# Ph of runoff in soil grow



## MDEVA (Jul 10, 2012)

Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in. But what does the Ph of your runoff really tell you during a normal feeding or watering? I did a plain water last time, and just to kill my curiosity, I tested the runoff. The water I put in was 6.4, and my runoff was 5.5- does that indicate a problem or is it perfectly normal? I was guessing that my ruin off would have a higher Ph, but had nothing to base that on... It was simply a guess, and obviously a bad one. If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers.


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## Drampire (Jul 10, 2012)

Not so sure about PH. Mine always seems to come out around 5.5 with roots organic putting 6.3-6.7 in from veg to bloom. I just pay more attention to the ph going in, and ppm coming out to see if I need to flush.


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## Deuce&Reg (Jul 10, 2012)

MDEVA said:


> Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in. But what does the Ph of your runoff really tell you during a normal feeding or watering? I did a plain water last time, and just to kill my curiosity, I tested the runoff. The water I put in was 6.4, and my runoff was 5.5- does that indicate a problem or is it perfectly normal? I was guessing that my ruin off would have a higher Ph, but had nothing to base that on... It was simply a guess, and obviously a bad one. If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers.


yes it is important to know your run off ph. there is a reason why your ph is coming out almost a full 1.0 lower than its goin in. soil is too acidic. testing your runoff is just about the easiest way to test your soil ph. but the main question is how do your plants look? are they showing a ph problem? or any problem at all or do they look healthy? dolomite lime is what you should ammend your soil with to bring up the ph. it has a neutral ph. considering its like $10 i believe for a 40lb bag cost isnt an issue and it will last forever. i have ran into same issue with roots organic and after top dressing with the dolomite it eventually climbed its way back up. easiest solution for you tho man, go coco lol. it doesnt have its own ph its neutral like the dolomite meaning the only thing your plant gets is what you feed it and it eliminates the whole soil ph issue. i switched and never looked back....lol 
have fun and be safe!

deuces


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## nastynate420 (Jul 10, 2012)

Ive NEVER had a reason to check runoff in soil!


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## greenlikemoney (Jul 10, 2012)

Checking runoff pH is alot like staring into the toilet bowl after a good dump. It's not really indicative of what you ate. Pay attention to what goes in, not what comes out. And like the toilet, a good flushing every now and then seems to help.


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## MDEVA (Jul 11, 2012)

Well, I've received two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT answers. Doesn't seem to be a middle ground on the issue given the responses I've received thus far. I just tested runoff again tonight... The Ph going in was 6.3, the Ph coming out was 5.3. My plants don't seen to be showing any Ph related issues, or any issues for that matter. I do however think that Duece&Reg has a valid argument for saying runoff is important to check, but would like to hear more opinions ifanyone would like to help out. I wish I had some time to do proper research on the issue. If someone has a link to an article on the subject post it in this thread!


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## MDEVA (Jul 11, 2012)

Well holy Shit Batman! It took me all of 30 second to find this link. This video makes a very good point about why the Ph SHOULD drop about
3/4 - 1 whole point when u test the runoff. I don't know what Sieve&Reg background is like, but this video was posted by the"medical marijuana academy" whoever the hell they are. Oh, I know thus is off topic, but I read an incredible thread on here about "main-lining"... I thought it was referring to shooting up so I almost didn't read it. You guys should check it out. Just search main lining on RIU.


VIDEO REGARDING THE PH OF RUNOFF IN SOIL. http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?desktop_uri=/watch?v=8lBYuGlvRNA&v=8lBYuGlvRNA&gl=US


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## MDEVA (Jul 11, 2012)

http://www.kindgreenbuds.com/marijuana-grow-guide/measuring-ph-of-soil-runoff.html

That article kind of acknowledges Duece&Reg's point. Basically to some it up, it says to test just the first few drops of runoff $ out should have dropped about half a point. If it goes beyond that, soil is too acidic, and line or other supplement needs to be added to adjust Ph level of soil. I guess going by that logic, it's safe to assume if your runoff is higher than what u put in, you should add something to liter Ph of soil?


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## greenlikemoney (Jul 11, 2012)

Ok, let's examine this. ( I'm assuming you are growing in pots BTW ).

You have plants, growing in soil, in pots. When the plants become dry and need feeding or watering, look at the situation closely. The soil has contracted away from the pot.
Then you water/feed. The soil starts absorbing BUT, before it expands to meet the pot, you have runoff that has quickly went from top of soil to side of pot to bottom of pot to out the weep holes. 

Now, what exactly does that runoff tell you?

IMHO, nothing. If your plants are healthy, why worry about something like that.

HOWEVER, I do think giving a thorough flushing twice during the cycle is a smart thing to do because you can get unwanted buildup of salts. Again, just my opinion.


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## MDEVA (Jul 12, 2012)

I think the PH of your runoff HAS to tell you SOMETHING, I'm just still trying to find the right answer. Both of the sources above make great points, but they differ in their opinions. One says 1/2 point drop is ok, the other says up to a whole point difference is normal. I am going to do more research when I have time so I can try to find a more concrete answer. 

@ Greenlikemoney - if the runoff "quickly went from top of soil to side of pot to bottom of pot to out the weep holes*" *then what makes the PH change so much? Test your runoff PH and see if yours does too. I would almost bet that it does. I think it's pretty logical to believe that if the soil has some salt buildup, or is overly acidic, when you pour water through it the Ph would change as it comes out the bottom. But everyones soil has fertilizer in it. So how much change is ok? What if it went from 6.5 to 4.0 - would you still not worry? Maybe your plants aren't showing a defficiency, but perhaps they COULD grow better if the Ph of your soil were adjusted slightly? Would it be worth it to check the runoff Ph then? I still don't know the answer... just cause for debate. If you end up doing any research on the issue and find something that might be useful, post it up. I would love to read it.


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## l8lDANKl8l (Jul 16, 2012)

MDEVA said:


> Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in. But what does the Ph of your runoff really tell you during a normal feeding or watering? I did a plain water last time, and just to kill my curiosity, I tested the runoff. The water I put in was 6.4, and my runoff was 5.5- does that indicate a problem or is it perfectly normal? I was guessing that my ruin off would have a higher Ph, but had nothing to base that on... It was simply a guess, and obviously a bad one. If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers.




You need to add dolomitic lime for a natural ph adjustment. Most all GOOD ORGANIC soils have this. Like my local nursery mix and the happy frog mix i blend together.

Run off is 6.5 all day after i add a ton of worm and bat poo, and other stuff. 

Heres my soil mix; im using liquid fertilizers though. Its called the G.O. (general organics) box from General Hydroponics. They are all organic; all of them except for processed squid(doesnt make tent stink) are vegan too so its all organic for sure which makes the smell absolutely amazing. Im in veg and i can tell you right now what each plant will be by the smell; i cant wait to smell the flowers mmm 

Coolest part about this mix is its soooo hard to burn plants. Im growing some very good strains(blue cheese,lemon kush, blueberry, etc) but all bag seed mixed up so not sure whats what and im feeding all of them every 5 days with VIGOROUS growth and NO burn signs whatsoever. This setup is very easy, had very good results(smell and growth) and on top of that its the cheapest stuff when comparing price to return benefits. 

Hope this helps you out
*

2 parts local nursery mix(canadian sphagnum peat, gypsum, dolomitic limestone and perlite)
1 part happy frog potting soil (contents and %'s should be able to be found online)
1/2 part earthworm castings ("wiggle worm" soil builder)
1/2 part Jamaican Bat guano 
Also add a little extra chunky perlite to ensure the roots have something sturdy to hold onto


​
​

*


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## T.H.Cammo (Jul 16, 2012)

I think the writing's on th wall! Not only is it common to see noobie questions (like this one) here in the Advanced forum. But now clueless noobies are also giving thier (absolutely wrong) advice here as well. You'd think that they would be smart enough to keep thier mouthes shut if they didn't have the proper knowledge - but no they go ahead and say whatever comes to mind. Unless the Mods do something to get RIU back on track it might just be time to think about moving on down the road! I've seen quite a few discontented posts lately.


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## DrGreener (Jul 17, 2012)

First off you here people mention Flushing, and or watering, till you get run off. Is this really good ????? How do you test runoff etc, flushing my plants will rid my buds from the snap crackle and pop from nutrients inside it,

Flushing should be a last resort in any case when to flush , over fertilizing your plant causes you to flush your medium , reading your plant is KEY. Excessive salt build up in your medium all nutrients in time crystallize into some form of Salt , learn feeding schedules and amounts to add So plant can absorb 99 percent of the nutrients your giving it 

Watering plant so you get runoff, we need to understand a few things going on under soil and our root system when watering this way we actually take away some crucial elements needed for roots most importantly Oxygen why do you here the craze for Air pots just that holes all around plant to allow better oxygen to the root zone when watering and drenching your soil it compacts and believe it or not it takes away the oxygen thus slowing overall growth .
so keep that in mind next time you water its better to water less more frequently then its to drench your pot 

Testing runoff: and knowing whats going on in your soil your going to need a Ph tester and PPM meter , catch tray 
to accurately test your run off you need to flush your medium with 4 - 8 times your pot size lets lets start 
break up your soil making sure theres no direct open areas where water will pour right out 
now slowly start pouring water once you notice it coming out first initial runoff is discarded you want the middle of your flush more or less keep catching runoff testing ph / ppm 
you will notice if you got low ph - your ppm will be high as ph comes back into range your ppm will drop flush till your back in PH range thats about it but remember now that soils drenched plant is going into slow growth period till it balances back 
more or less osmosis but thats another subject lol

PS: hope this helps


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## dank smoker420 (Jul 17, 2012)

if you are trying to find out the soil ph i would not test the run-off water it can be an inaccurate way of testing. get a soil probe. there about 15-20 dollars. and will tell you the exact ph of the soil.


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## l8lDANKl8l (Jul 17, 2012)

T.H.Cammo said:


> I think the writing's on th wall! Not only is it common to see noobie questions (like this one) here in the Advanced forum. But now clueless noobies are also giving thier (absolutely wrong) advice here as well. You'd think that they would be smart enough to keep thier mouthes shut if they didn't have the proper knowledge - but no they go ahead and say whatever comes to mind. Unless the Mods do something to get RIU back on track it might just be time to think about moving on down the road! I've seen quite a few discontented posts lately.



theres nothing wrong with anyone expressing anything. If they are wrong and they keep their mouth shut how can anyone ever tell them otherwise? i think all input offered from anyone is worth SOMETHING. whether it be that you learn what to do or what NOT to do, etc.


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## Haydoon (Jul 18, 2012)

T.H.Cammo said:


> I think the writing's on th wall! Not only is it common to see noobie questions (like this one) here in the Advanced forum. But now clueless noobies are also giving thier (absolutely wrong) advice here as well. You'd think that they would be smart enough to keep thier mouthes shut if they didn't have the proper knowledge - but no they go ahead and say whatever comes to mind. Unless the Mods do something to get RIU back on track it might just be time to think about moving on down the road! I've seen quite a few discontented posts lately.


So what was your answer then? I'd love to hear it as it must be correct and as well thought out and delivered as DrGreener. Cant wait


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## greenlikemoney (Jul 18, 2012)

@ Greenlikemoney - if the runoff "quickly went from top of soil to side of pot to bottom of pot to out the weep holes*" *then what makes the PH change so much? Test your runoff PH and see if yours does too. I would almost bet that it does. I think it's pretty logical to believe that if the soil has some salt buildup, or is overly acidic, when you pour water through it the Ph would change as it comes out the bottom. But everyones soil has fertilizer in it. So how much change is ok? What if it went from 6.5 to 4.0 - would you still not worry? Maybe your plants aren't showing a defficiency, but perhaps they COULD grow better if the Ph of your soil were adjusted slightly? Would it be worth it to check the runoff Ph then? I still don't know the answer... just cause for debate. If you end up doing any research on the issue and find something that might be useful, post it up. I would love to read it.[/QUOTE]

I would be foolish to dispute your post, but for me it's simple. Giving your plants solutions that are properly Ph'd and then flushing once or twice during the cycle is enough. 

Thats just me, everyone should do whatever they feel they need to do to maximize their plants health.


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## Haydoon (Jul 20, 2012)

Like your style greenlikemoney


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## greenlikemoney (Jul 20, 2012)

Thanks Hay.....I just don't see a need to complicate growing a weed, especially if the person growing is growing small and for personal use. I've seen people spend thousands on set-ups, equipment, zillions of nutes and plant enhancers etc etc. They most likely will never break even on their investment. To me that seems foolish. It's one thing to care about your plants and want to maximize your yields and quality. It's a whole different scenario when the stress of growing a weed overshadows the joy of growing that same weed.

that's just my opinion


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## MDEVA (Aug 2, 2012)

WOW. It's been a while since I checked on this one. I thought this part of one of my posts had pretty much summed up the reason that I ever put this thread out in the 1st place - "If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers." GOD DAMN why does T.H.Cocksucker always have to prove he's so fucking superior to ANYONE who asks a question? Maybe this isn't the forum for me. YES I'm only growing a couple of plants for personal use - but for some reason I didn't realize that made me the biggest fucking lowlife "noob" the internet had ever seen. I joined this site so I could take advantage of info provided by people who have been doing this a lot longer and more successfully than myself. I didn't come on here to argue with a bunch of people who have God Complexes. Here's a fucking suggestion - if a thread, or a particular post, bothers you so much you feel the need to shit all over a person who's simply searching for information, and playing devils advocate in order to have something better explained, then do the world a favor and go fuck yourself to death. 

Yes - I'm on what I consider my 1st actual grow. That's why I've read damn near every "sticky" I could find, and spent hours looking at different grow room setups, and browsed reviews on products I'm using. My plan all along for this first grow was to stick to the basics. I haven't done anything other than to feed and water my plants, monitor temp & humidity, control the light schedule. I have paid special attention each time I feed to stay within Ph ranges reccommended for soil, and PPM appropriate for the stage she is at. I don't know what even prompted me to check the Ph of my run-off. I guess I had the pen sitting next to me while I was watering and became curious. I tried looking the answer up myself. And after getting so much conflicting information from various sites I decided to pose the question on this forum. Maybe it would help some of the crybabies on here if I say sorry.... so open your ears and put on your glasses T.H.Cum-guzzler "I'm SORRY for having a question so absurd it would actually make you consider taking your condescending remarks and leaving R.I.U. for good."

@ Dr. Greener - Thank you for your response. I appreciate the time you took to add constructive feedback. So in the future when I water, it's not necessary to keep going until I see a little bit of water in the saucer underneath? I usually rake around the top 1/4" or so of soil, and then start pouring very slowly pausing ever so often to give the water/nutrients time to moisten the soil and then continue pouring until I see the first small amount of water in my tray. Usually there is approx 1/4"-1/2" water in the bottom after everything drains thru that has to be dumped. The whole process takes me maybe 20 minutes or so. I didn't know this was an unhealthy practice. I really am thankful for the advice. 

@ Greenlikemoney - I get great personal enjoyment out of growing my "small personal amount." You're right though - I WON'T EVER break even on my "investment." Maybe that's because I didn't see getting into growing an "investment" in the first place. I'm not growing to save money. I'm not growing to make money. I have no plans to sell anything I grow to recoup the funds spent on materials. This is purely a hobby for me. I hope it's ok with you that I still care how my plants turn out though. 

I still don't see anything wrong with the question I asked. I put it in the section of RIU where I believed I could get the most informed responses. I thought maybe this was one of those things that should be checked periodically to ensure my soil was healthy and didn't have any Ph related issues. After reading such negative comments, I'm glad it's nearly harvest time for me because I would hate to think of another question that might upset the likes of T.H.Cunt.


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## DrGreener (Aug 2, 2012)

hey bud IMO water less more frequently


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## Bigby (Nov 18, 2012)

greenlikemoney said:


> HOWEVER, I do think giving a thorough flushing twice during the cycle is a smart thing to do because you can get unwanted buildup of salts. Again, just my opinion.


I too have been researching similar issues to those raised in this thread. One thing I discovered is that when using organic nutrients (certainly the biobiz range) there are NO salts present, meaning there are none to build up. Thought I'd share as it feels relevant to this thread.


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## WyoGrow (Nov 18, 2012)

DrGreener said:


> First off you here people mention Flushing, and or watering, till you get run off. Is this really good ????? How do you test runoff etc, flushing my plants will rid my buds from the snap crackle and pop from nutrients inside it,
> 
> Flushing should be a last resort in any case when to flush , over fertilizing your plant causes you to flush your medium , reading your plant is KEY. Excessive salt build up in your medium all nutrients in time crystallize into some form of Salt , learn feeding schedules and amounts to add So plant can absorb 99 percent of the nutrients your giving it
> 
> ...


Your take on watering and it depriving the root of oxygen is almost completely contrary to everything I have read, been taught and/or experienced myself. Now soil compaction facilitated by watering can and will smother roots. But that is in poorly structured high clay soils. And in this case it smothers the roots by not allowing the water to pass through the soil at a rate that will draw fresh air in behind it as it descends through the soil. Good growing mediums generally have good enough structure with components like perlite and sand to prevent heavy soil compaction. Soil drenching to the point of runoff is about the only way to get good air turnover in large planting containers. Not to mention prevents dry pockets in the growing medium that encourages salt buildup that can ultimately damage roots growing neat the dry area int he medium. Good soil structure is key though. If you have poorly structured, highly compactable soil then I agree. A large one time watering is harmful because it will compact the soil and not run off, becoming stagnant.


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## Panda NYC (Nov 13, 2014)

The runoff water is the final PH of the water absorbed by your plant. A lot of people find it less problematic because many cannabis plants have the capacity to grow between PH of 4.5 to 8.5 - this does not mean the plant is at its best. The best PH of runoff water should be between 5.6 to 6.


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## hydroMD (Nov 13, 2014)

greenlikemoney said:


> @ Greenlikemoney - if the runoff "quickly went from top of soil to side of pot to bottom of pot to out the weep holes*" *then what makes the PH change so much? Test your runoff PH and see if yours does too. I would almost bet that it does. I think it's pretty logical to believe that if the soil has some salt buildup, or is overly acidic, when you pour water through it the Ph would change as it comes out the bottom. But everyones soil has fertilizer in it. So how much change is ok? What if it went from 6.5 to 4.0 - would you still not worry? Maybe your plants aren't showing a defficiency, but perhaps they COULD grow better if the Ph of your soil were adjusted slightly? Would it be worth it to check the runoff Ph then? I still don't know the answer... just cause for debate. If you end up doing any research on the issue and find something that might be useful, post it up. I would love to read it.


I would be foolish to dispute your post, but for me it's simple. Giving your plants solutions that are properly Ph'd and then flushing once or twice during the cycle is enough.

Thats just me, everyone should do whatever they feel they need to do to maximize their plants health.[/QUOTE]


If your watering fast enough to send water cascading down the sides of your pot your doing it wrong!!!

Soak the top layer of soil, leaving it sit for 10 min, then water. Soil will absorb the water instead of draining down the sides.

Also, if your plant has a problem then check your runoff and adjust a little. If things look fine then your ph isn't swinging fast enough to negatively affect the plant. 

To say measuring runoff is useless is ridiculous. Plenty of info to be gathered to help isolate defeciencies


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## hydroMD (Nov 13, 2014)

DrGreener said:


> First off you here people mention Flushing, and or watering, till you get run off. Is this really good ????? How do you test runoff etc, flushing my plants will rid my buds from the snap crackle and pop from nutrients inside it,
> 
> Flushing should be a last resort in any case when to flush , over fertilizing your plant causes you to flush your medium , reading your plant is KEY. Excessive salt build up in your medium all nutrients in time crystallize into some form of Salt , learn feeding schedules and amounts to add So plant can absorb 99 percent of the nutrients your giving it
> 
> ...




Lol.... ok


First off, if you do not have runoff you need to cut your ppm being added in half. Second, 4-8 times pot size for flushing?!?!?!?! Way overkill. 

3x pot size is all ya need with 10-20% nute mix. (Adding low ppms helps break down accumilated salts, like using oil based products to clean oil based stains) 

Also... testing your runoff when adding 8x your container size gives you ZERO info... only a washed out reading. The first 10ml-30ml runoffper gallon container size is what you want to test. ( 5 gal pot = 50-150 ml) give your pot a small pre soak to get the top layer of soil wet before u try to test to make sure your water is running through your soil.


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## hydroMD (Nov 13, 2014)

MDEVA said:


> Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in. But what does the Ph of your runoff really tell you during a normal feeding or watering? I did a plain water last time, and just to kill my curiosity, I tested the runoff. The water I put in was 6.4, and my runoff was 5.5- does that indicate a problem or is it perfectly normal? I was guessing that my ruin off would have a higher Ph, but had nothing to base that on... It was simply a guess, and obviously a bad one. If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers.


Roots organics will be low after watering and should slowly creep back up as it dries. If you start seeing defeciencies then adjust your ph a few points and wait a week to see results


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## Panda NYC (Nov 13, 2014)

Also I like to add some more insights, in case a lot of people go around and try to change the PH of their soil when it isn't necessary.

First of, no reason to change the soil when runoff water PH is at 5.5 - it's a very good PH level. You only need to be alerted when the runoff water PH is less than 5 or higher than 7.5.

Also if you are using organic fertilizers, the runoff water PH level matters less, because the nutrients are in a more complex form of compounds. The plant must decompose them before the using them during photosynthesis and respiration - therefore the level of charged ions will modified during the process of decomposition (usually to a mild and more plant-friendly level).

Now, have you wondered why we recommend to water at PH of 5.6 to 6.0 for hydroponic growing and at PH of 6.2 to 6.5 for soil? You guess it right, because in a hydroponic environment, the PH level of the water will not change much after watering. The pH of pure water is related to the relative number of hydrogen and hydroxyl ions. If water has a higher proportion of hydrogen ions, it is acidic and has a pH less than 7. If it has a higher number of hydroxyl ions, then it is alkaline and has a pH of greater than 7. But water doesn't naturally exist without other mineral ions being present. In a soil environment, there are many free uncharged elements around, so they will take up the number of hydrogen or hydroxyl ions to form new chemical compounds - and these new compounds may be helpful or harmful to the plant depending on the original chemical compounds.

When then original chemical compounds are simple compounds - usually found in non-organic nutrients like "GH bloom," etc, the PH level of runoff water represent an overall "helpfulness" of the new compounds absorbed by the plant. Therefore a PH level of 5.6 to 6.0 is optimal to the plant.

That being said, PH level does not represent everything. You can have a very harmful environment while the PH level is optimal, while you can also have a very helpful environment while the PH level is very acidic or alkaline. BUT, if you want to take less risk, it's good to keep the PH level at optimal.


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## Panda NYC (Nov 13, 2014)

Finally, the run-off water's PH level might not represent the overall PH level of the water being absorbed by the plant. This is because many chemical compounds will be flushed to the bottom of the pot after watering, therefore forming a particularly strong acidic or alkaline environment. The plant might be absorbing perfectly PH balanced water from other part of the soil in the pot, while the run-off water shows sign of significant acidic or alkaline level.


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## Pattahabi (Nov 14, 2014)

Jesus... Reading plant runoff tells you nothing! 

:: shakes head ::

P-


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## Zzyphr (Nov 15, 2014)

@MDEVA
Ran across this old thread while searching this exact question. In my case, the plant is showing signs of distress. I decided to check the outgoing and it was horribly low. Extreme measures are begining to show progress. For me, checking the outflow pH let you know what the plant is taking from the soil and nutrients administered. So if you have a baseline early, then you can get a coarse understanding if the plant needs more nutrients, not less - as well as maintaining soil pH.
One negative outcome is the quicker destruction of your pH sensor, but such are the costs of a wonderful hobby.

@ Dr. Greener
Voice of reason and respect. Thank you.


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## cannakis (Nov 16, 2014)

greenlikemoney said:


> Checking runoff pH is alot like staring into the toilet bowl after a good dump. It's not really indicative of what you ate. Pay attention to what goes in, not what comes out. And like the toilet, a good flushing every now and then seems to help.


That's not necessarily true... Because different characteristics of your bowel movements Do indicate too little or too much of certain nutrients... And you can definitely see that fake yellow corn.


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## cannakis (Nov 16, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Jesus... Reading plant runoff tells you nothing!
> 
> :: shakes head ::
> 
> P-


How can you say that? There is definitely Something to be said about the runoff, it can tell certain things, its not like you are testing something completely different, it still pertains to that specific plant and pot.


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## Nullis (Nov 16, 2014)

It tells you more than nothing but less than everything, which for most intents and purposes happens to be just more than enough.

By which I mean it certainly can be interpreted as providing some clue that things aren't wildly out of whack. Provided that you water slowly, know the pH of the water source (ideally its near neutral), and discard the first oz or two of the runoff.


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## cannakis (Nov 16, 2014)

Nullis said:


> It tells you more than nothing but less than everything, which for most intents and purposes happens to be just more than enough.
> 
> By which I mean it certainly can be interpreted as providing some clue that things aren't wildly out of whack. Provided that you water slowly, know the pH of the water source (ideally its near neutral), and discard the first oz or two of the runoff.


exactly


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## GrNAppLeQcKSteP (Mar 14, 2015)

MDEVA said:


> Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in.
> 
> Aright so peep this shitz... i made the mistake of NOT checking my run off ph and almost lost my biggest momma.. u want the ph going in to be the same coming out.. the problems won't show at first but acidic soil will ruin your crop.. I've had to flush my momma 3 times.. fully .. had done a partial flush like 3 gal to see what would happen , and it instantaneously showed bounce back, so a few days later and did a 9 gal flush, yer supposed to flush 3 time the volume of the pot.. .. if the ph drops alot after putting in nutes to runoff.. flush, .. nothing wrong with flushing the shit outta her.. got a shake the bottles of water to help oxiginate and cleanse and feed all at the same time, black strap mollasses will assist the rizosphere in the uptake of nutes..and keeps good bacteria in the soil also.. maintain a nice warm soil temp, water with warm water.. a little cooler than hand temp.. check ph every time u water, water to 20% runoff . If u don't it will build up and become acidic which will lead to lockout and the loss of your crop.. ph is very important.. o agree that if it looks fine it probably is.. but how closely are u inspecting? What's hunidity? I went to a mix of fox farm happy frog and ocean Forrest. . It's a soil less Peet moss and earthworm casting perlite and vermiculite .. pre Nuted... but u must check ph bro.. must check everything .. always. if u give her an inch she will take a mile .. in both directions but u gotta be dedicated. . If u feel it, it's probly real.. get her done bro u will be fine. Ps. U must check yer ph.. and get away from "dirt"use spikes media.. makes a world of difference .





MDEVA said:


> Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in. But what does the Ph of your runoff really tell you during a normal feeding or watering? I did a plain water last time, and just to kill my curiosity, I tested the runoff. The water I put in was 6.4, and my runoff was 5.5- does that indicate a problem or is it perfectly normal? I was guessing that my ruin off would have a higher Ph, but had nothing to base that on... It was simply a guess, and obviously a bad one. If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers.


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## Rrog (Mar 14, 2015)

Firstly, adding "nutes," regardless of the label immediately puts the whole natural plant / microbe relationship into question. 

Secondly, if the aforementioned relationship is allowed to happen, the plant and microbes determine the soil pH, regardless of your "pH balancing" the water. Measuring pH can be fun, but not necessary.

If someone's bottle-feeding plants, and using some sorta soil as a grow medium, then maybe there would be value in measuring pH. This is sort of a hybrid soil / hydro thing. No idea what's going on in there


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 16, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Jesus... Reading plant runoff tells you nothing!
> 
> :: shakes head ::
> 
> P-


thank you!!!
ANNNNND


cannakis said:


> How can you say that? There is definitely Something to be said about the runoff, it can tell certain things, its not like you are testing something completely different, it still pertains to that specific plant and pot.


No.
If you are into flushing, salts, ppms, and PH, you should check out the whole growing with chemicals thing.
if you have even 50% of the grasp on organics you won't need a ph tester at all.
And flushing?
I won't even dignify that one with a response.
might as well be buying superthrive and carb boosters to go with your 0-50-50 bloom ferts


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## cannakis (Mar 18, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> thank you!!!
> ANNNNND
> 
> No.
> ...


Haha did I even say flushing? Again I have to disagree that pH does matter... But also agree that I Should Have Fucking Listened! Haha but I have learned more than I ever thought from said foolishness.! 

Speaking of... I'm losing girls left and right because I top them to clone the seed stock and they have like No leaves except 4fans and the nodes, and I water too much sometimes thinking I didn't, and kill it! And my clones are taking forever!!!

Haha honestly I think it was is due to my "pH"ing the water which fresh rain water by adding ACV and I think I should have left it alone! Man I'm a fool.!. I always think I can reinvent the wheel, and want Everyone to know "my" opinion.!


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 18, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Haha did I even say flushing? Again I have to disagree that pH does matter... But also agree that I Should Have Fucking Listened! Haha but I have learned more than I ever thought from said foolishness.!
> 
> Speaking of... I'm losing girls left and right because I top them to clone the seed stock and they have like No leaves except 4fans and the nodes, and I water too much sometimes thinking I didn't, and kill it! And my clones are taking forever!!!
> 
> Haha honestly I think it was is due to my "pH"ing the water which fresh rain water by adding ACV and I think I should have left it alone! Man I'm a fool.!. I always think I can reinvent the wheel, and want Everyone to know "my" opinion.!


ahhh man, gotta love ya brother.
I don't know what to say man


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## cannakis (May 18, 2016)

So pH runoff Does matter. Spent hours yesterday testing Every type of soil. And each medium gave the appropriate results.
Garden soil 6.7pH & 279ppm,
Cow Manure 7.3pH & 257ppm,
Hot super soil 4.7pH & 2,800ppm, 
ProMix 6.3 pH & 365ppm,
and 4:1 PM to HSS 5.2pH & 777-1,200ppm.

My tap water going in is 9.0pH & 201ppm. So there is Definitely something to be said of run off even in "organics".

Though I must say FOLLOW DIRECTIONS! Don't listen to me listen to Pattanhabi and Greasemonkey and Hyroot these guys know their shit and follow the rules.

I'm mixing about 3:1 PM:HSS and my girls looks great! That's as far as I will go. Spreading the rest of my HSS into the garden and waiting a While and Couple runs before I "amend" again.


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## Lost frost (Jul 2, 2016)

MDEVA said:


> Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in. But what does the Ph of your runoff really tell you during a normal feeding or watering? I did a plain water last time, and just to kill my curiosity, I tested the runoff. The water I put in was 6.4, and my runoff was 5.5- does that indicate a problem or is it perfectly normal? I was guessing that my ruin off would have a higher Ph, but had nothing to base that on... It was simply a guess, and obviously a bad one. If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers.





MDEVA said:


> Is there any good reason to test the Ph of your runoff in a soil grow? I know it's good to check when u flush to make sure it's the same coming out as it was going in. But what does the Ph of your runoff really tell you during a normal feeding or watering? I did a plain water last time, and just to kill my curiosity, I tested the runoff. The water I put in was 6.4, and my runoff was 5.5- does that indicate a problem or is it perfectly normal? I was guessing that my ruin off would have a higher Ph, but had nothing to base that on... It was simply a guess, and obviously a bad one. If anyone could take the time to explain this for me I would really appreciate it. I put it in advanced section because I figured you Guys would be the ones with most factual based answers.


I've jus exp the same issue I watered with ph at 6.8 and run off came out at 5.8 so perhaps that explains the issues I'm having, from how everything looks it appears I have a lockout in the soil it's to acidic, the leafs appear to have a phosphorus def?? If I am watering at ph 6.8 and run off is around 1.0 off wouldn't that suggest that the soils ph is locking out my nutrients and giving the ladies these issues? I could never figure out what it was til I checked the run off I mean that's the most logical answer I can come up with is the soil ph won't even suck up the nutrients (locking)?? Idk man I'm right there with u other than the ladies are actually showing signs of deficiencies


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## Jozikins (Jul 5, 2016)

Do a slurry test to determine soil ph after feeding, the run off tells you little due to cation exchange.


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## Dr. Who (Jul 6, 2016)

"Run off pH?" in the organic section!

ROTFLMAO


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## Picasso510 (Sep 29, 2017)

greenlikemoney said:


> Ok, let's examine this. ( I'm assuming you are growing in pots BTW ).
> 
> You have plants, growing in soil, in pots. When the plants become dry and need feeding or watering, look at the situation closely. The soil has contracted away from the pot.
> Then you water/feed. The soil starts absorbing BUT, before it expands to meet the pot, you have runoff that has quickly went from top of soil to side of pot to bottom of pot to out the weep holes.
> ...


Simply because ph does play a huge factor in nutrient absorption hence nutrient deficiencies (or what seems like it) but really is just the lockout of a specific nutrient due to lack of right ph. And some cases are more severe then others depending on mediums and strains. But I do agree with you about READING your plants overall it's ideal to stay on point as much as possible to reduce the chances of running into any problems down the road why do you think the best and most professional growers tend to be meticulous when dealing with their babies yes cannabis plants are very resilient but you don't want them to just live you want them to THRIVE


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## Picasso510 (Sep 29, 2017)

Also I'd like to add FLUSHING can do alot more harm then good, if anyone does not know the difference between flushing and "leeching" then I'd recommend looking it up. Someone pointed this out to me and honestly it makes alot of sense.


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## John Edward Cossack (Jan 31, 2018)

I think I may be able to offer something to this conversation. For what it's worth. Both points are correct. You really don't NEED to check pH runoff if there isn't an issue. The reason for this is if you have a healthy soil in terms of microbes within the soil breaking down organic material...which turns acidic if you have a microbe problem.

A proactive gardner always checks pH runoff, as well as keeping an eye on PPM. (But PPM is not as important, and thats a topic for another day.) Checking your pH runoff everytime and logging it will not only help you never have a pH issue but be able to see issues coming down the road ahead of time.

This is my procedure:

I log every runoff's pH with a spreadsheet. As well as the pH of the nutrient solution going in.

Now you have to follow me down the logic I have come to for this reason. If 6.5pH nutrient solution is going into the soil and coming out as 6.8 then many would see this as on the higher end but still okay. However if you had 6.8 water and added an equal amount of 6.5 water to it, what do you think you would get? Something in the middle of 6.5 and 6.8. You definitely wouldn't get 6.8 out. So this has to mean that the soil is higher than 6.8, right?

There is a formula that calculates what the pH of the soil is based on what goes in and what comes out. Then it suggest what the next feeding's pH should be to bring the soil slowly back to 6.5. The formula I made doesn't make a full adjustment to 6.5, it slowly arrives back to 6.5 so as not to shock the plant by changing the pH of the current microbes are living in too fast, killing large percentage of your microbial life.


It's also extremely important you are collecting the right pH. This is only achieved by making sure the same volume of liquid is just enough to saturate the soil fully. This will give you a pH around what the half way point between what was in and what came out. You can never get a fully accurate reading of a soil pH, but it will give you a good indication of where it's at.

I know that this works because it always creeps back to 6.5 and is stable once reached. I know it's probably not necessary but it is a full proof plan for finding issues and never having lockout due to pH issues. Never. It's hard to argue with results. 

I also don't just grow for personal use, so I have a lot more riding on the outcome of my crops.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 31, 2018)

lol this thread is hilarious. how the times have changed!

welcome to the forum @John Edward Cossack


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## Sapphyre (Feb 2, 2018)

Glad to find this thread.
Hope I don't get burned for asking a question about why it sometimes goes the other way lol
So, when you are growing in organic soil, and using organic feed. Making sure ph is consistent going in @ 6.3-6.5, not over feeding, and watering when (and with what) your girls are asking for....
When you have a plant that is not looking happy, and you test your runoff PH and the levels have significantly increased, as have the PPm, what does this mean?
6.5 to 7.9, and 900 to 1800 in this case. Generally this plant gets feed then water and has been doing great w that rotation until a few weeks ago. 

It is the second time I've seen it, and the first time, I was able to slowly roll down the ph and bring the plant back- but I want to understand why it is happening in the first place?

I am looking for a more broad brush stroke sort of idea- the other ladies are looking fabulous but there is obviously something that I'm missing?

Do I just need to stop being lazy and get my teas brewing?


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Feb 2, 2018)

In many soils even building your own there are buffers which allows the plant to break down food and absorb it I don’t bother ph run off only when I feed I correct ph for nutes ph ec and ppm are more preferred in hydro systems or coco soil is more forgiving


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## John Edward Cossack (Feb 2, 2018)

Sapphyre said:


> Glad to find this thread.
> Hope I don't get burned for asking a question about why it sometimes goes the other way lol
> So, when you are growing in organic soil, and using organic feed. Making sure ph is consistent going in @ 6.3-6.5, not over feeding, and watering when (and with what) your girls are asking for....
> When you have a plant that is not looking happy, and you test your runoff PH and the levels have significantly increased, as have the PPm, what does this mean?
> ...


Okay so if your feed is going in at 6.5 and coming out 7.9 then that means 7.9 is the middle point. Meaning to calculate for your actual pH soil the equation would be 

x = (7.9 - 6.5) + 7.9. 

"x" is the actual pH of your soil before watering it. 
"7.9" is the out
"6.5" is the in and we subtract "7.9"(out) from "6.5"(in) to get the difference. Then depending on whether or not the runoff came out higher than the input or lower would determine if we add the difference to the runoff or subtract it. 

If your runoff came out more acidic (for instance: 6.5 in and 5.0 out) the equation would be x = (6.5 - 5.0) - 5.0. 

The idea is to think of the runoff pH as the middle point between the water in and the soil. So that if you put 6.5 water into 3.5 soil your runoff will be 5.0. 

I ignore PPM's unless they are super high from the rest of the plants in the same run and they look ill. Usually this is a lockout due to high pH though. PPM's are also important if they are dropping. It means your ladies are running out of food. Other than those to things I don't worry about PPM's. 

One of the growers I talk to out by me says that his PPM's came out 12K one time and it was the best yield he ever had. How much of that is true idk, but I do know that not everything that works in someone else's garden will work in yours. I just know this formula works in my garden. 

The pH of the next feeding runs off of this formula. It grabs the pH of the soil (that was our "x") and then calculates the soil pH's opposite so that the two mixed equal 6.5 and then divides that difference by half, so as to gradually adjust the pH. If it's something absurd like 3.5; I'll be more aggressive


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## ShLUbY (Feb 2, 2018)

do yourselves a favor, buy a bluelab pH *soil pen* and get an accurate reading and stop playing the chasing game and figure out how to *permanently* solve the solution. you guys are doing too much work. Believe me. get a pH buffer for your medium and you'll stop having to guess and change your values all the time. it's pretty simple soil science.

dolomite lime in peat based mix 1/4-1/3 cup per cubic foot on the initial mix will hold pH just below 7 for an entire flower cycle when mixed in at transplant (each watering at 6.0-6.5 will dissolve a little dolomite and buffer the pH... no more guessing). the companies don't put enough lime into the peat mix to last an entire flower cycle because it all dissolves because of delivering an acidic watering. if you read too high, CaS (gyspum) will lower your pH (sulfur is an acidifier, again the buffering thing). scratch it into the surface and it will start to work with successive waterings. 

Now i don't grow with bottles anymore, but when i did, having the soil pH pen was a great investment. and learning about soil buffers and soil science was also of great value. When i compared run off pH, vs what the pen read for soil pH, the numbers were not the same, as John has keenly observed just as i did with the runoff. By adding buffers to my medium, i stopped chasing, and confidently maintained steady pH through the whole grow and my yields skyrocketed.

Hell I even check my living soils pH now and again just for funzies. but not having to measure out nutes from bottles, check ph's, worry about all the other stuff that comes from bottle feeding..... that was the best investment of a lifetime! now its just plain RO water from start to finish 

even 2 weeks ago, i noticed some yellowish new growth in the tops of my plants i just put in the no-tills that have run a few cycles. suspected Fe def. checked the soil pH.... low and behold it's above 7 (Fe insoluble above 7ph), threw in some gypsum and one week later, plants are super healthy because the pH dropped and Fe was available again. 

i'm not saying that johns methods do not work, but they are too much work. and the result is crazy pH swings in the root zone if your pH is out of whack until a balance is reached (if it ever reaches a balance).

good luck guys and happy growing


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## John Edward Cossack (Feb 4, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> do yourselves a favor, buy a bluelab pH *soil pen* and get an accurate reading and stop playing the chasing game and figure out how to *permanently* solve the solution. you guys are doing too much work. Believe me. get a pH buffer for your medium and you'll stop having to guess and change your values all the time. it's pretty simple soil science.
> 
> dolomite lime in peat based mix 1/4-1/3 cup per cubic foot on the initial mix will hold pH just below 7 for an entire flower cycle when mixed in at transplant (each watering at 6.0-6.5 will dissolve a little dolomite and buffer the pH... no more guessing). the companies don't put enough lime into the peat mix to last an entire flower cycle because it all dissolves because of delivering an acidic watering. if you read too high, CaS (gyspum) will lower your pH (sulfur is an acidifier, again the buffering thing). scratch it into the surface and it will start to work with successive waterings.
> 
> ...


I agree. This method isn't for your average grower or noobie. It's too complicated for the results that you do get. Like you said, watering with pH 6.5 every time or 6.3 will work just fine for everyone. 

However it's different for me. I am a computer programmer so all of this is done automatically by a raspberry pi computer. The nutes are mixed, adjusted and the pH is tested logged and then drained. All calculations are automatic. Furthermore I have found a 10% increase in yield depending on which pH my girls prefer best. I can also tailor availability of certain nutrients at a certain pH.

It also wouldn't be too hard for someone to create a spreadsheet and simply type in the runoff every time. It's especially useful when you have an actual pH issue. A lot of times people wonder what pH to water at to get the pH back under control. Well this formula does all the calculations for you. Like many "tricks" in the cannabis world this isn't a useful tool for plants without issues. This is a useful tool to see those issues coming and be able to nip it at the bud. 

I too use pH buffers in my soil but I use those more as an insurance policy for rogue soil pH. Like I said, I tailor each strain of mine to a specific pH at certain times during my grow. This was something I could easily do with hydro but for my soil gals I needed to devise a proper equation for A) accurately finding the soil pH. & B) accurately adjusting it. 

As far as soil pH meters go, I personally think they are absolutely worthless. There are many forums on the topic of how off those meters are and how unreliable of a method it is to test the soil in this manner so I won't go into detail. Although blue labs makes a better version on the market. It's still just lipstick on a pig to me.


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## Picasso510 (Feb 10, 2018)

John Edward Cossack said:


> I think I may be able to offer something to this conversation. For what it's worth. Both points are correct. You really don't NEED to check pH runoff if there isn't an issue. The reason for this is if you have a healthy soil in terms of microbes within the soil breaking down organic material...which turns acidic if you have a microbe problem.
> 
> A proactive gardner always checks pH runoff, as well as keeping an eye on PPM. (But PPM is not as important, and thats a topic for another day.) Checking your pH runoff everytime and logging it will not only help you never have a pH issue but be able to see issues coming down the road ahead of time.
> 
> ...


Rep+


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## Cookiescrusher (Oct 27, 2019)

Deuce&Reg said:


> yes it is important to know your run off ph. there is a reason why your ph is coming out almost a full 1.0 lower than its goin in. soil is too acidic. testing your runoff is just about the easiest way to test your soil ph. but the main question is how do your plants look? are they showing a ph problem? or any problem at all or do they look healthy? dolomite lime is what you should ammend your soil with to bring up the ph. it has a neutral ph. considering its like $10 i believe for a 40lb bag cost isnt an issue and it will last forever. i have ran into same issue with roots organic and after top dressing with the dolomite it eventually climbed its way back up. easiest solution for you tho man, go coco lol. it doesnt have its own ph its neutral like the dolomite meaning the only thing your plant gets is what you feed it and it eliminates the whole soil ph issue. i switched and never looked back....lol
> have fun and be safe!
> 
> deuces


How do you prepare your coco before potting? What size pots and how many transplants? Thinking of doing the switch


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## Alien88 (Nov 30, 2019)

Deuce&Reg said:


> yes it is important to know your run off ph. there is a reason why your ph is coming out almost a full 1.0 lower than its goin in. soil is too acidic. testing your runoff is just about the easiest way to test your soil ph. but the main question is how do your plants look? are they showing a ph problem? or any problem at all or do they look healthy? dolomite lime is what you should ammend your soil with to bring up the ph. it has a neutral ph. considering its like $10 i believe for a 40lb bag cost isnt an issue and it will last forever. i have ran into same issue with roots organic and after top dressing with the dolomite it eventually climbed its way back up. easiest solution for you tho man, go coco lol. it doesnt have its own ph its neutral like the dolomite meaning the only thing your plant gets is what you feed it and it eliminates the whole soil ph issue. i switched and never looked back....lol
> have fun and be safe!
> 
> deuces


Appreciate that great answer. I was thinking the same thing. I grow in soil now and am having the same problem. I ordered some dolimite lime. I will definitely be going coco and mix in some perlite. I am going to go dry organics too. Take care


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## Jypsy Dog (Nov 30, 2019)

Alien88 said:


> Appreciate that great answer. I was thinking the same thing. I grow in soil now and am having the same problem. I ordered some dolimite lime. I will definitely be going coco and mix in some perlite. I am going to go dry organics too. Take care


If your serious about going Coco, This is how to do it right. Good Luck!








Cannabis Grow Guide - Coco For Cannabis - Science and Practice


Cannabis grow guide: articles, tutorials, DIY projects & more! Dedicated to the science and practice of growing cannabis in coco perlite and other media.




www.cocoforcannabis.com


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## Alien88 (Nov 30, 2019)

Jypsy Dog said:


> If your serious about going Coco, This is how to do it right. Good Luck!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I appreciate it. I'm definitely serious. I have been doing alot of research and countless videos. Growing in coco seems ideal for me. I already monitor my ph and ppm's and i have a good understanding to what i will need to do, and it sounds fun. Appreciate it again


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## Jypsy Dog (Nov 30, 2019)

Alien88 said:


> I appreciate it. I'm definitely serious. I have been doing alot of research and countless videos. Growing in coco seems ideal for me. I already monitor my ph and ppm's and i have a good understanding to what i will need to do, and it sounds fun. Appreciate it again


It removes a lot of the guesswork... That and good genetics.


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## Alien88 (Nov 30, 2019)

Jypsy Dog said:


> It removes a lot of the guesswork... That and good genetics.


Exactly. You know exactly what your plant is getting. It seems less stressful haha. Thanks for sharing that link. Alot of great information.


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## Nico2016 (Apr 23, 2022)

John Edward Cossack said:


> Okay so if your feed is going in at 6.5 and coming out 7.9 then that means 7.9 is the middle point. Meaning to calculate for your actual pH soil the equation would be
> 
> x = (7.9 - 6.5) + 7.9.
> 
> ...


I’m trying to grow in a peat and perlite mix with bio tabs, used white shark microbes, plus a worm tea every week. And the start of the 3rd week started getting deficiencies again. I say again as in the past I’ve tried in this mix with bio bizz. And twice got deficiency at the same time. I was thinking as I was using the bio tabs, and microbes I wouldn’t need to worry about my ph in the pot. But my ph going into the pot has been between 6.2-6.5, not tested runoff at all. Do you have any ideas why this is happening and if I should test my runoff. Total noob.


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