# flowering with aquaponics, revisited



## haole420 (Sep 4, 2012)

last season was a disaster. whiteflies took over the coco grow. inadequate filtering and nutrient precipitation fouled the roots on the aquaponic side and i my plants prematurely died a few weeks early. i had to keep most of the harvest for myself, but i gotta say, considering all the shit that went wrong, it wasn't bad! couple things i learned: (1) go with a higher res volume/plant ratio, (2) don't use citric acid as a pH down, (3) keep the pH in the ideal range for the plants, not the fish, and (4) filter the solids out of the system.

the aquaponic cloner, which was the first aquaponic system i built, was still bulletproof after more than a year and a half. there's nothing to prove there: it works. in my opinion, there's no easier way to clone. no domes, no spraying, no hormones, no fuss. but, it had to go 

i gutted the whole room to streamline my operation. no more cloning and veg for the time being. that should help out with getting heat and power consumption under control. reworked the ventilation so that my lights have a separate intake/exhaust from the room. also just upgraded the lights to dual fixtures, so i've got a 600watt HPS above each tray with 5 plants. at full power, that's 120watts per plant in a 9"x9" basket. at full capacity, that's 600watts/8 plants = 75watts per plant or 600watts/4.5 sqft = 133watts/sqft. right now both lamps are dialed down to 300watts each.

my new system is about 100 gallons and modeled after the University of Virgin Islands (UVI) system, which is one of the more popular ap system designs out there. i skipped the "bioball barrel" since my system has plenty of hydroton in it to provide surface area for the nitro bacteria. i also skipped the degassing barrel since there's plenty of aeration going in my lower res. i reused "dirty" parts and hydroton from the old two systems as bacteria cultures so i wouldn't have to cycle the new system.

my approach this time is to keep nute concentration relatively low in the 500-1000ppm range and to keep pH wandering between 5.5-7.0 or thereabouts. ideal pH for nitro bacteria is around 7-7.5 but nutrients start to precipitate out of solution at that point. i think they still do their thing down to pH of about 6.0, so i want to make sure i keep it going back and forth.

using citric acid seemed like a bad idea last season. i think it was killing my bennies and nitro bacteria, plus it couldn't hold pH worth shit. using 80% phosphoric acid and going with a res volume/plant ratio of about 10 gallons/plant. some claim it gunks stuff up, but i never saw that happen.

so far so good, with the exception of going overboard with the phosphoric acid. pH dipped way down to 3.2 and killed off some fish. those that survived the 4hr acid bath i know are resilient to low pH and can hang out at pH of 5.0 or higher all day. i found that the fastest way to bring the pH back up was to dump 5 gallons and refill with tap water (8.0+ pH, 250ppm).

clones came in rockwool blocks, which i buried in hydroton. algae seems to love rockwool and high pH but seems to have a hard time growing on hydroton, so i'm keeping the rockwool blocks completely covered with hydroton and the top inch or so of hydroton dry. i inoculated the rockwool blocks with great white directly before putting them into the system.

using tap water, phosphoric acid, calmag, CNS17, and eventually a bloom booster once things get going. feeding fish plain ol' goldfish food a few times a day. i might experiment with feeding them some chopped fruits and veggies eventually or adding a vermiponics bucket to the system.



two 32-gallon heavy duty gargage cans. lower one is fish tank with mostly goldfish and some local minnow species of some sort. upper one is vortex filter with crawdaddy, pleco, snails.


don't mind my mess on the floor. vortex filter drains to flood trays. the flood trays are connected, so there's only one autosiphon drain. autosiphon consists of 3/4" PVC drain pipe with 1-1/2" bushing to create the vortex, 3" PVC bell, and special "stealth" manifold underneath to keep it super quiet.


day 4


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## haole420 (Sep 4, 2012)

currently, pH 5.6, EC 0.82, 596ppm


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## haole420 (Sep 6, 2012)

left out GH micro fro the list of nutes. also, three daily feedings of goldfish food seems to bump up EC by 0.01 every two days or so (~5ppm/day). planning to reduce fish feed to once every other day during flushing to minimize ammonia/nitrate/nitrite production. was also considering letting the pH rise to 7.5 during final flush in hopes of locking out nutrients but this might cause issues mineral precipitation. still a ways off, so i'll figure it out then. there are always those who say flushing doesn't matter and that it's all in the cure...


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## haole420 (Sep 6, 2012)

corwinlame said:


> grow light home depot


yes, "grow light home depot," as they say. sounds like a bot to me.


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## berkman858 (Sep 6, 2012)

Nice setup but are the fish in those res bottles? Seems like a shit life for the fish, not being able to swim around much at all. Not that I really care about fish... just my opinion.


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## haole420 (Sep 7, 2012)

berkman858 said:


> Nice setup but are the fish in those res bottles? Seems like a shit life for the fish, not being able to swim around much at all. Not that I really care about fish... just my opinion.


they live in one of the 32gal garbage cans. plenty of room for them. they seem pretty content. most of the fish have been going for over a year, and previously in even more cramped conditions with crazy turbulence caused by bell siphon draining on top of them every 10 minutes 24x7. don't tell PETA!

submerged mini milk crates give them an area with a sense of security, plus there's leftover pieces of 1-1/2" PVC pipe and elbows in there that they hang out in. the wild minnows have even bred a few times, which is a sign of low stress and good environmental conditions. they end up eating most of their fry, but a few survive somehow.


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## haole420 (Sep 7, 2012)

increased light to 2x 400watt HPS. going to hold steady there for a while. lots of new growth filling in. the solid state variable speed fan controllers made it possible to dial in the light cooling fan and room exhaust fan to exactly where i needed it maintain temp/RH. big improvement over the standard 3-step fan controls.


inoculated with great white and a few days later with another (much cheaper) endomyco formula from gardening supply store. nice fuzzies on one, fishbones on another.


the taller ones stretched about 4 inches in the first week. the 6 pulleys suspending the boom proved to make raising the two reflectors a breeze. that thing is rock solid. you could sit on it if you wanted to. big improvement over the old chains and s-hooks i was using. thinking of adding another two pulleys to each side to convert to double luff tackle and increase mechanical advantage from 3:1 to 5:1.


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## haole420 (Sep 14, 2012)

started with pH 5.2, went up to 5.4 - 5.5 once i started adding nutes, holding nice and steady.

not sure what's up with my hanna meter. i thought i was at 600-700ppm or so, but after recalibrating with hanna reference solutions, it was reading 1000-1100ppm. i think the probe or the test packets are bad, so i'm going to hold off adding any nutes until i get new probes, recalibrate, and figure out where i'm at. ec and ppm are stable though. feeding the fish gives the system a little bump, but by less than 0.01mS or 2ppm. plant uptake is just starting to outpace ammonia production by fish on a moderate feeding schedule.

i haven't flushed, nor do i intend to. res temp going between 25-27C (77-80F) night/day. while DO might be down, the roots get 100% air about 1/2 the time with the ebb/flow, so it really doesn't matter. root rot almost never happens in aquaponics, by the way. i haven't added any H2O2 or bennies (except for initial root inoculation with great white). the whole point of this approach is to take as much of the hassle and risk out of hydro. i'm after an environmentally friendly, quasi-natural approach that's tolerant to non-sterile conditions, lots of organic debris in the system, high temps, low DO, and a slacker grower that doesn't want to flush my system every week.


9 are silver haze, 1 is great white shark (orange ziptie around base). these are the taller 4 silver clones.
the taller silvers have been showing obvious pistils since day 7, but they seem more focused on bushing out whereas there are noticeably more pistils on the shorter silvers below (all from the same mother). 


front-left is the great white along with the 5 smaller silvers. one is still tiny. it was the smallest one to begin with. showing some growth in the past few days, but it took a while. i think it was waterlogged in the rockwool. now that the roots have made it out of the block and into the hydroton, it's darkening up and growing.


recovering leaf from great white. the great white was the one that seemed to show deficiency the fastest, but it also seemed to recover the fastest once the roots made it out of the rockwool. chlorosis of the lowest/oldest leaf or two on the silvers seemed to set in more slowly, but only half of the leaves recovered. some dried up, some are still all yellow but alive, and some are greening up again. the great white (more indica) definitely has the faster metabolism. it seems to be flowering the faster.


topped the tallest silver and stuck it in some hydroton 2 days ago. no cloning gel, no dome, no misting, no rockwool, just constant ebb/flow in 1000ppm of nutes and fish poop. not exactly how most people clone. as soon as it roots, i'm going to veg it out under some HO T5s in another room. considering hempy. hopefully i can pull a dozen clones off of it when these are finished. i never tried rooting under 11hrs light, but i'm sure it'll be fine. the transition to full on veg might be slow, but as long as it roots it'll be fine (i hope).


roots starting to emerge from baskets. they got pretty long last time. there's a steady current through the tray with the drain in it, but it's a little slower through the second "slave" tray. a lot of fine particles of uneaten food that made it through the vortex filter end up settling in the second tray. i added a few feeder minnows to both trays to eat up the settled food (fine, powdery, clumps) and covert it to heavier, well-formed poop which doesn't foul the roots as much. i also added two crabs to the second tray who are just going to town cleaning up. i've seen both the fish and crabs grooming the roots. roots are snow white and smell like sprouts, even with all that organic material floating around. i don't care if they chomp on the roots. think of it as pruning. a little trauma should cause the roots to branch.


heavily darwinized population of goldfish, bluegill, and wild minnow. some of them have been going for 2 years in some really ridiculous conditions. out of about 200 fish over two years, these are the 30 or so badasses that survived. NH3/NH4+ are ~4ppm, which is considered somewhat high for freshwater aquariums. pH below 7 is definitely slowing down the nitro bacteria, but it's been steady at around 4ppm and looks like it might be coming down slightly, despite constant overfeeding. we'll see if the scavengers have any impact.


both lamps at 600watt now. for fan speed control, the solid state controllers are the way to go. they control voltage and frequency, so you can dial it down to any speed and there's never any hum or heat. beats the step controls, which seem like they only give you fast, really slow, and super slow speed presets. the shorter bunch was under 400watts for a few more days before getting bumped up to 600watts. they were also further away, so maybe less intense light kicked them into flowering more? as you can see, i offset one of the reflectors to be right on top of the shorties.

over the next week, i'm going to push the pH up to 6.0 to cover the upper pH range for nutrient absorption. i'll eventually push it back down to 5.2. i've ruled out going as high as 7.0-7.5, which is the optimal range for the nitro bacteria. i don't think i'll go beyond 6.0, at which point calcium phosphate starts to precipiate out of solution, encrusting roots (and everything else) with hard scale. this is what killed my grow in week 7 or 8 last time.


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## haole420 (Sep 21, 2012)

Day 20:

everything looks stable except for the fact that the sump pump went dry twice, added 15 gallons tap water this week (~100 gallon system). the sump needs a float valve hooked up to water res to top off automatically.

still haven't flushed in three weeks. it's truly a recirculating system. water temp 26-27C. no H2O2, no bennies, no root rot, just naturally occurring probiotics.

1200ppm/1.64ms yesterday, when the sump went "dry" (less than 4") for the second time this week. after adding 10 gallons, brought it down to 1129ppm/1.54ms with slight upward effect on pH, 5.2 to 5.3. i think the real ppm/ec is somewhere south of these numbers. not planning to add any nutes until i get back down to 700ppm or so and my new meter probe arrives.

pushed pH up to 6.0, but growth seemed to slow at anything about 5.5, so brought it back to 5.2-5.4 and things seem happier.



i upgraded to double pulleys so now at 5:1 mechanical advantage on each side, you can raise/lower the ~70lb boom/reflector assembly with two fingers using hardly any force (~7lbs on each side). i considered splitting the boom in half so i can adjust height of each reflector separately, but adding a few lengths of chain was simpler. maybe after this grow.



taller silver hazes continuing to stretch, maybe at about 2ft now. a little slower than the great white for pistils to emerge, but things looking on track so far. roots just hanging out without any kind of shroud.



stumpier ones still stumpy, but growing. should do better now that the light is right on top of them. the great white (front/left) is at least a week ahead of the silver hazes. edge leaf curl seems to appear when i don't refill the humidifier regularly.



saw some kind of larvae under a few leaves, so sprayed everything down with a harsh knockdown spray for roses/shrubs. luckily, i tested it on this plant first. fail. all but one branch wilted, died, and eventually got chopped. roots still looked great, no rot or fouling. switched to an organic spray for fruit/veggies for the rest of them. sprayed every leaf individually, then wiped each leaf with paper towel soaked in spray a few days later. no sign of larvae, whiteflies, or any other critters so far.



clipping still going strong after about 10 days. still hasn't rooted, but it's getting bumpy down there. veins turning dark green and showing new growth. that whole thing about clippings not being able to uptake nutrients until it sprouts roots? that's bullshit. i can't say whether this is unique to aquaponics or not, but this clipping is definitely sucking up nutes, sans roots. not one leaf has fallen off of it, and it's just continuing to flower. interesting to see how it will finish.



crabs, mini catfish, feeder fish doing an awesome job cleaning up roots and trays. i don't feed them, so they pretty much have to scavenge for food. flood trays are totally free of fine food particles that used to settle in the troughs, especially in the slave tray that fills/drains hydrostatically and lacks a current fast enough to move the debris. saw one of the crabs chomping on some emerging roots. it mowed down about 7 root tips. a few days later, another 20 or 30 root tips poked through. i don't think the crab pruning hurts, i think it actually stimulates branching within the basket. hopefully i won't end up with a tangled 2ft coiled beard under every plant like i did in DWC bubble buckets.



fish bulking up nicely. installed automatic fish feeder and set timer for dawn/dusk. fine particles of fish food settled all over vortex filter before. pleco and crawdaddy doing excellent work keeping it spotless. i usually keep it covered 24x7 since the pleco is a nocturnal feeder.


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## Warlock1369 (Sep 22, 2012)

Haven't finished reading everything yet. Looking good and I'm subbed. I would realy like to do a veggie grow.


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## sorethumb (Sep 23, 2012)

im floored too. vary impressed and i will be steping in too see more .


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## haole420 (Sep 24, 2012)

Warlock1369 said:


> Haven't finished reading everything yet.


few have, few have. lol


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## haole420 (Sep 24, 2012)

NH3/NH4+ has been pretty steady at ~4ppm. tested today and finally down to 0.25ppm after about 6 weeks since system was setup.

it's a conundrum, because i started with active nitro bacteria cultures from existing systems that were up and running for more than a year. why did it take 6 weeks for the system to cycle? one week, i can understand, but 6 weeks with existing cultures?

here's my theory: has to do with pH.

optimal pH for nitrosomonas is between 7.8 and 8.0.
optimal pH for nitrobacter is between 7.3 and 7.5.

my old systems were constantly topped off with 8.0 tap water and with no intervention, always seemed to settle at a pH of 7.0. at that high a pH, nutrient uptake wasn't an issue, but salt precipitation was when using synthetic nutrients in the system.

so the bacteria i transplanted in my new system were used to pH 7.0. i have kept the pH between 5.2 and 6.0. what i believe happened is that most of the nitro bacteria died off and only those that could handle a lower pH range survived. it took 6 weeks, but with each subsequent generation, the population of nitro bac in my system got more and more tolerant to lower pH.

i believe that what i have now is a darwinized colony of nitro bac that thrives at pH of 5.2 to 6.0.

moral of the story: when you cycle your tank, keep the pH at the level you intent to keep throughout the grow and not in the "optimal" 7.3 to 8.0 range that is recommended for most aquarists.

btw, the darwinized population of fish were fine the whole time ammonia was at 4ppm. lost a few to a pH snafu, but the survivors didn't look stressed or jittery, they had healthy appetites, continued to grow.


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## grouch (Sep 26, 2012)

What kind of fish food are you using?


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## haole420 (Sep 26, 2012)

grouch said:


> What kind of fish food are you using?


Was using goldfish flakes, switched to small cichlid pellets, which leave less "crumbs" supposedly. Pretty heavy feeding schedule

Found bottle of barley/ peat with humic acids at fish store.they sell it add water clarifier, but should benefit plants? 

Adding gh micro, calmag, cns17 bloom, koolbloom, epson salt as needed (not often)


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## Demianwulf (Sep 27, 2012)

This build is amazing many props on this one. I would love to scale this down a bit for a closet grow I want to do. Do you have a part list or build sequence for yours? Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery  So much information to take all in, I'm looking for a starting point.


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## grouch (Sep 28, 2012)

haole420 said:


> Was using goldfish flakes, switched to small cichlid pellets, which leave less "crumbs" supposedly. Pretty heavy feeding schedule
> 
> Found bottle of barley/ peat with humic acids at fish store.they sell it add water clarifier, but should benefit plants?
> 
> Adding gh micro, calmag, cns17 bloom, koolbloom, epson salt as needed (not often)


Most of the pet store food is designed to keep the water clean in fish tanks. The opposite is wanted in aquaponics, we want the nasty water. I also look for food that doesn't contain preservatives. No point growing organic if you are going to add in preservatives and other junk. A friend told me about this place which has a lots of info, great variety and good prices. I have used the guppy flake from there and had decent results.


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## haole420 (Sep 29, 2012)

Demianwulf said:


> This build is amazing many props on this one. I would love to scale this down a bit for a closet grow I want to do. Do you have a part list or build sequence for yours? Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery  So much information to take all in, I'm looking for a starting point.


i'm pretty much hacking up what many others have done already, so i can't take full credit. but thanks!

here's how i would approach a closet system. the primary design restraint is space. so start with that. mind you, this restraint is going to make things more complex, in order to make the system successful. there are simpler/cheaper ways to do it, but poor filtration is ultimately going to lead to system and crop failure if you go down that path. it's also going to be a little higher maintenance, but you'll get all the benefits of ap probiotics.

1. figure out what your footprint is. 2x4', 3x3', whatever.

2. figure out how much vertical space you have. 6', 8', etc. consider the height of your reflector/ducting/fan/etc (2'), plants (2' or more), basket/tray/tube/bucket/whatever (1' prob), enough clearance between top of sump and bottom of tray to be able to access the sump and for enough of a drop for the autosiphon drain (1'), and then the height of the sump (1-2'). so minimum, you're going to need about 8ft vertical clearance.

3. research exact dimensions of your normal hydro components you're thinking of using and design it on paper (or illustrator, CAD, whatever): lights, ducts, fans, power strips, flood trays, sump bins, pipes/tubing, etc. remember that everything is probably only going be accessible from one side. you're going to have to buy or build a stand or support structure.

4. for a small grow, forget a vortex filter or settlement tank. those are low velocity, low pressure, gravity-based filters that need distance to give particles enough time to settle. you're going to have to go with an off-the-shelf filter, something designed operate at pressure, like a whole house sediment filter (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202073874/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=whole+house&storeId=10051) or a purgeable rusco spin down sediment filter (http://www.amazon.com/Rusco-1-12-60-F-Spin-Down-Sediment-Polyester/dp/B006AF2278/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1348911342&sr=8-2&keywords=rusco+spindown)

5. pick a pump. i'd recommend low flow rate/higher pressure so that you can use one or both of the filters i mentioned above. fountain pump just isn't going to be able to handle a real filter. something like this: http://www.amazon.com/SHURflo-2088-492-444-Model-Fresh-Water/dp/B000B63ZAU/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1348911012&sr=1-1&keywords=shurflo+110 consider getting their accumulator tank too or, if you have room for a bigger tank, something like this: http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-25ecodZ5yc1v/R-100557223/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=water+tank&storeId=10051#.UGbAVZiHJUk 

6. assemble the pump/tank/filter subsystem and hook it up to a minimal test rig. just use an old bin for a res. run the system in a constant test cycle overnight, or for a few days, checking water temp, air temp, water level, etc frequently. write it down. ideally, you don't want the numbers to move around a lot.

7. now squeeze the pump, tank, and filters into your design somewhere. cut the pvc, but don't glue anything. dry fit it all first. modify design as necessary. rebuild the rack/stand if you have to.

but don't take my word for it. just a suggestion. please post pics if you start this build!


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## haole420 (Sep 29, 2012)

grouch said:


> Most of the pet store food is designed to keep the water clean in fish tanks. The opposite is wanted in aquaponics, we want the nasty water. I also look for food that doesn't contain preservatives. No point growing organic if you are going to add in preservatives and other junk. A friend told me about this place which has a lots of info, great variety and good prices. I have used the guppy flake from there and had decent results.


you're right, but i'm not exactly an AP purist, not by a stretch. my goal is to find an affordable, low-maintenance, high yield method of growing, not to grow the healthiest organic stuff or to promote pure AP. maybe someone else can figure it out, but i gave up.

AP is really only ideal for growing nitrogen-hungry leafy greens, it seems. most successful commercial farms grow lettuce and other green stuff that doesn't bear fruit. shit, i can't even grow a decent tomato in AP in full outdoor sunlight, at least not one that can compete with the size and flavor of tomatoes i grow in soil or that others grow in regular hydro. you can clone and veg all day with AP without nutes feeding them just about anything that will keep them alive, but there's just no way you can get decent harvest of a flowering species without adding some kind of nutes.

vermiponics has some potential, at least from what i've seen on youtube. dabbled in it, but want to get things ironed out before reintegrating worms.

i wish i could grow enough duckweed or alfalfa sprouts to feed them nothing but and see what happens, but that kind of feed takes a lot of space, which i don't have. maybe glass shrimp as feed?

it would be cool, though, to compare results with other people's grows that use a different approach to feed/nutrients.


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## haole420 (Sep 29, 2012)

four weeks, still no flush.
_*FOUR WEEKS, STILL NO FLUSH!*_
not one drop of H2O2 or any bennies


great white shark, looks like it'll finish in 8 or 9 weeks. solid, sooo fragrant.



silver haze, also coming along nicely. i'm thinking they'll be about 12 weeks. supercropped and bent the tall branches, bud sites only took a day to turn toward the light. much more even canopy height now, pruned some of the stuff below.


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## Demianwulf (Oct 2, 2012)

I really appreciate the advice!! I will definitely take all of this in and use your steps as a jump off point. I'm still a bit paranoid about posting on these sites with pics, but I'll document everything and make sure I keep detailed notes. Hopefully, I can get a journal started when I'm ready to begin, but for now I'm a student at all of this until I'm comfortable enough to take the plunge.


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## haole420 (Oct 2, 2012)

still no flush, no H2O2, no bennies.
system stable, chemistry stable.
solid nutrient uptake.
still need to hook up top-off res.



great white shark, getting sticky.



silver haze done stretching and filling in nicely.



roots just hanging out. photo color is a little off. roots still white, healthy, just hanging out with no airstones in the immediate vicinity and exposed to plenty of light. no algae. water clarity excellent without any more issues of food "crumbs" settling everywhere. i credit the barley/peat humates extract and pellet food. no issues with algae despite exposure to light. 



canopy leveled off nicely with LST (supercropping, bending).


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## grouch (Oct 3, 2012)

Are all those vortex filters and high pressure pumps necessary? My system is considerably smaller than most (it fits in a small stealth cab) but I haven't had a need for sediment filters.

I use a chift-pist (constant height in fish tank, pump in sump tank) setup because I had planned on making a bell siphon for the grow bed. I never got around to making the siphon and just left it running as a constant underflow with a standpipe to regulate water height in the grow bed. My grow bed is a 12qt sterilite tub that is set inside a 19qt sterilite tub (my sump tank) with a small 80gph pondmaster pump. My tank is one of those critter carriers kids use for catching insects and small reptiles in. I am using two 1/2 pvc slo (solid lifting overflow) drains in the tank to keep the water height constant and to clean the poop off the bottom. 

When it comes to this setup I like how simple it is the most. All I really have to do is feed the fish and train the plants. The fish poop, the overflow sends it to the grow bed, the plants filter it before it drains to the sump and the pump sends it back around again. 

For the fish I have been using guppies. They reproduce every 28 days and whichever ones they don't catch and eat the overflow gets. I keep finding little babies that make it all the way through the grow bed into the sump tank. I leave them there as they seem to help keep the sediment that used to settle there cleaned up. 

Do you think I should start a separate thread or should I post updates in this one?


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## haole420 (Oct 9, 2012)

Constant underflow sounds cool. No problem with roots drowning? I use a low pressure pump but for his stuff, he's planning on cramming it in a closet. Just don't think he can get adequate filtration without going with a higher pressure setup. I'm surprised you don't have problems with root fouling. I started off with no filtration, and got away with it for couple months, but eventually the roots suffocated. That's why I thinkusing roots to filter solids is a bad idea. Plants don't use the solids, they use the soluble nutrients that get dissolved in the water.

And I don't mind you posting to this thread. Anything AP is cool with me!


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## haole420 (Oct 9, 2012)

Oh and the vortex filters are low flow rate, low pressure. They work best with a really slow flow rate.

For higher pressure, the spindown filter or whole house filter would be ideal.

What are you growing in your system by the way? Veg? Flower?


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## grouch (Oct 9, 2012)

Here are some pics of my current setup. It is an NGB style cab with a remote ballast 42w cfl for flower and a 13w cfl for the fishes. The lights make it hard to see but you get the idea. The grow bed is a tub stacked inside a larger tub leaving a sump tank underneath.






This is the third AP grow in my cabinet. It is a Power Skunk and I am still unsure of the sex. I plan on filling the screen to about 75% and then flipping to 12/12. I only plan on letting the buds grow up along the sides of the 42w cfl and making it a micro vertical grow.


The first AP grow I supplemented some FF Big Bloom but not much as I didn't want to hurt the fish. It was also a vertical grow around the 42w but I let it get somewhat out of hand. I think I ended up with 13g off the one plant but could have down better had I trained it better.












The second grow was a male plant and it grew like crazy without any supplements. I cut it down as soon as I had some pollen.

Here is a pic of the inside of the fish tank (sorry the pic is sideways). You can see both of the solid lifting overflows. They suck up everything off the bottom of the tank and leave it clean. They dump straight into the grow bed without any filtering. I am also experimenting with using the fish tank for rooting clones. I figure if I let the cutting touch the water it might grow roots.







The plant looks nice and healthy and has a pretty good growth rate for how small the light is. Most of my posting has been done on ICMag. I don't know if I am allowed to link to my thread but here it is https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=138436 Most of the AP stuff happens at the end. Enjoy!


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## haole420 (Oct 10, 2012)

Nice! What kind of food are you using? Switching to a pellet helped out a lot. Have you considered using a smaller hps that you get in outdoor lights at home depot? I forget the wattage, but I think it was around 50-75Watts, maybe Less. We really need an AP subforum at riu...


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## grouch (Oct 10, 2012)

I am using a guppy growth mix that is preservative free right now. I also have some grow-max pellets that I give them for treats. Smashed peas and ground up worms will be added to the diet when I get around to it.

Yeah, if you read the thread I have a couple small hps and cmh bulbs to play with. Bad ventilation and 100% stealth are the reasons for the small bulb during the summer months. I am thinking about just tossing in another 42w on the right side of the main compartment when I switch to 12/12 and growing some clones around it. It doesn't take much supply to meet my demand.


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## haole420 (Oct 12, 2012)

On the road for another few days. My surrogate reports that the sump went dry after about 4 days. I guess i'm used to topping it off daily. trays were flooded for about 24hrs, but everybody survived. He reported a film on the surface, which i'm guessing is from anearobic activity. wish I had some enzymes, but told him to add the humic acid pond clarifier instead. Film could also be related to a dead crab he found in there

I really should've hooked up that top off res before I left! First thing I'll do when I get back.

He also reported some yellowing, which could be related to the stalled flow. Maybe low d.o. Caused lockout. Maybe not related

So far, only had mild yellowing in the beginning, which I determined was sulfur deficiency, and quickly corrected with epson salt. Hoping its just the same thing. 

He also said the silver haze was still stetching, the great white still going nuts, and the clippings also getting some bling

Should get the next update tonight...


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## haole420 (Oct 16, 2012)

so i'm back from my roadtrip and the babysitter did a good job keeping things alive. the sump went dry twice which caused the flood trays to stay flooded the first time and to stay dry the second time. luckily, the res was topped off in time to keep things from getting too wet/dry.



roots still look great, and still haven't flushed in almost 7 weeks.



great white shark looks good, but pretty far away from lights since the silver haze is so tall. might use some supplemental lighting.



the silver haze still stretching. looking like it needs at least another month. the little bud leaves have a downward curl. anybody know what that's all about?


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## grouch (Oct 18, 2012)

That clone on top of my tank is now sporting some nice roots. I flipped the flower switch on 10-15 and will soon know if its a boy or girl.


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## haole420 (Oct 21, 2012)

grouch said:


> That clone on top of my tank is now sporting some nice roots. I flipped the flower switch on 10-15 and will soon know if its a boy or girl.


what was the mother? if it's a clone, it's going to be genetically identical, including sex...


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## haole420 (Oct 23, 2012)

so nearly 8 weeks with no flush, no H2O2, no bennies, no problems. they're sucking up about 10gallons/day of water and about 100ppm/day of nutes. this is the most successful grow i've had to date with the most tric production. this grow might not win the pepsi challenge with others, but it's a personal best for me!



silver haze was getting too bushy with no light penetration, so plucked a lot of fan leaves, which i've always been against. trying it this time around and tric production still seems great. calyxes swelling and buds starting to fill in nicely. about a month to go, i think.



great white shark is just too far away from light. growth slowed, but still healthy. hoping to get around to putting in some side lighting with a spare 600watt reflector and ballast i have sitting around. that should get it to finish strong. amber trichs already visible, so maybe just another week. hoping to get all indica clones for the next round, which should keep things shorter and allow me to keep the lights right on top of them.


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## grouch (Oct 24, 2012)

haole420 said:


> what was the mother? if it's a clone, it's going to be genetically identical, including sex...


It's a clone of the same skunk plant in my flower room. I should know sex soon.


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## haole420 (Oct 25, 2012)

grouch said:


> It's a clone of the same skunk plant in my flower room. I should know sex soon.


then it should be female. sex of a clone won't change.


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## grouch (Oct 27, 2012)

haole420 said:


> then it should be female. sex of a clone won't change.


The plant in the flower room was grown from seed. I hope it is a female and you are right. I understand how clones work though.


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## haole420 (Nov 2, 2012)

grouch said:


> The plant in the flower room was grown from seed. I hope it is a female and you are right. I understand how clones work though.


Any news? Is it a keeper?


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## haole420 (Nov 2, 2012)

9wks and no flush. Pruned all the bigger fan leaves about a week ago. Stalled growth and nutrient uptake, which was about 100ppm/day. About three days after pruning, roots showed a lot of new, thick fish bone branching, then another three days later, new pistils and buds started really filling out. Nute uptake now 20ppm/day without fan leaves. I'm now a convert to pruning fan leaves, just not all at once, like i did this time.

Those ppm/day rates are only relevant to one's particular system. it's dependent on not only plants and solution, volume of system, number of plants, etc. Just mentioning those numbers here to illustrate the fact that plants with fan leaves were consuming 5x more nutrients with good trich production but not packing on a whole lot of bulk where it counts.

Water consumption also dropped from 10-15gal/day to about 2gal/day.

pH has been very stable. I top off with tap water that's been gassed off for a day and adjusted to 6.0. each day, that will nudge the ph upward. When i get to ~5.8, i switch to tap water bubbled and adjusted to 5.0 until my system gets down to 5.2, then back to 6.0 adjusted tap. I bubble the tap water 20 gal at a time in garbage can.

Cooler outdoor temps allowing me to save a little power by dialing down the light cooling fan as well as the room exhaust fan. Having trouble keeping up with low humidity though. Thinking about putting triple ultrasonic fogger back into action.

8x high output t5 fixture is hanging sideways, adding plenty of supplemental light to the indica, which was so far from the overhead 600w hps that it stopped growing. T5 is an inch away and shortie is now going nuts again.

Clippings that went straight under 12hr are all rooted and popping all kinds of pistils. None of them stretched at all. cloning straight to 12/12 without rooting might be the way to go next time with sativa. Micro sog?



fish putting on lots of weight, looking healthy and happy. all three crabs are now dead. pleco still doing great, snails laid some eggs. scavengers i put in the actual flood trays are looking pretty skinny, but i see them taking a dump all the time, so they must be eating something. they look pretty content and adapted to the constant ebb/flow. they pick at debris and algae on the roots, but don't really chomp on them or disturb them in any way that the plant seems to mind.



great white shark, with 8X HO-T5s to the right. you can see the old pistils dried and turned orange. introduction of side lighting brought it back to life. all the white pistils are new growth from the last few days. rotating 1/4 turn every other day.



silver haze continues to fill in. every day i go in there, it looks different! in some of the photos, you can see trichs already turning amber. still a three or four weeks away from the chop. going to let them go until they start to kick the bucket or thanksgiving is upon us, whichever comes first.


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## intenseneal (Nov 5, 2012)

Very nice grow. I am also doing a T5 grow and have been thinking about trying aquaponics.


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## intenseneal (Nov 5, 2012)

Very nice grow. I am also doing a T5 grow and have been thinking about trying aquaponics.


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## haole420 (Nov 5, 2012)

intenseneal said:


> Very nice grow. I am also doing a T5 grow and have been thinking about trying aquaponics.


thanks!

i'm actually impressed with how much the T5 side lighting is helping.

what spectrum bulbs are you using? 3k? i think i'm still using 6.5k from veg.

the effect of the side lighting noticeably drops off after about 1ft. the lower growth that's out of range of the overhead HPS and the side lighting is still fluffy and doesn't look like it's going to do much.


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## intenseneal (Nov 7, 2012)

I am still using 6.5K as well. Going with a mix of 3k 6.5k and 660nm bulbs for flowering.


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## grouch (Nov 7, 2012)

haole420 said:


> Any news? Is it a keeper?


Saw the first pistils yesterday! The scrog is working just the way I am wanting too.


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## haole420 (Nov 8, 2012)

grouch said:


> Saw the first pistils yesterday! The scrog is working just the way I am wanting too.


sweet! how long has it been under 12/12?


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## haole420 (Nov 8, 2012)

almost 10 weeks, still no flush.



silver haze starting to form some nice nugs. soo sticky! bent stems are getting heavy, so i have to string them up now. the aroma matures daily. i should be able to tell when they're done when they get "that" smell.


great white shark was already turning amber before i put in the T5 side lighting a week or two ago, but i'm going to let it go until the silver haze finishes. will keep it as my CBD medicinal stash. still alive and kicking with plenty of new growth every day.


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## aquaponic (Nov 8, 2012)

Nice Work Broo!!! Greatings from Brasil!


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## HeartlandHank (Nov 8, 2012)

Yeah, nice. This is the first cannabis aquaponics I have seen.
I've got a culinary herb aquaponics setup... Just 9 fat goldfish keep me stocked in the kitchen


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## grouch (Nov 8, 2012)

haole420 said:


> sweet! how long has it been under 12/12?





grouch said:


> I flipped the flower switch on 10-15 and will soon know if its a boy or girl.


three weeks or so


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## grouch (Nov 9, 2012)

Here is an update of the scrog aquaponic grow I have going. It is a 42w cfl that has been remote ballasted.


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## haole420 (Nov 9, 2012)

grouch said:


> Here is an update of the scrog aquaponic grow I have going. It is a 42w cfl that has been remote ballasted.


Nice. Taking notes, as I'd like to eventually build a mini ap system.

How did you remote ballast the cfl? Separate bulb and ballast and just run wires? Good idea!


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## haole420 (Nov 9, 2012)

Nice to see more ap enthusiasts on riu!


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## grouch (Nov 10, 2012)

haole420 said:


> Nice. Taking notes, as I'd like to eventually build a mini ap system.
> 
> How did you remote ballast the cfl? Separate bulb and ballast and just run wires? Good idea!


DIY 42w CFL Remote ballast


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## intenseneal (Nov 11, 2012)

Looking very nice OP. Are you adding any nutes, camg or sweeteners to the water? This is appealing to me since I love fish, I have a 37G fresh water planted tank for my daughter and a 75G reef tank and I enjoy growing my own medical so putting the 2 together will be fun.


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## haole420 (Nov 12, 2012)

intenseneal said:


> Looking very nice OP. Are you adding any nutes, camg or sweeteners to the water? This is appealing to me since I love fish, I have a 37G fresh water planted tank for my daughter and a 75G reef tank and I enjoy growing my own medical so putting the 2 together will be fun.


everything is pretty much the same as hydro. feed as you normally would, any kind of nutes or supplements. no need for bennies, no h2o2 as that would kill all the good stuff. and you don't feed often, because you never flush. i feed to 1000ppm, then wait until it's down to 500ppm before i feed again.

you don't need to deliberately add nitrogen, but if it happens to be in your micro or calmag, i don't think that's a big deal. my fish food only contains about 1% phosphorus, which never proved to be enough during flowering without bottled nutes. if you're into all organic, check out vermiponics.

the only thing that gets depleted often is sulfur. i think it's slowly gassing off. i don't think it's unique to aquaponics, it's just that hydro growers never keep their solution around long enough for this to happen. you never flush with aquaponics, so the gassing off effect (if sulfur does, indeed, gas off) is noticeable over time. i now add a tablespoon of epsom salt to my 100gallon system every other week. if it's not gassing off, then my plants must just be sulfur-hungry.

what size of a system are you thinking of building?


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## grouch (Nov 16, 2012)

I put 3 more clones into flower on the 15th. One was mainlined the other two were small single stem clones. I also added a remote ballast 55w cfl to the flower section. I put the 55w and the 42w in a cool tube to see what would happen to my temp. The whole setup with the lights on during flower and the fans running draws 150w. It only draws 40w during lights out. The veg room runs a 26w cfl that gives enough light to clone under.


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## haole420 (Nov 17, 2012)

grouch said:


> I put 3 more clones into flower on the 15th. One was mainlined the other two were small single stem clones. I also added a remote ballast 55w cfl to the flower section. I put the 55w and the 42w in a cool tube to see what would happen to my temp. The whole setup with the lights on during flower and the fans running draws 150w. It only draws 40w during lights out. The veg room runs a 26w cfl that gives enough light to clone under.


what strain are you working with? the narrow fingers look like a sativa.


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## haole420 (Nov 17, 2012)

silver haze just keeps going. lots of new new pistils every day, but a lot of them starting to turn orange. looking about 50% clear, 50% milky.



great white shark slowing down. still getting new pistils, just not as many. about 15% clear, 80% white, 5% amber. waiting for more amber. i want this one to have more CBD.



freebie seedlings, unknown strain. they cracked after about 4 days on top of the air-cooled reflector. they don't seem to mind the 1000ppm aquaponic water.


next update will be just before i chop...


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## grouch (Nov 17, 2012)

haole420 said:


> what strain are you working with? the narrow fingers look like a sativa.


some power skunk freebies I got a couple years back


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## grouch (Nov 25, 2012)

With outdoor temps dropping I am able to run bigger and bigger lights in my cab. In the cool tube right now is a 100w cmh with a 42w remote ballast cfl providing some support lighting to some of the newer plants in veg. The whole system is running at 200w with pumps, fans, and all lights running. My water temps are not sitting very high right now and I am debating if I should add a small heater to the tank. The fish are not as spunky as normal and do not seem to eat as much. The water temps are in the low 60's.


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## haole420 (Nov 26, 2012)

grouch said:


> With outdoor temps dropping I am able to run bigger and bigger lights in my cab. In the cool tube right now is a 100w cmh with a 42w remote ballast cfl providing some support lighting to some of the newer plants in veg. The whole system is running at 200w with pumps, fans, and all lights running. My water temps are not sitting very high right now and I am debating if I should add a small heater to the tank. The fish are not as spunky as normal and do not seem to eat as much. The water temps are in the low 60's.


maybe it's time to move the ballast(s) back into the cab? what are your air temps running at?


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## haole420 (Nov 26, 2012)

Day 87: new pistils on great white shark have finally stopped. giving it just a few more days to plump up. trichs 80/20 white/amber. silver haze turned white top to bottom but new pistils still going and continues to bulk up. amber on the underlit undergrowth, but mostly white. still at least a week left, i think.


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## grouch (Nov 26, 2012)

haole420 said:


> maybe it's time to move the ballast(s) back into the cab? what are your air temps running at?


Low 60's during lights off and mid 70's when on. I will probably pick up a small tank water heater while I am out today. The fish have a right to be comfy so they can concentrate on pooping.


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## grouch (Nov 26, 2012)

I will try and get some pics up soon. The main plant in flower has been in there for over five weeks now. The smaller plants are still recovering from the transplant and flip on the 15th. I hope it limits the stretch of them some as they transition to flower. I'm also hoping the uv of the cmh bulb will translate into some extra trichs come harvest time.


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## grouch (Nov 26, 2012)

Installed a 25w water heater w/ thermostat. Brought the total system power to 229w. Hoping the guppies will perk back up now and start eating more. The warmer water temps might help me keep my air temps up when the flower lights are off too.


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## haole420 (Dec 3, 2012)

finally chopped the great white shark, which went for 91 days/13 weeks. will post yield after drying/curing.


the pics don't do it justice! the bigger colas are as thick as an arm. heavy, sticky, and still popping new pistils. i think at least two more weeks still left. most seed banks list silver haze as a roughly 10-week strain. it'll be about 15 weeks when i chop. trichs still mostly milky, not much amber.


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## grouch (Dec 4, 2012)

Looks real good. Do you think AP systems just might take a little longer to flower?


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## haole420 (Dec 5, 2012)

grouch said:


> Looks real good. Do you think AP systems just might take a little longer to flower?


That's my hunch. This has happened almost every ap grow before. My guess is that because nitrogen stays high the whole time, it just keeps going. Cant complain though. They're bulking up like crazy. Orange pistils finally reaching the top but after another feed (cns17 bloom, liquid karma, final drive, kool bloom), another round of fresh, plump, white pistils sprang up everywhere! Trichs still not showing a major shift to amber.


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## intenseneal (Dec 5, 2012)

So you can add in nutes to the water and it does not effect the fish? I was wondering this. AP just looks like fun.


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## haole420 (Dec 5, 2012)

intenseneal said:


> So you can add in nutes to the water and it does not effect the fish? I was wondering this. AP just looks like fun.


well, yes and no. you can add nutes but it does adversely affect most fish. i probably went through about 200-300 goldfish, feeder fish, and local species pulled from a stream. only about 20 or so survived, but are very, very well adapted. i just wish i had a female in there to breed.


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## haole420 (Dec 5, 2012)

all kinds of craziness going on during week 13!!!


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## Duckweed Dan (Dec 6, 2012)

Congrats to all for trying Aquaponics. I can help with that part of it. 
First and foremost is that you have to adjust everything for the fish. The fish really dictate the system since they supply the engine or the nutrients for the plants and believe me this nutrient really works. So the added nutrients that you use should be at the bare minimum. Which this is possible once the system is up and running properly. You could literally run this system with a solution of seaweed and kelp along with a solution of bat guano. You just have to be careful when you add supplements such as Cal-Mag or Silica among others.
Depending on the fish, you should keep water temp at no less than 60 degrees. I use Tilapia and they stop eating at any lower temps.
In order to deal with the amount of fish waste you have to create a Biofilter which is nothing more than a tub, 36 inches by 24 inches with 3/4 inch pea gravel and a bell siphon. Then you add red worms, red wigglers, and they consume the solid waste leaving the nutrient water.
Just some basics for you.


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## haole420 (Dec 6, 2012)

Duckweed Dan said:


> Congrats to all for trying Aquaponics. I can help with that part of it.
> First and foremost is that you have to adjust everything for the fish. The fish really dictate the system since they supply the engine or the nutrients for the plants and believe me this nutrient really works. So the added nutrients that you use should be at the bare minimum. Which this is possible once the system is up and running properly. You could literally run this system with a solution of seaweed and kelp along with a solution of bat guano. You just have to be careful when you add supplements such as Cal-Mag or Silica among others.
> Depending on the fish, you should keep water temp at no less than 60 degrees. I use Tilapia and they stop eating at any lower temps.
> In order to deal with the amount of fish waste you have to create a Biofilter which is nothing more than a tub, 36 inches by 24 inches with 3/4 inch pea gravel and a bell siphon. Then you add red worms, red wigglers, and they consume the solid waste leaving the nutrient water.
> Just some basics for you.


first off, duckweed, glad to see another ap enthusiast on riu!

yes, those are the basics and i tried it that way for about 4 or 5 crops and it grows shitty weed. the few other indoor ap cannabis grows i've seen online aren't anything to write home about either. i have yet to see an indoor aquaponic cannabis grow that produced a yield or potency (trichs) anywhere close to a "regular" hydro grow.

purist aquaponics is great for lettuce, greens, and vegging cannabis, but not good for flowering big, sticky buds. even with decent sized nugs for the wattage i was throwing at it, resin production was minimal with pure aquaponics. you get a ton of N and not nearly enough P and especially K.

i agree, vermipoinics is the holy grail, and i tried that too but not with this new system. honestly, i'm not after a purist ap system. i'm after a system that's tuned for churning out high quality cannabis. i may revisit vermiponics later. the red worms i used were thriving in the hydroton and reproducing, but when i tore down my experimental systems (4 of them), i lost the worms in the process. the problem with using food scraps was also that it attracted pests. bananas were especially notorious for introducing fruit flies into my room. i don't want to risk introducing any pests into my grow room, so fresh (or rotten produce) is simply forbidden.

fish will thrive in a wide ph and temp range. tetra, for instance, are known to tolerate ph as low as 4. not all fish can deal with this, but some will, and those are the ones you want. mine aren't jumpy and eat, sleep, and poop just fine. unfortunately, that means many fishies had to give their lives for the sake of my grow room, but i can live with that.

_*the fish are not the key to the system. the nitro bacteria are.*_

the fish do nothing for the plants. i could actually just pour ammonia into the system at this point to feed the nitro bacteria and forget about the fish altogether. the nitro bacteria displace pathogens that would otherwise cause kill a terrestrial plant in an aqueous environment. that's the ONLY reason i run aquaponics in my grow room. the extra nitrogen is just a bonus. feeding fish is cheaper, easier, and more fun than adding ammonia, so i keep them around 

i'm not growing tilapia or any fish i plan to eat. the naturally selected fish are very well adapted to this environment and are thriving. when they get big, i turn them out to pasture where they can live out the rest of their lives in 7.0 ph 0ppm rain water in my outdoor "pure" ap system that i grow food and fish that i eat.

when you don't have to worry about slime and root rot, you don't have to do res changes, you don't have to chill the res, you don't have to sterilize, and you don't have to add bennies. all this fussing is just a normal part of hydro growing. you can take a lot of maintenance out of the picture once you get risk of root disease under control.

the optimal ph for nitro bacteria is 7.0-7.5. however, at that range, you will get scale (soap scum) as soon as a high phosphorus fertilizer hits the water with calcium in it. those precipitated nutrients will foul the roots and pump and eventually kill the plants and even the pump in a very short time. i've done it, multiple times, so i know. in pure ap, you're not adding anything, so high ph and nutrient precipitation are not issues.

dialing pH down to 5.2-6.5 range (i usually stay below 6.0), which is ideal for the plants, caused NH3/NH4 ammonia to shoot up to around 4ppm. i'm presuming most of the nitro bacteria died, but some survived and reproduced. successive generations of nitro bacteria further selected low-ph-tolerant nitro bacteria and now, many, many generations later, i have a nitro bacteria colony that is fully adapted to ph range of 5-6. the last time i checked ammonia, i had just a hint, barely registering. i have yet to test for nitrate, nitrites, but the fish, plants, and bacteria colony all seem pretty happy.

all that said, don't get me wrong: i love aquaponics and think it is the future of food production, but pure aquaponics has its limitations, especially when it comes to growing weed.

next grow i'm going to use general organics nutes only, so stay tuned. adding guano is a good idea too, but i'm trying to keep the amount of solids i add to my system to a minimum.

any plans for an ap cannabis grow, duckweed?.


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## grouch (Dec 9, 2012)

I have been adding a little bit of tiger bloom to the water I add. I use it as my "ph down" to get to 6.0 and the fish don't seem to mind. I wonder if autoflower growers would experience longer flowering times as well. I tried a couple autos before and they could have used a bit more time to bulk up.


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## haole420 (Dec 9, 2012)

grouch said:


> I have been adding a little bit of tiger bloom to the water I add. I use it as my "ph down" to get to 6.0 and the fish don't seem to mind. I wonder if autoflower growers would experience longer flowering times as well. I tried a couple autos before and they could have used a bit more time to bulk up.


yeah, i don't know what it is about the longer flowering times. kind of nice, though, to have that extra time to fully bulk up. my guess is that it is the higher nitrogen content and/or the availability of so many different forms of nitrogen (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate).

as far as toxicity goes, here's what i've dug up so far. mostly focused on NPK.

ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate toxicity is well-documented on forums and in articles about aquarium fish and aquaculture

http://lakes.chebucto.org/DATA/PARAMETERS/TP/ccmesummary.pdf
says phosphorus not directly toxic to fish, but can promote algae growth and therefore lower DO

http://www.plantedtank.net/articles/Fertilizers-in-a-Planted-Tank/1/
potassium not toxic to fish

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/4064450?uid=3739928&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21101533444037
KCl (potassium chloride) toxic to bluegill at 1360ppm

IBA and other hormones are supposed to be toxic to humans and animals, but cloning gel, IBA powder, and the hormones in superthrive and final drive never caused a die-off in my systems.

i'm not too concerned about calmag and micronutes. fish need all that shit anyway, just like we do. aquarists add PK and micronutes to their aquarium to feed aquatic plants all the time.

for the bleeding-heart fish-rights activists on this forum to suggest that i'm torturing the fish is just ridiculous. i may have "tortured" 90% of them, but they didn't suffer too long. they usually died within a week if not days or hours of being dumped into the system. the 10% that survived never get sick, are constantly growing and putting on weight, having lots of sex, and seem to be living a pretty happy fish life. some are more than two years old.

i haven't had a fish die since the last time i added fish from the pet store 4 months ago. if they were being tortured, stressed, or otherwise abused, they'd all be dead by now. death is a very necessary part of finding the RIGHT fish. it's just like planting 10 seeds and culling out the weak ones. why should i adjust my system to accommodate 100% of the fish? then my plants will suffer. doesn't make sense whatsoever. this is a weed-growing system, not a fish-growing system.


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## haole420 (Dec 20, 2012)

so i chopped, did a rough trim, and dried whole for 4 days. cured with garbage bags on and off for 3 days, then did a final trim, snipped it from the stem, sorted, weighed, and jarred.

*total weight: *1169.1g = 41-3/4 oz =* 2lbs 9-3/4oz

popcorn: *216.4g = *7-3/4oz

nuggets: *952.7g = 34 oz = *2lbs 2oz *

i thought it was going to be closer to 12-16oz! sweet! still a lot of optimization i need to do, but my best harvest to date. super dank, a little speedy at first, but more stoney than high.

and for what it's worth:

1456watt light total (600+600+256)
0.8g/watt
1817kwh (1456watt * 104d * 12h / 1000)
0.64g/kwh

note that the lights were dimmed by digital ballast for the first few weeks. side lighting wasn't added until about a month or so into the grow. to keep things simple and to be conservative in my calculations, i just went with max wattage for the entire duration.

silver haze 5oz/plant. it was pretty crowded. i probably would've gotten the same yield with about 1/2 as many plants with just another week or two of veg time.

great white shark 1-1/3oz/plant. it was neglected in the shadows until i popped in the side lighting, which helped, but was too little too late.


Day 104, just before the chop. last 2 days lights were out 24hrs.


made a 3' tall/wide funnel with heavy masking paper to catch clippings directly into my (dry) bubble bucket bags. i'll turn the trim into bubble hash.


the big jar on the left is the popcorn, which will be turned into honey with butane/vacuum. the small jar and baggie in front of it is great white (28g nugs, 10g popcorn). the other jars and baggies are silver haze. the two baggies on the right are 1/2oz each, which gives you a size reference.

still room for improvement and a few issues that need to be addressed with the system/approach in general (which i'll get into later), but i finally managed to pull off a respectable proof-of-concept grow without a single res change, not one drop of H2O2, no bennies, no chilling.


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## Warlock1369 (Dec 20, 2012)

Now that is some great info. Love AP. Im really looking to doing this soon.


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## haole420 (Dec 21, 2012)

so the main thing that came up was persistently high nitrate levels toward the end of the grow. this started after i pruned most of the fan leaves. nutrient uptake slowed for several days, and never got back to the rate it was at, which is expected, since there is less foliage to feed.

ppms got stuck at 1000-1100ppm, spiking close to 1300ppm at one point. so for an entire month, i wasn't adding any nutrients. it only occurred to me after i realized that i was having an iron deficiency (misdiagnosed as a sulfur deficiency) that there were some lockout issues. turns out high nitrates will lockout iron. so i started feeding the plants again (bloom and ripener). sure enough, they were sucking up what i was feeding them at a rate of about 40ppm/day. the "baseline" ppm didn't change though, it never went below 1000ppm. never solved iron deficiency or lockout issue, so i'm pretty sure it's from high nitrates. should take care of itself once i get nitrates down.

it didn't occur to me until a few weeks ago to use a freshwater aquarium master test kit to find out the composition of my water. i wiped the dry-erase board i was logging readings on, so i don't have the exact figures anymore, but just prior to harvest, i had 500+ppm nitrate (ammonia and nitrite negligible) and about 300+ppm calmag (hardness). the other 200ppm (give or take) i attribute to micronutrients and simply a difference in scales for the test strips vs the digital test meter.

so to remedy this, i removed half the fish, the biggest/oldest ones, started feeding a lot less, and turned them out to pasture in my outdoor system, which is always nearly at 0ppm. in the last week, total ppm final started dropping below 1000. there's just 2 seedlings going on in there right now, so i don't expect much of the drop off to be attributable to them.

i plan to vacuum out the solids in the next few days, use all that organic decaying matter for outdoor fertilizer.

i'm sure during full-on veg and first few weeks of flowering, nitrate uptake will be enough to balance out the system again, but i need to come up with a "nitrate sink" for when nitrogen requirements drop off again. i have two ideas:

1. plant a fast-growing green crop like mint that mostly needs nitrates. ideally, nitrate uptake by the mint would outpace nitrogen production. advantages: simple. disadvantages: doesn't have the added benefit of actually digesting organic solids, could also bring in or invite pests to the room, although i've never seen bugs chomping on my mint outside.

2. integrate a small anaerobic digestor (biogas) and/or a slow sand filter. both get seeded with anaerobic septic tank bacteria. advantages: not only breaks down nitrates into N2 gas, also breaks down solids from fish, fish food, and organic nutrients. disadvantages: complex to set up and tune, bacteria also remove some phosphates and micronutrients.

i like the idea of an anaerobic digestor/filter, as it doubles as a composter. i should be able to just drop some banana puree or other nutritious whole foods in there to boost the PK. with vermiponics, you have to avoid citrus, meat, greasy stuff, dairy, all of which the digestor should be able to process. not that i'd necessarily want to add that stuff in there, but it's not as finicky.

with vermiponics, you're still going to be dealing with organic solids running through your system. with the digestor/filter, it not only filters out the solids, it will digest them. i doubt it will produce enough biogas, but i should potentially be able to run a small bunsen burner to convert the methane to CO2!

second, i went a little overboard with the pruning of fan leaves all at once. i think the way to go is incrementally, on an as needed basis as buds start to fill out.

third, an inch or two away from the glass of the reflectors was way to close. due to lack of training, i had to get the lights as close as i could to penetrate to the lower parts of the canopy. better training or scrogging would help. also, i think the ideal distance for 600watt air cooled is about 1ft from the glass. buds in that range were well-balanced with respect to size and frostiness. part of the problem was that i ran out of vertical clearance. i should be able to eek out another 4-6" by redesigning the boom and pulley system. i think i'm going to split the boom in half so each light can be at a different height (indica on side, sativa on the other).

fourth, i noticed that the stems that were directly blown on by the oscillating fan had dried out leaves, fewer trichs, and were smaller. using indirect air circulation by "bouncing" the air off of the wall first, which diffuses it and lowers the velocity. i may need a few more solid state fan controllers to slow them down a bit more. i think 2 or 3 indirect, slowed fans is better than 1 big one directly blasting one side of the grow. it also caused them to lean away from the fan, even on low setting. i had to tie them up to keep them from falling over.

fifth, the T5 array helped provide side lighting, but i think i would've been better off just putting in another 600watts HPS. the 8X T5 draws just under 300watts. i have a spare digital ballast and reflector. thinking of rigging it up and turning it just in the last month or so. might try mixing spectrums at the end, maybe running MH in the first few weeks to keep things under control during the stretch.

switching to general organics next time. two seedlings a few weeks old vegging now under the T5s. i'll probably get a few clones and throw them under there as well as backup in case seedlings turn out to be male. planning to veg until end of january, maybe longer. i'll probably go with 4 plants next time. when i make the switch to 12/12, i'll start a new thread.

thanks for tuning in!


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## WOLFMANIZ (Dec 28, 2012)

Nice harvest you got there for yourself way to go.. take that all you Nay Sayers Aquaponics rocks and with very little effort and great highs..
It may take longer to grow but if you keep up with clones and new plants you can have all the weed you need until the next plant is harvested.
When I want to get high I just go to my plants and pick a bud stick it in a bowl and toke away. The longer the plant grows the more potent it gets.
So if you have different strains going you have different tastes different highs what more can you ask for with the cost and the effort you put into it?
Haole240 great job and great promotion for ap.....keep up the good work....


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## haole420 (Dec 29, 2012)

WOLFMANIZ said:


> Nice harvest you got there for yourself way to go.. take that all you Nay Sayers Aquaponics rocks and with very little effort and great highs..
> It may take longer to grow but if you keep up with clones and new plants you can have all the weed you need until the next plant is harvested.
> When I want to get high I just go to my plants and pick a bud stick it in a bowl and toke away. The longer the plant grows the more potent it gets.
> So if you have different strains going you have different tastes different highs what more can you ask for with the cost and the effort you put into it?
> Haole240 great job and great promotion for ap.....keep up the good work....


thanks, wolfman. vegging from seed for another month before going at it again. some nirvana freebee seeds and a maui wowie x blackberry in the mix. hope they're all female! also making a few mods to the system.

speaking of flavor, the haze has a remarkable flavor now that it's cured for about 2 weeks. some described it as cinnamon or minty. lots of essential oils. the flavor is more concentrated and even more pronounced in the honey butane extract.

my ap bud always seems to have a underlying "earthy" element to it flavor-wise. it's not a bad taste and it's not "fishy," but it is distinctive. i'm thinking it's all the organics going on in there. ap bridges the gap between soil and hydro. it creates more complex and subtle aromas like soil and is similar to soil in terms of having a naturally occurring beneficial microbe colony, but you still get the performance (yield, potency) of hydro.

despite the long time flowering, it's pretty well-balanced between high/stoney. no couch-lock, but does hit you hard.

stay tuned for my next ap + general organics grow starting in a few weeks, maybe february 1...


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## grouch (Dec 29, 2012)

A couple ideas for you after reading your summary. About the nitrate uptake, could trimming the plant heavily be a good way to cause a lockout and be used to flush at the end of flowering? I ask this because I am thinking a perpetual grow may work out very well to keep a constant uptake of nitrates going on in the grow beds. The only downside I see to perpetual is not being able to flush the plants at the end of flowering. Planting clones into the system at three or four intervals will keep a constant plant load coming into and out of flowering.


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## haole420 (Dec 30, 2012)

grouch said:


> A couple ideas for you after reading your summary. About the nitrate uptake, could trimming the plant heavily be a good way to cause a lockout and be used to flush at the end of flowering? I ask this because I am thinking a perpetual grow may work out very well to keep a constant uptake of nitrates going on in the grow beds. The only downside I see to perpetual is not being able to flush the plants at the end of flowering. Planting clones into the system at three or four intervals will keep a constant plant load coming into and out of flowering.


That's an idea, but it's not easy to dial it in to exactly where you want it. With perpetual, even if you pluck some, the others will still be sucking up nitrates, so it would take a lot to push nitrates to a high enough level to lockout other stuff. Also, all your plants would be locked out, not just the ones your trying to flush.

Goes back to the debate of importance of flushing vs curing. Personally, i think its all in the cure. Nit saying that flushing doesn't so anything, just that if you cure properly, it's unnecessary.

Couldn't find any aquarium products that neutralize nitrates. Only way is to dump some water, add more plants (maybe "helper" crop of greens or herbs), or add anaerobic zones in which the microbes turn nitrates into n2 gas and methane.

Planning to add an anaerobic digester before next round.


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## grouch (Jan 2, 2013)

Ever read about the "walstad method"? It uses a dirt substrate underneath a layer(cap) of sand in a fish tank. It is used for planted tanks to grow plants but I think it could be used in a ap setup to create the anaerobic zone and to release some fertilizer at the same time. Fish people seem to prefer miracle grow organic choice potting mix. It wouldn't work if there is a ton of water movement over the substrate as it would stir it up and make a mess.


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## haole420 (Jan 8, 2013)

grouch said:


> Ever read about the "walstad method"? It uses a dirt substrate underneath a layer(cap) of sand in a fish tank. It is used for planted tanks to grow plants but I think it could be used in a ap setup to create the anaerobic zone and to release some fertilizer at the same time. Fish people seem to prefer miracle grow organic choice potting mix. It wouldn't work if there is a ton of water movement over the substrate as it would stir it up and make a mess.


i heard of it, and was actually considering doing something very similar. i tried vermiponics and didn't like it. i ditched vermiponics for the same reason i ditched this idea, which is the fact that you can't really control how much ionic nutrients come out of a given amount of organic fertilizer. if you add too much, you won't know until it's too late, and all this organic matter just sits in your system until it's fully digested, which could take months. if it's not enough, you won't know until it's too late either.

so was reading a thread on organic soil growers and how the lively up their soil first to predigest the organic soilds before putting any plants in it.

i'm basically going to do the same thing in a 5-gallon water jug. i'll add my organic fert with some septic bacteria, convert as much of the nitrogen to methane as i can, break down the solids, and burn the biogas for whatever infinitesimal amount of free co2 i can get from it. i'll then drop it into a slow sand filter, which is also a kind of anaerobic digestor that purifies turbid drinking water. after bubbling it off with plenty of oxygen for a day to kill off anaerobic microbes, i've basically got "ionic" nutes.

my goal is to "brew" my own ionic nutes from bottled organic nutes and ultimately some food scraps. the NPK numbers i start with won't mean a thing, but at least i can control ppm.

i like the like of trying to mimic nature with anaerobic zones within the system itself, but the problem with rotting organic matter in your system is that it will keep your ppms high until it's done rotting. it's really hard to control the process, which is why i decided to separate it out. after brewing my own "organic ionic" nutes, i can test it, ph adjust it, adjust the concentration, even store it in a bottle before adding it to my system.

i could get fancy and ferment my veg, flower, ripener in different jugs, but i'm just going to dump the stuff in the there and keep it simple.

almost done with adding on a veg tray that runs off the same system. actually considering switching over to perpetual harvest with just a few big shrubs. i think it will help keep my nitrates in check. planning to veg out a few seedlings until the end of the month. already took some clippings and will sex as soon as they're rooted. no preflowers yet.


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## grouch (Jan 10, 2013)

My whole reason for doing aquaponics was to keep it simple. Add water, add fish, add food, and pump.


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## haole420 (Jan 13, 2013)

grouch said:


> My whole reason for doing aquaponics was to keep it simple. Add water, add fish, add food, and pump.


i hear you. i just couldn't get the results i wanted with fish food alone. even vermiponics didn't cut it. i don't even feed fish or add water manually. that's all on autopilot, so i have plenty of time to shake my digestor once a day and burn off any accumulated methane. i plan to get around to building it next week.

i think the digestor is pretty simple. just a 5-gallon jug and some fittings. sand filter is pretty much a 5-gallon bucket with a hole in it.

i want to be able to digest bananas along with other food scraps. digestor would be perfect to dispose of leaves, stems, clippings, roots from chopped plants! let the digestor just break that stuff down, turn it back into ionic form, and feed it back to the plants. that's what organic soil growers already do: they cultivate the soil with decaying organic matter, poop, microbes. i want to create the equivalent for hydro.

the second stage slow sand filter removes the remaining solids from the digestor effluent and further breaks them down into ionic form. saw a guy on youtube that was doing the same 2-stage process the organic matter in his kitchen grey water. first ferment it, then filter it.


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## ornot2p (Mar 19, 2013)

wow haole420! great job! very impressive indeed!


im about to start an AP grow myself but i just got kinda weary about the nutrition of plants during flowering, although im completely opent to an AP/hydro setup like you say. have you ever heard of Murray Hallam, he has some great resources online on AP, this is the traller of an in depth DVD of his: http://youtu.be/btUZBk8G1xk.


one thing he specifically stresses out is the need for chelated iron in AP. it just made me remember of your post on the misinterpreted lack of iron issue, towards the end of flowering.

hey, are you really gonna start a new AP grow anytime soon? id def like to follow along and who knows grow along!

cheers mate! keep up the good work!


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## 2easy (Jul 25, 2013)

Im sorry did someone say aquaponics doesnt yield well or have dank nugs. oh man that sucks i better throw all this out then because its prolly shit hey?


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## diesel878 (Aug 15, 2013)

Great work all of you! You are pioneers and I hope your persistence pays off! Just starting out in ap. very excited! Any words of advise greatly appreciated. Peace


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## 2easy (Aug 15, 2013)

be patient. it can take a little while to cycle your system and get it running but it is well worth the effort. 
keep some potassium hydroxide or potassium sulphate handy just in case your potassium levels are low in your first run. 

share your grow at oceangrown.forumotion.com if you can its my own site. kind of just a blog at the moment but i would love to have more people posting there efforts plus i check it daily and could help you out along the way


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## dank_frank (Jul 13, 2015)

2easy said:


> Im sorry did someone say aquaponics doesnt yield well or have dank nugs. oh man that sucks i better throw all this out then because its prolly shit hey?


Yeahhhhh!


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## dank_frank (Jul 13, 2015)

Aquaponic systems are not hydroponic systems. we really should stop using numerical values based on hydroponics and apply it to aquaponics. 

1400ppm is aquaponics? That's absurd!!! Ideal systems run at 0ppm. I know that's hard for everyone to get their heads around. But "ideally" there is a perfect balance and the plants use the nutes at the same rate they are supplies via fish waste to bacteria. 

In my experience, running anything higher than 100ppm really throws everything off and plants get stunted. 

Filtration is a must! So is patience! Systems can take over a year to fully stabilize and produce. From my experience, the best and most simple system is a CHIFT PIST (constant height in fish tank, pump in sump tank). This system also requires red wriggler worms to mineralize the fish waste, oxygenate your grow beds, and provide micronutrients. 

Supplementation is a MUST for any aquaponics system. Iron, and potassium are needed for any growing crop, and other fertilizers with P must be added to grow cannabis. And that can be tricky...

Anyway, hydroponics to me is just silly. My ph never swings always 6.4. I can't get an ammonia spike, which means my bacteria break down waste almost immediately and turn in to solvable fish food. I have never had a deficiency, ever. 

Don't be fooled. Aquaponics is not easy, at first. But once your system is running and dialed in all you have to do is feed your fish, add water, and occasional supplements.


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