# Veganics Cheat sheet



## malignant (Apr 4, 2012)

There is a line of veganic nutrients, its called BioCanna, kyle kushman is supposed to be working on a line through one of the major distributors that will be all veganic. 

Here are the pertinent posts and formulas for the veganic growers quick reference. there is a lot of information on here, so be mindful when skimming. 

There isnt an faq as of yet couldn't figure out what to put, if anyone else wants to do one pm me, and well get it posted and you credited.

Happy hunting:


Matt Rize said:


> Taken from a wise old man who goes by CT Guy
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=110620&highlight=AACT
> 
> "It's Tea Time!
> ...





Matt Rize said:


> "How to make EM-FPE (Fermented Plant Extract)
> For centuries extracts have been used as elixirs for all sorts of ailments. Individuals would seek out certain plant materials that were known for their beneficial properties and ferment them to extract the desired benefits. This same technology can be used to extract properties from plants such as geranium to make a citronella extra for keeping away mosquitoes. Hot peppers and garlic are also known for their pest-deterring properties. If you incorporate companion planting (basil with tomato), you may find a winning combination to give the effect you want.
> 
> Weeds and other green material can be recycled into an organic foliar spray and insect repellent. During fermentation EM-1 is able to ferment weeds and extract organic acids, bio-active substances, minerals, and other useful organic compounds from these materials which are able to promote plant growth and repel diseases or insects.
> ...





Matt Rize said:


> http://www.permaculture.org/nm/images/uploads/Indigenous_Microorganisms.pdf
> "Lacto Bacilli
> One of the major workhorse beneficial indigenous microorganism used in natural farming is lacto bacilli. This particular beneficial microorganism is popularly used in composting that specifically arrest foul odors associated with anaerobic decomposition. Lactic acid bacteria thrive and feed on the ammonia released in the decomposition normally associated with foul odors. So if you need to decompose or ferment wastes less foul odors, lactic acid bacteria is the specific bacteria to use. Its application in organic farming is enormous. In aquaculture, one of the problem is related to water quality. Poor water quality stresses the fish which in turn stunts their growth and affects their health. This is very evident specially on high density and tank aquaculture. The ammonia produced through fish excretions pollute the water and stress the fish. With regular addition of this beneficial microorganisms to the water, this ammonia problem is minimized, if not fully arrested. It helps hasten or complete the denitrification or converting wastes into forms not harmful to fish.
> 
> ...





Matt Rize said:


> Break it down: Matt Rize Veganics (very different than kushman)
> BT Plus media. I'm using some grade 3 perlite at 20% on the first two transplants. then doing straight BT Plus. This helps the pot dry evenly.
> Food/inoculants:
> Alaskan Humisoil - tea starter in late veg to mid flower
> ...


Top of Form1. *http://urbangardenmagazine.com/2010/11/neem-oil/*

*Nature&#8217;s Plant Protector*
*Bill Sutherland from **Growing Edge Technologies** discusses neem oil and how it can form an important part of your indoor garden pest control program.*
*WHAT IS NEEM OIL?*





Neem oil is a natural product derived from the seeds of the neem tree (_Azadirachta indica). _The neem tree is native to tropical and semi-tropical regions of South Asia but also grows in the Middle East and some parts of Africa. Most of the widespread cultivation and use of neem is in India, where it has been used for over two thousand years as a medicinal treatment for a plethora of ailments and disorders. The neem tree is an evergreen, which grows to around 60 ft (18 m) and produces white aromatic flowers followed by a small fruit that looks much like a large olive. Inside the fruit lies the payload; one large seed from which the oil is extracted by either cold pressing or solvent extraction. A by-product of neem oil extraction is a solid dried product called &#8216;neem cake&#8217;, which can be used as an organic fertilizer as well as a good method of controlling soil-dwelling pests. Here we will focus on the properties, uses and advantages of neem oil when used as a natural pest control agent for your homegrown fruits and flowers.
Please note: Neem oil products are not currently registered for use as a pesticide in Canada.
*What does neem oil do?*
This may sound disappointing, but it needs to be said: neem is not an insecticide that kills on contact, and it has a low instant &#8216;knock down&#8217; effect. However, it is still very effective! Unlike other chemical insecticides, neem oil gets into an insect&#8217;s body after the ingestion of neem coated plant material and gets to work within a few hours. The predominant active component in neem oil is called azadirachtin, and once in a pest&#8217;s body it directly affects the hormonal system, more so than the digestive or nervous system. The way in which azadirachtin targets the hormonal system means that insects are far less likely to develop resistance in future generations. As well as azadirachtin, other liminoid compounds present in natural neem oil (nimbin, salanin, gedunin, azadirone, melandriol and more) play a significant collaborative role in deterring feeding and reducing pest populations.
*Biological Effects of Neem Oil on Insects*
Historical use and recent research studies show that a broad range of phytophagous (plant eating) pest insects are affected and can be controlled by neem oil, these include:​· Orthoptera: grasshoppers, katydids, crickets etc.
· Coleoptera: wide range of beetles/weevils
· Hemiptera: leafhoppers, aphids, psyllids & some scale insects
· Lepidoptera: cutworms, borers & caterpillars
· Thysanoptera: thrips
· Diptera: Sciarid fly, fruit fly, buffalo/blow & march fly
· Heteroptera: sucking bugs &#8211; Green veggie bug, spotted fruit bug etc.
· Others: nematodes, snails, and also some fungi and pathogenic viruses


*1. Insect Growth Regulation*
Neem oil is unique in nature since it works on juvenile hormones. The insect larva feeds and when it grows, it sheds its old skin and continues growing. This molting phenomenon, also know as _ecdysis,_ is predominantly governed by the enzyme _ecdysone. _When the ingested neem, or more specifically azadirachtin, enters into the body of larva, the activity of ecdysone is suppressed. This causes molting failure and results in the larva not developing to the next life stage, and ultimately dying. If only a small amount of neem-coated foliage is ingested, and the concentration of azadirachtin is insufficient to cause molting failure, the larva will manage to enter a short-lived prepupal stage where it will die. In some instances, where the concentration of azadirachtin is still less, the adult emerging from the pupa will be malformed and sterile, without any capacity for reproduction.
*2. Feeding Deterrent*
One of most important properties of neem oil is feeding deterrence. Most insects are permanently hungry during their larval stages, particularly when they are mobile on the leaf surface. An insect&#8217;s maxillary gland is responsible for initiating feeding. When these glands give a signal, peristalsis in the alimentary canal is increased, which makes the larva feel hungry, and makes it start eating. When a leaf is treated with neem oil, the presence of the liminoids azadirachtin, salanin and melandriol produces an anti-peristaltic wave in an insect&#8217;s alimentary canal, producing something similar to a vomiting sensation combined with a reduced ability to swallow. Because of this sensation, an insect will avoid feeding on neem-treated leaf surfaces.
*3. Oviposition Deterrent*
Another way in which neem oil reduces pests is by not allowing the females to deposit eggs. This property is known as oviposition deterrence, and quickly thwarts the pest population growth. Interestingly, studies by Knapp & Kashenge (Insect Sci. Applic.2003) on spider mites, and Singh & Singh (Phytoparasitica, 199




on fruit flies have shown that natural neem oil formulations are more effective as oviposition deterrents and insect mortality than azadirachtin concentrates alone. Results from Knapp&#8217;s & Kashenge&#8217;s study showed that azadirachtin does not seem to play a major role in the control of spider mites. Although, azadirachtin is an important component of neem oil, the other less studied ingredients seem to have a positive synergistic effect when it comes to effecting the behavior, effectiveness and mortality of plant pests.
*Neem Oil&#8217;s Effect on Non-Target Species and Beneficial Insects*
One of the problems with the use of chemical pesticides has been their impact on non-target species, particularly when used outdoors. Often they have proved harmful to other beneficial species present in the ecosystem. Neem oil products have proved to be remarkably benign to insects such as adult bees and butterflies that pollinate crops and trees, ladybugs that consume aphids, and wasps that act as parasites on various crop pests. As mentioned above, neem oil has to be ingested to be effective. Those insects that feed on plant tissues, therefore, easily succumb. However natural enemies that feed only on other insects, and bees and butterflies that feed on nectar rarely come in contact with significant concentrations of neem oil to cause themselves harm.
*Neem Oil&#8217;s Other Benefits as a Foliar Spray*
Beside its insecticidal and nematicidal properties, neem oil is also a promising agent for the control of viral and fungal plant diseases. Neem oil in combination with paraffin oil has been shown to greatly reduce disease incidences of the yellow vein mosaic virus of okra and legumes, and leaf curl of chili, all of which can cause enormous losses. Neem oil has also been shown to reduce transmission of the tobacco mosaic virus in greenhouse vegetable crops of pepper, cucumber and tomato.
Neem oil has been demonstrated to suppress fungal activity. Fungi are constantly evolving enemies of growers and some can reach epidemic proportions. Neem oil has been shown to protect seeds against fungal diseases while in storage, and be beneficial as a preventative spray for fungal leaf diseases such as powdery and downy mildew.
Neem oil also contains some key nutrients that make it a good foliar fertilizer. A typical good quality neem oil product found in your local grow store will contain the following plant nutrients:

· Total Nitrogen 1.20% by mass
· Phosphorus as P 0.07% by mass
· Potassium as K 0.01% by mass
· Magnesium as Mg 0.03% by mass
· Copper as Cu 10 ppm
· Magnesium, as Mn 0.40 ppm
· Zinc as Zn 20.00 ppm
· Iron content 14.00 ppm


So, not only will regular spraying of neem oil onto your plant foliage control pests, it will also help prevent diseases and act as a foliage fertilizer! Amazing stuff.
*How to Use Natural Cold-Pressed Neem Oil:*
*Foliar Spraying*
Like most of the vegetable oils, natural cold-pressed Neem oil is non-soluble in water and has to be made soluble with suitable emulsifiers before spraying. Some commonly available emulsifiers that can be used are liquid soaps, eco-friendly detergents, surfactants, wetting agents, soap nut powder, and many other organic emulsifiers.

17. Collect together your equipment.
18. To make 10 liters of spray-able neem, pour 1 liter of water into a container, add 10&#8211;15 ml of liquid soap, or a suitable emulsifier, and agitate well until the soap/emulsifiers completely dissolve.
19. To this solution add 50 ml of neem oil and agitate well until a pale yellowish white emulsion is formed.
20. Add this prepared emulsion to 9 liters of water in a bucket and stir thoroughly. The neem solution is now ready for spraying.


Spraying should be done within 8 hours of mixing, using a suitable sprayer. This solution can be used as a foliar spray on crops, and also can be sprayed on the surface of growing media for effective action against root pests.
It is recommended to repeat the spraying 5 times at intervals of 7 to 10 days. Spraying should be undertaken during periods of low light intensity; outdoors or in greenhouses this should be in the early morning or late in the evening. If you grow under lights, raise them high and consider turning a few off to reduce light intensity before spraying.
*Soil Drench*

· To make 10 liters of drench-able neem. Add 1 liter of water to a container. Add 20&#8211;30 ml of liquid soap, or suitable emulsifier, and agitate well until the soap/emulsifiers completely dissolve.
· To this solution add 250&#8211;350 ml of neem oil and agitate well until a pale yellowish white emulsion is formed.
· Add this prepared emulsion to 9 liters of water in a bucket and stir thoroughly. The neem solution is now ready to pour onto the growing medium. Apply enough for a small amount of run-off to occur.


Please Note: Drenching potting soil with neem will adversely affect the beneficial biology of the rhizosphere. If you need to drench the root zone with neem, a follow up application with a good quality actively aerated compost tea will help to re-inoculate the beneficial bacteria, fungi and protozoa.
*Neem Oil&#8217;s Effect on Plants*
Neem oil not only coats the plant foliage after spraying, it is actually absorbed into the leaf material and can be transported around the plant systemically. Neem&#8217;s liminoid compounds (mainly azadirachtin) can be taken up by the roots after root zone applications, thereby reaching leaf and stem material throughout the whole plant. This reinforces the anti-feeding deterrent properties or neem oil, which makes the whole plant rather unappealing to invading pests.
Due to this persistence in the plant, neem oil products should not be used on plants that are approaching maturity. As a general rule, avoid spraying or soil drenching neem oil on plants that have five weeks left before harvest. As mentioned above, neem products have been used topically and ingested for medicinal use by humans for thousands of years and are completely non-toxic. However, neem has a very bitter taste that can, if used too late in a plant&#8217;s life cycle, be passed into the developing consumable produce.
*Summary of the Advantages of Neem Oil*

24. Broad spectrum of activity
25. No known insecticide resistance mechanisms
26. Compatible with many other insecticides and fungicides
27. New mode of action with possible multiple sites of attack
28. Low use rates
29. Compatible with other biological control agents for Integrated Pest Management programs.
30. Not persistent in the environment
31. Minimal impact on non-target organisms
32. Formulation flexibility
33. Application flexibility &#8212; can be sprayed or drenched




SlightlyVaped said:


> I was talking with a friend in Japan today regarding gardening and he was mentioning his mom makes a bacteria out of rice and milk for her little garden.
> 
> Anyone heard of this?
> 
> ...





Matt Rize said:


> Maybe it's because of their wine-making heritage, but the French are obsessed with fermenting various plants into special insecticidal, bactericidal, and fungicidal brews to use on...other plants. Remember the article on brewing an extract of stinging nettles in this column?
> 
> Well, the nettle is the undisputed queen of the French gardener's vegetal fermentations. But at least a score of other plants are used as well, each for a very specific purpose which apparently has been evolved by experience. Some of them--such as pyrethrum (Tanacetum cinerariifolium, main photo above) you may have used for some time without realizing it. This plant would go unrecognized by most gardeners, yet it is the source of commercial organic pyrethrum, a well-known insecticide.
> 
> ...





Matt Rize said:


> I mix it in, about a TBSP per gallon of soil.
> 
> *CC on Liming Amendments*
> 
> ...





+ WitchDoctor + said:


> Soilless Mix= aprox. 30 gallons
> 
> Dolomite lime &#8211;1 1/2 cups
> Neem cake &#8211; 2 cups
> ...


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## malignant (Apr 4, 2012)

I will be working on further cleaning up the thread and improving readability. If anyone wants to do an faq feel free to post it. I will do a cliffs notes and replace this post when everything is finished. just wanted to get something up for you guys in the interim. If anyone else has anything to add, this is a thread for information only, no discussions, no questions, it is for reference purposes only. dont be offended if an unnecessary post gets deleted.


if you have any questions about veganic growing please ask them here:
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/364864-vegan-organics-aka-veganics-matt.html


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## purplesour (Jun 21, 2012)

awesome that helped me out tons


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 18, 2012)

In total awe..........thank mother nature that someone has been awesome enough to bless us with this plethora of valuable info. If ya dont know now ya know!


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Oct 15, 2012)

No offense or nothin cus its cool that you took the time to do this but..... you only covered about .001% of the valueble information in the thread. if you do add more to this, I would add a whole fuck load more info lol, along with all Q/A 's and all the back and forth banter that contains relavent information. it's kinda hard to sum up 225 pages in 1.


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## farmit420 (Oct 24, 2012)

Good thread bro!


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## budzrus (Nov 27, 2012)

wow that is one hell of a read. I will have to reread it as the info is great. Thanks a lot man.


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## weedies.org (Jan 7, 2013)

Wow, this is beautiful! I had no idea that there was such a sweet guide for growing!
My brother and I have been trying out our own recipes, I guess we should've researched a bit better...

Thanks for sharing, I'm gonna implement some of this into our next grow and document it...


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## Astral Zoom (Jan 20, 2013)

wow tremendous help


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## RedRick (Jan 29, 2013)

Wow, that is a lot to take in. Great information, much appreciated.


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## Sincerely420 (Jan 29, 2013)

Awesome post! EXTRA informative! Everything you need to get started w/ organics is pretty much in the above! 
Ain't nothin' .001% of nothing. *Everything you need to get started is here.* Just take the time to ingest it all 

And I'm down to help out with whatever questions I can as well! Got a lot to learn yeahhh, but I think I'm moving along!


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Mar 6, 2013)

The .001% I was talking about, was in reference to Matt Rize's Veganic thread, which is what this cheat sheet was created to sum up. While alot of the articles Matt posted about advanced veganic gardening and making your own nutes, supplements, and teas were covered, the vast majority of the general and intermediate information on veganic gardening are no where to be seen. Again props on the thread bro, all I was trying to say was that there should have probably been a little bit more rudamentary info listed.


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## waktoo (Apr 9, 2013)

Gil Carandang has updated his website... natural farming techniques. It has recipes for making various natural/plant concoctions for gardening/farming. I've got a slew of different IMO/BIM and FPE's in the works right now. Waiting for spring to get here... hope some find this of some use. http://gilcarandang.com/


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## armydude420 (May 7, 2013)

hey im using general organics nute line which says is veganic any comments on that line that might help me out


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## Calyx541 (Mar 18, 2014)

FACT: Plants are supposed to consume and process animal waste. It is how our ecosystem is designed. This whole veganics thing is just a hipster fad IMHO.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 20, 2014)

Calyx541 said:


> FACT: Plants are supposed to consume and process animal waste. It is how our ecosystem is designed. This whole veganics thing is just a hipster fad IMHO.


That's not a "FACT". Plants can and do uptake animal waste, but most plants in the wild derive their sustenance from leaf litter and other dead/decaying plant matter.


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## DonTesla (Jul 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's not a "FACT". Plants can and do uptake animal waste, but most plants in the wild derive their sustenance from leaf litter and other dead/decaying plant matter.


Stowys a quiet assassin, always in the shadows, lurking like a cougar, alongside truth! the animal kingdoms and plant kingdoms are only as efficient as they are cause of the bug and microbe kingdoms, ay mon? we just think we run it all !


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## Pattahabi (Jul 22, 2014)

Except worms are in the kingdom Animalia, so not exactly 'truth'. I had to lol a little at the bug and microbe kingdoms. 

Armydude I used the GO line for about one cycle. It was terrible, go with a good organic soil, not bottles labeled organic. There's a difference.

Yo, Calyx, are you also Kalyx? 


P-


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 24, 2014)

Tofu marijuana. Ha.


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## malignant (Oct 21, 2014)

SeniorFrostyKush said:


> No offense or nothin cus its cool that you took the time to do this but..... you only covered about .001% of the valueble information in the thread. if you do add more to this, I would add a whole fuck load more info lol, along with all Q/A 's and all the back and forth banter that contains relavent information. it's kinda hard to sum up 225 pages in 1.


Why dont you?


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## Samizdat (Aug 16, 2016)

I use Vegamatrix. It's not "100%" organic because there a couple percent of stabilizers there because it's a shelf stable product. It's nothing crazy that I really worry about. The big selling point is for those who use it legit as medicine because products grown with vegamatrix (or veganic in general) test in the parts per billion when it comes to heavy metals and that's important for patients. 

it will ALWAYS be better to cook your own nutes, but for those of us who got other shit going on I do like pre-bottled veganic nutrients.


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## Jared Cox (Oct 29, 2016)

Are people actually getting results doing this? I don't really understand veganics - as there is always going to be microbial life dying in the soil, even if you are super sterile, there will always be some sort of life dying from the water or air put in.


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## GrowerGoneWild (Oct 29, 2016)

Jared Cox said:


> Are people actually getting results doing this? I don't really understand veganics - as there is always going to be microbial life dying in the soil, even if you are super sterile, there will always be some sort of life dying from the water or air put in.


Kyle Kushman has been winning cups with his veganic approach. That seems to indicate high quality of his flowers.

The point is not to use manures, or animal products, use plant based composts to feed. In fact the application of composts depends on raw material. Manures and are to be applied in a shallower layer vs plant based composts that can be applied heavier and thicker. Manure based fertilizers are know to cause sodic problems to soil when applied too heavily.

Manures, proteins, animal products. are not nearly as broken down as items in a traditional hot compost pile, or a vermicompost pile. Vermicompost is also loaded with microbes, enzymes, and polysaccharides that make PK easier to absorb by plants. 

Lastly the smell, I do not like the smell of liquid fish products or blood meal. Outdoors its not so much a problem, indoors it is, mainly fish products, when I water 50-100 plants a day it smells terrible.


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## hockeybry2 (Dec 9, 2016)

Biocanna is great stuff. I've gown great results


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## farmerfischer (Jun 4, 2017)

Anyone have any thoughts on the o.g. ( old school growers) line call veganic special sauce? Looks good to me, just curious.


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## Chippewa1 (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm new to vegan recently started using vegan dry nutes in 2 of my 4 plants seeing if there is a visible change.


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## Chippewa1 (Jun 5, 2017)

Also need some vegan bloom mixtures if anyone can help?


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## Chippewa1 (Jun 5, 2017)

will post pics of experiment if there's interest


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## Giggsy70 (Jan 18, 2018)

Chippewa1 said:


> Also need some vegan bloom mixtures if anyone can help?


I believe sprouted corn tea in bloom.


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## SageFromZen (May 25, 2018)

farmerfischer said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on the o.g. ( old school growers) line call veganic special sauce? Looks good to me, just curious.


I first obtained the OG Tea VSS as an Emerald Cup sample in 2016 that I used last year(2017). I liked it enough that I purchased a bag for use this season. It can work side by side with whatever nutrient regiment you're using. Last year I used it mixed in with FoxFarm Big Bloom on a Mendo Grapefruit Kush that just turned out terpy as all get-out.

I am using it differently this year. I filled up a 5 gallon bucket of stinging nettle leaves and borage leaves and flowers and using a pair of garden sheers I cut everything up. Add pure water, put a lid on it and let it sit for two weeks in a cool dark place until all vegetable matter has rotten and sunk to the bottom. Strainer out the vegetable matter and bottle it.

So at a rate of one cup of the "green nettle and borage gack" in my two gallon watering can I also add a teaspoon of VSS and fill the rest of the way with pure water and stir well. I let it sit about a half an hour for a reaction to take place and then water my plants with that. They perk and leaves point straight to the sky happy as shit every other watering when they get it. The guy at my local hydro shop can't keep it on the shelves and I'm not advertising. I went in there on four different occasions to pick some up on it's delivery date and if it wasn't being transfered to their sister store somebody bought em' up before I got there.

It's doing something right.


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## SageFromZen (May 26, 2018)

This might shed some light as to why it's effective:

http://cdn.arbico-organics.com/downloads/1305420_Veganic Special Sauce-OGTea_12916.pdf

Just found this also and it says quite a bit:

http://greenbookpages.com/reviews/hydroponics/og-tea-veganic-special-sauce-microbial-tea/

I love doing research for The Greater of All.  I can't say that I entirely agree with the authors spin on how compost teas were discovered but I did find it informative.


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## SageFromZen (May 29, 2018)

Oh great. Greenbookpages suspended the link. That was a very in-depth article. Damn.


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## Kent Sage (Jun 26, 2018)

Jared Cox said:


> Are people actually getting results doing this? I don't really understand veganics - as there is always going to be microbial life dying in the soil, even if you are super sterile, there will always be some sort of life dying from the water or air put in.


https://growingorganic.com/soil-compost/biochar/


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## DonTesla (Jul 10, 2018)

farmerfischer said:


> Anyone have any thoughts on the o.g. ( old school growers) line call veganic special sauce? Looks good to me, just curious.


Hype imo.


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## Ecompost (Aug 15, 2018)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's not a "FACT". Plants can and do uptake animal waste, but most plants in the wild derive their sustenance from leaf litter and other dead/decaying plant matter.


hmm I am going to debate this in light of insects and microbes. Where is the line where waste is considered and what is an animal if not an insect or arthropod? How much of the leaf material on a forest floor also contains traces of insect waste and how much is pure leaf?
How much microbial waste is consumed by plants? Plants cant eat leaves right, these need to be composted and reduced to ions? So isnt this actually the ever decreasing waste of ever shrinking animals/ organisms?

Ergo I propose the initial premise is correct and vegans must face the reality they eat insect shit or even animals at times? 
It has been said that the reason many vegans are deficient in B12 is because the wash the plants before they consume them and so wash away the microbe covered insect waste, which is actually one of the best bits, eg containing the vital B12 Cobalt required to regulate cell integrity.
To me, plants and the animals/ organisms around them contribute to the sum total nutrient value for us


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## Ecompost (Aug 15, 2018)

DonTesla said:


> Stowys a quiet assassin, always in the shadows, lurking like a cougar, alongside truth! the animal kingdoms and plant kingdoms are only as efficient as they are cause of the bug and microbe kingdoms, ay mon? we just think we run it all !


this is closer to the reality for me bro


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## Ecompost (Aug 15, 2018)

kodesh said:


> If veganic just means organic minus animal products... why would you care unless you're outdoor and trying not to attract critters with say blood meal or fish hydrolysate? Can someone please explain the benefit of this method for your typical indoor medical grower?


the funny thing is, those critters and what not are sign posts telling you whats wrong typically. its all some code and its hard for lots of us to understand and so benefit from the opportunities of adversity


Samizdat said:


> I use Vegamatrix. It's not "100%" organic because there a couple percent of stabilizers there because it's a shelf stable product. It's nothing crazy that I really worry about. The big selling point is for those who use it legit as medicine because products grown with vegamatrix (or veganic in general) test in the parts per billion when it comes to heavy metals and that's important for patients.
> 
> it will ALWAYS be better to cook your own nutes, but for those of us who got other shit going on I do like pre-bottled veganic nutrients.


wouldnt he get stability via fermentation?


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## Ecompost (Aug 15, 2018)

GrowerGoneWild said:


> Kyle Kushman has been winning cups with his veganic approach. That seems to indicate high quality of his flowers.
> 
> The point is not to use manures, or animal products, use plant based composts to feed. In fact the application of composts depends on raw material. Manures and are to be applied in a shallower layer vs plant based composts that can be applied heavier and thicker. Manure based fertilizers are know to cause sodic problems to soil when applied too heavily.
> 
> ...


i dont know about all of this, lots of compost is 24:1, lots of manure is far lower C/N and so available faster no?

I think the point of compost is sustainable fertility overtime. Manures are a bit quicker to be spent, its more volatile and so can cause overdosing, leading to pests and problems, and often manures contain a reduced list of microbes, esp before its properly composted itself, and so we could argue manures have less overall benefit alone, but when combined as compost, or additionally bokashi fermented, as in the case of my nutrients, they are better through greater diversity.

Any organics like manures over done can cause all sorts of stability problems, not least with Potassium, Boron, Manganese and so on, but with pests, pathogens and the environment too.

As growers of organics in a world where access to data is more inclusive, perhaps we need to better understand how each and any input changes the microbial ratios and so again has consequences for our plants that we might need to note.

What we also need to acknowledge is, how organic is a product that has come from synthetically grow grasses fed to a cows drugged with antibiotics whose shit we then use?
Kushman is at least trying to reduce the farce of many so called labeled organic products, who use manures from synthetic fed cattle and animals, but shit its expensive his solution and of course it still week 1 do this, week 2 do this. Honesty this is the great fraud but its something the community demands, this i can tell you first hand.
I think people ought to learn about growth makers and learn how to properly feed plants and not just run off a guide made to sell more stuff, which you may or may not need on week blah.

Also what fish products have you been using? I make one that dont stink the place up, perhaps its the products and process to make them that has tarnished your experience?


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## Ecompost (Aug 18, 2018)

Kent Sage said:


> https://growingorganic.com/soil-compost/biochar/


I liked activated char, but again I think its something we might do without if we use CO2 burst rate testing and enhance our understanding of existing carbon content among the bodies of our microbe workforce. If we have high levels of soil CO2, do we need to add Char?
This doesnt take way from the excellent article buddy 

more on CO2 testing and why


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## Ecompost (Aug 18, 2018)

You might also have a read over this article. it covers the use of various inputs and describes the impacts on microbial populations there after. Its a rice based article so of course if not the same as growing MJ, but never the less, it offers some insights reference how what we use to grow MJ can impact the overall balance, or not, of our soil ecology.
https://scialert.net/fulltext/?doi=ja.2010.102.110&org=11

for a more focused discussion on a specific input, Chitin, since i have seen mentioned in this thread, see here. Its heavy academic stuff, but if you can wade through it, you should find value or understanding that might inform choices moving forwards

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3835784/

and to bring it right home, you may also enjoy this read 
Understanding Cultivar-Specificity and Soil Determinants of the _Cannabis_ Microbiome
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0099641


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## Growingseedy (Oct 28, 2018)

Want to know more about organic!


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## Ecompost (Oct 28, 2018)

SageFromZen said:


> This might shed some light as to why it's effective:
> 
> http://cdn.arbico-organics.com/downloads/1305420_Veganic Special Sauce-OGTea_12916.pdf
> 
> ...


Me too buddy, I had to chuckle when i read that organic and bio organics was invented in California. Of course it was, before these dudes no plants grew..... VSS is literally just a bunch of white labeled mycos and bacteria with some clever words to market it. I am not saying it doesnt work, of course it does, I mean plants have been forming relationships with fungi and bacteria for years, just as we have as humans.
The various inputs eg rock dust, kelp etc are where we find the microbes in nature, they eat these things, live where these materials are found. The microbes in VSS, and those occurring in natural healthy soil systems, reduce the organic material from simple to complex, from big to small. These particular microbes breathe in Oxygen and Out CO2. This CO2 combines with water (H2O) and this forms an acid (Carbonic Acid - CO2 + H2O -> H2CO3) which mobilizes the minerals from the parent material in to a water soluble form. It is the respiration of healthy microbial communities that enables access to critical minerals which are essential for good plant growth. The reason this product "VSS" is seen to work, is for exactly this reason.

In nature, all things have what are called "biological markers", the higher the number of biological markers, the more virulent the plant growth and the less we have to spend time as a grower tinkering. The difference between what we call a weed or a cultivated plant and its successful growth is found in the numbers of partnerships any plant can form. The more partners, the more likely success, whatever the conditions.
EG Hogweed has 18+ biological markers, where sun flowers have 4. Ergo conditions must be far more perfect to grow sunflowers. I hope this makes sense.

Whatever, no plant grows without both decomposing microbes and humifying microbes. Humifying microbes are more delicate and subject to losses, eg the drying of soil, over watering, over feeding organics, a bad C/N ratio and so on, its these we are often missing, and its these that break the food down in to stable, resistant, plant ready forms.
Using these products ensures that we have both sets if microbes, and so we are to a greater extent, giving ourselves an evolutionary edge, even if we arent sure if the inoculates we are using, contain all the required BM's, its better that not using them imo, they far extend access to minerals, without which we get crap plants

Happy growing


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## MyFloridaGreen360 (Dec 1, 2018)

There is a line of veganic supplements, its called BioCanna, kyle kushman should take a shot at a line through one of the significant wholesalers that will be all veganic. 

Here are the relevant posts and equations for the veganic producers snappy reference. there is a considerable measure of data on here, so be careful when skimming.


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## Weezer80 (Dec 28, 2018)

Stoked I found this post, literally all I need as a resource until I have some questions!


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## JasonKi (Aug 1, 2019)

Thanks for sharing


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## ThaiDuongVisa (Oct 10, 2019)

I enjoyed your post, it gave me quite a lot of useful information.


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## Erbski (Aug 25, 2020)

HigherGround said:


> So, yes it's only 98% organic and they decided not to pay for the organic label even though they exceed the standard of organic by a shit ton and yes that is a true measurement. The chemicals in vegamatrix are not used as a growth hormone. It's just to make the nutrients better absorbed and last. Your not going to be tasting these in the end product and not going to be worried about health risk of using these types of chemicals. I appreciate the honesty of Kyle kushman letting use know what it's made up of. He does this because he has nothing to hide.


My biobizz out does kylekushmans "vegamatrix" all week month year decade etc. Ill never buy another feed line again....


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## Northwood (Aug 29, 2020)

st0wandgrow said:


> ... most plants in the wild derive their sustenance from leaf litter and other dead/decaying plant matter.


Considering the volume of peer reviewed publications that show animal biomass has an important role in soil nutrient cycling in the wild (particularly nitrogen), I find this "fact" hard to believe. For example, that leaf litter is eaten by fungi, which in turn is eaten by fungal eating animals such as springtails. Then we have detritivore animals. Plants, fungi, bacteria, and these animals have co-evolved to increase the efficiency of nutrient recycling to benefit all involved. For example, Metarhizium and Beauveria fungal species are insect pathogens that also happen to form intercellular root associations like mycorrhizae. Yeah, they attack and kill living insects to give their processed nutrients directly to plants in exchange for carbon. How cool is that? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553473/

I would guess my no-till 150 gallon indoor pot has at least a pound or two of living animals in at any one time, and likely more (counting the worms). These guys poop, add chitin, and all their nitrogen and other nutrients are returned when they die.


http://imgur.com/Gm0Zopa

 <--- my pot after watering.

As organic growers, we can't be concentrated on only one tropic level because nature is way more complex than that. We don't necessarily have to understand the science behind it if we just let it do its thing. Applying vegan ideology to the extreme when growing plants is a bit silly IMO for that reason.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 30, 2020)

Northwood said:


> Considering the volume of peer reviewed publications that show animal biomass has an important role in soil nutrient cycling in the wild (particularly nitrogen), I find this "fact" hard to believe. For example, that leaf litter is eaten by fungi, which in turn is eaten by fungal eating animals such as springtails. Then we have detritivore animals. Plants, fungi, bacteria, and these animals have co-evolved to increase the efficiency of nutrient recycling to benefit all involved. For example, Metarhizium and Beauveria fungal species are insect pathogens that also happen to form intercellular root associations like mycorrhizae. Yeah, they attack and kill living insects to give their processed nutrients directly to plants in exchange for carbon. How cool is that? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4553473/
> 
> I would guess my no-till 150 gallon indoor pot has at least a pound or two of living animals in at any one time, and likely more (counting the worms). These guys poop, add chitin, and all their nitrogen and other nutrients are returned when they die.
> 
> ...


Oh man, you are trying to punk on Stow and DonTesla. OMG get the fuck outta here!!! Neither one of these guys are on here anymore and they have WAY more clout than you will ever have on this forum. You are talking about two greats in the organic section. Someone tell this little punk that he needs to sit down when he's in class...


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## Scuzzman (Oct 30, 2020)

just buy Mega Crop 1 part as its Veganic - Vegan- Organic non animal based - only plant in it is dried kelp, in my view growing vegan is stupid


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## Northwood (Oct 30, 2020)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Oh man, you are trying to punk on Stow and DonTesla. OMG get the fuck outta here!!! Neither one of these guys are on here anymore and they have WAY more clout than you will ever have on this forum. You are talking about two greats in the organic section. Someone tell this little punk that he needs to sit down when he's in class...


Do you have anything to say about my post or the research paper I provided a link to? I wasn't talking about anyone and I have no idea who Stow and DonTesla are. It wasn't my intention to punk on anyone. I was just sharing my thoughts on this particular subject. I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts too.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 30, 2020)

Northwood said:


> I have no idea who Stow and DonTesla are.


It's because you are new here.


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## Irrelevanttwat (Apr 23, 2022)

Veganic agriculture utilises plant biomatter and symbiotic microbes and invertebrates to break down organic materials for plant bioavailability. No animal waste like bat guano used because it can promote unhelpful microbes. 

Been doing it for decades. Didn't even know you could by BS bottles. DIY so you actually understand the inputs, what and why microlife/invertebrates proliferate, how biomatter is processed into bioavailable nutrients, oxygen exchange etc. Basically a science degree, but that's cool, I have one.


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## Irrelevanttwat (Apr 23, 2022)

2 year old thread.


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