# Do You Believe In Ghosts?



## borntoshine (Jun 6, 2011)

Just wanting to peoples opinions on this subject cause I don't know if I do.


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## cynicallyoptimistic (Jun 6, 2011)

Nope. The only ghost I have even seen has been on a teevee I owned a long time ago.


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## RobbieP (Jun 6, 2011)

yep i do ... seen some unexplainable shit in the past


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## high|hgih (Jun 6, 2011)

If I'm high enough man lol but otherwise not really, all those shows are scams and why the hell would anyone think that after you die you just because a semi-invisible thing that floats around scaring everyone? That would be retarded


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## guy incognito (Jun 6, 2011)

Nope. Doesn't make any sense.


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## high|hgih (Jun 6, 2011)

There is one show in particular that is terrible lol I forget what its called, but if youve ever flipped through the channels and caght a glimpse of a ghost show you just wanted to pee your pants because it was so stupid, then you know what show Im talking about


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## guy incognito (Jun 6, 2011)

Wait what was that?! is there a ghost here? what was that?!?!


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## high|hgih (Jun 6, 2011)

And if youd listen to our EPU 466547655 you can faintly hear what sounds like an evil spirit buttfucking me OUCH


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 6, 2011)

RobbieP said:


> yep i do ... seen some unexplainable shit in the past



how did you manage the leap from "unexplainable" to ghosts?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 6, 2011)

high|hgih said:


> There is one show in particular that is terrible lol I forget what its called, but if youve ever flipped through the channels and caght a glimpse of a ghost show you just wanted to pee your pants because it was so stupid, then you know what show Im talking about


Larry King Live?


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## karri0n (Jun 6, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> how did you manage the leap from "unexplainable" to ghosts?



I'm assuming there is an implied "otherwise" before the word unexplainable.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 6, 2011)

Some critical thought about the tools and methods ghost hunters use.

Ghost hunting tools of the trade

In short


> The use of any kind of measuring equipment to detect ghosts is fundamentally, and completely, bogus. How can I make a blanket statement like that? Measuring equipment detects what it is designed to detect, whether that's light, heat, electromagnetism, or whatever. Thus it will only detect things that emit measurable amounts of those energies. For us as viewers to accept that some piece of handheld measuring equipment has a useful function in detecting a ghost, we must base our acceptance on the premise that ghosts are known to emit those types of energies in measurable amounts. If there were any truth to this, science would have discovered it long ago. Hospital operating rooms would have ghost detection equipment built in. Mortuaries and crematoriums would have ghost detection equipment at the top of their list. Search and rescue crews would use ghost detection equipment. If ghosts did exist and were detectable, you can bet that there would be huge industries behind it. I can't think of anything that would attract more venture capital dollars from Silicon Valley. However, no rigorous research has ever shown that ghosts can be reliably detected with hardware. It's easy to disbelieve me, but it's much harder to disbelieve the lack of interest from greedy corporate America.


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## ggking (Jun 6, 2011)

...maybe... grasss ghosts makes the trip more interesting! e. ):


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## heathaa (Jun 6, 2011)

heres the deal. every major religion has references to ghosts. the stories of ghosts have been around since the beginning of time. for stories to live that long theres truth to it. i found it hard to believe (i was skeptical) until i actually lived in a haunted house. we lived there two months. my wife and daughter was sunburned because they would sit outside scared to go into the house untill i got home from work. the weirdest thing about it was the thresholds of the doors. you stepped right inside the house you had an instant headache. as soon as you stepped outside the threshold to the door it went away. this is what made me start to beleive it was somethin going on. thats until i seen an apparition of a man walk from the bathroom out the back door. after that we moved out and we came back to florida. the house was built in 1912


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## wayno30 (Jun 6, 2011)

im pretty sure my house is haunted


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## Jeffdt1966 (Jun 6, 2011)

not really ... nope ... not at all - but my wife does lol she wtches those shitty ghosthunter shows all the time..........................


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## tryingtogrow89 (Jun 6, 2011)

I believe what we all think are "Ghosts" are actually weakened vibrational points between two realities, or time lines, or alternate realities, or parallel universes, some how manifesting and crossing over into our reality/experience for a brief but absolute moment, and it will appear to be what we all commonly misconceive as so called "Ghosts". Just my theory but i do base it on fact that modern science cant even describe or compute little own theorize what reality is.


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## tryingtogrow89 (Jun 6, 2011)

heathaa said:


> heres the deal. every major religion has references to ghosts. the stories of ghosts have been around since the beginning of time. for stories to live that long theres truth to it. i found it hard to believe (i was skeptical) until i actually lived in a haunted house. we lived there two months. my wife and daughter was sunburned because they would sit outside scared to go into the house untill i got home from work. the weirdest thing about it was the thresholds of the doors. you stepped right inside the house you had an instant headache. as soon as you stepped outside the threshold to the door it went away. this is what made me start to beleive it was somethin going on. thats until i seen an apparition of a man walk from the bathroom out the back door. after that we moved out and we came back to florida. the house was built in 1912


See.. dimensional door! not Ghosts but Dimensions!


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## Los Muertos (Jun 6, 2011)

I'd like to believe in ghosts, but I don't.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 6, 2011)

heathaa said:


> heres the deal. every major religion has references to ghosts. the stories of ghosts have been around since the beginning of time. for stories to live that long theres truth to it. i found it hard to believe (i was skeptical) until i actually lived in a haunted house. we lived there two months. my wife and daughter was sunburned because they would sit outside scared to go into the house untill i got home from work. the weirdest thing about it was the thresholds of the doors. you stepped right inside the house you had an instant headache. as soon as you stepped outside the threshold to the door it went away. this is what made me start to beleive it was somethin going on. thats until i seen an apparition of a man walk from the bathroom out the back door. after that we moved out and we came back to florida. the house was built in 1912


Another explanation is that the mistakes of perception, logic and memory that cause people to believe in ghosts are inherit to the human experience and therefore have been around as long as humans. Some people still believe the world is flat, a theory that has been around a long time, does it's age give it any sort of validity?

I am not knocking the observation, only the conclusion. I also find it interesting as to why ghost stories persist. I mean after all, they are all pretty similar and transcend era, culture, location, upbringing, ect. These people are not just inventing pink unicorns out of the air, they are all having a similar experience. There must be _something_ to it.

What I have come to believe is that something is simply mistakes. There are too many things going on to explain them all, hallucinations, illusions, trickery, mis-perceptions, bias, ect, but they all amount to mistakes. The human brain is actually very adept at fooling itself. It's the only explanation I have found to reconcile the contrast between the sheer number of reported experiences and research done on the subject and the complete and utter lack of evidence.

If you wish to explore in more detail some of these mistakes or individual cases id be happy to.


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## wayno30 (Jun 6, 2011)

i know what cowboy boots sound like on a hardwood floor and we dont wear shoes in the house explain that this place got a ghost i need no more proof


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## Carne Seca (Jun 6, 2011)

Hell yes!


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## tryingtogrow89 (Jun 6, 2011)

*I think im going to make a strain called "Ghost", Fuck yea! 
*


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

wayno30 said:


> i know what cowboy boots sound like on a hardwood floor and we dont wear shoes in the house explain that this place got a ghost i need no more proof


Really? Your requirement for proof is one single incident of hearing something unexplained? You can think of absolutely no other explanation aside from the supernatural? If you count the assumptions you would have to make for that conclusion to be true, assuming humans have a spirit, assuming the spirit lives on after death, assuming a spirit is fixated on your house, assuming spirits can interact with the physical world, ect ect. Thats a ton of assumptions to make based on some strange noise you heard one time. After all, human perception is one of the most unreliable ways of gathering evidence we have. It would be more likely that an actual cowboy broke in and walked in your house, that is after all, far more within the realm of possibility than a ghost.

I am not saying you didn't hear a ghost, just that your standards of proof and your process of drawing a conclusion are very poor, far more lax than I would require for believing something as extraordinary as a ghost.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

i can't believe this is even in contention amongst a buncha stoners!!! what is wrong with you people!!? MJ increases your spiritual awareness; the chinese have known this for thousands of years as have shamans of all peoples worldwide. www.worlditc.org on the left hand side, researcher's results, scroll down to George Meek, read the spiricom manuals, listen to the tape. decide for yourself. I talk to those who have shed their physical bodies on a daily basis. I do not suggest this for it is rather treacherous, it is only because I am Protected in these realms that i traipse so cavalierly through them  but to deny the existence of the afterlife and it's inhabitants is utter insanity. you people are uber-retarded some times....


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## wayno30 (Jun 7, 2011)

its not once its all the time i dont even bother to look anymore..........the first night we moved in we were laying in bed and there was a buzzing noise....i said u hear that she said yes it got louder and louder until it was ear piercing and right on top of us we were freaked out jumped out of bed and it stopped ......not since......


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> i can't believe this is even in contention amongst a buncha stoners!!! what is wrong with you people!!? MJ increases your spiritual awareness; the chinese have known this for thousands of years as have shamans of all peoples worldwide. www.worlditc.org on the left hand side, researcher's results, scroll down to George Meek, read the spiricom manuals, listen to the tape. decide for yourself. I talk to those who have shed their physical bodies on a daily basis. I do not suggest this for it is rather treacherous, it is only because I am Protected in these realms that i traipse so cavalierly through them  but to deny the existence of the afterlife and it's inhabitants is utter insanity. you people are uber-retarded some times....


bobbypyn, I just want proof. That's all. Can you show us some? I've held seances, played with Ouija boards and even went to supposed "haunted houses" looking to disprove these things for myself and I have successfully done just that. As a child I was enamored with the possibility of ghosts, but as I got older and less afraid of the dark I started realizing they were made up, just like Santa Clause, Jesus Christ and the Easter Bunny. I think some people want to believe it so badly that they see things and hear things that they feel they can't explain because they don't bother. Another reason they've been around so long is because as humans we like to be afraid sometimes. A ghost story is much better than a story about a draft slamming a door shut.


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## nog (Jun 7, 2011)

i once saw something very wierd once but it may have been a natural phenomena like mist shaped like a human being


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

mouthmeetsoap said:


> bobbypyn, I just want proof. That's all. Can you show us some? I've held seances, played with Ouija boards and even went to supposed "haunted houses" looking to disprove these things for myself and I have successfully done just that. As a child I was enamored with the possibility of ghosts, but as I got older and less afraid of the dark I started realizing they were made up, just like Santa Clause, Jesus Christ and the Easter Bunny. I think some people want to believe it so badly that they see things and hear things that they feel they can't explain because they don't bother. Another reason they've been around so long is because as humans we like to be afraid sometimes. A ghost story is much better than a story about a draft slamming a door shut.


ummmm.... did you not read my post? ever heard of EVP? there's your proof, homey. Instrumental Transdimensional Communication. all documented using yall's sacred scientific method. the actual title of the research is An Electromagnetic-Etheric Systems Approach To Contact With Higher Levels of Human Concsciousness. aka Spiricom. what more proof do you require?

and just because whatever entities you were seeking contact with chose not to engage you, by no means makes them imaginary. I've never seen an Eskimo either, but some things you just take on faith.


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## tip top toker (Jun 7, 2011)

Who knows, i certainly can't say it's not possible, maybe not the white image of the person, but as a form of energy maybe. I mean people have near death out of body experiences, my father had one after getting hit by a car outside a church in italy, and i have to say he is the most honest person i know. We don't know or understand where our conciousness comes from so it only seems fair to say we can't know where it goes once the vessel ceases operation. I think that the type of terminology they'd use in the films  But yeah, can't say either way but i've myself seen some peculiar things whih could indeed be summed up with hard science, or could indeed be somehting else.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

Santa Claus: Saint Nicholas, patron saint of pawnbrokers. REAL.

Jesus Christ: Yeshua Ben Joseph, Light of the World. returned to earth on July 23rd 1892 in the Person of His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I. REAL

Easter Bunny: featured on many Cadbury's Creme Eggs commercials. REAL


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ummmm.... did you not read my post? ever heard of EVP? there's your proof, homey. Instrumental Transdimensional Communication. all documented using yall's sacred scientific method. the actual title of the research is An Electromagnetic-Etheric Systems Approach To Contact With Higher Levels of Human Concsciousness. aka Spiricom. what more proof do you require?
> 
> and just because whatever entities you were seeking contact with chose not to engage you, by no means makes them imaginary. I've never seen an Eskimo either, but some things you just take on faith.


I'd love to try this but alas there are qualifications to speak with the "higher evolved" spirits that Spiricom attempts to connect you with.

Spiricom even goes on to give an analogy as to why they DON'T have the abilities to communicate with spirits yet, saying something along the lines of the Wright Bros only breaking the surface when they first flew their plane. Again, I'd just like some solid evidence. The metascience foundations scientists have been on it for 25 years, yet they've had ONE instance of "two way conversation". One. I'd like to see the evidence of said conversation too. Couldn't find that. I found hundreds if images of Eskimos on google. Not saying you're wrong, just asking you to prove that I am.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ummmm.... did you not read my post? ever heard of EVP? there's your proof, homey. Instrumental Transdimensional Communication. all documented using yall's sacred scientific method. the actual title of the research is An Electromagnetic-Etheric Systems Approach To Contact With Higher Levels of Human Concsciousness. aka Spiricom. what more proof do you require?
> 
> and just because whatever entities you were seeking contact with chose not to engage you, by no means makes them imaginary. I've never seen an Eskimo either, but some things you just take on faith.


evp is about as bunk as it gets. highly subjective without being told what to hear everyone hears something different


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Santa Claus: Saint Nicholas, patron saint of pawnbrokers. REAL.
> 
> Jesus Christ: Yeshua Ben Joseph, Light of the World. returned to earth on July 23rd 1892 in the Person of His Imperial Majesty Haile Selassie I. REAL
> 
> Easter Bunny: featured on many Cadbury's Creme Eggs commercials. REAL


This says a lot.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

mouthmeetsoap said:


> This says a lot.


 
Indeed it does.

and spiricom was not a one time deal; read the reasearch. hours and hours of real time two way conversations with the so called dead. EVP has been debunked? how? by whom? with what agenda? who funded their research and presented their findings publicly? and just because the recieved messages are somewhat indistinct and hard to decipher at times by no means negates their existence. you admit there is SOMETHING on those recordings; how did it get there? by what scientific means? stray radio waves? nope; research has been conducted inside giant faraday cages; same results, thereby negating the claim of stray radio signals. what else....?


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> evp is about as bunk as it gets. highly subjective without being told what to hear everyone hears something different


but everyone hears SOMETHING that wasn't physically present at the time of the recording, correct? your claim is akin to someone saying that just because they can't read heiroglyphics that they're just a buncha meaningless pictures scribbled on the wall. ludicrous.


and Mr. Edison's phonograph was "debunked" in much the same manner by an esteemed member of the french Academie d' Science who proclaimed Mr. Edison's device nothing more than the clever use of ventriloquism. history marks his shame. shall it mark yours as well; that is the question at hand.
"As I understand it, it works whether you believe in it or not." Neils Bohr on the supernatural.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> but everyone hears SOMETHING that wasn't physically present at the time of the recording, correct? your claim is akin to someone saying that just because they can't read heiroglyphics that they're just a buncha meaningless pictures scribbled on the wall. ludicrous.


they hear artifacts of the recording or radio interferance.
these words are supposed to be in english not hieroglyphs if one person hears "duck" and the next hears "stephan" then what exactly does it prove?


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## imnotme (Jun 7, 2011)

I believe that our energy can continue to remain even after our body dies. I had a conversation with a ghost once while staying at the home of a relative.I know it sounds like BS, but it happened. My first son was newborn and his great grandmother came to see him. I didnt know she died 20+ years before. Its one of those things you never believe unless it you were the one it happened to. However, I dont believe in all those "Ghost Hunters" reality shows, pure BS.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

EVPs have been debunked in the sense that audio pareidolia offers a much less presumptuous explanation. Pareidolia is a well understood, well documented phenomenon that can be demonstrated and replicated. So in fact, there is no real reason to jump to the conclusion that ghosts are responsible.

I attempt to explain pareidolia in this post. 



> One of the most convincing occurrences of pareidolia in my opinion is electronic voice phenomena. This is when people leave an audio recorder in an old house that's suppose to be haunted, or an abandoned mental hospital, or even a graveyard. When the audio is played back and dissected, there are sometimes unexplained voices that can clearly, or sometimes not so clearly, say phrases. Sure, often these phrases make no sense. "she's in the mustard" "Laundry tuesday applecart" But still, there are voices saying these things and we can play it back over and over as proof! Ghost hunters have speculated that spirits use an enormous amount of energy to manipulate sounds in an effort to speak to us. The easiest to manipulate is white noise, and because it takes so much effort the spirits often get words wrong, or get cut off, in any case they can't do it for very long. If it takes so much 'energy', Why they would do it in an empty basement of an abandoned house is beyond me. I guess it's pretty easy to see the explanation which makes more sense, audio pareidolia.
> 
> Often the pareidolia is made worse by front loading. Front loading is when you are told what you are going to hear before you hear it, and so of course...that's what you hear. People who are front loaded often hear the same phrase as the original listener. People who aren't may still hear a voice, but each person is likely to hear slightly different words.
> 
> Another example of audio pareidolia is back masking. When you play records backwards it sometimes sounds like phrases. In the 80's thousands of parents actually thought this was a threat. They never stopped to ask, even if the phrases were constructed by a musical genius, what harm do they cause? Another case is when people hear words coming from the mouths of animals. I have heard some recordings of jackals, wolves and dogs and some of them made my neck hair prickle. Really spooky shit! I have heard a wolf howling quite clearly, "Sooo Alooooonnneee" and a dog when asked "how come you can talk?" easily say, "I learned".


Another great explination of audio pareidolia is here, with many examples to listen to.

The same site offers some critical thought on the subject in an answer to a student email.



> Hi. My name is Jessica, I'm from Tucson, Arizona and I am a sophomore in high school. My question is, how does a person who is a self proclaimed expert in EVP's explain how they work?
> 
> EVPs are Electronic Voice Phenomena, supposed to be the voices of ghosts that appear on tape recorders at times when the ghost hunters say nothing was audible. I think you've hit the nail on the head by calling these experts "self-proclaimed". EVPs are not scientific by any definition. There is no plausible theory behind how they might exist, they fail to appear whenever controls are applied, and they're not reproducible by other researchers. Thus, the existence of EVPs remains squarely in the territory of "anecdote".
> 
> ...


Spiricom did try to apply some controls, such as the Faraday cage, but failed to control for the most obvious explanation of all, pareidolia. 

Ouija boards take advantage of a well known, well understood phenomenon known as the ideomotor effect. To keep it simple, you are moving the game piece without realizing it. What happens when we take accomplished Ouija practicers and blindfold them? Well they still hit the letter perfectly. They site this as evidence the spirits are watching and guiding them to the letters. What happens if, after we blindfold them, we turn the board upside down without them realizing it? Well, they go to the place they think the letters are supposed to be. They behave as if the board was right side up. Are the spirits not paying attention, or is this action governed by the players consciousness?

I too would be very excited to find evidence of ghosts, but I feel the conclusion is worthy of the same standards of evidence we apply to everything else.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> they hear artifacts of the recording or radio interferance.
> these words are supposed to be in english not hieroglyphs if one person hears "duck" and the next hears "stephan" then what exactly does it prove?


is that because only english is spoken in the afterlife? people die everyday all over the world; not all of them speak english. i already told you radio interference has been ruled out; artifacts from a brand new blank tape and or empty digital file? give me break dude...


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> is that because only english is spoken in the afterlife? people die everyday all over the world; not all of them speak english. i already told you radio interference has been ruled out; artifacts from a brand new blank tape and or empty digital file? give me break dude...


empty digital files??... LOL


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> empty digital files??... LOL


yes; files on a brand new factory device are empty. what don't you grasp about that...? *giggles*

minutiae; the last refuge of the cornered.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> yes; files on a brand new factory device are empty. what don't you grasp about that...? *giggles*
> 
> minutiae; the last refuge of the cornered.


what format are these "empty files" recorded in?


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

please show me ones of these "empty files" my curiosity is nearly exploding


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> EVPs have been debunked in the sense that audio pareidolia offers a much less presumptuous explanation. Pareidolia is a well understood, well documented phenomenon that can be demonstrated and replicated. So in fact, there is no real reason to jump to the conclusion that ghosts are responsible.
> I too would be very excited to find evidence of ghosts, but I feel the conclusion is worthy of the same standards of evidence we apply to everything else.


your sacred scientific method was observed throughout the Spiricom research. listen to the tapes for yourself. to make a decision without examining the evidence for one's self doesn't speak highly of the decision maker...

and here again, you're fixating on the meanings of messages you claim cannot exist. you see the irony i trust.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> your sacred scientific method was observed throughout the Spiricom research. listen to the tapes for yourself. to make a decision without examining the evidence for one's self doesn't speak highly of the decision maker...
> 
> and here again, you're fixating on the meanings of messages you claim cannot exist. you see the irony i trust.


if you could produce an evp that every person that heard it heard the same thing without prompting. then you would be onto something


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

there is a Divine Paradox at work in this field in that one must first believe in order to see, for belief after seeing is rather disingenuous and viewed with no small degree of contempt... the existence of God will not be pinned down by your puny science, but the realms of science and metaphysics are about to run head-long into each other. don't believe me; i couldn't care less. I know what I know.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> if you could produce an evp that every person that heard it heard the same thing without prompting. then you would be onto something


are text messages clear enough for your criteria buddy?


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## MsBBB (Jun 7, 2011)

*Not sure what word to use, but I believe there are things that happen that can't be explained or a presence that can't be rationalized. *


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> there is a Divine Paradox at work in this field in that one must first believe in order to see, for belief after seeing is rather disingenuous and viewed with no small degree of contempt... the existence of God will not be pinned down by your puny science, but the realms of science and metaphysics are about to run head-long into each other. don't believe me; i couldn't care less. I know what I know.



so what your saying is that you've got to fall for it hook, line and sinker before it works...

conformation bia's



bobbypyn said:


> are text messages clear enough for your criteria buddy?



lmao and theres me thinking that it was the phone company sending me texts

please please please show me your text "evidence"


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

this whole deal is indicative of a greater problem; our current technology has imbued us with a terrible sense of arrogance. we think WE are the height of civilization for the first time in human history; WRONG. this is in fact the 4th time we on earth have reached this level of technology and beyond, always with the same disastrous results. we advance mechanically in neglect of our spritual needs. as such, our humanity and connection to our Creator is eroded and we get taught a painfull lesson. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 7, 2011)

Yes "Ghost" exist. How do I know? Well being I am a practicing Psychic Medium, I communicate with "ghosts" (spirits) on a regular basis. I have talked to spirits from as as early as 20 mins after dieing, and as far back as 1800s . I once was even visited by a rock n roll celebratory .
I understand completely many of you will laugh and call me a fraud, or even worse ask me to "prove it" lol. None the less I have nothing but respect for all, knowing one day you too will die and know for your selfs that past life is only the beginning of being.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> this whole deal is indicative of a greater problem; our current technology has imbued us with a terrible sense of arrogance. we think WE are the height of civilization for the first time in human history; WRONG. this is in fact the 4th time we on earth have reached this level of technology and beyond, always with the same disastrous results. we advance mechanically in neglect of our spritual needs. as such, our humanity and connection to our Creator is eroded and we get taught a painfull lesson. Fear of God is the beginning of wisdom.


yeah the government is keeping everyone dumb by removing the old engines and differentials from in amongst all the spear heads and spears...

where this "text msg" evidence?

was it sent to you or was it something you read online?


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> so what your saying is that you've got to fall for it hook, line and sinker before it works...
> 
> conformation bia's
> 
> ...


they would mean nothing to you. coversations between my dead wife and I? your smugness is revolting.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> yeah the government is keeping everyone dumb by removing the old engines and differentials from in amongst all the spear heads and spears...
> 
> where this "text msg" evidence?
> 
> was it sent to you or was it something you read online?


I'm going to implore you not to mock what you do not understand. thank you. I've shown you no disrespect.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> they would mean nothing to you. coversations between my dead wife and I? your smugness is revolting.



man you got some proper funny and evil freinds i wouldnt stoop so low as to pretend i was someones dead wife. but i'd sure as hell have fun if they were as gullible as you seem


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> I'm going to implore you not to mock what you do not understand. thank you. I've shown you no disrespect.


while im sorry for your lose you cannot bring "proof" of something to discussion up then declare it out of bounds for discussion


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> while im sorry for your lose you cannot bring "proof" of something to discussion up then declare it out of bounds for discussion


no i can't; but neither do i have to suffer the mockery of fools. fuck off.

i will not be goaded into providing parlour tricks for your appeasement. my experiences are mine. are you calling me a liar, sir?

if you are in fact calling me a liar, come out and say so... pussy.

do me a favor, don't just type it, say it out loud where you sit. please...


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

when you bring such fancies like "empty digital files" up then you deserve to be mocked

what format were they recorded in?


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> when you bring such fancies like "empty digital files" up then you deserve to be mocked
> 
> what format were they recorded in?


1st things 1st; are you calling me a liar?


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

im asking for evidence...

you could believe yourself with all your heart still doesn't make you right


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## karri0n (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> when you bring such fancies like "empty digital files" up then you deserve to be mocked
> 
> what format were they recorded in?



Are you retarded?

He's talking about a blank SD card.Not everyone knows precisely how digital media works.

Bobby:
He's attempting to detract from the argument by pointing out something he sees as technical ineptitude. There are no files on a blank digital storage device, just empty space.

As to the answer to the original question? Yes, ghosts are real. But you won't see them on Ghost Hunters or any similar television show. Some EVP may have some merit, most is interference.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

karri0n said:


> Are you retarded?
> 
> He's talking about a blank SD card.Not everyone knows precisely how digital media works.
> 
> ...



and what exactly do you use to play back a blank sd card? i've got one lying about here unused as of yet just it seems i have nothing to play it thru


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> and what exactly do you use to play back a blank sd card? i've got one lying about here unused as of yet just it seems i have nothing to play it thru


and you still haven't answered my question, so that makes a pretty strong argument for your being a coward as well as a fool.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> minutiae. fool.


lol whats that a program? codex for media player?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> is that because only english is spoken in the afterlife? people die everyday all over the world; not all of them speak english. i already told you radio interference has been ruled out; artifacts from a brand new blank tape and or empty digital file? give me break dude...


A Faraday cage was only used in a tiny amount of what people submit as EVP's. Unless the device used to record was completely passive, pareidolia has not been controlled for, and thus the scientific method has not been carried out.



bobbypyn said:


> there is a Divine Paradox at work in this field in that one must first believe in order to see, for belief after seeing is rather disingenuous and viewed with no small degree of contempt... the existence of God will not be pinned down by your puny science, but the realms of science and metaphysics are about to run head-long into each other. don't believe me; *i couldn't care less. I know what I know.*


So, after all you admit that evidence is not important to you. You just know what you know. I wonder, do you think that calling people names and defending your position with hostility makes you correct?

One thing you seem to 'know' is the concept of special pleading, since you use it quite often.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> and you still haven't answered my question, so that makes a pretty strong argument for your being a coward as well as a fool.



i think you believe every word that you say so in that sense i would not consider you a liar

if you were to ask if i thought you were highly deluded to the extent where you were fooled into thinking you were talking to you dead spouse

then i would say yes very much so


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> i think you believe every word that you say so in that sense i would not consider you a liar
> 
> if you were to ask if i thought you were highly deluded to the extent where you were fooled into thinking you were talking to you dead spouse
> 
> then i would say yes very much so


ok, fair enough. to be completely honest with you, had i not experienced these things for myself, i would continue to doubt their existence as well. but as I am no longer afforded the luxury of that ignorance, I am bound by the truth as I have experienced it.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ok, fair enough. to be completely honest with you, had i not experienced these things for myself, i would continue to doubt their existence as well. but as I am no longer afforded the luxury of that ignorance, I am bound by the truth as I have experienced it.


I think our point all along has been, human experience can not be trusted to draw any sort of conclusions, for what should be obvious reasons. Your point seems to be, you trust in feelings more than evidence or rational thinking. Which is a well known bias and one of the first things the scientific method controls for.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> A Faraday cage was only used in a tiny amount of what people submit as EVP's. Unless the device used to record was completely passive, pareidolia has not been controlled for, and thus the scientific method has not been carried out.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my lack of social graces notwithstanding, you admit that research was carried out in conditions that would make radio interference "bleed-throughs" impossible, correct?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> my lack of social graces notwithstanding, you admit that research was carried out in conditions that would make radio interference "bleed-throughs" impossible, correct?


As I understand it yes. The spiricom device was actually made to improve and control for some variables, much better than franks box. The Faraday cage only controls for outside interference, and not interference from any equipment inside, and so does not control for pareidolia.

EVP's and their history are a subject I have found interesting for a very long time, I just don't feel the experience warrants a supernatural theory. All I'm doing is pointing out a more worldly explanation, one that avoids the pitfalls of logic and perception built into the human experience. Something the EVP explanation does not do. It has all the earmarks of pseudoscience.


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## Dr.Nick (Jun 7, 2011)

Here are my thoughts. And a little story of my own.

I've seen some strange things. Some of these things I can't explain. Does that mean what I was observing was paranormal in nature? Possibly, but more likely it was something much more mundane. Here's one I can't explain. It could be coincidence, but it'd be one hell of a coincidence.

When I was younger my parents drug my siblings and I along on one of those historical homes tours. Lame. Maybe it's cool if you're fifty and into that sort of thing, but if your eleven and forced to go along as a mobile babysitter, not so much. Anyway, inside of one of these huge antebellum mansions my youngest sister (about five at the time) kept going on about some woman in a green dress on the third floor. You actually could see a good bit the third floor from the atrium, but it was empty, having been used as the house's ballroom. Anyway, I ignored her. The house hadn't actually been lived in for decades, just used for weddings and expensive holiday parties. Besides the tour group and the caretaker/guide we were the only ones on the grounds that day. Later on, the tour guide was talking about how the third floor was off limits due to safety concerns. Something about the staircases being in poor repair and not up to current code. Huh, ok, so sis is making crap up again. We move on and she (the tour guide) starts talking about about the house being used as a hospital during the civil war and how one of the nurses (actually the plantation owners daughter) died there during during the fighting and reputedly haunts the grounds. Weird. Then she tells us that the people that have seen this ghost claim to see a woman in a green dress. Ok, so this is really weird. Unsolicited and without any prior knowledge of the house or its ghost stories, my five year old sister has an experience that was nearly word for word what other people had seen. Was she frightened? Nope. She thought the dress was pretty and wanted to tell me about it. 

Dr.Nick


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> As I understand it yes. The spiricom device was actually made to improve and control for some variables, much better than franks box. The Faraday cage only controls for outside interference, and not interference from any equipment inside, and so does not control for pareidolia.
> 
> EVP's and their history are a subject I have found interesting for a very long time, I just don't feel the experience warrants a supernatural theory. All I'm doing is pointing out a more worldly explanation, one that avoids the pitfalls of logic and perception built into the human experience. Something the EVP explanation does not do. It has all the earmarks of pseudoscience.


so this is what we have been reduced to? taking our machine's findings as gospel when they contradict human experience? saddening. and your belief that our technology is impervious to spiritual influence is utter folly and lays the groundwork for dire times ahead.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> so this is what we have been reduced to? taking our machine's findings as gospel when they contradict human experience? saddening. and your belief that our technology is impervious to spiritual influence is utter folly and lays the groundwork for dire times ahead.


[youtube]o3g66FRUYww[/youtube]

we're very easily fooled


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

and for the record, what has been accomplished in the EVP field is the very definition of pseudoscience. but so was electricty at one point. our ancestors were not idiots; but the knowledge of the field was incomplete just as EVP research is today.

"When the great innovation appears, it will almost certainly be in incomplete and muddied form. to the discoverer himself it will be only half understood, to everyone else it will be a mystery, for any concept which at first glance does not appear crazy, there is no hope." Neils Bohr (again... you feelin me Heisenberg?)


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## Cali chronic (Jun 7, 2011)

NO but check out a documentary called Ancient Aliens then you can wonder about how we really got here.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

Cali chronic said:


> NO but check out a documentary called Ancient Aliens then you can wonder about how we really got here.


I've read Von Daniken and Zachariah's work extensively. waaaaaayyyyyy before this theory gained it's current popularity. aliens are time travelling humans.period. interfering in our development. there is no debate amongst the learned on the matter.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

Cali chronic said:


> NO but check out a documentary called Ancient Aliens then you can wonder about how we really got here.


now why don't YOU read the Kebra Negast as that Giorgio Whateverhisnameis guy suggests on the series.
"The most important book you've never heard of."- that dude

ever seen the end credits for that show? produced by Prometheus Productions. Prometheus being the god who gave mankind the knowledge of fire; making him the "light bearer" aka lucifer. never trust the Hitler Channel...

does nobody else remember when the History Channel was All Hitler, All the Time? seriously... it was gnar.


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## BillyBobJoe (Jun 7, 2011)

One time I came home from work and my ceiling fan was on turbo. Weirded me the fuck out. There was no way I would have turned it on and forgot about it in the middle of winter. I live alone and there is no way someone could have come in and turned it on to fuck with me.

Another sory is my cousins wife's. Her widow grandma who lives all alone in her old farm house had welcome mat on the front porch that kept getting rotated around during the night. She would turn it around back to the correct way and sure enough the next morning it would be turned back around towards the door. I can't remember how long this went on before someone put up a trail cam and caught the image of a face that looked just like the womans dead husband. wish I could remember more of that story, but I know when my cousins wife was telling us about it brought tears to her eyes so I'm sure she wasn't fucking with us.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 7, 2011)

here's my whole story...

http://www.itcbridge.com/forum/view_topic.php?id=1366&forum_id=26


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## karri0n (Jun 7, 2011)

BillyBobJoe said:


> One time I came home from work and my ceiling fan was on turbo. Weirded me the fuck out. There was no way I would have turned it on and forgot about it in the middle of winter. I live alone and there is no way someone could have come in and turned it on to fuck with me.
> 
> Another sory is my cousins wife's. Her widow grandma who lives all alone in her old farm house had welcome mat on the front porch that kept getting rotated around during the night. She would turn it around back to the correct way and sure enough the next morning it would be turned back around towards the door. I can't remember how long this went on before someone put up a trail cam and caught the image of a face that looked just like the womans dead husband. wish I could remember more of that story, but I know when my cousins wife was telling us about it brought tears to her eyes so I'm sure she wasn't fucking with us.



Could be the old woman messing with people or telling stories though.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 7, 2011)

Sorry for the lost of such a loved one. I read your story and I must toss in my two cents. I call BS. Not on you, but the ones that are conducting this channeling through text and calls. The deceased can communicate with others, even regular people like yourself. Normally that is done through dreams or odd things in house. There are Spirit Guides and such, but I have never heard of nor experienced anything like your story, nor have any of my "Medium" friends. Some work through man made tools and such and some like myself just have a God given talent to see through the veil with ease. Your spouse can feel your love and I am sure at times may be next to you. When you dream of her and remember it, write it down in detail and see if there is a hint of really communicating with her. 


bobbypyn said:


> here's my whole story...
> 
> http://www.itcbridge.com/forum/view_topic.php?id=1366&forum_id=26


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 7, 2011)

I see dead people  ......I think it all falls into that class of "most dont" until the see it for themselves. I spent the better part of my life a non believer but I have been converted. I have never seen a whole body aberration but I have certainly had interaction with the after life that has not been explained in any logic formula other than...ghost-spirits-afterlife energy --what ever it may be called.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> so this is what we have been reduced to? taking our *machine's* findings as *gospel* when they contradict human experience? saddening. and your belief that our technology is impervious to spiritual influence is utter folly and *lays the groundwork for dire times ahead*.


This is the same standard we apply to every science we practice, although not nearly as pretentious as you describe it in your attempts to poison the well. The scientific method controls for human imperfection. For you to attack the use of this control suggests you do not understand the scientific method. I took the time to explain why current technology does not detect ghosts. Your rebuttal is simply to call it folly without explanation? And I like that you finish with an appeal to final consequences, a well known invalid debate tactic.



bobbypyn said:


> and for the record, what has been accomplished in the EVP field is the very definition of pseudoscience. but so was electricty at one point. our ancestors were not idiots; but the knowledge of the field was incomplete just as EVP research is today.


Non sequitur. Aside from the fact that electricity had valid evidence, plausibility, and could be witnessed with each lightning strike, the working model of electricity has no bearing on if we should suspend doubt or bend our rules of evidence about ghosts. Explain to me how our findings on electricity justify making the jump in conclusion from unexplained to completely explained by ghosts. I am simply suggesting we should be consistent with our standards for conclusions. I gave you reasonable explanations and you gave me invalid debate tactics. Which do you think is a more genuine approach to reach the truth?

It seems that you have not given proper critical thought to the subject, and respond with hostility when others suggest doubt.


Colors blind; Sound deafens; Beauty beguiles; The enemy of stillness is desire. One must remove desire before finding the truth. - Kwai Chang Caine


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## wangyunan (Jun 7, 2011)

I don't but this is what I heard from one of my best buddies.
His father died when he was only 7, his mother remarried a guy a year later. his stepfather is a alcoholic, he got beaten badly everytime after his stepfather got drunk, and he told me many many times that he sees a dim but glowing human shape on the wall of his bedroom at night everytime he got beaten. he was not afraid at all, he told me that was his real father and he showed up everytime just to comfort him.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

wangyunan said:


> I don't but this is what I heard from one of my best buddies.
> His father died when he was only 7, his mother remarried a guy a year later. his stepfather is a alcoholic, he got beaten badly everytime after his stepfather got drunk, and he told me many many times that he sees a dim but glowing human shape on the wall of his bedroom at night everytime he got beaten. he was not afraid at all, he told me that was his real father and he showed up everytime just to comfort him.


Ghost stories are certainly enough reason to create interest. It is valid to want to explore this topic and find answers. It is not valid to lend this topic any sort of flexibility to the scientific method.



> Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific or pseudoscientific because various forms of cognitive bias may affect the collection or presentation of evidence. For instance, someone who claims to have had an encounter with a supernatural being or alien may present a very vivid story, but this is not falsifiable. This phenomenon can also happen to large groups of people through subjective validation.
> Anecdotal evidence is also frequently misinterpreted via the availability heuristic, which leads to an overestimation of prevalence. Where a cause can be easily linked to an effect, people overestimate the likelihood of the cause having that effect (availability). In particular, vivid, emotionally-charged anecdotes seem more plausible, and are given greater weight. A related issue is that it is usually impossible to assess for every piece of anecdotal evidence, the rate of people not reporting that anecdotal evidence in the population.
> A common way anecdotal evidence becomes unscientific is through fallacious reasoning such as the Post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy, the human tendency to assume that if one event happens after another, then the first must be the cause of the second. *Another fallacy involves inductive reasoning. For instance, if an anecdote illustrates a desired conclusion rather than a logical conclusion, it is considered a faulty or hasty generalization.*


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## Heisenberg (Jun 7, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Yes "Ghost" exist. How do I know? Well being I am a practicing Psychic Medium, I communicate with "ghosts" (spirits) on a regular basis. I have talked to spirits from as as early as 20 mins after dieing, and as far back as 1800s . I once was even visited by a rock n roll celebratory .
> I understand completely *many of you will laugh and call me a fraud, or even worse ask me to "prove it" l*ol. None the less I have nothing but respect for all, knowing one day you too will die and know for your selfs that past life is only the beginning of being.


Well I'm not going to ask you to prove anything, but I wonder... For what reason do you put it in those terms? You consider being asked to defend your belief to be worse than ridicule or being called a fraud? Do you not require reasonable proof for yourself when choosing to believe something? If you can so easily and abundantly talk to spirits, can you not think of a test you could design that would provide at least a tiny bit of evidence?

I sometimes imagine how exciting it would be to have a genuine psychic (assuming they exist) sit down and be subjected to the scientific method, and have everything pan out. What a completely ground breaking and incredibly important discovery that would be. Sadly, despite many attempts, it has never happened.


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## Derple (Jun 8, 2011)

Yup, I do, I just believe they can't affect us in any way because they belong to a separate dimension of being.


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 8, 2011)

So many experiences, so little proof. Actually theres not even a little proof. All I've seen are reports by people who believe this stuff works but have yet to prove anything. Next time one of you connects with a spirit, record and share. It'd be so easy to prove me wrong if in fact ghosts were real. They're a figment of our imagination created by our cultures and perpetuated by fear and our inability to reason.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 8, 2011)

It's very boring to hear people say "proof It". Many people know of my gift and never ask me to "read them" or channel a past loved one,etc. But they also know that if I see something in there future that they should know about, I tell them. Or if there is a spirit trying to contact them for a message or a simple hello, I have no issues telling them. I guess I want people to keep an open mind, but I prefer the natural way and not have a line formed in front of me with skeptics and the like.
Has forming a test that would proof my God given gifts, well thats not needed. I just come straight at the person that needs to be warned or prepared for future, or if there is a spirit or more around them I just tell them what I see / hear and it falls in place like easy. Just think if you where talking with a friend, then they say to you, "hey just to let you know, I am a Psychic Medium and there is a friend of yours feels like a brother but not blood related and they have a bunk left eye, young like 20-22 and they want to say they ~~~~~. Thats how easy it is. Come to find out this spirit was my friends step brother who shot himself under the chin and it came out his left eye. Now if you where her what would you think ? Oh and by the way, she has been telling me there was a ghost in her house for several months now.
Also I would like to add in truth that this only takes a single moment to communicate with or ssee into one's life from any distance. There is no prep work or burning of candles, etc etc needed. My friend (above) texted my wife and said "ask Golden if I know the ghost in my house" after my wife read that I felt a great sensation and I told her that we would deal with it later. 3 days later she comes over to my house and asked again and I just told her what I saw (above) and she told me about her step brother and how he killed himself and also about these dreams she has been having of him, like the same dream over and over. That we have not looked into. Goes to far back to her early childhood days, and I feel it is best to leave it there.


Heisenberg said:


> Well I'm not going to ask you to prove anything, but I wonder... For what reason do you put it in those terms? You consider being asked to defend your belief to be worse than ridicule or being called a fraud? Do you not require reasonable proof for yourself when choosing to believe something? If you can so easily and abundantly talk to spirits, can you not think of a test you could design that would provide at least a tiny bit of evidence?
> 
> I sometimes imagine how exciting it would be to have a genuine psychic (assuming they exist) sit down and be subjected to the scientific method, and have everything pan out. What a completely ground breaking and incredibly important discovery that would be. Sadly, despite many attempts, it has never happened.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 8, 2011)

The beauty of living is that we can decided for ourself's if we belief in "ghosts" or not. The wonderful part of dieing is that we start to see the other side of the veil and we have no choice but to see and then be, still being (spirit) but not in a body. Basically I am saying that once we die, well the truth will shine. You have no choice in the matter.


mouthmeetsoap said:


> So many experiences, so little proof. Actually theres not even a little proof. All I've seen are reports by people who believe this stuff works but have yet to prove anything. Next time one of you connects with a spirit, record and share. It'd be so easy to prove me wrong if in fact ghosts were real. They're a figment of our imagination created by our cultures and perpetuated by fear and our inability to reason.


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## wangyunan (Jun 8, 2011)

I bet many of u have watched "ancient aliens" from History channel, the show is trying to convince people that "Gods" of every religion are actually living creatures from other planets. They don't have solid proof but what they said is somewhat convincing. So, let's think over base on this, gods and ghosts are always in the same systems and in most of time they are opposite to each other or even enemies, I'm not saying that ghosts are bad aliens, use your imagination maybe everyone can figure out a correct answer of your own. To me, ghosts are not some kinda invincible shadow or smoke or force field from someone's dead corpse. To me, ghosts are just living flesh creatures that mythologized by early human beings. so no I don't believe in "ghosts" and yes I do believe in ghosts(mythologized creatures)


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## Enigma684 (Jun 8, 2011)

i belive in ghost when i first moved into my current home it used to open my closet door


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## Carne Seca (Jun 8, 2011)

There is a big difference between a skeptic and an asshole. Skeptics debunk and find alternate explanations. Assholes mock and ridicule.


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## Jeffdt1966 (Jun 8, 2011)

Los Muertos said:


> I'd like to believe in ghosts, but I don't.


 
ikr... it sounds so fun ... but alas ... rational thinking and all ........


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## guy incognito (Jun 8, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> It's very boring to hear people say "proof It". Many people know of my gift and never ask me to "read them" or channel a past loved one,etc. But they also know that if I see something in there future that they should know about, I tell them. Or if there is a spirit trying to contact them for a message or a simple hello, I have no issues telling them. I guess I want people to keep an open mind, but I prefer the natural way and not have a line formed in front of me with skeptics and the like.
> Has forming a test that would proof my God given gifts, well thats not needed. I just come straight at the person that needs to be warned or prepared for future, or if there is a spirit or more around them I just tell them what I see / hear and it falls in place like easy. Just think if you where talking with a friend, then they say to you, "hey just to let you know, I am a Psychic Medium and there is a friend of yours feels like a brother but not blood related and they have a bunk left eye, young like 20-22 and they want to say they ~~~~~. Thats how easy it is. Come to find out this spirit was my friends step brother who shot himself under the chin and it came out his left eye. Now if you where her what would you think ? Oh and by the way, she has been telling me there was a ghost in her house for several months now.
> Also I would like to add in truth that this only takes a single moment to communicate with or ssee into one's life from any distance. There is no prep work or burning of candles, etc etc needed. My friend (above) texted my wife and said "ask Golden if I know the ghost in my house" after my wife read that I felt a great sensation and I told her that we would deal with it later. 3 days later she comes over to my house and asked again and I just told her what I saw (above) and she told me about her step brother and how he killed himself and also about these dreams she has been having of him, like the same dream over and over. That we have not looked into. Goes to far back to her early childhood days, and I feel it is best to leave it there.


If it's so boring why don't you just put up and prove it then? You would be exceedingly rich AND famous if you could offer real evidence, as you would be the first and only to ever do so.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 8, 2011)

Rich and famous~ Many moons ago I used to frequent a Mystic shop and it was not long before the owner understood how gifted I was without all the man made tools. She gave me a number to call and said I could be rich doing readings over the phone. So I called the number she gave and the guy running the "psychic hotline" told me all I have to do is keep them talking and you will eventually know what they want to hear. I declined the job. Made me sick that this guy was trying to tell me how to fraud a reading over the phone. I decided from that point to never take a dime from reading/etc . I believe there are more frauds than truly gifted.
Prove it~ At one time in my life I was running a chat room and giving free readings and Medium channeling. I was doing 1-2 every 15 mins and as always I was very impressive and could not be debunked. I mean how can you when someone is talking to you and saying things that only you know or can see. I printed them out and showed some of my family. Well they though I was a "devil worshiper" so I tossed the idea of possibly putting it all in a book of some sorts. Speaking of books, well there are many true and fake stories out there, so I see no reason to add mine. 
Evidence ~ Is what I give when I give a reading or channeling. When I know nothing but a first name, and some times no face (online) but can describe the person/s and place, well that would only be the beginning of evidence that I am no fraud and what I am saying is truth. Those things can not be written in a book or said in front of a large crowd, without someoneshouting out "fraud". I do not believe you can show evidence on a scale for all to see, just the one you are with. 
One person at a time, while they are living. Once dead, well they need no more evidence, just a medium to channel for them 


guy incognito said:


> If it's so boring why don't you just put up and prove it then? You would be exceedingly rich AND famous if you could offer real evidence, as you would be the first and only to ever do so.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Rich and famous~ Many moons ago I used to frequent a Mystic shop and it was not long before the owner understood how gifted I was without all the man made tools. She gave me a number to call and said I could be rich doing readings over the phone. So I called the number she gave and the guy running the "psychic hotline" told me all I have to do is keep them talking and you will eventually know what they want to hear. I declined the job. Made me sick that this guy was trying to tell me how to fraud a reading over the phone. I decided from that point to never take a dime from reading/etc . I believe there are more frauds than truly gifted.
> Prove it~ At one time in my life I was running a chat room and giving free readings and Medium channeling. I was doing 1-2 every 15 mins and as always I was very impressive and could not be debunked. I mean how can you when someone is talking to you and saying things that only you know or can see. I printed them out and showed some of my family. Well they though I was a "devil worshiper" so I tossed the idea of possibly putting it all in a book of some sorts. Speaking of books, well there are many true and fake stories out there, so I see no reason to add mine.
> Evidence ~ Is what I give when I give a reading or channeling. When I know nothing but a first name, and some times no face (online) but can describe the person/s and place, well that would only be the beginning of evidence that I am no fraud and what I am saying is truth. Those things can not be written in a book or said in front of a large crowd, without someoneshouting out "fraud". I do not believe you can show evidence on a scale for all to see, just the one you are with.
> One person at a time, while they are living. Once dead, well they need no more evidence, just a medium to channel for them


So essentially what we have here is a genuine psychic who helps people. Hanging out in a chat giving free readings, and professing how much he/she enjoys helping out these desperate individuals and doing it for the most righteous reasons. This person is helping for the sake of helping and not angling to make a buck.

At the same time this person finds it too 'boring' to help provide insight and evidence into this psychic world, an action that would end up helping millions if it panned out. It seems even though providing proof would be keeping in step with the reported goal of helping people, it's still avoided. This person claims to be able to do something that will change everything we know about the Universe, something that could help more people than any other discovery we have made, and they want to keep it to themselves? That seems to be extraordinarily selfish, and in the context of someone who claims to want to help, hypocritical.



> When I know nothing but a first name, and some times no face (online) but can describe the person/s and place, well that would only be the beginning of evidence that I am no fraud and what I am saying is truth.


This can not be counted as evidence because the possibility of cold reading has not been controlled for. 



> *Cold reading* - is a series of techniques used by mentalists, illusionists, and con artists to determine or express details about another person, often in order to convince them that the reader knows much more about a subject than they actually do. *Without prior knowledge of a person, a practiced cold reader can still quickly obtain a great deal of information about the subject *by analyzing the person's body language, age, clothing or fashion, hairstyle, gender, sexual orientation, religion, race or ethnicity, level of education, manner of speech, place of origin, etc. Cold readers commonly employ high probability guesses about the subject, quickly picking up on signals from their subjects as to whether their guesses are in the right direction or not, and then emphasizing and reinforcing any chance connections the subjects acknowledge while quickly moving on from missed guesses.


So cold reading describes exactly what you are describing, which doesn't mean anything other than the need for a control. Cold reading does not necessarily suggest deceitful intent. You could be cold reading without realizing it. Just because your description sounds exactly like a cold reading does not mean that is what's happening, but unless cold reading has been controlled for, the experience can not be counted as evidence, and no 'debunking' has been achieved. 



> I do not believe you can show evidence on a scale for all to see, just the one you are with.


Then you do not understand evidence, how it's gathered or how it's classified. And that's fine, no one is expecting you to be a scientist. I am simply pointing out that you could, quite easily, provide proof for more than just the individual you are reading. To claim otherwise is avoidance.

Finally lets not forget the million dollar prize. You have professed how easy and abundantly you can talk to spirits. You would be a shoe-in for the million dollar prize awarded to anyone who can demonstrate psychic ability. You have also professed your desire to help others and not to personally gain from the experience. I seriously doubt you would be motivated by a million dollars, as righteous as you are. In that case why not give the million dollars to charity? I mean after all, you have told us what a simple matter it is to demonstrate this, it seems it would be a simple matter and take little time to win the prize, and thus do a great deal to help the world.

If boredom was holding you back before, don't you find a million dollars to be enough motivation? For charity, for the advancement of knowledge, for the potential help that would be provided to millions; and all just for doing something you claim to do every day.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

Heisy... you're kinda missing the point here; they do not want to provide us with proof of their existence, for it would negate the element of faith that is so crucial to facilitating contact with the other side, so the Million Dollar Prize will never be claimed. Metascience Foundation produced the closest thing to proof we will ever get and all they received was derision and mockery. I feel their frustration.... there are rules of engagement that prevent the "proof" you seek from manifesting. all i can do is offer to meet you in person and then i can show you, for it is all situation specific. I would offer to introduce you to some "dead" people, but your lack of faith prevents this. Pity... I'd like to see you try to explain my experiences with "cold reading" claims.


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Heisy... you're kinda missing the point here; they do not want to provide us with proof of their existence, for it would negate the element of faith that is so crucial to facilitating contact with the other side, so the Million Dollar Prize will never be claimed. Metascience Foundation produced the closest thing to proof we will ever get and all they received was derision and mockery. I feel their frustration.... there are rules of engagement that prevent the "proof" you seek from manifesting. all i can do is offer to meet you in person and then i can show you, for it is all situation specific. I would offer to introduce you to some "dead" people, but your lack of faith prevents this. Pity... I'd like to see you try to explain my experiences with "cold reading" claims.


How convenient.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

I don't make the rules. and actually it's quite INconvenient to me at times such as these. You are sadly mistaken if you think I wouldn't LOVE to shut you fools up with some concrete evidence, but alas it is not to be. Only those who seek will find. and for the record, I have voluntarily subjected myself to two different psych evals since all this stuff started in my life. I passed both with flying colors and with a 186 and 172 on the intelligence quotient tests. My daughter is in her first year of her doctoral program for psychology and we spend lots of time together; i would know if i was insane.


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

So it's like invisible boy from mystery men. He can turn himself invisible, but only when no one is looking. As soon as someone looks they see him.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> So it's like invisible boy from mystery men. He can turn himself invisible, but only when no one is looking. As soon as someone looks they see him.


YES!!!! precisely like that. *eye roll*


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Heisy... you're kinda missing the point here; they do not want to provide us with proof of their existence, for it would negate the element of faith that is so crucial to facilitating contact with the other side, so the Million Dollar Prize will never be claimed. Metascience Foundation produced the closest thing to proof we will ever get and all they received was derision and mockery. I feel their frustration.... there are rules of engagement that prevent the "proof" you seek from manifesting. all i can do is offer to meet you in person and then i can show you, for it is all situation specific. I would offer to introduce you to some "dead" people, but your lack of faith prevents this. Pity... I'd like to see you try to explain my experiences with "cold reading" claims.


This is known as special pleading, another common invalid debate tactic. You are saying that the subject of ghosts and ghostly communication should be exempt from the standards of evidence we apply to everything else. The only justification you give for this exemption is, ghosts want it that way. There is no plausibility or even a suggestion of a working mechanism that prevents non-believers from having the experience, yet you seem certain. Your argument boils down to, only those who believe are capable of believing. A situation which excludes doubt, and promotes ignorance. Since when does finding the truth require accepting ignorance?

I did not explain your situation with cold reading. What I did was offer pareidolia as an alternative and more reasonable explanation. Something you didn't even comment on. Have you even asked yourself, could this be pareidolia? Have you completely ruled out hoax? Wouldn't you want to explore all possibilities to be confident your conclusions are correct? If not,then you must admit some sort of bias or laziness. You must admit a willingness to believe without being convinced, which is no way to reach the truth.

Some of us choose to approach reality with a systematic way of carefully and thoroughly observing nature while using consistent logic to evaluate the results. Explain where the fault lies in that and motivates you to call us fools. Is it being systematic, being careful and thorough when observing, or using consistent logic? In any case, you are saying we are foolish to not accept faith as a reason to jump in conclusion from unexplained to explained by ghosts. If you want to site faith as your position, then you have to withdraw yourself from the argument, because you simply aren't capable of defending or even explaining your claims. The best you can say is, I believe this but I don't know why, and that isn't really any help to anyone at all. At best, it simply leaves your opinion without merit.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Heisy... you're kinda missing the point here; they do not want to provide us with proof of their existence, for it would negate the element of faith that is so crucial to facilitating contact with the other side, so the Million Dollar Prize will never be claimed. Metascience Foundation produced the closest thing to proof we will ever get and all they received was derision and mockery. I feel their frustration.... there are rules of engagement that prevent the "proof" you seek from manifesting. all i can do is offer to meet you in person and then i can show you, for it is all situation specific. I would offer to introduce you to some "dead" people, but your lack of faith prevents this. Pity... I'd like to see you try to explain my experiences with "cold reading" claims.



It also occurs to me that you just figured out a legitimate way to win the million dollar prize yourself!! You say you can convince people one on one, unless of course they don't have faith, in which case it never works. You sit in a room and we separately send in (x) number of people. Some will be believers, some skeptics. If you can identify the skeptics with an accuracy greater than random chance, you win the prize.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 9, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> So essentially what we have here is a genuine psychic who helps people. Hanging out in a chat giving free readings, and professing how much he/she enjoys helping out these desperate individuals and doing it for the most righteous reasons. This person is helping for the sake of helping and not angling to make a buck.
> 
> At the same time this person finds it too 'boring' to help provide insight and evidence into this psychic world, an action that would end up helping millions if it panned out. It seems even though providing proof would be keeping in step with the reported goal of helping people, it's still avoided. This person claims to be able to do something that will change everything we know about the Universe, something that could help more people than any other discovery we have made, and they want to keep it to themselves? That seems to be extraordinarily selfish, and in the context of someone who claims to want to help, hypocritical.


 What we have here is a lack of communications~
I AM A GENUINE PSYCHIC/MEDIUM, Correct. Hanging out and helping Desperate people? Who said that? No sir, I work more like this~ A spirit will come to me and say, "that is my wife and I would like to talk to her". So I I.M. the person in room and tell them there is a lady next to them and she says she is your wife, I describe the lady and the husband gets excited knowing that I described his wife and it's the real deal. You see when you hunt out desperate people, well you are in for a long chat and forever being sought out being you can communicate with there loved one. But done in a more natural way, works best for all. That shows the Medium is genuine being they brought 2 people together with out being asked or any information.
.
The information and proof is spreader by TOP Psychics and Mediums (Sylvia Brown, just one) and still yet there are many dis believers, so why would I make a change in millions of minds?

At the end of your life journey, you will know more than you ever had, so just keep your mind closed for now, it seems to work for you.

I help many many people, in many ways. Keeping them from taking a left when they need to stay right to be safe,etc.

Selfish, far from. But it sure is easy to call one selfish, isn't it. 

~Namaste


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 9, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> What we have here is a lack of communications~
> I AM A GENUINE PSYCHIC/MEDIUM,
> .
> The information and proof is spreader by TOP Psychics and Mediums (Sylvia Brown, just one)
> ...


i was going to stay out of this thread but...

[youtube]YuPadpaTwKY[/youtube]


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

So are you being real or a troll? Good job either way. 

BTW Sylvia Browne...LOL!

Just in case someone might mistake anything you say as being truthful or accurate:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylvia_Browne


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

nothing exceeds the smugness of ignorance. ahhhh... to be mercifully free of the ravages of intelligence.


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

ironic isnt it


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> This is known as special pleading, another common invalid debate tactic. You are saying that the subject of ghosts and ghostly communication should be exempt from the standards of evidence we apply to everything else........ End quote.
> 
> ok then what does a spirit weigh? you're trying to apply the materialistic limitations of this dimension to what lies beyond. ever heard of John A. Wheeler? all that the mind can conceive, exists.


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

Still special pleading. The spirit world lies beyond our worldly dimension and therefor cannot be measured by anything existing in this dimension. Except of course for your mind...


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> ironic isnt it


 
........tis.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> Still special pleading. The spirit world lies beyond our worldly dimension and therefor cannot be measured by anything existing in this dimension. Except of course for your mind...


take it up with Wheeler; it's his theory, he just so happens to be correct.

and I call shenanigans on your claims of "special pleading" on the following grounds: ya'll are hypothetically presenting me with a mathematical problem that euclidian thought is incapable of expressing, so when I try to quantify the unknown variables in your equation, you scream "SPECIAL PLEADING!!!" ummm.... no. just more advanced mathematics than you know of; algebraic thought trying to be constrained within the frame of simple addition and subtraction.

counterpoint?


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> take it up with Wheeler; it's his theory, he just so happens to be correct.
> 
> and I call shenanigans on your claims of "special pleading" on the following grounds: ya'll are hypothetically presenting me with a mathematical problem that euclidian thought is incapable of expressing, so when I try to quantify the unknown variables in your equation, you scream "SPECIAL PLEADING!!!" ummm.... no. just more advanced mathematics than you know of; algebraic thought trying to be constrained within the frame of simple addition and subtraction.
> 
> counterpoint?


Now I just gotta call you out on being a liar.

You claimed:



bobbypyn said:


> Heisy... you're kinda missing the point here; they do not want to provide us with proof of their existence, for it would negate the element of faith that is so crucial to facilitating contact with the other side, so the Million Dollar Prize will never be claimed. Metascience Foundation produced the closest thing to proof we will ever get and all they received was derision and mockery. I feel their frustration.... there are rules of engagement that prevent the "proof" you seek from manifesting. all i can do is offer to meet you in person and then i can show you, for it is all situation specific. I would offer to introduce you to some "dead" people, but your lack of faith prevents this. Pity... I'd like to see you try to explain my experiences with "cold reading" claims.


You are not trying to quantify unknown variables as you claim. You are saying they are completely unmeasurable by any means, by definition. Any attempt to measure or quantify anything results in negation of the very thing you are trying to observe.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

You're over-simplifying and exagerating what i say. do watch that... what i said was that the element of faith must be preserved. this is cold hard fact that you so dearly cling to, so when i present it as such, you cry foul. how would you care to quantify human experience? have they got the neural interface shit set up yet?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ok then what does a spirit weigh? you're trying to apply the materialistic limitations of this dimension to what lies beyond. ever heard of John A. Wheeler? all that the mind can conceive, exists.


Well at least you are trying to provide justification for your special pleading, instead of simply 'ghosts don't like it'. Can science learn about non materialistic things? Is gravity materialistic? How much have we learned about that? Is there anything to suggest that 'what lies beyond' is not subject to rules of this dimension, or is that another assumption? This characteristic you sight as justification for inconsistent reasoning, immateriality, is present in many things science understands well.



bobbypyn said:


> take it up with Wheeler; it's his theory, he just so happens to be correct.
> 
> and I call shenanigans on your claims of "special pleading" on the following grounds: ya'll are hypothetically presenting me with a mathematical problem that euclidian thought is incapable of expressing, so when I try to quantify the unknown variables in your equation, you scream "SPECIAL PLEADING!!!" ummm.... no. just more advanced mathematics than you know of; algebraic thought trying to be constrained within the frame of simple addition and subtraction.
> 
> counterpoint?


We are not presenting you with any sort of problem. You are presenting us with a claim. We are simply subjecting this claim to the same systematic process of doubt to which we subject every claim. You then decided to present a reason why your claim should be excused from this method. Without doubt we ask no questions, and without questions we get no answers, only ignorance. True claims tend to hold up to even the most rigorous efforts of doubt. False claims tend to eventually fall into predictable pitfalls, such as special pleading.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

why am I doing this!?!? ya know what? I'm starting to hope you remain steadfast in your beliefs that consciousness ceases to exist at the moment the physical body expires (which is a clear violation of the fact that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but I digress...) for whatever you perceive to be the truth is what you experience in the afterlife, so in actuality what your belief system will dictate is that you simply turn off like a light bulb for all eternity; you still exist, but you think you don't, so you don't. It's all very subjective. have fun, homey.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

Heisy... my private offer still stands. if you choose not to accept it, that is more than ok, but I would ask that you refrain from further derision if you should choose not to accept my offer. I sympathize with your predicament in that I know how hard some things are to unlearn, but it is what it is. there is a world beyond our ability to conceive just on the other side of this tattered veil.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> What we have here is a lack of communications~
> I AM A GENUINE PSYCHIC/MEDIUM, Correct. Hanging out and helping Desperate people? Who said that? No sir, I work more like this~ A spirit will come to me and say, "that is my wife and I would like to talk to her". So I I.M. the person in room and tell them there is a lady next to them and she says she is your wife, I describe the lady and the husband gets excited knowing that I described his wife and it's the real deal. You see when you hunt out desperate people, well you are in for a long chat and forever being sought out being you can communicate with there loved one. But done in a more natural way, works best for all. That shows the Medium is genuine being they brought 2 people together with out being asked or any information.
> .
> The information and proof is spreader by TOP Psychics and Mediums (Sylvia Brown, just one) and still yet there are many dis believers, so why would I make a change in millions of minds?
> ...


Sylvia has herself dodged taking the test many times; I think it was around the time she told Shawn Hornbeck's parents he was dead, and then again around the time Shawn Hornbeck was found alive. I think the real question should be, why haven't you yourself wondered these things about Sylvia? You seem to be dismissing the challenge with "ah, who would believe me anyway" yet you explained how easy it would be to demonstrate. The reason no one has payed attention to Sylvia or any psychic for that matter is, they all take the same position as you... non-interest in demonstrating the ability scientifically, despite the sheer ease of the task. I see you also like to use ad hominem attacks like Sylvia, pretending the desire for proof and having consistent standards for proof is a result of a closed mind.


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

I know exactly what you said, I quoted it twice. 

The element of faith has absolutely nothing to do with anything. Why would my faith have anything to do with whether a ghost exists or not?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> why am I doing this!?!? ya know what? I'm starting to hope you remain steadfast in your beliefs that consciousness ceases to exist at the moment the physical body expires (*which is a clear violation of the fact that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but I digress...*) for whatever you perceive to be the truth is what you experience in the afterlife, so in actuality what your belief system will dictate is that you simply turn off like a light bulb for all eternity; you still exist, but you think you don't, so you don't. It's all very subjective. have fun, homey.


What is energy? Is it E=MC2? In fact, energy only ever means one thing, a measurable work potential; the ability to do work. So you are saying our consciousness is a form of an ability to do work? Which form is that? Our brains and bodies obviously utilize energy, but if you think consciousnesses qualifies an any sort of energy as we know it, then you do not understand energy, or the laws of thermodynamics. If it is not energy as we know it, then why do you feel it is subject to the same rules? If you want to explain your position using scientific terms, you can't alter their definitions. 




bobbypyn said:


> Heisy... my private offer still stands. if you choose not to accept it, that is more than ok, but I would ask that you refrain from further derision if you should choose not to accept my offer. I sympathize with your predicament in that I know how hard some things are to unlearn, but it is what it is. there is a world beyond our ability to conceive just on the other side of this tattered veil.


In other words, you refuse to subject your beliefs to any more doubt, doubt that is perfectly reasonable and justifiable, and want me to just drop it. You feel sorry for me and then restate your claim once again. Well drop it I will, I love debate and covet the truth, but I do not harass.


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## guy incognito (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> why am I doing this!?!? ya know what? I'm starting to hope you remain steadfast in your beliefs that consciousness ceases to exist at the moment the physical body expires (which is a clear violation of the fact that energy can be neither created nor destroyed, but I digress...) for whatever you perceive to be the truth is what you experience in the afterlife, so in actuality what your belief system will dictate is that you simply turn off like a light bulb for all eternity; you still exist, but you think you don't, so you don't. It's all very subjective. have fun, homey.


Please elaborate how that is a violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics.


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## BillyBobJoe (Jun 9, 2011)

One thing I've learned from reading on this thread is there are some weird fucks on here. I remember in high school there was a kid that thought he was magic. He even had a book of spells he made up. I think he thought if he believed and truly believed he was magic he would be. Sadly he was wrong. Now he is a sex offender. Go figure.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 9, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> Please elaborate how that is a violation of the 1st law of thermodynamics.


Is there not electromagnetic energy that courses through the human body? what happens to this energy at the moment of death if not it's continuation in an unseen realm? why does the human body exhibit a measurable difference in weight between a living being and a dead one? it weighs more because it is charged with potential energy, just as a compressed spring weighs slightly more than one at rest. simple enough for ya Homey?

that having been said, i feel the need to clarify one crucial point; I never said that blind faith was necessary to facilitate what I have experienced; quite the contrary in fact. what IS required is the willing acceptance of the possibility that it is real, for if blind faith were the desired outcome, life would cease to have meaning. everybody dwelling on earth in this age has been here before; most not by choice, but a few venture back here voluntarily to achieve certain goals. we all depart heaven with the same goal, to show our Creator that we love him, but unfortunately few succeed in this endeavor and ever fewer as the ages progress hence the degree of treachery in returning is exponentially greater with each passing generation. the materialistic world is a trap and the greater our understanding of it becomes, the more we are programmed to ignore the mystical. Why do you think young children are so prone to play make-believe? they know they are creating universes by doing so; they retain a glimmer of why they came here, but society soon beats this sense of wonder out of them and they become "rational thinkers." truly saddening. It must be excruciating for your souls to have to live with a materialistic veil pulled so tightly over your perceptions. and for those who would continue to mock me, that is fine, for so it always is in the beginning of every Great Truth. as you are, I was. as I am, you will be. Namaste.


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## mindphuk (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> I have voluntarily subjected myself to two different psych evals since all this stuff started in my life. I passed both with flying colors and with a 186 and 172 on the intelligence quotient tests.


Is this some sort of IQ scale that you made up? Maybe you are just one of the few super geniuses in existence and we just never heard about you. 

It's so convenient for woo woo artists when empirical evidence is not only elusive to those that actually care about empirical evidence but the very act of skepticism somehow eliminates the ability to provide such evidence. And to top it off, you then label these skeptics smug and arrogant, attempt to poison the well against anyone that has the intellectual fortitude to call bullshit when they see it. 


Let's not even talk about misquoting someone like Neils Bohr to make it seem like he would support such unfalsifiable and untestable woo woo.


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## mindphuk (Jun 9, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Is there not electromagnetic energy that courses through the human body? what happens to this energy at the moment of death if not it's continuation in an unseen realm? why does the human body exhibit a measurable difference in weight between a living being and a dead one? it weighs more because it is charged with potential energy, just as a compressed spring weighs slightly more than one at rest. simple enough for ya Homey?


 The body generates energy through a series of biochemical processes that are understood very well. When the body dies, these processes are no longer able to operate, sort of the definition of death, whether a single cell or the whole system. So nothing 'happens' to the energy except that nothing is producing it anymore. What happens to a battery when it dies? Do we have spiritual Everyreadys and Durcells floating around in this unseen realm too? 

The body does not change mass when it dies, there is no weight difference, measurable or otherwise. Stop using pseudo-scientific. non-replicable sources to back up your claims, it just exposes you for someone that hasn't learned to evaluate evidence very well. Simple enough for you sweetheart?


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## borntoshine (Jun 9, 2011)

LOL Oh sh!t I didn't think this thread would take off. I'm going to smoke a joint and read all of this stuff.


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## heathaa (Jun 9, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> Another explanation is that the mistakes of perception, logic and memory that cause people to believe in ghosts are inherit to the human experience and therefore have been around as long as humans. Some people still believe the world is flat, a theory that has been around a long time, does it's age give it any sort of validity?
> 
> I am not knocking the observation, only the conclusion. I also find it interesting as to why ghost stories persist. I mean after all, they are all pretty similar and transcend era, culture, location, upbringing, ect. These people are not just inventing pink unicorns out of the air, they are all having a similar experience. There must be _something_ to it.
> 
> ...


 yeah but if you seen what we say u would know its not a hallucination as 4 of us seen the same thing. it was deffinately something outside our normal understanding


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 9, 2011)

Something to think about, she didn't make MILLIONS being the best fraud. She made millions being good and proofing it over many many years. She did fraud that one that's fer sure.


Heisenberg said:


> Sylvia has herself dodged taking the test many times; I think it was around the time she told Shawn Hornbeck's parents he was dead, and then again around the time Shawn Hornbeck was found alive. I think the real question should be, why haven't you yourself wondered these things about Sylvia? You seem to be dismissing the challenge with "ah, who would believe me anyway" yet you explained how easy it would be to demonstrate. The reason no one has payed attention to Sylvia or any psychic for that matter is, they all take the same position as you... non-interest in demonstrating the ability scientifically, despite the sheer ease of the task. I see you also like to use ad hominem attacks like Sylvia, pretending the desire for proof and having consistent standards for proof is a result of a closed mind.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 9, 2011)

I can not defend her lie's on that case, but I can and always will defend those that are genuine. Which I believe she is, I have no doubt.Guess she got greedy after all those years. Something you will not understand (while living), being a psychic/medium is just like breathing air. It comes to us naturally and with simple ease.


GoldenGanja13 said:


> Something to think about, she didn't make MILLIONS being the best fraud. She made millions being good and proofing it over many many years. She did fraud that one that's fer sure.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

heathaa said:


> yeah but if you seen what we say u would know its not a hallucination as 4 of us seen the same thing. it was deffinately something outside our normal understanding


Folie à deux offers just one alternative, and more reasonable, explanation. Multiple people can see a mirage, yet it isn't real. Something that is outside your understanding is not automatically outside the ability to understand.



GoldenGanja13 said:


> Something to think about, she didn't make MILLIONS being the best fraud. She made millions being good and proofing it over many many years. She did fraud that one that's fer sure.


It must be nice to just say things and think they are true. What sort of world do you live in? We have been discussing for a while how psychic abilities are unproven, and now you claim she has proven herself. Once again, your requirement for proof is disproportional to the enormity of your belief. To you, a dollar amount entails proof? This is known as an appeal to wealth. I could easily say, skeptic society X has made billions of dollars, and they didn't make that by being wrong. Would you accept that line of reasoning from me? Also, your suggesting that Sylvia sometimes, or at least one time, used her reported powers to scam someone, but not every time?


Just for good measure, Does the soul have weight?


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## Priest (Jun 9, 2011)

Definitely, the house I grew up in was haunted. The old man that died there made regular appearances and every once in a while we would see the ghosts of a mom and daughter that committed suicide sometime after we refused to hire the mom for a nanny position (perhaps justified lol). Being alone in that house was terrifying didn't know what it was like in a normal house until I was around 15


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## Heisenberg (Jun 9, 2011)

Well early on in this thread I made a claim. Most belief in ghosts stems from common mistakes of logic, perception, and memory. We then see a couple people, who I thank for their efforts and openness, defend their belief in ghosts. Each step along the way, we saw more and more of those mistakes come to light. I wasn't just using 'mistakes' as a generic word. These mistakes are well known, well documented, and have names. I have pointed out many here, and no doubt we will see more. It's interesting how all pseudoscience beliefs fall victim to these mistakes, and all want special consideration for making them.


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## wayno30 (Jun 9, 2011)

preist...........wasnt that on a lifetime movie ......i swear i was sitting in here and that was on in there couple days ago?


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## jesco51 (Jun 9, 2011)

ehhh something unexplainable happens and instanly someone thinks/yells "OH SHIT, GHOST!" Its like cooome on.


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## Priest (Jun 9, 2011)

wayno30 said:


> preist...........wasnt that on a lifetime movie ......i swear i was sitting in here and that was on in there couple days ago?


Nope that was my house. Kinda messed up  My room had to be blessed so I could sleep in it as a toddler, later on my mom says she walked in and I was playing by myself but talking to someone. When she asked who I was talking to I replied "the silent boy" and she said why is he silent? She says I put my finger up to my mouth and said "sssshhh he doesn't talk". Really freaked her out since I had just learned to talk yet I knew the word "silent". Alot of weird shit happened there,  not projected memories my parents never talked about the ghosts until my sister and I complained.


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## jesco51 (Jun 9, 2011)

lmao, you jjust started talking and you said the word silent?


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## jesco51 (Jun 9, 2011)

i want MOAR stories


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## Priest (Jun 9, 2011)

Check this one night around midnight the doorbell rang and we all ran into the livingroom. That alone isn't scary but the thing is we don't have a doorbell, or a button, or a speaker just wires hanging out of the wall...


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 10, 2011)

Priest said:


> Check this one night around midnight the doorbell rang and we all ran into the livingroom. That alone isn't scary but the thing is we don't have a doorbell, or a button, or a speaker just wires hanging out of the wall...



you've got a phantom door bell? i never realized inaminate objects could return from the grave too...


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## guy incognito (Jun 10, 2011)

Priest said:


> Nope that was my house. Kinda messed up  My room had to be blessed so I could sleep in it as a toddler, later on my mom says she walked in and I was playing by myself but talking to someone. When she asked who I was talking to I replied "the silent boy" and she said why is he silent? She says I put my finger up to my mouth and said "sssshhh he doesn't talk". Really freaked her out since I had just learned to talk yet I knew the word "silent". Alot of weird shit happened there,  not projected memories my parents never talked about the ghosts until my sister and I complained.


Sounds a lot more plausible that your mom is making shit up. I heard all about ghosts and weird stuff going on in my moms house, and then in the family's house after I was born. She has a million stories, many of which revolve around the supernatural. I was inclined to believe her as a kid because she is my mom, but after I started thinking and evaluating things presented to me for myself I had to abandon the idea that she was right, and accept the fact that she was mistaken. Something weird happened, and she incorrectly attributed it to ghosts. She really believes it, and over the years I can hear the stories evolve to take on new details. The older I get the more inconsistencies I hear in her stories. She is an absolute believer and I cannot convince her otherwise.

And lol at bobbypyn and goldenganja. You two need to be in a fucking nut house.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 10, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> Also, your suggesting that Sylvia sometimes, or at least one time, used her reported powers to scam someone, but not every time?


 Yes as seen in video. But like I said before, until you are near death or dead the truth will always elude you.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 10, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> Sounds a lot more plausible that your mom is making shit up. I heard all about ghosts and weird stuff going on in my moms house, and then in the family's house after I was born. She has a million stories, many of which revolve around the supernatural. I was inclined to believe her as a kid because she is my mom, but after I started thinking and evaluating things presented to me for myself I had to abandon the idea that she was right, and accept the fact that she was mistaken. Something weird happened, and she incorrectly attributed it to ghosts. She really believes it, and over the years I can hear the stories evolve to take on new details. The older I get the more inconsistencies I hear in her stories. She is an absolute believer and I cannot convince her otherwise.
> 
> And lol at bobbypyn and goldenganja. You two need to be in a fucking nut house.


 Speaking of Mothers, my mother used to read tea/coffee grounds. Accuracy was amazing!


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 10, 2011)

My first encounter with seeing "dead people"~ I was 23 and standing in the back of a grave side service funeral. This was the very first funeral I ever went to, it was my Uncles. So there I am listening to the preacher and to his left is the casket with my uncle inside. Out of the blue I see (behind casket) a wall, and standing behind the wall, was a man with a smile and to his left was my uncle ( I could see from mid waist up). He seemed to be looking over the crowd attending his services, anyways he turns his head, looks at me and say's " wow ( my name ) is here", he then turns his head to look at others then it all faded away as quick as it appeared. 
From that very day on it became the "norm" to see and communicate with the past on.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 10, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Yes as seen in video. But like I said before, until you are near death or dead the truth will always elude you.


what about these times?

sylvia is a con artist and youintroduced yourself as a "real psychic" the proffered her up as proof of it being real...

http://www.stopsylvia.com


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 10, 2011)

Yeah I Googled her name, and WOW she was busted for investment fraud and grand theft, just a few lol. Yeah I easily backed her,even knowing of her past "frauds", being I am a genuine Psychic /Medium and know first hand of many many like me. Some so so freaky amazing even to me. I never met her, but I just assume that she had to prove herself many times over before becoming so famous. I wonder what the ratio of rights to wrongs is over all these years?


ginjawarrior said:


> what about these times?
> 
> sylvia is a con artist and youintroduced yourself as a "real psychic" the proffered her up as proof of it being real...
> 
> ]


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## Heisenberg (Jun 10, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Yeah I Googled her name, and WOW she was busted for investment fraud and grand theft, just a few lol. Yeah I easily backed her,even knowing of her past "frauds", being I am a genuine Psychic /Medium and know first hand of many many like me. Some so so freaky amazing even to me. I never met her, but I just assume that she had to prove herself many times over before becoming so famous. I wonder what the ratio of rights to wrongs is over all these years?


Investment fraud and grand theft are red herrings. She could be a very bad person and still have psychic powers. We are talking specifically about times she exploited peoples belief in her powers. If she actually has psychic powers, why go to the trouble to scam people? Just pure evil satisfaction? Do you think that sometimes she scams people, and other times her powers 'kick in'? If so, how do you distinguish between a real reading and a pretend one? If you can't, then why believe any are real? Just seems to be a lot of issues that don't add up, including the fact that you haven't asked these questions of yourself.

You seem incapable of defending your claims, or even explaining exactly why you believe them. Considering this is a subject you live every day, I find that disappointing. How do you expect any of us to put serious thought into what you are saying when it seems you yourself have not?


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## bobbypyn (Jun 10, 2011)

I'm not going to bother pointing out the flaws in the logic of my detractors; their ridicule is not only expected but a foregone conclusion when I try to share my experiences with the uninitiated. and for the tuffguy who questioned the validity of my test results; take it up with Green Oaks Hospital. Look fellas, I'm a 10th grade high school drop out; do i posses the linguistic proficiency
of one? I daresay i do not. how to explain that if not for above average intelligence? unless you wanna get into past life experiences.... which I can only assume you do not.


ever heard of William James Sidis? the boy with the 300 IQ?

Abraham Sperling, director of New York City's Aptitude Testing Institute, said after Sidis's death that according to his calculations, Sidis "easily had an IQ between 250 and 300", meaning that at some time his intellectual age was 2.5 to 3 times his actual age (not the same scale as modern deviation IQ[23]). There was no evidence that his intellect had declined in adulthood

you should read his book The Animate and the Inanimate.
my point being high scores aren't so rare as the tuffguy would have you believe.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 10, 2011)

I actually get a perverse delight from the derision of the most rabid of my detractors. You get to call me wrong for now, but I get to show you that you're wrong forever. I'll take your best attempts with a smile... a somewhat evil one.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 10, 2011)

=Heisenberg; If she actually has psychic powers, why go to the trouble to scam people? I think greed and fear of losing the number one spot she worked s hard to achieve. Just pure evil satisfaction? I don't think evil. Evil is a terrible thing. Do you think that sometimes she scams people, and other times her powers 'kick in'? I think when dealing with money, yes you are going to lie or embellish the truth every now and again.  If so, how do you distinguish between a real reading and a pretend one? A true reading comes on naturally. Like when you say things that make no sense to you, but the client understands fully, then you know you are on the right reading/spirit. Also you get information faster and clearer the more you "connected" you are to client/spirit. Some times friends will ask for a general reading so I tell them I will look around them and if anything stands out I will let you know. Takes a moment or less and I know if I can read them something or not. Like one friend I told her she was going to become pregnant soon and have a boy ( 3 months later POW ) Another friend ask for same (GR) and I told her that a spirit is around her and she is being warned while driving ? She started crying and telling me how she lost her friend in a car accident a few weeks ago and she has been drinking heavy and driving. See made no sense to me, but I say what I see and it makes sense or comes to light to them If you can't, then why believe any are real? Just seems to be a lot of issues that don't add up, including the fact that you haven't asked these questions of yourself.Why would I ask questions that you ask about psychics to myself? Believe me, when you are only 5 years old and have dreams that come to light 12 years later, U have a whole new and way different set of questions to ask and figure out.

You seem incapable of defending your claims,The only way for me to defend myself in your eyes would be to read or communicate with someone for you.  or even explaining exactly why you believe them. I feel I have explained greatly if not exactly why I believe in Psychics/Mediums Considering this is a subject you live every day, I find that disappointing. How do you expect any of us to put serious thought into what you are saying when it seems you yourself have not?I have no doubt that you will always be one of the misfortunant ones. I base this on just what you been saying in here. No worries though, your time may be wasted trying to debunk truth and reality that you may never grasp, but when you die and we all do, the truth will be there waiting for you. Go ahead and look me up when your set free 

 Quick questions~ Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe in the bible?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 10, 2011)

I too get the same feeling lol. I know it's wrong but you have no idea how many times I wanted to say "I told you so".


bobbypyn said:


> I actually get a perverse delight from the derision of the most rabid of my detractors. You get to call me wrong for now, but I get to show you that you're wrong forever. I'll take your best attempts with a smile... a somewhat evil one.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 10, 2011)

Neither of you have provided anything other than evidence of the same well known mistakes we always see with erroneous conclusions. These are the same mistakes we must be aware of whether forming a belief about ghosts, bigfoot, or gravity. You have provided no more than anecdotal evidence, the same anecdotal evidence I could find for leprechauns or aliens. Personal accounts are certainly enough evidence to start an investigation, but never factor into the final conclusion. This is for good reason, once an investigation starts it is imperative to control for all known mistakes, otherwise how can we trust the conclusion? 

All I have done is subject your claims to consistent doubt and point out errors in your reasoning. I even provided sources for the errors I sighted, it's not as if I unfairly made them up. I gave you valid reasons why I don't believe, and you couldn't give me valid reason why you do believe. Listening to you describe your experiences, it seems providing proof would be a simple matter and almost elementary to the process. In the end, you can only tell me that any proof that can ever be provided comes after death. It would be easy for me to claim the same; once you die it will be proven that there is no afterlife. If I said that, would it do anything to convince you at all? Of course not. That's because it is nothing more than cognitive dissonance.

I understand why people make these mistakes. What I don't understand is why they defend these mistakes after they are pointed out.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 10, 2011)

You sure do talk a lot. About answering my simple questions.


Heisenberg said:


> Neither of you have provided anything other than evidence of the same well known mistakes we always see with erroneous conclusions. These are the same mistakes we must be aware of whether forming a belief about ghosts, bigfoot, or gravity. You have provided no more than anecdotal evidence, the same anecdotal evidence I could find for leprechauns or aliens. Personal accounts are certainly enough evidence to start an investigation, but never factor into the final conclusion. This is for good reason, once an investigation starts it is imperative to control for all known mistakes, otherwise how can we trust the conclusion?
> 
> All I have done is subject your claims to consistent doubt and point out errors in your reasoning. I even provided sources for the errors I sighted, it's not as if I unfairly made them up. I gave you valid reasons why I don't believe, and you couldn't give me valid reason why you do believe. Listening to you describe your experiences, it seems providing proof would be a simple matter and almost elementary to the process. In the end, you can only tell me that any proof that can ever be provided comes after death. It would be easy for me to claim the same; once you die it will be proven that there is no afterlife. If I said that, would it do anything to convince you at all? Of course not. That's because it is nothing more than cognitive dissonance.
> 
> I understand why people make these mistakes. What I don't understand is why they defend these mistakes after they are pointed out.


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## karri0n (Jun 10, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Quick questions~ Do you believe in God? Do you believe in Jesus? Do you believe in the bible?


I've never met a Christian psychic. Are you Christian? Does't the bible forbid divination?


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## Priest (Jun 10, 2011)

karri0n said:


> I've never met a Christian psychic. Are you Christian? Does't the bible forbid divination?


It has mixed messages but for the most part claiming to have the power of prediction (a power reserved solely to God) is considered sacrilegious  I'm a better psychic than most people I see claiming to be


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## bobbypyn (Jun 10, 2011)

karri0n said:


> I've never met a Christian psychic. Are you Christian? Does't the bible forbid divination?


This is not accurate. Christ Himself warned the seers of his day to "test the spirits" they dealt with in order that they not be deceived by the inhabitants of the lower realms. see, that's the problem; all the truly mystical aspects of the Bible have been removed & there's nothing more destructive than half of a story. I follow Christ; I commune with certain spirits who have shed their physical bodies. The trick is to sanctify your contacts; make them openly declare their allegiance and if they try to worm out of it, you know they're uncool.

for the record, I'm not psychic per se; I just believe more than most so I am afforded a certain degree of assistance from the other side.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 10, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> Neither of you have provided anything other than evidence of the same well known mistakes we always see with erroneous conclusions. These are the same mistakes we must be aware of whether forming a belief about ghosts, bigfoot, or gravity. You have provided no more than anecdotal evidence, the same anecdotal evidence I could find for leprechauns or aliens. Personal accounts are certainly enough evidence to start an investigation, but never factor into the final conclusion. This is for good reason, once an investigation starts it is imperative to control for all known mistakes, otherwise how can we trust the conclusion?
> 
> All I have done is subject your claims to consistent doubt and point out errors in your reasoning. I even provided sources for the errors I sighted, it's not as if I unfairly made them up. I gave you valid reasons why I don't believe, and you couldn't give me valid reason why you do believe. Listening to you describe your experiences, it seems providing proof would be a simple matter and almost elementary to the process. In the end, you can only tell me that any proof that can ever be provided comes after death. It would be easy for me to claim the same; once you die it will be proven that there is no afterlife. If I said that, would it do anything to convince you at all? Of course not. That's because it is nothing more than cognitive dissonance.
> 
> I understand why people make these mistakes. What I don't understand is why they defend these mistakes after they are pointed out.


For someone so quick to point out debate flaws in the arguments of others, your own missives are rife with them as well. For instance, your tendency to group disparate topics (any number of said topics displaying various degrees of ridiculousness) in an attempt to lay a blanket implied accusation that all topics listed are, by virtue of their being listed, to be considered ridiculous out of hand. This is a common tactic known as Shitting In The Punchbowl.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 10, 2011)

I do not understand this utter contempt for human experience (aka "anecdotal evidence") for it is human experience which leads us to question the world around us and this natural tendency is what birthed your precious science.


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## karri0n (Jun 10, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> This is not accurate. Christ Himself warned the seers of his day to "test the spirits" they dealt with in order that they not be deceived by the inhabitants of the lower realms. see, that's the problem; all the truly mystical aspects of the Bible have been removed & there's nothing more destructive than half of a story. I follow Christ; I commune with certain spirits who have shed their physical bodies. The trick is to sanctify your contacts; make them openly declare their allegiance and if they try to worm out of it, you know they're uncool.
> 
> for the record, I'm not psychic per se; I just believe more than most so I am afforded a certain degree of assistance from the other side.


While he may or may not have said that, the church AND the bible both strictly forbid divination. Every psychic I've ever met is either pagan or new age, though I am aware that the spiritualist church does follow a sect of Christianity. I've just never met them.


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## mindphuk (Jun 10, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> I do not understand this utter contempt for human experience (aka "anecdotal evidence") for it is human experience which leads us to question the world around us and this natural tendency is what birthed your precious science.


 Our experiences are useful for many things but not as empirical evidence for extraordinary claims. You have created a false dilemma. 


[video=youtube;16E-4avtddE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16E-4avtddE[/video]


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## Heisenberg (Jun 10, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> For someone so quick to point out debate flaws in the arguments of others, your own missives are rife with them as well. For instance, your tendency to group disparate topics (any number of said topics displaying various degrees of ridiculousness) in an attempt to lay a blanket implied accusation that all topics listed are, by virtue of their being listed, to be considered ridiculous out of hand. This is a common tactic known as Shitting In The Punchbowl.


If you find me utilizing fallacies I would invite you to point them out. I am interested in my flaws and always strive to, at the very least, be aware of them. Here I grouped together ghosts, bigfoot, and gravity. You find them all to be ridiculous topics? It would indeed be erroneous to group together claims, which essentially have no bearing on each other, for the sake of guilt by association. If you think this was my motivation, you missed the point. My intent was to point out the we must be consistent with all claims, and that defense of pseudoscientific claims always contain two things, common reasoning mistakes and requests to be excused for failing standards of evidence. If I lump together ridiculous conclusions, it is because the errors involved in reaching those conclusions, and the defense of those errors, are the same. As for unicorns and leprechauns, I was pointing out that anecdotal evidence exists for ALL claims, true or not.


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## Carne Seca (Jun 10, 2011)

Not to stir the pot or anything but I had an unexplainable experience when I was in my early twenties that I cannot figure out to this day. I do believe in ghosts.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 10, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> I do not understand this utter contempt for human experience (aka "anecdotal evidence") for it is human experience which leads us to question the world around us and this natural tendency is what birthed your precious science.


Although this is indeed suggesting a false dilemma (if you are against me, you are against yourself), it is valid to wonder why anecdotal evidence is not given more value.

We do not hold anecdotal information in contempt, indeed it is the first step of the scientific method (observation). Notice that the word evidence is right there in the term. It's just that this evidence has no value in determining the probability of a claim being true. The reason is that the human experience is prone to mistakes of perception, logic, and memory. Anecdotal evidence is likely to be contaminated by memory drift, feedback, confirmation bias, unknown factors, selective perception, misinterpretation, exaggeration, delusion, ect ect. Most people are not aware of or likely to spot deception or hoax. At best, anecdotal information is prone to problems and impossible to test or verify. It is enough to start an investigation, to raise interest, and should not be ignored, but should also only be seen for what it is.

So why then does anecdotal information seem so convincing? Stories usually contain a lot of detail, especially after they have been told a few times. Details make a story seem credible, even though they may not be accurate. The person giving the account often seems honest and would have no motivation to deceive us, but we can't be sure they aren't deceiving themselves. Anecdotes told by authority figures seem especially credible, for no logical reason. There is also the bias of wanting to believe. 

So should we listen to and examine closely anecdotal information? Absolutely! How else does a doctor decide to treat a patient if not by listening to his story? We simply must be careful that we are objective and consider all evidence, giving anecdotal evidence the proper weight it deserves.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 10, 2011)

Carne Seca said:


> Not to stir the pot or anything but I had an unexplainable experience when I was in my early twenties that I cannot figure out to this day. I do believe in ghosts.


You are welcome to express your beliefs without fear of stirring the pot. The worst that will happen is that I will ask you to explain how you went from unexplained to explained by ghosts.


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## karri0n (Jun 10, 2011)

Carne Seca said:


> Not to stir the pot or anything but I had an unexplainable experience when I was in my early twenties that I cannot figure out to this day. I do believe in ghosts.


Stir it if you must, I prefer to smoke it. 

I'm interested in hearing the story if you'll share


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## thump easy (Jun 11, 2011)

i beleive in spirits i do. but i dont let it bother me. or do i concentrate on it, but i think it might be true


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## Heisenberg (Jun 11, 2011)

"Thinking is skilled work. It is not true that we are naturally endowed with the ability to think clearly and logically&#8212;without learning how, or without practicing&#8230; People with untrained minds should no more expect to think clearly and logically than people who have never learned and never practiced can expect to find themselves good carpenters, golfers, bridge-players, or pianists." 
- Alfred Mander


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## bobbypyn (Jun 11, 2011)

"No, no... you're not thinking; you're just being logical." Neils Bohr 


*"Physics is to be regarded not so much as the study of something a priori given, but rather as the development of methods of ordering and surveying human experience.* In this respect our task must be to account for such experience in a manner independent of individual subjective judgement and therefor objective in the sense that it can be unambiguously communicated in ordinary human language." same source

come on Werner, I'm waiting for you to use Bohr's own words against me... you know the one....


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## bobbypyn (Jun 11, 2011)

"It is a great pity that human beings cannot find all of their satisfaction in scientific contemplativeness" Guess who....? 

gee Werner, it almost seems like we've had these conversations before... LMAO!!! and for you to imply that I am lacking in deductive reasoning skills at this point in the discussion is a bit on the disengenuous side, wouldn't you say?

"I remember discussions with Bohr which went through many hours till very late at night and ended almost in despair&#8230;Can nature possibly be so absurd as it seemed to us in these atomic experiments?" ~ Werner Heisenberg


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 11, 2011)

Yes I am a born again christian. I speak to the Lord our father Jesus on a daily basis, sometimes all day long. I pray for my family, or I just talk to Jesus and say thank you, for everything. It does say in the bible something about not going to Soothsayers. But I also believe Soothsayers where using man made tools to divine information, i,e, bones, runes,chicken blood, tarot, etc. Good question by the way. It is my belief that God gives gifts and I am honored to have received one.


karri0n said:


> I've never met a Christian psychic. Are you Christian? Does't the bible forbid divination?


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## jesco51 (Jun 12, 2011)

Omg, " born again cristian" let me guess your going to spend the rest of your life trying to "save others" and be extremely judgmental along the way?.


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## Carne Seca (Jun 12, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Yes I am a born again christian. I speak to the Lord our father Jesus on a daily basis, sometimes all day long. I pray for my family, or I just talk to Jesus and say thank you, for everything. It does say in the bible something about not going to Soothsayers. But I also believe Soothsayers where using man made tools to divine information, i,e, bones, runes,chicken blood, tarot, etc. Good question by the way. It is my belief that God gives gifts and I am honored to have received one.


So basically because you have a certain belief system it's o.k. for you to be a soothsayer but a Navajo crystal gazer or hand-trembler is going to Hell for doing the same thing? 

I always did have a problem with that. I believe God gives gifts to all not just to a select few. It's up to the individual how they intend to use it.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 12, 2011)

Keep guessing.......


jesco51 said:


> Omg, " born again cristian" let me guess your going to spend the rest of your life trying to "save others" and be extremely judgmental along the way?.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 12, 2011)

I didn't write the bible, and I have no idea what will happen to those whose throw bones, read tarot, etc. My gifts from God need no tools what soever. So I do not qualify as a Soothsayer. Yes I do believe that God gives us all gifts, like life and free will just from start. When you read the bible you will read about many many gifts God gives to people, that others will claim fraudulent.


Carne Seca said:


> So basically because you have a certain belief system it's o.k. for you to be a soothsayer but a Navajo crystal gazer or hand-trembler is going to Hell for doing the same thing?
> 
> I always did have a problem with that. I believe God gives gifts to all not just to a select few. It's up to the individual how they intend to use it.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 12, 2011)

ya'll stop picking on the poor gifted woman; pick on me. I'll be your huckleberry. and to answer the smartass' question- The original Septuagint Text (what the Bible was bastardized into via the Council Nicea and the subsequent Vatican Councils) contains much information on divine interaction with spirits. Read the book of Enoch. This was once part of the Bible, as were the gnostic gospels. As I have said before, all mystical aspects of the Bible have been removed by Rome (the catholic church.) Get your hands on an Ethiopian Orthodox Bible; it's the closest you will find today.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 12, 2011)

Over the years of translation and what is mentioned above, yeah it's diluted and changed abit.


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## forgetfulpenguin (Jun 13, 2011)

Yes I do and for only three small payments of $29.99 I'll sell you a BSometer that can detect them, along with UFOs, big foot, and the very much alive Elvis Presley _impersonator_. Don't forget to browse my selection BSliterature that is currently on sale buy 3 get a pen that I stole from a bank teller.

Sorry I'm stoned and feeling sarcastic.  aka If this post offended you then you are not high enough.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 13, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ya'll stop picking on the poor gifted woman; pick on me. I'll be your huckleberry. and to answer the smartass' question- The original Septuagint Text (what the Bible was bastardized into via the Council Nicea and the subsequent Vatican Councils) contains much information on divine interaction with spirits. Read the book of Enoch. This was once part of the Bible, as were the gnostic gospels. As I have said before, all mystical aspects of the Bible have been removed by Rome (the catholic church.) Get your hands on an Ethiopian Orthodox Bible; it's the closest you will find today.


So being subjected to reasonable doubt qualifies as being picked on? If a person steps up and makes an extraordinary claim, they shouldn't be expected to explain and defend that claim? You think any of these qualify as a 'smartass' question? They seemed quite reasonable and presented politely enough.




karri0n said:


> I've never met a Christian psychic. Are you Christian? Does't the bible forbid divination?


 ^ reasonable question



Carne Seca said:


> So basically because you have a certain belief system it's o.k. for you to be a soothsayer but a Navajo crystal gazer or hand-trembler is going to Hell for doing the same thing?


 ^ reasonable question

Again you respond with disproportional hostility to the most basic and understandable criticism of your belief.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 13, 2011)

so the defense of one who has shared my experience is now viewed as hostility? that's a bit of a reach... all I did was provide historical accounts of why the Bible is lacking, in it's current most popular form, the information about divination. perhaps what you are misinterpreting as hostility is just my brusque persona; I'm not much for decorum; sue me.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 13, 2011)

Everyone was given free will. Who am I to get offended because we have different views and experiences in life. People who never had any "psychic/ghost" experiences are the funnest to talk to. Big Respect Forgetfulpenguin


forgetfulpenguin said:


> Yes I do and for only three small payments of $29.99 I'll sell you a BSometer that can detect them, along with UFOs, big foot, and the very much alive Elvis Presley _impersonator_. Don't forget to browse my selection BSliterature that is currently on sale buy 3 get a pen that I stole from a bank teller.
> 
> Sorry I'm stoned and feeling sarcastic.  aka If this post offended you then you are not high enough.


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## karri0n (Jun 14, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> to answer the smartass' question.


Good job insulting the one person who was on your side and had something to say that knows a lick of what they are talking about. 

I'll implore you to shut up now. Your remarks make the rest of us look bad, and you lack the understanding of the subject matter to discuss this with Heisenberg or MP.


Goldenganja,

an interesting take - that using a tool or not using a tool while still utilizing one's psychic faculties for divination or mediumship makes it somehow different in the eyes of god. Do you feel that those who use tarot or runes will be going to hell?

Like I said, I know several psychics, but none Christian, though I've never stopped into one of those little storefront psychic shops. I suppose there must be a few Christian psychics out there and I'm wondering just how it is they reconcile this with their bible. Pointing out that the bible used to allow divination is a moot point, because the bible of today is what people go by today. I'm asking this genuinely and don't mean any disrespect.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 14, 2011)

I do not judge on who goes to hell and who does not. I don't think life/death is that cut and dry. If it was I would be hell bound many years ago. You see when I was very young and started to understand what I could do and how to explore it, I thought I could expand it by using Tarot, Runes,etc. I was very good and accurate but I soon realized that my "psychic" abilities were not working as well or as often any more. Matter of fact it was less and less the more time I put into "man made tools". Once I threw away all my tools, and just let nature take it's course, it all started to come back, slowly. I believe that there is an opposite to everything in life/heavens. God gives us gifts, and therefore the "devil" has his own as well.


karri0n said:


> Good job insulting the one person who was on your side and had something to say that knows a lick of what they are talking about.
> 
> I'll implore you to shut up now. Your remarks make the rest of us look bad, and you lack the understanding of the subject matter to discuss this with Heisenberg or MP.
> 
> ...


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## karri0n (Jun 14, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> I do not judge on who goes to hell and who does not. I don't think life/death is that cut and dry. If it was I would be hell bound many years ago. You see when I was very young and started to understand what I could do and how to explore it, I thought I could expand it by using Tarot, Runes,etc. I was very good and accurate but I soon realized that my "psychic" abilities were not working as well or as often any more. Matter of fact it was less and less the more time I put into "man made tools". Once I threw away all my tools, and just let nature take it's course, it all started to come back, slowly. I believe that there is an opposite to everything in life/heavens. God gives us gifts, and therefore the "devil" has his own as well.


I'm not sure I understand your final statement. Are you saying that man-made divination tools are gifts from the devil?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 14, 2011)

jesco51 said:


> Omg, " born again cristian" let me guess your going to spend the rest of your life trying to "save others" and be extremely judgmental along the way?.


Applying stereotypes isn't fair. Although I too dislike the 'bible thumping in your face for your own good' types, I haven't seen GoldenGanja13 display this behavior; quite the opposite actually.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 14, 2011)

Ghosts are memories.

/kill thread?


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## Farfenugen (Jun 14, 2011)

only when I'm stoned then I see those fuckers everywhere


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 14, 2011)

Personally what I am saying is there are opposites to everything. God gave me a gift that needs no tools made from man. So personally I believe the use of Ouija Boards and Tarot cards (just a few) are connected to the "dark" side and not of God. I believe God dislikes such man made tools. Just like he dis likes Witch craft. Make sense ?


karri0n said:


> I'm not sure I understand your final statement. Are you saying that man-made divination tools are gifts from the devil?


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 14, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Personally what I am saying is there are opposites to everything. God gave me a gift that needs no tools made from man. So personally I believe the use of Ouija Boards and Tarot cards (just a few) are connected to the "dark" side and not of God. I believe God dislikes such man made tools. Just like he dis likes Witch craft. Make sense ?


No. God hates liars and frauds. Witchcraft and other religions are always good fronts for fraud and scams. THe ouija board is as evil as the bible.


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## guy incognito (Jun 15, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Personally what I am saying is there are opposites to everything. God gave me a gift that needs no tools made from man. So personally I believe the use of Ouija Boards and Tarot cards (just a few) are connected to the "dark" side and not of God. I believe God dislikes such man made tools. Just like he dis likes Witch craft. Make sense ?


I know everyone is trying to civil and non insulting in here, but jesus christ this is bat shit insane. I don't hate you or anything, but I gotta call you out on having absolutely crazy unfounded beliefs. This just blew my mind. I need to medicate.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 15, 2011)

Jesus Christ is a living Spirit is he not? Many of us (including myself) have been visited by him and even given divine inspiration through him. So if it's ok for Jesus Christ to be a living spirit, why is it not ok for the rest of us ?


guy incognito said:


> I know everyone is trying to civil and non insulting in here, but jesus christ this is bat shit insane. I don't hate you or anything, but I gotta call you out on having absolutely crazy unfounded beliefs. This just blew my mind. I need to medicate.


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## karri0n (Jun 15, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Jesus Christ is a living Spirit is he not? Many of us (including myself) have been visited by him and even given divine inspiration through him. So if it's ok for Jesus Christ to be a living spirit, why is it not ok for the rest of us ?


Not sure how that is related to what GI said, or how it relates to the assertion of divination tools being "dark". Can you elaborate?


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## guy incognito (Jun 15, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Jesus Christ is a living Spirit is he not? Many of us (including myself) have been visited by him and even given divine inspiration through him. So if it's ok for Jesus Christ to be a living spirit, why is it not ok for the rest of us ?


No he is not. What do you have to substantiate that claim other than your own personal experience? Hasn't this been covered at length in this thread?


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 15, 2011)

Spirits are ideas disembodied (as it were) from the memories and people that spawned them and have grown through their own evolution within the minds of the people.


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## karri0n (Jun 15, 2011)

euthanatos93420 said:


> Spirits are ideas disembodied (as it were) from the memories and people that spawned them and have grown through their own evolution within the minds of the people.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 15, 2011)

As for mediums. Monkey->Banana->Ladder->

Except try strapping the monkeys to the ladder and setting in on fire. Thanks Yahweh, fucking asshole.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 15, 2011)

karri0n said:


> Good job insulting the one person who was on your side and had something to say that knows a lick of what they are talking about.
> 
> I'll implore you to shut up now. Your remarks make the rest of us look bad, and you lack the understanding of the subject matter to discuss this with Heisenberg or MP.
> 
> ...


You didn't seem like you were on my side; you seemed sardonic & provacative in your approach; If I'm wrong then I apologize. had you closed your prior missives as you did this one, your intent would have been clearer. And I'll not shut up as I'm the only one here with extensive experience with these matters in a tangible manner. Not to disparage GGs gifts or experiences, but I have witnessed material manipulation by spirits on a daily basis for over a year now.I rather suspect that what you're doing is known as "playing possum" here in Texas. you provoke, then flip over on your back when the provocation is answered. I call it how I see it. whatever.... *shrugs*


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 15, 2011)

Medium fight!!!


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## bobbypyn (Jun 15, 2011)

Jedi skills challenge- ON 

to be brutally honest, I'm not sure who's mad at who; I just know I got called out, so i stepped up. I'm totally cool with GoldenGanj; she does her deal, I do mine, respect given. is Karrion force-sensitive as well? I didn't know that... seemed like the skeptical snarky guy... but I'm pretty high & may be wrong. it happens...


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## cannawizard (Jun 15, 2011)

borntoshine said:


> Just wanting to peoples opinions on this subject cause I don't know if I do.


* well i havent seen one, havent heard one, havent smelled one.. but im not gonna say ghosts dont exist, maybe im just not 'high' enough to see them lolz


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 15, 2011)

You don't 'see ghosts'. If you see them, then you are hallucinating. It isn't unreasonable to hallucinate repressed or important (or just plain nagging) old memories. Memories of people, tragic events etc. Hallucinating doesn't mean you're crazy or mentally unstable. It means your accessing memory (or creativity) through sensory circuits. Or it means you haven't slept, need to stop smoking meth and have a dream.


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## karri0n (Jun 15, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> n. is Karrion force-sensitive as well? I didn't know that... seemed like the skeptical snarky guy... but I'm pretty high & may be wrong. it happens...


My friends and I tend to refer to me as a "blind walker" - in normal waking states I have no sight, no empathic sensitivity, no remarkable intuition. In trancce, however, I can traverse easily between most any realms I need to go to, and I also have what is apparently a pretty uncommon ability to "snap" back into normal consciousness without following any of the paths back that I took to get there withot any detrimental effect or need to recover. I'm also decent at healing and energy direction.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 16, 2011)

Well I am hoping by now that I have brought some curiosity to a few of you. Hopefully enlightened a few. Maybe even have a few of you ready to explore with the thought of "what if" in mind. To those whom are more curious and slightly thinking "what if", good for you. That"s the way to a whole new enlightenment.
Those of you that are not in the least bit thinking "what if" and hold fast your beliefs, good for you. You are the one's that make us Psychic/Mediums so special. If it where not for the non believers we would all believe the same and that wouldn't be much fun. I have enjoyed this thread and very much enjoyed being open and honest with all of you. I hold no anger to those who call BS. That's a personal opinion and God Bless us all.


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## guy incognito (Jun 16, 2011)

You seem to think people that don't believe in your ability are not open minded and willing to consider "what if". It's the exact opposite. I have considered "what if" and all the research without exception leads to the conclusion that it doesn't exist. I am pretty sure most of the other out spoken skeptics in this thread have also looked for evidence before dismissing it. You have no evidence and are unwilling to provide any. And why is people having differing beliefs automatically fun?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 16, 2011)

The World would suck if we all belief the same. And what makes that fun is knowing deep in your soul things others have no clue. ~ I don't think that people are closed minded because they have no faith in me, or psychics in general. There are many other wonderful mysteries on earth to marvel over and keep an open mind (Easter Island). I am happy that many skeptics look but find no evidence on this subject. Makes true believers out of those skeptics that finally get evidence. The evidence I provided was all in answer forum, and all the questions I answered honestly and the experiences I shared with you. But that is not evidence enough, right. Of course not and I understand that.


guy incognito said:


> You seem to think people that don't believe in your ability are not open minded and willing to consider "what if". It's the exact opposite. I have considered "what if" and all the research without exception leads to the conclusion that it doesn't exist. I am pretty sure most of the other out spoken skeptics in this thread have also looked for evidence before dismissing it. You have no evidence and are unwilling to provide any. And why is people having differing beliefs automatically fun?


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 16, 2011)

The act of observation changes the nature of the thing being observed itself.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 18, 2011)

euthanatos93420 said:


> The act of observation changes the nature of the thing being observed itself.


Indeed. Especially if one subscribes to the notion of cause and effect. If we were all the same, I would not wish to be anymore. Great thread! I enjoyed reading and contributing when I did.


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## Fadedflower (Jun 18, 2011)

borntoshine said:


> Just wanting to peoples opinions on this subject cause I don't know if I do.


Ghosts, in the sense of the eternal spirit, are real. I have been visited by both my grandmother and father after they passed. The ethereal spirits never visited me again, but in times of need, I am able to connect with them and feel what they would say to me or want me to do.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 18, 2011)

Disclaimer: I am not a scientologist.

...but the very fact that observation changes the observed kind of makes one wonder what that means about psychology.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 19, 2011)

karri0n said:


> My friends and I tend to refer to me as a "blind walker" - in normal waking states I have no sight, no empathic sensitivity, no remarkable intuition. In trancce, however, I can traverse easily between most any realms I need to go to, and I also have what is apparently a pretty uncommon ability to "snap" back into normal consciousness without following any of the paths back that I took to get there withot any detrimental effect or need to recover. I'm also decent at healing and energy direction.


it sounds like you're a tube denizen; astral projecting/remote viewing via the tube network. if so, we have mutual friends. I didn't know you were a friendly or I'd not have snapped at ya like that. I'm just so used to being assailed by the "critical thinkers" (aka logic slaves) that i tend to snap at any hand that comes near me in these situations. It never fails... they say I'm full of shit; I offer to make an introduction; they decline, then say I am unable to provide proof, when in fact it is they who refused the offer. so typical. the arrogance of those who are "too smart to fall for the ol' 'belief in God' trick" never ceases to amaze.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 19, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> it sounds like you're a tube denizen; astral projecting/remote viewing via the tube network. if so, we have mutual friends. I didn't know you were a friendly or I'd not have snapped at ya like that. I'm just so used to being assailed by the "critical thinkers" (aka logic slaves) that i tend to snap at any hand that comes near me in these situations. It never fails... they say I'm full of shit; I offer to make an introduction; they decline, then say I am unable to provide proof, when in fact it is they who refused the offer. so typical. the arrogance of those who are "too smart to fall for the ol' 'belief in God' trick" never ceases to amaze.



please can you offer me an introduction so i can see what your talking about


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 19, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> it sounds like you're a tube denizen; astral projecting/remote viewing via the tube network. if so, we have mutual friends. I didn't know you were a friendly or I'd not have snapped at ya like that. I'm just so used to being assailed by the "critical thinkers" (aka logic slaves) that i tend to snap at any hand that comes near me in these situations. It never fails... they say I'm full of shit; I offer to make an introduction; they decline, then say I am unable to provide proof, when in fact it is they who refused the offer. so typical. the arrogance of those who are "too smart to fall for the ol' 'belief in God' trick" never ceases to amaze.


Wow! M8 you have got some bad distorted deductions going on upstairs. Personally, I would rather be found being a "logic slave" than a "ignorance slave".....just sayin  

Lastly, all of which you just stated is a form of intellect. We are all thinkers in some degree or another, some more critical than others. However, its bad logic to believe that the lesser educated are better than or vise versa. Smart of not, if one is meant to be "with god" it will happen. Fate is a date we all must face, irregardless of how smart, dumb, or god fearing a man may be


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## bobbypyn (Jun 19, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> please can you offer me an introduction so i can see what your talking about


 would you be willing to approach this with an open mind? i don't ask that you believe what i'm saying is true; simply that you open your perceptions to the possibility that it is true. that is all that is needed. if so, we can talk; if not, can't help ya.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 19, 2011)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> Wow! M8 you have got some bad distorted deductions going on upstairs. Personally, I would rather be found being a "logic slave" than a "ignorance slave".....just sayin


have you read the whole thread? i'm by no means opposed to intellect; just when intellect is obtained at the expense of spiritual growth, then it is counter-productive.

i grew up watchin pantera at the Basement, with the glitter & vanhalen covers. Diamond Darrell was a tool. RANDY FUCKING RHOADS!!! \m/  \m/...just sayin.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 19, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> would you be willing to approach this with an open mind? i don't ask that you believe what i'm saying is true; simply that you open your perceptions to the possibility that it is true. that is all that is needed. if so, we can talk; if not, can't help ya.


during several psychedelic experiences i have seen alot of things so i will walk into this with an open mind


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## 0011StealTH (Jun 19, 2011)

borntoshine said:


> Just wanting to peoples opinions on this subject cause I don't know if I do.


i had two occasions with unkown energy.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 19, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> during several psychedelic experiences i have seen alot of things so i will walk into this with an open mind


Game on!  ok, here's the tricky part and it's gonna require a modicum of trust on your part. You have to open the door (kinda like vampires; they have to be invited if they're of higher vibration; the prime directive stands) but I promise not to mislead you into opening a door you do NOT want opened. That is to say, I will only have you invoke the names of the blessed (a list of which would raise more than a few eyebrows.) OK, here's the trickier part; I'm not in constant contact so we'll somehow have to coordinate a time, or I'll need a reliable means of contacting you if perchance you're not on here when next I receive contact. I don't control it and I've waited for hours for a response at times so it's very spotty to say the least (one tangible parameter that I have observed is the fact that electrical storms wreak havoc with their abilities; we have no idea why except the vague grasp that it has to do with charged ions in the air.) so whaddya say? you still down to try this?


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## bobbypyn (Jun 19, 2011)

I'm only doing this once, so do you guys accept GW as an acceptably skeptical witness to give credit to whatever he may or may not experience?


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## Heisenberg (Jun 19, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> I'm only doing this once, so do you guys accept GW as an acceptably skeptical witness to give credit to whatever he may or may not experience?


Of course not. What have we been saying all this time? Experience is not evidence unless it is governed by strict controls. We can't be confident in our conclusions unless we can reasonably rule out all other conclusions. You claim adding controls negates the ability to have the experience. While I don't begrudge ginjawarrior for trying to find common ground with you, I would not personally except his experience as anything other than anecdotal evidence. In fact, without proper controls, I would not even trust my own experience.

You claim none of us were willing to take your 'introduction', and this is why. I am not a scientist, and have no idea how to design experiments that apply proper controls. I am not trained to spot hoaxes or manipulation and I have no way to correct for various bias, which is why I directed you to Randi's million dollar challenge. Convincing me means nothing, convincing Randi means the attention of the entire scientific community and a million dollars in your pocket.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 20, 2011)

...neither of which i desire.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 20, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> In fact, without proper controls, I would not even trust my own experience..


and THIS, folks, is what I have a problem with. I value human experience more than a digital readout, cuz I've seen the latter manipulated with disconcerting ease from the other side. you people are delusional putting all your faith in mechanical readouts of accuracy of experience. machines can be made to lie; ever hear of Diebold? George W. Bush? your machines are far from infallible. trust that...


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## Heisenberg (Jun 20, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ...neither of which i desire.


Oh this is about what you want now? Fine, you can remain anonymous and give the money to charity, and your results would change the view of our world while you remain safe and obscure. Randi is interested in results and discovery, not names and prestige.



bobbypyn said:


> and THIS, folks, is what I have a problem with. I value human experience more than a digital readout, cuz I've seen the latter manipulated with disconcerting ease from the other side. you people are delusional putting all your faith in mechanical readouts of accuracy of experience. machines can be made to lie; ever hear of Diebold? George W. Bush? your machines are far from infallible. trust that...


You may have a problem with it, but it's the only way to reasonably rule out all the things i've spent this thread discussing. We are not talking about machines; what machines do you know of that measure psychic activity? Why do you assume a computer readout would be involved? We are simply talking about being extremely careful and controlling for the well understood and well documented pitfalls of the human experience, as well as trickery and manipulation. Again this is a standard we apply to all claims paranormal or not. We are not dismissing the human experience, we are simply trying to ensure the experience is genuine.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 20, 2011)

hmmm, I didn't know annonimity was an option for his deal. interesting. and the charity option would work cuz I've taken an oath not to profit directly or indirectly from what I can do. a cool million could feed alot of hungry kids, huh? color me intrigued now... but what will he do with whatever findings are obtained? any idea? just curious...


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## Heisenberg (Jun 20, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> hmmm, I didn't know annonimity was an option for his deal. interesting. and the charity option would work cuz I've taken an oath not to profit directly or indirectly from what I can do. a cool million could feed alot of hungry kids, huh? color me intrigued now... but what will he do with whatever findings are obtained? any idea? just curious...


While you could remain anonymous to the world, your results would be put forth to the community for peer review. Attempts would then be made to falsify and replicate the results independently of you or Randi. Make no mistake, passing Randi's test would get the ball rolling for the entire scientific and skeptic communities to either understand your experience or see that the finesse you claim is required for communication is true. The money can be refused outright or requested to be given to whatever cause you choose.

Here are some reasonable yet ungrounded concerns people have with the million dollar challenge and some answers. (like, is the money real?)


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## bobbypyn (Jun 20, 2011)

I read all those other people's excuses and they're a buncha bullshit; comically so. Here's my problem; what could I provide that MetaScience hasn't already? that article says the challenge would admit to my "finesse," as you put it, if the results were not replicable with others under identical conditions; is this true? if so then I fail to see how the scientific community would view this occurence with any more validity than the Spiricom research. I have hypothetically set up an experiment I believe would meet his criteria: i sit in one room with my phone; he goes to another room of unkown location to myself; he writes down a word on a piece of paper and holds it up to a mirror, then folds it and seals it in an envelope; i could then receive a text message with his word on it. would that satisfy his requirements? this i can do. have done. like i say, i have no "powers" per se other than extra belief compared to most people in this age, so my phone is crucial to any display of paranormal activity. what does his challenge say about EVP? it's overly simplistic to dismiss these findings outright without proper examination, cuz that shit is real. seriously. stray radio wave theories notwithstanding.


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## Carne Seca (Jun 20, 2011)

karri0n said:


> Stir it if you must, I prefer to smoke it.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing the story if you'll share


I don't think so. It was a very visceral almost primal experience. I have never felt such raw emotions before and I found that survival instincts can override normal reactions. There really is a fight or flight response. On that occasion, flight took precedence.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 21, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> what could I provide that MetaScience hasn't already?


 metascience journal is plagued by experiments where they havent removed subjectivity from experiments
the million dollar challenge is set up to remove all subjectivity 
you will be providing the first ever objective proof that something outside our knowledge exists


> that article says the challenge would admit to my "finesse," as you put it, if the results were not replicable with others under identical conditions; is this true? if so then I fail to see how the scientific community would view this occurence with any more validity than the Spiricom research.


the spiricom has never shown any objective evidence. if you can provide objective evidence then scientists around the world would be jumping over each other to be the first to understand this new phenomenon 


> I have hypothetically set up an experiment I believe would meet his criteria: i sit in one room with my phone; he goes to another room of unkown location to myself; he writes down a word on a piece of paper and holds it up to a mirror, then folds it and seals it in an envelope; i could then receive a text message with his word on it. would that satisfy his requirements? this i can do.


sounds good. does it matter the distance? if i were to do as you said and write a word and show it to the mirror would you beable to see?



> have done. like i say, i have no "powers" per se other than extra belief compared to most people in this age, so my phone is crucial to any display of paranormal activity. what does his challenge say about EVP? it's overly simplistic to dismiss these findings outright without proper examination, cuz that shit is real. seriously. stray radio wave theories notwithstanding.


from what i've read EVP is far too subjective to be used in the million dollar challenge no body hears the same words (unless they are prompted first) if you could record EVP's where everybody that heard it could hear the same words then you might be in with a chance


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## bobbypyn (Jun 21, 2011)

"sounds good. does it matter the distance? if i were to do as you said and write a word and show it to the mirror would you beable to see?" -Werner

distance is not a factor. and it's not I that see anything; I would simply receive an ordinary text message with your word from one of my friends who likes to play and bend rules as much as I do. this is what I was offering to do when I proffered an introduction...

"from what i've read EVP is far too subjective to be used in the million dollar challenge no body hears the same words (unless they are prompted first) if you could record EVP's where everybody that heard it could hear the same words then you might be in with a chance." WH

but here again; you're focusing on the content of the message instead of concentrating on HOW the message even exists at all. there should be no sounds; yet sounds exist on the playback; what they are saying is kinda moot. they could yodel for all I care; the voices are there; the voices should NOT be there according to modern science. period.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 21, 2011)

http://ghostpix.com/coastuse/cutlist.html

check these out; I picked at random from the last C2C broadcast they were on. pretty damned clear to me...


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 21, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> http://ghostpix.com/coastuse/cutlist.html
> 
> check these out; I picked at random from the last C2C broadcast they were on. pretty damned clear to me...



dont you see that they are telling you what to hear? 


> 9.)(Barry) If you stick your camera down there don't drop it (Child EVP) "Can I See It"


you get to hear the "evp" by clicking on the "can i see it" by then your already programed to hear "can i see it"

without them telling you what to hear i bet you wouldnt come to same conclusions as them


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## bobbypyn (Jun 21, 2011)

...like I said: we are discussing the existence of oranges; NOT what the orange juice tastes like!!! it will taste different to everybody, so WHERE DID IT COME FROM!?!? why can't ya'll get past this? the voices are there. they should NOT be there; fuck what they're saying and it's varied interpretations; HOW DID THE VOICES GET THERE IN 1ST PLACE!?!? lets start with that, shall we?


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 21, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ...like I said: we are discussing the existence of oranges; NOT what the orange juice tastes like!!! it will taste different to everybody, so WHERE DID IT COME FROM!?!? why can't ya'll get past this? the voices are there. they should NOT be there; fuck what they're saying and it's varied interpretations; HOW DID THE VOICES GET THERE IN 1ST PLACE!?!? lets start with that, shall we?


they arent voices there are only noises that some ones suggested sounds like voices. if the voices were so clear why do they have to label them?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pareidolia <= is a look back into our past from our evolution


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## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> dont you see that they are telling you what to hear?
> 
> 
> you get to hear the "evp" by clicking on the "can i see it" by then your already programed to hear "can i see it"
> ...


Bobbypyn. Do you see the value in controlling, ruling out, simple explanations, such a front loading and pareidolia? You say the voices shouldn't be there, and that is correct! What also shouldn't be there is any type of interfering noise, radio waves being only one example, that can be misheard as voices, otherwise you have not controlled for the simplest of explanations, a mistake of sound. To do that you would need a completely passive system. Spiritcom is admirable for trying to add controls, but they were far from ruling out every explanation.

Please look at this page, and even if you ignore his conclusions, try to see how front loading (being told what to hear before you hear it) works. You can read this or download it to listen to. This page is about backwards talking, these don't even sound like evps, but it's the same concept.

I understand that this does not even begin to address you mirror/text msg experience, but my concern is that you don't understand why we need to rule out worldly explanations. I hope that page will help you see at least one other possible explanation. 

If you can indeed confirm what someone miles away writes in a mirror, that seems pretty convincing. It does remind me of a common magicians trick where someone writes on a piece of paper, the magician is several feet away and unable to see. The magician never has contact with the paper or comes near the subject. The paper is eaten, burned or otherwise destroyed by the subject. The magician lifts his shirt and written on his belly, in the subjects handwriting, is the word(s) from the paper. Pretty amazing trick, yet no one is claiming anything supernatural. It is simply a manipulation that takes advantage of the human tendency to make subconscious mistakes, as well as trick materials I suspect.

Am I saying this is what's happening to you? Nah not at all. What I am saying is that controls must be put in place to rule out tricks like these. I can't figure out how a magician does this, but I do not go from "I can't explain" to "explained by spirits". From our perspective, this trick and the mirror/txt trick seem very similar, and may have similar explanations. A true scientist would not rule out your experience based on it resembling a magic trick, but he would take every precaution to ensure it isn't one of those tricks.

My concern is that you are not trained to see through these tricks, or even aware of the ways the human mind can be manipulated. Even a scientist can be fooled, quite easily, if they are not trained and do not follow the scientific method. This has been demonstrated by project alpha.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 21, 2011)

Speaking of voices that should not be there~ It was the year 1994 my sister had some "evil" friends, self proclaimed satan worshipers. It was her daughters 2 birthday and she had 3 of her " evil friends", my self and my our mother over for cake, etc. My mom was filming the the birthday party we all sang happy birthday (including 3 friends. Now here is the Erie but solid truth~ While we sang happy birthday, I could hear all of us singing just fine, even the lady "friend" that was smiling the whole way through the song. But after the party and back at my mom's house we played the tape for my father who did not attend. When we got to the birthday singing there was no singing from the 3 "friends" ? Instead they where all speaking in unison saying some crazy stuff like and to the moon she shall ..... I mean clear has day. There was only 3 seconds worth. But there was no signing from them and you heard clear what they where saying!!! How the video camera picked that up amazes my family to this day. 
This is a true story, and I will not try and defend it. Everyone who watched the tape heard exactly the same as the family !!


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 21, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Speaking of voices that should not be there~ It was the year 1994 my sister had some "evil" friends, self proclaimed satan worshipers. It was her daughters 2 birthday and she had 3 of her " evil friends", my self and my our mother over for cake, etc. My mom was filming the the birthday party we all sang happy birthday (including 3 friends. Now here is the Erie but solid truth~ While we sang happy birthday, I could hear all of us singing just fine, even the lady "friend" that was smiling the whole way through the song. But after the party and back at my mom's house we played the tape for my father who did not attend. When we got to the birthday singing there was no singing from the 3 "friends" ? Instead they where all speaking in unison saying some crazy stuff like and to the moon she shall ..... I mean clear has day. There was only 3 seconds worth. But there was no signing from them and you heard clear what they where saying!!! How the video camera picked that up amazes my family to this day.
> This is a true story, and I will not try and defend it. Everyone who watched the tape heard exactly the same as the family !!


surely you kept the video tape? i know i wouldnt have deleted over such a weird occurrence.
you could be showing us the video to show us


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 21, 2011)

The Video, even though taken so many years ago, I am sure it's still at my Mom's. It was her first grand daughters birthday and only 3 seconds is not"explainable". The camera is focused on my niece and the cake, the voices just start and stop out of the blue. So there is nothing to see, just hear.


ginjawarrior said:


> surely you kept the video tape? i know i wouldnt have deleted over such a weird occurrence.
> you could be showing us the video to show us


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## Heisenberg (Jun 21, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Speaking of voices that should not be there~ It was the year 1994 my sister had some "evil" friends, self proclaimed satan worshipers. It was her daughters 2 birthday and she had 3 of her " evil friends", my self and my our mother over for cake, etc. My mom was filming the the birthday party we all sang happy birthday (including 3 friends. Now here is the Erie but solid truth~ While we sang happy birthday, I could hear all of us singing just fine, even the lady "friend" that was smiling the whole way through the song. But after the party and back at my mom's house we played the tape for my father who did not attend. When we got to the birthday singing there was no singing from the 3 "friends" ? Instead they where all speaking in unison saying some crazy stuff like and to the moon she shall ..... I mean clear has day. There was only 3 seconds worth. But there was no signing from them and you heard clear what they where saying!!! How the video camera picked that up amazes my family to this day.
> This is a true story, and I will not try and defend it. Everyone who watched the tape heard exactly the same as the family !!


That is a delightfully creepy story, thanks for sharing. No sarcasm intended. I find EVP's to be especially creepy for some reason, which is why I really enjoyed an interview I heard with Brain Jones. He claims he does not seek out these voices, and would in fact prefer to not hear them. He hears talking in almost all sounds, like a door hinge squeaking, and has recorded a great deal of it. He has some recordings of animals talking that gives me goosebumps.

Here is the interviews (voices actually interfere during the interview) Search for Brian Jones, there are several separate interviews.

Here is his personal page which includes the animal communications.

So you see I find the idea of ghostly communication via manipulation of sound and equipment to be a fascinating subject. I would love for it to be true, yet I have standards for what it takes to convince me to believe something. I can not go from 'unexplained' to 'explained by ghosts', especially when 'explained by pareidolia' fits much better.


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## JMain (Jun 21, 2011)

only if I slipped blotter will i believe in ghosts


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 21, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> That is a delightfully creepy story, thanks for sharing. No sarcasm intended. I find EVP's to be especially creepy for some reason, which is why I really enjoyed an interview I heard with Brain Jones. He claims he does not seek out these voices, and would in fact prefer to not hear them. He hears talking in almost all sounds, like a door hinge squeaking, and has recorded a great deal of it. He has some recordings of animals talking that gives me goosebumps.
> 
> Here is the interviews (voices actually interfere during the interview) Search for Brian Jones, there are several separate interviews.
> 
> ...


Very well said and just as valid a point! A tenured scientist at work would not take a irrational and far deduction such as "unexplained to explained by ghost". 

I can attest to true concrete scientific evidence of a *phenomena* known as apparition(s). However, I do not deduct this to be something heavenly, demonic, or godsend. Or even per say something trying an attempt to "communicate" in some form or another. But some believe confusion is a common form of communication, and in a sense if these apparition did anything , I would say they added more confusion than helped me draw a rational conclusion on their true existence  

In my opinion most who "see" these apparition(s) tend to deduce it to being a "ghost", but still to this day we can't scientifically prove ghost are nothing more than say a hallucination or illusion. 

Electronic Voice *Phenomena *although they can be very creepy and very "humanly intelligent" it is still not enough.

Off Topic, +Rep to JMain for the Lovely Jubbly Avatar


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## bobbypyn (Jun 22, 2011)

But guys, it's like this: I could come up with rational explanations for everything I've experienced if I were to look hard enough, with a critical enough view. I could choose to completely ignore the mystical aspect of what I've experinced; but why would I do that when I have opened a door to eternity?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 22, 2011)

Here is a more recent story. I work in private care, hospice, etc. I got a call for a hospice job and went to go meet the lady on hospice. She was 92 very cool, quite and just really happy go lucky. She was ready to die. First day I was there she was sitting in a recliner and only answered my questions with a smile and saying that's nice. 2nd day she was in bed for most the day, 3rd day she started sleeping more and by the 5th day I called the family and said they should come up and say there goodbye's. By then she was at eyes closed, mouth wide open, and labored breathing (normal). 
Well the family got there the next day. The lady (Mary) was stiff in bed, still breathing, eye's closed/open, still living. Anyways it was just Mary's favorite niece (as I was told by niece) and myself in room with Mary. All of a sudden I see Mary ( in spirit) standing next to her niece and just talking a mile away towards her as her niece and I where talking to each other. I thought Mary must of just died, so I checked her pulse, and nope still alive. Now 2 things puzzled me, 1st- why did I see Mary's spirit before she left body, and 2nd when I talked to Mary she was nice and quite. 
Well as I talked to family over the next few days, I found out that Mary loved to talk, and talk a lot. So that part added up, but how was it that her Spirit left body before she died? That was a first for me. Normally I don't see the dead (spirit) until at least 20mins after die ing.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 22, 2011)

the body had deteriorated to the point where her spirit was only loosely attached to it. at that point, it's kinda relaxed as to how tied to the body you are. you witnessed her out of body/ near death experience. it's not so black and white as we'd like to think it is.

GG, you're the ultimate hospice caregiver: combo comfort provider and guide to the next realm. that's pretty cool really.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 22, 2011)

ok, Werner; you've opened up some interesting dilemmas here. my friend isn't sure of how to "get a lock" on you, so to speak; how to home in on where you are geographically. I don't wanna know anything about your location so we're trying to iron out how to do this. one option involves you reaching out and sending up a beacon of sorts, but that requires a modicum of faith, insofar as you must believe that it is possible you're reaching out to a real entity. It would involve spoken invocations, but nothing unholy or what have you. You don't have to believe it's real; you need only accept that the possibility is real. the rest will work itself out. like i said; we're trying to iron out the details... I'm on it.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jun 22, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ok, Werner; you've opened up some interesting dilemmas here. my friend isn't sure of how to "get a lock" on you, so to speak; how to home in on where you are geographically. I don't wanna know anything about your location so we're trying to iron out how to do this. one option involves you reaching out and sending up a beacon of sorts, but that requires a modicum of faith, insofar as you must believe that it is possible you're reaching out to a real entity. It would involve spoken invocations, but nothing unholy or what have you. You don't have to believe it's real; you need only accept that the possibility is real. the rest will work itself out. like i said; we're trying to iron out the details... I'm on it.


Just a quick note. If one is to accept that the possibility is real then the same must be applied to the possibility that it is NOT real  " An equal spectrum has two sides. Leaving one as a "non-option" would provide a great one sided view"  --Emerson 

When you only accept one dimension as a possibility you are bias.
Cherrio Mates


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## guy incognito (Jun 22, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> But guys, it's like this: I could come up with rational explanations for everything I've experienced if I were to look hard enough, with a critical enough view. I could choose to completely ignore the mystical aspect of what I've experinced; but why would I do that when I have opened a door to eternity?


And yet instead you attribute it to magic. Fascinating.

I think bobbypyn and goldenganja13 have some serious psychological problems. I feel less comfortable knowing there are mentally ill people like this out in society.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 22, 2011)

ROFLAO, hey that's great. You should be proud that I am walking in society. I grow some of the best organics here in Eugene,Or. and I always give labeled pre rolls away, and when i feel the "pull" i give away a full bottel of my thc medicine. God bless Ganja growing psychics and medium's. I'm so Stoned~ Irie Irie


guy incognito said:


> And yet instead you attribute it to magic. Fascinating.
> 
> I think bobbypyn and goldenganja13 have some serious psychological problems. I feel less comfortable knowing there are mentally ill people like this out in society.


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## Fadedflower (Jun 22, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> And yet instead you attribute it to magic. Fascinating.
> 
> I think bobbypyn and goldenganja13 have some serious psychological problems. I feel less comfortable knowing there are mentally ill people like this out in society.


Unfortunately, I fear it is you who has the psychological problems. If you would like some advice on how to begin on a path to self and Universal enlightenment, I would be glad to help you. Perhaps, I have to ask her, my spiritual advisor could be of assitance. It's difficult dealing with self hatred and often causes lashing out at others, but I can help you discover a new and better way and in the process you will learn to forgive and even love yourself. I sense it's not too late.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 23, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> And yet instead you attribute it to magic. Fascinating.
> 
> I think bobbypyn and goldenganja13 have some serious psychological problems. I feel less comfortable knowing there are mentally ill people like this out in society.


 It's like dreaming. On one hand, if you wake up in the morning and tell friends and family about it maybe they can help you figure out what its about. it's a very useful tool for self analysis and metacognition. On the other hand, telling them about the dream but insisting it really happened and that you can do those things in life. Well, even I'm not that fucking stupid. Crazy, but not fucking stupid. And I resent the implication that me and my crazy-but-not-stupid ilk would fall for preposterous hippie witch bullshit like this psychic hotline ad bit:





Fadedflower said:


> Unfortunately, I fear it is you who has the psychological problems. If you would like some advice on how to begin on a path to self and Universal enlightenment, I would be glad to help you. Perhaps, I have to ask her, my spiritual advisor could be of assitance. It's difficult dealing with self hatred and often causes lashing out at others, but I can help you discover a new and better way and in the process you will learn to forgive and even love yourself. I sense it's not too late.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 23, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> *Well as I talked to family over the next few days, I found out that Mary loved to talk, and talk a lot. So that part added up*, but how was it that her Spirit left body before she died? That was a first for me. Normally I don't see the dead (spirit) until at least 20mins after die ing.


 Pecause the dead are dead. You are seeing projections of the family's memory.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> And yet instead you attribute it to magic. Fascinating.
> 
> I think bobbypyn and goldenganja13 have some serious psychological problems. I feel less comfortable knowing there are mentally ill people like this out in society.


would you like a copy of the results from my last voluntary psych eval? don't you think I have explored the possibility that I have gone bat shit insane? that was a very real concern when all this began for me, even with my faith, I still questioned the veracity of my experience til I was satisfied it was genuine; I exhausted all other options. like i said before: As you are, I was; as I am, you shall be... even if only for eternity.


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 23, 2011)

Who would have thought, rollitup could have their own psychic network with all these mediums coming out in this thread.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> Just a quick note. If one is to accept that the possibility is real then the same must be applied to the possibility that it is NOT real  " An equal spectrum has two sides. Leaving one as a "non-option" would provide a great one sided view"  --Emerson
> 
> When you only accept one dimension as a possibility you are bias.
> Cherrio Mates


your quotes aren't relevant to what I said; in fact, they support what I said! all I ask is for the acceptance that a possibility is real; how is that limiting one's scope? I find it to be quite the contrary, for if I were asking him to limit his scope of perception I would INSIST that he accept what i say as truth as a prerequisite for the experience. that's nowhere close to what I said...


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

mouthmeetsoap said:


> Who would have thought, rollitup could have their own psychic network with all these mediums coming out in this thread.


this ain't all of us either... there are several others who have experiences on the regs, but they don't have the wherewithal for a good ol fight like I do, so they don't say anything & I respect their choice to stay out of this. You're surrounded by spiritually enhanced people by virtue of this being a weed site.  deal with it.

and Hawking is a bitter mishapen little troll who hates God for putting him in that body. period. Sidis was far more intelligent and nowhere near as egotistical. just sayin....


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

Hey, Guy Incognito; will you please post a few more times so my friends can practice their homing skills and fry your comp for me? come on badass... let's play! my buddies would LOVE to make your acquaintance. real talk. you opened the door by disrespecting my beliefs; game on bitch.... game fucking ON.  so go ahead and talk your shit now homey... please.

GG, stay out of this: I'm sick of this one's bullshit. my friends don't care for his attitude either. they wanna play now... 

LMAO: when GI has to go to the library to get online (cuz his computer doesn't work) to beg me to make them stop fucking with him, we'll see who needs to be institutionalized. indeed we will.


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## karri0n (Jun 23, 2011)

Bobby, I wish you would stop posting. You aren't helping the cause with your crazy and obvious bs.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

that's unfortunate. Ok Karrion... have you ever met JR in the tubes? if you have, you KNOW who I'm talkin about when I say JR. How about Keenan? Blaize? Luke? any of those names ring a bell, blindwalker? if so, ask them who I am; for I am known there by many. If all of this is greek to you (which I rather suspect it is cuz I think you're what they call a "sewer rat" in the tubes; an interloper that JR & co. are charged with clearing outta the tubes when ya'll chew your way in,) next time you go there, tell em you're talkin to Luke's dad online. see what they tell you. smartass.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Hey, Guy Incognito; will you please post a few more times so my friends can practice their homing skills and fry your comp for me? come on badass... let's play! my buddies would LOVE to make your acquaintance. real talk. you opened the door by disrespecting my beliefs; game on bitch.... game fucking ON.  so go ahead and talk your shit now homey... please.
> 
> GG, stay out of this: I'm sick of this one's bullshit. my friends don't care for his attitude either. they wanna play now...
> 
> LMAO: when GI has to go to the library to get online (cuz his computer doesn't work) to beg me to make them stop fucking with him, we'll see who needs to be institutionalized. indeed we will.


So you support terrorism as a method of defending your beliefs? You have just removed any sort of substance your opinion had left. For the record I don't agree with calling anyone mentally retarded outside of a clinical context. I believe even the smartest person can still fall victim to tricks and mistakes if they are not careful; it is completely understandable. What is not understandable is making threats in an attempt to stifle another's right to express their opinion. How would you feel if we simply silenced you for expressing your opinion and promised harm? Would that strike you as being fair? Do you believe in setting a good example by following the standards you've set for others?


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> So you support terrorism as a method of defending your beliefs? You have just removed any sort of substance your opinion had left. For the record I don't agree with calling anyone mentally retarded outside of a clinical context. I believe even the smartest person can still fall victim to tricks and mistakes if they are not careful; it is completely understandable. What is not understandable is attempting to stiffle another's right to express their opinion through the use of threats.


OHHHHH wait just one second my friend! in order for my terroristic threats to have any validity what so fucking ever, you have to admit that they are based in an ability to act upon them! NOW we're getting somewhere. and relax, Werner; I'm just weary of taunts from those who refuse to explore possibilities. do you really blame me? seriously?

for the record, I would never attack in such a manner unless it was warranted, cuz the people involved wouldn't support such acts... but shutting up a smartass with a bunch of inconveniences IS on the menu. I didn't threaten him; just his electronics. he'll live without em if this should come to fruition. Actually i was trying to set up some practice for our little experiment... not to harm your gear, mind you, just to let you get a peek behind the veil.

some of the ppl I talk to over there are wonderfully mischievious; playfully so, but a couple of em like to play rough. so be it. I don't judge.


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## cannabisguru (Jun 23, 2011)

or 'souls'. most 'spirit hunters' refer to them as 'orbs' (little balls of energy).

then there are also the 'shadow' spirits.. which I think those are mostly negative spirits, more

than likely a demon of some sort.


I've had a few experiences that really changed my scope on the whole subject of the 'afterlife'.

One experience in particular, to shorten the entire story.. a bus load of school children was 

going up a little incline, which also happened to be on a small bridge that goes over a major

Interstate Highway right? Well, coming the opposite way, was a large dump truck which

was apparently going to fast (75 to 80 MPH) coming down the incline.. his brakes 

apparently failed and he could not get the truck to slow down no matter what he tried.


Well, the school bus with the children in it just stopped and the bus driver slammed the

school bus into reverse and floored it.. in hopes of possibly avoiding the out of control

dump truck. Unfortunately the dump truck basically t-boned the school bus.. hitting it

with such force that it actually knocked the bus off the bridge onto the major highway

below.. which is where a 13 car pile-up happened because of this.


Well, all the children were killed except 2 of them I believe. This happened back in the 

early to mid 1960's.. 

This is where I had my experience that I will never forget. When I got there, I parked

my truck on the side of the bridge, off the road and put my hazard lights on. I then put

my truck into 'neutral' - sure enough, the truck begins to go *up* the incline/bridge/road.

This is no freaking joke here neither. Now, physics can explain most of that part.


However, physics cannot explain why I suddenly felt energized.. why every single hair

on my body immediately stood straight up.. and I had goosebumps covering my ENTIRE

body.. and I also started to immediately feel great sorry and grief.. like so much of it.

It was almost like I was feeling their sorry and grief.. the energy wasn't negative really..

more sad and just great sorry than anything else. I actually broke out in freaking tears!

It was that strong! I'll never forget that night man.. never ever forget that.


And until something like this happens to you.. please don't judge me or think I'm crazy.

Thanks for reading (those that read it.)




Peace & love ppl.


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Hey, Guy Incognito; will you please post a few more times so my friends can practice their homing skills and fry your comp for me? come on badass... let's play! my buddies would LOVE to make your acquaintance. real talk. you opened the door by disrespecting my beliefs; game on bitch.... game fucking ON.  so go ahead and talk your shit now homey... please.
> 
> GG, stay out of this: I'm sick of this one's bullshit. my friends don't care for his attitude either. they wanna play now...
> 
> LMAO: when GI has to go to the library to get online (cuz his computer doesn't work) to beg me to make them stop fucking with him, we'll see who needs to be institutionalized. indeed we will.


If anything were to happen to GIs comp, you'd be in deep shit. This thread was a good read until your feelings were hurt and you started just plain ol' being rude to people. You are getting defensive out of simply not being able to defend yourself, at least not as well as karri0n and Golden Ganja. 

Sidis was very very intelligent. Like an IQ of 300 I believe. He was also an atheist.


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## cannabisguru (Jun 23, 2011)

mouthmeetsoap said:


> Who would have thought, rollitup could have their own psychic network with all these mediums coming out in this thread.



I don't prefer myself to be a psychic. Never have and never will claim to be one.

However.. I do strongly believe that if (for me example) someone happens to be extra sensitive to energy spikes and other sensations that come from energy spikes? They should listen to those extra senses. Just my opinion though.

I believe that I'm just sensitive to energy fluctuations.. and the night I felt all the sorry, grief.. mixed with almost a little anger?? Yeah, it fits. It's how those children probably feel right now. It's the energy their spirits are giving off.. that I'm sensitive to. 

I mean, I've personally never actually seen a true "spirit" or "ghost". Most people tend to think that a ghost is like seeing an invisible person.. or a transparent human. Or an all white floating energy. Whatever the case might be.. I believe that when you pass, you do indeed enter the afterlife. Whatever it might be.. I believe that we all (our souls) do indeed go somewhere.. to some type of 'afterlife'. 

I mean I have seen some VERY indisputable pictures/videos that would blow your mind. Some of them that I've seen in the past, were actually captured on police car dash-cameras. So its not like they're going to lie about something like that. Highly unlikely.

But yeah, there's some type of 'afterlife' for each one of us.. as we exit this reality - we then enter another one.

peace


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 23, 2011)

This was no projection from memory's. This was the spirit of a lady dieing not more than 3 feet from me telling her granddaughter how happy she was with her and how she was always her favorite, and on and on.


euthanatos93420 said:


> Pecause the dead are dead. You are seeing projections of the family's memory.


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## cannabisguru (Jun 23, 2011)

mouthmeetsoap said:


> If anything were to happen to GIs comp, you'd be in deep shit. This thread was a good read until your feelings were hurt and you started just plain ol' being rude to people. You are getting defensive out of simply not being able to defend yourself, at least not as well as karri0n and Golden Ganja.
> 
> Sidis was very very intelligent. Like an IQ of 300 I believe. He was also an atheist.



Heh, there's always got to be someone to ruin it for the rest of us. I'm use to it though.

Everyone needs to just chill out and maybe smoke a bowl if ya got one. I know I do.. 

Lets forget about the immature kids.. and continue on with this interesting thread, shall we?



peace.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> OHHHHH wait just one second my friend! in order for my terroristic threats to have any validity what so fucking ever, you have to admit that they are based in an ability to act upon them! NOW we're getting somewhere. and relax, Werner; I'm just weary of taunts from those who refuse to explore possibilities. do you really blame me? seriously?
> 
> for the record, I would never attack in such a manner unless it was warranted, cuz the people involved wouldn't support such acts... but *shutting up a smartass with a bunch of inconveniences IS on the menu*. I didn't threaten him; just his electronics. he'll live without em if this should come to fruition. Actually i was trying to set up some practice for our little experiment... not to harm your gear, mind you, just to let you get a peek behind the veil.


We live in a world that values a free marketplace of ideas & the right to express them. In this environment we are bound to hit upon offensive concepts. It is impossible to never be offended. Everything you say or do offends someone, somewhere on some level. Any clothes you might wear offends someone for some reason, and if you take them all off you offend even more. The only way to grantee that no one is ever offended is to never let anyone say or do anything. Furthermore, being offended does not in any way justify causing harm to others, or silencing them. The very idea offends me.


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## guy incognito (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> Hey, Guy Incognito; will you please post a few more times so my friends can practice their homing skills and fry your comp for me? come on badass... let's play! my buddies would LOVE to make your acquaintance. real talk. you opened the door by disrespecting my beliefs; game on bitch.... game fucking ON.  so go ahead and talk your shit now homey... please.
> 
> GG, stay out of this: I'm sick of this one's bullshit. my friends don't care for his attitude either. they wanna play now...
> 
> LMAO: when GI has to go to the library to get online (cuz his computer doesn't work) to beg me to make them stop fucking with him, we'll see who needs to be institutionalized. indeed we will.


Yes believe me or I will scare you into believing with violence. Why would I believe in your magic powers if my computer gets infected/fried? Wouldn't a much much (millions of orders of magnitude) more likely explanation be a non magical computer hack? Or just that a component failed and fried? Computers get hacked and fried every day and has nothing to do with the supernatural. I have had computers fry. Maybe I pissed of a phony psychic? Your beliefs (the ones presented in this thread) do not deserve any respect.


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## cannabisguru (Jun 23, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> This was no projection from memory's. This was the spirit of a lady dieing not more than 3 feet from me telling her granddaughter how happy she was with her and how she was always her favorite, and on and on.


Eh, what now? lol - I wasn't disagreeing with you on anything. I do indeed believe that spirits are all around us.. I've seen too much credible but unexplainable evidence to not believe in it. Plus, when I was younger.. I had a 'near death' experience. Happened when I was 10 years old - I've posted the story around here somewhere if your interested.. most people aren't though.. which I don't blame them. 

But anyhow, yeah I was clinically dead for 3 minutes the first time. The second time my heart stopped for just over 3 minutes.. and I'm telling you man, what I told my parents after I recovered.. doesn't make sense to most people. I actually told them that I remembered meeting my great grandpa/grandma.. not only that! - but I also described them, as how I remembered seeing them. I even talked to them.. can't remember what we spoke about (which I hate.. I wish I could). 

The thing to my experience is that I never got the chance to meet my great grandma/grandpa of course.. because I was not born into this world just yet of course. But yet, when I told my parents about the experience, I described them to the freaking 'T', as to how their hair was fixed and what they were wearing when I spoke/seen them. Freaked my parents out because I described them.. as they were when they past away and were buried. 

I know, I know.. most of you can and probably will call my a nutcase, but I'm not a nutcase and I know that so that's all that matters. It's great for me, because I know that there is something after this life on Earth.. just not 100% sure exactly what it is.

Each and every one of us.. will eventually one day know. 

peace.


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## guy incognito (Jun 23, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> So you support terrorism as a method of defending your beliefs? You have just removed any sort of substance your opinion had left.  For the record I don't agree with calling anyone mentally retarded outside of a clinical context. I believe even the smartest person can still fall victim to tricks and mistakes if they are not careful; it is completely understandable. What is not understandable is making threats in an attempt to stifle another's right to express their opinion. How would you feel if we simply silenced you for expressing your opinion and promised harm? Would that strike you as being fair? Do you believe in setting a good example by following the standards you've set for others?


I said mentally ill, not mentally retarded; though I may have used that terminology somewhere in this thread, and I still think it's applicable. Have you read what they are posting? They have gone way beyond merely falling victim to some mistake or illusion. They are absolutely delusional. 

Goldenganja never saw the things she is claiming, nor can she do the things she claims she can. No one can. I realize this, and you realize this. She is either a liar or she really believes the stuff she is saying, in which case I don't know what you would call it other than being mentally ill. It is certainly not mentally healthy. The same applies to bobbypyn.


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## cannabisguru (Jun 23, 2011)

uggghh.. its useless. I'm done with this thread.


buh bye now.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2011)

cannabisguru said:


> I mean I have seen some VERY indisputable pictures/videos that would blow your mind. Some of them that I've seen in the past, were actually captured on police car dash-cameras. So its not like they're going to lie about something like that. Highly unlikely.


Hrmm well I would want something to be disputable, and in fact be disputed and ideally hold up under this scrutiny. Maybe this is what you meant by indisputable, but it sounds like your saying no critical examination ever took place (because it was deemed unneeded). I also don't in general think paranormal claims are simply a matter of lying or telling the truth, but also mistakes and bias and many other subtitles.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

OPERATOR: "911, what's your emergency?"
Guy:"Um... yeah, I need to report a terroristic threat."
OPERATOR: "Ok, sir. What was the nature of this threat?"
Guy: "This dude online said he was gonna sic his ghost friends on me and mess up my computer."
OPERATOR: *click*

GMAFB!!!!! 

do you really not see the dichotomy here? in order to be offended by my "threats" you will have to give credence to my ability to follow through on them. otherwise, I should be as offensive to you as a homeless person saying he's going to nuke DC. I should in fact appear as pathetic, but you see it as sinister. we are making progress with you, Werner.


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## guy incognito (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> OPERATOR: "911, what's your emergency?"
> Guy:"Um... yeah, I need to report a terroristic threat."
> OPERATOR: "Ok, sir. What was the nature of this threat?"
> Guy: "This dude online said he was gonna sic his ghost friends on me and mess up my computer."
> ...


Illustrating the ridiculousness of your threat doesn't mean it wasn't a threat.


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## karri0n (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> that's unfortunate. Ok Karrion... have you ever met JR in the tubes? if you have, you KNOW who I'm talkin about when I say JR. How about Keenan? Blaize? Luke? any of those names ring a bell, blindwalker? if so, ask them who I am; for I am known there by many. If all of this is greek to you (which I rather suspect it is cuz I think you're what they call a "sewer rat" in the tubes; an interloper that JR & co. are charged with clearing outta the tubes when ya'll chew your way in,) next time you go there, tell em you're talkin to Luke's dad online. see what they tell you. smartass.


Dude. Tubes? wtf are you on about? You must be a pretty worthless piece of shit(literally) if your underworld looks like a sewer. More likely is that you're delusional, and even more likely is that you're a troll.

JR? Keenan? Blaize? You're naming characters from Dallas, Nickelodeon, and Streets of Rage. Entities in the underworld, if they have names, are either native/ tribal names, are concepts, or have names such as "Bear" or "Eagle". If they were ever people, they have generally shed their earthly identity long ago. The exception is when you are explicitly journeying as part of a soul retrieval ritual and you are bringing "fragments" back to your client/patient.

You sound like someone I knew in High school - one day, there was an episode of Xena where she met some kind of spiritual/martial arts teacher and learned lessons from him. The very next day, this person came into school and said they met a new spirit guide on the astral plane, who was an old asian martial artist and phiosophical teacher, who had the same name and appearance as the character on Xena. He pulled shit like this all the time. In this instance, however, several other kids in our group had also seen that episode the day before. He insisted that he had some explanation as to why it wasn't bullshit - something like the writers of the show accidentally channeling the same spirit guide before writing them into the episode.

There are techniques out there, if you're willing to actually read and do work(doubtful) for differentiating between whether you are actually journeying or just imagining shit. I recommend you look into them.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

karri0n said:


> Dude. Tubes? wtf are you on about? You must be a pretty worthless piece of shit(literally) if your underworld looks like a sewer. More likely is that you're delusional, and even more likely is that you're a troll.
> 
> JR? Keenan? Blaize? You're naming characters from Dallas, Nickelodeon, and Streets of Rage. Entities in the underworld, if they have names, are either native/ tribal names, are concepts, or have names such as "Bear" or "Eagle". If they were ever people, they have generally shed their earthly identity long ago. The exception is when you are explicitly journeying as part of a soul retrieval ritual and you are bringing "fragments" back to your client/patient.


you are sadly mistaken, broseph. and you have no clue WTF youre talking about. My dead wife's name is Rita Standing Deer; grand daughter to Paul Standing Deer, Shaman to the Eastern Band Cherokee Nation. fuck you.

Blaize Blouin. Keenan Milton. and fuck you again.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> I said mentally ill, not mentally retarded; though I may have used that terminology somewhere in this thread, and I still think it's applicable. Have you read what they are posting? They have gone way beyond merely falling victim to some mistake or illusion. They are absolutely delusional.
> 
> Goldenganja never saw the things she is claiming, nor can she do the things she claims she can. No one can. I realize this, and you realize this. She is either a liar or she really believes the stuff she is saying, in which case I don't know what you would call it other than being mentally ill. It is certainly not mentally healthy. The same applies to bobbypyn.


Oh you certainly have a point. I suppose things like hyperactive pattern recognition do qualify as abnormal. I am not a doctor so I am not sure the exact classifications. But yes, the more GG explains the more it seems as if her beliefs could be the result of or at least exasperated by an illness pattern. 

What I meant to state for the record is, I don't think someone believing in ghosts is anymore delusional than someone who sees god in a taco, or experiences sleep paralysis and interprets it as a close encounter, and these things often happen to people who otherwise exhibit no signs of mental disability. I didn't mean it as a direct retort to your comment.


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## karri0n (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> View attachment 1661206
> 
> .


Yes, Cherokee shamans are WELL known for sharing their secrets with white men.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> OPERATOR: "911, what's your emergency?"
> Guy:"Um... yeah, I need to report a terroristic threat."
> OPERATOR: "Ok, sir. What was the nature of this threat?"
> Guy: "This dude online said he was gonna sic his ghost friends on me and mess up my computer."
> ...


What I see is someone using scare tactics, attempting to instill fear, in order to silence an opinion. Whether those tactics were grounded in reality has no bearing on the intent.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

karri0n said:


> Yes, Cherokee shamans are WELL known for sharing their secrets with white men.


who said he shared anything with me!?! I wasn't treated well by them, to say the least. But the fact remains of who my wife is. she is the secret. I'm possessed of zero abilities myself. and for the record, I earned the respect I have been given by her people now.

And Paul adopted a white child and raised him as his own. You are ignorant.


and once they found out I'm part Cherokee, they let me make it. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ik09xFT6mk


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## bobbypyn (Jun 23, 2011)

ya know what....? I'm over this. you assholes don't deserve to live in my reality. have fun with yours. I'm gonna go skate now. later.


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## PeacefulKid1992 (Jun 23, 2011)

I believe in ghost,demons, supernatural stuff but some of the stuff they talk about is fake. Some is not fake.
i love ghost hunting myself


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## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2011)

PeacefulKid1992 said:


> I believe in ghost,demons, supernatural stuff but some of the stuff they talk about is fake. Some is not fake.
> i love ghost hunting myself


I like the idea of ghost hunting too, in spite of the cheesy practice television glamorizes. I wonder, how do you distinguish between what is fake and what is real? I like to closely examine my criteria for what I deem is real, and also make room for something simply being unexplained, as opposed to fake or real. I like to set a consistent standard for going from unexplained to explained by supernatural, and so far, that standard has not been met.


For anyone who is interested, I found this podcast enjoyable.

From the site


> Joe Nickell explains why he investigates the paranormal, as opposed to merely pronouncing his skepticism of it. He talks about his training as a detective and why it was formative, along with his background in magic. He explains why field experience is so important to scientific paranormal investigation. He distinguishes between skepticism and debunking, and what results from each approach. He argues that the existence of the paranormal is not the only question to answer while conducting paranormal investigations. He explains why he continues investigating subjects he has already looked numerous times, such as ghosts, lake monsters and miracle claims, and why he spends time on the paranormal as opposed to other important topics. He talks about whether the supernatural claim that God exists should be a focus of the paranormal investigator. And he comments on the new trend of skeptical paranormal investigation groups starting up in cities throughout North America.


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## guy incognito (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> ya know what....? I'm over this. you assholes don't deserve to live in my reality. have fun with yours. I'm gonna go skate now. later.


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## guy incognito (Jun 23, 2011)

On an unrelated note I finished season 1 of breaking bad last night. I now understand your name and avatar. Good show.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 23, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> On an unrelated note I finished season 1 of breaking bad last night. I now understand your name and avatar. Good show.


Haha, but did you understand my reference to Bosco?!?


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## karri0n (Jun 23, 2011)

heisenberg said:


> haha, but did you understand my reference to bosco?!?


What?!

HOW DID YOU KNOW MY PIN NUMBER?!

edit: also, Breaking Bad is really the only television show I ever recommend to people. It's definitely the best dramatic show I've ever watched. I wish they would stop this whole skipping a year between seasons thing though.

edit2:
Bobbypyn seems to think that all skateboarders become some sort of ascended transcendal being tasked with keeping the afterlife "clean" when they pass on....

Sounds legit.


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## mouthmeetsoap (Jun 23, 2011)

bobbypyn said:


> OPERATOR: "911, what's your emergency?"
> Guy:"Um... yeah, I need to report a terroristic threat."
> OPERATOR: "Ok, sir. What was the nature of this threat?"
> Guy: "This dude online said he was gonna sic his ghost friends on me and mess up my computer."
> ...


Just want to make it clear that I was under the impression you had REAL friends with hacking capabilities. Haha. Wow.


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## PeacefulKid1992 (Jun 23, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> I like the idea of ghost hunting too, in spite of the cheesy practice television glamorizes. I wonder, how do you distinguish between what is fake and what is real? I like to closely examine my criteria for what I deem is real, and also make room for something simply being unexplained, as opposed to fake or real. I like to set a consistent standard for going from unexplained to explained by supernatural, and so far, that standard has not been met.
> 
> 
> For anyone who is interested, I found this podcast enjoyable.
> ...


if u want to c some ghost or demons. u can check online if ur city or state has real haunted places. go check em out when nobody is there. at night or after 12 or 3-4 pm when spirits n ghost n etc are most active.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 25, 2011)

euthanatos93420 said:


> Disclaimer: I am not a scientologist.
> 
> ...but the very fact that observation changes the observed kind of makes one wonder what that means about psychology.


This is only according to one theory of quantum mechanics, and this particular theory has no more support than other theories which do not make this assumption. In QM, an 'observer' does not have to posses a consciousness, it is simply anything which causes the system to decohere. It can be a robot or something as simple as a white screen. Even if we did conclude that conscious observation changes the observed on a quantum level, there is nothing suggesting this applies to a macro system such as psychology. Of course, we know of many things that effect psychological study, such as observation bias, but that lies within the observing consciousness and does not necessarily change the nature of the observed, nor does it require quantum theory as a mechanism.

To conclude that observation changes the nature of the things we detect with our natural senses requires much more than quantum theory.


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## bobbypyn (Jun 25, 2011)

you assholes got me in trouble... *giggles* fuck it.[video=youtube;I9s5z3zMilM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9s5z3zMilM&feature=related[/video]


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## based (Jun 26, 2011)

I believe in lies, i also believe in windows being open, i believe is silent wind, i believe in random cold chills, i believe when i sneeze its because of something caused not from a ghost


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 26, 2011)

Ba hum bug. Last night I woke up in the middle of the night and went into the bathroom to p. Then I heard my tv come on ( it makes a loud Ruuump noise when first comes on)So I yell into the living room at my 6 year old and ask her what is she doing? She yells back from her bed "what, what, I'm playing". Now I am like ???? My daughter is still in bed alseep. I am so tired I did not investigate, I just went back to bed. Woke up in the am and the tv was not on, but I heard the big Ruuump noise ?


based said:


> I believe in lies, i also believe in windows being open, i believe is silent wind, i believe in random cold chills, i believe when i sneeze its because of something caused not from a ghost


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 26, 2011)

How about Orbs ? Anyone?


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 26, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> the tv was not on, but I heard the big Ruuump noise ?


 Right. It DEFINATELY wasn't your half-dreaming semi-lucid hallucinations of a distinct sound you have heard thousands of times. BOO!



GoldenGanja13 said:


> How about Orbs ? Anyone?


 guy incognito posted a nice one.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 26, 2011)

Here is my cat Taylor. She is chilling in shoe then looks over at an Orb that comes floating her direction.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 26, 2011)

Wow guys, do you ever consider other explanations for things? Do you go looking only for evidence and theories which support your presumptions?

Hypnagogia is the name given for the transitional state between waking and sleeping. It is well documented that during this state the brain is more susceptible to hallucinations, particularly audio, and that cognitive functions are impaired. This can also lead to sleep paralysis, something your body does to keep from acting out dreams, if the body doesn't wake up when the brain does. 

Hypnagogia can also produce a false feeling of a presence. This feeling can be reproduced by electrically stimulating a part of the brain, in which case most people report feeling a presence directly behind or in front of them for a few minutes. So not only can we identify this state, we can reproduce it. It's easy to see how hypnagogia and it's effects give rise to all sorts of beliefs, including alien encounters, the sandman, succubi, ghosts and sea hags. It is interesting to note that no one misinterpreted this experience as 'alien abduction' before aliens were introduced into popular culture. In other words, the experience is very subjective.


Rather than spend a ton of time explaining that Orbs are well understood artifacts, I will simply say that in photographs where people purposely reproduce orbs by scattering dust, shooting through glass, or spraying water mist, the orbs look identical to what we see in paranormal photographs. So how do we distinguish between real orbs and those with worldly explanations? If we can not, then why think any of them are unexplained?

Incidentally, you have a beautiful kitty.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 26, 2011)

Thank you. Her name was Taylor. She hated little people including children. She would actually pen them in a corner then tear there legs up like a cat and dog fight. Such a great kitty. But the Orb was not "produced" and as you can see, it disturbed my kitty enough to get her attention.


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## guy incognito (Jun 26, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Ba hum bug. Last night I woke up in the middle of the night and went into the bathroom to p. Then I heard my tv come on ( it makes a loud Ruuump noise when first comes on)So I yell into the living room at my 6 year old and ask her what is she doing? She yells back from her bed "what, what, I'm playing". Now I am like ???? My daughter is still in bed alseep. I am so tired I did not investigate, I just went back to bed. Woke up in the am and the tv was not on, but I heard the big Ruuump noise ?


Case closed. This proves ghosts are real. The ghost got stoned and wanted to stay up late watching your tv.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 27, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Ba hum bug. Last night I woke up in the middle of the night and went into the bathroom to p. Then I heard my tv come on ( it makes a loud Ruuump noise when first comes on)So I yell into the living room at my 6 year old and ask her what is she doing? She yells back from her bed "what, what, I'm playing". Now I am like ???? My daughter is still in bed alseep. I am so tired I did not investigate, I just went back to bed. Woke up in the am and the tv was not on, but I heard the big Ruuump noise ?


didnt it bother you that your 6 year old was up and playing in middle of night? dont know about you but how ever tired i am i'd always make sure my kids were in bed and that the mysterious noises from other room wasnt a home invader before sleeping let alone putting whole thing down to "ghosts"


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

If my daughter where to get up and start watching tv in the middle of the night, yes it would bother me. But she was asleep in her bed, like I stated. As for looking through my house for "home intruders", well I know I locked my doors, and I live in a very nice community/neighborhood. I fear no intruders. And last, I am very aware and in-tuned to the spiritual world/ghost and it does not bother me that they turn on/off my tv.


ginjawarrior said:


> didnt it bother you that your 6 year old was up and playing in middle of night? dont know about you but how ever tired i am i'd always make sure my kids were in bed and that the mysterious noises from other room wasnt a home invader before sleeping let alone putting whole thing down to "ghosts"


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 27, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> If my daughter where to get up and start watching tv in the middle of the night, yes it would bother me. But she was asleep in her bed, like I stated. .





> She yells back from her bed "what, what, I'm playing"


which one was it playing or sleeping?

i find alot of people who "believe" in ghost cant even get the basic parts of their anecdotes to add up


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## guy incognito (Jun 27, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> If my daughter where to get up and start watching tv in the middle of the night, yes it would bother me. But she was asleep in her bed, like I stated. As for looking through my house for "home intruders", well I know I locked my doors, and I live in a very nice community/neighborhood. I fear no intruders. And last, I am very aware and in-tuned to the spiritual world/ghost and it does not bother me that they turn on/off my tv.


So a home intruder is not even a possibility, despite that we have millions of accounts on records of that happening? Even in locked houses and remote areas. 

But the idea that it is a ghost, when we don't have even a single recorded account of that EVER happening ANYWHERE, seems not only probable, but so probable that you immediately dismiss it as such and go back to bed?

Seriously, I think you are certifiable.


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2011)

In response to the question "Why does my TV turn itself on"



> Being a Electronic Technician, I have seen Sets that have a 1ohm resistor in the circuit that has changed value, and will contribute to this problem..Just one of those things to look for..And probably the most common,if not a remote malfunction. keep remote in another room when going to bed, and make sure the timer isn't set on your tv...if it again turns on by itself, suspect a resistor problem.


So we have an unexplained that could be explained by

Misperception
Hypnagogia
Intruder
Hoax (neighbor kid with remote)
Remote malfunction
TV malfunction

but the conclusion we settle on is ghosts.. without even the slightest notion that we should attempt to rule out the obvious. Does this seem like a reliable way to find the truth?


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## guy incognito (Jun 27, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> In response to the question "Why does my TV turn itself on"


The tv was not even on though. She "*heard the big Ruuump noise" *and assumed it had been turned on. She then assumed it was a ghost and went to bed, but it wasn't on in the morning. The longer this thread goes on the more I think she is a troll. No reasonable human could come to the same conclusions she does. Not even a retarded person.


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## Farfenugen (Jun 27, 2011)

Do ghosts believe in us?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> which one was it playing or sleeping?
> 
> i find alot of people who "believe" in ghost cant even get the basic parts of their anecdotes to add up


 My Daughter was asleep and that is why she yelled back from her bed which is not in living room where the TV is. When she yelled back "what?What? I'm playing" and the sound came from her room, well that told me I woke her enough for her to try and answer me. Cleared up enough ?


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

LOL yeah that's the way we Rock.


guy incognito said:


> So a home intruder is not even a possibility, despite that we have millions of accounts on records of that happening? Even in locked houses and remote areas.
> 
> But the idea that it is a ghost, when we don't have even a single recorded account of that EVER happening ANYWHERE, seems not only probable, but so probable that you immediately dismiss it as such and go back to bed?
> 
> Seriously, I think you are certifiable.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

Ok OK check this out, since we have a love for crying coo coo and such~Many many years ago in my drug dayz. My cousin and I took some great acid and was frying like eggs in a skillet. This was back when acid was lsd and not the crap u get these days. So my (x) wife comes home and we are in the middle of a heavy trip, she gets pissed and my cousin leaves. I get bitched out for feeding 45 fan tail guppies to the 2 Oscars in the 60 gal tank. I thought it was the coolest thing I ever seen. So after a long bitch out, she tells me to go to bed and sleep it off. So I walk over to the tv and turn it off, turn around and walk back towards the bedrooms. Then the TV came back On ? I was like what the hell? I look and the remote is on the table? So I walk over and turn it off again (wife starts yelling at me to come to bed), turn around and walk off, TV pops back on. So I called my X in to help me. I show her the remote is on table, but the tv will not stay off. Then the tv starts turning channels on its own, I mean zooming through channels, but just the one's that are still on air (it was 3am or so) this was before we had cable/satalite. She yells at me to do something so I ran over and unplugged the tv from the wall. Just after that the wall behind the tv started making loud cracking noises. I mean LOUD like I just pissed the wall off. Ok here comes my conclusion, ready? I believe since we (cousin and I) where on a lsd trip and our minds where open to killing/sacrificing all those innocent little fish that we some how had a very evil spirit enter my house.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

Heisenberg said:


> In response to the question "Why does my TV turn itself on"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you believe in a God ?


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 27, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Ok OK check this out, since we have a love for crying coo coo and such~Many many years ago in my drug dayz. My cousin and I took some great acid and was frying like eggs in a skillet. This was back when acid was lsd and not the crap u get these days. So my (x) wife comes home and we are in the middle of a heavy trip, she gets pissed and my cousin leaves. I get bitched out for feeding 45 fan tail guppies to the 2 Oscars in the 60 gal tank. I thought it was the coolest thing I ever seen. So after a long bitch out, she tells me to go to bed and sleep it off. So I walk over to the tv and turn it off, turn around and walk back towards the bedrooms. Then the TV came back On ? I was like what the hell? I look and the remote is on the table? So I walk over and turn it off again (wife starts yelling at me to come to bed), turn around and walk off, TV pops back on. So I called my X in to help me. I show her the remote is on table, but the tv will not stay off. Then the tv starts turning channels on its own, I mean zooming through channels, but just the one's that are still on air (it was 3am or so) this was before we had cable/satalite. She yells at me to do something so I ran over and unplugged the tv from the wall. Just after that the wall behind the tv started making loud cracking noises. I mean LOUD like I just pissed the wall off. Ok here comes my conclusion, ready? I believe since we (cousin and I) where on a lsd trip and our minds where open to killing/sacrificing all those innocent little fish that we some how had a very evil spirit enter my house.


you freaked out on lsd and you coming to conclusions based on that?

lsd doesnt do that to people it doesnt give you special powers it doesnt let you see god/ ghosts/ fairies/ it just makes things go wibbly for a bit.

it can break your mind yes but you need to remind yourself you took drugs and that its not real....


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 27, 2011)

ghosts are ninjas


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

Do you know or have any idea who Albert Hoffman is ? Do you know who Steve Jobs is ? Google them and see what they had in common.


ginjawarrior said:


> you freaked out on lsd and you coming to conclusions based on that?
> 
> lsd doesnt do that to people it doesnt give you special powers it doesnt let you see god/ ghosts/ fairies/ it just makes things go wibbly for a bit.
> 
> it can break your mind yes but you need to remind yourself you took drugs and that its not real....


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 27, 2011)

incidentally, pirates>ninjas and ghost pirates>all


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## Heisenberg (Jun 27, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Do you believe in a God ?


Do I believe there is a god - I don't know

Do I believe there is evidence or current reason to believe there is a god - No


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jun 27, 2011)

Thank you for answering.


Heisenberg said:


> Do I believe there is a god - I don't know
> 
> Do I believe there is evidence or current reason to believe there is a god - No


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## beardo (Jun 27, 2011)

[youtube]iCHFVTQKqdQ[/youtube]
I ain't afraid of no ghost.


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## guy incognito (Jun 27, 2011)

Fuck that's such a good song.


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## beardo (Jun 27, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> Fuck that's such a good song.


 The movie is still great even after all these years it holds up.


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## Thundakat85 (Jun 28, 2011)

absolutely, too much evidence.


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## ginjawarrior (Jun 28, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Do you know or have any idea who Albert Hoffman is ? Do you know who Steve Jobs is ? Google them and see what they had in common.


yes i know who they are but what has that got to do with *"lsd doesnt give you special powers it doesnt let you see god/ ghosts/ fairies/ it just makes things go wibbly for a bit."

*i know your talking shit, you know your talking shit.you little "lsd" stories might be enough for the people who have never taken it before but itwontstick with me ok?


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## euthanatos93420 (Jun 28, 2011)

ginjawarrior said:


> yes i know who they are but what has that got to do with *&quot;lsd doesnt give you special powers it doesnt let you see god/ ghosts/ fairies/ it just makes things go wibbly for a bit.&quot;
> 
> *i know your talking shit, you know your talking shit.you little &quot;lsd&quot; stories might be enough for the people who have never taken it before but itwontstick with me ok?


I've never used LSD, but other psychedelics let me talk to ghosts, spirits, and have special powers. Let me share with you a positive drug story. [video=youtube;vX1CvW38cHA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1CvW38cHA[/video] Obviously, I tried to take off from the ground and realized oh yeah _I almost forgot, I'm fucking high as fuck all_


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jun 30, 2011)

In one aspect i believe there are ,but it certainly is not the stereotypical ghost that we think when we here the word "ghost".More like ones left over energy that has yet to leave this plane for some reason or another.To most it will be nonesense to believe or think that there are or may be ghosts among us.It is yet again ones own life experience that will determine the opinion or belief of this subject matter.


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## Thundakat85 (Jun 30, 2011)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> In one aspect i believe there are ,but it certainly is not the stereotypical ghost that we think when we here the word "ghost".More like ones left over energy that has yet to leave this plane for some reason or another.To most it will be nonesense to believe or think that there are or may be ghosts among us.It is yet again ones own life experience that will determine the opinion or belief of this subject matter.


 My question to you is, what other aspect of the word "ghost" would anyone assume that there is? I mean besides what you hear or see in movies I suppose. I think we all generally think of a ghost as the energy or other form of manifestation of someone or something that has not left this planet/world/plane, correct? I agree that one's own experiences will predetermine their views on the subject matter. But IMO, to think that what we only see with the naked eye is all that is there, it's a bit selfish.


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jul 1, 2011)

I could not say what other aspect anyone would perceive that there is,its only the often given responses on the subject that has forgone any subjective thought leaving them without a greater concept of ghosts and what they very well may be, thats all i meant by it.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 1, 2011)

Brilliant. Ghosts ARE real. Want me to prove it? You are reading this thread. Whatever ghosts REALLY are, they've left an impression on enough people that they won't shut the fuck up about it. They are, if nothing else, a mental memetic.


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## guy incognito (Jul 1, 2011)

People talk about unicorns too.


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## grizlbr (Jul 1, 2011)

Spirit is real! You got one, it goes somewhere when you die. So yes I have seen spirit. If you want to call it the ghost of my great aunt SO? It Was her bedroom before I used it. Body soul spirit look it up so you will understand before you reach the happy hunting grounds and be left outside!


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 1, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> People talk about unicorns too.


 Eunuch Horns are real too.


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## obijohn (Jul 1, 2011)

I'm not doing much in the past year, but I've been involved with several investigative groups and believe me, there IS something. My theory is it may be interdimensional, at least in part.

We investigated a place where the residents saw a little girl who wasn't so nice, they had a room for their baby and the ghost kept telling them it was HER room and she would kill the baby. They went to stay elsewhere but let us in and hung around for the investigation. We got lots of EVP's, and saw the little girl! My wife and I were in the room, playing the lullaby CD that they played for the baby (and that was playing during her appearances) My wife was holding a doll as a trigger objext, suddenly a bright spark flew across the room...and the little girl partly manifested, no legs or head but we saw her dress and arms. My wife tried to coax her closer, the EMF detector went nuts, but she just kind of faded away. 

We told the residents about it and described the dress. The pulled a dress out of a drawer and it was the same one, their daughter's baptism dress! One group member is a sensitive, she felt that before the condo was built there was a man and his family that lived there, and he did something bad to his young daughter. I was alone in the room trying to record EVP's, it was almost time to go and I was trying to get a reaction. I said "are you the man who harmed his daughter?" When listening back, there was a clear "fuck" in a male voice after I said that.


Another time we were investigating a home. Lots of our gear was in the living room, we were in different parts of the house. I came out to get something from my case. I had a digital recorder going all the time with me. As I was getting my stuff I was talking, saying stuff like we are here to help you but you have to let us know you are here and the like. I had some trouble finding what I needed, but finally did and left the room. On reviewing the recorder, after I said that, we could here several voices murmuring, with the clearest one saying "look at him, he doesn't know what he's doing. How is he going to help us?"
"


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## whileilaydying (Jul 1, 2011)

whos to say you have a spirit?
and not that your brain has just been trained through alot of time to think it has one


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## THâ­ (Jul 1, 2011)

lol this is awesome


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## Thundakat85 (Jul 1, 2011)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> I could not say what other aspect anyone would perceive that there is,its only the often given responses on the subject that has forgone any subjective thought leaving them without a greater concept of ghosts and what they very well may be, thats all i meant by it.


 I can agree with that. Youre basically saying that maybe people don't fully get the concept of a ghost? Perhaps that people cant fully get it because the only things talked about in mainstream media are things such as "EVPS", or "Did you hear that tapping?". I guess everyone is a ghost hunter now-a-days. People are more interested in seeing a cool ghost pic, rather than actually trying to find out what it is, or study it.


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## obijohn (Jul 1, 2011)

Thundakat85 said:


> I can agree with that. Youre basically saying that maybe people don't fully get the concept of a ghost? Perhaps that people cant fully get it because the only things talked about in mainstream media are things such as "EVPS", or "Did you hear that tapping?". I guess everyone is a ghost hunter now-a-days. People are more interested in seeing a cool ghost pic, rather than actually trying to find out what it is, or study it.


 Yeah, that's kind of screwed up the paranormal field. People WANT to see things, and have ghosts etc on their mind so every noise or whatever MUST be a ghost


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 1, 2011)

Thundakat85 said:


> People are more interested in seeing a cool ghost pic, rather than actually trying to find out what it is, or study it.


This, fucking this. Anyone who has watched more than a handful of GhosTV type shit need to read John Keel's Trojan Horse and shit brix.


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jul 1, 2011)

Ill say this much though,i grew up in a house were my great grandfather killed himself with a shotgun in the back of the house.At night there would be some real crazy sensations about the place..very eerie....I know pretty f%$ed up right?


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## Padawanbater2 (Jul 2, 2011)

All in the head.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 2, 2011)

Every religion says you have a spirit. Just give a thought to how many religions there are in the world.


whileilaydying said:


> whos to say you have a spirit?
> and not that your brain has just been trained through alot of time to think it has one


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 2, 2011)

Speaking of dolls~ I was in staying in a hotel with my girlfriend. She was very dark and had very dark attributes (spiritually). She had a doll that would freak me out more than my unusual fear of dolls to start, anyways she went into the bathroom and I was sitting at the end of the bed and I looked behind me and there sat the "doll" at the head of the bed. I yelled at my GF " Beth, I told you not to have that doll out when I'm around!" I heard a thud against the wall and the doll somehow was laying on the floor below the thud I heard. 
 There was only 2 people in a small 1 bed hotel room and she was around the corner in BR. and the doll went from bed to wall and landed on floor !


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jul 2, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Every religion says you have a spirit. Just give a thought to how many religions there are in the world.


And everyone one of them is BULL... I have just as much faith as the faithful, that there is no god, nor a need for religion.

Religion says a lot of things...all of which are yet to be proven in any fashion as true. Blind faith, Blind People.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 2, 2011)

John Lennon once said " "As usual, there is a great woman behind every idiot." 


MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> And everyone one of them is BULL... I have just as much faith as the faithful, that there is no god, nor a need for religion.


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## Thundakat85 (Jul 2, 2011)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> And everyone one of them is BULL... I have just as much faith as the faithful, that there is no god, nor a need for religion.
> 
> Religion says a lot of things...all of which are yet to be proven in any fashion as true. Blind faith, Blind People.


 I agree to some extent. But only to the extent that I'm not exactly sure what to believe only because I was not around for any of what is told to be our history. However, that doesn't mean that any religion is wrong. The general consensus is that most people believe in a god of their liking, either what they've been brought up to know or the one that makes the most sense to them. I'll admit I'll be one of the first to apologize when I die and go to heaven and get rejected because I didn't believe. Again, it's not that don't necessarily believe in what the texts say, but how do you know the bible wasn't just some book that someone wrote centuries ago that was just supposed to be a story? I mean I can't sit here and say all religions are bull because, to each his own. I can't slam someone for their faith. Your faith is in a sense a matter of your opinion. Opinions are everyone's rights as a human being.


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## Heisenberg (Jul 2, 2011)

Thundakat85 said:


> I agree to some extent. But only to the extent that I'm not exactly sure what to believe only because I was not around for any of what is told to be our history. However, that doesn't mean that any religion is wrong. The general consensus is that most people believe in a god of their liking, either what they've been brought up to know or the one that makes the most sense to them. I'll admit I'll be one of the first to apologize when I die and go to heaven and get rejected because I didn't believe. Again, it's not that don't necessarily believe in what the texts say, but how do you know the bible wasn't just some book that someone wrote centuries ago that was just supposed to be a story? I mean I can't sit here and say all religions are bull because, to each his own. I can't slam someone for their faith. Your faith is in a sense a matter of your opinion. Opinions are everyone's rights as a human being.


"faith" is what we call it when we can't justify our belief with reason. When we have no real reason to believe in something, yet we do anyway, we call it faith as if it's something to be proud of. *Faith stops people from asking questions without providing any answers.* It is, in fact, ignorance. When someone says that are proud of their faith, they are saying "I am proud to believe despite having no reason to." How many of these people would take the same attitude towards a new drug. What if I gave you a drug that is supposed to make you feel great, and when you asked how it worked, I said "that is not for us to know", would you still take it, and in fact be proud to take it? Why is it okay to give a pass to religion when we don't do so to any other claims?

So how can faith be an opinion? An opinion requires information to be formed. Is ignorance ever an opinion, or is it the lack of one? When you say that you can not fault people for their faith, you are saying that you can not blame people for being satisfied with ignorance.


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jul 3, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> John Lennon once said " "As usual, there is a great woman behind every idiot."



WTF does this have to do with the statement I said. Who gives a flying poop about my women and her relevance to this topic of discussion. Focus through the ficus. 

Faith stops people from having the desire to ask questions about a subject full of holes. It turns the eyes away from what is true and what is deception! 

*Faith, in anything unjustified, is a weapon of mass destruction(history proves this. Especially considering faith in religion has caused more human deaths than anything else known to man),More so, in the event of the "faithful" being a mentally deficient person. 

Ever wonder why ever religion in the world forgets to mention anything about a bomb or nuclear disaster being the end of mankind. Also, why has every religion forgot to mention anything about these colossus animals called Dinosaurs?---Ringo Star ( here is a Beatles quote for ganjagirl )

Sooooo...If your provoking the idea or hinting that I am an idiot in comparison to you goldenganja, I would be glad to compare credits if you have any to prove yourself as not being a mentally inert and bankrupt idiot. For starters, I am a 2000 graduate of Cornell University. I graduated with a Master degree in Bio Chemistry. In 1996 I graduated from Brown University with a Bachelor of Science in Organic Science with a minor in US history. 

I am still pursuing a higher education. I am in my second year of studies for my Doctoral degree in Bio-Chemistry at Stanford. 

Maybe one day, with a great lesson in discipline and devotion to a better cause other than you and your phony religion could you accomplish similar feats. I assure all that I have never once had help from a "god" in accomplishing any of my educations.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 3, 2011)

WHOA LIL Felller~ My point was John Lennon was an atheist like a few of you in here. I just put the wrong quote up, lol not really.  I just thought I would get you wound up for fun... Faith I have, Faith keeps me moving forward, faith allows me to trusts in God. Faith is something that you must have in your soul, other wise there would be no challenge. When I was younger I would wonder how atheist thought. Well seems to me there are 2 (at least) in here and now I wonder no more. Has for your credits, well I am sure you are a smart person here on earth.


MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> WTF does this have to do with the statement I said. Who gives a flying poop about my women and her relevance to this topic of discussion. Focus through the ficus.
> 
> Faith stops people from having the desire to ask questions about a subject full of holes. It turns the eyes away from what is true and what is deception!
> 
> ...


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jul 3, 2011)

I have just as much faith as you....Except mine is placed in the "there is no god" tun.  Have a great one "little fellow"...wtf is that????


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## PeacefulKid1992 (Jul 4, 2011)

borntoshine said:


> Just wanting to peoples opinions on this subject cause I don't know if I do.


Yeah I believe in them beacuse they're real.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 4, 2011)

GoldenGanja13 said:


> Faith is something that you must have in your soul, other wise there would be no challenge.


 What's that?


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jul 4, 2011)

What if you believe you have no soul? Are you saying one would not face challenges in life?? What if this "soul-less person" had no arms and legs.....or perhaps was blind, deaf, and mentally deficient? What if the person believe in a soul, but not faith, and had no arms and legs .......

Dearest Golden Ganja....open your eyes! You seem to think that because you have this big bright soul filled with faith that any option other than is non valid. In order for your "faith" to have any prudence you have to give the "faith-less" just as much prudence. I would ask that you stop a formulation of the "faith-ful" being a better choice than the "faith-less".....till next time...see ya l8r lil fellow


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jul 6, 2011)

Then if u have no soul,what is the core source of awareness as a human being, what i mean by awareness is not by the 5 senses.the actual awareness of observing your senses for what they are, comes from somewhere deeper than the cognitive thought of sentience, some would call it the subconscious but the problem with that is the subconscious only records your awareness of each day, yet it dosent bring to light in the moment.Basically what is it within that obsereves behind all other awareness if it is not a "soul"or ghost what have you.If u were only a moving breathing organism and purely nothing more in any way, then ask yourself what would be the point of being able to think to yourself and conceptualize at all?Or is it all just some immaculate happenstance?Think about it.
Just a rambling of my own thinking.Not meant to be in anyway imposing on anyones beleifs or non beleifs.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 7, 2011)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> what would be the point


There wouldn't be one. Also, Farming creativity.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 7, 2011)

This was a good one ~ http://science.discovery.com/videos/through-the-wormhole-life-after-death/ also this one, watched it last night. next showing Jul 08, 5:00 am
(60 minutes)
New research is discovering that thoughts can fly across space and that we all may be part of a global consciousness. Scientifically, a sixth sense is entirely possible.


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## guy incognito (Jul 7, 2011)

Is discovering as in it's still in the process of being discovered, and is not yet discovered? Couldn't that be said about everything? Currently still in progress of discovering bigfoot.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 7, 2011)

As they have something considered 'circumstantial evidence'. It doesn't prove anything other than that what we know about the laws of the universe break down when we approach cosmos of physical law so vastly different than our own yet so fundamentally constructive of such that the old adage 'Truth is often stranger than fiction" develops new, mind boggling implications.


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## GoldenGanja13 (Jul 7, 2011)

Watch the program then decide.


guy incognito said:


> Is discovering as in it's still in the process of being discovered, and is not yet discovered? Couldn't that be said about everything? Currently still in progress of discovering bigfoot.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 7, 2011)

Hey! It's Morgan Freeman, oh shi-


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 7, 2011)

oh and btw. Soul=Sole=Singularity 


[video=youtube;vX1CvW38cHA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX1CvW38cHA[/video]


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## MixedMelodyMindBender (Jul 7, 2011)

Dislexicmidget2021 said:


> Then if u have no soul,what is the core source of awareness as a human being, what i mean by awareness is not by the 5 senses.the actual awareness of observing your senses for what they are, comes from somewhere deeper than the cognitive thought of sentience, some would call it the subconscious but the problem with that is the subconscious only records your awareness of each day, yet it dosent bring to light in the moment.Basically what is it within that obsereves behind all other awareness if it is not a "soul"or ghost what have you.If u were only a moving breathing organism and purely nothing more in any way, then ask yourself what would be the point of being able to think to yourself and conceptualize at all?Or is it all just some immaculate happenstance?Think about it.
> Just a rambling of my own thinking.Not meant to be in anyway imposing on anyones beleifs or non beleifs.


Well for starters all sources of HUMAN awareness start in the CONSCIENCE. With or without faith is irregardless. A "soul" is a creation of religion and blind faith. It is not, in any fashion, a concrete, or only reason why one may have awareness. When we "think about it" we realize that all great cognitive thoughts about the subconscious have nothing to do with a "soul" rather a human brain that has creativity and a imagination. Your conscience observes and records the happenings of everyday life. It is no different for our " awareness" or these "sub senses" that are far greater than our humanly senses and are literally nothing more than our figment of imaginations. 

Peace--Stay Green


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 8, 2011)

MixedMelodyMindBender said:


> Well for starters all sources of HUMAN awareness start in the CONSCIENCE. With or without faith is irregardless. A &quot;soul&quot; is a creation of religion and blind faith.


 This isn't true. It's an innate awareness of the nature of reqality as we experience it. However:


> It is not, in any fashion, a concrete, or only reason why one may have awareness.


 I concur, weather or not you really do have a soul doesn't mean it means a damn thing. Especially not whatever some televangelist or psyhchic hotline says it does.


> ...great cognitive thoughts about the subconscious have nothing to do with a &quot;soul&quot; rather a human brain that has creativity and a imagination.


 Or...it's the same damn thing.


> Your conscience observes and records the happenings of everyday life. It is no different for our &quot; awareness&quot; or these &quot;sub senses&quot; that are far greater than our humanly senses and are literally nothing more than our figment of imaginations.
> 
> Peace--Stay Green


Doesn't mean they're wrong. It just means that these references are in dreamspeak.


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## Dislexicmidget2021 (Jul 8, 2011)

I can agree with the fact that the religious especially christians/televangelists tend to be naive when it comes to actuality and real truth there in, due to the innately misleading nature of their "faith" and the way they have been touted to perceive life itself....So the source of consciousness is just one great imagining after another being only what the brain imagines and there is nothing more?Surely as a heart beats without u thinking about it or telling it to do so, or that you breathe without summoning an effort to draw in a breath, yes both of which are naturaly contolled by the brain, point being is that you do not volunterily make them function they automatically just do,same can be said for imagination, except you can control some portion of what you imagine and introspectively create, but observation of the subtle and unsubtle still goes on even if you dont try to make the mind to do so. the source of awareness isnt just mere imaginings of the self aware mind,Why do particular images appear in only certain individuals minds, beyond the circumstance of their lives? I am not insinuating that it is only because u have a soul/ghost or anything I am stating that the most subtle cues of the mind reveals more about the individuals source awareness than just cognitive contemplations of moments/images captured.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 8, 2011)

No, it is systematic misinterpretation, editing in order to maintain a threshold for survival. Conservative values about family structure and behaviour were at one time critical to survival. Things change it's hard to explain that to people when their understanding of the world around them is bound by social structure's behaviour in it's own form.

The fucked up part is that when you learn to translate the dreamspeak and actually understand the real messages being conveyed and the force they exert to shape reality and society rather than taking words at ace value one must observe as a third part the story, information, instruction being transmitted regardless of where people's personal drama lays the blame and then how blame and shame themselves form the fundamental switches of social configuration.

How the de-humanizing of sexual activity by our leaders as though we are so perfectly inhuman ourselves that we become subject to the whims of an information guild that can push people overboard with the public revelation of humanityh and abusive swat to remind the public of their shame and servility.


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## olylifter420 (Jul 8, 2011)

they have been proven on ghost hunters and ghost adventures


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 8, 2011)

well that settles it right there.


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## euthanatos93420 (Jul 9, 2011)

Isn't it kind of ironic that if sex were truly free then you could pay for it.


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