the amounts set forth in section 11300(a);_

Stop the lies.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

tc1 said:


> _(b) living and *harvested cannabis plants shall be assessed by square footage, not by weight* in determining the amounts set forth in section 11300(a);_
> 
> Stop the lies.


Do you know the difference between a "harvested plant" and "finished buds"?

The second you start trimming, you are subject to the one oz limit.

Do you understand?


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> Who will do this assessing??? Pot friendly dudes??? Or the Judge?
> 
> Why 25sq feet??? Per parcel..not per person??? Who does this protect???? The citizenry from crazed recreational smokers who grew too much??? Or Dick Lee and the like who are hoping to cash in???
> 
> And yeah...this seems to be your only RIU traffic...and your signature seemed pretty spammy...I bet you thinking about making some coin off this huh????



I don't know why 25 square feet. I guess the authors of the bill figured 25 square feet is more than enough to grow marijuana for recreational use in a single home. (I tend to agree)

It protects every adult 21 years of age or older.

Like I've said ... I don't make a dime from ANYTHING marijuana related. That link on my signature costs ME MONEY to run. Do you see a SINGLE ad? I know I sure don't. Failed attempt to defame my character ... If that's all you got, might as well just ignore my thread.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> Do you know the difference between a "harvested plant" and "finished buds"?
> 
> The second you start trimming, you are subject to the one oz limit.
> 
> Do you understand?


Yes ... because all current legislation on marijuana uses the term "finished buds" Give me a break ... Harvested marijuana is marijuana that has been harvested and ready for consumption. Just like harvested corn is corn ready to be consumed.


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

It say "living and harvested *plants."

*Once you begin trimming, it isn't a plant, anymore.

Maybe you think this is a stretch?

There are many hundreds of thousands of people with records because of such "stretches".


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> It say "living and harvested *plants."
> 
> **Once you begin trimming, it isn't a plant, anymore*.
> 
> ...



According to Prop 19 it is ....
_
(iii) For purposes of section 11300(a)(ii) &#8220;cannabis plant&#8221; means all parts of a living Cannabis plant.
(iv) In determining whether an amount of cannabis is or is not in excess of the amounts permitted by this Act, the following shall apply:
(a) only the active amount of the cannabis in an edible cannabis product shall be included;_
_(b) living and harvested cannabis plants shall be assessed by square footage, not by weight in determining the amounts set forth in section 11300(a);
_
According Prop 19 ... the active amount of CANNABIS INSIDE an EDIBLE is still considered "cannabis plant". Notice how they say LIVING and HARVESTED cannabis plant?

Under Prop 19 .... harvested marijuana is considered any marijuana which has been cut down and no longer living.

For someone who talks about Prop 19 so much, you sure don't act like you've read it. (or at least comprehend it).


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## veggiegardener (Sep 27, 2010)

So.....

How many brownies to the square foot?

Once it isn't a part of a greater whole, the bud will be subject to the one ounce limitation.

You really are a failure.

You must believe that I want to be convinced that prop 19 won't effect my situation and those of all other medical patients and gardeners. I WANT to be convinced!

Nobody has yet addressed how the Justice System will interpret 19 and the piles of bad laws that will pop up in each jurisdiction.

One thing lacking in younger generations is foresight.

You need to be able to think ahead, or live forever with failure.

Experience is part of equation, but trust is also important.

My fears are sincere.

I believe Prop 19 might actually be a financial opportunity for me, but the possible downside makes Prop 19 too dangerous to support.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> So.....
> 
> How many brownies to the square foot?
> 
> ...


How so? I thought you said 25 square feet isn't enough space for you to grow medication? So how would you profit from Prop 19? Remember? You said that if Prop 19 passes you want someone to give you the $1,000 *you lose* because you won't be able to grow enough marijuana .... 

Once again caught up in your own web of twisted logic and lies.

Once again resorting to name calling and mindless ranting when the facts don't favor your position.


_
(Insert your illogical, hate-filled, fear mongering reply)_


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## Hayduke (Sep 27, 2010)

So do you really think that Dick Lee...who grows pot for a living...REALLY thinks that 25sqft of grow space, not per person but per residence or parcel is enough??? If it is being legalized...why are they limiting my consumption...There is absolutely no limit on the amount of wine that I can produce in my own home.

Remember Dick grows for a living...he knows how much space an experienced grower with unlimited funds needs and he also knows that most people do not have the experience or funds to maximize 25sqft...he knows that 1 outdoor plant could take the majority of the 25 and that that 1 plant is not enough for a year...This is NOT an accident, and it is NOT what was thought of as "enough"..quite the opposite!

Dick has spent a lot of money getting this crap on the ballot and he did NOT do it cuz he is a cool dude and thinks MJ should be legal. And this does not even address the additional crimes created or the lack of expungement.

I want pot to be legal...I have wanted this since before most of those here voting yes have been alive. Our concerns are real. This is about money and keeping MJ quasi illegal. 

This Dick wants to make me casually smoking in my own home without hiding like a meth head not only illegal, but in real risk of a FUCKING FELONY. This is so wrong...and again WHY did DICK do this???

Certainly not because he wants to end prohibition...not only is it not illegal to drink in front of your kids or anyone else kids...but it is damned American...Baseball, apple pie, Chevrolet and bud.

People think that this will end good...The cali senate took time away from balancing the budget so that teachers did not have to be fired and state employees would get actual money instead of IOU's to pen SB 420 to try to control MJ that was destined for the sick...Not only did they do this to limit access but they did it in direct violation of the State Constitution as ruled by the Ca Supreme Court in Jan '10...now this is being given to LOCAL Yokal part time wannabe control nuts??? Sure it will work splendid for the City of Oakland, Alameda County and Dick Lee...but we are gonna be buying his commercial crap all over the state as the NIMBY's JUST SAY NO!


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> So do you really think that Dick Lee...who grows pot for a living...REALLY thinks that 25sqft of grow space, not per person but per residence or parcel is enough??? If it is being legalized...why are they limiting my consumption...*There is absolutely no limit on the amount of wine that I can produce in my own home.
> *
> Remember Dick grows for a living...he knows how much space an experienced grower with unlimited funds needs and he also knows that most people do not have the experience or funds to maximize 25sqft...he knows that 1 outdoor plant could take the majority of the 25 and that that 1 plant is not enough for a year...This is NOT an accident, and it is NOT what was thought of as "enough"..quite the opposite!
> 
> ...



Yes there is .... Almost every state (if not all) have a limit on how many gallons of wine you can make and store before you are required to purchase a liquor license. (This can be different county by county)

Prop 19 allows you to LAWFULLY possess, cultivate, and smoke marijuana in your own home. It also allows you to smoke marijuana in licensed "bud bars". No felony under Prop 19 ... it wouldn't be lawful otherwise.

Prop 19 does not regulate the commercial sale aspect of marijuana. Prop 19 leaves it all up to the city to decide how they wish to commercialize and tax marijuana. If you don't like how your city is handling commercial regulation ... call your closest NORML chapter and get in the face of your local politicians.

I assure you the local politicians will listen quicker than state or federal officials. This part of Prop 19 is invaluable because it gives people like you and me the ability to have our voices heard much louder with regards to marijuana reform. (local government vs state or federal)


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## Hayduke (Sep 27, 2010)

I stand corrected...I brewed beer for a couple of years and know about the 100 gallon limit, but for some reason though wine was higher...

I usually brewed my 100 gallons but unless the ATF was checking brew logs, there is really no way to enforce...MANY good brewers exceed this by a lot, due to the popularity of their brews. Even with 100 gallons, you are pretty much brewing all the time unless you make larger than the standard 5-10 gallon batch.


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## tc1 (Sep 27, 2010)

lol ... no biggie.

At least you're willing to admit and correct a mistake. (brain farts happen to us all)
Man ... I gotta get to bed for work. (5 hours... yikes!)

Peace and Pot!


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## mrFancyPlants (Sep 28, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> I stand corrected...I brewed beer for a couple of years and know about the 100 gallon limit, but for some reason though wine was higher...
> 
> I usually brewed my 100 gallons but unless the ATF was checking brew logs, there is really no way to enforce...MANY good brewers exceed this by a lot, due to the popularity of their brews. Even with 100 gallons, you are pretty much brewing all the time unless you make larger than the standard 5-10 gallon batch.


Same logic applies to pot. You can(and a whole fucking lot of people will) grow as much as you want - just don't get caught! 

It's also going to be a loooooot easier to transport, since - GUESS WHAT??? THEY CAN'T USE A FUCKING DRUG DOG TO JUSTIFY A SEARCH! Think about it - if it's legal to transport an ounce, every police dog in CA will need retraining to avoid alerting on it.

Also - I'm a fucking growtard and I can pull 20 oz easily off 4x4'(3x3' tray) with 600W and no CO2. 5x5 is enough for most REC users(and their friends).


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## Hayduke (Sep 28, 2010)

Hey now!

I want to use the SUN!!!! Grow setups are pricey...especially if you do not sell to cover the electricity...and I can barely afford the 4 hunny! 

And brewing a bit too much not only does not mandate jail, is over looked...it's beer...you brew your own?? that's cool...I didn't know you could actually do that!!!...But 100sqft in the back yard and you're a drug dealer!!! BS this is about a few people who will be able to afford commercial licenses keeping customers one way or another...it's a scam with the novelty of buying a bag at the quikee mart held out as bait.

The dogs will be fine...we need to get these young ethnic men into the system early...now the Jack Herrer Initiative addresses this and would make cannabis detection near worthless outside of schools in Cali.


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## mccumcumber (Sep 29, 2010)

Let's say, hypothetically of course, that you design a grow room that 5x5x30 or something ridiculously tall like that. Since there is no height restriction could you build a system that has plants hanging every few feet? Since they don't give a cubic dimension for the limit I thought that this would be a funny loophole. I might be, hypothetically of course, moving into a very tall Victorian house pretty soon so I could post some funny looking grow journals if I could legally get away with this.


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## mccumcumber (Sep 29, 2010)

I've noticed tc1 is getting a lot of bashing because of some weird uncertainties. If you have your card you can still grow as much as your doctor says you can and still hold the half pound, or more, if your doctor says you can. I don't understand why people are arguing that prop 19 takes that away... if anything, it lets you carry another ounce and lets you legally grow in another 5x5 area. There really is no downside other than the fact that Marlboro and Camel are probably gonna buy shit tons of land in California and put a lot of street assholes out of business by producing cheap B buds. This bill is just going to make mexi and B buds way more common and some nice, tasty, A buds VERY hard to find. So if you're decent at growing and already have your card this proposition does not effect you. If you're growing without your card anyway it makes it slightly more legal for you. I don't know who the fuck started the rumor that this takes away prop 215 privileges (probably some street dealer assholes), but this really needs to stop. As a citizen of California, I know that our state is better than every other state, cause we kick ass. Lets start the trend of legalizing marijuana for recreation so other states follow and don't suck so bad.


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## tc1 (Sep 29, 2010)

mccumcumber said:


> Let's say, hypothetically of course, that you design a grow room that 5x5x30 or something ridiculously tall like that. Since there is no height restriction could you build a system that has plants hanging every few feet? Since they don't give a cubic dimension for the limit I thought that this would be a funny loophole. I might be, hypothetically of course, moving into a very tall Victorian house pretty soon so I could post some funny looking grow journals if I could legally get away with this.


Indeed .... you can have a grow room design which places plants vertically to take advantage of the lack of height restrictions.

The possibilities are endless given a little bit of thinking and/or creativity. But seriously, even if you don't grow vertical ...25 square feet should be plenty of room for recreational use.


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## tc1 (Sep 29, 2010)

mccumcumber said:


> I've noticed tc1 is getting a lot of bashing because of some weird uncertainties. If you have your card you can still grow as much as your doctor says you can and still hold the half pound, or more, if your doctor says you can. I don't understand why people are arguing that prop 19 takes that away... if anything, it lets you carry another ounce and lets you legally grow in another 5x5 area. There really is no downside other than the fact that Marlboro and Camel are probably gonna buy shit tons of land in California and put a lot of street assholes out of business by producing cheap B buds. This bill is just going to make mexi and B buds way more common and some nice, tasty, A buds VERY hard to find. So if you're decent at growing and already have your card this proposition does not effect you. If you're growing without your card anyway it makes it slightly more legal for you. I don't know who the fuck started the rumor that this takes away prop 215 privileges (probably some street dealer assholes), but this really needs to stop. As a citizen of California, I know that our state is better than every other state, cause we kick ass. Lets start the trend of legalizing marijuana for recreation so other states follow and don't suck so bad.



I'm getting flack because some of these people feel they risk to lose something if Prop 19 passes. Self-preservation over the greater good.

The whole "tobacco companies have bought land in Cali for growing pot" is a myth and they've even come out publicly and said this. They've already got the government breathing down their necks ... getting in the marijuana business would be a slap in the face to the feds .... not gonna happen. Not to mention the tobacco industry continues to poor money into prohibition. 

When Prop 19 passes ... good weed will be available everywhere. (It already is, you just have to know the right people because its illegal or be medical)


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## Hayduke (Sep 30, 2010)

tc1 said:


> When Prop 19 passes ... good weed will be available everywhere. (It already is, you just have to know the right people because its illegal or be medical)


It already is (tax free)...so much so that I do not even know where I could get Mexican schwag, and I live 40 miles from Mexico...so much for the BS about the Cartels and pot...I'm sure this myth is just used to calm the masses into thinking that Heroin, meth and coke are a side business to the Cartels main money maker...bulky, heavy, cheap pot 

Prop 19 will not change the availability of good weed. but it may have to be obtained illegally...no biggie.

I am very concerned about the new crimes created especially the one that makes me a felon in my own home for smoking a plant in the presence of family member(s) who have not reached the arbitrary age for my crime to be reduced. It is also disappointing that Dick did nothing for those wrongfully jailed for cannabis.


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Sep 30, 2010)

This bill is bullshit. No one is against legalization here they are against this particular bill. There are other bills that have been written they just aren't being voted on yet. For all of the people saying 25 sq. ft. is enough room for personal consumption who are you to say what one person can consume? As for the vertical grow solution, this can be done but it really only works with hydro. People who want this bill passed are selfish and only think about themselves. Whatever suits you, right? It's good enough for you why should you care if it doesn't benefit others? For the claims of the OP you're retarded: if you thing you can fit 26 mature plants in 5 gallon buckets in a 5x5 area, then you obviously don't have much experience. Your mathematics are flawed and you don't take all of the variables into consideration. That being said I bet this bill gets passed simply because the uneducated simple minded out number the educated thoughtful people in this country. While I'm all for democracy the majority will never be right simply because the majority of people are not educated and informed enough to make a responsible decision for every matter.

Why are all you people for this bill when their are better bill's already being considered? Why would you vote yes on this bill simply because it's the first one? I understand legalization is what we all want but this bill doesn't provide that. Why can't you make an informed decision and wait for a better bill to vote yes?


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## beardo (Sep 30, 2010)

tc1 said:


> The whole "tobacco companies have bought land in Cali for growing pot" is a myth and they've even come out publicly and said this


 Philip Morris bought a whole lot of land in trinity county to grow if it becomes legal. Not a myth it is fact


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## mrFancyPlants (Sep 30, 2010)

beardo said:


> Philip Morris bought a whole lot of land in trinity county to grow if it becomes legal. Not a myth it is fact


[Citation needed]

I keep hearing this rumor but no one has any facts. Also, while Norcal is great for some strains, there are many more that would be better grown as far south as you can get(equitorial sativas - even socal isn't south enough for some). The future of commercial, large-scale growing, if there is one, is in large greenhouses. If you do that and control lighting, temps, CO2 and bugs, you can grow anywhere. You can also get near-indoor quality with economies of scale.

It'll boil down to what consumers want. Weed isn't just tobacco - everyone on here should know that. Individual strains could almost be considered different drugs. Are there different tobacco cigs out there that alternately make you sleepy or make you jumpy? No. MJ is more complicated. Also, how will consumers prefer to use MJ? Smoking? Edibles? Patches? Tinctures? Gum? If most people don't want to smoke the weed, you could grow it outdoors in the central valley where it would be the cheapest and post-process large quantities down to extracts. You're no longer as concerned with quality if you go that route.

I think a lot of stoners keep spreading the same rumors without really thinking it through.


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## mrFancyPlants (Sep 30, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> This bill is bullshit. No one is against legalization here they are against this particular bill. There are other bills that have been written they just aren't being voted on yet. For all of the people saying 25 sq. ft. is enough room for personal consumption who are you to say what one person can consume? As for the vertical grow solution, this can be done but it really only works with hydro. People who want this bill passed are selfish and only think about themselves. Whatever suits you, right? It's good enough for you why should you care if it doesn't benefit others? For the claims of the OP you're retarded: if you thing you can fit 26 mature plants in 5 gallon buckets in a 5x5 area, then you obviously don't have much experience. Your mathematics are flawed and you don't take all of the variables into consideration. That being said I bet this bill gets passed simply because the uneducated simple minded out number the educated thoughtful people in this country. While I'm all for democracy the majority will never be right simply because the majority of people are not educated and informed enough to make a responsible decision for every matter.
> 
> Why are all you people for this bill when their are better bill's already being considered? Why would you vote yes on this bill simply because it's the first one? I understand legalization is what we all want but this bill doesn't provide that. Why can't you make an informed decision and wait for a better bill to vote yes?


Well right now you can grow 0 sq ft, so 25 is an improvement. Unless you're medical, but nothing changes for you anyway.


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## tc1 (Sep 30, 2010)

It's absolutely FALSE.

Tobacco companies are regulated by the FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.
Marijuana will still be illegal federally even if Prop 19 passes. (For now)

Tobacco companies would be DONE if they even thought about getting into a business that is still federally illegal. They don't want that kinda heat .... they have enough as is.


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## Hayduke (Sep 30, 2010)

Do people who grow weed in cali...do it without medical??? I can't imagine that...

And as for the 25...again I want to and I am sure many recreational users would want to do the same...GROW OUTDOORS!!!! You can grow tomatoes and other crap indoors and hydro...and some do...but most people grow their tomatoes outside in the glorious sun as indoors is impractical.

This lousy prop purposefully makes a 40 acre parcel with a few families living communally, only be able to grow a 25sqft patch...WHY IS THAT???? It is not hard to figure out...the writer of the prop is a large marijuana grower who wants to grow even more and reap the profits (not personal consumption!!!)...this is why the space is limited and the permit process is guaranteed to be too costly for most and disallowed by most communities.

I understand why Dick would do this (guaranteed less competition)...but I can't for the life of me understand creating a new felony for consuming cannabis in your home without hiding from minors like your smoking meth in the bathroom????

Oh and I just figured it out...yes some do grow in Cali without shelling out the ~$12 bucks a month to cover your ass...but they are either the 18 year old kids who wanna try to grow some pot in the closet of the new apartment...stuff always happens here (rats, thieves, early harvest etc) but also larger criminal types that are slinging like it's cool...and these dudes are stealing their electricity...cuz allowing me to hide in a tent with HID so I can grow year round is freaking cost prohibitive!!! I know I have been doing it for 2 years and do not sell...it is expensive to run even a 400, fans and A/C especially!!! Also that does NOT! mean legalization...it makes it so the majority will be forced to buy Dicks buds rather than just those who do not have the patience and choose to buy weed.

Just because talented growers with expensive equipment and bros buying affordable buds off them to cover the power, can with high yielding strains produce plenty of personal stash does not equal legalization but decriminalization. Anyone who does not have the patience to wait for a prop that not only actually legalizes pot but releases potheads from jail...remember cops are pussies and know that real drug users carry guns and some even know how to use them...picking on potheads make them feel good. Does not have the patience to grow anyway



Edit:


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## nl3004.kind (Sep 30, 2010)

hayduke, you're a sweetheart and i love you to pieces, but seriously; you're holding out for something that will "set the captives free?" never (and i mean never) gonna happen for a variety of reasons: not the least of which is that the non-stoners who we are counting on to pass this thing will never vote to set criminals free (unfortunately every single one of the people behind bars for the crime of posession, transport, cultivation or whatever currently are in fact criminals, and you can't get the necessary traction from the overwhelming majority of the populace who view us as such... what this prop *will do* is show the country that it is sustainable, that the planes will not start immediately crashing into buildings, that potheads aren't gonna be running wild (or much more wild than we already are), and that it's not that big a deal... if this prop fails, it will be seen as a referendum on the whole decrim/legalization movement and it will take much longer for us to gain mainstream approval for our chosen form of self expression, medication, meditation, relaxation (whatever you do it for)... so vote your conscience and allow the rest of us to have a viewpoint as well... sincerely, with respect.


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## Hayduke (Oct 1, 2010)

When Murderers and rapist are paroled because of overcrowding and it cost more than twice what I make a year to house a convict...I believe people will support letting pot heads out of mandatory minimums to make room for the John Gardener's (kidnapped raped and murdered 2 local girls after being paroled for a violent rape of a 16 year old) of the World...but maybe not. 

The State was court ordered to reduce the prison population and The Governator had a chance to do this...but chose to release those convicted for property crimes...burglars, robbers, and theives...job security for the gangs in Khaki and blue.

This prop is poorly written which will leave it tied up in court...sending a message to the rest of the country all right...that not even Cali could make this work...And I personally do not believe that this has anything to do with legalization and everything to do with Dick Lee becoming more than just a resemblance of Bill Gates but filthy fooking rich. And I personally can not vote for a bill that makes what I do on a daily basis and have for years...a freaking felony.

I totally respect the notion that we should each vote our conscience...but mine also compels me encourage others to think about the real ramifications of passage rather than just the pipe dream novelty and to think critically about the motives of those behind the language and the amount of money spent to get this on the ballot...Is Richard Lee doing this because he is an altruistic pot philanthropist??? I think not.

The only people I know that are for this in California are kids and the one cop I am acquainted with through dog sport.

Think about it this way...If serious smokers could grow all they wanted...because it is legal...and the smoke on friday night to be cool crowd buys their little bags from the quikee mart every couple of weeks...would there be any need for Warehouse size commercial gardens? Nope. and Dick has quite a bit of competition in the medical arena...some of which he may have even trained at his silly school.

I apologize for my passionate opinion and certainly do not mean to offend anyone..just please vote know


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## TokinPodPilot (Oct 1, 2010)

Small point of contention... if the incident you're talking about is the same I'm thinking about, I'm pretty sure it was the county courts and municipal law enforcement agencies that screwed up, not Schwarzenegger. The intent of the court order was intended to release non-violent offenders in state facilities. Unfortunately, what happened is that the county and local cities instead let out a shedload of THEIR prison populations. Most of which were, of course, in jail at the time for violent offenses of various sorts. That's one example of why I also do not trust the wording of Prop. 19. Local municipalities have shown no qualms about interpreting both ambiguous and some fairly direct laws as they see fit. Trusting that they will regulate cannabis in a fair and equitable manner is folly.


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## veggiegardener (Oct 1, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> Small point of contention... if the incident you're talking about is the same I'm thinking about, I'm pretty sure it was the county courts and municipal law enforcement agencies that screwed up, not Schwarzenegger. The intent of the court order was intended to release non-violent offenders in state facilities. Unfortunately, what happened is that the county and local cities instead let out a shedload of THEIR prison populations. Most of which were, of course, in jail at the time for violent offenses of various sorts. That's one example of why I also do not trust the wording of Prop. 19. Local municipalities have shown no qualms about interpreting both ambiguous and some fairly direct laws as they see fit. Trusting that they will regulate cannabis in a fair and equitable manner is folly.


Well said. There's a lot of stupid in local government.


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## Hayduke (Oct 1, 2010)

TokinPodPilot said:


> Small point of contention... if the incident you're talking about is the same I'm thinking about, I'm pretty sure it was the county courts and municipal law enforcement agencies that screwed up, not Schwarzenegger. The intent of the court order was intended to release non-violent offenders in state facilities. Unfortunately, what happened is that the county and local cities instead let out a shedload of THEIR prison populations. Most of which were, of course, in jail at the time for violent offenses of various sorts. That's one example of why I also do not trust the wording of Prop. 19. Local municipalities have shown no qualms about interpreting both ambiguous and some fairly direct laws as they see fit. Trusting that they will regulate cannabis in a fair and equitable manner is folly.


This is true...but it was the trickle down from the courts ordering the Governor to reduce State prison populations. Arney decided who would be released from prison.

But yeah...it will be the same for prop 19. In non-pot friendly counties like where I live, it will be tied up in courts for a long time...but check it out...It will not be opposed by Alameda County (and others of course) or the city of Oakland...and guess what...Dick gets to start his mega garden and be able to handle gradual expansion to the southern and eastern counties in good time.

Watch for this Dick to be franchising turn-key commercial grow operations...


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## veggiegardener (Oct 1, 2010)

Dick won't live long enough to go anywhere.

This law will make deadly enemies of those this law hurts.


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## Hayduke (Oct 1, 2010)

veggiegardener said:


> Dick won't live long enough to go anywhere.
> 
> This law will make deadly enemies of those this law hurts.


I have wondered the same...Oakland is no joke.


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Oct 6, 2010)

mrFancyPlants said:


> Well right now you can grow 0 sq ft, so 25 is an improvement. Unless you're medical, but nothing changes for you anyway.


Their are other bill in the works that allow you more rights. Prop 19 is just the first bill up for vote and is written by people who want to control the market. Keep being a tool and go ahead and vote your rights away, I don't care.


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## tc1 (Oct 6, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> Their are other bill in the works that allow you more rights. Prop 19 is just the first bill up for vote and is written by people who want to control the market. Keep being a tool and go ahead and vote your rights away, I don't care.



Prop 19 is the first legalization bill to hit the ballot in 30+ years ....

It's not that easy.


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## Hayduke (Oct 6, 2010)

exactly...this will kill the good one if it passes... 

We need to get it right the first time...or pay the price. 215's language was clear, and it took a long time before safe access outside the Bay area. It really has not been that safe until the last year with the Supreme Court Decision against SB420. Voting for unreasonable restrictions (outdoor is for those who want to grow it...indoors is for those that want to hide it) and new felony crimes is unconscionable.


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## tc1 (Oct 6, 2010)

Have fun waiting another 30 years ....


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## stonedmetalhead1 (Oct 7, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Have fun waiting another 30 years ....


There are already other bills written and going through the process. Prop 19 will give all the power to a select few and allow them to control the market. 

It's not going to be 30 years, keep trying to scare people into voting yes on this shitty bill. People hear legalize, proceed to giz in their pants, and don't read between the lines to see who this really benefits.


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## budlover13 (Oct 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> This bill is bullshit. No one is against legalization here they are against this particular bill. There are other bills that have been written they just aren't being voted on yet. For all of the people saying 25 sq. ft. is enough room for personal consumption who are you to say what one person can consume? As for the vertical grow solution, this can be done but it really only works with hydro. People who want this bill passed are selfish and only think about themselves. Whatever suits you, right? It's good enough for you why should you care if it doesn't benefit others? For the claims of the OP you're retarded: if you thing you can fit 26 mature plants in 5 gallon buckets in a 5x5 area, then you obviously don't have much experience. Your mathematics are flawed and you don't take all of the variables into consideration. That being said I bet this bill gets passed simply because the uneducated simple minded out number the educated thoughtful people in this country. While I'm all for democracy the majority will never be right simply because the majority of people are not educated and informed enough to make a responsible decision for every matter.
> 
> Why are all you people for this bill when their are better bill's already being considered? Why would you vote yes on this bill simply because it's the first one? I understand legalization is what we all want but this bill doesn't provide that. Why can't you make an informed decision and wait for a better bill to vote yes?


Thank you!


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## veggiegardener (Oct 7, 2010)

"God is great, man is not;
Man made whiskey, God made pot!"

Love it!


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## tc1 (Oct 7, 2010)

stonedmetalhead1 said:


> There are already other bills written and going through the process. Prop 19 will give all the power to a select few and allow them to control the market.
> 
> It's not going to be 30 years, keep trying to scare people into voting yes on this shitty bill. People hear legalize, proceed to giz in their pants, and don't read between the lines to see who this really benefits.


There's been HUNDREDS of bills written that have never hit the ballot. Prop 19 gives power to local cities, and ONLY in regard to commercial sales.

Prohibition swings back and forth ... you have to know when to strike. Waiting another 2 years to pass legislation might be too little too late. The climate is right at present ... will it be in 2 years? Who knows. But I can tell you this, A bill like the Jack Herer bill has ZERO shot of passing. And even if it did, 90% of anti-prop 19'ers would STILL vote no.

This isn't about "wording" .... it's about money and "keeping mine". You know ... the status quo.


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## mr2shim (Oct 8, 2010)

The ignorance in this thread is appalling. How hard is it to understand the reason for the 25sq ft limit? I'll make it easy.

The reason they chose a small number like 25sq ft:

Because Marijuana is currently a Schedule 1 drug in over half the Country.

What's Schedule 1? It means it holds no medicinal or medical value and is very dangerous and has a high potential for "abuse"

Making a Schedule 1 drug legal is a scary thing to many Americans so if you really want it to pass you have to have some VERY strict regulations to make it be acceptable among the masses.

Use your brain people, do you really think the mass population would be ok with Jo Schmo growing 80 pounds of reefer next door to Jill Jane and her perfect family? No? I thought so..

When you use your brain you can answer even the dumbest questions. Isn't critical thinking fun?

cliff notes: Ganja smokers aren't the majority of the population, so a bill or prop has to be written to fit the majority of the population. Hence the stupid regulations. If you EVER want to see marijuana legal it WILL have to come down to this. Otherwise this stupid ass "drug" war will go on for hundreds of years and millions of lives ruined for a fucking plant..

Seriously, pull your fucking head out of your stupid fat asses for two seconds and start thinking.


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## Hayduke (Oct 10, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> The ignorance in this thread is appalling. How hard is it to understand the reason for the 25sq ft limit? I'll make it easy.
> 
> The reason they chose a small number like 25sq ft:
> 
> ...


Quick! Everybody vote yes for legalization!!! This guy really needs to get high!!!


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## mr2shim (Oct 10, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> Quick! Everybody vote yes for legalization!!! This guy really needs to get high!!!


hahaha, no I don't NEED to get high. It's been months since I've smoked and I'm quite alright. Do you agree or disagree with what I posted becuase it was quite a lot and you didn't really elaborate on anything.


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## Hayduke (Oct 10, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> hahaha, no I don't NEED to get high. It's been months since I've smoked and I'm quite alright. Do you agree or disagree with what I posted becuase it was quite a lot and you didn't really elaborate on anything.


I think this is a California Voter Initiative, put on the ballot by the people of California...we do not give a fuck about the masses. The point of the whole MMJ/recMJ is that it is scheduled wrong and always has been...WE ALL KNOW THIS! 

The 25sqft is a prohibition that limits your ability to cheaply grow all you need, while simultaneously allowing you to fill the void by purchasing marijuana from the author of the initiative but very few others.

That's what I think...But I am pretty much just a towel...


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## veggiegardener (Oct 10, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> Quick! Everybody vote yes for legalization!!! This guy really needs to get high!!!


He's on the East Coast. Let him go to Amsterdam.


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## veggiegardener (Oct 10, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> I think this is a California Voter Initiative, put on the ballot by the people of California...we do not give a fuck about the masses. The point of the whole MMJ/recMJ is that it is scheduled wrong and always has been...WE ALL KNOW THIS!
> 
> The 25sqft is a prohibition that limits your ability to cheaply grow all you need, while simultaneously allowing you to fill the void by purchasing marijuana from the author of the initiative but very few others.
> 
> That's what I think...But I am pretty much just a towel...


Sometimes towels are right, as well.(big fan of Toweliee. Spent last Winter watching all the episodes. About 200).


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## budling357 (Oct 10, 2010)

I cant get the smile off my face. 

Not only will my vote contribute to the progress of America, but it will cancel out veggiegaydeners vote. Two birds one stone.


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## mr2shim (Oct 11, 2010)

budling357 said:


> I cant get the smile off my face.
> 
> Not only will my vote contribute to the progress of America, but it will cancel out veggiegaydeners vote. Two birds one stone.


Good job! Progression for America. Too bad people are too concerned about their own personal gain to care about something bigger than themselves.


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## desert dude (Oct 18, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> The ignorance in this thread is appalling. How hard is it to understand the reason for the 25sq ft limit? I'll make it easy.
> 
> The reason they chose a small number like 25sq ft:
> 
> ...


You are absolutely correct. I already cast my ballot; I voted for prop 19. I hope the rest of CA voters did too.


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## Dan Kone (Oct 18, 2010)

Hayduke said:


> The 25sqft is a prohibition that limits your ability to cheaply grow all you need, while simultaneously allowing you to fill the void by purchasing marijuana from the author of the initiative but very few others.


Really? You NEED to grow more than 1.5-2.5 pounds every 10 or so weeks? That's "personal" use?


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## Hayduke (Oct 18, 2010)

Dan Kone said:


> Really? You NEED to grow more than 1.5-2.5 pounds every 10 or so weeks? That's "personal" use?


 Just because you CAN produce that much...does not mean that you can afford to!!! Nor does it mean that I would want to smoke that crap...High yield = weak pot...and hell I often flower for 10 weeks!!

The space is too restrictive for outdoor growing!

Being forced to pay SDGE a ridiculous amount of money for artificial sun and all the fans and a/c to cool it is not legalization...it makes the cost of growing your own prohibitive to the masses. Last months Electric bill is $181 with NO A/C!!!! and only a 400w light.


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## desert dude (Oct 19, 2010)

tc1 said:


> Let's first be clear ...
> 
> Prop 19 states perfectly clear that it is a 25 square foot area. Most people come to the common conclusion of 5x5 because it's the simplest calculation with regarding to the square footage. But under Prop 19 your grow space design can be ANY measurements which equates to a 25sft surface area or less.
> 
> ...


Does p19 reference "canopy", or soil foot print? If the limitation is on canopy, then 25 square feet will not support 25 plants.


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