# Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread



## headtreep (Mar 21, 2013)

After several years and countless dollars wasted on chemical nutes and never recycling my soil I have learned the true way of gardening thanks to a great thread on ICMag.

*ALL CREDIT TO:* https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964 *Living organic soil from start through recycling*. *Special thanks to MM, CC, LD, Gas, and the other organic terrorists.*

*Cann, Rrog, and anyone else who would like to add or correct any info here please let me know. Let's keep this positive and spread the word to the masses!!! 
*
*Borrowed from eyecmag *https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=257899&page=4*:

Hey folks (specifically newbs to ROLS),

I have read this entire thread as closely as my amateur skills have allowed me, and I have created a very terse compilation of notes, based exclusively from this thread. Meaning anything said can be sourced somewhere in this thread. There is such an extensive array of valuable information here I feel it warrants a summary of key terms/ideas, mainly for any newbs who have joined the boat late and who would like to source information quickly. If one person finds value in them other than myself, then it's worth posting

*Disclaimer*

These are my notes. As such, please take them with a grain of salt. Rather than rely on the specific claims I make in my notes or the figures I use, I recommend using them as an index of terms that can and should be searched for to help you locate specific topics quickly and efficiently. Also, these notes by no means cover all of the topics discussed. Unfortunately, they only touch on topics that are of specific interest to me. For example, you will find nothing regarding breeding, of which there is plenty discussed in this thread. I haven't tested many of these suggestions, and I haven't tested most on a long term basis. Remember, these notes are coming from a newb!

Without further ado...

ROLS Notes


-Kelp has so many trace elements that it improve plants immune system against disease, insects, weather. Foliar is the most effective. Foliar roots during transplant. Growth max or growth plus are good brands. Foliar in the morning. Apply 1/2-3/4 cup of kelp meal to 1 c.f. of potting soil everyrecycle. Do not use liquid kelp as these products have far less benefits than raw kelp meal.

-Alfalfa has many trace minerals as well as n-p-k-Ca-mg, sugars, starches, protein, fiber and 16 amino acids. Use on top of soil sprinkling lightly or 1 cup per 1 c.f. soil mix or 1 tbs per gallon ACT. Excellent foliar feed. Use alfalfa seed tea early in flower to reduce internodal spacing.

-Aloe juice - simply crush the leaves and collect the juice. Aloe foliar @ 2 tbls per gallon water once every 3 days. Unprocessed Aloe must use within 20 minutes due to decomposition. Supplement with worm castings and casting teas. Great for rooting clones. Great for PM resistance along with neem, kelp and alfalfa. Excellent in rooting clones just add 2 oz per gallon water. 2 tbls per gallon foliar spray. Apply 1-3 times a week. Soil drench and foliar are identical.

Vermicompost
-use coffee beans for N. ph is about 6.9 for used grounds.
-leaves and straw for bedding.
-add grit like sand or limestone or eggshells for worm digestion @ 1% total mass
-red wriggler can live 0-30 degrees celsius. Optimal temps 15-25
-up to 20% worm biomass
-use citrus peels and onions with caution

-Fish bone meal - replace every other recycle for 5 cycles, then add every 3-4 cycles. Use 1-3 cups per 6 gallons depending on other high N sources such as alfalfa. High in phosphorous.

-Sphagnum peat is not inert it is alive! Look specifically for sphagnum.Holds 20x water to weight. Aerates heavy clay soils. Speeds up composting. Decomposes slowly over several years as opposed to compost which completely decomposes after a year.

-Stinging nettles and comfrey are a powerful pesticide and fungicide. Dice and purée 2 cups of comfrey or stinging nettles and let sit in water for no more than 3 days. Foliar as well as soil drench.

-Rice hulls are a superior substitute for perlite. Perlite floats to the top of the pot. Also try lava rock.

-Leaf mold takes 6 months to a year to decompose. Speed the process up by throwing in high N stuff like compost, alfalfa meal. Use 2 quarts per cubic foot of soil. Great for moisture retention and aeration.

-Spider mites - control with neem foliar spray and rosemary oil spray. 10% rosemary oil to 90% water. -cardamom - grind 1/4 cup then place in hot water. Let cool. Go spray spider mites. Lavender tea. mite magnet - live Basel plants.

-Heat stress - use barley seed extract tea, same method as other enzyme seed teas.

-freshly rooted clones - couple days before transplanting add 1 tbs kelp meal , 2 tbs alfalfa meal, 1 gallon water bubble for 36-48 hrs for a boost in growth.

-Mineralization - azomite , gypsum (home depot) limestone and glacial rock @ 32 tbs per c.f. (total)Go to a landscape supply and load a bucket of all the rock u want! Try to go for volcanic rock dusts, as these contain silica.

-Thrips - ladybird larvae eat thrip larvae. Electric bug zapper. Bacteria called spinosad. Monterey garden insect w/ spinosad. Entrust 80w. Nematodes. Mums. Gerbera. Only foliar spray spinosad. Foliar with aloe and protekt. 1/4 aloe 2 tsp protekt per gallon solution. Know thrip life cycle.

-Cilantro pesticide- buy a bunch of organic cilantro. Place in food processor. Throw in 1 gallon of clearwater. Sit for 36 to 48 hours, no more. Strain. Add 1 cup of strained cilantro tea to 15 cups of water. Add quarter cup of Aloe Vera juice. 1 teaspoon pro-tekt. 30 minutes before lights out spray and soak everything. Leave ventilation on. Apply every four days for four applications. Use in conjunction with spinosad.

-Silica - use every watering and foliar spray up to harvest. Great pest and disease control. Protekt and agsil 16h are good brands. Agsil is greater value for your money. 148 grams agsil to 1 litre water = protekt. Silica is an emulsifier (i.e. use with neem oil)! 2 tsp protekt to 1 g water.

-Organic cloning gel - 1 g water, 2 tbs aloe Vera, 1.5 tbs Ful-power, 1.5 ts Protekt. Shake. Soak jiffy pucks for several hours. Use rooting product as well.

-Water retention - saponins. Horse chestnuts have a lot of saponins.

-Foliar - once a week, with something. Stop half way through flower. Always use Ful-Power to half harvest. Use Protekt till harvest.

-Neem - 1/4 cup per 1 cf every re ammend. Foliar-4 tsp per gallon. Emulsify with protekt. Ensure that water is at least 75 degrees fahrenheit when mixing final solution, otherwise it will clump - useless.

-Biochar. Hardwood charcoal. Smash to bits. Prevents yellowing via slow release of nutrients. Optional: place in compost pile. Allow up to 10% total soil volume. Cowboy charcoal from whole foods. Take bag of char, add 1/2 gallon EWC, 2-4 cups fish or guano or alfalfa or comfrey, soak a week in ACT, strain and add to soil.

-Enzyme tea -2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) The choice of seeds is non specific. Almost anything works. Soak for 12-18 hours in mason jar. Drain that water and throw away it&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. After a day or so once sprouted, add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for a 36-48 hour soak. Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water as soil drench. Observe 'praying' leaves. Chop seeds for worm food. Do not store these teas.

-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list. *

Let me kick this off with a little no till. I pulled a plant today cause it wasn't up to my standards. I have since replaced it with a fresh clone using the same pot. We will add to this as time goes on. 


*Turn on, tune in, drop out....*
































Vic's High


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## headtreep (Mar 21, 2013)

Some products I use:














I have switch to powered coconut since and powdered aloe 200x





Growth is insane when you foliar with aloe!!!


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

This was my very first crop using all these new products:


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

This is one of my current mixes I'm using. I still have some other mixes going as well with more ingredients but I truly believe that this is a great start for everyone that is very reasonably priced. I used to amend commerical soils until I got enlighten. 

Soil Base - Per Cubic Foot

33% Priemier Peat (brand name) I buy this for 9.99 at lowes 3cfu
33% Pumice/Perlite/Lava rock (I'm using perlite cause I have much on hand)
33% Combination of Compost and vermicompost.

*Note: Always use quality amendments and compost in your soil. Just like anything, you get what you put into it, or just like quality good food, fresh ingredients makes for a better end product.* *If you don't make your own compost or casting try to source some local. If you need a commercial product there are brands like Bu's Compost and a few other quality ones. *

Plants are top-dressed with 2" of vermicompost

Amendment Mix

1/2 cup Organic Neem or Karanja Meal
1/2 cup Organic Kelp Meal

Rock Dust Mix

4 cups Basalt & Glacial Rock Dust Mix

Lime Mix

1/2 cup Gypsum
1/2 cup Crab Meal


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

Organic Eye Candy:


































Hindu Blue, Vic's High, Blue Tara, Fire Alien Strawberry, White Lotus

Hindu Blue






Plushberry with a good example of mulch. Those are 2 plants in 7 gal vegged for 2 months. 


















I have never tasted such great buds in my life with potency and effect that's out of this world.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Mar 22, 2013)

Yeah vegging for two months did those girls justice fer sure! Nice pics all!i'm glad that instincually i have had hints of this technique and if id payed closer attention to a family memebers methods id of realized sooner. Good info for those not lazy!


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

Here is my pest prevention lined up which I rotate the different oils:







These are some clones I gathered up:



Note: You will see some powdered coconut, I don't use that for cloning wanted to point out an alternative to the liquid that am testing so far with great success.


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

*Botanicals :*
This was a post I found on icmag to share. All credit goes to the original author who wrote this post.
Source https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=254210 http://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346

The basic method of fermentation is simple enough, which is not to say anything goes. First you need a container made of a nonreactive material. A 50-gallon plastic garbage can works fine. You need to cover your container during fermentation, but not tightly, or it might explode! Either punch some holes in your garbage can lid or cover the can with a piece of burlap or other cloth. While you can use smaller containers, 50 gallons is an optimal homeowner-scale size that is big enough to help moderate temperature extremes during fermentation.An unheated garage or outbuilding is a good place to conduct the fermentation, the speed of which is temperature dependent. The higher the temperature--up to a point--the faster the fermentation.

The water you use is very important. The ideal source of water is rain, being free of calcareous minerals or additives such as chlorine which can retard or stop fermentation. If you must use hard well water, add a bit of vinegar to it to lower the pH. City water should be allowed to stand several days to allow the chlorine to evaporate before you use it for your extracts.

The duration of fermentation can range from a few days to a couple of weeks. When the mixture stops bubbling when you stir or otherwise move the contents, fermentation is complete. Check your brew daily.

It is imperative that you filter your extract. Doing so stops the fermentation from going too far, and also prevents globs of stuff from plugging up your sprayer or watering can when you apply the brew. Use a very fine strainer lined with cheesecloth, an old clean teeshirt, anything short of a coffee filter or other filter paper, which filters out too much.

Store your extract in stainless steel or plastic containers in a cool place, around 40-50 degrees F being ideal. French folks like to use 5-gallon plastic wine containers, appropriately enough. While a wine cellar is also an excellent place to store your extracts, make sure to label carefully!

Once you have your made your extract or infusion, you of course need to apply it. Most often, you spray it on, just as you would a conventional pesticide or foliar fertilizer, taking care to cover the undersides of leaves. But some remedies are applied as a soil drench. This is best accomplished with a good old-fashioned watering can.

Okay, now that you know the basics, here is the roster of beneficial plants and how to use them.



Wormwood (Artemisia absinthium) Perennial plant with silvery, aromatic foliage.
Action. Repellent, especially against cabbage butterflies and codling moth on apples during period of egg-laying. Fungicidal against rust on currants.
Fermented extract (2 lbs. of fresh plant material to 2.5 gallons water) Undiluted for rust on currants. Undiluted sprayed on soil to repel slugs. Diluted to 10% against codling moth and cabbage worm. Note: Do not throw detritus of fermentation on compost, as it will slow its breakdown.

Fernleaf yarrow (Achillea millefolium)
Perennial plant with ferny, silvery, aromatic foliage and white flowers.
Active ingredients: pro-azulene, a volatile oil; isovalerianic and salicylic acids (salicylic acid is aspirin, which is why a tea of this plant reduces pain and fever in humans.)
Action. Promotes compost breakdown; potentiates fungicides.
Cold maceration. 1 oz. of dried flowers in 1 quart of water; macerate 24 hours. Add to fungicide treatment, such as horsetail or tansy.

Garlic (Allium sativum)
Needs no explanation, except to say that garlic is perennial if left in place.
Active ingredients. Sulfur-containing compounds.
Action. Insecticide and fungicide.
Preparation. In decoction: chop 4 oz. peeled cloves and add to 1 quart water. Bring to boil, cover and remove from heat, infuse for one hour. Strain and use without diluting. Used as a soil drench, excellent to prevent damping off of seedlings. In oil maceration: Place 4 oz. of peeled cloves and 2 T. linseed oil in a mixer or blender and pulverize. Filter, washing the filtrate (and mixing in) 1 qt. rainwater. Store one week before using. Adding a bit of soap as a surfactant before spraying is useful. Effective against aphids and mites.
Note: This is a great use for spare garlic at the end of the winter storage season, which is beginning to sprout and taste unpalatable.

Cocklebur (Arctium lappa). Infamous biennial weed.
Active ingredients. Tanins, mucilage, resins, sulfate and potassium phosphate, calcium, and magnesium.
Action. Fungicide effective against mildew on potatoes.
Preparation. Use the whole plant before flowering. The root has the most active ingredients. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. fresh plant to 2.5 gal. of water. Attention: strong odor! Filter and dilute to 5% before spraying on potato foliage. Also, just pick the leaves and use them as a mulch on your potatoes.

Nasturtium (Trapaeolum majus). Flowering annual.
Active ingredients. Sulfur-containing compounds.
Action. Fungicidal against canker on tree fruits. Insectifuge against white fly (repellent).
Preparation. In infusion, 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 5 quarts of water. Boil water, add leaves, infuse like tea one hour. Use undiluted on fruit trees. Dilute to 30% to spray tomatoes against mildew.

Comfreys (Symphytum officinalis, S. x uplandicum). Flowering perennial.
Active ingredients. Allantoin, which stimulates cell multiplication. This is why allantoin is such an excellent ingredient for skin creams, especially for chapped skin.
Action.Comfrey is a powerful stimulator of all cell multiplication, e.g. growth. It stimulates microbial growth in the soil, and in compost, thus acting as an 'activator'. Comfrey stimulates seedling development as well as foliar growth.
Preparation. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. of fresh leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. As a soil drench, dilute to 20%; as a foliar fertilizer and seedling fertilizer, dilute to 5%.

Spurge (Euphorbia lathyris). Hardy perennial.
Active ingredient. Euphorbone.
Action. Repels moles and voles, but must be prepared and sprayed to be effective. Having the plant on your property does not suffice.
Preparation. In fermented extract, harvest the stems and leaves; the terminals have the most active ingredient, from April to October. Caution! The milky sap of this plant causes skin irritations! Wear long-cuffed gloves to protect your hands and arms. Use 2 lbs. fresh plant material per 2.5 gals. of water. Spray around cultivated areas.

Bracken fern and male fern. (Pteridium aquilinum, Dryopteris felix-mas). Perennial plant.
Action. Insecticide and insectifuge.
Active ingredients. Gallic and acetic acids; tannin; cyanogenic heterosides; potassium; aldehydes transformed to methaldehydes after fermentation.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs of fresh leaves to 2.5 gal. of water. May be fermented simultaneously with nettle or horsetail. Dilute to 10% before spraying. Effective against some pests of potato and grape, very effective against wooly aphid. Note: bracken fern is indigenous in many areas, especially in well-drained acid soils, and is often considered invasive, as it is rhizomatous.

Lavender (Lavandula angustifolia). Flowering perennial.
Active ingredients. Over 250 different compounds!
Action. Insectifuge, insecticide.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material per 2.5 gal. of water, dilute to 10% before using. For dried material, use 7 oz.
In simple infusion, use 4 oz. of fresh plant material in 1 qt. of water, or 2/3 oz. of dried plant material per quart.
Note: If you live in a cool climate, your lavender will be less potent than that grown in a hot climate. Double the quantities or use dried plant material from a southern source.


English Ivy (Hedera helix). Perennial vine.
Active ingredient. Heteroside which is liberated during fermentation.
Action. Insectifuge and insecticide against white fly, spider mites, and aphids.
Preparation. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. chopped leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. In observing fermentation, don't confuse the foam caused by the saponins in the leaves with the gas bubbles of fermentation. Dilute to 5% before spraying. Beekeepers in the 18th century rubbed their hands with ivy to protect themselves from bee stings. Caution! The extract is toxic and must be kept out of the reach of children. Also, many people are allergic to the sap of ivy and/or to the fine hairs on the reverse of the leaves. Wear gloves to protect yourself.

Lemon balm. (Melissa officinalis). Perennial aromatic culinary and medicinal herb.
Active ingredient. Many aromatic compounds.
Action. Insectifuge against aphids, mosquitos, white fly, and ants.
Preparation. In infusion, 2 oz. of fresh plant in 1 qt. of water. Allow to cool, filter, and spray without diluting. Note: Do not use on seedling beds as it can prevent germination of seedlings.

Peppermint. (Mentha piperita) Perennial aromatic culinary and medicinal herb.
Active ingredients. Many aromatic compounds.
Action. Insectifuge and insecticide against aphids and spider mites.
Preparation. In infusion, 4 oz. of fresh plant in 1 qt. of water. Allow to cool, filter, and spray undiluted.
In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant to 2.5 gal. of water. Ferments extremely fast. Dilute to 10% before using. Note: Impedes germination so don't use on seedling beds.

Stinging Nettle (Urtica dioica). Perennial weed.
Active ingredients. A cocktail of ingredients still poorly analyzed but including formic acid, as well as iron, nitrogen, and many trace minerals. Acts as an immunostimulant for plants.
Action. Strongly stimulant to both microbial and plant growth, thus a compost activator as well as fertiliser. Insectifuge and sometimes insecticide against aphids, mites, and other pests.
Preparation. Use of the whole plant before flowering. Studies have shown that including the roots adds a fungicidal action to the extract. In fermented extract (the famous purin d'ortie), 2 lbs. of fresh plant in 2.5 gal. of water, fermented for a few days only. Dilute to 20% before using as soil drench or foliar feed. Use full strength as a natural herbicide (it kills with 'fertilizer burn' because it is so rich). Soak bareroot plants for 30 minutes in the pure extract or for 12 hours in a 20% dilution before planting to stimulate rapid establishment and vigor.

The nettle reigns supreme among plants for fermentation in France. The fermented extract is sold commercially in garden centers, and clubs and associations of nettle fanatics exist throughout France. Needless to say perhaps, but wear gloves when handling nettles. It's not for nothing they're called 'stinging.'

Horsetail. (Equisetum arvense). Perennial plant and medicinal herb.
Active ingredients. Diverse alkaloids, nicotinic acid, silica.
Action. Insectifuge, preventive fungicide, plant tonic and growth stimulant.
Preparation. In decoction, boil 1 lb. of fresh plant with 5 qts. of water for 1 hour, allow to infuse 12 hours, filter and dilute to 20%.
In fermented extract, 1/2 lb. of dried plant in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 5% before using.
Horsetail, along with nettle and fern, form the Big Three among medicinal plants for plants, according to the French. I remember my Swiss grandmother gathering horsetail and drying it in pillowcases for use in astringent poultices.

Pyrethrum (Tanacetum cinerariifolium). Perennial.
Active ingredient. Pyrethrins.
Action. Insecticide against aphids, cabbage fly, whitefly, carrot fly, and others. Does not hurt bees.
Preparation. Harvest the flowers when open, and dry them. In infusion, use 1 oz. in 2 qts. of water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, use 3 oz. in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 20%. Spray after sundown or in very early morning.

Horseradish (Armoracia rusticana)
Perennial culinary herb.
Active ingredients. Sulfuric heteroside, glucosinolate.
Action. Fungicide against blackspot on cherries.
Preparation. In infusion, 12 oz. of fresh plant material (leaves and roots chopped) in 2 1/2 gal. of water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, 4 oz. of chopped root in 2.5 gal. of water. Use full strength on seedlings for damping off.

Rhubarb (Rheum rhaponticum).
Perennial potager plant.
Active ingredients. Oxalic acid as salt of calcium.
Action. Insectifuge against aphids, caterpillars, and other larvae. Repulsive to herbivores.
Preparation. In cold maceration, use 1 lb. of chopped leaves in 3 quarts of water; allow to soak 24 hours before filtering. Use full strength. This is a great way to use rhubarb leaves as you eat the stalks.

Rue (Ruta graveolens). Perennial herb.
Active ingredients. Tannins, heterosides, malic acid, glucosides, and others.
Action. Insecticide and repulsive.
Preparation. Harvest fresh leaves and stems before flowering. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water fermented for 10 days. Dilute to 20%. Repels mice, chipmunks, and other chewers. Spray against aphids.

Dockweed (Rumex obtusifolius). Perennial weed.
Active ingredients. Have not been studied.
Action. Fungicide against canker on apples and pears.
Preparation. In infusion, 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 5 qts. boiling water. Filter when cool, spray full strength on cankers. Treat young trees preventatively. Spring is best time.

Soapwort (Saponaria officinalis). Flowering perennial.
Active ingredients. Saponins.
Action. Insecticide, insectifuge.
Preparation. In infusion, 4 oz. fresh material in 1 qt. boiling water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water. Dilute to 10% before using.


Sage. (Salvia officinalis). Perennial herb.
Active ingredients. Monoterpenones, including thujone, camphor, and others, aldehydes, coumarin.
Action. Insectifuge, fungicide.
Preparation. In infusion for insectifuge, 4 oz. of fresh plant material in 1 qt. boiling water. Filter when cool and use full strength. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh leaves and terminals in 2.5 gal. of water, diluted to 10%, against mildew on potatoes.

Common Elderberry (Sambucus nigra). Large shrub to small tree.
Active ingredients. Sambucine.Action. Powerful repellant; fungicide.
Preparation. In decoction, 2 lbs. of leaves soaked for 24 hours in 2.5 gal. of water, then boiled for 30 minutes. Spray undiluted against aphids, beetles, caterpillars. In fermented extract, use 2 lbs. fresh leaves in 2.5 gal. of water. Use undiluted against shelf fungus infections on trees.

Tansy (Tanacetum vulgare). Perennial plant (invasive in sandy soils).
Active ingredients. Not studied.
Action. Insectifuge, insecticide, fungicide against rust and mildew.
Preparation. In fermented extract, 2 lbs. of fresh plant material in 2.5 gal. of water. Use nondiluted against cabbage fly. In infusion, 1 oz. of flowers in 1 qt. of boiling water. Filter when cool and spray undiluted against aphids, mildew, and rust. Caution: don't throw residues on compost as tansy inhibits its breakdown.

This season, why not experiment with this new (old) dimension of organic treatments? It's not only we humans who stand to benefit from medicinal herbs. The power of plants can come to the rescue of fellow plants as well!


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

*These babies were just sprayed with a mix of aloe, karaja oil, and protekt.*

Mixed 1 gram 200x aloe powder with 199 grams water

Took 1/4 cup of the aloe extract and added to a half gallon jar with filtered water, full.

Then I mixed 4 tsp karanja oil in a shot glass with 2 tsp. pro tekt until it emulsified and then added that to the half gallon.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Mar 22, 2013)

Awesome results dude! I just finished my first plant in reused no till, and I'll be damned it came out great. The coconut water is great, haven't been able to try the barley or aloe yet. This is the recipe I am using now: 


One Cup Alfalfa Meal
One Cup Fish Meal
One Cup Bone Meal
Homemade Shrimp Shell Meal
1/2 cup Kelp Meal
1 Cup Soft Rock Phosphate
One Bag Roots
One Bale Promix
One Bag Roots Coco 
One Bag Worm Castings
One Bag Compost (have my own started)
One Shovel Diverse Soil from outside
Maybe 2.5 gallons Biochar
Mix everything well.
Innoculate with some molasses, homemade lactobacillus, nematodes and BTI dunks.
Let sit 3-4 weeks and it is ready to go. I plant seeds and clone directly into this mix, yet with some minor topdressing it has the juice to take me to the end of flower no problem. Still have a ways to go but the results keep me motivated.


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

*Books to check out:*

 The New Organic Grower: A Master's Manual of Tools and Techniques for the Home and Market Gardener (A Gardener's Supply Book) 
The One-Straw Revolution: An Introduction to Natural Farming (New York Review Books Classics) 
Biological Farmer: A Complete Guide to the Sustainable & Profitable Biological System of Farming  Vermiculture Technology: Earthworms, Organic Wastes, and Environmental Management
 Hands-On Agronomy 
Environmentally&#8203; Friendly Pest Control

Seaweed & Plant Growth


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## Cann (Mar 22, 2013)

PERMACULTURE: A DESIGNERS MANUAL by BILL MOLLISON. I cannot emphasize this book enough. This thing is literally my bible. It is also available for free online, but it will hurt your eyes to read all 600 pages off a screen. I highly recommend picking up a hard copy. You will not regret it. 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/54165878/Permaculture-A-Designers-Manual-by-Bill-Millison

I got some pics for this thread...stay tuned


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## fattiemcnuggins (Mar 22, 2013)

I am wondering if I can just start getting my seaweed right from the lake?


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## Cann (Mar 22, 2013)

is it brown? cause thats the kind you want


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## fattiemcnuggins (Mar 22, 2013)

There's diff kinds but I know there is a brownish one that I see quite I bit of. Maybe I can find a pic.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Mar 22, 2013)

Great thread, thanks for sharing guys. +rep


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 22, 2013)

I will be learning much from this thread.....thank you!


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## Cann (Mar 22, 2013)

So even though this thread is about soil recycling, I figured I would show the process of soil building from scratch. I find "recycling" to be a silly term anyway, reamending makes more sense...regardless, the "recycling" process is simply adding amendments to a soil base - which also happens to be the second part of building a soil from scratch, so it all applies. Hope that makes sense. 

Building a soil from scratch is much cheaper and much more rewarding than buying premixed soil. Also the quality is incomparable. 

First off, we have to decide on a soil mix. There are countless mixes out there all claiming to be better than the next one...I prefer to go with a mix that I know is tried and true by a wise old coot. The mix is as follows

Base mix: 

1/3 *high quality* EWC or compost (the quality of this humus source cannot be stressed enough. this is by far the most important aspect of the soil. use poor humus and this will be a nightmare) 
1/3 sphagnum peat
1/3 aeration (pumice, rice hulls, lava rock, etc.)

Per cuft of base:

4-5 cups rock dust mix (4x glacial, 1x bentonite, 1x powdered oyster shell, 1x basalt dust) AFAIK the glacial and basalt are relatively interchangeable ..just use whatever is local (this goes for just about anything in ROLS...local is often best). 

1/2 cup neem meal and/or karanja meal
1/2 cup crab shell meal
1/2 cup kelp meal


Thats it...


if you want to get fancy with it you can add a few other things such as:


Gypsum: I use 1/2cup per cuft...calcium and sulfur. good to add if you don't have the highest quality EWC.

Biochar: up to 10% of the mix, remember to "activate" it first by soaking in EWC/fish hydrolysate or something for the carbon to absorb so it doesn't rob your soil of nutrients. I use about 1/2 cup per cuft, but could easily double that amount. 

Alfalfa meal: in the mix pictured I used 2 cups alfalfa meal for a 10cuft batch...you can use more if you want. it is very "hot", so be careful.

Fish meal: I had some leftover so I threw the last cup worth into the 10cuft batch


A note on humus: If you can't find any local worm farmers with castings, or folks with good compost, look for Bu's Blend Biodynamic by Malibu Compost. It is one of the best bagged products you will find, and has a great reputation with real gardeners. Bu's blend is what I used for this last batch...I would've used EWC but my local worm guy is out at the moment, and my bins are a month of two from being harvested 

A note on sphagnum: peat comes in compressed bricks that are usually around 3 cuft. once you open and expand the bricks they are around 5 cuft of material, so keep that in mind when measuring. Also, often times the peat is very dry and tends to have hydrophobic tendencies. This can make saturating your soil a pain. To combat this, you should rehydrate the peat *before *mixing it with the other components. Once it is moist (not wet), you can proceed like normal. 

Here we go:




Step 1: Humus + (hydrated) Peat + Aeration

Step 2: Mix thoroughly with hands and bare feet while humming a tune....

Now its time to add amendments. From this point on its basically the "recycling" process, although you wouldn't want to add nearly as many amendments during a "recycle". The soil you would be "recycling" would already contain many nutrients, whereas the current base mix we have just prepared only contains a small percentage of compost, and the rest is inert. Big difference in the amount of input needed to make a balanced soil. Anyways.....

Step 3: The rock dusts


Step 4: The meals

Step 5: Repeat Step 2..but more vigorously, and for a greater length of time, and humming a more intense tune. This is what you should end up with:



Fill up smartpots or garbage bins, water with an ACT or .25% molasses dilution in water, let sit for 4+ weeks. At that point you are ready to fill your no-till pots and start reaping the rewards! Or if you are a boss you can fill your no-till pots from the get-go, water them, throw some worms in the mix, and then let sit for 4 weeks and plant..that will give the soil a head start to develop microbe populations, fungal networks, etc. 

To show some results, at exactly 4 weeks I filled a 30 gallon smartpot with the pictured soil mix, and transplanted these ladies into it. They were a bit unhappy in their old pots (they had been living in roots 707 that i topdressed a bit to heavily with neem, crab, and kelp) and it is obvious from the pics that they are much happier now in their no-till home. These are 2 days apart, first one taken immediately after transplant. 



Lets see how many cycles I can get out of this baby...


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## Cann (Mar 22, 2013)

So you built a no-till soil, and now you're waiting 4+ weeks for it to finish aging. When the time comes, you want to be ready with ladies to plant straight into that dank soil! It's time to take some cuts. But the no-till ROLS dogma says no bottled gunk...so what do you do without almighty _Clonex_? The answer is surprisingly simple....and good for your skin too! 

Aloe. You can simply cut open a fresh aloe filet and rub your cannabis cutting on the goopy aloe gel, then stick the cutting in your media of choice (rockwool, rapidrooters, EWC/pumice, etc.). The saponins and salicylic acid in the aloe plant will provide a bunch of rooting hormones to your cuts, and the root growth will astound you. If you want to take it to the next level, you can follow this method:

(This is copied straight from my grow journal due to laziness on my part)

So for the sake of simplicity I'll start from a few weeks ago when I took cuts from my mothers _sans clonex_ (something I would've though was insane before). I was following a cloning method suggested by_ClackamasCootz_ which is as follows:

Mix 1 gal h2o with 1oz ful-power (fulvic acid), 2oz aloe, 1tsp potassium silicate. Soak your cuts in this mix for a few hours. Soak your rapidrooters (or another medium) in this mix for a few hours as well. When you get around to it, combine the plugs and cuts however you so choose and place them in your trays or whatever you use. Treat them like you would treat any other clone (mist/humidity, airflow, etc.) 10-14 days later you will have something that looks like this:

roots on roots on roots

This is what they look like a few days after being put into a "recycled" soil mix. During transplant I sprinkle the roots with mycorrhizae and once they are potted I water with aloe/fulpower/silica and give them an aloe foliar. 



These are by far the greenest/happiest clones I have EVER had. No transplant shock, no chlorosis, no wilting. Straight green and praying leaves the entire time. Needless to say I am never going to buy clonex again, and I will urge others to do the same. Next time I do this I am going to rub the stems inside of a fresh aloe filet right before the cuts go into rapidrooters - we'll see if it can get any better than this lol. I had to compost a bunch of cuts because I had too many! every single one rooted. 

Happy cloning!!!​


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

Very nice Cann!! Keep them coming.


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## Murfy (Mar 22, 2013)

kick ass-

thread bro!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 22, 2013)

Grown in soon to be Recycled Organic Living Soil, using these nonsense techniques.....
*....Aloe/Lactobacillus foilar spray and coconut water soil drenches....
*


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## Rising Moon (Mar 22, 2013)

This whole site is improving much to the thanks of all us geeks (especially Cann, Rrog and others)

Thanks for getting the ball rolling on real deal, DEEP organic practices, keep it up everyone!


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## headtreep (Mar 22, 2013)

It would be cool if they made this a sticky. Prob one of the most valuable imo.


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 22, 2013)

headtreep said:


> It would be cool if they made this a sticky. Prob one of the most valuable imo.


+1 ^ I couldnt agree more!

Sik thread,awesome information.Let me be the first to newb it up as I cant wait to go the next level.I mainly use plain old roots,4-5 months ago I made my first batch of subs super soil and so far am liking what I see and really love the ease of just adding water.I used roots as the base but am interested in making my own base to use as the recipe above.I have a red wiggler worm bin as well as a 30 gal compost tumbler that ive had a cpl years and make so so compost and ewc..and it looks nothing like I see in bags but you mention to use either ewc or compost.Arent these 2 totally different things and wouldnt it be better to have both if in fact they are?

The ewc I grow and buy in the bag are very tint,granular like and powdery where as compost is more meaty,chunky that contains many more things.Of courseI havent had the pleasure of inspecting many quality composts so im unsure.I also have a small bag of pure alaska humisoil which is yet another yummy creature that I use when making my aact's.Thanx again and awsome pix!


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## Kalyx (Mar 22, 2013)

Nice all. Much love for the info and organic ness! The higher organic minds here are changing the way I grow...


the burning question I have is why the synth silica product still? I understand its a great emulsifier but...?
is this needed, other actually organic options?

"organic is like pregnant, you either are or aren't". Synthetic silica isn't.


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## Rrog (Mar 23, 2013)

Coot was kind enough to reply to this question of Silica's organic orientation: 

http://www.nutri-tech.com.au/blog/2010/06/silica-the-hidden-cost-of-chemicals/ about silica

http://www.fngla.org/education-and-research/research/reports/75/finalreport.pdf more on Silica


Potassium silicate is found naturally, Basalt contains this mineral compound. The problem is, as usual, that the cost of extracting it is prohibitive.

USDA NOP (National Organic Program) has a general regulation known as 205.208(e) (link) which covers bio-pesticides and bio-fungicides including mineral compounds.

Chemical compounds are contained in a database known as Chemical Abstracts Service (CAS) which is part of the American Chemical Society. The listing for Synthetic Potassium Silicate is CAS # 1312-76-1

Under the general blanket regulation noted above, synthetic Potassium Silicate is approved with this stipulation:
Quote:
The silica used in the manufacture of potassium silicate must be sourced from naturally occuring sand. May be used if the requirements of 205.206(e) are met.
AgSil 16H from PQ Corporation was the product that brought about this ruling by USDA NOP whereas prior to that, synthetic sources were prohibited. Their application and final approval allowed if the restrictions were met.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 23, 2013)

Just use horsetail. It's like 68% silica.


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## Cann (Mar 23, 2013)

I have a bunch of horsetail growing in my front yard...its at the point right now where they are just little spears - they havent turned into the classic horse tail shape yet. Should I still use these, or should I wait?

Also rising moon, how do you incorporate horsetails into your silica regime? a.k.a. if I am trying to replicate the effects of adding Agsil every watering, how would I go about this with horsetail.

do you crush it and use the fresh juice? do you ferment it? topdress it? very curious here. 

enlighten us sir...i always hear you mention horsetail instead of pro-tekt, definitely interested in your methods


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## Rising Moon (Mar 23, 2013)

As for the horsetail...

I am currently using it in 2 different forms, a fermented form watered in, and the traditional brewed method, foliar sprayed.

The Biodynamic method is as follows from the Josephine Porter Institute:

"Fresh Tea Instructions:
Bring one ounce of horsetail herb to a boil in one quart of water. Allow to cool. Strain and dilute adding 2 gallons of water. Stir vigorously for 15 minutes. Apply using a fine mist spray to the foliar parts of targeted plants.

Fermented Tea Instructions:
Bring one unit of horsetail herb to boil in one gallon of water and simmer for one hour. Let cool and transfer to a crock or other storage container with a loose fitting lid. Store this in a cool place, e.g. basement, and allow to ferment 10 to 14 days, until the fermented tea has a strong sulphuric aroma. Strain the remaining herb particles out, fill the tea in a glass jug, and store it in a cool dark place until  ready to use. It can be stored 6 or more months without losing effectiveness.

To use, Add 1/2 gallon of fermented tea to 4 1/2 gallons water, stir vigerously for 20 minutes, and use to treat up to 1 1/2 acres. One unit of horsetail can thereby treat up to 3 acres with as powerful effect as can be achieved by the fresh tea recipe on only one acre. 

Ratio for diluting is one part fermented tea to 9 parts water. The fermented BD #508 most likely should be applied as a soil spray, whereas the fresh tea version is most likely the form to use as a foliar spray."


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## Rising Moon (Mar 23, 2013)

*Making your own Lime substitute with eggshells:
*
*Step one:*

Save your used eggshells in a container in the fridge.

*Step two:*

Once you have a decent amount, lay them out on a baking sheet, and "cook" @ 160 F, for a few hours...





*Step three:
*
Grind up the dried shells in a coffee grinder. (or mortar and pestle, thanks Mohican)



*Step four:*

Use in place of lime, provide your plants with TONS of calcium and other trace minerals.


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## Mohican (Mar 23, 2013)

Great procedure for eggshells! I have also tried soaking them in vinegar like in grade school to extract the Ca in a chelated form and using this as a liquid feed. I wonder if Phosphoric Acid would leach the Ca the same way as Acetic Acid?


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## headtreep (Mar 23, 2013)

This is great. I will be adding more soon. Work in progress!!!!!


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## Rising Moon (Mar 23, 2013)

No till veggie garden photos:

(these beds are built of raised earth, top-dressed annually with compost and rock dusts, and get a buckwheat green manure crop when I can squeeze it in, used mainly for short season veggies)


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## Kalyx (Mar 24, 2013)

So which organic purists are cool with synth silica so long as its precursor is natural sand?

Sounds like a loophole to use it because of cost prohibition etc, and just because a compound occurs naturally does not mean its bottled synthetic analog is legit to use in my organic garden. To those who use it, please state why it's still so important to your living organic crop?

...rising moon is making me hungry with all those pro-tekt free veggies growing under the sun! Danks for the detailed info on horsetail biodynamics =]


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## Cann (Mar 24, 2013)

Rising Moon...like a fucking boss....those pictures are fantastic. basket o' beans lookin real nice. 

bout to place my order from horizon...now! lol. inspirational to say the least


Kalyx - silica is important for my plants for all of the reasons that Rrog and many others have highlighted over and over again. do a test - water half your garden with potassium silicate every time (foliars too), and the other half without. tell me if you don't notice a difference in leaf size/texture, stem thickness/strength, etc. this is not to say that the same results couldn't be achieved with horsetail - i just don't have the time, energy, or really care enough to harvest all that horsetail and process it into a silica amendment. call me a non-purist, sure. i also use powdered aloe even though I live in the desert and can go out and harvest aloe...i just can't be filleting/blending aloe leaves every time I go to water...especially when I need enough water for 80 plants...its just unrealistic. if you want to go through all these efforts to be 100% pure in your ways, go for it. as far as i'm concerned, using "synthetic" silica doesn't affect the living soil in a negative way at all, the effect is only positive. you seem to be viewing it like potassium silicate is tainting your organic crop...why is this? what affect do you think it has on the soil or plants?


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## headtreep (Mar 24, 2013)

I made this little herbal tea a few days ago and I guess my Gogi OG really liked it.









Recipe: 
5 gal bucket with 4 gal h20
3 tsp tm-7
1/4 cup kelp
1/2 cup alfalfa 

Bubbled for 24 hours applied with aloe and coconut via drench.


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## headtreep (Mar 24, 2013)

I just wanted to add, if anyone has suggestions or think we are doing something wrong, please feel free to address in this thread. If I don't have the answer I will certainly try my best to find it. It would be cool to see this thread to be kind of an evolution of learning and working together.

Peace and love


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## headtreep (Mar 25, 2013)

Should be pulling some of these in the next 2 weeks and some sooner.






















Bloody Mary, Casey Jones, Hindu Blue, and Blue Tara


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 25, 2013)

Beautiful!!!!!!

been getting into this lately. Good job everyone

just curious, i have a 30 gallon smart pot with soil i used last years outdoor crop, its been sitting with no water other then rain every now and then. Is it ok to use? Is it true that fertilizers can get too potent if left dry? Or is this inly true for synthetics?, or micro heards died off from drought? 
Was planning on throwing it in compost now that i have space....


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## Mohican (Mar 25, 2013)

The mortar and pestle worked great! Especially after baking the shells first:

*

Eggshell:








Spinach and eggshell powder:









*


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## Cann (Mar 25, 2013)

I use my mortar and pestle all the time for gardening...

last night I ground up some mosquito dunks, neem/karanja cake, and crab meal (that shit is hard to grind!!!) for topdressing. been having a few gnats lately so I figure this will wipe em all out lol...a little Bt and neem to put em in their place...the crab meal's effects will kick in eventually once the chitinase enzymes are active


foreverfly - dig around in the pot and see if there are any worms/insects. what does it smell like? what was the soil that you used last year? i'd be inclined to topdress with like 4'' of EWC/compost, plant, and then topdress some neem/crab/kelp meal. got any pics of the soil?


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## headtreep (Mar 26, 2013)

Cann said:


> I use my mortar and pestle all the time for gardening...
> 
> last night I ground up some mosquito dunks, neem/karanja cake, and crab meal (that shit is hard to grind!!!) for topdressing. been having a few gnats lately so I figure this will wipe em all out lol...a little Bt and neem to put em in their place...the crab meal's effects will kick in eventually once the chitinase enzymes are active
> 
> foreverfly - dig around in the pot and see if there are any worms/insects. what does it smell like? what was the soil that you used last year? i'd be inclined to topdress with like 4'' of EWC/compost, plant, and then topdress some neem/crab/kelp meal. got any pics of the soil?


Yeah mon that should do the trick. I applied all those individually and it worked minus the crab! I had those fuckers bad. That BTI seems to be good to crumble in the soil. Thanks Rrog!!


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 26, 2013)

Great thread guys, book I got a while ago and great for referencing to teaming with microbes .. ill have to check out the permaculture books mentioned as well


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 26, 2013)

Man, what a great thread! Thank you to all that are contributing!

I have done the hydro thing, and have been growing in soil for several years now using synthetics. Organics seems like the logical progression, and I'm very much open to any knowledge and ideas. Here's the deal though, I work 50+ hours a week, and I have a wife and three kids. I enjoy the shit out of working in the garden, but I also value my free time. I should mention that I would like to try and keep this as plant based as possible. I'm down with EWC, on the fence over guano, and not cool at all with bone meal, blood meal, manures, etc. I'm drawn to the convenience of the bottled organic nutrients like General Organics and Bio Canna (yes, I know you guys hate the bottles, and yes I read Matt Rizes thread ), but I also see the *truly* organic thing you guys are doing.

So can a guy in my position make a soil, amend it, brew teas (which I have never done before), etc and not be completely overwhelmed by it?


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## headtreep (Mar 26, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Man, what a great thread! Thank you to all that are contributing!
> 
> I have done the hydro thing, and have been growing in soil for several years now using synthetics. Organics seems like the logical progression, and I'm very much open to any knowledge and ideas. Here's the deal though, I work 50+ hours a week, and I have a wife and three kids. I enjoy the shit out of working in the garden, but I also value my free time. I should mention that I would like to try and keep this as plant based as possible. I'm down with EWC, on the fence over guano, and not cool at all with bone meal, blood meal, manures, etc. I'm drawn to the convenience of the bottled organic nutrients like General Organics and Bio Canna (yes, I know you guys hate the bottles, and yes I read Matt Rizes thread ), but I also see the *truly* organic thing you guys are doing.
> 
> So can a guy in my position make a soil, amend it, brew teas (which I have never done before), etc and not be completely overwhelmed by it?


st0wandgrow most of us are in the same boat hence why we went to soil. Soil imo is the easiest shit (literally) you can grow in. You mix all up front and it takes like 2 hours tops or even shorter with a cement mixer. Teas are easier to make than going to the dro store for nutes and 1/10 of the cost or even more savings depending. You don't need grow stores anymore for the most part. If you don't want to play with teas you can take your amendments and tops dress your plants. If you want automation get blumats and if you want to grow good dank while having a full time job, having more time for your family, and saving lots $$$. Pull up a chair and watch for updates......


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## headtreep (Mar 26, 2013)

No till update:















Lot's of new growth


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## Stoned Drifter (Mar 26, 2013)

i pick these two up at market today. not to sure if they'll work.

http://www.amazon.com/Vita-Coco-Coconut-11-1-Ounce-Containers/dp/B000LL0R8I/ref=pd_sim_gro_4

http://www.amazon.com/ALOE-Natural-Water-Original-15-2-Ounce/dp/B007FK3HHG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364361105&sr=8-1&keywords=aloe+gloe


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## grnhrvstr (Mar 27, 2013)

Stoned Drifter said:


> i pick these two up at market today. not to sure if they'll work.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Vita-Coco-Coconut-11-1-Ounce-Containers/dp/B000LL0R8I/ref=pd_sim_gro_4
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/ALOE-Natural-Water-Original-15-2-Ounce/dp/B007FK3HHG/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1364361105&sr=8-1&keywords=aloe+gloe


Im pretty sure the coconut water is fine,is what I picked up at sprouts and used and my soldiers look great!

The aloe though I have doubts on.Seems like to many other ingredients.I picked up the lilly of the desert inner fillet aloe but its was not the "preservative free" one so I stopped using it cuz it contains potassium sorbate which I understand may not be that great but also stay away from the others that contain sodium benzoate.One of these is an actual compound of the aloe gel but still a bit confused on the matter so im just gunna grow the shit and and use fresh,cant go wrong with that.My use for it is not that big so it wont matter to much but you should use mature leaves which will take a while so until then im saving up for the powder form which I believe is the best you can get if it aint fresh. s odium


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## headtreep (Mar 27, 2013)

That coconut water will work and that aloe seems to be ok. I used to use aloe gel but now i make my own with 200x powder while my fresh aloe plants grow out. Fresh is ideal!


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## Stoned Drifter (Mar 27, 2013)

Thanks guys. ima head down to mexican market and buy some aloe leaves. as for application rates i used them @ 1tbsp each in a quart, not sure if its too much or not. anyways i sprayed one seedlings yesterday and it exploded this morning! i did a side by side test. ill have some pics up later on today.


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## headtreep (Mar 27, 2013)

Stoned Drifter said:


> Thanks guys. ima head down to mexican market and buy some aloe leaves. as for application rates i used them @ 1tbsp each in a quart, not sure if its too much or not. anyways i sprayed one seedlings yesterday and it exploded this morning! i did a side by side test. ill have some pics up later on today.


Welcome to the party. Thanks for stopping to look and I hope to see this thread progress into a sticky at some point


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## headtreep (Mar 27, 2013)

I use a 1/4 cup of aloe per gal. Shit is hard to overdue imo.


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## Cann (Mar 27, 2013)

2tbs per gal is a better rate to save you money...i believe that is the threshold at which applying more doesn't do much. 

also potassium sorbate is bad if that's in there...definitely check it out


coconut water 1:15 dilution


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## headtreep (Mar 27, 2013)

Cann said:


> 2tbs per gal is a better rate to save you money...i believe that is the threshold at which applying more doesn't do much.
> 
> also potassium sorbate is bad if that's in there...definitely check it out
> 
> ...


For the new people listen to this ^


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 27, 2013)

headtreep said:


> No till update:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


These pics are crazy! Can't say I've ever seen any indoor container with compost (for lack of a better term) on top like that. I'm assuming that's what you mean by "no till"?

The plants look very happy


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## uromastyx (Mar 27, 2013)

Has anyone used microp soil builder before? I'm thinking about giving it a try. Its a micro-algae inoculant that you spray on the surface of your soil. The algae then absorbs nitrogen from the air and reruns it to the soil.


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## headtreep (Mar 27, 2013)

uromastyx said:


> Has anyone used microp soil builder before? I'm thinking about giving it a try. Its a micro-algae inoculant that you spray on the surface of your soil. The algae then absorbs nitrogen from the air and reruns it to the soil.


I have no idea about that, I'd keep it simple personally. The point is save money and stay away from gimmicks


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## Rising Moon (Mar 27, 2013)

It's actually pretty cool stuff. I was going to buy some and give it a run. I've had it naturally on potted plants that were outside. The plants looked great, and I watered less as well.


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## headtreep (Mar 27, 2013)

Let me know how it works out uromastyx, I just don't do the living mulch thing yet.


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## Cann (Mar 27, 2013)

so it's a nitrogen fixing algea?

anyone know the scientific name of the strain? 

you got me interested...


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## headtreep (Mar 27, 2013)

Cann said:


> so it's a nitrogen fixing algea?
> 
> anyone know the scientific name of the strain?
> 
> you got me interested...


I noticed you got some micro clover. I was going to do the living mulch thing and decided against until I get my blumats setup. I don't need complications.


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## uromastyx (Mar 27, 2013)

One of their pamphlets said that its chlorophyta and cyanophyta. 

Here's one of the descriptions I have found:

This blue-green algae becomes a tiny cover crop when sprayed onto soil. Apply on lawns, gardens, flowers or shrub beds. Without competing with other plants, it increases organic matter, reduces soil compaction, increases water retention, soil aeration and improves nutrient mobility. Also, the readily available Nitrogen stored in the algae's cells is slowly released into the soil at a rate of 0.5-1 lb/1,000 sq ft, per application. Apply monthly during the growing season. 1 Tbs mixed with water is enough for 1,000 sq ft; 8 oz covers 15,000 sq ft. Plan to use within a few months of purchase.

Just ordered some, we will see if I notice any difference.


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## sullivan666 (Mar 27, 2013)

Been following this awesome thread but haven't posted yet. I've been foliar feeding with aloe and agsil and its great...wish I had been doing it my whole cycle...anyway, how do you crush your aloe leaves? I've just been skinning them and mashing the gel but its kind of a pain to get it to a liquid versus a gel. Im considering throwing the gel in a blender...Im bummed because I made quite a bit over the weekend and stored most of it, only to find out its really no good after 20 minutes lol...tossed it in the compost pile.

Also, I found some nettles powder at the local herb shop...I've been adding it to my teas but am considering foliar too...because its in powder form, should I still let it soak for 24 hours or can I just add a bit and go?


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## Stoned Drifter (Mar 28, 2013)

guess which one i used the aloe and coco.


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## SpicySativa (Mar 28, 2013)

Yeah... Be careful buying aloe. I just got duped the other day. Went to a "Natural Grocery" store and saw a bottle of "RealAloe". The front of the label said "100% organically grown in the US". Sweet I'll take it... Then I got home and read the seriously minute print that I didn't even notice existed when I bought it... Sodium benzoate... Thought for a minute about just drinking it (what it's made for), but I don't really want sodium benzoate in me any more than I want it on my plants... Waste of $8...


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## Cann (Mar 28, 2013)

~24hrs after application of a barley enzyme tea. This was taken soon after the lights turned on. they always seem to perk up during the dark period after the enzymes

_"The Jesus Effect"_ 


_pray, pray, pray_


micro clover starting to pop up after 4 days in the no-tills


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## headtreep (Mar 28, 2013)

Bad ass Cann!


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## Rising Moon (Mar 28, 2013)

Yeah Cann!

Rocking it.

Cant wait to see your clover carpet


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## Rising Moon (Mar 28, 2013)

Cann said:


> so it's a nitrogen fixing algea?
> 
> anyone know the scientific name of the strain?
> 
> you got me interested...


"Organic Soil Builder This blue-green algae becomes a tiny cover crop when sprayed onto soil. Apply on lawns, gardens, flowers or shrub beds. Without competing with other plants, it increases organic matter, reduces soil compaction, increases water retention, soil aeration and improves nutrient mobility. Also, the readily available Nitrogen stored in the algae's cells is slowly released into the soil at a rate of 0.5-1 lb/1,000 sq ft, per application."

http://www.groworganic.com/microp-8-oz.html


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## headtreep (Mar 28, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> "Organic Soil Builder This blue-green algae becomes a tiny cover crop when sprayed onto soil. Apply on lawns, gardens, flowers or shrub beds. Without competing with other plants, it increases organic matter, reduces soil compaction, increases water retention, soil aeration and improves nutrient mobility. Also, the readily available Nitrogen stored in the algae's cells is slowly released into the soil at a rate of 0.5-1 lb/1,000 sq ft, per application."
> 
> http://www.groworganic.com/microp-8-oz.html


Who's gonna guinea pig this one? I'm curious!


Example of organic health. 

*Blue Santa- Santa maria plank cut X esko Blueberry

*


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## uromastyx (Mar 28, 2013)

I already ordered some to test out


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 29, 2013)

Nice headtreep.


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## Rrog (Mar 29, 2013)

Ya. Very nice!


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## Cann (Mar 29, 2013)

you "mainlining" that lady? looks like some nice bondage to me...


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## Rrog (Mar 29, 2013)

Does look mainline-ish! Super healthy looking!


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

No its just my own style. I just hand bend the branches everyday with all my plants. Some I even supercrop but for strains I've never had experience with I do a more LST approach. Some can take it and some can't. I basically top every two weeks and bend


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## Cann (Mar 29, 2013)

snapped a top off one of my Flav plants a few days ago while attempting to LST/supercrop/do anything to make it stop growing into the lights lol. Hoping it doesn't affect her too much..she's only about day 20 flower. it was one of about 8 tops that are all at the same height. damn ROLS pots making my plants explode vertically! I don't even want to know what is going to happen when I flip these BOxNL5/Haze ladies...or the TOxBMR.


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

Do you have some Trellis? You got to net those bitches down. It works for me. I can put an 8ft sativa in a 4x4 that way.


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## BeaverHuntr (Mar 29, 2013)

NIce thread! I'm back from vacation!!


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

BeaverHuntr said:


> NIce thread! I'm back from vacation!!


Sweet! We made it easy for everyone so please add whatever is relevant and let's keep the good info flowing....


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

Let's talk IPM, Integrated Pest Management. 

I just used the following today:
[h=3]*Per gal:
*[/h]*5ml Dr. Bronners Peppermint Soap
5ml Protekt
5ml Aloe*

Foliar top and bottoms of leaves and stems.


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## Cann (Mar 29, 2013)

why no neem? seems like you got two emulsifiers but nothing to emulsify!

not that soap and silica don't have benefits for pests/fungi on their own...


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

Neem is a different regiment. I switch week to week from lavender to karaja. I have pic's in this thread. Been doing these for almost a year now ever since my friend had thrip issues and I freaked cause we trade cuts. 


Evil looking ladies. Fire alien strawberry and Bloodymary













*
Horsetail tea
silica and pests/fungi*


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 29, 2013)

You got some badass genetics headtreep. Do you use dr.bronners as an alternative to peppermint oil? What are other benifits? I use his 'hemp' soap personally, I love it.


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

It's Dr. Bronners Peppermint soap so it contains peppermint oil. Pests dislike peppermint and it will kill them dead if you double my ratio (haven't had pests to try) from reading.

Edit: Thanks for the comment and so no additional peppermint oil needed with that soap.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 29, 2013)

Do you use any of his other soaps for similar reasons?


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## Rrog (Mar 29, 2013)

Peppermint oil is a biggie.


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## Cann (Mar 29, 2013)

dr bronners is the shit..been using it for years. you can use it for everything..

when I was traveling around NZ i had a tiny bottle of dr bronners that i used to bathe, do laundry, dishes, clean floors, etc. works wonders, lasts forever cause you only have to use a tiny bit, and it smells amazing. 

be careful leaving the peppermint soap on your nethers for too long...learned that one the hard way. 

any use for the tea tree stuff? i know that tea tree essential oil is anti fungal and anti bacterial...got a big bottle lyin around and i barely ever shower lol


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## Rising Moon (Mar 29, 2013)

Nice everyone!!!!

I step out for a joint and you guys have filled 3 pages...


Lavender, Peppermint, Sage, Rosemerry, Horsetail, Lemon Balm, Basil (lemon, thai, holy)...

Thats my IPM arsenal... Ill make a simple 24 hour stepped tea from one, or selected combinations and I dont have ANY outbreaks.


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## yankeegreen (Mar 29, 2013)

Great read fellas, lots of great info! 

I have been using a different mix of soil less for veg and flower and supplementing with Earth Juice organic nutes for a while now and have been getting pretty good results. As with most things in my life, I am simplifying, economizing and ecologizing. I have more than a few cubic yards of reclaimed medium (see below) and was wondering if I would be ok with using this as a base for amendments rather than starting over. Good place to jump off? If so, how would you recommend varying the initial peat/EWC/etc additives per yard?

Not looking for spoon feeding, just curious if you guys would recommend this approach and/or if anyone has worked from this angle before.

Here are my current mixes:

Veg:
8 parts Pro Mix BX
5 parts Fox Farm Ocean Forest
2 part Fox Farms Light Warrior 
3 parts vermiculite
2 parts earthworm castings

Flower:	8 parts Pro Mix BX
2 parts Fox Farm Ocean Forest
2 parts perlite
2 parts vermiculite
2 parts earthworm castings


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## Rising Moon (Mar 29, 2013)

Tea tree is awesome for personal hygiene. 

But I think it may burn plants, because its REALLY strong.

Im pretty sure it was able to kill the anti-biotic resistant bacterial strain going around hospitals....MRSA I think its called...


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## yankeegreen (Mar 29, 2013)

Cann said:


> dr bronners is the shit..been using it for years. you can use it for everything..
> 
> when I was traveling around NZ i had a tiny bottle of dr bronners that i used to bathe, do laundry, dishes, clean floors, etc. works wonders, lasts forever cause you only have to use a tiny bit, and it smells amazing.
> 
> ...


Great safety tip on the Dr Bonner's and sensitive skin! Years ago I lived out of a backpack for about 6 months traveling and used Dr. Bonner's Peppermint for just about everything. Didn't rinse well enough after a splash bath and that warm tingle can turn to an itchy burn before too long!


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Do you use any of his other soaps for similar reasons?


Lavendar and hemp shhhhh.....


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## Rising Moon (Mar 29, 2013)

*ROLS Resource List:*

*Peaceful Valley Farm Supply* - Rock Dusts, Organic amendments, soils, ect.

*Josephine Porter Institute for Applied Bio-Dynamics* - Bio-Dynamic preparations, Soil Innoculants, Compost starter

*Fungi Perfecti* - Hands down, the BEST Mycorrhizal products on the market.

*Mountain Rose Herbs* - Bulk Organic herbs, Bentonite Clays

*High Mowing Seeds *- Organic American grown Cover Crop/Green Manure seeds, Herb seeds

*Vermicompost Resource List* - Directory of Vermiculture Resources 

*Geopots* - *Smart Pots *- The preferred indoor No-till containers...

Any others guys...?


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## headtreep (Mar 29, 2013)

*[url]http://www.kisorganics.com/*[/URL] *- Rock Dusts, Organic amendments, soils, ect.*

*http://www.everwoodfarm.com/* *- Rock Dusts, Organic amendments, soils, ect.*


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## fattiemcnuggins (Mar 29, 2013)

Thought I would share a few pics.Was taking some macros and that worm popped out, wanted his pic taken. Middle pic you can see two nematodes...I think that is what they are anyway. They kind of roll around end over end. Cool to watch. Third is a view down the side of my rubbermaid tote with no holes in the bottom. Never would have thought that would work.


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 30, 2013)

Peaceful valley farm is def. a good one. I get there magazines and catalogs in the mail all the time!


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 30, 2013)

I thought i read somewhere that using neem actually isnt very good for your soil or good microbes etc.?


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## Rrog (Mar 30, 2013)

Use small amounts of Neem. Like 1/2 cup per cubic foot.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Mar 30, 2013)

Found a study awhile back somewhere that said small amounts of neem were actually beneficial to microlife


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## Rrog (Mar 30, 2013)

I was told by a learned and trusted source that fortunately, it doesn't take a lot to work, and it also breaks down and is a great N source.


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## headtreep (Mar 30, 2013)

Been top dressing with neem cake for 8 months or so and Rrog is right about the N source cause my ladies get lots. It's well worth it.


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## Cann (Mar 30, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins - whatever is pictured in the 2nd picture can't be nematodes...you're camera doesn't have that good of a macro lol. almost all nematodes aren't visible to the naked eye...especially against a soil background. 

are you referring to the little fuzzy patch in the picture? i can't tell what is going on in that pic haha, too many bowls this morning.


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## headtreep (Mar 30, 2013)

I was reading the new skunk magazine issue for shits and giggles and it looks "the rev" uses the no till method now and cannabis leaves for mulch. He has an article titled "All Natural Top Down" page 94. There is a pic with a little stump like the one in this thread with cannabis leaf mulch. Crazy he never mentioned that in his book. Good that these methods are catching on. Maybe he will start scratch making his soil too.


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## Cann (Mar 30, 2013)

but he will never stop plugging the nute companies...


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## Kalyx (Mar 30, 2013)

He is on the same journey we are. Organics is a big rabbit hole. Growing also has much to do with personal preference and life circumstances. I am working for a farm trying to go commercial scale rev TLO. Some things we do seem funny to me based on my organics knowledge, especially his three day long tea brewing, adding enzyme and caMg every watering, etc. One things for sure though, the meds are very high quality. I grow for quality and living soil is the way in my garden. No TLO at home, still doing my own constantly evolving away from bottles and bags thing. Another step down the path on the journey of growing. The truly lost ones are those who call it good and quit trying to improve quality and lessen impacts of the garden. Danks to all contributors on here showing me the next bend on the path!

Cann I have not ignored your why no synth silica question. I am just looking for nice relevant sources so its not just my opinion/preference vs. yours. Glad you asked, I am learning a lot about certifications, salt chemistry, plant nutrition, etc.


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## Rising Moon (Mar 30, 2013)

Lol. He probably saw this thread.


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## Kalyx (Mar 30, 2013)

Lmao! He probably did! Wish da boss man would delve in!


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## yankeegreen (Mar 30, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> Great read fellas, lots of great info!
> 
> I have been using a different mix of soil less for veg and flower and supplementing with Earth Juice organic nutes for a while now and have been getting pretty good results. As with most things in my life, I am simplifying, economizing and ecologizing. I have more than a few cubic yards of reclaimed medium (see below) and was wondering if I would be ok with using this as a base for amendments rather than starting over. Good place to jump off? If so, how would you recommend varying the initial peat/EWC/etc additives per yard?
> 
> ...


Any suggestions or is the circle closed?


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## Cann (Mar 31, 2013)

yankeegreen - honestly i'd have no idea where to start with all that fox farms stuff...i'd say first scratch all the earth juice nutes. then get rid of the idea that you need a separate veg and flower soil mix. throw all that shit together, cut it with *a lot* of super high quality local EWC or thermal compost, and then add (hydrated) sphagnum peat /aeration until you are happy with the consistency. then per cuft of mix add 3-4 cups rock dust mix, 1/2 cup oyster shell flour, 1/2 cup neem/karanja cake, 1/2 cup crab shell meal, 1/2 cup kelp meal, and maybe a handful of alfalfa or fish meal or something. let it sit for 4+ weeks, fill up pots, you know the drill. 

just my drunken 2cents...


kalyx i got you on the silica...keep researching and get back to me. would love to come to a verdict on this..cause if you determine it's detrimental somehow (to the earth or?) i might stop using it. 

and yeah the rev never mentioned the mulch in his book cause he didn't used to do that till he stumbled on the ROLS thread...most likely the ICmag one, not this one, but ya never know. how recent was said skunk magazine?


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

This month and no I'm not saying this thread hombre just think it's funny that's all. Prob ICmag. Another thing I failed to mention is that he quit using bagged soil in that article. My wife bought me a subscription last year so I get it and read it when I'm bored.


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Help Help im out of Calimag!!!

Gogi OG update:

Nice Strong stems!


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## Rrog (Mar 31, 2013)

I love your canopy management headtreep. You have real skills.


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Rrog, thanks for the kind words bro. I try hard at this to provide the best meds I can for my wife and I. Canopy management is a pain when running multiple genetics. We are always learning so it's work in progress. Speaking of WIP:


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

I love spraying the ladies with compost tea.


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## Rrog (Mar 31, 2013)

I love my Blumats too!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Mar 31, 2013)

How are those blumats?


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Working great thus far. I have a few that I'm testing and then I'll run it all that way. 

What kind of lights does everyone use? What you in tents or room? Do you use the old 12/12 (I do)? I run a combo of 400, 600, and 1000s I get curious cause I seem to notice that less is more sometimes even with light. Maybe I'm wrong but I've bleach my plants in the past. Also anyone get better results with those crazy light schedules?


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## Cann (Mar 31, 2013)

holy shit headtreep you really clean those ladies up underneath!!! how/when do you remove all that foliage??


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

I usually remove as much as I can before I switch to flower but as you know the first 2 weeks of flower they still grow quite a bit so I will trim the larf and popcorns away. It's a must the way I do it for us cause it saves on time and increases yield. 

I like big colas the size of 2 liters and I can get that under a 600 watt light.


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Working great thus far. I have a few that I'm testing and then I'll run it all that way.
> 
> What kind of lights does everyone use? What you in tents or room? Do you use the old 12/12 (I do)? I run a combo of 400, 600, and 1000s I get curious cause I seem to notice that less is more sometimes even with light. Maybe I'm wrong but I've bleach my plants in the past. Also anyone get better results with those crazy light schedules?


Back to the question anyone??


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## Cann (Mar 31, 2013)

flower - 12/12 photoperiod, 600watt lights (6 in my 8x8 tent, 1 in my 4x4 tent),

veg - t5 fluorescents 4'x8bulb fixture x2 for a tent which is 4x8...18/6 photoperiod


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Cool Cann, so traditional schedule and pretty much the way I do it but I prefer MH in veg. T5 I have them for seeds. I seemed to get better growth with HID. I also use HPS to veg in one of my rooms because switching bulbs suck I get the same results it seems. Anyone run 24 hour veg or one of those funky flower schedules?


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## Kalyx (Mar 31, 2013)

My PPL bloom box has 3 600w lights in a straight row of air cooled daystars (6"max fan on intake and out end of a/c circuit). I reverse these fans to heat the home in winter, blast straight outside in hot months. I run digital ballasts with sunpulse bulbs and have one magnetic to run hortilux hps. Supposedly the 20,000+ Hz that a pulse start digital/e-ballast hits the arctube with squeezes the (heavy metal, and very not organic, ie toxic) gas cocktails slowly out of the vents in the sockets of the bulbs. Where they end up is in our/our ladies' environment and in the plants themselves, yay modern industrial systems (yay a true independent a/c light circuit too). 
Currently I run a 4K Sunlpulse on the "entrance" end of the box, the magentic horti hps in the middle, and a 3K Sunpulse at the "exit" end of the box which is occasionally swapped for the 10K finishing Sunpulse. Ya Ya its a lot of halide, but I am in no rush and am growing mainly for resin quality and I love to make organic RO IWE. The box is 7'x4' with a lovely 9' ceiling . I take out one 600w and use only 2 lamps on a gualala light rail in hot months, also have a little r2d2 style AC unit that I can install in hot time too. I tend to prefer about 50 watts per square foot of 600s. With 3 its over 60wpsf. Too much light is possible for sure, any desert outdoor grower has seen their fair share of that! Genetics must be able to tolerate said intensity, its easy to raise em up a bit tho too. On the other end I have seen decent smoke come out of 25-30wpsf intensity gardens with crusty old bulbs, again genetics play a role on this end.
Veg is in another room with 2 tents a 2'x4' with a 3' light rail with a 400w 6.4K sun pulse. Then a 4.5'x4.5' with a 600w sun pulse 6.4K also on a 3' rail. If its hot the veg may down size to a 250w and a 400w as its only on my swamp cooler in there. 12/12 bloom 20/4 veg.

At work we have flipboxes and banks of 1000 watt digitals running hortilux 1000w hps in 3 bloom rooms. In veg there are 4 thousand watt hortilux standard halides and T5 units for younger plants, getting a 6oow stage set up soon too. We do TLO here: 4x4, 1 gallon, 5 gallon plastic nursery pots then a 20 gallon smartpot with TLO manure, layers, 2.1, super living EWC top layer, usually 6 spikes varying types by variety, and cocoNot used as mulch. So far so good, the plants are WAY healthier compared to those grown with my help in full synth hydro at the first producer I worked for, before getting a producing gig that was much closer to my own personal organic gardening ideals. Tea is more than a human beverage at the new gig!


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Nice setup! I think you will find after seeing us in this thread that you don't need to do the layers and spikes but if it's working for you than by all means I wouldn't want to mess up your program. It seems like myself you prefer the HID lights over t5


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## Kalyx (Mar 31, 2013)

Cann



> *
> 
> Kalyx - silica is important for my plants for all of the reasons that Rrog and many others have highlighted over and over again. do a test - water half your garden with potassium silicate every time (foliars too), and the other half without. tell me if you don't notice a difference in leaf size/texture, stem thickness/strength, etc. this is not to say that the same results couldn't be achieved with horsetail - i just don't have the time, energy, or really care enough to harvest all that horsetail and process it into a silica amendment. call me a non-purist, sure. i also use powdered aloe even though I live in the desert and can go out and harvest aloe...i just can't be filleting/blending aloe leaves every time I go to water...especially when I need enough water for 80 plants...its just unrealistic. if you want to go through all these efforts to be 100% pure in your ways, go for it. as far as i'm concerned, using "synthetic" silica doesn't affect the living soil in a negative way at all, the effect is only positive. you seem to be viewing it like potassium silicate is tainting your organic crop...why is this? what affect do you think it has on the soil or plants?​
> 
> ...


Potassium Silicate - whyforhuh?


Ok I am posting this as educational and present it for enlightenment purposes only. Gardening is based in personal preference and in my purist view...


****ORGANIC IS LIKE PREGNANT YOU EITHER ARE OR YOU AREN'T!****


My main friendly point here is that medicine and foods marketed as organic should be produced with 100% naturally occurring inputs materials, specifically ones created by natural earth/life forces at ambient pressures and temperatures. (Not chemically synthesized substitutes or analogs, no matter how identically they break down once in solution.) I strongly believe that plants and their helper microbes are far more in tune and sensitive to their environment than we can even conceive! Why else would the same cut taste so much flatter in hydro, tho it may yield more dry weight? 


So I finally found a highly informative and very well cited document created by*National Organic Standards Board Technical Advisory Panel Review
compiled by University of California Sustainable Agriculture Research and Education Program (UC SAREP) for the USDA National Organic Program*


link to the clencher here: *http://www.ams.usda.gov/AMSv1.0/getfile?dDocName=STELPRDC5057629*


I refer to this article as the clencher because it has tons of great supporting info and concludes that:


Concluding remarks
Clearly, potassium silicate is a synthetic because, although the potassium carbonate and sand are mined, they require very high temperature treatment to form potassium silicate, and therefore a significant contribution of fossil fuel or fossil fuel replacement energy.
As a fertilizer, potassium silicate is highly soluble (generally a trait that puts a material in the prohibited grouping) and jolts the soil with a rapid release of nutrients, even though the effects of a rapid availability of potassium and silica is not believed to have nearly as profound an impact as other materials such as sodium nitrate (an allowed non-synthetic material, with restrictions). As a source of potassium or silicate for soil fertility, there are several effective non-synthetic, low soluble alternatives (lack of alternatives can mitigate other prohibited traits). Although synthetic silicates of metallic micronutrients have been allowed, they are not allowed as a source of silica, and probably should remain so: the reason for allowing these synthetic metallic silicates is the lack of acceptable materials, not that they are compatible with organic philosophy. The weight of the above evidence puts potassium silicate as a fertilizer in the prohibited column.
As a fungicide, the same concerns about synthetics are present. However the amounts used are much smaller, there is no jolt to the soil and, most importantly, effective alternatives are not available. Unfortunately, there is not convincing evidence that potassium silicate will be even as effective as the alternatives, and its mode of action is not understood. These are important considerations. Sulfur and copper are allowed synthetics because, although they have some non-target toxicity and environmental troubles, they have a well-understood mode of action and breakdown products, have been used by organic farmers for a long time, and are proven effective. Potassium silicate does not have significant non-target toxicities, environmental risks or breakdown products, but does have a poorly understood mode of action, a short history of use, and has not been proven widely effective.
Recommendations to the NOSB:
The substance should be listed as a prohibited synthetic on the National List.
However, I encourage the NOSB to reassess the material, perhaps as a restricted synthetic fungicide if, in the future, the mode of action becomes better understood, and much more significant and widespread effectiveness as a fungicide is proved.


Also here is how *MANY* listing organizations view potassium silicate:
*Status*
Potassium silicate is not listed in the Final Rule. Synthetic silicates of zinc, copper, iron, manganese, molybdenum, selenium, and cobalt are allowed as micronutrient plant or soil amendments in cases of documented soil deficiency (§205.601(j)(6)(ii)). In processing applications, silicon dioxide (SiO2) is an allowed synthetic.
Certification
Domestic certifiers
California Certified Organic Farmers (CCOF) Certification Handbook  Not listed (CCOF 2000).
Idaho Department of Agriculture (ISDA) Organic Food Products Rules  Not listed (Section 02.06.33, 2000).
Texas Department of Agriculture (TDA) Organic Certification and Standards Materials List  Not listed. For processing, allows
silicon dioxide as a floating agent (2000).
Washington Department of Agriculture (WSDA) Organic Crop Production Standards  Not listed (WAC 16-154-070, 2000). Organic Materials Review Institute (OMRI) Generic Materials List  Not listed (2002).
We all know the state certifiers are tougher than bushys watered down fed rules too!




Ok thats their stance, *here is my take*. I will also cite some of the above linked Review because I know not all will take the time to read it wholly.

*#1 issue is patient health. *When it comes to my own and my patients health I strictly stand by the precautionary principle. Just because something isnt proven to be bad, does not mean it cant do harm.

Keep in mind that our crop is traditionally consumed by burning and inhaling cannabis flowers and extracts.

In the production section:
Applications of potassium silicate pose a risk primarily from inhalation or ingestion of silica-rich compounds. Respiratory problems in the agricultural sector due to inhaled dust are a proven concern (Schenker 2000). Decades ago, it was shown that dust arising from storage and handling of wheat grains contained particles that were believed to cause respiratory ailments (Baker 1961). *Burning* *of high-silica crops*, such as rice and sugarcane, *have been problematic for worker health in the past *(Boeniger et al. 198. There is also *significant indirect evidence linking ingested plant silica and human cancer *(Sangster et al. 1983, Bhatt et al. 1984, Hodson et al. 1994), but there currently is no connection between plant silica and inorganic silica sources. Mitigation of health risks associated with respiration of silica-laden dust can be achieved though proper use of personal protective equipment including a NIOSH-approved dust respirator where dust occurs."

*"No carcinogenicity, mutagenicity, or developmental toxicity data are available* for potassium silicate.

*OBVIOUSLY avoid inhaling the dust (dry formulas or crusty lids!) But what happens when we burn synth silica grown meds and inhale them?** Heres more...
*
From page 3/4, Production section:
Silicon *impregnates along epidermal cell walls* (Parry and Smithson 1964). These layers become effective barriers against water loss and fungal infection (Sangster 1970, Takeoka et al 1984). Silicon is also *deposited in xylem vessel cell walls*, preventing constriction of xylem under high transpiration stress (Raven 1983), *and in endodermal root cells*, where it acts as a barrier against infection of the stele by parasites and pathogens (Bennett 1982). Although there appears to be a relationship between silicate treatments, resistance to fungal attack, and expression of plant defense mechanisms (Cherif et al 1992), a concurrent study (Cherif et al 1992a) showed that accumulation and polymerization of silica at fungal infection sites has no role in providing a physical barrier against fungal attack. Further *evidence points to the accumulation of silica in the trichomes of fruit* as a possible barrier (Samuels et al 1993).

*Si is deposited throughout the plant as it grows. Save for the roots, all of the above (epidermal cells, xylem walls, and of course Trichomes) bolded plant parts are smoked as parts of the flowers! I DO NOT use potassium silicate just in case this burned and inhaled deposited Si is harming our lungs!!! Ill trade higher health for dry weight any day!*


*#2 issue is environmental health *(global and garden environment)
Potassium silicate is NOT a naturally occurring compound. It takes excessive temperatures and pressures ie A LOT of fossil fuel derived energy and carbon dioxide emissions to produce. It is also extremely alkaline and may disrupt nutrient cycling and microbes in our containers.

How Made:
Potassium silicates are manufactured using a calcination process that combines silica sand (SiO2) and potassium carbonate (K2CO3) at 1100-2300°F for up to 15 minutes (NOP Petition; Rawlyk and McDonald 2001). The two substances fuse into glass, which can be dissolved with high-pressure steam to form a clear, slightly viscous fluid, or cooled and ground into a powder. Carbon dioxide is evolved from this reaction. The solution can be dried to form hydrous powder crystals of potassium silicate. p.2 of link
It is an acid salt which highly soluble (generally a trait that puts a material in the prohibited grouping) and jolts the soil with a rapid release of nutrients, which in itself may have negative consequences to our microbes. Additionally the material is highly alkaline and known to damage aquatic life systems due to this. Carefully monitor your pH when using this stuff or you are guaranteed killing plant surface/soil microbial life!

*Plenty *of Substitutes: (to get Si as a nutrient)

Where Si amendments are needed, a number of agricultural products high in silica may be used to supplement soil reserves. These range from field trash, such as rice hulls and sugarcane bagasse, to shells from aquatic animals. Where agricultural solutions are not available or practical, the use of glauconite is a viable alternative. Glauconite is a composite mineral of hydrated iron-potassium silicates (7% K2O, 54% SiO2). The mineral is mined from naturally occurring sedimentary deposits known as greensand, and has an established history of use as a natural soil conditioner. The substance is commercially available and OMRI-listed.


*#3 issue its just another bottle from the grow shop!*
Isnt that what we are moving past with higher/real living organics? To me saying that a side by side comparison with a synthetic additive to an organic garden is enough, falls short. Ya, I bet your synth Si uptake souped organic plants will grow better than the non-treated organic plants in the test. Too bad that you threw the baby out with the bathwater for me (based on my personal purist definition and high bar for true organics) and your garden is now organic (organic based is a nice giant category your "organic" garden now falls into) as opposed to actually being 100% living organic. Grow how you want, but IMO you are misleading folks just like the rev if you start to pick and choose which synthetic bottles/products are legit in your organic garden. (Rev at least uses no synth bottles!) 
To each his own tho, greenwashing is a major pet peeve of mine since college. What variable we are comparing also needs mention: most growers fixate on yield of dry weight, to me resin quality and purity are the main objectives. We all yield good, but not every experienced growers product _tastes_ good and is free from tainting by the industrial world we create/live in.




Sorry for the long post. I tend to delve into my research and just wanted to share!


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## Rrog (Mar 31, 2013)

Nice flow of thought here. I started as a HPS guy all the way from veg to chop. I supplement with quality UV-b. Now moving to LED. An array of panels that I can individually move and position. Multi-array instead of a single point. The cool operation allows me to avoid a mini-split in the new room plans.


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## Kalyx (Mar 31, 2013)

> headtreepNice setup! I think you will find after seeing us in this thread that you don't need to do the layers and spikes but if it's working for you than by all means I wouldn't want to mess up your program. It seems like myself you prefer the HID lights over t5 ​


Danks man! If I had my way the farm would just be an organic cannabis farm. The boss man is the one narrowing our vision to a TLO cannabis farm. The rev gets good results for small scale. Damn those complicated transplants in TLO! We'll see if it can translate to larger scale productivity.Water only gardening is a beautiful thing though. I try to give my outside the TLO box 2cents but it usually comes back to stick with the rev's program. Coolio, I still have MY garden! Plus my teas smell dank and his a bit rank! Talk about over-complicating a simple thing!

Lights...
I prefer HID over T5 for both growth rate and intensity but also BULB REPLACEMENT COSTS! A standard 400w MH bulb costs $30 compared to 8x $7-$15 to re bulb an eight bulb T5 which puts out only 4K more lumens (exact same as a HO 400w MH)! Of course buying sunpulse and other nice bulbs can easily override this price difference.


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## Kalyx (Mar 31, 2013)

mmm mini-split... I cant wait for my next build up... Moving next june so I'll have the excuse.

Plasma also is peaking my interest, lots of the photons we want and less filler photons. Supposedly more E efficient too?

More halides/blue has made a difference in how long the genetics go... I think hps is still a bit faster, but MH wins for spectrum and flavor, plus I like to spend time looking at my plants and appreciate the truer color and better senescence at finish.


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Nice flow of thought here. I started as a HPS guy all the way from veg to chop. I supplement with quality UV-b. Now moving to LED. An array of panels that I can individually move and position. Multi-array instead of a single point. The cool operation allows me to avoid a mini-split in the new room plans. View attachment 2595356


Hey Rrog that's some cool shit man. What kind ofUV-b man? I heard people using them but I haven't. Is it one of those reptile kind? 

Keep us informed on that LED setup cause we battle the heat in the desert


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> Danks man! If I had my way the farm would just be an organic cannabis farm. The boss man is the one narrowing our vision to a TLO cannabis farm. The rev gets good results for small scale. Damn those complicated transplants in TLO! We'll see if it can translate to larger scale productivity.Water only gardening is a beautiful thing though. I try to give my outside the TLO box 2cents but it usually comes back to stick with the rev's program. Coolio, I still have MY garden! Plus my teas smell dank and his a bit rank! Talk about over-complicating a simple thing!
> 
> Lights...
> I prefer HID over T5 for both growth rate and intensity but also BULB REPLACEMENT COSTS! A standard 400w MH bulb costs $30 compared to 8x $7-$15 to re bulb an eight bulb T5 which puts out only 4K more lumens (exact same as a HO 400w MH)! Of course buying sunpulse and other nice bulbs can easily override this price difference.


Right on man. I agree on the lights but since I never ran The Rev'$ program I can't judge. I would love to see some pics if you have any.


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## headtreep (Mar 31, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> mmm mini-split... I cant wait for my next build up... Moving next june so I'll have the excuse.
> 
> Plasma also is peaking my interest, lots of the photons we want and less filler photons. Supposedly more E efficient too?
> 
> More halides/blue has made a difference in how long the genetics go... I think hps is still a bit faster, but MH wins for spectrum and flavor, plus I like to spend time looking at my plants and appreciate the truer color and better senescence at finish.


Ok, I hear this a lot about MH producing more resin. That's something I always wondered but haven't tried it out. I use those damn cool hoods and swapping is a bitch.


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## Wolverine97 (Apr 1, 2013)

Nice to see you guys carrying the torch, and making further progress. Keep up the good work.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 1, 2013)

I would not replace hps with mh for flowering. During natural light cycle when the plants actually flower outside more towards the fall the sun light spectrum leans more to that of an hps, in the in the red/Orange spectrum. However its never a bad idea to supplement the light with an mh it can only help providing you can control temps etc. Also been string really good results from leds for veg with tighter internodal growth.. still can't beat natural free sunlight if your able grow outdoors or in greenhouse


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## Mohican (Apr 1, 2013)

Have you read that HID gives of UV depending on orientation - vertical vs. horizontal?


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 1, 2013)

Not that I can think of or remember.. ill have try look up the info I have, if not maybe someone else will chime in. Always good to learn about these things, it can only help us achieve our goals more.


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## Rrog (Apr 1, 2013)

Petoskey Stoner Mohican


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## headtreep (Apr 2, 2013)

I started a worm farm a few months back and all was going good until the other day when I was curious to see how many worms I had now. When I lifted the lid there were very few to be found. I believe I over fed them and prob fed them the wrong things. I had way too many cannabis branches and other green like spent barley beans things causing too much heat due to composition. Lesson learned! Feed the right foods less often when starting out. I have new worms coming this week. I have one of those tower worm farms I got for xmas. 

I can grow plants but fuck man did I get played by the worms?? lol

Any other advice is welcomed


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## Rrog (Apr 2, 2013)

Uh oh! You can easily start decomposition and heat. I haven't seen it personally but have read plenty of folks have. Easy to do.


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## headtreep (Apr 2, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Uh oh! You can easily start decomposition and heat. I haven't seen it personally but have read plenty of folks have. Easy to do.


Yeah everything was composting just fine with little smell and tons of mites but damn barely any worms. I guess those mites were breaking shit down too.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 2, 2013)

its better to under feed than over feed...

they will just eat their bedding after a while, and break down everything further and further...


Could have been the acidity that killed them too... lots of green things will make your bin acidic..

coco and peat moss are great buffers, that will slow down the composting .


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## headtreep (Apr 2, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> its better to under feed than over feed...
> 
> they will just eat their bedding after a while, and break down everything further and further...


Is that likely what happened you think? I pulled out a bunch of piles of newspaper and shit that wasn't broken down. I'm getting another pound this week. Any suggestions on feed? Was thinking some kelp meal, veggie scraps, neem meal, herbs etc but maybe a handful well shredded every few days. 

Care to explain the fast track Do's and Don't Rising Moon?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 2, 2013)

Lots of good info on everything worms here: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/621724-new-vermicomposter.html


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## Rising Moon (Apr 2, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Is that likely what happened you think? I pulled out a bunch of piles of newspaper and shit that wasn't broken down. I'm getting another pound this week. Any suggestions on feed? Was thinking some kelp meal, veggie scraps, neem meal, herbs etc but maybe a handful well shredded every few days.
> 
> Care to explain the fast track Do's and Don't Rising Moon?


I started a thread about just this topic...https://www.rollitup.org/organics/637587-vermicomposters-unite-official-worm-farmers.html

Trying to get some action over there with the other vermicomposters...

Maybe some photos to jazz up the thread, lol.


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## headtreep (Apr 2, 2013)

Shit two threads.


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## GreenSanta (Apr 9, 2013)

wow + rep so glad I found your thread, in time i will read the full thread on eyecmag ... ur thread is going to be great for me for future reference.

my first question, sorry if it has been answered in ur short thread i will look for it ... how do you reammend if you dont till, and do you grow back to back in the containers or u let them sit somewhere for a couple months?


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## GreenSanta (Apr 9, 2013)

also sometimes my smart pots get all weird looking on the outside like something is wrong, I can't wait for the plant to finish when that happens so that I can toss the fabric container in the laundry. I guess you dont do that hehe?


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## headtreep (Apr 9, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> wow + rep so glad I found your thread, in time i will read the full thread on eyecmag ... ur thread is going to be great for me for future reference.
> 
> my first question, sorry if it has been answered in ur short thread i will look for it ... how do you reammend if you dont till, and do you grow back to back in the containers or u let them sit somewhere for a couple months?


Thanks for checking the thread out. If you don't want to no till you can chop your root balls and put them in a container and pour an ACT over them let them sit and breakdown. I use trashcans personally but don't do it that way anymore since doing no till. Depending what is in your soil you can re amend it with things like kelp, compost, ewc, etc but go easy on things like alfalfa and crab. Use quality amendments always


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## GreenSanta (Apr 9, 2013)

with the no till, u re-amend on top all the time? so u dont have the bottom third hotter like a regular supersoil grow but simply re-amend on top? the top layer of the container is never too hot for your seedlings / clones ?


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## headtreep (Apr 9, 2013)

We top dress and we don't use a hot layer. One soil but I have lighter seedling mix for beans. Clones and everything else get regular. It's made to be easy, cost effective, friendly to the environment, less labor and most important produces the finest quality medicine ever!! Yeah I've done the Sub Super Soil thing and it works for some strains but others it will burn. This kind of soil will work for all from veg through bloom over and over and over.... 

Only my pictures will prove I guess as time goes on


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## GreenSanta (Apr 9, 2013)

headtreep said:


> We top dress and we don't use a hot layer. One soil but I have lighter seedling mix for beans. Clones and everything else get regular. It's made to be easy, cost effective, friendly to the environment, less labor and most important produces the finest quality medicine ever!! Yeah I've done the Sub Super Soil thing and it works for some strains but others it will burn. This kind of soil will work for all from veg through bloom over and over and over....
> 
> Only my pictures will prove I guess as time goes on


cool! THANKS! I have a different recipe than sub, also i dont veg my plants and i use more than enough soil so I dont really burn my plants anymore, I go light on my mix and when i see a potential monster after the plants have shown sex I simply top dress with more SS. I started re-using recently using bokashi, other than I dont really know what to re-amend (not sure what the plants used the most...) I am getting great results! I am very curious about the no till though...

what do you do when your containers get very dirty after many grows? seems to me like hard plastic container would work better for this. Also, personally I am not so sold on the smart pot because I often get better results in plastic containers


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## headtreep (Apr 10, 2013)

Dirty containers? Just wipe them off if they bother you. I use both plastic and fabric.


I plan today to get 100 gal smart pot for my compost pile. Seems like a good choice to me.


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## GreenSanta (Apr 10, 2013)

I have one important question, this could improve the way I grow BIG TIME (12/12 from seed) depending on your answer here! do you let the containers sit outside the room between grows to allow some time for the root to decompose or simply grow back to back to back in them? Would it be possible to have one or 2 massive containers in the room that simply stay in the room at all time?


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## Rrog (Apr 10, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> Would it be possible to have one or 2 massive containers in the room that simply stay in the room at all time?


Yes. This is the heart of No-Till. When a new plant is introduced, the microbes will consume the old root ball, freeing up raw materials for the new plant. 

Isn't that cool?


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## kushking42 (Apr 10, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Dirty containers? Just wipe them off if they bother you. I use both plastic and fabric.
> 
> 
> I plan today to get 100 gal smart pot for my compost pile. Seems like a good choice to me.


finished or active? i thought it was better to have it direct contact with the earth


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## Mohican (Apr 10, 2013)

When I heard there was a soil called roots organic I just figured I could use the soil roots and all after it sat out over winter. The consistency was great and it drains well while still retaining moisture. Put a bunch of this reclaimed soil on my blueberries and they seem to like it


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## headtreep (Apr 10, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> finished or active? i thought it was better to have it direct contact with the earth


Yes it's better but I need my shit contained for the moment. I don't think it's gonna be a showstopper to use that with some dirt mixed in it. Rrog and others care to object?


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## kushking42 (Apr 10, 2013)

ya im sure it will be fine. by better i meant faster


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## headtreep (Apr 10, 2013)

Totally agree! Its real hot and dry and here and I plan to put a tarp on top. Thanks for checkin me on that cause it's important for people know that's its ok to do that. Put the pile on the bare ground and cover with tarp if needed. That's the shit right there get all free microbes and bugs hehe.


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## kushking42 (Apr 10, 2013)

I use thin landscape fabric so it can breathe, retain heat and shed some of the rain fall


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## Cann (Apr 10, 2013)

*ROLS is the bus ride to the next level.... *- Gascanastan



all aboard!!!!!


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## GreenSanta (Apr 10, 2013)

ok so in your 100 gallons container i assume u will grow all the same strain, veg and flower in the same room, no down time between grows, simply pull the finished plants, re-amend on top and re-plant? is this way of growing more time consuming like do u have to feed teas all the time ? GREAT information right here I think I ll have to try it!


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## Cann (Apr 10, 2013)

damn whos growin in a 100? i thought he was getting that for compost in the backyard...? 

either way, the principles are the same. grow out your plants (doesn't have to be the same strain...my 30 gallon smartpot has 3 different strains in it right now), when a plant is ready, chop at the base, then dig a little hole next to the old stem (you will be digging through thick roots probably), plant your clone/seed/what have you, topdress with 1 or 2 inches of EWC and call it a day. then maybe a week or two later i would topdress with crab, neem, and kelp. take it really really light on the topdressing...i burnt the tips on a 4' tall bush in a 10gallon smartpot with only 1 tsp of each amendment...granted it is a sativa, but still. i'll post pics of the burn in my journal. if the soil is good, and the plants aren't massive, you probably won't need anything but the worm castings (especially if they are homemade and high quality). 

this is not a more time consuming way of growing..in fact I find it much easier than keeping a bunch of small pots. watering less often is just one of the benefits. larger soil masses have a lot of advantages if you have the room for them. *i feed ACT once or twice a cycle..maybe. *

besides that its just topdressing with EWC, canna mulch, comfrey, yarrow, things of that nature - plus aloe in every watering, silica and fulvic acid in the water fairly frequently. foliars of aloe twice a week, neem/silica once a week (although I'm going to ramp that up to 2x due to a powdery mildew issue..)

less teas than most are feeding...thats for sure


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## Rising Moon (Apr 10, 2013)

Kush King has 1000 gallon pots for single plants, if I'm not mistaken. 

And 300+ seems to be the standard for HUGE outdoor plants. 

More soil = more microbes

The multiple plants in one pot thing is fun. 

Ive got 4 Bubbleberries in one 10 gal right now, and from above it looks like one nice bush. 

Im about to set-up 2 new 10 gallon no till pots. And Will post some photos of a couple ideas I'm playing with in a few days.


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## headtreep (Apr 10, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Kush King has 1000 gallon pots for single plants, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> And 300+ seems to be the standard for HUGE outdoor plants.
> 
> ...


Hell yeah that's badass! Nice going. Keep us informed. I plan to do the same down the road.


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## kushking42 (Apr 11, 2013)

anyone out there know of a source for glacial rock dust? down to earth doesn't seem to carry it anymore.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 11, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Kush King has 1000 gallon pots for single plants, if I'm not mistaken.
> 
> And 300+ seems to be the standard for HUGE outdoor plants.
> 
> ...


I would love to be outdoors using a 300 gal/plant...someday. For now Im thinking next round will be 2 plants/15gallon pot.


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## grnhrvstr (Apr 11, 2013)

Cann said:


> either way, the principles are the same. grow out your plants (doesn't have to be the same strain...my 30 gallon smartpot has 3 different strains in it right now), when a plant is ready, chop at the base, then dig a little hole next to the old stem (you will be digging through thick roots probably), plant your clone/seed/what have you, topdress with 1 or 2 inches of EWC and call it a day. then maybe a week or two later i would topdress with crab, neem, and kelp. take it really really light on the topdressing...i burnt the tips on a 4' tall bush in a 10gallon smartpot with only 1 tsp of each amendment...granted it is a sativa, but still. i'll post pics of the burn in my journal. _*if the soil is good*_, and the plants aren't massive, you probably won't need anything but the worm castings (especially if they are homemade and high quality).
> 
> this is not a more time consuming way of growing..in fact I find it much easier than keeping a bunch of small pots. watering less often is just one of the benefits. larger soil masses have a lot of advantages if you have the room for them. *i feed ACT once or twice a cycle..maybe. *
> 
> ...


Thank you....for some reason I visioned this but had not seen it posted this directly for my brain to fully understand.I mean it makes sense and I would like to try doing this but.......what I also havent really seen posted,I think,is an, if not exact,a close recipe for the GOOD soil to start with.Is there such a one?From what I can tell is that it is NOT Roots,FF,Miracle grow (lol) or any commercial bag or mixture of them but some of the ingredients that make them.Im thinking that none of you who are doing this have the exact same soil since its so tailored to custom choices.Besides the whole super soil stuff which seems to be another deal,is there a basic recipe for lets say a 10 gal smart pot?

By the way.....mad props to you all for posting the whole aloe/coconut/barley info,stuff is dynamite!Ive never had healthier plants!


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## Rising Moon (Apr 11, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> anyone out there know of a source for glacial rock dust? down to earth doesn't seem to carry it anymore.


And I know you will use all 50 lb. KK...

http://www.groworganic.com/gaia-green-glacial-rock-dust-50-lb.html


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## Rising Moon (Apr 11, 2013)

grnhrvstr said:


> is there a basic recipe for lets say a 10 gal smart pot?


Ill be setting up 2 new 10 gallon no till pots today, and taking some photos. 

Ill try and post it up tonight, along with the recipe I (we) use and have had success with.


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## yankeegreen (Apr 11, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Ill be setting up 2 new 10 gallon no till pots today, and taking some photos.
> 
> Ill try and post it up tonight, along with the recipe I (we) use and have had success with.


Much appreciated!


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## grnhrvstr (Apr 11, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Ill be setting up 2 new 10 gallon no till pots today, and taking some photos.
> 
> Ill try and post it up tonight, along with the recipe I (we) use and have had success with.


Right on brotha!


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## headtreep (Apr 11, 2013)

This is how I germ seeds. They go in a cup of my 33/33/33 vermicompost,peat,perlite. No dome or bags (I live in the desert).


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

Nice!!!

Very pro setup! I don't use domes or Saran wrap either. I just drop them in water overnight, then plant in soil. I used to be on the other end of the spectrum using peroxide, paper towels, sprouting for days, breaking root tips, blah blah. Complete waste.


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## GreenSanta (Apr 11, 2013)

i am growing a plant right now from a seed that simply fell off a plant, I transplanted her while back and she is flowering now. If I would have known about this no-till thing, it would have been the perfect container for a first go at it (smart pot 15 gallons!) anyway, I was surprised to see her coming out because the top layer of the container was often dry. I couldnt resist growing her out! (didnt know she was a she, I suspect her to be Spacebomb male x Dr.Grinspoon)


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## headtreep (Apr 11, 2013)

Since we brought up seedlings, how about we talk genetics? I'm popping a variety of things at the moment cause I'm crazy like that. Anyone ever grow out Mr. Nice Shit? I'm looking for something close to RKS and it seems Shit lol could have something like it. Anyone know where to get a true skunk in bean form? What are you running right now? Favorite breeders and why? I've had great success with Bodhi, Mr. Nice, Chimera, some TGA, and for my Spanish euro stuff E$ko aka Sannies etc...


I forgot to mention that I use those because they seem to match breeders notes, fair priced (Mr. Nice gives 15 beans), and produce top shelf. I only have room for medical top shelf that is quality due to limited space and plant count.


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## kushking42 (Apr 11, 2013)

I popped some mr nice g13 x hashplant. so far they seem a lot hardier than any tga i have popped (pandoras box, qrazy train, cheesequake, vortex)


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## headtreep (Apr 11, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> I popped some mr nice g13 x hashplant. so far they seem a lot hardier than any tga i have popped (pandoras box, qrazy train, cheesequake, vortex)


Yup. Stick with the proven classics 

I ran from reserva p, cali connect to og raskal to chimera and DJ short just to name a few. One of my first strains was FLO grown from seed. Shit was fire wish I was into cloning back then.


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## Rrog (Apr 11, 2013)

I've been running Plush Berry from TGA for a light daytime / working buzz. For nights, I have SSH from Mr Nice Seeds.


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## kushking42 (Apr 11, 2013)

another old skool winner in my garden that i picked up in clone form is white widow. no mold mildew or bug issues. doesnt mind the cold. she yields well in the spring in crappy weather. for full season she is done @the beginning of october.


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## kushking42 (Apr 11, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> And I know you will use all 50 lb. KK...
> 
> http://www.groworganic.com/gaia-green-glacial-rock-dust-50-lb.html


probably gonna need a little more to re-mineralize all my soil. i think i have like 80 yards here on site. pvfs will send a pallet anywhere for $99.. be nice to find it locally though. sux dte doesnt have it anymore. as long as you spend enough they charge $50 per bobtail for delivery


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Apr 11, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> probably gonna need a little more to re-mineralize all my soil. i think i have like 80 yards here on site. pvfs will send a pallet anywhere for $99.. be nice to find it locally though. sux dte doesnt have it anymore. as long as you spend enough they charge $50 per bobtail for delivery


Pardon me, but how much is a bobtail?


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## kushking42 (Apr 11, 2013)

bobtails are usually 27' i dont know if they use semis or not. when you place your wholesale order with dte and you spend $750 they will ship it to you for $50. my order weighed around a ton and fit on one pallet. i think i spent around $850


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## Cann (Apr 11, 2013)

kk what state are you in? have you looked into basalt dust? i have a source here in southern california for bulk basalt dust...i think it comes in #2000 crates. i can get you the contact info/all the data sheets if you want to compare mineral levels. it is from a company called cascade minerals. they are based out of OR i believe, so if you are anywhere on the west coast, chances are you can get your hands on that stuff for cheap. most likely cheaper than shipping dust from canada...maybe not though so don't quote me on that. i use their dust in my soil mixes...but I buy it in the 44lb bags LOL. not big time like you my friend


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## kushking42 (Apr 11, 2013)

sounds good, im in norcal. how much is a crate?


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## headtreep (Apr 11, 2013)

Hell yeah thanks for assisting! Cool to help each other out. I had to order my basalt just like my glacial rock dust. I live far from city limits and it didn't cost too much. Now if I was outdoor that would be a whole other thing. I need to move back to the golden state already haha!!!!


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## Mohican (Apr 11, 2013)

Lava sand is another amendment I have been researching. Have any of you seen or heard about this? Maybe I will crush some of the red lava rock and pumice and germ a seed in it 

I am always worried about other trace elements in some of these mineral mixes. Uranium, arsenic, mercury...?


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## Kalyx (Apr 11, 2013)

Flo is the bomb. My pheno is more of a 50/50 not a sativa dom. She has it all fruit, spice, freshness, superb smell and bag appeal and oh yeah THE FUNK. 
If I was king I would only consume my meds in IWE form, so I choose genetics on how they spin in the ice in addition to the usual grow/flower/resin characteristics. 
I mostly grow lower yielding, stingier relatives of the chem dawg lineage due to their high yields of full melt Ice wax. I grow for resin quality first and foremost. Currently I have Blue Dream, Blackberry kush (about to come down, yum), OG kush, OG #18, Sour Kush, Sour Diesel, SAGE and Bodhi's Elf Snack. My Flo is a buddies fav strain and he is holding that and my Island Sweet Skunk, Romulan x AK, and good ol' Blueberry. I like the original 2nd and 3rd wave genetics myself. Proven, stable and quality is the name of the game. If only I still had my Jack Herer circa '96 skunk dom pheno still, and Krystal Spike... those are the ones that got away from me (and all the peeps I left moms with!, Moving sucks man!) Plant count is limited to try too much of the new waves of breeding! Seeds and herms have been lots of work and heartbreak lately (caliconnect tahoe OG herm city, CBD strain hermed finally, Bubba dubble snowman only had one undesirable non-herm pheno) However the Blackberry Kush was from seed and the heaviest one lately White Widow x Bubba.

Off to germany for a long time coming vacation. What am I gonna do with no gardening chores and weed nerding for a whole month. I hope the internet connection can keep me tied in here! Keep up the good organic farming while I'm gone, send my caretaker good vibes so I will come home to just as happy a garden as I left. I trust he'll do a great job!

Before I left I mixed up 6 cu ft of reamended ROLS mix to cook while I'm gone. 1/4 humus, 1/4 pumice 1/2 used living soil. Plus Coot and Cans amendments plus more because I do not have the super alive castings and compost that they hold up as the center of the whole system. Smart pot worm farm to commence immediately after Germany! I cannot wait to get home and battle the heat for some big greasy nugs! Later on BUDS!


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## Rising Moon (Apr 11, 2013)

*Rising Moon's Organic Living No Till, 20 gallon soil mix:*

( I made this mix as 'off the shelf' as I could to make things simple, but a number of amendments can be added, or substituted, and this is by no means an end all mix, just one of many I am experimenting with, and having great results..)

The base mix is: 1/3 Coco (or Peat) 1/3 Perlite 1/3 Compost

First off, I like to use "PieceCoir Coco", its a chunky stringy shredded coco, similar to small woodchips/stringy coco fibers, it is GREAT food for worms/microbes and will slowly break down into humus, without becoming acidic.

View attachment 2612106

Next up is Chunky Perlite, its got big pieces that hold water and space for microbes to live inside.

View attachment 2612111

And finally Compost, or in this case, Worm Castings and Alaska Humus mixed together bag for bag. (normally I make all my own compost, but fall garden applications and winter slow down have forced me to buy in humus for now.. I cant wait for summer, not only veggie season, but COMPOST season as well)

View attachment 2612115
Next up are the dry amendments, as follows:

2 1/2 cups Crab Meal
2 1/2 cups Kelp Meal
2 Cups Diatomaceous Earth (Calcium Bentonite) (can be substituted with any other glacial rock dust, or greensand)
2 cups Fossilized Guano (0-8-1) Soluble
2 cups dried eggshells (can be substituted with limestone)
1 1/2 cups mixed dried herbs (dandelion, yarrow, horsetail, chamomile, alfalfa, nettle)
1 cup "Earth ReCharge" Biodynamic preperations 
1/4 cup French Green Clay
1/2 packet of Roots Oregonism Xl (Fungi/Bacteria)
1 Gallon of wood Charcoal


At this point I like to mix all the dry stuff with the compost blend. But first want to point out 2 things that will make this job much more pleasant...

#1 a kiddie pool, for mixing soil, #2 a dust mask, those rock dusts and crab/kelp meals are dangerous to breathe, dont be fooled because they are natural..




Once this is THOROUGHLY mixed, Ill add the Coco and Perlite:


And, once again thoroughly mix this all up until..



Now, I like to fill the bottom of my pots with about an inch of perlite/charcoal so they have some breathing room/drainage on the floor


Now the pots are ready to be filled... (you will want to leave some room for top dressing later on..)



And top dressed with some more rough Coco..




Now, I will let these sit for a few weeks, give them a few compost teas to boost things up, and will then add worms from my bin to fully activate the food web, before planting a quick cover crop of oats/clover. Once this grows to about 6 inches tall, Ill chop it all down, near the roots and leave it as a mulch.



The pots are then ready to plant, and should yield magnificent herb for years to come, only needing the annual top dress of amended compost, a green manure crop/undersow and the occasional compost/herbal tea.

Just like real deal farming outside on the earth, but inside, with created earth and small pots.


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## Kalyx (Apr 11, 2013)

Danks RM. I wish I had that post one day earlier. I stayed up till midnight last night making my mix before I leave town for 4 weeks so it can get a nice food web cooking! Keep the gems coming RM. Truly organic indoors and out!


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## GreenSanta (Apr 11, 2013)

annual top dress? I doubt you could grow 4 plants in this container without re-amending


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 12, 2013)

Very nice Rising Moon, As for the green clay, Ive been re-reading Teaming with Microbes, and I was reading where clay is the smallest of all the particles compared to sand, etc. and actually if I remember correctly Clay can produce some of the best Micro activity. Gives the bacteria and fungi good places to stick too. Soil also has its own electrical interaction with root hairs exchanging Cations (positive particles and Anions( negative. One of the many ways nutrients are taken up and provided. 

It stated it was best in Clay, however as we all know clay would be to compact and holds water to well= poor drainage. Another reason why humus is so good, because its somewhat like clay, with more organic material and current exchanges.

I believe it said for outdoors the best soil is silty loam.


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## Cann (Apr 12, 2013)

greensanta - you'd be surprised how many cycles you can get out of a pot if it is topdressed after every cycle with quality EWC, compost, and some simple amendments (neem, kelp, crab, etc.). many folks do this for years and the quality of the soil only improves. i'm sure rising moon won't have any issues getting 4 harvests out of that pot 


oh yeah and snowboarder the key word there is CEC (cation exchange capacity) - clay has an extremely high CEC compared to other materials due to particle size. this is why folks like rising moon add a bit of clay to the soil, because it increases the nutrient holding capacity. teaming with microbes is a great book eh?


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## grnhrvstr (Apr 12, 2013)

Thanks for that Rising Moon.Its all comming together nicely now.I cant wait to play around with this a bit.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 12, 2013)

my fave out of the 35 or so strains I've grown is grape goo. has a unique smell, think spicy grapey kush. I also have a really nice sweet thai cut I found from bagseed but I am letting that cut go and popping a few more s.t. seeds looking for a more stable one. in the waiting room..bubblegum, blue cheese, sour apple. 
trying some new stuff from seed too. sssdh. og jones. ATF bagseed(I'm a sucker for a fire bagseed). played w some pollen also, have a couple blue chubblegum kush seedlings.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 12, 2013)

Thanks cann, I meant to put cec down but forgot, and seems no matter how many times I read thay book you always learn something new!


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## GreenSanta (Apr 12, 2013)

I really like jordan of the island, the best strains I have grown over the last year were nycd soma, spacebomb tga, oh god (jordan), blue city diesel (jordan), medicine (next gen) and SLH... i liked Agent Orange but the yield was so large I got sick of smoking it!! these are out of roughly 25 strains I have grown (often only 1-2 plants per strain...)


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## sullivan666 (Apr 12, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> my fave out of the 35 or so strains I've grown is grape goo. has a unique smell, think spicy grapey kush. I also have a really nice sweet thai cut I found from bagseed but I am letting that cut go and popping a few more s.t. seeds looking for a more stable one. in the waiting room..bubblegum, blue cheese, sour apple.
> trying some new stuff from seed too. sssdh. og jones. ATF bagseed(I'm a sucker for a fire bagseed). played w some pollen also, have a couple blue chubblegum kush seedlings.


You got an ATF bagseed? You mean Alaskan Thunderfuck, yeah? I hope so, I got one for my first grow and that was by far my best plant to date. I'm considering buying some of Dr Greenthumb's Matanuska seeds to see if they're anything close.


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## GrowBrooklyn (Apr 12, 2013)

When you top dress in no till, do you take a few inches of old soil off first? If not, doesn't the pot eventually get full?


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2013)

I fill the pot to within a few inches to leave room. There could be times when the top layer would be pulled away to make room after a few generations. I haven't been there myself yet, but those that have been doing this for years do this.


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## Cann (Apr 12, 2013)

i usually leave about 4'' of space when I initially fill my no-till pots. this will support a few topdressings before it gets close to filling up. also, the organic material in the pot seems to somehow disappear...I topdressed 2'' of EWC a few weeks ago, and at this point it just looks like the regular soil on top for the most part. it appears most of the EWC has been washed down into the pot, or somehow incorporated into the bulk of the soil without filling up the pot too much. i really have no idea how this works...but the pots never seem to fill up if you only topdresses once a cycle and no more than 2'' of EWC (should be plenty to replenish the soil). i know it seems kind of counterintuitive but.....

EDIT: and Rrog beat me to it lol. what he said


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 12, 2013)

I been leaving room, thanks for the good tips as usual rRog and cann.

Yeah I have 8 or so going, as well as pics of the nugs they come out of. really different kind of funk to it.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 12, 2013)

hey did someone mention a corn sprout tea if you don't have barley? or did I imagine it


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2013)

Yep! 

2 tablespoons of seeds (1 oz.) 
Soak for 12 hours. Drain that water and throw away. It&#8217;s full of growth inhibitors. 
Add 1/2 gallon of water to the sprouts for the 48 hour soak. 
Strain and use 1 cup of this to 1 gallon of water.


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## headtreep (Apr 12, 2013)

I also use mung beans  Organic only please


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## GrowBrooklyn (Apr 12, 2013)

I recently made the switch from coco (w/ liquid organic nutes) to Super Soil (w/ water and AACT) and I have been pleased with the results. Now, after reading this topic, I'm thinking of adopting no-till techniques. I run a 3x3 tent with 3 gal pots, 4 at a time. I like to be able to rotate the pots and to take them out of the tent to more closely inspect the plant. For no-till, should I switch to the largest single Smart Pot that I can fit in the tent (65 gal) and give up being able to rotate, etc? Another option would be to use four 10 gal Smart Pots (16" diameter) or similar. I'm assuming my 3 gal pots are too small for this technique...


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2013)

There's some bit of consensus that 15 gallon fabric pot is a minimum for no-till. I'm sure some excellent stuff has been done in less, but again, I'm relating a small group's thoughts on this. I'm starting a friend off with a no-till grow. Two 15 gallon Geopots. We may introduce clover for a month in between grows, to replenish some N and to avoid mono-cropping. Plant diversity / companion planting is a good thing. 

We're also starting seeds in 2 gallon Velcro Geopots (very very handy thing, that velcro) and transplant after sexing. This'll be a short veg of 3 weeks


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## sullivan666 (Apr 12, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> I been leaving room, thanks for the good tips as usual rRog and cann.
> 
> Yeah I have 8 or so going, as well as pics of the nugs they come out of. really different kind of funk to it.


That's rad, man! Can you link me to the pics?


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 12, 2013)

You may be right on w that. 20 gal def outperforming the 5 gals. things need space to move around in there eh?


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 12, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> That's rad, man! Can you link me to the pics?


https://www.rollitup.org/michigan-patients/638389-what-you-toking-10.html
pg 9 I think. nothing spectacular but definitely worth popping a few seeds.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 12, 2013)

Rrog said:


> There's some bit of consensus that 15 gallon fabric pot is a minimum for no-till. I'm sure some excellent stuff has been done in less, but again, I'm relating a small group's thoughts on this. I'm starting a friend off with a no-till grow. Two 15 gallon Geopots. We may introduce clover for a month in between grows, to replenish some N and to avoid mono-cropping. Plant diversity / companion planting is a good thing.
> 
> We're also starting seeds in 2 gallon Velcro Geopots (very very handy thing, that velcro) and transplant after sexing. This'll be a short veg of 3 weeks




Where do you get your clover seeds? Sorry if it has already been asked.


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## Rrog (Apr 12, 2013)

I have white clover from Amazon.com There's also a micro-clover that I'd try. I think Cann bought some?


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## Cann (Apr 12, 2013)

yup. try peaceful valley. dutch white clover is good stuff..you also probably want to get the inoculated type because it comes with the proper rhizobium bacteria to assist with nitrogen fixation. 

www.groworganic.com


i was also thinking about getting some mini nasturtiums to undersow....


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## Cann (Apr 12, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> sounds good, im in norcal. how much is a crate?


emailed the dude, waiting for his response. the #44 bags are $30, so I imagine the price for #2000 is pretty reasonable. it is just rock after all lol


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## kushking42 (Apr 12, 2013)

how do you sow the micro clover? just throw it down. or do you depress the seeds or cover them with mulch?


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## kushking42 (Apr 12, 2013)

im sitting on several hundred pounds of rock phosphate that i dont know what to do with. placed that order before i really got into rols. i dont want to use it just to use it. i put a bout 10#'s per yard in all my containers last year, guess i can put some into the veggie beds. suggestions anyone?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 12, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/michigan-patients/638389-what-you-toking-10.html
> pg 9 I think. nothing spectacular but definitely worth popping a few seeds.


Looks real good! Thanks for the link! Do you have a journal going for the seeds you popped?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 12, 2013)

Just put in my order at peaceful valley for white dutch and barley seed. 

And an order with rosemountain herbs for some yarrow and comfrey leaf, neem leaf powder, and can't forget the earl grey tea...


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## Rising Moon (Apr 12, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> annual top dress? I doubt you could grow 4 plants in this container without re-amending


If you notice, my pots are inoculated with worms, and microbes from high quality compost tea that I make, I also grow a green manure crop in between the cycles, or undersow clover during cycles. Plus take into account all the organic matter added, in the form of leaf mulch, and its hard to deny the loops are closing in...

If I can do this outside in my garden (and have been for years..) I can do it inside as well.

And the herbal teas/foliar sprays I use buffer things quite a bit.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 12, 2013)

Rrog,

I agree about 15+ gallons being the ideal size for this type of growing. 

But with the current setup I have for flowering, 15 gallon pots were too big. 

I really like Kush Kings indoor bed set up, and his very pro grow has inspired me to start designing a similar set up for my new flower tent.


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## headtreep (Apr 12, 2013)

I second the bed idea as well. Where is the link to Kush Kings indoor bed set up?


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## Rising Moon (Apr 13, 2013)

https://www.rollitup.org/subcools-old-school-organics/630920-kk42-2013-a.html


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## Rising Moon (Apr 13, 2013)

I found some cool videos to remind us/teach us some natural processes. 

Most of these same techniques apply to what we are all trying to achieve...

[video=youtube;oL-Wa9zWl1o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oL-Wa9zWl1o[/video]

LEARN and ENJOY!


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## Rising Moon (Apr 13, 2013)

[video=youtube;IkAZv-_n16U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkAZv-_n16U[/video]


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## Rising Moon (Apr 13, 2013)

[video=youtube;V6Py71hUVIE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6Py71hUVIE[/video]


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## Rising Moon (Apr 13, 2013)

This is the REAL deal...

This guy Alex is Healing the Earth thousands of acres at a time, and devoted his life to making BD preps for others in order to heal the earth...

[video=youtube;vKc_nQGuC6k]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKc_nQGuC6k[/video]


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## Seaf0ur (Apr 13, 2013)

Some thoughts from the class, if y'all don't mind....

My soil....

i have no peat moss, and clearly ive used much less calcium carbonate because of this.
I'm quite heavier on the thermal compost, and have mostly composted wood mulch mixed in my soil,
I also got soil from both an established organic garden, and also from under an old robust tree over a hill, wind side where leaves naturally collected, dug down 8" or so, and took about a foot for BIM's / Fungii - I DO use orca and great white to ensure Myco...


cant tell you exact amounts on those, i'm doing this by feel mostly.

I had about 3 foot cubed of this base + 

a healthy handful of volcanic rock crushed with my 3 lb hand sledge into dime size or less... much powder for silica...
4.5 or so lb rice hulls from the brewing supply store
2.5 cup each of porcine bone and blood meals 
about the same of espoma organic garden dolemite lime and their soil acidifier (which is basically sulphur and gypsum)
25 OZs of bio-tome's starter food
a couple good double handfulls of bunny food (alfalfa pellets)
some kelp.... but I KNOW i need more of that
I've added (and sprinkled on top) single grain baby oatmeal for a fungus food source to boost my fungii. amount ?... cup or 2 i dont know all amounts are approximate.

i put some "glacial rock dust" i sot as a sample... but I have a local granite guy who will give me onyx and granite cutting dust from the air cleaner filters (he knows what I'm doing.) I am currently waiting because he is cutting resin filled quartz polymer shit, so he has to finish THAT and clean out all the air filters... then after just cutting natural stone, he is saving me the air filter dust from THAT sooo.... 

am i "fully organic" like some fools would argue about? maybe not... I'm not fully sure, I'm trying.... What should I add before I start my "cook" countdown in order to fully support my soil food web? my flowering pots will be 20 gallon + so a no-till fully living soil is what im trying to achieve..... so far my water retention is ASTOUNDING with this mix, I have some base that i left un-amended to sprout seed, I'm in your classic red beer pong cup... and i haven't watered in 5 days... my soil is still moist and my baby's first leaves are curling...


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 13, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Looks real good! Thanks for the link! Do you have a journal going for the seeds you popped?


Yeah I'll have pics of them in the link in my sig as they get bigger.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 13, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Just put in my order at peaceful valley for white dutch and barley seed.
> 
> And an order with rosemountain herbs for some yarrow and comfrey leaf, neem leaf powder, and can't forget the earl grey tea...


Earl grey? this just for sipping or did I miss something LoL
I'll let you guys know how my corn kernel tea works out!


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## GreenSanta (Apr 13, 2013)

thanks for sharing rising moon, i have followed phil's online course, fyi, some of his vids are really hard to watch, on the pricey side too considering so much info is free on the internet. however, it was a great introduction to organic gardening for me and all the info is put together in an easy to learn format, and each video has a text version that can often be easier to read than watching the video, phil has amazing knowledge and if i can afford it, i might even follow this year's course.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 13, 2013)

Good vids rising moon. Esp loved the second video when he was talking about leaves being best mulch and most nutricious. Also liked info about bark not being good and possibly poisonous..


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## sullivan666 (Apr 13, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Earl grey? this just for sipping or did I miss something LoL
> I'll let you guys know how my corn kernel tea works out!


Haha, indeed just for sippin.

RM, thanks for the vids, I'll be watching later when I have the time.

I picked up the book _One Straw Revolution _by [FONT=arial, sans-serif]Masanobu Fukuoka from the library the other day per Headtreep's suggestion...I'm only 1/4 in and damn. Incredible book thus far...a lot about "do-nothing farming" (ROLS) and how beneficial it is. What I'm really enjoying though is the Zen Buddhist philosophy he intertwines with no till farming. It really is a spiritual practice as much as or even more than a great agricultural technique. [/FONT]


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Apr 13, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> I found some cool videos to remind us/teach us some natural processes.
> 
> Most of these same techniques apply to what we are all trying to achieve...
> 
> ...


7:08, thats what it's all about  great videos thanks for sharing.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 13, 2013)

I believe in one these threads someone was talking about rooting clones. What does everyone like to use to root?


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## Cann (Apr 14, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> im sitting on several hundred pounds of rock phosphate that i dont know what to do with. placed that order before i really got into rols. i dont want to use it just to use it. i put a bout 10#'s per yard in all my containers last year, guess i can put some into the veggie beds. suggestions anyone?


sell it on craigslist?? lol. there have gotta be a bunch of ganja farmers in your area who are sourcing amendments for their summer operations at the moment (all the slackers haha) who would be pumped to get some cheap rock phosphate. hell, i would've been all over that a year ago...

btw, got the price quote for a #2000 tote of cascade minerals basalt. there is a fine and a coarse version of their product...i have the coarse stuff and it is a good mixture of dust and particles no bigger than a ganja seed..never tried their fine before but I imagine it is similar to glacial...i think its 200 micron. the price for fine is $680, coarse is $620. not too shabby...

also, that is the price for a one time order, if you are ordering regularly he can "drop the price quite a lot". also you can get bulk #50 bags for $25 each with #100 minimum order. price drop if you order more than #200. if you want i can just give you his contact info..i have a material sheet for the rock as well but the pdf is too large to upload here. PM me your email and i can give you a copy so you know what you're getting. they have a bunch of literature in there too w/ lab trials, etc. pretty sweet. 

btw i'm agreed with everyone else that your indoor setup is badass and inspirational. those beds are rockin! thats the setup i'm aiming for in 5 years...


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## Cann (Apr 14, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> I believe in one these threads someone was talking about rooting clones. What does everyone like to use to root?


check the first few pages of my journal. following cootz method w/ aloe and the usual suspects. ridiculous results


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks Cann, I knew it was something like that just forgot which thread it was on.


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## kushking42 (Apr 14, 2013)

craigslist is an excellent idea. and thanks for your detailed response regarding the basalt really appreciate you taking the time to email and such. that price seems very reasonable. now i just need to figure out how much i need. cc's re-amend recipe is in volume not weight i believe. 4cups per cubic foot of rocks? i think i have about 2000 cubic feet here..

thanks for the kind words! the beds will be improving greatly from the help im getting here!


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## Cann (Apr 14, 2013)

yup 4 cups per cuft...you could even go with 5 if you want. i've seen cootz recommend 6 cups per cuft a while back when he was known as lumperdawgz on grasscity. i think he found that 4 produced roughly the same results as 6, so to save a little $$ he recommends 4. 

also i believe cootz now uses a "rock dust mix" that is as follows

4x glacial
1x bentonite (sourced at pottery supply stores...boosts CEC a whole lot)
1x oyster shell
1x basalt

AFAIK the basalt and glacial are relatively interchangeable...local is best, and since you're in norcal basalt is definitely the choice. if you were in canada it would be a whole different situation. i believe that recipe was posted right after cootz found the basalt dust suppliers (cascade hasn't been around that long) and he was just testing the basalt thats why its such a low amount. anyway.....

depending on what else is in your beds you might not need to use the dust mix, but I just thought i'd share it anyway.

let us know if that stuff sells on craigslist  and no worries about the help...i want to see those beds produce amazing plants just as much as you do brotha  it's an inspiration...

check your email btw


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## yankeegreen (Apr 14, 2013)

Cann said:


> So even though this thread is about soil recycling, I figured I would show the process of soil building from scratch. I find "recycling" to be a silly term anyway, reamending makes more sense...regardless, the "recycling" process is simply adding amendments to a soil base - which also happens to be the second part of building a soil from scratch, so it all applies. Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Building a soil from scratch is much cheaper and much more rewarding than buying premixed soil. Also the quality is incomparable.
> 
> ...


Been following this thread since the beginning (thank you headtreep!) and am beginning to source materials for the initial batch of medium. Any recommendations for where I can source neem, neem cake and/or karanja meal? Found a few online sites like neemresource.com for both, but shipping costs more than the product! Any suggestions?


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## GreenSanta (Apr 14, 2013)

my local nursery has organic neem cake, i thinks its a popular amendment for flowers


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## Cann (Apr 14, 2013)

neemresource is worth it. 

if you buy the DTE (down to earth) neem, you will have to use roughly 2x as much in order to achieve the same results. a.k.a. you'll end up spending the same amount of $$ per amount of azadirachtin and crew. 

also neem is up there with humus as far as quality goes - you won't be able to achieve the best results w. your soil without using truly high quality neem. 

BTW their karanja cake is awesome...has such a cool appearance compared to the neem. mocha latte comes to mind...smells much nicer than the neem too 

neem is one of those few items that it is worth paying the shipping for...and also one of the only times in ROLS where local is almost never an option (unless you live in india ). bite the bullet....


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## kushking42 (Apr 14, 2013)

why is the down to earth neem seed meal inferior/weaker?


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## headtreep (Apr 14, 2013)

I've used 3 types of neem meal/cake with same results personally but I love the oils from Ahimsa Organics (neemresource).


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## yankeegreen (Apr 14, 2013)

Cann said:


> neemresource is worth it.
> 
> if you buy the DTE (down to earth) neem, you will have to use roughly 2x as much in order to achieve the same results. a.k.a. you'll end up spending the same amount of $$ per amount of azadirachtin and crew.
> 
> ...


Thanks Cann. Not in India so point taken.


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## yankeegreen (Apr 14, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I've used 3 types of neem meal/cake with same results personally but I love the oils from Ahimsa Organics (neemresource).


So from what I've read so far it sounds like the oils are extracted and the neem meal/cake is a byproduct. Are you saying you can use the oil in lace of the meal or am I misunderstanding. If so, what is the conversion rate...so to speak.


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## headtreep (Apr 14, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> So from what I've read so far it sounds like the oils are extracted and the neem meal/cake is a byproduct. Are you saying you can use the oil in lace of the meal or am I misunderstanding. If so, what is the conversion rate...so to speak.


I prefer using neemresource for their oils because they are very strong. The cakes/meal are all byproducts of the oil. I use the cakes/meal for tea and top dress or mix in soil. Oils I use on the leaves as foliair part of IPM regiment. If you have never used neem just start with the best and go right to neemresource.


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## Cann (Apr 14, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> why is the down to earth neem seed meal inferior/weaker?


don't know exactly why...but here is a cootz quote from a while back:

_"Organic forms of these meals contain 3x the levels of the compounds that provide the pesticide and fungicide benefits than are found in the conventional versions from Dyna-Gro and Down-To-Earth, which is from Dyna-Gro under a distribution license, i.e. it's the same product.

This increase in these compounds also applies to the oils from these trees."


_Based off that alone I decided to go with neemresource (ahimsa) over DTE. I'm sure cootz has done the research to know this is fact...

also the smell of neemresource neem cake is noticeably stronger/different than DTE stuff. same w/ the ahimsa oils..the neem oil is significantly stronger smelling than my dyna-gro neem oil..and 20x more difficult to emulsify LOL. it's worth it though....


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 14, 2013)

Hey cann what about the peaceful valley compost soil with humus. Think called pvfc ? Compared to bu's blend . And I may have brought this up before but I've read or heard that coco coir is better to use then peat , and also has less impact on environment I believe? Harvest peat is more taxing and harmful? Something I believe I've heard . What are your thoughts ? And keep up the good work man ! + rep


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## Cann (Apr 14, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> So from what I've read so far it sounds like the oils are extracted and the neem meal/cake is a byproduct. Are you saying you can use the oil in lace of the meal or am I misunderstanding. If so, what is the conversion rate...so to speak.


the cake is used in the soil, the oil is used as a foliar. you can mix the oil with water and apply it to your soil if you want..but cake is easier. neem is systemic so if you have neem in the soil in oil or cake form your plant will be still receive the benefits. 

to produce neem oil, neem berries/seeds are crushed and the oil is separated. neem "cake" is the dried remnants of the crushed seeds. if I recall properly, the cake contains about 30-40% the active levels of azadirachtin, nimbin, et al. - the compounds we care about for their antifeeding (for insects) and antifungal properties. looking for the cootz quote where he breaks it down..but its a tough thing to find in google..too many results for "clackamascootz neem cake" lol. 

hope that answers your question...i'm not sure...


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## Cann (Apr 14, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> Hey cann what about the peaceful valley compost soil with humus. Think called pvfc ? Compared to bu's blend . And I may have brought this up before but I've read or heard that coco coir is better to use then peat , and also has less impact on environment I believe? Harvest peat is more taxing and harmful? Something I believe I've heard . What are your thoughts ? And keep up the good work man ! + rep


no idea about the peaceful valley compost...never used it, but I doubt it's as good as bu's blend. are you near WA? because there is another brand of bagged compost I have been recommended called oly mountain fish compost. check it out if you're near the NW. 

as far as coco vs. peat goes, I am an advocate of peat over coco. 

most of the environmental articles written about peat don't show the full picture...basically there are millions of acres of sphagnum bogs across canada..roughly 270 million acres, and so far less than .02% (54,000 acres) have been harvested. peat mining is definitely damaging to the environment..but no more damaging than the carbon emissions/fossil fuels from shipping tons of coco to the US from sri lanka or wherever it has been harvested. also, peat has roughly twice the CEC of good coco...even more for bad coco. personally, i'd rather grow in the decaying remains of moss than in the shell of a nut lol. for all these reasons, I choose peat. I have yet to hear a compelling argument for coco...


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## kushking42 (Apr 14, 2013)

i thought you were referring to neem seed meal. is there a difference in meals for amending in the soil? are you saying dte makes an oil? are all the seed meals the same? also is the cake used to amend soil as well. or is amending just for the meal?

edit: ok i see you were talking about inferior neem oils i think. (i didnt know dte made an oil)i see you r basically saying that dyna gro and the dte arent very good oils. lol im sure all the neem meals for amending are pretty equal


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## yankeegreen (Apr 14, 2013)

Cann said:


> the cake is used in the soil, the oil is used as a foliar. you can mix the oil with water and apply it to your soil if you want..but cake is easier. neem is systemic so if you have neem in the soil in oil or cake form your plant will be still receive the benefits.
> 
> to produce neem oil, neem berries/seeds are crushed and the oil is separated. neem "cake" is the dried remnants of the crushed seeds. if I recall properly, the cake contains about 30-40% the active levels of azadirachtin, nimbin, et al. - the compounds we care about for their antifeeding (for insects) and antifungal properties. looking for the cootz quote where he breaks it down..but its a tough thing to find in google..too many results for "clackamascootz neem cake" lol.
> 
> hope that answers your question...i'm not sure...


...and then some  I wasn't sure if headtrip was implying that the oils could be used as an alternative delivery medium. It is clear that was not his meaning, rathery he preferred the oils to be used as a foliar treatment. I have learned from your post that the oil can in fact be used to deliver their benefits via oil but the meal is the traditional treatment for soil. I am getting quite an education - thanks for your patience!


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## headtreep (Apr 14, 2013)

Yeah neem and neem products are very versatile just like most of these natural organic products we use. I do recommend following manufactures recommendations or what available in this thread. For the record Karanja is the same as neem but some like to mix them with neem for diversity. Same type of tree in india. Neem cake/meal is also great for soil no only to keep pests away but for overall plant health. My secret to nice green lush plants  I make neem tea sometimes too. When using the oil make sure you spray before lights off cycle or you risk burning. *

yankeegreen *You can use either or but use both for best results. Growing naturally successfully requires attention to detail, patience, observation, and most important diversity of amendments/tools. For example: I use Karanja, Neem, Lavendar, Peppermint oil foliars as part of my IPMs and even compost tea


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## Cann (Apr 15, 2013)

its also really easy to burn with a neem cake topdress...just 1tsp burned a 4' tall sativa I have in a 4.6 gallon airpot. 

KK - neem cake = neem meal, its all the same thing. the "spent" seed after it has been pressed. both the oil and the seed vary in potency after pressing...ahimsa (neem resource) stuff being superior to DTE (aka dyna gro) in all aspects...cake (meal) included. a.k.a. there is indeed a difference in the soil amendment product, and ahimsa is better (or at least everyone I trust uses it..cootz and gang). the price for their #50 bag is pretty reasonable..there are a few places in the PNW where you can buy their stuff locally and not have to pay for shipping. 

headtreep good point about neem and karanja, they are basically interchangeable, sharing something like 99% of active ingredients. if I remember right, the only real difference is that neem contains nimbin and karanja it is b-nimbin or something like that.

here we go, found the cootz quote:

_"Chemically (Secondary Metabolite) they are 99.999% exactly the same. There is one anti-feedent, Nimbin, which is a-Nimbin in Neem and b-Nimbin in Karanja but that's it according to Parker Group India which is the main exporter of neem & karanja products out of India specifically."

_IMO karanja looks/smells better...not as pungent


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## Kalyx (Apr 15, 2013)

Ahimsa Organics get my neem/karanja coin as well. Quality of garden inputs usually hinges on the quality/efficacy/corners cut in the processing/packing procedures. I have spent time talking to Ahimsa on the phone and there is love put into what they are doing. 

How much of these meals is everyone using per cu ft.? Same or different amounts at reamends? I currently use 1/2 cup of each per cu ft. in the mix. I just top dressed an OG with some neem and other things, I hope she doesn't get nuked like the sativa. Og is 3.5 ft tall and 3 ft wide all around in a 10 gal so maybe she'll take it in stride. I hope so, I love my ogs.

Cann - You quickly discount coco b/c of lower CEC and I fully agree with you! However, for cultivating plants why not use giant shaved up seeds as a medium. Nearly all current plant forms start as seed and the seed contains the "magic" of embryonic compounds. (Think coconut water, although the coir is much more physically processed) Dont know why, but roots LOVE coco, have you ever started seeds in straight coco? Lets just say it works as good or better than anything else I've used. (Mostly veggie seeds, as the meds are mostly cloned genetics now). I also really like the physical properties of coco over time in my recycled mixes, it sinks no where near as much as peat after a run. Also, on the environmental angle: How long does a peat bog take to form, vs. a coconut grove. I honestly don't know but assume the coco media is MUCH more renewable than peat. IE the tree stays alive, vs the bulldozer tearing out a whole ancient bed/growing ecosystem on top of the ancient bed. Also I believe massive shipping boats get a bit better pounds of freight per gallon diesel fuel as opposed to dozers and tractor trailers full of heavy wet bogs. I like to have both peat and coco in my living soil. 
Before I found this sweet thread I was using reused indoor mostly peat based soil and cutting it with about 30% coco and 20% aggregate and reamending before taking it out to the greenhouse to grow some plants I CAN eat for dinner. This will be my fourth year doing this in the pots and I went full no-till with my tomato trough last season and the vines did extremely well with about half as much inputs into them as the previous year. They may have yielded slightly lower but the no till was cheaper and WAY LESS labor intensive than my previous summers crop. Cherokee purples, green zebras, and green grapes, mmm I can taste summer around the corner. Didn't get to start it all from seed this year as I'm outta town for a month now and didn't want the med garden to take a hit as my grower in charge worried about my veggie patch too.


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## headtreep (Apr 15, 2013)

Funny you mentioned coco as I was just on another board assisting someone who was using a peat base soil for 5 years and then reamended with coco only to come back to plants with all types of issues going. I used to be a coco grower, used to 

I'd wouldn't use too much coco personally. I use coco shell as a mulch personally. Neem 1/2 cup per cuft.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

About coco. 

From what I have read, the coco shell waste is now becoming a problem on the islands that produce coconuts for export. 

Most of the left over shells were being burned, dumped and otherwise wasted, before people started compressing it and using as a medium. 

I like coco BECAUSE it's a by product, and to be honest, have run side by sides, pest vs. coco and liked the results of coco better. 

But nonetheless, I also use quite a bit of peat in my vegetable garden as a cheap, long term humus builder. 

And because of the slight acidity, it works great as a blueberry mulch.


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## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

Makes great carbon! But I use Canadian Sphagnum


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## GreenSanta (Apr 15, 2013)

anyone thinks that it;s easy to over do with neem cake? I recently slightly reduced the quantity in my recipe, I was using 5+ cups for 2 x 3.8cu ft (for my SS)... some pot I grew was burning my tongue and I suspected it was the neem, in my most recent recipe, I used 2 cups for 3.8 cu ft. Not much of a change but I wasnt sure if neem was to blame.


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## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

You were smoking some harvested, cured bud and it was burning your tongue? I never heard of such a thing, personally.


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## GreenSanta (Apr 15, 2013)

yeah well the buds were dried too fast and too much for any cure to happen...


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## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

I'd say it's more the super fast cure rather than some amendment.


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## Kalyx (Apr 15, 2013)

Again I agree with rising moon. Coco is a part of my mix that will stay. Its not like I am growing 100% or even 50% coco. Why do you guys have such a either or mindset? Its a mix peeps, mix some in, feel good you didn't pay to ruin some pristine natural landscape and ecosystem somewhere, and watch your soil have better physical structure when re-used over and over in the ROLS style. Also, the coco fiber is very smooth when fresh off the boat, however in a living organic rhizosphere, no organic input stays in its original form for long thanks to all our microbial enzymes. IMO peat is great and coco is too, its all about how you use it and the understanding the user has of what they are using and how to maximize its benefits in their setup. If you guys don't realize where I live, it is a straight DESERT, 15% humidity is the norm as well as 95 degrees being a nice cool day 5 months out of the year, coco it is, you miss one watering cycle outdoors here and your peat gets hydrophobic REAL FAST!!! 

Headtreep danks for your answer on neem meal dosing? Anyone else using different than 1/2 cup per cu ft? Ever got any neem taste from a stiff dose of meal in the mix? People claim this but I think its just a myth. Spraying oil too late, ya that will get you smoking and smelling the unique flavor of neem, but I doubt it affects end product or our micro herd too much to have it in our amendments. ???


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## headtreep (Apr 15, 2013)

Kalyx if coco works for you by all means use it. Neem doesn't affect flavor or taste or herds hehe. 

I live in the fuckin hottest place on earth.


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## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

I use 1/2 Cup of Neem Meal per cubic foot (2g /L). Doesn't take much to do its thing, is a nice source of N over time, but too much can mess with fungus.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

Update on my Oats/Crimson Clover green manure crop....

After this photo was taken, I ripped up most of the oats and mulched them on the surface, then top-dressed with powdered Nettle, Horsetail and Kelp.

I plan to move this pot outside in the next couple weeks (damn late mid-west spring...), and let the Clover come to bloom, then plan to "chop and drop", and will plant into the stubble/mulch.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

This pretty much explains my end goal...

[video=youtube;IWE9Scwy1zA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWE9Scwy1zA[/video]


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Apr 15, 2013)

That's a badass beard.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Apr 15, 2013)

On our road to self sustainability. Let's not forget about wind turbines, hydroeletric, solar. ect I would never have to leave my property, or sign a bill. We share common goals Rising Moon. Good luck on your journey...


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## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

[video=youtube;Ay6loDiNzg8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay6loDiNzg8[/video]


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## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

I dig this guy. Looks like he'd be fun to toke with


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Apr 15, 2013)

I am toking with him, right now watching the video's


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## Rising Moon (Apr 15, 2013)

I thought you guys would want to see these if you hadn't

Hell yeah Spliff! Im toking with him as well...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Apr 15, 2013)

Nope I don't get on the 'tube much..thanks for sharing.


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## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

Spliff- Great idea. I'm slow on the uptake.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 15, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Kalyx if coco works for you by all means use it. Neem doesn't affect flavor or taste or herds hehe.
> 
> I live in the fuckin hottest place on earth.


Hottest place I've ever been 150 F , damn hot!


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## Rrog (Apr 15, 2013)

I'm building with steel roof and may install a cistern to collect rainwater. Which you can't apparently safely do with shingles.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 15, 2013)

Looking forward to seeing that Rrog. I've seen whole setups with downspouts and rain catch systems off of roofs that were awesome!


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## Kalyx (Apr 16, 2013)

Its really fun when it rains when you are a catcher. I used to work on a tomato/microgreens farm. We caught all the water off his home, the 3,000 square foot greenhouse, outbuildings and everything. When it was raining it was a fun hustle to run to all the various totes and bins and start all the pumps to the main reservoirs when they started to get too full! Working with nature for sure!

We didn't bring a water truck in all summer and fall that year, it was a blessing to get that much water from the high desert skies! Pretty good as just the greenhouse had 2 1600 gallon tanks under it that we alternated between. One was irrigating and the other was filling. Big, non-tainting catch surfaces, and a nice storage tank are the norm.


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

Very interesting Calyx. Where I'm moving has plenty of rain, but I like the idea of not using hard well water for supplemental irrigation.


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## Cpt. Plant it (Apr 16, 2013)

Hello fellow organic growers! I wanted to know while my soil is cooking/composting does it have to form that layer of white fungus on top in order to breakdown the nutrients, or should I be fine as long as I wait 30 days.


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

Cpt. Plant it said:


> Hello fellow organic growers! I wanted to know while my soil is cooking/composting does it have to form that layer of white fungus on top in order to breakdown the nutrients, or should I be fine as long as I wait 30 days.


You don't need that. Either way is fine. Keep the soil moist not soggy and turn it once a week or so. That is not called the soil food web as some call it lol... All you are doing is letting the soil break down basically. 30 days will work


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

Hopefully I can be pain free all day 









Fire Alien Strawberry nugs


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 16, 2013)

Headtreep, smoke report on that strain please and how you like it? Has anyone tried growing out martian mean green?


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

I give you a brief one. Denseness of nugs is 9/10, bag appeal 9/10, potency 9/10, and flavor 8/10. 

Pretty bummed I had so many males in a pack and also a few didn't germ. I didn't bother to make f2s nor did the mom make it. Be careful as it started to show a few seeds last 2 days of flower or so. That alone gives me reason not to keep it. No seeds. No exceptions.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 16, 2013)

Thanks for the report. Nugs look good but if that many issues not worth it


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> Thanks for the report. Nugs look good but if that many issues not worth it


Yeah real easy to grow it just I don't like nut on my bitches lol.


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## headtreep (Apr 16, 2013)

Does anyone here make their own co2 or use co2 in their rooms? I don't right now.


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## yankeegreen (Apr 16, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Hopefully I can be pain free all day
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That looks like some dank dope! Kudos!


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

Sure does look dank!


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 16, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Does anyone here make their own co2 or use co2 in their rooms? I don't right now.


I've seen people make setups for using compost and septic tanks to catch co2 too use. Also for best during winter


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

You mean collect CO2 from composting matter?


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## Stoned Drifter (Apr 16, 2013)

hi everyone. i did a soil mix about 1 1/2 weeks ago and wanna see if im doing it right.

6 parts Earth juices Amazon Bloom 
2 parts perlite
2 parts earthworm castings
2 parts coco coir

combined with one gallon of soil mix.
1/3C hi N Guano Mexican Bat Guano
1/2C hi P Guano Indonesian Bat Guano


When soil is ready to go ima 
water w/ molasses, protekt, maxicrop sea kelp, liquid karma(planning to switch to ful-power once i run out), and ewc. 
compost tea every 2 weeks.
foliar w/ aloe, neem, protekt

Amazon Bloom Contains: 
peat moss
forest compost
coconut coir
feather meal
bat guano
marinebird fossilized guano
steamed bone meal
sulfate of potash magnesia from langbenite
neem meal
earthworm castings
sea kelp (ascophyllum nodosum)
humate ore (leonardite) yucca meal
oyster shell lime


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> You mean collect CO2 from composting matter?


Yeah exactly


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## Rrog (Apr 16, 2013)

I love that sort of thinking.


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## NickNasty (Apr 16, 2013)

A lot of greenhouses do their composting in the greenhouses to raise the temp in the winter and to add supplemental CO2.


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## Cann (Apr 16, 2013)

sometimes i'll throw a homebrew or two in my tent if I have room. pretty significant amount of CO2 if you have a closed system. 

check out the thread I started a while back called CO2 + Homebrew = A synergistic approach. 

rising moon thanks for those vids  dreadbeard! lol. dude is definitely a chiller.


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## kushking42 (Apr 17, 2013)

im brewing up some fresh nettle tea. this time i put the nettles in the vitamix. this batch is foaming up big time!! the previous batch i chopped on the cutting board and it didnt really foam at all. the water is much darker this time too, i think processing, extracts a lot more from the plant material, making it potentially more potent/beneficial. ill post results in a couple days.. what do you guys think?


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## Rrog (Apr 17, 2013)

I think you're probably right, IMHO


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## kushking42 (Apr 18, 2013)

im looking for an alternative to perlite. local landscape supply carries 5/16 lava rock for $66 per yard, price seems good, perlite is at least twice that. thoughts anyone?


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## Kalyx (Apr 18, 2013)

Pumice Stone IME its heavier but works well. Dunno about bulk cost comparisons tho. Also burned rice hulls will give you lots of silica.


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## kushking42 (Apr 18, 2013)

i dont know how easily i can get my hands on the rice hulls. added silica does sound good though. i like the idea of the volcanic rock not floating to the top. wonder if any of the good stuff in the volcanic rock makes its way into the soil?


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## headtreep (Apr 18, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> im looking for an alternative to perlite. local landscape supply carries 5/16 lava rock for $66 per yard, price seems good, perlite is at least twice that. thoughts anyone?


Pumice. Even Roots organics soil uses it


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## kushking42 (Apr 18, 2013)

so pumice: lava rock?

edit: got it. guess there is all kinds of pumice. this one happens to be red


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## ganjamystic (Apr 18, 2013)

growstone is like pumice or perlite, but made from recycled glass bottles http://www.growstone.com/soil-aerator-2/.. supposed to be a better aerator than perlite


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## kushking42 (Apr 18, 2013)

fwiw cascade minerals is available from dte in both 10 and 50#bags


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## NickNasty (Apr 18, 2013)

Lava rock should work great.


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## headtreep (Apr 18, 2013)

Rrog and Cann this for you:


















Ancient OG update
That's my little lazy style compost tea. Quality compost with pure water dripping on it. I'm ACTing a fool hehe.


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## Kalyx (Apr 18, 2013)

If you are in Cali rice hulls are a huge waste product in the central valley rice plots, ie should be real affordable. Non synthetic silica that is actually natural AND organic if the rice was.


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## Rrog (Apr 18, 2013)

headtreep said:


> That's my little lazy style compost tea. Quality compost with pure water dripping on it. I'm ACTing a fool hehe.


That's what I do! But also compost drenches (I like the VC vs. just the castings) and botanical teas. Looking really good!


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## headtreep (Apr 18, 2013)

Rrog said:


> That's what I do! But also compost drenches (I like the VC vs. just the castings) and botanical teas. Looking really good!


Yeah man it's actually 3 different composts, worm castings, and vermicompost topdress. Variety is the spice of life


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## Rrog (Apr 18, 2013)

I agree wholeheartedly. I posted elsewhere that I use three sizes or aeration amendments. Small biochar, medium Pumice, and larger lava rock.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 18, 2013)

The rice hulls should be SUPER cheap if you can find them...

$15 for a 50lb OMRI certified bag all the way in MI.

But Ive heard that when they break down, they can acidify the soil, so proper adjustments of limestone will be needed.

Ive been thinking to use them as a mulch outdoors, for long term organic matter and weed/moisture control.


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## Rrog (Apr 18, 2013)

People like them a lot. I've never used them.

As a side note- Biochar is another CEC contributor when it's a little older. Fresher biochar has a + charge initially, and a great Anion Exchange contributor. After the char mellows, the charge changes, making it more Cationically attractive. 

Another related side note- Fresh partially composted material like VC (not castings) has Anionic holding capacity as well.


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## John Nie Canna Guy (Apr 18, 2013)

Hey rrog do you use calmag at all?


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## Rrog (Apr 18, 2013)

I used to, but don't now. Last run I used straight well water, which is too high in Ca and Mg. Next run will be RO water under pressure, and run through the Blumats. I don't use a res.


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## John Nie Canna Guy (Apr 18, 2013)

I have been trying to get away from using calmag. But this grow I royally fucked myself because I didn't get enough lime in my mix and for a while i was trying to just supplement with the calmag for a while. The top dress is FINALLY beginning to work too, plants are starting to darken up after about a week.
Edit:
I use RO water. The water where I live is so bad that a glass of tap water smells like bleach. During summer my PPMS out of my RO filter can be as high as 60-70.


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## Rrog (Apr 18, 2013)

The RO won't remove Chloramine. You can get a specific chloramine filter: 

Filter Direct Co- You want the 3 stage filtration unit, AWT-505. Fully assembled, ready to use.

This unit is for under-the-sink installation, for drinking water use, not for the whole house.

$90 for the unit shipping = $15


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## John Nie Canna Guy (Apr 18, 2013)

It is a 3 stage filter with pre and post carbon. I also have one of those ice box filters before it in the line. So I THINK I am getting the chloramine out. If not I'm sure storing the water in a 20g res with calmag takes care of it.


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## Cann (Apr 18, 2013)

yo kushking I can get a yard of pumice down here for $50...call around to local landscape supply places. California Lightweight Pumice is also a good resource. 

the price on that lava rock isn't bad though...but it's a bit chunky for what I like to use in my mixes (although like rrog I do throw some lava rock in there for variety ). pumice is nice and small, but heavier than perlite so it doesn't float as easily. i'm sure the lava rocks (be it pumice, perlite, whatever) break down and add something to the soil...a volcanic "rock dust" of sorts i guess...but mostly the aeration is there to provide a home for the creatures in the soil, as well as to assist with draining/moisture retention.

headtreep that plant is looking nice! wtf is ancient OG anyway? lol...the names of your OG's always get me. Goji OG...talk about a fun one to say!


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## kushking42 (Apr 18, 2013)

yeah i like it chunky. the perlite i use is huge. and that price is from a local landscape company. but thats just the first place i looked. regardless, it underscores what a ripoff perlite is. ill keep looking though. im trying to put together a price per yard for some custom mix for a ranch im planning. plants to get 4-5 yards a piece so every dollar counts!!


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 18, 2013)

I got a big tote full of compost that looks close to ready. Been loading it up with worms. would that make it "vermi"compost? 

Also wondering some of the stuff you guys like to compost?

I do the typical- coffee grounds, lots of organic fruit rinds/cores(no citrus right?), some mushrooms, fan leaves/stems, leaf litter, pine needles, beer dregs


anything listed I shouldn't be adding?


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## Cann (Apr 18, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> *yeah i like it chunky*




sounds like the ranch is going to have some nice soil! 4-5 yards of each...jeezus...how are you going to mix that?? lol. youre gonna need a lot of #50 bags of rock dust 


EDIT: fattymcnuggins that seems right on point...try throwing some soil amendments through your bin..like kelp/crab meal, rock dust, even neem if you want, etc. i like to grind stuff in the mortar and pestle first to increase the surface area and help it break down and incorporate into the castings faster. are you planning on using the compost soon, or turning it into a worm bin and letting the worms work it for a few months? check out the official vermicomposters thread or whatever its called that Rising Moon started...great stuff in there.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 18, 2013)

I was gonna let the worms work it for a bit if that sounds good, I know it isn't quiiite there yet anyway. 

good tip on the grinding, thank ya

Good to know I didn't mess up!I added shrimp shells, alfalfa meal, fish meal, rock phosphate, some homebrewed lacto-b and molasses. Might as well throw some nematodes and bt dunks on while I'm at it.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 21, 2013)

Skip the leaf litter and pine needles for your compost pile.

Leaves break down by fungal, rather than bacterial action, and in most composting situations, bacteria is what is dominating.

So, the leaves are best "composted" all by themselves, in order to make "leaf mold", a product similar to peat, but WAY better.

The pine needles will create acidity as they break down, and are considered "unsuitable" for most compost piles...

Ever been to a pine forest and checked out the soil? Years worth of pine needles pile up, dont break down, and can literally kill everything else trying to grow...

They require LOTS of time, PH buffer and fungal action to break down.


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## cbtbudz (Apr 21, 2013)

gotta love those bodhi strains. i want to run ancient og.


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## Cann (Apr 21, 2013)

i wish i had an endless source of quality leaf mold....

gonna have to start hoarding leaves when I move to the PNW in the fall 

the desert isn't very conducive to decay...i have to water my leaf pile daily and it still dries out all too often


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2013)

Throw a cover over it. 

I was going to say cover it with plastic but, who wants plastic residue in their organic compost?


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## headtreep (Apr 21, 2013)

I think it was kushking42 or someone else that mentioned landscaping fabric to cover compost.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 21, 2013)

Cann where at in the pnw did you have in mind or thinking about going ?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 21, 2013)

Hey guys, I know at some point I found a link to a site that gave detailed info on different herbs to use in teas and how to brew them...it may have been an IC Mag thread...anyone here have it? I'm gonna brew a yarrow tea soon and wondered how much and how long I need to brew...


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## kushking42 (Apr 21, 2013)

all the info u need is in here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964


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## Cann (Apr 21, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> Cann where at in the pnw did you have in mind or thinking about going ?


going back home...seattle


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## sullivan666 (Apr 21, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> all the info u need is in here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964


yep...couldnt find the link I remembered but just as well:

"Cut the flowers and remove as much of the stem as possible. You want about 4 cups of loose flowers and add that to 1 gallon of clear water. Let that stand for 2 days and then drain & strain.

Mix 2 cups of the *Yarrow* 'tea' with 14 cups of water = 1 gallon. This is an uber safe tea to apply to the soil or as a foliar application.

DO NOT LET IT FERMENT"

-Cootz


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 22, 2013)

Cann said:


> going back home...seattle


Nice, I used to live in Everett. however, Seattle is way to crowded for me. I live on the eastern side of the state now. Gotta love the PNW, it is definitely nice up here.


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## headtreep (Apr 22, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> all the info u need is in here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964


*Sorry to bump this thread again but kushking brought up a good link. That is where this whole thing started. I lurked grasscity lumperdawg posts before getting turned on to that thread*. *Cootz=lumperdawg for those who don't know. *


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## hyroot (Apr 22, 2013)

I'm loving this method. Its cut my work load by hours. Ive been recycling my soil for quite a long time. After each harvest I had been breaking down the soil and removing all roots. Mix ewc and compost with it. Water with a compost tea. Cook for a couple weeks. Then add in 1 cu ft of new soil to 3 cu ft of recycled soil. Add more ewc and compost and amend. Then cook for a month. Then when clones and larger plants are transplanted into mix. Top dress guano, kelp meal, etc..... when I'd break down 10 7 gals it would take me 6 or 7 hours. I just did 10 transplants into old pots of soil n ammended them and watered with a coconut water mix in less than 90 min. Before I felt like I was in a sweat lodge after I finished. I'm dry and highly medicated now.

Btw I found a year or so ago that top dressing with compost (non poop) keeps away bugs, gnats, spider mites etc. Bugs seem to hate compost plus predator mites live in compost and they eat all other bugs then die off after their food source is gone. I have not had a single bug since.

Also I remember reading a Harvard study stating how molasses neutralizes chems in water.. Another study where a candle flame will create co2 and increase Rh. Ive posted the link on riu somewhere in organics or indoor or led section. I'll look for both. 

Happy Growing


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## sullivan666 (Apr 22, 2013)

headtreep said:


> *Sorry to bump this thread again but kushking brought up a good link. That is where this whole thing started. I lurked grasscity lumperdawg posts before getting turned on to that thread*. *Cootz=lumperdawg for those who don't know. *


Didn't know that but it makes so much sense. I think the link I'm searching for is actually from a GrassCity post by LD. As soon as I find it I'll post it here.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 22, 2013)

Can't seem to track down that link...maybe I imagined it. Anyway, in doing some reading on botanical teas, I'm a bit confused on whether I should aerate or not. I was planning on aerating like an AACT for 48 hours; however, LD says: 

The 2 processes are completely different and the only thing that they have in common is that they involve water.

In an AACT you need air to shake the microbes loose from the humus and by having foods like molasses, alfalfa meal, kelp meal to the mix you will be growing on microbe colonies in some cases and in the case of fungi you'll be increasing the size because the brew time isn't long enough to launch spores. That's my understanding anyway.

In a botanical tea the process is one of various microbes, enzyme activity, etc. which is decomposing the plant material thereby releasing the elements and plant compounds. 

One could accomplish the same thing without water in the case of botanical materials and that is where fermenting comes in. Even farmers when they store the harvest to create silage add certain lactobacillus strains to prevent rotting which would turn the plant material into a sludge - i.e. composted green (Nitrogen) plant material without the benefit of brown material (Carbon) having been added. A real mess actually - a smelly mess at that.


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## headtreep (Apr 22, 2013)

I find bubbling dry herbs with humic acid works great. I don't make FPE personally. Making a little topdress mix would do the same but a little slower.


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2013)

Bubble a tea for sure. Keeps things aerobic and smelling nice. Different with long-term fermentation, but I've never done that.


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## headtreep (Apr 22, 2013)

Qush


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## hyroot (Apr 22, 2013)

Looks beautiful.. Ive been pondering grabbing that strain. I want a kush strain again.. How's it grow in veg?. My master kush ( Dutch passion ) grows way to slow. I have to veg it for 3 months just to get 2 zips. Its fire though. I crossed it with a sativa with hopes to get a fast growing kush. Ended up with a cheese strain. Grows a little faster. Branches out more and yields much bigger.


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## headtreep (Apr 22, 2013)

Grows very fast and is a good yielding considering the genetics. My last run with her.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 22, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I find bubbling dry herbs with humic acid works great. I don't make FPE personally. Making a little topdress mix would do the same but a little slower.


Thanks for the heads up. I was thinking around 1-2 cups dried material per gallon, yeah? I was gonna add homemade lacto b as well. How much humic acid do you add?


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## hyroot (Apr 22, 2013)

^^^^ Depends on the humic you buy. You can use compost instead. Its the same thing. Cheaper too. Use a couple handfuls.


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## Rrog (Apr 22, 2013)

Humics are great and I suppose some are better than others. I also really prefer the idea of humus from my VermiCompost. Again though, Humics are really great.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 22, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Thanks for the heads up. I was thinking around 1-2 cups dried material per gallon, yeah? I was gonna add homemade lacto b as well. How much humic acid do you add?


doitup dude! 


I just got some 90% humus 10% manure and topdressed a tiny bit on everything. That kosher?


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 22, 2013)

We can post pics of our results here? Sweet! I won't go too crazy I promise.


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## headtreep (Apr 22, 2013)

I love natural organic pics but please do post the strain name. Also a few here and there. I just like to show off to the chemical/bottle crew hehe


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## John Nie Canna Guy (Apr 23, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Looks beautiful.. Ive been pondering grabbing that strain. I want a kush strain again.. How's it grow in veg?. My master kush ( Dutch passion ) grows way to slow. I have to veg it for 3 months just to get 2 zips. Its fire though. I crossed it with a sativa with hopes to get a fast growing kush. Ended up with a cheese strain. Grows a little faster. Branches out more and yields much bigger.


If you like TGA, I would absolutely recommend Jesus OG if you can get your hands on it. I'm about a week after bud set right now and the level of frost is very impressive so far. And they grow pretty quick and aren't finicky like a SFV or something along those lines.

Edit:
Hopefully that didn't sound like I'm plugging TGA. I know a lot of people have issues with TGA strains and PM. 

I also just realized you said kush and not OG strain. Mind the brain fart there.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 23, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I love natural organic pics but please do post the strain name. Also a few here and there. I just like to show off to the chemical/bottle crew hehe


Sorry! Grape goo. 6weeks-ish flowering.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 23, 2013)

Dryer lint--compost or don't compost?


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## Rising Moon (Apr 23, 2013)

I have two compost piles...

One that I put "good" things in, in order for them to break down, and feed my plants.

And another pile, for simply eliminating bio mass, and reducing my garbage footprint, this finished product gets spread on the lawn/flower beds.

Dryer lint, newspaper, cardboard ect go in the 2nd category.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 23, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> I have two compost piles...
> 
> One that I put "good" things in, in order for them to break down, and feed my plants.
> 
> ...


I'm liking that idea. So far I just have the "good" pile going but I'll start that other one. Didn't think it was something I wanted in with my nugs so I had been throwing it away. but had heard you could compost it.


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## kushking42 (Apr 23, 2013)

Rising Moon: how much space do do u dedicate to your composting operation?


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## Rising Moon (Apr 24, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> Rising Moon: how much space do do u dedicate to your composting operation?


It ends up being a pretty simple system, that flows with the season...

I have a 4x4x4 cedar plank box that all my food waste goes into, and I add either grass/clover clippings or coco/peat/used soil on top of the fresh waste every time.

Then once a month or so, when I clean my chicken coop, ill dump the working compost pile onto a tarp, and layer it all back together, with the chicken litter, greensand or other rock dusts.

Overall I like to run at least a 3 bin system. A working pile, a finishing pile and a "bio mass reduction" pile..

The "bio mass reduction" pile is simply made of garbage that is compostable, but I wouldn't necessarily want to use the resulting humus directly on food crops/meds.

If you have access to fresh plant material (grass/clover clippings) you can break down all the junk mail, boxes and other garbage relatively easily.




I have found that I get really amazing compost if it goes through a series of stages...

The initial heat build-up and break down of material, then a cooling/slowing down of the pile, after it has heated up, been turned a few times and allowed to sit for a few weeks. At this point I "harvest" the compost by screening it into a wheel barrel, layer in rock dusts and alfalfa meal, and run a secondary composting stage for a few weeks.

Finally, I shovel it all into rubbermaid bins, throw in a handful of worms, and call it good. The worms will break down anything left over, and keep the pile alive and thriving while it quietly waits for us to use it.

I just harvested some compost last weekend, and now have it in the secondary cooking stage...


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## Rrog (Apr 24, 2013)

Sounds like a great strategy.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 24, 2013)

Awesome setup RM! I really like the idea of a 'junk' pile. I hope to setup a 3 bin system soon with shipping pallets. I have one bin now that's almost ready, but it'd be nice to have a perpetual cycle going.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 24, 2013)

Used pallets are a GREAT way to make a compost bin...

My friend has had one for years, and made his really strong by wrapping the whole thing up with chicken wire after it was built.

(Did anyone see the chicken in my first photo?... 
Who ever said "Theirs no such thing as a free lunch", as soon as she sees someone carrying a shovel, she follows, knowing worms and bugs will result)


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## kushking42 (Apr 24, 2013)

chicken tractor


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## sullivan666 (Apr 24, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Used pallets are a GREAT way to make a compost bin...
> 
> My friend has had one for years, and made his really strong by wrapping the whole thing up with chicken wire after it was built.
> 
> ...


I'm aiming for this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=66tLQVUcHdI

I'll be using smaller pallets as I don't really have a spot in my backyard for the size they use, but basically the same setup.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 24, 2013)

Great set-up. The 3 bin system makes things really easy once its all up and running.

And its also really easy to fork out one bin, into another. Thanks for posting the video and good luck on your set-up.


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## Rising Moon (Apr 24, 2013)

Watch Dirt! the movie free on Hulu while you can. Really cool film about what we all love...

[video]http://www.hulu.com/watch/191666?playlist_id=1668&amp;asset_scope=movies[/video]


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## headtreep (Apr 24, 2013)

Thanks for sharing that Rising Moon! I got it bookmarked.


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 25, 2013)

Here is a question: 

what are acceptable cover crops? just clover and comfrey or can i use something I already have..? 

Like mint, or basil, rosemary, ..?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 25, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Here is a question:
> 
> what are acceptable cover crops? just clover and comfrey or can i use something I already have..?
> 
> Like mint, or basil, rosemary, ..?


I stared a thread about cover crops here: https://www.rollitup.org/organics/641224-indoor-cover-crop-companion-plant.html

If you're growing indoors, white dutch clover seems to be the best choice...I'm awaiting on a lb of white dutch seeds right now from Peaceful Valley so I can get mine going.


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## John Nie Canna Guy (Apr 25, 2013)

I use microclover. A 1 pound bag will last you ages.

http://www.hancockseed.com/seed-varieties-241/clover-seed-3/micro-clover-seed-1-lb-bag-635.html


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## Rising Moon (Apr 25, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Here is a question:
> 
> what are acceptable cover crops? just clover and comfrey or can i use something I already have..?
> 
> Like mint, or basil, rosemary, ..?



Try thinking about low growing mineral fixing plants...

Clover, Vetch, Basil, Thyme, Oats, Peas...even Strawberries or Moss could be used.

Mint is very aggressive, and will smother just about anything in its path, all while eating everything in your soil mix very happily...

And Rosemary would be a bit too big, unless you did some super bonsai job and kept it LOW.


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## NickNasty (Apr 25, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> all the info u need is in here: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964


I am about 40 pages into this 500 page thread and it is probably the best thread I have ever read. Thanks for the link!


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## woody333333 (Apr 26, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Try thinking about low growing mineral fixing plants...
> 
> Clover, Vetch, Basil, Thyme, Oats, Peas...even Strawberries or Moss could be used.
> 
> ...



strawberries????..........im sold..........been stalking u guys for hundreds of pages all u had to say was strawberries


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## woody333333 (Apr 26, 2013)

woody333333 said:


> strawberries????..........im sold..........been stalking u guys for hundreds of pages all u had to say was strawberries


not really........ but the info is great...............i just really love strawberries


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## fattiemcnuggins (Apr 26, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Try thinking about low growing mineral fixing plants...
> 
> Clover, Vetch, Basil, Thyme, Oats, Peas...even Strawberries or Moss could be used.
> 
> ...



I thought the mint might be an ok one, I am just low on cash and like to use what I have around. Maybe I'll try some basil and mint .


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## John Nie Canna Guy (Apr 26, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> I thought the mint might be an ok one, I am just low on cash and like to use what I have around. Maybe I'll try some basil and mint .


I would strongly suggest not using mint. Mint spreads like wildfire and it takes over raised beds and chokes other plants out. I made the mistake of putting it in my aquaponics system and the mint completely took over and choked out all the greens I had in there.


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## turnip brain (Apr 26, 2013)

Mint is also often a powdery mildew magnet


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## viewer1020 (Apr 26, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Used pallets are a GREAT way to make a compost bin...


One caution when using reclaimed timber in the garden: make sure it isn't CCA-treated. That blue-green tint you see on treated pine is Copper, Chromium and Arsenic. The copper might not be so bad, but you really don't want the other two! In my country (Oz) the hardwood pallets seem to be mostly untreated, and I've seen some pine pallets which are treated, and some which aren't.

If your timber has been treated, I believe you can remove the bulk of it by sanding/sawing/planing the top few millimeters off all faces.


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## mrcourios (Apr 26, 2013)

Is anybody familiar with this product,it's whole aloe vera if that matters. A lot cheaper than others I looked at.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0057RTURU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3AKPZ3YLFRNFP


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## headtreep (Apr 26, 2013)

mrcourios said:


> Is anybody familiar with this product,it's whole aloe vera if that matters. A lot cheaper than others I looked at.
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0057RTURU/ref=ox_sc_act_title_1?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A3AKPZ3YLFRNFP


That's pretty expensive considering this: http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Aloe_Vera_Extract_200x_Organic_Puraloe/111


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## Rising Moon (Apr 26, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> I thought the mint might be an ok one, I am just low on cash and like to use what I have around. Maybe I'll try some basil and mint .


If you want to add mint as a COMPANION plant, then be all means, transplant it into a small pot, and bury that into your bigger pot, to stop it from aggressively spreading and stealing food from the real crop your trying to grow...


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## mrcourios (Apr 26, 2013)

headtreep said:


> That's pretty expensive considering this: http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Aloe_Vera_Extract_200x_Organic_Puraloe/111


I think I'll try this out since they have it at a store 3 miles from my house,plus they have the coconut powder.I don't need a lot since I will only have 12 plants max at any one time,flower,veg and clone.

http://www.lilyofthedesert.com/shop/preservative-free-juices/
http://navitasnaturals.com/product/529/Coconut-Water-Powder.html


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## sullivan666 (Apr 27, 2013)

Off topic question, can BTI dunks be used as foliar or should i keep it in the soil?


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## Cann (Apr 27, 2013)

can't think of a reason to spray BTI as a foliar....I would only use it in the soil. not sure if there could be any benefits of a foliar application...

is it for fungus gnats? what are you trying to control w/ the BTI?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 27, 2013)

Honestly, I'm not sure what they are exactly. I've just noticed some marks on some leaves that look pest related. I'll try to get some pics up when the lights come on. I've noticed some small 'gnat-like' insects a few times but I was never able to identify em. I think its gotta be either thrips or fungus gnats though. In either case, BTI would be best in soil?


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## headtreep (Apr 27, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Honestly, I'm not sure what they are exactly. I've just noticed some marks on some leaves that look pest related. I'll try to get some pics up when the lights come on. I've noticed some small 'gnat-like' insects a few times but I was never able to identify em. I think its gotta be either thrips or fungus gnats though. In either case, BTI would be best in soil?


BTI for soil and spinosad on leaves if you really think you have an issue. Also neem cake bubbled tea 24 hours and drench/foliar. I've used about a 1/4 to 1/2 cup with success for a 5 gal bucket. Capt Jacks concentrate is what you want for the spinosad btw. Shit works well but I hear it can kill the good bugs as well.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 27, 2013)

Thanks for the info. I'll look into spinosad. I know the hydro store has this http://www.amazon.com/Garden-Essentials-oz-Neem-Oil/dp/B002VS4VS6

Anyone have experience with it?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 28, 2013)

Nvm, I found my answeres on pages 25-26...just placed an order with Ahimsa Alternative


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## sullivan666 (Apr 28, 2013)

Got a new question...I've been cruising the alleys around my neighborhood for materials...today I was looking for milk crates to put my worm pot on top of...found them and found a 5 gallon bucket almost full of this: 

It looks similar to pumice but I don't think it is. Anyone have any ideas what it could be? I was thinking of using it for aeration in the worm bin and garden.


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## hyroot (Apr 28, 2013)

mrcourios said:


> I think I'll try this out since they have it at a store 3 miles from my house,plus they have the coconut powder.I don't need a lot since I will only have 12 plants max at any one time,flower,veg and clone.
> 
> http://www.lilyofthedesert.com/shop/preservative-free-juices/
> http://navitasnaturals.com/product/529/Coconut-Water-Powder.html


That's pretty expensive. More than buying bottles of coconut water at walmart.. The coconut powder will only be good for 15 gal of water. That's one watering for me. The best place for coconut water or powder is any of those little Asian markets. If you are in SoCal they are all over Irvine, Westminster, garden grove, and Costa mesa and diamond bar. 

You can buy aloe plants at home depot for $3.50


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## NickNasty (Apr 28, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Got a new question...I've been cruising the alleys around my neighborhood for materials...today I was looking for milk crates to put my worm pot on top of...found them and found a 5 gallon bucket almost full of this:
> View attachment 2635443
> It looks similar to pumice but I don't think it is. Anyone have any ideas what it could be? I was thinking of using it for aeration in the worm bin and garden.


Looks like sea shells and possibly something like coral that has degraded over time from water erosion. If so it would probably work great.


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## headtreep (Apr 28, 2013)

Where does everyone source their water? I use R/O cause my tap is really nasty and when I used to use hydro it tested about 700+ ppm. Been using R/O even in soil with great results. What do you use and why? Rrog brought up a great point about R/O being close to rain water. I really like that idea.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 28, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Looks like sea shells and possibly something like coral that has degraded over time from water erosion. If so it would probably work great.


Thanks for the input, I'm thinking I'm gonna go ahead with it. I was thinking I should let them soak in water for 24 hours then dry em out in the sun to avoid any pesticides chemicals that may have been used with them...do you think that's necessary?


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## sullivan666 (Apr 28, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Where does everyone source their water? I use R/O cause my tap is really nasty and when I used to use hydro it tested about 700+ ppm. Been using R/O even in soil with great results. What do you use and why? Rrog brought up a great point about R/O being close to rain water. I really like that idea.


I use RO because my tap is equally nasty.


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## NickNasty (Apr 28, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Thanks for the input, I'm thinking I'm gonna go ahead with it. I was thinking I should let them soak in water for 24 hours then dry em out in the sun to avoid any pesticides chemicals that may have been used with them...do you think that's necessary?


Now that I look at it again I think its a type of aquarium gravel of coral and shell fragments which is why you only have a 5 gallon pail of it. Should house bacteria well and add calcium.


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## NickNasty (Apr 28, 2013)

I have a whole house filter with a kdf85 filter so I can run water straight from any tap. I am coming to the conclusion though that it is really unnecessary if you use humic acid or compost or ewc because the humic acid in all of these will neutralize the chlorine/chloramine. I think its something like a tsp of humic acid will neutralize 500 gallons of tap water so as long as you add fresh sources every once in a while you shouldn't be killing off too many microbes.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Apr 29, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Where does everyone source their water? I use R/O cause my tap is really nasty and when I used to use hydro it tested about 700+ ppm. Been using R/O even in soil with great results. What do you use and why? Rrog brought up a great point about R/O being close to rain water. I really like that idea.


Ditto. Always have used RO because unfortunately my tap has always been terrible haha. Thanks for the invite. Very interesting thread.


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## Kalyx (Apr 29, 2013)

Google STRUCTURED WATER. Use it. Structured RO is what my indoor garden gets.

I have a simple water structuring setup my dad built for the garden out of a 5 gallon bucket, a couple funnels and two smaller buckets. It has a sub pump that pumps RO to the top funnel where it spins a clockwise vortex, then into a hose to reverse the spin for a counter clockwise vortex in a second funnel, then back into the 5 gal which acts as the 'res' and holds the pump. This simple device will do about 4 gallons at a time.

A 2008 documentary titled 'water' is where he got his idea, and internet research of course. I makes sense to me after hearing what the chinese researcher found doing side by side tests with structured vs regular irrigation water as the only variable changed. The structured water crops required 20% less water, yielded more weight, more nutrition, and had better growth rates and general health. BAM!!!

Basically water has memory based on its supra-molecular structuring, and 90 degree bends and filtering technology like RO destroy the structure (human pipes have LOTS of these) to a point where the water is in a sad state for interactions with biology. It can be structured again by simply flowing in vortexes and other natural bends and also by other means like "love and gratitude" amazing simple nature tech. A small amount of fully structured water can structure large amounts of regular water. Enjoy everybody!

I will get pics of the unit and better citations for structured water when I am back home. Love and Gratitude for everyones input on natural gardening on here and for showing the way to the cootz thread!!!


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## headtreep (Apr 29, 2013)

I really like where this thread is going. I think water source is an important subject. Please do share any pics or links etc.


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## John Nie Canna Guy (Apr 29, 2013)

I got a 3 stage R/O filter from amazon. A little slow, but it works like a champ. I fill up a 20 gallon Rubbermaid trash can as a res and add calmag and let it sit with an air stone until I use it all up.


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## hyroot (Apr 29, 2013)

Sodium thiosulfate will neutralize chlorine and other chems and breaks chloramine down into chlorine in tap water. Sodium thiosulfate is found in molasses and fish hydroslate. RO water still has chloramine.


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## Cann (Apr 29, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> A small amount of fully structured water can structure large amounts of regular water.


Sounds like Ice-9  


Cool Idea though. I would love to see some literature about this stuff...does said "chinese researcher" have published work? or do you have a link to the documentary? 

I am a huge proponent of clean drinking water, and I always give people shit for drinking tap/bottled h2o. there are a bunch of great documentaries out there about h2o...._F.L.O.W. (for love of water), Tapped!, _and_ Blue Gold: World Water Wars _to mention a few. I'd highly recommend y'all give those a watch. Also _Flouridegate_ is a good documentary about water fluoridation. water is the most important thing on earth...bout time we educated ourselves about it


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## yankeegreen (Apr 29, 2013)

Cann said:


> *Sounds like Ice-9*


Dude, Vonnegut's stories rock!


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## yankeegreen (Apr 29, 2013)

I am very excited - just found 30lbs of rock dust on my doorstep!


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## sullivan666 (Apr 29, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> Google STRUCTURED WATER. Use it. Structured RO is what my indoor garden gets.
> 
> I have a simple water structuring setup my dad built for the garden out of a 5 gallon bucket, a couple funnels and two smaller buckets. It has a sub pump that pumps RO to the top funnel where it spins a clockwise vortex, then into a hose to reverse the spin for a counter clockwise vortex in a second funnel, then back into the 5 gal which acts as the 'res' and holds the pump. This simple device will do about 4 gallons at a time.
> 
> ...


I'm glad structured water was brought up. I have some friends that are big proponents of it, mainly for human health vs agriculture. I have other friends who dismiss it as pseudoscience. I haven't done all that much research on it myself, so I'm on the fence. I haven't watched the documentary 'water' yet, but I have done some searches trying to find some legit articles (not testimonials or advertising) about structured water and haven't found much of anything. I found this when looking for opponent's views: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html I don't have enough knowledge of chemistry, but maybe some of you guys can give your thoughts?


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## yankeegreen (Apr 29, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Sodium thiosulfate will neutralize chlorine and other chems and breaks chloramine down into chlorine in tap water. Sodium thiosulfate is found in molasses and fish hydroslate. RO water still has chloramine.


Interesting post. I took a quick look at this approach but I don't think I know enough about the chemistry. From what I am picking up, the ST breaks down the chloramine into amonia and chlorine. The chlorine disipates naturally or can be removed easily by chemical means. The ammonia is potentially toxic to plants, but at ph below 7 ionizes into ammonium which is not toxic.

Assuming the solution and soil are both below ph 7 (they better be or you will have other problems) are there any potential drawbacks to having the amonium or additional sodium in the soil, particularly as it relates to the wide range of microbes? Is the ammonium broken down further? If so, into what? Anyone else tried this approach to de-clorimine?


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## headtreep (Apr 29, 2013)

Do you know for sure you have chloramine in your water? I know we don't. Not everyone does. I have good results with my R/O.


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## yankeegreen (Apr 29, 2013)

The municipality publishes a detailed water quality report annually including a detailed breakdown. If I am reading it correctly, chloramine content is 2.1mg/l avg (range 1.9-2.5ml/l). I will follow up with a phone call to the city to verify. Thanks for the nudge


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## headtreep (Apr 29, 2013)

Cool, I just wouldn't want you wasting your time. All about time.....

[video=youtube;wbMWdIjArg0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbMWdIjArg0[/video]


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## hyroot (Apr 29, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> Interesting post. I took a quick look at this approach but I don't think I know enough about the chemistry. From what I am picking up, the ST breaks down the chloramine into amonia and chlorine. The chlorine disipates naturally or can be removed easily by chemical means. The ammonia is potentially toxic to plants, but at ph below 7 ionizes into ammonium which is not toxic.
> 
> Assuming the solution and soil are both below ph 7 (they better be or you will have other problems) are there any potential drawbacks to having the amonium or additional sodium in the soil, particularly as it relates to the wide range of microbes? Is the ammonium broken down further? If so, into what? Anyone else tried this approach to de-clorimine?



With aerating the ammonia will evaporate. Probably what you read was referring to the dangers to fish and plants in aquariums. Chlorine is a catch 22. It will promote root growth but kills all the good bennies.


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## snowboarder396 (Apr 29, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Got a new question...I've been cruising the alleys around my neighborhood for materials...today I was looking for milk crates to put my worm pot on top of...found them and found a 5 gallon bucket almost full of this:
> View attachment 2635443
> It looks similar to pumice but I don't think it is. Anyone have any ideas what it could be? I was thinking of using it for aeration in the worm bin and garden.


That would most definetely be coral rubble from a tank, good stuff.just be sure rinse real well due to possibly being used in a saltwater tank


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## yankeegreen (Apr 29, 2013)

hyroot said:


> With aerating the ammonia will evaporate. Probably what you read was referring to the dangers to fish and plants in aquariums. Chlorine is a catch 22. It will promote root growth but kills all the good bennies.


The sources I found were in the context of aquariums - I should have pointed that out. So are you saying that the ammonia/ammonium will evaporate out of solution, ie bubbling in a tea? Will the standard 24 hour aeration do the trick? Guess a standard aquarium ammonia test kit would cover that.


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## hyroot (Apr 29, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> The sources I found were in the context of aquariums - I should have pointed that out. So are you saying that the ammonia/ammonium will evaporate out of solution, ie bubbling in a tea? Will the standard 24 hour aeration do the trick? Guess a standard aquarium ammonia test kit would cover that.


24 hour aerating will get rid of it. Molasses does its magic in 20 - 30 min per 5 gals.


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## yankeegreen (Apr 29, 2013)

hyroot said:


> 24 hour aerating will get rid of it. Molasses does its magic in 20 - 30 min per 5 gals.


Thanks again. I did just read a post on a gardening forum that suggesting molasses would help but did not offer any reasoning or aeration time. May have to give this a go.


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## headtreep (Apr 29, 2013)

Yes that is true ^


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## dl290485 (Apr 30, 2013)

Hey guys what should i do with my *banana peels*? I'm not going to eat a couple just because i want to fertilize so i'm going to have to collect them as they are eaten to use later. Take today for example, my son has eaten 2 and i've got the skins but right now i'm not blooming any plants- i've just got a couple seedlings going. I seen that people *dry it up *in the sun and crumble it into pots but how long will this dry banana keep for? And where do i keep it? Garage in a plastic bag or in the freezer? Somewhere in this thread, i think, i read about *simmering the peel* with molasses and water- how long would that product keep for and again where would it be kept?


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## dl290485 (Apr 30, 2013)

I've been googling for ages gah! I can't find a guide anywhere on what to do with *fresh aloe vera *to use it as a *foliar spray*. I don't have bottled or powdered or any product- just the fresh growing plants in my yard.
1- what do i do to it? 
2- what dose do i use this modified aloe?
3- how often is it used?


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## Kalyx (Apr 30, 2013)

2tbl puréed aloe Vera per gallon apply foliar

Google 'structured water 2008' and you can see and hear researchers around the world explain much more than pseudoscience! It is kind of long and only a short part around 15 minutes about ag stuff. Most of them are not from North America. If you don't get it after watching that no amount of hand holding will get u there. Structured water for the ladies and veggies = more natural genetic expression. The fish pheno research blew my mind, especially for monocropping like we are doing. Also keep in mind there is A LOT more to the natural systems of earth than all scientists put together can understand/publish. INITY


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## dl290485 (Apr 30, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> 2tbl puréed aloe Vera per gallon apply foliar


How often is recommended to get the growth boosting effect?


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## Kalyx (Apr 30, 2013)

As often as you like. Most people do every week or 3 days if you really have the time/don't mind making the drip mess more often. Usually a foliar regime with multiple sprays for multiple purposes, hence two sprays per week being somewhat the norm. ie aloe, neem, botanicals, kelp, etc on some sort of rotation based on what your plants want/need. Read em and let the sprayer help them weep (in a good way)!


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## grnhrvstr (Apr 30, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> 2tbl puréed aloe Vera per gallon apply foliar


Ive been doing this for a few weeks now,not just with mary but my whole damn garden with excellent results!My aloe leaves give me about a tablespoon each cuz they not so big yet but just make sure to be careful filleting them.I use a butter knife cuz the skin is so tender but make sure not to get any skin mixed in cuz even after blending at high speeds those little green pieces will clog your shit and piss you off


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## headtreep (Apr 30, 2013)

If you ever get heat stress or any stress at all observed, I've noticed a good aloe foliar is great. Also with a little kelp meal mixed in.


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## sullivan666 (Apr 30, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> 2tbl puréed aloe Vera per gallon apply foliar
> 
> Google 'structured water 2008' and you can see and hear researchers around the world explain much more than pseudoscience! It is kind of long and only a short part around 15 minutes about ag stuff. Most of them are not from North America. If you don't get it after watching that no amount of hand holding will get u there. Structured water for the ladies and veggies = more natural genetic expression. The fish pheno research blew my mind, especially for monocropping like we are doing. Also keep in mind there is A LOT more to the natural systems of earth than all scientists put together can understand/publish. INITY


I googled it and did not find the video, but I found this thread: https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/133940-structured-water.html


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## NickNasty (Apr 30, 2013)

Just a heads up you will probably need a nylon bag or sieve to run the aloe thru before you add it to your sprayer or it will most likely get clogged.


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## headtreep (Apr 30, 2013)

This was a mix up with the label. It says "SoCal Master" but it's actually Gogi OG. Damn stoners! This is a great update for our ROL and No Till thread. Great example there.


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## yankeegreen (May 2, 2013)

Cann said:


> neemresource is worth it.
> 
> if you buy the DTE (down to earth) neem, you will have to use roughly 2x as much in order to achieve the same results. a.k.a. you'll end up spending the same amount of $$ per amount of azadirachtin and crew.
> 
> ...


5 lbs of neem and karanja arrived from MN today so I'll be mixing my first batch of soil this weekend! Thanks all for your help...getting started anyway!


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## greenPoison (May 4, 2013)

hey all in the relal organic soil teachers in here, first i want to thank you all the efforts in here and in the old thread back in icmag forum on bringing down the dollar myths on the cannabis scene now a days, and teaching us all on real botany, the merging of man and nature in the cannabis cultivation community.... im in the other side of the atlantic in Portugal, where mj is not as "free"as it is now in your homeland....in here we dont have any drug war going on ... the plant its not legal but its not a big issue either...so it maybe is more free from the business that only seeks profit over true service to the customers....

im a begginer in growing cannabis, im currently on my second run only, i have a small drawer thingy to grow ... my space is 80*60 cm (almost 3x2 feet) so i dont have a nice space to get large notill pot running on .... my plant's have been growing on bagged soil (biobizz allmix) with bottled nutes (also biobizz) through flowering, but i always hated this thing. i know its a corporative imposed style of cultivation and i'm going to work my soil in this summer to start a real organic living soil cultivar... it's the true way and it's beautiful... thanks to all again for teaching the ones that want to be open minded and free themselves... lettting nature get things done around here!

but as you might expect, here in my country there are only 3 or 4 hidro stores and the sourcing for certified organic products is hard...we r strugling with a financial crisis and investment in passing the word on organic farming is not what it should be but anyways, im want to the a free journey around the countryside the find my own ammendments and minerals and i have some questions that you might answer to the stoner noob here  (i read half of the five hundred pages of the old rols thread, that stuff was soul cleansing and a real comedy festival some times hehe , time well spent i say)

-i cant source kelp so im going to fetch some brown seaweeds from the beach... should i wash, dry and pulverize them before adding to soil and teas?
-my minerals are going to be just bentonite,basalt dust and gypsum- cant source the oyster shell stuff, and most of the stuff .... kind hard when amazon gives u the finger when you try to buy something from the us...
-for the ammendments im going to rely on:
-alfalfa hay for rabbits,crushed crab shells also from the beaches, biological neem powder, fish meal that is used for fishing bait, those minerals, those brown seaweeds i mencioned and bat guano (some questions on this last one though..)..
-blond peat moss from the baltic.. cant find any place that has spaghnum peat
-for aeration perlite... i know that it doesnt stay put but it's what i can get! 
-can i use pro-silicate from grotek instead of dyna gro's product? agsil is out of my reach too heheh..
-we have lots of nettle,dandelion,mallow so botinacal teas are assured... aloe is a but pricey but im going to search deeper for cheap aloe products in here...
-for humus material im going to get 100% EWC from local vermicompost especialists 15 euros 11 pounds, and im starting a 5 gallon compost bin indoors hope it heats up well in this tiny container...

wow sorry for the long post but i hope u understand it... i've learned some much with you all, and i'll make an effort to change some opinions round here, where most of the guys that grow can't live without their bloombastic 0-93-103 just for the last day before the flush....

cheers from portugal , GP


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## Kalyx (May 4, 2013)

Ya bud. Your buds will be cheaper and danker! I am in Europe now and lots of the inputs are growing everywhere I look! Happy hunting. 

Rinse the kelp (brown seaweed) well to get the salts off


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## NickNasty (May 4, 2013)

-i cant source kelp so im going to fetch some brown seaweeds from the beach... should i wash, dry and pulverize them before adding to soil and teas? Yes I would wash and dry and crumble.
-blond peat moss from the baltic.. cant find any place that has spaghnum peat Never tried it but I would think it would be fine.
-can i use pro-silicate from grotek instead of dyna gro's product? agsil is out of my reach too heheh.. Any silicate should be fine I think its the price that most people tend to steer toward specific brands. 
-we have lots of nettle,dandelion,mallow so botinacal teas are assured... aloe is a but pricey but im going to search deeper for cheap aloe products in here... Look for powdered Aloe like freeze dried you will get more for your money.
-for humus material im going to get 100% EWC from local vermicompost especialists 15 euros 11 pounds, and im starting a 5 gallon compost bin indoors hope it heats up well in this tiny container... Don't forget to let your soil sit for a month so the nutrients start to break down and the soil biology starts doing its thing. Also if the compost bin doesn't work look into bokashi < it is and easy and fast way to compost in small spaces and is usually much faster then conventional composting.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

Thanks again for all this info guys---rising moon, head treep, nick nasty, RRog, others that I forgot

My yields are the best they've ever been lately. 

So my next questions are-----


* How often do you apply the dandelion topdress?

How often is on the coconut water/water?

And, can I use clay from my yard in place of these other clays I hear about? It's a brownish/red thick type clay.


*&#8203;Thanks for any answers!


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> I'm glad structured water was brought up. I have some friends that are big proponents of it, mainly for human health vs agriculture. I have other friends who dismiss it as pseudoscience. I haven't done all that much research on it myself, so I'm on the fence. I haven't watched the documentary 'water' yet, but I have done some searches trying to find some legit articles (not testimonials or advertising) about structured water and haven't found much of anything. I found this when looking for opponent's views: http://www.chem1.com/CQ/clusqk.html I don't have enough knowledge of chemistry, but maybe some of you guys can give your thoughts?




Mighty wash has been said to be structured water. Something with the bugs not wanting anything to do with the plant because of the frequency of the water. I'm sure someone can correct me if I'm too far off.


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## greenPoison (May 4, 2013)

thanks, the thing that worried me was that the brown algae that appears in most beaches here isnt _ascophyllum nodosum _i think, am i going to get all those vitamins, auxins and cyktonins??

also can i do a no till run on 3 gallon pots ? was hoping that it could be enough for 2 or 3 cycles with re ammending, would be enough room for 6 plants in the closet this way


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> If you want to add mint as a COMPANION plant, then be all means, transplant it into a small pot, and bury that into your bigger pot, to stop it from aggressively spreading and stealing food from the real crop your trying to grow...



Ok so I opted against the mint thanks for the input guys.

Would marigold be a more suitable companion? or is that something I would want to keep in a separate pot?


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

greenPoison said:


> thanks, the thing that worried me was that the brown algae that appears in most beaches here isnt _ascophyllum nodosum _i think, am i going to get all those vitamins, auxins and cyktonins??
> 
> also can i do a no till run on 3 gallon pots ? was hoping that it could be enough for 2 or 3 cycles with re ammending, would be enough room for 6 plants in the closet this way



I think 15 gal or bigger is the word on the street.

I am having good results in 5 gals reamending, on my 4 plant in one of them. Just not sure how long it will last.


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## greenPoison (May 4, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> -i cant source kelp so im going to fetch some brown seaweeds from the beach... should i wash, dry and pulverize them before adding to soil and teas? Yes I would wash and dry and crumble.
> -blond peat moss from the baltic.. cant find any place that has spaghnum peat Never tried it but I would think it would be fine.
> -can i use pro-silicate from grotek instead of dyna gro's product? agsil is out of my reach too heheh.. Any silicate should be fine I think its the price that most people tend to steer toward specific brands.
> -we have lots of nettle,dandelion,mallow so botinacal teas are assured... aloe is a but pricey but im going to search deeper for cheap aloe products in here... Look for powdered Aloe like freeze dried you will get more for your money.
> -for humus material im going to get 100% EWC from local vermicompost especialists 15 euros 11 pounds, and im starting a 5 gallon compost bin indoors hope it heats up well in this tiny container... Don't forget to let your soil sit for a month so the nutrients start to break down and the soil biology starts doing its thing. Also if the compost bin doesn't work look into bokashi < it is and easy and fast way to compost in small spaces and is usually much faster then conventional composting.


great input man thanks! .. soo the aloe is going to be a bit hard to find... only cosmetic crap... i'll try to find some aloe plants and get the juices out mnham! is bokashi a good substitute for compost ? because the humus mix would be mainly compost i will only have 10 pounds of EWC to start with and i will be mixing 3 c.feet of soil... thanks for the bokashi tip i've heard about it but haven't look that further... yes ill let the soil sit a month after mixing and ill moisten it with ACT to get those bugs to party...

cheers, GP


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## Mohican (May 4, 2013)

Mother's Market has giant aloe leaves in the produce section


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## greenPoison (May 4, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> I think 15 gal or bigger is the word on the street.
> 
> I am having good results in 5 gals reamending, on my 4 plant in one of them. Just not sure how long it will last.


ahh with 15 gallon only 2 girls would fit in there.... 2.5 ounces per plant with only 250w hps is a hard crop to get ...i think ill try four plants in 5 gallons smarties! but thats only when summer's over... right now gotta keep using that allmix stuff till this run is over, .... 

and can i dare to question why is the volume of the container so important? i can think in a bro NPK way that if there isnt enough soil, the plant will be hungry coz she will "deplete" the juice's out no?? coz i really dont mind having small plants if it's that what you mean....heck it's even better for my situation.


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## Mohican (May 4, 2013)

I have seen people use drip feeding for small smart pots to keep the food and moisture coming.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

greenPoison said:


> ahh with 15 gallon only 2 girls would fit in there.... 2.5 ounces per plant with only 250w hps is a hard crop to get ...i think ill try four plants in 5 gallons smarties! but thats only when summer's over... right now gotta keep using that allmix stuff till this run is over, ....
> 
> and can i dare to question why is the volume of the container so important? i can think in a bro NPK way that if there isnt enough soil, the plant will be hungry coz she will "deplete" the juice's out no?? coz i really dont mind having small plants if it's that what you mean....heck it's even better for my situation.


Maybe someone else could elaborate on this? -- I was curious too. I think part if it is like you said, not enough soil/=not enough nutes in long haul.
--was thinking the worms needed room to roam a bit. my smaller buckets seem like they were having an issue with compacting too much on my first run. Why only 2 girls?


I'm trying 10 plants in 2 20?gallon rubbermaids right now. Prlly end up with a few males and train the leftover ladies to fill in the gaps. Anyone see any issues with this?


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## NickNasty (May 4, 2013)

greenPoison said:


> great input man thanks! .. soo the aloe is going to be a bit hard to find... only cosmetic crap... i'll try to find some aloe plants and get the juices out mnham! is bokashi a good substitute for compost ? because the humus mix would be mainly compost i will only have 10 pounds of EWC to start with and i will be mixing 3 c.feet of soil... thanks for the bokashi tip i've heard about it but haven't look that further... yes ill let the soil sit a month after mixing and ill moisten it with ACT to get those bugs to party...
> 
> cheers, GP


Yes just use the bokashi like regular compost and add it with the rest of the amendments.


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## NickNasty (May 4, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Thanks again for all this info guys---rising moon, head treep, nick nasty, RRog, others that I forgot
> 
> My yields are the best they've ever been lately.
> 
> ...


Don't know about the dandelion or clays but I use coconut/aloe water once a week some will use it almost every watering but that can get expensive.


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## Mohican (May 4, 2013)

Here is one Malawi Gold girl in a 30 gallon galvanized trashcan with a bamboo skirt:




I probably could have used less pumice in the bottom:










Cheers,
Mo


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## greenPoison (May 4, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Maybe someone else could elaborate on this? -- I was curious too. I think part if it is like you said, not enough soil/=not enough nutes in long haul.
> --was thinking the worms needed room to roam a bit. my smaller buckets seem like they were having an issue with compacting too much on my first run. Why only 2 girls?
> 
> 
> I'm trying 10 plants in 2 20?gallon rubbermaids right now. Prlly end up with a few males and train the leftover ladies to fill in the gaps. Anyone see any issues with this?


huh im kinda stoney right now didnt remember that you could put more than 1 plant per pot ... hehe guess those stores have to sell those small pots too heh...

so i have space for 2 10 gallon containers...how many plants can i plant in those ?? (sorry but this questions always troubled me)


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## headtreep (May 4, 2013)

I've know people to put to plants in a one pot but I'd stick with one depending on your setup. Cann puts a couple of plants in a 45 gal I'm pretty sure. I grow trees so I use either a 7 gal or 10 for one plant. If you had a little 250hps or something maybe you could use a 10 gal to grow a couple of strains.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

I've seen a cpl nice journals with 4 clones per tub so I thought why not try it with some seeds.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Don't know about the dandelion or clays but I use coconut/aloe water once a week some will use it almost every watering but that can get expensive.


Awesome. I've been doing it about every 2 weeks bc I wasn't sure. It is amazing. 

had some drooping I couldn't pinpoint, not a regular thing around here..anyway the coconut water cleared up what could have been a situation overnight.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

Some results--


Here's a sour apple from clone 5 or 6 weeks of 12/12. In R.O.L.S.


Here's the inside of a finished noug--


------grape goo
---and a bubblegum macro I know I already shared a cpl of these in my thread


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## sullivan666 (May 4, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Awesome. I've been doing it about every 2 weeks bc I wasn't sure. It is amazing.
> 
> had some drooping I couldn't pinpoint, not a regular thing around here..anyway the coconut water cleared up what could have been a situation overnight.


Unfortunately, my temps are high, mid 80s to low 90s, so I foliar everyday..usually at least 2-3 times/week with aloe. I soil drench 2-3 times/week, usually once with coconut water. The heat doesn't seem to be bothering em too much with this regimen. Hopefully get some pics up here later.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

I've looked EVERYWHERE -besides wal mart-for a stinking aloe plant= home depot, lowes, aco, meijer. I don't usually order anything online so I might have to go check walmart(ihatethem)


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## sullivan666 (May 4, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> I've looked EVERYWHERE -besides wal mart-for a stinking aloe plant= home depot, lowes, aco, meijer. I don't usually order anything online so I might have to go check walmart(ihatethem)


Lucky for me, out here in the desert there's aloe everywhere. I just stroll over to my neighbors yard and hack off a few leaves..


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## Kalyx (May 4, 2013)

Nice looking results fattie. I'd like to blaze a fattie of those gorgeous meds! Keep the eye candy coming.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

Thanks kalyx I'd love to share if I could- that's the best part! I'll drop some more pics in a few weeks so as not to clutter the thread.


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## Rising Moon (May 4, 2013)

The dandelion and clays question...

I use a clay called "French Green Clay", I mix it in small amounts with my soil (teaspoon per gallon) and I also foliar spray it, along with aloe and botanical herbs.

When used as a foliar it provides available minerals in balanced proportions directly to the plant. It also creates a barrier when it dries, helping prevent heat stress, pest damage and mold pressure. 

It can also be top dressed in the No-till system. As you can see by the numbers, it is very high in Silica, and moderately high in Calcium, Magnesium, Iron and others...


The dandelions can be used a number of ways, if they are fresh, you can just put them right on top, just not too thick. You can also pick them and dry them in the sun, on a screen. That way you can collect a bunch for top dressing, teas and mixing with your soil.

Its Dandelion season everyone! Lets ALL go out and pick this AMAZING, SILICA RICH, FREE, HERBAL FERTILIZER!

Ill be posting pictures of the bounty I harvest tomorrow after my hike.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 4, 2013)

Thanks for the info as always RM

I did just that, a thing layer of fresh ones. so it looks like I'm good-my neighbors hate the small field I've been growing LOL 

Didn't know it was a good source of silica, that's great to hear.


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## headtreep (May 4, 2013)

*I love using flowers and other botanicals for mulch. Flower power!!! *


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## Rising Moon (May 5, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Didn't know it was a good source of silica, that's great to hear.


Yeah they are amazing plants...

Vitamins A, C and B(s), Iron, Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sulfur 

AND the white sap they contain is highly alkaline and has germicidal, insecticidal and fungicidal properties...

While the Dandelion root is a rich provider of vitamins, minerals, trace minerals, amino acids, natural sugars and starches. The roots are rich in iron, manganese, phosphorous, protein, aluminum and carotene's. They also contain calcium, chromium, cobalt, magnesium, niacin, potassium, riboflavin, silicon, sodium, tin, zinc, and ascorbic acid.

Whew!

Nick named "Natures Pharmacy"


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## yankeegreen (May 5, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Yeah they are amazing plants...
> 
> Vitamins A, C and B(s), Iron, Calcium, Magnesium, Phosphorus, Potassium, Sulfur
> 
> ...


Nice share! Loaded my dandelion concentrate press just last week. https://www.rollitup.org/organics/427826-soil-food-web-gardening-compost-119.html#post9031261


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## jstone1633 (May 5, 2013)

I have a question about compost. I know its best to make your own but I can't right now. If you were to purchase compost would you prefer horse, cow, or chicken manure based?I have access to a local blend of "certified organic" equine based compost and I also have local access to Farmer D and Wholly Cow brands (both can be found on google). Does anyone have any experience with these? I had considered ordering Bu's blend Malibu compost or Buffaloam but would really like to avoid the shipping costs...but I will if it worth it. Any input is appreciated. The local equine based is only $3.00 for 5 gallons.

Also, has anyone tried corn gluten meal in there soil?

Thanks


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## hyroot (May 5, 2013)

Personally I prefer no poop in my compost. If I buy compost I buy Eco Scraps from home depot and general organics ancient forest Alaskan forest humus.


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## Rising Moon (May 5, 2013)

Id go with the local composted horse manure, IF they can assure you it is weed free, and made under good practices and intentions.

Composted Horse manure is known to be just about perfect for most garden plants, although, the quality of the bedding mixed with the initial manure is also a huge factor to consider...

Ask what they use for bedding, is it straw, newspaper, wood shavings/chips, sawdust...?

Clean straw being preferred over sawdust, and news paper and wood chips are the least desirable.

Also, are the horse stalls regularly sprayed for flies? If so that pesticide residue will be in your compost.

As far as certified organic compost goes, the USDA has made this an easy achievement, as long as the compost reaches a certain temperature, and you jump through the hoops/paper work, the cow/chicken/horse manure can come from anywhere, under any practices.
That means manure from animals that ate GMOS, pesticides, fungicides, antibiotics and other prescription drugs.

But as long as you compost them...and they were composted on an organic farm, they all the sudden become organic.

I had great success sourcing FREE local grass fed Alpaca manure last season, and the woman was THRILLED that I wanted to fill my pickup bed. Craigslist Farm/Garden section, seach: manure


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## Mohican (May 5, 2013)

Just stay away from the Kellogg's products. They use human sewage. Full of birth control, other prescription medicine and??? They labeled it as sludge at first, but now they are allowed to call it organic compost! Another bad product is Ironite - they collect it from a Superfund cleanup site. It is also full of lead, mercury, arsenic... Made me so angry. I have used it in my garden for years as an iron supplement


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## hyroot (May 5, 2013)

My brothers buddy has an alpaca farm. Using that guano alone doesn't have much npk but turns plants into ninjas. The apple tree we had. The apples would flip upside down after a guano tea of alpaca. All the mj plants leaves would point so vertical it was rediculous. 

Alpacas are funny looking too. They look like llamas with the head of a teddy bear.


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## Rising Moon (May 5, 2013)

Alpaca and rabbit manure are the ONLY animal manures that you can use raw, and it will not burn your plants. 

The stuff I got smelled good actually, and heated up very nicely after being heaped into a pile for short term storage.


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## jstone1633 (May 5, 2013)

I was also going to throw in a bag of mushroom compost too. Barky Beaver brand to be exact. Would the equine compost be worth it? Is one type better than the other? I was going to use both for the variety. Neither one is that expensive but money is still money. Im trying to build a soil to save money so theres no sense in putting anything in it that won't really benefit it.

Thanks again for any input.


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## yankeegreen (May 5, 2013)

Got my hands dirty this weekend and put together my first few batches for indoor and outdoor use. I started with Cootz's recipe (from icmag, slightly modified) as follows:

About 8 cu/ft batches, using 5 gal buckets:


3.0 buckets peat
2.0 bucket vegetable/kitchen compost
1.0 bucket grass clipping compost
3.0 buckets perlite


1.5 cups Neem meal
0.5 cups Karanja meal
2.0 cups Kelp meal
2.0 cups Crab meal
1.0 cup Alfalfa meal
1.0 cup oyster shell
16 cups rock dust


I've got a 40 gal trash pail with one batch fermenting/cooking/composting and mixed up another 2 batches for a 4x4 outdoor vegetable garden. If all goes well, I'll expand the veggie plot next spring.


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## Rising Moon (May 5, 2013)

I'm getting a couple of my outdoor beds ready as well..

LOVING my front yard right now as its exploding with white clover, red clover, dandelions and various perennial grasses and herbs. 

Anyone with access to a lawn can make really cool home made plant meal very easily...

Simply mow your lawn (that hopefully has LOTS of Clover, Alfalfa, Dandelion and other herbs sown in because...why not!) collect the clippings, and thinly spread them out on a trap, or in this case, I just used my raised beds and sun dry them for a day or two depending. Let them dry just to the point of crispiness while there still nice and green..

 









Then, I just raked them up, and into a 5 gallon bucket: (dont mind the little bits of perlite/coco)



And crushed it up with my hands..(it should powder up pretty easily)



This clover/grass/dandelion meal can now be stored for use indoors/outdoors, for topdressing, teas and also worm food/bedding.

I also managed to gather quite a bit of Dandelions for topdressing a couple of the big outdoor beds...



And made some tea with the flower heads...(I added an airstone after the photo, its always good to aerate your herbal teas..)




Peace everyone!

Happy Spring!



Rising Moon


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## hyroot (May 7, 2013)

I found a patch of dandelions today. Half were dead, no flowers and still standing. The ones with flowers the center pollen area is brown. All the seed pods were brown on both. Looking like its towards the end of its life. Would either of these work for top dress mulch? Or are they too far gone?


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## Stoned Drifter (May 7, 2013)

finally got my no till soil done today.
doing a small grow. my box is 2'lx1.5'wx2.5'h

base mix added up to 1.5 cf
33% a brick of coco 
33% lava rock 
33% llama compost and EWC 

to that i added
neem meal 3/4 cup
kelp meal 3/4 cup
crab meal 3/4 cup 
alfalfa meal 1/2 cup
gypsum 3/4 cup
Mineral mix of rock dust, soft rock phosphate powder and oyster shell flour 4 cups

watered it with some molasses. 

i found aloe vera gel at target by up and up for $3.50. works great!


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## Cann (May 8, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I found a patch of dandelions today. Half were dead, no flowers and still standing. The ones with flowers the center pollen area is brown. All the seed pods were brown on both. Looking like its towards the end of its life. Would either of these work for top dress mulch? Or are they too far gone?


are you using the flowers for a topdress? I just use the greens....so assuming the dandelion still has some green leaves you're good to go...

double check that there is no danger of pesticides/pollution in the area - you can never be too safe in that regard. public parks can be danger for wild foraging...unfortunately


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## hyroot (May 8, 2013)

Cann said:


> are you using the flowers for a topdress? I just use the greens....so assuming the dandelion still has some green leaves you're good to go...
> 
> double check that there is no danger of pesticides/pollution in the area - you can never be too safe in that regard. public parks can be danger for wild foraging...unfortunately



Yes on the top.dress. There is some green on the ones with flowers. They grow wild on an empty lot between a house and a church. kind of in the ghetto . though. There are a bunch of frogs in the moat runoff below. There is some nature there.


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## jubiare (May 9, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> Cann
> 
> 
> 
> ...


^^^ I hear you on the silica.
What could be tried out is horsetail extract/powder/herb, organic one and the best product has to be found. I might purchase some and maybe do a comparison with the potassium silicate

On a general note
Greetings to you all
*This thread has to go sticky no way!*


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## jubiare (May 9, 2013)

Bamboo Silica vs. Horsetail Silica

The first silica available was from the herb horsetail which offers only 5-8% silica, whereas bamboo provides 70% silica. 

But than, it is apparently not soluble in water? At least some powder I found.. I'll keep researching this.. Not sure whether it's worth it


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## hyroot (May 9, 2013)

Came across this for mulch

http://www.weekendgardener.net/garden-plants/mulch-060806.htm


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## Cann (May 9, 2013)

jubiare said:


> *This thread has to go sticky no way!*


I've PMed a few mods in this regard...still haven't heard back - we'll see what happens. This definitely deserves to be sticky...


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## kushking42 (May 9, 2013)

theoretically how much botanicals (horsetail etc) would one need to amend into the soil to provide "enough silica"


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## headtreep (May 9, 2013)

I posted several pics of this on this thread so I thought I would post my last until shit goes down.












Last update on Gogi OG before chop.


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## Rising Moon (May 9, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> theoretically how much botanicals (horsetail etc) would one need to amend into the soil to provide "enough silica"


I would generally say, 1-2 tbs of botanicals per gallon of soil would be more than enough, but I can also see adding much more.

I also add French Green Clay, from Mountain Rose Herbs, at about 1 tbs per gallon of soil, and this has 50% silica as well as many other minerals, and clay is also a soil/nutrient binder and humus builder.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 9, 2013)

used teabags are good for compost right?

Also what are some preventatives you guys use?

I know I like apple cider vinegar for PM prevention. Along with neem oil. Insecticidal soap, nematodes, shrimp shells.

any recipes for a good oreventative bug spray, like rosemary garlic and mint maybe?


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## kushking42 (May 9, 2013)

thanks RM. im guessing these botanicals can be added to a relatively rich mix without worrying about overdoing it?


fattie; fresh cilantro made into a tea is a great bug spray. and ya those te bags will break down with everything else. i toss my coffe grinds with the filter in my pile


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## Rising Moon (May 9, 2013)

The only thing I have seen when I went really heavy on the topdress with dried botanicals was white fuzzy mold.

This could be avoided by thoroughly mixing the herbs in with the soil, and using smaller amounts in succession throughout the season.

The worms in your mix will love these powdered and dried herbs, and I consider them to be my "slow release" fertilizer.


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## fattiemcnuggins (May 9, 2013)

got some cilantro just sprouted now. will give it a whirl.


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## sullivan666 (May 9, 2013)

For the cilantro would you use it just like yarrow or comfrey? Aerate it for 48 hours, add 2 cups of the per gallon?


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## Cann (May 9, 2013)

From master _cootz_ at some point...couldn't find it online but it's written in my notebook...

Take a bundle of cilantro (organic of course), puree it, add to 1 gal h2o, let sit no more than 40 hrs, add 1 cup of this to 15 cups h2o = 1 gallon. add 1/4 cup aloe and 1tsp protekt - spray at lights out every 4 days for pests.


kk may have another recipe  but this one should do the trick


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## headtreep (May 9, 2013)

Pest Control- CC
Grab a bunch of cilantro add it and some water to a blender. Make a slurry. Add to 1gal of water and allow to sit no longer than 48hrs. Add 1 cup 'tea' to 15 cups water = 1gal. Then add 1/4 cup aloe juice and 1tsp protekt. Spray the fuck out of em at lights off.
This is very similar to:
Coot- Cilantro Tea pg 61


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## sullivan666 (May 9, 2013)

I love you guys .


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## headtreep (May 10, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> I love you guys .




Fire it up!!!


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## jubiare (May 10, 2013)

For whoever is looking and is still sceptical

This is the revolution
No more bs and profit base notions that have depleted our lands and especially our mj gardens

No more bottles (for the most part)

No more products derived from the animal slaughtering

No more calmag hungry strains bollocks

Take the ride
Work with companion fungi n microbes
Enjoy lush green plants
Fast growing as if it was hydro
Taste the very finest sublime herb
Switch to life


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## jubiare (May 10, 2013)

And RIU
make this a sticky, we shouldn't even have to ask you really


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## headtreep (May 10, 2013)

It's all just about making things very easy for yourself.. From your local sources especially. Make a great compost and grow great pot. It's pretty straight forward.


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## headtreep (May 10, 2013)

Not sure if this video is redundant on this thread but this sums this thread up pretty much. 

Yeah and those teas (ACT), well................


[video=youtube;PiIeUU8o-mo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiIeUU8o-mo[/video]


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## woody333333 (May 10, 2013)

bigfoot?


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## headtreep (May 10, 2013)

That's me back in high school actually. 

Does anyone use biochar? I made some the other night for a top dress. It's still activating but it's not needed if you are using as a top dress to activate. I do it just to be safe. You apply like you would neem at 10%. Should be great for a slow release of the goods.


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## jubiare (May 10, 2013)

I used it on my current at 5% of my entire media volume
Didn't charge it first
Having some issues.. Some plants pretty yellow N hungry for sure. Had a light mix too, so...

Still having pretty good budding up at 4eeeks
Had the fastest veg this time, for what is related to biochar? 

So not a pro here, just sharing my first steps with biochar and recycled soil

Have you bought a biochar or made it yourself?


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## jubiare (May 10, 2013)

Wrong thread post
Being mental between rols n diy LEDs


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## Green Dragon 2 (May 10, 2013)

Hello Folks,
I need HELP PLEASE..... My work has me doing 8 hrs (Just like everybody else) but my drive is 2 pluse hrs each way I want to do ROLS but I have nothing to start with can somebody give me some help with starting up I have wormcasting horse droping that are aged 3 bags of roots organics soil 3 bags I know I will need more I have 10 gal grow bags ect. But what else should I use to make my soil. THANKS for any help. GD2


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## sullivan666 (May 10, 2013)

headtreep said:


> That's me back in high school actually.
> 
> Does anyone use biochar? I made some the other night for a top dress. It's still activating but it's not needed if you are using as a top dress to activate. I do it just to be safe. You apply like you would neem at 10%. Should be great for a slow release of the goods.


I needed some extra aeration in my soil and Rrog suggested biochar so I made up a bit outta cowboy lump charcoal...its actually fun to smash the shit to bits with your feet/hammer... I soaked it with EWC and Alfalfa for 12 hours and mixed it in..works damn good. Never considered using it for top dress but I may do so in the future.

My ladies are looking so good right now...almost 5 weeks into flower (pics soon). Wiped out most of the thrips with neem oil and a couple daddy longlegs that took up residence in the tent..I've actually got to see them catch a few and spin em up which was awesome. Gonna do a cilantro tea soon to get the rest of em out.


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## Green Dragon 2 (May 10, 2013)

Sorry forgot rabbit droping and another ideal what do you think of adding cuttle bone (ground up) I have a friend that has a lot of birds and he buys it by the pound and and has a lot of little pices that he cann't use. GD2


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## hyroot (May 10, 2013)

Can I use coconut water straight from a coconut or what ever? Or do you have to filter it or what not? I was just at the market down the street and they have coconuts there for a $1 each. I figure that could save some loot. Coconut water and powder cost more than buying bottled enzymes from the hydro shop in the long run.


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## jubiare (May 11, 2013)

Yep I think that's 1 x 14 water as from CC if I remember right? Someone else will chime in.
And of course if it's enzymes what you are after get into those SST
From the master:
Sprouted Seed Teas (SST) v2.0

Dr. Robert Faust (BioAg) has described Fulvic acid as a catalyst for catalysts as it assists in enzyme reactions

Enzymes are catalysts as we know so I began doing the weekly dose of Fulvic acid in conjunction with the SST application.

Give that one a try for a couple of weeks and see what you think about the results...

CC


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## jubiare (May 11, 2013)

Bioag ful-power is def the only fulvic worth the game

Most of other products come from leonardite, which is a joke compared to the natural cold extraction process at bioag
The dry flower liquid gold comes also from an extraction process, yet there's heat and chemical involved so still the bioag is a superior product


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## kushking42 (May 11, 2013)

has anyone combined ful-power and an enzyme tea in the same application?


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## jstone1633 (May 11, 2013)

Can someone give me the run down on coconut water? I see it mentioned a lot but cant find a clear description of what kind to get and how much to use. Is it only beneficial as a foliar?


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## hyroot (May 11, 2013)

jstone1633 said:


> Can someone give me the run down on coconut water? I see it mentioned a lot but cant find a clear description of what kind to get and how much to use. Is it only beneficial as a foliar?


Its enzymes, catalyst, carbs and higher amount of minerals than molasses. 1cup coconut water to 15 cups of water. But not sure of ratio straight from a coconut. Any organic / pure coconut water will do. Powder is cheaper. Coconuts are even cheaper. 

Molasses is better as a catalyst for compost teas and chelating agent.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2013)

This is how we no till around my parts.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2013)

That was a new soil that never cooked but for a week or so and only applied ACT twice. This is the experiment I was running with the blumats. I topped dressed compost and a few herbs here and there. I think I only hit it with an herbal tea once during flower and did a few aloe/fulpower/coconut etc drenches. 

Top shelf meds imo.


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## hyroot (May 11, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Top shelf meds imo.


id like to be the judge of that lol


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## Rising Moon (May 12, 2013)

I dont like to foliar with coconut because I get little spots on my leaves after they dry...

I do however, use it at about 1:15-1:10 ratio when I water.

It feels right to hit them once during veg, once during the transition to flower, and once more during peak flower. Otherwise, it gets expensive... and botanicals/sprouts fill the void.


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## Cann (May 12, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> has anyone combined ful-power and an enzyme tea in the same application?



yup, all the time. i usually go 1/2 strength with the ful power when combined w/ enzymes...but you could probably use it full strength. the enzyme tea has no real humic content...so i don't see the harm of adding some humic/fulvic acids. 

i wouldn't add ful-power to an ACT though...


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## headtreep (May 12, 2013)

I use ful-power with barley and coconut. I always have a few 5 gal jugs with mixes I use pretty much right away. The spots don't bother me and since I foliar with the same drench and always using IPMs those spots come right off with the neem mix.


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## headtreep (May 12, 2013)

The coconut may or may not help but it doesn't hurt that for sure when I foliar. It's just a pain to have so many different mixes. Just to let you know it was suggested NOT to foliar with coconut cause the best benefit is through a drench. I'm busy so this works for me.

Everyone has their little twist on things and I always go a little light with anything typically.


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## sullivan666 (May 12, 2013)

Happy mother's day


cover crop comin in

Tomato baby I'm priming for the outdoors

Found a jalapeño sprout in the worm bin, figured I'd give it a shot


----------



## Cann (May 12, 2013)

Green Dragon 2 said:


> Hello Folks,
> I need HELP PLEASE..... My work has me doing 8 hrs (Just like everybody else) but my drive is 2 pluse hrs each way I want to do ROLS but I have nothing to start with can somebody give me some help with starting up I have wormcasting horse droping that are aged 3 bags of roots organics soil 3 bags I know I will need more I have 10 gal grow bags ect. But what else should I use to make my soil. THANKS for any help. GD2



how many worm castings do you have? how aged is the horse manure? 

are the 10 gallon bags fabric or are they plastic? 

do you have access to hydro stores? what about feed/farm stores? how much $$ are you looking to invest? is this for an outdoor or indoor operation? 

the more you tell us the more we can help...trying to make the transition to ROLS as smooth as possible. 


also, what is cuttle bone? are we talking cuttlefish bone? (seems super obscure lol) or did you mean cattle? 

rabbit poop is gold - one of the few manures that can be applied immediately to plants without burning.


----------



## Cann (May 12, 2013)

jubiare said:


> Sprouted Seed Teas (SST) v2.0
> 
> Dr. Robert Faust (BioAg) has described Fulvic acid as a catalyst for catalysts as it assists in enzyme reactions
> 
> ...


thanks jubiare for bringing this up...there is an updated SST (sprouted seed tea) recipe from old master cootz - he has been on a hiatus recently and returned to us a few days ago with this new recipe:

Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0

Jon Stika of _Brew Your Own Magazine describes malt as "barley that has been sprouted to the point where enzymes are produced that will convert its starchy interior to sugar." After the grain has been malted, the sugar is fermented by yeast to make beer. 

This is an accurate overview of an article he wrote for those who want to make their own malt and here's the Reader's Digest version:

Weigh out 2 oz. of Barley seed and remove any foreign matter by the seeds into a large jar and fill it half-way with water and agitate to wash the barley. Pour off loose husks & dirt that float to the top. Drain in a colander. Repeat until everything has been removed.

Soak the seeds in water for 8 - 10 hours. Drain the seeds and weigh after completely draining the water off. Assuming you started with 56 grams, you want to hit a minimum of 84 grams at the end of these processes. 

Let the Barley rest for 8 - 10 hours and then soak for another 8 hours, drain and weigh. Repeat if necessary but that's not too unlikely.

Take a piece of cloth and you want to use something as 'raw' as possible like hemp cloth, organic cotton, linen, canvas, flax, etc. - just check with a large fabric store. If you buy a piece that is a square it probably helps or doesn't. 

Wet your cloth, wring out and fold it 2 times. During the rest cycles this is where you want to let the seeds rest. You want moisture surrounding the seeds but not water.

Once you hit 84+ grams, spread your seeds again in the middle of this folded piece of fabric, place that in a brown paper bag - 55F - 65F ambient temperatures will move this along quickly.

When the shoots inside the seed have grown the length of the seed you're done. You're not growing sprouts but rather activating the enzymes and the compounds in the endosperm as described in the post above.

Take these seeds and put them in a blender and some water and get it to a puree to the extent possible. Using 56 grams to start will give enough puree to make 5 gallons of tea. 

Water your plants with this diluted tea. This will give you far, far more enzymes than the straight sprouting method. One thing about beer brewers is that they live & die by enzyme levels extracted from seeds and this article is cited on several home brew forums.

This is definitely the way to use Barley and other seeds..._


----------



## Cann (May 12, 2013)

and now the science behind SST v. 2.0 - for those who are interested in a light read. posted by cootz, originally by R.G. Stanley and W.L. Butler

coot - _"I didn't know where else to put this and it's not worth a new thread so that's why it landed here. Have Von or another moderator move it to an appropriate thread.__

This is the science that is important to understand for my next post that explains how to manipulate the germinating process to maximize enzyme production in the seed's endosperm."_

*Life Processes of the Living Seed*

by R.G. Stanley & W.L. Butler

"The embryo in a seed draws on its endosperm for the nutrients it needs to germinate and grow. A delicate balance of internal conditions regulates its life processes. The living seed is able to incorporate small molecules and simple substances such as glucose, phosphorus, and sulfurinto complex chemical units of a cell. These organized parts are the cell wall and the protoplasm, which contains the cell nucleus. Enzymes act as the go-between in these conversions and building processes.

The energy for this work comes from the breakdown, or catabolism, of some of the cell's chemical components, usually by combining them with oxygen in the process called respiration. Most of the seed components from which the enzymes of the protoplasm and cell walls form new cells can be classed as proteins, fats, carbohydrates, organic acids, and amino acids. Thus the seed lives as long as its outside environment (against which its seed-coat helps protect it) and internal environment maintain active enzymes and a good balance of chemical substances. Only under these conditions can the embryo, the result of the fusion of the sperm and egg nuclei, produce new cells and a healthy plant.

Moisture, temperature, and gases, particularly carbon dioxide and oxygen, can affect markedly the enzymes and chemical components of the living seed. Fungi, insects, bacteria, chemicals, or light can diminish or destroy the seed's power to germinate. Many of the same factors, in the right concentration or combination, can enhance the life processes of the seed. The water content of the developing seed is similar to that of any actively growing tissue about 70 to 80%. As the seed reaches maturity and the stage at which it is shed from the plant, however, its moisture drops rapidly.

How much water remains at maturity depends on the species of the plant and the environment in which the seed matures. When seeds are artificially extracted from the fruit, their moisture content is affected by the method of extraction and the storage conditions. Seeds of the maple, wild rice, and orange illustrate the critical role of the water level in seeds at their time of harvest and during storage. The silver maple (_Acer saccharinum) sheds its seeds in June at a moisture content of about 58%. The seed dies if the water content falls below 30%. Seeds of sugar maple (Acer saccharum), however, mature in September, contain less than 30% water, and can be air dried to about 5% without lowering germination.

Some seeds, such as wild rice (Zigania aquatica), must actually be stored in water at 32° F. for maximum germination. They lose their ability to germinate if they are exposed to air for a few days. Lela V. Barton, working at the Boyce Thompson Institute of Plant Research, Yonkers, N.Y., showed that citrus seeds stored at room temperature are injured if their high content of water drops. Orange seeds are injured by drying to 25% moisture. Grapefruit seeds became inactive when dried below 51%.

How the external environment in which a seed develops affects its moisture content is illustrated by a study of seed of ponderosa pine. N. T. Mirov, of the U.S. Forest Service, found that seed from trees growing at 2,000 to 3,000 feet contained 18% more moisture than those at 6,000 to 7,000 feet, although he dried all the seeds under the same conditions.

This lower water-holding capacity of seeds from higher elevations supports Nicolai A. Maximov's theory that plant tissues that must survive severe cold usually contain less water than those of warmer climates. The mechanism by which the living seed is protected under such varying conditions of development can be related to their chemical composition. Research at the Boyce Thompson Institute compared seeds high in fat content (pine and peanuts) with those low in fat and high in carbohydrate (tomato and onion). The amount of water held by seeds stored at the same temperature and relative humidity fell as the amount of fat and oil increased. Thus the ability of tissues of a low water content to withstand cold was related to their chemical composition, especially the amount of fat in them.

High temperatures may kill the seed, too. The seeds with a high content of water are less tolerant of high temperatures. Ponderosa pine and Douglas-fir seeds remained viable after heating at 150° F. for 3 hours when they contained only 7% of water. With a water content of 60%, the seeds were rapidly killed by temperatures above 110°. If seeds are stored with a high moisture content, internally produced heat may raise the temperature in the storage container and shorten the lifespan of the seed. This damage, as that from externally applied heat, results from changes in cell metabolism. The breakdown and conversion of chemical components and seed protein by enzymes is made easier by an abundance of water and is accelerated at high temperature.

Although enzymes are present in dry seed, they are activated only on movement of water into the seed. As the temperature increases, the rate of metabolism enzyme activity also increases. One measurable product of this metabolism is the amount of carbon dioxide given off and oxygen taken up. A rapidly metabolizing seed has a higher gas exchange rate than a quiescent seed. If the energy made available by respiration is not used in growth, it is liberated as heat, and the temperature of the stored seed goes up. Water content, one of the most important factors in seed viability, therefore cannot be considered alone.

Variations in water content influence the seed's metabolic activities, including respiration, its temperature, and its ability to germinate. Increasing the amount of water in a seed above 10 to 15% strongly activates the cell enzymes. In stored sunflower and flax seeds, respiration rates increased with increasing water content up to 50%. The temperature inside the seeds increased after the increase in respiration. On heating at temperatures greater than 120°, the living cell protein coagulates irreversibly, just as an egg hardens on heating. If the water content is too high, large amounts of the chemicals required for growth will be used up. The seeds will then be unable to germinate when they are placed under proper conditions.

Removal of too much water from the seed also causes death. The optimal water content of stored seed at 32° to 40° has been determined for most agriculturally important species. The moisture content of the storage container is usually regulated by the use of chemical desiccants, such as calcium chloride or solutions of sulfuric acid, which maintain a constant relative humidity in the closed compartment or storage jar.

To maintain maximum viability, most seeds are stored at a fixed moisture content and at a fixed temperature, usually between 32° and 41°. In this temperature range, water in the seeds does not freeze, but enzyme activities are retarded. Although the optimum storage water content and water-holding capacity may differ in seeds of different species, the universal nature of enzymes controlling metabolism in all living cells establishes the narrow temperature limits. When enzyme activities are drastically reduced at low temperatures, the chemical substrates are preserved in a form essential to maintaining the maximum germinative capacity of the stored seed.

It is possible to store seeds at temperatures below 32° if the water content is low enough. Temperatures as low as minus 320°, the temperature of liquid nitrogen, do not injure wheat embryos with less than 10% of water, but kill embryos containing 50% of water. So far, the technique of storing seeds at very low temperatures is merely an experimental laboratory procedure, which is neither necessary nor economically feasible.

Regardless of storage temperature or moisture content of the seed, as long as the protoplasm remains alive the enzymes continue some chemical activities, and respiratory changes occur. Only the most sensitive instruments can detect these changes. Changes in organic compounds also occur with the uptake of oxygen and release of carbon dioxide in living, but non-growing, seeds. If these seeds are germinated, the rate of respiration increases, and the chemical changes, uptake of oxygen, and release of carbon dioxide are easy to detect.

By following respiratory changes over extended periods in the quiescent seed and comparing them to changes in the early phases of germination, we can compute more precisely the amount of gas exchange in stored seed. The gas atmosphere surrounding mature seeds can determine if the seeds remain alive. If a container of seeds is evacuated and the oxygen pressure is reduced, the seeds keep better than in air. Lack of oxygen retards respiration. Some seeds are short lived in air even at low temperatures. Often they can be kept alive for many years in an atmosphere of nitrogen or hydrogen at temperatures near 40°.

Seeds planted too deeply in soil, where little oxygen is present, will not live. As the depth of planting increases, the available oxygen and seed survival decrease. Wet or poorly drained soils also lack oxygen and inhibit the living processes of the seed. Most seeds immersed in water will die unless air is bubbled through the water. A shortage of oxygen usually kills the seed when the temperature or respiration is high. This happens because enzymes need oxygen to produce energy for growth of the embryo. The energy is released when the enzymes combine oxygen with various cell compounds.

Sometimes, however, high levels of oxygen are not required by the living cell to obtain energy from its chemical compounds. Some seeds have an abundance of the anaerobic enzymes, which function without oxygen. These enzymes produce enough energy for certain life processes. Rice seeds (Oryza), for example, do not require much oxygen to function. The cells of the embryo and seedling have a system of anaerobic enzymes and a special kind of respiration that requires little oxygen. Seeds of rice, and of a few other plants, therefore can remain viable and germinate under water that contains too little oxygen for the survival of most seeds.

Carbon dioxide, the end product of respiration, also has marked effects on seed viability. If it accumulates inside the seed or in the soil environment surrounding the seed, injury may result. The role of carbon dioxide is difficult to study, because gas concentrations inside and outside the seed may differ widely and the effects vary with the temperature. Research has shown, however, that the activity of most oxidative, energy-releasing enzymes is reduced by high levels of carbon dioxide.

Fifteen years ago this inhibiting effect was thought to be the result of the dissolving of carbon dioxide in the embryo cell sap and higher acidity. We now recognize that living cells have many natural systems for buffering and counteracting such changes. Accumulation of an enzyme product, such as carbon dioxide, in the living cell slows down the enzyme that produces the product. When seeds are stored for a long time, factors that increase the carbon dioxide around them frequently must be controlled to assure maximum viability.

Fungi and bacteria can produce large amounts of carbon dioxide. These micro-organisms commonly occur on and in seeds. They, too, require water to grow, and drying the seed to a low moisture inhibits their activity. Bacteria and fungi also contain enzymes, which metabolize and convert chemical compounds. They usually affect the chemicals on the seed-coat or in the seed.

Through respiration, micro-organisms produce energy, which may raise the temperature and cause the death of the seeds. Grains of stored wheat, for example, often appear to respire at a high rate. Actually, most of the carbon dioxide and heat is produced by micro-organisms growing inside the grain and not by the wheat embryos. Micro-organisms may have many other effects. Some fungi or bacteria produce chemicals that harm the embryo. Some may produce compounds or excrete enzymes that soften the seed-coat, so that air and water diffuse into the seed and hasten its metabolism and loss of viability.

Others may metabolize and exhaust the seed's storage compounds. Old seeds and seeds that are stored under unsuitable conditions of moisture and temperature are particularly susceptible to attack by micro-organisms, usually to the detriment of the seed. The seed-coat therefore often is treated with a chemical disinfectant before it is stored. Certain other chemical compounds inside and outside the seed may affect viability and germinative capacity. By analyzing seeds before and after storage under different conditions, we have detected several compounds that help keep quiescent seeds alive.

Enzymes, such as catalase, peroxidase, and cytochrome oxidase, have been found to be good indexes of seed viability. The activity of respiratory enzymes of this type, which add oxygen to a compound or remove hydrogen from it, is easily determined. A dye is placed on an embryo. If these oxidative-reductive enzymes are active they will add hydrogen to the dye and convert it to another color. Triphenyl tetrazolium chloride is one dye commonly used in this assay. The use of this and other biochemical tests of viability are discussed later.

Unsaturated fatty acids in oily seeds are a good index of viability. When a large percentage of the unsaturated fatty acids are oxidized or saturated with hydrogen, the seeds become rancid, and viability decreases. The ability of seeds of Jeffrey pine to germinate after storage was found to be related to the content of linolenic acid. As this acid is saturated with hydrogen and changed to linoleic or oleic acid, the ability of the stored seed to germinate goes down. The accumulation of citric and malic acids in lentil bean seeds during storage is recognized as beneficial for germination. In cabbage seeds stored at 41°, enzymes convert the soluble sugars to acids. These changes also improved seed viability. If too much carbohydrate and protein are broken down, however, viability is reduced.

Old seeds, which show marked decreases in non-soluble carbohydrate or protein, germinate poorly. The breakdown or coagulation of protein in old seeds may advance so far as to modify the proteinpresent in the nucleus. When that occurs, the seeds usually die. If such seeds do germinate, they frequently produce mutant plants. Corn grown from 5-year-old seeds showed many of the same mutations caused by X-rays and gamma rays.

Thus proper maintenance of the life processes of quiescent seed assures not only maximum viability but also the transmittance of desired characteristics from the parent plant to the offspring. Newly developed analytical techniques and instruments are beginning to clarify the role of such compounds as hormones, inhibitors, and light-sensitive pigments in seeds. The endosperm of some seeds containshormone like substances, which the embryo absorbs during development and germination. Because of the suspected role of hormones in maintaining the viability and stimulating growth, many investigators have added hormone like chemicals to seeds.

Most of the reports on treatment of seeds with synthetic growth substances were published between 1937 and 1946. Of 250 studies surveyed by Willem Kruyt in 1954, only 33% reported positive results. Poor experimental design was the cause of some conflicting reports. Many problems must be considered when we attempt to demonstrate that hormones are essential to seed viability and growth. The seed-coat may act as a physical barrier to the absorption of externally added hormones. The chemical added may be in a form that the seed cannot metabolize. Or the seed may contain sufficient naturalhormone so that added growth substance will not be effective. Although some form of plant hormone probably is involved in germination, its role has not been demonstrated conclusively.

Inhibitors, including many compounds that occur naturally in living seeds, keep the seeds dormant until conditions are favorable for germination. One such compound in tomato fruits prevents premature germination of their seeds. Some seeds contain compounds that enforce dormancy until there is enough water in the soil to leach the inhibitors out of the seed. The concentration of such inhibitors diffusing out of seeds or roots may be great enough to prevent germination if seeds are sown too close together or too close to other plants. But these same inhibitors, reduced to sufficiently low concentration, may stimulate germination. Many of these inhibitors are lactones; parasorbic acid and coumarin are two examples. They apparently prevent germination by inactivating certain enzymes necessary for elongation of the radicle.

Light-Sensitive compounds are studied in the laboratory with a spectrophotometer. Spectroscopic studies have the advantage that they nondestructively follow chemical changes occurring in intact seeds. Cytochrome oxidase and cytochrome c, two light-absorbing enzymes associated with respiration, can be measured in seeds by this technique. These enzymes are oxidized as the seed imbibes water. The higher oxidation state is related to the increase in respiration that occurs during the uptake of water. Spectrometry has also shown that the essential yellow carotene pigments are formed in the cotyledonsof certain legumes before the radicle emerges.

The growth of many seeds and plants is affected by light in the red part of the spectrum. The pigment that mediates these effects was extracted from seeds and in seedlings in 1959 by a group of Department scientists Sterling B. Hendricks, H. W. Siegelman, K. H. Norris, and W. L. Butler.

It is a soluble protein present in cells in very low concentrations. This pigment acts as an enzyme in some reaction so basic to plant development that it controls germination of certain seeds and several other phenomena of the growth and development in plants. The pigment exists in two forms. One absorbs red light with an absorption maximum at wavelength of 660mµ (millimicron). The other absorbs far-red light at a maximum of 730mµ. When the pigment absorbs light in one form, it is converted to the other chemical form.

Many seeds are stimulated to germinate by light. Red light at a wavelength of 660mµ is most effective in promoting germination of lettuce seed. Far-red light, 730mµ, inhibits the stimulating effects of red light. The pigment controls the germination of such light-sensitive seeds by its response to light. Red light puts the pigment in the far-red absorbing form (P730). This change permits germination to proceed. If the red light is followed by far-red light, the pigment is returned to its red-absorbing form (P660), and germination is inhibited. Work with young seedlings and seeds has shown that in the dark the pigment exists in the P660 form. For this reason, germination of those seeds does not occur without light.

The control of germination by the photo-responsive pigment is an example of a cellular mechanism that keeps the seed dormant until conditions for survival are favorable. A light-requiring seed buried deeply in the soil will not germinate until it is uncovered enough to allow light to reach it. It need not be completely bare, however, because only very low light energy is required. Knowledge of the role of this pigment in maintenance of the living seed explains many seemingly unrelated observations.

For example, seeds of birch will not germinate on the forest floor beneath a tree canopy, but they will germinate in an opening that receives direct sunlight. We now recognize a likely reason. Probably the red wavelengths are absorbed out of light filtered through green foliage while far-red, inhibiting light is transmitted.

We have seen that keeping seeds alive requires the consideration of many important physical and chemical factors. Details of the changes of simple organic constituents and respiratory processes of quiescent seeds have long been known. Information about complex organic compounds and seed hormones is just unfolding. Other information and an understanding of facts already known must be sought. We know enough about the manipulation of storage environments to minimize undesirable changes in most seeds for one or several years. Yet many so-called short-lived seeds do not retain their viability even under the best known procedures. Perhaps the new research techniques and hypotheses will provide better ways to lengthen the lifespan and increase the germinative ability of the living seed."

_somewhat of a thread hijack...but relevant nonetheless


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## Cann (May 12, 2013)

and this:







Teaming with Nutrients: _The Organic Gardener's Guide to Optimizing Plant Nutrition_ by Jeff Lowensfels

Forward by Dr. Mike Amaranthus, Mycorrhizal Applications, Inc.

Nice images using an electron microscope throughout the book - i.e. well supported.

CC


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## headtreep (May 12, 2013)

Thanks for posting that Cann. I saw that on the mag too the other day. I need to take a break from researching plant breeding and look into that.


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## jstone1633 (May 12, 2013)

jubiare said:


> Bioag ful-power is def the only fulvic worth the game
> 
> Most of other products come from leonardite, which is a joke compared to the natural cold extraction process at bioag
> The dry flower liquid gold comes also from an extraction process, yet there's heat and chemical involved so still the bioag is a superior product


Im trying to order Ful-Power online but every pic shows it says humic acid on the front label right above where it says Ful-Power. Is this the right stuff? I thought this was just fulvic acid?


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## NickNasty (May 12, 2013)

jstone1633 said:


> Im trying to order Ful-Power online but every pic shows it says humic acid on the front label right above where it says Ful-Power. Is this the right stuff? I thought this was just fulvic acid?


Its fulvic they just put humic because fulvic is not a nutrient.


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## jubiare (May 13, 2013)

Yep also something to do with states in which the"fulvic" isn't approved or something like that?


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## kushking42 (May 13, 2013)

seems like the new enzyme recipe is a bit more involved than the old one


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## headtreep (May 13, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> seems like the new enzyme recipe is a bit more involved than the old one


For sure. Like a more to add to my already big plate. We shall see......


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## Cann (May 13, 2013)

I'm sure cootz has a reason for it being more involved....maximum enzyme yield. 

if i'm not mistaken, cootz got the new recipe from reading articles about brewing - brewers are obsessed w/ getting maximum enzyme yield from grain - their jobs depend on it to an extent - so i'm sure there is a lot of science behind the new recipe. just look at the little blurb I c/p'ed a page or so ago...the tip of the iceberg

a bit more involved is a pain in the ass...we'll see if the results are different for regular enzyme teas vs the updated recipe...


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## headtreep (May 13, 2013)

You beta testing Cann? Cause I'm taking a break from sprout teas this week, lol. Too much going on right now. Looks like a fuckin lab haha.


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## headtreep (May 14, 2013)

These are spread on this thread but he is a nice compilation of products that WORK!

Products I use often for IPM, nutes, etc:


























I used to party with coco libre too but with all these powders I like them for storage purposes. Powder coconut is great too.


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## Cann (May 14, 2013)

lol i have almost every single one of those things in my house....

do you foliar w/ the karanja oil? i have been having issues getting the ahimsa neem oil to emulsify properly...do you use dr. bronners or potassium silicate as your emulsifier?


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## headtreep (May 14, 2013)

Yep always with those 3. I switch off and even mix them up. Emulsify with the silicate. I do 5ml Karanja and then 5 ml protekt and mix those 2 first in glass. It makes like a hollandaise sauce (that's when you know you got it right). Then you add your yellow sauce (karanja and silica) lol to 1 gal of cold water 68-75f ish. That should do you just fine. Silica makes for a better emulsifier imo but it won't hurt to add a little Dr. Bonners if you wanted to. I've been doing those Neem IPM methods for over a year now and just added those Dr. Bonners prob 8 months back for diversity. No pests ever.


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## headtreep (May 14, 2013)

I use the Dr Bronners at 5 ml per gal to if using alone. You can see my crap writing on the bottles lol. I don't use more than 5 ml a gal of any of those oils but you could if you had an outbreak. I would double up personally but don't take my advice without researching first.


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## Kalyx (May 14, 2013)

Nice HT. 


MODS sticky sticky sticky eh?!!! somebody anybody who really respects real organics


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## sunni (May 14, 2013)

, thanks for the demand, you could ask nicer next time


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## headtreep (May 14, 2013)

That would be really cool if this thread be came a sticky but I'm not sure how it works on RIU if someone wants to enlighten me.


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## sunni (May 14, 2013)

headtreep said:


> That would be really cool if this thread be came a sticky but I'm not sure how it works on RIU if someone wants to enlighten me.


i can see if it qualify's and than i can do it if it does just dont appreciate being demanded like that


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## headtreep (May 14, 2013)

sunni said:


> i can see if it qualify's and than i can do it if it does just dont appreciate being demanded like that


Appreciate that sunni. Nice to meet you and thanks for your support!! We worked hard on this one.


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## headtreep (May 14, 2013)

Replies: 531
Views: 12,381
 created 3-10-2013

That's impressive. We did an outstanding job everyone!!!


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## sullivan666 (May 14, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Yep always with those 3. I switch off and even mix them up. Emulsify with the silicate. I do 5ml Karanja and then 5 ml protekt and mix those 2 first in glass. It makes like a hollandaise sauce (that's when you know you got it right). Then you add your yellow sauce (karanja and silica) lol to 1 gal of cold water 68-75f ish. That should do you just fine. Silica makes for a better emulsifier imo but it won't hurt to add a little Dr. Bonners if you wanted to. I've been doing those Neem IPM methods for over a year now and just added those Dr. Bonners prob 8 months back for diversity. No pests ever.


Excellent info...wasn't sure how well my neem oil sprays were emulsifying either..never thought about mixing the neem and silica in its own glass then adding it...I might add some bronners too since I have some already..I have eucalyptus bronners, would that work?


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## headtreep (May 14, 2013)

I'm not sure how eucalyptus reacts to plants so I would explore that one. Personally I'd stick with the neem alone for now but that's up to you. Maybe you can teach us. I use the mint and lavender. I like the hemp for shampoo hehe.


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## dl290485 (May 15, 2013)

Eucalyptus kills insects. I wanted to kill cockroaches without using a poisonous spray (because of a baby in the house) so i mixed some pure oil up with a little water and sprayed it straight on them and some died immediately, others died shortly afterwards. 
Another time I had some kind of infestation on a small Grevilea tree I had potted in my back yard. It was covered in tiny white dots and had little flying dots around it. I actually don't know what they were but they were growing by the day and were going to smother the whole thing so I made a mix of eucalyptus and water and sprayed it on a couple days in a row and by the end of the week they were gone. The tips of the leaves curled a little bit and went a bit brittle but it pulled through and I still have the tree.

So from what I know it will fight bugs but will also burn some plants- each to their own extent i'm assuming. I don't know what dose is useful but I did it really strong like maybe 1 to 20.


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## hyroot (May 15, 2013)

^^^^ Roaches hate neem oil spray. Works better than raid. Since it biodegrades in a day, you have to spray neem more often. They don't like simple green either but that stains. What ever Suffocates them. 

For plants all bad bugs hate good compost ( no poop). I don't have a single bug in my grow except for maybe predatory mites.


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## Cann (May 15, 2013)

sunni said:


> , thanks for the demand, you could ask nicer next time



 I sent a few very cordial PM's to a few of the organic mods (malignant, potroast, budnugbong) a couple weeks ago and haven't heard back...shoulda PM'ed you lol. 

this would be an awesome sticky, along w/ the official vermicomposters thread. VC is an integral part of most folks' organic soil recipes, so it deserves its spot at the top of the page. 

IMO we could lose a few of the tea and veganic stickies....but thats just my 2 cents. then again matt rize is a mod so that probably won't happen any time soon lol


please, please sunni - make this a sticky kiss-ass

how's that for asking nicely? 


edit: "*

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to sunni again."

*


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## sullivan666 (May 15, 2013)

Gonna stick with the neem and hit the kitchen with it too...got some roaches that hitched a ride with me when I moved from Long Beach...thought maybe they would die out, but they're still around.

I posted this in the VC thread, but anyone here using bokashi want to give a lithe rundown of how you made your bucket? I know its a simple setup but I'm just looking for better ideas.


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## sullivan666 (May 15, 2013)

Also, just got Teaming with Nurtients and Worms eat my garbage from Amazon...free shipping on orders over $25, which these 2 together is like $25.9something. Good deal considering most book stores have Teaming with Nurtients at $25.


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## Cann (May 15, 2013)

teaming with nutrients is in my cart on amazon right now 

my bokashi setup consists of a 5 gallon bucket w/ holes drilled in the bottom, placed inside of a 6 gallon bucket w/ spigot (can purchase at a homebrew store for around $10). then there is your typical 5 gallon bucket lid to assure proper anaerobic conditions...food scraps get collected in a smaller bin (repurposed kitchen pot w/ lid) and then once the pot is full I dump it into the bokashi bucket and add the bokashi grain. this keeps me from having to open the bokashi lid every time I have a few food scraps to get rid of..those 5 gallon lids can be a pain in the ass! 

after the bucket is full i let it sit in the sun for a few weeks and then start digging around and feeding the goodies to my worms/incorporating into my thermal compost pile. i dilute the runoff juice w/ lots of h2o (i forget the proper dilution rate) and apply it to my veggies/raised beds outdoors. pretty nice setup overall..and smells much better than you would imagine an anaerobic bucket of food would smell...


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## headtreep (May 15, 2013)

Smells like pickles. I used some juice from that and my worm bin the other day without dilution only to find very very happy plants. I would think it gets diluted anyhow with those blumats always dripping fresh water. 

Blumats Cann, thank me later!


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## Cann (May 15, 2013)

god...how much do you think it would cost to setup blumats for 2 flower tents - one that is 8x8 and another 4x8....usually around 30 or 40 pots, 90+ plants...

how does the water pressure work also...i haven't even looked into them honestly...just another thing to layer on top of all the shit i have going lol...


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## headtreep (May 15, 2013)

Cann said:


> god...how much do you think it would cost to setup blumats for 2 flower tents - one that is 8x8 and another 4x8....usually around 30 or 40 pots, 90+ plants...
> 
> how does the water pressure work also...i haven't even looked into them honestly...just another thing to layer on top of all the shit i have going lol...



Yeah Cann I have a few chips invested in them and feel they are something that I wouldn't even start a garden without again, ever. I use 5 gal buckets. They are stupid simple and you can hook them up to hoses or whatever holds water. They use gravity only.

They give your plants the ideal amount of water (more yield imo) and those on hot days they allow your plants to survive with no issues since they are getting water constantly. 

Shoot me an email if you ever want to know cost etc for something your size.


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## sullivan666 (May 15, 2013)

Awesome, thanks for the info Cann... I have a homebrew store down the street so I check for the 6 gallon. 

I need to look into the blumats too...constant water is a necessity in the desert...had a lil issue with the AC today and my tent got up to 95...its back on now so i back to the mid 80s, but damn scared me for a minute.


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## headtreep (May 15, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Awesome, thanks for the info Cann... I have a homebrew store down the street so I check for the 6 gallon.
> 
> I need to look into the blumats too...constant water is a necessity in the desert...had a lil issue with the AC today and my tent got up to 95...its back on now so i back to the mid 80s, but damn scared me for a minute.


Exactly, I lost my AC for 3 days during the start of triple digits and all plants/seedlings were fine (lights off temps 94F). If you ever have a power outage or heat issues you can leave your lights off for several days with no ill effects and prob up to a week with water. I just start back up with normal light cycle time.


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## Cann (May 15, 2013)

lol its okay my AC exhaust vent came loose yesterday and it was reading 99.7 in the room  back to normal now though...thank god. 

still..my canopy temps are going to be consistently in the mid 80s from here on out (except at night i guess)


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## headtreep (May 15, 2013)

Cann said:


> lol its okay my AC exhaust vent came loose yesterday and it was reading 99.7 in the room  back to normal now though...thank god.
> 
> still..my canopy temps are going to be consistently in the mid 80s from here on out (except at night i guess)


Mine ranges from 82-86F and they are healthy


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## SpliffAndMyLady (May 15, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I used some juice from that and my worm bin the other day without dilution only to find very very happy plants.


Just did this the other day. My plants were stoked!


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## hyroot (May 15, 2013)

My local small hydro shop has one of those towers going. They hook me up with a couple of water bottles filled with worm tea when ever I go in there. They mostly feed them greens though. Each time the quality varies. I would just use it in veg and my veggie garden outside.


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## jstone1633 (May 16, 2013)

Cann said:


> Per cuft of base:
> 
> 4-5 cups rock dust mix (4x glacial, 1x bentonite, 1x powdered oyster shell, 1x basalt dust) AFAIK the glacial and basalt are relatively interchangeable ..just use whatever is local (this goes for just about anything in ROLS...local is often best).


Do you think aragonite powder could be used instead of the oyster shell powder? I can get it locally cheaper. And Im having trouble sourcing the bentonite. Have you ever heard of or used Redmonds Conditioner? It has a type of clay in it along with a lot of other stuff. Also sourced locally. A local organic farm supply store carries a lot of Fertrell products including these


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## Kalyx (May 16, 2013)

Pretty please with sugar and creme and a big IWE hash dab make this great thread for real organics a Sticky. Please Matt and Sunni and other mods I am asking very nicely and this thread is a very fine resource! Its organic resin concentrated by only ice, pure water, and love!


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## headtreep (May 16, 2013)

I will bribe them with this little Chimera plant.


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## Cann (May 16, 2013)

whoooo thats a nice shot sir....beautiful purple hues showing...that shit should be a magazine cover....


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## SpliffAndMyLady (May 17, 2013)

Bueno or no beuno? They were growing out of some no-till pots that I just harvested and left the stump. After I harvested I soil drenched with lactobacillus. Then found these guys.


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## Kalyx (May 17, 2013)

Bueno. The fungi are happy. The fruit of your and their labor so to say. I would take it as a sign of a stabilizing ecosystem in the pot. 

I have a no till tomato trough with 3 different fungi creating shrooms. It has caused no issues for two reuse seasons, this year will be 3.


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## headtreep (May 17, 2013)

I get those from time to time. That is a great sign. I leave mine be, at least the ones that grow from the side of my fabric pots. Real cool to see!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (May 17, 2013)

Right on. Free mushroom compost


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## Green Dragon 2 (May 17, 2013)

Hello All would someone please explane blumats to me how they work ect. Thanks GD2


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## Kalyx (May 19, 2013)

Blumat is a brand of auto watering device. Any res can be elevated and used as a gravity feed. The blumat emitter is a ceramic cone that opens a valve and waters for you based on the moisture level of the cone itself inserted into the soil. They also offer an attachment that hooks directly to a RO filter line as well.


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## Rrog (May 19, 2013)

You can run from a res, from a well pump, or directly from a pressurized RO system. I'll be running from RO in my next grow room.


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## hyroot (May 19, 2013)

Has anyone used shrimp meal instead of crab meal. I just saw some down to earth shrimp meal. 6-6-0 at the nursery. Same price as crab meal. $7 for 4lbs. I have never used it so I'm just curious.


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## yankeegreen (May 19, 2013)

I know on another site, Cootz stated in a post I recently read that he prefers a locally sourced crustacean mix (crab and shrimp) over crab meal.


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## Rrog (May 19, 2013)

Should all be the same. Same calcium, same Chitin. Use whatever's cheap and available.


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## jstone1633 (May 19, 2013)

jstone1633 said:


> Do you think aragonite powder could be used instead of the oyster shell powder? I can get it locally cheaper. And Im having trouble sourcing the bentonite. Have you ever heard of or used Redmonds Conditioner? It has a type of clay in it along with a lot of other stuff. Also sourced locally. A local organic farm supply store carries a lot of Fertrell products including these


Anyone have any thoughts on this?


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## Rising Moon (May 20, 2013)

I think you could swap the two for each other, however, it surprises me that a farm supply store wouldn't carry CHEAP ground oyster shells.

I buy them for my chicken and soil mixes, 10$ a 50lb bag at my local T.S.C.

You could also swap them for dried roasted eggshells, I posted a tutorial for making your own lime substitute somewhere in this thread a while back.


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## kushking42 (May 20, 2013)

aloe users...

when do you apply foliar applications of aloe? i typically apply all my foliars during the peak heat of the day. especially stuff like pure protein http://organicagproducts.com/products/pure-protein-dry and 

calcium 25 http://www.calcium25.com/ http://www.calcium25.com/INSTRUCTIONS-4-pages-2013.pdf . the thought being that i want the ladies fully respirating when they get their turbo boost. the ca25 doesnt even work below 77 degrees. 

i never use powerful foliars on overcast/cold days. what time of the day seems best for aloe? has anyone applied at different times of the day and seen different results?

edit: of course pesticides are applied in the evening...


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## headtreep (May 20, 2013)

I usually do my foliars before lights off cause they typically contain a botanical oil. I do IPMs every 3 days, no fuckin around in my program. Pests don't like my wet oily ass stinky leaves.


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## hyroot (May 20, 2013)

I've done 2 aloe foliar sprays recently. Well 3 but I don't count the first. I let the aloe gel sit for too long. It was kelp meal and fresh aloe. 1 in the afternoon. Then 1 in the evening around 8:00 after transplanted. The perkyness lasts for same amount of time with both. Even after lights went out and came back on they were perky for that same amount of time. Growth was the same. That's in veg. That runs from 11:30 am - 7: 30 am. .... 20/4

I would usually do foliars right after lights turn on. So the plants will be dry sooner. I don't like spraying right before lights out. All that moisture will linger and make the r/h rise and flucuate and create pm. Even with neem.


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## NickNasty (May 20, 2013)

I foliar when ever I get around to it. My temps don't fluctuate too much when lights are on so I dont worry about the timing but I try not to do it right before lights out for the same reason hyroot said.


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## headtreep (May 20, 2013)

This was posted by cootz. Really makes me excited for the new version. I know these do what he says because a lot of my strains I've grown before were nearly as chunky as they have been after using these methods.

*"RE: SST v2.0

Besides the increased impact on the plants the other thing is that this is a much faster way to be ready to apply a tea - usually less than 36 hours or so.

I'm 2 or 3 days from harvest with 3 strains and they continue to 'chunk up' from these teas as well as coconut water with aloe vera resulting in very large calyxes, massive resin levels and the smell has rendered my CanFan rig pretty much useless.

"Oh my!"

CC *


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## headtreep (May 20, 2013)

I pm'd sunni today asking for this thread to be a sticky. Never pm'd a mod on riu so we will see if they hate me. I really enjoy reading everyones posts that participates and I hope we have all benefited from sharing info.

edit: update- sunni responded that the thread is still under review and they will get back to us once they are done with other matters.


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## headtreep (May 20, 2013)

Cootz schedules for teas and application rates: 

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I run two 'teas' every week in both veg and flower rooms as follows

*Tea #1*

Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0
BioAg Ful-Power

*Tea #2*

Aloe Vera
Coconut Water - on this one you can use 1/4 cup for good results
BioAg TM-7

When you put them into flower, top dress with up to 2" of vermicompost. 

That's it.

CC [/FONT]

I follow their suggested application rates and this is especially important on the Ful-Power. Hi-dosing will (not can) result in some horrific expressions that no amount of 'flushing' or 'nute deprivation' can fix or resolve.

Ful-Power - 1 oz. per gallon of water. 1x per week is more than adequate.

TM-7 - 1 gram which is 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water. 1x per week is also more than adequate.

If you live in some of the western states, these two products are available at stores serviced by NGW (National Garden Wholesale) aka SunLight Mfg. and the price will be less than ordering direct from BioAg - they must have really cut some kind of deal! LOL

For example, a gallon of Ful-Power is $65.00 from BioAg which includes S&H charges. A gallon from Duh Dude at Hydro Heaven with the obligatory 'good dude discount' drops below $50.00 and if you bought their 2.5 gallon jug the price drops below $35.00 per gallon

Just trying to say that shopping price can save you quite a bit of money.

HTH

CC 





Source https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=262079&page=11


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## hyroot (May 20, 2013)

Does fresh coconut water degrade like fesh aloe gel or is does it last? I've had it aerating with water for the last hour in one bucket and 2 days in another bucket. So let me know if I screwed that one up too,


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## kushking42 (May 20, 2013)

headtreep: do you use an oz of ful-power to foliar?


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## headtreep (May 20, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> headtreep: do you use an oz of ful-power to foliar?


I do. I actually take a 5 gal jug and mix all my stuff. 150 ml of ful-power for a 5 gal of h20.


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## kushking42 (May 20, 2013)

wow thats a lot. never used more than 15 ml. maybe ill try more..


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## headtreep (May 20, 2013)

Ful-power is very diluted unlike TM-7 which I have personally fried a few plants due to a mix up. Be careful with that stuff.


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## Cann (May 20, 2013)

headtreep - that is pushing it for the ful-power application....30ml/gal is about maxing out for soil use - cootz has told me to cut it in half when I foliar, a.k.a. 15ml/gal. thats a much safer ratio IMO and will still provide all the benefits of the fulvic acid. 

too much fulvic can be a nightmare...the particles are small enough to penetrate mitochondria and can wreak havoc if there are too many of them...

_"Fulvic acid is not a single, repeatable molecule. Rather it is like gathering millions of snowflakes, each unique, but all under a specific size. It's because of this small size that it is able to penetrate even into the mitochondria, the workhorse of the cell. And because of its many receptor sites, if properly extracted, it has the potential to be a very powerful antioxidant. - Dr. Robert Faust"


_thanks to cootz for linking the dr. faust quote


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## kushking42 (May 20, 2013)

Cann: ya thats what i was thinking. and when the fertilizer is strong i use 10-12ml per gal. 3 seasons ago i spoke with the good folks @ bio ag and they recommended no more than 15 for my intended use


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## Cann (May 21, 2013)

yup...be careful with BioAg's products - they're potent. headtreep is a crazy mofo


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## headtreep (May 21, 2013)

Sorry guys that I failed to mention when I foliar I cut my 5 gal jug solution by 50% water. I do use the full dose for drench. Hope that clears up any error. I forget you aren't mind readers. Cann is right that would be too much.


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## headtreep (May 21, 2013)

The only time I have used the 30 ml for foliar is when I was spraying some cuttings. I was going to just try the product all by itself per directions for cuttings. 


Yeah dudes, again I'm sorry for leaving that out. Also if I have used that much to foliar in the past and it will damage just like too TSM-7 after multiple applications  


*I like to make things very easy on myself since gardening consumes about half my life already. I mix the aloe, coconut, ful-power, kelp powder and silica in a 5 gal jug filled with RO. I cut that solution in half when I foliar. I don't mind coconut on my leaves as mentioned before and I'm a firm believer of less is more. Sometimes I fail to mention that my personal teas on paper look strong but I always cut my stuff down with water to make sure there is enough to share for all plants. Always.*


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## headtreep (May 21, 2013)

How do you garden? What nute solutions/teas and schedules is everyone using? This is a good topic. I go 3x a week with IPMS, foliars, and drench everyday.

*
* I use kelp powder because I have much on hand. It works great but meal is better fyi.*


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## headtreep (May 21, 2013)

CC is the man. I like this for people that are new. Posted today 

*Here's a potting soil that one could put together at Concentrates for chump-change.

1 Alaska Peat Pony Bale (2.2 c.f.) - $9.00
1 c.f. Pumice (3 sizes to choose from) - $4.60
1 c.f. Oly Mtn. Fish Compost (certified organic) - $5.25

Total is $19.85 for 4 c.f. base potting soil

If one didn't want to buy full bags of amendments, they have self-serve bulk on the important ones. The current prices are as follows:

Cascade Minerals Balast - $.55 per lb. You would need 2 lbs. per c.f.
Crab Meal - $.95 per lb. You would need 1/4 lb. per c.f.
Kelp Meal - $2.00 per lb. You would need 1/4 lb. per c.f.

You would need 1/4 lb. per c.f. on Neem meal which you would have to source elsewhere

Once you plant your rooted starts in their pots you would want to top-dress with vermicompost - up to 2" is all that is required.

How's that for cheap? I have a cycle ready to flower that has this exact recipe/formula. Growth rate, health, vigor is picture perfect.

CC 
* __________________

Source: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=260878&page=7

Thanks CC!!!!!!


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## hyroot (May 21, 2013)

^^^ where are you finding these prices? No where in socal has that. Nurseries and farm supplies cost more than hydro shops for most things. cheapest crab meal I found was $7 for 4 lbs.


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## headtreep (May 21, 2013)

hyroot http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/crabcrustacean-meal <====== I got the max that would fit in flatrate box and it was a good deal 


You can really get most of this stuff shipped at a reasonable rate but you must look around the web pretty much. Cann should know where to get local Socal stuff. I used to live there but been away many years so I don't know. 

*Back to my topic on nutes and teas schedules here is mine and this time it's all solid info used today in today's programs. I know we all do things a little different and at different times so here is mine. 

PS It's always good to check each others work. We call that a "second pair of eyes" so we don't fuck up things. I do update multiple threads on many other boards so there is room for error. This is stupid and lazy easy. Took me awhile to figure out on how not to use so many jugs. I don't have the time for all that.


*If anyone sees that someone maybe using too much, do that person a favor and give them a shout. 
*
VEG-HARVEST (except foliars)

*All this in a 5 gal jug of RO water

Drench:
7 days a week
5 gal RO water
150 ml ful-power
25 ml silica
150 ml Liquid kelp concentrate (made from soluble kelp powder)
1.25 TSP Aloe Powder
1.25 TSP Coconut water Powder

Nute Foliar:
2 days a week
Same solution as above cut with 50% water. I use a spray bottle and fill halfway with solution other half RO water.

IPM foliar:
1 day a week and sometimes 2
Same solution as above but add an oil like neem or peppermint at 5ml per gal

SST (Seed Sprout Tea):
1-3x depending on time. These are important so I shoot for at least 2x per week. 

ACT
1 x a month

I don't bubble comfrey or too many herbs anymore. I just topdress that stuff or make a salad of herbs sometimes when I feel it's needed.

I hope this helps...

*_*****edit: BioAg TM-7 I will use Twice a month at 1/4 tsp per gal rate or more depending how much water I use to cut. I use same drench recipe but I leave out the ful-power._


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## Cann (May 21, 2013)

hyroot said:


> ^^^ where are you finding these prices? No where in socal has that. Nurseries and farm supplies cost more than hydro shops for most things. cheapest crab meal I found was $7 for 4 lbs.



cootz is lucky, he lives close to Concentrates Inc - a large agricultural supply store in portland. very nice pricing on everything/great selection. down here in so-cal things are about twice as expensive...and way harder to find lol. oly mountain fish compost is nowhere to be seen haha thats why I use bu's blend compost (another cootz recommendation - and its local). no way you're going to find a bag of bu's blend for $6 though lol...the cheapest I can get is around $10 a bag


headtreep - thanks for the clarification  you're schedule is a lot like mine...no time to post in now, will later in a few days..things are crazy busy around here always. i've turned nocturnal lol...i woke up yesterday afternoon, worked in the garden outdoors til sunset, then worked in my indoor garden for a few hrs, then trimmed all night, then at 6 am went outside and worked in the outdoor garden again (by far the nicest time of day in so-cal...at least this time of year) then crashed at 10. woke up about half an hour ago....lol bout to do the whole thing over again. peace  hope that makes sense i'm high as hell and in a hurry...


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## Mohican (May 21, 2013)

Orange County Farm Supply in Orange on Chapman

http://www.ocfarmsupply.com/

Cheers,
Mo


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## headtreep (May 21, 2013)

Cann said:


> cootz is lucky, he lives close to Concentrates Inc - a large agricultural supply store in portland. very nice pricing on everything/great selection. down here in so-cal things are about twice as expensive...and way harder to find lol. oly mountain fish compost is nowhere to be seen haha thats why I use bu's blend compost (another cootz recommendation - and its local). no way you're going to find a bag of bu's blend for $6 though lol...the cheapest I can get is around $10 a bag
> 
> 
> headtreep - thanks for the clarification  you're schedule is a lot like mine...no time to post in now, will later in a few days..things are crazy busy around here always. i've turned nocturnal lol...i woke up yesterday afternoon, worked in the garden outdoors til sunset, then worked in my indoor garden for a few hrs, then trimmed all night, then at 6 am went outside and worked in the outdoor garden again (by far the nicest time of day in so-cal...at least this time of year) then crashed at 10. woke up about half an hour ago....lol bout to do the whole thing over again. peace  hope that makes sense i'm high as hell and in a hurry...


Yeah man I've been off track too myself with my schedule and it's messing with my health a bit. I should take an internet break while I'm on vacation.


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## headtreep (May 21, 2013)

I use my own vermicompost now but in the past I source local stuff and for reg compost I use bioflora fish and kelp at 6 cfu. I also use bus blend and whatever else I can find that is quality. Bu's blend in AZ is 16 bucks cfu so we go light on that one. My vermicompost I get is a buck a pound and worth it. 


FYI It's best to use a mix of commercial compost incase one is lacking imo. Back to diversity .


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## sullivan666 (May 21, 2013)

I'm going to be using my own castings too, eventually, but I need quite a bit for my outdoor garden so I'll be sourcing from http://www.vermilove.com The worm whisper, she's basically down the street from me and has awesome live castings. $5/lb but worth it. 

As for compost I use a mix of my own and this local dude Peter's stuff http://phoenix.craigslist.org/evl/grd/3784093097.html $8/cuft and its good quality.

As for amendments there's a great nursery in Phoenix called Baker's http://www.bakernurseryaz.com/ that has lots of good stuff. A bit pricey on some things, but no shipping and the people are very down to earth.


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## hyroot (May 21, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Orange County Farm Supply in Orange on Chapman
> 
> http://www.ocfarmsupply.com/
> 
> ...


I went there a couple years ago all they had was fox farm, dr. earth, and a few things from grow more and horse manure compost and chicken manure compost. everything was way expensive. Have they gotten better?

they had gardening stuff too but not much along the lines for nutes


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## Mohican (May 21, 2013)

You need to join as a wholesale gardener to get the good prices. Yes they have some killer stuff and great advice. I get my ProMix and Pumice from them. Got some greensand and azomite last visit. Don't ever go on Saturday it is way too full of Sunday gardeners.


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## jstone1633 (May 21, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Does fresh coconut water degrade like fesh aloe gel or is does it last? I've had it aerating with water for the last hour in one bucket and 2 days in another bucket. So let me know if I screwed that one up too,


Has this been answered yet? Id like to know myself.


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## Rrog (May 22, 2013)

Any of these cold-extracted teas will have sensitive molecules that degrade with exposure to O2, UV, temps, etc. I'd use any of them quickly


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## headtreep (May 22, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Any of these cold-extracted teas will have sensitive molecules that degrade with exposure to O2, UV, temps, etc. I'd use any of them quickly


I was trying to look at degradation rates of this stuff but I figured it would be a bit of research to find out how long it takes for the "goods" to break down. I would say if you get to using in the same day you should be ok. As the days pass effectiveness and results may vary but doubtful any harm will take place.

I would say use it ASAP


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## kushking42 (May 22, 2013)

i started putting a 1/2 tsp per gallon citric acid when i do my foliar applications outside. im up to 10 gallons to cover the whole canopy and it takes longer than 20 minutes. i figured this would keep me from running around like a mad man lol..


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## Galvatron (May 22, 2013)

i just found this thread and have been doing something very similar for the past few years for my outdoors gardens and grows. i recycle all my used soils but i dont plant straight into the freshly chopped containers i like to chop the roots up, i put it all in a bin to break down. right now i have a 16 gal container of recycled and amended soil cooking, its been cooking for a few months and i just keep adding new stuff to it whenever i have material. 



the base is peat and compost, i also add spent coir. its amended with neem cake, egg shells, lobster/crab meal, kelp and a bunch of things i dont even remember. what you cant see is a complete lobster head that i stuffed in there 3 weeks ago and its already broken down to small bits. i was surprised how fast it broke down. i use this mix outside only because im afraid of bringing in unwanted pests to my indoor garden. all my outdoor mj plants that i make seeds with are grown in the organic stuff.

the plant in the picture just got sprayed with aloe vera gel mixed with water last night and its looking happy. i have a huge aloe vera plant growing and never thought to use it as a foliar spray but now i know better cus of this thread. thanks!


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## headtreep (May 22, 2013)

It's nice to have you Galvatron. Those little tweeks can make a world of difference 

SST, coconut, and aloe for the win!





*Posts 666
*


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## headtreep (May 22, 2013)

Another Kick ass post by Cootz!!!! Thanks again CC.


Source: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=257899&page=76


*Well - I guess this is as good a place as any to post this...

I purchased a full bag of diastatic malt which is the version with the highest levels of enzymes in the barley malt arena vs. non-diastatic malt which are the flavored malts. No enzymes but the endosperm is roasted at different temperatures and for different times depending on what they're wanting to achieve. The simple sugars in the endosperm are converted to Maltose which you've probably seen on food labels.

The malt came from a large 'malt house' as they're known as and this one is Great Western Malting which is 80 years old and they have 2 malt houses in the US - Vancouver, Washington & Pocatello, Idaho and 10 regional sales & distribution operations around the country.

They produce malts for the distilling, brewing & food industries (the Maltose deal). They even do an organic line.

I gave 10 lb. bags to 5 people that were interested. They all had been doing the sprouting a seed process and this went far beyond growing MMJ. Plants included tomatoes, peppers, flowering plants, mints, etc. These were all greenhouse set-ups.

The results and comments were all the same as my observations: there was no measurable difference in the results. Having said that I did not ask about MMJ nor did anyone offer any comments so I only have my experience using the powder vs. v2.0 with the same strain from the same mother plant.

I ran diastatic malt on one plant and the SST v2.0 on the other. They looked like that they will be done by tomorrow or perhaps Thursday. The changes were identical in every respect.

I learned that malt houses have to use strict procedures to insure the same results. Imagine the repercussions from a bad batch hitting a national brewer or even in the home brewing circle.

The price that I paid at a brewing store was $75.00 which may or may not be fair. It probably is not. A single pound at the same store was $3.00 so they aren't doing anyone any great deals.

The amount that I used through the entire cycle was 1 tablespoon which is 'close enough' to 1/2 oz. or at least close enough to figure out an application cost. A pound would give you 32 tablespoons making 32 gallons. Even at the single-pound price, your cost is below $.10 per gallon.

So that's buying it at a brew store but there's a better way to get your hand on this malt version - food-service companies. In the sector for bakeries they sell a 10 lb. pack which lists for $19.99 and companies like Sysco, Monarch Foods, Shamrock Foods, Food Services of America and other regional players will either stock it or can get it with a special order. There is also a baking supplier, Bake Mark, which is national so they would always carry this malt. It's pretty standard in the artisan and high-end baking world.

There you go......

CC
__________________*


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## headtreep (May 22, 2013)

* diastatic malt *a new replacement from SST 2.0 it seems. Especially those who need something that's easy and fast (Like none of us like that lol).

Per Cootz

Mix 1/2 oz of powder with 1 gal water and hit the soil 1x each week. That's all you need to do.


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## kushking42 (May 22, 2013)

im gonna have to start frequenting the new mega thread over there more. that is so much more practical for me.


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## headtreep (May 22, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> im gonna have to start frequenting the new mega thread over there more. that is so much more practical for me.


Amen!

You get info straight from the source. Funny group too.


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## kushking42 (May 22, 2013)

i guess the brand name doesnt matter for the malt.. btw where do u buy coconut water?


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## Cann (May 22, 2013)

health food stores 


and yeah, the ROLS megathread is the best most direct source for goodies...especially now that the old coot is back around


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## headtreep (May 22, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> i guess the brand name doesnt matter for the malt.. btw where do u buy coconut water?


Health food, asian market, indian market, major grocery chains. I personally get my dried coconut water from Amazon.


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## hyroot (May 22, 2013)

Walmart has coconuts... I just seen them. Same price as the market down the street. Same coconuts too. From Mexico. 1 coconut gave me 1/2 cup of water. Another same size coconut gave me 3 cups of water. Its obviously more concentrate than bottled coconut water.


Shaved down the coconut, dried it out and made some cookies and thc cookies


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## kushking42 (May 22, 2013)

im looking for the largest quantity i can find. costco maybe..


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## hyroot (May 22, 2013)

I have not seen any at costco. But from store to store the inventory and costs vary. either fresh coconuts or powder would be the way to. bottled coconut water is too expensive. $4 a liter and thats enough for almost 5 gal of water.


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## kushking42 (May 22, 2013)

i didnt even know they made freeze dried coconut h2o. http://www.amazon.com/Navitas-Naturals-Coconut-5-8-Ounce-Pouches/dp/B009AS4DEW


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## headtreep (May 23, 2013)

This could possibly be the answer instead of the SST 2.0. A few are going to test.


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## dl290485 (May 23, 2013)

"sprouted dried and ground into flour" 
That does sound like the sst instructions... but how could it be tested?
I was once told by hydro shop owner that enzyme strength can be tested by seeing how long either a tissue or maybe piece of paper takes to dissolve in it. Has anyone heard of such a test or anything else like it? I tried to google it but ended up with a whole heap of stuff like unrelated science and health pages.

*edit

*Ok I did a bit more googling and come up with this:
"Get 3 STERILE test tubes (preferably glass). Use a tablespoon of your zyme product in one and the competition in the other and plain tap water in the 3rd for a control. Now cut equal 1 inch x 1 inch square pieces of paper. Put a square of paper in each tube. Wait about 12 hours and start to stir and mix each tube. A GOOD zyme product will disolve the paper in 12 hours completly. This demonstrates the ability of the product to disolve organic matter, like dead roots for example."

I'm not a scientist but I would double what the say to do. Use 2 samples of the barley flour, 2 of the sst and I guess 2 control samples too. If you only use 1 sample, you invite more chance of a freak result- unless the test has failed to be accurate the samples of the same type shouldn't vary. Anyway someone go try it now


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## GreenSanta (May 23, 2013)

hi guys, I had to run to the corner store for molasses yesterday and they didnt have organic unsulfured blackstrap molasses, all they had was Cosby's all natural blackstrap molasses ... is the ''unsulfured'' necessary? will my tea work? I gotta say the molasses didnt look all that natural compared with the one I normally use. Thank you.


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## hyroot (May 23, 2013)

Gs just use less. Sulphur is the British way of spelling sulfur With unsulphered in the 3rd processig sulfur dioxide is released into the air. Which sulfur dioxide is also found in rain water, vitamin b1, epsom salts, etc... depending on how much is in the molasses... that wi determine how much to use.


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## GreenSanta (May 23, 2013)

What do you guys think? it's coco fabric I will use this container for my first go at No-Till. The green smart pot was a 15gallons oregon smart pot. I hope my container is just the right size for a No-Till.
View attachment 2669297View attachment 2669298View attachment 2669299View attachment 2669300


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## headtreep (May 23, 2013)

That looks really interesting GreenSanta. Matter of fact a got a buddy deconstructing some fabric pots to make us our own fabric grow beds instead of buying. I use 2 gal and 7 gal but 5 gal is the lowest recommend.


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## dl290485 (May 23, 2013)

A coco pot? I've only seen seedling pots made out of coco. The idea of the seedling one is that they last long enough to get the seedling going but then you just drop the whole thing into a bigger pot and it breaks down- so you don't have to try to tap a seedling out of a little pot.

How long is that big coco bag going to last? Is it maybe meant for growing a tree in a nursery and then wacking the whole pot in the ground instead of tapping it out? Or is it sturdy and will last somewhat like a nylon or hessian bag?


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## NickNasty (May 23, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> What do you guys think? it's coco fabric I will use this container for my first go at No-Till. The green smart pot was a 15gallons oregon smart pot. I hope my container is just the right size for a No-Till.
> View attachment 2669297View attachment 2669298View attachment 2669299View attachment 2669300


I think that it will fall apart and you will not be able to move it


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## GreenSanta (May 23, 2013)

Yes I am aware of that. I won't move it. Next time I ll order the smart pots again... I had a hard time finding the right size and I thought I would try something new. Def. an expensive bag I thought I would make 2 bags out of the 11ft (38$) but I doubled it to make it sturdier. If I need to move it I ll slide a tarp under... I figure I would probably get a couple years out of it if I dont need to move it?

I ll roll landscape fabric around when it begins to fall apart.


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## headtreep (May 24, 2013)

CC answered some questions on the mag regarding my schedule. I'm doing this stuff 1x a week now as the master pointed out. Always goes back to over doing things. Very easy to accomplish when you're on a roll.
*



invocation*

There are only 2 actual liquid kelp products on the market - KELPAK & KelpGrow and products like Maxicrop are simply water and the powdered seaweed extract which is made using Potassium Hydroxide and/or Sodium Hydroxide - the same chemical compounds you'll see on the label on a bottle of Draino - good stuff indeed!

Here's an easy way to make a true 'soluble kelp concentrate:

1/4 cup of kelp *meal*
1/2 cup of clean water

Soak until the kelp meal is completely and totally hydrated. Pour off any excess water and do something else with it. 

Take this kelp and use a food processor, Osterizer or any powerful mixer and puree the kelp and try and get it as consistent as possible.

Now you have true kelp extract and not seaweed extract. When you need kelp for a tea, mix about 1 tsp. to quart of water and dilute completely. Now you have a kelp meal tea without traces of Draino to trip you up.

On your question.....

1. Answered

2. 1x per week will give you the results you're wanting

3. I like doing aloe vera & coconut water with Ful-Power 1x per week. 

4. I can't imagine much benefit using coconut water as a foliar spray. The action you want to see from the specific enzymes take place in the soil and not on the leaves & branches. It's like applying Humic acid on your leaves - why? To what end?


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## NickNasty (May 24, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> Yes I am aware of that. I won't move it. Next time I ll order the smart pots again... I had a hard time finding the right size and I thought I would try something new. Def. an expensive bag I thought I would make 2 bags out of the 11ft (38$) but I doubled it to make it sturdier. If I need to move it I ll slide a tarp under... I figure I would probably get a couple years out of it if I dont need to move it?
> 
> I ll roll landscape fabric around when it begins to fall apart.


Check out the Root Pouch they are about half he price of Smart Pots.

This is usually the site that has the best deal on them but they are out of stock till May 30th
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/root-pouch-boxer-brown-fabric-pot-longest-lifespan/containers


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## SpliffAndMyLady (May 24, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Check out the Root Pouch they are about half he price of Smart Pots.
> 
> This is usually the site that has the best deal on them but they are out of stock till May 30th
> http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/root-pouch-boxer-brown-fabric-pot-longest-lifespan/containers


Grabbed some of these the other day, not much difference in the texture of the fabric either. Only downside is no handles


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## GreenSanta (May 24, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Check out the Root Pouch they are about half he price of Smart Pots.
> 
> This is usually the site that has the best deal on them but they are out of stock till May 30th
> http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/root-pouch-boxer-brown-fabric-pot-longest-lifespan/containers



On my thread, hyroot mentioned viagrowtm bags on amazon, BY FAR the cheapest smart pots I have seen online. 8$ for a 25 gallons. 

I hope that my coco pouch will outdo most pouch, I like that the plants will start eating the container at some point


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## headtreep (May 24, 2013)

Mod's are we ready to sticky yet?







GF X BB sample snip by Chimera.


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## sunni (May 24, 2013)

lol funny i just was doing it as you posted, im not all the wya through but might as well


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## yankeegreen (May 24, 2013)

..and there was much rejoicing. Truly a wealth of information. Thanks to all those willing to share their knowledge of organics, michrobes chemistry and biology!


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## headtreep (May 24, 2013)

sunni said:


> lol funny i just was doing it as you posted, im not all the wya through but might as well


Appreciate that sunni. Cya you around!!! Thanks again.


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## hyroot (May 24, 2013)

Yaaaaaaaaaa sticky approved. That sounds dirty doesn't it lol


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## Cann (May 24, 2013)

thanks sunni!!!!!


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## Rising Moon (May 25, 2013)

Ahhh, no more digging.

We made it to the top boys! (and girls)

Now lets keep the momentum going in here...

A little Jack Herer motivational buzz anyone...?


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## Kalyx (May 25, 2013)

Danks Sunni for da sticky. Double dank to all contributors! Simplifying my grow and my life... I think, havent done SST 2.0 yet


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## headtreep (May 25, 2013)

That some bombay looking bud up there ^^^^^

Rising you gonna send smoke signals?


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## fatboyOGOF (May 25, 2013)

great work headtreep. 

i used to use a lot of magic potions and mixtures but i got lazy. makes me wonder what kind of weight i'd pull using what you use. i've been pulling 17 oz every 3 months in a 4' 9" square tent using a 600 watt. i don't need more weight but i am curious. 

we'll have to chat.


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## headtreep (May 25, 2013)

fatbotOGOF, just wait until you sample the meds hehe. Yields are by far better than anything I've tried but besides that, the levels of terpenes and resins you can produce giving the proper genetics are off the charts. We will have to chat for sure man!


----------



## Rrog (May 25, 2013)

Moon has Jack Herer. I'm so jealous... And looking very sweet!


----------



## Cann (May 25, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Yields are by far better than anything I've tried


Just finished trimming a plushberry plant...grown in ROLS..10 gallon smartpot - final weight was just over 200grams...almost a half lb. from one plant. and this is under 600 watt lights..

the smartpot is now on its second round with a BOxNL5/haze lady...very excited to see what she has in store for me. 

i gotta update my journal LOL...just got done staking tomato plants, gotta go back for more outdoor garden work. too f***ing busy! need a hit of that jack herer...


----------



## headtreep (May 25, 2013)

Cann said:


> Just finished trimming a plushberry plant...grown in ROLS..10 gallon smartpot - final weight was just over 200grams...almost a half lb. from one plant. and this is under 600 watt lights..
> 
> the smartpot is now on its second round with a BOxNL5/haze lady...very excited to see what she has in store for me.
> 
> i gotta update my journal LOL...just got done staking tomato plants, gotta go back for more outdoor garden work. too f***ing busy! need a hit of that jack herer...



Yup yup. That's really cool Cann! Post some budshots if you have time.


----------



## jubiare (May 25, 2013)

Stickyyyyyyy
Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 26, 2013)

Have a question .. im in a new place (house) I have tomatoe plants, eggplants, peppers, zucchini all currently in pots and some small seedlings like huckleberries and such in tiny starter pots right now and I'm having a problem with ear wigs eating the shit out of my leaves. Got off work tonight decided to look at the plants and saw lots them on the leaves of the plants so I killed about 40 or so before didn't really see anymore. Anyone know of a good way get rid of them or keeping them away and off my plants ?


----------



## SpliffAndMyLady (May 26, 2013)

How long can a no till pot stay dormant for?


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## Rising Moon (May 26, 2013)

Glad to see you back Rrog!

Cann, way to go on that Plushberry, safe to say you got the electric bill all sorted out with that one...lol.


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## Rising Moon (May 26, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> How long can a no till pot stay dormant for?


Throw some mulch,clover seed and worms in there and it should be fine for months, just make sure it wont get dried out.

I am in the process of building twice as many no till pots as I need for flower, that way I can always have some pots in my room, and some pots growing cover crops. Rotate as needed.


----------



## NickNasty (May 26, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> Have a question .. im in a new place (house) I have tomatoe plants, eggplants, peppers, zucchini all currently in pots and some small seedlings like huckleberries and such in tiny starter pots right now and I'm having a problem with ear wigs eating the shit out of my leaves. Got off work tonight decided to look at the plants and saw lots them on the leaves of the plants so I killed about 40 or so before didn't really see anymore. Anyone know of a good way get rid of them or keeping them away and off my plants ?


Small Cups of beer around your plants they will be attracted to it and drown in the beer.

Also Sluggo plus will work its organic and has spinosad which is what kills it.


----------



## jubiare (May 26, 2013)

How one would go on with limited vegging space?
Can't veg in massive pots unfortunately..
Is no til impossible? Am already on ROLS but..


----------



## NickNasty (May 26, 2013)

You can veg in 1-2 gallons then dig a hole big enough to fit it in your 15-30 gal. just try not to disturb your soil as much as possible. If you just finished flowering a plant let the cut stem stay in the wet soil for a week or 2 and then it should just pull right out then dig a little bit around the hole and pop the 1-2 gallon in it.

Edit: It would still be better to veg your plants for little bit though in the bigger containers so the roots take hold before you start flowering.


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## hyroot (May 26, 2013)

That's what ive been doing with 1.5 gal plastic pots.then transplant into 7 gal fabric pots.. 1 gal fabric pots would be better probably for early veg. 


I'm thinking of grabbing some 25 gal or 30 gal fabric pots. Do a soil bed. I used to do the Soma style beds. It worked great. Just clean up after chop was a Bitch and half. With rols hmmm....... Might be a good idea. Drop 4 or 5 plants in each one. Thoughts...?


----------



## Cann (May 26, 2013)

lol yeah the electric is sorted for now....thank you ROLS 

here is how I go about the "no-till" deal - all of my large pots (over 5 gallon) are in my flower tent, and unfortunately due to the size of my tent/the room which the tent occupies I can't fit anything larger than 5 gallons into the flower tent (as soon as you open the bedroom door you hit the tent frame and have to squeeze through a slightly cracked door if that makes sense...). this makes it so I can't veg in the same containers I am flowering in (unless it is a 5 gallon that I can squeeze through the door) - so instead I veg in 1-2 gallon nursery pots or airpots (smartpots are such a bitch to transplant with! especially once the roots grow through the fabric...lol) and then when it comes times to flip the lights I bring the plants into the flower room and put them in their final homes, usually a 10 gal or 30 gal smartpot (although there is one 45 gal ). then I usually hit them with an ACT or enzyme tea, clean up the lower branches/take clones, and start the whole thing over again. 

if I could change anything, I would make it so I can plant a clone in a 45gal no-till and run it all the way through - unfortunately my current setup won't allow this due to the size of the pots. also carrying a full 45gal smartpot any distance would be a bitch lol. i wish there was a way to let the roots develop for a few weeks in the final pots before flipping the lights..but logistically there is no way for me to do that currently. i am still getting amazing results so its not the end of the world..

oh, and you may be wondering how the hell I have 10, 30, and 45 gallon smartpots in my flower tent if I can't squeeze anything more than 5 gallons through the door frame....a few months ago I filled up all the smarpots in situ, carrying ROLS 5 gallons at a time...LOL 

hyroot - i have no idea what soma style beds are. care to elaborate?


----------



## Rising Moon (May 26, 2013)

I mixed up some soil yesterday with my buddy for some outdoor girls...

6, 25 gallon smarties: (1/3 peat moss, 1/6 rice hulls, 1/6 pumice, 1/3 local compost/home made worm castings)

Plus all the goodies...Shrimp/Crab meal, Kelp, Rock Dusts, Neem Cake, Oyster Shells, BD preps...

I cant wait to see the results.

These pots will be planted with: Afghani Landrace, Afghani x White Widow, Gogi OG, Black Afghani, Blueberry Headband and Chocolate Heaven





Soil is now cooking...


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## GreenSanta (May 26, 2013)

Is it mandatory to leave the container to ''rest'' after a crop?

or one could simply grow the cover crops amongst the flowering plants, having a rotation like I would grow clover or alfalfa where I just harvested a plant.


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## hyroot (May 26, 2013)

Cann said:


> hyroot - i have no idea what soma style beds are. care to elaborate?


Basically tubs with rubber maids or wooden boxes with:
hydroton across the bottom
Then root / weed cloth / mat over hydroton.
Then soil over mat
pvc tubes in each corner reaching to hydroton

Idea is having a bed of air beneath the roots. Having air travel through pvc to hydroton layer. So more oxygen to the roots. Having that bed of air makes it almost impossible to over water.

Soma has been all about dwc the last few years ......


http://books.google.com/books?id=xmUSgsPc-3kC&pg=PA23&lpg=PP1&output=html_text




With fabric pots I would probably just do a layer of perlite at the bottom and soil on top. Probably no need for pvc or root mat.


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## Rising Moon (May 26, 2013)

I have seen really noticeable differences between plants that get an inch or two of perlite/pumice on the bottom of the smart pots.

They like it!

I now even do it with my small plastic transplants...

The roots cling to those particles and are air pruned, ready to burst into their new homes. Last time I was transplanting my friend and I were geeking over the Mycelium we could see all over the roots on the bottom layer of perlite/pumice.


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 26, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Small Cups of beer around your plants they will be attracted to it and drown in the beer.
> 
> Also Sluggo plus will work its organic and has spinosad which is what kills it.


Not sure about the sluggo plus , and I believe I've read things about spinosad and the different dustings you can put on soil but they also kill the good bugs along with some papers I've read saying it's actually bad for consumption. Hmm. Have try and find that article again. Guess stick with old beer traps for now. Was just wondering what else might work. 

Rising moon how you liking those gogi og? And how's the blueberry headband ?


----------



## Cann (May 26, 2013)

for earwigs I prefer the ol' manual removal technique...head out at midnight w/ a headlamp, place cardboard beneath the plant, shake, and then squash all the earwigs as they land on the cardboard and try to scatter 

ive taken out about 100 in a night that way...significantly decreased my problems LOL..now every other night or so I do a round, kill a few, and my plants are much much better. 

no more of this:


----------



## headtreep (May 26, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> I have seen really noticeable differences between plants that get an inch or two of perlite/pumice on the bottom of the smart pots.
> 
> They like it!
> 
> ...


Done this in the past with plastic pots. I need to try with cheap lava rock from home depot. Less expensive than pumice for me and easier to source.


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## jstone1633 (May 26, 2013)

Cann said:


> Just finished trimming a plushberry plant...grown in ROLS..10 gallon smartpot - final weight was just over 200grams...almost a half lb. from one plant. and this is under 600 watt lights..
> 
> the smartpot is now on its second round with a BOxNL5/haze lady...very excited to see what she has in store for me.
> 
> i gotta update my journal LOL...just got done staking tomato plants, gotta go back for more outdoor garden work. too f***ing busy! need a hit of that jack herer...


That's awesome. What was your veg time and what size pot for veg?


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## Cann (May 26, 2013)

6 or 7 weeks of veg in a 4.6 gallon airpot

heres part of it...


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## snowboarder396 (May 26, 2013)

Damn cann lol that looks bad. And yeah I killed over 50 last night between 7 plants


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## headtreep (May 26, 2013)

Nice colors Cann! What kind of smells are you getting?


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## hyroot (May 26, 2013)

F-in dankery cann. Good job.


I just figured out some ish with fabric pots. If you already know this go ahead and laugh at me.


When water leaks through the fabric on the sides. Rub your hand along the wet spot and it will stop leaking.

There's a dirty joke in that somewhere..lol


----------



## headtreep (May 26, 2013)

Fresh off the vine, into a jar, my little purple friend that I picked the other day.

Chimera Grapefruit x Blueberry








Looks like Cann's lol!! We should smoke out.....


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 27, 2013)

Very nice cann, 

So I work 14 hour days and don't get home until 11-12 at night. Checked on plants tonight and not as many earwigs as I killed by hand last night, so that's a good sign. Also at base one my tomatoe plants where holes at for drainage there was a big daddy long legs munching on a earwig! .Hell ched little fella and then he crawled into the hole looking for more things to munch on I assume .. made itself a little home

However by my back door I saw another spider doing the same only. It was an earwig trapped in it's web. Except this was a big black widow. So.... Tomorrow I'm either getting spider poision or using peppermint oil spray. That tucker has to go. I used be terrified spiders as a kid. Not anymore but sure as Hell don't like them. Especially black widows. Interesting fact for those who didn't know. The daddy long legs is most poisionous spider in the world.

My tomatoes are producing along with my Cheyenne pepper plant etc. I have a white currant tomatoe, a blue cherry tomatoe and a Clackamas blue tomatoe plant. 

Well hopefully i will be starting a grow here this next month. Was suppose to this month however these long workdays have me very busy.


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 27, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Fresh off the vine, into a jar, my little purple friend that I picked the other day.
> 
> Chimera Grapefruit x Blueberry
> 
> ...


Very nice lol I want some !


----------



## Old Mate Gorks (May 27, 2013)

Has anyone ever used zeolite? Sounds pretty good 

http://www.zeolite.com.au/products/agriculture.html

http://www.zeolite.com.au/products/zeolite-trials.html


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## Rising Moon (May 27, 2013)

Another Terrence avatar!


----------



## headtreep (May 27, 2013)

I haven't seen any machine elves lately speaking of Terrence lol.


----------



## jubiare (May 27, 2013)

Old mate,
I have been using it for a year with other rock dusts..
The whole rock dusts deal is doing very good to my soiless media.. Don't have the experience or/and have done any tests for zeolite on its own.

The high silica and the cation exchange capacities is what attracts me to it..! I'd say if you get it for a good deal go for it + some good and proven rock dust!

Here in EU this one is top notch:
Pinetumproducts.co.UK

It's a mix of basalt + others, very finely grounded which is a good thing!


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## Cann (May 27, 2013)

damn those self transforming machine elves....

headtreep, we definitely need to have a smokeout haha. that shit is looking fire! 

the smells i'm getting from my plushberry...hard to describe lol. i always have a hard time describing smells. it smells floral and sweet, definitely not musky or skunky at all, has a hint of lemon or pine or something like that, and then a good bit of sour smell..almost has a bite to it...a lemony bite? lol i have no f***ing idea. guess you'll just have to smoke it to find out...



snowboarder - clackamas blue tomato eh? never heard of that one...

black widows are a part of life down here...i probably see two or three every day in the warmer months...i tend not to mess with em and they dont mess with me. diatomaceous earth would probably work for both earwigs and the widows...if you want to go that route. i'd stay away from any insect poison, etc..but thats just me. 

anyone know how to take down a small hornets nest easily w/o poison? i would light it on fire w/ my torch but its under the eaves of my house...lol. recipe for disaster. i'm thinking i might just suit up w. a motorcycle helmet and thick clothes and then go out with a stick and bash all the nests...hmmmmmmm


gorks - never used zeolite before but it doesn't look half bad. i assume you're using it in place of another kind of clay? (bentonite for example). is there a reason you are choosing zeolite vs. other clays? if you're in aussie I totally understand lol..


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## sullivan666 (May 27, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Done this in the past with plastic pots. I need to try with cheap lava rock from home depot. Less expensive than pumice for me and easier to source.


I got 1/2 cu/ft bag at hd for like $3 and added it to my mix, works great. I'm getting a couple bags for the veggie garden.


----------



## sullivan666 (May 27, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> My tomatoes are producing along with my Cheyenne pepper plant etc.


I have a feeling growing peppers is going to be my next favorite to MJ. Found this site on a thread in the gardening section. Be placing an order soon. 

As for widows, I have em as well. Like Cann, I just leave em be and have never had an issue. They don't travel much if left alone, provided they're not pitched in your bedroom I wouldn't be too alarmed. I'm no expert but they seem much more shy than aggressive. I actually had one on me in the car ride home from a few days in the southern AZ desert. Opened the door and quickly brushed her off my shirt. I'm sure she wasn't happy being dropped at a Circle K 50 miles from her home, but we both carried on unharmed. 



> Interesting fact for those who didn't know. The daddy long legs is most poisionous spider in the world.​


Seems this is more of a myth than fact: http://spiders.ucr.edu/daddylonglegs.html


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## hyroot (May 27, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> I got 1/2 cu/ft bag at hd for like $3 and added it to my mix, works great. I'm getting a couple bags for the veggie garden.



Nice. Forget perlite along the bottom. That's a much better deal. Thanks for the heads up on that.


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## hyroot (May 27, 2013)

When you make a kelp extract. Is it ok if the kelp has not been dried? I just strained my kelp after steeping. Using the water for foliar. But I plan on doing a compost tea in a few to feed plants tomorrow. Be adding it wet. So I'm sure I'll have to add 2/3 more....? Or am I better off just adding kelp meal to the tea this time?

When using fresh aloe I found chopping it fine with a good kitchen knife works better than a blender or food processor. When I chop it by hand. It doesn't clog the sprayer.


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## Old Mate Gorks (May 27, 2013)

Jubiare, Cheers for the reply + link. Yeah, the cation exchange and silica is what got me interested too, not to mention it's apparently good as an air/water filter, so that can't hurt I suppose. I also read they used sandbags of it when fukushima started leaking radioactive shit into the ocean in an attempt to clean/dilute it or something. So it must have some fairly effective properties. Sounds like the zeolite and rock dust is where its at, I'll have to try it out.

Cann, yeah i think it looks pretty sick. However, my intentions aren't for using it as a replacement for anything, but rather just to spruce up the soil (so to speak). 
Yeah m8, aussie


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## Cann (May 28, 2013)

it'll definitely help boost CEC 

is this for outdoor or indoor?


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## headtreep (May 28, 2013)

Cann said:


> damn those self transforming machine elves....
> 
> headtreep, we definitely need to have a smokeout haha. that shit is looking fire!
> 
> the smells i'm getting from my plushberry...hard to describe lol. i always have a hard time describing smells. it smells floral and sweet, definitely not musky or skunky at all, has a hint of lemon or pine or something like that, and then a good bit of sour smell..almost has a bite to it...a lemony bite? lol i have no f***ing idea. guess you'll just have to smoke it to find out...


You must have a similar pheno to mine. Spacequeen dom. My smells real cheesey after a good cure.


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 28, 2013)

Thanks for that article very interesting. And peppers are great. There suppose to help with pain and other things as well.. I've been to that pepper site, its good if you want the hotter harder peppers to find otherwise I'd say way to spendy. You can find good heirloom seeds for a lot better prices.



sullivan666 said:


> I have a feeling growing peppers is going to be my next favorite to MJ. Found this site on a thread in the gardening section. Be placing an order soon.
> 
> As for widows, I have em as well. Like Cann, I just leave em be and have never had an issue. They don't travel much if left alone, provided they're not pitched in your bedroom I wouldn't be too alarmed. I'm no expert but they seem much more shy than aggressive. I actually had one on me in the car ride home from a few days in the southern AZ desert. Opened the door and quickly brushed her off my shirt. I'm sure she wasn't happy being dropped at a Circle K 50 miles from her home, but we both carried on unharmed.
> 
> ...


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 28, 2013)

Cann, yeah I just really don't like spiders at all.. I'm trying out a peppermint repellant. It keeps them away sends them running in another direction. Spiders have smell receptors on there front legs and when they say mint especially peppermint they run in the opposite direction. They hate it from what I've read do I'm spraying it around my house to see how it works. I've read in stronger more concentrated doses sprayed directly on spider it can kill them fast. But I just wanna keep them away


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## hyroot (May 28, 2013)

Some hydro shops in socal sell pepper seeds and clones. One had red and green Chile peppers. Bahia peppers too.

I only like bell peppers. Red and yellow ones. 

I love the smell of kelp


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## snowboarder396 (May 28, 2013)

As far as seeds go for food I only buy non gmo and heirloom seeds. 

You guys will get a kick out this I went to a hydro shop here just check it out and they wanted 22-23 dollars! For a bag of roots original soil. I couldn't believe it!


----------



## headtreep (May 28, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> As far as seeds go for food I only buy non gmo and heirloom seeds.
> 
> You guys will get a kick out this I went to a hydro shop here just check it out and they wanted 22-23 dollars! For a bag of roots original soil. I couldn't believe it!


Notice that too last time I went to shop looking for some trellis.


----------



## sullivan666 (May 28, 2013)

Damn, 6 months ago I got 2 bags of 707 for $28 total.


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## hyroot (May 28, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> As far as seeds go for food I only buy non gmo and heirloom seeds.
> 
> You guys will get a kick out this I went to a hydro shop here just check it out and they wanted 22-23 dollars! For a bag of roots original soil. I couldn't believe it!



Wow. When I used roots I never paid more than $13 and never will. At hydro shops you have to haggle. Never pay asking price. Its a buyers market. There's a ton of hydro shops out there. If they want your business........


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## Mohican (May 28, 2013)

ProMix went up also. I need to get my composting, worming, and tea brewing up to speed


----------



## hyroot (May 28, 2013)

^^^^ is that oc farm supply. Price is still same at lowes. Compressed bales. 

http://www.lowes.com:80/pd_383916-1803-383916_0__?ipTrail=96.229.49.104&productId=3745337&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=[[email protected]]&UserSearch=pro+mix+soil&storeNumber=0769&Ntt=pro+mix+soil&errorURL=UserAccountView&rpp=32


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 28, 2013)

As far as seeds go for food I only buy non gmo and heirloom seeds. 

You guys will get a kick out this I went to a hydro shop here just check it out and they wanted 22-23 dollars! For a bag of roots original soil. I couldn't believe it!


----------



## Mohican (May 28, 2013)

I think it is around 24. It was about 19 before.


Super soil is ready:




Worms are making soil and I have collected 10 pounds so far. Still have 20 pounds of bagged. There is still a half of a bag of Sunshine #4 (although that is what I am using under my worms to catch the goodness)

Compost pile is cooking nicely. I need to start cleaning up the pine needles for my neighbor. Does anybody know a good way to grind up pine needles?


These are germinating:





Cheers,
Mo


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## kushking42 (May 28, 2013)

$29 is a lot of dough for 2.2 cubic feet. thats more than i pay @ the dro store for a 3.8 bale. best bet is premier brand sphagnum peat @ the big box store. 12$ per 3.8 bale. then of course add your own aeration and humus.


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## hyroot (May 28, 2013)

If you read it. Its 4 cu ft compressed to 2.2. When you get it wet it expands. It really does expand if you wet a good chunk. If you break it up it still turns into close to 4 cu ft without wetting it. . Ocfs is still cheaper. Going there next time.


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## kushking42 (May 28, 2013)

lol, both the 2.2 and 3.8 are compressed. thats y i pointed it out. an apples to apples sorta thing... anywho the 3.8 bale is about 6.6 cubic feet. i know my pro-mix, i have 5 bales in each of my *indoor *beds


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## TheSuperBake (May 28, 2013)

Cann/anyone,

Anyone from the Socal area, I just wanted to know where I can locally source the Rock Dust Mix ingredients. 

Thank you,
TSB


----------



## snowboarder396 (May 28, 2013)

Last time I bought roots it was 12 a bag .. no way in hell is pay more then that plus before had issues with nats with it.. I'm doing my own soil from now on for most part .. once I get it started and established


----------



## Mohican (May 28, 2013)

I just checked and the ProMix is 3.8:




Cheers,
Mo


----------



## kushking42 (May 28, 2013)

MO: it's 3.8 compressed, 6.6 cubic feet un-compressed. they also have a 2.2 smaller bale.


----------



## dl290485 (May 28, 2013)

Here's something 'out of the bottle' to make you guys spew 
http://www.neutrog.com.au/assets/Brochure-PDFs/Commercial-PDFs/com-GOGO.pdf



It's called Gogo juice. It seems to be a commercial bottled (canned) version of something like what ACT is... except, even if it was brewed aerated, it's now in an anaerobic can right? I don't get that part...
In it's description it says;
"GOGO JUICE includes:Beneficial Bacteria:
Including but not limited to:
- Pseudomonas  aids in breaking 
down organic materials including crop, 
stubbles and thatch. 
- Bacillus  aids in unlocking phosphorus. 
- Azotobacter  aids in nitrogen fixation.

Alginates: 
Aid in moisture retention, and 
consequently in the plant's ability to 
withstand heat stress and frost.


Humic/Fulvic Acid:


Amino Acids:


Vitamins: 
B1, B2, B3, B6, C, E, Choline, Pantotene, 
Carotene.

Natural Growth Regulators:
- Cytokinins
- Auxins 
- Triacontanol 

I could of posted this in it's own thread or somewhere else, but in a kind of perverse way I figured you guys would appreciate it the least


----------



## NickNasty (May 29, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> Here's something 'out of the bottle' to make you guys spew
> http://www.neutrog.com.au/assets/Brochure-PDFs/Commercial-PDFs/com-GOGO.pdf
> 
> View attachment 2676839
> ...


I would recommend this to my mom over miracle grow. I don't hate on products like this even though it probably cost less then a dollar to make and the person who would buy this probably doesn't know shit about organic gardening at least it is not hurting the soil. I mean the person who is attracted to the GoGo Juice is not the same person who is going to learn or care why the product works just that it works.


----------



## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

Cann this is my Plushberry. Very nice colors. I'm gonna drop this on the TGA nerds hehe.


----------



## Rising Moon (May 29, 2013)

So handy with that camera!

Looking perfect!


----------



## Cann (May 29, 2013)

ha! i really like in the second picture how there is that one calyx on the right hand side pushing out fresh white pistils, while all the other pistils are orange. looks like its starting to foxtail a bit...mine does that after about 8 weeks..what day is that plant at? pretty pics


----------



## Cann (May 29, 2013)

TheSuperBake said:


> Cann/anyone,
> 
> Anyone from the Socal area, I just wanted to know where I can locally source the Rock Dust Mix ingredients.
> 
> ...


where exactly are you down here? 

I can find canadian glacial rock dust at a hydro store in san berdoo

basalt rock dust can be sourced near Torrance..i can also give you the guys contact info - the company is called Cascade Minerals

no idea on bentonite down here because I haven't looked but I think pottery supply stores near LA will carry it

oyster shell flour can be found at OC farm supply in Orange - or you can generally find oyster chunks at any farm/feed store..I bought a 40lb bag for $6. rinse these, then dry, then smash w/ a hammer or grind in a mortar/pestle until you have the fineness you want. more work than buying powder but it's a lot cheaper 


let me know if you need more help...i think thats all the ingredients to the rock dust mix...just going off memory here


----------



## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

Cann said:


> ha! i really like in the second picture how there is that one calyx on the right hand side pushing out fresh white pistils, while all the other pistils are orange. looks like its starting to foxtail a bit...mine does that after about 8 weeks..what day is that plant at? pretty pics


Oh yeah buddy it's ripe for sure. It starts to foxtail when it's past the window. Those are prob day 62 which imo is peak for this strain. I have ran this pheno for almost 2 years now.


----------



## TheSuperBake (May 29, 2013)

Cann,

Thanks for the help, I'm out of Corona, this info should get me off to a good start.


----------



## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

TheSuperBake said:


> Cann,
> 
> Thanks for the help, I'm out of Corona, this info should get me off to a good start.



Cool cool, welcome man! I know that area but don't live around there anymore hehe.

Seen many bands play in the 90s at showcase theatre.


----------



## Cann (May 29, 2013)

there are some good feed stores in the Norco area btw. 

you can buy Ful-power cheaper than retail @ green coast in ontario. there is also a green coast in orange if you are headed that way for OC farm supply.

OC farm supply is the best source of pumice in the area...$9 for 50lbs..if you buy a bunch you can haggle em..i pay $7 for 50lbs. 

oh, and if for any reason you need to go to discount hydro in riverside..hit me up first. not sure if you can send PM's yet but...


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## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

The armpit of SoCal minus Temec lol.


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## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

Cann and others. I know there are many forums out there but if you have heard of *The Seed Depot* its one of the better ones imo. No trolls or drama. It's almost scary. 

Cootz just joined in the organics section to assist. I'm pretty happy. Check it out.


Edit: forgot to mention there is a lot of breeders there to interact with and testing positions available.


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## hyroot (May 29, 2013)

Green coast in Ontario hooks up better deals and has a better selection than orange. The owner of the ontario one says he will beat anyones price. Discount hydro will always always hooks it up too . Quote their Internet prices or just got to the general manager. Green mile in San b has a good selection but too expensive except the soil. That's a good deal.. Green forest is a rip off. In n out hydro is a ripoff. Glen Avon hydro is a rip off. A plus in Costa mesa hooks it up but horrible selection. There's also dutch gardens in lake forest. I haven't been. But one of my friends got soil there and he said they do match prices. 

I never win any of the raffles at dh though.


I haven't been to oc farm supply yet. Since years ago. I thought it was still like the Armstrong nurseries..... until Mo told us other wise.


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## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

This is great info. When I move back Im taking my soil with me but outdoors will be another story.


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## Cann (May 29, 2013)

damn hyroot that was a nice accurate list lol...spot on. discount hydro will hook it up...you just gotta hassle em. fuck green forest always. dude is shiesty as hell. 

headtreep your map is missing the entire high desert...thats the real armpit lol. ever been to Phelan? oh no...

ill check out the seedbay..heard gas, cootz, mm, and other discussing it. we'll see where this goes...


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## TheSuperBake (May 29, 2013)

headtreep, i would drive by that place many times and never walked in I wish I did.


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## Cann (May 29, 2013)

goodies arrived in the mail today


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## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

Cann said:


> damn hyroot that was a nice accurate list lol...spot on. discount hydro will hook it up...you just gotta hassle em. fuck green forest always. dude is shiesty as hell.
> 
> headtreep your map is missing the entire high desert...thats the real armpit lol. ever been to Phelan? oh no...
> 
> ill check out the seedbay..heard gas, cootz, mm, and other discussing it. we'll see where this goes...


*The Seed Depot* bro fyi


Edit: Yeah Cann the trio of powders, lol. May the force be with you!


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## hyroot (May 29, 2013)

If you are in the desert. Dna hydro is sheisty too. They rip you off and act like they are hooking you up. I gave them a deserving review on google reviews. Palm springs hydro is alright. Decent selection. Just don't expect to get good help. A bunch of stoner kids that work there that are not very knowledgeable. Also a new hydro shop in San ber doo. Rip off too. But don't know the name. But its next to a stater bros. 

Then in garden grove there a hydro shop off of haster or batavia. Forgot the name. But you can see it form the 22 freeway. Never been there but here good things.



Have you guys figured out if the barley malt or whatever works? I was about to order some barley seeds from amazon.


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## snowboarder396 (May 29, 2013)

I'm gonna try looking up the nursieries here. Lots good ones considering I'm in a huge agriculture farm area in easterner wa. Also have a good co op for wheat, barely etc. Gonna pick me up some barely and barely berries. Also unmalted wheat and barely I use for beer for brewering. High protein and enzymes


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## kushking42 (May 29, 2013)

Cann label me jealous! What does it cost per gallon for that coconut water when diluted?


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## sullivan666 (May 29, 2013)

I was in LA over the weekend to see on of my favorite bands play 2 nights at the Echo...while I was out my lady was watching the babes. To keep things simple I told her to just dump RO water on em every day or so...I was a bit worried on the drive back that they might be lookin stressed when I got home. Couldn't have been more wrong: 
Taken with my phone so not the best quality, but damn they look good. Far better than my previous grows a couple years back using ocean forest and bottled garbage. ROLS is the real deal.


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## sullivan666 (May 29, 2013)

Cann, looking forward to updates about the barley malt...that sure beats the SST 2.0 recipe. 

Headtreep, are you using the powder yet?


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## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

Very nice sullivan. I cannot agree more. Stupid simple topshelf. I got some Gogi OG harvesting to do soon and the resin is stacked nicely dude. 

What strains are those?


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## sullivan666 (May 29, 2013)

The 2 pictured are bagseed I got from a co-worker in so cal. I remembered the smoke being mediocre at best so I wasn't sure how they'd turn out. This being my first grow back, I wasn't concerned with the best genetics, but I'm pretty damn pleased thus far. My other 2 are bagseed from a friend out here and they look damn good as well.

I bet that Gogi OG is stacked...how's the yield look?


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## headtreep (May 29, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Cann, looking forward to updates about the barley malt...that sure beats the SST 2.0 recipe.
> 
> Headtreep, are you using the powder yet?


Yes I am. Cootz said he tested for nine months and I did my own research. Things seem to make sense to me so I hit the whole garden only to come back to happy plants just like the other SST. All this stuff makes your plants super healthy and they tend to really express themselves. Way more than I've seen before I started this program. Are gardens will just get better so don't get discouraged. My plants were a tad bit lighter than I like this round after ditching my Roots base soil and making my own from scratch. It just takes a little time and effort to get that soil living but well worth the wait in gold literally


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## sullivan666 (May 29, 2013)

Just checked out seed depot forums and signed up. ROLS thread is off to a great start. Had to check out their seed shop too and I'm impressed. Some reputable breeders and good prices. Shipping costs aren't terrible either. Thanks for the heads up!


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## sullivan666 (May 29, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Yes I am. Cootz said he tested for nine months and I did my own research. Things seem to make sense to me so I hit the whole garden only to come back to happy plants just like the other SST. All this stuff makes your plants super healthy and they tend to really express themselves. Way more than I've seen before I started this program. Are gardens will just get better so don't get discouraged. My plants were a tad bit lighter than I like this round after ditching my Roots base soil and making my own from scratch. It just takes a little time and effort to get that soil living but well worth the wait in gold literally


Awesome, I think I'll be going that route as well once I run out of barley seed. 

And yes I am definitely excited for my soil to mature. Next round I'm gonna pop some Nirvana bubbleicious, bagseed from recent trip to Waikiki, and probably Dinafem's blue widow. I have high hopes for em


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## kushking42 (May 30, 2013)

for coco h20 my math came out to 7.5 cents per gallon. does that sound right? $13.39 for 5.8 oz freeze dried. 11 grams equals a glass of water (8 oz)


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## Cann (May 30, 2013)

hmm...by my calculations the $13.39 will make about 1 gallon of coconut h2o (the same as you would buy at the store). that 1 gallon will in turn make about 64 gallons of ready to apply tea (using 1/4 cup per gallon of the rehydrated solution), costing somewhere around ~21 cents per gallon. not sure what you are quoting. i was too lazy to look it up for you before LOL but 7.5 cents seemed too cheap. i think coot has given the breakdown somewhere.....

keep in mind this is late night math after smoking a lot of kief...


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## Cann (May 30, 2013)

the smell of the diastatic malt powder when dissolved in h2o reminds me of brewing 

turns the water real cloudy. hit all the ladies last night w/ diastatic malt @ 1TBS/gal...along w/ aloe, agsil, and TM-7. we'll see how they look when the lights turn on


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## headtreep (May 30, 2013)

Cann said:


> the smell of the diastatic malt powder when dissolved in h2o reminds me of brewing
> 
> turns the water real cloudy. hit all the ladies last night w/ diastatic malt @ 1TBS/gal...along w/ aloe, agsil, and TM-7. we'll see how they look when the lights turn on


My plants were singing/praying more than the bubbled teas I use Cann. I'm able to get a better control I think overall with the powder. 

Get your ass over to TSD already lol.


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## Cann (May 30, 2013)

i'm waitin for my registration to go through!!! I PMed hippy and everything....

exodus.....movement of jah people

for real though - fuck IC. gad damn censorship...


edit: oh, the powder...my problem w/ it is that I used up like 1/4 of my jar last night LOL...i need to buy more soon. a jar a month or something like that. I watered about 35 or 40 gallons last night..so 30 or 40 TBS. its like fresh aloe leaves...they just go too fast. i guess i can probably alternate SST 2.0 and powder..just need to get my lazy ass to do the work. right now i'm sitting in front of an A/C unit, stoned off my ass, not trying to move cause its like 95 out and my body likes the cold. so-cal is not the place to be. forecast for 104 this weekend. might have to get the 2nd AC unit up and running in the flower tent lol


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## Mohican (May 30, 2013)

I was at OC Farm supply today and I checked the Promix price - $31 for members.


Cheers,
Mo


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## hyroot (May 30, 2013)

Mo what is being a whole sale member consist of? Is it like being a member of costco? You pay a membership fee to get better deals? Is that the. 3.8 cu ft bag too?


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## headtreep (May 30, 2013)

Cann said:


> i'm waitin for my registration to go through!!! I PMed hippy and everything....
> 
> exodus.....movement of jah people
> 
> ...


Yeah man I hear that. That's a good idea actually. Heat sucks man it's fuckin gonna be the same over here this weekend in the desert lol. The thing is where I live the heat never lets up 8 months out of the year so AC is must. I have a separate AC in my room. I would fire another unit up if it going to be a long heatwave. Fuck stressing a crop for 500 bucks. That's just me....


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## kushking42 (May 30, 2013)

what are they censoring over @ the mag?


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## Cann (May 30, 2013)

its complicated...basically members of a private group were talking about starting another forum site..money was discussed..IC didnt take kindly to that, admins deleted the posts, and when challenged they immediately banned a few members and started deleting more posts. I was one of the members who got kicked out of the group..woke up this morning and I just couldn't access a bunch of stuff..couldnt see posts I made last night, etc. 

here is a c/p from gas with his new acct over on seed depot:
_
"*Admin at ICmag became upset because we were talking about running away from home in a private discussion...I challenged Skip's quickness to act out the power of censorship and was further censored....so consequently I was punished for questioning his actions. I hacked MGD's account (my girl) and they banned her even though she had no clue. Which only goes to show how censorship is a socially damaging issue that further opens the door to the issues of humanity that we have come so far to change as a global community..**
Gas

*__*C-ya ICmag~*"_

and this, which is also important:

_*"Me and MGD will not support the censorship of ICmag. Unacceptable.....we hope this will be more friendly to certain human rights.

Looks like this site could be the source for Blue Orca x NL#5/Neville's Haze beans since the 'Zazen' seed donation project is hereby cancelled at ICmag.....

Anyway,lets see what happens here and how 'cool' this place actually is....onward and upward with ROLS/No-till cannabis gardening.
Peace all
*__*Gas"*_


looks like its time to pack up the bags....


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## hyroot (May 30, 2013)

I was banned from there for talking about Apollo leds. Psuagro and splifferous and chazbolin were banned for their threads just cause they use Inda gro lights. Splifferous was banned from here for his Inda Gro thread. Pretty much if you post a link on here or on other forums to another forum if its not already blocked. You will be banned. If you show support for any products regardless of affiliation or not. Or if you ust like them. You will be banned. All forums take on a communist like structure. It is what it is.


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## Mohican (May 30, 2013)

What is it that they think they are protecting?


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## hyroot (May 30, 2013)

Their insecurity. Some mods and they know who they are. Don't know the first thing about growing. Will argue their point to death no matter how wrong they are. They get put in their place then get all but hurt for their own stupidity. Some mods are just haters and they can't help themselves..

Then there are a few mods that are actually growers and very knowledgeable.. They make this a happy place.


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## Comacus (May 30, 2013)

I have heard a couple of methods. Bury a tuna can or small cup so the lip is only slightly above ground level, and put a little beer or vegetable oil in it. The earwigs are attracted to the liquid get in it and drown.


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## Cann (May 31, 2013)

lol gad damnit...still waiting for approval from seed depot mods....i want to post! can't even see pics! i'll be there soon invo....


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## snowboarder396 (May 31, 2013)

Cann, I love the smell of brewing and malt.. Mmm lol I agree it smells so good! One of my all time favorite smells. Also here's a link for a little information on the Clackamas blueberry tomatoes 
http://www.tomwagnerseeds.com/index.php/tomato-collections/clackamas-blueberry.html 

Here's a link for vast variety tomatoes so many ! 
http://newworldcrops.com/wp/uncategorized/tomato-seeds-available-this-year/


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## hyroot (May 31, 2013)

Cann said:


> lol gad damnit...still waiting for approval from seed depot mods....i want to post! can't even see pics! i'll be there soon invo....


Maybe refresh your email. Sometimes they don't show up with gmail or Yahoo. They activated mine within 4 hours of signing up.


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## Cann (May 31, 2013)

just got activated about an hour ago  ...i imagine they have a lot of new accounts to go through haha..a bit backed up at the moment. lots of applicants...


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## headtreep (May 31, 2013)

If you ever get into a fight with the old lady this is how you get her back lol.


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## jubiare (May 31, 2013)

^^^^^^ lol


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## hyroot (Jun 1, 2013)

If I use canna mulch that came from an chemy hydro grow. Would I be using chems? Lol


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## Rising Moon (Jun 1, 2013)

Biodynamic Living Soil

Chemdawg 91 X Snow Lotus (House of Funk!)


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## Mohican (Jun 1, 2013)

I talked to the OC Farm Store guy about Promix BX and he said something interesting. It is complete and ready to grow and it does not need amending. In fact he said that when it is amended it does not work as well.

So I tried an experiment using straight Promix in my last 18 pots for my seedlings. The interesting thing I noticed was when I watered the soil it stayed the same size and didn't shrink as much as the Sunshine#4.


My compost pile is still cooking:



Cheers, 
Mo


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## Cann (Jun 1, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I talked to the OC Farm Store guy about Promix BX and he said something interesting. It is complete and ready to grow and it does not need amending. In fact he said that when it is amended it does not work as well.


hmm...did he elaborate on this at all? cause i'm sitting here looking at the ingredients of ProMix BX and it seems like it could use some amending....


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## Mohican (Jun 1, 2013)

No he didn't, other than to say that if I were to try and get a similar product made locally it would cost more like $100/bag!?

So I am trying the experiment to see what happens. 

A weird observation though, my super soil (with Promix as a base) never grew a web, and Promix by itself always grow a web.


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## hyroot (Jun 1, 2013)

Mohican said:


> No he didn't, other than to say that if I were to try and get a similar product made locally it would cost more like $100/bag!?
> 
> So I am trying the experiment to see what happens.
> 
> A weird observation though, my super soil (with Promix as a base) never grew a web, and Promix by itself always grow a web.


Does he know what you are using pro mix for? If you are growing lettuce or artichokes or avocados or what ever. That would probably be enough. For what we do.... most likely not.


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## Cann (Jun 1, 2013)

_"The Jesus Effect" 
_
observed ~24hrs after application of the test batch of diastatic malt powder @ 1TBS/gal. 

seems pretty good so far LOL

View attachment 2681929


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## Mohican (Jun 1, 2013)

Yup - they have been getting more and more medicinal grow products. Now they are getting rid of most of them. They have some great deals on a few GH and AN nutes and various sizes of rockwool.

It was funny last year when I was researching what soil I wanted to get, I narrowed my choice down to Promix BX. Then I went to the Farm Store and I asked a million questions (they really do know some cool tricks) and then I asked about bag soil and they suggested a few things that I didn't like and then they asked "what are you growing" to which I said "medicinal" the guy smiled and said "for medicinal you want Promix BX, it is what everybody is using!" That is when I decided that these guys know a good deal about growing many things 


I got a few pink seedlings today and a 3-leafer:




 


Cheers,
Mo


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 2, 2013)

"_The Jeebus Effect_"... *Flo x Jack Herer* 

View attachment 2682497





















Had to get it on dis Cann


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## Cann (Jun 2, 2013)

very nice! now thats some turgor pressure 

coconut h2o or sprouted seed tea? (or diastatic malt?)

or just plain ol' aloe?


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## dl290485 (Jun 2, 2013)

I wish the search worked easier- sorry i'm going to have to ask while it's being mentioned.

Is SST (or diastatic malt) just a soil drench or is it a foliar? Or is it both?


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## Cann (Jun 2, 2013)

cootz recommends soil application only...the enzymes don't do much in the phyllosphere.


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## Nader (Jun 2, 2013)

going to try osha root (Ligusticum porteri) as a PM spray.. feel like I should've tested this long ago given the roots inability to ever get rotten/moldy. I have plenty of tincture and dried root, might as well give it a go


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 2, 2013)

Cann said:


> very nice! now thats some turgor pressure
> 
> coconut h2o or sprouted seed tea? (or diastatic malt?)
> 
> or just plain ol' aloe?


Organic Homegrown Aloe vera 


My aloe leaves are hitting 24" long, I feed my aloe, aloe. Is that vannibalistic?


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## Samuel Caldwell (Jun 3, 2013)

Cann--your mailbox if full. Shoot me a PM. Thanks. 

jd


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## dl290485 (Jun 3, 2013)

Wowsers SpliffAndMyLady, that pic is cool. I'm an atheist... but I want my plants to pray like that every day 

Right after reading you say that's what you use, I went and picked some fresh leaves and did a foliar spray.
I've read that it can be used as both a soil drench and a foliar, but does everyone do both or is the spray good enough by itself? I ask this because I watered yesterday and didn't want to wet the soil down again so soon. Should I be trying to incorporate an aloe drench or be content with just foliar?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 3, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> Wowsers SpliffAndMyLady, that pic is cool. I'm an atheist... but I want my plants to pray like that every day
> 
> Right after reading you say that's what you use, I went and picked some fresh leaves and did a foliar spray.
> I've read that it can be used as both a soil drench and a foliar, but does everyone do both or is the spray good enough by itself? I ask this because I watered yesterday and didn't want to wet the soil down again so soon. Should I be trying to incorporate an aloe drench or be content with just foliar?


Both work, but soil drenching is better. You use more when you apply it to your soil though.


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## sullivan666 (Jun 3, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Both work, but soil drenching is better. You use more when you apply it to your soil though.


I've been using it almost exclusively as a foliar...I think I may have used it as drench once a month or so back. After that pic, I'm gonna drench with it more often


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## dl290485 (Jun 3, 2013)

I see... I can't wait for my soil to dry out now


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## sullivan666 (Jun 3, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> I see... I can't wait for my soil to dry out now


Don't let it get too dry...the consensus here seems to be keep the soil constantly moist for a healthy soil food web. Personally, I soil drench at least 3-4 times per week and foliar 4-5 times per week. I know others foliar and/or drench everyday with no ill effects.

I'd watch the moisture content when they're youngins...its easy to overwater the babies, but once they're established its less of an issue.


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## dl290485 (Jun 3, 2013)

lol thanks for the lesson... but I already know that bit. I just meant 'more dry' not 'no moisture' 
And ya, they are only about 3 or 4 weeks old from seed.


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## hyroot (Jun 3, 2013)

Drank and ate some fresh coconut water and oil. Holy shyt that gave me a gnarly rush. I'm "medicated" too. Time to go water the girls.


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## Rising Moon (Jun 3, 2013)

Has anyone any thoughts on kombutcha as one of these magic boosters...?

I was thinking the PH would be way low, but then I remembered Cann spraying with apple cider vinegar for PM, so maybe Kombutcha for PM..?

Its got all sorts of B vitamins, amino acids and beneficials. 

What do you guys think?


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## OldGrowth420 (Jun 3, 2013)

Diggin this thread, good vibrations to all of you.

Enjoy 

[video=youtube;_Oalu4XDi3g]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Oalu4XDi3g[/video]


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## jubiare (Jun 3, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> Don't let it get too dry...the consensus here seems to be keep the soil constantly moist for a healthy soil food web. Personally, I soil drench at least 3-4 times per week and foliar 4-5 times per week. I know others foliar and/or drench everyday with no ill effects.
> 
> I'd watch the moisture content when they're youngins...its easy to overwater the babies, but once they're established its less of an issue.


^^^^^^^^that


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## hyroot (Jun 3, 2013)

For those who use fresh coconut water from a coconut. I have tried using various amounts. I found 1/4 cup (1/2 - 1 coconut usually) per 5 gal is all you need. Its definitely more concentrate than bottled coconut water. That has showed best results. I ll post pics when they wake up. I watered with coconut water last night/morning. 10 min after watering they were all praying. A few clones in cups that got watered were instantly reaching for the sky.


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## headtreep (Jun 3, 2013)

hyroot said:


> For those who use fresh coconut water from a coconut. I have tried using various amounts. I found 1/4 cup (1/2 - 1 coconut usually) per 5 gal is all you need. Its definitely more concentrate than bottled coconut water. That has showed best results. I ll post pics when they wake up. I watered with coconut water last night/morning. 10 min after watering they were all praying. A few clones in cups that got watered were instantly reaching for the sky.


Good observation man. It's been awhile since I used the fresh stuff. I think I used a whole coconut for 5 gal but yours makes more sense.


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## dl290485 (Jun 3, 2013)

*Hyroot*- how often do you do you use coconut? Also just to clarify, is this a drench, foliar or both?


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## hyroot (Jun 3, 2013)

^^^^^^^ soil drench. I do coconut every other time. Then compost teas for the rest. When I get paid I'm going try some of that malted barley powder.

With coconuts. theres usually 3 holes like a bowling ball. The holes are some what sealed with coco. Just poke all the holes with a screw driver then drain. Strain water with cheese cloth or something similar. For some reason I've gotten better results when I have strained the water than when I haven't.


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 3, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> Has anyone any thoughts on kombutcha as one of these magic boosters...?
> 
> I was thinking the PH would be way low, but then I remembered Cann spraying with apple cider vinegar for PM, so maybe Kombutcha for PM..?
> 
> ...


Never hhurts to try.. I love kombucha. I brew it at home and mix up my own with different juices like you'd see at the store. So much cheaper to make your own!


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## HÃ¿dra (Jun 3, 2013)

Im only halfway through the thread so far, but it seems to me with all the coco, perlite etc that this will give very high growth rates. Coupled with the different foliar sprays that seem to give amazing bursts of growth that this will be great for someone doing a 1-2 plant 6 week veg scrog setup! 

So just to get this straight, i can make 20 or so gallons of this ROLS soils and reuse it almost indefinitely, and by re- amending it every so often i will never have to use bottled nutes, just water for ever......... and produce the level of meds H-treep does?? WIth those deep green leaves? I'm sold.


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## dl290485 (Jun 4, 2013)

Cool. I told my wife this morning hyroots coconut story and while she was out she bought 2 coconuts without me having asked for them 

Lucky you mentioned how to get the liquid out... I probably would of put them in a big bowl and hit it with a hammer or something else equally messy 

I'm assuming not, but would there be any problem with putting the coconut and aloe in the same bucket to do em at the same time?


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## hyroot (Jun 4, 2013)

^^^^ that would have broken the bowl. I just got finished drying out the coconut flesh. 2 coconuts made a shit load of coconut to eat. Now got to go and do some work in the veg. Take some pics. Post later. Ima lagger blah blah blah.

Cann Im lazy too. Thank god for rols.......lol


Ohh. Aloe is fine in both. Fresh aloe is only good for 20 min. So add it right before you water.

Ive been using aloe in almost every watering. Depending on if I have any or not.


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## dl290485 (Jun 4, 2013)

I meant a plastic bowl... but yes that probably would of cracked too lol

I don't even like the taste of coconut... it'll be up to someone else to eat it for me


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## Cann (Jun 4, 2013)

Hÿdra;9165377 said:


> So just to get this straight, i can make 20 or so gallons of this ROLS soils and reuse it almost indefinitely, and by re- amending it every so often i will *never have to use bottled nutes*, just water for ever......... and produce the level of meds H-treep does?? WIth those deep green leaves? I'm sold.


 welcome to the recycled living soil party. feel free to ask any questions you might have after reading through the thread...

headtreeps pictures are pretty damn convincing, eh?


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## HÃ¿dra (Jun 4, 2013)

Cann said:


> welcome to the recycled living soil party. feel free to ask any questions you might have after reading through the thread...
> 
> headtreeps pictures are pretty damn convincing, eh?


Ya Headtreep knows whats up for sure. YOu as well Cann...... 
See ihave shrapnel in my spinal cord area so bending and lifting is basically not going to happen..... making alot of gardening cannabis 1000% more difficult for me. SO i LOOOOOOVE the idea of making a large batch of soil and keeping it in the same pot and only refilling with amendments. Also the water only feeding si SO nice.....its why i LOVE super soil, that way i can have my SO do teh watering and leave everything else to me. division of labor and all^^ 

So is the list of start up mats found on page 2 the go to recipe? I see quite a few so im curious as to which one ill work best for me. I think ill like teh drainage/quick growth of teh coco/perlite/peat + amendments. seems almost like it would be 2/3 hempy bucket with some dirt thrown in....how close to fact is that?


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## HÃ¿dra (Jun 4, 2013)

Question....how do yu harvest plants in this soil?? Do you just shake as much soil out of teh root ball as possible????? or is that how you obtain the extra space for new amendments???


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## headtreep (Jun 4, 2013)

Hÿdra;9166773 said:


> Question....how do yu harvest plants in this soil?? Do you just shake as much soil out of teh root ball as possible????? or is that how you obtain the extra space for new amendments???


You cut it from the base and leave the stump like you would outside with a big ass tree. The little stump will slowly decompose and break down.


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## HÃ¿dra (Jun 4, 2013)

SO the roots, and the stump are broken down?? how long does that take??? Will i need to make 4-5 pots and rotate them after use? Allowing enough time for the stump and roots to break down???? OR can i just plant next to the stump?


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## headtreep (Jun 4, 2013)

Hÿdra;9167288 said:


> SO the roots, and the stump are broken down?? how long does that take??? Will i need to make 4-5 pots and rotate them after use? Allowing enough time for the stump and roots to break down???? OR can i just plant next to the stump?


No waiting involved bro. Picture a big ass tree in your head outside and think about what you would do if you wanted to cut it down and plant something next it to it. Would you be waiting for the stump to decompose? Not my lazy ass, Id plant and go!


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## headtreep (Jun 4, 2013)

Living Soil nugs

E$ko Double Chocolate (chocolope x cocoa kush) x cocoa kush


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## Samuel Caldwell (Jun 4, 2013)

Cann--Your mailbox is full again. No worries, bro. Thanks for the info. 

I've got to go back and read this thread from the beginning so I can join the fun. I've got a couple 20 gallon no-till ROLS pots running. I just bought some GRD, crab shell and EWC today. I'm trying to coordinate with a friend to get some horse manure to get my worm bins started. Probably this weekend.

More later after I'm caught up.


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## headtreep (Jun 4, 2013)

Samuel Caldwell said:


> Cann--Your mailbox is full again. No worries, bro. Thanks for the info.
> 
> I've got to go back and read this thread from the beginning so I can join the fun. I've got a couple 20 gallon no-till ROLS pots running. I just bought some GRD, crab shell and EWC today. I'm trying to coordinate with a friend to get some horse manure to get my worm bins started. Probably this weekend.
> 
> More later after I'm caught up.


Better him than me, lol.


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## sullivan666 (Jun 5, 2013)

headtreep said:


> You cut it from the base and leave the stump like you would outside with a big ass tree. The little stump will slowly decompose and break down.


Haven't heard of a couple of those...I've got a lot of reading material in the queue already but I'll def check some of these out. Thanks!


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## sullivan666 (Jun 5, 2013)

Anybody else getting this message when trying to access the forums over at TSD?

[h=1]Forbidden[/h]You don't have permission to access / on this server.


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## sullivan666 (Jun 5, 2013)

Nvm, I just got in...


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## hyroot (Jun 5, 2013)

2 more observations.

1: I have not been using aloe in a foliar the past week. Waiting for powder. Any how every plant I sprayed with a kelp foliar. Made from steeping kelp meal for 2 days then straining. 10 min after each application in veg and 1st week of flower and veggies outside. Everything was super perky. First time this week using kelp meal alone in a foliar.

my whole place smells like Newport Pier. ( you know cause of the kelp)


2: I had 2 cuttings sitting in a shot glass of water for 2 days. i changed water with diluted coconut water. Several hours later, both cuttings each have 1 root, 2 cm long. So add coconut water when cloning.


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## dl290485 (Jun 5, 2013)

Clones rooted in 2 days in water and coconut water?


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## hyroot (Jun 5, 2013)

Im shocked too. I keep cuttings in water when I procrastinate on doing clones. To keep them alive. Not actual cloning method. They barely have a root though.


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## dl290485 (Jun 5, 2013)

!!


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## GrowBrooklyn (Jun 5, 2013)

headtreep said:


>


How is Teaming With Nutrients? Was thinking of getting it since Teaming With Microbes is so good.


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## headtreep (Jun 5, 2013)

Both are great but since TWN is newer I haven't finished it. I don't read all books cover to cover personally since I have many going at once typically.


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## Cann (Jun 6, 2013)

I have almost all those books LOL....its funny, I was gonna take a book picture and upload it as well..just got TWN the other day, pretty excited to read it (although I don't know if i'll have time/need to with all the activity on TSD...christ). 

Sam - sorry bout the mailbox...fills up really fast and there is only a 50 message limit! too many folks sending me PMs about pH meters and shit...LOL. i might have to c/p some old messages into a word document to make room LOL...theres some good info in those messages that I can't just delete to make space!


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## Cann (Jun 6, 2013)

~13 days after cutting off the plant, dipping straight into 200x aloe powder (making sure not to dip it in water first!), then placing into the rapidrooter. 

can't get much easier than that. solid root development


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## Cann (Jun 6, 2013)

Also, Hydra - you're going to need more in your pot than just coco, peat, and perlite + amendments if you want to have success with a no-till operation. humus is key. at least 25% of the soil should be premium (preferably homemade) compost or vermicompost. I prefer to use 33% if I can afford it...

without the humus your soil will never be complete. it's as simple as that.


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## headtreep (Jun 6, 2013)

Cann said:


> Also, Hydra - you're going to need more in your pot than just coco, peat, and perlite + amendments if you want to have success with a no-till operation. humus is key. at least 25% of the soil should be premium (preferably homemade) compost or vermicompost. I prefer to use 33% if I can afford it...
> 
> without the humus your soil will never be complete. it's as simple as that.


Most of my $$$ goes to vermicompost/compost and humus building. That's my focus at least as I like to make sure my leaves are nice and deep green. Matter of fact I'm going to start some more soil today


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 6, 2013)

So do you guys just keep your plants deep green up until chop without any fade?


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## hyroot (Jun 6, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> So do you guys just keep your plants deep green up until chop without any fade?


I try too. I have a couple that are fading tough in week 7 flower My northern lights og is a phos and potassium hog. First run with clones of this strain though. I think they got light bleaching too.. my Hindu skunk is doing the same. My master kush and cheese berry and soma rock bud are all dark green.


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## Cann (Jun 6, 2013)

mine usually fade...i think its more about the plant aging than actually depleting the nutrients in the soil...

thats just my take on it though..

i can chop a yellowed out plant @ 9 weeks, repot a clone the same day, and it will grow lush and green until the last week or two of flower...then I rinse and repeat. they always seem to fade, yet there never seems to be a lack of nutrients. i blame senescence...

i enjoy seeing fall colors in my plants...all green to the end is boring LOL


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## headtreep (Jun 6, 2013)

Cann said:


> mine usually fade...i think its more about the plant aging than actually depleting the nutrients in the soil...
> 
> thats just my take on it though..
> 
> ...


yes cann exactly.


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## headtreep (Jun 6, 2013)

My soil is the same for all plants. The plants do as they wish. Some fade and some don't as much. I have said the same thing before to other gardeners that would say my leaves were too green towards the end of the flower.


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## hyroot (Jun 6, 2013)

Started a thread here in organics. My pics will be found there. I finally got off my ass and took some pictures lololol

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/665524-hyroots-rols-no-till.html


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## headtreep (Jun 6, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Started a thread here in organics. My pics will be found there. I finally got off my ass and took some pictures lololol
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/organics/665524-hyroots-rols-no-till.html


Cool man headed their now.


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## Cann (Jun 6, 2013)

headtreep said:


> My soil is the same for all plants. The plants do as they wish. Some fade and some don't as much. I have said the same thing before to other gardeners that would say my leaves were too green towards the end of the flower.



yeah..some plants yellow way more than others. i don't mess w/ it...the plant is in control...always and forever. 

check out how many threads there are about yellowing @ 6 weeks lol. "oh no my fan leaves are starting to die off at week 6....". 

i'm at week 3 currently and my ladies have already started to drop a lot of their lower interior leaves which aren't getting enough light. no need for stressful "defoliation" pruning techniques lol...the lady will do it herself. you don't just rip the clothes off a girl, you wait until she takes them off herself...slowly.....lol


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 7, 2013)

Love the fading colors esp. For some strains it can be very nice.. have Any of you run blue moon rocks from bushy old grower.. Def. Wanna try that strain out or one his others.


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## headtreep (Jun 7, 2013)

snowboarder396 said:


> Love the fading colors esp. For some strains it can be very nice.. have Any of you run blue moon rocks from bushy old grower.. Def. Wanna try that strain out or one his others.


Yeah I have 2 females actually in veg. I've never had it though.


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## sullivan666 (Jun 7, 2013)

^jealous man, I def wanna get some old school genetics at some point...maybe even...the one hahaa!


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## sullivan666 (Jun 7, 2013)

Cann said:


> mine usually fade...i think its more about the plant aging than actually depleting the nutrients in the soil...
> 
> thats just my take on it though..
> 
> ...


I'm glad this was brought up because I'm currently 8-9 weeks in and the buds are looking almost ripe, but only one plant has somewhat yellowing leaves...the rest are lush. I thought I should wait til the leaves started to yellow and curl, but it seems I need to pay more attention to the flower than the leaf...makes sense, lol.


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## Cann (Jun 7, 2013)

funny you guys mention "the one" and blue moon rocks...

I have 3 TO x BMR Bx1 in flower right now  they're starting to smell really nice at just over 3 weeks



starting to get a few crispy leaves...think I may have overdone it w/ the TM-7  need to make sure I level out my tablespoons instead of heaping them......

most of the plants are getting a few crispy leaves..hoping they don't progress too far...damn BioAg stuff is potent!!!!


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## headtreep (Jun 7, 2013)

TM-7 burns planta like Subs Super Soil haha. I used too much as stated before and killed all my God's Gifts in mid flower. Typically my teas or nute solutions are concentrated and diluted down but I'm careful on my measurements to start with especially that stuff. Seems you prob learned your lesson and lucky it wasn't like mine where the plant went jurassic that not flush in the world could save like coot mentioned. It looked like a weed someone sprayed roundup on literally. Be careful with TM-7 everyone and use what the directions state. Maybe even start at the lowest recommendation.


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 7, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> I'm glad this was brought up because I'm currently 8-9 weeks in and the buds are looking almost ripe, but only one plant has somewhat yellowing leaves...the rest are lush. I thought I should wait til the leaves started to yellow and curl, but it seems I need to pay more attention to the flower than the leaf...makes sense, lol.


Actually you really wanna pay attention to the trichomes.. depending on the type of high you want. Leave some clear for more speedy, head high. Same with cloudy depending on the strain will depend on the high. More amber ones will lead to a more couch lock feeling type high with the more amber you have. either way you wanna let the thricomes tell you when there done.


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 7, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Yeah I have 2 females actually in veg. I've never had it though.



2 Female blue moon rocks? how you liking the plants and how they are looking and smelling so far? def. post some pics up please. and also a report after flower finishes. I would love some blue moon rock seeds also I heard lifesavers was good. hes doing some more crosses. i believe one is a strawberry kush or sour.. ill have check them out again see what hes doing.


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## headtreep (Jun 7, 2013)

Yep 2 females and tell you the truth I havent bother to smell. One is just put into flower and the other vegging still. I'll keep you posted on the status sb396.


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## dl290485 (Jun 7, 2013)

Arhh I found spider mites  !!!

I don't have any neem oil and don't want to go buy a poison from a garden store. 

Right now i'm simmering some dry chili, garlic & nutmeg with water.... Any of you knowledgeable folks here want to guess if this concoction will help or not or want to throw me some suggestions?


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## hyroot (Jun 8, 2013)

pure spray green works really well on spidermites.. its organic and omri listed too

bring down temps. spidermites are attracted to heat. thats why they hang out at the top of a plant..


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## headtreep (Jun 8, 2013)

There is a cilantro recipe somewhere in this thread for that. Spinosad like Capt Jacks start with that every 3 days. Peppermint, lavender dr bronners soap.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 8, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> Arhh I found spider mites  !!!
> 
> I don't have any neem oil and don't want to go buy a poison from a garden store.
> 
> Right now i'm simmering some dry chili, garlic & nutmeg with water.... Any of you knowledgeable folks here want to guess if this concoction will help or not or want to throw me some suggestions?


very cheap solution is habaneros pepper my friend, 

use a garlic crusher and crush everything (with the seeds) , place in a pot of water, bring the water to an almost boil and let simmer for 20 minutes. I think you dont want it to boil or not for too long because it will reduce it's effectiveness. Strain, and dilute with water (not sure of the ratio anymore but I dont think you can really harm the plants so if the infestation is bad go stronger than weaker ...)


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## Mohican (Jun 8, 2013)

Dish-soap and water.


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 8, 2013)

Mohican dish soap has actually been found to be bad for plants, why a lot gardeners stop using it on vveggies outdoors. As well as it can kill good microbes


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## Mohican (Jun 8, 2013)

Thanks, it was an old school method. When I use soapy water to kill bugs I catch on my nightly patrol it sure kills them quickly


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## jcmjrt (Jun 9, 2013)

Start off by making the basic environment inhospitable to mites - lower temps and increase humidity - and then use an appropriate method like soap and water or habanero/garlic, etc


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## dl290485 (Jun 9, 2013)

lol it's not so easy to 'make the environment inhospitable'
I live in a sub-tropical region of Australia. I looked up what temperature I have to get it under: 18'c... right now it's coming into winter (or is? I always forget the months seasons start) and the current temperature according to google is 17 C... at 12:38am..... so ya, I would have to be running a frickin air conditioner right now to get it 'inhospitable' for the mites, and when the sun rises, my portable air con will be hard pressed to get the temperature under 20'c. I thought about doing it but then I thought about my power bill.

I found some neem oil online and it's on sale but I can't wait for it to be posted- so I looked around locally and all I could find was a product called Eco-Neem. It's organic certified and is an extract of the principal compounds of Neem oil. I'll keep applying it every 3 days for a while and then weekly until the plants start to bud (still vegging atm). From now on I'll be doing weekly preemptive spraying with this or proper neem oil.


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## NickNasty (Jun 9, 2013)

Get some predator mites. I have always found the best way to get rid of bugs is other bugs. This will work the majority of the time although I have found some instances where this only drops the population down but in those cases its still a lot easier to kill them once the population has decreased a ton then dealing with them when the infestation is full blown. But remember your neem, poison, etc. will kill the good bugs along with the bad so don't use it in conjunction with stuff like that. 

Why do all the work when you can get a bug to do it for you?

http://www.naturescontrol.com/mite.html


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## Cann (Jun 9, 2013)

_*"It's organic certified and is an extract of the principal compounds of Neem oil."​

*_

Do you know which compounds it contains in particular? azadirachtin is going to be one of them most likely...

some compounds in neem are more useful than others for their insecticidal benefits. IMO proper neem oil is your best bet...i'd recommend Ahimsa but you probably already know that lol



oh yeah..and if you're looking for predatory mites - hypoaspis miles is your friend


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## Mohican (Jun 9, 2013)

I think you can use olive oil or sunflower oil also. Try a local agriculture university web site for good local pest control ideas that will match your local conditions.


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 9, 2013)

Ok, so squishing earwigs at midnight everynight I get home from work after long shift isn't working to well. Thought there population was going down not as many holes in my leaves now but there still all over. Last night kinda open my zucchini flowers since noticed an earwig trying get in it. There was a whole family of em in just one flower! Don't think the zucchini needs the flower to keep growing so took that flower off the end of that zucchini. I'm thinking they just really like the moisture.. so been looking for another alternative. Was reading up a lot on de which if food grade not pool one is organic and pretty much pure silicia .. fossilized algae. People actually eat it and nix it with water to drink from what read. Also if you eat anhything has wheat or flour in it your eating de as well, as the farmers mix it with their wheat so bugs don't try eat it up. It's also in tooth paste. The way de works is with bugs with exoskeleton shells it shreds them like glass and dehydrates kills them.. no chemicals all physical. Since it's silica it acts like glass shards on the bugs. So what I plan do is lay line around my potted plants to get the earwigs then in the garden bed I made to kill earwigs before transplant. Also use compost teas for garden beds get good microlife going. Only bad thing read on de was the pool kind if inhaling the dust it may cause cancer after several years inhaling because it is cut with other chemicals


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## Mohican (Jun 9, 2013)

I tried de last year. I even posted a picture of my plant covered in white powder. Made a joke that I was trying cocane powder on my plants to make them grow faster! It didn't seem to slow the earwigs down a bit. My best results were achieved when I used a combination of neem, bt, and sevin.

I have not tried spinosad yet. I hear it works well and is least harmful to beneficial organisms.

Did you try the tuna can with veg oil and a drop of tuna oil? Bury it so the lip of the can is even with the top of the soil.

Cheers, 
Mo


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## Cann (Jun 9, 2013)

I think DE only works if it stays dry....at least thats my understanding of how it functions as a mechanical insecticide vs. a chemical insecticide.

I have food grade DE that i consume on occasion, and also use for spider control around my garage...good shit for black widows 


i'd try neem cake or neem oil..or maybe try to trap them? not sure..


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 9, 2013)

Mohican I would maybe try sevin but only if it was for regular yard plants not veggies. Sevin is a chemical pesticide that can be very harmful if ingested . Veggie plants sprayed with it would absorb and therefore you would absorb it as well. And cann your Def. Right de has to be dry to work. If it gets wet it was to be reapplied.. I'll also set out some beer traps but gonna try de as well


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## Mohican (Jun 9, 2013)

Sevin has been in use for over 40 years without problems. You can use it up until harvest on many veggies. I use it primarily in the first 3 weeks of veg to nuke the nasties. I am a little late this year. After the Sevin, I use neem and BT to maintain the barrier. 

Cheers,
Mo


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 9, 2013)

I don't think sevin would be to good for the good microbes and bugs though. I try to stay away from any kind of pesticides, insecticide, or herbicides. It may be a pain in the Ass sometimes but to me I believe it's worth it


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## hyroot (Jun 9, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Get some predator mites. I have always found the best way to get rid of bugs is other bugs. This will work the majority of the time although I have found some instances where this only drops the population down but in those cases its still a lot easier to kill them once the population has decreased a ton then dealing with them when the infestation is full blown. But remember your neem, poison, etc. will kill the good bugs along with the bad so don't use it in conjunction with stuff like that.
> 
> Why do all the work when you can get a bug to do it for you?
> 
> http://www.naturescontrol.com/mite.html



All you need is compost for that. Especially alsakan humus. Predator mites moult on forest floors and in compost. I've told people this a million times. Bugs don't like compost. Ever since the first time I top dressed with compost. I have not had a single bug.. that was quite a long time ago. Prior to that I would get the occasional spider mites and I had a gnarly gnat infestation. I tried everything under the sun. Nothing worked. By accident I found out compost got rid of them.


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## dl290485 (Jun 9, 2013)

Eco-Neem:

"11.82 g/L AZADIRACHTIN A and B present as 29.55 g/L Azadirachta indica extract"


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## Mohican (Jun 9, 2013)

My compost is full of earwigs and red spider mites.


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## Cann (Jun 9, 2013)

if it's only azadirachtin I wouldn't fux with it....there are many many more important compounds in neem when it comes to this sort of thing. why people focus on azadirachtin and isolate it is beyond me....it works in conjunction w/ all the other compounds in neem...but by itself it's not the greatest. 

is there anything stopping you from getting some ahimsa neem oil? shit...even the garden safe brand neem is better than just azadirachtin...they sell that @ lowes I think..

hyroot - Alaska humus or ancient forest or any of those deals are actually just peat moss....repackaged, relabeled, and sold at a huge markup. it is not the scrapings from some secret GH forest patch....its peat. definitely not going to have any insect suppression qualities IMO. fresh homemade vermicompost on the other hand....you betcha. my 2cents: never buy a bag of ancient forest again...especially if you are looking for "compost" or something to brew a tea with...if you are looking for concentrated microbial activity you want to go elsewhere...although the ancient forest will have some microbial activity (as much as a bale of premier peat...). homemade vermicompost FTW


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## Cann (Jun 9, 2013)

If you buy a product w/ just azadirachtin - here is what you're missing:

_Taken from this article published by the University of Waikato, New Zealand. _

_
"Neem protects itself from the multitude of pests with a multitude of pesticidal ingredients. Its main chemical broadside is a mixture of 3 or 4 related compounds, and it backs these up with 20 or so others that are minor but nonetheless active in one way or another. In the main, these compounds belong to a general class of natural products called "triterpenes"; more specifically, "limonoids."
So far, *at least nine neem limonoids have demonstrated an ability to block insect growth*, affecting a range of species that includes some of the most deadly pests of agriculture and human health. New limonoids are still being discovered in neem, but Azadirachtin, Salannin, Meliantriol and Nimbin are the best known and, for now at least, seem to be the most significant.

*Meliantriol

*Another feeding inhibitor, Meliantriol, is able, in extremely low concentrations, to cause insects to cease eating. The demonstration of its ability to prevent locusts chewing on crops was the first scientific proof for neem's traditional use for insect control on India's crops.
*
Salannin

*Yet a third triterpenoid isolated from neem is Salannin. Studies indicate that this compound also powerfully inhibits feeding, but does not influence insect molts. The migratory locust, California red scale, striped cucumber beetle, houseflies, and the Japanese beetle have been strongly deterred in both laboratory and field tests.*

Nimbin and Nimbidin

*Two more neem components, Nimbin and Nimbidin, have been found to have antiviral activity. They affect potato virus X, vaccinia virus, and fowl pox virus. They could perhaps open a way to control these and other viral diseases of crops and livestock.

Nimbidin is the primary component of the bitter principles obtained when neem seeds are extracted with alcohol. It occurs in sizable quantities - about 2% of the kernel.*

Others

*Certain minor ingredients also work as antihormones. Research has shown that some of these minor neem chemicals even paralyze the "swallowing mechanism" and so prevent insects from eating. Examples of these newly found limonoids from neem include DeacetylAzadirachtinol. This ingredient, isolated from fresh fruits, appears to be as effective as Azadirachtin in assays against the tobacco budworm, but it has not yet been widely tested in field practice."
_

This is the reason why products like Azamax and Azatrol often don't work as well as advertised...and why organic high grade neem oii kicks ass! also FWIW ahimsa oil has between 2-3x the active ingredients (limonoids) than garden safe or other non-organic brands. making it even more worthwhile to invest in quality once and never look back...

hope that helps convince you not to buy the eco smart LOL


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## hyroot (Jun 9, 2013)

Cann said:


> hyroot - Alaska humus or ancient forest or any of those deals are actually just peat moss....repackaged, relabeled, and sold at a huge markup. it is not the scrapings from some secret GH forest patch....its peat. definitely not going to have any insect suppression qualities IMO. fresh homemade vermicompost on the other hand....you betcha. my 2cents: never buy a bag of ancient forest again...especially if you are looking for "compost" or something to brew a tea with...if you are looking for concentrated microbial activity you want to go elsewhere...although the ancient forest will have some microbial activity (as much as a bale of premier peat...). homemade vermicompost FTW





I buy eco scraps. Haven't bought alaskan forest in 2 years. But the alaskan forest is the one that I have seen the most predator mites in. ( red ones). I have my worm bin. But im a couple months from having my own castings. You are definitely wrong about the insect suppression. I have seen first hand in 5 gardens including 2 of my own and 1 shared then 2 others. Compost is the only thing I use. Never used neem meal or neem cake. Will soon though but mostly for the nutes. Last bug spray I bought or used was pure spray green 4 years ago. I occasionally spray neem oil solution on pm but that's it. Zero bugs indoor and outdoor for years thanks to compost. The only store bought compost I have ever used has been eco scraps and ancient forest


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## dl290485 (Jun 9, 2013)

Argh... I didn't want to buy eco-neem... it was just all I could find in my vicinity.... now you made me worried that I wasted my money and It won't fix the problem 

I was planning to get proper neem oil anyway off a website, but now i'll put more haste into that thought.


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## Cann (Jun 9, 2013)

www.neemresource.com - you won't be dissapointed. the s&h is worth it for the quality..

i'd still apply the eco-neem for now...might as well now that you bought it eh? unless its unopened..then return that ish!!!

hyroot - ancient forest isn't compost!!! i agree 100% that quality compost or vermicompost can help w/ insect supression (albeit passively compared to things like neem cake) but ancient forest (a.k.a. repackaged peat moss) doesn't confer any insect suppression benefit...at least that I can think of. do you think a topdress of premier peat moss would save a crop from thrips or mites? highly doubtful IMO. vermicompost on the other hand might have a fighting chance...especially if it's homemade and you've been running neem/karanja through the bins...


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## Mohican (Jun 9, 2013)

So the red mites are good ones?


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## dl290485 (Jun 9, 2013)

I'm in Australia Cann... so S&H is going to be a lot more for me. I'm going to buy the oil from neemoil.com.au for AU$32 including postage for 1 liter (33.8 oz). But no one sells Neem cake in Australia- literally no one! I contacted all the big sellers (two of whom both claim to be the biggest importer of neem products in Australia) and they said that logistically it costs too much and there is no demand. They couldn't even get it for me as a special order. I'll look into how much neemsource will sting me to ship cake to Australia, but I have a feeling it's going to cost way too much.


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## hyroot (Jun 10, 2013)

Mo yes red ones are good


Cann Regardless of your opinion both compost do kill off bugs. Again I've seen it first hand. I know it works I will continue to use it and tell people about it so blah blah. Blah.... I know there is peat in Alaskan forest. It says that on the bag. But there's compost in there too and plenty of bacteria. But probably more fungi dominant. My teas with that foams up tuff. Peat alone will not foam up. 

Even the most knowledgeable person can be wrong. No one knows everything except for me lol. (That's a joke. Not to be taken literal)

Dl I Googled neem in australia and googled hydro shops and found a few that have neem. Not many though. Its also rediculously expensive. Maybe ebay might work for you.


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## Cann (Jun 10, 2013)

i'm tellin ya...ancient forest is nothing but peat. plain and simple. ain't no "compost" in there...

MM has examined ancient forest vs. premier peat under a microscope...his conclusions: they are identical. I tend to trust MM. 

agreed that nobody is right all the time...but i'm tellin ya man.....buy some other "compost" besides ancient forest...you're wasting your time (and $$) with that stuff


DL - shit man...didn't know you were in aussie...gonna be a bit harder to find LOL. maybe talk to SS_OG (silver surfer OG) over on the seed depot...he is from tas and i know he has spent a lot of time sourcing ROLS goodies down in your neck of da woods. good luck to ya! ahimsa shipping will probably be out of the picture...


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## Cann (Jun 10, 2013)

Hopefully this old cootz posts helps get across what I am trying to say:

*"A couple of years ago Microbeman posted the results from comparing Premier Peat (from Premier Horticulture - the Pro-Mix company) against Alaska Magic (aka Alaska Humus, GO Ancient Forest, Denali Gold, Alaska Bull-Sh*t) here and he provided videos showing the various microbes and explains what you are looking at.

Recently MM completed another round of tests using Premier Peat (specifically) and the new video is here at YouTube.com for you to watch and learn."
*

I highly recommend you check out the link to MM's website, specifically the part about sphagnum peat...I almost c/p'ed everything here but it was a bit verbose so i'll let y'all seek out the information yourselves. i'll let everyone come to their own conclusions...


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## hyroot (Jun 10, 2013)

Have you read my whole posts. I haven't bought it in 2 years. I buy Eco scraps. But there is. If you know about gen hydro/organic law suits over the whole omri thing. When I did buy it it was $7 a 1/2 cu ft. I buy eco scraps for $5 a cu ft. Its made from veggies. I don't use any manure or guano. All those pathogens are horrible. After I saw my holmegirls uncle develop an allergy to guano after 30 years of growing. That kind of convinced me not use it.

Elaine ingham a microbiologist who is at the top in her field actually recommends ancient forest too

Mm first sentence says he is not an expert in microbiology and is a self trained scientist. Hmmm....... no actual education from any school. No degrees hmmmm......

There several oxford university and university of missourri studies too


I never went to med school. But I know quite a lot about health and medicine. So I guess I'll start calling myself Dr.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 10, 2013)

Anyone familiar with using old pots of super soil for no til?


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## Cann (Jun 10, 2013)

i've used old supersoil for outdoor veggie gardens. 

honestly i'd be scared to put something like that in a no-till. you'd be much better off starting from scratch IMO. 

bout time to build another raised bed outdoors for the summer anyway, eh? i could always use another raised bed....


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## Cann (Jun 10, 2013)

hyroot...i've said what I need to say...I know that you don't use it anymore but I was just trying to clarify for others who might be reading this thread. I don't want someone coming on here, reading that alaska forest is good compost, and then going out to buy that for their soil's humic content...if that happens we have failed with this thread. I'm fine if they read another thread on RIU and come away w/ that misconception..but not this one. this is a thread where we call out all the stoner science bullshit marketing hype for all to see...and alaska magic or whatever you want to call it is just that: marketing hype for gullible stoners. end rant


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 10, 2013)

Thanks @Cann


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## hyroot (Jun 10, 2013)

Mm is bullshit. That website I read 3 years ago. He has already been debunked by academics. So you shouldn't mention him either. You should never take the word of one man. Especially one who has not had any formal education and who has never been published. everything mm says is opinion. Read up on some university papers and real microbiolgists. Like elain ingham. There are several others too. But she is known as the Queen of compost and has a few phd's. So I would take her word over MM's. She recommends using ancient forest.

You notice. How through out MM's page he is plugging products. Just more marketing.

I stopped using ancient forest because it runs too hot.. Hmmm peat alone doesn't do that.


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## Cann (Jun 10, 2013)

read the very first post in this thread by invo. thanks to MM is one of the first things that is said. if you don't respect him, this thread is not for you. i'll leave it at that

i highly recommend you ask coot to tell you about elaine ingham. LOL. he might help shed some light onto the subject and give some perspective...

lets get this thread back on track:

here are two BOxNL5/haze plants sharing a #45 no-till smartpot. ridiculous flower development...they haven't even been flowering for 4 weeks! a bit of leaf burn from the heavy TM-7 application...the plant behind them to the right got hit pretty hard


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## jubiare (Jun 10, 2013)

PPlease everybody just remind yourself this is the ROLS thread with perhaps the finest info you'll ever find
What cann is trying to divulge are very solid and proved info that come from a very fine bunch of people that went behind not only the hydro bottles culture but the commercial inflated prices inferior products too

There's loads to learn from them before even attempting to correct them..

I haven't had a bug bothering me in a year and sourcing the real neem cake is well part of the deal

Also having an education or not about a specific field doesn't necessarily mean either way
Some assholes educated so called experts divulge manipulated info for business orientated purposes

Some uneducated great people do things for real passion and get to know things on a deeper level

There's no need to get crossed with cann just because is trying to hand you precious info 

And there's no need to come in here trying to divulge old fashioned half way good advices based on products that are half way good, when you can make, in most cases, your own bulletproof kickass amendment/remedy

Unfortunately there isn't many of those guys around here to extensively back up cann

Peace


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## Cann (Jun 10, 2013)

jubiare said:


> Also having an education or not about a specific field doesn't necessarily mean either way
> Some assholes educated so called experts divulge manipulated info for business orientated purposes
> 
> *Some uneducated great people do things for real passion and get to know things on a deeper level*


amen


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## headtreep (Jun 10, 2013)

New mix I'm working on. I provided some online sources incase you cant find this stuff locally. NO GUANOS, ALASKAN HUMUS, or HYDRO BS!! Simple and easy to source. You can see from Cann threads it gets the results we are looking for 

1 c.f. Premier Peat Bale ( sold compressed 3 c.f.) - $9.99 Lowes
1 c.f. Pumice - $11.99 Local Nursery
1 c.f. BioFlora Fish and Kelp Compost (certified organic) - $6.00 Local Nursery

Basalt flour- 4 cups or 2 lbs. per c.f. http://www.rockdustlocal.com/
Crab Meal - 1/2 cup or 1/4 lb. per c.f. http://www.kisorganics.com/products/...oil-amendments
Kelp Meal - 1/2 cup or 1/4 lb. per c.f. http://www.groworganic.com/algit-nor...eal-55-lb.html
Neem Meal - 1/2 cup or 1/4 lb. per c.f. http://www.neemresource.com/


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 10, 2013)

headtreep said:


> New mix I'm working on. I provided some online sources incase you cant find this stuff locally. NO GUANOS, ALASKAN HUMUS, or HYDRO BS!! Simple and easy to source. You can see from Cann threads it gets the results we are looking for
> 
> 1 Premier Peat Bale (3 c.f.) - $9.99 Lowes
> 1 c.f. Pumice - $11.99 Local Nursery
> ...



I'm by no means an expert here, but don't you want a higher percentage of aeration and compost in your mix? Something more along the lines of 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 compost ....... or even 50% peat, 25% aeration, 25% compost?


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## sullivan666 (Jun 10, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Mm is bullshit. That website I read 3 years ago. He has already been debunked by academics. So you shouldn't mention him either. You should never take the word of one man. Especially one who has not had any formal education and who has never been published. everything mm says is opinion. Read up on some university papers and real microbiolgists. Like elain ingham. There are several others too. But she is known as the Queen of compost and has a few phd's. So I would take her word over MM's. She recommends using ancient forest.
> 
> You notice. How through out MM's page he is plugging products. Just more marketing.
> 
> I stopped using ancient forest because it runs too hot.. Hmmm peat alone doesn't do that.


http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Living_Soil

Doesn't sound like bullshit to me...but if you doubt it, he posts all of his sources at the bottom of the article.


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## headtreep (Jun 10, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm by no means an expert here, but don't you want a higher percentage of aeration and compost in your mix? Something more along the lines of 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 compost ....... or even 50% peat, 25% aeration, 25% compost?


Yeah I need to it more clear that's its 1 cf but the peat I source comes in 3cf. Thanks for catching and fixing now.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 10, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Yeah I need to it more clear that's its 1 cf but the peat I source comes in 3cf. Thanks for catching and fixing now.


Ahh. Makes sense. I buy that same peat and amend it very similar to what you're doing. It's amazing how that bale expands when it's broken up and wet down. I had peat flying everywhere the first time I made my own batch of soil!


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## headtreep (Jun 10, 2013)

I take a 5 gal jug with aloe powder same measurement as foliar and water to get my peat wet.


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## hyroot (Jun 10, 2013)

sullivan666 said:


> http://www.microbeorganics.com/#Living_Soil
> 
> Doesn't sound like bullshit to me...but if you doubt it, he posts all of his sources at the bottom of the article.


no where does he mention go brand which on the bag says there is peat. he just says magic humus from washington in 2007. who knows what it really is or where he got it specifically. could be from some farm or topsoil place. when i used it in a tea. that was the only compost that left a white mychorizzae film on top of the soil.

the whole site is so he can sell his microscopes and brewers. and his bibliography is his books he read for his self education. not sources to do with his tests. in the video he says he doesn't know the proper terms.....

cann Im not trying to cross you its just i know for a fact he's full of shit. your plants look beautiful though..


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## GreenSanta (Jun 10, 2013)

hyroot, why do you say he is full of shit or where did you hear this? I mean maybe he is trying to sell is microbes and brewers but everybody is trying to sell something, as long as the information on his website is correct.


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 10, 2013)

http://www.earthworkshealth.com/organic-pest-control.php here is some info on diatomaceous earth food grade and its uses


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## jubiare (Jun 10, 2013)

This is from CT Guy on the product:
Anyway, I just want to say that the Alaska Humus is an okay product. Not great, I think any good EWC source would be superior and it's definitely not true humus. It's got peat remains in it, which I've verified with MM microscopically. There are multiple sources and I've primarily dealt with Alaska Organics because they are a lot cheaper than Jeff's company that's getting the Ancient Forest for GH. I will say that *quality has varied over the years*, but I can get 2,200 lbs for $400 FOB Seattle. I say make your own or if you can't then there are better options than bagged composts.


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## jubiare (Jun 10, 2013)

Hyroot,
The guy sells microscopes certainly not humus?


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## Cann (Jun 10, 2013)

hyroot said:


> no where does he mention go brand which on the bag says there is peat. he just says magic humus from washington in 2007. who knows what it really is or where he got it specifically. could be from some farm or topsoil place. when i used it in a tea. *that was the only compost that left a white mychorizzae film on top of the soil.*
> 
> the whole site is so he can sell his microscopes and brewers. and his bibliography is his books he read for his self education. not sources to do with his tests. in the video he says he doesn't know the proper terms.....
> 
> cann Im not trying to cross you its just i know for a fact he's full of shit. your plants look beautiful though..



the part I bolded shows how your understanding of the soil food web is still a bit shakey. Mycorrhizae do not make a white film on the top of the surface...they are hardly (if at all) visible to the naked eye, and they are attached to living roots...so unless you have living roots above the surface of your topsoil, you can't be seeing mycorrhizae...

i believe on the website it says "alaska magic" brand...AFAIK it is from the same plant that makes GO Ancient Forest and all the other "alaskan forest humus" products. not just topsoil from a farm store. 

agreed that his site is there in part to sell brewers..but the man has to make a living and there are plenty of folks who are super into compost teas (sincerely420 anyone??) who would gladly pay him for a vortex brewer or something equally ridiculous...

i enjoy the website (microbeorganics.com) for the information, but I am also not convinced that ACTs need to be applied more than once or twice per year (season..whatever you want to call it depending on if its indoors or out)....or if they need to be applied at all honestly. I agree that they are a faster way of going about things..but that doesn't necessarily equate to a better way. I highly respect MM but at the same time I will most likely never buy anything from him and would probably recommend the same to all my friends. that being said...the man knows his shit (even if he doesn't say the proper "terms" on his youtube videos..) and I think you should re-read his website and also read some more things about Elaine Ingham before you hate anymore. who cares if the man has a degree or not...i could give a shit. some of the smartest most successful (however you want to define that...not "financially" sucessful) people I know didn't even graduate high school. MM also has an account here btw so he could come on over and give you a lesson lol I might send him a quick message....

what do you mean by "full of shit"? are we talking bad science full of shit, or just the fact that he's trying to sell something you don't need. 

tried to end this last night....


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## GreenSanta (Jun 10, 2013)

I believe that ACTs are great to apply as often as possible as foliar spray on veggie garden (I say veggie garden because I dont foliar spray my cannabis plants as I grow 12/12 from seed and there is always buds in the room)

I agree that they are not necessary in a healthy soil but I like to use them as foliar spray outside to help the plants create a protective shield against the bugs, sort of speak. I also think it's the best way to fertilize the garden besides amending, not necessarily to replenish the population of microbes but to provide them with ''available'' nutrients. 

I am home full time for the summer and I plan on having some compost tea brewing at least once or twice a week, for indoor and outdoor use. A little goes a long way too, I apply small quantities often. Any thoughts?


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 11, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> I believe that ACTs are great to apply as often as possible as foliar spray on veggie garden (I say veggie garden because I dont foliar spray my cannabis plants as I grow 12/12 from seed and there is always buds in the room)
> 
> I agree that they are not necessary in a healthy soil but I like to use them as foliar spray outside to help the plants create a protective shield against the bugs, sort of speak. *I also think it's the best way to fertilize the garden besides amending*, not necessarily to replenish the population of microbes but to provide them with ''available'' nutrients.
> 
> I am home full time for the summer and I plan on having some compost tea brewing at least once or twice a week, for indoor and outdoor use. A little goes a long way too, I apply small quantities often. Any thoughts?


ACT's are a means of delivering (hopefully) aerobic, beneficial bacteria to your soil. The "nutrients" made available to your plant by using an ACT are nominal. A FPE would be better suited to supply the nutrients and minerals you are after imo.


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## jubiare (Jun 11, 2013)

Cann, 
do you know/notice any "quality" differences between DMT and SST? I don't mind the sprouting process especially if I know I am dealing with a superior solution. I suppose it's not easy to tell without proper tests.
But if coot says he observed same outcomings from the DiastaticMaltTea .. Maybe I should just go for it!
Edit: or headtreep or anyone have used both


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## headtreep (Jun 11, 2013)

I used to be a big fan of using ACT every chance I could get but I have learned it's not needed after having used blumats for several cycles. Only 1 ACT at the begging of the flower cycle and other than that it's been getting nothing but SST, aloe, humics/fulvics, coconut water, and most important that top dress of vermicompost. 

ACT is cool tool for new soils and I love it for seedlings personally but not necessary to produce results. 

*Vic's High Killer Queen x Space Queen*


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 11, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I used to be a big fan of using ACT every chance I could get but I have learned it's not needed after having used blumats for several cycles. Only 1 ACT at the begging of the flower cycle and other than that it's been getting nothing but SST, aloe, humics/fulvics, coconut water, and most important that top dress of vermicompost.
> 
> ACT is cool tool for new soils and I love it for seedlings personally but not necessary to produce results.
> 
> *Vic's High Killer Queen x Space Queen*


I agree. I have actually been wetting down my soil mixture with an ACT right after amending and then let it sit the 6-8 weeks before putting clones in it. I then only apply one to two more ACT's during veg and early flower.

Nice looking plants BTW!


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## headtreep (Jun 11, 2013)

Thanks st0wandgrow! See that to me is an acceptable use of ACT. Totally agree ^^


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## headtreep (Jun 11, 2013)

BTW the new SST 3.0 Diastatic malt aka Malted Barley Flour seems to be working just fine. This will be week 3 and its hard to say but I think it's doing more that my bubbled sprouts.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 11, 2013)

headtreep said:


> BTW the new SST 3.0 Diastatic malt aka Malted Barley Flour seems to be working just fine. This will be week 3 and its hard to say but I think it's doing more that my bubbled sprouts.


That's good to know headtreep. I've been reading a ton of stuff from the ROLS guys about the enzymes from the sprouted barley and stumbled upon the malted barley flower thingy the other day. That looks like it really simplifies the process. Is it as simple as just adding x amount of malted barley flour to x amount of water and then applying as a soil drench?

Can you elaborate a little on what you're doing?

Thanks!


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## headtreep (Jun 11, 2013)

http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-20-Ounce-Packages/dp/B000EDDS02/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370980161&sr=8-1&keywords=malted+barley+flour

*1 tsp Malted Barley flour (Diastatic Malt Powder) per gal of h2O*. Drench only. Simple stuff and you get a proper dose every time due to the nice convenient powder.


Edit: I do that only 1x per week.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 11, 2013)

Great info headtreep .... thanks for sharing!


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## headtreep (Jun 11, 2013)

My current program. 



*Soil Mix*

- 1c.f Premier Peat
- 1c.f. Pumice
- 1c.f Compost 
- ½ cup Crab Meal
- ½ cup Kelp Meal
- ½ cup Neem cake
- 4 cups Basalt

***2 inch top dress of Vermicompost*

*Foliar 1x per week*

Per gal of h2O
Week 1
- 1/4 tsp Aloe 200X
- 15 ml. Ful-Power
- 1 tsp. Protekt 

Week 2
IPMs like neem, peppermint etc

**Alternate weeks**
*
Soil Drenches 1x per week*

Per gal of h2O
1/4 tsp Aloe 200x 
1/4 coconut powder 
1 tsp malted barley powder
1 tsp. Protekt
30 ml Ful-Power


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## GreenSanta (Jun 11, 2013)

The soil drench is probably the only time of the week that you water? So they never get just plain water?


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## headtreep (Jun 11, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> The soil drench is probably the only time of the week that you water? So they never get just plain water?


I use tropf blumats. Blumats are great for soil.


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## headtreep (Jun 11, 2013)

Water only in blumats greensanta btw.


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 12, 2013)

Kandy Kush F2... 
*Grown outdoor using ROLS methods...thanks guys
*


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 12, 2013)

Do I ordered some food grade diatomecous earth tonight.. after got off work went out to veggie garden I have currently in pots till finish garden area, stomped on all earwigs I could find flicking them of plants and shaking them of squishing them... I came to my little marigold which was tipped over I picked it up shook it off and well over 50 !!! Earwigs fell off just that tiny marigold I have.. that's usually what I kill if not less everynight between all my plants and patio area! Hope the de gets Here soon cause these earwigs are driving me nuts! And eating the shit out of my eggplant, hop leaves and zucchini! Found couple suckers trying to get in the end of one my zuccinis as well that are growing. Starting to think we have a earwig issue around here and they gotta go!


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 12, 2013)

headtreep212 said:


> I use tropf blumats. Blumats are great for soil.


So how are you liking the blumats? And how do the tropf compare to other ones that are out there? Sounds good for giving the plants water when they need them. Would be good in a small outdoor veggie garden as well with rainbarrel res.

Maybe demo them if you could ?


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## headtreep (Jun 12, 2013)

I would never garden again without Tropf Blumats which are the original accept no knockoffs. Here is an example of an indoor.


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## headtreep (Jun 12, 2013)

Update on the SST 3.0

*AOC is recommending 1 to 2 TBL (tablespoons) 15-30ml of diastatic malt per gallon. 1 TBL is "uber-safe" but 2 TBL achieved "better results". HTH*

Seems we can go a little heavier on the diastatic malt aka Malted Barley Flour. Thanks *Kalyx!*


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## dl290485 (Jun 12, 2013)

What is the bluemat things?


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## headtreep (Jun 12, 2013)

Self watering drip lines.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 12, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Self watering drip lines.


Do you mean that the driplines know when to water or you have to turn them on and off obviously right?


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## headtreep (Jun 12, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> Do you mean that the driplines know when to water or you have to turn them on and off obviously right?


They have sensors in them and require no power or electric  They have been around awhile, in fact I was looking at them a few years ago when I was on a bottled nute coco program. They will cut your work in half.


edit: Also they keep the medium nice and moist with even saturation.


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## kushking42 (Jun 12, 2013)

those would make my life a lot easier. how many per 4x8 headtreep?


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## GreenSanta (Jun 12, 2013)

hooked up on a sink or you have a big reservoir in the grow room?


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## headtreep (Jun 12, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> hooked up on a sink or you have a big reservoir in the grow room?


I use 5 gal buckets in my tents. If they spill or were to overflow only 5 gal of water will flood. Beats the hell out of those hydro accidents


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## headtreep (Jun 12, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> those would make my life a lot easier. how many per 4x8 headtreep?


Instructions say 1 blumat per 5 gal of soil. I use 2 of them in my 10 gal but now I'm thinking 3 after discussing it with CC. He uses 3 in a 5gal haha. The maxis are longer for larger pots or beds. Two seems to barely work for #10 after upgrading from #7.


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## dl290485 (Jun 12, 2013)

So it's not electronically pumped from the 5gal bucket is it? You've maybe just got the bucket elevated higher than the pot and it's gravity fed with the bluemat regulating the flow?


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## headtreep (Jun 12, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> So it's not electronically pumped from the 5gal bucket is it? You've maybe just got the bucket elevated higher than the pot and it's gravity fed with the bluemat regulating the flow?


Correct two buckets. One is used as a stand. Stupid easy!


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## BrotherEsau (Jun 12, 2013)

man those blumats seem really sick but due to size restraints it would be logistically difficult.


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## NickNasty (Jun 13, 2013)

I have thought about getting them but for my flower room I would probably need 72 - 4 for each 15 gal and thats just flower... I just imagine it would be a mess of tubes on my floors.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 14, 2013)

headtreep said:


> BTW the new SST 3.0 Diastatic malt aka Malted Barley Flour seems to be working just fine. This will be week 3 and its hard to say but I think it's doing more that my bubbled sprouts.


Where did you pick that up at headtreep? I have checked every store around me that could possibly carry it, and I even went on the Bob's Red Mill website and it is out of stock there too.

You ROLS guys have created a nationwide shortage of it!


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## LaCasaVerde (Jun 14, 2013)

headtreep said:


> My current program.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you so much for posting this....
Do you do anything to treat your water (R.O., carbon filter, balance pH, etc) or just use it straight from the tap? My water has high mineral and salt content and I'm concerned about toxic accumulations especially with using bluemats and no flushing. Have you had any problems?


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 14, 2013)

LaCasaVerde said:


> Thank you so much for posting this....
> Do you do anything to treat your water (R.O., carbon filter, balance pH, etc) or just use it straight from the tap? My water has high mineral and salt content and I'm concerned about toxic accumulations especially with using bluemats and no flushing. Have you had any problems?


You should invest in an RO system, or at least some type of dechloranization unit.

Check with your city and see if you can get a water analysis. Chlorine can be bubbled out of your water in a fairly short period of time, but most cities are now using chloramine which does not dissipate as quickly and will most likely require some type of filtration like an RO unit. If you use plain tap water, you are essentially killing all of the little critters in the soil that are feeding the plant.


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## LaCasaVerde (Jun 14, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> You should invest in an RO system, or at least some type of dechloranization unit.
> 
> Check with your city and see if you can get a water analysis. Chlorine can be bubbled out of your water in a fairly short period of time, but most cities are now using chloramine which does not dissipate as quickly and will most likely require some type of filtration like an RO unit. If you use plain tap water, you are essentially killing all of the little critters in the soil that are feeding the plant.


Most definitely want to keep the microbes happy.

I live in a desert and hate the idea of wasting so much water with an RO system. I've also heard that RO can be too pure, lacking in cal-mag which can be a problem. Would a good carbon filter be sufficient?

I've had good results using plain tap water with (gasp) Miracle Grow and I re-use my potting soil. I'm pretty excited about trying ROLS methods.


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## NickNasty (Jun 14, 2013)

LaCasaVerde said:


> Most definitely want to keep the microbes happy.
> 
> I live in a desert and hate the idea of wasting so much water with an RO system. I've also heard that RO can be too pure, lacking in cal-mag which can be a problem. Would a good carbon filter be sufficient?
> 
> I've had good results using plain tap water with (gasp) Miracle Grow and I re-use my potting soil. I'm pretty excited about trying ROLS methods.


You can use humic acid or absorbic acid (Vitamin C) to neutralize clorine or chloramine in your water. You probably need only a tsp. per 5 gal to do it unless it is really strong.


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## NickNasty (Jun 14, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Where did you pick that up at headtreep? I have checked every store around me that could possibly carry it, and I even went on the Bob's Red Mill website and it is out of stock there too.
> 
> You ROLS guys have created a nationwide shortage of it!


http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz

http://www.amazon.com/Diastatic-Malt-Powder-1-lb/dp/B0001AVRRE


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## LaCasaVerde (Jun 14, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> You can use humic acid or absorbic acid (Vitamin C) to neutralize clorine or chloramine in your water. You probably need only a tsp. per 5 gal to do it unless it is really strong.


Thanks for the advice. Do you know of a good source to order humic acid from? I happen to have a lot of citric acid on hand. Would that work?


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## NickNasty (Jun 14, 2013)

I don't think citric acid will work but am not a 100% on that. 

Here are some places to get Humic Acid

http://www.amazon.com/TeraVita-SP-90-Humic-Soluble-Powder/dp/B0088NC7FC

http://www.kelp4less.com/shop/humic-acid/


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 14, 2013)

LaCasaVerde said:


> Most definitely want to keep the microbes happy.
> 
> I live in a desert and hate the idea of wasting so much water with an RO system. I've also heard that RO can be too pure, lacking in cal-mag which can be a problem. Would a good carbon filter be sufficient?
> 
> I've had good results using plain tap water with (gasp) Miracle Grow and I re-use my potting soil. I'm pretty excited about trying ROLS methods.


Another option is to buy a single filter counter top RO system that will at least give you a decent level of filtration. They can be purchased for around $100, and they will remove 93% of all chlorine/chloramine as opposed to the larger under the sink systems that you're referring to (wasting water) that remove 98% of chlorine/chloramine.

I purchased one for the same reason that you mentioned. I hated the thought of wasting 2-3 gallons of water for every gallon of purified water. The one I have doesn't waste a drop, and it only takes about 5 minutes to fill a 5 gallon bucket. I love it, and more importantly the plants seem to love it!

As to your concern over cal-mag, I will say this. If you're working with a properly amended soil with a good compost source, you shouldn't have deficiencies of any kind.


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## LaCasaVerde (Jun 14, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Another option is to buy a single filter counter top RO system that will at least give you a decent level of filtration. They can be purchased for around $100, and they will remove 93% of all chlorine/chloramine as opposed to the larger under the sink systems that you're referring to (wasting water) that remove 98% of chlorine/chloramine.
> 
> I purchased one for the same reason that you mentioned. I hated the thought of wasting 2-3 gallons of water for every gallon of purified water. The one I have doesn't waste a drop, and it only takes about 5 minutes to fill a 5 gallon bucket. I love it, and more importantly the plants seem to love it!
> 
> As to your concern over cal-mag, I will say this. If you're working with a properly amended soil with a good compost source, you shouldn't have deficiencies of any kind.


I'll look into this. Thanks!!


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## headtreep (Jun 16, 2013)

Living soil with a new clover mulch.


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## kushking42 (Jun 16, 2013)

i use a big boy water filter. two stage sediment and carbon for 5 gallons a minute. ive been thinking of adding an additional carbon stage though.


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## headtreep (Jun 17, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> i use a big boy water filter. two stage sediment and carbon for 5 gallons a minute. ive been thinking of adding an additional carbon stage though.


Damn bro lol thats Huge. Yeah I use a basic RO myself much smaller hehe.


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## kushking42 (Jun 17, 2013)

r.o is fancier, the big boy is for volume. i ditched the r.o a few years back. not necesary and not practical for my applications


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## headtreep (Jun 17, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> r.o is fancier, the big boy is for volume. i ditched the r.o a few years back. not necesary and not practical for my applications


Yeah I hear ya. I haven't had the need to switch my Hydro-Logic Stealth Ro 100 but I will when I expand to something more basic. 
[h=1][/h]


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## Mohican (Jun 17, 2013)

I want one of those big systems so my whole house is RO (except the toilets hehe)!

My current RO system has one cellulose filter two carbons then the membrane and another carbon, a UV light and then the tank.


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## kushking42 (Jun 17, 2013)

Headtreep

do you foliar and soil drench the barley, aloe and coconut with ful power once per week? 

2tbsp barley
1tbsp ful power
2tbsp aloe (200x equivalent)
1tbsp freeze dried coconut per 5 gallon

sound right?


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## headtreep (Jun 17, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> Headtreep
> 
> do you foliar and soil drench the barley, aloe and coconut with ful power once per week?
> 
> ...


Here is how I've been doing with the advice of CC.

*Soil Drenches 1x per week

Per gal of h2O
1/4 tsp Aloe 200x 
1/4 tsp coconut powder 
2 tbsp malted barley powder
1 tsp. Protekt
30 ml Ful-Power*

*Foliars 1x per week

Per gal of h2O
Week 1
- 1/4 tsp Aloe 200X
- 15 ml. Ful-Power
- 1 tsp. Protekt 

Week 2
IPMs like neem, peppermint etc

**Alternate weeks**

Note on the aloe from CC: ToTo equal 2 oz. per gallon when making 5 gallons of 'tea' you would add 1.5 grams which is 2 teaspoons (.75 gram each)
*


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## kushking42 (Jun 17, 2013)

thanks bro that will help me out a lot.


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## kushking42 (Jun 17, 2013)

neem separated from mint on the ipm?


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## headtreep (Jun 17, 2013)

****If you use fulpower with IPMs you may need to lower the dosage. I've done a little leaf burning myself. It's hard to accurate advice on the net cause some plants seem to be more sensitive than others. I start lower or in the middle and even dilute if I feel it's needed.


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## headtreep (Jun 17, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> neem separated from mint on the ipm?


I usually pick one. I feel that we want to alternate so any pests won't become resistant. Garlic may be a cheaper alternative for you since you have a very large farm. I'd check with CC on that. 

Garlic is what the organic farms use out here for IPMs in the desert for crops. Garlic and water haha.


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## headtreep (Jun 17, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> thanks bro that will help me out a lot.


Very welcome man. Feel free to cross reference with the crew but this has been working solid for me. I also will use that TM-7 twice a month instead of fulpower for drench so keep that in mind. I like all the trace stuff going on.


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 17, 2013)

I found out how to post on my phone . I have been working my way through the forums for a while. I started growing16 years ago that born a passion like no other, and been at it off and on ever since I currently have my plants in veg as I am moving. I have 
1 wos nl/sk
4 hso c dawg
4 GDP 3f 1m
3 rp ogk
2 rp pw
2 hso sd
1 pos bw
1 pos s ch
1 bad ass blue dream? Bag seed male
sativa #1 
2 afghan bag seed 
all organic can't wait to get the 600 going again. Does anyone know how to post pictures from a phone. Will be a couple weeks before I have my computer up and on the net.


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 17, 2013)

I also am looking at water purification. Been using rain water and had to switch to tap. And my pw #1 showed an iron deficiency. Checked water and had a ph over 9.


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## Shwagbag (Jun 18, 2013)

Nice thread subbed up.


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## jubiare (Jun 18, 2013)

Drd81

Meanwhile you look into purification of your water
Try bubbling your water for a day or two with a handful of worm castings/compost x gallon. It acts as a sort of purifier.

A Brita filtering jug will help a bit too!


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 18, 2013)

headtreep, do you order those bio ag products directly through their website or do you pick them up elsewhere?


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 18, 2013)

Jubiare I do have a bubbler in my res. I use tea every other watering. I just didn't stay on top of things like I should have. I phed watered and fertilized today Checked run of and had 6.5. I started working on fixing it right away. I flushed them sat when it showed. All I have is one top on the pw that showed and a couple lower fans on some of the other ones showing cal def spots. The moving has me running back and forth right now.


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 18, 2013)

I don't think having them in 1gal pots running low on the fert. was helping. They are 11 to 14 in tall and have 8 to 10 tops 2 ogs have 6 or so. Been keeping them small as I can.


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## headtreep (Jun 18, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> headtreep, do you order those bio ag products directly through their website or do you pick them up elsewhere?


Elsewhere is cheaper typically.


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## headtreep (Jun 18, 2013)

Dr.D81 said:


> Jubiare I do have a bubbler in my res. I use tea every other watering. I just didn't stay on top of things like I should have. I phed watered and fertilized today Checked run of and had 6.5. I started working on fixing it right away. I flushed them sat when it showed. All I have is one top on the pw that showed and a couple lower fans on some of the other ones showing cal def spots. The moving has me running back and forth right now.


Hey Dr.D81 this an organic purist thread. We don't use ferts or ph or water. Please keep that off these threads. Thanks in advance.


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 18, 2013)

I don't mean chemical fertilizers I don't use them. I only use fish emulation and super thrive out of a bottle. I came across this site reading about willow water cloning I have been following for a while. I also keep up with canns grow. I would not have posted I was not of like mind. I ph'd with cider vinegar


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## headtreep (Jun 18, 2013)

Dr.D81 said:


> I don't mean chemical fertilizers I don't use them. I only use fish emulation and super thrive out of a bottle. I came across this site reading about willow water cloning I have been following for a while. I also keep up with canns grow. I would not have posted I was not of like mind. I ph'd with cider vinegar


Superthrive is not organic and again we don't PH our water in living organics.


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 18, 2013)

I guess I should tell you guys what I work with. When not moving that is. I use amended recycled organic living soil. All my plants are from seed, and the only exceptions are my Shreveport #2&3, and sat#1. They are rooted cuts using willow water, and fresh aloe. I had made a lot of cuts of every thing so the few people I trust could have them. I veg&clone under a 1000 watts of cfl in a 29inX60inX97in cab. It has 3 compartments and is devided at 48in.
I flower in a 6ftX6ftX8ft room. I run a 600 watt hps vertical bear bulb. While I move i will be adding a 6000 btu ac to the area, so I can add a 400 or 600 watt mh and figure out how to move them. I have a horseshoe shelf system that is 11in wide. Leaves me 50in in the clear. The door side is no till trees. Also will begin construction on mother and seeding rooms and my home made central charcoal filter as it will be on top of the mother room. I make my own ecw and can start composting again soon. I also have a small organic veggie garden as I knew I would be moving. I have chickens, and will have rabbits when I get settled.


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 18, 2013)

Not even if its crazy bad, just curious I love to learn. Never have before but needed to do something. I put buckets out to catch rain again and have 40 gal now. My worms went in my 55 gal I was using


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 18, 2013)

I used chemical fertilizers for ten years, and quit for six. I went organic in Feb when I started back. A lot of papers, articles, and forums to read. I'm working on it. Thought the st was thanks.


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## hyroot (Jun 19, 2013)

I cheated... I had to till a little to a few plants, the compost / ewc on top almost solidified. No water was getting through. It just sat stagnant on top for the longest time. Oh oh oh for the longest time. lol

I just watered with a compost tea though


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## GreenSanta (Jun 19, 2013)

i had this problem 2years ago with store bought worm casting ... I have never bothered top dressing with straight castings ever since ...does this happen with fresh home made castings?


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## headtreep (Jun 19, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> i had this problem 2years ago with store bought worm casting ... I have never bothered top dressing with straight castings ever since ...does this happen with fresh home made castings?


I have never had that happen even if I let me pots dry. Keep your medium moist and use quality castings or vermicompost. You shouldn't have any issues.


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## kushking42 (Jun 19, 2013)

this reminds me of roots castings that i used to buy. it comes in a big block wrapped in plastic. completely compressed looks like it was never sifted. before i had a clue what i was doing i would spread this on top of my pots. it made watering almost impossible


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## Cann (Jun 19, 2013)

my homemade EWC has pumice in it (I put pumice in the bins for aeration)..i tend to screen my castings through a large enough piece of mesh that some pumice makes it through (and some baby worms + cocoons). when applied to the surface of a pot, the EWC creates a perfect layer w/ good drainage...prime for sowing cover crops  

i've had roots castings and a few other brands lock up on me and turn into hardpan..its nice to have some aeration in the mix. 


got some catching up to do around here....been on vacation for the last 8 days. 


Dr.D - you seem to be on the right path...stick around here and we will help you phase out the superthrive, pHing, and flushing (lol). 

you have rabbits, worms, recycled soil, and aloe? already sounds like a lot of potential to me . have you read this thread from the start?


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## headtreep (Jun 19, 2013)

Thanks Cann and glad to have you back. 

@*Dr.D81 *Not trying to scare you off, just want you to understand where we are at with this thread. Please do participate but let's stick to the Living Organic subject matter which imo is pretty "purist". We will do our best to assist you with questions but please read through the thread and remember ratios of amdements/products may change from time time as new information is discovered. Please take our advice but also do your own research and collaborate with the group.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jun 19, 2013)

Hey guys hope everyone is enjoying their summer  anyways I had a few questions. I have an Ecocomposter that was given to me for a test run of compost. I was wondering if my starting pile is good enough for the summer. I am planning on making pure vegan compost. Anyways here are my ingredients. FYI the ecocomposter is 45 gallons.

15 gallons food waste
15 gallons coco coir or peat (moisture buffer for my dry desert climate)
15 gallons yard waste/cannabis leaves, herbs (1lb nettle, 1lb alfalfa, 1lb chamomile,1lb comfrey, 1lb dandelion, 1lb clover, 1lb yarrow, 1lb borage)

rock dusts like greensand, limestone, gypsum, glacial rock dust, rock phosphate, bentonite clay, kelp meal (a cup or 2 of each)

I had a little help preparing this from Rising Moon so much thanks on your behalf.  I will post pictures as soon as I get everything set, it's hard to do work in 110+ degrees :/

I had a question for everyone though, how much rock dusts should I be adding if I can constantly turn my pile? Thanks for any advice and keep it organic!


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 19, 2013)

Cann yes and yours just having to adapt techniques for the time. I didn't want my plants to suffer because my area has terrible water. Back to rain water now


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## headtreep (Jun 19, 2013)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Hey guys hope everyone is enjoying their summer  anyways I had a few questions. I have an Ecocomposter that was given to me for a test run of compost. I was wondering if my starting pile is good enough for the summer. I am planning on making pure vegan compost. Anyways here are my ingredients. FYI the ecocomposter is 45 gallons.
> 
> 15 gallons food waste
> 15 gallons coco coir or peat (moisture buffer for my dry desert climate)
> ...


Hey bird that's awesome! Those Ecocomposter's should retain the moisture needed for a solid compost in that heat but keep an eye on it. You don't want it drying out. That plant matter (green yard waste) will activate or heat up the pile. All those powdered amendments, I would just use even amounts personally at around 1 cup of each or so for that amount (45 gal). I use a half cup for my soil per cf. 

Worms go crazy over compost so don't forget that. It makes excellent convenient worm food. I'm looking into some heat friendly composting myself for the garage. 

PS I plan to plant a bunch of comfrey and aloe after summer.


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## headtreep (Jun 19, 2013)

If you ever want to set up the perfect worm bin, use a big ass fabric pot like a 45 gal smart pot and you will have you own little farm. Beats those dumb worm towers I have.


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## Dr.D81 (Jun 19, 2013)

Big smart pot I like that


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 19, 2013)

Bird Gymnastics said:


> Hey guys hope everyone is enjoying their summer  anyways I had a few questions. I have an Ecocomposter that was given to me for a test run of compost. I was wondering if my starting pile is good enough for the summer. I am planning on making pure vegan compost. Anyways here are my ingredients. FYI the ecocomposter is 45 gallons.
> 
> 15 gallons food waste
> 15 gallons coco coir or peat (moisture buffer for my dry desert climate)
> ...


I started one earlier this spring. From the research I've done, you want to have at least equal portions of brown matter (sticks, leaves, sawdust, cardboard, etc) to the green matter that you add. Not sure what your breakdown is, but might be something to consider.

Best of luck!


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jun 20, 2013)

Thannk you everyone for the advice. I had a few good pointers from a fellow ROLS poster  I just wasn't 100% sure on how much rock dust should be efficient enough for this type of compost bin. I am excited to see how it will work and really appreciate all the advice. I need to check out your worm bin one day over some meds  

I am also going to add some worms once the bin cools down some. Don't want to fry those little guys  As far as some aloe and comfrey, I will be planting plenty of herbs and others goodies this fall to get my compost even better. If anyone needs some fresh foliage for their compost I will have plenty  take care all and thanks again I will keep you all updated.

BG


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## snowboarder396 (Jun 20, 2013)

headtreep said:


> If you ever want to set up the perfect worm bin, use a big ass fabric pot like a 45 gal smart pot and you will have you own little farm. Beats those dumb worm towers I have.


How do you collect worm casting since you can't like the towers or do u just let it sit for long time and turn to vermicompost and move the worms over to another one when it's rich enough with castings ?


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## kushking42 (Jun 20, 2013)

*Headtreep


*have you tried making the kelp paste and adding it to your drenches? and what about any other botanical teas? are you using nettles or comfrey etc?


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## headtreep (Jun 20, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> *Headtreep
> 
> 
> *have you tried making the kelp paste and adding it to your drenches? and what about any other botanical teas? are you using nettles or comfrey etc?


Haven't made a kelp paste but I've bubbled most herbs mentioned including horsetail, dandelion, etc It's not practical unless you grow or find your own so until I do so I'm sticking with what I get at the feed store. Alfalfa, kelp, molasses (ACT). Then of course my ful-power, coconut, and aloe deal. Those herbs a great and have served my plants well so if you can get them GO for it! Packed fulled of nutes and hormones look them up.


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## kushking42 (Jun 20, 2013)

ya i was thinking application frequency. how often are you drenching with kelp?


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## GreenSanta (Jun 20, 2013)

humic acid every watering? how about sprinkling it on top every now and then? (I have powdered humic acid)

On a different topic, lets talk bacteria/fungi for a few posts shall we?

I have read that cannabis plants do better in a bacteria dominated medium, however, recently I have also read that while in flowering, cannabis prefers a fungi dominated medium, is this true?

If so, it would be better to shred the mulch while plants are vegging to encourage bacteria and we should not shred the mulch while in budding to encourage fungi activity... that if the above statement was true, otherwise, I guess it would be best to always shred the mulch to encourage bacteria?

So what's up! THANKS


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## headtreep (Jun 20, 2013)

Been going every other week with 1/4 cup kelp and 1/2 cup alfalfa with 1 tsp of TM-7 bubble 5 gal bucket for 24 hours.


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## kushking42 (Jun 20, 2013)

green santa:

mix up your fulvic separate from normal irrigation an just dump a couple cups on each plant. 1/4 tsp of ful humix is what i use. toss in potassium silicate and aloe. every other week add kelp like headtreep mentioned.

*
edit

*ful humix is applied once per week and ful power once per week foliar


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## Mohican (Jun 20, 2013)

I haven't noticed any carb sources in these recipes. Is the coconut water the carb source?


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## jaydub13 (Jun 20, 2013)

I had good results from my brown rice syrup experiment.... 2tbs per gallon at day 25, 35, 40 and 45.


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## headtreep (Jun 20, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I haven't noticed any carb sources in these recipes. Is the coconut water the carb source?


Coconut water does have sugars in that regard with mag and hormones etc Look it up it's very interesting when you read the scholar info. Only time I use sugar is in an ACT in my OLS/No Till.


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## Mohican (Jun 20, 2013)

Do you use molasses or sucanat or...


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## headtreep (Jun 20, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Do you use molasses or sucanat or...


It don't matter. Molasses is cheap in bulk from feed stores.


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## headtreep (Jun 20, 2013)

The Chinese farmers use brown sugar. It's pretty much all the same.


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## kushking42 (Jun 20, 2013)

*Headtreep*

have you actually seen kelp @ the feed stores?


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## headtreep (Jun 20, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> *Headtreep*
> 
> have you actually seen kelp @ the feed stores?


Special order #50 kelp meal for 81.00 plus tax. Ace might even be able to order it. You can get alfalfa at some Ace hardware and molasses as well. I guess it depends on the demand in your area. You should have a lot more access to stuff than myself.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 20, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> humic acid every watering? how about sprinkling it on top every now and then? (I have powdered humic acid)
> 
> On a different topic, lets talk bacteria/fungi for a few posts shall we?
> 
> ...


nobody can answer any of the mulching questions!?


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## kushking42 (Jun 20, 2013)

*Headtreep*

my price from down to earth is 61.00. i wanted to know specifically about feed stores. thanks though


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## headtreep (Jun 21, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> nobody can answer any of the mulching questions!?


I use humic acids in a solution for better penetration imo. You could mix in direct or top feed however it seems most people in general prefer a drench or foliar. Just be careful with TM7 especially. 

The whole bacteria fungi thing I don't pay attention to. I let nature take it's course and stick with my regiment. You need both and with cannabis being an annual I would suspect it wanting a more bacteria dom soil but again I don't do anything special to determine this.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 21, 2013)

ok thx... basically i just finished teaming with microbes and since u guys are mulching i thought i would help u remember what the book says ...

anyway, I will be shredding my mulch until I can find accurate information whether a flowering plant likes bac. or fun. better.


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## hyroot (Jun 21, 2013)

I stopped doing the mulching. I think it produced too much nitrogen. I had a shitty yield. Quality is great. I think by that I had too much n and not enough p. Too much n can make flowering time lagg and make yield suffer. Nutrient wise that was the only thing I did different. My nl x og is still going. Those ones I was able to.correct everything.


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## headtreep (Jun 21, 2013)

Going back to the top dressing subject. I learned from Coots that you should cover you top dressings with castings or compost to activate the microbes to process the material. Makes a lot of sense now. Keep that top layer of soil always moist as well otherwise the life goes dormant basically.


----------



## hyroot (Jun 21, 2013)

^^^^ I've always done that. Even before doing rols


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## kushking42 (Jun 21, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Here is how I've been doing with the advice of CC.
> 
> *Soil Drenches 1x per week
> 
> ...


so you are not drenching with humic acid at all? been using ful humix for that. i never use the ful power in my drenches because of cost. maybe i should. i think im kind of confused on this one. do u have that post from cc where he says exactly what two teas he uses. i have been diggin for hours and i cant find it.


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## Bird Gymnastics (Jun 21, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I haven't noticed any carb sources in these recipes. Is the coconut water the carb source?


I personally use sugar cane as my carb source. Something I picked up while farming in Hawaii


----------



## GreenSanta (Jun 21, 2013)

u guys ever get syrup dripping off ur buds? does it mean high brix? it happened on my outdoor plant last year and again on a super frosty plant just now...my buddy was looking at buds and he was like wtf did u spill sugar on here!!? lol I swear it was from the plant!!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 21, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> u guys ever get syrup dripping off ur buds? does it mean high brix? it happened on my outdoor plant last year and again on a super frosty plant just now...my buddy was looking at buds and he was like wtf did u spill sugar on here!!? lol I swear it was from the plant!!


On the bud? Never seen that before.

You will get some "sap" that will form when a leaf comes off.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 21, 2013)

that's what it was then!!


----------



## NickNasty (Jun 21, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> u guys ever get syrup dripping off ur buds? does it mean high brix? it happened on my outdoor plant last year and again on a super frosty plant just now...my buddy was looking at buds and he was like wtf did u spill sugar on here!!? lol I swear it was from the plant!!


The higher your brix the thicker your "sap" water from your plants will be since brix just measures the amount of dissolved solids in the plant and most of that is minerals and sugar.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 21, 2013)

The sap was Thick.  My cross Chemo (Jordan) X SpaceBomb


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## Cann (Jun 22, 2013)

now thats what a finished plant should look like!!! 

nice colors....damn...


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## GreenSanta (Jun 24, 2013)

I see a lot of you guys still spend quite a bit of money ... for me part of going ROLS is also to try to source everything locally and for free lol. Is there any of you out there that are basically not spending a penny on their grow?

I want to use forest stuff to make another compost pile in my yard but I am not sure where to start... I guess anything can be used, maybe I should start by asking what not to use!?

I dont know a lot about compost I hear you are supposed to mix in brown and green matter ,... it will be easy to find a lot of green matter in the bush, but what can I use for brown? and I dont understand how a compost pile of 100% green matter would be wrong? too rich in nitrogen?


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## hyroot (Jun 24, 2013)

Im not doing the tm and all the bottle stuff. Just bought some malted barley flour. 4 20 oz. Bags for $9.95 on amazon. Picked up some more shrimp meal and neem for $10 each and that should last me a few months. I pay $5 for compost once a month. The only pricey thing I bought was ewc $28 for 1 cu ft. I have 1/4 of a 15 gal tub is vermicompost. At this rate probably another 2 months til its all vermicompost.

Im making my own aloe powder now. My brother let me use his dehydrator.

Im just top dressing now. Ima have to make a new soil mix in about 5 weeks.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 24, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> I see a lot of you guys still spend quite a bit of money ... for me part of going ROLS is also to try to source everything locally and for free lol. Is there any of you out there that are basically not spending a penny on their grow?
> 
> I want to use forest stuff to make another compost pile in my yard but I am not sure where to start... I guess anything can be used, maybe I should start by asking what not to use!?
> 
> *I dont know a lot about compost I hear you are supposed to mix in brown and green matter ,... it will be easy to find a lot of green matter in the bush, but what can I use for brown? and I dont understand how a compost pile of 100% green matter would be wrong? too rich in nitrogen?*


Sort of. The organisms that break down the organic matter in a compost pile rely on carbon sources (brown matter) for energy. Adding an appropriate percentage of brown matter helps accelerate the thermophilic composting process.

You can use leaves, small twigs/branches, sawdust from non treated wood, cardboard, etc. The more you break up/shred the inputs, the quicker it will be available as a food source to your beneficial critters in the pile.


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## Cann (Jun 24, 2013)

as far as the whole ROLS cost thing goes.....


So far this month I have spent $12 on diastatic malt powder......thats it. 

the last few months the only things I have purchased are aloe powder ($20), Agsil 16H powder ($30), and a gallon of Ful-Power ($35)

less than $100 this cycle.....

as far as free things go....homemade EWC, comfrey and horsetail from my yard, crab shell from alaskan king crab (bartered w/ a fisherman ), rock dust from local quarries...and tons of free biomass everywhere for my compost pile/wormbin. there are tons of goodies out there if you look. in theory one could build their own soil from scratch for extremely cheap (the cost of neem meal). 


if I was trying to build a soil mix from scavenged materials here is what I would do:

1/3 homemade compost or EWC (collect biomass and such from local areas to compost...a few months later you have quality compost...even better if you throw amendments into the compost (rock dust, kelp, crab, etc.)
1/3 leaf mold (collect leaves from peoples lawns and parks...let sit for a few months, tada.)
1/3 pumice, lava rock, rice hulls, or some sort of aeration material (chances are you can find one of these things for free at a local park...sometimes railroads are lined w/ lava rock...if not, rice hulls are about $10 for 6 cuft, pumice is $8 for 50lbs....pretty damn cheap IMO)

there is your base soil....dirt cheap 

per cuft:

4 cups rock dust mix (quarry fines, fine screened clay from local topsoil, oyster shell powder (mortar and pestle and oyster shells...if you have the time for that...))
1/2 cup kelp meal (take a trip to the beach and scrounge up some brown seaweed)
1/2 cup crab meal (have a tasty crab dinner...or if you're trying to be super cheap go to the beach and look for crab or lobster shell remains...you could also go to a place like red lobster and ask them for their shells hehe...i'm sure theyd be happy to oblige..although those might not be the highest quality shells...)
1/2 cup neem meal (this is probably the only one you can't find locally.....unless you live in india...)


if you don't consider the amount of labor that would go into this, the price would be about $15 for lots of soil...as much as you could make with 5lbs. of neem seed meal...over 10cuft easily...

or you could go out and buy compost, EWC, peat, pumice, kelp, crab, neem, rock dust, etc.....definitely expensive at first...but either way by the third cycle it is virtually free to maintain.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 24, 2013)

yeah I dont mind the initial cost, ... basically I was curious to know how many of us were doing ROLS without spending money. I have a lot of SuperSoil right now, and I still have a lot of amendments as well as 2 x 3.8cu.ft. of fresh promix. My goal is to go for more than a year without spending any money. I encourage you to ask me how this goal of mine is going 6 months from now  

Basically the only things that I will have to spend money on are power and ladybugs/nematodes. And if all goes well with the LEDs, the only other expense 18 months from now will be new air filters.

Why is NEEM so important to you Cann? It has always been part of my mix but you make it sound like you would never attempt growing without it !?


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## headtreep (Jun 24, 2013)

NEEM http://www.clfs.umd.edu/grad/mlfsc/Neem, Pesticide and Medicinal Application.pdf


To keep it short, it's a full spectrum Azamax (bottled product) that's a powerful pesticide, fungicide, and overall slow N release. Very important imo. Beats the shit out of any bottle. Cake/meal and oil ftw!


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## GreenSanta (Jun 24, 2013)

so to have a little bit in the soil doesnt bother the beneficial fungi?


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## headtreep (Jun 24, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> so to have a little bit in the soil doesnt bother the beneficial fungi?


Heck no. Doesn't hurt a thing. Worms love it and so do beneficial bugs. I still have my soil mites!


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## hyroot (Jun 24, 2013)

neem has a little phos, potassium, magnesium, calcium, magnanese, sulfur, zinc and iron as well as nitrogen. but I think it has more n than anything else


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## GreenSanta (Jun 24, 2013)

I think the neem I have is 4-4-4


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## dl290485 (Jun 25, 2013)

Hey i'm looking to see what I can get in the way of 'rock dust'. Some guy on a facebook local gardening page says he has some but doesn't know what it is. All he could tell me is that it has a mineral reading:
" it has calcium 5%, Phosphorus .08%, Sulphur .04%, Potassium 3%, Magnesium 2.5%, Silicon 25%, Iron 5.5% and it contains a biological stimulant for worms and microbe activity."
Is that at all like what i'm looking for? Otherwise what rocks specifically should I ask for at a quarry- and what does each rock do? (in case I can't get it and need to substitute).

Also can someone help me clarify the difference between leaf mold and compost?
Sorry if that's a stupid question. 

One more question, where should i look to find pumice stone? (to buy it.. no the train yard..)
A quarry? Or is this like a landscaping product?

yeah i'm clueless


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## Mohican (Jun 25, 2013)

Orange County Farm Supply has pumice.


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## dl290485 (Jun 25, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Orange County Farm Supply has pumice.


...honestly what made you so sure that out of all the places man has inhabited on earth that I would be in Orange County?

I'm not even on that side of the earth.

I'm not asking for a particular store like "wall mart" but a type like "quarry" or "landscaping supplies" etc. I'm assuming its sold for uses other than gardening and haven't seen it in any gardening stores


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## NickNasty (Jun 25, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> Hey i'm looking to see what I can get in the way of 'rock dust'. Some guy on a facebook local gardening page says he has some but doesn't know what it is. All he could tell me is that it has a mineral reading:
> " it has calcium 5%, Phosphorus .08%, Sulphur .04%, Potassium 3%, Magnesium 2.5%, Silicon 25%, Iron 5.5% and it contains a biological stimulant for worms and microbe activity."
> Is that at all like what i'm looking for? Otherwise what rocks specifically should I ask for at a quarry- and what does each rock do? (in case I can't get it and need to substitute).
> 
> ...


So I don't know where you are or what kind of rock dust the facebook guy has and I am not a rock dust expert at all but I can tell you what I know and it may help you a bit. So with rock dusts in general you want to find dust with a broad spectrum of trace minerals there are a couple types you can usually find in grow stores or special order like Azomite and Glacial Rock Dust. Now these are fairly expensive compared to rock dust you will get at a quarry but they are already analyzed are very broad spectrum and can be gotten at a bunch of different stores or shipped anywhere and average at about a 1-1.50$ lb shipped. I would say for most growers this is a good option because they don't need a lot. If you do need a lot then going to a quarry may be a better option. I know Basalt is pretty broad spectrum and granite has high potassium. If I were going to a quarry I would ask them for a very fine material you can add to your soil as a source of plant mineral nutrients and if they don't know look to see if they have any river and seashore gravel dust as it will probably be from a bunch of different types of rocks and then more likely to be broad spectrum. BTW they will probably not call it dust but something else but it should be super fine like flour.
Here is a good place to get Azomite if you need it shipped it's like 45$ for 35lbs shipped.
http://www.rootnaturally.com/store/10-azomite-rock-dust use promo code growingyourgreens for 10% off to make it 40.50$ shipped

Now to Leaf Mold vs Compost: Leaf mold is leaves that have started breaking down but have not finished usually the leaves will almost be black in color sometimes you can actually see strings of mold growing on them. Usually you will find these in the forest or under some trees blown up against a neighbors fence who doesn't rake their yard. It has fairly good aeration adds good bacteria and fungus and is lightweight among other things. This can be added to your soil, compost or worm bin and is a nice addition to all. Compost is usually more then just composted leaves and comes from a variety plants and is more nutrient diverse. It is also usually better the more diverse it is which is one of the reasons it is usually better to make your own. 

As far as pumice goes I haven't yet been able to find it in my location but places I would look are landscaping suppliers, nurseries, maybe a quarry... It is basically just a type of lava rock thou so don't get too hung up on it there are many other types of stone - lava and others you can substitute in its place. I use lava sand and rice hulls now but most of my soil still has plenty of perlite in it which I am trying to phase out but I will not go and strain it out because it is not really hurting anything it's just not as good as other products. 

Anyway hopes this helps you and others!


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## Shwagbag (Jun 25, 2013)

For all things organic, check out kelp4less on ebay. Great vendor with a wide selection of products. I've bought a lot of stuff from them over the years to use in my super soil and recycling efforts.


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## jubiare (Jun 25, 2013)

Its not so about the npk of things in reality.. That part is pumped up by the masses flaw from the bottle industries

I am getting to realise this lately


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## headtreep (Jun 25, 2013)

jubiare said:


> Its not so about the npk of things in reality.. That part is pumped up by the masses flaw from the bottle industries
> 
> I am getting to realise this lately


Are you seeing the light?


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 25, 2013)

Farm supply stores carry pumice.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 25, 2013)

Headtreep, I noticed from looking at your pictures that you are doing ROLS in small containers? Anyway, recently I thought of a way to do ROLS for small containers! 

So I have 2 ROLS small containers going atm. One reason why this might work better for some people ( the small containers...) is not only for small space but for people who, like me, grow multiple strains all the time, it's way better when you can move your plants around. 

Anyway, what I have done with the 2 ROLS small containers is simple. I harvest a plant grown in my own SS, instead of replanting and top dressing, I flip the container upside down (a bit harder with smart pots but I did it!) and empty the container very gently, making sure not to disturb what was in the container ... if you know what i mean ... then I prune some of the roots that were there.

After I simply put 1/4 to 1/3 fresh supersoil (eventually will be using compost) at the bottom of the container and I put the soil that was in there in the first place right on top. This way the soil is still very much alive, the upper layer is very mild in nutrient but rich in microbes, and I believe it will help grow healthier plants.

What do you guys think?


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## dl290485 (Jun 26, 2013)

I was at the big hardware/garden store looking for a perlite replacement and although they didnt have rice hulls or pumice stone i did find something called Scoria... So does any know about it? I've done some googling but haven't really found much in the way of good info. 
Is it going to be good as 1/3 of my soil as aeration and drainage?
Also i'll attach a photo of what it looks like because I need to know if the rock size is too large or not.

The photo has a tape measure using cm.. but since you use inches or what ever in the US i've put a regular sized marball in the photo for perspective.


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## hyroot (Jun 26, 2013)

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scoria

http://geology.com/rocks/scoria.shtml


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## dl290485 (Jun 26, 2013)

Those pages don't have any info on how it's used in a horticultural context.

So far I only know that it's not as porous as pumice stone and that it has some water retention properties- but I have no idea what that is like in comparison with perlite. For all I know perlite is wetter.
I've just realised it's common name is 'lava rock' and i'm now looking into google results for that. 

I need to know the following: 1. Is it going to provide enough aeration when used in a mix of 1/3 coco coir, 1/3 EWC, 1/3 scoria? 2. Are the pieces too large?


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## hyroot (Jun 26, 2013)

It's not really used in gardening. Pumice is less dense then water and scoria is denser than water because it has larger gas bubbles inside the rock than pumice. It's mainly used for filling pot holes and used to dump on muddy or icy roads to gain traction for tractor trailers and diggers and excavators etc.....


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## dl290485 (Jun 26, 2013)

Not usually used is not the same as not able to be used. I mean around here rice hulls and pumice aren't used for gardening either.

One the bag it does say it can be used for hydroponics- in place of expanded clay balls i'm supposing.

I found 1 website so far with info about it being used in the garden http://jetta17.hubpages.com/hub/Lava-Rocks-Soils-Best-Organic-Admendment

"Incorporating lava rocks into your garden's soil is easy. When mixing soil components add enough lava rock to make up 20-25% of the total soil mix. Lava rock comes in various sizes but the best size for the garden is marble-sized rocks. Perlite is being replaced in garden soils by lava rock because of its added benefits. Layers of lava rock at the bottom of containers are recommended to increase soil drainage"

It also says there that it won't break down straight away but will gradually over time and will release minerals in the process. So I guess i've found the answer to my own question sort of. 
I think I will press ahead with it and hope it works out well.


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## hyroot (Jun 26, 2013)

Farmers all over the world use pumice and rice hulls.. Since its less dence and has more pores it aerates more.

Pumice and scoria are both lava rock. Just form differently

Good luck.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 26, 2013)

dl290485 said:


> Those pages don't have any info on how it's used in a horticultural context.
> 
> So far I only know that it's not as porous as pumice stone and that it has some water retention properties- but I have no idea what that is like in comparison with perlite. For all I know perlite is wetter.
> I've just realised it's common name is 'lava rock' and i'm now looking into google results for that.
> ...


It sure looks a lot like red lava rock. If it is in fact red lava rock, then you're fine. I'm using some myself right now in addition to perlite for aeration. I picked up a 1 cf bag of it at a garden center, and I took a hammer to it and crushed it in to smaller pieces. You want to aim for 1 inch pieces and smaller. The dust that's created can also be added to your mix as it will contain some trace minerals that will beneficial (particularly if you re-use your soil).

You're good to go imo.


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## headtreep (Jun 26, 2013)

This should eliminate any questions.....

*Cootz schedules for teas and application rates:

I run two 'teas' every week in both veg and flower rooms as follows

Tea #1

Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0
BioAg Ful-Power

Tea #2

Aloe Vera
Coconut Water - on this one you can use 1/4 cup for good results
BioAg TM-7

When you put them into flower, top dress with up to 2" of vermicompost.

That's it.

CC

I follow their suggested application rates and this is especially important on the Ful-Power. Hi-dosing will (not can) result in some horrific expressions that no amount of 'flushing' or 'nute deprivation' can fix or resolve.

Ful-Power - 1 oz. per gallon of water. 1x per week is more than adequate.

TM-7 - 1 gram which is 1/4 teaspoon per gallon of water. 1x per week is also more than adequate.

If you live in some of the western states, these two products are available at stores serviced by NGW (National Garden Wholesale) aka SunLight Mfg. and the price will be less than ordering direct from BioAg - they must have really cut some kind of deal! LOL

For example, a gallon of Ful-Power is $65.00 from BioAg which includes S&H charges. A gallon from Duh Dude at Hydro Heaven with the obligatory 'good dude discount' drops below $50.00 and if you bought their 2.5 gallon jug the price drops below $35.00 per gallon

Just trying to say that shopping price can save you quite a bit of money.

HTH*

*CC*


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## headtreep (Jun 26, 2013)

Post by CC before SST 3.0. I do the same ^


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## Shwagbag (Jun 26, 2013)

headtreep said:


> This should eliminate any questions.....
> 
> *Cootz schedules for teas and application rates:
> 
> ...


Sweet! How long do you bubble for? Do you add sweeteners, vermicompost or filtered soil mix ever? How would this work in conjunction with super soil do you reckon'?


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## GreenSanta (Jun 26, 2013)

Shwagbag said:


> Sweet! How long do you bubble for? Do you add sweeteners, vermicompost or filtered soil mix ever? How would this work in conjunction with super soil do you reckon'?


he said it would eliminate all questions. thread's over. close it.

 I think it's funny!! ok well anyway that doesnt make me wanna use Humic Acid (BioAg...) !!!!

_*that no amount of 'flushing' or 'nute deprivation' can fix or resolve.*

_
​




I will be very careful with my humic acid I guess. To be honest I have had great results having it in my SS but I believe that with good compost there should be enough of it. I refuse to use it weekly or with any type of schedule!! I LOVE WATER ONLY!! I am becoming a LAZY pothead...


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Jun 27, 2013)

Hey gang. Would it be okay to use Humic Acid from DTE instead of BioAg?

I got leftover Azomite and Humic Acid from when I use to make SS.


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## headtreep (Jun 27, 2013)

SpliffAndMyLady said:


> Hey gang. Would it be okay to use Humic Acid from DTE instead of BioAg?
> 
> I got leftover Azomite and Humic Acid from when I use to make SS.


Negative

DTE is not the real humic acid we are looking for.

GUARANTEED ANALYSIS
Down To Earth Granular Humic Acids is a highly concentrated source of humic
substances that is ideal for use on fields, turf and vegetable gardens. Carefully
mined from one of the world&#8217;s richest deposits, it is derived from the ancient
remains of decomposed organic plant materials and may increase micronutrient
uptake by plants. Naturally occurring, unaltered oxidized lignite, crushed,
screened and graded to a particle size of 1-3mm.
CONTAINS NON-PLANT
FOOD INGREDIENT(S):
50% Humic Acids derived
from Leonardite
50% Inert Ingredients


Some old notes from CC and others:

With Leonardite You have to be careful of the source. Some deposits/sources have a lot of metals/toxic crap in them.


BioAg's line of humic/fulvic acid products are not derived from Leonardite/lignite but rather fossilized peat from broad-leaved freshwater plants. Leonardite is salt water reed/sedge based according to their web page.


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## headtreep (Jun 27, 2013)

Basically in a nutshell BioAg is much more superior and is the gold standard of humic/fulvic acids.


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## kushking42 (Jun 27, 2013)

i use the dte humic acid as a soil amendment. at least i used to. for watering in bioag is the way to go


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## GreenSanta (Jun 27, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Basically in a nutshell BioAg is much more superior and is the gold standard of humic/fulvic acids.


headtreep what do you think of this

http://www.gardenerspantry.ca/attachments/humicpowdermsds.pdf

That's the humic I have been using for a couple years now. this shit is so messy though it's hard to mix the powder with water any tips would be greatly appreciated. Or would half a teaspoon sprinkled around the stalk every other week would give me decent results!? (I dont like schedule but I can do every other weeks lol)


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## headtreep (Jun 27, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> headtreep what do you think of this
> 
> http://www.gardenerspantry.ca/attachments/humicpowdermsds.pdf
> 
> That's the humic I have been using for a couple years now. this shit is so messy though it's hard to mix the powder with water any tips would be greatly appreciated. Or would half a teaspoon sprinkled around the stalk every other week would give me decent results!? (I dont like schedule but I can do every other weeks lol)


GreenSanta I've never used that product but from looking at their website they seem legit. Different than the DTE product? Seems like it. I don't know enough about humics/fulvics to comment either way. BigAg seems to be the professional standard so that's why I went with them. 

I'm always finding you get what you pay for when it comes to amendments and equipment that us gardeners use for the most part. 

Example....Want a sprayer that will last a lifetime no BS? http://www.amazon.com/Chapin-Industrial-3-5-Gallon-Concrete-1949/dp/B00002N8O8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1372383172&sr=8-1&keywords=chapin+sprayer+3.5

I love this thing.


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## kushking42 (Jun 27, 2013)

i encourage everyone to peruse their site. www.bioag.com


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## Cann (Jun 28, 2013)

and everyone remember that BioAg's application rate for TM-7 is 1 gram per gallon, a.k.a. 1/4 tsp per gallon. DO NOT USE 1TSP per gallon lol....don't follow the directions on the package, follow the directions on the website. you've been warned...


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## kushking42 (Jun 28, 2013)

i cant believe u dropped 4x the recommended dose and they didnt take a shit. crazy. im ordering a case ill let u know what the packaging says


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## Cann (Jun 28, 2013)

hehe you should see some of these plants. i'll post pics later. leaf burn like crazy. i'm glad they survived tho...

BioAg's products are the real deal...danger if overapplied


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## Cann (Jun 28, 2013)

here's a picture of a cheesequake plant from a few weeks ago..the burn has only gotten worse lol. buds are still getting quite chunky though...


most plants only have a bit of burn..this one seems to be hit the worst. BOxNL5/haze fan leaves on the left showing some burn..but the tops of those plants are still nice and green


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## Cann (Jun 28, 2013)

Here is a better look at it recently (a few days ago) - the plants in front have a good amount of leaf burn...the ones in the back are yellow from senescence, not from TM-7 



the larger plants seem to be less affected...here is a BOxNL5/haze in a 10gal smartpot

mostly on the lower fan leaves w/ her...


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## GandalfdaGreen (Jun 28, 2013)

From the looks of the last picture, I can the structure of the NL5H. Looks nice. I Love the green. Take care.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 28, 2013)

cann, I have a useless question that will help nobody. Why are your bamboo sticks upside down lol?

plus it makes your huge colas look not so huge!!! haha


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## Shwagbag (Jun 29, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> cann, I have a useless question that will help nobody. Why are your bamboo sticks upside down lol?
> 
> plus it makes your huge colas look not so huge!!! haha


I use them the same way.... Less root disturbance is my logic. Albeit insignificant, that's how my mind works and I can't help it lol.


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## Cann (Jun 29, 2013)

hehe yup my thinking is along those lines...

plus its nice to have a large thing to tie branches to instead of a flimsy little stick. i also try and pick the thickest bamboo pieces I can find @ the hardware store..there is a huge variance in diameter for the same price. definitely hard to judge the cola size based on the bamboo lol they are all different sizes...i'll post some cola beer bottle shots in a few days once I get around to it..that'll give some good perspective


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## kushking42 (Jun 29, 2013)

unless u really need support, skinny end down is the way to go. if your using them to support a large diameter remesh cage then put the fat end down first like a telephone pole. the 8' poles have a pretty thick diameter . internally close to the root structure skinny end down seems to pierce the soil with less disturbance. hate pushing bamboo through thick roots.


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## Cann (Jun 29, 2013)

hehe i can only imagine the destruction that a 1/2 inch diameter bamboo stake imparts when rammed into living soil..thousands of dead lifeforms, severed roots, disturbed fungal networks and bacterial communities, etc. 

not that the soil and plant won't immediately adapt and recover...  but still a scenario to be avoided when possible..the less disturbance the better - the essence of no-till farming


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## Mohican (Jun 29, 2013)

I think the more you abuse the plant, to some extent, the more vigor it displays.


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## Shwagbag (Jun 29, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I think the more you abuse the plant, to some extent, the more vigor it displays.


I would agree, unless the disturbance is in the root zone.


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## Mohican (Jun 29, 2013)

Smart pots burn the root tips to induce more root side branching. Plants try harder when they think they are in danger.


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## dl290485 (Jun 30, 2013)

I'm finally getting to the bit where I mix up my first ROLS soil

*Have/ordered already:*​

8x 25L planter bags
48L *Lava rock*
80L *coco coir*
75L *EWC*
9kg *Rock dust *mix which says on the bag "calcium 5%, Phosphorus .08%, Sulphur .04%, Potassium 3%, Magnesium 2.5%, Silicon 25%, Iron 5.5"
*Liquid kelp extract*- 'Seasol'
*Great White*
*Haven't been able to get:*
​

*Kelp meal*- I don't know where to buy this other than health food rip-off stores.
*Neem meal*- Is impossible to get in this country because no one imports it
*Crab meal*- I can't afford to pay $27 a kilo for fresh crab and haven't found anywhere to scrounge the shells from yet. As for buying it already powdered, it's yet another product not sold in this country.

*Soil recipe thus far:*​Originally I was going to do even parts Coco coir + EWC + Lava rock but i've ended up will less lava rock than planned and I don't want to spend any more money on it (so many bills, so little money). 


So the end ratio i'm going with is *24% lava rock, 38.5% coco coir, 37.5% ewc. *(48L, 77L, 75L)
Rock dust directions say 1kg per 100L but i'll use double that and use 4kg for the 200L
Watered in with the liquid kelp + great white

*
My questions: 
*​

What am I missing because of the lack of Crab meal? 
Obviously Chiten is missing, but how bad am I going to miss that? My dust has some calcium in it, but do I have to put something else in the soil for more minerals maybe? 
What about the neem meal? 
Obviously I won't get the pest resistence from the neem, but am I going to be missing out on elements? (I ask because i've read it acts as a slow release fertilizer)
And the kelp meal?
Can I use liquid kelp while watering to substitute for the fact that I don't have kelp meal in the soil mix? I know the liquid has practically no NPK but i've read that the meal breaks down and is a 'slow release fertilzer'- so again, is this something I need to replace for elements sake or will liquid kelp help?
Should I think about mixing in some Blood and Bone?
I know i'm meant to be feeding the soil and not the plant but.... maybe a bit of this too? Maybe I need to since i'm missing 3 components described as slow release fertilizers? lol also if i believe the label it encourages soil life
Anything else?


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## jubiare (Jun 30, 2013)

Be careful with the sole coco, it has been reported to cause certain issues.. Couldn't you source some peat and/or nursery bark?


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## dl290485 (Jun 30, 2013)

Only peat I can find is $5.95 per 5 liters. So if rounding 77L up to 80L at that rate would cost me $95.20 if I replaced all the coco with it. Even if I only replaced half, that's still a lot of money (to me).
The coco brick cost me $13.50 for 90L (looks more like 80L though maybe)


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## hyroot (Jul 2, 2013)

My brother took back his dehydrater. So I can't make aloe powder easily now. Im going to try 2 other methods to make aloe powder. 

1. vacuum sublimation. I only have a food saver to vacuum with an air tight container so it will take a while.
2. Freeze sublimation. Takes about a week or so supposedly. Works the same way as freezer curing buds.

I thought of just drying it out in the 106 degree dry heat outside. The dehydrater runs at a little under 140 degrees. But I read that too much air flow and air pollution can create problems. Thats with dehydrating foods under the sun. Im sure aloe applies to that.

Let you all know how it goes.


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## nepko (Jul 2, 2013)

Hello guys . I just want to ask you about something that in my mind ... My question is this - Some fishes in aquarium who poops and eat the algea and some snails who eat the waste ot the algea and some of the part of the fishes poops can the water be used like a kind of fertilizer or a supplement to the medium for more nutes ?! Are anyone used the water from his aquarium for this or not . I think this water its full of everything for our ladies but is it good for using it or not ? I have lily or maybe to say ( dunno which is the better word to use it ) flower - de - luce which is much better and stronger when I put it on in the aquarium with the snails and my fishes who are pooping to enough  . Thanks and have a nice day .


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## headtreep (Jul 2, 2013)

It seems the other player have gone back to 2.0 SST instead of the Malted Barley Flour. Of course fresh will always be better than a powder. I plan to use the rest of my powder and revert back to 2.0. Cheers!

Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0

Jon Stika of Brew Your Own Magazine describes malt as "barley that has been sprouted to the point where enzymes are produced that will convert its starchy interior to sugar." After the grain has been malted, the sugar is fermented by yeast to make beer.

This is an accurate overview of an article he wrote for those who want to make their own malt and here's the Reader's Digest version:

Weigh out 2 oz. of Barley seed and remove any foreign matter by the seeds into a large jar and fill it half-way with water and agitate to wash the barley. Pour off loose husks & dirt that float to the top. Drain in a colander. Repeat until everything has been removed.

Soak the seeds in water for 8 - 10 hours. Drain the seeds and weigh after completely draining the water off. Assuming you started with 56 grams, you want to hit a minimum of 84 grams at the end of these processes.

Let the Barley rest for 8 - 10 hours and then soak for another 8 hours, drain and weigh. Repeat if necessary but that's not too unlikely.

Take a piece of cloth and you want to use something as 'raw' as possible like hemp cloth, organic cotton, linen, canvas, flax, etc. - just check with a large fabric store. If you buy a piece that is a square it probably helps or doesn't.

Wet your cloth, wring out and fold it 2 times. During the rest cycles this is where you want to let the seeds rest. You want moisture surrounding the seeds but not water.

Once you hit 84+ grams, spread your seeds again in the middle of this folded piece of fabric, place that in a brown paper bag - 55F - 65F ambient temperatures will move this along quickly.

When the shoots inside the seed have grown the length of the seed you're done. You're not growing sprouts but rather activating the enzymes and the compounds in the endosperm as described in the post above.

Take these seeds and put them in a blender and some water and get it to a puree to the extent possible. Using 56 grams to start will give enough puree to make 5 gallons of tea.

Water your plants with this diluted tea. This will give you far, far more enzymes than the straight sprouting method. One thing about beer brewers is that they live & die by enzyme levels extracted from seeds and this article is cited on several home brew forums.


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## yankeegreen (Jul 2, 2013)

headtreep said:


> It seems the other player have gone back to 2.0 SST instead of the Malted Barley Flour. Of course fresh will always be better than a powder. I plan to use the rest of my powder and revert back to 2.0. Cheers!
> 
> Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0
> 
> ...



Malted barley is available at your local HBS. The premium maybe worth foregoing the messy, time and space consuming malting process yourself. Is the SST 2.0 process different enough from commercial malting procedures to make it a deal breaker? Any idea if the pre-malted barley (or other grains) loose enough of their freshly-malted goodness over time?


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## headtreep (Jul 2, 2013)

yankeegreen said:


> Malted barley is available at your local HBS. The premium maybe worth foregoing the messy, time and space consuming malting process yourself. Is the SST 2.0 process different enough from commercial malting procedures to make it a deal breaker? Any idea if the pre-malted barley (or other grains) loose enough of their freshly-malted goodness over time?


I've been using the powder and getting great results but it does make sense to use fresh if available before any powders imo and could be more cost effective. CC'd mentioned going back to SST 2.0 but took a break the forum without any real explanation on why. Anyone running a side by side currently with pics? SS 2.0 vs 3.0? That would be great to see.

Off subject, I won't be around RIU too often anymore because of time issues. Hopefully things change but for now it's out of my control. I can't keep up with these large threads and life balance. 

Please keep on the ROLS/No till journey!


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## Stoned Drifter (Jul 2, 2013)

will sunflower seeds work for sst 2.0?


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## Cann (Jul 3, 2013)

anything that will germinate and produce enzymes...

although barley is known for its high diastatic power - a.k.a. amount of enzymes. this is the reason barley is preferred by brewers...its all in the enzymes

i've used mung beans, hemp seeds, alfalfa, barley, fenugreek, etc....really anything that is organic and will germinate 

hope that helps


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## LaCasaVerde (Jul 3, 2013)

headtreep said:


> I've been using the powder and getting great results but it does make sense to use fresh if available before any powders imo and could be more cost effective. CC'd mentioned going back to SST 2.0 but took a break the forum without any real explanation on why. Anyone running a side by side currently with pics? SS 2.0 vs 3.0? That would be great to see.
> 
> Off subject, I won't be around RIU too often anymore because of time issues. Hopefully things change but for now it's out of my control. I can't keep up with these large threads and life balance.
> 
> Please keep on the ROLS/No till journey!


Thank you headtreep for sharing your wealth of information. Hope to see an occasional update on the results of your latest ROLS mix. I'll keep following this this thread and hopefully make my own contributions in the near future.

Take Care.


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## Cann (Jul 4, 2013)

here is an example of the power of no-tills once they are established

4 weeks of growth from 6/4 to 7/4 (today)

these are both BOxNL5/haze from swami...unreal vigor


beer bottle size colas.....and this is only week 7 


fannnnntastic


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## jubiare (Jul 4, 2013)

^^^^^^^^Beautiful!


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## Rising Moon (Jul 5, 2013)

Cann said:


> hehe you should see some of these plants. i'll post pics later. leaf burn like crazy. i'm glad they survived tho...
> 
> BioAg's products are the real deal...danger if overapplied


For real...

I just had some very weird leaf growth in my veg tent, after eying out a little too much Ful-Power...

They are back to normal a week later, and no more fulvic, but seeing the OD effects is weird, they looked unhappy. Curls and spirals, and they also put out some lopsided 3 leaf fans...whoops.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 5, 2013)

Rising Moon said:


> For real...
> 
> I just had some very weird leaf growth in my veg tent, after eying out a little too much Ful-Power...
> 
> They are back to normal a week later, and no more fulvic, but seeing the OD effects is weird, they looked unhappy. Curls and spirals, and they also put out some lopsided 3 leaf fans...whoops.


Are you using the ful-power as a soil drench, foliar, or both?


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## hyroot (Jul 6, 2013)

I went to oc farm supply. Picked up a few bags of eco scraps compost. Its by far better quality than home depot eco scraps and different mix Its more broken down or composted and finer grains. From a distance it looks like ewc. Its moist and smells good. Some of the time home depot ones are not broken down enough. Its almost always dry and smells like Norco. They gave me an tangerine /.cucumber hybrid they grew. It was different. Im stoked on what I got. I dont have to cook it myself for a couple weeks.


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## Mohican (Jul 9, 2013)

Sweet! They sell big bags of EWC also. It looks like coffee grounds. I picked up my batch of strawberries from them this spring. They are still going strong. Can't wait to put them under the greenhouse dome for next season so I get to have some of the strawberries 


EWC:





Cheers,
Mo


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Jul 9, 2013)

Hey hyroot, have you had any issues with the ecoscraps compost, other than it not being broken down enough? Im trying to find a good quality vegan compost to replace my Alaskan humisoil now that I found out that it's just peat moss. I've read some bad reviews about the ecoscraps. People claim to be finding mold, plastics, and shit tons of aphids, so I'm just curious if you've encountered any of these issues. I know everyone on here recommends Bu's Blend, but I'd really like to keep it vegan if possible until I can start making my own compost.


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2013)

Its good. The worst ones were dry and not broken down and smelled like manure. Once it aired out for a couple days, the smell went away. It only took a week or 2 to cook. But apparently there are different mixes. The home depot one says its made from fruits and veggies. Lists the fruits veggies. The one at oc farm supply has different packaging and says on the bag its made from veggies and fruits and composted forest products and monmorillonite clay.

The people who own and make it are local. So it depends on where you buy it. If you are not in socal. You should get it from Eco scraps directly.



Mo how much was the bag of ewc? I didn't even look or ask. I've been making my own. But I'm running low right now.


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## Mohican (Jul 9, 2013)

Can't remember - 30 something? They are big bags!


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2013)

I think all my worms died. I don't see any. It got pretty dry in there. Ive been so busy. Been behind on garden work. It doesn't smell bad and doesn't really have any odors coming from the bin. I just went out to my 30 gal avacodo planter and pulled out 20 red wigglers real quick. Added them to the bin. I know that's no where near enough.


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## Mohican (Jul 9, 2013)

They can multiply very quickly!


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2013)

Mo do you know any where local that sells worms? Any bait shops? I found one in Devore. $15 for a 5 gal bucket. But after gas its a lot more than that. Devore is far..... Online is more expensive.


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## Mohican (Jul 9, 2013)

Did you check with OC Farm Supply?


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2013)

No. I was in a hurry. Ill call them up.


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## Firstoffallen (Jul 9, 2013)

Ok im sure the answer is in this large thread but........ Anyway Fox Farm Happy Frog would this be reusable like other organic soil?


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## NickNasty (Jul 10, 2013)

Firstoffallen said:


> Ok im sure the answer is in this large thread but........ Anyway Fox Farm Happy Frog would this be reusable like other organic soil?


Yeah just reamend and cook like anything else all my soil started off as fox farm and its been going strong for years.


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## Cann (Jul 10, 2013)

as long as the original soil was organic, you are good to go


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## Mohican (Jul 10, 2013)

Can any of you recommend a good source of sulfur?


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## hyroot (Jul 10, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Can any of you recommend a good source of sulfur?


Epsom salt, neem meal/ cake, gypsum rock, kelp, glacial rock dust, basalt rock dust, green sand, rain water


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## Mohican (Jul 10, 2013)

Thanks! Which is the best for Cannabis? Have any of you ever seen four fingered Sativa with red stems?






Cheers,
Mo


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## hyroot (Jul 10, 2013)

Yes I have seen those plenty of times.it sometimes is a retarded pheno that is different. Like russet potatoes. The Uk cheese is really a retarded skunk 1 pheno . Cinderella 99 is a retarded Afghan kush pheno. Others times its just still an immature plant.

Kelp and neem would be best.

Oc farm supply does have red wiggler worms. "$14 for a big box" said the girl on the phone. She didn't know how many or how much it weighed.


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## Cann (Jul 10, 2013)

don't worry about the red stems lol...totally fine. 

personally, i use gypsum for sulfur. it's also a great calcium source. 1/2 cup per cuft when I am building a soil...no idea how much to add for a reamend. 

oh...and glacial rock dust will have sulfur too, just lower amounts


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## colocowboy (Jul 10, 2013)

All due respect hyroot but c99 is a one off of Shiva Skunk x Jack Herrer aka *Princess* = (Haze x {Northern Lights #5 x Shiva Skunk}) that was then cubed


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## HÃ¿dra (Jul 10, 2013)

What is the preferred starter recipe for ROLS? Will be getting my ingredients together and just want to make sure im going of the best list I have been not having good luck with bottled nutes, and want big nice plants like Treep, cann, and rrog...
CHeers!


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Jul 10, 2013)

does anyone here dilute their compost teas?


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## hyroot (Jul 11, 2013)

SeniorFrostyKush said:


> does anyone here dilute their compost teas?


I do but I make a strong tea. lol . It is easier to make one tea and dilute it amongst 4 buckets than it is to make 4 teas. Here at ROLS, we are all about making growing as lazy as possible..lol

now that's a mission statement...





disclaimer:
this person is not responsible for the claims this person made and this persons actions do not reflect on this person or persons who are responsible for the actions made by this claim....lol


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## GreenSanta (Jul 12, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Yes I have seen those plenty of times.it sometimes is a retarded pheno that is different. Like russet potatoes. The Uk cheese is really a retarded skunk 1 pheno . Cinderella 99 is a retarded Afghan kush pheno. Others times its just still an immature plant.
> 
> Kelp and neem would be best.
> 
> Oc farm supply does have red wiggler worms. "$14 for a big box" said the girl on the phone. She didn't know how many or how much it weighed.


The 3 Cheese #1 I have grown (or currently growing) smell like coffee / Cheese, quite pleasant smell actually I am revegging the heavy yielder... not sure I would call them retarded lol


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 12, 2013)

Just started my ROLS grow last night. They look so happy. Thank you all for the information provided here, It was what made me decide to do ROLS. SIMPLICITY! Does everyone here have worms living in there pots? I put some in my pots, not sure how that will go.


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## Cann (Jul 12, 2013)

i always have worms in my pots. i didn't put 95% of them there, they showed up from topdressing castings w/ cocoons. a few I placed in the pots long, long ago. 

I harvested a plant last week, and then cannibalized some of the soil for some rooted clones...planted 10 clones into party cups..when I transplanted them today I found at least 1 worm in each party cup...they tend to congregate at the top or bottom of the pots, so when you transplant and flip the pot upside down you often find yourself looking at a few worms in the rootball. i swear some of my #45 smartpots have enough worms to be borderline considered a wormbin...

your worms will be fine as long as you water enough. if you let the soil dry out you will see the worms trying to make an exodus. often they don't make it far and end up drying out on the floor..there are the occasional crispy worms in my tent  

welcome to the ROLS party! 



Qrazy Train ~ 8 weeks


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 13, 2013)

When i first started a worm bin i had a few dried out worms around the bin.. But now i don't see any fried ones. It's been a real treat to walk into the garden and see really healthy plants. I was never good with chemicals.. LOL


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## jubiare (Jul 14, 2013)

Hÿdra;9320780 said:


> What is the preferred starter recipe for ROLS? Will be getting my ingredients together and just want to make sure im going of the best list I have been not having good luck with bottled nutes, and want big nice plants like Treep, cann, and rrog...
> CHeers!


Any at the start of the thread, as long as you stress on the ewc/compost quality.. You'll be fine really! You'll see anyone has their twist on the recipe and likes/dislikes, start from one of them and soon you'll be experimenting your own take!
You'll be laughing out loud on your chemical bottles failures, soon enough eheh


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## danielJackson (Jul 14, 2013)

Wooo made it! Finishing, a long thread is like getting to the end of a book, only you get to brag to the author's at the end. Thank you all very much for the information and inspiration!

I have a lot to figure out of course, but had a couple questions to start. 

1) For those using Blumats: Can you topdress under the drips? Is it possible to reduce the amount of "drenching" by doing this? 

I grow in a space where it really helps to reduce the amount of mixing water and hand watering. (Upstairs, no bathroom, carpet, hobbit sized doorway....) I have been using subcool's Super Soil successfully so far with plain water only, but I want to take it to the next level in terms of flavor (in particular).

2) Options for tackling veg space for a smallish (1-4k watt) grow using beds or pots so large that they can't be moved? There was some talk about it earlier in the thread, but if possible I'd like to explore it further. This is an area critical to maximizing yields, and requires no funky synth inputs 

My space is about 5x12, with access along the 12' side (3 doors right now). 

I have 3k watters now, 2 on flower all the time, one that veg's 2/3 of the time before starting the flower for about 2 weeks. I harvest the 2 lights every 45 days (8-9ish week strains), so the plants have about 45 days under 2k, 15 days under 1k, 30 days under 1k vegging, and about 2-3 weeks before that under T5's rooting and getting started. 

Plants are in 7Gal @ 4 per light.

It works well for me so far. In particular I find that having the plants stretch while they are kinda cramped leaves a little extra space after I move them. Not necessarily maximizing; however, I don't have much larf. 

I get about 8 cycles per year (16 1k watt light turns-ish per year) on this funky cycle. If I am going to veg in the beds which fill a whole 4'x4' area obviously this will have go down (worth it for better buds!). The best I can come up with for 3k in a 4x12 is about 75% of that, albeit with increased light for veg (perhaps dim the light for part of veg?).

Going to try "Mainling" too... Gotta lover free collected wisdom.

Random Thought- In my experience so far, rent costs often exceed power, power exceeds dirt/nutes/etc (other consumables). By figuring out how to best use our space we can make the biggest difference in our yield for a given amount of effort (money, since you have to earn it...) Another way to look at it; maximize everything else before increasing how much space you use. 

Thanks to everyone and I look forward to your comments and conversation.


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## Cann (Jul 16, 2013)

sweet ol' ROLS

_"The One" x Blue Moon Rocks Bx1

_



biggest cola i've ever grown


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 16, 2013)

Cann that cola is huge, do you have a dry weight on it? Also for barley seed tea after you get roots sprouting out of the seed, that's when you get new clean water and soak them for 12 - 24 hours..Correct? 
The reason I ask is because i must have done something wrong. I made the barley tea however my plants didn't respond like i have been told they would. Don't get me wrong they look great to me, they just did not "Pray"


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## Cann (Jul 16, 2013)

no dry weight yet...soon

for the SST...i usually soak for 12 hrs or so, drain, then rinse every 12 hrs until the seeds start to have a tap root. once the tap root is 1/4-1/2 inch long, i fill the jar with water and bubble for 36-48 hrs. that should produce a decent praying effect (although it is always amplified if you use the SST in conjunction with aloe or coconut h2o)

maybe try out this method (it's the new and improved SST recipe from cootz): 
_
"Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0

Jon Stika of Brew Your Own Magazine describes malt as "barley that has been sprouted to the point where enzymes are produced that will convert its starchy interior to sugar." After the grain has been malted, the sugar is fermented by yeast to make beer. 

This is an accurate overview of an article he wrote for those who want to make their own malt and here's the Reader's Digest version:

Weigh out 2 oz. of Barley seed and remove any foreign matter by the seeds into a large jar and fill it half-way with water and agitate to wash the barley. Pour off loose husks & dirt that float to the top. Drain in a colander. Repeat until everything has been removed.

Soak the seeds in water for 8 - 10 hours. Drain the seeds and weigh after completely draining the water off. Assuming you started with 56 grams, you want to hit a minimum of 84 grams at the end of these processes. 

Let the Barley rest for 8 - 10 hours and then soak for another 8 hours, drain and weigh. Repeat if necessary but that's not too unlikely.

Take a piece of cloth and you want to use something as 'raw' as possible like hemp cloth, organic cotton, linen, canvas, flax, etc. - just check with a large fabric store. If you buy a piece that is a square it probably helps or doesn't. 

Wet your cloth, wring out and fold it 2 times. During the rest cycles this is where you want to let the seeds rest. You want moisture surrounding the seeds but not water.

Once you hit 84+ grams, spread your seeds again in the middle of this folded piece of fabric, place that in a brown paper bag - 55F - 65F ambient temperatures will move this along quickly.

When the shoots inside the seed have grown the length of the seed you're done. You're not growing sprouts but rather activating the enzymes and the compounds in the endosperm as described in the post above.

Take these seeds and put them in a blender and some water and get it to a puree to the extent possible. Using 56 grams to start will give enough puree to make 5 gallons of tea. 

Water your plants with this diluted tea. This will give you far, far more enzymes than the straight sprouting method. One thing about beer brewers is that they live & die by enzyme levels extracted from seeds and this article is cited on several home brew forums.

This is definitely the way to use Barley and other seeds...__"_


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 16, 2013)

I will try out this method. These are my SFV OG kush clones, rite before lights out.. I think sfv og kush is kinda boring, It yeilds low, and its stretchy. I am thinking of trying something new soon, well after this 4 month cycle. Oh and the metal poles, are for a screen i am building to combat the height of this plant.


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## Mohican (Jul 16, 2013)

What is the malted barley powder you can get at the health food store called again?


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## danielJackson (Jul 16, 2013)

I think these were mentioned, but there might have been others. The first is Diastic Malt Powder, and the second is Malted Barley Flour. I think they are both for the SST 3 right? I'm still learning, sorry if I'm wrong and caused confusion.

http://www.amazon.com/Diastatic-Malt-Powder-1-lb/dp/B0001AVRRE 

http://www.amazon.com/Bobs-Red-Mill-20-Ounce-Packages/dp/B000EDDS02/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1370980161&sr=8-1&keywords=malted+barley+flour


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## jaydub13 (Jul 16, 2013)

The sugar in malted barley powder is maltose. Maltose is the food source for the barley as it sprouts. Maltose is essentially two molecules of glucose formed by an ionic bond. Glucose is also the sugar produced by the plant during photosynthesis. 

Brown rice syrup is comprised mostly of glucose and maltose, and serves the same purpose as the barley powder. Glucose has the highest uptake rate by mycorrhiza and plants.

Hope that doesn't sound negating to the OP, but in my opinion it is the best sugar additive you can add to a feeding schedule! 

Dub


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## Cann (Jul 16, 2013)

in terms of sugar, yes...in terms of enzymes, no. barley has a much higher diastatic power than brown rice. but definitely noted as far as sugar goes, thanks


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## jaydub13 (Jul 16, 2013)

I missed that on my first read thru that your purpose was enzymes, I glanced and assumed. But thank you for the info also, interesting stuff!


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## Kalyx (Jul 19, 2013)

Nice nug cann! Cultivation style and genetics coming together perfectly! That plant looked amazing. Great work, especially as its hot out now! How many days did you harvest TOxBMR Bx1?


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## Cann (Jul 19, 2013)

thanks 

I harvested at day 60 which IMO was a little early but it was getting hot and I was running out of room..didnt want to risk mildew on such a beautiful plant hehe. ideally I would've taken it at 65 days probably. 

here it is dried up and curing:


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## Kalyx (Jul 19, 2013)

Very frosty! Gas has great gear, and I like what you do with it.


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## Cann (Jul 19, 2013)

hehe just weighed that fatty cola.....34.2 grams dry 

now thats what i'm talkin about


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## KronicCraig (Jul 20, 2013)

Just started my first organic grow after being talked into bottled nutes by the guy at the hydro store. Dropped 3 sativa seedlings in some FF Happy Frog soil and plan on top dressing and spiking throughout their life cycle. After my two synthetic grown plants are finished, I'll be starting another organic bin and hope to stay away from bone/blood meal. Got lots of seaweed and aloe down here in FLA, should be straight for nitrogen, calcium, and trace minerals, add some epsom salt for magnesium and egg shells for pH; what are good natural sources for potassium and phosphorus? I've heard about using bananas but how would you prepare there for amending soil?


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## jcmjrt (Jul 20, 2013)

Greensand is a good source of potassium but only if you are recycling your soil since it is VERY slow release...which is also why it's so good. 

Phosphorous - bone meal, fish bone meal, shrimp meal (also provides chitin!), soft rock phosphate. 

Banana peel tea - banana peels and/or part of a banana boiled in water, then cool, strain and water with it.

You should read about worm composting too. The quality of your compost is really quite key to healthy soil and plants and you can feed your worms your rock dusts, greensand, kelp, etc and get all the useful benefits for the soil AND healthy microbial activity.


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## roor8911 (Jul 22, 2013)

hi there, recently got into growing and my first run is done but was terrible yield/quality because i did not fully understand organics, so went back to the forums and ordered my self a copy of teaming with microbes and i am hoping my third run will be better.

i havent had a chance to use a properly amended ss mix yet, as the first mix i made all the amounts were way out, 
since i did not have another soil mix and it looked like some of the excessive amounts of organic material id added might of been used up by my first grow. i decided to just replant straight into this bodged mix for my second. This run is going 1000 times better already but only time will tell.....

Anyway i wanted to post my NEW soil mix up so you experts can have a look and see if its ok and balanced well enough
Thanks B


heres a recipe i have cooking at the moment


50l bio bizz all mix 
2kg ewc
425g fish blood&bone
283g bat guano
170g rock phosphate
1.5 tblsp epsom salt
2tblsp dolomite lime
1 tsp per 2 inch of pot azomite
3/4 tblsp humic acid
300g kelp meal 
150g oyster shell
20l coco coir horti grade
100g ssp (single super phosphate)
200g potash


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## poopookaka (Jul 24, 2013)

i have a question about the sst. what does the second soak accomplish? as i understand it, sst v2 instructs to 1. soak seeds in water; 2. "rest" seeds in wet cloth; 3. soak again in water; 4. then put back in wet cloth.

i just did one soak and the seed are sprouting fine in the cloth. so, if i rinse after the first soak, what am i gaining by another transfer?


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 24, 2013)

poopookaka said:


> i have a question about the sst. what does the second soak accomplish? as i understand it, sst v2 instructs to 1. soak seeds in water; 2. "rest" seeds in wet cloth; 3. soak again in water; 4. then put back in wet cloth.
> 
> i just did one soak and the seed are sprouting fine in the cloth. so, if i rinse after the first soak, what am i gaining by another transfer?


The second soak is supposedly when the enzymes are released .... which is what you're after. I've never done this myself as I tracked down a bag of the malted barley flour. I haven't noticed anything one way or another since I've been using it, but apparently now the sst V2 is being recommended again over the flour. Tough to keep track of all of these tips.

I love your user name too!


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 24, 2013)

I have used SST v2 and i can say i works well when foliar, or when i watered into the soil. They have been really happy the last couple of days! I plan on using it again soon.

SFV OG kush day 15 of veg.


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## Kalyx (Jul 24, 2013)

The first water must be discarded as it is full of anti microbial compounds that help protect the germinating seed from pathogens. The next rinse 'collects' the plethora of beneficial enzyme and other compounds being exuded in very high concentrations by the emerging root systems. These are what make our plants benefit so much from sst. I gotta work this in. Just alternating malted barely flour with soaked crushed 6 row malt and they seem to benefit. Fresh and alive is always superior though!

PLC definitely the real deal OG there. Hella spaced out, stemmy veg growth and lots of 3 bladed leaves. Don't worry she fills in a lot more than what she looks like early on! Enjoy that funk!


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## headbanger (Jul 25, 2013)

What's up organic freaks!?!?


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 25, 2013)

kalyx - Yeah this is the real deal og. (Sfv cut) I've been using different techniques to try to keep the height down.I had a bunch of 5ft tall one last run, i like to keep the height at about 3 - 4 ft max. She is stoney though, personally i like strains with less of a lemony hash taste but its still a good smoke.


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## Cann (Jul 25, 2013)

hehe headbanger what you doin round these parts??? buckle your seatbelt lol it's a bit different over here


PeaceLoveCannabis - enzyme teas are generally used for soil application only..there aren't many benefits to enzymes in the phyllosphere (not many reactions happening there compared to everything thats happening in the soil). i use barley and coconut water exclusively in the soil, no foliars. 

try fulvic acid and aloe for a foliar  thats one of my favorites. w/ a bit of potassium silicate (agsil or pro-tekt) as well


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## whodatnation (Jul 25, 2013)

Hey everyone. I unsuccessfully try to lurk this thread, because I got a million and one things going on, but just came across these two vids and thought it fitting in such a place.

Im getting my rols on but have yet to dabble in no till in containers, my veggie garden is no till though. 

Hope yall enjoy these as much as I did. reace:

[video=youtube;YCTojU6H40c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCTojU6H40c[/video]


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## whodatnation (Jul 25, 2013)

[video=youtube;mAJyeIOaat4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJyeIOaat4&amp;list=WL3F43055D8ECBF858[/video]


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## sheffmke (Jul 25, 2013)

This thread (and the sources cited) is hands down the best information i've come across while researching my start in organics. Thank you everyone for your time and for imparting your knowledge.

I plan on picking up some coconut and aloe 200x powder for sure. I have a question on watering with them--what is the ratio per gallon? And is it ok to use every watering with protekt veg through harvest? (Note: I have 1 cup of azomite in 2 cubic ft of soil so I thought silica was covered, but protekt is ok in addition? I have some left over from hydro).

I was planning on using a basic EWC tea every other watering, so is it advisable to use barley seed extract in that brew being as I know heat is going to be an issue? What would be the ratios in a gallon of tea for that? Any other tips on dealing with heat stress would be great. While we're on tea....I have a big bottle of Floralicious Plus going unused (again left over from hydro), so would it be appropriate to use 1ml a gallon in the tea? I'll ditch it if is not appropriate...just wanted to get it used up.

Also wanted to get everyone's take on using a triacontanol product during flowering. Is this totally over the top and not needed?

I'm sorry if my questions are already covered elsewhere. I've done so much reading that i've sort of got a little bit unorganized!

Thanks again.


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 25, 2013)

I mainly use the enzyme teas for soil application. However it seems like after i spray a lactobacillus spray on the leaves and it dries i follow up with an enzyme spray. I would say the plants like it, and seem to benefit from it. I agree with you on the reactions happening in the soil, most likely because there is far more life in the soil then on the leaf surfaces. Not that there isn't any on the leafs either.


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## Organic Toker (Jul 25, 2013)

Thought of takin a walk through here once in a while, now am stuck 

I really really like lickin up all the info here  yumm yumm..

I have been giving them some coco water and they seem to love it (lot mor than i do) Was thinking of makin some enzy tea with some pea/gram seeds. I'll tell how it goes later.

Watch ya grow n lay back puffin dat big fat j..

Peace!


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## Cann (Jul 26, 2013)

diggin the look of this sweet tooth cola....columns of calyxes


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## Shwagbag (Jul 27, 2013)

whodatnation said:


> [video=youtube;mAJyeIOaat4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mAJyeIOaat4&amp;list=WL3F43055D8ECBF858[/video]


Dude this looks awesome, I can't wait to watch it! Need to set aside some time for that one lol.


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## roseypeach (Jul 28, 2013)

I've watched over half of it already, man, how great is that? the only part I was kinda uh mm....was the poor piggies. I kept seeing Babe from the Vegucated movie  

I'm gonna finish watching it though, I'm very interested to see how the bread ends up and what happens to the meat in the sealed plastic ...he said it might EXPLODE!


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## whodatnation (Jul 28, 2013)

Dude it gets even better as it goes on..... Amazing stuff.


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## roseypeach (Jul 28, 2013)

I'm gonna finish watching it right quick. Got about 25 minutes left or so. BRB.


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## whodatnation (Jul 28, 2013)

1:03:30 blew my mind! Slime mold FTW!


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## roseypeach (Jul 28, 2013)

What strain is this?





Cann said:


> diggin the look of this sweet tooth cola....columns of calyxes
> 
> View attachment 2751516


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Jul 28, 2013)

Pretty nice documentary. The science of decay. Interesting indeed.


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## whodatnation (Jul 28, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> What strain is this?




SWEET TOOTH......... words.


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## snowboarder396 (Jul 28, 2013)

Sweet tooth is good strain.


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## jubiare (Jul 29, 2013)

View attachment 2754585View attachment 2754586


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## whodatnation (Jul 29, 2013)

Luv the led diy, jubiare.


Hey snowboarder, Iv been wondering what you av is? Got me curious! 

I'll post some rols pron later today or tonight.... It sure grows good herb


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## snowboarder396 (Jul 30, 2013)

whodatnation said:


> Luv the led diy, jubiare.
> 
> 
> Hey snowboarder, Iv been wondering what you av is? Got me curious!
> ...


My av is of thc/cannabinoids attacking and killing off cancerous cells


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## Stoned Drifter (Jul 31, 2013)

picked up some organic coconut flour. was gonna use it at 30mL per gal. anyone knows if it will work?


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## GreenSanta (Jul 31, 2013)

good show about the process of decay, thanks for sharing. I will never cut the mold off of moldy bread thinking that i can safely eat the rest of the loaf ,... not that i was doing it that often but it happened in the past lol


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## HÃ¿dra (Aug 1, 2013)

What sort of yield could i expect with two plants vegged for 6-8 weeks under a single 1000w bulb??? I know its HIGHLY subjective, but middle of the road average is what i am looking for. I am moving to colorado and am trying to plan out my grows. Trying to get an idea of how bad a reduction in plant count will hurt (24 to 12) 

CHeers!


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## woody333333 (Aug 1, 2013)

Hÿdra;9417326 said:


> What sort of yield could i expect with two plants vegged for 6-8 weeks under a single 1000w bulb??? I know its HIGHLY subjective, but middle of the road average is what i am looking for. I am moving to colorado and am trying to plan out my grows. Trying to get an idea of how bad a reduction in plant count will hurt (24 to 12)
> 
> CHeers!


2 plants you might be better off just to grow one...........anything less that a pound w that veg time is a failure


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## whodatnation (Aug 1, 2013)

All depends on genetics and grower skill. Middle of the road,,, average grower, slightly less than perfect conditions, av yielding strain, probably 1lb... Whats more important is quality, find bomb genetics and let soil do its magic and keep temps ect perfect,,, then its just genetic limitations and grower exp.


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## SeniorFrostyKush (Aug 1, 2013)

ya bro, Colorado plant count limitations are fucking ridiculous. that's why im upgrading to gorilla tents here pretty soon. that way I can veg twice as long and still have an average turnover with fewer plants.


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## hyroot (Aug 2, 2013)

woody333333 said:


> 2 plants you might be better off just to grow one...........anything less that a pound w that veg time is a failure


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## woody333333 (Aug 2, 2013)

hyroot said:


>


u got something to say?.................honestly i paused after i posted that and asked myself why i did ........ i know this thread is serious time and i dont really want to be involved w the conversation ......i was high...........but now im curious what your issue is .... my post is 100 percent correct ................if its some kind of left over butt hurt we can talk about it somewhere else..


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## hyroot (Aug 2, 2013)

woody333333 said:


> u got something to say?.................honestly i paused after i posted that and asked myself why i did ........ i know this thread is serious time and i dont really want to be involved w the conversation ......i was high...........but now im curious what your issue is .... my post is 100 percent correct ................if its some kind of left over butt hurt we can talk about it somewhere else..


thats basically directed towards me.. it takes me 4-5 plants to get a pound. hence hitting the wall and cussing emoticons. Thats are my strains too. They grow poodle style buds. They only fill out the stalk on top buds and they grow in 7 gals. i noticed the tall 7gals yield less and veg slower than the short / wide 7 gals.


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## woody333333 (Aug 2, 2013)

hyroot said:


> thats basically talking shit on myself. it takes me 4 plants to get a pound


maybe im a little jumpy...........


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Aug 2, 2013)

Hyroot, I have been told by many growers and friends that the width of the pot is more important then the depth. They say that the roots shoot down, then they spread out. If they shoot down and there is no where else to go then growth slows etc. I am not saying this is a fact either. This is just advice given to me, and it seems to be true.

Here is some photos of the no-till. It looks like they are loving it. Just switched to 12 - 12.


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## Herb Man (Aug 9, 2013)

Great thread subbed.


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## poopookaka (Aug 10, 2013)

i'm entering the last 3 weeks of my first grow, which is a ROLS grow thanks to ya'll. i'm using kelp, sst, coco water, tm7, ful-power, and fresh aloe vera for soil soaks. is there anything i should cut back on? also, any finishing tips would be greatly appreciated (e.g., light/water schedule modifications).


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 10, 2013)

Cootz mentioned upping the coconut water regiment from a 1/2 cup per gallon H2O to 1 cup coconut water per gallon H2O towards the end of flower. No need to cut back on, or alter anything else.

I asked this very question on another forum.


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## Cann (Aug 11, 2013)

make sure you flush heavily


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## jubiare (Aug 11, 2013)

Sure or it'll taste "kelp"

Disclaimer:
just to be sure, only kidding here folks, flushing is absurd nonsense with real living soil LOL


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## whodatnation (Aug 11, 2013)

I was a bit confused, lol. Honestly never even heard of giving plants coconut milk,,, so a double dose of confusion there.


Edit: high K and mineral content... Did not know that.


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## NickNasty (Aug 11, 2013)

whodatnation said:


> I was a bit confused, lol. Honestly never even heard of giving plants coconut milk,,, so a double dose of confusion there.
> 
> 
> Edit: high K and mineral content... Did not know that.


Not Coconut Milk, You give them Coconut Water


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## whodatnation (Aug 12, 2013)

Well thats what I was thinking, not sure why I called it milk.


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## Shwagbag (Aug 13, 2013)

whodatnation said:


> Well thats what I was thinking, not sure why I called it milk.


Because coconut milk is delicious!? lol


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## whodatnation (Aug 13, 2013)

Well its kinda shaped like a titty and is full of delicious juices.


btw thank you for clearing that up nick


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## HÃ¿dra (Sep 1, 2013)

Ill be making about 10-15 gallons of this soil to start a nice scrog here soon, stay tooned for my entre into real organics!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Sep 5, 2013)

Haven't been to this thread in a minute. Some ROLS bud pron..'Bright Moments'

View attachment 2806387


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## whodatnation (Sep 5, 2013)

Any notillers in here?


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## GreenSanta (Sep 7, 2013)

I thought most people here were no'tillers. I have come up with my own way of doing ROLS in small container. I described earlier in this thread. At harvest, I flip the container upside down, add 1/3 of my SS (eventually will be using compost) and put the what was in the container over top of that. I remove the stalk and whatever root comes with it and plant again. Trying not to disturb too much. I am on my third run doing this in some of my containers and everything is going well.


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## Mohican (Sep 7, 2013)

I like to leave the root hairs in the soil - seems to work  The TGA Jesus OG is in the onion soil from this spring/summer. A runner from the strawberries got started in there too 






It is sure getting frosty!








Cheers,
Mo


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 8, 2013)

I was learning up on IMO and Bokashi and I am sure this is already been answered somewhere but I am being lazy and want to just ask in the forum of ROLS for I believe it is relevant . My understanding IMO 1 is where you collect beneficial microbes from outside using food (half cook rice) as bait to collect the microbes. Then IMO 2 is taking that collection and essentially multiplying it by adding equal parts brown sugar or molasses and let it ferment for a couple of weeks then using to create a tea for watering with. 

So my question any reason I can't just bypass IMO 2 and amend IMO 1 right back into my soil especially when I am ready to transplant?


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## viewer1020 (Sep 9, 2013)

My understanding is that the first phase of the process collects a whole lot of random micro-organisms. The second phase doesn't just multiply them; it selects the ones which perform well in the conditions you provide (sugar-loving things in the case of molasses, or lacto-fermenting ones if you give them milk). You can also select for aerobic or anaerobic life with short or long fermentation times, and the use of air pumps or lids on vessels.

While you could skip the second step, you would be providing fewer organisms, and you might get a higher ratio of some sorts you don't want.


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## anomuumi (Sep 9, 2013)

Anyone that has had fusarium / verticilium wilt? Suggestions and all help really appreciated, first round of organics for me and this is something I really didn't prepare for. Half of vegging plants dead, one flowering plant almost dead and multiple infected ones flowering atm. I'm currently on second week of flowering and half of the girls look rough.

Plan is to hit whats still alive with foliar kelp extract (rose antifungal), aspirin (to induce SAR), potassium silicate 5ml/litre once a week with watering, LAB serum foliar and hope that I can drag the ladies to finish line. Yes, not fully organic approach, but I'm running out of ideas.

What to do after the round is done? Reamend with mycos and trichoderma or just ditch the soil? Even when I read that this is "impossible to get rid of", I'm still thinking my soil was just poor and plants would have fought this off if they would have been healthy from the start. Or am I completely wrong? I would hate to throw away all the goodies I mixed in, but dead plants are no good either. 

Thanks!


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 9, 2013)

viewer1020 said:


> My understanding is that the first phase of the process collects a whole lot of random micro-organisms. The second phase doesn't just multiply them; it selects the ones which perform well in the conditions you provide (sugar-loving things in the case of molasses, or lacto-fermenting ones if you give them milk). You can also select for aerobic or anaerobic life with short or long fermentation times, and the use of air pumps or lids on vessels.
> 
> While you could skip the second step, you would be providing fewer organisms, and you might get a higher ratio of some sorts you don't want.


wouldn't any microbes wanted or unwanted multiple as well or would the sugar loving ones simply overtake and nullify the others? What does short life fermentation produce verses long life. Are anaerobic that bad, wouldn't they go dormant or die if oxygen is added. 

I know bokashi composting is all about anaerobic fermentation and then that material is actually placed in the ground where it is open to air and the critters in the ground to munch on it. This compost would be good source then once completed correct? 

What are the signs of a higher ratio of microbes one does not want?


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 11, 2013)

Here is a working link to .pdf copies of "Teaming with Microbes" (http://ge.tt/9LYCbnC/v/1) and "Edible Forest Gardens Volume 2; Ecological Design & Practice for Temperate~Climate Permaculture" (http://ge.tt/9LYCbnC/v/2). All I did was Google search "Teaming with Microbes pdf" and it was available - wanted to let everyone here know as well. The second pdf seems like a gift for guerilla growers and gardeners. Good luck fellow growers


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## Kalyx (Sep 13, 2013)

> anomuumiAnyone that has had fusarium / verticilium wilt? Suggestions and all help really appreciated, first round of organics for me and this is something I really didn't prepare for. Half of vegging plants dead, one flowering plant almost dead and multiple infected ones flowering atm. I'm currently on second week of flowering and half of the girls look rough.​


I just had a serious issue that I thought was fusarium at first. Mine turned out to be hemp russet mites. If you are sure its fusarium I would not recommend reusing the soil as its a soil borne pathogen. Unless of course you want to fully sterilize it and then reamend and get it alive again. Starting fresh is probably cheaper and easier.

Just make sure its not russet mites bro. Take your tric scope and look at the damaged areas. Russet mites are microscopic have only 2 pairs of legs and more resemble a grub than a typical spider mite. They cause many similar and confusing symptoms as fungal pathogens. Took me forever to figure out what was going on in my and many other gardens all around me. Russet mites; all over the place. Now to solve the problem...


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## viewer1020 (Sep 14, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> wouldn't any microbes wanted or unwanted multiple as well or would the sugar loving ones simply overtake and nullify the others? What does short life fermentation produce verses long life. Are anaerobic that bad, wouldn't they go dormant or die if oxygen is added.
> 
> I know bokashi composting is all about anaerobic fermentation and then that material is actually placed in the ground where it is open to air and the critters in the ground to munch on it. This compost would be good source then once completed correct?
> 
> What are the signs of a higher ratio of microbes one does not want?


It's true that most microbes will multiply if you give them something to eat.

In cases where you want to maximize the ratio of one specific set (like when you want lacto-fermenters) then you can add just a teaspoon of your first brew to a large batch of the second feedstock; everything will multiply exponentially for a while, and the ones which perform best will have the sharpest exponential rise in population, so they will dominate the resulting brew.

Anaerobic decomposition is not bad. Organic farmers tend to avoid the random sort for several reasons:

- anaerobic decomposition by random organisms produces more methane.
- methane contains nitrogen, useful for plant growth when it was in the soil and not so useful when it escapes.
- methane is a more potent greenhouse gas than CO2.
- anaerobic decomposition is slow compared with aerobic.
- some anaerobic bacteria produce things which are toxic for humans (botulism).

However, the end product of the process (even the random sort) can be an excellent soil amendment. I believe the output of bokashi would be a great thing to include in a soil mix, and because it uses selected organisms, it doesn't have the problems listed above.

If you flood your soil with the "wrong" microbes, the chances are you're just going to fail to see the benefits you would see from adding good microbes. I guess there's a chance you could give the plants some disease or other problem, but if you've got a healthy soil ecosystem already, the existing balance should dominate over anything poured in from the top, good or bad.

I'm just learning about all this stuff myself, mostly from reading the ROLS threads around the various forums... seems a bit quiet in here so I'm just throwing in my perspective on the information I have until the more experienced growers turn their attention this way.


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## GreenSanta (Sep 14, 2013)

be careful with bokashi i heard if u use too much it will eat ur roots alive


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## Rrog (Sep 14, 2013)

Bokashi used in worm bins is consumed at warp speed. I find it a convenient countertop bucket. It's an addition to a thermal compost pile for me.


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## GreenSanta (Sep 14, 2013)

that's how i use mine, to speed up compost!!


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## anomuumi (Sep 14, 2013)

Kalyx said:


> I just had a serious issue that I thought was fusarium at first. Mine turned out to be hemp russet mites. If you are sure its fusarium I would not recommend reusing the soil as its a soil borne pathogen. Unless of course you want to fully sterilize it and then reamend and get it alive again. Starting fresh is probably cheaper and easier.
> 
> Just make sure its not russet mites bro. Take your tric scope and look at the damaged areas. Russet mites are microscopic have only 2 pairs of legs and more resemble a grub than a typical spider mite. They cause many similar and confusing symptoms as fungal pathogens. Took me forever to figure out what was going on in my and many other gardens all around me. Russet mites; all over the place. Now to solve the problem...


Cheers for the tip! I'll hit them with heat treatment for every few days and let you know if it did anything. 

Added 3 different beneficial fungal products, top dressed with EWC, lacto/EWC aeraeted tea's and foliars, silica, aspirin and so on.. Giving it everything I got.


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## hyroot (Sep 14, 2013)

Would watering and spraying fresh aloe Vera to an aloe Vera plant be considered a form of cannibalism? Who ever said fresh aloe is only good for 20 min was far wrong. I froze some aloe leaves chopped in pieces for few weeks. Then blended it with some Ro water. I Store it in the freezer. I've used it every day for the last 4 days. My plants are praying instantly after spraying. My outdoor too. Yesterday I used same batch for cloning.


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## Rrog (Sep 14, 2013)

Unfrozen fresh aloe oxidizes very fast...


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## viewer1020 (Sep 15, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> What does short life fermentation produce verses long life.


People looking to maximize aerobic bacteria will bubble the tea continuously, and use it in the range of about 24-48 hours after it began. 

Someone mentioned brewing for weeks, which will be anaerobic and stinking if not bubbled, and if you bubble for that long, the fast reproducers will have eaten all the sugar, and then the slower, stronger organisms will begin the dominate as they consume the dead. 

I can't remember the details, but people who use microscopes to look at the life in their teas tend not to like the things which they see after 48+ hours bubbling.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 15, 2013)

viewer1020 said:


> People looking to maximize aerobic bacteria will bubble the tea continuously, and use it in the range of about 24-48 hours after it began.
> 
> Someone mentioned brewing for weeks, which will be anaerobic and stinking if not bubbled, and if you bubble for that long, the fast reproducers will have eaten all the sugar, and then the slower, stronger organisms will begin the dominate as they consume the dead.
> 
> I can't remember the details, but people who use microscopes to look at the life in their teas tend not to like the things which they see after 48+ hours bubbling.


I agree with all of that. But DANK mentioned fermentation. That's an all together different process, with a much different objective. People ferment a number of plants/weeds and often do so for a couple weeks. The idea is not to multiply microbes like an ACT, but instead to use the fermented extract as a pesticide, fungicide, nutrient, etc.


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## Rrog (Sep 15, 2013)

I was intrigued by the fermented extracts, but am more excited about short-term bubbled teas. The longer term extractions lose some of the delicate molecules. Hormones, secondary metabolites, enzymes. Some of these are fleeting and the teas need to be used soon.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 15, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I was intrigued by the fermented extracts, but am more excited about short-term bubbled teas. The longer term extractions lose some of the delicate molecules. Hormones, secondary metabolites, enzymes. Some of these are fleeting and the teas need to be used soon.


I agree. I like the 24 hr bubble alfalfa/kelp one that you mentioned


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## Mohican (Sep 15, 2013)

I think the long soaks are better for silica extraction. I just compost those plants and let nature do all the work 


Here are a couple of plants enjoying the year old compost pile:






I had to put up a fence because something was digging into the pile at night and disturbing the plants.



Cheers, 
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 16, 2013)

Does anyone finely grind kelp and alfalfa meal before brewing or just let it go for a couple of days?


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## hyroot (Sep 16, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I think the long soaks are better for silica extraction. I just compost those plants and let nature do all the work
> 
> 
> Here are a couple of plants enjoying the year old compost pile:
> ...


it was probably a cat. They love digging up dirt next to a plant and sometimes the plant. Or at least my catdog does. My cat thinks he's a dog.


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## Snafu1236 (Sep 16, 2013)

A truly fantastic thread. Been following it for quite a while now but have not commented much.

I have not gone the ROLS method, but will be switching to it very soon after witnessing the results here.

Recently I have been on quite a journey into the LED field, and have been loving it. I plan on running exclusive ROLS with LED technology in the coming months, I will post some of my results in this thread as I progress.

Keep up the good organic work here.

-Snafu


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## Rrog (Sep 16, 2013)

Snafu- You will like the ROLS. Find me if you have any questions and I will do my best to help you with this, brother.


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## whodatnation (Sep 16, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Does anyone finely grind kelp and alfalfa meal before brewing or just let it go for a couple of days?



I usually just let it go, but dont see why grinding it up would hurt, would actually help I think.


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## hyroot (Sep 16, 2013)

Kelp meal is almost fine grain anyway. Alfalfa meal varies.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 16, 2013)

Is there a way to breed fungi on something besides roots and harvest it?! I read leaves are a great home for fungi and fall is right around the corner.


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## hyroot (Sep 16, 2013)

Just add some oats or oatmeal to a tea. Puree the oats prior to adding to tea. That promotes fungi growth. I do that during flower. The fungi regulates the amount of nitrogen plants can uptake. Imo it helps produce pretty big buds.

avocado peels and banana peels produce a good amount of fungi in my worm bin when they break down. I see white fuzz all over a few days later after adding them. I don't know if worms eat oats though..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 16, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Just add some oats or oatmeal to a tea. Puree the oats prior to adding to tea. That promotes fungi growth. I do that during flower. The fungi regulates the amount of nitrogen plants can uptake. Imo it helps produce pretty big buds.
> 
> avocado peels and banana peels produce a good amount of fungi in my worm bin when they break down. I see white fuzz all over a few days later after adding them. I don't know if worms eat oats though..


Thanks for quick response. It's my new traumatizing findings that tell me fungi is useless in teas!? The bacteria multiply much faster and "whoop", for lack of a better word, the fungi. Could I just take some ground up oats, put it on some of my happy frog soil conditioner, add a little woody compost, and wait for the fuzz? Also what do you do with the fuzzy stuff afterward?


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## hyroot (Sep 16, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Thanks for quick response. It's my new traumatizing findings that tell me fungi is useless in teas!? The bacteria multiply much faster and "whoop", for lack of a better word, the fungi. Could I just take some ground up oats, put it on some of my happy frog soil conditioner, add a little woody compost, and wait for the fuzz? Also what do you do with the fuzzy stuff afterward?


I've never added it to soil. So I can't really say. I'd imagine it would be ok. You could also add some fungi dominant compost to soil. From my experience. I prefer to have bacteria dominance during veg and fungi dominance during flower. 

if anyones opinions or experience differ. Please ring in. I've been doing rols for almost a year. I've been on a grow break for a while up until the past 10 days due to unfortunate circumstances. I've been doing teas for years. But since starting rols , that's when I had learned about and started doing specific regimented teas. As opposed to doing basic teas.


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## NickNasty (Sep 16, 2013)

Take your oat meal or if you have dogs/cats use ground up dry dog/cat food wet it down to where its moist but not super wet and let it sit in a tupperware with no lid or just barely on to keep it moist for a few days to a week and it will start to grow fungus and it will become a cake of fungus, break it up and add it to your tea or soil conditioner or compost < I would add it too the woody compost and top dress with it in flower.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 16, 2013)

My teas are very high in bacteria...they wouldn't dominate the fungi? How does fuzzy fungi do when wet ( picturing a cat in a bathtub)? What does it do as a dressing? I know it multiplies into a "pipeline" to the roots, so would it be better just to uproot/transplant and directly put on roots? Sorry for all the ?s I just like to know why and I love learning. You guys are really helping out so reps a coming your way.


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## Rrog (Sep 16, 2013)

MJ will select its own microbial profile. Being a grass, it will create bacterially dominated soil regardless of our efforts. IMHO, work on making good composts and tone down the teas. I know interesting teas are fun. Believe me. I loved chem labs. But the tea benefits are restricted to botanicals (alfalfa, seed sprout, etc) _for me_. (Opinion) 

Vermicompost is the biggest component here. Get bins and make your own. Make the best. Amend your compost as you would a new soil mix. It will be better than gold. Then lay that on your plants. You will escort your old bag of "Worm Castings" to the curb and not look back. Sucks to be #2 and all.

ALSO- Get a shovel-full of local soil from a clean grass field. Sounds like awful, even cruel advice, eh? NOT! BIMs, man. BIMs.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 16, 2013)

I have woods very close to me with tons of leafy black compost. Gonna have to get that shovel and duffel bag out eh. I had a DIY red wiggler worm bin that was awesome...but my dumbass forgot to put the lid on for a weekendI'll never forget that smell. And yes teas are very fun and I completely agree on the "black gold"! I'm just learning about all this fungi stuff and want to tinker. Thanks again guys. Keep it coming.


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## Rrog (Sep 16, 2013)

How about grassy fields. Ya got any nearby? That has the microbial profile you're looking for. Beneficial Indigenous Microbes. Better than in a jar


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 16, 2013)

*BIM *&#8203;BAM BOOM!!! Know what I'm doing tomorrow.


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## Rrog (Sep 17, 2013)

It's a big deal. A full embrace of the microbes.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 17, 2013)

viewer1020 said:


> People looking to maximize aerobic bacteria will bubble the tea continuously, and use it in the range of about 24-48 hours after it began.
> 
> Someone mentioned brewing for weeks, which will be anaerobic and stinking if not bubbled, and if you bubble for that long, the fast reproducers will have eaten all the sugar, and then the slower, stronger organisms will begin the dominate as they consume the dead.
> 
> I can't remember the details, but people who use microscopes to look at the life in their teas tend not to like the things which they see after 48+ hours bubbling.


Not to mention the smell of a tea that's gone too long is close but much worse than fresh liquid cow manure, and yes kids I smell said manure on the regular so im quite familiar with it! By far compost tea's that have gone TOO long are my kryptonite when it comes to that smell! whoa!


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> MJ will select its own microbial profile. Being a grass, it will create bacterially dominated soil regardless of our efforts. IMHO, work on making good composts and tone down the teas. I know interesting teas are fun. Believe me. I loved chem labs. But the tea benefits are restricted to botanicals (alfalfa, seed sprout, etc) _for me_. (Opinion)
> 
> Vermicompost is the biggest component here. Get bins and make your own. Make the best. Amend your compost as you would a new soil mix. It will be better than gold. Then lay that on your plants. You will escort your old bag of "Worm Castings" to the curb and not look back. Sucks to be #2 and all.
> 
> ALSO- Get a shovel-full of local soil from a clean grass field. Sounds like awful, even cruel advice, eh? NOT! BIMs, man. BIMs.


Actually This is a hell of a suggestion that only a fool would overlook! For fucks sake man the best of the best can be found in those clumps of soil! mother nature has been doing shit right for many moons before we got our hands on shit. just pay attention and you'd be amazed what you notice.


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## Rrog (Sep 17, 2013)

Like so many other things, we never appreciate the local talent.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Like so many other things, we never appreciate the local talent.


lmao, that's a plague in the united states right now Rrog! excellent point!


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## Rrog (Sep 17, 2013)

I think the concept of the BIM is powerful, yet due to our (manly) need to tweak everything, we always want to get a jar of some secret stuff.

Also- the older the soil gets, the more dialed in the microbial universe will be within the soil. We leave it in place and preserved = ROLS. In a few weeks the BIMs will start to dominate. They are after all, by definition, the top of their respective pyramids. They are the top performers for your area. They beat out all comers. And they're free, looking for a good home in a field near you.

So what's stopping you?


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## whodatnation (Sep 17, 2013)

Here's some good simple reading on fungal teas and teas in general.

http://www.compostjunkie.com/compost-tea-recipe.html


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 17, 2013)

How do BIM do in very heavy soil. I dug a foot deep in three grassy areas and got nothing but mostly clay. Would Happy Frog Soil Conditioner, EWC, and woody compost be a good enough substitute or should I just mix up the BIM clay with EWC?


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## Rrog (Sep 17, 2013)

Red- Is there any "topsoil" that you can shake loose from the grass? You don't want clay


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Red- Is there any "topsoil" that you can shake loose from the grass? You don't want clay


That's what I figured and no it's a big ol grey chunk. Here's whats in HFSC that I still have an abundance of. I also have red wiggler castings and an all organic mix that's been charging for about three months.


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## Rrog (Sep 17, 2013)

Wow... the soil there really sucks, eh? Well, no matter. You could always collect BIMs from that grassy area with rice water. I'd still see if there was some traces of brown dirt somewhere in your area LOL. 

Castings are great.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Wow... the soil there really sucks, eh? Well, no matter. You could always collect BIMs from that grassy area with rice water. I'd still see if there was some traces of brown dirt somewhere in your area LOL.
> 
> Castings are great.


My neighbor does have a nice lawn lol. There's a bunch of leaves and big oaks in the woods nearby so hopefully I can go BIM hunting tomorrow. In the meantime I cooked up some brown rice and added it to some of that HFSC. Thanks again for advice! Came across the rice water a couple of times...sounds interesting and NEW!!!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 17, 2013)

What's everyone's opinion on coco coir with organics?


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## Rrog (Sep 17, 2013)

I (me) personally prefer peat. More microbially active right out of the bag (verified by MM), and other valid reasons that I can't recall in my current haze


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 17, 2013)

From all I have read so far I know building your own soil from scratch is best when doing ROLS. If I have modified SS after a harvest would that be an acceptable base to start doing a ROLS? After a few more runs I would like to build from scratch, but the spent SS will be all I have access to for a while. Thanks for any help guys.

Also, do you guys use mycorrhizal products with ROLS or is it not needed?


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## Rrog (Sep 17, 2013)

No myco additives needed. It's already in there. Sure use the SS and run it for a while. Amend as you go. 

What are your thoughts on a nice tidy worm bin?


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## Mohican (Sep 17, 2013)

When I am done building the greenhouse I want to build a bigger and better worm bin! I love throwing garbage in one end and pulling gold out of the other


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## Mohican (Sep 17, 2013)

Do you ever get grubs in your compost pile? Every time I soak the pile the grubs come out.


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## whodatnation (Sep 17, 2013)

No grubs in my compost pile but they are in the old decomposing hay I add to the pile. They either end up leaving or cooking in there.

Im really slacking on getting my worm system going, been wanting to do it for over a year now! Just imagine I could have millions by now  I really like the idea of stackable trays that allow you to easily access finished castings with minimal disturbance to the lil wigglers.


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I (me) personally prefer peat. More microbially active right out of the bag (verified by MM), and other valid reasons that I can't recall in my current haze


Correct me if I am wrong Rrog, I thought I read too much coco fiber can break down and throw PH of balance? Anywise I understand rice hulls are a great neutral medium and give harbor to microbes and help in aeration and draining much better and as a replacement for perlite? Is this correct too?

I understand some "green" growers are going with less peat moss in respect to any gardening in that it supposedly is not a renewable resource in that the amount being consumed can not be replaced by nature at the current rate and if we continue there could be detrimental environmental impact. Again this I have been told have not verified but heard it a few times now and am somewhat sensitive to being a good steward and if I can use rice hulls or some other combination of organic neutral soil base I am all for that. But then again don't want to be inconvenienced for someone screaming the sky is falling.


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I (me) personally prefer peat. More microbially active right out of the bag (verified by MM), and other valid reasons that I can't recall in my current haze


Correct me if I am wrong Rrog, I thought I read too much coco fiber can break down and throw PH of balance? Anywise I understand rice hulls are a great neutral medium and give harbor to microbes and help in aeration and draining much better and as a replacement for perlite? Is this correct too?

I understand some "green" growers are going with less peat moss in respect to any gardening in that it supposedly is not a renewable resource in that the amount being consumed can not be replaced by nature at the current rate and if we continue there could be detrimental environmental impact. Again this I have been told have not verified but heard it a few times now and am somewhat sensitive to being a good steward and if I can use rice hulls or some other combination of organic neutral soil base I am all for that. But then again don't want to be inconvenienced for someone screaming the sky is falling.


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I think the concept of the BIM is powerful, yet due to our (manly) need to tweak everything, we always want to get a jar of some secret stuff.
> 
> Also- the older the soil gets, the more dialed in the microbial universe will be within the soil. We leave it in place and preserved = ROLS. In a few weeks the BIM will start to dominate. They are after all, by definition, the top of their respective pyramids. They are the top performers for your area. They beat out all comers. And they're free, looking for a good home in a field near you.
> 
> So what's stopping you?


Sorry for the interruption int the thread, perhaps someone can give me a post number to look at but I have a vague idea what ROLS is just popping in an out now I see BIMs? looks like something to do with introducing ROIL into natural environment to acquire more natural beneficial microbes? Perhaps I am reaching in my cursory reading on this. 

Thing is just finished using some SS and just need a cliff notes version on what I can do now to reinvigorate this soil so it is consider ROLS and ready to roll through new transplants ready for their next flowering cycling


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 17, 2013)

Rrog said:


> How about grassy fields. Ya got any nearby? That has the microbial profile you're looking for. Beneficial Indigenous Microbes. Better than in a jar


Isn;t this part of the Korean Japaneses IMO collection process or related technique? Why not just use the microbes I collected of my half cooked rice you told me not to use, I put that rice into grassy fields to collect it and you told me I may be putting bad microbes in there or someone did I will have to look back but now I am confused?


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## whodatnation (Sep 17, 2013)

Iv changed it just a tad. Basically just add more organic matter and allow it to digest. 

Three Little Birds 
RECIPE #4
Three Little Birds Method
40 gallons used soil
4 cups alfalfa meal
4 cups fish bone meal
4 cups kelp meal
2 cups oyster shell flour
30 pound bag of earthworm castings . . .
That&#8217;s the basic recipe . . .
However we also like to use
4 cups of Greensand
4 cups of Azomite
4 cups of crab meal

Also other various meals and guanos....







I think sometimes we can make this more complicated than it needs to be. I mean the best part about growing like this is because its simple,,,, dont overcomplicate it.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 18, 2013)

Rrog said:


> No myco additives needed. It's already in there. Sure use the SS and run it for a while. Amend as you go.
> 
> What are your thoughts on a nice tidy worm bin?


Thanks for your reply Rrog. I thought the modified SS looked great, and will probably do well for me for a run or two. I have done quite a bit of reading on how all the different natural elements work together. Love it. Can`t stop trying to find new shit to read lol! Then I found this ROLS thread and just seems to pull all I have read together. The no till part is genius. The mix sounds easier to make, less time to cook. Seems like less chance for nute burn. Cheaper. 

I have not done a lot of research on the worm bin thing, but does sound interesting. One question though, how do you collect the poop? lol Sorry for the "worm bin noob" questions. Do you just use the compost they live in or does it fall through a screen or something?


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## Mohican (Sep 18, 2013)

Basic way is bin with screens or flaps on the bottom. Add your cardboard and scraps and as they get broken down you collect the fine particles from the screen or opening on the bottom. Sides and top are screen also to let it breath and not cook. Size is 2 foot square. Just keep adding goodies in the top and collection plant food at the bottom. Need to have some tight screen so you don't get fruit flies and such.


I want to build one with an old fashioned hand massage vibrator mounted to the bottom. Collect goodness by turning on the vibrator and the good stuff shakes out of the bottom. I want to make mine ten feet long and two feet deep. Maybe add a couple rabbits above.


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## Mohican (Sep 18, 2013)

If you have a bug zapper light you can collect the cooked bugs and add them to your tea or directly to your soil. I was talking to a HI grower about this and he said every night he goes outside and there is a frog under his light eating all of the bug fries. I wonder if frog poop is good? Malawi mania


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## Rrog (Sep 18, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Isn;t this part of the Korean Japaneses IMO collection process or related technique? Why not just use the microbes I collected of my half cooked rice you told me not to use, I put that rice into grassy fields to collect it and you told me I may be putting bad microbes in there or someone did I will have to look back but now I am confused?


That wasn't me you're quoting. Collecting microbes with rice is something I've always advocated.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 18, 2013)

Rrog...have you tried the rice wash fermenting? Looks like a super cheap and natural way of compost starter and deodorizer! Lactic acid bacteria for pennies. No luck on the BIM hunt. Maybe I'm just a BIM BUM. Soil around here is cement. Just going to start my own compost bin. Gonna call it my BIM BIN.


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## Rrog (Sep 18, 2013)

Rice washes? Yep. for years. Highly recommended


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 18, 2013)

Rrog said:


> That wasn't me you're quoting. Collecting microbes with rice is something I've always advocated.


 Actually you like'd the following post to my question....


My understanding is that the first phase of the process collects a whole lot of random micro-organisms. The second phase doesn't just multiply them; it selects the ones which perform well in the conditions you provide (sugar-loving things in the case of molasses, or lacto-fermenting ones if you give them milk). You can also select for aerobic or anaerobic life with short or long fermentation times, and the use of air pumps or lids on vessels.

While you could skip the second step, you would be providing fewer organisms, and you might get a higher ratio of some sorts you don't want.​

Last edited by viewer1020; 09-09-2013 at 02:32 AM.​
Like
Rrog and Mohican like this.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 18, 2013)

So from what I have read here EWC`s from a worm bin are better quality than out of the bag. Obviously cheaper. Are they the same fine, granular type consistency or chunkier?


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 18, 2013)

Have 2 seedlings indoors, 2.5 gal container, in a cabinet less than 3'hx2'x2' using 3 CFL's 75w w/ clamp reflectors on each bulb. First time indoor grow; sowed 5 seeds and 4 germinated however lost 2 weaker seedlings to damping off unfortunately. The seeds were the free samples included in pack. Soil used is organic outdoor topsoil, unbaked, sourced from a backyard that has been left to succession for at least 5-7 years; weedy and local annual plant populations dominate small habitat. Recently amended the soil in the container through surface mulching by adding frozen organic cannabis fan leaves along with 1 whole organic browned banana peel; covered soil lightly on top. Plan on FIMing, topping, and possibly LSTing to maximize yield and canopy density in the small grow space allotted. Wondering how one should add molasses to the soil to boost beneficial microbial (bacterial) populations, and also wondering how one should introduce aloe vera plant cytoplasm/gel to benefit the plants. Replies will be greatly appreciated, as I am new to the RIU boards yet have some experience with plant ecology and am always looking to learn. Stay organic, think globally and act locally! Peace


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## Shwagbag (Sep 19, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> So from what I have read here EWC`s from a worm bin are better quality than out of the bag. Obviously cheaper. Are they the same fine, granular type consistency or chunkier?


The ones I pick up from the local place are less refined. Definitely chunkier, but if a person wanted to go to work on them they could. I layed mine out in the sun on a brown tarp for a couple of hours, it dried them to the point where they could be processed a bit more.


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## Rrog (Sep 19, 2013)

Your own EWC is better and here's why- Your product is actually Vermicompost. Not pure castings. Pure castings don't have nearly all the goodness of nearly-completed VC. Castings have generally been run through the worms several times, and this is like over-baking a cake. More processing than we want.

Plus commercial castings for sure aren't fed the diet that you would. So as good a product as bagged castings is, it's nothing compared to what you would make. You would make the best VC available.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 19, 2013)

Man only 48 hours into brown rice fungi cake and already seeing the fuzz!!!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 19, 2013)

Anyone have advice on growing with straight coco and all/mostly organic teas?! My soil isn't ready yet so I want to use what I have on hand. Rep for good advice...unless it's Rrog the rep hog lol.


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## jubiare (Sep 19, 2013)

Redcarpetmatches,

I personally have found that growing with coco as your main media is not trouble free at all. Peat + some coco = great


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## DANKSWAG (Sep 19, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Your own EWC is better and here's why- Your product is actually Vermicompost. Not pure castings. Pure castings don't have nearly all the goodness of nearly-completed VC. Castings have generally been run through the worms several times, and this is like over-baking a cake. More processing than we want.
> 
> Plus commercial castings for sure aren't fed the diet that you would. So as good a product as bagged castings is, it's nothing compared to what you would make. You would make the best VC available.


Hi Rrog,

Say couldn't one effectively obtain EWC using a hole in their back yard. I understand red wriggler is the best and I am willing to introduce them if there aren't that many native ones around. But here is my question by back yard, why would I need to build an bin above ground and try to keep it right temp environment. Should I not be able to somehow use the ground as my bin as a free range bin for my worms. My thinking is if the area in the ground is designated as a composting bin but with free access to all the critters in the soil, couldn't one maintain a hospitable natural bin using the ground some sort of tray collection buried a foot or two down with maybe a hand pump to pump casting fluid. Just trying to think how I can produce my own EWC using resources readily available and to ensure right enviroment why not build a bin what utilizes the ground which worms already live in...?


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 19, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Hi Rrog,
> 
> Say couldn't one effectively obtain EWC using a hole in their back yard. I understand red wriggler is the best and I am willing to introduce them if there aren't that many native ones around. But here is my question by back yard, why would I need to build an bin above ground and try to keep it right temp environment. Should I not be able to somehow use the ground as my bin as a free range bin for my worms. My thinking is if the area in the ground is designated as a composting bin but with free access to all the critters in the soil, couldn't one maintain a hospitable natural bin using the ground some sort of tray collection buried a foot or two down with maybe a hand pump to pump casting fluid. Just trying to think how I can produce my own EWC using resources readily available and to ensure right enviroment why not build a bin what utilizes the ground which worms already live in...?


You could most certainly pull something like that off, but you'd have to put some thought in to controlling predators (birds, raccoons,etc), and you also have to account for environmental factors. Your worm-bunker won't be very productive in sweltering summer heat, or cold winter temps. Indoors you can keep the elements as close to ideal as possible. It would be cool to try for sure though.


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 19, 2013)

What are some thoughts on sowing a couple pre-soaked (in h2o) seeds directly into the plants main and final container [2.5g], as the soil in that container is R.O.L.S.? The strain is Master Kush


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 19, 2013)

OrganicEcoGrow said:


> What are some thoughts on sowing a couple pre-soaked (in h2o) seeds directly into the plants main and final container [2.5g], as the soil in that container is R.O.L.S.? The strain is Master Kush


Nutes will run out quick in bloom with that size.


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

ROLS needs bigger pots. 15 gallon is a good starting size. You have less of a safety buffer with smaller pots. Gotta watch things more closely.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 20, 2013)

What and how much do you guys use for drainage/aeration? Since I'm cooking up some good BIM I'd like to know how to properly water my little precious microbes. I've always used 1/3 perlite mix with good results.


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

The traditional ROLS recipies generally have a 1/3 aeration, 1/3 humus, 1/3 peat ratio. Roughly. I have used the giant Perlite / giant Vermiculite route, and that works well, but I really like pumice and lava rock. Biochar acts as a smaller aeration amendment also.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 20, 2013)

Rrog said:


> The traditional ROLS recipies generally have a 1/3 aeration, 1/3 humus, 1/3 peat ratio. Roughly. I have used the giant Perlite / giant Vermiculite route, and that works well, but I really like pumice and lava rock. Biochar acts as a smaller aeration amendment also.


I watched a video on biochar the other day. Kewl stuff bro. Ever use rice hulls?


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

I have not. Looking into alternatives to Peat that are not finite. I'm no coco fan, so rice hulls looms as a candidate.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 20, 2013)

I'm going to experiment with 100% coco and organic teas. Prob gonna start a journal within a week. Fingers crossed.


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## Shwagbag (Sep 20, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I'm going to experiment with 100% coco and organic teas. Prob gonna start a journal within a week. Fingers crossed.


Please post a link here when you do, I would be interested in following. I haven't tried much with coco, seems like a lot of PH adjusting and I'm more of a pour it to her kind of guy when it comes to organics. I use super soil in 8 gallon containers and usually yield between 2-4 oz depending on veg times and genetics. 

I tried some Aurora Innovations coco with organics added on a small experimental scale and had no success given the difference in PH requirements for the substrate.


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## NickNasty (Sep 20, 2013)

I started using rice hulls I really like them and they are cheap another option I have been looking into is zeolite. I still have a ton of perlite in my soil but as it breaks down I have been adding rice hulls. Zeolite is interesting because its highly porous, houses microbes, absorbs heavy metals and has a high CEC. I have not used zeolite yet but it is something I am interested in.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 20, 2013)

Shwagbag said:


> Please post a link here when you do, I would be interested in following. I haven't tried much with coco, seems like a lot of PH adjusting and I'm more of a pour it to her kind of guy when it comes to organics. I use super soil in 8 gallon containers and usually yield between 2-4 oz depending on veg times and genetics.
> 
> I tried some Aurora Innovations coco with organics added on a small experimental scale and had no success given the difference in PH requirements for the substrate.


Only thing I'll add is some dolomite lime. If you keep your tea between 5.2-5.8 than you should be okay. We'll see in a week.


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> I started using rice hulls I really like them and they are cheap another option I have been looking into is zeolite. I still have a ton of perlite in my soil but as it breaks down I have been adding rice hulls. Zeolite is interesting because its highly porous, houses microbes, absorbs heavy metals and has a high CEC. I have not used zeolite yet but it is something I am interested in.


N2- Look at the pumice, maybe. I love it.


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## hyroot (Sep 20, 2013)

I emptied a bunch of pots of soil into totes. Instead of mixing compost and ewc. I just topdressed and watered them a little and threw the lids back on. Lazyness. I just don't want to use tall pots anymore. I liked them when I added new supersoil. They don't work to well with rols. The aerate so much. Water goes out the sides like air pots. I'm diggin the wider pots more for rols.


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

Best ROLS pot is fabric. Feel pretty strong about that


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## hyroot (Sep 20, 2013)

They are all fabric pots. The viagrowtm ones are tall pots. I got 8 smart pots from green coast last year on black Friday. Ordered root pouch ones from amazon a few months back. I may cut up the viagrows. And have a friend stitch them together for a bed or something.


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

Sweet!!!!!!


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## Mohican (Sep 20, 2013)

I opened my worm bin yesterday and had a shit load of some kind of mealy worms. Seems to be a beetle larva of some sort. I thought they had killed all of the worms so I was going to sift them out and cook the soil to get something out of it. I took a shovel full and it was almost all worms! It seems like it is OK but I am not sure what to do. Any suggestions?


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

Leave 'em. You'll have lots of helpers show up. Just have some Neem and Crab in there and you'll be fine.


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## NickNasty (Sep 20, 2013)

They might be meal worms. When I bought worms last time I also got a couple meal worms and some black soldier flies. The people who sell worms tend to produce/sell other types of worms for fishing, composting, reptiles, etc. The meal worms I picked out the soldier flies got fried by my bug zapper I got in the same room.


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 20, 2013)

Anyone know where is the best place to look for Red Wriggler worms, used in worm compost bins? I believe you could order them online, does anyone know any good sources? I'm going to use google to help as well, but wanted to post this question here in the hopes of getting some experienced input from fellow organic growers. Looking to start an organic worm compost bin for top-dressing/amending R.O.L.S. pots and boost overall soil fertility.


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## Rrog (Sep 20, 2013)

I've sent many to Uncle Jims. Worm bins with a nice video. He sells all sorts of worms, nice newsletter, and great support. That gets my $$


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 20, 2013)

OrganicEcoGrow said:


> Anyone know where is the best place to look for Red Wriggler worms, used in worm compost bins? I believe you could order them online, does anyone know any good sources? I'm going to use google to help as well, but wanted to post this question here in the hopes of getting some experienced input from fellow organic growers. Looking to start an organic worm compost bin for top-dressing/amending R.O.L.S. pots and boost overall soil fertility.


LOCAL BAIT SHOPS!!! I spent 20$ on 1000 red wigglers...nice to know if your receiving living worms too.


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 20, 2013)

Awesome, thank you guys and I'm heading to check the local bait shop tomorrow, hope they have them there. Grow on!


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 21, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I've sent many to Uncle Jims. Worm bins with a nice video. He sells all sorts of worms, nice newsletter, and great support. That gets my $$


Rrog - I just placed an order for 2000 worms and a worm friendly environment bin that Uncle Jim sells. I googled a coupon code and the top link I clicked provided me with a working coupon code, saving me about $7. Bring on the organic food scraps!


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 21, 2013)

Does anybody add red wriggler worms directly into their No Till R.O.L.S. container? I may try it


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## Rrog (Sep 21, 2013)

If it's a larger container, they'll stay in there. 15-20 gallons. Smaller and I've read stories of them going for a legless walk.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 21, 2013)

Well after four days my fungi cake is boomin. I'd say there's about a 1/4" layer of fuzz on just the top. Anyone recommend the most efficient way of using this? I'm going to transplant with it in 3 more days so I'll have even more. Should I transplant with the brown rice mix or just scrape it off the top? Maybe make a tea?! Any advice will be appreciated.


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## Rrog (Sep 21, 2013)

I'd just leave it be and use it.


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## NickNasty (Sep 21, 2013)

Break it up and top dress with some worm castings/compost


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 21, 2013)

What good they do as a top dressing? Don't you want them colonizing on the roots? Isn't that where they do work?


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## 'ome Grown (Sep 22, 2013)

I see some veganic growers posting in this thread...

Is there a vegan ROLS recipe you guys could let me in on? I'm thinking of getting some ROLS soil ready for intended use 7 months away.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Sep 22, 2013)

'ome Grown said:


> I see some veganic growers posting in this thread...
> 
> Is there a vegan ROLS recipe you guys could let me in on? I'm thinking of getting some ROLS soil ready for intended use 7 months away.


top dress with tofu


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## hyroot (Sep 22, 2013)

'ome Grown said:


> I see some veganic growers posting in this thread...
> 
> Is there a vegan ROLS recipe you guys could let me in on? I'm thinking of getting some ROLS soil ready for intended use 7 months away.


semi vegan. Most on here top dress with kelp meal, neem meal, rock dust (glacial or basalt) and crab meal. Of course vermicompost. Crab meal being the only animal product...


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## Rrog (Sep 22, 2013)

I like to topdress my VC with those goodies, then just topdress the plants with the super-VC. 

Hyroot- what are you subbing for fish / bone meals?


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## NickNasty (Sep 22, 2013)

When you top dress and water a lot of stuff will leach down into the soil also new roots will grow into the top dress


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## hyroot (Sep 22, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I like to topdress my VC with those goodies, then just topdress the plants with the super-VC.
> 
> Hyroot- what are you subbing for fish / bone meals?


I buy the Neptune brand crab meal. 3-4-0. A while ago cann told me kelp has phos. Barely if any. I later understood he meant its a phos accumulater and basalt has some phos and is phos accumulater also. Basalt I have to order. Glacial I can get locally.


I just put some fungified pureed oatmeal and pureed romaine lettuce spines and dried shredded canna leaves. Took a trader joes grocery bag. Shredded it and wet it and rang it out and covered with that in my bin yesterday. I don't like to use newspaper due to the bleach in most newspapers.

I recently started using weed mat as a lid for my bins. Its breathable and blocks out some light. I had some left over from a couple years ago when I used to do Soma style beds.


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## 'ome Grown (Sep 22, 2013)

Thanks for the replies!

This is copied and pasted from Rrog here



> *Pre-charge the biochar with N so it doesn't rob your soil of it initially.
> 
> Rather than a jar of inoculants of microbes the plant doesn't care about, consider a shovel-full of soil from a local clean grassy field. The microbes there will kick the jar microbe's ass.
> 
> ...


So for the base I can I use growstones and rice hulls? Along with the VC and peat.

How about the long term mineral and nutrient packages? There are different varieties of rock dusts available to me, as well as azomite, soft rock phosphate, fossilized sea bird guano (which I am happy to use). But how about a replacement for the crab meal, fish bone meal, fish meal etc? I've got some kelp meal which should be ok and some soybean meal...but nothing long term like oyster meal etc.


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 22, 2013)

I literally rose from the dead and read 125 pages of pure awesomeness, and to top it all of I was the 1600 like!!


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 22, 2013)

Anybody try top-dressing with some ocean beach sand? How about using sand mixed into a soil/potting mixture - does it promote increased aeration? prevent moisture from evaporating out of the soil when used as a topdress? I am considering putting down a fine surface layer of sand (sourced from Long Beach Island, New Jersey) on top of a R.O.L.S. pot, and following with a soil flush using distilled water to reduce salt accumulating in the soil horizon. I appreciate any and all input!


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 22, 2013)

'ome Grown said:


> Thanks for the replies!
> 
> This is copied and pasted from Rrog here
> 
> ...



Down To Earth makes a "Vegan Mix" that I've used before. I tried a few runs going vegan, and I wasn't confident that I had all of my bases covered so I added a few cups of that to be sure. Of all of the animal based products, the one that I caved on and now use is the crab shell meal. It is pretty nutrient rich (including P), but more important is the chitin it contains, and how that interacts with your soil microbiology and the plant.


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 22, 2013)

I will be going shopping tuesday, so this gives me a day to put my list of ingredients with the help of the community.
These are from my notes of 125 pages of this thread. plEase feel free to correct me, add, or even subtract ingredients from my list. 
(When i say more i mean more for my arsenal because i see these as important ingredients for no till
- more aloe
-aloe extract (powder or oil?or both?)
-more kelp (will be making my own extract)
-more alfalfa
-neem cake (can i add top dressing or tea?)
-barley seed
-dr bonners peppermint soap
-dutch white clover 
-more coco nut water
-coco extract (powder i believe?)
-tm-7 (can i use other humic acids?)
-dyna proteckt (.......... not sure how I feel about this, but I do know the benefits of silica)
-ful power ( is there others or "raw" ingrediants that i can make my own instead of bottle nutes?)

other items like jars for fermentation.. (any special or cool ones?)
more air stones
design vortex or constant air bubbles for more "structure" water. (blumats seem cool)

Have soo much more notes and questions but thats all for now...

Btw i do have the base mix for no till
i do have my own compost worm bin.... 

Please add anything or comments or thoughts thanks.
much love


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 22, 2013)

foreverfly .....

A few things. Be careful with the neem cake. I top dressed with that once, and burned the plants pretty good. I add it to my soil mix now and let it sit for 60 days, and haven't had an issue since. You can cross the coconut water from the list (unless you have access to fresh, young coconuts). Also, The TM-7 contains both humic and fulvic acid, so the Ful-Power is kinda optional, imo.

Best of luck!


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## viewer1020 (Sep 23, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Actually you like'd the following post to my question....
> 
> 
> My understanding is that the first phase of the process collects a whole lot of random micro-organisms. The second phase ...
> ​


I think I can explain the confusion.

My response above was in response to your question: 



> So my question any reason I can't just bypass IMO 2 and amend IMO 1 right back into my soil especially when I am ready to transplant?


I gave a description of the reasons why the process you were following might recommend a second phase fermentation; these can be worth doing.

I wasn't saying that collecting random local organisms and adding them to your soil would be likely to cause harm to your plants; in fact I said "if you've got a healthy soil ecosystem already, the existing balance should dominate over anything poured in from the top, good or bad".

Your plants can still benefit from adding these things; there are beneficial symbiotic relationships all over the place in the soil, and you might bring in a missing organism which allows something which was already there to be even more helpful.

If you want to add some rice from a microbe-collecting expedition to new soil, go right ahead.


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 23, 2013)

Anyone use sand in their ROLS mix?


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 23, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> I will be going shopping tuesday, so this gives me a day to put my list of ingredients with the help of the community.
> These are from my notes of 125 pages of this thread. plEase feel free to correct me, add, or even subtract ingredients from my list.
> (When i say more i mean more for my arsenal because i see these as important ingredients for no till
> - more aloe
> ...


A few things you may want to consider amending, mostly for mineral content... diatomaceous earth, glacial rock dust, granite dust, bentonite, french green clay, dolomitic lime, oyster shell, crab meal, expanded shale... 

Also...

Anybody know what this super soft, sandy layer is in my compost? All sorts of cool stuff has went into my compost (wood ash, local clay rich in granite, diatomite rock) and it hadn't been turned all summer. This stuff looks fucking awesome!


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## GreenSanta (Sep 23, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> Headtreep, I noticed from looking at your pictures that you are doing ROLS in small containers? Anyway, recently I thought of a way to do ROLS for small containers!
> 
> So I have 2 ROLS small containers going atm. One reason why this might work better for some people ( the small containers...) is not only for small space but for people who, like me, grow multiple strains all the time, it's way better when you can move your plants around.
> 
> ...


In case someone wants to know,

This technic is working pretty good so far, I am just trying it out with compost now but so far using fresh SS at the bottom and reusing what was in the container has saved me a lot of fresh promix and I have grown pretty nice plants, and also the plants seem to do better after transplant. I usually transplant and place them in the flower room the same day.


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 24, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> foreverfly .....
> 
> 
> A few things. Be careful with the neem cake. I top dressed with that once, and burned the plants pretty good. I add it to my soil mix now and let it sit for 60 days, and haven't had an issue since. You can cross the coconut water from the list (unless you have access to fresh, young coconuts). Also, The TM-7 contains both humic and fulvic acid, so the Ful-Power is kinda optional, imo.
> ...



thanks!!
will add neem cake to next batch, 60day cook
Will cross coco nut water 
will consider ful power if price is right.. 





boblawblah421 said:


> A few things you may want to consider amending, mostly for mineral content... diatomaceous earth, glacial rock dust, granite dust, bentonite, french green clay, dolomitic lime, oyster shell, crab meal, expanded



thanks fort he input, have all those ingredients and did add a tiny bit to my mix.

would those ingrediant mix well toghther as a topdress? or is that too heavy?
im aware that vermi is main top dress/no till ingrediant, but curious if i can mix some of these ingrediants along with my vermi? Over doing it?
updated list

- more aloe
-aloe extract (powder 200x ?)
-more kelp (will be making my own extract)
-more alfalfa
-neem cake
-barley seed
-dr bonners peppermint soap
-dutch white clover 
-coco extract
-tm-7
-ful power

anything else? Still got a couple hours?
thanks


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 24, 2013)

I'm never top-dressing in the traditional sense again. In my mind, all these ingredients are not for my plant, but for the microbes.

I'm just going to always have well aged compost, with all these amendments, at hand. That will be my topdress. Just a new layer of a fresh, thriving ecosystem.


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## Mohican (Sep 24, 2013)

Is there a good microbe for stopping PM?


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 24, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Is there a good microbe for stopping PM?



Never had PM, but have heard that a horsetail tea is effective at dealing with it.


https://forum.seeddepot.nl/showthread.php?1695-How-to-prevent-and-treat-powdery-mildew-with-horsetail-tea


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 24, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Is there a good microbe for stopping PM?


There sure is...

I'm not good with remembering scientific names, but it is most definitely found in a good compost tea.

There are also a number of plants the have a holistic approach to preventing PM. Page one of the ROLS thread. Earth Compound from Progress Earth contains everything you need to prevent PM, all in one, expensive bag. It has the microbes and the holistic plants.

If you're asking because it's an issue for you outside right now, it's too late. Better luck next time.


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## GreenSanta (Sep 24, 2013)

horsetail tea is good at preventing, and keep it from spreading, but u must improve ur environment first...


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2013)

All you really need is a good air exchange, intake and exhaust. You won't ever have pm due to environment.

make a lite neem solution. Or mix aloe Vera, lemon juice, and a drop of dish soap.

or compost tea foliar.


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## GandalfdaGreen (Sep 24, 2013)

Compost tea foliar for sure.


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 24, 2013)

What yall think about this silica? Its from RAW, suposeblly (according to homie in hydro store) yhey are in the process of becoming "omri" certified. Not too much info online about the company other then whats on the back label. .. Think it will get the job done? Not bad price for 12 bucks, makes 200 gallons (accordig to label..)


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 24, 2013)

It'll probably work, and possibly work well. 

I like diatomaceaous earth myself. It's like 80% silica, it's full of trace minerals, it kills bad bugs but not the good ones, and it's water soluble.


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 24, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> It'll probably work, and possibly work well.
> 
> I like diatomaceaous earth myself. It's like 80% silica, it's full of trace minerals, it kills bad bugs but not the good ones, and it's water soluble.


Thanks
Wish i added that in the list..


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## Mohican (Sep 24, 2013)

Went out to spray some neem on the PM and one of the blades on a leaf was soaking wet! Like somebody poured water on just that blade. It was pooled up. Have you ever seen this? No watering today, it was windy, dry, and 87 degrees! WTF?


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## hyroot (Sep 25, 2013)

I've been battling spider mites all week. They noticeable by spots on a few leaves but nothing beyond that. I'm to broke to ride the bus even. I found some diatomaceous earth chillin with my paint rollers. I didn't even know I still had a bag. I haven't uses it in 2 years. I tried some DE in a foliar. It got rid of them in 1 application. I tried a tea foliar and went as far as iso/oil/water. Nothing worked. The de foliar worked. Plus silica. Hehehe. I thought it wasn't soluble. When I tried it on gnats years ago. It just clumped up when it got wet. I guess the finer it is the better it worked. I've been trippin all week. I gave away all my pure spray green. I haven't had any bugs in a couple years. Pure spray green is the only other thing I know that works right away on spider mites.



edit:

holy hard nipples batman. Leaves are so f-Ing perky. Praying almost vertically. I'm going to make de foliar part of a weekly or bi-weekly regiment.. I'm on phone. I will post some pics later on today.

stay frosty


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## hyroot (Sep 25, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Went out to spray some neem on the PM and one of the blades on a leaf was soaking wet! Like somebody poured water on just that blade. It was pooled up. Have you ever seen this? No watering today, it was windy, dry, and 87 degrees! WTF?


add a couple drops of dish soap as an emulsifier. Or if you already have pro tekt that can be used as an emulsifier. Use about half as much neem as the directions say. So its not so oily.


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## NickNasty (Sep 25, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Went out to spray some neem on the PM and one of the blades on a leaf was soaking wet! Like somebody poured water on just that blade. It was pooled up. Have you ever seen this? No watering today, it was windy, dry, and 87 degrees! WTF?


If it had another leaf laying on top they persperate like we do and it will stay on the leaf if it had no air flow.


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## Mohican (Sep 25, 2013)

Nothing touching it. It is like the blade just flooded itself. Did it again today on a lower leaf. Weird shit


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## hyroot (Sep 25, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Nothing touching it. It is like the blade just flooded itself. Did it again today on a lower leaf. Weird shit


were the leaves flared up? A concave shape.


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## colocowboy (Sep 25, 2013)

I have seen transpiration like that, while your ambient temps may be in a lower range it's quite possible canopy temps get much higher. It's perfectly normal, you could probably use some more airflow though to prevent molds. Also you can get an IR thermometer for about 6 bucks at radio shack if your interested in canopy surface temps.


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## dirtyho1968 (Sep 26, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Is there a good microbe for stopping PM?


Fungal dominant teas work great for PM.
As a foliar spray...


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Sep 26, 2013)

Should a compost tea be diluted with H2O when being applied as a foliar spray or soil spray?


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## GandalfdaGreen (Sep 26, 2013)

I have been told to.


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## Mohican (Sep 26, 2013)

I tried lemon juice. So far it is working and no ill effects!


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 26, 2013)

OrganicEcoGrow said:


> Should a compost tea be diluted with H2O when being applied as a foliar spray or soil spray?


No need to dilute compost teas if they are prepared well. I'm not keen on any foliar during their day. A cool morning, right before lights are on, or the sun is up, is when I like to do my foliars.

Apparently if your tea is brewed in a clockwise vortex, bacterial colonization dominates the fungal. Counterclockwise apparently booms out a more fungal tea. I didn't bookmark the page I found this info, like a dumb shit, but it was a scholarly article from some university. Maybe Colorado. Maybe I hit the bowl too many times and switched the directions up. Hopefully not.

Anyways... Along with the direction of your vortex, you can encourage a more fungal tea by skipping the castings, and buying a bag of mushroom compost from Lowes. Better yet, find it locally. Now skip the kelp and molasses. If you have any mycorrhizal products laying around use them along with the mushroom compost. Feed the fungi some alfalfa, aloe/yucca, and oatmeal. 

When I want a more fungal based tea, I will take the mushroom compost, alfalfa, and ground oatmeal, and mix them all together. I then make sure it is damp, set it in a light proof bucket with the lid lightly set on top of it, and put it somewhere warm and dark. Come back in a couple days and you should see mycelium growing in your bucket.

After you've done this, and brewed your tea with your new mycelium cake and some aloe or yucca, for somewhere between 10-18 hours (the longer the brew, the more bacterial your tea will be), filter it with a paint strainer, or something of a similar micron size. Too small of a micron and you will filter out the fungi. The fungi actually grow in size in your tea, as opposed to the bacteria that reproduce.

Hit your ladies with this right before a slightly cooler morning, undiluted. Foliar or soil. They'll dig it.


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## Mohican (Sep 26, 2013)

Thanks! 

Did any of you see the article about how an antifungal foot cream kills HIV?


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 26, 2013)

I bet my compost tea kills HIV.

I did a flood and drain setup a while ago. It was all organic, but my soil recipe was far from where it should have been. I had way to much guano, bone meal, and a bunch off hot amendments in my soil, and did not let it cook for even a small period of time.

My results were on point though.

Ya know why?

I flooded it with compost tea every day, sometimes twice a day.

All that hot shit I had in my dirt just composted down.

Making sure you have 40+ gallons of healthy compost tea every day is a lot of work though.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 26, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I bet my compost tea kills HIV.
> 
> I did a flood and drain setup a while ago. It was all organic, but my soil recipe was far from where it should have been. I had way to much guano, bone meal, and a bunch off hot amendments in my soil, and did not let it cook for even a small period of time.
> 
> ...



40 gallons a day? 

Are you bathing in it?


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 26, 2013)

curious if anyone uses nectars? either feed or foliar? Blue agave nectar is abundant in nutrient. just not sure If its beneficial for plants..


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 26, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> curious if anyone uses nectars? either feed or foliar? Blue agave nectar is abundant in nutrient. just not sure If its beneficial for plants..


Might be a good carb source for microbes when brewing an ACT.


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## Mohican (Sep 26, 2013)

I put it in my coffee every morning


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 27, 2013)

Just salvaged 200+ gallons of soil from my guerilla grow this year. 

Freakin sweet.

Long night. I need a shower, and maybe another bowl of this Swiss Cheese.


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 27, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> 40 gallons a day?
> 
> Are you bathing in it?


The gals were drinking heavily, and compost tea for every watering was my saving grace. Also, flood and drain is about the least efficient method of irrigation, as far as water/nutrient consumption go that is. My yield was outstanding. That shit tasted like a grape jolly rancher, and weighed in right under 2.5lbs per 1000w.

By the way... I know not of this "bathing" thing in which you speak of. Is that like when I wipe the dirt off my hands onto my pants?


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 29, 2013)

I just bought a shot glass of dutch white clover seeds for 4.50, was curious if anyone grows this and collects seeds?


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 29, 2013)

Hey guys I have some questions about aloe gel. I just got some Lily of the desert aloe vera gel. I sprayed leaves and soil drenched @ 2tbsp per gallon water.

Just went back through and was reading this thread again from beginning and read something that has me worried. I read to not use aloe that has potassium sorbate because that is bad for MJ. My aloe has this. Same brand mentioned in post I read. (somewhere on first few pages) Is it flat out bad to use on MJ? Or just not as good as aloe without potassium sorbate? If it`s all bad I will switch to a brand without the potassium sorbate, or just get fresh aloe plants. They were already looking pretty damn healthy before I used this stuff...will they still be ok, or will it give me problems?

Does anyone know why the sorbate is bad?


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 29, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Some products I use:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I grow a couple different species of aloe, I'd suggest Japanese aloes to foliar feed with. They are hearty and will reward you back!


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 29, 2013)

i attempted to show you some pictures but for some odd reason I CANNOT upload or see anyone's thumbnails weird shit mang!


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## jcmjrt (Sep 29, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> Does anyone know why the sorbate is bad?


Potassium sorbate is used as a preservative - particularly against mold and yeast. It can be an irritant to eyes and the respiratory system. I can't answer how bad it is in the concentration in your aloe, and one application (which you will probably end up washing off with other foliar sprays as time progresses) probably is nothing to worry about since it is generally considered safe for consumption (but that's ingestion in food and I don't know of studies on smoking)...but I wouldn't want to continue its usage because of how it might affect me when I smoke the buds vice how it might affect the plants for growth. I have no experience on how it affects plant growth.


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## Nizza (Sep 29, 2013)

yeah for some reason i'm having picture issues today , lots aren't showing up idk, some do... Favorited that horsetail tea piece and love all this great info on here....
I want to work on a list of things with links of where i'm going to get them from, and see what everyones input is on these things, and what I may be missing/not needed. I will hopefully be on a strict budget (i love paying a lil extra for a kick) and I've been working on my compost pile outside where I dump all my old Coco + perlite..
question, i know coco turns from an inert-like substance to an organic that can be broken down...
how would this coco be effecting my compost pile?? (compost pile is years of old grass clippings, really really long time ago dog poo in the clippings, leaves, old garden plants, alot of vegetables, some fruit, very little meats/bones, and a shit ton of oyster shell for a pH buffer which need to be smashed up when i'm ready.. i think)
I also plan on saving up egg shells for the compost and stuff and I'd like to grow some aloe in my windows this winter... any advice on indoor aloe?

holy crud looks like RUI finally added in security things to stop the spammers!!!!!!!!!

also have access to lots of black gold (leaf/horsepoo compost)

freakin love this thread people, keep it up!!


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 29, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> Hey guys I have some questions about aloe gel. I just got some Lily of the desert aloe vera gel. I sprayed leaves and soil drenched @ 2tbsp per gallon water.
> 
> Just went back through and was reading this thread again from beginning and read something that has me worried. I read to not use aloe that has potassium sorbate because that is bad for MJ. My aloe has this. Same brand mentioned in post I read. (somewhere on first few pages) Is it flat out bad to use on MJ? Or just not as good as aloe without potassium sorbate? If it`s all bad I will switch to a brand without the potassium sorbate, or just get fresh aloe plants. They were already looking pretty damn healthy before I used this stuff...will they still be ok, or will it give me problems?
> 
> Does anyone know why the sorbate is bad?


This was being discussed on another forum. In short, when potassium sorbate is added to water it breaks down in to sorbic acid which is anti-microbial. IOW, bad for the beneficial microbes in our soil that we rely on to work for our plants. Be leery of most chemical preservatives, as their primary function is to inhibit the growth of bacteria, fungi, etc (the things we want to flourish, not repress).


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 29, 2013)

Nizza said:


> yeah for some reason i'm having picture issues today , lots aren't showing up idk, some do... Favorited that horsetail tea piece and love all this great info on here....
> I want to work on a list of things with links of where i'm going to get them from, and see what everyones input is on these things, and what I may be missing/not needed. I will hopefully be on a strict budget (i love paying a lil extra for a kick) and I've been working on my compost pile outside where I dump all my old Coco + perlite..
> question, i know coco turns from an inert-like substance to an organic that can be broken down...
> how would this coco be effecting my compost pile?? (compost pile is years of old grass clippings, really really long time ago dog poo in the clippings, leaves, old garden plants, alot of vegetables, some fruit, very little meats/bones, and a shit ton of oyster shell for a pH buffer which need to be smashed up when i'm ready.. i think)
> ...


I have a decent amount of coco in my compost pile. So far I see no ill effects.

If you plan on using much of your aloe plant, I would recommend supplementing a little light. I have had a small aloe plant sitting in a southern facing window that hasn't really grown in over a year. My beast of an aloe plant is about to get split up into a few smart pots and brought inside under some quantum T5's for the winter. That'll keep them booming.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 29, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> This was being discussed on another forum. In short, when potassium sorbate is added to water it breaks down in to sorbic acid which is anti-microbial. IOW, bad for the beneficial microbes in our soil that we rely on to work for our plants. Be leery of most chemical preservatives, as their primary function is to inhibit the growth of bacteria, fungi, etc (the things we want to flourish, not repress).[/QUOT
> 
> This aloe gel was purchased from a health food store. It says 99% organic on the label. Also has a few "certified organic" badges. It says the potassium sorbate is a mold inhibitor. I didnt just foliar spray, I also drenched the soil pretty good. So now I`m freaking out worried about my micro life.
> 
> I don`t know if this is good, bad, or indifferent... but when I look into the bottle there is a thick bubbly foam on top. Kinda looks like the good foam that you see on top in a tea brewing for plants. Does not have a chemical smell, and does not smell like hand lotion. Just smells really clean and pure.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 29, 2013)

I wouldn't sweat it. Maybe just run some water through your soil for a couple feedings, then apply an ACT or top dress with some EWC. I'm sure you'll be fine.


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## Mohican (Sep 29, 2013)

I am sure it is at a low enough level that it won't kill your beneficial microbes.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 29, 2013)

Cool thanks man. Is there a certain brand of aloe gel that does not have the sorbate? Or should I just play it safe and invest in some aloe plants?


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## Mohican (Sep 29, 2013)

Here is my Holy Smoke Mulanje Gold Landrace #2 growing in the compost pile - not a single burnt tip and no deficiencies. When I water it does not even puddle - just soaks right in. This soil was originally like concrete (clay). After a year of draining from the Big Clone in the trashcan and another year of compost pile it is a much more active soil 








There is a melon growing in there too:








Cheers, 
Mo


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 29, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> Cool thanks man. Is there a certain brand of aloe gel that does not have the sorbate? Or should I just play it safe and invest in some aloe plants?


An aloe plant is the best way, imo. A lot of people use the 200x freeze dried aloe as well from here: https://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/blogs/index.php/aloe-vera-in-products?blog=1


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 29, 2013)

Thanks for the info man. The whole plant does seem like the safest way. I think the powder makes more sense if dollars are an issue, but here is a paragraph from above link that makes me worry about the powder too:



Saponins:: These soapy substances form about 3% of the Aloe Vera gel and are capable of cleansing, having antiseptic properties. These act powerfully as anti-microbials against bacteria, viruses, fungi and yeasts.

Maybe I`m worrying for nothing if this is also in the whole plant.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 29, 2013)

Just did some more reading up on the plant as a whole. The saponins are in the plant as well. along with a shit ton of good stuff though...20 different amino acids, and a bunch of vitamins and minerals. Maybe the good out weighs the bad??


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## boblawblah421 (Sep 30, 2013)

I just did a coconut water foliar. Anybody have any reason why this may have been a bad idea?


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 30, 2013)

If you can grab some local Japanese aloe you'd be a happy farmer, either outside or in the growroom under the hps they thrive and will provide you with loads of fronds to use in many applications. If you have trouble I may be able to send you 4-5 babies. I have too many according to my wife. I am a as long as its alive im keeping it farmer lol. I will part with a few babies though. I gave a dozen away at my local farmers market this spring!


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 30, 2013)

Thanks VTM. If I can`t find any Japanese aloe I may take you up on the offer. But if your "where drinking water is safe" I can`t imagine your close to me, my drinking water is super shitty lol There are a few greenhouses where I live, I will go see what species they have.


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## alien mushroomhead (Sep 30, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I just did a coconut water foliar. Anybody have any reason why this may have been a bad idea?


Have not used it yet myself, but I don`t think it`s harmful. I plan to just use it in the soil though. I think it was cann, headtreep or rrog that said it has no benefit for foliar, but is great for a soil drench.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 30, 2013)

alien: You're fine with the aloe. I wouldn't be concerned at all with what you did. One feeding is fine. The fresh aloe, or the freeze dried aloe is beneficial for your plants. Many people have been using it (myself included) with nothing but positive effects. 

Boblaw: The enzymes are what we're after in coconut juice. As with aloe, fresh is best. Bottled coconut juice often times doesn't contain any preservatives, but in order to pass FDA regulations they have to heat the coconut water to 165 degrees (don't quote me on that temp) which renders useless the beneficial enzymes. Fresh, young coconuts are what you want. Asian markets or other specialty markets carry these. Should be $2 or $3 out the door. A decent sized young coconut should yield 1-2 cups of water. You can also dig the meat out of it and toss it in your worm bin.


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## Staink (Sep 30, 2013)

Woop woop. That is a big bitch. Nice one!!!


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## Staink (Sep 30, 2013)

Whooooooweeee this is what I'm talking about. Nice plant!!



Mohican said:


> Here is one Malawi Gold girl in a 30 gallon galvanized trashcan with a bamboo skirt:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 30, 2013)

^Damn Mo, that looks like a set of antlers!^

You should have that root-ball mounted


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 30, 2013)

Botanical questions. ive been searching like crazy for horsetail, comfrey, and stinging nettle, all of which I cannot find, is it worth buying online by the bulk? is any of these plants still good to use if powdered? check this website, thinking about trying it. obviously is best and cheaper to go out and collect it, but due to some circumstances thinking about buying it in bulk for now....https://www.starwest-botanicals.com/_search.php?page=1&q=nettle


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## NickNasty (Oct 1, 2013)

I add nettle and comfrey to my soil but I cook my soil after each round. Here is where I get mine. http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/ I think its cheaper then your link. I also add it to my compost. I have stinging nettle seeds and a few bocking 14 comfrey plants but they just went into the soil a few months ago. It says your in California search for permaculture on google around your area you may find some people around there growing tons of the stuff. I know I found a ton of horsetail growing by a pond on a frisbee golf course here in Michigan. Remember nettle and comfrey have a high npk so it doesnt take all that much and if using it in teas it can burn your plants if not diluted.


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 1, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> I add nettle and comfrey to my soil but I cook my soil after each round. Here is where I get mine. http://www.mountainroseherbs.com/ I think its cheaper then your link. I also add it to my compost. I have stinging nettle seeds and a few bocking 14 comfrey plants but they just went into the soil a few months ago. It says your in California search for permaculture on google around your area you may find some people around there growing tons of the stuff. I know I found a ton of horsetail growing by a pond on a frisbee golf course here in Michigan. Remember nettle and comfrey have a high npk so it doesnt take all that much and if using it in teas it can burn your plants if not diluted.


 nnice it is much cheaper and a cool website, thanks!!! I do have connections to some permaculture farms, so ill be giving that a try soon. but for now I do want to purchase my own and try to grow my own. do u use the pwder form or dried leaves? or anyone? thanks


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Oct 1, 2013)

Small scale first time indoor grow using ROLS methodology & K.I.S.S. philosophy. Topdressing using some broken up cannabis stems along with some moss and topsoil from an ecological preserve. A couple weeks ago before the Master Kush seedlings sprouted, I used a whole peel from an organic banana to layer around the outside of the container surface and then covered it with soil - ideally the decomposing peel will act as a reservoir pool of organic carbon, nitrogen, potassium, and some trace elements throughout the entire grow cycle. Thoughts? View attachment 2842684


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## NickNasty (Oct 1, 2013)

I use dry leaves because I want a slower release. Eco grow I have added banana peel meal to my worm castings in flower before but I didn't see much difference but I didn't add a lot and I already have a ton of stuff in my soil. But if anybody wants to learn to make it you just dry banana peels in a food dehydrator or in an oven at under 200 degrees for a few hours and when it gets crispy but not burnt you take it out and run it thru a food processor. It's cool to have around but normally I just add my peels to the compost.


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## May11th (Oct 1, 2013)

Organic ego grower- excuse me if im incorrect but my gut says that if you stick raw materials into your garden then your doing more harm and good only because that peel will prob never break down during that 4 month process indoors, may cause root rot, ive read it from a well known siurce to never stick raw decompositing matter in your soil, get yourself a worm bin though and feed them critters and theyll feed your plants and you. Peace out guys and grrat thread, using these methods and happy to see my plants are feeling it as well. Adios


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## 808HI (Oct 3, 2013)

How far along in flower can u apply aloe. I got a few plants 3.5 weeks into flower. Can still use aloe? Great thread by the way. Shoots, alojahz.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 3, 2013)

aloha 808, 802 here lmao. I use Japanese aloe up to week 6 of flower with foliars, while I ahvent done any spraying right up to week 8-9-10 I figure anything at that point is in the plants hands by the late flowering stage. I may be wrong, but that's the beauty of roll it up if I am someone will point it out quickly. My advice is to feel free to use them up until week6-7.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 3, 2013)

Staink said:


> Whooooooweeee this is what I'm talking about. Nice plant!!


 Ive trimmed a lot of shit im my years as an arborist, now that thing has me intimidated! Beautiful tree mo. Mom says Malawi gold is some of the finest smoke from her youth, and mom KNOWS her smoke! Lucky man!


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## Mohican (Oct 3, 2013)

I still have some left if she wants some. Are you in SoCal? It grew very big last year 




















Cheers, 
Mo


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 3, 2013)

That's a big bush! You could build a tree-house in that thing


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 4, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's a big bush! You could build a tree-house in that thing


i would never get high in a tree house...splat.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 4, 2013)

Do you guys remove roots out of your used soil or just leave em???


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 4, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Do you guys remove roots out of your used soil or just leave em???


I've been leaving them in. I haven't done a no-till, but obviously with that the entire rootball is left in the container, and a new cut is put right back in there.

I've just been dumping my containers out on to a tarp, re-ammending, and putting it in to a container to sit for a few weeks ..... then back in to a bucket with a new clone. Works like a charm.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 4, 2013)

I'm wondering if the roots would help with fungi. I just amended and added some ACT. I remember your tip about LESS molasses and fish hydrolysate. I'll do that for a 2nd ACT.


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 4, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I'm wondering if the roots would help with fungi. I just amended and added some ACT. I remember your tip about LESS molasses and fish hydrolysate. I'll do that for a 2nd ACT.


I've posted this link a couple times, but in case you missed it .....

http://microbeorganics.com/


He's really knowledgeable on the subject, and has some good recipes and pointers on his site.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 4, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've posted this link a couple times, but in case you missed it .....
> 
> http://microbeorganics.com/
> 
> ...


Great now I need a microscope. Fun stuff and great article. I knew that soft rock phosphate was helping lol.


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## hyroot (Oct 4, 2013)

Red. the roots break down. the microbes and enzymes feed on the roots.. That is why when the plant is pulled you want to topdress with compost and castings and water the pot with teas for a few weeks before replanting. after that much time the roots will be gone.

I have figured out a much simpler way of using fresh aloe for clones.. Take the leaves and let the sap drain for a little while. Then cut the tip of the leaf. Squeeze the leave enough to break the cellulose and loosen the gel. Not too much. You want the gel to stay in the leaf. Once the gel is loosened up. Just dip the cutting in the leaf. The gel comes off much easier and stays with the cutting rather than fileting the leaf.


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## cc2012 (Oct 5, 2013)

OOooh man I'm drooling!!


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## SpliffAndMyLady (Oct 5, 2013)

No foilars during bud unless you have to..PM,mites,ect..Just soil drench with the Aloe in flower. Better results with soil drenching too.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 5, 2013)

Do you guys mix DE in soil or just top dress? I currently use ProTekt, but it'll run out soon and I need a cheaper more organic option. Don't mind the whole bug shredding thing either. Also, I have hydroton laying around...would you mix this with soil? I already have 20-25% perlite. Thnx in advance MFers!


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 5, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Do you guys mix DE in soil or just top dress? I currently use ProTekt, but it'll run out soon and I need a cheaper more organic option. Don't mind the whole bug shredding thing either. Also, I have hydroton laying around...would you mix this with soil? I already have 20-25% perlite. Thnx in advance MFers!


Yes on both. You can mix the DE in your soil as a source of Si, and the hydroton can be used for aeration. I used some old hydroton I had laying around too. Diversity is a good thing. You can go up to 1/3 of your base being aeration materials.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 5, 2013)

I'd like to try those air pots but Damn, I could buy some great genetics with that dough!


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## whodatnation (Oct 5, 2013)

I also use hydroton in my soil, old dwc days, I rinsed all those residual salts off first though.


Also, I read DEs byg shredding capabilities were hampered once it got wet... True?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 5, 2013)

whodatnation said:


> I also use hydroton in my soil, old dwc days, I rinsed all those residual salts off first though.
> 
> 
> Also, I read DEs byg shredding capabilities were hampered once it got wet... True?


No XP when it comes to DE, but does it get soggy?! If not then I don't see a prob.


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## alien mushroomhead (Oct 6, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yes on both. You can mix the DE in your soil as a source of Si, and the hydroton can be used for aeration. I used some old hydroton I had laying around too. Diversity is a good thing. You can go up to 1/3 of your base being aeration materials.


I just got a bag of DE. It`s Red Lake Earth brand, with Calcium Bentonite. Food chemical codex grade. Powder, omri listed. Just wondering if this type would work well for the girls? The main thing I am after from it is the Si. I have read one of the most available forms of Si is in DE.

Would it be safe to sprinkle some before every watering? Was thinking around half a cup per 5 gallon pot, on top of soil and water in. If anyone thinks that`s too much/ not enough, please let me know.


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## NickNasty (Oct 6, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I'd like to try those air pots but Damn, I could buy some great genetics with that dough!


Are you talking actual air pots or fabric pots. You can get fabric pots called root pouches fairly cheap 
56.00 for 10, 15gal pots
http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/root-pouch-boxer-brown-fabric-pot-longest-lifespan/containers


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 6, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Are you talking actual air pots or fabric pots. You can get fabric pots called root pouches fairly cheap
> 56.00 for 10, 15gal pots
> http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/root-pouch-boxer-brown-fabric-pot-longest-lifespan/containers


I was referring to the air pots. I wonder if they're better than fabric pots which I already have. Also wonder if drilling holes in a plastic pot would be as effective.


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## hyroot (Oct 6, 2013)

Grow bags and poke holes with a screw driver. It will take forever. But you will get an idea of what its like. If you don't like it only a couple dol wasted. I like fabric pots more. Root pouch and smart pot brand are what I have. I have viagrowtm too bit I don't like them anymore.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 6, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Grow bags and poke holes with a screw driver. It will take forever. But you will get an idea of what its like. If you don't like it only a couple dol wasted. I like fabric pots more. Root pouch and smart pot brand are what I have. I have viagrowtm too bit I don't like them anymore.


i already have 50 two gallon grow bags...didn't even think of them. Have you tried the air pots?


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## hyroot (Oct 6, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> i already have 50 two gallon grow bags...didn't even think of them. Have you tried the air pots?


just used 2 gal airpots for veg. I don't like them. No matter how slow you pour. Water still goes out the holes. Then there's dry spots in the soil.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 6, 2013)

i am still not sold on smart pots... my plants in 7gals nursery plastic containers usually yield better! and i dont have to water them so often


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## lilroach (Oct 6, 2013)

I use both smart-pots and 5 gal buckets (with holes drilled) and after numerous grows cannot say that the smart-pots do any better than the buckets. The one thing I like about smart pots is that they're pliable and fit in tight spots better than buckets.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 6, 2013)

hyroot said:


> just used 2 gal airpots for veg. I don't like them. No matter how slow you pour. Water still goes out the holes. Then there's dry spots in the soil.


Well that's a deal breaker. Thanks for saving me 100$.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 6, 2013)

lilroach said:


> I use both smart-pots and 5 gal buckets (with holes drilled) and after numerous grows cannot say that the smart-pots do any better than the buckets. The one thing I like about smart pots is that they're pliable and fit in tight spots better than buckets.


Welcome to the dark side! Might get shunned with MG in your sig lol. Let us know when you start cookin some soil.


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Oct 6, 2013)

You would think fabric pots would allow air to penetrate into the medium better then a plastic pot. Air pots are not fun though...Dislike due to water spilling everywhere and when the plants roots reach the bottom it seems like no matter how much water you pour you never soak the whole thing! just my experience though!


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## Mohican (Oct 6, 2013)

My smart pot ladies outperformed my 5 gallon bucket girls by almost double. Same SS but they seemed to like having more air. No matter how many drain holes I drill the plastic buckets always have soggy soil in the bottom. 

I have noticed that cannabis does not like having wet roots. I have wilted many plants and they just bounced back harder when I watered them again.


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## hyroot (Oct 6, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Well that's a deal breaker. Thanks for saving me 100$.


they probably work good with hydro, flood n drain or whatever


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## boblawblah421 (Oct 6, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Do you guys mix DE in soil or just top dress? I currently use ProTekt, but it'll run out soon and I need a cheaper more organic option. Don't mind the whole bug shredding thing either. Also, I have hydroton laying around...would you mix this with soil? I already have 20-25% perlite. Thnx in advance MFers!


I personally use about 1/4 cup of DE per cubic foot. It has so many benefits, but too much will kill worms.



alien mushroomhead said:


> I just got a bag of DE. It`s Red Lake Earth brand, with Calcium Bentonite. Food chemical codex grade. Powder, omri listed. Just wondering if this type would work well for the girls? The main thing I am after from it is the Si. I have read one of the most available forms of Si is in DE.
> 
> Would it be safe to sprinkle some before every watering? Was thinking around half a cup per 5 gallon pot, on top of soil and water in. If anyone thinks that`s too much/ not enough, please let me know.


I might have to look into that product, because I use DE and calcium bentonite. The bentonite is a great mineral source, and acts as a magnet to any toxins that may be in your soil.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 6, 2013)

You don't top dress for creepy crawlers or do you just rely on neem?


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## hyroot (Oct 6, 2013)

Top dress some homemade compost on the soil. Creepy crawlers no like. Any predatory mites that may be in there will gobble them up too.


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## Shwagbag (Oct 6, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Top dress some homemade compost on the soil. Creepy crawlers no like. Any predatory mites that may be in there will gobble them up too.


I agree! I just use worm castings. They get nice and crusty between waterings so the gnats are SOL. Plus a top dress of compost or vermicompost never hurt plant health anyways right?!


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## alien mushroomhead (Oct 6, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I personally use about 1/4 cup of DE per cubic foot. It has so many benefits, but too much will kill worms.
> 
> 
> 
> I might have to look into that product, because I use DE and calcium bentonite. The bentonite is a great mineral source, and acts as a magnet to any toxins that may be in your soil.


Yeah, I read up on the calcium bentonite and seems to be good stuff. They also have an agricultural version, but without the bentonite.

If the Si is as available as this stuff claims, I will be a happy guy. Would like to get all fancy with the liquid Silicon but the DE is all I have available at the moment.

Have not gone full ROLS yet, but my young ladies in veg are in good quality organic soil. 
My cuts from those I plan on doing this way and I need to know if I should incorporate the DE in the ROLS mix, or leave it out?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 6, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> Yeah, I read up on the calcium bentonite and seems to be good stuff. They also have an agricultural version, but without the bentonite.
> 
> If the Si is as available as this stuff claims, I will be a happy guy. Would like to get all fancy with the liquid Silicon but the DE is all I have available at the moment.
> 
> ...


It's hard to get away from the ProTekt. Great product that wont break your pockets. I just like the thought of shredding bugs while getting enough Si.


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## alien mushroomhead (Oct 7, 2013)

DE also has 15 trace minerals.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 7, 2013)

alien mushroomhead said:


> DE also has 15 trace minerals.


YES!!! So is the consensus for Si DE? I know ProTekt is amazing and doesn't kill your bennie babies "snort". Horsetail I'd have to grow or go picking...pfft. But DE is a natural mineral that provides and shreds those flying fuckers up! Think I'm sold on DE...thnx geniuses!!!


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## alien mushroomhead (Oct 7, 2013)

Less than 14 dollars for a 20 lb. bag. Kills many household pest too. Rub it into your pets fur to help get rid of fleas. Food grade is even safe for human consumption, and has a ton of benefits for us too! I was putting a layer on top of my soil last night, when a spider the size of a half dollar got between me and grow room door. I honestly didnt want to get close enough to him at first to dump the spoonfull I had on him. So I grabbed the sprayer full of azomax and shot him with it. He ran in a few circles and stopped moving. then I dumped the spoonful on his back...Man he flipped out on that shit! Started floppin around crawled into a corner and died.


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## DANKSWAG (Oct 8, 2013)

I wasn't really finding the answers I was hoping too about Bokashi composting, how to create your own EM-1 (effective microorganisms)/BAM (beneficial active microorganisms) till I came across this researching how to make my own EM-1 Inoculant (BAM). 

Now I've learned I can actually produce my very own EM-1 and when used properly in Bokashi style composting I now know that I can produce quality 
EM-1 microbes that I can use in variety of ways not just in my grow but around the house as well.

Anywise if anyone here appreciates this nugget of info please add rep.

Now that I understand how to create quality beneficial microbes from scratch for Bokashi. I can't wait for I am going to master these little microbeasties I am their task Master and I've got plenty of work ahead for them.

Hope to hear others find that link very useful as well.

DS


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## boblawblah421 (Oct 8, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You don't top dress for creepy crawlers or do you just rely on neem?


The only top dress I apply is with my compost. I just make sure to keep 40ish gallons of the same exact soil recipe as what my gals are in on hand for top dresses. This contains DE, as well as all of the other ingredients in the typical ROLS soil recipe. I also water it in with compost tea that contains Earth Compound by Progress Earth. This product contains a bunch of the botanicals from post #8 from this thread. Progress Earth has already fermented all of these ingredients for you.

In my opinion, organic pest control is all about throwing every known plant with pesticide qualities at the pests as you can. More importantly though, is to have the absolute healthiest plants possible, by creating a perfect little ecosystem for your micro heard.


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## NickNasty (Oct 8, 2013)

I think its also about having good bugs/predators already in your system. Its a lot harder for bad bugs to take hold if there is already a population of good bugs defending things.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 8, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> I think its also about having good bugs/predators already in your system. Its a lot harder for bad bugs to take hold if there is already a population of good bugs defending things.


Like those viscous lady bugs. So cute yet so ruthless.


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## jcdws602 (Oct 8, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> The only top dress I apply is with my compost. I just make sure to keep 40ish gallons of the same exact soil recipe as what my gals are in on hand for top dresses. This contains DE, as well as all of the other ingredients in the typical ROLS soil recipe. I also water it in with compost tea that contains Earth Compound by Progress Earth. This product contains a bunch of the botanicals from post #8 from this thread. Progress Earth has already fermented all of these ingredients for you.
> 
> In my opinion, organic pest control is all about throwing every known plant with pesticide qualities at the pests as you can. More importantly though, is to have the absolute healthiest plants possible, by creating a perfect little ecosystem for your micro heard.


Whoa! that earth compound product is ridiculously expensive! I saw a 1 gallon bag for $280 and a 5 gallon for $1265 @ amazon.......


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## boblawblah421 (Oct 8, 2013)

jcdws602 said:


> Whoa! that earth compound product is ridiculously expensive! I saw a 1 gallon bag for $280 and a 5 gallon for $1265 @ amazon.......


I get the 24 oz bag and use it sparingly. It has all the biodynamic preparations in it, which if you were to purchase individually would be more than that.

I hit my soil with the Earth Compound once while it's cooking, once immediately after transplant, and save the rest for foliars.

It is a ridiculously expensive bag o dirt, but it saves me tons of time in sourcing and fermenting all the wonderful botanicals it contains.


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## Dennis Stein (Oct 9, 2013)

hyroot said:


> just used 2 gal airpots for veg. I don't like them. No matter how slow you pour. Water still goes out the holes. Then there's dry spots in the soil.


You're not pouring slow enough I'm afraid. Mist the top of your soil first with a surfactant to break the surface tension. Then water around the stem keeping away from edges. The water will find it's way to the edges.

Four one gallon air-pots takes me about an hour to water. I water first with cal/mag, then hit them up a second time an half hour later with your favorite nutrient solution or some more cal/mag + (organicare) at 10 drops /g. Keep watering slowly until you get some run-off out of bottom, not the sides. Do not pour this run-off back into your plants. I only re-poor runoff when the water didn't go through my soil. i.e - water that came out the sides because I poured too fast.

One gallon is all you need to veg. These will last close to two months before they get root bound thus creating absorption problems (probably around 6 weeks so keep your eyes peeled). I look for purpling striping on main top stems as an indicator that it's time for a transplant. From these 1 gallon air-pots, I like to go into regular 3 gallon nursery pots, because watering just takes too long to do it right in those air pots. One gallon isn't that bad. Dry down times are a little faster I've noticed as well which is a big positive. 10-14 days after transplant, they go into flower. I try to water only the outside of my containers during transplants to encourage the roots to travel and find water and new resources. I probably only use a half gallon of water during my tp from one gallons to 3 gallons with no runoff. I'll shoot for some runoff my second watering when I hit them up with a nice all purpose tea and some soluble mycos. Plants are usually into flowering by now if everything goes well. Sometimes I'll leave them in veg mode If I feel there's a problem I can work out before flowering or if I feel the plant is having a hard time drying down after the transplant. I like to establish the wet/dry cycle before I flip the lights.


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2013)

Dennis Stein said:


> You're not pouring slow enough I'm afraid. Mist the top of your soil first with a surfactant to break the surface tension. Then water around the stem keeping away from edges. The water will find it's way to the edges.
> 
> Four one gallon air-pots takes me about an hour to water. I water first with cal/mag, then hit them up a second time an half hour later with your favorite nutrient solution or some more cal/mag + (organicare) at 10 drops /g. Keep watering slowly until you get some run-off out of bottom, not the sides. Do not pour this run-off back into your plants. I only re-poor runoff when the water didn't go through my soil. i.e - water that came out the sides because I poured too fast.
> 
> One gallon is all you need to veg. These will last close to two months before they get root bound thus creating absorption problems (probably around 6 weeks so keep your eyes peeled). I look for purpling striping on main top stems as an indicator that it's time for a transplant. From these 1 gallon air-pots, I like to go into regular 3 gallon nursery pots, because watering just takes too long to do it right in those air pots. One gallon isn't that bad. Dry down times are a little faster I've noticed as well which is a big positive. 10-14 days after transplant, they go into flower. I try to water only the outside of my containers during transplants to encourage the roots to travel and find water and new resources. I probably only use a half gallon of water during my tp from one gallons to 3 gallons with no runoff. I'll shoot for some runoff my second watering when I hit them up with a nice all purpose tea and some soluble mycos. Plants are usually into flowering by now if everything goes well. Sometimes I'll leave them in veg mode If I feel there's a problem I can work out before flowering or if I feel the plant is having a hard time drying down after the transplant. I like to establish the wet/dry cycle before I flip the lights.


why would anyone want to do all that. It takes me 15 min to water 9 7 gal fabric pots. Another 5 min to water all my soil mixes and rols pots. I veg in 2 gal plastic pots for 6 weeks no prob. As long as they get teas they don't root bound. I water about 16 oz per gal of soil. 1 gal of water is enough for 7 gals once a week. I don't drown my plants. Nor the rain method. That's for newbs who over feed. At the end of flower 1/2 - 3/4 gal. They take up half as much the last 7-10 days. Purple stems is not an an indication of anything. I've had several strains that have purple stems from the second they root all through growth. Its a characteristic of a strain like the shape or color of bud.


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## Dennis Stein (Oct 9, 2013)

"Why would anyone want to do that?" - saves me a gallon of soil over the two gallon pots. Then it saves me even more soil because I can flower in a 3 gallon pot instead of 5 or 7. And also you have a faster dry down time with these smaller containers. Nearly impossible to over-water. And this is the way you have to water with these air-pots. Your way wasn't working evidently. I'm not saying air-pots are better than other containers, but merely showing peeps how to water there air-pots if they have them. They don't need to throw them away and waste there money.

I spent a lot of time explaining my watering techniques with these one gallon air-pots as I feel your watering and transplanting are your two most important parts of your grow. I also explained how it takes so long to water these pots. There are shortcuts you can take to water a bit faster, but wanted to explain the slow method so peeps will get the hang of it and to know how much water is actually going into there container. To know the difference between a light container and a heavy container.
I feel like I have more control when watering only a few plants at a time. Gives me a chance to hold each one and determine how much more water it needs to completely saturate the soil. My chances of completely saturating my soil go down tremendously when I drink beer and water all my plants at once. 

When they've been growing for 50 years like yourself hyroot, then they can just throw in the exact amount of water they need and not worrying about any dry pockets or runoff.

And what's this shit? "Purple stems is not an an indication of anything?"
Than what is it if it's not hereditary? Something is going on...right? I don't remember reading anywhere that halfway through your grow your plants stems will start turning purple. 
And please don't say cold temperatures, although this will cause it too.

I'm talking about an inside grow with a perfect environment. A strain that doesn't normally purple up.

Not trying to bash you hyroot but you're giving peeps false negatives on these air-pots and now you throw this purple stem bs in there like peeps have nothing to worry about if they see this.

As much as you have had several strains that have purple stems from the onset all the way through flowering, I've had not one.


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## boblawblah421 (Oct 9, 2013)

Quit arguing and go buy some Blumats.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 9, 2013)

I've been told to just make sure sides are packed in air pots. I think yucca or aloe would help to.


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## Tazbud (Oct 9, 2013)

My last grow was coco, hydro in 11L airpots. No problem at all with watering and no run-out at the sides at all. This time i'm in big tubs of dirt with blumats from equally big reservoirs... 

I feel much more relaxed, like a chilled farmer rather than a stressed out chemist.


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## Mohican (Oct 9, 2013)

I have seen some air potters dip the pot in water to let it soak in from the sides. I did this the other day with my clones in regular pots because the Promix had dried away from the sides and was letting the water drain right out without wetting the soil.


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2013)

I just did cartwheels in the rain so there.....!


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2013)

Why didn't anyone tell me worm castings have chitin like crab and shrimp meal. I could be using that against those mites in a foliar.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 10, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Why didn't anyone tell me worm castings have chitin like crab and shrimp meal. I could be using that against those mites in a foliar.


Chitlins come from pigs duh.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 10, 2013)

Blumats with teas...hmmm


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Chitlins come from pigs duh.


nope that was really bad .... Try again


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 10, 2013)

hyroot said:


> nope that was really bad .... Try again


Okay...pig intestines lol. Are you bull chitin me?!


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2013)

^^^^ Wow I guess you are part of the corny joke crew now.. Me , chron, Fran, and psuagro


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## Mohican (Oct 10, 2013)

Everybody's a commode-ian hehe


Here is the Mulanje #2 in the compost pile (with squash):







Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 10, 2013)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^ Wow I guess you are part of the corny joke crew now.. Me , chron, Fran, and psuagro


You could use the chitins from your crabs! Talk about keepin it local.


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You could use the chitins from your crabs! Talk about keepin it local.


now that's hitting below the belt lol... The cornyness rocks


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 11, 2013)

It's also found in cell walls of fungi +1 for me 0 for you


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 17, 2013)

YO, so was doing experiments with alfalfa SST and barley SST, and although I should of caught it by obvious observation, instead of using 2oz of alfalfa seed to make SST V2 it only takes about 1.2 oz to make 80+ grams (which is then made to puree) perfect for 5 gallon feeding. also from another observation, i first watered my small veg plant with alfalfa SST and quickly noticed that the nodes where much tighter on these LANKY ASS OGs, so alfalfa seed is def good for early veg mid veg early flower and prob mid flower... THOUGHTS?


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## Mohican (Oct 17, 2013)

I think it is common knowledge in the plant industry that alfalfa has growth inhibitors that reduce stretch.


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 17, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I think it is common knowledge in the plant industry that alfalfa has growth inhibitors that reduce stretch.


I've heard that too. I've also heard that the triacontanol contained in alfalfa is a growth stimulator.

Kinda confusing


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## hyroot (Oct 17, 2013)

So does that mean the growth inhibitors do nothing?. Or do more nodes grow with less stretch in a shorter time span?


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## SpicySativa (Oct 18, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I think it is common knowledge in the plant industry that alfalfa has growth inhibitors that reduce stretch.


I don't think it's as much inhibitors reducing stretch as stimulators (triacontanol) encouraging branching (more new nodes, less bare stem). Kindof accomplishes the same thing I guess. 

This theory is just based off my experiences. When I give an alfalfa tea, my plants seem anything BUT inhibited.


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 18, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I think it is common knowledge in the plant industry that alfalfa has growth inhibitors that reduce stretch.


thanks for that I geuss I don't have common knowledge in the plant industry, next time I wont bring it up =)


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## Mohican (Oct 19, 2013)

It's not common knowledge to me. I just meant that it seems to be well documented in growing literature.


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## jubiare (Oct 22, 2013)

"From cootz, on alfalfa

Here's a study from The Phytotron, University of Oslo, Blindern, Oslo 3 Norway titled Effect of Triacontanol on Production and Quality of Flowers of_Chrysanthemum morifolium_ Ramat*Quote*
*Abstract*

Two cultivars of Chrysanthemum morifolium, &#8216;Golden Horim&#8217; and &#8216;Golden Miquel&#8217;, were cultivated in nutrient solution containing the growth regulator triacontanol. The vegetative growth, production of inflorescences and quality of flowers were measured. The dry weight of the whole plant and the shoot from both cultivars increased. 

The number of inflorescences per plant and the number of flowers per inflorescence also increased in response to triacontanol treatment, which in turn enhanced the quality of flowers in accordance with the standards defined by sales-quality groups. 

The number of flowers of superior quality was more than doubled.​Here are more links for you to peruse perhaps............

Basically Triacontanol is a simple fatty alcohol with a general formula of C30&#8226;H62&#8226;O - a ton of Carbon (@ 30) and Hydrogen (@ 62) bound to a single Oxygen atom. You can see from the molecular structure that this agent is quickly assimilated in the root zone.

I apply alfalfa teas throughout the veg and flower cycles












What makes alfalfa different from other plant-based soil amendments is that alfalfa meal is not a seed meal meaning that it's been minimally processed.

The other plant amendments like canola (aka rape seed), linseed (aka flax seed), soy, sunflower and neem seed is that these products are the cake or meal that remains after the oil has been pressed for their commercial value. 

Alfalfa is not a seed meal meaning that it retains all of the compounds. It can be an important component to increase the microbial levels in your soil and is often recommena food when brewing an AACT

Personally I wouldn't grow without kelp and alfalfa

HTH

CC"


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## OrganicEcoGrow (Oct 24, 2013)

Interesting! I was researching molasses for overall soil/plant ecological benefits, and came across this post on thctalk.com: http://www.thctalk.com/cannabis-forum/showthread.php?212-Growing-with-molasses

The poster also mentions some info on alfalfa tea and its use. Additionally, his information on molasses is intriguing and thoughtful, at least I found it to be, and I thought the rollitup crew might enjoy


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 26, 2013)

I have a ? about some cooked soil I have that's infested with a trillion white/yellowish mites. looks like I mixed a third sand. They devoured 3 of my precious seedlings' roots. How are these damn things living with all the bennies and neem cake?! How do I rid of them? Thanks for any replies.


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Oct 27, 2013)

I'd say most soil dwelling mites are decomposes and pose no threat to your plants life. If anything they'll help, if you start seeing mites on your plant's it may be a different type of mite, that's when you may have an issue.


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## DANKSWAG (Oct 27, 2013)

I've been reviewing my notes on making my own LAB Lacto Acid Bacillus which is the base for EM1. 
Microbes cultivated and used for protecting plants from pathogens and digest nutrients in the soil to enhance growth. 


*Cultivaing bacterica *
1 cup whole grain rice
2 cups h20 sans chloride 
Shake well store in closed container that has equal air space to material volume
let set 3-5 days with top covered with paper towel room temp sans uv rays
with syringe remove 7oz clear serum from infected mixture

*Separating bacteria LAB from hood of every bacteria from a-z
*Place 7oz bacterial serum into container with 70oz of whole milk raw is possible any well do
Let set one week (7 days) as with the rice water mixture above
Cheese will form on top remove feed to animals or add to compost
remaining is your LAB separated out for use as you see fit. Approximate 1000ml 1 liter
That's freaking easy you now have your very own hard working great for everything *BACILLUS
*
*Storage
*You can keep in airtight container in fridge up to 3 years, goes dormant in one.
Or add equal parts molasses to stabilize and store for up to 3 years cool room temp.
When adding molasses stir well this now becomes 2 liters or 2000ml stabilized Bacillus​




And I am being told this lacks additional needed strains and species compared to the following: 

"You are creating One form of Bacilius bacteria with the LAB.

There are 7 different strains of 4 different species of Bacilius in P3."​




http://www.prolificplantprobiotic.com/
Product Claims to have:



_*Bacillus Subtilis*
- Well known cattle feed ingredient
- Spores are viable for decades; common soil inoculant: frees up nutrients from food sources
- Symbiotic with roots as a colonizer; antagonistic to pathogens
*Bacillus Licheniformis*
- Found in soil and on bird feathers
- Protease producer (especially breaks down feathers)
- Biological &#8220;laundry detergent&#8221;
- Adapts well to alkaline areas
*Bacillus Amyloliquefaciens*
- Source of the BamH1 restrictive enzyme (stifles virus and pathogens)
- Source of Subtilisin, an organic &#8220;laundry detergent&#8221;
- Causes starch hydrolysis of green plants
- Produces Barnase, an antibiotic protein
*Bacillus Pumilis*
- Anti-fungal
- Colonizes roots to prevent fungus formation
- Highly stress resistant
All are considered &#8220;rhizobacteria&#8221; for they breakdown atmospheric nitrogen into a compound easy to uptake by plants.
*Summary of P[SUP]3 [/SUP]Prolific Plant Probiotic&#8482;*

*One dose (1 inch of pellets) contains:* 

600+ million CFUs of Bacillus microbes
Micronutrient spectrum package usually depleted from soil
Amino acids spectrum package critical for plant life
Delivered on a carrier of plant roughage
Contains seven strains from the above mentioned four Bacillus species

_
​




Is there anyway to add these different missing strains, if needed and really missing? Won't I get a better healthier spectrum of beneficial bacteria by using this homemade LAB in composting which will introduce other strains of bacteria in which LAB will help influence the growth of other beneficial bacteria that could ultimately provide a soil web that would not need to have a product like P3 added?


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## DANKSWAG (Oct 27, 2013)

SpicySativa said:


> I don't think it's as much inhibitors reducing stretch as stimulators (triacontanol) encouraging branching (more new nodes, less bare stem). Kindof accomplishes the same thing I guess.
> 
> This theory is just based off my experiences. When I give an alfalfa tea, my plants seem anything BUT inhibited.


That is how I understand how Alpha works too.


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## NickNasty (Oct 27, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I have a ? about some cooked soil I have that's infested with a trillion white/yellowish mites. looks like I mixed a third sand. They devoured 3 of my precious seedlings' roots. How are these damn things living with all the bennies and neem cake?! How do I rid of them? Thanks for any replies.


I have had this happen with seedlings too once I started using fresh vermicompost. I now plant seedlings in just bag soil in cups till they get big enough and once they are established I have had zero problems . As far as getting rid of them in your cooked soil it is probably too wet. You could spread it out and dry it out or if its cold outside you could probably freeze it too. Really you shouldn't have that many mites in your soil if you do something is off. It would be best if we could see a pic of the type of mite. You could also get Hypoaspis miles which are predator mites that eat things like springtails , root aphids , gnats, etc. and are very beneficial in your soil. I have never had mites as bad as your saying although I have heard of it happening in a worm bin when there was not enough oxygen or the ph of the bin was way off and then they would feed on the dead/dying worms and there population would skyrocket.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 27, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> I have had this happen with seedlings too once I started using fresh vermicompost. I now plant seedlings in just bag soil in cups till they get big enough and once they are established I have had zero problems . As far as getting rid of them in your cooked soil it is probably too wet. You could spread it out and dry it out or if its cold outside you could probably freeze it too. Really you shouldn't have that many mites in your soil if you do something is off. It would be best if we could see a pic of the type of mite. You could also get Hypoaspis miles which are predator mites that eat things like springtails , root aphids , gnats, etc. and are very beneficial in your soil. I have never had mites as bad as your saying although I have heard of it happening in a worm bin when there was not enough oxygen or the ph of the bin was way off and then they would feed on the dead/dying worms and there population would skyrocket.


Yeah it's pretty bad. Like I said looks like I mixed a 1/3 sand  I put about 12 cubic feet outside in cold...then had to medicate my back lol. Noticed it was over saturated like you said. I should have said tap root instead of seedling. It had a 1/4" tap when I put in soil and the damn things were all over it. I'll try to get a good close up pic.


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## NickNasty (Oct 27, 2013)

If they are eating a tap root those are bad mites not mites you would usually find in a worm bin or want in your garden. And I hate to say it but I probably wouldn't keep that soil cause it will take forever to get rid of them unless sterilize it. You can use nematodes and the Hypoaspis miles but with a infestation that big it would take a long time to get rid of them that way. You might be able to sterilize it but it would kill off any good stuff you got going anyway. I would start with new soil and add nematodes/miles to that so the mites u have don't set up living quarters in your new soil. Any idea where you got them?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 28, 2013)

Soils been in the unfinished basement for months...haven't had any bug probs in two years down there. Just went out and checked cold pile and it looks like there's even more :O Threw some dirt form nearby woods in it and on top. I'm pissed about all the amendments and time I put into that heap of spider shit. I was hoping the cold (below 40) would do something. I'm just starting a worm bin so I might as well start over with the better worm poo. Doing straight coco with teas for now.


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## Mohican (Oct 28, 2013)

Is the cold pile outside or in the basement?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 28, 2013)

Outside now for a week. I had the same idea as Nasty with the Nematodes. Hoping the dirt from woods will have enough predators in it.


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## Mohican (Oct 28, 2013)

Maybe covering it with a tarp over the winter? Or pour moonshine or everclear all over it and light it (biochar)!

I emptied my compost barrel one time and it was full of red mites. I buried that batch under my compost pile hoping they would get cooked. It seemed to work.

Maybe something hot like fresh manure?


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2013)

Buy some compost and just throw it on top and water. the predatory mites will show shortly afterwards. I found having lavender and mint (chocolate, peppermint) plants sitting around the garden deters bugs. Especially spider mites and regular spiders. I wish I figured that out weeks ago. no sprays or anything needed....


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 28, 2013)

Well I'll wait to see what some wood humus does before making a bonfire lol. They are tiny white/yellow SOBs. They're fast and will crawl up your arm. Hoping that dirt will have some mite munchers in it. I'll check it in a week. I don't want 250#s of cooked soil going to waste.

EDIT: Hyroot are you talking cow manure or mushroom compost? My shop has lobster compost and it seems to be the gnats favorite lol. I can't by real compost anywhere near here.


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## NickNasty (Oct 28, 2013)

Yeah I like the compost idea any bad bugs should get cooked out of it or will be gone by the time you use it then you can throw it in your worm bin once its cooked and you will have some highly amended Vermicompost. This way you are not throwing it away your just improving it with age.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 28, 2013)

I don't make my own compost and the only local compost is from the municipal poo facility. I can get bagged mushroom, lobster, and cow manure compost also. You don't think the wood humus full of BMIs will whoop em?


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2013)

Mushroom compost is great. That's hard to find in SoCal. Lobster compost sounds good. I never used it before. Manure , cow manure is good. Horse manure, chicken manure are bad. 

you can go to home depot any get any cheap compost too. Grab that mushroom compost for sure .


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## NickNasty (Oct 28, 2013)

What everyone is saying is You should make your own compost with your amended soil. You can leave it outside over winter and it will slowly compost or you can bring it to a warmer spot and add already done compost to it and it should start cooking it again.
I just brought my composter in for the winter so I could continue to use it. 


Edit: Sorry about the sideways pics...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 28, 2013)

The lobster was covered in gnats and only 16$ a cubic foot lol. Going to try the mushroom tomorrow. That's same good soil piled up out there. Thought about adding some green and brown and start my own compost. Ton of dry leaves around here. I guess the chitin bacteria are slacking too. Fuck bugs.


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## DANKSWAG (Oct 28, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> I've been reviewing my notes on making my own LAB Lacto Acid Bacillus which is the base for EM1.
> Microbes cultivated and used for protecting plants from pathogens and digest nutrients in the soil to enhance growth.
> 
> 
> ...


 Any takers on this question, seems to me I could use basic EM1 (LAB) and incorporate into my composting which should promote other helpful bacteria to join the crowd making my compost and soil come alive with a plethora of good Bacillus strains / species?


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2013)

Worm bins are one thing. I don't like compost bins. They don't get enough airflow. I just had problems... I'd rather do piles in a fenced bin outside. I'm perfectly happy with just indoor worm bins for the winter.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 28, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Any takers on this question, seems to me I could use basic EM1 (LAB) and incorporate into my composting which should promote other helpful bacteria to join the crowd making my compost and soil come alive with a plethora of good Bacillus strains / species?


there is a vid on youtube that shows u how to activate ur EM and make 20 bottles with 1. that comes out to be pretty cheap. . that stuff is strong and dont need a lot , nor frequent application. that said it would be nice to know how to make it from scratch

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BttGnPHRFT4


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## DANKSWAG (Oct 28, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> there is a vid on youtube that shows u how to activate ur EM and make 20 bottles with 1. that comes out to be pretty cheap. . that stuff is strong and dont need a lot , nor frequent application. that said it would be nice to know how to make it from scratch
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BttGnPHRFT4


GreenSanta,

Thanks for that. Got another take on activation. I am hoping to find a more complete EM1 recipe that will ensure as many possible Bacillus strains and other beneficial bacteria. This was helpful as for as additional info on Activation and Storage.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 29, 2013)

Soil with grass roots have a ton of goodies. I was told this by a very wise coffee drinker. Research it and you'll be dumbfounded. All the soil here is like cement  if I didn't believe in karma, someone would have a really messed up lawn right now.


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## Mohican (Oct 29, 2013)

Rabbit manure is really good for plants and worms! Any rabbit farms around?


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 29, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Rabbit manure is really good for plants and worms! Any rabbit farms around?


Go adopt one Mo. They make great little pets, and they are shitting machines!


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## Mohican (Oct 29, 2013)

After the cage is finished I will add rabbits, chickens, giant worm bin, compost bin, cow (jk) hehe

"You're gonna need a bigger boat!" 
Sheriff Brody


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## hyroot (Oct 31, 2013)

Mo is it going to be a petting zoo....?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

I've actually used chinchilla and tortoise poo lol. And yes I did pet them.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

Well I just want to kill the effers and use my hard earned mix asap. I still see what looks like eggs but I don't know if they're dead. No mites crawling around at least.


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

Sounds like a lot of great advice here! I'd do as many others suggested: Re-ammend with your own stuff. Your own stuff is always better. You don't have to wonder what's in it, if there are chemicals from a dump, if it's infested, or if it's been sterilized. YOUR stuff is super-charges. Best available. Just as these fine folks have said. 

I'd for sure fight pests with pests also. Hypo mites, and I'd add predatory nematodes and BTI all at the same time. 

Keep the moisture reasonable. Keep the O2 flow good. Turn the soil if too moist. It'll need to be warm for the bennies to do their thing.

Remember that the bad pests are typically faster than the good guys. So they whip in and establish a population fast if they can. The good news is that while slower, the good guys are generally stronger. So the point is to get the good guys established initially, and they'll hold the fort thereafter.

So I start any soil assuming it's fulla bad stuff. Here's my arsenal for pests:

#1 Vermicompost. Fresh stuff will help protect both the soil and leaves (yep, the leaves). 

#2 Neem Meal- Also good nutritionally when it decomposes, this is a great pest suppressant, especially in its whole form. http://www.neemresource.com

#3 BTI dunks Bacillus thuringiensis israelensis bacteria. Mosquito dunks. Any hardware store has mosquito dunks. These feed on larvae. http://www.thatpetplace.com/mosquito-bits-larvicide-36oz?gdftrk=gdfV2226_a_7c268_a_7c6967_a_7c196070&ne_ppc_id=1463&ne_key_id=26452429&gclid=CLTRrJ_2gLkCFYxcMgodrQsA8A

#4 Nematodes- These will travel around in search of larvae to infect and explode. http://www.naturescontrol.com/thrip.html#pn

#5 Crab Shell- The shell contains chitin. This attracts bacteria that eat chitin, and these bacteria multiply like crazy. Larvae have jawbones made of chitin. Bacteria then eat the jawbones. Shell releases a lot of great minerals and Calcium also. www.OrganicGrowers.com


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

You're right on about all the good advice. Love this community. I thought the simplest and quickest way would be to add dirt from the woods. Doesn't that provide a good enough BIM and predator army? Should I haul it all back inside where its warm. I have neem, crab shell, and bagged EWC in the mix already. Like I mentioned, I don't see anymore mites, but I do see what looks like sand/eggs.


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

I would order up the predators. When they arrive, bring the soil in to warm up. Then apply the gladiators


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

Ugh just another thing to buy  Gotta spend $ to make $ they say. I'm thinking about starting a crab farm (not Hyroots kind of crabs), already got the worms (named all 2000), doing a bonsai Neem tree, and I'll look into Nematodes farming. Oh forgot to mention growing clovers (my idea), aloe, lavender, basil, and dandelions. Anything I miss lol?


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

You can raise these predators in buckets and sell them to people like me through the mail...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

Rrog said:


> You can raise these predators in buckets and sell them to people like me through the mail...


Deal bud! My worms are going nuts and not one tried to get out of my many airholes. They already demolished 2 diced apples, 1 diced banana peel, 12 egg shells, and I can't even see or smell the coffee grounds. Is this feeding frenzy normal? Should I feed every day?


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

Frenzy is good! Why leave the great shack you set up for them? Feed 'em! But be careful not to over do it or it'll go anaerobic. Add a little, but often. 

Consider toasting egg shells to make the elements in them (Ca) more available.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Frenzy is good! Why leave the great shack you set up for them? Feed 'em! But be careful not to over do it or it'll go anaerobic. Add a little, but often.
> 
> Consider toasting egg shells to make the elements in them (Ca) more available.


C'mon now man. I already did! I watched all the Korean and Hawaiian vids on you tube...not to mention reading your posts. What dried plants would you add? There's still plenty of leaves in there.


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

Hahahahaha!!!! Shame on me!! Hahahaha! That's funny!

Anything you would normally consider adding as am amendment can be added to the bins. Kelp, crab, various meals, Neem. Then a bunch of accumulators like Comfrey (you should grow some), dandelion, nettles, etc. Then higher N stuff like Alfalfa (although some previous items are also higher N) you have to be careful with or you'll start a thermo compost and start cookin stuff. 

Variety is the opportunity here. Old flowers, fruits, all add diversity. This is why your stuff will be the best stuff. Perfectly acclimated to your area because of the BIMs that are unavoidably present. Local ninjas


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

Local ninjas....gladiators....LMAO. How bout Battletodes!!! I just visited your predator link and there's so many options. Going to do some EVEN MORE research.


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

LOL! Seriously I WISH someone would raise these and sell them cheaper. There's a crap-ton of profit, and they also charge a lot for freight. 

For that link, look at the Double Death Nematode mix and the Hypo mites


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

Hoping I'll get some Hypos in my worm bin. Then I'll bust out the tweezers. These damn things are expensive. Geeeez what a scam.


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 1, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Hahahahaha!!!! Shame on me!! Hahahaha! That's funny!
> 
> Anything you would normally consider adding as am amendment can be added to the bins. Kelp, crab, various meals, Neem. Then a bunch of accumulators like Comfrey (you should grow some), dandelion, nettles, etc.* Then higher N stuff like Alfalfa (although some previous items are also higher N) you have to be careful with or you'll start a thermo compost and start cookin stuff.
> *
> Variety is the opportunity here. Old flowers, fruits, all add diversity. This is why your stuff will be the best stuff. Perfectly acclimated to your area because of the BIMs that are unavoidably present. Local ninjas


Good advice right there! I made this mistake once. Now I just add my spent alfalfa from my nutrient teas which seems to go much better since alot of the N is leached out of the alfalfa through the brewing process.


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

That's what Coot does and works well for him. Even a little "raw" alfalfa if you add a little at a time isn't an issue in the bin.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

I put 1 tbsp of fine alfalfa from my mortar and pestle (love that thing). What do you guys think is to much?


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

That could be hot as shit. You have any charcoal around? Bust that up to around marble / BB size and add to water and Alfalfa. N will be dropped like crazy as it adsorbs to the char. Add the char and Alfalfa to the soil after a few days. Good to lightly bubble.

Later the char will give the N back up. So cool


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2013)

Thoughts on pots.... This idea comes from Spicy and what Sub says in his videos.... We all know transplanting during flower is bad we don't want to promote root growth diverting energy away from bud sites.. Using fabric pots or air pots during flower air prune the roots causing them to branch out and promote new root growth... So would it be better to Use plastic pots during flower and fabric during veg. It makes sense... Ironically I've been doing the opposite. cheap plastic plastic pots during veg and fabric pots during flower... 

Spicy also said his fabric pots , soil would dry fast around the edges. I don't have that issue , different environments and what not.... 

Sub uses plastic pots too ..... I've been braining out on it ever since me n spicy posted about it back and forth the other day...


----------



## GreenSanta (Nov 1, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Thoughts on pots.... This idea comes from Spicy and what Sub says in his videos.... We all know transplanting during flower is bad we don't want to promote root growth diverting energy away from bud sites.. Using fabric pots or air pots during flower air prune the roots causing them to branch out and promote new root growth... So would it be better to Use plastic pots during flower and fabric during veg. It makes sense... Ironically I've been doing the opposite. cheap plastic plastic pots during veg and fabric pots during flower...
> 
> Spicy also said his fabric pots , soil would dry fast around the edges. I don't have that issue , different environments and what not....
> 
> Sub uses plastic pots too ..... I've been braining out on it ever since me n spicy posted about it back and forth the other day...


one of the nicest plant in my garden right now is a hybrid pot... haha. The fabric pot was falling apart so i placed it in a plastic nursery pot, so it's a fabric pot in a plastic pot. I think it offers the best of both world and i will be experimenting with this for the next little while. Everybody says fabric pot rocks but so far i see my best plants are more often in plastic container... or often enough to be 50-50 ... container dont seem to matter!! hehe anyway i like when i dont have to water all that often.


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2013)

hyroot said:


> ...Using fabric pots or air pots during flower air prune the roots causing them to branch out and promote new root growth...


I and many others would not agree that the use of hardside pots during flower offers any advantage. I would argue the opposite. I really promote fabric pots all the way through


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## hyroot (Nov 1, 2013)

I may do a comparison grow with grow bags and fabric pots.. I'm on the fence about it though. I will say the largest yield on one plant I ever got was in a 5 gal grow bag. 6.25 zips. I've pulled qpers off of 3 gal grow bags too. I also don't rock those strains anymore..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

Grow bags are cheap and work!!! I just took 40 and drilled in some extra holes. Also drilled holes in cheapo plasticos. All we all want is air. At least I made my holes symmetrical. I just can't get my self to by expensive pots. Might look into buying a roll of fabric and a sewing machine on Craig's list!!!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2013)

And don't outdoor plants always build roots during flower? I don't get the whole transplant thing during flower will hurt. We all know how to transplant and honestly my plants don't even seem bothered by it.


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## GreenSanta (Nov 2, 2013)

up until recently I was always transplanting from 1/2 - 1 gallon straight into 7 gallons and flip the light the same day, some plants would grow super big anyway... I think if everything is right and the soil is healthy, the plants dont spend energy growing roots, growing roots gives them energy. no? But anyway transplanting a week or 2 prior to flip actually seem to increase yield so that's what i do now.

That said my very best plants so far were all grown 12/12 from seed by having the seedlings in the 7 gals container ... but it is not the most efficient way to grow because the room is always half full and a 7 gals container for a seedling increase the humidity of the room quite a bit for a baby plant.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 2, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Grow bags are cheap and work!!! I just took 40 and drilled in some extra holes. Also drilled holes in cheapo plasticos. All we all want is air. At least I made my holes symmetrical. I just can't get my self to by expensive pots. Might look into buying a roll of fabric and a sewing machine on Craig's list!!!


 I guess it depends on what your time is worth.... I will spend a little extra so I can enjoy doing other things and not have to burden myself with that time consuming task.... I think though if they came in PINK you'd be all over it.... LMAO No harm no foul just joshing you.. have fun drilling and sewing away. You could probably even bejewel them too if you want...


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 2, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> I guess it depends on what your time is worth.... I will spend a little extra so I can enjoy doing other things and not have to burden myself with that time consuming task.... I think though if they came in PINK you'd be all over it.... LMAO No harm no foul just joshing you.. have fun drilling and sewing away. You could probably even bejewel them too if you want...


LMFAO!!! Could you image the PMs I'd get from the female growers! I might have to start a business now!


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 2, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> LMFAO!!! Could you image the PMs I'd get from the female growers! I might have to start a business now!


Hey I own the Intellectual Rights on that idea! If you agree I will take 10% as a gentleman's agreement...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 2, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Hey I own the Intellectual Rights on that idea! If you agree I will take 10% as a gentleman's agreement...


Damn...might have to ditch the stitch and go with hot glue to compensate. Deal.


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## hyroot (Nov 2, 2013)

I get 10% as your manager / agent


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 2, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I get 10% as your manager / agent


Model on you tube and you got yourself a deal!


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## hyroot (Nov 2, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Model on you tube and you got yourself a deal!


Nah I'm too sexy


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 2, 2013)

You guys are just laughing it up and pokin fun....wait till you see my Coach Pots on eBay. Oh just got another PM...later clowns.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 2, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You guys are just laughing it up and pokin fun....wait till you see my Coach Pots on eBay. Oh just got another PM...later clowns.


Nothing funny about money and no funny money, I am serious send 10% my way after first Million in profit we'll kick it down to just 7%!

BTW I will be buying my cloth pots in bulk from you...

Say have you seen my Bud Porn Lately?

*BUD PORN FREAKING DANKSWAGING BOMBASTIC!*


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## hyroot (Nov 3, 2013)

Does anyone know if pearl barley seed will work for a tea. Its $0.99 a pound down the street.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 3, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Does anyone know if pear barley seed will work for a tea. Its $0.99 a pound down the street.


Doesn't any seed work?


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## hyroot (Nov 3, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Doesn't any seed work?


apparently they won't sprout because they are hulled ...


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 3, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Does anyone know if pearl barley seed will work for a tea. Its $0.99 a pound down the street.


No they won't. "Pearl" means hulled, which is a process that removes the husk along with the embryo rendering the seeds useless for our purpose. I made the same mistake myself.

Chia seeds are cheap and will do the trick.


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## hyroot (Nov 3, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> No they won't. "Pearl" means hulled, which is a process that removes the husk along with the embryo rendering the seeds useless for our purpose. I made the same mistake myself.
> 
> Chia seeds are cheap and will do the trick.


well I bought a pound of hulled, unhulled, and pearl
I was going to try them all anyway... 99 cents each... What ever ones don't work I'll grind into flour and make a pizza or pancakes or something.

Now I know and knowing is half the battle... I ordered sprout seeds last time. This time I shopped locally.


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## Steelheader3430 (Nov 4, 2013)

headtreep said:


> This is one of my current mixes I'm using. I still have some other mixes going as well with more ingredients but I truly believe that this is a great start for everyone that is very reasonably priced. I used to amend commerical soils until I got enlighten.
> 
> Soil Base - Per Cubic Foot
> 
> ...


So would I mix all the ingredients listed below "amendment mix" to the 3 part base? Then wet and cook for a couple weeks-month?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 4, 2013)

Steelheader3430 said:


> So would I mix all the ingredients listed below "amendment mix" to the 3 part base? Then wet and cook for a couple weeks-month?


Excellent mix. All bases covered. Trust me on this...don't over saturate mix!!! I think this is how I got those malicious seedling eating mites. Just keep moist and turn once a week for a month and your good. You can always try any plant in your mix to see if it'll burn. I've seen this mix from somewhere...hmmmm.

When my VC takes off I'm going to try same exact recipe but with Nematode ninjas. I'm also going to cut down the lava rock in half and go with 50/50 peat n coco coir.


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## Steelheader3430 (Nov 4, 2013)

Thanks Red! I'm trying to get my head wrapped around doing things organically (hence my presence on https://www.rollitup.org/organics/676040-total-noob-using-teas-i.html) I'm a noob and went into the grow shop before starting last spring and all the cartoony bottles really rubbed me the wrong way. Not to mention the complete lack of price tags on all that shit. I really just need to get the basics of organic living soil and teas. I'm in the fundamental stage of learning and looking forward to getting started with it all. Winter is here so the soil mixing will have to wait i think. Unless i put a trash can in my tent with a space heater in there.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 4, 2013)

All these winter probs are so easy guys. Do you have furnaces lol. Can you afford a space heater(read reviews)? Run lights on open fixtures for more heat? Insulation! 

And yes don't pay for bottled shit unless it's half of Earth Juice line  SCORE!!! Or Dyna Grow especially the almighty DG ProText!


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## Steelheader3430 (Nov 4, 2013)

My tent is in the garage. I've been running dyna-gro's foliage pro and grow formulas. Foliage pro on my sickly ak48 and grow on her healthier sister and the foliage pro has way fatter buds. They were samples, I'm poor right now. But I'm gonna get away from all that. If I don't put my growing on hold which I might for a bit I'll probably cook the soil in my tent with a space heater.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 4, 2013)

Steelheader3430 said:


> My tent is in the garage. I've been running dyna-gro's foliage pro and grow formulas. Foliage pro on my sickly ak48 and grow on her healthier sister and the foliage pro has way fatter buds. They were samples, I'm poor right now. But I'm gonna get away from all that. If I don't put my growing on hold which I might for a bit I'll probably cook the soil in my tent with a space heater.


The heater might give you mold issues, kill your micro army, or dry it out killing them again. How warm is your tent?


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## Steelheader3430 (Nov 4, 2013)

Got plants in it right now. 74 lights on. I would find a balance with a heater before progressing. Sorry to hijack the thread. I'm gonna have to close up my grow after these are done due to too much weed and other things to focus on.


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## Mohican (Nov 5, 2013)

I threw some reject clones outside to die and I put them in front of the dryer exhaust. They seem to like that very much!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 5, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I threw some reject clones outside to die and I put them in front of the dryer exhaust. They seem to like that very much!


Wow...reminds of when I accidentally vented my dryer to my little veg cab


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 5, 2013)

Steelheader3430 said:


> So would I mix all the ingredients listed below "amendment mix" to the 3 part base? Then wet and cook for a couple weeks-month?


I would replace perlite with rice hulls, the dust from perlite is not good for you to breath. Plus rice hulls great for aeration and place for microbes to cling to.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 5, 2013)

*PURELY ORGANIC.... YUM YUM BLUE CHEESE 

Just 4 tops I chopped and trimmed from my PHOGS PHASE III Journal

*


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## klcconnors (Nov 5, 2013)

First time making Soil... after reading this thread for a few weeks... 

Calling it So Cal Soil Recipe, got everything from around here, LA/LB/Beaches area, inoculating now with Sugar in the Raw 10 tbs/5 gallons H20:


6 cubic feet Master Nursery Organic Black Forest Compost (H & H Nursery):



Forest Humus Compost
Redwood 
Firbark 
 
Sphagnum Peat Moss 
Worm Castings 
Chicken Manure 
Bat Guano 
Kelp Meal 
Oyster Shell 
Dolomite Lime 
Mycorrhizae 
 4.5 cubic feet E.B. Stone Recipe 420 Blend Soil (H & H Nursery)



Fir bark (30%-35% Aged Forest Products) 
Coir 
Sphagnum Peat Moss 
Pumice 
Earthworm Castings 
Feather Meal 
Seabird Guano 
Crab Meal 
Bat Guano 
Fish Bone Meal 
Kelp Meal 
Gypsum 
Humic Acid from Leonardite 
Yucca 
Mycorrhizae 
 4 cubic feet Perlite (H & H Nursery)

3.8 cubic feet Sphagnum Peat Moss (H & H Nursery)

1 cubic feet of Pumice (H & H Nursery)

.5 cubic feet Wood Charcoal (Home Depot)

20 Quarts Earthworm Castings (H & H Nursery) with: 



Volcanic Pumice 
Kelp Meal 
 3.5 pounds Gardner & Bloome Blood Meal 13-0-0 (H & H Nursery)

3.5 pounds Gardner & Bloome Fish Bone Meal 3-18-0 (H & H Nursery)

2.5 pounds Fox Farms Bat Guano 0-5-0 (LB Hydroponics)

3 pounds Gardner & Bloome Kelp Meal (H & H Nursery)

1.5 pounds Gardner & Bloome Alfalfa Meal (H & H Nursery)

3 pounds Down to Earth Azomite (LB Hydroponics)

1 cup GrowMore Dolomite Lime (LB Hydroponics)

¾ cup Epsom salts (CVS Drugstore)

1 pack of Mykos (H & H Nursery)


Makes over 120 Gallons (around 20 cu ft I think) for under $200 (I named brands and location for anyone else in my area who stumbles upon this thread)

It is cooking now, anyones 2 cents is appreciated, going into 30 gal fabric pots for 8 x6 Greenhouse ROLS program and potentially 10 gallon 4x4 indoor program.

I currently have a few aloe plants, along with a pound of white clover... I'll be messing around with those

plan on ordering comfrey, nettle, horsetail and growing those indoors under fluoros and outdoors in 7 gallon pots... 

No frost usually, plus can plant yearround in GH... ok rambling now, feel free to add or call me out thank you in advance.


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## klcconnors (Nov 5, 2013)

Here is a link to my water source I am hoping someone much smarter than me can decipher it in the scope of growing and give me some feedback

http://www.lbwater.org/sites/default/files/FY 2013 CCR.pdf


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 6, 2013)

klcconnors said:


> Here is a link to my water source I am hoping someone much smarter than me can decipher it in the scope of growing and give me some feedback
> 
> http://www.lbwater.org/sites/default/files/FY 2013 CCR.pdf



Below excerpt stands out to me, which means you will need a 5 gallon bucket, air stone, air pump and tubing. Chloramine is stronger then chloride which you can air bubble out so I think you need to add humic acid?

I am sure Rrog or another organic guru on this thread will know of the top of their heads...

There is something natural and organic you can add to water that has chloramine, besides you will want to make compost teas and such for organic growing so you need that hardware anywise if you don't have it 
already. 





adding the lowest quantity of chloramine necessary 
to protect the safety of your water throughout the distribution system, without compromising 
taste. However, chloramine can react with naturally occurring materials in the water to form 
disinfection by-products (DBPs), which may pose health risks. Total trihalomethanes (TTHMs) 
and haloacetic acids (HAA5), the most common DBPs, are suspected to be carcinogenic in 
humans.


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## Mohican (Nov 6, 2013)

I add lemon juice (4tbs/5gal) to help with the chloramine. I have seen a definite increase in vigor this year with less water. Another additive that seems to be helping is the coconut water.


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## Mohican (Nov 6, 2013)

Here is the Holy Smoke Mulanje in the compost pile:














Cheers,
Mo


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## Mohican (Nov 6, 2013)

I did need to supplement the compost with a source of phosphorus. The flowers immediately increased in size over the next week.


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## Rrog (Nov 6, 2013)

Fish Bone Meal, but can be hot. Avoid un-inoculated char


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 6, 2013)

Mohican said:


> I add lemon juice (4tbs/5gal) to help with the chloramine. I have seen a definite increase in vigor this year with less water. Another additive that seems to be helping is the coconut water.


Great answer MO! I always mix in just a little molasses (also acidic) and pinch of EWC.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 6, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Fish Bone Meal, but can be hot. Avoid un-inoculated char


I can't stop grinding shit since I got my mortar n pestle! Safety tip: use safety glasses when grinding fish bone meal and crab shell meal lol.


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## Rrog (Nov 6, 2013)

I'm lazy. I don't grind anything.


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## klcconnors (Nov 6, 2013)

Dank, thanks I do have and use that equipment, I currently aerate every watering, aerating for about a day or so. I also have General Organics black forest humic acids, if someone could explain that with chloramine treated water, that would be awesome.

MO, on my way to Lazy Acres in LB to grab coconut water powder and organic lemon juice thanks!

Rrog, thanks I read about inoculating the char on Canns ROLS page, did so with fish emulsion and ewc, grinding it is a bitch, used a rubbermaid tote and cinderblock, about to start running it over with my truck, tired of smashing...


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 6, 2013)

klcconnors said:


> Dank, thanks I do have and use that equipment, I currently aerate every watering, aerating for about a day or so. I also have General Organics black forest humic acids, *if someone could explain that with chloramine treated water, that would be awesome.*
> 
> MO, on my way to Lazy Acres in LB to grab coconut water powder and organic lemon juice thanks!
> 
> Rrog, thanks I read about inoculating the char on Canns ROLS page, did so with fish emulsion and ewc, grinding it is a bitch, used a rubbermaid tote and cinderblock, about to start running it over with my truck, tired of smashing...


An organic ingredient like molasses will neutralize the chlorine/chloramine in your water. A small amount (tablespoon) in 5 gallons of water, bubbled for 24 hours is supposed to do the trick. I'm not certain with the humic acid, though. Maybe someone else could chime in on that.


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## Rrog (Nov 6, 2013)

Compost / humic acid will bind up the chloramines pronto. Biochar will not.


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## colocowboy (Nov 6, 2013)

3 of these http://www.filtersfast.com/Pentek-158182-Filter-Housing.asp
and 1 of these: http://www.filtersfast.com/Pentek-PD-1-934-Sediment-Filter.asp
and 2 of these: http://www.filtersfast.com/P-Aqua-Flo-CB-10-10-Carbon-Block-Filter-Cartridge.asp
A couple minor plumbing connections and your golden for about a year.


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## qroox (Nov 6, 2013)

fattiemcnuggins said:


> Awesome results dude! I just finished my first plant in reused no till, and I'll be damned it came out great. The coconut water is great, haven't been able to try the barley or aloe yet. This is the recipe I am using now:
> 
> 
> One Cup Alfalfa Meal
> ...



daaamn i;m making mine..!!


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## hyroot (Nov 6, 2013)

molasses neutralizes chlorine. It breaks down chloramine into ammonia. Then the ammonia takes twice as long as chlorine to evaporate..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 6, 2013)

This is what I use left over from my aquarium days...stuff is liquid gold! Lasts me at least a year and no issues. http://www.seachem.com/Products/product_pages/Prime.html


----------



## DANKSWAG (Nov 6, 2013)

So much good help... no one on this thread should have any issues growing organically except time to find answers. I am surely blessed to have access to such a wealth of knowledge and experience... Everyone should take an extra toke for being so helpful .... On me of course....stop by anytime and you can sample all you want while visiting...


----------



## Rrog (Nov 6, 2013)

I've got my whip vape whipping!


----------



## klcconnors (Nov 6, 2013)

Alright just got back from Lazy Acres, to my surprise the "natural living" section girl had no idea what coconut powder was and said they didn't have it... I knew they did because I called and talked to someone who sounded older and wiser than an off-in-ten, part-time worker. Luckily I grow and smoke weed uh? So then a random worker helped me and found it after finding me searching for a needle in the haystack...

*Coco Hydro* (lol) is what it is called and it contains sea salt so please chime in... here is the link to the product... http://bigtreefarms.com/index.php/page/product/72/89/89
Evaporated Coconut water
Dextrose
Sea Salt
Ascorbic Acid (v-C)

While searching for that I came across *Coconut Secret* Raw Coconut Crystals (organic coconut sap crystals), http://www.coconutsecret.com/crystals2.html
-Abundant source of Minerals
-17 Amino Acids
-Vitamin C
-broad-spectrum B vitamins
-Nearly Neutral pH

It is rich brown in color and rich tasting, like a coconut molasses or brown sugar.... 

by the looks of it, it appears to be a triple whammy for my chloramine treated water, providing coconut, molasses, and vitamin C

Let me know what you all think, either way I will use them up for personal consumption.

Should I still add Lemon Juice?


----------



## Rrog (Nov 6, 2013)

Coot's experience with this was that really you needed the fresh white coconuts and that bottles / concentrates were not the route. I like to recommend a seed enzyme tea. Like Barley Seed


----------



## reverseosmosis420 (Nov 6, 2013)

Hey Rrog, any idea what sites coots and gascan migrated to?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 6, 2013)

^^^^They are on seeddepot.nl. People don't post much on there. Theres not much going on there like here


----------



## reverseosmosis420 (Nov 6, 2013)

Out of almost 1200 pages on 2 threads on ICmag... I read posts by only 3 individuals.... The others are not important   THANK YOU SOOOO MUCH for that information! You're the best!!


----------



## Chronikool (Nov 7, 2013)

Finally found my way over here from the LED section....i didnt actually know there existed more outside of it....(im very closed minded) ..3 days later and i am finished reading this behemoth of a thread...just in time to realise im not wearing any pants....  

So thanks to: Rrog, Hyroot, Sullivan666, Headtreep, Cann, Mohican, Green Santa, Jubiare, Spliffandmylady, Rising Moon, Nick Nasty and Fattiemcnuggins for all the info i have tried to take in. 

Now a few questions:

*COMFREY:*

I am keen to get into using the Comfrey that i have on my property. Have seen a few references to it but no definitive way of how to use it.

What i am doing currently: Picked the leaves and left in a uncovered bucket with water in it. (that was about 4 weeks ago) Looking at it now...the leaves have dissolved and it appears black liquid...and sure has a nose to it. (but no ears...) So is this ok to dilute with water and water it on? What about bubbling Comfrey leaves?


*DANDELIONS: *

Went out picking Dandelion flowers yesterday (i know what you are thinking....yes i put my pantz on...  ) So i dry these out...and food process them. What is the best way to use them? As a mulch on top of my pots or bubbled in a tea? 

So Comfrey liquid on the left....picked Dandelion flowers on right

*DIASTATIC MALT POWDER:*

As a Artisan bread maker....'The Pantless Baker'....(enough of the pant jokes...and wait im not a bread maker!) no i just have some Diastatic Malt powder....as i understand it the method is: 1 teaspoon per 4 litres of water and add to soil. Can i bubble it? will it change its enzyme make up or degrade the product and its usefulness for the soil/plant(s)? 
*
COCONUT WATER:*

Since i have the diastaic Malt powder...do i actually need this for enzymes aswell? i have seen the word 'diversity' mentioned in this thread a lot....so maybe it would be still helpful in my applications. I am going to try it in my home made bubble cloner as i have heard of success with coconut water with clones. 

I think there are a few people who are doing this: My food scraps are now transformed into a 'scrap smoothie' after the blending i give them. Also picking up my mulcher today so i can break up those stubborn leaves and help my brother microbes out a bit. 

Thanks all..


----------



## hyroot (Nov 7, 2013)

Seed sprout tea's with pumpkin seeds ? Any thoughts 


I have like 5 pumpkins. Stripped one down , cooked seeds. I will be sick of them after this batch. So will have left over seeds.
making pumpkin cheescake with the flesh too.... Hehehe


----------



## NickNasty (Nov 8, 2013)

Well I can answer about the comfrey and will leave the rest to others. With the comfrey tea you want to do a 10:1-15:1 ratio, 10-15 parts water to 1 part tea/concentrate. Comfrey is a strong fertilizer so realize this and start light. I prefer to let my leaves dry and crumble it and add it as an amendment to my soil and I also add it as an amendment to my compost.


----------



## Chronikool (Nov 8, 2013)

Thanks Nick....And do you just put the fresh leaves on the compost or do you dry them 1st aswell?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 8, 2013)

the leaves and dandelions you dry out and use as mulch or feed to worms. dandelions can use fresh or dry in a tea. The malted powder no need to bubble. You don't need coconut water if using diatistic malted powder. its made from pureed seed sprouts.. Veggie and fruit scraps, I freeze for a few days. Then thaw, puree and feed to worms.


----------



## Chronikool (Nov 8, 2013)

So the Diastatic Malt powder has all of the same enzymes as the coconut water? no difference? 

What is the point of freezing the scraps before putting them in the compost or feeding worms.....just seems like another step...


----------



## hyroot (Nov 8, 2013)

Chronikool said:


> So the Diastatic Malt powder has all of the same enzymes as the coconut water? no difference?
> 
> What is the point of freezing the scraps before putting them in the compost or feeding worms.....just seems like another step...


When the scraps thaw out, they break down faster. When froze , if any kinds of bugs are present, they die


----------



## Chronikool (Nov 8, 2013)

interesting theory...I have good compost so any bugz on my scraps will be consumed/killed by the 'goodies'...plus im blitzing them into a paste...so the breaking down is minimal anyway...and i dont have any room in my freezer...  

Wouldnt it reduce the goodness in the scraps by freezing them?


----------



## Rrog (Nov 8, 2013)

Diastatic malt is barley. Both Barley and Coconut are seed embryos but I think the coconut has higher Cytokinin. I dunno, I'm still making coffee...


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 8, 2013)

Good point about the thawing and killing pests. My wife hates the frozen garbage (I told her its not garbage it's f'n worm food) in the freezer. When thawed out, it does turn to mush so you can skip a blender cleaning. I'm doing a test know on their favorite foods. They're loving these fall leaves and cucumbers! Think the leaves will give me some good fungi balance.


----------



## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

I agree with Rrog and Coots. I personally have been shifting towards everything sourced local or grown by myself. Coconuts fresh is the way to and I think once I'm done with all my powders I will start making my way back to the Asian markets. 

My new regiment with my chapin sprayer 1x per week:

Drench Coconut water, aloe, silica, and SST 2.0 with mung beans. Mungs beans are easy to source and easy to sprout. 

IPM drench on mulch for fungus gnats I will use some type of herb like lavender tea (bubbled) or even dr bronners when I'm lazy. Neem teas are great as well but tread lightly especially with smaller plants.

Foliar pretty much same aloe, silica, IPM, x 1 per week. Sometimes I will do a kelp meal bubble and hit the leaves but I keep noticing better results with balance. Especially irrigation. Made a huge difference investing in some instruments to measure soil tension. Real important in larger containers imo. 

I hope all of you are well. I've been missing the community a bit and wish the best on everyone's gardens and overall health. 

Please do keep up the purist ideology and let's make a difference in the cannabis world and knock down all this cannalore fake BS!


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

Remember this will not only a revolution of sorts but possibly a new evolution if you catch my drift.

Peace love and light


----------



## boblawblah421 (Nov 8, 2013)

Thanks headtreep...

This thread has opened some new doors for me, and many others.

I have no idea who you are, but you kick ass, and I wish you nothing but super awesomeness in all aspects of life.


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> Thanks headtreep...
> 
> This thread has opened some new doors for me, and many others.
> 
> I have no idea who you are, but you kick ass, and I wish you nothing but super awesomeness in all aspects of life.



Nobody special just here to speak the truth and improve overall cannabis quality globally to the best of my ability. I spend most of my time offline anymore researching and healing myself but I hope things change and my energy will come back full force!

Thank you all for giving this thread a read through. We all deserve credit here for changing peoples outlook on cannabis cultivation.


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

The power of NEEM. Neem soap is pure awesome. If you really want to feel clean wash up with neem, haha. Of course we use it in our soil and part of the IPM programs etc for our plant health but for human health is just such an interesting plant.

I ended up ordering some neem seedlings cause I figured they would be great for my grow area. Nice little team tree in the corner or 2 is awesome. Growing a variety of plants in your grow rooms will assist with keeping most of the unwanted creatures away. Medicinal plants and culinary plants also mask odors. 

Neem is a blood purifier, detoxifier and promotes healthy skin and wound healing. It's a general health promoter and something to take a closer look at than just giving it to the plants.

We all should be feeding ourselves "almost" what we feed to our soil/plants etc. Aloe, coconut, neem, kelp, and the like. I've been using Aloe for stomach irritation and it's awesome. 


Knock out unwanted soil pest with 5 gal bubbled solution:

1/2 cup neem
1/4 kelp meal

bubbled for 24 hours and drench see how they like that. That's a good recipe from the net I've been using for over a year after stopping BTI. Great for overall health like a once a month type thing. Be careful with young plants.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 8, 2013)

I tried aloe for acid reflux last night and couldn't even take it...nobody told me you had to get the stuff inside the leaf


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## Chronikool (Nov 8, 2013)

Nice....putting a brew on now...


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I tried aloe for acid reflux last night and couldn't even take it...nobody told me you had to get the stuff inside the leaf


Innerflllet as with most cacti/succlants for future reference when consuming


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 8, 2013)

I have a dumb question about top dressing compost. What happens when the top dressing dries out? Do your precious creatures die?


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I have a dumb question about top dressing compost. What happens when the top dressing dries out? Do your precious creatures die?


If you're referring to microbes and such they will go dormant. Worms, insects will dig deeper for moist and optimal conditions or simply die. You do not want your soil to dry out in a living organic soil or LOS environment. It's especially important to keep it evenly irrigated including the top mulch for best results. If you don't want to guess grab an irrometer or the like. Correctly irrigating is highly important from the very start of making a solid successful long term living soil. 

That's why we using a wetting agent like aloe for our peat before we mix our soil together. Peat is a bunch of dormant microbes when you give them water and air they come alive and that's the start basically.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 8, 2013)

Thanks for reply. Do all the microbes go dormant or do some die off? I just bought a big aloe plant yesterday to foliar spray some bleached seedlings. I also mixed it with coconut water and drenched. What do you guys recommend for a good mulch? I've collected a ton of leaves for my worm bin, and also have some coco chips laying around. Interesting fact on peat...never heard of it having dormant microbes. Wonder if my guano has dormant microbes too.


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

Teaming with Microbes is a great place to start reading about such a topic. Microbes are constantly dieing, propagating, hibernating, fighting and eating but you learn more than reading the book I referenced. My best advice, as this has been credited to many others, that I've heard this from, is to simply "observe nature". I find that most real quality organic books discussed in thread has a pretty clear message especially One Straw Revolution. "observe nature" Mulch: Cannabis leaves, straw, coco chips, wood chips, all make for a fine mulch. Even sand in a pinch.


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

The point to ROLS or LOS or whatever we call it these days is creating a complete and well balanced biomass that we can constantly keep alive like a pet or child and grow basically any type of plant. Biofarming is will become virtually free at some point. Free nutes anyone? Grow your own nutes? haha who would have thought? I love plant cannibalism.


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## headtreep (Nov 8, 2013)

The point to ROLS or LOS or whatever we call it these days is creating a complete and well balanced biomass that we can constantly keep alive like a pet or child and grow basically any type of plant. Biofarming will become virtually free at some point. Just got to put in a little work. Free nutes anyone? Grow your own nutes? haha who would have thought? I love plant cannibalism. It's nice to be back and right now I need this time on the PC as I don't have many options being posted up in bed. TV sucks... I did however score the Beavis and Butthead collection to watch


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## hyroot (Nov 8, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I tried aloe for acid reflux last night and couldn't even take it...nobody told me you had to get the stuff inside the leaf


try chocolate milk with chocolate syrup or dark chocolate almond milk


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## Mohican (Nov 8, 2013)

I opened my worm bin today to throw in some more goodies and everything was gone! It just looked like worm castings with twigs and eggshells! I moved some of the top layer away and the worms are still there  No freezing, no food processing, just big chunks fed to them and it is all gone! Hope they enjoy the new food.


Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 8, 2013)

I was curious about my 2 week old bin this morning, so I dug around the bottom and found a balled up hermaphroditic secreting orgy. They just eat and bang all day.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 8, 2013)

headtreep said:


> Teaming with Microbes is a great place to start reading about such a topic. Microbes are constantly dieing, propagating, hibernating, fighting and eating but you learn more than reading the book I referenced. My best advice, as this has been credited to many others, that I've heard this from, is to simply "observe nature". I find that most real quality organic books discussed in thread has a pretty clear message especially One Straw Revolution. "observe nature" Mulch: Cannabis leaves, straw, coco chips, wood chips, all make for a fine mulch. Even sand in a pinch.


Just started reading _Teaming with Microbes_ almost a week ago! Amazing so far. Can't get into it as much with the whole 'straight coco with tea' thing I have going on. I'll start a real mix when I harvest my super amended vermicompost. They're shitting neem, kelp, and alfalfa bricks! I don't even see anymore crab shell meal...how do they eat that?!


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## Mohican (Nov 8, 2013)

I am afraid to put my hand in it - I'll just pull back a fleshless bone!


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 8, 2013)

headtreep said:


> If you're referring to microbes and such they will go dormant. Worms, insects will dig deeper for moist and optimal conditions or simply die. You do not want your soil to dry out in a living organic soil or LOS environment. It's especially important to keep it evenly irrigated including the top mulch for best results. If you don't want to guess grab an irrometer or the like. Correctly irrigating is highly important from the very start of making a solid successful long term living soil.
> 
> That's why we using a wetting agent like aloe for our peat before we mix our soil together. Peat is a bunch of dormant microbes when you give them water and air they come alive and that's the start basically.


This is where I think passive hydro can play a great role in ensuring soil is watered. I have utilized my own passive watering system in PHOGS (passive hydroponic organic grow system). I only water my plants when using teas, and to do so I have to let the passive reservoir run dry before soil will dry out enough to water with teas. But once I due water with teas I quickly fill my reservoir as this will prime the wicking pump (root system) to pull water from the reservoir below into the soil web. 

So I am even more excited about organic gardening even more knowing the self watering system I use will keep ideal moisture levels in the soil web for microbe activity. Which probably explains why when I find a cloth pot where water is not wicking due to poor contact with rock layer in reservoir I notice slower growth cause the pot tends to be more dry then wet.

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## headtreep (Nov 9, 2013)

Werd DANKSWAG. I personally try not to get too fancy and the blumats were a simple solution and I hear now people run teas through them. I wouldn't personally. You can automate soil just like hydro if you get creative. You can get professional irrigation systems as well but they require power and the less power the better for me.


This is a post from another thread I wrote but I wanted to share it here.

*It was funny I was talking to an employee from a local nursery and he fed me the same line of brainwashed bullshit that organics cost too much to produce vs conventional methods lol. Even outsourcing your own natural amendments instead of growing or making your own compost for example is much cheaper than using chemical ferts and the long term damage the do. 

Cannabis is a magnet for attraction of toxins sort of. Phytoremediation is the process. In a nutshell cannabis or hemp is used to clean up metals, pesticides, solvents, explosives, crude oil, polyaromatic hydrocarbons, and toxins leaching from landfills.

Think about that when you put that shit in your media. "just flush bro" lol!!!! haha

Source: http://www.hemp.net/news/9901/06/hem...byl_waste.html


Quick in easy lesson on the topic on the observation nature. Sick crops = sick animals = sick humans and it goes down the line. It's not a difficult concept grasp.

Oh well, cancer and ill health is good business. *


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## headtreep (Nov 9, 2013)

Living soil and thriving biomass.


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## headtreep (Nov 9, 2013)

Not the greatest pic but that's about week 3 and the cultivar is Kamikaze (Legion OG x Pestilence). I'm very impressed.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 9, 2013)

Blu mat rep told me to hand water teas..."That's what I do" he said lmao!!! I'm a little old school with slow periodic watering. Now going to start adding aloe insides (not outsides) HK. I water with love <3.


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## Rrog (Nov 9, 2013)

I really like my Blumats in combo with fabric pots.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 9, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I really like my Blumats in combo with fabric pots.


I was considering them with airports. The idea of steady proper water with air pruning really has me curious.


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## hyroot (Nov 9, 2013)

If you have say 10 plants or more. Would the blumats be a pain in the ass? With lines going every where? If not that could help. Some days I'm so busy that I have to water before work in the morn before the lights shut off. I'd rather water when they wake up. But I'm usually busy then.


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## Rrog (Nov 9, 2013)

Guys daisy chain dozens of plants.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 9, 2013)

I too absolutely hate watering. Watering slow doesn't make it easier. When I get my real soil mix, I'll give the blue mats a go, as I won't need teas hopefully.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 9, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I too absolutely hate watering. Watering slow doesn't make it easier. When I get my real soil mix, I'll give the blue mats a go, as I won't need teas hopefully.



If you decided you don't want to spend all the money on that gear to automate your watering, think about what you can do with passive hydro and gravity feed reservoir?

No pumps needed or a timer, plants water themselves and water is replaced by gravity feed float value. Anywise just a suggestion... take a look at my PHOGS journal for reference.

BONUS I FOUND THIS AWESOME PDF THE INSTANT EXPERT GUIDE TO MYCORRHIZA by Ted St. John, Ph.D.

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## Mohican (Nov 9, 2013)

I love those yellow cards for catching gnats and such. They are so expensive though. I wonder if anybody has made a recipe for making those cards?

Hey Red - I hope you are keeping snot rags close by hehe


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 9, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> If you decided you don't want to spend all the money on that gear to automate your watering, think about what you can do with passive hydro and gravity feed reservoir?
> 
> No pumps needed or a timer, plants water themselves and water is replaced by gravity feed float value. Anywise just a suggestion... take a look at my PHOGS journal for reference.
> 
> ...


BONUS GROW YOUR OWN MYCHORRIZHA

WOW GROW YOUR OWN MYCHORRIZA






*A myccorhizae factory:* The basic procedure is for the farmer to construct a simple enclosure out of landscape fabric, fill it with a mixture of compost and vermiculite, and then transplant pre-colonized bahiagrass seedlings into the mixture. Over the course of the growing season the bahiagrass spreads within the enclosure and the mycorrhizal fungi spread and reproduce along with it. When the grass dies back in the winter, the farmer is left with a concentrated mycorrhizal inoculant that can be incorporated into his or her potting mix when starting seedlings in the greenhouse the following spring. (http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml)


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 9, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> BONUS GROW YOUR OWN MYCHORRIZHA
> 
> WOW GROW YOUR OWN MYCHORRIZA
> 
> ...



Could this be done with a different pre-colonized ground cover or is there something special about bahiagrass?


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## NickNasty (Nov 9, 2013)

I am going to get those blumats at some point its just 72 plants half of them in 15 gal pots is a lot of fucking blumats especially when you need 4-5 for 1 15gal pot. Rrog I may have you guide me thru what I need to do when I finally decide to set it up. I want it clean not a web of hoses I am tripping over.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 9, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Could this be done with a different pre-colonized ground cover or is there something special about bahiagrass?


Check out the Prokashi IMO series 1-5 on yooboob. 

Mo, I blame it on my cold.


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 9, 2013)

Hey evdryone not trying to change subject but check this chart out i recently got thru email from peaceful valley, 
nice information on cover crops, such a huge variety and diversity. I thibk i saw some of that bahiagrass seedlings in there

http://groworganic.com/media/pdfs/CoverCropSolutionsweb2012.pdf


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## LoRd MeGaTR0N31 (Nov 9, 2013)

Great info


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## headtreep (Nov 10, 2013)

I'm bored and I admire Indian farmers and their 1000s of years of knowledge. 

[video=youtube;zUI1PI-YgC0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUI1PI-YgC0[/video]


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## Crab Pot (Nov 10, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I too absolutely hate watering. Watering slow doesn't make it easier. When I get my real soil mix, I'll give the blue mats a go, as I won't need teas hopefully.





headtreep said:


> I'm bored and I admire Indian farmers and their 1000s of years of knowledge.
> 
> [video=youtube;zUI1PI-YgC0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUI1PI-YgC0[/video]


I'm interested!


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## Crab Pot (Nov 10, 2013)

Whoops... I didn't mean to post the above post.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

Couple weeks ago, I posted about 200plus pounds of cooked soil (in my basement) that became infested with seedling eating mites. Of course I got great advice from the gurus here. I hauled all damn 12 cft outside...ugh. After medicating my lower back, I dug up 5 gallons of foot deep humus from nearby woods, and mixed it in my dirt...along with some leaves. I went out to check on the pile today and snagged up a bucket to bring in for my aloe plants. Inspected it closely with a loop and didn't see anything crawling or dead. I let it warm up and propagated my aloe plant. Now my question is what really killed those effers? Was it the natural predators in that dirt I added, the cold weather, a combination, maybe something else I can't think of, or eggs are about to hatch soon


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## cbtbudz (Nov 10, 2013)

from some Philippines gardening.


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

Red- What's in the ininitial soil for pest amendments? Crab? Neem?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Red- What's in the ininitial soil for pest amendments? Crab? Neem?


Neem, crab shell, bagged EWC. I think I over saturated it. It was also half HF soil conditioner. Here's the HF description:
finely screened, pH-balanced forest humus, earthworm castings, and bat guano, not to mention beneficial microbes that stimulate root development and help plants access nutrients in the soil. We also add humic acid to help increase the uptake of important micronutrients.


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

I think huge air is big-time important. 1/3 of my soil volume = aeration. A few years ago I was farting around with having air pumped through the bottom of the soil. Air brought moisture with it. Was a fun fling, but I'm here to tell ya... all that air really pumped up the fungal volume. Whew!

I guess I was left with the more-air-is-better attitude. Fabric Geopots, lava rock, pumice, biochar.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

Agree 100%. I turned my cooking soil well every 3-4 days for 6 weeks. I threw in some left over hydroton and grow stones I had laying around...along with the perlite crap that was already in mix.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 10, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Could this be done with a different pre-colonized ground cover or is there something special about bahiagrass?


I've learned why Bahiagrass was selected...

*On-farm production of mycorrhizal inoculant* in test enclosures at The Rodale Institutes farm. Douds chose bahiagrass as a host plant "because it's a tropical grass and the first frost will kill the shoot growth"--so it won't escape to become a new local weed and won't harbor any pests or pathogens that might affect either resident crops or northern native grasses.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 10, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I think huge air is big-time important. 1/3 of my soil volume = aeration. A few years ago I was farting around with having air pumped through the bottom of the soil. Air brought moisture with it. Was a fun fling, but I'm here to tell ya... all that air really pumped up the fungal volume. Whew!
> 
> I guess I was left with the more-air-is-better attitude. Fabric Geopots, lava rock, pumice, biochar.


Rrog, speaking of aeration of the soil, where can I find rice hulls bulk cheap? Feed store? Who besides us organic fanatics would use this product on a large volume? 

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

Feed store, yes. Another great amendment. Not local, but really good nonetheless. Makes good biochar, too


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

When I was into aquarium substrates, there was one that was like 1/4 inch black lava rock. Very porous, bagged with live bacteria, but very pricey. Read the description. http://www.amazon.com/CaribSea-Eco-Complete-20-Pound-Planted-Aquarium/dp/B0002DH0QM


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

I hate buying bacteria... When I'm literally sitting at the bottom of an ocean of them already... In every breath I take... millions.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

Rrog said:


> I hate buying bacteria... When I'm literally sitting at the bottom of an ocean of them already... In every breath I take... millions.


That's how I'm starting to look at everything...unless I can talk to sales and get a deal  Lava rock is a pain to get into little pcs. I've used this stuff and it's much more uniform and porous than Lowe's LR.


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

Collecting BIMs by definition means they're already suited to your local neighborhood.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Collecting BIMs by definition means they're already suited to your local neighborhood.


I just want the little lava rocks. No fancy shmancy bacteria or even bag. Small porous round uniform lava rock.


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I just want the little lava rocks. No fancy shmancy bacteria or even bag. Small porous round uniform lava rock.


get pumice.. its the same thing


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

hyroot said:


> get pumice.. its the same thing


Can't find it locally. You have a good link? I swear this exact reason is why I'm liking coco mixes.


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

The pumice is lighter and floats!


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Can't find it locally. You have a good link? I swear this exact reason is why I'm liking coco mixes.


I get it at my local farm supply. check nurseries and farm supplies.



which clover would be better for cover / companion crop? . dutch white or crimson? The crimson clover is half the price of the dutch white clover.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

Hyroot and Psu together forever. Pumice newb


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 10, 2013)

Porous drainage material is where its at! Interested to see how my coco and tea turns out.


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

Hyroot- doesn't matter. One might be taller is all. No matter on that, either.


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Hyroot- doesn't matter. One might be taller is all. No matter on that, either.


Same thing with red clover? I just read about its medicinal properties for cancer. My sister has cancer and Her friend is going through kemo, Red clover is cheaper than the other 2.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 10, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> When I was into aquarium substrates, there was one that was like 1/4 inch black lava rock. Very porous, bagged with live bacteria, but very pricey. Read the description. http://www.amazon.com/CaribSea-Eco-Complete-20-Pound-Planted-Aquarium/dp/B0002DH0QM


Hi RCM,

I use Higromite it has silica and is awesome for aeration too. I've seen 2 liter bags for $20

DankSwag

Higromite provides several advantages over expanded clay pebbles, coco and rock wool. It's high in silica, pH neutral, and has the best moisture retention and release on the market today. Completely reusable, the varied shapes of the rocks promote porosity, allowing more oxygen to reach the roots. Higromite provides the grower with much more precision in watering and management of nutrients. In side by side studies with other growing mediums, plants grown in Higromite exhibited more compact growth, improved stem length, quicker establishment, better bloom breaking, improved leaf expansion and an increased overall yield. Comes in a 21 liter bag.


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2013)

I ended up ordering red clover seeds. $8.98 for 1 lbs. including shipping.


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## Rrog (Nov 10, 2013)

You'll dig it.


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2013)

Rrog said:


> You'll dig it.


hahaha Nice pun


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 11, 2013)

Like the way you think Dank...always looking to improve. We need to get each member to grow out barley, aloe, VC, Clover, chia, Rrog can do the coconut tree, nematodes, etc. Just a big bartering soil web.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 13, 2013)

Anyone have any experience with Black Gold Garden Compost? I'd like something to hold me over until VC bin is done. I've heard mixed reviews on Black Gold products and wanted some opinions. Thanks.


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## headtreep (Nov 13, 2013)

GSC Thin mints LOS Soil








Gota Kola and Betal leaf LOS soil


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## headtreep (Nov 13, 2013)

[video=youtube;MIJ3iU5p7aM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIJ3iU5p7aM[/video]


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 13, 2013)

headtreep said:


> GSC Thin mints LOS Soil
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey nice plants! How are those gota hola and betal doing for you?


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 13, 2013)

I have one neem tree growing along side my gals. Getting a neem seed to pop is quite difficult. Apparently they don't store well, so to be successful with germinating a neem seed, they need to be harvested and germinated immediately. 

People in India chew on neem twigs instead of going to the dentist.

I keep a steady rotation of aloe, kelp, spirulina, chlorella, DE, and even neem going into my fruit smoothies. These ingredients also go into a raw fish/meat/egg/organ and oat/rice/veggie slurry I make for my dogs.

If it's not good enough for me, it's not good enough for my plants/animals.


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## headtreep (Nov 13, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I have one neem tree growing along side my gals. Getting a neem seed to pop is quite difficult. Apparently they don't store well, so to be successful with germinating a neem seed, they need to be harvested and germinated immediately.
> 
> People in India chew on neem twigs instead of going to the dentist.
> 
> ...


Very accurate post on neem and thanks for the tips for the animal. I plan to start a little neem farm since it's such a beneficial plant.


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## headtreep (Nov 13, 2013)

The betal and gota kola are thriving, thanks!


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## Rrog (Nov 13, 2013)

Bob- I like the dog diet you have there!


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 13, 2013)

Four dogs on the property that all stay on a raw diet. Hopefully one day 100% of my human/dog/plant food will come from my own property.

Growing plants like neem and coconut trees is difficult in a temperate climate I'll tell ya what. Two houses crammed full of plants that will die if left outside in the winter is what I am working with.

I would suggest seedlings from a reputable place as locally as possible as far as any potential neem tree farming is concerned. Also, I have found that the roots of a neem tree prefer much less water than what we here might be used to. I give the soil that my neem tree is in, and the tree itself a light misting with aloe, kelp, coconut, seed enzyme tee, aact, etc maybe two or three times a month. Then it gets some sort of soil drench about once a month. It is in my compost with about 35% lava rock and 35% expanded shale.

Unrelated note: I have an electrical question that can be found in the Growroom Design Forum. Anyone with electrical experience and confidence please check it out. Thanks.


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## NickNasty (Nov 13, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Anyone have any experience with Black Gold Garden Compost? I'd like something to hold me over until VC bin is done. I've heard mixed reviews on Black Gold products and wanted some opinions. Thanks.


It was one of the better store bought composts in my area when I used it a few years ago. I have used it plenty in the past with good results.


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## Mohican (Nov 13, 2013)

I used their seed starter mix a few years ago. It was fine. 

Cactus mix has almost the same composition as Vics. It is a fast draining mix and it has already been cooked. I bought it from a local nursery for my plumeria cutting. I was amazed when I read the ingredients.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 13, 2013)

I had my local hardware store order me 2 cft of the Black Gold Garden Compost. Love when they order for you...free shipping


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 13, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Anyone have any experience with Black Gold Garden Compost? I'd like something to hold me over until VC bin is done. I've heard mixed reviews on Black Gold products and wanted some opinions. Thanks.



Hey RCM...

I use the one with the mater on it, for seedlings (OMRI) It is supposed to be the consumer line of Roots Organic from what I read I could be wrong. 

But it is nice for seedlings and clone starts! Could use a little more aeration, once I get my bulk rice hulls I will be substituting perlite with it. 







DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 13, 2013)

Okay I threw caution to the compost pile and went for it.

What your are looking at are clones transplanted 2 days ago from solo cups into cloth soil pots that just had these four lovely gals harvested from them.
They have taken off and increased in size substantially. I also added to the root zone about 2 tsp of xtreme Mykos30. Hmm I have it on hand need to use it.
Seriously I plan on creating my own from composting Bokashi Style as soon as I get that going I can wait to use the latche from it.








NOTE the top right clone took a serious blow to the two developing branches from a recent first topping in my mainline training program, apparently the Drill Sargent that day got a little too rough on the new recruit and mainline training turned into a supercropping resulting in an actual break in one developing branch. Hoping that branch in which will produce ultimately half of the 8 top I was going for. URGH. But I am happy to report for going through such stress it is bouncing back well and the training incident was a two days prior to transplant and wasn't looking so good as it does now.

Now for the big twist to all this. Because of how I am changing my PHOGS setup where these girls will go to flower I did not want to increase their overall soil container size using these one gallon cloth pots is all I found I really need for the size and duration of the perpetual grown.

So after cutting out the main branch and leaving as much of the root system that was attached I then yes tapped the side and tapped from the bottom the soil out in a single form. Now of course so of the top soil fell away. I also essentially tapped out some of the bottom soil layer and around the sides so I could reinsert intact root system with majority of soil attached to roots. This allowed me to fill the bottom third of these soil pots with fresh highly amended organic soil. I then placed this soil covered root ball back into container. I now was able to use my fingers to pull soil from middle to sides to allow clone transplant easily of course after I added the above mentioned mycro product. Then I placed some more fresh soil on top and watered with rain water. Also been misting leafs with rain water. 

Hope I haven't violated or broken any ROLS code on this one. So anywise I will post posting on this. Was thinking of adding soluble from Myco Madness since I have it too.
Anywise appreciate any feedback on this. I need to know if I should grow comfrey, stinging nettle or find inexpensive sources? I hope to discover that I can make a mycro based tea that will kick ass over what I paid for (may moons ago) in the past!

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 13, 2013)

A very good read....

It speaks of everything I have read in ROLS so far about producing a bountiful diverse amount of Mycorrhiza and then some...

http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml

DankSwag 
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## hyroot (Nov 13, 2013)

I think I like the mung bean sst more than barley sst. I see more growth the next day.. Thanks headtreep.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 13, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I think I like the mung bean sst more than barley sst. I see more growth the next day.. Thanks headtreep.



hyroot, 

SST?

Is 2.25 a pound too much for kelp meal, and .75c a pound for alpha meal? 

DS


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## hyroot (Nov 14, 2013)

SST seed sprout tea

that's a good deal for alfalfa and kelp.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 14, 2013)

Going to fill a leaf humus bucket for a sample today. I know the worms love it. Thinking about substituting some peat and coco with this.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 14, 2013)

Well I know where to get yards of half composted leaves and grass clippings for a few bucks! Problem is it's still steaming. About to make some rice wash and ACT to spread things up a bit. Nice earthy texture, very dark, and smells "humussy" lol. Put some mostly broken down stuff in a solo cup to see how it drains and retains...I like it so far.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 14, 2013)

lol, i love humussy smells.


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## hyroot (Nov 14, 2013)

i love the smell of kelp meal after its been soaking or bubbling.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 14, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Okay I threw caution to the compost pile and went for it.
> 
> What your are looking at are clones transplanted 2 days ago from solo cups into cloth soil pots that just had these four lovely gals harvested from them.
> They have taken off and increased in size substantially. I also added to the root zone about 2 tsp of xtreme Mykos30. Hmm I have it on hand need to use it.
> ...


Hey DankSwag, what kind of LED's are you using there homey?


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 14, 2013)

Shwagbag said:


> Hey DankSwag, what kind of LED's are you using there homey?


Yo Shwagbag 

I flush that out in my PHOGS Journal, nonetheless the one I am using is as a veg light is under powered UFO but enough for what I need of it.

The LEDs I use in flower are Dorm Grow you will see those in my Journals. What is impressive is that four two foot plants of which only the top 8 inches allowed to flower produced nearly 3 ounces with an an LED that draws only 140 watts supplemented with two 15 watt bloom (red) spot light LEDs and two 15 watt CFL 2700k and one t5 20" at 2700k. Less then 200 watts combined in a 2x3 tent. 

The ladies in the above post are the clones of the 4 gals that just went through my PHOGS journal, I will be taking clones of these as I mainline train them to continue my perpetual grow.

Oh yeah I have upgraded to the 450 BLOOM LED that draws 300 watt can't wait to swap out the 250 GROW (8 band) LED I am current using in flowering.

Just with any light I will continue to utilize spot and other supplemental lighting to ensure plants are fully lit up that there no areas where light is not penetrating.

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 15, 2013)

Nothing like LED and organics. New school lighting with old school farming. BTW Dank, going to fabric store with daughter asap. Can't wait to post my Gucci fabric pots LMAO!

Does anyone know where to get 1/4"-3/8" lava rock?!


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 15, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Nothing like LED and organics. New school lighting with old school farming. BTW Dank, going to fabric store with daughter asap. Can't wait to post my Gucci fabric pots LMAO!
> 
> Does anyone know where to get 1/4"-3/8" lava rock?!


I was thinking custom ones for guys too, say charcoal cloth pots with stencil sprayed images in black and white colors, skull n cross bones, hazard material sign etc.... or even now that your looking at specific cloth patterns find some camouflage material that would be great! Cause for guys it has to be practical and Camo pots would have their use!


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 15, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Nothing like LED and organics. New school lighting with old school farming. BTW Dank, going to fabric store with daughter asap. Can't wait to post my Gucci fabric pots LMAO!
> 
> Does anyone know where to get 1/4"-3/8" lava rock?!


hahah I remember when led wasn't cool, now it seems like its the cool thing to do =)


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## Rrog (Nov 15, 2013)

View attachment 2895563

LED in ROLS

Note the clover living mulch


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## Chronikool (Nov 15, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> hahah I remember when led wasn't cool, now it seems like its the cool thing to do =)


ha...LED's...waste of space....


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 15, 2013)

Rrog said:


> View attachment 2895563
> 
> LED in ROLS
> 
> Note the clover living mulch


Rrog,

I transplanted some clover from my lawn into one of my pots it seems to be doing okay, is there a problem other then what else I might bring in from outside?

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 15, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Nothing like LED and organics. New school lighting with old school farming. BTW Dank, going to fabric store with daughter asap. Can't wait to post my Gucci fabric pots LMAO!
> 
> Does anyone know where to get 1/4"-3/8" lava rock?!


Hi RCM,

As far the rock I use it is silica Higromite google it there are many hydroponic sites that carry it. Amazon used too.

This is what I use in PHOGS, specifically the passive water reservoir I use is filled with these and the cloth pots rest on top of wet rock where water line is kept below cloth container. Water is wicked up passively these rocks are good wicking agents with plenty of silica to benefit the health of the plants. Also lower roots designed to uptake water primarily will grow into the rock\water reservoir. I believe this allows me to HOT LOAD my soil in this system to ensure plenty of available food source for biological activity to occur transforming into readily available plant food. The benefit is if the soil is too hot where plants would normally find their water and thus induce burn just drinking water for photosynthesis. Having roots in plain water reservoir allows I believe plant to drink without overdosing on nutrients. At least in what I seen. I've placed plants in soil they should of burned in watering normally done top down. But with passive up take and wicking action taking place in the soil I haven't seen this light white tips is about it. At plants seem into flower to have less discoloration and nutrient loss. Just my observations using the silica rocks in PHOGS. 







DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grow On


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 16, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Hi RCM,
> 
> As far the rock I use it is silica Higromite google it there are many hydroponic sites that carry it. Amazon used too.
> 
> ...


Pretty good. However, I want porous!!! Actually found a descent deal on 1/4'-3/8" lava rock! I won't need much either as I'm substituting peat with coco...sorta combing hydro and organics. I just need to experiment with percentages. Mixed up a 2 gallon half cooked bag as a drainage/retention experiment:

3 parts EWC/compost
2 parts coco
1 part lava rock
Amendments of course

That's 16% (OCD lol) real drainage mat'l taking up less nute space, 35% coco that's IMO perfect drainage/retention/CEC all in one, and 50% goodness. I only want to use water, occasional botanical, and enzyme teas. Gotta have that living mulch too! As of watering this 2 gallon grow bag two days ago, with a bunch of airholes drilled in, it's retaining good moisture and not that muddy or compact. Prob gonna tweak it too 20% lava and 50% coco before mixing up a bunch. Sorry to ramble, but this damn coffee got me wooooo!!!


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## Rrog (Nov 16, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Rrog,
> 
> I transplanted some clover from my lawn into one of my pots it seems to be doing okay, is there a problem other then what else I might bring in from outside?


Should be groovy!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 16, 2013)

Rrog said:


> Should be groovy!


What kind of clover do you go with Rrog? Everything's pretty dead here in the cold. Is clover more of a bacteria or fungi 'lover'?


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## Rrog (Nov 16, 2013)

I'd go for a small clover from Amazon. Anything is good, just that some are taller than others. Not sure what the clover likes but they sure grow well in the pots!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 16, 2013)

Who knows...might end up with a 4 leaf


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 16, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Pretty good. However, I want porous!!! Actually found a descent deal on 1/4'-3/8" lava rock! I won't need much either as I'm substituting peat with coco...sorta combing hydro and organics. I just need to experiment with percentages. Mixed up a 2 gallon half cooked bag as a drainage/retention experiment:
> 
> 3 parts EWC/compost
> 2 parts coco
> ...


Actually they are porous, they have tiny holes in them to trap air. But not the same as the lava rock. 

When water is run over them they sound like rice crispies.. crack snap and pop!

Look closer at the picture you will see these tiny holes.

DankSwag
Grow On My Friends Grown On


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## hyroot (Nov 16, 2013)

I got red clover seeds in the mail from amazon 2 days ago. They showed up 1 day early. From what I could find. Crimson clover grows the tallest. About 12 inches. That one is prefered for colder climates. Dutch white and red clovers grow to about 6 inches. I chose the red for medicinal properties. I have a few people who are cancer patients. The red clover could help them and my mj garden until I get pennywise going. My cheese strains tested .


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## Shwagbag (Nov 16, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Rrog,
> 
> I transplanted some clover from my lawn into one of my pots it seems to be doing okay, is there a problem other then what else I might bring in from outside?
> 
> ...


I would be pro active and hit everything with some neem if you can. That's the best way to bring in mites and other little monsters.

I ordered some tree seedlings this year and I'll be damned if the cherry trees didn't infect my garden with mites. been fighting them for months now, hoping to finish them off this weekend with bombs and azamax. 

Better safe than sorry!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 16, 2013)

Don't want to mess with my homies...


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## hyroot (Nov 16, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Don't want to mess with my homies...
> View attachment 2896531View attachment 2896532


nice green this time. your inbox is full too


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 17, 2013)

Well just ordered my bonzai 1/4"-3/8" lava rock...yeah baby. Now shopping for an ebay seller that'll do a living mulch bundle. Thinking mini,white, and crimson clover to start. Also thinking about your grass DANK...I'll just steal everyone's ideas and combine them


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## hyroot (Nov 17, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Well just ordered my bonzai 1/4"-3/8" lava rock...yeah baby. Now shopping for an ebay seller that'll do a living mulch bundle. Thinking mini,white, and crimson clover to start. Also thinking about your grass DANK...I'll just steal everyone's ideas and combine them


I like to make a layer of sea salt topdressing. lol


check amazon

http://www.amazon.com/White-Clover-Pasture-Wildlife-Attractant/dp/B004OSVF44/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_img_y

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004Z3KJH2/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/Crimson-Clover-Seed-Flowering-Cover/dp/B004OSW2DM/ref=pd_bxgy_lg_img_z


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 17, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I like to make a layer of sea salt topdressing. lol
> 
> 
> check amazon
> ...


Sea salt it is! Brilliant!!!


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 18, 2013)

hey every one, 
hoping someone can point me to the right direction, wanted to start experimenting with spider predators(had small problem late in flowering and want to be extra cautious for next grow)
here's a list I found of different spider mite predators, according to a website called http://www.benemite.com 
Phytoseiulus persimilis
P. persimilis is an excellent predator of spider-mites in humid greenhouses with moderate temperatures. It does best on dense low growing plants and is used extensively on field strawberries in California for control of spider mite.
Mesoseiulus longipes
M. Longipes is frequently used to control spider mites in hot greenhouses on tall plants. It is also used on plants inside under lights. It tolerates lower humidities than P. persimilis.
Neoseiulus californicus
N. Californicus is an excellent general predator for control of spider mites on roses and vegetable crops in greenhouses. This predator can also help suppress cycalmen mite in strawberry fields and broad mite in greenhouses. It tolerates higher temperatures and lower humidities than persimilis.
Neoseiulus fallacis
N. fallacis predator is similar to N. Californicus but is more effective in northern climates on Mint, Hops and Strawberries.
Galendromus occidentalis
G. Occidentalis is an excellent predator of spider mites on fruit trees, grapes and corn in the hot inland valleys of California. Tolerates high temperatures and low humidities.
Amblyseius swirskii New Culture
This generalist predator shows promise in controlling whitefly and thrips.

In the website it goes into each type, but i rather get real input with fellow ganja farmers.


Last couple thoughts, would IPM and aloe/sillica spray kill them, and would my lady bugs essentially dominate? I want to start a war documentary with these bugs, wouldn't that be cool?
...stoned


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 18, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> hey every one,
> hoping someone can point me to the right direction, wanted to start experimenting with spider predators(had small problem late in flowering and want to be extra cautious for next grow)
> here's a list I found of different spider mite predators, according to a website called http://www.benemite.com
> Phytoseiulus persimilis
> ...


Seems like a lot of effort when you can just use a foliar of... diatomaceous earth.... use alone very effective or with other ingredients to get their benefits as well..

http://www.richsoil.com/diatomaceous-earth.jsp

DankSwag,
Grown Organically My Friend Grown On!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 19, 2013)

Good ROLS with neem, crab shell, vermicompost, and nematodes is all you need. I've heard DE doesn't work when wet DANK?! Reed everything Rrog does for pest prevention.


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## colocowboy (Nov 19, 2013)

You wet the DE so it can get an even coverage, then the water evaporates leaving a film.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 19, 2013)

colocowboy said:


> You wet the DE so it can get an even coverage, then the water evaporates leaving a film.


Thanks for clarification. I personally prefer some moist living compost. Keep it moist with mulch. I haven't seen a critter 3 weeks in my new run and I use a lot of leaves in mulch.


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## hyroot (Nov 19, 2013)

When you do a foliar of de. It stains the leaves. The de never comes off. I was concerned it might have clogged the stomata


worm castings, compost, predatory mites, neem meal, will take care of pests in soil. Ladybugs, peppermint foliar or lavender foliar and neem foliar will take care of leaf dwelling pests


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 19, 2013)

My ladybugs left my tent  no pests to prey on...sigh


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## Shwagbag (Nov 19, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> My ladybugs left my tent  no pests to prey on...sigh


I don't necessarily think that's something to complain about!


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 19, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> My ladybugs left my tent  no pests to prey on...sigh


Not a bad sign...


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 19, 2013)

hyroot said:


> When you do a foliar of de. It stains the leaves. The de never comes off. I was concerned it might have clogged the stomata
> 
> 
> worm castings, compost, predatory mites, neem meal, will take care of pests in soil. Ladybugs, peppermint foliar or lavender foliar and neem foliar will take care of leaf dwelling pests


I use a pinch of DE in my foliars quite often. If used sparingly, and frequently, I feel that the silica/trace mineral/pesticide attributes still come out, but I don't run the risk of suffocating my plant with that film, or dicing up any of my earth worms.


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 19, 2013)

I asked about predator mites because im in late flower andl i wont spray DE on my nugs. I do use DE in
some of my IPM sprays. But like i said i want to get into predator mites because i like the idea behind it


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## GreenSanta (Nov 19, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> My ladybugs left my tent  no pests to prey on...sigh


 look in your fans and lights (if LEDs) or smart pot cracks ...


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 20, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> I asked about predator mites because im in late flower andl i wont spray DE on my nugs. I do use DE in
> some of my IPM sprays. But like i said i want to get into predator mites because i like the idea behind it


I've thought about predatory mites a few times, but never made the purchase.

If you are concerned later on in flower I'd say predatory mites are your best bet. I forget which place it is, but one of the sites that sells them has a good deal on a blend of three of the seemingly most effective predators. Personally, I'd go with that blend of three.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 21, 2013)

Okay you dirty soil heads,
I've been currently running with straight coco and teas. I'm getting average results...nothing bad or special. My average being Hyroot's record breaker  Anyway, I've been doing some moist dirtball and crumbling tests. Ingredients being several commercial composts, EWC, coco, 1/4"-1/2" lava rock. Here's what I came up with out of a dozen solo cup mixes:
1/3 x compost (equal parts Black Gold, EWC, and Coast of Maine lobster compost)
< 1/2 x rinsed coco
1/4 x lava rock 
Amendments/cu ft:
1/4 cup kelp, alfalfa, crab shell, neem cake 
1/2 cup dolo lime (bad math)

I'm going to just have a 2-3 week cooking time and wanted some opinions on amendments. Anything I should add? Should I cut with another mix? My VC might be ready just in time for planting. I'll be watering with a few AACT, sst, and nute teas. Foilar every week with aloe, coconut water, sst, kelp, etc. Thanks for reading!


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 21, 2013)

It took me a while to kick the coco habit too.

Less is way more.

Until I completely stopped buying the bulk volume of my media, I had no idea what was really going on.

Never again will I purchase a bag of compost, or castings, or coco, or whatever. It's all just fucking dirt. In my opinion it's kind of like eating a mango from walmart in the middle of the winter. You know damn well there has got to be something wrong with that mango. Relocating dirt across borders is the same thing. That poor bag of dirt lost it's chance to be a part of a thriving ecosystem as soon as it was bagged up and put on a truck.


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## NickNasty (Nov 21, 2013)

Red Carpet You need some minerals. Azomite or glacial rock dust or basalt or look for something local.


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## Rrog (Nov 21, 2013)

Local! Local is best


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## NightOwlBono (Nov 21, 2013)

My uncle in Alberta bought a couple truck loads of dirt for his garden,he diddent do any research and bought off a farmer getting rid of contaminated dirt.
some industrial weed killer,only grass will grow in the Half he spread it on.and it took like 3 years for the grass to establish.
he figures in 5-10 years the grass will clean the dirt enough to try growing again....

long story short ,buy local but do research


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 21, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Red Carpet You need some minerals. Azomite or glacial rock dust or basalt or look for something local.


I've been thinking about just relying on kelp, alfalfa, compost, and lava rocks for traces. How much do you really need? I notice my Cal is off the charts compared to Mag. I wonder if it would best be applied via foliar or tea. Would a tea with Epsom salt kill microbes? I'm trying to keep ingredients down if I can.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 21, 2013)

Rrog...have you ever tried rice flour for mag? It's loaded with it. Maybe some fermented LactoB would be Mag nificent.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 21, 2013)

Shwagbag said:


> I don't necessarily think that's something to complain about!


They are like Gypsy Bugs really as in Hobo Lady Bugs, nomads! Or more like the women I know that devour everything a man has and moves on....

DS


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## NickNasty (Nov 22, 2013)

Since I started using rock dusts my density and weight to size of bud ratio have increased dramatically so much that I can now fit 8 oz's in a jar that only use to be able to fit 4-5 oz's. I believe minerals are one of the most overlooked and important things missing in most gardens. Your plants don't need a lot to survive but they will be healthier and happier with them then without them.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 22, 2013)

NickNasty said:


> Since I started using rock dusts my density and weight to size of bud ratio have increased dramatically so much that I can now fit 8 oz's in a jar that only use to be able to fit 4-5 oz's. I believe minerals are one of the most overlooked and important things missing in most gardens. Your plants don't need a lot to survive but they will be healthier and happier with them then without them.


I've been reading up on just Mag...as I have tons of Cal. Rice flour is loaded with it. Thinking about amending my VC with it. I'm sure the wormies would love it.


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 22, 2013)

Yeah I have recently become a fan of using a diverse mineral package in my soil too. Thanks to you awesome people...

Glacial rock dust
Basalt
Calcium Bentonite (acts as a magnet to any soil bound toxins, as well as being a mineral supply)
French Green Clay
Oyster Shell
Diatomaceous Earth
Dolomitic Lime
Expanded Shale
Diatomite Rock
Local dirt!!! (Dig deep under your compost pile for them there yummy local minerals)

And of course stuff like alfalfa, kelp, molasses, coconut, etc.


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 22, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I've been reading up on just Mag...as I have tons of Cal. Rice flour is loaded with it. Thinking about amending my VC with it. I'm sure the wormies would love it.


I have not read on this matter, but it makes sense. Let us know how that works out for you.


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## hyroot (Nov 22, 2013)

I just have been adding soft rock phosphate for minerals plus phos. Plus with kelp meal, neem meal, and aloe I figured all minerals are covered. I can't find basalt locally. I don't want to pay shipping costs.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 22, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I have not read on this matter, but it makes sense. Let us know how that works out for you.


Epsom Salts are magnesium sulphate. If you're looking to supplement mag, its a very easy and cheap way to provide it either in the soil, top dressed or through watering.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 22, 2013)

Shwagbag said:


> Epsom Salts are magnesium sulphate. If you're looking to supplement mag, its a very easy and cheap way to provide it either in the soil, top dressed or through watering.


I think he was referring to the rice flour. There's lots of foods high in Mag that the worms will love. As far as soil amending goes...what's high in Mg and low in Ca? I know Epsom salt is a great foliar, but would it kill microbes if tea fed/TD.


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## Biochar (Nov 22, 2013)

Have you heard of Miller Soils?? This to has bichar (why I used it as may name) Its been great and I don't have to mix it at home. Find Reds Premium mix. Its all in one soil but I do add some tea........


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 22, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I think he was referring to the rice flour. There's lots of foods high in Mag that the worms will love. As far as soil amending goes...what's high in Mg and low in Ca? I know Epsom salt is a great foliar, but would it kill microbes if tea fed/TD.


Red, if you want something slow release as a soil amendment you can use Greensand. It has a good amount of Mg. If you're looking for a quick fix, just add/disolve 1-2 tsp's of epsom salts per gallon of water for a soil drench.

Why are you thinking you need Mg? IMO, there should be plenty already in your soil. 9 times out of 10 when there's a deficiency diagnosed as Mg it's something else.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 22, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Red, if you want something slow release as a soil amendment you can use Greensand. It has a good amount of Mg. If you're looking for a quick fix, just add/disolve 1-2 tsp's of epsom salts per gallon of water for a soil drench.
> 
> Why are you thinking you need Mg? IMO, there should be plenty already in your soil. 9 times out of 10 when there's a deficiency diagnosed as Mg it's something else.


I have tons of Ca...which prob isn't a bad thing with a coco mix, and not much Mg. Greensand takes years. I was wondering if the Epsom would hurt microbes.


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 22, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I have tons of Ca...which prob isn't a bad thing with a coco mix, and not much Mg. *Greensand takes years*. I was wondering if the Epsom would hurt microbes.


Feed it to your worms


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 23, 2013)

st0wandgrow said:


> Feed it to your worms


Rice flour is cheaper and I'm sure the worms would love that. I'm really interested in a 'super' VC loaded with minerals from selected foods and some amendments. Greensand sounds like some good grit too.


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## May11th (Nov 23, 2013)

I use green sand. Great for potash too


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## Shwagbag (Nov 23, 2013)

Greensand is nice. I've never used it, mostly because its not available locally. Epsom salts should not hurt the microbial activity. Subcool's mix uses it, and I've also used it in soil drenches as well with no noticeable issues. G'luck!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 23, 2013)

I don't know why, but I don't follow other mixes. People hate coco yet it gives you yield and taste. I've achieved similar results with *whatever *practical mix. My brain is strained with all these recipes I've been reading...all different of course. Just going to stop buying and start reusing. My worm shit should take care of me.


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## hyroot (Nov 23, 2013)

If I were to do all coco. I would get air pots, and do nutrient teas, flood and drain. I've tried coco twice and had problems and didn't like it. Rols semi vegan pure organic grows have produced the best quality and the most resin production.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 23, 2013)

Coco is easy once PH and Ca buffered. It's really so newby, it tricks the more experienced growers into over thinking. I'm just a huge fan of its texture. After reading more, it probably isn't the best thing for a no till since it'll just break down eventually. I'm going to get a bunch of 10g fabric pots and do the live mulch with VC topping...I don't see anything easier, cheaper, or beneficial. I see the light now Rrog lol.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 23, 2013)

Speaking of seeing has anyone heard of or used "Berlese Funnel"..

Essentially it is a low tech easy way to get a census of the the critters in the soil to gauge health of soil.

One takes a 2 liter bottle or similar plastic container cuts the top of to create a funnel using the neck and a few inches of the body to invert into a funnel chamber.

A screen is placed inside and soil sample placed in it. The screen needs to hold the soil but allow critters to escape the heat. 
This funneled device with soil is placed in another sturdy container with a board base and lid. For the plastic neck bottle will need to fit through lid and lid will need to support weight of the funnel with soil. 

Next place a very warm light close to the soil to create heat, the critters will retreat down into the container. 
For about 4 to 6 days.

Then once collected one can examine with a magnifying glass to visually verify critter count.

One should see hundreds if not consider brewing up some healthy microbes to encourage a healthier population of their predators which poop em out and make our lovely ladies delicious delicacies to satisfy the cravings from all that development going on.

DankSwag
Grow Organically My Friends Grow On!


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## Mohican (Nov 23, 2013)

Mulanje 2 in the compost pile:















Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 23, 2013)

Compost tumbler, leaves, and frostiness. You go Mo!!!


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 23, 2013)

Say Mo,

How long can you grow outside down there... makes me wish I lived somewhere closer to the equator.... 

Looks great....

DankSwag


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## headtreep (Nov 23, 2013)

How about you start will a real basic mix with quality compost/vc/ewc and do a 50 coco/peat blend. You guys seem to miss the point of this thread with all the complications.

No greensand, no dolomite, no blood, etc you get all you need with quality compost, kelp, crab, neem, and minerals. Fish meal is great too for some kick but focus on building a soil with the least of amount of amendments and go on from there as an "as needed" basis. 

This will not happen over night but starting with quality will give you a first DANK run.

You don't even need SST, aloe, coconut etc. Those are all bonus. But DO KEEP UP WITH THE IPM eg neem, slicia, etc. Proactive rather than reactive.

Pot requires nothing special as it's a c3 plant like most of the plants we consume. High quality vermicompost and fuck all the rest. Seriously.....


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 24, 2013)

Genetics FTW lol!!! Yeah I recently cut out the guano, blood, and slaughter house bone meal. I really want to cut out all the rock dusts too and rely on kelp, alfalfa, VC, and compost for traces. Has anyone here tried that?


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 24, 2013)

I too have cut out all the guano and bovine products. A little fish bone meal is still in my mix, as well as loads of minerals. We'll see how it works out in a couple months. 

I had some big moms in straight compost, and they seemed to need a little extra push. I top dressed with compost that had a little fish bone meal, alfalfa, kelp, neem, and loads of minerals. My plants thanked me in a matter of a few hours. That right there makes me just a little scared to try a big bloom cycle without a little extra macro/micro. Maybe I'll try a few smaller plants in straight compost next time. Actually... I'm definitely gonna try that.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 24, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I too have cut out all the guano and bovine products. A little fish bone meal is still in my mix, as well as loads of minerals. We'll see how it works out in a couple months.
> 
> I had some big moms in straight compost, and they seemed to need a little extra push. I top dressed with compost that had a little fish bone meal, alfalfa, kelp, neem, and loads of minerals. My plants thanked me in a matter of a few hours. That right there makes me just a little scared to try a big bloom cycle without a little extra macro/micro. Maybe I'll try a few smaller plants in straight compost next time. Actually... I'm definitely gonna try that.


I love your input man. You know your poo. Am I the only one that reps you lol  Anyway I'm selling all my guano, bottled shit, etc. noticed I had some Earth Juice Microblast. I might keep that one JIC my no lime or rock dust mix doesn't work.


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## Mohican (Nov 24, 2013)

My compost pile was a year old and it was over a spot where a synthetic grow drained. The fact that I had no burning on the tips of those long skinny sativa leaves proves to me that the compost way is the best. 

I use egg shells for Ca instead of bone in my compost pile. I can't wait to start using my worm poop!

We had rain this weekend and I am keeping a watch on the Mulanje 2 to make sure it is not too wet. We had a nice sunny dry wind after each rain and it seems to be keeping everything dry.

This Mulanje is mostly a seed mom so I will just let her go until I am sure the seeds are done. Crossed her with the TGA Jilly Bean (from Agent Orange). I hope the fruity scents combine to produce something special.

We are expecting more rain on Thursday so we will see what happens. I learned last year how to read the health of these African ladies. 

This compost girl is blowing my mind!


Cheers,
Mo


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 24, 2013)

Got a question about using some ROLS for cloning medium....

Would not a nice alfalfa meal tea added to recently used soil that completed a grow cycle be okay to attempt to root some fresh clones in.

I bet if I looked more thoroughly through this thread I probably would find something on topic of using and preparing rols for clones\seedlings.

I probably would do better googling RIU on topic and probably find the post quicker that way in thris thread.

Thanks
DankSwag

Grow Organically My Friends Grow On.


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## DANKSWAG (Nov 24, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Got a question about using some ROLS for cloning medium....
> 
> Would not a nice alfalfa meal tea added to recently used soil that completed a grow cycle be okay to attempt to root some fresh clones in.
> 
> ...


Sure enough

*Recycled Organic Living Soil (ROLS) and No Till Thread - Roll It Up*

www.rollitup.org  The Grow Room  Organics&#8206;


Mar 22, 2013 - 10 posts - &#8206;3 authors
Hey folks (specifically newbs to *ROLS*), *...* -freshly rooted *clones* - couple days before transplanting add 1 tbs kelp meal , 2 tbs alfalfa meal,


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 24, 2013)

Yeah man...

I've read the first I don't know how many pages of this thread at least a dozen times. 

Good shit.


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 25, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I love your input man. You know your poo. Am I the only one that reps you lol  Anyway I'm selling all my guano, bottled shit, etc. noticed I had some Earth Juice Microblast. I might keep that one JIC my no lime or rock dust mix doesn't work.


Thanks Red...

In no way do I spend my time concerning myself with my reputation amongst other people. The only person who it really matters what they think about me, is me.

I do however, sincerely appreciate the fact that my opinion is valued. Hopefully we are all on at least what is somewhat close to the right track, and we can all continue to learn and grow from each other.

So... it's a difficult task for me to remember to "like" people's posts. This is the only social media I am on. I have a membership to a few other forums, but none of them get used anywhere close to as often as this one. I have learned to try and remember to "like" peoples' posts because I guess that's just the social media etiquette. I suppose it's time to condition myself to "rep" other users as well.

It takes a lifetime to become a green-thumb guru. I'd say it took about 23 or so years to become a dooby rollin' guru. I suppose my "able to roll a joint" reputation is accurate. 

Oh yeah one more thing Red... Personally, I'm keeping my guanos if I'm using them at this very moment or not. I can't see myself ever wanting to use a single one of the bottled nutes I've used over the years again, but the guanos may get busted out again some day. I have seen fantastic results using them in teas along with a very similar recipe as what is common amongst the ROLS farmers. 

I think I may actually wait to stock pile up some more steer, horse, goat, chicken, and rabbit poo, and then throw all my guanos in that pile along with a bale of alfalfa and some granite laden clay and let it sit for a few years. That'll be some dank ass shit. Oh yeah... I've also got another 150 or so gallons of fire ass dirt I can salvage from a couple earlier guerrilla grows. I'll just throw that all in with my doodoo mountain. Maybe I'll do a little breeding in it in a few years like Mo.


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 25, 2013)

Curious if SST is better served right away or best bubbled?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 25, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> Curious if SST is better served right away or best bubbled?


I think it works no matter what. It's just a bonus no matter what you do.


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 25, 2013)

I like mixing up my SST with alfalfa, barley, carrots and brocoli. 
I usually do 2 sst a week, my alfafa tea seems to be the best of them all, simple mix, alfafa, kelp, ewc, sillica coco, aloe and of course alfafa seed
The 2nd tea is whatever seed i choose plus ful power ewc etc etc
3rd watering is a botanical, usualy horsetail comfrey nettle
4th is kelp aloe coco sillica

(would like to improve on my mulching and ipm sprays)

now on to the results (keep in mind these are strains i worked before, and thus far, WOW! ROLS!!)

3rd run with rols
northern lights #5

















NL#5 harvest 











Popcorn nugs 






Blackwater week 7ish






Yoda og






Cool observation
all rols however notice plants to the bottom, they are veggin in 2gallon pots,
now check out top roght and left, tranplanted two days ago and they are showing more signs of growth, obviously pot size matters in ROLS












Finish this post off with some baby nettle, just started stinging yesterday  cute huh


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 26, 2013)

It makes sense right...

The bigger the pot size...

The bigger the micro heard.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 26, 2013)

After almost a week of searching and dozens of phone calls, I found rice hulls right around the corner from me LMAO!!! Literally a 1/4 mile from me, too funny considering I was going to pay out the ass for shipping. Local home breweries FTW!


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## GreenSanta (Nov 27, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> I like mixing up my SST with alfalfa, barley, carrots and brocoli.
> I usually do 2 sst a week, my alfafa tea seems to be the best of them all, simple mix, alfafa, kelp, ewc, sillica coco, aloe and of course alfafa seed
> The 2nd tea is whatever seed i choose plus ful power ewc etc etc
> 3rd watering is a botanical, usualy horsetail comfrey nettle
> ...



Nice pictures foreverflyhi I really like your vegging plants, so healthy!! And also I love the picture of the popcorn nugs , ... SO FROSTY!


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## Steelheader3430 (Nov 27, 2013)

Hey everybody. I finally made my way into the local organic earth store and those people are really smart. A lot of the things I heard from them mirrored the good info on here. Total living soil microbial minded people. All most too helpful talk, talk, talk. lol. I'm using Cann's recipe from page two as a guide. 

I'm using Cann's recipe from page two as a guide however they didn't have sphaghum peat and sold me on coir pith. http://www.bridgewellresources.com/food-agriculture/sustainable-agriculture.aspx They told me these are grown further inland so the salt isn't there to need to be leached. Any thoughts on that? Should I play it safe and rinse anyway?

http://www.barefootsoil.com/ Here is the ewc I got there. 

http://www.olyfish.com/ and the compost. It does contain a fair amount of sticks but I liked the local part and it seems good.

I got 2 bricks of coir, 2 bags of compost and 1 bag of ewc. I also got a bag of medium sized volcanic aeration, and some glacial rock dust. So I'm still missing some meals and some of the rock dust parts. I'm looking for some feedback on what I've collected so far and advise on the coir.


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## kushking42 (Nov 30, 2013)

Any cali peeps have the 707 headband in their stable? Pm me please if your willing to help a homie out..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 3, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> Any cali peeps have the 707 headband in their stable? Pm me please if your willing to help a homie out..


I got watchya need dog...holla back fo sho!


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## Mohican (Dec 3, 2013)

Mulanje #2 in the compost pile:




Cheers,
Mo


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## May11th (Dec 4, 2013)

Mohican. Could you give us full detail of that lil beast.


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## Mohican (Dec 4, 2013)

Holy Smoke Mulanje Gold seed started May 30th-ish vegged inside/outside and mainlined for 8.




Planted it in the compost pile:

















































Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 4, 2013)

Mo you would be an awesome neighbor!


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 9, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Mo you would be an awesome neighbor!


YES HE WOULD! I would really love to live next door to him. Even if it was a cardboard box!

Say I've got a lot of this growing on my property was wondering if anyone knows what it is and if it is useful for anything?



DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 9, 2013)

No clue DANK. Check this out tho.
[video=youtube;cc_Ez95jiSQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc_Ez95jiSQ[/video]
That's just part 1.


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## Steelheader3430 (Dec 9, 2013)

^ Wow red thats an amazingly informative video. Great song too.

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RedCarpetMatches again.



*


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 9, 2013)

Yeah awhile back DANK posted fungi farming with bahiagrass...just another idea I stole from him lol.


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## Steelheader3430 (Dec 9, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> YES HE WOULD! I would really love to live next door to him. Even if it was a cardboard box!
> 
> Say I've got a lot of this growing on my property was wondering if anyone knows what it is and if it is useful for anything?
> 
> ...


http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/animalsAndPlants/noxious-weeds/weed-news/feb_08.aspx 

http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/plant/weeds/Pages/profile_herbrobert.aspx
It's useful for keeping your old lady busy come spring.


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 9, 2013)

Hey so about the Bahia grass, ive read that there are diffrent types, is it safe to say they all act the same in terms of mycho production? Or is there a specific one? Also if i add these for undersowing in my not till, could it potentially add mychos to my mix? Or do i have to grow bahia grass in mass to get what i want?


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## Mohican (Dec 9, 2013)

Looks like Strawberries in the first pic and Cilantro in the second pic.


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 9, 2013)

Steelheader3430 said:


> http://www.kingcounty.gov/environment/animalsAndPlants/noxious-weeds/weed-news/feb_08.aspx
> 
> http://www.oregon.gov/ODA/plant/weeds/Pages/profile_herbrobert.aspx
> It's useful for keeping your old lady busy come spring.


So it looks like I have good useful weed in the geranium Herb Robert (of Sherwood Forest) seems to be a medicinal plant that you can eat leaves fresh or make tea.

I think I may want to test a foliar spray out of this or even a tea and give it to "test" plant to see what occurs..

Not sure what to do with the buttercup, anyone? 

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 9, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> No clue DANK. Check this out tho.
> [video=youtube;cc_Ez95jiSQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cc_Ez95jiSQ[/video]
> That's just part 1.


Interesting....


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## Steelheader3430 (Dec 9, 2013)

I just googled their descriptions. We have tons of nettle up here in the PNW that's good for nitrogen I read. That buttercup is right outside my door too.


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 9, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Looks like Strawberries in the first pic and Cilantro in the second pic.


 They kinda do uh? 

Good thing mushroom hunters don't go by looks like and those that have sometimes don't live to tell about it.

Before I personally consume what reported to be a healing herb with great medicinal power... I'm really gonna make sure I have Herb of Robert of Sherwood Forest of England of European Continent of the Planet Earth of the Milky-way Galaxy of God's Grand Universe!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 9, 2013)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I just googled their descriptions. We have tons of nettle up here in the PNW that's good for nitrogen I read. That buttercup is right outside my door too.


I was looking for nettle in my yard neighborhood when I came across the butter cup and herb of Robert
I am going to have to broaden my search for nettle....

DankSwag


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## Steelheader3430 (Dec 10, 2013)

The nettle is dying off. I still have some around due to the mild winter we've had.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 11, 2013)

I want to grow plants to feed my plants, but that would be even more room and electricity. Damn it DANK, give me some ideas. Wish I lived somewhere warm with a bunch of land. Go all Mo on it.


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## SpicySativa (Dec 11, 2013)

The only way to net a positive benefit from growing plants to feed plants is if you are growing them in the ground. Sure, legumes and other nitrogen fixers will assimilate nitrogen from the air, but all the rest of the nutrient accumulators need the nutrients to be present in the soil. It doesn't make much sense to buy nutrients, feed them to nutrient accumulating plant, then feed the nutrient accumulating plant to your indoor garden... All you are doing is unnecessarily shuffling nutrients around, not accumulating them from the earth. If you have land where you an plant things like comfrey and nettle straight in the soil, you will be reaping a positive benefit from their nutrient accumulating ability.


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 11, 2013)

SpicySativa said:


> The only way to net a positive benefit from growing plants to feed plants is if you are growing them in the ground. Sure, legumes and other nitrogen fixers will assimilate nitrogen from the air, but all the rest of the nutrient accumulators need the nutrients to be present in the soil. It doesn't make much sense to buy nutrients, feed them to nutrient accumulating plant, then feed the nutrient accumulating plant to your indoor garden... All you are doing is unnecessarily shuffling nutrients around, not accumulating them from the earth. If you have land where you an plant things like comfrey and nettle straight in the soil, you will be reaping a positive benefit from their nutrient accumulating ability.


Hi SpicySativa,

I hope I understand what you said, forgive me if I have my wires crossed...

I think you have a point if your point is on purchasing nutrients. 

However if one is feeding their homemade compost to plants in which are used for their natural use as well as becoming compost thereafter to benefit a primary crop, it would be recycling more then shuffling. If the secondary plants produce something beneficial beyond accumulating nutrients fed it would seem to me that would be an addition a bonus so it would be recycle +.

Anywise that is how it seems to me. I agree I would purchase nutrients to feed plants that I could just give directly to the plants I really want to feed, because whatever the bonus aspect that plant would give to the other as a compost it will give whether I buy nutrients to feed it or feed it compost which is free. Again that is if I understand the point you are making here. 

DankSwag


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## SpicySativa (Dec 12, 2013)

Sounds like you get my drift.

Basically I just meant think it through and make sure the benefit outweighs the cost. If you already have extra compost, pots, and a little sunlight, sure, fill up some pots and grow yourself some comfrey, yarrow, etc... It probably isn't worthwhile to waste electricity growing beneficial plants in your grow room.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 12, 2013)

I have some house hold leds with a nice spectrum, extra reflectors, pots, etc. My prob is space. Maybe I can give some horsetail, alfalfa, nettle, etc to my old neighbor to keep her busy lol. Give her a bokashi rig too


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 12, 2013)

SpicySativa said:


> Sounds like you get my drift.
> 
> Basically I just meant think it through and make sure the benefit outweighs the cost. If you already have extra compost, pots, and a little sunlight, sure, fill up some pots and grow yourself some comfrey, yarrow, etc... It probably isn't worthwhile to waste electricity growing beneficial plants in your grow room.


I get ya, ya except for my Aloe plants they love the veg 24 and leds shinning on them. They sit on the edges of the lights so I am getting most from my lights in that I am finding Aloe to be a great plant to have nearby and ready to harvest at a moments notice!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 12, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I have some house hold leds with a nice spectrum, extra reflectors, pots, etc. My prob is space. Maybe I can give some horsetail, alfalfa, nettle, etc to my old neighbor to keep her busy lol. Give her a bokashi rig too


That's awesome your getting your neighbor to grow your mulch and generate compost for you... freaking awesome. 

I should start a community garden of edibles and aesthetic plants and get the local farming community to contribute and presto an incognito source of prime compost and cover to expand material resources without being given much notice.... ...note to self get bulbs in ground....

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 13, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> That's awesome your getting your neighbor to grow your mulch and generate compost for you... freaking awesome.
> 
> I should start a community garden of edibles and aesthetic plants and get the local farming community to contribute and presto an incognito source of prime compost and cover to expand material resources without being given much notice.... ...note to self get bulbs in ground....
> 
> DankSwag


Now you're stealing my ideas lol. Imagine all the compost generated for a neighbor hood.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 14, 2013)

I took 4 big completely packed garbage bags of leaves from some nearby woods...no chemical shit from curbs. I put one bag in a 40 gal tote, got moist with a simple compost tea, and mixed in a cup of alfalfa meal. After about 3-4 weeks, the tote is already half decomposed. This will be some great worm bedding.


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 14, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I took 4 big completely packed garbage bags of leaves from some nearby woods...no chemical shit from curbs. I put one bag in a 40 gal tote, got moist with a simple compost tea, and mixed in a cup of alfalfa meal. After about 3-4 weeks, the tote is already half decomposed. This will be some great worm bedding.


Are you mulching the other bags of leaves or adding to compost? 

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 14, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Are you mulching the other bags of leaves or adding to compost?
> 
> DankSwag


That's for a little fungi experiment. Ordered some soluble fungi that'll get sprayed on em. Might have some faster leaf mould...not compost.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 17, 2013)

Check out my guard dog...

[video=youtube;sNsHXT3GP2Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNsHXT3GP2Q[/video]


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 18, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> Check out my guard dog...
> 
> [video=youtube;sNsHXT3GP2Q]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNsHXT3GP2Q[/video]


Uuugghhhh!!!! I'll stick to lady bugs lol.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 18, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Uuugghhhh!!!! I'll stick to lady bugs lol.


pussy.....


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## unkle mouse (Dec 18, 2013)

I do intend to read this entire thread, but might as well get my single question ask now,,, read the 1st page,,, and you are telling me that this method makes a LIVNG soil no tilling and almost pest proof?
REALLY?... my eyes get tired, kinda fuzzy, outta focus after 15 min r so reading computer screen.. thanks


----------



## foreverflyhi (Dec 18, 2013)

unkle mouse said:


> I do intend to read this entire thread, but might as well get my single question ask now,,, read the 1st page,,, and you are telling me that this method makes a LIVNG soil no tilling and almost pest proof?
> REALLY?... my eyes get tired, kinda fuzzy, outta focus after 15 min r so reading computer screen.. thanks


Haha.
it took me a whole day to read this thread, plus countless hours of searching, note taking etc etc. trust me very worth the entire read, even if u have to do a page a day.

yes its a living breathing soil
and yes it can be pest free if you take into acount genetics/enviroment/ipm/grower mistakes. 
Lets not forget about our benefical insect friends, although i dont think they like to be called pest, try saying that too boblawblah guard dog lol


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 18, 2013)

Cold season out here in daygo, nettle is thriving!! 
Buddah bless thy nettle and other weeds






Notice small batch of horsetail, nettle here is ready to be pulled for botanical 







When i use my nettle, i usually cut half the plant use for botanical watering, and about a month later ill rip that plant out including roots and apply botanical etc

I bellieve these are the flowers of nettle? Ive read best use before plant flowers, i have done both before and after and both give plants "praying" leaves. Nettle resemble cannabis doesnt it?
Notice resin glands and flower development







Outdoor blackwater doing well in cold season, other then a little mildew, nothing horsetail/nettle cant fix! ROLS!!!


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 18, 2013)

unkle mouse said:


> I do intend to read this entire thread, but might as well get my single question ask now,,, read the 1st page,,, and you are telling me that this method makes a LIVNG soil no tilling and almost pest proof?
> REALLY?... my eyes get tired, kinda fuzzy, outta focus after 15 min r so reading computer screen.. thanks


If you stay on top of a diverse organic pest management regiment, shit yeah your garden is pest proof. My indoor garden is inside a building that is full of bugs, and 100% of the vegetation inside is absolutely thriving. I see bugs of all sorts all the time, but only a tiny nibble on a plant here or there. Organic pest control does not eradicate all insects, but influences a healthy balanced ecosystem.

Print out the info on the first page of this thread, and read a little bit of this thread every day. Follow it. Come back and debate, ask some questions, and share your experiences. You won't be disappointed.


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## NickNasty (Dec 18, 2013)

The above post is exactly right. It is not like you will never see bad bugs but with all the good bugs and other natural defenses in place it is really hard for them to take hold. This is the problem with sterile environments because the only defense is you and you probably won't notice an invasion till it has already taken over. But if you have a healthy ecosystem full of beneficial life your soil is defending the plants for you and are attacking any invaders the moment they enter the environment .


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 19, 2013)

My ladybugs left my tent, and know I have some flyers lol. They go in and out of side holes in grow bags. Hate those effers. Time to go ladybug hunting in kitchen and bathroom.


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## hyroot (Dec 19, 2013)

When you let them loose spray them with kelp or something with potassium / sugars . It will make their wings stick for a few days. Also place them on top of soil when you let them loose.


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## unkle mouse (Dec 19, 2013)

aloe Vera cactus correct?... like this one I am growing now?
yea it's a big one,, about 5 ys old since wally world


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## unkle mouse (Dec 19, 2013)

I'm not lazy plus I love the smell of good clean soil,,, just getting started with MMJ, doing the full 8 weeks veg thing (( blue cheese strain)) ,, been gardening for a long time,,, thanks




VTMi'kmaq said:


> Yeah vegging for two months did those girls justice fer sure! Nice pics all!i'm glad that instincually i have had hints of this technique and if id payed closer attention to a family memebers methods id of realized sooner. Good info for those not lazy!


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## unkle mouse (Dec 19, 2013)

he has a lot of you tube stuff also



Cann said:


> PERMACULTURE: A DESIGNERS MANUAL by BILL MOLLISON. I cannot emphasize this book enough. This thing is literally my bible. It is also available for free online, but it will hurt your eyes to read all 600 pages off a screen. I highly recommend picking up a hard copy. You will not regret it.
> 
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/54165878/Permaculture-A-Designers-Manual-by-Bill-Millison
> 
> I got some pics for this thread...stay tuned


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## unkle mouse (Dec 19, 2013)

I got all 4 eyes on it plus both ears TY..lol




headtreep said:


> For the new people listen to this ^


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## unkle mouse (Dec 22, 2013)

ok so this Bill Mollison is great, currently watching one of his series. 6 parts... any way got a question for you science guys,,, what if a fella ( anybody) was to add to the compost mix herbal vitamin's ? crushed up of course, or more specifically .. FISH OILS.???


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## unkle mouse (Dec 22, 2013)

I did a little testing on my own, took a small piece of aloe about 4 inches by 1/2 inch, copped it up into very small bits put it in 6 cups of PH 7 water, hit it with a mixer strained the solids off, poured the water over and on my runt and my experimental clone ,, hell yea,,, 

yea I am starting my own NEW compost mix and aloe bits went in it


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## Mohican (Dec 22, 2013)

I have been using chelated copper supplements in my water for two years now. It makes fruit sweeter and your plants take on a slightly blue tinge


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Dec 22, 2013)

Here's my Bubba '76 ROLS.


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## Mohican (Dec 23, 2013)

Are they both the Bubba?


The Mulanje is still going strong. Chopped 3 more colas last night:






Got a good shot of the frost in the sun today:







Check out the stem:







Cheers,
Mo


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Dec 23, 2013)

Beautiful buds and shots Mohican, nice work man. +rep

I don't think he the second attached pic is the same plant, but it was ROLS!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 23, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Are they both the Bubba?
> 
> 
> The Mulanje is still going strong. Chopped 3 more colas last night:
> ...


I would just build a little hobbit tree house in it.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 24, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Cheers,
> Mo


I feel inclined to sit on a mushroom top and smoke a bowl with a caterpillar and some fucking gnomes when I see shit like this. 

Good times.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 24, 2013)

My plants liked the fenugreek enzyme tea.

...and the fenugreek sprouts make an excellent addition to my "fancy tuna salad", glass of fresh kombucha, and an episode of Weeds.


Can you say...

CO2 generator

Hell yeah I brew kombucha underneath my compost tea brewer, which is all in my bloom room, putting CO2 into the environment.


----------



## boblawblah421 (Dec 24, 2013)




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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 25, 2013)

I never let my worms out of there fuck station.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 25, 2013)

I've got baby worms all over the place.

Man I love this ROLS diet.


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## Rising Moon (Dec 26, 2013)

ROLS budshots!!!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 26, 2013)

Nice RM!!! What strain?! Don't know why 3g colas r saggin tho


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 26, 2013)

If i dont clean up my ogs they sag like crazy


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## GreenSanta (Dec 26, 2013)

A few pics of my recently harvested plants, everything is grown in recycled soil, on the 3rd-6th run.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 26, 2013)

GS what strains? Nice color...where's my stocking stuffer?


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 26, 2013)

Hey can someone scientifically explain why do most rols plants turn automn colors? Noticed this with some strains ive been runnin.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 26, 2013)

I think it has more to do with temp differential and genetics. Good question...love to hear some replies before googling.


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## kushking42 (Dec 26, 2013)

Its just the plant expressing itself the way it would in nature. A medium not over saturated with nitrates allowing the plant to fade. the dark hues come from the lower temps

ps Green Santa its your time of year to shine. great flower pix!


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## GreenSanta (Dec 26, 2013)

Thank you all, btw, I dont have lower temps at night, my temps are pretty steady around 22 Celsius at lights off and 25 Celsius at lights on. I grow with LEDs. I think a combination of genetic, not over doing it with the nitrogen and growing with LEDs seem to make many of my plants turn purple.

The strains from the starts are 2 close ups of Shark by CBD crew, 2 pics of SpaceGrin (Dr.Grinspoon X Spacebomb) 1 close up of ZionEaze (Revolution X Cheese), 2 pics of BlueSage (Jordan of the Island), 2 CBD Sharks again and the final 3 are another one of my crosses (SpaceBomb X Medicine), I called this cross SpacePussy.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 27, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> Thank you all, btw, I dont have lower temps at night, my temps are pretty steady around 22 Celsius at lights off and 25 Celsius at lights on. I grow with LEDs. I think a combination of genetic, not over doing it with the nitrogen and growing with LEDs seem to make many of my plants turn purple.
> 
> The strains from the starts are 2 close ups of Shark by CBD crew, 2 pics of SpaceGrin (Dr.Grinspoon X Spacebomb) 1 close up of ZionEaze (Revolution X Cheese), 2 pics of BlueSage (Jordan of the Island), 2 CBD Sharks again and the final 3 are another one of my crosses (SpaceBomb X Medicine), I called this cross SpacePussy.


Should of gave her that Avatar chick's name....space'meow' LMAO.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 27, 2013)

GreenSanta said:


> Thank you all, btw, I dont have lower temps at night, my temps are pretty steady around 22 Celsius at lights off and 25 Celsius at lights on. I grow with LEDs. I think a combination of genetic, not over doing it with the nitrogen and growing with LEDs seem to make many of my plants turn purple.
> 
> The strains from the starts are 2 close ups of Shark by CBD crew, 2 pics of SpaceGrin (Dr.Grinspoon X Spacebomb) 1 close up of ZionEaze (Revolution X Cheese), 2 pics of BlueSage (Jordan of the Island), 2 CBD Sharks again and the final 3 are another one of my crosses (SpaceBomb X Medicine), I called this cross SpacePussy.



I'm still using HID's, but am currently researching LED's. I have too much invested into my HID's to convert at the moment, but am gathering as much information as possible from as many different sources so I can make a wise purchase when the time comes to ditch these stupid HID's.

Exactly which LED's do you use, and why?


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 27, 2013)

I think I'm gonna get ROLS LIFE tattooed across my abs.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 27, 2013)

boblawblah421 said:


> I'm still using HID's, but am currently researching LED's. I have too much invested into my HID's to convert at the moment, but am gathering as much information as possible from as many different sources so I can make a wise purchase when the time comes to ditch these stupid HID's.
> 
> Exactly which LED's do you use, and why?


There're MANY knowledgeable and helpful folks on the LED threads! I'm to the point of wanting to build my own. You have many choices brother. If I were you, I'd ride my HIDs out. By that time something better and cheaper will be out...like buying smartphones. If you have a 1000w MH magnetic ballast, look into this if you're interested in vert growing and the best HID http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmea860.htm


----------



## boblawblah421 (Dec 27, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> There're MANY knowledgeable and helpful folks on the LED threads! I'm to the point of wanting to build my own. You have many choices brother. If I were you, I'd ride my HIDs out. By that time something better and cheaper will be out...like buying smartphones. If you have a 1000w MH magnetic ballast, look into this if you're interested in vert growing and the best HID http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmea860.htm


I've gone vertical before, and was in the middle of designing an organic flood and drain, vertical system when I stumbled upon this thread.

I decided to take the most colossal leap in the quality direction, as opposed to quantity.

After I have made good use of the 300 gallon raised bed I built, filled with 300 gallons of beautifully aged, diverse, recycled, composted organic matter, I'll rework that vertical system I was designing. Hopefully by then someone will have put out a dope ass LED fixture setup specifically for vertical gardening. Not exactly sure how I'm gonna manage 300 or more gallons of soil as one mass vertically, but I promise I'll figure it out.

Until then, these HID's are just too fucking hot, and I'm really starting to believe that they put off too intense, of a limited spectrum. Really, they are ridiculously inefficient in every way imaginable. This is even coming from an experienced Hydro Innovations "Ice Box" user, which by the way, is the most efficient way to cool HID's unless you just have access to as much frigid air as you like, in my experience that is, and I've cooled HID's in way too many different ways to count.

I'm quite the DIY'er myself, but some things I just don't have time for. With as many goals as I have for myself, and as much time as I spend achieving these goals, and being as self-sustainable as possible, I don't mind paying a premium price for a premium product on a rare occasion. Less than a month ago did I finally upgrade from my iPhone 3GS, so when I say rare, I mean it. Sometimes you gotta just go pay someone else to grill you up a fire ass filet mignon and leave the fucking fishing poles at the crib. I've toyed with the idea of building my own LED fixtures and solar panels, but I just have too much on my plate for those two DIY projects. 

I'vew thumbed throught the LED forums here, and elsewhere. I definitely need to read more. The proof is in the god damn pudding though I'll tell ya what. Green Santa's results reached out and smacked me in the face, so I'd love to ad his point of view to my collection of opinions.

I hate HTG, but am extremely interested in their brand new LED's. AgroMax intensity series is what they are called. Can't find anybody using them, but they look fucking sick.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 27, 2013)

IMO LED/efficient lighting wise:
1. This is the Cadillac of LED http://www.apachetechinc.com/
2. Bang for your buck http://www.bonsaihero.com/ledgrow.html
3. I bought two of these babies http://a51led.com/store/ should of had this at #2
4. Check out hyroots Induction thread
5. My 860w CMH runs as hot as a 600w HPS. My veggies/biggins are 16" away bare bulb with no fan underneath...in the winter. Not much wasted light on that bad boy.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 27, 2013)

Anyway, who here uses SRP (soft rock phosphate)???


----------



## hyroot (Dec 27, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Anyway, who here uses SRP (soft rock phosphate)???


 I do. I've been using instead of rock dust. I couldn't find any rock dust locally at the time. Every shop had ran out. The farm supply I go to gets ransacked every weekend. I picked up some soft rock phosphate powder 0-3-0 I just have been using a 1 cup per cu foot. I could probably use more. I didn't want to over do it. I've used it on only 2 batches.


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## Steelheader3430 (Dec 27, 2013)

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RedCarpetMatches again.



*

I gotta get one of those bulbs.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 27, 2013)

Steelheader3430 said:


> *You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to RedCarpetMatches again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know you wanna vert  I'm amazed at how cool they run...winter or not. CMH is as important as organics to me.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 27, 2013)

DP my bad. I do like the SRP for its cal/phos slow release and traces. Nice so far.


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## hyroot (Dec 27, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> IMO LED/efficient lighting wise:
> 1. This is the Cadillac of LED http://www.apachetechinc.com/
> 2. Bang for your buck http://www.bonsaihero.com/ledgrow.html
> 3. I bought two of these babies http://a51led.com/store/ should of had this at #2
> ...



I do concur

all other led panels are much lower quality. A51, Apache and Hans are the best and they all use top bin led's. Also I am loving my induction grow so far. I really dig the add on led pontoons too


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 27, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I do concur
> 
> all other led panels are much lower quality. A51, Apache and Hans are the best and they all use top bin led's. Also I am loving my induction grow so far. I really dig the add on led pontoons too


Please tell me you got the pontoons included...I'm hoping on spending less than 75$ for the far red in a 5x5.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Dec 27, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You know you wanna vert  I'm amazed at how cool they run...winter or not. CMH is as important as organics to me.


I finally got to order the amendments for my soil. I should be mixing next weekend. Just need more rock dust, some Mycos, tea and maybe some fungus from my local organic gurus. I don't remember what kind of fungus this guy was growing but 3 days after innoculating a tray of compost it looked like an iced sheet cake. Then seeds, then some welded wire for a trellis.


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## kushking42 (Dec 28, 2013)

sour d's almost ready for flip. 2nd round no till


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 28, 2013)

kushking42 said:


> sour d's almost ready for flip. 2nd round no till
> 
> 
> View attachment 2943517View attachment 2943518View attachment 2943519


Lookin healthy. Love the raised beds and mulch. What breeder SD?


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## kushking42 (Dec 28, 2013)

they are local dispensary staples. dark heart, queen bee, and a couple other regular vendors at the harborside.

hunting for a light dep winner for spring.


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## unkle mouse (Dec 28, 2013)

if I may,, what is #6 pic?




GreenSanta said:


> A few pics of my recently harvested plants, everything is grown in recycled soil, on the 3rd-6th run.
> 
> View attachment 2941979View attachment 2941980View attachment 2941981View attachment 2941982View attachment 2941983View attachment 2941984View attachment 2941985View attachment 2941986View attachment 2941987View attachment 2941988View attachment 2941989View attachment 2941990


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## unkle mouse (Dec 28, 2013)

spoke to soon,,,thanks




GreenSanta said:


> Thank you all, btw, I dont have lower temps at night, my temps are pretty steady around 22 Celsius at lights off and 25 Celsius at lights on. I grow with LEDs. I think a combination of genetic, not over doing it with the nitrogen and growing with LEDs seem to make many of my plants turn purple.
> 
> The strains from the starts are 2 close ups of Shark by CBD crew, 2 pics of SpaceGrin (Dr.Grinspoon X Spacebomb) 1 close up of ZionEaze (Revolution X Cheese), 2 pics of BlueSage (Jordan of the Island), 2 CBD Sharks again and the final 3 are another one of my crosses (SpaceBomb X Medicine), I called this cross SpacePussy.


----------



## unkle mouse (Dec 28, 2013)

uh huh... yall got me hooked.. already been collecting ingredient's, still do not have a complete recipe yet,, but dammit all,,, I twyin,, I twyin


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## Nizza (Dec 28, 2013)

hi everyone
i finally got some big 15 gallon containers.
i'm in a rush to get a harvest so i got happy frog and am using dyna gro nutes
i'd like to at the end of the run, if possible, recycle the soil into living soil
i didnt know if the dyna would screw up the possibility of this or what, but i'm really into the idea of re-using soil and getting compost teas and ewc's going. i have a lot more to read on here, and want to make the change over after next harvest
any tips? pointers?
besides the stuff i'll read on the first 10-30 pages


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 28, 2013)

Nizza said:


> hi everyone
> i finally got some big 15 gallon containers.
> i'm in a rush to get a harvest so i got happy frog and am using dyna gro nutes
> i'd like to at the end of the run, if possible, recycle the soil into living soil
> ...



Well, some no tillers use dyna gro sillica.. But regaurdless the whole nutrient line is petroliom based and thats what most of us no till rols folk try to stay away from. I say if u absolutely must keep the soil, then by all means work with it and add a shit load of ewc and compsost. I say start over


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 28, 2013)

I am hooked on Dynagro ProTekt for silica. I want to move on, but what's as good for Si, K, and as an emulsifier for feeding and foliar? DE is a messy foliar and isn't an emulsifier...I think. Horsetail isn't an option...yet. I've been putting rice hulls in worm bins for Si. Any reasonable suggestions? I'm not Martha Stewert or Amish, but I am local.


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## Abiqua (Dec 28, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I am hooked on Dynagro ProTekt for silica. I want to move on, but what's as good for Si, K, and as an emulsifier for feeding and foliar? DE is a messy foliar and isn't an emulsifier...I think. Horsetail isn't an option...yet. I've been putting rice hulls in worm bins for Si. Any reasonable suggestions? I'm not Martha Stewert or Amish, but I am local.


If you have seepage or open water at time, even in the city, I bet you would find horsetails, maybe there's another hindrance I don't know. I live in the urban jungle and these bastards grow everywhere. I have some rotting away with some stinging nettle in half gallon mason, hope it lasts a few months...

Or Diatomaceous earth...Food grade...Red Lake is goodah.


----------



## Abiqua (Dec 28, 2013)

Another question if I may......

Just sourced Neem leaves from the local organic grocer, apparently they carry them in bulk, which is cool, but no karanja oil. 

I have been reading thru and taking some notes, but can't quite remember somebody doing whole leaves. Could they be a little more potent than powdered? Going to grind and sift anyway...

Just wanted to check and make sure I follow the meal recipe for Neem.


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## NickNasty (Dec 28, 2013)

Neem Oil and Neem Cake are not made from the leaves but the fruits and seeds of the Neem tree. The Neem oil is pressed from the fruits and seeds and what is left is Neem Cake. I had not heard of anyone using Neem leaf as a fertilizer so I did a bit of searching and found they do use it sometimes as a fertilizer in India, it helps hold nitrogen in the soil and when added to tomato plants they showed quicker development and better structural growth. I also dug up and I thought was interesting is when used in vermicompost the worms were more active and broke down the food faster. So if I were going to use it in my garden I would probably feed it to my worms and then feed that to the plants, it would be already broken down and the worms seem to like it as food.


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## boblawblah421 (Dec 30, 2013)

Abiqua said:


> Another question if I may......
> 
> Just sourced Neem leaves from the local organic grocer, apparently they carry them in bulk, which is cool, but no karanja oil.
> 
> ...


You can definitely use the leaves from a neem tree, it just won't be nearly as potent. I have made a neem leaf tea before, and it was oily, but not like a tea made from neem seed meal, or of course, straight neem oil.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 30, 2013)

How much neem cake does everyone use for foliar or tea. That's some hot shit.


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## NickNasty (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't foliar with it but thats just me.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 30, 2013)

I did a 1 gal 36 hour brew with a tsp of ahimsa neem cake, 1T kelp, and 1 tsp alfalfa. Got a slight burn...had to be the neem.


----------



## Nizza (Dec 30, 2013)

foreverflyhi said:


> Well, some no tillers use dyna gro sillica.. But regaurdless the whole nutrient line is petroliom based and thats what most of us no till rols folk try to stay away from. I say if u absolutely must keep the soil, then by all means work with it and add a shit load of ewc and compsost. I say start over


would it work to cook it in a compost pile and re-amend it somehow?


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 31, 2013)

Okay first I want to state my ROLS is a halfway ROLS if that, in that I did not have the opportunity to properly refresh the organic matter in the soil.

I simply loosed the soil in the pots, removed base soil with root ball from previous plants that were just harvested. 
Then I placed some high end quality potting soil light on NPK a well rounded blend. However in these 1 gallon pots I was reusing for ROLS I was only able to add a couple inches to the bottom and placed new transplant with mychro's in semi ROLS pot again I really hadn't much shot to re-amend the soil and had not been really adding compost to the soil for I had these cloth pots nestled into 2 gallon pots with the hot soil that fed the plants during flower which were started originally in Black Gold Organic compost in these 1 gallon pots. 

So I really milked the cow on this one with these pots, this is how wonderful organic growing is. During the veg state of these newly transplanted clones into this pseudo ROLS pots I watered with LAB, then alfalfa tea, then later some molasses. Everything going well good growth color and leaf posture good to go. Then I thought I really want to boost my soil life, protozoa and nematodes boost, used some great OLY fish compost brewing in aerated water.

So I added these creatures and boom things start taking off exponential growth and if that weren't enough what I didn't water with the just the critter brew I used with kelp and molasses and brewed another 36 hours, got a great earthy smell no foul rotten eggs or ammonia type smell. Healthy aerated bacteria... yeppie yi yo!

Then days later signs of nitrogen deficiency in new growth stunted very light green from stem out to tips then darker light green.
Then it hit me this soil was never recharged sufficiently with nitrogen and the massive microlife added eat the shit out of what was there and for a moment in time no readily available N for a plant that just recently lifted off and was in its 2nd stage boosters and then N FUEL Shortage...err.

Major Tom to Ground Control ...... so not panicking and picking up the latest overpriced synthetic Nitrogen which would of over night solved the N issue but thus effectively rendering my soil web useless and making me use synthetic the rest of the way. YUCK FACE HERE! 

I thought through again that effectively once these beast finishing feeding they should replenish the soil and the microlife there can help balance it out if I just add some more natural organic N. So I went with some strong alpha tea again stop feeding with Molasses to not encourage another feast on the little N in the soil. I then added top dressing another inch of Oly Fish compost and plain water the last few days.

And I am happy to report the soil web is doing it's thing new soild green new growth lower leaf sets filled in well not completely of course.
So I guess I found out real life possible to generate a soil web with microlife that can eat up available N too quickly if there growth gets out of hand. So I well be watching just how much carb (molasses) to ensure I don't tip the scale and stress my babies. 

Anyone else have any similar experience when recycling pots right away?
I reference this for I think my C:N ratio got a little out of hand and had a negative effect on available N in my soil.
The following from:http://www.extension.org/pages/24726...s#.UqwHpPRDsXw

Nitrogen mineralization in the soil occurs at a higher rate when bacterial-feeding nematodes are present than when they are absent. The contribution of bacterial-feeding nematodes to soil N supply depends, in part, on the quality and quantity of soil organic matter fueling the system. Net N mineralization from decomposing organic residues takes place when the carbon:nitrogen (C:N) ratio of organic residue is below 20 (that is, 20 parts C to 1 part N). When the C:N ratio is greater than 30, the rate of mineralization decreases because microbes compete for N to meet their nutritional requirements. In this situation, N is immobilized in the microbial biomass. Incorporation of manure, compost, and cover crops with intermediate C:N ratios (ranging from 10 to 1




may stimulate bacterial growth and the abundance of bacterial-feeding nematodes, and increase soil N availability to plants.

DankSwag


----------



## DANKSWAG (Dec 31, 2013)

DANKSWAG said:


> Okay first I want to state my ROLS is a halfway ROLS if that, in that I did not have the opportunity to properly refresh the organic matter in the soil.
> 
> I simply loosed the soil in the pots, removed base soil with root ball from previous plants that were just harvested.
> Then I placed some high end quality potting soil light on NPK a well rounded blend. However in these 1 gallon pots I was reusing for ROLS I was only able to add a couple inches to the bottom and placed new transplant with mychro's in semi ROLS pot again I really hadn't much shot to re-amend the soil and had not been really adding compost to the soil for I had these cloth pots nestled into 2 gallon pots with the hot soil that fed the plants during flower which were started originally in Black Gold Organic compost in these 1 gallon pots.
> ...


My recommendation is to ensure good quality of N in biomass before increasing the numbers of bacteria eating nematodes to avoid deficiency and maintain exponential growth. But I think in long run would balance itself out naturally those over feed critters will excrete the N they eat. Letting soil dry to minimize activity ultimately would be more detrimental. So I would maintain temp and moisture levels to ensure biology continues it process, it has to shit that N back into the soil sometime. Anywise seems like a good way to gage your N level in your soil boost your nematodes and microbes and let them compete for N and see how long your plants can take it! Hopefully it's like a fad diet and they really pack it on from here out!

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 31, 2013)

I have a dumb question...is cooked soil worse than no till if you inoculate with a compost tea?


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 31, 2013)

^^^ lol... I had to repeat that question, say the question out loud, and even reword the question just to understand it.. Hehe

my awnser would be depends.

if the soil is properly cooked with the right ingrediants and ratios then it may have a head start then no till.. However is this no till soil u speak of already been amended, used and aged? If so then No till would b better. Lol


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 31, 2013)

My soil has been amended, cooked, inoculated even more, and has living mulch. It's in its first gen. Just trying to think about what I'm going to do with it in a few months. Let it be and have a second gen ready, or mix it into another fresh batch. I'm thinking two separate gens would be best right?


----------



## boblawblah421 (Dec 31, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I did a 1 gal 36 hour brew with a tsp of ahimsa neem cake, 1T kelp, and 1 tsp alfalfa. Got a slight burn...had to be the neem.


I use about a tablespoon and a half of neem for a 4.5 gallon brew. If I have kelp, or alfalfa in there as well, I will use slightly less than a tablespoon. Not one bit of burn with this recipe so far. I do also make sure to do it early in the morning, and leave only a few T5's on in the room for about two hours before I turn my HID's back on. I let it all brew in a bucket and pour it through a paint strainer into my sprayer. Solid pieces of neem will be left in the bottom of the paint strainer, which I then steep like a tea bag. I also repeatedly squeeze the paint strainer and watch straight neem oil come out.

Also... DE won't leave that greyish residue on your plants if you go super sparingly on it when used in foliars. Just use it often. As far as it being an emulsifier, I can't find an exact answer anywhere. However, with all of the different types of oily plants that I blend and put into my foliars on a regular basis, one or more of them have got to be emulsifiers.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Dec 31, 2013)

Think my neem cake burn was due to me crushing it in mortor. It was only just a little anyway. I've done much worse lol. It'd be so easy if I just grew the same strains and dialed in the teas. What's the fun in that anyway. 

Have a safe New Years earlbody!!!


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## DANKSWAG (Dec 31, 2013)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I have a dumb question...is cooked soil worse than no till if you inoculate with a compost tea?


That's not a dumb question, my understanding is and I graciously leave space for correction here is that the heat is from the bacteria feeding on organic matter "composting" it. Simply put this kills off pathogens for the aeration promote "friendly aka helper" bacteria.

It is the Fungi that we add back into soil after heat has settled and ph range comes back up I believe it tends to go acidic 4.5 to 5.5 could be wrong here but from what I recall fungi need something closer to 7 then not to really thrive. Think forest soil composure.

"Cook" your soil when adding Hot sources of N, that generally is animal poo sources guano and animal manures. Of animals I think rabbit would be awesome next to worm poo. Those silly rabbits really love a veggie diet high in alfalfa. 

Bottom line the break down of these hot N sources needs to occur for the benefit of soil web, then add Fungi Mychros to root \ soil area where roots will come into contact. Essentially your composting your new soil then adding mychros and maintaining a soil environment that is room temp and moist. Too cold, dry or wet soil will decrease microbe activity and population if extended for too long. 

Anywise good question I hope I answered it correctly and informatively!
Happy New Year!
DankSwag


----------



## unkle mouse (Dec 31, 2013)

yall be talking above my pay grade,, I'll ,get there


----------



## hyroot (Dec 31, 2013)

unkle mouse said:


> yall be talking above my pay grade,, I'll ,get there


one step at a time. before you know it you will be teaching others. Time flies..


----------



## DANKSWAG (Dec 31, 2013)

hyroot said:


> one step at a time. before you know it you will be teaching others. Time flies..


Professor Mouse in the Organic House!

Welcome to the organic matrix you choose well go GREEN!

DankSwag!


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## Steelheader3430 (Dec 31, 2013)

Dankswag do you have mycelium in your soil? There is a video on you tube of mycelium lassoing nitrogen carrying nematodes and killing them then eating the nutrients they carry. I got my amendments today, finally. Just need more glacial rock dust, another cu. foot of volcano rock and a long talk with my local organic gurus about an inoculated tea. I can't wait to mix this stuff. I'm more excited about the soil than picking a strain to be honest.


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## hyroot (Jan 1, 2014)

Happy New year all you organic heads.


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## NickNasty (Jan 1, 2014)

Happy New Year!


----------



## Chronikool (Jan 2, 2014)

NickNasty said:


> Happy New Year!
> View attachment 2947506


Was your new years resolution to grow another foot....?


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 2, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Dankswag do you have mycelium in your soil? There is a video on you tube of mycelium lassoing nitrogen carrying nematodes and killing them then eating the nutrients they carry. I got my amendments today, finally. Just need more glacial rock dust, another cu. foot of volcano rock and a long talk with my local organic gurus about an inoculated tea. I can't wait to mix this stuff. I'm more excited about the soil than picking a strain to be honest.


Steelheader,

Actually I add mycorrhizal mycelium fungi to all my plants roots on transplant from clone (solo cup) to their air pot. 
My understanding of the symbiotic relationship between my plants and mycorrhizal is that the fungi attach themselves to the plants roots and extend the ability to uptake nutrients. So seeing a mycelium loop a neamotode is cool by me for that fungi will take the N in that little worm and send it right up to the plant roots it is attached to. So instead of waiting on that worm to digest the organic N in the soil to make it available it seems to me my fungi friends speed up the process by tying up these free wheeling nematodes and squeezing the shit of them to get the N quicker to my plants roots.

I think what happened to me is simply I put too much carbon (molasses) when feeding my microbeast, essentially I expotentially grew more beast then there was N in the soil to keep everyone happy including my plants. 

Again I am happy to report all is well now and I did not have to take any major course of action expect not to feed with molasses for awhile till I get a good supply of organic N back into the soil then I will attempt to grow my microbeast again!

Speaking of educational mushroom video this is one is great..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ed71Wqb98vo

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 2, 2014)

Hey just wanted to show these 3 diffrent tea foams. Yes im aware foam doesnt mean anything. Just thought it was cool how they all have there own look/texture/color/smell. Al have been brewing 24hrs+

First sst2 alfalfa seed






Wormcasting/kelp/mollasses (nevemind the bottles! Dont know what to fuckin do with them!)






botanical tea stinging nettle/horsetail/mollasses 48hrs






i like going to the trouble of brewing teas days ahead. It kinda gives meaning to my life because i have something to look forward to


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 2, 2014)

Stepping on lava rocks a million times with bare feet sucks. Wheres my hippie friends? I needed a minion to do my bidding. My job has officially trashed my body cause I'm hurtin. An extra vertebrae at the base of my spine doesn't help. Oh well it felt good and soil is mixed. Thanks for the recipe Cann.


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## hyroot (Jan 2, 2014)

Mmmm bubbles.... Auuarrhhooauro


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 2, 2014)

hot sauce on cold pizza...yummmm


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## hyroot (Jan 4, 2014)

^^^^^ ranch


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 5, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Steelheader,
> 
> Actually I add mycorrhizal mycelium fungi to all my plants roots on transplant from clone (solo cup) to their air pot.
> My understanding of the symbiotic relationship between my plants and mycorrhizal is that the fungi attach themselves to the plants roots and extend the ability to uptake nutrients. So seeing a mycelium loop a neamotode is cool by me for that fungi will take the N in that little worm and send it right up to the plant roots it is attached to. So instead of waiting on that worm to digest the organic N in the soil to make it available it seems to me my fungi friends speed up the process by tying up these free wheeling nematodes and squeezing the shit of them to get the N quicker to my plants roots.
> ...


Been going back through my notes and came across another possible situation when it comes to Nitrogen uptake. Calcium in this ROLS I know I did not add back any calcium before reusing the existing soil\root web from previously harvested plants. 

So I grabbed some oyster shell powder for I have used dolomite lime before and unsure of its Cal\Mg ratio for a I know there is a concern in locking up or leaching out nutrients when there is too much Mg (magnesium) in the soil.

Anywise looking for some experience with application rate? Translating 4-6 pound per 100sq ft what does that look like in container gardening? Can I mix with water and water soil with? Or add top dress and water? Should I be concerned with too much Mg using Dolomite? 

Are Oyster Shells an equal to calcite limestone for calcium and other trace minerals or can calcite limestone provide those as the Oyster Shell does?

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 5, 2014)

Speaking of rocks hmm specifically crushed shell oyster shell that would be calcium carbonate... supposed to have good Cal to Mg? ratio as to not lock up soil with extra magnesium? Anywise who has used powered Oyster shell that dissolves in water with container gardening? I understand some type of debate with dolomite lime verses a calcite lime?

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 6, 2014)

^^^ lol, obviously someone doesnt take the time to read how organics really works.


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 6, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Speaking of rocks hmm specifically crushed shell oyster shell that would be calcium carbonate... supposed to have good Cal to Mg? ratio as to not lock up soil with extra magnesium? Anywise who has used powered Oyster shell that dissolves in water with container gardening? I understand some type of debate with dolomite lime verses a calcite lime?
> 
> DankSwag



Im sure some one else will bring more scientific researhc to the table, but from my understanding, dolmite takes much longer then oyster to actually start doing its magic, 
On the other hand oystershell and other rich organics in cal mag works quicker and works in cunjuction with all the other goodies we put in our soil, not to mention ph adjusting.

my soil is about 1 year old and i used a little dolmite because thats what i had at the time, i also used oystershell and i havent had a problem, i say since ive been using this ROLS soil, i top dress with oyster/egg about once a month, some what lightly, probley less the half cup. And when i do a "heavy tea" about once every other month, ill add some oystershell, seems to dissolve well.


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## GreenSanta (Jan 6, 2014)

I have calmag def, can I just mix gypsum with water and at what rate? Thanks


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 6, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> I have calmag def, can I just mix gypsum with water and at what rate? Thanks


Do you have both deficiencies or just one or the other? Pics?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 6, 2014)

sativa indica pitz said:


> you really should be ph adjusting your compost teas after bubbling them. I use citric acid to bring them down from 8 to 6.5. I'm surprised you guys aren't having issues with ph.


My tap is 8-8.3 and around 400ppm...I don't have probs. No worries when you have a living soil.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 6, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Speaking of rocks hmm specifically crushed shell oyster shell that would be calcium carbonate... supposed to have good Cal to Mg? ratio as to not lock up soil with extra magnesium? Anywise who has used powered Oyster shell that dissolves in water with container gardening? I understand some type of debate with dolomite lime verses a calcite lime?
> 
> DankSwag


Here's a great recipe from CC:
The problem with Dolomite Lime (specifically) is manifested on several levels - not the least of which is the time required for this mineral compound to degrade which has to happen for the Calcium (Ca) to become available for CE (cation exchange). Then there's the issue with the ratio of Magnesium (Mg) to Calcium (Ca) - it's completely out of whack, i.e. the Mg levels are way too high.


Here's a mix you can put together at Home Depot for chump-change: Lily Miller Super Sweet (Limestone - Calcium Carbonate) and Gypsum and you want to buy the Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) in the garden department and NOT in the home repair department - two different forms of Gypsum.


Here's the recipe:


2x Limestone
1x Gypsum


Mix thoroughly and apply at the same rate you do/did with Dolomite Lime. Now you have elemental Calcium (Ca), Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) and Sulfur which will partially be converted to Sulfuric Acid which is necessary to deconstruct these mineral compounds making them available to the plant's roots.


Note: You could replace the Limestone with either Oyster Shell Powder (pure Calcium Carbonate) or Agricultural Lime (aka Calcite Lime) which is also a pure form of Calcium Carbonate. But the above recipe will get you the benefits you're looking for in a liming agent.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 6, 2014)

Sorry for triple post lol...wait this'll be numero quattro


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 6, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> I have calmag def, can I just mix gypsum with water and at what rate? Thanks


Whats the best way too solve greensantas problem? Sucks to here u have this problem, how long has it been happening? Strange, ive never teally seen a calmag problem in ROLS..

if adding thru water doesnt work, can he recycle or compost the soil with gypsum and lime?


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## GreenSanta (Jan 6, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Whats the best way too solve greensantas problem? Sucks to here u have this problem, how long has it been happening? Strange, ive never teally seen a calmag problem in ROLS..
> 
> if adding thru water doesnt work, can he recycle or compost the soil with gypsum and lime?


it is nothing to worry about. I am not really ROLS, I recycle my supersoil et re-ammend it for now. I am in the process of making big compost piles for an eventual true ROLS.

The problem is when I placed my big pennywise into budding, she kind of turned slightly yellow, that was also after I top dressed her so it could have been nute lock... I remember in the past when my plants looked this way just a dose or 2 of cal-mag would bring things back to normal. I dont have calmag anymore and I am tempted to go buy it just for now. The plant might go back green now that the soil has dried out and is ready for watering without the addition of cal mag since the top dress contained gypsum.


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## Nizza (Jan 6, 2014)

hey guys noticed everyone here using smart pots!
found out that velcro works great for training , you just stick it right onto the pots!!
here's the stuff i got, i bet those little pots they sell you could just stick them to the brims of your smart pots in veg to start clones / seedlings at the same level for t5's and such , just thought i'd share i really think its easier than poking holes in the smart pots
http://www.velcro.com/Products/Garden.aspx

the pots i have are light gray, i don't know if the different brand geo pots whatever mine may have been "dirt pots" you could probably test it with some veclro if you have any, it has to be a specific side (i think the scratchy side)


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## GreenSanta (Jan 6, 2014)

Nizza said:


> hey guys noticed everyone here using smart pots!
> found out that velcro works great for training , you just stick it right onto the pots!!
> here's the stuff i got, i bet those little pots they sell you could just stick them to the brims of your smart pots in veg to start clones / seedlings at the same level for t5's and such , just thought i'd share i really think its easier than poking holes in the smart pots
> http://www.velcro.com/Products/Garden.aspx
> ...


been doing it for years now  way easier than tying strings and stuff.. I like to use them with bamboo sticks too (1 or 2 per container depending on size of plants), just little pieces around the bamboo and the plants really helps stabilizing everything


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 6, 2014)

While on the subject. How important is it to have airflow underneath these cloth pots? Would it be wise to place them on milk crates if they need airflow? Should I have my soil cooking in these pots? Right now they're in trash cans. When I squeeze the soil it stays clumped but breaks up easily. My compost was wet due to the climate.


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 6, 2014)

Air flow is minumum on my fabrics, in ROLS, our goal is to keep the soil moisture moderate, so having strong air flow would obviously dry things out quicker = dead microbes


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 6, 2014)

What ever do i do with these bottles? Seriously i dont kno wtf to do with them... 





I was thinking, what if i build a mountain of dirt, make bunch of teas with this shit and throw it in the mountain of dirt, then innoculate the dirt with those mushrooms that clean ecosystems. Lol got the idea from TEDtalks http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XI5frPV58tY fast forward to 8:00 he talks about how the poor contaminated soil was innoculated with oyster mushrooms and eventually the soil wS healthy enough for plants to grow. Lol im high

wtf do i do with these dog gone bottles


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 6, 2014)

I seen that the other day. Mycelium is pretty badass. I added a box of organic baby oatmeal to a bag of compost before mixing my soil. Now I'll probably get in trouble with red or something and find out that was a bad move. Lol.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 6, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I seen that the other day. Mycelium is pretty badass. I added a box of organic baby oatmeal to a bag of compost before mixing my soil. Now I'll probably get in trouble with red or something and find out that was a bad move. Lol.


Bad move my ass you technique stealer! You'll get some serious brew with that shit. Just don't brew as long and kill the fungus. I like firm undercooked brown rice too. 
Fly...send em this way for my reggie lol. PM me


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## GreenSanta (Jan 6, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> What ever do i do with these bottles? Seriously i dont kno wtf to do with them...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


use em until you run out! I am sure you have some plants fading too early every once in a while or am I wrong?! I still use some 2-4-4 organic bloom bottled nutrients from time to time!


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 6, 2014)

Well, no, my plants are always lush and green (except for one) they do get fall colors but thats allnaturAl.

honestly ive had these bottles from years back, the times i used em i got carried away with em and bam, problems. So eh, my soil is healthy and no need for this ish. I also just realized i have a whole Fing gallon of cutteng edge grow. Dont even kno why i have it lol, its like im stuck with this poison and really dont want this shit to get out into the eco system or peoples bodies.

thats why i proposed using it, then cleaning the area with oyster mushrooms... Wouldnt that be something


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 6, 2014)

I love EJ and guano. I'll trade you some clover, rice hulls, and a 100 skunk freebies!


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## GreenSanta (Jan 6, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Well, no, my plants are always lush and green (except for one) they do get fall colors but thats allnaturAl.
> 
> honestly ive had these bottles from years back, the times i used em i got carried away with em and bam, problems. So eh, my soil is healthy and no need for this ish. I also just realized i have a whole Fing gallon of cutteng edge grow. Dont even kno why i have it lol, its like im stuck with this poison and really dont want this shit to get out into the eco system or peoples bodies.
> 
> thats why i proposed using it, then cleaning the area with oyster mushrooms... Wouldnt that be something


man don't be so over the top!! use it on ornamental plants, that earth juice stuff can't be that bad for the environment!! it is not like dumping toxic chemicals or using pesticide ...


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 6, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Bad move my ass you technique stealer! You'll get some serious brew with that shit. Just don't brew as long and kill the fungus. I like firm undercooked brown rice too.
> Fly...send em this way for my reggie lol. PM me




Im not making a tea I just added it to my soil. I won't have nearly the population as if I had a brewer but it's in there.


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## hyroot (Jan 6, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> I have calmag def, can I just mix gypsum with water and at what rate? Thanks


kelp and epsom salt. kelp has calcium and epsom salt has magnesium. so make a tea. bada bing bada boom


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 6, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I love EJ and guano. I'll trade you some clover, rice hulls, and a 100 skunk freebies!


Your gonna get in trouble with the mods. Naughty ass red.


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## starcraftguy1988 (Jan 6, 2014)

Soo I was supposed to have my bodhi gear by now.... but apparently my bank did'nt process the transaction, got fraud detection from seedsman, so moral of the story is I have a world of seeds nNLxbigbud fem which i dont know anything about really, and a barneys farm pineapple chunk, which I have heard is totally underwhelming as far as potency goes... BAHHH was supposed to have 33 bodhi beans, and they're all gone now.....But anyways Im just venting...


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 6, 2014)

Your bank blocked it? I'm looking to order bodhi from seedsman soon. I hope I can get through.


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## hyroot (Jan 6, 2014)

they got fraud now too like attitude. well there another seed bank gone down. That helped make up my mind. Just going to wait for the l.a. cup.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 6, 2014)

starcraftguy1988 said:


> Soo I was supposed to have my bodhi gear by now.... but apparently my bank did'nt process the transaction, got fraud detection from seedsman, so moral of the story is I have a world of seeds nNLxbigbud fem which i dont know anything about really, and a barneys farm pineapple chunk, which I have heard is totally underwhelming as far as potency goes... BAHHH was supposed to have 33 bodhi beans, and they're all gone now.....But anyways Im just venting...


 How did you pay?! I haven't had issues with my past two recent orders. I plan on making another one real soon.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 6, 2014)

I emailed seedsman to see what kind of response they have. I hope it was just a fluke but I'll get back to you guys with their response. Starcraft are you going to look into what happened?


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 7, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Im sure some one else will bring more scientific researhc to the table, but from my understanding, dolmite takes much longer then oyster to actually start doing its magic,
> On the other hand oystershell and other rich organics in cal mag works quicker and works in cunjuction with all the other goodies we put in our soil, not to mention ph adjusting.
> 
> my soil is about 1 year old and i used a little dolmite because thats what i had at the time, i also used oystershell and i havent had a problem, i say since ive been using this ROLS soil, i top dress with oyster/egg about once a month, some what lightly, probley less the half cup. And when i do a "heavy tea" about once every other month, ill add some oystershell, seems to dissolve well.


foreverflyhi

I found the post I meant to reference from Cann (https://www.rollitup.org/organics/673002-oyster-shell-substitute-dolomite.html#post9248117)

I've used Epsom and Dolomite lime and fish bone meal to get calcium in my soil when building out a mix for my containers or amending to address any signs of deficiency. So I haven't applied Oyster Shell before not to mention my ROLS method has not been entirely complete as it has been given in setting aside pots and growing cover crop and apply full ROLS methods in recycling for use. So this has been a fly by my pants experience as I am used to cooking soil and putting into pot for new plants as opposed to reusing the soil in pot without disrupting established soil web. 

BTW the Dolomite lime I am using looks like rock salt crystals, these can be used in building soil or since they are fast acting and soluble I dissolve in water to get into soil quicker my concern with watering would with it would be disrupting any fungi activity in the soil web, though the bacteria would love it and at 22% Cal and 11% Mg I would want to water lightly this late or just add a tablespoon top dressed slight till under the soil and just water and let it slowly release. This is where Feathermeal when building soil is awesome high N with slow release calcium. But since the N is a little higher and High N directly added to soil without chance to cook first can disrupt the established soil web throwing PH off if not buffered properly. This is where Oyster Shell is great slow release great organic source of calcium and can be mixed with High N meals and guanos to buffer application to the soil keeping the PH in check.

In essence I think this dolomite lime has a place in containers at least in initially building of soil while cooking adding good amounts of calcium and magnesium.
However when building soils using High Ns like guano and various meals and their accumulation of N from those such as feather meal, fish bone meal, crab meal and alfalfa meal and the like when cooking the use of Oyster Shell or other pure sources of calcium carbonate will help keep the bacteria healthy and composting by keeping the PH in check from dropping too much during the composting processes. So I can see using light N meals with oyster shell when top dressing to amend soil that needs help would be very beneficial too. 

note to self further review on ROLS and ensuring quality organic nurtirion is readily avaiable before transplanting clones into for veg and onto flower. ROLS pot must have majority needed nutrients that can sustain and be increased with teas.

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 7, 2014)

Nizza said:


> hey guys noticed everyone here using smart pots!
> found out that velcro works great for training , you just stick it right onto the pots!!
> here's the stuff i got, i bet those little pots they sell you could just stick them to the brims of your smart pots in veg to start clones / seedlings at the same level for t5's and such , just thought i'd share i really think its easier than poking holes in the smart pots
> http://www.velcro.com/Products/Garden.aspx
> ...


Yep been using the tomato green velcro easy tear strips very convenient especially for MAINLINE training. 

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 7, 2014)

starcraftguy1988 said:


> Soo I was supposed to have my bodhi gear by now.... but apparently my bank did'nt process the transaction, got fraud detection from seedsman, so moral of the story is I have a world of seeds nNLxbigbud fem which i dont know anything about really, and a barneys farm pineapple chunk, which I have heard is totally underwhelming as far as potency goes... BAHHH was supposed to have 33 bodhi beans, and they're all gone now.....But anyways Im just venting...





hyroot said:


> they got fraud now too like attitude. well there another seed bank gone down. That helped make up my mind. Just going to wait for the l.a. cup.


It says in bright red letters when placing order that when using credit/debit...


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 7, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> foreverflyhi
> 
> I found the post I meant to reference from Cann (https://www.rollitup.org/organics/673002-oyster-shell-substitute-dolomite.html#post9248117)
> 
> ...



In reguards to dolmite and watering, i dont think thats how it works. Im not sure if the process actually disrupts the soil, however, wateringg with dolmite will not serve what we are trying to accomplish with ph and calmag.
(Lots of cool science behind all this, look it up)

From my understanding, dolmite is better used either outdoors, or in very large containers that will be aged and reused for a long period time.

thats why alot of rols folk use liming techniques that involve oyster/gypsum/egg/epsom etc etc, these ingrediants work faster and more globally then dolmite...

all this im saying is on top of my head from reading years back.. So may b wrong


as for bohdi seeds, seems like great strains. Would love to get my hands on a seed or two..


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 7, 2014)

Ok I emailed seedsman and asked about their operations status and this was their response.

Hi,

What are you talking about?


We are very much in business and sending out hundreds of orders a day.


Regards


Seedsman

so must have been a payment issue on your part Starcraft. Good luck man hope you get it worked out.


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## hyroot (Jan 7, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> It says in bright red letters when placing order that when using credit/debit...


I wont be able to order from them then. My billing address and shipping address are different. I don't plan on changing it. Maybe fam or a friend can order. i don't trust any of my friends not to do a switcharoo...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 7, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Ok I emailed seedsman and asked about their operations status and this was their response.
> 
> Hi,
> 
> ...


I would post this on the Bodhi thread. Many there order from 'Breadsman'. When I placed order last night, there was something in red bold letters about the registered card having to match your billing address...or something along those lines me thinks. Keep us posted and good luck.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 7, 2014)

Your friends suck Hyroot. Red did you pay with a debit card? Thats my intention.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 7, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Your friends suck Hyroot. Red did you pay with a debit card? Thats my intention.


I've paid twice with credit card. Also got the guaranteed stealth. I'll pay card again tonight or maybe this new Bitcoin thing. The currencies don't seem to convert right though. 210$ for a 150$ order?! Plus the digital currency varies like stock. I'm confused and they haven't responded to email in 2 days. Think they're getting slammed with the Bodhi promo cuz shits going quick. The Jabba and Lemon Zinger in my cart sold out in hours...move on to the next.


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## GreenSanta (Jan 7, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I wont be able to order from them then. My billing address and shipping address are different. I don't plan on changing it. Maybe fam or a friend can order. i don't trust any of my friends not to do a switcharoo...


you can stop calling them friends!! I would trust any of my FRIENDS to care for my garden, otherwise they are acquaintances ...


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## NickNasty (Jan 7, 2014)

Here is a good read on Alfalfa from californiacoastalrose.com


*An Organic Alternative...Alfalfa*​ *by Ivy Bodin*​ 
*(Originally written for the Roseline of Baton Rouge LA in 1996 by former member Ivy Bodin, this fascinating article won an Award of Merit presented by the American Rose Society. Ivy now grows beautiful roses in Vista, CA.)*

*"Let me introduce a plant you are familiar with and which you think may be quite ordinary --alfalfa. Yet when grown in the yard it pulls nitrogen from the air and feeds it to soil bacteria, enriching the earth even more than manure. It produces prodigious amounts of humus. It's the perfect mulch. It makes the most superior compost. It's the ideal animal feed. And most amazing of all, it has been found that tiny amounts have a growth-stimulating effect that boosts yields of a wide range of garden vegetables. Don't think alfalfa is for farmers only. It just may be the greatest garden plant ever." by Ray Wolf, "Organic Gardening Magazine", early 1980s. *


*The Background:*

*The source of the special effect of alfalfa is a substance called triacontanol. As reported in "Organic Gardening" in the early 1980s Dr. Stanley K. Ries, a horticulturist at Michigan State University began experimenting in the early 1970s with nitrogen-rich foragers as fertilizer substitutes. The results of his 1975 field trials were puzzling in that some of the alfalfa-treated plots greatly outyielded chemically fertilized plots. In the lab they isolated the active agent --triacontanol, a fatty acid alcohol which occurs naturally in the waxy surfaces of the plant's leaves. Additional testing revealed triacontanol was not a fertilizer, but a growth-stimulating substance. The less triacontanol you use, the better the results. *

*At the Organic Gardening Research Center in Emmaus, Pennsylvania, greenchop alfalfa in very small amounts was tested and indeed it was found that use of homeopathic doses of greenchop alfalfa produced greater yields than use of much higher rates. The lowest rate to be used was found to be 1.5 ounces of alfalfa for 100 square feet of garden or about one cup of fresh alfalfa. The answer explained why triacontanol proved elusive, but garden crop yields on tomatoes, corn, wheat, cucumbers and other crops increased over 40% with alfalfa use than when no alfalfa was used. *

*Alfalfa is a perennial herbaceous legume meaning it can overwinter, doesn't produce woody tissue, and has the power to take nitrogen from the air and add it to the soil. Plants have purple or yellow flowers, with leaves in clusters of threes, on alternate sides of the stem. The plant starts from a crown at or near the surface of the soil, from which 5 to 25 stems may grow. Each plant is independent, and although usually thought of as a grass, it is more like a bush. It can reach as much as 4 to 6 feet in height with a thick stem. It's botanical name is Medicago sativa and its closest relatives are clover, peas and beans. *

*Alfalfa's main advantage is its ability to "grow" nitrogen and produce a high-protein forage. As a nitrogen-fixing legume, alfalfa is the standard by which other legumes are compared. It can fix an average of 300 pounds of nitrogen per acre, per year by supporting bacteria of the rhizobia family on its root hairs. As the bacteria grow, they take nitrogen from the air and convert the bacteria, forming nodules ranging in size from no bigger than a pinhead to the size of a BB. The plant uses the nitrogen produced by the bacteria, and in exchange provides sugar that the bacteria need to live. When the plant is killed, the nitrogen in the nodules and the extensive root system remain in the soil for future use. The top parts of alfalfa offer your garden a storehouse of nitrogen with fresh-cut alfalfa containing more nitrogen at 2.7 to 3.4% than any manure. The beauty of using a fertilizing mulch that you can grow yourself should be self-evident. An ideal way to use alfalfa is to plant it in part of your garden each year and regularly take cuttings to mulch all the rest of the garden and then later turn the plants under to green manure your garden soil. Still another use could be as a cover crop kept short by cutting, to mulch out seeds in your garden beds around your precious crops. Some alfalfa patches can be left alone for as much as 10 years with 3 or more cuttings being available for harvest each year. The main ways to use alfalfa in the garden are as a soil-enricher to be rotated through the garden, or as a patch to produce a high-nitrogen material for mulch. It can be used as the energy to heat up a compost pile or as a mulch for all garden plants, slow-releasing fertilizer throughout the year.*


*The Experiment: *

*Leaning on the old maxim "practice what you preach", I tried all the afore mentioned alfalfa lore and the results were astounding to me as an avid gardener. My realm was mainly in the vegetable garden and I immediately noticed results when I used a bale of alfalfa hay as mulch. This hay also supplied fire to my compost pile. The next year and for several thereafter, I grew a small patch of alfalfa plants in my 10 x 20 foot garden. I harvested the plants for mulch used on my vegetables and noticed a significant increase in volume and quality of produce. I would simply cut some alfalfa plant and tear it into pieces and distribute just a little around each plant. I also used the alfalfa plants one year as a living mulch around my veggies keeping them cut short with the clippings used around plants. The living alfalfa plants were then tilled into the soil each fall as a green manure and I was able to stop using chemical fertilizers and move toward the organic approach to vegetable gardening. I realized the nitrogen as a fertilizer from the alfalfa, as well as the growth inducing substance--triacontanol were revolutionizing my vegetable gardening. Some early trials with the green chop alfalfa on my perrenials and a few rose bushes also showed good results. But vegetables and increased yields were where the results were in those first years of experiment. The greenchop also made a potent fermented alfalfa tea that gave good results on plants.  *


*On to Roses: *

*What does all this have to do with roses you say? Whatever you may wish to make of it! All longtime rose growers talk about the special effects of alfalfa as a fertilizer amendment to be worked in around our rose plants in varying dosages. The rose culture literature likewise has as many tidbits of advice about the use of that magic elixir--alfalfa, and the wonderful results that are produced in the queen of all the flowers. This well kept secret amendment did not pop up until I reached the inner sanctum of the rose world. When I discovered Alfalfa, the dosage was yet another mystery. Was it one tablespoon, two tablespoons, 3 cups, or 2 cups per bush, or as much as you can afford for all those bushes? I have tried all the approaches with some success, and as of lately with a cheaper source of the magic potion more available, I used more and got more vigorous results. *


*The Results: *

*Well, the flowers tend to be larger for one thing, coming from larger stems with healthier dark green leaves on them. Also the colors of the blooms tend to be richer in color saturation and maintain the color a bit longer than usual. The blooms aside, the plants themselves seem to have a prodigious vigor spurred on by that growth hormone in alfalfa. The leaves also tend to be larger and more numerous as the factory supplying all the food to generate those sumptuous blooms we strive for. Here we are talking about all roses but mainly the hybrid teas we love and groom for those beautiful cut blooms. The alfalfa in my experience tends to generate fine results in other varieties of roses also with the climbers, both modern and antique, showing the most dramatic results. Floribundas and shrubs tended to be more floriferous and hearty and old garden roses seemed to thrive on this soil amendment as compared to use of other manures from organic sources and from commerciallly produced fertilizers. It is noted that the David Austin English garden roses seemed to perform especially well with the use of alfalfa. *


*Where to get Alfalfa: *

*Locally at nurseries I have found 4 pound boxes of alfalfa meal for about $7. Also local feed stores usually sell alfalfa pellets made by Purina and other companies as an animal fodder in 50 pound sacks for about $15. Especially good are feeds for horses or rabbits. Many rosarians avoid the animal feed pellets becaue they say that there may be other things in them. Some brands do contain some molasses and salts as binding agents and flavor enhancers but is is doubtful this would produce untoward consequences. In an article in The American Rose Magazine, Dr. John Dickman recommends using alfalfa in a tea on plants and quotes Howard Walters--the Rose Rambler. "Alfalfa tea is a great Fall potion that doesn't interfere with normal fall processes. Alfalfa tea releases a growth hormone that makes everything work better. Just add 10 to 12 cups of alfalfa meal or pellets to a 32 gallon plastic garbage can with a lid, add water, stir and steep for 4 or 5 days stirring occasionally. You could also 'fortify' with 2 cups of Epsom salts, 2 cups of Sprint 330R(chelated iron), or favorite trace element elixir." The tea will start to smell as it ferments and Uggh! Use a gallon on a bush and add water back to the meal to remake several batches before finally pouring off the contents on your rose bushes. *


*The Formula: *

*From my own experience with roses I use about 2 cups of alfalfa meal or pellets per rose bush and lightly scratch it into the soil in the Spring and again in the Fall. That basically is the story on use of Alfalfa. I also believe the tea works nicely and sometimes will brew-up a small batch with about 2 pounds of pellets in a 5 gallon bucket of water aging it over a week and applying some to bushes. I add more water and keep steeping the meal for several more batches. The bushes definitely do seem to be healthier as a result and they seem to appreciate the tea in the heart of a heat- filled summer. I also like to use about a tablespoon of alfalfa meal or so on newly set out cuttings that I am trying to root, whether in pots or in the garden. I tend to get better results with this slight boost. *

*With all the information you will discover about alfalfa as a recommended tonic for roses, with attendant sparse details, the bottom-line test is to use some meal and observe the results for yourself. Whatever happens you will observe it to be beneficial and I guarantee you will have a pleasant new experience with your roses if you haven't yet tried this magic potion. Happy experimenting to you!*


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 7, 2014)

I just set up bank transfer. Seems seedsman prefers that and offers a discount. Don't tell me they're selling out red. I don't want to hear that.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 7, 2014)

I also found a product called ecofelt $5.00 a yard. Now I can put my old kenmore sewing machine to work and make some fabric pots. http://www.etsy.com/shop/FeltForLess?ref=shop_sugg


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## GreenSanta (Jan 8, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I also found a product called ecofelt $5.00 a yard. Now I can put my old kenmore sewing machine to work and make some fabric pots. http://www.etsy.com/shop/FeltForLess?ref=shop_sugg


man I dont know how much you pay for smart pots but with 1 yard you can probably only make 1 7gallons container right? + the time of making it! hyroot at a good link in the past for cheap smart bag but right now without searching I found some on amazon for 8$ per bag .. I would never go through the trouble of making them unless I could really save big!!


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## NickNasty (Jan 8, 2014)

I buy the brand Root Pouch I use the 15 gal size with handles and you can get a pack of 10 for 56$ at http://www.greenhousemegastore.com/product/root-pouch-boxer-brown-fabric-pot-longest-lifespan/growing-pouches-and-bags


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 8, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> In reguards to dolmite and watering, i dont think thats how it works. Im not sure if the process actually disrupts the soil, however, wateringg with dolmite will not serve what we are trying to accomplish with ph and calmag.
> (Lots of cool science behind all this, look it up)
> 
> From my understanding, dolmite is better used either outdoors, or in very large containers that will be aged and reused for a long period time.
> ...


Foreverflyhi, 

There are many forms (sources) of CaCK03, calcium carbonate. Mostly found in rock and sea shells. 

If you source of lime is labeled dolomite lime it has more than just Ca in it, it also has various ratios of Ca to Mg mine is 22%\11%. Dolomite lime can come in many forms that have very little effect or great effects on soil depending of form, prilled, powered and granular which one looks like dark rocks and have very little lime and then the small granular rock salt version of Dolomite Lime that I included product picture of.

The problem with lime if applied incorrectly due to initial reaction with nutrients in the can harm the plants roots by changing the PH value to rapidly, then combine that if your source has too have Mg then compound the problem by hardening the soil not to mention to much Mg in the end at flower will make your shit taste like SHIT!

This is why calcium carbonate CaCO3 is normally added when soils are being created initially to cook (compost). The CaCO3 will help regulate PH.
This is why the form of calcium and how much you add is important, for instance using hydrated lime will guarantee kill life in soil and disrupt PH instantly

Horticulture lime that is pure calcium and as you noted when using something like that folks add gypsum to ensure to get Magnesium that is not available in horticulture lime such as calcite or aragonite calcium sources which are pure CaCO3.

I appreciate your concern for me and how I am fairing with this important nutrient source. Again I am used to building my soil initially so adding calcium to containers especially in forms that are fast acting and lacking experience in adding such nutrient mid stream through a grow I wanted to touch base with someone who has experience adding calcium dolomite form I have and using oystershell which is new. Didn't want to cause to much disruption in soil PH as I add this nutrient for I believe my ROLS pots needed this. 

So again anyone with experience using the dolomite I have or oystershell any guidelines on application rates per gallon of soil would be much appreciated.

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 8, 2014)

Totally got ya DANKSWAG, 

I have had experiemce with messing with dolmite years back,
back when i was growing with my own super soil, i ran into a calmag problem early flower, so i grounded up a bunch of dolmite (what i had at the time, plus it made sense(at the time)) and i even topdress with some dolmite. the problem got worse and was not able to solve it, pluck the girl and threw about 30 gallons back in the compost. 

I have since never really had any Ph problem, and i have only used a tad bit of dolmite with my 3rd-4th round ROLS.. If i where to run into a cal mag or wtv probelm related to PH today, my only solution really is too beef up the calmag/other foods for my worms, top dress heavy with worm shit, make some strong nettle/comfrey/horsetail enzyme teas and hopefully PH problem can be fixed. But now after re reading what DANKSWAG said, and what i originally said and just said, i would probley just start over in the compost  hehehehe i have soo much dirt on my property!

Hope my experience helps


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 8, 2014)

I put my dolo lime in worm bin after crushing up. My soil is amended with 1 cup of basalt, rock dust, calcium bentonite, and gypsum. 1/2 cup cal phos (SRP) and oyster shell powder. I'd top dress lime and gypsum rather than water lime if I had to fix...for above reasons. Foliar some 1T kelp, 2T aloe, 1 tsp epsom salt, and 2 tsp liming agent (more Ca than Mg) per gal. until fixed. That's my .01 cent.


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## GreenSanta (Jan 8, 2014)

Some pics of recently harvested plants, as usual many more pics in my journal!

SpaceChemo (Spacebomb X Chemo)
View attachment 2955951View attachment 2955950View attachment 2955952View attachment 2955953View attachment 2955954View attachment 2955955

Another SpaceChemo, this one didnt turn purple instead completely faded yellow, seems to have more resin on her ... same cutting!


Chemo


BlueSage


Revolution


ZionEaze (Revolution X Cheese#1)


SpaceGrin (SpaceBomb X Dr.Grinspoon)


Everything is 100% LED grown


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 8, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Totally got ya DANKSWAG,
> 
> I have had experiemce with messing with dolmite years back,
> back when i was growing with my own super soil, i ran into a calmag problem early flower, so i grounded up a bunch of dolmite (what i had at the time, plus it made sense(at the time)) and i even topdress with some dolmite. the problem got worse and was not able to solve it, pluck the girl and threw about 30 gallons back in the compost.
> ...


Thanks foreverflyhi


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 8, 2014)

Fucking gorgeous GS! Address lol?


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 8, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> While on the subject. How important is it to have airflow underneath these cloth pots? Would it be wise to place them on milk crates if they need airflow? Should I have my soil cooking in these pots? Right now they're in trash cans. When I squeeze the soil it stays clumped but breaks up easily. My compost was wet due to the climate.


SteelHeader,

Not sure if you have checked out my PHOG links in my signature? My cloth pots sit on top of silca rocks (hygro-mite) that reside in shallow storage containers filled with water. For I use passive hydroponincs to water and provide oxygen to the roots that grow through the cloth pots into the water reservoir.

This provides a self watering system to work with the soil that is already prepared for the season to provide all needed nutrients. It is very important in not to let the soil go dry and that it remains moist and temp does not get to cold or hot to ensure soil web life stays active. There is no issue with root rot for the system I use there is plenty of air trapped in water in the porous silica rock holes not to mention roots in cloth pots get plenty of air cause of the cloth allowing breathing. In addition the entire bottom of the cloth pot becomes a wicking agent that allows water to be drawn up from the reservoir into the pots keeping the soil moist at all times.

Another benefit is the reservoir allows more time to indulge in other activities for the mundane watering is practically eliminated expect for filling reservoir and the best part since it is passive not active meaning no pump running on power to fail. So watering happens as long as there is water in reservoir. 

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 8, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> SteelHeader,
> 
> Not sure if you have checked out my PHOG links in my signature? My cloth pots sit on top of silca rocks (hygro-mite) that reside in shallow storage containers filled with water. For I use passive hydroponincs to water and provide oxygen to the roots that grow through the cloth pots into the water reservoir.
> 
> ...


It's scientifically proven that hand watering slowly WITH LOVE increases yield 20%


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## Mohican (Jan 8, 2014)

Green Santa - that pink frost is amazing! Everything looks delicious


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## Mohican (Jan 8, 2014)

I had to post large pictures of that pink Space Chemo:








Cheers,
Mo


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## GreenSanta (Jan 8, 2014)

Thanks I wish I had a pheno with pink resin!! The LEDs are making her look pink, I have grown many plants with pink hair, chemo tends to do that. but no pink resin yet!! thanks anyway!!


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## Mohican (Jan 8, 2014)

I took microscopic shots of some buds and was amazed at the colors in the trichs:





I have an LED shot that many people thought was the bud color - it is still one of my all time favorite shots:



What does the Space Chemo smell like? My Ace of Spades smells just like old fashioned shoe polish in the can.


Here she is aged in the jar since August:




Cheers,
Mo


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## Shwagbag (Jan 8, 2014)

Whoa! Some purps all up in the trichs yo!


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 8, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> man I dont know how much you pay for smart pots but with 1 yard you can probably only make 1 7gallons container right? + the time of making it! hyroot at a good link in the past for cheap smart bag but right now without searching I found some on amazon for 8$ per bag .. I would never go through the trouble of making them unless I could really save big!!


I think I could get about 2 20 gallon pots out of a yard. It measures the length but a bolt of fabric is usually between 45 and 60 inches wide. I'll look up the info you guys have posted. Thanks for looking out gang! I wiped out my computer and started over so I lost alot of links that I had saved on things like this. But at least I don't need to do everything on my phone.


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 8, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I had to post large pictures of that pink Space Chemo:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If your looking hang somewhere while vacationing in upper NW of good ole USofAfghanny umm America, your welcome to take load off your feet a load of my titanium nail but you need to drop your own load along the way before stopping by, number 1 only when visting!  LMAO!

It's all good seriously I am about to taste and see what I have in these clones I flowered that are a cross G13 andAK47. Not sure what the name of it is but it smells fine piney like it has some forest floor a earthy pine. By the leaves it appears Indica yet it seems to grows tall lankly and needed more Nitrogen then what my Blue Cheese required. Anywise it is like welcoming a new born to the family having a new strain in the medicine chest. 

Anywise I am hoping to have you taste something you normally wouldn't be around hopefully, this strain thing to me is akin to beer brewing among friends sharing there batches with each other. I am sure whatever you have on hand will blow away anything I could bring to the table so my bet when you come visit is the change up!

But YO MO that shit here looks yummy, I'd be grateful of anything but those crystals and light lavender color to those buds, nice very sweet very sweet.

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 9, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> If your looking hang somewhere while vacationing in upper NW of good ole USofAfghanny umm America, your welcome to take load off your feet a load of my titanium nail but you need to drop your own load along the way before stopping by, number 1 only when visting!  LMAO!
> 
> It's all good seriously I am about to taste and see what I have in these clones I flowered that are a cross G13 andAK47. Not sure what the name of it is but it smells fine piney like it has some forest floor a earthy pine. By the leaves it appears Indica yet it seems to grows tall lankly and needed more Nitrogen then what my Blue Cheese required. Anywise it is like welcoming a new born to the family having a new strain in the medicine chest.
> 
> ...


Here is a pic of G13/AK47, these are 2 clones 1 foot tall in 1 gal cloth, decided to flower them out after sexing them to get a pre taste of what the next grown out clones might taste like. Good news here is each one a clone from its own mother.



DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 10, 2014)

OP posted this...can anybody elaborate on benefits?! I've been told enzymes are best for soil not foliars. Any links? Thanks dirt boys.


*-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list. 

*​


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 10, 2014)

Thanks RedCarpetMatches for da rep, can't wait to see how they do after a full cycle. Say their mama's are heavy eaters and they keep me busy with their soil I should transplant them to 2g for both mommies are 42 inch babes that are dying to bust. However due to space constraints I am forced to keep them low profile for now. So the current 1g due the job in that function but I do have to feed the soil. One benefit I get discarded lower leafs and some thinning in mid section great for ROLS.

But damm Gingerlinoleummisfit nice spin on my name... LMAO... didn't see that coming...

DangSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 10, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Thanks RedCarpetMatches for da rep, can't wait to see how they do after a full cycle. Say their mama's are heavy eaters and they keep me busy with their soil I should transplant them to 2g for both mommies are 42 inch babes that are dying to bust. However due to space constraints I am forced to keep them low profile for now. So the current 1g due the job in that function but I do have to feed the soil. One benefit I get discarded lower leafs and some thinning in mid section great for ROLS.
> 
> But damm Gingerlinoleummisfit nice spin on my name... LMAO... didn't see that coming...
> 
> DangSwag


HA!!! Wife just asked me what I'm laughing at while on the restaurant's wifi. Too many margaritas and Latinas


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 10, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> HA!!! Wife just asked me what I'm laughing at while on the restaurant's wifi. Too many margaritas and Latinas


Sounds like your only problem you'll have is the hangover tomorrow. Ha, have a Cadillac or Ultimate on me. 

I like top shelf Tequila One and one-half oz (Patron Silver) with 1 oz Grand Mariner Orange Liquor 1/4 oz FRESH SQUEEZED
lime juice. 

Anywise that is what I am pouring myself right now as I attend to my babies...


DankSwag


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## hyroot (Jan 10, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> OP posted this...can anybody elaborate on benefits?! I've been told enzymes are best for soil not foliars. Any links? Thanks dirt boys.
> 
> 
> *-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list.
> ...


not scrapings but young coconut water is full of enzymes and minerals. Just like seed sprout teas. Its an alternative to seed sprout teas. Enzymes break down old dead roots, promotes new and old root growth. Provides carbs / sugars for plants.


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 10, 2014)

It's been over a week since my garden saw some young coconut water. Guess I should hit up the Asian market in the am.


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 10, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> It's been over a week since my garden saw some young coconut water. Guess I should hit up the Asian market in the am.


picking up cream of some young coconut in an Asian market.... boblowblah had you not shared we would of never known this about you.... and a morning person at that!


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 10, 2014)

Say these are more 4 gals that I put into ROLS some 5 weeks ago and of which I encountered my N deficiency issue that I was able to correct.
Soon I will start again with compost teas and hoping to try out a banana one for a nice P boost for flowering which will begin in about 3 to 4 weeks.
They are mainlined trained, just need to super crop taller branches till they all about on same plane.


On Rebound from N deficiency

DankSwag


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 10, 2014)

I got some "premium felt" from the fabric store to try my hand at sewing bags. After handling it for a bit I can tell it won't hold up. The stuff used in store bought brands is something different. I've looked but can't find the proprietors fabric. I could get 4 15 gallon bags out of 2 yards but I'll just buy em. At $7.99 a yard it would have been nice. Oh well it gives me more time to clean the garage.


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 10, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I got some "premium felt" from the fabric store to try my hand at sewing bags. After handling it for a bit I can tell it won't hold up. The stuff used in store bought brands is something different. I've looked but can't find the proprietors fabric. I could get 4 15 gallon bags out of 2 yards but I'll just buy em. At $7.99 a yard it would have been nice. Oh well it gives me more time to clean the garage.


steelheader, 
what about using this premium felt for lining a hand fashioned wire pot. Thinking if a light workable wire gauge could be fashion as an out skelator frame then line your fabric inside, if cut properly this could be a viable way to use them without even sewing seams for you would kind of do a center punch down of cut square cloth into side of wire frame pot. The corner will overlap over top edge of frame. You could cut or bend and tuck back into frame. If cloth strong enough to hold weight without brusting should be fine. You may have to double up on how many cut pieces for each wire frame container. 

Or just use it in your next vermi composting bin for air ventilation.

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 11, 2014)

Please make some camo and Hello Kitty pots for me. My idea first...ask Dank.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> OP posted this...can anybody elaborate on benefits?! I've been told enzymes are best for soil not foliars. Any links? Thanks dirt boys.
> 
> 
> *-Coconut - scraping coconut paste from a young coconut. Enzymes, auxins, elements, etc. 1 coconut can do 20 plants. 1 oz coconut water to 15 oz water foliar spray clones. Benefits are too numerous to list.
> ...


Can anyone answer this?!


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Can anyone answer this?!


Check page before this one  hyroot awnsered it


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## Nizza (Jan 11, 2014)

when you make enzyme tea, does the ceed have to be viable? i have milled chia ceed and shelled hemp ceed for cooking , was hoping they'd work but figured i'd check first

if those won't work, would i be able to use burpee carrot , lettuce, bean, or broccoli ceeds?


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## mrwood (Jan 11, 2014)

For enzyme tea (e.g., SST v2), you want the seed to sprout
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/636057-recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-52.html

Not sure about carrot, bean, etc. I think any sprout will have beneficial enzymes, but I have only heard of using barley or alfalfa. Perhaps these are known for having more enzymes available??


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 11, 2014)

You posted about it first red. I'll get the 'my little pony' and 'rainbow bright' prints for you. Dank thats a brilliant idea. I gotta pick up some welded wire for my vert screen anyway. Whats pissing me off about the welded wire is I can only find it at the feed store and its not cheap. $60. a roll. Any ideas where it might be cheaper?


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 11, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> You posted about it first red. I'll get the 'my little pony' and 'rainbow bright' prints for you. Dank thats a brilliant idea. I gotta pick up some welded wire for my vert screen anyway. Whats pissing me off about the welded wire is I can only find it at the feed store and its not cheap. $60. a roll. Any ideas where it might be cheaper?


I was thinking of using some small animal wire mesh myself, cut with snips and fashion together to form pot shape. 

I think Red will confirm though he elaborated on fashion print selection, it was my suggestion to him that brought out his softer creative right brain thinking in him. Nonetheless I have him on record saying I get a percent of his makings because of my initial input bring forth the idea.

RCM... don't forget about paisley prints in pastels for those younger gals into horticulture. LMAO... Loving it! 

I still think the Camo prints or better yet if we can get Duck Dynasty blessings, we could use their duck print on the cloth pots too.

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Can anyone answer this?!


Those enzymes are found only in the milk and that of young coconuts, from what I am told you have to go some asian store to find your cream of some young coconut...

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Can anyone answer this?!


Those enzymes which are good for soil are found only in the milk and that of young coconuts, from what I am told you have to go some asian store and to your cream of some young coconut...


_




Originally Posted by *boblawblah421* 
It's been over a week since my garden saw some young coconut water. Guess I should hit up the Asian market in the am.

_
​





DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 11, 2014)

Man this threads been cracking me up lately  Sorry, but I was referring to the *foliar* application of enzymes. I could care less about the K, Ma, etc. in the coconut foliar. BTW, have you guys ever tried drinking pure coconut water...GROSS!


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Man this threads been cracking me up lately  Sorry, but I was referring to the *foliar* application of enzymes. I could care less about the K, Ma, etc. in the coconut foliar. BTW, have you guys ever tried drinking pure coconut water...GROSS!


Ya RCM, for soil juice is good for soil biology. 

Say I hear my urine has a high source of N for my plants and possibly other trace minerals, but I surely don't think about drinking it...

So if I am to understand this you have thoughts about drinking the juice of a nut you picked up at the asian store? 

DankSwag


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 11, 2014)

?https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/organics/2959383d1389467211-organic-feeding-101-20140110_230433.jpg?
https://www.rollitup.org/organics/510995-organic-feeding-101-a-16.html#post10051273

DankSwag


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## hyroot (Jan 11, 2014)

Pure coconut water is bom. If you get an old coconut. The water can be pretty gnarly though. The fresher the better. You can get them anywhere. WalMart, sprouts, Albertsons, Ralphs, Whole foods, Trader Joes, Clarks Nutrition, Vons, Pavillions, Gelsons, etc...


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## NickNasty (Jan 11, 2014)

Your soil looks super wet but I don't see anything wrong with fungus breaking it down, same thing would happen if you tossed it in a cold compost pile or worm bin.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 11, 2014)

NickNasty said:


> Your soil looks super wet but I don't see anything wrong with fungus breaking it down, same thing would happen if you tossed it in a cold compost pile or worm bin.


You nailed the moisture issue, though I had drain slits in that solo, I did get the excess out and plant looks fine. Had other clones in solo with good drainage just I had watered the neem well to help break it down.


Okay Thanks NickNasty, I'll just let that fungi do its thing. I normally don't see this even with topping fresh fish compost. Just as long as it brings no harm or else I am doing a transplant.

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 11, 2014)

I bought some BOGO on the Vita or whatever brand 100% coco water, and I don't think it's any better than cheap ass bulk barley. SST FTW. Soooo, why foliar enzymes?


----------



## hyroot (Jan 11, 2014)

Foliar for minerals not enzymes... Enzymes don't have any benefit on leaves.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 12, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Foliar for minerals not enzymes... Enzymes don't have any benefit on leaves.


This is what I thought. Thanks pyroot  So I'll take the coco out of my foliar and just stick to kelp, aloe, occasional alfalfa, and protekt/agsil (thinking about horsetail). Anyone foliar with HT? To cold to grow here and I found a place that sells leaf for 10$/#


----------



## colocowboy (Jan 12, 2014)

A few posts late but, heavy landscaping fabric for home made smart pots! Cheap, easily malleable, and non corrosive wire for these kinds of element exposed projects is aluminum electric fence line. It's usually found near the no climb animal fencing in the lawn and garden section at lowes or home depot.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 12, 2014)

I couldn't find the heavy stuff anywhere. I just bought some. $5.99 for 15 gallon. It would have been a way to kill time but screw it. I've put too much into this to screw it up with diy bags. I recently found out we have acres or sphagnum peat bogs that are at least 20 feet deep. Local farmers have been digging at them for over 50 years.


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 12, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I couldn't find the heavy stuff anywhere. I just bought some. $5.99 for 15 gallon. It would have been a way to kill time but screw it. I've put too much into this to screw it up with diy bags. I recently found out we have acres or sphagnum peat bogs that are at least 20 feet deep. Local farmers have been digging at them for over 50 years.


Do u know more about the sphagnum peat bogs? For example how long they have been there? Any history behind that area? Animals? Insicts?

i ask because even if its local, and even if local farmers are taking some for themselves, one thing i kno about these types of ecology is that they are very fragile, and take thousands of years. 
Not trying to be a downer but i wouldnt dig into those bogs


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 12, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I couldn't find the heavy stuff anywhere. I just bought some. $5.99 for 15 gallon. It would have been a way to kill time but screw it. I've put too much into this to screw it up with diy bags. I recently found out we have acres or sphagnum peat bogs that are at least 20 feet deep. Local farmers have been digging at them for over 50 years.


That's some premo shit...rent a dump truck and fill 50 gallon drums of the water!!! Worlds gonna end way before these tree hungers think. Space queen's coming for us!!!


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 12, 2014)

I don't know any in depth things about them. But I do know the stuff grows faster than some people think. I got a big ass bale from the store so I'm all set. Just thought it was interesting.


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## mrwood (Jan 12, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I don't know any in depth things about them. But I do know the stuff grows faster than some people think. I got a big ass bale from the store so I'm all set. Just thought it was interesting.


....Just saw a TV show about 'mystery bodies in the bog', told a story of finding bodies centuries old, preserved in irish bogs. AND it talked a little about the makeup of bogs, organic value, farming bogs, etc. Pretty interesting!


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 12, 2014)

Does anyone put worms in their soil? Is that more beneficial as aeration using earthworms during recycling?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 12, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Does anyone put worms in their soil? Is that more beneficial as aeration using earthworms during recycling?


YES and YES!


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 12, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> This is what I thought. Thanks pyroot  So I'll take the coco out of my foliar and just stick to kelp, aloe, occasional alfalfa, and protekt/agsil (thinking about horsetail). Anyone foliar with HT? To cold to grow here and I found a place that sells leaf for 10$/#


Sitting here reading... Wondering if anyone was gonna answer your question.

One day I got to thinking about this same matter. If an sst enzyme tea works wonders as a foliar, then a young coconut foliar sounds in order. I mixed up a batch, and gave my moms a foliar with it. I didn't really see anything good or bad come from it. I haven't researched this matter, but I think hyroot is right. It does however say on page one of this thread that young coconut water makes a good foliar for clones, and I have tried this as well. They rooted quite well that time. It may be something in the coconut other than enzymes that is beneficial.

As for the horestail... It's one of the many botanicals, as well as a plethora of other awesome shit found in the only bullshit product I still buy. Earth Compound from Progress Earth. I've mentioned it quite a few times, and I stand by it. I am a little over half way through a $60 bag of this stuff that I bought about five months ago. Totally worth it in my opinion. 

Check it out...

Earth Compound | Vortex Brewer | Compost Tea Brewing System | Hydroponic Gardening


----------



## NickNasty (Jan 12, 2014)

My pots are full of worms. They seem to love it as long as things stay watered. When you have a worm bin and use the castings you inevitably get worms in your pots.


----------



## boblawblah421 (Jan 12, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Does anyone put worms in their soil? Is that more beneficial as aeration using earthworms during recycling?


I've got a straight worm farm going on in my soil. I see worms of all sizes under my canopy on a daily basis, and my results just keep getting better and better. I also have Blumats set up, so my soil never dries out. There is also an air manifold I built at the bottom of all of my 20 gallon smart pots, and my 300 gallon raised bed, that have big ass air pumps pumping oxygen up into my soil from the bottom.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 12, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> I've got a straight worm farm going on in my soil. I see worms of all sizes under my canopy on a daily basis, and my results just keep getting better and better. I also have Blumats set up, so my soil never dries out. There is also an air manifold I built at the bottom of all of my 20 gallon smart pots, and my 300 gallon raised bed, that have big ass air pumps pumping oxygen up into my soil from the bottom.
> View attachment 2960534View attachment 2960536



Can u show us the bottom of your pots with the airpump? Sounds cool


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 12, 2014)

I covered the manifold with landscape fabric, then rocks, then more fabric, then soil. In my 300 gallon raised bed I covered the rocks with a 4x8 coco mat.

Same thing with my cloner...


Mom says thanks...


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 12, 2014)

Very very nice!!!! Mad props, very inspirational


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 12, 2014)

Doing big things bla!!! I personally like bottom third of el cheapo pots with big lava, rice hulls, and outdoor soil. I'm trying to think of a way to do vert stadium raised beds. Any suggestions...I have several wacko ideas.


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 13, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Doing big things bla!!! I personally like bottom third of el cheapo pots with big lava, rice hulls, and outdoor soil. I'm trying to think of a way to do vert stadium raised beds. Any suggestions...I have several wacko ideas.


I've been going over ideas in my head for some dope ass ROLS raised bed for a vertical system here lately. It'll probably be at least a few months before I get started, but soon I'm gonna start a Google SketchUp blueprint. I had just finished designing a flood and drain vertical system intended to be used with 120 one gallon smart pots when I decided to do away with any container smaller than 20 gallons. 

The new one, once attacked, will be a god damn monstrosity. Can't wait.


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## Nizza (Jan 13, 2014)

hey guys i have a local black gold compost that seems pretty heavy
so in an attempt to thin it out, i took some old coco hempy's that have been sitting in my closet (chopped) and rinsed the roots out and seperated/soaked the coco

since the hempy's had been sitting there, the roots had started to break apart, and now theres a ton of small roots in the coco
i was hoping i could just mix it right into the compost, and then plant into it
but i wanted to ask first to see if I could do it a better way (perhaps some tea or something to innoculate the coco?)
thanks ya'll


----------



## boblawblah421 (Jan 13, 2014)

Nizza said:


> hey guys i have a local black gold compost that seems pretty heavy
> so in an attempt to thin it out, i took some old coco hempy's that have been sitting in my closet (chopped) and rinsed the roots out and seperated/soaked the coco
> 
> since the hempy's had been sitting there, the roots had started to break apart, and now theres a ton of small roots in the coco
> ...


You seem like you're on the right track to me. Go with your gut instinct. 

Coco is great once aged in some compost, in my experience. Hit it with a stout bacterial dominant aact before you transplant, as many times as you can. Then hit it with a fungal dominant tea upon transplant, or even incorporated into a regiment of teas before transplant. That's what I do. 

I water my soil many times, with many different compost teas, seed sprout enzyme teas, aloe, neem, coconut, kelp, I'm sure I'm forgetting something, maybe a little biodynamic preparations, whatever awesome and organic and as local as possible, for as long of a period of time as possible before transplant.

Have fun with that.


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## Shwagbag (Jan 13, 2014)

Nizza said:


> hey guys i have a local black gold compost that seems pretty heavy
> so in an attempt to thin it out, i took some old coco hempy's that have been sitting in my closet (chopped) and rinsed the roots out and seperated/soaked the coco
> 
> since the hempy's had been sitting there, the roots had started to break apart, and now theres a ton of small roots in the coco
> ...


Sounds good to me. You are essentially inoculating it by mixing it with the compost but I would probably take it a step further and hit it with a tea or top dress with a diverse selection of organic additives. I like to top dress with some super soil mix, EWC, Dr. Earth 745 or Espoma Tomato Tone. On top of that I like to drop some dried molasses which adds some food for the little ones and reduces the stench of the organic matter.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 13, 2014)

Oh the gamble of coco. I'm just now dialing it in a LOS after about 6 months. What was run through those hempy's...might be 'contaminated' with bottled poison. Worms love coco as bedding BTW. I would rinse the shit out of it first, then rince again, amend with Ca/Mg, and hydrate it with a good compost tea. I use over a third coco in my mix...no peat. I'm about to hydrate peat with aloe for my ROLS project. Would you guys squeeze out the excess water? The VC I'm mixing it with is moist, and I've had bad experiences with over saturated cooks.


----------



## Nizza (Jan 13, 2014)

okay so black gold is leaves, with small sticks, and horse manure
5gallons water (a little less maybe)
i guess this is fungally dominant so , i did two handfulls of the black gold.
i did a two pinches of wood ash (wood stove) for shits and giggles (LMK if this is bad!)
i don't have any blackstrap, or honey.
a handful of the coco with dead roots in it
I added a little rapid start which has alfalfa barley and willow bark extract
and a little pinch of household sugar (hoping it may help b/c of no molasses

i regret adding the sugar, should i re-do it without the sugar and maybe a different substitute? i figured a little pinch wouldn't hurt. But wanted too see if it'd help

if needed, i can tee an 8 outlet hydrofarm pump onto one or two airstones in the 5gal bucket , but for now i just put a dual output pump onto one stone

i'm broke as shit right now, bills are paid though..
hence the coco-recycling
any more suggestions? I finally got "teaming with microbes" and plan on reading it within the next week or so

edit: i also have a product called S.O.S. http://www.superorganicstimulator.com/ or http://www.strata-intl.com/SOS/Super-Organic-Stimulator-p-78.htmlbut didn't add it
here's a thread of someone talking about it on riu https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/447936-super-organic-stimulator-aka-sos.html
thinking this might increase diversity?


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## NickNasty (Jan 13, 2014)

Did you use chems in your coco? It sounds like your compost is not fully broken down, do you know if it is? If your coco is free of chems I would add more as your compost could be very hot if it is not fully broken down. Do like a 50/50 or 60/40 with more coco then compost because you can always top dress with more compost if needed.


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## Nizza (Jan 13, 2014)

ok, so i did a 70/30 of black gold to coco in 4, so if the 4 with 60/40 coco to black gold don't do well, ill toss em.
yeah i used chems, which is why i did a thorough rinsing


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 14, 2014)

You're doing fine so far Pizza...on the right track and ambitious.


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 14, 2014)

Here are the two air pumps going to the manifold under my 300 gallon raised bed...


Here's some mycelium covereing one of my smart pots, with a little fun guy partying down...


Neem tree...


ROLS Life bitches...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 14, 2014)

Bla can you post some pix of your raised beds. I have several schematics lol. I'd rep you if I could just for the shroom.


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## Mohican (Jan 14, 2014)

Love the neem tree! Where did you get the seeds?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 14, 2014)

I was looking into the neem tree and it sounded like it needed too much TLC. Here's where I found it...https://www.horizonherbs.com/product.asp?specific=613 Lots of goodies right dur.


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## Mohican (Jan 14, 2014)

Thanks RCM! Now I can treat my scabies


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## Mohican (Jan 14, 2014)

I started a separate thread for the LA Cup:

https://www.rollitup.org/california-patients/779891-2014-high-times-la-medical.html


Cheers,
Mo


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 14, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Bla can you post some pix of your raised beds. I have several schematics lol. I'd rep you if I could just for the shroom.


There's not much more to see of the raised bed. It's 22" tall, four feet wide, and eight feet long. I did an air manifold at the bottom, and layered it just like I did those 20 gallon smart pots. Yeah that shroom was worthy of the paparazzi.



Mohican said:


> Love the neem tree! Where did you get the seeds?


My mom got me a neem tree seedling from neemtreefarms.com. My neem tree has definitely had it's ups and downs. Whatever you do, make sure that the soil has plenty of lava/shale/pumice/etc, and don't let it get too cold.

Check them out here...

Live Neem Trees and Plants They've got a bunch of cool stuff.

Thanks all... For your kind words. I've definitely worked my ass off to get to this point. Without communities like this one, however, I'm not so sure I would be where I am today. So also... Thank you everyone, for sharing your experiences.


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 14, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Love the neem tree! Where did you get the seeds?


One more thing...

If you decide to go the neem seed route, get them as locally as possible, and be certain that they are fresh. I bought a pack of neem seeds from horizonherbs.com, and a place in India off of EBay, and not a single one of them popped. They just proceeded to ooze neem oil for almost two months. Neem seeds need to be as fresh as possible in order to germinate. Keep an eye on neemtreefarms.com if you are in the market for neem seeds. They only sell freshies. I just looked, and they are out for the moment. At least they don't sell something they can't stand by.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 14, 2014)

My living coco (no peat) mix is BANGING!!! Chopped a 4 week old 12/12fs male today and was amazed by the *all white* solid roots. Man I shoulda took a pic. I'm harvesting some strong diverse VC, and picking out every money making black golden cocoon I spot! C-list here I come lol.


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 14, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> My living coco (no peat) mix is BANGING!!! Chopped a 4 week old 12/12fs male today and was amazed by the *all white* solid roots. Man I shoulda took a pic. I'm harvesting some strong diverse VC, and picking out every money making black golden cocoon I spot! C-list here I come lol.


You ever do a seed crop? That is on my priority list this summer. I'm thinking Pot of Gold or Afghan Kush.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 14, 2014)

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to boblawblah421



*




Nice mycelium. Can that be properly incorporated via teas?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 14, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> You ever do a seed crop? That is on my priority list this summer. I'm thinking Pot of Gold or Afghan Kush.


Remember...I was the one telling you to post more, and I popped your rep cherry  Seed crop meaning breeding? I have a keeper stallion, and chopped the smaller slower one. It's all about bigger is better!


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## unkle mouse (Jan 15, 2014)

one more time yall might be talking above my pay grade ..
but,, I'm gaining on ya,,,WOO HOO.. just figured out how to take these notes and put them in a WORD document ,so they are all in one place.. ,, I currently have 3 compost piles (2 in containers) cooking even as we speak,, my current grow went from 6 to 3 plants,, dam them boys,, so am going to try to semi seed my only female, posted that question in the seed picture thread,,, will get pics of my current plants up in a few,,, thank you guys



Rising Moon said:


> As for the horsetail...
> 
> I am currently using it in 2 different forms, a fermented form watered in, and the traditional brewed method, foliar sprayed.
> 
> ...


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 15, 2014)

unkle mouse said:


> one more time yall might be talking above my pay grade ..
> but,, I'm gaining on ya,,,WOO HOO.. just figured out how to take these notes and put them in a WORD document ,so they are all in one place.. ,, I currently have 3 compost piles (2 in containers) cooking even as we speak,, my current grow went from 6 to 3 plants,, dam them boys,, so am going to try to semi seed my only female, posted that question in the seed picture thread,,, will get pics of my current plants up in a few,,, thank you guys


Nice clean notes mooseknucle  Keep the studs damn it. Gotta have that natural, local, lay of the land mentality when doing this. Thanks for posting and composting.


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## unkle mouse (Jan 15, 2014)

the 3 males I did cut down I recycled directly into my compost container's, but left the roots in the buckets.. pics are up



RedCarpetMatches said:


> Nice clean notes mooseknucle  Keep the studs damn it. Gotta have that natural, local, lay of the land mentality when doing this. Thanks for posting and composting.


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 15, 2014)

All that mycelium is a product of teas, and good compost. I make sure to find mycelium in my compost pile, and out in the woods to throw in my tea bags when I want a fungal, or a balanced fungal/bacterial tea. All the aloe, kelp, and alfalfa teas I make definitely help as well.


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 15, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Remember...I was the one telling you to post more, and I popped your rep cherry  Seed crop meaning breeding? I have a keeper stallion, and chopped the smaller slower one. It's all about bigger is better!


Thanks for popping my rep cherry Red... Was it awkward for you too?

Breeding... shit yeah...

I just meant purposefully pollinating a female of one strain with a male of the same strain, for the sole purpose of turning two seeds into hundreds. That's what I have planned for the summer. Hopefully next year I will want to get into breeding.

One, or uh... rather... 420 things at a time.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 15, 2014)

Tore my cheap ass grow bag picking it up to turn the soil. At least there's no plant in it yet. One of those $5.99 "yield pots" Looks like I'll quit being so damn cheap.


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 15, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Tore my cheap ass grow bag picking it up to turn the soil. At least there's no plant in it yet. One of those $5.99 "yield pots" Looks like I'll quit being so damn cheap.


Yo Steelheader,

I use these, Roots Pots they hold up and I've washed them a few times already and air dry. 
http://www.aurorainnovations.org/rootpots-pricing.html








DankSwag


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## boblawblah421 (Jan 15, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Tore my cheap ass grow bag picking it up to turn the soil. At least there's no plant in it yet. One of those $5.99 "yield pots" Looks like I'll quit being so damn cheap.


I hate HTG, but their "phat sacks" are the closest thing to a smart pot I have seen, and they're quite affordable.

HTG Supply - 20 Gallon Phat Sacks


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 15, 2014)

What's the point of an expensive ass pot. Please do tell! I take my cheapos, drill holes in bottom half, and line drain holes with screening to keep gnats at bay. Fuck those rip offs. If you have drainage/aeration then fuck it. Water slow and often alternating kelp, alfalfa, SSTs, and your golden. If anything get some milk crates and line em in landscaping product for a fraction of the price. Couple hundered for 'soil holders' fuck that nonsense!!! I digress from wino behavior. Please someone convince me and I'll pull the trigger now. Outdoor soil doesn't have fancy pots. Raised beds FTW!!!


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 15, 2014)

I'll need something that I could move if my goofy ass landlord decides he needs to come over again. Maybe these will fit in milk crates. I hate renting. If my kids were older I'd send my wife to the tittie bar to earn some scratch. Yeah I said it.


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 15, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> What's the point of an expensive ass pot. Please do tell! I take my cheapos, drill holes in bottom half, and line drain holes with screening to keep gnats at bay. Fuck those rip offs. If you have drainage/aeration then fuck it. Water slow and often alternating kelp, alfalfa, SSTs, and your golden. If anything get some milk crates and line em in landscaping product for a fraction of the price. Couple hundered for 'soil holders' fuck that nonsense!!! I digress from wino behavior. Please someone convince me and I'll pull the trigger now. Outdoor soil doesn't have fancy pots. Raised beds FTW!!!


Ya da of MacGyver of Dank, RCM..








For me I don't use any large gallon cloth pots by design of my PHOGS system. The largest I have used is 3 gal to grow a 6 and half foot monster. 

Now I use mostly 1 gallon and 2 gallon on occasion for PHOGS allows the lower part of the root growth for the plant to reside in an areated reservior while the cloth pot holds the soil that rest on a wet silca rock surface. Roots grow out of pot and into the reservior helping to miminze the needed soil medium. I grow 3 foot ladies with 8 main lined branch nodes in one gallon cloth pots.

Look at these prices not bad at all
http://www.1000bulbs.com/search/?filter[category]=8740&filter[brand]=Roots+Organics

DankSwag


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 15, 2014)

I seen a show on moles once. They swim through the soil and push the dirt out to the sides to create tunnels. The hills they produce are their way of flushing the toilet. Since they have an extremely fast metabolism they have to eat a earth worm every hour to survive. And tunnel beneath the seed holding layer of earth. Every Wednesday I work in this town covered in beautiful black molehills. I grabbed one today and it was nice. No smell and just seemed rich. Has anyone on here got experience using molehills for anything? I'd like to gather them up at least for my wife's flower garden if it's ill advised to make a tea or something for cannabis, but would look like a weirdo.

Edit. Thanks for the link Dank I put the torn bag in a milk crate which left me with some extra soil to use for the seedlings.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 17, 2014)

hey everyone,

check out this thread I stated on BIM and making your own bio nutrient! plz visit and contribute! 

https://www.rollitup.org/organics/762400-beneficial-indigenous-micro-organisms-bim.html

just did a post on BIM and LACTO with pictures!


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 17, 2014)

colocowboy said:


> A few posts late but, heavy landscaping fabric for home made smart pots! Cheap, easily malleable, and non corrosive wire for these kinds of element exposed projects is aluminum electric fence line. It's usually found near the no climb animal fencing in the lawn and garden section at lowes or home depot.



I think I found the right stuff just by chance. Just throwing it out there. http://www.pondandgardenwholesalers.com/servlet/the-Pond-Underlayment/Categories


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## hyroot (Jan 17, 2014)

best deal on fabric pots. cheaper than plastic nursery pots

http://growershouse.com/gro-pro-round-fabric-pot-10-gal


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 18, 2014)

For those of you suckers that bought fabric pots, do you set them on something to keep bottom aerated?


----------



## GreenSanta (Jan 18, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> For those of you suckers that bought fabric pots, do you set them on something to keep bottom aerated?


I use em to wash my floor  Personally I set a tarp with 4x4 s around to contain the water and set them all on that tarp ... way better than saucer this way you can really place all the containers the way you want to for canopy management.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 18, 2014)

I found some welded wire racks at the second hand store and put them under my pots. But since my seeds are just sprouting I don't know how good it works.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 18, 2014)

Anyone try SIP pots?!


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## Mohican (Jan 18, 2014)

I put my fabric pots on a soil pot:





Cheers,
Mo


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 18, 2014)

hyroot said:


> best deal on fabric pots. cheaper than plastic nursery pots
> 
> http://growershouse.com/gro-pro-round-fabric-pot-10-gal


Nice! How are the shipping costs? I prefer the Oregon Breathers to anything else, I really dig the handles.



RedCarpetMatches said:


> For those of you suckers that bought fabric pots, do you set them on something to keep bottom aerated?


I used to put large chunky perlite in the bottom 2" of the pot. Since I recycle the soil in my garden and yard I decided to stop doing that, didn't care for the perlite everywhere outside lol. A bunch of 2 x 4 lumber pieces chopped and laid in the trays would probably suffice I would think if you want to allow air flow underneath the pot. KISS.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm going to pull the trigger on air pots. I've been on the fence for awhile, due to water leaking out of the side holes. I water like a snail with yucca or aloe anyways...time to roll the dice!!!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 18, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I put my fabric pots on a soil pot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cheater lol.


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 18, 2014)

Fabric pots are great, although I don't think I get any better dank or yields vs using containers like tubtrugs. I had some great runs with Wal-Mart handled tubtrugs which were about 8-10 gallon with holes drilled in the bottom and 2" of perlite as a base. 

The only shitty thing about fabric pots is washing them IMO. They store well in small spaces which is a huge plus.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 18, 2014)

I have never noticed any diff with fabric pots...ever. I just don't see it. I have seen ridiculous comparisons on air pots vs fabric...air pots win big. The best pot is outdoors (just ask that cheater Mo lol), but I do love the idea and science behind air pruning.


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 18, 2014)

I think the concept is generally the same. In theory the root pruning is said to allow growers to use a smaller fabric container than what is conventionally necessary. That could be true with fabric similar to airpots, but I still grow in 8 gallon for some reason. Maybe I should downsize a bit and see how they respond!

I'm currently finishing my first ever plant in 1 gallon (I think) airpots and I must say I'm impressed. I could easily knock down 1.5 lbs organically in soil in a 4 x 4 and a 600 using SOG with a short veg. Too bad medical laws wouldn't let me do that lol. Sorry they're sideways I forgot to rotate. C99 coming down soooon.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 18, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> I think the concept is generally the same. In theory the root pruning is said to allow growers to use a smaller fabric container than what is conventionally necessary. That could be true with fabric similar to airpots, but I still grow in 8 gallon for some reason. Maybe I should downsize a bit and see how they respond!
> 
> I'm currently finishing my first ever plant in 1 gallon (I think) airpots and I must say I'm impressed. I could easily knock down 1.5 lbs organically in soil in a 4 x 4 and a 600 using SOG with a short veg. Too bad medical laws wouldn't let me do that lol. Sorry they're sideways I forgot to rotate. C99 coming down soooon.
> 
> View attachment 2966845View attachment 2966846View attachment 2966847View attachment 2966848


Nice pics and strain selection!!! Heard that's one happy buzz. I don't know what's better porn...those pics or your avatar. How long veg you talking? Did you up pot, if so what sizes. The air pruning is much more effective in the air pots I would assume, with the 'guiding' wall shape. Oh and what kind of mix ya got there?


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 18, 2014)

Hey shwagbag, nice plant, whats the medium in the 1 gallon? That sure is beautiful plant espexially for such a small container!
the only time i see nugs like that in such a little container is usuall coco chemi


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 18, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Nice pics and strain selection!!! Heard that's one happy buzz. I don't know what's better porn...those pics or your avatar. How long veg you talking? Did you up pot, if so what sizes. The air pruning is much more effective in the air pots I would assume, with the 'guiding' wall shape. Oh and what kind of mix ya got there?


Lol, I don't know which is better either man, haha.... I went from solo cup to airpot, probably vegged under T5 for a week maybe 10 days then threw her in to see what she could do. This girl is the top off her mother which was mainlined. I'm pretty stoked to try her, a lil nug I clipped should be ready tomorrow night for a taste test. 

I don't have access to my current recipe but I pulled this from a thread I was active in around mix time. I did cheat a bit and fed with 500ppm Jacks Classic/Bloom mixture with cal mag a few times for this C99. i just didn't know if that little pot of soil would have enough in her!

*Mix day! I think S420 will like this one the most of my proposed mixes over the past cpl weeks lol. Feedback pls!

12.5 cubic feet of base soil
2 bags RO 707 - 6 cubic feet
2 bags FFOF - 3 cubic feet
1 bag Happy Frog - 2.0 cubic feet
I bag RO Potting Soil - 1.5 cubic feet

Castings & composted manure
75-85 # of castings
4-5 cubic feet of composted manure

Additives
Tomato tone - 10 cups
Dr. Earth Organic 8 - 10 cups
N guano - 5 cups
P guano - 5 cups
Powdered Lime - 3 cups
Epsom Salts - 2 cups
Kelp Meal - 7 cups
Powdered Humic Acid - 2 cups
Azomite - 2 cups
Crab Meal - 2 cups
Glacial Rock Dust - 2 cups
Food grade diatomaceous earth - 4 cups

Chunky perlite to get my desired consistency. Can, mix and inoculate. *

I think those Airpost are the TRUTH! I also top dressed with Espoma Tomato Tone, a bit of EWC and some dried mollasses. if you guys haven't tried the dried mollasses I hightly recommend! Very easy to top dress with it and it smells lovely.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 18, 2014)

I'm an ass man shwag and your avatar makes me want to cry.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 19, 2014)

I need some air pot advice as these aren't cheap!!! Should I just get the smallest (Liter) for seedlings, then 1 gal for rest of short or even long veg, and 3 or 5's for bloom? I'm sold on them and don't need any fabric suggestions. Please help for rep or rusty trumbone!!!


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 19, 2014)

Steeler...here ya go. I lol'd when I seen this under "urban" air pots. http://www.instructables.com/id/Milk-Crate-Air-Pot-Square-Foot-Urban-Container-G/


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 19, 2014)

How about a rusty trumpet and a steamer?


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 19, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Steeler...here ya go. I lol'd when I seen this under "urban" air pots. http://www.instructables.com/id/Milk-Crate-Air-Pot-Square-Foot-Urban-Container-G/


Stoneyluv used those. I would probably use them for outdoor if I could find a good source for local milk crates I would be all over it.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 19, 2014)

Swap meets, second hand re-use it stores (not necisairily goodwill) or just behind grocery stores but technically it is stealing. And not worth it to me. If your in USA.


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm going to put my wife on that detail lol. The swap meet and second hand stores, not the latter lol.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 19, 2014)

I don't know if I'm overthinking or what, but are air pots really good for a living soil. Microbes go dormant when dry...but maybe the often watering will compensate.


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 19, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I don't know if I'm overthinking or what, but are air pots really good for a living soil. Microbes go dormant when dry...but maybe the often watering will compensate.


I would think they would benefit microbial activity since there is certainly more air getting to the rhizosphere. That C99 I posted still only needed water every 2-3 days, I was pretty surprised!


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 19, 2014)

I'm thinking the same thing with these cloth pots red. I keep turning it with my hand as the outside is drying up with the heater I got in there.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 19, 2014)

I fucking hate heaters in tents. One trick is to put em outside tent near intake. As long as you have enough roots you're good I reckon. Do you like mustard with your taters?


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 19, 2014)

I've never had mustard with taters, but I like it with pretzels. Germinated my seeds now just waiting for them to break soil. Finally got my temp stable at 75. I had a heater die last night. Got down to 50 put in a new one and it jumped to 90. Fuckin stupid. We'll see if it drops any more tonight.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 20, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I've never had mustard with taters, but I like it with pretzels. Germinated my seeds now just waiting for them to break soil. Finally got my temp stable at 75. I had a heater die last night. Got down to 50 put in a new one and it jumped to 90. Fuckin stupid. We'll see if it drops any more tonight.


You should start a 'shit we go through while gambling with top notch expensive genetics that actually made it home' thread!!!


----------



## hyroot (Jan 20, 2014)

Some French fried potaterz


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Mmmmm taterz


Taters dipped in mayo and mustard...ummm hmmm


----------



## hyroot (Jan 20, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Taters dipped in mayo and mustard...ummm hmmm


ewww. BBQ and ranch and honey mustard fo shizzle


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 20, 2014)

Mayo on your taters? This isn't the Canadian thread. Disclaimer: No I don't hate Canadians. So don't put me on blast. Oh wait this isn't facebook.

36 hours sprouted seeds in soil still havn't broken soil. C'mon you little fuckers.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 20, 2014)

Seriously, try the mayo and mustard on tater tots...you can rep me later lol. MacDonulds fries and sweet n sour anyone? I think Outbakk's honey mustard is crack....omfg I'm hungry now. 

I'm getting mine today or tomorrow steel. I'm finally gonna get to veg with my Area51s!!!


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 20, 2014)

When TF did this turn into the Rollitup condiment thread? lol


----------



## colocowboy (Jan 20, 2014)

Fried potato sandwiches with mustard, mayo, and cheese FTW
lolz
Man I miss stoneyluv! Wish that fool would come back around!


----------



## Mohican (Jan 20, 2014)

In N Out fries dipped in a chocolate shake 

Colorado vs Washington Super Bowl - The High Times/Norml Super Bowl!


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 20, 2014)

I'm an idiot. Allmost dehydrated my seedling soil with that heater snafu. I know the soil underneath them held moisture but I didn't bury them at all really.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 20, 2014)

Damm, okay trying to post this again.

Here are my ROLS, will not true ROLS as I used them immediately after harvest by transplanting established clones from my solo cups.

They had gone through some nitrogen deficiency issues after a few weeks in their new pots that I introduced my first protozoa and nematode tea too. Anywise I addressed with organic amendments of alfalfa and crab meal, in additional to top dressing with Oly Fish Compost and adding Oyster Shell Flour to possible needed calcium shortage that could affect available nitrogen. 


Well it has been a few weeks since facing that issue and these four gals have been mainlined trained since established with 3 new branch nodes from clones and I recently gave them some new tea which was very fishy smelling. 

For I brewed Oly Fish Compost with Eco Fish Hydrolisate and BSM. Diluted with water 1:1 and watered. 








And Got This Brew..... which smelled like fish stew! But not foul rotten egg or alcohol or vinegar smell
The white ring is residue from making bokashi bran. So that is Bacillus bacteria which is good stuff.
View attachment 2968949

And these are what my babies look like... days after sipping from the brew
These are ready to go on to flowering I have little white roots sticking out 
off their bottoms.


DankSwag


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## hyroot (Jan 20, 2014)

Potato tacos with tapatio


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 20, 2014)

Anyone ever mess around with rock dust? I know there is azomite and glacial, but I am lucky to live around volcanoes that use to sit over limestone, so I have everything at my doorstep to make rock dust myself.....
came across this..... http://remineralize.org/a-rock-dust-primer

a friend from high school eats: Peanut Butter and Butter Sandwiches [wtf is wrong with people loloz] 
Animal style from In-N-OUt or the "dog treats" or a 10x10 are the bee knees 

and Utah has fucking In-No-Outs. But Not us up north of Shasta...


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 20, 2014)

Also found this Mineral Analysis of Diastatic malt: http://www.diamalt.co.uk/nutritional.htm Hoping this is similar to other generic malts. 

Is anybody using the Seed Tea V3 still? I read a ways back about maybe going back to V2? 

Now that I actually read and made a barley tea, I am hoping for good results with the malt. Clones seemed to perk the best, they friggin loved the seed soak.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 21, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> Anyone ever mess around with rock dust? I know there is azomite and glacial, but I am lucky to live around volcanoes that use to sit over limestone, so I have everything at my doorstep to make rock dust myself.....
> came across this..... http://remineralize.org/a-rock-dust-primer
> 
> a friend from high school eats: Peanut Butter and Butter Sandwiches [wtf is wrong with people loloz]
> ...


First link will last a lifetime and is tested. Call em up and they might tell you what kind of findings they've come across in your state. Can't beat that price and quantity shipped, with no contaminants. If good go local rock dust. 



Abiqua said:


> Also found this Mineral Analysis of Diastatic malt: http://www.diamalt.co.uk/nutritional.htm Hoping this is similar to other generic malts.
> 
> Is anybody using the Seed Tea V3 still? I read a ways back about maybe going back to V2?
> 
> Now that I actually read and made a barley tea, I am hoping for good results with the malt. Clones seemed to perk the best, they friggin loved the seed soak.


Put the sprout in the blender and grind it all up lol. I don't sift either. I like bubbling it. Aerated water is always good. SST is for cheaters like Hyroot who lives in his kitchen.


----------



## Mohican (Jan 21, 2014)

I tried to make rock dust from red lava rocks. It turned to cement in the flower pot after watering. Not the well draining soil I was expecting! 

Cheers,
Mo


----------



## hyroot (Jan 21, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> First link will last a lifetime and is tested. Call em up and they might tell you what kind of findings they've come across in your state. Can't beat that price and quantity shipped, with no contaminants. If good go local rock dust.
> 
> 
> 
> Put the sprout in the blender and grind it all up lol. I don't sift either. I like bubbling it. Aerated water is always good. SST is for cheaters like Hyroot who lives in his kitchen.


I have a really nice kitchen too... My fridge is fully stocked. That's right.


fyi Red's mom has got it goin on.




@Abiqua I never heard of v3 sst. I've been doin v2.0 sst. Where you sprout, rinse, rest, repeat, puree sprouts then add to bucket and bubble.


v.1 was soaking sprouts, dumping water and then re-soak the discard sprouts and use water and dilute.

fresh coconut water or diatistic malted barley flour are alternatives


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 21, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I tried to make rock dust from red lava rocks. It turned to cement in the flower pot after watering. Not the well draining soil I was expecting!
> 
> Cheers,
> Mo


Lava rock dust is like any other rock dust. I have it in 12 cu ft without that prob. Gotta be something else like clay. Where'd you get lava rock?


----------



## Mohican (Jan 21, 2014)

Home depot:








Cheers,
Mo


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 21, 2014)

Thanks for the heads up Mo. I've never used that brand. Maybe just stretch the dust out in your next mix...I dunno. No clays in your mix?


----------



## Mashpotato Johnson (Jan 21, 2014)

Im sure this comes up in your rols bin, but I have a case of white fuzzy and green mold goring on the top layer of my rols soil in the bin. The dirt is warm from decamp, and damp, not wet. Whatya' think I should do? Chuck it out? Keep it?

What I actually did was throw it all in the compost. But if it happens again, what would your suggestion be? I tried a search in the thread about it but didn't find anything of value. I don't want to inoculate my plants w/ mood by using contaminated soils.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 21, 2014)

White fuzz/Santa's beard is normal and shows good microbe diversity!!! Never had any XP on greenish or blue, eww. Sounds like you kept it nice n moist. Your compost will put the colored stuff in check and be awesome soon enough! Good post, and I'm curious to hear about the colored stuff too.


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 21, 2014)

So I inoculated the top of the soil on my clones with mycorrhizae and then hit them with 1 TBSP each of dried mollasses... About 48 hours later and I have shit growing on top of the oil a good 1/2"!


----------



## Mashpotato Johnson (Jan 21, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> So I inoculated the top of the soil on my clones with mycorrhizae and then hit them with 1 TBSP each of dried mollasses... About 48 hours later and I have shit growing on top of the oil a good 1/2"!


I know that BS Molasses will super feed the mycorrihizae, but too much can be a bad thing perhaps. I keep mine diluted 1 tbsp/g or for us incredibly awesome metric folk 6.5mL/L (1.33 tsp/L)

May have been the lighting, the "green" mold may not have existed at all. So if it where to happen again with the white mold should I just work it into the soil then and use it as is when the time comes for potting? I also dumped a shit tonne of undiluted BS molasses in there which is prob why it was to hot and had the mold... prob too much..


----------



## mrwood (Jan 21, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> Is anybody using the Seed Tea V3 still? I read a ways back about maybe going back to V2?


I read the same thing. There is a v3 based on malt. Sounds like it works, but some were going back to the seeds (v2) because they saw a better response.
I have made some v2 teas & had good results.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 21, 2014)

mrwood said:


> I read the same thing. There is a v3 based on malt. Sounds like it works, but some were going back to the seeds (v2) because they saw a better response.
> I have made some v2 teas & had good results.


V2 is designed for the highest amount of enzymes, tested by brewers. Works for my males lol.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 21, 2014)

mo next time go to the farm supply. They have pumice now. Just picked up a bag of castings from there. The big white bag. Thats a big bag


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 21, 2014)

mrwood said:


> I read the same thing. There is a v3 based on malt. Sounds like it works, but some were going back to the seeds (v2) because they saw a better response.
> I have made some v2 teas & had good results.


Sweet you remember, Version 3 was just the malt, sorry for the confusion. 

The guy I bought it off of was stoked about me using it as an enzyme source and he even asked if anybody had suggested heating between 149-151F. 

I told him about the V2 and he called it "stepping" the malt. I bought 2lbs for like $7 total so I am going to give it a go. Just add a tbsp/ gallon and a little of my homemade fulvic/ coconut water solution. 

Figured out my soil was a joke, so I went out and bought 


Peat Moss 
Ecoscraps 
Perlite


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 21, 2014)

I live within an hour of Concentrates, its just a struggle to get down there on a reliable basis......I really am wanting to pick up some of that bagged Oly Fish. Maybe by Dead Prez Day next month. They are literally the only place within 1.5 hour drive for [reliable] vermicompost too....shit just got real


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 21, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> I live within an hour of Concentrates, its just a struggle to get down there on a reliable basis......I really am wanting to pick up some of that bagged Oly Fish. Maybe by Dead Prez Day next month. They are literally the only place within 1.5 hour drive for [reliable] vermicompost too....shit just got real


Someone needs to start a worm bin ASAP! 

BTW Lava Rock>pumice  Much cheaper too. I want to try making char with rice hulls.


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 21, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Someone needs to start a worm bin ASAP!
> 
> BTW Lava Rock>pumice  Much cheaper too. I want to try making char with rice hulls.


I know, been thinking about it and read thru the vermi thread. But with weather and space I have been hesitant. I mean it still is Winter in some places  Haven't read about a lot of success in below 50F weather....I welcome any input, I def want worms and found a place super close that has em too.....[but just the worms and not the poo ]


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 21, 2014)

My worms should be here tomorrow. Gonna live in the kitchen. Until my wife decides she doesn't like that idea anyway. I might tell her to shove it though. Sometimes I get to do that.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 21, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> My worms should be here tomorrow. Gonna live in the kitchen. Until my wife decides she doesn't like that idea anyway. I might tell her to shove it though. Sometimes I get to do that.


save those shove its for special occassion. . They are rare


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 21, 2014)

Working on diff solo cup designs for all this bean poppin. Thinking about little DIY air pruners for shits n giggles. Just poke a bunch of holes with solder iron. Anyone ever try this stupid ass idea?


----------



## hyroot (Jan 21, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Working on diff solo cup designs for all this bean poppin. Thinking about little DIY air pruners for shits n giggles. Just poke a bunch of holes with solder iron. Anyone ever try this stupid ass idea?


I did but I heated up a philips screw driver. solo cups tend to crack all the way up when poking holes on the side. Maybe a soldering iron would work better... no point really I usually transplant seeds before the roots fill in. Once the first set of leaves. If you do 12/12 fs. thats what you do with seeds


oh and page 200 woopty woop


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 21, 2014)

Mashpotato Johnson said:


> I know that BS Molasses will super feed the mycorrihizae, but too much can be a bad thing perhaps. I keep mine diluted 1 tbsp/g or for us incredibly awesome metric folk 6.5mL/L (1.33 tsp/L)
> 
> May have been the lighting, the "green" mold may not have existed at all. So if it where to happen again with the white mold should I just work it into the soil then and use it as is when the time comes for potting? I also dumped a shit tonne of undiluted BS molasses in there which is prob why it was to hot and had the mold... prob too much..


By chance are you talking clones? If you're talking clones then the green "mold" you're seeing could be algae. I would scrape it off and throw it to compost. I get green algae on my clones sometimes if I over water them.

BTW, anything other than metric is ridiculous. Anyone who knows what's what in the west prefers the metric system, it drives me crazy having to deal with both though. Its hard enough mastering one of them much less conversions lol. Metrics is just so simple, why, just why not just..... I think I will struggle with it for the rest of my life! Thank goodness for Google and smart phones 

This is the molasses product I was referring to. I'm REALLy digging it. I love compost teas, but I hate making them and cleaning the buckets/stones. I just don't have the time for teas unforunately and I really do feel like if an organic gardener wants the most from their garden then they should never go without at least periodic tea application. I thought this would be a convenient way to get some molasses in there without the mess of BS molasses shitznittz.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 21, 2014)

My uncle calls metric "the communist measuring system". lol He got all bent out of shape ranting about Carter or Ford.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 21, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Home depot:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MO,

Just a thought, in crushing porous rock, does that not destroy the air space thus and leave you with rock dust, right? 

Just one letter, Y .... were you doing dabs prior?

Just messing with you, seeing physics still at work is amazing.... 

DankSwag


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

I wanted to get some of that iron rich goodness to break down. I mixed it with other things. It seriously smelled like concrete when I watered it. The water would not drain! Read how great lava sand is for plants and thought I would make my own. Learned a new trick.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I wanted to get some of that iron rich goodness to break down. I mixed it with other things. It seriously smelled like concrete when I watered it. The water would not drain! Read how great lava sand is for plants and thought I would make my own. Learned a new trick.


Your drainage prob is still bothering me. I have amazing drainage with lava, and I also used all the dust. per cu ft I prob had around a cup of the dust after crushing. You gonna cut the soil? The rock isn't the prob, it has to be something else....hmmm


----------



## boblawblah421 (Jan 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Put the sprout in the blender and grind it all up lol. I don't sift either. I like bubbling it. Aerated water is always good. SST is for cheaters like Hyroot who lives in his kitchen.


I make seed sprout enzyme teas from all sorts of seeds. Barley, alfalfa, fenugreek, quinoa, flax, chia, mung bean, lentils, buckwheat... I also finish the sprouting process with all of these, and eat the fuck out them. My belly, and my garden benefit from every last one of them.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Someone needs to start a worm bin ASAP!
> 
> *BTW Lava Rock>pumice  Much cheaper too.* I want to try making char with rice hulls.


Possibly, but not having to fuck around for hours hammering the shit out of lava rock is> having to fuck around for hours hammering the shit out of lava rock.

Pumice FTW!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 22, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> I make seed sprout enzyme teas from all sorts of seeds. Barley, alfalfa, fenugreek, quinoa, flax, chia, mung bean, lentils, buckwheat... I also finish the sprouting process with all of these, and eat the fuck out them. My belly, and my garden benefit from every last one of them.


I have a bitch of a time getting the chia seeds to sprout


----------



## Mashpotato Johnson (Jan 22, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> By chance are you talking clones? If you're talking clones then the green "mold" you're seeing could be algae. I would scrape it off and throw it to compost. I get green algae on my clones sometimes if I over water them.
> 
> BTW, anything other than metric is ridiculous. Anyone who knows what's what in the west prefers the metric system, it drives me crazy having to deal with both though. Its hard enough mastering one of them much less conversions lol. Metrics is just so simple, why, just why not just..... I think I will struggle with it for the rest of my life! Thank goodness for Google and smart phones
> 
> This is the molasses product I was referring to. I'm REALLy digging it. I love compost teas, but I hate making them and cleaning the buckets/stones. I just don't have the time for teas unforunately and I really do feel like if an organic gardener wants the most from their garden then they should never go without at least periodic tea application. I thought this would be a convenient way to get some molasses in there without the mess of BS molasses shitznittz.


I don't think it was mold. I think I was trippin out.

Yes Metric is the best. KISS.

Black strap molasses teas are so easy to make. I have no probs, and I add it to most of my teas depending on what feed it is. BSM helps BIND nutrients in a way that helps the plants absorb better, so a little goes along way. That 5 lb bag of yours is pretty cheap though, I'd prob just dump a bunch into the ROLS bin and mix her up.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Possibly, but not having to fuck around for hours hammering the shit out of lava rock is> having to fuck around for hours hammering the shit out of lava rock.
> 
> Pumice FTW!


Boo you too lol. Pumice Grumpis. I enjoy the exercise and stress venting of pounding lava rock. If I'm feeling lazy I run the shit over  Much more porous to. +2 Red 0 stow and hy


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Boo you too lol. Pumice Grumpis. I enjoy the exercise and stress venting of pounding lava rock. If I'm feeling lazy I run the shit over  Much more porous to. +2 Red 0 stow and hy


Fuzzy math.

I didn't get banned from LOS, and my team covered the spread on your team.

st0w 2, red 2'ish


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 22, 2014)

Mashpotato Johnson said:


> I don't think it was mold. I think I was trippin out.
> 
> Yes Metric is the best. KISS.
> 
> Black strap molasses teas are so easy to make. I have no probs, and I add it to most of my teas depending on what feed it is. BSM helps BIND nutrients in a way that helps the plants absorb better, so a little goes along way. That 5 lb bag of yours is pretty cheap though, I'd prob just dump a bunch into the ROLS bin and mix her up.


I love using teas, but cleaning sucks. I don't just use molasses. No, my personality just wouldn't settle for that, LOL. I have to inoculate with a variety of different ingredients which makes a nasty mess and requires more cleaning and maintenance. 

Shit on my airstones/hoses, shitty nylons, shitty scum filled buckets teeming with micro organisms, shitty watering cups, shitty slops on the floor and tent, shitty everything. They (plants) love teas but I don't lol.


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

The lava rock breaks up very easily and it is great therapy! I think using the fine powder was my mistake. Maybe I will sift it to remove the fine dust and just use the sand sized and bigger pieces. The plant that was in the lava concrete for a month did end up having a nice pineapple finish in the jar.

I also added Malawi ash to the soil:







I do use pumice:




Here is the lava girl when she was moved to her new 20 gallon air pot:




Here she is finished early from Mainlining and light deprivation:




Here she is at harvest:
















Cheers,
Mo


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 22, 2014)

Beautiful as usual Mo!

You and I must have purchased different grades of lava rock. I backed over that shit in my SUV, hammered the hell out of ..... pretty much tried everything short of dropping it from a 50 story balcony. The juice just wasn't worth the squeeze for me.


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

I had my big sledge hammer. It was like mashing styrofoam  Every once in a while there would be a really hard one that wouldn't crush!


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

I want to try mainlining! I'm not a big fan of the thread here tho...whoops. How early do you top? I don't want any stress for the first four weeks. Trying to get female ratio up as of late.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 22, 2014)

Mainlining is such a beautiful art, however it is not for the grower who wants things done faster, and in your case red, higher female ratio.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

I'm not one to veg long or at all lol. Mainlining sure does look pretty and seems to work wonders. Supercropping aka 'sculpting' is the real art


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 22, 2014)

I used to hate vegging, but today i look forward watching a small plant turn into a monster before i flower. I have a yoda that i have been vegging for 3+ months and wow! Shoot for 6 months veg, maybe


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

Monster plants!





Cheers,
Mo


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Your drainage prob is still bothering me. I have amazing drainage with lava, and I also used all the dust. per cu ft I prob had around a cup of the dust after crushing. You gonna cut the soil? The rock isn't the prob, it has to be something else....hmmm


I agree unless it is such added either layered, ratio or reaction to another element in the soil makeup. It is not to late to add rice hulls or bigger pieces with some of the porous holes remaining?

Dankswag


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 22, 2014)

Monster Jealous!


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 22, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I had my big sledge hammer. It was like mashing styrofoam  Every once in a while there would be a really hard one that wouldn't crush!


Those would be ones that I would think did not heat up as well thus more crystalline than ash? Could be wrong my first thought on it.

Mo those jars of buds and all on the counter looks like the pantry to a kitchen where you'd see pickles kept and such. A warm homey feeling to it. 

DankSwag


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

Thanks - my jam collection  I am running out of room. I will take some to the cup and that will thin out the stack 




There are four more of these in there now:




And this is in turkey bags:






That is why I am bringing my overage to the Medical Cup to give to patients!


Cheers,
Mo


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

Hey DS - I think some were pure iron! And I did make the mistake of adding it as a layer. When I transplanted to the 20# smartie the soil still had a good bit of lava mixed in


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

I remember looking at that giant Malawi bush and thinking it was way too airy. Then it ended up looking like this:











Cheers,
Mo


----------



## boblawblah421 (Jan 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I have a bitch of a time getting the chia seeds to sprout


The chia and the flax are both a bitch, but totally worth it. I tie a pillow case over the top of a bucket and lay the seeds out on top of it, and mist as often as possible. I set this somewhere warm and dark (my kombucha station). Once the seeds have sprouted I discard the water in the bucket and collect the run-off from then on out for my sst's.


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

Has anybody tried the aspirin tea?


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 22, 2014)

I allways thought FTW meant fuck the world. lol Red got banned from los?! haha. ftw red!


----------



## hyroot (Jan 22, 2014)

holy hot sauce Mo those are some super big ass plants. Any plans to build a tree house in there?


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

#FMo2014 damn show off. I'll hobbit tree house those b#[email protected], and start an accidental fire caused from a third degree burnt finger tip!!!


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I allways thought FTW meant fuck the world. lol Red got banned from los?! haha. ftw red!


Another ADD double post...my bad y'all. I thought the same for a long time. I also thought lol meant lots of laughs. What ever happened to freedom of keyboard speech?! Lame site anyway, buncha amish...no offense hy.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 22, 2014)

redcarpetmatches said:


> another add double post...my bad y'all. I thought the same for a long time. I also thought lol meant lots of laughs. What ever happened to freedom of keyboard speech?! Lame site anyway, buncha amish...no offense hy.


im not amish but psuagro is. Laugh out loud ....forget the walrus


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

hyroot said:


> im not amish but psuagro is. Laugh out loud ....forget the walrus


HAAA!!! Isn't Psu Asian?! Maybe even a lawyer.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 22, 2014)

hyroot said:


> holy hot sauce Mo those are some super big ass plants. Any plans to build a tree house in there?


That would be cool smoking herb from an herb tree house!

DankSwag


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> That would be cool smoking herb from an herb tree house!
> 
> DankSwag


He stole that tree house joke from me btw. I posted it like a month ago. He steals all my jokes and ideas.


----------



## NickNasty (Jan 22, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Has anybody tried the aspirin tea?


I want to try it out.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

Yeah....Nick's here!!! How's it going bud?

I have a super cereal question. How long do you guys keep your SSTs? I bubble mine for at least a day, and whatever I don't use I just keep stirring daily. How long's it good for?


----------



## hyroot (Jan 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> He stole that tree house joke from me btw. I posted it like a month ago. He steals all my jokes and ideas.




NOOOOOOOO you the joke thief. me and chron made joke like that several times over the last couple years on here kimo sabe. I was repping recycled soil long before this thread existed.


https://www.rollitup.org/organics/543362-re-using-soil.html


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

hyroot said:


> NOOOOOOOO you the joke thief. me and chron made joke like that several times over the last couple years on here kimo sabe. I was repping recycled soil long before this thread existed.
> 
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/organics/543362-re-using-soil.html


I was using Earth Juice, Fox Farms soil n nutes, and rocking stupid T5s back then  Can you answer my post if you know...snerk.


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 22, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I remember looking at that giant Malawi bush and thinking it was way too airy. Then it ended up looking like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you still trimming that monster? lol


----------



## Mohican (Jan 22, 2014)

No, I gave up and donated a bunch of untrimmed buds to an oil maker. He made some killer extracts that smelled like chocolate


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I was using Earth Juice, Fox Farms soil n nutes, and rocking stupid T5s back then  Can you answer my post if you know...snerk.


Im rockin a handful of drop lights. Thinking about getting a $15 t8 shop light at walmart. Ftw


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 22, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Im rockin a handful of drop lights. Thinking about getting a $15 t8 shop light at walmart. Ftw


You can overdrive those bulbs with a little bit of rewiring. You have to buy two fixtures for the one extra ballast. I vegged with them fine until my T5HOs.


----------



## boblawblah421 (Jan 23, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I have a super cereal question. How long do you guys keep your SSTs? I bubble mine for at least a day, and whatever I don't use I just keep stirring daily. How long's it good for?


I bubble my sst's overnight then drain and rinse the seeds. I then rinse them off frequently until they are all sprouted, usually about 24 hours. I then fill the jar back up with water and bubble till there is a good head on the brew, usually two or three days. This water gets strained into a bucket, and I rinse the sprouts out into that same bucket till the water comes out clear. Then I continue sprouting the seeds to feed myself and my family. That only makes sense to me.


----------



## Mohican (Jan 23, 2014)

I am running a couple of the Home Depot Cree LED light bulbs in my veg cab with my Kessil H350M.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 23, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> I bubble my sst's overnight then drain and rinse the seeds. I then rinse them off frequently until they are all sprouted, usually about 24 hours. I then fill the jar back up with water and bubble till there is a good head on the brew, usually two or three days. This water gets strained into a bucket, and I rinse the sprouts out into that same bucket till the water comes out clear. Then I continue sprouting the seeds to feed myself and my family. That only makes sense to me.


I knew you were Amish! We should start a Modern Amish group and see who can get the downest and dirtiest. My biochar on the Weeber grill smoking a T-bone was up there for me. Sticks were from the woods. 
Nice input and 'version', but doesn't answer my question at all  I follow 'version 2' from some stupid youbloob video from some hyrootrot guy. I keep the leftover gallon or two, and stir daily after all the bubbling. Just want to know how long it lasts?



Mohican said:


> I am running a couple of the Home Depot Cree LED light bulbs in my veg cab with my Kessil H350M.


Uh oh...you go Mo!!! What bulbs? I have one of mine 18" above clones in a reptile reflector. 

Steel, that'd be affordable and great for vegging.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 23, 2014)

[video=youtube_share;NampsFKlR58]http://youtu.be/NampsFKlR58[/video]


----------



## unkle mouse (Jan 23, 2014)

ok I now have 2 container composters,and 1--15 footer on the ground, and yesterday I started my own little worm farm with about 40 red wigglers in a 1 gallon plastic black cleaned very well paint can. and if I don't tell you I burnt my cinnamon bagels, can I have a big gold star sticker on my ROLS folder?
I'm being good, I promise..
lol


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 23, 2014)

Nice post Hyroot! Listened to it on my commute, good stuff. Anyone check his book out?


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> [video=youtube_share;NampsFKlR58]http://youtu.be/NampsFKlR58[/video]


I do like his personality. Cal/Mag, FF, no thanks dude. I like how he mentions layering and red clay...good stuff.


----------



## NickNasty (Jan 23, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Im rockin a handful of drop lights. Thinking about getting a $15 t8 shop light at walmart. Ftw


I run t8's for clones and the first few weeks in 1 gal pots they work great.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 23, 2014)

Thanks guys I read that the increased performance of t5's over t8's doesn't match the cost percentage increase. Not like they really cost that much to run anyway.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 23, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Thanks guys I read that the increased performance of t5's over t8's doesn't match the cost percentage increase. Not like they really cost that much to run anyway.


I used to run t5's for one you need the right bulbs. for veg imo htg agromax 5400k bulbs are the best. Anything higher than that on the kelvin scale is useless and produces very slow growth.. Since dropping the t5's imo 432 watts is alot for a 2x4. I run 420w over a 5x5 in veg.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 23, 2014)

Hy guy...What do you think is an ideal L x W for 2 51s and maybe the A19s for supplemental? I'm cutting my plywood tomorrow, and was thinking 2 1/2' x 4' minimum.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 23, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Hy guy...What do you think is an ideal L x W for 2 51s and maybe the A19s for supplemental? I'm cutting my plywood tomorrow, and was thinking 2 1/2' x 4' minimum.


2 of the a51's ssgs will cover a 4 x 3 if run them side by side long ways.. Dawg did almost a 4x4 with them. Will the a19's be for side lighting or above?


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> 2 of the a51's ssgs will cover a 4 x 3 if run them side by side long ways.. Dawg did almost a 4x4 with them. Will the a19's be for side lighting or above?


Good question. I'm sold on the vert on Y sockets...prob 4 A19s total. I was also thinking 3x4 would be the max, but the A19s might push it to 3x5. I can do 4x5 max in my space.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 23, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Good question. I'm sold on the vert on Y sockets...prob 4 A19s total. I was also thinking 3x4 would be the max, but the A19s might push it to 3x5. I can do 4x5 max in my space.


If you do side lighting. the bulbs need to be within 3 inches of the plant. Beyond that there is a drastic drop off in the par rating. Within 3 inches from the sides they put out around 800 µmole/s. Then beyond that it's 35 µmole/s. Otherwise grab some white reptile reflectors and put them up above. At 12 inches they put out around 350 µmole/s with a clamp light and 6 inches about 450 µmole/s. So possibly more with a white reflector.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> If you do side lighting. the bulbs need to be within 3 inches of the plant. Beyond that there is a drastic drop off in the par rating. Within 3 inches from the sides they put out around 800 µmole/s. Then beyond that it's 35 µmole/s. Otherwise grab some white reptile reflectors and put them up above. At 12 inches they put out around 350 µmole/s with a clamp light and 6 inches about 450 µmole/s. So possibly more with a white reflector.


I was considering the reptile reflectors angled on side walls. I don't want them getting in the way of the 51 footprint tho. The Y sockets will be propped in place and adjustable...I'm bad ass like that. Do you now ratings without the A19 glass?


----------



## hyroot (Jan 23, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I was considering the reptile reflectors angled on side walls. I don't want them getting in the way of the 51 footprint tho. The Y sockets will be propped in place and adjustable...I'm bad ass like that. Do you now ratings without the A19 glass?


in the reflectors they got a much higher par rating having a single bulb. with the Y sockets in the reflector the par rating was half. so you would be better off with a single bulb. Otherwise grab some philips a19's. the led placement is directed downward not from the sides.. There has been solder issues with the philips. They last about 9 months some of the time. but they have a 6 year warranty.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> [video=youtube_share;NampsFKlR58]http://youtu.be/NampsFKlR58[/video]


Yo Hyroot I've got his book

Dankswag


----------



## GreenSanta (Jan 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> [video=youtube_share;NampsFKlR58]http://youtu.be/NampsFKlR58[/video]


I like his style. The ending was great too and lots of great info throughout the video.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I used to run t5's for one you need the right bulbs. for veg imo htg agromax 5400k bulbs are the best. Anything higher than that on the kelvin scale is useless and produces very slow growth.. Since dropping the t5's imo 432 watts is alot for a 2x4. I run 420w over a 5x5 in veg.



I just grabbed the cheapo crap at walmart. I'm only concerned with getting them out of the seedling phase really. then I'll just fire up the 1000 watt mh.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 23, 2014)

I was doing TLO for 2 cycles and it wasnt bad at all, it was actually quite exciting growing huge plants in small pots. Great tasting herb, i admit tho that tlo is somewhat like a "hydroponic thinking" for soil. Compare tlo to my no till and theres really no comparison, damn i wish i took pics and journal my tlo experience


----------



## hyroot (Jan 23, 2014)

I don't like to do the spikes either. It disrupts the microbial life down below. Just topdressing. I looked into the ro water system he talked about. The counter top ones look good. I wonder how they compare to hydrologic. I've been using tap forever. there are ways to rid chloramine without filters


----------



## GreenSanta (Jan 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I don't like to do the spikes either. It disrupts the microbial life down below. Just topdressing. I looked into the ro water system he talked about. The counter top ones look good. I wonder how they compare to hydrologic. I've been using tap forever. there are ways to rid chloramine without filters


blackstrap molasse for chloramine but you can only use so much of it right? I am lucky here I think tapwater is pretty good though I have never tested it. I am curious about the spikes it would allow me to have overall weaker soil with the spikes I am definitely going to give it a try. It is true in nature you find ''pockets'' of food in the soil like wherever the animals pooed or where the rats died etc....


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jan 23, 2014)

Or where birds died. A friend of a friend shot a raven and put it in his garden. A few days later some dude with headphones attached to an antennae was walking around his yard. Followed the beeps right to the guys veggie garden. Dude said he found it on the side of the road. Damn thing had a radio bracelet. Gardening Native American style.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 23, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Or where birds died. A friend of a friend shot a raven and put it in his garden. A few days later some dude with headphones attached to an antennae was walking around his yard. Followed the beeps right to the guys veggie garden. Dude said he found it on the side of the road. Damn thing had a radio bracelet. Gardening Native American style.


 Or it was a CIA drone disguised as a Raven.


DankSwag


----------



## hyroot (Jan 23, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Or it was a CIA drone disguised as a Raven.
> 
> 
> DankSwag


amazon test drone lol


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 23, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> blackstrap molasse for chloramine but you can only use so much of it right? I am lucky here I think tapwater is pretty good though I have never tested it. I am curious about the spikes it would allow me to have overall weaker soil with the spikes I am definitely going to give it a try. It is true in nature you find ''pockets'' of food in the soil like wherever the animals pooed or where the rats died etc....


My well water is typically 30-50ppm all year around so I am good to go and I have to add CalMg, but I learned this before I got his book

He has master mix soil recipe a beefed up super soil with a balance of slow and fast releasing nutrients you have to cook like Subs before using due to high N and P sources.

Nonetheless the master mix recipe of his did best so far of all recipes and container style growing I've tried. I find the TLO layering style of building containers is helpful if you don't have cooked soil at the ready. This is where the layering and spikes help keep young plant roots safe till soil biology prepares food for consumption. 

Otherwise I would just prefer to build a soil that can go the whole distance, just add water which my PHOGS does for me keeping me busy doing other things.



DankSwag


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 23, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> My well water is typically 30-50ppm all year around so I am good to go and I have to add CalMg, but I learned this before I got his book
> 
> He has master mix soil recipe a beefed up super soil with a balance of slow and fast releasing nutrients you have to cook like Subs before using due to high N and P sources.
> 
> ...


Correct on last comment my apprentice. Just have it in soil, and add teas or top dress if necessary. Keep It Steelheader!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 24, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> blackstrap molasse for chloramine but you can only use so much of it right?* I am lucky here I think tapwater is pretty good though I have never tested it*. I am curious about the spikes it would allow me to have overall weaker soil with the spikes I am definitely going to give it a try. It is true in nature you find ''pockets'' of food in the soil like wherever the animals pooed or where the rats died etc....


You shouldn't have to have it tested. Just go on to your cities website and look for the yearly water analysis. They'll have all disolved solides, chlorine, chloramine, etc all listed as parts per million/billion.


----------



## Nizza (Jan 24, 2014)

saw this on RIU https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog32560-i-have-made-cactus-discovery.html

wonder if cactus would be great for ROLS, sort of like Aloe? Maybe i'll get one of each and grow them out this summer, and next winter do 3 indoor rols plants!
My babies just got their first watering of dyna gro foliage pro, and they "prayed"
first time since they were in veg that they prayed, but in veg all they got was water+rapidstart(first few waterings)
they are in happy frog, and i thought praying was just a ROLS thing, could this mean i have active microbes in my soil still? Or just a sign they are getting a nice diet?

love this thread, i can't wait till i get the money to make and amend my own soils and stop with the dyna gro bullshit.
hopefully the dyna will just be for hydro veggies, I have a shit ton of 6" pvc that would be great


----------



## NickNasty (Jan 24, 2014)

Praying is just a sign that there metabolism is in over drive. They are seeking out more energy from the light because they are processing things at a faster pace. It basically means they are happy and healthy.


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 24, 2014)

Nizza said:


> saw this on RIU https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog32560-i-have-made-cactus-discovery.html
> 
> wonder if cactus would be great for ROLS, sort of like Aloe? Maybe i'll get one of each and grow them out this summer, and next winter do 3 indoor rols plants!
> My babies just got their first watering of dyna gro foliage pro, and they "prayed"
> ...



I have been wondering about this with the Jade Plant....other peeps are still using yucca extract too, another succelent....I also have this fat succulent I bought, mistakenly thinking it was aloe, until I got home. The tag didn't identify it either.....although I have heard the jade tree plant is anti-fungal, but I bet something in aloe is too, though....

Succu......................... Jade


----------



## Nizza (Jan 24, 2014)

i agree, aloe and coconut seem like the cure-all's

it would be nice though, to see if these other plants have special characteristics that aloe doesn't.
We'll see right? I also, have a small succulent in a boot. I left it in full sun when it was pretty big, and everything got murdered and i thought it was dead. Weeks later, i see a little green thing there. I got pics over on my thread, which i actually just updated

there's pics of my amaryllis in there, that i took day-to-day photo's when it was gonna bloom. Still in progress, it's a 3 shoot bulb so only 1 has opened
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/773447-nizzas-3x-15-gallon-feminized-5.html#post10110103
oh yeah you'll also see the succulent in a boot in there haha

growing anything to me is fun! it's my ultimate hobby lol. This thread is definately one of my top favorite threads... oodles of info!


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 24, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> I have been wondering about this with the Jade Plant....other peeps are still using yucca extract too, another succelent....I also have this fat succulent I bought, mistakenly thinking it was aloe, until I got home. The tag didn't identify it either.....although I have heard the jade tree plant is anti-fungal, but I bet something in aloe is too, though....
> 
> Succu......................... Jade
> View attachment 2973135View attachment 2973136



Yo I've been growing these Aloe plants for months, I use them to clone with and even have one in a pot with a couple of clones I sexed and flowered young.



DankSwag


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 24, 2014)

^ oh man that thing is cool as hell. I wanna say it looks like a Crocus because of the flowers, but I can't count all the petals, but in the florescence is damn similar. 

Agree on growing whatever....I would grow anything that is a seed I guess  or spore


----------



## Nizza (Jan 24, 2014)

speaking of spores, how long will shrooms stay in your system for a drug test urine sample?
i had to quit blazing for a job....  so sad...
now i have a lot of energy and don't sleep as much, i thought it would be fun to trip again (haven't since high school)

nice aloe porn!
that makes me want to grow them soooo much more!


----------



## SpicySativa (Jan 24, 2014)

Nizza said:


> speaking of spores, how long will shrooms stay in your system for a drug test urine sample?
> i had to quit blazing for a job....  so sad...
> now i have a lot of energy and don't sleep as much, i thought it would be fun to trip again (haven't since high school)
> 
> ...


Quit blazing for a job interview? Not me, thank you. Check out Dr Greens Agent X. Works like a charm.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 24, 2014)

Does anyone else hear use tap? I just bubble over night with a smidge of BSM...about 1/8tsp per 5 gal.


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 24, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Yo I've been growing these Aloe plants for months, I use them to clone with and even have one in a pot with a couple of clones I sexed and flowered young.
> 
> View attachment 2973174View attachment 2973179
> 
> DankSwag


Noice Noice [does anybody watch K&P?]...whats your medium for the Aloe, I need to replant, those look like phat phuckers all the way around, nice smarty use!


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 24, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> Noice Noice [does anybody watch K&P?]...whats your medium for the Aloe, I need to replant, those look like phat phuckers all the way around, nice smarty use!


Thanks, I just use a little of this







With a little of this







1:1, cause the shit above is dame expensive. I use BG Natural as a base in building my soil it is also good for seedlings\clones.

DangSwag


----------



## Abiqua (Jan 24, 2014)

^ What is the top stuff? 

I have an idea already on the cactus mix knock off I was going to attempt, but just wondered if somebody just ran the standard ROLS formula. 

[Edit: Potting soil and compost, that it?]


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 24, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Does anyone else hear use tap? I just bubble over night with a smidge of BSM...about 1/8tsp per 5 gal.


No, but I do dab through my bubblier and take a shot of fireball whiskey on the side...

DankSwag


----------



## DANKSWAG (Jan 24, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> ^ What is the top stuff?
> 
> I have an idea already on the cactus mix knock off I was going to attempt, but just wondered if somebody just ran the standard ROLS formula.
> 
> [Edit: Potting soil and compost, that it?]


http://www.gardnerandbloome.com/products?brand=gardnerbloome&category=gardnerbloome-soils#13
GARDNER & BLOOME® EDEN VALLEY BLEND POTTING SOIL








Contains top-shelf organic ingredients like kapok seed meal, seabird guano, and sardine meal to help plants grow vigorously while developing abundant flowers & fruit.
High coconut coir content provides an environmentally sustainable amendment that improves drainage & moisture retention.
Crab chitin helps to naturally control fungus gnats and other soil borne pests.


DankSwag


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 24, 2014)

I just hit the worm jackpot!!! Thought it was a c-list killer :O, but I'm alive! His castings felt clay like, but not too moist. He used peat and backyard dirt for bedding. It had to be the clay in his topsoil. I wouldn't mind mixing in some clay like VC near the bottom or mixed in as a smaller %. With the diff texture (less aeration) how would you guys mix/incorporate?


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 24, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I just hit the worm jackpot!!! Thought it was a c-list killer :O, but I'm alive! His castings felt clay like, but not too moist. He used peat and backyard dirt for bedding. It had to be the clay in his topsoil. I wouldn't mind mixing in some clay like VC near the bottom or mixed in as a smaller %. With the diff texture (less aeration) how would you guys mix/incorporate?


 anything clay like rings alarms of drainage issues. My understanding that should be at the bottom when building a container. Or I would see if you could areate it with rice hulls? then top dress?

First thing off my dabbed out mind! If you all get a chance check out my DangSwag's Green Machine 2014 update.

DankSwag


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## Abiqua (Jan 24, 2014)

Does anyone use fresh aloe in their bubble cloners?


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## hyroot (Jan 24, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> Does anyone use fresh aloe in their bubble cloners?


just for cloning gel. I root cuts in soil. I use aloe in a foliar and teas


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## Abiqua (Jan 24, 2014)

^ I am using it for a gel and will root some in soil, but I wanted to break out the bubble cloner and see what's good. I have been using aloe as a foliar and in my seed tea. 

Kind of laying off the AACT for now, but I added it to that as well. Thanks for all the input and answering my stupid rook questions, but I appreciate it  

By the way Hy, been reading back, trying to find where you posted about drying the fresh aloe in the dehydrator. I had a couple of questions . Did it ever turn out [did you get it into powder form]? and did you do the whole leaf and then scrape it or just you just peel the outside and only dry the guts? 

Thanks dude!


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## hyroot (Jan 24, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> ^ I am using it for a gel and will root some in soil, but I wanted to break out the bubble cloner and see what's good. I have been using aloe as a foliar and in my seed tea.
> 
> Kind of laying off the AACT for now, but I added it to that as well. Thanks for all the input and answering my stupid rook questions, but I appreciate it
> 
> ...


in a bubbler bottled aloe juice would probably be better. Fresh aloe breaks down very fast. With in 20- 30 min it starts to break down

I haven't used the dehydrater in a while. 2 days at 140 degrees I think. Then puree'd and it made powder. The freezer method and oven method did not work to well. I bought aloe juice for the spray bottle. Fresh aloe kept clogging the sprayer. I use the fresh for everything else. For cloning. After I drain the sap from the leaf. I cut the tip of the leaf. Squeeze it to break up cellulose and looosen gel. Then dip cutting into leaf tip. I no longer filet the leaf for cloning.


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 24, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> ^ I am using it for a gel and will root some in soil, but I wanted to break out the bubble cloner and see what's good. I have been using aloe as a foliar and in my seed tea.
> 
> Kind of laying off the AACT for now, but I added it to that as well. Thanks for all the input and answering my stupid rook questions, but I appreciate it
> 
> ...


I am probably going to do something like that with some kelp, BioAg Ful Power for fulvic acid then mix with honey to create a jel like substance.
Some I will use without honey as a solution to soak my rapid rooters in. The the batch I mix with honey will be for applying to clone stems.

DankSwag


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## hyroot (Jan 24, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> I am probably going to do something like that with some kelp, BioAg Ful Power for fulvic acid then mix with honey to create a jel like substance.
> Some I will use without honey as a solution to soak my rapid rooters in. The the batch I mix with honey will be for applying to clone stems.
> 
> DankSwag


 
watch out for ants. They go after honey like my cat chasing the neighbors little dog


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## Abiqua (Jan 24, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> I am probably going to do something like that with some kelp, BioAg Ful Power for fulvic acid then mix with honey to create a jel like substance.
> Some I will use without honey as a solution to soak my rapid rooters in. The the batch I mix with honey will be for applying to clone stems.
> 
> DankSwag


I have used honey with great success, I used to dip then stick in my bubble cloner and let the sugars drip down into the water. Although I prefer craigslist honey, the store bought stuff is rarely even half honey. 

I wanna give aloe a try though, so maybe I should find some powder and combine with honey, good idea. Update us, if you do it soon


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> Does anyone use fresh aloe in their bubble cloners?


I have tried it...didnt work...Aloe vera is best used fresh...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 25, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> I have tried it...didnt work...Aloe vera is best used fresh...


Bubble cloners aren't really for this thread and mindset. Dip em in fresh aloe, poor some aloe jizz in hole, queef that 45 degree cut in there, and mist twice a day in weak ambient light, or you can put them in a dome, cover with sandwich bag, or plastic tops whatever instead of misting. Keep it all natural like hyroots moobs.


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Bubble cloners aren't really for this thread and mindset. Dip em in fresh aloe, poor some aloe jizz in hole, queef that 45 degree cut in there, and mist twice a day in weak ambient light, or you can put them in a dome, cover with sandwich bag, or plastic tops whatever instead of misting. Keep it all natural like hyroots moobs.


Yeah...but i love my bubble cloner...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 25, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Yeah...but i love my bubble cloner...


Aren't those things pricey? I think its an awesome idea and pretty spiffy. Why not try some alfalfa and kelp...filtered very very well of fine particles. I bet they'd explode like me on hyrootots moobies.


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Aren't those things pricey? I think its an awesome idea and pretty spiffy. Why not try some alfalfa and kelp...filtered very very well of fine particles. I bet they'd explode like me on hyrootots moobies.


Ahhahaha my little red friend....i do thingz quite cheaply....

So used a $4 7 litre snap lock container....covered with aluminium tape. On the lid...drill sawed out the holes (15 spot cloner) 
Used a $3 gardener knee-ing foam for the cloner holders...drill sawed out size up from drilled holes so they fit snuggly. Made incision in the 15 foam holders


Inside...used 2 x cheap air stones...glued to the bottom. Drilled holes for the air tubes to get in at the top of the container.
(Notice the different colour in foam...after a while they get a bit munted..so i made new ones) 


Placed on top of a heating mat



Sits under a 10w led floodlight

Yeah....i might try some kelp....just have to be careful in the bubble cloners as they are hydro...need a relatively quick 'strike' of roots and then get the clones out and clean it....can gump up very quickly. (With additives that is) 

For smaller cuts i do jiffy pellets.....but i like that my bubble cloner can handle big clones and that is what i use it for. See roots in 6-7 days...And the fact i can look and see what is going on helpz my impatient ways. 

They then go straight into my soil mix...take about a day to adjust...then business as usual..


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## Shwagbag (Jan 25, 2014)

Nice Cronikool!

What PH do you use for them? Do you inoculate with anything or just use plain water?


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> Nice Cronikool!
> 
> What PH do you use for them? Do you inoculate with anything or just use plain water?


Yeah works quite well....i dont believe in PH meters or TDS meters so i couldnt tell you.  Tap water that gets bubbled. 

I was using clonex to dip them in...(slapz hand...my only synthetic element in my grow room) but are constantly looking for a organic substitute...still havent tried willow weed...


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## Shwagbag (Jan 25, 2014)

No meters eh? Ahhhh, the joys of growing organically 

Very nice, gotta love the simplicity. I tried an aeroponic cloner for awhile, which I overpaid for heftily. I didn't have much success due to what I believe was raising water temps from constant spraying. I think I would have benefited from a recycling timer but never sprung for one. 

I like the idea of this better than aero.

Honestly I would be inclined to use non-organic for a cloner like that as well. Its nice to keep the water clean and free of any potential pathogens organic additives might invite to the party. You're using such minuscule doses that I can't imagine would effect the organic nature of your grow, so don't feel bad homey!


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2014)

Sorry to anyone who is offended from me 'soiling' this thread....


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## NickNasty (Jan 25, 2014)

I made one very similar back when I was illegal except it held 50 clones. They work great. I have a 12 spot one now that is not in use that I might bust out again. I have a whole house filter now and found they work better when there is chlorine in the water because it just keeps it more clean and the minerals in the water help maintain the plant . I would suggest not using anything organic in it either as they can grow stuff in the water. If you want to add something organic do a foilar feed that way it keeps your res clean.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 25, 2014)

I think humidity is the key to rooting before 7 days  Bad ass DIY!!! Do you foliar or maybe make some type of dome. You could prob get roots in 4 days. 

Clonex does work much better than aloe  Must resist the urge.


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2014)

NickNasty said:


> I made one very similar back when I was illegal except it held 50 clones. They work great. I have a 12 spot one now that is not in use that I might bust out again. I have a whole house filter now and found they work better when there is chlorine in the water because it just keeps it more clean and the minerals in the water help maintain the plant . I would suggest not using anything organic in it either as they can grow stuff in the water. If you want to add something organic do a foilar feed that way it keeps your res clean.


Good ideas Nick....so just foliar Aloe Vera perhapz? any other foliar suggestions?


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I think humidity is the key to rooting before 7 days  Bad ass DIY!!! Do you foliar or maybe make some type of dome. You could prob get roots in 4 days.
> 
> Clonex does work much better than aloe  Must resist the urge.


Hmmm a dome....hadnt thought about that...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 25, 2014)

Aloe, alfalfa, kelp, some form of silical. Aloe and plain water works great, but I like the extra kick of kelp and alfalfa tea for the harder to clone strains. I just had some Bodhi in a clean kept dome for 17 days without roots!!! Leaves looked great, I just got impatient and killed them lol.


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## NickNasty (Jan 25, 2014)

You don't need a dome with a bubble cloner they stay great without one even in really low humidity and really you don't even need to add anything like clonex or to foliar feed for that matter it just "might" speed things up. I have gotten roots with a bubble cloner in 4 days with unfiltered water but it takes much longer if its filtered.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 25, 2014)

Damn it. Too many DIYs. Adding this to the list.


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## Abiqua (Jan 25, 2014)

I have a homemaed aero cloner and a bubble cloner too. The bubble is a just a little 3 site, I made from a TupperWare container found out in the woods. 

I don't pH the water and have ran it straight, roots in 10 days. Honey seemed to speed it up to 6-7. 

I can see how this wasn't SUPER appropriate for the thread, but I do have some going into soil too, gonna foliar everybody with Aloe and coconut, rather than dump it into the bubble res [Great Idea] 




Edit: 
[Last night right after I took all my cuts [6x], half went into coco water and half into aloe. One got submerged in the aloe water on accident and was pretty limp when I tipped into soil, but I said fuck it. 

Just looked and it's happy as a clam, praying to me! ]


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 25, 2014)

You guys, with your little amount of clones, only need...well none...but if you want to foliar (it'll help)...add 3/4tsp aloe jizz to 16oz...puree...then....mist over/under thankful happy hungry foliage. stomata tomata...


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## Scotch089 (Jan 25, 2014)

I have been digging up old soil mix methods trying to grasp wtf is going down... making it a point to start at with the stickies, but not hopping to the end... 


....I cave and find some of the most familiar faces.... talking about BUBBLE [email protected]>? I wasn't ballsy enough to post it anywhere, but if your talking about bubblers... 

Alright alright ill get down to brass tacks.. I am going to give soil a whole hearted effort, and not (just) for the pcc, but if I am going to. I want to be 100 and 50% Organic, no bottles (except protekt unless I decide to listen to psu and order up the Agsil), I really love the idea of Tea's, though I do not want a compost bin (yet..?) I am trying to grasp the AACT thread a little at a time but my eyes can only take so make ipad screen at a time.. 

Digging up old threads has helped, the stickies are sweet for the first few pages but fuck... I am missing out on the simple shit still. (another day..)

Actually just got done reading some posts of Fli and root backing up their standpoints on "no guano, bottles," and speaking to the degree of a diffrerence to coco/hydro. I do want to take a second and thank a couple of you guys out there, going through so many threads in a span of time and seeing all those names CONSISTENTLY stand out with CONSISTENT information is kick ass. You guys know. Thanks. 

I am steered away from mixing my own soil, have the space... but if I can buy premixed bags, and reamend/recycle/etc. I would prefer that, as Id have to be buying the amendments sooner or later? Are there any premixed bags that are truly organic, recycleable, and enough to feed straight through? 

If it is really worth it.... ^^

I don't want to use my bottles, my hydro is my hydro, my soil is going to be organic. 

If running in fabric smart pots Im reading air, drainage and everything is a bit faster. Do you adjust the amount of "flow" the media has to this? Or just water according? 

Cost comparison to mixing your own and buying initial bags? Just seems like a bitch to make a ton of soil...


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 25, 2014)

glad to see you here!! 

I understand why ppl choose hydro over organics, however once u try ROLS, u will have one of those moments that u will bang you head saying, why the fuk haven't I done this years ago!!


start with compost and a worm bin,

if space is a issue then you can buy locally sourced compost and wormcastings


once that's established we can build your soil from scratch, trust me, it wont take up too much space for a personal batch!.

look into vermicompost, cant stress this enough to be successful n ROLS, a worm bin DOESNT take up too much space!


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## Scotch089 (Jan 25, 2014)

Thank you brother I just "started" a thread to consolidate, I know Im going to keep popping up with basic as shit questions. 

What is okay to compost? We are on an old school septic in the first place, so I have always considered a separate "scraps" bin, but is there a list of No-no's to keep out of the garden, or is it just more is better? ha
EDIT:^^nvm 
Figured a couple 5gals would get me rolling, in my space surely I wouldn't need more...


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 25, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Yeah...but i love my bubble cloner...


Thought the idea of bubble cloner or mister whatever was water spraying on stem simulating root growth? 
So I didn't think you would add anything. I know for a mister you wouldn't. But for bubbling I would try ful power fulvic acid and kelp and if you can add lots of aloe juice\gel those enzymes will get to stem on those cuttings. I just think you need more probably. Don't know.


Right now I am soaking my peat pellets in a h20 sans chlorine with 1 tablespoon kelp and 1 tsp fulvic acid. I am going to filet two or three stalks of aloe and mix into solution. 
Once these are soaked good, I will take my cuttings apply fresh aloe to the cuttings and place in pre-soaked peat pellets.

Keep you posted. 

Update...said I would keep posted. Here is pick of tote 3 gallon tote? 1 gallon h20 sans chlorine 1 tbsp liquid seaweed, 1 tbsp liquid kelp, 1 tbsp ful power fulvic acid. Filet two aloe stalks with gel stripped soaking in water with stalks sheath and some still attached gel\juice. I have 32 peat pellets soaking in this for a few hours now, probably should bubble as well but more likely will stir for in less then 8 hours I will be cutting clones for them.

I interned to soak for 24 but more likely will only be about 10-12. Should be okay for how I am using them. 


Be sure to check out my recent Bud Porn Update on DankSwag's Green Machine 2014 thread.


DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 26, 2014)

I'm still on the fence with the fulvic acid. I really want to be bottle free tho. What part of a typical soil mix has fulvic acid?


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## hyroot (Jan 26, 2014)

I never use fulvic... its an acid


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 26, 2014)

Looks like if you have peat and humus then your good...http://fertiorganicos.com/english/images/lib/ORGANIC_MATTER_HUMUS_HUMATE_HUMIC_ACID_FULVIC_ACID.pdf You just don't know you're using it hy...duh


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## hyroot (Jan 26, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Looks like if you have peat and humus then your good...http://fertiorganicos.com/english/images/lib/ORGANIC_MATTER_HUMUS_HUMATE_HUMIC_ACID_FULVIC_ACID.pdf You just don't know you're using it hy...duh


I took a bale of peatrmoss mixed in 3 cubic feet of recycled soil ( with homade vc already mixed in from a while ago). 1 cu ft of worm castings , 1 cu ft of compost, 2 cu ft pumice. watered and sprayed with compost tea's and sst's. Humus is compost and worm castings. broken down organic matter. for the next flower and next veg batch


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 26, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I took a bale of peatrmoss mixed in 3 cubic feet of recycled soil ( with homade vc already mixed in from a while ago). 1 cu ft of worm castings , 1 cu ft of compost, 2 cu ft pumice. watered and sprayed with compost tea's and sst's. Humus is compost and worm castings. broken down organic matter. for the next flower and next veg batch


I just started my first gen of peat...no coco. Hydrated peat with aloe and broke up all the clumps. Squeezed out until just moist. Mixed in a third of my first VC batch and another third of rice hulls and small/med lava. Added the usual rock dusts and amendments...no guano  or dolo #yolo. Just cooked for 2 weeks and put all my ceadlings in it. Found some baby worms while putting them in solo cups!!! My coco mix will be on second gen soon, stuff is working great. Can't wait to compare to peat, with same amendments.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 26, 2014)

Okay Cron, you have inspired me. Here is my bubble cloner tester. If it works I owe you a reach around k. Here's your idea kicked up a notch ...
So I have a staller that needs a fresh topped jump start. Here she is 1 week from showing 12/12fs, and my little tester soaking in aloe for 15 min after cut.
View attachment 2974912View attachment 2974915
Here she is going into a bubbling 2 day old kelp tea, pinch of peat moss, couple drops of fish hydolysate, couple drops of ProTekt, a clump of aloe jizz for the heck of it, and a smidgin of alfalfa. 
View attachment 2974918
I'll give her a mist, every morning and night, of kelp and alfalfa tea with aloe and Protekt. Water is 65 degrees....same ambien temp. Might slow things down a bit being in a cold basement.


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## Chronikool (Jan 26, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Okay Cron, you have inspired me. Here is my bubble cloner tester. If it works I owe you a reach around k. Here's your idea kicked up a notch ...


My idea? hahaha...yeah right...i do like reach aroundz where i can get them though....  



RedCarpetMatches said:


> So I have a staller that needs a fresh topped jump start. Here she is 1 week from showing 12/12fs, and my little tester soaking in aloe for 15 min after cut.
> 
> Here she is going into a bubbling 2 day old kelp tea, pinch of peat moss, couple drops of fish hydolysate, couple drops of ProTekt, a clump of aloe jizz for the heck of it, and a smidgin of alfalfa.
> View attachment 2974918
> I'll give her a mist, every morning and night, of kelp and alfalfa tea with aloe and Protekt. Water is 65 degrees....same ambien temp. Might slow things down a bit being in a cold basement.


interesting experiement  ....one thing that is essential for root growth is 'light depreciation'...i suggest cutting a tinfoil circle and poking a hole in the middle...leaves showing only

Also not sure about the stalk being fully submerged in the solution. The idea with the bubble cloner is to create a humidity for the root zone...rotting of the stalk may occur if fully submerged...maybe empty some out?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 26, 2014)

Excellent points Chronny!!! I'm replacing the top with foil when my gopher gets home, and you can't tell but only about a third of stem is in water. If this works better than normal, I'll convert my dome to be a bubbler. The only issue I see is the transition from water to soil without damaging roots. When rooting in rooters or soil you don't have that issue. I guess I'll hold the clone still and sprinkle in some medium, give container a little shake lol. I dunno.


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## Chronikool (Jan 26, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Excellent points Chronny!!! I'm replacing the top with foil when my gopher gets home, and you can't tell but only about a third of stem is in water. If this works better than normal, I'll convert my dome to be a bubbler. The only issue I see is the transition from water to soil without damaging roots. When rooting in rooters or soil you don't have that issue. I guess I'll hold the clone still and sprinkle in some medium, give container a little shake lol. I dunno.


Even just the very tip of the stalk touching the surface of the solution...i think that would be ideal. 

Yeah i was quite nervous about the transition between the bubbler and soil aswell.....but in your case...say you get a strike with roots....they will be getting nutrients from the solution...so you can afford to leave them in there to get 'established' so there are quite a tangle of roots...like 10cm long or something. The roots are also stronger and if you do break a couple in the transition...the plant can handle it.


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## Shwagbag (Jan 27, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I'm still on the fence with the fulvic acid. I really want to be bottle free tho. What part of a typical soil mix has fulvic acid?


I'm not sure of any to be specific but I think many have humic acid in them.



hyroot said:


> I never use fulvic... its an acid


Please elaborate Hyroot, I'm curious.

I use both Humic and Fulvic acids in my soil mixes. I don't use them from bottles, rather add them in powdered form from Kelp4less. They have a nice blend that I've used in teas but mostly just put into my mixes now. 

Fulvic Acid Facts


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 27, 2014)

My clone died


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## Scotch089 (Jan 27, 2014)

whelp, no reach around chroni... 

Is there that much stunting transferring from a bubble cloner (bare roots) to soil? I came in late on the topic

Right when I completely detatch myself from media....... 

...now hush, I have 190 some pages left...


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 27, 2014)

Mango Kush





Hey brothas and sistas now that I got your attention, 

i just finish smoking some fine 3 month cured ROLS grown northern lights and 6 month cured yoda og!. they are both so amazingly tasty, every puff till the very end was consistent, smooth and flavorful, each puff just as good as the last. northern lights is hard for me to describe, I say skunky musk, the yoda og taste of strong OG with a hint of sweetness skunk FUEL taste...

It got me thinkin how i hear from many hydro and organic growers how organic grown herb taste more "earthy" or "floral" 
Well isnt this false? If a strain is earthy by genetics then it will be earthy, but if its a cheese strain for example, then it should taste like cheese, not a earthy floral cheese taste. not saying floral or earthy is bad. just a misrepresentation on describing organic herb.

Dont get me started on how shitty hydro weed is(NO OFFENSE, OR FUCK IT TAKE OFFENCE), i live in cali, i know more hydro growers and see more hydro weed then there is water in cali! (Sure ive seen beautiful hydro weed, sure it smells good, but ive yet to try hydro weed that can compare to rols organic herb, prove me wrong)


Point being is rols herb increases the potential of the herb by a large margin. superior and enhanced flavor of the genetics.

I apologize, im baked, just so amazing how flavorful these herbs are. thoughts? agree? disagree?


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## hyroot (Jan 28, 2014)

^^^^ I agree 100%. Smoking on some bubble myself. From a mix of Cheese OG and NLxOG trim. Rols all night long all night. Curing for 3 months. Mine is long gone by a month after being done..

thoughts on rols pots

freshly pulled stalks out of pots. clover still sprouted. Thinking of sprinkling pureed oatmeal along with ewc to speed up process plus sst. drop plants in right away and veg for another 2 weeks... with out cooking pots for a month before transplanting into or use a new soil mix? already mixed and chillin.


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## Shwagbag (Jan 28, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Mango Kush
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doing smoke reports whilst blazed is the best way! lol thanks for the detailed post.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 28, 2014)

Do they label what's been grown in what in dispensaries? Buncha middle man rip off $*&^%($# Organics should cost twice as much at least IMO!!! No poison and the best taste hands down! I was just on another thread and some jahck arse said he'd put his dro bud against any rols LMAO! He must smoke ports...no offense hyheels. I just read a survey, and am just starting to see it first hand, that *80%* of people said they prefer regular shwagbag  over top shelp?!?! I see it here were people 'can only afford' reggie. WTF...time to order some big bud grown in the three Ps (piss, peat, and perlite). This really is a huge game changer. Why smoke a blunt to just get buzzed, when you can blast on rols once or twice and be ripped for hours?!


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## Shwagbag (Jan 28, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Do they label what's been grown in what in dispensaries? Buncha middle man rip off $*&^%($# Organics should cost twice as much at least IMO!!! No poison and the best taste hands down! I was just on another thread and some jahck arse said he'd put his dro bud against any rols LMAO! He must smoke ports...no offense hyheels. I just read a survey, and am just starting to see it first hand, that *80%* of people said they prefer regular shwagbag  over top shelp?!?! I see it here were people 'can only afford' reggie. WTF...time to order some big bud grown in the three Ps (piss, peat, and perlite). This really is a huge game changer. Why smoke a blunt to just get buzzed, when you can blast on rols once or twice and be ripped for hours?!


I don't know about the quality difference. If you're going after psychoactive pot, hydro will do every bit the potency of ROLS head to head, and most of the time out yield as well. 

People will pay more because of the ideology IMO, not because its so much better. Its all dank, and most people can't even tell the difference between the two. 

_Can_ it smell and taste better? Sure, but that doesn't mean it always does because not everyone possesses the same skills to grow it, and not everyone puts in the extra efforts. 

But yes, pretty much all of the pot here in Michigan is decent, and if someone can get a zip of dank that hasn't been meticulously trimmed for half or 2/3 the price of organic super dank, they'll probably take it. Organic only appeals to a small percentage of the people where I'm from, because money talks.

Me? I prefer organic top shelf, but I do grow it myself so that takes the monetary issue out of the equation lol.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 28, 2014)

Meeeshigan eh. Don't bring that dro crap down here  My old dro guy's shit used to make me cough up snot, and had me pass out in center field seats while a home run ball missed my slouched over head by inches lol. No question about growth rate and potency. If I didn't notice the taste diff and care about what goes in me, than DWC and Big Bud it is.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 28, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> I don't know about the quality difference. If you're going after psychoactive pot, hydro will do every bit the potency of ROLS head to head, and most of the time out yield as well.
> 
> People will pay more because of the ideology IMO, not because its so much better. Its all dank, and most people can't even tell the difference between the two.
> 
> ...


I see your point, and I don't entirely disagree. I 100% believe that bud grown with chemical ferts *can* be every bit as good as organically grown stuff. The problem is, it rarely is. I live in a medical state, and due to that I've had an opportunity to sample an ungodly amount of weed. The vast majority of the weed found in dispensaries does not stack up. If you stop and think about it, the reason why is clear. 

Any given seed has a genetic potential. Our goal as growers is to reach that potential. When a properly amended and inoculated organic soil is put together your job as a grower is mostly done. The plant and the army of microbes are now in charge, and through 1,000's of years of practice they dance their dance in tandem satisfying the plants every need. When you grow using chemicals, you are bypassing the soil food web altogether. You are putting yourself in charge of the plants needs, and are equipped with only a nutrient feeding chart and the knowledge gleaned from a few grow journals online. You are basically guessing as to what the plant needs, and when it needs it. 

Having said that, I do believe that someone with a good eye and a green thumb can a dial a plant in very well using chemical ferts...... but only after working with that specific strain for a few runs.


----------



## GandalfdaGreen (Jan 28, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I see your point, and I don't entirely disagree. I 100% believe that bud grown with chemical ferts *can* be every bit as good as organically grown stuff. The problem is, it rarely is. I live in a medical state, and due to that I've had an opportunity to sample an ungodly amount of weed. The vast majority of the weed found in dispensaries does not stack up. If you stop and think about it, the reason why is clear.
> 
> Any given seed has a genetic potential. Our goal as growers is to reach that potential. When a properly amended and inoculated organic soil is put together your job as a grower is mostly done. The plant and the army of microbes are now in charge, and through 1,000's of years of practice they dance their dance in tandem satisfying the plants every need. When you grow using chemicals, you are bypassing the soil food web altogether. You are putting yourself in charge of the plants needs, and are equipped with only a nutrient feeding chart and the knowledge gleaned from a few grow journals online. You are basically guessing as to what the plant needs, and when it needs it.
> 
> Having said that, I do believe that someone with a good eye and a green thumb can a dial a plant in very well using chemical ferts...... but only after working with that specific strain for a few runs.



Blasphemy. Pure Blasphemy.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 28, 2014)

What brand of BTI dunks are safe to use? Apparently my CTs, chitin, and VC don't contain chitin eating bacteria. Please don't answer 'hydro stow'


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 28, 2014)

I use this ....

http://www.amazon.com/Mosquito-Dunks-117-6-30-Ounce-Bits/dp/B0001AUF8G

Never tried any other brand.

edit: I got a good deal on some at Home Depot not long ago. When mosquitoes aren't a problem (around November/December) they discount whatever stock they have left. I believe I got it 50% off.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 28, 2014)

Good to see other perspectives on the matter. Its really hard for me to accept hydro being just as good organic. Thinking about that makes me get chills in my spine.

Im blessed enough to have the choice of food i eat, and i am also blessed enough to choose what herbs i inhale. Alot of people dont have this option, i can see why some people would choose swag or cheap hydro weed over the more expensive organic quality, its simple capitalist economics, most people struggle to gget by and therefore hydro crap and dollar menu is simply more convenient, sadly.

I stck to what i said earlier, i have yet to try a hydro weed that can come close to rols.

yo red where is this thread u speak of with the hydro dude? Ima take my whip out and regulate


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 28, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Good to see other perspectives on the matter. Its really hard for me to accept hydro being just as good organic. Thinking about that makes me get chills in my spine honestly.
> 
> Im blessed enough to have the choice of food i eat, and i am also blessed enough to choose what herbs i inhale. Alot of people dont have this option, i can see why some people would choose swag or cheap hudro weed over the mor expensive organic qualkty herb, its simple economics, most people struggle to gget by and therefore hydro crap and dollar menu is simply more convenient, sadly.
> 
> ...


I'm on your side. Really I am. lol

There are other factors involved. I want to smoke the cleanest product possible, and more importantly I want any sick patient that might smoke my bud to be inhaling something completely devoid of chemicals. I'm not sure how using chemicals to grow would translate in to what bi-products (if any) are present in the bud when it's smoked, but I'd rather not take that chance. There is also the environmental and sustainability factor as well which makes growing organically an easy choice. 

I really do stand by my comment on quality though. 9 times out of 10 an organically grown bud will be superior, but if you find an experienced chemical fert grower that has worked with a strain for a while, you wouldn't be able to distinguish between that bud and the organic bud. There are a couple growers here on RIU that grow using chemicals, and I have sampled their wares ...... and it's damn good.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 28, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I use this ....
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Mosquito-Dunks-117-6-30-Ounce-Bits/dp/B0001AUF8G
> 
> ...


Why are you buying bacteria hydro Stow? I looked at the HD brand's label and it said 2% pesticide or something like that. 1 dunk covers 100 sq'...sooo it should treat around 9 cu ft?! 1 cu ft being 12 sq ft right? This is prob wrong as I'm visualizing a effin cubed foot in my head. Feel like Raneman. Definitely 1728 cu" in a cu ' definitely. 

Whatever, how do you apply? I have a CT brewing now, can I just add it in? Should I crush and TD? Thanks stowdro!


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 28, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm on your side. Really I am. lol
> 
> There are other factors involved. I want to smoke the cleanest product possible, and more importantly I want any sick patient that might smoke my bud to be inhaling something completely devoid of chemicals. I'm not sure how using chemicals to grow would translate in to what bi-products (if any) are present in the bud when it's smoked, but I'd rather not take that chance. There is also the environmental and sustainability factor as well which makes growing organically an easy choice.
> 
> I really do stand by my comment on quality though. 9 times out of 10 an organically grown bud will be superior, but if you find an experienced chemical fert grower that has worked with a strain for a while, you wouldn't be able to distinguish between that bud and the organic bud. There are a couple growers here on RIU that grow using chemicals, and I have sampled their wares ...... and it's damn good.


Well said, i geuss i just have to find one of then 1 in a million hydro growers. Kinda ironic that most hydro growers i know would probley claim they are the best hydro grower haha


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 28, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> *Why are you buying bacteria hydro Stow? I looked at the HD brand's label and it said 2% pesticide or something like that.* 1 dunk covers 100 sq'...sooo it should treat around 9 cu ft?! 1 cu ft being 12 sq ft right? This is prob wrong as I'm visualizing a effin cubed foot in my head. Feel like Raneman. Definitely 1728 cu" in a cu ' definitely.
> 
> Whatever, how do you apply? I have a CT brewing now, can I just add it in? Should I crush and TD? Thanks stowdro!



http://mmbr.asm.org/content/62/3/775.full


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 28, 2014)

Red, I buy the granules and add 2 tablespoons per container (7 gallon) as a top-dress then water in. I put sticky traps on the surface of the soil to trap the adults. You shouldn't see any gnats in about 2 weeks. At least that's been my experience.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 28, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Why are you buying bacteria hydro Stow? I looked at the HD brand's label and it said 2% pesticide or something like that. 1 dunk covers 100 sq'...sooo it should treat around 9 cu ft?! 1 cu ft being 12 sq ft right? This is prob wrong as I'm visualizing a effin cubed foot in my head. Feel like *Raneman*. Definitely 1728 cu" in a cu ' definitely.
> 
> Whatever, how do you apply? I have a CT brewing now, can I just add it in? Should I crush and TD? Thanks stowdro!


You spell like Rain Man too.


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## Shwagbag (Jan 28, 2014)

Awesome discussion peeps. And I definitely agree that much is left in the hands of the grower with nutes, often too much. I much prefer organic, and when its done organically, I tend to love it even more.... The science behind it seems to be more rewarding as a grower, and that makes it fun as hell. Keep up the good work everyone


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## Mohican (Jan 28, 2014)

The compost pile grow was so easy and so healthy. I think the stump may even reveg it is still so healthy!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 28, 2014)

I have not met or done any hydro that doesn't have that 'crispiness' or hint of mint. The growth is insane in DWC and DTW! That's why I ran coco several runs. Felt like the best of both worlds. My go to was DNA Lemon Skunk. 54-56 days every time, stable as anything, potent, and good yielder. I'm thinking about converting half my space to cheap coco/KISS method...joining the dark lord synth and saving the good stuff for I.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jan 28, 2014)

Stumbled on this and thought I would share. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9OhxKlrWwc This guy talks about composting and what is really important to compost.


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## NickNasty (Jan 29, 2014)

I am going to chime in on a few things that really all pertain to one thing and that is the brix of your plant. Someone was saying that when they flush with molasses it gives better taste, the reason this is happening in my opinion is because you are adding easily broken down/available minerals at the end and you are raising the brix of your plant. Also the chem vs organic debate on flavor has to do with the same thing, how high the brix of your plant is. All plants will taste, smell and be healthier the higher the brix of that plant is regardless if it is organic or not. If you have tried an orange with a brix level of 8 and the same type of orange with a brix level 22 you would know that the one with 22 brix level was far superior whether it was grow organically or not . The same holds true with all plants, if you were to try two of the same type of apples or smell two of the same type of roses and one tastes/smells noticeably better you know that the brix is higher in one that tastes/smells better without ever even testing the brix. People think brix just measures dissolved sugars and while it can True Brix measures a combination of sugar, amino acids, oils, proteins, flavonoids, minerals and other goodies. Some people also think that organic tastes better but this is not necessarily true. You can use chemical components and have better tasting stuff then your organic counterpart and you can use chemical components and still have a very healthy soil food web and possibly even healthier if things are done right. It is all a matter of what you use and how you use it. Now I tend to grow mostly organic because I find it the easiest way for me to get the most out of my plants and keep a healthy soil and the easiest way to take care of a plant plus I don't like to use chemical pesticides. But just because you use chemical components does not mean you have to use bad chemical components or chemical components that will hurt your soil life. Anyways sorry for the rant but I just thought I would give people some food for thought. BTW I do believe that dead soil or a sterile medium like water will never produce as good of product as a diverse living soil will it's just you do not have to be completely organic to have a diverse living soil.


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## unkle mouse (Jan 29, 2014)

while the like button is broken,, guess I will have to like it his way.. I agree,, I agree ,I agree




foreverflyhi said:


> Good to see other perspectives on the matter. Its really hard for me to accept hydro being just as good organic. Thinking about that makes me get chills in my spine.
> 
> Im blessed enough to have the choice of food i eat, and i am also blessed enough to choose what herbs i inhale. Alot of people dont have this option, i can see why some people would choose swag or cheap hydro weed over the more expensive organic quality, its simple capitalist economics, most people struggle to gget by and therefore hydro crap and dollar menu is simply more convenient, sadly.
> 
> ...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

I think the Brix subject is very interesting (when it comes to wine lol) JK. Comparable or better tasting buds grown with chems tho...is there a thread for this? What about higher brix foods in worm bins? I gotta look into this Nick...little skeptical on your taste claims.


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## Wait, what? (Jan 29, 2014)

I'm old and I earned every wrinkle because I learn from my experiences, and I'll say this, with food, when I returned to real food (organic) the first thing that hit me was the taste. Milk, eggs, meat, it was like getting in a time machine to my childhood

The same thing with organic weed.


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2014)

@ Wait What - I totally agree. Everybody who tries my organic food is amazed at it's flavor.

@Nick Nasty - With oranges, adding a little copper to the water makes the oranges sweeter. Each plant has it's own process of producing better fruit. I am not sure whether brix in Canna will give you the same outcome as brix in grapes. Have you ever burned sugar? It is an awful stinky mess!

I do know one thing for sure. Growing in a well rounded compost pile (egg shells, banana peels, dandelions, grass, canna, kelp, minerals, bone ,blood...) produced the happiest bug free plant I have ever grown!







Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

I'd like to see a more even canopy there Mo


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## Shwagbag (Jan 29, 2014)

This one ought to drive you guys straight pissed, lol. I'm surprised this is still on Youtube b/c every P & T episode shows conez!

[video=youtube;5amLAMRQk5I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5amLAMRQk5I[/video]


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## NickNasty (Jan 29, 2014)

I think I am having a hard time explaining this properly so I am just going to put this in very simple terms. Most growers of anything do not add enough minerals whether they grow organically or not. Those who do will typically have better results then those who don't whether they grow organically or not. In my opinion this is where the biggest disparity in health, flavor and smell of a plant comes from because these are essential to certain plant processes. Most of us here add tons of minerals compared to most growers which I believe is a major factor in why our product is better. Of course there are other factors but I believe this to be one of the most important ones.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

Lets see we have GroShoMo, hyheels, hydostow, and now NicksBrix? WTHs going on in this thread?


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2014)

It was a well trained mainlined plant for about a minute. Then it hit the compost goodies and took off! I did some bending and staking trying to keep things even and then the rain just bent everything over. Fortunately a 2 foot difference in distance from the sun is pretty negligible 

It was close to being even here:




Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

Y'ever think about a greenhouse Mo? That rain would drive me nuts...how do you combat rot? I had an outdoor grow that was demolished by gophers and deer. Imagine hiking 45 min for nothing. I had a tarp to catch rain water and a wick. Fun stuff. You're blessed to have the space, and the best FREE lighting! Now invite me over damn it.


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2014)

RCM, come on down, you are the next contestant on "give the pipes a light"


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

Mohican said:


> RCM, come on down, you are the next contestant on "give the pipes a light"


You have enough? Want 5 on it? I'll match ya with some mids


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## hyroot (Jan 29, 2014)

be careful Red. he'll make you smoke til you drop


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

hyroot said:


> be careful Red. he'll make you smoke til you drop


I'd smoke that whole tree and be the first to OD on trees. Just put me in the tumbler with bokashi bran


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2014)

Back in the day a buddy and I smoked blonde hash in a closed up Mazda RX3-SP and tried to make it so smokey we couldn't see out of the window. I was so high and my mouth started tasting bitter. I looked over at my buddy and he had black stuff dripping down his lower lip. Oil was dripping out of the end of the little wooden pipe we were using. We smoked so much hash and we never got sick or ODed.


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2014)

Can't wait to make some Mulanje Ice Water Extract with my new washing machine! Frenchy style!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

See now I heard a gentle stir is best, BUT my OG XP buddy swears by the dorm room washing machine.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2014)

DP...how much is a secret recipe worth lol.


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## hyroot (Jan 29, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Can't wait to make some Mulanje Ice Water Extract with my new washing machine! Frenchy style!


I hope you have some left at the cup. I'm going to try save some of mine too.


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 30, 2014)

Hey about the frenchie hash, can this be dabbed?


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## DANKSWAG (Jan 30, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Hey about the frenchie hash, can this be dabbed?


If pressed properly yes, it will be sticky enough to attach to dabber.

DankSwag


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## hyroot (Feb 3, 2014)

Quick good read here
http://organiclifestyles.tamu.edu/soil/microbeindex.html




foreverflyhi said:


> Hey about the frenchie hash, can this be dabbed?


I've always done Matt Rize ice wax

https://www.rollitup.org/concentrates-extracts/367111-ice-wax-bubble-hash-matt.html

I'm going to attempt frenchy hash. The rest of my trim is dry and been curing for a week. So going to make it today.


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## Mohican (Feb 3, 2014)

I made some fresh trim ice water hash and it is so gooey! I am bringing that to the cup


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 3, 2014)

Ah Mohican I was hoping you'd send a carrier pigeon north my way with a gram or two attached!

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Feb 3, 2014)

Gotta come down here and visit Disneyland!


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 4, 2014)

I'd rather visit Universal Studios and Six Flags Amusement Park if that works? 

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 4, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I made some fresh trim ice water hash and it is so gooey! I am bringing that to the cup


Got any pics Mohican?

DankSwag


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## porterg843 (Feb 5, 2014)

What does everyone use to filter their water? Iv used ro forever my unit has to be replaced and im considering just running a carbon filter for sediment/chlorine/chloramines.


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Feb 5, 2014)

I use R/O for me I just buy the filters off of ebay or some site like it. The good thing about my 3 or 4 stage RO filter is it has a carbon filter, and I believe RO does not get out chloramines add something with high Potassium( vermicompost) to get out chloramines unless your going to drink it... 
I would like to see some Ice hash pics too!


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## porterg843 (Feb 6, 2014)

I used RO for hydro when I wanted 0ppm, but now that I do a living soil I don't see the point. Correct me if i'm wrong but wouldn't using lets say a Tall Boy with upgraded KDF85 filter get rid of the sediment and and the majority of chlorine/chloramine? I don't like how the RO wastes water. My main concern is the microbial health of my soil. Would a carbon filter allow ca mg and other beneficial minerals through thus reducing the the need to supplement? For now i'm using rain water but it won't last forever. Thanks for the help. 
]


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## Mohican (Feb 6, 2014)

Mythbusters did a test and found out that boiling water in a microwave grows bigger plants!


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## kindgarden (Feb 6, 2014)

I am new to this, and am about 1/4 way through this thread. I could not wait, and have a few questions for any experts who have a chance to answer. I have read much of the this forum, but apologize in advance if this is already discussed:

- It seems the consensus is that Crab/shrimp meal is highly recommended. Does anybody know the advantages besides chitin (and any evidence / side by side comparisons)? I have noted that my compost pile from time to time contains enormous amounts of arthropods (ants, pill bugs, pincher bugs, mites, spiders, centipedes, etc) which I understand have exoskeletons containing copious amounts of chitin. I assume many die and break down in the compost. Plus, I already use kelp, rock dust, and egg shells/vermicompost with my plants. Is there any clear evidence that crab/shrimp meal would provide return on investment, other than the generic recommendation of having "diversity" in your soil?? I would like to avoid it if I can. Like everyone, I am striving for sources as local as possible and trying to be as "simple" as possible. 

On the same token: Is anyone aware of any organic method to farm arthropods for their use as chitin? I am pretty sure every geography has its local arthropods, and I am pretty sure there is some organic (and simple) method to capture and farm arthropods for use in composting as chitin - may be yet to be discovered and tested. If I get positive feedback on this idea, I may come up with some ideas and test them in the future. Personally (and admittedly without evidence), based on the principles of this forum topic I believe nature provides enough chitin via arthropods to negate the necessity of adding crustaceans.

As i mentioned, I am new to this and owe much gratitude to those on this forum for sparking my interest - thank you!!


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## Mohican (Feb 6, 2014)

Sounds like you are on the right track. Universities have great websites for this kind of information. I like UC Davis. Find one close to you and start a relationship with one of the profs.


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## porterg843 (Feb 6, 2014)

kindgarden said:


> I am new to this, and am about 1/4 way through this thread. I could not wait, and have a few questions for any experts who have a chance to answer. I have read much of the this forum, but apologize in advance if this is already discussed:
> 
> - It seems the consensus is that Crab/shrimp meal is highly recommended. Does anybody know the advantages besides chitin (and any evidence / side by side comparisons)? I have noted that my compost pile from time to time contains enormous amounts of arthropods (ants, pill bugs, pincher bugs, mites, spiders, centipedes, etc) which I understand have exoskeletons containing copious amounts of chitin. I assume many die and break down in the compost. Plus, I already use kelp, rock dust, and egg shells/vermicompost with my plants. Is there any clear evidence that crab/shrimp meal would provide return on investment, other than the generic recommendation of having "diversity" in your soil?? I would like to avoid it if I can. Like everyone, I am striving for sources as local as possible and trying to be as "simple" as possible.
> 
> ...


I don't know what climate you live in but I collect all the cicada shells, there are literally millions of them in the summer, I crush them up and feed them to my worms. In the late fall I always get an infestation of lady bugs in my house trying to escape the cold I save the live ones but end up with piles of dead which I throw in the compost. I don't know how much chitin it adds and I still use crab meal but i imagine the amount of chitin depends on the weight of the exoskeletons you have collected. I have also been curious about the freeze dried plankton that is sold as fish food. It seems like it would have a lot more to offer than just chitin but I haven't found further info on that.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 6, 2014)

kindgarden said:


> I am new to this, and am about 1/4 way through this thread. I could not wait, and have a few questions for any experts who have a chance to answer. I have read much of the this forum, but apologize in advance if this is already discussed:
> 
> - It seems the consensus is that Crab/shrimp meal is highly recommended. Does anybody know the advantages besides chitin (and any evidence / side by side comparisons)? I have noted that my compost pile from time to time contains enormous amounts of arthropods (ants, pill bugs, pincher bugs, mites, spiders, centipedes, etc) which I understand have exoskeletons containing copious amounts of chitin. I assume many die and break down in the compost. Plus, I already use kelp, rock dust, and egg shells/vermicompost with my plants. Is there any clear evidence that crab/shrimp meal would provide return on investment, other than the generic recommendation of having "diversity" in your soil?? I would like to avoid it if I can. Like everyone, I am striving for sources as local as possible and trying to be as "simple" as possible.
> 
> ...


Good question. I really don't know if arthropod exoskeletons would *replace* something like crab shell meal. Aside from the chitin it is a good source of Phosphorus so I decided to order some. I'm not a fan of using bone meal so I lean on the crab shell meal pretty heavily to round out my macro nutrient input. 

I know that beetles molt a lot during their growth cycle, so you could be on to something here.


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## NickNasty (Feb 6, 2014)

I use a tall boy with a kdf 85 filter it works good for getting rid of chloramine. If you want to go a bit cheaper look into ascorbic acid filters or chlorine filters for showers they get rid of chloramine but leave all the other minerals in place.


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## Mohican (Feb 6, 2014)

Go to all of the places using bug zappers and collect the dead bugs. That is some killer goodness


----------



## DANKSWAG (Feb 6, 2014)

Seriously What episode was that?

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Feb 6, 2014)

I just saw it the other day. They were testing to see if microwaves made water unhealthy. Used lettuce plants. 5 different types of water and the microwaved water grew the best by far!


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## Mohican (Feb 6, 2014)

Episode 214 - Feb 1st

Here:


MythStatusTry at home?Notes*Microwave Water:*Water boiled in a microwave oven will kill plants.BustedDoAdam built a tray to hold four pairs of romaine lettuce plants, each receiving a different type of water: microwave-boiled, stove-boiled, unheated from the tap, and no water at all. The two boiled water samples were cooled to room temperature before being used. All plants received the same amounts of water and light (provided by controlled grow lights) for one week. At the end of this time, Adam found that the plants given microwave-boiled water had grown larger than all the others, and that the ones given no water had died. He noted that testing this myth posed no safety hazards.


----------



## hyroot (Feb 6, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Episode 214 - Feb 1st
> 
> Here:
> 
> ...


funny thing.. My sister in law was taking some class that said if you microwave water and then water the plant it kills it. they tried it and it happened.. I called them out when she was demonstrating. Plants can only withstand certain temps of water. They were not letting the water cool. so the heat was killing them hence the myth.


thats alot of water to microwave or boil. I use 16 gallons of water in flower every watering.


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## Mohican (Feb 6, 2014)

Haha - I wonder if you can water plants in the winter with warm water to keep the roots happy?


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## porterg843 (Feb 6, 2014)

NickNasty said:


> I use a tall boy with a kdf 85 filter it works good for getting rid of chloramine. If you want to go a bit cheaper look into ascorbic acid filters or chlorine filters for showers they get rid of chloramine but leave all the other minerals in place.


This is the answer I'v been looking for. I want to buy the tall boy kdf 85 and nix the RO.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 6, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I just saw it the other day. They were testing to see if microwaves made water unhealthy. Used lettuce plants. 5 different types of water and the microwaved water grew the best by far!


Cool beans, be sure to check out my latest post in DangSwag's GreenMachine 2014.

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 7, 2014)

Garden in downtown San Diego, unfurtantly the soil is contaminated with metals due to urban city and construction near by. This soil in this no till bed is now in its 2nd year, it has been planted with all sortd of metal leaching plants, mainly sunflowers. As soon as this round is done the soil will be tested agian, and hopefully will be safe to grow veggies

Sorry i wasnt able to upload more pics, will try agian


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## Mohican (Feb 7, 2014)

Those sunflowers are beautiful! Are you coming to the LA Cup?


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 7, 2014)

I really wish i could go, but cant make it due to work schedule


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 8, 2014)

Say does anyone have experience thoughts about using nut shells for aeration in a soil mix? I like to eat raw nuts myself and have plenty of nut shell pieces to utilize if they are use full for anything?

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 8, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Say does anyone have experience thoughts about using nut shells for aeration in a soil mix? I like to eat raw nuts myself and have plenty of nut shell pieces to utilize if they are use full for anything?
> 
> DankSwag


Not sure, maybe they would eventually decompose?


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 8, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Not sure, maybe they would eventually decompose?


Ya that was my thought since they would take forever to break down they would be great for aeration and light weight unless someone can think of a reason.

I am thinking since it is carbon in a harden fiber shell great refuge for micro life. How it would effect drainage used solo might be an issue, would they need to be soaked in a High N alfalfa tea to provide additional N should they find it a readily available carbon food source? Not likely to decompose as quickly as rice hulls which I am told to soak them in alfalfa to negate any readily available N for plants that would be consumed by micro beast having a multiplication orgy.

I've believe I've accomplished this myself when I watered with a compost tea high in molasses (too much sweetness at once) that I bubbled good strong pump multiple air injectors min 36 hours. My soil did not have enough N to keep everyone happy, plants suffered, by slightly only one leaf set. Once I top dressed fish compost, water with alfalfa tea and added a little oyster shell for calcium to help in the processing of N and other nutrients. Plants recovered and once micro beast calmed down died off and produced waste this also brought balance back.

Therefore I think it is important to ensure plenty of N when adding beast or carbon sources that break down quickly and feed them like Molasses.
So ensure natural sources from mother earth are providing the N you need for if you set lose a hoard of beast or put food out for them your plants will suffer if there is not adequate N for all. I am told to maximize available nitrogen in so and avoid the robbing of nitrogen from the soil our ladies love to grow from and to keep a balance of Fungi and Bacteria to keep the ration lower than standard decomposition of C/N 30:1 or 30, instead 20 is ideal in attempting to maximize available N in soil. 

So carbon loading is an art, too much you will rob N from soil to feed micro best, to little excessive is changed to ammonia.
Since the scale seem to be 20-30 when it comes to beneficial C to N rations. Where 30 to 1 at top end for decomposing where you want to heat things up and have aeration to ensure beneficial bacteria rule.

I believe closer to 20 is where we should be seeing the composition of the soil in our pots, this is the red line for vegging if you want to get exponential growth. Besides isn't vegging where we really want the N boost.

Be careful with your N sources when adding to existing soil webs especially if you enjoy and want to benefits of Fungi, too much in the soil especially from a "hot" N source like blood meal or a guano that has not be non composted. This will catalyze micro life and decomposition is accelerated into overdrive causing fluctuation in soil PH essentially cooking the soil causing fungi to dwindle and die. 

Anywise if you find you over did the carbs go with N lite and bring the balance of C to N into proper range.

And wouldn't you know it as I was writing this looking for data to support my findings and to expound on them.

http://whatcom.wsu.edu/ag/compost/fundamentals/needs_carbon_nitrogen.htm

DankSwag


----------



## Thedillestpickle (Feb 10, 2014)

I have a simple question for everyone. Any anetdotal experiences or experiments would be good to hear about. 

I'm wondering if running organic fertilizers(neem meal, blood meal, bat guano etc.) through a vermicomposter will make the nutrients faster release(thus more likely to cause burn), or slower release. 

It's a simple question but the answer may be a bit complex, so any personal experiences would be valuable. 

Thank you.


----------



## Wallflower1 (Feb 10, 2014)

I am currently in a one week cooking process for a organic soil which includes: The following was proportioned out in a 5 gal bucket 1 part refers to 5 gal


1 part pro mix
1/2 part perlite
1 part charlies composted free range additive free chicken compost with veg compost
1 1/2 cup tomato tone fert espoma
1 cup kelp
1cup organic crab shell 
1 cup green sand
3 cups rock dust 
1cup alfafa meal
1 tsp mycorrhizae inoculant mixed with water
3/4 cup lime pellets
I mixed the above with water mixed with molasses 

If anyone reading this can see that there would be an additional ingredient I should include please advise, I am wanting to use the notill method. One more thing since compost is already cooked do I still need to wait 3 weeks?


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## Mohican (Feb 10, 2014)

Epsom salts?


----------



## Wallflower1 (Feb 10, 2014)

Thanks good idea I will research how much I should put in.


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 10, 2014)

Thedillestpickle said:


> I have a simple question for everyone. Any anetdotal experiences or experiments would be good to hear about.
> 
> I'm wondering if running organic fertilizers(neem meal, blood meal, bat guano etc.) through a vermicomposter will make the nutrients faster release(thus more likely to cause burn), or slower release.
> 
> ...


Vermiculture is what you are talking about, yes this is a practice that is done for us no tillers. 


An example would be to add a little more of egg shells or something rich in calcium, this will be digested by the worms and the worms will shit out a calcium rich shit. But of course we dont just focus on calcium, other food scraps that are rich in other key ingrediants work as well.
More info here https://www.rollitup.org/organics/637587-vermicomposters-unite-official-worm-farmers.html


top dressing or amending our rich vermiSHiT is key to success in ROLS


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## Thedillestpickle (Feb 10, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Vermiculture is what you are talking about, yes this is a practice that is done for us no tillers.
> 
> 
> An example would be to add a little more of egg shells or something rich in calcium, this will be digested by the worms and the worms will shit out a calcium rich shit. But of course we dont just focus on calcium, other food scraps that are rich in other key ingrediants work as well.
> ...


Trial and error will be the only way to really dial in what will work best. 
I understand that the worms will break things down to make them more available.



There is definitely a lot of guesswork involved in organic growing. I think it's probably a good idea to start with a solid foundation and slowly work from there. 



I have built a rather large indoor flow-through vermiculture bin. roughly 4 square feet area and 20 inches deep. It will take a while for the worms to multiply to full potential but eventually I hope to be generating a lot of castings. 


Instead of mixing the castings with the organic fertilizers and perlite etc... I plan to mix my bedding material (wetted coco) with a measured fertilizer(bat guano and bone meal) amount and run the mixture through the bin to maximize nutrient availability. Obviously this will change the dynamic property of the fertilizer additions so that calculating appropriate additions will need to be adjusted for the extra availability of nutrients. What I wonder however, is whether this will make nutrient burn more likely, or if the CEC levels of the humus will help to counter-act any excess available nutrient to prevent over-uptake by the plants. 


In more simple words: I plan to mix up a common organic soil recipe that I have found on the net, and run it through my worm bin, along with my food scraps, then mix the resulting castings at 50/50 with perlite.


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## Mohican (Feb 10, 2014)

After it has been through the worms I think it is fine for use without burning. I heard a long time ago that rabbit manure fed to worms makes the best worms. I wonder what kind of castings it would make?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 10, 2014)

Thedillestpickle said:


> Trial and error will be the only way to really dial in what will work best.
> I understand that the worms will break things down to make them more available.
> 
> 
> ...


You won't get burn if you let a mix 'cook' or decompose. I actually have 1 of my worm bins dedicated to a very nutrient rich VC for top dressing and transplanting. I amended this bin with 1/4 cup kelp, alfalfa, neem, and crab shell. I was a little nervous about how hot the mix would get, so I dug into that black gold goodness to check the temp daily. It never even got warm. You could amend the VC and use less in your soil mix if you wanted. It's really about being local, getting off the bottle, availability, budget, preference, and commitment. Once you get a good cooked mix...all you have to do is add water  It actually takes all of the guess work out, and the girl ends up 'taking what she wants'. If I were you, I'd read the first quick half of Teaming with Microbes' and this thread. Once you go black gold, you won't go back.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 10, 2014)

Mohican said:


> After it has been through the worms I think it is fine for use without burning. I heard a long time ago that rabbit manure fed to worms makes the best worms. I wonder what kind of castings it would make?


Mo, 

I hear the same and if I thought I would be able to take care of one I would. Need to find a source perhaps craigslist? Thoughts, things to check with those who raise bunnies? 

I don't know what buy the neighbor's kid a rabbit and promise to collect it's droppings? Not sure exactly how to source, but I do know rabbit poo is the best shit out there if they are feed right.

DankSwag?


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 10, 2014)

If you happen to live by a canyon, im sure theres rabbit poop everywhere! Hehehe


----------



## Chronikool (Feb 11, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> If you happen to live by a canyon, im sure theres rabbit poop everywhere! Hehehe


You sneaky little fucker...


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 11, 2014)

Picking up rabbit poo...now that's local. A lot cleaner than shitting on your plants.


----------



## snowboarder396 (Feb 11, 2014)

wow this thread has come a long way and its been a long time since i have been active on here. trying to maybe catch up on info when I can, school has kept me very busy.

Just for some info on DE from comments made back in november. DE is not a pesticide its a mechanical pest killer. it does not work when wet, therefore doing a foilar spray will not help for pest management. DE has to be dry for pests. 

Loving how more people are becoming more active in this method as well. is Rorg, Headtreep, and Cann still around?


----------



## DANKSWAG (Feb 11, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> wow this thread has come a long way and its been a long time since i have been active on here. trying to maybe catch up on info when I can, school has kept me very busy.
> 
> Just for some info on DE from comments made back in november. DE is not a pesticide its a mechanical pest killer. it does not work when wet, therefore doing a foilar spray will not help for pest management. DE has to be dry for pests.
> 
> Loving how more people are becoming more active in this method as well. is Rorg, Headtreep, and Cann still around?


SB,

You are so right when wet doesn't work, however after spraying with DE a funny thing happens air warmth dries it and thus its razor cutting skeletal particles again start slicing into pest.

Try it and see
DankSwag


----------



## unkle mouse (Feb 11, 2014)

now that is a DAM good idea



Mohican said:


> Go to all of the places using bug zappers and collect the dead bugs. That is some killer goodness


----------



## unkle mouse (Feb 11, 2014)

that is exactly what I do, my organic tea pot sets under my central heater vent in my unused bedroom, the vent cover is off so it is a direct push of warm air on my tea keeping it at room temps at all time



Mohican said:


> Haha - I wonder if you can water plants in the winter with warm water to keep the roots happy?


----------



## unkle mouse (Feb 11, 2014)

study.. study..study.... dammit... ok.. I just did start a worm bin,, 500 plus strong




foreverflyhi said:


> Vermiculture is what you are talking about, yes this is a practice that is done for us no tillers.
> 
> 
> An example would be to add a little more of egg shells or something rich in calcium, this will be digested by the worms and the worms will shit out a calcium rich shit. But of course we dont just focus on calcium, other food scraps that are rich in other key ingrediants work as well.
> ...


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 11, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> SB,
> 
> You are so right when wet doesn't work, however after spraying with DE a funny thing happens air warmth dries it and thus its razor cutting skeletal particles again start slicing into pest.
> 
> ...


Haha, 

do people spray DE during flower? This is somethig that i view as a negative during flower, just like DANKSWAG said, it will dry up and essentially stay on the surface, heard a couple farmers say they use it during flowering, wouldnt want to inhale de, that shit will cut up your lungs


----------



## snowboarder396 (Feb 11, 2014)

DE will dryout but seems to take a long time, it turns to a mud like consistency. Ive used it on top of soil and around containers at the base. If i apply it to any plant surface i use a duster that sprays it on dry not wet.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 11, 2014)

I've read about people using DE in there worm bins.


----------



## Thedillestpickle (Feb 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You won't get burn if you let a mix 'cook' or decompose. I actually have 1 of my worm bins dedicated to a very nutrient rich VC for top dressing and transplanting. I amended this bin with 1/4 cup kelp, alfalfa, neem, and crab shell. I was a little nervous about how hot the mix would get, so I dug into that black gold goodness to check the temp daily. It never even got warm. You could amend the VC and use less in your soil mix if you wanted. It's really about being local, getting off the bottle, availability, budget, preference, and commitment. Once you get a good cooked mix...all you have to do is add water  It actually takes all of the guess work out, and the girl ends up 'taking what she wants'. If I were you, I'd read the first quick half of Teaming with Microbes' and this thread. Once you go black gold, you won't go back.



Glad to hear you are doing that and it's working. 

I don't know that I see the benefit of "no till" (other than if you are using massive pots or beds)but I definitely intend to recycle my soil once I get it going. I guess you have to get a feel for what the soil needs added back so that you don't go deficient or overdose and burn. But it sounds like the good news is that there is a lot of buffer room if you let things break down.
I have only grown with synthetics but the mixing and pHing and mix and pHing etc. plus trying to figure out what products were actually beneficial and which were just a waste of money... too much headache. 

I think I will start off with a basic recipe, I'm not planning to use the subcool recipe because it seems out of balance(not very much worm casting/compost added). I'll be aiming for something like 30% castings to start.

I'll have to find myself that book. It sounds like a good resource. 
Thank you


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## Mohican (Feb 11, 2014)

DE is like microscopic shards of glass. That is how it kills bugs. I am not sure whether worms could handle the texture.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 11, 2014)

Mohican said:


> DE is like microscopic shards of glass. That is how it kills bugs. I am not sure whether worms could handle the texture.


I read it on a vermicompost forum. They said it only hurts the hard exo bugs. You can try it first and let me know if it works k.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 11, 2014)

I see how this is going, who wants to expose their worms to something that kills bugs, so let's draw worms the shortest one gets to use their worm bin as the guinea pig.


DankSwag


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## hyroot (Feb 11, 2014)

De also dehydrates bugs... And dehydration is very bad for worms... They are 90% water.. throw some green sand or egg shells in there..


has anyone used gro kashi ? I got a free pack of it at the cup..


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 11, 2014)

Yup i used it hyroot, only had a little but i beleive u can sustain it and have a constant suppy.


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 11, 2014)

ur idea on buildig your soil with 30% compost is great, shit u should do 40%!!
And even better to stay away from super soil, just like u said will need a bigger pot for better results.


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## hyroot (Feb 11, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Yup i used it hyroot, only had a little but i beleive u can sustain it and have a constant suppy.



did you like it. ?


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 11, 2014)

hyroot said:


> did you like it. ?


I top dress using gro kashi with a bunch of nettle and wormcasting, i did notice the nettle decompose faster then usual, remember seeing a bunch of white myscelium grow everywhere, then suddenly dissapear


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## hyroot (Feb 11, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> I top dress using gro kashi with a bunch of nettle and wormcasting, i did notice the nettle decompose faster then usual, remember seeing a bunch of white myscelium grow everywhere, then suddenly dissapear


they show the white myscellium on their site. Good to know its real. I didn't get enough to top dress. I may use it in a tea then. I'm going to pick up more castings sometime this week.. I have everything for 2 more 2 level bins except the worms.. I will probably order next week. I still got bills. Got extensions on some after all the loot I spent this past week.

it was fun and worth it. My life is usually boring, eat sleep, work, garden, smoke, repeat.. On the plus side. I started haging out with my x. (3 x's ago) . Its been 5 years. We are both doing better than we were 5 years ago and definitely diggin each others company..


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 11, 2014)

Yup you can double what u have or even triple, you just need some sort of
mill, or rye or even semi cooked rice and colinate it with the amount you have.

Hehehe hyroot jr, 
my young grass hopper, 
life is like a worm in a bin, we eat, sleep, shit, and fuck and do it all over, let that be a lesson for u...


----------



## hyroot (Feb 11, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Yup you can double what u have or even triple, you just need some sort of
> mill, or rye or even semi cooked rice and colinate it with the amount you have.
> 
> Hehehe hyroot jr,
> ...


would that work with oatmeal? I have so much oatmeal..


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 11, 2014)

Should work, just have to grind it up and mix with enough water to moisten it up, add in warm place, all the microbes and fungi should colinate it, bam, mix that with ur worm castig and bam agian


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## hyroot (Feb 12, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Should work, just have to grind it up and mix with enough water to moisten it up, add in warm place, all the microbes and fungi should colinate it, bam, mix that with ur worm castig and bam agian


should I keep it separate or add it to the worm bin? Or both?


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## boblawblah421 (Feb 12, 2014)

Best meds I've done so far...







Thanks to everyone here for making this possible.


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## Mohican (Feb 12, 2014)

Well done! Clap clap clap


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## hyroot (Feb 12, 2014)

Awesome job there Bob!!!


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 12, 2014)

hyroot said:


> should I keep it separate or add it to the worm bin? Or both?


I would experiement and add to worms


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 12, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> Best meds I've done so far...
> 
> View attachment 2992064View attachment 2992071
> View attachment 2992072View attachment 2992082View attachment 2992073
> ...


Double post!! Beautiful!!! U got plants going up your lights? So sick!


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## hyroot (Feb 12, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> I would experiement and add to worms


it says 1/3 cup per gal of water for tea. I had 3 gallons left over that's been aerating for 3 days after last watering, there's still foam. Kelp / alfalfa tea. I added 15 more gallons of water. More kelp meal, alfalfa meal, aloe Vera juice, and molasses. An hour later added 3 tbsp of gro kashi. After adding more water the foam went away (water retention). 20 min after adding gro kashi it foamed up quite a bit.

I buried romaine lettuce and mushroom slurry in the bin. Then sprinkled gro kashi and pureed oatmeal. Foliar sprayed bin with good water.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 12, 2014)

Blablob you crazy mad scientist you...start a thread already!


----------



## boblawblah421 (Feb 12, 2014)

Thanks er'body.

Seven years of reading, hard work, blood, sweat, tears, and loads of fun have gotten me to this point.

Can't wait to see where I'll be in another seven years.


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## Steelheader3430 (Feb 12, 2014)

I sprinkled some organic baby food oatmeal on top of a 50/50 mix of ewc and Oly fish compost, then covered with foil and placed on a heating mat. Now the fungus is turning black. It started with black dots and has continued. Can anyone tell me if it is a bad sign that its turned black like that? View attachment 2992793


----------



## boblawblah421 (Feb 12, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I sprinkled some organic baby food oatmeal on top of a 50/50 mix of ewc and Oly fish compost, then covered with foil and placed on a heating mat. Now the fungus is turning black. It started with black dots and has continued. Can anyone tell me if it is a bad sign that its turned black like that? View attachment 2992793


Personally... I'd probably use it for a small number of plants, and see what happens. I haven't experienced anything looking like this since I've gotten a better grasp on living organics. I had in the past, and discarded it. I'd experiment with it today.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 12, 2014)

Steel's back with a nice non WT avatar!!! Mix that goodness up and throw it in. How's the Bodhi coming along?


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Feb 12, 2014)

The babies are good red. We had a power outage last night and when I talked my wife thru turning on the lights she remarked "awwww they're soooo cute". I'll do some research on the mold turning black like that. I might end up tossing it and starting over.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 12, 2014)

I'd keep the white cake. Us poor folks don't throw away fungi. Congrats on upgrading your lights.


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## Steelheader3430 (Feb 13, 2014)

No up grade yet just didn't need the big one for sprouts. I'll probably start a tea tonight so it'll be ready after work tomorrow.


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## hyroot (Feb 13, 2014)

Re-growing Lettuce | Lessons in Farming http://lessonsinfarming.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/re-growing-lettuce/


----------



## Mohican (Feb 13, 2014)

Very cool - I have another plant to grow!


----------



## GreenSanta (Feb 13, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Re-growing Lettuce | Lessons in Farming http://lessonsinfarming.wordpress.com/2013/04/01/re-growing-lettuce/


holy crap hyroot thats a good one hheehe!


----------



## GreenSanta (Feb 13, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> double post!! Beautiful!!! U got plants going up your lights? So sick!


very nice garden


EDIT I thought it was yours foreverflyhi ,... congrats boblaw keep it up


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 13, 2014)

I wonder how that lettuce tastes. Wish my plants reveg'd that quick.


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## Mohican (Feb 13, 2014)

The compost pile grown Mulanje is starting to reveg!




Cheers,
Mo


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 13, 2014)

Cool very cool


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 13, 2014)

Damn it Mo ya got me again. Go to look at one pic and end up looking through an album


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## Mohican (Feb 13, 2014)

Sorry! I do the same thing when I am taking pictures!

Can I regrow pizza?


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## Chronikool (Feb 13, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Can I regrow pizza?


Of course....if you like the 'blue fuzz' flavour...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 13, 2014)

Mmmmmm....blue frumunda cheese


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## Mohican (Feb 14, 2014)

Fuzzy frumunda daboobs cheese?


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 14, 2014)

Mohican , DE only works on hard exo skeletons, arthropods. It gets between their hard shells and does act like shards of glass shredding them up and slowly dehydrating them, I don't think it would harm worms due to the fact de would get wet with soil moisture being in the worm bin. However it does turn more into a thick like muddy substance and I'm not sure how that would affect the bin. I guess would depend on how much was in it.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 14, 2014)

I tried DE on a plant once and said it was cocaine to improve growth speed hehe 






Cheers,
Mo


----------



## hyroot (Feb 14, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Sorry! I do the same thing when I am taking pictures!
> 
> Can I regrow pizza?


the government said pizza is a vegetable lol


----------



## Mohican (Feb 14, 2014)

Hahaha!

My cans of recycled soil are smelling wonderful. The veggie compost has been sitting in there for a couple months. I will mix this all with the compost pile and worm castings and see what magic happens!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 14, 2014)

DE doesn't harm worms. I'd rather wait for spring so I can pick some horsetail for Silica. You Cali boys don't know how good ya got it. Happy Valentines ladies(hyheels) and gents.


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## Mohican (Feb 14, 2014)

I add all of the dandelions growing in the yard to the pile. Great source of many things especially silica!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 14, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I add all of the dandelions growing in the yard to the pile. Great source of many things especially silica!


Yes that too! I'd dedicate a section of the yard just for neem, comfrey, aloe...you name it.


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## hyroot (Feb 14, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I add all of the dandelions growing in the yard to the pile. Great source of many things especially silica!


Ima be in OC sometime within the next week. Save me some dandelions.. They are so hard to come by out here.. I was told at a farmers market at Laguna hills mall there is a guy who sells dandelions... I don't know if that's true.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Feb 14, 2014)

Talked to my local organics guy and he said the mold turning greyish color could be age, or temp, or dehydration. That guy and his wife talk too damn much. They mean well but they aren't the best at giving linear information. A lot of jumping around and not finishing thoughts. 
Here's a recipe he gave me for growing fungus.

1/2 lb of compost (not ewc)
3/4 teaspoon fish hydrosylate
3/4 teaspoon soluplex
and enough water to squeeze a drop of liquid out of the mix after mixing your baby food oatmeal. He didn't give me a certain amount of oatmeal to add but I just dust generously. 

Whats the consensus on soluplex? I guess its on the list to be labeled organic just waiting on the stamp. He started going on about how adding the soluplex increases all the bene's we love so much.

He also will uncover his mix at night to collect all the spores in the air then cover to keep it dark during the day.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 14, 2014)

Steel, you should check out ff's BIM thread...it deserves a good bump.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 14, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Steel, you should check out ff's BIM thread...it deserves a good bump.


On it,

been super busy with harvest and plus my next post needed some proper experimenting, glad i did because i kinda fucked up on the cal mag hehehe


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## hyroot (Feb 16, 2014)

That regrowing lettuce thing totally works.. 2 days sitting in water(the crown part) 2 inches of new leaf growth and no roots .. I'll post a pic. Sometime when I turn on my PC. on the windows phone that can't upload pics...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 17, 2014)

hyroot said:


> That regrowing lettuce thing totally works.. 2 days sitting in water(the crown part) 2 inches of new leaf growth and no roots .. I'll post a pic. Sometime when I turn on my PC. on the windows phone that can't upload pics...


I've had aquaponic lettuce that was huge, but didn't taste right. I wonder if yours will be the same.


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## hyroot (Feb 17, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I've had aquaponic lettuce that was huge, but didn't taste right. I wonder if yours will be the same.


maybe add kelp and molasses to the water just before its done.. Raise the brix levels... It might grow roots or it might not. If it does I'll throw it in soil. That link I posted was kind of vague. So trial and error..


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 17, 2014)

Does anyone here use a Chapin sprayer?


----------



## mrwood (Feb 17, 2014)

I got the Chapin 20000 1-Gallon sprayer ($10 Amazon)
nice sprayer for $10. I used it for folliar, but mainly when making bubble hash.


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## NickNasty (Feb 18, 2014)

I got the Chapin 3-1/2 gal 1949. It works great, best sprayer I have ever used and I doubt I will ever need another. Rrog put up a link when it was on sale and I snatched it up for $60.00


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 18, 2014)

NickNasty said:


> I got the Chapin 3-1/2 gal 1949. It works great, best sprayer I have ever used and I doubt I will ever need another. Rrog put up a link when it was on sale and I snatched it up for $60.00


Lucky you. I remember missing that sale. Did you make any modifications to nozzle? PS we missed ya slacker.


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## NickNasty (Feb 18, 2014)

I use the fan type nozzle that it came with. I plan to get more types but truthfully I don't need any others.


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 18, 2014)

hyroot said:


> That regrowing lettuce thing totally works.. 2 days sitting in water(the crown part) 2 inches of new leaf growth and no roots .. I'll post a pic. Sometime when I turn on my PC. on the windows phone that can't upload pics...


Nice, u can also do this with a pineapple, takes forever tho

http://m.wikihow.com/Grow-a-Pineapple


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 18, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Nice, u can also do this with a pineapple, takes forever tho
> 
> http://m.wikihow.com/Grow-a-Pineapple


Bet ya John Wayne Bobitt wished his pineapple grew back after Loraina got a hold of it.

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 19, 2014)

NickNasty said:


> I use the fan type nozzle that it came with. I plan to get more types but truthfully I don't need any others.


I read about some nozzles not being good for hyphae. I'm going to dig up the modification I read about.


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## SpicySativa (Feb 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> That regrowing lettuce thing totally works.. 2 days sitting in water(the crown part) 2 inches of new leaf growth and no roots .. I'll post a pic. Sometime when I turn on my PC. on the windows phone that can't upload pics...


Interesting stuff. The other day I found a single Brussels sprout in one of my worm bins that had sprouted a healthy set of roots. It looked like a little micro-sized head of cabbage. When I harvest my Brussels sprouts in month or so I think I'm gonna set a couple sprouts aside for some experimenting. I wonder if it will grow into a proper plant, or just a little mutant sprout? 

This is similar to the method I use for growing onions and garlic.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

SpicySativa said:


> Interesting stuff. The other day I found a single Brussels sprout in one of my worm bins that had sprouted a healthy set of roots. It looked like a little micro-sized head of cabbage. When I harvest my Brussels sprouts in month or so I think I'm gonna set a couple sprouts aside for some experimenting. I wonder if it will grow into a proper plant, or just a little mutant sprout?
> 
> This is similar to the method I use for growing onions and garlic.


So far I've had two seedlings sprout in my bin! Leggy one didn't make it and second one is in my losing solo cup  

Anywho, after several 'axings'...I can't tell a difference between my coco and peat mixes. I guess the coco really isn't worth the effort in LOS, or a six month R&D to get it right  It's all about the worm poo eh.


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## Thedillestpickle (Feb 20, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> So far I've had two seedlings sprout in my bin! Leggy one didn't make it and second one is in my losing solo cup
> 
> Anywho, after several 'axings'...I can't tell a difference between my coco and peat mixes. I guess the coco really isn't worth the effort in LOS, or a six month R&D to get it right  It's all about the worm poo eh.



While you sound disappointed that the coco and peat and turning out to pretty much the same things in performance, that is reassuring for me, as I plan to use cocobricks for portability in Guerilla growing, but I was a bit worried about unpredictabity. Did you have any fear of Magnesium deficiency with coco? I'm thinking the standard 1 cup dolomite per cubic foot that is generally applied to regular peat base mixes, ought to be enough for coco as well, or should that quantity be altered for coco?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

I'm just disappointed in all the trial and error, to get identical (cheaper) results. I put crushed up dolo (crush with mask :O) in my worm bin. I think just a tsp. a gallon is okay, but you really don't need it. You just need to amend soil with enough Ca. Here's a simple lime recipe from Coot:

The problem with Dolomite Lime (specifically) is manifested on several levels - not the least of which is the time required for this mineral compound to degrade which has to happen for the Calcium (Ca) to become available for CE (cation exchange). Then there's the issue with the ratio of Magnesium (Mg) to Calcium (Ca) - it's completely out of whack, i.e. the Mg levels are way too high.

Here's a mix you can put together at Home Depot for chump-change: Lily Miller Super Sweet (Limestone - Calcium Carbonate) and Gypsum and you want to buy the Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) in the garden department and NOT in the home repair department - two different forms of Gypsum.

Here's the recipe:

2x Limestone
1x Gypsum

Mix thoroughly and apply at the same rate you do/did with Dolomite Lime. Now you have elemental Calcium (Ca), Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3) and Sulfur which will partially be converted to Sulfuric Acid which is necessary to deconstruct these mineral compounds making them available to the plant's roots.

Note: You could replace the Limestone with either Oyster Shell Powder (pure Calcium Carbonate) or Agricultural Lime (aka Calcite Lime) which is also a pure form of Calcium Carbonate. But the above recipe will get you the benefits you're looking for in a liming agent.

I also add a cup cal/phos and 1 tbsp epsom/cu ft with coco. You can always make some soft rock phos and/or epsom salt tea or top dress if you see a definciency...which I haven't had yet. Hope this helps.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 20, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> So far I've had two seedlings sprout in my bin! Leggy one didn't make it and second one is in my losing solo cup
> 
> Anywho, after several 'axings'...I can't tell a difference between my coco and peat mixes. I guess the coco really isn't worth the effort in LOS, or a six month R&D to get it right  It's all about the worm poo eh.


I'm real happy with my current mix which includes coco. 1/2 peat 1/2 coco. I don't worry as much about the soil being too acidic, and I think it helps with oxygen to the root zone. I'm gonna keep running with it. I had some issues with a straight peat base.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm real happy with my current mix which includes coco. 1/2 peat 1/2 coco. I don't worry as much about the soil being too acidic, and I think it helps with oxygen to the root zone. I'm gonna keep running with it. I had some issues with a straight peat base.


I really like the coco...it works. I also like the idea of coco and peat! Keep us posted on that one  I did have great aeration and retention with tho coco. I forget to mention a huge plus...NO F'N DRY SPOTS!!! My mix was 42% hydrated coco by volume. 

Another thing I noticed was soggy rice hulls after around 100 days. I'm unfortunately going to have to re-amend. The positives being the Silica when hulls are broken down...plus I get a huge 50# bale for 25$ From local brewery! Wish I could find cheap small lava rock...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

Nick, the nozzle mod is on a forum I got banned from lol. I'm going to try to dig it up somewhere else.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 20, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I really like the coco...it works. I also like the idea of coco and peat! Keep us posted on that one  I did have great aeration and retention with tho coco. I forget to mention a huge plus...NO F'N DRY SPOTS!!! My mix was 42% hydrated coco by volume.
> 
> Another thing I noticed was soggy rice hulls after around 100 days. I'm unfortunately going to have to re-amend. The positives being the Silica when hulls are broken down...plus I get a huge 50# bale for 25$ From local brewery! Wish I could find cheap small lava rock...


Yeah, if you're planning a no-till then I think you need something in addition to the rice hulls. I like pumice but I can't find it around here for the life of me.


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## hyroot (Feb 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yeah, if you're planning a no-till then I think you need something in addition to the rice hulls. I like pumice but I can't find it around here for the life of me.


Same here. I ended up grabbing 4 cubic feet of perlite from a landscaping shop, $16. I have to go to walmart and grab another tarp.. I have to dump it and sort out the chunks from the powder. Rinse method didn't do to well..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yeah, if you're planning a no-till then I think you need something in addition to the rice hulls. I like pumice but I can't find it around here for the life of me.


That's the only reason I liked Roots 707. It was the only pumice I could get...small light pumice too! Lava rock is amazing, but too much exercise and makes pots heavy. Biochar is my fav (extremely porous) But you can only go 5/10%.


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## SpicySativa (Feb 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Same here. I ended up grabbing 4 cubic feet of perlite from a landscaping shop, $16. I have to go to walmart and grab another tarp.. I have to dump it and sort out the chunks from the powder. Rinse method didn't do to well..


Perlite dust (crystalline silica) is VERY VERY VERY VERY bad for your lungs. I hope you've got a good dust mask for that nasty job. Google "silicosis" if you're curious. Nasty shit, perlite is. I still use some, but always handle it very carefully while it's dry.


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## hyroot (Feb 20, 2014)

SpicySativa said:


> Perlite dust (crystalline silica) is VERY VERY VERY VERY bad for your lungs. I hope you've got a good dust mask for that nasty job. Google "silicosis" if you're curious. Nasty shit, perlite is. I still use some, but always handle it very carefully while it's dry.


I tie a t-shirt around my face like a ghetto ninja . I usually wear a painters mask. I don't have any right now.. Would some of it be good for silica in the soil.?. It seems to create pro longed gnarly wet spots in soil from what I have seen.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

SpicySativa said:


> Perlite dust (crystalline silica) is VERY VERY VERY VERY bad for your lungs. I hope you've got a good dust mask for that nasty job. Google "silicosis" if you're curious. Nasty shit, perlite is. I still use some, but always handle it very carefully while it's dry.


Another reason I despise perlite! I'll go DWC, before I use that floating shite! UGH!!! I digress...has anyone used coco chips? I'm really tempted to try a quarter biochar on some freebies.


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 20, 2014)

To top what spicy has said. Perlite never breaks down. Therefore it can't be recycled. I like pumice/lava rock because overtime it breaks down releases minerals into the soil


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## hyroot (Feb 20, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Another reason I despise perlite! I'll go DWC, before I use that floating shite! UGH!!! I digress...has anyone used coco chips? I'm really tempted to try a quarter biochar on some freebies.


you said you like roots 707. that has quite a bit of perlite in it




snowboarder396 said:


> To top what spicy has said. Perlite never breaks down. Therefore it can't be recycled. I like pumice/lava rock because overtime it breaks down releases minerals into the soil


white pumice bbreaks down but lava rock pumice does not. originates from the same place as perlite... volcanoes


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## SpicySativa (Feb 20, 2014)

Perlite isn't a significant source of silica for our plants. In it's crystalline form like that it's a lot like glass; VERY slow to break down.

While it doesn't break down chemically, it DOES break down physically. It's so fragile it kindof crumbles to dust eventually in a mix that gets reused/recycled repeatedly. Then you just have to add more. I recall a study that found it's actually more effective than pumice from a plant-health perspective, but it sure has it's drawbacks... Not sure where I found that study. I'll look around later if I have a minute to spare... I'm STILL trimming XJ. It's the trim that never ends...


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## SpicySativa (Feb 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> you said you like roots 707. that has quite a bit of perlite in it
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perlite actually "originates" in a factory. It's essentially "popped" glass. Like you would pop a corn kernel or a grain of rice for a rice cake.


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## hyroot (Feb 20, 2014)

SpicySativa said:


> Perlite actually "originates" in a factory. It's essentially "popped" glass. Like you would pop a corn kernel or a grain of rice for a rice cake.


it "originates" from volcanoes. its volcanic glass thats then taken to a factory and heated at 1600 degrees. Then it expands to 20 times its size. becoming more porous


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

Roots has coco and pumice to make up for the perlshite. I over watered in 1/3 perlite in coco due to those little floaters. I've never tried the large perlite...maybe bigger poo doesn't float as much


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 20, 2014)

Hyroot, pumice is made from volcanic rock. It does break down. Volcanic rock nay take longer to break down due to size. But it will break down just like most all rocks. Perlite is pumice that has been heat treated to over 1800 degrees f. At that point it pops like popcorn. While Perlite can be harmful if inhaled so can most organic compounds. Volcanic rock and pumice over time release trace minerals into the soil such as rock dust. Wa state has lots volcanic rock/soil and it is very good agricultural wise


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> Hyroot, pumice is made from volcanic rock. It does break down. Volcanic rock nay take longer to break down due to size. But it will break down just like most all rocks. Perlite is pumice that has been heat treated to over 1800 degrees f. At that point it pops like popcorn. While Perlite can be harmful if inhaled so can most organic compounds. Volcanic rock and pumice over time release trace minerals into the soil such as rock dust. Wa state has lots volcanic rock/soil and it is very good agricultural wise


What do you use as drainage? Nobody's used coco chips?


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 20, 2014)

Redcarpet, I use pumice for drainage. Depending on what I'm using it for I add anywhere from 10-20% or 1/3 of my soil mix. Im not saying Perlite is bad if you wanna use it use it. But you DeF. Should wear a mask as inhaling it is horrible for you. But again working with many organic materials you should wear a mask while mixing. Inhaling anytime of blood meal, guanos, composts, etc. Can over time have adverse effects. Hell fungi can grow straight through your fingernails when working with it. If adding your spent soil to compost or an outdoor garden I have found it more preferable to not have Perlite.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> Redcarpet, I use pumice for drainage. Depending on what I'm using it for I add anywhere from 10-20% or 1/3 of my soil mix. Im not saying Perlite is bad if you wanna use it use it. But you DeF. Should wear a mask as inhaling it is horrible for you. But again working with many organic materials you should wear a mask while mixing. Inhaling anytime of blood meal, guanos, composts, etc. Can over time have adverse effects. Hell fungi can grow straight through your fingernails when working with it. If adding your spent soil to compost or an outdoor garden I have found it more preferable to not have Perlite.


Think ya got the wrong guy. I'm not a fan of perlshite, and agree on the mask. I also have fungi spores that're horrible when inhaled. 

I have two finished worm bins that need harvested...not in the mood at all. Think I'll makes mounds on tarp with light, but this time with a small trail going down middle with new bedding and food.


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 20, 2014)

Redcarpet the first part was for you lol you asked what I irs for drainage. The rest was just me rambling on from before, thanks for reminding me to I keep forgetting I need to setup another worm bin.


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## hyroot (Feb 20, 2014)

I usually wear a painters mask.. I always wear gloves


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 20, 2014)

Think I'm going to wear a bird costume and scare the worms into their new home.


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 20, 2014)

Lol that'd be funny to watch


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 20, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Think I'm going to wear a bird costume and scare the worms into their new home.


What do you mean wear a costume to scar them, hell the mice already run from you naturally!



Say I am working on a new blend using small pieces of pumice, oysters shells pieces and rice hulls. 
The Rev even uses dry rice thinking about that too. 

I still have some perlite in 5 gallon box but I use it sparingly as I am using the other materials. 

And as radical as this sounds I was going to add a material into the mix that is sterile PH neutral very absorbent and used in hydroponics but also recommend as a soil amendment. Sure to Grow Absorbents. 

As weird as it will be mixing this into soil it won't hurt it, if it helps aerate and provide drainage why not?






DankSwag


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## starcraftguy1988 (Feb 21, 2014)

hey guys, just made my second organic full term soil. Right now i got it in a 30 gallon tote sitting in the grow room, which is 81-86 Degrees F. lights on, 66-72 lights off. So im prettty sure its warm enough to get all the microbes and benef's active, im just curious can i cover the tote, is it recommended? id like to do so to keep humidity down if at all possible. And its too cold outside for the soil to "cook" properly/quickly out there.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

starcraftguy1988 said:


> hey guys, just made my second organic full term soil. Right now i got it in a 30 gallon tote sitting in the grow room, which is 81-86 Degrees F. lights on, 66-72 lights off. So im prettty sure its warm enough to get all the microbes and benef's active, im just curious can i cover the tote, is it recommended? id like to do so to keep humidity down if at all possible. And its too cold outside for the soil to "cook" properly/quickly out there.


I have some airholes in my bins. I guess you can burp it. Congrats on your organic endeavor!


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 21, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> What do you mean wear a costume to scar them, hell the mice already run from you naturally!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interested, please do tell us more about this, espexially for hydroponics


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## Herb Man (Feb 21, 2014)

Hey guys, regarding the No Till aspect of this thread, the info seems kinda sparse in the first few pages, so I'm none the wiser regarding the details.

Is the suggestion that one simply top dresses, then plugs a seed in the old soil with the chopped plants root still in the soil?

I re-use organic soil, but I compost it for a month or two before re-using.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 21, 2014)

Herb Man said:


> Hey guys, regarding the No Till aspect of this thread, the info seems kinda sparse in the first few pages, so I'm none the wiser regarding the details.
> 
> Is the suggestion that one simply top dresses, then plugs a seed in the old soil with the chopped plants root still in the soil?
> 
> I re-use organic soil, but I compost it for a month or two before re-using.


Chop your current plant at the base of the stem. Re-amend (top dress) with whatever dry organic inputs you use at about 50% of what you initially used to make the soil. No need to add minerals, rock dusts, and liming agents for a second run. Cover with a layer of EWC, and then plant a cover crop like clover in to the bucket which will fix atmospheric nitrogen and keep the micro-life active sending down new roots. Water as needed, and in a few weeks the old rootball will be somewhat consumed and you can plunk a new clone right in there. Just chop-n-drop the clover which will make a nice layer of mulch.


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## mrwood (Feb 21, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Chop your current plant at the base of the stem. Re-amend (top dress) with whatever dry organic inputs you use at about 50% of what you initially used to make the soil. No need to add minerals, rock dusts, and liming agents for a second run. Cover with a layer of EWC, and then plant a cover crop like clover in to the bucket which will fix atmospheric nitrogen and keep the micro-life active sending down new roots. Water as needed, and in a few weeks the old rootball will be somewhat consumed and you can plunk a new clone right in there. Just chop-n-drop the clover which will make a nice layer of mulch.


plus, there appears to be a consensus that you need a > 15 gal pot for no till
I run smaller pots, but recycle my soil for future grows. A majority of the guidance on this thread still works for us little guys !


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## Herb Man (Feb 21, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Chop your current plant at the base of the stem. Re-amend (top dress) with whatever dry organic inputs you use at about 50% of what you initially used to make the soil. No need to add minerals, rock dusts, and liming agents for a second run. Cover with a layer of EWC, and then plant a cover crop like clover in to the bucket which will fix atmospheric nitrogen and keep the micro-life active sending down new roots. Water as needed, and in a few weeks the old rootball will be somewhat consumed and you can plunk a new clone right in there. Just chop-n-drop the clover which will make a nice layer of mulch.


Damn, so simple.

My current method is to dump the used soil into my indoor soil compost (in a large grow bag in my growing area). It stays there for at least a month more commonly two. 

Just found a live worm in some earth worm castings, so I tossed that in there too, will be interesting to see how that works out. 

But this no till method seems very user friendly.




mrwood said:


> plus, there appears to be a consensus that you need a > 15 gal pot for no till
> I run smaller pots, but recycle my soil for future grows. A majority of the guidance on this thread still works for us little guys !


Ah, my current arrangement would not cater for such large pots, but yes this is still good info for organic farmers.


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## hyroot (Feb 21, 2014)

day 6 reveg romaine lettuce. no roots. sitting in ttap water


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

hyroot said:


> day 6 reveg romaine lettuce. no roots. sitting in ttap water


Kewl...but it's going to taste like Micky D lettuce at 11pm.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

@Mr. Wood, you seem uncomfortable with going big... IMO there's nothing 'horribly wrong' (just not as finely aged) with remixing and reamending soil with smaller 3-5 gal pots. There's still tons of microbes on the left over roots. I'm going to remix my coco with some hotness and let it cook for 10-14 days. I'll be fine.


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## hyroot (Feb 21, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Kewl...but it's going to taste like Micky D lettuce at 11pm.


we'll see I'll add some molasses once a week. I change the water every day.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 21, 2014)

hyroot said:


> we'll see I'll add some molasses once a week. I change the water every day.


That 's the spirit Hyroot!

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

hyroot said:


> we'll see I'll add some molasses once a week. I change the water every day.


Gonna need more than molasses ...unless you're using Brer Rabbit! I actually love romaine. It'd be interesting to do one in just water for comparison. I've been doing my cuttings the same exact way as your lettuce. Foil and clean tap changed daily. You using straight tap???


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## hyroot (Feb 21, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Gonna need more than molasses ...unless you're using Brer Rabbit! I actually love romaine. It'd be interesting to do one in just water for comparison. I've been doing my cuttings the same exact way as your lettuce. Foil and clean tap changed daily. You using straight tap???


yeah straigt tap. once I used aerated tap water. I use brer rabbit $2.50 a bottle at walmizzle. that will raise brix levels too.. One of my friends said he tried it and it he said the head was smaller than soil. it takes 60+ days from sprout to finish. He doesn't get jiggy like I do with my plants. At the rate of the regrowth is going, its growing faster than seed. So if its a small head and finished in 3 or 4 weeks. who cares with that much time vs 60 days.. I'm not flipping the lettuce or smoking it so..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

Funny you mentioned aeration. Stupid minds think alike eh. I have 2 cuttings from 5 diff moms. One cutting of each mom in aerated tap and the other just sitting. So far the still water is winning?!?!


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## hyroot (Feb 21, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Funny you mentioned aeration. Stupid minds think alike eh. I have 2 cuttings from 5 diff moms. One cutting of each mom in aerated tap and the other just sitting. So far the still water is winning?!?!


chlorine promotes root growth. It kills microbes. Its a catch 22.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

hyroot said:


> chlorine promotes root growth. It kills microbes. Its a catch 22.


Learn something new errday. That would explain the faster rooting in sitting water.


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 21, 2014)

Never heard of chlorine promoting root growth, that's interesting


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> Never heard of chlorine promoting root growth, that's interesting


I haven't looked it up yet...wonder about chloramine too.


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 21, 2014)

Yup first for me too..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 21, 2014)

Done trimming yet ff? Slacker as slacker


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 21, 2014)

Haha funny u ask, 
no im not, i had a total of 7 plants ready but bcuz of my busy schedule and no help, ive been cutting a plant every other day for the last week ir two, finish one plant by myself in a day or so, doesnt help that my pruners are all clumped and sticky as fuck.

As u can see thats one plant about quarters way trimmed, been hanging about 4 days, still havent finished, still have a couple more plants to go.








On a brighter note, heres a sneak peak on my new upcoming grow with the sg190 
yup thats 30 gallons of living soil!







sorry bad quality pics


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## hyroot (Feb 21, 2014)

Take a good knife or razor blade and scrape off scissor hash then smoke it.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 21, 2014)

Looking good there FF, feeling good Dank!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 21, 2014)

Here are my 4 Blue Cheese Ladies 21 days in, the 1 gallon ROLS pots they are in each I did not have the time to replenish N with a cover crop. However I did add myco fungi during transplant that has some organic fertilizer in it as well. Initially I ran into issues vegging where I had to add some alfalfa tea which I followed up with some cal/mag and top dressed with Oly Fish Compost. Now these 4 ladies are in flower in their ROLS and I have only added my own EWC as top dress. 


















DankSwag'n it!


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 21, 2014)

What kind of light u got there DANKSWAG?


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 21, 2014)

while looking up the differences in peat vs coco coir for soil mixes i came across something interesting for a scholarly article about using almond shells instead of rockwool and etc. thought i would share with you guys see what you thought.

this is the abstract..

This industrial residue is the woody endocarp of the almond fruits. This material is normally incinerated or dumped without control. Almond shell used (100% pure) as growing media can be more ecologically-friendly and less expensive than traditional rockwool since it can be locally produced. Three commercially produced random samples of two different textures and two volumes (19 and 25 L) were evaluated as growing media for soilless production. Three experiments were conducted to evaluate the effects of volume and texture and to compare this substrate with rockwool in terms of yield and quality characteristics of fruits in melon and tomato culture. The physical, physico-chemical and chemical properties studied did not differ significantly between both textures. Tomato plants grown in almond shell residue used 21% less water compared to rockwool over the course of production. We found non-limiting in comparison to rockwool for melon and tomato crops in relation to fertigation parameters, water uptake and yield. Significant differences of yield were found when we used the big size, specially in melon crop where commercial yield and soluble solids of plants growing on 25 L bags was higher than that on small one. The results suggested that almond shells seem to be an acceptable growing media as rockwool substitute for soilless vegetable production.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 21, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> What kind of light u got there DANKSWAG?


I'm running the 450 BLOOM LED
however the light the pics under are CFL 2700K.

DankSwag


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2014)

mrwood said:


> plus, there appears to be a consensus that you need a > 15 gal pot for no till
> I run smaller pots, but recycle my soil for future grows. A majority of the guidance on this thread still works for us little guys !


I have done no-till in 7 gallon containers and it worked out well. The current consensus seems to be 5 gallon and larger per Coot et al


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2014)

hyroot said:


> chlorine promotes root growth. It kills microbes. Its a catch 22.


You sure about that? Chlorine interferes with phosphorus uptake .... and I was always under the impression that phosphorus was essential for new root growth. I'm gonna research this because that would be great if I could just use untreated tap water to root new cuttings.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 22, 2014)

Stow, usually I disagree with Arlo...I mean hyroot  BUT my straight tap cuttings are beating my aerated sisters every time. I'll take a tally on all 20 (10 of each when I'm done) Oh I forgot to mention the rice hulls do breakdown well in bins. That's some great Silica and my castings are so black n fluffy. I didn't feed them for over a month before harvesting...they won't even look at me anymore. 

Hy, you ain't kidding about the kief and finger rub!!! I put some off to the side for a dry and press experiment. Wonder if trichs will bind and press like with the ice wash.


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## forever young (Feb 22, 2014)

Are you ever concerned about ph of your runoff? I just checked my runoff ph and it was 8.7 my soil is composed of:
1 cup Alfalfa Meal 
1cup green sand 
1 cup crab shells
1 cup Espoma tomato tone
1bag organic chicken crap and veg compost 15lbs
2 5 gal bucket promix
1cup pelleted lime
1 cup kelp 2 tblsp epsom 
4 cups azomite 
1 5 gal bucket perlite
I added 1 tsp mycorrhizae with molasses in 1 gal containers with RO water (ph 6. until all was moist. Let it cook for 3 weeks.

Now my concern is I have plants in 1 gal smart pots and the runoff ph is 8.7, but soil ph is 5.2 I am making a tea with runoff with alfalfa meal, mycorrhizae and molasses. should i be concerned about ph levels? Many people have told me to throw my ph testers out the window.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 22, 2014)

Interesting find snow! Coco and peat both have their pros/cons. Why not combine them like stow's trying and get the best of both worlds! I wanted less drainage material, so I went with coco and no peat. It worked well with good humus. Peat is much cheaper for me tho, and it works well when prehydrated. It seems like my coco will take on a similar texture to peat after breaking down. I've heard of people mentioning it before, but my coco castings are very fluffy!


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 22, 2014)

forever young said:


> Are you ever concerned about ph of your runoff? I just checked my runoff ph and it was 8.7 my soil is composed of:
> 1 cup Alfalfa Meal
> 1cup green sand
> 1 cup crab shells
> ...


He another forever.

So first thing that comes in mind is, how or with what are you reading your soil ph? 

Your run off ph isnt stable, so this is not a way of testing your soil ph. 

If your plants seem happy then dont stress it. Keep the soil alive, enzymes fungi microbes thats what your really growing, the plant grows itself


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Stow, usually I disagree with Arlo...I mean hyroot  BUT my straight tap cuttings are beating my aerated sisters every time. I'll take a tally on all 20 (10 of each when I'm done) Oh I forgot to mention the rice hulls do breakdown well in bins. That's some great Silica and my castings are so black n fluffy. I didn't feed them for over a month before harvesting...they won't even look at me anymore.
> 
> Hy, you ain't kidding about the kief and finger rub!!! I put some off to the side for a dry and press experiment. Wonder if trichs will bind and press like with the ice wash.


Gonna look in to the chlorine thingy more. Please update us on your cuttings. I love using coco coir for bedding in my worm bins. The worms seem to dig it too. Currently I am using mostly coco coir, a handful of used soil, a handful of rice hulls, and a handful of shredded cardboard.



forever young said:


> Are you ever concerned about ph of your runoff? I just checked my runoff ph and it was 8.7 my soil is composed of:
> 1 cup Alfalfa Meal
> 1cup green sand
> 1 cup crab shells
> ...


I wouldn't worry too much about PH. If you're using a quality source of compost at about 25%-33% of your base then that should buffer your PH just fine. Make sure you are inoculating the soil well and allowing it to sit for 4+ weeks before using. You really don't want to be having runoff when you water. You are essentially flushing your medium of organic amendments and/or microbes by doing this. Saturate the soil, then walk away. Add more water 5-10 minutes later trying to avoid run off. If you're concerned that the PH is too high, you can add more peat to your mix as it is quite acidic.



RedCarpetMatches said:


> Interesting find snow! Coco and peat both have their pros/cons. Why not combine them like stow's trying and get the best of both worlds! I wanted less drainage material, so I went with coco and no peat. It worked well with good humus. Peat is much cheaper for me tho, and it works well when prehydrated. It seems like my coco will take on a similar texture to peat after breaking down. I've heard of people mentioning it before, but my coco castings are very fluffy!


I'm loving the peat/coco combo. VERY happy ladies in this mix.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 22, 2014)

I'm glad you like the coco stow...I just made a rhyme. You put any biochar in your mix? I want to char some rice hulls here soon!


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2014)

I used bio char on my last batch of soil, but not the current one I made. PITA to make. Trying to simplify things a bit


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I used bio char on my last batch of soil, but not the current one I made. PITA to make. Trying to simplify things a bit


I just put a bunch of sticks in my chimney starter on the Weber. Had the vents mostly closed for about an hour. Wasn't too bad...made a scene tho lol. I seen KIS sells a pound for just $2.50. Guy told me it's not inoculated and very fine n fluffy. I did a little digging, and their source is legit.


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## forever young (Feb 22, 2014)

They don't seem happy the first two are ak47 and the five are bubblelicious and this all started happening within the last week. The AKs are 5 weeks old and bubble 4 weeks They were under veg CFL T5 until this week and I put under 600W MH with a new HI Lox gro bulb, I also moved them into new organic soil mix this week and into 1 gal smart pots.


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## forever young (Feb 22, 2014)

This is my first time growing my brother has Multible Myloma so I'm trying to keep him eating and happy. I'm feeling kinda like this is going in the wrong direction and I want to turn it around. I was using a KelWay soil tester and eco tester PH2 pen for runoff and water tester and yes those are exhale bags and I feel stupid for buying them, live and learn


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## forever young (Feb 22, 2014)

The compost I used was Charlies organic chicken compost, bought it at Hydro store. I have worm bins now and have located a worm farmer so next batch should be better.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I'm glad you like the coco stow...I just made a rhyme. You put any biochar in your mix? I want to char some rice hulls here soon!


Yo GingerRugPair,

I have biochar and rice hulls, whatcha mean char some rice hulls? 

DankSwag


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## NickNasty (Feb 22, 2014)

forever young said:


> They don't seem happy the first two are ak47 and the five are bubblelicious and this all started happening within the last week. The AKs are 5 weeks old and bubble 4 weeks They were under veg CFL T5 until this week and I put under 600W MH with a new HI Lox gro bulb, I also moved them into new organic soil mix this week and into 1 gal smart pots.


The most likely reason in my opinion your plants don't seem happy is you did not give the soil long enough to cook.


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## forever young (Feb 22, 2014)

Do you think I should get them out of that and put them in maybe a fox farm product and allow my soil to cook longer? Thanks for responding duh thats what Im going to do. Off to hydro store


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 22, 2014)

forever young said:


> Do you think I should get them out of that and put them in maybe a fox farm product and allow my soil to cook longer? Thanks for responding duh thats what Im going to do. Off to hydro store


You could flush with 3 gal water (3x the volume of pot) or transplant. I wouldn't buy FF. You could cut your current mix with peat, coco, drainage mat'l, etc. They'll be fine.


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## Mohican (Feb 22, 2014)

I just made charcoal out of my Malawi leaves and branches.

I was out checking on the Mulanje #2 reveg and I got a surprise. A small plant is growing about 5 feet away from her!






I put some pieces of wood around it so I could find it and not step on it!







Here is some of the new growth on the Mulanje #2 reveg:








Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 22, 2014)

Mo know best.

Sorry STANK, missed your question. I really hope that nickname doesn't stick lol. You can make biochar out of rice hulls...even more surface area! There's tons of biochar vids out there. It's very interesting how porous the stuff is. Think 1 tsp has as much surface area as a football field, or something like that. I love me some porous. Ph buffer, aeration, doesn't break down, amazing CEC capabilities, prob missing other things. It's a must in my book.


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## Mohican (Feb 22, 2014)

How do you make it?


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## Mohican (Feb 22, 2014)

Thanks for the rep RCM!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 22, 2014)

Mohican said:


> How do you make it?


I haven't tried with rice hulls yet. I made my first batch with my chimney starter in my Weber. Crushed it up and added an alfalfa tea. The first attempt I let the chunks of wood go too long and hot. Second time I got lucky with an hour with no oxygen (vents barely cracked) I've seen vids with people using pits and chimney looking things...forget the proper name. I remember Rrog planning on a big set up...


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 22, 2014)

forever young said:


> View attachment 3002585View attachment 3002583View attachment 3002587View attachment 3002589
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey brother, 
i see you are starting off in small pots, this is good,
what i would do is water with aloe and coco and nothing but enzymes teas for the next couple week, meanwhile, ur batch of soil needs to be cut with more compost and more worm shit, let it cook for another month, then transplant into a much bigger container. If done properly and on time, everything should work out well, and should be able to flower in less then 2 monthss


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 22, 2014)

Mo,

I imagine the same process here, [video=youtube;plJ34fekM2E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=plJ34fekM2E&amp;feature=c4-overview-vl&amp;list=PLApXYvbprElwrArh0ffNKWU4pFdRSSjH4[/video]

However replace wood with rice hulls? 
DankSwag


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 22, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Hey brother,
> i see you are starting off in small pots, this is good,
> what i would do is water with aloe and coco and nothing but enzymes teas for the next couple week, meanwhile, ur batch of soil needs to be cut with more compost and more worm shit, let it cook for another month, then transplant into a much bigger container. If done properly and on time, everything should work out well, and should be able to flower in less then 2 monthss


considering worm shit and compost is already broken down i dont think it need to be "cooked". Unless im missing something about original soil makeup.


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 22, 2014)

Mo, that little surprise looks a little chewed on by pests lol. You seem to have the compost piles down, you have stuff sprouting all over with them! good job keep it up!


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 22, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> considering worm shit and compost is already broken down i dont think it need to be "cooked". Unless im missing something about original soil makeup.


I probley didnt make it clear, 

His soil needs to be cut with compost and or worm casting, that batch needs to be cooked for a month,
if not it he will run into the same problems hes having now


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 23, 2014)

Gotcha , lol I guess should of gone back few pages to his original problem. My bad foreverflyhi, thought you were saying that it needed to be cooked just because of the compost and ewc


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 23, 2014)

DANK aka Dabby Doo, there's a bunch of rice hull biochar vids also.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 23, 2014)

forever young said:


> View attachment 3002585View attachment 3002583View attachment 3002587View attachment 3002589
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just gonna take advice and run eh  where's the update. Help us help you.


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## Tjingles (Feb 23, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Here is my pest prevention lined up which I rotate the different oils:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey. I just picked up a bag of the navitas powdered coconut water. Do you use the recommended usage of 1 tbsp to a glass. Theu don't sa what size glass though. How do you use it?


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 23, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> DANK aka Dabby Doo, there's a bunch of rice hull biochar vids also.


Yo carpet muncher...

I think I found one... 
[video=youtube;VerTekILA5c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VerTekILA5c[/video]

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 23, 2014)

Awesome DANK! Now go steal my idea again  I'm also going to do pine needles


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 23, 2014)

Tjingles said:


> Hey. I just picked up a bag of the navitas powdered coconut water. Do you use the recommended usage of 1 tbsp to a glass. Theu don't sa what size glass though. How do you use it?


A glass is 8 ounces. I think you take that and dilute 1:15 with water. I also think it's cheaper to use an SST (version 2) for enzymes. I think you can I think you can.


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## Mohican (Feb 23, 2014)

Thanks DS! Those vids are great!


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## hyroot (Feb 23, 2014)

Reveg romaine lettuce day 8

adding molasses to the water made the leaves turn quite a bit darker . The lower part, the crown was browning and its now green.


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## Someacdude (Feb 23, 2014)

Very nice thread, i just pulled my first crop using amended soil and it was great. 
The co-op asked me what it would take for me to sell only to them, i made it easy,,,,buy everything ive got.


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## forever young (Feb 24, 2014)

Thanks I will do that, I appreciate your response, and this lady is happy for all the help


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## forever young (Feb 24, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Just gonna take advice and run eh  where's the update. Help us help you.


Ok, I repotted with Ocean floor so my soil can cook longer. Drove to worm farmers and bought 5 30lb bags of fresh worm poo and add 2 bags into my already made mix and I added a bag of coco, I put all of what I had which filled a 65 gal container and remixed it on a tarp and moistened it with coconut water and aloe. I moistened my ocean floor in pots with a barley tea that I made from distillers barley and water heated to 155 degrees and oxygenated for 24hours with mycorrhizae. I did not overwater just put 12 oz in each one gal pot, I plan on not watering for a few days and then using RO water with aloe added. I used barley because of the curling leaves on top of the plant. I used an organic compost already cooked composed of chicken poo and vegetative material so the fresh worm poo was a critical missing component. I also took plants off MH lights and have them under veg cfl for now until they are stronger


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## GreenSanta (Feb 24, 2014)

one of the best speech about Biochar that I have seen.

[video=youtube;SWbomZJn83U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWbomZJn83U[/video]


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## GreenSanta (Feb 24, 2014)

However,
[video=youtube;kX7vMAC2cSQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kX7vMAC2cSQ[/video]]

I tend to believe Biochar is great and I can't wait to make my own, anyway what are your guys thoughts ?


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## Tjingles (Feb 24, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> A glass is 8 ounces. I think you take that and dilute 1:15 with water. I also think it's cheaper to use an SST (version 2) for enzymes. I think you can I think you can.


Thanks for the ratios. And it's funny you say that because I have my coco/ water soaked barley and alfalfa seeds bubbling rite now for Wednesdays watering. Which Leeds me to another question. If I brewed a worm casting tea and added the SS brew and mashed up seeds would the WC take away affectiveness of the SS enzymes?


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 24, 2014)

Greensanta, Biochar is good, you just have to make sure not to overdo it. Look at areas where there have been fires. it does help. especially when mixed into the soil itself. Now another scenario being volcanic activity after blowing up and ash covering everything. That would be bad as even just a thin layer could inhibit growth. I wont go into more detail about that part if you would like to know more why do more research on pyroclastic flow. Anyways biochar=good just as long as its not overdone. but it does help lower acidity, so if ever trying to lower acidity instead of using lime you could use it to help. 

Good video post btw. interesting stuff on the carbon sequestration.


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## hyroot (Feb 24, 2014)

Too add. If you use any native soil or grow outside. There's more than likely already biochar in the ground. From fires, volacanoes all the steam engine vehicles before gas power , etc...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 25, 2014)

You'd have to live in the Amazon to find 'Terra Preta' or 'dark earth'. We won't have it unless we make it, which isn't that bad. It raises and stabilizes PH in acidic soils. Soft wood materials give you a lower PH char than hard wood. Lesser char time is also less alkaline. Please correct me if I'm wrong, as this info is from some old notes.


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## iforgotmymeds (Feb 25, 2014)

Hello All, This BioChar sounds interesting. I have a silly question, I did a separate compost last year from my normal one. The difference is I was curious if the ash from my charcoal/wood grill would hurt or help my grow. I thought I was wasting the potential of the ash by throwing it in the trash. Has anyone tried this or have any input? It would be great thanks.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 25, 2014)

iforgotmymeds said:


> Hello All, This BioChar sounds interesting. I have a silly question, I did a separate compost last year from my normal one. The difference is I was curious if the ash from my charcoal/wood grill would hurt or help my grow. I thought I was wasting the potential of the ash by throwing it in the trash. Has anyone tried this or have any input? It would be great thanks.


If you have been using charred wood in your grill then that would be fine. If you're using charcoal (ie Kingsford) I would not use it. A lot of charcoal contains Borox, which is potentially toxic to plants.


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## hyroot (Feb 25, 2014)

its funny. living organics keeps driving up the work load... its supposed to lighten the work load


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 25, 2014)

Stow, did Rrog ever get those drums going?


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 26, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Stow, did Rrog ever get those drums going?


He's in the process of moving ..... so he will be making biochar this spring when he gets settled in to his new house.


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## GreenSanta (Feb 26, 2014)

I have a question regarding bio roots stimulant, I was looking at the ingredients on the bottle of general organic (general hydroponic) and the second ingredient was brewer's yeast. Has anyone here used brewer's yeast to improve the roots of their plants?


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## Mohican (Feb 26, 2014)

Yes - and a few drops of beer are good for seed starting 


Here is the surprise Mulanje compost baby today:







Cheers,
Mo


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## GreenSanta (Feb 26, 2014)

Mohican said:


> ............Yes - and a few drops of beer are good for seed starting
> ...........................
> 
> Cheers,
> Mo



ur kidding right? well I know you are but what do you have to say about yeast for roots though1?


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## hyroot (Feb 26, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> ur kidding right? well I know you are but what do you have to say about yeast for roots though1?


im sure it works. theres yeast in gro kashi and liquid karma. Yeast is full of bacteria.. probably works along the lines as sst with barley seed.


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 26, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> one of the best speech about Biochar that I have seen.
> 
> [video=youtube;SWbomZJn83U]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SWbomZJn83U[/video]


Thanks GreenSanta....

I encourage everyone who has yet to see that video to do so, inspiring! Once you go BioChar you'll realize how better of your plants are!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Feb 26, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> I have a question regarding bio roots stimulant, I was looking at the ingredients on the bottle of general organic (general hydroponic) and the second ingredient was brewer's yeast. Has anyone here used brewer's yeast to improve the roots of their plants?


You should be able to find at a local brewery. It also comes in brewer's kits. 

DankSwag


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## GreenSanta (Feb 26, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> You should be able to find at a local brewery. It also comes in brewer's kits.
> 
> DankSwag


 For now I am only looking for feedbacks and if people have tried it around here, it can be done with naturally made freshly activated yeast, it would not have to be dried yeast ... i d like to know what kind of ratio I would have to use too.


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## hyroot (Feb 26, 2014)

GreenSanta said:


> For now I am only looking for feedbacks and if people have tried it around here, it can be done with naturally made freshly activated yeast, it would not have to be dried yeast ... i d like to know what kind of ratio I would have to use too.


I don't know if you have a restaurant depot up there. They sell all kinds of yeast in blocks. for beer, pizza, bread , etc....

I want to try bio char but no where to do it..


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## GreenSanta (Feb 26, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I don't know if you have a restaurant depot up there. They sell all kinds of yeast in blocks. for beer, pizza, bread , etc....
> 
> I want to try bio char but no where to do it..


biochar is a summer project for me... but yeah guys I know where to get yeast!!! I know how to make my own natural yeast as well!!! what I want to know is if anyone has seen benefits using brewer's yeast because I saw it on the list of ingredients for a root booster ... I wasnt going to buy the bottle but it got me thinking that it might be something to look into !


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## hyroot (Feb 26, 2014)

I think you could make bmo with it. Mix with castings and let the fungi takes it course.


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## iforgotmymeds (Feb 26, 2014)

I have been using my ash left over from my grill and fire pit to make biochar for my compost, so it can be done year round. I can't wait to do it on a larger scale though. I own almost 100 acres, but there are a lot of other farmers around me and when the summer comes around they do not want to see fires...lol. I like the you tube video I think it will be helpful to a lot of people.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 27, 2014)

iforgotmymeds said:


> I have been using my ash left over from my grill and fire pit to make biochar for my compost, so it can be done year round. I can't wait to do it on a larger scale though. I own almost 100 acres, but there are a lot of other farmers around me and when the summer comes around they do not want to see fires...lol. I like the you tube video I think it will be helpful to a lot of people.


Is the 'ash' very brittle like the char? Ash and char are different.


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 27, 2014)

Red is right, also the ash from tjat type of coal has been treated with chemicals to catch fire easier, however i believe you c an add in compost and it eventually breaks down.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 27, 2014)

Cowboy is a brand of charcoal that you can use for char. HD and Lowes both carry it.


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## Mohican (Feb 27, 2014)

We have mesquite charcoal at our stores that looks to be perfect bio-char! It is a bag full of black tree parts.

I moved some of the compost pile around last weekend and the soil underneath soaks up water like a sponge now!


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## iforgotmymeds (Feb 27, 2014)

Hello guys, not to worry I know the difference between ash and char. And to answer the questions I use wood for my grill and well I did say fire pit for like yard campfires, I don't use charcoal for that..haha. I think someone earlier in this thread said their is borox in charcoal, but I live in the northwest it rains so much that I would not be surprised if it is rinsed out by the next year. Can biochar be bought to add to compost?, if you can't make your own, because I know people who use barrels or small bins to make compost, when they don't have a yard.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 27, 2014)

iforgotmymeds said:


> Hello guys, not to worry I know the difference between ash and char. And to answer the questions I use wood for my grill and well I did say fire pit for like yard campfires, I don't use charcoal for that..haha. I think someone earlier in this thread said their is borox in charcoal, but I live in the northwest it rains so much that I would not be surprised if it is rinsed out by the next year. Can biochar be bought to add to compost?, if you can't make your own, because I know people who use barrels or small bins to make compost, when they don't have a yard.


I like theses peeps http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/kis-biochar. I got a sample recently that was VERY fine...like rice hull fine!!! I'd recommend a mesh to hold the small stuff in. Looks like a great product and for the price I might not make anymore...unless I'm drunk and high and want to play with fire muahahahaha!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 27, 2014)

Mohican said:


> We have mesquite charcoal at our stores that looks to be perfect bio-char! It is a bag full of black tree parts.
> 
> I moved some of the compost pile around last weekend and the soil underneath soaks up water like a sponge now!


You haven't commented on my new avatar...


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## iforgotmymeds (Feb 27, 2014)

Nope, because I have seen larger aquaponic grows...LOL!! J/K nice plant what is it?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 27, 2014)

iforgotmymeds said:


> Nope, because I have seen larger aquaponic grows...LOL!! J/K nice plant what is it?


I dunno, ask Mo.


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## hyroot (Feb 27, 2014)

What about that Mexican charcoal that looks like burnt wood? That sells for $5 a bag at any grocery store. Most people use it for smokers.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 27, 2014)

hyroot said:


> What about that Mexican charcoal that looks like burnt wood? That sells for $5 a bag at any grocery store. Most people use it for smokers.


If it's 100% natural it should work. I just went on a little hike and gathered some small logs. I have a lot of pine trees and want to char the needles.


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## Mohican (Feb 27, 2014)

I just saw it! Love the new avatar!


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## hyroot (Feb 27, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> If it's 100% natural it should work. I just went on a little hike and gathered some small logs. I have a lot of pine trees and want to char the needles.


I wish I had spots to hike near by. Nothing but sand and date palm trees for days. When I was in Mo's hood I went hiking all the time. Spots every where


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 27, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I wish I had spots to hike near by. Nothing but sand and date palm trees for days. When I was in Mo's hood I went hiking all the time. Spots every where


It's probably the only luxury in this crap state. Forrest humus, untainted leaves, and lots of guerrilla spots!


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## tomahawker (Feb 28, 2014)

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I'm planning on switching over to organic and have some questions. I have been using GH nutes and reusing the same soil in raised beds (non-draining) for about 3 years with no problems. The soil I have now is a base of promix hp and I've been adding coco, EWC, GH rare earth silica, dolomite lime, hygrozyme and cal-ox after each harvest. I want to switch over to organic soil and am wondering if it is possible to wash my existing soil to remove salts and any remaining nutes, instead of the hassle and cost of removing a LOT of soil and replacing with a LOT of new soil. I would then add some organic amendments like glacial rock dust, kelp meal, crab meal, and neem meal. Would this work if I removed the dirt and placed it on a screen in a bathtub and then rinsed it very good with hot/boiling water? 

Will the soil be organic if I wash very thoroughly with water, and if the amendments I add are organic? 

Will I have to let it sit for a while after washing and adding the amendments?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 28, 2014)

tomahawker said:


> Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I'm planning on switching over to organic and have some questions. I have been using GH nutes and reusing the same soil in raised beds (non-draining) for about 3 years with no problems. The soil I have now is a base of promix hp and I've been adding coco, EWC, GH rare earth silica, dolomite lime, hygrozyme and cal-ox after each harvest. I want to switch over to organic soil and am wondering if it is possible to wash my existing soil to remove salts and any remaining nutes, instead of the hassle and cost of removing a LOT of soil and replacing with a LOT of new soil. I would then add some organic amendments like glacial rock dust, kelp meal, crab meal, and neem meal. Would this work if I removed the dirt and placed it on a screen in a bathtub and then rinsed it very good with hot water?
> 
> Will the soil be organic if I wash very thoroughly with water (boiling?), and if the amendments I add are organic?
> 
> Will I have to let it sit for a while after washing and adding the amendments?


I was in the same boat awhile back. I dumped about 10 cu ft. out back, and let the weather handle it. It should be great stuff this spring. I went gun ho full living soil, so I seen the mix as contaminated. You could simply flush the hell out of it, squeeze out excess, and then inoculate with EWC, amendments, and a good compost tea to moisten it. Your mix will only be as good as your humus. What do you plan on using for EWC/compost? Do you have a worm bin?


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## tomahawker (Feb 28, 2014)

I have found a local place where I can get red wigglers for $20/pound and good quality black gold worm castings. I was also thinking about ordering some denali gold alaskan humus if necessary.

I just started plans for my own compost and thought I would add quite a few cubic feet of my old soil in the compost bin to get things started.


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 28, 2014)

tomahawker said:


> Sorry if this is the wrong place to post this, but I'm planning on switching over to organic and have some questions. I have been using GH nutes and reusing the same soil in raised beds (non-draining) for about 3 years with no problems. The soil I have now is a base of promix hp and I've been adding coco, EWC, GH rare earth silica, dolomite lime, hygrozyme and cal-ox after each harvest. I want to switch over to organic soil and am wondering if it is possible to wash my existing soil to remove salts and any remaining nutes, instead of the hassle and cost of removing a LOT of soil and replacing with a LOT of new soil. I would then add some organic amendments like glacial rock dust, kelp meal, crab meal, and neem meal. Would this work if I removed the dirt and placed it on a screen in a bathtub and then rinsed it very good with hot/boiling water?
> 
> Will the soil be organic if I wash very thoroughly with water, and if the amendments I add are organic?
> 
> Will I have to let it sit for a while after washing and adding the amendments?


Aact, act , and oyster mushrooms!!!


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 28, 2014)

tomahawker said:


> I have found a local place where I can get red wigglers for $20/pound and good quality black gold worm castings. I was also thinking about ordering some denali gold alaskan humus if necessary.
> 
> I just started plans for my own compost and thought I would add quite a few cubic feet of my old soil in the compost bin to get things started.


Sounds like you'll be off to a great start! Local is best and least expensive, or better yet FREE!!! The Alaskan humus is excellent and would add great diversity, but you'll pay. The local EWC should be fine until you have your own compost. Mix in a third EWC and you'll have no prob. I would flush the old mix tho.


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## tomahawker (Feb 28, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Sounds like you'll be off to a great start! Local is best and least expensive, or better yet FREE!!! The Alaskan humus is excellent and would add great diversity, but you'll pay. The local EWC should be fine until you have your own compost. Mix in a third EWC and you'll have no prob. I would flush the old mix tho.


Thanks RCM. I am planning on removing 1/3 of the existing mix as a starter base for a few different compost bins that I want to start. After rinsing the remaining soil, I would like to add the black gold EWC, some compost, and a little bit of organic rice hulls, pumice and lava rock. Then, probably let it cook for a while. 

Any idea what the easiest way is to flush the old mix?


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Feb 28, 2014)

tomahawker said:


> Thanks RCM. I am planning on removing 1/3 of the existing mix as a starter base for a few different compost bins that I want to start. After rinsing the remaining soil, I would like to add the black gold EWC, some compost, and a little bit of organic rice hulls, pumice and lava rock. Then, probably let it cook for a while.
> 
> Any idea what the easiest way is to flush the old mix?


You could maybe run water through a pot or container  Any good rain coming soon?


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## snowboarder396 (Feb 28, 2014)

Tomahawker, Id say once you get that soil going and living full of micro-organisms you'll be good. They will also help clean your soil out overtime.


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## Tjingles (Mar 2, 2014)

Hey so i have a question. I've made lacto-b before and did it with organic milk...I forgot to pick up some from wholefoods(also where I work) and am off tomorrow but my rice wash is ready now. Being no place in my general area has OG milk will my end product be affected if I used a none og milk?


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## tomahawker (Mar 2, 2014)

snowboarder396 said:


> Tomahawker, Id say once you get that soil going and living full of micro-organisms you'll be good. They will also help clean your soil out overtime.


I imagine it will take a long time for the soil to be populated with a lot of good micro-organisms. Will the plants be able to get enough of their nutrients from the newly mixed soil right away, or will I have to supplement with some organic nutes for a while at the start until the soil has enough nutrients on its own?


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 2, 2014)

As long as there is not to many things in the soil that would kill the microbes I dont think it would take long. I just mixed up a batch or organic soil couple days ago and it already has a good mycelium. Think of it this way you wanna feed the soil and microbes not the plant. At least this is what i have come to learn. They populate pretty fast if conditions are right and they have the food to sustain them. make up some good AACT and that will def. help get your soil moving along.


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 3, 2014)

Tjingles said:


> Hey so i have a question. I've made lacto-b before and did it with organic milk...I forgot to pick up some from wholefoods(also where I work) and am off tomorrow but my rice wash is ready now. Being no place in my general area has OG milk will my end product be affected if I used a none og milk?


Thats fine, ive read someone using almond milk, which i would advise not too because its more expensive, i say use the cheapest price milk u can get


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## Abiqua (Mar 4, 2014)

does almond milk have lactose?


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## hyroot (Mar 4, 2014)

Abiqua said:


> does almond milk have lactose?


no. Lactose comes from a mammal. Cow, goat, etc.....


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 4, 2014)

Thats what i was thinking to when i read he used almond milk, maybe i misread and aaid not to use almond milk.. My bad, bad avice, ill look into it


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## iforgotmymeds (Mar 4, 2014)

What are you using to make Lacto-b other than milk? And what are the benefits other than sugar (lactose)?


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## Tjingles (Mar 4, 2014)

Does this look rite..my last batch of lacto was looking a bit more yellow. This one smells fine but I was just wondering about the color??


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 4, 2014)

Okay Fellows...

Check out these ladies dressed in green and yellow, with sparkling trichomes which makes me mellow...

MY modified ROLS Blue Cheese 1gal pots in PHOGS, 24 inch tall plants, with about 8 to 10 inches of foliage on top for flowering
32 days into flowering about another 4 weeks to go...



DankSwag

​


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## farsb (Mar 5, 2014)

Hey guys great thread. I have been Growing using subs super soil for 2 years now with good results. I just came across this thread and I am very intrigued. I'm not looking for a spoon feeding since I know a little about organics. Okay here is my question, when you mix this mix for the first time there is no amendments on top it is mixed into the soil like a super soil then after each grow you simply cut the plant at base dig new hole and plant another in the same pot, and then add your amendments to the top of the pot. Did i forget or misunderstood anything?


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## supertiger (Mar 5, 2014)

I just read in this thread people are amending their soil with lyme? Isn't an ideal soil PH 6.5? Most soils naturally want to be at a 7 PH so wouldn't adding lyme increase the PH above 7 creating lockout? I've been adding Espoma Acidifier to keep my PH below 6.8.


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## DonPetro (Mar 5, 2014)

Some amendments incorporated into a soil mix such as blood meal and guano/manure will lower pH so lime is used to buffer against this as well as provide calcium and magnesium.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 5, 2014)

farsb said:


> Hey guys great thread. I have been Growing using subs super soil for 2 years now with good results. I just came across this thread and I am very intrigued. I'm not looking for a spoon feeding since I know a little about organics. Okay here is my question, when you mix this mix for the first time there is no amendments on top it is mixed into the soil like a super soil then after each grow you simply cut the plant at base dig new hole and plant another in the same pot, and then add your amendments to the top of the pot. Did i forget or misunderstood anything?


You got it. I like to scratch in some dry amendments and then cover that with a layer of vermicompost. I will then throw down some clover seeds as a cover crop which will fix atmospheric nitrogen. When you plug a new clone in there, you can just chop and drop the clover as it starts to get shaded out by your mj plant. The clover makes for a nice mulch.


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## farsb (Mar 5, 2014)

Great info stow I appreciate it. Can I use my used super soil for the start and reammend?


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 5, 2014)

farsb said:


> Great info stow I appreciate it. Can I use my used super soil for the start and reammend?


Absolutely! I usually add about half of the ammendments by volume of what I otherwise started out with when re-using the soil. You can always go light with it and top-dress further in to flower if you feel you need it. To me, a good source of compost layed down on the top is the key. I add quite a bit of minerals/rock dusts when I first build the soil so I don't add any more when re-ammending ..... so depending on how much you initially added you may or may not need to add more. You're gonna love the results. The soil seems to just keep getting better as you recycle it.


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2014)

I added Mykos to my mix and now I have a huge infestation of fungus gnats!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 5, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I added Mykos to my mix and now I have a huge infestation of fungus gnats!


BTI slam DUNK those em effers! Hate those damn things!


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## hyroot (Mar 5, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I added Mykos to my mix and now I have a huge infestation of fungus gnats!


bti doesn't work for shit. Just topdress with worm castings and compost. Gnats will be gone within a week.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 5, 2014)

hyroot said:


> bti doesn't work for shit. Just topdress with worm castings and compost. Gnats will be gone within a week.


WHAT?! My black gold top dressed with crab shell, neem, etc didn't do anything to those annoying effers. Top dressed a quarter chunk of the dunk and made a tea out of the other three quarters and they were done. They fly everywhere after the tea, so I put stickies on top of pots. BTIs absolutely work.


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## hyroot (Mar 5, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> WHAT?! My black gold top dressed with crab shell, neem, etc didn't do anything to those annoying effers. Top dressed a quarter chunk of the dunk and made a tea out of the other three quarters and they were done. They fly everywhere after the tea, so I put stickies on top of pots. BTIs absolutely work.


well california gnats are immune to bti. It never ever worked for me. topdressing with compost and worm castings had the best results. plus bennies and nutes


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 5, 2014)

hyroot said:


> well caliornia gnats are immune to bti. It never ever worked for me. topdressing with compost and worm castings had the best results. plus bennies and nutes


I wish the VC/CT worked for me. Woulda saved me 7$ on dunks. I was a little flustered, with all the chitin and VC in my soil, only to have those SOBs gnawing on my roots.


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2014)

Sevin seems to have done the trick. Just waiting to see whether it killed the worm.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 5, 2014)

I can't stand when those cocky bastards swarm you like it's there turf. I've knocked over solos, bumped my head on filters, burned myself on bulbs...all while swatting or chasing the damn things. I despise them so much, I smoke there dead bodies!


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2014)

I decorate my bulbs with them!




Cheers,
Mo


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## hyroot (Mar 5, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I can't stand when those cocky bastards swarm you like it's there turf. I've knocked over solos, bumped my head on filters, burned myself on bulbs...all while swatting or chasing the damn things. I despise them so much, I smoke there dead bodies!


to me the worst is when you have spider mites and webs. Yet there is zero damage to the plant since they have strong genetics. The spider mites wont leave regardless of what you use.. except for lady bugs. its just annoying... to deal with. not as frustrating as them eating your plants. I think I'm going to add a venus fly trap for the the crickets. I see one at least twice a week. My cat sometimes kills the crickets.....


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 5, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I can't stand when those cocky bastards swarm you like it's there turf. I've knocked over solos, bumped my head on filters, burned myself on bulbs...all while swatting or chasing the damn things. I despise them so much, I smoke there dead bodies!


LOL! I feel ya. I've wasted hours of my life swatting at those effers. 

BTI dunks work like a charm for me too. I sprinkle some of the bits on my soil, lay out a few sticky traps and they're toast within a week or two.


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2014)

When we moved in the people here before had a few cats. After about six months our back yard was overrun with crickets. The cats had eaten all of the lizards. Now our yard has lizards the size of snakes and we also have praying mantises. We had a pet praying mantis we got on a wreath from Oregon. It was a very cold winter so I brought her in every night and fed her crickets. The children were fascinated. The mantis would pick up a cricket and eat its head! 

In the morning I would put her back outside in the rose garden. Every night she would be back on the front door waiting for me to bring her in. She got very fat and then skinny again. This went on for about a month and then she died. A few weeks later I noticed the egg sack on the door. That spring we had little baby mantises everywhere and we have been getting them ever since. I found a few last year, one was on the Mulanje in the compost pile.






Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 5, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I decorate my bulbs with them!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hope you don't get a perm in that thing 





hyroot said:


> to me the worst is when you have spider mites and webs. Yet there is zero damage to the plant since they have strong genetics. The spider mites wont leave regardless of what you use.. except for lady bugs. its just annoying... to deal with. not as frustrating as them eating your plants. I think I'm going to add a venus fly trap for the the crickets. I see one at least twice a week. My cat sometimes kills the crickets.....


That's why I must use neem cake top dressed and oil for foliar. I wouldn't care if they weren't munching. Venus fly traps would make a hell of a living mulch! I remember May saying he tried the pepper method on mites, and he's still fighting em. Doesn't rosemary or lavender deter them?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 5, 2014)

Mohican said:


> When we moved in the people here before had a few cats. After about six months our back yard was overrun with crickets. The cats had eaten all of the lizards. Now our yard has lizards the size of snakes and we also have praying mantises. We had a pet praying mantis we got on a wreath from Oregon. It was a very cold winter so I brought her in every night and fed her crickets. The children were fascinated. The mantis would pick up a cricket and eat its head!
> 
> In the morning I would put her back outside in the rose garden. Every night she would be back on the front door waiting for me to bring her in. She got very fat and then skinny again. This went on for about a month and then she died. A few weeks later I noticed the egg sack on the door. That spring we had little baby mantises everywhere and we have been getting them ever since. I found a few last year, one was on the Mulanje in the compost pile.
> 
> ...


You take great pics. What's your creative strain?


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## hyroot (Mar 5, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Hope you don't get a perm in that thing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lavender and peppermint work. I haven't tried rosemary. Lady bugs work the best imo


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 5, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I can't stand when those cocky bastards swarm you like it's there turf. I've knocked over solos, bumped my head on filters, burned myself on bulbs...all while swatting or chasing the damn things. I despise them so much, I smoke there dead bodies!


Oh good I am not the only one to make an ass of myself swatting after those bastards!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 5, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You haven't commented on my new avatar...


Hello Ginger Irregular Softwood floor,

Mo says it looks good, maybe its the pink in the feeder that brings out the color in those charcoal bat eyes of yours...

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 5, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Okay Fellows...
> 
> Check out these ladies dressed in green and yellow, with sparkling trichomes which makes me mellow...
> 
> ...


Hey did I mention that these ladies are growing in ONE GALLON ROLS? 

DankSwag


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 5, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Hello Ginger Irregular Softwood floor,
> 
> Mo says it looks good, maybe its the pink in the feeder that brings out the color in those charcoal bat eyes of yours...
> 
> DankSwag


Haaa. I copied n pasted a photo he posted. I only had the duped avatar for a day lol. It was a nice poolside bush, in which he captured it's glory with perfect contrast


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 6, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Haaa. I copied n pasted a photo he posted. I only had the duped avatar for a day lol. It was a nice poolside bush, in which he captured it's glory with perfect contrast



Nice,.. bored thought I poke some fun at our Ginger!...

I heard this from a little birdie...

Why did God make Gingers? So those hating each other in the middle east could agree on hating something more egregious then each other. 
Apparently the Ginger was too WHITE and blinded each side in the middle east and infuriated more hostilities toward each other, but however when the sign of the great white Ginger appeared in the heavens...





A Voice could be heard saying...







DankSwag


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## hyroot (Mar 6, 2014)

You forgot about the sacred ginger cow.


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 6, 2014)

I Nominate we change it from RCW......



TO






DankSwag


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## farsb (Mar 6, 2014)

What is a good foliar spray to help my veg plants grow faster. They are growing at a real slow rate? Would a potassium silicate and aloe juice be best?


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 6, 2014)

Why did I pick this username lol. 

Fart, you can use kelp, aloe, alfalfa, ProTekt/Agisil, and many other ingredients listed on first page. Sometimes it's the grower or genetics. Pics?


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## DonPetro (Mar 6, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Why did I pick this username lol.


Haha i just realised its _Matches_...all this time i thought it was Munches. Hahaha


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 6, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Haha i just realised its _Matches_...all this time i thought it was Munches. Hahaha


Haven't heard that one before. OMG that's hilarious!!! Thank you Pedro.

EDIT: Good work DANK.


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## hyroot (Mar 6, 2014)

Carpet muncher, carpet stain, ginger, fire crotch, fruit bat, Robin, bat girl , any of those are acceptable nick names for Red


----------



## DonPetro (Mar 6, 2014)

no problem haha


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 6, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Haven't heard that one before. OMG that's hilarious!!! Thank you Pedro.
> 
> EDIT: Good work DANK.


Thanks Ginger Beard!

Every time I read RedCarpetMatches I want to finish the sentence, Red Carpet Matches the Drapes! "That's what she said" 


Anywise glad you like you new nick name Ginger Beard!

DankSwag


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## Steelheader3430 (Mar 8, 2014)

How many souls have you consumed Red?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 8, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Thanks Ginger Beard!
> 
> Every time I read RedCarpetMatches I want to finish the sentence, Red Carpet Matches the Drapes! "That's what she said"
> 
> ...





Steelheader3430 said:


> How many souls have you consumed Red?


ROFL! Okay, this is how I got my username...1) I was heavily medicated on green crack when signing up 2) My nickname is red, but many people tell me my hair doesn't look red anymore 3) the hairs on my bud (not bush) were very carrot top colored 4) my nickname matched the hairs on my bush...I MEAN BUD LMAO 2) I'm heavily medicated


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 8, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> ROFL! Okay, this is how I got my username...1) I was heavily medicated on green crack when signing up 2) My nickname is red, but many people tell me my hair doesn't look red anymore 3) the hairs on my bud (not bush) were very carrot top colored 4) my nickname matched the hairs on my bush...I MEAN BUD LMAO 2) I'm heavily medicated


OMG IPMP! from LMAO!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 8, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> ROFL! Okay, this is how I got my username...1) I was heavily medicated on green crack when signing up 2) My nickname is red, but many people tell me my hair doesn't look red anymore 3) the hairs on my bud (not bush) were very carrot top colored 4) my nickname matched the hairs on my bush...I MEAN BUD LMAO 2) I'm heavily medicated


Yeah Red Stick with Ginger Beard, since you are a self confessed Ginger that went Albino.

If its true what you say that your hairs not red anymore then take a copy of picture of your face or head (not revealing yourself of course), like zoom in around your nose mouth chin. Then paste it next to the post of a red flowering bud below that has your name on it. It should bring back memories for you when bud hairs did match your face.







DankSwag


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## Tjingles (Mar 10, 2014)

Hey I haveel a question. With rols is it necessary to let water drain to waste when watering. Can I water directly in my tent and let them absorbe any run off since there getting watered with aact, sst, aloe and such there shouldn't be any salt build up hence no reason to waste water or move pots around as long as there isn't to much water of course. Am I wrong? Does anybody else set there's on a drain rack when watering? I do. But would love to stop if possible and as long as it won't hurt anything


----------



## hyroot (Mar 10, 2014)

Tjingles said:


> Hey I haveel a question. With rols is it necessary to let water drain to waste when watering. Can I water directly in my tent and let them absorbe any run off since there getting watered with aact, sst, aloe and such there shouldn't be any salt build up hence no reason to waste water or move pots around as long as there isn't to much water of course. Am I wrong? Does anybody else set there's on a drain rack when watering? I do. But would love to stop if possible and as long as it won't hurt anything



thats fine. My pots absorb all the runoff. like you said no salt build up since we do pure organics. The only reason to set them on a rack is for the bottom roots to get oxygen. Which is a good idea too. Maybe set pots a layer of garden pebbles. So it can do both


----------



## hyroot (Mar 10, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Yeah Red Stick with Ginger Beard, since you are a self confessed Ginger that went Albino.
> 
> If its true what you say that your hairs not red anymore then take a copy of picture of your face or head (not revealing yourself of course), like zoom in around your nose mouth chin. Then paste it next to the post of a red flowering bud below that has your name on it. It should bring back memories for you when bud hairs did match your face.
> 
> ...


i think Red has a big red mark across his fore head in the same shape as that bud lol


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 10, 2014)

hyroot said:


> i think Red has a big red mark across his fore head in the same shape as that bud lol


That's my red carpet against your forehead...I'm alpha.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Mar 10, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> That's my red carpet against your forehead...I'm alpha.


LMAO Love ya guys!


----------



## viewer1020 (Mar 11, 2014)

Anybody else tried growing in 100% fresh vermicompost?

My grow area is small (a cube with just under 2 feet per side), so my plants can't be more than a foot high (less if the pot is tall).

I'm using small containers (ranging from small party cups to 2.5 - 3 gallons). The three larger pots contain a plant started in normal recycled soil and transplanted into 100% vermicompost. The party cup plants were grown from seed in straight vermicompost. The big pots get straight water all the way through flower, while the party cups had a drink of undiluted worm farm runoff at around week 4 of flower.

The plants are looking pretty healthy - they're a mix of bagseeds, some are very resistant to insect attack and disease, while some suffer a bit. In future grows I'll be concentrating more on cuttings and seeds from the more resistant plants. Before, when I tried mixing organic soils with a bit of vermicompost included, I had all sorts of problems. Poor growth, multiple deficiencies, spider mites, fungus gnats. Now that I just use vermicompost and old soil, the plants thrive.

Or, if they're weak to begin with, the mites in the soil eat them. The mites aren't a problem, though: they eat dead and dying plant matter (including sick seedlings), and they eat other arthropods. I haven't seen a spider mite since these mean creatures arrived. I never added them, by the way: they just made their home in my worm farm, and since they don't attack the worms, I let them be. Now there are few fungus gnats, and nothing else which seems to attack the plants.

My yields are not stellar, but that's to be expected for my low-power setup (40 watts for 2 square feet of ground). I'll be fine tuning a lot of other aspects of my grow from this point on (pot size, number of plants, harvest schedule), but my search for "perfect soil" seems to be over - the worms (with a good diet and some amendments) produce exactly what's needed, and with small pots, watering is no problem. Even if it dries and shrinks a bit, the top tends to curve inward, making a nice bowl, and water drains into the dried surface surprisingly well (assuming you don't let it dry out completely). A good layer of leaf mulch helps a lot here too.

I also want to thank all you guys for alerting me to aloe powder. I use whole leaf powder (not the inner leaf gel) when taking cuttings, and have seen much, much better results (than from using nothing - I've never used rooting hormone). Most cuttings survive, and many take off rapidly.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 11, 2014)

I would think growing in vermicompost would be fine as long as you account for the lack of aeration. I would mix *at least* 1/3 rice hulls or something similar. It might be beneficial to use coco coir as your worm bedding and then just use unscreened castings.


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## viewer1020 (Mar 11, 2014)

Definitely no screening - indeed, I'm not using worm castings, but whole vermicompost with lots of fibre in the worms' diet (coconut husks, corn husks and cobs, composted stable manure including straw and sawdust). The result is sticky when wet, but it can be crumbled up when added to the pot, and retains a fair crumb size with lots of air pockets, even after repeated watering (found this out when crumbling up the root ball from a finished plant, putting it all back into the worm farm).


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## Mohican (Mar 11, 2014)

Sounds like the perfect consistency!


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## Steelheader3430 (Mar 11, 2014)

My worm farm is full of those little opaque mites. Super slow and tiny. I let it dry out and the numbers diminished, but after I dumped a slurry of banana, avacado and cucumber in there they came back big time. They don't seem to bother anything but I am Leary of hem getting into my soil.


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## hyroot (Mar 12, 2014)

^^^^^ those are predatory mites. They are beneficial. They eat and break down organic matter and they eat other pests. Once their food source is gone they die off.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 12, 2014)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^^ those are predatory mites. They are beneficial. They eat and break down organic matter and they eat other pests. Once their food source is gone they die off.


I've had these for two runs. Very cool seeing all the life in the soil.


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 12, 2014)

Since I've learned that a cubic foot not yard of earthworm compost sells for 40 to 50 dollars and I've found a local shop that will sell my castings out of a bin. So hell ya I'm starting my worm farm project even now as I type I am eating a banana whose peel that will be worm poo soon.

DankSwag


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 13, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> My worm farm is full of those little opaque mites. Super slow and tiny. I let it dry out and the numbers diminished, but after I dumped a slurry of banana, avacado and cucumber in there they came back big time. They don't seem to bother anything but I am Leary of hem getting into my soil.


They shouldn't be a problem, but if you start seeing an obscene amount of them you can remove a bunch by just placing a melon rind on the top of the bedding and leaving it for 24 hours. They will accumulate on the rind which you would then just remove, or rinse off and place back in the bin if you want to ditch more of them.


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## Steelheader3430 (Mar 13, 2014)

Thanks guys. I've done some research on them, but its best to have my homies reaffirm. I think I put too much sphagnum in there to start with, thinking about removing some to speed up casting harvest. They hated the shredded newspaper on top so I pulled it and covered it with dead leaves. They took to the bin great after that.


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 13, 2014)

The very small opaque white ones are good as well as most the mites you will see in your bin. Very few cases of parasitic mites have been found. Mites seem to love things in the cucurbits family, so cucumbers, melons, squash etc. They also like conditions more on the moist side of things. The little white ones you speak of as well help in getting rid of any unhealthy or dead worms in your bin by feasting on them, they will not hurt your healthy living worms! I wouldnt worry about them if they make you crawl under your skin and you'd rather not have so many of them you can do as others have mentioned with melon rinds or let the bin dry out just a little but. However i wouldnt do this unless you have a massive population explosion of mites, they will compete for food with your worms. That would be the only issue in having a very large mite population explosion.


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 13, 2014)

WORM DROPPING OF THE DAY!

RED MITES SOLUTION - PREVENTION

SIMPLE EFFECTIVE BRILLIANT

KEEP PH ABOVE 7.0 (Add Calcium Carbonate)
KEEP MOISTURE AT 70 to 80%

TO PREVENT SOUR CROP KEEP PH ABOVE 7.0
DO NOT OVERUSE PROTEIN AS FOOD 

ANTS COMPETE FOR FOOD DO NOT ADD SUGARS
TO LESSEN ATTRACTION

OTHER PREDATORS CAN BE FLOODED TO TOP OF SOIL
INCREASE MOISTURE TO 85 to 90 PERCENT
USE TORCH TO BURN OFF INSECTS ON TOP OF SOIL

DANKSWAG


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## Qunnabu (Mar 15, 2014)

love this thread thanks =D


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## Tjingles (Mar 19, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> WORM DROPPING OF THE DAY!
> 
> RED MITES SOLUTION - PREVENTION
> 
> ...



I had to take a screen shot of this. Might make it my phone background also lol. ...


hmmmm. Anyone think an indoor worm farm is doable? say during winter months when outdoor worm farming isn't an option.


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## Steelheader3430 (Mar 19, 2014)

I've got my 10 gallon rubbermaid farm in the kitchen and my wife has no complaints. No smell, just a tub on top of the pantry.


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## NickNasty (Mar 20, 2014)

I have my compost tumbler and my worm bin inside my basement. Why would it be a problem? It doesn't stink and really doesn't attract other bugs . I have an electric wood chipper downstairs too so no plant materials really leave my basement besides the ones that are being smoked.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 20, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I've got my 10 gallon rubbermaid farm in the kitchen and my wife has no complaints. No smell, just a tub on top of the pantry.


That's awesome in more than one way!


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## Mohican (Mar 20, 2014)

Like Like Like!


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## iforgotmymeds (Mar 20, 2014)

My compost bin finally exploded on me... . I recycled a old chicken coup to make mine and the other day while I was turning the soil the sides blew out.. . I had it for 2 years though so it served me well.


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## samisomo (Mar 24, 2014)

Hi everyone i have a question about ROLS,
If i dont have bone meal and such products in my country, can i use chicken bones and meat waste crushed up and mixed into my ROLS soil as added minerals?
if so how much time will it turn into a finished product for my plants u think?

thnx


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## iforgotmymeds (Mar 24, 2014)

I would not recommend putting meat in your soil the closest to meat I would have to say is fish.


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## Mohican (Mar 24, 2014)

I built a quick worm farm from my 5 gallon hempy buckets! I put an old #7 smart pot upside down over the top bucket as a lid. I can't wait to see what goodness comes out the bottom! I could make 20 of these! Fast and easy and it has a handle. I could stack them 5 or 6 tall!


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## DANKSWAG (Mar 24, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I built a quick worm farm from my 5 gallon hempy buckets! I put an old #7 smart pot upside down over the top bucket as a lid. I can't wait to see what goodness comes out the bottom! I could make 20 of these! Fast and easy and it has a handle. I could stack them 5 or 6 tall!


What no pics, come on now some folks just don't have imaginations anymore... love to see this though...

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Mar 24, 2014)

It was work work work this weekend! I barely had time to get pictures of this:




here is a concept of the grow house in the north garden:





Cheers,
Mo


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 24, 2014)

Mo it's looking good are you using cedar? It's gonna look Badass when done


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## Mohican (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks! It is Redwood.


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 25, 2014)

That's what I thought, but then I was thinking cedar because it's cheaper.. definitely gonna look Badass, I have some curly redwood, flame maple, and curly cherry to use for projects . This is for the greenhouse right?


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## Mohican (Mar 25, 2014)

One is a screened-in garden to protect from birds and animals. The concept picture is for the greenhouse grow room.


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 25, 2014)

So the one your building now is just screened in area for protection? And for the greenhouse do you plan on having actuated cieling panels for ventilation and air?


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## Mohican (Mar 25, 2014)

They will be at the back so the slant of the roof will direct the heat out of the room. There will be fans also. 

Drew this rough concept just to show the location and layout.


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 25, 2014)

Mo, do you plan on using glass, plexi/acrylic, or heavy plastic sheeting? And I'm assuming you'll use redwood for that as well to match. 

Are you just getting your redwood from homedepot or special source. I know it's not as cheap. But it looks great


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## Mohican (Mar 25, 2014)

I got 50 sheets of assorted colors of plexi from a guy on Craig's list a while back. I will probably use some of that. Not sure about the structure material. Probably Redwood.

I get the wood at a lumber yard. It is coming together nicely


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## iforgotmymeds (Mar 26, 2014)

you could try thick clear plastic it comes in large rolls at Home Depot 6mm I think. Or corrugated plastic sheets, are you going to put a wall up to mount fans to?


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## Mohican (Mar 26, 2014)

Yes! Lights, fans, irrigation...


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## SupraSPL (Mar 26, 2014)

Tjingles said:


> Anyone think an indoor worm farm is doable? say during winter months when outdoor worm farming isn't an option.


I have 4 rubbermaid 10 gal totes full of hundreds of redworms I collected from leaf piles (sometimes there are piles of castings in the leaf piles as well). I cut out a large opening in the lid and duct tape screen (paint strainer) over it so worms and gnats cannot escape. I collect pill bugs, springtails, mites and spiders too. Avoid centipedes. I use leaves and cococoir as bedding, never paper. Only organic food scraps as food.

There is no drain but because of the large air opening it is more likely to get dry than wet. Sometimes I keep them in the living room sometimes in the basement. The worms breed and make awesome castings, I can never have enough.

One warning, when the rubbermaid totes are brand new they have a plastic smell. I wash them thoroughly with dish soap and rinse thoroughly in the tub before use.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 26, 2014)

My worms would beat the shit out of any of your worms!

I don't take 'manure' shortcuts. I let em work for it. They were fighting to death over the mango...the REDS won 

I agree with the extra air holes. Keeps the decomposing cooler, and the food keeps things moist. Perfect balance.

I really am digging (so are the worms) the coco and leaves combo. Keeps everything diverse and fluffy moist.


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## abe supercro (Mar 27, 2014)

appears adding that crabshell action early on is really working on Fungus Gnats. the crab shell juice bacteria, that it attracted, must me munching on the few that have been around or they'd populated by now. learning dirt


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 28, 2014)

abe supercro said:


> appears adding that crabshell action early on is really working on Fungus Gnats. the crab shell juice bacteria, that it attracted, must me munching on the few that have been around or they'd populated by now. learning dirt


BTI dunks will nuke em and add even more bacteria.


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## abe supercro (Mar 28, 2014)

Thanks... I was just stopping back to edit n add that I thought it was my BT sprinkle bits that had the impact on gnats, but I'll replenish my 'dunks' to stay on it. Oh I need Spinosad too, I worry about root aphid and thrips all while still confusing the two. 
see there's a lot to read here, took me awhile to find HERE.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 28, 2014)

BTI bits and sticky traps should do the trick abe


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 28, 2014)

I like to put the sticky traps on top of soil too.


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## snowboarder396 (Mar 29, 2014)

Spinosad can be bad to beneficial insects and bugs I wouldn't use it


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 29, 2014)

Baby oatmeal is a great way to get your fungus going. Skips the whole undercooked brown rice or wetting oatmeal thing. Very cheap too. 

Any thoughts on SSTs causing early fade?! I notice very nice vigor after the SST. Do the enzymes and hormones cause faster nutrition deprivation? Don't know how else to explain 6-7 week fade on 10 week strains. I use very rich 2" top dress, and don't think I'm running out of nutrition. I doubt it's a PH prob, because plants are great until the later weeks.


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 30, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Baby oatmeal is a great way to get your fungus going. Skips the whole undercooked brown rice or wetting oatmeal thing. Very cheap too.
> 
> Any thoughts on SSTs causing early fade?! I notice very nice vigor after the SST. Do the enzymes and hormones cause faster nutrition deprivation? Don't know how else to explain 6-7 week fade on 10 week strains. I use very rich 2" top dress, and don't think I'm running out of nutrition. I doubt it's a PH prob, because plants are great until the later weeks.


Define early fade? Like leaves start dying out? Change color?
The only time i ever notice a "fade" on new growth was with a sst mix with bio ag, i think i might of over done it with the fulvic, but it was back to normal within a couple of days..

I do notice at times my plants fading a little quicker then usual in late maturity, but havemt link to sst.. Think of it more as genetics.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Define early fade? Like leaves start dying out? Change color?
> The only time i ever notice a "fade" on new growth was with a sst mix with bio ag, i think i might of over done it with the fulvic, but it was back to normal within a couple of days..
> 
> I do notice at times my plants fading a little quicker then usual in late maturity, but havemt link to sst.. Think of it more as genetics.


The fading/yellowing/sucking the food out of fans/lock out???, is starting around week 6 and full blown at 8. This is happening on 10-11 week strains. IMO that's VERY early. 

What makes it really weird, is that I've been doing 12/12 from seed. I also top dress when I see pistils. The nutrition is there. Now why would plants look lush until that exact 6 week mark? 

Maybe too much Ca in combination to my hard tap? I have tons of Ca with my calphos, crab shell, oyster flour, gypsum, dolo, egg shells in EWC, tap, kelp, etc etc DAMN that's a lot. Thought the extra Ca would help with the coco dom mix it's happening in. Hasn't happened in my peat dom mix yet. 

I'm trying to narrow it down to either SSTs creating monstrous nutrition sucking bitches, too much Ca, doubt a PH prob? Calling all soil heads!!!


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 30, 2014)

Ah hard water.. Theres your problem, how ling u been growing with hard water? I use RO water, most bad grows i had where link to hard water, even some super soil grows. You just never really truly know whats in that shit, espeically if your in a heavy urban area


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## DonPetro (Mar 30, 2014)

I would have to agree with above. A pure water source is a huge key.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

DUH lol!!! Thanks. Just went back through some old journals, and noticed I never had early fade issues with RO. I'm on my third full organics run now...all with tap. 

Any RO unit recommendations?


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 30, 2014)

Stealth is always decent price with good customer service. But i say go with the cheapest one you can find, even on CL. Its the internals that matter, membrane, filters can always be replaced. If u happen to find one that needs a membrane hit me up, i got a bunch new ones


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2014)

I've been using tap water for years. No problems. My tap is around 100 ppm's. 
Red you are over thinking it. Your plants have early fade because you didn't use enough nutes or the nutes haven't broke down enough.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I've been using tap water for years. No problems. My tap is around 100 ppm's.
> Red you are over thinking it. Your plants have early fade because you didn't use enough nutes or the nutes haven't broke down enough.


My tap is 8.3 @ 400-500ppm...on top of the tons of lime.


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## DonPetro (Mar 30, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I've been using tap water for years. No problems. My tap is around 100 ppm's.
> Red you are over thinking it. Your plants have early fade because you didn't use enough nutes or the nutes haven't broke down enough.


100 ppms is all good. Reds is way to high.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 30, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> My tap is 8.3 @ 400-500ppm...on top of the tons of lime.


http://www.420magazine.com/forums/do-yourself/116351-diy-reverse-osmosis-small-scale-grower-cheap-portable-effective.html genius stoner, no need to take it apart just run in straight from the garden hose on the rinse setting; TDS results are impressive for such a cheap unit. You got a pep boys/autozone near you red??



edit...........nevermind it's been discontinued...........bummer


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

I wouldn't mind an RO filter anyway. We go through a lot of water bottles.


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2014)

Red just go to those glacier water vending machines. I fill up my drinking water from those. 25 cents a gallon.. 0-7 ppm's. I use same water to make ice and make hash too. Sometimes water plants if I lag on aerating water or making a tea.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Red just go to those glacier water vending machines. I fill up my drinking water from those. 25 cents a gallon.. 0-7 ppm's. I use same water to make ice and make hash too. Sometimes water plants if I lag on aerating water or making a tea.


That's what I'm doing now, and what I also use for hash. I have a fill station basically around the corner. I'd still rather save gas and time by having one at home.


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> That's what I'm doing now, and what I also use for hash. I have a fill station basically around the corner. I'd still rather save gas and time by having one at home.



as much water as I fill up. I spend $5.00 -$10.00 a month on it. It would take over 2 years of filling up water to equal the cost of a RO system. If I solely used it fo my garden. That would $15.00 a week. I plan on grabbing a RO system eventually. Just other shit comes first


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

hyroot said:


> as much water as I fill up. I spend $5.00 -$10.00 a month on it. It would take over 2 years of filling up water to equal the cost of a RO system. If I solely used it fo my garden. That would $15.00 a week. I plan on grabbing a RO system eventually. Just other shit comes first


I go all out with everything else...don't see why I wouldn't do the same with water. All I have to do is skip one bean order lol. 

Doesn't too much Ca lock out Mg and K? If my fried memory serves me right, the excess Ca also slow down P uptake?


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2014)

Yes. Too much cal will lock out potassium and vice versa. Too much mag will lock out cal. I forget if too much cal locks out mag or not. I got to check on that.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 30, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I go all out with everything else...don't see why I wouldn't do the same with water. All I have to do is skip one bean order lol.
> 
> Doesn't too much Ca lock out Mg and K? If my fried memory serves me right, the excess Ca also slow down P uptake?



very hard to get a cal toxicity, and hyroot's right too much mag(easy to overdo IMO) will lock out cal............that's why dolo/horti lime is out for me in LOS

Us east coast growers have acidic soil/+ chem ferts ==== you always added lime using synthetics, with organics that high% mag will do more harm then good.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

My Ca/Mg has got to be at least 10:1

cups/cu ft:
2 gypsum
1 oyster shell
1 crab shell
1 dolo
1 calphos

crushed egg shells and dolo in EWC

HARD WATER. 

I want a good soil test kit.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 30, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> My Ca/Mg has got to be at least 10:1
> 
> cups/cu ft:
> 2 gypsum
> ...


Yeah your water sucks..............why add dolo/calphos, when your have gypsum/crab/ewc??? way overboard with your water, your ph is off no doubt. Not even the best los soil will self-adjust to that IMO.

your local township/university AG department can test your soil


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## RedCarpetMatches (Mar 30, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Yeah your water sucks..............why add dolo/calphos, when your have gypsum/crab/ewc??? way overboard with your water, your ph is off no doubt. Not even the best los soil will self-adjust to that IMO.
> 
> your local township/university AG department can test your soil


I forgot to mention calcium bentonite lol. I crush the dolo for worm bin grit and Mg. Used a lot of Ca because I went with a mostly coco mix. I'm curious to see what my current run will do with peat...no coco. Eventually, I plan on mixing the two batches and going no till.


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2014)

^^^^^ that's your problem.. Redudntant regiment. Too many of the same nutes. Drop the cal po mag, gypsum, and lime and benotite.


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## Abiqua (Mar 31, 2014)

I think Albrecht suggested 7:1 to start, and I don't think 10:1 is out of the question at all. 

I have been out catching crawdads and drying out a few I don't eat or feed to the dogs. Gonna crush all the shells up for a cal experiment, fingers crossed


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 7, 2014)

Sweetness, near my Organic Farm there is a cow pasture filled with THIS YE HA !
 

JACK POT... Now how do I handle this again and use it?

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Apr 8, 2014)

What is it?


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 8, 2014)

That my friend is a Stinging Nettle Patch, supposedly there is some type of native american ginseng plant around these part of the woods too, but it is dangerous to handle, if a barb from it gets in your skin it will eventually make its way into your blood stream and could even damage your heart and cause death. Its a power ginseng plant but one should take extreme care when handling it. If I find them I post pics.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urtica_dioica

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 8, 2014)

DANKSWAG
You should see my backyard! Its full of nettles! From baby ones to very large ones.
My advise is, when they are very large aNd developed, carefully (i dont use gloves, but i rec u do) pull from bottom shaft, (no it wont sting u! I promise!) and take the whole plant out including roots! Chop roots off and let dry, i usually just throw in the whole plant as is in 5 gallons water,(sure u can blend the plant, but honestly just throwing in the whole plant works just as fine. let itferment one day, then add air stones and bubble it for two days, finish tea color will b very green tea like with resin glance floating in it. i use as it, or dillute it if you going to use in your soil. 11 is a good ratio. Great for ipm! Then ill throw the used plant either in wormbin/compost or top dress, by this time the plant will not sting u, nor the water, only when fresh and alive it will sting u.
Now as for the roots u leftout to dry, collect as much as possible, grind it up, and ferment/tea, repeat process as mention earlier! Roots have more benefical properties especially for fungicide and insectice properties. Btw, i have left tea out in room tempature over a week and still worked well, also left in fridge over a month and still worked well, has long life shelf
Love my nettle!


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 8, 2014)

Couple side notes i forgot to mention about nettle,
If this is your only batch, then dont pull the whole plant, only pull if you are sure u have baby nettles to replace those. Also i cant seem to find article, but i read nettle has beneficial properties for people, natives used it for many reasons, i believe some even drink it in low quantities, will look for article when i can


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## Mohican (Apr 8, 2014)

Like!


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## RedCarpetMatches (Apr 8, 2014)

Dank...did you get stung


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 8, 2014)

Hahaha red u remind me of my stinging nettle, stings people for no reason..


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 9, 2014)

Word of the day

Bio-Diversity

Can u spot the mushroom?


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## DonPetro (Apr 9, 2014)

Good to see some peeps can still upload pics. Dammit.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 9, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Dank...did you get stung


Na, but damm I forgot how much cow shit stinks, but when I give thought to it, it becomes the smell of MONEY!

I am so freaking pumped, site is near being cleared and soon leveled. Then a large green house to provide about 512 square feet for vermi compositng and hopefully about 128 feet for vermi culture. Once established then I will work on larger scale using outdoor windrow, I want to ensure I have a indoor system in place that will be the little stean engine that could until the bigger diesel one comes online.

Onsite will be three Tin Man retort systems incorporating the double barrel technique using a 30 gallon in a 55 gallon. for bio-char production which I hope to have going this weekend. I've even got some local growers who want to outsource their soil mixing to me so they can focus on other aspects of their operations. So I am freaking stoked! I've also looked into state certified organic label $400 application $200 a year to renew. However only need 95 percent output to qualify and certain non organic items are allowed. So hopefully I can swing that certification and that should bump up product value and revenue!

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Apr 10, 2014)

Congratulations!


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## ~Dankster~420 (Apr 10, 2014)

Hello. Just thought I would let everyone know I have a little side by side grow going. No rules or anything, all in fun, wish I could give out prizes to the winner, but its against forum rules. Anyways I would like if everyone could join. I also added a side bonus. Lets see who can get those 3 ounce monster cola's or more  3 ounce contest thread -> https://www.rollitup.org/p/10396937/ 

side by side thread --> https://www.rollitup.org/p/10392841/


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## DonPetro (Apr 11, 2014)

Central root mass ROLS. Harvested 1-1/2 mths ago, just been keeping moist and top-dressed with a teaspoon of blended dry amendments. The pot is totally loaded with wigglers. Amazing!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 13, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Central root mass ROLS. Harvested 1-1/2 mths ago, just been keeping moist and top-dressed with a teaspoon of blended dry amendments. The pot is totally loaded with wigglers. Amazing!View attachment 3125997


NICE!


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## medichronic (Apr 20, 2014)

ok so I am wanting to give the ROLS a try I have a few 7gal pots that had 1/2 pre bagged tga super soil and 1/2 roots 707 after harvest I cut the stock of at ground level put a good handful of red wiglers 2 cups local compost and 2 cups EWC, I wet with a good compost/EWC tea, that was about 1 month ago. my question is what more do I need to do to the soil and how long to wait before I can give this method a try?


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## safety meeting (Apr 20, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> That my friend is a Stinging Nettle Patch, supposedly there is some type of native american ginseng plant around these part of the woods too, but it is dangerous to handle, if a barb from it gets in your skin it will eventually make its way into your blood stream and could even damage your heart and cause death. Its a power ginseng plant but one should take extreme care when handling it. If I find them I post pics.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urtica_dioica
> 
> DankSwag


The indian ginseng you speak of is called Devils Club and it is in the ginger family, nasty little bitch.


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## legaleyes13 (Apr 20, 2014)

First and foremost, amazing thread guys. I really appreciate it.

I'm about to build a no till bed, but have never grown in soil before. I'm a hydro guy who is sick of mixing nutes, ph'ing everything, and crawling around wires and multiple reservoirs in a cramped room, so I'm making the switch. However, I'm confused by certain things. I'm gonna go with a mix that was posted on the first page of this thread.

Soil Base - Per Cubic Foot

33% Priemier Peat (brand name) I buy this for 9.99 at lowes 3cfu
33% Pumice/Perlite/Lava rock (I'm using perlite cause I have much on hand)
33% Combination of Compost and vermicompost.

*Amendment Mix*
1/2 cup Organic Neem or Karanja Meal
1/2 cup Organic Kelp Meal

*Rock Dust Mix*
4 cups Basalt & Glacial Rock Dust Mix

*Lime Mix*
1/2 cup Gypsum
1/2 cup Crab Meal

I'll probably throw some biochar and little bit of alfalfa in there too. (recommendations on how much to throw in are more than welcome). But what I'm really having trouble understanding is how you guys apply other nutes such as guanos. Is it always with a tea since it isn't in the soil? Do you top dress after the grow is under way? And if you do topdress, will it stay in the soil for the next run meaning I won't have to topdress in the future or will I need to reapply it every run? Or do you just foliar with it and cut it off once buds form? And how often are tea applications suggested? I've seen once a week suggested, but is more better?

For the record, the bed I plan on building will be 4x4. Thanks in advance. I really appreciate this thread and your future responses.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2014)

legaleyes13 said:


> First and foremost, amazing thread guys. I really appreciate it.
> 
> I'm about to build a no till bed, but have never grown in soil before. I'm a hydro guy who is sick of mixing nutes, ph'ing everything, and crawling around wires and multiple reservoirs in a cramped room, so I'm making the switch. However, I'm confused by certain things. I'm gonna go with a mix that was posted on the first page of this thread.
> 
> ...


Some folks will build there soil initially to take them from veg to flower and the only thing you add is H20 and care. I prefer this for I too grew tired of keeping up with the mechanics of using a hydro, in fact I learned how to use hydro and soil in a system called PHOGS (Passive Hydroponic Organic Grow System), See my links. So I get the best of both, no feeding and no watering. I let my plants water and feed themselves. To me I found it easier just to recycle my soil but amending again with all the macro, micro and trace nutrients via organic products, but that is because I don't use large containers which IMHO work best for ROLS

ROLS is a way to maintain soils once organically mixed and cooked for use. It keeps the biology of the soil in the container and requires larger containers for I have tried this in one to two gallon pots and it is not suited for such a small space, for essentially you will be planting clover cover crops and legumes, one to fixate nitrogen in the soil the other to bring nitrogen out of the air which in turn to be used as green manure for you will uproot and allow to decompose. ROLS is where large pots of soil don't have to be dumped out of their containers and remixed. They remain in the containers and teas and top dressings and such are used to ensure the soil stays rich in micro life and nutrients for the soil. It is simply a way of keeping the established fungi chains and bacteria prospering and growing for they will feed the next plant to be transplanted into this living soil, in order to do so you cannot cook the soil again.

The key here is you CANNOT ADD HOT manures and meals and certain amendments that will cause the soil PH balance to alter, unless you intend to start fresh say you think you have a bad foul smell in your soil (anaerobic bacteria) bad guys, this is where cooking it will do good again. 

Because of this, manures should be composted, thus the EWC or used in a tea not in soild normal state they have to be diluted and this is were compost teas come into play. ROLS to me is an advanced way of growing and you will need time under your belt to understand what your plants are telling you about the soil they are in. 

It would be best to have you start building your soil, you can use recipes well know for how they will grow a plant well from start (veg) to finish. Such as Subcools which everyone pretty much starts with then tweaks it to make their own.

Seedlings and clones have to have light soil mix, your typical Black Gold Organic Soil mix with Worm castings will do. 

Once you've made your hot mix, mixed and water well, keep in warm place maintain moisture keep soil covered to allow bacteria to grow, you should see a Tnice white bread of bacteria do not scrape it of, turn it into the soil. The warmer faster the hot items will decompose into the mix with the help of bacteria, this is where you can add your own if you chose to create LAB (lactoe acid bacillus) and spray into soil mix to accelerated the decomposition of the hot materials, making the soil ready for use as super soil.

Always add your Fungi after soil is cook and PH is stabilized back to 6.9 - 7.0, building a fungal web in the soil is the apex for some in ROLS. The symbiotic relationship between plant roots and fungi is a treasure of nutrient path ways for a plant to thrive on.

Hope that helps provide a little more clarity, so you must cook a great soil that will take your plants from veg to flower to harvest. Then see if you can keep that soil biology going using ROLS methods. I would keep some premixed soil handy in case you find ROLS requires to much time and attention.

DankSwag


----------



## legaleyes13 (Apr 21, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Some folks will build there soil initially to take them from veg to flower and the only thing you add is H20 and care. I prefer this for I too grew tired of keeping up with the mechanics of using a hydro, in fact I learned how to use hydro and soil in a system called PHOGS (Passive Hydroponic Organic Grow System), See my links. So I get the best of both, no feeding and no watering. I let my plants water and feed themselves. To me I found it easier just to recycle my soil but amending again with all the macro, micro and trace nutrients via organic products, but that is because I don't use large containers which IMHO work best for ROLS
> 
> ROLS is a way to maintain soils once organically mixed and cooked for use. It keeps the biology of the soil in the container and requires larger containers for I have tried this in one to two gallon pots and it is not suited for such a small space, for essentially you will be planting clover cover crops and legumes, one to fixate nitrogen in the soil the other to bring nitrogen out of the air which in turn to be used as green manure for you will uproot and allow to decompose. ROLS is where large pots of soil don't have to be dumped out of their containers and remixed. They remain in the containers and teas and top dressings and such are used to ensure the soil stays rich in micro life and nutrients for the soil. It is simply a way of keeping the established fungi chains and bacteria prospering and growing for they will feed the next plant to be transplanted into this living soil, in order to do so you cannot cook the soil again.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the response man, but I'm still a little confused. Is the mix I posted up (that's also posted on the first page of this thread) considered a good mix? I'm fairly sure that I'll have to add other amendments via teas and foliar, but that is alright with me. Fulvic, silica, and aloe w/ every watering and foliar application is fine w/ me and isn't too much work at all. But is there more to this than I currently realize? Are there other nutes that I should add besides just silica, fulvic acid and aloe...? Pest prevention is one thing, and I know what to do there, but I'm really just talking about feeding the plant?

How would I add guanos, or steamed bone meal, or whatever? From what I gather from your post, it's a bad idea to topdress w/ hot stuff like guanos? So should I just make a tea out of em and water w/ it? I don't have the option of starting w/ a supersoil and working my way up to ROLS due to certain circumstances, so I have to dive right in.

Thanks again.


----------



## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2014)

legaleyes13 said:


> Thanks for the response man, but I'm still a little confused. Is the mix I posted up (that's also posted on the first page of this thread) considered a good mix? I'm fairly sure that I'll have to add other amendments via teas and foliar, but that is alright with me. Fulvic, silica, and aloe w/ every watering and foliar application is fine w/ me and isn't too much work at all. But is there more to this than I currently realize? Are there other nutes that I should add besides just silica, fulvic acid and aloe...? Pest prevention is one thing, and I know what to do there, but I'm really just talking about feeding the plant?
> 
> How would I add guanos, or steamed bone meal, or whatever? From what I gather from your post, it's a bad idea to topdress w/ hot stuff like guanos? So should I just make a tea out of em and water w/ it? I don't have the option of starting w/ a supersoil and working my way up to ROLS due to certain circumstances, so I have to dive right in.
> 
> Thanks again.


If you have to dive right in and can't begin by mixing a complete soil and letting it cook. Then you will have to acquire some already made.
If you mix something together with hot amendments such as guano and blood or bone meals you must let it cook (decompose) or you will kill your transplants.
Therefore since you don't have the option at the moment to mix a blend to your specifications I recommend you use:;

_GARDNER & BLOOME® EDEN VALLEY BLEND POTTING SOIL
Contains top-shelf organic ingredients like kapok seed meal, seabird guano, and sardine meal to help plants grow vigorously while developing abundant flowers & fruit.
High coconut coir content provides an environmentally sustainable amendment that improves drainage & moisture retention.
Crab chitin helps to naturally control fungus gnats and other soil borne pests._

Typically again hot items are adding at the beginning when there is time to cook the soil and allow soil to neutralize to a 7.0 PH
Yes you would have to dilute guano in tea, however in ROLS the idea is to add organic amendments that will not disturb the balance in the PH.
Therefore this is where kelp meal, alpha meal, crab, fish and other organic amendments with lower NPK values as to not alter the soil PH.

If you look more at what it takes to build a complete soil, i.e. Subcool's soil recipe you will get a better understanding of what organic amendments provide the Macro nutrients NPK, and the micro nutrients such as calcium and magnesium along with what can provide the trace elements as well.

So if you don't have the time to build a soil and learn your inputs properly, then purchase a complete soil as I recommended then start your ROLS processes as you desire. 

PS there is a layering technique when building soil that you don't have time to allow it to cook. You'll need to do some more reading on this technique you can burn your plants if you don't know what your doing.

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2014)

I planted in hot supersoil my first try and it worked but I did have some curly tips!




Cheers,
Mo


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I planted in hot supersoil my first try and it worked but I did have some curly tips!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mo,

How established was she before you transplanted?

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2014)

They were about ready to get out of their 1 gal pots:




I was out of town for a month and when I returned everything had changed.

Next pic I have of them is after they stretched - Mulanje Gold 100% Sativa:




Cheers,
Mo


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2014)

50% SS in cloth pots in a bed of pumice in metal tubs. Mainlined for 4.




Cheers,
Mo


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 21, 2014)

Very nice MO, I see you have incorporated a form of passive hydroponics setting the cloth soil pots on top of pumice in an outer container. I like!

Well that explains why they survived the hot soil, they were established and roots could stay within already established soil till they eased themselves into it.
Kind of like getting in hot shower, as you strip and get closer to the heat coming of the water you body accumulates as opposed to being tossed into from the cold.

DankSwag
PS Can't wait to get my 24 by 48 foot green house up on my organic farm. Then I will really get a chance to do some soil mixology and hopefully develop a process where I can take spent soil and blend into my own ultra balanced organic high octane soil mix to keep the cation action happening to its maximum potential as the guest (vegetation) enjoy the hospitable surroundings from their host (my soil) for they shall be contently rooted. Mi tierra es tu tierra!


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2014)

Me too! A giant worm bin with composted goodies and maybe some rabbit poop


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## legaleyes13 (Apr 21, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> If you have to dive right in and can't begin by mixing a complete soil and letting it cook. Then you will have to acquire some already made.
> If you mix something together with hot amendments such as guano and blood or bone meals you must let it cook (decompose) or you will kill your transplants.
> Therefore since you don't have the option at the moment to mix a blend to your specifications I recommend you use:;
> 
> ...


I have time to let it cook, but I have to source the material and start mixing it within the next 2 weeks. That doesn't give me much time to get the amount of research that I would typically want before starting a completely new system, and that's what I mean by dive right in.

So, do you think the mix I posted is decent? And how are guano and other hot fertz used in ROLS? You're giving me the sense that they aren't used at all because of whatever ph issues they cause.


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2014)

ROLS is kinda like growing in a perpetual compost pile where you feed the microbes, which then in turn feed the roots.


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## Mohican (Apr 21, 2014)

Speaking of compost - here is what remains of my pile:




Cheers,
Mo


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## legaleyes13 (Apr 22, 2014)

I feel like I rambled and made things more complicated than they need to be. Forget all of that talk about fertz and guano, what I'm really asking is how do I get started? All of this stuff is a bit overwhelming. I can make the mix posted on the 1st page and let it sit, but then what? transplant the clones and that's it?

Then from there, what is a basic feeding regimen? Foliar with what and how often? How often do I feed w/ teas, and how often do I topdress? 

I really am sorry to ask you guys to spell it out for me, but I'm really looking to get started and this thread is so long. I've been reading it along w/ others for quite awhile now. I know feedings are based on the plants needs, so there is no set in stone way of saying what teas I should feed it and when, but any type of fundamental guidelines, just to help me wrap my mind around all of this are very very very welcome.

Thanks again.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 22, 2014)

legaleyes13 said:


> I feel like I rambled and made things more complicated than they need to be. Forget all of that talk about fertz and guano, what I'm really asking is how do I get started? All of this stuff is a bit overwhelming. I can make the mix posted on the 1st page and let it sit, but then what? transplant the clones and that's it?
> 
> Then from there, what is a basic feeding regimen? Foliar with what and how often? How often do I feed w/ teas, and how often do I topdress?
> 
> ...


Legaleyes13, 

You use your base soil for seedlings, add amendments to large volume of base soil to make super soil. Place Super Soil in bottom half container and base soil in top half, when transplanting make sure to apply mycro fungi to roots to help build the symbiotic relationship between fungi and roots in the soil. You'll find as you build your soils you will develop your own recipe. If you build a soil properly no need to feed foilar or otherwise. however if you want to do that that is where compost tea comes in because spraying your plants with diliuted manure used to create healthy bacteria will give additional feeding and protection against disease. The top dressing, foliar feeding, compost teas are methods to supplement feeding should you soil mix not be up to par. If a base soil and highly amended soil (Super Soil) are made right at the beginning no need for additional feeding. 

The recipe below is complete and from another member rfog? The purpose of creating super soil is that it will feed your plants from veg to harvest no need to continue to add nutrition. You stimulate the soil life microbes by using compost teas that have Earth Worm Castings and Guano's but this is to primarily created healthy bacteria and fungi to add to your soil biology, it is the microbes that need nutrition in turn they take organic matter and make it in available forms for the plants roots.

There is a book called teaming with microbes, you will need it if you want to master using soil, for what your feeding is the soil biology then in turn they will take care of all your plants needs, you just need to keep the soil web and its micro life happy. It really isn't that complicated. 

*If anyone's interested in a better soil with much better cost savings MIX YOUR OWN. Then RECYCLE IT. Throwing away dirt is not necessary. 
Base Soil

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (pumice and lava rock)
1/3 EWC

Per Cubic Foot of the Base Soil:

3 cup Charcoal (activated)
4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)

1/2 Cup Neem Meal (2 g / L)
1/2 Cup Crab Shell Meal
2 Cups Kelp Meal 
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
1/2 Cup Alfalfa

1/2 cup this 3 part lime mix:

1 part powdered dolomite lime
1 part agricultural gypsum
2 parts powdered oyster shell


1 cubic foot = 7.5 gallons.

Moisten with Fresh Aloe (2 Tbs Juice with 1 gallon water) and Accelerant Tea (Comfrey, Yarrow, Horsetail or Nettle) 

I pre-inoculate with BTI and Nematodes.

DankSwag*


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 22, 2014)

legaleyes13 said:


> I feel like I rambled and made things more complicated than they need to be. Forget all of that talk about fertz and guano, what I'm really asking is how do I get started? All of this stuff is a bit overwhelming. I can make the mix posted on the 1st page and let it sit, but then what? transplant the clones and that's it?
> 
> Then from there, what is a basic feeding regimen? Foliar with what and how often? How often do I feed w/ teas, and how often do I topdress?
> 
> ...



I'm going to recommend an easy introduction for you, but first here's what I would do. Set yourself up a worm bin! The compost that you use is the most important piece to the puzzle. EWC brings the micro-life to the mix, and without a thriving colony of beneficial microbes in your soil it doesn't matter what ingredients you add. Setting up a worm bin (or two, or three) is as easy as picking up a 15 gallon rubbermaid tote from Home Depot, adding some bedding and kitchen scraps, then adding some worms. You can order your worms online at Uncle Jims, or source some locally. You will need *at least* a pound (roughly 1,000 worms) to start a bin. Get the worm bin started NOW, and then when you're ready to make your next batch of soil the castings from these bins will be ready to use.

A basic, easy soil that will get you great results is as follows:

Base:
-1 bag Fox Farms Ocean Forrest (1.5cf)
-1 bag RINSED coco coir (1.5cf-2cf)
-1bag worm castings/compost (1cf) *purchase the best quality stuff you can find locally
- 1cf aeration material (perlite, rice hulls, lava rock, pumice, etc)

To that, add the following:
-1 cup alfalfa meal
-1 cup kelp meal
-1 cup neem seed meal
-1 cup crab shell meal
-1 cup dolomite lime (because it's the easiest to source)
-2 cups all purpose organic fertilizer (Espoma, Down to Earth, Dr Earth, etc)
-15+ cups rock dusts (this will be the most difficult to find, but it's very important)

Mix all of those ingredients together with your base, wet it down and let it sit for 6 weeks. You want the soil moist, but not wet. Check it every few days. If you start to smell an ammonia odor, dump it out on a tarp and let it get some air for a few hours. If you wet it down properly you shouldn't need to do anything, but it's not a bad idea to check on it periodically until you get the hang of it. This recipe will give you plenty of juice through veg and the first few weeks of flower. At that point you can top-dress apx 1/4-1/2 cup (depending on the size of your container) of your all purpose organic fertilizer, and cover that with and inch or so layer of worm castings/compost. You can use nothing but water if you so chose, but I would recommend a silica product (pro-tekt or agisil) once every couple weeks, and some fish hydrolysate every couple of weeks as well. Aside from that you can use plain water. If you're using tap water be sure to let it sit out for 24-48 hours to allow the chlorine to dissipate, and if your city uses chloramine it would be a good idea to use an organic ingredient to bind the ammonia which allows the chlorine to then dissipate. RO water is fine to use as well.

Dankswags recipe above is great, but to me it's for more advanced organic gardeners. Making bio char, and using a 100% peat base can be tricky. If you don't activate the bio char properly, it can actually steal nutrients from the soil and work against you. Also peat is VERY acidic, so until you get the hang of properly liming your soil using coco coir as part of your base gives you more room for error imo. I use coco coir as a part of my base and I love it.

Good luck


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## legaleyes13 (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks guys... I'll mention, that even for my first mix, I can get my hands on some high quality compost, so I don't need to start out with the bagged stuff if that makes a difference. I have teaming with microbes already, but haven't gotten through much of it yet. For whatever reason, I thought ROLS/no till was different than mixing super soils and layering.

I'll get on the worm bin, too.


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## Mohican (Apr 22, 2014)

It starts the same. However, when you finish with that plant you just start another plant in the same pot of soil instead of throwing it on the roses and starting with fresh soil.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 22, 2014)

In my own defense the recipe I posted is not mine it is from RFOG? Anywise the base is *1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (pumice and lava rock) 1/3 EWC. 

NONE THE LESS SOMETHING NICE FOR MY ROLS FRIENDS
http://oregonbd.org/Class/accum.htm

DankSwag*


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## RedCarpetMatches (Apr 22, 2014)

I just found a cheap source of pumice. My rice hulls are getting a tad mushy, and my 3rd gen coco is basically peat in texture. I'm hoping pumice will not float like perlite...combine that with small lava rock, and be done with the fussin. 

I find the higher biochar PH (8-9) a perfect compliment to the acidic peat.


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## Mohican (Apr 22, 2014)

If you don't want floaters you can use sand (well washed) or pea gravel. I had some left over from a block wall project at my old house and I spread it all over my garden. Best moisture retention and weed blocking mulch ever for my hot climate! I have also read good things about volcanic sand. I tried making some by crushing volcanic rock but all I ended up with was powdered cement!


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 22, 2014)

Hi Ginger Bread Man, 

You should think about making char out of those rice hulls 

So I use a mix of peat moss, small volcanic rock, crushed oyster shell, coco, char and rice hulls and cloth pots
to provide aeration and prevent compaction.

But I am working on making char from rice hulls and testing it.

DankSwag


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## Mohican (Apr 22, 2014)

Thanks - I have tried ashes from the Malawi trimmings.

How much char should I use? Have you seen the mesquite charcoal they sell in stores. Looks like perfect biochar and shatters like glass. Pretty cheap too 




Cheers,
Mo


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## hyroot (Apr 22, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Thanks - I have tried ashes from the Malawi trimmings.
> 
> How much char should I use? Have you seen the mesquite charcoal they sell in stores. Looks like perfect biochar and shatters like glass. Pretty cheap too
> 
> ...


yep I asked about that a while ago in one of these threads if it can be used for biochar. But I just found out I'm not allowed to have a charcoal BBQ or smoker. Thanks hoa... That same charcoal is cheapest at stated bros. Less than $5 a bag.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 22, 2014)

Mo,

If it's from pure Mesquite and not saturated with an accelerate to burn as fuel for cooking. 

Char should be from pure unadulterated carbon sources and have no petroleum bi products added to it.

If one could get pure Mesquite and then activate it by soaking in compost tea then hell ya use it and all you can get of it.

If there was only one amendment I could be allowed to use it would be char, it is a biology LIFESTAR as opposed to the deathstar
For all one has to do is let char sit for a cycle in your compost pile and PRESTO magic highly bio active soil that will get better and better 
and with a half life of hmm 5k years. Not to mention the carbon sequester in the char that reduces CO2 emission, also its ability to absorb
methane gas coming from manures decomposing. It also indirectly reduces carbon because a healthy larger plant will consume more C02.

DankSwag


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## hyroot (Apr 23, 2014)

I finally got around to building sifter screens for the worm bin. Any ideas on what to do with left over mesh wire?. I got a almost a whole roll left..


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## RedCarpetMatches (Apr 23, 2014)

You can buy some very fine cheap char from KIS. You only need 5-10%. BUT the cool people make it.


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 23, 2014)

Char will raise your ph, combined with dolo(which I stopped using altogether/too much mag)====problem

You west coasters, shouldn't even be thinking about making your soil even MORE alkaline......unless your taking soil from a pine forest,lol

I would go easy on the bio-char, maybe 5%??


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## Mohican (Apr 23, 2014)

I was wondering about that. I saw that it can be overdone. I have alkali water and soil. I am still trying to find the sweet spot for my blueberries! They like 4.5 pH!

@hyroot - I will take the screen! Any pics of your sifters?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Apr 23, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I was wondering about that. I saw that it can be overdone. I have alkali water and soil. I am still trying to find the sweet spot for my blueberries! They like 4.5 pH!
> 
> @hyroot - I will take the screen! Any pics of your sifters?


My friend couldn't get much out of his blueberry bushes last season. I talked him into a compost pile with a ton of pine needles. 

BTW folks, soft wood and a long slow char won't give you too high of a PH.


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## Mohican (Apr 23, 2014)

Found this:



> *Frequently asked questions*
> Can barbeque charcoals be used as biochar?
> Generally, no. Charcoal briquettes are mostly made
> from de-volatilized coal and contain chemicals that can
> ...


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## RedCarpetMatches (Apr 23, 2014)

You can also char pine needles. 

It's dandelion season! Worm bin looking dandy.


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 23, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You can also char pine needles.
> 
> It's dandelion season! Worm bin looking dandy.



Who the [email protected] has the time to char their own shit??.............so all natural briquettes are out(trader joe's brand)??


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## RedCarpetMatches (Apr 23, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Who the [email protected] has the time to char their own shit??.............so all natural briquettes are out(trader joe's brand)??


I spend a lot of time on my Weber anyway. You can use that Cowboy hardwood brand. If you don't have time to make, you can order from KIS and Black Owl.


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## Mohican (Apr 23, 2014)

You could cook the residual crap out of the natural charcoal to make it clean. Quicker than making it from scratch.


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 23, 2014)

Local bio char is 5$ a pound over here!! Mad fking expensive.

Check what i found, 2 for 1$ 












Experimented with it on my yoda clones, half responded with praying leaves almost instantly with this stuff, the other took what they normally would with reg water. So i geuss it works well!


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 23, 2014)

Great, something else you Cali boys can rub in our face! ....................how much sugar??

Yeah premade biochar is pricey, I was looking at BAS's stuff, even offer it pre-charged with chicken manure $25 for 10 pounds, not bad.


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2014)

Mo,

My goodness that is worse then pouring synthetic fertz into your soil

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Great, something else you Cali boys can rub in our face! ....................how much sugar??
> 
> Yeah premade biochar is pricey, I was looking at BAS's stuff, even offer it pre-charged with chicken manure $25 for 10 pounds, not bad.


Exactly why I started my own Organic Farm business, you should see what the going price of worm composting castings are 

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 23, 2014)

Sugar 15 grams


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2014)

I will have tons of char soon, I am building 3 retort systems to produce it. Nothing but virgin slash (Alder) to make tons of it cheap in my neck of the woods.
So there will be a supply for those in the know where to go, YO! 

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (Apr 23, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You can also char pine needles.
> 
> It's dandelion season! Worm bin looking dandy.


I've been looking at some cool new weeders to use to collect mine, letting them mature and trying to get them before they seed. 
Even if I irradicate all my weeds before seeding happens it won't matter neighbors have plenty that will blow into the yard for next spring.

This one looks very handy and practical 








I also like the traditional Japanese Hori Hori tool as well










No one has really answered my question on effectiveness of bio activators letting them break down in aerated water verses a anaerobic environment where decomposition happens and produces a foul smell from the higher levels of anaerobic bacteria that are dominating any aerobic bacteria.

I rather not have such foul smelling aromas and possibly kill of my good bacteria in my soils if I don't dilute enough.
Seems to me I can get same benefit of bio activators such as dandelion, nettle and the like if I let them soak and break down in aerated water.

Does anyone know why the recommended method of using bio activators to let to rot and get smelly like that? To me it seems less risky and I have a constant water supply now for days that is a light pea green by only soaking about 4 to 5 stems with about 4 to 6 leaves. I've went through at least 8 gallons of water over the last few days. My girls are loving it praying and all. Nice and green no deficiencies.

DankSwag


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## ColoradoGrowin (Apr 27, 2014)

Hello!

I've finally finished this gigantic thread! I want to _seriously _thank all of you for this wealth of knowledge you are passing on! I am starting my first batch of ROLS for my indoor mmj and would love to take these ideas to my veggie garden next summer. I do have a couple questions tho..

I did rrog's mix from page one, almost. I have roughly 9cuft total

1/3 Ewc and compost
1/3 pearlite/lava rock
1/3 peat

Rock dusts is where my questions are. I sourced a lot of this online and it was very difficult to tell if it would be enough before I started mixing. So I ended up a little short on this end.

I did ( total )

6 cups glacial
3 cups bentonite
10 cups azomite

I also have 1/2 cup per cuft of
Neem meal,crab,kelp and gypsum

And 2 cups alfalfa.

I subbed azomite because I had it around! My question is, do you think this mix will be sufficient for the first round? Also, I was curious how the azomite would effect my soil ph. 

I haven't planted yet and wanted to make sure I would be good to go before I started! Now that I am learning how to source this stuff locally, I will never order a ton of stuff online again.. 

Thanks in advance for your input!


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## legaleyes13 (Apr 27, 2014)

ColoradoGrowin said:


> Hello!
> 
> I've finally finished this gigantic thread! I want to _seriously _thank all of you for this wealth of knowledge you are passing on! I am starting my first batch of ROLS for my indoor mmj and would love to take these ideas to my veggie garden next summer. I do have a couple questions tho..
> 
> ...


Hey man, I'm new to this too, and I have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind.

I'm assuming you picked up a 3 cuft, block of peat from wherever. I've heard those blocks actually break up to be more than 3 cuft... is that true? And did you have a difficult time mixing all of that soil... I need about 9-10 cuft, so your experience would give me a big heads up. I'm using pretty much the same ingredients plus fish bone meal, fish meal, biochar, and maybe oyster shell powder... no bentonite though?

Thanks in advance.


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 27, 2014)

From experience azamite will burn your plants, especially if its bot composted long enough.

The few rols batches ive done, only one was some what bad because of theexcessive amount of azamite i put in. 

10 cups on 9cf might b a little too much imo. Add compist, compost/cook longer, problem solved


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## ColoradoGrowin (Apr 27, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> From experience azamite will burn your plants, especially if its bot composted long enough.
> 
> The few rols batches ive done, only one was some what bad because of theexcessive amount of azamite i put in.
> 
> 10 cups on 9cf might b a little too much imo. Add compist, compost/cook longer, problem solved



Thanks ff. I'll be cooking my soil for a solid four weeks minimum before I plant, should i let it go a couple more weeks to be safe? 

Do you think I will have enough minerals from the rock dusts that I have in it? It seemed like I was pretty short, that why I added so much azomite. Will azomite even give me a good source of the minerals I'm missing in my lack of glacial/bentonite?


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 28, 2014)

, 

Looked over ur recipe, and it looks good, i would look into more rock dust, but no worries if you cant source it, def not the end of the world, nor will it hurt ur soil.

In 4 weeks test try a clone, see how she does for a week, if no weirdness then your are good to go, now until then, coco/aloe/enzyme water for your batch to speed things up


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## ColoradoGrowin (Apr 28, 2014)

legaleyes13 said:


> Hey man, I'm new to this too, and I have a couple of questions for you, if you don't mind.
> 
> I'm assuming you picked up a 3 cuft, block of peat from wherever. I've heard those blocks actually break up to be more than 3 cuft... is that true? And did you have a difficult time mixing all of that soil... I need about 9-10 cuft, so your experience would give me a big heads up. I'm using pretty much the same ingredients plus fish bone meal, fish meal, biochar, and maybe oyster shell powder... no bentonite though?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me? The peat did break up to be a lot more than 3cuft for sure. It wasn't that hard to mix up tho, just a tarp and some elbow grease  
Hope this helps!


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## ColoradoGrowin (Apr 28, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> ,
> 
> Looked over ur recipe, and it looks good, i would look into more rock dust, but no worries if you cant source it, def not the end of the world, nor will it hurt ur soil.
> 
> In 4 weeks test try a clone, see how she does for a week, if no weirdness then your are good to go, now until then, coco/aloe/enzyme water for your batch to speed things up


Good to hear. I just wanted to make sure I could wait until I reammend before I added more rock dusts. Thanks again!

Thanks for showing me this thread too. I'm excited to see how my first LOS turns out!


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## legaleyes13 (Apr 28, 2014)

ColoradoGrowin said:


> I'm not exactly sure what you're asking me? The peat did break up to be a lot more than 3cuft for sure. It wasn't that hard to mix up tho, just a tarp and some elbow grease
> Hope this helps!


Yeah, I'm stupid. Didn't mean to put a question mark at the end of that paragraph 

You answered my questions in full. Thanks.


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## ColoradoGrowin (Apr 28, 2014)

legaleyes13 said:


> Yeah, I'm stupid. Didn't mean to put a question mark at the end of that paragraph
> 
> You answered my questions in full. Thanks.


Haha, no worries, glad I could help.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Apr 30, 2014)

Dank,
I dry my clover and dandelions in a paper bag for worm bins. I plan on hang drying some horsetail grass too.

Biochar is also AMAZING in compost. I aerate my char in an alfalfa tea over night...1 T/gal

In other news, my fade issue has almost gone with the switch to RO!!! Thanks for help fellas!


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## Stoned Drifter (May 6, 2014)

heres my high brix rols recipe. been sitting for 2 weeks. not too sure how it gonna turn out.
*1/3 compost 
1/3 sphagnum peat 
1/3 pumice 

Per cuft of base:

4 cups rock dust mix (6x glacial, 1x powdered oyster shell) 

1/2 cup neem meal 
1/2 cup crab shell meal
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2cup Alfalfa meal
1/2cup Azomite
1/2 cup of 6-5-3* = 6 parts *Limestone*, 5 parts *Soft Rock Phosphate *and 3 parts *gypsum*


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## foreverflyhi (May 7, 2014)

Been reading alot on high brix grows. Not sure what to think about that, but awesome idea non the less


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## hyroot (May 7, 2014)

Stoned Drifter said:


> heres my high brix rols recipe. been sitting for 2 weeks. not too sure how it gonna turn out.
> *1/3 compost
> 1/3 sphagnum peat
> 1/3 pumice
> ...



whats the high brix coming from...? for high brix you add sst's or molasses. brix is sugar. The kelp and glacial rock dust will have some ... Not enough to keep high brix.. You should get a brix meter too. Adding azomite and lime stone is a little redundant when adding glacial rock dust already. Gypsum takes a year or 2 break down... so make sure mash into a powder


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## Tjingles (May 8, 2014)

SupraSPL said:


> I have 4 rubbermaid 10 gal totes full of hundreds of redworms I collected from leaf piles (sometimes there are piles of castings in the leaf piles as well). I cut out a large opening in the lid
> and duct tape screen (paint
> strainer) over it so worms and gnats cannot escape. I collect pill bugs, springtails, mites and spiders too. Avoid centipedes. I use leaves and cococoir as embedding, never paper. Only organic food scraps as food.
> 
> ...


That's awesome! I finally got mine started. 20 gal tote with holes on top and bottem. Beddi g is peat, lil bit of soil, lil bit of rice hules, lil bit of shrdded egg carton and some egg and oyster shell ground up with some biochar. Started off with 1500 reds so I expect things to crank along nicely!


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## foreverflyhi (May 8, 2014)

hyroot said:


> whats the high brix coming from...? for high brix you add sst's or molasses. brix is sugar. The kelp and glacial rock dust will have some ... Not enough to keep high brix.. You should get a brix meter too. Adding azomite and lime stone is a little redundant when adding glacial rock dust already. Gypsum takes a year or 2 break down... so make sure mash into a powder


I just made a batch 2-3weeks ago and didnt grind up the gypsum nore dolmite, will my mix b off? Should i grind them up and add?


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 8, 2014)

Brix is for wine grapes.


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## hyroot (May 8, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> I just made a batch 2-3weeks ago and didnt grind up the gypsum nore dolmite, will my mix b off? Should i grind them up and add?


dole lime takes as long to break down too. You want it in powder form to break down faster. Mash it grind it whatever


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 8, 2014)

Ground dolo in worm bin FTW! I couldn't go without my mortar n pestle. Egg shells, dolo, potash, neem, meth...all to little bits. 

What do you guys think about VERY VERY rich EWC only for fert? I've been slowly adding dandelions, red clover, neem, etc so bin doesn't overheat. 

You want to see worms go nuts...add kashi! They'll eat and sex all night.


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## Ohmless (May 8, 2014)

I am looking to have a no till mulching system when I move outdoors next summer and am planning ahead. I live in Michigan BTW. I was going to use a supersoil mix the first year and need to source oyster shell.

Question 1: Should I buy the powder "flour" or should I buy another grade?

Question 2: Also have the concern with not having enough browns for composting appropriately. Should I just give the green waste more time to compost or am I worrying over nothing? Another option is to go with locally available aged/composted horse and cow manures if anyone has recommendations or preferences.

Question 3: Winter cover crop?

Question 4: Are there any near neutral pH mulches that I can add annually? if neutral pH isn't important, then what makes a good mulch and what do you recommend?

thanks for letting me pick your brains


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## hyroot (May 8, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Ground dolo in worm bin FTW! I couldn't go without my mortar n pestle. Egg shells, dolo, potash, neem, meth...all to little bits.
> 
> What do you guys think about VERY VERY rich EWC only for fert? I've been slowly adding dandelions, red clover, neem, etc so bin doesn't overheat.
> 
> You want to see worms go nuts...add kashi! They'll eat and sex all night.



my outdoor I didnt use any nutes. just topdressed vc and used clover as a companion crop. small 3 gal. still go big frosty buds. its an rols 3 gal too. same pot that the the skywalker that committed suicide was in..


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## hyroot (May 8, 2014)

Ohmless said:


> I am looking to have a no till mulching system when I move outdoors next summer and am planning ahead. I live in Michigan BTW. I was going to use a supersoil mix the first year and need to source oyster shell.
> 
> Question 1: Should I buy the powder "flour" or should I buy another grade?
> 
> ...



1.what powder flour are you referring too?

2. green waste if dried can turn into brown material.. same shit imo... let it compost longer 2 months is a good compost time. dont use horse manure. composted cow manure or alpaca manure is ok i guess. They have multiple stomachs so it becomes probiotic after composting. Horses Ney. I do veganics or if any animal anything, only crab meal... thats just me..

3. winter cover crops / living mulch are used in the season prior to planting. to keep the microbial life alive and add nitrogen to soil.

4. ph has no place in organics, every thing is a natural ph buffer and / or regulates ph. If you add nutes only use bark or wood chips as a mulch.. green living mulch adds way too much nitrogen... Bracken is the only plant that has large amounts of phos when composted . its highly carcinogenic. So no go there.


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## Ohmless (May 8, 2014)

http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html

oyster shell flour


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## hyroot (May 8, 2014)

Ohmless said:


> http://www.groworganic.com/oyster-shell-lime-50-lb.html
> 
> oyster shell flour


yeah that's good. If you use crab meal you may not need it. Crab meal has mag and cal


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## Below66 (May 8, 2014)

I love eating fish and seafood so much I've thought of doing a future all sea/crustacean fed bud, feed em' straight herbs and sea stuff.


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## Tjingles (May 9, 2014)

In kashi you meen bokashi rite? I have a bucket that I recently added char to and took a piece of aloe skin out and tossed it in with my worms.hour later I looked n they were all over it!


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## NickNasty (May 9, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Brix is for wine grapes.


You can measure the brix of any plant and the higher the brix the better your plant is doing. Brix is not just sugar its amino acids,minerals,sugar,etc. Brix measures the nutrient density of a plant and the more nutrient dense a plant is the healthier and tastier it is. Testing the brix of your plant is a good habit to get into when trying out new things for instance test a plant leaf right before you add a tea then test another leaf at the same time the next day day. If the brix goes up then you know the tea helped the plant if it goes down then you know that it didn't help.


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## Mohican (May 9, 2014)

Do you use a brix light meter?


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 9, 2014)

You don't have to use oyster shell. There's Horti lime t


Tjingles said:


> In kashi you meen bokashi rite? I have a bucket that I recently added char to and took a piece of aloe skin out and tossed it in with my worms.hour later I looked n they were all over it!


Yes bokashi...not too much as to get hot (sprinkle like salt). I wouldn't put anything straight into worm bin from a kashi bucket.


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## Tjingles (May 9, 2014)

Yeah ph would be off the charts low for the worms. My thought process was that hopefully the prior added char would bring it up a bit. Didn't check though. Havn't ph'd anything in quite a long time.

In the bin I have a wee bit of char along with egg and oyster shell ground along with horti lime(espoma). In total I'd say 3-4tbs. Bedding is fairly unshredded peat with a bit of rice hulls and a handful of soil


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## st0wandgrow (May 10, 2014)

hyroot said:


> 4.* ph has no place in organics, every thing is a natural ph buffer and / or regulates ph.* If you add nutes only use bark or wood chips as a mulch.. green living mulch adds way too much nitrogen... Bracken is the only plant that has large amounts of phos when composted . its highly carcinogenic. So no go there.


I don't buy this. I hear people saying this all of the time, but I feel it's kind of misleading. Why does every recipe call for liming ingredients if ph doesn't matter? Peat is extremely acidic, and without dolo lime, oyster shell flour, etc your ph would be way out of range. I had this happen myself with one of the first batches I made. Miscalculated liming agents and had some pretty severe lockout because of it. I think a good source of humus can *help* buffer ph, but measures do need to be taken beyond that.


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## Tjingles (May 10, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't buy this. I hear people saying this all of the time, but I feel it's kind of misleading. Why does every recipe call for liming ingredients if ph doesn't matter? Peat is extremely acidic, and without dolo lime, oyster shell flour, etc your ph would be way out of range. I had this happen myself with one of the first batches I made. Miscalculated liming agents and had some pretty severe lockout because of it. I think a good source of humus can *help* buffer ph, but measures do need to be taken beyond that.


I feel if you just balance out what you give them everything works out.. I do nothing but comfrey, nettle, or horsetail tea with some added homemade fpe's.my original mix has some lime, crab,egg,oyster, and plenty of humus from multiple sources.humates are capable of breaking down or chelating metal elements and the microbes breakdown everything else I feel if that balance is maintained soil will proliferate in a very wide range of PH. Obviously the extreme highs and lows in ph will not do. But who is going to mix a mix with a ph of 3 or 11 or so on. I feel in organics that range of what normally would be 6-7 for optimal performance is really more like 5ish to maybe 8.5 which I'm sure almost all of us fall in that range. Just my 2 cents. No one adjusts the ph in the middle of the woods and you can find all different types of plants growing which if you read up on I'm sure they would give all different ph ranges for optimal growth of these plants, yet they still do just fine in their natural equalibrium.


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## st0wandgrow (May 10, 2014)

Tjingles said:


> I feel if you just balance out what you give them everything works out.. I do nothing but comfrey, nettle, or horsetail tea with some added homemade fpe's.my original mix has some lime, crab,egg,oyster, and plenty of humus from multiple sources.humates are capable of breaking down or chelating metal elements and the microbes breakdown everything else I feel if that balance is maintained soil will proliferate in a very wide range of PH. Obviously the extreme highs and lows in ph will not do. But who is going to mix a mix with a ph of 3 or 11 or so on. I feel in organics that range of what normally would be 6-7 for optimal performance is really more like 5ish to maybe 8.5 which I'm sure almost all of us fall in that range. Just my 2 cents. No one adjusts the ph in the middle of the woods and you can find all different types of plants growing which if you read up on I'm sure they would give all different ph ranges for optimal growth of these plants, yet they still do just fine in their natural equalibrium.



You added liming ingredients when you first made the soil. How do you think you would fair without them?

Also comparing an old growth forest to a 5 gallon container is apples and oranges IMO. In nature plots of land have years, decades, centuries to acclimate and buffer. We have weeks, in a relatively small, isolated environment. Again, if you don't believe me try working with a peat base sans any liming agents and see for yourself.


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## NickNasty (May 10, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Do you use a brix light meter?


Yes you can use a digital refractometer or the lens type brix refractometer both are easy to use. Just take a mortar and pestle and grind up a leaf then squeeze out some juice on the lens and it will give you a reading.


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## hyroot (May 10, 2014)

even adding lime won't have any effect for a long time.when you add lime its for the season the following year. It takes that long to break down. No one uses only peat and lime. Compost, coco, worm castings, are ph buffers as well. I never said everything regulates and buffers ph. I said and / or......


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## DANKSWAG (May 10, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't buy this. I hear people saying this all of the time, but I feel it's kind of misleading. Why does every recipe call for liming ingredients if ph doesn't matter? Peat is extremely acidic, and without dolo lime, oyster shell flour, etc your ph would be way out of range. I had this happen myself with one of the first batches I made. Miscalculated liming agents and had some pretty severe lockout because of it. I think a good source of humus can *help* buffer ph, but measures do need to be taken beyond that.


Oh boy do I really want to step into this one... let me try to be diplomatic on this, I think what we want to acknowledge is PH is important so I agree with stownngrow cause after all to low and you will lock out nutrients, increase fungi over bacteria thus impacting soil life ect.

However I agree with Hyroot cause in organics PH is much easier then synthetic salt nutrients, adding admendments properly will self regulate a properly mixed and cook soil. 

In my experience PH is easier to maintain because in organic growing natural amendments when added properly will balance off the effect of High N and P sources that when composting will lower ph especially when using dolomite lime and other sources of cal mag that will help buffer this and long lasting slow sources of calcium is essentially in keeping that balance.

Hyroot it is important to consider using the proper sources of lime to bring in calcium and not just dolomite lime but as stowngrown said, oyster shell crushed will provide long lasting release of calcium carbonate to help keep the soil PH regulated properly.

But sure as shit if you don't have your soil mixed properly and cooked properly your plants will not do well or die in a low PH and that is just a scientific fact, so it is important to know what your soil PH is especially if you are using a new formula or recipe or adding a new ingredient. Its just that PH is not important in soil mixed and tested for if is amended properly and maintain properly during grow no worries it self regulate and that is when PH is not a big deal, when the freaking regulating mechanism is viable. 

with all due affection and respect for the both of you 

DankSwag


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

PH? Seriously it's not needed. Microbes dictate. I've been on vacation and got a lot of catching up.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Haven't used my PH meter since days of bottles and non organic media.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Building and maintaining a thriving Living Organic Soil is much like owning a pet. You need to keep it living with proper nutrition and inputs.

We never throw out our soil.

We never till our pots.

We do not measure PH

We keep the soil moving and grooving with insects and worms.

We use RAW amendments and make our own organic fertilizers. *Some grow their own amendments.

We never use commercial bagged soils as they are made by us with local sourced materials.

We keep our soil at a proper moisture level and use both living and dead mulch.

We use compost from plant and wood material. No animal products.

We release nutrients with the manipulation of microbes and in turn the soil feeds the plant.

This is our best definition and average explanation for the average gardener


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Happy to be back with a fresh start and new information.

Did anyone see the High Times June 2014 Living Soil write up?

Pretty cool imo.


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## hyroot (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Happy to be back with a fresh start and new information.
> 
> Did anyone see the High Times June 2014 Living Soil write up?
> 
> Pretty cool imo.



nope but will check it out... nice to have you back too


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

I've been really keeping my living soil mix simple with super high quality amendments. If you start out with proper compost you have already won half the battle. I've been testing many mixes on my mini organic farm.
Also testing a new alternative to fulpower on my tomatoes.

The mix with the basic kelp crab neem castings and rock dust works the best and is the most simple. 

I've been experiencing better results using mix lava sand and lava rock. Pumice is always nice too.


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## hyroot (May 11, 2014)

sub changed up his recipe. he added crab meal to it. on the new weed nerd ep


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

So headtreep, you don't add any liming agents to your soil? No calcium carbonate, oyster shell flour, etc? If you're following coot or gas's recipes, then you do .... so don't say PH doesn't matter.

The reason the LOS site went down the shitter is because you guys were too militant about everything. The whole "we don't do this, and we don't do that" is very rigid, and tends to turn people off. There is nothing wrong with picking up a bottle of pro-tekt or something at the hydro shop. Don't hate on people over it. If you want to do nothing but pick dandelions and nettle from your backyard then rock on, but leave the hollier-than-thou attitude at the door. It's ridiculous. This isn't LOS.org.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

The reason the LOS site went down the shitter is because you guys were too militant about everything. The whole "we don't do this, and we don't do that" is very rigid, and tends to turn people off. There is nothing wrong with picking up a bottle of pro-tekt or something at the hydro shop. Don't hate on people over it. If you want to do nothing but pick dandelions and nettle from your backyard then rock on, but leave the hollier-than-thou attitude at the door. It's ridiculous. This isn't LOS.org.[/QUOTE]

No sir I did about a year ago. I wanted to see if this was true (no liming agent) and been going strong ever since. Even when oyster flour was used I never PH my water. It's not even mentioned in the beginning of thread.

LOS site down the shitter? Not really man. I'm a mod there and there are many new members everyday. LOS has nothing to do with RIU.

Don't you think it's nice to use less?? Why the hell not would you want to save? I like to get my point across in a nice clear fashion. Pro-tekt is a silica product you buy in a hydro strore you can also buy agisil and make it yourself.

Your right this is RIU and I'm back now to keep all the BS out.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)




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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

*st0wandgrow* just trying to save you a hassle that's all. I use only coconut, aloe, SST, and ACT. ACT 2-3x per cycle if that. Teas, FPEs, and heavy duty foliars are a thing of the past.

What really turned on the lighbulb is when I really spent time away from the PC and actually observed nature. I don't PH my water on my farm why would I do it in my indoor? I use the same mix.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)




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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

No Till pot with basic inputs.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Another really nice one grown in the same mix. 

Save money and time. No Till and top dress.


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

Look, Im not trying to argue with you. IMO you, and everyone else interested in organics should be trying to turn people on to it, not turn them off with a condescending attitude. Not everyone has the time nor the means to be making everything. I work 50+ hours a week, I have a family of 5, and I enjoy traveling. If its easier for me to stop at the hydro shop for a bottle of pro-tekt than it is to be pissing around with horsetail trying to make it myself then I (nor anyone else) shouldn't be ridiculed for it. The tone of the LOS site turns people away. Offer alternatives to products, not ultimatums.

Myself and others were shamed for using coco coir in our mix at LOS. Like its blasphemy or something. Why is that? I really like using a 50/50 peat/coco coir mix. It's working great for me. Why is that so bad in your view? You guys act like peat is the only organic answer, and yet apparently don't consider the delicate ecosystems that are ruined when these peat bogs are stripped.

Personally I want to see more people make the switch to organics. If people choose to source everything from their back yard then more power to them. If people choose to pick up a couple items from the hydro store then that should be ok too.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Happy Mother's Day


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## CannaCole (May 11, 2014)

I buy the bagged synthetic organic soil, just so I can say I grow organic. Can't get more crunchy than me.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Look, Im not trying to argue with you. IMO you, and everyone else interested in organics should be trying to turn people on to it, not turn them off with a condescending attitude. Not everyone has the time nor the means to be making everything. I work 50+ hours a week, I have a family of 5, and I enjoy traveling. If its easier for me to stop at the hydro shop for a bottle of pro-tekt than it is to be pissing around with horsetail trying to make it myself then I (nor anyone else) shouldn't be ridiculed for it. The tone of the LOS site turns people away. Offer alternatives to products, not ultimatums.
> 
> Myself and others were shamed for using coco coir in our mix at LOS. Like its blasphemy or something. Why is that? I really like using a 50/50 peat/coco coir mix. It's working great for me. Why is that so bad in your view? You guys act like peat is the only organic answer, and yet apparently don't consider the delicate ecosystems that are ruined when these peat bogs are stripped.
> 
> Personally I want to see more people make the switch to organics. If people choose to source everything from their back yard then more power to them. If people choose to pick up a couple items from the hydro store then that should be ok too.



I don't think I mentioned anything to you about coco. I don't use it because my compost is plenty woody but I know others that do on the LOS site. Strange people got after you.

Agisil has nothing to do with horsetail and I don't use horsetail. If you did you can order it. I use what is cheap and available like any smart farmer would. No more no less. 

Edit: I will always advocate the use of peat because again it's cheap and effective compared to coco with low amendment value imo. Adding a little in the mix isn't going to hurt but why if you already have a great compost?


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

And just so I'm clear here, I never had a problem with you (or most members) at LOS. There were a few like gas and Arlo that were ridiculous though. My god, even Microbeman (one of the smartest cats out there) was run off the site by gas!


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> And just so I'm clear here, I never had a problem with you (or most members) at LOS. There were a few like gas and Arlo that were ridiculous though. My god, even Microbeman (one of the smartest cats out there) was run off the site by gas!


Cool deal. Let's have a fresh start and clean slate. I missed this site. MM has his own site FYI. 

I also go by *invocation *for those who don't know me on other forums.


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 11, 2014)

I would donate money to LOS and buy their products if they banned Arlo.

PH matters in any growing. Just so many ways to achieve it. I've learned good water helps lol.

HT...Going to rep the breeders and strains?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I would donate money to LOS and buy their products if they banned Arlo.
> 
> PH matters in any growing. Just so many ways to achieve it. I've learned good water helps lol.
> 
> HT...Going to rep the breeders and strains?


Good water does help. We use a small 1 stage filter that works great. I have used plenty of water sources including tap with castings and if I remember from hydro days the tap PH was over 7 almost 8. I haven't had issues or measured my PH since I started.

My soil acts as a buffer.

Edit: Fire OG, Irukandji, Plushberry, and Candy Chem are the cultivars pictured in earlier thread.


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## flower pharm (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Happy Mother's Day
> 
> View attachment 3150238


what a sweet child!


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

Headtreep, i like the leaf shine on your plants. I only started getting that shine after recycling and using teas. Do you foliar with teas too? Im a bit addicted to foliaring with teas, i admit, something about it kinda turns me on in a green way.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Headtreep, i like the leaf shine on your plants. I only started getting that shine after recycling and using teas. Do you foliar with teas too? Im a bit addicted to foliaring with teas, i admit, something about it kinda turns me on in a green way.



Exactly KLITE. The more cycles the more the plants reflect with outstanding help. I do use ACT foliars once a cycle or so but mostly IPM with neem, aloe, and silica. I foliar no more than once a week sometimes every other week.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Run 3 cycles in a No Till pot and get something like this:


Chimera GF X BB older pic 3rd Cycle ROLS NO Till soil. This particular run really sold me on the whole No Till deal.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Anyone using FPEs or Teas can achieve the same results with topdressings which is much simpler than broadcasting with water and having to bubble etc. I use whatever botanical and sprinkle a little worm castings and I'm done.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

I foliar every two days during the first 2 3 weeks of flower with either tea or kelp humic fulvic and tiny bit of molasses. During veg a lot of aloe and kelp o tea usually twice a week. Ive kept two mothers very! healthy without top dressing nor teas for about 2 months now with foliar every day or 2 
I really like foliar feeding and you can see the results a day after aplication. I really think giving a heavy foliar schedule at beggining of flower increases amount of budsites and size of those budsites. I probably go overboard though never seen a negative response from it only positive. I dont think i could give up on foliaring as often as i do. I also think the plant makes a more efficient use of what is absorbed through the leaves. 
I have grown in hydro with heavy foliar feeding during the first 3 weeks of flower and res water at 0.4 to 0.5 ec and plants did better than if res was at higher ec and no foliar. This was when i realized foliar can really be taken advantage of.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> Run 3 cycles in a No Till pot and get something like this:
> 
> 
> Chimera GF X BB older pic 3rd Cycle ROLS NO Till soil. This particular
> ...


W-O-W 

Award winning resin production right there!


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> I foliar every two days during the first 2 3 weeks of flower with either tea or kelp humic fulvic and tiny bit of molasses. During veg a lot of aloe and kelp o tea usually twice a week. Ive kept two mothers very! healthy without top dressing nor teas for about 2 months now with foliar every day or 2
> I really like foliar feeding and you can see the results a day after aplication. I really think giving a heavy foliar schedule at beggining of flower increases amount of budsites and size of those budsites. I probably go overboard though never seen a negative response from it only positive. I dont think i could give up on foliaring as often as i do. I also think the plant makes a more efficient use of what is absorbed through the leaves.
> I have grown in hydro with heavy foliar feeding during the first 3 weeks of flower and res water at 0.4 to 0.5 ec and plants did better than if res was at higher ec and no foliar. This was when i realized foliar can really be taken advantage of.


Klite I used to go heavy like you mentioned and even advocated it but imo it's working too hard on achieving the same goal. In fact I've had issues with certain picky cultivars is telling me yet again less is more. After a few cycles you things move long nicely without using "nutes".

It's truly hard get the npk thinking outta our minds. I struggled for a bit myself. 

That's why we all are making history the Ag world. DOING THINGS PEOPLE SAY IS IMPOSSIBLE.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Oberservation and simplicity.


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Anyone using FPEs or Teas can achieve the same results with topdressings which is much simpler than broadcasting with water and having to bubble etc. I use whatever botanical and sprinkle a little worm castings and I'm done.



I really prefer the top dress route too. It was getting to the point with ACT's, nutrient teas, SST's, etc that I seemed to constantly have something brewing. Top dress is so much easier and seems to be just as effective.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I really prefer the top dress route too. It was getting to the point with ACT's, nutrient teas, SST's, etc that I seemed to constantly have something brewing. Top dress is so much easier and seems to be just as effective.


Yeah man we aint too far apart from our inputs. Try a test pot of whatever with a basic soil and clean water. Run tests outside with veggies if you're concerned with space. Having an addiction to gardening I dedicated my little free time outside and was well worth it.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> I really prefer the top dress route too. It was getting to the point with ACT's, nutrient teas, SST's, etc that I seemed to constantly have something brewing. Top dress is so much easier and seems to be just as effective.


Isnt the point of teas to add beneficial microbes to the medium so that the plant can better uptake the nutrients in medium? I love top dressing too though i doubt id go a whole cycle without at least a couple of teas.
BTW if you guys are interested in witnessing the miracles of foliar feeding pop into my thread KLITE's huerto in gardening every now and then. I foliar my farm once or twice a week and the response is great!


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Isnt the point of teas to add beneficial microbes to the medium so that the plant can better uptake the nutrients in medium? I love top dressing too though i doubt id go a whole cycle without at least a couple of teas.
> BTW if you guys are interested in witnessing the miracles of foliar feeding pop into my thread KLITE's huerto in gardening every now and then. I foliar my farm once or twice a week and the response is great!


Klite I run an ACT with a new soil and in start of veg and flower. I have observed after 3 or 4 cycles the teas haven't made a noticeable difference. The only thing that really catches my attention still is SST and Coconut water. Hormones basically for rapid growth and fast finishing. Terps and purps!! Rock hard buds.

I'll check it out Klite. Still sorting through unread threads atm. 
Gogi OG


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Isnt the point of teas to add beneficial microbes to the medium so that the plant can better uptake the nutrients in medium? I love top dressing too though i doubt id go a whole cycle without at least a couple of teas.
> BTW if you guys are interested in witnessing the miracles of foliar feeding pop into my thread KLITE's huerto in gardening every now and then. I foliar my farm once or twice a week and the response is great!



I've found that since my worm bins are kicking out enough castings to amend my soil, and top dress when needed the soil is thoroughly inoculated. I think there comes a point of diminishing returns when it comes to microbe population. If you're using a good source of compost the soil should already be loaded with bene's. To me ACT's make the most sense if you're short on castings and want to stretch them out, or if you're using an inferior source of compost and want to jump start it with a tea.

I foliar spray once every couple weeks, but I've just been using silica, aloe, and tea tree oil. The plants seem to dig that. I don't think teas are bad per se. I just don't find them necessary any more. I usually wet my soil down with an ACT prior to letting it sit, and then maybe one more during veg and that's it. No more nutrient teas or SST's for me. The simple approach seems to be working just as well


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

Ive never tried a sprouted seed tea. Do you use rye or? Do you use it towards the end of flower? Do you dilute it or use it straight up?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've found that since my worm bins are kicking out enough castings to amend my soil, and top dress when needed the soil is thoroughly inoculated. I think there comes a point of diminishing returns when it comes to microbe population. If you're using a good source of compost the soil should already be loaded with bene's. To me ACT's make the most sense if you're short on castings and want to stretch them out, or if you're using an inferior source of compost and want to jump start it with a tea.
> 
> I foliar spray once every couple weeks, but I've just been using silica, aloe, and tea tree oil. The plants seem to dig that. I don't think teas are bad per se. I just don't find them necessary any more. I usually wet my soil down with an ACT prior to letting it sit, and then maybe one more during veg and that's it. No more nutrient teas or SST's for me. The simple approach seems to be working just as well


You seem to be advocating the same basic information as myself. Again we are practically the same. I'm sorry your experience at LOS sucked. I'm going to look into this.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

Really seems that after a few cycles the microbe poluation reaches peak then. Perhaps inculating at start of every grow will be more than enough, it seems?
Also what is LOS? sorry for ignorance


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

I was using alfalfa seeds and un-hulled barley seeds. Grass seeds of any variety are good as well. I think veg and early flower is the recommended approach


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Really seems that after a few cycles the microbe poluation reaches peak then. Perhaps inculating at start of every grow will be more than enough, it seems?
> Also what is LOS? sorry for ignorance


LivingOrganicSoil.org. It's a web site started by gascanastan. I got booted from it for daring to disagree with him (and his wife). 

Great source of info, but a little pretentious for my taste.


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 11, 2014)

I've also gone the simple VC is king route. Clean water and top dress to keep it simplest. 

SST and kelp are the only things I brew lately.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Ive never tried a sprouted seed tea. Do you use rye or? Do you use it towards the end of flower? Do you dilute it or use it straight up?


I got a sproutmo to make SST easy. Real easy and just like* st0wandgrow* I've busy and recovering still from injury so my time for bubbling is limited. I use a half cup in the device of whatever is cheap and organic which for me is mung beans. Once you get a sprout your ready to blend with a little water. I use that half cup of bean slurry an mix with 5 gal water and FULVIC acid. I don't even strain. Drench the root zones and then water the rest in. I've never had results with heavy enzyme teas. 

1x per week either SST or Coconut water. If you don't want to do the SST, try the coconut water every once in awhile especially in flower.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I've also gone the simple VC is king route. Clean water and top dress to keep it simplest.
> 
> SST and kelp are the only things I brew lately.



Ding Ding Ding.. Winner!


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> LivingOrganicSoil.org. It's a web site started by gascanastan. I got booted from it for daring to disagree with him (and his wife).
> 
> Great source of info, but a little pretentious for my taste.


Shit man getting booted off a forum for disagreeing with the owners? Did they let you take a piece of birthday cake at least? How childish! 



> SST and kelp are the only things I brew lately.


Im personally in love with Kelp and have been for a while.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> I got a sproutmo to make SST easy. Real easy and just like* st0wandgrow* I've busy and recovering still from injury so my time for bubbling is limited. I use a half cup in the device of whatever is cheap and organic which for me is mung beans. Once you get a sprout your ready to blend with a little water. I use that half cup of bean slurry an mix with 5 gal water and FULVIC acid. I don't even strain. Drench the root zones and then water the rest in. I've never had results with heavy enzyme teas.
> 
> 1x per week either SST or Coconut water. If you don't want to do the SST, try the coconut water every once in awhile especially in flower.


Ive used coconut water before but for the size of the grow its just not viable! 
I will be giving the seed tea a try, i thought a lot more seed would be needed. I like how youre using moong beans man, i make a good daal with them but how can they be cheaper than a grain? Ive got rye for my fungi, will try that. Can i brew 100 gallons at a time or will i turn out with beer? lol


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Shit man getting booted off a forum for disagreeing with the owners? Did they let you take a piece of birthday cake at least? How childish!
> 
> 
> 
> Im personally in love with Kelp and have been for a while.


It's really a great source of info with mostly cool peeps. I encourage you to check it out. Just mind your P's and Q's around the brass


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Ive used coconut water before but for the size of the grow its just not viable!
> I will be giving the seed tea a try, i thought a lot more seed would be needed. I like how youre using moong beans man, i make a good daal with them but how can they be cheaper than a grain? Ive got rye for my fungi, will try that. Can i brew 100 gallons at a time or will i turn out with beer? lol


Even a little goes a long way. I use half gal or so in my 100 gal containers followed with water and it makes a big difference. Grain for me would be going to a brewstore or ordering online atm. I do have some rye in my backyard hehe.. Mung beans are 1.99 lb but your'e right prob could get even cheaper with another sprouting seed source. I haven't went looking again.


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## DonPetro (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Run 3 cycles in a No Till pot and get something like this:
> 
> 
> Chimera GF X BB older pic 3rd Cycle ROLS NO Till soil. This particularView attachment 3150259 run really sold me on the whole No Till deal.


I've been looking at that offering from Chimera. That pic may have just sold me on it. Great job!


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> It's really a great source of info with mostly cool peeps. I encourage you to check it out. Just mind your P's and Q's around the brass


Yeah we need to change our public image. I don't like to hear this.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> I've been looking at that offering from Chimera. That pic may have just sold me on it. Great job!


Look around the web DonPetro and you will see the killer DANK these guys put out. It sold me from being a super soil enthusiast.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> Even a little goes a long way. I use half gal or so in my 100 gal containers followed with water and it makes a big difference. Grain for me would be going to a brewstore or ordering online atm. I do have some rye in my backyard hehe.. Mung beans are 1.99 lb but your'e right prob could get even cheaper with another sprouting seed source. I haven't went looking again.


Even a little of what sorry? the tea or the seeds? A quick question how do you remove seed from bottom of res to water so it doesnt go and clog up the pump? Cracking my head around that.
Have you tried sprouting the mung beans and eating them in a salad? Crazy healthy aparently...


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## hyroot (May 11, 2014)

@headtreep do you still use mung beans for sst? Unhulled barley is impossible to find locally... I've been using mung beans since you posted it a long time ago... they are the easiest to sprout.. Do you think the green shells produce any nitrogen once broken down? I know the nutritional info for the sprouts doesn't show any nitrogen. That probably does't count the shell or what ever you call it.. Its too damn difficult to separate unless I were to strain tea. ... thoughts?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

DonPetro. Older pic but impressive to those non believers.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Even a little of what sorry? the tea or the seeds? A quick question how do you remove seed from bottom of res to water so it doesnt go and clog up the pump? Cracking my head around that.
> Have you tried sprouting the mung beans and eating them in a salad? Crazy healthy aparently...


Coconut water or SST for that matter. A little can go a long away. It's worth it. I hand pour my tea or solutions right onto the root zone. The shells and extra matter sit on the topsoil and the worms process it. Works great. 

We eat all types of sprouts. Tasty! Very healthy. Whatever good for the human typically good for the plants I've noticed. I drink coconut and aloe water, eat neem, and take fulvic supplements.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

hyroot said:


> @headtreep do you still use mung beans for sst? Unhulled barley is impossible to find locally... I've been using mung beans since you posted it a long time ago... they are the easiest to sprout.. Do you think the green shells produce any nitrogen once broken down? I know the nutritional info for the sprouts doesn't show any nitrogen. That probably does't count the shell or what ever you call it.. Its too damn difficult to separate unless I were to strain tea. ... thoughts?


I'm still using those things because they are very easy as you mentioned. Easy to sprout and easy to source. Thats what ROLS and LOS is all about. Keep it simple with high quality ingredients. Just like the food we want to eat.

I think the shells are fine myself. My worms dispose of them quick and if anything the shells prob do have value but who knows how much. Don't strain I don't.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

HAHAHAHAHA youre radical man! You must have a healthy shine too

I get the aloe coconut and neem, but wouldnt think of the fulvic!


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

LOS.org does has reputation of _not_ putting up with BS misinformation so I would caution those who sign up but at the same time I would like to see another approach there. I will bring it up to the other members. Even I have been harsh to some people and would like to improve myself.


Edit: Bring your proof with your arguments.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

A quote from me: 



invocation;15894 said:


> Right on. I don't like rules but I believe in RESPECT and that comes with feeling out the culture in a community. Doesn't mean you have to follow what the "community" says but it's nice to at least have some fact before spouting some random garbage.
> 
> I love to share my ideas and get ideas from the community. It's fun to hang out and bs with my organic comrades.
> 
> ...


I found this quote on myself and taking some of it back, lol. Not constructive but at the same time when you repeat yourself constantly it gets old.


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

@st0wandgrow it seems you requested to be banned after looking back. I'm not going to say anymore but that's what I saw. 

This is all I have to say anymore about LOS and this is RIU Kiddies haha.....


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Compost is the heart of my soil.


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## DonPetro (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> DonPetro. Older pic but impressive to those non believers. View attachment 3150328


Dang! That stuff looks very tasty. Are those f1's?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Dang! That stuff looks very tasty. Are those f1's?


Yup.


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 11, 2014)

I have about 45 lbs of barley if anyone needs some  Your girls will go from perky Cs to big trunks and DDs.


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## DANKSWAG (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> PH? Seriously it's not needed. Microbes dictate. I've been on vacation and got a lot of catching up.


Headtreep,

Microbes dictate is correct and if someone without experience in building there soils and observing issues with plants the key is obviously what is going on in the life of the soil. An experienced grower like yourself with keen insight and knowledge on your inputs to your soil and the effect they will have on your soil life is your PH meter, you may not use an actual meter to confirm what you can analyze in your mind, that is your knowledge of inputs used and visual information you receive by examining the health of your plants. 

However not all growers are where you are at, they will need a PH meter to verify whether or not they have a PH problem. A PH meter is an essential tool for new and inexperienced growers for it will give them confidence they are building and amending their soils correctly. So it is good for assurance and building confidence and it helps me when mixing new soils with new recipe to confirm the soil is finished cooking, for we both know depending on the environment the soil is cooking in and what has been add the soil could be ready as little as two weeks or longer.

Bottom line I don't eat a pork roast until I have check it a temp probe to ensure the right temp has been reach, for I may not see any pink but that doesn't mean the shit that could make me sick isn't still there. I can be assured with a temp probe my pork roast is safe to eat. Just like I can be sure after cooking some soil that it is safe (PH ready) for my plants to eat from it.

So congratulations on becoming your own PH meter, but sure as your reading this the first sign of trouble that you have difficulty resolving or haven't seen before a PH meter will instantly confirm or deny if your are heading down the right track as you go about attempting to correct the issue. 
So I will say this again PH is not important to the experience grower who has found their grove using organic soil and their selection of amendments, for that is the nice thing about nature. She is consistent in her ways and doesn't change her mind about how things should be making her the perfect woman. And as you said you have observed her ways and are in tune with it. 

But for those testing her learning how all her goodness interacts with each other a PH meter is a great tool for confirming what is going on in the soil. 

DankSwag


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## Tjingles (May 11, 2014)

All of this wants me to go flip my compost and play some music for my worms...ill be rite back

I need a bigger grow space so I can install a cot and sleep next to my ladies


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## Tjingles (May 11, 2014)

Okay so I'm about to experiment with something and wanted you're opinions. Im going to partially ferment some strawberries mostly for the terpenes mabye a 4-5 day fermentation. After strainging i plan on going just water and strawberry ferment till the last week. All in. An attempt to increase brix and to hopefully take on a promiment berry flavor and aroma.. has anyone experimented with inputs towards the end a flower to somewhat alter the end result. I have three kings, blackjack and a super short amd bulky diesel going.


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> @st0wandgrow it seems you requested to be banned after looking back. I'm not going to say anymore but that's what I saw.
> 
> This is all I have to say anymore about LOS and this is RIU Kiddies haha.....


I sure did.... after being talked to like a 5 year old.

I don't recall asking to be reinstated, so????


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Headtreep,
> 
> Microbes dictate is correct and if someone without experience in building there soils and observing issues with plants the key is obviously what is going on in the life of the soil. An experienced grower like yourself with keen insight and knowledge on your inputs to your soil and the effect they will have on your soil life is your PH meter, you may not use an actual meter to confirm what you can analyze in your mind, that is your knowledge of inputs used and visual information you receive by examining the health of your plants.
> 
> ...



DankSwag, I have never used a PH meter when making my own soil period and even buying bags and amending. It's highly doubtful if people are having problems with PH if you using a clean water source. Most people don't have a clue what is happening to their plants and most of the time they are over doing something or over watering.

Where those dank pics since you seem to know what's up?


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

Why complicate the average person with the whole PH deal when dealing with a living soil? Have you ever read any of those books I have suggested? Prob not..


Edit: One Straw Revolution is a good start. Look up the chapter on PH meters.


----------



## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

Thought id post a few pics of UK cheese x OG Kush at mid week 3 of flower, another 6 or 7 to go.. I thought this lot was on 1st cycle recycling but i was wrong, that one is cooking, this is just a strongly ammended soil, a bit too heavy on the nitrogen to be honest. Shitty phone camera with sun glasses in front of the lense to avoid the black lines in pic, was gonna take them in the dark for you guys but didnt get there on time..

 

Tried to catch the shine...

 

A wee close up


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Thought id post a few pics of UK cheese x OG Kush at mid week 3 of flower, another 6 or 7 to go.. I thought this lot was on 1st cycle recycling but i was wrong, that one is cooking, this is just a strongly ammended soil, a bit too heavy on the nitrogen to be honest. Shitty phone camera with sun glasses in front of the lense to avoid the black lines in pic, was gonna take them in the dark for you guys but didnt get there on time..
> 
> View attachment 3150556
> 
> ...


Nice and healthy leaves man. Do you PH your water?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

1x per week neem IPM


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> Nice and healthy leaves man. Do you PH your water?


Kind of, let me explain. Water comes out the RO into tank and i leave it at 6.5, just because sometimes i get it out at 8 or even as low as 5. But then when preparing my water, adding acids mollasses or preparing tea i dont. Basically before i water i do not ph, but i do ph my res water before messing with it.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

I need to start using neem... Does it work just as pest protection? It must have Nitrogen no?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Kind of, let me explain. Water comes out the RO into tank and i leave it at 6.5, just because sometimes i get it out at 8 or even as low as 5. But then when preparing my water, adding acids mollasses or preparing tea i dont. Basically before i water i do not ph, but i do ph my res water before messing with it.


Try it without. Clean water no issues. Hell don't take my word for it just look at the other people that use the LOS method. Dank all the time.


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## DANKSWAG (May 11, 2014)

Looking good. Grown in recycled soil that I amended and cooked nothing added but water to achieve this at 37 days into flower. Yes I used a PH meter to make sure the cooking of this soil was complete before using. Unfortunately I am not in a space where I can fully implement ROLS, so I am mix, cook, use, recycle, amend, cook, use etc... for me ROLS is for larger containers, I use 2 gallon cloth containers. I would have to build a custom square pot using all the space and line with cloth to attempt a ROLS grow in such a confined space. It would be hard to move around established plants to reach in the back with such a set up. Having smaller containers I can pull them out of the space and attend to their care easier when pruning harvesting and such. Therefore I can't say I really comment on utilizing ROLS over traditional mix and cook for next cycle. I believe ROLS really needs larger containers 25 gallons or so to provide that buffering (microlife population) by the soil to keep the PH balanced when organic nutrients are added. Whereas you may get away with putting hot compost material into it and it won't throw of the PH significantly and if it does it is such a short duration that no real effect noticed. But try something like that in a 2 to 10 Gallon container, your gonna have to flush you soil as I once had to do with MY SHARONA when her soil PH went down. Anywise I am all on board with being frugal and hope someday I will have space to implement ROLS in a larger container where the biosphere can be viable on such a scale to absorb input readily.
 
DankSwag


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> Try it without. Clean water no issues. Hell don't take my word for it just look at the other people that use the LOS method. Dank all the time.


Should i not worry even if its at 8 or 5? I have read a wee bit about why ph isnt significant but it didnt sink in as well as id hoped. Thats why i just make sure my res water isnt at anything outrageous and end up with a lock out, or that just happens when dealing with the darned bottled nutes?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

*Neem*

*1) Antiviral*
Water extracted from the leaves has shown antiviral properties. The Neem Foundation implies that the neem leave’s extracts absorb viruses and prevent them from distributing to other regions of the body.

*2) Antibacterial*
Extracts from the neem oil along with the leaves reveal antibacterial and antiseptic benefits. The leaves may be used in paste form to treat many different skin conditions for example acne, rashes, psoriasis and eczema. The Neem Foundation reports early Indian practice was to bath in warm water with submerged neem leaves to heal skin conditions. Small scrapes and cuts can be treated with neem leaf extract to prevent bacterial disease and redness.

*3) Antifungal*
According to The Neem Foundation, compounds in the neem leaf are hazardous to fungus. The leaves contain two compounds, nimbidol and edunin, which have antifungal properties.

*4) Oral Health*
Both oils and aqueous extracts of neem comprise strong antiseptic compounds; these may destroy the bacteria that cause cavities, halitosis, and gum disease. Neem’s powerful antibacterial activity makes it a well-known ingredient in toothpaste, mouthwash, and oral health tonics.

*5) Reproductive Health*
Based on the Neem Foundation, neem is a fairly powerful birth control agent; it reduces fertility in both women and men without affecting sexual performance or libido. Neem also functions as a spermicide and could prevent sexually trasmitted infections when used as a vaginal suppository. Neem can treat excessive vaginal discharge, as well.

6) Arthritis
The Neem Foundation notes that neem is a well known, powerful botanical treatment for osteo-arthritis and rheumatoid arthritis. It might help provide long term treatment for individuals with chronic debilitating conditions like fibromyalgia.

*7) Skin Health*
In both pets and individuals, neem removes the little parasites that cause scabies. In Ayurveda practice, neem oil is used topically as a therapy for psoriasis and eczema.

* Insect Repellent*
Neem provides a nontoxic, environmentally friendly option to chemical insect repellents and flea treatments. It efficiently repels lice, fleas, ticks, mites, ants, and mosquitoes. It is recommended by the Neem Foundation for livestock, pets and people.

* Malaria*
Clinical tests haven’t yet established neem’s effectiveness as a therapy for malaria, but even so there is hope for it to be a future malaria treatment option.

*9) Cancer and Diabetes*
Because there is proof that its use may reduce the demand for insulin, neem has healing implications for diabetes. Reportedly, neem reduced the demand for insulin dosage by 30 to 50 percent in a single team of individuals. A recent research study, performed with rats and mice, demonstrated that the inclusion of a preparation from neem leaf added to an antigen helped create higher quantities of an immune antibody helpful for shielding against breast cancer.



The list goes on. Do some research it's out they. That's why I eat it in capsules like a vitamin.


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> I believe ROLS really needs larger containers 25 gallons or so to provide that buffering (microlife population) by the soil to keep the PH balanced when organic nutrients are added.


What you said Dankswag does make some sense to be... what do you base yourself on?
Lovely pic, strain?


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Should i not worry even if its at 8 or 5? I have read a wee bit about why ph isnt significant but it didnt sink in as well as id hoped. Thats why i just make sure my res water isnt at anything outrageous and end up with a lock out, or that just happens when dealing with the darned bottled nutes?


If you don't deal with bottles you should have no issues. Bottled nutes are something we do not promote with ROL or LOS. Who know what your'e really getting.

Think of it as process food when using nute bottles.


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

I would love for everyone to benefit from this. That's why we are so damn passionate because it WORKS!!! You have to try to believe. Hell use a plant outside if you don't want to test with cannabis.


----------



## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> If you don't deal with bottles you should have no issues. Bottled nutes are something we do not promote with ROL or LOS. Who know what your'e really getting.
> 
> Think of it as process food when using nute bottles.


Only bottled nute i ever use is fish emulsion for foliar on young plants. I even started getting my own humic and fulvic powders and diluting it myself. Fulvic powder smells like a barbacue sauce or something man, so weird! Anyone experience that??


----------



## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

> I would love for everyone to benefit from this. That's why we are so damn passionate because it WORKS!!! You have to try to believe. Hell use a plant outside if you don't want to test with cannabis.


I started thinking recycling soil would be the way to go when i realized the soil of my farm got better every year after fertelizing and composting at the end of autumn and turning then in march. I thought fuck it if its good for the farm its good for the weed!


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## DANKSWAG (May 11, 2014)

KLITE,

That would be BC, not sure what you mean what do I base myself on. I am all natural as can be and if I can get mother nature to do the work for me and I all have to do is ensure she is unimpeded and keep myself out of the way that is good. And if I can give her a natural boost I am all for that too. I make my own LAB and EWC. I am on board with ROLS I just think logically volume dictates that more soil is more life, more life is able to handle breaking down of matter introduced that could negatively impact life in that soil. If a dog pees in your yard your grass will turn yellow in that spot but not the entire yard the life around it will benefit the life in it will die. Unless it is distributed well. Thus when using human urine to feed plants you dilute it. In ROLS there is such much life going on in the soil by volume organic matter can be introduced not yet composted and be buffered by the soil life. 

So maybe there should be a URINE test for you all's ROLS pots, depending on how many CCs of urine you can pour into your soil at one time without burning your plants can provide a scale of 1-5 on how FREAKY your ROLS container is!

Another Shot of BC 37 days into flowering

DankSwag


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> I started thinking recycling soil would be the way to go when i realized the soil of my farm got better every year after fertelizing and composting at the end of autumn and turning then in march. I thought fuck it if its good for the farm its good for the weed!



Seriously man it's that simple. Soil gets better with time and even more effective when you no till and start a permaculture type setup in your pots which is what we basically do.


----------



## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

Shit well put! Permaculture type set up!
Also do you find you have less work, guesswork and stress growing like this? Also the amount of money saved on bags of soil is outrageous. Almost like quitting tobacco and making a kitty with the money spent on it type of thing. Well mixing soil is work, but if you have a cement mixer it becomes fun lol


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Shit well put! Permaculture type set up!
> Also do you find you have less work, guesswork and stress growing like this? Also the amount of money saved on bags of soil is outrageous. Almost like quitting tobacco and making a kitty with the money spent on it type of thing. Well mixing soil is work, but if you have a cement mixer it becomes fun lol


I have more free time than I know what to do with and this style of cultivation really suits someone with disabilities. I couldn't go back to all those transplants. 

No stress no guess it just flows.


----------



## DANKSWAG (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Why complicate the average person with the whole PH deal when dealing with a living soil? Have you ever read any of those books I have suggested? Prob not..
> 
> 
> Edit: One Straw Revolution is a good start. Look up the chapter on PH meters.


HeadTreep,

I've read Teaming with Microbes, Building Soils Naturally. Have not read One Straw Revolution, but will look it up, any other suggestions. I've been so busying mixing and blending soils for a grower $$! Busy getting my own organic farm business of the ground as well

Got a question do you know what this is?


  

DankSwag


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## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> HeadTreep,
> 
> I've read Teaming with Microbes, Building Soils Naturally. Have not read One Straw Revolution, but will look it up, any other suggestions. I've been so busying mixing and blending soils for a grower $$! Busy getting my own organic farm business of the ground as well
> 
> ...


One plant looks like comfrey man but pics blurred on my end.


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

These really helped my but some have old info like using blood and even PH might be mentioned. PH truly doesn't matter. I've tested some nasty water so I know. 700ppm+


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

I would love nothing more than anything to see all working together in the industry making a good living and also helping the environment and patients.


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2014)

One of the first batches of soil I made following fun times 3 category soil recipe went wrong. Not sure why, but it had me scratching my head not knowing what was up and how to fix it. Turns out I had lockout from my ph being at around 4.5. I bought a soil test probe, identified the problem, and moved on. I haven't had to use it since, but I don't understand why it's so frowned upon?


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (May 11, 2014)

headtreep said:


> These really helped my but some have old info like using blood and even PH might be mentioned. PH truly doesn't matter. I've tested some nasty water so I know. 700ppm+


You've grown in high PH/ppm water with no issues? I had early fade issues with 8.5 4-500 ppm water. Switched to RO water and haven't had any issues yet.


----------



## headtreep (May 11, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> You've grown in high PH/ppm water with no issues? I had early fade issues with 8.5 4-500 ppm water. Switched to RO water and haven't had any issues yet.



I water with a cheap carbon filter that just filters chlorine. These are automated, hand sprayed with hose. My wife when she was lazy cheated and used tap water with castings per recommendation by MM. 

I use the same mix and my conditions are harsh. No fade. Veggies like it "hot"


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## KLITE (May 11, 2014)

My last run of uk cheese x og kush, thats the soil that cooking now.

 

These are all different phenos of a cross i attempted between Agent orange and Tahoe OG, some peachy tones about. Still not got around to propperly testing, but these phenos are all agent dominant in bud structure exceptthe first one and just differnt tonalities of peachiness is best way to decribe it. Cant wait to have time to propperly test these...


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## Steelheader3430 (May 11, 2014)

I've had some phos def. on my current grow. Probably my fault for incorrect usage of teas. I'm going to add some http://www.ebay.com/itm/POTASH-5-lb-bag-SOLUTION-GRADE-0-0-50-Sulfate-of-Potash-Potassium-Sulphate-SOP-/170891226846?pt=Fertilizer_Soil_Amendments&hash=item27c9e92ede but don't know how much. My soil is this one,courtesy of Cann. my question is how much potash should I add to give myself some security from another k def. I've got about 12 cu ft.

Base mix: 

1/3 *high quality* EWC or compost (the quality of this humus source cannot be stressed enough. this is by far the most important aspect of the soil. use poor humus and this will be a nightmare) 
1/3 sphagnum peat
1/3 aeration (pumice, rice hulls, lava rock, etc.)

Per cuft of base:

4-5 cups rock dust mix (4x glacial, 1x bentonite, 1x powdered oyster shell, 1x basalt dust) AFAIK the glacial and basalt are relatively interchangeable ..just use whatever is local (this goes for just about anything in ROLS...local is often best). 

1/2 cup neem meal and/or karanja meal
1/2 cup crab shell meal
1/2 cup kelp meal


Thats it...


if you want to get fancy with it you can add a few other things such as:


Gypsum: I use 1/2cup per cuft...calcium and sulfur. good to add if you don't have the highest quality EWC.


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## DANKSWAG (May 12, 2014)

Hey Steelhead,

Curious about soil temp,, PH, water source, watering practices and soil moisture level. Do you have red stems? Curious where on plant you're seeing leaves with deficiencies like. Are you in veg or flower? 
You could apply powdered soft rock phosphate or fish bone meal to add phosphorus. 

DankSwag


----------



## headtreep (May 12, 2014)




----------



## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

Here is the deal with LOS or ROLS or whatever you would like to call it. 

That pic ^ was nothing more but those few things mentioned.


----------



## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

Man that's a nice tester ^


Ink has some solid gear.


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## Tjingles (May 12, 2014)

Has anyone used andesite before? I have 25lbs of that and some glacial. Thinking about mixing them and using that. The andesite is volcanic and suppose to have paramagnatism attributes. If that evem affects anything.

Thanks


----------



## KLITE (May 12, 2014)

A quick question for you guys

How often do you turn your compost pile, and do you water it with enzymes sometimes?


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## Kalyx (May 12, 2014)

Been awhile, heres some LOS eye candy...
Great to see this 'reality based' garden style thread has now passed up the veganics thread in replies… Wize UP! LOS ftw!
Blueberry 65 days, CC mix plus baseline humic and insect frass at 1/2 cup cu ft. Grown under 600w Blue.


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## Steelheader3430 (May 12, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Hey Steelhead,
> 
> Curious about soil temp,, PH, water source, watering practices and soil moisture level. Do you have red stems? Curious where on plant you're seeing leaves with deficiencies like. Are you in veg or flower?
> You could apply powdered soft rock phosphate or fish bone meal to add phosphorus.
> ...


Sorry Dank I meant potassium. I can't edit either.


----------



## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

Kalyx said:


> Been awhile, heres some LOS eye candy...View attachment 3150968
> Great to see this 'reality based' garden style thread has now passed up the veganics thread in views… Wize UP! LOS ftw!
> View attachment 3150972Blueberry 65 days, CC mix plus baseline humic and insect frass at 1/2 cup cu ft. Grown under 600w Blue.



Hey Kalyx are those you mothers day flowers, lol. I want that chunky bitch.


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## DonPetro (May 12, 2014)

Very nice, Kalyx! Who's the breeder of that beauty?


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## DANKSWAG (May 12, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Here is the deal with LOS or ROLS or whatever you would like to call it.
> 
> That pic ^ was nothing more but those few things mentioned.


Headtreep,

What size are your cloth containers?

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (May 12, 2014)

Kalyx,

Unless it is the strain, with all due respect it appears to me that your flowering leaves are showing signs of phosphorus deficiency, what do you think?

DankSwag


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## Kalyx (May 12, 2014)

Danks for the kind words!



headtreep said:


> Hey Kalyx are those you mothers day flowers, lol. I want that chunky bitch.


Kinda, the day before mothers day I fresh froze that plants trims. Good to see your holding it down over here HT!



DonPetro said:


> Very nice, Kalyx! Who's the breeder of that beauty?


I believe she is a selection of dj short's blueberry. This pheno has a little indica of a buzz for me personally. One dab and your eating another meal! Heres the two 'mothers day' bbs. Flo is the better cut in my garden right now for my personal preference.


Question for all: Why do you think these clone sisters senesced so differently?



DANKSWAG said:


> Kalyx,
> 
> Unless it is the strain, with all due respect it appears to me that your flowering leaves are showing signs of phosphorus deficiency, what do you think?
> 
> DankSwag


Yeah probably magnesium too bro!
NPK thinking will only slow you down in LOS. Get it alive and your microbe ecosystem will perfectly make available all your plant asks for! Humus ftw! Main thing to focus on IME is closing loops...

Seriously tho, All the shots were taken the day of (or 2 days before) harvest. Please let me know if you think I need P and why? As far as the colors of the leaves, this genetic is known to look very amazing array of fall purple hues at the end. They finished hot , 90 degrees here, and still turned that much during senescence. Heres the unders of the plant on the left:


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## KLITE (May 12, 2014)

I love the maroon tones on the leaves, beautiful. If pic is that late in flowering, ime, a small deficiency of a certain nutrient is almost expected unless you know strain and its needs really well and manage to have it finish with just a light fade of yellow on lower leaves. However i find that growing the living organic way theres never any leftover taste on the weed like with bottled organic nutes and flushing, anyone experience that too?


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (May 12, 2014)

What do ya'll think about air pots (Superoots) and microbes? What's better...air pruning or huge pots?


----------



## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> What do ya'll think about air pots (Superoots) and microbes? What's better...air pruning or huge pots?


I use smart pots or geopots personally. Didn't care for this air pots.


----------



## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

KLITE said:


> I love the maroon tones on the leaves, beautiful. If pic is that late in flowering, ime, a small deficiency of a certain nutrient is almost expected unless you know strain and its needs really well and manage to have it finish with just a light fade of yellow on lower leaves. However i find that growing the living organic way theres never any leftover taste on the weed like with bottled organic nutes and flushing, anyone experience that too?


Not sure about all that KLITE but in a Living Soil it's natural for a plant to start fading typically depending on cultivars from my observations. Senescence is the word in the plant world for "fade"

*Plant senescence* is the study of aging in plants. It is a heavily studied subject just as it is in the other kingdoms of life. Plants, just like other forms of organisms, seem to have both unintended and programmed aging. Leaf senescence is the cause of autumn leaf color in deciduous trees.


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## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

Fire OG, Irukandji, and Candy Chem in a living soil


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## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

Now I'll wait for the experts to pop out and tell me I'm doing something wrong or my NPK is off lol.


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 12, 2014)

Soil porn...where all the magic begins...whoever guesses ingredients gets a free invite to LOS forums!!!


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## DANKSWAG (May 12, 2014)

Kalyx said:


> Danks for the kind w
> 
> 
> Kinda, the day before mothers day I fresh froze that plants trims. Good to see your holding it down over here HT!
> ...


Klayx, 

Just asking what you thought, I am sure you don't need P personally, but, the color in the leaves size of buds suggest possibly, I really can't tell much else from the pic thus the question I posed to you what do you think?

DankSwag


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## KLITE (May 12, 2014)

How far in are those? Outrageous crystal production... and they definetly arent over 4 weeks right? that cannot be all attributed to genetics alone! Great work!


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 12, 2014)

KLITE said:


> How far in are those? Outrageous crystal production... and they definetly arent over 4 weeks right? that cannot be all attributed to genetics alone! Great work!


Genetics play AT LEAST 90% of the role


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## KLITE (May 12, 2014)

> Genetics play AT LEAST 90% of the roll


Pretty baffled, especially that candy chem


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## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

KLITE said:


> How far in are those? Outrageous crystal production... and they definetly arent over 4 weeks right? that cannot be all attributed to genetics alone! Great work!


Day 31. They were frosted at day 20.


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## headtreep (May 12, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Pretty baffled, especially that candy chem


Genetics is a huge part but a healthy soil also super important. Frosting and density gets better as you add natural hormones.


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## KLITE (May 12, 2014)

> Genetics is a huge part but a healthy soil also super important. Frosting and density gets better as you add natural hormones.


I dont get that frost til at least week 4. You guys have some ridiculous genetics across there, I have great respect for american stoners.

Sorry to bother again but i really think im fucking up my seed tea... I have no clue and im so lost and confused about how much seed to soak, how much soaked seed to brew per gallon of water and if it gets dilluted or not? 
I have like 2,5 liters of seed soaking thinking im putting it in a 100 gallon res and brewing it, and watering that to the plants. Saw a few confusing things about diluting it but i dont know anymore.
Seed tea should have a lot of those natural hormones right?


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## DonTesla (May 13, 2014)

KLITE said:


> ...
> Seed tea should have a lot of those natural hormones right?


AY MON, REESPECT!

JUS WONDERING IF ANYONE LIKES DA TRIACANTANOL GROWTH HORMONE EXCLUSIVE TO ALFALFA?? so the REV says in TLO

AND IF ANYONE HAS THOUGHTS ON INSECT FRASS??? So FAR VERY IMPRESSED WITH IT.. test results and pics at the dons organic garden. BIGUP DonPetro fi dat one


----------



## Abiqua (May 13, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> AY MON, REESPECT!
> 
> JUS WONDERING IF ANYONE LIKES DA TRIACANTANOL GROWTH HORMONE EXCLUSIVE TO ALFALFA?? so the REV says in TLO
> 
> AND IF ANYONE HAS THOUGHTS ON INSECT FRASS??? So FAR VERY IMPRESSED WITH IT.. test results and pics at the dons organic garden. BIGUP DonPetro fi dat one



http://www.ehydroponics.com/blog/triacontanol-increases-yields


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## headtreep (May 13, 2014)

Why use that ^ when we can just bubble alfalfa or top dress with it? Another worthless bottle.


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## Below66 (May 13, 2014)

Some people feel as though they aren't good cooks and don't eat in too much or at all, or they come to some conclusion like lack of time or effort as to why not to cook... 

Same concept for growing, some people just want a good tasting, quick yielding, easy to do process. Bottles offer that, just like going to your favorite restaurant that uses too many undesired oils, salts, and shady/dirty - procedures/practices.


A bottle that you know what's in is ok as long as you're ok with that, what boggles my mind is not having to list all the ingredients and secret "proprietary blends". 


You trust your ability and knowledge to go ahead and use a clean balance of ingredients correctly and make teas and very hot compost piles... that's nice... keep spreading that knowledge, but you don't have to consistently put down the other side, that's only gonna make it take longer to bring them over to the clean sustainable side.


Not all bottles in all situations are worthless, cheers.


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## headtreep (May 13, 2014)

Below66 said:


> Some people feel as though they aren't good cooks and don't eat in too much or at all, or they come to some conclusion like lack of time or effort as to why not to cook...
> 
> Same concept for growing, some people just want a good tasting, quick yielding, easy to do process. Bottles offer that, just like going to your favorite restaurant that uses too many undesired oils, salts, and shady/dirty - procedures/practices.
> 
> ...


Whatever you would like to believe. People looking for the QUICK solution always fail. Sprinkling some botanicals is much less labor intensive than measuring out a solution mixing it with water and disturbing your soil with a toxic mess of mystery ingredients.


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## headtreep (May 13, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Genetics play AT LEAST 90% of the role



RedCarpet I sometimes wonder that but I have some older genetics that I used to run in hydro and they looked ok but nothing like when we went to a living soil. True genetic expressions and way better yields. The plant really gets all it needs when you run this type system.


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## KLITE (May 13, 2014)

> Sorry to bother again but i really think im fucking up my seed tea... I have no clue and im so lost and confused about how much seed to soak, how much soaked seed to brew per gallon of water and if it gets dilluted or not?
> I have like 2,5 liters of seed soaking thinking im putting it in a 100 gallon res and brewing it, and watering that to the plants. Saw a few confusing things about diluting it but i dont know anymore.


Sorry to be such a nag guys but id REALLY appreciate a little input on the seed tea. I have had rye soaking for 2 days but still no germination. No clue how much to actually brew, nor if its mesant to be diluted. Cant find much information on it. Thanks in advance


----------



## KLITE (May 13, 2014)

> RedCarpet I sometimes wonder that but I have some older genetics that I used to run in hydro and they looked ok but nothing like when we went to a living soil. True genetic expressions and way better yields. The plant really gets all it needs when you run this type system.


I too have found that certain strains yield better this way than in hydro, that was were i got really baffled!


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## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

I will say this..... I am sold on the LOS philosophy. It has produced the best results from my garden after years of hydro and synthetics in soil. BUT, to say that it's an easier approach is not true. I put in twice as much time with my plants now than I ever did with measuring out a few teaspoons of nutrient solution from a bottle.

Also, I agree with below's post above. There is an arrogance with a lot of people (not all) that use this method, and it's really off putting. There is no need to talk to people like they're idiots. You guys didn't invent this. My granny was doing similar 80 years ago. I have bought pro-tekt, TM7, Ful-Power, various meals, etc from hydro shops and to listen to some of you guys you would think I just ran over a puppy on purpose.


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 13, 2014)

I've put great and 'freebie' genetics in living soil. Every bean has a different result do to genetics. Some girls are just freaks...even if you JUST keep her alive. 

I went to organics for the taste, reusability (cheaper), locality, pest prevention, and plant health. Not for yields...as that's more for the DWC IMO.


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 13, 2014)

Stow know lol


----------



## headtreep (May 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I will say this..... I am sold on the LOS philosophy. It has produced the best results from my garden after years of hydro and synthetics in soil. BUT, to say that it's an easier approach is not true. I put in twice as much time with my plants now than I ever did with measuring out a few teaspoons of nutrient solution from a bottle.
> 
> Also, I agree with below's post above. There is an arrogance with a lot of people (not all) that use this method, and it's really off putting. There is no need to talk to people like they're idiots. You guys didn't invent this. My granny was doing similar 80 years ago. I have bought pro-tekt, TM7, Ful-Power, various meals, etc from hydro shops and to listen to some of you guys you would think I just ran over a puppy on purpose.


Strange how my garden is on autopilot. Took a little bit of work to get there but it's never been more than a disabled person can handle. st0wandgrow perhaps you should simplify things. 

That's right most of these are are old techniques which I have stated many times before in my posts.


----------



## headtreep (May 13, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> I've put great and 'freebie' genetics in living soil. Every bean has a different result do to genetics. Some girls are just freaks...even if you JUST keep her alive.
> 
> I went to organics for the taste, reusability (cheaper), locality, pest prevention, and plant health. Not for yields...as that's more for the DWC IMO.


Idk man it seems plenty of the super soil fan boys are getting huge yields. DWC whatever..


----------



## DonTesla (May 13, 2014)

BIG UP, MON! So in BEESWAX and CUTICLE WAXES too.. very ARIE! Puppa like more miles, is Foliar spraying a alfafa tea bad for da gyals in flowah?


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## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

Amending your own soil, maintaining 3 worm bins and brewing teas alone is more labor intensive than any synthetic regiment you can find. And believe me, I have scaled things back a lot already. I used to have a tea brewing 24/7.

I am all ears though if there is some stuff that I can cut out


----------



## headtreep (May 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Amending your own soil, maintaining 3 worm bins and brewing teas alone is more labor intensive than any synthetic regiment you can find. And believe me, I have scaled things back a lot already. I used to have a tea brewing 24/7.
> 
> I am all ears though if there is some stuff that I can cut out



Stay tuned. I would like to be constructive here at RIU.


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## KLITE (May 13, 2014)

> Amending your own soil, maintaining 3 worm bins and brewing teas alone is more labor intensive than any synthetic regiment you can find. And believe me, I have scaled things back a lot already. I used to have a tea brewing 24/7.


Im pretty much always brewing a tea too lol. You really find taking care of your worm bins that labour intensive? I understand mixing up soil, advise you get a small cemenent mixer like mine.


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## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

headtreep said:


> Stay tuned. I would like to be constructive here at RIU.



That would be welcomed. The information is very good, and will be appreciated. I'd love to see more people doing this


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Im pretty much always brewing a tea too lol. You really find taking care of your worm bins that labour intensive? I understand mixing up soil, advise you get a small cemenent mixer like mine.


Taking care of the bins, no. Harvesting the bins, yes. IMO using your own castings is the key to this. You can add a million things to a soil but they aren't worth a lick if your source of compost is inferior so I'm willing to do it..... it's just monotonous and time consuming


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (May 13, 2014)

A cement mixer would be awesome! 

I'm trying to cut back on power usage and labor sooo maybe 4-5 teas a run, more simple top dressing, and an occasional foliar. Researching blumats ATM. 

The worm casting harvesting is a pain right now. Soon I'll try a melon piece in middle of tote to hopefully get em out of the way.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> A cement mixer would be awesome!
> 
> I'm trying to cut back on power usage and labor sooo maybe 4-5 teas a run, more simple top dressing, and an occasional foliar. Researching blumats ATM.
> 
> The worm casting harvesting is a pain right now. Soon I'll try a melon piece in middle of tote to hopefully get em out of the way.



I need to stop smoking weed before I harvest my bins. It's a double edged sword though because its boring as fuck digging through worm poop, and having a spliff makes it more fun... but when I'm stoned I get OCD about it and won't stop sifting until every last worm and cocoon has been found


----------



## KLITE (May 13, 2014)

I really have to second and triple what you said about home made earth worm castings. However I think i have found a place that does it just like one would do at home. It looks like compost not that black powder hydro shops call hummus lol. It looks no different to my home made one and i see no difference in results, thus far.
I dont know how big your bins are but i used to have a trench sort of thing and just take scoops out of it with a builders paddle(shit no clue the correct name, shovel?) and make piles on the floor and the worms go to the bottom of the pile and i scrape the top.
Im a bit sad that i have kinda lost my worm trench to ants, however pretty sure i have a mint source for it now if not better than my own since they get given the organic municipal aste from their village's council, more diverse food than i could provide i think.
Canb any of your help me with the post i made above about the seed tea? I think im fucking up the rye, smells a bit bitter now...


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

KLITE said:


> I really have to second and triple what you said about home made earth worm castings. However I think i have found a place that does it just like one would do at home. It looks like compost not that black powder hydro shops call hummus lol. It looks no different to my home made one and i see no difference in results, thus far.
> I dont know how big your bins are but i used to have a trench sort of thing and just take scoops out of it with a builders paddle(shit no clue the correct name, shovel?) and make piles on the floor and the worms go to the bottom of the pile and i scrape the top.
> Im a bit sad that i have kinda lost my worm trench to ants, however pretty sure i have a mint source for it now if not better than my own since they get given the organic municipal aste from their village's council, more diverse food than i could provide i think.
> Canb any of your help me with the post i made above about the seed tea? I think im fucking up the rye, smells a bit bitter now...



SST:

I was soaking my seeds over night, then discarding that water because its apparently full of growth inhibitors. I would then put the seeds in to paint straining bag inside of a 5 gallon bucket, with fresh water (a couple gallons) and bubble that until I got about 1/2 inch sprouts. I would then take those sprouted seeds, put them in a blender with a bit of water and make a purée. Then add the purée back in to the 5 gallon bucket and bubble for a few minutes until mixed. Strain the seed mess, and add to your watering can and apply.

There is a version 2.0 that people have been using that I never tried. I'll see if I can find the link in my notes.....


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

KLITE, give this a read. This is the concept behind it


http://byo.com/component/k2/item/1108-malting-your-own-techniques


----------



## KLITE (May 13, 2014)

> I was soaking my seeds over night, then discarding that water because its apparently full of growth inhibitors. I would then put the seeds in to paint straining bag inside of a 5 gallon bucket, with fresh water (a couple gallons) and bubble that until I got about 1/2 inch sprouts. I would then take those sprouted seeds, put them in a blender with a bit of water and make a purée. Then add the purée back in to the 5 gallon bucket and bubble for a few minutes until mixed. Strain the seed mess, and add to your watering can and apply.


Oh i didnt know i had to puree it! Im gonnna put an airstone in that bucket right now, i did change the water after first day. I thought i just had to bubble it after sprouting and using that water leaving the sprouts behind. Why would that not work?


----------



## KLITE (May 13, 2014)

> give this a read. This is the concept behind it


Its very good, i think i had the germination process wrong in my head.


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## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Oh i didnt know i had to puree it! Im gonnna put an airstone in that bucket right now, i did change the water after first day. I thought i just had to bubble it after sprouting and using that water leaving the sprouts behind. Why would that not work?



The seeds are a living organism and require oxygen to continue with the sprouting process. The link I posted above explains it way better than I can.


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## Chronikool (May 13, 2014)

Headtreep! Great to see you back around these partz. 'Wizardry sanz Bottle'.  Hope the health is holding.


----------



## hyroot (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Amending your own soil, maintaining 3 worm bins and brewing teas alone is more labor intensive than any synthetic regiment you can find. And believe me, I have scaled things back a lot already. I used to have a tea brewing 24/7.
> 
> I am all ears though if there is some stuff that I can cut out



not to argue but i disagree . I watch my buddies running around frantic, doing all kinds of tedious work. Changing big ass drum resi's every few days. cleaning tubing, pumps, resi's, spinners, drains, ph-ing everyday. taking apart hydro set up to rotate plants everyday. unless in a scrog. when flushing changing resi every day for 2 weeks.

sometimes they have to ph 2-4 times in one day too..

with my bins. setting up takes 20 min. harvesting vc takes 20-30 min with a screen sifter, I water every other 4 days. topdressing 3-4 times through out whole grow takes maybe 30 min each time. watering takes 30 min..

switch off between water and sst and occassional compost tea, kelp tea, botanical tea... Botanical teas not doing for a while. I just planted all new plants and seeds outside (not mj yet).

cleaning tote and buckets from tea's takes 2 min... spray with peroxide let sit then wipe with damp paper towel. then rinse with hot water...

I did hydro myself with film and aero for years before going all soil... imo hydro has 10 times more work. even soil with bottled nutes takes more time to feed plants. Measuring out multiple nutes and ph every watering takes a while.. then measuring run off ph...

making a soil mix is the most labor intensive though. I do that once every 6 months to a year. i mix 2 cu ft at a time then store it away in totes. Soooo much easier than mixing a giant pile. I have 20 gal totes ( $4.50 each at target)


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## st0wandgrow (May 14, 2014)

I can agree with you partially. Certain hydro methods can be a pain. I ran ebb and flow tables for a while and that was pretty hands on. You're off base on the soil/synthetics one though. How difficult is it to measure out a couple teaspoons of nutrients and dump it in to a 5 gallon bucket, then stick your ppm wand in there? Simple stupid. There is no way that is more work than organics.....making soil from scratch, harvesting worm bins, making compost teas, nutrient teas, seed teas, FPE's, etc. Its not even close Hy.


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## hyroot (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I can agree with you partially. Certain hydro methods can be a pain. I ran ebb and flow tables for a while and that was pretty hands on. You're off base on the soil/synthetics one though. How difficult is it to measure out a couple teaspoons of nutrients and dump it in to a 5 gallon bucket, then stick your ppm wand in there? Simple stupid. There is no way that is more work than organics.....making soil from scratch, harvesting worm bins, making compost teas, nutrient teas, seed teas, FPE's, etc. Its not even close Hy.


making a compost tea. Hmmm add molasses, a couple handfuls of wormcastings and compost, some kelp meal. Less than 2 min. Your not blowing bubbles with a straw the whole time. The pump or brewer does it for you. Measuring multiple nutes then adding ph up or down and measuring ph takes 20 min.. Hmm you right about not even close but backwards. You measure bottled nutes and ph every watering. So add up all that time. It will definitely exceed Los methods. Make an sst 5- 10 min total. Harvest a bin - 20 - 30 min... Compost tea 2 min , botanical tea 2 min. Foliar - 10 min of straining....


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## st0wandgrow (May 14, 2014)

OK Arlo


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## Below66 (May 14, 2014)

Hyroot, I'm currently helping my cousin out and he uses bottles, almost exclusively. I unscrew the couple caps and throw it into a measuring cup, do it with about 3-7 different bottles, then it takes me about 1 or 2 tries to lower the pH, You're right, about 20 minutes to setup and 20 minutes to water them all(depending how many you got running). But that's all I do... Take off dead/yellow leaves, rotate, foliar and that feeding/watering regimen. Let me repeat that again, that's *ALL I DO* for these plants. Zilch, nada, finito.

Really sit back and let that sink in for a second, now think about all the love you've show your plants and all the things you've gone through to make them happy and time taken to figure out what can make them happier.

It doesn't even compare, I'm trying my hardest to make him switch to a more organic method, and he refuses, there's less dead/yellow leaves involved, less pests, healthier plants, less money once you got everything rolling(bins, tea brewers), ect..

But don't kid yourself... one way is akin to pumping an IV full of chemicals from a doctor into a person, the other is like slowly nourishing growing toddlers...

To people like him, it's all about money, yield, and ease of use, in that order. To people like you, it's more about quality and quality of life. You grow medicine, he grows money trees. People like you fight pest organically, most people using full bottle programs tend to lean towards the avid and pyrethrin bombs.

It's 2 different worlds my man, apples and oranges. I took such a liking to doing this which is why I'm trying to get some bins and brewers running, it's the right way to do it, but it's definitely not the easier way to do it.


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## hyroot (May 14, 2014)

Below66 said:


> Hyroot, I'm currently helping my cousin out and he uses bottles, almost exclusively. I unscrew the couple caps and throw it into a measuring cup, do it with about 3-7 different bottles, then it takes me about 1 or 2 tries to lower the pH, You're right, about 20 minutes to setup and 20 minutes to water them all(depending how many you got running). But that's all I do... Take off dead/yellow leaves, rotate, foliar and that feeding/watering regimen. Let me repeat that again, that's *ALL I DO* for these plants. Zilch, nada, finito.
> 
> Really sit back and let that sink in for a second, now think about all the love you've show your plants and all the things you've gone through to make them happy and time taken to figure out what can make them happier.
> 
> ...



you can make money trees with organics too.. Add up that 20 min every watering that you don't do with organics...an extra hour of work a week. teas are once a week and take 5 min at most.. the rest is just plain water..


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## genuity (May 14, 2014)

i run both organic & "bottles"...and with both im around $200-$250/lb to produce(veg/flower,nutes,soil,lights,ac,venting..ect)
i see some organic heads use way to damn much stuff,as i see bottle heads use to damn much stuff.

people say,with bottles you are trying to give the plant what it needs,well that's the same with organics..we put in the soil,what we think the plant will want..
the plant is still gonna only take what it wants,no matter what form it comes in.


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## Below66 (May 14, 2014)

hyroot said:


> you can make money trees with organics too.. Add up that 20 min every watering that you don't do with organics...an extra hour of work a week. teas are once a week and take 5 min at most.. the rest is just plain water..


What about the cleaning up after the teas? the taking care of compost and worm bins? sourcing ingredients that are a bit harder to find? ect...

I've never done organics so IDK maybe you're right, you're definitely making me want to jump ship faster


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## hyroot (May 14, 2014)

Below66 said:


> What about the cleaning up after the teas? the taking care of compost and worm bins? sourcing ingredients that are a bit harder to find? ect...
> 
> I've never done organics so IDK maybe you're right, you're definitely making me want to jump ship faster


you don't rally need to clean up. Organics is dirty lol.. I spray buckets and totes with peroxide and let sit then wipe with a paper towel then rinse with hot water. Sourcing. I'm between bins. Yesterday I went to a local landscaping company down the street dropped $50 on a few bags of castings, compost and rock dust. Then went to the hydro shop and dropped $40 on crab meal, kelp meal and neem meal. Al ready have recycled soil mixed with new coco, peat, and perlite. mixing it all today. Then I grow lavender, rosemary, cloves, peppermint, aloe Vera. I make botanical teas with those and foliars. No room to grow nettle and comfrey
I also grow a bunch of other seasoning herbs I use for cooking and veggies too. Not very difficult. I have 1 large bin. If had more bins of the same size. I wouldn't need to buy castings and compost. The ones I do buy are pretty good and cheap.


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## st0wandgrow (May 14, 2014)

hyroot said:


> you can make money trees with organics too.. Add up that 20 min every watering that you don't do with organics...an extra hour of work a week. teas are once a week and take 5 min at most.. the rest is just plain water..


EH? I water the exact same amount of times every week in organics as I did with synthetics. The plants don't require any less water from one method to the other. The only difference is that instead of measuring out a few teaspoons of synthetic nutrients, I'm adding a compost tea, or a nutrient tea, or aloe, or coconut water, etc. Where are you getting this huge time savings from?? Aside from watering with nutrient solutions, what is it that was consuming so much of your time with synthetics?

Again, I agree with below. Growing organically is the right way, and best way to do it IMO. But to say that it's easier, or less time consuming is disingenuous.


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## Below66 (May 14, 2014)

Can't hate, hyroot sure has a way of making it seem easy and not too far off from bottles, lol.

Btw what do you mean you are between bins? As in you only have 1 bin for compost and 1 for worms and they ran out or...?


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## st0wandgrow (May 14, 2014)

Below, if you're going to jump in to organics you really need to set up a few worm bins. I started with only one, and did not anticipate how long it would take for castings to be ready, and how much castings I would ultimately need. I run a perpetual cycle where I harvest every 3 weeks. 1 bin didn't come close to meeting my needs for amending new batches of soil, top dressing buckets, and making ACT's. 3 bins suits my needs perfectly. My advice would be to buy more worms than you'll think you need, and set up several bins that are staggered so that you always have castings ready. Worms are very cheap to buy. Having to buy bags of ewc gets expensive, and they are inferior to what you can produce at home. The source of compost that you use is your biggest limiting factor.

Aside from that, I would be skeptical of a lot of the other things that you see discussed. My opinion only, but I don't think some of the stuff is necessary. Brewing nutrient teas, SST's, FPE's, coconut water, aloe, Fulvic acid, Humic acid, TM7 etc. Not saying that these don't help, but I didn't see any visible signs that the end result is improved upon beyond just using water. If your soil was amended with a good assortment of organic inputs, and you inoculated the soil with *quality* compost and/or an ACT or two then you will get fantastic results. The only product that I have come across that I can clearly see an added benefit from is silica. Aside from that I'm not sold on all of the other goodies.

edit: A top dress at some point in early flower seems to be beneficial as well.


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## st0wandgrow (May 14, 2014)

I think all of this tinkering is a hold over from the days of growing with bottles. We all got so accustomed to adding a teaspoon of this, and a dash of that that we feel we have to constantly be manipulating things for the plant to thrive. In organics we have to learn to let go. The plant is in charge, and the microbes in the soil do the work for us. Create a hospitable environment for the microbes, and you should be able to set it on cruise control.


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## foreverflyhi (May 14, 2014)

Just caught up on a couple pages. Mi dos centavos?

Organics is heavy work to a certain extent. But once the permacultre garden is sustained, then maintence becomes minimal.

Bottles? Sure one or two might be needed, i admit, i buy coco water and mollasses.. fulvic?eh once ina blue moon. lol

But synthetic bottles from hydro capitalst companies, fuck that, And the ppl (followers)who use them, i say, let them use it and grow inferior unhealthy herb, pollute our water destroy the ecology, its only our youth that will suffer. Ha

I keep my footprint to a minimum., my worms, my compost bins, my weeds, herbs and soil does the rest,
oh and as for genetics, i would argue tht I can grow shwag hermie seeds danker THEN "elite strains" grown in hydro ebb dwc flood blah blah synthetic boo boo

Organic terrorist is another mans freedom fighter


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## DANKSWAG (May 14, 2014)

headtreep said:


> I use smart pots or geopots personally. Didn't care for this air pots.


What size?

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (May 14, 2014)

headtreep said:


> RedCarpet I sometimes wonder that but I have some older genetics that I used to run in hydro and they looked ok but nothing like when we went to a living soil. True genetic expressions and way better yields. The plant really gets all it needs when you run this type system.


I agree with headtreep, though first one must start with good genes, however if you put good genes into a poor environment, the complete expression of the genes will not be present to the degree of the health of the environment the genes finds themselves in. So to use a numerical value such as percentage to express the wholeness of the product from start to finish is futile. I think it is best said genetics plays 100% of ability to produce its unique wholeness (attributes), whereas environment plays 100% in ability to produce its ability to reach its full potential.

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Amending your own soil, maintaining 3 worm bins and brewing teas alone is more labor intensive than any synthetic regiment you can find. And believe me, I have scaled things back a lot already. I used to have a tea brewing 24/7.
> 
> I am all ears though if there is some stuff that I can cut out


mee too!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Taking care of the bins, no. Harvesting the bins, yes. IMO using your own castings is the key to this. You can add a million things to a soil but they aren't worth a lick if your source of compost is inferior so I'm willing to do it..... it's just monotonous and time consuming


That is why my organic farm business will be making worm castings on large scale and I hope to sell a cubic foot for less than Roots Organic. 
I plan on offering various base compost for bedding and food sources to meet some finicky customers. So freak that organic steer manure, the though of fish compost as a base is more appealing, yet who knows what the freaking fish are eating out there? LMAO with some of the purest our here, everything is tainted to some degree somehow, it is the WORMS my friends that break it down to basic nutrient elements. Worms can take medical bio waste, shit you would not touch unless suited up from biological warfare, won't hurt those worms, they eat it up and shit it out rendered harmless and useful! 

Bottom line if comes out a worms ass in the end it doesn't matter where it came from! And that you can take to the soil bank!

DankSwag


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## DANKSWAG (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I need to stop smoking weed before I harvest my bins. It's a double edged sword though because its boring as fuck digging through worm poop, and having a spliff makes it more fun... but when I'm stoned I get OCD about it and won't stop sifting until every last worm and cocoon has been found


Been there and got to do that again today, I've got like freaking 15 square feet of worm bins going on right now just at home. 
I am up to my elbows in worm poo. 

DankSwag


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## Below66 (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Below, if you're going to jump in to organics you really need to set up a few worm bins. I started with only one, and did not anticipate how long it would take for castings to be ready, and how much castings I would ultimately need. I run a perpetual cycle where I harvest every 3 weeks. 1 bin didn't come close to meeting my needs for amending new batches of soil, top dressing buckets, and making ACT's. 3 bins suits my needs perfectly. My advice would be to buy more worms than you'll think you need, and set up several bins that are staggered so that you always have castings ready. Worms are very cheap to buy. Having to buy bags of ewc gets expensive, and they are inferior to what you can produce at home. The source of compost that you use is your biggest limiting factor.
> 
> Aside from that, I would be skeptical of a lot of the other things that you see discussed. My opinion only, but I don't think some of the stuff is necessary. Brewing nutrient teas, SST's, FPE's, coconut water, aloe, Fulvic acid, Humic acid, TM7 etc. Not saying that these don't help, but I didn't see any visible signs that the end result is improved upon beyond just using water. If your soil was amended with a good assortment of organic inputs, and you inoculated the soil with *quality* compost and/or an ACT or two then you will get fantastic results. The only product that I have come across that I can clearly see an added benefit from is silica. Aside from that I'm not sold on all of the other goodies.
> 
> edit: A top dress at some point in early flower seems to be beneficial as well.


Thanks for this, might be a bit controversial to say here but it helped me re-realize all I need are the quality foundations pieces to kick start this off.

But I still believe most of that stuff you listed is good stuff for the plant


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## Chronikool (May 14, 2014)

HAHAHAHA....an argument on which takes longer to prepare and work with...Hydro or Organix? 

REALLY...!?


----------



## Below66 (May 14, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> HAHAHAHA....an argument on which takes longer to prepare and work with...bottled or resourced?
> 
> REALLY...!?


FTFY


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## Chronikool (May 14, 2014)

Below66 said:


> FTFY


I had to look up what that meant....  

my post wasnt really directed at you bruv....more the 2 olde' organic headz trying to get to the rest home kitchen 1st on their walkers...


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## Below66 (May 14, 2014)

lol


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 14, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> I had to look up what that meant....


Stumped me too. What does ROLS stand for.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 14, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> I had to look up what that meant....
> 
> my post wasnt really directed at you bruv....more the 2 olde' organic headz trying to get to the rest home kitchen 1st on their walkers...



Well, fill us in kool. 

Surely you have something more than that to add to the conversation ....


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Well, fill us in kool.
> 
> Surely you have something more than that to add to the conversation ....


His name is tool...not kool 

I don't mind mixing and amending. Good exercise. I need a worm casting sifter like this!


----------



## Chronikool (May 14, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Stumped me too. What does ROLS stand for.


I aint your urban dictoionary....! havent seen you over in he party cup comp lately Red....im the only one hassle-ling (hustling?) Hyroot now....  




st0wandgrow said:


> Well, fill us in kool.
> 
> Surely you have something more than that to add to the conversation ....


FTFY - 'Fixed that for you' or 'Fuck this fuck you'.....hmmmmmm

Oh something for the conversation...ummmm....'GO synthetic Bottled nutrients for time saving prowess and better bigger buds! '


----------



## Below66 (May 14, 2014)

I've always hated marketing and advertising, I thought Bill Hicks would be the one to make me realize that the most, but no... most of these companies are devils in disguise.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (May 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> OK Arlo


If they only knew LMFAO!!! 

Let's have a tag team 'TLC' match between us and hy/chronotool


----------



## Chronikool (May 14, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> If they only knew LMFAO!!!
> 
> Let's have a tag team 'TLC' match between us and hy/chronotool


But 'Rootie is the worst outfielder ever...! All he does is pick dandelions and find wormz.....EYES ON THE BALL 'ROOTIE...!


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## Mohican (May 14, 2014)

I am digging this machine:






Cheers,
Mo


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 14, 2014)

I wonder if these concoctions lesson the worm's life and sex drive...or just makes them shit themselves.


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## Chronikool (May 14, 2014)

Thats cool....i like how he references that other machines 'cause back breaking damage'....must be a big problem in the vermicasting world...


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## KLITE (May 14, 2014)

> I did hydro myself with film and aero for years before going all soil... imo hydro has 10 times more work. even soil with bottled nutes takes more time to feed plants. Measuring out multiple nutes and ph every watering takes a while.. then measuring run off ph...


Man I was litterally about to starty slasdhing my veigns if i had to spend another 2 hourzs phing all the fucking reservoirs. What you said on that post i bang on. Hydro is sooooo but so boring its making my tits hurt just thinking about it.

Fucking cool hummus/worm machine. I just got delivered today a quarter ton of hummus, on the note.

Also I see some of you guys rocking LEDs. You happy with them? Better spectrum and good enough light penetration? Happy with yield in comparison to HID? Would be nice to hear what yous think.

My first SST is kind a on trackish. I think rye is a bitch to sprout, though getting that white tip begginng to shoot so pretty happy, thanks again Stow.

Keep it livin' you guys!


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## hyroot (May 14, 2014)

Below66 said:


> Can't hate, hyroot sure has a way of making it seem easy and not too far off from bottles, lol.
> 
> Btw what do you mean you are between bins? As in you only have 1 bin for compost and 1 for worms and they ran out or...?


I harvested my bin and used up all of it for my batch currently in flower. I'm making a new soil mix. Plus a little extra ewc and compost for teas and more top dressing. My bin now I restarted a few weeks ago. So it will be at least a month til its ready.. I thought of adding another level. I also am not sure if the worms will take to it.


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## Mohican (May 14, 2014)

Just fed my worms. Not sure they are happy about the heat. I may just let them go in the garden.


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## foreverflyhi (May 14, 2014)

In reguards to LED, 

My quality in herb is by far danker then hid herb, my current led set up i wouldcompare to 600w

Check here to see a 1000w hid comparison with a 600w led
https://www.rollitup.org/t/apache-at600-led-vs-1000w-hps-blue-dream-grow.813412/page-31#post-10499200


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## DonTesla (May 14, 2014)

AY BIG MO, MON!
COOL RUNNIN MACHINE,
LOVE DAT !


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## Mohican (May 14, 2014)

It's cheap too:

*Only $2495.00 – To order Call 812-837-9607*
*Business hours: Monday through Sunday 08:00AM – 10:00PM*

The Worm Shi*fter is made in the USA and available only from Brockwood Farm. We accept all major credit cards. Allow 2 days from order acceptance to shipment in the Continental United States.* Two Year Warranty on Parts & Labor*.

WTF? I can build that for less than $300 in parts and my labor is free! Just what I need - another project!


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## DANKSWAG (May 14, 2014)

Mohican said:


> It's cheap too:
> 
> *Only $2495.00 – To order Call 812-837-9607*
> *Business hours: Monday through Sunday 08:00AM – 10:00PM*
> ...


Exactly what I was thinking, a few pieces of lumber, a couple hinges, some 1/8 screen, some 1/4 screen a slight downward angle and shake shake, shake shake, shake your worms shake your worms. yeah shake shake shake shake shake shake, shake your worms shake your worms, ah shake shake shake!






DankSwag


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## Pattahabi (May 15, 2014)

Cool thread. I hear if you soak your undies in Eagle20 you can get vigor like Ron Jeremy in 1985.

Cascadian Frost



Peace!
P-


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 15, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Just fed my worms. Not sure they are happy about the heat. I may just let them go in the garden.


Some'll try to squirm through top of bin, and most will turn to mush. Very unpleasant smell.


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## DANKSWAG (May 15, 2014)

ROLS ?

Can I eat the tops of my plants when I pinch them off to top?
After watching this BIM video http://vimeo.com/m/16647170, realizing I need to source my veggies better for the produce in our markets suck as far as mineral content goes. So I am trying to get a little bit more high mineral content in the greens in my diet. I just don't want to violate some ROL code I am unaware of that may put more importance feeding my soil then feeding my body...



LMFAO
Couldn't help myself
DankSwag


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## KLITE (May 16, 2014)

Hey guys

Rye didnt sprout, ended up with a sour smelling mess. Soaked some of my chickens wheat last night, rinsed etc this morning and put it bubbling in a bucket. By evening time all seeds are starting to show the white tip. Should be good for pureeing in a day or too. Quite happy hehe
Can i freeze the excess sprout puree in portions? If so, does it lose some properties? If so, can it be accurately(kind of) quantified?
Thanks for guidance!

Keep it livin' you guys!


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## st0wandgrow (May 16, 2014)

Others that do SST's freeze the remains in an ice cube tray. Just measure how much you have which makes x amount of cubes and plunk the appropriate amount of cubes in to your bucket of warmish water when you want to use it again.


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## KLITE (May 16, 2014)

> Others that do SST's freeze the remains in an ice cube tray. Just measure how much you have which makes x amount of cubes and plunk the appropriate amount of cubes in to your bucket of warmish water when you want to use it again.


Thans stow

Can you comment on property loss with freezing? Im trying to look online at what temperatures enzymes and hormones stay active but its proving difficult.


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## st0wandgrow (May 17, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Thans stow
> 
> Can you comment on property loss with freezing? Im trying to look online at what temperatures enzymes and hormones stay active but its proving difficult.



From what I have gathered you will be fine. Enzymes are not living organisms and are effective in a broad range of temperatures, so I'm sure that adding the frozen cubes to warm water will do the trick.


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## KLITE (May 17, 2014)

Thanks again

Im also curious when do you guys stop molasseing the water in flower? Ive always stopped 2 weeks before harvest though i dont think thered be any harm in giving it right til the end and perhaps give the flowers an extra push weightwise?


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## hyroot (May 17, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Thanks again
> 
> Im also curious when do you guys stop molasseing the water in flower? Ive always stopped 2 weeks before harvest though i dont think thered be any harm in giving it right til the end and perhaps give the flowers an extra push weightwise?



i use molasses water around day 25, day 40 and the last few waterings..


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## KLITE (May 17, 2014)

Thanks Hyroot, i start molasseing around the same time as you every seond watering. I was thinking of trying until the very last watering.

On another note, my country doesnt sell alfalfa meal anywhere, In the past ive ordered it from abroad howver i have seen huge bails of the stuff for sale at a ridiculous price like 5 euro for a 30 kg bail. Though its not ground to a meal. Would you attempt to mealify it? or the hassle would be too big and outcome not fine enough?


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## st0wandgrow (May 17, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Thanks again
> 
> Im also curious when do you guys stop molasseing the water in flower? Ive always stopped 2 weeks before harvest though i dont think thered be any harm in giving it right til the end and perhaps give the flowers an extra push weightwise?



IMO you can use whatever you wish right up until you chop. Particularly if you're recycling the soil. Whatever you're using (nutrient teas, fish hydrolysate, etc) will be tied up in your soil and available to the next plant you plunk in there. I don't really buy the theory that its beneficial to stop feeding (flushing) the plant weeks before harvest.


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## st0wandgrow (May 17, 2014)

KLITE said:


> Thanks Hyroot, i start molasseing around the same time as you every seond watering. I was thinking of trying until the very last watering.
> 
> On another note, my country doesnt sell alfalfa meal anywhere, In the past ive ordered it from abroad howver i have seen huge bails of the stuff for sale at a ridiculous price like 5 euro for a 30 kg bail. Though its not ground to a meal. Would you attempt to mealify it? or the hassle would be too big and outcome not fine enough?



What about using it as a mulch? I've seen others do it. Not sure how much of it, or how quickly it would become bio available though??


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## KLITE (May 17, 2014)

Hyroot, killer avatar btw.


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## KLITE (May 17, 2014)

> IMO you can use whatever you wish right up until you chop. Particularly if you're recycling the soil. Whatever you're using (nutrient teas, fish hydrolysate, etc) will be tied up in your soil and available to the next plant you plunk in there. I don't really buy the theory that its beneficial to stop feeding (flushing) the plant weeks before harvest.


To be honest since switching to organics i started doing only 1 week plain water at the end instead of 2 or 3. I get where you are coming from and it makes sense, since in this type of system plants fetches what it needs as it needs it and no salts nor chemicals are present in the medium hence there is nothing harmful the plant could retain in its plant material. Suppose near the end of its life plant stops 'feeding' on its own the last days? I remember headtreep mentioning senescence, the study of discoluring near end of life, i need to look more into that. Kinda trippy. 



> What about using it as a mulch? I've seen others do it. Not sure how much of it, or how quickly it would become bio available though??


I really like adding alfalfa to the soil. feel it gives a lasting nitrogen source and i like the consistency it gives to the soil too. Im one of those guys who youd have to threaten to death top change my mulch, i just love old weed leaves for mulch, plus i think a plants own leafy material would be 'pre tought' (by the creator or whomever) to be the best mulch, im really high though an i like how it looks with the old leaves.
Im really thinking that without some kind of equipment it be either impossible ir incredibly time consuming to mealify the bulk bail alfalfa...


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## DANKSWAG (May 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> What about using it as a mulch? I've seen others do it. Not sure how much of it, or how quickly it would become bio available though??


I believe if you got a bail of alfalfa you would want to break some off the bail, keep the bail covered and dry. Take the section you broke of wet it good on top of some soil and expose it to air and warm keep covered lightly to increase heat (decomposition) once quickly composted this way you can use that material to top dress and water with. 

At least you will get diverse beneficial microbes in the alfalfa compost so you will get the goodness of the plant in a ready state as compost that is loaded with microbes that should be a great benefit as a top dress.

Anyone else got some ideas on processing raw alfalfa to use for tea or soil amendments?

DankSwag


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## foreverflyhi (May 18, 2014)

Keep it ROLS


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 18, 2014)

Look what I started with the ladybugs. Yes I was first...not FF or hyroot. Is that bahiagrass?


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## foreverflyhi (May 18, 2014)

Nope barley grass for the rabit, i did just drop a bunch Bermuda grass to see how it grows. Bahia is the one that attracts or have mycho?

And no, u cant touch my bunny red.


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## legaleyes13 (May 20, 2014)

How big of a worm bin would I need to supply enough castings for a 4x4 bed?

And how often does one harvest castings?

Thanks in advance


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## hyroot (May 20, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Nope barley grass for the rabit, i did just drop a bunch Bermuda grass to see how it grows. Bahia is the one that attracts or have mycho?
> 
> And no, u cant touch my bunny red.


spider bunny spider bunny


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## st0wandgrow (May 20, 2014)

legaleyes13 said:


> How big of a worm bin would I need to supply enough castings for a 4x4 bed?
> 
> And how often does one harvest castings?
> 
> Thanks in advance



How many cubic feet of soil are you working with? Compost/vermicpmpost should account for apx 1/4 to 1/3 of your mix. It will take a good 3 months or so for the worms to produce a size able amount if castings


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## legaleyes13 (May 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> How many cubic feet of soil are you working with? Compost/vermicpmpost should account for apx 1/4 to 1/3 of your mix. It will take a good 3 months or so for the worms to produce a size able amount if castings


10 cu ft. The mix is already 1/3 compost, but I sourced it from a local farm. I was under the impression that it's best to use homemade worm castings to top dress with after every run. I'm thinking that the worm bin may be more trouble than it's worth, particularly if I decide to go with a perpetual setup... If it takes 3 months to produce the amount of castings it takes to top dress a 4x4 bed, I'd need at least 4 worm bins if I decided to go perpetual...

Thanks for your repsonse.


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## st0wandgrow (May 20, 2014)

If you have a local place that carries fresh castings, then rock on! As long as it isn't packaged and sitting on a shelf you should be good. I'd check with the farmer and see what they feed them. Most farms utilize worms to process their manures in to castings.... which is OK, but probably not as good as what you could make yourself with a few bins. I would use the castings you got for top dressing and compost teas.

Good luck


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## legaleyes13 (May 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> If you have a local place that carries fresh castings, then rock on! As long as it isn't packaged and sitting on a shelf you should be good. I'd check with the farmer and see what they feed them. Most farms utilize worms to process their manures in to castings.... which is OK, but probably not as good as what you could make yourself with a few bins. I would use the castings you got for top dressing and compost teas.
> 
> Good luck


Thanks man, but I just want to clarify that the compost that I currently have in my mix is not worm castings, it's mostly aged horse and chicken manure. I'll try my best to find some place local with fresh worm castings... or maybe I'll start a few bins. But with the amount of bins I'll need, and all of the horror stories I've heard about sifting/harvesting castings, I'm thinking I should do everything I can to try and source them locally.

Thanks again.


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## KLITE (May 23, 2014)

> If you have a local place that carries fresh castings, then rock on! As long as it isn't packaged and sitting on a shelf you should be good. I'd check with the farmer and see what they feed them. Most farms utilize worms to process their manures in to castings.... which is OK, but probably not as good as what you could make yourself with a few bins. I would use the castings you got for top dressing and compost teas.
> Good luck


The place i get mine bag everyweek and use horse shit plus municipal organic waste. It looks smells and feels pretty much like my own vermicompost. Its also cheap as peas and the guy delivers  I love good vermicompost, does wonders!

Also id like to thank you guys for guiding on the seed tea. Small veg plants loved it, and flowering ones just became shinnier and i could tell it sat better in their stomachs than my enzymatic pond cleaner.


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## DonPetro (May 23, 2014)

Caution:Worm Porn 
Organic Eyes Only
 
Caught these naughty bitches gettin busy. I think im gettin a boner!


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## CannaBare (May 25, 2014)

Any tips on adding rabbit poo to the worm bin? I added some the other night with a good spray of water and its staying dry. The worms wont go near it yet.


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## Chronikool (May 25, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Any tips on adding rabbit poo to the worm bin? I added some the other night with a good spray of water and its staying dry. The worms wont go near it yet.


I guess like most (all) manures it has to break down 'naturally'...so it takes a bit of time....

digging it in as opposed to leaving on top will help...


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## foreverflyhi (May 26, 2014)

Yuppers thats what i do, dig a little into the the castings and the worms will eat it. Rabbit poo wont burn ur plants so u can also top dress with it and add castings over it


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## st0wandgrow (May 26, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Any tips on adding rabbit poo to the worm bin? I added some the other night with a good spray of water and its staying dry. The worms wont go near it yet.


What are you feeding the bunnies? Straight Timothy hay is of less benefit to your worm bin, and ultimately your garden as is alfalfa hay. The Timothy hay is better for the rabbits, so a good compromise is a 50/50 mix IMO. The worms will most likely start burrowing in to the poop once the microbes have done some work on it. I found that the worms like to lay cocoons in the droppings. The bunny hair is useful in that regard too.

I stopped adding the poop to my worm bin, and now opt for the compost bin outside. It's easier to just dump the bedding and all in to a large compost bin instead of sifting through the muck for turds. Plus I like the idea of the thermofilic composting process to kill pathogens. Probably being overly cautious, but that's where I'm at with bunny poop


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## hyroot (May 26, 2014)

I think all my worms died. First it was too wet and anerobic and now its too dry.. I dug in there last night and didn't see one worm.. Now to buy some more. 3 times other times I thought they all died. Within a week there were a bunch each time...


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## Mohican (May 26, 2014)

Smart pots are a great container for worms. I put it on a bed of base soil to collect the liquid goodness and I just throw kitchen scraps in once a week. They also love wet cardboard. I keep their bin out of the sun in a shady spot. I have let them go for months and all that happened is that they ate everything!


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## keysareme (May 30, 2014)

I just found a listing on craigslist for a huge free pile of organic lava rock!

Man some people just don't realize, all you need to do is grind that stuff up, and you have some of the most potent soil building essentials man. Its free, a huge pile of lava rock! I wish I had a truck and a grinder man!


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## DonAlejandroVega (May 30, 2014)

keysareme said:


> I just found a listing on craigslist for a huge free pile of organic lava rock!
> 
> Man some people just don't realize, all you need to do is grind that stuff up, and you have some of the most potent soil building essentials man. Its free, a huge pile of lava rock! I wish I had a truck and a grinder man!


different lavas, different minerals..........caution


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## keysareme (May 30, 2014)

DonAlejandroVega said:


> different lavas, different minerals..........caution


Thanks, I'd always make sure to know where stuff put into my garden was sourced from. 
Stuff to be looking out for would be? - Organic Mulch's, shredded woodchips, shredded bark, free composted manures? Stuff like this? I see lots of it on craigslist.


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## Pattahabi (May 31, 2014)

DonAlejandroVega said:


> different lavas, different minerals..........caution


Caution? Why?


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## DonAlejandroVega (May 31, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Caution? Why?


one might have ph of 8, or 9. I think the red stuff they use in aquaponics is alkaline, and that's the most common free lava on C/L. besides.......it will leave a huge carbon footprint. the gasoline transporting and crushing, hardly makes the enterprise worthwhile


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## Pattahabi (May 31, 2014)

DonAlejandroVega said:


> one might have ph of 8, or 9. I think the red stuff they use in aquaponics is alkaline, and that's the most common free lava on C/L. besides.......it will leave a huge carbon footprint. the gasoline transporting and crushing, hardly makes the enterprise worthwhile


pH?... Oh god, here we go again. Microbes take care of the ph, not lava rock. I use glacial rock dust, basalt, scoria, big red home depot lava rock, small black lava rock, a little perlite (hate it, but it was left over), etc. I do not have pH problems.

As far as gas to ship, do you use peat? neem? perlite? Do you make your own earthworm castings? Harvest your own rice hulls? I buy lava rock once, it stays in my soil and is continually reused. So who is on their pulpit pointing fingers? Use as local as possible, be as sustainable as possible, it's all good. No one has all the answers - which is why I asked why someone would not use different types of lava rock. There is always more to learn, so if anyone has any reasons why I shouldn't be using 20 different kinds of lava rock please chime in.

Many thanks!
P-


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## DonAlejandroVega (May 31, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> pH?... Oh god, here we go again. Microbes take care of the ph, not lava rock. I use glacial rock dust, basalt, scoria, big red home depot lava rock, small black lava rock, a little perlite (hate it, but it was left over), etc. I do not have pH problems.
> 
> As far as gas to ship, do you use peat? neem? perlite? Do you make your own earthworm castings? Harvest your own rice hulls? I buy lava rock once, it stays in my soil and is continually reused. So who is on their pulpit pointing fingers? Use as local as possible, be as sustainable as possible, it's all good. No one has all the answers - which is why I asked why someone would not use different types of lava rock. There is always more to learn, so if anyone has any reasons why I shouldn't be using 20 different kinds of lava rock please chime in.
> 
> ...


but......with highly alkalotic medium.......he won't have any microbes. the red stuff for aquaponics is not the same as the black lava of renowned pot-growing areas. shipping peat from Canada in BULK, is cheaper than him, driving a truck to this place, an' shoveling lava, to reverse the process, to run it thru a gas-powered crusher.


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## Pattahabi (May 31, 2014)

DonAlejandroVega said:


> but......with highly alkalotic medium.......he won't have any microbes. the red stuff for aquaponics is not the same as the black lava of renowned pot-growing areas. shipping peat from Canada in BULK, is cheaper than him, driving a truck to this place, an' shoveling lava, to reverse the process, to run it thru a gas-powered crusher.


Highly alkalotic medium? Are you telling me the red lava rocks from home depot are going to kill my microbes? I have the red lava rock in my soil. Is that what is wrong with my plants? 




We're all trying to grow organic and sustainable. Sure, we want to be as sustainable as possible, but unless you are a completely closed looped gardener, you're just like the rest of us doing the best we can. 

On a lighter note, this is my new horizontal flow through worm bin. I built this for less then $60 in materials. I'm a total noob vermiculturist, so this is going to be a really fun learning experience. A friend and I are looking into putting together some larger bins. This one will hold about 20 gallons in each side.



Loving the gorgeous weather! Time to fire up some herb and enjoy the weekend!

Peace!
P-


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## Mohican (May 31, 2014)

I tried crushing some red lava rock and the resulting soil turned to cement. Could not get water to flow through. I have some big black lava rocks in with my gardenias and I think it is making them very happy.

I transplanted the plant out of the lava cement and it responded very well.







Mixed it with super soil and biochar/ash:








When I watered it the soil smelled like cement! It never drained well after that.


I have the whole red lava rock around my avocado, and blueberries.


Cheers,
Mo


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## Steelheader3430 (May 31, 2014)

I just tested my NPK with one of those vial testers from home depot. I hear they're not perfect but it gives me an idea. P didn't even read at all. Would you guys recommend high p guano as a dry amendment or should I mix it with water and water it in. The moisture of my soil is good right now. I'm between runs and the soil is just sitting in fabric pots and a trash can. My N is off the charts but i'm not concerned as it's all organic. I've got about 60 gallons of soil and not sure how much guano to add. With my k def I liberally dusted with potash, and it came up to a good level.


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## Pattahabi (May 31, 2014)

Mo, did you have any other aeration besides the red lava rock and bio-char? I broke up that exact red lava rock from home depot and did not have those results. I did get tired of breaking it up with a hammer, which is another reason I have several types and sizes in my mix. I don't know of any reason why that lava rock would drain any different then any other? May I ask what else was in the mix?



Steelheader3430 said:


> I just tested my NPK with one of those vial testers from home depot. I hear they're not perfect but it gives me an idea. P didn't even read at all. Would you guys recommend high p guano as a dry amendment or should I mix it with water and water it in. The moisture of my soil is good right now. I'm between runs and the soil is just sitting in fabric pots and a trash can. My N is off the charts but i'm not concerned as it's all organic. I've got about 60 gallons of soil and not sure how much guano to add. With my k def I liberally dusted with potash, and it came up to a good level.


I would throw that npk tester away, imo it's useless. Hydrostores are always telling us our plants need more - they are in a place of lack. What I have found is adding less is more. There is no substitute for quality humus. Adding a bunch of P is going to kill mycorrhizal fungi. If you are seeing a specific issue, post it up and lets see what we can figure out.

Peace!
P-


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## DonPetro (May 31, 2014)

I personally stay away from guanos for various reasons i won't get into. If you have time, add @ 1/tbsp per gallon some micronized soft rock phosphate and fish bone meal or even regular organic bone meal depending on your preference. Add another couple cups of fresh castings and mix it up.


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## st0wandgrow (May 31, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I just tested my NPK with one of those vial testers from home depot. I hear they're not perfect but it gives me an idea. P didn't even read at all. Would you guys recommend high p guano as a dry amendment or should I mix it with water and water it in. The moisture of my soil is good right now. I'm between runs and the soil is just sitting in fabric pots and a trash can. My N is off the charts but i'm not concerned as it's all organic. I've got about 60 gallons of soil and not sure how much guano to add. With my k def I liberally dusted with potash, and it came up to a good level.



Steel, I've scaled things back pretty substantially and I love the results. 1/3 peat/coco, 1/3 *quality* compost, and 1/3 aeration bits. To that I add kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab shell meal, neem seed meal, and an all purpose organic amendment (Organically Done)..... Which I probably don't even need, but it's a local company and I figure it can't hurt. In addition I add generous amounts of rock dusts (3-4 cups per cf).

The only other items that I use that I can visually verify positive results from are fish hydrosylate and silica. Both of those are watered in once every couple weeks or so. A couple compost teas along the way are used for good measure as well.

If your compost is kick-ass, you have plenty of aeration bits, and you're generous with the rock dusts you will get killer results.

Edit: forgot oyster shell flour. I use that too.


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## Mohican (May 31, 2014)

Best soil I ever made using bags was with bone, blood, iron, and 10 years of used organic veggie potting soil. I also had great results making a tea with espoma organic veggie fert.

Super soil made with a base of ProMix BX was amazing too.

The compost pile with bananas, eggshells, dandelions, grass, leaves, fruits, veggies, weeds, weed...was to date the most amazing grow ever. I did hit it with one dose of PK (Mad Farmer MOAB) at the start of flower because it didn't look like it was flowering nearly as well as it's sister in the Super Soil. Results were amazing. No burnt tips on the long skinny Mulanje sativa leaves. No bugs!

Now my TGA Jesus OG is re-vegging in that spot and is already throwing out dark green new growth!

@Pattahabi - maybe the mixture of ash and lava dust made cement? The remainder of the soil was super soil and more worm castings. When I removed the plant a week later (it was not happy) and put it in a smart pot full of Super Soil it responded immediately and gave me some nice buds  I used a sledge hammer and just dropped it repeatedly on the lava rocks to break them up. Some were hard as metal and others were soft. I want to get some volcanic sand to try in my soil in the future. I want that nice volcano flavor from Hawaii!

Cheers,
Mo


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## Pattahabi (May 31, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Best soil I ever made using bags was with bone, blood, iron, and 10 years of used organic veggie potting soil. I also had great results making a tea with espoma organic veggie fert.
> 
> Super soil made with a base of ProMix BX was amazing too.
> 
> ...


Mo, I would leave the wood ash out and try again. Take a look at the liming properties of wood ash.

*Wiki Wood Ash*

Funtimes is my go to for geology questions. Here's a quick copy and paste. What I find most interesting is how similar the different lava rocks are. Seems to me that cooling rates and gases seem to be the primary difference. Now the real question - How available (or how long till available) are these minerals? 



funtimes said:


> Ya buddy. The dark lava rock, a.k.a. scoria, is derived from the same type of magma that would make basalt. What makes them different is the conditions of their formation. Scoria will erupt out of volcanoes with water and gases in the lava, being flung out to rapidly cool off and end up looking like a sponge. If that same magma slowly cooled over a long time under the earth, the minerals would have time to group together visible crystals of olivine and make a rock called gabbro. If it cooled off fairly quickly and came from a more mellow eruption, like a Hawaiian volcano, the result would be basalt. The same deal applies for pumice, granite, and rhyolite....in that order LOLz.
> 
> To bring it home for anyone not up on their igneous rock game....
> 
> The basalt-gabbro-scoria making material (lava only exists on the surface of the earth, magma is in the ground) is referred to as mafic. If you pop on over to wikipedia, go to the "igneous rocks" entry, and take a quick peek at the table next to the "chemical classification" heading, you will see that the magma is primarily composed of pyroxine, olivine and a small ammount of Ca rich plagioclase. The rhyolite-granite-pumice making stuff is referred to as felsic and is composed of orthoclase, quartz, Na rich plagioclase, muscovite, biotite, and amphibole. The minerals covered in those two lists, mafic and felsic, cover pretty much the whole spectrum of the primary components of ALL igneous rocks. BWAHAHAHA!


Peace!
P-


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## Steelheader3430 (May 31, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Steel, I've scaled things back pretty substantially and I love the results. 1/3 peat/coco, 1/3 *quality* compost, and 1/3 aeration bits. To that I add kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab shell meal, neem seed meal, and an all purpose organic amendment (Organically Done)..... Which I probably don't even need, but it's a local company and I figure it can't hurt. In addition I add generous amounts of rock dusts (3-4 cups per cf).
> 
> The only other items that I use that I can visually verify positive results from are fish hydrosylate and silica. Both of those are watered in once every couple weeks or so. A couple compost teas along the way are used for good measure as well.
> 
> ...



Sounds a lot like my mix. It's the one caan posted up at the beginning of the thread. I made a tea with some steeped horsetail for silica and added the potash. Now I just gotta get some P in there. I'll probably just spread it out and dust on the guano like I did the potash.


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## st0wandgrow (May 31, 2014)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Sounds a lot like my mix. It's the one caan posted up at the beginning of the thread. I made a tea with some steeped horsetail for silica and added the potash. Now I just gotta get some P in there. I'll probably just spread it out and dust on the guano like I did the potash.


Then I would proceed with caution adding phosphorous. Too much can be detrimental to the micro herd (fungi) and can affect uptake.


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## Mohican (May 31, 2014)

I think you are right about the ash!

It is all that they use in Malawi for fertilizer (and probably urine).


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## keysareme (Jun 2, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Highly alkalotic medium? Are you telling me the red lava rocks from home depot are going to kill my microbes? I have the red lava rock in my soil. Is that what is wrong with my plants?
> 
> View attachment 3167035
> 
> ...


Dude,


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## CannaBare (Jun 3, 2014)

If I already have Greensand, Basalt, and glacial rock dust do I need to add or even buy rock phosphate? I read it is good for fungas but so is any rock dust. The glacial rock dust sheet says it's great for phosporous, which I did not know when I bought it. I was going to buy the Rock Phosphate but now I just don't know. Does everyone here use rock phosphate? Do you think I'll need it with my other rock dusts?


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## Mohican (Jun 4, 2014)

Many of these slow amendments take a full season to become available to your plants.


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## Pattahabi (Jun 4, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> If I already have Greensand, Basalt, and glacial rock dust do I need to add or even buy rock phosphate? I read it is good for fungas but so is any rock dust. The glacial rock dust sheet says it's great for phosporous, which I did not know when I bought it. I was going to buy the Rock Phosphate but now I just don't know. Does everyone here use rock phosphate? Do you think I'll need it with my other rock dusts?


Personally I stay away from SRP because of the polonium-210. I also believe the concept of using high P in flower is a hydro philosophy that should not be applied to organic gardening. I think you have it pretty well covered with the basalt and GRD. 

P-


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## hyroot (Jun 4, 2014)

^^^^ basalt rock dust is a nutrient accumulator as well. Especially with phos


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 4, 2014)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^ basalt rock dust is a nutrient accumulator as well. Especially with phos


I was under the assumption that nutrient accumulators are plants. Have I been mistaken this whole time?


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## hyroot (Jun 4, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I was under the assumption that nutrient accumulators are plants. Have I been mistaken this whole time?


both. Legumes, grass, comfrey, etc... Kelp, rock dust, etc... Nutrient accumulators


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## Pattahabi (Jun 4, 2014)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^ basalt rock dust is a nutrient accumulator as well. Especially with phos


I think you should take some time to research your answers. Your misinformation is going to cost people money and time.

Edit: Full text *HERE*



> *Dynamic accumulators are plants* that gather certain micronutrients, macronutrients, or minerals from the soil through their roots, as opposed to from the air, and store them in their leaves. These plants can be used either for detoxifying soil or for gathering a certain nutrient or mineral from an area. For instance, clovers will mine great quantities of nitrogen out of the air via a symbiotic relationship with bacteria. These bacteria convert gaseous nitrogen into a form available to the clover, and exchange this nitrogen for exudates/sugars given by the clover. When the clover dies or is cut down, the green matter breaks down and releases the nitrogen into the soil.


But then again, who believes wiki?


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## hyroot (Jun 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I think you should take some time to research your answers. Your misinformation is going to cost people money and time.
> 
> Edit: Full text *HERE*
> 
> ...


 
read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.

you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 5, 2014)

hyroot said:


> read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.
> 
> you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.



hy, do you feel that it's important to post accurate info? I do. We all have opinions on certain things, but a lot of topics aren't about opinions, they're about facts. I can tell you that Pattahabi is very knowledgeable when it comes to organics. He belongs to another site that I used to frequent, and I've never known him to spread misinformation, or be at all argumentative. You've posted some stuff recently that doesn't seem correct, and he is simply trying to set the record straight for anyone that reads this.

You asked him to site credible sources to back up his assertions, but have you done that? Here's a few things that you've posted recently off the top of my head, and I would like for you to back up your claims with some credible sources. If you're correct, and I'm wrong then I will admit that and be happy that I learned something new. There's no shame in being wrong. We're not keeping score here.

You claimed that:

- small bubbles kill microbes in a compost tea

- 48 hours of darkness at the end of the flowering period will "double or triple" your trichome count

- compost/vermicompost bins grow mycorrhizal fungi

- basalt is a nutrient accumulator

I believe all of the above is either incorrect, or grossly exaggerated. If you can provide proof from credible sources for any of the above I will gladly admit that I was mistaken. Again, I think it's important to be as factual with the info that we share on here as possible.


----------



## hyroot (Jun 5, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> hy, do you feel that it's important to post accurate info? I do. We all have opinions on certain things, but a lot of topics aren't about opinions, they're about facts. I can tell you that Pattahabi is very knowledgeable when it comes to organics. He belongs to another site that I used to frequent, and I've never known him to spread misinformation, or be at all argumentative. You've posted some stuff recently that doesn't seem correct, and he is simply trying to set the record straight for anyone that reads this.
> 
> You asked him to site credible sources to back up his assertions, but have you done that? Here's a few things that you've posted recently off the top of my head, and I would like for you to back up your claims with some credible sources. If you're correct, and I'm wrong then I will admit that and be happy that I learned something new. There's no shame in being wrong. We're not keeping score here.
> 
> ...


 
accumulators info at beginning thread. Small bubbles slicing through microbes is in Elaine ingrams book and on microbe mans site. Darkness, I posted that link to oxford journals in gands thread and everyone else agreed. You argued about thc% not amount of oils and trichomes.. If you are still disputing that then you never tried. Next you will say uvb doesn't improve trichomes. When it does. We already settled that one. I guess you never got over it.

the other dude. Attacked me in another thread. Correcting something I never said.. He stalks me on every thread.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 5, 2014)

*"accumulators info at beginning thread."
*
I don't consider a thread on RIU a credible source. You asked him to cite university studies and/or other credible sources, and I'm asking you to do the same.


*"Small bubbles slicing through microbes is in Elaine ingrams book and on microbe mans site"
*
Here's a quote from Tim Wilsons website that you cited above:

"Review of Some Common Myths; [In no particular order]1/ Small bubbles destroy fungal hyphae or other microbes.

This is utter nonsense. The bubbles/air would need to be super compressed to harm any microorganisms."

http://www.microbeorganics.com/


*"Darkness, I posted that link to oxford journals in gands thread and everyone else agreed. You argued about thc% not amount of oils and trichomes.. If you are still disputing that then you never tried. Next you will say uvb doesn't improve trichomes. When it does. We already settled that one. I guess you never got over it."
*
You said that 48 hours of darkness "doubles or triples" trichome coverage. I never disputed that it *might* have a net positive effect, but I called bullshit on your claim of "double or triple", and you never backed that up. To me that's a gross exaggeration, and until you can find a credible source to substantiate this then it will remain bullshit.
You skipped the mycorrhizae growing in a compost bin. You still insist that this is true, even when presented with credible evidence to the contrary, so I would like for you to post up some good sources of info to back that up .....


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## Rrog (Jun 5, 2014)

I used to grow in soil buckets with compressed air from below percolating up through the soil medium. Fungal growth was un-naturally over the top. I liked it at first, til I discovered that the Canna likes bacterially dominated, not fungally dominated soil.

The bubbles without question don't harm the fungus. Just the opposite, just as Tim says.


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## hyroot (Jun 5, 2014)

*Air - *More is better. The microbes living in your compost tea are aerobic, they will “breathe” the dissolved oxygen out of your tea at an astonishing rate.Don’t cut corners here. It is hard to overdo the aeration. You want the air bubbles to agitate your substrate and knock off organisms from the organic matter. It is possible however to have bubbles that are too big or too small. Extremely large bubbles will disrupt fungal hyphae and small bubbles may cut them like a knife.Sandstone air diffusers or airstones aren’t ideal because they can house bacteria and throw off your future brews.


http://www.beneficialbiologics.com/index.php/products/compost-tea


http://washington.osu.edu/cuyahoga/topics/agriculture-and-natural-resources/cuyahoga-composts/Compost Tea Brewing Manual.pdf

tim wilson must of changed. he admits to being uneducated and self taught



trichomes

http://aob.oxfordjournals.org/content/93/1/3.long

i never said mychorrizzae. i said fungi. i said you could make mychorrizzae growing any sort of short root plants or grass which is true.


theres links at the beginning of the thread for accumulators. this was covered to death over a year ago. so if you want it, look for it yourself.

im not the one arguing over it. prosecution has to present its case not the other way around


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 5, 2014)

hyroot said:


> *Air - *More is better. The microbes living in your compost tea are aerobic, they will “breathe” the dissolved oxygen out of your tea at an astonishing rate.Don’t cut corners here. It is hard to overdo the aeration. You want the air bubbles to agitate your substrate and knock off organisms from the organic matter. It is possible however to have bubbles that are too big or too small. Extremely large bubbles will disrupt fungal hyphae and small bubbles may cut them like a knife.Sandstone air diffusers or airstones aren’t ideal because they can house bacteria and throw off your future brews.
> 
> 
> http://www.beneficialbiologics.com/index.php/products/compost-tea
> ...



The thread you responded to was titled "Inexpensive Mycos".

Your response: "compost is cheaper and has all that in it ."

Quit moving the goal posts when you're wrong.

As for the "2 to 3 times" increase in production of trichomes with a 48 hour dark period, I read your link, and there was NO mention of trichome increase with a 48 hour light deprivation, let alone 2 to 3 times. You might want to read a link before you post it as proof.

There seems to be conflicting info on the small bubbles theory. I find it hard to believe that any bubbler/diffuser that any of us would be using would shred microbes, but I don't know enough about the topic to be certain. I do believe Tim knows enough, and has tested the results to be certain though. He even said in the quote that I posted "The bubbles/air would need to be super compressed to harm any microorganisms."

And no, basalt is not a nutrient accumulator. Find a credible source to back that up. Otherwise it's just conjecture.


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## thegreenbull (Jun 7, 2014)

hyroot said:


> read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.
> 
> you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.



0573247, member: 319672"]read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.

you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.[/QUOTE]
Thanks for the info bro


hyroot said:


> read this thread from the beginning. cann and headtreep provide links and sources... You will even see where me and cann argued about kelp being a phos accumulator. I was saying the opposite of what I am now.
> 
> you should stop stalkinge trying to argue every post with wiki. Only use links and sources from creditable scientist and horticulturists, universities and botany labs. Oxford, Cambridge, Harvard, university of Missouri, Washington state, Texas a&M all have botany and horticulture departments. Oxford and university of Missouri are among the top. Elaine Ingram is a creditable microbiologist to read on. Teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients are good books. Revs tlo is another. Compost teas by Elaine Ingram is another good book. Grow some plants and gain some real world experience. Then come back in 10-15 years after you have done so. You can find horticulture 101, 110, 210 from university of Missouri online for free. I suggest reading those first.


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## ~Dankster~420 (Jun 8, 2014)

I dont know if this thread is ALIVE still.. However I was planning on starting my gardening with Dank 101.. just a little side project of mine.. I just started grafing trees. Grafter my 1st Apple tree to a Pech tree..  anyone want to check it out?? I also just started my compost pile back & here's a few pics.          


headtreep said:


> After several years and countless dollars wasted on chemical nutes and never recycling my soil I have learned the true way of gardening thanks to a great thread on ICMag.
> 
> *ALL CREDIT TO:* https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964 *Living organic soil from start through recycling*. *Special thanks to MM, CC, LD, Gas, and the other organic terrorists.*
> 
> ...


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## DonPetro (Jun 8, 2014)

~Dankster~420 said:


> I dont know if this thread is ALIVE still.. However I was planning on starting my gardening with Dank 101.. just a little side project of mine.. I just started grafing trees. Grafter my 1st Apple tree to a Pech tree..  anyone want to check it out?? I also just started my compost pile back & here's a few pics. View attachment 3173823 View attachment 3173825 View attachment 3173826 View attachment 3173827 View attachment 3173828 View attachment 3173830 View attachment 3173831 View attachment 3173832 View attachment 3173833 View attachment 3173834


You are the man Mr. Dankster.


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## thegreenbull (Jun 8, 2014)

~Dankster~420 said:


> I dont know if this thread is ALIVE still.. However I was planning on starting my gardening with Dank 101.. just a little side project of mine.. I just started grafing trees. Grafter my 1st Apple tree to a Pech tree..  anyone want to check it out?? I also just started my compost pile back & here's a few pics. View attachment 3173823 View attachment 3173825 View attachment 3173826 View attachment 3173827 View attachment 3173828 View attachment 3173830 View attachment 3173831 View attachment 3173832 View attachment 3173833 View attachment 3173834


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## starcraftguy1988 (Jun 10, 2014)

I respect the accumulated knowledge in this room. I was hoping some of you more veteran growers could correct or add too anything you see here. This is my third organic soil, the first was a mix of organic bottles and amendments(ended badly), and the second one was great but only used happy frogs bloom amendment mix. this time i have purchased several and come up with this. 
SOILBASE:
5cuft: sunshine organic, inert. brown and white bags.
35 lbs: vermicrop

AMENDMENTS:
1/2 cup: Azomite
1.2 cups: Alfalfa meal
2 cups: Kelp Meal
1 cup: Soft rock phosphate
1/2 cup dolomitic lime

Im using little bti bits(mosquito bits) for the soil as far as soil pests, and sticky traps/neem oil for anything else.
Like i said its pretty barebones, so please if the more veteran Organic soil gardeners, pipe in if you see anything obvious. Also this mix is already cooking as of 3 hours ago, But it hasnt been too long that i couldnt break it down and add an amendment or two.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 10, 2014)

starcraftguy1988 said:


> I respect the accumulated knowledge in this room. I was hoping some of you more veteran growers could correct or add too anything you see here. This is my third organic soil, the first was a mix of organic bottles and amendments(ended badly), and the second one was great but only used happy frogs bloom amendment mix. this time i have purchased several and come up with this.
> SOILBASE:
> 5cuft: sunshine organic, inert. brown and white bags.
> 35 lbs: vermicrop
> ...


What you added to the base.... are those measurements per cubic foot or is that the total amount you added to the base?


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## starcraftguy1988 (Jun 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> What you added to the base.... are those measurements per cubic foot or is that the total amount you added to the base?


The amendments listed and the measurements are what i added to the entire batch. Is this not enough, too much! AHHHHH


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 11, 2014)

starcraftguy1988 said:


> The amendments listed and the measurements are what i added to the entire batch. Is this not enough, too much! AHHHHH



Well, to give you an idea the last batch of soil I made was 8cf of base. To that I added 4 cups each of the following: kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab shell meal, neem cake, and oyster shell flour. Then 24 cups of rock dust. 

You already have the kelp and alflafa meals, so I would start by adding more of each. You could also pick up an all purpose dry organic fert like Espoma and add some of that as well. 

If you wanted to, you could leave things be and plant your seedlings in to that mix, and then top dress and/or brew some teas to get the girls finished up. I would not count on your current mix to have enough juice to get you to the finish line though.


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## starcraftguy1988 (Jun 11, 2014)

I think i like the idea of leaving it be as a nice starter/veg mix and then coming back and making an ACT or two for the final days. Thanks again man, your effort is much appreciated.


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## DonPetro (Jun 11, 2014)

Can i ask why most of you organic gurus don't use greensand in your soil mixes? I thought you guys would be all over that shit.


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## hyroot (Jun 11, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Can i ask why most of you organic gurus don't use greensand in your soil mixes? I thought you guys would be all over that shit.


because it takes about 2 years to break down. So it's useless.


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## DonPetro (Jun 12, 2014)

hyroot said:


> because it takes about 2 years to break down. So it's useless.


Don't you recycle your soil mix though?


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 12, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Can i ask why most of you organic gurus don't use greensand in your soil mixes? I thought you guys would be all over that shit.


Personally I don't because I get a great deal on kelp meal at a feed store, and I get rock dusts from a quarry for free. AFAIK greensand primarily brings minerals and potassium to the table, and I have that already covered with the kelp meal and rock dusts.


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## rocknratm (Jun 12, 2014)

funny I bought green sand for my SS mix. I was looking for a high potash something to add, the ratio seemed off.


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## CannaBare (Jun 14, 2014)

Hey guys,

I am really low on EWC and have a ton of rabbit poo. I lucked out and found a ton of poo for cheap, really clean, no hay in two bags! I couldn't believe it. Could I substitute the poo for the EWC? Why does it have to be EWC? I have always wondered that.

Thanks!


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## Below66 (Jun 15, 2014)

Worm castings is the caviar of castings, they break down material in ways that are still being studied. Casting from rabbits are unique in that rabbits shit completely dry pellets which I believe are more readily-available to compost and plants than wet/hot manures from other animals(cow/horse/chicken). I'm still not sure if people top-dress with rabbit poo though, the reason you seldom see anyone use anything but castings from worms for top-dressing is because it's a completely different process. 

You are truly in organic business when you are taking that rabbit poo and throwing it in your compost pile to be worked for a while, to then be thrown in the worm bin and worked a bit more.


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## DonAlejandroVega (Jun 15, 2014)

Below66 said:


> Worm castings is the caviar of castings, they break down material in ways that are still being studied. Casting from rabbits are unique in that rabbits shit completely dry pellets which I believe are more readily-available to compost and plants than wet/hot manures from other animals(cow/horse/chicken). I'm still not sure if people top-dress with rabbit poo though, the reason you seldom see anyone use anything but castings from worms for top-dressing is because it's a completely different process.
> 
> You are truly in organic business when you are taking that rabbit poo and throwing it in your compost pile to be worked for a while, to then be thrown in the worm bin and worked a bit more.


rabbit shite is the best mammal dung, other than bat. rabbit dung can be used directly as a top dress without causing burning. I love it. clean the bedding out though, some as microbes will actually draw nutrients out of your soil, to process the bedding, and have a population explosion. crafty little buggers.

I don't run it through my wigglers because of these qualities. its a finished product, in my eyes.


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## CannaBare (Jun 15, 2014)

I think I am going to throw as much EWC as I have left in the mix as long with rabbit poo for more organic matter and available nutrients so it doesn't have to cook. This is only a test for tomatoes anyways


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 15, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I am really low on EWC and have a ton of rabbit poo. I lucked out and found a ton of poo for cheap, really clean, no hay in two bags! I couldn't believe it. *Could I substitute the poo for the EWC? Why does it have to be EWC? I have always wondered that.*
> 
> Thanks!


Rabbit poop is going to be a readily available source of nutrients, namely N. Assuming the rabbits diet consists of (at least in part) alfalfa hay/pellets then it will be a good source of N and also triacontanol (growth hormone). Worm castings will provide some nutrients, but the main benefit is the microbial population and ph buffering that it provides.

Rabbit poo is great, but I don't I don't personally consider it a substitute for EWC.


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## DonTesla (Jun 15, 2014)

WELL SAID STOW. THESE EWC'S ARE BLOWING MY MIND BRO! U CAN SEE FERTILITY JUST GLISTEN IN THEIR WAKE.. WOW.

SINCE THEYRE AT THE CORE OF ORGANICS HERE IS A SHOT OF THEM AT THE CORE OF A BANANA (SEE THE BABIES?)


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## DonTesla (Jun 15, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Rabbit poop is going to be a readily available source of nutrients, namely N. Assuming the rabbits diet consists of (at least in part) alfalfa hay/pellets then it will be a good source of N and also triacontanol (growth hormone). Worm castings will provide some nutrients, but the main benefit is the microbial population and ph buffering that it provides.
> 
> Rabbit poo is great, but I don't I don't personally consider it a substitute for EWC.


STOW OUR BRO, IF U FEED UR WORMS MORE ALFAFA WILL THE TRIACANTANOL PASS ON TO THE PLANTS VIA THE EWC??


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 15, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> STOW OUR BRO, IF U FEED UR WORMS MORE ALFAFA WILL THE TRIACANTANOL PASS ON TO THE PLANTS VIA THE EWC??


I would think so DT, but I'm not 100% certain what remains after it goes through the gizzard. Maybe more importantly though, the trillions of microbes in the worm bin are snacking on that too, and when they poop/get eaten that will be plant available.


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## thegreenbull (Jun 17, 2014)

What's the best soil recipe for rols I've seen many changes since the beginning of this thread


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## CannaBare (Jun 17, 2014)

Do any of the rols growers here like to use organic all-purpose fertilizers? I found one at lowes today and I was very impressed with it. It is called Jobes All-Purpose 4-4-4. It comes with tons of bacteria and endo/ecto mycorrhizae, and something called Biozyme? Would anyone recommend using this?

I plan to just top dress at harvest with alfalfa, kelp, crab, neam, karanja, and of course EWC and a compost tea. Would the all-purpose be a good addition to my top-dress? or should I just make nutrient teas throughout if I need them?

Thanks!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jun 17, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Do any of the rols growers here like to use organic all-purpose fertilizers? I found one at lowes today and I was very impressed with it. It is called Jobes All-Purpose 4-4-4. It comes with tons of bacteria and endo/ecto mycorrhizae, and something called Biozyme? Would anyone recommend using this?
> 
> I plan to just top dress at harvest with alfalfa, kelp, crab, neam, karanja, and of course EWC and a compost tea. Would the all-purpose be a good addition to my top-dress? or should I just make nutrient teas throughout if I need them?
> 
> Thanks!


I always throw in an all purpose fert. I've used Espoma Garden Tone, DTE Vegan Mix, and more recently a company out of MI here called Organically Done. Probably don't need it, but my thinking is it will cover any bases I may miss with my single inputs and a little extra diversity never hurts. Just be sure to read the label and make sure it's derived from all organic ingredients


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## CannaBare (Jun 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I always throw in an all purpose fert. I've used Espoma Garden Tone, DTE Vegan Mix, and more recently a company out of MI here called Organically Done. Probably don't need it, but my thinking is it will cover any bases I may miss with my single inputs and a little extra diversity never hurts. Just be sure to read the label and make sure it's derived from all organic ingredients


Do you go for the ones with the most diversity of ingredients? I am glad I did not buy Jobes just because little ingredients were used, just a ton of microbes.


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## DonPetro (Jun 17, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Do any of the rols growers here like to use organic all-purpose fertilizers? I found one at lowes today and I was very impressed with it. It is called Jobes All-Purpose 4-4-4. It comes with tons of bacteria and endo/ecto mycorrhizae, and something called Biozyme? Would anyone recommend using this?
> 
> I plan to just top dress at harvest with alfalfa, kelp, crab, neam, karanja, and of course EWC and a compost tea. Would the all-purpose be a good addition to my top-dress? or should I just make nutrient teas throughout if I need them?
> 
> Thanks!


Used and still have the Jobes Organic All-Purpose. Great stuff imo but i moved to an all-purpose with an NPK ratio of 5-2-4. Seems more suited to the plants needs.


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## CannaBare (Jun 17, 2014)

What is everyone's favorite botanical if they use them? Does anyone not see them as a necessity? I was thinking instead of fermenting I could top dress with the plants instead. Would that be OK?

And on the topic of SST's. I have barley. What other seeds do people like to use and see results with?


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## Below66 (Jun 18, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> What is everyone's favorite botanical if they use them? Does anyone not see them as a necessity? I was thinking instead of fermenting I could top dress with the plants instead. Would that be OK?
> 
> And on the topic of SST's. I have barley. What other seeds do people like to use and see results with?


1- Comfrey and Kelp seem to be kings around here.
2- Necessity? you want fire bud? feed it some fire plants.
3- Actually, it seems a lot of guys are just running everything through the worm bin or mulching with it nowadays.
4- SST's... corn is a good one.


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## Pattahabi (Jun 18, 2014)

I top drress my botanicals. I use pretty much anything I can get my hands on.


CannaBare said:


> What is everyone's favorite botanical if they use them? Does anyone not see them as a necessity? I was thinking instead of fermenting I could top dress with the plants instead. Would that be OK?
> 
> And on the topic of SST's. I have barley. What other seeds do people like to use and see results with?


Definitely top dress the botanicals imo! I love comfrey, nettles, dandelion, lavendar, horsetail, mint, pretty much whatever I can get my hands on. I thought it would be cool to make some FPE's. I used one once, didn't really care for it, so now they sit in the jars. I find I prefer the organic material in my pots.

As far as other seeds, I love all colors of corn, wheat, alfalfa, sunflower seeds, mung beans, fenugreek.

P-


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## thegreenbull (Jun 19, 2014)

thegreenbull said:


> What's the best soil recipe for rols I've seen many changes since the beginning of this thread


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## Below66 (Jun 19, 2014)

If only life were that easy my friend...


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## Pattahabi (Jun 19, 2014)

This is the Coot soil recipe I use. I suspect several use something very similar.

33% Sphagnum Peat Moss
33% Aeration
33% High Quality EWC and/or Vermicompost
(some poeple run 50%/25%/25% Ratios)

To each 1 c.f. of this mix I add the following:

1/2 cup organic Neem meal
1/2 cup organic Kelp meal
1/2 cup Crab meal

4 cups of some minerals - rock dust (See Below)

The Rock Dust Recipe
4x - Glacial Rock Dust
1x - Bentonite - from the pottery supply store
1x - Oyster Shell Powder - the standard product from San Francisco Bay
1x - Basalt


Depending on what you have available some adjustments can be made.

P-


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## thegreenbull (Jun 19, 2014)

Appreciate the input TE="Pattahabi, post: 10619115, member: 682510"]This is the Coot soil recipe I use. I suspect several use something very similar.

33% Sphagnum Peat Moss
33% Aeration
33% High Quality EWC and/or Vermicompost
(some poeple run 50%/25%/25% Ratios)

To each 1 c.f. of this mix I add the following:

1/2 cup organic Neem meal
1/2 cup organic Kelp meal
1/2 cup Crab meal

4 cups of some minerals - rock dust (See Below)

The Rock Dust Recipe
4x - Glacial Rock Dust
1x - Bentonite - from the pottery supply store
1x - Oyster Shell Powder - the standard product from San Francisco Bay
1x - Basalt


Depending on what you have available some adjustments can be made.

P-[/QUOTE]
Appr


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

LOVE DA ROLS!
*THE DONS ARE FROM THE SCHOOL OF THOUGHT THAT COCONUT FIBRE IS BETTER THAN PEAT MOSS, NO DIS TO OUR RIU BROTHAS, JUS SAYING OUR OPINION, COUPLE REASONS BEING:
-ITS A MUCH MORE SUSTAINABLE PROCESS,
-RETAINS INSANE AMOUNT OF WATER, (DEADLY MOISTURE BUFFER)
-BREAKS DOWN AS READILY AVAILABLE POTASSIUM,
-AND BUFFERS THE SOILS PH IN A GOOD WAY MON
[*WE JUST MAKE SURE TO GET WELL RINSED (LOW SALT) BRAND WISE, BOTANICAIRE PROBLY DA BEST]

*WE ALSO LIKE USING BROWN RICE, AND FIRMY BELIEVE GREENSAND IS UNDERATED AND LOVE INSECT FRASS… SO CALL US UNCONVENTIONAL 

AS A SIDE NOTE, LOVE DAT WE SEEIN' ROCK RECIPES!


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

@DonPetro 
CMON, BROSKIE MON, DROP A DON-CERTIFIED SUPER-SOIL RECIPE ON THESE CATS


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> LOVE DA ROLS!
> *THE DONS ARE FROM THE SCHOOL OF THOUGHT THAT COCONUT FIBRE IS BETTER THAN PEAT MOSS, NO DIS TO OUR RIU BROTHAS, JUS SAYING OUR OPINION, COUPLE REASONS BEING:
> -ITS A MUCH MORE SUSTAINABLE PROCESS,
> -RETAINS INSANE AMOUNT OF WATER, (DEADLY MOISTURE BUFFER)
> ...


I'm diggin the coco too. Doing half an half coco/peat right now, but gonna try an all coco run and see how that goes


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## Pattahabi (Jun 20, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> LOVE DA ROLS!
> *THE DONS ARE FROM THE SCHOOL OF THOUGHT THAT COCONUT FIBRE IS BETTER THAN PEAT MOSS, NO DIS TO OUR RIU BROTHAS, JUS SAYING OUR OPINION, COUPLE REASONS BEING:
> -ITS A MUCH MORE SUSTAINABLE PROCESS,
> -RETAINS INSANE AMOUNT OF WATER, (DEADLY MOISTURE BUFFER)
> ...


Several of these claims I have my doubts about. Can you tell me how coco 'breaks down' into potassium? I'm also curious how does coco buffer pH? And you're saying coco holds more water then peat? The sustainability would also be debatable imo. 

Much respect,
P-


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Several of these claims I have my doubts about. Can you tell me how coco 'breaks down' into potassium? I'm also curious how does coco buffer pH? And you're saying coco holds more water then peat? The sustainability would also be debatable imo.
> 
> Much respect,
> P-


I'm not sure about the potassium thing either. Have to check that out. Coco maybe doesn't buffer ph, but it's not nearly as acidic as peat and seems to be right in range with what marijuana plants like so the liming agents aren't as crucial. I would have to agree that coco is more sustainable than peat. It's a bi-product of an already existing industry, where as peat is harvested from bogs that take thousands of years to form, and the harvesting disrupts delicate ecosystems.


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## Pattahabi (Jun 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm not sure about the potassium thing either. Have to check that out. Coco maybe doesn't buffer ph, but it's not nearly as acidic as peat and seems to be right in range with what marijuana plants like so the liming agents aren't as crucial. I would have to agree that coco is more sustainable than peat. It's a bi-product of an already existing industry, where as peat is harvested from bogs that take thousands of years to form, and the harvesting disrupts delicate ecosystems.


Hey Stow, I don't consider peat to more sustainable because of the distance it has to travel. Coco certainly does not buffer pH. Do you know what the cec of coco coir vs peat is? I often hear conflicting numbers on this. I was thinking peat had about 50% more cec.



> Coir is more expensive than peat moss in the U.S. because of the cost of shipping it from Asia.


*Full Text*

p-


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey Stow, I don't consider peat to more sustainable because of the distance it has to travel. Coco certainly does not buffer pH. Do you know what the cec of coco coir vs peat is? I often hear conflicting numbers on this. I was thinking peat had about 50% more cec.
> 
> 
> *Full Text*
> ...


I believe you're right about the cec which is why I haven't eliminated it from my base. I still consider coco coir a more sustainable product all things considered. Yes it has to be shipped from over seas, or islands where coconuts are grown, but peat has to be shipped from northern Canada, and there are huge bogs discovered in Africa recently too.... and you know those will be exploited soon, so the shipping is a bit of a wash IMO. A product called "RePeat" looks promising too. It's supposedly just composted dairy cattle manure


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## Pattahabi (Jun 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I believe you're right about the cec which is why I haven't eliminated it from my base. I still consider coco coir a more sustainable product all things considered. Yes it has to be shipped from over seas, or islands where coconuts are grown, but peat has to be shipped from northern Canada, and there are huge bogs discovered in Africa recently too.... and you know those will be exploited soon, so the shipping is a bit of a wash IMO. A product called "RePeat" looks promising too. It's supposedly just composted dairy cattle manure


I accidentally said I don't think peat is as sustainable. In reality, I think it's a 6 one way, half a dozen the other. Maybe if sustainability is your main concern use leaf mulch and rice hulls? I think we'll run out of oil before peat lol.

This is from that same text, I don't know about peat harvested in the US, I'd need to look into that more:



> *Origins*
> Sri Lanka, which harvests 2.6 million coconuts annually, is the largest producer of coco coir, followed by the Philippines and India. Efforts are under way to establish a coco coir industry in Mexico. Most North American peat moss comes from 40,000 acres of Canadian sphagnum bogs; it also comes from fens, marshes and wetlands in Alaska, Florida, Michigan, Minnesota and 13 other states. It has long been harvested from bogs in Ireland and Scotland.


The cec issue would make me think it would be far easier to keep pH in balance - if that was a concern. pH and liming are of such little concern to me that I hate to even mention it.

Coco does wet initially easier, but from what I read, peat holds water longer. This is my anecdotal experience as well.

Maybe this is a stupid thought, but I always wonder how 'organic' those coconut shells are? Do they use fertilizers/pesticides on coconuts?

Also, peat is alive. Lots of microbes in there. I've even heard MM suggest throwing a pinch of peat in your compost for an added variety of micro organisms.


P-


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## hyroot (Jun 20, 2014)

coco vs peat. Utah state university crop physiology lab

http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf


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## Pattahabi (Jun 20, 2014)

That's a great article on coco vs peat Hyroot. I thought this was especially interesting:



> Since the pH is already close to 6, liming materials cannot be used because they would increase the pH above optimum. Handreck and Black says that “Therefore, all coir-based media must be amended with gypsum, which also overcomes their low sulfur status"


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## canadiankushman (Jun 20, 2014)

I'm from one of the places in Canada where they open strip mine the peat out of the pristine forests. Brings a tear to my eye.. 

All coco for this grower, amended with gypsum and dolomitic lime. It appears the girls are loving it!

Ck.


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## canadiankushman (Jun 20, 2014)

I went easy on both products mind you.. 

Ck.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> That's a great article on coco vs peat Hyroot. I thought this was especially interesting:


P, did you see in that same article where they mentioned that coir has an extremely high amount of K ....... so Don Teslas Potassium comment holds true.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2014)

canadiankushman said:


> I'm from one of the places in Canada where they open strip mine the peat out of the pristine forests. Brings a tear to my eye..
> 
> All coco for this grower, amended with gypsum and dolomitic lime. It appears the girls are loving it!
> 
> Ck.



I agree Ck. I have yet to hear a convincing enough argument for me to believe that using a bi-product of the coconut industry is more enviornmentally unfriendly than harvesting peat bogs.

The fact that I'm a Canuck, and the bogs up there get pillaged might make me a bit biased.


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## canadiankushman (Jun 20, 2014)

Now if they sail them coco husks here under wind-powered vessels we would all be just tickled..


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## DonPetro (Jun 20, 2014)

Don't doubt the Don's knowledge too much. Coir certainly does break down and in doing so releases K. Peat will bring your pH down over time if you are recycling your soil mix. Coir may not "buffer" pH so much but is certainly more forgiving and sustainable in the long term. Great topic though.


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## hyroot (Jun 20, 2014)

coco comes from many places. Alot come from Mexico and South America. Tropical regions. of course hawaii, fiji, tahiti, jamaica etc... All the coconuts in the markets locally around here all come from Mexico.


coco , when it does break down it does release potassium. I first heard that from Sub and that was his reasoning for not adding kelp to the original super soil recipe. I thought that was common knowledge in the organic section.. I've been saying that for years.






Pattahabi said:


> That's a great article on coco vs peat Hyroot. I thought this was especially interesting:



one of the authors of that study Dr. Bruce Bugbee is also the owner and founder of Apogee Instruments . He has quite a bit of studies on lighting / spectra.. effect of emmerson effect, infrared, uv lighting etc...


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Several of these claims I have my doubts about. Can you tell me how coco 'breaks down' into potassium? I'm also curious how does coco buffer pH? And you're saying coco holds more water then peat? The sustainability would also be debatable imo.
> 
> Much respect,
> P-


First of all I was stating this based on the Revs book.. TLO, see pages 51, 63, 89, 97 and 198..
my bro and him are buddies, i will be contacting him to ask him a couple things.. stay tuned for his response to back up his claims in his True Living Organcis book. 

Meanwhile..
@Pattahabi
1. ay mon, I no big Peat Bog Lover, and I aint trying to convert ya, but yes that thought was inaccurate Coir has no chemicals added. It is a natural bybroduct of the coconut industry, a seasoned husker can separate 2000 coconuts a day by hand… the fruits of that labour, which we can buy locally, at any store, and get shipped for cheap anywhere in North America (from Canada). It is 100% organic, bro. Grown in the sun, dried by the sun, rinsed by natural water to lower the salt content. I can't speak for all dee Dons, but I want Jamaican Coir. RAS TA FARIIIII

2. Coir is _naturally_ rich in potassium. it has high sodium too but the rinsing naturally washes the salts out. Coir, unlike coco peat which lasts 20 years, is very biodegradable so in organic growing it breaks down quite quickly, becoming its elemental profile, which is mainly potassium, great for flowering, of course.. even the worms and micro life eat it, and love it. so stop hating it, mon! hating is bad

if u want, go here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coir

3. As for the buffering, it just prevents dips due to its non-low pH. asking more from the Rev on this.. Here is what else it says on Wiki under buffering: "Once any remaining salts have been leached out of the coir pith, it and the coir bark become suitable substrates for cultivating fungi". (read as Myco Fungo for us) .. It continues, "Coir is naturally rich in potassium..The material's high lignin content is longer lasting, holds more water, and does not shrink off the sides of the pot when dry allowing for easier rewetting." Im trying to get facts on the water weight it holds and time. @Pattahabi Where did you read Peat holds water longer? 

4. RE adding peat to compost. Adding anything different to your compost is good, as long as the type of diversity you're striving for is congruent to the type of material you are adding, a great book on composting tweaks is THE RODALE BOOK OF COMPOSTING, it breaks down what the percentages of Compostion of all materials that you can compost, even different types of leaves like oak and poplar etc.. see page 118 for this awesome 5 page chart.. only problem is COIR and Peat Moss are two of the items missing in this otherwise very comprehensive chart. Must dig more.. But yea in my opinion I'm winning this argument. Especially considering this a soil recycling thread and your main evidence thus far against COIR is a from a SOILESS EXPERIEMENT. Gypsum is something we should all be adding anyway, its supposed to be a crazy enhancer of flavours and help terpene profiles truly blossom. According to the Rev's opinion and experience. I have yet to incorporate it but i plan to.. not because of what that study says either.. you can't compare soilless experiments to this argument, because the soil diversity is what it is all about.. try pull organic marijuana ROLS experiments for better compare and contrasts, that is irrelevant IMO, much respect tho, this is good for the game of organics


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> coco vs peat. Utah state university crop physiology lab
> 
> http://cpl.usu.edu/files/publications/factsheet/pub__9468201.pdf


Appreciate the digging my brotha, but i have to say, this was a funny thing to reference.. the study is flawed. 
They used no soil. We use soil. Its all about the soil here. There, They used 2 or 3 ingredients, we use over 20.
For two, they added stuff to Peat container (Lime) that they did not add to the Coir containers. ("cause it wasn't needed".. yet how does that effect the experiments. its apples vs oranges, they compare a 2 ingredient base vs a 3 ingredient base for the whole thing)
Third, they used HPS lights in that experiment, which for us organic growers, MH and LEDs are, according to the Revs personal experience, is supposedly more suited to nutrient uptake vs the HPS way with its commercial soup style feeding..


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

I'd like to see the EC (Electrical Conductivity) on some ROLS mixes, as opposed to these 2 and 3-ingredient soilless bases, and i would also like to know if those brands of coir are any good to begin with. I checked out the Sri Lanka website they say EC and pH is ideal, it holds 10x its weight in water, and is 80:1 Carbon to Nitrogen (just not sure if these guys make coir, it might be coco peat.. which would only widen the gap on its relevance but still, very good topic, we gotta hash this out


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

but then again, who cares about EC and pH if u have the best dope on the planet.. lol


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## DonPetro (Jun 20, 2014)

What's pH? Lol
@DonTesla shit son you be fired up, best posts yet! I gotta say though, as much as i respect the Rev and his opinions, there are still some of his methods i question. Its the Dons way now.


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> What's pH? Lol
> @DonTesla shit son you be fired up, best posts yet! I gotta say though, as much as i respect the Rev and his opinions, there are still some of his methods i question. Its the Dons way now.


hahahaha respect bro.

MuhammaDon Ali!
Floatin like da pollen,
stingin like a bee! 
defensive over mother,
nature, but pH? shit,
whats that, G?!


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## DonTesla (Jun 20, 2014)

I welcome any and all challenges. Lets shed fallacies, lets bust myths. Scariest thing about Doubting the Dons, is it just ups our Organic IQ, so we thank you for that...we care not to defend our position, per seh, mon...we care to defend the best position.. our way is therefore, truly, extremely and thoroughly organic. Its always changing, refining.. it gets more complex then its re-simplified, thus broken down to the best way mon, and by best, i mean the most super-natural (zero commercial bottled products), cleanest, tastiest, meanest, most exotic therapeutic medicine that money can NOT buy. 

What are the minimum effective doses, mon? How would this be emulated in nature, mon? Think of worm castings and insect frass and teas, how would this play out in nature? what about watering at different times, for example.. lets get natural wit it. If i could use the sun i would, but i even feel bad mainlining (love it too) and flipping girls early.. that being said one of the very next journals we are doing will be a single plant, Mainlined into a 64-cola beast! of the ever so touted, elusive, and renown Black Forrest, no less, unavailable to the general public for some reason.. wowwww. 16 weeks flowering time, and at least 60 - 80 days veg. She gonna be a project and a half.. extremely epic smoke I'm ensured. Big up to the Rev and the Petro for this one! Its about growth, and we GONE GROW!


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 20, 2014)

Good stuff guys. The nice part about the organics section is that we can disagree but it still stays civil. Much to learn, and this is how it happens.

P is new to some of you guys, but I know him from a couple other sites. He's a really good guy, and he really knows his stuff.... so when he talks I listen. I don't always agree, but I listen. 

Anyway, much respect to all of you organic ganja growers. Doin it up the right way.


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## DonPetro (Jun 20, 2014)

I agree, Patt is one hell of a grower!


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## Below66 (Jun 20, 2014)

Something just seems so right about using peat over coco, if a real live mix is what the aim is, shouldn't the logical choice be something that contained numerous plants decomposing for god knows how long over something like the fibrous material insides of a fruit. 

We are trying to mimic the forest, and using more decomposed forest-stuff just seems like the natural choice. After reading a bit and learning about it, it does seem coco is the more sustainable choice.... by far.


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## Pattahabi (Jun 20, 2014)

I'm really high and really tired. Just finished trimming a couple of white urkel plants. (I freaking hate trimming). So this is going to be a ramble lol.

Sorry, I probably came off the wrong way. I will respond to this. I think it's a great subject. I do appreciate everyones input because this is how we learn and grow. I started doing a little digging, and I will do more. I am slated to be afk for several days and preparing to be gone so I don't have as much time as I would like to spend on this now. I this it is a worthy topic that I would like to look into a little more.

From some of the academic papers I looked through kind of quick looks like people started seeing stunted plant growth from using more then 50% coco coir. I do very much agree with below66, there does seem to be something so right about using peat - to me it's the microbe life. I totally did not realize coco was high in potassium. Not a chance I would replace kelp with coir. My mentality in growing is not what can I add to my mix, but what can I remove. I want as few as ingredients as possible, with the maximum benefit.

I need to get a better cec on peat, but I found this on coir:

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/31/6/965.short



> Sources (coir) differed with respect to cation exchange capacities, with values ranging from 38.9 to 60.0


Again, briefly, looks like water holding and aeration ability are very dependent on particle size and location harvested.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/32/5/844.short



> Water-filled pore space (W-FPS) and water-holding capacity (W-HC) were larger and air-filled pore space (A-FPS) generally was smaller for CDM (coco) than SPM (peat).


http://www.publish.csiro.au/paper/EA02128


> Coir dust from Mexico showed lower water-holding capacity and higher aeration than peat, whereas air–water relationships in coir dust from Sri Lanka were similar to those in peat.


http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/40/7/2138.short


> Physical properties of coir dust were strongly dependent on particle size distribution. Both easily available and total water-holding capacity declined proportionally with increasing coarseness index, while air content was positively correlated. Relative hydraulic conductivity in the range of 0 to 10 kPa suction dropped as particle size increased. Coir dusts with a particle size distribution similar to peat showed comparatively higher aeration and lower capacity to hold total and easily available water.


https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0960852401001894?np=y


> The concentrations of available nitrogen, calcium, magnesium and micro-elements were low, while those of phosphorus and potassium were remarkably high (0.28–2.81 mol m−3 and 2.97–52.66 mol m−3 for P and K, respectively). Saline ion concentrations, especially chloride and sodium, were also high.


My ultimate goal will be to try and incorporate leaf mulch and other local amendments into my mix. My goal is always to be as sustainable as possible, without getting too crazy on it.

Do Rev and Subcool reuse their soil?

P-


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## Pattahabi (Jun 21, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Good stuff guys. The nice part about the organics section is that we can disagree but it still stays civil. Much to learn, and this is how it happens.
> 
> P is new to some of you guys, but I know him from a couple other sites. He's a really good guy, and he really knows his stuff.... so when he talks I listen. I don't always agree, but I listen.
> 
> Anyway, much respect to all of you organic ganja growers. Doin it up the right way.


Thanks Stow. I have much respect for yourself and others on here. Provided people are contributing sensible information (not the hydrostore, bro science, bs) I want to hear what people have to say. We all spend our time and energy typing on these forums, building our convictions. Sometimes we have to take a step back and re-examine why we do things. Still not buying coco replacing peat, but lets throw down the info and see what we can find.

P-


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## Pattahabi (Jun 21, 2014)

On a lighter note, we grow em big up here! (Kolossus from Sannie)


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## Below66 (Jun 21, 2014)

That bud is flying sky high, taking in the view before it takes you there.

Since coco breaks down faster than peat, does that mean it's better for a ROLS system? or worse? or it doesn't mean much as long as you keep adding to balance as you see fit? 

Patt, what are your thoughts on using the fresh stems and leaves from the plants themselves as mulch/topdress, BlueJay got me thinking there's no need to let the stuff decompose anywhere else when your mix is that live on something like the 12th round/cycle.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 21, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Thanks Stow. I have much respect for yourself and others on here. Provided people are contributing sensible information (not the hydrostore, bro science, bs) I want to hear what people have to say. We all spend our time and energy typing on these forums, building our convictions. Sometimes we have to take a step back and re-examine why we do things. Still not buying coco replacing peat, but lets throw down the info and see what we can find.
> 
> P-


I'm making 8cf+ of soil on Tuesday. No better time to do some side by sides. I will mix the peat and coir separate. 

Tote one= 2cf peat, 1.5cf my EWC, 1.5cf rice hulls.

Tote two= 2cf coir, 1.5cf my EWC, 1.5cf rice hulls.

I will add the same amendments to each bin, with the exception of liming agents. I would typically add a couple cups oyster shell flour, and 1 cup dolomite lime to the peat. P, any input here on either the liming agents, or the brand of peat to use (I typically use Premier)? To the coco coir I will add a couple cups of gypsum. DT, DP, any input on the coco tip?

I will have 6 clones ready from the same mother. 2 will go in the straight coir mix, 2 will go in the straight peat mix, and 2 will go in to a 50/50 mix. 

Any input from anyone before I throw this together on Tuesday is welcome. Maybe I'll start a new thread in this section on it....


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## Pattahabi (Jun 21, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm making 8cf+ of soil on Tuesday. No better time to do some side by sides. I will mix the peat and coir separate.
> 
> Tote one= 2cf peat, 1.5cf my EWC, 1.5cf rice hulls.
> 
> ...


This is above my paygrade. With that said, I'd be watching the balance of my amendments a little closer with the low cec of coir and the ability of the pH to climb with liming agents. The gypsum with coir makes perfect sense. If it were me (even if I did use lime) I would not on coir, or in very small amounts. Oyster shell, gypsum and rock dust. Obv K is a base cation. With the added K from the peat I'll be interested if you have Ca/Mg deficiencies? I tried a few rounds of super soil with heavy coco, and I always had problems. This was long before I knew much about cec though. I use premier peat. Like $12 at home depot. Far superior to pro-mix imo. Then you can add scoria, lava rock, rice hulls, etc for your aeration.

One other thing to maybe think about if you were using coco and perlite. Coco has a pretty low cec, and if I am not mistaken, perlite has no cec. 

Can't wait to see how this turns out Stow! I don't think I have ever seen a coco/peat side by side in a living organic soil. 

Here's a Super Lemon Haze bud from back in my super soil days:



Ok, now I really need to get packing!!! lol.
P-


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## hyroot (Jun 21, 2014)

rev does reuse soil. Sub dumps his soil in his veggie garden. Starts with a new mix every time . The problems you had with coco may have been due to not rinsing coco enough to rid of salts. Coconuts collect salts from ocean air / water.. I've been doing 50/50 coco soil when I make a new mix. No perlite or what ever is left in recycled soil. I haven't had any issues at all. I spent hours rinsing coco. Made sure the run off was completely clear. If the run off is reddish brown then it has not rinsed or flushed enough.


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## Below66 (Jun 21, 2014)

There's no way a properly taken care of mix won't get better with time. What's the basis for using fresh batch every time when one of the main strengths of this style is maturation?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jun 21, 2014)

Coir does seem to break down after a couple runs. So I'm guessing it has a higher CEC over time (composted) and loses it's sponge like texture? It basically becomes a wanna be peat. More of a short time fix if ya ask me.

I was wondering how ya'll test your soil?


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## greenghost420 (Jun 21, 2014)

you eat it n see how salty it is or isnt. go from there...


test for ph or npk or?


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jun 21, 2014)

^^^nute user^^^

Shoo shoo gnat


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## hyroot (Jun 21, 2014)

Below66 said:


> There's no way a properly taken care of mix won't get better with time. What's the basis for using fresh batch every time when one of the main strengths of this style is maturation?


I make a new mix every 2 years and include broken down old soil in the new mix. Or if I change pot size I make a new mix. I have a bunch of 7 gals chillin with 2 1/2 year old soil. Not in use. I plan on breaking it down and starting over. I'm over using fabric pots in flower. The outer edges dry too fast. My current batch is 5 gal. My next batch will be 7 and 10 gal plastic pots..


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## DonTesla (Jun 21, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm making 8cf+ of soil on Tuesday. No better time to do some side by sides. I will mix the peat and coir separate.
> 
> Tote one= 2cf peat, 1.5cf my EWC, 1.5cf rice hulls.
> 
> ...


/
what brand of COIR were u thinking of using, brada mon?? we use a well rinsed coir with really low salts so we don't even have to rinse


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Coir does seem to break down after a couple runs. So I'm guessing it has a higher CEC over time (composted) and loses it's sponge like texture? It basically becomes a wanna be peat. More of a short time fix if ya ask me.
> 
> I was wondering how ya'll test your soil?


There are labs in various cities for various tests, not too many in Canada tho, and the one in Alberta sends to the States, so The Dons test their soil by putting a plant in it. then we watch very closely. we want to see vibrant green growth, eleven finger leaves asap, tight stacked nodal growth, firm slightly praying leaves, firm green stems, no purple striping, no leaf curling, no clawing, no hermies of course, no early yellowing, no burning tips, no bleaching, no upper limpness,constant even growth, no bugs, webs, etc. if you use a coir mix, you need way less liming agents, and pH testing is needless. especially if u add only RO water. if you use a really good ROLS or soil mix well suited to ur strain and length of grow (and pot size) with slow release organic compounds, then the test is half passed...to enjoy really clean medicinal, coated in ur preference of types of crystals, while being a good yield for ur light and veg time, thats the true pass. basically the plant tells you everything. some strains will be more telling. you can use your sensitive strains to help you co-pilot your way to the cleanest runway ever..if you see issues, jus look em up, mon, you can always make the right adjustment.


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I make a new mix every 2 years and include broken down old soil in the new mix. Or if I change pot size I make a new mix. I have a bunch of 7 gals chillin with 2 1/2 year old soil. Not in use. I plan on breaking it down and starting over. I'm over using fabric pots in flower. The outer edges dry too fast. My current batch is 5 gal. My next batch will be 7 and 10 gal plastic pots..


So how long would you say they were lasting in between waterings, bro? once i set this air-cooled light up less air will suck thru the room, they should transpire less.. anyway, so you will use a smart pot (or 2) for Veg still, Hyroot? DP growing herbs in them, he is noticing dry spots in the 3 Gallons too. I still think they hold a TONNE of water compared to the 1 gallons tho, I'm happy to be done with the 1 gallons..for now


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I'm really high and really tired. Just finished trimming a couple of white urkel plants. (I freaking hate trimming). So this is going to be a ramble lol.
> 
> Sorry, I probably came off the wrong way. I will respond to this. I think it's a great subject. I do appreciate everyones input because this is how we learn and grow. I started doing a little digging, and I will do more. I am slated to be afk for several days and preparing to be gone so I don't have as much time as I would like to spend on this now. I this it is a worthy topic that I would like to look into a little more.
> 
> ...


Pat, mon! Great attitude... I am looking into pro's and con's of both.

one thing tho.. we are not looking to have more than 50% coir, so that's not quite valid support for this imo. Thats similar to me presenting a study that talks about growing lettuce in gypsum because that is something we will never ever do with our love for HUMUS.. 

but, academic papers is an interesting angle. kudos. I think someone went to university 
but bromon, Not really looking to replace kelp per se, either, just because it has some P naturally.. these assumptions, lets let them wilt brother ..the idea is to have symbiotic fungal-root relationships, right, as well as high micro life, .. so lets stay focused, shall we, friend, to me, peat is worse for veg and flower, vs coir which is a pro-fungi. that said, peat is better for cloning since its anti-fungi as stated here on this peat moss site: Fungus is a root killer. but myco fungi is a flower amplifier! symbiotic root relationships!
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/pros-cons-peat-moss-26860.html

that all aside, here is a bit of light shed on the *peat* industry's less than peachy impact on the world, :

_ "Peat moss cultivation from natural bogs destroys the organisms that live there, along with the slow-growing spongy substance. In fact, the decaying nature of peat moss makes it one of the least renewable substances for gardening uses; unless commercially grown, the natural bogs will not be able to regenerate their peat for a substantial amount of time. Along with damaging the local wildlife population, carbon dioxide releases into the air when these bogs are drained for peat moss removal. Adding more carbon dioxide into the air causes more pollution and damage to the ozone layer. Alternatives to peat moss, such as coir or coconut fibers, provide a more sustainable solution to your gardening needs."_
[source: http://homeguides.sfgate.com/peat-moss-disadvantages-38326.html]

Who cares about that though, thats tree hugger shit though, right?

More spicy, is this disease dish on peat: check this out.. a risk i care not to take:

_"Typically drained from a bog, peat moss is a natural substance formed from numerous decaying plants. As a result, any diseases that may have been active in the original plants are still present in the decomposing matter. It is possible to spread these pathogens into your garden if the peat moss is from a diseased portion of a bog. Since the peat moss retains a large amount of water, the pathogens move easily throughout the soil and into awaiting roots. It may be difficult to pinpoint your plant's demise since no exterior pests may be near the crop to create the particular damage"_
That being said mon, we just went through a crop not worrying about any pest or disease problems, SUPER HEALTHY.. glossy to the finish many leaves, incredible health. have u guys ever had pest or disease? with crazy air flow i can water at night if need be (leaving town in morning for example before lights on).. we just a little tiny unrelated heat issue early on for a tiny bit, until we had the proper insulated ducting put in and AC/dehimidier, but it was no big deal

We Dons want our base, and entire process, like you and Hy, to be as simple as possible too.
Yet effective and tuned in to the plants needs as much as humanly (and non-humanly) possible, mon.. just chopped a plant yesterday that was fed nothing but plain water (or nothing) for 86 out of its 87 day first-life, she is so coated, wow thats whats its all about. one super mild tea emulating some natural process in nature. basically what principle we are describing is minimum effective dose or the MED principle. Ok so lets apply that in theory. So we take one part recycled living organic soil, one part black gold (EWC), one part perlite, and one part coir.. viola. A super soil. Since we add it (coir) every time, it is better for me if it breaks down in the first couple grows, which it does. especially if micro life is high, and worms are in the pots.. peat moss lasts for 2 years plus and coco peat 20+, so coco coir is the ideal for me, otherwise the mix would get medium-heavy with pith that doesn't break down.. of course we are creatures of Neuro-Associations, opinion and habit, tho. so to me, i just think about the coconut, i recall my trip and how so many ppl made a living out its existence.. not just its ability to heal, moisturize, (oil), quench thirst, replenish electrolytes, but it can be used to help feed ppl, build bridges, even huts to live in! sheds! canoes! soaps, cosmetics, massage oils, fuels!!! horse shoes, brooms, its many horticultural uses, and many medical uses. Talk about complete utility.
*[sidenote ! BIG UP and RESPECT to hyroot for doing a side by side by side experiment,
*hats off from the Dons!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!]*
@DonPetro @DonTigro


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 22, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> /
> what brand of COIR were u thinking of using, brada mon?? we use a well rinsed coir with really low salts so we don't even have to rinse


Sanctuary Soils Dutchman is what it's called. It's pre rinsed. 2cf for $19.99. I'm pretty new to coir so if you have a suggestion for something different fire away bro


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

greenghost420 said:


> you eat it n see how salty it is or isnt. go from there...
> 
> 
> test for ph or npk or?


no need for pH tests if u use less liming agents but thats only possible with.. drumroll.. COIR!!


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## AllDayToker (Jun 22, 2014)

Lovin' all the info everyone.


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Sanctuary Soils Dutchman is what it's called. It's pre rinsed. 2cf for $19.99. I'm pretty new to coir so if you have a suggestion for something different fire away bro


Botanicaire is well rinsed and ensured to have low salts, atm its what we use bro, i believe it was around $20 or $25 for 25L? i threw the bag out but DP should know.
@DonPetro Botanicaire bro? for coir?

I think they sell it there too (USA) because i looked up the site and they used a lil different logo than up here in Canada on their .com site.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 22, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> There are labs in various cities for various tests, not too many in Canada tho, and the one in Alberta sends to the States.


Alberta? Sheeet, I'll let you guys know next time I head home and we can hook up. I have family in Red Deer and Edmonton. We're actually thinking of moving back....


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## DonPetro (Jun 22, 2014)

Yea its widely available. Good stuff. That bag you got is actually 50L. The brick i have that is also well-rinsed is 5kg and makes 50-60L. It cost $11. 
http://reindeersnatural.ca/coco_peat_block.htm


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

You guys seem big on the CEC.. can we explain lil bit why please? I don't need a CEC definition i just want to know how you value it exactly in relation to our organic passion, mon. 
The original testimant was coir is :
*more sustainable, (a natural side industry that doesn't destroy habit and regrows quickly..ie cut coconuts off trees, not the trees themselves, renew yearly),
*great for retaining water really well, and a good buffer too, and with that here is a lil cited blurb on its properties:
_'Coco peat is hydrophilic unlike sphagnum moss and can quickly reabsorb water even when completely dry. Coco peat is porous and cannot be overwatered easily.' thats moisture buffering right there imo, and as for pH i mentioned its more of a preventive thing, i.e. stops dips (buffering, or 'protection')_
*breaks down into plant avail flowering food.. K. and with 80:1 C:N ratio it also will create a lil slow release Co2 as well! 
but i would like to hear the pros or why its better one more time if you guys still think that.


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

15 alerts by 9am u know we getting things popping now


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

Hyroot gone take PROJECT PEA-COIR to DA NEXT LEVEL. a practical tangible level in the garden while we hash out the SCIENCE AND theory on paper


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 22, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> You guys seem big on the CEC.. can we explain lil bit why please? I don't need a CEC definition i just want to know how you value it exactly in relation to our organic passion, mon.
> The original testimant was coir is :
> *more sustainable, (a natural side industry that doesn't destroy habit and regrows quickly..ie cut coconuts off trees, not the trees themselves, renew yearly),
> *great for retaining water really well, and a good buffer too, and with that here is a lil cited blurb on its properties:
> ...


As I understand it, it's the mediums ability to hold on to ionic nutrients. When a microbe takes his morning dump, or is eaten (bad day), what remains is plant available, and we want our soil to have the ability to lock that up for later use. I'm fairly certain that peat has a higher cec than coco, but that can be overcome with a higher ratio of humus which has a very high cec. So if you add 25% EWC to a peat base, perhaps 33% would be needed for a coir base.


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> As I understand it, it's the mediums ability to hold on to ionic nutrients. When a microbe takes his morning dump, or is eaten (bad day), what remains is plant available, and we want our soil to have the ability to lock that up for later use. I'm fairly certain that peat has a higher cec than coco, but that can be overcome with a higher ratio of humus which has a very high cec. So if you add 25% EWC to a peat base, perhaps 33% would be needed for a coir base.


You are like Wayne Gretzky the way you answer organic questions STOW! a class act! big up


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## AllDayToker (Jun 22, 2014)

Started using alfalfa/kelp teas this round for veg and flower because of Stow's results. Super simple, and is keeping my plant super happy. With recycled soil I used I've only have fed them once so far. They are just stepping into flower so I'm sure I'll see a little increase in amount of feedings.

He knows his stuff no doubt.


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

So if we are going to be using CEC as a pivotal component to our mediums, does anyone else think it would be good to discuss the intimacies of optimal watering techniques. as to not just rinse away and erode a hard earned year or two or ten of depositing and methodical recycling ? with these intelligent pots, the sativas can drip a lot easier than the indicas, especially the 1 gallons .. the 3 gallon i find it will go to the bottom not leak out anywhere on the side..

Petro and I no longer foliar during veg OR flower, we just water slow til it drips, wait for at least 20 mins or more, water again till a couple drops on both sides (1Gal) or bottom is moist (3Gallon and up). use the hands, check the weight and texture too..


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> Started using alfalfa/kelp teas this round for veg and flower because of Stow's results. Super simple, and is keeping my plant super happy. With recycled soil I used I've only have fed them once so far. They are just stepping into flower so I'm sure I'll see a little increase in amount of feedings.
> 
> He knows his stuff no doubt.


whats ur soil recipe this round?!


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## AllDayToker (Jun 22, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> whats ur soil recipe this round?!


Well my soil started off as FFOF, but after recycling it over and over for years, and adding things all sorts of things, it's far from it. So I don't really know how much perlite/peat/ect is in it, but when I recently just came back for this the soil was pretty dry, so I figured it was low on microbe activity. For every gallon of soil I added a 1/2 tbsp of Epsom salt, and a 1/2 - 3/4 cup of ewc. Some old dried leaves, pretty simple, as well as adding microbe teas to boost the colony.

In the past though that dirt has had Jamaican bat guano and Peruvian seabird guano added to it, as well as some random compost.

I haven't bought dirt in years. Now it's pretty much just a half recycled half super soil type of deal now. Works great.


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## DonTesla (Jun 22, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> Started using alfalfa/kelp teas this round for veg and flower because of Stow's results. Super simple, and is keeping my plant super happy. With recycled soil I used I've only have fed them once so far. They are just stepping into flower so I'm sure I'll see a little increase in amount of feedings.
> 
> He knows his stuff no doubt.


i have a buddy that will sea of green his kush clones, flip them from day one he sees a single root, and they say you get SFA. he gets 1.5 lbs under a 1000w, and a 6 week flower, 1 day veg. no less. inferior genetics compared to what a lot of us are playing with, big blue, but thats lightning fast. the Dons, well, we are more the connoisseur type…we prefer incredible strains over anything, as long as its organic, of course, and yields are second to quality altho it also important to a brotha .. that being said now we're chopping from about a 4 week veg and 8.5 -9.5 week flower and we only fed one tea the whole time..instead of growth hormone in tea, we have high alphapha diet in the worm farm, and top dressed early on, weeks and weeks before finish.. pure water for 5.5 weeks i think to finish. thats how nuts the soil was. it was a hella warm. next batch we will be running cooler, and longer Veg, and 3 times the pot size


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## AllDayToker (Jun 22, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> i have a buddy that will sea of green his kush clones, flip them from day one he sees a single root, and they say you get SFA. he gets 1.5 lbs under a 1000w, and a 6 week flower, 1 day veg. no less. inferior genetics compared to what a lot of us are playing with, big blue, but thats lightning fast. the Dons, well, we are more the connoisseur type…we prefer incredible strains over anything, as long as its organic, of course, and yields are second to quality altho it also important to a brotha .. that being said now we're chopping from about a 4 week veg and 8.5 -9.5 week flower and we only fed one tea the whole time..instead of growth hormone in tea, we have high alphapha diet in the worm farm, and top dressed early on, weeks and weeks before finish.. pure water for 5.5 weeks i think to finish. thats how nuts the soil was. it was a hella warm. next batch we will be running cooler, and longer Veg, and 3 times the pot size


Damn those are some amazing results!! Yeah I've been feeling like a noob growing this AK48 seeing all these genetics out there. Just got to get my hands on some!

That's pretty much what I'm trying to get back to, soil that needs minimal number of feedings, and not because it's super amendend up of course, why else would we be in the living soil thread haha. Even though I've only fed one nute tea with alfalfa/kelp, I've fed probably 3 microbe/ewc teas. Just trying to super boost the amount of guys in there.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 22, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> You are like Wayne Gretzky the way you answer organic questions STOW! a class act! big up


Haha! More like Charlie Huddy


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## hyroot (Jun 22, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> So how long would you say they were lasting in between waterings, bro? once i set this air-cooled light up less air will suck thru the room, they should transpire less.. anyway, so you will use a smart pot (or 2) for Veg still, Hyroot? DP growing herbs in them, he is noticing dry spots in the 3 Gallons too. I still think they hold a TONNE of water compared to the 1 gallons tho, I'm happy to be done with the 1 gallons..for now


i have a couple smart pots in veg but mostly plastic. I think fabric pots are better for veg and plastic pots better for flower. You want minimum of 7 gal for plastic. With my 5 gals I'm watering every other day. I'm constantly aerating water and brewing various teas. I'm upping pot size next batch. i dont have to water so often plus more roots more fruits...


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## AllDayToker (Jun 22, 2014)

Veg in smart pots, flower in plastic pots. That's a pretty awesome thought actually.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 22, 2014)

hyroot said:


> i have a couple smart pots in veg but mostly plastic. I think fabric pots are better for veg and plastic pots better for flower. You want minimum of 7 gal for plastic. With my 5 gals I'm watering every other day. I'm constantly aerating water and brewing various teas. I'm upping pot size next batch. i dont have to water so often plus more roots more fruits...


Good idea. Makes a lot of sense.... might have to try that


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## CannaBare (Jun 23, 2014)

I am trying to increase the cec of my mix, I only have rice hulls for aeration. Would It be better to use pumice, lava rock, or what someone smarter than me uses? I would like to make compost teas less often when I plant. I read cec helps the soil to hold nutrients.

So what would everyone use to increase cec?


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## hyroot (Jun 23, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> I am trying to increase the cec of my mix, I only have rice hulls for aeration. Would It be better to use pumice, lava rock, or what someone smarter than me uses? I would like to make compost teas less often when I plant. I read cec helps the soil to hold nutrients.
> 
> So what would everyone use to increase cec?


I.just mix in coco. It provides enough aeration plus a good enough of cec. Pots will dry out faster than using rice hulls, pumice or perlite. In return promotes very fast root growth and plant growth. Possibly speeds up metabolism. You can do that with just IR lighting though.


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## CannaBare (Jun 23, 2014)

So I can mix coco with peat moss, compost, and rice hulls? I was looking into switching my base to coco. Does coco need any aeration amendments? 



hyroot said:


> I.just mix in coco. It provides enough aeration plus a good enough of cec. Pots will dry out faster than using rice hulls, pumice or perlite. In return promotes very fast root growth and plant growth. Possibly speeds up metabolism. You can do that with just IR lighting though.


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## DonPetro (Jun 23, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> I am trying to increase the cec of my mix, I only have rice hulls for aeration. Would It be better to use pumice, lava rock, or what someone smarter than me uses? I would like to make compost teas less often when I plant. I read cec helps the soil to hold nutrients.
> 
> So what would everyone use to increase cec?


Incorporate lots of humus into your soil mix. Finished, well-aged compost would be best. I use a humus-based soil as part of my base mix along with coir and it works great. Plus its a tenth the cost of FFOF.


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## hyroot (Jun 23, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> So I can mix coco with peat moss, compost, and rice hulls? I was looking into switching my base to coco. Does coco need any aeration amendments?


yep. My mix is peat moss, coco, castings, compost and nutes /amendments. The only perlite or pumice is what's left over from 2 year old recycled soil. I match the same amount of recycled soil as peat. Then add everything else and that's just when ever I make a new mix. Also coco takes roughly about 3 batches to break down.


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## earthling420 (Jun 24, 2014)

What material provides the best aeration? Should I mix a couple together? Im going to be mixing coco and peat, how does coco peat work? Thanks guys, im very new to organic and growing so just trying to figure this out so I can make my soil and begin the organic journey


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## CannaBare (Jun 24, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> What material provides the best aeration? Should I mix a couple together? Im going to be mixing coco and peat, how does coco peat work? Thanks guys, im very new to organic and growing so just trying to figure this out so I can make my soil and begin the organic journey


I read this: http://forum.grasscity.com/coco-coir/1104950-about-coco-coir.html

Very informative. I do not quite understand how the drainage of coco works yet either so I bought some to play with. 15.00 for 5kg is ok with me for a tester!


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## Below66 (Jun 24, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> What material provides the best aeration? Should I mix a couple together? Im going to be mixing coco and peat, how does coco peat work? Thanks guys, im very new to organic and growing so just trying to figure this out so I can make my soil and begin the organic journey


Seems most guys end up using 2 types of aeration, most popular being lava rock, pumice, and rice hulls, with perlite falling down the ranks by the day. Good leaf mold compost will let you be able to drastically reduce aeration components.


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## DonTesla (Jun 24, 2014)

Correction, correction, we know Hyroot is one hell of a serious organic cat and he drops knowledge like bombs when he wants, but i meant MASSIVE LIGHT on da STOW and GROW with tha COCO / PEAT / COCO-PEAT SIDE by SIDE expo, BIG UP .. i think Stow you be tote mixing today, yea?!


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## DonTesla (Jun 24, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> I read this: http://forum.grasscity.com/coco-coir/1104950-about-coco-coir.html
> 
> Very informative. I do not quite understand how the drainage of coco works yet either so I bought some to play with. 15.00 for 5kg is ok with me for a tester!


Nice Dig, Canni!
_"Unbelievably, coco coir can hold eight to nine times its own weight in water! More importantly, coco coir holds a lot of air, in fact even when saturated it typically still holds around 22% air. In this respect it is superior even to rock wool,.."
_
but this what i liked:
_"Did you know that coco coir possesses antifungal and root promoting properties?.. coir has a great ability to suppress and protect plants from phythium and phytophthora, two very unpleasant root diseases"_


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## DonTesla (Jun 24, 2014)

Does it inhibit symbiotic myco fungi relationships at all though, or does those little mycelium sheaths that form nah need very much space to get freaky wit da root tips? must astral travel into da microbe-world for a peak, mon.
(or.. i guess i could read teaming with microbes, haha)


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## DonTesla (Jun 24, 2014)

Below66 said:


> Seems most guys end up using 2 types of aeration, most popular being lava rock, pumice, and rice hulls, with perlite falling down the ranks by the day. Good leaf mold compost will let you be able to drastically reduce aeration components.


So it's much about da _quality_ of your compost and castings to begin with..and how much humus it has. 

(For dee Dons, we are very pleased with da extreme quality of thee results from our latest run..1.65$ humus-base bagsoil + (high-humus compost on way) + fresh ALFAFA+FED superWORM castings + volcanic glass and rice + amendments like greensand + (aerated) RO water x all 95 days + insect frass (once or twice) + only one mild tea (and with constant Co2 from a 3 layer worm farm)= uber frosty, still glossy in parts, One gallon success with just 400W, and thats with 9 and 10 week strains in smart pots)


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## DonTesla (Jun 24, 2014)

9 weeks in flwr tmrw, this girl is fox tailing like crazy up top spitting out tonnes of white hairs still.. she has a good week left, mon, phew, maybe more. this shot is just to attest to the health natural organics can bring. Peep da gloss, mon! even glossy higher up..Those dead leaves will not let go btw. They gooood to the last drop it seems, they hang in on strong


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## Old Busted Butt (Jun 24, 2014)

You can 


CannaBare said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> I am really low on EWC and have a ton of rabbit poo. I lucked out and found a ton of poo for cheap, really clean, no hay in two bags! I couldn't believe it. Could I substitute the poo for the EWC? Why does it have to be EWC? I have always wondered that.
> 
> Thanks!



You can use rabbit manure directly to plants and your worm bin. No composting needed. Only manure you do not have to compost. And that info is in worm culture books. EWC is better, but if you cannot feed the rabbit crap to worms, safe to use feed directly. Good luck either way.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 25, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Correction, correction, we know Hyroot is one hell of a serious organic cat and he drops knowledge like bombs when he wants, but i meant MASSIVE LIGHT on da STOW and GROW with tha COCO / PEAT / COCO-PEAT SIDE by SIDE expo, BIG UP .. i think Stow you be tote mixing today, yea?!



Yezzir

Harvested 2.5cf of castings
 

Brewed up a compost tea to wet the peat/coco mixes down with


Got busy mixin on the tarp
 


Everything is done and will be left to sit for 6 weeks. I will start a thread in the organics section here when the clones get plugged in.......


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## DonTesla (Jun 25, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yezzir
> 
> Harvested 2.5cf of castings
> View attachment 3188353
> ...


like a boss.


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## CannaBare (Jun 25, 2014)

Can I ask where you found the information about the CEC of coco coir, Hyroot? I can't seem to find evidence it has a high CEC, and from what I have found it seems peat is actually higher?


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## hyroot (Jun 25, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Can I ask where you found the information about the CEC of coco coir, Hyroot? I can't seem to find evidence it has a high CEC, and from what I have found it seems peat is actually higher?


Utah state and oxford journals. Of course peat has higher cec. Coco has better and /or equal to other aeration products


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## earthling420 (Jun 26, 2014)

ok cool thanks. how do I find highest quality ewc?what's the highest quality besides homemade. Same for compost. Im gonna look into composing and try to work on that. idk about an earth worm farm though. What is the best storage for letting the dirt sit? So excited to mix it soon and use it for flower this round


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## hyroot (Jun 26, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> ok cool thanks. how do I find highest quality ewc?what's the highest quality besides homemade. Same for compost. Im gonna look into composing and try to work on that. idk about an earth worm farm though. What is the best storage for letting the dirt sit? So excited to mix it soon and use it for flower this round



best store bouught ewc imo

http://www.fertilizeronline.com/wormcast.php

if you are in Cali this place carries them. They have locations all over Cali'. they also carry malibu bu's blend compost which is pretty good.

http://www.hydroscape.com/

I store everything in rubbermaids. Target has18 gals for $4.50. Price does vary from area to area.

Imo worm bins are lot easier to deal with than a compost bin. A compost bin you have to turn compost everyday and it smells horrible. Takes forever to break down.. A pile covered with hay outside is easier, still has to be turned frequently. With worm bins the worms do all the work. It smells earthy.. You just add food for the worms. then use a sifter screen when its time to harvest. to separate the worms from the vermicompost.


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## earthling420 (Jun 26, 2014)

hyroot said:


> best store bouught ewc imo
> 
> http://www.fertilizeronline.com/wormcast.php
> 
> ...


How can you tell what's good ewc and compost? Thanks for the links mate. 
Cool, any particular area to store them? What's good or bad to do while it sits? 
Hmm, nice, im liking the worm idea now


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## DonTesla (Jun 26, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> ok cool thanks. how do I find highest quality ewc?what's the highest quality besides homemade. Same for compost. Im gonna look into composing and try to work on that. idk about an earth worm farm though. What is the best storage for letting the dirt sit? So excited to mix it soon and use it for flower this round


sure is da fastest way, da worms.. start a little farm with ur seeds and they will benefit immensely throughout the very first crop more than one might guess. The very first one. best place to store it is where the air will be sucked into vicinity of your ladies, ideally, dam good Co2. for fun, I built a wood table with slits cut out, and my bro built a wooden 3 layer farm, i can keep it in the tent or near intake outside, its amazing.

As for composts, although piled in pyramid-shapes they would require nah LABOUR, no wood or nails,
-and can eat property waste
-and kitchen waste 
-even bathroom waste, (hair and urine are boosters, ha)
still, you looking at 6 weeks min. (if u use black plastic and sun)
-and a full season (months) for a 5x5x5 "framed-pile"
-but you will have insane humus and diversity, and you will have created it, which is satisfying an overall obvious for longterm, if you have the space)
-hurdle that wit a lil creativity for first run

Meanwhile, a pound of worms, JUST ROLL WIT ME FOR A SEC.. perhaps sourcable today locally somewhere by you, WOULD, hands down, yield the HIGHEST POSSIBLE QUALITY WORMCASTINGS on the planet. . for you. unless you have someone minutes away also making castings. Within a week, they produce!  Thats what they turn bananas into, which they love. The Dons farm their own, and wow, although Gardner & Bloom is our fav cause its almost pure pellets, our own are.. well they are on a super diet and the results are looking favourable, mon.

If you have your own worms somewhere nearby, they produce no smell but tonnes of Co2 and tonnes of custom topdressing or (super) base-additive. So we get the rare growth hormones in right here. Why wait for da teas, right, haha.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 26, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> best place to store it is where the air will be sucked into vicinity of your ladies, ideally, dam good Co2. for fun, I built a wood table with slits cut out, and my bro built a wooden 3 layer farm, i can keep it in the tent or near intake outside, its amazing.


Frig, that's a good idea. I could leave the bins right outside the flower room and take advantage of the CO2 they give off.

Good lookin out DT!


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## earthling420 (Jun 26, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> sure is da fastest way, da worms.. start a little farm with ur seeds and they will benefit immensely throughout the very first crop more than one might guess. The very first one. best place to store it is where the air will be sucked into vicinity of your ladies, ideally, dam good Co2. for fun, I built a wood table with slits cut out, and my bro built a wooden 3 layer farm, i can keep it in the tent or near intake outside, its amazing.
> 
> As for composts, although piled in pyramid-shapes they would require nah LABOUR, no wood or nails,
> -and can eat property waste
> ...


Ya im not sure if I'll make a compost right now, and it sounds like the worm farm is better? 
That's gnarly man, nice worms! 
I really wanna make one now.


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## earthling420 (Jun 26, 2014)

sorry if it's a stupid question, but I have some pot sprouts going in FFLW right now, but the dirt sat outside for 3 months. It looks different than the new dirt, and I was wondering if the dirt is still good? Should I use the new dirt?


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## DonPetro (Jun 26, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Frig, that's a good idea. I could leave the bins right outside the flower room and take advantage of the CO2 they give off.
> 
> Good lookin out DT!


Ah yes, DT has reached Jedi status. Welcome to the Rebellion.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 26, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> sorry if it's a stupid question, but I have some pot sprouts going in FFLW right now, but the dirt sat outside for 3 months. It looks different than the new dirt, and I was wondering if the dirt is still good? Should I use the new dirt?


Do you have access to compost or worm castings? If so, I'd brew up a compost tea and wet your soil down with that. That will jump start the old soil with a fresh army of microbes, and the soil will be as good as new.

BTW, there are no stupid questions. Fire away


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## a senile fungus (Jun 26, 2014)

I can't wait to get started.

Will keep you all posted.


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## canadiankushman (Jun 26, 2014)

Little off topic but still related to ROLS, can someone point me in the right direction to some info or a grow journal where someone does a perpetual bloom cycle in their beds/tubs of soil? 

Thx! 

Ck.


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## AllDayToker (Jun 27, 2014)

Sounds specific lol.

Anyways I swear I heard of one person that plants multi plants in just one big plant bed, just don't remember the name. Maybe someone here will.


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## thegreenbull (Jun 27, 2014)

Ive Been lurking this thread since March /April been taking extensive notes and getting my needed materials and just when I thought I was on my way into the game it seems the rules changed and along comes the great debate about peat moss coco/coir and aeration perlite/ricehulls please advise


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 27, 2014)

thegreenbull said:


> Ive Been lurking this thread since March /April been taking extensive notes and getting my needed materials and just when I thought I was on my way into the game it seems the rules changed and along comes the great debate about peat moss coco/coir and aeration perlite/ricehulls please advise


Use what you have. IMO both peat and coco are fine mediums. If you go with coco there's no need to lime it, but adding some gypsum would be a good idea. Sulfur is apparently needed with coco. If you go with peat keep in min it's quite acidic and you will need to counter that with something like oyster shell flour. As for aeration use what you have or can find locally. I use rice hulls, but they're a bitch to find around here. Perlite is fine as well


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## thegreenbull (Jun 27, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Use what you have. IMO both peat and coco are fine mediums. If you go with coco there's no need to lime it, but adding some gypsum would be a good idea. Sulfur is apparently needed with coco. If you go with peat keep in min it's quite acidic and you will need to counter that with something like oyster shell flour. As for aeration use what you have or can find locally. I use rice hulls, but they're a bitch to find around here. Perlite is fine as well


Thanks


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## hyroot (Jun 27, 2014)

some new coco coming from Brazil through inda gro. I'll be testing some. Picking up the coco in a little over a week. Its grown inland, away from the ocean. Very low salt content from the start.. They harvest from outer husk and wash, then dry in the sun for 24 months. Its already fluffed and rinsed and ready to go. That's what I was told. They said with their testing they got 30% better growth with tomatoes and hops vs coco tek and bio buzz and canna.. They are using it with their aquaponics too. Growing cannabis and veggies

edit:

was just emailed this from inda gro . They sent out the coco sample to be analyzed.This is the summary. 

Soil Analyses Plant Analyses Water Analyses
WALLACE LABORATORIES, LLC


The Coco Coir material has moderate acidity with a pH of 6.04. Salinity is low at 0.27 millimho/cm. Soluble boron is safe at 0.16 part per million in the saturation extract.
The organic matter content is 95.1% on a dry weight basis. The carbon:nitrogen ratio is high at 87.5.
The NPK content is 0.00 - 0.02 - 0.25. Each cubic yard contains 0.01 pound of nitrogen, 0.15 pound of phosphorus oxide and 1.53 pounds of potash. The major nutrient content is potassium and calcium. Available aluminum is modest. The concentrations of non-essential heavy metals are low. Total available sodium is modest. SAR (sodium adsorption ratio) is 0.7.
The acid-soluble fraction which is the fraction of potentially plant available minerals is 1.2% on a dry weight basis. The acid-insoluble fraction which is predominantly consists of sand, silt and clay is 3.7% on a dry weight basis.
The material does not have a off odor.
The bulk density is 612 pounds per cubic yard. The percent moisture is 68.9% on a dry weight basis.


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## DonTesla (Jun 27, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Ah yes, DT has reached Jedi status. Welcome to the Rebellion.





st0wandgrow said:


> Use what you have. IMO both peat and coco are fine mediums. If you go with coco there's no need to lime it, but adding some gypsum would be a good idea. Sulfur is apparently needed with coco. If you go with peat keep in min it's quite acidic and you will need to counter that with something like oyster shell flour. As for aeration use what you have or can find locally. I use rice hulls, but they're a bitch to find around here. Perlite is fine as well


@DonPetro What you think about this apparent need for sulphur with coco, all mighty soil mixer, and spirit protector of the ganja farmers?


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## DonTesla (Jun 27, 2014)

RAISING. DEE. BAR. BOYS. (by dat mon, i mean, knowledge pool) BIG UP! wit dat said, what are da final CEC numbers for COIR and PEAT. we could then say the CEC of COCO-PEAT 50-50 is the average of the two.


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## DonPetro (Jun 27, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> @DonPetro What you think about this apparent need for sulphur with coco, all mighty soil mixer, and spirit protector of the ganja farmers?


Well, st0w mentioned gypsum. Gypsum has lots of sulphur as do most rock minerals(broken down over time). However, most sulphur is supplied by microbial activity through the decomp of organic matter. It can also be supplied by rain-water in the form of sulphur-dioxide i believe.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 27, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Well, st0w mentioned gypsum. Gypsum has lots of sulphur as do most rock minerals(broken down over time). However, most sulphur is supplied by microbial activity through the decomp of organic matter. It can also be supplied by rain-water in the form of sulphur-dioxide i believe.


That was mentioned in one of the links posted. I added it to the coco base I threw together..... So I hope that info is correct! Lol


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## AllDayToker (Jul 1, 2014)

So I was out in my pool yesterday, and we have four very large evergreens growing in our backyard, they are probably 30-40ft tall, I saw some giant mushrooms growing underneath them all over, never noticed them before.

I was thinking, wouldn't this make a good compost soil? Or a good addition to my ROLS? 

Pretty sure I'm going to add it and see how it does on my next run of plants unless anyone has concerns. I'm thinking the soil would be pretty rich, and seems like fungal activity is strong.


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 1, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> So I was out in my pool yesterday, and we have four very large evergreens growing in our backyard, they are probably 30-40ft tall, I saw some giant mushrooms growing underneath them all over, never noticed them before.
> 
> I was thinking, wouldn't this make a good compost soil? Or a good addition to my ROLS?
> 
> Pretty sure I'm going to add it and see how it does on my next run of plants unless anyone has concerns. I'm thinking the soil would be pretty rich, and seems like fungal activity is strong.


I would be concerned about the ph level under evergreens............have it tested by your local uni/ ag department first IMO.


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## a senile fungus (Jul 1, 2014)

Or just add a bit as an inoculant? Does it work that way? I'm still learning...


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## AllDayToker (Jul 1, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> I would be concerned about the ph level under evergreens............have it tested by your local uni/ ag department first IMO.


Seems like nothing I can't test myself with an experiment. If the pH is too low I can always add lime if I see a benefit with the addition of the pine tree soil.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 1, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> Seems like nothing I can't test myself with an experiment. If the pH is too low I can always add lime if I see a benefit with the addition of the pine tree soil.


Give it a whirl ADT. On the plus side (like you said) there looks to be a lot of fungal activity, and adding indigenous microbes to your soil is a good thing. As PSUAGRO pointed out though, pine needles and the like are very acidic, as would be the soil at its base from the litter fall so just keep an eye on your ph.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 1, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Or just add a bit as an inoculant? Does it work that way? I'm still learning...


Yep. That's basically what that would accomplish. A lot of knowledgeable folks believe in adding beneficial indigenous microbes as they have adapted to your local climate/conditions and would be a good inoculant.


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## earthling420 (Jul 1, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Do you have access to compost or worm castings? If so, I'd brew up a compost tea and wet your soil down with that. That will jump start the old soil with a fresh army of microbes, and the soil will be as good as new.
> 
> BTW, there are no stupid questions. Fire away


Thanks man I'll do that!  

In that case, when the soil is baking, is it better to have it in the sun?

So if iI mix coco and peat, I do still need perlite or other aeration, but do I need to add lime or anything for ph? 
Thanks!


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## DonPetro (Jul 1, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> Thanks man I'll do that!
> 
> In that case, when the soil is baking, is it better to have it in the sun?
> 
> ...


Have you checked out page 1?


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## earthling420 (Jul 1, 2014)

Im a lil confused. For Coot's recipe, coco would not qualify as the aeration correct? Would it be with the peat moss?


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## earthling420 (Jul 1, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Have you checked out page 1?


yes but ill read again. I tend to forget some of what I read


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 1, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> In that case, when the soil is baking, is it better to have it in the sun?


No. "Cooking" is a bit of a misleading term IMO. The soil doesn't need to cook, or heat up to any degree. What needs to happen is you have to give the microbes present in the compost that you added time to break down the organic inputs (kelp meal, etc). Until the microbes have processed this stuff it is not plant available. So the temperature in which you let the soil sit only matters to the extent that the microbes in the mix are impacted. If you put your soil outside in the middle of January in Michigan you'd likely kill off or force dormancy on the population. So, any moderate temperature range will be fine. Mine sits in my basement.



earthling420 said:


> So if iI mix coco and peat, I do still need perlite or other aeration, but do I need to add lime or anything for ph?


Yes, I would add some type of aeration bits to whichever medium you chose at a ratio of 25%-33%. As for liming agents, that should be commensurate to the amount of peat you are using. I add 1 cup per cf of peat. I like oyster shell flour as it seems to be the only natural source of unadulterated calcium carbonate. There are other options if you can't find this locally.




earthling420 said:


> Im a lil confused. For Coot's recipe, coco would not qualify as the aeration correct? Would it be with the peat moss?


Coco would be considered a replacement for peat. You can use it instead of, or in conjunction with peat. Keep in mind that it's CEC is going to be somewhat lower than peat. That's an important point, but I'm not sure how important. They measure CEC and give it a number score. Humus registers at 200. Peat is anywhere between 100-200 depending on the source. Coco coir comes in somewhere around 80. 

I look at those numbers a bit like owning a fast car. If your Porsche can reach 250mph, that's very impressive but not very useful. When are you ever going to need to drive that fast? So to me the question is not how high a mediums CEC is, it's how high do I NEED it to be? I'm going to be doing a side x side grow using both coco and peat in a few weeks. I'm anxious to see the results .....


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## earthling420 (Jul 1, 2014)

stowandgrow said:


> No. "Cooking" is a bit of a misleading term IMO. The soil doesn't need to cook, or heat up to any degree. What needs to happen is you have to give the microbes present in the compost that you added time to break down the organic inputs (kelp meal, etc). Until the microbes have processed this stuff it is not plant available. So the temperature in which you let the soil sit only matters to the extent that the microbes in the mix are impacted. If you put your soil outside in the middle of January in Michigan you'd likely kill off or force dormancy on the population. So, any moderate temperature range will be fine. Mine sits in my basement.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow thanks stow! Great info and you as well as others in this thread seem to know your stuff, definitely better than me!

So would maybe 120F tops be too much heat? For the sitting process?

Damn nice man, Im gonna be following that  Im thinking about doing the same thing coco/peat. Would be able to compare our results a lil too.

Ahh, i like where you're going with the cec 

Don, thanks freshened up my page 1 skills, needed to bad lol


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## DonPetro (Jul 1, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> Wow thanks stow! Great info and you as well as others in this thread seem to know your stuff, definitely better than me!
> 
> So would maybe 120F tops be too much heat? For the sitting process?
> 
> ...


Lol...i was just bustin your balls man. Lots of great info there.


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 1, 2014)

I agree with using oyster shell flour over dolo/horti lime..........too much mag "tightens" the soil and causes issues with organics IMO.

If your soil is extremely acidic don't use it with MJ...........maybe cutting it with char would help, but still i would be leery.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 1, 2014)

This is the information I found on the cec of coco.

http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/31/6/965.short



> Sources (coir) differed with respect to cation exchange capacities, with *values ranging from 38.9 to 60.0*


Depending, you're talking best case scenario coir has 60% of the cec of peat, and worse case less then 20% the cec.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 1, 2014)

Just finished chopping these down a couple of weeks ago. G13/Hashplant on Deck.



P-


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## DonPetro (Jul 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Just finished chopping these down a couple of weeks ago. G13/Hashplant on Deck.
> 
> View attachment 3193614
> 
> P-


G13/Hashplant...from which breeder?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 1, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> G13/Hashplant...from which breeder?


Hey DP! It's from Hazeman. I'm just running a small summer grow of three plants with one male to do a little pollen chucking. I'd love it if anyone had any experience with these genetics. I've ran one Grape13 and two elephant stompers from Hazeman. They were good, but nothing I kept around. Hoping for something better out of these!

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 2, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> This is the information I found on the cec of coco.
> 
> http://hortsci.ashspublications.org/content/31/6/965.short
> 
> ...



Yes, peat has a higher CEC than coco coir. That's been established. My question is how much does that matter? If CEC were the only concern then we would all be growing in straight compost. It's not though. Structure, porosity, water retention, etc are all considerations. Having 25%-33% of the base consisting of worm castings also helps make up for what coir lacks as far as cec too.

So peat has a higher cec, but what does that mean to us? Compost teas innoculate the soil, but when is enough enough? If I have 100 trillion microbes in my container, do I need to keep applying teas to reach 150 trillion? Does that further my goal of growing a healthy, happy plant or is it unnecessary? This is what I'm hoping to find out. I'm going to be trying RePeat soon, and I'd like to make some leaf mold as well. That seems very promising, but obviously takes some time to make.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yes, peat has a higher CEC than coco coir. That's been established. My question is how much does that matter? If CEC were the only concern then we would all be growing in straight compost. It's not though. Structure, porosity, water retention, etc are all considerations. Having 25%-33% of the base consisting of worm castings also helps make up for what coir lacks as far as cec too.
> 
> So peat has a higher cec, but what does that mean to us? Compost teas innoculate the soil, but when is enough enough? If I have 100 trillion microbes in my container, do I need to keep applying teas to reach 150 trillion? Does that further my goal of growing a healthy, happy plant or is it unnecessary? This is what I'm hoping to find out. I'm going to be trying RePeat soon, and I'd like to make some leaf mold as well. That seems very promising, but obviously takes some time to make.


I'll be interested if anyone answers this question on the other site. So what are you thinking the minimal cec is for a productive living organic soil is then?

Edit: shredder did post a good link that may answer some of your questions. I'm really digging the mobile version on my computer - so much cleaner imo.



> In general, the higher the CEC, the higher the soil fertility.


http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cation-exchange_capacity


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 2, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I'll be interested if anyone answers this question on the other site. So what are you thinking the minimal cec is for a productive living organic soil is then?


That's above my pay grade! Based on my observations since cutting my peat portion of the base with 50% coco coir I'm *guessing* that it's not as high as what some may think. It would be nice to take some soil samples up to Michigan State U or something and have them analyzed, but really I'm more interested in how the plants respond than figuring out the CEC of my medium. Coot raised some interesting points on the enviornmental impact of coir, so that causes me to pull back on the reins a bit. If leaf mold holds up to everything else, I would have to believe that would give you the best of both worlds no? High in carbon and organic matter, high in BIM's, free, virtually no footprint ..... just takes some time to decompose (and lots of leaves).


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## Pattahabi (Jul 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's above my pay grade! Based on my observations since cutting my peat portion of the base with 50% coco coir I'm *guessing* that it's not as high as what some may think. It would be nice to take some soil samples up to Michigan State U or something and have them analyzed, but really I'm more interested in how the plants respond than figuring out the CEC of my medium. Coot raised some interesting points on the enviornmental impact of coir, so that causes me to pull back on the reins a bit. If leaf mold holds up to everything else, I would have to believe that would give you the best of both worlds no? High in carbon and organic matter, high in BIM's, free, virtually no footprint ..... just takes some time to decompose (and lots of leaves).


I absolutely think leaf mold is a better option if sustainability is of high importance, no comparison. So if you leave out sustainability issue, what are the major reasons for using coco over peat? Better water retention? Not from the reports I have seen. Peat can be hydrophobic? You shouldn't be letting your pots dry out in the first place. Better pH buffer? I have no coco, no lime, and no pH problems. In fact, I don't think I've seen really anyone running a true living organic soil have pH problems? I look at the new people who have never tried living organics, and they are not having pH problems. I can see everyone is pro coco on this site, but I just don't see it, even after researching some of the claims.

Just my opinion,
P-


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 2, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I absolutely think leaf mold is a better option if sustainability is of high importance, no comparison. So if you leave out sustainability issue, what are the major reasons for using coco over peat? Better water retention? Not from the reports I have seen. Peat can be hydrophobic? You shouldn't be letting your pots dry out in the first place. Better pH buffer? I have no coco, no lime, and no pH problems. In fact, I don't think I've seen really anyone running a true living organic soil have pH problems? I look at the new people who have never tried living organics, and they are not having pH problems. I can see everyone is pro coco on this site, but I just don't see it, even after researching some of the claims.
> 
> Just my opinion,
> P-



I agree with you on leaf mold. I will be xperimenting with it in due time, and if it's comparable to peat/coco then it will be a no-brainer for me.

I'm not really "pro-coco", I'm just trying a different base. Coot, MM, et al are VERY pro-peat, and that's fine, but I don't buy for one second that it's the be-all end-all. I do have serious reservations about using peat because a) it's harvested from a delicate eco-system, b) I'm from the country where most of it gets harvested, and c) it's very acidic. I know that you haven't run into any issues with funky ph, but I have, and it cost me dearly. Probably a noob mistake at the time, but still a consideration for me.

As I said earlier, Coot's point about the enviornmental drawbacks of coir makes me a little less keen on using it, but all things considered IF it stacks up just as well as peat in my garden, then at a minimum I will continue to use it 50/50 with peat, or may even transition to using it exclusively until I can introduce leaf mold in to my garden. Coot's point was hypothesizing what deforestation *may* happen due to the increasing demand for coco products, where as the peat harvesting is actually taking place, and has been for decades. There's a ton of carbon sequestered in those bogs and the impact of releasing that in to the atmosphere doubles down on the importance of not using it for me. At this point I view coco as the lesser of two evils.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 2, 2014)

I recycle my soil, so I feel the sustainability issue is even less of a factor. Now don't get me wrong I'm far from someone that wants to destroy ecosystems for convenience of my indoor growing. Just like you were getting at with cec, you have to draw a line somewhere. I too will be looking into leaf mold, I'm just a little strapped for space and time atm.

Seems every time I see someone with a pH problem, they have a crappy humus source. Not always the case, but whose to say the peat is to blame? Yes, it may be acidic, but we are letting the soil food web dictate pH correct? I have only had pH issues with coco, and surely I had a low humus content, low microbial population and low cec.

Also interested on your take of C:N in the soil per MM. This is not something I had previously thought of, but really interesting. 

P-


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## Pattahabi (Jul 2, 2014)

> As discussed above, large volumes of water are used to wash (and buffer) coir pith. This is generally achieved by hosing or spraying water over mounds of coir pith placed either directly on soil or on concrete floors. *The run-off from these processes will contain high salts, chemical, microbial and physical contaminants*. *If the run-off is untreated it will contaminate surface water, groundwater and soils. The issue can be resolved by washing on concrete floors, collecting the run-off and treating the effluent, which was observed in some of the factories.*


If you go to page 11 it starts on some of the problems of the industry where this is quoted from.

Thanks to MikeH for posting this.
P-

Edit: I am unfamiliar with the coco coir production process. This article says coir is either separated mechanically, or is done by retting. I thought DonTesla said people did this by hand? I found this on retting:



> The most widely practiced method of retting is called *water retting*, by submerging bundles of stalks in water. The water, penetrating to the central stalk portion, swells the inner cells, bursting the outermost layer, thus increasing absorption of both moisture and decay-producing bacteria. Retting time must be carefully judged; under-retting makes separation difficult, and over-retting weakens the fibre. In double retting, a gentle process producing excellent fibre, the stalks are removed from the water before retting is completed, dried for several months, then retted again.[1]
> 
> *Natural water retting* employs stagnant or slow-moving waters, such as ponds, bogs, and slow streams and rivers. The stalk bundles are weighted down, usually with stones or wood, for about 8 to 14 days, depending upon water temperature and mineral content.[1]
> 
> *Tank retting*, by contrast, employs vats usually made of concrete, requires about four to six days, and is feasible in any season. In the first six to eight hours, called the leaching period, much of the dirt and colouring matter is removed by the water, which is usually changed to assure clean fibre. Waste retting water,* which requires treatment to reduce harmful toxic elements before its release*, is rich in chemicals and can be used as liquid fertilizer.[1]


How do they ensure the toxic elements are not hazardous when doing natural water retting?


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 2, 2014)

I thought for people with a sustainability issue, that peat was worse than cocco???? guess I was wrong

I use this company's container base mix(up-potting next round) cause their local and against using peat for the same reasons..........

http://www.organicmechanicsoil.com/


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 2, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> If you go to page 11 it starts on some of the problems of the industry where this is quoted from.
> 
> Thanks to MikeH for posting this.
> P-
> ...



P, I think you're completely disregarding a couple obvious points in your quest to discredit coco coir. 1) coco coir is a bi-product of an already existing industry. Instead of wasting the husks, they are turned in to a soiless medium. Peat bogs on the other hand are expressly mined (around here) for the purposes of making Sphagum peat moss. 2) the shortcomings of the coconut industry can mostly be addressed, and improved upon. Unfortunately places that coconuts are native to are often 3'rd world countries and their approach to environmental issues are shoddy across the board, not just in the coconut industry. Strip mining peat bogs is a pig you can't put makeup on however. These ecosystems that took thousands of years to form are mined, and the sequestered carbon is released in to the atmosphere. No getting around it.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 2, 2014)

I can assume you will be giving up the coconut water that you currently use on your plants (and recommend others to use)?

Supporting such a dirty industry isn't very organic.


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> P, I think you're completely disregarding a couple obvious points in your quest to discredit coco coir. 1) coco coir is a bi-product of an already existing industry. Instead of wasting the husks, they are turned in to a soiless medium. Peat bogs on the other hand are expressly mined (around here) for the purposes of making Sphagum peat moss. 2) the shortcomings of the coconut industry can mostly be addressed, and improved upon. Unfortunately places that coconuts are native to are often 3'rd world countries and their approach to environmental issues are shoddy across the board, not just in the coconut industry. Strip mining peat bogs is a pig you can't put makeup on however. These ecosystems that took thousands of years to form are mined, and the sequestered carbon is released in to the atmosphere. No getting around it.


So I suppose you use all blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, cotton seed meal in your mixes since they're already biproducts? You crush your own insects for chitin, or do you ship crab? Still buying ahimsa neem? YO MON get sustainable! I’m sure those 2 compressed bales of peat that went into my mix that I’ll be using for the next umpteen years just depleted the bogs!

Maybe they’re using a little more though?


> Thus peat appears to be an effective and inexpensive method for removing Cd from pH and carbonate adjusted industrial wastewaters free of strong chelating agents.


http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/25040236?uid=3739864&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21104244694567

Right on, if sustainability is your priority, I applaud you. I'm sure I will see sustainability as the top concern for each amendment and process you incorporate into your growing. I will anxiously await your closed loop mmj system!



st0wandgrow said:


> I can assume you will be giving up the coconut water that you currently use on your plants (and recommend others to use)?
> 
> Supporting such a dirty industry isn't very organic. ￼


No, I’ll use my USDA certified organic coconut water powder, ahimsa neem, etc. I’m not the one on my sustainability pulpit.

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 3, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> So I suppose you use all blood meal, bone meal, feather meal, cotton seed meal in your mixes since they're already biproducts? You crush your own insects for chitin, or do you ship crab? Still buying ahimsa neem? YO MON get sustainable! I’m sure those 2 compressed bales of peat that went into my mix that I’ll be using for the next umpteen years just depleted the bogs!
> 
> Maybe they’re using a little more though?
> 
> ...


I'm not on a "sustainability pulpit" either, but it is a consideration for me. Not so for you?

I don't understand why you're getting so upset over this. Do you own stock in peat moss or something?? I'm running a side x side to see how coco stacks up against peat. I will do the same for RePeat and leaf mold. Environmental issues are indeed an important part of this for me, but I'm not going to use something that is completely inferior. Maybe at the end of this SPM will be head and shoulders better than the other options and I will continue to use it. I'm going to weigh the pro's and con's and do what's best for me. 

Either way, I'm kinda done with this back and forth with you. I feel like I'm back on the LOS forum arguing with Arlo.


----------



## AllDayToker (Jul 3, 2014)

We all know who's right.


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 3, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm not on a "sustainability pulpit" either, but it is a consideration for me. Not so for you?
> 
> I don't understand why you're getting so upset over this. Do you own stock in peat moss or something?? I'm running a side x side to see how coco stacks up against peat. I will do the same for RePeat and leaf mold. Environmental issues are indeed an important part of this for me, but I'm not going to use something that is completely inferior. Maybe at the end of this SPM will be head and shoulders better than the other options and I will continue to use it. I'm going to weigh the pro's and con's and do what's best for me.
> 
> Either way, I'm kinda done with this back and forth with you. I feel like I'm back on the LOS forum arguing with Arlo.


Sounds like your on a pulpit to me, especially after Coot, MM and Tad all said SPM was a better medium. Good luck with your experiments.



> RE: Coir in general
> 
> Salinity is the biggest issue and with the crap sold through hydroponic garden centers (another great oxymoron) knowing much about where a specific product came from is pretty much impossible - as usual with these clowns.
> 
> ...


But as you said, Coot and MM are just pro Peat. Obviously your knowledge far exceeds theirs.

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 3, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Sounds like your on a pulpit to me, especially after Coot, MM and Tad all said SPM was a better medium. Good luck with your experiments.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So much butt-hurt.

Where did I say my knowledge far exceeds theirs? I didn't. I respect their opinions, however I don't have a man-crush on them and I don't hang on their every word. I like to get my hands dirty and try stuff for myself. If it turns out that peat is the best option, I will openly state that and continue to use it.

The last word is yours arlo


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## Pattahabi (Jul 3, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> So much butt-hurt.
> 
> Where did I say my knowledge far exceeds theirs? I didn't. I respect their opinions, however I don't have a man-crush on them and I don't hang on their every word. I like to get my hands dirty and try stuff for myself. If it turns out that peat is the best option, I will openly state that and continue to use it.
> 
> The last word is yours arlo


Oh no, you said above you were done having this conversation, but yet you keep posting lmao - who's butt hurt?

@AllDayToker I'm confused to your opinion? Are you using coco or peat moss, combination? And what are your thoughts/experiences?

P-


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## DonPetro (Jul 3, 2014)

Peat...coco...blah...blah...blah. Its only half your base at most either way. If you recycle your soil mix(everyone should) i think sustainability becomes even less of a factor, either way. What really matters is quality inputs and a fresh source of diverse humus/compost/vermi-compost. Lets talk about something else now. What are the benefits of fish-derived meals(fish bone meal, fish meal?) as opposed to non?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 3, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Peat...coco...blah...blah...blah. Its only half your base at most either way. If you recycle your soil mix(everyone should) i think sustainability becomes even less of a factor, either way. What really matters is quality inputs and a fresh source of diverse humus/compost/vermi-compost. Lets talk about something else now. What are the benefits of fish-derived meals(fish bone meal, fish meal?) as opposed to non?


Agreed, thank you DP.

I always like to know what is going in my soil. Sometimes 'organic' ingredients really don't sound too appealing when I take a closer look. Fish meal sounds like a pretty distgusting product to me. Here's a few quick articles and quotes to get the ball rolling:

https://encrypted.google.com/books?hl=en&lr=&id=K7pt5N0RLGEC&oi=fnd&pg=PA311&dq=fish meal production&ots=vFE_NQv18O&sig=2xhXKTcGR4YMD7J0P088T5bE5cc#v=onepage&q=fish meal production&f=false

I keep a lot of information in my personal databse, so I often use quotes from people I consider far more knowledgeable then myself (Coot, Microbeman, Gas, etc). Take it for what it's worth. Anyone can be wrong about something.



> Here’s is how fish is processed after the fillets are removed……
> 
> The fish carcasses are ground to a slurry and loaded into stainless steel tanks where enough water is added that allows the bone powder to float to the top where it is skimmed off, cleaned and screened = fish bone meal (Phosphorus)
> 
> ...


I do use a little fish bone meal in my soil, but I feel there are other good alternatives if you want to source something more local to you.



> RanchoDeluxe
> 
> When the factory is setting up to make either fish hydrolysate or fish emulsion the first few steps are identical.
> 
> ...


P-


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 4, 2014)

Just blend up a couple of feeder fish and be done with it=====problem solved....lol


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## foreverflyhi (Jul 4, 2014)

A old school friend of mine simply digs 5ft deep puts a couple fish carcasses in there. Does it every year, seems to work good for him!


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## Pattahabi (Jul 4, 2014)

I'm curious what people use outside to kill thrips. They're attacking my damn tomato plants. I've always heard not to spray spinosad outside because of it's effect on beneficials, especially bees. Then I came across this.



> Semi-field studies with bumble bees have also been conducted. Spinosad was applied when bees were not flying. Bees were allowed to forage on the treated plants when spray deposits had dried. *The findings from these studies indicated that, when used in this way, spinosad was completely safe to foraging worker bees. On inspection of the hives, it was seen that no significantly adverse effects on queen or brood had occurred.* It can be concluded that spinosad is highly selective to beneficials and pollinators making it an ideal insect control product for use within glasshouse IPM programmes.


*Full Text*

I'd be curious if anyones has any thoughts on either outdoor thrips remedies, or discussion about using spinosad outside!

Many thanks!
P-


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 4, 2014)

Neem oil/agsil 16h/dish soap combo gets glowing reviews online........but thrips are a pita..

Hanging reflective(CD's) material around your plants also seems to piss off flying insects........never tried this though

If spinosad doesn't effect beneficial insects.....I see no problems with it

Good luck with your tomatoes.....lots of egg shells grower


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## a senile fungus (Jul 4, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Hanging reflective(CD's) material around your plants also seems to piss off flying insects........never tried this though


I heard the same of hanging pennies in a bag of water.

We tried it last year on the farm, it works. We have a sandwich bag of water and 10-15 pennies per bag hanging at each corner of each large hanging barn door into the barn. It works to keep the flies out of the building...

Something about the reflection messing with their orientation, I would imagine...

Afterthought: clean the pennies well! So they're shiny!


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## Pattahabi (Jul 4, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Neem oil/agsil 16h/dish soap combo gets glowing reviews online........but thrips are a pita..
> 
> Hanging reflective(CD's) material around your plants also seems to piss off flying insects........never tried this though
> 
> ...


I tried a mixture last night of some mint and rosemary blended in water. Then I used that water to add some emulsified karanja at 2tsp per gal of each silica (protekt) and karanja oil. Today thrips were running around on the plants like nothing had happened. Maybe it was poor dosages, but it didn't seem to do much of anything. 

I'm still a little hesitant to spray spinosad outside. I'll probably try a few other things and see what responses I get about spinosad. I really don't want to add to the bee problem.

I always liked the fly jars in which they crawl in, but can't get out. Well, I like em till you have to clean em out lol. 

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Jul 4, 2014)

Try mixing it up for the next weeks, start it light, increase dosage towards the end.
Example
Day 1 garlic
Day 2 stinging nettle
Day 3 cillantro
Day 4 garlic//cillantro
Day 5 aloe/sillica neem
yall get the picture.


Also try moving the plant (assuming its not in the ground)

Im blessed to rarely have bug problems. Ive taken in sick plants and nursed them back pretty quick.

Firm believer in
Healthy medium = healthy plant


Pattahabi said:


> I tried a mixture last night of some mint and rosemary blended in water. Then I used that water to add some emulsified karanja at 2tsp per gal of each silica (protekt) and karanja oil. Today thrips were running around on the plants like nothing had happened. Maybe it was poor dosages, but it didn't seem to do much of anything.
> 
> I'm still a little hesitant to spray spinosad outside. I'll probably try a few other things and see what responses I get about spinosad. I really don't want to add to the bee problem.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 4, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Try mixing it up for the next weeks, start it light, increase dosage towards the end.
> Example
> Day 1 garlic
> Day 2 stinging nettle
> ...


Rotation is definitely the key imo. I actually did use both garlic and cilantro. The cilantro might have helped a little, I think the garlic was just a little seasoning for them lol. These are under a tree and surrounded by other vegetation. I might have to try upping the dosages of the botanicals, or go with spinosad at night. Then again, I have been wanting to experiment making a chitosan spray. I have some alfalfa seeds soaking now.


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 8, 2014)

Howdy folks...

Hope everyone here's been happy, healthy, & booming out copious amounts of high quality, sustainable, organic meds.

After battling with scale (worst bug ever, if you weren't already aware), here's what I've been up to...

Two days after transplanted into the bloom bloom room...


 
 

Day 1 of bloom...
 
 
 
 
 
 
ROLS Life Bitches!


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 8, 2014)

Good 'ol Lemon Skunk. She needed to stretch her legs. 300+ gallons of recycled organic living soil should do the trick.
 

View of the setup...
 
 
 

These beautiful ladies pray 24/7...


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 8, 2014)

One more thing..
I can't take all the credit for this. 
Shout out to my partners. 
We're totally bout to crush this shit!


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 9, 2014)

After posting a few pix, I went back and read a few recent posts...

In my opinion, there are a few measures that need to be taken to keep pests in check when on the ROLS diet.. 

Companion plants

Living mulch

Numerous strains

Pattern?

Get as far away from a monoculture as possible!

Only bring outdoor organic materials inside during the warmer part of the year to combat bringing in ass tons of larva.

Be sure to have a high humus content in your soil, a diverse mineral package, lots of oxygen, fungi, bacteria, and go easy on the animal products. 

Brew a plethora of different concoctions for foliars and soil drenches on the reg.

I keep seed sprout teas of all types going at all times.

Aloe & diatomacious earth

Young coconut water

Neematode/protozoa teas

Fungal dominant AACTs

Bacterial dominant AACTs

Balanced fungal/bacterial AACTs

Kelp/Alfalfa meal

Pest deterring brews.. 

Switch it up constantly...

I typically use three or so of the ingredients listed below together in one brew, making a different combination every time. DE is the only one I use basically every time, in low doses, as pests will not develop an immunity to it, it emulsifies, and has a high mineral content, most of which is silica. Also make sure to include an oily plant in each one that will be used as a foliar, to serve as a wetting agent, spreader sticker, or whatever you call it. You can also just go buy a bottle of Dr Bronners soap. 

Neem
DE
Hot peppers (Ghost peppers.. Shit's like tear gas.. Be cautious.. Turn off fans.. Wear a mask.. Watch those eyes)
Tobacco
Mint
Garlic
Lavender
Rosemary
Thyme
Oregano
Cilantro
Basil
Dill
Dandelion
Stinging nettles
African chrysanthemums (aka pyrethrum, just plant some in your garden)


No more small containers! I suggest nothing smaller than 20 gallons really. Get a 20 gallon fabric pot, fill it with recycled organic living soil, & you will see what I mean. 

Keep that top layer of soil moist at all times. If you don't have time to spray it down 3-5 times a day, go get some Blumats. 

Keep it between 50-80% humidity.

Fresh air!

Play some music in your garden.

Blaze one with your plants on occasion. 

Sit and talk to them regularly.

Run your fingers through their hair every day. The ladies like to be caressed. 

Keep the negative energy out of the garden. They can sense it. 

Have fun!


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## Pattahabi (Jul 9, 2014)

I think most people use potassium silica to emulsify. I have my doubts about DE being an emulsifier. Someone please correct me if somehow it is.


> An *emulsion* is a mixture of two or more *liquids* that are normally immiscible (nonmixable or unblendable).


Saponins are needed for the surfactant of foliars. I use aloe or yucca for this.

P-


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I think most people use potassium silica to emulsify. I have my doubts about DE being an emulsifier. Someone please correct me if somehow it is.
> 
> 
> Saponins are needed for the surfactant of foliars. I use aloe or yucca for this.
> ...


I have looked for facts backing up DE as an emulsifier, but found none. 

I can't see how it isn't. 

I've used it as such for a couple of years now, and my results have finally, really began speaking for themselves. 

If it ain't broke, I'm definitely not fixing it.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 9, 2014)

Bob, what makes you think DE is an emulsifier? I'm certainly no chemist, but I'm not seeing any indicators it is an emulsifier. Myself and many others have used pro-tekt and Agsil to emulsify neem and karanja, which is what I would recommend.

I love the big ROLS beds. How long have you been running them? I also love all the variation of aeration materials. Can I ask what you are using in your mix?

Looking good! Keep the pictures coming! (maybe just sclae them down a little? lol) 

Peace!
P-


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2014)

I went to the expo. They didn't bring the coco. They shipped me enough for a 4 gallon pot +/-, I was expecting more. its called Cocomor. I will just mix this with soil in a 10 gal.. I kind of wanted to try a 10 gal of straight coco on one plant. 




I'll post pics of actual coco tonight. I get better light under the induction and my camera sucks.. so have to wait for lights to turn on.


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## Chronikool (Jul 9, 2014)

^^^^^^^WOW...coco....


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> ^^^^^^^WOW...coco....



you may have missed the past few pages of coco vs peat for sustainable and renewable sources. I'm testing out this coco which is supposedly better than other coco for many reasons. If you check back a few pages of the analysis summary I posted. Me along with severall other people have been mixing coco with peat and others doing straight super coco.


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Bob, what makes you think DE is an emulsifier? I'm certainly no chemist, but I'm not seeing any indicators it is an emulsifier. Myself and many others have used pro-tekt and Agsil to emulsify neem and karanja, which is what I would recommend.
> 
> I love the big ROLS beds. How long have you been running them? I also love all the variation of aeration materials. Can I ask what you are using in your mix?
> 
> ...


Are the pix huge or something? Sorry bout that. I've been posting from my mobile, so I don't know what it looks like on the PC. 

From what I can gather, (barely passed chemistry 15 years ago.. No chemist here either) silica itself emulsifies. DE is, depending on the source, 60-90% silica. That's my logic. It's the only thing in a powdered form that I can ad to my ghetto vortex brewer and within moments it's completely dissolved. 

Also part of my logic... It's been in my arsenal since I've began to see results surpass my expectations. It's not broke. I'm not fixing it. Plus the only thing I buy in a bottle anymore is molasses, and I'm working on cutting that bottle out as well. 

The ROLS bed was designed last year. It's 4'×8'×18", and has an air manifold on the bottom, underneath a layer of lava rock & leftover hydroton, covered in landscape fabric, then 300+ gallons of ROLS. The air manifold is hooked up to a pond air pump (high output, high efficiency), that proceeds to pump oxygen into the soil 24/7. 

In the ROLS we have...

Super old cow, chicken, rabbit, & horse shit. The horse is in the highest quantity, and it was like 4-5 years old, and just slathered in mycelium. 

Lil peat, lil coco, lil leaf mold

A few years worth of composted kitchen scraps. (We produce about two gallons of compostable kitchen scraps in 24 hours) 

Alfalfa hay, kelp meal, fish bone meal, & crab meal

Oyster shell, glacial rock dust, basalt, calcium bentonite, French green clay, red Moroccan clay, & dolomitic lime

A little bit of an array of different Guanos, and a little DE

Expanded shale, diatomite rock, lava rock, a little perlite, & a little granite

Shit loads of worms (from my compost)

The only thing that's been added since it was mixed up the first time is minerals.

There's a lot going on there I know, but there's nothing very hot (NPK) in there in anything close to a high dose. 

Throw out your PH and PPM meters, stop buying shit, and let these plants grow themselves!


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## Pattahabi (Jul 10, 2014)

Love the mix @boblawblah421! Sounds like quite the masterpiece. One of these days I'd love to grow in a big bed like that. 

I pretty much empty out for the summer, but I have a few G13/hp in 15 gallon no-tills - pretty much straight Coot's mix. 



Peace!
P-


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## Pattahabi (Jul 10, 2014)

Transplanted some seedlings today. 



P-


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## Mohican (Jul 10, 2014)

Wow! Those are such white roots!


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 11, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Love the mix @boblawblah421! Sounds like quite the masterpiece. One of these days I'd love to grow in a big bed like that.
> 
> I pretty much empty out for the summer, but I have a few G13/hp in 15 gallon no-tills - pretty much straight Coot's mix.
> 
> ...


She looks happy and healthy.

I wish everyone would get down on the ROLS way.

It's the only way.


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 14, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> She looks happy and healthy.
> 
> I wish everyone would get down on the ROLS way.
> 
> It's the only way.


Willing and Wanting, but... life goes ways, and stuff. 

This is my most lurked thread... anywhere really, because this would be my preferred method. It's just that a lot of it is difficult to read, some of it is difficult to understand, and there are lots of conflicting opinions, endless details, and plenty of ego. This thread fries my brains faster than almost anything else i've tried to read. Idk if it's the language or the format or what. 

Regardless, i like what you guys are doing here, and intend to follow the path... if i can find it!


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## boblawblah421 (Jul 14, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> Willing and Wanting, but... life goes ways, and stuff.
> 
> This is my most lurked thread... anywhere really, because this would be my preferred method. It's just that a lot of it is difficult to read, some of it is difficult to understand, and there are lots of conflicting opinions, endless details, and plenty of ego. This thread fries my brains faster than almost anything else i've tried to read. Idk if it's the language or the format or what.
> 
> Regardless, i like what you guys are doing here, and intend to follow the path... if i can find it!


Pick through it all, & take the ideas that sound right to you. 

You can't go wrong.


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## x713 (Jul 14, 2014)

could someone please explain to me what ph is?i seem to forgot what it means after being expose to the natural truth .its funny watching people talking about phing in organics i havent touched a pen or phup/down in 5 years lol


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## hyroot (Jul 14, 2014)

x713 said:


> could someone please explain to me what ph is?i seem to forgot what it means after being expose to the natural truth .its funny watching people talking about phing in organics i havent touched a pen or phup/down in 5 years lol


even when I did hydro over 6 years ago. I never did any ph then. I always had good results. I thought my hydro was organic then too. I know.better now. Ph products always seemed like a gimick and pointless to me. Those ph up down will burn your skin and that doesn't sound good at all for plants. Anyone that has grown for quite a while can almost smell any change in the water. I use tap water. I can smell when the chlorine is gone or not when aerating. My local water doesn't use chloromine..


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## x713 (Jul 14, 2014)

cats are to busy trying to be scientist concoctions.i did coco to and used maxibloom with no ph and produced some good plants.it also bother me when i see people us bottle *organic*line like general organics lol how do you even fall for that .

@hyroot i see the whole lime in soil a big gimmick to.i never used it before maybe because we go though a lot of eggs so i have tons of egg shells to compost who knows.

alot of people try way to hard,i simplify my grow i use good compost/ewc that i make,aloe,silica,enzymes*barley*.i might splurge out and get some pul power see whats its all about,been a while since ive gone to the hydro store


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## hyroot (Jul 14, 2014)

I only used lime when I did super soil before I learned it takes years for lime to break down. Coco, compost, teas, egg shells, etc... Are enough for a buffer.


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 14, 2014)

I think one of the issues i'm having with understanding some of this stuff, is that i'm a "why?" learner: if i don't understand _why_ i'm being told to do something, it "does not compute," and i can't use the information until it makes sense. But once i understand why, and it makes sense, it's permanently etched into my cortex, and i'll never forget it. There's a lot going on here, lots of pieces and parts and things that can be substituted for one reason or another, lots of details and debate over preference, and the 'whys' get lost amidst the static (at least in the format occurring here). 

It's inevitable that if i say "tell me the simplest way to get started," someone will either post a link, or say "google it." And further inevitable that i will get into the instructed process, only to encounter dissenting opinions from others of seemingly equivalent experience, insisting that i'm doing something wrong (lol). So, in order to avoid costly mistakes (not just with money, but time and energy as well), i want to fully understand just what it is i'm supposed to be doing, before i do anything. If i can understand the fundamentals, well enough to form a preference where there is no "right" answer, then i can begin sourcing materials, and eventually acquiring them, and eventually getting started... and then someday, eventually (lol), i will have a "cooked" ROLS ready to actually plant something. 

If anyone knows of a more organized format that exists to help me understand what i need to know, prior to being able to make decisions about what to source, and from where... i'd love to see it. 

But at this moment, it honestly feels like hydro would be easier to understand (and i'm sure it's significantly faster to get started... i just don't like the idea of having no way to determine the ecological and potential personal health impacts of the materials required... if i went hydro, i'd want it to be as "clean and green" as possible, which i'm guessing is another 'beast' in its own right...)


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## Mohican (Jul 14, 2014)

Hydro is much more time intensive and you can't leave your plants alone or one of the million little things you need to monitor will go wrong and you will kill the plants. Soil is so much more forgiving.


----------



## x713 (Jul 14, 2014)

it bother me when people say google it,its like well this is a forum after all to ask questions lol

since ive been feeding aloe vera and silica i noticed a huge difference in growth its nuts

i always tend to screw things up and over think it when i try to fingure out why stuff happens,i been able to keep my ocd under control and just copy everyone and get same results.some things are bettter unlearned


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 14, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Hydro is much more time intensive and you can't leave your plants alone or one of the million little things you need to monitor will go wrong and you will kill the plants. Soil is so much more forgiving.


The thing about ROLS seems to be that if you don't get it set up correctly at the beginning, you're stuck with whatever mistake you made, until whatever you use to amend, can *eventually join with the existing web. 

Whereas w/ hydro, as long as you pay attention, you should be able to make micro-adjustments to keep things where they should be. So, more work during the grow, but less understanding of soil food web and sourcing various materials, and less time, to get it up and running. Trade-offs and such. I'm pretty meticulous about most things, so i don't see myself making any significant measurement mistakes (measure twice, cut once!). 

Certainly not trying to start a ROLS vs Hydro discussion... i already know which i would prefer (ROLS), but i can see some potential situational advantages for me, if i were to go hydro, due to my current situation (e.g. mixing soil is strenuous and visible...). However, i also see, and prefer, the idea of doing most of the work up front, and just letting it do what it does. Which is why i'm even posting in this thread in the first place. lol. I want to figure out exactly what i need to do, so i can get that initial setup done, and move on to the next thing, while my yet-unmade first ROLS batch "cooks." 

I would like to start at least 3 months ago, if at all possible.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 14, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> The thing about ROLS seems to be that if you don't get it set up correctly at the beginning, you're stuck with whatever mistake you made, until whatever you use to amend, can *eventually join with the existing web.
> 
> Whereas w/ hydro, as long as you pay attention, you should be able to make micro-adjustments to keep things where they should be. So, more work during the grow, but less understanding of soil food web and sourcing various materials, and less time, to get it up and running. Trade-offs and such. I'm pretty meticulous about most things, so i don't see myself making any significant measurement mistakes (measure twice, cut once!).
> 
> ...



First you make your soil mix. Then grow your plants. Then chop. Pull the stalk. Now ROLS begins ( recycling soil). Recook the soil while its still in the pot for 30 days, topdressing with compost and castings. Watering the pot with teas. This breaks down the roots and builds the microbial populations. Sort of an ecosystem beneath the surface. Then you plant your next small plant. top dress with compost and casting and grow. after a week or 2 one the plant has acclamated itself. Its ready for nutes. So top dress nutes and then more casting and compost. thats it. With Rols microbes are everything. Homemade vermicompost is the cornerstone of living organics...

I use compost teas once every few weeks. Seed sprout teas (enzymes and minerals) once a week. Spray with kelp and aloe twice a week.

You can use what ever soil recipe you like. Rols is about longevity and sustainability. Re-using the same soil for years. The bacteria, fungi, and enzymes make it possible and more beneficial and more efficient. Rols is true organics. So no bottled nutes because they all have chems no matter what they claim. Hydro in not organic. with organics. you feed the soil. microbes do all the work. The plant eats what it wants and when it wants. Be able to grow to its full potential. with hydro yyou are force feeding the plant. so the plant adapts and eats when its supplied. In turn diminishing its potential of its genetics.

All this is clearly explained at the beginning of the thread..


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 15, 2014)

hyroot said:


> First you make your soil mix. Then grow your plants. Then chop. Pull the stalk. Now ROLS begins ( recycling soil). Recook the soil while its still in the pot for 30 days, topdressing with compost and castings. Watering the pot with teas. This breaks down the roots and builds the microbial populations. Sort of an ecosystem beneath the surface. Then you plant your next small plant. top dress with compost and casting and grow. after a week or 2 one the plant has acclamated itself. Its ready for nutes. So top dress nutes and then more casting and compost. thats it. With Rols microbes are everything. Homemade vermicompost is the cornerstone of living organics...
> 
> I use compost teas once every few weeks. Seed sprout teas (enzymes and minerals) once a week. Spray with kelp and aloe twice a week.
> 
> ...


Ah, good, that helped me refine my line of questioning. I want to understand how to start from the right place, so that, from the beginning, i'm building a soil that i can reuse for many years, preferably "no till." I saw someone around here leaving their root balls in the soil. How many people think that's a viable strat? 

So i suppose the recycling part is an advanced concept, and isn't something i need to worry about until after i've built and used a soil. 

i don't want to spend a fortune on soil, or take months to get the soil ready to go, or build anything into the soil that will cause problems for either me or the plants or the earth. 

I want the cleanest, safest, most natural and organic, but still sufficient quality to be worth the extra effort... and not take forever getting it to a useful starting point. I don't care if the first crop doesn't win a cup. Or even the second for that matter. 

I know virtually nothing about compost or teas or worms (aside from the fact that they're apparently prioritized). 

I do understand the concept of having a micro-ecosystem, and while i do not understand the details of the microbes, that "microbes do all the work" concept does make sense to me. 


So i suppose my biggest question is this: is there a way i can "throw something together and go," and evolve that into a sustainable recyclable soil for myself, over time? (and i realize "throw together and go" will probably require some "cook" time anyway). 

Some of my already established preferences are: 

coco not peat, because i don't like the idea of harvesting those peat bogs (although i feel like a hypocrite because i use the opposite argument against vegetarians: "the animal was already killed; it would be a shame to waste it!" likewise, the peat bog is going to be harvested regardless, so if peat is better... but i still end up feeling better about coco, because it's "sustainable," even if we haven't quite established the potential long term impacts of all the salt runoff...) 

Don't want to use guano because habitat destructive harvesting... 

don't like the idea of anything unnatural really... which is the biggest reason why i want to avoid hydro. 

Then again, i often make the "everything that exists is nature" argument. Superconductors are a natural byproduct of the human's natural quest for knowledge and technology (but i would say that type of "natural" has quite a different context). 

So yeah. Clean/green/safe is what i'm after, whether you call that "organic" or "all natural" or whatever. I don't want anything in me that shouldn't be in me, same goes for my plants, or anything else in my environment. 

In accordance w/ that statement, i need to build a worm bin and start composting. 

Meanwhile... i need soil now, and do not want to wait however many months it takes to make my own worm bin and compost, and i will need to source acceptable products in that regard, and i have no idea how to determine what is or isn't an acceptable product. You guys seem like you'd know that kind of stuff, or at least, how to guide me to where i can learn it.


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## hyroot (Jul 15, 2014)

^^^^ I do cootz mix sort of. Peat moss, coco(aeration) , compost, castings, crab meal, rock dust, kelp meal, neem meal.

compost is the broken down organic material. Straw, leaves, veggies, coco, peat some have manure. vermicompost is a mix of compost and castings. That's where the microbes come from.. In my worm bin I made a bedding with layers of coco, peat, dried canna leaves. Bury pockets of veggies. After a week I add worms. A week later then every few days after I bury veggie scraps , nutrients, pulverized egg shells, etc... Not all atthe same time either. Egg shells once a month. Nutes once a month. Veggie scraps, coffee grinds every few days. With all that my vermicompost has far more nutrient value than store bought. I use a sifting screen (1/4 inch) to separate worms from compost. With veggie scraps, I keep them.in the freezer til I use them. Thaw them out, puree. Then bury the slurry in the bin.


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 15, 2014)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^ I do cootz mix sort of. Peat moss, coco(aeration) , compost, castings, crab meal, rock dust, kelp meal, neem meal.
> 
> compost is the broken down organic material. Straw, leaves, veggies, coco, peat some have manure. vermicompost is a mix of compost and castings. That's where the microbes come from.. In my worm bin I made a bedding with layers of coco, peat, dried canna leaves. Bury pockets of veggies. After a week I add worms. A week later then every few days after I bury veggie scraps , nutrients, pulverized egg shells, etc... Not all atthe same time either. Egg shells once a month. Nutes once a month. Veggie scraps, coffee grinds every few days. With all that my vermicompost has far more nutrient value than store bought. I use a sifting screen (1/4 inch) to separate worms from compost. With veggie scraps, I keep them.in the freezer til I use them. Thaw them out, puree. Then bury the slurry in the bin.


Cootz mix? Is that "Coot's" or "cootz" ? 

I've seen that mentioned before, but idk who or what that is. 

I've seen people start worm bins with newspaper, and i thought "that doesn't seem very 'natural'..." 

I've seen talk of "green manure," aka "cover crops" (i think? ...meaning "beneficial to what grows beside them," and not as-in stealth; i obviously wouldn't need stealth inside a grow space...), seems like a good idea. 

When you say you bury "nutrients," "nutes once a month" (between veggie scraps and egg shells), what is that? 

I assume you mean used/depleted coffee grinds; i'm sure i can produce plenty of those in-house. lol. 


If i wanted to start with a commercially available base/vermicomp (because vermicompost takes a long time to start), what are some acceptable options? How can i search this for myself? How can i know whether any of them are "good" or "bad" for a purchasable product? (obviously, making my own would be "best," but that will have to come later). What are the right and most/least important factors for determining whether a product is of acceptable quality? (from what i've seen in just this thread, i'm lacking about 2 decades of farming experience...) 

... 

I got distracted and did other stuff during that ellipsis right there. Lost my train of thought, so i'll just post what i had.


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## x713 (Jul 15, 2014)

a rule of thumb i always follow if you haven rols then your lagging behind.i always went with the less is more why complicate something thats been happening on the earth way before we even lived on it

i remember when i firs got into this i hated how dirty it was ect,but now i feel dirty duping hydro butes into my plants

.i freaked out the day one of m yolder friend told me he grows in just using ewc.ricehullls and some perlite.this was when i was into hydro and had to bull all the bottles of kushie kush and skunkie skunk


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## Mohican (Jul 15, 2014)

My compost grow was the best plant ever and it was a finicky sativa!


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## Tranquileyes (Jul 15, 2014)

Hey all, I've been meaning to post here for about 4 months now, not sure how its slipped my mind for so long...... 

I made the switch from synthetics to a fully organic amended soil mix about 6 months ago, supplementing with teas and foliar feedings. I had no intentions of recycling soil until I stumbled upon this thread, but still like all things online I was skeptical. 

The time came for me to harvest my first organic lady. Thinking back on what I had read in this thread, I decided to experiment for shits and gigs. I cut her out of the soil only removing the stem, leaving all roots behind, and watered it down with a tea. A few days later I cut a hole just big enough for a vegged clone (same as previous strain), fastened her in there, and transferred to flower. 

*This girl amazingly outgrew its predecessor in every way!* (fyi both were identical clones, the first was not a mother from seed) 

The misinformation people spew on these forums should be punishable by death! .._Perhaps I've been watching Game of thrones a little too much lately_... But seriously, fuck those spreading bullshit.. _except those spreading actual bull shit, because that's encouraged_


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## x713 (Jul 15, 2014)

crazy how good compost or ewc does everything for you.i get told all the time get with times,i say go back in time! earth been doing this process for a while


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## Pattahabi (Jul 16, 2014)

Interesting article I came across on Epsom Salts.Worth reading the full article imo.



> Excessive levels of potassium contribute to a mineral imbalance that causes magnesium deficiency in a variety of species, even when soil levels of Mg are adequate. High levels of soil potassium apparently interfere with root uptake of magnesium. Addition of nitrogen and/or reduction of available potassium are both recommended to overcome this indirect magnesium deficiency; trees high in nitrogen were found to be less susceptible to magnesium deficiency than those with reduced nitrogen levels.





> The science behind the use of Epsom salts is only applicable to intensive crop production in situations where magnesium is known to be deficient in the soil or in the plants. It is irresponsible to advise gardeners and other plant enthusiasts to apply Epsom salts, or any chemical, without regard to soil conditions, plant needs, and environmental health.


P-


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## Pattahabi (Jul 16, 2014)

I just came across this, but sounded like something I'd like to look into a little more.

In order to study the action of SA, under laboratory conditions, the seeds were soaked in 0.05 mM SA solution for 3 h and then were germinated for 5 d on moist filter paper in cuvetters (24-h light/dark photoperiod with the light phase duration of 16 h; light intensity, 15 klx; temperature; 22-240C). Estimation of the influence of presowing seed treatment with 0.05 mM SA on hormonal status of leaves and milky grains and various characteristics in wheat were carried out in microplots (2 m2) in the field of Chishminsky Crop Production, Bashkortostan, Russia.
Presowing seed treatment with SA leads to an activation of germination and seedling growth (Shakirova et al., 2003), while the enhancement of the division of root apical cells is an important contribution to the growth stimulating effect of SA (Table 1). This effect was also revealed in field experiments when elements of yield structure were analysed. As evident from table 2, plants pretreated with SA were characterized with increased size of ears, mass of 1000 seeds and grain yield, *indicating prolonged effect of presowing treatment of seeds, which produced stimulative effect on the productivity of wheat, at harvest.*

Taken from Salicylic Acid: A Plant Hormone - Hayat & Ahmad

P-


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## Pattahabi (Jul 16, 2014)

On a livelier note...

*Jethro Tull* (1674 – 21 February 1740 or 1741 New Style) was an English agricultural pioneer from Berkshire who helped bring about the British Agricultural Revolution. He perfected a horse-drawn seed drill in 1701 that economically sowed the seeds in neat rows, and later a horse-drawn hoe. Tull's methods were adopted by many large landowners, and they helped form the basis of modern agriculture.

The progressive rock band Jethro Tull was named after him.






P-


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## x713 (Jul 18, 2014)

ive been using a couple products from dragonfly earth medicine.they pretty much do all the hard work and shred up all the good stuff into a veg/flower mix pretty awesome.they have a good leaf spray that has kelp,comfrey,alfalfa and all the good stuff. been using it for a couple months and has had a great success nice strong plants


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## Mohican (Jul 19, 2014)

AN Grow A and B has salicylic acid in it. You can smell it - kinda smells like vinegar. Acetic acid is used in the synthesis process of SA. Open a bottle of aspirin and you can smell it.


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## x713 (Jul 19, 2014)

dont let an find out you know their magic secret


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## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I only used lime when I did super soil before I learned it takes years for lime to break down. Coco, compost, teas, egg shells, etc... Are enough for a buffer.


how does the Coco affect your media ph? I keep reading peat peat peat is way to go. I get coco for less than peat. Would a 33% Coco, 33% Rice Hulls and 33% Pure worm gold plus do the trick? Maybe a nutrient pack from Build a Soil. Its seems to have the goodies in it. A local brewery will get me the rice hulls at cost. Do you think this is a recyclable soil?


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## hyroot (Jul 20, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> how does the Coco affect your media ph? I keep reading peat peat peat is way to go. I get coco for less than peat. Would a 33% Coco, 33% Rice Hulls and 33% Pure worm gold plus do the trick? Maybe a nutrient pack from Build a Soil. Its seems to have the goodies in it. A local brewery will get me the rice hulls at cost. Do you think this is a recyclable soil?


I never check ph. No point. Its living organics. Imo if you have coco in your mix, no need for rice hulls or pumice it perlite. The coco provides enough aeration along with cec.


.
I'm really diggin having coco in my mix. My last batch was 50/50 coco / soil in 5 gals. Those dried out too fast. Now I'm rocking 30/70 coco /soil in 10 gals. Any pumice or perlite in there is left over from old recycled soil.


my mix is 30% coco , 40% peat, 30% vermicompost.


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 20, 2014)

i tried looking around, what is this "cootz mix" you mentioned before? I've seen lots of different recipes, but nothing attached to that name.

Let's assume i need to build an organic living soil tomorrow, and don't have time to build my own worm bin, and can't source anything locally.

What is the cheapest acceptable way to start an organic living soil mix that i can continue improving as i go, while using it?

I guess the super simplified version is "peat/coco, worm castings, rock dust," but i have no idea how to compare products, and don't know which products to avoid.

If you guys know of a shortest possible list of least expensive acceptable purchasable ingredients, i'd like to see it.

You could say "get peat," but i'll ask: "which peat?"
You could say "add coco," but i'll ask: "which coco?"
You could say "get EWC," and i'll ask: "which kind, from where?"

My brain is burning out from trying to slash my way through multiple different forums and seeing a plethora of recipes but without understanding how to compare products to determine what to buy.

Example: i don't want anything made by any monsanto affiliate. I don't know how many brands use any of their crap, but i don't want any of their poison anywhere near me.

How many other evil nute/product producers exist? Who to avoid? Who to recommend?

I also don't want to go around and find individual products and then start a thread for each one like: "is this okay? should i use this?" because that will just add more forum congestion. 


lol this feels like desperation... maybe it is.


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## hyroot (Jul 20, 2014)

I use premiere peat moss, cocotek or cocomor coco. store bought castings - agrowynn. Store bought compost - Malibu bu's blend or homemade from the local nursery.

cootz mix is the standard recipe with rols. Mine is adjusted though. I use the same nutes. Kelp meal, neem meal, rock dust, crab meal in varying amounts. I buy the down to earth line or keep it simple organics.

having your own worm bin is the best way to go for castings / compost.


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## legaleyes13 (Jul 20, 2014)

Quick question for you guys/girls that use 200x aloe powder extract... how much am I supposed to use per gallon for watering and for foliar?

Thanks in advance.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 20, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> i tried looking around, what is this "cootz mix" you mentioned before? I've seen lots of different recipes, but nothing attached to that name.
> 
> Let's assume i need to build an organic living soil tomorrow, and don't have time to build my own worm bin, and can't source anything locally.
> 
> ...


build a soil dot com good info. never tried im a wussy.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I use premiere peat moss, cocotek or cocomor coco. store bought castings - agrowynn. Store bought compost - Malibu bu's blend or homemade from the local nursery.
> 
> cootz mix is the standard recipe with rols. Mine is adjusted though. I use the same nutes. Kelp meal, neem meal, rock dust, crab meal in varying amounts. I buy the down to earth line or keep it simple organics.
> 
> having your own worm bin is the best way to go for castings / compost.


Thanks for the information. awesome to have. So why is chitin so important for feeding worms? Is it for fungi food?


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## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I never check ph. No point. Its living organics. Imo if you have coco in your mix, no need for rice hulls or pumice it perlite. The coco provides enough aeration along with cec.
> 
> 
> .
> ...


So im close. I know this is the ROLS thread. I just have uno mas question off topic. I only have a 2 by 2 foot print. Using a 190 xgs. If I 3 gallon pots. Should I just remove root ball and then transplant with a topping of EWC? Maybe a new inoculation of microrizahh?


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 20, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I use premiere peat moss, cocotek or cocomor coco. store bought castings - agrowynn. Store bought compost - Malibu bu's blend or homemade from the local nursery.
> 
> cootz mix is the standard recipe with rols. Mine is adjusted though. I use the same nutes. Kelp meal, neem meal, rock dust, crab meal in varying amounts. I buy the down to earth line or keep it simple organics.
> 
> having your own worm bin is the best way to go for castings / compost.


thanks man.


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## x713 (Jul 22, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Thanks for the information. awesome to have. So why is chitin so important for feeding worms? Is it for fungi food?


its important to have chitin in your worm poop and soil because it really good at suppressing incest and other nasties in your soil this mixed with neem meal in a soil would be pretty awesome.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 22, 2014)

x713 said:


> its important to have chitin in your worm poop and soil because it really good at suppressing *incest* and other nasties in your soil t


LmFao!!!


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## jcdws602 (Jul 22, 2014)

Nasty bugs and their incest! hahaha


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## x713 (Jul 22, 2014)

bound to happen when your getting down and dirty with mother earth haha *insects* i do not approve of inbreeding in the soil web


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2014)

cocomor testing




I was told it doesn't need rinsing . I rinsed it anyway. It appeared that it really needed to be rinsed.


before rinsing


After rinsing 

as you can see its not as processed or as fine as other coco. This may improve cec and longevity of this coco. 

I mixed it with soil. 30 /70 coco / soil and its in this quantum kush 10 gal pot. all my other plants have cocotek




i love this strain. has that oldschool diesel flavor. Kicks your ass but doesn't put you to sleep.


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## AllDayToker (Jul 23, 2014)

And let the testing begin!


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 23, 2014)

Ah........ so that's Indagro's new bagged cocco.................you got a price??


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Ah........ so that's Indagro's new bagged cocco.................you got a price??



They redid the site finally. no spd that I can find though. It's $22.55 for a cubic foot. which imo is very high priced. I pay less than $10 for 2.5 cubic feet of cocotek. I broke down old soil from this last batch and the cocotek coco is still good. If the cocomor lasts longer or has better cec. It may be worth the extra price. Also it just came out. Price may drop eventually.

http://www.inda-gro.com/Ozone/?q=node/23


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## Pattahabi (Jul 23, 2014)

Mix of Black Widow, Cheeseberry, Grape Stomper OG, Aurora Project, Congo, Motobreath OG, Confidential Cheese.



P-


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> They redid the site finally. no spd that I can find though. It's $22.55 for a cubic foot. which imo is very high priced. I pay less than $10 for 2.5 cubic feet of cocotek. I broke down old soil from this last batch and the cocotek coco is still good. If the cocomor lastst longer or has better cec. It may be worth the extra price. Also it just came out. Price may drop evebtually.
> 
> http://www.inda-gro.com/Ozone/?q=node/23


Its not completely organic(95%) due to the cal buffer?? ask Daryl where they source it from, I'm just guessing Indonesia

have fun with it.......so your off the vegan train now, what's your new regiment like?


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## DonPetro (Jul 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> cocomor testing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looks pretty hungry.


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Its not completely organic(95%) due to the cal buffer?? ask Daryl where they source it from, I'm just guessing Indonesia
> 
> have fun with it.......so your off the vegan train now, what's your new regiment like?


it comes from Brazil. Inland away from the ocean.

swapped the vegan mix for crab meal. So crab meal, neem meal, rock dust, kelp meal. And alfalfa meal just for veg pots.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 23, 2014)

This is a 15 gallon pot from the last run. I got my cover crop in a little late, but pots are kept just like this till they are ready for the next plant (if there is any time inbetween). The plants pictured above will go right into these containers, veg for a few weeks and then be flowered.



P-


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Looks pretty hungry.


it was pretty root bound before transplanting. I took that pic last week. Its gotten much greener since. only one watering since transplant of kelp / alfalfa tea. Plus the nutes in the soil


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## DonPetro (Jul 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> it was pretty root bound before transplanting. I took that pic last week. Its gotten much greener since. only one watering since transplant of kelp / alfalfa tea. Plus the nutes in the soil


How long do you typically veg for? How many times do you up-pot and what size?


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## x713 (Jul 23, 2014)

@hyroot how the was the run off from the coco?i do miss growing in coco the growth is awesome but watering sucks


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 23, 2014)

i almost pulled the trigger on some cocomor... still not sure exactly how much i'll need (15 gal geopot is the intention, and 15gal seems to be 2 cuft...), or if i even need the super high-end coco. Not sure it's worth it in my situation.


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> How long do you typically veg for? How many times do you up-pot and what size?


I veg for 2 months. Up pot size once. I just lagged on transplants. Was waiting til I had more space. Other plants took longer than expected to finish.


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2014)

x713 said:


> @hyroot how the was the run off from the coco?i do miss growing in coco the growth is awesome but watering sucks


I didn't measure ph. When I rinsed it, it had the red colored run off like like other coco. I rinsed til its clear. mixed it with soil. Not much run off after watering in 10 gals.


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> i almost pulled the trigger on some cocomor... still not sure exactly how much i'll need (15 gal geopot is the intention, and 15gal seems to be 2 cuft...), or if i even need the super high-end coco. Not sure it's worth it in my situation.


15 gal is about 1.5-2 cu ft. I can't say how good it is. This is my first time using it. They have had great results with it in aquaponics. Much more and faster root growth than they were with hydroton. I don't think mine was fluffed. They just bought machine to fluff it up more like other coco. The company that harvests the coco has been around and doing coco for 50 years. Through inda gro is the first they have been in the U.S. Apparently they didn't know there was a market for it here.


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 23, 2014)

hyroot said:


> 15 gal is about 1.5-2 cu ft. I can't say how good it is. This is my first time using it. They have had great results with it in aquaponics. Much more and faster root growth than they were with hydroton. I don't think mine was fluffed. They just bought machine to fluff it up more like other coco. The company that harvests the coco has been around and doing coco for 50 years. Through inda gro is the first they have been in the U.S. Apparently they didn't know there was a market for it here.


Seems possibly beyond my budget to build a top-tier premium soil at this time (e.g. agrowynn + cocomor + shipping), so i was considering just going with a default BAS mix for now... or maybe something like organic mechanic... i need a good non-peat recipe so i can understand how much of what will be needed, so that i can shop around and compare prices, but i keep getting overwhelmed with all the site hopping. I'm having a hard time finding info about potential local sources for any of this organics stuff. I'm sure i could just stroll down to lowe's and pick up something that isn't what i want, but i'm trying to avoid that. ^^


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## hyroot (Jul 24, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> Seems possibly beyond my budget to build a top-tier premium soil at this time (e.g. agrowynn + cocomor + shipping), so i was considering just going with a default BAS mix for now... or maybe something like organic mechanic... i need a good non-peat recipe so i can understand how much of what will be needed, so that i can shop around and compare prices, but i keep getting overwhelmed with all the site hopping. I'm having a hard time finding info about potential local sources for any of this organics stuff. I'm sure i could just stroll down to lowe's and pick up something that isn't what i want, but i'm trying to avoid that. ^^



i get peat moss at Lowes. Agrowynn has a list of retailers. When I buy that I get it from HydroScape, a landscaping company with locations all over Cali. They carry the malibu compost too. its $22.50 for a bag of castings and $12 for the compost and they have rockdust also. $10 for 10 lbs. of agrowynn rock dust. You can get any other brand coco from any hydro shop or home depot. Inda gro carries rock dust too. the aquaponics elements. Supposedly you only need enough to sprinkle a thin layer.. or so I have been told. I have not used it. So I can't really speak on it.


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Jul 24, 2014)

For you home growers.......what do you mix your soil up in, and where do you store it ?

I guess that's step one for me.....

I'm thinking totes ? Maybe have two ? One that is finished organic soil that I can grab from to pot plants, and another tote where the soil is cooking ?


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## DonTesla (Jul 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't buy this. I hear people saying this all of the time, but I feel it's kind of misleading. Why does every recipe call for liming ingredients if ph doesn't matter? Peat is extremely acidic, and without dolo lime, oyster shell flour, etc your ph would be way out of range. I had this happen myself with one of the first batches I made. Miscalculated liming agents and had some pretty severe lockout because of it. I think a good source of humus can *help* buffer ph, but measures do need to be taken beyond that.


for sure mon. some newcomers may want to avoid those headaches…imo one otta gotta divide organics into sub sections..pH, peat- based organics and non pH / non-peat based ( or coir) organics.. cause pH is huge in one and almost a non factor in the other (if you know what you're doing, have a well ammendended soil that can bring u thru both veg and flower, and of course cook everything really well, first, like Petro). We just did a 10 week, gypsum free coir grow, in one gallons, with extremely potent results and glossy fans to the end with pure Ro water 94/95 days. not that we're not gonna add it shortly.. but to me that makes peat a slightly more advanced (difficult) way of growing, and coir the easier, simpler way to go, at least at first..


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## Pattahabi (Jul 24, 2014)

I think Coot said it best:

_If a person wanted to pretend that they're growing in 'soil' but are still stuck on bottled nutes then coir is the perfect product to use. If you're striving to create a soil that is alive and uses humus then it's pretty much an open & shut argument - CSPM

HTH

CC_


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## DonPetro (Jul 24, 2014)

We have a very high humus content in our soil-mix with roughly 20% being coir and we dont use peat at all or anything in a bottle so what does that statement have to do with anything?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 24, 2014)

Not all humus is the same. Some of this is above my paygrade, but look at the stability of humus. I'll be doing more reading on this when I have time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus

The founders of recycled organic living soil have said peat. The only argument I have heard for coco is it is more sustainable then peat. Then I have to say stop being lazy and use leaf mold. Peat is far more microbial active then coco and has a higher CEC.

I tire of the peat/coco debate. I have seen virtually no documentation from the coco side. If people are going to believe hollow claims, let them.

P-


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## DonTesla (Jul 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Look, Im not trying to argue with you. IMO you, and everyone else interested in organics should be trying to turn people on to it, not turn them off with a condescending attitude. Not everyone has the time nor the means to be making everything. I work 50+ hours a week, I have a family of 5, and I enjoy traveling. If its easier for me to stop at the hydro shop for a bottle of pro-tekt than it is to be pissing around with horsetail trying to make it myself then I (nor anyone else) shouldn't be ridiculed for it. The tone of the LOS site turns people away. Offer alternatives to products, not ultimatums.
> 
> Myself and others were shamed for using coco coir in our mix at LOS. Like its blasphemy or something. Why is that? I really like using a 50/50 peat/coco coir mix. It's working great for me. Why is that so bad in your view? You guys act like peat is the only organic answer, and yet apparently don't consider the delicate ecosystems that are ruined when these peat bogs are stripped.
> 
> Personally I want to see more people make the switch to organics. If people choose to source everything from their back yard then more power to them. If people choose to pick up a couple items from the hydro store then that should be ok too.


 50 hours a week assassinating assassins probably!!! can't wait to see your Coir/Peat SxS results brotha! links? BigUP!!


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## DonPetro (Jul 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Not all humus is the same. Some of this is above my paygrade, but look at the stability of humus. I'll be doing more reading on this when I have time.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus
> 
> ...


Yea man i hear leaf mold is where its at. I may be attempting a make soon.


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## DonTesla (Jul 24, 2014)

headtreep said:


> DonPetro. Older pic but impressive to those non believers. View attachment 3150328


BEEEEautiful


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## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Not all humus is the same. Some of this is above my paygrade, but look at the stability of humus. I'll be doing more reading on this when I have time.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus
> 
> ...


Now I get it! K.I.S.S closet, use peat. So its more active and higher CEC, that's enough for me. Do you have an opinion about the CC pack from build a soil?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 24, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Now I get it! K.I.S.S closet, use peat. So its more active and higher CEC, that's enough for me. Do you have an opinion about the CC pack from build a soil?


OutofLED, I'm assuming the CC pack from BAS is pretty much the same as I use in my mix. I always source locally first, then if I can't find something I'll order it online. They will definitely steer you in the right direction as far as what to use. 

This is what I recommend for beginners to get a baseline. There are a slew of organic gardeners that use nearly this exact mix with outstanding results.



> This is the Coot soil recipe I use.
> 
> 33% Sphagnum Peat Moss
> 33% Aeration
> ...


I see a pattern of new organic growers trying to experiment with mixes before they ever get a baseline (I was one of those growers). I spent enough time chasing my tail trying to apply a hydrostore mentality to organics. It just doesn't work. Experimenting with my first hodge podge Coot's mix yielded results far beyond what I had ever achieved in super soil. Therefore, I recommend this mix knowing myself and many others have used it with success.

Don't ask what can you add to your soil, but what can you simplify.

P-


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> OutofLED, I'm assuming the CC pack from BAS is pretty much the same as I use in my mix. I always source locally first, then if I can't find something I'll order it online. They will definitely steer you in the right direction as far as what to use.
> 
> This is what I recommend for beginners to get a baseline. There are a slew of organic gardeners that use nearly this exact mix with outstanding results.
> 
> ...


My question for you, is this: 

As a new grower who has not yet established a baseline, agrees with the KISS principle (in almost every area of life), wants to use the most eco-friendly organic KISS approach, but DOES NOT WANT TO USE PEAT (personal preference, regardless of alleged superior performance)... 

What is the simplest and most performant baseline? Without peat, what's the next best simplest way to establish an acceptable non-peat alternative? I'm having trouble finding this particular answer/information anywhere. Hyroot has been the closest to answering that so far. "coco, castings/vermicompost, alfalfa, kelp, neem, rock dust" is about all i've grasped so far. 

I would like to prioritize these considerations: organic (and eco-friendly), KISS, non-peat. The next sublevel of priorities would be "cheap and fast." I don't want to spend 2 months building a worm bin and waiting for it to produce enough yield, prior to beginning my soil. I don't have the budget to just ship the top tier products across the country. I realize i will have to "evolve" whatever baseline soil i start with... but i need an acceptable starting point, so that i can begin. 

I simply don't know of a resource that exists in accordance with the approach i want to take, both from personal preference of peat-avoidance, and necessity of limited budget. 

However, on that note: with regard to budget, "maybe i should just use the cheapest thing that will perform adequately." 

These are my concerns, and i would like to resolve them to a solution, so i can just get started, so i can actually start learning physically, instead of just theorizing. Eventually, i will figure out the intricate parts on my own, from experience... but i'm having trouble reaching a starting point. I considered starting my own thread for this, but i'm almost certain it will result in a "peat vs coco" argument, instead of actually helping me figure out what to do. 

I want to avoid peat and synthetics, but i still want a "good" soil, and i don't want to go broke building it, or take months before it's ready to begin.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 24, 2014)

@reasonevangelist I do not have an answer for quick, reliable replacement for peat. It has been in the base mix since Cornell university created it in the 1960's. You can go with coco, I can't help you in that arena.

P-


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## Tazbud (Jul 25, 2014)

35 coco/ 10 peat / 15 Soil / 30 growstone (http://www.growstone.com/) blue gravel dust and chips (from the driveway), crab and oyster (from a meal), some dried brown kelp from the beach, comfey, nettles, alfalfa and assorted flowers from the garden dried (a couple of years ago). I re-ammended just with a bit of each spread each week or two, or in a couple of teas and added EWC last time, scratched into the surface.. definitely bumped up the growth (I guess EWC might now comprise 10% of the mix).

Coco works fine, used it in hydro last year and 3rd run in organic mix. Noticed more mg deficiency (rthan other soil grows) so i'm going to try to fix that, in the mix, but same/same- healthy lush growth right through. Much cheaper than peat around here.


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 25, 2014)

Tazbud said:


> 40 coco/20 peat/30 growstone (http://www.growstone.com/) blue gravel dust and chips (from the driveway), crab and oyster (from a meal) comfey, nettles and assorted flowers from the garden dried (a couple of years ago).
> 
> Coco works fine, used it in hydro last year and 3rd run in organic mix. Noticed more mg deficiency (rthan other soil grows) so i'm going to try to fix that, in the mix, but same/same- healthy lush growth right through. Much cheaper than peat around here.


I was thinking of just straight substituting the Coot recipe peat with coco at 1:1, rice hulls for aeration, found some locally produced castings, and grabbing the BAS "CC kit." 

Say... 
1cuft of coco (50% of my total volume of 15gal)
rice hulls
local EWC (actually "RWC")
CC kit x2 (since i need total 2cuft for a 15gal pot) 

Would that be... roughly acceptable? Or do i need to add something else when substituting coco for peat? 

And when substituting coco, do i just use the assumed 1:1 cocoeat ratio? Or do i need "more coco to replace peat," or "less coco to replace peat?" 

Or i might just skip the coco and just go with peat for now. It's not like 1cuft is going to make or break the ecosystem, and it's not like my personal peat avoidance will stop the bog harvesting...  

(i'm also heavily considering starting a massive red worm bin, since it's apparently scarce in my region, which surprises me)
(i don't have a large enough amount of tree leaves to start my own leafmold... one large tree in the yard, and it won't start dropping leaves for at least another month or two, which puts me a minimum of a year away from having any self-made leafmold lol... and i don't even know if it's "that kind of tree," tbh... it's big and old, trunk is probably 1m wide at the base, massive root network...). 
(lowe's peat is cheap enough... ~$10 for 3cuft of "organic") 

Oh! i just remembered: i don't see volume listed on any of the worm castings, only weight. 

How do i know by weight, how much volume i'm getting? If the castings only list weight, how do i figure out how many pounds is 5 gallons?


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## DonPetro (Jul 25, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> I was thinking of just straight substituting the Coot recipe peat with coco at 1:1, rice hulls for aeration, found some locally produced castings, and grabbing the BAS "CC kit."
> 
> Say...
> 1cuft of coco (50% of my total volume of 15gal)
> ...


It would depend on the moisture content. You can use a one gallon pail like an old ice cream pail or something to measure it out. If you do go coco then yes, same ratio as peat.


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## Tazbud (Jul 25, 2014)

.. first run I actually used just one 5L bag of Peat in 40L tote (so it was much less than listed above).

I intend to keep adding castings in larger proportions from now. My main reasons for adding more peat were the deficiency mentioned (not a disaster, just a hassle that I had to deal with throughout the grow.. less so last run with a bit more peat and castings)...

that and i'd rather hedge my bets that someone using peat might be having a better grow than me 

Rice Hulls I may try, growstone is definitely much better than perlite.


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Jul 25, 2014)

just like organic soil, this thread is alive !


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 25, 2014)

Tazbud said:


> Peat is around $8 a litre here.. so the first run I actually used just one 5L bag in 40L tote (so it was much less than listed above).
> 
> I intend to keep adding castings in larger proportions from now. My main reasons for adding more peat were the deficiency mentioned (not a disaster, just a hassle that I had to deal with throughout the grow.. less so last run with a bit more peat and castings)...
> 
> ...


In my location, i can't seem to find anything verifiably "natural organic" and/or "eco-friendly," or even with honest package labeling.

Ideally, i'd like to get 100% OMRI approved stuff, but it just doesn't seem feasible without spending a fortune on shipping various things from various places.

Sure, i could hit lowe's or home depot, or any of the few garden shops around, and pick up something that works... but i can't be sure what's really in it, and none of the stuff that i can figure is "actually what it says it is" on the internet, is even available here. With a thriving agricultural emphasis in this region, i find the lack of commercially available products baffling. Seems like "eco-friendly synthetics" are more popular around here, which is probably just a business and marketing strategy, and not the actual preference of the people. Then again, it's possible that anyone who wants such things is likely making their own, and not advertising it... which would mean the "commercial organics" niche might not be worth a venture to a risk-assessing businessman. I'm speculating of course.

At this point, i'm pretty much satisfied with what i'm seeing on buildasoil, and will most likely give them my money, for the simple fact that they have good info and everything i want to use (minus coco), for reasonable prices, which means less work for me, less driving around town, less reading up on too many different products that might not really be what they claim they are... the only adjustment i really need to make to the BAS/CC mix, is swap out peat for coco... which i might not even bother doing at this point.

Once the base is constructed, i intend to start my own worms, but i'll cross that bridge when i get there. I gotta build lights and filtration first. But my plans are fairly well decided at this point, minus a few details. THANKS TO YOU GUYS! (and a few from other forums)


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## Tazbud (Jul 25, 2014)

I think i'm the low-stress 'organic' type lol.. really, my focus is on finding alternatives, most of which is within walking distance of home, from the garden or local forest.
At it's simplest, digging up some -good looking- local provenance soil - mix with aeration- start growing  some interesting thoughts on using alternate aeration here though, I might find something better. Then again, this is the RoOLS thread and already have a heap of soil mixed with growstones - so 'cycling' that is the most eco- friendly.. I only 'use' one but the spare tubs grow Very nice vegies..


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 25, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> In my location, i can't seem to find anything verifiably "natural organic" and/or "eco-friendly," or even with honest package labeling.
> 
> Ideally, i'd like to get 100% OMRI approved stuff, but it just doesn't seem feasible without spending a fortune on shipping various things from various places.
> 
> ...



In the short term you can try a product called "RePeet" which is essentially composted dairy manure. I don't know where you live, so not sure on the availability of it around you.

http://www.organix.us/product/repeat/

In the long term leaf mold is where it's at. A simple rake and mulch (plus adding a N source to speed up decomposition) is all that needs to be done. It's a fungal dominant cold composting process that will yield a great soil ammendment in around 12 months. I have some leaves from last fall that I'm going to be using as a substitute for peat/coco this fall. I will be saving all of my leaves from this falls clean up and will be completely peat/coco free next year. I'm going to be starting a thread on leaf mold (with Rrog) at some point either here or in the Michigan section.


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## DonPetro (Jul 25, 2014)

Yea leaf mold seems to be right in line with sustainable organics. Gonna start some this fall for sure. I wonder how mixing in some semi-composted manure would affect the process?


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## DonTesla (Jul 25, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Yo @DonTesla, you're promoting coco. What has more ability to buffer pH Coco or Peat?


no disrepsect, but excuse me while i YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN


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## Pattahabi (Jul 25, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> no disrepsect, but excuse me while i YAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNN


I like it when you yawn, then I don't have to listen to you misinforming people with stupid crap like their worms are going to live for 10 years never sleeping and double their mass every month. So be my guest, keep poking. And Mr. Canadian, more rasta accent, it makes you sound like you know what you're talking about MON! lmao.

For the people that aren't trying to start $h1t, I'll be curious to see the leaf mold results and how people go about producing it. I'm going to have access to more leaves this year and I plan on working more into my mixes. I'll try and dig up more info.

P-


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## DonTesla (Jul 25, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> A cement mixer would be awesome!
> 
> I'm trying to cut back on power usage and labor sooo maybe 4-5 teas a run, more simple top dressing, and an occasional foliar. Researching blumats ATM.
> 
> The worm casting harvesting is a pain right now. Soon I'll try a melon piece in middle of tote to hopefully get em out of the way.


Do you guys use layers in your worm farms? our bottom layers is 99% EWC at all times…keep all three levels moist, with 1/4 inch hardware mesh in between.. leave a little banana stem / peel in middle of very bottom layer, all worms go to middle..


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## x713 (Jul 25, 2014)

i know i talked about it in one of my last post but for you people who want to go organic and cant quite leave the mixing should looking into dragonflyearth medcine products.they have a humic acid,floiar spray veg and flowers nutes that are made from benis and stuff like comfrey,kelp alfalfa.you could get away with running promix and that then recycle soil with earthworm castings and/orcompost and you get you recycle soil going!.there nothing in these products that will kill the web it actually contributes.With the mulching of comfrey i noticed i dont have to feed as often with these products which is good for me because these products arent cheap!


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## DonTesla (Jul 25, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I like it when you yawn, then I don't have to listen to you misinforming people with stupid crap like their worms are going to live for 10 years never sleeping and double their mass every month. So be my guest, keep poking. And Mr. Canadian, more rasta accent, it makes you sound like you know what you're talking about MON! lmao.
> 
> For the people that aren't trying to start $h1t, I'll be curious to see the leaf mold results and how people go about producing it. I'm going to have access to more leaves this year and I plan on working more into my mixes. I'll try and dig up more info.
> 
> P-


I PITY DA FOO! I'm posting good info on all fronts, P-boi.. whay u hatin'. 75% of my messages are liked so you can suck _____ and as for worms.. they CAN live up to 10 years.. average life span is only in the 2-3 year range in wild because of all their natural predators.... they do double bio mass too.. may take 3 months (they are sensitive to vibrations and light) my mentor was mistaken on the time frame, throw him in a jail cell !
I've been making worm farms for ppl and kept my worm mass the same or higher. ask these ppl if their worms ever sleep they have 30 acres and run a big wiggler biz.. they say they NEVER SLEEP too. hmm weird. maybe Tesla not crazy.. maybe read all the worm sites not just one that fits ur argument.. then pick ur fights with guys from the Peat side, .. pH nah concern us ..

http://www.localharvest.org/compost-worms-red-wigglers-C19926

"Red Wigglers aka Eisenia Fetida aka "compost worms" are built to compost. They never sleep, and in ideal conditions they double their population every 90 days, and eat their own body weight every 3-4 days!"
-Professional Worm Breeder/Farmer, Acreage/Business owner


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## x713 (Jul 25, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Do you guys use layers in your worm farms? our bottom layers is 99% EWC at all times…keep all three levels moist, with 1/4 inch hardware mesh in between.. leave a little banana stem / peel in middle of very bottom layer, all worms go to middle..


i use a sterlite bin and noticed having better success when i layer bedding on food ect


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## DonTesla (Jul 25, 2014)

Leaf molds boss, on it.


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## x713 (Jul 25, 2014)

got enough of that!spent last fall stealing my neighbors bags of leaves and clippings.have enough for a couple of years


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## x713 (Jul 25, 2014)

on an other note i would post links on products i use but i come from a communist cannabis fourm where ive been scared to death of linking anything that doesnt have to do with the mighty circle of cannacon-artist if that makes any sense


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## DonTesla (Jul 25, 2014)

x713 said:


> i use a sterlite bin and noticed having better success when i layer bedding on food ect


Im talking about actual separated levels in the farm.. a downfall to bins unless they had some wire racks inside, but sterile is nice, no doubt


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## reasonevangelist (Jul 25, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> In the short term you can try a product called "RePeet" which is essentially composted dairy manure. I don't know where you live, so not sure on the availability of it around you.
> 
> http://www.organix.us/product/repeat/
> 
> In the long term leaf mold is where it's at. A simple rake and mulch (plus adding a N source to speed up decomposition) is all that needs to be done. It's a fungal dominant cold composting process that will yield a great soil ammendment in around 12 months. I have some leaves from last fall that I'm going to be using as a substitute for peat/coco this fall. I will be saving all of my leaves from this falls clean up and will be completely peat/coco free next year. I'm going to be starting a thread on leaf mold (with Rrog) at some point either here or in the Michigan section.


Awesome, thanks. In the peat vs coco considerations, i totally didn't think about the engines burning fuel to power the ships that import the stuff. Although i have to say that's not quite as upsetting as wrecking the bogs. 

that repeet stuff looks interesting. But it doesn't seem very available (know of any "large" stores that ship it?). The map dots on their site are rather far from me.  (and most of them only list "powerplant" as the product they carry) ... (and "dairy compost?" Hmm... is dairy sustainable? IIRC, cattle produce quite a bit of methane! lol) 

Meanwhile, i gotta figure out what kind of massive tree that is in my yard... i said the trunk was "about a meter wide;" it's actually thicker than that. It's rather large. I read somewhere that oak isn't good for leaf mold...


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## Pattahabi (Jul 25, 2014)

Don, poke me and I poke back. People want to throw up information and experience and learn together, I'm all for it. I certainly here to learn and help add to the info if I can. I don't deal well with unsubstantiated claims. I think the info you posted from local harvest would have been appropriate in your first post.



DonTesla said:


> Well it depends not so much on size, but how many pounds of happy worms u got, *cause they will eat their body weight inna day if happy.* *They live for 10 years straight* with no sleep so if they are unstressed (no onions, acidic mix, not too dry, hot cold etc) they will also *up to double their bio mass every month* via mating and growing...





DonTesla said:


> I PITY DA FOO! I'm posting good info on all fronts, P-boi.. whay u hatin'. 75% of my messages are liked so you can suck _____ and as for worms.. t*hey CAN live up to 10 years*.. average life span is only in the 2-3 year range in wild because of all their natural predators.... t*hey do double bio mass too.. may take 3 months* (they are sensitive to vibrations and light) my mentor was mistaken on the time frame, throw him in a jail cell !
> I've been making worm farms for ppl and kept my worm mass the same or higher. ask these ppl if their worms ever sleep they have 30 acres and run a big wiggler biz.. they say they NEVER SLEEP too. hmm weird. maybe Tesla not crazy.. maybe read all the worm sites not just one that fits ur argument.. then pick ur fights with guys from the Peat side, jam to Marylin Manson in your cab and shut up .. pH nah concern us .. (thats for dissin Rasta)
> 
> http://www.localharvest.org/compost-worms-red-wigglers-C19926
> ...


The source I quoted was was Vermiculture Technologies. If you have conflicting information, please post it up. I'd love to look at it. I consider Clive Edwards to be a worm expert, I could be wrong.



Pattahabi said:


> Vermiculture Technologies - Edwards
> 
> The life cycle and population biology of E. fetida and E. andrei in different organic wastes have been investigated by several authors (Watanabe and Tsukamoto 1976; Hartenstein et al. 1979; Edwards 1988; Reinecke and Viljoen 1990; Domínguez et al. 1997; Domínguez and Edwards 1997; Domínguez et al. 2000; Monroy et al. 2006). The optimum temperature for growth of both species is 25°C(68°F), and although they can tolerate a wide range of moisture conditions, the optimum moisture content for these species is 85%. In optimum conditions the length of their life cycles (from newly-laid cocoon through clitellate adult earthworm) ranges from 45 to 51 days. The time for hatchlings to reach sexual maturity varies from 21 to 30 days. Copulation in these species, which takes place beneath the soil or waste surface, has been men- tioned by various authors since 1845 and has been observed more often than in any other megadrile species. Cocoon laying starts 48 hours after copulation, and the rate of cocoon production is 0.35–0.5 day–1. The hatching viability is 72%–82%, and the incubation period ranges from 18 to 26 days. The number of young earthworms hatching from viable cocoons varies from 2.5 to 3.8 depending on the temperature. In controlled conditions, the average life span is 594 days at 18°C(64.4°F) and 589 days at 28°C(82.4°F) with a *maximum life expectancy between 4.5 and 5 years, although under natural conditions it may be considerably shorter.*


Now I'd like to play nice,
P-


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## DonPetro (Jul 25, 2014)

Soooo...does leaf mold make good worm food and lead to further diversification of the finished product? What are the best leaves to use? What leaves should one avoid? Is it possible to have to much humus in your soil mix? I believe humus to be the real secret weapon when wanting to go water-only. I feel like peat and coco are just fillers and we spend too much effort debating this stuff. Its only 1/3 of any mix most of the time anyway. Haven't heard much about using manures in anyones soil mix. How does everyone feel about steer manure?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 25, 2014)

Word to the wise, don't under estimate the vigor of a green zebra. I'll give more respect to the term 'indeterminate' lol! Mine is already 2' above the top of the tomato cage and it's in a 15 gallon pot.



Edit: btw, the spots on the leaves are thrip damage. They can be more easily spotted by the damage then the insect imo. Spinosad at night has seemed to work. I still have bees flying around, and I did not have thrips for a long time after one spray. I'm just now starting to see a few make their way back, and I have a lot of trees and other foliage close by which was not treated.

P-


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## Pattahabi (Jul 25, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Soooo...does leaf mold make good worm food and lead to further diversification of the finished product? What are the best leaves to use? What leaves should one avoid? Is it possible to have to much humus in your soil mix? I believe humus to be the real secret weapon when wanting to go water-only. I feel like peat and coco are just fillers and we spend too much effort debating this stuff. Its only 1/3 of any mix most of the time anyway. Haven't heard much about using manures in anyones soil mix. How does everyone feel about steer manure?


DonP, from what I have read leaf mold is very good worm food. My anecdotal evidence is they like it, but I'm going to experiment more in the near future. The diversification of final product is exactly the information I'm looking for. I've read some articles that hint that not all humus is equal. In addition it sounds like what really happens is we get a lot of not quite humus material. I know I posted this link, but I'd love to see other people read it and give their impressions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humus



> It is difficult to define humus precisely; it is a highly complex substance, which is still not fully understood. Humus should be differentiated from decomposing organic matter. The latter is rough-looking material[8][9] and remains of the original plant are still visible. Fully humified organic matter, on the other hand, has a uniform dark, spongy, jelly-like appearance, and is amorphous. It may remain like this for millennia or more.[18] It has no determinate shape, structure or character. However, humified organic matter, when examined under the microscope may reveal tiny plant, animal or microbial remains that have been mechanically, but not chemically, degraded.[19] This suggests a fuzzy boundary between humus and organic matter. In most literature, humus is considered an integral part of soil organic matter





> *Stability*
> Compost that is readily capable of further decomposition is sometimes referred to as effective or active humus, though scientists would say that, if it is not stable, it is not humus at all. This kind of compost, rich in plant remains and fulvic acids, is an excellent source of plant nutrients, but of little value with respect to long-term soil structure and tilth. Stable (or passive) humus consists of humic acids and humins, which are so highly insoluble, or so tightly bound to clay particles and hydroxides, that they cannot be penetrated by microbes and are greatly resistant to further decomposition.[8][9] Thus stable humus adds few readily available nutrients to the soil, but plays an essential part in providing its physical structure. Some very stable humus complexes have survived for thousands of years.[18] The most stable humus is that formed from the slow oxidation of black carbon, after the incorporation of finely powdered charcoal into the topsoil. This process is at the origin of the formation of the fertile Amazonian dark earths or Terra preta do Indio


I want to know what effects different source material for humus has, if any. Obviously the Biosolids still contain high levels of heavy metals even after thermo and vermi composting. What remains of our base ingredient, and what effect does this have on our crops?

I have read a couple of reports that 100% ewc did not fair well. I'll have to look if I still have it.The only reason I stay away from cow manure is I had a few crops jacked up because of high sodium levels, which I believe to be from the manure.

P-


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## DonTesla (Jul 25, 2014)

stop beating dead horses, good idea.. this is a ROLS thread i don't care to partake in pH talks, or coir vs peat talk. That shit is weak, like last week. We have a coir vs peat side by side going down. Thats some solid action.. who cares about the CEC of 20% of ur mix, whats the CEC and OTHER factors of the WHOLE mix.. humus rich bases are different. Tune in to that, and stop trying to compare oranges to apples in a banana thread… Example: You're talking AVERAGE LIFE SPAN I'm talking MAXIMUM LIFE SPAN (NOTED BY REAL LIFE Wiggler FARMERS ON BIG ACREAGES, NOWADAYS according to their knowledge experience and expertise). (You call that "misinforming ppl with stupid crap" -P, yet you don't see I'm talking wiggler MAX LIFE not AVERAGE LIFE, which, to me, is the truly stupid part).. 

You think promoting of coir is annoying, great. I think how you provoke ppl (after a good healthy debate, (all while you stay judgmental and biased) then wanna "insult one second/play nice the next" is a little too bipolar and fake and racist for me.. use had some good posts but stop interacting with me and quoting me i am done with you. you're hard headed.. i was warned about you and now i see. Your obsessive nature over defending your biased positions blinds you to the inherently important syntaxes that prelude any accurate debate.. at least i can stay open minded, admit mistakes and give props where they are due..when due. and so drop your game on leaf mold, whatever else you got, but shut up about the CEC of peat and coir, thats 20% focus. Pareto's Law. Who cares. You handle the peat and Averages, I'll handle the coir and Maxes. Contribute to organics without ever talking to each other again, kapeesh?


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 25, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> stop beating dead horses, good idea.. this is a ROLS thread i don't care to partake in pH talks, or coir vs peat talk. That shit is weak, like last week. We have a coir vs peat side by side going down. Thats some solid action.. who cares about the CEC of 20% of ur mix, whats the CEC and OTHER factors of the WHOLE mix.. humus rich bases are different. Tune in to that, and stop trying to compare oranges to apples in a banana thread… Example: You're talking AVERAGE LIFE SPAN I'm talking *MAXIMUM LIFE SPAN *(NOTED BY REAL LIFE Wiggler FARMERS ON BIG ACREAGES, NOWADAYS according to their knowledge experience and expertise). (You call that "misinforming ppl with stupid crap" -P, *yet you don't see I'm talking wiggler MAX LIFE not AVERAGE LIFE, which, to me, is the truly stupid part).. *
> 
> You think promoting of coir is annoying, great. I think how you provoke ppl (after a good healthy debate, (all while you stay judgmental and biased) then wanna "insult one second/play nice the next" is a little too bipolar and fake and racist for me.. use had some good posts but stop interacting with me and quoting me i am done with you. you're hard headed.. i was warned about you and now i see. Your obsessive nature over defending your biased positions blinds you to the inherently important syntaxes that prelude any accurate debate.. at least i can stay open minded, admit mistakes and give props where they are due..when due. and so drop your game on leaf mold, whatever else you got, but shut up about the CEC of peat and coir, thats 20% focus. Pareto's Law. Who cares. You handle the peat and Averages, I'll handle the coir and Maxes. Contribute to organics without ever talking to each other again, kapeesh?


From my quote:

In controlled conditions, the average life span is 594 days at 18°C(64.4°F) and 589 days at 28°C(82.4°F) with a *maximum life expectancy between 4.5 and 5 years, although under natural conditions it may be considerably shorter.*

Call that hard headed, I'm looking for your facts on worms. 

Still going to play nice,
P-


----------



## SpaaaceCowboy (Jul 25, 2014)

what happens when the worms die ? Do the other worms eat them ? Or do you have to take them out ?


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 25, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> what happens when the worms die ? Do the other worms eat them ? Or do you have to take them out ?


They will break down and become humus.


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 25, 2014)

*Full Text*



> Leaf mold is an excellent, free soil amendment. It is easy to make, simple to use, and has a huge impact on soil health.
> 
> What is Leaf Mold?
> 
> ...


I know nothing about this, but maybe something to consider (as well as the source of the leaves - were they sprayed with anything? Remember, Roundup (Glyphosate) has a half life of 22 years.



> I just want to giive a heads up that from what I've read a majority of trash bags have some type of pesticide coating to prevent bugs from being in your trash. Here in america at least such thing isn't required to be on the label so practice caution my fellow organic fanatics.


Jaykush says making your leaf mold in a pit rather then above ground will make it faster and better.

In some quick reading I'm seeing people saying they are substituting 1:1 leaves to peat, others are mixing with peat.

Now I need to get back to What Plants Know. This is a $10 book from amazon, and I have to say thought provoking is an understatement. Excellent read, and here's the first chapter:

P-


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## DonPetro (Jul 25, 2014)

Ok everyone...consider this mix:
3 cubic foot base mix composed of 37.5% humus-rich soil, 18.75% coir, 9.375% worm castings, 9.375% composted steer manure and 25% perlite.
Added to the base is 1 cup of the following amendments:
-blood meal
-bone meal
-alfalfa meal
-kelp meal
-neem meal
-rock phosphate
-greensand
-dolomite lime
Also added 1 cup each 5-2-4 organic dry all-purpose, crushed eggshells and rice. Any suggestions?


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 25, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> In the short term you can try a product called "RePeet" which is essentially composted dairy manure. I don't know where you live, so not sure on the availability of it around you.
> 
> http://www.organix.us/product/repeat/
> 
> In the long term leaf mold is where it's at. A simple rake and mulch (plus adding a N source to speed up decomposition) is all that needs to be done. It's a fungal dominant cold composting process that will yield a great soil ammendment in around 12 months. I have some leaves from last fall that I'm going to be using as a substitute for peat/coco this fall. I will be saving all of my leaves from this falls clean up and will be completely peat/coco free next year. I'm going to be starting a thread on leaf mold (with Rrog) at some point either here or in the Michigan section.


Wow I'm excited about leaf mold!! What happened to me.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 25, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Ok everyone...consider this mix:
> 3 cubic foot base mix composed of 37.5% humus-rich soil, 18.75% coir, 9.375% worm castings, 9.375% composted steer manure and 25% perlite.
> Added to the base is 1 cup of the following amendments:
> -blood meal
> ...



Rock dusts


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 25, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Rock dusts


In place of the lime?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 25, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> In place of the lime?



In addition to. I use oyster shell flour for liming, and in addition to that 3-4 cups per cf of rock fines. Minerals/trace elements are mostly absent in the soils we put together unless we add them.


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 25, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> In addition to. I use oyster shell flour for liming, and in addition to that 3-4 cups per cf of rock fines. Minerals/trace elements are mostly absent in the soils we put together unless we add them.


Greensand and the rock phosphates are loaded with trace elements as with the kelp. Was thinking we had that covered. Would still like to source some glacial rock dust regardless.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 25, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Greensand and the rock phosphates are loaded with trace elements as with the kelp. Was thinking we had that covered. Would still like to source some glacial rock dust regardless.


Is the SRP granular?


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 25, 2014)

@st0wandgrow 
Have both actually. Micronized and granular. I know that stuff takes awhile to break down. Also have a cup of crushed eggshells in there.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 25, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> @st0wandgrow
> Have both actually. Micronized and granular. I know that stuff takes awhile to break down. Also have a cup of crushed eggshells in there.



You can only add so much SRP for obvious reasons and its slow to break down. Greensand is probably bio available quicker, but still slow..... and again, probably not something that you want to be applying at 3-4 cups per cf. rock dusts can be applied liberally bringing those trace minerals and also increasing the cec of your soil.

There are enough people that have been at this for quite a while that strongly recommend this, so it is info that you can take to the bank IMO. I would say next to your source of compost, rock dusts would be second in line in order of importance.


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 26, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> You can only add so much SRP for obvious reasons and its slow to break down. Greensand is probably bio available quicker, but still slow..... and again, probably not something that you want to be applying at 3-4 cups per cf. rock dusts can be applied liberally bringing those trace minerals and also increasing the cec of your soil.
> 
> There are enough people that have been at this for quite a while that strongly recommend this, so it is info that you can take to the bank IMO. I would say next to your source of compost, rock dusts would be second in line in order of importance.


Right on man. So lets see if this makes sense...
So we been rocking pretty good without the addition of these rock dusts...what affect does the availability of trace minerals and a higher cec have on overall plant health? Will we see an increase in yield?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 26, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Right on man. So lets see if this makes sense...
> So we been rocking pretty good without the addition of these rock dusts...what affect does the availability of trace minerals and a higher cec have on overall plant health? Will we see an increase in yield?



Anecdotal evidence only, but I noticed improvements in vigor, yield and health of the plants when I followed coots advice and added rock dusts. My first couple batches of soil went without it because I was still focusing solely on NPK. Subsequent soils had the rock dusts included and I could see the benefits, particularly when you get in to the 2'nd and 3'rd runs of that same bucket .

If you have a rock quarry close by you could take a 5 gallon bucket up there and ask the owner if he'd mind giving/selling you some. Places that carve headstones, or custom install granite counter tops are also good places to check with. If worse comes to worse you can order it online. There's a place in the states here called rock dust local that I ordered from before stumbling on a rock quarry close to my house. I want to say I paid $70'ish for the stuff online and it lasted quite a while. 80lbs worth for that price, and you get roughly 3 cups per lb. That would give you enough to amend 80cf of soil.


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 26, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Anecdotal evidence only, but I noticed improvements in vigor, yield and health of the plants when I followed coots advice and added rock dusts. My first couple batches of soil went without it because I was still focusing solely on NPK. Subsequent soils had the rock dusts included and I could see the benefits, particularly when you get in to the 2'nd and 3'rd runs of that same bucket .
> 
> If you have a rock quarry close by you could take a 5 gallon bucket up there and ask the owner if he'd mind giving/selling you some. Places that carve headstones, or custom install granite counter tops are also good places to check with. If worse comes to worse you can order it online. There's a place in the states here called rock dust local that I ordered from before stumbling on a rock quarry close to my house. I want to say I paid $70'ish for the stuff online and it lasted quite a while. 80lbs worth for that price, and you get roughly 3 cups per lb. That would give you enough to amend 80cf of soil.


Yea i've noticed its pretty cheap cost wise so it only makes sense to use it. Does it bring in added cal and mag as well? Im just wondering about toxicity.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 26, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Yea i've noticed its pretty cheap cost wise so it only makes sense to use it. Does it bring in added cal and mag as well? Im just wondering about toxicity.


I'm able to source basalt and granite. I don't believe that there is any substantial amount of either ca or mg in those. Some silica IIRC


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## foreverflyhi (Jul 26, 2014)

I bought a 60lbs bag of glacial rock 2 years ago, still have half bag!

Is rock dust the same as Dolomite or shells high in ca, they aren't suppose to be put in water feedings ir top dress? Not soluble right? Or am i wrong?

I remember reading some where that a fungi dominated tea with rock dust can be beneficial because the fungi uses the rock to attach to and multiply?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 26, 2014)

Spurr said recently rock dust provide soluble ions. I thought that was really interesting. Maybe this attachment will help with what is in the rock dust.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 26, 2014)

Oh damn! Look what just showed up on my doorstep today! 



Sofa king excited!
P-


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## DonPetro (Jul 26, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Oh damn! Look what just showed up on my doorstep today!
> 
> View attachment 3213747
> 
> ...


Link please!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jul 26, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Oh damn! Look what just showed up on my doorstep today!
> 
> View attachment 3213747
> 
> ...



Ohh snap! You can post up some microbe porn now.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 26, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Link please!


You know it! Highly recommend *This One*.



st0wandgrow said:


> Ohh snap! You can post up some microbe porn now.


Dude, I'm so siked! I need to get a camera and adapter, but that will be happening shortly. Just checking out the DVD's is already blowing my mind. I mean, we all know this is a living soil, but DAMN! Already threw some of the homemade yogurt on a slide lol! It's been a couple hours, I'm hooked!

Going to make some soil/EWC slurries now! 

P-


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## DonPetro (Jul 26, 2014)

Thats a nice unit but a little out of my price range. Cant wait for the pics.


----------



## SpaaaceCowboy (Jul 26, 2014)




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## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 26, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Oh damn! Look what just showed up on my doorstep today!
> 
> View attachment 3213747
> 
> ...


Sweet geek out.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 26, 2014)

Does anyone put everything (minerals neem kelp ect.) into the compost pile then feed to the worms? Does this make everything more available? Waste of time? Would be cool to just add the castings to the peat and aeration of choice.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jul 27, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Oh damn! Look what just showed up on my doorstep today!
> 
> View attachment 3213747
> 
> ...


Easily a top 5 pic for me in my RUI journey. I would eye fuck that baby all night


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 27, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Easily a top 5 pic for me in my RUI journey. I would eye fuck that baby all night


RCM, havent seen you in forever. How you been?


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Jul 27, 2014)

I thought we we're just growing pot???...............nice unit P, affordable considering the XXXXXXXXXXXs....lol......

.jealous, can't wait for pics!!!!......


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## Pattahabi (Jul 27, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> I thought we we're just growing pot???...............nice unit P, affordable considering the XXXXXXXXXXXs....lol......
> 
> .jealous, can't wait for pics!!!!......


Haha! Thanks Psuagro! Really, if you take a look at options and whatnot, that scope is a steal imo. 20w halogen a must imo, kohler capable, trinocular port, 20x objective instead of the 100x I would never use, custom made filters, instructional dvd's, etc. It is a real deal scope, definitely not a kid's toy.

Going to take me just a bit on picts as I don't have a camera or adapter, but that is on the agenda in the near future. I want to see for myself what my brewer and different recipes produce. I don't doubt MM's findings for a second, I just want to see with my variables what I end up with. I also bought a DO meter. I have a couple of friends I'm going to either take a look at their brewer and test it, or just build them one and test it. One thing I found out real quick is if you are in high altitude, you're going to need a little bigger pump for your teas.

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Jul 27, 2014)

Been practicing on building natural walls for camoflauge, pole beans, hops and potatoes. In 4 months i will start tilling and amending the inner fences of my whole back yard for hops. Hops= home brew micro beer!

Notice back right wetdream, theres onee large 9lbs aand a couple small 9lbs right behind pole bean wall. Can u spot it?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 27, 2014)

Yo, Foreverfly, I have been thinking a lot lately about what the terpenes of hops would be like grown in ROLS. It's been forever and a day since I brewed any beer. Have you done any comparisons of hops grown different ways?

Many thanks!
P-


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jul 27, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Yo, Foreverfly, I have been thinking a lot lately about what the terpenes of hops would be like grown in ROLS. It's been forever and a day since I brewed any beer. Have you done any comparisons of hops grown different ways?
> 
> Many thanks!
> P-


Unfurtantley I haven't, i brew maybe 4-5 batches of my own brew, but never grew enough hops for my own batch.
Probelm is i sourced 2 diffrent types of hops from a local brewery and wasnt able to tell the difference.

So i can only assume that either the hops arnt the best quality, and or havent figured out the right recipe.

If my memory serves me right, most of my brews where very hoppy with some bitterness.

Next year i will be growing 3-4 diffrent varieties, with 2 diffrent recipes too prove my theory that quality of the beer comes from the hops = soil 

Which i know is the case because i took a field trip tour of stone brewery organic garden for my agriculture class, and they claim that all their beers will always be diffrent but high quality because of the varieties and quality of their hops.

Help me choose? Anyone
http://www.beeradvocate.com/beer/101/hops/


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 27, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Unfurtantley I haven't, i brew maybe 4-5 batches of my own brew, but never grew enough hops for my own batch.
> Probelm is i sourced 2 diffrent types of hops from a local brewery and wasnt able to tell the difference.
> 
> So i can only assume that either the hops arnt the best quality, and or havent figured out the right recipe.
> ...


I can only imagine you will get amazing hops from your ROLS. And Stone is the bomb! I don't drink much anymore, but when I do, it's usually a Stone. 

I love Cascade!

P-


----------



## a senile fungus (Jul 27, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Haha! Thanks Psuagro! Really, if you take a look at options and whatnot, that scope is a steal imo. 20w halogen a must imo, kohler capable, trinocular port, 20x objective instead of the 100x I would never use, custom made filters, instructional dvd's, etc. It is a real deal scope, definitely not a kid's toy.
> 
> Going to take me just a bit on picts as I don't have a camera or adapter, but that is on the agenda in the near future. I want to see for myself what my brewer and different recipes produce. I don't doubt MM's findings for a second, I just want to see with my variables what I end up with. I also bought a DO meter. I have a couple of friends I'm going to either take a look at their brewer and test it, or just build them one and test it. One thing I found out real quick is if you are in high altitude, you're going to need a little bigger pump for your teas.
> 
> P-



You should just be able to hold your camera up the microscope lens...

Try it and see, may save you some money on extras...

I know I've done it using my phone camera and binoculars and telescopes, I don't see how a microscope would be any different...


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 27, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Unfurtantley I haven't, i brew maybe 4-5 batches of my own brew, but never grew enough hops for my own batch.
> Probelm is i sourced 2 diffrent types of hops from a local brewery and wasnt able to tell the difference.
> 
> So i can only assume that either the hops arnt the best quality, and or havent figured out the right recipe.
> ...


simcoe cascade if u want a nice hoppy ipa!!!


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 29, 2014)

So I tried to take a picture from the microscope with my iphone. Didn't work at all. Looks more like a super nova or something lmao.



I did see a lot of fungal hyphae, bacteria, flagellates, cilia, etc. I'm still waiting for an ameba. 

P-


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jul 30, 2014)

Here's Pineapple Express courtesy of ROLS. So easy a caveman can do it!


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## DonPetro (Jul 30, 2014)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> Here's Pineapple Express courtesy of ROLS. So easy a caveman can do it!
> 
> View attachment 3217097
> 
> View attachment 3217100


Nice! Is that one plant?!


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jul 30, 2014)

Yes, one plant.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 30, 2014)

Small scale pollen chuck, G13/hp female and pollen.



P-


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 30, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Small scale pollen chuck, G13/hp female and pollen.
> 
> View attachment 3217205
> 
> P-


Mr. Nice?


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jul 30, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Small scale pollen chuck, G13/hp female and pollen.
> 
> View attachment 3217205
> 
> P-


I have a little 1.5x1.5 tent, was thinking looking for a male. Thibking any og rascal strain would due


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## Pattahabi (Jul 30, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Mr. Nice?


Hey DP, it's Hazeman, I didn't realize Mr.Nice had a version. I would much rather have their genetics.



foreverflyhi said:


> I have a little 1.5x1.5 tent, was thinking looking for a male. Thibking any ig rascal strain would due


Hey ForeverFly! I Loved WiFi and White Urkel. I had been thinking about the White Fire Alien for breeding. Do you have your eye on any strains in particular from OGR?

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Jul 30, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey ForeverFly! I Loved WiFi and White Urkel. I had been thinking about the White Fire Alien for breeding. Do you have your eye on any strains in particular from OGR?
> 
> P-


Im a huge fan of any alien genetics, very rotten wet carpet OG smell with large yields. Dont get me wrong tho, love all the whites and fires!


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 30, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey DP, it's Hazeman, I didn't realize Mr.Nice had a version. I would much rather have their genetics.
> 
> 
> Hey ForeverFly! I Loved WiFi and White Urkel. I had been thinking about the White Fire Alien for breeding. Do you have your eye on any strains in particular from OGR?
> ...


My apologies...is Sensi that has it. The name threw me off.
http://www.herbiesheadshop.com/mobile/sensi-mr-nice-g13-x-hash-plant-seeds-473
Mr. Nice Seeds though has a G13/Haze i wanna get my hands on.


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 30, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> My apologies...is Sensi that has it. The name threw me off.
> http://www.herbiesheadshop.com/mobile/sensi-mr-nice-g13-x-hash-plant-seeds-473
> Mr. Nice Seeds though has a G13/Haze i wanna get my hands on.


Yeah, I'm not a Sensi fan, not the new stuff anyway. I love Mr.Nice, I have some Black Widow in veg right now.


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 31, 2014)

Everything is a mess as I'm in the middle of building a new room for fall flowering. With that said, veg plants atm. Still sexing and picking out my ladies (there was even a little bending over and tying down). 



I ran out of my normal EWC, so I top dressed with a little buffaloam, dried comfrey, and then covered with leaf mulch.

Peace!
P-


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Jul 31, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Everything is a mess as I'm in the middle of building a new room for fall flowering. With that said, veg plants atm. Still sexing and picking out my ladies (there was even a little bending over and tying down).
> 
> View attachment 3218264
> 
> ...


That's another benefit about ROLS. Find a male chuck it and replant in same pot. With bottle nutes I used to chuck the soil. Its the responsible way to grow using ROLS. The Planet needs us.


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 1, 2014)

If you were going to run a no-till, and you could have any one aeration amendment, what would you use and why?

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Aug 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> If you were going to run a no-till, and you could have any one aeration amendment, what would you use and why?
> 
> P-


If i can only choose one it would be pumice, thus far other then perlite, it last the longest, making it ideal for long term no-till. If i can make it two it would be pumice/rice hulls. Three-pumice/rice hulls/leaf mulch


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> If you were going to run a no-till, and you could have any one aeration amendment, what would you use and why?
> 
> P-



Pumice. 

Perlite floats to the top of the container, rice hulls degrade over time, and lava rock is a pain in the nuts to break up. Those are the 4 that I have used, and pumice was my favorite.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Aug 1, 2014)

well, i'd say lava rock, for the same reasons as you guys said with pumice, but technically aren't they almost the same thing?
I just started with Vermifire soil that has a lot of lava rock already in it. Perlite sucks...


----------



## hyroot (Aug 1, 2014)

pumice or coco. They all break down eventually.. Pumice is hard to find though. Sells out in an hour anytime anyone gets it in stock.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 1, 2014)

hyroot said:


> pumice or coco. They all break down eventually.. Pumice is hard to find though. Sells out in an hour anytime anyone gets it in stock.



It's impossible to find around here.


----------



## a senile fungus (Aug 1, 2014)

I just found out that the girl I'm banging has parents who own a grow shop. Her dad even offered me 20% off! That works nicely all around...


----------



## foreverflyhi (Aug 1, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> I just found out that the girl I'm banging has parents who own a grow shop. Her dad even offered me 20% off! That works nicely all around...


It aint no fun if the homies cant get none, the pumice that is


----------



## hyroot (Aug 1, 2014)

here is an update on the quantum kush ( time wreck pheno) with the cocomore from inda gro in the soil in 10 gal pot. Much larger and greener. Probably another week of veg. Maybe..... Its the largest plant. Also it was never topped or tied down. Super cropped a few times. All other plants have been topped and tied multiple times.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 1, 2014)

hyroot said:


> here is an update on the quantum kush ( time wreck pheno) with the cocomore from inda gro in the soil in 10 gal pot. Much larger and greener. Probably another week of veg. Maybe..... Its the largest plant. Also it was never topped or tied down. Super cropped a few times. All other plants have been topped and tied multiple times.
> 
> View attachment 3218799



Some cat posted a thread in the seed and strain review section claiming his quantum kush tests at 38% thc. I find that hard to believe, but the pics he posted look very frosty


----------



## hyroot (Aug 1, 2014)

in


st0wandgrow said:


> Some cat posted a thread in the seed and strain review section claiming his quantum kush tests at 38% thc. I find that hard to believe, but the pics he posted look very frosty


I haven't had mine tested. I will say both phenos are very stony. I have one patient who has fibromyalgia to the 10th power. He has to use a walker. He said it really helped with his pain. Then a few other people said it helped a lot with muscle pain. I also find 38% hard to believe. If he grew with led or induction or CMH it will have 2-3% higher THC than with hps. But 38% I don't believe. That would be the most potent strain in the world. Tga claims 30%. I've seen others test at 25% , 27% , 22%. Never tested my own. One thing I noticed about all my tga strains. The clones seem to get much more frosty than the plants from seed.


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## reasonevangelist (Aug 1, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I haven't had mine tested. I will say both phenos are very stony. I have one patient who has fibromyalgia to the 10th power. He has to use a walker. He said it really helped with his pain. Then a few other people said it helped a lot with muscle pain. I also find 38% hard to believe. If he grew with led or induction or CMH it will have 2-3% higher THC than with hps. But 38% I don't believe. That would be the most potent strain in the world. Tga claims 30%. I've seen others test at 25% , 27% , 22%. Never tested my own.


The gov't grow up in mississippi allegedly produced something that tested at 37%... (or that's a modern urban legend, but i did read that somewhere, somewhat recently...)


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 1, 2014)

Thanks for the responses everyone! Pumice was what I was thinking as well. Most porosity, still pretty light, but doesn't move around in the soil. Expanded shale and pea gravel doesn't have enough pore space for my liking. Also pretty heavy because of this. 

And I agree with everyone else, it is difficult to find. I'm embarrassed to say I paid $37 for 5 gallons once just to test it out (didn't seem like 5 gallons either). I absolutely loved it, but it was so damn expensive. I'm going to be setting up a larger vermicomposting bin and I'm looking for some aeration. Good chance it will end up no till, so I'm definitely looking for something longer lasting then perlite, and damn I hate the dust perlite makes! I like scoria a lot, but it is a little less porous, and a little heavier yet then pumice. 

Greesemonkey, yes, they are moderately similar imo, with the exception of perlite. I've really grown to hate that stuff.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lava_rock

P-


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## Mohican (Aug 1, 2014)

Orange County Farm supply has a big pile of pumice out back. I always pick up a couple of bags each spring.


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## reasonevangelist (Aug 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Thanks for the responses everyone! Pumice was what I was thinking as well. Most porosity, still pretty light, but doesn't move around in the soil. Expanded shale and pea gravel doesn't have enough pore space for my liking. Also pretty heavy because of this.
> 
> And I agree with everyone else, it is difficult to find. I'm embarrassed to say I paid $37 for 5 gallons once just to test it out (didn't seem like 5 gallons either). I absolutely loved it, but it was so damn expensive. I'm going to be setting up a larger vermicomposting bin and I'm looking for some aeration. Good chance it will end up no till, so I'm definitely looking for something longer lasting then perlite, and damn I hate the dust perlite makes! I like scoria a lot, but it is a little less porous, and a little heavier yet then pumice.
> 
> ...


Oh, i would have answered "PBH and lava rock." I know that's not "one," but is what i would want to use in my ideal mix, according to all i've read so far.


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## Mohican (Aug 1, 2014)

Here is my cut of Hyroot's Quantum Kush planted in the Blue Dream stump soil:



Cheers,
Mo


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## Pattahabi (Aug 1, 2014)

This is probably obvious, but what is PBH? Rice hulls? I'm concerned they are going to break down too often, but good amendment, especially how local/sustainable it is.

Hey Mo, can I ask what you pay for pumice, and what size it is? I'm with Stow, my days of smashing lava rock for gardening are over! lol!


Thanks!
P-


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## Mohican (Aug 1, 2014)

I remember it was pretty cheap and they give it to you in these woven white plastic potato sacks. I was using the bags to hold down my pool cover corners but the bags started to disintegrate and the pumice was pouring out.


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## Chronikool (Aug 1, 2014)

I use Zeolite....and coco


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## reasonevangelist (Aug 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> This is probably obvious, but what is PBH? Rice hulls? I'm concerned they are going to break down too often, but good amendment, especially how local/sustainable it is.
> 
> Hey Mo, can I ask what you pay for pumice, and what size it is? I'm with Stow, my days of smashing lava rock for gardening are over! lol!
> 
> ...


Yep. "Parboiled rice hulls." I would have made the acronym "PRH," but i didn't get the chance to name the stuff.  

I would simply top dress in a bit more periodically... i'm assuming that the parts that gradually break down and perhaps dissolve, and would then be slowly flushed by repeated watering, could also be amended in via top dress, just as gradually. 

But yeah, it's a good line of questioning... if you had to build a soil that had to last as long as possible and remain effective... like if there was a weed apocalypse or something, and your last batch of soil was going to be the last batch you could ever make... AND you're not allowed to till it... (lol), then i suppose you'd want to know how to get it right in one try. 

And the bonus on that is if you figure it out before the "apotcalpyse," you could prepare well in advance, and have many yards worth of all you'd need...


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Aug 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> If you were going to run a no-till, and you could have any one aeration amendment, what would you use and why?
> 
> P-


coco


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 1, 2014)

Reason, I don't know about the 'apotcalpyse', but I'm looking to run no-tills where remixing the soil kinda defeats the purpose. So when I mix up 200 gallons of soil and grow in it smart pot and grow continuously for the next 3 years it won't break down. Thus the title of the thread No-Till. 

So with all respect, while things like leaf mold and coco are awesome, I'm looking for a sturdy aeration that will hold some oxygen, not break down quickly, and could potentially add to the mineral content over time. I like pumice a lot, I just can't find any around here.


P-


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## reasonevangelist (Aug 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Reason, I don't know about the 'apotcalpyse', but I'm looking to run no-tills where remixing the soil kinda defeats the purpose. So when I mix up 200 gallons of soil and grow in it smart pot and grow continuously for the next 3 years it won't break down. Thus the title of the thread No-Till.
> 
> So with all respect, while things like leaf mold and coco are awesome, I'm looking for a sturdy aeration that will hold some oxygen, not break down quickly, and could potentially add to the mineral content over time. I like pumice a lot, I just can't find any around here.
> 
> ...


Yeah, tell me about it (i was just having fun imagination time with that 'apotcalpyse' thing), my regions grows all kinds of rice, but i have yet to locate a purchasable container of them locally. 

I tend to think lava rocks won't break down. They've been around for thousands of years! But they're kinda heavy i guess. Or are they? 

And i saw on the package/info for that "cocomur" that hyroot's testing, claims that it can last 10 years (or more?)... 

Seems like anything made of or from rock, takes a long time to break down. 

I would also think that, in this context, aeration would be fine as merely inert substance w/ proper characteristics, since you can always amend the mix with locally (mostly) available substances. Do you think, through tens or hundreds of waterings, that lava rock would gradually descend and accumulate in the bottom of the container? Or would the non-rocks parts compress and dissolve around the rocks, without affecting their position, as new materials are added? (e.g. vermicompost, mulch, etc)


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## CannaBare (Aug 3, 2014)

Quick question.

I've been harvesting and trimming mother plants and the trim is pilling up. I usually just dumb it in a local forest but this time I am considering composting it. Can I compost material that has been grown with Maxibloom as long as the leaves have no salt residue on them? I ask because it was be so much free rich compost, but I want to make sure I wont kill my worms and bacterias.

I doubt I will ever move my mother plants away from Maxibloom as it is just toooo easy. But they produce a lot of foliage I could easily compost.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 3, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Can I compost material that has been grown with Maxibloom



Yes


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## hyroot (Aug 3, 2014)

compost tea vs top dressing vermicompost. Thoughts?

I was thinking about maybe only doing a few more teas this round instead of topdressing or just topdress a thinner layer. To make the homemade VC last longer. My other bin is about a month away from harvest.. I just don't want to end up having to buy any castings and compost.


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## Chronikool (Aug 3, 2014)

What about buying some castings and mixing them in with your home made castings ..to spin them out...

I'm lucky my compost bins are so full of worms...compost...vermicast...can't tell the difference..


----------



## CannaBare (Aug 3, 2014)

hyroot said:


> compost tea vs top dressing vermicompost. Thoughts?
> 
> I was thinking about maybe only doing a few more teas this round instead of topdressing or just topdress a thinner layer. To make the homemade VC last longer. My other bin is about a month away from harvest.. I just don't want to end up having to buy any castings and compost.


You can always top dress the ingredients after making the tea. Two birds


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Aug 4, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Reason, I don't know about the 'apotcalpyse', but I'm looking to run no-tills where remixing the soil kinda defeats the purpose. So when I mix up 200 gallons of soil and grow in it smart pot and grow continuously for the next 3 years it won't break down. Thus the title of the thread No-Till.
> 
> So with all respect, while things like leaf mold and coco are awesome, I'm looking for a sturdy aeration that will hold some oxygen, not break down quickly, and could potentially add to the mineral content over time. I like pumice a lot, I just can't find any around here.
> 
> ...


Keeping this thread moist and thriving I see...

IMO lava rock is the best all round...as long as you have a strong back. On my third run with cheap bulk rice hulls, and they're still doing their job.


----------



## RedCarpetMatches (Aug 4, 2014)

hyroot said:


> compost tea vs top dressing vermicompost. Thoughts?
> 
> I was thinking about maybe only doing a few more teas this round instead of topdressing or just topdress a thinner layer. To make the homemade VC last longer. My other bin is about a month away from harvest.. I just don't want to end up having to buy any castings and compost.


I've often wondered if we even need either if there's so much in our mix. I'd love to see a tea vs top dressing vs just mix.


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## Maritime Marauder (Aug 4, 2014)

New member, just came across this great thread, all subbed up!


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## x713 (Aug 5, 2014)

whats up with the *high brix* talk i see it all the time.i take a break from growing and more bullshit is fed to the farners smh if i needed brix i go buy some from home depot.have people at hydro store telling me i need brix brix brix lol never needed it before sounds like a ploy


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## greasemonkeymann (Aug 5, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> It aint no fun if the homies cant get none, the pumice that is


 you kill me! damn funny


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Aug 5, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> Yeah, tell me about it (i was just having fun imagination time with that 'apotcalpyse' thing), my regions grows all kinds of rice, but i have yet to locate a purchasable container of them locally.
> 
> I tend to think lava rocks won't break down. They've been around for thousands of years! But they're kinda heavy i guess. Or are they?
> 
> ...


 I don't know, I honestly haven't seen any settling with my lava rocks, they kinda stay where they are mixed, I don't mix a whole lot, just to re amend a lil, I've seen perlite float, even without watering, but it's so much lighter than the soil, and I think lava rock has a denseness that kinda lends itself well to being mixed with a soil heavy in EWC, keep in mind how much a bag of lavarock feels, in comparison to a bag of soil or especially castings (dense as hell) , it's not too far apart, soil is heavy... I LOVE lava rock, after my initial purchases of my soil mix (vermifire), I haven't bought soil in over a year now, (five harvests, I think) I have a bad back or I would have tried recycling my soil sooner, but with low amounts of mixing, hence the "no-till" attraction for me, I can't go and mix up my soil for hours and not pay the price the next morning
It's not as hard as you'd think
but no, when I get to the bottom of my mixing bin, it's the same as the regular soil, not all full of lavarock. I think over mixing MAY do it, but who knows, just don't overmix.


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## reasonevangelist (Aug 5, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I don't know, I honestly haven't seen any settling with my lava rocks, they kinda stay where they are mixed, I don't mix a whole lot, just to re amend a lil, I've seen perlite float, even without watering, but it's so much lighter than the soil, and I think lava rock has a denseness that kinda lends itself well to being mixed with a soil heavy in EWC, keep in mind how much a bag of lavarock feels, in comparison to a bag of soil or especially castings (dense as hell) , it's not too far apart, soil is heavy... I LOVE lava rock, after my initial purchases of my soil mix (vermifire), I haven't bought soil in over a year now, (five harvests, I think) I have a bad back or I would have tried recycling my soil sooner, but with low amounts of mixing, hence the "no-till" attraction for me, I can't go and mix up my soil for hours and not pay the price the next morning
> It's not as hard as you'd think
> but no, when I get to the bottom of my mixing bin, it's the same as the regular soil, not all full of lavarock. I think over mixing MAY do it, but who knows, just don't overmix.


Just what i was hoping for: someone with lava rock experience, who has paid attention to whether it moves around or mostly stays put. ^^ 

Now the big question (for me) is: from where to source untainted horticultural scoria (red lava rock)? 

Most of what i've seen available, seems to be intended for decorative purposes, and not sure whether anything unwanted has been added to it.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Aug 5, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> Just what i was hoping for: someone with lava rock experience, who has paid attention to whether it moves around or mostly stays put. ^^
> 
> Now the big question (for me) is: from where to source untainted horticultural scoria (red lava rock)?
> 
> Most of what i've seen available, seems to be intended for decorative purposes, and not sure whether anything unwanted has been added to it.


 sorry, can't help there, like I mentioned, I started with vermifire, and it has a bunch of lavarock in it already.
I have ZERO idea if it's safe to use, but if you need a lot, maybe try a landscaping supply store, you could see what their smallest sizes are and go from there, not sure if they treat the rocks or anything so be diligent in trying it on a small scale if that's the route you want. I can't imagine why they'd treat lavarock with any kind of harmful chemical though, but I don't know that to be a fact


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## foreverflyhi (Aug 7, 2014)

Anyone ever use garden grade vermiculite?


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## greasemonkeymann (Aug 7, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Anyone ever use garden grade vermiculite?


 actually yes, I have used it for many grows, my brother used to, um, sheister things from a, um landscaping store... He scored me a HUGE bag of it, it works well, but it does retain a good bit of water, it works GREAT for cloning, fill a small pot full of it and the roots just go nuts, but you MUST keep it wet... For an amendment, my problem is it degrades over time, like probably three grows or so, I liked it though, but it doesn't work as well as lava rock. However i'd HIGHLY recommend it in a hot growing area, as it does retain water fairly well, at the same time if you aren't growing organically I had issues with it being kind of a magnet for nutrients, the vermiculite literally changed colors... May lead to issues over time.... I used it for organic grows and it worked MUCH better. Keep in mind my organic skills are light-years ahead of my chem-growing skills... Bottom line, if you have access to it, and it's more affordable, you can use it, but I don't recommend using it for a soil mix that you are going to re-use for an extended period of time, instead, go for the lava rock, or pumice, in my opinion. Not bad stuff though.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 7, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Anyone ever use garden grade vermiculite?



I haven't. I considered it and was told that it *may* contain asbestos so I took a pass. Not sure if the garden grade is any different though???

http://www2.epa.gov/asbestos/protect-your-family-asbestos-contaminated-vermiculite-insulation


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## greasemonkeymann (Aug 7, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I haven't. I considered it and was told that it *may* contain asbestos so I took a pass. Not sure if the garden grade is any different though???
> 
> http://www2.epa.gov/asbestos/protect-your-family-asbestos-contaminated-vermiculite-insulation


I think it contains a carcinogen, like most natural rocks, but I don't think it has asbestos. Don't KNOW that for a fact, but it's just puffed volcanic rock? Right?
Maybe the insulation stuff has a flame retardant added?


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 7, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I think it contains a carcinogen, like most natural rocks, but I don't think it has asbestos. Don't KNOW that for a fact, but it's just puffed volcanic rock? Right?
> Maybe the insulation stuff has a flame retardant added?



From the link I posted .......

"A mine near Libby, Montana, was the source of over 70 percent of all vermiculite sold in the United States from 1919 to 1990. There was also a deposit of asbestos at that mine, so the vermiculite from Libby was contaminated with asbestos."


Could be fine now, but with all of the other options I felt it was an unnecessary risk.


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## foreverflyhi (Aug 7, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> From the link I posted .......
> 
> "A mine near Libby, Montana, was the source of over 70 percent of all vermiculite sold in the United States from 1919 to 1990. There was also a deposit of asbestos at that mine, so the vermiculite from Libby was contaminated with asbestos."
> 
> ...


I too haave heard about asbestos. But i also heard vermiculite is safe to use in gardens, thats why i said garden saafe. I just came back from HD and right next to the perlite for 9.99, there was vermiculite for 18.99$ huge price diffrence. 

Idk how but i ended up with a shit ton of vermiculite from my job that was sitting in a warehouse, i will be experimenting with a clone and a new baatch of soil.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 7, 2014)

I loved this link for lava rock aeration. I do not use vermiculite because of the asbestos, but dang, look at that cec! (I would like to know where they got these numbers from?)

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Aug 7, 2014)

Ok so first thing is first, i want to use what i got, so i have decided to use all my vermiculite, i read from a couple different articles to drench the vermiculite and becareful not to inhale it. 

I also hve a shit ton of timothy hay for the rabbit, i set aside half for my one rabbit, and will use the other half for mulch, from my understanding, hay is for animal feed, which consist of the leaf flower and seed, straw is just the bone stalk of whatever plant? 
I read hay can have problems with weeds but still works for mulching, what u guys think? Should i use it? Would save me some money? Plus i waant to use what i got.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 7, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Ok so first thing is first, i want to use what i got, so i have decided to use all my vermiculite, i read from a couple different articles to drench the vermiculite and becareful not to inhale it.
> 
> I also hve a shit ton of timothy hay for the rabbit, i set aside half for my one rabbit, and will use the other half for mulch, from my understanding, hay is for animal feed, which consist of the leaf flower and seed, straw is just the bone stalk of whatever plant?
> I read hay can have problems with weeds but still works for mulching, what u guys think? Should i use it? Would save me some money? Plus i waant to use what i got.


I've been looking for materials to thermal compost, and I had the same question about hay vs straw. What I found is what you said, one has seeds, one doesn't (please speak up if there are other differences I'm not aware of). I'm hoping to thermal compost mine to kill the weed seeds, but I'm not really sure how worried I am about some hay seeds coming up?

P-


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## a senile fungus (Aug 8, 2014)

Straw is a bedding, low nutritional content and it drains well.

Hay is dried grasses and stuff, higher in N I'm sure and yes it has seeds. Those seeds are just grass, so that'd be what would be growing.

I would use hay, for the nutrition and I think it'd break down better/easier than straw would, just because of the inherent composition of straw.

I grew up on a horse farm, finally a question I can answer!


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## hyroot (Aug 8, 2014)

Here is a 9lb hammer in straight coco nothing else. No perlite or anything. its the cocomor from Inda Gro. It seems to have very good cec. I watered 3 days ago and it still has a lot of moisture and with good aeration. all plants were watered with a compost tea 3 days ago. The all coco plant has more moisture than the peat / coco plants. Both plants in the picture are both 9lb hammer.



I will be topdressing with nutes and vc next watering.

I'm going to try cloning in this coco today too. I took cuttings last night. So far I like this coco.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Aug 8, 2014)

I have a 2cu/ft happy frog bag. that I want to get rid of, going to try the ROLS for first time. If I use the CC nutrient pack from BAS plus EWC. Can the happy frog be reused if top dressed with compost after first harvest?

BTW going to use a 2x4 plastic try. approx. 20 gallons total.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 8, 2014)

Confidential Cheese



P-


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## Mohican (Aug 9, 2014)

Hey hyroot - you might want to throw some EWC on that coco to give her some quick cal mag. What are you feeding her?


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## foreverflyhi (Aug 9, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Hey hyroot - you might want to throw some EWC on that coco to give her some quick cal mag. What are you feeding her?


Agree, shes has that look where numerous deficiancies are about to occur..


OutofLEDCloset said:


> I have a 2cu/ft happy frog bag. that I want to get rid of, going to try the ROLS for first time. If I use the CC nutrient pack from BAS plus EWC. Can the happy frog be reused if top dressed with compost after first harvest?
> 
> BTW going to use a 2x4 plastic try. approx. 20 gallons total.


Use the bag soil for vegging first month or so, meanwhile start a fresh batch of soil, takes a month to get soil ready to go. Ditch the bottles, or use them just for your veg.


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## hyroot (Aug 9, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Agree, shes has that look where numerous deficiancies are about to occur..





Mohican said:


> Hey hyroot - you might want to throw some EWC on that coco to give her some quick cal mag. What are you feeding her?


That plant sat in a party cup for too long and was transplanted into that pot with coco the day before I took the pic. like I said in that post. I watered once with a compost tea and next watering i will be topdressing nutes and vc


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## CannaBare (Aug 9, 2014)

What does everyone think of only coco? I was planning a mix of 1 part composted rabbit poo, 1 part worm poo, and 1 part coco/ricehulls 50/50 for my base. Then coots recipe for the amendments. Would this be a good coco only mix?


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## hyroot (Aug 9, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> What does everyone think of only coco? I was planning a mix of 1 part composted rabbit poo, 1 part worm poo, and 1 part coco/ricehulls 50/50 for my base. Then coots recipe for the amendments. Would this be a good coco only mix?


I'm experimenting with coco / cootz recipe now. I think it depends on the coco and its cec.


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## CannaBare (Aug 9, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I'm experimenting with coco / cootz recipe now. I think it depends on the coco and its cec.


I am also looking for coco with high cec. Have you seed these sellers? They also carry coco chips. I wonder if they would be a better substitute. They coco coir they advertise says high cec.

https://www.vgrove.com/index.php?p=Online_Store,View&product=62


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## CannaBare (Aug 9, 2014)

What is everyones opinion on coco chips vs coco coir for an aeration ammendment?


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## hyroot (Aug 9, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> I am also looking for coco with high cec. Have you seed these sellers? They also carry coco chips. I wonder if they would be a better substitute. They coco coir they advertise says high cec.
> 
> https://www.vgrove.com/index.php?p=Online_Store,View&product=62



I've seen them at either home depot or lowes. I'm not trying to push the cocomor. So far it seems to have the highest cec of any coco I've tried. But the plant was just transplanted into the coco a few days ago. In a month will be a better test of the cec when the roots have grown much more.

I'm trying cloning with the cocomore too. Which is hard to work with for that purpose. It keeps fluffing up and I had to pack more coco on top after putting the cutting in the coco. Brick coco like cocotek or what ever would better for holding clones in place, bud it dries out faster. Sort of a catch 22


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## Scotch089 (Aug 10, 2014)

So I went to the fair with the fam yesterday and found a greenhouse with free seeds, I was stoked, thought it was cool they were pushing outdoor gardens how they were. Do a "scavenger hunt" in their garden and pick a pack of seeds. Cool beans! I knew Basil was an IPM plant (thanks fly) and I wanted some of the plants for next year. 

My question are any of these others good for the garden, whether it be for teas (like Cilantro) or using it as foliars like Aloe or working it as green matter in the soil. 

Sage
Cilantro
Basil 
Oregano

Then I got lettuce, tomatoes, and jalapeños. 

Lady's telling me not to waste em all (the basil) so we can make salsa and shit but of course im all about integrating what I can into the garden(s)! (indoor and out)


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 10, 2014)

Scotch089 said:


> So I went to the fair with the fam yesterday and found a greenhouse with free seeds, I was stoked, thought it was cool they were pushing outdoor gardens how they were. Do a "scavenger hunt" in their garden and pick a pack of seeds. Cool beans! I knew Basil was an IPM plant (thanks fly) and I wanted some of the plants for next year.
> 
> My question are any of these others good for the garden, whether it be for teas (like Cilantro) or using it as foliars like Aloe or working it as green matter in the soil.
> 
> ...



I know sage is....

https://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346


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## CannaBare (Aug 11, 2014)

Well my coco recipe turned out to be 

1 part coco mix (2 parts coco to 1 part rice hulls)
1 part EWC
1 part Rabbit Poo

as my base amended with 

1/2 cup Kelp
1/4 heaping cup each of Neem and Karanja
1/2 cup Crab shell
a teeny bit of alfalfa
5 cups together of Basalt, Glacial, diatomaceous earth, and greensand dusts 
and 1/2 cup of Gypsum dust

It holds less water than my peat mix but I think after a month or two after the poo breaks down it will be perfect. I am also going to try a 4 part coco base if the water retention does not eventually increase. Seems solid though 

Canna


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## Pattahabi (Aug 13, 2014)

Scotch089 said:


> So I went to the fair with the fam yesterday and found a greenhouse with free seeds, I was stoked, thought it was cool they were pushing outdoor gardens how they were. Do a "scavenger hunt" in their garden and pick a pack of seeds. Cool beans! I knew Basil was an IPM plant (thanks fly) and I wanted some of the plants for next year.
> 
> My question are any of these others good for the garden, whether it be for teas (like Cilantro) or using it as foliars like Aloe or working it as green matter in the soil.
> 
> ...


Cilantro is one of my favorites.


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## ColoradoGrowin (Aug 14, 2014)

This is my first attempt at a Los. following a recipe from the beginning of this thread. I only gave her coconut water and molasses. This was the easiest grow I've ever done and I'm pretty happy with the results! Ill be chopping within the next week and can't wait to see how she smokes!

Thanks for the help everyone! 

Happy growing.


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Aug 16, 2014)

Hey guys...Does organic soil drain better than a medium with nutes ?

I was using pro-mix with Jack's Classic, and it sometimes took a while to drain...I just got going with a little organic mix I whipped up, and it seems like the water runs right through it....It's nice not having to wait a long time for the water to drain through the pot.


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## a senile fungus (Aug 16, 2014)

It depends on what you have in your soil for aeration and drainage!


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## a senile fungus (Aug 16, 2014)

As in pumice, rice hulls, lava rock, perlite, etc


----------



## a senile fungus (Aug 16, 2014)

And yes. I can almost guarantee if you made your own soil using any recipe in the organics section that it would drain better than a pre-purchased soil, simply because of the increased ratio of ingredients that improve aeration.


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## foreverflyhi (Aug 16, 2014)

New soil batch, hopefully second round holds up and gets better.

Hy's 9lbs hammer


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Aug 16, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> And yes. I can almost guarantee if you made your own soil using any recipe in the organics section that it would drain better than a pre-purchased soil, simply because of the increased ratio of ingredients that improve aeration.


essentially the soil was the same as my old mix...My old mix was Pro-mix HP, wc, lime, and perlite....The new soil I just added Epsoma Garden Tone...Like I said I have not used the Jack's, and the soil drains beautifully now.


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## x713 (Aug 20, 2014)

i need to build my own soil again last time i did i messed up bad and used bad mushroom compost the soil grows green/yellow mushrooms.my yard is so full of ants i hate it im afraid of leaving soil out because it will turn into a huge ant pile .i get enough of them in my compost pile.i did a no no and bought some ffof to last time ill get my money worth because it will be recycled and made better


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Aug 21, 2014)

Ok guys...Well I've researched and researched so much that my gf thinks I'm nutzzz for spending so much time on the weed forums, lmao....

Anyways, this is what I've come up with for a soil...Unsure of how much for each amendment though.

From what I gather diversity among your ingredients is a good thing....So this is what I got...

Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss 
Combo of WC and some kind of compost TBD
Perlite (I already have it)
Combo of Dolomite Lime and Oyster Shell
Alfalfa Meal
Neem Meal
Kelp Meal
Crab Meal
Epsoma Tomato Tone
Rock Dust
BioAG Ful-Humix

Was unsure about if I should add Gypsum or not ?
As well as Mychorrizae ?

Thoughts on this mix ? Of course I would let it cook for like 2 or 3 months...I am assuming that would be long enough ?


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## cannakis (Aug 21, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> As in pumice, rice hulls, lava rock, perlite, etc


what about rye and wheat hulls?


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## cannakis (Aug 21, 2014)

ColoradoGrowin said:


> This is my first attempt at a Los. following a recipe from the beginning of this thread. I only gave her coconut water and molasses. This was the easiest grow I've ever done and I'm pretty happy with the results! Ill be chopping within the next week and can't wait to see how she smokes!
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone!
> 
> Happy growing.


holy shit! are you serious thats all you used to feed them?


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## foreverflyhi (Aug 21, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> Ok guys...Well I've researched and researched so much that my gf thinks I'm nutzzz for spending so much time on the weed forums, lmao....
> 
> Anyways, this is what I've come up with for a soil...Unsure of how much for each amendment though.
> 
> ...


Yea get gypsum dust, and add mycho during transplant


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 22, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> Ok guys...Well I've researched and researched so much that my gf thinks I'm nutzzz for spending so much time on the weed forums, lmao....
> 
> Anyways, this is what I've come up with for a soil...Unsure of how much for each amendment though.
> 
> ...



That's a good lookin list of ingredients right there. A safe bet for how much to use is apx 2 cups per cf of your meals (which includes the tomato tone) and 3-4 cups per cf for the mineral mix (rock dusts, oyster shell flour, dolo lime, etc). If you're amending say 4 cf of base, I would use 12 cups of rock dusts, 3 cups of oyster shell flour, and 1 cup of dolo lime. Then add 1.5 cups of kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab shell meal, neem meal, and tomato tone. Wet that down with a compost tea and let 'er sit for a few weeks


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## Pattahabi (Aug 23, 2014)

I love the simplicity of organics. Time to spray them down with a little aloe water and leave them alone. It's amazing the plants grow in spite of all I do. 



NL Project from 303 Seeds


Black Widow - Mr.Nice


P-


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## This Hidden Creature (Aug 23, 2014)

They look happy & healthy.
Sure going organics is a peaceful way.

303 seeds project, waw!

I'm all reassured then with my 30 seedlings...


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## This Hidden Creature (Aug 24, 2014)

here's a test plant, in a 1L container.
I decided to let the trims, slightly cut for having shorter pieces of green matter, hoping it would recycle faster.
My first real ROLS step.

the plant is an Agent Orange and she looks like it's ok.

Fungus action:
     

What do you think ?

best


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## hyroot (Aug 24, 2014)

I was at the hydro shop and they had a bunch of different brands of "organic" pesticides / fungicides. All they are is enzymes (supposedly). I never take their advice. One guy there swears by using enzymes as a pesticide regardless of brand. Anyway any thoughts to using seed sprout teas and / or coconut water for ipm's?


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## Pattahabi (Aug 24, 2014)

^^^^ For sure SST's are going to contain chitinase. Now how much is needed to actually do something to the shell of a bug is another story. I also wonder what high dosages would do to the beneficial population? Would using SST water with spinosad really kick the crap out of bugs? Seems like layering small doses of things like this is the best way to keep the plant happy, and keep the pests away.

P-


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## hyroot (Aug 25, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> ^^^^ For sure SST's are going to contain chitinase. Now how much is needed to actually do something to the shell of a bug is another story. I also wonder what high dosages would do to the beneficial population? Would using SST water with spinosad really kick the crap out of bugs? Seems like layering small doses of things like this is the best way to keep the plant happy, and keep the pests away.
> 
> P-


those store bought spinosad sprays never worked for me. The enzyme bottles said on them, basically the enzymes eat away at the exoskeleton and disrupt the digestive process. With sst I use mung beans like headtreep does. I get them for $1 a pound. Unhulled barley seed is still hard to find.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 25, 2014)

hyroot said:


> those store bought spinosad sprays never worked for me. The enzyme bottles said on them, basically the enzymes eat away at the exoskeleton and disrupt the digestive process. With sst I use mung beans like headtreep does. I get them for $1 a pound. Unhulled barley seed is still hard to find.


I've used the monterrey brand spinosad to kick the hell out of thrips. The description of the enzymes sounds exactly what I would expect from chitinase. I'll have to see if I can't dig up some info on the dosages. Do you know the names of any of the products? That might be a start to figuring out exactly what is in them if possible. 

Do you have a natural grocers near you? I use wheat, corn, mung, alfalfa, sunflower, etc, etc.

P-


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Aug 26, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> Ok guys...Well I've researched and researched so much that my gf thinks I'm nutzzz for spending so much time on the weed forums, lmao....
> 
> Anyways, this is what I've come up with for a soil...Unsure of how much for each amendment though.
> 
> ...





st0wandgrow said:


> That's a good lookin list of ingredients right there. A safe bet for how much to use is apx 2 cups per cf of your meals (which includes the tomato tone) and 3-4 cups per cf for the mineral mix (rock dusts, oyster shell flour, dolo lime, etc). If you're amending say 4 cf of base, I would use 12 cups of rock dusts, 3 cups of oyster shell flour, and 1 cup of dolo lime. Then add 1.5 cups of kelp meal, alfalfa meal, crab shell meal, neem meal, and tomato tone. Wet that down with a compost tea and let 'er sit for a few weeks


I was told to leave out the alfalfa meal, and to feed with alfalfa meal when need be...

What do you guys think on this strategy ? And, I think I am going to replace the dolomite lime with gypsum...Is Empsoma Gypsum ok ?


----------



## reasonevangelist (Aug 26, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> I was told to leave out the alfalfa meal, and to feed with alfalfa meal when need be...
> 
> What do you guys think on this strategy ? And, I think I am going to replace the dolomite lime with gypsum...Is Empsoma Gypsum ok ?


Sounds good to me. ^^ 

I haven't seen anything negative about Espoma brand organics... i actually have access to some garden tone(? 3-4-4 ?), and was wondering whether i should just use it, or skip it and get my preferred ingredients/amendments (alf, kelp, castings, aloe/coco, seeds for sprout tea...).


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## Pattahabi (Aug 26, 2014)

@SpaaaceCowboy, If I'm not mistaken, the epsoma gypsum is pelletized. It could still work, but may take a fair while to be available to the plants. I have heard of people using coffee grinders to break it up more, but I have not tried this personally.

P-


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## cannakis (Aug 27, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Yo, Foreverfly, I have been thinking a lot lately about what the terpenes of hops would be like grown in ROLS. It's been forever and a day since I brewed any beer. Have you done any comparisons of hops grown different ways?
> 
> Many thanks!
> P-


i heard from a guy that he used to Graft cannabis onto a hops rhizome, he saide it makes Amazing bud! would be interesting to try.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Aug 27, 2014)

cannakis said:


> i heard from a guy that he used to Graft cannabis onto a hops rhizome, he saide it makes Amazing bud! would be interesting to try.


Think that might be impossible, ive seen one or two threads pop up on caannabis and grafting, all failed. 

Would be nice to see pics or how your friend did it.


----------



## cannakis (Aug 27, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Think that might be impossible, ive seen one or two threads pop up on caannabis and grafting, all failed.
> 
> Would be nice to see pics or how your friend did it.


yeah i know but that was decades ago no longer in the game


----------



## Mohican (Aug 27, 2014)

I had some bud back in the 80s that had great bag appeal and smell, but it had zero high. I think it was a hops cross.


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## Bueno Time (Aug 29, 2014)

Hey guys I have a question for people who recycle their mix.

I went with the ~2 cups amendments and ~4 cups mineral mix per cu ft of used FFOF and was wondering how much you would re-amend with after each run of say maybe 3 weeks veg and 10 weeks flower.

Would you add back like half the amount of each or more nutrient amendments and less mineral mix? 

In my head it seems like maybe the mineral mix would take longer to deplete than the nutrient amendments (kelp, neem/karanja, crustacean meal, etc which seem like they would be used up faster possibly. 

Also how much EWC do you add to the mix when you re-amend it again? Do you use a lot again like with the fresh mix or maybe half or so?


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## CannaBare (Aug 30, 2014)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/help-me-build-a-water-only-soil.786688/
From the very bottom of the last post by Rising Moon.

When I add my food and minerals back to the soil I like to mix it with the EWC and top dress with that. I use all I made, can't overdo EWC.

*Re-amend @
(1/8 cup, of each from the "food mix", and 1/2 cup glacial rock dust, or "mineral mix")*


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## Pattahabi (Aug 30, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/t/help-me-build-a-water-only-soil.786688/
> From the very bottom of the last post by Rising Moon.
> 
> When I add my food and minerals back to the soil I like to mix it with the EWC and top dress with that. I use all I made, can't overdo EWC.
> ...


Rising Moon knows his stuff. This is almost exactly what I just added to my reamend about 4 days ago.

P-


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## Pattahabi (Aug 30, 2014)

Making keif pucks today! 



I love my Piecemaker! 

P-


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## ColoradoGrowin (Aug 30, 2014)

cannakis said:


> holy shit! are you serious thats all you used to feed them?


Yeah man! I ended up with right around 70 grams off one plant and a 600w. The best tasting flower I've ever grown for sure. 

Edit

Knowing what I am using right now, what would you guys say I need most for next round?


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## hyroot (Aug 30, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Making keif pucks today!
> 
> View attachment 3242354
> 
> ...


nerd


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 30, 2014)

hyroot said:


> nerd


I love cannabis, what can I say?! 

Blood Orange just transplanted into a 20 gallon pot. Still needs a top dress. She's going to get a center spot in the upcoming run cause I love the smoke so much. Hats off to Bodhi.



Peace!
P-


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## hyroot (Aug 31, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I love cannabis, what can I say?!
> 
> Blood Orange just transplanted into a 20 gallon pot. Still needs a top dress. She's going to get a center spot in the upcoming run cause I love the smoke so much. Hats off to Bodhi.
> 
> ...


I used to do that with old school silver dollars or 50 cent pieces. Id love to grow some blood orange. But i dont order seeds. Bodhi doesn't go to cups or other mmj festivals.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 31, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I used to do that with old school silver dollars or 50 cent pieces. Id love to grow some blood orange. But i dont order seeds. Bodhi doesn't go to cups or other mmj festivals.


I was thinking his gear was available at some dispensaries in Cali, but I could be mistaken about that. In CO you can find some local breeders stuff at the dispensaries also. I think Swami is offered in WA. There are some choices around other then ordering.

And of course if you are going to be in CO, lmk and I'll get you a cut. 

P-


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## Ace Yonder (Aug 31, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I was thinking his gear was available at some dispensaries in Cali, but I could be mistaken about that. In CO you can find some local breeders stuff at the dispensaries also. I think Swami is offered in WA. There are some choices around other then ordering.
> 
> And of course if you are going to be in CO, lmk and I'll get you a cut.
> 
> P-


I can confirm that both Bodhi and Swami beans are available via dispensary in Cali (Bodhi more widely so, Swami only at one local dispensary)


----------



## Ace Yonder (Aug 31, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Think that might be impossible, ive seen one or two threads pop up on caannabis and grafting, all failed.
> 
> Would be nice to see pics or how your friend did it.


I would love for this video to be legit... more than anything I would


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Sep 3, 2014)

Does anyone know if you can topdress with green sand ? Or is that something that takes a while to break down, and has to cook for a bit ?


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## Pattahabi (Sep 3, 2014)

Greensand takes a long time to break down.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 3, 2014)

I think sunflower seeds have become one of my new favorite seeds for SST's. If nothing else, I love the texture the pureed shells bring to my worm bin! Not to mention difficulty of sprouting, speed, price, efficacy. Thumbs up imo!



P-


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 3, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I think sunflower seeds have become one of my new favorite seeds for SST's. If nothing else, I love the texture the pureed shells bring to my worm bin! Not to mention difficulty of sprouting, speed, price, efficacy. Thumbs up imo!
> 
> 
> 
> P-


How much do you pay for sunflower seeds? Link?


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## hyroot (Sep 3, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I think sunflower seeds have become one of my new favorite seeds for SST's. If nothing else, I love the texture the pureed shells bring to my worm bin! Not to mention difficulty of sprouting, speed, price, efficacy. Thumbs up imo!
> 
> 
> 
> P-


I wish I read this earlier. I picked up more mung beans. the price has gone up. $2.99 a pound. I saw whole raw sun flower seeds for $1.29 a pound.


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## Mohican (Sep 3, 2014)

Here is the revegged Jesus OG in the compost spot:




Cheers,
Mo


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## Pattahabi (Sep 4, 2014)

^^^^^ Looking Great Mo!! ^^^^^^



foreverflyhi said:


> How much do you pay for sunflower seeds? Link?


I've gotten the last few bags at Natural Grocers. I want to say I paid like $1.99 for 2lbs? I need to double check that.



hyroot said:


> I wish I read this earlier. I picked up more mung beans. the price has gone up. $2.99 a pound. I saw whole raw sun flower seeds for $1.29 a pound.


Mung beans are super easy to sprout, and at least were super cheap. I also have a bag of those in the pantry. However, they tend to turn into a mess after the blender imo.

P-


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## hyroot (Sep 4, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> ^^^^^ Looking Great Mo!! ^^^^^^
> 
> 
> I've gotten the last few bags at Natural Grocers. I want to say I paid like $1.99 for 2lbs? I need to double check that.
> ...


after the blender I pour all of it. Headtreep does the same.


----------



## reasonevangelist (Sep 4, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Greensand takes a long time to break down.


What if you call it "mulch" instead of "top dress?"


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2014)

So I got this super sweet mug from Attitude:



Too bad it was wrapped in green tape. 

P-


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## reasonevangelist (Sep 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> So I got this super sweet mug from Attitude:
> 
> View attachment 3247178
> 
> ...


Ouch... 

I wonder when the bean banks will start taking inspiration from that cheech and chong movie, and start integrating the beans _into_ other items... (actually, now that i think of it, some are probably already using similar strategies...)


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> Ouch...
> 
> I wonder when the bean banks will start taking inspiration from that cheech and chong movie, and start integrating the beans _into_ other items... (actually, now that i think of it, some are probably already using similar strategies...)


Hands down, the Tude is the worse at packaging. With that said, this is the first time I've had any bean order seized, and I've placed 11 orders with the Tude alone. I always get the guarantee, so we'll see how this one goes.

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hands down, the Tude is the worse at packaging. With that said, this is the first time I've had any bean order seized, and I've placed 11 orders with the Tude alone. I always get the guarantee, so we'll see how this one goes.
> 
> P-


Sucks, this happened to me recently


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## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Sucks, this happened to me recently


Hey FFH! Was your order with the Tude? Did they get you out new ones? Even though the site says they are closed, I already received an email back from them asking for pictures of the packing and letter. I hope this is pretty painless. Still a little torked cause I was going to drop some of the seeds right away for the next round.

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey FFH! Was your order with the Tude? Did they get you out new ones? Even though the site says they are closed, I already received an email back from them asking for pictures of the packing and letter. I hope this is pretty painless. Still a little torked cause I was going to drop some of the seeds right away for the next round.
> 
> P-


yea my order was from the tude lol, I ordered guarantee stealth shipping with over 200$ worth of seeds, 2 months later I received a beat up package with green tape and a skunk t shirt. I cancelled my order, got my money back, kept the shirt no questions asked. it really fucked my year up because I was planning on staying away and not be soo reliant on clones, oh well, I am looking into seeds now tho, has any one every ordered from seedsman?

http://www.seedsman.com/en/critical-kush-feminised-seeds
best price I can find for 10 critical kush seeds. plus free og seeds. seems legit, what yall think?


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> yea my order was from the tude lol, I ordered guarantee stealth shipping with over 200$ worth of seeds, 2 months later I received a beat up package with green tape and a skunk t shirt. I cancelled my order, got my money back, kept the shirt no questions asked. it really fucked my year up because I was planning on staying away and not be soo reliant on clones, oh well, I am looking into seeds now tho, has any one every ordered from seedsman?
> 
> http://www.seedsman.com/en/critical-kush-feminised-seeds
> best price I can find for 10 critical kush seeds. plus free og seeds. seems legit, what yall think?


Shit, I might just cancel my order then if they give me that option. Only reason I ordered from them is they have bodhi's nl#5 instock, and everyone else was out. Of course as as soon as I ordered everyone else got theirs in stock. 

I have ordered from seedsman with zero problems. They do not guarantee their order from what I hear. A friend ordered their stealth book opinion, and let's say it's pretty damn good. 

P-


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## reasonevangelist (Sep 5, 2014)

So hey... what would happen if i soaked/sprouted "cover crop blend," and then instead of pureeing them (no blender), just dump the whole thing into the soil? (not sure if those need an initial rinse...) Or would it be better to select specific seeds and strategically place them? Part of me wants to just artfully sling a handful across the pot, and let them do whatever they do... lol. 



foreverflyhi said:


> yea my order was from the tude lol, I ordered guarantee stealth shipping with over 200$ worth of seeds, 2 months later I received a beat up package with green tape and a skunk t shirt. I cancelled my order, got my money back, kept the shirt no questions asked. it really fucked my year up because I was planning on staying away and not be soo reliant on clones, oh well, I am looking into seeds now tho, has any one every ordered from seedsman?
> 
> http://www.seedsman.com/en/critical-kush-feminised-seeds
> best price I can find for 10 critical kush seeds. plus free og seeds. seems legit, what yall think?


I had planned/attempted to order from ossc, but hit the "international purchase" problem, and then got dicked around... and then some beans of unknown origin somehow found their way into some soil... eh heh... so that whole shopping hassle is on the backest back-burner for me now. 

I browsed seedsman pretty hard for a little while at one point, but i wasn't about to order a snuggie for stealth purposes. Seems like most of their appealing stealth options are/were always out of stock when i looked. Beyond that... no idea! Seems like good prices on most stuff, and i like how their site allows useful sorting (unlike herbies), and functions very well (at least for me).


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> So hey... what would happen if i soaked/sprouted "cover crop blend," and then instead of pureeing them (no blender), just dump the whole thing into the soil? (not sure if those need an initial rinse...) Or would it be better to select specific seeds and strategically place them? Part of me wants to just artfully sling a handful across the pot, and let them do whatever they do... lol


This would be a cover crop instead of an seed sprout tea. Both are beneficial, and give different benefits.

P-


----------



## reasonevangelist (Sep 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> This would be a cover crop instead of an seed sprout tea. Both are beneficial, and give different benefits.
> 
> P-


Reason i ask is that i read somewhere, someone using the SST technique with the cover crop blend. Basically, they sprouted the cover crop (probably pureed it too) and used that as a seed sprout tea (for the enzyme boost). So, my question is: can i get that enzyme boost, without pureeing the sprouted seeds, and also use those sprouted seeds to become cover crop? (i'm guessing the cover crop blend might not be as... enzymatic, as something like buckwheat or barley, but maybe close?)


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> Reason i ask is that i read somewhere, someone using the SST technique with the cover crop blend. Basically, they sprouted the cover crop (probably pureed it too) and used that as a seed sprout tea (for the enzyme boost). So, my question is: can i get that enzyme boost, without pureeing the sprouted seeds, and also use those sprouted seeds to become cover crop? (i'm guessing the cover crop blend might not be as... enzymatic, as something like buckwheat or barley, but maybe close?)


All seeds work. I'm not sure there is any research on exact enzyme levels for this application. I have soaked the seeds, rinse, put them in a 5 gallon bucket with airstones and let them srpout. Then you can use that water for your tea. Not as potent imo, but it doesn't destroy the sprouts and you would be free to plant them if you like. Really though, you only need to plant a cover crop once, and you can apply SST's weekly. Personally I buy things like sunflower seeds for like $1 a pound, puree them, and throw the leftovers in the worm bin. 

Edit: and you always soak first and discard the initial soak water. This has root _inhibiting_ hormones from the outer shell. After the initial rinse it's fine.

P-


----------



## foreverflyhi (Sep 5, 2014)

YO check out this promo from seedsman.I found two different strains for 114$ plus with freebies and this promotion, seriously cant beat it!

"Now, when you Spend £85 or more on any regular seeds, you will receive 4 packs of regular seeds absolutely free! *That is 17 seeds added to your order!*
In this amazing offer, your free seeds will be: 5 Goji OG by Bodhi Seeds, 5 Space Candy by TGA Subcool, 5 Old Time Moonshine by Mosca Seeds and 2 Loud Sour by Loud Seeds.
Available on online orders only, while stocks last."


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I have ordered from seedsman with zero problems. They do not guarantee their order from what I hear. A friend ordered their stealth book opinion, and let's say it's pretty damn good.
> 
> P-


Seedsman does offer guarantee. I had an ordered from them intercepted by customs recently, and they honored the guarantee with no hassle. In fact they even threw in a few extra freebies for the trouble.


----------



## SpaaaceCowboy (Sep 5, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Seedsman does offer guarantee. I had an ordered from them intercepted by customs recently, and they honored the guarantee with no hassle. In fact they even threw in a few extra freebies for the trouble.


Thanks for posting...I was thinking of ordering from them but then I didnt want to after I heard there was no guarantee.


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Seedsman does offer guarantee. I had an ordered from them intercepted by customs recently, and they honored the guarantee with no hassle. In fact they even threw in a few extra freebies for the trouble.


You are correct, found this:



> _Purchase one of our *Guaranteed Delivery* products with your seeds order and we'll resend your order free of charge if it goes missing, until you receive it. To maximise the chance of your order getting through to you successfully, we also recommend adding the option of *removing the seeds from Original Breeder packaging*.
> 
> *Guaranteed Delivery products and taking seeds out of original packets is strongly recommended when ordering from the Southern Hemisphere or Americas and other rest of the world destinations*. _


I was totally thinking of Cannazon who I have also had zero problems with in spite of this:



> _*ALL ORDERS ARE SENT OUT UNDER THE FOLLOWING UNDERSTANDING:*Once we have packed your items, handed your package over to the postal service and passed you your tracking number that is our part done. The final stage of delivery is totally out of our control, should your TRACKED package not arrive unfortunately we can not offer you a replacement but we will send you a good will gesture by regular mail. Unfortunately we can not offer this same guarentee to any items sent by regular mail._


_
P-_


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## Pattahabi (Sep 6, 2014)

I already have a tracking number for the reshipment from the Tude. That's pretty damn quick and painless imo.

P-


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## Pattahabi (Sep 8, 2014)




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## DonTesla (Sep 9, 2014)

DANKSWAG said:


> Looking good. Grown in recycled soil that I amended and cooked nothing added but water to achieve this at 37 days into flower. Yes I used a PH meter to make sure the cooking of this soil was complete before using. Unfortunately I am not in a space where I can fully implement ROLS, so I am mix, cook, use, recycle, amend, cook, use etc... for me ROLS is for larger containers, I use 2 gallon cloth containers. I would have to build a custom square pot using all the space and line with cloth to attempt a ROLS grow in such a confined space. It would be hard to move around established plants to reach in the back with such a set up. Having smaller containers I can pull them out of the space and attend to their care easier when pruning harvesting and such. Therefore I can't say I really comment on utilizing ROLS over traditional mix and cook for next cycle. I believe ROLS really needs larger containers 25 gallons or so to provide that buffering (microlife population) by the soil to keep the PH balanced when organic nutrients are added. Whereas you may get away with putting hot compost material into it and it won't throw of the PH significantly and if it does it is such a short duration that no real effect noticed. But try something like that in a 2 to 10 Gallon container, your gonna have to flush you soil as I once had to do with MY SHARONA when her soil PH went down. Anywise I am all on board with being frugal and hope someday I will have space to implement ROLS in a larger container where the biosphere can be viable on such a scale to absorb input readily.
> View attachment 3150563
> DankSwag


37 Days in, thats gnarly.. is that a 40"x40" tent? what kind of lighting are you rocking, dude??


----------



## DonPetro (Sep 9, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> 37 Days in, thats gnarly.. is that a 40"x40" tent? what kind of lighting are you rocking, dude??


 What?! No update on the Dons' garden?


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## DonTesla (Sep 9, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> What?! No update on the Dons' garden?


.. this is the Dons 2.0 super (natural) soil in 5 gallon pails.. amended to be a little less hot, but no less nutritional, with 400w led lighting, and without leaf mould, bio char, gypsum, and a couple other things that may be added next time around. All i gotta say is BIG UP YA'SELF, bro. organics is bad ass. Mother nature, a boss. The sheen, just beautiful.. we getting dialled in, more and more, no doubt. especially happy is the chernobyl bubba kush (pic next_from other device) 


**note: these plants survived a ten day vacation and some hot temps in the heart of summer, and also received no alfalfa while i was away, which would have reduced the nodal spacing a bit, plus i would have kept them out of the 27*C range which they were hitting almost daily for a good few hours. looking forward to round 3, especially, which will feature 7 gallon pails, and a 30 gallon tub with the third batch of soil, cooking now


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## DonTesla (Sep 9, 2014)

From above, and then below.


More of Her under carriage...39 days in, she has about 3.5 weeks left to hit her 9 week mark


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## DonPetro (Sep 10, 2014)

^^^That first pic...damn.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 10, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> All seeds work. I'm not sure there is any research on exact enzyme levels for this application. I have soaked the seeds, rinse, put them in a 5 gallon bucket with airstones and let them srpout. Then you can use that water for your tea. Not as potent imo, but it doesn't destroy the sprouts and you would be free to plant them if you like. Really though, you only need to plant a cover crop once, and you can apply SST's weekly. Personally I buy things like sunflower seeds for like $1 a pound, puree them, and throw the leftovers in the worm bin.
> 
> Edit: and you always soak first and discard the initial soak water. This has root _inhibiting_ hormones from the outer shell. After the initial rinse it's fine.
> 
> P-


 Damn pattahabi, you have some good knowledge, I didn't know that about the initial soak for the seeds... How long should I soak them to begin with?


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## DonTesla (Sep 10, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> ^^^That first pic...damn.


What a difference hey bro!? compared to the fading girl in the corner in the barely amended mix (fresh castings and a 2.0 top dress holding her together..what kind of feeding are you thinking would be okay.. I've read the organic feeding forum im just skeptical of feeding in the last month, lol).. I want the cleanest herb possible, but I know she's not as well fed as her sister with sheen.. they are slated for 23 more days before their 9 weeks is up, as of today


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## DonPetro (Sep 10, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> What a difference hey bro!? compared to the fading girl in the corner in the barely amended mix (fresh castings and a 2.0 top dress holding her together..what kind of feeding are you thinking would be okay.. I've read the organic feeding forum im just skeptical of feeding in the last month, lol).. I want the cleanest herb possible, but I know she's not as well fed as her sister with sheen.. they are slated for 23 more days before their 9 weeks is up, as of today


I would just do a mellow EWC/molasses brew. That will give her a quick boost and won't affect the final product.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 10, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Damn pattahabi, you have some good knowledge, I didn't know that about the initial soak for the seeds... How long should I soak them to begin with?


Thanks Grease! I usually soak for a couple of hours, drain the soak water, rinse the seeds, refill with clean water. I soak a total of 12-24 hours. after which, previously I put them in a damp organic cotton tee shirt, but it got to be a pain, so now I'm using a seed sprouting cup. Let the tap root get about as long as the seed, blend strain, and water!

This also has a great effect on trich production the last couple of weeks of flower imo. 

Peace!
P-


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## Relative247 (Sep 10, 2014)

Thanks everyone for their participation in this thread! Finally made my way through it.

Here's what I came up with, does this seem okay?

1/3 Peat
1/3 Lava Rock (crushed)
1/3 Earthworm Castings and Malibu's Compost

Per Cubic Foot:

3 Cups Activated BioChar 
(50 cups aerated in a 5 gallon bucket with a cup of Alfalfa, a cup of Fish Meal, a handful of peat and handful of EWC)

4 Cups Basalt
1 Cup Bentonite
1 Cup oystershell
1/2 cup neem meal
1/2 cup crab shell
1/2 cup kelp
1/2 cup Alfalfa meal
1/2 cup Gypsum
1 cup fish meal

making 18 cubic feet of soil

Does this seem like a good ratio?


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## Pattahabi (Sep 10, 2014)

Relative247 said:


> Thanks everyone for their participation in this thread! Finally made my way through it.
> 
> Here's what I came up with, does this seem okay?
> 
> ...


Looks awesome to me! You might cut the basalt by a cup, but I think you'll be fine either way.

Great job!
P-


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## joespit (Sep 11, 2014)

ColoradoGrowin said:


> This is my first attempt at a Los. following a recipe from the beginning of this thread. I only gave her coconut water and molasses. This was the easiest grow I've ever done and I'm pretty happy with the results! Ill be chopping within the next week and can't wait to see how she smokes!
> 
> Thanks for the help everyone!
> 
> Happy growing.


 How is growing EWC indoors?


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## Pattahabi (Sep 11, 2014)

The red is coming...

P-


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## Pattahabi (Sep 17, 2014)

P-


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## charpeasy420 (Sep 18, 2014)

Hello all your knowledge is amazing once I found this thread I couldn't stop reading it all the knowledge is a bit overwhelming but the best organic thread ever but I do have one question I am allergic to crab and shrimp so I was looking for an alternative for chittin


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 18, 2014)

charpeasy420 said:


> Hello all your knowledge is amazing once I found this thread I couldn't stop reading it all the knowledge is a bit overwhelming but the best organic thread ever but I do have one question I am allergic to crab and shrimp so I was looking for an alternative for chittin


I am too! Fish will kill me! My advise to you, eh,, dont eat it??? Lol
Wear gloves, cover up with a mask, long sleeves,, take extra precautions, but im sure theres alternatives ; not sure of any


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## charpeasy420 (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks for the reply i just assumed that cannabis grow with an amentment that i am allergic to wouldn't be somethingi would wwanna smoke lol and I know this is super late but to cann and his comment about Phelan ha I lived there almost all my childhood life that place is flooded with weed so bad even the local cops grow hahah but it is a tweaker I fested hell hole so the armpit of cali would be a factual statement lol


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## Pattahabi (Sep 18, 2014)

charpeasy420 said:


> Hello all your knowledge is amazing once I found this thread I couldn't stop reading it all the knowledge is a bit overwhelming but the best organic thread ever but I do have one question I am allergic to crab and shrimp so I was looking for an alternative for chittin


From Wiki:

*Chitin* (C8H13O5N)n (/ˈkaɪtɨn/ _*KY*-tin_) is a long-chain polymer of a _N_-acetylglucosamine, a derivative of glucose, and is found in many places throughout the natural world. *It is the main component of the cell walls of fungi, the exoskeletons of arthropods such as crustaceans (e.g., crabs, lobsters and shrimps) and insects, the radulae of molluscs, and the beaks and internal shells of cephalopods, including squid and octopuses.* The structure of chitin is comparable to the polysaccharide cellulose, forming crystalline nanofibrils or whiskers. In terms of function, it may be compared to the protein keratin. Chitin has also proven useful for several medical and industrial purposes. In butterfly wing scales, chitin is often organized into stacks of nano-layers or nano-sticks made of chitin nanocrystals that produce various iridescent colors by thin-film interference: similar, analogous structures made of keratin are found in iridescent bird plumage.[1]

*Full Text*

So you might be able to try one of these alternatives if you can't have any kind of crustaceans!

Peace!
P-


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## charpeasy420 (Sep 18, 2014)

Thanks guys for the quick responses and I love how this thread is still alive and kickin much props to all you pros


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## hyroot (Sep 18, 2014)

http://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-7.pdf


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## reasonevangelist (Sep 18, 2014)

So, i answered my own question by just trying it (and it was actually BAS guy who said he's using his own cover crop blend for SST): Yes, the BAS cover crop blend works for SST, AND, without blending the seeds, you can still use the seeds for living mulch (which i'm sure is probably significantly less effective for SST, but "two birds, one stone" if you haven't yet applied your living mulch...). So, living mulch applied as SST (yes, i did a soak-rinse first, then another, then a full soak, then applied the contents at once; a day later, i feel like i need to mow my lawn... lol). Then botanical teas (aloe, coco water, alf, kelp, castings, soaked for ~24 with occasional shake mixing and air-changing), then BOOM... had been struggling w/ some brown splotches (either soil def, or SFW malfunction, or... almost certainly light poisoning from lamps too close, causing both bleaching and heat stress... combined with slight overwatering, caused swollen cells which overheated and ruptured their walls, destroying them... which apparently looks like various deficiencies...), but i backed the lamp off a bit, and now they're Dark green. I think they look quite healthy. One in the middle (first to pop, stalk almost-if-not-already as thick as a thumb) has giant "fan" leaves significantly larger than my hand (at the bottom... not much light down there, they'll probably fall off...), but just over 1 ft tall. Topped it the other day, despite its "short/squat/wide" characteristics. Noticed a couple strange small holes (literally 2 on top growth, couple mm wide)... perhaps a pest (which i still haven't seen), or perhaps a water droplet worked like a magnifying glass burning ants in the sun? (have been "misting" the leaves because it's hot in there...) So far, no visual on actual pest presence, minus those strange holes. There are no flying things that i can see, no foreigners attached under leaves... and i do have springtails (read they're beneficial)... and i did catch what looked like one normal house fly in the tent (and it really did not want to leave, so despite my attempts to simply and harmlessly scoop it out, i ended up having to flick it hard enough to kill it). I saw a... beetle looking thing, and a little spider of some kind (at least half a cm leg span, probably like 6-8mm). I've read that fast-movers are typically predators, usually not pests, and likely beneficial... but idk. All the gnats i've ever seen are kinda "fast." 

'Bout a month above ground, *flip.* I didn't have the urge to check them every 10 minutes before, but after changing the timer, it hit me like a falling anvil lol. Even after a mere 8-9h dark period, i'm pretty sure i see some hairs and tiny sacs (and what has been the prettiest of the bunch so far, might be male... can't quite tell yet; tiny indicators and my eyes ain't what they used to be, and my phone cam is old and sucks, so no help there). I kinda want to just sit and stare at them for hours. I'm overly excited about these mysterious genetics. They're probably (maybe) all different... but they have a pretty unique smell so far: very... sweet and musky, i guess. "Dank" would be an appropriate term here, lol, but we'll see. It's a very... earthy, musky, sweet, sharp... maybe a bit of "caramel" perhaps. Maybe slightly "sour." It's difficult to describe, and there's probably different aromas emanating from each, and they're just mixing into this amalgamation aroma. Whatever it is, i like it. Maybe i'll eventually post pics... but... well... you know. 

I've learned SO MUCH in these last few months, but this last month especially. I already know what (and how/why) i want to do differently next time (not that anything is particularly "wrong," per se, but optimizations can and should occur). I wish i had dropped fewer and mainlined as early as possible, when they were still making super tight nodes, due to being small enough to share the PAR overlap area. I kept the lamp too close for too long, over watered, then had to not water, distance the lamp and give them time to recover, which resulted in longer nodes. At least i learned (and can exploit it next time). 

Meanwhile, i have a yard full/filling with leaves to rake... and i need to build a worm bin. ^^ (and some jars and a hygrometer would be a good idea...)


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## Pattahabi (Sep 20, 2014)

Don't let your top soil dry out... get mulch.

P-


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## SpaaaceCowboy (Sep 20, 2014)

Patt...is it OK using mulch from a big bag store ? Do, you have to be concerned about bugs ?

Also, what about rubber mulch ? I bought, and I am using this stuff on an outdoor grow right now..It's nice in the fact that you can keep using it over and over....You think this would be ok to use after my outdoor grow is done ? Or is there actual beneficial stuff in real mulch ?


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## Pattahabi (Sep 21, 2014)

SpaaaceCowboy said:


> Patt...is it OK using mulch from a big bag store ? Do, you have to be concerned about bugs ?
> 
> Also, what about rubber mulch ? I bought, and I am using this stuff on an outdoor grow right now..It's nice in the fact that you can keep using it over and over....You think this would be ok to use after my outdoor grow is done ? Or is there actual beneficial stuff in real mulch ?


I wouldn't use mulch from a big box store unless I had no other option. Can you go outside and forage? Use your old canna leaves, etc? Then I also have a little white clover growing in mine atm. I don't worry about bringing in bugs on dead leaves and branches. The way I look at it, if they are something to worry about, they will be eating living plants, not hanging out in the dead stuff. 

My 2¢
P-


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## hyroot (Sep 21, 2014)

if you want to buy mulch. Then get wood chip mulch from home depot.


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## DonPetro (Sep 22, 2014)

Shredded bark works great. Just make sure it hasnt been dyed.


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## DonPetro (Sep 22, 2014)

@Pattahabi i thought that may be white clover. I was thinking of getting some for the veggie garden in the spring. What benefits have you seen from using a living mulch?


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## Pattahabi (Sep 22, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> @Pattahabi i thought that may be white clover. I was thinking of getting some for the veggie garden in the spring. What benefits have you seen from using a living mulch?


Hey Donp! Lots of benefits from a live mulch; aeration, added N, helps with watering/run off, adds organic matter, helps control pests and disease, increases microorganisms, helps build VAM and other beneficial root fungi populations, etc.

Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 22, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> From Wiki:
> 
> *Chitin* (C8H13O5N)n (/ˈkaɪtɨn/ _*KY*-tin_) is a long-chain polymer of a _N_-acetylglucosamine, a derivative of glucose, and is found in many places throughout the natural world. *It is the main component of the cell walls of fungi, the exoskeletons of arthropods such as crustaceans (e.g., crabs, lobsters and shrimps) and insects, the radulae of molluscs, and the beaks and internal shells of cephalopods, including squid and octopuses.* The structure of chitin is comparable to the polysaccharide cellulose, forming crystalline nanofibrils or whiskers. In terms of function, it may be compared to the protein keratin. Chitin has also proven useful for several medical and industrial purposes. In butterfly wing scales, chitin is often organized into stacks of nano-layers or nano-sticks made of chitin nanocrystals that produce various iridescent colors by thin-film interference: similar, analogous structures made of keratin are found in iridescent bird plumage.[1]
> 
> ...


I wonder if cricket castings would have significant chitin in it? They are insects, and it's not all cricket manure, there are bits of dead crickets in there too
cricket frass, I think they call it? something like that?


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## hyroot (Sep 22, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I wonder if cricket castings would have significant chitin in it? They are insects, and it's not all cricket manure, there are bits of dead crickets in there too
> cricket frass, I think they call it? something like that?


I had a bin with a few dead crickets when it got too wet in there. I didn't have any issues when using that batch of vc. They break down pretty quick probably. Just make sure there's no crickets in the garden. They will chew on the stems and leaves.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 22, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I wonder if cricket castings would have significant chitin in it? They are insects, and it's not all cricket manure, there are bits of dead crickets in there too
> cricket frass, I think they call it? something like that?


Insect frass I believe they call it. It's possible, but I don't know for sure. It would be a small amount for sure. I use crab meal. 

P-


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## DonPetro (Sep 23, 2014)

Insect frass is the tits!


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## a senile fungus (Sep 23, 2014)

How do cocoa bean shells instead of rice hulls or perlite sound?


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 23, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Insect frass is the tits!


 I agree, I only have just recently started using it, but I like the consistency of it, and the plants seem to like it, but its hard to tell, the plants look good anyways, but in my HEAD the insect frass is helping, that's all that counts, sometimes I wonder if I need all the different amendments and should keep it more simple, but I like variety, and seems to me, more variety in organic amendments, would be less likely to have deficiencies. Same theory for my vermicomposting, and also my vitamins and diet. Seems to make sense, right?


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## smokey the cat (Sep 24, 2014)

Question thread -

I have yet to find a source for rock dust. The local quarries are no help, and no garden places have it in my country.


Thinking about taking my huge mortar & pestle and powdering some pumice. It's a volcanic rock with air holes and it's pretty soft - so I'll just powderise it. Don't have a huge grow, so should be able to handle the amounts I'll need.

Does this seem like a solution to you?


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## cannakis (Sep 24, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Question thread -
> 
> I have yet to find a source for rock dust. The local quarries are no help, and no garden places have it in my country.
> 
> ...


you can get land plaster? agricultural gypsum.? thats what i used and just got some blue granite at the rock and mulcg place and it had Lots of dust on it. and what about lime? why dont you just add the pumice instead of crushing it, it will degrade over time and you get more airation.


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## cannakis (Sep 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> View attachment 3258104
> 
> Don't let your top soil dry out... get mulch.
> 
> P-


that is crazy! beautiful! i love that.! so do you keep that green growing or do you till it in? so do i Really need to mulch and or cover crop my plants?!


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## Pattahabi (Sep 24, 2014)

cannakis said:


> that is crazy! beautiful! i love that.! so do you keep that green growing or do you till it in? so do i Really need to mulch and or cover crop my plants?!


The clover will die out (and is currently doing so) when the canopy becomes too tight and not enough light gets down there. I let it die on the top, my philosophy is you don't want to disturb the soil by tilling. 

And imo, yes, you absolutely need some kind of mulch on the top of your soil. This can be dead canna leaves, sticks, straw, etc. You do not want the top few inches of soil drying out. 

P-


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## Biochar (Sep 24, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Question thread -
> 
> I have yet to find a source for rock dust. The local quarries are no help, and no garden places have it in my country.
> 
> ...


May be able to help. let me know......


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Question thread -
> 
> I have yet to find a source for rock dust. The local quarries are no help, and no garden places have it in my country.
> 
> ...




http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/product-category/bulk-soil-amendments/page/2


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 24, 2014)

hyroot said:


> http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/product-category/bulk-soil-amendments/page/2


Nice prices!!!

How about a website for botanicals, alioe and coco powder?

I tried buildasoil and not bad service but little pricey..


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## Pattahabi (Sep 24, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Nice prices!!!
> 
> How about a website for botanicals, aloe and coco powder?
> 
> I tried buildasoil and not bad service but little pricey..


This aloe price is a lot better deal then BAS, and is who I use:
http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Aloe_Vera_Extract_200x_Organic_Puraloe/111

Botanical company: https://www.mountainroseherbs.com/
Another: http://www.libertynatural.com/

Coconut water powder: http://www.znaturalfoods.com/Coconut-Water-Powder-Organic-Freeze-Dried
I also use navitas often: http://www.amazon.com/Navitas-Naturals-Coconut-5-8-Ounce-Pouches/dp/B009AS4DEW/ref=sr_1_1?s=grocery&ie=UTF8&qid=1370539133&sr=1-1 

Lmk if anything else Fly!
P-


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

i fileted a 3 foot long leaf and my blender was broken. I remembered I have a magic bullet blender in the cupboard. That thing is awesome for pureeing aloe filets.

fyi hulled barley seed pureed into flour for cooking does not work very well as flour


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> The clover will die out (and is currently doing so) when the canopy becomes too tight and not enough light gets down there. I let it die on the top, my philosophy is you don't want to disturb the soil by tilling.
> 
> And imo, yes, you absolutely need some kind of mulch on the top of your soil. This can be dead canna leaves, sticks, straw, etc. You do not want the top few inches of soil drying out.
> 
> P-


 I've been using moistened cardboard strips, just like you would use for your wormbin, and it works really great at keeping the topsoil moist, the roots will literally attach themselves to the cardboard, so much so, that I've been toying around with the idea of rolling the cardboard in a lil mychorrizae first, just to see what happens, they are already all fuzzy-white with roots, so I imagine it'll be even better, couldn't hurt, and I think I have a small infatuation with mychorrizae


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## Pattahabi (Sep 24, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I've been using moistened cardboard strips, just like you would use for your wormbin, and it works really great at keeping the topsoil moist, the roots will literally attach themselves to the cardboard, so much so, that I've been toying around with the idea of rolling the cardboard in a lil mychorrizae first, just to see what happens, they are already all fuzzy-white with roots, so I imagine it'll be even better, couldn't hurt, and I think I have a small infatuation with mychorrizae


Personally, I stay away from cardboard use in my worm bin or my pots, but that's just me.

P-


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

^^^^^^ me too. takes too long to break down


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Personally, I stay away from cardboard use in my worm bin or my pots, but that's just me.
> 
> P-


 I get a whole lot of cardboard from my shop, so I soak them for 24 hrs first, and then i let em have it.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2014)

hyroot said:


> ^^^^^^ me too. takes too long to break down


 maybe my worms are weird, they really go to town on the cardboard, they like it MUCH more than the leaves/compost


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> maybe my worms are weird, they really go to town on the cardboard, they like it MUCH more than the leaves/compost


mine don't but there plenty of other food in there. I make bedding out of peat moss, leaves and coco. Newspaper and cardboard always takes at least 3 - 4 months to break down in my bins. I shred it too.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2014)

hyroot said:


> mine don't but there plenty of other food in there. I make bedding out of peat moss, leaves and coco. Newspaper and cardboard always takes at least 3 - 4 months to break down in my bins. I shred it too.


damn!, my cardboard is pretty much castings in about 15-20 days, and they have other food in there too... Hmm wondering if I simply have more worms in my bin, maybe that's why?
who knows
I'd figure a compost of newspaper and cardboard would degrade almost by them selves in that amount of time, much less with the worms eating it.
Strange


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> damn!, my cardboard is pretty much castings in about 15-20 days, and they have other food in there too... Hmm wondering if I simply have more worms in my bin, maybe that's why?
> who knows



probably. I have added a 1000 worms 3 times. Soon I'm going to start more bins. Mine don't really grub on the egg shells either and I pulverize them. They go through veggie scraps, sst left overs and coffee grinds in a day.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2014)

hyroot said:


> probably. I have added a 1000 worms 3 times. Soon I'm going to start more bins. Mine don't really grub on the egg shells either and I pulverize them. They go through veggie scraps, sst left overs and coffee grinds in a day.


also depends on the bin, I guess. I have mine in a big smart-pot, and mine don't eat the eggshells either, but from what I've gathered they aren't supposed to, just use them to digest. My worms like the cardboard much more than the coffee grinds, overall, rotting fruit takes the cake for the most desired food for the worms, judging on the mass of writhing worms that encompass the fruits. Weird how they really seem to have preferences. From what you say, i'd say you may have more worms than I do, hard to tell though, I got a BUNCH from my brothers bin, plus I bought some "fishing" red worms from the store, only because they were redworms and they were HUGE, anyways, I got two tubs of them, about four months ago, and now there is a definite difference between the two redworms, the ones I got from my brother and Unclejims, are tiny compared to the fishing ones, maybe its a sub species or something. They are still redworms, but like four times the size of the "normal" little guys. They eat like a mofo though..
I know there are two types of redworms... but thought they were similar sizes


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> also depends on the bin, I guess. I have mine in a big smart-pot, and mine don't eat the eggshells either, but from what I've gathered they aren't supposed to, just use them to digest. My worms like the cardboard much more than the coffee grinds, overall, rotting fruit takes the cake for the most desired food for the worms, judging on the mass of writhing worms that encompass the fruits. Weird how they really seem to have preferences. From what you say, i'd say you may have more worms than I do, hard to tell though, I got a BUNCH from my brothers bin, plus I bought some "fishing" red worms from the store, only because they were redworms and they were HUGE, anyways, I got two tubs of them, about four months ago, and now there is a definite difference between the two redworms, the ones I got from my brother and Unclejims, are tiny compared to the fishing ones, maybe its a sub species or something. They are still redworms, but like four times the size of the "normal" little guys. They eat like a mofo though..
> I know there are two types of redworms... but thought they were similar sizes



i think those other are night crawlers. They work good too from what I've heard. Mine came from the hydro shop locally. I think they got it from Uncle Jims. Its the same packaging. It was $6 cheaper to get them locally because of shipping. I paid $24 for a 1000. It would of been $30 from Uncle Jims. I think the night crawlers hang out towards the bottom of the bin and the red wigglers are closer to the surface. 6 -12 inches of vc isn't that deep compared to those $5000 bins


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## Mohican (Sep 24, 2014)

Careful grinding up pumice or lava rock. The dust will become concrete when it gets wet. I tried this once and it even smelled like concrete! I had to transplant it because the water would just sit on top of the soil and never drain.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 24, 2014)

nah


hyroot said:


> i think those other are night crawlers. They work good too from what I've heard. Mine came from the hydro shop locally. I think they got it from Uncle Jims. Its the same packaging. It was $6 cheaper to get them locally because of shipping. I paid $24 for a 1000. It would of been $30 from Uncle Jims. I think the night crawlers hang out towards the bottom of the bin and the red wigglers are closer to the surface. 6 -12 inches of vc isn't that deep compared to those $5000 bins


, def not nightcrawlers, they look EXACTLY the same as the regular redworms, only much bigger, not brown or dark colored like a nightcrawler, besides, my old-man is a fisherman, and I've been around my share of worms in my life. They are for sure redworms, but significantly larger, and evidently, hungrier.
The research I've done implies that the earthworms don't compose food that great, they are more for aeration in the soil, they WILL compost, but not at the rate of the redworms.
now that I think about it, i'd say the reg redworms are about a third of the size of the bigger ones


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## smokey the cat (Sep 24, 2014)

cannakis said:


> why dont you just add the pumice instead of crushing it, it will degrade over time and you get more airation.


Pumice doesn't degrade, it's a rock. And yeah, this is my aeration amendment.



hyroot said:


> http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/product-category/bulk-soil-amendments/page/2


I wish - I'm on an island in the South Pacific! Sending rock around the globe isn't something I'm keen to do. I'd rather campaign a local supplier to start carrying it.
There is a quarry somewhere at the other end of the country which has supplied a few people with rock dust which tests highly paramagnetic, but I might not get there for months, hence the question on pumice.


I'll trying crushing a few handfuls of pumice today for some testing in a plant or two. It'll be stuff that was erupted in the last 3000 years or so. My reading says while volcanic it is ejected earlier in an eruption and is basically bubbled rock which tends to come from higher in the magma column than commonly used rock dusts like basalt and granite - might contain less mineral but have higher silica content. Probably alkali.

Can't hurt, just wondering if anyone here had tried or heard of it.




Mohican said:


> Careful grinding up pumice or lava rock. The dust will become concrete when it gets wet. I tried this once and it even smelled like concrete! I had to transplant it because the water would just sit on top of the soil and never drain.


Saw you begin the scoria attempt back on page 100 Mohican. thanks for the warning - definitely something that needs a careful trial with limited risk! Did you top dress or try and introduce the dust to a cooking soil?


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## Mohican (Sep 24, 2014)

Pumice does break down to smaller particles though, it is very soft.

I also added ash from some burned canna plants. I think the lava plus the ash made concrete.

I use greensand and azomite that I get at the local farm supply store. I also bake and grind eggshells.

Composting fast-growing weeds is also a good way to add some minerals to your soil. The weeds use the minerals to make their cellwalls sturdy so they can grow quickly and stay sturdy. I now compost all of my weeds especially dandelions for the silica.

There is also a product called lava sand that is said to be very beneficial for plants.

Do you have any local forests where you can dig up some native topsoil? It can be very beneficial with microbes and minerals.


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> nah
> 
> , def not nightcrawlers, they look EXACTLY the same as the regular redworms, only much bigger, not brown or dark colored like a nightcrawler, besides, my old-man is a fisherman, and I've been around my share of worms in my life. They are for sure redworms, but significantly larger, and evidently, hungrier.
> The research I've done implies that the earthworms don't compose food that great, they are more for aeration in the soil, they WILL compost, but not at the rate of the redworms.
> now that I think about it, i'd say the reg redworms are about a third of the size of the bigger ones



european night crawlers are red too. and larger than wigglers


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Pumice doesn't degrade, it's a rock. And yeah, this is my aeration amendment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


volcanic rock dust ( bentonite) is every where. If you are on an island. You should be able to find it in nature.


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## smokey the cat (Sep 24, 2014)

Nice thinking guys - though digging up soil around these parts is frowned upon. It's either farmland or protected conservation estate. I figure if I keep the eyes open I will stumble upon a source of some rock dust at some point, and one decent find should last me for life.

Got diverse compost with heaps of eggshell, comfrey rooting in the garden, fresh brown seaweed drying outside and now a little powdered pumice, lol.

Added a 30ml tablespoon to a 4litre (1gallon) container of cooking soil - pretty gluggy shit as I used a bit of water to keep the dust down. But there are worms in there to help get er mixed and I'll give it another good rotatation before planting in it. Planning on dissecting rootball after flowering so will see how clumpy it stayed.


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## cannakis (Sep 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> The clover will die out (and is currently doing so) when the canopy becomes too tight and not enough light gets down there. I let it die on the top, my philosophy is you don't want to disturb the soil by tilling.
> 
> And imo, yes, you absolutely need some kind of mulch on the top of your soil. This can be dead canna leaves, sticks, straw, etc. You do not want the top few inches of soil drying out.
> 
> P-


Why would you not want it to dryout? In my experience I find it better To dry out the soil... Too much water logged damage.

And you know actually back in the day Tilling the ground around crops was and is very beneficial! And actually is supposed to be done in dry weather because it causes a fermentation process and brings dew up from the ground. The only crop I have read that was not beneficial to hoe around regularly was corn which only needs to be hoed twice in It's lifecycle. And these are the old timers from hundreds of years ago. The Real masters of husbandry.


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## cannakis (Sep 24, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Question thread -
> 
> I have yet to find a source for rock dust. The local quarries are no help, and no garden places have it in my country.
> 
> ...


I saw you replied to what I said, but couldn't find it.

But just because it's a Rock does Not mean it will not degrade. Chelation breaks down the minerals into nutrients the plants can consume, and eventually over time it will degrade. But if you are saying you are using it for aeration then why even crush it.? Just get some gypsum and lime.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 24, 2014)

cannakis said:


> Why would you not want it to dryout? In my experience I find it better To dry out the soil... Too much water logged damage.
> 
> And you know actually back in the day Tilling the ground around crops was and is very beneficial! And actually is supposed to be done in dry weather because it causes a fermentation process and brings dew up from the ground. The only crop I have read that was not beneficial to hoe around regularly was corn which only needs to be hoed twice in It's lifecycle. And these are the old timers from hundreds of years ago. The Real masters of husbandry.


Cannakis, some of the experts can explain it better then I can. I'd start by finding some reading on the Soil Food Web. Teaming with Microbes has some great info on this. I'd read One Straw Revolution, and I'd start reading the Recycled Organic Living Soil thread. There is also a post of books/links in the organic section somewhere.

In a nut shell, It's the microbes that do the real work, dry soil = dead microbes. Tilling is not good for soil structure, the soil food web, it helps pioneer plants grow (weeds), aids in erosion, and has a myriad of negative effects.

P-


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## smokey the cat (Sep 24, 2014)

cannakis said:


> Just get some gypsum and lime.


Gypsum is calcium sulphate and garden lime is calcium carbonate - these are liming agents and have a different function to granite or basalt rock dust in soil.

Now my poor old brain is struggling to remember exactly why rock dust is so useful in an organic paradigm, but iirc it's to do with a) allowing much greater diversity of available micro nutrients, and b)providing surface area for fungi and bacteria.

http://www.soilandhealth.org/01aglibrary/010173.hensel.pdf - Bread from Stones is the one resource I remember on this, though I'm not sure how well regarded it is. Seems to be linked to by a ton of "Secrets-they-don't-want-you-to-know" sites which turns me right off. There's so much quackery in the organic field it can be hard to google the wheat from the chaff! 


The first 150 pages of the thread on IcyMag is amazing reading and has hundreds of useful resources. Probably worth reading two or three times over a period of months.


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## Scotch089 (Sep 24, 2014)

So what do you guys do to combat gnats, yea harmless, but I don't want em around.


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## smokey the cat (Sep 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> In a nut shell, It's the microbes that do the real work, dry soil = dead microbes. Tilling is not good for soil structure, the soil food web, it helps pioneer plants grow (weeds), aids in erosion, and has a myriad of negative effects.
> 
> P-


Yep. 
The thing with tilling or hoeing is that it destroys the fungal network as soon as the spade breaks the soil. Sensitive bloody fungus.

Teaming with microbes posits that tilling took off when farmers found vegetable crops increased after digging the soil and introducing manure. Destroying the fungi leads to bacterially dominant soil, which tends to do well for vegetables and other annual plants, but long term tends to lead to ever decreasing nutrient availability as the fungal networks are never established for long.

Over time working the soil like this also forms a compacted pan at the depth of tillage. This pan interferes with nutrient movement from deep->shallow soil and also water movement.


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## cannakis (Sep 25, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Cannakis, some of the experts can explain it better then I can. I'd start by finding some reading on the Soil Food Web. Teaming with Microbes has some great info on this. I'd read One Straw Revolution, and I'd start reading the Recycled Organic Living Soil thread. There is also a post of books/links in the organic section somewhere.
> 
> In a nut shell, It's the microbes that do the real work, dry soil = dead microbes. Tilling is not good for soil structure, the soil food web, it helps pioneer plants grow (weeds), aids in erosion, and has a myriad of negative effects.
> 
> P-


interesting i will have to do some rsearch and studying. thanks for the help.andyeah i mean hemp could be like corn, if it is hoed more than twice in its life thenit greatly diminishes growth, But Most Crops need to be hoed not goes constantly and that is from proven hundreds of years of experience and trials and consensus of everyone back in the day, like when you are supposed to transplant it is actually Better To wait until it is Dry! Well melons you can't do this, but like cabbage Explodes with growth if transplantedlike not love this even though it looks dead at first the heart still lives. i will have to do some experiments soon too after learning. thanks for the help i do understand what you are talking about to a degree.
oh and erosion wouldnt really be happening Inside would it? in optimal conditions.? Oh the main books I read are from Robert Squibb Gardeners Calendar for North and South Carolina and Georgia written in 1787, and the other is Southern Farmer and Market Gardener a useful compilation from the most approved authors written by Francis Simmons Holmes back in 1840.


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## cannakis (Sep 25, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Yep.
> The thing with tilling or hoeing is that it destroys the fungal network as soon as the spade breaks the soil. Sensitive bloody fungus.
> 
> Teaming with microbes posits that tilling took off when farmers found vegetable crops increased after digging the soil and introducing manure. Destroying the fungi leads to bacterially dominant soil, which tends to do well for vegetables and other annual plants, but long term tends to lead to ever decreasing nutrient availability as the fungal networks are never established for long.
> ...


Interesting. I will have to do some research and get back about this.


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## cannakis (Sep 25, 2014)

Scotch089 said:


> So what do you guys do to combat gnats, yea harmless, but I don't want em around.


I don't know the Best solution which these will have and I look forward to hear. But I just used apple cider vinegar in a 2liter cutin half with top flipped inside it and just fill the bottom with acv. They love it and will kill them selves in it.


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## cannakis (Sep 25, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Gypsum is calcium sulphate and garden lime is calcium carbonate - these are liming agents and have a different function to granite or basalt rock dust in soil.
> 
> Now my poor old brain is struggling to remember exactly why rock dust is so useful in an organic paradigm, but iirc it's to do with a) allowing much greater diversity of available micro nutrients, and b)providing surface area for fungi and bacteria.
> 
> ...


Which thread are you talking about?

Hahahaha I LOVE THAT! HAHA and I my self Am a conspiracy "nut" as many would like to say, though I just love llearning the Truth and reading Actual Documents and Letters, and watching Actual footage or hear the words from the wicked myself.! Haha but there Definitely Some Crazy fucking people out there who take it WAY to far! Haha when it goes to a geosites or angelfire Back Away Immediately Most of the time.! Haha there can be some good stuff out there, but A lot of crazy! Haha I called this number because it said oh I maybe killed or arrested by now, hahaha so my dumb ass called and it was this crazy lady rambling about mind reading lasers and the are controlling us with lasers, and don't get me wrong lasers Are used TO A DEGREE like this in special warfare, haha but I was just like well all we can do is just Trust THE LORD and Love HIM and Love Others. Haha and she kept trying to keep me on the phone and I was like I got to go! Alright wear your foil hat!


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## cannakis (Sep 25, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Gypsum is calcium sulphate and garden lime is calcium carbonate - these are liming agents and have a different function to granite or basalt rock dust in soil.
> 
> Now my poor old brain is struggling to remember exactly why rock dust is so useful in an organic paradigm, but iirc it's to do with a) allowing much greater diversity of available micro nutrients, and b)providing surface area for fungi and bacteria.
> 
> ...


Oh and I just got some blue granite which is Mainly Silica. And just got the smallest rocks could and it had dust all over them. $3 for 5gal


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## Pattahabi (Sep 25, 2014)

Read this for a different outlook on tilling and organic gardening.


P-


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## charpeasy420 (Sep 25, 2014)

So just as a hypothesis people that are incubating VC in the dark with baby oatmeal, Rye seed would most likely work because people that culture mycelium(FOR MICRSCOPY RESEARCH PURPOSES ONLY)....... haha ya witch is the same process but pure Rye seed is used and is the best nutritionally compared to corn, oatmeal, and coffee


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## Mohican (Sep 25, 2014)

I also place rocks (usually one) in my pots. I do not know why but it seems to make the plant happy


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## smokey the cat (Sep 25, 2014)

Biochar Question:

Here's what the retail char looks like - from http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/kis-biochar






Does it matter if my homemade chunks are bigger (mine are 1-2" across)?

Or should I aim for a similar particle consistency as the picture, smaller than a rice grain?


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## Pattahabi (Sep 25, 2014)

Smaller size = more surface area


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## a senile fungus (Sep 25, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Smaller size = more surface area



This, plus if you are loading the bio-char with N then it'll absorb more easily due to higher surface area to volume ratio.


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## Mohican (Sep 25, 2014)

Your bio char should shatter easily.


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## smokey the cat (Sep 26, 2014)

Cheers y'all. 

Banged out a couple of kilos of char in the ole mortar and pestle this afternoon. Using a hardwood lump charcoal sourced from Namibia - some invasive tree that they clear from the savannah and char and sell to BBQ nerds.

Activating recipe - liquid organic ferts with plenty of N, handful of compost and tablespoon of molasses in a bucket of dechlorinated water. Sounds like the way to grow and feed microbes to me, sound right to you lot?


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## Mohican (Sep 26, 2014)

Just give it a couple scoops of native soil to capture some of the local goodies.


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## anzohaze (Sep 26, 2014)

I wish I was adcanced as yall with all this I am trying learning and reading all I can but yall are like mad organic scientist


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## Mohican (Sep 27, 2014)

It isn't that hard. Try to do what nature does. Plants and animals drop waste and die. All of this stuff is digested by worms and bacteria and fungus (among other things). This is the type of soil that most plants like to grow in. Drainage is another issue. Canna hates wet roots.


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## anzohaze (Sep 27, 2014)

Mohican said:


> It isn't that hard. Try to do what nature does. Plants and animals drop waste and die. All of this stuff is digested by worms and bacteria and fungus (among other things). This is the type of soil that most plants like to grow in. Drainage is another issue. Canna hates wet roots.


I agree but I am just auto tech (mechanic) and have never grown a plant till mj. I have always been successful not great but I have never lost yet. So I am not complaining. But like all the rock dust, leaf molds, vegan way of feeding l, I would never have thought volcanic, gypsum etc would ever do or have minerals or be beneficial in any way. When yall add this dust do yall mix it in from beginning like an ammendmant or do you top dress etc sorry if I making yall go backwards but I am trting to learn and this rols thread is a monster thanks fellas


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## Mohican (Sep 27, 2014)

I simple place to start is Subcool's Super Soil recipe. I think this is the latest version:

http://www.gardengroveorganics.com/knowledge-base/subcool-super-soil/


Cheers,
Mo


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## fridayfishfry (Sep 28, 2014)

Question.. Would it be productive to recycle one gallon fiber pots of soil?


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## smokey the cat (Sep 28, 2014)

fridayfishfry said:


> Question.. Would it be productive to recycle one gallon fiber pots of soil?


I think it'd be unproductive to throw soil out after a single use. I grow in 4 litre (~1 gal) - will be remixing, amending and cooking before reuse - will let you know, haha.

Providing inputs are OK it should be fine. Keep in mind if you have to feed heavily during a cycle the risk is of buildup of something or other in your small pot.

1 gal is easy enough to run a comparison trial between resused and fresh medium - definitely try it.


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## fridayfishfry (Sep 28, 2014)

thats one lazy cat


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## DonPetro (Sep 28, 2014)

fridayfishfry said:


> Question.. Would it be productive to recycle one gallon fiber pots of soil?


Always recycle your soil! Maybe you are referring to no-till?


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## Pattahabi (Sep 28, 2014)

Black Widow



P-


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## DonPetro (Sep 28, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Black Widow
> 
> View attachment 3263241
> 
> P-


Love the back drop


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## swiftkillpapa (Sep 28, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I simple place to start is Subcool's Super Soil recipe. I think this is the latest version:
> 
> http://www.gardengroveorganics.com/knowledge-base/subcool-super-soil/
> 
> ...


He has a newer one he posted on one of his YouTube videos. I'll look to see if I can find it again. But he took out rock phosphate because he didn't believe it made a difference. He also added crab meal, alfalfa meal, kelp meal, and I think the other was oyster shells but I'd have to revisit my notes I wrote down. But other than that's it's always the same. O and half the bags of roots organics to trade it for bio light and bio coco
Has anyone seen the guy selling super coco soil? "A true water only soil"
And as for a question. I just discovered biochar. How do you guys apply it to your soil and/or mixes of soils?


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## a senile fungus (Sep 28, 2014)

swiftkillpapa said:


> He has a newer one he posted on one of his YouTube videos. I'll look to see if I can find it again. But he took out rock phosphate because he didn't believe it made a difference. He also added crab meal, alfalfa meal, kelp meal, and I think the other was oyster shells but I'd have to revisit my notes I wrote down. But other than that's it's always the same. O and half the bags of roots organics to trade it for bio light and bio coco
> Has anyone seen the guy selling super coco soil? "A true water only soil"
> And as for a question. I just discovered biochar. How do you guys apply it to your soil and/or mixes of soils?


See post #3425


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## fridayfishfry (Sep 28, 2014)

one fungus to rule them all... yes i meant no till. it's always good to recycle soil if you grow organic. you get yourself in trouble with balls of salty roots lying around


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## Pattahabi (Sep 28, 2014)

There are 100 ways to skin a cat, and I know people have had some success with subcool's recipe. With that said, I really would stay away from anything subcool has to say about organics and that mix. It's a laundry list of NPK ingredients in attempt to balance ratios. Go back and read the first few pages of this thread. Look for Coot's recipe. I'm willing to bet you will have far more success with Coot's recipe.

Just my 2¢,
P-


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## hyroot (Sep 28, 2014)

Sub is using vega matrix along with super soil now too. His outdoor looks so dank though. Looks better than his indoor.

the guys at monster garden have the list of ingredients posted in their store. They added kelp meal and crab meal to the recipe too. Then sub started adding that too. Personally I like the cootz mix too. Cann did a comparison between subs recipe and cootz early on in this thread and in his old thread. Cootz mix beat super soil

https://www.rollitup.org/t/canns-organic-no-till-garden.634028/


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## Pattahabi (Sep 28, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Sub is using vega matrix along with super soil now too. His outdoor looks so dank though. Looks better than his indoor.
> 
> the guys at monster garden have the list of ingredients posted in their store. They added kelp meal and crab meal to the recipe too. Then sub started adding that too. Personally I like the cootz mix too. Cann did a comparison between subs recipe and cootz early on in this thread and in his old thread. Cootz mix beat super soil
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/canns-organic-no-till-garden.634028/


Interesting they added kelp and crab... what next neem? lol! 

The other thing I really don't like about subtool's mix is the lack of emphasis put on the humus source. Well, that, and he throws his soil out after each run last I heard. 

Peace!
P-


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## hyroot (Sep 28, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Interesting they added kelp and crab... what next neem? lol!
> 
> The other thing I really don't like about subtool's mix is the lack of emphasis put on the humus source. Well, that, and he throws his soil out after each run last I heard.
> 
> ...



sub has told me his used soil goes into a veggie garden. On a weed nerd ep he said the crab meal brings out the flavor more lol.. his recipe includes 25-50 lbs of worm castings . Thats not enough..


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## DonPetro (Sep 28, 2014)

Alot of recipes call for a third of your base to be worm castings. I've always preferred using less(20%+/-5%) with stellar results. 
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/organic/news/2014/2014-06a3.htm
Great topic to debate.


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## hyroot (Sep 28, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Alot of recipes call for a third of your base to be worm castings. I've always preferred using less(20%+/-5%) with stellar results.
> http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/organic/news/2014/2014-06a3.htm
> Great topic to debate.


25 lbs of ewc is 1/15 of super soil recipe. No where near 20%


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## Pattahabi (Sep 28, 2014)

hyroot said:


> sub has told me his used soil goes into a veggie garden. On a weed nerd ep he said the crab meal brings out the flavor more lol.. his recipe includes 25-50 lbs of worm castings . Thats not enough..


Sub is a complete moron and should not be allowed to tell people how to grow. 



DonPetro said:


> Alot of recipes call for a third of your base to be worm castings. I've always preferred using less(20%+/-5%) with stellar results.
> http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/organic/news/2014/2014-06a3.htm
> Great topic to debate.


DonP, I like to have 15% EWC 15% high quality thermal compost, or just 30% high quality vermicompost. I'm not especially fond of 33% EWC. I went that route, I thought it lacked of diversity.

my 2¢,
P-


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## foreverflyhi (Sep 29, 2014)

It took me a long time to realize supersoil or tlo was just another hydroponic way of thinking. 

But once i truly started reading on how organics works, ive realized we are really growing soil and keeping it alive, plants do the rest


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## Mohican (Sep 29, 2014)

He may not be a PhD, but moron is a little harsh. He has a ton of experience that serves him well.
Super Soil is far from perfect. I was just saying that it was a starting point. 

Do you have a link to Coots recipe? It would be nice to have a basic recipe that everybody could start with in the beginning. Something simple and readily available most anywhere.


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## Mohican (Sep 29, 2014)

My Vermicompost is the most potent soil amendment I have ever used. Everything loves it! I wish I could buy bags of it somewhere! I think the coffee makes the plants grow faster hehe


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## hyroot (Sep 29, 2014)

Mohican said:


> He may not be a PhD, but moron is a little harsh. He has a ton of experience that serves him well.
> Super Soil is far from perfect. I was just saying that it was a starting point.
> 
> Do you have a link to Coots recipe? It would be nice to have a basic recipe that everybody could start with in the beginning. Something simple and readily available most anywhere.


its at the beginning of this thread.


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## a senile fungus (Sep 29, 2014)

If anyone from Michigan needs compost or earthworm casting please PM me

I have two great sources in southeastern Michigan for both these things.

The castings are from a local worm farm, I just picked up 60lbs today. The guy was great, very knowledgeable and showed me how to make my own bin.

The compost is pine shavings, hay, and horse manure and has been in a compost pile for years! It looks amazing! Picked up another 60lbs of that today as well! 

I'm stoked!


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## a senile fungus (Sep 29, 2014)

Compost pile


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## a senile fungus (Sep 29, 2014)




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## Mohican (Sep 29, 2014)

I thought peat was bad?


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## a senile fungus (Sep 29, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I thought peat was bad?



Sphagnum peat moss is recommended for cootz' recipe...


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## smokey the cat (Sep 30, 2014)

Just got the tomato bins ready for the summer. Some 5 year old 80litre (~20gallon) sturdy plastic bins I have drilled a few holes in for drainage - a little bleached from a half decade sitting out in the high UV here.


Reusing some shitty bark-based potting mix from last year, adding about a third of volume in new household compost. Couple of handfuls of Dynamic Lifter (organic composted pellets of chicken manure, kelp and fish bits) per bin - its great stuff. Half a sack of pumice between them, and handful of very fine sand each in the hopes it has something extra. Plus a little dolo lime I have kicking around and want to get rid of, lol.

Threw in some brown seaweed, and a couple of handfuls of newly inoculated biochar. 

Tomorrow I'll give them a good dose of molasses to get em running and transplant a half-cup of worms from the compost bin to give the soil a bit of activity.

Will have to go shopping in the next week or two for an airpump and stone to get an ACT system up and running. Had big issues last season with black powdery mildew - apparently foliar ACT will out-compete fungal pathogens, if so that's just the solution I'm looking for.

I've pulled monster crops off these bins in the past - shame it's just bloody tomatoes!


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 30, 2014)

Mohican said:


> He may not be a PhD, but moron is a little harsh. He has a ton of experience that serves him well.
> Super Soil is far from perfect. I was just saying that it was a starting point.
> 
> Do you have a link to Coots recipe? It would be nice to have a basic recipe that everybody could start with in the beginning. Something simple and readily available most anywhere.


Mo, I have much respect for you. Please don't take this personal. Doing something wrong for a lot of years does not make you an expert. My calling sub a moron was me sugar coating it. He has cost people like ourselves countless amounts of hard earned dollars so he could be the poster child for cannabis growing. I listened to about 5 mins of some weed nerd video and I had to shut it off. 

Maybe he should take a little time off camera and actually do a little horticulture reading. Just a thought.

This is the Coot recipe I go by.

33% Sphagnum Peat Moss
33% Aeration
33% High Quality EWC and/or Vermicompost
(some people run 50%/25%/25% Ratios)

To each 1 c.f. of this mix I add the following:

1/2 cup organic Neem meal
1/2 cup organic Kelp meal
1/2 cup Crab meal

4-5 cups of some minerals which can vary depending on what you have available. The bulk of the mix should be basalt and/or glacial rock dust; with some oyster shell and maybe gypsum as secondaries. Something like 4c basalt/glacial, 1/2c oyster shell, 1/2c gypsum.

Peace!
P-


----------



## elkamino (Sep 30, 2014)

When heading outside to bring in a few shovelfuls of outdoor soil to increase microbial activity of indoor soil, is there anything in particular to look for before choosing to dig? I assume I should just look for plants that grow similarly to cannabis- sunny, fast-growing, healthy- and dig nearby. As in, are there ways to target zones that have more of the desired molds, bacteria etc and fewer of those that may be detrimental? PS- I live in AK, and soil options are more limited here than in the lower 48- dunno if that matters!

Anyway, there's so much good info on this thread... and respectful back and forths. I've learned so much, thanks to all for sharing!


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 30, 2014)

elkamino said:


> When heading outside to bring in a few shovelfuls of outdoor soil to increase microbial activity of indoor soil, is there anything in particular to look for before choosing to dig? I assume I should just look for plants that grow similarly to cannabis- sunny, fast-growing, healthy- and dig nearby. As in, are there ways to target zones that have more of the desired molds, bacteria etc and fewer of those that may be detrimental? PS- I live in AK, and soil options are more limited here than in the lower 48- dunno if that matters!
> 
> Anyway, there's so much good info on this thread... and respectful back and forths. I've learned so much, thanks to all for sharing!


Hi Elk! 

A couple of things. First and foremost, be respectful of nature when foraging. With that said, if you can find and old growth forest or a high humus undisturbed area that would be awesome. What we are looking for are not just the physical properties of the soil, but the micro and macro life that inhibits it. I would only take stuff from areas where plants are thriving. A few handfuls of clay out of a riverbed also wouldn't hurt.

Peace!
P-


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## thougthcompost (Sep 30, 2014)

Check out the Soil Amendment Calculator at TeaLAB. 

http://composttealab.com/SOIL_AMENDMENT_CALCULATOR.html

Figure out how much bone meal, kelp meal, azomite, etc. to apply to your garden. Calculators for both Container Gardens and Beds/Fields/Trenches. And it's FREE. There are no other similar calculators online. This is a bad ass resource.


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## Mohican (Sep 30, 2014)

I know! Sub is an acquired taste. 
I have worked globally for many years now and have learned how to identify talent in the most repulsive personalities. Sub isn't even close to most offensive person I know. He does have access to some amazing genetics and he has protected them for a long time. Lately he has let others go crazy with the crosses. However, his Jack, Space, Orange, strains just to name a few are phenomenal. On top of that I like the fact that he can do all of this with such a limited toolbox. He is quite a force of nature  MzJill is very cool also!

I am not upset talking about this. It took me a long time to discover that all people have talents. You just need to take the time to find it. 

If it wasn't for this thread and the vermicompost thread, I never would have tried composting and natural methods. Up until a few years ago I swore by Miracle Grow. 

I am not trying to convince any of you to love Subcool. Please don't be haters though - OK?


Cheers,
Mo


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 30, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I know! Sub is an acquired taste.
> I have worked globally for many years now and have learned how to identify talent in the most repulsive personalities. Sub isn't even close to most offensive person I know. He does have access to some amazing genetics and he has protected them for a long time. Lately he has let others go crazy with the crosses. However, his Jack, Space, Orange, strains just to name a few are phenomenal. On top of that I like the fact that he can do all of this with such a limited toolbox. He is quite a force of nature  MzJill is very cool also!
> 
> I am not upset talking about this. It took me a long time to discover that all people have talents. You just need to take the time to find it.
> ...



I think it's unfair that subcool gets a bad rap for his genetics. Everyone that tries his Cheesequake that I've had for years loves it. I also grew his Jilybean which was nice as well. I'm going to grab a pack of Chernobyl and Ripped Bubba too.

As far as sub the person, I feel a lot of the criticism is warranted. I lost what little respect I had for him when I saw him openly celebrating gypsy nirvana getting popped by law enforcement. I found that to be in very poor taste


----------



## Mohican (Sep 30, 2014)

He stated his reasons for that reaction, and it wasn't trivial.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Sep 30, 2014)

Mohican said:


> My Vermicompost is the most potent soil amendment I have ever used. Everything loves it! I wish I could buy bags of it somewhere! I think the coffee makes the plants grow faster hehe


 I echo this, like I've said before, a homegrown EWC is the best EWC you can get. Fresh is best. I've been feeding my worms some alpaca manure mixed in with their normal food, they seem to like it, and i'm eagerly awaiting my trial run with my "new" castings. Gonna give them another two weeks to finish composting it, and my next flowering run will determine if it's all for naught, or not.


----------



## DonPetro (Sep 30, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I think it's unfair that subcool gets a bad rap for his genetics. Everyone that tries his Cheesequake that I've had for years loves it. I also grew his Jilybean which was nice as well. I'm going to grab a pack of Chernobyl and Ripped Bubba too.
> 
> As far as sub the person, I feel a lot of the criticism is warranted. I lost what little respect I had for him when I saw him openly celebrating gypsy nirvana getting popped by law enforcement. I found that to be in very poor taste


Chernobyl is great. I find it a liitle lacking in flavour though. @DonTesla loves it and the Vortex.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 30, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Chernobyl is great. I find it a liitle lacking in flavour though. @DonTesla loves it and the Vortex.


I've grown the agent orange, and the cheesequake, via clones, not from seed, they were alright, nothing extraordinary though, the agent orange was a lil better, but the cheesequake produced more.
I've seen some vortex that has made me want to buy a pack of em, and the pics of the jellybean are damn nice. The ONLY strain that really has got me curious is the jack the ripper, I smoked a joint of that from a friend years ago (probably around 2005?) and it knocked me down good, a STRONG strain.
My problem is I already have like 15 different strains i'm tryin to figure out already, so another 10 seeds, sex them, clone them, flower them. it's a lot of work. I literally don't have the room for them..... But damnit, I want a good JTR...
but Bodhi's seeds look great, sannie has some that are appealing, I mean, shit... I obviously have a problem. Thankfully i'm not like this with women....anymore.


----------



## DonTesla (Sep 30, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Chernobyl is great. I find it a liitle lacking in flavour though. @DonTesla loves it and the Vortex.


Yea they both lack a bit in flavour but not in potency, nor aroma, or bag appeal.. the chernobyl bk has been hitting me harder and harder in the last few days.. wait, its only been a couple.. see what i mean? 

as for vortex, its on another level, high-wise.. NO CEILING…you keep getting waves of going 'higher'.. flavour wise, yea it too, is fairly weak.. this pheno is more grapey / bubble gummy so we shall see.. that said i would rather have something tasty to go with these than go without.. the vortex anyway is a must have in my books, at least for one sesh a week


----------



## hyroot (Sep 30, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I've grown the agent orange, and the cheesequake, via clones, not from seed, they were alright, nothing extraordinary though, the agent orange was a lil better, but the cheesequake produced more.
> I've seen some vortex that has made me want to buy a pack of em, and the pics of the jellybean are damn nice. The ONLY strain that really has got me curious is the jack the ripper, I smoked a joint of that from a friend years ago (probably around 2005?) and it knocked me down good, a STRONG strain.
> My problem is I already have like 15 different strains i'm tryin to figure out already, so another 10 seeds, sex them, clone them, flower them. it's a lot of work. I literally don't have the room for them..... But damnit, I want a good JTR...
> but Bodhi's seeds look great, sannie has some that are appealing, I mean, shit... I obviously have a problem. Thankfully i'm not like this with women....anymore.



if it came from a dispensary. You know the grower most likely kept the best pheno for himself and sold the other phenos to the dispensary. Finding that dank pheno is worth doing it from seed. The recessive traits don't come out til the clones either.


----------



## DonTesla (Sep 30, 2014)

I just burnt some food, frozen stupid by Chernobyl. Even the .. yea.. its strong..


----------



## hyroot (Sep 30, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> I just burnt some food, frozen stupid by Chernobyl. Even the .. yea.. its strong..


don't feel bad. I was boiling water for drinking tea. I forgot. I boiled away a whole gallon of water. What a waste.


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 30, 2014)

@Mohican , again with all respect, this is all I can say on his genetics. I grew out some chernobyl for a couple rounds. It was a pretty good high, and lots of resin. The structure of the plant was terrible. It was constantly a wet noodle, didn't pack on very big buds, and I always ended up with a ton of trim leaves. The taste was lacking, and no matter what I did it seemed harsh. Generally I look to grower and conditions for some of these things, but I run half a dozen or more varieties at the same time, in the same room. So it was decent, but nothing I'd grow again. There are a list of breeders I would choose before TGA.

I think far less of his growing advise and morals then of his genetics.

P-


----------



## hyroot (Sep 30, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> @Mohican , again with all respect, this is all I can say on his genetics. I grew out some chernobyl for a couple rounds. It was a pretty good high, and lots of resin. The structure of the plant was terrible. It was constantly a wet noodle, didn't pack on very big buds, and I always ended up with a ton of trim leaves. The taste was lacking, and no matter what I did it seemed harsh. Generally I look to grower and conditions for some of these things, but I run half a dozen or more varieties at the same time, in the same room. So it was decent, but nothing I'd grow again. There are a list of breeders I would choose before TGA.
> 
> I think far less of his growing advise and morals then of his genetics.
> 
> P-


Chernobyl is a small yielder period. It even says that n the site. It's like growing cookies and expecting donkey colas. It's not going to happen. Not all strains yield big. A lot of strains don't yield shit. Look at real og. Larry or sfv. Small yielders too. Real master kush a small yielder. Purple kush even smaller yielder and pk has to be vegged for 4 months just to get a zip per plant. All my Tga has produced big buds. Quantum kush, plushberry, Jesus og, 9lb hammer, and then jillybean was a small yilelder but very dense buds. also each strain takes to each training method differently. Some do better topped multiple times. Some do better not topped at all. Some do better with lst.


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 30, 2014)

hyroot said:


> Chernobyl is a small yielder period. It even says that n the site. It's like growing cookies and expecting donkey colas. It's not going to happen. Not all strains yield big. A lot of strains don't yield shit. Look at real og. Larry or sfv. Small yielders too. Real master kush a small yielder. Purple kush even smaller yielder and pk has to be vegged for 4 months just to get a zip per plant. All my Tga has produced big buds. Quantum kush, plushberry, Jesus og, 9lb hammer, and then jillybean was a small yilelder but very dense buds. also each strain takes to each training method differently. Some do better topped multiple times. Some do better not topped at all. Some do better with lst.


Thanks, but this isn't my first rodeo. Yield is about #4 on on my keeper criteria. I have a list of plants that tasted better, were more potent, easier to grow, and larger yielding. Of course most of this is subjective and grower dependent.

Just sayin...
P-


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## cannakis (Oct 1, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Always recycle your soil! Maybe you are referring to no-till?


so after Every grow you Reamend the soil? or just reuse it and amend like every year or so?


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 1, 2014)

cannakis said:


> so after Every grow you Reamend the soil? or just reuse it and amend like every year or so?


You reamend according to how you feel your quality or health of the soil. Having said that, if you followed coots or any proven rols recipe with quality amendments, your soil will only get better.
My first rols batch lasted up to 2 years, i started to see a lost of yield around 7-8 harvest.
My second batch gave great nugs, but i knew it lacked a good rock mix, with other quality amendments that i skipped, which resulted in low yield and other deficiencies, so i reamend it as soon as first harvest was done. Im currently using my first rols batch again, and second is being remanded.

Also drainage is something im currently trying to fix, i added extra pumice to my first batch, and vermiculite in my second, just judging by drainage and texture, im digging the vermiculite mix, has a great texture!


----------



## foreverflyhi (Oct 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> @Mohican , again with all respect, this is all I can say on his genetics. I grew out some chernobyl for a couple rounds. It was a pretty good high, and lots of resin. The structure of the plant was terrible. It was constantly a wet noodle, didn't pack on very big buds, and I always ended up with a ton of trim leaves. The taste was lacking, and no matter what I did it seemed harsh. Generally I look to grower and conditions for some of these things, but I run half a dozen or more varieties at the same time, in the same room. So it was decent, but nothing I'd grow again. There are a list of breeders I would choose before TGA.
> 
> I think far less of his growing advise and morals then of his genetics.
> 
> P-


Word.
I too feel that way by tga and subcool.

but i know good skunk and kush strains, quantum and 9lbs is no joke!!! I have people drool over my quantum!

Thats why im more then open to keep trying tga strains(cough hyroot cough), but dont get me wrong, i by far choose rascal genetics anyday


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## cannakis (Oct 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> @Mohican , again with all respect, this is all I can say on his genetics. I grew out some chernobyl for a couple rounds. It was a pretty good high, and lots of resin. The structure of the plant was terrible. It was constantly a wet noodle, didn't pack on very big buds, and I always ended up with a ton of trim leaves. The taste was lacking, and no matter what I did it seemed harsh. Generally I look to grower and conditions for some of these things, but I run half a dozen or more varieties at the same time, in the same room. So it was decent, but nothing I'd grow again. There are a list of breeders I would choose before TGA.
> 
> I think far less of his growing advise and morals then of his genetics.
> 
> P-


haha i Love this! thats how kc's seeds are, but every dna's seemed amazing for me, and i always thought it was the breeders and cultivation which made perfection. 

but what would be your favorite breeders?


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## Mad Hamish (Oct 1, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I think it's unfair that subcool gets a bad rap for his genetics. Everyone that tries his Cheesequake that I've had for years loves it. I also grew his Jilybean which was nice as well. I'm going to grab a pack of Chernobyl and Ripped Bubba too.
> 
> As far as sub the person, I feel a lot of the criticism is warranted. I lost what little respect I had for him when I saw him openly celebrating gypsy nirvana getting popped by law enforcement. I found that to be in very poor taste


You aint no angel so lets not have the pot call the kettle black mate. Last thingg anybody on this site has the right to do is judge a public figure. We all have our fueds. They always get nasty. At least subs genetics do the talking, and he didn't rip them from anybody else. What else matters?


----------



## reasonevangelist (Oct 1, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> You aint no angel so lets not have the pot call the kettle black mate. *Last thingg anybody on this site has the right to do is judge* a public figure. We all have our fueds. They always get nasty. At least subs genetics do the talking, and he didn't rip them from anybody else. What else matters?


Nope! Personal judgment and assessment criteria selection, is everyone's right, actually. 

But, just as it is my right to use my own judgment as i see fit, it is your right to disregard my judgment. It's not "the judgment" that is wrong, but that too many people don't understand how to correctly utilize it, and often employ inappropriate assessment criteria in the process, leading to what is called "poor judgment." 

However, i have no dog in this fight. People criticize; it's often good to be critical, to be skeptical, to scrutinize. Some circles call that "peer review," and hold this practice in high regard. 

Part of putting any part of yourself "out there" in the public sphere, is willingly exposing oneself to predictable and inevitable faulty judgment. The one being judged, usually knows whether the judgment is fair or not. Maybe we should let Sub himself decide whether he's been misjudged? Most people declare such things by default, so idk how reliable or valid that would be. 

Who decides who is allowed to judge whom and/or what, and by which criteria? 

Who decides what you are allowed to think, and why you are allowed to think it? 

You do; according to your own judgment, developed through your own unique combination of experiences. 

Ergo: everyone has the right to judge what they perceive, according to how they perceive it... even if everyone else thinks they're doing it wrong. It is each individual's duty and responsibility, to decide for themselves, how to judge what, or whom.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 1, 2014)

cannakis said:


> haha i Love this! thats how kc's seeds are, but every dna's seemed amazing for me, and i always thought it was the breeders and cultivation which made perfection.
> 
> but what would be your favorite breeders?


Hands down my favorite breeder atm is Bodhi. I've grown many of his strains, and often times several phenos of each strain, and his gear is always top notch. Other breeders that I have had good experience with are Eskobar, Og Raskal, Mr.Nice, 303 seeds, Emerald Triangle, and lately, I've been liking some Gage Green.

P-


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## DonTesla (Oct 1, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hands down my favorite breeder atm is Bodhi. I've grown many of his strains, and often times several phenos of each stain, and his gear is always top notch. Other breeders that I have had good experience with are Eskobar, Og Raskal, Mr.Nice, 303 seeds, Emerald Triangle, and lately, I've been liking some Gage Green.
> 
> P-


Gage Green is awesome. Petro got me on to them… have you finished growing anything from them?


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## Pattahabi (Oct 1, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Gage Green is awesome. Petro got me on to them… have you finished growing anything from them?


I grew their Afghan Haze bastard series and it was pretty darn good. I have two grape stomper og's at day 23 right now. One of the phenos started frosting at day 14! Their gear is pretty pricy, but if the rest of their stuff is anything like this grape stomper, I'm going to have to pick up a couple more varieties. I heard good stuff about the Cornerstone and Sugartown Expres, but I'd love to hear what other people enjoy from them!

Peace!
P-


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 1, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> You aint no angel so lets not have the pot call the kettle black mate. *Last thingg anybody on this site has the right to do is judge a public figure.* We all have our fueds. They always get nasty. At least subs genetics do the talking, and he didn't rip them from anybody else. What else matters?


Because public figures are above people on this site? They deserve kid gloves?

You've lost your marbles black hamish.


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## hyroot (Oct 1, 2014)

I
sub doesn't breed ever strain. There like 4 or 5 breeders under tga. Imo the best Tga gear is breed by odie and jinx. Odie made quantum kush. Jinx made 9lb. Odie told me at chalice his favorite current smoke is localmotion. I still have seeds of that to pop. I discontinued my plushberry. One of the quantum phenos I lost. Wouldn't root. Still.doing the pheno hunt for 9lb. Already did away with one pheno. I've ran soma, Dutch passion, sagmartha, sensi, green house, flying Dutchmen, nirvana, Tga. I have seen a friends sin city blue power. That was really good. Of what I've done the best strains imo came from soma and Tga. At hempcon in a few weeks I plan on grabbing some gage green and sin city. Maybe conspiracy kush from Tga. I'd love to try bodhi strains. But bodhi never hits up the festivals. I won't order seeds at all.


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## Mohican (Oct 1, 2014)

I am chasing old genetics. I love the TGA Jesus OG (Hells Angel's cut of original OG Kush crossed with Jacks Cleaner and Space Jill), Scott's OG (Triangle Cross), Paki Punch (local Paki cross), JIlly Bean (Agent Orange cross), Landraces (Thai, African, Mexican...). I can't wait to try the Mexican Red seeds on their way 

OH - and the Mohican Top Hat seeds 

Cheers,
Mo


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## hyroot (Oct 1, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I am chasing old genetics. I love the TGA Jesus OG (Hells Angel's cut of original OG Kush crossed with Jacks Cleaner and Space Jill), Scott's OG (Triangle Cross), Paki Punch (local Paki cross), JIlly Bean (Agent Orange cross), Landraces (Thai, African, Mexican...). I can't wait to try the Mexican Red seeds on their way
> 
> OH - and the Mohican Top Hat seeds
> 
> ...


do you still have paki punch? Or just jaki.


----------



## SouthernSoil** (Oct 1, 2014)

Hey everybody ! Im back! unfortunately lost my original account : / not sure if anybody remembers me .. Peace !


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## Mohican (Oct 1, 2014)

I still have some Paki.


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## DonPetro (Oct 1, 2014)

SouthernSoil** said:


> Hey everybody ! Im back! unfortunately lost my original account : / not sure if anybody remembers me .. Peace !


How'd the soil build go?


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## cannakis (Oct 1, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Because public figures are above people on this site? They deserve kid gloves?
> 
> You've lost your marbles black hamish.


hahaha i love that! public figures Demand our respect, its our duty as serfs and peasants.!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 1, 2014)

This is kind of hard to tell, but the plant in the front and center is a Black Widow from Mr.Nice - Day 23.



Peace!
P-


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 2, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> This is kind of hard to tell, but the plant in the front and center is a Black Widow from Mr.Nice - Day 23.
> 
> View attachment 3265673
> 
> ...



First time growing BW Pat? Curious to see what you think of them. I want to grab a pack of those but would like to wait until I'm up to snuff on pollen chucking. Heard the BW males make for good studs


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## DonPetro (Oct 2, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> This is kind of hard to tell, but the plant in the front and center is a Black Widow from Mr.Nice - Day 23.
> 
> View attachment 3265673
> 
> ...


Thats alot of bud sites!


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 2, 2014)

anzohaze said:


> I agree but I am just auto tech (mechanic) and have never grown a plant till mj. I have always been successful not great but I have never lost yet. So I am not complaining. But like all the rock dust, leaf molds, vegan way of feeding l, I would never have thought volcanic, gypsum etc would ever do or have minerals or be beneficial in any way. When yall add this dust do yall mix it in from beginning like an ammendmant or do you top dress etc sorry if I making yall go backwards but I am trting to learn and this rols thread is a monster thanks fellas


 felt the urge to reply, Us auto-technicians need to stand together! If you are anything like me, you'd be surprised how rewarding growing normal houseplants are, not to mention it'll teach you a BUNCH, kinda like learning the basics of an efi/sfi/mfi fuel system, learn on those before the german DFIs. Get your feet wet a lil


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## anzohaze (Oct 2, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> felt the urge to reply, Us auto-technicians need to stand together! If you are anything like me, you'd be surprised how rewarding growing normal houseplants are, not to mention it'll teach you a BUNCH, kinda like learning the basics of an efi/sfi/mfi fuel system, learn on those before the german DFIs. Get your feet wet a lil


I have several grows under my belt along being a partner I have never been organic so its all new but im learning. Show or teach me once I got it. I love german cars they make.me so much money


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 2, 2014)

anzohaze said:


> I have several grows under my belt along being a partner I have never been organic so its all new but im learning. Show or teach me once I got it. I love german cars yhey make.menzo much money


 ahh, well, we differ there, any car sold without an oil dipstick is gonna make me hate... steering angle sensor reset, remote key fobs, thousands of dollars in software, special scantools (VAG, etc) No thank you.
Although those customers typically don't nickel and dime your repair quotes. The money is in the emissions industry, my biggest profit margins are there, although I just had to buy a new machine (BAR OIS)


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## anzohaze (Oct 2, 2014)

Autologic does alot of german cars for re flashing amazing data display and is nice stuff if you fet into german look into it volvo owner spend.money like no tomorrow


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## Mohican (Oct 2, 2014)

Loved my 240Z. Body, Engine, Transmission, seats  

The only trick was dialing in the Solex side drafts.


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## SouthernSoil** (Oct 2, 2014)

Beautiful


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## Pattahabi (Oct 2, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> First time growing BW Pat? Curious to see what you think of them. I want to grab a pack of those but would like to wait until I'm up to snuff on pollen chucking. Heard the BW males make for good studs


Hey Stow! I grew one pheno out about 1-1.5 years ago. I liked the smoke, put the seeds away thinking the same as you, I wanted them for a breeding project. I have a male I will be collecting pollen form tonight or tomorrow and then I'll hit it to some of the ladies. I'm also going to toss a little g13/hp pollen around.



DonPetro said:


> Thats alot of bud sites!


Thanks DonP! I did a crappy job supporting them. I missed it all together, so I'm going to have to stake em. They are too tall, so I'm going to have to tie down more, and hope for the best. They grew too big this time! lol!

Dispensed about 4,000 Amblyseius fallacis today. Hopefully that should take care of any straggling spider mites. It's getting cold, they always like to come in and screw up my grows this time of year!



Peace!
P-


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## cannakis (Oct 2, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ahh, well, we differ there, any car sold without an oil dipstick is gonna make me hate... steering angle sensor reset, remote key fobs, thousands of dollars in software, special scantools (VAG, etc) No thank you.
> Although those customers typically don't nickel and dime your repair quotes. The money is in the emissions industry, my biggest profit margins are there, although I just had to buy a new machine (BAR OIS)


yeah and the emissions regulatins are bull shit! thank JESUS CHRIST i dont live in a county that recognizes them! i would have to spend Hundreds of dollars for a bull shit co2 sensor and then drive around aful tank and come back! fuck that! co2 is essential to Life! what about the carbon Monoxide and Sulfur and ither Poisonous gases that are released from fossel fuels, but nope Just carbon Dioxide! if only we could make moon shine freely we could use That for gas and will Actually clean the carbon from engines and burns clean "evil" co2! sorry, thats cool you profit off of regulations, but i fucking Hate them and especially the ones tgat just Steal from Citizens. and those that day ethanol is bad for cars... that is because it is Synthetic Ethanol derived From petroleum and mixed with chemically processed corn ethanol. which they say we cant make ethanol from hay or corn stalks But you can! just make a pile bigger than 3' and wet and turn and it will Ferment, do that in a pot and cook it and boom! there is actually a Scholarly Journal Article on ethanol from straw, but it cost like $300 to fucking read! hmm! i wonder why?!


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 3, 2014)

cannakis said:


> yeah and the emissions regulatins are bull shit! thank JESUS CHRIST i dont live in a county that recognizes them! i would have to spend Hundreds of dollars for a bull shit co2 sensor and then drive around aful tank and come back! fuck that! co2 is essential to Life! what about the carbon Monoxide and Sulfur and ither Poisonous gases that are released from fossel fuels, but nope Just carbon Dioxide! if only we could make moon shine freely we could use That for gas and will Actually clean the carbon from engines and burns clean "evil" co2! sorry, thats cool you profit off of regulations, but i fucking Hate them and especially the ones tgat just Steal from Citizens. and those that day ethanol is bad for cars... that is because it is Synthetic Ethanol derived From petroleum and mixed with chemically processed corn ethanol. which they say we cant make ethanol from hay or corn stalks But you can! just make a pile bigger than 3' and wet and turn and it will Ferment, do that in a pot and cook it and boom! there is actually a Scholarly Journal Article on ethanol from straw, but it cost like $300 to fucking read! hmm! i wonder why?!


 Um, ok, don't take this the wrong way, you are kinda complaining to the wrong person. Also there is no such thing as a co2 sensor (on a car) you are referring to either an oxygen sensor or an air/fuel ratio sensor also known as a wideband oxygen sensor, and you do in fact need this to function correctly on your car, or you'll be ADDING carbon monoxide (deadly gas) to our atmosphere, not to mention prematurely wearing out your catalyst ($$$$$). Ironically you said you were afraid of carbon monoxide (as you should be) but a bad O2 sensor, my friend, and you are polluting the air with CO, I know you aren't doing it on purpose, but that's why we TEST cars for emissions, because if everybody had your car, we'd be choking and dying. Know what I mean?
This is a whole other debate, but if we all used ethanol, we'd be fucked, same with diesel, gasoline, hybrids, cng/lng and so on, the planet NEEDS us to have a broad source for our fossil fuels.
No hate from me, bud, i'm a pacifist. I know you didn't mean anything inflammatory, Just please don't say things that you may not fully understand. Especially on important issues like air quality, I take my job very seriously and if we didn't smog cars in CA, we'd be seriously very very screwed, like CHINA screwed. Go google smog in CA from the 70's and that's from faaaaaar less vehicles. No joke.


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## Scotch089 (Oct 3, 2014)

I just got a new truck and it's flexfuel capable, considered it. But the lack of stations that carry and the cut in mileage are not good incentives. I love the idea of taking my footprint away from pollution, power usage (LEDs bulbs in my entire house [and saving money DTR- 23w per bulb to 9w]), and making my own food (ROLS veggie garden), why do you say they mix the ethanols? I thought going green was the big sales pitch, what's the point if they are just dilluting it?


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 3, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> How'd the soil build go?


Bro i migrated for a short period of time & things didnt really go well although now im pretty settled, stleath missions took alot of time but things are looking great now.

I have 1/3 of perlite sitting in each 5 gallon pot, i have alfalfa/lucerne which im going to chop up in the morning, i have 2 x 0.6 cubic foot bags of earth worm castings & 3 x 0.6 cubic foot bags of peat, im guessing ill need more ewc though, i just started the 2nd stage of lacto b serum yesterday using raw milk,1 week & it should be complete! then i have my molasses, chicken poop, fish fertilizer to go with the serum for teas. i was wondering if you possibly use an air stone with your fish pump to oxygenate the water ? 

Got kandi kush,jack flash & church lined up but i have 4 pots, i was wondering if i should just do 3 pots or add in the other pot but i only have bag seed strains, i remember speaking to mad ham & he said i should watch out incase its not a hermie, ive grown out a micro plant in the garden from one of my seeds & it turned out pretty nice no signs of banana's although i know its from a outdoor genetic, the problem is the bagseed i got from the dank strains which were apparently "indoor" could be hermies & i dont remember if they had banana's although i do remember some strains had these tiny little undefined balls ? Possibly immature seeds but the heads didnt look too immature i dont think..


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## reasonevangelist (Oct 3, 2014)

Scotch089 said:


> I just got a new truck and it's flexfuel capable, considered it. But the lack of stations that carry and the cut in mileage are not good incentives. I love the idea of taking my footprint away from pollution, power usage (LEDs bulbs in my entire house [and saving money DTR- 23w per bulb to 9w]), and making my own food (ROLS veggie garden), why do you say they mix the ethanols? I thought going green was the big sales pitch, what's the point if they are just dilluting it?


The point, with all massive alarmist movements, is profit for those who can make the wrong solution seem like the right one. 

A carbon tax won't repair the planet, but it will definitely make a relatively small number of people extremely wealthy. The people who impose taxation, rarely ever fix anything. They're not going to take that money and clean up the world and make a bunch of helpful changes... they're going to spend it on their next mass-exploitation endeavor, as usual. 

"They" like to take (or cause) real problems, and then propose a very hyped solution from which they can profit obscenely. This is why i have a problem with the whole "climate change" buzz/movement. People don't control which cars are available for purchase, so why should those people pay a carbon tax? Regulate the manufacturers of pollutant products, so that they are required to adopt the best possible practices, and produce products which allow the consumer to make more ecologically safe choices, rather than penalizing the consumer (and not the manufacturer) for something over which they have zero control. Same goes for cannabis: stop penalizing people for supporting your competition, and convert your business to supply what your consumers prefer (i.e. cannabis over pharmaceuticals and/or alcohol). It's not my job to ensure the success of a business which funds my persecution, by "legally" extorting us all via taxation without representation, under duress, under penalty of unjust violence. If all the anti-cannabis "cannabis competitors" want to ensure their businesses remain profitable, they should stop creating enemies of, and eliminating, potential customers, and instead, provide a product those potential customers actually want. Those huge businesses have the ability to convert to what people actually want to buy, but instead, they use their regulatory capture "pull," to create laws enforced by violence and terrorism, in attempt to coerce us all into buying what they are already set up to supply... despite the fact that many of us have already discovered a significantly more appealing alternative to their inferior products. They're trying to force us to make them wealthy by criminalizing the competition and its supporters. It's completely fucked, and i'm not really sure how it has gotten so far out of hand, or how it can be corrected without a massive violent clash and many casualties. 

We don't all have to "get along," but i wish everyone would at least stop being terrible to each other. That would help quite a bit, i think, even if it doesn't fix everything. It sucks that so many people never have a chance to experience how much better life could be, if not for all the arbitrary detriment caused by people trying to siphon resources from as many people as possible. And it sucks that some of those same evil bastards are polluting the world without our consent, while trying to lobby for taxing us for what only they can control.


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## cannakis (Oct 3, 2014)

reasonevangelist said:


> The point, with all massive alarmist movements, is profit for those who can make the wrong solution seem like the right one.
> 
> A carbon tax won't repair the planet, but it will definitely make a relatively small number of people extremely wealthy. The people who impose taxation, rarely ever fix anything. They're not going to take that money and clean up the world and make a bunch of helpful changes... they're going to spend it on their next mass-exploitation endeavor, as usual.
> 
> ...


AMEN!!! Couldn't have said it better myself ReasonEvangilist, which I love the name, but you summarized Everything I was trying to say much more concisely. Thank You, and thank you for Actually understanding THE TRUTH!! And greasemonkey thanks for what you said let me understand more, though leaving fossel fuels would actually help stop us from being fucked, because they are just going to use it all up for profit, instead of treasuring it for the precious resource it is.


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 4, 2014)

Well said reasonevangelist ! Brilliant, manufacturers should be regulated for sure ! They can be making cars way more efficient than they are now & we should be using the oil we have now to make ways to get off of the oil. I heard a simple case of a truck from France transporting milk to Italy to make yoghurt then transported back to France for sale, that was an example that pissed me off & its only one of the many other ways people waste fuel besides being the worst of them all. I have my brothers girlfriend who comes to our place and thinks its completely normal to shower before bed & when she wakes up even though there has been water shortages in the area she couldnt give a shit because all she can watch is the bachelor on TV, a big problem we also have today is the media addicting people to useless information, if people were getting fed information that actually matters today it would be way different, im not saying we should sacrifice all entertainment but we definitely living in a time where we need more ideas instead of people just getting brainwashed. Im sure you can all agree on that ! 

I wish my school had permaculture for classes ! ! ! I wish all schools had it ! i wish all schools had many more options & interesting things.


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## smokey the cat (Oct 4, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I wish my school had permaculture for classes ! ! ! I wish all schools had it ! i wish all schools had many more options & interesting things.


Bro I wonder how good school would be compared to what we have right here. Yeah, they'd give you more access to journal articles, but on the whole I'm blown away by what I've been able to glean from these ROLS threads.

Easily surpasses any 100 level paper I reckon. Insane amounts of info - especially reading MicrobeMan's reading suggestions in the linked icymag thread.

Finally shit on forums is matching the science I still remember from high school. And it's science, like actual facts and stuff - not bullshit recycled from idiots. Plant and soil biology is the shit, and it's all here for the taking, amazing.

This is the future - we're the first generation to read the collected knowledge of all of humanity at once. Just gotta keep sorting the wheat from the chaff.


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 4, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Bro I wonder how good school would be compared to what we have right here. Yeah, they'd give you more access to journal articles, but on the whole I'm blown away by what I've been able to glean from these ROLS threads.
> 
> Easily surpasses any 100 level paper I reckon. Insane amounts of info - especially reading MicrobeMan's reading suggestions in the linked icymag thread.
> 
> ...


I also wonder how they would be although i can think of plenty of other things to implement into there ! 

There's insane information on these forums, people dont understand the power that lies here you're 100% right.

Well said, we are the generation that has got all collected knowledge of all humanity at once, brilliant dude


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 4, 2014)

cannakis said:


> AMEN!!! Couldn't have said it better myself ReasonEvangilist, which I love the name, but you summarized Everything I was trying to say much more concisely. Thank You, and thank you for Actually understanding THE TRUTH!! And greasemonkey thanks for what you said let me understand more, though leaving fossel fuels would actually help stop us from being fucked, because they are just going to use it all up for profit, instead of treasuring it for the precious resource it is.


 you are welcome, I hope you understand I wasn't trying to call you out or be aggressive in any way. More often than not, automobiles are simply not completely understood, and compound that with the crappy reputations that shady mechanics have and you have some trust issues. You see, for my business I don't advertise, I barely have a phone book listing, I rely solely on word-of-mouth, well, and yelp has helped (although I don't approve of the website, kinda like gangsters...) Anyways, point is, I find it extremely important to explain exactly what parts/services are needed and why, in my experience with people I've discovered that showing them WHY and HOW will make it more likely for them to approve of the repair, it's 100% on the service manager to do that, you can have the best auto tech in the world but if he has a crappy service manager it won't be sold, and the vehicle/customer will be neglected.
Point being, whenever you had your car checked at some point it was brought to your attention that you needed an o2 sensor, that is the time when it should have been explained to you WHY you needed it, and then, from the feel I get from you (seem to be socially responsible) you would have replaced that faulty O2 then. That's my point.
I agree with you, if we could leave fossil fuels alone we'd be better off, but that simply isn't possible at all.
That's like saying the world would be better off with 4.5 billion people instead of 7 billion, that's true, in fact I read somewhere that's the "magic" number for the planet, we can in theory sustain life with 4.5 billion people.... as opposed to slowly (maybe not so slow after all) we are killing ourselves.
whew... Saturday-morning-too-much-coffee-no-pot-rant.... sorry fellas


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## Pattahabi (Oct 4, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> whew... Saturday-morning-too-much-coffee-*no-pot-rant.*... sorry fellas


Easy way to fix that big dawg! Burn em down!!!



Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 4, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Easy way to fix that big dawg! Burn em down!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 amen to that, but I had to open shop today, so i'm stuck down here.... In t-minus two hours, we'll have lift-off. Some freshly cured querkle! Gotta love the first couple smokes from a harvest, now if only somebody would trim the way I want them to....


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## cannakis (Oct 4, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Easy way to fix that big dawg! Burn em down!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hahaha yes sir! and from bud grown with these great recipes (receipts) is extra rewarding.!


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## cannakis (Oct 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Read this for a different outlook on tilling and organic gardening.
> 
> 
> P-


Awesome I Just saw this, thanks so much! I can't read it open it on my phone hopefully it will on my computer.

But question, if I did not ask... How do you know when to waterif you never let dry out using mulch?


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 5, 2014)

We can get off fossil fuels, the only problem is all the money is going to bullshit like military,wars & bullshit that profit the 1%.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 6, 2014)

cannakis said:


> Awesome I Just saw this, thanks so much! I can't read it open it on my phone hopefully it will on my computer.
> 
> But question, if I did not ask... How do you know when to waterif you never let dry out using mulch?


Not an easy question. It's one of those things you will have to kind of figure out. I would stick my finger in the top soil, stick my finger in the drainage holes. Feel how wet it is. Then if the bottom is wet, but top is getting a little dry, just mist the top layer. If it needs more add it. If you see a little run off, hey, maybe that was a little too much. 


Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Not an easy question. It's one of those things you will have to kind of figure out. I would stick my finger in the top soil, stick my finger in the drainage holes. Feel how wet it is. Then if the bottom is wet, but top is getting a little dry, just mist the top layer. If it needs more add it. If you see a little run off, hey, maybe that was a little too much.
> 
> 
> Peace!
> P-


does anybody know if dandelions or comfrey/ nettles etc, needs to be dried prior to soaking in a tea? or is it better fresh? My gut says fresh, after all veggies are more nutritious fresh, but i'm making it into a rotting slimey stinky tea anyways so im not sure, and I searched the entire internet and they all say to let it ferment for weeks, is this the only way to do this? and I also couldn't find out how MUCH to put in a in relation to the water, like a cup of minced dandelion per gallon or two cups, do I use the roots too, flowers? Hmm maybe I should start a thread about this, but i'm quoting you, pattahabi, since you have taught me the most regarding the subject of teas.
can I overdose? is it the same amounts for the comfrey as the dandelion and the nettles? whats the NPK? argh, I have so many questions!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> does anybody know if dandelions or comfrey/ nettles etc, needs to be dried prior to soaking in a tea? or is it better fresh? My gut says fresh, after all veggies are more nutritious fresh, but i'm making it into a rotting slimey stinky tea anyways so im not sure, and I searched the entire internet and they all say to let it ferment for weeks, is this the only way to do this? and I also couldn't find out how MUCH to put in a in relation to the water, like a cup of minced dandelion per gallon or two cups, do I use the roots too, flowers? Hmm maybe I should start a thread about this, but i'm quoting you, pattahabi, since you have taught me the most regarding the subject of teas.
> can I overdose? is it the same amounts for the comfrey as the dandelion and the nettles? whats the NPK? argh, I have so many questions!


Hey Grease! My only experience is using them dried. However, I would think it would be as good or better fresh. Maybe someone will chime in that has used it fresh. I'll look and see what I can't dig up.

Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey Grease! My only experience is using them dried. However, I would think it would be as good or better fresh. Maybe someone will chime in that has used it fresh. I'll look and see what I can't dig up.
> 
> Peace!
> P-


thank you, I've been scouring the internet for like a week straight, I have a BUNCH of dandelion and a good amount of comfrey as well. I've found four different internet sources on using the herbs as a nutrient but none of them say how MUCH, nor do they say if I have to make the tea an-aerobic, honestly i'd like to use the tea with some molasses and some fresh EWC, but I don't know if the tea and the AACT will "get along" according to tim the microbe guy sometimes AACTs react badly with other additives, i'm thinking to make them separate.
But is dandelion as potent as comfrey? or Nettles? I just don't know how much I should pack the initial tea with. right now its half full of comfrey and dandelion, and its already turning mushy-black-brownish. Some say dilute to a 15/1 other to 5/1, I guess I should just try on my own, I have some lavender/jasmine and some bamboo that has a similar appetite to my cannabis plants, maybe I'll try to feed them to see if they respond.
that's my back-up plan, always try on the plants you can replace easier


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## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> thank you, I've been scouring the internet for like a week straight, I have a BUNCH of dandelion and a good amount of comfrey as well. I've found four different internet sources on using the herbs as a nutrient but none of them say how MUCH, nor do they say if I have to make the tea an-aerobic, honestly i'd like to use the tea with some molasses and some fresh EWC, but I don't know if the tea and the AACT will "get along" according to tim the microbe guy sometimes AACTs react badly with other additives, i'm thinking to make them separate.
> But is dandelion as potent as comfrey? or Nettles? I just don't know how much I should pack the initial tea with. right now its half full of comfrey and dandelion, and its already turning mushy-black-brownish. Some say dilute to a 15/1 other to 5/1, I guess I should just try on my own, I have some lavender/jasmine and some bamboo that has a similar appetite to my cannabis plants, maybe I'll try to feed them to see if they respond.
> that's my back-up plan, always try on the plants you can replace easier


I'm going to pose your question to some people far more knowledgeable about this. I'll get back to you as soon as I find something out.

One thing I can tell you is both dandelions and comfrey are dynamic accumulators. Basically, their tap roots travel deep into the earth, pull nutrients and minerals up to the leaves, and stores them there. What this gives us is very nutrient dense plant material.


Peace!
P-


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 8, 2014)

I would also say using it fresh is better from what ive heard, i wouldnt think the flower or the root should do any harm at all, think about it in nature everything will get used up, id just do they comfrey and dandelion together, i really doubt it should be anaerobic, probably good to keep it somewhere where it doesnt get too much sun & keep a lid where some air can enter/escape. id probably do 2 parts of water to 1 part of material & let it ferment but i might be estimating too much material, i guess you will have to dilute according to how potent you think it is, try 15/1 on some plants, best way is just to try it out but whenever you dont come across something online its because usually its not that complicated at all although i understand you trying to get the best out of it. I have been reading about permaculture etc so i have come across this, however mixing soil for pots & weed aint my strong point at the moment lol. Peace


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 8, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> does anybody know if dandelions or comfrey/ nettles etc, needs to be dried prior to soaking in a tea? or is it better fresh? My gut says fresh, after all veggies are more nutritious fresh, but i'm making it into a rotting slimey stinky tea anyways so im not sure, and I searched the entire internet and they all say to let it ferment for weeks, is this the only way to do this? and I also couldn't find out how MUCH to put in a in relation to the water, like a cup of minced dandelion per gallon or two cups, do I use the roots too, flowers? Hmm maybe I should start a thread about this, but i'm quoting you, pattahabi, since you have taught me the most regarding the subject of teas.
> can I overdose? is it the same amounts for the comfrey as the dandelion and the nettles? whats the NPK? argh, I have so many questions!



https://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346


.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

@greasemonkeymann

Bluejay says he mulches with it, which is typically what I would do with fresh plant matter. 

This is the response from Coot. I can definitely give you application rates if you want to add fulvic, aloe, silica, etc.



> Patanjali
> 
> 1/2 cup of dandelion and by that I mean you crush and stuff the leaves - add this to a food processor or an Osterizer and make a puree. Add this with enough water to make 1 gallon.
> 
> ...


Hope that helps!

Peace!
P-


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 8, 2014)

Makes me want to go dandelion hunting ! Id definitely be keen to get the applications rates for aloe pattahabi, at the moment i have some lacto b made with some good raw milk, should be done on friday, ill be adding some of the lacto b, molasses, fish fert & chicken poop into a tea this weekend to give my organisms a boost while the pots wait for the transplants.


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I'm going to pose your question to some people far more knowledgeable about this. I'll get back to you as soon as I find something out.
> 
> One thing I can tell you is both dandelions and comfrey are dynamic accumulators. Basically, their tap roots travel deep into the earth, pull nutrients and minerals up to the leaves, and stores them there. What this gives us is very nutrient dense plant material.
> 
> ...


 so following that logic, i'd say it's crucial to get the roots from these plants?


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> https://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346
> 
> 
> .


 yup, this was one of the four spots on the net that had it, but no info on specific NPK, or on whether to bubble or not. That is actually the first place I saw this info from, before RIU even.


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> @greasemonkeymann
> 
> Bluejay says he mulches with it, which is typically what I would do with fresh plant matter.
> 
> ...


 this is GREAT, thank you, I was primarily interested in the silica that is in the dandelion, I would love to make a nice natural silica foliar spray for my ladies. I'd really like to see if I could wean off some of the other products I use, I already ditched the cloning gel for aloe a while ago (should have done that YEARS ago)


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 8, 2014)

Grease monkey do you use those fruit mesh bags to hold your material ?


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Grease monkey do you use those fruit mesh bags to hold your material ?


 nah, I just throw it all in there, I have a really beefy new air pump that froths my bucket like crazy, if I need to strain it (I usually don't) I run it through a bucket with a crappy t-shirt over top for a filter.
Honestly I never use a bag, my pump agitates the water like crazy and I don't think it's needed. Course I could be overlooking something...
right now I just have a jar filled with comfrey and dandelion, when I get home i'm gonna throw it in my big tea bucket, and bubble away


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

man, you shouldn't have to look far, those things are EVERYWHERE! I just gotta find a nettle patch now, I got the comfrey and dandelion covered, I had a place where a patch of nettles were, but the drought killed em...
oops that was supposed to be quoting southern soil, in regards to him looking for dandelions...


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## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> so following that logic, i'd say it's crucial to get the roots from these plants?


Honestly, I would use the leaves, but I'm assuming there is benefit in all parts? I have dried kelp, alfalfa, comfrey on hand, so that is what I usually use in my teas. And again, with that said, I top dress it more then tea.



greasemonkeymann said:


> this is GREAT, thank you, I was primarily interested in the silica that is in the dandelion, I would love to make a nice natural silica foliar spray for my ladies. I'd really like to see if I could wean off some of the other products I use, I already ditched the cloning gel for aloe a while ago (should have done that YEARS ago)


You are most welcome! In the past I've looked into ditching the silica bottle and trying to use horsetail, etc. I've kind of given up on that for now. Foliars I go with pro-tekt, but I would love to hear what you find out.


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Honestly, I would use the leaves, but I'm assuming there is benefit in all parts? I have dried kelp, alfalfa, comfrey on hand, so that is what I usually use in my teas. And again, with that said, I top dress it more then tea.
> 
> 
> You are most welcome! In the past I've looked into ditching the silica bottle and trying to use horsetail, etc. I've kind of given up on that for now. Foliars I go with pro-tekt, but I would love to hear what you find out.


 yeah, I haven't used ANY plants for a topdress, well minus mulch of course, but as a supplement? No. But on that note, i'll try it on my next flowering run and see if it does anything noticeable, maybe I won't feed the plant that I topdress with and see if any deficiencies arise .. I usually only feed once or twice anyways.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Makes me want to go dandelion hunting ! Id definitely be keen to get the applications rates for aloe pattahabi, at the moment i have some lacto b made with some good raw milk, should be done on friday, ill be adding some of the lacto b, molasses, fish fert & chicken poop into a tea this weekend to give my organisms a boost while the pots wait for the transplants.


Hey SS! Aloe - fresh juice add 1-2 oz per gallon, 200x powder use 1/4tsp per gallon. If you are using liquid be careful of anything else added - especially sodium benzoate.

I love the Lacto b idea! The only thing I would be careful about is what you are mixing the bacteria with. I might consider adding the fish fert and chicken poop at another time.

Also, if anyone has not tried either an SST I would highly advise this! Best thing that has happened to my garden in a long time!


Peace!
P-


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## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yeah, I haven't used ANY plants for a topdress, well minus mulch of course, but as a supplement? No. But on that note, i'll try it on my next flowering run and see if it does anything noticeable, maybe I won't feed the plant that I topdress with and see if any deficiencies arise .. I usually only feed once or twice anyways.


Can I ask what you are currently using as a mulch? I have lots of stick, leaves, etc. So I just throw the plant material in with the mulch. It very quickly gets consumed by the soil. In fact last night I found the 3" of vermicompost I added is now a solid brick of roots. I added another top dress on a few plants; as much as I had material for anyway!

P-


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Oct 8, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> nah, I just throw it all in there, I have a really beefy new air pump that froths my bucket like crazy, if I need to strain it (I usually don't) I run it through a bucket with a crappy t-shirt over top for a filter.
> Honestly I never use a bag, my pump agitates the water like crazy and I don't think it's needed. Course I could be overlooking something...
> right now I just have a jar filled with comfrey and dandelion, when I get home i'm gonna throw it in my big tea bucket, and bubble away


Should be good with that pump then man, the tshirt trick sounds good, ill keep that in mind, i was even thinking if it would be beneficial to try strap the bag right in the middle in my case of having a smaller pump, id love to look around, there was a load of stuff in my neighbours yard although they cleaned that out, ill have to search a few places outside my place, living in a shitty concrete jungle at the moment. Peace : )


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey SS! Aloe - fresh juice add 1-2 oz per gallon, 200x powder use 1/4tsp per gallon. If you are using liquid be careful of anything else added - especially sodium benzoate.
> 
> I love the Lacto b idea! The only thing I would be careful about is what you are mixing the bacteria with. I might consider adding the fish fert and chicken poop at another time.
> 
> ...


Thank you bro, will take a look around & keep an eye for any bullshit ingredients ! Adding the fish fert and the chicken poop at another time sounds better you right, i rate just lacto B & Molasses should do perfect ? 

Will read up more on SST's, thanks for all the tips bro : ) Respect


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Also, if anyone has not tried either an SST I would highly advise this! Best thing that has happened to my garden in a long time!
> 
> 
> Peace!
> P-


Huh. I wonder if I was sprouting wrong or something. I didn't notice a lick of difference with my plants using SST's or not.


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Huh. I wonder if I was sprouting wrong or something. I didn't notice a lick of difference with my plants using SST's or not.


Stow, what seeds were you using, and what was your process, etc?

The SST's have made a huge difference in my garden. I'm definitely seeing better water uptake, more turgosity, increased resin production, etc.

Grape Stomper OG - day 30


Peace!
P-


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 8, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Stow, what seeds were you using, and what was your process, etc?
> 
> The SST's have made a huge difference in my garden. I'm definitely seeing better water uptake, more turgosity, increased resin production, etc.
> 
> ...


Mainly alfalfa seeds. The chia seeds sprouted but they were a gooey mess.

I would soak them for 12 hours in a paint straing bag, discard that water, give the seeds a rinse and then bubble them for another 24 hours or until I had a 1/4" sprout and then purée and add to plain water as a soil drench.

There were no negative side effects that I observed, but nothing positive that I noticed either.


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 8, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Mainly alfalfa seeds. The chia seeds sprouted but they were a gooey mess.
> 
> I would soak them for 12 hours in a paint straing bag, discard that water, give the seeds a rinse and then bubble them for another 24 hours or until I had a 1/4" sprout and then purée and add to plain water as a soil drench.
> 
> There were no negative side effects that I observed, but nothing positive that I noticed either.


Lmao Stow, I just read this on another site:



> Chia seeds have what is called a mucilaginous coat and when water hits that it forms a 'glop' and if it dries? Good luck with that. Plant mucilage was used as glue (which it is) for 400 years before glue products arrived on the scene. It was used for postage stamps, book binding, etc. The man who brought comfrey to the forefront in 19th Century England, Henry Doubleday, had a business that removed mucilage from comfrey leaves and became quite wealthy from his glues.
> 
> I personally don't think it's possible because even the sprouted seeds for people websites have some pretty convoluted instructions that don't play well with the concept of malting a grain.
> 
> ...


I have tried 2 tbsp per 5 gallon on the alfalfa seeds with excellent results. Wheat seeds I go more like 1/2c per 5 gallons. How are you sprouting them? And are you pureeing and straining?

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Lmao Stow, I just read this on another site:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


After the rinse I was leaving the seeds in a paint straining bag and bubbling a couple gallons of water (with the seeds in there) for 24'ish hours until 1/4" sprouts emerged. Then I pureed them and added that to a few gallons of water for a soil drench.

I read about the soak, rest, soak, rest way of doing it but that seemed like a pain in the nuts. Was I doing it wrong??


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Oct 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Can I ask what you are currently using as a mulch? I have lots of stick, leaves, etc. So I just throw the plant material in with the mulch. It very quickly gets consumed by the soil. In fact last night I found the 3" of vermicompost I added is now a solid brick of roots. I added another top dress on a few plants; as much as I had material for anyway!
> 
> P-


 I use old cannabis sunleaves, oak tree leaves, redwood forest moss (wish I could be more specific, it's the moss that grows on redwood trees), igrind that all up a lil, I have a blower that doubles as a mulcher (works damn good) and then I empty the contents on my pile, and presto months later it's nice foresty-smelling mulch, I do it mostly to retain the water and get the roots as close to the soil surface as possible.


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey SS! Aloe - fresh juice add 1-2 oz per gallon, 200x powder use 1/4tsp per gallon. If you are using liquid be careful of anything else added - especially sodium benzoate.
> 
> I love the Lacto b idea! The only thing I would be careful about is what you are mixing the bacteria with. I might consider adding the fish fert and chicken poop at another time.
> 
> ...


 one thing to add is make sure you use the aloe-tea almost immediately.
I can say that my dahlia tree and my French lavender (both VERY rootbound) responded within 2-3 days after an AACT tea and later an SST application, they both have grown over 6 cm in three weeks, I haven't used the SSTs on any flowering plants yet. I just harvested my outdoor plants. I have to wait another two weeks before my flower room is free, its chock full of purple paralysis and grapegod flowers


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 9, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> After the rinse I was leaving the seeds in a paint straining bag and bubbling a couple gallons of water (with the seeds in there) for 24'ish hours until 1/4" sprouts emerged. Then I pureed them and added that to a few gallons of water for a soil drench.
> 
> I read about the soak, rest, soak, rest way of doing it but that seemed like a pain in the nuts. Was I doing it wrong??


Stow, this sounds pretty much like how I do it. As Grease said, and I'm sure you know, make sure you use it immediately. I'm puzzled you didn't notice a difference, especially with alfalfa seeds. I'll have to ask about this, you are the first person I have heard that did not see a rapid response. 


Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Stow, this sounds pretty much like how I do it. As Grease said, and I'm sure you know, make sure you use it immediately. I'm puzzled you didn't notice a difference, especially with alfalfa seeds. I'll have to ask about this, you are the first person I have heard that did not see a rapid response.
> 
> 
> Peace!
> P-


maybe it's possible stows setup is in good shape? I've literally only made two SST batches, but for me I used it on plants (non-cannabis) that had *visible* problems, so for me I was more trying it as a stress reduction/remedy for the issues I was having, I have a lot of great plants in containers (I rent, so I don't wanna put them in ground) so like I said, the sad unhappy plants showed a marked profound difference in health, so maybe it's just harder to see a difference on a healthy plant? I don't know?
the vegging plants I used it on, look beautiful, but they didn't have any issues to start with...


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## Pattahabi (Oct 9, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> maybe it's possible stows setup is in good shape? I've literally only made two SST batches, but for me I used it on plants (non-cannabis) that had *visible* problems, so for me I was more trying it as a stress reduction/remedy for the issues I was having, I have a lot of great plants in containers (I rent, so I don't wanna put them in ground) so like I said, the sad unhappy plants showed a marked profound difference in health, so maybe it's just harder to see a difference on a healthy plant? I don't know?
> the vegging plants I used it on, look beautiful, but they didn't have any issues to start with...


Grease, this is very possible. If leaves are praying, they are praying. I would think one would still notice an increase in vigor and resin production, however, I'm often wrong.

I'd certainly be interested if others have not not noticed a difference with SST's.

P-


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> , however, I'm often wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Oct 9, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Grease, this is very possible. If leaves are praying, they are praying. I would think one would still notice an increase in vigor and resin production, however, I'm often wrong.
> 
> I'd certainly be interested if others have not not noticed a difference with SST's.
> 
> P-


well, for resin production, i'll let ya know in a lil bit, I am flowering some ladies, and half of them are my mainstays (jack herer, and blue dream) I've grown those two for years and years, so I know EXACTLY what they are capable of, both inside and outside, so I think i'll get a good feeling on any differences, subtle or not. From what I've seen on just my French lavender, jasmines, and my dahlias, the SSTs work damn good.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 10, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> well, for resin production, i'll let ya know in a lil bit, I am flowering some ladies, and half of them are my mainstays (jack herer, and blue dream) I've grown those two for years and years, so I know EXACTLY what they are capable of, both inside and outside, so I think i'll get a good feeling on any differences, subtle or not. From what I've seen on just my French lavender, jasmines, and my dahlias, the SSTs work damn good.


Grease, there is certainly something to be said for growing the same strain over and over. Differences in your environment/techniques are quickly obvious. I really noticed a difference growing my herbs in a living soil and giving them leftover sst's. My rosemary was actually sticky to the touch.
Gotta like it when you can take a hit at 4:20am and pm lmao! I suppose I had better get to bed. 

Peace!
P-


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## DonPetro (Oct 10, 2014)

My rosemary loves the LOS. Very fragrant and greasy indeed. And my italian oregeno is making a strong comeback. Hopefully wont have a problem over-wintering them. They could use some better light than the 23w cfl they are under now but i'm working on that.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 10, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> My rosemary loves the LOS. Very fragrant and greasy indeed. And my italian oregeno is making a strong comeback. Hopefully wont have a problem over-wintering them. They could use some better light than the 23w cfl they are under now but i'm working on that.


Don, isn't it amazing how much more flavor and smell comes out of the living soil? I had never seen rosemary grow like that.

P-


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## DonPetro (Oct 10, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Don, isn't it amazing how much more flavor and smell comes out of the living soil? I had never seen rosemary grow like that.
> 
> P-


Oh, bro...it is amazing! Just have to touch it and it stickies up the fingers.


----------



## smokey the cat (Oct 11, 2014)

So I'm playing with a cheap aquarium airpump and a couple of airstones - trying to make a aerated compost brew.

I have a small bucket with ~6 litres (1.5g) of dechlorinated water. Added a handful of fresh fluffy compost from the bottom of my bin.

For feeding the microbes I have a teaspoon of liquid blood and bone, a pinch of an organic kelp-fish-rockdust meal and a teaspoon of molasses. Just the stuff I have in the cupboard.

I've been aerating this for about 4 hours so far, and am not seeing any foam. Nice dark colour, but not foaming.


Is this normal? First tea brew and just feeling it out.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 11, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> So I'm playing with a cheap aquarium airpump and a couple of airstones - trying to make a aerated compost brew.
> 
> I have a small bucket with ~6 litres (1.5g) of dechlorinated water. Added a handful of fresh fluffy compost from the bottom of my bin.
> 
> ...


Hi Smokey,

Real quick: next time leave out the blood and bone, and really everything except the EWC, molasses and water. You do not want foam on your brew. Usually a few drops of fish hydrol will take care of this (foam slows gas exchange). Generally, you would bubble 36-42 hours.

Peace!
P-


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## Pattahabi (Oct 11, 2014)

*Plants Can Hear Themselves Being Eaten, and Can Communicate the Threat *
*FULL ARTICLE (recommended)*

*How Plants Communicate*

As mentioned earlier, plants also communicate with other plants—even with plants of other species—through a complex underground network that includes:


The plants' rhizosphere (root ball)
Aerial emissions (volatile gasses emitted by the plants)
Mycelial networks in the soil

These three systems work together forming a "plant internet," if you will, where information about each plant's status is constantly exchanged. One of the organisms responsible for this amazing biochemical highway is a type of fungus called mycorrhizae.

The name mycorrhiza literally means fungus root.4 These fungi form a symbiotic relationship with the plant, colonizing the roots and sending extremely fine filaments far out into the soil that act as root extensions_. _
Not only do these networks sound the alarm about invaders, but the filaments are more effective in nutrient and water absorption than the plant roots themselves—mycorrhizae increase the nutrient absorption of the plant 100 to 1,000 times.5

In one thimbleful of healthy soil, you can find several MILES of fungal filaments, all releasing powerful enzymes that help dissolve tightly bound soil nutrients, such as organic nitrogen, phosphorus, and iron.
This is one of the major reasons why tilling the soil is deleterious to gardening or farming as it damages these fragile fungal filaments. The last thing any gardener or farmer should be doing is tilling the soil. 

That is one of the reasons why wood chips are so useful as they not only eliminate tilling but effectively feeds the fungi. One of the best things you can do for your garden is to put a four inch layer of wood chips (not bark) around your plants to encourage this fungal growth and attract earthworms so they can create vermicompost.


Peace!
P-


----------



## AllenHaze (Oct 11, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2099/12/31/plant-communication.aspx?e_cid=20140823Z1_DNL_artTest_A5&utm_source=dnl&utm_medium=email&utm_content=artTest_A5&utm_campaign=20140823Z1&et_cid=DM54172&et_rid=632986663
> 
> Hope that one works. The other one is broken.
> 
> ...


----------



## smokey the cat (Oct 11, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hi Smokey,
> 
> Real quick: next time leave out the blood and bone, and really everything except the EWC, molasses and water. You do not want foam on your brew. Usually a few drops of fish hydrol will take care of this (foam slows gas exchange). Generally, you would bubble 36-42 hours.
> 
> ...


Chur bro. Compost and molasses I can handle - sounds like less _is more_ folks 

Hard to find anything marketed as fish hydrosylate on this corner of the globe. Though I think I've seen some cold-processed semi-fermented liquid fish fert before - which sounds something like a product of hydrosylis.


----------



## hyroot (Oct 11, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> *Plants Can Hear Themselves Being Eaten, and Can Communicate the Threat *
> *FULL ARTICLE (recommended)*
> 
> *How Plants Communicate*
> ...


there's a documentary on Netflix calle what plants talk about. It was on there 2 years ago. So I don't know if its still on the online Netflix via Xbox, smart tv, ps4 etc.. It should at least be viewable from a computer.


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 11, 2014)

hyroot said:


> there's a documentary on Netflix calle what plants talk about. It was on there 2 years ago. So I don't know if its still on the online Netflix via Xbox, smart tv, ps4 etc.. It should at least be viewable from a computer.


Nice one dude ! Im already watching


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## hyroot (Oct 11, 2014)

^^^^ on hulu theres a good documentary called Dirt. It might be on you tube as well.


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 11, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> *Plants Can Hear Themselves Being Eaten, and Can Communicate the Threat *
> *FULL ARTICLE (recommended)*
> 
> *How Plants Communicate*
> ...



Amazing


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 11, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Chur bro. Compost and molasses I can handle - *sounds like less is more folks*
> 
> Hard to find anything marketed as fish hydrosylate on this corner of the globe. Though I think I've seen some cold-processed semi-fermented liquid fish fert before - which sounds something like a product of hydrosylis.


That is exactly my philosophy, and this is why; when you have less in, then when you add something or make a change you have a much better idea of what is going on. If you start adding some laundry list of amendments you have no idea.

Kelp has 83 elements, 70 microelements, alginic acid, mannitol, auxins, gibberellins, etc. If you had a good humus source, and a well built soil, kelp alone would grow some amazing plants. Now add some rock dust, neem meal - another nutrient accumulator along with added pest deterring benefits, maybe some crab meal - calcium, chitin, etc. How much more do you really need?

But hey, if a hydrostore can sell you 17 boxes of different amendments (been there) they can almost make as much as they do on the white shark mycos crap. 

Sad but true...

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 11, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> That is exactly my philosophy, and this is why; when you have less in, then when you add something or make a change you have a much better idea of what is going on. If you start adding some laundry list of amendments you have no idea.
> 
> Kelp has 83 elements, 70 microelements, alginic acid, mannitol, auxins, gibberellins, etc. If you had a good humus source, and a well built soil, kelp alone would grow some amazing plants. Now add some rock dust, neem meal - another nutrient accumulator along with added pest deterring benefits, maybe some crab meal - calcium, chitin, etc. How much more do you really need?
> 
> ...



Truth. I'm really digging the simplistic approach. Shedding the bottle-feeding mentality has been a journey. I still have to resist the urge to tinker. I've got my soil amendments down to 6 items, and have cut everything else out save for silica, fish hydrolysate, and the occasional compost tea. My plants haven't looked better


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## smokey the cat (Oct 12, 2014)

Talking about silica -



I've been thinking about getting some agsil 16H. Seems like a really fun product to play with for the whole garden. 


What dosage do you use, and how frequently do you dose with it? 
Most of the dose intructions are how to replicate Protekt - to mix Agsil into a contcentrated solution requiring further dilution before application.
What dosage do you use if you want to use Agsil directly - how many mill per litre?

Any risks from over doing things?


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## DonPetro (Oct 12, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Truth. I'm really digging the simplistic approach. Shedding the bottle-feeding mentality has been a journey. I still have to resist the urge to tinker. I've got my soil amendments down to 6 items, and have cut everything else out save for silica, fish hydrolysate, and the occasional compost tea. My plants haven't looked better


St0w...do you have journal? I would love to check out your garden.


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 12, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> St0w...do you have journal? I would love to check out your garden.


I don't. I just spam the forum with random pics. 

Here's one Im rocking in a coco coir base. Female Seeds C-99 6 weeks 12/12.



Grape stomper cross
 

Group shot


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## DonPetro (Oct 12, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't. I just spam the forum with random pics.
> 
> Here's one Im rocking in a coco coir base. Female Seeds C-99 6 weeks 12/12.
> 
> ...


Looking amazing!


----------



## CannaBare (Oct 12, 2014)

Does anyone here use blumats? I am thinking of buying some but I can not figure out if I should get the maxi or two medium sized. My pot is a homemade smartpot 12 in diameter and 12 inch high. It holds about 5 gallons. I could really use help from someone with experience.

Thanks!


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## DonPetro (Oct 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't. I just spam the forum with random pics.
> 
> Here's one Im rocking in a coco coir base. Female Seeds C-99 6 weeks 12/12.
> 
> ...


Can you expand a little on what your base consists of and the type and amount of amendments you're using? Also, what size containers are those ladies in? They look extremely healthy. Im looking to reduce my amount of inputs and stick to plant and mineral based elements. Much respect, brother!


----------



## Tazbud (Oct 13, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Does anyone here use blumats? I am thinking of buying some but I can not figure out if I should get the maxi or two medium sized. My pot is a homemade smartpot 12 in diameter and 12 inch high. It holds about 5 gallons. I could really use help from someone with experience.
> 
> Thanks!


Medium will do, iv'e had no problems in different pots (inc airpots and large tubs) around that depth with good moisture at depth, with coco or coco based soil. And even one medium carrot would do at 12" wide (moisture to the edge). I like blumats, there is a very cheap copy (I have two to try) but just bought another dozen direct from tropf-blumat for my strawberry house for some lazy auto- strawberries!



those do look ridiculously healthy stOwandgrow wow!


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 13, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Can you expand a little on what your base consists of and the type and amount of amendments you're using? Also, what size containers are those ladies in? They look extremely healthy. Im looking to reduce my amount of inputs and stick to plant and mineral based elements. Much respect, brother!



Yeah, you bet DP.

I'm using 1/3 peat (coco coir for the C-99 pictured above), 1/3 home made EWC, and 1/3 aeration bits (usually rice hulls). To that I'm adding 1/2 cup per cf of the following: Crab shell meal, neem seed meal, kelp meal, and alfalfa meal. Then I add 3 cups per cf of mixed rock dusts (usually basalt and granite) and 1 cup per cf of oyster shell flour. That's it. Everything else has been cut out. Those plants pictured above were grown in recycled soil in "#7" plastic containers. I've been finding that I get 3-4 good runs of no-till from those buckets before they peter out a bit. I've recently upgraded to #10 buckets looking to get another run or two out of them. I'm also planning on swapping out the peat for leaf mold once I have enough ready.....

This mix gives me pretty much a water-only soil. I water 3-4 times a week, and one of those waterings each week I will do either a silica/aloe drench, compost tea, or fish hydrolysate. When I water with one of the above I'm also doing a foliar application of the same up to 3 weeks of flower.

After harvest I top dress the above inputs at 1/4 the amount initially used mixed in with EWC, and then I lay down a cover crop of clovers, vetch, etc. These buckets are set off to the side of my veg room for 3 weeks in fallow, and then a new clone is plugged right back in. Rinse-repeat


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 13, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Talking about silica -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry smokey, I missed this post. I actually use Pro-tekt so I won't be much help for agisil mixing instructions. I've had this little bottle of Pro-tekt forever, but when I run out I'm planning on looking at either Agisil or a dynamic accumulator like horsetail.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Oct 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yeah, you bet DP.
> 
> I'm using 1/3 peat (coco coir for the C-99 pictured above), 1/3 home made EWC, and 1/3 aeration bits (usually rice hulls). To that I'm adding 1/2 cup per cf of the following: Crab shell meal, neem seed meal, kelp meal, and alfalfa meal. Then I add 3 cups per cf of mixed rock dusts (usually basalt and granite) and 1 cup per cf of oyster shell flour. That's it. Everything else has been cut out. Those plants pictured above were grown in recycled soil in "#7" plastic containers. I've been finding that I get 3-4 good runs of no-till from those buckets before they peter out a bit. I've recently upgraded to #10 buckets looking to get another run or two out of them. I'm also planning on swapping out the peat for leaf mold once I have enough ready.....
> 
> ...


 GOOD stuff, this is a GREAT example of keeping it relatively simple but yet having absolutely optimal results, good job my friend! I want that C99.... oh man.


----------



## DonPetro (Oct 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't. I just spam the forum with random pics.
> 
> Here's one Im rocking in a coco coir base. Female Seeds C-99 6 weeks 12/12.
> 
> ...


Have you grown the c99 before? Are the smells and flavors really as amazing as they say? How is the smoke? Also, st0w, your yields are looking great...what would you say is the biggest contributor to a heavy harvest when growing all-natural?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> GOOD stuff, this is a GREAT example of keeping it relatively simple but yet having absolutely optimal results, good job my friend! I want that C99.... oh man.


Thanks Grease! That C-99 is from Female Seeds. I bought 10 but only popped 2 of them to start, and they are identical clones of one another. Very stable line. I'll put them under a scope before I chop, but they are looking to be ready by next weekend IMO. 49 days!




DonPetro said:


> Have you grown the c99 before? Are the smells and flavors really as amazing as they say? How is the smoke? Also, st0w, your yields are looking great...what would you say is the biggest contributor to a heavy harvest when growing all-natural?


This is my first grow of this C-99. The smell is straight up sweet pineapple. So delicious smelling! I haven't tasted/smoked them yet, but I'll be sure to let you know once I do. Probably have some feedback for ya within a couple weeks....

As for yield I don't really think there are any tricks beyond the usual advice. Container size, veg time, and ample lighting would be the limiting factors beyond genetics. I don't supplement with CO2, or use any special additives. I do find using my tomato cages to tuck the apical tip under to be beneficial. It promotes those side shoots to really explode while not causing any stress like topping/super-cropping might do. Usually around the 10-14 day mark of flower my plants have stretched a good 6"- 8" above the top rung of the tomato cage, at which point I just tuck it under the rung and leave it be. By the 3'rd-4'th week of flower I have a nice even canopy of colas that are starting to fatten up

edit: That "group shot" pic above is 5 plants. That pic was taken at 3 weeks 12/12. The stretch was done, and there are probably a good 4-5 main colas per plant just from tucking the main stem under the tomato cage rung. By not topping/super cropping the plants incur no stress and just keep chugging along


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Oct 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Thanks Grease! That C-99 is from Female Seeds. I bought 10 but only popped 2 of them to start, and they are identical clones of one another. Very stable line. I'll put them under a scope before I chop, but they are looking to be ready by next weekend IMO. 49 days!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


damn dude, that's some impressive stuff for only 49 days with a sativa-hybrid. I gotta get me some of these, a forum buddy (keizersoze) has some extra c99s that need adoption... may have to make the trip down there... maybe i'll do that instead of getting the chucky's bride, I just want some c99 genetics.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Oct 13, 2014)

copy and paste from buildasoil regarding agsil

im following this exact recipe and it works great!
both neem and liter

AGSIL16H is manufactured by PQ corporation and is one of the few silica products on the market that is water soluble. This simple powder will save money over buying water based Silica Bottle products.
See the MSDS report here: AGSIL16H MSDS PDF
Compare to Pro-Tekt, Rhino Skin, Silica Blast and all other Silica Bottled products. There is no secret ingredient, all are made from potassium silicate.
*How to use this powder dry with your Neem Oil:* Mix 1.5 grams (Just under 1/2 Teaspoon) AgSil 16H with 1 ounce Ahimsa Pure Neem Oil to emulsify the oil. Then mix this emulsified oil with one gallon final volume spray solution. Spray every other week covering all plant surfaces (top and bottom of leaves) until it runs off.
*Grower Pro Tip: *
Make your own nutrient bottle! Here is a recipe to make a liquid version of a Silica Nutrient.
Just follow the mixing recipe below.





*If you don't have a scale: Use 3 Tablespoons of Agsil16H for every 8 ounces water.*
Following the above recipe to make 1 Liter of 7.8% Liquid Solution you would mix 148 Grams of Agsil16H into 1 Liter of water. Then you can store it in a bottle or jar and shake well before using. I use an old bottle of ProTekt to mix and store mine. (1 Liter of water is about 34 Ounces)


http://buildasoil.com/products/agsil16h-potassium-silicate


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## Pattahabi (Oct 13, 2014)

So, I raised my eye brows at adding powdered agsil to neem. I could be totally wrong about this, but I assumed it needed to be two liquids?

From Wiki
_An *emulsion* is a mixture of two or more liquids that are normally immiscible (nonmixable or unblendable)._

Has anyone tried mixing the agsil powder straight into neem?

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Oct 13, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> So, I raised my eye brows at adding powdered agsil to neem. I could be totally wrong about this, but I assumed it needed to be two liquids?
> 
> From Wiki
> _An *emulsion* is a mixture of two or more liquids that are normally immiscible (nonmixable or unblendable)._
> ...


 my issue is, I really don't like neem oil on my plants... Neem seed cake? Well hell yeah, but oil I don't like. I just don't. Good information to have for those that like neem oil though


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> my issue is, I really don't like neem oil on my plants... Neem seed cake? Well hell yeah, but oil I don't like. I just don't. Good information to have for those that like neem oil though


Grease, can I ask why you don't like neem oil on your plants? If it is the smell, have you tried karanja?

Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 13, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Grease, can I ask why you don't like neem oil on your plants? If it is the smell, have you tried karanja?
> 
> Peace!
> P-


yeah, the smell, the slight residue, I just don't like it, I've used neem oil probably ten times or so in my life, and I wasn't impressed. I've never tried karanja.
My preferred sprays are ssts, aact, vegie sprays (comfrey,dandelion) aloe, and coconut water. And I've only done the SSts recently so i'm not sure if the foliar spray is better than a standard root watering
oh, and dr. bronners eucalyptus soap, a drop or two in a spray bottle and it sorta kinda (ok not really) helps with my constant redwood-mite infestation (thank god summer is about over)
also yeah,and one time, years ago I followed the directions perfectly and sprayed some newly flowering ladies with neem oil and it fried the pistils, that pissed me off a lil too. It's one of those things where I fully acknowledge that it's a valuable thing, but I just don't like it


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 13, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> So, I raised my eye brows at adding powdered agsil to neem. I could be totally wrong about this, but I assumed it needed to be two liquids?
> 
> From Wiki
> _An *emulsion* is a mixture of two or more liquids that are normally immiscible (nonmixable or unblendable)._
> ...



hmmmm I too have read this somewhere,

and honestly mixing agsil to neem does work (at least to my eyes), ill take pics by tomorrow for proof.

and neem, I love the smell!


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yeah, the smell, the slight residue, I just don't like it, I've used neem oil probably ten times or so in my life, and I wasn't impressed. I've never tried karanja.
> My preferred sprays are ssts, aact, vegie sprays (comfrey,dandelion) aloe, and coconut water. And I've only done the SSts recently so i'm not sure if the foliar spray is better than a standard root watering
> oh, and dr. bronners eucalyptus soap, a drop or two in a spray bottle and it sorta kinda (ok not really) helps with my constant redwood-mite infestation (thank god summer is about over)
> also yeah,and one time, years ago I followed the directions perfectly and sprayed some newly flowering ladies with neem oil and it fried the pistils, that pissed me off a lil too. It's one of those things where I fully acknowledge that it's a valuable thing, but I just don't like it


LOL! The smell is kinda blah. In contrast the neem seed cake smells pretty good. Almost like soy sauce or something. At least the stuff from neem resource smells that way


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## DonPetro (Oct 13, 2014)

My neem meal...


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## Pattahabi (Oct 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yeah, the smell, the slight residue, I just don't like it, I've used neem oil probably ten times or so in my life, and I wasn't impressed. I've never tried karanja.
> My preferred sprays are ssts, aact, vegie sprays (comfrey,dandelion) aloe, and coconut water. And I've only done the SSts recently so i'm not sure if the foliar spray is better than a standard root watering
> oh, and dr. bronners eucalyptus soap, a drop or two in a spray bottle and it sorta kinda (ok not really) helps with my constant redwood-mite infestation (thank god summer is about over)
> also yeah,and one time, years ago I followed the directions perfectly and sprayed some newly flowering ladies with neem oil and it fried the pistils, that pissed me off a lil too. It's one of those things where I fully acknowledge that it's a valuable thing, but I just don't like it


GMM, couple of things quick, try the karanja if the neem smell is the issue. Make sure you emulsify correctly, or you will have problems. SST's, Compost Teas and coconut water really should go in the soil. I've heard the deal CT's can supress disease etc, but I'm not buying it till I see more research. I don't spray plants showing pistils with neem, although I'm not going to rule out that it can not be done without burning pistils.



foreverflyhi said:


> hmmmm I too have read this somewhere,
> 
> and honestly mixing agsil to neem does work (at least to my eyes), ill take pics by tomorrow for proof.
> 
> and neem, I love the smell!


Hey FFH! Like I said, I raised my eyebrows, but I'm certainly not a chemist. I have only seen to add water to the agsil first, and then emulsify the neem. I'm interested if this can be done with a powder though!

Peace!
P-


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## hyroot (Oct 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> LOL! The smell is kinda blah. In contrast the neem seed cake smells pretty good. Almost like soy sauce or something. At least the stuff from neem resource smells that way


the neem meal I use smells like that organic peanut butter from trader joes.

does anyone mix a kelp alfalfa tea with seeds sprouts? I decided to try it. I will water tonight, flower and veg room with that tea.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 14, 2014)

Anyone use the Ahisma neem from Neem Resource? I love the smell of the meal. I heard a number the other day, dyna grow neem oil is like 1500ppm and neem resource is like 4500ppm. Pretty potent stuff.


P-


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## CannaBare (Oct 14, 2014)

Do organic amendments ever go stale or bad? I am almost out of my 5 pound bags of amendments and decided if I buy them I might as well buy in bulk. Would it be wise to buy amendments in 50 lbs bags? Would I be able to use them for the rest of my life without worrying if it will still be effective in say 5 years? I do know the amendments are excellent quality because I purchased them in smaller bags first.

Thanks!


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 14, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> GMM, couple of things quick, try the karanja if the neem smell is the issue. Make sure you emulsify correctly, or you will have problems. SST's, Compost Teas and coconut water really should go in the soil. I've heard the deal CT's can supress disease etc, but I'm not buying it till I see more research. I don't spray plants showing pistils with neem, although I'm not going to rule out that it can not be done without burning pistils.
> 
> 
> Hey FFH! Like I said, I raised my eyebrows, but I'm certainly not a chemist. I have only seen to add water to the agsil first, and then emulsify the neem. I'm interested if this can be done with a powder though!
> ...


 Yeah, I typically I don't spray my flowering ladies, but at the time (years ago) I was told it worked wonders on mites, and it didn't, it fried the pistils and the mites didn't even slow down, so that was kind of a bad first impression, and since then i'm probably just holding a grudge, contrary to cliché's tied to being a pothead, I have a good memory...
I do like to spray my vegging plants... with anything and everything, and it seems to have only positive effects, and since I started spraying AACTs on my girls the mites have slowed down, course its getting cooler and that could be simply from them not liking humid conditions, but damnit, looks to be working, could *very* well likely be all in my head. I just wish I had the time, energy, space, and money to setup three different growing conditions, maybe four, and then I could truly tell what does and does NOT work, I could do veganics, pure organics, no-till, so on, and so on, but until then it's almost impossible to decipher what is working and isn't, I can only tell yu that as a whole, its working, but hell, it could be the plants thriving in *spite *of what i'm doing. I doun't think that's the case, but who knows, especially since the plants look pretty happy, so who's to say what that is from...
plus I coulda swore I read in a couple horticulture books that plants liked tea-foliar feeds..


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 14, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Anyone use the Ahisma neem from Neem Resource? I love the smell of the meal. I heard a number the other day, dyna grow neem oil is like 1500ppm and neem resource is like 4500ppm. Pretty potent stuff.
> 
> 
> P-



Yes, I use it and love it! The meal smells like soy sauce to me. Does it give you that same smell or is my sniffer off?


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## Pattahabi (Oct 14, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Yeah, I typically I don't spray my flowering ladies, but at the time (years ago) I was told it worked wonders on mites, and it didn't, it fried the pistils and the mites didn't even slow down, so that was kind of a bad first impression, and since then i'm probably just holding a grudge, contrary to cliché's tied to being a pothead, I have a good memory...
> I do like to spray my vegging plants... with anything and everything, and it seems to have only positive effects, and since I started spraying AACTs on my girls the mites have slowed down, course its getting cooler and that could be simply from them not liking humid conditions, but damnit, looks to be working, could *very* well likely be all in my head. I just wish I had the time, energy, space, and money to setup three different growing conditions, maybe four, and then I could truly tell what does and does NOT work, I could do veganics, pure organics, no-till, so on, and so on, but until then it's almost impossible to decipher what is working and isn't, I can only tell yu that as a whole, its working, but hell, it could be the plants thriving in *spite *of what i'm doing. I doun't think that's the case, but who knows, especially since the plants look pretty happy, so who's to say what that is from...
> plus I coulda swore I read in a couple horticulture books that plants liked tea-foliar feeds..


Imo the real key to using neem oil is to emulsify it correctly. If you were ever wanting to try it again, I can give you detailed instructions how to do it. I wouldn't spray on flowering ladies like you said, unless it was dire situation. And I'm totally with you, I wish I had a little more space so I could run a few experiments. This is my thought process on spraying CT's, what are soil microbes going to do on the philosphere? I know the tea people are really pushing the variety of ways it can be used, but I have my doubts about the efficacy of some methods.



st0wandgrow said:


> Yes, I use it and love it! The meal smells like soy sauce to me. Does it give you that same smell or is my sniffer off?


Lol Stow! I don't know about soy sauce (have to go smell it again), but something along those lines. At first I wasn't sure if I liked the smell or not, now I love it! I even buy neem toothpaste!

Check this out as a neem overview. $1.20 on Kindle - the price is right lol!
http://www.amazon.com/Neem-Benefits-Environment-Pamela-Paterson/dp/1470001438

Peace!
P-


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## DonPetro (Oct 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yes, I use it and love it! The meal smells like soy sauce to me. Does it give you that same smell or is my sniffer off?


Mine reminds me of powder beef stock. Really strong!


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 14, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Mine reminds me of powder beef stock. Really strong!


That's it!! Smells like boullion cubes or however you spell it.

Good call


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## YesMamNoSir (Oct 14, 2014)

Quick question on the neem...... I have Natural Guard Neem and Bonide neem. I bought them both at a nursery that was going out of business and they were dirt cheap. The Natural Guard Neem is 30% pyrethrum and 70% clarified hydrophobic neem extract. (The Bonide is for tomatoes and roses out front, seems to work when it's not tropical humidity out. I also used that Natural Guard on my Okra when I saw Aphids and some mealy bugs. It got rid of them but it may have been the pyrethrum) I couldn't find anywhere if it was cold pressed like the DynaGro. Does the jibber jabber after 70% tell me that.......I was assuming it was stating that it had the veil lifted bringing about clarity and letting me know it had phobias towards the Greek mythological hydra, but I may be wrong in that assumption.

Would I be better off water composting and making a botanical out of my high quality neem cake?? From notable sources.


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## hyroot (Oct 15, 2014)

about 7 hours after kelp / alfalfa / seed sprout tea mix. 10 min before sleepy time.

9lb hammer


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## DonPetro (Oct 15, 2014)

hyroot said:


> about 7 hours after kelp / alfalfa / seed sprout tea mix. 10 min before sleepy time.
> 
> 9lb hammer
> 
> ...


Looking good Hy!


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## CannaBare (Oct 15, 2014)

hyroot said:


> about 7 hours after kelp / alfalfa / seed sprout tea mix. 10 min before sleepy time.
> 
> 9lb hammer
> 
> ...


Whats your recipe? I use 1/4 cup kelp + 1/2 cup alfalfa and 1 tsp diastatic malt powder. About the same? Looks beautiful!


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## hyroot (Oct 15, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Whats your recipe? I use 1/4 cup kelp + 1/2 cup alfalfa and 1 tsp diastatic malt powder. About the same? Looks beautiful!


yeah but no powder. Just mung bean sprouts. I used up the mung beans. So next I will be using raw sunflower seeds.. They're cheaper. $1.29 a lb.


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## a senile fungus (Oct 15, 2014)

Just mixed about 10ft³ of soil...

My back is hurting tonight!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 16, 2014)

Cheeseberry - I need a better carbon filter if I'm going to run this one again!


Random




I just sit back and watch, soil does the work...

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 16, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Cheeseberry - I need a better carbon filter if I'm going to run this one again!
> View attachment 3274672
> 
> Random
> ...


Is that Cheeseberry from Eskobar? Have you grown it before? 

Just curious cuz I have a pack of Cheeseberry Haze that I need to get to....


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## DonPetro (Oct 16, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Is that Cheeseberry from Eskobar? Have you grown it before?
> 
> Just curious cuz I have a pack of Cheeseberry Haze that I need to get to....


Cheeseberry Haze...mmmm...i must be dreaming!


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 16, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Cheeseberry Haze...mmmm...i must be dreaming!


Right?!?!

Tell me this doesn't look deeeeelicious!

http://www.sanniesshop.com/cheeseberry-haze-en.html


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## DonPetro (Oct 16, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Right?!?!
> 
> Tell me this doesn't look deeeeelicious!
> 
> http://www.sanniesshop.com/cheeseberry-haze-en.html


Looks and sounds amazing! How could you miss with parentage like that!!!


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 16, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Looks and sounds amazing! How could you miss with parentage like that!!!


And only $28 for a pack

I love Sannies shop! I've picked up a ton of seeds from them over the years


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 16, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Just mixed about 10ft³ of soil...
> 
> My back is hurting tonight!
> 
> View attachment 3274449



Ditto! Just mixed my last 8cf, for 24cf total. Should be good for a year or so now....

My back is screaming at me too. We should hit up a local massage parlor for our ..... sore backs (cough)!


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## a senile fungus (Oct 16, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Ditto! Just mixed my last 8cf, for 24cf total. Should be good for a year or so now....
> 
> My back is screaming at me too. We should hit up a local massage parlor for our ..... sore backs (cough)!



Hahaha ya I could use one, I hear they give happy endings.

And we all live happily ever after


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## Pattahabi (Oct 16, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Is that Cheeseberry from Eskobar? Have you grown it before?
> 
> Just curious cuz I have a pack of Cheeseberry Haze that I need to get to....


Yessir! It is the plain Cheeseberry, not the Cheeseberry Haze. I had to stake up a few branches last night and damn! Good thing it was late, cause no way the carbon filters where taking care of that!

P-


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## radicaldank42 (Oct 17, 2014)

what about about using the old soil and everything and have it be used for worm composting?


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## a senile fungus (Oct 17, 2014)

When using a powerful soil mix do you guys transplant straight into it? Or dilute it down with the base mix?

I have party cups with clones in them. The cups have the base mix (1/3 sphagnum peat, 1/3 cocoa bean shells and perlite, 1/3 manure compost and EWC)

I want to set up my 7gallon fabric pots right now, and leave the feed mix to cook in the pots.

Should I put the feed mix in the bottom of the pots and leave an area of base up top to transplant into? Or....?

Input welcome!


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 17, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> When using a powerful soil mix do you guys transplant straight into it? Or dilute it down with the base mix?
> 
> I have party cups with clones in them. The cups have the base mix (1/3 sphagnum peat, 1/3 cocoa bean shells and perlite, 1/3 manure compost and EWC)
> 
> ...


I go from the cloner to just my base for 3 weeks veg in a small container, then I transplant in to the regular soil mix for 3 more weeks veg. Not sure if that's necessary but it's how I've been doing it.


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## a senile fungus (Oct 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I go from the cloner to just my base for 3 weeks veg in a small container, then I transplant in to the regular soil mix for 3 more weeks veg. Not sure if that's necessary but it's how I've been doing it.



My mix has a lot more amendments then yours does, I'm just worried it'll be hot... 

Looks like I'll go buy a tester plant and throw it in a pot and see if it'll take it.


Thanks stow!


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## DonPetro (Oct 17, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> My mix has a lot more amendments then yours does, I'm just worried it'll be hot...
> 
> Looks like I'll go buy a tester plant and throw it in a pot and see if it'll take it.
> 
> ...


What you got for a soil mix?


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## a senile fungus (Oct 17, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> What you got for a soil mix?


Its essentially rrog's mix, but I didn't have any neem meal or fish meal to add... Or the clays, but I did get some rock dusts in there...

I'm also wondering about the cocoa bean shells husks that I used. They're intended for a mulch but I thought they'd be a good aerator and I think they'll break down and contribute C and N but I'm not 100% positive. I haven't seen many/any reports of people using the stuff. It smells like chocolate, my whole house smells like chocolate! Lol


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## abe supercro (Oct 17, 2014)

^Pls be careful of the *theobromine in the cocoa shell mulch *around your dog!!!! I think that you'll find that it gets soggy in a mix and breaks down fairy rapidly. 
the stuff smells great though.


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## a senile fungus (Oct 17, 2014)

abe supercro said:


> ^Pls be careful of the *theobromine in the cocoa hulls *around your dog!!!! I think that you'll find that it gets soggy in a mix and breaks down fairy rapidly. stuff smells great though.



My dog has sniffed the stuff and isn't interested.

Thank you though, any other dog but mine and I'd be concerned; I know that stuff is toxic to canines.

So far it is draining wonderfully, but like you said, I think it'll compost fairly rapidly. My aeration is 2/3 cocoa hulls and 1/3perlite.

Thank you!


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## Mohican (Oct 18, 2014)

How are the plants growing in it? Any pics?

My cats are not interested in live plants. They will eat the grass around them but won't eat the cannabis. One of the cats did try to eat some Malawi budder:










Cheers,
Mo


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## a senile fungus (Oct 18, 2014)

Mohican said:


> How are the plants growing in it? Any pics?
> 
> My cats are not interested in live plants. They will eat the grass around them but won't eat the cannabis. One of the cats did try to eat some Malawi budder:
> 
> ...



The clones were just transplanted into the base mix a few days ago.

They're in red solo cups for now then will be up-potted. 

I'd like to end up with 7gallon fabric pots, should I transplant straight into the 7g or up-pot gradually?

I'll get pics once I'm around there...

That soil mix on the tarp in the pic is Rrog's mix and will have a test plant plugged into it to see how it fares. I kept about 10gallons of base mix separate in case I needed it to dilute the soil, or up-pot.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 18, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> The clones were just transplanted into the base mix a few days ago.
> 
> They're in red solo cups for now then will be up-potted.
> 
> ...


I go straight from the initial small container in to the final/big one with no transplants in between. Just be sure not to over water for the first couple weeks in the 7 gal. Keep the top layer moist but no need to do a huge soil drench. Keeping a light breeze on them with a fan helps.

I'm sure Rrogs mix will be kick ass!


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## Mohican (Oct 18, 2014)

I went from these:



to these:



to these:



to the 7 gallon smart pots.



I also tried 20 gallon:




Cheers,
Mo


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 18, 2014)

I agree with stow, the less the plant is transplanted the better.

on another note, im about to order pumice off build a soil, anyone know a better price for pumice? cant find the stuff locally
http://buildasoil.com/products/pumice

I only need a couple gallons worth.


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## Mohican (Oct 18, 2014)

The only issue I have had with going big from small is that the soil stays wet too long. Although fabric pots do dry pretty quickly


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 18, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> I agree with stow, the less the plant is transplanted the better.
> 
> on another note, im about to order pumice off build a soil, anyone know a better price for pumice? cant find the stuff locally
> http://buildasoil.com/products/pumice
> ...


I have a tough time sourcing that locally too FFH. It seems like the perfect aeration amendment but I refuse to have it shipped. I'm trying to talk the local feed store I go to into carrying it


----------



## foreverflyhi (Oct 18, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I have a tough time sourcing that locally too FFH. It seems like the perfect aeration amendment but I refuse to have it shipped. I'm trying to talk the local feed store I go to into carrying it


yea I feel yea on not getting it shipped. ive been sitting on a small soil batch that I need to use, I don't want to use perlite no more.....
plus I want to do a comparison on pumice and vermiculite..

my vermiculite batch is doing amazing!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 18, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> yea I feel yea on not getting it shipped. ive been sitting on a small soil batch that I need to use, I don't want to use perlite no more.....
> plus I want to do a comparison on pumice and vermiculite..
> 
> my vermiculite batch is doing amazing!


Any places that carry rice hulls by you? I'm a fan of those


----------



## Mohican (Oct 18, 2014)

Is there anything wrong with using coco coir?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 18, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Is there anything wrong with using coco coir?


Apparently the cec isn't as high as with peat, but I'm seeing good results from my first run of it. I'm about 7 weeks in to flower and the gals all look healthy. Only difference I'm noticing is that it seems to retain moisture more than peat.


----------



## a senile fungus (Oct 18, 2014)

Mohican said:


> How are the plants growing in it? Any pics?
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> Mo



Here's the little ones in a base mix of 1/3 sphagnum peat moss, 1/3 cocoa shells and perlite, and 1/3 compost and EWC.


----------



## CannaBare (Oct 18, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Is there anything wrong with using coco coir?


I use coco for aeration just like Hyroot and it is great!  Same ratio just Aeration is coco


----------



## DonPetro (Oct 19, 2014)

I love the coco for its texture and moisture retention. Seems more recyclable friendly as well.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Oct 19, 2014)

boblawblah421 said:


> Good 'ol Lemon Skunk. She needed to stretch her legs. 300+ gallons of recycled organic living soil should do the trick.
> View attachment 3198398
> 
> View of the setup...
> ...


was hoping we can get a update on this grow?


ive been wanting to do something very similar.... problem is, im a little worried if a oh shit moment pops up and I have to move or take apart my grow, I would imagine a bed would be much harder..

but man this grow is beautiful, looks like a community of cannabis growing side by side.


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## anzohaze (Oct 19, 2014)

I just replanted some girls this evening. Had them in cups repotted ti 2gal pots w 13% SS 20% lava rock and 33% spagnum 15% ewc ran out gotta pick up more and will tope dress the rest w ewc to make is 33% there onlye like 3.5 weeks old would have used more SS but did not wantnto burn them


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## Tazbud (Oct 19, 2014)

Just a thought on pumice.
Anyone tried this?:

http://www.growstone.com/

I can't believe- it's made stateside, has some offset for green angst and this stuff is lovely! Yet I just don't hear much about it. Like little irregular shaped pumice rock, pea size. I'm on the other side of the globe and still it's good value here (and where every amendment is imported anyway). I found a local source for free rice hull and am trying to figure out whether rotten wood is going to be stable but they will break down. I like the idea of having some lasting aeration amendment in perpetual soil?


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## Pattahabi (Oct 19, 2014)

Tazbud said:


> Just a thought on pumice.
> Anyone tried this?:
> 
> http://www.growstone.com/
> ...


Bring cash...


----------



## Tazbud (Oct 20, 2014)

Ah, ok, to buy they are all fairly similar prices locally

(We were thinking of using growstone in the lower 2/3 pot and hulls in the top. 
Even better, woodchips, i'm just not sure of them though, maybe some.)


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Oct 20, 2014)

They push coco and growstones really hard at my hydro store. We need an Organic store where you can scoop your nutes, like in a brew store. There are a grip of growers in So. Cal. Majority would still use the bottles nutes, if knew all options. 

Would like to ask a question. Does it matter how the soil is recycled? Meaning to breakup used soil versus replanting directly into used pot of soil. Im confused as to why not to break up the used soil and amend as opposed to one top dressing. Does breaking it up kill the Mycos.?


----------



## Tazbud (Oct 21, 2014)

Ha, i'd never thought of aeration in organic terms, it all degrades though I guess- just growstone a better alternative than perlite. I'd try some sort of lava rock, there's not a volcano in sight either though (lol) .. I actually did pull the growstone from the hydro section lol, guess that's who's buying it doh! -the hydro guys.


I'd fit my organic knowledge into one of these guys party cups but (from what I know of ecology) different organisms at different levels, different habitat in the surface zone under mulch to what is at depth, that sorta thing. I just feel it is right to try and keep it that way if possible (may not be to any great extent or without 'decades'. May not even make a helluva lot of difference to the result?) and that said iv'e always seemed to find a reason to dig around and mix more stuff in there but trying to get to get to eventually just leaving the old roots in place.


----------



## malignant (Oct 21, 2014)

All br


st0wandgrow said:


> Any places that carry rice hulls by you? I'm a fan of those


 all
Brewing supply shops.


----------



## malignant (Oct 21, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Bring cash...





Tazbud said:


> Just a thought on pumice.
> Anyone tried this?:
> 
> http://www.growstone.com/
> ...



Ive used growstones, great NM product made from recycled windshields. They have small ones for soil amending and large ones for hydro. Half of them float...


----------



## Tazbud (Oct 21, 2014)

They do tend to gather a bit on soil surface, like perlite
rice hulls are sold for use in composting shitterz too (just sayin)


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 21, 2014)

Grape Stomper OG



P-


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 22, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Grape Stomper OG
> 
> View attachment 3278544
> 
> P-



Have you smoked this yet?

Curious to see what you think of it. I tried Gage's Grape Puff and it was a let down. Seemed that the Joseph OG really dominated the cross.... which I didn't care for. I was looking for something grape, but it ended up smelling like diesel and was just mediocre in every other aspect. It also hermied around week 7 and seeded a bunch of my other plants. 

I have also grown a grape stomper cross which is supposedly the exact same GS as Gage's, and it was excellent. Very grapey smell, with a very narcotic stone. Great evening smoke


----------



## foreverflyhi (Oct 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Have you smoked this yet?
> 
> Curious to see what you think of it. I tried Gage's Grape Puff and it was a let down. Seemed that the Joseph OG really dominated the cross.... which I didn't care for. I was looking for something grape, but it ended up smelling like diesel and was just mediocre in every other aspect. It also hermied around week 7 and seeded a bunch of my other plants.
> 
> I have also grown a grape stomper cross which is supposedly the exact same GS as Gage's, and it was excellent. Very grapey smell, with a very narcotic stone. Great evening smoke


nothing like good ol Grape Ape! or at least in California


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Have you smoked this yet?
> 
> Curious to see what you think of it. I tried Gage's Grape Puff and it was a let down. Seemed that the Joseph OG really dominated the cross.... which I didn't care for. I was looking for something grape, but it ended up smelling like diesel and was just mediocre in every other aspect. It also hermied around week 7 and seeded a bunch of my other plants.
> 
> I have also grown a grape stomper cross which is supposedly the exact same GS as Gage's, and it was excellent. Very grapey smell, with a very narcotic stone. Great evening smoke


Hey Stow, I haven't smoked this yet. I have 3 plants in flower now, and the one pictured looks different then the other two. They are packing on more resin then anything else in the room. I'm a little disappointed in yield already, but we'll see when it's all said and done. I have some hermies on one of the aurora life plants, but I think I'm just going to pick them off for now. I'm hoping I don't have that much longer till chop - maybe three weeks?

Peace!
P-


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 22, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey Stow, I haven't smoked this yet. I have 3 plants in flower now, and the one pictured looks different then the other two. They are packing on more resin then anything else in the room. I'm a little disappointed in yield already, but we'll see when it's all said and done. I have some hermies on one of the aurora life plants, but I think I'm just going to pick them off for now. I'm hoping I don't have that much longer till chop - maybe three weeks?
> 
> Peace!
> P-


Well, that plant of yours sure looks nice! What's she smelling like?

Here's a couple pics of the Grape Puff. You can see the nanners in there....


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 22, 2014)

That grape og must smell insane !!

Im currentling bringing up my seedlings with my 250w MH, unfortunately as you can see below the two seeds i got from the breeder are small & mutant like : / the one on the right grew one baby leaf & hasnt grown since & i though it would recover, ive used about 40% peat 40% perlite & 20% EWC, the one thats grown the biggest is the bag seed & the 2nd biggest is The Church, should i maybe just pull them and plant other seeds ?


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Well, that plant of yours sure looks nice! What's she smelling like?
> 
> Here's a couple pics of the Grape Puff. You can see the nanners in there....
> 
> View attachment 3278744 View attachment 3278745 View attachment 3278746


damn, i'd pay good money for those nanners.... bag em up and ship em to santa cruz! That's a beefy lookin lady...
and it looks like it could go another 10 days or so too, it's gonna be a nice lookin plant at the end, already is.


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## DonPetro (Oct 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Well, that plant of yours sure looks nice! What's she smelling like?
> 
> Here's a couple pics of the Grape Puff. You can see the nanners in there....
> 
> View attachment 3278744 View attachment 3278745 View attachment 3278746


I'd smoke it! Never been a huge fan of kushes though but damn...i'd smoke a hippys panties at this point. Hurtin!


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## Mohican (Oct 23, 2014)

@SouthernSoil* - That bag seeder looks awesome. I love the dark stem


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 23, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> I'd smoke it! Never been a huge fan of kushes though but damn...i'd smoke a hippys panties at this point. Hurtin!


hippy's panties eh? Yummy...
There are some damn stanky hippies in santa cruz...
that's why i like to save my lower buds, throw them in a brown paper bag, and put that bag in another bag, and throw it under your bed or something...


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 23, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> I'd smoke it...i'd smoke a hippys panties at this point. Hurtin!


Thanks (I think)! lol!!


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 23, 2014)

Mohican said:


> @SouthernSoil* - That bag seeder looks awesome. I love the dark stem


Thank you bro! ive got more seeds of that bagseed strain, i even have pics of the buds i had from it a year ago and im thinking of planting another 2 more and ripping out those mutants, i seriously wanna go to that breeder and literally kick his shit in : / The other strain thats doing fine aswell is The Church, just worried about the headstart now cause im going to start germinating another two tomorrow, much respect.


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## DonPetro (Oct 23, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hippy's panties eh? Yummy...
> There are some damn stanky hippies in santa cruz...
> that's why i like to save my lower buds, throw them in a brown paper bag, and put that bag in another bag, and throw it under your bed or something...





st0wandgrow said:


> Thanks (I think)! lol!!


Yea i never learn.


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 23, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Yea i never learn.


 actually one of the many, many, reasons I don't defoiliate, or snip the small nugs... sometimes shit happens and a bunch of larfy crystally goodness is the nicest site you see.
Plus, maybe it's all in my head but buds that slowly dry in brown paper bags always taste perfect to me.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 23, 2014)

Talks about ROLS gardening. Most of it isn't bad.

www.hightimes.com/read/growing-maximum-flavor

P-


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## hyroot (Oct 24, 2014)

@Pattahabi do you have problems soaking raw sunflower seeds? I am. They float on top of the water. I fill the container to the top with water and put a lid on to make sure they get soaked. Half of the seeds some how force their way above water. As if the sunflower seeds made the water denser. Doesn't make sense, I know. Or water gets inside the the lower shells changing displacement. Is this normal? I'm used to the mung beans that always sink.. Then expand once they sprout.


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 24, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Talks about ROLS gardening. Most of it isn't bad.
> 
> www.hightimes.com/read/growing-maximum-flavor
> 
> P-


I actually read that not too long ago at a local headshop, high times is loosing money by not advertising all those bottle nutes on this one!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 24, 2014)

hyroot said:


> @Pattahabi do you have problems soaking raw sunflower seeds? I am. They float on top of the water. I fill the container to the top with water and put a lid on to make sure they get soaked. Half of the seeds some how force their way above water. As if the sunflower seeds made the water denser. Doesn't make sense, I know. Or water gets inside the the lower shells changing displacement. Is this normal? I'm used to the mung beans that always sink.. Then expand once they sprout.


Hey Hyroot! I know exactly what you are talking about. I have one of those seed sprouting cups. I usually put the lid on and swish it around a bit so they all get wet. Occasionally through out the day I might swish it around once in a while. I have to follow up on a line of some malted sunflower seeds today! 



foreverflyhi said:


> I actually read that not too long ago at a local headshop, high times is loosing money by not advertising all those bottle nutes on this one!


Hey Fly! I thought I had seen that article before. Pretty sweet that it is in hightimes. The article has a laundry list of inputs, but still nice to see ROLS getting some facetime!

Long day today! Better eat my wheeties!

Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 24, 2014)

hyroot said:


> @Pattahabi do you have problems soaking raw sunflower seeds? I am. They float on top of the water. I fill the container to the top with water and put a lid on to make sure they get soaked. Half of the seeds some how force their way above water. As if the sunflower seeds made the water denser. Doesn't make sense, I know. Or water gets inside the the lower shells changing displacement. Is this normal? I'm used to the mung beans that always sink.. Then expand once they sprout.


are they not raw? I assume they are if they sprout, but thats weird, I have a bag that I've done three teas with and they always sink... maybe they have a thin layer of oil on them keeping them from soaking?


Pattahabi said:


> Talks about ROLS gardening. Most of it isn't bad.
> 
> www.hightimes.com/read/growing-maximum-flavor
> 
> P-


good link Pat, didn't learn anything new, but it's good that a mainstream mag, has acknowledged it, it's a start, right?


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## DonPetro (Oct 24, 2014)

Maybe Skunk mag is starting to bite into their sales...


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## Mohican (Oct 24, 2014)

Try a drop of soap to make them sink.


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## CannaBare (Oct 24, 2014)

I don't know if anyone has had this problem but today a Jack Herer seed I sprouted developed damping off. I noticed it this morning around 9am and immediately looked for solutions. I found Trichoderma has a serious effect on the fungus and I also had some fungi perfecti myco grow soluble and luckily it has many species of Trichoderma. So I decided to apply it around the base of the seedling. I also covered with a small shot glass for humidity to get the fungus going. I am here to report my seedling is straight as can be 12 hours later! I highly recommend keeping some Trichoderma on hand, It's great!


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## hyroot (Oct 25, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> are they not raw? I assume they are if they sprout, but thats weird, I have a bag that I've done three teas with and they always sink... maybe they have a thin layer of oil on them keeping them from soaking?



They're raw and slowly sprouting. A few sank. Most are floating. They take longer than mung beans to sprout.

does the water turn a dark almost brownish / black color when you soak them?


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## Pattahabi (Oct 26, 2014)

*Snake Oil, Horticultural Myths, Horticultural Urban Legends, and Persuaders in our Industry*


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## Mohican (Oct 26, 2014)

Superthrive is one of those mythical additives. Nothing beats my worm compost!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 26, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Superthrive is one of those mythical additives. Nothing beats my worm compost!


Lmao! But I thought Superthrive was magic in a bottle! I mean it's organic riiiight?!

http://oda.state.or.us/dbs/heavy_metal/detail.lasso?-op=eq&product_id=3260

Oh wait, I guess it's on the stop sale list lol!

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 27, 2014)

hyroot said:


> They're raw and slowly sprouting. A few sank. Most are floating. They take longer than mung beans to sprout.
> 
> does the water turn a dark almost brownish / black color when you soak them?


no, just kind of a light milky type color, and they sink, they are pretty dense actually they don't float at all, like maybe 5 to 10% float, but after an hour or so they don't. I think you got a crappy batch...


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## hyroot (Oct 27, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> no, just kind of a light milky type color, and they sink, they are pretty dense actually they don't float at all, like maybe 5 to 10% float, but after an hour or so they don't. I think you got a crappy batch...


they all sprouted yesterday after 3 days. I just kept them between 2 wet cloths the 3rd day.


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 27, 2014)

hyroot said:


> they all sprouted yesterday after 3 days. I just kept them between 2 wet cloths the 3rd day.


weird, wonder why they were soaking black?


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## hyroot (Oct 27, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> weird, wonder why they were soaking black?


the water was more brownish the 2nd soaking. Maybe they were just dirty and not cleaned before. Where i go they have bins of all kinds of beans, rice, sugar, nuts, seeds, etc. . Hulled and unhulled. They either dispense from the top bins and the lower bins have a shovel.


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 27, 2014)

Could i ask what you guys do with plants that have gone mutant : / this is how mine looks after 3 weeks, https://www.rollitup.org/t/let-the-mutant-live.849111/ if anybody has some suggestions id really appreciate it, id like to either keep it or plant a new need, currently using peat , perlite & ewc in the soil mix. Peace


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## AllenHaze (Oct 27, 2014)

It's really up to you. Lot's of ifs. If she is the same age as the others then she is clearly behind. If you want to spend the extra time to nurture her she might catch up. If it's some genetics you're not looking to toss so quickly then keep her, if not the toss her and try another.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 27, 2014)

I have grown out less then desirable plants in the past simply cause I had nothing else to fill the space, but if you can help it, I wouldn't. Personally, with things only three weeks down the road, I'd start some new seeds. Ime when they get jacked up that early on, it either takes forever to recover, or doesn't happen at all. 

P-


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## bicit (Oct 27, 2014)

I have two questions for some of the more experienced folks here. Still plugging through the threads. 

1: Does anyone have a 'recipe' to make 'premium' small batches of compost? With the assumption that most of the components will need to be purchased and free ingredients such as yard waste are kinda scarce. Preferably looking for something that is repeatable and not looking for EWC. 

2: Has anyone on here experimented with a Bokashi bucket? What were your thoughts?


----------



## hyroot (Oct 27, 2014)

bicit said:


> I have two questions for some of the more experienced folks here. Still plugging through the threads.
> 
> 1: Does anyone have a 'recipe' to make 'premium' small batches of compost? With the assumption that most of the components will need to be purchased and free ingredients such as yard waste are kinda scarce. Preferably looking for something that is repeatable and not looking for EWC.
> 
> 2: Has anyone on here experimented with a Bokashi bucket? What were your thoughts?


Dried leaves, a little peat, a little coco, and some veggie scraps. mix wet down. In 2 weeks you will have leaf mold / compost. Same idea as a worm bin minus the worms.


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## Mohican (Oct 27, 2014)

Scraps from a juice shop and coffee grounds. Add some worms and shredded cardboard.


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## AllenHaze (Oct 27, 2014)

bicit said:


> 2: Has anyone on here experimented with a Bokashi bucket? What were your thoughts?


Bokashi buckets are okay. I use them to prepare scraps for my worms. The bokashi compost is broken down by the worms much faster than fresh scraps - I can harvest roughly 25 lbs of castings in about a month with my current setup.
Why do you prefer compost over WC? You can get the best of both worlds with _vermicompost. _


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## Mohican (Oct 27, 2014)

Check this out!

*Composter*


Cheers,
Mo


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 27, 2014)

AllenHaze said:


> It's really up to you. Lot's of ifs. If she is the same age as the others then she is clearly behind. If you want to spend the extra time to nurture her she might catch up. If it's some genetics you're not looking to toss so quickly then keep her, if not the toss her and try another.


Thank you bro, ill probably just toss it or try plant it somewhere else, i have some more bag seed like the plant in the top right, i was thinking about planting another one of those & possibly another of the diesel type strain i have, just not sure which is the better genetic and not a hermie possibly.


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 27, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I have grown out less then desirable plants in the past simply cause I had nothing else to fill the space, but if you can help it, I wouldn't. Personally, with things only three weeks down the road, I'd start some new seeds. Ime when they get jacked up that early on, it either takes forever to recover, or doesn't happen at all.
> 
> P-


Thank you again bro, ill be starting some new seeds for sure then, just thinking what to plant though, respect


----------



## bicit (Oct 27, 2014)

AllenHaze said:


> Bokashi buckets are okay. I use them to prepare scraps for my worms. The bokashi compost is broken down by the worms much faster than fresh scraps - I can harvest roughly 25 lbs of castings in about a month with my current setup.
> Why do you prefer compost over WC? You can get the best of both worlds with _vermicompost. _


I'm just more interested in compost specifically at the moment. They're both necessary for variety if I'm not mistaken.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Oct 28, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Check this out!
> 
> *Composter*
> 
> ...


Interesting man, it looks good ! Really good ! 



 , thank you for that bro : )


----------



## bicit (Oct 28, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Check this out!
> 
> *Composter*
> 
> ...


Certainly a cool unit, but if it sterilizes the mix it would be pretty poor compost by itself would it not? Seems like it would be better for processing hazardous wastes that normal wouldn't go into a compost or worm bin.


----------



## AllenHaze (Oct 28, 2014)

bicit said:


> I'm just more interested in compost specifically at the moment. They're both necessary for variety if I'm not mistaken.


 This is true but you're not going to get the same diversity with a specific recipe or single compost source. Generally the organisms present reflect the materials used. If you want variety then use compost from multiple sources. If I had to pick one or the other I'd pick vermicompost all day. Why are you curious about compost? What are you using it for? Likely for acids and microbes which will be superior in well made vermicompost.


----------



## bicit (Oct 28, 2014)

AllenHaze said:


> This is true but you're not going to get the same diversity with a specific recipe or single compost source. Generally the organisms present reflect the materials used. If you want variety then use compost from multiple sources. If I had to pick one or the other I'd pick vermicompost all day. Why are you curious about compost? What are you using it for? Likely for acids and microbes which will be superior in well made vermicompost.


I'm not arguing either or, more tools in the tool box as they say. Rather looking for something that can be put together by someone of limited mobility, scavenging skills, or in an area sparse of common yard wastes like leaves or grass clippings and space for big piles. Yet doesn't want to buy weak premade compost and wants ANOTHER tool besides VC.

If that makes sense.


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2014)

bicit said:


> I'm just more interested in compost specifically at the moment. They're both necessary for variety if I'm not mistaken.


Necessary, no, not imo. But I don't think it would hurt really. Personally I would want all my humic material to go through the worm bin if I can (thermal compost included). Only comes out better.

Do you have room for something like this?

http://www.amazon.com/Good-Ideas-CW-2X-Compost-Dueling/dp/B0090I5AAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1414523347&sr=8-1&keywords=compost+tumbler

There are many versions like the above one. I believe the smaller you go, the more difficult it is going to be to get your materials up to temp. However, I am by no means an expert composter. 

Peace!
P-


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2014)

*Branded products containing sewage sludge*


----------



## cannakis (Oct 28, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Necessary, no, not imo. But I don't think it would hurt really. Personally I would want all my humic material to go through the worm bin if I can (thermal compost included). Only comes out better.
> 
> Do you have room for something like this?
> 
> ...


Haha yeah you suck Pattahabi! 

But seriously, the pile Has to be at Least a Yard high and wide (a cubic yard), and 50:1 carbon:nitrogen ratio to Truly hot compost, wetting and letting sit four days turning every second day after that, will give you beautiful black mould/gold in 18 days.


----------



## smokey the cat (Oct 28, 2014)

bicit said:


> I'm not arguing either or, more tools in the tool box as they say. Rather looking for something that can be put together by someone of limited mobility, scavenging skills, or in an area sparse of common yard wastes like leaves or grass clippings and space for big piles. Yet doesn't want to buy weak premade compost and wants ANOTHER tool besides VC.
> 
> If that makes sense.



The best thing for anyone who doesn't have one is to "start a compost". It's what plants crave. Just gotta figure out how to wedge one into your lifestyle. It takes months to get up and running, but it's just what you need.

I deal with a crappy plastic bin.





Food and plant scraps in the top (along with some basic organic plant foods), magic comes out the bottom. There really isn't anything better than that.

A small household so all vegetable and plant waste goes in the top. You don't need a lot of stuff. Gives you a reason to buy and eat more vegetables and fruit - because the waste is a bonus. 

No plastic compost tub? Bodge something together from two old pallets, or treee limbs and and stuff. Or drill out a big plastic storage tub. Or buy a pair of those stupid compost tumblers. 

You just need a couple of square feet of bare ground.

If you don't have the space think about your community - neighbourhood compost bins are a thing these days.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Oct 28, 2014)

cannakis said:


> beautiful black mould/gold in 18 days.


I have a couple compost bins in my back yard made from old pallets. Granted I don't pay them much attention as it is only used once a year on my veggie garden, but I am no where close to 18 days to get finished compost. Probably closer to 18 months. lol

I'm guessing my C:N ratio is off.


----------



## bicit (Oct 28, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> The best thing for anyone who doesn't have one is to "start a compost". It's what plants crave. Just gotta figure out how to wedge one into your lifestyle. It takes months to get up and running, but it's just what you need.
> 
> I deal with a crappy plastic bin.
> 
> ...


So you just use left over plant material from your garden and waste vegetable scraps? How is odor control with that? Nothing like alfalfa meal or rock dust or other special ingredients into the bin?

Thanks.

ETA: To be clear. I'm essentially looking for a list of ingredients that an individual could buy, mix together, and 'cook' to get good compost. A quick reference for a beginner, handicapped, or 'lazy' individual. I'm going through the threads and formulating my own idea, just wanted to see some other opinions. Looking for 'regular' methods because some people are put off by the idea of earthworms.


----------



## hyroot (Oct 28, 2014)

if you want a good laugh


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 28, 2014)

Hey there again everybody, sorry for going slightly off topic again.. i wanted to ask, seeing as i have 3 different genetics in 3 pots and need to fill the 4th, would you say i try out another genetic in the 4th pot or not ? im leaning towards planting the bagseed thats doing so well though that sounds best to me but i dont know i love the variety aswell although i want wants safest cause i have The Church, Bagseed & a diesel type strain thats busy popping up, i just squeezed the stem of the Church & the stem of the bagseed & my word the smell already makes me cream, i cannot wait till these flower, i love the differences so much though although im not sure whats better.


----------



## Mohican (Oct 28, 2014)

You can get a good bit of variety from seeds of the same strain. That bagseed looks killer


----------



## AllDayToker (Oct 28, 2014)

hyroot said:


> if you want a good laugh


wtf? So I can just spend a bunch of money on a bunch of name brand over priced soil and combine them all and get super soil????



Made me laugh but I feel like some would actually do this lol.


----------



## Mohican (Oct 28, 2014)

We all gotta start somewhere! I used straight local organic veggie soil and only fed my plants once the first time I started growing again.




Imagine what it would have looked like if I had fed it!


Cheers,
Mo


----------



## hyroot (Oct 28, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> wtf? So I can just spend a bunch of money on a bunch of name brand over priced soil and combine them all and get super soil????
> 
> 
> 
> Made me laugh but I feel like some would actually do this lol.


I agree. It's what's wrong with the industry. Too much bad info. He's the one that coined the phrase, don't panic its organic.


----------



## AllDayToker (Oct 28, 2014)

I have a shirt that says don't panic it's organic, but I think it's from some T-shirt company called Money Does Grow on Trees. Kind of clever lol.

It is sad how much bad info is out there but like Mohican said some stuff in the video works it's just what he is doing is wrong. I mean when I first got into organics when I was figuring out tea recipes, I used straight FFOF. Once I got my teas down I could get into my soil and now do my ROLS of course, but I mean even to this day I bet a small base of my ROLS is still soil I reused from FFOF bags I use to buy back when.


----------



## hyroot (Oct 28, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> I have a shirt that says don't panic it's organic, but I think it's from some T-shirt company called Money Does Grow on Trees. Kind of clever lol.
> 
> It is sad how much bad info is out there but like Mohican said some stuff in the video works it's just what he is doing is wrong. I mean when I first got into organics when I was figuring out tea recipes, I used straight FFOF. Once I got my teas down I could get into my soil and now do my ROLS of course, but I mean even to this day I bet a small base of my ROLS is still soil I reused from FFOF bags I use to buy back when.


hydroton doesn't hold water at all. In his other videos he says never add it to soil. Why buy an expensive bag of soil to add more peatmoss. Why not buy a bale of peatmoss. More fore less money.


----------



## AllDayToker (Oct 28, 2014)

hyroot said:


> hydroton doesn't hold water at all. In his other videos he says never add it to soil. Why buy an expensive bag of soil to add more peatmoss. Why not buy a bale of peatmoss. More fore less money.


Yeah Idk who the hell that guy is but seeing that video for his first video, I don't think I'd watch others lmao.


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> Yeah Idk who the hell that guy is but seeing that video for his first video, I don't think I'd watch others lmao.


he's actually pretty famous. Jorge Cervantes. He grow videos that came out 10 years ago and he was wearing a deadlock wig in the videos. His video on outdoor has some good tips though. Where to place your plants. What kindo of natural dirt / ground is good etc...


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## AllDayToker (Oct 28, 2014)

hyroot said:


> he's actually pretty famous. Jorge Cervantes. He grow videos that came out 10 years ago and he was wearing a deadlock wig in the videos. His video on outdoor has some good tips though. Where to place your plants. What kindo of natural dirt / ground is good etc...


Well shit I respect my elders and that generation of growing styles, but I mean if I would of paid more attention in college I took a year of soil science I would know that much. I mean I remember some things haha, and to know where good ground is was not a hard thing to remember. My state is actually known for having the best soil for the country. 

I bet there is some good info if you watched them all but any person worried about their reputation might not be so laid back. Eh maybe they are and they don't give a fuck. I don't know haha. I just know I wouldn't do crazy videos like that, I like getting a good reputation around my parts because I build a good customer base. 

Any person that has taken some bs 1 hour business class knows loyal/returning customers are your bread and butter.


----------



## cannakis (Oct 28, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I have a couple compost bins in my back yard made from old pallets. Granted I don't pay them much attention as it is only used once a year on my veggie garden, but I am no where close to 18 days to get finished compost. Probably closer to 18 months. lol
> I'm guessing my C:N ratio is off.


haha yeah, well and the big thing at least for me is getting the Big pile wet.! The bigger pile the better, and turn in to out. Most compost bins are just that, a small bin, and only constitutes Cold composting which Does take 6-12 months to break down, and you lose a third of the original mass, And chunks of material left over.

Hot Composting--bigile at least cubic yard and carbon to nitrogen ratio of 50:1, nice and wet, provides same amount of mass, it will break down almost Anything including bones, and three weeks you have beautiful airy soil.!

Cold composting is common and good for confined areas, but time consuming. Hot composting you need the room and Is Very Laborious especially for those not accustomed to such hard work, and saves time. Though you can't "really" add more to it once it's going, but you could have a pile continually going if you wanted to tweak your turning and placement of the pile, or just have at least two piles which you use one to help feed the other with hot activator and make a new pile every 10 days with last weeks waste.


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## cannakis (Oct 28, 2014)

cannakis said:


> haha yeah, well and the big thing at least for me is getting the Big pile wet.! The bigger pile the better, and turn in to out. Most compost bins are just that, a small bin, and only constitutes Cold composting which Does take 6-12 months to break down, and you lose a third of the original mass, And chunks of material left over.
> 
> Hot Composting--big pile at least cubic yard and carbon to nitrogen ratio of 50:1, nice and wet, provides same amount of mass, it will break down almost Anything including bones, and three weeks you have beautiful airy soil.!
> 
> Cold composting is common and good for confined areas, but time consuming. Hot composting you need the room and Is Very Laborious especially for those not accustomed to such hard work, and saves time. Though you can't "really" add more to it once it's going, but you could have a pile continually going if you wanted to tweak your turning and placement of the pile, or just have at least two piles which you use one to help feed the other with hot activator and make a new pile every 10 days with last weeks waste.


But I Will say Even though earthworms Do move into a hot composted pile once its finished, I Am making an indoor worm bin to compost kitchen waste from work, and honestly worth having to Add to the hot composted compost. But you know now thinking about it the I am not adding More waste to the bins untilthey finish a batch... Right?


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 29, 2014)

Mohican said:


> You can get a good bit of variety from seeds of the same strain. That bagseed looks killer


Thank you bro, i planted another one of those bagseeds : ) i just took a whiff off of them damn The Church smells so dope, i dont know how im going to smoke this bud when it flowers, probably just look at it all the time !


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## smokey the cat (Oct 29, 2014)

bicit said:


> So you just use left over plant material from your garden and waste vegetable scraps? How is odor control with that? Nothing like alfalfa meal or rock dust or other special ingredients into the bin?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ETA: To be clear. I'm essentially looking for a list of ingredients that an individual could buy, mix together, and 'cook' to get good compost. A quick reference for a beginner, handicapped, or 'lazy' individual. I'm going through the threads and formulating my own idea, just wanted to see some other opinions. Looking for 'regular' methods because some people are put off by the idea of earthworms.


I give mine all the veg and fruit waste, coffee grounds, eggshells. Newsprint and cardboard layers. Bits of old plants and garden crap. Start piling this stuff, keep it a little moist and turn it occasionally if you're impatient - it'll turn into compost.

It wont get hot unless it's big enough, cold it takes a little longer. Treat it like a living organism and look to increase variety of inputs - kelp, rock dusts, oyster shell, comfrey, whatever. Compost thread here blows my mind.

Smell is minimal for me - avoid meat and fish. You wouldn't want a compost beside your front door, but any unused corner of earth will do.


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## Rrog (Oct 29, 2014)

If compost is good, Vermicompost is great. You can have a worm bin in a basement or side room.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Oct 29, 2014)

Been away for awhile, and I'm very pleased to see worm poo being mention still.


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 29, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Been away for awhile, and I'm very pleased to see worm poo being mention still.


Thought you died


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 29, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Been away for awhile, and I'm very pleased to see worm poo being mention still.


Red! How the hell are ya?




foreverflyhi said:


> Thought you died


LOL!!


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Oct 29, 2014)

Anyone have any recommendations on how to keep unwanted critters out of the worm bins? This time i think i am going to use a garbage can. So i can put a lid on it, before i relocated i had a bin going with no cover. Finally i realized i was not feeding my worms but my neighborhood rats. I really want to make good vermicompost! Anyone else find themselves feeding other stuff besides there worms?


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 29, 2014)

PeaceLoveCannabis said:


> Anyone have any recommendations on how to keep unwanted critters out of the worm bins? This time i think i am going to use a garbage can. So i can put a lid on it, before i relocated i had a bin going with no cover. Finally i realized i was not feeding my worms but my neighborhood rats. I really want to make good vermicompost! Anyone else find themselves feeding other stuff besides there worms?


gotta remember that its an ecosystem, there are little mites (not the bad ones), and bugs all sorts of critters in there, as far as I know they are symbiotic, there aren't too bad, if you have a fly or gnat problem, keep a thick layer of dry newspaper on top of the wet ones, they WILL have bugs though...


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Oct 29, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> gotta remember that its an ecosystem, there are little mites (not the bad ones), and bugs all sorts of critters in there, as far as I know they are symbiotic, there aren't too bad, if you have a fly or gnat problem, keep a thick layer of dry newspaper on top of the wet ones, they WILL have bugs though...


I know what you mean about the mites, and the little cridders of the soil. ( It seems like gnats are EVERYWHERE HERE). Do you keep yours open or closed? Like lid on, or off. Maybe a screen to keep large animals out? One time i even had a racoon in my garage looking at my worm bin! I guess i have bad luck with worms!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 29, 2014)

Malted grains anyone?



Sunflower, white millet, red proso millet, white & red wheats, 2 row, buckwheat, belgian, red milo, rye... Good thing I bought a new coffee grinder lol!

Peace!
P-


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2014)

sunflowers seeds were a bitch and took a while to puree . Turned the water brownish. Barely any foam (I know foam doesn't matter). The mung beans would produce foam almost like cotton candy.. The water would stay clear or maybe a little white. Anyway is this the norm with sunflower seeds? The plants seemed to respond well. Not praying as much as with mung beans.

whole foods has barley seed unhulled now. I'm going to pick some up. Maybe bake the rest of the sunflower seeds


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 29, 2014)

PeaceLoveCannabis said:


> I know what you mean about the mites, and the little cridders of the soil. ( It seems like gnats are EVERYWHERE HERE). Do you keep yours open or closed? Like lid on, or off. Maybe a screen to keep large animals out? One time i even had a racoon in my garage looking at my worm bin! I guess i have bad luck with worms!


I have an extremely low-tech wormbin, but they churn out the EWC like mad, but I just use smartpots, not sure the size, but you can use any size. Fill the bottom with a layer of old soil, then composted leaves, then old cannabis, then shredded newspaper/cardboard, then the normal worm food.
I can't say that my ways keep out raccoons because there is a un-fixed german shepard that live on my property and it pisses on the circumference of the property... lil fucker is good for that.... anyways it keeps the deer, foxes, raccoon, possums, etc, etc. away, so i'm not sure if my methods are good for everybody


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## Pattahabi (Oct 29, 2014)

Hyroot, these are malted by a malting house for optimal enzymes (sunflower seeds also). Beer people are crazy about their enzyme levels. This is going to be a little experiment, we'll see how it goes. I have only been able to find enzyme levels for the specific enzymes beer brewers are looking for (mainly Amylase). These are but a few enzymes that contribute to a soil's health: Amylase, Arylsulphatase, Β-Glucosidase, Cellulase, Chitinase, Dehydrogenase, Phosphatase, Protease, and Urease.

Peace!
P-


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## Rrog (Oct 29, 2014)

Greasemonkey- That's what I did a couple winters ago. 15 gallon Geopots on a base I made with wire mesh (for airflow underneath) and on 1" ball bearing "wheels."

Low tech and super effective. The aeration all around is biggie, IMHO


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 29, 2014)

Rrog said:


> Greasemonkey- That's what I did a couple winters ago. 15 gallon Geopots on a base I made with wire mesh (for airflow underneath) and on 1" ball bearing "wheels."
> 
> Low tech and super effective. The aeration all around is biggie, IMHO


works fabulous, and I didn't have to buy anything, except the worms, but they are loving it, and they eat like crazy.
I've found their number one favorite food is rotten apples, that have been frozen and then defrosted, I put them in a plastic bag and mush em in my hands, they are so soft from being frozen that they make a nice slimey rottony-like applesauce, they eat that stuff up like MAD, a gigantic writhing mass of worms, plus I've found that apples don't smell much when bad. Problem is they ignore all the other food when they get apples, they don't seem to like coffee grinds as much as i'd like them to, I drink coffee like crazy and I have to throw away a lot of grinds...
Avocados they like too


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 29, 2014)

hyroot said:


> sunflowers seeds were a bitch and took a while to puree . Turned the water brownish. Barely any foam (I know foam doesn't matter). The mung beans would produce foam almost like cotton candy.. The water would stay clear or maybe a little white. Anyway is this the norm with sunflower seeds? The plants seemed to respond well. Not praying as much as with mung beans.
> 
> whole foods has barley seed unhulled now. I'm going to pick some up. Maybe bake the rest of the sunflower seeds


I still think something was weird with your seeds, my tea was a little whitish-grey and the mashed up just fine, I don't puree (down to only one coffee grinder and its purpose is coffee) but mashing them up was easy enough.
My tea didn't froth a whole lot either though, smelled nice and the plants loved it, like I said before it brought a LOT of new growth on my lavender, roses, dahlia and jasmine plants.
In fact one of my roses bloomed again, which isn't normal this late for that rose. Weird.. but good


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Oct 29, 2014)

Sounds like a good method. I used to use an old hydro table, 8ft by 4ft like 6 inches deep. But obviously it was open on top, i used to feed my worms melons, that really seemed to be where they liked to lay there eggs. But in the end its the melon i found my little friend the rat munching on! i will try your method of worm farming, along with the garbage can method! We shall see what works, thanks for your input and everything!


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I still think something was weird with your seeds, my tea was a little whitish-grey and the mashed up just fine, I don't puree (down to only one coffee grinder and its purpose is coffee) but mashing them up was easy enough.
> My tea didn't froth a whole lot either though, smelled nice and the plants loved it, like I said before it brought a LOT of new growth on my lavender, roses, dahlia and jasmine plants.
> In fact one of my roses bloomed again, which isn't normal this late for that rose. Weird.. but good


I was just reading on a beer brewing forum about malting sunflower seeds. They were saying sunflower seeds have little to no carbs and have very high oil content. The oil content could be why there's no foam. If it really has no carbs. I don't want to use it anymore. It still has plenty of enzymes. I even seen sunflower micro brews before.. Either barley or mung beans. If anything I can order barley from build a soil. If the price is to high at whole foods.


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 29, 2014)

PeaceLoveCannabis said:


> I know what you mean about the mites, and the little cridders of the soil. ( It seems like gnats are EVERYWHERE HERE). Do you keep yours open or closed? Like lid on, or off. Maybe a screen to keep large animals out? One time i even had a racoon in my garage looking at my worm bin! I guess i have bad luck with worms!


I cut out a portion of the lids on my bins, then took an old screen door and cut out pieces to fit over the holes on the lids. Lil duct tape, and bango!


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I cut out a portion of the lids on my bins, then took an old screen door and cut out pieces to fit over the holes on the lids. Lil duct tape, and bango!
> 
> View attachment 3283172



I use weed mat fabric from home depot as a cover / lid


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 30, 2014)

Anybody experienced a white layer on their baby's stem ? The layer is still in the picture but after i took it i peeled it off perfectly what worries me is the white spots on the base of the stem & also amongst the new tiny leaves growing there is one tiny leaf that is yellow.. My Church strain seems to have no problems at all & is smelling more potent than this bagseed genetic. Any help will be appreciated thank you !


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## smokey the cat (Oct 30, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> The layer is still in the picture but after i took it i peeled it off perfectly what worries me is the white spots on the base of the stem & also amongst the new tiny leaves growing there is one tiny leaf that is yellow..


I always get bits of pureed sprouts sticking to my plants these days, haha. The other day I did a double take on a leaf cause it and the stem it was on was covered in alfalfa gnats - dried flecks of seed that look exactly like what you posted.


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 30, 2014)

Thanks for the post bro, i was surprised to peel a layer off of the stem, maybe that was its protection and a bad thing ? Bro i have lacto bacillus serum, i rate i should just spray it with a diluted mixture of water ? Peace


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## Pattahabi (Oct 30, 2014)

*UO-led research finds each tree species has a bacterial identity*

P-


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## Pattahabi (Oct 30, 2014)

This is a nice read on Bacillus thuringiensis. I didn't realize there were different strains for different pests.

http://www.ext.colostate.edu/pubs/insect/05556.html

_Unlike typical nerve-poison insecticides, Bt acts by producing proteins (delta-endotoxin, the "toxic crystal") that reacts with the cells of the gut lining of susceptible insects. These Bt proteins paralyze the digestive system, and the infected insect stops feeding within hours. Bt-affected insects generally die from starvation, which can take several days._

_Occasionally, the bacteria enter the insect's blood and reproduce within the insect. However, in most insects it is the reaction of the protein crystal that is lethal to the insect. Even dead bacteria containing the proteins are effective insecticides._

_The most commonly used strain of Bt (kurstaki strain) will kill only leaf- and needle-feeding caterpillars. In the past decade, Bt strains have been developed that control certain types of fly larvae (israelensis strain, or Bti). These are widely used against larvae of mosquitoes, black flies and fungus gnats._

_More recently, strains have been developed with activity against some leaf beetles, such as the Colorado potato beetle and elm leaf beetle (san diego strain, tenebrionis strain). Among the various Bt strains, insecticidal activity is specific. That is, Bt strains developed for mosquito larvae do not affect caterpillars. Development of Bt products is an active area and many manufacturers produce a variety of products. Effectiveness of the various formulations may differ._

P-


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## Rrog (Oct 30, 2014)

The good news is that VC is supremely microbially active. This undoubtedly part of the reason that VermiCompost has been shown to reduce pest infestation in the Phyllosphere (leaves). VC isn't in the leaves, and yet... 

See, if you provide the basic materials, the microbes tweak it to perfection if you let them. This isn't an artificial system like hydro where tweaking might very well get you somewhere. There is a direction the Plant + Soil Microbes want to take this and we should let them.


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## Bueno Time (Oct 30, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Anybody experienced a white layer on their baby's stem ? The layer is still in the picture but after i took it i peeled it off perfectly what worries me is the white spots on the base of the stem & also amongst the new tiny leaves growing there is one tiny leaf that is yellow.. My Church strain seems to have no problems at all & is smelling more potent than this bagseed genetic. Any help will be appreciated thank you !


Thats perfectly fine whats happening has happened to me many times. When the young seedling starts getting into veg mode the stem swells up and that outer layer splits and flakes/peels off. Nothing bad going on to worry about.


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 31, 2014)

Bueno Time said:


> Thats perfectly fine whats happening has happened to me many times. When the young seedling starts getting into veg mode the stem swells up and that outer layer splits and flakes/peels off. Nothing bad going on to worry about.


Thank you for the reply Bueno, i assumed it was just like a layer of skin lol then when i mentioned the dots on the stem i realised from searching other forums that its basically just the plants root tips coming out the base of the stem probably due to giving it a bit too much water.

If i could ask though, i have my main soil sitting in 4 x pots cooking for almost 4 weeks now, been watering with clean water & the occasional lacto B. watering, should i turn the soil in these pots or keep it as is ? Peace


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## foreverflyhi (Oct 31, 2014)

Keep as is , add companion crops!


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## hyroot (Oct 31, 2014)

is kefir the same as lacto bacillus ?


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Oct 31, 2014)

Is lacto bacillus just fermented milk? Does it say the cultures on the side of the bottle?


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 31, 2014)

hyroot said:


> is kefir the same as lacto bacillus ?


Not sure, but I know that Rrog drinks it every morning.


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## Rrog (Oct 31, 2014)

I do.

Lacto Bascillus is a broad range of bacteria, some of which is used in yogurt and Kefir. Kefir also has yeasts and other microbes. Over 25 different microbes, in Kefir you make.

This is not at all the same as the Kefir you buy.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 31, 2014)

We culture our own yogurt. Not even remotely close to what they sell in the stores.

P-


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 31, 2014)

PeaceLoveCannabis said:


> Is lacto bacillus just fermented milk? Does it say the cultures on the side of the bottle?


Made my own with a simple guide bro : ) use aerobic rice washed water and then add some of it to the milk and leave it anerobic


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## SouthernSoil* (Oct 31, 2014)

Rrog said:


> I do.
> 
> Lacto Bascillus is a broad range of bacteria, some of which is used in yogurt and Kefir. Kefir also has yeasts and other microbes. Over 25 different microbes, in Kefir you make.
> 
> This is not at all the same as the Kefir you buy.


Bro could i ask how much you mix with your water when you take it ?


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## Rrog (Oct 31, 2014)

I drink it straight. Well, actually I make a shake with fruit, couple raw eggs, honey, then the kefir. I drink about a quart a day


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## AllenHaze (Oct 31, 2014)

I use a three part system for my compost. One bucket for the bokashi which I then transfer to another container set up for hot composting / draining which is then added to my worm bin. Probably unnecessary steps but the bokashi bucket gives me somewhere to put scraps while I wait for the hot compost to be on its way and the worms to finish what they are working on.


Rrog said:


> I drink it straight. Well, actually I make a shake with fruit, couple raw eggs, honey, then the kefir. I drink about a quart a day


I throw the whole egg in. 5 raw eggs a day and two are shell included.


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## Rrog (Oct 31, 2014)

Shells don't create problems? I have visions of shitting little razor blades


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## AllenHaze (Oct 31, 2014)

Rrog said:


> Shells don't create problems? I have visions of shitting little razor blades


Haha. Yea, that's what I thought at first but I haven't had any problems. I can see the little razor blades you're thinking of and surprisingly even after a nice wipe  they haven't been abrasive. I've done a little research on it and I'm not alone in my venture lol.


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## Bueno Time (Oct 31, 2014)

Started some worm bins finally, 2 3 gallon rubbermaids with ~1lb red worms in each, actually 4 bins but double stacked with the bottom bins to catch any leachate. Pretty excited they came in the mail today, now just keep them fed and moist/not too moist and wait 3-4 months to collect some prime vermicompost. This is my first vermicomposting setup ever so I cant hardly wait to add some real black gold to my plants.

Drilled about close to 200 1/8" holes around the top of each bin, was going to start 4 bins with no drainage holes and just try to control moisture input but seeing more and more bins and youtube videos I think it was a better idea to run 2 bins with drainage holes. So I drilled 3 rows of 5 holes 1/8" holes, 15 total, evenly spaced on the bottom of each top bin and put a piece of screen material in the bottom to keep the worms and stuff from going out through the holes in the bottom. This way I shouldnt have an issue with murky bins or too much moisture collecting in the bottom. And I can always start more or bigger bins later.


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2014)

That is SO cool! See?? You can make VC anywhere!


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 1, 2014)

Bueno Time said:


> Started some worm bins finally, 2 3 gallon rubbermaids with ~1lb red worms in each, actually 4 bins but double stacked with the bottom bins to catch any leachate. Pretty excited they came in the mail today, now just keep them fed and moist/not too moist and wait 3-4 months to collect some prime vermicompost. This is my first vermicomposting setup ever so I cant hardly wait to add some real black gold to my plants.
> 
> Drilled about close to 200 1/8" holes around the top of each bin, was going to start 4 bins with no drainage holes and just try to control moisture input but seeing more and more bins and youtube videos I think it was a better idea to run 2 bins with drainage holes. So I drilled 3 rows of 5 holes 1/8" holes, 15 total, evenly spaced on the bottom of each top bin and put a piece of screen material in the bottom to keep the worms and stuff from going out through the holes in the bottom. This way I shouldnt have an issue with murky bins or too much moisture collecting in the bottom. And I can always start more or bigger bins later.



Awesome! The bins look great!

My only recomendation would be to add a nice layer of leaves on the top of the bedding. Red Wigglers like to do their work near the surface of the soil/bedding, but also like to be under some leaves or something. I use both leaves from outside and cannabis fan leaves from harvest time.


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## RedCarpetMatches (Nov 1, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Thought you died


BUAHAHAHA !!! Not me, just the mommies that went up to heaven. Getting some VC stocked up before moving. No more cocoon picking for me.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Nov 1, 2014)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> BUAHAHAHA !!! Not me, just the mommies that went up to heaven. Getting some VC stocked up before moving. No more cocoon picking for me.


Well suck me sideways and call me Betty. How are you Red?!


----------



## Bueno Time (Nov 1, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Awesome! The bins look great!
> 
> My only recomendation would be to add a nice layer of leaves on the top of the bedding. Red Wigglers like to do their work near the surface of the soil/bedding, but also like to be under some leaves or something. I use both leaves from outside and cannabis fan leaves from harvest time.


Wish I was still in the Midwest or an area that I could just go out in my yard and grab leaves and make some leaf mold too. All I have here is Oleander leaves and they are poisonous lol. Ive been using my canna leaves for mulching my tops of my grow bags. As more falls off I will use some for the worm bins too.

Thanks for the input!


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## hyroot (Nov 1, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Well suck me sideways and call me Betty. How are you Red?!


too much info. You and red need to keep that behind closed doors.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 1, 2014)

A question because I'm a student. I want to use my old leaves and stems in my bed. Is that good enough composting materials? Maybe a little castings to brings some diversity. Just a thought by a student.


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Nov 1, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> A question because I'm a student. I want to use my old leaves and stems in my bed. Is that good enough composting materials? Maybe a little castings to brings some diversity. Just a thought by a student.


You might find it easier to leave the stems out, they take a really long time to break down! But i dont think it would hurt anything to use it. Ive always used peat moss for my worms bedding.


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## NakedCannabis (Nov 1, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> A question because I'm a student. I want to use my old leaves and stems in my bed. Is that good enough composting materials? Maybe a little castings to brings some diversity. Just a thought by a student.


I Would very much use it. I have found when creating mulch from canna stems and leaves(well any really) is to fold it in your hand in a hot dog fashion and go to town with your trimming scissors. That really breaks up the stem and leaves. I then mulch that and topdress with some castings or not. Doesn't matter unless you need the biological activity. I usually water it with enzymes(coconut water, 6-row malted barley) and bacteria(ACT) instead because they will be breaking it down. But do topdress castings/compost when planting like cootz says.

I used to have another account but created a new one to hide my identity. So I kinda know what I am talking about


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## hyroot (Nov 1, 2014)

I planted one of the sunflower seeds. It was watered with a barley sst last night.


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## NakedCannabis (Nov 1, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I planted one of the sunflower seeds. It was watered with a barley sst last night.
> 
> View attachment 3285547
> View attachment 3285549


Amazing! I need to get into real SST. What is your schedule! The only thing deterring me is having to get up at 6AM to strain seeds.


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## hyroot (Nov 1, 2014)

NakedCannabis said:


> Amazing! I need to get into real SST. What is your schedule! The only thing deterring me is having to get up at 6AM to strain seeds.


 i use it once a week. soake seeds for 8-10 hours. rinse strain. rest on a wet cloth for 8-10 hours then repeat both steps. Then puree with water and add to bucket of water.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 2, 2014)

NakedCannabis said:


> I Would very much use it. I have found when creating mulch from canna stems and leaves(well any really) is to fold it in your hand in a hot dog fashion and go to town with your trimming scissors. That really breaks up the stem and leaves. I then mulch that and topdress with some castings or not. Doesn't matter unless you need the biological activity. I usually water it with enzymes(coconut water, 6-row malted barley) and bacteria(ACT) instead because they will be breaking it down. But do topdress castings/compost when planting like cootz says.
> 
> I used to have another account but created a new one to hide my identity. So I kinda know what I am talking about


Thanks for the reply. Im thinking in nature these annuals keep feeding off the previous harvest for eons. Maybe extract the resin and put the buds back in too. Throw some worms in my bed and let them go to town. Re-mineralize the soil and off they go.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 2, 2014)

hyroot said:


> i use it once a week. soake seeds for 8-10 hours. rinse strain. rest on a wet cloth for 8-10 hours then repeat both steps. Then puree with water and add to bucket of water.


I have a buddy who owns a brewery down here in S.D. Can i use the mash to top dress? Maybe a tea. Seems there would be a grip of enzymes in there. BTW really enjoy reading your posts and watching your videos.


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## hyroot (Nov 2, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> I have a buddy who owns a brewery down here in S.D. Can i use the mash to top dress? Maybe a tea. Seems there would be a grip of enzymes in there. BTW really enjoy reading your posts and watching your videos.



I don't know. I'd have to look into that. You should see if he'll hook you up with barley seed or flour


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## NakedCannabis (Nov 2, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Thanks for the reply. Im thinking in nature these annuals keep feeding off the previous harvest for eons. Maybe extract the resin and put the buds back in too. Throw some worms in my bed and let them go to town. Re-mineralize the soil and off they go.


Yep! You can grow anything with compost and rockdust(Minerals)


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## NakedCannabis (Nov 2, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> I have a buddy who owns a brewery down here in S.D. Can i use the mash to top dress? Maybe a tea. Seems there would be a grip of enzymes in there. BTW really enjoy reading your posts and watching your videos.


I use 6-row malted barley because it has the highest enzyme "count?" I grind it right before I use it and I get praying leaves  which I love! I bet he has some high enzyme sprouts(get them with the sprout, more for your soil)!


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 2, 2014)

hyroot said:


> too much info. You and red need to keep that behind closed doors.


 We let it all hang out you know that, you definitely know that lol


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## CannaBare (Nov 2, 2014)

Okay who here has ever used urine on their plants in veg? I havn't done it yet but it is all natural and free as hell so why not right?

I also found this on here with all the chemicals in your pee:

Alanine, total ..... 38 mg/day
Arginine, total ..... 32 mg/day
Ascorbic acid ..... 30 mg/day
Allantoin ..... 12 mg/day
Amino acids, total ..... 2.1 g/day
Bicarbonate ..... 140 mg/day
Biotin ..... 35 mg/day
Calcium ..... 23 mg/day
Creatinine ..... 1.4 mg/day
Cystine ..... 120 mg/day
Dopamine ..... 0.40 mg/day
Epinephrine ..... 0.01 mg/day
Folic acid ..... 4 mg/day
Glucose ..... 100 mg/day
Glutamic acid ..... 308 mg/day
Glycine ..... 455 mg/day
Inositol ..... 14 mg/day
Iodine ..... 0.25 mg/day
Iron ..... 0.5 mg/day
Lysine, total ..... 56 mg/day
Magnesium ..... 100 mg/day
Manganese ..... 0.5 mg/day
Methionine, total ..... 10 mg/day
Nitrogen, total ..... 15 g/day
Ornithine ..... 10 mg/day
Pantothenic acid ..... 3 mg/day
Phenylalanine ..... 21 mg/day
Phosphorus, organic ..... 9 mg/day
Potassium ..... 2.5 mg/day
Proteins, total ..... 5 mg/day
Riboflavin ..... 0.9 mg/day
Tryptophan, total ..... 28 mg/day
Tyrosine, total ..... 50 mg/day
Urea ..... 24.5 mg/day
Vitamin B6 ..... 100 mg/day
Vitamin B12 ..... 0.03 mg/day
Zinc ..... 1.4 mg/day

It is a lot of nitrogen which is why I only want to try for veg. But it could be used in smaller amounts (1:20-40) along with kelp for flowering as a good all around fertilizer (if you needed it). Anyone have experience with urine in rols?


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Nov 2, 2014)

As long as your not against putting non veganic amendments in your soil, i guess you could use pee. Just remember most people are not 100% healthy (or even close to it). If you think about it peeing and sweating are a way for your body to release toxins like from hardcore drugs, or prescriptions. If your a healthy person, i guess go for it! I have seen people on here try this i think thought.


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## hyroot (Nov 2, 2014)

if you can handle the smell too. A few years ago. My cat pissed on one of my plants. It was a foot tall. The cat piss killed the plant. Super nitrogen burn. I tried flushing. Day by day it got worse and worse. 5 days later after the cat pissed on it, it was dead.


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 2, 2014)

I know this Rasta guy, he dumps kelp into a bucket and takes a slash or two into it, leaves it out to rot and do its thing, and dumps this into the holes a few weeks before planting along with some rotten fish heads. It is the only thing he ever feeds them and they are always taller than his roof, 2.5 to 3 kilos a plant.


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## CannaBare (Nov 2, 2014)

I am going to give it a shot. I feel like I am noticing a deficiency in my plants coming on. Dang store bought castings... I'm going to dilute 25:1 and see how they do. I'll let everyone know


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## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 2, 2014)

Wow piss. New one on me.


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 3, 2014)

Whenever I have a fungal infection on my fruit trees, pissing at the base sorts them out. Rust on citeus in particular. If you can aim a little high and hit the leaves it literally washes rust right off. Think about it logically, what do plants get to eat most often? Dead plants, animal urine, animal excrement, and very very rarely by comparison decomposing animals. I'd saypiss is one of the planets main food sources?


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## cannakis (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> I know this Rasta guy, he dumps kelp into a bucket and takes a slash or two into it, leaves it out to rot and do its thing, and dumps this into the holes a few weeks before planting along with some rotten fish heads. It is the only thing he ever feeds them and they are always taller than his roof, 2.5 to 3 kilos a plant.


yes Sir!!! i Love that shit! Good Old Traditional Methods! The Best.!


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## cannakis (Nov 4, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Whenever I have a fungal infection on my fruit trees, pissing at the base sorts them out. Rust on citeus in particular. If you can aim a little high and hit the leaves it literally washes rust right off. Think about it logically, what do plants get to eat most often? Dead plants, animal urine, animal excrement, and very very rarely by comparison decomposing animals. I'd saypiss is one of the planets main food sources?


very true! and i love the fungicide tip, thanks.!


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## Pattahabi (Nov 4, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Wow piss. New one on me.


Lmao, Guppygal swears by it! 

I don't understand why would you douse your plants with human waste? Are people that desperate for fertilizers? What's wrong with an alfalfa tea?

Baffled and confused...

P-


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## Pattahabi (Nov 4, 2014)

I love this, leave it to Ted:

http://ed.ted.com/periodic-videos?utm_source=TED-Ed+Subscribers&utm_campaign=92b1054add-2013_09_219_19_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_1aaccced48-92b1054add-43141565

P-


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## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 4, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Lmao, Guppygal swears by it!
> 
> I don't understand why would you douse your plants with human waste? Are people that desperate for fertilizers? What's wrong with an alfalfa tea?
> 
> ...


 I got you strange method. Now your alfalfa tea seems ideal. Vegan and potent. What else do you add?


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## Pattahabi (Nov 4, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> I got you strange method. Now your alfalfa tea seems ideal. Vegan and potent. What else do you add?


Try this, add 1c alfalfa, 1/2c kelp meal, 5 gallons non chlorinated water and bubble for 24 hours. I use this straight, but I might dilute down 1:1 with water to start with just to make sure it's not too much.

P-


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## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 4, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Try this, add 1c alfalfa, 1/2c kelp meal, 5 gallons non chlorinated water and bubble for 24 hours. I use this straight, but I might dilute down 1:1 with water to start with just to make sure it's not too much.
> 
> P-


What brands do you use? Do you use it in veg and flower? I really would love to grow comfrey and use it for mulch and tea. Still researching to see if it does well in a smart pot.

I'm building my first ROLS soil. Going to try used Happy Frog, used coco, ancient forest, worm gold plus and BAS nutrient pack. Going to make a bed out of my 2x4 tray. Suggestions anyone?


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## Pattahabi (Nov 5, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> What brands do you use? Do you use it in veg and flower? I really would love to grow comfrey and use it for mulch and tea. Still researching to see if it does well in a smart pot.
> 
> I'm building my first ROLS soil. Going to try used Happy Frog, used coco, ancient forest, worm gold plus and BAS nutrient pack. Going to make a bed out of my 2x4 tray. Suggestions anyone?


Kelp meal is for the most part kelp meal (not liquid), look for Ascophyllum nodosum on the label and you should be good to go , alfalfa, make sure it is organic, or at least non sprayed.

Imo the true power in comfrey lies in it's ability to pull nutrients out of the earth with it's massive tap root. Therefore, while comfrey is great, growing it in a container isn't quite the same the way I see it.

I'm working on sugar coating things... those are not the base materials I would use. However, they will most likely result in a final product. I try to shoot for something like peat/aeration/high quality humus (aka ewc or vermicompost) between 33%/33%/33% and 50%/25%/25%. From there I add amendments such as kelp meal, crab meal, rock dust, neem, etc.

I think you will be happy going with a 2 x 4' bed!

Peace!
P-


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## Mohican (Nov 5, 2014)

Made some Jesus OG coconut oil:



No urea used.

Cheers,
Mo


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Lmao, Guppygal swears by it!
> 
> I don't understand why would you douse your plants with human waste? Are people that desperate for fertilizers? What's wrong with an alfalfa tea?
> 
> ...


 I have gotten used to organics not always being the most fragrant of practices, but urine is crossing a line to me personally. Once a year outside by a fruit tree or whatever, no hassle, but for any kind of container I shudder at the thought...EDIT: some of you guys might find this interesting, but you now get Spinosad in tablet form for your dogs. It keeps ticks and fleas off them for six weeks. Our Aussie has a flea allergy so it has been a helluva battle she can't handle one. In desperation I finally tried this stuff, man, is she a happy doggy. First time in her life her skin is perfect. Considering using it for our other dogs, keeping them clean can become a serious labor in summer...


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Nov 5, 2014)

This might be really dumb, but will spinosad hurt your dogs in anyway? I've seen it fuck up a garden when it was used in to high of concentration!


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## Pattahabi (Nov 5, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> I have gotten used to organics not always being the most fragrant of practices, but urine is crossing a line to me personally. Once a year outside by a fruit tree or whatever, no hassle, but for any kind of container I shudder at the thought...EDIT: some of you guys might find this interesting, but you now get Spinosad in tablet form for your dogs. It keeps ticks and fleas off them for six weeks. Our Aussie has a flea allergy so it has been a helluva battle she can't handle one. In desperation I finally tried this stuff, man, is she a happy doggy. First time in her life her skin is perfect. Considering using it for our other dogs, keeping them clean can become a serious labor in summer...


Lmao, I totally agree, especially with the once in a while outside, not inside. I get some looks from the GF with some of the stuff I do. Pretty sure she'd think I'd lost it if I started peeing on my plants.

Interesting about the spinosad as well! Who would have knew it could work that way?!

Peace!
P-


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## Mohican (Nov 5, 2014)

Tea Tree soap is great for keeping dogs pest free and it smells great!

My father would use cow piss to fertilize the lawn back in the day. Big old bottle of Cow Urea! Grass loved it. Instant nitrogen. 

Seems like piss would have too much salt in it.


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Lmao, I totally agree, especially with the once in a while outside, not inside. I get some looks from the GF with some of the stuff I do. Pretty sure she'd think I'd lost it if I started peeing on my plants.
> 
> Interesting about the spinosad as well! Who would have knew it could work that way?!
> 
> ...


AHH, yeah, the looks I get from my girl... my teas especially... "so you are making special water for your plants?!"--- "yes darling"--- "and you are feeding them rotten pieces of other plants?"--- "yes darling"---- "and now you are making something with your worms?"=== "yes darling"---"why are you giving them molasses?"-- "whats the aloe for"--- "why are you bubbling it for so long?"
I gotta school that pretty girl on some stuff...


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## Pattahabi (Nov 5, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> AHH, yeah, the looks I get from my girl... my teas especially... "so you are making special water for your plants?!"--- "yes darling"--- "and you are feeding them rotten pieces of other plants?"--- "yes darling"---- "and now you are making something with your worms?"=== "yes darling"---"why are you giving them molasses?"-- "whats the aloe for"--- "why are you bubbling it for so long?"
> I gotta school that pretty girl on some stuff...


Lmao! I have to give my girl mad props. She puts up with all kinds of crap becaue of the grow room. Everything from me saying, I'll be right there... 2 hours later lol! To me covering the washing machine in plants and dirt, etc. The teas, bokashi bucket, worm bin... Damn, as I'm talking, I'm thinking I need to go grab her some flowers and make her dinner, she deserves it! 



P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Lmao! I have to give my girl mad props. She puts up with all kinds of crap becaue of the grow room. Everything from me saying, I'll be right there... 2 hours later lol! To me covering the washing machine in plants and dirt, etc. The teas, bokashi bucket, worm bin... Damn, as I'm talking, I'm thinking I need to go grab her some flowers and make her dinner, she deserves it!
> 
> 
> 
> P-


Ahh yes... get her flowers and make her dinner... In my humble humble opinion... girls that get spoiled....tend to return the favors....


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## Pattahabi (Nov 5, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Ahh yes... get her flowers and make her dinner... In my humble humble opinion... girls that get spoiled....tend to return the favors....


Lmao! I spoil her often. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. I know how that works! 

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 5, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Lmao! I spoil her often. I may be dumb, but I'm not stupid. I know how that works!
> 
> P-


a wise wise man once told me, "you buy her chocolates, and flowers, and lingerie to get her to be your girlfriend, right? Then you damn well better KEEP doing those things to KEEP her"
same wise man that once said, "you want to be a good lover? OK, then go as slow as you possibly can, and then cut that pace in half"


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## Mohican (Nov 5, 2014)

Just make sure she finishes - slow or fast


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 5, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Just make sure she finishes - slow or fast


actually, not to be too informative, but that I especially apply to um... when i'm uhem..."done under"


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 5, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Ahh yes... get her flowers and make her dinner... In my humble humble opinion... girls that get spoiled....tend to return the favors....


Nononono, girls that get spoiled accept the new, higher standard, and will damn well hold you to it whether your wallet likes it or not lmfao


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 5, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Tea Tree soap is great for keeping dogs pest free and it smells great!
> 
> My father would use cow piss to fertilize the lawn back in the day. Big old bottle of Cow Urea! Grass loved it. Instant nitrogen.
> 
> Seems like piss would have too much salt in it.


I am allergic to tea tree. It sucks. I have seen the stuff cure damnnear anything to do with skin. Not me, I get a lovely rash.


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## Mohican (Nov 6, 2014)

Sorry! I usually avoid giving out advice for that very reason.

I finally finished pulling the seeds out of the Jesus OG and Jillybean cross:



Quite a haul! And I got a cup of coconut oil out of the flowers 


Cheers,
Mo


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## m4s73r (Nov 6, 2014)

So I spent a little while going through this thread. The conversation seems to drift a lot. I have a few questions.
Has anyone done a yearly cost analysis?
The root core that you pull up when you no till, is that recycled somehow or just tossed? could i throw it in a sock and use it for a ACT?
For me time is money/free time. All the teas, and foiler feedings, top dressings, is cost, time, complications, and resources. Not as bad as other grow methods, but something to consider. So is there a method that once my soil is mixed i can do one or the other? are any required?
I am in 12 3.5 gallon straight perlite hempys. (8 in bloom 4 in veg) My overhead is low in the medium. i lose a cubic foot per year in perlite. So i spend $16 for super coarse perlite a year. I dont really believe in all the bloom additives and all that so i keep it simple in my nutrients of a tsp each of AN 3part Ph Perfect per gallon every other watering rooted clone to harvest. I dont monitor my ph. And I flush each plant in its last 1.5 weeks. I spend $45 shipped every other month for the nutes. spending in total $286/year in nutrients and medium.
With ROLS-noTill, can I improve on that?

In total I will cut the number of blooming plants to 4, up my pot size to 7 gallon fabric pots. Im a vert grower. so ill be vegging them untopped to 2-2.5 ft with a final bloom height of 4.5 to 5 ft. I will also have 6 cuttings in 2 gallon transplant fabric pots.
Giving me a total of 40 gallons or 5.3 cubic feet. Id make 6 total. So after all my pots are filled, ill have roughly 5 gallons left of the soil. 
Im all about just growing for me. So keeping the month to month cost down is what Im looking for. And not having the need to dispose of used root balls from FFOF every 60 days was also important to me. Hempys have been a winner winner chicken dinner for me. but im all about that room dialing. If i can lower my yearly cost and have organic buds that would be icing on the cake. 

WTF with the food refrences, im stoned.


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## smokey the cat (Nov 6, 2014)

m4s73r said:


> So I spent a little while going through this thread. The conversation seems to drift a lot. I have a few questions.
> Has anyone done a yearly cost analysis?
> The root core that you pull up when you no till, is that recycled somehow or just tossed? could i throw it in a sock and use it for a ACT?
> For me time is money/free time. All the teas, and foiler feedings, top dressings, is cost, time, complications, and resources. Not as bad as other grow methods, but something to consider. So is there a method that once my soil is mixed i can do one or the other? are any required?


Sounds like you've got a nice low effort system sorted already. Kudos - I love seeing growers eschew the bullshit and keep it fucking simple 

For the stump&rootball, ideally just it leave in place and smack the next plant in next to it. Healthy soil consumes all dead roots within a few weeks and the stump will soon fall and rot down amongst the mulch. The stump is not waste - that's free fertilizer 

Proper living soil will definitely give your plants better terpenoids and not need flushing, and it really doesn't need all that much ongoing help. ACT are unnecessary once the soil biology is working well - maybe useful when establishing fungal and bacterial populations in new soil (a lot of the no-till gurus don't bother with them at all and just use plain compost/EWC as a topdress). Top dress foods only when the plants show they want it, or once per cycle. No teas are really necessary if your soil is good - but I recommend occasional malted grains or sprouted seeds for the massive enzyme boost, and Coot's favourites of fulvic & silica, and neem etc for IPM

The biggest problem is getting good compost and/or worm castings. Ideally your own - which takes time and space, but at zero ongoing cost which is nice. PITA to setup, granted.

Assuming you have an established grow and access to your own free compost and EWC, there's no way you'll spend $280 a year on nutes for a no-till ROLS garden. That's my reckons  - I'm slowly getting all my stuff sorted. *It is a lot to buy at first* - my missus has perfected her eye rolling whenever I announce the weed garden needs a sack of rock dust, or hardwood charcoal, or neem granules, or gypsum, or...

If you have an outdoor garden you can grow a lot of your own inputs like comfrey, and plenty of people scavenge their own rock dusts, kelp and crustacean shells, charcoals etc


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## m4s73r (Nov 6, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Sounds like you've got a nice low effort system sorted already. Kudos - I love seeing growers eschew the bullshit and keep it fucking simple
> 
> For the stump&rootball, ideally just it leave in place and smack the next plant in next to it. Healthy soil consumes all dead roots within a few weeks and the stump will soon fall and rot down amongst the mulch. The stump is not waste - that's free fertilizer
> 
> ...


Thanks, but yeah 280 a year is to much imo lol. Im frugal. If i can top dress with vermicompost and just water the plant start to finish and save money im in sweet organic heaven. 
Awesome about the root ball. I hate having to throw things away unnecessarily. 
I was thinking a worm bin. Had one as a kid. I would think i would make enough to top dress 4 plants every other month. 
"_malted grains or sprouted seeds for the massive enzyme boost, and Coot's favourites of fulvic & silica, and neem etc for IPM_" Yep just glazed right over all that. Is all that stuff for teas? Damn we just threw some manure and a shovel full of the dirt we"re growing in and brewed that. You got a whole list of things. Lists costs money. lol 
I have been thinking about planting some Aloe for my clones. 

does anyone plant any micro grass or ground moss or something around their plants to keep the top of the soil from drying out under hid lights? Ive seen just using like barley, straw, or rock.


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## anzohaze (Nov 6, 2014)

m4s73r said:


> Thanks, but yeah 280 a year is to much imo lol. Im frugal. If i can top dress with vermicompost and just water the plant start to finish and save money im in sweet organic heaven.
> Awesome about the root ball. I hate having to throw things away unnecessarily.
> I was thinking a worm bin. Had one as a kid. I would think i would make enough to top dress 4 plants every other month.
> "_malted grains or sprouted seeds for the massive enzyme boost, and Coot's favourites of fulvic & silica, and neem etc for IPM_" Yep just glazed right over all that. Is all that stuff for teas? Damn we just threw some manure and a shovel full of the dirt we"re growing in and brewed that. You got a whole list of things. Lists costs money. lol
> ...


Cover crops clover n such yes most do it


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 6, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Nononono, girls that get spoiled accept the new, higher standard, and will damn well hold you to it whether your wallet likes it or not lmfao


hahahaha, ahhh yes, but not the "keepers"... but yeah, I gotcha there. Good point indeed


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## anzohaze (Nov 6, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hahahaha, ahhh yes, but not the "keepers"... but yeah, I gotcha there. Good point indeed


 i think what grease is trying to say spoil him and you can keep him he will treat you right. He will def keep your stomach full and balls empty thabks for that grease it was good. NO HOMO.....


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 6, 2014)

anzohaze said:


> i think what grease is trying to say spoil him and you can keep him he will treat you right. He will def keep your stomach full and balls empty thabks for that grease it was good. NO HOMO.....


ahhh man, now I gotta shower after reading that


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 6, 2014)

m4s73r said:


> Thanks, but yeah 280 a year is to much imo lol. Im frugal. If i can top dress with vermicompost and just water the plant start to finish and save money im in sweet organic heaven.
> Awesome about the root ball. I hate having to throw things away unnecessarily.
> I was thinking a worm bin. Had one as a kid. I would think i would make enough to top dress 4 plants every other month.
> "_malted grains or sprouted seeds for the massive enzyme boost, and Coot's favourites of fulvic & silica, and neem etc for IPM_" Yep just glazed right over all that. Is all that stuff for teas? Damn we just threw some manure and a shovel full of the dirt we"re growing in and brewed that. You got a whole list of things. Lists costs money. lol
> ...


I use redwood moss that I take off of fallen rotting redwoods or stumps, and it does a great job not only keeping the topsoil moist but I also like to sprinkle mychorrizae on the topsoil and then stick the moss on it, and at the end the roots grow through it all and it's sorta lke a green toupee for the plant.
Funny I was just talking to pattahabi about that


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## smokey the cat (Nov 6, 2014)

m4s73r said:


> If i can top dress with vermicompost and just water the plant start to finish and save money im in sweet organic heaven.
> 
> I was thinking a worm bin.
> 
> I have been thinking about planting some Aloe for my clones.


Sounds like you've got the right idea - plant some aloe, build a compost and/or worm farm. Everything else you can figure out as you go



> does anyone plant any micro grass or ground moss or something around their plants to keep the top of the soil from drying out under hid lights? Ive seen just using like barley, straw, or rock.


Lazy man's solution: cover the top of your pots with old yellowed fan leaves. Just a leaf or two on the soil surface is enough to start holding water in the topsoil. With no cover the top couple of inches in my pots used to be dead, now there's roots on the surface reaching up to the mulch layer.


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 6, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Sounds like you've got the right idea - plant some aloe, build a compost and/or worm farm. Everything else you can figure out as you go
> 
> 
> 
> Lazy man's solution: cover the top of your pots with old yellowed fan leaves. Just a leaf or two on the soil surface is enough to start holding water in the topsoil. With no cover the top couple of inches in my pots used to be dead, now there's roots on the surface reaching up to the mulch layer.


well, I wouldn't say its a lazy mans solution, your method has it's advantages too, my dis advantage is the moss isn't breaking down, so it doesn't provide anything to the plant, however i'm ok with that, I use it more to promote the type of moisture I want, your method will also add microbes to the soil, hmm now that I think about it, I wonder what type of critter-microbes live in the moss.... after all they are attached to decaying redwoods, maybe some good microbes and some humus? Hmmm
Your method works just fine, in fact I've done that very thing, I think most of us growers that like to mulch probably found out that it works well on accident, usually with doing exactly what you do, I know I did, like you, I noticed the roots getting closer and closer to the soil with the mulch, so I went with it, and now when I harvest the plant, I re-use the moss, just gotta "scalp" her, peels off with the roots


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## Bueno Time (Nov 6, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Sounds like you've got the right idea - plant some aloe, build a compost and/or worm farm. Everything else you can figure out as you go
> 
> 
> 
> Lazy man's solution: cover the top of your pots with old yellowed fan leaves. Just a leaf or two on the soil surface is enough to start holding water in the topsoil. With no cover the top couple of inches in my pots used to be dead, now there's roots on the surface reaching up to the mulch layer.


Nice suggestions smokey, I got the aloe growing in the yard and just started worm bins. This is my first run mulching and now I wonder wtf I was doing without it the whole time. Keep the soil moist and alive to the top of the container and roots are visible on the surface under the mulch. I used some white clover seeds and once they sprouted added a layer of dead old canna leaves and have added some fresher ones as they fall off the plants or I undertrim the canopy. Working real well so far. Never growing organic without mulch again.


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 6, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Made some Jesus OG coconut oil:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Piss! Shocker


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 6, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Sorry! I usually avoid giving out advice for that very reason.
> 
> I finally finished pulling the seeds out of the Jesus OG and Jillybean cross:
> 
> ...


need a tester? Would love to run both strains. The cross of those two is epic.Whats a good trait to look for in a male?


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 6, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Kelp meal is for the most part kelp meal (not liquid), look for Ascophyllum nodosum on the label and you should be good to go , alfalfa, make sure it is organic, or at least non sprayed.
> 
> Imo the true power in comfrey lies in it's ability to pull nutrients out of the earth with it's massive tap root. Therefore, while comfrey is great, growing it in a container isn't quite the same the way I see it.
> 
> ...


I'm trying to build my base with leftovers from previous runs. That's why the happy frog and used coco. Do you think over the course of time the mix will improve? With the addition of EWC topdressing and a cover crop.


----------



## Pattahabi (Nov 6, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> I'm trying to build my base with leftovers from previous runs. That's why the happy frog and used coco. Do you think over the course of time the mix will improve? With the addition of EWC topdressing and a cover crop.


Hey OLC! Ime soils do get better with time! Granted that is given decent inputs were used to start with. But, I've seen this several times as I've reused soil and started new. 

P-


----------



## Pattahabi (Nov 6, 2014)

Bueno Time said:


> Nice suggestions smokey, I got the aloe growing in the yard and just started worm bins. This is my first run mulching and now I wonder wtf I was doing without it the whole time. Keep the soil moist and alive to the top of the container and roots are visible on the surface under the mulch. I used some white clover seeds and once they sprouted added a layer of dead old canna leaves and have added some fresher ones as they fall off the plants or I undertrim the canopy. Working real well so far. Never growing organic without mulch again.


I'm going to give you a megaphone!!! Seriously, mulches make a HUGE difference ime! I wouldn't dream of growing without one now!

P-


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 6, 2014)

Hey P, I live in the city with few mulch options. Can i just use old stems and leaves? Just create a potential layer of humus on top. This plant is millions of years old. Getting minerals from the soil and its great grand parents decomposed leaves and stems. Maybe a little earthworm poop and insect crap. And if its really really lucky a piece of dinosaur shit In nature does this plant live primarily off its great grandparents? So thinking of composting the whole plant. Minus the resin of course via water extraction. See what happens.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Nov 6, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hahahaha, ahhh yes, but not the "keepers"... but yeah, I gotcha there. Good point indeed


As long as they don't herm its all good rofl...


----------



## Mad Hamish (Nov 6, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Sounds like you've got the right idea - plant some aloe, build a compost and/or worm farm. Everything else you can figure out as you go
> 
> 
> 
> Lazy man's solution: cover the top of your pots with old yellowed fan leaves. Just a leaf or two on the soil surface is enough to start holding water in the topsoil. With no cover the top couple of inches in my pots used to be dead, now there's roots on the surface reaching up to the mulch layer.


If you have a fungus gnat rich area, I would recommend hot mulching for exactly these reasons you mention. It is the top inch of soil pretty much that holds the eggs, so letting it dry does a fantastic job of breaking the gnat life cycle. It is a pain not mulching, you have to water twice to make sure you got all dry pockets out, but it can be a fantastic measure for out of control gnats.


----------



## Pattahabi (Nov 6, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Hey P, I live in the city with few mulch options. Can i just use old stems and leaves? Just create a potential layer of humus on top. This plant is millions of years old. Getting minerals from the soil and its great grand parents decomposed leaves and stems. Maybe a little earthworm poop and insect crap. And if its really really lucky a piece of dinosaur shit In nature does this plant live primarily off its great grandparents? So thinking of composting the whole plant. Minus the resin of course via water extraction. See what happens.


I absolutely use the fan leaves for mulch and the stems. You won't believe how quickly they break down!

P-


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 6, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> If you have a fungus gnat rich area, I would recommend hot mulching for exactly these reasons you mention. It is the top inch of soil pretty much that holds the eggs, so letting it dry does a fantastic job of breaking the gnat life cycle. It is a pain not mulching, you have to water twice to make sure you got all dry pockets out, but it can be a fantastic measure for out of control gnats.


Does neem cake kill Fungus Gnat eggs and larvae?


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 6, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I absolutely use the fan leaves for mulch and the stems. You won't believe how quickly they break down!
> 
> P-


Recycle Grower!! P, do you have an active grow journal?


----------



## Mad Hamish (Nov 7, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Does neem cake kill Fungus Gnat eggs and larvae?


BTi dunks are your friend, cheap as chips and they don't muck about. Mosquito dunks, gnatrol, diPel, all BTi. I have never used neem cake myself, Neem Tree is actually endangered and it is pretty much American plantations still harvesting often and large amounts. Neem is becoming a tad hard to work with over the rest of the world, over here is is a speciality import


----------



## Mad Hamish (Nov 7, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> I absolutely use the fan leaves for mulch and the stems. You won't believe how quickly they break down!
> 
> P-


I use the boys as mulch. The girls they love it. Man eaters the lot of them.


----------



## leonard luis (Nov 7, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> maybe it's possible stows setup is in good shape? I've literally only made two SST batches, but for me I used it on plants (non-cannabis) that had *visible* problems, so for me I was more trying it as a stress reduction/remedy for the issues I was having, I have a lot of great plants in containers (I rent, so I don't wanna put them in ground) so like I said, the sad unhappy plants showed a marked profound difference in health, so maybe it's just harder to see a difference on a healthy plant? I don't know?
> the vegging plants I used it on, look beautiful, but they didn't have any issues to start with...


maybe the healthy plant didn´t need it


----------



## leonard luis (Nov 7, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Yeah, I typically I don't spray my flowering ladies, but at the time (years ago) I was told it worked wonders on mites, and it didn't, it fried the pistils and the mites didn't even slow down, so that was kind of a bad first impression, and since then i'm probably just holding a grudge, contrary to cliché's tied to being a pothead, I have a good memory...
> I do like to spray my vegging plants... with anything and everything, and it seems to have only positive effects, and since I started spraying AACTs on my girls the mites have slowed down, course its getting cooler and that could be simply from them not liking humid conditions, but damnit, looks to be working, could *very* well likely be all in my head. I just wish I had the time, energy, space, and money to setup three different growing conditions, maybe four, and then I could truly tell what does and does NOT work, I could do veganics, pure organics, no-till, so on, and so on, but until then it's almost impossible to decipher what is working and isn't, I can only tell yu that as a whole, its working, but hell, it could be the plants thriving in *spite *of what i'm doing. I doun't think that's the case, but who knows, especially since the plants look pretty happy, so who's to say what that is from...
> plus I coulda swore I read in a couple horticulture books that plants liked tea-foliar feeds..


have u tried spraying with "mollasses/milk/water" solution?


----------



## leonard luis (Nov 7, 2014)

bicit said:


> So you just use left over plant material from your garden and waste vegetable scraps? How is odor control with that? Nothing like alfalfa meal or rock dust or other special ingredients into the bin?
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> ETA: To be clear. I'm essentially looking for a list of ingredients that an individual could buy, mix together, and 'cook' to get good compost. A quick reference for a beginner, handicapped, or 'lazy' individual. I'm going through the threads and formulating my own idea, just wanted to see some other opinions. Looking for 'regular' methods because some people are put off by the idea of earthworms.


dig a hole (atleast 50cm Deep), throw in foodwaste and some soil, spray with milk/mollasses, continue like this, top (maybe 20 cm) the hole with soil and leafs, pee, spray milk/mollasses....... a month or 2 later, plant and grow a monster (well, haven´t tried it myself yet but just trhowing this in as it sound easy and good)


----------



## leonard luis (Nov 7, 2014)

hyroot said:


> if you can handle the smell too. A few years ago. My cat pissed on one of my plants. It was a foot tall. The cat piss killed the plant. Super nitrogen burn. I tried flushing. Day by day it got worse and worse. 5 days later after the cat pissed on it, it was dead.


pee has to be diluted with water........ undiluted pee can be used to kill weed


----------



## Mad Hamish (Nov 7, 2014)

leonard luis said:


> have u tried spraying with "mollasses/milk/water" solution?


I see this horrible concoction recommended every now and then. Why on earth would you want sour rotting milk smelling mould infested bud? Because this is what you will get. Milk, raw organic matter, a day in the sun is enough to get some nasty stuff happening, molasses, basic sugar, great food for any quick bad microbe already present, definitely going to speed up your fermentation that will be going down. It is the latter that produces microbes that are capable of battling molds and fungi, but you don't want the process happening on the plant. Those things, milk, molasses, and water, are three of the four ingredients needed to produce a lactobacillus or lactic acid bacteria serum. Simply combining them and spraying borders on the ludicrous. What is the point of an organic measure that ruins the bud? Personally I cant recommend LAB enough, it really beats down any mold. But put the week it takes to make it properly into making it properly. Alternatively, soak some Bokashi in water for an hour or two, strain and spray. Or make a Bokashi tea, dilite and spray. You make a Bokashi tea just like ACT but with bokashi instead of EWC. Or get a bottle of EM-1 and use that. These are all methods to supply an abundance of a competitive microbe, not simply supplying food stock and hoping that the lactobacillus breeds faster than the mold. I apologise for jumping on you with this one, but i do feel your recommendation was not very well thought through. Organic technologies are more within grasp than any other, but we still neednto apply them properly. Working with microbes against microbes you want to have as pure amculture as possible, always.


----------



## leonard luis (Nov 7, 2014)

this was what convinced me (to try soon ) http://www.motherearthnews.com/organic-gardening/milk-and-molasses-magic-zbcz1402.aspx#axzz3HjaX3cW9


----------



## Pattahabi (Nov 7, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Recycle Grower!! P, do you have an active grow journal?


Hell yeah! Waste not, want not lol! I don't have a journal right atm. I might throw one up in the future. Especially if I end up going with the new room set up I've been planning. 

Peace!
P-


----------



## bicit (Nov 7, 2014)

leonard luis said:


> dig a hole (atleast 50cm Deep), throw in foodwaste and some soil, spray with milk/mollasses, continue like this, top (maybe 20 cm) the hole with soil and leafs, pee, spray milk/mollasses....... a month or 2 later, plant and grow a monster (well, haven´t tried it myself yet but just trhowing this in as it sound easy and good)


Its a good idea, but doesn't work if you dont have someplace to to dig a hole, or you physicaly can't dig a hole.

On a side note, has anyone had their compost tested for nutritional content and/or biological levels?


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 7, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> Hell yeah! Waste not, want not lol! I don't have a journal right atm. I might throw one up in the future. Especially if I end up going with the new room set up I've been planning.
> 
> Peace!
> P-


I'm ready to go no bottles. Just used my last earth juice. Sick and tired of measuring nutes. Growing with only a Area 51 xgs190.Just havested about 150g of new diamond og cut i purchased. Smoking for fist time. Not bad at all. Its super frosty, but buds are not tight and hard like an HPS. But still super happy that it came from my closet and not some commercial grower sraying Avid all over. Im actually really baked. Love this hobby. The growing is better than the medicating. Of course I only garden when im medicatred.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Nov 7, 2014)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Of course I only garden when im medicatred.


And post.


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Nov 7, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> And post.


So funny! But correct. Love talking while medicating. Newbe here, more like a troller


----------



## MJtheIndicator (Nov 9, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Or get a bottle of EM-1 and use that.


Great to see bokashi and EM1 being mentioned more.


----------



## CannaBare (Nov 9, 2014)

Has anyone ever topdressed biochar under a layer of EWC?

I made some the other day and it is soaking but I would like to add it to flowering plants. I obviously can't disturb the soil so I thought topdressing and covering with EWC/compost would be like tilling it in. And cannabis will grow roots into the layer eventually.


----------



## Pattahabi (Nov 10, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Has anyone ever topdressed biochar under a layer of EWC?
> 
> I made some the other day and it is soaking but I would like to add it to flowering plants. I obviously can't disturb the soil so I thought topdressing and covering with EWC/compost would be like tilling it in. And cannabis will grow roots into the layer eventually.


I would top dress with bio-char. I've also heard of people watering in the fine bio-char dust.

P-


----------



## Mohican (Nov 11, 2014)

Cooked up some organic coconut oil:







Cheers,
Mo


----------



## bazookajoe (Nov 12, 2014)

Can I use armor si instead of protekt?


----------



## Becorath (Nov 12, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Cooked up some organic coconut oil:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would you be willing to share your method?


----------



## Mohican (Nov 12, 2014)

Cooked the flowers in the oil at 160-170 for 3 hours:








Drained out the solids:




Filtered in the oven at 170 until it was all clean:









Put it in the fridge.

Cheers,
Mo


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 12, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Cooked the flowers in the oil at 160-170 for 3 hours:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People need to put more simple methods out on the web like this one. 1-2 done, that easy.

Over the years doing countless hours of research on 10 pages worth of steps on how to cook oil, how to make tincture, how to make bho and your smoking oils, ect, ect. The ones the helped me were ones like this.

When I tell people how to make shatter BHO without a vacuum pump, it's seriously simple as hell. It's crazy how technical people get with some of this stuff now days.


----------



## bazookajoe (Nov 12, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> When I tell people how to make shatter BHO without a vacuum pump, it's seriously simple as hell. It's crazy how technical people get with some of this stuff now days.


Do u have this in a thread? I'm tired of the bs that comes along with outsourcing.


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 12, 2014)

bazookajoe said:


> Do u have this in a thread? I'm tired of the bs that comes along with outsourcing.


Funny how I am saying we should have more simple method threads and I didn't care to post mine. I feel ashamed lmao. 

Well I can always PM you my method if I never get to a thread. I've been doing QWISO recently, switch from BHO. No particular reason just for the circumstances I'm in using iso instead of butane has been easier for me.


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 12, 2014)

My QWISO and BHO methods are pretty similar purging wise.


----------



## GreenSanta (Nov 12, 2014)

I prefer to make my coconut oil with QWISO vs soaking the buds because you can make it so much stronger and it comes out super clean.


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 12, 2014)

I hear of a lot of people switching to concentrates for their edibles now, instead of cooking the bud in the cooking oil.

Like you said, stronger/cleaner product.


----------



## bazookajoe (Nov 12, 2014)

I haven't done much looking into the process of making it but I'm willing to learn to save myself the headache I got last time. I dropped off a bag of trim to a friend, he calls me an hour later says his tube broke and it would be a while til he got a new one. Says he knows a guy that works @ a reputable head shop blah blah blah.. wed have product in a few days..ok cool! Damn near 60 days later I get my 5 grams... I think ill just make it myself. 
Id appreciate it either way man.


----------



## Mohican (Nov 13, 2014)

I made my first oil with concentrate. I can't tell a difference in potency. Sure was much easier to make and now I get all of the extra terpenes I was washing away.


----------



## PeaceLoveCannabis (Nov 13, 2014)

I could easily see how using concentrate could be more potent. Just depends on a few factors like if you use and oz of some bubble hash, it will be more potent then an oz of super potent bud. One benefit from concentrates is they dont taste like you started munchin on your bud. If your making oil in the first place though you are making a form of hash too, you could make the oil more potent the longer you decarb it ( ie the length of time you have it on a good temp like 160 or higher. )


----------



## st0wandgrow (Nov 13, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Cooked the flowers in the oil at 160-170 for 3 hours:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What's that little temprature device you got there Mo? 

I've been using a glass candy thermometer, but your thingy looks cooler.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> What's that little temprature device you got there Mo?
> 
> I've been using a glass candy thermometer, but your thingy looks cooler.


I wanna say that it looks like a voltmeter with a fancy do-dad attached, but it's hard to tell


----------



## abe supercro (Nov 13, 2014)

http://www.thermoworks.com/blog/2012/03/infrared-thermometry/


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 13, 2014)

Probably a laser heat gun thing to read temps if you just shoot the laser at it.

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200467177_200467177?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Construction-_-Thermometers-_-19815&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=19815&ci_src=17588969&ci_sku=19815&gclid=Cj0KEQiAypGjBRCPme6jmqu3gZsBEiQA8NAiIBDyl4IKkI9mtUTKc9HlHKjsVsVLOUyZmMYjLiRGRdQaAsly8P8HAQ


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 13, 2014)

abe supercro said:


> http://www.thermoworks.com/blog/2012/03/infrared-thermometry/


Beat me to it haha.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Nov 13, 2014)

Huh. Those aren't that expensive

Thanks for the info abe and ADT!


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Nov 13, 2014)

Hey there guys, sorry for coming out of the blue again just wanted to get another heads up on the transplanting part , got this baby in a half gallon pot and im wondering if i should transplant it to its 4 gallon pot ? Hopefully its not overdue and root bound ? ( dont know why it has some yellow leaves though ) Its about 12 inches at the moment. Peace : )


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 13, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey there guys, sorry for coming out of the blue again just wanted to get another heads up on the transplanting part , got this baby in a half gallon pot and im wondering if i should transplant it to its 4 gallon pot ? Hopefully its not overdue and root bound ? ( dont know why it has some yellow leaves though ) Its about 12 inches at the moment. Peace : )


that plant looks just fine to me, just make sure to spray the exposed roots with water and sprinkle the rootball with a good layer of mychorizae before sticking in there.
depending on how long you are vegging you may want to go to a 2 gallon first, either way will be fine though


----------



## st0wandgrow (Nov 13, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey there guys, sorry for coming out of the blue again just wanted to get another heads up on the transplanting part , got this baby in a half gallon pot and im wondering if i should transplant it to its 4 gallon pot ? Hopefully its not overdue and root bound ? ( dont know why it has some yellow leaves though ) Its about 12 inches at the moment. Peace : )



Plant looks great, but early yellowing of leaves could be an indication that she wants to stretch her legs out a bit more. I'd up pot that in to the bigger container.


----------



## abe supercro (Nov 13, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


>


look how that leaf is split dwn the middle between green and yellow. It's a weird variegation, cool.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 13, 2014)

abe supercro said:


> look how that leaf is split dwn the middle between green and yellow. It's a weird variegation, cool.


I had a sativa mixed bagseed plant that did that, I grew that one for about four years and it did that everytime.
it also did the same where the other half was almost white, grew perfectly the leaves were firm and normal, just half albino, kinda


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I had a sativa mixed bagseed plant that did that, I grew that one for about four years and it did that everytime.
> it also did the same where the other half was almost white, grew perfectly the leaves were firm and normal, just half albino, kinda


love that.
incredible, this mary


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 13, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> love that.
> incredible, this mary


the wierdest thing I ever encountered with cannabis is one time I had some seeds (again bagseed, predates seedbanks..) anyways I was sprouting outside, and a snail got to the seedling, ate half of the first true set of leaves (the first after the cot.) anyways half of the middle finger (of the leaf) was eaten, but then EVERY leaf after that grew the middle finger leaf with only half of the leaf, intact, the other half of it was all shriveled, looked EXACTLY like the snail damage, somehow the plant "remembered" the damage and grew ever middle finger like that. In fact it even cloned like that, it was some good herb too, I called it... yeah you guessed it... the snail.
Pretty weird though. This was back in 2005 or so
I've also seen plants grow an opposing middle finger before, so like it has the normal 5,7,9,11, fingered plants but then growing opposed to the other fingers is one that grows towards the stem.


----------



## smokey the cat (Nov 13, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Huh. Those aren't that expensive
> 
> Thanks for the info abe and ADT!


I got this one for* $15 delivered* http://www.dx.com/p/1-2-lcd-digital-infrared-thermometer-orange-black-123695

Mine seems accurate enough for anything not involving or lab work or beer brewing. Highly impressed with it.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> the wierdest thing I ever encountered with cannabis is one time I had some seeds (again bagseed, predates seedbanks..) anyways I was sprouting outside, and a snail got to the seedling, ate half of the first true set of leaves (the first after the cot.) anyways half of the middle finger (of the leaf) was eaten, but then EVERY leaf after that grew the middle finger leaf with only half of the leaf, intact, the other half of it was all shriveled, looked EXACTLY like the snail damage, somehow the plant "remembered" the damage and grew ever middle finger like that. In fact it even cloned like that, it was some good herb too, I called it... yeah you guessed it... the snail.
> Pretty weird though. This was back in 2005 or so
> I've also seen plants grow an opposing middle finger before, so like it has the normal 5,7,9,11, fingered plants but then growing opposed to the other fingers is one that grows towards the stem.


thats just awesome. a snail who ate a middle finger and changed a plant for life, and got a strain named after him or her. that was a bob marley type snail to eat that specific finger. if you were a snail, could you really live any more proper? hahaha


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 13, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> thats just awesome. a snail who ate a middle finger and changed a plant for life, and got a strain named after him or her. that was a bob marley type snail to eat that specific finger. if you were a snail, could you really live any more proper? hahaha


totally, I kinda felt a lil bad when I stopped growing that strain, IIRC I think it was a diesel relative, the bag I got was a diesel hybrid, so I assume the seeds were at least a quarter diesel. I thought it was really cool though... Now that I remember it, that snail (or his buddies) ate like 8 of my seedlings, I never had any issues with snails, but overnight they chomped everything down, from then on, I always make a nice little water-softener-rock-salt circle around em...


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Nov 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> that plant looks just fine to me, just make sure to spray the exposed roots with water and sprinkle the rootball with a good layer of mychorizae before sticking in there.
> depending on how long you are vegging you may want to go to a 2 gallon first, either way will be fine though


Thank you greasemonkeyman, ill keep in mind to spray the roots & will take a look as to where i can find some mychorizae, at the moment i only have the 4 gallon pots which have been cooking for about 5 weeks with watering & lacto b. diluted waterings, base mix 1/3 peat 1/3 perlite 1/3 EWC & a few cups of crushed alfalfa. Respect


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 13, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you greasemonkeyman, ill keep in mind to spray the roots & will take a look as to where i can find some mychorizae, at the moment i only have the 4 gallon pots which have been cooking for about 5 weeks with watering & lacto b. diluted waterings, base mix 1/3 peat 1/3 perlite 1/3 EWC & a few cups of crushed alfalfa. Respect


You are very welcome, let me know if you need any other help, and if I may humbly suggest the bag of myco from extreme, let me see if I can find you a picture... it's fairly inexpensive, isn't loaded with trichos and it has the "right" type of myco, good stuff. and it's not too much $$.
mychorrizae is a MUST have... for me anyways.----------the myco is from a company called "xtreme"---
aloe, mychorrizae, quality EWC, quality molasses, comfrey, dandelions.. must haves
oh and rabbit poo, best shit ever. Alpaca is damn good too.
be careful with the alfalfa, that's some potent stuff


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 13, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> totally, I kinda felt a lil bad when I stopped growing that strain, IIRC I think it was a diesel relative, the bag I got was a diesel hybrid, so I assume the seeds were at least a quarter diesel. I thought it was really cool though... Now that I remember it, that snail (or his buddies) ate like 8 of my seedlings, I never had any issues with snails, but overnight they chomped everything down, from then on, I always make a nice little water-softener-rock-salt circle around em...


the anti-snail seance, soliiiid


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Nov 14, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> You are very welcome, let me know if you need any other help, and if I may humbly suggest the bag of myco from extreme, let me see if I can find you a picture... it's fairly inexpensive, isn't loaded with trichos and it has the "right" type of myco, good stuff. and it's not too much $$.
> mychorrizae is a MUST have... for me anyways.----------the myco is from a company called "xtreme"---
> aloe, mychorrizae, quality EWC, quality molasses, comfrey, dandelions.. must haves
> oh and rabbit poo, best shit ever. Alpaca is damn good too.
> be careful with the alfalfa, that's some potent stuff


Respect bud i will do, i dont live on that side of the world but i found a place called Mycoroot who sells products over here which should be my best bet, i have a big aloe bush growing in my garden but proper just better to buy a bottle ? dandelions are growing in the abandoned house next door i could just pick most of them and let the rest reseed, quality ewc & molasses i have but comfrey unfortunately not, hopefully the cup of alfalfa per 4 gallon wasnt too potent, cant find any rabbit poo around here at the moment though bro, thank you


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## smokey the cat (Nov 14, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Respect bud i will do, i dont live on that side of the world but i found a place called Mycoroot who sells products over here which should be my best bet, i have a big aloe bush growing in my garden but proper just better to buy a bottle ? dandelions are growing in the abandoned house next door i could just pick most of them and let the rest reseed, quality ewc & molasses i have but comfrey unfortunately not, hopefully the cup of alfalfa per 4 gallon wasnt too potent, cant find any rabbit poo around here at the moment though bro, thank you



Hey bro, I'm the same hemisphere as you. Hard to find stuff sometimes, yeah?

Fuck buying aloe in a bottle mate, use the real stuff you lucky bastard. That's awesome.

Comfrey should be available somewhere. Any organic seed stores or hippy-permaculture-heirloom-plant gardening places - this is the sort of shit they should carry. Check your local internet trading site you saffers use - there might be folks selling home grown comfrey roots for a dollar or two. http://www.olx.co.za/nf/search/comfrey ???????

I joined twitter and there are a bunch of organic gardening types local to me who will put offers out for random stuff like this - had someone offer english nettle this evening.

I can't find myco here either, so I'm gonna import some. It's light and cheap, so shipping wont be that much of a killer.

Don't stress about the right type of manure - whatever you can get locally will be perfect for ya. Cow or horse or buffalo or giraffe or whatever. Compost it first, you'll be sweet. (the advantage with rabbit is it's supposed to be super gentle - probably means the rabbit isn't processing the food as much as a ruminant does, meaning it's less available)


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 14, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Hey bro, I'm the same hemisphere as you. Hard to find stuff sometimes, yeah?
> 
> Fuck buying aloe in a bottle mate, use the real stuff you lucky bastard. That's awesome.
> 
> ...


Hey man : ) Yeah sometimes its quite a struggle, i have found a place that is selling mycoroot although the shop attendant wasnt exactly sharp with these products she said it was sort of greyish brownish granules, should this be good ? 

I should take a look at how to extract the aloe i dont think it should be too hard though and will make some really pure local aloe right there.

I havent seen comfrey anywhere but i should make some calls and find out for sure, will definitely help in the vegetable garden too no doubt at all.

As for the manure ive just used EWC in all my pots i would definitely take a look at some rabbit manure the next time i make a grow, really keen on trying a few different ones : ) ill be quite mobile for a while though after this grow but ill keep all the equipment safe as can be ! 

Thanks for the heads up man, hope you having a good weekend, Peace!


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 14, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you greasemonkeyman, ill keep in mind to spray the roots & will take a look as to where i can find some mychorizae, at the moment i only have the 4 gallon pots which have been cooking for about 5 weeks with watering & lacto b. diluted waterings, base mix 1/3 peat 1/3 perlite 1/3 EWC & a few cups of crushed alfalfa. Respect [/Q





smokey the cat said:


> Hey bro, I'm the same hemisphere as you. Hard to find stuff sometimes, yeah?
> 
> Fuck buying aloe in a bottle mate, use the real stuff you lucky bastard. That's awesome.
> 
> ...


a wise old grower once told me, for manures, you want pebbles, so I imagine maybe the deer-related animals out there?
side note, how bad-ass would it to be to grow with giraffe turds.... just seems cool.
Rabbits are actually preferred because it has higher amounts of all the nutrients, AND it can be given to them without composting.
Good shit.
I do think you may have it backwards, the rabbit digests better than the other animals, that's why it doesn't need to be composted, alpaca, der, and so on, the "pebbley" turds... the "ploppy" ones are made with animals that have less stomachs... (I am not a scientist, so I could be full of shit)..... pun-intended


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## Mohican (Nov 14, 2014)

Transplanted all of the LA Con clones into the used soil. One of the pots was covered in clover so I inverted it and now all of the clover is at the bottom.




Cheers,
Mo


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 14, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey man : ) Yeah sometimes its quite a struggle, i have found a place that is selling mycoroot although the shop attendant wasnt exactly sharp with these products she said it was sort of greyish brownish granules, should this be good ?
> 
> I should take a look at how to extract the aloe i dont think it should be too hard though and will make some really pure local aloe right there.
> 
> ...


If you do find comfrey, be sure to get the bocking 14 cultivar. It's a sterile version. If you go with a non-sterile version you could end up with WAY more comfrey in your yard than what you bargained for!


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 14, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> a wise old grower once told me, for manures, you want pebbles, so I imagine maybe the deer-related animals out there?
> side note, how bad-ass would it to be to grow with giraffe turds.... just seems cool.
> Rabbits are actually preferred because it has higher amounts of all the nutrients, AND it can be given to them without composting.
> Good shit.
> I do think you may have it backwards, the rabbit digests better than the other animals, that's why it doesn't need to be composted, alpaca, der, and so on, the "pebbley" turds... the "ploppy" ones are made with animals that have less stomachs... (I am not a scientist, so I could be full of shit)..... pun-intended


Lol Giraffe turds hahahaha that would be very interesting, i see what you mean by pebbly turds, they do indeed seem very nutritious for plants, they are like intensely compressed balls of the most finely picked grasses with the other good bacteria's and so forth, that will definitely be on my list next ! Im sure that poop will do wonders !


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> If you do find comfrey, be sure to get the bocking 14 cultivar. It's a sterile version. If you go with a non-sterile version you could end up with WAY more comfrey in your yard than what you bargained for!


interesting, course I have mine in a pot, but would that be technically a GMO?
Kinda sad.. a sterile plant?
meh, I'm too much of a damn hippie-tree-hugger


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 14, 2014)

Smokey! damn i only read your message properly now, didnt even see properly that you said you in the same hemisphere! Respect


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 14, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> interesting, course I have mine in a pot, but would that be technically a GMO?
> Kinda sad.. a sterile plant?
> meh, I'm too much of a damn hippie-tree-hugger


Ideally you want the plant outside right in the ground.


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## Pattahabi (Nov 14, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> the wierdest thing I ever encountered with cannabis is one time I had some seeds (again bagseed, predates seedbanks..) anyways I was sprouting outside, and a snail got to the seedling, ate half of the first true set of leaves (the first after the cot.) anyways half of the middle finger (of the leaf) was eaten, but then EVERY leaf after that grew the middle finger leaf with only half of the leaf, intact, the other half of it was all shriveled, looked EXACTLY like the snail damage, somehow the plant "remembered" the damage and grew ever middle finger like that. In fact it even cloned like that, it was some good herb too, I called it... yeah you guessed it... the snail.
> Pretty weird though. This was back in 2005 or so
> I've also seen plants grow an opposing middle finger before, so like it has the normal 5,7,9,11, fingered plants but then growing opposed to the other fingers is one that grows towards the stem.


You are very correct! Plants do remember! I believe it was the Darwins that did an experiment pricking the cotyledons on one side of the plant. The plant grow more vigorously on the opposite side of the pricking thinking it was a pest attack. The did the same experiment, pricked one cotyledon, and then cut both cotyledons off. The plant remembered which one had been pricked, and grew accordingly.

I think plants are just fascinating!

Peace!
P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Ideally you want the plant outside right in the ground.


yeah, I know planting dynamic accumulators in potted soil seems a lil silly... but I use them for compost teas, that and the soil in the pots is an organic re-used soil as well so it couldn't hurt. I'm just experimenting with the whole thing, may or may not be used for the future, we will see, at this point i'm trying NOT to get ultra complicated on it. I do have a tendency to do that though


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 14, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> You are very correct! Plants do remember! I believe it was the Darwins that did an experiment pricking the cotyledons on one side of the plant. The plant grow more vigorously on the opposite side of the pricking thinking it was a pest attack. The did the same experiment, pricked one cotyledon, and then cut both cotyledons off. The plant remembered which one had been pricked, and grew accordingly.
> 
> I think plants are just fascinating!
> 
> ...


That plant was just cool, I still feel a lil guilty about choosing not to grow it further. Good smoke too, just never grew that tall, and it screwed up my canopy when it was inside, next to it's more sativa brethren


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## MJtheIndicator (Nov 14, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Transplanted all of the LA Con clones into the used soil. One of the pots was covered in clover so I inverted it and now all of the clover is at the bottom.
> 
> Cheers,
> Mo


Nice.

From Belgian Cannabis Social Club ‘TUP's Dutch Passion Frisian Dew grow journal in Feb.

"Then, we’ll pour in a single layer of organic soil, added with another 2 layers of organic soil, lime, bat guano, mycorrhizae and perlite. Finally the top layer will be added. In this top layer, clover will be planted as a cover crop. Her nitrogen-fixing properties will provide the plants with nitrogen from the air that is made available for up-take through the roots of the Cannabis plant. Clover roots will form symbiotic relationships with Cannabis roots. When you harvest, you simply till the top layer of the soil and mix it in under a new layer of fresh organic soil. The clover will break down and will serve as nutrient for the next plants (‘green manure’). Another nice touch of this cover crop is that it will prevent soil dust from spreading in the air on a hot day and prevent the soil from drying out.”


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 14, 2014)

Could i ask what form of mycorrhizae you guys use ? I phoned this one store & they say its brownish greyish granules, will this be cool to pop in the holes ? i would really like to transplant tomorrow these baby's are getting root bound ! Peace


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## MJtheIndicator (Nov 14, 2014)

*Powder form of Mycorrhizae and Fungi products*

*BioAg VAM* 300 grams Endomycorrhizal Plant Root & Soil Inoculant $31.95
Beneficial Fungi 1 tsp per plant

*ZHO Root Inoculant* 1-Pound $69.42 
Apply 1/4 teaspoon of zho twice during your grow cycle. 
endomychorrizal and trichoderma fungi that naturally build a microbial system in and around plant roots.
ZHO contains special amino acids designed to intensify the rhizoidal activity that ZHO ignites. 

*Subculture M* 200 Grams - - Mycorrhizal Root Inoculant $27.02
endo and ecto mycorrhizal fungi 

*SubCulture B* 200g $36.75
fifty-two soil microorganism 
blend of Bacilius, Streptomycetes, Actinoycetes, Psuedomonas and Trichoderma. SubCulture-B is a probiotic inoculum of beneficial microorganisms. blend of bacteria and trichoderma fungi. 

*Great White* Premium Mycorrhizae 4 oz $32.23
Combination of mycorrhizae, bacteria, trichoderma

*Endo Mycorrhizae* (2 lb. package) $37.00
Mycorrhizal fungi 
100,000 propagules/lb. - 4 species endo mycorrhizae
Glomus intraradicees, G Mosseae, G Aggregatun,G Etunicatum.

*RTI Xtreme Gardening RT4402 Mykos*, 2.2-Pound Bag $26.99
beneficial fungi that connects many of the eneficial microbes in the soil to host plants
1 strain mycorrhizae

*Oregonism XL* 1lb $44.01
endo/ecto-mycorrhizae, beneficial bacteria, and Trichoderma

*Gnarly Roots* 2oz Mycorrhizae Fungi $12.18
9 Premium Endo and Ecto Mycorrhizae 
Endo's Glomus intraradices, G. mosseae, G. aggregatum, G. etunicatum: 10,000 prop./lb. each Ecto's Rhizopogon villosullus, R. luteolus, R. amylopogon, R.fulvigleba (2.5 million prop./lb. each), Pisolithus tinctorius (200 million prop./lb.) 

*Myke 1949312 Annual and Perennial Mycorrhiza Growth Supplement*, 1/2-Quart $7.49
two main types of mycorrhizae: Endomycorrhizae associate with 80% of plants. Most deciduous trees and herbaceous plants Ectomycorrhizae associate with 5 to 7% of plants. 

*Nature's Solution Mycorrhizae* (8 Oz) $18.95
6 Endomycorrhizae Species, 5 Ectomycorrhizae Species
endomycorrhizae: Glomus intraradices, G. mosseae, G. dussii, G. clarum, G. deserticola, G. microaggregatum, and also 5 ectomycorrhizae: Psolithus tinctorius, Rhizopogon villosullus, R. luteolus, R. amylopogon, R. fulvigleba. 
1 Tablespoon per 10 Gallons of water or tea.


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## anzohaze (Nov 14, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yeah, I know planting dynamic accumulators in potted soil seems a lil silly... but I use them for compost teas, that and the soil in the pots is an organic re-used soil as well so it couldn't hurt. I'm just experimenting with the whole thing, may or may not be used for the future, we will see, at this point i'm trying NOT to get ultra complicated on it. I do have a tendency to do that though


 its a mechanic thinh i over due everything


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 14, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Could i ask what form of mycorrhizae you guys use ? I phoned this one store & they say its brownish greyish granules, will this be cool to pop in the holes ? i would really like to transplant tomorrow these baby's are getting root bound ! Peace


I use the xtreme myco, cheap, has the right type of myco, not full of trichos and its granulated.


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 14, 2014)

MJtheIndicator said:


> *Powder form of Mycorrhizae and Fungi products*
> 
> QUOTE]
> funny how most of the ultra expensive ones are full of trichoderma.
> ...


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## Pattahabi (Nov 14, 2014)

*Waste not, want not? Poultry “feather meal” as another source of antibiotics in feed*

Stay away from the slaughter house byproducts imo. This goes for feather meal, blood meal, bone meal, etc.

Call me crazy, but I think there are better inputs for your organic soil.



P-


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 14, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I use the xtreme myco, cheap, has the right type of myco, not full of trichos and its granulated.


Thank you again bro, these are the products i found
Link , not sure which one but it must be, although its either the supergro or green product because the other two are in millilitres. Will appreciate any other advice on the product, much respect


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## MJtheIndicator (Nov 14, 2014)

All it takes is someone doing a control test out of a small package and some of the manufacturers might have to change their strategy, but at least we will get some exciting product artwork out it if they do decide to change up the game. Always room for reptiles battling sea urchins and polar bears on bottle stickers.


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## DonPetro (Nov 14, 2014)

I personally don't mind using organic blood and bone meal, cow/steer manure. People gonna always eat meat and all that blood and bone has to be used for something. The shit on the other hand is just a bonus! @DonTesla will be testing two mixes with crushed eggshells being the only "animal by-product" in one and the other containing both organic blood and bone meal. They also both contain the same amounts of various other amendments. Not sure how having more or less different amendments and the rates at which they break down affects the microbial process within the soil mix. Anyways...


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## Pattahabi (Nov 14, 2014)

MJtheIndicator said:


> All it takes is someone doing a control test out of a small package and some of the manufacturers might have to change their strategy, but at least we will get some exciting product artwork out it if they do decide to change up the game. Always room for reptiles battling sea urchins and polar bears on bottle stickers.


You you should totally do a side by side!


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## Pattahabi (Nov 14, 2014)

@DonPetro When they saw organic blood and bone meal, does that mean they come from certified organic cows? Just curious.

P-


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## DonPetro (Nov 14, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> @DonPetro When they saw organic blood and bone meal, does that mean they come from certified organic cows? Just curious.
> 
> P-


Well im not to clear on that but blood is only allowed if sterilized and this is what i found on bone meal :
*Permitted only if guaranteed free of specified risk materials including the skull, brain, trigeminal ganglia (nerves attached to the brain), eyes, tonsils, spinal cord and dorsal root ganglia (nerves attached to the spinal cord) of cattle aged 30 months or older; and the distal ileum (portion of the small intestine) of cattle of all ages*
This pdf is actuall quite interesting as they list all the requirement of usage and origin of a ton of amendments.
https://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&ei=R71mVN3ZGM79oQS634H4Dg&url=http://www.ecocertcanada.com/sites/www.ecocertcanada.com/files/032-0311-2008-eng.pdf&ved=0CBwQFjAA&usg=AFQjCNF0sBcGxXmWrjOgeGIUHIFTESvVFA 
And ecocert has pretty good standards [email protected]#$ omri.


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## Pattahabi (Nov 14, 2014)

That's an excellent resource DP! I'm still not sold I would want blood and bone meal in my soil. Maybe if I couldn't find neem, crab, kelp, etc.

Peace!

P-


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 15, 2014)

Dont wanna be a dick here but its the worst when people suggest using things but cant help you choose the product ... : / Greasemonkey i think im going to leave out the Myco cause its not really nescessary, i think if it made such a difference Mad Ham would use it too. Just getting annoyed with buying all this shit all the time & im letting the plant get more root bound while trying to find some myco which might make it grow 0.1 of a second quicker ? jeez...


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## DonPetro (Nov 15, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Dont wanna be a dick here but its the worst when people suggest using things but cant help you choose the product ... : / Greasemonkey i think im going to leave out the Myco cause its not really nescessary, i think if it made such a difference Mad Ham would use it too. Just getting annoyed with buying all this shit all the time & im letting the plant get more root bound while trying to find some myco which might make it grow 0.1 of a second quicker ? jeez...


A lot of people will say use this and use that. Not everything people suggest is a must have. You gotta decide that on your own. I suggest making a list of all the amendments YOU WOULD LIKE to have then go about sourcing them the best you can. You may not get everything you want that first run but you will learn alot along the way.


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## Pattahabi (Nov 15, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Dont wanna be a dick here but its the worst when people suggest using things but cant help you choose the product ... : / Greasemonkey i think im going to leave out the Myco cause its not really nescessary, i think if it made such a difference Mad Ham would use it too. Just getting annoyed with buying all this shit all the time & im letting the plant get more root bound while trying to find some myco which might make it grow 0.1 of a second quicker ? jeez...


SS, look for a mykos product with a decent spore count and preferably a low trichoderma count, and call it a day. Here's a kilo of the product I use for $25.

http://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Gardening-RT4402-Mykos-2-2-Pound/dp/B003STB5N6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416061956&sr=8-1&keywords=xtreme+mykos

P-


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 15, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> A lot of people will say use this and use that. Not everything people suggest is a must have. You gotta decide that on your own. I suggest making a list of all the amendments YOU WOULD LIKE to have then go about sourcing them the best you can. You may not get everything you want that first run but you will learn alot along the way.


Appreciate the reply, i understand what you mean though, ill definitely try source some of it for my next run along with a few other things as it is my 1st ever indoor run. I read up some other information on myco though and apparently its no use if i already have other native microbes within my soil which should be already present due to having a 1/3 of EWC in my base mix ? Not sure how valid this is but yeah, i wont stress about not having it in this time. Thank You Don


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 15, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> SS, look for a mykos product with a decent spore count and preferably a low trichoderma count, and call it a day. Here's a kilo of the product I use for $25.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Xtreme-Gardening-RT4402-Mykos-2-2-Pound/dp/B003STB5N6/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1416061956&sr=8-1&keywords=xtreme mykos
> 
> P-


Thank you P, i need to do alot more reading about this stuff before my next grow, it would be good to get the right stuff from amazon but i would like to first try and compare the local myco's i can get here, ill have to get in contact with the manufacturer but not sure how honest they can be about the trichoderma count, appreciate it.


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 15, 2014)

Pattahabi said:


> @DonPetro When they saw organic blood and bone meal, does that mean they come from certified organic cows? Just curious.
> 
> P-


Something to consider is that DP is from Alberta, which is the cattle capital of Canada (CCC?). There is much more land for cattle to graze up there, and much less use of antibiotics, steroids, etc. Alberta beef is as good as it comes. Only speculating, but I would have to imagine that the slaughter house by products from there would be of a higher quality than here in the States.

I'm a vegetarian so I still wouldn't use it, but that's beside the point.


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## DonPetro (Nov 15, 2014)

I would not use animal by-products if i was a caregiver/licensed producer but personally have no problem using them.


st0wandgrow said:


> Something to consider is that DP is from Alberta, which is the cattle capital of Canada (CCC?). There is much more land for cattle to graze up there, and much less use of antibiotics, steroids, etc. Alberta beef is as good as it comes. Only speculating, but I would have to imagine that the slaughter house by products from there would be of a higher quality than here in the States.
> 
> I'm a vegetarian so I still wouldn't use it, but that's beside the point.


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## hyroot (Nov 15, 2014)

http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~soilecol/NewPubs1.htm



http://www.slocountyworms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EFFECTS-OF-VERMICOMPOSTS-ON-PLANT-GROWTH.pdf


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## Pattahabi (Nov 15, 2014)

hyroot said:


> http://www.biosci.ohio-state.edu/~soilecol/NewPubs1.htm
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.slocountyworms.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/EFFECTS-OF-VERMICOMPOSTS-ON-PLANT-GROWTH.pdf


Those are some great links hyroot! Imo Clive Edwards is the man when it comes to vermicomposting!

Peace!

P-


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## Mohican (Nov 15, 2014)

Interesting 30% vermi added to your soil gives the best results.


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 16, 2014)

Glad i used that 30% EWC : ) Here are the babies that i just transplanted before lights off






To the right is the The Church & to the left the majestic bagseed which i think think might be ace of spades but is looking extremely sativa, getting worried its going to consume the whole canopy for itself though : ) lol - PEACE


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 16, 2014)

Badass! Been a long journey for you Boet, looking stellar. You are in excellent hands on this thread, damn good to see more real organic growing from down south.


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 16, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Badass! Been a long journey for you Boet, looking stellar. You are in excellent hands on this thread, damn good to see more real organic growing from down south.


Thank you for being such a legend dude, it has been a long journey indeed, really appreciate all the help you've given me & i cannot wait till i get that all purpose tea brewing ! got to love this thread though, all you guys are awesome, i have really learnt alot & i've been slowly helping other people do the same ! Peace


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## DonPetro (Nov 16, 2014)

A lot of conflicting info about amounts of worm castings in organic potting mixes. This one says 15% is optimal.
http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/organic/news/2014/2014-06a3.htm


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 16, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Glad i used that 30% EWC : ) Here are the babies that i just transplanted before lights off
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Church is a very nice strain despite the bad rap that Greenhouse Seeds gets. I grew that plant for many moons. It has a very unique floral aroma that transferred over to the taste 100%. Very unique.

Plants are looking great bro!


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## a senile fungus (Nov 16, 2014)

@st0wandgrow

I remember reading a bit ago that you were working to reduce the number of inputs/amendments that you used to make soil.

I think I remember crab/oyster shell meal, kelp meal, neem meal, etc. What else was in there, and quantities per cf? I think there were 5 or 6 total... 

Thank you very much!


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## Mad Hamish (Nov 16, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> A lot of conflicting info about amounts of worm castings in organic potting mixes. This one says 15% is optimal.
> http://www.omafra.gov.on.ca/english/crops/organic/news/2014/2014-06a3.htm


Agreed, more than one way to get your humic material up. Main reason I recommend EWC especially down here is that it is always waaaaay better to use than any of the crappy compost we have. Once you have your own compost heaps and leaf molds etc, cutting back on EWC makes for less stretch and less flop, but if I run out of home made compost it is back to EWC at that thirty percent ratio.


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 16, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> The Church is a very nice strain despite the bad rap that Greenhouse Seeds gets. I grew that plant for many moons. It has a very unique floral aroma that transferred over to the taste 100%. Very unique.
> 
> Plants are looking great bro!


Thank you & Respect st0w, it already smells & it smells insane, i love it, just a gentle squeeze on the side branch and i smell it even more, apparently its Swiss Sativa x Northern Lights x SuperSkunk, that smell is seriously nostalgic though, almost like a hint of chron i had back in the day but surely very unique.


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## DonPetro (Nov 16, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Agreed, more than one way to get your humic material up. Main reason I recommend EWC especially down here is that it is always waaaaay better to use than any of the crappy compost we have. Once you have your own compost heaps and leaf molds etc, cutting back on EWC makes for less stretch and less flop, but if I run out of home made compost it is back to EWC at that thirty percent ratio.


Agreed. Home built compost is the way to go. I just screened 10 gal of composted manure and it looks amazing.


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## abe supercro (Nov 16, 2014)

Alfalfa, Fish Meal, Fish Bone Meal, and EW Castings.


----------



## Mohican (Nov 16, 2014)

@DonPetro - any pics of the screening and finished product? I would love to see it!

Throw a bunch of weeds (especially dandelions) to get more silica. I also recommend a small handful of native clay soil mixed well per 5 gallons of potting soil. It will provide a nice mixture of beneficial minerals. Try dissolving it first in a gallon of water and pouring on your soil mix.

Clay soil is very hard to work with because of its poor drainage characteristics. However, once a plant is established in clay soil and watering is kept moderate, the plants outperform the same plants grown in light soils.

Tangerine in clay soil:






Banana with clay added to compost, ewc, super soil mix:

09-09-14:




10-27-14:




Cheers,
Mo


----------



## Mad Hamish (Nov 16, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Agreed. Home built compost is the way to go. I just screened 10 gal of composted manure and it looks amazing.


I will get you a pic of my Bokashi-powered horse poop heap tomorrow. It is pretty damn large lol. Bokashi and horse poop makes compost damn fast wowa.


----------



## Mohican (Nov 16, 2014)

Do you make your own Bokashi?


----------



## Bueno Time (Nov 16, 2014)

I have a batch of newspaper that I soaked in molasses and lacto b serum for bokashi starter (takes place of the bokashi bran in between food layers). Its been sealed up in a gallon ziplock bag for 15 days now so its done, instructions I read said 10-14 days. Should there be a some mold on the paper, I know finished bokashi will be moldy when its done so I assume its ok, just want to make sure before I use any of the newspaper to start a bokashi bucket. Theres a little bit of green and white mold along the edge of the paper.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 16, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> I would not use animal by-products if i was a caregiver/licensed producer but personally have no problem using them.


It will be interesting to compare our Rasta soil to our Vamp blend in a variety of delivery methods in just a few short months from now..


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 16, 2014)

I have seen conflicting research thanks to DP. anyone wish there was vc studies on sensi specifically. Comparing Sativa studies to hybrid and indica ones.. Radishes are a bit far from the Mary tree, though tomatoes were studied


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 16, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Appreciate the reply, i understand what you mean though, ill definitely try source some of it for my next run along with a few other things as it is my 1st ever indoor run. I read up some other information on myco though and apparently its no use if i already have other native microbes within my soil which should be already present due to having a 1/3 of EWC in my base mix ? Not sure how valid this is but yeah, i wont stress about not having it in this time. Thank You Don


Myco fungi bro, are HUGE. Their hyphae increase surface area of roots by 700x. they attract nutrient-packed blind nematodes. Naturally. With a chemical. The path the nematode leaves is a nutrient, gas and airway channel with nutritious exuduates. Then they choke out and pierce the nematode and feed the plant their belly nutrients.

In some species a plants roots gets infected by myco fungi and the plant uses 17% of its photosynthetic energy to feed the mycelium, but in return they get up to 70% more uptake of otherwise easily locked up nutrients. A wicked deal.

You can always add them during the final transplant after a long veg, it's profound imo, but that just me. I'm blown away by Teaming with Microbes though. It's a wild world.

Just read a bit more on them, I'm sure you'll get them whenever you can and they'll last a long time. Just be sure to wear a mask though, trust me. If you like being able to swallow, sleep, breathe properly, etc, lol. Do our transplants away from the grow room now or turn fans off. I was right in there inspecting a liberal sprinkling it lead to .. Medical research lol


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 16, 2014)

Ps. The myco. Their mycelium can penetrate much further untapped zones with un-used nutrients that otherwise would not be available in nutrient-wiped rhizospheres, stimulating growth as opposed to stalling it out


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 16, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Ps. The myco. Their mycelium can penetrate much further untapped zones with un-used nutrients that otherwise would not be available in nutrient-wiped rhizospheres, stimulating growth as opposed to stalling it out


Thats intense ! well explained Don, that is a seriously wicked deal they have going on there, i still have to finish reading teaming with microbes but i will be done with it before the end of this year, i appreciate you telling me the risk though cause im seriously paranoid about using it in a grow thats in my bedroom, if i end up feeling like you mentioned id probably finish reading teaming with microbes by 2016. I noted down the myco for the next grow though & ill be giving it a good read. Thank you again !


----------



## DonPetro (Nov 16, 2014)

Mohican said:


> @DonPetro - any pics of the screening and finished product? I would love to see it!
> 
> Throw a bunch of weeds (especially dandelions) to get more silica. I also recommend a small handful of native clay soil mixed well per 5 gallons of potting soil. It will provide a nice mixture of beneficial minerals. Try dissolving it first in a gallon of water and pouring on your soil mix.
> 
> ...


I used a level from the worm bin to screen the material. The handles double as guides which fit over the sides of the tote perfectly. Then i just slide it back and forth along the bin.
 
Here is a portion of the finished product.
 
I like the texture. 1/4" fine.
 
This is from organically raised cattle.


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## Mohican (Nov 16, 2014)

Thanks! That is beautiful!


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thats intense ! well explained Don, that is a seriously wicked deal they have going on there, i still have to finish reading teaming with microbes but i will be done with it before the end of this year, i appreciate you telling me the risk though cause im seriously paranoid about using it in a grow thats in my bedroom, if i end up feeling like you mentioned id probably finish reading teaming with microbes by 2016. I noted down the myco for the next grow though & ill be giving it a good read. Thank you again !


haha, for sure, dude. and you don't need to worry, theyre beneficial upon infection haha and can only live on live roots. best of luck


DonPetro said:


> I used a level from the worm bin to screen the material. The handles double as guides which fit over the sides of the tote perfectly. Then i just slide it back and forth along the bin.
> View attachment 3294984
> Here is a portion of the finished product.
> View attachment 3294988
> ...


if you keep this pace up the quality is gonna be through the stratosphere soon, brah. need a wheelchair soon lol
for real though, amazing how deep the rabbit hole goes


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Nov 17, 2014)

I was reading a forum article about the benefits of mycorrhizae , i heard about this in a natural farming course but never knew the scientific name, could i maybe make a solution of myco and water and syringe it into my soil ? Could this possibly work ? I want my roots infected! : )


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## Rrog (Nov 17, 2014)

The myco is in the air, and in starter soil from around your house. A shovel full of old field soil will have it.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 17, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Dont wanna be a dick here but its the worst when people suggest using things but cant help you choose the product ... : / Greasemonkey i think im going to leave out the Myco cause its not really nescessary, i think if it made such a difference Mad Ham would use it too. Just getting annoyed with buying all this shit all the time & im letting the plant get more root bound while trying to find some myco which might make it grow 0.1 of a second quicker ? jeez...


it's fine, you don't NEED, many of the things you add to an organic soil, including EWC, compost, etc... It just allows the plant to grow better.
And standard vermicompost isn't full of mychorrizae, as far as I know


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 17, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I was reading a forum article about the benefits of mycorrhizae , i heard about this in a natural farming course but never knew the scientific name, could i maybe make a solution of myco and water and syringe it into my soil ? Could this possibly work ? I want my roots infected! : )


wait.. Huh? Hmm maybe I was gone too long, You change your mind on the myco?


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I was reading a forum article about the benefits of mycorrhizae , i heard about this in a natural farming course but never knew the scientific name, could i maybe make a solution of myco and water and syringe it into my soil ? Could this possibly work ? I want my roots infected! : )


if you try it, maybe try a baby food or medicine type syringe and pre poke some holes that you will inoculate. you might need multplie syringes unless your holes are bigger. but you risk ripping roots that already exist. 

so might be best to gently dig away the mulch / topsoil until you see some little roots. then gently sprinkle and even more gently work it in a bit. 

or just up pot if you haven't flipped to flower. that would be the best way. dry myco sprinkled on entire moist (sticky) rootball, a full 360*.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> it's fine, you don't NEED, many of the things you add to an organic soil, including EWC, compost, etc... It just allows the plant to grow better.
> And standard vermicompost isn't full of mychorrizae, as far as I know


believe you be right mon. 

worms have no teeth so they rely on the sand and rocks in their gizzard to digest, as well as bacteria. so where there are lots of worms, bacteria thrives too. 

myco need live roots to infect to live, there're no roots in our farms usually except dead ones since its an underground operation technically, can't have a plant in your way, or can you?.. lol

very bacteria rich, with lots of protozoa's, nematodes, and fungi and organic matter where these and more microorganisms live. 

the best part is the worms castings create "protected enclaves" for the bacteria / fungus, plus they increase the CEC by increasing the amount of charge-holding organic surfaces. Best (growing) offence starts with a good defence.. Leeching defence


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2014)

Myco, on the other hand, be pure offence with a built in defence, its a great combo. Then leaf mold and bio-.. AGH, awe man, next level!


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> I used a level from the worm bin to screen the material. The handles double as guides which fit over the sides of the tote perfectly. Then i just slide it back and forth along the bin.
> View attachment 3294984
> Here is a portion of the finished product.
> View attachment 3294988
> ...


Tell me more about dese cattle! how good is their poop! when can we try it.. you should do an herb side by side or is it all mixed in to all our soil now lol


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 17, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> wait.. Huh? Hmm maybe I was gone too long, You change your mind on the myco?


Im keen if i can add it in to the current plants i transplanted the only problem was that i wasnt sure i was going to get the right product & the babies were getting root bound, on the other hand i still have another 3 different strains vegging which could get some myco treatment !


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Im keen if i can add it in to the current plants i transplanted the only problem was that i wasnt sure i was going to get the right product & the babies were getting root bound, on the other hand i still have another 3 different strains vegging which could get some myco treatment !


have you flipped to flower tho? on the transplants in question


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Nov 17, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> if you try it, maybe try a baby food or medicine type syringe and pre poke some holes that you will inoculate. you might need multplie syringes unless your holes are bigger. but you risk ripping roots that already exist.
> 
> so might be best to gently dig away the mulch / topsoil until you see some little roots. then gently sprinkle and even more gently work it in a bit.
> 
> or just up pot if you haven't flipped to flower. that would be the best way. dry myco sprinkled on entire moist (sticky) rootball, a full 360*.


Thank you bro, i have a few syringes i got for free at a grow store so that wont be a problem, i havent flipped to flower just yet still running 16/8 on the 250w mh with the 600w hps on standby.


----------



## DonPetro (Nov 17, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Tell me more about dese cattle! how good is their poop! when can we try it.. you should do an herb side by side or is it all mixed in to all our soil now lol


No im binning it all separate. I removed three gallons of soil from my ready bin and replaced it with three gallons of manure. So i have three gallons of recycled, amended mix without any manure in 1 gallon smart pots covered and ready to go. I want to start some herbs and maybe do a side by side once i get a light put up.


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 17, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> have you flipped to flower tho? on the transplants in question


I was trying to reply to your message but ran into some connection problems here, both plants i transplanted over the weekend went into 4 gallon containers, i still have another two 4 gallon containers, i was suppose to have 4 plants the same size of the the church & the bag seed i posted on the other page, unfortunately 2 years ago i trusted a local seed supplier which ended up growing out to be mutants, only bought seed i have now is the church which is definitely fem unlike the bagseed which i suspect might be male which leaves me with my 8" diesel hybrid growing alongside the church which is also along a 5" Mango Kush & 5" unknown bagseed, i was thinking of putting the church into a 8 gallon container then sprinkling it with myco & letting it take up most of the tent, appreciate all the help man.


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 17, 2014)

I was going to attempt to make some leaf mold from this falls big ole leaf drop, but the damn snow came in already!!


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 17, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> I was going to attempt to make some leaf mold from this falls big ole leaf drop, but the damn snow came in already!!


I've got some sectioned off with chicken wire in the back yard. The leaves really pack down well once they're mulched and wetted down a bit. L'il bit of alfalfa sprinkled on to accelerate the composting process....


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## AllDayToker (Nov 17, 2014)

So I've been cleaning up and organizing some stuff. I got like two 5 gallon buckets full of twigs, branches, and stalks, from previous plants.

I figured I would add them to my soil. How would you guys suggest adding them? Should I cut them up small or just crunch them up?


----------



## DonPetro (Nov 17, 2014)

AllDayToker said:


> I was going to attempt to make some leaf mold from this falls big ole leaf drop, but the damn snow came in already!!


I know right?! I only managed to get two 85L bags filled up.


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## AllDayToker (Nov 17, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> I know right?! I only managed to get two 85L bags filled up.


I got zero bags..

Lmao!!


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## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> No im binning it all separate. I removed three gallons of soil from my ready bin and replaced it with three gallons of manure. So i have three gallons of recycled, amended mix without any manure in 1 gallon smart pots covered and ready to go. I want to start some herbs and maybe do a side by side once i get a light put up.


preem. how u cover them 1 gals ?


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## DonPetro (Nov 17, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> preem. how u cover them 1 gals ?


They are grouped in a kitty litter box covered with an old plastic bag from a pillow. Lol


----------



## kupihea (Nov 18, 2014)

headtreep said:


> After several years and countless dollars wasted on chemical nutes and never recycling my soil I have learned the true way of gardening thanks to a great thread on ICMag.
> 
> *ALL CREDIT TO:* https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=241964 *Living organic soil from start through recycling*. *Special thanks to MM, CC, LD, Gas, and the other organic terrorists.*
> 
> ...


Wow, that's an amazing collection. And I have several of these growing in my yard, just waiting to be harvested for the cause!

Thanks headtreep


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## Shwagbag (Nov 18, 2014)

Hi organic enthusiasts! 

Is any one here familiar with a products called JAIVIK? Its said to fight harmful fungis and also increase resistance to root insects like root aphids. I'm interested in it for the insecticidal benefits. 

I believe the active ingredient for this benefit is neem cake, but I'm just not certain because I'm have trouble getting good data.

Also interested in neemate-10g.

Any info is appreciated!


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## bicit (Nov 18, 2014)

Has any one tried growing their own kelp?


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## Chronikool (Nov 18, 2014)

bicit said:


> Has any one tried growing their own kelp?


Just add ocean...?


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## Shwagbag (Nov 18, 2014)

Kelp is pretty cheap.... I know its great to grow your own everything, but I think you would have to grow a shitload of kelp to get just a measly pound of meal. 

I emailed the manu to get some information on Jaivik. I will share the info when I get it!


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## bicit (Nov 18, 2014)

Well I figured a few here dabbled in aquaculture or aquaponics. Figured someone may have tried it.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 18, 2014)

Hopefully someone can help! Please share if you find something and/or decide to take the plunge. Aquaponics gives me a bOner, but I won't have time for that shit until I'm retired lol.


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## Chronikool (Nov 18, 2014)

bicit said:


> Well I figured a few here dabbled in aquaculture or aquaponics. Figured someone may have tried it.


Sorry...i was just of the belief that one of the benefits of kelp is the fact that it accumulates a lot of the seas minerals...i dont know if you could replicate that...

Actually i dont even know if im right...hahaha...


----------



## st0wandgrow (Nov 18, 2014)

bicit said:


> Well I figured a few here dabbled in aquaculture or aquaponics. Figured someone may have tried it.


I like you're thinking, but I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze on this one.

That's not to say that there aren't plenty of other plants and weeds that can be found in the backyard that are beneficial, and maybe a tad easier to grow/harvest/use than kelp.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 18, 2014)

Growing tobacco is fun and you can use it for insecticide. I bloomed a cpl plants and got thousands of seeds from it and I'm drying the leaves.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Nov 19, 2014)

I tried growing tommacoo, but it didn't work out too well with the big corporation, wait that was a Simpson episode.


----------



## bicit (Nov 19, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Sorry...i was just of the belief that one of the benefits of kelp is the fact that it accumulates a lot of the seas minerals...i dont know if you could replicate that...
> 
> Actually i dont even know if im right...hahaha...


Well there would still be minerals and what have you in an aqua culture environment. Though devoid of the sheer variety that one would see im the ocean I guess. 

I know kelp is raised commercially, but most of the methods seem proprietary and heavily guarded. I guess it's a competitive field.

Too much to research, not enough time in a human life span


----------



## AllDayToker (Nov 19, 2014)

So I've been cleaning up and organizing some stuff. I got like two 5 gallon buckets full of twigs, branches, and stalks, from previous plants.

I figured I would add them to my soil. How would you guys suggest adding them? Should I cut them up small or just crunch them up?


----------



## Mohican (Nov 19, 2014)

Bio-char!
















Cheers,
Mo


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 19, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've got some sectioned off with chicken wire in the back yard. The leaves really pack down well once they're mulched and wetted down a bit. L'il bit of alfalfa sprinkled on to accelerate the composting process....
> 
> View attachment 3295657





AllDayToker said:


> I was going to attempt to make some leaf mold from this falls big ole leaf drop, but the damn snow came in already!!


I put these two quotes together, because Stow has the right idea, even in really cold temps if you add enough nitrogen (green leaf) you can get the temps high enough for composting, you just need to cover it and you'll see it start steaming soon enough


----------



## Shwagbag (Nov 19, 2014)

Scoring a 50lb bag of Jaivik to play with! You guys know I'm excited, because everyone here gets excited for pewpy soil conditioners and new samples lol.

Link to product here.


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## Mohican (Nov 19, 2014)

These leaves keep my ground wet and break down the clay soil. They also keep the weeds at bay.



Cheers,
Mo


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Nov 19, 2014)

Mohican said:


> These leaves keep my ground wet and break down the clay soil. They also keep the weeds at bay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lovely dude gives an awesome look to it aswell, have you tried with other types of mulches before aswell ? Im looking for something to add mulch to a veggie garden outside close to the pool, something that wont blow away easily, if you got any suggestions that would be sweet, on the other hand what do you guys use for mulching your indoor pots ? Possibly i can get something that will work for both situations, thank you : ) ! Peace


----------



## smokey the cat (Nov 20, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> Kelp is pretty cheap.... I know its great to grow your own everything, but I think you would have to grow a shitload of kelp to get just a measly pound of meal.


Sheeeeeiiiit... I haven't bought any kelp yet.

I just nip over to the beach and gather some. I have no idea if it's the right sort of kelp, I just grab a couple of bag fulls of fresh brown kelp washed up below the high tide mark.

I've tried dosing with a fresh kelp tea - not sure if it's doing anything special yet. But the liquid sure can get pretty gloopy after a couple of day's soaking.

It vanishes fast in my compost bin - worms seem to make it vanish in a couple of weeks.

Tried drying some to make a dried kelp that I could use like you folks do with kelp meal, but more than a day outside in the spring weather it kept getting rained on and the fronds would hydrate itself quick smart, lol.


----------



## Shwagbag (Nov 20, 2014)

What is everyone's favorite added carbohydrate? 

My first runs with cannabis were with FFOF soil and Aurora Innovations Buddha Bloom with some added lime. I was pleasantly surprised at my first run, pretty amazed actually. Buddha Bloom has the carbs and nutrients all in one soluble organic fertilizer. 

Since then I've gone to my own soil mixture after tweaking Sub's mix over the past few years. Its adequately inoculated during the mixing process and after, occasionally throughout the flowering cycle.... But I haven't used carbs in a while, something I feel may work really well to help feed the soil and perhaps promote enhanced vigor. 

I top dressed with dry molasses for awhile... I could physically see micro growth on top of the soil, which was cool. I just don't know how well it works down in the root zone. I think I'm going to include some dried molasses in my next mix, but in the meantime I'd like some suggestions for feeding carbs to the soil.

I've used molasses in the past, but man the stuff is kind of a PITA to work with, so messy and thick. For my vegetable garden teas I would dilute the liquids (Netptunes harvest w/ molasses) in warm water and pre mix 6 at a time, so it was easier to work with when the time came for brewing.

I'm just curious what y'all are doing for carbs.

Thanks!


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 20, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> What is everyone's favorite added carbohydrate?
> 
> My first runs with cannabis were with FFOF soil and Aurora Innovations Buddha Bloom with some added lime. I was pleasantly surprised at my first run, pretty amazed actually. Buddha Bloom has the carbs and nutrients all in one soluble organic fertilizer.
> 
> ...


just speaking for myself, but I don't add any carbs, unless you count the molasses I use for my AACTs but i'm thinking the microbes eat most of that, at least that's my understanding of it, other than that, I don't add anything other than topdresses or the occasional (maybe 3 times, or often less, a grow) nutrient teas. I really love molasses but I have bad luck using it any other way than a carb for the AACTs. Never used dry molasses, isn't that alfalfa soaked in molasses?
Can't really see the advantage of it, in a good amended soil. Could be wrong...


----------



## Shwagbag (Nov 20, 2014)

The dry molasses I've used was soy bean meal soaked in molasses, but I'm sure its available in different forms.

If you're using teas, then you're using carbs from where I'm sitting. You're essentially inoculating water, feeding the inoculation carbs and then releasing them into your soil.

I love the use of teas in my outdoor garden, but as much as I've tried using them indoors I just don't like the work and mess of it.... Which is why I kinda like the dry molasses.

The advantage of dry molasses, or at least I presume, is that I can inoculate the soil, then feed the the soil a clean (dry) form of molasses. Preferably, top dress with dry molasses, then inoculate. I presume it works because I can see some fuzzy shit growing on the molasses within a couple days after watering. I'm planning to add a bunch to my compost piles next spring and I hope it will get'er'cookin', perhaps even into my next indoor flowering soil mix.

The main issue I have with dry molasses is that its pricey b/c I can't find it locally. It really sucks paying a premium for good organic ingredients for soil. I don't live far from significant farming communities, yet a diverse selection of quality organic ingredients is an hour or more drive away from me.

I've considered Bud Candy for its additional ingredients besides carbs, but I don't know if I can justify the cost, and I don't want to excessively influence the naturally occurring properties i.e. odor, flavor - that distinguish the various strains of cannabis I'm cultivating.

So, I've heard corn syrup, maple syrup, sucrose etc. are acceptable forms of carbohydrates for plants. What say my peers about the other various forms of carbohydrates that are readily usable by beneficial bacteria and fungi?

Love this thread!


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 20, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> The dry molasses I've used was soy bean meal soaked in molasses, but I'm sure its available in different forms.
> 
> If you're using teas, then you're using carbs from where I'm sitting. You're essentially inoculating water, feeding the inoculation carbs and then releasing them into your soil.
> 
> ...


I do see your point, but in my mind isn't most if not all of the molasses being consumed by the microbes in the AACT? I just don't see a whole lot of the remaining sugars being left, especially if you brew for a good 48 hrs at least


----------



## st0wandgrow (Nov 20, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> The dry molasses I've used was soy bean meal soaked in molasses, but I'm sure its available in different forms.
> 
> If you're using teas, then you're using carbs from where I'm sitting. You're essentially inoculating water, feeding the inoculation carbs and then releasing them into your soil.
> 
> ...



I've used Agave nectar a couple times when out of molasses. Seems to do the trick.... but it's pretty expensive.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've used Agave nectar a couple times when out of molasses. Seems to do the trick.... but it's pretty expensive.


hey stow any fancy growth hormones or anything like that in the Agave?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 20, 2014)

My first runs with cannabis were with FFOF soil and Aurora Innovations Buddha Bloom with some added lime. I was pleasantly surprised at my first run, pretty amazed actually. Buddha Bloom has the carbs and nutrients all in one soluble organic fertilizer.

Since then I've gone to my own soil mixture after tweaking Sub's mix over the past few years. Its adequately inoculated during the mixing process and after, occasionally throughout the flowering cycle.... But I haven't used carbs in a while, something I feel may work really well to help feed the soil and perhaps promote enhanced vigor.

I top dressed with dry molasses for awhile... I could physically see micro growth on top of the soil, which was cool. I just don't know how well it works down in the root zone. I think I'm going to include some dried molasses in my next mix, but in the meantime I'd like some suggestions for feeding carbs to the soil.

I've used molasses in the past, but man the stuff is kind of a PITA to work with, so messy and thick. For my vegetable garden teas I would dilute the liquids (Netptunes harvest w/ molasses) in warm water and pre mix 6 at a time, so it was easier to work with when the time came for brewing.

I'm just curious what y'all are doing for carbs.

Thanks![/QUOTE]
And Shwag....You have a fantastic ass by the way.
I'm kidding I know its not you... and if it is, well, than I stand by my original statement!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Nov 20, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hey stow any fancy growth hormones or anything like that in the Agave?


Not that I'm aware of grease. On the label it seems to be completely devoid of iron, mg, etc that you would find in BSM.... so, it would purely be a carb source for the micro-beasties.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 20, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Not that I'm aware of grease. On the label it seems to be completely devoid of iron, mg, etc that you would find in BSM.... so, it would purely be a carb source for the micro-beasties.


ahh, so pretty much just to be used in a pinch... or perhaps an aspiring tequila connoisseur?


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 20, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> The dry molasses I've used was soy bean meal soaked in molasses, but I'm sure its available in different forms.
> 
> If you're using teas, then you're using carbs from where I'm sitting. You're essentially inoculating water, feeding the inoculation carbs and then releasing them into your soil.
> 
> ...


The point is to feed the various microbes/bacteria/fungi so they can multiply and or grow, so you are both right.

AACT's the food source is the OBSM and if ratio'd for peak efficiency at 5ml per 1000ml gets used up for most part. 

But by using a dehydrated (and re-hydrated) molasses sounds like your getting fungal hyphae pretty quickly. They are invisible to the naked eye until 500 of them make a strand, so when there are patches, the numbers are staggering.

I prefer to do the AACT's but i don't really like working with it either.

Wonder if you could pop a couple dried pellets in a tea, would they dissolve in a bubbled water?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 20, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> The point is to feed the various microbes/bacteria/fungi so they can multiply and or grow, so you are both right.
> 
> AACT's the food source is the OBSM and if ratio'd for peak efficiency at 5ml per 1000ml gets used up for most part.
> 
> ...


NO shit? you don't like AACTs? i'll be damned... I thought you were a believer in it. BUT, from what I've seen with your growing techniques I severely doubt that you have a shortage of microbes in your soil


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## DonPetro (Nov 20, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> The point is to feed the various microbes/bacteria/fungi so they can multiply and or grow, so you are both right.
> 
> AACT's the food source is the OBSM and if ratio'd for peak efficiency at 5ml per 1000ml gets used up for most part.
> 
> ...


Just add water...thats my preferred method.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 20, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> just speaking for myself, but I don't add any carbs, unless you count the molasses I use for my AACTs but i'm thinking the microbes eat most of that, at least that's my understanding of it, other than that, I don't add anything other than topdresses or the occasional (maybe 3 times, or often less, a grow) nutrient teas. I really love molasses but I have bad luck using it any other way than a carb for the AACTs. Never used dry molasses, isn't that alfalfa soaked in molasses?
> Can't really see the advantage of it, in a good amended soil. Could be wrong...



molasses, kelp and seed sprout tea's


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 20, 2014)

Rrog posted this in his organic thread (MI section), and I thought I would share it here. Fascinating stuff!!

http://www.motherjones.com/environment/2014/11/gastropod-microbiome-fungus-cassava



.


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## DonTesla (Nov 20, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Just add water...thats my preferred method.





greasemonkeymann said:


> NO shit? you don't like AACTs? i'll be damned... I thought you were a believer in it. BUT, from what I've seen with your growing techniques I severely doubt that you have a shortage of microbes in your soil


I think there is good place for tea's in organic growing, but for me, ideally would be no teas during the grow if the soil was well inoculated and amended. 

If i see one bug i don't like (aphid etc), i like to add a Frass tea

If it got too dry/stressed, or top dress with something like basic mix, i inoculate

Edit: It was the thick syrupy molasses i don't like to work with so much, ha

But since I'm doing a re veg and what not, I don't see a problem with another tea or two for the ladies.
Usually our soil can finish plants with some sheen, even 11 wk sativas.

So the next test will be the Black Forrest, a 7 month beast!

@DonPetro, thatta boi!!

@stowandgrow 5x more yield with the myco?! Dam. them girls say fungi cute ha


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## Chronikool (Nov 20, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> I think there is good place for tea's in organic growing, but for me, ideally would be no teas during the grow if the soil was well inoculated and amended.


I have also cut out teas from my growing regime...Base soil sorted...enzymes, fish, seasweed top ups along the way...,my C99 is responding well...


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## smokey the cat (Nov 20, 2014)

I heartily recommend AACT for potted plants that are struggling. I have had great success with them on ornamentals and what not.

It seems like the quickest way to introduce a food source to the soil - the plant responds with fresh growth and any deficiencies seem to clear up. Definitely improves the tone of poor quality soil - things look more humus-like after a dose of AACT. Haven't compared it to a simple compost slurry though.



Actually, common sense tells me though that fuck all of the fungi would make it below the top layer of soil. If a compost brewer needs a 400micron mesh bag to let fungi get into a tea, there is no way the brewed fungi are going to be carried by water through the soil into the plant's root zone. Might not matter though - maybe close enough is good enough: dead fungi on the surface would still be a great microbial food source.


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## hyroot (Nov 20, 2014)

my soil I'm sure is highly populated with microbes. Every time I water with an aact I immediately see a difference in leaves praying. The next day the buds swell up 25% -50% more. Depending on strain. If you use fabric pots. A great deal of the soil especially along the edges dry out. So watering with an aact will re add those lost microbes. I did aact every other watering. Then cut back to once a month. Now I'm doing them every other or every 3rd watering. Then sst's and kelp / alfalfa teas the rest.


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## DonTesla (Nov 20, 2014)

yea, the fabrics sure breathe more, i even mist the outsides sometimes. And a thick meaty vegetarian mulch, mon. but nothing like holding a happy smart pot a little while after watering. Like holding a baby, you can just _feel_ the precious life in harmony and balance.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 21, 2014)

Good stuff guys, thanks for the discussion!


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## Shwagbag (Nov 21, 2014)

Here's a question... Have any of you seen any positive results from just bubbling water and giving it to your plants in inoculated soil with carbs like dry molasses in the soil?

I realize its not the same as multiplying bact/fungi in a tea, but I wonder if it has any benefits none the less.

I LOVE AACT. But I hate the mess so bad lol.

Another question RE grass tea. How does it work against root aphids?


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 21, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> I think there is good place for tea's in organic growing, but for me, ideally would be no teas during the grow if the soil was well inoculated and amended.
> 
> If i see one bug i don't like (aphid etc), i like to add a Frass tea
> 
> ...


hey do you ferment your frass tea, or do anything extra to extract the chitin? Bubble? Boil?


----------



## Chronikool (Nov 21, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> Here's a question... Have any of you seen any positive results from just bubbling water and giving it to your plants in inoculated soil with carbs like dry molasses in the soil?


I alwayz have a 'pot ole' water' bubbling away...sometimes they just get aerated water...Im liking my current mix....


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## Shwagbag (Nov 21, 2014)

Nice plants Cronik  Do eye spy a kitty hair? lol

I think I will bubble some H20 as well, clean style lol. 

I did some research on glycerol as a carbohydrate last night, but it doesn't appear that its very effective. Not exactly organic either, but I thought it may still be applicable to organic growing styles.


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## Chronikool (Nov 21, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> Nice plants Cronik  Do eye spy a kitty hair? lol
> 
> I think I will bubble some H20 as well, clean style lol.


Close....itz a pubic hair...


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## DonPetro (Nov 21, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> I alwayz have a 'pot ole' water' bubbling away...sometimes they just get aerated water...Im liking my current mix....
> 
> View attachment 3298355


What strain you got going there? Looks great!


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## DonTesla (Nov 21, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hey do you ferment your frass tea, or do anything extra to extract the chitin? Bubble? Boil?


Dry is fastest and easiest, just work it in.

An 8 hour soak is better.

Activated with air i have heard that adding it an hour before use is ideal,
have also heard you can aerate it for longer.

Still looking for some microscopic confirmations but if not used stronger than recc'd you can use it weekly. I find one dose has repeated effects every watering though. We usually try find the minimum effective dose, the MED principle


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 21, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> I alwayz have a 'pot ole' water' bubbling away...sometimes they just get aerated water...Im liking my current mix....
> 
> View attachment 3298355


She furry with FROST!!


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 21, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> yea, the fabrics sure breathe more, i even mist the outsides sometimes. And a thick meaty vegetarian mulch, mon. but nothing like holding a happy smart pot a little while after watering. Like holding a baby, you can just _feel_ the precious life in harmony and balance.



So what's the verdict on the fabric pots? I've been rocking the old school black plastic containers for years.

Is it a noticeable difference?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 21, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Dry is fastest and easiest, just work it in.
> 
> An 8 hour soak is better.
> 
> ...


whats the application rate?
how much per gallon, and do you dilute it?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Nov 21, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> So what's the verdict on the fabric pots? I've been rocking the old school black plastic containers for years.
> 
> Is it a noticeable difference?


I love fabric pots, Stow, it a worthwhile investment in my opinion, only downfalls are moving them can be a pain, the pots are all short (relatively compared to plastic)and transplanting from them is a bitch (I've seen some with a Velcro "seam" but haven't tried them)
good stuff though, i switched out all mine about six yrs ago or so.
I am toying around with the idea of making my own, and making mine square too, to maximize my growing area. Not sure why somebody hasn't come up with that already


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 21, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I love fabric pots, Stow, it a worthwhile investment in my opinion, only downfalls are moving them can be a pain, the pots are all short (relatively compared to plastic)and transplanting from them is a bitch (I've seen some with a Velcro "seam" but haven't tried them)
> good stuff though, i switched out all mine about six yrs ago or so.
> I am toying around with the idea of making my own, and making mine square too, to maximize my growing area. Not sure why somebody hasn't come up with that already



Man, you might have just sold me. I'm not worried about transplants. I go from cloner, to small 1/2 gallon square container, right to the final 10 gallon container. Those 10 gals are no-tills, so the soil would stay put for a good year or longer.

I just bought a bunch of new plastic ones too. Frig. Wonder if drilling holes all along the sides would be beneficial? I just hate to not use them considering I just bought them. Maybe I'll pick up a few fabric ones and just do a little side x side comparison before I replace them all...


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## CannaBare (Nov 21, 2014)

I made my fabric pots homemade and I can say that if you are going to go for freestanding pots then go cylindrical. I made some squares at first too but if they are too big they bulge out and make a circle anyway, unless you use a pvc frame then they just bulge. I do love the fabric pots! Although the edges are always bone dry with blumats my plants are always praying. I try to give them water daily for the heck of it because I hate the dry edges, but they plants do not seem to mind at all.


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 21, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> I made my fabric pots homemade and I can say that if you are going to go for freestanding pots then go cylindrical. I made some squares at first too but if they are too big they bulge out and make a circle anyway, unless you use a pvc frame then they just bulge. I do love the fabric pots! Although the edges are always bone dry with blumats my plants are always praying. I try to give them water daily for the heck of it because I hate the dry edges, but they plants do not seem to mind at all.


i'm mostly wanting to maximize the amount of soil, in the space provided, you can fit more in a square pot, no?


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## CannaBare (Nov 21, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> i'm mostly wanting to maximize the amount of soil, in the space provided, you can fit more in a square pot, no?


If they are no-till and you can allow the plants to grow into each others pots then it will work fabulously. Square is honestly better if you do not plan to move them.


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 21, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Man, you might have just sold me. I'm not worried about transplants. I go from cloner, to small 1/2 gallon square container, right to the final 10 gallon container. Those 10 gals are no-tills, so the soil would stay put for a good year or longer.
> 
> I just bought a bunch of new plastic ones too. Frig. Wonder if drilling holes all along the sides would be beneficial? I just hate to not use them considering I just bought them. Maybe I'll pick up a few fabric ones and just do a little side x side comparison before I replace them all...


one thing i wish i did, is buy the lighter colored ones, half of mine are black, and i wished i got them all light colored, the black, which is a whore when you do an outside harvest, the black fabric get the roots a lil more hot than i'd prefer. But if you are inside, it doesn;t matter, obviously


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## Shwagbag (Nov 21, 2014)

Check out Oregon Breathers. They last quite awhile and have handles. Makes moving a cinch as long as your not growing trees.

I'm doing my first runs with airpots. I ran breathers for years. They work awesome but cleaning them sucks.


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## Chronikool (Nov 22, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> What strain you got going there? Looks great!


Thanks Bruv....that is the C99 by 'female seeds'. Sativa leaves, pineapple bubblegum pheno... just a delight to grow.


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 22, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Thanks Bruv....that is the C99 by 'female seeds'. Sativa leaves, pineapple bubblegum pheno... just a delight to grow.


Led plus quality seeds and rols= dank fucking herb!


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## bicit (Nov 22, 2014)

Would a 27 gallon container be adequate for no-till with 2 hungry mouths to feed? Plastic container that is.

Another question, has anyone tried watering or foiler feeding with water from an aquaculture or aquaponics setup?


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## AllDayToker (Nov 22, 2014)

Fabric pots for the win. Grow one side by side easy to tell the difference.


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 23, 2014)

bicit said:


> Would a 27 gallon container be adequate for no-till with 2 hungry mouths to feed? Plastic container that is.


That will be great! That's almost 4 cf..... I think you're gonna like the results of that!


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## CannaBare (Nov 23, 2014)

Does anybody experience Sulfur deficiencies? I'm pretty surprised I even have it so I topdressed with mullein for long term and fed a gypsum tea for a fast acting fix. Only one plant was showing it hard so maybe it's sulfur hungry?

Gypsum tea
3 cups water 
1tsp gypsum

Next morning
1 cup gypsum solution
1 gal water
Feed.


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 23, 2014)

Hey guys, i have an updated pic of everything growing, if i may ask would you suggest me trying to scrog these ladies ? Im confused as how to manage all the different sizes, should i possibly scrog ? then just use box's to lift the plants accordingly ? Dont mean to be going off topic but any help would be appreciated. Peace


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 23, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey guys, i have an updated pic of everything growing, if i may ask would you suggest me trying to scrog these ladies ? Im confused as how to manage all the different sizes, should i possibly scrog ? then just use box's to lift the plants accordingly ? Dont mean to be going off topic but any help would be appreciated. Peace



Do you have access to tomato cages? I find those very useful in maintaining an even canopy. Anything that grows beyond the top rung of the tomato cage just gets tucked under.

Like this:



Edit: Your plants look great btw!


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## Shwagbag (Nov 23, 2014)

I 2nd cages and/or topping and super cropping would be my preferred method. Nice ladies!


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Do you have access to tomato cages? I find those very useful in maintaining an even canopy. Anything that grows beyond the top rung of the tomato cage just gets tucked under.
> 
> Like this:
> 
> ...


Thank you man, ill definitely take a look at some tomato cages, im sure i have seen them around, im planning on using as much of the 3x3 as i can though, maybe i should use a tomato cage for the church & just let the rest grow naturally ? Peace man the plants are happy !


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 24, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> I 2nd cages and/or topping and super cropping would be my preferred method. Nice ladies!


I think the one on the right might not be a nice lady, sad though, the side branches and stem are all purple the genetics look extremely interesting, i have probably 2 more seeds left of the same genetic which should last another year or two but yeah just going to pull it and transplant the second biggest out of the rest. Tomato cage search this weekend Thank you ! : )


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## Shwagbag (Nov 24, 2014)

I hope she's nice after all. I have a couple strains that have purple-ish stems that don't represent any type of concern.... The stems are meaty so they can take an aggressive super crop, which I like very much  And the herb is dank, so who knows.

My growing style is all about super cropping about a dozen different strains at different stages and ages to keep my canopy even in a perpetual garden. Check out the super cropping link in my sig if you're interested in seeing some SC posts. It works great to keep a canopy low and wide without the necessity of screens.


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 24, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> I hope she's nice after all. I have a couple strains that have purple-ish stems that don't represent any type of concern.... The stems are meaty so they can take an aggressive super crop, which I like very much  And the herb is dank, so who knows.
> 
> My growing style is all about super cropping about a dozen different strains at different stages and ages to keep my canopy even in a perpetual garden. Check out the super cropping link in my sig if you're interested in seeing some SC posts. It works great to keep a canopy low and wide without the necessity of screens.


End of the day the differentiation is awesome, definitely got to be something dank with a stem like that man : ) even the male smells dank lol but yeah in the morning its going down... im going to transplant that smaller middle plant in my pic i posted which is apparently a diesel hybrid, i can already see a female calyx forming & the smells just gives it away. 

Ill definitely check out that link in your sig bro, appreciate the help, much respect


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 24, 2014)

I've tried searching through this whole thread (200+ pages is a lot on a phone, even in general) but can't find the answer I'm looking for. 

For no till, what's the smallest you could successfully pull it off with a fabric planter? I've seen some say 15 gallons is about the smallest that will work, is that true?


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 24, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've tried searching through this whole thread (200+ pages is a lot on a phone, even in general) but can't find the answer I'm looking for.
> 
> For no till, what's the smallest you could successfully pull it off with a fabric planter? I've seen some say 15 gallons is about the smallest that will work, is that true?


Not true. I use #10 plastic buckets which are apx 7.5 gallons, or 1cf and I run no-till.


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Not true. I use #10 plastic buckets which are apx 7.5 gallons, or 1cf and I run no-till.


I'm going to attempt to run a no till grow with 3, 3 gallon fabric planters. Do you think they're too small?


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 24, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm going to attempt to run a no till grow with 3, 3 gallon fabric planters. Do you think they're too small?


I'm not sure. A lot of knowledgeable folks claim that 5 gal is the smallest you want to go.

Only one way to find out though....


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm not sure. A lot of knowledgeable folks claim that 5 gal is the smallest you want to go.
> 
> Only one way to find out though....


I'm hoping they will be! Either way, I'll find out and post the results


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Not true. I use #10 plastic buckets which are apx 7.5 gallons, or 1cf and I run no-till.


how long do you vege for stow?
I go with 12 or 15 gallon smartpots, and I like a lil room for topdressing. I could probably go smaller, but 9 of the 12/15 gallon pots fills my room up about perfectly


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm not sure. A lot of knowledgeable folks claim that 5 gal is the smallest you want to go.
> 
> Only one way to find out though....


i'd have a couple trepidations about running 5 gallon pots with a no-till, BUT.... course if you go straight into them from cloning/seedling, it'd be fine, course my strains are some stretchy sativas, so I like a lil legroom for them, plus I vege for a lil bit too


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 24, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm going to attempt to run a no till grow with 3, 3 gallon fabric planters. Do you think they're too small?


I think you might have problems with only 3 gallons, gotta remember that a three gallon fabric pot doesn't actually hold three gallons (I know, it's stupid)
I'd go at LEAST a five gallon, no-tills need a lil extra room.
Ideally a ten gallon would be perfect or better yet a fifteen


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 24, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> how long do you vege for stow?
> I go with 12 or 15 gallon smartpots, and I like a lil room for topdressing. I could probably go smaller, but 9 of the 12/15 gallon pots fills my room up about perfectly


2-3 weeks in a small container, then 2-3 more in the big bucket (strain dependent).


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 24, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I think you might have problems with only 3 gallons, gotta remember that a three gallon fabric pot doesn't actually hold three gallons (I know, it's stupid)
> I'd go at LEAST a five gallon, no-tills need a lil extra room.
> Ideally a ten gallon would be perfect or better yet a fifteen


I'd like to use bigger planters, but I think the 5 gal ones may be the biggest ones I can fit in my tent 2x4x6 without severely limiting my plant count (I like running multiple strains at once). 
I've got a batch of Scotts og ladies that I'm running 12 12 from seed, 6 to be exact, that I'm going going to try in the 3 gallon planters as no till. I'll probably do three or four cycles of 12 12 in them to see if they work like I need.


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## Chronikool (Nov 24, 2014)

Im running a 3 gallon pot... working well..the only thing is that you'll probably have to water/feed a bit more then your bigger ROLs setups....


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 24, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Im running a 3 gallon pot... working well..the only thing is that you'll probably have to water/feed a bit more then your bigger ROLs setups....


What's your watering schedule like? I'm completely new to no till and have been wondering how watering would work for pots like mine


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## Chronikool (Nov 24, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> What's your watering schedule like? I'm completely new to no till and have been wondering how watering would work for pots like mine


i water everyday....not a lot...about a litre or so...im of the mindset of not letting my soil dryout and keep those microbes active...

it also keepz me motivated..in that i check my plantz everyday...so any potential problems can be remedied then...


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 24, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> i water everyday....not a lot...about a litre or so...im of the mindset of not letting my soil dryout and keep those microbes active...
> 
> it also keepz me motivated..in that i check my plantz everyday...so any potential problems can be remedied then...


A liter per day in a 3 gallon? What kind of lights and temp/rh do you have?


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## Chronikool (Nov 24, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> A liter per day in a 3 gallon? What kind of lights and temp/rh do you have?


like i said...i dont let my soil dry out...400w DIY LED....dont measure tempz or humidity


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 24, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> like i said...i dont let my soil dry out...400w DIY LED....dont measure tempz or humidity


Interesting. It's probably my history of just using bagged soil and not recycling, but that sounds like it would be inviting root rot. 


Anyone else water like this?


----------



## Chronikool (Nov 24, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Interesting. It's probably my history of just using bagged soil and not recycling, but that sounds like it would be inviting root rot.
> 
> 
> Anyone else water like this?


I arent talking about saturating the soil...and i like to think i have proper aeration practices in place (coco and zeolite) so that there is alwayz adequate oxygen present in the root zone..,


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## Chronikool (Nov 24, 2014)

i havent had any root rot....ill update my latest girl a bit later for you...


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## CannaBare (Nov 24, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Interesting. It's probably my history of just using bagged soil and not recycling, but that sounds like it would be inviting root rot.
> 
> 
> Anyone else water like this?


As long as the plant is healthy and the soil is living you shouldn't have those issues. I know I never do. I have my RH at 60% and temps at 83, water everyday as well. The plants love me!!!!


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## DonPetro (Nov 24, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> I arent talking about saturating the soil...and i like to think i have proper aeration practices in place (coco and zeolite) so that there is alwayz adequate oxygen present in the root zone..,


How do you like the zeolite and what size particle? I recently incorporated it into my mix but have yet to run anything through it. 

@DonTesla are you into the new batch with the zeolite yet or is it still mellowing?


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## Chronikool (Nov 24, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> How do you like the zeolite and what size particle? I recently incorporated it into my mix but have yet to run anything through it.


Ummmm....Well i initially got into using it because it was left over kitty litter and that was all i had....hahaha...i've used it for over a year and a half now and i find it really good. The particle fluctuates between around 5mm to 1mm size...doesnt float either. 

I havent re-amended it at all as i use coco to half my base....probably could give a topup soon..


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## DonTesla (Nov 24, 2014)

@DonPetro Mellowing it still! mostly cause waiting for babies another 10 days or so.. but it sure has a wicked texture and look. and it hasnt dried out as much it seems


----------



## smokey the cat (Nov 25, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Interesting. It's probably my history of just using bagged soil and not recycling, but that sounds like it would be inviting root rot.
> 
> 
> Anyone else water like this?


Different approach to managing moisture levels:

A plant in good compost has soil life which acts as a water buffer. Water is held within the micro life - and plant shares their water.

Bagged mix dries out really really light, and when it does the plant shows stress faster cause there are much lower numbers of water holding organisms.

Blew my mind when the difference between bagged mix and alive soil was made clear to me.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Nov 25, 2014)

You guys are mind blowing lol ! loving the information !!!!


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 25, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> Different approach to managing moisture levels:
> 
> A plant in good compost has soil life which acts as a water buffer. Water is held within the micro life - and plant shares their water.
> 
> ...


Thank you for this, wow! This completely relieved everything I was stressing over. 
I can't wait to post my results now


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 25, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> I arent talking about saturating the soil...and i like to think i have proper aeration practices in place (coco and zeolite) so that there is alwayz adequate oxygen present in the root zone..,


I wasn't doubting you, more so myself actually. But I'm going g to take your advice. Everyone else agrees more or sell (=


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 25, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Interesting. It's probably my history of just using bagged soil and not recycling, but that sounds like it would be inviting root rot.
> 
> 
> Anyone else water like this?


it's just a liter man, that isn't much at all, a three gallon pot will have a more dense rootball and therefore slurp up the water quicker.
especially if he has good airflow


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## smokey the cat (Nov 25, 2014)

It's weird yeah.

Compost holds heaps of water, so when I started adding decent homemade compost to my bagged grow mix things did stay wetter than I had expected. I was lazy and had got in the habit of using fuck all aeration media, cause the bagged mix was so fast draining it didn't really need it.

That guide of 1/3 aereation is a good one.


What influenced me originally to eschew aeration was Mike from Mandela seeds - who has been preaching simple soil growing for years. He has always talked about aeration as "dead space" cause it denies space to growing media and plant roots. I think he's right when looking at potting mixes sold in Europe where he is based - more average soil is better than less average soil as far as the plant is concerned.

Different to a ROLS setup for sure. Wish Mike would post more - it'd be interesting to get his perspective on this style of growing.


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## greasemonkeymann (Nov 26, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> It's weird yeah.
> 
> Compost holds heaps of water, so when I started adding decent homemade compost to my bagged grow mix things did stay wetter than I had expected. I was lazy and had got in the habit of using fuck all aeration media, cause the bagged mix was so fast draining it didn't really need it.
> 
> ...


cannabis likes a lot of drainage, more than most plants, and them being a fast-growing and relatively high-feeder and you can see why it's sorta challenging to grow them indoors in pots.
Check out biochar, and either pumice or the red volcanic rock, those work nicely for aeration, and it's not "dead space" especially the biochar, its full of little places for microbial life, which in turn helps the soil-health


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 26, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> it's just a liter man, that isn't much at all, a three gallon pot will have a more dense rootball and therefore slurp up the water quicker.
> especially if he has good airflow


I guess it's just my experience with using bagged soil that makes me think like that. Obviously my views are going to change as I get more used to rols and notill. Heck, even just mixing my own soil has changed it a bit. 

Has anyone used rice hulls for aeration? I'm using them for my current run.


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## CannaBare (Nov 26, 2014)

greasemonkeymann said:


> cannabis likes a lot of drainage, more than most plants, and them being a fast-growing and relatively high-feeder and you can see why it's sorta challenging to grow them indoors in pots.
> Check out biochar, and either pumice or the red volcanic rock, those work nicely for aeration, and it's not "dead space" especially the biochar, its full of little places for microbial life, which in turn helps the soil-health


In addition to the biochar. Go to your local pottery stores and ask for broken unglazed pottery. Great porous aeration!


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 26, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Has anyone used rice hulls for aeration? I'm using them for my current run.


Yes.

It's cheap, and it's a bi-product of an existing industry so it fits nicely with organics IMO. The downside is that it will degrade over time unlike a lot of other aeration options. I'd say you're safe for 2, 3, possibly 4 runs of no-till before it stops serving it's purpose.

The plus side is that when it breaks down it does benefit the soil, albeit in a different way. Rice hulls are composed mostly of lignin and silica. Lignin will decompose in to a rich source of humus, and obviously the silica (whatever portion is bio available) is greatly beneficial to the plant as well.

I like using it, but I don't use it as my sole source of aeration. If possible I'd suggest cutting it with something else that does not break down at maybe a 50/50 ratio.


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## Midwest Weedist (Nov 26, 2014)

I'd like to stay away from Perlite but are there other organic alternatives to rice hulls? 


st0wandgrow said:


> Yes.
> 
> It's cheap, and it's a bi-product of an existing industry so it fits nicely with organics IMO. The downside is that it will degrade over time unlike a lot of other aeration options. I'd say you're safe for 2, 3, possibly 4 runs of no-till before it stops serving it's purpose.
> 
> ...


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 26, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'd like to stay away from Perlite but are there other organic alternatives to rice hulls?


Crushed lava rock and pumice are popular ones. I've used lava rock, but can't source any pumice around my parts. 

I used old hydroton balls from my hydro days too. Those are now out in the veggie garden somewhere


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## DonPetro (Nov 26, 2014)

Zeolite is great for aeration and moisture retention. I've also been looking at oyster shell for aeration. I have so much perlite though i almost feel bad not using it. I don't really mind it too much but it is really dusty.


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## foreverflyhi (Nov 26, 2014)

Currently running a vermiuclite/perlite mix and a pumice/ricehulls/lava rock mix. Believe it or the vermiculite mix seems more richer and aerated.


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 27, 2014)

I wanted to get Pumice or Rice Hulls but i was low on funds at the time & just opted for perlite which was dusty like Don said, i did however rinse it out though, not my favourite thing to use as i have also had my fair share on reading about it, apparently the heavy aluminium content in it can be absorbed by the bud ? 

Peace


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## smokey the cat (Nov 27, 2014)

Perlite here is really expensive lol, so it was cheaper when I switched to pumice. 

I think perlite had the issues with aluminium back in the 90s and new stuff is ok. Or am I misremembering? The dust is still an irritant and I'd mask up if using it again.


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## smokey the cat (Nov 27, 2014)

foreverflyhi said:


> Currently running a vermiuclite/perlite mix and a pumice/ricehulls/lava rock mix. Believe it or the vermiculite mix seems more richer and aerated.


I own vermiculite and the bag is unopened cause I have no idea how to use this stuff.
It has become an unfashionable thing to use on these boards, but the info below and your experience makes me think about reconsidering using some...


------
http://www.vermiculite.org/pdf_word/Vermiculite_Horticultural_Brochure.pdf
_Vermiculite possesses cation exchange properties, thus it can hold available to the growing plant ammonium, potassium, calcium and magnesium. 

Vermiculite, when combined with peat or composted pine bark compost, promotes faster root growth and gives quick anchorage to young roots. The mixture helps retain air, plant food and moisture, releasing them as the plant requires them.

Vermiculite eliminates the problem of packed-down soil in flower pots. Mix half and half with soil, peat and/or composted pine bark. It provides excellent air and moisture control for house plants. 

Lightens and aerates soil. Roots can spread out through the pot. Less frequent watering is required.
_


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## bicit (Nov 27, 2014)

More questions for the knowledgeable folks here.

1: What botanical's would be a good match for growing in an aquaponic environment? 

2: Those of you who raise your own aloe, what sort of soil mix and amendments do you recommend?


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## Chronikool (Nov 27, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I wasn't doubting you, more so myself actually. But I'm going g to take your advice. Everyone else agrees more or sell (=


So about 10 days to go on this C99...


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## DonPetro (Nov 27, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> So about 10 days to go on this C99...
> 
> View attachment 3302128 View attachment 3302129


Looking stellar, Chron! I bet it smells downright lovely in there!


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## Chronikool (Nov 27, 2014)

Yeah mate....these genetix get me all excited...gotta catch 'em all...


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## DonPetro (Nov 27, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Yeah mate....these genetix get me all excited...gotta catch 'em all...


And thats under DIY LED correct?


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## Chronikool (Nov 27, 2014)

yeah mate...not your usual design...one big flat plate/heatsink...140cm x 30mm x 6mm and LEDs stuck to it..i think my current grow is in my signature...(havent checked lately)

Being using this LED since July


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## Bueno Time (Nov 27, 2014)

I have a question for the No Till guys.

I have a tiny flowering tent 2x3 ft footprint and I have two batches of ~20 gallons soil mix each. I am at about 4 weeks left in this flower cycle in 6x 3 gallon bags and 3x 1 gallon bags and I have a batch now that has been cooking for somewhere around 6 weeks now so far and I was going to just break down root balls and re-amend soil and wet with lacto b serum, ACT or both and let sit to cook until next round and alternating rounds with the two batches of soil mix.

But the deeper I get into organic and natural gardening, the more I want to try a no till bed. I think it is the next logical step for me.

I think I might combine the freshly cooked mix with the batch from current run into a single bed that I would custom build for my tent. 2' deep x 3' wide to fit the entire footprint of the tent and my soil quantity of ~40 gallons would give me a depth of 10-11" to start and room to add plenty of ewc, amendments, mulch, etc all the goodies which over time should increase the depth of the bed to an extent. I would make the bed myself to fit the max dimensions of my tent with landscaping fabric and possibly even a wood or pvc framing system.

Do you guys think this seems like a reasonable idea to make a bed for my tent and just top dress and cut in little holes for my plants on the next run and just plug and chug? Or do you think roughly 40 gallons of soil is a bit overkill for a 2x3 tent that is only 5 ft tall (lol). I think its just enough but want to make sure Im not getting too crazy here.


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## DonPetro (Nov 27, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> yeah mate...not your usual design...one big flat plate/heatsink...140cm x 30mm x 6mm and LEDs stuck to it..i think my current grow is in my signature...(havent checked lately)
> 
> Being using this LED since July


Nice! Passive or active cooling? Im just getting into the DIY game myself. Im hoping to have a fixture built soon. How many watts per sq.ft are you running?


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## Chronikool (Nov 27, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Nice! Passive or active cooling? Im just getting into the DIY game myself. Im hoping to have a fixture built soon. How many watts per sq.ft are you running?


Active for sure....it has 5 x 140mm fans running down it...

New journal pretty much starts here.............>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-chronikool-of-the-crytochrome-and-the-all-conquering-cree.794758/page-6#post-10664202

So it is about 417w's all up in a.....80cm (high) x 160cm (long) x 80cm tent (width) ......i let the plants tell me if it is not enough light...so far its all good...


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## SouthernSoil* (Nov 28, 2014)

Nice buds Chronikool ! looking dope!

I have a problem though, i have some type of tiny flies flying around my grow when i water the soil, i think i might be keeping it too wet though, what type of mulch is good to keep these away while protecting the soil from drying out cause its quite obviously the reason its drying.. no mulch, i have watered now with a lacto b. serum 25 ml to 500ml water hopefully that while help for now but i guess there are plenty of different organic ways to get them on their way out of my grow, any help will be lovely! Peace & Much Respect


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 28, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Nice buds Chronikool ! looking dope!
> 
> I have a problem though, i have some type of tiny flies flying around my grow when i water the soil, i think i might be keeping it too wet though, what type of mulch is good to keep these away while protecting the soil from drying out cause its quite obviously the reason its drying.. no mulch, i have watered now with a lacto b. serum 25 ml to 500ml water hopefully that while help for now but i guess there are plenty of different organic ways to get them on their way out of my grow, any help will be lovely! Peace & Much Respect


Fungus Gnats?

If so, BTI bits will take care of them. They are a beneficial bacteria that will eat the gnat larvae. You can set out a couple sticky traps to catch the adults that are flying around. They are more of a nuisance than anything, but the larvae can damage your roots.

http://www.arbico-organics.com/product/2382/pest-solver-guide-mosquitoes?kpid=1211108&gclid=COLGyamJnsICFaI7MgodPmAAlw

.


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 28, 2014)

Bueno Time said:


> I have a question for the No Till guys.
> 
> I have a tiny flowering tent 2x3 ft footprint and I have two batches of ~20 gallons soil mix each. I am at about 4 weeks left in this flower cycle in 6x 3 gallon bags and 3x 1 gallon bags and I have a batch now that has been cooking for somewhere around 6 weeks now so far and I was going to just break down root balls and re-amend soil and wet with lacto b serum, ACT or both and let sit to cook until next round and alternating rounds with the two batches of soil mix.
> 
> ...


It's been a hot minute since I've been on here... Nice to see new traffic...

Yes... Definitely build a raised bed... 20-50% yield increase... More root space=More bud


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## a senile fungus (Nov 28, 2014)

Yeah once I get a more permanent space I want to put in a soil trough and go no till.

I'm sure the plants would like more cf for their roots!


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## Shwagbag (Nov 28, 2014)

Flies could be fungus gnats or root aphids. Top dressing with an inch or two of vermicompost always worked well for me to combat gnats, with sticky yellow traps. It should get crusty between waterings. Root aphids are the devil. Look closely in the soil to determine the pest.

Best of luck SB.


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## hyroot (Nov 29, 2014)

I saw this on another thread. Basically Monsanto shady schemes in the mj industry.

http://bigbudsmag.com/marijuana-cannabis-maximum-yield-monsanto-sunlight-supply/


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## st0wandgrow (Nov 29, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I saw this on another thread. Basically Monsanto shady schemes in the mj industry.
> 
> http://bigbudsmag.com/marijuana-cannabis-maximum-yield-monsanto-sunlight-supply/



Fucking bastards! This is the real problem:


"In the Obama administration and previous administrations, many officials in charge of food safety, crop safety, environmental protection, and agricultural policy are former Monsanto employees.

That’s why American government officials dismiss the real and potential harms of GMOs, which are created via a Frankenstein process that toys with the very building blocks of Nature.

And the revolving door in which Monsanto execs work for government and vice versa is why the U.S. government has long fronted for Monsanto in trade disputes and in commerce lobbying to ensure Monsanto gets maximum market penetration and profits for its products worldwide."


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## boblawblah421 (Nov 29, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> Flies could be fungus gnats or root aphids. Top dressing with an inch or two of vermicompost always worked well for me to combat gnats, with sticky yellow traps. It should get crusty between waterings. Root aphids are the devil. Look closely in the soil to determine the pest.
> 
> Best of luck SB.


Gotta add my 2 cents...

I used to think the same thing... Make sure to let media get dry between waterings to combat gnats...

The day I set up my first Blumats in my first ROLS raised bed was the day the fungus gnats went away. This was also the day I started getting real results.

Soil stays moist 24 hours a day, producing 70-80% humidity during the day, and 90-100% at night, and fuck tons of trichomes the size of yo momma's nipples.


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## PSUAGRO. (Nov 30, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Fucking bastards! This is the real problem:
> 
> 
> "In the Obama administration and previous administrations, many officials in charge of food safety, crop safety, environmental protection, and agricultural policy are former Monsanto employees.
> ...


Too late.................we've been asleep at the wheel, It's gonna be a hard turn-around IMO. Just look @ the heads of the USDA.

grow your own crops or move to europe...........


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 1, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Fungus Gnats?
> 
> If so, BTI bits will take care of them. They are a beneficial bacteria that will eat the gnat larvae. You can set out a couple sticky traps to catch the adults that are flying around. They are more of a nuisance than anything, but the larvae can damage your roots.
> 
> ...


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 1, 2014)

Shwagbag said:


> Flies could be fungus gnats or root aphids. Top dressing with an inch or two of vermicompost always worked well for me to combat gnats, with sticky yellow traps. It should get crusty between waterings. Root aphids are the devil. Look closely in the soil to determine the pest.
> 
> Best of luck SB.


Thank you for the reply man, i have been watering about once everyday before lights go out, i could try vermicompost not a problem, do you mean i should let my soil get crusty on top even without the ewc top dress ? I did see some yellow kind of bugs walking up and down the one stem though not many : / I dont really understand though, all my intakes are filtered & my windows both have mosquito netting, i should also get a better handheld microscope. Peace man


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 1, 2014)

Forgot to mention i went out this weekend for a shroomy trip & to my surprise i had a feeling my
power got shut down here so i rushed back, unfortunately my fan controller doesnt switch back on when the power comes back on so i had my grow sitting at about 93 F sweating for about two hours, i switched the main light off then and powered the 4 LED modules which just have 480 Lumens at 6000-7000k for the rest of the 14 hours of vegging, seems like the light really induced quite a bit of flowering with its blue effect, the diesel has preflowers everywhere but still waiting on the grapey and mango kush bagseed to show its assets.

Got to hate Monsanto though ! We all need to start making abundance of food & seeds ! We cant lose all the beautiful genetics on this planet due to some piece of shit company !


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## DonPetro (Dec 1, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Forgot to mention i went out this weekend for a shroomy trip & to my surprise i had a feeling my
> power got shut down here so i rushed back, unfortunately my fan controller doesnt switch back on when the power comes back on so i had my grow sitting at about 93 F sweating for about two hours, i switched the main light off then and powered the 4 LED modules which just have 480 Lumens at 6000-7000k for the rest of the 14 hours of vegging, seems like the light really induced quite a bit of flowering with its blue effect, the diesel has preflowers everywhere but still waiting on the grapey and mango kush bagseed to show its assets.
> 
> Got to hate Monsanto though ! We all need to start making abundance of food & seeds ! We cant lose all the beautiful genetics on this planet due to some piece of shit company !


Interesting that the blue would induce flowering. However im not sure i would bank on that being the cause. I have seen strains show pre-flowers in veg but i believe it has more to do with genetics.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 1, 2014)

I read somewhere on forums about people using blue lights to show preflowers but not sure i did it right, hopefully the plants dont hermie out on me as this is the 2nd time and might not be the last : /


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 1, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you for the reply man, i have been watering about once everyday before lights go out, i could try vermicompost not a problem, do you mean i should let my soil get crusty on top even without the ewc top dress ? I did see some yellow kind of bugs walking up and down the one stem though not many : / I dont really understand though, all my intakes are filtered & my windows both have mosquito netting, i should also get a better handheld microscope. Peace man


Hey Brother, you will always have fungus gnats around bro, those and spider mite are the South African gardeners two main enemies so tweak your pest management for those. The gnats come in the EWC and compost if you buy you get gnats, they are literally everywhere out here man. What you want is Margaret Roberts Organic Mosquito Insecticide, good old BTi. That, and some of those sticky fly traps (not the ones that kill the ones that just get them stuck, the former are bad news), the fly traps for the flyers the BTi for the larvae in the soil. We are coming into mite season so go ot and grab some Ludwigs Insect Spray Plus, it is made from garlic, canola oil and pyrethrum. Dude I have imported all the stuff guys talk about but nothing comes close to Ludwigs. Mix it according to instructions for tomatoes and bust it out when you see bugs. For maintenance get some Margaret Roberts Organic pesticide, just garlic and canola oil that, once a week to kill all eggs and small bugs, works a charm. And you are watering a little often perhaps yes. Make sure your mulch is at least 5cm thick, if you can stick your finger under and it feels moist don't water, if it feels a bit dry then yes water away. Mulch is essential to keep moisture even and develop a feel for watering IMO, and nasty dry pockets are the enemy... And your girls can handle that bit of heat, don't make sudden brash move like limit your light for 14 hours, in veg rather let them ride out one factor gone haywire than two. Besides, summer is hardly here bro lmfao... them girls are going to have to get used to a lot more, come Jan 15 TS gonna be a sauna in there even with lights off... TI fukin A muahahahaha


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 1, 2014)

And that fan speed controller sounds like a liability given the Eskom situation. Get rid of it bro.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 1, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Hey Brother, you will always have fungus gnats around bro, those and spider mite are the South African gardeners two main enemies so tweak your pest management for those. The gnats come in the EWC and compost if you buy you get gnats, they are literally everywhere out here man. What you want is Margaret Roberts Organic Mosquito Insecticide, good old BTi. That, and some of those sticky fly traps (not the ones that kill the ones that just get them stuck, the former are bad news), the fly traps for the flyers the BTi for the larvae in the soil. We are coming into mite season so go ot and grab some Ludwigs Insect Spray Plus, it is made from garlic, canola oil and pyrethrum. Dude I have imported all the stuff guys talk about but nothing comes close to Ludwigs. Mix it according to instructions for tomatoes and bust it out when you see bugs. For maintenance get some Margaret Roberts Organic pesticide, just garlic and canola oil that, once a week to kill all eggs and small bugs, works a charm. And you are watering a little often perhaps yes. Make sure your mulch is at least 5cm thick, if you can stick your finger under and it feels moist don't water, if it feels a bit dry then yes water away. Mulch is essential to keep moisture even and develop a feel for watering IMO, and nasty dry pockets are the enemy... And your girls can handle that bit of heat, don't make sudden brash move like limit your light for 14 hours, in veg rather let them ride out one factor gone haywire than two. Besides, summer is hardly here bro lmfao... them girls are going to have to get used to a lot more, come Jan 15 TS gonna be a sauna in there even with lights off... TI fukin A muahahahaha


Respect bro, thank you, really appreciate the advice.

I see where you coming from that they pretty much everywhere, I have seen Margaret Roberts & Ludwigs products in stores so ill definitely go grab the products you mentioned,it should be okay if i had to inhale any of these though bro?

I wanted to mention i diluted some lacto b with water and sprayed it on the soil & plants this morning, i didnt see flies around like i did on yesterday though, seems to have helped for now unless they chilling on the soil though, could i ask bro what do you use for *mulch* though ? I felt stupid for leaving the backup lights on for 14 hours, there was one benefit i now know that i have 3 females, just waiting on the Mango Kush though, possibly a female i really hope, i thought id leave them in the heat bro but the tent was sitting at 34 C , i was scared something would short circuit with all that moisture build up. Lol summer is going to be insane though.. hope ill manage with the 600w lol but i rate i should start flowering in a week bro & definitely getting rid of the fan controller but not sure what to get. Attached a picture quickly aswell, Peace bro thank you very much once again


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## earthling420 (Dec 1, 2014)

Fuckin Monsanto. fucking ridiculous and stupid ass Americans are too stupid to even notice. 

On another note, anyone used gypsum in their mix? how much should be used?


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 1, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Respect bro, thank you, really appreciate the advice.
> 
> I see where you coming from that they pretty much everywhere, I have seen Margaret Roberts & Ludwigs products in stores so ill definitely go grab the products you mentioned,it should be okay if i had to inhale any of these though bro?
> 
> I wanted to mention i diluted some lacto b with water and sprayed it on the soil & plants this morning, i didnt see flies around like i did on yesterday though, seems to have helped for now unless they chilling on the soil though, could i ask bro what do you use for *mulch* though ? I felt stupid for leaving the backup lights on for 14 hours, there was one benefit i now know that i have 3 females, just waiting on the Mango Kush though, possibly a female i really hope, i thought id leave them in the heat bro but the tent was sitting at 34 C , i was scared something would short circuit with all that moisture build up. Lol summer is going to be insane though.. hope ill manage with the 600w lol but i rate i should start flowering in a week bro & definitely getting rid of the fan controller but not sure what to get. Attached a picture quickly aswell, Peace bro thank you very much once again


We get some lekka mulches brother. Go see if your nursery has rooibos mulch, it needs a tiny soak before you use it as it comes bone dry and that doesn't help much. My favorite mulch is my male plants lmfao... but seriously can a leaves make an epic mulch that gets eaten by the soil slowly but surely. Some compost will work fine too, this is where I enjoy the rougher grades. If you can get some leaf mould that is tits. I have used washed coco when I had nothing else, works a treat if it is the roug grade, total disaster if you use the pyth blocks. 34 is pretty damn hot yes but like i said unless you get climate control your girls are looking at touching the mid fourties before flower is out. This next bit is gonna take balls of steel my friendbut once your rig is tweaked it is tweaked. Also a good idea getting your AC installed before you have thirty ladies to hide when the tech comes... No hassles on the sprays, a respirator is always a good idea though. Stuff will make your tent smell like an Italian restaurant for a day lmfao, but that truly is the worst part.


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## smokey the cat (Dec 2, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> Fuckin Monsanto. fucking ridiculous and stupid ass Americans are too stupid to even notice.
> 
> On another note, anyone used gypsum in their mix? how much should be used?


"half-cup per cubic foot" - ClackamasCoot


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 2, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> We get some lekka mulches brother. Go see if your nursery has rooibos mulch, it needs a tiny soak before you use it as it comes bone dry and that doesn't help much. My favorite mulch is my male plants lmfao... but seriously can a leaves make an epic mulch that gets eaten by the soil slowly but surely. Some compost will work fine too, this is where I enjoy the rougher grades. If you can get some leaf mould that is tits. I have used washed coco when I had nothing else, works a treat if it is the roug grade, total disaster if you use the pyth blocks. 34 is pretty damn hot yes but like i said unless you get climate control your girls are looking at touching the mid fourties before flower is out. This next bit is gonna take balls of steel my friendbut once your rig is tweaked it is tweaked. Also a good idea getting your AC installed before you have thirty ladies to hide when the tech comes... No hassles on the sprays, a respirator is always a good idea though. Stuff will make your tent smell like an Italian restaurant for a day lmfao, but that truly is the worst part.


Ill check around for some rooibos mulch brother, i definitely have seen coco in the rough type which is basically loose you mean right ? Compost on the other hand, im not sure what type is rough dont really have alot of choice here but i did get some 1/4" mesh to sift the compost.

Lol if it reaches the mid forties then shit is going to melt ! i dont think it should go above 35-40 but you right though i will need some sort of climate control cause this room gets hot aswell, only problem is an AC is going to cost alot, unless there are any types of portable ac's that actually work okay & dont cost too much ? 

Haha im good with it smelling like a Italian restaurant, as long as the plants are happy : ) Peace bro, thank you once again for the detailed help !


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 2, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Ill check around for some rooibos mulch brother, i definitely have seen coco in the rough type which is basically loose you mean right ? Compost on the other hand, im not sure what type is rough dont really have alot of choice here but i did get some 1/4" mesh to sift the compost.
> 
> Lol if it reaches the mid forties then shit is going to melt ! i dont think it should go above 35-40 but you right though i will need some sort of climate control cause this room gets hot aswell, only problem is an AC is going to cost alot, unless there are any types of portable ac's that actually work okay & dont cost too much ?
> 
> Haha im good with it smelling like a Italian restaurant, as long as the plants are happy : ) Peace bro, thank you once again for the detailed help !



Some good suggestions by MH.

Are you going to run no-till buckets SS? If so a simple cover crop would be beneficial, and can double as a mulch. I leave my buckets fallow for 3 weeks in between rounds. As soon as I chop I top dress some dry amendments, lay down a 50/50 mix of soil and worm castings and then sprinkle a couple tea spoons of cover crop seeds down. Clover, wheat grass, vetch, barley, flax seed, etc will all work just fine. This keeps the soil microbiology (mycorrhizae) active and once you plug your marihuana clone in there it will shade out the cover crop and you can then chop it down and just leave it on top of the soil as a mulch which will eventually degrade in to a humus-like substance.

I love using things that serve multiple purposes!


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 2, 2014)

No till kicks so much ass. Not looking back, was a good move.


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## ekim046 (Dec 2, 2014)

Has anybody mentioned mushroom inoculants or mushroom compost? Those guys pack a whollop too!


personal grow:


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## hyroot (Dec 2, 2014)

mushroom.compost is great. Especially if you compost it yourself. Store bought mushroom compost is very hard to find. I would grow mushrooms to compost if I had the room.


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 2, 2014)

ekim046 said:


> Has anybody mentioned mushroom inoculants or mushroom compost? Those guys pack a whollop too!
> 
> 
> personal grow:


How do you like the Scotts og? I'm on my second run now.


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## ekim046 (Dec 2, 2014)

It is actually my first time growing her. I wasn't even planning on growing anything til I found a perfect little brown seed 
As far as the smoke, there isn't much more you could ask for. The flavor is citrus-y and has a heavy effect while still maintaining the euphoria. What did you think?


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## ekim046 (Dec 2, 2014)

hyroot said:


> mushroom.compost is great. Especially if you compost it yourself. Store bought mushroom compost is very hard to find. I would grow mushrooms to compost if I had the room.


Paul Stamets, one of the world's renowned mycologist, owns the company www.fungi.com
Their prices are really really cheap and is quite worth the process.
I've bought shiitake spawn as well as king oyster spawn and had them fruit in bags.
The remaining mushroom compost is so fortified with nutrients, it would be a shame to throw it away!

Also, you can grow mushrooms/compost in very little space if you know how!


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## Mohican (Dec 2, 2014)

It is one of my favorites - very easy and fast 








Cheers,
Mo


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 2, 2014)

ekim046 said:


> Paul Stamets, one of the world's renowned mycologist, owns the company www.fungi.com
> Their prices are really really cheap and is quite worth the process.
> I've bought shiitake spawn as well as king oyster spawn and had them fruit in bags.
> The remaining mushroom compost is so fortified with nutrients, it would be a shame to throw it away!
> ...


Would love to learn more about growing edible shrooms. Seems like the perfect compliment to growing weed.


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## ekim046 (Dec 2, 2014)

It really is! and delicious and nutritions  Check Amazon, his books are awfully cheap and its a one stop shop if you want to learn about shroomery.


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 2, 2014)

ekim046 said:


> It is actually my first time growing her. I wasn't even planning on growing anything til I found a perfect little brown seed
> As far as the smoke, there isn't much more you could ask for. The flavor is citrus-y and has a heavy effect while still maintaining the euphoria. What did you think?


Absolutely loved it. It grows like a weed  and it has the perfect medicinal effects I need. Plus the taste is pretty good. I think I prefer the 501st og more for flavor though. Rare Dankness in general just has some good genetics. I hear ox is superb


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## bazookajoe (Dec 3, 2014)

hyroot said:


> mushroom.compost is great. Especially if you compost it yourself. Store bought mushroom compost is very hard to find. I would grow mushrooms to compost if I had the room.


 At what rate would mushroom compost be applied? 50/50 ewc/mc as the 33% vc? Local landscape supply co has 40lb bags for $3.75


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 3, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Some good suggestions by MH.
> 
> Are you going to run no-till buckets SS? If so a simple cover crop would be beneficial, and can double as a mulch. I leave my buckets fallow for 3 weeks in between rounds. As soon as I chop I top dress some dry amendments, lay down a 50/50 mix of soil and worm castings and then sprinkle a couple tea spoons of cover crop seeds down. Clover, wheat grass, vetch, barley, flax seed, etc will all work just fine. This keeps the soil microbiology (mycorrhizae) active and once you plug your marihuana clone in there it will shade out the cover crop and you can then chop it down and just leave it on top of the soil as a mulch which will eventually degrade in to a humus-like substance.
> 
> ...


Hey there st0w ! I already plugged in all my plants into the no till pots that i posted in the pic in the previous page, i let those pots sit for a month and a half. At the moment everything is looking good, plants seem to be loving the soil, i would of loved to have done the cover crops and all but as this is my first grow including the stealth part it has been a huge bitch of a mission to get up and running, im all set on my compost tea's ingredients &im going to buy those organic pesticides that MH suggested & keep it simple for this one, next grow ill take it to a next level ! : ) just need to make a mission for some mulch cause i need it for my veggie garden & indoor pots, peace bro ! thank you for the help


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 3, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Would love to learn more about growing edible shrooms. Seems like the perfect compliment to growing weed.


Talk to Javadog. He has oysters fruiting right in the pots along with his veggies and herb. Oyster mushrooms produce Co2 like nobody's business. Genuity is using the box kits to up CO2 at the mo and getting beautiful fruits for his kitchen too. Javadog is the most passionate mycologist and mold expert I have met online so far, and very generous with the info. Might even link you up some spawn I know he makes his own.


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## ekim046 (Dec 3, 2014)

bazookajoe said:


> At what rate would mushroom compost be applied? 50/50 ewc/mc as the 33% vc? Local landscape supply co has 40lb bags for $3.75


Unfortunately, I'm not sure what rate you should use for your garden. Our garden is micro but bio dynamically focused so our rates of application are dffer from yours. Frankly, I kinda eyeball it! But wow thhat price is so cheap!


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 3, 2014)

bazookajoe said:


> At what rate would mushroom compost be applied? 50/50 ewc/mc as the 33% vc? Local landscape supply co has 40lb bags for $3.75



That is a great price! I think a 50/50 mix with that and ewc would be just fine


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## bazookajoe (Dec 3, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> That is a great price! I think a 50/50 mix with that and ewc would be just fine


Thanks for the feedback man! Glad to hear its priced well too. There's bulk options as well, $30/$50 half/whole yard but I'm not gonna be needing that much lol


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 3, 2014)

bazookajoe said:


> Thanks for the feedback man! Glad to hear its priced well too. There's bulk options as well, $30/$50 half/whole yard but I'm not gonna be needing that much lol


Careful, depends on supplier and ratio used....

http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gardening/mushroom-compost-use-carefully


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 3, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Careful, depends on supplier and ratio used....
> 
> http://extension.oregonstate.edu/gardening/mushroom-compost-use-carefully


From the article:

" For containerized plants, fresh mushroom compost should only make up about one-quarter of the volume of soil in the container."

So, according to that, if you use the mushroom compost as 1/2 of your compost portion of your base, then it would account for 1/6'th of the soil volume...... within range of this recomendation.


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## bazookajoe (Dec 3, 2014)

@stowandgrow- that's exactly what I was thinking,and we nailed it before we read the article
@psuagro- thanks for that link man, confirmed our hypothesis.


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## Bueno Time (Dec 3, 2014)

Just ordered a bag of 6 Bocking 14 live root cuttings. Pretty stoked and glad my climate allows immediate planting upon arrival so I wont have to put them in pots indoors. Should be excellent worm food and for top dressing/mulching, pretty excited to take my organic gardening up another notch.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 3, 2014)

Bueno Time said:


> Just ordered a bag of 6 Bocking 14 live root cuttings. Pretty stoked and glad my climate allows immediate planting upon arrival so I wont have to put them in pots indoors. Should be excellent worm food and for top dressing/mulching, pretty excited to take my organic gardening up another notch.


Great score!

Where did you order them fro Bueno?


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## Bueno Time (Dec 4, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Great score!
> 
> Where did you order them fro Bueno?


Horizon Herbs

I paid $26.90 shipped for 6 pack they have the 6 packs of Bocking 14 for $12 plus shipping, singles of Bocking 14 for $3 each plus $14 shipping (yikes) so its best to get a 6 pack I think since shipping cost is the same for 1 or 6 cuttings. 

They also have True Comfrey for $5 per cutting but that is not sterile and will create viable seeds if left uncut long enough and spread like a crazy and you will never get rid of it once its established if you tear the plant out then each root piece can start a new plant or roto-till the ground to chew the roots up each 1" chunk can and will start a new plant. 

Sounds scary to me so I went with the Bocking 14 since its sterile and supposed to actually yield a little higher and be more vigorous but the true comfrey is still best for medicinal uses. 

Actually once a Bocking 14 plant establishes a root system you wont get rid of it either but at least it wont spread from where you plant it unless you till the roots up.


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## Mohican (Dec 4, 2014)

Comfrey sounds like a good candidate for a container plant. I have a taro I can't get rid of for the same reason.


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## Chronikool (Dec 4, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Comfrey sounds like a good candidate for a container plant. I have a taro I can't get rid of for the same reason.


'accumulation' type plantz such as Comfrey and dandelionz good pointz is that their deep root systemz can pull nutrientz from poor soil...maybe not the best candidate for a container plant mo...will still work but kind of defeatz the purpose because no doubt you will be feeding it up..


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## a senile fungus (Dec 4, 2014)

I wanted to plant some of these in planters around my parents property but I realized a dynamic accumulator might not be much good in a container. It seems to me that they would only have access to what I gave them in the soil, as opposed to being able to dynamically accumulate straight from the ground...


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## CannaBare (Dec 4, 2014)

It seems to me comfrey is the best all around composting and mulching plant. I tried topdressing with dandelions once and it robbed my soil of all the nitrogen. Anyone notice that? But I love the leaves in salads, so they have a use


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 4, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> I wanted to plant some of these in planters around my parents property but I realized a dynamic accumulator might not be much good in a container. It seems to me that they would only have access to what I gave them in the soil, as opposed to being able to dynamically accumulate straight from the ground...


Yeppers. Those roots will mine down deep in the soil and pull up all sorts of minerals and micro nutrients. Maybe not a complete waste of time in a pot, but ideally you want them in the ground


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## IgnatiusWakefield (Dec 4, 2014)

So I see a soil mix every few pages and I for the life of me can't figure out how I am supposed to measure anything. Can anyone provide any assistance?


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 4, 2014)

IgnatiusWakefield said:


> So I see a soil mix every few pages and I for the life of me can't figure out how I am supposed to measure anything. Can anyone provide any assistance?


25%-33% each of peat/coco, aeration bits, and compost. To that, you will add a couple cups per cubic foot of base your meals (kelp, neem seed, alfalfa, crabshell, etc.) IE 1/2 a cup per cf of each of those. Then your mineral package will be added at 3-4 cups per cubic foot. Rock dusts, greensand, oyster shell flour, gypsum, dolo lime, etc. Personally I'd go with 3 cups per cf of Rock dusts, and a 1/2 cup per cf of a liming agent (oyster shell flour, dolo lime, calcium carbonate) and then round it off with maybe a little gypsum and green sand.


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## smokey the cat (Dec 4, 2014)




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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 4, 2014)

I would like to note that alfalfa meal tends to be very hot compared to other amendments. I use it at about half or at 3/4 the rate that I use my other amendments. Sativas seem to be really sensitive to it in my experience, but they're sensitive to everything but heights. 


st0wandgrow said:


> 25%-33% each of peat/coco, aeration bits, and compost. To that, you will add a couple cups per cubic foot of base your meals (kelp, neem seed, alfalfa, crabshell, etc.) IE 1/2 a cup per cf of each of those. Then your mineral package will be added at 3-4 cups per cubic foot. Rock dusts, greensand, oyster shell flour, gypsum, dolo lime, etc. Personally I'd go with 3 cups per cf of Rock dusts, and a 1/2 cup per cf of a liming agent (oyster shell flour, dolo lime, calcium carbonate) and then round it off with maybe a little gypsum and green sand.


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## Chronikool (Dec 4, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> It seems to me comfrey is the best all around composting and mulching plant. I tried topdressing with dandelions once and it robbed my soil of all the nitrogen. Anyone notice that? But I love the leaves in salads, so they have a use


My current brew of Comfrey and Dandelions...it keepz getting added too....just starting to get that finger lickin' good skin on top and pleasant pong...


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## CannaBare (Dec 4, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> My current brew of Comfrey and Dandelions...it keepz getting added too....just starting to get that finger lickin' good skin on top and pleasant pong...
> 
> View attachment 3307093


Yikes I need to try that!


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## smokey the cat (Dec 5, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> My current brew of Comfrey and Dandelions...it keepz getting added too....just starting to get that finger lickin' good skin on top and pleasant pong...
> 
> View attachment 3307093


What's your recipe here?

I have comfrey just large enough to start donating some leaves and am keen to get some of the silica into my garden.


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## Chronikool (Dec 5, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> What's your recipe here?
> 
> I have comfrey just large enough to start donating some leaves and am keen to get some of the silica into my garden.


Pick comfrey leaves, pick dandelions....put into bucket...add water...leave to brew.....it will start breaking down...and turn black...stir occasionally if you want....keep adding to it if you wish....


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 5, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Pick comfrey leaves, pick dandelions....put into bucket...add water...leave to brew.....it will start breaking down...and turn black...stir occasionally if you want....keep adding to it if you wish....


How does the end product have to smell if i may ask ? Peace : )


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 5, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> How does the end product have to smell if i may ask ? Peace : )


Like mothers nature's sweet vagina


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 5, 2014)

Hey guys, bit of an odd question. I didn't have time to let my clover grow up for mulch before I planted my ladies and have been using dead houseplant leaves and leftover plant scrapes from trimming as such. So I decided to use the leaves from my two poinsettias last night after I cleaned them up and transplanted them.
But I was thinking this morning that since they're toxic to ingest, would that present the risk of the plant up taking some of the toxins? I definitely don't want to throw away my batch of notill super soil but I don't want to poison myself even more.


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## IgnatiusWakefield (Dec 5, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> 25%-33% each of peat/coco, aeration bits, and compost. To that, you will add a couple cups per cubic foot of base your meals (kelp, neem seed, alfalfa, crabshell, etc.) IE 1/2 a cup per cf of each of those. Then your mineral package will be added at 3-4 cups per cubic foot. Rock dusts, greensand, oyster shell flour, gypsum, dolo lime, etc. Personally I'd go with 3 cups per cf of Rock dusts, and a 1/2 cup per cf of a liming agent (oyster shell flour, dolo lime, calcium carbonate) and then round it off with maybe a little gypsum and green sand.



So I need enough soil for 6 15gal smart pots (90gals/14cu ft right?) I would proportion my base to equal the gallons I need, then add the amendments?


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 5, 2014)

IgnatiusWakefield said:


> So I need enough soil for 6 15gal smart pots (90gals/14cu ft right?) I would proportion my base to equal the gallons I need, then add the amendments?


There's roughly 7.5 gallons in a cubic foot, so 90 gallons would be about 12 cubic feet. That will consist of 1 part peat moss (or coco coir), 1 part aeration, 1 part compost. Add your meals and minerals to that


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## goodjoint (Dec 6, 2014)

Great info in this thread. Thanks all!

What do you guys think about this: http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/nutrient-pack

I'm thinking about trying their recipe and nutrient mix.... Seems simple enough...

It contains KIS Organics Microbe Catalyst, Organic Alfalfa Meal, Organic Fish Bone Meal, Organic Crustacean Meal, Organic Kelp Meal, Organic Fish Meal, Glacial Rock Dust, Soft Rock Phosphate, Oyster Shell Flour, Ahimsa Organics Neem Cake and Karanja Cake, Gypsum, Natural Calcite, Mycorrhiza, and Beneficial Microbes.

Then add it to...
15 gallons spaghnum peat moss, 10 gallons perlite, 5 gallons high quality compost or earthworm castings.


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## smokey the cat (Dec 6, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Hey guys, bit of an odd question. I didn't have time to let my clover grow up for mulch before I planted my ladies and have been using dead houseplant leaves and leftover plant scrapes from trimming as such. So I decided to use the leaves from my two poinsettias last night after I cleaned them up and transplanted them.
> But I was thinking this morning that since they're toxic to ingest, would that present the risk of the plant up taking some of the toxins? I definitely don't want to throw away my batch of notill super soil but I don't want to poison myself even more.



I reckon you'll be sweet: sounds like a mild irritant, not a poison that's gonna destroy your ecosystem. http://www.happysimpleliving.com/2008/02/04/can-you-compost-a-poinsettia/
_You will be happy to hear that poinsettias are not poisonous, so yours can be safely added to the compost heap. Some people are sensitive to the milky sap that comes from the poinsettia’s branches; it can occasionally cause an itchy rash. Wear your gardening gloves when you add the plant to the compost, and be careful not to rub your eyes after touching the plants._


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 6, 2014)

Thank you! I was really contemplating picking every little piece out of my planters lol. 


smokey the cat said:


> I reckon you'll be sweet: sounds like a mild irritant, not a poison that's gonna destroy your ecosystem. http://www.happysimpleliving.com/2008/02/04/can-you-compost-a-poinsettia/
> _You will be happy to hear that poinsettias are not poisonous, so yours can be safely added to the compost heap. Some people are sensitive to the milky sap that comes from the poinsettia’s branches; it can occasionally cause an itchy rash. Wear your gardening gloves when you add the plant to the compost, and be careful not to rub your eyes after touching the plants._


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 6, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> Great info in this thread. Thanks all!
> 
> What do you guys think about this: http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/nutrient-pack
> 
> ...


That looks like a really solid mix IMO. Only thing I'd suggest is to beef up the compost portion a bit


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## goodjoint (Dec 6, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> That looks like a really solid mix IMO. Only thing I'd suggest is to beef up the compost portion a bit


Thank you. I was thinking of 10 gallons of compost rather than 5?

I'm not sure if I should use Alaska Humus, Fungal Compost, worm castings, or a balanced mix of them all...

- http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/alaska-humus
- http://www.kisorganics.com/products/shop/keep-it-simple-fungal-compost


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 6, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> Thank you. I was thinking of 10 gallons of compost rather than 5?
> 
> I'm not sure if I should use Alaska Humus, Fungal Compost, worm castings, or a balanced mix of them all...
> 
> ...


Yes, 10 would be ideal.

As for what to use, I'd say fresh is best. If you can find something local that would be great as opposed to something that is bagged and sitting on a shelf or in a warehouse. Check out Craigslist and you might find something that will work....


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## goodjoint (Dec 6, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yes, 10 would be ideal.
> 
> As for what to use, I'd say fresh is best. If you can find something local that would be great as opposed to something that is bagged and sitting on a shelf or in a warehouse. Check out Craigslist and you might find something that will work....


KIS Organics state on their website: "Our composts are not pre-packaged so we can provide the freshest compost possible." I can pick up from them locally.

Checking craigslist I found some free "organic compost from 99% horse manure" with "no acidic shavings"

Thanks for the help!


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## STR8PUFF'N4DAYS (0_o) (Dec 7, 2014)

headtreep said:


> This was my very first crop using all these new products:


HOLY DAMN!!!!!!


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## smokey the cat (Dec 8, 2014)

Chronikool said:


> Pick comfrey leaves, pick dandelions....put into bucket...add water...leave to brew.....it will start breaking down...and turn black...stir occasionally if you want....keep adding to it if you wish....


 I now have a bucket of roughly chopped comfrey-dandelion getting funky.

Planning on diluting this gunk to the colour of light amber tea before applying to soil - sound about right?


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## goodjoint (Dec 8, 2014)

I decided to go with the ClakamasCoots recipe: http://buildasoil.com/products/the-clackamas-kit
With this as my base, should anything else be added that's missing?

When "cooking" the soil, should it be within a certain temperature range? Is 32-50 degrees too cold? Do low temps just make the cooking process slower? Should all of the soil mix be laid out on a tarp, or can i put it in large rubbermaid containers with the lids off and keep it inside my house where it's warmer? 60-70 degrees... (these containers are 30 gallon size, measuring 20 inches wide, 32 inches long, and 17 inches high)


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 8, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> I decided to go with the ClakamasCoots recipe: http://buildasoil.com/products/the-clackamas-kit
> With this as my base, should anything else be added that's missing?
> 
> When "cooking" the soil, should it be within a certain temperature range? Is 32-50 degrees too cold? Do low temps just make the cooking process slower? Should all of the soil mix be laid out on a tarp, or can i put it in large rubbermaid containers with the lids off and keep it inside my house where it's warmer? 60-70 degrees... (these containers are 30 gallon size, measuring 20 inches wide, 32 inches long, and 17 inches high)


 Containers are fine but you have to pour it all out and turn it well every ten days I learned. Temp wize a little warmer is better but your soil will still 'cook' unless it freezes over. Even in low temps with coots mix you don't need much cook time


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## stak (Dec 8, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Containers are fine but you have to pour it all out and turn it well every ten days I learned. Temp wize a little warmer is better but your soil will still 'cook' unless it freezes over. Even in low temps with coots mix you don't need much cook time



Why would you need to pour it out and turn it well every ten days?


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## CannaBare (Dec 8, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> I decided to go with the ClakamasCoots recipe: http://buildasoil.com/products/the-clackamas-kit
> With this as my base, should anything else be added that's missing?
> 
> When "cooking" the soil, should it be within a certain temperature range? Is 32-50 degrees too cold? Do low temps just make the cooking process slower? Should all of the soil mix be laid out on a tarp, or can i put it in large rubbermaid containers with the lids off and keep it inside my house where it's warmer? 60-70 degrees... (these containers are 30 gallon size, measuring 20 inches wide, 32 inches long, and 17 inches high)


Using all of those amendments I have never let my soil cook. Buy some dutch clover and innoculant. Plant two days ahead of your cannabis plant and you are good


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## Chronikool (Dec 8, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> I now have a bucket of roughly chopped comfrey-dandelion getting funky.
> 
> Planning on diluting this gunk to the colour of light amber tea before applying to soil - sound about right?


BLACK!


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## goodjoint (Dec 8, 2014)

This is my plan, how does it look? Am I missing anything or adding too much or too little of anything? 
If I can't find local worm castings, should I just replace them with more horse manure compost?

- 3 cubic feet of Perlite
- 3 cubic feet of Sphagnum Peat Moss
- 2 cubic feet of compost from local chemical-free horse manure (aged 6 months)
- 1 cubic foot of worm castings (can't find local, may need to order online. I just started my own worm farm though.)
- 1 cubic foot of backyard forest soil (underneath/near an old growth cedar tree)

1 "Large Box" of ClackamasCoots Style Nutrient Kit: http://buildasoil.com/products/the-clackamas-kit

Mix and water with an AACT.
Let "cook" for 2-3 weeks.

I have some current plants in 1 gallon pots that I may transplant them into this new soil without "cooking" - bad idea?
Thanks all!


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 8, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> This is my plan, how does it look? Am I missing anything or adding too much or too little of anything?
> If I can't find local worm castings, should I just replace them with more horse manure compost?
> 
> - 3 cubic feet of Perlite
> ...


If you're using build a soil, then just grab their castings


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## Bueno Time (Dec 8, 2014)

Im using the clackamas style recipe from BAS and I let my soil mix "cook" for at least a month but thats how long it sits until I need it, not saying its necessary to cook that long. I wet the mix with lacto b serum and a little molasses and then usually any leftover ACT I happen to make during the cooking process. 

I agree with grabbing castings from BAS if you cant find local, worm power ewc is some of the best you can buy commercially and thats what BAS sells and I have in my current mix until I can harvest my own from bins I started about 5-6 weeks ago (so some time yet).

Good choice on soil mix recipe.


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## Mohican (Dec 8, 2014)

The clover in the LA Con pot is poking through! I had some growing out through the side of the Smart pot!




Cheers,
Mo


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 9, 2014)

I've got to say that rols notill has won my heart already. I used to use plain old bagged Fox farm soil and nutes. Now I cringe at the idea of synthetic anything.

I've never truly mixed my own super soil or anything like that before my current grow, so this is my first experience with super soils, rols, and notill. I will never go back now that I've seen the light! Lol
I have a little (Not very controlled, lots of variables) experiment going on between 6 Scotts og ladies. They're currently on day ~8 - 11 of flower. They've been under 12 / 12 from seed and germinated on ~Nov 1st. The two planters on the right are in the 3gallon air planters with my super soil mix. The lady in the top left is in a ~3 gallon bucket with 100+ 8th in holes with the remaining root structure of a northernlights lady grown in FF soil that was fed no synthetic ferts, amended at 50:50 with my super soil mix. And the last lady is in a bagged soil mix (Fox Farm OF & HF) with some espoma plant tone, azomite, and some kelp meal, possibly some fulfic acid, I can't remember now. As I expected the best results so far are from the super soil mix I made.
 
After I chop these ladies, I'll be upgrading to 15 gallon planters and adding a few more amendments to the mix.
Awesome genetics from RareDankness makes growing a breeze!


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 9, 2014)

Hey there guys, i went into a feed store today to get a bale of hay to mulch the no till outdoor vegetable garden, i had two options the straw hay & then the grass type of hay, so i thought the grass hay would be better cause it looked like its more sowed in than the straw hay and wouldnt blow away as easy, which would you guys recommend and would it be cool mulching my ladies with it ? This the grass hay in the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eragrostis_curvula & the straw hay is just the normal golden straw type of hay. On the other hand i asked the lady working there if there are seeds and she says no, the bale isnt 100% brown and has a bit of green to it with a fresh smell but im scared as hell if seeds pop up, this shit is some bad ass hardy type of grass. . Any help would be appreciated. Peace


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 9, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey there guys, i went into a feed store today to get a bale of hay to mulch the no till outdoor vegetable garden, i had two options the straw hay & then the grass type of hay, so i thought the grass hay would be better cause it looked like its more sowed in than the straw hay and wouldnt blow away as easy, which would you guys recommend and would it be cool mulching my ladies with it ? This the grass hay in the link https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eragrostis_curvula & the straw hay is just the normal golden straw type of hay. On the other hand i asked the lady working there if there are seeds and she says no, the bale isnt 100% brown and has a bit of green to it with a fresh smell but im scared as hell if seeds pop up, this shit is some bad ass hardy type of grass. . Any help would be appreciated. Peace


I'd say you made the right choice. Just from the wiki link you provided I would bet that it's a great bio accumulator based upon the root system that "penetrates over 13 feet deep" in to the soil.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 9, 2014)

The straw is a bedding, not much nutrition and it drains very easily.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 9, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> The straw is a bedding, not much nutrition and it drains very easily.



It would do well as a mulch, to prevent evaporation from the medium. But it wouldn't provide much nutritionally, I'd opt for an alfalfa or Timothy hay mix...


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 9, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'd say you made the right choice. Just from the wiki link you provided I would bet that it's a great bio accumulator based upon the root system that "penetrates over 13 feet deep" in to the soil.


Thank you for the reply bro, definitely should have some awesome nutrients within, all im worried about is the possibility of it having seeds cause some people say it could pop up the next year & they might be extremely tiny, for my ladies pots its not a problem but the outdoor garden it could turn into a menace? I still have lucerne/afalfa to mulch my ladies with but i guess i could get the straw bale and mix up some lucerne/alfalfa for my ladies and just add the straw to the outdoor garden, Peace bro !


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 9, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> The straw is a bedding, not much nutrition and it drains very easily.





a senile fungus said:


> It would do well as a mulch, to prevent evaporation from the medium. But it wouldn't provide much nutritionally, I'd opt for an alfalfa or Timothy hay mix...


Hey man, so i take it the straw will probably dry out very quickly and blow away in an instant ? I could find out and order a bale of alfalfa, atleast it will be way easier to deal with if it does sprout aswell ? On the other hand would a 2" layer of lucerne mulch be okay for my ladies or possibly a bit too strong cause it is more potent than afalfa? Peace man thank you for the input.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 9, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you for the reply bro, definitely should have some awesome nutrients within, all im worried about is the possibility of it having seeds cause some people say it could pop up the next year & they might be extremely tiny, for my ladies pots its not a problem but the outdoor garden it could turn into a menace? I still have lucerne/afalfa to mulch my ladies with but i guess i could get the straw bale and mix up some lucerne/alfalfa for my ladies and just add the straw to the outdoor garden, Peace bro !


If you're worried about seeds you could always compost the grass. That pile would heat up pretty quickly and kill any seeds present


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## a senile fungus (Dec 9, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> If you're worried about seeds you could always compost the grass. That pile would heat up pretty quickly and kill any seeds present



Yes that. And also, it'd just be grass seeds really, no harm as a living mulch I wouldn't think...


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 9, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Yes that. And also, it'd just be grass seeds really, no harm as a living mulch I wouldn't think...


I agree, but I can see the hesitation with it in an outdoor garden where it could become very invasive.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 9, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I agree, but I can see the hesitation with it in an outdoor garden where it could become very invasive.



True.

My outdoor garden this year suffered from erosion at the surface due to lack of cover and roots to keep the soil around. 

Next year its cover crops and mulch all the way...

I'm really surprised how much surface soil washed away...


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 10, 2014)

Thank you guys again for the input, i would love to compost it although the problem is i dont have space to compost anything here also its not my place so taking the risk of potentially causing a invasive weed problem will have to be scratched off, bedding hay wont do the trick either so ill have to wait it out till i get some alfalfa, Peace ! : )


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## DonPetro (Dec 10, 2014)

Rosemary over-wintering nicely in no-till rols under a 23w cfl.

 
ROLS brings all kind of life to the party.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 10, 2014)

So today i just bought a bale of bedding hay, apparently im going to wait like 2-3 weeks for alfalfa hay so i just took the bale, should do a good job outdoor just wondering if its recommend for my ladies ? or maybe mix up the bedding hay with lucerne hay ? Not too concerned about its nutrient content at this stage cause ill be doing AACT's.

Here are the ladies im thinking of flipping to flowering tomorrow though





The bottom right plant has grown very quickly apparently a mango kush but im hoping its not a male though, how do you tell if its just more sativa or its just a male ? I was thinking it would have balls by now seeing as the other unknown indica in the top left has female preflowers but it seems it is taking some time to show as it was planted at the same time as the unknown indica, plz let it be a fem !!!!


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 10, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> So today i just bought a bale of bedding hay, apparently im going to wait like 2-3 weeks for alfalfa hay so i just took the bale, should do a good job outdoor just wondering if its recommend for my ladies ? or maybe mix up the bedding hay with lucerne hay ? Not too concerned about its nutrient content at this stage cause ill be doing AACT's.
> 
> Here are the ladies im thinking of flipping to flowering tomorrow though
> 
> ...


The hay will be A-OK for a mulch.

I will defer to somone more knowledgeable than I on spotting pre-flowers in veg. I always just take clones and flip them to flower.

The plants are looking very nice bro!


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 10, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> The hay will be A-OK for a mulch.
> 
> I will defer to somone more knowledgeable than I on spotting pre-flowers in veg. I always just take clones and flip them to flower.
> 
> The plants are looking very nice bro!


Thank you bro, ill pop some in the pots then.

well if it does come out a male hopefully the church will take over its space because its becoming very bushy. They all been vegged with the 250w MH, normal base mix of a third of peat,perli,ewc just been doing the lacto b. watering but was considering adding some molasses with that, then maybe hitting up a AACT on the 2nd,3rd or 4th week of flowering, not sure when i should flip though, ive seen grows where plants are tiny and end up huge. Peace bro !


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 10, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you bro, ill pop some in the pots then.
> 
> well if it does come out a male hopefully the church will take over its space because its becoming very bushy. They all been vegged with the 250w MH, normal base mix of a third of peat,perli,ewc just been doing the lacto b. watering but was considering adding some molasses with that, then maybe hitting up a AACT on the 2nd,3rd or 4th week of flowering, not sure when i should flip though, ive seen grows where plants are tiny and end up huge. Peace bro !


First time growing The Church? I had it in my garden for a couple years. It didn't get huge per se, but it had pretty spindly branches that didn't do well when the buds started to fatten up. Might want to consider something to help support the bud weight.

I really liked that strain BTW. It had a really unique floral odor (didn't smell like weed at all) which translated over to the taste 100%.


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## earthling420 (Dec 10, 2014)

So ive seen a couple different soil recipes and i am wondering how one decides how much of the meals and rock dusts to add? How much will be too much? Im about to mix my soil together and just wanna double check everything before i mess up. Ive seen half a cup per cubic foot and 1 cup and even 2-4 cups per cubic foot. Anything you awesome organic growers could share?


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 10, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> First time growing The Church? I had it in my garden for a couple years. It didn't get huge per se, but it had pretty spindly branches that didn't do well when the buds started to fatten up. Might want to consider something to help support the bud weight.
> 
> I really liked that strain BTW. It had a really unique floral odor (didn't smell like weed at all) which translated over to the taste 100%.


First time bro, ud agree for a 3x3 it could get pretty big though ? I was thinking of what i could do to support the plants though bro, we dont really have specialised tomato cages here but rather like wire mesh with really big holes, ill look up some DIY ways to support these ladies, see what suits best. It really has beautiful smell bro, ill be really mind blown smoking it, especially with all the really brilliant ideas and help from you guys respect bro !


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 10, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> So ive seen a couple different soil recipes and i am wondering how one decides how much of the meals and rock dusts to add? How much will be too much? Im about to mix my soil together and just wanna double check everything before i mess up. Ive seen half a cup per cubic foot and 1 cup and even 2-4 cups per cubic foot. Anything you awesome organic growers could share?


Myself, I go with 2 cups total per cf of the meals, however you choose to arrive at that, and 4 cups total per cf of minerals.

I usually make 4 cf soil at a time, and to that I go with 2 cups kelp meal, 2 cups crab shell meal, 2 cups neem seed meal, and 2 cups alfalfa meal. Then I add 10-12 cups of rock dusts, 2 cups of oyster shell flour, a cup of greensand, a cup of gyspsum, and maybe a cup of azomite (depending on what I have laying around).

When you recycle the soil, you can add 1/2 of the meals that you originally started with, and skip on the minerals until maybe your third or fourth run of that same soil


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## earthling420 (Dec 10, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Myself, I go with 2 cups total per cf of the meals, however you choose to arrive at that, and 4 cups total per cf of minerals.
> 
> I usually make 4 cf soil at a time, and to that I go with 2 cups kelp meal, 2 cups crab shell meal, 2 cups neem seed meal, and 2 cups alfalfa meal. Then I add 10-12 cups of rock dusts, 2 cups of oyster shell flour, a cup of greensand, a cup of gyspsum, and maybe a cup of azomite (depending on what I have laying around).
> 
> When you recycle the soil, you can add 1/2 of the meals that you originally started with, and skip on the minerals until maybe your third or fourth run of that same soil


Awesome thanks bro. ALSO, would people using less cups per foot be using a lot of teas vs those using more cups per foot? Can i burn the plants adding too much or would it just be unnecessary? I have heard alfalfa meal can be pretty hot though


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 10, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> Awesome thanks bro. ALSO, would people using less cups per foot be using a lot of teas vs those using more cups per foot? Can i burn the plants adding too much or would it just be unnecessary? I have heard alfalfa meal can be pretty hot though


I would say the amount of meals that you use, and wether you need to supplement with teas would be a strain dependant thing. IMO it's tough to over-do the meals and "burn" a plant in organics. The nutrient value is tied up in those meals, and is released over a relatively long period of time through mineralization.

It's a pretty forgiving way to grow. If your compost is of a high quality, and you keep the medium at the correct level of moisture you could train the monkey in my avatar to grow your plants


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## earthling420 (Dec 10, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I would say the amount of meals that you use, and wether you need to supplement with teas would be a strain dependant thing. IMO it's tough to over-do the meals and "burn" a plant in organics. The nutrient value is tied up in those meals, and is released over a relatively long period of time through mineralization.
> 
> It's a pretty forgiving way to grow. If your compost is of a high quality, and you keep the medium at the correct level of moisture you could train the monkey in my avatar to grow your plants


lmao nice cause i feel like that monkey lol alright thanks again bro


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## smokey the cat (Dec 11, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey man, so i take it the straw will probably dry out very quickly and blow away in an instant ? I could find out and order a bale of alfalfa, atleast it will be way easier to deal with if it does sprout aswell ? On the other hand would a 2" layer of lucerne mulch be okay for my ladies or possibly a bit too strong cause it is more potent than afalfa? Peace man thank you for the input.


I get a lot of wind where I am, but the light mulch of clover and grasses I've put on on my outdoor containers stays put. Surprised the hell out of me, lol.

The mulch next to the soil almost immediately starts rotting down so becomes limp and quite sticky - it sort of glues the loser mulch on top of it to the soil.

If you wet down your mulch for the first few days I reckon you'll be sweet.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 11, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> I get a lot of wind where I am, but the light mulch of clover and grasses I've put on on my outdoor containers stays put. Surprised the hell out of me, lol.
> 
> The mulch next to the soil almost immediately starts rotting down so becomes limp and quite sticky - it sort of glues the loser mulch on top of it to the soil.
> 
> If you wet down your mulch for the first few days I reckon you'll be sweet.


I love living mulch bro, awesome how it all sits in place though but i want to ask bro, what do you guys use in winter & what do you use in summer ? Cause i remember last time i wanted to get some although the supplier said they were only suitable for cool weather.

Really appreciate the confirmation that using the hay will be sweet & i thought it should kind of glue itself together if i wet it down, thank you bro ! much respect


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## smokey the cat (Dec 11, 2014)

I don't plant anything outside in winter -too rainy and cold (8*C) and my place doesn't get all that much direct sun in winter.

My mulch - I've got grasses and clover weeds growing in all my ornamentals in pots - this is what I've harvested and used as "traditional mulch" for my outdoor container vege garden (along with some roughly chopped dandelions I've cut out of the lawn). My "living mulch" in my ornamental plant pots is all self-seeded weeds - guess that means that they have self selected for my growing conditions, lol

Aerated compost teas and SST are the secret to container garden health I reckon. SST turns everything into a monster, and ACT makes plants thrive in any crap potting mix.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 11, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> I don't plant anything outside in winter -too rainy and cold (8*C) and my place doesn't get all that much direct sun in winter.
> 
> My mulch - I've got grasses and clover weeds growing in all my ornamentals in pots - this is what I've harvested and used as "traditional mulch" for my outdoor container vege garden (along with some roughly chopped dandelions I've cut out of the lawn). My "living mulch" in my ornamental plant pots is all self-seeded weeds - guess that means that they have self selected for my growing conditions, lol
> 
> Aerated compost teas and SST are the secret to container garden health I reckon. SST turns everything into a monster, and ACT makes plants thrive in any crap potting mix.


I see what you mean bro, we also get to about that temp but no rains as its mostly summer rainfall here where i am.

Thats dope dude ! so basically just by planting a few clover around your garden and so on its automatically now seeded itself into your ornamental pots along with the weeds that were already there : ) ? Got to love nature man ! I have some wood sorrel that grows around my area and sometimes acts a a great ground cover around veggies https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxalis_stricta , also have some natural clover in a corner of garden but i need it to seed & i have some dandelions popping up voluntarily aswell which i want to leave until the population grows so i can chop em up.

Bro you guys use alfalfa seeds to make SST's right ? Id be really interested in giving it a try !


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

Hey, I'm a total newbe in the area of no till indoor gardening as well as to forums online of any sort. So please excuse me if I commit any forum sin and educate me.
I've grown off and on since 89. A few years ago I finally realized my dream and bought a farm out in the sticks.  I'm working on being off the grid and as self sufficient as possible. 
I got on here originally to find companion plants for MJ. Wanting to do a biodynamic grow approach. 
Wow! You guys are amazing! First thank you for putting such great info out there. After reading such good stuff I know my instincts were right on but how to execute is another matter. I live in an unfriendly state so I stay four plants or less. ( misdemeanor ) and tried growing outside a few times. Last time a cow got loose and ate my girls about two weeks from harvest. Boy was I sick. So I now only grow indoors for myself and a sick friend. I use a 4 1/2x4 1/2 x7 tent. And currently1000w hps but am considering a smaller different light source. 

Now for my questions. What can I use from my farm to start my no till set up inside. I have chickens, ducks, sheep, a cow, soon bees and rabbits. I own woods on a hillside with a creek and pasture on bottoms. Most things like nettle etc grow wild out here and I've always watered my plants from the creek although in winter ph is usually around 7.5-8 so I adjust. Lot of limestone and ball clay here in bourbon country. The forest is full of humus and leaf mulch(obviously) 
Any suggestions on how I might get started?


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

That's the creek I water from looking out kitchen window. It seems silly to me to go buy a bunch of stuff when so much is available right here. What do I really need to buy? Ok kelp is not available but can't I use a local substitute?


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## CannaBare (Dec 11, 2014)

Lemme guess. Tennessee? I was just eyeballing a place just like that! You beat me to it lol


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> View attachment 3311247 That's the creek I water from looking out kitchen window. It seems silly to me to go buy a bunch of stuff when so much is available right here. What do I really need to buy? Ok kelp is not available but can't I use a local substitute?


Btw I grow a lot of autos for sake of time. Current grow. Embarrassing compared to yours. Auto pounder with cheese and one tangelo rapido seven and half weeks from seed.


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> Lemme guess. Tennessee? I was just eyeballing a place just like that! You beat me to it lol


No north of there


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## DonPetro (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> View attachment 3311235 Hey, I'm a total newbe in the area of no till indoor gardening as well as to forums online of any sort. So please excuse me if I commit any forum sin and educate me.
> I've grown off and on since 89. A few years ago I finally realized my dream and bought a farm out in the sticks. View attachment 3311235View attachment 3311236 I'm working on being off the grid and as self sufficient as possible.
> I got on here originally to find companion plants for MJ. Wanting to do a biodynamic grow approach.
> Wow! You guys are amazing! First thank you for putting such great info out there. After reading such good stuff I know my instincts were right on but how to execute is another matter. I live in an unfriendly state so I stay four plants or less. ( misdemeanor ) and tried growing outside a few times. Last time a cow got loose and ate my girls about two weeks from harvest. Boy was I sick. So I now only grow indoors for myself and a sick friend. I use a 4 1/2x4 1/2 x7 tent. And currently1000w hps but am considering a smaller different light source.
> ...





farm hippie said:


> Btw I grow a lot of autos for sake of time. View attachment 3311253Current grow. Embarrassing compared to yours. Auto pounder with cheese and one tangelo rapido seven and half weeks from seed.


First off, big ups to you for finding paradise, simply beautiful. Second, plants look great! What size containers you rocking there?
I would gather the various materials you mentioned and build as big a compost pile as possible. The end product will have great bio-diversity and can be used in your soil mix and outdoor gardens. You can top-dress with the rabbit poo and mulch with the leaves. I would also suggest starting a worm bin and run some of the materials you mentioned through it. Worm castings are the shit!


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

What is a smart pot? I use ten gallon plastic planters from lowes and for my food gardens I use the same planters and also raised beds. I empty them all into the compost pile mix it all in and refill in the spring. I found that I don't have to rotate crops that way. Would this soil be ok indoors since there is no winter indoors? The freeze thaw cycle helps break things up outside.


DonPetro said:


> First off, big ups to you for finding paradise, simply beautiful. Second, plants look great! What size containers you rocking there?
> I would gather the various materials you mentioned and build as big a compost pile as possible. The end product will have great bio-diversity and can be used in your soil mix and outdoor gardens. You can top-dress with the rabbit poo and mulch with the leaves. I would also suggest starting a worm bin and run some of the materials you mentioned through it. Worm castings are the shit!


i do put worms in my planters. A couple of years ago I bought a bag of castings for like thirty bucks then it dawned on me to just put worms in. 
I do have a big compost pile have to use a front loader to mix it. When it rains big a lot of forest debris ends up washing down the hill into the pasture so I collect that into pile too. Problem is I have a hard time getting it to cook


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> What is a smart pot? I use ten gallon plastic planters from lowes and for my food gardens I use the same planters and also raised beds. I empty them all into the compost pile mix it all in and refill in the spring. I found that I don't have to rotate crops that way. Would this soil be ok indoors since there is no winter indoors? The freeze thaw cycle helps break things up outside.
> 
> i do put worms in my planters. A couple of years ago I bought a bag of castings for like thirty bucks then it dawned on me to just put worms in.
> I do have a big compost pile have to use a front loader to mix it. When it rains big a lot of forest debris ends up washing down the hill into the pasture so I collect that into pile too. Problem is I have a hard time getting it to cook


oh and thanks. The plants are in my soil mix. But by the end of the grow like now I end up having to use some light ferts. Did not know about teas and such till now.


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## DonPetro (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> What is a smart pot? I use ten gallon plastic planters from lowes and for my food gardens I use the same planters and also raised beds. I empty them all into the compost pile mix it all in and refill in the spring. I found that I don't have to rotate crops that way. Would this soil be ok indoors since there is no winter indoors? The freeze thaw cycle helps break things up outside.
> 
> i do put worms in my planters. A couple of years ago I bought a bag of castings for like thirty bucks then it dawned on me to just put worms in.
> I do have a big compost pile have to use a front loader to mix it. When it rains big a lot of forest debris ends up washing down the hill into the pasture so I collect that into pile too. Problem is I have a hard time getting it to cook


Smart pots are pots made out of heavy fabric usually and the big advantage is that they "air-prune" the roots preventing them from spinning out like they can do in plastic pots. 
You may want to add more manure to your pile and provide a high N source such as alfalfa or blood meal to stimulate the microbial action.


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Smart pots are pots made out of heavy fabric usually and the big advantage is that they "air-prune" the roots preventing them from spinning out like they can do in plastic pots.
> You may want to add more manure to your pile and provide a high N source such as alfalfa or blood meal to stimulate the microbial action.


Cool. Thanks although even when I clean the chicken coup out and put a couple months worth of dung it still won't cook. Yet it is such a hot fertilizer you can not use it directly or it will burn the shit out of most plants


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

wha


farm hippie said:


> Cool. Thanks although even when I clean the chicken coup out and put a couple months worth of dung it still won't cook. Yet it is such a hot fertilizer you can not use it directly or it will burn the shit out of most plants


t is a good size smart pots to use in a4x4 tent?


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> wha
> 
> t is a good size smart pots to use in a4x4 tent?


so it seems the important thing is to build a living soil out of organic matter and amend with minerals that the organics will take from as needed. Is that the basic gist of it. I feel like such a newb after reading all your alls posts.


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> Smart pots are pots made out of heavy fabric usually and the big advantage is that they "air-prune" the roots preventing them from spinning out like they can do in plastic pots.
> You may want to add more manure to your pile and provide a high N source such as alfalfa or blood meal to stimulate the microbial action.


What size is good? And aren't they a bitch to move. My tent goes in the loft in winter and down below in summer


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## DonPetro (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> What size is good? And aren't they a bitch to move. My tent goes in the loft in winter and down below in summer


In a 4x4 tent i would go with 4 7 gallon smart pots. They can be a bit of a pain to move around and are best placed in a catch tray for more easily moving and to obviously catch run off which can be an issue. I have seen root rot occur in large plastic pots even with adequate drainage. The smart pots allow for more even moisture distribution imo because of their ability to breathe. 


farm hippie said:


> so it seems the important thing is to build a living soil out of organic matter and amend with minerals that the organics will take from as needed. Is that the basic gist of it. I feel like such a newb after reading all your alls posts.


Yes, a good and plentiful humus source is the key. Mineral amendments are also very important for micro and trace elements. Combine the two and let the plant do its thing. Its great peace of mind knowing your medicine was only given water throughout its entire life.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> View attachment 3311235 Hey, I'm a total newbe in the area of no till indoor gardening as well as to forums online of any sort. So please excuse me if I commit any forum sin and educate me.
> I've grown off and on since 89. A few years ago I finally realized my dream and bought a farm out in the sticks. View attachment 3311235View attachment 3311236 I'm working on being off the grid and as self sufficient as possible.
> I got on here originally to find companion plants for MJ. Wanting to do a biodynamic grow approach.
> Wow! You guys are amazing! First thank you for putting such great info out there. After reading such good stuff I know my instincts were right on but how to execute is another matter. I live in an unfriendly state so I stay four plants or less. ( misdemeanor ) and tried growing outside a few times. Last time a cow got loose and ate my girls about two weeks from harvest. Boy was I sick. So I now only grow indoors for myself and a sick friend. I use a 4 1/2x4 1/2 x7 tent. And currently1000w hps but am considering a smaller different light source.
> ...


The possibilities are endless. If you wanted to, you could put together a really kick-ass soil for next to no $$. Leaf mold, rabbit poop, nettle, borage, comfrey, dandelions, yarrow, horsetail, clover, lavender, compost..... all can be used.

What do you have access to from that list?


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> In a 4x4 tent i would go with 4 7 gallon smart pots. They can be a bit of a pain to move around and are best placed in a catch tray for more easily moving and to obviously catch run off which can be an issue. I have seen root rot occur in large plastic pots even with adequate drainage. The smart pots allow for more even moisture distribution imo because of their ability to breathe.
> 
> Yes, a good and plentiful humus source is the key. Mineral amendments are also very important for micro and trace elements. Combine the two and let the plant do its thing. Its great peace of mind knowing your medicine was only given water throughout its entire life.


Thanks a bunch. Makes total sense. Natural grown veggies and weed and meat. Who could ask for more. Ok I'm starting to brew my own beer too. Which by the way is a great co2 source for the tent


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> The possibilities are endless. If you wanted to, you could put together a really kick-ass soil for next to no $$. Leaf mold, rabbit poop, nettle, borage, comfrey, dandelions, yarrow, horsetail, clover, lavender, compost..... all can be used.
> 
> What do you have access to from that list?


Most all of it. Including lichens and mosses. My creek is clean from chemicals since closest city is 45 miles. It is all spring water and runoff from pastures and forests


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

A


farm hippie said:


> Most all of it. Including lichens and mosses. My creek is clean from chemicals since closest city is 45 miles. It is all spring water and runoff from pastures and forests


lthough this time of year most is dormant but the bluegrass region is great as much of that grows on my land wild.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 11, 2014)

Your base should consist of equal parts peat moss (or in your case leaf mold), compost, and aeration bits. You may need to spend a few bucks on something like crushed lava rock or rice hulls for aeration.

You will then want to collect the native plants from that list above. Nettle, horsetail, dandelion, comfrey, borage, etc and split them in to 2 groups. One you will leave out to dry, and eventually (using a mortar and pestle) turn those in to meals. The other group you will use fresh, and turn in to an FPE (fermented plant extract). This website will give you some pointers on that. http://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346

You will add your various meals to your base at apx 1-2 cups per cubic foot. Add some rabbit poop in there, along with some rock dusts and minerals. If you have a local rock quarry you may be able to score some free fines. Picking up a small bag of greensand, garden gypsum, dolomite lime, and azomite would be a good idea too. Your minerals will be added at 3-4 cups per cf.

Once your soil has sat for a month or so, you should be ready to rock, and you should have some fermented extracts at the ready too. You can use mostly just water, and the occasional FPE and compost tea.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 11, 2014)

Awesome info guys ! farm hippie your land looks pretty perfect to get some serious permaculture done, looks like you got some awesome water catchment opportunity on that land !


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

Thanks for t


SouthernSoil* said:


> Awesome info guys ! farm hippie your land looks pretty perfect to get some serious permaculture done, looks like you got some awesome water catchment opportunity on that land !


he help all. I've been experimenting with hugelkulture mounds. The couple I have really produce well. I wonder if that concept could be converted to indoor. 

Concept is easy. Take some wood preferably logs pile them up to about five/ ten ft high to build a mound Then add compost and soils to cover it a few ft thick. You now have a mound that will grow richer over the next many years as the wood decomposes. 

It uses the concept of a mother log like a downed tree in the forest that supports life for a long time


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Your base should consist of equal parts peat moss (or in your case leaf mold), compost, and aeration bits. You may need to spend a few bucks on something like crushed lava rock or rice hulls for aeration.
> 
> You will then want to collect the native plants from that list above. Nettle, horsetail, dandelion, comfrey, borage, etc and split them in to 2 groups. One you will leave out to dry, and eventually (using a mortar and pestle) turn those in to meals. The other group you will use fresh, and turn in to an FPE (fermented plant extract). This website will give you some pointers on that. http://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346
> 
> ...


thank you! I will get started as I can. I've learned a lot already and had some dots connected as well. Will this do well with a long running sativa say fifteen weeks?


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

Oh and water catchment? I work on diverting water here. I have learned that if we have a good dryspell then if I can catch a bunch of runnoff from the woods when it starts flowing it is basically a forest floor tea.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> thank you! I will get started as I can. I've learned a lot already and had some dots connected as well. Will this do well with a long running sativa say fifteen weeks?


Sure will. You might want to top-dress some compost with some of the meals scratched in half way through flower, but aside from that you'll be good.


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Sure will. You might want to top-dress some compost with some of the meals scratched in half way through flower, but aside from that you'll be good.


Good to know. I grew up in so cal in the seventies and smoked some now legendary strains. My all time favorite was Thai stick. Never found a high quite like that since. Very visual and trippy. Have had some full moon seeds for a few years now it's supposedly a very visual sativa from Thailand but it has a flower time of fifteen plus weeks. Stoooopidly long so have not grown it. But am going to when these autos are done in a few.


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

T


farm hippie said:


> Good to know. I grew up in so cal in the seventies and smoked some now legendary strains. My all time favorite was Thai stick. Never found a high quite like that since. Very visual and trippy. Have had some full moon seeds for a few years now it's supposedly a very visual sativa from Thailand but it has a flower time of fifteen plus weeks. Stoooopidly long so have not grown it. But am going to when these autos are done in a few.


this method will hopefully bring out its full potential. My faves are sativas but such bitches to grow. I don't fool with pure bloods much because so damned long in finishing. I mean in the approx six months to grow this I can do almost three runs of autos.


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## Mohican (Dec 11, 2014)

Legend has it that that early Thai stick was dipped in "opium water" a byproduct of opium refinement. I loved the old Thai stick too!

I want to try and get some real deal Thai and try and grow it. I have gotten pretty good at growing sativa.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Dec 11, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Legend has it that that early Thai stick was dipped in "opium water" a byproduct of opium refinement. I loved the old Thai stick too!
> 
> I want to try and get some real deal Thai and try and grow it. I have gotten pretty good at growing sativa.


"u mean that stuff tied to a stick?"
Cheech


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

Yeah I always heard that too.


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Yeah I always heard that too.


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## farm hippie (Dec 11, 2014)

It was wrapped onto a bamboo stick. Would smoke it on the way to school. It made the school busses look like giant caterpillars. Great visually trippy weed.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 12, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Oh and water catchment? I work on diverting water here. I have learned that if we have a good dryspell then if I can catch a bunch of runnoff from the woods when it starts flowing it is basically a forest floor tea.


Hugelkultur is awesome dude, it would be really interesting to see some weed grown with a hugel mound ! Read lots of good things about it.

Concerning the water catchment you'll have to read up about how to setup swales on contour and so forth depending on how big your land is, cause by the sounds of it you want a paradise and thats the best way you can possibly do it i rate, you're just speeding up a process of nature.

& dude 6 month sativa's are way worth it ! my home grown outdoor that took 6 months had the most solid high ever ! i had been smoking weed for about 3-4 years at that time, i used to find the bong packed the next day many times because one hit just fucked me up too much ! : )


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## BluJayz (Dec 12, 2014)

Wow lots of information. Why don't I see much talk of indivually potting plants. Then recycle the leftover after harvest , add some more soil/ammendments etc and use again that way? Doesvbit have to be larger containers? Is there a con I missed?


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 12, 2014)

BluJayz said:


> Wow lots of information. Why don't I see much talk of indivually potting plants. Then recycle the leftover after harvest , add some more soil/ammendments etc and use again that way? Doesvbit have to be larger containers? Is there a con I missed?


You can certainly dump the container of soil out and re-amend, then use it again. The "No-Till" title in the thread means that we don't dump the soil..... it's just left in the bucket and a new clone is put right back in there. The thinking behind this is that you've already got a thriving soil food web, with mycorrhizae already networked throughout the container, and your new clone will plug right in to this and benefit from it.


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## hyroot (Dec 12, 2014)

I'm thinking of upping the pot size I that use from 10 gals to 15 gals.
*Thoughts:

1.* taking a whole soil / root ball out of a 10 gal an putting it into a 15 gal and add more soil around it and continue the no till rols method....

*2.* just break it up and cook the soil til the roots break down and add to the 15 gal. Then topdress nutes and vermicompost

*3.* do step 2 but re-amend to make a whole new soil mix with the same used soil and cook til ready..


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## DonPetro (Dec 12, 2014)

hyroot said:


> I'm thinking of upping the pot size I that ues from 10 gals to 15 gals.
> *Thoughts:
> 
> 1.* taking a whole soil / root ball out of a 10 gal an putting it into a 15 gal and add more soil around it and continue the no till rols method....
> ...


I like number 3. I did the same with the soil from my potted pepper plants.


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## PeaceLoveCannabis (Dec 12, 2014)

What do my ROLS friends do when a beautiful plant starts to grow pale green, to yellowish new growth? It looks to me like Magnesium. I know its not nitrogen. But my main question is what could i do to turn these ladys around? I don't want to go out and buy "organic ferts" cause i am not that type of person. But I cannot let it go yellow., so i have to do what works. Any advice?

edit: Forgot to mention its most likely mg, or something similar. What would be good to use either as a AACT or top dress. All input is greatly appreciated


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 12, 2014)

PeaceLoveCannabis said:


> What do my ROLS friends do when a beautiful plant starts to grow pale green, to yellowish new growth? It looks to me like Magnesium. I know its not nitrogen. But my main question is what could i do to turn these ladys around? I don't want to go out and buy "organic ferts" cause i am not that type of person. But I cannot let it go yellow., so i have to do what works. Any advice?
> 
> edit: Forgot to mention its most likely mg, or something similar. What would be good to use either as a AACT or top dress. All input is greatly appreciated


I would start with a generous top dress of worm castings and/or a compost tea. Wether the problem is ph or unprocessed organic matter I would send in a battalion of microbes to sort it out for you.


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## BluJayz (Dec 12, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> You can certainly dump the container of soil out and re-amend, then use it again. The "No-Till" title in the thread means that we don't dump the soil..... it's just left in the bucket and a new clone is put right back in there. The thinking behind this is that you've already got a thriving soil food web, with mycorrhizae already networked throughout the container, and your new clone will plug right in to this and benefit from it.


Thanks, 

I meant to ask more about the multuiple plants per container driving up the 20,50,100 gallon pots? Is there a bennifical reason to the multiple plants? Does tillng hurt myco? 

I also wonder how you don't till the soil, when my harvest is done 75-90% of the soil is tied up in roots.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Dec 12, 2014)

Anyone know about bagged castings that are left in the sun? Sun beats down all day and cooks the plastic. Do the benefits of the casting diminish? They are worm gold plus. The price seems reasonable, but sitting outside gives me worry.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 12, 2014)

BluJayz said:


> Thanks,
> 
> I meant to ask more about the multuiple plants per container driving up the 20,50,100 gallon pots? Is there a bennifical reason to the multiple plants? Does tillng hurt myco?
> 
> I also wonder how you don't till the soil, when my harvest is done 75-90% of the soil is tied up in roots.



I can't speak for multiple plants in one container. Never tried it.

The rootball is left in tact, in the soil. It stays put in the container. It will degrade over time and be consumed by the microbes in the soil. I lay a cover crop down and leave the containers fallow for 3 weeks in between rounds to help in that regard.


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## mike4c4 (Dec 12, 2014)

PeaceLoveCannabis said:


> What do my ROLS friends do when a beautiful plant starts to grow pale green, to yellowish new growth? It looks to me like Magnesium. I know its not nitrogen. But my main question is what could i do to turn these ladys around? I don't want to go out and buy "organic ferts" cause i am not that type of person. But I cannot let it go yellow., so i have to do what works. Any advice?
> 
> edit: Forgot to mention its most likely mg, or something similar. What would be good to use either as a AACT or top dress. All input is greatly appreciated


you can add a spoon of epsom salt to your next watering. its at most grocery stores. very high in mg


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## OutofLEDCloset (Dec 12, 2014)

I say 1., its ready to go!


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## hyroot (Dec 13, 2014)

if new growth is yellow. I'd say its an iron deficiency not mag. kelp tea and top dress vermicompost


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## farm hippie (Dec 13, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hugelkultur is awesome dude, it would be really interesting to see some weed grown with a hugel mound ! Read lots of good things about it.
> 
> Concerning the water catchment you'll have to read up about how to setup swales on contour and so forth depending on how big your land is, cause by the sounds of it you want a paradise and thats the best way you can possibly do it i rate, you're just speeding up a process of nature.
> 
> & dude 6 month sativa's are way worth it ! my home grown outdoor that took 6 months had the most solid high ever ! i had been smoking weed for about 3-4 years at that time, i used to find the bong packed the next day many times because one hit just fucked me up too much ! : )


Way cool. I will read up on the water. My property is about 30 acres. It is a holler with pasture on bottom and creek and nice forest on hillside and up top. About 1/2mile long. So when it rains creek rises crazy.


st0wandgrow said:


> I can't speak for multiple plants in one container. Never tried it.
> 
> The rootball is left in tact, in the soil. It stays put in the container. It will degrade over time and be consumed by the microbes in the soil. I lay a cover crop down and leave the containers fallow for 3 weeks in between rounds to help in that regard.


why not just create basically a raised bed indoors. Think outdoors but not. I have seen veggies that way. The benifits of say a 4x4x 2 patch is volume. Way more stable. Kind of like a fifty gallon aquarium is easier than a ten to maintain


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 13, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Way cool. I will read up on the water. My property is about 30 acres. It is a holler with pasture on bottom and creek and nice forest on hillside and up top. About 1/2mile long. So when it rains creek rises crazy.
> why not just create basically a raised bed indoors. Think outdoors but not. I have seen veggies that way. The benifits of say a 4x4x 2 patch is volume. Way more stable. Kind of like a fifty gallon aquarium is easier than a ten to maintain


A raised bed indoors would be ideal. Believe me, I've kicked the idea around before. Geo pot makes some fabric raised beds with PVC frames that look real nice. I'm sure one could easily be built too.


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## earthling420 (Dec 14, 2014)

damn all these awesome posts! love the organic thread and you regulars  i just got my soil mixed and holy fuck it looks beautiful. Shits all over bagged dirt.

For teas can you add molasses to any tea or only some?
Im about to do an alfalfa tea and a kelp tea. and how do you know what you can mix? could i do the alfalfa and kelp together?


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 14, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> damn all these awesome posts! love the organic thread and you regulars  i just got my soil mixed and holy fuck it looks beautiful. Shits all over bagged dirt.
> 
> For teas can you add molasses to any tea or only some?
> Im about to do an alfalfa tea and a kelp tea. and how do you know what you can mix? could i do the alfalfa and kelp together?


Molasses can certainly be added to any tea, but I treat it as more of a food stock for microbes so I only add it to compost teas.

Alfalfa and kelp can absolutely be used together in a nutrient tea. I use about a cup total (ie 1/2 cup alfalfa 1/2 cup kelp) to 4 gallons of water and then dilute as needed to cover all of your plants


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I would start with a generous top dress of worm castings and/or a compost tea. Wether the problem is ph or unprocessed organic matter I would send in a battalion of microbes to sort it out for you.


great advice........



st0wandgrow said:


> A raised bed indoors would be ideal. *Believe me, I've kicked the idea around before*. Geo pot makes some fabric raised beds with PVC frames that look real nice. I'm sure one could easily be built too.


you and me both monkey..............no fucking space and too many pigs around me


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## earthling420 (Dec 14, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Molasses can certainly be added to any tea, but I treat it as more of a food stock for microbes so I only add it to compost teas.
> 
> Alfalfa and kelp can absolutely be used together in a nutrient tea. I use about a cup total (ie 1/2 cup alfalfa 1/2 cup kelp) to 4 gallons of water and then dilute as needed to cover all of your plants


Ah i see. Sweet! now im excited for the teas i can make. So can i pretty much mix anything like that stuff. Such as throing in some ewc and compost? Do i need to clean the bucket out after each brew beforee the next? Bout to get a tea going right now


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 14, 2014)

earthling420 said:


> Ah i see. Sweet! now im excited for the teas i can make. So can i pretty much mix anything like that stuff. Such as throing in some ewc and compost? Do i need to clean the bucket out after each brew beforee the next? Bout to get a tea going right now


You can brew pretty much anything that has nutrient value. I'd keep those brews separate from your compost tea until you can do a bit more reading on it. Certain things can inhibit microbial multiplication, so best to keep it simple (castings and molasses) until you're certain.

http://microbeorganics.com/


I like to clean my bucket and air stones after every brew. I get a bit of a bio film that builds up in the bucket and on the stones


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## earthling420 (Dec 15, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> You can brew pretty much anything that has nutrient value. I'd keep those brews separate from your compost tea until you can do a bit more reading on it. Certain things can inhibit microbial multiplication, so best to keep it simple (castings and molasses) until you're certain.
> 
> http://microbeorganics.com/
> 
> ...


Dude, thanks for the link. Just finished reading a bunch of it. So interesting, I never knew the capabilities that deeply. That's the.best link ive. gotten! 
Organic is amazing.


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## farm hippie (Dec 15, 2014)

I've decided to try building my soil from as much material as possible from the farm. I'm going to start with a mother log.


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## farm hippie (Dec 15, 2014)

Located one of many in the woods. A mother log is one that has been decomposing for some time. It should be at the state where you can grab a handful and it feels like potting soil


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## farm hippie (Dec 15, 2014)

It is full of all kinds of life and needs to be this consistency because wood itself will rob nitrogen as it decomposes. 

I am also collecting a bunch of leaf mold from Forrest floor. Also fresh chicken manure, some deer manure, fine limestone gravel from the creek bed. Pearlite, crushed oyster shells that I use as a suppliment for cal with the chickens, bone meal, and one of the few ingredients I don't have available greensand. Oh and a bunch of moss.


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## farm hippie (Dec 15, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> It is full of all kinds of life and needs to be this consistency because wood itself will rob nitrogen as it decomposes.
> 
> I am also collecting a bunch of leaf mold from Forrest floor. Also fresh chicken manure, some deer manure, fine limestone gravel from the creek bed. Pearlite, crushed oyster shells that I use as a suppliment for cal with the chickens, bone meal, and one of the few ingredients I don't have available greensand. Oh and a bunch of moss.


 I have plenty of earthworms and sow bugs in the mix as well. 
Going to use 100gallon container. For this grow and treat it like an indoor patch of the land. Going to let it all cook for a few weeks first then going to sow directly into the soil. Any suggestions?


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## goodjoint (Dec 15, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> I have plenty of earthworms and sow bugs in the mix as well.
> Going to use 100gallon container. For this grow and treat it like an indoor patch of the land. Going to let it all cook for a few weeks first then going to sow directly into the soil. Any suggestions?


sounds cool... can sow bugs bring any negative effects to the indoor grow? I like the idea of having them in the mix.


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## farm hippie (Dec 15, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> sounds cool... can sow bugs bring any negative effects to the indoor grow? I like the idea of having them in the mix.


I'm not 100% sure. But I do know they feed on decaying matter so their poop should be full of beneficials. An old farmer once explained to me a good rule of thumb with herbivors and insects. If it eats it, it poops it, if it poops it, it will always fertilize what it ate.


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## farm hippie (Dec 15, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> I'm not 100% sure. But I do know they feed on decaying matter so their poop should be full of beneficials. An old farmer once explained to me a good rule of thumb with herbivors and insects. If it eats it, it poops it, if it poops it, it will always fertilize what it ate.


One cow can live on one acre but will fertilize two. My attitude is incorporate as much nature as possible. Two creatures that are hard NOT to find in a healthy natural growth or cultivated growth outdoors are earthworms and sow bugs


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## farm hippie (Dec 15, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> One cow can live on one acre but will fertilize two. My attitude is incorporate as much nature as possible. Two creatures that are hard NOT to find in a healthy natural growth or cultivated growth outdoors are earthworms and sow bugs


Did a little research. They are harmless to plants and people and they do eat decaying organic matter. They are crusteceans and can not keep moisture so that's why they live in damp places like under mulch. So in a no till setting it would stand to reason that they are part of your on site composting/ conversion crew


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## smokey the cat (Dec 16, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Did a little research. They are harmless to plants and people and they do eat decaying organic matter. They are crusteceans and can not keep moisture so that's why they live in damp places like under mulch. So in a no till setting it would stand to reason that they are part of your on site composting/ conversion crew


I know I expected my compost to harbour heaps of critters that'd attack the plant, and found it amazing when it didn't. Makes total sense - any insect found in mature compost isnt the type of animal that is going to be interested in living plants.


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## farm hippie (Dec 16, 2014)

smokey the cat said:


> I know I expected my compost to harbour heaps of critters that'd attack the plant, and found it amazing when it didn't. Makes total sense - any insect found in mature compost isnt the type of animal that is going to be interested in living plants.


Yeah. When I started farming one thing that amazed me over and over and still does is how much nature knows what she's doing. And how little she needs our help. 
Same applies to growing once you give her a chance she will pay your trust back.


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## tillygrower (Dec 16, 2014)

Does anyone grow any veggies in their grow room?
I was thinking of planting a few tomato plants around the edges.


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## farm hippie (Dec 16, 2014)

tillygrower said:


> Does anyone grow any veggies in their grow room?
> I was thinking of planting a few tomato plants around the edges.


I have but only in seperate pots. Indoor organicly grown veggies rock. As long as they don't have to compete for light with your girls


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## farm hippie (Dec 16, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> I have but only in seperate pots. Indoor organicly grown veggies rock. As long as they don't have to compete for light with your girls


Remember both weed and tomatoe plants can get quite large.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 16, 2014)

Hey guys, im in day 3 of the 600w hps on 12/12, temps are around 82-87 so its not too bad, company sent me a brand new fan controller free of charge, so the power outages story is sorted finally along with the 12v battery&timer for backup lighting i should be hermie free... & Ive only been watering with lacto b and water since veg, havent made any AACT's or SST's and not sure if i should now or wait another 3 weeks. Also could would Lucerne which is like afalfa but higher in N be fine for mulch ? or once it breaks down will it be too strong or will i only see slight break down if its used as mulch ? 

In 2 days i need to be out of the house for 3 days, so ive been working on a auto watering system for my ladies, i already bought a submersible pump,digital timer,have a bucket,got piping & T-Pieces, any of you guys got some experience with this ? I had a look at some DIY systems but trying to tweak something into my setup, i made a prototype picture for a better explanation.







As long as my pump and bucket stay above the level of the pots & the plastic container stays flat and not tilting i should be good to go and make this ? Any help or advice will be really really really appreciated. Peace & Respect


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## tillygrower (Dec 16, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> I have but only in seperate pots. Indoor organicly grown veggies rock. As long as they don't have to compete for light with your girls


Great. I just didn't know if the light cycle would be a problem or anything like that. My plan was pretty much to place them at the edges and use up any residual light and see what happens.


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## CannaBare (Dec 16, 2014)

tillygrower said:


> Great. I just didn't know if the light cycle would be a problem or anything like that. My plan was pretty much to place them at the edges and use up any residual light and see what happens.


I grow lettuce all around my plants! not a problem


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 16, 2014)

tillygrower said:


> Great. I just didn't know if the light cycle would be a problem or anything like that. My plan was pretty much to place them at the edges and use up any residual light and see what happens.


The tomato will do well in the veg room under 18/6 or something close. They don't fruit very well under 12/12 though


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## tillygrower (Dec 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> The tomato will do well in the veg room under 18/6 or something close. They don't fruit very well under 12/12 though


Ok yeah, this is the kind of info I'm looking for. Another plant that will be able to grow next to the marijuana and be ok when the lights flip to 12/12
Thanks


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 17, 2014)

Guys, ive got lucerne & normal wheat straw hay, should i mix them up and lay a thick mulch or just one of them ? Got the lucerne in its bag so its pretty clean i rate, hay has been standing outside for a week now, should i be concerned about bringing in any unwanted bugs ? Thank You


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## DonTesla (Dec 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm making 8cf+ of soil on Tuesday. No better time to do some side by sides. I will mix the peat and coir separate.
> 
> Tote one= 2cf peat, 1.5cf my EWC, 1.5cf rice hulls.
> 
> ...


Is there a link or thread for this SxS bro?!


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 17, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Is there a link or thread for this SxS bro?!


I didn't do a thread. For some reason the topic created a dust up here in the organics section over peat vs coco so I said fuck it and didn't bother. Plants turned out excellent though. Only difference I noticed was the coco coir needed to be watered less often..... which I didn't clue in to until mid way through flower, so the yield suffered a bit with the coco buckets. I chalked that off to less oxygen in the root zone due to my over-watering


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## DonTesla (Dec 17, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey guys, im in day 3 of the 600w hps on 12/12, temps are around 82-87 so its not too bad, company sent me a brand new fan controller free of charge, so the power outages story is sorted finally along with the 12v battery&timer for backup lighting i should be hermie free... & Ive only been watering with lacto b and water since veg, havent made any AACT's or SST's and not sure if i should now or wait another 3 weeks. Also could would Lucerne which is like afalfa but higher in N be fine for mulch ? or once it breaks down will it be too strong or will i only see slight break down if its used as mulch ?
> 
> In 2 days i need to be out of the house for 3 days, so ive been working on a auto watering system for my ladies, i already bought a submersible pump,digital timer,have a bucket,got piping & T-Pieces, any of you guys got some experience with this ? I had a look at some DIY systems but trying to tweak something into my setup, i made a prototype picture for a better explanation.
> 
> ...


I'm looking at doing one of these for The holidays, nice diagram, just wondering what size (strength) of pump you went with and why you don't want the water level with the plants.. Wouldn't want gravity over watering for us 

Respect
-Tesla


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## DonTesla (Dec 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I didn't do a thread. For some reason the topic created a dust up here in the organics section over peat vs coco so I said fuck it and didn't bother. Plants turned out excellent though. Only difference I noticed was the coco coir needed to be watered less often..... which I didn't clue in to until mid way through flower, so the yield suffered a bit with the coco buckets. I chalked that off to less oxygen in the root zone due to my over-watering


Well you paved a good trail, anyway, my BushWalking Brother.. Let us not forget truth is ridiculed before accepted as self evident

It's exciting to defend our positions, blazing, yelling at the computer screen,
Wiser though, would be defending the best positions, haha.
How can we know what they are without compare and contrast I wonder, stoned.

Personally, I can hardly wait for our next-next blend..
Got two new tweaked recipes untested and I'm going nuts for the Earth Blend we can't build til spring, how funny hey, but it's radically different, finally leaf mold based. What's fun is cutting out all the commercialism and getting right natural, fuck is Mother Earth a badass goddess with synergistic solutions for everything..
The better we grow, the more we see through all the gimmicky, poisonous knock offs all around us, it's great ..


----------



## Mohican (Dec 17, 2014)

I am so earthy crunchy now that I share part of my crop with the animals and the bugs. They get their cut and leave my part alone


----------



## st0wandgrow (Dec 17, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Well you paved a good trail, anyway, my BushWalking Brother.. Let us not forget truth is ridiculed before accepted as self evident
> 
> It's exciting to defend our positions, blazing, yelling at the computer screen,
> Wiser though, would be defending the best positions, haha.
> ...


Wise words right there. I'm looking forward to some leaf mold magic myself


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 17, 2014)

Mohican said:


> I am so earthy crunchy now that I share part of my crop with the animals and the bugs. They get their cut and leave my part alone


lol.

Earth to Mo!?
No no, no, Earth IS Mo..
haha


----------



## st0wandgrow (Dec 17, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> lol.
> 
> Earth to Mo!?
> No no, no, Earth IS Mo..
> haha


Mo has one of the best back yard set-ups ever. Little slice of heaven


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## DonTesla (Dec 17, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Mo has one of the best back yard set-ups ever. Little slice of heaven


Heaven is a good word..we wanna smoke several psycho Sativa in his pool one day .. Continental potluck style.. Hope Mo no mind! Hahaha


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## Mohican (Dec 17, 2014)

Thanks! It is a labor of love


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## Mohican (Dec 17, 2014)

I got some magic sativa seeds this weekend. Oh it is so on!


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## Mohican (Dec 17, 2014)

Just another drought filled crappy day here in SoCal!




Cheers,
Mo


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## OutofLEDCloset (Dec 17, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Just another drought filled crappy day here in SoCal!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What happened to our big storm. I havent seen it rain once. Its cold and looks like rain but only drizzle. Nice back yard. Where do you get your beans? I'm afraid of the mail.


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 17, 2014)

It showered on And off in San Diego for a day


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## DonPetro (Dec 17, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Just another drought filled crappy day here in SoCal!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That pool is calling my name...


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2014)

its been raining every other day here in the desert since last week. It rained last night. Its been cold and overcast everyday. The humidity had been much higher too.


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## DonTesla (Dec 17, 2014)

Mohican said:


> Just another drought filled crappy day here in SoCal!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is the most beautiful crappy day I have ever seen in this entire current life, mon. Are we in the wrong place, Petro!?


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## Mohican (Dec 18, 2014)

First beans I got 4 years ago were from a neighbor. Then I tried Attitude - worked great. Next I went to the local HT Cup. Now I trade with other caregivers and farmers.


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## DonPetro (Dec 18, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> That is the most beautiful crappy day I have ever seen in this entire current life, mon. Are we in the wrong place, Petro!?


Ya think?! Lol


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 18, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> I'm looking at doing one of these for The holidays, nice diagram, just wondering what size (strength) of pump you went with and why you don't want the water level with the plants.. Wouldn't want gravity over watering for us
> 
> Respect
> -Tesla


Hey thank you bro, i went for a pump that pumps 250 litre an hour, it has a shutter so u can adjust the flow though, as for the diagram i have changed the setup a bit.

All 4 pots now have a micro tap, i went and got 8mm and 10mm clear tubing but screwed it up and kept it aside cause it was too thick to build pressure, went for thinner back tubing cause apparently clear tubing cud build algae, ill take a picture of the setup later when lights come on so u can have a better look, i have to tweak the flow rates tonight and get things sorted cause tomorrow im leaving possibly till monday, i also have to tweak the level of the bucket id say just below where the pipes are is chilled or u could play around to see what u prefer, no doubt if u keep the bucket above it will siphon all the water and flood your pots lol, i did find that out while building, i thought the pump might of had a back pressure valve or sumthing but i was wrong although i could just buy one i guess. Peace Don !


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

Eight weeks from seed. Two auto pounder with cheese and one tangelo rapido. Used happy frog soil with worm castings and worms and special tea of chicken/duck manure and ground deer bone. 
Thanks to the awesome info here I am making an organic soil from the farm. Can't wait to start that grow


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 18, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Eight weeks from seed. Two auto pounder with cheese and one tangelo rapido. Used happy frog soil with worm castings and worms and special tea of chicken/duck manure and ground deer bone.
> Thanks to the awesome info here I am making an organic soil from the farm. Can't wait to start that growView attachment 3315400


Bro did you do 12 / 12 from seed ? i might have to plant a few more got 3 fems in my 3x3 but the 4th again is a male... im keen to try planting these "cheese" genetics i have, got to love variety but hard work keeping up with the differences lol , i do see now why people stick to clones : ) Peace

O and btw Don ill get some pics of the auto irrigation bro !


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Eight weeks from seed. Two auto pounder with cheese and one tangelo rapido. Used happy frog soil with worm castings and worms and special tea of chicken/duck manure and ground deer bone.
> Thanks to the awesome info here I am making an organic soil from the farm. Can't wait to start that growView attachment 3315400


Wish I was in Cali. I grew up on 2nd and olive in Huntington beach. Here in ky it's fucking freezing. Benn here twenty years and still hate winter.


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Bro did you do 12 / 12 from seed ? i might have to plant a few more got 3 fems in my 3x3 but the 4th again is a male... im keen to try planting these "cheese" genetics i have, got to love variety but hard work keeping up with the differences lol , i do see now why people stick to clones : ) Peace
> 
> O and btw Don ill get some pics of the auto irrigation bro !


These are auto flowers. They are litteraly eight weeks old from a seed. I usually average about two plus oz a plant depending on strain. This is my first soil grow with these.


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> These are auto flowers. They are litteraly eight weeks old from a seed. I usually average about two plus oz a plant depending on strain. This is my first soil grow with these.


And I just keep a 20/4 light schedule


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> And I just keep a 20/4 light schedule


Down in the lower left corner you see a couple full moon sativas starting plus a mystery plant. They will get transplanted next week when this grow is done and put on twelve and twelve for the grueling 14-16 week flower period. Hope they are worth it. These will go into the complete from the farm soil I made which will begin the rols for me


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## DonTesla (Dec 18, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey thank you bro, i went for a pump that pumps 250 litre an hour, it has a shutter so u can adjust the flow though, as for the diagram i have changed the setup a bit.
> 
> All 4 pots now have a micro tap, i went and got 8mm and 10mm clear tubing but screwed it up and kept it aside cause it was too thick to build pressure, went for thinner back tubing cause apparently clear tubing cud build algae, ill take a picture of the setup later when lights come on so u can have a better look, i have to tweak the flow rates tonight and get things sorted cause tomorrow im leaving possibly till monday, i also have to tweak the level of the bucket id say just below where the pipes are is chilled or u could play around to see what u prefer, no doubt if u keep the bucket above it will siphon all the water and flood your pots lol, i did find that out while building, i thought the pump might of had a back pressure valve or sumthing but i was wrong although i could just buy one i guess. Peace Don !


Sweet reply! Looking forward to the pics! Feel free to post in The Dons Organic Garden or inbox anytime, bra!


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Down in the lower left corner you see a couple full moon sativas starting plus a mystery plant. They will get transplanted next week when this grow is done and put on twelve and twelve for the grueling 14-16 week flower period. Hope they are worth it. These will go into the complete from the farm soil I made which will begin the rols for me


Btw autos just need a strong start. Give em a chance to build a good root system up front and your good to go. 
I grow them because I have to stay four plants or less and I can usually get about eight to twelve oz every nine to ten weeks. 

Although I do like to grow a " normal" photo period grow from time to time. Depending on the strain some autos are on par in potency with regs.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 18, 2014)

I'm so happy I chose to go organic!

Water only so far, a couple plants have gotten top dressed with alfalfa and kelp meal as needed. They've just been transplanted to 5gal pots from 1gal.





The two in the 1gal pots are stunted and probably will get tossed, I haven't the heart to cull them yet. I'm keeping the two runts in the 1gal pots and I top dressed with a heavily amended soil to see what happens...

I'll be flipping to flower in about a week, although I'd love to veg them for a couple more weeks. 

Any questions just ask! My neighbors who grow are blown away at my 'water only' technique.


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## DonPetro (Dec 18, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Btw autos just need a strong start. Give em a chance to build a good root system up front and your good to go.
> I grow them because I have to stay four plants or less and I can usually get about eight to twelve oz every nine to ten weeks.
> 
> Although I do like to grow a " normal" photo period grow from time to time. Depending on the strain some autos are on par in potency with regs.


What was the best auto you've grown in terms of overall quality?(potency, taste, smell)


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> What was the best auto you've grown in terms of overall quality?(potency, taste, smell)


Auto Maria 2 was really sweet piney smell. Decent yield about three oz. high was one of those creepers that sneaks up on you with a happy hammer and makes you say" powder my balls with pixie dust and fly me like a kite" good one two toke weed. The other was fast bud. Litteral sixty day from seed to cut. Yield was about an oz and half per so not great but talk about smelling like candy and nice mellow high. Giddy but not racey with a mellow come down. 

Just tried a sample of the auto pounder with cheese. It's premature and dried two days by woodstove but high is happy and it does taste green for sure but hints of cheese are there. I think it will be a good candidate.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 18, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> What was the best auto you've grown in terms of overall quality?(potency, taste, smell)



I've tried Think Different and I liked it so much that I ordered some seeds!

I want to see how the autos do outside in Michigan. It would be nice to have an outdoor crop finished and harvested by the time that the photo plants are just starting to flower....


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## farm hippie (Dec 18, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> Auto Maria 2 was really sweet piney smell. Decent yield about three oz. high was one of those creepers that sneaks up on you with a happy hammer and makes you say" powder my balls with pixie dust and fly me like a kite" good one two toke weed. The other was fast bud. Litteral sixty day from seed to cut. Yield was about an oz and half per so not great but talk about smelling like candy and nice mellow high. Giddy but not racey with a mellow come down.
> 
> Just tried a sample of the auto pounder with cheese. It's premature and dried two days by woodstove but high is happy and it does taste green for sure but hints of cheese are there. I think it will be a good candidate.





a senile fungus said:


> I've tried Think Different and I liked it so much that I ordered some seeds!
> 
> I want to see how the autos do outside in Michigan. It would be nice to have an outdoor crop finished and harvested by the time that the photo plants are just starting to flower....


know what you mean. Tried growing outside but a cow got loose and ate it about week or so from harvest. Was sick over that. So I stick to indoors. Plus too many deer and wild boar out here


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 18, 2014)

DonTesla said:


> Sweet reply! Looking forward to the pics! Feel free to post in The Dons Organic Garden or inbox anytime, bra!


Awe! thank you bro, ill try my best to take a shot or two then follow up with u on the weekend, ive been pumping water into clear sandwich baggies adjusting the micro taps, things are looking very promising, only thing im not sure about is if i should apply mulch then lay down the irrigation rings, it seems it would be way better seeing as i can slightly bury the rings in between the mulch ! would you say its cool to lay down alfalfa as mulch or too strong ? I havent fed yet and im about a week into flower. Thank you Bro ! Much respect.


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## DonTesla (Dec 18, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Awe! thank you bro, ill try my best to take a shot or two then follow up with u on the weekend, ive been pumping water into clear sandwich baggies adjusting the micro taps, things are looking very promising, only thing im not sure about is if i should apply mulch then lay down the irrigation rings, it seems it would be way better seeing as i can slightly bury the rings in between the mulch ! would you say its cool to lay down alfalfa as mulch or too strong ? I havent fed yet and im about a week into flower. Thank you Bro ! Much respect.


Sounds like you're making good progress, SS.. As for the water placement, I'd maybe put it about 80% deep into that mulch so there's a thin buffer..I like to keep the fungal mulch a bit dry so its more effective, an advantage most guys cant enjoy, but its also nice to have a bit of coverage for the topsoil, both for micro life protection and for soil aeration .. As for alfalfa I'd say make a tea it's perfect time for some of its reduced nodal spacing-effects but she too hot to do it raw, bra

Check you this wknd, 
DT


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## Mohican (Dec 19, 2014)

You could also apply a top layer of sand, gravel, or pumice over the rings. It helps retain moisture and reduces fungus gnats. Make sure the sand is clean and not salty.


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## Bueno Time (Dec 19, 2014)

I added two gallons of homemade vermicompost to my soil batch for next run. First harvest of homemade castings so Im real curious to see how much better this works, everything in the soil mix is the same as this run Im finishing up now except I added that extra 2 gallons of VC to make ~20 gallons of mix total for this batch but I also added for the first time ~5% biochar that I innoculated with a shitload of fish hydrolysate, fish emulsion, some leftover ACT, a little molasses and lacto b serum and a handful of native dirt (which is shit here lol).

Anyone using biochar in their mix? You notice much difference? Its supposed to have the most dramatic resultst in less fertile soils but works well at keeping even fertile soils more fertile and for longer.

Im using it first time in this batch and adding some to the current soil batch I have plants finishing up in ~1-2 weeks from harvest. Then after the next run with the homemade VC/biochar mix Im going to add the two batches together into a 40+ gallon no till in my 2x3 tent. It will be awesome to just plug clones in each cycle and top dress/mulch comfrey (bought 6 of em and planted em a week or so ago), vermicompost, dry amendments, living mulches, etc. And do some real proper organic gardening.

Anyway Im pretty baked and started rambling on about my own stuff but really I came here to ask who is using biochar.


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## Mohican (Dec 19, 2014)

I have a batch of vermi with shredded paper and biochar to see what happens. I tried mixing ash and lava dust. I ended up with concrete! Almost killed the plant!


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## a senile fungus (Dec 19, 2014)

I used biochar but it's my first soil mix so I've no idea if it does anything or not...


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 20, 2014)

farm hippie said:


> These athougho flowers. They are litteraly eight weeks old from a seed. I usually average about two plus oz a plant depending on strain. This is my first soil grow with these.


Like you said u like autoflower cause how fast it is, dope though dude ! We all got our different needs : )


DonTesla said:


> Sounds like you're making good progress, SS.. As for the water placement, I'd maybe put it about 80% deep into that mul
> ch so there's a thin buffer..I like to keep the fungal mulch a bit dry so its more effective, an advantage most guys cant enjoy, but its also nice to have a bit of coverage for the topsoil, both for micro life protection and for soil aeration .. As for alfalfa I'd say make a tea it's perfect time for some of its reduced nodal spacing-effects but she too hot to do it raw, bra
> 
> Check you this wknd,
> DT


Hey bro, all ended up cool with the rings all of them were flowing but i only layed them 20% deep for now so i could monitor their flow, i layed down the alfalfa but it was very dry as i kept it open in its bag for 3 months, i didnt add alot but do u mean its too hot to add it as mulch or too hot to compost raw bro ? Bro i set my timer to go on 10:00 am Sunday and off at 10:02 sunday i got paranoid thinking this will run for a week lol i take it im wrong ? Otherwise my plants are going to get a bit over a gallon of water split between them and a ceased pump, shit i was so late and in a rush i didnt test it or take pics for you. Peace bro thank you for the help


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 20, 2014)

Mohican said:


> You could also apply a top layer of sand, gravel, or pumice over the rings. It helps retain moisture and reduces fungus gnats. Make sure the sand is clean and not salty.


Hey thank you bro i have some river sand apparently triple washed but i can make that quadruple, although i already added the alfalfa bro


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 20, 2014)

One heads up ! Only buy earthed submersible pumps ! Apparently illegal and its dangerous to buy unearthed pumps


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 20, 2014)

Round two for this batch of soil. C-99 calling this bucket home


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## CannaBare (Dec 20, 2014)

Does anyone run very large pots with blumats in them? I found my perfect soil mix so now I want to make a 35 gallon no-till soil bed on wheels to decrease compaction and back issues. It is going to be 17.5 inches deep so I was considering buying some maxi's to pair with a regular sized blumat in each pot, along with distributors.

I doubt I would need the blumats but I just love how happy my plants always look.

So anyway, any experiences with blumats in 18 inch pots?


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 21, 2014)

Hey guys, got an update here, im on week 1 of flowering with the 600w hps, btw Don i also added a closeup picture of my irrigation ill add more pics tomorrow, as u can see i just culled the male : / it was almost as tall as the church and luckily didnt pop open its flowers, as for the plant on the back left i have no idea what it is, has a very distinctive smell but cannot describe it, im planning on planting some cheese seeds although not sure how well its going to work seeing as they will have to flower from seed. Peace & Respect.


----------



## bicit (Dec 21, 2014)

Has anyone on here tried either of the cover crop blends from buildasoil?


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 21, 2014)

bicit said:


> Has anyone on here tried either of the cover crop blends from buildasoil?


Greengenes has.............it's in his thread


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 22, 2014)

So my buddy just gave me a sensi super skunk fem , apparently 45-50 days flowering, i was thinking of leaving it outdoors for now as the days are getting longer then bringing it in lets say in 2 weeks ? Just not sure what type of growth to expect when it goes into the flowering room though! Peace : )


----------



## a senile fungus (Dec 22, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Mag def?? Would love some input from those whose frequent this thread. Here's a few pics of the leaves then of the whole plant, for 3 plants...
> 
> Plant 1
> View attachment 3317442
> ...


If I quote this here will the pics pop up? Let's see! 

No answer on the other thread yet, but would like to know soon... I'm thinking mag def.


----------



## CannaBare (Dec 22, 2014)

First two look like calcium to me, last one magnesium. I would hit them with a tbsp of gypsum and a tbsp of rock dust. If your really brave water mix 1 cup of urine to 1 gallon water. Good stuff. Ashes work too.


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 22, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> First two look like calcium to me, last one magnesium. I would hit them with a tbsp of gypsum and a tbsp of rock dust. If your really brave water mix 1 cup of urine to 1 gallon water. Good stuff. Ashes work too.


I've yet to use urine on my ladies, but my house plants get a little bit of a 1:20 mix if they need some N. It works well, just make sure you're not taking a bunch of medicines or eating shitty food, that stuff shows up in large amounts in our urine. 
My girlfriend just looks at me and shakes her head when I water them with it. She says if I start watering the ladies with it she won't touch it. More for me


----------



## Mad Hamish (Dec 22, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> So my buddy just gave me a sensi super skunk fem , apparently 45-50 days flowering, i was thinking of leaving it outdoors for now as the days are getting longer then bringing it in lets say in 2 weeks ? Just not sure what type of growth to expect when it goes into the flowering room though! Peace : )


This is guaranteed to ringnpests inside mate, you will do better flowering it straight from seed. When you do this ot will veg for up to three weeks before flowering anyway, seen some pretty big ladies done this way.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 22, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> This is guaranteed to ringnpests inside mate, you will do better flowering it straight from seed. When you do this ot will veg for up to three weeks before flowering anyway, seen some pretty big ladies done this way.


Thank you for the message bro ! hope you have been well, ive currently got the seed germinating in a smaller pot not sure how wise that is, would it be better just germinating it in the bigger pot ? Or maybe better in the smaller one for now so its roots can stretch when its transplanted ? I havent taken it outdoors but it is sitting on my window sill which receives alot of sun. Much Respect. Peace !


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Dec 22, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> This is guaranteed to ringnpests inside mate, you will do better flowering it straight from seed. When you do this ot will veg for up to three weeks before flowering anyway, seen some pretty big ladies done this way.


I can verify this. My scotts ogs ladies didn't show sex under 12/12 until at least day 20. They all germinated ~Nov 1st and here they are now. All ~2 feet of them. And this was only with a 150 watt hps.
Honestly though unless you're running a perpetual room or are growing sativas, 12 / 12 from seed is kind of useless as they'll stretch until they start to build calyx bulk in mid flower. So for the first 20 days / until sex shows, imo, 18/6 will provide the best growth. Like tighter nodes, shorter height, etc.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Dec 22, 2014)

The most impressive yields I ever saw was this guy cb420 on the Gage forums. Did a lot of 12/12 from seed, got these huge fat solid colas on branchy plants. He reckomed the teick was in big pots, and he forced branching by DEFOLIATING the top node, not topping, but removing the fans as the pop out and lay flat. Been wanting to do it myself but I keep thinking 'what if it is THE keeper in that bean?' So I never do lol


----------



## Mad Hamish (Dec 22, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you for the message bro ! hope you have been well, ive currently got the seed germinating in a smaller pot not sure how wise that is, would it be better just germinating it in the bigger pot ? Or maybe better in the smaller one for now so its roots can stretch when its transplanted ? I havent taken it outdoors but it is sitting on my window sill which receives alot of sun. Much Respect. Peace !


Ooooh I will go look that up for you I can't remember if fellas start in the big pots but I think so...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Dec 22, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> The most impressive yields I ever saw was this guy cb420 on the Gage forums. Did a lot of 12/12 from seed, got these huge fat solid colas on branchy plants. He reckomed the teick was in big pots, and he forced branching by DEFOLIATING the top node, not topping, but removing the fans as the pop out and lay flat. Been wanting to do it myself but I keep thinking 'what if it is THE keeper in that bean?' So I never do lol


I actually did a defoliation experiment on my last batch of Scotts ogs and if you continually strip the fan leaves off of the main tip you will get so many freaking branches. I used cfls to keep the nodes tight and after about a month of vegging while stripping fan leaves and training, I had at least ten main branches within 6inches of growth on the main stem. It actually got to the point where I had to take out branches because it was too crowded to grow properly. This would be a really cool technique to use with a scrog setup


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Dec 22, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> If I quote this here will the pics pop up? Let's see!
> 
> No answer on the other thread yet, but would like to know soon... I'm thinking mag def.


What's your water source== tap/well/RO???? ppms/ec play a big role in cal/mag lock or def


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 22, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've yet to use urine on my ladies, but my house plants get a little bit of a 1:20 mix if they need some N. It works well, just make sure you're not taking a bunch of medicines or eating shitty food, that stuff shows up in large amounts in our urine.
> My girlfriend just looks at me and shakes her head when I water them with it. She says if I start watering the ladies with it she won't touch it. More for me


Hahaha, nice


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 22, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I actually did a defoliation experiment on my last batch of Scotts ogs and if you continually strip the fan leaves off of the main tip you will get so many freaking branches. I used cfls to keep the nodes tight and after about a month of vegging while stripping fan leaves and training, I had at least ten main branches within 6inches of growth on the main stem. It actually got to the point where I had to take out branches because it was too crowded to grow properly. This would be a really cool technique to use with a scrog setup


Got this strain with mad branches but the fan leaves block light like crazy. This sounds like an interesting path for her clones.. Big up!


----------



## earthling420 (Dec 22, 2014)

what would yall reccomend for a fabric pot size with a 2x2.5x7. I only have 1plant in there. Oh and of course in organic soil


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## goodjoint (Dec 22, 2014)

I've always been one to use fabric pots (5 gallon is the largest I've used), but I have these 27 gallon heavy duty plastic containers that I'm thinking about making into No-Til planters. I plan on drilling several drainage holes on the bottom.

My question... is there any major advantage to using fabric pots vs. containers like these? Should I just spend the money on a large fabric pot or would these 27 gallon storage containers work just fine? They would fit my growing area perfectly and are super sturdy. And on another thought... I am kind of getting a bit tired of how flimsy the fabric pots can be.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 22, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> I've always been one to use fabric pots (5 gallon is the largest I've used), but I have these 27 gallon heavy duty plastic containers that I'm thinking about making into No-Til planters. I plan on drilling several drainage holes on the bottom.
> 
> My question... is there any major advantage to using fabric pots vs. containers like these? Should I just spend the money on a large fabric pot or would these 27 gallon storage containers work just fine? They would fit my growing area perfectly and are super sturdy. And on another thought... I am kind of getting a bit tired of how flimsy the fabric pots can be.




I think you'd be better off if you drilled multiple holes (say 2") at the bottom of that container then lined the inside with landscaping fabric.

That way you'd have the stability of your plastic container and also the breath ability and hopefully root pruning of the fabric.

Yeah?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Dec 22, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> I've always been one to use fabric pots (5 gallon is the largest I've used), but I have these 27 gallon heavy duty plastic containers that I'm thinking about making into No-Til planters. I plan on drilling several drainage holes on the bottom.
> 
> My question... is there any major advantage to using fabric pots vs. containers like these? Should I just spend the money on a large fabric pot or would these 27 gallon storage containers work just fine? They would fit my growing area perfectly and are super sturdy. And on another thought... I am kind of getting a bit tired of how flimsy the fabric pots can be.


I'm a proponent of using what you have on hand. You could absolutely use those containers, maybe slightly modified, and kick some serious ass. 




a senile fungus said:


> I think you'd be better off if you drilled multiple holes (say 2") at the bottom of that container then lined the inside with landscaping fabric.
> 
> That way you'd have the stability of your plastic container and also the breath ability and hopefully root pruning of the fabric.
> 
> Yeah?


^great idea^ ...gives you the best of both worlds and is practically free.


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## bicit (Dec 22, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Greengenes has.............it's in his thread


Are you sure it was Greengenes? His most recent posts don't seem to use anything as far as a cover crop or mulch. The search engine isn't really turning anything up either. Google results are all over the board and usually just end up pointing me back to buildasoil... I wish they hadn't taken away the discussion results filter. 

He has three large threads, could you narrow it down a bit? Lots of good info about lights, but that's not what's needed right at the moment.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 22, 2014)

bicit said:


> Has anyone on here tried either of the cover crop blends from buildasoil?


Yes


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## bicit (Dec 22, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yes


I guess I should have clarified. Who? How were the results? Worthwhile?


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> First two look like calcium to me, last one magnesium. I would hit them with a tbsp of gypsum and a tbsp of rock dust. If your really brave water mix 1 cup of urine to 1 gallon water. Good stuff. Ashes work too.


Thanks!

I added in bone meal and oyster shell meal and Epsom salts and sulpomag and a bunch of rock dusts and hardwood charcoal to my soil mix when I made it. I added other stuff too obviously...

I'm wondering if maybe my soil isn't as balanced as I thought it was?




I have extra glacial rock dust and DE, think that'll do it?

And how much?




Also I have Epsom salts too and I know there's no cal in there but I remember reading somewhere that cal mag and sulfur and maybe fe too are all closely linked and straying from certain ratios of these elements can throw things out of whack. I think it was cal lockout caused by sulfur def or something like that and it was often misdiagnosed but ironically fixed by adding Epsom salts which have sulfur in them... I dunno maybe I'm rambling...

Other than those little spots and leaves everything looks good to me over here...

I have some cal-mag, calimagic, but its not organic and I'm thinking I'd like to solve this another way if possible. 

So maybe topdress with the rockdust and DE? Or mix in water and water them in?

Sorry guys I'm new to organics and like to ask questions and ramble sometimes...


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## Bueno Time (Dec 23, 2014)

bicit said:


> I guess I should have clarified. Who? How were the results? Worthwhile?


I havent used their blend only tried a little packet of white clover and I liked the results so next is a cover crop blend for me.

From my looking around a little I think that if your ordering a build-a-box kit of amendments from BAS then getting a few cups of cover crop blend wouldnt be a bad purchase @ ~$1 shipped per cup for the various amendments and cover crop blend. However if your just buying the cover crop separate its pretty pricey per lb from BAS, a cheaper and I think probably better cover crop mix with a high nitrogen fixing rate is at groworganic.

I plan to order a buildabox from BAS so I might just get a couple cups of cover crop blend from them but if I dont do that I was going to buy the organic premium soil builder mix from groworganic its $2.19/lb or less in bulk with reasonable shipping (cheaper with shipping for 1lb than BAS and better blend it seems). Groworganic blend is supposed to fix up to 290lb/acre of nitrogen and up to 45tons/acre of organic matter its a blend of "Formulation may vary based on availability. Currently the mix contains: Bell Beans, BioMaster Peas, Frostmaster Peas, Purple Vetch, Hairy Vetch, Common Vetch and Cayuse Oats".

http://www.groworganic.com/organic-soil-builder-mix-raw-lb.html

That is a much different mix than BAS uses but i read a little about vetch and thats good stuff. Maybe someone else can comment on which blend would be better but that blend from groworganic seems promising and they have a whole bunch of other cover crops and other seeds there.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> The most impressive yields I ever saw was this guy cb420 on the Gage forums. Did a lot of 12/12 from seed, got these huge fat solid colas on branchy plants. He reckomed the teick was in big pots, and he forced branching by DEFOLIATING the top node, not topping, but removing the fans as the pop out and lay flat. Been wanting to do it myself but I keep thinking 'what if it is THE keeper in that bean?' So I never do lol


Sounds like a awesome plan bro : ) No harm in trying it seeing as i need some rapid branch growth with this one, i planted two other beans along with this sensi super skunk fem, just thinking what type of root space the 12 12 plant will take cause if i get another fem i could 12 / 12 two plants. Peace ! : )


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## goodjoint (Dec 23, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> I think you'd be better off if you drilled multiple holes (say 2") at the bottom of that container then lined the inside with landscaping fabric.
> 
> That way you'd have the stability of your plastic container and also the breath ability and hopefully root pruning of the fabric.
> 
> Yeah?


Good idea!!
Would it be worthwhile to drill holes on the sides like an airpot, or just on the bottom?


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

goodjoint said:


> Good idea!!
> Would it be worthwhile to drill holes on the sides like an airpot, or just on the bottom?


Maybe you could put holes all over the whole bin, but don't weaken it too much... I think two inch is a good size, what do you guys think?

We know the fabric holds dirt back and let's air in.

The holes at the bottom would double as drain holes. I know those crates get air circulation underneath depending on how they're molded, so maybe fashion open areas while still maintaining structural integrity. Then lay down the fabric and pour some dirt in and let er rip. It'll be a hybrid between the two and really nothing can go wrong. Right?


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

Hahaha while you're at it you may as well just make open wooden troughs and line with fabric and fill with dirt... I was thinking about doing that but I need to be in a more permanent space to make that happen. In my dreams...

Or a huge plot, like 10'x10' or even bigger and maybe 2ft deep, the ultimate no till. I would grow companion crops and top dress like a mofo


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## goodjoint (Dec 23, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Maybe you could put holes all over the whole bin, but don't weaken it too much... I think two inch is a good size, what do you guys think?
> 
> We know the fabric holds dirt back and let's air in.
> 
> The holes at the bottom would double as drain holes. I know those crates get air circulation underneath depending on how they're molded, so maybe fashion open areas while still maintaining structural integrity. Then lay down the fabric and pour some dirt in and let er rip. It'll be a hybrid between the two and really nothing can go wrong. Right?


I like the sound of it. Looks like I have a project on my hands!
You rock!!


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

Lol I just realized that I bought two of those containers yesterday to put my extra soil in.

I thought they were a good LxWxH for watering and turning over the soil and have them both around half filled.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I actually did a defoliation experiment on my last batch of Scotts ogs and if you continually strip the fan leaves off of the main tip you will get so many freaking branches. I used cfls to keep the nodes tight and after about a month of vegging while stripping fan leaves and training, I had at least ten main branches within 6inches of growth on the main stem. It actually got to the point where I had to take out branches because it was too crowded to grow properly. This would be a really cool technique to use with a scrog setup


I have used this technique you describe to force bean pole structure plants into nice bushes. Did you also notice a nitrogen deficiency in the nodes where the leaf was cut for a week or so? Because I not only noticed that, but picked up that the branches were not all thick and solid like you would expect from auxins and I still had to pinch a bit to get them nice and fat so they could support bud. Made me think it os a great way to slow down any node if you need to but definitely does stress the plant a little so not for iffy types. I wouldn't do it with an OG cross for example. Overall very nifty trick for the gardener that considers a low profile an advantage.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you for the message bro ! hope you have been well, ive currently got the seed germinating in a smaller pot not sure how wise that is, would it be better just germinating it in the bigger pot ? Or maybe better in the smaller one for now so its roots can stretch when its transplanted ? I havent taken it outdoors but it is sitting on my window sill which receives alot of sun. Much Respect. Peace !


looks like straight in the pot mate, just be very very very careful to not over water her needs are going to be waaaaaaaay less than the bigger ladies.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Sounds like a awesome plan bro : ) No harm in trying it seeing as i need some rapid branch growth with this one, i planted two other beans along with this sensi super skunk fem, just thinking what type of root space the 12 12 plant will take cause if i get another fem i could 12 / 12 two plants. Peace ! : )


then log in to www.gagegreen.org/forum and do a search for threads by cb420 and watch what he does. A master at this style, it will be worth every minute of your time (and show you some insane genetics kicking asssss)EDIT: RIU user Calicat has vast experience with 12/12 from seed runs. He is a good guy to talk to, very helpful has upped my game a few times. He does small plants in small pots and lots of them at a time for 12/12 runs, it is another way to go at it.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> looks like straight in the pot mate, just be very very very careful to not over water her needs are going to be waaaaaaaay less than the bigger ladies.





Mad Hamish said:


> then log in to www.gagegreen.org/forum and do a search for threads by cb420 and watch what he does. A master at this style, it will be worth every minute of your time (and show you some insane genetics kicking asssss)EDIT: RIU user Calicat has vast experience with 12/12 from seed runs. He is a good guy to talk to, very helpful has upped my game a few times. He does small plants in small pots and lots of them at a time for 12/12 runs, it is another way to go at it.


Thank you bro, i just planted the seed in the small pot last night, you rate its cool to dig out and replant ? WIll make sure she gets way less than the big plants, will definitely log in to gagegreen bro, from the sounds of it the guy has some insane tips ! I just bought a 12 000 BTU portable aircon its kicking nicely ! couldnt take the heat no more man you were 100% right my ladies were sitting at 31-33.5 c which was baking me and them ! Peace bro ! Much respect & thank you once again for your help. much appreciated brother.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 23, 2014)

bicit said:


> I guess I should have clarified. Who? How were the results? Worthwhile?


Yes, it works great. You could put together something cheaper yourself, but it's just fine otherwise


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you bro, i just planted the seed in the small pot last night, you rate its cool to dig out and replant ? WIll make sure she gets way less than the big plants, will definitely log in to gagegreen bro, from the sounds of it the guy has some insane tips ! I just bought a 12 000 BTU portable aircon its kicking nicely ! couldnt take the heat no more man you were 100% right my ladies were sitting at 31-33.5 c which was baking me and them ! Peace bro ! Much respect & thank you once again for your help. much appreciated brother.


If you pre soaked then leave it as is, if it was fresh and unpopped then digging it up will be fine, but personally I would just wait fourteen days after germing then transplant with great care. Yup thank gods for AC. I made an outflow for my portable, bastards switch off soon on a humid day. Upgrading to a badass ducted aircon next year


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## CannaBare (Dec 23, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I added in bone meal and oyster shell meal and Epsom salts and sulpomag and a bunch of rock dusts and hardwood charcoal to my soil mix when I made it. I added other stuff too obviously...
> 
> ...


After reading this I can't be sure why your plants are experiencing a deficiency. It could come down to the soil not being alive or sulfur as you say. I have never considered how balanced my soil was when I started organics. I ran with cootz recipe and after initially making the soil, I only topdress if I see the start of a deficiency (usually calcium, and I just topdress with gypsum). I topdress at 1 tbsp per 5 gallons because I feel less is more and I can always add more later, and If I see an abundance (rarely, mostly nitrogen) I can switch to a different organic substance.

Based on my growing style I would still go with the rockdust and gypsum. I'm not sure why you are thinking of adding DE? care to share? 

I have never experienced a sulfur abundance but I have had a deficiency once (no more thanks to gypsum ). I only have alfalfa, kelp. neem, crab, and gypsum/rockdust in my grow room arsenal. Get rid of the epsom and cal-mag, Bad juju lol


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## CannaBare (Dec 23, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Hahaha while you're at it you may as well just make open wooden troughs and line with fabric and fill with dirt... I was thinking about doing that but I need to be in a more permanent space to make that happen. In my dreams...
> 
> Or a huge plot, like 10'x10' or even bigger and maybe 2ft deep, the ultimate no till. I would grow companion crops and top dress like a mofo


I'm building 35 gallons on wheels as we speak. I'm hoping to keep down compaction and give the soil enough volume to be completely alive and thriving. If I may say to all who grow in fabric pots, It is the future! My back feels amazing hahaha


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

CannaBare said:


> After reading this I can't be sure why your plants are experiencing a deficiency. It could come down to the soil not being alive or sulfur as you say. I have never considered how balanced my soil was when I started organics. I ran with cootz recipe and after initially making the soil, I only topdress if I see the start of a deficiency (usually calcium, and I just topdress with gypsum). I topdress at 1 tbsp per 5 gallons because I feel less is more and I can always add more later, and If I see an abundance (rarely, mostly nitrogen) I can switch to a different organic substance.
> 
> Based on my growing style I would still go with the rockdust and gypsum. I'm not sure why you are thinking of adding DE? care to share?
> 
> I have never experienced a sulfur abundance but I have had a deficiency once (no more thanks to gypsum ). I only have alfalfa, kelp. neem, crab, and gypsum/rockdust in my grow room arsenal. Get rid of the epsom and cal-mag, Bad juju lol



I was under the impression that DE contained various trace minerals, cal mag phos fe zinc, but DE is mostly silica.

Maybe I'll see about picking up some gypsum.



Thank you!


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Thanks!
> 
> I added in bone meal and oyster shell meal and Epsom salts and sulpomag and a bunch of rock dusts and hardwood charcoal to my soil mix when I made it. I added other stuff too obviously...
> 
> ...


First thing I would do, seeing as this seems like a well prepared soil, is see what effect a simple nutrient cycling tea will have. Even more simple is just top dress with a thick layer of EWC. I have had this a few times that plants show 'deficiency' but then just pull right as they get their micro herd where they want it. I fond EWC and the good old nutrient cycling tea speeds things up here a whole stack. A littlemcalmag in the watwr after top dressing won't hurt, you need verrrrry little though I go for quarter recommended dose and it has always worked just fine.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> First thing I would do, seeing as this seems like a well prepared soil, is see what effect a simple nutrient cycling tea will have. Even more simple is just top dress with a thick layer of EWC. I have had this a few times that plants show 'deficiency' but then just pull right as they get their micro herd where they want it. I fond EWC and the good old nutrient cycling tea speeds things up here a whole stack. A littlemcalmag in the watwr after top dressing won't hurt, you need verrrrry little though I go for quarter recommended dose and it has always worked just fine.



That's one thing I haven't done, is teas.

I was wondering when the suggestion would be made, and I will look into obtaining more EWC to make some bubbly goodness...

So far I've only top dressed and watered. While the soil was cooking there was a couple days where it dried out and I couldn't get to it to water quickly enough so maybe that affected the microherd more than I thought? Shoot maybe they're all dead in there :'(


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> That's one thing I haven't done, is teas.
> 
> I was wondering when the suggestion would be made, and I will look into obtaining more EWC to make some bubbly goodness...
> 
> So far I've only top dressed and watered. While the soil was cooking there was a couple days where it dried out and I couldn't get to it to water quickly enough so maybe that affected the microherd more than I thought? Shoot maybe they're all dead in there :'(


 Hahaha no highly unlikely they are all dead. Come to think of it it sounds like you have a coco based soil?... If so, then you are going to have all sorts of lock out unless you make some nutes available that stuff has quite a temper if I can put it like that. In the case of a coco base then your tea will need one cup EWC, two tablespoons blackstrap molasses, one quarter dose calmag per gallon and that should do it. Coco tends to lock out nitrogen and then go ape far as Ph goes too, so around thirty minutes BEFORE hitting pots with the tea, feed a half strength fish hydrolysate solution. If in flower, you need to sprinkle a little Bokashi before this or your bud will taste pretty heavy, fish is great if you remember the bokashi or em1 otherwise it adds poopy taste. Your tea you bubble for 24 to 48 hours, if it foams up add a drop of canola or olive oil to stop it foaming up...


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Hahaha no highly unlikely they are all dead. Come to think of it it sounds like you have a coco based soil?... If so, then you are going to have all sorts of lock out unless you make some nutes available that stuff has quite a temper if I can put it like that. In the case of a coco base then your tea will need one cup EWC, two tablespoons blackstrap molasses, one quarter dose calmag per gallon and that should do it. Coco tends to lock out nitrogen and then go ape far as Ph goes too, so around thirty minutes BEFORE hitting pots with the tea, feed a half strength fish hydrolysate solution. If in flower, you need to sprinkle a little Bokashi before this or your bud will taste pretty heavy, fish is great if you remember the bokashi or em1 otherwise it adds poopy taste. Your tea you bubble for 24 to 48 hours, if it foams up add a drop of canola or olive oil to stop it foaming up...


Mine is peat based, essentially cootz's mix

Wow that post is incredibly informative. But no mine isn't coco


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 23, 2014)

bicit said:


> Are you sure it was Greengenes? His most recent posts don't seem to use anything as far as a cover crop or mulch. The search engine isn't really turning anything up either. Google results are all over the board and usually just end up pointing me back to buildasoil... I wish they hadn't taken away the discussion results filter.
> 
> He has three large threads, could you narrow it down a bit? Lots of good info about lights, but that's not what's needed right at the moment.



You got it brother

https://www.rollitup.org/t/greengenes-garden.839682/page-17


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> If you pre soaked then leave it as is, if it was fresh and unpopped then digging it up will be fine, but personally I would just wait fourteen days after germing then transplant with great care. Yup thank gods for AC. I made an outflow for my portable, bastards switch off soon on a humid day. Upgrading to a badass ducted aircon next year


Sweet bro, i didnt presoak but just planted it and soaked the soil on top a bit, guess ill just leave it as is then. While installing the portable ac i hit both other pots on the window sill and lost the beans, not sure if i should replant more though but i doubt there would be enough space for them seeing as the other plants will get pretty massive seeing as they in week one of flower ?

Bro the ac is a winner, cant really go without one especially at this time of the year, how do you temps stay in winter if i may ask bro ? Peace & Respect


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> First thing I would do, seeing as this seems like a well prepared soil, is see what effect a simple nutrient cycling tea will have. Even more simple is just top dress with a thick layer of EWC. I have had this a few times that plants show 'deficiency' but then just pull right as they get their micro herd where they want it. I fond EWC and the good old nutrient cycling tea speeds things up here a whole stack. A littlemcalmag in the watwr after top dressing won't hurt, you need verrrrry little though I go for quarter recommended dose and it has always worked just fine.


I second this. Deficiencies are hard to pin down. It could be any number of things, including (and very likely) ph. I no longer pretend to be smarter than the plant and the microbes that work in unison with it. Top dress some EWC and let the micro herd figure it out


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> I have used this technique you describe to force bean pole structure plants into nice bushes. Did you also notice a nitrogen deficiency in the nodes where the leaf was cut for a week or so? Because I not only noticed that, but picked up that the branches were not all thick and solid like you would expect from auxins and I still had to pinch a bit to get them nice and fat so they could support bud. Made me think it os a great way to slow down any node if you need to but definitely does stress the plant a little so not for iffy types. I wouldn't do it with an OG cross for example. Overall very nifty trick for the gardener that considers a low profile an advantage.


I did actually, I got a bit of a Cal mag deficiency too. I would bet that if I didn't pinch and roll the trunk all the way to the tip almost every so often it wouldn't have been thick at all. But this was before I used super soil, or even all organics. So there's that too


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I did actually, I got a bit of a Cal mag deficiency too. I would bet that if I didn't pinch and roll the trunk all the way to the tip almost every so often it wouldn't have been thick at all. But this was before I used super soil, or even all organics. So there's that too


Yes, also got the Mg deficiency or at least something that looks like it but cleared up a lot better. It was in a relatively hot mix I had to mix more mildly recently for the Indies they do tend to be N sensitive and I figured the hybrids will be fine with teas and so far I haven't even fed teas and all is rocking, so I am going on a limb and saying our observations are definitely relative to the technique and not our substrate. Very cool to verify these findings with somebody on the other side of the planet, very cool indeed


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Sweet bro, i didnt presoak but just planted it and soaked the soil on top a bit, guess ill just leave it as is then. While installing the portable ac i hit both other pots on the window sill and lost the beans, not sure if i should replant more though but i doubt there would be enough space for them seeing as the other plants will get pretty massive seeing as they in week one of flower ?
> 
> Bro the ac is a winner, cant really go without one especially at this time of the year, how do you temps stay in winter if i may ask bro ? Peace & Respect


OK so it runs like this: Jan and Feb is like Armageddon. Your AC is gonna work its ass off brother. March is KILLER good, total equilibrium is easy, set and forget with the portable, cool rhythm, April and May are also very very cool no AC no heating nothing as long as your vents are jacked, June to September you are going to have to look into heating at times, even flowering at night it can get down to like 16 degrees in the flower room. Oct to December you know how it goes. All of this bearing in mind I flower at night, and I use a lung room with my tents inside and I treat the room not the tents.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 23, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> OK so it runs like this: Jan and Feb is like Armageddon. Your AC is gonna work its ass off brother. March is KILLER good, total equilibrium is easy, set and forget with the portable, cool rhythm, April and May are also very very cool no AC no heating nothing as long as your vents are jacked, June to September you are going to have to look into heating at times, even flowering at night it can get down to like 16 degrees in the flower room. Oct to December you know how it goes. All of this bearing in mind I flower at night, and I use a lung room with my tents inside and I treat the room not the tents.


Bro armageddon is a good way to describe it, march to may growing indoor along with outdoor, must be lovely ! I can imagine heating would be needed in June, it gets seriously cold. Im also flowering at night now 9pm to 9am, whats your schedule like bro ?


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## a senile fungus (Dec 23, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> What's your water source== tap/well/RO???? ppms/ec play a big role in cal/mag lock or def


I totally missed this post earlier, sorry about that and thank you for your input.

It's store bought drinking water in three gallon jugs. It says micron filtering and ozonation were performed on the water.

So maybe I should try tap water? Which I believe is around 7.7pH and a couple hundred ppms? Or half and half each water source?



@ everyone 
I don't have any EWC right now but would composted horse manure work? I could dig into the pile where it's nice and warm...

So maybe topdress with a spoon or two of rock dusts and DE and compost? Then I think I'll give half of the plants the same water I have been and I'll give the other half tap water and see how that goes...

How does that sound? I know a guy who may have EWC for me, but its the holidays and I don't wanna bother him.


Thanks for the help everyone!


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## foreverflyhi (Dec 23, 2014)

Did some one Say companion crops? helps retain moisture, cool little eco system right before your eyes...


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## ODanksta (Dec 23, 2014)

What up guys, I forget about this thread. I decided to try no till out for myself. And let me tell y'all, It was the smartest fucking move I have ever done in my garden..


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 23, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Bro armageddon is a good way to describe it, march to may growing indoor along with outdoor, must be lovely ! I can imagine heating would be needed in June, it gets seriously cold. Im also flowering at night now 9pm to 9am, whats your schedule like bro ?


an hour sooner than yours, that way I miss that early heat build up. I found once it rises nit much can stop it so it is essential to get temps down before 8 over here. No outdoor for me this year brother, just didn't work out...


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 24, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> an hour sooner than yours, that way I miss that early heat build up. I found once it rises nit much can stop it so it is essential to get temps down before 8 over here. No outdoor for me this year brother, just didn't work out...


I do indeed get that 8-9pm heat build up, shoots up like a degree or two, hope the ladies will be fine with it cause straight after the lights go off its like a 3-4 degree drop, i also didnt do the outdoor mission this year, hopefully next year brother ! here is the pic of the 3 ladies flowering, im stressed up on space because im scared i dont use it all properly & i really need to try my best to use every little space to maximize yield as much as i can, i vegged those plants all 6-8 weeks so if i leave them free as can be will they stretch their wings and lay on the sides of the tent ? : ) Much respect bro


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 24, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I do indeed get that 8-9pm heat build up, shoots up like a degree or two, hope the ladies will be fine with it cause straight after the lights go off its like a 3-4 degree drop, i also didnt do the outdoor mission this year, hopefully next year brother ! here is the pic of the 3 ladies flowering, im stressed up on space because im scared i dont use it all properly & i really need to try my best to use every little space to maximize yield as much as i can, i vegged those plants all 6-8 weeks so if i leave them free as can be will they stretch their wings and lay on the sides of the tent ? : ) Much respect bro


I don't want to comment on the size they will reach, odds are each one will be vastly different at the end anyway. This is the reason I clone and keep mothers, so i can work with predictable results. It will take a while to get to know your genetics, but trust me the last thing you want to do is pack your space too tight. You will get more problems not more bud. Between your pots and your lamp is where you Max out on yield, so it is better to look at it relative to lumens and liters of substrate than plant numbers. Yield will become less important soon enough, nothing will top your home grown so that makes up for a lot seeing as your bud will be worth top dollar. So you gain massively as long as you dont need to buy and those days are over for you brother. The 3 degree drop sounds normal, but also sounds like you are not quite venting your lamps heat. Fiddle with your circulation a little, make sure you have up draught to your vent this is not always a given sometimes you get hot air going down to the ladies, thermal dynamics are tricky. Aerodynamics also not for fifth graders. Not a point to stress about too much but a little tweak you can look into. It is totally possible to vemt out all your lamps heat.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 24, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> I don't want to comment on the size they will reach, odds are each one will be vastly different at the end anyway. This is the reason I clone and keep mothers, so i can work with predictable results. It will take a while to get to know your genetics, but trust me the last thing you want to do is pack your space too tight. You will get more problems not more bud. Between your pots and your lamp is where you Max out on yield, so it is better to look at it relative to lumens and liters of substrate than plant numbers. Yield will become less important soon enough, nothing will top your home grown so that makes up for a lot seeing as your bud will be worth top dollar. So you gain massively as long as you dont need to buy and those days are over for you brother. The 3 degree drop sounds normal, but also sounds like you are not quite venting your lamps heat. Fiddle with your circulation a little, make sure you have up draught to your vent this is not always a given sometimes you get hot air going down to the ladies, thermal dynamics are tricky. Aerodynamics also not for fifth graders. Not a point to stress about too much but a little tweak you can look into. It is totally possible to vemt out all your lamps heat.


Thank you bro, much appreciated, i see where you coming from, i worked out while growing all these diff strains how much easier it would be with a few clones, as for the space i take it if they not too huge more light can obviously penetrate around the plant ? 600w with about a 15-20 litre pot, what size pots do you run brother ? Bro i can only imagine the taste & high its probably going to be one bong and im done for the day ! haha

Bro i will be honest, my vent is about 30 cm from my window which is dumb but paranoia took the best of me at that time, atleast now if i get questioned about a pipe out my window i can just say its the AC, so what i was thinking of doing is running my grow room vent & AC vent into a T piece then letting the T piece out the window,also why i was asking about yield and size is because ive almost drained all my money once again, just hoping i can get a decent amount to make up for all the $ that went into this. On the other hand thank you once again for your help brother. Respect


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Dec 24, 2014)

Managed to find those two beans i lost when i dropped the pots lol ! i was gently scratching through the mix and i found them both germinating like 6 inches deep ! I was thinking of putting two smaller pots beside the church but i dont know how well my no till soil will do in about half a gallon ?

Would you think its cool to keep the seedlings in the tent while the lights are on and then on my windowsill when the lights are out during the day ? Already logged in to gage though will commence the searching !


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 24, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> I totally missed this post earlier, sorry about that and thank you for your input.
> 
> It's store bought drinking water in three gallon jugs. It says micron filtering and ozonation were performed on the water.
> 
> ...


Yeah most likely a cal/mag def(s) with that source........tea/topdress will fix it(egg/shrimp/crab/oyster shell/gypsum/etc.)

If you can continue to afford buying water, do it. Unless you know for certain your municipality isn't using chloramines(ammonia reeks havoc on beni bacs; won't off-gas either) and your ppms are below 300, i wouldn't use it with LOS imo.


good luck and happy holidays


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## a senile fungus (Dec 24, 2014)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Yeah most likely a cal/mag def(s) with that source........tea/topdress will fix it(egg/shrimp/crab/oyster shell/gypsum/etc.)
> 
> If you can continue to afford buying water, do it. Unless you know for certain your municipality isn't using chloramines(ammonia reeks havoc on beni bacs; won't off-gas either) and your ppms are below 300, i wouldn't use it with LOS imo.
> 
> ...



Thank you very much!

I'll get on the municipal website and check out a water analysis. I'm imagining they use chloramine, hopefully not though...

Thanks again! I'll update every so often with pics!

Thanks guys!


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## thegreencage93 (Dec 24, 2014)

So I know I'm new but have done lots of research hello fellas so I do have a question about fermentated extracts I was reading somewhere now i can't find it but the post was saying when using lacto b it can do it's job to well because it breaks things down on a molecular level so longs chains of elements that are in your perferred item you are ferments so example like getting single elements like calcium, potassium, nitrogen ect. It is perfect for but if your going after auxins, tricantinol, things that are special chains of elementsts lacto be is not perfered that's kind of what makes bokashi wonderful because even tho things still look the same when you dump out the bucket they are molecularly shattered that's why they dissapear so quickly when burried

So what do the masters have to say? Sorry I have lurked this thread for a while but instead of throwing out a bunch of question just did the research my self


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 24, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you bro, much appreciated, i see where you coming from, i worked out while growing all these diff strains how much easier it would be with a few clones, as for the space i take it if they not too huge more light can obviously penetrate around the plant ? 600w with about a 15-20 litre pot, what size pots do you run brother ? Bro i can only imagine the taste & high its probably going to be one bong and im done for the day ! haha
> 
> Bro i will be honest, my vent is about 30 cm from my window which is dumb but paranoia took the best of me at that time, atleast now if i get questioned about a pipe out my window i can just say its the AC, so what i was thinking of doing is running my grow room vent & AC vent into a T piece then letting the T piece out the window,also why i was asking about yield and size is because ive almost drained all my money once again, just hoping i can get a decent amount to make up for all the $ that went into this. On the other hand thank you once again for your help brother. Respect


well from where I am sitting it looks like around 50 to 80 grams per lady for this run bro, which is pretty good as long as you kick this thing perpetually. Your lamp seems pretty high, watch temps and see if you can drop it a tad. My estimate is on minimums to be clear. If money and time get tight I will drop you some cuts as long as you pay for the courier. Don't stress you are always sorted now bro.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 24, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Managed to find those two beans i lost when i dropped the pots lol ! i was gently scratching through the mix and i found them both germinating like 6 inches deep ! I was thinking of putting two smaller pots beside the church but i dont know how well my no till soil will do in about half a gallon ?
> 
> Would you think its cool to keep the seedlings in the tent while the lights are on and then on my windowsill when the lights are out during the day ? Already logged in to gage though will commence the searching !


 Ten liters minimum pot size, under that they just break your heart, so 3 gal is minimum for flower unless you are flowering clones straight no veg or going straight 12/12 but even there under 3 gal is pointless as the plant will take a similar amount of room as something in a twenty liter. Under 3 gal or ten to twelve liters you get very bad expression of potential.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 24, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Thank you very much!
> 
> I'll get on the municipal website and check out a water analysis. I'm imagining they use chloramine, hopefully not though...
> 
> ...


Hey Senile...

I bought one of these a year or so ago and it works like a charm. Five stage filter, removes 93% of chloramines and other disolved solids, and doesn't waste a drop of water (unlike most RO units). Might be a cheaper and easier option than buying jugs of water.

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Perfect-Water-Technologies-Home-Master-Jr-F2-Elite-SinkTop-Water-Filtration-System-in-White-TMJRf2E/203841387

.


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## DonPetro (Dec 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Hey Senile...
> 
> I bought one of these a year or so ago and it works like a charm. Five stage filter, removes 93% of chloramines and other disolved solids, and doesn't waste a drop of water (unlike most RO units). Might be a cheaper and easier option than buying jugs of water.
> 
> ...


I was thinking of a filtration system in time for spring. For now snow water is working good. I may just set up a rain barrel though.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 24, 2014)

DonPetro said:


> I was thinking of a filtration system in time for spring. For now snow water is working good. I may just set up a rain barrel though.


Rain water = great!

Hope you have a nice x-mas and even better new year DP


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## ODanksta (Dec 24, 2014)

Becareful collecting rain water, its very easy to bring unwanted guest into your home. I was using rain water a couple years ago, and always had spidermites. Now I only use RO and no mites.. if rain water is being used I would suggest boiling it first.


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## DonPetro (Dec 24, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Rain water = great!
> 
> Hope you have a nice x-mas and even better new year DP


Thank you! Same to you brother!


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 25, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Rain water = great!
> 
> Hope you have a nice x-mas and even better new year DP


I does have this thing for high Ph tho... sometimes my raimwater tanks can ne around 9.0 after a warm week


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## DonPetro (Dec 25, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> I does have this thing for high Ph tho... sometimes my raimwater tanks can ne around 9.0 after a warm week


Have you ever tested rainwater for TDS? I'd be interested to know the ppm.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 25, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Ten liters minimum pot size, under that they just break your heart, so 3 gal is minimum for flower unless you are flowering clones straight no veg or going straight 12/12 but even there under 3 gal is pointless as the plant will take a similar amount of room as something in a twenty liter. Under 3 gal or ten to twelve liters you get very bad expression of potential.


Fully understood bro, my pots are no less than 3 gal, i see what you mean though, plant will grow as big but the bud will be slacking. My sensi super skunk fem germinated with its first set of true leaves love the quick germination rate in this base mix bro, the look of it, the smell its beautiful ! Bro if i can confirm with you, you said you only feed with the all purpose tea in week 4 flowering right ? Much respect & hope you had a awesome day brother !


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 26, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Fully understood bro, my pots are no less than 3 gal, i see what you mean though, plant will grow as big but the bud will be slacking. My sensi super skunk fem germinated with its first set of true leaves love the quick germination rate in this base mix bro, the look of it, the smell its beautiful ! Bro if i can confirm with you, you said you only feed with the all purpose tea in week 4 flowering right ? Much respect & hope you had a awesome day brother !


Actually I stopped chasing the green that far and my last teas are now the day I hit flower. In flower I let them run out, deficiencies are tweaked for the next run if needed. Less is more I learned


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 26, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> well from where I am sitting it looks like around 50 to 80 grams per lady for this run bro, which is pretty good as long as you kick this thing perpetually. Your lamp seems pretty high, watch temps and see if you can drop it a tad. My estimate is on minimums to be clear. If money and time get tight I will drop you some cuts as long as you pay for the courier. Don't stress you are always sorted now bro.


Awesome brother, 50-80 is decent, just not sure how much ill get on the smallest lady that just germinated though, my lamp is about 30 cm (12") from the church & say about 40-45 (16") from the Diesel & unknown on the far left, they have stretched quite a bit since i took that picture bro, i will definitely take measurements when lights come on later. Bro some cuts would be really really dope! will definitely pay for the courier brother but i was wondering if it would be worth it now seeing as i got the other ladies all growing ? Really appreciate your offering bro, i still cant even thank you enough for all the help you've given me so far.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 26, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Actually I stopped chasing the green that far and my last teas are now the day I hit flower. In flower I let them run out, deficiencies are tweaked for the next run if needed. Less is more I learned


Awe bro so if im getting you correctly you hit them with a tea when they in flowering and then thats it ? Only one for the whole run ? Respect : )


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 26, 2014)

In veg they will maybe get two or three it all depends. I top dress and not always with the same things, right now it is a batch of compost I made using horse manure, rock dust, bokashi, gypsum, BTi and a few other goodies so it is wet and forget all the way absolutely zero teas on those girls. if they are happy and healthy in veg you only need that one tea beginning flower IMO. Using the mix you are using you won't need more than that I don't reckon. If they state going lighter from week six or what this is perfect, if the fade comes earlier another tea might be a good idea. Try get it all balanced before week four flower, you really don't want to add anything after that.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 26, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Awesome brother, 50-80 is decent, just not sure how much ill get on the smallest lady that just germinated though, my lamp is about 30 cm (12") from the church & say about 40-45 (16") from the Diesel & unknown on the far left, they have stretched quite a bit since i took that picture bro, i will definitely take measurements when lights come on later. Bro some cuts would be really really dope! will definitely pay for the courier brother but i was wondering if it would be worth it now seeing as i got the other ladies all growing ? Really appreciate your offering bro, i still cant even thank you enough for all the help you've given me so far.


Open a Hushmail account and let me know when you had it... I will only talk cuts on very secure servers...


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 26, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> In veg they will maybe get two or three it all depends. I top dress and not always with the same things, right now it is a batch of compost I made using horse manure, rock dust, bokashi, gypsum, BTi and a few other goodies so it is wet and forget all the way absolutely zero teas on those girls. if they are happy and healthy in veg you only need that one tea beginning flower IMO. Using the mix you are using you won't need more than that I don't reckon. If they state going lighter from week six or what this is perfect, if the fade comes earlier another tea might be a good idea. Try get it all balanced before week four flower, you really don't want to add anything after that.


For sure bro depends on what base mix is being used, the ewc in my mix seems to be working pretty well for the ladies as they dont seem deficient in anything but then again its also my first run & im hitting 2 weeks on Sunday and the buds seem to be forming beautifully. 

I see you are experimenting with different methods bro, the way they act to the variations of different amendments must be seriously interesting, i added some pics with some a little more close up, im thinking a tea on week 4 might do the trick well brother, i take it if you add anything after it can affect taste and high quite drastically? I also had a quick look at the heights and they are at 25cm , 30cm and 35cm away from the light. Respect bro





I have a few of these spots on the lower leaves not many at all say about 5 leaves, not sure if this is just a burn from a hot concentrated spot of light.





Church





Diesel hybrid of some sort





Grapey lemon i actually have no idea what this is, some of her top leaves seemed to have curled sidewards a bit really not sure why maybe because of the heat i had.



Mad Hamish said:


> Open a Hushmail account and let me know when you had it... I will only talk cuts on very secure servers...


Will let you know as soon as i have one brother


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 27, 2014)

That burn looks like jeat stress in a hot soil mix, nothing to panic about at this point. Lamp height is fine bro, looks waaaaaaay further in the pics. Actually on the line to too close but I see you havea probe in the canopy so I am certain you have your eyes on all parameters. Two more weeks of stretch left, things are going to get tight in there soon enough lol. I wish my first run came close, total ghetto style that was. Total herm factory, it wasn't pretty. Kicking ass mate. Anyhow, it is not so much that I experiment with different methods, it is more a case of what is available either on my land or as close to as possible to work with. In the end it is all compost, whether it was made with lawn and kitchen scraps or a tweaked heap with manure or out of my wormy bins. I see it all as the same method, Living Organics, and seeing as the plant is in control results are insanely predictable now I have learned not to pump it up with too many nitrogen sources and to always use lacto's. From there it is the ratio of thirds in the base mixes, and that is it. As I mentioned I top dress liberally which is enough to keep building my soil as I recycle, each run I add more than the plant takes out. I never plant anything but canna in my soils so after three generations they are pretty much loaded with a cannabis specific micro herd. I am going one step further and developing PHENO specific micro herds, where I only run ONE CUT in that soil. Hitting generation 3 on the Zombie Balls now, yields are already much improved while high and flavor remain perfectly unchanged, each clone so far has hit and tasted the same. But it all boils down to soil structure in the end.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 27, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> That burn looks like jeat stress in a hot soil mix, nothing to panic about at this point. Lamp height is fine bro, looks waaaaaaay further in the pics. Actually on the line to too close but I see you havea probe in the canopy so I am certain you have your eyes on all parameters. Two more weeks of stretch left, things are going to get tight in there soon enough lol. I wish my first run came close, total ghetto style that was. Total herm factory, it wasn't pretty. Kicking ass mate. Anyhow, it is not so much that I experiment with different methods, it is more a case of what is available either on my land or as close to as possible to work with. In the end it is all compost, whether it was made with lawn and kitchen scraps or a tweaked heap with manure or out of my wormy bins. I see it all as the same method, Living Organics, and seeing as the plant is in control results are insanely predictable now I have learned not to pump it up with too many nitrogen sources and to always use lacto's. From there it is the ratio of thirds in the base mixes, and that is it. As I mentioned I top dress liberally which is enough to keep building my soil as I recycle, each run I add more than the plant takes out. I never plant anything but canna in my soils so after three generations they are pretty much loaded with a cannabis specific micro herd. I am going one step further and developing PHENO specific micro herds, where I only run ONE CUT in that soil. Hitting generation 3 on the Zombie Balls now, yields are already much improved while high and flavor remain perfectly unchanged, each clone so far has hit and tasted the same. But it all boils down to soil structure in the end.


Could of possibly been the 60 grams each of lucerne i blended in my food blender although it seems like a minimal worry you right brother, i looked at that previous pic again its crazy how far it looks even i think they like 60 cm from the light, i should take another pic at that angle and see how they look cause they put on tremendously quick growth the last week as they got used to the light, that diesel at the back right shot up taller than the church in literally 2 days i see now ? 

Awe bro, i been keeping a good eye on the temperatures, ducted my hot air properly now putting the ac on now & then but temps sit at about 29-30c(86f), i might switch the indica dom with the church seeing as it wants to take on a more wider spread, ill be glad if these 3 can make good use of the tent hopefully not crowding too much lol. Bro i tried some smaller indoor grows which were ghetto but never really got away with it due to heat and so forth, its been a long long wait with this setup & without your help i doubt id have ladies looking like that !

Respect bro, thats a good principle to work with use what you have or what can be aquired easily close by, i take it too much nitrogen could lock out other elements bro ? Amazing how the microherds work after you built up that soil for a while, thats really interesting information brother & pheno specific micro herds thats seriously next level !! : ) Soil structure on the other hand depends on alot of factors but when you making your own your own i can imagine its hard to get it perfectly the same all the time ?


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 27, 2014)

Cool keep them temps as stable as possible, 28 is right in the sweet spot IMO. Nitrogen doesn't really cause lock out just burn, but can easily be locked out by a few factors. I found that too much makes for very leafy girls, indies grow these hue fans and teeeeny buds if fed too much. Eagle claws and other weird stuff. Just one of those things where more is NOT better lol


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 27, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Cool keep them temps as stable as possible, 28 is right in the sweet spot IMO. Nitrogen doesn't really cause lock out just burn, but can easily be locked out by a few factors. I found that too much makes for very leafy girls, indies grow these hue fans and teeeeny buds if fed too much. Eagle claws and other weird stuff. Just one of those things where more is NOT better lol


Got it bro, will try keep it as close to 28 as possible. Alot of N is definitely unwanted then, i hope the dried lucerne i added as mulch wont break down too much? shit id cry if i didnt know that & ended up with popcorn heads lol, like you said brother less is more ! Respect


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 27, 2014)

Nah that should be fine as a mulch mate no stress. Not much chance of pure popcorn there lol


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 27, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Nah that should be fine as a mulch mate no stress. Not much chance of pure popcorn there lol


Lol thank you bro, with the rate they growing im hopeful for some beautiful flowers, im eager to see how they will stretch though, will the seedling have a chance or will they block out all its light lol 
Respect


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 27, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Lol thank you bro, with the rate they growing im hopeful for some beautiful flowers, im eager to see how they will stretch though, will the seedling have a chance or will they block out all its light lol
> Respect


Good question, looks like it is going to get pretty dense in there you might have to raise her pot for a while there. I usually just invert an empty pot and use it as a stand.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 28, 2014)

Sweet brother, i will definitely keep her raised, an inverted pot is a good idea, got one sitting outside. Atleast the super skunk lady only has a 45-55 day flowering period so that helps alot, sprayed some margaret roberts organic insecticide just for some maintenance incase, saw a little fly or two but definitely way less than had when i started. 

How is your run going bro ?


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 28, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Sweet brother, i will definitely keep her raised, an inverted pot is a good idea, got one sitting outside. Atleast the super skunk lady only has a 45-55 day flowering period so that helps alot, sprayed some margaret roberts organic insecticide just for some maintenance incase, saw a little fly or two but definitely way less than had when i started.
> 
> How is your run going bro ?


 Can't complain mate




[/IMG]


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 28, 2014)




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## Mad Hamish (Dec 28, 2014)

^^Zombie Balls my main pheno for now


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 28, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> View attachment 3320858


With those colours and that frosty coat, bro that is trippy in a seriously good way, im pretty much mesmerized by that picture haha, she's beautiful bro, much much respect


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 28, 2014)

SouthernSoil* said:


> With those colours and that frosty coat, bro that is trippy in a seriously good way, im pretty much mesmerized by that picture haha, she's beautiful bro, much much respect


Get your cloning game up NOW  I don't hoard and she is a gem. Perfect pain and sleep meds.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 29, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Get your cloning game up NOW  I don't hoard and she is a gem. Perfect pain and sleep meds.


Bro next run all clones no doubt, she really does look and sound like a gem brother, she must be extremely smooth !


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 29, 2014)

Oh hell no, super expansive smoke that threatens to burst your chest in a bong. Clouds of friggin milk on exhale. Old school


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 29, 2014)

Can someone help me understand how lactobacillus acidophilus is beneficial cannabis growing? I'm familiar with using it to make a hobaski composting bin, but as a soil conditioner I'm relatively uninformed.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 29, 2014)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Can someone help me understand how lactobacillus acidophilus is beneficial cannabis growing? I'm familiar with using it to make a hobaski composting bin, but as a soil conditioner I'm relatively uninformed.


Basically it converts ammonia nitrogen into nitrates, and immobilises them by keeping them inside cell walls. This does several things, firstly it gives soil that sweet rich smell, secondly it cools a hot mix by getting rid of ammonia which is in many high n sources like manure and guano so if you use those definitely use some lacto b. 
Finally it allows the plant to take control of its own nitrogen uptake, as immobilised elements are carried to the plant via fungal hyphae that only do so when the plant demands it. It is the most abundant bacteria on this planet, I have seen it referred to as 'nature's work horse'


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## CannaBare (Dec 29, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Basically it converts ammonia nitrogen into nitrates, and immobilises them by keeping them inside cell walls. This does several things, firstly it gives soil that sweet rich smell, secondly it cools a hot mix by getting rid of ammonia which is in many high n sources like manure and guano so if you use those definitely use some lacto b.
> Finally it allows the plant to take control of its own nitrogen uptake, as immobilised elements are carried to the plant via fungal hyphae that only do so when the plant demands it. It is the most abundant bacteria on this planet, I have seen it referred to as 'nature's work horse'


Great info Thanks! I am going to start my first culture


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 29, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Basically it converts ammonia nitrogen into nitrates, and immobilises them by keeping them inside cell walls. This does several things, firstly it gives soil that sweet rich smell, secondly it cools a hot mix by getting rid of ammonia which is in many high n sources like manure and guano so if you use those definitely use some lacto b.
> Finally it allows the plant to take control of its own nitrogen uptake, as immobilised elements are carried to the plant via fungal hyphae that only do so when the plant demands it. It is the most abundant bacteria on this planet, I have seen it referred to as 'nature's work horse'


Thank you! I knew it had something do with helping breakdown nutrients. I need to bust out the molasses and rice to start another culture.


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## SouthernSoil* (Dec 29, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Oh hell no, super expansive smoke that threatens to burst your chest in a bong. Clouds of friggin milk on exhale. Old school


Super expansive, i love the sounds of that. One hit and it seems like two? Bro id be different person with a hit of that !


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 30, 2014)

Found this in my garden last night (that's a large pickle jar).

WTF?!?!


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 30, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Found this in my garden last night (that's a large pickle jar).
> 
> WTF?!?!
> 
> View attachment 3322010


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 30, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> Found this in my garden last night (that's a large pickle jar).
> 
> WTF?!?!
> 
> View attachment 3322010


It looks a bit wobbly due to the glass, but you might want to look up violin spiders ot looks quite close. In which case fukin squash it. Naaaaaaaaassssttttyyyyyyy bastards.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 30, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> It looks a bit wobbly due to the glass, but you might want to look up violin spiders ot looks quite close. In which case fukin squash it. Naaaaaaaaassssttttyyyyyyy bastards.



I looked it up last night and am pretty sure it's an orb weaver. Supposedly harmless to humans, but either way it was escorted to a tree across the street. I'd shit my pants if I found that in bed with me!


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 30, 2014)

Let's talk about application rates for a lactobacillus soil drench. I have another culture of it brewing currently but my only experience is making a hobaski composting bin. 
I've been reading that a 20:1 water:lactobacillus is what's suggested. 
But what would happen if I cut that to 10:1 or even undiluted? Would the lacto overpopulate the other beneficial bacteria? 
I understand that, like most stuff in Organics, a low but frequent application rate is best. 
But can someone actually explain why that would be true in this instance? I want to understand it, not just replicate someone's method.


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## a senile fungus (Dec 30, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I looked it up last night and am pretty sure it's an orb weaver. Supposedly harmless to humans, but either way it was escorted to a tree across the street. I'd shit my pants if I found that in bed with me!


This fell onto my pillow from above.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 30, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> This fell onto my pillow from above.
> 
> View attachment 3322072


Damn! I hate spiders


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 30, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> I looked it up last night and am pretty sure it's an orb weaver. Supposedly harmless to humans, but either way it was escorted to a tree across the street. I'd shit my pants if I found that in bed with me!


Orbs are AWESOME. Usually have a much higher back though, golden or lumo green or yellow markings out this side. The real way to tell an Orb is the web, very thick yellow strands, the worlds strongest spider silk. Not exactly harmless they can leave a huge welt, them teeth are pretty big far as spiders go, but docile as can be I don't see how you would get bitten. You'd hate my place, the rain spiders are double the size of that thing and when i point out how to spot the black widows you will crap yourself lol. Only spiders worth fearing are funnel webs and violin spiders. The rest are OK really never cause problems.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 30, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> This fell onto my pillow from above.
> 
> View attachment 3322072


Hahahaha if you only knew... I think the state is something like at least ten spiders swallowed by accident during sleep over the average human life. Some of them actually collect human hair no BS


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 30, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> Orbs are AWESOME. Usually have a much higher back though, golden or lumo green or yellow markings out this side. The real way to tell an Orb is the web, very thick yellow strands, the worlds strongest spider silk. Not exactly harmless they can leave a huge welt, them teeth are pretty big far as spiders go, but docile as can be I don't see how you would get bitten. You'd hate my place, the rain spiders are double the size of that thing and when i point out how to spot the black widows you will crap yourself lol. Only spiders worth fearing are funnel webs and violin spiders. The rest are OK really never cause problems.


We had an orb living in our backyard a couple summers ago. Very distinct yellow markings on its back, and twice the size of the one pictured above. It made lighting bolt patterns in its web, and would aggressively shake its web back and forth if you got too close. Cool and freaky at the same time.

I probably would hate living where you do with all of the creepy crawly's..... but seeing all of the big cats and other wildlife would be very cool too.


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## Mad Hamish (Dec 30, 2014)

st0wandgrow said:


> We had an orb living in our backyard a couple summers ago. Very distinct yellow markings on its back, and twice the size of the one pictured above. It made lighting bolt patterns in its web, and would aggressively shake its web back and forth if you got too close. Cool and freaky at the same time.
> 
> I probably would hate living where you do with all of the creepy crawly's..... but seeing all of the big cats and other wildlife would be very cool too.


LOL they are friggin funny when you get them upset. Mate, sad thing is, if i want to see wild life I need to fork out prices only American tourists can afford. It sucks but I won't bitch, the money funds anti poaching squads and so on so yeah... Some snakes around for sure, but leopard and mountain lion are hunted out. We can go pay to hunt gazelle and buck as part of culls. America has much more truly wild space than South Africa brother. I want to go to the USA and Alaska just to stand in truly big open spaces. Alaska looks WILD.


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 30, 2014)

Mad Hamish said:


> LOL they are friggin funny when you get them upset. Mate, sad thing is, if i want to see wild life I need to fork out prices only American tourists can afford. It sucks but I won't bitch, the money funds anti poaching squads and so on so yeah... Some snakes around for sure, but leopard and mountain lion are hunted out. We can go pay to hunt gazelle and buck as part of culls. America has much more truly wild space than South Africa brother. I want to go to the USA and Alaska just to stand in truly big open spaces. Alaska looks WILD.


Go Canadian, America isn't exactly the place I'd suggest you come to. If our police don't harass you the citizens probably will.


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## Midwest Weedist (Dec 31, 2014)

Here's a couple bud shots of my Scotts og ladies. Day ~30 of flower
Man, Organics still blows my mind every day


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## thegreencage93 (Dec 31, 2014)

So fellas I was thinking since I have an allergy to crustations I don't think I would want to put crab or shrimp meal into my soil so how well would crickets work I have read that they contain 30% chitin by weight would that be a good enough source?


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## PSUAGRO. (Dec 31, 2014)

thegreencage93 said:


> So fellas I was thinking since I have an allergy to crustations I don't think I would want to put crab or shrimp meal into my soil so how well would crickets work I have read that they contain 30% chitin by weight would that be a good enough source?


Yes..........but @ a higher cost, Frass is not cheap. Better than an allergic reaction though


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## thegreencage93 (Dec 31, 2014)

Ya but I looked up how to farm the little critters it sems simple and cheap so that might be the route I have to take but thanks for the reply you all are amazing


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## thegreencage93 (Jan 1, 2015)

This thread is like a drug I just can't put it down haha I'm on my third round reading it


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## earthling420 (Jan 1, 2015)

hmm this cover crop (CC) talk has my interest. so with a cc one doesn't need a mulch layer on top of soil Id assume? and what kimd of cover crops are yall using? how was it? ive seen some rum CC's that didn't turn out too well. how good are mushrooms as a cc?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 2, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> hmm this cover crop (CC) talk has my interest. so with a cc one doesn't need a mulch layer on top of soil Id assume? and what kimd of cover crops are yall using? how was it? ive seen some rum CC's that didn't turn out too well. how good are mushrooms as a cc?


I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in and add what I couldn't answer. 
Personally I like to use different clovers like Crimson red and Dutch white clovers. I mulch still, just prior to planting my cc for the cycle. I'll never go back to not having cc or companion plants. For one they help diversify your little ecosystem you created for your ladies. The biggest benefit I've found is that with a cc your rhiosphere very healthy and active. Your soil also retains a better, even level of moisture since the cc physically prevents moisture from evaporating away.


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## thegreencage93 (Jan 2, 2015)

Bahia grass seems like it would be a great cc since is colonizes mycos in its root mass


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 2, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> hmm this cover crop (CC) talk has my interest. so with a cc one doesn't need a mulch layer on top of soil Id assume? and what kimd of cover crops are yall using? how was it? ive seen some rum CC's that didn't turn out too well. how good are mushrooms as a cc?


It's the bees knees IMO. As Midwest pointed out above it helps a great deal in keeping the soil evenly moist. If you use legumes, clover, etc you can also fix atmospheric N as well.


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## bicit (Jan 2, 2015)

Another question for experienced folks. I have compost, peat moss, amendments, and covercrop seeds. However the perlite had to be ordered and won't be here until the middle of the month. Can I start the aging process now and get the cover crop going and just mix in the perlite when it get's here(tilling the cover crop into it)? Or would it be better to wait until the perlite is here before mixing everything up starting the aging process?

Thanks in advance.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 2, 2015)

Hey guys so im pretty much in week 3 of flowering, ladies are looking good, the sativa has reached the top of the hood basically lol, pretty sad i dont have a 4th big lady in there though ! got to be grateful for the 3 i guess. Peace : ) !


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 2, 2015)

bicit said:


> Another question for experienced folks. I have compost, peat moss, amendments, and covercrop seeds. However the perlite had to be ordered and won't be here until the middle of the month. Can I start the aging process now and get the cover crop going and just mix in the perlite when it get's here(tilling the cover crop into it)? Or would it be better to wait until the perlite is here before mixing everything up starting the aging process?
> 
> Thanks in advance.


You could do it that way. What I'd probably do is mix in all of your dry amendments to the base, wet that down with an ACt and let it sit with no cover crop. Once your perlite arives mix that in and then lay down the cover crop


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## bicit (Jan 2, 2015)

Cool beans, thanks!


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## goodjoint (Jan 2, 2015)

I've been following this thread for about a month. I've completed two successful organic grows, but I've never tried living soil. About a week ago, I sourced a healthy amount of local compost and mixed together...

- 6 gallons organic horse manure compost, incredibly rich with live earthworms - composted/aged for 8 months.
- 1.5 gallons worm castings (not very fresh, but i thought i'd throw them in there)
- 7 gallons spagnum peat moss
- 7 gallons perlite/lava rock blend
- 2 gallons biochar (activated with a nutrient rich AACT - kelp meal, alfalfa meal, fish hydrolysate, compost, earth worm castings, molasses)
- Nutrient Kit from BuildaSoil

I designed my planter out of a 27 gallon storage bin, carefully for several hours, drilling holes for airflow, and covering the inside with cut pieces of a fabric pot.
Then I layered a thin amount of organic horse manure compost and sprinkled 'cover crop' seeds (from bas). Watered it down with a compost tea, and haven't touched it since.

It's been about a week now, and the cover crop is sprouting strong. Even some mushrooms are showing up!! I assume these are a good sign??

On December 31st, I planted 5 Space Dawg (TGA) seeds and I'm waiting for them to sprout. While the soil cooks for another couple of weeks, I will be raising the seedlings in little cups, planted in a soil mixture of 1/3 compost/earth worm castings, 1/3 spaghnum peat moss, 1/3 perlite. Once they're ready to move out of their cups, I'll plant them into the No-Till bed and chop down the cover crop at the same time? Should I leave the cover crop growing? (I have a feeling that the cover crop is going to grow massively by that time, since it's already taking off (about 4 inches tall)).

I plan on vegging them for around 2 months, and then flowering them with 2 area 51 xgs-190 led panels, and 2 area 51 rw-150 panels in a 4x4 tent.

What do you guys think? I'm hoping to be impressed, shocked, and awed with this growing style. Would love some input.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 2, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> I've been following this thread for about a month. I've completed two successful organic grows, but I've never tried living soil. About a week ago, I sourced a healthy amount of local compost and mixed together...
> 
> - 6 gallons organic horse manure compost, incredibly rich with live earthworms - composted/aged for 8 months.
> - 1.5 gallons worm castings (not very fresh, but i thought i'd throw them in there)
> ...



You'll find that the cover crop will lay down for you. I think it's a combination of it getting too long to stand upright + repeated waterings (which kind of beats it down) + when you dig your hole for your clone you will uproot and somewhat flatten the sprouts. I usually chop mine down around the 3'rd week of flower as they start to get shaded out at that point and really only serve as a mulch. In my mind this is a good time to cut them down as any nitrogen fixing that is/was taking place has served its purpose in veg and early flower. You could certainly leave them be if you wanted to though. 

Keep in mind that my advice is only anecdotal and could be complete nonsense. 

I like the looks of your soil btw. Should be a kick-ass grow!


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 2, 2015)

I don't know how well you can see this, but this is a plant that will be getting flipped to flower in a week. The container it's in was left fallow after a re-amend/top dress with a cover crop laid down. It sat like this for 3 weeks, then a new clone was plugged in. This is week 2 with a clone in it, and the cover crop is already laying down mostly.


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## bicit (Jan 2, 2015)

So next question. I have access to soil from a garden that was built on an old horse pasture. The productivity of this garden is amazing so I'd like to snag some. The question though is should I treat this as compost, and mix with peat and perlite? Or treat it as a base and only mix perlite into it?


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## a senile fungus (Jan 3, 2015)

bicit said:


> So next question. I have access to soil from a garden that was built on an old horse pasture. The productivity of this garden is amazing so I'd like to snag some. The question though is should I treat this as compost, and mix with peat and perlite? Or treat it as a base and only mix perlite into it?



I treated my native soil as an inoculant into my amended soil mix.

I used 1/3 sphagnum peat, 1/3 aeration (perlite and cocoa bean shells) and the remaining 1/3 was EWC and compost.

I grabbed a couple shovels of native dirt from my garden and just threw it right into the mix. The outdoor dirt has tons of life in it, and you are providing all those microbes with food stock and breeding grounds.

They will multiply and be happy


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 3, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> I treated my native soil as an inoculant into my amended soil mix.
> 
> I used 1/3 sphagnum peat, 1/3 aeration (perlite and cocoa bean shells) and the remaining 1/3 was EWC and compost.
> 
> ...


^That^



bicit said:


> So next question. I have access to soil from a garden that was built on an old horse pasture. The productivity of this garden is amazing so I'd like to snag some. The question though is should I treat this as compost, and mix with peat and perlite? Or treat it as a base and only mix perlite into it?


Something else to keep in mind..... what type if soil is it? Silty, loamy, clay, etc? Depending what type of soil it is, and how much you're adding you may have to offset this with more aeration bits. Clay soil for example has a tiny particle size and would need more aeration, where as loamy soil has a larger particle size and drains very well, so more compost could potentially be added to this.


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## BlueDemon62 (Jan 3, 2015)

Can someone help me better understand the section on spider mites? I.e. a good organic spray to actively combat mites, what a 'mite magnet' is- is it a plant I keep to draw them away from the pot? Or something to keep AWAY as it draws them to the plant and thus into the garden? I was on my 5th ever grow - after a yield of 1.5oz/plant - and I started to get lazy...cleanliness went out the window and now I'm infested...huge African landrace plant yielding almost nothing on week 8 flower after a huge bug problem and now she's almost dead...cleaned up my act, but the bugs still remain. Tips?

Sent from my DROID RAZR using Rollitup mobile app


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## thegreencage93 (Jan 3, 2015)

To all the guys who think harvesting worm poo is a pain in the butt these things seme to be wonderful actual alot of worm farmers use giant sized ones

How To Build A Trommel !:


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## goodjoint (Jan 3, 2015)

I was staring closely at the soil surface and noticed some very faint movement. I took a closer look using a cheapo 100x USB Microscope and recorded a cool video clip of the microlife in action. I'm thinking that these are good critters (hopefully)... I'm not that far into reading "Teaming with Microbes", so I'm lost what these are... but they're fun to watch!! lol.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 3, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> I was staring closely at the soil surface and noticed some very faint movement. I took a closer look using a cheapo 100x USB Microscope and recorded a cool video clip of the microlife in action. I'm thinking that these are good critters (hopefully)... I'm not that far into reading "Teaming with Microbes", so I'm lost what these are... but they're fun to watch!! lol.


That's a great vid! I'm guessing here, but I'd say those critters are hypoaspis miles (predator mite) and the white worm looking things could be nematodes.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 4, 2015)

Hey there guys, i have my 3 ladies flowering under a 600w air cooled glass hood, the sativa dominant's cola has passed the hoods level lol, the other two are sitting at 6" & 8" inches from the hood would it be cool to drop them 5 inches ? would the stretch be bad or a good thing ? Thing is it would help controlling temps better while im away for a few days aswell, any advice would be lovely, respect : )


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 4, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey there guys, i have my 3 ladies flowering under a 600w air cooled glass hood, the sativa dominant's cola has passed the hoods level lol, the other two are sitting at 6" & 8" inches from the hood would it be cool to drop them 5 inches ? would the stretch be bad or a good thing ? Thing is it would help controlling temps better while im away for a few days aswell, any advice would be lovely, respect : )


 My hoods are about 60 cm away right now. You will find they like being a bit further away, with a reflective room we have a lot more headroom than going old school. The PAR in there should be just fine.


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 4, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> I've been following this thread for about a month. I've completed two successful organic grows, but I've never tried living soil. About a week ago, I sourced a healthy amount of local compost and mixed together...
> 
> - 6 gallons organic horse manure compost, incredibly rich with live earthworms - composted/aged for 8 months.
> - 1.5 gallons worm castings (not very fresh, but i thought i'd throw them in there)
> ...


Solid as can be far as the soil goes. Just remember that with each run recycling your soil gets better and more alive. The mind blowing bits comeminnthe second and third generation trust me your jaw will be on the floor when you see how quickly they grow these fat ass stalks...


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 5, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> My hoods are about 60 cm away right now. You will find they like being a bit further away, with a reflective room we have a lot more headroom than going old school. The PAR in there should be just fine.


Perfect, thank you brother, im going to drop them, wanted to ask do you run a air cooled or just a normal open reflector bro ? Definitely should be good with the PAR output, respect bro.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 5, 2015)

BlueDemon62 said:


> Can someone help me better understand the section on spider mites? I.e. a good organic spray to actively combat mites, what a 'mite magnet' is- is it a plant I keep to draw them away from the pot? Or something to keep AWAY as it draws them to the plant and thus into the garden? I was on my 5th ever grow - after a yield of 1.5oz/plant - and I started to get lazy...cleanliness went out the window and now I'm infested...huge African landrace plant yielding almost nothing on week 8 flower after a huge bug problem and now she's almost dead...cleaned up my act, but the bugs still remain. Tips?
> 
> Sent from my DROID RAZR using Rollitup mobile app


I've always had good luck with Azamax in the past. 3-4 applications a few days apart, making sure to get the tops and bottom of all leaves. I haven't had to bust that out in ages though. I firmly believe that if you amend your soil with neem seed meal and crab shell meal (or something else that brings chitin to the soil) along with having a thriving microbial population in your soil raises the plants SAR and fends off pests that like to munch on your gals. I haven't had any issues with pests since switching to this type of organically amended soil, where as in the past using synthetics I was constantly battling some type of bug.


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 5, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Perfect, thank you brother, im going to drop them, wanted to ask do you run a air cooled or just a normal open reflector bro ? Definitely should be good with the PAR output, respect bro.


Running cool tubes ATM, several per tent with reflectors removed. I don't like these square hoods I can shove a lot more tubes into a lot less space. I view a 'lamp' as a setup with a 600HPS and 400MH in close overlap. So i work exclusovely with teamed ballasts


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 6, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Running cool tubes ATM, several per tent with reflectors removed. I don't like these square hoods I can shove a lot more tubes into a lot less space. I view a 'lamp' as a setup with a 600HPS and 400MH in close overlap. So i work exclusovely with teamed ballasts


Sounds like you got all of those very well tweaked in bro !  by close overlap do you mean something like this bro





Respect


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 6, 2015)

That's a really Rad DIY idea there I cannot imagine a cheaper way to build a dual hood. I try keep each globe far enough away from each other to not raise temps in one little spot otherwise I would go back to 1000w ballasts. MUCH easier controlling two six hondos than a 1000 far as hot spots go


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 6, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Sounds like you got all of those very well tweaked in bro !  by close overlap do you mean something like this bro
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I guess a picture tells a thousand words


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 7, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> That's a really Rad DIY idea there I cannot imagine a cheaper way to build a dual hood. I try keep each globe far enough away from each other to not raise temps in one little spot otherwise I would go back to 1000w ballasts. MUCH easier controlling two six hondos than a 1000 far as hot spots go





Mad Hamish said:


> I guess a picture tells a thousand words View attachment 3326741


I see what you've done there, thats beast bro ! you got that light spectrum in the sweet sweet sweet spot ! : ) And look at those beauties, i can just imagine close ups of them, frosty frosty ! : ) Awe bro, much much respect.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 7, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> That's a really Rad DIY idea there I cannot imagine a cheaper way to build a dual hood. I try keep each globe far enough away from each other to not raise temps in one little spot otherwise I would go back to 1000w ballasts. MUCH easier controlling two six hondos than a 1000 far as hot spots go


Tis true.... those 1000 watters can really damage a plant if the bulb is too close. I have 3x 1000 watts in my flower room which could create some problems for me but I have them all on light rails. They constantly move back and forth over head about 18"-24". Just enough to avoid any hot spots and spreads out my footprint a smidge too. Works like a charm.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 7, 2015)

Shit, so i was taking a look with a magnifying glass & some of the lower leaves of my ladies have some thrips infestation, I immediately sprayed some garlic & canola oil onto the bottom sides of the leaves & then later on before lights off i sprayed some lacto b.

Mad Hamish bro, you suggested ludwigs insect spray+ bro i should just pop in the morning and go buy a bottle, if im correct it contains garlic oil, canola oil & pyrethrins right ? I have some fresh chillies in the garden i could brew and spray aswell but shit i need to kill these fuckers.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 7, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Shit, so i was taking a look with a magnifying glass & some of the lower leaves of my ladies have some thrips infestation, I immediately sprayed some garlic & canola oil onto the bottom sides of the leaves & then later on before lights off i sprayed some lacto b.
> 
> Mad Hamish bro, you suggested ludwigs insect spray+ bro i should just pop in the morning and go buy a bottle, if im correct it contains garlic oil, canola oil & pyrethrins right ? I have some fresh chillies in the garden i could brew and spray aswell but shit i need to kill these fuckers.


Make sure to spray the surface of the soil too. Those little effers like to hang out there as well


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 7, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Make sure to spray the surface of the soil too. Those little effers like to hang out there as well


Will do bro, so then do you suggest i use the pyrethrins? Should i bust out a chilli spray now while lights are on and then get some of the pyrethrin spray in the morning ? I also saw some type of white bugger climbing up the main branch. Shit i need to drench these ladies in some organic insect murdering juice asap


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 7, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Will do bro, so then do you suggest i use the pyrethrins? Should i bust out a chilli spray now while lights are on and then get some of the pyrethrin spray in the morning ? I also saw some type of white bugger climbing up the main branch. Shit i need to drench these ladies in some organic insect murdering juice asap


I only use Azamax and/or essential oils (rosemary, tea tree oil) so I wouldn't be the one to ask about pyrethrins.


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## greenghost420 (Jan 8, 2015)

been adding bout 4oz per gal of coconut water and they fucking love it! this stardawg was chopped early and is fucking dank and the bubble hash is the same. sadly i didnt have a control to compare but i cut at bout the same time last chop and this time there was more resin for sure. next test is to see how the microbe life samples do.

anyone run microbe life products?


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 8, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I only use Azamax and/or essential oils (rosemary, tea tree oil) so I wouldn't be the one to ask about pyrethrins.


No problem bro, thank you anyway !


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## Pattahabi (Jan 8, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Shit, so i was taking a look with a magnifying glass & some of the lower leaves of my ladies have some thrips infestation, I immediately sprayed some garlic & canola oil onto the bottom sides of the leaves & then later on before lights off i sprayed some lacto b.
> 
> Mad Hamish bro, you suggested ludwigs insect spray+ bro i should just pop in the morning and go buy a bottle, if im correct it contains garlic oil, canola oil & pyrethrins right ? I have some fresh chillies in the garden i could brew and spray aswell but shit i need to kill these fuckers.


Spinosad. Spray at lights out. Do not spray the soil. 

P-


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## Pattahabi (Jan 8, 2015)

I love this kind of stuff...

*Scientists Hit Antibiotic Pay Dirt Growing Finicky Bacteria In Lab*


P-


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 8, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Do not spray the soil.
> 
> P-


Why not? Is there something in spinosad that you don't want coming in contact with the soil?


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## Pattahabi (Jan 8, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Why not? Is there something in spinosad that you don't want coming in contact with the soil?


Spinosad can hurt beneficial insects as well.

_Effects of spinosad on earthworms and soil microorganisms have been investigated in the laboratory. Results indicated that appli- cation rates of 25-150 g/ha should not cause significant effect on soil microflora respiration. Earthworms were not very susceptible to spinosad (LD50 > 970 mg/kg, Jachetta 2001). *There is little research on the impact of spinosad on insect soil detritivores and their predators, including ants and springtails. However, since some spinosad products are targeted against fire ants, a soil dwelling species, it is likely that there would be some impact against other soil fauna.*_

P-


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## a senile fungus (Jan 9, 2015)

@st0wandgrow

I have a mixture of DE, gypsum, oyster shell meal and dolomite lime. I wanna say 1 part of all and maybe two parts of DE.



It's all mixed up and I was just gonna top dress with it.

I wanted to top dress some cal and mag type stuff, and also preventative measures against flyers.

Think it'll do? Just throw it up on the soil and water in? Unfortunately I'm out of EWC and my parents compost pile is frozen solid. 

Thanks.


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## foreverflyhi (Jan 9, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> @st0wandgrow
> 
> I have a mixture of DE, gypsum, oyster shell meal and dolomite lime. I wanna say 1 part of all and maybe two parts of DE.
> 
> ...


IvI've always wondered about compost piles in freezing conditions , guess the thermal heating isn't enough to keep it going?

Is the pile maintained?

I once took tempature reading in my compost pile in a super cold morning and it was about 90degrees, still cookin

Here in southern cali it doesn't really get too cold (unless your in straight desert climate or high up in the mountains)


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## a senile fungus (Jan 9, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> IvI've always wondered about compost piles in freezing conditions , guess the thermal heating isn't enough to keep it going?
> 
> Is the pile maintained?



Its a huge pile of shavings and manure from my parents farm. The horses are feed our own quality hay and eat really good food too. The pile just keeps being added on to and pushed back. So I supposed its not maintained, or maintained in a rugged way. The compost is at the back side, the shavings and manure on the front side. Big pile in the trees. Probably 8 or 9ft high, 40ft wide and 20ft deep.

I'm sure the inside of the pile is warm enough, but I went out there with a hand shovel and it broke off in the ice. With the tractor I could get into it, in fact, that's what I'll do tomorrow! 

Most winters that I remember the pile is throwing off heat but the last couple days have been pretty cold and windy.

Hope that helps to answer your question!


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 9, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I only use Azamax and/or essential oils (rosemary, tea tree oil) so I wouldn't be the one to ask about pyrethrins.


Our equal to Azamax is called Effect Eco Insect Control and I am with StOw here it is fantastic.


SouthernSoil* said:


> No problem bro, thank you anyway !


StOws advice for Spinosad is solid bud. The ecomimsect spray mixes well with ludwigs or the Margaret Roberts, I mix it with the latter to make a spinosad based ludwigs type spray. It is your better option in flower although both are excellent. What makes ludwigs special is it is not a synthetic pyrethrin like the others, those are systemic and bad news. Spinosad is a totally organic by product of bacterial metabolic activity. It is beyond safe for you as a human.


Pattahabi said:


> Spinosad. Spray at lights out. Do not spray the soil.
> 
> P-


I disagree in a South African garden. Right now we have averages of 80RH and regular temps above 100. It is bug paradise. Spraying the soil is essential, best to turn to our arsenal of probiotics to do our best to rectify the situation. Our composts are not clean so our soils never are. How can I put this... it is Africa.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 10, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> @st0wandgrow
> 
> I have a mixture of DE, gypsum, oyster shell meal and dolomite lime. I wanna say 1 part of all and maybe two parts of DE.
> 
> ...


Do you have a mulch or some fresh soil to lay down over top of that? 

As for the DE, I haven't had much luck using it as a pest deterrent. It really cakes up when it gets wet, and it tends to fly all over the place while you water. IMO innoculating your soil with BTI bits and laying out some sticky traps is a more effective way of dealing with gnats.


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## blazingserpents (Jan 10, 2015)

Use neem oil emulsified with silica (pro tekt) weekly for IPM


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## Mohican (Jan 10, 2015)

I have noticed that silica does help plants repel pests.


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## a senile fungus (Jan 10, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Do you have a mulch or some fresh soil to lay down over top of that?
> 
> As for the DE, I haven't had much luck using it as a pest deterrent. It really cakes up when it gets wet, and it tends to fly all over the place while you water. IMO innoculating your soil with BTI bits and laying out some sticky traps is a more effective way of dealing with gnats.



I don't have any mulch but I do have more soil...
Any recommended mulches? 

I have mosquito bits but I forgot to add them. Should they be crushed and powdered or just used in chunk form?

I went ahead and top dressed with the mix yesterday, and today I watered it in. The food grade DE just ran into the soil along with the oyster shell and the chunkier dolomite lime and gypsum was left behind. 

I had a major gnat problem in my trashcan, so I decided to try to pretreat the tent...


----------



## a senile fungus (Jan 10, 2015)

Also, @st0wandgrow can you link me that small RO unit that hooks up to the hose?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 10, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> I don't have any mulch but I do have more soil...
> Any recommended mulches?
> 
> I have mosquito bits but I forgot to add them. Should they be crushed and powdered or just used in chunk form?
> ...


I use a living mulch seed mix, but you could use many different things. Doing any trimming? Fan leaves work great.




a senile fungus said:


> Also, @st0wandgrow can you link me that small RO unit that hooks up to the hose?



http://m.homedepot.com/p/Perfect-Water-Technologies-Home-Master-Jr-F2-Elite-SinkTop-Water-Filtration-System-in-White-TMJRf2E/203841387/

.


----------



## Mohican (Jan 10, 2015)

The trim I added to the worm bin was not as deseeded as I thought:




Cheers,
Mo


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 12, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Our equal to Azamax is called Effect Eco Insect Control and I am with StOw here it is fantastic.
> StOws advice for Spinosad is solid bud. The ecomimsect spray mixes well with ludwigs or the Margaret Roberts, I mix it with the latter to make a spinosad based ludwigs type spray. It is your better option in flower although both are excellent. What makes ludwigs special is it is not a synthetic pyrethrin like the others, those are systemic and bad news. Spinosad is a totally organic by product of bacterial metabolic activity. It is beyond safe for you as a human.
> I disagree in a South African garden. Right now we have averages of 80RH and regular temps above 100. It is bug paradise. Spraying the soil is essential, best to turn to our arsenal of probiotics to do our best to rectify the situation. Our composts are not clean so our soils never are. How can I put this... it is Africa.


Much respect brother, you summed that up perfectly, i was probably reading up about the synthetic pyrethrin so that makes alot of sense, ive been away for 4 days and left my ladies with the auto watering system, i did spray them with a mixture of mgr organic insecticide & some fresh garden chillies soaked in water before i left although the thrips is still present. Bro so you rate Ludwigs with Spinosad is the best then ? I only have the margaret roberts so i dont mind buying other products if needed bro. As for the ladies the top growth looks really good but its just the bottoms that have thrips.

Temps over here have been crazy though bro my humidity gets lower but i definitely get the 100's often, ive also attached some pics of the ladies and some bottom leaf close ups, thank you brother.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 14, 2015)

So i got some ludwigs insect spray + , the garlic oil, canola oil & organic pyrethrins, i drenched the ladies and left all fans off, before i drenched them i also top dressed under the mulch with some good quality EWC, on the box it says its for thrips also so im hopeful the pyrethrins will K.O them quickly aswell as the gnats. Respect !


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## goodjoint (Jan 14, 2015)

Does anyone here soil drench using Azamax for a fungus gnat and/or root aphid problems? I know it's OMRI listed, but I'm wondering if a soil drench would have any ill effects to the good/beneficial microlife.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 14, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> Does anyone here soil drench using Azamax for a fungus gnat and/or root aphid problems? I know it's OMRI listed, but I'm wondering if a soil drench would have any ill effects to the good/beneficial microlife.



http://www.greenerhydroponics.com/Mosquito-Bits-30-oz-_p_80153.html


----------



## goodjoint (Jan 14, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> http://www.greenerhydroponics.com/Mosquito-Bits-30-oz-_p_80153.html


Thank you - The instructions don't say anything about soil drenching or applying it to water, and then watering with it. I've seen the Mosquito Dunks at the local hardware store, and heard about people dissolving one into a bucket of water and watering with it - would this have the same effect as the bits? The only reason I ask is because I need it now, and I can only buy Azamax or the mosquito dunks locally.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 14, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> Thank you - The instructions don't say anything about soil drenching or applying it to water, and then watering with it. I've seen the Mosquito Dunks at the local hardware store, and heard about people dissolving one into a bucket of water and watering with it - would this have the same effect as the bits? The only reason I ask is because I need it now, and I can only buy Azamax or the mosquito dunks locally.


I use the bits, but the dunks will be fine too. Just break them up a bit and top dress with them right before you water. I use a tablespoon or two for a 7 gallon container depending how bad the problem is.

Just to be clear, these are effective to eliminate gnats, but I don't think they would be helpful with aphids.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 14, 2015)

Just for the info goodjoint and everyone i diluted 30 ml of this pyrethrin,garlic&canola extract in 1 litre of water, i pretty much used the whole mixture on the 3 ladies and seedlings, i dont see any gnats at all, mad hamish was 100% when he said nothing comes close !


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## Mohican (Jan 15, 2015)

Worm bin is exploding!




Cheers,
Mo


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## ekim046 (Jan 15, 2015)

Hey guys, I post an update a few weeks back and I wanted to share an update now on our completely organic Scotts OG.
Day 42 of veg and links to the updates show the nutes amended in the soil. Let me know what you guys think!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 15, 2015)

ekim046 said:


> Hey guys, I post an update a few weeks back and I wanted to share an update now on our completely organic Scotts OG.
> Day 42 of veg and links to the updates show the nutes amended in the soil. Let me know what you guys think!



Looks good bro! The only thing that jumped out at me was the size of your container. In my experience I have found that early leaf drop/yellowing will happen when the roots run out of room. For whatever reason plants grown in an organically amended soil need more room to stretch their legs out.


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## ekim046 (Jan 15, 2015)

That makes sense. As I mentioned in the video, she was a happy accident, a mere seed in our grinder 
With that said. My one regret with this grow is the one gallon container. I'm really excited to make a video of the unveiling of her roots. I'm dying to see what she looks like under the soil. I also wish i had supplemental C02 but thats a different story entirely. I'll be sure to update you more the next few weeks and will post the root structure when shes all done!


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## Mohican (Jan 15, 2015)

Looks familiar!




Cheers,
Mo


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 15, 2015)

I love my organic Scotts og ladies!


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## Pattahabi (Jan 15, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Our equal to Azamax is called Effect Eco Insect Control and I am with StOw here it is fantastic.
> StOws advice for Spinosad is solid bud. The ecomimsect spray mixes well with ludwigs or the Margaret Roberts, I mix it with the latter to make a spinosad based ludwigs type spray. It is your better option in flower although both are excellent. What makes ludwigs special is it is not a synthetic pyrethrin like the others, those are systemic and bad news. Spinosad is a totally organic by product of bacterial metabolic activity. It is beyond safe for you as a human.
> I disagree in a South African garden. Right now we have averages of 80RH and regular temps above 100. It is bug paradise. Spraying the soil is essential, best to turn to our arsenal of probiotics to do our best to rectify the situation. Our composts are not clean so our soils never are. How can I put this... it is Africa.


What is Stow's advise for Spinosad bud? Spraying the soil with spinosad, even though the company that makes the product states in the MSDS that it can hurt beneficial insects? how about some neem, crab meal, karanja, rock dust in the soil? And that's great you disagree in a south african garden lmao. And exactly what bugs are you spraying the soil for? You doing this in your containers in the house? What's wrong with your compost? Are you not heating it to proper temps? That would kill any possible (but unlikely) pest insects.

Azamax uses one chemical out of 300+ in a neem tree. Mankind has only identified 118, but the hydro industry saw an opening to make money, so they exploited it. Why wouldn't you just use neem oil and get all the compounds?

Sad but true...

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 16, 2015)

Meant to attach this to my last post


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 16, 2015)

Got a planter question for you guys and girls! I'm upgrading my planters and am stuck between getting a 36x16x14 inch fabric planter or two 20 gallon fabric planters. 
I'm in a 4x2x5 ft tent with a 600 watt. I did the math and the single planter would be roughly over 29 gallons. Now, obviously the single planter will use less soil than the two circular ones, but would that ~11 gallons make a noticeable difference?
I feel that will that much room to stretch their legs my ladies would be fine. 
The pros of the singular planter to me are: Only one planter to water, meaning I'll water less; I'll have ample room to plant my aloe vera, spices, etc without adding planters; and I'll have the ability to arrange how I plant my ladies a lot more differently than if I had the smaller ones. 
The major cons being that once it's there, I'd be hard pressed to move it and the 14 inches of depth, which kind of scares me. 
No massive veg times, maybe two months tops if I have a really low ridding indica.


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## Mohican (Jan 16, 2015)

I would go with two.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 18, 2015)

Lmao. Wow.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 18, 2015)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> Lmao. Wow.



Good point


----------



## goodjoint (Jan 18, 2015)

Hello all, I'm battling a root aphid problem right now, but it's not a ROLS grow, I want to avoid these fuckers when my ROLS mix is done cooking. Will the neem cake, and the crustacean meal in the clakamas coots mix keep root aphids away?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 18, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> Hello all, I'm battling a root aphid problem right now, but it's not a ROLS grow, I want to avoid these fuckers when my ROLS mix is done cooking. Will the neem cake, and the crustacean meal in the clakamas coots mix keep root aphids away?


Neem and karanja are a great combo!


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## goodjoint (Jan 18, 2015)

I forgot that there's karanja in there too. Will this combo surely prevent root aphids?


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 18, 2015)

Hey all, so i been spraying my ladies before lights out quite often due to the thrips problem, been using the organic garlic,canola&pyrethrin oil to tackle the problem, i wanted to ask if anybody has had any experience using clove oil ? I was thinking of mixing it in with my last few sprays. Peace !


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jan 19, 2015)

silly troll. Hope everyone enjoyed the biochar workshops we put out this year. Nice being able to source excellent info from great people in new england.


----------



## bicit (Jan 19, 2015)

Anyone in here water or make compost tea with waste aquarium water? I'm finding surprisingly little info about doing so...

I set up a small 10gallon tank with some gold fish. Once its eco system build up a bit I'm going to water the garden with fish water, then replacing the water in the tank. A sort of disconnected aquaponic system in a way.


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## Mohican (Jan 19, 2015)

Should work well. Just make sure you are feeding the fish good food.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 19, 2015)

bicit said:


> Anyone in here water or make compost tea with waste aquarium water? I'm finding surprisingly little info about doing so...
> 
> I set up a small 10gallon tank with some gold fish. Once its eco system build up a bit I'm going to water the garden with fish water, then replacing the water in the tank. A sort of disconnected aquaponic system in a way.


There is a way to use aquarium waste!! I'll have to dig around for a while. But I believe you use a lactobacillus serum in combination with the water to break down all of the nutrients in said water for your plants.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 21, 2015)

Church Day 37 Flowering


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## DonPetro (Jan 21, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Church Day 37 Flowering


Looking good SS! Have you tried that particular variety before?


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 21, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Looking good SS! Have you tried that particular variety before?


Thank you bro, i havent tried the church yet, its my first indoor grow or lets say grow where im actually nurturing the plants, have you tried it bro >? Peace


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

So I need some advice from those who really know their stuff on lactobacillus as a soil drench. I may have made a big error or I'm just paranoid because of my ignorance. In my rush this morning of trying to smoke, eat, and water my ladies I accidentally watered them with an undiluted lactobacillus serum.. Literally realized it as I got done watering. Did I mess up or did I just waste a bunch of lacto?


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> So I need some advice from those who really know their stuff on lactobacillus as a soil drench. I may have made a big error or I'm just paranoid because of my ignorance. In my rush this morning of trying to smoke, eat, and water my ladies I accidentally watered them with an undiluted lactobacillus serum.. Literally realized it as I got done watering. Did I mess up or did I just waste a bunch of lacto?


Wow bro, how much lacto bacillus are we talking here ?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Wow bro, how much lacto bacillus are we talking here ?


Enough that I'm even reluctant to say.. About a little under a half gallon between ~10 gallons of soil.
I don't know how I didn't realize it either. I'm kicking myself this morning pretty hard.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

The worst part is that I water all of my house plants with the the container with the diluted mix in it and must have grabbed the wrong one when I started with my ladies.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 21, 2015)

I thought u used about a gallon so it aint too bad, i guess everybody else will confirm but i think the worst part is that you just wasted some of your lactos bro, i also did a stupid thing this morning, i switched off my main light and fan and kept the backup leds on for 10 minutes while cleaning my filters out then instead of switching my timer to auto i set it to on and left the lights on for an extra 3 hours, always paranoid that any such stress could just flip them all to hermie


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I thought u used about a gallon so it aint too bad, i guess everybody else will confirm but i think the worst part is that you just wasted some of your lactos bro, i also did a stupid thing this morning, i switched off my main light and fan and kept the backup leds on for 10 minutes while cleaning my filters out then instead of switching my timer to auto i set it to on and left the lights on for an extra 3 hours, always paranoid that any such stress could just flip them all to hermie


The growing paranoia is real! I've been stressing all morning. I'm hoping I just wasted it too, nothing worse than messing up in the last two weeks.
I've done that before. Left my tent open to look at my ladies, started cooking dinner and didn't realize it was lights off and had been for almost two hours.


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## bicit (Jan 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> There is a way to use aquarium waste!! I'll have to dig around for a while. But I believe you use a lactobacillus serum in combination with the water to break down all of the nutrients in said water for your plants.


I'd be very interested in what you pull up. Most of my search results end up as soil *vs* aquaponics, rather than a symbiotic relationship. Or how to build tea brewers with aquarium parts rather than brewing tea with fish water. A few scattered discussion topics, but nothing very substantial.

Question about fabric pots. Would 10 gallon pots be adequately sized for a 1 month veg with the no-till method?


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> The growing paranoia is real! I've been stressing all morning. I'm hoping I just wasted it too, nothing worse than messing up in the last two weeks.
> I've done that before. Left my tent open to look at my ladies, started cooking dinner and didn't realize it was lights off and had been for almost two hours.


The result would be interesting but from my perspective i dont think it can do any harm, you did add water after though right ? Lol hopefully they do just fine man, the extra 3 hours of light and heat were stressing me though, i should just go to bed earlier, sometimes i stay up studying till late and wake up like a total zombie trying to water and shit lol


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 21, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you bro, i havent tried the church yet, its my first indoor grow or lets say grow where im actually nurturing the plants, have you tried it bro >? Peace


I grew The Church for years. Nice hybrid smoke. Not the most powerful smoke ever, but really nice. It had such a lovely floral smell to it that carried over to the taste 100%.




Midwest Weedist said:


> So I need some advice from those who really know their stuff on lactobacillus as a soil drench. I may have made a big error or I'm just paranoid because of my ignorance. In my rush this morning of trying to smoke, eat, and water my ladies I accidentally watered them with an undiluted lactobacillus serum.. Literally realized it as I got done watering. Did I mess up or did I just waste a bunch of lacto?


I think you'll be fine. It's just microorganisms, which to my knowledge can't be over-done. It would be similar to using an undiluted compost tea. Those microbes that you cultured are beneficial and indigenous to your area, so I can't see any harm in what you've done.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

bicit said:


> I'd be very interested in what you pull up. Most of my search results end up as soil *vs* aquaponics, rather than a symbiotic relationship. Or how to build tea brewers with aquarium parts rather than brewing tea with fish water. A few scattered discussion topics, but nothing very substantial.
> 
> Question about fabric pots. Would 10 gallon pots be adequately sized for a 1 month veg with the no-till method?


I did some more digging on this and, while its not what I was looking for, thought you might find it interesting - usefulhttp://www.rollitup.org/t/fishtank-aquarium-water.63006/ 
I'm still looking for the specific thread that I found the suggestion of mixing the two together for a watering mix in. From what I remember the person claimed that mixing the two and letting it sit for a short period of a time helped to break down the nutrients in the aquarium water. But, I found this in a thread completely unrelated to that subject so I dunno if I'll find it. Though from what I've read, treating aquariums with lacto b is healthy for their ecosystem and allows more fish per gallon.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> The result would be interesting but from my perspective i dont think it can do any harm, you did add water after though right ? Lol hopefully they do just fine man, the extra 3 hours of light and heat were stressing me though, i should just go to bed earlier, sometimes i stay up studying till late and wake up like a total zombie trying to water and shit lol


Oh yeah, I immediately watered until it was fully saturated and produced run off. 
I feel ya. I sleep in some days and wake up in a panic trying to water my ladies and check temps.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 21, 2015)

Made some organic, marijuana infused pickled carrots.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 21, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I grew The Church for years. Nice hybrid smoke. Not the most powerful smoke ever, but really nice. It had such a lovely floral smell to it that carried over to the taste 100%.


Awesome man, definitely loving the smell and the calyx build up looks good and frosty, my other two strains are more sativa though way more hairy, nothing like the church though apparently this one is suppose to be a diesel. Respect


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 21, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Made some organic, marijuana infused pickled carrots.
> 
> View attachment 3336368 View attachment 3336369


Dude that looks good !!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Made some organic, marijuana infused pickled carrots.
> 
> View attachment 3336368 View attachment 3336369


Wow, I need to step my game up. That sounds amazing.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 21, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Awesome man, definitely loving the smell and the calyx build up looks good and frosty, my other two strains are more sativa though way more hairy, nothing like the church though apparently this one is suppose to be a diesel. Respect


That floral smell/taste you're referring to is something I've always loved when getting bud from someone else. Most people don't agree with me, but I love it. But I also love the earthy smells and tastes.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Wow, I need to step my game up. That sounds amazing.


Have you ever had pickled carrots before? They are sooooo good. Way better than pickled cucumbers IMO.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 21, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Have you ever had pickled carrots before? They are sooooo good. Way better than pickled cucumbers IMO.


from the salsa bar at a few Mexican restaurants.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 21, 2015)

hyroot said:


> from the salsa bar at a few Mexican restaurants.


Were those spicey? The ones I make uses the same brine as a normal jar of pickles. Vinegar, salt, garlic, dill, etc.


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Were those spicey? The ones I make uses the same brine as a normal jar of pickles. Vinegar, salt, garlic, dill, etc.


not spicey. But tastey. There's this one small chain (3 restaurants) called great mex I go to. They got great salsa. Best shrimp tacos anywhere. They always have to pickle the carrots. They tend to go fast. Everyone eats them .


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## Mohican (Jan 21, 2015)

Mezzetta has the pickled and the spicy. 







Homemade is always better!


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Jan 21, 2015)

well shit, might as well pickle the cannabis stalks too while we're at it...........hmmmm


----------



## legaleyes13 (Jan 21, 2015)

Hey guys, I've posted in this thread in the past thinking I was gonna start an organic run... Now I've finally come around to it.

But wanted to know what the point of using blumats is if I'm gonna constantly be watering with ACTs, SSTs and Nute teas when blumats can't water with said teas. I get that I can topdress with nute teas, but the other stuff makes it seem as if there's no point in using a blumats system... Am I offbase here?


----------



## earthling420 (Jan 22, 2015)

Can anyone confirm its better to dilute a SST? and what exactly is the best way to make one? the recipe on build a soil.com is different than the one on the first page of this thread.


----------



## Pattahabi (Jan 22, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Can anyone confirm its better to dilute a SST? and what exactly is the best way to make one? the recipe on build a soil.com is different than the one on the first page of this thread.


*Sprouted Seed Tea v2.0*

Jon Stika of _Brew Your Own Magazine_ describes malt as _“barley that has been sprouted to the point where enzymes are produced that will convert its starchy interior to sugar.”_ After the grain has been malted, the sugar is fermented by yeast to make beer.


This is an accurate overview of an article he wrote for those who want to make their own malt and here’s the Reader’s Digest version:

Weigh out 2 oz. of Barley seed and remove any foreign matter by the seeds into a large jar and fill it half-way with water and agitate to wash the barley. Pour off loose husks & dirt that float to the top. Drain in a colander. Repeat until everything has been removed.

Soak the seeds in water for 8 – 10 hours. Drain the seeds and weigh after completely draining the water off. Assuming you started with 56 grams, you want to hit a minimum of 84 grams at the end of these processes.

Let the Barley rest for 8 – 10 hours and then soak for another 8 hours, drain and weigh. Repeat if necessary but that’s not too unlikely.

Take a piece of cloth and you want to use something as ‘raw’ as possible like hemp cloth, organic cotton, linen, canvas, flax, etc. – just check with a large fabric store. If you buy a piece that is a square it probably helps or doesn’t.

Wet your cloth, wring out and fold it 2 times. During the rest cycles this is where you want to let the seeds rest. You want moisture surrounding the seeds but not water.

Once you hit 84+ grams, spread your seeds again in the middle of this folded piece of fabric, place that in a brown paper bag – 55F – 65F ambient temperatures will move this along quickly.

When the shoots inside the seed have grown the length of the seed you’re done. You’re not growing sprouts but rather activating the enzymes and the compounds in the endosperm as described in the post above.

Take these seeds and put them in a blender and some water and get it to a puree to the extent possible. Using 56 grams to start will give enough puree to make 5 gallons of tea.

Water your plants with this diluted tea. This will give you far, far more enzymes than the straight sprouting method. One thing about beer brewers is that they live & die by enzyme levels extracted from seeds and this article is cited on several home brew forums.

hth

P-


----------



## Mohican (Jan 23, 2015)

Thanks @Pattahabi !

Worm bin:



Cheers,
Mo


----------



## DonPetro (Jan 23, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Thanks @Pattahabi !
> 
> Worm bin:
> 
> ...


That thing is really taking off! Are you still feeding the worms as usual?


----------



## Mohican (Jan 23, 2015)

That trash can is almost pure worm food! 

The plants all had super long stretchy stalks except for one so they got pulled:



Cheers,
Mo


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jan 24, 2015)

Mohican said:


> That trash can is almost pure worm food!
> 
> The plants all had super long stretchy stalks except for one so they got pulled:
> 
> ...


Yeah EWC makes for very lanky plants if you is too much. I mix EWC and compost in a 1:5 ratio these days works very nicely. Pure castings will grow monsters if you stake them as they go


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 24, 2015)

Gotta love that ewc stretch x] 
I've had a few ladies do that from having too much in my mix.


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## hyroot (Jan 24, 2015)

straw or cover crop?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 24, 2015)

hyroot said:


> straw or cover crop?


I actually have both in use in my notill planters currently. My clover seed goes down and then I drop about a half inch or less of straw. It retains moisture more than a cover crop alone. I feel as if it adds more diversity to your planter when it mulches as well.


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## smokey the cat (Jan 26, 2015)

Mohican said:


> That trash can is almost pure worm food!
> 
> The plants all had super long stretchy stalks except for one so they got pulled:
> 
> ...


Is that can made of galvanised steel - you ever worry about introducing weird zinc oxides or something into the mix?

I know zinc coated roofing iron is commonly used for rainwater collection without issue. Just wondering how it handles the crazy enzymes and acids that are present in healthy compost.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jan 26, 2015)

smokey the cat said:


> Is that can made of galvanised steel - you ever worry about introducing weird zinc oxides or something into the mix?
> 
> I know zinc coated roofing iron is commonly used for rainwater collection without issue. Just wondering how it handles the crazy enzymes and acids that are present in healthy compost.


Good point. Gonna look this up myself and see what comes out... but it counts for compost and most materials, nothing is really designed with microbial by products in mind now is it?...


----------



## Mohican (Jan 26, 2015)

I have studied this issue and if people are taking zinc the doctors recommend taking copper because it can deplete your copper somehow. I give copper and iron in higher doses in the galvanized containers. I do worry about the oils used in metal production. I give the tubs a good scrub before using.

Here is my first try in the same metal trashcan wrapped with a bamboo skirt - Holy Smoke Malawi Gold:











Cheers,
Mo


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 26, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I have studied this issue and if people are taking zinc the doctors recommend taking copper because it can deplete your copper somehow. I give copper and iron in higher doses in the galvanized containers. I do worry about the oils used in metal production. I give the tubs a good scrub before using.
> 
> Here is my first try in the same metal trashcan wrapped with a bamboo skirt - Holy Smoke Malawi Gold:
> 
> ...


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 26, 2015)

Church at day 45, think i got about 11 days left on this lady.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 26, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I have studied this issue and if people are taking zinc the doctors recommend taking copper because it can deplete your copper somehow. I give copper and iron in higher doses in the galvanized containers. I do worry about the oils used in metal production. I give the tubs a good scrub before using.
> 
> Here is my first try in the same metal trashcan wrapped with a bamboo skirt - Holy Smoke Malawi Gold:
> 
> ...


That is fucking gorgeous


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 27, 2015)

Only days left on these ladies, I hate waiting. I also tried my hand at making Charas. The taste is unbelievable but it takes forever and yields hardly anything.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 27, 2015)

Dank dank dank ! nice one midwest ! Shit i cant wait to harvest man.

I need to go away for a few months after this harvest & i was wondering if any of you came accross some methods of auto curing in jars ? I was looking at some methods that use a air pump and some valves, maybe my best cheapest shot ?


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## AllDayToker (Jan 27, 2015)

Hey can someone help me out here. Looked at my plant today they got these damn spots on em. If anything I know it's some kind of deficieny, I don't feed her often.

Here are a couple pics. She was flipped on the 2nd of Dec. For age.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 27, 2015)

If you can get past the stage of drying and the first stage of burping your jars you can throw in some Boveda Humidipaks. I used to use them for the entire cure, now I just use them for the long term portion. 
Thank you!! I'm counting down the days (4) until it's chop time! 


SouthernSoil* said:


> Dank dank dank ! nice one midwest ! Shit i cant wait to harvest man.
> 
> I need to go away for a few months after this harvest & i was wondering if any of you came accross some methods of auto curing in jars ? I was looking at some methods that use a air pump and some valves, maybe my best cheapest shot ?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 27, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Hey can someone help me out here. Looked at my plant today they got these damn spots on em. If anything I know it's some kind of deficieny, I don't feed her often.
> 
> Here are a couple pics. She was flipped on the 2nd of Dec. For age.


Nitrogen toxicity perhaps? Is that strain known for throwing natural reds like that?


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## AllDayToker (Jan 27, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Nitrogen toxicity perhaps? Is that strain known for throwing natural reds like that?


Yeah the red is normal. I actually just fed it some fish emulsion a couple days ago so it could be nitrogen toxicity.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Only days left on these ladies, I hate waiting. I also tried my hand at making Charas. The taste is unbelievable but it takes forever and yields hardly anything. View attachment 3340216 View attachment 3340218 View attachment 3340220 View attachment 3340221


Almost there bro, damn that little chara you made looks awesome man lol, u need huge outdoor plants for charas at the end of the day to get a decent amount, bro are boveda humidipaks like silica gel packs basically ? Shit im stressing as what to do : / Harvesting my Church in 10 days, cant wait to see how she going to look then, heads seem dank and compact for a sativa dominant wow finally clean weed where i know exactly whats been put in and on. Next grow my tent is going to be a serious jungle with some seriously awesome genetics,


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## PSUAGRO. (Jan 28, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Hey can someone help me out here. Looked at my plant today they got these damn spots on em. If anything I know it's some kind of deficieny, I don't feed her often.
> 
> Here are a couple pics. She was flipped on the 2nd of Dec. For age.


your tips show that their not hungry.......the patterns (veins) rule out pests..........leaning towards fungal


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## AllDayToker (Jan 28, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> your tips show that their not hungry.......the patterns (veins) rule out pests..........leaning towards fungal


Alright. Yeah I had two on my other thread say possible pest I was going to check my soil real good in a bit here to see if I find anything.

If it's fungal how would I go about treating?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 28, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Almost there bro, damn that little chara you made looks awesome man lol, u need huge outdoor plants for charas at the end of the day to get a decent amount, bro are boveda humidipaks like silica gel packs basically ? Shit im stressing as what to do : / Harvesting my Church in 10 days, cant wait to see how she going to look then, heads seem dank and compact for a sativa dominant wow finally clean weed where i know exactly whats been put in and on. Next grow my tent is going to be a serious jungle with some seriously awesome genetics,


Thanks! Yeah I definitely wish I had an outdoor field so I could make Charas! That would be awesome
I believe they're just salt and water, as they can both remove and add rh to the container they're in. What I've learned is that if you use them and jar too soon, you'll have to cure longer and you may sacrifice some taste. But they're great for automating the last portion of the cure.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 28, 2015)

I think I have it figured out, but has anyone ever lost their smell in the last leg of flowering? I'm on day 59 of a 55-65 day strain and this morning when I woke up there was almost no smell at all. Which is horrifying because these Scotts og ladies are always super strong smelling. Like walk in my house and smell them through a carbon filter strong.
I'm assuming it has to do with heat, the last couple days have been between 75-82 instead of 72-78. I've moved my light up in hopes of replicating the lack of light that occurs in fall.
Another thought I've had is that maybe it's time to harvest? I've had a northern lights lady that lost its smell completely when I flowered her a week longer than recommend, but these Scotts ogs I've always taken to 65.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 28, 2015)

increase brix levels. Molasses / carbs. Enhances smell / flavor.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Jan 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think I have it figured out, but has anyone ever lost their smell in the last leg of flowering? I'm on day 59 of a 55-65 day strain and this morning when I woke up there was almost no smell at all. Which is horrifying because these Scotts og ladies are always super strong smelling. Like walk in my house and smell them through a carbon filter strong.
> I'm assuming it has to do with heat, the last couple days have been between 75-82 instead of 72-78. I've moved my light up in hopes of replicating the lack of light that occurs in fall.
> Another thought I've had is that maybe it's time to harvest? I've had a northern lights lady that lost its smell completely when I flowered her a week longer than recommend, but these Scotts ogs I've always taken to 65.


Northern light is a known strain for its low smelling profile. Also it can be because you yourself got so used to the smell. Don't worry it's there. It will come out even more after a nice dry and cure.


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## PSUAGRO. (Jan 28, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright. Yeah I had two on my other thread say possible pest I was going to check my soil real good in a bit here to see if I find anything.
> 
> If it's fungal how would I go about treating?


If you confirm it's not pests or a def; how's the new growth look like?.............their are plenty of effective organic fungicide recipes on the web; personally I use neem/rosemary oil with a drop of organic(TJ) dish soap.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 28, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Northern light is a known strain for its low smelling profile. Also it can be because you yourself got so used to the smell. Don't worry it's there. It will come out even more after a nice dry and cure.


I'm sure my paranoia is partially to blame, I'll find out when I go home for lunch today, but even my gf noticed it when we woke up. Usually we both wake up and give each other that look of "omg can you smell that".


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> increase brix levels. Molasses / carbs. Enhances smell / flavor.


In rols notill situations, is it okay to add carbs in the last week? I'm still trying to get past the mentality of flushing. I usually give them a molasses watering once every week or two. Though it has been about that long since their last carb feeding.


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## hyroot (Jan 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> In rols notill situations, is it okay to add carbs in the last week? I'm still trying to get past the mentality of flushing. I usually give them a molasses watering once every week or two. Though it has been about that long since their last carb feeding.


I do a seed sprout tea or plain water. An sst has sugars too. With a soil mix. Even though flushing is pointless with organics. With a soil mix, watering with plain water doesn't really flush. Nutes are in the soil and there's no salt build up.

the sst is also a metabolic enhancer breaking shit down faster too


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I do a seed sprout tea or plain water. An sst has sugars too. With a soil mix. Even though flushing is pointless with organics. With a soil mix, watering with plain water doesn't really flush. Nutes are in the soil and there's no salt build up.
> 
> the sst is also a metabolic enhancer breaking shit down faster too


Thank you for clearing that up! It's hard to break free of old ideas, especially when transitioning from non Organics. 
I've never bothered with an sst, from lack of knowledge. But I probably have everything I need to make an sst already. I have the hardware to aerate water and thousands of clover seeds. Could I use these seeds in say a mason jar, with carbon filtered water to sprout them? I'm familiar with the process of removing the growth inhibitors with a pre soak. But other than that I'm fairly uncertain of the specifics.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Thank you for clearing that up! It's hard to break free of old ideas, especially when transitioning from non Organics.
> I've never bothered with an sst, from lack of knowledge. But I probably have everything I need to make an sst already. I have the hardware to aerate water and thousands of clover seeds. Could I use these seeds in say a mason jar, with carbon filtered water to sprout them? I'm familiar with the process of removing the growth inhibitors with a pre soak. But other than that I'm fairly uncertain of the specifics.


I never had good experience sprouting clover seeds in water. It may be my seeds. I sprout mung beans for my sst's. @Pattahabi posted the recipe back a page or 2.


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think I have it figured out, but has anyone ever lost their smell in the last leg of flowering? I'm on day 59 of a 55-65 day strain and this morning when I woke up there was almost no smell at all. Which is horrifying because these Scotts og ladies are always super strong smelling. Like walk in my house and smell them through a carbon filter strong.
> I'm assuming it has to do with heat, the last couple days have been between 75-82 instead of 72-78. I've moved my light up in hopes of replicating the lack of light that occurs in fall.
> Another thought I've had is that maybe it's time to harvest? I've had a northern lights lady that lost its smell completely when I flowered her a week longer than recommend, but these Scotts ogs I've always taken to 65.


Got gypsum?
Negative pressure?

75* isn't hot enough to stop flowering focus (~78*) 
It is hot enough to affect terpene profiles, though,
especially if the root zone isn't able to regulate the temp / cool her.

What about the inline fan and carbon filter, its on too strong? 
We use dimmer switch, and keep it lowlow until room warmed up. 
High once warm.
Then on to very low setting each 'night'.

And are you using a 60x scope or so, to scope the trichs?
May be cloudy (starting to degrade) or completely popping

Good luck, 
thats a nice strain, mon
I'll gladly take a gram or two for volun-consulting!
haha


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

hyroot said:


> increase brix levels. Molasses / carbs. Enhances smell / flavor.


brix be bit of a medium-rare topic these days
..no sugar daddy, just a sugar situation, lol

"Increase the brix level in your garden. The result will be healthier plants, _less insect pressure, better taste,_ better nutrition, and a longer shelf life"

i remember the brix game, for pc, such a good puzzle game.
both chicks and brix, every lunch, both 5th grade, and 6th. haha
classic.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Thanks! Yeah I definitely wish I had an outdoor field so I could make Charas! That would be awesome
> I believe they're just salt and water, as they can both remove and add rh to the container they're in. What I've learned is that if you use them and jar too soon, you'll have to cure longer and you may sacrifice some taste. But they're great for automating the last portion of the cure.


Would be really awesome, ive seen how people make it but probably never even smoked the real thing, okay i see what you mean bro, so no possible way of using a clean baggie thats tightly sealed and making my own ? Dont think they sell boveda packs on this side of the world, ill have to do more intense googling & calling though. I wouldnt want to sacrifice taste though, how long after ive harvested and dried would you recommend though bro ? Respect


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 29, 2015)

Brilliant info Don, always appreciate your detailed explanations, makes alot of sense though, i guess some strains are more tolerant to heat during the flowering stages but some that are used to flowering in more colder temperate climates tend to not like it. 

Very keen to get two dimmer switches on a thermostat for my next run though, DIY mission, one dimmer on high one on low or even better a thermostat that can automatically dim and heighten the speed of the fan by %. 

To increase your brix level does this mean that you need more diverse organic material in the garden? Respect bro


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 29, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Brilliant info Don, always appreciate your detailed explanations, makes alot of sense though, i guess some strains are more tolerant to heat during the flowering stages but some that are used to flowering in more colder temperate climates tend to not like it.
> 
> Very keen to get two dimmer switches on a thermostat for my next run though, DIY mission, one dimmer on high one on low or even better a thermostat that can automatically dim and heighten the speed of the fan by %.
> 
> To increase your brix level does this mean that you need more diverse organic material in the garden? Respect bro


Brix levels are simply a measurement of dissolved solids in the sap/fluid of the plant. The more dissolved solids, the higher the brix reading. From what I've read you want to go pretty heavy on minerals to achieve these elevated numbers. Rock fines, kelp meal, azomite, etc. These minerals can be applied to the soil (and take quite some time to be processed and taken up by the plant) or can be applied via foliar. IMO you hear people talking about how the soil "gets better" as it ages.... this is simply a function of the mineral content not being bio-available in the first run of a no-till, and becoming more and more available in subsequent runs.


----------



## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> If you confirm it's not pests or a def; how's the new growth look like?.............their are plenty of effective organic fungicide recipes on the web; personally I use neem/rosemary oil with a drop of organic(TJ) dish soap.


So how much neem oil and rosemary oil do you use per gallon?


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## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> So how much neem oil and rosemary oil do you use per gallon?


I use ~50 drops neem oil per 750 ml spray bottle and one drop of soap...
that can foliar over 20 plants and a dawg still tosses some out..

Rosemary is a bonus


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## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> I use ~50 drops neem oil per 750 ml spray bottle and one drop of soap...
> that can foliar over 20 plants and a dawg still tosses some out..
> 
> Rosemary is a bonus


Oh so you don't water with it?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 29, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Got gypsum?
> Negative pressure?
> 
> 75* isn't hot enough to stop flowering focus (~78*)
> ...


The mix these ladies are in do not have gypsum in it. I've gotten my tent down to about 70 - 72 now while lights are on. 
Negative pressure? As in if it's a sealed room with no/little intake? If so, no. I used to leave my tent completely closed but now I've set it up to vent at the bottom at an equal rate as my 200cfm fan pulls air through my cf. When lights are off I have a little 100cfm inline fan, though in actuality its probably more like 50cfm, that pulls through my filter. 
I use a 30x jewlers loupe, which I want to get a USB 200x scope or whichever magnification level the model was that I was looking at. I'm able to see mostly cloudy except for some of the trichomes in the folds and recesses of the caylces, leaves, etc. I'll be pulling them Saturday morning. My girl has the day off so I'm going to train her to trim properly. Gotta love a girl that wants to help with the meticulous stuff (=

This strain has been a favorite of mine for about a year and a half now since an acquaintance showed me his hydro grown stuff. 
You wouldn't happen to live a bit South of the famous windy city, would you?


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Brix levels are simply a measurement of dissolved solids in the sap/fluid of the plant. The more dissolved solids, the higher the brix reading. From what I've read you want to go pretty heavy on minerals to achieve these elevated numbers. Rock fines, kelp meal, azomite, etc. These minerals can be applied to the soil (and take quite some time to be processed and taken up by the plant) or can be applied via foliar. IMO you hear people talking about how the soil "gets better" as it ages.... this is simply a function of the mineral content not being bio-available in the first run of a no-till, and becoming more and more available in subsequent runs.


Stow know something bout er'thang, ay? Haha

Gotta have Mineral density baby.. Calcium being the one they talk about most it commonly refers to the copper, manganese, and iron, too.

Brix also refers to the amount of covalent bonding and amount of carbs in juices.

Greensand, Epsom salts, molasses, compost, rock dusts, all very good stuff, mon, but Stow Know, foliar the fastest, soil can take some time, some elements not very mobile..

A quote from OneGramPerWat (diff. forum):

"It's not about the NPK, its about the Ca and P atoms coming together to form a molecule the microbes love to eat...the plant creates carbs which it exudes out of the roots feeding micro as well."


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 29, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Would be really awesome, ive seen how people make it but probably never even smoked the real thing, okay i see what you mean bro, so no possible way of using a clean baggie thats tightly sealed and making my own ? Dont think they sell boveda packs on this side of the world, ill have to do more intense googling & calling though. I wouldnt want to sacrifice taste though, how long after ive harvested and dried would you recommend though bro ? Respect


I think the specific membrane like paper material they use is necessary for the proper moisture exchange. I'm not sure how Amazon works on a global scale, but I do know they sell them on there. Maybe I could give you a link?
In my experience, which I should note that I don't have high wattage hids / leds so my buds aren't dense by commercial standards, after the normal 7-14 days of drying and the initial cure of probably a week or so, you'd be safe. I do use a hygrometer in my jars so I go by rh% more than time. I usually aim for sub 68 percent before I drop the boveda packs in.


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Oh so you don't water with it?


Not at all, my online friend.
@DonPetro would kill me. Hahaha. Plus neem oil is VERY STRONG smelling.. Even when diluted.

'They' do say to mist spray topsoil when having a thrips or gnats outbreak after letting it dry out at least a full inch on top... Their larvae falls to the soil once mature enough (as well as scared adults) but if hit with neem oil, all future generations be rendered sterile.. 
Only on bad pests though. Not ladybugs, microbes, etc. that's why I use so little soap. 2 drop max.

Just shake bottle before each plant so mix emulsifies, dawg.

You gonna be golden..

DT


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> The mix these ladies are in do not have gypsum in it. I've gotten my tent down to about 70 - 72 now while lights are on.
> Negative pressure? As in if it's a sealed room with no/little intake? If so, no. I used to leave my tent completely closed but now I've set it up to vent at the bottom at an equal rate as my 200cfm fan pulls air through my cf. When lights are off I have a little 100cfm inline fan, though in actuality its probably more like 50cfm, that pulls through my filter.
> I use a 30x jewlers loupe, which I want to get a USB 200x scope or whichever magnification level the model was that I was looking at. I'm able to see mostly cloudy except for some of the trichomes in the folds and recesses of the caylces, leaves, etc. I'll be pulling them Saturday morning. My girl has the day off so I'm going to train her to trim properly. Gotta love a girl that wants to help with the meticulous stuff (=
> 
> ...


Amen about the helping woman...good for you!

So you got pretty much everything covered.. 
Trimming,
temps,
air flow,
Since you don't have gypsum maybe some lightly Brix infused molasses water would be pimp choice. I see reactions the next day, more frost etc. worm castings now will make er burn hot but since there's no way or need to flush in organics anyway, I'd Brix that soil up a bit. 

I'd pop a few crystals down low and see if they reak, the more smell the less molasses I'd use
(Tsp per plant in water)

Interesting, in all of India, the culture is to worship the water they drink for at least 8 still hours, either in brass or copper goblets.

Scientifically proven now...
Water has memory and under a microscope you can see what kind of thought it is holding.. Chaotic stress vs peaceful love.. 
Water molecules, including their texture, actually change, depending on the energy, intent, and obstacle course it went through, all play big roles, (or more specifically, how recently it went through an obstacle course.)

In their farming studies, they increased yields 22% with 'happy water' or decreased the amount needed to water by ~40%.

The water studies are broken down by the infamous Sadhguru in his Inner Engineering series. Very interesting


----------



## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Not at all, my online friend.
> @DonPetro would kill me. Hahaha. Plus neem oil is VERY STRONG smelling.. Even when diluted.
> 
> 'They' do say to mist spray topsoil when having a thrips or gnats outbreak after letting it dry out at least a full inch on top... Their larvae falls to the soil once mature enough (as well as scared adults) but if hit with neem oil, all future generations be rendered sterile..
> ...


Alright thanks. One more thing. 

I'm about 6 to 7 weeks into flower, will this be OK for the foliar spray will the buds be alright? I'll just be spray one plant she's a bigger one in a 10g pot.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 29, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Amen about the helping woman...good for you!
> 
> So you got pretty much everything covered..
> Trimming,
> ...


I'll give them a light molasses watering this afternoon (= it's so nice having such knowledgeable people in one area, even if it's just virtual!
I was actually aware that water holds a memory, I wasn't aware of the extent though! That's an eye opener for sure. Maybe it's a good thing I have a happy plant filled house and not just for aesthetical reasons
I typically bubble all of my water 12 hours minimum before using it. Even if it's ro or carbon filtered. I started using my bubble hash water recently to water them and either I'm seeing a massive placebo affect or plants / soil LOVE that stuff. I've got one lady, not any of my Scotts ogs, but a Panama Red gal that I've been giving a mix of bubble water and small amounts of lacto bacillus and molasses, that I bubble together for an hour then feed. The soil seems to love it as even my clovers grow like wild when I use it. Makes me sad I have no more bubble water lol


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## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

Haha, amen again!
Pays to pool..big time.

As for water, its amazing, mon, you got it.
can even use rusty water for Fe defiency..
or soak clean quarters and dimes and use it to treat a Cu deficiency!
The chemistry!
Just don't forget to add love to the females 
And feminine or lunar energy to the non sexed..
Perhaps that is why Gage Green loves their full moons,
And why the Dons have had higher rate of females from male-female seed lately than we have had successful clones (~88% females vs ~50% survival rate)

Note to self, never add neem oil water to clones.. Guess that's one reason they say throw it out what you don't use. Haha. 

Good thing I didn't drink from it like I do every other watering device in the garden... Haha.


----------



## Mohican (Jan 29, 2015)

If the smell is gone then yes you are probably done. LA Con was dank and cheesy and then boom the smell dialed down big time. I harvested and the scissors barely got sticky. It was a waxy resin. Still not bad:



I waited longer because they were seeded and I wanted all of the seeds to mature.




Cheers,
Mo


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 29, 2015)

So what's the consensus on containers? How many of you guys are using fabric pots, and how many are using plastic ones? I've been rocking the plastic containers for years, but I'm starting to wonder what benefits would come from the fabric containers?? Obviously more air to the root zone would be a plus, but with that more frequent watering would be a must. I shudder at the thought of *more* time being devoted to this.... but if the ladies will benefit then I should probably suck it up and take the plunge.

For those of you using fabric pots, which brand would you recommend? Is there much difference between brands?


----------



## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

Will spraying the neem oil on my buds be alright? I'm bout 6 to 7 weeks into flower.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Will spraying the neem oil on my buds be alright? I'm bout 6 to 7 weeks into flower.


Man, I wouldn't mess with spraying anything on the buds that far in to flower. That's asking for mold IMO


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright thanks. One more thing.
> 
> I'm about 6 to 7 weeks into flower, will this be OK for the foliar spray will the buds be alright? I'll just be spray one plant she's a bigger one in a 10g pot.


Very good question. Avoid the buds if poss.
Depends on whether its 6 to 8 wk bud or say 10wk plus I'd say..

Neem is better used early as a preventative but it will knock out thrips and certain pests quick fast and leave em sterile without harming other life. And it's effects last about a week and builds up the more its used.
So I would spray only if having a confirmed pest break out and didn't have other options ..example: herbs like cinnamon, clove, thyme and didn't have diatomaceous earth rocks ..

If you do spray neem (tree) oil, let it dry but then start misting and cleaning it off for about 5 days. 
You don't want it on your final bud!

That said at this time i'd avoid it if you can but remember it also helps eczema so it can't be thaaat bad.

If you have spider mites and Co2, they can't handle over 5000ppm Co2 for 30 mins. Pretty cool. Also fish oil, rosemary oil (10%) and sesame oil work, but who wants to smoke fish Kush!? Not me!

Picking the flavour of control more wisely now,
DT


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 29, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Haha, amen again!
> Pays to pool..big time.
> 
> As for water, its amazing, mon, you got it.
> ...


You keep blowing my mind. Coins and rusty water? I can definitely see how that would work but I'd never have imagined it on my own I would suspect. That's an ingenious idea. 
I've always taken the claims that come with the lunar cycle with a tiny grain of salt, though I think the salt is mostly dissolved now, so to speak. After enough reading it's more and more common to find science agreeing with such claims. I need to read more on the subject to be able to apply any knowledge though.


----------



## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

I'm spraying for a fungal probably, no pest.

I just don't know if they'll finish it's progressing rapidly.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> So what's the consensus on containers? How many of you guys are using fabric pots, and how many are using plastic ones? I've been rocking the plastic containers for years, but I'm starting to wonder what benefits would come from the fabric containers?? Obviously more air to the root zone would be a plus, but with that more frequent watering would be a must. I shudder at the thought of *more* time being devoted to this.... but if the ladies will benefit then I should probably suck it up and take the plunge.
> 
> For those of you using fabric pots, which brand would you recommend? Is there much difference between brands?


I'll never go back to anything that isn't a fabric pot. The growth difference in my experience is huge. I see a slightly faster growing plant with denser, fuller bud structures in fabric as opposed to a "closed" container or even say one with a slew of holes drilled in. They do dry out faster, much actually, but with the right size and cover crop I think it's negligible in comparison. I think brand only matters in regards to price. Maybe stich quality


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 29, 2015)

Anyone here have a strong argument either for or against a darkness period of more than 12 hours before harvest? I've never noticed a difference, but then again I've never had a side by side comparison either


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> So what's the consensus on containers? How many of you guys are using fabric pots, and how many are using plastic ones? I've been rocking the plastic containers for years, but I'm starting to wonder what benefits would come from the fabric containers?? Obviously more air to the root zone would be a plus, but with that more frequent watering would be a must. I shudder at the thought of *more* time being devoted to this.... but if the ladies will benefit then I should probably suck it up and take the plunge.
> 
> For those of you using fabric pots, which brand would you recommend? Is there much difference between brands?


Really well-aerated plastics are strong but hard to read like a smart pot.. I love the root hair development and lack of bottom-spun roots on the fibres, too, bro..
but I find they need either more tea (and we like to try do water only) or a misting at least once if not twice a day is best, once when lights on, and again, if not a hassle, 8 hours later, otherwise the topsoil or sides will start to crunch up fairly quick. All the fabric is, is 100% polyester.. It's the thickness that matters. All of em are opaque but it would help retain more water of thicker..

That said, little pot sized trays on castors with a few inches of siding would allow one to put a moisture wicking substance in the bottom, say perlite, since no one likes it much but has it, and get the best of both worlds.. Max roots, Easy to move, with less watering..

I think the fabrics are good enough to try flower in, better to solve the watering issue. Vs going plastic. 

I'm thinking of building some wooden pots out of say 1x6 with 2x2 in corners ..on wheels that have strips of smart fabric in between the wooden spaces... Then have a smart pot inside it, fenced in. That way it would get to be in fabric but would have a double layer preventing over evaporation.

Could have everything on wheels with no plastic in the room. 
Hmm..


----------



## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

Here are some more pictures of the problem I'm facing. So far the only good answer I got was a fungal infection so got some neem oil.


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone here have a strong argument either for or against a darkness period of more than 12 hours before harvest? I've never noticed a difference, but then again I've never had a side by side comparison either


I think consistency is key, and 100% total darkness for that 12 hours is far more important than extra darkness before harvest. Better for not hermy'ing. 

But maybe you have other motives.. frost?
i would get colder at night the last few nights and use cooler water for colour enhancing.. 14*C Ro h2o on last day for example. 

Me, I would sooner experiment with far red light to induce flowering faster or recover from emergency wake up (helps resume flowering faster instead of waiting the two hours for the hormones to switch back)

But that said I'm open to any good info on the subject. Just haven't been convinced yet..


----------



## st0wandgrow (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Here are some more pictures of the problem I'm facing. So far the only good answer I got was a fungal infection so got some neem oil.



Those could just be root bound ADT. I've had some similar looking deficiencies from plants that get root bound late in flower


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## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Those could just be root bound ADT. I've had some similar looking deficiencies from plants that get root bound late in flower


So you don't think it's any neem oil will help with?

Well it seems to be moving pretty fast I'm afraid it'll start getting to the bud you know.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> So you don't think it's any neem oil will help with?
> 
> Well it seems to be moving pretty fast I'm afraid it'll start getting to the bud you know.


What's the anticipated flowering time? If it's an 8-10 week strain then I think it is what it is. If anything I'd start with a compost tea. Your best bet to sort out anything soil related is to send the microbes in strong. I'd brew up a tea, and then follow that up with a few water-only waterings, then maybe another compost tea. You're so close to the finish line I'd hate to see you over-reach here and mess up what will likely be perfectly fine bud. The plant may limp to the finish line but the buds will likely be unscathed.


----------



## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> What's the anticipated flowering time? If it's an 8-10 week strain then I think it is what it is. If anything I'd start with a compost tea. Your best bet to sort out anything soil related is to send the microbes in strong. I'd brew up a tea, and then follow that up with a few water-only waterings, then maybe another compost tea. You're so close to the finish line I'd hate to see you over-reach here and mess up what will likely be perfectly fine bud. The plant may limp to the finish line but the buds will likely be unscathed.


It'll finish around 9 weeks flower, at least that's when it was in the past. Flipped her on December 2nd.

I do got a compost tea I was about to feed tonight.

Alright well at least now I got neem oil on hand if I need it. I'll just load her up with microbes and hope for the best.

You always got that's answers man, much appreciated.


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## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Here are some more pictures of the problem I'm facing. So far the only good answer I got was a fungal infection so got some neem oil.


Most problems affect new growth, this here looks like new growth is healthiest, eliminating many..

I was gonna say manganese at first cause of middle necrosis but leaf veins stay green.. The veins do yellow though with a K deficiency. Yellow veins, Older leaves affected first, dark leaves, petioles turning purple .. Yep looks like you just got a K problem. Some strains use more. If its your tallest plant that are the worst then for sure it's potassium.

If so, be happy. Although making your plant ugly, it will not effect growth or yield like other deficiencies do..

2 things, wait.. 3:
-cold weather slows K
-salts (Na) displace K
-To Keep calm, burn cron..

Best of luck,
DT


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

@AllDayToker Agreed, don't over react, dawg, especially if just a K issue.
Plant won't recover look wise anyway, even if you use a fast acting solution like wood ashes or K-Si-something..

If you have any chunks of wood or coco shell in your compost, check it for pests.. Breeding ground / early indicator for mites or thrips right there. If good, then your tea should be a safe, IMMACULATE BOOST


st0wandgrow said:


> What's the anticipated flowering time? If it's an 8-10 week strain then I think it is what it is. If anything I'd start with a compost tea. Your best bet to sort out anything soil related is to send the microbes in strong. I'd brew up a tea, and then follow that up with a few water-only waterings, then maybe another compost tea. You're so close to the finish line I'd hate to see you over-reach here and mess up what will likely be perfectly fine bud. The plant may limp to the finish line but the buds will likely be unscathed.


----------



## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Most problems affect new growth, this here looks like new growth is healthiest, eliminating many..
> 
> I was gonna say manganese at first cause of middle necrosis but leaf veins stay green.. The veins do yellow though with a K deficiency. Yellow veins, Older leaves affected first, dark leaves, petioles turning purple .. Yep looks like you just got a K problem. Some strains use more. If its your tallest plant that are the worst then for sure it's potassium.
> 
> ...


Thanks for all the help brotha.

Going to load up a,bowl and feed some tea to the lady.

My basic microbe tea is just molasses and ewc.


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## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

Mohican said:


> If the smell is gone then yes you are probably done. LA Con was dank and cheesy and then boom the smell dialed down big time. I harvested and the scissors barely got sticky. It was a waxy resin. Still not bad:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So this is your waxy, seeded, SHITTier bud!? Looks lovely!! Canada could use some Mo' energy!! Should Become an Asian or H.A.!!! Lol


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## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Thanks for all the help brotha.
> 
> Going to load up a,bowl and feed some tea to the lady.
> 
> My basic microbe tea is just molasses and ewc.


You helping me stay sharper, too, bra..np

And that's one helluva recipe imo..
Ima match you on the bowl.. Tea time was yesterday. Other than that we in sync, G.


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2015)

Take a look at the underside of the leaves with a microscope. Russet mites are microscopic and can cause that kind of damage.


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## AllDayToker (Jan 29, 2015)

Saw nothing under the scope so all good there. So that's good.


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2015)

@AllDayToker - Yay - That is good news!

@DonTesla - What is H.A.?


----------



## genuity (Jan 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> So what's the consensus on containers? How many of you guys are using fabric pots, and how many are using plastic ones? I've been rocking the plastic containers for years, but I'm starting to wonder what benefits would come from the fabric containers?? Obviously more air to the root zone would be a plus, but with that more frequent watering would be a must. I shudder at the thought of *more* time being devoted to this.... but if the ladies will benefit then I should probably suck it up and take the plunge.
> 
> For those of you using fabric pots, which brand would you recommend? Is there much difference between brands?


As long as you use the same mix,as you do with the reg pots...you may have to water every two days,instead of three...

I use gro pro bags,better than most of the ones I have used.
The more soil/worm casting,the less the water will run out the sides of the pots.
So you may need to up the size of your trays.


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## Mohican (Jan 29, 2015)

You can also put your cloth pots in a container a few inches bigger and add perlite or pumice and this will help keep them from drying out as fast and also acts like a hempy.


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 29, 2015)

genuity said:


> As long as you use the same mix,as you do with the reg pots...you may have to water every two days,instead of three...
> 
> I use gro pro bags,better than most of the ones I have used.
> The more soil/worm casting,the less the water will run out the sides of the pots.
> So you may need to up the size of your trays.


TY gen. That's good stuff to know. Watering every second day I can live with


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## DonTesla (Jan 29, 2015)

Mohican said:


> @AllDayToker - Yay - That is good news!
> 
> @DonTesla - What is H.A.?


They are the commercial dispensers for much of usa/Canada's cannabis mon, I believe they are angels of some sort haha.

Just saying that if there were some organic guys at the top of the underworld or wherever the place of impact is, you know..
It'd be more than good.

Call me John Lennon, but..Too much recreational Reggie doing more harm than good on every city's streets...could you imagine a world full of co-ops (not cops) where Stow, The Dons, you, positivity, all these good cats could pool together and help communities produce all organic herbs and fruits and veggies for their people.. An educational, coconut and cannabis based revolution free of 'cides .. and fluoride for that matter.. A natural awakening.

A big rise up. The only one world organization the world ever needs is an organic, food based one that of course includes medicinal herbs

Shit, everyone knows that!
(No they don't)

Edit:
As for mites, good point, double headed deficiencies requiring accurate diagnosis.
Aim sharp


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## RedCarpetMatches (Jan 29, 2015)

Home sweet home. Been too long. Miss the dirty talk. Starting up a quick cook with old stuff I had laying around. Using pro mix, pumice, and some kind of undecided humus. I have alfalfa, kelp, neem cake, dolo, potash, crab shell, and some Grokashi that I have yet to try. Anyone think I'm good enough on the macros...I can always top dress later.

PS Stow,
O-H

No VC ready yet. Have you grow bros ever heard or tried this http://ecoscraps.com


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## OGEvilgenius (Jan 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Man, I wouldn't mess with spraying anything on the buds that far in to flower. That's asking for mold IMO


Especially not neem oil.

I find the worries of mold on buds are overblown if you have a decent setup but it can definitely happen so no need to risk it.

I have some thoughts on the fabric - get really big ones. The sizes I've seen quoted are actually not quite as big as they say. Like a 1 gallon container seemed to hold more than a 1 gallon air pot. I guess it might vary on manufacturer. But you'll get more root mass too using them properly. As a result I think deficiencies are more likely unless you compensate with pot size.

I'm finding bigger is better in general with the RLOS method.


----------



## OGEvilgenius (Jan 30, 2015)

genuity said:


> As long as you use the same mix,as you do with the reg pots...you may have to water every two days,instead of three...
> 
> I use gro pro bags,better than most of the ones I have used.
> The more soil/worm casting,the less the water will run out the sides of the pots.
> So you may need to up the size of your trays.


Oh yea that too... can be messy. I think best suited to a blumat or drip watering system of some kind if you're used to hand watering like I am. I used them in the past but lately I'm just tranplanting into my oversized plastic containers from cups.


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## DonTesla (Jan 30, 2015)

Always smart to not treat a (nutrient) deficiency like a (pest) outbreak or vice versa, lol.


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## AllDayToker (Jan 30, 2015)

Well I'm on the fabric pot side.

In my own experience the plants roots use more of the space available in smart pots compared to plastic. I also noticed that getting rootbound is difficult and I have never seen a circle of roots at the bottom of my soil ball when it comes out.

Side by side I saw a bigger plant come out of a 5g smart pot then a 5g bucket, same veg time, strain, everything.


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## AllDayToker (Jan 30, 2015)

Couple more pics of the 8ball before lights out. It's been 59 days from flip. Hairs are starting to turn. I think you're all right, she should be able to make it to the finish with none of the issues running into the buds.


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## OGEvilgenius (Jan 30, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Well I'm on the fabric pot side.
> 
> In my own experience the plants roots use more of the space available in smart pots compared to plastic.  I also noticed that getting rootbound is difficult and I have never seen a circle of roots at the bottom of my soil ball when it comes out.
> 
> Side by side I saw a bigger plant come out of a 5g smart pot then a 5g bucket, same veg time, strain, everything.


They're superior you just have to water more and they can be messier. In short, I am lazy.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 30, 2015)

RedCarpetMatches said:


> Home sweet home. Been too long. Miss the dirty talk. Starting up a quick cook with old stuff I had laying around. Using pro mix, pumice, and some kind of undecided humus. I have alfalfa, kelp, neem cake, dolo, potash, crab shell, and some Grokashi that I have yet to try. Anyone think I'm good enough on the macros...I can always top dress later.
> 
> PS Stow,
> O-H
> ...


The only thing I'd suggest would be something like azomite or basalt, maybe some greensand.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 30, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> I think consistency is key, and 100% total darkness for that 12 hours is far more important than extra darkness before harvest. Better for not hermy'ing.
> 
> But maybe you have other motives.. frost?
> i would get colder at night the last few nights and use cooler water for colour enhancing.. 14*C Ro h2o on last day for example.
> ...


I've always read that keeping your ladies in darkness for 24 hours, 36, 48, etc can boost trichome production and or force the plant to consume the rest of any nutrients left in her. I've found only anecdotal claims though, no scientific evidence. 
I like the idea of dropping temps to bring out colors. I actually dropped my room to about 70 this morning and I'll keep them at like 65 during the night. I also really like your idea of watering with cold water. I'm going to do just that tonight. 
I can't wait to harvest these gals tomorrow. 

As for red lighting, I've actually been looking for a bulb / fixture / combo whatever. That throws out both uva, uvb, and the specific red spectrum (it's like 700 something or other, I forget the unit of measurement) that cannabis sees. I want to blast them with uv rays as well as those far reds for 15 / 20 minutes every day before lights off. My hopes is that it would make the flowering stage slightly shorter or at least just bulk up resin production from the uvs. I feel as if I'm on a wild goose chase for that sort of combination of lighting though lol. I need to just suck it up and shell out the obscene amount of cash for a good led system... One day, one day.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 30, 2015)

OGEvilgenius said:


> They're superior you just have to water more and they can be messier. In short, I am lazy.


They are a lot messier, I agree. I've been trying to come up with a way to make a drain tray for mine. My tent catches all of the water but I'd really rather avoid having to clean as much as I do after harvest. 

Has anyone ever tried watering their notill fabric containers from the bottom? I feel as if that would provide a more even moisture retention if you got the amount of h2o down right.


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## Pattahabi (Jan 30, 2015)

Thought some might find this interesting:

*Neem Oil*
Neem oil is pressed from the seeds of the neem tree. It is perhaps the most important of the commercially available products of neem. We source our neem oil from India where the trees grow in their native conditions. Our neem oil is manufactured in a patented Indian traditional method without heat, chemicals or petrochemicals which assures the highest quantity of the following active ingredients. Our oil has been analysed and contains:
*Azadirachtin: 3410 ppm
Nimbin: 5272 ppm
Salanin: 7610 ppm *
Neem oil is not used for cooking purposes but in Ayurvedic, Unani and folklore traditional medicine, it has been used to treat a wide range of afflictions. More recently neem oil is known for its ability to help with various skin conditions.
*Neem oil can solidify at low temperatures. If this happens, immerse the container in warm water – warm, not hot! 85°F (30°) is plenty. Heat destroys the active ingredient, azadirachtin.*
Neem oil does not mix with water. You have to add an emulsifier. (An emulsifier is a substance that allows oil and water to mix.)

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Jan 30, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Thought some might find this interesting:
> 
> *Neem Oil*
> Neem oil is pressed from the seeds of the neem tree. It is perhaps the most important of the commercially available products of neem. We source our neem oil from India where the trees grow in their native conditions. Our neem oil is manufactured in a patented Indian traditional method without heat, chemicals or petrochemicals which assures the highest quantity of the following active ingredients. Our oil has been analysed and contains:
> ...


Huh. My son gets dry skin behind his knees (not sure if its eczema) so I should try using some neem oil. Any idea if regular neem oil for gardening would be OK or is there a food grade alternative that would be better suited as a topical ointment?


----------



## Mohican (Jan 30, 2015)

Cold just changes the fan leaves color. Your buds won't look any different.

LA Confidential:








Cheers,
Mo


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Jan 31, 2015)

@adt................didn't realize how far into flower you where, stupidity on my part........I wouldn't foliar/apply anything at this point , including neem, as it is systemic..........let it ride out grower

be safe


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 31, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Cold just changes the fan leaves color. Your buds won't look any different.
> 
> LA Confidential:
> 
> ...


I like the color changes for aesthetics. I take pictures of all my harvests for my "portfolio". I have a photographer friend that's going to start taking pictures for me with her new $1,000+ macro lens! She's drooling at the chance to shoot something like trichomes


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## Mohican (Jan 31, 2015)

Lucky!


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## SouthernSoil* (Feb 1, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Brix levels are simply a measurement of dissolved solids in the sap/fluid of the plant. The more dissolved solids, the higher the brix reading. From what I've read you want to go pretty heavy on minerals to achieve these elevated numbers. Rock fines, kelp meal, azomite, etc. These minerals can be applied to the soil (and take quite some time to be processed and taken up by the plant) or can be applied via foliar. IMO you hear people talking about how the soil "gets better" as it ages.... this is simply a function of the mineral content not being bio-available in the first run of a no-till, and becoming more and more available in subsequent runs.


Interesting indeed bro, i wanted to add some rock dust to my ladies mix but didnt want to mess with the recipes, i did add rock dust to my veggie garden a while ago and i totally see where you coming from though, as it ages it gets better, sad one for me though because ill have to let this 1st generation mix go, next run ill prefer using pumice though & some of my own made EWC. Wow its amazing how much you learn though, especially with good people like this organic bunch over here ! thank you bro, respect.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 1, 2015)

I wonder whether putting rock dust in a strong acid would make some of the minerals available sooner? Like soaking eggshell in vinegar to dissolve the calcium.


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 1, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I wonder whether putting rock dust in a strong acid would make some of the minerals available sooner? Like soaking eggshell in vinegar to dissolve the calcium.


Why would you want to incorporate a strong acid into the mix?.........honest ???

reducing size(coffee grinder/etc.) would make it available faster ............still would be a slow uptake process I imagine


----------



## Mohican (Feb 2, 2015)

Hahaha! Sorry - dilute the solution after you have dissolved the minerals for a week in a glass jar. 

I used this method with vinegar and steel wool for my gardenias at the old house. Dried out the rusty steel wool clump and buried them in the soil. They loved the acid and iron. Was taught this trick by a Hawaiian gardener who used rusty items in his garden to keep a constant supply of iron going to the soil. 

Cheers,
Mo


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think the specific membrane like paper material they use is necessary for the proper moisture exchange. I'm not sure how Amazon works on a global scale, but I do know they sell them on there. Maybe I could give you a link?
> In my experience, which I should note that I don't have high wattage hids / leds so my buds aren't dense by commercial standards, after the normal 7-14 days of drying and the initial cure of probably a week or so, you'd be safe. I do use a hygrometer in my jars so I go by rh% more than time. I usually aim for sub 68 percent before I drop the boveda packs in.


I see what you mean bro, that paper must be very specific, unfortunately it looks like amazon is the only place i can get it from and by the time it arrives it will be way too late for me bro, ill probably have to chop everything this coming friday, diesel sativa is at a nice size but unfortunately the grapey strain seems to have halted its bud growth, hairy small heads which smell like a dream but she is probably a 12 weeker and going down at 8. Learn a incredible amount with this first grow.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Hahaha! Sorry - dilute the solution after you have dissolved the minerals for a week in a glass jar.
> 
> I used this method with vinegar and steel wool for my gardenias at the old house. Dried out the rusty steel wool clump and buried them in the soil. They loved the acid and iron. Was taught this trick by a Hawaiian gardener who used rusty items in his garden to keep a constant supply of iron going to the soil.
> 
> ...


Mad ! thats one awesome way of recycling old steel ! Nice one Mo


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've always read that keeping your ladies in darkness for 24 hours, 36, 48, etc can boost trichome production and or force the plant to consume the rest of any nutrients left in her. I've found only anecdotal claims though, no scientific evidence.
> I like the idea of dropping temps to bring out colors. I actually dropped my room to about 70 this morning and I'll keep them at like 65 during the night. I also really like your idea of watering with cold water. I'm going to do just that tonight.
> I can't wait to harvest these gals tomorrow.
> 
> As for red lighting, I've actually been looking for a bulb / fixture / combo whatever. That throws out both uva, uvb, and the specific red spectrum (it's like 700 something or other, I forget the unit of measurement) that cannabis sees. I want to blast them with uv rays as well as those far reds for 15 / 20 minutes every day before lights off. My hopes is that it would make the flowering stage slightly shorter or at least just bulk up resin production from the uvs. I feel as if I'm on a wild goose chase for that sort of combination of lighting though lol. I need to just suck it up and shell out the obscene amount of cash for a good led system... One day, one day.


Gotta love the final watering..

I'm sure you will solve your lighting goal ..just a couple mins of far reds are supposed to (e rosenthal, oaksterdam textbook) shave up to 1.5-2 hours off each night by activating the flowering hormones faster.

Most the DIY led guys go with all whites after all their intense research (since blue and red are in the 4000k etc). But I say a far red light is sick. Ten watts for ten mins a night can signal things significantly faster apparently. I gotta try it too..
Bu first finish these 4 DIY panels..


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Hahaha! Sorry - dilute the solution after you have dissolved the minerals for a week in a glass jar.
> 
> I used this method with vinegar and steel wool for my gardenias at the old house. Dried out the rusty steel wool clump and buried them in the soil. They loved the acid and iron. Was taught this trick by a Hawaiian gardener who used rusty items in his garden to keep a constant supply of iron going to the soil.
> 
> ...


Interesting Mo, heard of the nails thing; same deal I guess.............can't control the supply rate either, surprising it doesn't ever hit toxic levels. Never messed with gardenias...... can't smoke or eat it


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## OGEvilgenius (Feb 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I wonder whether putting rock dust in a strong acid would make some of the minerals available sooner? Like soaking eggshell in vinegar to dissolve the calcium.


This would be an interesting experiment.

I'm sure if you bathed it in a microbe bath it would help a bit.


----------



## CannaBare (Feb 3, 2015)

Hey everyone I have a dilemma. One of my plants started to throw bananas the other day and I have decided to chop it. The buds are pretty big and I want to mulch with the whole plant. Any ideas how I can go about doing that? Is the THC ok for the soil?

Thanks!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 3, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Gotta love the final watering..
> 
> I'm sure you will solve your lighting goal ..just a couple mins of far reds are supposed to (e rosenthal, oaksterdam textbook) shave up to 1.5-2 hours off each night by activating the flowering hormones faster.
> 
> ...


Oh I will somehow. I'll probably go with a diy led panel if I can find a solid build plan; I'm fairly handy with minor electrical work. 
Have you (or anyone else reading this) had any experience with using those small wattage led bulbs that throw off far red spectrum light? I want to give it a try but I don't want to shell out for larger equipment without some first-hand experience.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 3, 2015)

CannaBare said:


> Hey everyone I have a dilemma. One of my plants started to throw bananas the other day and I have decided to chop it. The buds are pretty big and I want to mulch with the whole plant. Any ideas how I can go about doing that? Is the THC ok for the soil?
> 
> Thanks!


How many weeks into flower are you? 
And no, a whole plant would certainly not harm the soil. A mulch or compost pile would love it. If you have a worm bin they would really love it.


----------



## CannaBare (Feb 3, 2015)

Almost 5 weeks. Thanks will do asap


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## SouthernSoil* (Feb 3, 2015)

Hey guys, could i ask do you guys trim off your leaves before or after drying ? Should i dry for about 5 days and then put them in paper bags ? Any help or brief description of the process will be lovely ! Peace & Respect


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 3, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey guys, could i ask do you guys trim off your leaves before or after drying ? Should i dry for about 5 days and then put them in paper bags ? Any help or brief description of the process will be lovely ! Peace & Respect


I take off the large fan leaves, and trim the tips of the smaller leaves around the buds if they don't contain any trichomes (I use the frosty trim to make hash). I then hang them to dry until they're a bit crispy to the touch. This takes anywhere from 5-10 days depending on the time of year and RH. If you're unsure bend a stem.... if it snaps take them down. If it's still pliable and just bends, they might need another day or two of drying.

I then remove the nugs from the branches and jar them. You can clean them up at this point if you want prior to jarring too. Once jarred check on them a couple times a day. If they feel "soft" as opposed to crispy leave the jar open for a few hours or dump them out on to a tray or in to a paper bag for a while until they feel crispy again. Repeat this process until you feel that they are adequately dried. This burping process usually only takes a couple days until you have them dialed in for long term storage.


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## SouthernSoil* (Feb 3, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I take off the large fan leaves, and trim the tips of the smaller leaves around the buds if they don't contain any trichomes (I use the frosty trim to make hash). I then hang them to dry until they're a bit crispy to the touch. This takes anywhere from 5-10 days depending on the time of year and RH. If you're unsure bend a stem.... if it snaps take them down. If it's still pliable and just bends, they might need another day or two of drying.
> 
> I then remove the nugs from the branches and jar them. You can clean them up at this point if you want prior to jarring too. Once jarred check on them a couple times a day. If they feel "soft" as opposed to crispy leave the jar open for a few hours or dump them out on to a tray or in to a paper bag for a while until they feel crispy again. Repeat this process until you feel that they are adequately dried. This burping process usually only takes a couple days until you have them dialed in for long term storage.


Thank you bro, ill do the stem bending trick aswell every now and then, would it be recommended to hang the buds in the tent with the fan on low ? Or should i just put them in a cardboard box possibly with two 3" fans extracting and blowing ? or shouldnt i use fans at all bro ? Want to try keep as much THC as possible here : ) Respect


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 3, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you bro, ill do the stem bending trick aswell every now and then, would it be recommended to hang the buds in the tent with the fan on low ? Or should i just put them in a cardboard box possibly with two 3" fans extracting and blowing ? or shouldnt i use fans at all bro ? Want to try keep as much THC as possible here : ) Respect


I think it depends on the humidity that you're dealing with, and how dense the bud is. If humidity is low, I wouldn't use a fan at all. Just let them dry on their own time. If you have 60%+ humidity then some air flow might be a good idea, but not blowing directly on the buds.... just circulating some air throughout the room.

I have one strain that I like to break the buds apart from the cola because it is so dense and bud rot will set in if just left to hang. You'll get a feel for it over time, but IMO you should err on the side of caution and make sure they dry properly (even if it is done a bit too quick) to avoid bud rot/mold.

What's the humidity and temp like right now in your corner of the world?


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 3, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I think it depends on the humidity that you're dealing with, and how dense the bud is. If humidity is low, I wouldn't use a fan at all. Just let them dry on their own time. If you have 60%+ humidity then some air flow might be a good idea, but not blowing directly on the buds.... just circulating some air throughout the room.
> 
> I have one strain that I like to break the buds apart from the cola because it is so dense and bud rot will set in if just left to hang. You'll get a feel for it over time, but IMO you should err on the side of caution and make sure they dry properly (even if it is done a bit too quick) to avoid bud rot/mold.
> 
> What's the humidity and temp like right now in your corner of the world?


Thank you again bro, at the moment The Church is the most dense out of all, she seems very extremely compact and dense her hairs are about 50% amber now, the other more sativa strains are dense but not as much, ill keep them without a fan but ill keep one aside incase it rains and the humidity rises, i think breaking them apart from the cola is a good way to ensure they dry evenly aswell , my humidity in the room is about 30% now it doubles when it starts raining but i think it should be good without a fan for now bro.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 3, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you again bro, at the moment The Church is the most dense out of all, she seems very extremely compact and dense her hairs are about 50% amber now, the other more sativa strains are dense but not as much, ill keep them without a fan but ill keep one aside incase it rains and the humidity rises, i think breaking them apart from the cola is a good way to ensure they dry evenly aswell , my humidity in the room is about 30% now it doubles when it starts raining but i think it should be good without a fan for now bro.


Air movement is a good idea. You just don't want a fan blowing directly at your hanging plants.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 3, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Air movement is a good idea. You just don't want a fan blowing directly at your hanging plants.


Awesome bro, i understand what you mean, been checking the hairs on the church and she looks about 50/50 with brown hairs, not sure if i should let her go a few days more heres a pic : ) 





Thank You bro


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 3, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Awesome bro, i understand what you mean, been checking the hairs on the church and she looks about 50/50 with brown hairs, not sure if i should let her go a few days more heres a pic : )
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Beautiful! Nice work mate!

How many days of 12/12 you at? If I remember correctly my Church keeper came down around day 60


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 3, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Beautiful! Nice work mate!
> 
> How many days of 12/12 you at? If I remember correctly my Church keeper came down around day 60


Respect bro, im sitting at 53 days now, i should take some shots of the other ladies though !


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 3, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Respect bro, im sitting at 53 days now, i should take some shots of the other ladies though !


Looking real nice! If you can i would for sure let her go a little longer though.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 3, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Looking real nice! If you can i would for sure let her go a little longer though.


Thank You Don, ill let her go a little longer bro, didnt do too bad seeing as she's in a pot under 3 gal next run 6 for sure !


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 3, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you bro, ill do the stem bending trick aswell every now and then, would it be recommended to hang the buds in the tent with the fan on low ? Or should i just put them in a cardboard box possibly with two 3" fans extracting and blowing ? or shouldnt i use fans at all bro ? Want to try keep as much THC as possible here : ) Respect


To keep max thc harvest at right time, lol..
then be gentle and minimalistic. If keeping bud for long time personal use you may want to leave uv-protective leaves so hanging is best..
Otherwise a second trim once crispy will make lots of brittle trichs fall, so a better trim when moist over a glass plate is wise..

The curing process is after harvest but before drying/burping/sweating..

The buds can stay alive for 3 days.. Converting complex carbs back into simple sugars and changing colour (breaking down chlorophyll) IF they retain moisture..

Buds keep curing best at 15-21*C and 50% humidity. Some dispensaries in Co do 55%..
45-55% humidity when curing will continue metabolic cell processes..
Below** 40 and they stop, essentially this is a "drying humidity."

Know your herbal ladies too, light hollow stems cure and dry faster than than dense, pithy ones..

Enjoy!!


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 3, 2015)

Oh yea, and be bit careful, much of the plant, up to 30% is terpenes..extremely medicinal terpenes evaporate at low temps, so keep it below 22*C

I think 21*C is Perfect for dense sensi, since mold is best suited to 10-20*C
If you have decent air exchange, even if say only several times a day, or more airy sativas, then you shouldn't even worry one bit.

Sunlight is your enemy
Then the incadecant bulbs and plastic..
Darkness and glass, your friend, mon


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 3, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Air movement is a good idea. You just don't want a fan blowing directly at your hanging plants.


Right. in the room, circulating, good.
Or on a screen, over glass, covered with a sheet of brown paper. Good.
Especially if you have em.


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 3, 2015)

I know this isn't plant problems but there are several familiar faces here and I'm pretty sure this is my first Rols fuck up.

I transplanted/watered them Sunday and this morning this little tyke looked like hell. Overwatered? Very soft stem and the leaves are not brittle.

  

Btw these are Roma seedlings not ganga


----------



## Mohican (Feb 3, 2015)

Bad plant? Everything else looks OK.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 4, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> I know this isn't plant problems but there are several familiar faces here and I'm pretty sure this is my first Rols fuck up.
> 
> I transplanted/watered them Sunday and this morning this little tyke looked like hell. Overwatered? Very soft stem and the leaves are not brittle.
> 
> ...


Tomatoes can look quite crap as youngsters. Did you buy F1? If not then expect massive variation, as in colossal.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 4, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I take off the large fan leaves, and trim the tips of the smaller leaves around the buds if they don't contain any trichomes (I use the frosty trim to make hash). I then hang them to dry until they're a bit crispy to the touch. This takes anywhere from 5-10 days depending on the time of year and RH. If you're unsure bend a stem.... if it snaps take them down. If it's still pliable and just bends, they might need another day or two of drying.
> 
> I then remove the nugs from the branches and jar them. You can clean them up at this point if you want prior to jarring too. Once jarred check on them a couple times a day. If they feel "soft" as opposed to crispy leave the jar open for a few hours or dump them out on to a tray or in to a paper bag for a while until they feel crispy again. Repeat this process until you feel that they are adequately dried. This burping process usually only takes a couple days until you have them dialed in for long term storage.





SouthernSoil* said:


> Thank you bro, ill do the stem bending trick aswell every now and then, would it be recommended to hang the buds in the tent with the fan on low ? Or should i just put them in a cardboard box possibly with two 3" fans extracting and blowing ? or shouldnt i use fans at all bro ? Want to try keep as much THC as possible here : ) Respect


Drying is completely dependant on your environment. I typically have anywhere from 30% - 60% rh with temps between 65 and 72 in my area that I dry. My last harvest from this past weekend I stripped all of my fan leaves off and then hung them in cardboard boxes (My closest is full of boxes full of weed lol). I check every two days for edge dryness of the buds and smell. As long as they're throwing off that hay smell I keep them boxed up - usually between 7 and 14 days depending on bud density - until they get crispy and smell more like primo bud than hay, then it's into the jars with a hygrometer after dry trimming the sugar leaves. I don't know why people say dry trimming is a pita, I find wet trimming to be just as tedious and frustrating. I keep my fan leaves on because I've had an issue with not being able to keep moisture in them long enough to get rid of the chlorophyll, starches, etc.


Scotch089 said:


> I know this isn't plant problems but there are several familiar faces here and I'm pretty sure this is my first Rols fuck up.
> 
> I transplanted/watered them Sunday and this morning this little tyke looked like hell. Overwatered? Very soft stem and the leaves are not brittle.
> 
> ...


Probably just a Bunk seed, I wouldn't worry about it too much. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one popping veggie beans! I've got bell peppers going in my kitchen currently.


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 4, 2015)

Sprinkled some oatmeal on top of my soil.

Now I've got this colony of fungus on there. White fuzz.

Do I turn the soil over now or wait?


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 4, 2015)

Thanks guys thought I may have watered too much, but the others had relatively the same amount. Yea midwest I'm trying to do some salsa this year!


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 4, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Sprinkled some oatmeal on top of my soil.
> 
> Now I've got this colony of fungus on there. White fuzz.
> 
> Do I turn the soil over now or wait?


Depends on your end goal for your soil, if youre ready to plant, and plant preference I think.. Me I like to have a couple different recipes around..
You can save a tiny container in case you want to try a fungal tea later, and turn it in gently in as few turns as possible..unless you need to aerate, then use the opportunity to get in those corners. Good Bacteria can thrive in destroyed fungal networks too.

If you wanna keep this colony thriving you can sprinkle some rice or more meal in the bare parts/corners..or turn this one in build a new one. Usually light or mist will stunt them anyway..


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 4, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I don't know why people say dry trimming is a pita, I find wet trimming to be just as tedious and frustrating.


Agreed. I've tried trimming every which way possible and I have settled on trimming when the buds are dry as the easiest way of doing it. If you trim while they're still wet then hang them I find that they dry out too quickly.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 4, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Thanks guys thought I may have watered too much, but the others had relatively the same amount. Yea midwest I'm trying to do some salsa this year!


When is your cannabis season starting?


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 4, 2015)

Exactly 100 days as of today. :]


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 4, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Exactly 100 days as of today. :]


 nice can't wait too see u back in the game. Have u been sober this whole time?

I'm currently in full veg mode. My plan is too cover up a 10x8' with 6 plants (40gallons each) scrog in the next two months.

Pics coming soon!

Btw hope your done with them bottles!


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 4, 2015)

Lol I toked on my b day back in November. It's about every 6 weeks I get called in, they threw me a curve ball that time and called me day 20. The good news is I can be clean in less than 3 weeks ha. I was shittin my pants. TG. Haven't dicked around since. 

I'll be bringing some Gogi and sunshine daydream to the table as long as I have a Blumat System to cover me on the honeymoon. If not I'm gonna plant freebies I didn't pay for. We were originally planned 7 days but now we're lookin at 4. Save us close to 2 grand. :O I'm stoked for that Gogi gonna keep any pollen and cross those SOBs

Can't wait to see that lush green from what you have planned brother. Always looking forward to your beauts. 

I did ditch the bottles, only things left are ful-power nitrozyme aqua shield Annd that should be it. My protekt froze on me so I'll be Makin some with agsil once I source it. 

Hope you're doing well man!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 4, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Lol I toked on my b day back in November. It's about every 6 weeks I get called in, they threw me a curve ball that time and called me day 20. The good news is I can be clean in less than 3 weeks ha. I was shittin my pants. TG. Haven't dicked around since.
> 
> I'll be bringing some Gogi and sunshine daydream to the table as long as I have a Blumat System to cover me on the honeymoon. If not I'm gonna plant freebies I didn't pay for. We were originally planned 7 days but now we're lookin at 4. Save us close to 2 grand. :O I'm stoked for that Gogi gonna keep any pollen and cross those SOBs
> 
> ...


Nice! I'm growing both Gogi and SSDD right now. I love both of them but the Gogi makes me a scatter brained moron.

Gogi

 

SSDD

 

Have fun on your honeymoon. Hopefully Aunt Flo doesn't show up!


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 4, 2015)

Lol no doubt! Worst possible timing. Is that pic of the Gogi yours? ! I Googled it to show the lady and saved it to my phone because I loved it so much. I love me a great sativa but I also want a comfortable stone, the flavor of the ssdd sounds soo Damn good, but so does that strawberry Gogi. Gah I dono which I'm stoked for more. I have skylotus and dreambeaver on the back burner too. Figured I could cross the skylotus with the Skywalker Kush I have from RP and hit Skywalker close to home. Then maybe kosher Kush and Gogi. And jilly, annnnd ace of spades lol. By the end of it I'm gonna have a lot of running to do.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 4, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Huh. My son gets dry skin behind his knees (not sure if its eczema) so I should try using some neem oil. Any idea if regular neem oil for gardening would be OK or is there a food grade alternative that would be better suited as a topical ointment?


I'm not 100% sure, but if I was a gambling man, I'd say the stuff you use in your garden (especially Ahimsa) would be fine to use. I have also used and seen recipes for neem oil soap and it's really nice stuff. You can buy the soap at neem resource among other places.

P-


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 4, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Lol no doubt! Worst possible timing. Is that pic of the Gogi yours? ! I Googled it to show the lady and saved it to my phone because I loved it so much. I love me a great sativa but I also want a comfortable stone, the flavor of the ssdd sounds soo Damn good, but so does that strawberry Gogi. Gah I dono which I'm stoked for more. I have skylotus and dreambeaver on the back burner too. Figured I could cross the skylotus with the Skywalker Kush I have from RP and hit Skywalker close to home. Then maybe kosher Kush and Gogi. And jilly, annnnd ace of spades lol. By the end of it I'm gonna have a lot of running to do.


Yeah that pic is of a Gogi I chopped a couple weeks ago.

Man, you've got a nice assortment of strains. You're gonna love the SSDD. It's one of the best Indica's I've grown.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 4, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Air movement is a good idea. You just don't want a fan blowing directly at your hanging plants.


Will make sure there is some airflow indirectly blowing bro thank you : )


DonTesla said:


> Right. in the room, circulating, good.
> Or on a screen, over glass, covered with a sheet of brown paper. Good.
> Especially if you have em.


Awesome bro, would a porcelain plate maybe do the trick aswell ? 



DonTesla said:


> Oh yea, and be bit careful, much of the plant, up to 30% is terpenes..extremely medicinal terpenes evaporate at low temps, so keep it below 22*C
> 
> I think 21*C is Perfect for dense sensi, since mold is best suited to 10-20*C
> If you have decent air exchange, even if say only several times a day, or more airy sativas, then you shouldn't even worry one bit.
> ...


Bro did you mean terpenes evaporate at high temperatures or low temperatures ? Cause im going to struggle getting temps below 26c here, ill definitely try see what glass i can get my hands on though. Would ice cubes help with cooling and humidity possibly ? Respect


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 4, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Will make sure there is some airflow indirectly blowing bro thank you : )
> 
> 
> Awesome bro, would a porcelain plate maybe do the trick aswell ?
> ...


Terpenes are volatile even at room temp.

That's why you can smell stinky weed from across the room as soon as the jar is opened.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 4, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Terpenes are volatile even at room temp.
> 
> That's why you can smell stinky weed from across the room as soon as the jar is opened.


For sure man, i understand what you guys are saying, just trying to work out ways of keeping them in that temperature range i could keep the air conditioner on for the whole drying period but thats going to be a bit overboard. should i not possibly dry them in a box and add some ice cubes with a small fan ? might cause too much humidity though


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 4, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Cool thread. I hear if you soak your undies in Eagle20 you can get vigor like Ron Jeremy in 1985.
> 
> Cascadian Frost
> 
> ...



How did you like that Cascadian Frost? I ordered a pack but never got around to popping them because the Zazen I grew didn't impress me that much. Should I give em a go?


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 4, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Will make sure there is some airflow indirectly blowing bro thank you : )
> 
> 
> Awesome bro, would a porcelain plate maybe do the trick aswell ?
> ...


26 is hot buddy, yeah that will bake some aromatic organ-fixing terpenes into the air, but you will survive.
21 is the magic temp imo. Lower ok if mold not concern. Terpenes evap at high temps. Even medium high, bro

You can freeze dry but I haven't learned enough to help on the subject with any authority.

Porcelain is ok if paint doesn't come up off it when scraped with a razor, but dollar stores have them and that way you can collect the trichs that fall. 

I used my tablet one time to see how much I was losing.
You do lose some primo trichs, more the more potent..so
Glass is nice, but I'd just get it for next time if its a hassle.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 4, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> 26 is hot buddy, yeah that will bake some aromatic organ-fixing terpenes into the air, but you will survive.
> 21 is the magic temp imo. Lower ok if mold not concern. Terpenes evap at high temps. Even medium high, bro
> 
> You can freeze dry but I haven't learned enough to help on the subject with any authority.
> ...


Parchment paper is something I've grown to love using. The trichomes just slide off of it when you're done.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 4, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> For sure man, i understand what you guys are saying, just trying to work out ways of keeping them in that temperature range i could keep the air conditioner on for the whole drying period but thats going to be a bit overboard. should i not possibly dry them in a box and add some ice cubes with a small fan ? might cause too much humidity though


Depends on yield. 
Most professionals use ac and or humidifier among other funny robots, its up to you.. But cool air will be better than hot air, just check a thermometer inside a box..
You may have to choose between keeping it cool and keeping it less moist. But usually coolness drops humidity, you might be golden.
Get some snow and ice in a cooler blowing if you got a boxful or more, a small drawer or less, you gonna be ok np.
Darkness will help them retain too.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 4, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Parchment paper is something I've grown to love using. The trichomes just slide off of it when you're done.


Smart idea. Cut it to fit, cheap, un-shatterable, slidable under a screen, whatever you need.
Nice, man. Of course..


----------



## hyroot (Feb 4, 2015)

I use raw parchment paper. Works better than anything for drying trichomes. Get a wine cooler fridge and place parchment / baking sheet in there to dry and then cure. Keep below 55 degrees and no humidity. Or have a very cold room with a dehum


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 4, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Depends on your end goal for your soil, if youre ready to plant, and plant preference I think.. Me I like to have a couple different recipes around..
> You can save a tiny container in case you want to try a fungal tea later, and turn it in gently in as few turns as possible..unless you need to aerate, then use the opportunity to get in those corners. Good Bacteria can thrive in destroyed fungal networks too.
> 
> If you wanna keep this colony thriving you can sprinkle some rice or more meal in the bare parts/corners..or turn this one in build a new one. Usually light or mist will stunt them anyway..



So should I just sprinkle a bit of oatmeal on my fresh dirt when I pot up to encourage fungal growth?? Sounds promising...

I think I will turn this whole lot over and take this opportunity to really get in the corners and water the soil adequately then I'll add more oatmeal and leave it be for a while. I think I'll have better colonization with bits of oatmeal actually in the soil instead of just on top.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 4, 2015)

Are you adding it whole or making a powder?


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 4, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Are you adding it whole or making a powder?



The pic above is from whole oatmeal, old fashioned Quaker Oats


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 4, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> How did you like that Cascadian Frost? I ordered a pack but never got around to popping them because the Zazen I grew didn't impress me that much. Should I give em a go?


I'd give the cascadian a mediocre score. Smoke was decent, you could tell there were some good genetics in there somewhere. However, really slow vigor, and I mean really slow. Decent chunky buds, but both of the two plants I had threw a few nanners. On the Zazen, I popped three beans and they were culled before they ever hit the flower room. 

Disappointing to say the least. I was hoping for really great things.

P-


----------



## hyroot (Feb 4, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'd give the cascadian a mediocre score. Smoke was decent, you could tell there were some good genetics in there somewhere. However, really slow vigor, and I mean really slow. Decent chunky buds, but both of the two plants I had threw a few nanners. On the Zazen, I popped three beans and they were culled before they ever hit the flower room.
> 
> Disappointing to say the least. I was hoping for really great things.
> 
> P-


I'll look in a little bit. I know Cootz and cann and all them were on the seeds depot forums. I was too until.it shut down...i don't know where they are at now. Headtreep is on instagram and goes by invocation_notillsoil. I'm meeting up with him at the cup this weekend.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> For sure man, i understand what you guys are saying, just trying to work out ways of keeping them in that temperature range i could keep the air conditioner on for the whole drying period but thats going to be a bit overboard. should i not possibly dry them in a box and add some ice cubes with a small fan ? might cause too much humidity though


LOL... you are over thinking things a little. Certainly, terpenes evaporate. But you are going to have to be pretty silly to end with tasteless herb. A guy I know cures his weed till there is NO green, it looks like straw, people from the Knysna area will know exactly who I mean. Best. Tasting. Weed. EVER. His cure takes a few months. More of a concern is breaking down bitter chlorophyl than worrying about terps too much. Terps cant evaporate feom inside he bud all that easy. Think about it. From trim, yeah it is all gone soon and it smells like straw but bud we have some headroom. For drying in summer here, get some of those straw camping plates, the ones that hold paper plates. Arrange your bud loosely and cover with another plate. Seven to nine days drying, perfect time. As long as they dont dry in over 28 degrees taste will be fine, over that and your throat is going to hate you for it even after two weeks mellowing in the jar. Drying is easy, but CURING needs bit of an eye and a feel in summer. Burp twice a day at least and remove from jar for an hour when it feels wet again. Takes a week to ten days to get that good solid flakey but not powdery texture suitable for long term storage in a sealed container.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'd give the cascadian a mediocre score. Smoke was decent, you could tell there were some good genetics in there somewhere. However, really slow vigor, and I mean really slow. Decent chunky buds, but both of the two plants I had threw a few nanners. On the Zazen, I popped three beans and they were culled before they ever hit the flower room.
> 
> Disappointing to say the least. I was hoping for really great things.
> 
> P-


Seconded on all counts. CF was like very good bush weed at most. My Zazen also didn't make it past solos before I gave the girls to a friend. He reckons it kicks ass. But then again he reckoms Greenhouse kicks ass.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 5, 2015)

Left Blue Dream outside in the sun for six months. It was still sticky and smelled like Blueberries!

Made dry sift. I have not tried it yet.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 5, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Terpenes are volatile even at room temp.
> 
> That's why you can smell stinky weed from across the room as soon as the jar is opened.


...(continue)...



Mad Hamish said:


> .. As long as they dont dry in over 28 degrees taste will be fine..
> .


Just to dispel any fog..

According to the curriculum at Oaksterdam University, 24*C is the evaporation temp for many of the 100 or so terpenes found in cannabis,..

An interesting note.. It's the terpenes much responsible for different effects; stoning, psychoactive and healing.

And they can counteract or act synergistically:

*Limonene* 
shrinks tumours while boosting sexuality and focus / attention.

*Pinene / Pulegone* 
boosts memory, stops a destructive protein.

*Cineole* 
boosts circulation while relieving pain.

*Linalool* 
meanwhile reduced mobility in rats studied by 75 % haha.

_*Borneol*_, 
check this, 
is the calming and psychedelic one, the third eye activator, my favourite..


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 5, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> 26 is hot buddy, yeah that will bake some aromatic organ-fixing terpenes into the air, but you will survive.
> 21 is the magic temp imo. Lower ok if mold not concern. Terpenes evap at high temps. Even medium high, bro
> 
> You can freeze dry but I haven't learned enough to help on the subject with any authority.
> ...


Its gets to 30 C in this room during the day : / i put the air con on to drop it to 28 sometimes below 28 but thats it, sorry about the stupid question earlier asking if they evap at 21c lol, too much on the mind bro, terpenes arent something that i want to lose though but its going to be hard trying to keep this bud at a low temp all the time. Ill try go get a glass plate tomorrow bro, and i was thinking of starting to chop these ladies tonight but i have no plan on how to dry them yet lol, i dried my outdoor a few years back in temperatures around 10-20c was potent indeed.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I use raw parchment paper. Works better than anything for drying trichomes. Get a wine cooler fridge and place parchment / baking sheet in there to dry and then cure. Keep below 55 degrees and no humidity. Or have a very cold room with a dehum


So basically you mean a cooler bag or cooler box type thing man ? like this http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/1243320/13785684/0/1281164258/cooler_box_ice_box.jpg ? So ill have to drill holes possibly inside that though ?Ill go get that parchment paper aswell ! thank you for that


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 5, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> LOL... you are over thinking things a little. Certainly, terpenes evaporate. But you are going to have to be pretty silly to end with tasteless herb. A guy I know cures his weed till there is NO green, it looks like straw, people from the Knysna area will know exactly who I mean. Best. Tasting. Weed. EVER. His cure takes a few months. More of a concern is breaking down bitter chlorophyl than worrying about terps too much. Terps cant evaporate feom inside he bud all that easy. Think about it. From trim, yeah it is all gone soon and it smells like straw but bud we have some headroom. For drying in summer here, get some of those straw camping plates, the ones that hold paper plates. Arrange your bud loosely and cover with another plate. Seven to nine days drying, perfect time. As long as they dont dry in over 28 degrees taste will be fine, over that and your throat is going to hate you for it even after two weeks mellowing in the jar. Drying is easy, but CURING needs bit of an eye and a feel in summer. Burp twice a day at least and remove from jar for an hour when it feels wet again. Takes a week to ten days to get that good solid flakey but not powdery texture suitable for long term storage in a sealed container.


Thank you for the message bro ! long time, haha i know what you mean about it looking like straw, i knew a guy aswell that cured his outdoor for over a year, way smoother than the freshly cured stuff i wont lie but then again my cupboard might be cooler but shit dude it hits like 31 c in this room its pathetic lol, aircon is pumping hard while everybody around me is running on candle power at the moment, i just need need a quick way of keeping a smaller box with the bud drying inside cool, i probably wont end up with alot of yield seeing as my pot size was a tad too small, will let you know how it goes bro ! Peace


----------



## hyroot (Feb 5, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> So basically you mean a cooler bag or cooler box type thing man ? like this http://img.diytrade.com/cdimg/1243320/13785684/0/1281164258/cooler_box_ice_box.jpg ? So ill have to drill holes possibly inside that though ?Ill go get that parchment paper aswell ! thank you for that



no like this. A wine cooler fridge

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Danby-Dual-Zone-38-Bottle-Capacity-Wine-Cooler-DWC113BLSDB/203338057?N=5yc1vZc4fj

you can control temp and humidity. You want trichomes drying below 55 degrees with no humidity.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 5, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> ...(continue)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Check this out....

http://theleafonline.com/?s=terpene+profile&_wpnonce=0267c6e4ac&_wp_http_referer=/?s=terpene+profiles&_wpnonce=0267c6e4ac&_wp_http_referer=%2F


.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> ...(continue)...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 When you live in Africa, the price of preserving terpenes perfectly in summer waaaaaaay outweighs the little bit of extra smell. Seriously suggesting we should keep temps that low is something we will merely laugh at. Under 26 degrees C in summer? Not even with over sized AC. So yeah, theoretically all you guys are saying is great, but practically speaking for me and my mate here, well, not a financial viability.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> no like this. A wine cooler fridge
> 
> http://www.homedepot.com/p/Danby-Dual-Zone-38-Bottle-Capacity-Wine-Cooler-DWC113BLSDB/203338057?N=5yc1vZc4fj
> 
> you can control temp and humidity. You want trichomes drying below 55 degrees with no humidity.


Fantastic idea! BUT. Costs a tad much far as the ones I found locally. Guys. Third world. We don't even have permanent electeicity and I am NOT kidding.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 5, 2015)

In Malawi they wrap it in banana leaves and bury it. The ground keeps it nice and cool. Just don't forget where you buried it!

@stowandgrow - That terpene article was the shit! I love O-Chem  

One of my Jillybeans smells just like Vick's Vapo Rub!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I'll look in a little bit. I know Cootz and cann and all them were on the seeds depot forums. I was too until.it shut down...i don't know where they are at now. Headtreep is on instagram and goes by invocation_notillsoil. I'm meeting up with him at the cup this weekend.


His instagram feed is amazing! I've been following him since he started his account back up again.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

Mohican said:


> In Malawi they wrap it in banana leaves and bury it. The ground keeps it nice and cool. Just don't forget where you buried it!
> 
> @stowandgrow - That terpene article was the shit! I love O-Chem
> 
> One of my Jillybeans smells just like Vick's Vapo Rub!


Eh... have you ever smoked cob? And not to be funny, but the connoisseur experience is not what Malawi is known for. Guys up there go apeshit when they come visit here buying anything and everything that is an actual bud. Cob is dry, harsh, bitter, and you have to chain smoke blunts of it from breakfast to get a buzz. Going to Malawi my advice is to take your own hash or hash making gear, preferably screen not bags ice can be a problem. A good friend just got back recently and reckons the weed is worse than memory or imagination served. FRESH it can be pretty good. Some decent herb there but mostly grown by foreigners and none of it buried in banana leaves. Cob makes insanely good space cake, for some reason it is trippy as all get out. But for smoking, man, it really is our worst bush weed that is still weed. Not too convinced about the banana leaves.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

And mostly the cobs get wrapped when the herb is already dry, gets dried out in the sun or in hot sheds, on concrete slabs or tin roof tops. General African drying method is whack it with as much sun and heat as humanly possible. This is why most land races are only unleashed for their full potential from that bag seed in a back garden over here. First time I grew a Swazi plant I nearly shat myself. Bloody good weed, but the way the fellas treat it when it comes in a baggie it really is beyond ruined. Sad.


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 5, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Fantastic idea! BUT. Costs a tad much far as the ones I found locally. Guys. Third world. We don't even have permanent electeicity and I am NOT kidding.



Dig a hole. A deep one. Should stay cool enough underground ya?


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 5, 2015)

Mohican said:


> In Malawi they wrap it in banana leaves and bury it. The ground keeps it nice and cool. Just don't forget where you buried it!
> 
> @stowandgrow - That terpene article was the shit! I love O-Chem
> 
> One of my Jillybeans smells just like Vick's Vapo Rub!



Hahaha maybe next time I'll finish reading before making suggestions


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 5, 2015)

Hey Guys , not sure how much more this sativa is going to take but the signs on her leaves confirm she isnt having bigger growth in her flowers i presume.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 5, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Check this out....
> 
> http://theleafonline.com/?s=terpene profile&_wpnonce=0267c6e4ac&_wp_http_referer=/?s=terpene+profiles&_wpnonce=0267c6e4ac&_wp_http_referer=%2F
> 
> ...


 An issued issue for each terpene.. Shitchu
Did it again, stow..
Big up!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 5, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> An issued issue for each terpene.. Shitchu
> Did it again, stow..
> Big up!


I can't take credit for this. Somebody else here on RIU posted this up (can't remember who atm)...... 

Sharing is caring.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey Guys , not sure how much more this sativa is going to take but the signs on her leaves confirm she isnt having bigger growth in her flowers i presume.


Looks like three weeks or more, over a month is possible. Will be a pretty fat cola that.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I can't take credit for this. Somebody else here on RIU posted this up (can't remember who atm)......
> 
> Sharing is caring.


Calicat who else lol


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 5, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Dig a hole. A deep one. Should stay cool enough underground ya?


Repeat. Over 100 all the time. I hardly want to lift my vodka never mind dig.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 5, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Looks like three weeks or more, over a month is possible. Will be a pretty fat cola that.


Yeah bro it could probably do quite a bit more but the leaves are all starting to look curled and shit bro, those leaves dont seem like they doing much at all now lol i really want to keep them going but i must get out of this place and go do some practical work on natural farming and regenerative systems etc, wasting vital time at the moment, so i dunno wtf to do : / either wait another week and get a bit more yield or just chop it all now


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 6, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Yeah bro it could probably do quite a bit more but the leaves are all starting to look curled and shit bro, those leaves dont seem like they doing much at all now lol i really want to keep them going but i must get out of this place and go do some practical work on natural farming and regenerative systems etc, wasting vital time at the moment, so i dunno wtf to do : / either wait another week and get a bit more yield or just chop it all now


Chopping that bud will result in some pretty harsh and disappointing smoke mate. The last thing you want to use as any indication of harvest time isthe condition of leaves. You are not going to smoke those. You put a lot of money in here man, cropping that will really be a waste of all of it. Up to you man, but like it is there you are going to definitely be happy with Swazi as an alternative. First run, stick it out bro. There is much revealed in these last few weeks, you have to see it through.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 6, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Chopping that bud will result in some pretty harsh and disappointing smoke mate. The last thing you want to use as any indication of harvest time isthe condition of leaves. You are not going to smoke those. You put a lot of money in here man, cropping that will really be a waste of all of it. Up to you man, but like it is there you are going to definitely be happy with Swazi as an alternative. First run, stick it out bro. There is much revealed in these last few weeks, you have to see it through.


Thanx for the reply bro, i understand what you mean by probably having some harsh smoke but i dont know what else to do bro, i should of flowered long ago or used more genetics like The Church, ive really learnt alot though, i know i can do a 2nd run that will turn out way way more yield but at the moment im shot for time man ...
Really in a awkward position no doubt.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 6, 2015)

Anyone ever try and put two ladies in a 15 gallon air planter? I've pondering how reasonable of an idea that would be under 600 watts.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 6, 2015)

I think two #7s would work better.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 6, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I think two #7s would work better.


 Say you have a space just large enough for two, 15s or four, 7 and you want to run four ladies; which would be better? My brain says the 2 larger containers would be better for notill, but I'm unsure.


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 6, 2015)

OK, we had a big day for the garden over here!

I went and picked up two 5gal buckets of fresh EWC.

All my plants, even the seedlings, got a healthy topdressing of EWC, and a small watering.

I also bought 2000 red wrigglers. The guy also gave me enough bedding for my first run of the worm bin.

I set up the bedding about 2-3 inches thick, sprayed it down till sponge like in saturation, then added the worms right in the middle. I covered them with a bit of bedding.

Then I pureed a mix of 1/2 banana and banana peel, some grapes, baby carrots, and strawberry tops, and spread that mix out in clumps around the bin, but not over top of the worms in case they don't like it, and covered the food with bedding too.

And now I wait and hope I don't kill them!




Edit: also I'm making a tea, a handful of EWC and a dollop of agave nectar and it's being bubbled by my 571gph air pump. With those ingredients it is 24-48 hrs correct? Do I dilute the tea before watering?


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 6, 2015)

Anyone used this before? It says all natural amd I have los right now.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BID0BOI/ref=s9_simh_gw_d0_g86_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=mobile-1&pf_rd_r=1ZBGJQ546C9EX9WHKH52&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2015187942&pf_rd_i=mobile


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 6, 2015)

Pics. GG#4 . around 6 weeks in.


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 6, 2015)

Can anyone help me out? ive been trying everything and after I transplanted into los it got worse but it looked almost the damn same. ive used some teas and after t planting idk.. ive narrowed it down finally to a fungal infection or a disease? I have a compost tea brewing right now. Am I right? Any input?
edit: she looks fuggin scary sad I.know...


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 6, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Can anyone help me out? ive been trying everything and after I transplanted into los it got worse but it looked almost the damn same. ive used some teas and after t planting idk.. ive narrowed it down finally to a fungal infection or a disease? I have a compost tea brewing right now. Am I right? Any input?
> edit: she looks fuggin scary sad I.know...
> View attachment 3346342 View attachment 3346343



What have you tried to do so far? It looks pretty abysmal, I would start again.

I'm sorry. No offense meant you but it is what it is.

Maybe somebody else thinks they could help you bring it back.

On the bright side your soil seems to be able to support life. 

Did you use something like the product in the amazon link that you posted earlier? Maybe you burned it?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 6, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Can anyone help me out? ive been trying everything and after I transplanted into los it got worse but it looked almost the damn same. ive used some teas and after t planting idk.. ive  narrowed it down finally to a fungal infection or a disease? I have a compost tea brewing right now. Am I right? Any input?
> edit: she looks fuggin scary sad I.know...
> View attachment 3346342 View attachment 3346343


I don't mean to be rude, but she looks dead man =/


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 6, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> OK, we had a big day for the garden over here!
> 
> I went and picked up two 5gal buckets of fresh EWC.
> 
> ...



Nice! Did you go to Starr Valley Farms out in Ann Arbor?


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 6, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Nice! Did you go to Starr Valley Farms out in Ann Arbor?



Yes I did. Jesse hooked me up and we talked for over an hour too!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 6, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Yes I did. Jesse hooked me up and we talked for over an hour too!


He's a great guy

I didn't come right out and ask him, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that he grows weed.


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 6, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> He's a great guy
> 
> I didn't come right out and ask him, but I'd bet dollars to donuts that he grows weed.



I haven't asked him either. 

Does he smoke? I haven't asked either but I've resisted the urge to whip out a fattie J every time I see those dreads!

Hahaha he's a great guy, I could talk worms for hours with him.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 6, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> I haven't asked him either.
> 
> Does he smoke? I haven't asked either but I've resisted the urge to whip out a fattie J every time I see those dreads!
> 
> Hahaha he's a great guy, I could talk worms for hours with him.


Haha! Passing a doob and chatting about worms would be a blast with him.

I'm trying to line something up to have him come out to my kids school to do a lil vermiculture seminar. I bet the class would really dig that.... and what a great thing to get kids interested in at a young age!


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 6, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Haha! Passing a doob and chatting about worms would be a blast with him.
> 
> I'm trying to line something up to have him come out to my kids school to do a lil vermiculture seminar. I bet the class would really dig that.... and what a great thing to get kids interested in at a young age!



Yes that's a great idea! I think it's a great idea to get kids involved with soil and the growing of their own food.

I want to give small containers of EWC to people to topdress with and see a difference!

I gave a small coffee cans worth to my neighbor tonight. He was so excited to toss it on a plant and see what happens!

I'm excited to raise a worm population!


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 6, 2015)

I also think its a awesome idea to get kids involved at a young age ! im going to study these things but now im growing tiny weed plants instead of doing the more important stuff, chop chop chop lol two immature sativa's but ill probably grow a 3 metre outdoor soon with no till thats been no tilled for decades lol ! Shit guys indoor is beautiful but 5 months is a bit overboard !


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 6, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever try and put two ladies in a 15 gallon air planter? I've pondering how reasonable of an idea that would be under 600 watts.


I ran two clones in a fiver a while ago. Overall it looked like one fat nice bush, but there was most assuredly dominance from the one clone, she went three times larger than her sis. So for clones of one type I guess it works great, but two strains IDK


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 6, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I also think its a awesome idea to get kids involved at a young age ! im going to study these things but now im growing tiny weed plants instead of doing the more important stuff, chop chop chop lol two immature sativa's but ill probably grow a 3 metre outdoor soon with no till thats been no tilled for decades lol ! Shit guys indoor is beautiful but 5 months is a bit overboard !


I am pulling every two weeks  I keep laughing my ass off at the South African method of veg, flower and pack up. Commit for a year or two at LEAST, get your cloning game up, seperate veg area, choose some mothers and make cuts almost daily. Keep your favorites and flower. I throw away a lot of clones that are not on par, and I can do this because I am busy every day making sure there is something fresh to flower. I can run single cola SOG style right next to Christmas trees. It is all about the rhythm. You are lucky to pay for your gear off a first run. Perpetual flow. Treating indoor like outdoor will end up being a bit overboard yes.


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 7, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> What have you tried to do so far? It looks pretty abysmal, I would start again.
> 
> I'm sorry. No offense meant you but it is what it is.
> 
> ...


 no I have not used it but was thinking about it. Is it organic safe with the soil?

before transplant was doing teas after t plant did humid acids, aloe, and was gonna do another tea. damn no offense taken. any advice is welcome! I hope she's not dead. Anyone get some reputable seeds from a good bank lately?


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 7, 2015)

Southern Soil, here is my suggestion for your scenario: you need a buddy system. Between you and a friend or two (you were a crew of three far as I recall except if that was somebody else), you need to keep a fast, potent mother. Or two or three I mean it doesn't matter. Not everybody needs a big mum at first, the mum can be at one house, a mum at all, two, whatever. So lets say you have to go do your prac, now you pack up and spend three months away. Four weeks before you get back, your buddy makes fresh cuts, roots them and sets aside under a t5 or whatever. You get back, fork over a few bucks for his effort, case of beer, however you guys work. Clones come home and go straight to flower in your freshly cleaned rig. A good Indy and six to eight weeks later you are cropping. One cut gets grown out to a mother so now your buddy can take a holiday knowing when he gets back the favor is returned. Most fellas are not in a position to function without a buddy system, lots of people here have set up their entire existence around growing medical weed. So guys like StOw are capable of holding on to lines and keeping a good rhythm without interfering with their daily existence, and as a matter of fact enhancing it. Where for ninety percent of us, this is not possible, a buddy system is the only road forward. The Americans have got buddy systems down to such an art they are called 'Co operatives and similar official sounding names, and they can get very big and a lot of knowledge does the rounds. We need the balls to follow that example, our grower community is totally split and isolated ATM. EDIT: NO MATTER THE SIZE A RIG IS NOT A RIG WITHOUT A VEG AREA even if it is just four t5's.


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 7, 2015)

hi, long time lurker here. i've just finished writing a book about growing in a permaculture/rols style. looking for a couple of readers before i publish. please pm me if interested.


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 8, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Anyone used this before? It says all natural amd I have los right now.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00BID0BOI/ref=s9_simh_gw_d0_g86_i2?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=mobile-1&pf_rd_r=1ZBGJQ546C9EX9WHKH52&pf_rd_t=36701&pf_rd_p=2015187942&pf_rd_i=mobile


Sorry but their isn't any "life" in a sealed bottle after O2/food is used up............paying $$$ for dead colonies and water isn't a good idea imo


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 8, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Can anyone help me out? ive been trying everything and after I transplanted into los it got worse but it looked almost the damn same. ive used some teas and after t planting idk.. ive narrowed it down finally to a fungal infection or a disease? I have a compost tea brewing right now. Am I right? Any input?
> edit: she looks fuggin scary sad I.know...
> View attachment 3346342 View attachment 3346343


ooooh only noticed this now... Yeah start fresh man. There is no coming back from this. You will find all the help you need here with these people on this thread, but trust me we will all be at a loss to fix this here. It will be an epic fail anyway so fastest road to a crop is get back to square one and re build a soil or at least let us know tour exact mix. We can take it from there. Also, what is your climate like in that tent? How hot, how close is the lamp and what lamp etc, what do you use to germinate under, how big is your area and vents and extractor... The more parameters tou give us the better the feedback will be... Take heart mate we all have runs we would rather forget.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 8, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> I haven't asked him either.
> 
> Does he smoke? I haven't asked either but I've resisted the urge to whip out a fattie J every time I see those dreads!
> 
> Hahaha he's a great guy, I could talk worms for hours with him.


I have only met one dude with dredz that didnt smoke. And turned out he was only taking a tolerance break... Not a hair style that has caught on with squares yet lol. I just never discuss smoking on a business premises people can get very funny about it. If i run into the guy at a featival or whatever then he will have a blunt waved at his face for sure, but far as I am concerned the guys at the hydro store just really like bright lights, pumps and rockwool with a deep and intense passion


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 9, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> I am pulling every two weeks  I keep laughing my ass off at the South African method of veg, flower and pack up. Commit for a year or two at LEAST, get your cloning game up, seperate veg area, choose some mothers and make cuts almost daily. Keep your favorites and flower. I throw away a lot of clones that are not on par, and I can do this because I am busy every day making sure there is something fresh to flower. I can run single cola SOG style right next to Christmas trees. It is all about the rhythm. You are lucky to pay for your gear off a first run. Perpetual flow. Treating indoor like outdoor will end up being a bit overboard yes.


Respect bro, thats definitely the way to do it, unfortunately i cannot commit a year yet, i should have started long long ago but its doing it alone, definitely doing clones next time bro & ive still got sheeting to build a very decent veg cab which i can then use my 250w mh magnetic on, i wont have time for quite a while bro, i know you have some insane rhythm going on there bro, i paid for my gear a while ago bro just been keeping it and havent really had a chance to get it going. Should of scrogged no doubt but in anycase ill learnt alot man, i appreciate all the help.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 9, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Southern Soil, here is my suggestion for your scenario: you need a buddy system. Between you and a friend or two (you were a crew of three far as I recall except if that was somebody else), you need to keep a fast, potent mother. Or two or three I mean it doesn't matter. Not everybody needs a big mum at first, the mum can be at one house, a mum at all, two, whatever. So lets say you have to go do your prac, now you pack up and spend three months away. Four weeks before you get back, your buddy makes fresh cuts, roots them and sets aside under a t5 or whatever. You get back, fork over a few bucks for his effort, case of beer, however you guys work. Clones come home and go straight to flower in your freshly cleaned rig. A good Indy and six to eight weeks later you are cropping. One cut gets grown out to a mother so now your buddy can take a holiday knowing when he gets back the favor is returned. Most fellas are not in a position to function without a buddy system, lots of people here have set up their entire existence around growing medical weed. So guys like StOw are capable of holding on to lines and keeping a good rhythm without interfering with their daily existence, and as a matter of fact enhancing it. Where for ninety percent of us, this is not possible, a buddy system is the only road forward. The Americans have got buddy systems down to such an art they are called 'Co operatives and similar official sounding names, and they can get very big and a lot of knowledge does the rounds. We need the balls to follow that example, our grower community is totally split and isolated ATM. EDIT: NO MATTER THE SIZE A RIG IS NOT A RIG WITHOUT A VEG AREA even if it is just four t5's.


Bro you got it spot on, a buddy system would be a huge help, not really in the place or position to find that yet but maybe in a matter of time bro, the system sounds extremely solid though, i can imagine the knowledge flowing around it must be really intense but its awesome what we can do when we work together.

You right though over here everybody is all split and isolated & a veg area is a really good commitment, i actually have a little 50x50x100H stealth box, ill keep it aside for that purpose. Once again, thank you for the advice, much respect bro


----------



## Senca the Younger (Feb 9, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> I use ~50 drops neem oil per 750 ml spray bottle and one drop of soap...
> that can foliar over 20 plants and a dawg still tosses some out..
> 
> Rosemary is a bonus


Has anyone found that Neem Oil absorbed in soil negatively impacts micro life? The Rev recommends covering the soil to prevent Neem Oil from getting into the soil.


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 9, 2015)

i can't give a definitive answer, but i don't think neem oil, in those quantities, will kill significant soil life. neem makes plants less attractive to bigger bugs, and kills smaller bugs like aphids, thrips or whitefly with direct application.

earth worms love neem, so i think covering the soil is not needed. i know others soil soak with neem oil, but extreme doses prob. are not recommended as it is anit-fungl and bacterial. but, which ones does it kill? i don't know.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 9, 2015)

Senca the Younger said:


> Has anyone found that Neem Oil absorbed in soil negatively impacts micro life? The Rev recommends covering the soil to prevent Neem Oil from getting into the soil.


DonPetro no likey either, 
Oaksterdam University says nothing about it, 
As for neem companies, they recommend it but they want you to use more and buy more.

I think misting the topsoil without the soap is ok if NEEDED, but I dilute more, again, i use *just 1 drop neem per 100ml water* and avoid commercial soap. It's the soap that kills and causes a lock up.

Just avoid the flowers and minimize the amount used, it will accumulate.

Neem is natural and helps humans with skin issues, it won't harm beneficial life, it does sterilize pests tho so they can't have more babies.

Better than just offence is a good offence and defence:
DE Rocks rock..

Their jagged structure not only stop pupae (&gnats) from reaching soil it mashes em up, and slowly releases its rare elements too
-86% silica
-5% sodium
-3% magnesium
-2% iron

No I'm not sponsored by a DE company. 
I just endorse two headed solutions


----------



## stak (Feb 9, 2015)

That was a lot of reading. 

Hi everyone. I’ve been lurking in this thread since around October when I mixed up about 15cuft of soil following Coots recipe. At first I just read like the first page or so of this thread then jumped to the last page and started following from there. I was getting to the point where I would need to start recycling and/or reamending the soil and started to have questions about that and other things. So last month I decided to read the whole thread before asking anything. I finished up earlier today and don’t have many questions left.

I want to get a couple aloe plants to grow indoors and due to spacing I’d prefer to keep them in the flower tent. Does anyone else do this or does anyone see a problem with keeping them under 12/12?

Thank you @headtreep for starting this thread and thank you to everyone keeping it going.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 9, 2015)

nice!

I have two large aloe plants. I took them both back to the outdoors after realizing they wernt doing so well. Within weeks they were plump with aloe juice and noticeably healthier. Not too say they won't do good indoors, but I would say, rather use the extra space for flower, plus they make nice patio plants.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 10, 2015)

stak said:


> That was a lot of reading.
> 
> Hi everyone. I’ve been lurking in this thread since around October when I mixed up about 15cuft of soil following Coots recipe. At first I just read like the first page or so of this thread then jumped to the last page and started following from there. I was getting to the point where I would need to start recycling and/or reamending the soil and started to have questions about that and other things. So last month I decided to read the whole thread before asking anything. I finished up earlier today and don’t have many questions left.
> 
> ...


First off, standing ovation for doing your own leg work and reading this entire thread! That must have been an epic journey, I remember reading through all of Rrog's thread and trying to process it all, took me quite some time reading all the links etc too. I also still ponder many things, and find the answers are really easy to get to between a thread or three. Aloe will survive anywhere pretty much, I see no problems with the light cycle myself.


----------



## stak (Feb 10, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> nice!
> 
> I have two large aloe plants. I took them both back to the outdoors after realizing they wernt doing so well. Within weeks they were plump with aloe juice and noticeably healthier. Not too say they won't do good indoors, but I would say, rather use the extra space for flower, plus they make nice patio plants.


Thanks!

Outdoors is not really an option, we had a blizzard recently. I was thinking of putting them on a windowsill inside but those areas are also too cold right now. So that only leaves the grow spaces. The veg is almost always packed to max capacity, but there always seems to be some space somewhere around the edges of the flower area. 




Mad Hamish said:


> First off, standing ovation for doing your own leg work and reading this entire thread! That must have been an epic journey, I remember reading through all of Rrog's thread and trying to process it all, took me quite some time reading all the links etc too. I also still ponder many things, and find the answers are really easy to get to between a thread or three. Aloe will survive anywhere pretty much, I see no problems with the light cycle myself.


I've always like to read before asking. I can usually find the answers I'm looking for and a whole lot more, especially with this thread. The downside is there is so much information it's hard to always remember who said what. 

This sites layout doesn't seem to let me bring up a list of the threads started by a specific user, do you have a link for Rrog's thread? I'd like to check it out and maybe add it to the group of threads I plan to read/follow. The Vermicomposters Unite thread is the up next.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 10, 2015)

stak said:


> Thanks!
> 
> Outdoors is not really an option, we had a blizzard recently. I was thinking of putting them on a windowsill inside but those areas are also too cold right now. So that only leaves the grow spaces. The veg is almost always packed to max capacity, but there always seems to be some space somewhere around the edges of the flower area.
> 
> ...




http://rollitup.org/t/so-who-here-is-growing-in-true-organic-living-soil.583341/ there you go mate.... epic read.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 10, 2015)

Senca the Younger said:


> Has anyone found that Neem Oil absorbed in soil negatively impacts micro life? The Rev recommends covering the soil to prevent Neem Oil from getting into the soil.


I use neem seed meal in my soil (a lot of others do too) and it seems to be beneficial, so I don't think a little neem oil would hurt bene's at all




stak said:


> That was a lot of reading.
> 
> Hi everyone. I’ve been lurking in this thread since around October when I mixed up about 15cuft of soil following Coots recipe. At first I just read like the first page or so of this thread then jumped to the last page and started following from there. I was getting to the point where I would need to start recycling and/or reamending the soil and started to have questions about that and other things. So last month I decided to read the whole thread before asking anything. I finished up earlier today and don’t have many questions left.
> 
> ...


Hey stak. Nice looking gal you have there! I second MH's comment above about doing so much reading. Cudos!

As for the aloe plant, I would keep it out of the flower room. They will need more than 12 hours a day of light, but the light intensity doesn't have to be strong so you could put it pretty much anywhere in your house that gets some type of sunlight, even if it's indirect.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 10, 2015)

Hey there guys, seeing as i have a small amount of trim what would you guys recommend using it on ? I was thinking of juicing it and using it for myself but its mixed in with some wilted leaves so im not too keen for that, i also wanted to ask seeing as i have 12 gallons of soil which i cant exactly look after for quite some time what would you think would be the best use for it ? I have a big pot outside that i could fill up with this 12 gallon but do you guys have any experience what other type of fruit would do well in it ? It would be extremely beautiful to plant a lady in there, i really wish but unfortunately some family members arent up for that. Any help will be much appreciated. Respect


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 10, 2015)

depending on your soil mix, you can grow many vegetables. i've grown chilli plants that really took off after transplant. aloe vera and other house plants too. or your could just plant a cover crop, throw in some compost worms, and let it go fallow. that's what i'm doing now, out of laziness.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 10, 2015)

The new Neem I got at Home Depot gave me a weird reaction in my Aero cloner:





Turned my roots purple!

Cheers,
Mo


----------



## stak (Feb 10, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> http://rollitup.org/t/so-who-here-is-growing-in-true-organic-living-soil.583341/ there you go mate.... epic read.


Thank you, I appreciate the help



st0wandgrow said:


> Hey stak. Nice looking gal you have there! I second MH's comment above about doing so much reading. Cudos!


Thanks!



st0wandgrow said:


> As for the aloe plant, I would keep it out of the flower room. They will need more than 12 hours a day of light, but the light intensity doesn't have to be strong so you could put it pretty much anywhere in your house that gets some type of sunlight, even if it's indirect.


The aloe plants will have to be kept in a basement area and the only accessible area with natural light is a single windowsill. The sill is small and cold, since it's at ground level and the ground in frozen right now, so I'd prefer to avoid using it. I have two aloe plants on the way, I'm thinking I should put one on the sill and one in the flower tent. See how they do and if necessary I can probably rearrange things and increase the grow area to accommodate them better.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 10, 2015)

stak said:


> That was a lot of reading.
> 
> Hi everyone. I’ve been lurking in this thread since around October when I mixed up about 15cuft of soil following Coots recipe. At first I just read like the first page or so of this thread then jumped to the last page and started following from there. I was getting to the point where I would need to start recycling and/or reamending the soil and started to have questions about that and other things. So last month I decided to read the whole thread before asking anything. I finished up earlier today and don’t have many questions left.
> 
> ...


Whoa buddy!! Looks like reading this thread done did you some good! Dang! Looking great!!!


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 10, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> DonPetro no likey either,
> Oaksterdam University says nothing about it,
> As for neem companies, they recommend it but they want you to use more and buy more.
> 
> ...


Literally NONE of those elements are RARE...................just saying

neem cake has been used for many years as a fertilizer in India with no apparent ill effects to soil biology/microflora??accumulation worries would have shown by now, i see no recent studies though

yes DE is a nice addition to the battle...............fungus gnats have been with me since the beginning of my indoor journey, have yet to eradicate them completely tbh.

still apply bifenthrin between grows, old AG habits die hard


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 10, 2015)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Hey there guys, seeing as i have a small amount of trim what would you guys recommend using it on ? I was thinking of juicing it and using it for myself but its mixed in with some wilted leaves so im not too keen for that, i also wanted to ask seeing as i have 12 gallons of soil which i cant exactly look after for quite some time what would you think would be the best use for it ? I have a big pot outside that i could fill up with this 12 gallon but do you guys have any experience what other type of fruit would do well in it ? It would be extremely beautiful to plant a lady in there, i really wish but unfortunately some family members arent up for that. Any help will be much appreciated. Respect


ANYTHING will grow well in there trust me, this time of year I'd go for cocktail tomato or a trellis with beans or so. Beans are awesome they really don't tax your soil much. I planted roses in Coot's mix and they love it. As for the trim... BHO!


----------



## Mohican (Feb 11, 2015)

A layer of fresh promix on top of my pot got rid of my gnat issue!


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 11, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Literally NONE of those elements are RARE


Um, You referring to rare earth elements..Lol, I'm just referring to rare literally, as in not found in everything. Especially if you're organic (am i in the right section here?) and using Ro, and flowering long landrace sativas like us.. Si and Cu are still elements Na mean?



PSUAGRO. said:


> neem cake has been used for many years as a fertilizer in India with no apparent ill effects to soil biology/microflora?


Comparing Oil sprayed directly on flowers we inhale/consume vs cake mellowed in India? Wow, someone's proving I don't have a pesticide for everything, or shall I say, one, hahaha.. Jk.

But really, for your in between crop game, talk to none other than Stow, man. Every grower here has strengths and weaknesses. Small pivot can mean a big angle improvement. Just gotta find a guy whose strong in your weak areas and bulk up. We engulf our bad habits via learning a better way. 
One love to the mentoring specialists
Game gets rounder every WEEK
BEST CALL IT A STRONG


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 11, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Um, You referring to rare earth elements..Lol, I'm just referring to rare literally, as in not found in everything. Especially if you're organic (am i in the right section here?) and using Ro, and flowering long landrace sativas like us.. Si and Cu are still elements Na mean?
> 
> 
> Comparing Oil sprayed directly on flowers we inhale/consume vs cake mellowed in India? Wow, someone's proving I don't have a pesticide for everything, or shall I say, one, hahaha.. Jk.
> ...


Those elements being rare in an inert medium......sure , soil? no.............especially not silica, lol

We agree that neem is systemic? how's the application matter?


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 11, 2015)

You guys like the taste of your weed? Getting rid of bugs alright? If your method suits you I guess splitting hairs is a little redundant eh... Happy girls? Healthy soil.


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 11, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> You guys like the taste of your weed? Getting rid of bugs alright? If your method suits you I guess splitting hairs is a little redundant eh... Happy girls? Healthy soil.



yeah, your right in the end................been in a shitty mood, no need to be argumentative


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 11, 2015)

Yea PSU!! silica for the world!


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 11, 2015)

Agsil best bang for your buck. Spent 16$ on build a soil for a pound about 6 months ago. Still have half a bottle to spare


----------



## Mohican (Feb 11, 2015)

Male Jillanje BX in ROLS:



Cheers,
Mo


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 11, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Those elements being rare in an inert medium......sure , soil? no.............especially not silica, lol
> 
> We agree that neem is systemic? how's the application matter?


Smoke more dawg. Argue less.
If you pissy stay off RIU or at least away from me.
I wanna collab, not collide


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 11, 2015)

O give him break he's a good guy and nothing but informative and mostly positive and nice on the delivery. I think we've all had those moments on here. I know I've had a few. Some ppl just set me off (cough* pet and gauis..) PSU just seems to be all about true organics as much as he can which I highly respect, especially with the commercial ag experience he has and when medicinal becomes a real thing across the nation I believe caregivers/suppliers should only be making the most quality (ie. Natural) medicine they can, I don't know, I'm not sure what anyone knows what the harm could be if a legitimately Ill patient consumed medicine over saturated in dyna grow lol. Naw, just give him a break he's a good dude.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 11, 2015)

Alright then, mon, one love, one love. Peace and know-how, spreading like butter, no need for rudeness from Jah gutter!

Erbium is a rare element.. We must corral around the 'Erbium, burn it slow..


----------



## Mohican (Feb 12, 2015)

I want some Unobtanium


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 12, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Smoke more dawg. Argue less.
> If you pissy stay off RIU or at least away from me.
> I wanna collab, not collide





Scotch089 said:


> O give him break he's a good guy and nothing but informative and mostly positive and nice on the delivery. I think we've all had those moments on here. I know I've had a few. Some ppl just set me off (cough* pet and gauis..) PSU just seems to be all about true organics as much as he can which I highly respect, especially with the commercial ag experience he has and when medicinal becomes a real thing across the nation I believe caregivers/suppliers should only be making the most quality (ie. Natural) medicine they can, I don't know, I'm not sure what anyone knows what the harm could be if a legitimately Ill patient consumed medicine over saturated in dyna grow lol. Naw, just give him a break he's a good dude.


I agree Scotch. DT and PSU are both good cats IMO and contribute some great knowledge to the forum. We all get in to little spats on here (I'm guilty of it on almost a weekly basis) but if we met up for an organic growers summit (Jamaica??) I bet we'd all get along like peas and carrots.

.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 12, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I agree Scotch. DT and PSU are both good cats IMO and contribute some great knowledge to the forum. We all get in to little spats on here (I'm guilty of it on almost a weekly basis) but if we met up for an organic growers summit (Jamaica??) I bet we'd all get along like peas and carrots.
> 
> .


Now there's an idea. The first annual RIU Organic Growers Summit. Just imagine...
http://puregardenresort.net/


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 12, 2015)

I vote Chiapas Mexico!
Viva la Zapatista!


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 12, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> .. The first annual RIU Organic Growers Summit. Just imagine..


What a wicked good idea..

Once a year, There are these crazy raggamuffin cruises from Miami to Jamaica with a bunch of reggae artists like the Marley bros .. You know the herb be steady burning in them international waters..those boys love their organic sativas full time..

I was on a cruise once without my herbs for days when i saw a couple pounds, literally, floating behind the ship..bobbing Into the horizon, all alone..oh that poor herb.. I am gonna blaze on a ship yet..
Some Organic Titanic Gravy on deck, I think..


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 13, 2015)

You can mist the soil with neem oil, but I wouldn't recommend drenching with the solution. From what I have read, DE only works as a pest deterrent when it is dry. As stow said, add neem meal to the soil, even top dressing with it. Then spray the foliage with neem oil. I've never covered my pots while spraying neem oil, and I've never had an issue. 

Oakerdamn university... is that where all the high school drop outs go to get their GED?

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 13, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Male Jillanje BX in ROLS:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A male? Are you sure?.....
Hahaha, I love ya man, but I couldn't resist...
I've seen smaller balls on un-fixed bull-mastiffs!
Damn!


----------



## Mohican (Feb 13, 2015)

Thanks! I was impressed by his manliness! His balls look a little sunburned though.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 13, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> From what I have read, DE only works as a pest deterrent when it is dry.


Where did you read that? I understand they like moisture, gnats and thrips, but that's quite a claim for me that DE won't work moist..

Thrip pupae fall from leaf surfaces to mature in the soil and can hibernate in soil debris all winter.

Any barrier layer helps prevent them from reaching their home..

Dryness to the topsoil itself (top inch) is a deterrent but De rocks help DESTROY Thrip pupae with their sharp, jagged texture (visible under a microscope) .. According to some published work i'm reading anyway. Think mortal combat on the bridge, a thrip landing on spikes wet or dry, would really suck for them.

Indoors we need extra weapons because they can live year round now and the fungi that inhibits them is only present in outdoor soil.

Thanks for letting us know in advance,

side note:
Orius Pirate Bugs actually hunt and eat agile, adult thrips.. Don't see myself getting some though with Pyrethrum having multiple uses, as well as DE and neem in both its forms ..

U ever use Pyrethrum? It has a lot of uses..




Pattahabi said:


> Oakerdamn university... is that where all the high school drop outs go to get their GED?


Haha.
It's a recognized cannabis college actually, the first in America, and one on a mission to "legitimize .. (And) change the law to make cannabis legal".. With hundreds of millions spent, 500+ page course books packed with medical research, campuses in Michigan, LA, Sebastopol, and Oakland, and _raids by the IRS, DEA, and Us Marshall's,_
*it makes high schools serving GEDs look like pre schools serving fruit snacks!!!

Respecting the movement's pioneers,
And the jokesters,
Hardasses, even,
Whoever contributes..

Dt*


----------



## hyroot (Feb 13, 2015)

from my experience. De stops working when its wet and clumps.up too. It barely works when its dry.. Oil based /castile ipm's is the best way to go.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 13, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Where did you read that? I understand they like moisture, gnats and thrips, but that's quite a claim for me that DE won't work moist..
> 
> Thrip pupae fall from leaf surfaces to mature in the soil and can hibernate in soil debris all winter.
> 
> ...


I'll attach a pdf that should give more insight into DE. DE kills insects by absorbing the oils off of the insects, and is least effective in a moist environment:

*From the PDF:*
_The DE becomes ineffective in a moist environment, not because water fouls or saturates the absorptive surface, but because insects can constantly replenish their waterloss by eating the moist grain._

*From Wiki:*
_Arthropods die as a result of the water pressure deficiency, based on Fick's law of diffusion. This also works against gastropods and is commonly employed in gardening to defeat slugs. However, since slugs inhabit humid environments, efficacy is very low. It is sometimes mixed with an attractant or other additives to increase its effectiveness._

I do not use pyrethrum. Especially not the kind in the aerosol cans.

So who are the professors at Oakerdamn... Subtool? Did your quote come from their website? Sounds like stoner marketing for people that can't make it through a real horticulture program.

P-


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 13, 2015)

Yeah buddy! Real time search engine cataloging!


----------



## reasonevangelist (Feb 13, 2015)

hyroot said:


> from my experience. De stops working when its wet and clumps.up too. It barely works when its dry.. Oil based /castile ipm's is the best way to go.


When i saw what i interpreted as indications of a potentially impending pest situation, i grabbed my bottle of Dr. Bronner's Tea Tree Oil Pure Castile Hemp Soap, and gave my drain liner a few drops, while the runoff was still running off...

Whether it was the soap or something else, i'm not sure... but i didn't have pests. I suppose it's possible they 'just left' (or i imagined them in the first place?), but i prefer to think i did something useful.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 13, 2015)

Excellent info on Neem.

P-


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 13, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'll attach a pdf that should give more insight into DE. DE kills insects by absorbing the oils off of the insects, and is least effective in a moist environment:
> 
> *From the PDF:*
> _The DE becomes ineffective in a moist environment, not because water fouls or saturates the absorptive surface, but because insects can constantly replenish their waterloss by eating the moist grain._
> ...


Hahaha ..
No no, just from wiki, like you, lol. It's a real story, the raids were on April 2nd of 2012. I think it would take a pretty good enthusiast to take a year off, relocate, pay money and risk a day like this 'at school':
 

But hey, I'm not here to critique horticulture programs or how one chooses to learn and grow..I was just wondering about the flower found naturally in nature, if anyone uses it. Aerosol, if anyone knows my style, would not even get considered, not for a second.
Ha- We are getting as snooty (in a good way) as Hyroot when it comes to foolish products.. That was a complement hy

All natural, plant and earth based organics is our preferred route I would say.. 

That said, I'm just trying to protect healthy fungal spores and plant tissues from their attacks and galls, and especially their diseases they carry ..

Im thinking, moisture and clumping aside, more as a stationary preventative, since the thrips have a couple pupal stages the DE, which is natural diatomite (sharp, fossilized skeletal remains of aquatic plants) that it would be a bitch for the soft bellied thrips whose yet to form their exoskeleton, reproductive organs, wings etc to land and live on.. To extract its beneficial silica and iron, though, and to water soil, one would have to water it as needed but then it could dry out. 
Was gonna use bigger rocks vs small pellets..

Can thrips really eat skeletons to excrete its moisture and grow all its adults parts just from maintaining its water? 
That'd be wild if so.. Cause then for sure they could extract moisture from a cover crop like clover, no sweat.



Here's an adult ready for war..
 

Here's a little transparent baby ready for a death defying (or inducing) drop:
 
* anyone wanna babysit? Lol

_"Only two families of parasitoid Hymenoptera are known to parasitize eggs *and* larvae, the Eulophidae and the Trichogrammatidae. Other biocontrol agents of adults and larvae include aphid wasps, anthocorid bugs of genus Orius, and phytoseiid mites."_
_-wiki

@hyroot _are you talking something like organic lavender Castile soap ?


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 14, 2015)

For thrips I've successfully used neem cake top dress, neem oil spray. If by some chance neem oil foliar doesn't work, or if you want to go straight to the big guns, spinosad wipes em out. Use spinosad with caution. Karanja can be substituted for neem. 

Calling Oakerdamn a horticulture program is a far stretch of the imagination to say the least. You of all people should understand the money making scam going on there. I wouldn't be surprised to see ads for high times and sun systems in the 'text books'. 

I think you should go with the DE. Keep us updated how it works. For the record, I have tried it. Be sure to wear a respirator when using that stuff. Not something you want in your lungs.

Peace!

P-


----------



## Mohican (Feb 14, 2015)

I didn't see any difference using DE. Just my 2 cents.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 14, 2015)

I would use DE for the added silica rather than a pest deterrent.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 14, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> I would use DE for the added silica rather than a pest deterrent.


Imo DE is not going to be a substantial source of silica. It's going to take too long to become available. Protekt or agsil would be a better choice. 

Just my 2¢,

P-


----------



## Mohican (Feb 14, 2015)

Even a dandelion tea would be faster!

I add bone to my garden and it takes forever to break down. I just keep doing little slow things every year and the soil keeps getting better and better. The worms are getting happier and happier 

Cheers,
Mo


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 14, 2015)

Well to me thats what its all about...slow and steady breakdown. I have yet to use the DE rocks as i never really saw a need for it. But it was a freebie so eventually i'll get around to it. For now i'm focusing on about 6 amendments...alfalfa meal, kelp meal, neem meal, greensand, rock phosphate and zeolite.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 14, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Well to me thats what its all about...slow and steady breakdown. I have yet to use the DE rocks as i never really saw a need for it. But it was a freebie so eventually i'll get around to it. For now i'm focusing on about 6 amendments...alfalfa meal, kelp meal, neem meal, greensand, rock phosphate and zeolite.


Don't forget some rock dust!

P-


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 14, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Don't forget some rock dust!
> 
> P-


Wouldn't mind but hard to source where i'm at. I figured i had the mineral side of things covered. And i know they take a while to break down but i feel thats sorta the point with recycling.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 14, 2015)

I was going to say oyster shell and crab meal.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 14, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Wouldn't mind but hard to source where i'm at. I figured i had the mineral side of things covered. And i know they take a while to break down but i feel thats sorta the point with recycling.


Just a thought, but you could check your local landscape yard for some granite crusher fines. This will add some benefits you will not get from zeolite, SRP, greensand, etc. 

I'm curious about Zeolite being an aluminasilicate. I'm pretty sure using fulpower could actually chelate some of the aluminum. Not sure how much of an issue this could cause, but something I've been pondering. 

And I agree with Mo, oyster shell and crab meal would be a couple others I would consider.

Not tellin, just sayin... 

P-


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 14, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Just a thought, but you could check your local landscape yard for some granite crusher fines. This will add some benefits you will not get from zeolite, SRP, greensand, etc.
> 
> I'm curious about Zeolite being an aluminasilicate. I'm pretty sure using fulpower could actually chelate some of the aluminum. Not sure how much of an issue this could cause, but something I've been pondering.
> 
> ...


I plan on implementing oyster shells as my aeration amendment.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 14, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> I plan on implementing oyster shells as my aeration amendment.


Are you using anything else for a calcium carbonate source? Just curious.

P-


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 14, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Are you using anything else for a calcium carbonate source? Just curious.
> 
> P-


I've been using dolomite lime and bone meal as well as crushed eggshell.


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 15, 2015)

While we're on the subject, here's a soil mix excerpt from my book (only step 1):

*How to Organically Garden in 8 easy-to-moderately bothersome steps:*

*1. Make your soil mix according to the following ratios.[1]

BASE MIX*
There are two options for the base mix
o A ratio of 1:1:2 (one part compost, one part aeration element, and two parts peat moss)
o A ratio of 1:1:1 (one part compost, one part aeration element, and one part peat moss)
o Of the two ratio options, all equal parts (1:1:1) is great for a beginner gardener because the higher ratio of *aeration element *makes overwatering difficult to do, and the ratio option with more sphagnum peat moss (1:1:2) retains moisture for longer periods of time, so it works well for sprouting seeds​o One part *compost *_(most important ingredient)_
§ Preferably, use "living"[2] earth worm castings or other high-quality compost
§ Ideally, use a mixture of different compost types 
§ Low on compost? Try a combination of soil and compost, up to half soil (commercial or recycled) and half compost​o One part pebbled-sized red lava rock, pumice, rice hulls, or other *aeration element *

o One part or two parts *sphagnum* *peat* *moss*
§ Hydrate before measuring and mixing, preferably using a wetting agent​· The total volume of the combined *Base Mix *in cubic feet dictates how much of each *Soil Amendment *you will add

*SOIL AMENDMENTS*
· Combine the *Soil Amendments*, then add to the *Base Mix*
· The given quantities are for each *cubic foot* of the *Base Mix *you made

*Mineral mix *_(essential)_
2 to 4 cups *rock dusts*, including at least one of the following: *glacial rock dust, basalt, bentonite, Azomite rock dust, *and/or* other minerals*
The *mineral mix *can be exclusively *glacial rock dust*
No more than 1 cup each of* other rock dusts (basalt, etc.) *for each cubic foot of *Base Mix*
Mix and match depending on local availability


*Meal mix *_(performance enhancers)_
A soil with 4 cups of *meal mix* typically only needs water from seed to harvest and may not need topdressings or botanical teas for the first crop. It also works well for small-container gardening (containers around 5 gallons)

2 to 4 cups total *meal mix*, containing the following
½ to 1 cup *neem meal*
Improves plant immunity and soil balance

½ to 2 cups *kelp meal*
Provides a broad spectrum of trace elements, among other benefits

½ to 1 cup *crab shell meal*
Calcium source, for calcium-hungry plants; pH buffer

½ cup *alfalfa meal *_(optional)_
Source of nitrogen, among other goodies

½ to 1 cup *all-purpose dry organic fertilizer *_(optional)_
Can replace *kelp *and *crab shell *for a simple soil amendment mix
Conversely, it is not needed when you already have *kelp* and *crab shell*
Example *fertilizers*: Epsoma Tomato-tone and Garden-tone, Happy Frog All-Purpose and Tomato and Vegetable, and similar products by Dr. Earth and Down to Earth



*Liming agents *_(optional, but recommended for soils intended for multiple harvests)_
1 cup *oyster shell flour *or *gypsum powder*
Calcium source, for calcium-hungry plants; pH buffer
Can use ½ cup of each for a total of 1 cup



*Biochar *_(optional)_
add up to 10% of the *Base Mix's *volume 
*Biochar *can be bought from gardening suppliers and should be broken up in small pieces
*Natural charcoal*, which is the variety made from hardwood (not briquettes), can also be used
Activate *Biochar* by mixing it with living compost or soaking it in compost tea for a few days before mixing with soil

[1] Credit goes to Headtreep, Cann, Ganja Girl, and ClackamasCootz, of the Recycled Organic Living Soil Internet boards, for the particular ratios and combination of ingredients.
[2] "Living" means moist compost with active bacterial and fungal populations; completely dry is useless.


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## Pattahabi (Feb 15, 2015)

@zonderkop that's a nice overview! Is this a book you wrote?

I'm curious about this part:

_The *mineral mix *can be exclusively *glacial rock dust*

No more than 1 cup each of* other rock dusts (basalt, etc.) *for each cubic foot of *Base Mix*_

Why can the mix be exclusively GRD, but not all basalt? I'm also curious about the liming agents. Gysum on it's own will not affect pH. It needs calcium carbonate to deconstruct. I think using the 1/2c of each is the better option.

Nice post!

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 15, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> While we're on the subject, here's a soil mix excerpt from my book (only step 1):
> 
> *How to Organically Garden in 8 easy-to-moderately bothersome steps:*
> 
> ...


I can't tell you how hard it was for me to source the individual ratios for all of the amendments you listed, especially the meals, when I switched to the rols / notill grow style. I would have loved to have seen this information in one place then. One thing I would suggest is adding karanja in with the neem by simply cutting the neem in half and using the same amount removed for the karanja.


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## zonderkop (Feb 15, 2015)

@Pattahabi
Yes, this is an excerpt from the book shown by my avatar; the book is on pre-order at amazon and will be released on 30 March, if not sooner.

I think I'll re-name "liming agent" to "calcium-supplement". what do you think? I'd rather list these under "mineral mix", but it makes that section complicated. i'll also put "recommended" by the 50/50 mix of shell/gypsum. i've seen 75/25 too, but also trying to keep things simple.

Regarding rock dusts, I don't know the limits for each ingredient beyond 1 cup; from what i read, GRD can be used up to 4 or so cups per sq ft. I'll change "exclusive" to "up to 4 cups" to clarify.

@midwest
thanks for the suggestion! i'll add it. i initially didn't because i didn't want to overwhelm people with too many options, but what's one more wrinkle, right?

yeah, i wrote this book partly because i want more people to know that you can garden without being an asshole to the environment and still get good results. making a little ecosystem of worms, living mulch, and compost creatures is a fun way to garden.

i also cover container building, botantical teas/sprays, worm binning, and discreet growing. i think more people would grow this way if its accessible or made aware.


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## Pattahabi (Feb 15, 2015)

I would say rock dust is rock dust and can be used at similar rates. Aluminosilicate clays are not rock dust.

P-


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## Mohican (Feb 15, 2015)

Are there clays that are good to add? Can clays be used in teas to extract the goodies?


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## earthling420 (Feb 15, 2015)

Im going to be building a worm bin soon after countless evidence of what great casings can do. What would yall recommend to do? pictures would be awesome. 
Would it be worth adding worms to my cannabis pots? 
Could anyone tell a real difference going from a bucket brewing teas to a vortex?


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## earthling420 (Feb 15, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Sorry but their isn't any "life" in a sealed bottle after O2/food is used up............paying $$$ for dead colonies and water isn't a good idea imo


How does stuff like Great White work then?
I wasnt aware you could burn a plant with current bacteria and fungi strains. Can you?



Mad Hamish said:


> ooooh only noticed this now... Yeah start fresh man. There is no coming back from this. You will find all the help you need here with these people on this thread, but trust me we will all be at a loss to fix this here. It will be an epic fail anyway so fastest road to a crop is get back to square one and re build a soil or at least let us know tour exact mix. We can take it from there. Also, what is your climate like in that tent? How hot, how close is the lamp and what lamp etc, what do you use to germinate under, how big is your area and vents and extractor... The more parameters tou give us the better the feedback will be... Take heart mate we all have runs we would rather forget.


The soil for this plant is off BAS. I made a cootz soil that is cooking as i add last couple ingredients. 
Climate and setup is good. it was mainly a fucked up plant I was seeing if I could save from its ugly beginning. Thanks mate. lol pretty much. Still learned so wasnt a total loss lol Im gonna plant a new bean and see how it goes. im slowly getting more of the organic setup down. just need a worm bin an a compost bin. Hell maybe even a vortex brewer lol This will be. my first organic and los run so I'm stoked after seeing what you guys can do and reading what you post. Thanks!


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## CannaBare (Feb 15, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Are there clays that are good to add? Can clays be used in teas to extract the goodies?


What special properties are you suggesting clay has? I thought it just had high CEC? I actually add a pinch of biochar to my brews ever since I bought a bottle of ful-power. It always looks like it has charcoal particles in it, and then it clicked. I've never noticed a difference though.


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## Scotch089 (Feb 15, 2015)

How do you guys deal with gnats? At the end of the season last year I was setting out vinegar traps to try and eliminate them buzzing around, it is now 9 degrees outside and I'm only 3 waterings into my Romas and already noticed the fuckers crawling on the surface of the soil and flying around.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 15, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> How do you guys deal with gnats? At the end of the season last year I was setting out vinegar traps to try and eliminate them buzzing around, it is now 9 degrees outside and I'm only 3 waterings into my Romas and already noticed the fuckers crawling on the surface of the soil and flying around.


Karanja / neem, then bti and vinegar traps. If that doesn't work put a half inch of sand on top of your grow medium.


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## zonderkop (Feb 16, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Im going to be building a worm bin soon after countless evidence of what great casings can do. What would yall recommend to do? pictures would be awesome.
> Would it be worth adding worms to my cannabis pots?
> Could anyone tell a real difference going from a bucket brewing teas to a vortex?


I used plastic storage totes, with no problem. i first put a layer of small lava rocks, and then a mix of composted manure and moar lava rock. i just kept it open, without a lid, but you can cut out the middle of the lid and add a mesh for airflow.

i threw my worms in gardening pots big and small. they seem to survive and add free aeration and worm poo. i never did a side-by-side grow, comparing no worms to worms, but i like to mimic nature. in general, the moar life the better (pests aside).

everything you want to know about compost teas, including vortex brewers, is here: http://microbeorganics.com/


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 16, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> How does stuff like Great White work then?
> I wasnt aware you could burn a plant with current bacteria and fungi strains. Can you?
> 
> 
> ...


No better way to start than ROLS! All my problems disappeared. I am not growing these plants they grow themselves now. Can't take any credit. Nature rules.


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 16, 2015)

hyroot said:


> from my experience. De stops working when its wet and clumps.up too. It barely works when its dry.. Oil based /castile ipm's is the best way to go.


Hy... some people that stick to organic methods with their horses feed DE to help rid the animals of intestinal parasites. I use manure from these sources for composting and have indeed noticed my compost much less prone to gnat infestation, I am now saving on BTi by only ever needing it for the soil mix. It seems the DE in the manure does make an impact, but nobody has been able to confirm this for me yet. I thought you might find the info useful, I also found DE as a powder to be pretty cloggy and didn't like it much either.


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## SupraSPL (Feb 16, 2015)

I may have mentioned it before but I use granular DE instead of perlite. I don't think it causes as much harm if any when it is wet but when the surface of the soil dries out it is probably a good deterrent. I also let house spiders live, by the grace of my wife and they go crazy for gnats, thrips and fruit flies.


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## DonPetro (Feb 16, 2015)

SupraSPL said:


> I may have mentioned it before but I use granular DE instead of perlite. I don't think it causes as much harm if any when it is wet but when the surface of the soil dries out it is probably a good deterrent. I also let house spiders live, by the grace of my wife and they go crazy for gnats, thrips and fruit flies.


Supra my man...good to see you in the organic section. Had to double check to make sure i wasnt in the LED forum! Have you noticed that LED, in particular DIY, seems to go hand in hand with organics? I love the synergy!


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## SupraSPL (Feb 16, 2015)

Haha yep I went from fluoro->HPS->LED->HPS and back to LED. So I have seen the same cuttings under many lights and conditions and can say with confidence, LED grows the dankest buds by far.

BUT I have not grown much canna with chem nutes so I can't compare. The closest thing I tried was "Age Old Organics". In all honesty even if chem grown weed was superior, I would still grow organic because I am curious about the terpene and cannabinoid profiles that the plant can express "naturally" with little more than compost and manure. I LOVE reusing my soil and not worrying about disease.

Kandy Kush, grown in ROLS that has been continually used for 3-4 years so far.


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## DonPetro (Feb 16, 2015)

SupraSPL said:


> Haha yep I went from fluoro->HPS->LED->HPS and back to LED. So I have seen the same cuttings under many lights and conditions and can say with confidence, LED grows the dankest buds by far.
> 
> BUT I have not grown much canna with chem nutes so I can't compare. The closest thing I tried was "Age Old Organics". In all honesty even if chem grown weed was superior, I would still grow organic because I am curious about the terpene and cannabinoid profiles that the plant can express "naturally" with little more than compost and manure. I LOVE reusing my soil and not worrying about disease.
> 
> ...


Thats exactly what i meant! Building your own lights with superior efficiency and building your own soil mix that keeps on producing year after year! It truly is next level shit and the more people that realize it, the better off we'll all be. Hydro stores better watch out!


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 16, 2015)

For those that cook their soil indoors in like rubber maid containers, do you turn it every so often? I never have before but figured I may as well ask since the top of my soil is completely covered in mycelium.


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> For those that cook their soil indoors in like rubber maid containers, do you turn it every so often? I never have before but figured I may as well ask since the top of my soil is completely covered in mycelium.


 I found if I didn't turn it periodically much of it would get a strange damp smell instead of being sweet and 'earthy' so I keep turning once a week in tubs.


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## DonPetro (Feb 16, 2015)

I also turn it periodically. Helps keep even moisture throughout.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 16, 2015)

Thanks guys, I'll go turn it now.


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## a senile fungus (Feb 16, 2015)

That reminds me! Gotta turn my soil tonight!

The worms are doing well, they've stopped trying to escape their new home and are currently munching on the rotting food in there.

I've been leaving chunk of fruits and veggies to see what they prefer. So far they go nuts for my puree of banana peels, grapes, apples, green pepper parts, strawberries, lettuce, carrots, avocado skins, eggs shells. I have a bin where I let the puree start to rot, then it moves over to the worm bin and they immediately start working on it. 

The also like the bananas as well, but definitely prefer the puree. That's good because I have a blender dedicated to them, and I will continue to mulch their food for them. It degrades much more quickly that way as well.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 16, 2015)

I need to order some new worms now that I think about it. I upgraded their home quite a bit. Where do you guys source yours from?


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 16, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> How does stuff like Great White work then?


Great White (and other myco products) come in the form of a dormant spore. Once water is added they wake from their slumber. 




a senile fungus said:


> The also like the bananas as well, but definitely prefer the puree. That's good because I have a blender dedicated to them, and I will continue to mulch their food for them. It degrades much more quickly that way as well.


I was using my wifes expensive blender for my worm bins for a while. After listening to her bitch about for a month I picked up a used one at a garage sale for $2. That is now the official worm food blender


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I need to order some new worms now that I think about it. I upgraded their home quite a bit. Where do you guys source yours from?


i got my worms locally, about two years ago, they have since multiplied by the thousands, one worm bin turns into two, two to four so on and so on


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Great White (and other myco products) come in the form of a dormant spore. Once water is added they wake from their slumber.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


HA u gave in!  my girl ended up buying a new one, just a matter of time until I get my hands on that one


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 16, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> HA u gave in!  my girl ended up buying a new one, just a matter of time until I get my hands on that one



LOL! You're playing with fire FFH!

Don't know how long you've been married, but I just try to avoid the drama anymore. I cave on a lot of stuff now that I would have dug my heels in over before. She keeps my balls in a jar under the kitchen sink for me.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Great White (and other myco products) come in the form of a dormant spore. Once water is added they wake from their slumber.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hahaha I went through this with my girls measuring cups. "Is that bat shit in MY MEASURING CUP?!?" XD


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## earthling420 (Feb 16, 2015)

That is some crazy ass bud Supra.. holy shit.
Thanks guys. I want turning my soil and it smelled like poop when I finally did :/
I might add worms to my pots when I get a worm bin going.
I wanna make a perpetual flow through system. But for now I just want at least a worm bin lol
Thanks Stow that makes sense now!


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 16, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> While we're on the subject, here's a soil mix excerpt from my book (only step 1):
> 
> *How to Organically Garden in 8 easy-to-moderately bothersome steps:*
> 
> ...


Every so often you find a grower that OBVIOUSLY knows WTF they are doing.
Contrary to how long you have been on a forum or however many "posts" you have.
Good shit my man.
Almost verbatim to EXACTLY the way I grow. Couple differences but almost identical.
For example, to counter the peats acidity I like oyster shells as part of my aeration as well as biochar, I like my secret ingredient of mashed up insects to add chitin and a good amount of micros and macros.
Good write up.


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 16, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I would say rock dust is rock dust and can be used at similar rates. Aluminosilicate clays are not rock dust.
> 
> P-


VERY true, especially when you take into consideration you are re-using your soil over an over... hence allowing the aluminosilicate to break itself down.
You don't really want aluminum in your re-used soil...
ok for short term but in the long run it'll be absorbed by the plant


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## zonderkop (Feb 17, 2015)

smashed-up insects, eh. do you catch your own? where do you get your bug bits?

thanks for the kind words.


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## Mohican (Feb 17, 2015)

I met with a grower who had a bug zapper light on his patio, and the frogs would stand underneath it and eat the fried bugs. Told him he should collect the dead bugs for his soil.


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## zonderkop (Feb 17, 2015)

looks like you can also buy bug poop for chitin: http://www.onfrass.com

lolz.


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 17, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> looks like you can also buy bug poop for chitin: http://www.onfrass.com
> 
> lolz.


screw that dude, you want chitin?
I got a tip for a MASS amount of it.
Go to the feed store and look for a bucket of dried whole mealworms and crickets. and then mash those bastards up.
I call it insect meal. and it's awesome.
I have NO idea how much NPK is in it, but I don't care.
Lots and lots of chitin there, and it breaks down better than crab meal.


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## DonPetro (Feb 17, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> screw that dude, you want chitin?
> I got a tip for a MASS amount of it.
> Go to the feed store and look for a bucket of dried whole mealworms and crickets. and then mash those bastards up.
> I call it insect meal. and it's awesome.
> ...


Have ever done a side by side with and without the "bug meal"? I think it would make a great amendment.


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## PSUAGRO. (Feb 17, 2015)

Has anyone noticed a reduction in pests when using frass/ground up insects as an amendment???


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 18, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Have ever done a side by side with and without the "bug meal"? I think it would make a great amendment.


NOPE, this is my first run with them, I "discovered" it while looking for insect frass, and I figured... WHOA.... chitin baby! and ya gotta think ground up bugs are high in like micronutrients or something...
At least nitrogen..
But no, no side by side, and sadly it won't really mean a whole lot, my soil mix is pretty dialed in so (not to brag) but my plants look pretty great either way.
I don't use it for the plants overall vigor/NPK values, I use it solely as a chitin/chitinase source, an IPM, i'm always battling the mites out here, My grow is in a redwood forest, inside, so I get exposed to mites regularly... they are everywhere.
Neem meal, insect meal, and crab meal are my IPMs, and I spray with French lavender sprays (my own) with aloe, and I recently used @Pattahabi version of an emulsified neem oil.
Only thing is, I lessended the amount of my normal alfalfa meal to allow for the addition of the insect meal, so we will see if I run a lil light green at the end.
Like a LOT of things I've experimented with, it won't be conclusive, I don't have the space nor the time to do a proper scientific controlled test.
We will see if the mites are less though...
Course I added variables to that as well using pattahabi spray...
so anyways...
Just a stoner and his theories is all I am.


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## Mohican (Feb 18, 2015)

Stoner plus notebook makes you a scientist!


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 18, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Has anyone noticed a reduction in pests when using frass/ground up insects as an amendment???


so far, so good, but see my last post, I also have used a different spray approach, but even prior to that the mites are actually significantly lessened than my normal probs, and the brown and red mites are all gone, it's just the good ole two-spot I have now...
but we are talking about a minuscule amount compared to my usual struggle.
Course we all know a minuscule amount can turn into a clusterfuck webbing in a couple days...


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 18, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Stoner plus notebook makes you a scientist!


hah, and i'm growing a sannie freebie of the mad scientist too...
irony?
perhaps not..


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## hyroot (Feb 18, 2015)

castings have chitin too. Dont forget that one.


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## hyroot (Feb 18, 2015)

wtf all my worms are gone. I guess they died. I have 2 bins. It boggles my mind. I harvested them less than a month ago and there were handfuls of worms. Now they're all gone. Now I get to spend more money. Oh joy


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 19, 2015)

hyroot said:


> wtf all my worms are gone. I guess they died. I have 2 bins. It boggles my mind. I harvested them less than a month ago and there were handfuls of worms. Now they're all gone. Now I get to spend more money. Oh joy


Could they have found an escape route?


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## hyroot (Feb 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Could they have found an escape route?


nope. They're in Rubbermaid totes in a walk in closet.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 19, 2015)

hyroot said:


> nope. They're in Rubbermaid totes in a walk in closet.


Damn =/ That's a bummer. It always sucks to lose a worm bin.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 19, 2015)

hyroot said:


> wtf all my worms are gone. I guess they died. I have 2 bins. It boggles my mind. I harvested them less than a month ago and there were handfuls of worms. Now they're all gone. Now I get to spend more money. Oh joy


I had that happen to one of my bins. The fuckers just up and vanished. The only thing I did differently that time was I used different bedding because I was out of coco coir/shredded brown paper, so I used some old peat based soil and composted cow manure. I did some head scratching and started looking on line and came to the conclusion that the cow manure *may* have come from a farm where they used de-worming medication on the cows and the manure wasn't composted long enough to neutralize it.


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## hyroot (Feb 19, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I had that happen to one of my bins. The fuckers just up and vanished. The only thing I did differently that time was I used different bedding because I was out of coco coir/shredded brown paper, so I used some old peat based soil and composted cow manure. I did some head scratching and started looking on line and came to the conclusion that the cow manure *may* have come from a farm where they used de-worming medication on the cows and the manure wasn't composted long enough to neutralize it.


I threw in some peat based recycled soil and coco and leaves for bedding. Harvested the bin. Threw back any uncomposted material into the bin and added coco, dried canna leaves and already washed trim (hash). Then added some pureed romaine lettuce a week later and coffee grounds. But all the worms vanished in both bins. I noticed 3 days ago. I added some more veggie scraps. Checked last night to see if the worms came out from hiding to feed. No worms. Scraps already composted.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 19, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I threw in some peat based recycled soil and coco and leaves for bedding. Harvested the bin. Threw back any uncomposted material into the bin and added coco, dried canna leaves and already washed trim (hash). Then added some pureed romaine lettuce a week later and coffee grounds. But all the worms vanished in both bins. I noticed 3 days ago. I added some more veggie scraps. Checked last night to see if the worms came out from hiding to feed. No worms. Scraps already composted.


Huh. That's crazy.


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 19, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I threw in some peat based recycled soil and coco and leaves for bedding. Harvested the bin. Threw back any uncomposted material into the bin and added coco, dried canna leaves and already washed trim (hash). Then added some pureed romaine lettuce a week later and coffee grounds. But all the worms vanished in both bins. I noticed 3 days ago. I added some more veggie scraps. Checked last night to see if the worms came out from hiding to feed. No worms. Scraps already composted.


that's a lot of new "greens" to break down, canna leaves, hash trim.... and the pureed lettuce? maybe it got a lil warm.. thermo-compost started and cooked em a lil?
You also said you harvested them, did you tumble it? or use some kind of strainer? maybe you microscopically damaged their skin and they died?
That's weird though. Go through your _differences_ what did you do differently this time than usual.
Temps in your area? Course you said it was inside...
Were the leaves for the bedding from a know safe source? Not from a roadside or something... I would guess since their bodies are so simple that even a lil pesticide or engine oil/coolant/hydraulic fluid/ etc, etc, etc, all that would probably kill them all off.
Was the hash tumble processed or chemical? Kinda knowing you I assume it wasn't chemicals..
And the fact that they literally kinda melt when they die too. Makes it hard to see what the hell happened..
Hmm..
That really sucks though, not knowing what you did wrong.


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## AllDayToker (Feb 19, 2015)

Whats up organic crew, so I'm kind of in a situation I could use some help with.

It's winter, and my house is drier then hell. I have a harvest coming any day now, and my usual drying area, as well as everywhere else in the house, is way to dry and don't want my buds drying to quick. I tried adding humidity to the room but it only went up a few % with my small humidifier.

Is there some sort of method I could use, maybe a box of some sorts, or possible paper bags, to dry my buds before I cure.

I typically don't hang dry, I have drying racks I use.

Right now the drying room I usually work in is 60F and around 30-35% humidity.


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## earthling420 (Feb 19, 2015)

Bout to start fresh see my true power ( the dirt) lol anyone have experience germing seed after soaking in humid acid for 24 hours?
I think ill just fem it in the soil to be safe. my beautiful soil


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 19, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Whats up organic crew, so I'm kind of in a situation I could use some help with.
> 
> It's winter, and my house is drier then hell. I have a harvest coming any day now, and my usual drying area, as well as everywhere else in the house, is way to dry and don't want my buds drying to quick. I tried adding humidity to the room but it only went up a few % with my small humidifier.
> 
> ...


hang dry whole plant or at least whole branches (sunleaves and all) and put them in a brown paper bag, twist up the top of the bags, and dry them inside it, it'll slow the drying process.
the least amount of "wounds" the better, and by "wounds" I mean any part of the plant that'll bleed when you cut it, you don't want to take any of the leaves off for that purpose. Every wound will allow the plant to transpire it's liquids faster which of course facilitates the drying process.
I really hate line racks, always dry too fast for my liking.
The slower the better for me.
but I do it solely for me, not large commercial stuff


----------



## AllDayToker (Feb 19, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hang dry whole plant or at least whole branches (sunleaves and all) and put them in a brown paper bag, twist up the top of the bags, and dry them inside it, it'll slow the drying process.
> the least amount of "wounds" the better, and by "wounds" I mean any part of the plant that'll bleed when you cut it, you don't want to take any of the leaves off for that purpose. Every wound will allow the plant to transpire it's liquids faster which of course facilitates the drying process.
> I really hate line racks, always dry too fast for my liking.
> The slower the better for me.
> but I do it solely for me, not large commercial stuff


Well manicuring after the leaves and such are dry sounds like a giant pain to me, but if it's my only choice to slow down the dry and get good product then I gotta do what I gotta do.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 19, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Well manicuring after the leaves and such are dry sounds like a giant pain to me, but if it's my only choice to slow down the dry and get good product then I gotta do what I gotta do.


it certainly is a pain. Believe me I've tried numerous ways to cure and unfortunately it's the best for taste and smoke.
there are a couple shitty parts of pot growing.
1.cloning.
2.trimming.
3.harvesting worm castings.
I LOVE the rest of it, but reaaaaally could go without ever having to trim again...
If it gets humid take the bags off, or "burp" them like you would jars, you'd be surprised how much water/moisture bags can hold.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 19, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Well manicuring after the leaves and such are dry sounds like a giant pain to me, but if it's my only choice to slow down the dry and get good product then I gotta do what I gotta do.


It's really not ADT. I used to trim while the buds were still wet, which worked great in the summer (humid) but my shit dried out too quick in the winter, so I started doing what grease recommended above and it works great. The plants will dry much slower, and it's actually easier to trim when the leaves are dry and brittle.... at least for me.


----------



## AllDayToker (Feb 19, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> It's really not ADT. I used to trim while the buds were still wet, which worked great in the summer (humid) but my shit dried out too quick in the winter, so I started doing what grease recommended above and it works great. The plants will dry much slower, and it's actually easier to trim when the leaves are dry and brittle.... at least for me.





greasemonkeymann said:


> it certainly is a pain. Believe me I've tried numerous ways to cure and unfortunately it's the best for taste and smoke.
> there are a couple shitty parts of pot growing.
> 1.cloning.
> 2.trimming.
> ...



Alright so just cut it into branches and throw them in a paper bag, and close it up. Seems simple enough.

How much do you normally put in one bag? Or do you just watch the humidity? I can throw a hygrometer in the bag with them.


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 19, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright so just cut it into branches and throw them in a paper bag, and close it up. Seems simple enough.
> 
> How much do you normally put in one bag? Or do you just watch the humidity? I can throw a hygrometer in the bag with them.


well depending on the strain of course..
but like I said the less "wounds" the better.
I've only had to do this method 3 times, never had to check the humidity numbers, after all the harvests I've done you kinda get a "feel" for it... I know that doesn't help. Sorry.
If it's too dry, you really don't need to worry about a hydrometer, the paper bags don't hold the moisture THAT well, not like a plastic bag would. Just slows the evaporation of the plant.
If you have squatty indicas try and put the whole plant into a bag, if you have sativa hybrids then go by branch.
If it's REALLY dry you can also tie small plastic bags/ or plastic wrap around the ends of the branches to slow the drying as well. Usually you don't need to go THAT far.
Your first sentence is spot on.
"Alright so just cut it into branches and throw them in a paper bag, and close it up. Seems simple enough."
exactly.


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## Mohican (Feb 19, 2015)

You can also use your bathroom as the drying room. It will be the most humid room in the house and you can run the shower or fill the tub to increase the humidity.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 19, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright so just cut it into branches and throw them in a paper bag, and close it up. Seems simple enough.
> 
> How much do you normally put in one bag? Or do you just watch the humidity? I can throw a hygrometer in the bag with them.


I keep it pretty simple. I remove the larger fan leaves, then cut the plant at the base of the trunk. I then hang the whole plant. If it's really dry I will fill a 5 gallon bucket up with water and leave it beneath where the plants are drying for a little moisture as it dissipates. This time of year it takes a week to 10 days to dry. I then remove individual branches and get to trimming. That's it.


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## Mohican (Feb 19, 2015)

I have also seen people use grow tents to control the RH. Closets and small closed areas will increase in humidity from the plant. My indoor space is very air-tight and stays right at 65% RH. I can dry forever in there and they never get harsh.

I had to use the hot dry sun last year to get some of the denser buds to dry!




Cheers,
Mo


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2015)

I overdo everything, so I keep the bud & branch upside down on christmas ornament hooks on little clotheslines in a tote with a fan. I monitor the rH to 60-70%. Pretty high, but constant air movement. I do that for 7 days. I feel the chlorophyll breaks down. Chemical reactions continue for a bit. I do this at 70F.

Then I trim bud from branch and place in 1/2 gallon mason jars. 1/2 full, jars laid on their sides so the bud is about 1-2 layers of bud deep on the bottom. Each jar has a calibur III hygrometer and I burp the bud a few times daily as I slowly draw the Rh to 65%. That's about a week. I can then stand the jars back upright, maybe consolidate a few. Then another 3 weeks of less frequent burping to get to 60% where I leave it.

I got all of this from the famous Simon threads

That's what I do. Probably a waste of time... lol


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## earthling420 (Feb 20, 2015)

if my dirt went anaerobic, could I still dry it and cook properly?
Any organic growers growing shrooms? im gonna look into doing that soon been reading on it. Was just curious.
I also cant wait to build my own led light 
Ch ch ch changes! Big things happening lol


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## DonTesla (Feb 20, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I have also seen people use grow tents to control the RH. Closets and small closed areas will increase in humidity from the plant. My indoor space is very air-tight and stays right at 65% RH. I can dry forever in there and they never get harsh.
> 
> I had to use the hot dry sun last year to get some of the denser buds to dry!
> 
> ...


Mo, do you wanna rent me a chair to sleep on... I will securely watch those buds for you at night.. Lol
I will move to Cali and get a place so The Dons have a better winter set up..
How much to rent and or buy a 1200sq ft place around there.. We need to fix our winter blues buddy


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 20, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> if my dirt went anaerobic, could I still dry it and cook properly?
> Any organic growers growing shrooms? im gonna look into doing that soon been reading on it. Was just curious.
> I also cant wait to build my own led light
> Ch ch ch changes! Big things happening lol


Get a Presto 23 qt pressure cooker off amazon and don't get spores til you have your setup, set up.. They go limp over time aka 60 days and no Viagra gonna help no matter how much ya pop..lol
I know someone who just wasted some spores going about it backwards..


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## Scotch089 (Feb 20, 2015)

So I called my buddy that works at the hydro store and asked what I could do about gnats and after running off some at home remedies or products I could have in my arsenal (but dont) he recommended a product called Azomax to put in with my waterings to eliminate the larvae, he said it is just need oil diluted to a lower molecular weight so it doesn't build up in the soil which is great. But I am wondering if I should just buy neem oil and dilute it myself. Could this be more cost effecfive or give me a longer lasting supply like agsil vs protekt? Had anyone diluted their neem to use as a drench?


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 20, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> So I called my buddy that works at the hydro store and asked what I could do about gnats and after running off some at home remedies or products I could have in my arsenal (but dont) he recommended a product called Azomax to put in with my waterings to eliminate the larvae, he said it is just need oil diluted to a lower molecular weight so it doesn't build up in the soil which is great. But I am wondering if I should just buy neem oil and dilute it myself. Could this be more cost effecfive or give me a longer lasting supply like agsil vs protekt? Had anyone diluted their neem to use as a drench?


Azamax is a concentrated neem essentially. Personally I'd have to have a terrible issue going on to drench my soil with it. I have used it in the past, but only as a foliar for mites and thrips.

What have you tried so far that isn't working?


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## Scotch089 (Feb 20, 2015)

Shit that's the opposite of what he told me.. I have trieddddd NOTHING lol. Just want to kick em


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 20, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Shit that's the opposite of what he told me.. I have trieddddd NOTHING lol. Just want to kick em


No offense to your buddy, but hydro store peeps aren't the best source for info. At least around here they aren't.

When I was battling fungus gnats I found that using some IPM's like neem seed meal and crab shell meal in my soil worked well. Also if you inoculate your soil with BTI bits that works well too. If you have an infestation right now buy some BTI bits and top dress some, and then lay out a few of those yellow stick traps to snag the adults.


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## Pattahabi (Feb 20, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Azamax is a concentrated neem essentially. Personally I'd have to have a terrible issue going on to drench my soil with it. I have used it in the past, but only as a foliar for mites and thrips.
> 
> What have you tried so far that isn't working?


Just to clarify, azamax is not really concentrated neem. It's an extraction of azadirachtin from the neem tree. Besides Azadirachtin there are several others (365 total) of which about 8% provide either insecticide or fungicide compounds (nimbin and salanin being the strongest pesticide from the tree). I always shake my head thinking if they haven't even identified all the compounds in neem, how the hell are they extracting one of those compounds and making it 'better than neem'? 

I agree with Stow, drenching with azamax or neem would be a last ditch effort. I had root aphids once and tried it. I think the drench did more damage than the aphids.

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 20, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> So I called my buddy that works at the hydro store and asked what I could do about gnats and after running off some at home remedies or products I could have in my arsenal (but dont) he recommended a product called Azomax to put in with my waterings to eliminate the larvae, he said it is just need oil diluted to a lower molecular weight so it doesn't build up in the soil which is great. But I am wondering if I should just buy neem oil and dilute it myself. Could this be more cost effecfive or give me a longer lasting supply like agsil vs protekt? Had anyone diluted their neem to use as a drench?


Bti, neam/karanja meal and or top dress with enough sand to stop the annoying little buggers from laying their foul eggs.


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## Scotch089 (Feb 20, 2015)

Thanks dudes. Excuse my naive mind but someone remind me what BTI is? Heard it thrown around before it'll be one of those "OOOO!" Moments. I want to avoid layering sand for top dressing and mixing it with the soil later on, my "infestation" isn't bad by Any means I'm just trying to stay ahead of the weather for when it warms up. I have 4-5 spotted at a time. Just don't want to have a headache roll around summer. I can top dress with neem meal obviously? My soils already cooked and ready I don't really want to amend the whole batch (would it need time to break down and If I did amend the whole batch with it would it deter the fuckers or only as topdress?) I should have bought some crab she'll meal when I bought my amendments. are these similar to anything else being how long they take to be available? I do still have 83 days till I'm able to grow my favorite plant.


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2015)

The Neem, BTI (Mosquito dunks - a bacteria), crab shell, nematodes are all things great to start a soil with before planting


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 20, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Thanks dudes. Excuse my naive mind but someone remind me what BTI is? Heard it thrown around before it'll be one of those "OOOO!" Moments. I want to avoid layering sand for top dressing and mixing it with the soil later on, my "infestation" isn't bad by Any means I'm just trying to stay ahead of the weather for when it warms up. I have 4-5 spotted at a time. Just don't want to have a headache roll around summer. I can top dress with neem meal obviously? My soils already cooked and ready I don't really want to amend the whole batch (would it need time to break down and If I did amend the whole batch with it would it deter the fuckers or only as topdress?) I should have bought some crab she'll meal when I bought my amendments. are these similar to anything else being how long they take to be available? I do still have 83 days till I'm able to grow my favorite plant.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 20, 2015)

^Holy shit that's a big picture^


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## Rrog (Feb 20, 2015)

'Cause it works!


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## Mohican (Feb 20, 2015)

I tried a few natural deterrents and surprisingly the one that worked was simply topdressing with some fresh promix about one inch thick. I watered it in and I have not seen any more bugs!


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 21, 2015)

I found a normal straw mulch will stop adults from laying eggs in your soil. So many ways to break the life cycle. A buddy of mine likes plastic mulch over his mulch, works a charm too. Looks a bit crazy when you lift the plastic though. Raw mycelium twisting over itself in that top layer. I don't like the look of it too fungal to look safe to me. Anything that dries quickly should work as a top dress. Just from my experience, don't try perlite... the stuff floats so when you water it can make some problems. Messy ones.


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## Mohican (Feb 21, 2015)

I was trying to keep an experimental worm bin in a plastic trash can with no drainage. Not a good idea. No surviving worms and the soil stinks. I poured it out over the compost pile to let it get baked by the sun and broken down by the good bugs in the pile. Smelled like manure!

I keep watering it and letting it bake. I hope it can be saved.


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## earthling420 (Feb 21, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Get a Presto 23 qt pressure cooker off amazon and don't get spores til you have your setup, set up.. They go limp over time aka 60 days and no Viagra gonna help no matter how much ya pop..lol
> I know someone who just wasted some spores going about it backwards..


 Thanks man. I'll do that. 
Can you tell a difference between fresh shrooms and street sourced shrooms? 
Ever encountered anything like my dirt going anaerobic?
Cheers


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## headtreep (Feb 21, 2015)

Hyroot and moh, was really cool hanging out and tokin up at the IE cup. Very thankful to finally meet.

Really stoked on the development of this thread and the methods we all practice.


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 21, 2015)

I want to hit the US cup circuit next season and come meet all you fellas. Will bring presents lol


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## DonPetro (Feb 21, 2015)

You guys are always talkin about meeting up at cups and such...would love to meet and burn one with some of you cats.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 21, 2015)

I'm still trying to get out to Denver for my first event =/


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## DonTesla (Feb 21, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Thanks man. I'll do that.
> Can you tell a difference between fresh shrooms and street sourced shrooms?
> Ever encountered anything like my dirt going anaerobic?
> Cheers


Yea bro,
Fresh ones are wet and weigh 90% more haha ..

Jk, but all the street mushrooms come from growers who grow fresh right, (you cant grow em dried) minus the BC influxes every fall which can be really shitty here and there (since some amateurs pick non magical types etc)

There are good and bad growers though.. With some strains you gotta wake up middle of the night and take em down before they go past their prime and some ppl are too lazy or too Rough and over bruise their tissues

If someone got books, shelves, 1L mason jars, 99 qt clear totes, presto cooker, their choice for spawn, medical tape etc, then hit up a spore guy they'd be proper

After you germ cleanly _apparently_ you can re flush (re grow) each strain again 2-3 more times, getting bigger fruits er'time

As for anearobic soil, it happened once.. gotta dry it out best you can, unfortunately avoiding letting teas go foul is the best solution.. Now you gotta move air, recycle your soil, or dry it / *freeze it (kills smell),* and re inoculate with fresher bacteria.

Stow probably has some more tricks too

Best luck


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## DonTesla (Feb 21, 2015)

I can hardly wait.. What's the Us cup Circuit and what're the bees knees,of comps down there so we can come for the RIGHT ONE!!!!


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## DonTesla (Feb 21, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I tried a few natural deterrents and surprisingly the one that worked was simply topdressing with some fresh promix about one inch thick. I watered it in and I have not seen any more bugs!


There are a lotta pro mixes bro, did you mean promix vermiculite ?


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 21, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Yea bro,
> Fresh ones are wet and weigh 90% more haha ..
> 
> Jk, but all the street mushrooms come from growers who grow fresh right, (you cant grow em dried) minus the BC influxes every fall which can be really shitty here and there (since some amateurs pick non magical types etc)
> ...


Ah hell it gets a lot more complex than this lol... Consistent high potency shrooms are about isolating a culture. A good culture will have as few possible spores as a source. Each cake of mycelium has many spores as seeds. This is a 'culture' and fruit can vary in consistency by huge amounts. Consistently strong shrooms requires isolating a potent culture. I have seen some myco heads at work down here, and the way can a cuts go around in the US, shroomy cultures are shared over here. For example we get the Texan cubensis, but then a mate of mine isolated what is now known as the 'hillbilly' culture. Point seven grams dry is a hefty dose indeed. A culture can be kept going indefinitly. A single mushee cake the way fellas do it now is good for three flushes yes. But that culture can carry on for EVER. Fascinating and very involving field I wish I had a deeper interest in.


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## Mohican (Feb 21, 2015)

Grow some truffles and you can really make some good money!


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## DonTesla (Feb 21, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Ah hell it gets a lot more complex than this lol... Consistent high potency shrooms are about isolating a culture. A good culture will have as few possible spores as a source. Each cake of mycelium has many spores as seeds. This is a 'culture' and fruit can vary in consistency by huge amounts. Consistently strong shrooms requires isolating a potent culture. I have seen some myco heads at work down here, and the way can a cuts go around in the US, shroomy cultures are shared over here. For example we get the Texan cubensis, but then a mate of mine isolated what is now known as the 'hillbilly' culture. Point seven grams dry is a hefty dose indeed. A culture can be kept going indefinitly. A single mushee cake the way fellas do it now is good for three flushes yes. But that culture can carry on for EVER. Fascinating and very involving field I wish I had a deeper interest in.


Lol, Yeah your right, I was over simplifying since I thought you didn't know much yet hahAha but obviously you do..

Tissue culture is a great subject.. it can also keep marijuana alive for years in a mini tiny jar in agave .. i will love a mini fridge with all my strains..I'm in to find someone on here who knows more, I should start a thread..

Oh and Ham, If you think a point 7 is a small dose of a potent mush you GOTTA GOTTA try The Penis Envies!! 
Had these chocolate bars with quarter grams in them, sometimes a third of a bar would set the stage for fantastic evenings of seeing millions of colourful swastikas re-inverted every single time you'd blink..take 3000mg (3gr) and prepare for 12 hours of reappearing and reconstituting in different parts of the room, literally bending time space and creating dual realities with consciousness alone..

and or albino P.E. versions of them .. they are the only ones that have "paralyzed me" while cooking dinner, forced me to turn EVERYTHING OFF, mid meal, and sit in dark silence, and appreciate the mushroom cloud epiphanies that engulfed each other one after another..instant IQ boost, outta this planet, the albinos do this with bites the size of your pinky nail, ask Petro lol ..

they are a super potent species/culture indeed and are not available via spores.. You need to know a myco culturist with envies on lock, they go for double to triple at festivals because point ones and quarter grams can change your life forever


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 21, 2015)

If you never visit South Africa hit me up my friend. Seems like you will be able to rock the local psy scene no problem. If you like the sky to rain multicoloured pinwheels then it is a good place to visit 


DonTesla said:


> Lol, Yeah your right, I was over simplifying since I thought you didn't know anything hahAha but obviously you do..
> 
> Tissue culture is a great subject.. it can also keep marijuana alive for years in a mini tiny jar in agave i want a mini fridge with all my strains, I'm trying to find someone on here who knows more, I should start a thread..
> 
> ...


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 21, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Grow some truffles and you can really make some good money!


The Truffle Bros in Amsterdam are millionaires no doubt!! And legal....


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## DonTesla (Feb 21, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> If you never visit South Africa hit me up my friend. Seems like you will be able to rock the local psy scene no problem. If you like the sky to rain multicoloured pinwheels then it is a good place to visit


South Africa, wow, that sounds like an experience..I got you covered in Canada then, homie, I'd love to visit SA especially with an invite into a dope ass scene
Wildest trip I took was 15 grams of powdered envies, albinos, and a few other strains, in a tea, that got cooled with 3000 mg vitamin C added..literal OBEs while watching World War Z in theatre, it was the afterlife I swear, all thoughts became a movie, time slowing right down then speeding right up, movie scenes became layered holographic realities, wowzaaa, I went to call a gf and a nurse I couldn't even walk or get in my ride after.. But then I came to, mid-cab ride, estatic with being reunited with mind and body and the endless possibilities, became a freestyling phenom with a sexual energy so potent that it sliced through the ether like laser surgery.. I actually had the balls to tell my hot neighbour I was on such a high sexy frequency that if she s____ed me off she would undoubtedly increase her IQ. Can't lie y'all.. We got pretty freaky, Lmao. Nothing compared to what me and her best friend did though.. WOW.
And Petro knows its wild if a girl makes me say WOW. LOL


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 21, 2015)

Anyone doing a sea of green in a big no til bed.. I picture lots of mini colas in sandbox of supersoil for some reason.. Oh a row of gravy here, a row of Anus there, a row Organic Jack there for the Ol memory..


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## foreverflyhi (Feb 21, 2015)

Did some one day penis envies heheheh jk

Man my mushroom growing days where so dazed. Eventually I had to choose either cannabis or mushrooms, all my last couple mushroom grows went bad. Hard for a stoner like me to be extra clean, always got dirt in between my nails. 

Which brings me to my next point. It's amazing that mostly anything that comes from Hawaii is just amazing in every way. From cannabis to mushrooms. Something in that soil and environment that just makes it mind blowing! I'm guessing volcanic forces, clean water, and multiple growing seasons?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 21, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Anyone doing a sea of green in a big no til bed.. I picture lots of mini colas in sandbox of supersoil for some reason.. Oh a row of gravy here, a row of Anus there, a row Organic Jack there for the Ol memory..


I've debated this, heavily. My mind wants to believe that it would be better than individual planters, but idk


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 21, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Anyone doing a sea of green in a big no til bed.. I picture lots of mini colas in sandbox of supersoil for some reason.. Oh a row of gravy here, a row of Anus there, a row Organic Jack there for the Ol memory..


I went organic SoG in two gal nursery bags a bit back. I quite liked it, but before I could really dial it in I had all these huge girls needing flower, so it kinda just drifted away like so many other things I get up to. At least I got further than with the organic hydro plan. That went literally nowhere. I saw the fellas at Gage post a pic of an ANAEROBIC HYDROPONIC rig involving friggin chocolate I swear to gods. That looks interesting. Ladies were in top health and densely packed. Anyhow, I did try two plants to a five gallon bag. Results were not impressive. One clone grew much bigger than the other. And the two gallon bags yielded better too. Root balls were much smaller than I expected. A from seed plant with that little root mass would yield half what these clones did. Come to think of it, definitely my preferred method for unruly tall satties. Except I will do those in three gal bags they take a bit longer, the Dank Sinatra Remix I ran for the SoG flowers in 60 days flat.


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## Rrog (Feb 21, 2015)

How's MadH doing these days?


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## Mad Hamish (Feb 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> How's MadH doing these days?


I got really grumpy over summer lol. I was freaking out constantly on edge with the stress testing etc. Now winter is arriving so damn fast, ladies are in prayer ad the tent is upgraded... all I can say is I hope you feel as good as I do today my friend!!!


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## DonTesla (Feb 22, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Did...
> Which brings me to my next point. It's amazing that mostly anything that comes from Hawaii is just amazing in every way. From cannabis to mushrooms. Something in that soil and environment that just makes it mind blowing! I'm guessing volcanic forces, clean water, and multiple growing seasons?


That's dope,
Pass dee SeaBreeze Haze Mon!!
Those coastal spots sure grow different vegetaiton with the mistier air..Ocean water air (air by ocean haha) is highly ionized with negative ions and that's apparently why we feel so refreshed by the ocean or on a ship (granted we not sea sick, lol)..it re-energizes us.
Normally we be over-bombarded with positive ions from what ive heard.. I remember cause I was out of mj, lol first time ever. Thank god for Russians and alcohol.. Haha
Anyways, the Dons are super stoked for a RIU potluck cruise slash cannicup im gonna make sure i have impeccable insurance hahaha


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 22, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm still trying to get out to Denver for my first event =/


"Me too!"
is April 18th their main event ?


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 22, 2015)

None of the coastal herb down here is all that great. I will avoid bud from the Garden Route at all costs. It has to be something other than ocean air, or perhaps ours just sucks idk...


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 22, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> South Africa, wow, that sounds like an experience..I got you covered in Canada then, homie, I'd love to visit SA especially with an invite into a dope ass scene
> Wildest trip I took was 15 grams of powdered envies, albinos, and a few other strains, in a tea, that got cooled with 3000 mg vitamin C added..literal OBEs while watching World War Z in theatre, it was the afterlife I swear, all thoughts became a movie, time slowing right down then speeding right up, movie scenes became layered holographic realities, wowzaaa, I went to call a gf and a nurse I couldn't even walk or get in my ride after.. But then I came to, mid-cab ride, estatic with being reunited with mind and body and the endless possibilities, became a freestyling phenom with a sexual energy so potent that it sliced through the ether like laser surgery.. I actually had the balls to tell my hot neighbour I was on such a high sexy frequency that if she s____ed me off she would undoubtedly increase her IQ. Can't lie y'all.. We got pretty freaky, Lmao. Nothing compared to what me and her best friend did though.. WOW.
> And Petro knows its wild if a girl makes me say WOW. LOL


You are truly a ladies man no doubt. It must be your way with words.


----------



## stondded (Feb 22, 2015)

When using fresh aloe vera with only water as a foliar, is it possible for the aloe to leave shiny mucusy like deposits on the leaves? I don't see any other evidence of bugs if it could be that and can't seem to believe it would be powdery mildew as it is not powdery by any means. Any knowledge would b appreciated. BTW veg plants in roots organics bagged soil at the moment under t5s 72°f 38%rh regularly.


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## Pattahabi (Feb 22, 2015)

stondded said:


> When using fresh aloe vera with only water as a foliar, is it possible for the aloe to leave shiny mucusy like deposits on the leaves? I don't see any other evidence of bugs if it could be that and can't seem to believe it would be powdery mildew as it is not powdery by any means. Any knowledge would b appreciated. BTW veg plants in roots organics bagged soil at the moment under t5s 72°f 38%rh regularly.


Yes, I noticed this the other night after an aloe foliar. 

P-


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 22, 2015)

yea I noticed it too, im guessing its from not blending aloe juice very well. when I have a chance im going to clean it off with fresh RO water.
when you have powdery mildew you will know you have PM, I like horsetail for that.


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 22, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Yea bro,
> Fresh ones are wet and weigh 90% more haha ..
> 
> Jk, but all the street mushrooms come from growers who grow fresh right, (you cant grow em dried) minus the BC influxes every fall which can be really shitty here and there (since some amateurs pick non magical types etc)
> ...


LOL i forgot to specify is there a change in potency? like with bud? damn thats some awesome info man thanks. Shrooms sound so complicated right now. 
Ah, I was hoping that was the solution. been trying to dry it out. Seemed like the only natural thing to do lol
Thanks!


Mad Hamish said:


> Ah hell it gets a lot more complex than this lol... Consistent high potency shrooms are about isolating a culture. A good culture will have as few possible spores as a source. Each cake of mycelium has many spores as seeds. This is a 'culture' and fruit can vary in consistency by huge amounts. Consistently strong shrooms requires isolating a potent culture. I have seen some myco heads at work down here, and the way can a cuts go around in the US, shroomy cultures are shared over here. For example we get the Texan cubensis, but then a mate of mine isolated what is now known as the 'hillbilly' culture. Point seven grams dry is a hefty dose indeed. A culture can be kept going indefinitly. A single mushee cake the way fellas do it now is good for three flushes yes. But that culture can carry on for EVER. Fascinating and very involving field I wish I had a deeper interest in.


Holy shit that is gnarly! So is that why you cant grow shrooms in soil? hard to keep it clean?
I gotta try some those lol 
So are spores online reliable?
Ya i feel ya man, fortunately my heart lies with da herb. I would still love to succesfully grow them but dont think i could get as serious with it cuz of bud. And it sounds like a whole another world entirely...


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 22, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Lol, Yeah your right, I was over simplifying since I thought you didn't know much yet hahAha but obviously you do..
> 
> Tissue culture is a great subject.. it can also keep marijuana alive for years in a mini tiny jar in agave .. i will love a mini fridge with all my strains..I'm in to find someone on here who knows more, I should start a thread..
> 
> ...


Fascinating! lmaoo at the colorful swastikas lol thats intense, ive only taken shrooms once but eager to experience it again, hence thinking about growing them.


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 22, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> South Africa, wow, that sounds like an experience..I got you covered in Canada then, homie, I'd love to visit SA especially with an invite into a dope ass scene
> Wildest trip I took was 15 grams of powdered envies, albinos, and a few other strains, in a tea, that got cooled with 3000 mg vitamin C added..literal OBEs while watching World War Z in theatre, it was the afterlife I swear, all thoughts became a movie, time slowing right down then speeding right up, movie scenes became layered holographic realities, wowzaaa, I went to call a gf and a nurse I couldn't even walk or get in my ride after.. But then I came to, mid-cab ride, estatic with being reunited with mind and body and the endless possibilities, became a freestyling phenom with a sexual energy so potent that it sliced through the ether like laser surgery.. I actually had the balls to tell my hot neighbour I was on such a high sexy frequency that if she s____ed me off she would undoubtedly increase her IQ. Can't lie y'all.. We got pretty freaky, Lmao. Nothing compared to what me and her best friend did though.. WOW.
> And Petro knows its wild if a girl makes me say WOW. LOL


Daaaamn. So can anything bad happen like an OD on shrooms? lol im guessing no? 
You're crazy man, that is fucking hilarious!! Great pick up line!
And her bestfriend? lol that's a riot! some nice girlfriends you got lmao
you and petro kill me man. I got a bro too and you guys remind me of us lol
Gotta ask who is older? lol Petro?


----------



## AllDayToker (Feb 22, 2015)

So I'm finally upgrading my air pumps for my teas to a single, more powerful, unit. Been looking at the EcoPlus Commercial Air 1. 

This won't be too strong for my 5g bucket brews will it? Their 20watt Air 2 claims to push 45/lpm, so I figured the 18w would do just a tad less.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B002JLJC0W/ref=ox_sc_act_title_4?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=A25DVOZOPBFMAN


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 22, 2015)

according to this site: http://microbeorganics.com/ having too much air/agitation is a myth except when your water is jumping out everywhere.


----------



## AllDayToker (Feb 22, 2015)

See I've heard rumors that too much air is bad, but I've actually read a lot more often that you can never get too much air.

Just too much movement, like you said, jumping out the bucket lol.

Does anyone use lids on their brews and poke holes in the top to prevent foam over flow or prevent splashing?


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 22, 2015)

Oh yea, gotta keep it fresh and freaky homie! I had both girls in the one boyfriends bed while he was at work! And one time after that, he was passed out on the front steps next door and she passed out in my bed, had to sneak the neighbour back home with a big bear on the front steps, tricky sticky times, but Ill raise (and or penetrate) a fist to that! lol..

Lethal doses are too big to eat so od is np.
Ima monster on those puppies, only bad thing that can happen is your alter ego might sex-slaughter your neighbour, whether she has bf or not, or tell a fat pig where to stick it..and end up cuffed like I did. Or your mind body and soul separate for a bit, its pretty scary if you start wondering if u ever gonna be back in your body (consciousness is our ultimate form recall) but I would focus on how amazing it is.. Not too often you can astral travel while being awake dawg..

Basically life is a unfolding lucid dream and your thoughts manifest realities, once you realize the power of this and the power of being in your action body it's game on.. Sex is just a side-dish to the increased intelligence and more accurate life approach.. Fears the only enemy we must conquer 

And yea you got it, word is he been sewing oats lil longer than ya boi .. He's like a dirty European swinger at heart stuck in a Canadians body .. Lol
Aren't we all settlers though? Lol, I say lets pop some bottles..
Now where all the RIU playboy bunnies at?



earthling420 said:


> Daaaamn. So can anything bad happen like an OD on shrooms? lol im guessing no?
> You're crazy man, that is fucking hilarious!! Great pick up line!
> And her bestfriend? lol that's a riot! some nice girlfriends you got lmao
> you and petro kill me man. I got a bro too and you guys remind me of us lol
> Gotta ask who is older? lol Petro?


----------



## coughphee.connoiseur (Feb 22, 2015)

( unrelated ) wanting to make my own fish hydrosolate and i was wondering if i could use em-1 microbial inoculant ? as a lacto bacilli serum for the fermentation process of making the fish hydrosolate, please drop some knowledge on me organic guru's!


----------



## coughphee.connoiseur (Feb 22, 2015)

*hydrolysate*


----------



## stondded (Feb 22, 2015)

Thanks for quick reply guys


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 23, 2015)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> ( unrelated ) wanting to make my own fish hydrosolate and i was wondering if i could use em-1 microbial inoculant ? as a lacto bacilli serum for the fermentation process of making the fish hydrosolate, please drop some knowledge on me organic guru's!


Yup, I've used em1 in my turtle tank to help keep it clean, also used it too clean bunny cage, I swear it works over night and kills any bad smell. Point being is I'm sure it will help in most decomposing processes and also help eliminate any bad smell


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 23, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Yes, I noticed this the other night after an aloe foliar.
> 
> P-


Hey P, 
How much aloe should one use? I am getting an aloe plant now ..

Also, what's your ratio for the pure organic coco water ?

Thanks!


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 23, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Hey P,
> How much aloe should one use? I am getting an aloe plant now ..
> 
> Also, what's your ratio for the pure organic coco water ?
> ...


Hope you guys are gonna get along now...just sayin. Lol


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 23, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ...I like my secret ingredient of mashed up insects to add chitin and a good amount of micros and macros.


I found this: "Whole dried insects are about 10 percent chitin, more or less." http://www.food-insects.com/Vol2 no3.htm


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 23, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Hope you guys are gonna get along now...just sayin. Lol


Heh heh Lots of interactions.. No scars..
P just barks at shadowy inaccuracies cause he works hard to dig up / document navigate the grey areas, no different then me. I grew to like how defensive he gets, we are influencing organic tactics, after all..
One of my best no gimmick sources for intricate info now on RIU 
Keeps me sharper
And i win sometimes
I'm happy
Lol 

Y'all good cats i figure 
Time for a Cup


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 23, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> I found this: "Whole dried insects are about 10 percent chitin, more or less." http://www.food-insects.com/Vol2 no3.htm


GOOD shit there brother.
I learned me some stuff...
Interesting that chitin has a potential future in curing wounds and such, very interesting....
Next time I wrack my knuckles on a car i'll just rub some ground up bugs in it...
Heh


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 23, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Hey P,
> How much aloe should one use? I am getting an aloe plant now ..
> 
> Also, what's your ratio for the pure organic coco water ?
> ...


DT, for fresh aloe I shoot for approximately one ounce of the goo per gallon. However, more times than not, I just cut a chunk of leaf off and blend it up. I've also stopped scrapping the goo out, I just blend the whole leaf up skin and all. 

As far as coconut water, I only use the powder at 1/4 tsp per gallon. SST's are going to give you a very similar profile.

hth

P-


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 23, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> See I've heard rumors that too much air is bad, but I've actually read a lot more often that you can never get too much air.
> 
> Just too much movement, like you said, jumping out the bucket lol.
> 
> Does anyone use lids on their brews and poke holes in the top to prevent foam over flow or prevent splashing?


You should look at diy vortex brewers........no dead spots.

Tbh I stopped doing ss teas and brews because the cons outweighed the pros for me......stepped back and realized a good los is enough for our beloved c3 plant IMO....



greasemonkeymann said:


> GOOD shit there brother.
> I learned me some stuff...
> Interesting that chitin has a potential future in curing wounds and such, very interesting....
> Next time I wrack my knuckles on a car i'll just rub some ground up bugs in it...
> Heh


Raw unpasteurized honey should be on your short list........with studies to back it up


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 23, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> DT, for fresh aloe I shoot for approximately one ounce of the goo per gallon. However, more times than not, I just cut a chunk of leaf off and blend it up. I've also stopped scrapping the goo out, I just blend the whole leaf up skin and all.
> 
> As far as coconut water, I only use the powder at 1/4 tsp per gallon. SST's are going to give you a very similar profile.
> 
> ...


Wow wow with the skin?! Man that would make my life easier lol


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 23, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Wow wow with the skin?! Man that would make my life easier lol


FFH it is my understanding the skin is perfectly fine for plant use. Something about humans not finding the skin palatable? I've done it for about a dozen sprayings now, and I've not seen any adverse effects. If you are willing, try it and let me know what you think.

P-


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

Really some great info that's shared in this thread. I don't think a page has gone by where I haven't learned something new. One of the best threads on this site IMO


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

I vote this thread and supras cob thread in the led section.

Leds plus organics = best herb in the world!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 24, 2015)

Anyone ever seen these little bugs in their worm bins before? I've only had mine for a few months now so pardon my ignorance if they're normal. They're about the size of a grain of sand or so.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen these little bugs in their worm bins before? I've only had mine for a few months now so pardon my ignorance if they're normal. They're about the size of a grain of sand or so. View attachment 3358466


Mites I believe, they are cool


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen these little bugs in their worm bins before? I've only had mine for a few months now so pardon my ignorance if they're normal. They're about the size of a grain of sand or so. View attachment 3358466


Soil mites would be my *guess*.

I get springtails in my worm bins


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 24, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Mites I believe, they are cool





st0wandgrow said:


> Soil mites would be my *guess*.
> 
> I get springtails in my worm bins


I was hoping they were some sort of beneficial (or at least not harmful) organism. 

I don't know what I'd do without this thread x]


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I was hoping they were some sort of beneficial (or at least not harmful) organism.
> 
> I don't know what I'd do without this thread x]


I believe they are beneficial?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen these little bugs in their worm bins before? I've only had mine for a few months now so pardon my ignorance if they're normal. They're about the size of a grain of sand or so. View attachment 3358466


uhh, aren't those worm cocoons?
Or am I missing something?
Either way don't worry.
A thimble full of vermicompost has TONS of critters in there, all kinds of weird looking alien-things.
Sorta reminds me of that cheesy 80s movie "honey I shrunk the kids"
I sorta wanna be shrunk and go investigate my wormbin...
Ahh crap, i'm glad I already have a beautiful girlfriend.... cuz statements like that def increase my douche-factor.
Shhh, nobody say anything...


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 24, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> I vote this thread and supras cob thread in the led section.
> 
> Leds plus organics = best herb in the world!


you know....
Never thought i'd say this... but I think I may be changing my "HID ONLY" philosophy...might need to do some research on some LEDS.
I've been using HIDs since the mid 90s.
And I know virtually NOTHING about them, other than their applications in the auto industry, I understand diodes and such rather competently, they use them in DC applications frequently, especially when using AC generators/alternators. Generator produces AC and then it's changed to DC..
Anyways..
Which of you No-tillers are using LEDS anyways?


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen these little bugs in their worm bins before? I've only had mine for a few months now so pardon my ignorance if they're normal. They're about the size of a grain of sand or so. View attachment 3358466


Yea those look like cocoons. Soil mites will have similar color though. Either way all good. If they are mites they should scurry about; they don't care for light much like the worms. They are harmless though. You just don't want them out-competing your worms for food. If you feel you have to many put a rotten apple core or watermelon rind on top of your bedding. They will swarm it in a day or two then just pick it out and toss it in the compost pile.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> I vote this thread and supras cob thread in the led section.
> 
> Leds plus organics = best herb in the world!





greasemonkeymann said:


> you know....
> Never thought i'd say this... but I think I might need to do some research on some LEDS.
> I've been using HIDs since the mid 90s.
> And I know virtually NOTHING about them, other than their applications in the auto industry, I understand diodes and such rather competently, they use them in DC applications frequently, especially when using AC generators/alternators. Generator produces AC and then it's changed to DC..
> ...


120w DIY LED panel.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> 120w DIY LED panel.
> View attachment 3358516


ok and feel freely to yell at me and say "go check the LED stickys"
but whats that 120w cover? Meaning how much area?


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 24, 2015)

i use area 51 leds. for their 150w model they suggest: Minimum: 24"x24" Maximum: 36"x36" Optimal: 24"x30" footprints


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

That panel is one of four and together they cover a 4x4 area so 30w/sq.ft.


greasemonkeymann said:


> ok and feel freely to yell at me and say "go check the LED stickys"
> but whats that 120w cover? Meaning how much area?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> That panel is one of four and together they cover a 4x4 area so 30w/sq.ft.


Gotcha.. i'll spare ya my newb questions.... reading the LED section now.
Should be an expert in about a week.
At least I already know how to solder and wire stuff.
One more question though.. if you don't mind.
Did you use HIDs prior to the LEDS?
I'm curious on the end-product differences..


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Yea those look like cocoons. Soil mites will have similar color though. Either way all good. If they are mites they should scurry about; they don't care for light much like the worms. They are harmless though. You just don't want them out-competing your worms for food. If you feel you have to many put a rotten apple core or watermelon rind on top of your bedding. They will swarm it in a day or two then just pick it out and toss it in the compost pile.


Build your own for best efficiency, I'm currently breaking 1gpw with these diy set up, similar to the pic above by the don
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-cree-cxa3070.789575/unread

Don't want to build your own?

Look into reputiable companies like Area 51 or apache tech


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Yea those look like cocoons. Soil mites will have similar color though. Either way all good. If they are mites they should scurry about; they don't care for light much like the worms. They are harmless though. You just don't want them out-competing your worms for food. If you feel you have to many put a rotten apple core or watermelon rind on top of your bedding. They will swarm it in a day or two then just pick it out and toss it in the compost pile.


If mites scurry about and avoid light, than that's definitely what these are. To be honest, there probably is way too many in my bin from what I saw.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> uhh, aren't those worm cocoons?
> Or am I missing something?
> Either way don't worry.
> A thimble full of vermicompost has TONS of critters in there, all kinds of weird looking alien-things.
> ...


Looks like 50/50 to me, 50% worm cocoons (bigger ones with protruding dots are def jah cocoons) so congrats!

The smaller ones look like iunno, mites, maybe? id just watch for massive outbreaks! If I find an apple peel/coir chunk or colony of hundreds I scrap that piece, are y'all saying not to worry at all about em!? That'd be cool..

Still merkin' thrips, tho
DT


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> 120w DIY LED panel.
> View attachment 3358516


Gorgeous work DP!!!


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Sorta reminds me of that cheesy 80s movie "honey I shrunk the kids"
> I sorta wanna be shrunk and go investigate my wormbin...


No need to shrink brotha, trust!

If you want a crazy secret trick, try investigating the bin real close for at least 30 mins.. Closer the better.. Zooming into pics even better.

All images get recorded by subconscious mind..automatically.

Then.. Relax.
Then.. Bust your strongest herb.. You're looking for one that has the terpene BORNEAL
it stimulates the third eye and allows for visual and psychedelic effects to occur more easily.

Then, take ONE MASSIVE HOOT, as big as humanly possible..
Then, don't move or talk to anyone.
With eyes closed, and a diet free of fluoride, you will be able to INSTANTLY enter environments of past, micro and macro worlds including.. If your bin inspections were soon before this crazy bowl (deeper = better so joints not as good) then you should naturally enter that world again, via consciousness, in its full living and present moving state.. It's AMAZING

Shamans world wide believe that microscopic lense views are obtainable thru consciousness alone.. Using the third eye they believe it is a dimension of its own when they travel thru blood.

Note ayahuasca ceremonies, it happens there too..with or without shamans thousands of ppl report "seeing there DNA, being "fixed" or "scanned" by energy beings of a different variety

Blood and DNA aside, you can "enter" your canopy or bin and "enjoy bug life views" at 20-100x magnification everyday if you like.. Especially and super easily if you have some Borneal herb.. And some way to relax and take crazy high quality hoots.

It blows my mind every time it happens..
Time for a bowl of Gravy! Mind weapons, mon, mind weapons!

Go nuts!
-DT


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 24, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Build your own for best efficiency, I'm currently breaking 1gpw with these diy set up, similar to the pic above by the don
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-cree-cxa3070.789575/unread
> 
> Don't want to build your own?
> ...


oh i'll build my own, i'm right at home with a DVOM and a soldering iron. Noooo problems there.
1 gram per watt is damn good.
I don't get that with my dual 600s


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> oh i'll build my own, i'm right at home with a DVOM and a soldering iron. Noooo problems there.
> 1 gram per watt is damn good.
> I don't get that with my dual 600s


Most hid grower don't get even close to that unless it's a crazy verticle steroid chemical grow


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Gotcha.. i'll spare ya my newb questions.... reading the LED section now.
> Should be an expert in about a week.
> At least I already know how to solder and wire stuff.
> One more question though.. if you don't mind.
> ...


CFL, HID, cheap Chinese LED. IMO LED grown bud is of higher quality because i feel the light is better used by the plant. The DIY panels will soon be on their virgin flowering run so we'll keep you updated. The reduced heat signature and electrical savings is another reason i love LED.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Gotcha.. i'll spare ya my newb questions.... reading the LED section now.
> Should be an expert in about a week.
> At least I already know how to solder and wire stuff.
> One more question though.. if you don't mind.
> ...


Also note that my panels are entirely solder-less. Even better.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> CFL, HID, cheap Chinese LED. IMO LED grown bud is of higher quality because i feel the light is better used by the plant. The DIY panels will soon be on their virgin flowering run so we'll keep you updated. The reduced heat signature and electrical savings is another reason i love LED.


Although research is still up in the air, @greengenes side by side grow with 1000w hid and 600w apache led, the hid got a couple grams extra, however, in terms of weight (or percentage) of thc or cannaboids, the led side proved to be the winner. I myself and fellow patients have noticed a much higher quality with led grown bud.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Although research is still up in the air, @greengenes side by side grow with 1000w hid and 600w apache led, the hid got a couple grams extra, however, in terms of weight (or percentage) of thc or cannaboids, the led side proved to be the winner. I myself and fellow patients have noticed a much higher quality with led grown bud.


Thats awesome! I strongly believe that our 480w of LED would stomp a 600w hps but i could be wrong.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> CFL, HID, cheap Chinese LED. IMO LED grown bud is of higher quality because i feel the light is better used by the plant. The DIY panels will soon be on their virgin flowering run so we'll keep you updated. The reduced heat signature and electrical savings is another reason i love LED.





foreverflyhi said:


> Although research is still up in the air, @greengenes side by side grow with 1000w hid and 600w apache led, the hid got a couple grams extra, however, in terms of weight (or percentage) of thc or cannaboids, the led side proved to be the winner. I myself and fellow patients have noticed a much higher quality with led grown bud.


I'm gonna have to start picking your brain(s) and get on the LED train. It's about that time where I'll be replacing ballasts anyway


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Also note that my panels are entirely solder-less. Even better.


You're a smooth operator, DP! Can't wait to see you this weekend!! Gonna be a crazy road trip!



st0wandgrow said:


> I'm gonna have to start picking your brain(s) and get on the LED train. It's about that time where I'll be replacing ballasts anyway


Do it Stow !! We've picked your brain so much, its the least we could do! ! (ie Dp)! Lol
I'm so happy his research findings have realigned him a bit more with my initial theories (far reds etc), and then some.. Especially impressive work regarding kelvin temps not having cyan, going completely solder-less from day 1, and just how his overall grasp of the technology and electrical/mechanical side grew to POSITIVITY heights so quickly.. It's really allowed me to venture into researching different sub-subjects since the DIYs were in such good hands.. At night we dream of different sub-subjects (bugs vs heatsinks) then we wake up and pool our knowledge .. 
It's so beautiful! Lol


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> You're a smooth operator, DP! Can't wait to see you this weekend!! Gonna be a crazy road trip!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha! That's great

I'd love to attend your little reunion and pass the baton with you two. That would be a blast! I could go through the Don initiation ceremony and officially be crowned Don Key.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm gonna have to start picking your brain(s) and get on the LED train. It's about that time where I'll be replacing ballasts anyway


I'll never buy a pre-fab light again.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Haha! That's great
> 
> I'd love to attend your little reunion and pass the baton with you two. That would be a blast! I could go through the Don initiation ceremony and officially be crowned Don Key.


Oh man that would be great! Someday.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> I'll never buy a pre-fab light again.


So keeping in mind that I'm about as mechanically inclined as a field mouse, is this something that is within my reach? What's the scale of difficulty?


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm gonna have to start picking your brain(s) and get on the LED train. It's about that time where I'll be replacing ballasts anyway


Bro your already there! Next step is too order the parts!!!! Get on it! Btw the right brain to pick is @SupraSPL , he is like us, Organic terrorist, a fucking genius! I'm sure he would be more then happy on getting you started, I'll put in a good word for ya, and anyone else for that matter. The led section is full of hydro foos, we need to flood that page with true organic shit


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> So keeping in mind that I'm about as mechanically inclined as a field mouse, is this something that is within my reach? What's the scale of difficulty?


Dude, i knew nothing of the subject of DIY LED no more than 6 months ago...
https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-help.845369/
Gained all my knowledge from the LED forum. @SupraSPL 's threads are amazing.
Haven't soldered anything since grade 8 shops class. Still haven't. Have you ever wired an extension cord? Thats my electrical experience up until now. It's amazing how DIY friendly it is. Building 2 panels right now in between checking alerts here on RIU.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

Supra, Almost forgot about that genius.. I think Petro got taught by him too a few thangs.. I suppose when you get trained by the Fantastic Organic Four you become the Fantastic Fifth no vodka.. 

Hats off to all the pioneers simplifying them funny watt-amp-ohm languages..

I know Positivity has thermal imaging skills too

I just love that shit. Literally looking at our designs thrum thermal lenses before they arrive.. That's mad respect..

y'all deserve a Gravy Train Expansion Experience .. I better get me some gypsum.. Still want to know a good source the exact company and physical form .. I know that's like basic for y'all, spit it out please..
Lol

Big up big up
And big hoots


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 24, 2015)

This pictures gives no justice to the size of the these plants.

Full veg mode, covering a 6x8 with 8 plants. Soon to be 600+ cob watts plus a couple area 51 units on light movers.







Old grow
9lbs week 4ish


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> So keeping in mind that I'm about as mechanically inclined as a field mouse, is this something that is within my reach? What's the scale of difficulty?


Look how beautifully simple this is..
Click click click
There's no room to mess this up once you know the right parts to order..
A list of parts is worth like 50.00 to me. I'm sure Petro will share with you on the Dons behalf for free cause your a cool ass cat and have been with us since Strong Week Number 1!
I mean, Lego has more wiggle room for choice here. It's locked in baby, clarity is mad power.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Dude, i knew nothing of the subject of DIY LED no more than 6 months ago...
> (Fast forward)... Building 2 panels right now in between checking alerts here on RIU.


You're an effin Bossman in sheepskin clothing, son!
You need a wildly epic, lion-mane type, hemp robe for down in your LED dungeon factory shop.. Buffalo Slippers to match..With rabbits hopping around your worm farms, and sex-slaves slicing your organic fruit for you..
Oh man, I'd be finding ways to make that road trip more...
Show up like, How's them builds going bro? big smile on my face while I look around the corners..


----------



## Mohican (Feb 24, 2015)

Plants look a bit cold - they are covered with frost! hehe


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Supra, Almost forgot about that genius.. I think Petro got taught by him too a few thangs.. I suppose when you get trained by the Fantastic Organic Four you become the Fantastic Fifth no vodka..
> 
> Hats off to all the pioneers simplifying them funny watt-amp-ohm languages..
> 
> ...


I only used it a few times when I was using coco coir, but it was just called Garden Gypsum. As long as it is calcium sulfate you're fine.

I decided to use it with coir for two reasons. 1) I was lead to believe that coco coir mediums will benefit from additional sulfur, and 2) Gypsum can effectively remove sodium from soil which can be an issue with certain brands of coir that are not sufficiently rinsed. 

There are some downsides to gypsum too that I don't recall ATM, but as long as you aren't too heavy handed with it you should be fine. It's one of the more faster acting minerals so you should be able to observe the pros and cons pretty quickly.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Thats awesome! I strongly believe that our 480w of LED would stomp a 600w hps but i could be wrong.


On riu here, your boy, Who is that again using 600w DIY led to replace their _*TWO 600w Hps's*_.. 
I love it.. Primed for the first run, building a mother bed as we speak.. Got a brand new 6" inline exact match for equal dimmer switched air in.. Ohhwee son. The Forrest, Gravy and Koshers are gonna be soooo happy.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I only used it a few times when I was using coco coir, but it was just called Garden Gypsum. As long as it is calcium sulfate you're fine.
> 
> I decided to use it with coir for two reasons. 1) I was lead to believe that coco coir mediums will benefit from additional sulfur, and 2) Gypsum can effectively remove sodium from soil which can be an issue with certain brands of coir that are not sufficiently rinsed.
> 
> There are some downsides to gypsum too that I don't recall ATM, but as long as you aren't too heavy handed with it you should be fine. It's one of the more faster acting minerals so you should be able to observe the pros and cons pretty quickly.


Is there something else you use for flavour enhancing? I mean, this stuff is tasty, but is the Rev wrong in that its not a big booster .. I think he said it enchanted the terpenes or flavonoids too a bit haha, typo, enhanced..
Edit: Still rocking a peat free mix btw with a hq, salt free, well rinsed, organic coir.. Leaf mold mix won't be gtg till summer


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Bro your already there! Next step is too order the parts!!!! Get on it! Btw the right brain to pick is @SupraSPL , he is like us, Organic terrorist, a fucking genius! I'm sure he would be more then happy on getting you started, I'll put in a good word for ya, and anyone else for that matter. The led section is full of hydro foos, we need to flood that page with true organic shit





DonPetro said:


> Dude, i knew nothing of the subject of DIY LED no more than 6 months ago...
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/diy-led-help.845369/
> Gained all my knowledge from the LED forum. @SupraSPL 's threads are amazing.
> Haven't soldered anything since grade 8 shops class. Still haven't. Have you ever wired an extension cord? Thats my electrical experience up until now. It's amazing how DIY friendly it is. Building 2 panels right now in between checking alerts here on RIU.


Great! I will start checking out Supras threads stat!

So I'm currently running 600 watts in my veg room on a 6 ft light rail, and I have 3 x 1000 watt units in my flower room that move back and forth over head about 18-24" on light rails.

- can an LED be used on a light rail?

- how many watts of LED would I need to piece together to replace the HID's I currently have, and how many panels would that amount to?

I will take this to the LED section tomorrow and not clutter this thread up further, just want something to chew on over night. I've been dreaming about worms lately, time to switch it up a bit.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 24, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Is there something else you use for flavour enhancing? I mean, this stuff is tasty, but is the Rev wrong in that its not a big booster .. I think he said it enchanted the terpenes or flavonoids too a bit haha, typo, enhanced..
> Edit: Still rocking a peat free mix btw with a hq, salt free, well rinsed, organic coir.. Leaf mold mix won't be gtg till summer


Huh. That's news to me DT. It's a mineral, and will eventually end up as a dissolved solid..... which is what brix readings really revolve around, so the rev could be on to something regarding enhanced terpenes but I really can't say for certain.

I love the idea of leaf mold. I have a big ass pile that should be ready come fall and you best believe that I will be experimenting with that stuff!


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

Sorry it was Stardust Sailor who had the thermal imaging skills, my bad.

As for and back to ROLS, I was wondering where the hell that MSG you wrote about your whole in between crop game went, cause it was one hell of a tactful and smooth approach.. Gotta take my favorite msgs and MSG them to myself in potent hyper convo so I don't gotta bug ya or go off on a search like that guy from the Expedia beach commercial hahah


----------



## Joedank (Feb 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen these little bugs in their worm bins before? I've only had mine for a few months now so pardon my ignorance if they're normal. They're about the size of a grain of sand or so. View attachment 3358466


cocoons for sure . what type of worms ya keeping? anybody else put cardboard in the bin deep for breeding ? seems they love the protiens in the glue and the corrigations provide good coocoon grounds according to an old worm dude...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 24, 2015)

Joedank said:


> cocoons for sure . what type of worms ya keeping? anybody else put cardboard in the bin deep for breeding ? seems they love the protiens in the glue and the corrigations provide good coocoon grounds according to an old worm dude...


Red wigglers! I throw some spare cardboard in there every now and then. They swarm it so I keep feeding them it.


----------



## Joedank (Feb 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Red wigglers! I throw some spare cardboard in there every now and then. They swarm it so I keep feeding them it.


i feed mine alot inbtween layers of scraps ...hope there is not some poison that i dont know about in cardboard...


----------



## Scotch089 (Feb 24, 2015)

I love that were talking about a subject I can really dig into. LED fo' life.

The obvious perk is how much less you draw for the same output (given quality emitters), but some people don't understand how nice this is- if I wasn't LED I wouldn't be able to grow or would have to move up to a 20 or 30 amp breaker, and may not given the high wattage on my bill.

My whole system runs under 1400w, veg and flower perpetually, clone room and climate control/pumps/etc.

And 800+ of that is a heater/CA


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 24, 2015)

Joedank said:


> cocoons for sure . what type of worms ya keeping? anybody else put cardboard in the bin deep for breeding ? seems they love the protiens in the glue and the corrigations provide good coocoon grounds according to an old worm dude...


Maybe the tapioca attracts them, lol. Desert for worms perhaps..
Without a doubt the babies love the cardboards canals, big time.
Even better than toilet paper rolls imo which i love, but I only like super clean boxes with no ink or tape..not so much for breeding or cocoons but for safe havens for babies, they are so smart it's funny..


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Huh. That's news to me DT. It's a mineral, and will eventually end up as a dissolved solid..... which is what brix readings really revolve around, so the rev could be on to something regarding enhanced terpenes but I really can't say for certain.
> 
> I love the idea of leaf mold. I have a big ass pile that should be ready come fall and you best believe that I will be experimenting with that stuff!



I'll be watching your experiment for sure!, I'm hoping for great things...........would be a game changer imo

what the hell is an L.E.D.???


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 24, 2015)

Someone should start an Organic/LED showcase thread...


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 24, 2015)

Michigan people, I'll be moving back to my parents horse farm this month. If anyone needs compost hit me up. I'll also be making a large leave mold pile @st0wandgrow , you can have a bunch if you'd like.

My parents have 30acres so I've got lots of grass clippings and horse shit and leaves to out in piles. Lol

Let me know if I can be of service.


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 25, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Oh yea, gotta keep it fresh and freaky homie! I had both girls in the one boyfriends bed while he was at work! And one time after that, he was passed out on the front steps next door and she passed out in my bed, had to sneak the neighbour back home with a big bear on the front steps, tricky sticky times, but Ill raise (and or penetrate) a fist to that! lol..
> 
> Lethal doses are too big to eat so od is np.
> Ima monster on those puppies, only bad thing that can happen is your alter ego might sex-slaughter your neighbour, whether she has bf or not, or tell a fat pig where to stick it..and end up cuffed like I did. Or your mind body and soul separate for a bit, its pretty scary if you start wondering if u ever gonna be back in your body (consciousness is our ultimate form recall) but I would focus on how amazing it is.. Not too often you can astral travel while being awake dawg..
> ...


Of course playa! and lmao fuckin g man well played.
Naturally! good stuff, I agree man. Gots to enjoy da magic high. That's some enlightening stuff dawg, you had me thinking about that for awhile very cool perspective.
Hahaa i figured! Probaably Petro's?? o.0 haha We are and we must now settle in playboy bunnies..



DonPetro said:


> 120w DIY LED panel.
> View attachment 3358516


That's a sexy ass panel you got Petro. Got me fired up to start on mine lol I cant wait.


DonTesla said:


> No need to shrink brotha, trust!
> 
> If you want a crazy secret trick, try investigating the bin real close for at least 30 mins.. Closer the better.. Zooming into pics even better.
> 
> ...


That's fuckin badass goddamit Tesla, I wanna have awesome trips like you someday lol working on it! Mind weapons blowing my mind mon!


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 25, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Haha! That's great
> 
> I'd love to attend your little reunion and pass the baton with you two. That would be a blast! I could go through the Don initiation ceremony and officially be crowned Don Key.


Shit Im down, two spiritual crazy ass organic led bud growin canadians! lol


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 25, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Bro your already there! Next step is too order the parts!!!! Get on it! Btw the right brain to pick is @SupraSPL , he is like us, Organic terrorist, a fucking genius! I'm sure he would be more then happy on getting you started, I'll put in a good word for ya, and anyone else for that matter. The led section is full of hydro foos, we need to flood that page with true organic shit


Lmao Organic Terrorists! Perfect! let's do it.


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 25, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Supra, Almost forgot about that genius.. I think Petro got taught by him too a few thangs.. I suppose when you get trained by the Fantastic Organic Four you become the Fantastic Fifth no vodka..
> 
> Hats off to all the pioneers simplifying them funny watt-amp-ohm languages..
> 
> ...


Buildasoil sells gypsum...Not sure if thats what you lookin for
Damn Tesla that really simplifies things, Im stoked!


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 25, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> I love that were talking about a subject I can really dig into. LED fo' life.
> 
> The obvious perk is how much less you draw for the same output (given quality emitters), but some people don't understand how nice this is- if I wasn't LED I wouldn't be able to grow or would have to move up to a 20 or 30 amp breaker, and may not given the high wattage on my bill.
> 
> ...


fuck ya that is nice man.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 25, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> ...
> Naturally! good stuff, I agree man. Gots to enjoy da magic high. That's some enlightening stuff dawg, you had me thinking about that for awhile very cool perspective.
> !


Thats mad awesome 
You bet, homie, one can leave the solar system through a worm hole in your throat or realize youre dreaming day and or night..

an awareness shift or paradigm shift is not only powerful to the core, but eye opening forever after, and thats why i say a point 2 can be deeply life altering and changing.. It'll change your frequency forever, forget frequently..

Herb or mushrooms or deem, all are made of earth in a sense, is ot not so? Also, interesting isn't it, all come with custom receptors that co evolved within us..

Why else do we have so called "dreams" made of dmt and have CBD receptors in our brain, blood, organs, and lymph system..
Maybe something's up...
Perhaps both are kinds of realities and both are kinds of dreams, and both can be manipulated much faster when? When you realize it's... Just a dream aka a "manipulatable virtual reality" with its own laws and forces and densities.. When realized, That's what we call lucidity, 
But if you look up,the root meaning of lucid, in Latin, it means to shine, be bright, lucidus, stem of light..
Don't fall for the propaganda..
Unturned stones reveal unrealized realities

You sound like a cool cat, I look forward to your leaps..
Just wait til hear about some of our other trips (salvia etc.. They are so wild and mind bending, we should start a thread hey?)


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 25, 2015)

I noticed the led talk, obviously this isn't the forum, but can someone help answer my question? 
I've run into a future problem with the heat from my 600 watt and only having a 15 amp circuit to run everything in my apartment aside from the kitchen on. We have no central air so when summer gets here, I'm mostly fucked to try and run a 5000btu airconditioner plus 600 watt hps, 100 watts in centrifugal fans, my gaming computer, TV, and all of my girlfriends hair appliances. 

So, is the hype about the lack of heat with the upper models (I've been suggested to look at Apache and Area 51) true? If so I'm going to feel stupid for buying a 600 watt kit then turning around and buying an led, but if it keeps me from having to stop my hobby, so be it. I'll get a second job before I quit growing


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 25, 2015)

In general, LEDs produce little heat. I can't imagine it increasing your grow room's temps more than a few degrees, at most.


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 25, 2015)

CMH is another tech that is very low heat. They're still HID, but produce much more usable light then heat. I feel like HPS just pumps out IR all the time...


----------



## foreverflyhi (Feb 25, 2015)

Lol man this thread really blew up!

Ok so let's not side track on the organics and led. I think we should start a led/organic thread here in the organic section. (Bad idea to start in led section, too much bottle minded fools that will ruin it) I nominate @SupraSPL , I knw he is a busy dude, but ill make sure he does it! Give him a couple days, I think it's a perfect idea to help those get started, and get us led organic growers to show off, and spread our knowledge on both subjects. These two subjects go toghther because of our nature of efficiency, sustainability, and love for clean organic smoke. Man I'm fucking excited !!! Got all sorts of pics to share! Once again, let's give it a couple days. "If we build it, they will come" -al bundy


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 25, 2015)

In the meantime the organic show and tell thread could use some LED pics and such...


----------



## SupraSPL (Feb 25, 2015)

Hell yea Organic + LED thread sounds good, both good opportunity for DIY also. We should welcome the org and LED haters too as long as they are willing to have a genuine discussion. Some growers like @churchhaze have hella knowledge about chem ferts, which I think is very important if you are going to go that route. I think of organics as a safer choice for beginners if they want badass results right away. Also, I am very interested in the resilience mindset, knowledge of high efficiency organic method could come in handy in a zombie apocalypse or similar 



Regarding CMH, the SPD is impresssive *except, *the gigantor spike at 825nm that they normally don't show, that is pure radiant heat beamed into the canopy and the nugs.

according to Rives from IC:
"this is the spd chart for the Agro that came out of Gavita's testing".


----------



## a senile fungus (Feb 25, 2015)

I wonder if there is any third party testing of the 315w CDM ED37 4200k that I use...

That's interesting because the x axis on most of my graphs stops around 750 or so... Either way, these do radiate minimal heat, but its very pleasant. I think I'm not depressed this winter because of my CMH in the basement lol


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 25, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'm gonna have to start picking your brain(s) and get on the LED train. It's about that time where I'll be replacing ballasts anyway


PRECISELY why i'm looking at them, that and I know most of your guys are some smart cats... and if its what you prefer then maybe I need to check em out.
But I need to replace my ballasts soon too. got some hrs on em... Well one of them is relatively fresh...
still though


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 25, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Michigan people, I'll be moving back to my parents horse farm this month. If anyone needs compost hit me up. I'll also be making a large leave mold pile @st0wandgrow , you can have a bunch if you'd like.
> 
> My parents have 30acres so I've got lots of grass clippings and horse shit and leaves to out in piles. Lol
> 
> Let me know if I can be of service.


Right on bro! I appreciate the offer!

My wifes father has 15 acres and has a couple horses, and about a half dozen Llamas as well. Sounds great right? Well, he is a conservative old fart and would throw a fucking fit if he knew we were growing, so I can only really hit him up for poop once a year in the spring time for our "veggie garden". If I came to him right now and asked for some he would know something is up. I wouldn't mind telling him that we grow, but the wife doesn't want to deal with him acting like a 10 year old, so.....


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 25, 2015)

SupraSPL said:


> Hell yea Organic + LED thread sounds good, both good opportunity for DIY also. We should welcome the org and LED haters too as long as they are willing to have a genuine discussion. Some growers like @churchhaze have hella knowledge about chem ferts, which I think is very important if you are going to go that route. I think of organics as a safer choice for beginners if they want badass results right away. Also, I am very interested in the resilience mindset, knowledge of high efficiency organic method could come in handy in a zombie apocalypse or similar
> 
> 
> 
> ...



holy shit..............never seen the *full* spd before..............naughty philips

still at almost 2 ppf/w== not a bad low wattage bulb


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Feb 25, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> CMH is another tech that is very low heat. They're still HID, but produce much more usable light then heat. I feel like HPS just pumps out IR all the time...


my issue with the CMH is that it doesn't produce nearly as much lumens.
Don't get me wrong I LOVE using MHs with my HPSs when I flower though.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 25, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> CMH is another tech that is very low heat. They're still HID, but produce much more usable light then heat. I feel like HPS just pumps out IR all the time...


I've been seeing people rave about cmh bulbs more frequently now. I haven't read too much up on them but it seems like it could be an option. Any idea what kind of ballasts run them 100% safely? 
I have also heard what greasemonkey said about the lumens a few times. 


foreverflyhi said:


> Lol man this thread really blew up!
> 
> Ok so let's not side track on the organics and led. I think we should start a led/organic thread here in the organic section. (Bad idea to start in led section, too much bottle minded fools that will ruin it) I nominate @SupraSPL , I knw he is a busy dude, but ill make sure he does it! Give him a couple days, I think it's a perfect idea to help those get started, and get us led organic growers to show off, and spread our knowledge on both subjects. These two subjects go toghther because of our nature of efficiency, sustainability, and love for clean organic smoke. Man I'm fucking excited !!! Got all sorts of pics to share! Once again, let's give it a couple days. "If we build it, they will come" -al bundy


Yes!! I've been wondering for a few months now if someone could do that. That would be a sanctuary to me.


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Feb 25, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've been seeing people rave about cmh bulbs more frequently now. I haven't read too much up on them but it seems like it could be an option. Any idea what kind of ballasts run them 100% safely?
> I have also heard what greasemonkey said about the lumens a few times.
> 
> Yes!! I've been wondering for a few months now if someone could do that. That would be a sanctuary to me.


315w elite agros as seen above^^ run only on specific digi ballasts(cerametek/philips)

205w/330w/860w allstarts run only on magnetic MH ballasts 250w/400w/1000w

400w retrowhite (discontinued/ but can be found for cheap) run only on a 400w magnetic hps ballast.

don't recommend GE/Osram's cmh bulbs, as none are open fixture rated....that I know of?

generally intensity trumps spectrum .........but quality goes up with a ceramic/halide arc vs hps


Edit: important shit I forgot to add because of my craptacular smart phone

The 315w elite agro's digi ballasts only run on 240v, step-up transformer can be used for 120v like sun systems lec fixture at an efficiency loss.

The 860w philips allstart bulb is vertical position only, 205w/330w are universal. All of them will fire on either pulse/probe start MH magnetic ballast=== hence the name

The discontinued retrowhites have a hort/vert position specific bulb......it's in the code # when ordering.

All philips cmh bulbs are primarily designed for a vertical position, running them horizontal will cause a slight spectral shift and marginally faster lumen depreciation.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 25, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> 315w elite agros as seen above^^ run only on specific digi ballasts(cerametek/philips)
> 
> 205w/330w/860w allstarts run only on magnetic MH ballasts 250w/400w/1000w
> 
> ...


Interesting stuff. I need to do some reading.


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 25, 2015)

Posted this up in another thread, but thought I would post it in here. Interesting information from Bioag on colloidal minerals.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 25, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I noticed the led talk..
> 
> So, is the hype about the lack of heat with the upper models (I've been suggested to look at Apache and Area 51) true?.... I'll get a second job before I quit growing



Love dat.
Thermal imaging of a DIY LED..
Bout ten inches away from tops at the moment and starting to get bit curious if 8 inches is possible..


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 26, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Thats mad awesome
> You bet, homie, one can leave the solar system through a worm hole in your throat or realize youre dreaming day and or night..
> 
> an awareness shift or paradigm shift is not only powerful to the core, but eye opening forever after, and thats why i say a point 2 can be deeply life altering and changing.. It'll change your frequency forever, forget frequently..
> ...


Hell ya man. Dawg you blowing my mind again. I read all that multiple times im bout to think about it while I vape some more, that should help... oh ya.
That's what I've read and heard too, changed forever... pretty cool. But I see your point, so little, yet so unforgettable.
Definitely natural, nature ftw!
I don't believe for one second that we weren'tmeant to consume these trtreasures.
What I do think is cool is what you're saying about the lucid reality. Ive often thought this stuff is so awesome for opening up our third eye to the things we need/ should see for whatever reason, maybe a higher power or the matrix lol
Don't worry brotha, no fluoride in my
toothpaste lol propaganda doesn't fool me.
Latin is some cool stuff, that coincidence though! lol crazy!
Thanks homie, I appreciate the kind words. I'm excited too and excited to share em after all the help from RIU and you guys.
Holy hell mate.lol A thread for that sounds like winner!


----------



## earthling420 (Feb 26, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Lol man this thread really blew up!
> 
> Ok so let's not side track on the organics and led. I think we should start a led/organic thread here in the organic section. (Bad idea to start in led section, too much bottle minded fools that will ruin it) I nominate @SupraSPL , I knw he is a busy dude, but ill make sure he does it! Give him a couple days, I think it's a perfect idea to help those get started, and get us led organic growers to show off, and spread our knowledge on both subjects. These two subjects go toghther because of our nature of efficiency, sustainability, and love for clean organic smoke. Man I'm fucking excited !!! Got all sorts of pics to share! Once again, let's give it a couple days. "If we build it, they will come" -al bundy


 This is nothing compared to what it will be like soon....


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 26, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Hell ya man. Dawg you blowing my mind again. I read all that multiple times im bout to think about it while I vape some more, that should help... oh ya.
> That's what I've read and heard too, changed forever... pretty cool. But I see your point, so little, yet so unforgettable.
> Definitely natural, nature ftw!
> I don't believe for one second that we weren'tmeant to consume these trtreasures.
> ...


Awesome dawg ..

Fluoride is one of the key breakers no doubt, 
its no good for organics, and its no good for us.. 

no wonder they try get the kids suckin on toothpaste 
and water fountains from preschool..
Shit was used in nazi camps to keep the inmates docile..
Why they use it still? 
Guess you gotta ask...
you think they want you to know you can bend time?
see the future?
dive in to the past vividly?
Scan blood for disease?
Heal with a belief portal?
Learn stuff while asleep?
Read minds?
Intuitively predict danger?
Have clairaudience warn you?
... naaaaa... not even, ppl like that are impossible to control they think too freely.. They like Lucy, on some crazy Terrence McKenna ish...
If they didn't believe in all this then why do prison bars get made from iron to this day? It inhibits astral travel and dreaming, trapping the soul ..

Watch some docs on ayahuasca and scope out straussman's work on DMT free e book for some of the most insane research ever documented openly .. Books on lucid dreaming, brain waves, dxm studies, PastLRs even, if you can buy into the possibility,
By the time your done, you might not believe you're an earthling!! That's how the deep the rabbit holes go..

And alright,
I think we'll start a thread called
 "_Psychooooooo Stories of a Don Gwan Trippin, Mon_"
_Exploring the cosmos without a rocket._.

You're mad welcome to help navigate that ship into serious mysterious waters


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 26, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Awesome dawg ..
> 
> Fluoride is one of the key breakers no doubt,
> its no good for organics, and its no good for us..
> ...


Terrance had a lot figured out, brilliant man. 
Anyone know how to remove fluoride from water? I already scraped it from my tooth paste a while ago, but America loves their fluoridated water =/ One of few countries left that do it. Although, it is naturally occurring and required by our bodies in small amounts.


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Terrance had a lot figured out, brilliant man.
> Anyone know how to remove fluoride from water? I already scraped it from my tooth paste a while ago, but America loves their fluoridated water =/ One of few countries left that do it. Although, it is naturally occurring and required by our bodies in small amounts.


He was yeah, and will always be. 
Best way is to avoid water that has fluoride added, not to be a non help..
State of the art water facilities have about 10 processes and chemicals they add to the water, so uh, so much for new age advanced healthy gov regulations I know..
But upgrade your source and prosper
Spring
Ro
Snow rain
Glaciers
Distiller
Just do what u can your third eye will thank you
Fluoride goes straight to the precious pineal, no homo, and attracts other bad metals and calcifies your portal gland like a gargoyle at dawn, essentially eliminating all Your secret powers


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Terrance had a lot figured out, brilliant man.
> Anyone know how to remove fluoride from water? I already scraped it from my tooth paste a while ago, but America loves their fluoridated water =/ One of few countries left that do it. Although, it is naturally occurring and required by our bodies in small amounts.


I could be mistaken, but I believe the fluoride they add to our water is not naturally occurring. I think this is actually an industrial byproduct. Definitely not good for us. I totally agree with DonT on this one.

P-


----------



## Pattahabi (Feb 26, 2015)

I should really leave the gloom and doom reading for later in the day lol.

*Water Fluoridation*

P-


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone know how to remove fluoride from water?


http://www.homedepot.com/p/Perfect-Water-Technologies-Home-Master-Jr-F2-Elite-SinkTop-Water-Filtration-System-in-White-TMJRf2E/203841387


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 26, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I could be mistaken, but I believe the fluoride they add to our water is not naturally occurring. I think this is actually an industrial byproduct. Definitely not good for us. I totally agree with DonT on this one.
> 
> P-


I believe you're correct.


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 26, 2015)

yeah, they be better off adding lithium instead: higher lithium levels in the public drinking water are associated with lower suicide rates.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Feb 26, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> yeah, they be better off adding lithium instead: higher lithium levels in the public drinking water are associated with lower suicide rates.


I love close to a 'radio active' spring. Hot spring containing significant lithium amounts. You literally melt in there. Zero stress left.


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## hyroot (Feb 27, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> I love close to a 'radio active' spring. Hot spring containing significant lithium amounts. You literally melt in there. Zero stress left.


so that's why they're so relaxing. Its not the heat then lol


----------



## zonderkop (Feb 27, 2015)

To get back to organics, just wanted to share the best summary of soil life I've found so far:

Soil contains a diversity of life forms which can interact with plants, such life forms including bacteria, fungi and nematodes. These biological forms are particularly abundant in the rhizosphere, the area of soil that surrounds and is influenced by the plant roots. Rhizobacteria are those bacteria which are adapted to the rhizosphere. There is a complex interaction among the various life forms in the soil, where some are antagonistic and others are mutually beneficial. Similarly complex is the interaction between the plants and the soil life forms, which can helpful to the plant in some instances, and harmful in others.​From US Patent No. 7,595,061


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 28, 2015)

@st0wandgrow i heard something thru the grapevine...you still around here?


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 28, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> @st0wandgrow i heard something thru the grapevine...you still around here?


I miss stow mon not snow mon


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 28, 2015)

Fucking snow...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 28, 2015)

Anyone else letting their veggies get a head start this year? So far my green bells seem to absolutely love my organic super soil mix. Everyone seems surprised that they're so big already for only ~25 days old. These are the smallest ones that I transplanted this morning.
   
They also share a flower tent under 450 watts of hps with my columbian gold gal so they're only getting 12 on / 12 off currently. I can't wait to germ my pablanos when I get off work!


----------



## DonTesla (Feb 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone else letting their veggies get a head start this year? So far my green bells seem to absolutely love my organic super soil mix. Everyone seems surprised that they're so big already for only ~25 days old. These are the smallest ones that I transplanted this morning. They also share a flower tent under 450 watts of hps with my columbian gold gal so they're only getting 12 on / 12 off currently. I can't wait to germ my pablanos when I get off work!


Bells, Props!!!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 28, 2015)

Thank you! I'm hoping to eventually get a nursery job so I can do this every day


DonTesla said:


> Bells, Props!!!


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone else letting their veggies get a head start this year? So far my green bells seem to absolutely love my organic super soil mix. Everyone seems surprised that they're so big already for only ~25 days old. These are the smallest ones that I transplanted this morning.
> View attachment 3361334 View attachment 3361335 View attachment 3361337
> They also share a flower tent under 450 watts of hps with my columbian gold gal so they're only getting 12 on / 12 off currently. I can't wait to germ my pablanos when I get off work!


As soon as i get my seed order and the heatsink to build my light i will be starting some veggies. Was thinking of trying a coir/perlite medium for starting the seeds.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 28, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> As soon as i get my seed order and the heatsink to build my light i will be starting some veggies. Was thinking of trying a coir/perlite medium for starting the seeds.


I like to take my super soil mix and mix it down with Coco coir by about half for all of my seedlings, more for light feeders. That way there's enough nutrients and soil life that the plants get a solid start but won't burn their feet.


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 28, 2015)

Fuck... I just got my Bonza seeds order in the mail. No letter. No seeds. Just green tape and a phone case......


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Fuck... I just got my Bonza seeds order in the mail. No letter. No seeds. Just green tape and a phone case......


Ouch.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Feb 28, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Ouch.


Yeahhh, I'm not happy at all. I already yelled at one of their "reps" so hopefully this gets resolved. I think I may just end up with a Seedbank I know I won't ever use again. They took twice as long as Herbies too.


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## hyroot (Feb 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Fuck... I just got my Bonza seeds order in the mail. No letter. No seeds. Just green tape and a phone case......


customs got your seeds. Try a U.S Based seed bank. All the out of country ones never get through anymore. Demand a refund. Go to green remedies or something


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## zonderkop (Feb 28, 2015)

From: http://www.collective-evolution.com/2015/02/28/new-us-patents-could-signal-the-end-of-pesticides-gmos/

The biopesticides described in the patent reveals a near permanent, safe solution for over 200,000 species of insects, and it all comes from a mushroom. After what is called “sporulation” of a select entomopathogenic fungi (fungi that kill insects), the area becomes unsuitable for whatever insect(s) the fungi are coded for. Additionally, extracts of the entomopathogenic fungi can steer insects in different directions.​


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## Midwest Weedist (Feb 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> customs got your seeds. Try a U.S Based seed bank. All the out of country ones never get through anymore. Demand a refund. Go to green remedies or something


Damn, that really sucks =/
Thanks for the advice


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## hyroot (Feb 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Damn, that really sucks =/
> Thanks for the advice


this is a good one. I'm friends with the norstar guys. They told me its legit. Here's the link to natures green remedies.

http://www.naturesgreenremedies.com/seed-companies/


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## cannakis (Feb 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> this is a good one. I'm friends with the norstar guys. They told me its legit. Here's the link to natures green remedies.
> 
> http://www.naturesgreenremedies.com/seed-companies/


Damn are you really?!? Where are they located? i Was wondering if shit was cracking down... Thank GOD For Natures Green Remedies he has that shit down! i Pray he stays Strong and Open! But i remember getting beans from Attitude years ago (haha my obsession with DNA...) and i Loved getting a TShirt every time, but then i went back after a year or so and they got Rid of the tshirts and i could only buy this $40 Bag to Guarantee shipping and supposedly they take it Out of the Packages and Put the seeds in all the corners of the bag's pouches. 

That is Good To Know! our Fucking Government. FUCK THE STATE! Thanks for the heads up hyroot, i was going to order some seeds from Logic on thcbay on thcfarmer.com but i didn't Thank GOD because they were going to come from Spain and i just had a Feeling they would not make it... NGR All the Way Baby! 

Sorry to hear about all of you who lost your seeds. You know what is bull shit though is that Cannabis Seed & Fiber is Completely Legal to Import and to Possess, it is Illegal to Germinate it, but of course they will stop by at Nothing to rid Cannabis from this World.!.!.!.

70%+ of the Cannabis Eradicated throughout These GOD Blessed united States of America was COMMON HEMP! It could Not get you high! It was INDIGENOUS to the region! But nope not any more!


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## hyroot (Feb 28, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Damn are you really?!? Where are they located? i Was wondering if shit was cracking down... Thank GOD For Natures Green Remedies he has that shit down! i Pray he stays Strong and Open! But i remember getting beans from Attitude years ago (haha my obsession with DNA...) and i Loved getting a TShirt every time, but then i went back after a year or so and they got Rid of the tshirts and i could only buy this $40 Bag to Guarantee shipping and supposedly they take it Out of the Packages and Put the seeds in all the corners of the bag's pouches.
> 
> That is Good To Know! our Fucking Government. FUCK THE STATE! Thanks for the heads up hyroot, i was going to order some seeds from Logic on thcbay on thcfarmer.com but i didn't Thank GOD because they were going to come from Spain and i just had a Feeling they would not make it... NGR All the Way Baby!
> 
> ...


yes I am. Ngr is out of Colorado.


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## cannakis (Feb 28, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Awesome dawg ..
> 
> Fluoride is one of the key breakers no doubt,
> its no good for organics, and its no good for us..
> ...


Hahaha so can you do all that?!? JESUS CHRIST Said "If you BELIEVE you can say to that Mountain, Cast yourself into the sea, and It Will do so.!." But you Must Believe! That's why the Matrix is such a Well Written Movie! Good WORD in that! 

But definitely start that thread! Haha the rabbit hole goes Forever That's how AMAZING AND PERFECT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS! FOREVER LOVING AND LEARNING!


DonPetro said:


> @st0wandgrow i heard something thru the grapevine...you still around here?


wait what did you hear!?!?!


zonderkop said:


> yeah, they be better off adding lithium instead: higher lithium levels in the public drinking water are associated with lower suicide rates.


is that even true!?!?! Isn't Prosac lithium? And Prosac makes you Hostile and Murderous! If you give to even fucking Fish they will eat each other, and not beta fish!


Pattahabi said:


> I could be mistaken, but I believe the fluoride they add to our water is not naturally occurring. I think this is actually an industrial byproduct. Definitely not good for us. I totally agree with DonT on this one.
> 
> P-


Yes it is! This is what i was Trying to get to... But it comes from the Aluminum and Phosphorous (all you chem growers out there...) Industries. Aluminum produces Sodium Fluoride and Phosphorous Production produces HydroSilica Fluoride, both are Extremely & Highly Toxic! They Literally can Eat through Metal.! And they Pour THAT Into our Water Supply! If you go to the water treatment facility you will find 50 Gallon Barrels Full of Hydrosilica Fluoride.


Midwest Weedist said:


> Terrance had a lot figured out, brilliant man.
> Anyone know how to remove fluoride from water? I already scraped it from my tooth paste a while ago, but America loves their fluoridated water =/ One of few countries left that do it. Although, it is naturally occurring and required by our bodies in small amounts.


i didn't know this, but does Not surprise me. The debate is Not that Fluoride doesnt have its benefits yet rather that it should Administered accordingly to Each Human being Not in a one fits all throw it in the Water deal. Too much Fluoride Causes Fluorosis, and also Lowers Tensile Strength in Teeth and Bones while it does make them Brighter and more Dense it does NOT Mean that it is Making them Healthier or Stronger.

Oh has anyone heard of Chem Trails?!?! hahaha! Seriously though they exist too... Mount Shasta was one of the Purest Springs in the World, and yet Now has a rate of 60,000ppm of Aluminum and Barium which the EPA says Only 60ppm of each are Call for Alarm (or maybe it's more than that, maybe its like 1,000ppm... but i want to say it's 60ppm) anyways... i Actually saw a Plane Landing the other day a few weeks or month ago and i LITERALLY Saw the Sprayers and the Chems being sprayed it was NOT Com Trails! It was fucking Landing! And it is Not some sort of Landing device... 

Also, San Diego was one of the Last Cities to enact Fluoridation in their water which they fought for decades until finally the State came down and threaten Legal and Financial Action against the city if it did Not Fluoridate.

Good times Guys.! KEEP GROWING! And being Good Stewards of the GOD Blessed Land!


----------



## cannakis (Feb 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> yes I am. Ngr is out of Colorado.


no i was talking about NorStar... i thought you said you were friends with NorStar? And NGR is out of Michigan.


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## hyroot (Feb 28, 2015)

cannakis said:


> no i was talking about NorStar... i thought you said you were friends with NorStar? And NGR is out of Michigan.


they're out of humby. I'm in SoCal. When ever they're in town I sometimes hang out with them. Or if I'm up there. They hooked me up with all kinds of goodies for my birthday a few weeks ago too. I'm more friends with Scotty than I am with Joel.

I thought ngr was Michigan too but their phone number has a Colorado area code. Colorado springs


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## cannakis (Feb 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> they're out of humby. I'm in SoCal. When ever they're in town I sometimes hang out with them. Or if I'm up there. They hooked me up with all kinds of goodies for my birthday a few weeks ago too. I'm more friends with Scotty than I am with Joel.
> 
> I thought ngr was Michigan too but their phone number has a Colorado area code. Colorado springs


oh really i didn't know that was colorado, i guess he lived there and just moved...

that's cool though, i hear they have some Good genetics! That's pretty cool though hanging with them. Do you have any public business or are you just all personal? 


Oh and another thing to add to what i was saying about Fluoride...

It is Literally Bio-Hazardous Waste from those two industries, which They should be required to dispose of Properly, yet Instead they Sell it to us and it is Put in Every Single thing, from our Water Supply to Toiletries to Food & Drink.! They doN't pay fucking Taxes most of them, they are Hardly Ever if At All Regulated or Inspected (not that i necessarily agree with Regulation AT ALL!), remember the Texas Chemical Plant that exploded 2-3 Years ago actually right about this time, they had Not been Inspected since like 1980 Something!!! 

Even if it was 1989, That was Over Fucking 20 Years that this Hazardous Chemical Production Company was Ever "inspected". YET if i fucking want to Sell and Produce GOOD WHOLESOME GOD BLESSED FOOD i Have to Be Inspected FOUR FUCKING TIMES A YEAR! (Inspected by the Fire Chief, Alcohol Law Enforcement, Health Department, and GOD Knows what other Arbitrary Agency has been created, and Mind You EACH Of These "officers of the law" are Searching and even Seizing Your Papers & Effects on Your Property! I would tell those Weasels to get The Fuck Out.! -- we had an ALE piece of shit come in work the other day, searched all the coolers to make sure we "wereN't" drinking "on the clock" get the Fuck out of here, our Own Leglislators, Justices, & Officers are Half All Piss drunk All the time to begin with, WHILE THEY ARE GOVERNING!!! And yet i can't drink while i make them food, Fuck You! That disgraceful treasonous Justice Ginsberg was PASSED OUT During the State of The Union! Our Fore Fathers Literally Impeached Chief Justices for being Drunk in their PRIVATE LIFE!) 

But back to to being to Inspected to own a Business... i Have to Buy this and That, and Buy this License and Permit, and buy This Specific Product, and follow All these Guide Lines, for merely Trying to Provide Good Whole, Quality Food! Yet that Texas Chemical Plant Murdered over 200 People! Twisted logic and reasoning to me, these kind of Tyrannical Vexing Codes are Treasonous and should be Prosecuted as So.!. Hmm. Let us turn to JESUS CHRIST First and Foremost, and Ask our CREATOR To guide our Mind and Hand.


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## hyroot (Feb 28, 2015)

@cannakis its just personal. I've never done business with them. They're are really cool people. They gave me a bunch of seeds that are not even out yet. 2 of the packs are soon to be testers. Then they gave me some personal stash of seeds too. A bunch of their ice wax too. They work with old school strains from the 80's. They really work them too. Not pollen chuck chuckers. I've been trying to get a cut of their kona sunset. I've hinted at it. I haven't really asked. I don't want to be pushy. They are already pretty generous as it is.


----------



## OutofLEDCloset (Feb 28, 2015)

Can i use popcorn kernels for a SST? Saw a vid and it looked like dude had popcorn kernels soaking.


----------



## cannakis (Feb 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> @cannakis its just personal. I've never done business with them. They're are really cool people. They gave me a bunch of seeds that are not even out yet. 2 of the packs are soon to be testers. Then they gave me some personal stash of seeds too. A bunch of their ice wax too. They work with old school strains from the 80's. They really work them too. Not pollen chuck chuckers. I've been trying to get a cut of their kona sunset. I've hinted at it. I haven't really asked. I don't want to be pushy. They are already pretty generous as it is.


Nice i like that that's awesome! Man yeah i would Love to get my hands on those old genes... man and they Literally have their Own Personal Stash of Seeds!?!?!?! That is pretty awesome! i Hope i get there someday soon.!. I chucked some chucking pollen and chucked up all the girls that were in there... it's like some were half way through flower and are finishing without maturing the seeds and the others are just finishing up early dying on me whatever it may be.! i have lot to learn Before i start breeding for real i have realized.


----------



## ekim046 (Feb 28, 2015)

Here is an update of our Scotts OG + 2 new clones, complete with home built soil!






lmk what you guys think!


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## zonderkop (Mar 1, 2015)

cannakis said:


> is that even true!?!?! Isn't Prosac lithium? And Prosac makes you Hostile and Murderous! If you give to even fucking Fish they will eat each other, and not beta fish!


very much true: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23312137 &
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/14/opinion/sunday/should-we-all-take-a-bit-of-lithium.html


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## Pattahabi (Mar 1, 2015)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Can i use popcorn kernels for a SST? Saw a vid and it looked like dude had popcorn kernels soaking.


Yessir, popcorn works just fine! High in cytokinins! It does take a little longer to sprout than some, and it likes just a little warmer temps sprouting.

P-


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 1, 2015)

hyroot said:


> this is a good one. I'm friends with the norstar guys. They told me its legit. Here's the link to natures green remedies.
> 
> http://www.naturesgreenremedies.com/seed-companies/


Thank you! I was worried about finding a Seedbank. Surprisingly my herbies order got through, pretty decent stealth shipping, it was labeled "Art Supplies" lol.


----------



## earthling420 (Mar 1, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Awesome dawg ..
> 
> Fluoride is one of the key breakers no doubt,
> its no good for organics, and its no good for us..
> ...


Real shit dawg. It's sad.
Bro, I just watched Lucy and it was the dopest fuckin movie man. I wanna watch it again. I was relating everything you said
watching it. Fucking gooood shit! Next plan is to shroom and watch it!
Damn, I didn't know that about the jails and stuff. Fucked up, makes sense though.
Ive read some on ayahusca too, that's some real medicine mon.
Thanks for the reading links dude, ill check em out.
Oh ya man, I buy it. Im very open to lots of ideas. Read about ppl experiencing em too.
Earthling? IDONBELIEVEITMON lol
Lmao I can dig it.
Thanks man! Ill try to find the nearest wormhole while navigating the Bermuda Triangle! haha (true story btw, if you know.. you know)


----------



## earthling420 (Mar 1, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I could be mistaken, but I believe the fluoride they add to our water is not naturally occurring. I think this is actually an industrial byproduct. Definitely not good for us. I totally agree with DonT on this one.
> 
> P-


I believe the natural source is called flourine? Correct me if im wrong.


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Mar 1, 2015)

First they take away my awesome cigs............next it's the crappy chinese toothpaste; lol

I've been using toms of maine for some time now, guess I'll try the fluoride free one.......just not gonna tell my dentist

fucking vaping blueberry e-juice, feel like a toddler


----------



## earthling420 (Mar 1, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Thank you! I was worried about finding a Seedbank. Surprisingly my herbies order got through, pretty decent stealth shipping, it was labeled "Art Supplies" lol.


I can confirm that ngr is reliable..


----------



## earthling420 (Mar 1, 2015)

I was thinking. Would it be a good thing to water plants with honey diluted in water? Or Plant derived minerals diluted in water?


----------



## Mohican (Mar 1, 2015)

Try it and see what happens!


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## earthling420 (Mar 1, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Try it and see what happens!


I would love to but don't have any cannabis to try it on lol yet... I got a seed soaking im gonna germ soon. I don't see the harm in either one especially the minerals. I was more curious bout how much good it does for the oplant


----------



## Mohican (Mar 1, 2015)

Sweet things are good for microbes in the soil along with minerals.

Enzymes and and hormones found in Aloe and Coconut water are excellent for seedlings. Salicylic acid (main ingredient in aspirin) is phenomenal at promoting root growth and health.

From all of the research I have done, seeds like pH 7 water and nothing else except a trace of Gibberellic acid. GA can be found in beer.


----------



## hyroot (Mar 1, 2015)

if I already have TM-7, would full power be pointless? The TM-7 has both humic and fulvic acids.


----------



## DonTesla (Mar 1, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Hahaha so can you do all that?!? ...
> !


Hahaha...
No, not all, and not on demand per se.. Some skills and gifts come early in life others later.. Some require practice and prep work, others are natural..

The blood scanning is a shamanic art.. They first believe plant spirits are teacher guides then they use plants to get into the proper form (blood consciousness)

All people can or have the potential to do most of this though,
Surprisingly. I know a couple the one astral travels daily the other lucid dreams and flies, creates cities etc. But to have a habit you need all 3: desire, knowledge and skill..

There are, of course, commonalities to all the skills though, like health, the awareness to begin with, and mind state to unlock it; that is theta waves or ability to enter theta state..

Some of these are basic skills some are advanced and others require a team.. Ex: Many Chinese hospitals reverse tumours within minutes with teams of nurses and a doctor chanting an incantation and creating a theta wave based belief aura and its remarkable you can see tumours shrink on screens before your eyes, in 3 minutes.

I've dreamed of a face vividly I never saw ever, for certain, then I saw it the next day.. Couldn't believe when I met them what I was seeing...

I've had a symbol clearly burnt into paper when an apiphany smoked me.. It was extremely relevant to the situation, perfectly in line with it

I've had clairaudience clearly and loudly warn me of exactly when piggs were coming, not just that day.. Down to within 4 minutes accuracy in a 24 hr or 1440 minute day.. that's off by less than 3 thousandths of a single percent...

I've decoded symbolic dreams, learned couple ways how to take off, fly, go lucid, and just starting to learn more skills in that realm..

I've survived something unscathed that should have killed me or left me in a wheelchair for life, broken neck and back..

Sometimes, I can read minds over the phone or in person as long as the person thinks of what I need to know I can extract it.. If I drop my pressures, relax, and feel it out. Some ppl are easy some are hard, I was *right*<edit> 25 times Ina row with this one girl..

Seeing the past is easy, the question is can you touch it, feel it, smell it, do it on demand, while dreaming as well as awake, without mj/etc.. Breath work is a key to imagery and pineal activation.. Borneal.. Mushrooms.. Many tricks and sides to this rubix..

Perhaps, Take one hour, split it into 3 chuncks..
then:
Look into cymatics, sound and frequency causing mushroom spores to create wild visual patterns that seem to come to life, create colonies of organized action, like a city coming to life with just sound..

Then check Sahdguru's talk on water memory..

And Michael Talbots talk on the holographic nature of the universe..

Then ask yourself, what else is invisible to us, what else is possible?

And again, dr strausmanns work on DMT is wild, free ebook. No brainer.. Read a few pages!!

That said,
Ignorance isn't bliss; <temporarily> shedding your physical body and capsule shell, having a near death, becoming your light energy body, entering the unity dimension, _that_ is bliss..
Salvia was used by the royal elite to prepare for the afterlife (aka dream realm or fourth dimension) yet for the ignorant imprisoned poor slaves, it was used as extreme torture, death and fear torture..


cannakis said:


> But definitely start that thread! Haha the rabbit hole goes Forever That's how AMAZING AND PERFECT THE HOLY SPIRIT !


Haha, indeed, The Rabbit Hole does, and it hath been uncovered ...
See you over there..
rollitup.org/t/exploring-the-cosmos-without-a-rocket.862477/


----------



## Pattahabi (Mar 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Sweet things are good for microbes in the soil along with minerals.
> 
> Enzymes and and hormones found in Aloe and Coconut water are excellent for seedlings. Salicylic acid (main ingredient in aspirin) is phenomenal at promoting root growth and health.
> 
> From all of the research I have done, seeds like pH 7 water and nothing else except a trace of Gibberellic acid. GA can be found in beer.


Aloe is really great for cuttings and seedlings - Salicylic Acid, IAA, etc.

_The ten main areas of chemical constituents of Aloe vera include: Amino Acids, Anthraquinones, Enzymes, Minerals, Vitamins, Lignins, Monosaccharide, Polysaccharides, Salicylic Acid, Saponins, And Sterols.

Amino acids found in Aloe vera include: Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Valine,And Tryptophan. Some Of The Other Non-Essential Amino Acids Found In Aloe Vera Include Alanine, Arginine, Asparagine, Cysteine, Glutamic Acid, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine, Glutamine, And Aspartic Acid.

Enzymes include Amylase, Bradykinase, Catalase, Cellulas, Lipase, Oxidase, Alkaline Phosphatase, Proteolytias, Creatine Phosphokinase and Carboxypeptidase.

Aloe vera also contains Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, and B12 along with Choline, Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, Manganese, Chromium, Selenium. Additional elements found in Aloe vera include Copper, Iron, Potassium, Phosphorus, And Sodium._

I also have a belief that seeds are awaiting specific enzymes, pgh's, pgr's, humic acids, etc from the soil, or good vermicompost. If a seed needs water (rain) to wash off the anti rooting hormones encoded on the outer seed, it only makes sense it needs/expects/awaits other factors from nature.

Peace!

P-


----------



## DonTesla (Mar 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Aloe is really great for cuttings and seedlings - Salicylic Acid, IAA, etc.
> 
> _The ten main areas of chemical constituents of Aloe vera include: Amino Acids, Anthraquinones, Enzymes, Minerals, Vitamins, Lignins, Monosaccharide, Polysaccharides, Salicylic Acid, Saponins, And Sterols.
> 
> ...


Excellent post on aloe and man am I glad I just got a sweet plant of it.. Talk about a comprehensive punch!


----------



## cannakis (Mar 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Aloe is really great for cuttings and seedlings - Salicylic Acid, IAA, etc.
> 
> _The ten main areas of chemical constituents of Aloe vera include: Amino Acids, Anthraquinones, Enzymes, Minerals, Vitamins, Lignins, Monosaccharide, Polysaccharides, Salicylic Acid, Saponins, And Sterols.
> 
> ...


Man Pat you do know your shit.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Aloe is really great for cuttings and seedlings - Salicylic Acid, IAA, etc.
> 
> _The ten main areas of chemical constituents of Aloe vera include: Amino Acids, Anthraquinones, Enzymes, Minerals, Vitamins, Lignins, Monosaccharide, Polysaccharides, Salicylic Acid, Saponins, And Sterols.
> 
> ...


I need to buy more aloe plants...


----------



## a senile fungus (Mar 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I need to buy more aloe plants...


I need more houseplants in general...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 2, 2015)

I think if I drag any more plants in the apartment my girl might get a bit upset lol. I hear "your damn plants" at least once a week. 


a senile fungus said:


> I need more houseplants in general...


----------



## a senile fungus (Mar 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think if I drag any more plants in the apartment my girl might get a bit upset lol. I hear "your damn plants" at least once a week.



No girl over here to say anything to me, and it'll liven up the place a bit I think  

The place I'm moving to is a huge open room so I was thinking maybe a banana tree or something very tall...

Suggestions anyone? Or suggestions for houseplants in general? I was thinking to have bunched of hanging plants and also large planters around the place.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 2, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> No girl over here to say anything to me, and it'll liven up the place a bit I think
> 
> The place I'm moving to is a huge open room so I was thinking maybe a banana tree or something very tall...
> 
> Suggestions anyone? Or suggestions for houseplants in general? I was thinking to have bunched of hanging plants and also large planters around the place.


Get some Meyer dwarf lemons!!! They grow into like a ~2 - 3 foot tall Bush. 
Depending on your ambient temps, average rh, and light you could have some really interesting house plants. I really like this plant my great grandmother gave me when she passed. I need a bigger planter because the main root is actually bent inside it's current one. It really needs some tlc. 
 
It's almost 4 and a half feet tall from the top of the soil!


----------



## a senile fungus (Mar 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Get some Meyer dwarf lemons!!! They grow into like a ~2 - 3 foot tall Bush.
> Depending on your ambient temps, average rh, and light you could have some really interesting house plants. I really like this plant my great grandmother gave me when she passed. I need a bigger planter because the main root is actually bent inside it's current one. It really needs some tlc.
> View attachment 3363114
> It's almost 4 and a half feet tall from the top of the soil!



I'm not gonna know temps and such till I move in. The place is gutted out now, gives me the opportunity to insulate it well I guess...


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think if I drag any more plants in the apartment my girl might get a bit upset lol. I hear "your damn plants" at least once a week.


tell her more plants==== cleaner air.................who doesn't want that?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 2, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> tell her more plants==== cleaner air.................who doesn't want that?


Surprisingly that's one of the reasons she's (mostly) cool with them. She's a pretty smart chick so I just throw some positive facts at her and I can get her to come around to most stuff! She did say no to another flower tent though =/
Oh whale. You can't win them all.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> She did say no to another flower tent though =/
> *Oh whale*. You can't win them all.


I hope that wasn't your response to her saying no to the new tent!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 2, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I hope that wasn't your response to her saying no to the new tent!


Hahahahahaha no way!! I'm smarter than that


----------



## DonPetro (Mar 2, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I hope that wasn't your response to her saying no to the new tent!


St0w...good to see you still around brother!


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## ebcrew (Mar 2, 2015)

Just checking the thread out for the first time. 

I have a question, what does the aloe do for the plant?


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## zonderkop (Mar 2, 2015)

Aloe vera contains a bio-stimulate that triggers the plant’s defense mechanisms against a number of pathogens. Aloe vera, with a few other things, makes a great cloning gel. natural wetting agent; i'm sure more.


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## Mohican (Mar 2, 2015)

Go back one page - @Pattahabi listed all of the benefits!


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## Pattahabi (Mar 2, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> Aloe vera contains a bio-stimulate that triggers the plant’s defense mechanisms against a number of pathogens. Aloe vera, with a few other things, makes a great cloning gel. natural wetting agent; i'm sure more.


Salicylic acid stimulates a plant's SAR. The Indole-3-Acetic Acid is the rooting hormone component. First found in Willow bark, it is also the active ingredient in aspirin. Aloe is also high in saponins (I believe it has all four?).

Three cheers for Aloe! 



P-


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## earthling420 (Mar 2, 2015)

Has anyone used gro kashi? I just got some and mixed it in my dirt that my seed is in now. Just wondering what your results were.


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## ebcrew (Mar 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Salicylic acid stimulates a plant's SAR. The Indole-3-Acetic Acid is the rooting hormone component. First found in Willow bark, it is also the active ingredient in aspirin. Aloe is also high in saponins (I believe it has all four?).
> 
> Three cheers for Aloe!
> 
> ...


So how do you add it to the plant? Is there a powder form you can disolve into water?


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## Mohican (Mar 2, 2015)

I just mixed in some Kashi in the Jurple soil:



Leaves curled a little the first day. Now she looks great


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## OutofLEDCloset (Mar 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Salicylic acid stimulates a plant's SAR. The Indole-3-Acetic Acid is the rooting hormone component. First found in Willow bark, it is also the active ingredient in aspirin. Aloe is also high in saponins (I believe it has all four?).
> 
> Three cheers for Aloe!
> 
> ...


Hip Hip Hooray!!!!


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## Pattahabi (Mar 2, 2015)

ebcrew said:


> So how do you add it to the plant? Is there a powder form you can disolve into water?


There is a 200x organic powder (ingredientstodiefor), or you can just blend up a leaf of the fresh. Approx 1oz fresh leaf goo, or 1/4tsp of 200x can either be drenched, or foliared. I especially like the foliar.

P-


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## OutofLEDCloset (Mar 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Aloe is really great for cuttings and seedlings - Salicylic Acid, IAA, etc.
> 
> _The ten main areas of chemical constituents of Aloe vera include: Amino Acids, Anthraquinones, Enzymes, Minerals, Vitamins, Lignins, Monosaccharide, Polysaccharides, Salicylic Acid, Saponins, And Sterols.
> 
> ...


Sounds like Viagra for plants. Going to take some for myself.


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## Pattahabi (Mar 2, 2015)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Sounds like Viagra for plants. Going to take some for myself.


You will not like the skin of the plant. 200x powder is far more palatable. I use it in a lot of stuff. I've come to the conclusion if it's good for the plants, chances are it's good for me.

Peace!

P-


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## OutofLEDCloset (Mar 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> You will not like the skin of the plant. 200x powder is far more palatable. I use it in a lot of stuff. I've come to the conclusion if it's good for the plants, chances are it's good for me.
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


Need me a BAS box. Thinking of going with the 40 dollar box. Tossing all bottles except for the protek and maye ful-power.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 3, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> You will not like the skin of the plant. 200x powder is far more palatable. I use it in a lot of stuff. I've come to the conclusion if it's good for the plants, chances are it's good for me.
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


I use the 200x powder from ingredients to die for.

My old lady must be reading your posts. She uses it in some type of hair conditioner concoction and in a face cream she makes.

Pissing me off cuz she's used 3/4's of it on her friggin beauty products already. I recently hid it and told her we were all out.


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## Pattahabi (Mar 3, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I use the 200x powder from ingredients to die for.
> 
> My old lady must be reading your posts. She uses it in some type of hair conditioner concoction and in a face cream she makes.
> 
> Pissing me off cuz she's used 3/4's of it on her friggin beauty products already. I recently hid it and told her we were all out.


Lmao! Yep, my girl does the same thing. I noticed that one of her acne gel things was primarily salicylic acid, so I mixed some aloe up one time for her to try... mistake. It goes on her face, in smoothies, even cooking sometimes! Thank god she doesn't read this forum, or she would be putting it in her hair next!  I love the stuff, but I hear ya on it being a little pricy. Ingredientstodiefor is by far the cheapest organic 200x I have found. I tried putting some fresh into a smoothie once, I'm not that tough! Whew stuff was Nasty!

Peace!

P-


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## testiclees (Mar 4, 2015)

grnhrvstr said:


> Ive been doing this for a few weeks now,not just with mary but my whole damn garden with excellent results!My aloe leaves give me about a tablespoon each cuz they not so big yet but just make sure to be careful filleting them.I use a butter knife cuz the skin is so tender but make sure not to get any skin mixed in cuz even after blending at high speeds those little green pieces will clog your shit and piss you off


prett sure the fillets are 99.9% water. most of the beneficials are in the skin or lie against it.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 4, 2015)

testiclees said:


> prett sure the fillets are 99.9% water. most of the beneficials are in the skin or lie against it.


I'm of the same thought. Which is why I cut a fillet off and throw the whole thing in a nutribullet or whatever they're called until it looks completely liquefied. Speaking of, I need to give my yunnan seedling some when I get home.


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## testiclees (Mar 4, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm of the same thought. Which is why I cut a fillet off and throw the whole thing in a nutribullet or whatever they're called until it looks completely liquefied. Speaking of, I need to give my yunnan seedling some when I get home.



Yes. I do same. Immersion blender and R/O water. I do not agree with the practice of continual aloe aplication. My observation is that 1x every 10-14 days is most effective.

I find that aloe, fulpower, dextrose is a good foliar tonic at that interval.


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## Pattahabi (Mar 4, 2015)

testiclees said:


> Yes. I do same. Immersion blender and R/O water. I do not agree with the practice of continual aloe aplication. My observation is that 1x every 10-14 days is most effective.
> 
> I find that aloe, fulpower, dextrose is a good foliar tonic at that interval.


May I ask your reasoning behind not using aloe more often?

P-


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## SupraSPL (Mar 5, 2015)

organic 200x aloe powder, reasonable price for a small size and the site gets 20% promos sometimes. Cheap organic coconut oil too if you are into that. Free shipping no tax.

http://www.swansonvitamins.com/swanson-organic-organic-freeze-dried-aloe-vera-powder-50-grams-1-76-oz-pwdr?SourceCode=INTL405&CAWELAID=417113317&catargetid=530002460000095110&cadevice=c&mkwid=Iy2cPqB5&pcrid=67697603287&gclid=CjwKEAiAmuCnBRCLj4D7nMWqp1USJABcT4dfCATCO9C7uRdv8aF_HVZ3uYiG29d-Vgdn4YsEaVSCIBoChvTw_wcB

I agree the skins are not very palatable and the texture of the aloe gel is...not too great LOL But if its good for me I eat it.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 5, 2015)

Before

After


I probably go heavy on how much of a filet I use per ratio of water, but I have plenty of aloe to do so. I use about an 8th cup of filet per ~2 cups of water.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 5, 2015)

Mine's relaxing and watching the snow dump in philly.............day off(we panic here) and no wine in the house!!!


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 5, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Mine's relaxing and watching the snow dump in philly.............day off(we panic here) and no wine in the house!!!
> 
> View attachment 3365183


Whoa! Nice looking plant you got there!! Looks nice and plump


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 5, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Whoa! Nice looking plant you got there!! Looks nice and plump


plant based ferts will do that............... it is also in a south facing window to be fair


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## Sunny Organics (Mar 5, 2015)

amazing thread... thanks man!!


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## D619 (Mar 5, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> In general, LEDs produce little heat. I can't imagine it increasing your grow room's temps more than a few degrees, at most.


I can tell you first


Midwest Weedist said:


> I noticed the led talk, obviously this isn't the forum, but can someone help answer my question?
> I've run into a future problem with the heat from my 600 watt and only having a 15 amp circuit to run everything in my apartment aside from the kitchen on. We have no central air so when summer gets here, I'm mostly fucked to try and run a 5000btu airconditioner plus 600 watt hps, 100 watts in centrifugal fans, my gaming computer, TV, and all of my girlfriends hair appliances.
> 
> So, is the hype about the lack of heat with the upper models (I've been suggested to look at Apache and Area 51) true? If so I'm going to feel stupid for buying a 600 watt kit then turning around and buying an led, but if it keeps me from having to stop my hobby, so be it. I'll get a second job before I quit growing


I needed extra amps in my place, since I wash my dishes by hand only, I never had any use for my dishwasher. Looked at the main panel and a 15 amp breaker was dedicated solely to the dishwasher , so I was able to use that. Not sure how your apartment is wired but take a look.. If you haven't aleady. Never used LEDS, but I can tell you that a 315 lec lamp runs hotter than my air cooled 600 hps.


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## hyroot (Mar 5, 2015)

D619 said:


> I can tell you first
> 
> 
> I needed extra amps in my place, since I wash my dishes by hand only, I never had any use for my dishwasher. Looked at the main panel and a 15 amp breaker was dedicated solely to the dishwasher , so I was able to use that. Not sure how your apartment is wired but take a look.. If you haven't aleady. Never used LEDS, but I can tell you that a 315 lec lamp runs hotter than my air cooled 600 hps.



I've seen the lec 315 ( 325 watts) up first hand and it runs much cooler than a 400w hps. It's impossible for a 600 watt hps to run cooler given the efficiency since a 600 watt hps puts out about 400 watts of heat.


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## D619 (Mar 5, 2015)

well I did a side by side comparison. The temperatures measured higher under a 315 lec under a non air cooled hood vs an air cooled 600 hps. Of course the 600 watt bulb runs hotter if it wasn't being air cooled. That's all I'm saying.


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2015)

Aloe:





They are very old and have not gotten very big. I want a big one!

Cheers,
Mo


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## hyroot (Mar 5, 2015)

D619 said:


> well I did a side by side comparison. The temperatures measured higher under a 315 lec under a non air cooled hood vs an air cooled 600 hps. Of course the 600 watt bulb runs hotter if it wasn't being air cooled. That's all I'm saying.


you should probably get a speed controller for that fan. If it cools too much. Below operating temp. It can cut down on spectral output by 10%-20% and the glass already cuts off 15% spectral output.


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## earthling420 (Mar 5, 2015)

I was thinking about several things and wondering 
Can you put make a tea out of anything? Just one ingredient? with or without areation. 
Is it more efficient to use a tea instead of topdressing? 
Can you mix almost anything into a tea or best to keep it minimal?


----------



## earthling420 (Mar 5, 2015)

Is diluting a SST necessary?
Is it possible to store a SST?
Good news, I find baby worms in my dirt from BAS  Also found them in the dirt I made but unfortunately they'll die cause drying the dirt out from being too wet. I don't think I can save them. From what I understand if dirt goes anaerobic it's best to dry it out and rehydrate with tea.
My seed popped! Back in the game boys! lol

edit: forgot who mentioned it but I ordered some mycogrow soluble from fungiperfecti.com 
seems like good stuff. ill get it soon. Thanks to whoever brought it uo in another thread


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## a senile fungus (Mar 5, 2015)

Quickly source of calcium? I'm getting some spots on older leaves, looks like calcium def.

I have oyster shell meal, gypsum, and dolomite lime chunks but those all take too long to break up and become usable in the soil.

What about topdressing with kelp meal or alfalfa meal? 

Could I make a tea with the kelp or alfalfa?

Or should I just grind up a couple egg shells and bake, then dissolve in vinegar and dilute and water in??

I'm picking up more EWC next week but would like a quick fix if possible for now.

I do have calmag, but I'd like to fix the issue instead of just pouring in calmag.

I use straight RO water right now, so I guess it could be that.

Also, temps are low, from 60ish to 68ish. Not sure if low temps could be contributing to/antagonizing a nutrient's uptake.


----------



## hyroot (Mar 5, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> I was thinking about several things and wondering
> Can you put make a tea out of anything? Just one ingredient? with or without areation.
> Is it more efficient to use a tea instead of topdressing?
> Can you mix almost anything into a tea or best to keep it minimal?


it depends on the tea. A nutrient tea will have faster results than topdressing. But topdressing will last for the whole grow. Where if you only do teas. You'd have to do them almost every watering.

I did a compost tea vs topdressing vermicompost. Topdressing had much better results.

sst or coconut water in tea form is the only way to go.for that aspect.

you can brew just about any plant material except for citrus and potatoes. But the leaves from those plants may be ok. I.dont know if leaves on an orange tree have citric acid or not though. I doubt they do.


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## Mohican (Mar 5, 2015)

Vinegar and shells - diluted

Drinking water with minerals


Last resort - bottled Cal/Mag


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## a senile fungus (Mar 5, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Vinegar and shells - diluted
> 
> Drinking water with minerals
> 
> ...



Looks like I'm having hardboiled eggs for breakfast.

:cowboy hat:


----------



## Mohican (Mar 5, 2015)

Calcium supplements (for people) dissolved in water.


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## earthling420 (Mar 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> it depends on the tea. A nutrient tea will have faster results than topdressing. But topdressing will last for the whole grow. Where if you only do teas. You'd have to do them almost every watering.
> 
> I did a compost tea vs topdressing vermicompost. Topdressing had much better results.
> 
> ...


Awesome, thanks for the kickass reply Hy. Good stuff.


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## earthling420 (Mar 5, 2015)

So in seniles case, one couldn't make a tea with oyster shell flour? nothing else just that.


----------



## a senile fungus (Mar 5, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> So in seniles case, one couldn't make a tea with oyster shell flour? nothing else just that.


Don't think it'd be water soluble, as its just crushed oyster shells.

It needs time in the soil to be chelated and become available.

I guess if it was in your soil and you made microbe teas then you would be facilitating the chelation of the calcium by adding bennies, up to a certain point of course...


----------



## D619 (Mar 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> you should probably get a speed controller for that fan. If it cools too much. Below operating temp. It can cut down on spectral output by 10%-20% and the glass already cuts off 15% spectral output.


I'm pulling air through 2 600 watt hoods using a 6" vortex 452 cfm.. Around a 10% loss being cooled vs being non cooled and around 5% with glass as long as it's cleaned regulary which is monthly for me, but I believe that is made up because I'm able to get slightly closer, but I might be wrong.? I run both hps and lec because I noticed my buds were leafier just running lec alone so I added the hps to get a better spectrum of light. We will see .. Plus I had those on hand for the moment and it was my best option pertaining to the limitation in my particular situation. My new grow room set up will be completely different. Switching to Gavita using a mini split AC unit.

Thanks for the feedback.. If I'm losing that much spectral output not much I can do about it anyways... Cheers


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 5, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Quickly source of calcium? I'm getting some spots on older leaves, looks like calcium def.
> 
> I have oyster shell meal, gypsum, and dolomite lime chunks but those all take too long to break up and become usable in the soil.
> 
> ...


Senile, if you don't mind can you post up a quick rundown of your soil (recipe)?

If you followed any variation of the recipes in this thread you should have ample calcium. What it could be is *availability* of calcium as opposed to a shortage of it. Being a cation (positive charge) it could be bound up and become less available to the plant if you had say high levels of Phosphorous (anion~negative charge).... or in that case what you could be observing is actually a P deficiency because you likely have more Ca in your soil than P. Does that make sense?

I guess what Im saying is before you go adding anything else I would work backwards and make sure you know what the issue is first. It's very tempting to tinker. I still have to remind myself to butt out and trust that the soil food web will regulate things. With that in mind your forthcoming worm casting top-dress is what I turn to first.... always!


----------



## earthling420 (Mar 5, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Senile, if you don't mind can you post up a quick rundown of your soil (recipe)?
> 
> If you followed any variation of the recipes in this thread you should have ample calcium. What it could be is *availability* of calcium as opposed to a shortage of it. Being a cation (positive charge) it could be bound up and become less available to the plant if you had say high levels of Phosphorous (anion~negative charge).... or in that case what you could be observing is actually a P deficiency because you likely have more Ca in your soil than P. Does that make sense?
> 
> I guess what Im saying is before you go adding anything else I would work backwards and make sure you know what the issue is first. It's very tempting to tinker. I still have to remind myself to butt out and trust that the soil food web will regulate things. With that in mind your forthcoming worm casting top-dress is what I turn to first.... always!


If that is the case, what do you recommend I add to ffof dirt that seems to be acidic? im not using it on my cannabis don't worry


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 5, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> If that is the case, what do you recommend I add to ffof dirt that seems to be acidic? im not using it on my cannabis don't worry


To 2 bags of FFOF I'd add a 5 gallon bucket of EWC, a 5 gallon bucket of aeration bits, and a cup of oyster shell flour. You could add other meals if you wanted to depending on what you're using the soil for


----------



## a senile fungus (Mar 5, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Senile, if you don't mind can you post up a quick rundown of your soil (recipe)?
> 
> If you followed any variation of the recipes in this thread you should have ample calcium. What it could be is *availability* of calcium as opposed to a shortage of it. Being a cation (positive charge) it could be bound up and become less available to the plant if you had say high levels of Phosphorous (anion~negative charge).... or in that case what you could be observing is actually a P deficiency because you likely have more Ca in your soil than P. Does that make sense?
> 
> I guess what Im saying is before you go adding anything else I would work backwards and make sure you know what the issue is first. It's very tempting to tinker. I still have to remind myself to butt out and trust that the soil food web will regulate things. With that in mind your forthcoming worm casting top-dress is what I turn to first.... always!



Sure, I'll see if I can find it, might be lost in all my stuff though.

I'm not gonna lie, some of the ingredients I kinda willy nilly just threw in. I ended up not having enough of some things due to limitation in package sizes (ie do I order 5lbs or 50?) and some things I couldn't find at all (clays and neem meal)

Also, because my last grow also had issues with cal/mag throughout the whole grow, this run I've been experimenting with different things.

I have so many different plants in so many different mix's and ratios of mixes that its actually kind of mind boggling. 

I'm so lucky to have that awesome source of EWC or else my plants would probably all already be dead lolol.

I have half a mind to just make 25% with local Michigan soil, 25% horse manure compost, and 50% of that messed up mix and just put it in massive pots for the outdoor season.

That would give me a clean slate to start with. I could mix a new batch of living organic soil. I would emulate your organic style, with a low number of simple effective inputs. That sounds nice to me.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I've seen the lec 315 ( 325 watts) up first hand and it runs much cooler than a 400w hps. It's impossible for a 600 watt hps to run cooler given the efficiency since a 600 watt hps puts out about 400 watts of heat.


 Those 400 watts of heat are a bitch in small spaces


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> To 2 bags of FFOF I'd add a 5 gallon bucket of EWC, a 5 gallon bucket of aeration bits, and a cup of oyster shell flour. You could add other meals if you wanted to depending on what you're using the soil for


At least add some kelp meal, maybe some rock dusts. For the aeration bits he could use lava rock. It's like pumice but loaded with minerals, I started using it a couple months ago and it's fantastic.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Sure, I'll see if I can find it, might be lost in all my stuff though.
> 
> I'm not gonna lie, some of the ingredients I kinda willy nilly just threw in. I ended up not having enough of some things due to limitation in package sizes (ie do I order 5lbs or 50?) and some things I couldn't find at all (clays and neem meal)
> 
> ...


Buildasoil.com 
They solved my issues with how much of this or that to buy and they offer sooo much


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

D619 said:


> I can tell you first
> 
> 
> I needed extra amps in my place, since I wash my dishes by hand only, I never had any use for my dishwasher. Looked at the main panel and a 15 amp breaker was dedicated solely to the dishwasher , so I was able to use that. Not sure how your apartment is wired but take a look.. If you haven't aleady. Never used LEDS, but I can tell you that a 315 lec lamp runs hotter than my air cooled 600 hps.


I figured it out. My kitchen has a 15 and a 30 amp service hooked to it, with the fridge running alone on the 30. So I'm just going to extention cord my airconditioner to the kitchen. It'll look trashier than I'm comfortable with but I'm out of this apartment in less than 8 months so I'll deal.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 6, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> Sure, I'll see if I can find it, might be lost in all my stuff though.
> 
> I'm not gonna lie, some of the ingredients I kinda willy nilly just threw in. I ended up not having enough of some things due to limitation in package sizes (ie do I order 5lbs or 50?) and some things I couldn't find at all (clays and neem meal)
> 
> ...


Yeah, the ewc are where it's at. Coot talks a lot about supplementing your worm bin. Makes sense if you think about it. A worm bin is absolutely crawling with microbes. It's ground zero for mineralization. Anything you put in there is going to be processed quicker than anywhere else. It's like an incubator for meals and minerals.

Every time I feed my worms I add some rock dusts, and/or kelp meal, and/or oyster shell flour, etc. The stuff that I add to a freshly harvested bin will be largely bio available in 4 months time when I harvest that bin again. Then there will be other stuff that was added more recently that will be available to the plant further down the road.

This approach makes EWC a super tonic for anything that ails your plant (or soil) IMO.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yeah, the ewc are where it's at. Coot talks a lot about supplementing your worm bin. Makes sense if you think about it. A worm bin is absolutely crawling with microbes. It's ground zero for mineralization. Anything you put in there is going to be processed quicker than anywhere else. It's like an incubator for meals and minerals.
> 
> Every time I feed my worms I add some rock dusts, and/or kelp meal, and/or oyster shell flour, etc. The stuff that I add to a freshly harvested bin will be largely bio available in 4 months time when I harvest that bin again. Then there will be other stuff that was added more recently that will be available to the plant further down the road.
> 
> This approach makes EWC a super tonic for anything that ails your plant (or soil) IMO.


I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this. I probably spend more time feeding and caring for my worms than I do anything else, even my ladies. I'll toss some kelp meal, alfalfa meal, azomite, powdered egg shells (mortar and pestle...) and occasionally a little greensand every couple of feedings and they gobble it up in less than a day. 
Anyone ever throw in some extra coir to compensate for too much moisture?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 6, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm glad I'm not the only one who does this. I probably spend more time feeding and caring for my worms than I do anything else, even my ladies. I'll toss some kelp meal, alfalfa meal, azomite, powdered egg shells (mortar and pestle...) and occasionally a little greensand every couple of feedings and they gobble it up in less than a day.
> Anyone ever throw in some extra coir to compensate for too much moisture?


I add coir over top of my fruit/veggie slurry every time I feed. Just a handful


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I add coir over top of my fruit/veggie slurry every time I feed. Just a handful


I feel it helps keep mold spores from colonizing so easily


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Mar 6, 2015)

D619 said:


> I'm pulling air through 2 600 watt hoods using a 6" vortex 452 cfm.. Around a 10% loss being cooled vs being non cooled and around 5% with glass as long as it's cleaned regulary which is monthly for me, but I believe that is made up because I'm able to get slightly closer, but I might be wrong.? I run both hps and lec because I noticed my buds were leafier just running lec alone so I added the hps to get a better spectrum of light. We will see .. Plus I had those on hand for the moment and it was my best option pertaining to the limitation in my particular situation. My new grow room set up will be completely different. Switching to Gavita using a mini split AC unit.
> 
> Thanks for the feedback.. If I'm losing that much spectral output not much I can do about it anyways... Cheers


your both right in a way.............yes direct cooling MAY drop the voltage on the arc, resulting in a loss but not as high as stated. if pulling the air from your grow room=== it's mute, pulling outdoor arctic air over a 400c arc= COULD be an issue. 10% loss through quality/pure glass is guaranteed when clean====running it closer makes up for it generally.

have seen great things done with the lec 315, .................switching to DE seems to be a trend

good luck


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> your both right in a way.............yes direct cooling MAY drop the voltage on the arc, resulting in a loss but not as high as stated. if pulling the air from your grow room=== it's mute, pulling outdoor arctic air over a 400c arc= COULD be an issue. 10% loss through quality/pure glass is guaranteed when clean====running it closer makes up for it generally.
> 
> have seen great things done with the lec 315, .................switching to DE seems to be a trend
> 
> good luck


I only have very subjective experience when it comes to this as it's all by what I could feel/see but, I can backup the claim that cold artic air will mess with the bulb if vented through a cooltube setup. I recently upgraded to a 600 watt cooltube and have it stuffed into a 4x2x5 tent (yes, it's fucking bright and HOT). Before I figured out how to keep temps where I need them, I tried venting cold air from outdoors that was between 0°f and 32° directly across my light at 190cfm. When I switched fan setup around and starting pulling ambient temps of like 68/72 across my light and just pulling the cold air into my tent with a separate 25cfm fan I noticed a change in the visual output of the bulb. Which worries me a little that I could have damaged the bulb, but I digress. With the warmer air the bulb seems brighter in a way, maybe a bit whiter in color. It feels as if the ir heat is a couple degrees warmer too, but my knowledge of how that works is weak so I'm probably wrong in some way about that lol.


----------



## zonderkop (Mar 6, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> ...but my knowledge of how that works is weak so I'm probably wrong in some way about that lol.


armchair speculation is part of the fun!


----------



## 4ftRoots (Mar 6, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I feel it helps keep mold spores from colonizing so easily


Is it bad to have fungi covering the food in my worm bin? I usually burry or just slop it on the top of the bed. The worms eat it quickly but it is usually white when they get to it. I usually run ozone once a week since I try to harvest perpetually, but never thought of the mold in my bin being bad.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 6, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Is it bad to have fungi covering the food in my worm bin? I usually burry or just slop it on the top of the bed. The worms eat it quickly but it is usually white when they get to it. I usually run ozone once a week since I try to harvest perpetually, but never thought of the mold in my bin being bad.


Are you sure it's not mycelium?


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## zonderkop (Mar 6, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Is it bad to have fungi covering the food in my worm bin?


i don't think so. in fact, i think its a sign of good bin heath. 

when i messed up my worm bin by feeding it too much food, mold was growing much less robustly. to me this means a more acidic, bacterial-dominated bin. springtails also multiplied, and it just didn't look happy.


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 6, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Are you sure it's not mycelium?


I thought mycelium was just fungus lol


----------



## 4ftRoots (Mar 6, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> i don't think so. in fact, i think its a sign of good bin heath.
> 
> when i messed up my worm bin by feeding it too much food, mold was growing much less robustly. to me this means a more acidic, bacterial-dominated bin. springtails also multiplied, and it just didn't look happy.


I also notice that. In my new bin springtails are everywhere while the worms prepare to take over.


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## Mohican (Mar 6, 2015)

> armchair speculation is part of the fun!


It's the scientific method - develop a theory and then test it


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 6, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> i don't think so. in fact, i think its a sign of good bin heath.
> 
> when i messed up my worm bin by feeding it too much food, mold was growing much less robustly. to me this means a more acidic, bacterial-dominated bin. springtails also multiplied, and it just didn't look happy.


yeah its not a problem, gotta remember worms don't have teeth, they eat the slimy stuff that the bacteria/fungi/whatever is making, that's what the worms digest.
Sorta the same concept as the microbes in your soil
I always bury my food, and always freeze it prior to giving it to them, their favorites are melons, pears, apples, and salad mixes. The more slimy and rotten the better.
bury it with at least a good inch of vermicompost on top and you won't have flies or smells.
Well assuming you have a good amount of worms in there.


----------



## hyroot (Mar 7, 2015)




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## greenghost420 (Mar 7, 2015)

getting ready to do my 1st sst...


----------



## earthling420 (Mar 7, 2015)

greenghost420 said:


> getting ready to do my 1st sst...


 Just did my first yesterday lol pretty cool shit. easy as fuuudge too. prob THE easiest potent at home thing you can do lol


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 7, 2015)

testiclees said:


> prett sure the fillets are 99.9% water. most of the beneficials are in the skin or lie against it.


Proof ? Not sure if this is true? Not saying the leaf doesn't have what we need, but I always assumed the fillet is what we are looking for? Also makes sinse because a healthy aloe is a nice juicy thick aloe. The unhealthy ones are flat with no fillet.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 8, 2015)

I think I fudged up...
I was turning my soil this morning that I'm cooking in my 50 gallon rubber maid and when I was turning it I found a pocket of some nasty smelling soil, was pretty damp too. Swampy would be a good way to put it. I don't know how it happened but I turned it over really well, scraped the bottom, and left the lid off so the air exchange is super high. Anything else I can do? I'm afraid I ruined a couple hundred dollars of soil. Or at least destroyed my micro heard


----------



## foreverflyhi (Mar 8, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think I fudged up...
> I was turning my soil this morning that I'm cooking in my 50 gallon rubber maid and when I was turning it I found a pocket of some nasty smelling soil, was pretty damp too. Swampy would be a good way to out it. I don't know how it happened but I turned it over really well, scraped the bottom, and left the lid off so the air exchange is super high. Anything else I can do? I'm afraid I ruined a couple hundred dollars of soil. Or at least destroyed my micro heard


Na just let it breathe, lay it out flat on a tarp, give it a day or two. Water with a nice SST and or AACT tea. They will heal and rejuvenate. Avoid this by lack of air, too much water.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 8, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Na just let it breathe, lay it out flat on a tarp, give it a day or two. Water with a nice SST and or AACT tea. They will heal and rejuvenate. Avoid this by lack of air, too much water.


I'm an apartment dweller in the Midwest, unfortunately laying it out is not an option. Would turning it every 24 hours or so be best? 
I'll break up a compost tea and sst tonight


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## Mohican (Mar 8, 2015)

This guy is growing in a tub of native clay mixed with composted leaves and vermicompost. It is my third crop grown in this tub.




Cheers,
Mo


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## DonPetro (Mar 8, 2015)

Mohican said:


> This guy is growing in a tub of native clay mixed with composted leaves and vermicompost. It is my third crop grown in this tub.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are those female parts as well? Pretty frosty...


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## testiclees (Mar 10, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> May I ask your reasoning behind not using aloe more often?
> 
> P-


Purely anecdotal. Through observation ive surmised that occasional foliars and drenches seen most efficacious. I subscribe to the variety of inputs school of plant nutrition.

I think i see best results rotating through a series of mild drenches and foliars as a supplement to basic hi brix style.


----------



## testiclees (Mar 10, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Proof ? Not sure if this is true? Not saying the leaf doesn't have what we need, but I always assumed the fillet is what we are looking for? Also makes sinse because a healthy aloe is a nice juicy thick aloe. The unhealthy ones are flat with no fillet.


Good point. im searching for the reference for my claim. I believe that the fillet contains many polysaccharides but that the best effect is derived from the synergy of all the components in the leaf.

The skinny, shrunken leafs are the result of overlong storage or damage.

Let me know if you discover more info. ill keep looking for that reference.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 11, 2015)

Anyone ever work with landrace sativas? I've got one gal who I'm having the hardest time figuring out the best way to grow. She honestly acts like she'd prefer to be in just compost and to get blasted with light and heat.


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## DonPetro (Mar 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever work with landrace sativas? I've got one gal who I'm having the hardest time figuring out the best way to grow. She honestly acts like she'd prefer to be in just compost and to get blasted with light and heat.


Sativas really like them some N. However, looking at the pic i wouldn't advise giving it any at this stage. They also prefer a slightly acidic soil mix. If you can source some leaf mold for next run that would likely cover it. And you're right about them liking alot of light and heat. Really though that bud looks great!


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 11, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Sativas really like them some N. However, looking at the pic i wouldn't advise giving it any at this stage. They also prefer a slightly acidic soil mix. If you can source some leaf mold for next run that would likely cover it. And you're right about them liking alot of light and heat. Really though that bud looks great!


N, really?? That's odd because this lady hates it.
I'm actually about to source a whole bunch of ~1.5 year old leaf mold so that's good to know!! Thank you! I'm hoping she bulks up more, but judging by my last two attempt, I doubt it haha.


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## DonPetro (Mar 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> N, really?? That's odd because this lady hates it.
> I'm actually about to source a whole bunch of ~1.5 year old leaf mold so that's good to know!! Thank you! I'm hoping she bulks up more, but judging by my last two attempt, I doubt it haha.


I should have been more clear...ime they like a slow-release N source like feather meal present in the soil so it has it when it needs it.


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## Mohican (Mar 11, 2015)

Best landrace I ever grew was in a compost pile. The only thing I added was PK at the start of flower.

No burnt tips and she never got pale or got yellow fan leaves.







She even started to reveg in January but died when the weather got cold and wet in February.


Cheers,
Mo


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## Mohican (Mar 11, 2015)

This is one of her offspring in the dirt. She seems to have really liked the epsom salts I sprinkled in the area.




Cheers,
Mo


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 11, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> I should have been more clear...ime they like a slow-release N source like feather meal present in the soil so it has it when it needs it.


Ohhh now that actually makes sense. Well shoot. I plan on running this strain and others like it so I guess I'll be building another super soil mix for them lol. Cause there's no way my current mix would work, they'd fryyy.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 11, 2015)

Mohican said:


> This is one of her offspring in the dirt. She seems to have really liked the epsom salts I sprinkled in the area.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Mohican said:


> Best landrace I ever grew was in a compost pile. The only thing I added was PK at the start of flower.
> 
> No burnt tips and she never got pale or got yellow fan leaves.
> 
> ...


Wow!! Beautiful ladies! What gets fed to your compost pile?


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## Mohican (Mar 11, 2015)

Weeds in the yard, grass, leaves, banana peels, apple cores, vegetable scraps, coffee grounds, trim, worms, eggshells...whatever I can remember to toss in there.

That pile was four feet tall for almost a year and then when I planted the clone in August the pile was almost flat from decomposition!

I need to disclose that this was the same spot from a year earlier where I grew the trashcan monster with bottled nutes. I am sure that there was plenty of runoff in the same soil.






Cheers,
Mo


----------



## DonPetro (Mar 11, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Weeds in the yard, grass, leaves, banana peels, apple cores, vegetable scraps, coffee grounds, trim, worms, eggshells...whatever I can remember to toss in there.
> 
> That pile was four feet tall for almost a year and then when I planted the clone in August the pile was almost flat from decomposition!
> 
> ...


Wow! Love the grass skirt on trash can.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 11, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Weeds in the yard, grass, leaves, banana peels, apple cores, vegetable scraps, coffee grounds, trim, worms, eggshells...whatever I can remember to toss in there.
> 
> That pile was four feet tall for almost a year and then when I planted the clone in August the pile was almost flat from decomposition!
> 
> ...


still awesome to see this bitch................. remember the other monster(s) that took up half your side fencing


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 11, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Weeds in the yard, grass, leaves, banana peels, apple cores, vegetable scraps, coffee grounds, trim, worms, eggshells...whatever I can remember to toss in there.
> 
> That pile was four feet tall for almost a year and then when I planted the clone in August the pile was almost flat from decomposition!
> 
> ...


Lmao that isn't a pot plant, that's a damn tree!!


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## Mohican (Mar 11, 2015)

Pot of Gold:




Cheers,
Mo


----------



## hyroot (Mar 12, 2015)




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## Forte (Mar 12, 2015)

Is sphagnum peat moss the way to go when growing organically?


----------



## hyroot (Mar 12, 2015)

Forte said:


> Is sphagnum peat moss the way to go when growing organically?



yessir


----------



## a senile fungus (Mar 12, 2015)

Forte said:


> Is sphagnum peat moss the way to go when growing organically?


I use it too.

It likes to stay hydrated, it helps if you have a mulch or EWC or something on top of the soil to slow down evaporation.

If the peat gets dry it basically repels water, but once moist it can absorb many times its weight in water.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 12, 2015)

How do you guys feel about (good) Coco coir?


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## hyroot (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> How do you guys feel about (good) Coco coir?



its fine. I add some to my soil mix. I have a coco mix cooking now. I'm just going to try it with one plant. @May11th and @stowandgrow both had smaller yields compared to peat moss.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

hyroot said:


> its fine. I add some to my soil mix. I have a coco mix cooking now. I'm just going to try it with one plant. @May11th and @stowandgrow both had smaller yields compared to peat moss.


I've heard that coir produces less yield from a few people now. I really need to go out and buy some peat so I can do a side by side. I've always wanted to use both coir and peat to see if it's some magical combo, but part of me doubts it lol.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> How do you guys feel about (good) Coco coir?





hyroot said:


> its fine. I add some to my soil mix. I have a coco mix cooking now. I'm just going to try it with one plant. @May11th and @stowandgrow both had smaller yields compared to peat moss.





Midwest Weedist said:


> I've heard that coir produces less yield from a few people now. I really need to go out and buy some peat so I can do a side by side. I've always wanted to use both coir and peat to see if it's some magical combo, but part of me doubts it lol.


Greasemonkeyman had similar results too, but DP and DT rock it and seem to do great with it.

My grows were by no means anything controlled or scientific. Just my observation. Could have been a case of me not being familiar with it so I could very well have been under/over watering or something.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 13, 2015)

hyroot said:


> its fine. I add some to my soil mix. I have a coco mix cooking now. I'm just going to try it with one plant. @May11th and @stowandgrow both had smaller yields compared to peat moss.


yes, add me to that list as well.
15-20% smaller yield.
I do like to use the long hair-like coco, like the stuff they use in the pots to hold the soil, I use chunks (about one to two inch strips) of that in my soil just to increase aeration, I have so many different things in my soil for aeration, (I love me some aeration) but I like the way the hair kinda breaks up the soil but still retains water.
Damn, I think I have almost every kind of aeration in my soil right now, except vermiculite.
biochar, perlite, pumice, volcanic rock, rotten wood, coco hair strips, rice hulls, oyster shells...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yes, add me to that list as well.
> 15-20% smaller yield





st0wandgrow said:


> Greasemonkeyman had similar results too, but DP and DT rock it and seem to do great with it.
> 
> My grows were by no means anything controlled or scientific. Just my observation. Could have been a case of me not being familiar with it so I could very well have been under/over watering or something.


Could it have been the coir you used? I've heard that poorly/unpflushed coir can have excess salts? 
 
I've been told this brand is supposed to be an excellent one because they flush it well before packaging. It's what I use and have had good success with. Though I've never used peat in a base mix that I've made, just in a Fox Farm bagged soil.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Could it have been the coir you used? I've heard that poorly/unpflushed coir can have excess salts?
> View attachment 3371116
> I've been told this brand is supposed to be an excellent one because they flush it well before packaging. It's what I use and have had good success with. Though I've never used peat in a base mix that I've made, just in a Fox Farm bagged soil.


I don't think so. The brand I used was advertised as "triple washed" and was more expensive than some other options.

The plants grew just fine, and were totally healthy. It was just the yield that suffered. Like grease said above, maybe 20% less yield from those pots when compared to the peat based pots with the same strain grown in it.

If I had to guess, I'd say it's a CEC thing. According to Coot, P and others it doesn't compare to peat in that regard. Just a guess though.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 13, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Greasemonkeyman had similar results too, but DP and DT rock it and seem to do great with it.
> 
> My grows were by no means anything controlled or scientific. Just my observation. Could have been a case of me not being familiar with it so I could very well have been under/over watering or something.


I also may have been not doing it perfectly, but I was watering the same wa I would a peat based mix, not to mention I've grown a TON of different plants, from orchids, to violets, bougainvillea, begonias, jasmin, lavender, bamboo, etc, etc, etc.
I can't fathom it being a totally different concept, to be honest I attributed it to possibly the coco having too much salt in it or something (course I soaked and rinsed it).
the plants didn't look bad, no visible problems, just about 7/8 ths of what I normally get. Some may not even notice, but I had been running the same three strains for years at the time and I knew exactly what they where capable of. Not to mention as soon as I went back to a peat base, it was back to normal.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Could it have been the coir you used? I've heard that poorly/unpflushed coir can have excess salts?
> View attachment 3371116
> I've been told this brand is supposed to be an excellent one because they flush it well before packaging. It's what I use and have had good success with. Though I've never used peat in a base mix that I've made, just in a Fox Farm bagged soil.


no, it was I think triple washed or something, then I rinsed and soaked it at least twice.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Mar 13, 2015)

I started with coir, then moved to peat, never looked back. Dont mind mixing the two, but at this point it doesnt really matter.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> no, it was I think triple washed or something, then I rinsed and soaked it at least twice.


Interesting. I'm probably going to pick up some peat this weekend now. 

Any suggestions on brands / specific types?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Interesting. I'm probably going to pick up some peat this weekend now.
> 
> Any suggestions on brands / specific types?


You can pick up a 4cf bale at Home Depot (Premier) for about $12.00. This will be untreated, so you will have to lime it yourself. If you prefer something that has already been PH neutralized, then Pro Mix is another option. I bieleve Pro Mix is from Premier too.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> You can pick up a 4cf bale at Home Depot (Premier) for about $12.00. This will be untreated, so you will have to lime it yourself. If you prefer something that has already been PH neutralized, then Pro Mix is another option. I bieleve Pro Mix is from Premier too.


If I mix my own super soil with amendments like dolomite and powered egg shells, would this cover my liming needs or would I have to add more to compensate for the pH?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If I mix my own super soil with amendments like dolomite and powered egg shells, would this cover my liming needs or would I have to add more to compensate for the pH?


I prefer oyster shell flour as my main liming agent, but you certainly could use dolomite lime and/or egg shells. Through trial and error..... 1 cup per cf of oyster shell flour (along with the rest of the inputs/home made EWC) seems to do the trick. Unfortunately I can't give you a conversion for how much that would equate to for the dolo lime/eggshells as a I haven't messed with either (except for my worm bin) in a while.

I think if you're using ewc that have been supplemented with stuff like egg shells it goes a long way in stabalizing ph. Those microbes work best in the same ph range that your plant thrives in, so they will do a fine job buffering all on their own. I credit oyster shell flour for regulating my ph, but it could very well be that my worm bins are just dialed in at this point.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If I mix my own super soil with amendments like dolomite and powered egg shells, would this cover my liming needs or would I have to add more to compensate for the pH?


I use oyster flour, oyster shells (probably doesn't do much), crab meal, and biochar to help the ph stay where it needs to.
I also have a well amended ewc with eggshells, and a compost that has a good amount of roasted egg shells (pulverized), my compost also has oyster flour in it too


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I prefer oyster shell flour as my main liming agent, but you certainly could use dolomite lime and/or egg shells. Through trial and error..... 1 cup per cf of oyster shell flour (along with the rest of the inputs/home made EWC) seems to do the trick. Unfortunately I can't give you a conversion for how much that would equate to for the dolo lime/eggshells as a I haven't messed with either (except for my worm bin) in a while.
> 
> I think if you're using ewc that have been supplemented with stuff like egg shells it goes a long way in stabalizing ph. Those microbes work best in the same ph range that your plant thrives in, so they will do a fine job buffering all on their own. I credit oyster shell flour for regulating my ph, but it could very well be that my worm bins are just dialed in at this point.


I would prefer to use oyster shell flour but it didn't fit into the budget for my last batch of soil. It's on my next list though! I feed my worms A LOT of egg shells lol. Probably more than necessary. I get farm fresh organic eggs from a friend so I try to use them up rather than pitch them. 



greasemonkeymann said:


> I use oyster flour, oyster shells (probably doesn't do much), crab meal, and biochar to help the ph stay where it needs to.
> I also have a well amended ewc with eggshells, and a compost that has a good amount of roasted egg shells (pulverized), my compost also has oyster flour in it too


I started using biochar lately and it seems to really help my mix reach its potential. 
How do you go about roasting yours? I typically roast mine that I've crushed by hand at like 450°f then take my mortar and pestle. But I don't feed that to my worms, they get fresh ones. The roasted and powdered shells go into my mix.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I would prefer to use oyster shell flour but it didn't fit into the budget for my last batch of soil. It's on my next list though! I feed my worms A LOT of egg shells lol. Probably more than necessary. I get farm fresh organic eggs from a friend so I try to use them up rather than pitch them.
> 
> 
> I started using biochar lately and it seems to really help my mix reach its potential.
> How do you go about roasting yours? I typically roast mine that I've crushed by hand at like 450°f then take my mortar and pestle. But I don't feed that to my worms, they get fresh ones. The roasted and powdered shells go into my mix.


I do it the lazy way, buy a bag of the natural hippy-charcoal, and bust it up between two Olympic weight plates.
I agree with you though, I'll never go without the biochar again, which is easy for me to say considering it's in my soil already and I re-use.
if you like biochar, you may wana check out using rooten wood chunks too, it's sorta like a mini hugelkultur thing.
Works fabulous though


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 13, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I do it the lazy way, buy a bag of the natural hippy-charcoal, and bust it up between two Olympic weight plates.


That's a good idea! Can't beileve I didn't think to use the 45lb weights.

I was backing over the damn bag of charcoal in my driveway with my car. Back and forth like a moron. Pretty sure my neighbours think I'm insane.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

I'm reading up on hugelkultur now. I like the concept a lot. I wonder if I could take rotten wood chunks and add them near the bottom of say a 10 gallon or larger air planter with success. 


greasemonkeymann said:


> I do it the lazy way, buy a bag of the natural hippy-charcoal, and bust it up between two Olympic weight plates.
> I agree with you though, I'll never go without the biochar again, which is easy for me to say considering it's in my soil already and I re-use.
> if you like biochar, you may wana check out using rooten wood chunks too, it's sorta like a mini hugelkultur thing.
> Works fabulous though


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's a good idea! Can't beileve I didn't think to use the 45lb weights.
> 
> I was backing over the damn bag of charcoal in my driveway with my car. Back and forth like a moron. Pretty sure my neighbours think I'm insane.


Lmao that would be a site to see


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm reading up on hugelkultur now. I like the concept a lot. I wonder if I could take rotten wood chunks and add them near the bottom of say a 10 gallon or larger air planter with success.


yes!
only don't worry about putting them at the bottom, just mix them in like any other aeration.
I just get them from the forest, the more rotten the wood the better!


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 13, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yes!
> only don't worry about putting them at the bottom, just mix them in like any other aeration.
> I just get them from the forest, the more rotten the wood the better!


I'll go source some from this protected wooded area that this Hindu temple has taken care of for like the last 100 years. They don't do anything to the woods except take care of any garbage . Nice people, they let anyone walk the trails and stuff.


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## Mohican (Mar 14, 2015)

Ask them - they may have a sacred compost pile that is 100 years old! They may also like to sample some sacred green


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 14, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Ask them - they may have a sacred compost pile that is 100 years old! They may also like to sample some sacred green


If I see any of the members I will, they're pretty scarce though. They have the craziest weddings! Bright neon lights, music, dancing! I'll take some pictures of the temple if it isn't too muddy out.


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## Mohican (Mar 14, 2015)

Sounds like a rave! haha

Real Hindu Kush is the best smoke in the world!


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## Forte (Mar 14, 2015)

I need help guys. I want to grow in 10 gallon smart pots; how much sphagnum peat moss do i need to put in the smart pots, before adding perlite, earth worm castings, compost, and other amendments? 1 CF, perhaps?


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 15, 2015)

Forte said:


> I need help guys. I want to grow in 10 gallon smart pots; how much sphagnum peat moss do i need to put in the smart pots, before adding perlite, earth worm castings, compost, and other amendments? 1 CF, perhaps?


I'd say about .5 cubic feet. You can approximately calculate it based on this. I say approximately because my soil always compacts and add a couple more inches later.

(Gallons on pot)*(231)= Number of cubic inches in pot.

(Number of cubic inches)/12/12/12 = cubic feet of pot which is almost 1.5 cubic feet.


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 15, 2015)

Does anyone add worms to pots for aeration? I run 18 inch deep, 34 gallon soil beds on wheels and I want a worm that burrows to help with soil structure. I am having a hard time deciding between alabama jumpers and canadian nightcrawlers. I already have red wrigglers and europeans for composting.

I really like the night crawlers because they drag food deep into burrows. and dislike the jumpers because they look like snakes. but that isn't that important lol

What does everyone think?

Thanks!


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## Forte (Mar 15, 2015)

4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)
Can someone tell me if I'm right...Does he mean 16 cups of glacial, 4 cups bentonite, 4 cups oyster shell, 4 cups basalt?


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## Mohican (Mar 15, 2015)

I am growing plants in my worm bin if that counts:



Cheers,
Mo


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## goodjoint (Mar 16, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I am growing plants in my worm bin if that counts:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hahahahaha thats sooo fucking sweet!!!!!


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## goodjoint (Mar 16, 2015)

Does anyone use Blumats for their ROLS pots? Recommended or nah? My current grow is water only, so it'd be amazing to have it self water from a reservoir while i'm away.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 16, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> Does anyone use Blumats for their ROLS pots? Recommended or nah? My current grow is water only, so it'd be amazing to have it self water from a reservoir while i'm away.


I've been wondering the same thing. I've seen a few no till guys using them in commercial settings so I would assume they work well enough


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 16, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> Does anyone use Blumats for their ROLS pots? Recommended or nah? My current grow is water only, so it'd be amazing to have it self water from a reservoir while i'm away.


I haven't tried those yet, but I know of a few others that do. Rrog does for sure, or at least did at one point.


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## a senile fungus (Mar 16, 2015)

I've been thinking about getting them for over a year. Once I get this room setup, I'll see how feasible it really will be.


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## Scotch089 (Mar 16, 2015)

Greengenes and positivity do over in the led forum, they rock and I'll be grabbing some before the honeymoon.


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2015)

I do the Blumat. I might upgrade, though. Same drip concept, but better control


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## Pattahabi (Mar 16, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Does anyone add worms to pots for aeration? I run 18 inch deep, 34 gallon soil beds on wheels and I want a worm that burrows to help with soil structure. I am having a hard time deciding between alabama jumpers and canadian nightcrawlers. I already have red wrigglers and europeans for composting.
> 
> I really like the night crawlers because they drag food deep into burrows. and dislike the jumpers because they look like snakes. but that isn't that important lol
> 
> ...


Absol-freaking-lutely! My smart pots are giant worm bins with some plants! I just have to pull back some mulch for the worm show. 

Edit: Imo you want Epigeic worms (red wigglers, himalayan blues, euros, etc). I've never tried it, but I'm told regular old earth worms won't survive in pots.

Peace!

P-


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## Rrog (Mar 16, 2015)

^^^ I always like Pattahabi's posts, don't you all? ^^^


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 16, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> Does anyone use Blumats for their ROLS pots? Recommended or nah? My current grow is water only, so it'd be amazing to have it self water from a reservoir while i'm away.


I use blumats in my huge pots. When I first bought blumats I went with the regular size before I did proper research so I have been stuck with them ever since  I found you can use them for bigger pots you just have to move the dripper closer to the blumats. Anyways, I highly recommend them just because I haven't seen anything better. My plants love them, they are huge and I don't have to worry about water. And it works based on moisture and pressure so it will always keep the soil where you set it ime. 

If you are interested how they came up with the idea check this out.
http://permaculturenews.org/2010/09/16/ollas-unglazed-clay-pots-for-garden-irrigation/

I use those in my garden outside and blumats inside.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 16, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Absol-freaking-lutely! My smart pots are giant worm bins with some plants! I just have to pull back some mulch for the worm show.
> 
> Edit: Imo you want Epigeic worms (red wigglers, himalayan blues, euros, etc). I've never tried it, but I'm told regular old earth worms won't survive in pots.
> 
> ...


Regular earthworms will be fine in the pots, but I suppose it depends on your "regular" earthworms, I have some that are in my pots at all times, I can tell they are the big earthworms by the size of the castings, that and they tend to "pile" them up a lil different than the reds do.
Course our weather is pretty good here, so when I say native earthworms will live, I mean, here, (CA) and in my experience.
Easy to gather too, just put a tarp out before it rains and then after you'll have like 15 or 20 or so under them.
They are a must-have for large no-tills. I mean after all, they just till up your soil for you, and add their magic to it as they go.
I add at least ten good size ones to each of my pots, I breed them in my worm bin, they seem to get along just fine with the redworms.
I'm just a huge dork about it all, I like to reproduce the entire little ecosystem, from the microbes, to the bacteria, to the rotting wood, to the compost and worms, it's all VERY fascinating to me, more so than growing herb ever will be, which is a lil weird...


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## Pattahabi (Mar 16, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Regular earthworms will be fine in the pots, but I suppose it depends on your "regular" earthworms, I have some that are in my pots at all times, I can tell they are the big earthworms by the size of the castings, that and they tend to "pile" them up a lil different than the reds do.
> Course our weather is pretty good here, so when I say native earthworms will live, I mean, here, (CA) and in my experience.
> Easy to gather too, just put a tarp out before it rains and then after you'll have like 15 or 20 or so under them.
> They are a must-have for large no-tills. I mean after all, they just till up your soil for you, and add their magic to it as they go.
> ...


Grease, I misused the word 'earthworm'. What I should have said is anecic worms. I'm trying to find the the information I had read. Until then, as far as aeration, etc.

From Vermiculture Technologies:

III EFFECTS OF EARTHWORMS ON SOILS
The positive activities and benefits of earthworms have been appreciated since the times of Darwin (1881). By burrowing into the soil, earthworms provide channels that allow air to circulate more freely and equally permit rainwater to percolate in, rather than potentially causing erosion through surface runoff. The intimate mixing of soil layers brought about by earthworms’ ingestion of soil and their castings, either within the soil profile or on the soil surface, causes mineral components and organic fragments to become closely associated. The nature of the castings produced by earthworms is unique, and the crumb structure, and the aggregates formed by the various inorganic and organic components held together by mucus, is an ideal sub- strate for plant growth. Earthworm casts are rich in beneficial microorganisms and nutrients compared with the contents of the surrounding soil (Orazova et al. 2003). Therefore, passage of soil through the gut of an earthworm adds to the microbial status of soil (Edwards and Bohlen 1996). In many studies earthworms have been shown to have positive effects on the growth of vegetation. When earthworms were introduced to pastures where they were previously absent, initial production of grass increased by 70% in the first year (Stockdill and Cossens 1966). Root production by fruit trees was found to be greater where earthworms had been added to Dutch orchards on polder soils (Rhee 1971), and barley’s growth rate and yield were signifi- cantly increased by the presence of earthworms in direct drilled (no till) cultivation (Edwards and Lofty 1980). Senapati et al. (1994) also demonstrated that earthworm inoculation into commercial Indian tea plantations promoted fine root biomass and green leaf production.


V EARTHWORM ECOLOGICAL RELATIONSHIPS

All of the earthworms described to date (some 3000 or so species) can be placed into one of three major groupings: epigeic, endogeic, and anecic species (Bouché 1977). The first of these groups, the epigeic species, encompasses all of the earthworm species that inhabit the upper organic layers of the soil and may also occur within compost heaps (often referred to as “compost earthworms”). These include common species such as Eisenia fetida (the brandling or tiger worm) and Dendrobaena veneta (another earthworm) in Europe, Eudrilus eugeniae (the African night crawler) used in the United States, and Perionyx excavatus in Asia. This group of species is famil- iar to vermicomposters, and species in it are used extensively to break down various types of waste organic matter into vermicomposts. However, excluding Dendrobaena veneta and Lumbricus rubellus, most of these earthworms do not thrive well in min- eral soils and consequently are of limited use in land-improvement schemes (even though they may be sold for this purpose by some dealers).

Earthworms that fall within the other two major ecological groups do not require such a high level of organic matter and are very productive in mineral soils. Endogeic species may be of small size and live within temporary horizontal branching burrows close to the soil surface (e.g., Allolobophora chlorotica, Aporrectodea caliginosa). They are geophagous (soil-feeding) in nature—literally eating their way through the soil. Equally, some anecic species may be larger and inhabit more vertical and per- manent deep burrows (e.g., Aporrectodea longa, Lumbricus terrestris). The latter two species are the earthworms that can prove most useful in the process of land restora- tion. However, although their life cycles have the same three developmental stages (... adult → cocoon → hatchling → adult ...), they are less prolific in population buildup than the vermicompost earthworms. They do not have either the rapid growth or the rapid reproduction shown by vermicompost earthworms and consequently take longer to produce sustainable populations (i.e., they tend to be K-selected). Also, due to their lifestyle, culturing these earthworms proves more difficult since the substrate in which they must be maintained requires not only an organic food content but also a min- eral soil base. Thus a greater volume of material is needed, which may be difficult to accommodate. This is the major reason why earthworms have usually been collected for use from the field, rather than bred specifically in most research projects. However, if feasible, there may be advantages to breeding earthworms for field inoculation.

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 16, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Grease, I misused the word 'earthworm'. What I should have said is anecic worms. I'm trying to find the the information I had read. Until then, as far as aeration, etc.
> 
> From Vermiculture Technologies:
> 
> ...


ahh, as usual your link was an informative one. Good stuff there.
I do think that what I have in my wormbins is a specie of the anecic ones, reason I say that is that the do have the "cobra" tail, kinda like a spade, evidently to keep them from being plucked out of the ground when they surface.
It's weird though, I know for a FACT that they are reproducing, because the adolescents, babies, and cocoons look totally different, that and I only added maybe 30 or so to my wormbin, and that was back in sept or so, and now there are a whole lot more in there.
Maybe I have some weird native earthworm that doesn't mind a smartpot full of his redworm brothers and sisters (yeah I know they are hermaphrodites)
I love em though, and if you do any fishing the earthworms are waaaaay better than the reds


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 16, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Grease, I misused the word 'earthworm'. What I should have said is anecic worms. I'm trying to find the the information I had read. Until then, as far as aeration, etc.
> 
> From Vermiculture Technologies:
> 
> ...


Wow thats exactly what I was looking for! Thank you!


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 16, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Wow thats exactly what I was looking for! Thank you!


Pattahabi is one of our better members for useful organic information, I've learned a lot from him, and i'm sort of a organic nerd to begin with


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 16, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Regular earthworms will be fine in the pots, but I suppose it depends on your "regular" earthworms, I have some that are in my pots at all times, I can tell they are the big earthworms by the size of the castings, that and they tend to "pile" them up a lil different than the reds do.
> Course our weather is pretty good here, so when I say native earthworms will live, I mean, here, (CA) and in my experience.
> Easy to gather too, just put a tarp out before it rains and then after you'll have like 15 or 20 or so under them.
> They are a must-have for large no-tills. I mean after all, they just till up your soil for you, and add their magic to it as they go.
> ...


I'm definitely going to try that. I was thinking of getting some canadians at walmart too. I heard they don't live well in a worm bin so congratulations on breeding them for your pots! Do you grab any worms or the really large ones? I want to make sure they will burrow deep since my pots are full of clay. Getting them from outside should accomplish that.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 16, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I'm definitely going to try that. I was thinking of getting some canadians at walmart too. I heard they don't live well in a worm bin so congratulations on breeding them for your pots! Do you grab any worms or the really large ones? I want to make sure they will burrow deep since my pots are full of clay. Getting them from outside should accomplish that.


I think the key for me was getting the native ones, I imagine the Canadian ones would need a cooler environment.
I was just experimenting, as I have always read and heard that the nightcrawlers don't like compost bins, but like I said, maybe the native ones are a lil different?
All I did was rescue the big fatties from the puddles, and I put out a 6x6 foot tarp and got a bunch more that way.
Side note though, a pot full of clay based soil may have some problems breathing... Just sayin, you get a damn good CEC but not enough oxygen


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## zonderkop (Mar 16, 2015)

hi guys, my book is out, so feel free to click on the link in my signature. its great to see the topics that i cover regularly come up in this forum: worms in grow containers, blumats, mixes, etc...

thank you everyone for this beautiful forum. it's by far the most civil and informative one that i'm a part of.

i was nudged into growing because i live in a conservative town and work in a conservative industry. what had previously happened organically (finding a connection) never (or rarely) materialized.

so i went the DIY route. unfortunately, i was gardening across from the city's main criminal courthouse during a "crime of the decade" type case. cops were on my street 24/7 for months. i'm a pretty relaxed guy, but my 90+ day sativa was pushing my nerves.


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## zonderkop (Mar 16, 2015)

Forte said:


> 4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)
> Can someone tell me if I'm right...Does he mean 16 cups of glacial, 4 cups bentonite, 4 cups oyster shell, 4 cups basalt?


i always understood it as 4 TOTAL cups, with the ratios given; so 28 cups would be 4x as much


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## Forte (Mar 16, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> i always understood it as 4 TOTAL cups, with the ratios given; so 28 cups would be 4x as much


That seems like a lot.
Has anyone used decomposed granite?


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## hyroot (Mar 16, 2015)

Forte said:


> 4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)
> Can someone tell me if I'm right...Does he mean 16 cups of glacial, 4 cups bentonite, 4 cups oyster shell, 4 cups basalt?


1 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup basalt rock dust
1 cup bentonite ( volcanic ) rock dust
1 cup oyster shell flour

then after harvest when you replant the next plant in the same pot of soil, you only need to add half as much




Pattahabi said:


> Absol-freaking-lutely! My smart pots are giant worm bins with some plants! I just have to pull back some mulch for the worm show.
> 
> Edit: Imo you want Epigeic worms (red wigglers, himalayan blues, euros, etc). I've never tried it, but I'm told regular old earth worms won't survive in pots.
> 
> ...



so do you think its good to have the night crawlers. Since my worms vanished I've been trying to decide between ordering just the red wigglers from uncle jims or the combo of red wigglers and night crawlers from build a soil. with night crawlers its a better deal from build a soil. just red wigglers is a better deal from uncle jims.

I was kind of holding out hoping some cocoons would hatch. I haven't seen any. I'm on a tight budget for the next month.


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## zonderkop (Mar 17, 2015)

forgot to mention that ROLS posters get a copy (for personal use only) for free: http://we.tl/GRQ4FRYnfp


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## DonPetro (Mar 17, 2015)

hyroot said:


> 1 cup glacial rock dust
> 1 cup basalt rock dust
> 1 cup bentonite ( volcanic ) rock dust
> 1 cup oyster shell flour
> ...


Personally i'd go with just the red wrigglers.


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 17, 2015)

Forte said:


> 4 cups Rock Powders (4X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt)
> Can someone tell me if I'm right...Does he mean 16 cups of glacial, 4 cups bentonite, 4 cups oyster shell, 4 cups basalt?


Mix the bulk mix of glacial bentonite oyster and basalt and shake it. add four cups of that mix per cubic ft


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 17, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I think the key for me was getting the native ones, I imagine the Canadian ones would need a cooler environment.
> I was just experimenting, as I have always read and heard that the nightcrawlers don't like compost bins, but like I said, maybe the native ones are a lil different?
> All I did was rescue the big fatties from the puddles, and I put out a 6x6 foot tarp and got a bunch more that way.
> Side note though, a pot full of clay based soil may have some problems breathing... Just sayin, you get a damn good CEC but not enough oxygen


Native it is! I wet some cardboard with a leftover kelp tea and set it outside with leaves over it. I think I'll check it tonight.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 17, 2015)

Morning everyone! I noticed a few things this morning with my ladies I wanted to share. First was my landrace Yunnan. Has anyone ever gotten 8 blades like this before? I'm not sure if it's because of it being a landrace, a random mutation or possibly the affect of colloidal silver? 
 
I also have two Scotts Ogs and a B-52 (heavy feeder) lady who I was a bit heavy handed watering with a week ago. I got them to dry out before too much damage was done. They only lost their cotyledon and their first true leaves yellowed pretty bad. All new growth is lush and healthy. Except my B-52, she still seems really pale. I'm not sure if she is just bouncing back still or if my soil mix is too weak for her. The strain is meant for commercial hydroponics supposedly.  
Starting on the top left and going clockwise it goes Scotts og, b52, yunnan, Scotts og.


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## hyroot (Mar 17, 2015)

Back in 2003 I had strains from dutch passion, sagmartha, flying dutchmens, soma, and spice of life that all would produce 5,7,8,9 finger leaves.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 17, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Back in 2003 I had strains from dutch passion, sagmartha, flying dutchmens, soma, and spice of life that all would produce 5,7,8,9 finger leaves.


I've had plants throw off 4 or 2 leafers before, never 8. Totally caught me off guard with how symmetrical it is though


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## hyroot (Mar 17, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've had plants throw off 4 or 2 leafers before, never 8. Totally caught me off guard with how symmetrical it is though


Maybe its a mutant / dank pheno. like u.k. cheese, blue dream, ac/dc and russet potatoes

uk cheese - sister pheno to skunk 1
blue dream - blueberry haze
ac/dc - harlequinn
russet potatoes - early rose potatoes


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 17, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Maybe its a mutant / dank pheno. like u.k. cheese, blue dream, ac/dc and russet potatoes
> 
> uk cheese - sister pheno to skunk 1
> blue dream - blueberry haze
> ...


That would be amazing! Lol 
First bean popped of 6 so that'd be lucky to get a keeper on the first try.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 17, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Back in 2003 I had strains from dutch passion, sagmartha, flying dutchmens, soma, and spice of life that all would produce 5,7,8,9 finger leaves.


Yeah, my bluedream will consistently give me 9 fingers, I had a strain that had the typical odd set of leaves but then had a "middle" finger opposing them, always made me laugh, too bad that one wasn't a keeper.
I grew some bag seed out of some redbud that was REALLY strong back in the late 90s, and that girl outside had like these long-ass tendril like fingers, the most we counted was 15 true fingers (not counting the little two at the base), really thin leaves like maybe an inch, it was some insanity... started flowering in late may/early june and "ended" in early dec, I have ended in parentheses because it would have foxtailed probably all winter long and rotted from the rain.
ended up being about 15 feet from base to tip but I curled it over to sort of make like a cannabis lean-to, so I imagine it would have gotten much taller if I would have allowed it to grow straight.
Hmm, actually I think I kept a leaf in a big atlas book, i'll see if I can find it, damn thing was huge.
The herb wasn't as special as I would have liked it to be, (still very good, but not worth the effort & trimming) but I think that strain didn't belong in northern CA, it belonged like 5,000 miles south of there.
Even still though, it didn't really stretch like you'd think, it just never stopped growing like what most growers are used to, being the first two to three weeks strains grow and then fill in, but this thing just grew, and sprinkled foxtail nugs as she went.
I always have a soft spot for sativas... maybe some day i'll buy a place down south


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## Mohican (Mar 17, 2015)

Where did you get the landrace Yunnan? If you get any males, please let me know! I love landrace strains.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Where did you get the landrace Yunnan? If you get any males, please let me know! I love landrace strains.


Herbies! I bought a Femmed pack (booo I know) to see how I liked it medicinally. If it works better than the different Ogs I like, I'll buy a couple packs of regs to look for some breeding parents. So I'll definitely have some males... In the next year or two lol. 
I plan to eventually own a greenhouse / nursery that specializes in heirloom strains of cannabis and other plants. But mainly cannabis. I'd like to be "that guy"


----------



## 4ftRoots (Mar 19, 2015)

Something else to check out: 
http://www.vermico.com/journal-publishes-study-of-worms-reducing-human-pathogens-in-biosolids/

It is a study reporting vermicomposting can reduce pathogens as effectively as thermo composting. I think this is cool I may try to start composting some gross sh*t outside and see how it does lol. But really I'm glad I can skip pre composting all my manures and let the worms get down to business.


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## Rrog (Mar 20, 2015)

Vermicompost is the top amendment. I first learned from Coot about the immune system enhancements that come with VC. Even in the phyllosphere

Castings are great, but VC rules.


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## Mohican (Mar 20, 2015)

Here is a cool pH guide for soil:

http://vric.ucdavis.edu/pdf/Soil/ChangingpHinSoil.pdf

Cheers,
Mo


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 20, 2015)

kinda thought you guys would like pics of some comfrey flowers.
Can you guys spot the baby aloe?
Where's waldo?
Theres a pic of my jasmine too, the comfrey is connected sorta now...
All of that greenage and flowers are supplied by my comfrey/dandelion tea.
A lil comfrey on comfrey action for you organic guys
the sun was hitting it kinda weird so they are a lil hard to see


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 20, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> forgot to mention that ROLS posters get a copy (for personal use only) for free: http://we.tl/GRQ4FRYnfp


Hey Kip, wanted to let you know I read the *entire* book, and you did a hell of a job my friend.
Good stuff, I wish I had that back in the early 90s when I started.
kudos to you for putting it all together very eloquently and easy to read.


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## zonderkop (Mar 21, 2015)

Thanks. It was hell of a lot of work, but I'm glad I did it. There's a big gap between existing organic grow books and what is practice on this board. Of course, we're heavily borrowing from permaculture, but permaculture pot needs to be more well known. Even non-gardeners could benefit so to be more educated consumers.


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## Pattahabi (Mar 21, 2015)

hyroot said:


> 1 cup glacial rock dust
> 1 cup basalt rock dust
> 1 cup bentonite ( volcanic ) rock dust
> 1 cup oyster shell flour
> ...


That's BAS's mineral mix. That is not what Coot recommends. I haven't tried reamending minerals, but Coot said not to. It's a one time deal is my understanding. 

On the worms, I think it depends on the type of worm bin you are running. European nightcrawlers are going to work deeper in the soil which is not good for a continuous flow through. Red wigglers are going to work the top leaf litter, so not as deep. If you are going to through compost in a smart pot and leave it be, I'd use both.

Peace!

P-


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 21, 2015)

Permaculture garden are soo beautiful. Everything is connected some how, from water management, animals, soil, plants, everythiNg! I forgor where i read this, but i believe 1/4 of an acre can provide enough food for a family year round.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 21, 2015)

I've been having a bit of an issue with 3 of my ladies and I think I finally figured it out. We recently had to put our window ac in now that spring is here (Finally!! Seasonal Affective Disorder is a bitch) and I've noticed that at the bottom of my tent at the root zone it usually stays around 70 or less, even with a DIY riser under them to elevate them away from the cold floor. Now, the issue with my ladies is that about 2 weeks ago before I transplanted from solos I fudged and watered with a heavy hand. So they lost their bottom true leaves and started to get that jaundice look to them. I handled that issue, transplanted them as they needed more leg room, but they still have that overwatered sag and yellowing look to them. Their secondary branches and nodes are much greener, but not quite "healthy" looking like they should. I gave them an aloe vera and endo Mycorrhizae tea this morning. What is a bit strange to me is that my heavier feeder of the 3 is much paler in comparison.

Here's the B52


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## Pattahabi (Mar 21, 2015)

Is it possible to hit them with an EWC slurry? Or just add an inch or two of high quality vermicompost/EWC? If it were me I'd start with the castings, and then follow up with a kelp/alfalfa tea.

Peace!

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 21, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Is it possible to hit them with an EWC slurry? Or just add an inch or two of high quality vermicompost/EWC? If it were me I'd start with the castings, and then follow up with a kelp/alfalfa tea.
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


I'm going to have to dig around in my worm bin for some good vermicompost unless I want to order some online and wait. Damn lol I was hoping to avoid rooting around in my bin any more.


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## Mad Hamish (Mar 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've been having a bit of an issue with 3 of my ladies and I think I finally figured it out. We recently had to put our window ac in now that spring is here (Finally!! Seasonal Affective Disorder is a bitch) and I've noticed that at the bottom of my tent at the root zone it usually stays around 70 or less, even with a DIY riser under them to elevate them away from the cold floor. Now, the issue with my ladies is that about 2 weeks ago before I transplanted from solos I fudged and watered with a heavy hand. So they lost their bottom true leaves and started to get that jaundice look to them. I handled that issue, transplanted them as they needed more leg room, but they still have that overwatered sag and yellowing look to them. Their secondary branches and nodes are much greener, but not quite "healthy" looking like they should. I gave them an aloe vera and endo Mycorrhizae tea this morning. What is a bit strange to me is that my heavier feeder of the 3 is much paler in comparison.
> 
> Here's the B52 View attachment 3376987


This is definitely and most certainly magnesium deficiency
also mate. I do not know any organic emergency measures for mag def, but I would also shoot for an EWC top dress...


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 21, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> This is definitely and most certainly magnesium deficiency
> also mate. I do not know any organic emergency measures for mag def, but I would also shoot for an EWC top dress...


Thank you, I'll start googling for some organic quick fix methods for a magnesium deficiency. 
I'll get on that top dress 
I appreciate the help guys!


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 21, 2015)

Did some reading on fixing my deficiency and I realized that my dolomite lime should have taken care of my magnesium as well, right? I also have powered egg shells in my mix.
I can try and find some epsom salt to fix it, but I'm a little worried maybe it's something acting as a magnesium def? Though it's very possible I didn't use enough in my mix.

Edit: on second thought, would a kelp meal tea / vermicompost top dress be better than using epsom salt?


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## Mohican (Mar 21, 2015)

I heated my cabinet until my soil reading hit 78. It was 90 in the canopy but the girls went nuts with new vigor!


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## Forte (Mar 21, 2015)

So, I'm following a recipe that has oyster shell, if I have dolomite lime, is it necessary that I purchase oyster shell? Also, which is a better source of nitrogen, fish meal or a 50/50 mix of neem and karanja?


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## Mad Hamish (Mar 22, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Did some reading on fixing my deficiency and I realized that my dolomite lime should have taken care of my magnesium as well, right? I also have powered egg shells in my mix.
> I can try and find some epsom salt to fix it, but I'm a little worried maybe it's something acting as a magnesium def? Though it's very possible I didn't use enough in my mix.
> 
> Edit: on second thought, would a kelp meal tea / vermicompost top dress be better than using epsom salt?


Ah, dolomite. This might be the reason for your deficiency. It acts as a Ph buffer waaaaaaaaaaybefore it breaks down to make any magnesium available to the plant. Replace Dolly with a 50/50 mix of gypsum and crushed oyster shell. Another issue is how it is nailing your Ph really high. Dolomite lime removes the olant's capability to control Ph. Nutrient absorption changes per nute as Ph and temps change. I have a feeling your narrow Ph range coupled with lower temps are also affecting uptake. Epsom salts work very well for may deficiency, half tespoon per gallon water should do the trick every time. But in my OPINION top dressing worm castings is the best emergency treatment for most non bug issues.


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## zonderkop (Mar 22, 2015)

worm poo should work if it has had inputs with magnesium. on it's own, it may not help: 
https://www.bae.ncsu.edu/topic/vermicomposting/vermiculture/castings.html 

The nutrient content was much higher in the vermicomposts for most elements except magnesium [compared to commercial compost]. The researchers noted that many of the nutrients in waste materials (including nitrogen, potassium, phosphorus, calcium and magnesium), when processed by earthworms, are changed into forms more readily taken up by plants.​


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## zonderkop (Mar 22, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> forgot to mention that ROLS posters get a copy (for personal use only) for free: http://we.tl/GRQ4FRYnfp


The freebie link will expire tomorrow. If anyone could leave a review on Amazon.com, that would be tits.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 22, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Ah, dolomite. This might be the reason for your deficiency. It acts as a Ph buffer waaaaaaaaaaybefore it breaks down to make any magnesium available to the plant. Replace Dolly with a 50/50 mix of gypsum and crushed oyster shell. Another issue is how it is nailing your Ph really high. Dolomite lime removes the olant's capability to control Ph. Nutrient absorption changes per nute as Ph and temps change. I have a feeling your narrow Ph range coupled with lower temps are also affecting uptake. Epsom salts work very well for may deficiency, half tespoon per gallon water should do the trick every time. But in my OPINION top dressing worm castings is the best emergency treatment for most non bug issues.


I'm really wishing I had never bought any. It was just so cheap on that Hydro store shelf when I first got into Organics, box lasts forever too..
Well I went ahead and got some epsom salt last night and gave them a small watering (they already got watered yesterday morning) at a ratio of a tea spoon per gallon. I also used it to give them a foliar. Somewhere suggested I focus on getting the underside of the leaves more so than anything, so I did.
I also went through my worm bin last night and there's no way I'd have enough compost to top dress even one plant. I need to buy more worms instead I've been procrastinating for a month. 
Sigh. If the epsom salts don't work I may not be able to get any vermicompost / castings before I get paid again. So hopefully it does!!


How long does dolomite take to break down? I've let my soil mix mature for almost two months now, it's like 50+ days old now. I'm not afraid to give all of my plants some epsom salt but I'd rather avoid that if possible.
Maybe make a very light epsom salt "tea" to compensate until the dolo works and water that mix into my maturing soil? My Yunnan landrace that's a week younger than these 3 gals I've been talking about acts like it has nothing wrong with it even though it's in the same soil, less mg intake?


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## Mad Hamish (Mar 22, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm really wishing I had never bought any. It was just so cheap on that Hydro store shelf when I first got into Organics, box lasts forever too..
> Well I went ahead and got some epsom salt last night and gave them a small watering (they already got watered yesterday morning) at a ratio of a tea spoon per gallon. I also used it to give them a foliar. Somewhere suggested I focus on getting the underside of the leaves more so than anything, so I did.
> I also went through my worm bin last night and there's no way I'd have enough compost to top dress even one plant. I need to buy more worms instead I've been procrastinating for a month.
> Sigh. If the epsom salts don't work I may not be able to get any vermicompost / castings before I get paid again. So hopefully it does!!
> ...


I have never seen a deficiency on a land race so I guess you are spot on there, they do more with less food. The Epsom salts work fine, I used to use half of the recommended tsp per gallon and only one little watering with that has always been sufficient to see a clear difference within a few days. I was told that dolomite lime can take a few months to become useful for Mg, and was recommended to cook my dolly mixed soil for at least 12 weeks. Since switching up to the gypsum and oyster shell I will feel cool with a four week cook and can probably get away with less. Bro I totally overdosed an outdoor crop on dolly back in the day, I can definitely relate to 'wish I never got this stuff'... After this light Epsom salt feed give them a few days, they should go greener feom the veins of the leaves outwards at first... I love watching the recovery phase. Cannabis has an awesome will to not only live, but thrive.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 22, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> I have never seen a deficiency on a land race so I guess you are spot on there, they do more with less food. The Epsom salts work fine, I used to use half of the recommended tsp per gallon and only one little watering with that has always been sufficient to see a clear difference within a few days. I was told that dolomite lime can take a few months to become useful for Mg, and was recommended to cook my dolly mixed soil for at least 12 weeks. Since switching up to the gypsum and oyster shell I will feel cool with a four week cook and can probably get away with less. Bro I totally overdosed an outdoor crop on dolly back in the day, I can definitely relate to 'wish I never got this stuff'... After this light Epsom salt feed give them a few days, they should go greener feom the veins of the leaves outwards at first... I love watching the recovery phase. Cannabis has an awesome will to not only live, but thrive.


Which is why I love landraces so much. The only issues I ever had was with a columbian gold that hated if you even looked at her wrong.. Finicky thing. 
It may just be me, but it seems as if the b52 has started to lift up again instead of sagging. No green yet obviously but it surprised me this morning when I took a peak. I also toyed with my fans and I think I corrected my cold root zone issue. Rh rose a bit too so that makes me happy. 
Damn, 12 weeks? I'm at like half that.. That would definitely help explain my issue. 
I remember looking at buildasoils products and thinking "nah, I'll just use up my dolomite". Never again.. 
There should be a thread in the organic section warning people about dolomite lime. 

What ended up happening to that outdoor crop?


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## Mad Hamish (Mar 22, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Which is why I love landraces so much. The only issues I ever had was with a columbian gold that hated if you even looked at her wrong.. Finicky thing.
> It may just be me, but it seems as if the b52 has started to lift up again instead of sagging. No green yet obviously but it surprised me this morning when I took a peak. I also toyed with my fans and I think I corrected my cold root zone issue. Rh rose a bit too so that makes me happy.
> Damn, 12 weeks? I'm at like half that.. That would definitely help explain my issue.
> I remember looking at buildasoils products and thinking "nah, I'll just use up my dolomite". Never again..
> ...


Well if you like the build a soil guys' products, and you want to make a mix every inch as good (those guys are not Mickey Mouse they know what they are doing) all the knowledge you will ever need is around here on this thread  You are right, it is a great idea for a thread, call it 'dangerous or useless organic amendments' or something like that. There was one like that on a different forum which happens to be exactly where I got all my info on dolomite lime from. Coot was very good at explaining it all. That particular overdosed crop was taken to finish but just barely. Got some bud is all I can say. It was pretty severe though, one of my first ever runs so when I was told to buffer my soil I just dumped a bag of the stuff in and barely mixed properly lol... bro it was BAD.


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## Pattahabi (Mar 22, 2015)

I still say hit them with a good amount of castings. It's the microbes in the castings that you are really looking for. Add an inch or two of castings, cover with mulch, water them in, and you will be seeing green leaves very quickly. I have also been known to sprinkle some amendments inbetween the ewc and mulch layers. A little kelp meal should cover your trace elements. If you want, add a little neem meal for ipm.

Peace!

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 22, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Well if you like the build a soil guys' products, and you want to make a mix every inch as good (those guys are not Mickey Mouse they know what they are doing) all the knowledge you will ever need is around here on this thread  You are right, it is a great idea for a thread, call it 'dangerous or useless organic amendments' or something like that. There was one like that on a different forum which happens to be exactly where I got all my info on dolomite lime from. Coot was very good at explaining it all. That particular overdosed crop was taken to finish but just barely. Got some bud is all I can say. It was pretty severe though, one of my first ever runs so when I was told to buffer my soil I just dumped a bag of the stuff in and barely mixed properly lol... bro it was BAD.


I have a soil mix recipe that I made, I call it my "dream mix". The only thing that keeps me from building it is $$. Which is why I went with my old dolomite instead of buying gypsum and oyster shell flour. Which I actually believe Pattahabi suggested to me when I first started poking around the forum for organic soil mix advice last year (You were right Pat! Lol). 
That's a bummer about your experience. But hey, now you know! I laughed pretty good picturing you dumping the bag. Sounds exactly like something I'd do. 

I might sit down and come up with a rough list stuff that would fit that description of a thread. I feel it could be a good bit of help to those who are transitioning into organics from non organic practices, like I did.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 22, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Did some reading on fixing my deficiency and I realized that my dolomite lime should have taken care of my magnesium as well, right? I also have powered egg shells in my mix.
> I can try and find some epsom salt to fix it, but I'm a little worried maybe it's something acting as a magnesium def? Though it's very possible I didn't use enough in my mix.
> 
> Edit: on second thought, would a kelp meal tea / vermicompost top dress be better than using epsom salt?


Dolo/horti lime is a "east of the rockies" thing , where generally the local soil mixes are ,mostly peat based(acidic).......very easy to overdo, and mag tox/lhigh ph will lock plenty grower. Need a soil test & follow spread rates to use this stuff successfully=== that's why i recommend growers to stay with ewc/crustacean shells/gypsum(calcium sulfate)/egg shell/ etc for cal-mag.

If you get signs of a cal/mag def in a light amended mix, foliar feeding mineral water(san pellegrino/gerolsteiner) will help and co2 boost is always nice

transplant imo


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 22, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Dolo/horti lime is a "east of the rockies" thing , where generally the local soil mixes are ,mostly peat based(acidic).......very easy to overdo, and mag tox/lhigh ph will lock plenty grower. Need a soil test & follow spread rates to use this stuff successfully=== that's why i recommend growers to stay with ewc/crustacean shells/gypsum(calcium sulfate)/egg shell/ etc for cal-mag.
> 
> If you get signs of a cal/mag def in a light amended mix, foliar feeding mineral water(san pellegrino/gerolsteiner) will help and co2 boost is always nice
> 
> transplant imo


I planned to originally use peat but coir was available and cheaper. It's funny now that I probably would have been fine if I went with peat. 
I don't think a transplant will do me anything except stressing them even more. I just transplanted from 1 gallons into 3 gallon air planters last week. As soon as my 10 gallons arrive they'll get thrown in them, given they stretched their roots enough.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 23, 2015)

I gave the three ladies that most of us agree has a magnesium deficiency a light (probably a half tablespoon per 3 gallon container) kelp meal top dress with an almost negligible amount of karanja/neem meal. I resowed my cover crop too as I think I let my rhizosphere get a bit too dry. To this day I still struggle with getting the waterings right in air planters, dunno why.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 23, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I gave the three ladies that most of us agree has a magnesium deficiency a light (probably a half tablespoon per 3 gallon container) kelp meal top dress with an almost negligible amount of karanja/neem meal. I resowed my cover crop too as I think I let my rhizosphere get a bit too dry. To this day I still struggle with getting the waterings right in air planters, dunno why.


a mag def is easy to remedy, give them a BSM tea, you already got the kelp, but the molasses has both cal and mag and it's soluble too.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 23, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> a mag def is easy to remedy, give them a BSM tea, you already got the kelp, but the molasses has both cal and mag and it's soluble too.


Bsm? I'm not familiar with that acronym. 

Well now I'm a little sad I ditched the molasses for ssts. If the epsom salts don't give me any results in the next couple of days I'll pick some up.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 23, 2015)

here are some random pictures for you gents (and ladies)
first is a monster redworm I saw, thought you'd wanna see, this sucker is a fattie.. All my reds are these obese little guys, they like the frozen/mashed/then thawed fruits.
some comfrey, my horsetail/aloe plant...
Some pics of a huge-ass legume too (grown alongside my madjack), and my no-till pots
nothing profound, but now that I have the pictures loading it's nice to share them.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 23, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Bsm? I'm not familiar with that acronym.
> 
> Well now I'm a little sad I ditched the molasses for ssts. If the epsom salts don't give me any results in the next couple of days I'll pick some up.


sorry buddy, bsm is black strap molasses, and yea, I never have any issues with any micros.
the kelp, neem, minerals, and BSm covers that.
and a SST is a totally different thing than a BSM tea, a SSTs is just for the enzymes and fancy growth hormones/large-multisyllabic-words I can't pronounce..
the bsm is simply a nutrient tea.
one tablespoon per two gallons is what i'd recommend, you can does up to a tbsp. per gallon if you want, but I wouldn't do that one more than once.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 23, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> sorry buddy, bsm is black strap mollases


Wow, that went right over my head lol.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 23, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> This is definitely and most certainly magnesium deficiency
> also mate. I do not know any organic emergency measures for mag def, but I would also shoot for an EWC top dress...


you probably already knew this and just forgot, but sometimes people overlook the micros in molasses. Along with potassium as well.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 23, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've been having a bit of an issue with 3 of my ladies and I think I finally figured it out. We recently had to put our window ac in now that spring is here (Finally!! Seasonal Affective Disorder is a bitch) and I've noticed that at the bottom of my tent at the root zone it usually stays around 70 or less, even with a DIY riser under them to elevate them away from the cold floor. Now, the issue with my ladies is that about 2 weeks ago before I transplanted from solos I fudged and watered with a heavy hand. So they lost their bottom true leaves and started to get that jaundice look to them. I handled that issue, transplanted them as they needed more leg room, but they still have that overwatered sag and yellowing look to them. Their secondary branches and nodes are much greener, but not quite "healthy" looking like they should. I gave them an aloe vera and endo Mycorrhizae tea this morning. What is a bit strange to me is that my heavier feeder of the 3 is much paler in comparison.
> 
> Here's the B52 View attachment 3376987


What size container do you have that plant in midwest?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 23, 2015)

3 gallons, just transplanted her probably 4 or 5 days ago from a 1 gallon. She was a bit root bound, but not bad enough that I couldn't fix it with a couple minutes of gently massaging the dirt loose from the roots to unwind them. 


st0wandgrow said:


> What size container do you have that plant in midwest?


It dawned on me this morning that I could partially be having an issue because of that. But I think it would have been more of an additional cause to my issues, not the core issue.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 23, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> 3 gallons, just transplanted her probably 4 or 5 days ago from a 1 gallon. She was a bit root bound, but not bad enough that I couldn't fix it with a couple minutes of gently massaging the dirt loose from the roots to unwind them.
> 
> 
> It dawned on me this morning that I could partially be having an issue because of that. But I think it would have been more of an additional cause to my issues, not the core issue.


it's hard to tell but your soil looks a lil dark, what kind of aeration do you have?
May be simply retaining more water than it likes.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 23, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> 3 gallons, just transplanted her probably 4 or 5 days ago from a 1 gallon. She was a bit root bound, but not bad enough that I couldn't fix it with a couple minutes of gently massaging the dirt loose from the roots to unwind them.
> 
> 
> It dawned on me this morning that I could partially be having an issue because of that. But I think it would have been more of an additional cause to my issues, not the core issue.





greasemonkeymann said:


> it's hard to tell but your soil looks a lil dark, what kind of aeration do you have?
> May be simply retaining more water than it likes.


Thats what I'm thinking grease. That looks like a plant where the root zone is being starved of oxygen to me.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 23, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Thats what I'm thinking grease. That looks like a plant where the root zone is being starved of oxygen to me.


my thoughts too man, good call.
the problem sometimes with organic soil heavy in compost and vermicompost. Gets a little thick.
Sorta why I made my mix using the normal 33/33/33, and then after all of that then I added a metric ass-ton of rotten wood chunks.
Too much aeration is never a bad thing when the aeration used, retains water.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 23, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> it's hard to tell but your soil looks a lil dark, what kind of aeration do you have?
> May be simply retaining more water than it likes.


I use the 33% - 33% - 33% rario for my compost/vermicompost - aeration - and coir
My aeration is 40% lava rock, 40% rice hulls, and 20% biochar. Should I add more lava rock or rice hulls to the mix next time I up pot?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

Whatever the issue was, she's looking better. I finally got my temps at 74.5 from the bottom of my tent to the top. She's no longer droopy and she's getting her green back, albeit slowly. The other ladies are perking up a lot at the tops too. 
Thanks guy!


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## hyroot (Mar 24, 2015)

http://www.thecannabist.co/2015/03/23/denver-marijuana-plants-quarantined-possible-pesticides/32008/


too bad they didn't know about rols no till


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## DonBrennon (Mar 24, 2015)

Hi Guys,

New to the thread and to organics, got 8 x 20 gal smart pots trying to get a living soil going, with a nice cover crop of diff clovers, alfalfa, comfrey and borage which have all been cropped and dropped a couple of times and also a handful of worms in each, as well as being watered with a few AACTs and a compost extract. Anyway, I've just been down to my local park to collect worms from their massive compost pile (for my worm bin) and noticed a large amount of millipedes in and around the worms. From the little I've read about them they help chew up materials on or near the surface making it easier for bacteria, fungus and worms to eat this plant matter. Have any of you guys any experience with them? Do you think they would benefit my worm bin/pots or should I separate them out and get rid?

Thanks in advance for any response


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 24, 2015)

DonBrennon said:


> Hi Guys,
> 
> New to the thread and to organics, got 8 x 20 gal smart pots trying to get a living soil going, with a nice cover crop of diff clovers, alfalfa, comfrey and borage which have all been cropped and dropped a couple of times and also a handful of worms in each, as well as being watered with a few AACTs and a compost extract. Anyway, I've just been down to my local park to collect worms from their massive compost pile (for my worm bin) and noticed a large amount of millipedes in and around the worms. From the little I've read about them they help chew up materials on or near the surface making it easier for bacteria, fungus and worms to eat this plant matter. Have any of you guys any experience with them? Do you think they would benefit my worm bin/pots or should I separate them out and get rid?
> 
> Thanks in advance for any response


I wouldn't introduce them to a worm bin. Pretty sure they are capable of eating worms


----------



## DonBrennon (Mar 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I wouldn't introduce them to a worm bin. Pretty sure they are capable of eating worms


Hahaha, yup, just did a quick search and found this 



, SHIT, they're going no where near my worm bin


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 24, 2015)

DonBrennon said:


> Hahaha, yup, just did a quick search and found this
> 
> 
> 
> , SHIT, they're going no where near my worm bin


hah, how shitty would that be?
happy lil worm paradise and then all of a sudden a predatory monstrous multi-legged creature is introduced and then you just have to hang out under the soil in sheer terror. Popping up only to hear the worm screams of your brethren being eaten?
Yea, I said worm screams...
It'd be like going to prison and having a REALLY bad cell-mate.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I use the 33% - 33% - 33% rario for my compost/vermicompost - aeration - and coir
> My aeration is 40% lava rock, 40% rice hulls, and 20% biochar. Should I add more lava rock or rice hulls to the mix next time I up pot?


I like volcanic rock over rice hulls for no-tills, they never break down.
Can you get any rotten wood chunks in there? really conditions the soil well, and the plants freakin love it, and you don't need to water as often.
I can go a whole extra 12-24 hrs before watering in the soil I have, for the container I know what is typical watering schedule is for an established flowering plant, so I can tell the difference, the wood acts like mini sponges, without retaining too much water, and then it slowly leaches the water bac into the soil, kinda making the soil more "humid", the difference is visible for the roots. The entire smart pot is a solid rootball and that is a 12 or 15 gallon smartpot, with plants no larger than three feet.
Some serious roots going on there...
Another thing I like, is cutting up small 1-2 inch strips of the coco-wool, like the stuff they line planters with, it holds moisture really well and keeps little pockets of air without getting too dry.
Ok, so maybe I go a lil overboard with my aeration... but damnit, roots are the *key *behind it all.
The "engine and drivetrain" of the cannabis plant, the flowers are simply the body of the car... what everyone looks at...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

hyroot said:


> View attachment 3379431
> 
> http://www.thecannabist.co/2015/03/23/denver-marijuana-plants-quarantined-possible-pesticides/32008/
> 
> ...


Saw that on Instagram this morning!! They'd save so much money if they'd go notill.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I like volcanic rock over rice hulls for no-tills, they never break down.
> Can you get any rotten wood chunks in there? really conditions the soil well, and the plants freakin love it, and you don't need to water as often.
> I can go a whole extra 12-24 hrs before watering in the soil I have, for the container I know what is typical watering schedule is for an established flowering plant, so I can tell the difference, the wood acts like mini sponges, without retaining too much water, and then it slowly leaches the water bac into the soil, kinda making the soil more "humid", the difference is visible for the roots. The entire smart pot is a solid rootball and that is a 12 or 15 gallon smartpot, with plants no larger than three feet.
> Some serious roots going on there...
> ...


I can, I just have to wait until it warms up and stops raining. It's been sub 45°f and rainy for the last week. I mean I could.. But I'd rather not be a mud monster haha. 
I'll dig around my grandparents compost bin though, they may have a couple chunks if I can remember right.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

Here's a couple pictures of my Yunnan gal. I can't believe how bushy she is. She loves my soil too


----------



## Pattahabi (Mar 24, 2015)

@midwest-weedist is that China Yunnan from Ace Seeds?

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> @midwest-weedist is that China Yunnan from Ace Seeds?
> 
> P-


Sure is! Femmed unfortunately, but judging by how it's grown so far, I'll be ordering a few packs of regs sometime to hunt for a few phenos.


----------



## Pattahabi (Mar 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Sure is! Femmed unfortunately, but judging by how it's grown so far, I'll be ordering a few packs of regs sometime to hunt for a few phenos.


I have a packs of Ace's Nepal Jam, Congo, and Double Thai sitting in the stash tin! I've eyed the China Yunnan a couple of times now! I can't wait to hear how that one turns out for you!

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I have a packs of Ace's Nepal Jam, Congo, and Double Thai sitting in the stash tin! I've eyed the China Yunnan a couple of times now! I can't wait to hear how that one turns out for you!
> 
> P-


Ooooooo Thai! I've always wanted to try a pure Thai, but those flowering times... 
I'll be sure to keep you updated! I'll be taking a few cuttings for outdoors as well so we'll see how she does! If any of my Afghani beans are male I'll be pollinating a yunnan to see what I can get.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 24, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Ooooooo Thai! I've always wanted to try a pure Thai, but those flowering times....


No doubt. I've got a pack of Purple Haze x Thai that has an 18-20 week flowering time.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> No doubt. I've got a pack of Purple Haze x Thai that has an 18-20 week flowering time.


Fuuu- That's as long as my entire grow time for most strains. Longer by far actually!


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## gilbsy123 (Mar 24, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> No doubt. I've got a pack of Purple Haze x Thai that has an 18-20 week flowering time.


That's almost 5 months. I wonder how that works out in the great outdoors.

What's the other 7 months like in Thailand? Veg time? Do those plants get huge or what?

How well do they yield, for you?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2015)

gilbsy123 said:


> That's almost 5 months. I wonder how that works out in the great outdoors.
> 
> What's the other 7 months like in Thailand? Veg time? Do those plants get huge or what?
> 
> How well do they yield, for you?


If I remember correctly, a lot of those places are equatorial and don't get a "winter" month necessarily. So it's one long grow season, or a long one and a shorter one, etc.


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 25, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If I remember correctly, a lot of those places are equatorial and don't get a "winter" month necessarily. So it's one long grow season, or a long one and a shorter one, etc.


I always was curious about getting a timer that was done only in hrs, just so I could get the best of both worlds, meaning a long ass day for the sativa, but still a 12 hr night to keep the flowers "somewhat" denser/faster.
Like maybe a 15/12 setup?
Just always wondered what that would do? Everything I have ever learned about cannabis being a photoperiod determinate plant, so if the 12 hr darkness was met, I would speculate it would flower..
o you get an extra 3 hrs of light while keeping the night intact.
I wonder if that would either
A. hasten the flowering time, or
B. keep the flowers tighter/shorter Or
C. nothing at all.
Oh and side note, here are some pics of my no-till plants I just harvested.
first is the sugarpunch, second is the mad scientist X jackberry (super great but weird smell)
 Both form sannies, and both were sadly abused a lil, I had to keep them in my vege room for 8 months longer than normal, so when I transplanted them, the rootball looked like wrapped twine.
They rebounded alright, the plant was a lil beat up at the end, but the flowers look really nice.
I know the pics are crappy, my camera is broke, I can hear the focus constantly refocusing.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Mar 25, 2015)

gilbsy123 said:


> That's almost 5 months. I wonder how that works out in the great outdoors.
> 
> What's the other 7 months like in Thailand? Veg time? Do those plants get huge or what?
> 
> How well do they yield, for you?


I don't know how it's going to yield. I've pulled that pack out of the seed tin a couple times, got cold sweats, then put it right back in the tin. 20 weeks is a long haul!


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## DonPetro (Mar 25, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't know how it's going to yield. I've pulled that pack out of the seed tin a couple times, got cold sweats, then put it right back in the tin. 20 weeks is a long haul!


Maybe DonTeslas Black Forrest grow will help inspire you.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 26, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I always was curious about getting a timer that was done only in hrs, just so I could get the best of both worlds, meaning a long ass day for the sativa, but still a 12 hr night to keep the flowers "somewhat" denser/faster.
> Like maybe a 15/12 setup?
> Just always wondered what that would do? Everything I have ever learned about cannabis being a photoperiod determinate plant, so if the 12 hr darkness was met, I would speculate it would flower..
> o you get an extra 3 hrs of light while keeping the night intact.
> ...


I've wondered that same thing! I've always wanted to try and figure out a way to do that. Talk about a confusing schedule to keep up with though.


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## Mad Hamish (Mar 26, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> No doubt. I've got a pack of Purple Haze x Thai that has an 18-20 week flowering time.


Wow that's pretty extreme... Better know you are gonna love it eh.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 26, 2015)

Gave them an aloe foliar last night. I'll be up potting the yunnan in the middle tomorrow. 

Anyone else getting a jump start on the outdoor season?


----------



## foreverflyhi (Mar 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Gave them an aloe foliar last night. I'll be up potting the yunnan in the middle tomorrow.
> View attachment 3380991
> Anyone else getting a jump start on the outdoor season?
> View attachment 3380997
> View attachment 3381001


Haha a jump in outdoor season in my opinion is at least 6 months! 
Yup i have medium size plants that will be this year's outdoor crop, hopefully the next two months they will double in size, quadruple by flower. Weird times we are living in, not sure when flowering time is this year


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 26, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Haha a jump in outdoor season in my opinion is at least 6 months!
> Yup i have medium size plants that will be this year's outdoor crop, hopefully the next two months they will double in size, quadruple by flower. Weird times we are living in, not sure when flowering time is this year


If I had the room to veg full size plants for outdoors I'd have literal trees. I've always wanted to do a full year of veg then let the sun take over for 6 months. 
What strains you throwing outdoors?


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If I had the room to veg full size plants for outdoors I'd have literal trees. I've always wanted to do a full year of veg then let the sun take over for 6 months.
> What strains you throwing outdoors?


Ill take pics of outdoor crop later today, for now here they are a couple days before i took them out.
Durango og from la plata
Sour pez
Critical kush
King Louie







Heres a more updated pic of my soon to be monster scrog, critcal kush






Yup thats just one plant







When im readynim going to do a journal here in the organic section. 

Led + ROLS all day


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 27, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Ill take pics of outdoor crop later today, for now here they are a couple days before i took them out.
> Durango og from la plata
> Sour pez
> Critical kush
> ...


Wow! Those look absolutely amazing


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## radicaldank42 (Mar 27, 2015)

daumn forever!!! fuckingf amazing!!!! im running royal queens critical rite now lol not the critical kush but just critical. and my own fire ogbx x afghan kush and my romulan x white skunk and northern lights x white skunk. wait till whats nexct. lol I will havbe new "smart" phone soon so I can take photos. I even haver a gurilla glue #4 that I crossed with my whiteskunk'


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## Pattahabi (Mar 27, 2015)

@foreverflyhi how many gallons is the tan pot at the bottom with the big monster? 

Looking outstanding man! Organics ftw!

P-


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## earthling420 (Mar 29, 2015)

Has anyone else noticed how different the plant is from synthetics vs organic? wow. I'm still in veg and so much is different. the way the plant feels and behaves and it is hairy lol and the stems are green like gel under the hairs. Loving LOS. can't wait for flower and harvest! plant also has great terpenes coming through already! it's only getting better lol


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 29, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Has anyone else noticed how different the plant is from synthetics vs organic? wow. I'm still in veg and so much is different. the way the plant feels and behaves and it is hairy lol and the stems are green like gel under the hairs. Loving LOS. can't wait for flower and harvest! plant also has great terpenes coming through already! it's only getting better lol


I noticed that when I moved from bagged soil with synthetic nutes to rols and notill that they looked like plants that had grown outdoors. They smell as early as 3 or 4 weeks into veg (this still blows mind). One thing that my girl and I also noticed is that with my organic bud it's hard for us to build up a tolerance to it. After a month of heavy smoking daily of the same strain, we could still smoke a chillum and get very medicated. It also seems to last longer, the high I mean.


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## Pattahabi (Mar 29, 2015)

The first thing I noticed was smoking synthetic gave me respiratory problems. I haven't had that issue since switching to organics. The smoke is smooth and doesn't burn my throat. I don't smoke cigarettes, but it always makes me wonder what organic tobacco would be like. Would it cause cancer like cigarettes today?

P-


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## zonderkop (Mar 29, 2015)

somehow, it always comes back to organics: http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2014/02/10/radioactive-fertilizer.aspx

It's well-recognized that smoking cigarettes can cause lung cancer. What isn't clear is exactly _what_ it is in the cigarette or its smoke that causes it. It may be polonium-210—a highly radioactive element that releases alpha particles as it decays. It's also chemically toxic. 

While naturally present in small amounts in the environment, one of the primary sources of exposure is via _calcium phosphate fertilizers_, used on tobacco fields and food crops respectively.​
Research suggests that it's the radiation from these fertilizers that appear to cause the most lung damage, and are the primary cause of cancer in smokers. In fact, polonium is the only component of cigarette smoke shown to produce cancer in laboratory animals.​


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## zonderkop (Mar 29, 2015)

yeah, i typically vape, but did smoke a joint of my stuff out of curiosity. very smooth and very clean effect, without a groggy comedown that i associated with smoking. biggest difference was i stunk up the place.

i've always wondered if joint is a vape too: draw in hot air, which passes through the weed right behind the burning section.


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 29, 2015)

One of the most notable difference was how the synthetic plants looked before their "fix" and after. Its litterraly like a herion addict getting its fix.

And @Pattahabi i believe its a 40 gallon? Currently only have half full, planning on filling up the rest today! I never looked back since i switched to larger containers and beds.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 29, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> yeah, i typically vape, but did smoke a joint of my stuff out of curiosity. very smooth and very clean effect, without a groggy comedown that i associated with smoking. biggest difference was i stunk up the place.
> 
> i've always wondered if joint is a vape too: draw in hot air, which passes through the weed right behind the burning section.


I've been bringing this up with friends for years. I think it would make sense why some people claim they get higher when smoking something that's rolled if that is true.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Mar 29, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Has anyone else noticed how different the plant is from synthetics vs organic? wow. I'm still in veg and so much is different. the way the plant feels and behaves and it is hairy lol and the stems are green like gel under the hairs. Loving LOS. can't wait for flower and harvest! plant also has great terpenes coming through already! it's only getting better lol


Yup the difference is clear as day to me, no radiance to hydro even if they look healthy they never SHINE.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 29, 2015)

Anyone have any good information on ideal root zone temperatures and their relationship to air temperatures and/or rh. I was thinking today that even when it's 100° degrees in the middle of summer here, if I dig down a couple of feet, the soil feels cool. I'd guess that below 2 feet if it's not dry that it's probably below 70°. So if the root zone is a bit colder, could the plant compensate with hotter air temps somehow? 

Because my last grow I battled temps, even in late flower, above 80° but had no heat stress at all. I attributed it to the power of the rols notill grow style. But thinking back, my floor was also cold, probably 65° or colder.


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## foreverflyhi (Mar 29, 2015)

Beneficial Indigenous Micro-Organisms or BIM 

https://www.rollitup.org/t/beneficial-indigenous-micro-organisms-or-bim.762400/


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## Mohican (Mar 29, 2015)

I think sativas like hotter drier soil than do indicas.

68 degrees F is the ground temp once you get down far enough.


----------



## DonBrennon (Mar 29, 2015)

I'm about 100 pages behind reading this thread (along with a whole number of different info sources), so sorry if this has already been covered.

Has anyone tried fermenting sst2, I've seen it suggested on another website and think it could save me a whole lot of hassle if it works.
It's claimed to supercharge your sst so you can keep your fermented tea for long periods and use small diluted amounts.


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## DonBrennon (Mar 29, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Beneficial Indigenous Micro-Organisms or BIM
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/beneficial-indigenous-micro-organisms-or-bim.762400/


ha ha, sorry about the ghost post, it was lingering in my text box and got posted by mistake, thanks for the link though.


----------



## Forte (Mar 29, 2015)

Hello guys,

So, I read about CEC, and I don't get how much of the amendments I should put so that it has the ideal ratio. Can anyone help?
This is the recipe that I want to use, but just want to make sure if this has the ideal CEC. 
Thanks in advance.

Base Soil

1/3 Sphagnum Peat from Premier Peat or Alaska Peat
1/3 Aeration material (2 parts Perlite, 2 parts chunky coco, 1 part Vermiculite) Granite stonedust
1/3 Humus (1 part EWC, 1 part local / used topsoil, 1 part leaf litter, 1 part compost)

Per Cubic Foot of the Base Soil:

½ Cup DE
½ Cup Espoma Starter Plus
1 cup Charcoal
½ Cup Epsom Salt
4 cups Rock Powders (1X Glacial, 1X Bentonite, 1X Oyster Shell, 1X Basalt) 

½ Cup Neem Meal
1 Cup Crab Shell Meal
(1/2 cup)2 Cups Kelp Meal
2 Cups Fish Meal
2 Cups Fish Bone Meal
1 Cup Sul-Po-Mag
½ Cup Alfalfa

1.5 Cups Montmorillonite clay (azomite, bentonite, zeolite)
1.5 Cups Pyrophyllite Clay
1x Azomite (full range of minerals for the most part)
1x Gypsum (Calcium [elemental form Ca++] & Sulfur)
1x Limestone (Calcium Carbonate CaCO3)

Mix equal parts and then use 2 cups of the mix to 1 c.f. of potting soil


----------



## Forte (Mar 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I noticed that when I moved from bagged soil with synthetic nutes to rols and notill that they looked like plants that had grown outdoors. They smell as early as 3 or 4 weeks into veg (this still blows mind). One thing that my girl and I also noticed is that with my organic bud it's hard for us to build up a tolerance to it. After a month of heavy smoking daily of the same strain, we could still smoke a chillum and get very medicated. It also seems to last longer, the high I mean.


This. I bought my clones two weeks ago and they already smell a bit. Never experienced that with synthetic nutes. When I smoke hydro weed I build up a tolerance real fast, but when smoking organically grown weed, I don't. Another thing that I also noticed was that hydro weed loses it smell much faster than organically grown weed.


----------



## a senile fungus (Mar 29, 2015)

My last couple grows have been Gorilla Glue #4. I gave my neighbor a cut of it and he's been growing it too. He uses synthetics, I use organics. My glue is consistently stinkier and more potent. Even he remarked when I was trimming it, he said, "wtf new stinky ass strain is this now?!" when it was the same glue that we'd both been running for over a year. When I trim mine it reeks of skunk and chem and it assaults the sinuses and eyes. His just smells like strong glue smell. Mine literally irritates my eyes and clears my sinuses.

My smoke seems thicker, but smoother. His smoke is thinner and harsher. My buds are greasier and smellier, and cure into a sponge consistency. They can be squeezed and return to their original shape. His buds dry until brittle, and break apart when squeezed.

I think its a combo of growing and curing. But organics really brings out the full terpene and essential oil profile IMO. I'd love to lab test to verify my hypothesis.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 30, 2015)

I had a thought today at work. Someone was throwing away some palm leaves (Palm Sunday I guess) and I snagged them. My thought was that they would make a good mulch until my cover crop fully sprouts. I was going to take the scissors to them and get them cut up fairly small then add to my planters. 

Anyone have any thoughts on this or would advise against it?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 30, 2015)

Update on my magnesium deficent ladies. They've bounced back to probably 90% full health, if I had to quantify it.


I'm pretty sure I'm seeing the same deficiency in my Yunnan too as it's just now reaching the age that my other ladies showed their deficiency. Oddly enough it developed to the point that it has in almost just the last 24 - 36 hours. I noticed it about 3 days ago because its first and second set of true leaves died off exactly like my other ladies did, so I gave it a light epsom salt and aloe foliar. I was up potting her into a ~10 - 15 gallon planter when I noticed the deficiency so I'm not surprised that it has gotten worst even after I gave her the foliar; transplant shock, yeah? My question though is, does this look like a magnesium deficiency to the more experienced growers? I assume it is because it's, to a t, acting exactly like my other ladies did. I want to ask before I give her a full epsom salt watering.


----------



## Mohican (Mar 30, 2015)

Took a picture of my ROLS pot and saw a surprise:






Cheers,
Mo


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 30, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I like volcanic rock over rice hulls for no-tills, they never break down.
> Can you get any rotten wood chunks in there? really conditions the soil well, and the plants freakin love it, and you don't need to water as often.
> I can go a whole extra 12-24 hrs before watering in the soil I have, for the container I know what is typical watering schedule is for an established flowering plant, so I can tell the difference, the wood acts like mini sponges, without retaining too much water, and then it slowly leaches the water bac into the soil, kinda making the soil more "humid", the difference is visible for the roots. The entire smart pot is a solid rootball and that is a 12 or 15 gallon smartpot, with plants no larger than three feet.
> Some serious roots going on there...
> ...


I finally got warm enough weather to go find some rotting wood chunks! I have a huge concern with what creatures I could be introducing into my indoor garden though. Just from 5 minutes of breaking down the chunks by hand I've found grubs, larvae, millipedes centipedes, etc. I do have neem/karanja meal but would that do me any good if I added this wood to my soil? 
It looks much drier and less decomposed in this picture.


----------



## Mohican (Mar 31, 2015)

You can put it in a pot and cook it in a BBQ. A couple of hours at 300 should kill any bad stuff. Then just introduce some vermicompost or other beneficial microbes.


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## Mad Hamish (Mar 31, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I finally got warm enough weather to go find some rotting wood chunks! I have a huge concern with what creatures I could be introducing into my indoor garden though. Just from 5 minutes of breaking down the chunks by hand I've found grubs, larvae, millipedes centipedes, etc. I do have neem/karanja meal but would that do me any good if I added this wood to my soil?
> It looks much drier and less decomposed in this picture.
> View attachment 3384565


http://www.organicgardening.com/learn-and-grow/soil-solarization use this principle but just use bags


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 31, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> http://www.organicgardening.com/learn-and-grow/soil-solarization use this principle but just use bags


Couldn't I just set my oven to 150 and accomplish the same thing?


----------



## Mad Hamish (Mar 31, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Couldn't I just set my oven to 150 and accomplish the same thing?


I think so, just keep it covered and add teeeeny bits of moisture if it gets too dry. I think the big thing is sufficient time at those temps that is all really.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Mar 31, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Update on my magnesium deficent ladies. They've bounced back to probably 90% full health, if I had to quantify it.
> View attachment 3384375
> 
> I'm pretty sure I'm seeing the same deficiency in my Yunnan too as it's just now reaching the age that my other ladies showed their deficiency. Oddly enough it developed to the point that it has in almost just the last 24 - 36 hours. I noticed it about 3 days ago because its first and second set of true leaves died off exactly like my other ladies did, so I gave it a light epsom salt and aloe foliar. I was up potting her into a ~10 - 15 gallon planter when I noticed the deficiency so I'm not surprised that it has gotten worst even after I gave her the foliar; transplant shock, yeah? My question though is, does this look like a magnesium deficiency to the more experienced growers? I assume it is because it's, to a t, acting exactly like my other ladies did. I want to ask before I give her a full epsom salt watering.
> View attachment 3384382 View attachment 3384386 View attachment 3384390


Yes, I think it is the same deficiency. If I had to wager a guess some of your compost in the soil is still breaking down, or coco is particularly notoriois for this, composting IN the soil mix. Not the end of the world but it does lock up some Mg and also some Nitrogen. I had a low Mg bump on my third run with my first ROLS mix, came right soon enough though. I have been VERY careful and picky with my compost though. No way I can trust a bagged one eh. Way I see it, it all boils down to quality compost. Anyhow, early Mg def looks exactly like very slight N def. Look for leaf veins being prominent, that is Mg def starting. Easy to miss, can even look like great health.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 31, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Yes, I think it is the same deficiency. If I had to wager a guess some of your compost in the soil is still breaking down, or coco is particularly notoriois for this, composting IN the soil mix. Not the end of the world but it does lock up some Mg and also some Nitrogen. I had a low Mg bump on my third run with my first ROLS mix, came right soon enough though. I have been VERY careful and picky with my compost though. No way I can trust a bagged one eh. Way I see it, it all boils down to quality compost.


It dawned on me this morning what specifically my issue with dolomite lime is, I didn't pulverize it like I did my last batch of soil. So it's in my soil, just not bio-available. I keep giving her aloe and epsom salt foliars. My vermicompost from buildasoil will be here soon and all my ladies will get a top dress off it. Probably doesn't help that I use Coco too. 
I'm hoping the dolomite starts breaking down faster. Would a lactobacillus serum watering be helpful?


----------



## Mad Hamish (Mar 31, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> It dawned on me this morning what specifically my issue with dolomite lime is, I didn't pulverize it like I did my last batch of soil. So it's in my soil, just not bio-available. I keep giving her aloe and epsom salt foliars. My vermicompost from buildasoil will be here soon and all my ladies will get a top dress off it. Probably doesn't help that I use Coco too.
> I'm hoping the dolomite starts breaking down faster. Would a lactobacillus serum watering be helpful?


Nature's work horse, can't ever hurt!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Mar 31, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Nature's work horse, can't ever hurt!


I'll start a culture then!


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Mar 31, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I finally got warm enough weather to go find some rotting wood chunks! I have a huge concern with what creatures I could be introducing into my indoor garden though. Just from 5 minutes of breaking down the chunks by hand I've found grubs, larvae, millipedes centipedes, etc. I do have neem/karanja meal but would that do me any good if I added this wood to my soil?
> It looks much drier and less decomposed in this picture.
> View attachment 3384565


I see your concern, and don't take *my* experience as the gospel truth... but I didn't do a damn thing for the wood I used, just threw it in a bucket full of some dandelion/comfrey fermented tea, and then added to my soil, I did "age" it a lil by allowing it to sit in the soil for like 45 days or so.
Honestly when you think about it, anything that is eating rotting wood isn't gonna hurt your plants.
Course, one thing to consider is the soil mix I use pretty much keeps all the bugs down, almost miraculously.
To be sure i'd do what others have said, and bake em for a bit, just saying that I didn't.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 31, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I see your concern, and don't take *my* experience as the gospel truth... but I didn't do a damn thing for the wood I used, just threw it in a bucket full of some dandelion/comfrey fermented tea, and then added to my soil, I did "age" it a lil by allowing it to sit in the soil for like 45 days or so.
> Honestly when you think about it, anything that is eating rotting wood isn't gonna hurt your plants.
> Course, one thing to consider is the soil mix I use pretty much keeps all the bugs down, almost miraculously.
> To be sure i'd do what others have said, and bake em for a bit, just saying that I didn't.


I really considered just tossing it in with my soil, but that video of that giant millipede (was it a centipede?) eating that worm posted a few pages back really put me off to that idea lol. I'd probably be fine, but for peace of mine I'm going to bake it for a few hours at 150°f


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## greasemonkeymann (Mar 31, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I really considered just tossing it in with my soil, but that video of that giant millipede (was it a centipede?) eating that worm posted a few pages back really put me off to that idea lol. I'd probably be fine, but for peace of mine I'm going to bake it for a few hours at 150°f


I hear ya, I think that was a centipede.
My main thing for not sterilizing was because I wanted the various BIMs that were in there..


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 1, 2015)

Another update on the magnesium deficent ladies. They've all bounced back except the Yunnan. Dunno what her problem is. I gave them all an sst last night. I'll probably give them all another aloe foliar today as well.


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## Pattahabi (Apr 2, 2015)

Someone was asking about liming on another site. Thought I'd post this up from Coot.

_Okay – the first goals of wanting Calcium & Magnesium are good we’ll stipulate. Whether or not you need a mineral amendment to achieve that will be put aside.

Dolomite Lime is used in ‘the real world’ when a complete soil analysis has been done and now you have a complete overview of the element levels, CeC, etc. and it’s been established that lower levels exist for the long term on the Magnesium percentage. Even then, DL is applied maybe once every 4 or 5 years. The Magnesium in DL arrives as Magnesium Carbonate (MgCO3) but it’s a bit more complicated than that.

The reason that it is ‘slow acting’ is the molecular structure and if you were to hit even WikiPedia and looked at the molecular formula you can easily understand why this material is as slow acting as it is.

If in fact you need a Magnesium jolt then you’d be far better off using a mined mineral compound like Epsom Salts (Magnesium Sulfate) or Sul-Po-Mag (Sulphur, Potassium & Magnesium). The Magnesium in Epsom Salts is in its elemental form like Sul-Po-Mag.

The main straight liming agents, Limestone, Calcite (aka Agricultural Lime), Oyster shell powder and Crab meal are sources for Calcium Carbonate (CaCO3). All are pure Calcium Carbonate with the exception of Limestone which can have a Mg level between 2 – 3% depending on the specific mine, country of origin, etc.

When looking at the numbers on a Calcium Carbonate source you have to multiply the CaCO3 percentage by 0.375% and now you will have the elemental Calcium (Ca++) numbers.

Gypsum (Calcium Sulfate) is the preferred ‘liming’ agent in the PNW due to the acidic soils we deal with (the west side). That has to do with the adulteration of the clay platelets which no longer carry a pure negative charge (-) on the edges which bind along its edge with the center of adjacent clay particles and now you have clay compaction. All the Rototilling isn’t going to change that – ever.

So back to Dolomite Lime and why it’s used in commercial potting soils – certainly not used by professional nurseries other than for specific growing schedules like 3 – 5 years in containers. Even then, DL is part of a ‘liming mix’ that will include Gypsum (Calcium & Sulphur), Limestone or one of the shells meals. Bottom line is the DL is the least expensive because Calcium Carbonate is widely used in animal & human supplements – next time you’re in a store selling vitamins and supplements look at the label on the Calcium products – Calcium Carbonate.

Same for livestock and poultry. Calcium is a necessary part of their feed and DL isn’t part of that. DL has several industrial, manufacturing, etc. uses – it’s not the big deal in agriculture or horticulture like it is in the cannabis hobby gardening paradigm.

All of this assumes of course that the potting soil that you make is deficient in Calcium or Magnesium. It would be highly unlikely that given the compost and EWC you produce that you need additional Magnesium or Calcium. EWC are covered with a slime which is Calcium Carbonate from the worm’s digestive tract.

Calcium is not this elusive element that Goober wants you to believe it is

CC_


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Someone was asking about liming on another site. Thought I'd post this up from Coot.
> 
> _Okay – the first goals of wanting Calcium & Magnesium are good we’ll stipulate. Whether or not you need a mineral amendment to achieve that will be put aside.
> 
> ...


I remember reading this on icmag a few days ago when I was browsing their ROLS thread. Coot is a pretty smart dude.


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## Pattahabi (Apr 2, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I hear ya, I think that was a centipede.
> My main thing for not sterilizing was because I wanted the various BIMs that were in there..


I'm curious how many of the veteran organic growers are literally cooking their soil to kill 'the bad guys'? I'm going to guess few to none. When we build a strong organic soil we create an environment that is advantageous for the beneficials, and a real mofo for anything we don't want in there. I've grabbed various organic inputs from a variety of places outdoors. Other than a few fungus gnats, I've never had a problem.

Ok, coffee time lol!

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'm curious how many of the veteran organic growers are literally cooking their soil to kill 'the bad guys'? I'm going to guess few to none. When we build a strong organic soil we create an environment that is advantageous for the beneficials, and a real mofo for anything we don't want in there. I've grabbed various organic inputs from a variety of places outdoors. Other than a few fungus gnats, I've never had a problem.
> 
> Ok, coffee time lol!
> 
> P-


right you are sir, I figure if the mites from outside can get to my plants what, really, do I have to fear? Nothing worse than the three friggin different types of mites here... worse are those tiny ass red lookin ones.. those things are sorta slow compared to the two-spot, but damn they suck a plant dry faster..
We've talked about how the soil seems to keep the mites down, I had an unhappy tutankhamon that for whatever reason it was the only plant that didn't like my soil, so it looked pissed off for the last ten days, well, within 30 hrs it got webbed. Like badly, like goo-globs-of-mites-hangin-from-the-sunleaves-badly.
Just goes to show you exactly how much plant *health* has to do with suppressing mites. None of my other plants got mites, even the opposite plant growing in the *same smartpot *(I always do two diff varieties per container when i'm strain-huntin)
People forget that sometimes I think.
EDIT-- can you tell I already bet ya to the coffee, by that rambly ass response?, you were talking BIMs and I went off on spider mites....space cadet...


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 2, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> right you are sir, I figure if the mites from outside can get to my plants what, really, do I have to fear? Nothing worse than the three friggin different types of mites here... worse are those tiny ass red lookin ones.. those things are sorta slow compared to the two-spot, but damn they suck a plant dry faster..
> We've talked about how the soil seems to keep the mites down, I had an unhappy tutankhamon that for whatever reason it was the only plant that didn't like my soil, so it looked pissed off for the last ten days, well, within 30 hrs it got webbed. Like badly, like goo-globs-of-mites-hangin-from-the-sunleaves-badly.
> Just goes to show you exactly how much plant *health* has to do with suppressing mites. None of my other plants got mites, even the opposite plant growing in the *same smartpot *(I always do two diff varieties per container when i'm strain-huntin)
> People forget that sometimes I think.
> EDIT-- can you tell I already bet ya to the coffee, by that rambly ass response?, you were talking BIMs and I went off on spider mites....space cadet...


Gotta love that very amphetamine like response that coffee causes. If I remember right it's because it pings your adrenal gland like crazy. If I don't eat before my coffee I turn into a rage monster.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Someone was asking about liming on another site. Thought I'd post this up from Coot.
> 
> _Okay – the first goals of wanting Calcium & Magnesium are good we’ll stipulate. Whether or not you need a mineral amendment to achieve that will be put aside.
> 
> ...


I remember reading this before, and it's really good information, I really hate dolomite lime.
I think that a lot of times people _think_ they need magnesium, when it's actually something else. Magnesium is in a lot of the ingredients we use.
more often than not i'd say its an issue elsewhere, kinda how all the hydro guys think cal/mag is the answer to all the problems.
crab meal is like almost 1.5 % mag
neem is .5-1%
hell even kelp is like a quarter percent magnesium.
and that's not even talking about the easiest mag you can get, which is simply black strap molasses.
point is, magnesium is barely needed, it's not like it's a macro nutrient.


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## Pattahabi (Apr 2, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I remember reading this before, and it's really good information, I really hate dolomite lime.
> I think that a lot of times people _think_ they need magnesium, when it's actually something else. Magnesium is in a lot of the ingredients we use.
> more often than not i'd say its an issue elsewhere, kinda how all the hydro guys think cal/mag is the answer to all the problems.
> crab meal is like almost 1.5 % mag
> ...


I love this Coot quote:

_Let’s look at Chlorophyl in all forms……

Chlorophyll a – C55 H72 O5 N4 Mg – i.e. a single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll b – C55 H70 O6 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll c1 – C35 H30 O5 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll c2 – C35 H28 O5 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyll d – C54 H70 O6 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion
Chlorophyl f – C55 H70 O6 N4 Mg – single Magnesium ion

Can anyone explain the claim about ‘Magnesium hungry’ strains?

“I’m listening” – Dr. Frasier CC_


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## zonderkop (Apr 2, 2015)

Does anyone know how to contact Coot? 
I have new facebook page, in case anyone would like to like it: https://www.facebook.com/KickAssOrganics


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## Mohican (Apr 2, 2015)

Liked it!


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 3, 2015)

I checked my seedling box today and my Venus flytrap is flowering! All I did was give it some aloe vera. You'd be surprised at how many little bugs these guys can catch.


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## genuity (Apr 3, 2015)

You gonna chop that flower?

I just feed mine mealworms yesterday...and chopped the flower.


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## Pattahabi (Apr 3, 2015)

@Midwest Weedist Have you read how the venus flytrap senses it's prey, and why it doesn't close when water hits them? Fascinating imo.

P-


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 3, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> @Midwest Weedist Have you read how the venus flytrap senses it's prey, and why it doesn't close when water hits them? Fascinating imo.
> 
> P-


I actually just started reading up on them this morning and it's extremely fascinating! I plan on doing a few experiments to see what all I can do to trick it, eventually. I think I might start hand feeding it to see if I can get it too bulk up. 
The one thing I'm a bit worried about it the supposed dormancy period that they require yearly. Apparently you can skip it, but they'll die off eventually. I'd like to get some more so I could pollinate and gets seeds.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 3, 2015)

genuity said:


> You gonna chop that flower?
> 
> I just feed mine mealworms yesterday...and chopped the flower.


Nope! I'm going to risk it dying. I have it in a near perfect environment so I'm hoping with the aloe vera feedings and gnats that it'll be okay.


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## Pattahabi (Apr 3, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I actually just started reading up on them this morning and it's extremely fascinating! I plan on doing a few experiments to see what all I can do to trick it, eventually. I think I might start hand feeding it to see if I can get it too bulk up.
> The one thing I'm a bit worried about it the supposed dormancy period that they require yearly. Apparently you can skip it, but they'll die off eventually. I'd like to get some more so I could pollinate and gets seeds.


I think it's safe to say we are all a little bit of organic/plant nerds lol. I'd get some strange looks bringing this up in casual conversation on the street! This is from What a Plant Knows:


The amazing characteristics of the Venus flytrap led Charles Darwin,
who was among the first scientists to publish an in-depth study of the
plant and other carnivorous flora, to describe it as “one of the most
wonderful [plants] in the world.” Darwin’s interest in carnivorous plants
illustrates how naive curiosity can lead a trained scientist to
groundbreaking discoveries. Darwin begins his 1875 treatise
Insectivorous Plants in this way: “During the summer of 1860, I was
surprised by finding how large a number of insects were caught by the
leaves of the common sun-dew [plant] (Drosera rotundifolia) on a heath
in Sussex. I had heard that insects were thus caught, but knew nothing
further on the subject.” From knowing virtually nothing about the matter,
Darwin became the foremost expert on carnivorous plants, including the
Venus flytrap, in the nineteenth century, and indeed his work is still
referenced today.

We now know that the Venus flytrap feels its prey and senses if the
organism crawling around inside its trap is the right size to consume.
There are several large black hairs on the pink surface of the inside of
each lobe, and the hairs act as triggers that spring the trap closed. But one
hair being touched is not enough to spring the trap; studies have revealed
that at least two have to be touched within about twenty seconds of each
other. This ensures that the prey is the ideal size and won’t be able to
wiggle out of the trap once it closes. The hairs are extremely sensitive,
but they are also very selective. As Darwin noted in his book
Insectivorous Plants:

Drops of water, or a thin broken stream, falling from a
height on the filaments [hairs], did not cause the blades to
close … No doubt, the plant is indifferent to the heaviest
shower of rain … I blew many times through a fine
pointed tube with my utmost force against the filaments
without any effect; such blowing being received with as
much indifference as no doubt is a heavy gale of wind. We
thus see that the sensitiveness of the filaments is of a
specialized nature.

Even though Darwin described in great detail the series of events
leading to trap closure and the nutritional advantage of the animal protein
to the plants, he couldn’t come up with the mechanism of the signal that
differentiated between rain and fly and enabled the rapid imprisonment of
the latter. Convinced that the leaf was absorbing some meaty flavor from
the prey on the lobes, Darwin tested all types of proteins and substances
on the leaf. But these studies were for naught, as he could not induce trap
closure with any of his treatments.

His contemporary John Burdon-Sanderson made the crucial discovery
that explained the triggering mechanism once and for all. Burdon-
Sanderson, a professor of practical physiology at University College in
London and a physician by training, studied the electrical impulses found
in all animals, from frogs to mammals, but from his correspondence with
Darwin became particularly fascinated by the Venus flytrap. Burdon-
Sanderson carefully placed an electrode in the Venus flytrap leaf, and he
discovered that pushing on two hairs released an action potential very
similar to those he observed when animal muscles contract. He found that
it took several seconds for the electrical current to return to its resting
state after it had been initiated. He realized that when an insect brushes
up against the hairs inside the trap, it induces a depolarization that is
detected in both lobes.

Burdon-Sanderson’s discovery that pressure on two hairs leads to an
electrical signal that is followed by the trap closing was one of the most
important of his career and was the first demonstration that electrical
activity regulates plant development. But he could only hypothesize that
the electric signal was the direct cause of trap closure. More than one
hundred years later, Alexander Volkov and his colleagues at Oakwood
University in Alabama proved that the electric stimulation itself is the
causative signal for the trap’s closing. They applied a form of electric
shock therapy to the open lobes of the plant, and it caused the trap to
close without any direct touch to the trigger hairs. Volkov’s work and
earlier research in other labs also made it clear that the trap remembers if
only a single trigger hair has been touched, and then it waits until a
second hair is triggered before closing. Only very recently did this
research shed light on the mechanism that allows the Venus flytrap to
remember how many of its hairs have been triggered, which I’ll explore
in chapter six. Before we get to the ways in which plants remember, we
need to take some time with the connection between the electric signal
and the movement of the leaves.

Peace!

P-


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## Pattahabi (Apr 3, 2015)

Didn't want to spend time searching, but I think it might have been in this thread where people were talking about the aloe skin vs the gel. This talks about the gel.

P-


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## zonderkop (Apr 3, 2015)

found a couple links that dig into the science side of organics:
https://www.facebook.com/Modern.Canna
http://www.moderncannabist.com/knowledge


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 3, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I think it's safe to say we are all a little bit of organic/plant nerds lol. I'd get some strange looks bringing this up in casual conversation on the street! This is from What a Plant Knows:
> 
> 
> The amazing characteristics of the Venus flytrap led Charles Darwin,
> ...


Lol yes we are. I need to get my hands on this book. Or any book one them


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## Pattahabi (Apr 3, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Lol yes we are. I need to get my hands on this book. Or any book one them


I LOVE "What a Plant Knows"! Really thought provoking! Amazing bibliography, and $10.57?!

http://www.amazon.com/What-Plant-Knows-Field-Senses/dp/0374533881/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1428113137&sr=8-1

Peace!

P-


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## zonderkop (Apr 4, 2015)

Has anyone encountered the idea of Ocean fertilization? Adding iron increases phytoplankton growth, which leads to the ocean absorbing more atmospheric carbon. increasing sperm whale populations does the same thing: their shit naturally adds iron.


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## x713 (Apr 5, 2015)

so i finally found a 50lb bag of kelp meal here in texas!!! they want $130.I asked the lady if that included lube smh.its come out 10 bucks cheaper if i ship it from the right coast.


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## Pattahabi (Apr 5, 2015)

x713 said:


> so i finally found a 50lb bag of kelp meal here in texas!!! they want $130.I asked the lady if that included lube smh.its come out 10 bucks cheaper if i ship it from the right coast.


x713, that's just ridiculous, lube is right. The price from da hydro guys around here is $98 and I refuse to pay that. You have to have somewhere that sells livestock feed? Should be about $60 from a feed store. I think it's even a little less than that around here.

P-


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## x713 (Apr 5, 2015)

that was a feed store .Everytime i ask about kelp meal in big bags for feedstock i get crazy looks nobody has heard of that down here.Its like im speaking a different language


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## Joedank (Apr 5, 2015)

x713 said:


> that was a feed store .Everytime i ask about kelp meal in big bags for feedstock i get crazy looks nobody has heard of that down here.Its like im speaking a different language


thats why they grow longhorns on that brush down there . they are burly and can gain on nothing . kelp for livestock has been replaced by nutrient "licks" part of the macdonaldsizing the world . kinda like only buying bags of soil ....funny i am adding kelp, d.e. , and peat moss to my smaller attached greenhouse bed . ph is moving up a tic . so iam planting alfalfa as well. 
edit: the bed is 6X9 with a cut out . and has /had lasagna style food for the worms in there when i got the house excavated like a yard of casting from around the bottom/ thermal battery before i ammended last round ... no roots down there just worms and castings . any hay i add is pulled down so fast its fun.... did wood chips on top and they dissapeared too  my 5th season with this bed and it keeps getting better.

one love


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 5, 2015)

Went on a short walk today and the woods and noticed the mycelium network had started to reclaim this tree. Interesting stuff!


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## earthling420 (Apr 7, 2015)

I cant seem to get rid of these gnats that are slowly working on the bottom leaves I noticed. I have a good mulch on.top and great soil. Should I buy some mosquito dunks and water in or topdress? And buy the traps for the adults? I have tried adding a dry layer on top of soil but they seem to be in the dirt :/


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 7, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> I cant seem to get rid of these gnats that are slowly working on the bottom leaves I noticed. I have a good mulch on.top and great soil. Should I buy some mosquito dunks and water in or topdress? And buy the traps for the adults? I have tried adding a dry layer on top of soil but they seem to be in the dirt :/


Buy the dunks and powder them on top of your medium. Then take something like a shot glass, fill it with apple cider vinegar and leave on top of your planter. Replace the vinegar every couple of days or simply strain off any bugs and use it again.
I had a BAD infestation once, took 3 weeks of Bti and vinegaring to do the job


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## Joedank (Apr 7, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> I cant seem to get rid of these gnats that are slowly working on the bottom leaves I noticed. I have a good mulch on.top and great soil. Should I buy some mosquito dunks and water in or topdress? And buy the traps for the adults? I have tried adding a dry layer on top of soil but they seem to be in the dirt :/


misquito bits mixed into the soil is a great help . letting the plants dry out works too . rotaion of b bassania and neem/aloe/tamari works for me (b.bassinia) has a 4hr reentry interval one of the lowest in the biz for a fungus/adjuvant mix.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 7, 2015)

No more magnesium deficiencies!! Starting from the top left and moving right I've got a Scotts og, Yunnan, B52,below the B52 is another Scotts. The 4 smaller ones are a Goji og, Ghost og, Venom og, and one that I can't think of at the moment.
*Edit* The other one is a gorilla glue #4 cross!!

The Yunnan finally started to stretch a bit now that I've switched from 24/0 to 18/6. I'm really hoping she stretches enough to reach my screen lol


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 7, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> No more magnesium deficiencies!! Starting from the top left and moving right I've got a Scotts og, Yunnan, B52,below the B52 is another Scotts. The 4 smaller ones are a Goji og, Ghost og, Venom og, and one that I can't think off at the moment.
> 
> View attachment 3389988


hey man you have gnats? the lower leaves in the picture with your hand looks like you have some bugs possibly...


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 7, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hey man you have gnats? the lower leaves in the picture with your hand looks like you have some bugs possibly...


Magnesium deficiency paired with some wet soil, they're on the tail end of bouncing back. I've also had some some cold nights that have drooped a lot of fan leaves.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 7, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Magnesium deficiency paired with some wet soil, they're on the tail end of bouncing back. I've also had some some cold nights that have drooped a lot of fan leaves.


ah, gotcha, I was looking at the specks, the white specks... looks like bug damage from the pictures


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 7, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ah, gotcha, I was looking at the specks, the white specks... looks like bug damage from the pictures


Ahhh gotya. That's actually, I think, from my last aloe foliar. I should probably give them a good misting down tonight before lights out to clear off their stomas.


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## earthling420 (Apr 7, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Buy the dunks and powder them on top of your medium. Then take something like a shot glass, fill it with apple cider vinegar and leave on top of your planter. Replace the vinegar every couple of days or simply strain off any bugs and use it again.
> I had a BAD infestation once, took 3 weeks of Bti and vinegaring to do the job


Sweet thanks man! ill buy some today and try it out! 
I tried letting the soil dry out, but I feared the outside was getting too dry and the damned gnats were still in the soil just more hidden since it was getting dryer. cant wait to woop their asses! they trying to go for.my seedlings too mofos.


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## earthling420 (Apr 7, 2015)

Joedank said:


> misquito bits mixed into the soil is a great help . letting the plants dry out works too . rotaion of b bassania and neem/aloe/tamari works for me (b.bassinia) has a 4hr reentry interval one of the lowest in the biz for a fungus/adjuvant mix.


are you watering that solution in? or foliar? thanks!


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## earthling420 (Apr 7, 2015)

anyone else in fabric pots have a problem with big air pockets on the edges? should I fill em in withcastings or soil?


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 7, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Sweet thanks man! ill buy some today and try it out!
> I tried letting the soil dry out, but I feared the outside was getting too dry and the damned gnats were still in the soil just more hidden since it was getting dryer. cant wait to woop their asses! they trying to go for.my seedlings too mofos.


Good luck, they're a pain! Just don't do what I did and dump a shit ton of vinegar in your planter.. That was an interesting experience. They'll run rampant on seedlings too! I had a bunch get taken down a while ago before I figured out the issue. Now that I use Bti, karanja, and neem I never see more than one or two now though. One thing I suggest is to take your dunks and put one in your water source or in a couple gallons of water for your next full watering. The bacterium will spread through the water making it an extremely effective soil drench. 



earthling420 said:


> anyone else in fabric pots have a problem with big air pockets on the edges? should I fill em in withcastings or soil?


Yes, it's been a constant battle for me for almost 8 months with my fabric planters, albeit them only being 3 gallons. A cover crop will remedy the situation fairly well. I've toyed with the idea of adding some vermiculite around the edges in all of mine once they start to pull away from the side. If I don't have a cc down I have to mist down my soil with a waterbottle multiple times a day or else my rhizosphere completely dries up. 
I'll be switching to hard planters that I hand drill drainage holes in after this harvest. I hate digging up my planters and destroying the soil food network, but I HATE struggling with water in my arid apartment. It's actually why I end up over watering most times. 
Don't get me wrong, air planters are amazing, but they're a pain if you're not in 15+ gallon planters


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## Joedank (Apr 7, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> are you watering that solution in? or foliar? thanks!


foliar = 30ml neem to 5 ml protec(ksil) with 5ml tamari(wheatprotien) to 1 gallon water(ABOVE 75*) add last 10ml aloe


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## earthling420 (Apr 8, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Good luck, they're a pain! Just don't do what I did and dump a shit ton of vinegar in your planter.. That was an interesting experience. They'll run rampant on seedlings too! I had a bunch get taken down a while ago before I figured out the issue. Now that I use Bti, karanja, and neem I never see more than one or two now though. One thing I suggest is to take your dunks and put one in your water source or in a couple gallons of water for your next full watering. The bacterium will spread through the water making it an extremely effective soil drench.
> 
> 
> Yes, it's been a constant battle for me for almost 8 months with my fabric planters, albeit them only being 3 gallons. A cover crop will remedy the situation fairly well. I've toyed with the idea of adding some vermiculite around the edges in all of mine once they start to pull away from the side. If I don't have a cc down I have to mist down my soil with a waterbottle multiple times a day or else my rhizosphere completely dries up.
> ...


Thanks! lol I was thinking about that. Aw damn, that sucks. Nice, will do man. Thanks! Ill have to post a pic when I defeat them...
Wow long time. I have a cc lol extra dirt like 2 inches and some cc around edges actually worked pretty good now that I think about it. hm, maybe youd end up adding too much vermiculite if it kept pulling away? Damm, aint nobody got time for dat lol
I hearya man. Unless there is a huge difference in roots I might just switch back to plastic too. I feel your pain lol.


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 8, 2015)

Joedank said:


> foliar = 30ml neem to 5 ml protec(ksil) with 5ml tamari(wheatprotien) to 1 gallon water(ABOVE 75*) add last 10ml aloe


sweet thanks! think I might substitute some bokashi for the wheat protein though. since I have some


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## Pattahabi (Apr 8, 2015)

Joedank said:


> foliar = 30ml neem to 5 ml protec(ksil) with 5ml tamari(wheatprotien) to 1 gallon water(ABOVE 75*) add last 10ml aloe


That's a lot of neem to one gallon. I use 1-2 tsp (5-10ml) per gallon of neem oil, 5ml of protekt, and 1/8th tsp of 200x aloe. I find about 80-82 degrees to be the sweet spot for keeping things emulsified without getting chunky. 

Cooffeeee...... 

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 8, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> anyone else in fabric pots have a problem with big air pockets on the edges? should I fill em in withcastings or soil?


the trick is to pull on the edges when you transplant, water the edges first and it'll "fill" in a lil bit, one of the reasons I prefer some legumes growing in the soil before my cannabis gets in the container, keeps the smartpot more rigid, kinda gives it some structure, so to speak.


----------



## Mohican (Apr 8, 2015)

I just keep topping them off and if it gets bad I just dip the pots in a tub of water to soak them instead of watering from the top.


----------



## Joedank (Apr 8, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> That's a lot of neem to one gallon. I use 1-2 tsp (5-10ml) per gallon of neem oil, 5ml of protekt, and 1/8th tsp of 200x aloe. I find about 80-82 degrees to be the sweet spot for keeping things emulsified without getting chunky.
> 
> Cooffeeee......
> 
> P-


many test in my own life with a mag glass have shown it is the only amount that actuall kills bugs by smothering . witch is needed, for me in my life raising 25-50 other varietels of veg and keeping citrus indoors ina yearround solar ghouse. its also the reccomenned rate for horticulture use one oz per gallon. 5ml per gallon is my soil drench 
most books i read on horticultre reccomend 2% neem solution witch is 75ml per gallon highly phototoxic....mine is only a little phototoxic ..
i also spray 3/4c D.E. to one gallon water.. with a mask...https://books.google.com/books?id=eRKYAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA472&dq=how+much+neem+to+smother+pests&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IeslVafIL4PooATD4YGoAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=how much neem to smother pests&f=false


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## Pattahabi (Apr 8, 2015)

Joedank said:


> many test in my own life with a mag glass have shown it is the only amount that actuall kills bugs by smothering . witch is needed, for me in my life raising 25-50 other varietels of veg and keeping citrus indoors ina yearround solar ghouse. its also the reccomenned rate for horticulture use one oz per gallon. 5ml per gallon is my soil drench
> most books i read on horticultre reccomend 2% neem solution witch is 75ml per gallon highly phototoxic....mine is only a little phototoxic ..
> i also spray 3/4c D.E. to one gallon water.. with a mask...https://books.google.com/books?id=eRKYAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA472&dq=how much neem to smother pests&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IeslVafIL4PooATD4YGoAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=how much neem to smother pests&f=false


With all respect, I say if it works for you, run with it. I know with my current set up, I'd have some serious adverse effects at that ratio. So maybe if someone is not use to using emulsified neem, start off with a lower dosage and work up. In my experience it's best to hit them every 3 days for 3-4 sprayings. At 1-2tsp of neem per gallon, that wipes them out of my garden. (I also spray at lights out).

I need to stop rambling, I just cleaned the bong and I think I got too excited.



P-


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 9, 2015)

Outdoor soon to be transplanted into 40gallons


----------



## foreverflyhi (Apr 9, 2015)

Don't ask about the shity screen.... (before) 






These ladies spoke to me. They told me they refuse to be tied down, they want to be free, so I listened. (real men are feminist)
(after)


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 9, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Outdoor soon to be transplanted into 40gallons


I'm so jealous of all you growers who can keep their plants on their patio =/
They look fantastic by the way!


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 9, 2015)

I noticed something the other day when I was at another growers place. My soil is much heavier than bagged soil is, by far. When my soil is almost done dry it weighs as much as a fox farm bagged soil does a few hours after watering. 
Anyone else notice this?


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## hyroot (Apr 9, 2015)

mines heavy too. Those bagged soils are mostly peat and perlite. Very little nutes and little to no compost and castings. I have 2 10 gal pots about 2 months old. They got completely dried out. They're still pretty heavy. When wet they're very heavy. Still able to pickup and carry. Still heavy.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 9, 2015)

hyroot said:


> mines heavy too. Those bagged soils are mostly peat and perlite. Very little nutes and little to no compost and castings. I have 2 10 gal pots about 2 months old. They got completely dried out. They're still pretty heavy. When wet they're very heavy. Still able to pickup and carry. Still heavy.


It just boggled my mind a bit because I don't remember them being that light. I went to lift up my friends 7 Gallon planter with a 3 footer in flower thinking it would be heavy like mine and I almost threw it into his light lol


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## Joedank (Apr 9, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I noticed something the other day when I was at another growers place. My soil is much heavier than bagged soil is, by far. When my soil is almost done dry it weighs as much as a fox farm bagged soil does a few hours after watering.
> Anyone else notice this?


yea casting weigh alot, local screened rock / rice hulls are so much better than perlite in the long run. they dont float away and dont leak aluminum too...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 9, 2015)

Joedank said:


> yea casting weigh alot, local screened rock / rice hulls are so much better than perlite in the long run. they dont float away and dont leak aluminum too...


Whoa, aluminum in Perlite!? What?! That's something I haven't heard yet.. Glad I use rice hulls, biochar, and lava rock.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 9, 2015)

Joedank said:


> yea casting weigh alot, local screened rock / rice hulls are so much better than perlite in the long run. they dont float away and dont leak aluminum too...


Did some digging on perlite and found out what it actually is. 

"Perlite is essentially an amorphous, hydrated glassy volcanic rock of rhyolitic composition, consisting primarily of fused sodium potassium aluminum silicate."

I couldn't find anything on the break down of perlite / leaching of aluminum. But I definitely can see how that's possible given its chemical composition.


----------



## Joedank (Apr 9, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Did some digging on perlite and found out what it actually is.
> 
> "Perlite is essentially an amorphous, hydrated glassy volcanic rock of rhyolitic composition, consisting primarily of fused sodium potassium aluminum silicate."
> 
> I couldn't find anything on the break down of perlite / leaching of aluminum. But I definitely can see how that's possible given its chemical composition.


from reasearch gate:

contrary to the trend for cations, decreased as ionic strength increased. Caution is advised when new perlite used as a growth substrate is maintained below pH 5, because the Al concentration could exceed toxic levels. 
_pH-Dependent surface properties of perlite: Effects of plant growth - ResearchGate_. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/248167139_pH-Dependent_surface_properties_of_perlite_Effects_of_plant_growth [accessed Apr 9, 2015].


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## hyroot (Apr 9, 2015)

perlite is lava rock that is baked or heated at 1800° to expand.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 10, 2015)

I see cover crops mentioned a bunch in this thread, a few people even mention a slight few by name and their specific uses. I don't see a lot of mention (I could be wrong here) about what sort of plants work best as a cover crop for specific instances; like space requirements above soil, how deep their roots go in regards to planter depth, etc.

I like Dutch white clovers because of how low they typically stay and how well they take to being pruned often. But I recently got the cc combo pack from the buildasoil guys and it made me wonder if some of those plants might be best not added in certain instances.
Example: I'm limited on space so I keep my ladies short through various training methods, currently a multi strain Scrog. And I know some of those plants have a lot of vertical height and some have deeper roots than clovers by far, which could be an issue in some of my smaller 3 gallon planters.

Also, @greasemonkeymann didn't I see you mention legumes somewhere on here?


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 10, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I see cover crops mentioned a bunch in this thread, a few people even mention a slight few by name and their specific uses. I don't see a lot of mention (I could be wrong here) about what sort of plants work best as a cover crop for specific instances; like space requirements above soil, how deep their roots go in regards to planter depth, etc.
> 
> I like Dutch white clovers because of how low they typically stay and how well they take to being pruned often. But I recently got the cc combo pack from the buildasoil guys and it made me wonder if some of those plants might be best not added in certain instances.
> Example: I'm limited on space so I keep my ladies short through various training methods, currently a multi strain Scrog. And I know some of those plants have a lot of vertical height and some have deeper roots than clovers by far, which could be an issue in some of my smaller 3 gallon planters.
> ...


yea, I use a mix, honestly I couldn't tell you which are which, only that they are nitrogen fixing, looks to be four different types, some look similar to the "sweet pea" flower, and flower similarly too, but the "beans" look different more like the beans people eat.Some look more viney in their growing characteristics.
But really, you can just prune them like anything, if they get too big, just chop em and either bury the remains or throw it in your compost/vermicompost.
Here is a picture of one of them. This is a legume that has gone through a harvest already, and is growing alongside it's second cannabis lady. It was almost taller than the gorilla glue#4 that I had in there first, I flowered the GG#4 from clone so it was a short little lady. Now it's next to a Purple Paralysis.
the first pic is the bigger type legume (the aforementioned one), and the second pic is of my horsetail, but if you look closely you'll see behind the aloe that there is a little viney legume there too.
-------EDIT---- I somehow missed where you said you are using three gallon pots...
That's a tiny pot my brother... I see the yields go down a lil just from going from a 15 gal to a 12.
May want to think about putting multiple plants in one container? I have done up to four at a time. No problems and you have more soil in total.
two per 15 gal if they are small/young
4 per 25 gal if they are established. You gotta train them though, I call it "corner-training"
Each is trained to a "corner" so they appear sorta leaning when you look at them, that way they fill the square footprint that most lights create.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 10, 2015)

Joedank said:


> from reasearch gate:
> 
> contrary to the trend for cations, decreased as ionic strength increased. Caution is advised when new perlite used as a growth substrate is maintained below pH 5, because the Al concentration could exceed toxic levels.
> _pH-Dependent surface properties of perlite: Effects of plant growth - ResearchGate_. Available from: http://www.researchgate.net/publication/248167139_pH-Dependent_surface_properties_of_perlite_Effects_of_plant_growth [accessed Apr 9, 2015].


same can be said with azomite, but I think we can rest assure that if our soils get anywhere near 5.0 Ph, there won't be any live plants to suck up the aluminum anyways..


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## Joedank (Apr 10, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> same can be said with azomite, but I think we can rest assure that if our soils get anywhere near 5.0 Ph, there won't be any live plants to suck up the aluminum anyways..


1.)azomite is not used in HUGE amounts as a stand alone substrate. 
2.) perlite is damageing to our ecosystem due to the "float" factor 
3 why is it needed?
4.) "pockets" of organic soil can reach many varying ph's with "SCOBYS " forming around carbs.
5.) cannabis is a bioaccumulator the neem seed meal i add scares me enough i want all my perlite out of my garden after talking with my grandma with alzhimers. 
6.) mooomoooo
7.) average ph of OR. states soil = 5.7 the well water is quite low too....http://www.ipni.net/publication/bettercrops.nsf/0/2D03B3D343C281738525797D0061C037/$FILE/Better Crops 2010-4 p6.pdf
 With a pH around 4.0, sphagnum peat moss is a great soil amendment for acid-loving plants. source http://www.extension.iastate.edu/newsrel/2003/apr03/apr0304.html

sorry but it is a danger


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I see cover crops mentioned a bunch in this thread, a few people even mention a slight few by name and their specific uses. I don't see a lot of mention (I could be wrong here) about what sort of plants work best as a cover crop for specific instances; like space requirements above soil, how deep their roots go in regards to planter depth, etc.
> 
> I like Dutch white clovers because of how low they typically stay and how well they take to being pruned often. But I recently got the cc combo pack from the buildasoil guys and it made me wonder if some of those plants might be best not added in certain instances.
> Example: I'm limited on space so I keep my ladies short through various training methods, currently a multi strain Scrog. And I know some of those plants have a lot of vertical height and some have deeper roots than clovers by far, which could be an issue in some of my smaller 3 gallon planters.
> ...


i'm also a fan of clover as a cc...........i used crimson , white is probably better for containers

 can see them in the small 2 gal root trapper II........was under a ig par 100 induction, not my best work


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 11, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> yea, I use a mix, honestly I couldn't tell you which are which, only that they are nitrogen fixing, looks to be four different types, some look similar to the "sweet pea" flower, and flower similarly too, but the "beans" look different more like the beans people eat.Some look more viney in their growing characteristics.
> But really, you can just prune them like anything, if they get too big, just chop em and either bury the remains or throw it in your compost/vermicompost.
> Here is a picture of one of them. This is a legume that has gone through a harvest already, and is growing alongside it's second cannabis lady. It was almost taller than the gorilla glue#4 that I had in there first, I flowered the GG#4 from clone so it was a short little lady. Now it's next to a Purple Paralysis.
> the first pic is the bigger type legume (the aforementioned one), and the second pic is of my horsetail, but if you look closely you'll see behind the aloe that there is a little viney legume there too.
> ...


Oh I know, they're not by choice. I had a couple larger airplanters in the mail from Amazon but they sent the wrong size so I just returned the order and am going out tomorrow to get bigger solid plastic planters for the next round (plants are in a Scrog already). But, I'm taking a lot of cuts from the ones in 3 gallons so I don't think I'll see too terrible of a loss in yield. I'm contemplating just getting one massive 15+ container to go next to my 10 gallon hard planter as I'm in just a 2x4x5 tent, so space is limited.


I'm hoping the cc I got from buildasoil will be what I need. So far their products are top notch so I have high hopes. I also keep aloe in my containers. Have been thinking of planting a marigold or two as well from my grandfathers advice.


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 11, 2015)

Marigolds are for the bees......your grandfather gave you good advice for outdoor gardens


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 11, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Marigolds are for the bees......your grandfather have you good advice for outdoor gardens


No I don't think that's all they're good for, there's something in them that is good for the soil/plants I think. I'll have to Google around on my break in a bit.


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> No I don't think that's all they're good for, there's something in them that is good for the soil/plants I think. I'll have to Google around on my break in a bit.


Really?.......didn't know, I'm on my pos shit phone as well......gotta check it later


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 12, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> That's a lot of neem to one gallon. I use 1-2 tsp (5-10ml) per gallon of neem oil, 5ml of protekt, and 1/8th tsp of 200x aloe. I find about 80-82 degrees to be the sweet spot for keeping things emulsified without getting chunky.
> 
> Cooffeeee......
> 
> P-


badass thanks pattahabi  what amount of aloe would you reccomend if i dont have the powder? normal amount for a foliar?



greasemonkeymann said:


> the trick is to pull on the edges when you transplant, water the edges first and it'll "fill" in a lil bit, one of the reasons I prefer some legumes growing in the soil before my cannabis gets in the container, keeps the smartpot more rigid, kinda gives it some structure, so to speak.


ahh nice trick. I knew the pros had a solution lol i have legumes in my CC seed mix. how does alfalfa do as a CC?


Mohican said:


> I just keep topping them off and if it gets bad I just dip the pots in a tub of water to soak them instead of watering from the top.


unfortuantely i cant pick up my 10 gal planter and do that lol shit even a 7 gal would heavy as fuark soaked. or maybe im just a weak bitch  itd help if i had handles but i still wouldnt do it. im also in a small space and would have to manuever a distance to soak it and ya too much hassle and too risky, i cant afford to bump the tent or something and fuck everything up lol or once again maybe im just a weak bitch lmao


foreverflyhi said:


> Outdoor soon to be transplanted into 40gallons


woah just noticed the lights lol you run them during the day too or just when sun sets? nice garden! must be nice chiefing out there with the plants


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## earthling420 (Apr 12, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> i'm also a fan of clover as a cc...........i used crimson , white is probably better for containers
> 
> View attachment 3392958 can see them in the small 2 gal root trapper II........was under a ig par 100 induction, not my best work


you got a sprinkler in there? lol is that for foliars? 
those root trapper pots seem nice how do you like them? do they help with extreme temps pretty well?


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## earthling420 (Apr 12, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Oh I know, they're not by choice. I had a couple larger airplanters in the mail from Amazon but they sent the wrong size so I just returned the order and am going out tomorrow to get bigger solid plastic planters for the next round (plants are in a Scrog already). But, I'm taking a lot of cuts from the ones in 3 gallons so I don't think I'll see too terrible of a loss in yield. I'm contemplating just getting one massive 15+ container to go next to my 10 gallon hard planter as I'm in just a 2x4x5 tent, so space is limited.
> 
> 
> I'm hoping the cc I got from buildasoil will be what I need. So far their products are top notch so I have high hopes. I also keep aloe in my containers. Have been thinking of planting a marigold or two as well from my grandfathers advice.


im also in a 2x4 more height. 7ft. i would looove to get a bed put in. someday lol also thinking about if i dont do a bed just ditch the trays get bigger planters and blumats. no need for trays then.

i cant stand trying to post from my phone lol luckily im on a computer for now. otherwise everything i just posted prob wouldve taken an hour at least lol

ima put up a pic of my baby...


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## vitamin_green_inc (Apr 12, 2015)

So 2:7 or 10 gallon no-tills, 4 sq foot mod SCRoGs for each, 300-350 watts LED actual, All the bells and whistles included;I.e cover crop, silicate, neem oil....take clones 1 week before flower, have them rooted and vegging 1 week at the latest into flower and so 7-9 week veg I could expect to hit....lol....about a lb of some of the tastiest organically grown buds in the world? And just pull the plant, drop in the new one from a 3 gallon and flower out? Sound decent?


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 12, 2015)

vitamin_green_inc said:


> So 2:7 or 10 gallon no-tills, 4 sq foot mod SCRoGs for each, 300-350 watts LED actual, All the bells and whistles included;I.e cover crop, silicate, neem oil....take clones 1 week before flower, have them rooted and vegging 1 week at the latest into flower and so 7-9 week veg I could expect to hit....lol....about a lb of some of the tastiest organically grown buds in the world? And just pull the plant, drop in the new one from a 3 gallon and flower out? Sound decent?


lol I like how you laid out your post. not knocking you, it's just funny how it seems so simple yetyou alralready know it took a shit ton of planning and reading lol. I also am perplexed as to what to do when harvest time for no tills. I know most just chop the stem and leave the roots in there, but idk if you have to wait or can plant new bean/clone right away. Yanking the roots would damage the ecosystem in the soil.


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 12, 2015)

it looks like she is starting to show signs of mag def. Could it be the woodchips I have as a mulch? they're from BAS and Im also using BAS soil. I did also have gnats. I think since the BTI waterings and top dress they are dying off though. haven't seen any.. fingers crossed.


----------



## Joedank (Apr 12, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> No I don't think that's all they're good for, there's something in them that is good for the soil/plants I think. I'll have to Google around on my break in a bit.


marigolds (french ) repel nemetoads


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 12, 2015)

@earthling420 Yes, I would use the normal foliar rate. Depending on what kind of aloe you are using I would say 1-2oz per gallon.

Peace!

P-


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 12, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> @earthling420 Yes, I would use the normal foliar rate. Depending on what kind of aloe you are using I would say 1-2oz per gallon.
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


Sweet thanks man! umm I didnt even know there were different kinds of aloe lol I only know aloe and powder


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## Pattahabi (Apr 12, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Sweet thanks man! umm I didnt even know there were different kinds of aloe lol I only know aloe and powder


Some poeple use the liquid aloe products (lily of the desert/valley) comes to mind. You need to be careful of the preservatives/additives if using a store bought liquid. I use powder or fresh personally.

P-


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 12, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Some poeple use the liquid aloe products (lily of the desert/valley) comes to mind. You need to be careful of the preservatives/additives if using a store bought liquid. I use powder or fresh personally.
> 
> P-


ohhh I see what you mean now. I was thinking there were differentspecies of aloe lol ya mon, I keep it fresh


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 13, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> im also in a 2x4 more height. 7ft. i would looove to get a bed put in. someday lol also thinking about if i dont do a bed just ditch the trays get bigger planters and blumats. no need for trays then.
> 
> i cant stand trying to post from my phone lol luckily im on a computer for now. otherwise everything i just posted prob wouldve taken an hour at least lol
> 
> ima put up a pic of my baby...


You know I thought about doing a single bed for the entire thing and decided against it for some reason. Now I think it would have worked perfectly. Oh well lol.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 13, 2015)

Joedank said:


> marigolds (french ) repel nemetoads


That's what I found yesterday when I was looking around on Google. Maybe I'm wrong on it being Marigolds, but I thought it was them that accumulated something that soil loves. Idk, I'll keep looking.


----------



## Joedank (Apr 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> That's what I found yesterday when I was looking around on Google. Maybe I'm wrong on it being Marigolds, but I thought it was them that accumulated something that soil loves. Idk, I'll keep looking.


here you go on marigolds and root nemetoads management: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/ng045
some real reasearch


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Apr 13, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> you got a sprinkler in there? lol is that for foliars?
> those root trapper pots seem nice how do you like them? do they help with extreme temps pretty well?


airpump and airstones was to prevent hypoxic soil conditions and boost O2 to the roots==== came up with it while smoking with other growers.....did control test under both lights(induction & led), end results was that it didn't do shit compared to just plain LOS. stones probably clogged in the first week....lol

yeah i'm a fan of the root trapper II fabric pots, don't air prune which i like in winter runs, pricey though. outdoors is were they shine due to the reflective material, less evaporation .

going with 30 gal this test run...............shhh don't tell ...... it's a secret


----------



## Joedank (Apr 13, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> airpump and airstones was to prevent hypoxic soil conditions and boost O2 to the roots==== came up with it while smoking with other growers.....did control test under both lights(induction & led), end results was that it didn't do shit compared to just plain LOS. stones probably clogged in the first week....lol
> 
> yeah i'm a fan of the root trapper II fabric pots, don't air prune which i like in winter runs, pricey though. outdoors is were they shine due to the reflective material, less evaporation .
> 
> ...







air stones wont work but a larger bed with a "thermal battery" does here is a few of my thermal battery in my smaller bed. i have made a few of these (4) about to make one more in my big hooper..... the air is pulled from a hole in the ceiling that draws from the upstairs living space with a converted bathroom fan then boosted by a 4 inch inline near the bed for sound dampening as the greenhouse is attached to a living space...


----------



## PSUAGRO. (Apr 13, 2015)

Joedank said:


> air stones wont work but a larger bed with a "thermal battery" does here is a few of my thermal battery in my smaller bed. i have made a few of these (4) about to make one more in my big hooper..... the air is pulled from a hole in the ceiling that draws from the upstairs living space with a converted bathroom fan then boosted by a 4 inch inline near the bed for sound dampening as the greenhouse is attached to a living space...


Can you fix the pic link?........wanna see what your talking about

Thanks


----------



## Joedank (Apr 13, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Can you fix the pic link?........wanna see what your talking about
> 
> Thanks


http://rollitup.org/t/my-little-grow-thread.466704/page-2
post # 34 has some info on my version of thermal batterys


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 13, 2015)

vitamin_green_inc said:


> So 2:7 or 10 gallon no-tills, 4 sq foot mod SCRoGs for each, 300-350 watts LED actual, All the bells and whistles included;I.e cover crop, silicate, neem oil....take clones 1 week before flower, have them rooted and vegging 1 week at the latest into flower and so 7-9 week veg I could expect to hit....lol....about a lb of some of the tastiest organically grown buds in the world? And just pull the plant, drop in the new one from a 3 gallon and flower out? Sound decent?





earthling420 said:


> lol I like how you laid out your post. not knocking you, it's just funny how it seems so simple yetyou alralready know it took a shit ton of planning and reading lol. I also am perplexed as to what to do when harvest time for no tills. I know most just chop the stem and leave the roots in there, but idk if you have to wait or can plant new bean/clone right away. Yanking the roots would damage the ecosystem in the soil.


There are different methods to do that, but what I do is simply cut the harvested plant at the stem, and simply cut a place for the next plant, usually I have mine in half gallon plastic pots, so I cut a square hole that fits the container perfectly, then I mist the roots and apply myco to it and drop the lil lady in.
I do it the day of, or the day after I harvested the other plant, my theory is I want to keep the soilweb as alive as possibly.
And vitamin_green.. I do exactly what you described, take cuts right @ flower, takes about 10 days or so to root, then into a party cup, after 20 days, i transplant once into the half gallon, from there to my big smartpots. Minimum size i'd use for that method is at least a 7 gallon pot, preferably a 10 or even better a 12. Those are smartpots I'm talking about, if you like plastic i'd go no less than a 10 gallon.
I also like to give them about 15 days or so under a 16-18 hr day to have them fill in a lil, before flowering, but I have transplanted and flowered in the same week before... just gotta be careful.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> That's what I found yesterday when I was looking around on Google. Maybe I'm wrong on it being Marigolds, but I thought it was them that accumulated something that soil loves. Idk, I'll keep looking.


are you thinking of biodynamic accumulators?
dandelion, comfrey, nettles, etc?


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## zonderkop (Apr 13, 2015)

simplified and too small a pot, but it gets the idea across. AACTs and SSTs have lots of enzymatic activity to break down the ol' root ball.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 13, 2015)

Possibly 


greasemonkeymann said:


> are you thinking of biodynamic accumulators?
> dandelion, comfrey, nettles, etc?


----------



## Joedank (Apr 13, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> are you thinking of biodynamic accumulators?
> dandelion, comfrey, nettles, etc?


i like that you called the BIOdynamic accumulators. rudolf steiner would love that .
marigold root exuadates are GREAT for soil biota better than most . they repel bad(root knot nemetoads ect) and allow good to thrive..
Urtica dioica (nettel) rapes the land of N and P thats why they grow in fertile soils ....


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## x713 (Apr 13, 2015)

speaking of accumulators my comfrey are doing awesome they are about a year old and giving me a lot of leaf.it will have to do untill i find a cheaper source of kelp meal.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 14, 2015)

x713 said:


> speaking of accumulators my comfrey are doing awesome they are about a year old and giving me a lot of leaf.it will have to do untill i find a cheaper source of kelp meal.


Comfrey is an amazing plant! I want to see if I can grow a plant using solely my compost and a topdress of EWC and comfrey.
I just finished making a mobile comfrey planter, I have a 7 gallon smartpot that has a comfrey in it (rootbound too) and I cut three large holes in the bottom of the container, then I dug a hole in the side of my hill and filled it with some good soil, after about a month or so I should have some comfrey roots growing out of the bottom, then i'm going cut them and move the container off to a new spot. The roots will grow new plants soon after.
As much as i'd like to take credit for this idea, it's not mine, I read about it on another forum.
Damn good idea though.


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## earthling420 (Apr 14, 2015)

Joedank said:


> many test in my own life with a mag glass have shown it is the only amount that actuall kills bugs by smothering . witch is needed, for me in my life raising 25-50 other varietels of veg and keeping citrus indoors ina yearround solar ghouse. its also the reccomenned rate for horticulture use one oz per gallon. 5ml per gallon is my soil drench
> most books i read on horticultre reccomend 2% neem solution witch is 75ml per gallon highly phototoxic....mine is only a little phototoxic ..
> i also spray 3/4c D.E. to one gallon water.. with a mask...https://books.google.com/books?id=eRKYAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA472&dq=how much neem to smother pests&hl=en&sa=X&ei=IeslVafIL4PooATD4YGoAQ&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=how much neem to smother pests&f=false


Good shit. BAS also says 1 oz of neem to a gal. wih half tsp of agsil.
if I remember correctly, is a neem soil drench supposed to be a last resort? Doesn't it damage a little bit of micro herd?


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## earthling420 (Apr 14, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> You know I thought about doing a single bed for the entire thing and decided against it for some reason. Now I think it would have worked perfectly. Oh well lol.


lmao it's not too late, you could still do it  
Have you seen the square fabric pots? those would be good for maximizing space. 
I thought the fabric beds were cool but there isnt many sizes unfortunately. 
I wanna put a bed in my 2x2.5 also. 
sigh, gardener dreams lol


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## earthling420 (Apr 14, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> airpump and airstones was to prevent hypoxic soil conditions and boost O2 to the roots==== came up with it while smoking with other growers.....did control test under both lights(induction & led), end results was that it didn't do shit compared to just plain LOS. stones probably clogged in the first week....lol
> 
> yeah i'm a fan of the root trapper II fabric pots, don't air prune which i like in winter runs, pricey though. outdoors is were they shine due to the reflective material, less evaporation .
> 
> ...


Damn that's a bitch, after all that testing too. Stoners lol  
thats cool brotha, they seem like a heavy duty fabric pot.
Aw shit, bringin in the big dawg! gonna have yields for days lol


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## Joedank (Apr 14, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Good shit. BAS also says 1 oz of neem to a gal. wih half tsp of agsil.
> if I remember correctly, is a neem soil drench supposed to be a last resort? Doesn't it damage a little bit of micro herd?


never asked the herd i am sure its not as good as neem seed meal in the mix or in the earthworm box.
but it really works , some folks call it systemic , but the paper that it was in has not been peer reviewed yet lol.

neem at 1oz per gal is SLIGHTY phototoxic so keep the lights off till dry and emulsify well. IMO


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## earthling420 (Apr 14, 2015)

I can store the neem/protec/aloe solution to use later right?


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## earthling420 (Apr 14, 2015)

Joedank said:


> never asked the herd i am sure its not as good as neem seed meal in the mix or in the earthworm box.
> but it really works , some folks call it systemic , but the paper that it was in has not been peer reviewed yet lol.
> 
> neem at 1oz per gal is SLIGHTY phototoxic so keep the lights off till dry and emulsify well. IMO


lol I have neem and karanja in my soil but doesn't seem to be working? so if the foliars don't work, im drenching.
lol what's that mean? plants dont absorb it and keep from foliars?
sorry, bit confused about the systemic thing. and I looked the word up too...
Ohh I see. I feel better now bout using 1 oz. especially if it'll get rid of em for good after.
Ya I think it was way back in this thread someone was saying neem can kill goodand bad things if too much is used..

So can one technically foliar with lights on as long as there's no neem? Iknow ppl talked about "burn spots" is that confirmed?


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## Joedank (Apr 14, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> lol I have neem and karanja in my soil but doesn't seem to be working? so if the foliars don't work, im drenching.
> lol what's that mean? plants dont absorb it and keep from foliars?
> sorry, bit confused about the systemic thing. and I looked the word up too...
> Ohh I see. I feel better now bout using 1 oz. especially if it'll get rid of em for good after.
> ...


good info here on neem https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=290297
i have researched a omri cert. product called calcium-25 it is applied in full sun at 77+ deg! < was the first i heard of that !
systemic means taken in by the whole plant . now 5ml of neem in 2.5ml protec(ksil) in warm (75-85) water works wonders for my life . but if you have any reservations try it on one plant . if you see anything weird cut it out there are better ways to fight (or not) bugs .
the debateable systemic neem study> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/026121949500026I


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## Pattahabi (Apr 15, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> I can store the neem/protec/aloe solution to use later right?


No. Use it pretty much immediately.

P-


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## x713 (Apr 15, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Comfrey is an amazing plant! I want to see if I can grow a plant using solely my compost and a topdress of EWC and comfrey.
> I just finished making a mobile comfrey planter, I have a 7 gallon smartpot that has a comfrey in it (rootbound too) and I cut three large holes in the bottom of the container, then I dug a hole in the side of my hill and filled it with some good soil, after about a month or so I should have some comfrey roots growing out of the bottom, then i'm going cut them and move the container off to a new spot. The roots will grow new plants soon after.
> As much as i'd like to take credit for this idea, it's not mine, I read about it on another forum.
> Damn good idea though.


i feed my comfrey organic chicken manure from bas for fun and get leaf matter quicker!,they also drink lots of water. i have 3 plants but plan to get loads for im addicted to them.i also have tons of roach poop that i compost i need to built a wooden stand for my mega worm inn but been to lazy and not good with my hands and building things from scratch


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 15, 2015)

x713 said:


> i feed my comfrey organic chicken manure from bas for fun and get leaf matter quicker!,they also drink lots of water. i have 3 plants but plan to get loads for im addicted to them.i also have tons of roach poop that i compost i need to built a wooden stand for my mega worm inn but been to lazy and not good with my hands and building things from scratch


roach poop huh?
interesting.. do you raise them for chickens?
If so, grind up a cup of dead bugs per cubic foot of soil, it's a great source of chitin, calcium, as well as phosphorus and nitrogen.
I have found that my comfrey is a bit of a cannibal... it loves comfrey tea and topdresses


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## x713 (Apr 15, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> roach poop huh?
> interesting.. do you raise them for chickens?
> If so, grind up a cup of dead bugs per cubic foot of soil, it's a great source of chitin, calcium, as well as phosphorus and nitrogen.
> I have found that my comfrey is a bit of a cannibal... it loves comfrey tea and topdresses


i raise 3 different roaches as feeder roaches for some of my reptile and tarantulas.i feed them fruits and veggies they eat better then me sometimes Im loaded with molted shells and poo.i need to get some chickens would be awesome or maybe a turkey


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## Joedank (Apr 15, 2015)

x713 said:


> i raise 3 different roaches as feeder roaches for some of my reptile and tarantulas.i feed them fruits and veggies they eat better then me sometimes Im loaded with molted shells and poo.i need to get some chickens would be awesome or maybe a turkey


molted shell ammedmed soil VS ground up dead ones soil ....judged by yeild and soil biota smear ....sounds neat to me


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## Pattahabi (Apr 15, 2015)

*Cockroach Composting*

P-


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

Anyone else noticing a drop off in yield with no-till?

When I first started making my own soil I would dump it out at the end of every cycle, add a bit of fresh soil, re-amend, wet it down with a compost tea, and let it sit for a few weeks. I switched a while back to the no-till, and now I'm back to dumping the soil. The plants look great, but I can't seem to get the same yield when running no-till. I've tried bigger pots, smaller pots, fabric pots ..... and nothing seems to work as well as just dumping the soil and re-using it from there.

I'm guessing this is a compaction issue and not as much oxygen is getting to the root zone. Any thoughts?


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Anyone else noticing a drop off in yield with no-till?
> 
> When I first started making my own soil I would dump it out at the end of every cycle, add a bit of fresh soil, re-amend, wet it down with a compost tea, and let it sit for a few weeks. I switched a while back to the no-till, and now I'm back to dumping the soil. The plants look great, but I can't seem to get the same yield when running no-till. I've tried bigger pots, smaller pots, fabric pots ..... and nothing seems to work as well as just dumping the soil and re-using it from there.
> 
> I'm guessing this is a compaction issue and not as much oxygen is getting to the root zone. Any thoughts?


I know your on top of your game, but didn't see u mention strains. Could this be the issue?


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Anyone else noticing a drop off in yield with no-till?
> 
> When I first started making my own soil I would dump it out at the end of every cycle, add a bit of fresh soil, re-amend, wet it down with a compost tea, and let it sit for a few weeks. I switched a while back to the no-till, and now I'm back to dumping the soil. The plants look great, but I can't seem to get the same yield when running no-till. I've tried bigger pots, smaller pots, fabric pots ..... and nothing seems to work as well as just dumping the soil and re-using it from there.
> 
> I'm guessing this is a compaction issue and not as much oxygen is getting to the root zone. Any thoughts?


I've heard that very same complaint from an organic grower in Michigan. I don't have enough personal experience on the method to really speak on longterm.


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> I know your on top of your game, but didn't see u mention strains. Could this be the issue?


I don't think so FFH. I've got 9 different strains on the go right now and they have all reacted the same. Nice and healthy in every way, but they just are not getting as big. I'd say the yield has dropped off by 25%. Switched back to dumping/re-amending the soil and they are back to the bigger plants that I'm used to. So strange. Really has me scratching my head. I guess I could cut back on the ewc and add more aeration when I make the soil...??

edit: 5 of these strains I've had around for a while, so I know what they should yield.


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## Mad Hamish (Apr 16, 2015)

If it doesn't work just stop doing it. No ambiguity there. Maybe no till just doesn't suit the way you like to grow.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

x713 said:


> i raise 3 different roaches as feeder roaches for some of my reptile and tarantulas.i feed them fruits and veggies they eat better then me sometimes Im loaded with molted shells and poo.i need to get some chickens would be awesome or maybe a turkey


I use crushed "chicken feed" it's nothing but dried mealworms and crickets,
I started a thread about it a while back, works well for me.


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## foreverflyhi (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't think so FFH. I've got 9 different strains on the go right now and they have all reacted the same. Nice and healthy in every way, but they just are not getting as big. I'd say the yield has dropped off by 25%. Switched back to dumping/re-amending the soil and they are back to the bigger plants that I'm used to. So strange. Really has me scratching my head. I guess I could cut back on the ewc and add more aeration when I make the soil...??
> 
> edit: 5 of these strains I've had around for a while, so I know what they should yield.


Trying upping your aeration, sounds like maybe lacking oxygen. consider adding more rock dust? Mychos?


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## Joedank (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I don't think so FFH. I've got 9 different strains on the go right now and they have all reacted the same. Nice and healthy in every way, but they just are not getting as big. I'd say the yield has dropped off by 25%. Switched back to dumping/re-amending the soil and they are back to the bigger plants that I'm used to. So strange. Really has me scratching my head. I guess I could cut back on the ewc and add more aeration when I make the soil...??
> 
> edit: 5 of these strains I've had around for a while, so I know what they should yield.


i used to start with the whole bottom of ten gallons with a layer of lava rock... but no unless they get real sun the containers dont cycle nutes as fast so growth for heavy feeders is lacking. using a paint striainer on my vermi teas helped ALOT. they closed pores in my soil fast . there are many studies on unstrained vs strained ve topdressing. 
strained tea and NO top dressing GASP are the way to go in small container gardenig IMHO...


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i used to start with the whole bottom of ten gallons with a layer of lava rock... but no unless they get real sun the containers dont cycle nutes as fast so growth for heavy feeders is lacking. using a paint striainer on my vermi teas helped ALOT. they closed pores in my soil fast . there are many studies on unstrained vs strained ve topdressing.
> strained tea and NO top dressing GASP are the way to go in small container gardenig IMHO...


Hmm. I top dress the shit out of my containers (ewc) so that could be the issue. I thought switching to fabric pots would help things out, but it doesn't seem to be doing the trick.

Maybe I'll try one with no top dress and see if that works.


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Trying upping your aeration, sounds like maybe lacking oxygen. consider adding more rock dust? Mychos?


I'm pretty heavy handed with the rock dusts. 3-4 cups per cf. Mychos aren't skimped on either.


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## Joedank (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Hmm. I top dress the shit out of my containers (ewc) so that could be the issue. I thought switching to fabric pots would help things out, but it doesn't seem to be doing the trick.
> 
> Maybe I'll try one with no top dress and see if that works.


make what you would dress with into strained teas 1ml of sucanate or molasses and 1oz of casting per gallon is a good start for my small ones ..... sometimes i add dusts and such too the worm bin... drywall tooo...effing hillbilly


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Anyone else noticing a drop off in yield with no-till?
> 
> When I first started making my own soil I would dump it out at the end of every cycle, add a bit of fresh soil, re-amend, wet it down with a compost tea, and let it sit for a few weeks. I switched a while back to the no-till, and now I'm back to dumping the soil. The plants look great, but I can't seem to get the same yield when running no-till. I've tried bigger pots, smaller pots, fabric pots ..... and nothing seems to work as well as just dumping the soil and re-using it from there.
> 
> I'm guessing this is a compaction issue and not as much oxygen is getting to the root zone. Any thoughts?


I haven't seen this yet, but it doesn't surprise me, and after all, our end goal is to simply grow great organic herb so if that entails dumping, re-amending and re-mixing, well... so be it, right?
Here is a pic of a beefy purple paralysis that never stopped foxtailing... after 90 days I pulled it anyways, typically I would never ever pull a plant early, but I sorta have a logjam of strains behind this beefy gal.
She got a little haggard being so damn old, but, she still has some serious weight.. and this is out of a 7 gallon, normally I only run 12 and 15s, but I wanted to see what she could do..
My camera sucks, sorry about that fellas.
look at the corkscrew foxtails though, kept throwing up fresh pistils..
that's the second run in that soil, no amending other than a comfrey topdress and a couple dandelion/comfrey teas.
Second run in a 7 gallon though, not bad for the weight, but as much as i'd love to take credit for that, I think that lady is just a fattie.
it's weird I have seen four different phenos for the purple paralysis, and this one is five times bigger than the rest, the others I am lucky to get 36 grams off each.


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

Joedank said:


> make what you would dress with into strained teas 1ml of sucanate or molasses and 1oz of casting per gallon is a good start for my small ones ..... sometimes i add dusts and such too the worm bin... drywall tooo...effing hillbilly


You add drywall to your worm bin? Can't say I've heard that before.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 16, 2015)

@st0wandgrow What planter sizes/veg times do you run? 
I have this theory about planter sizes and growth periods that could possibly explain the lack in yield.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> You add drywall to your worm bin? Can't say I've heard that before.


well shit, it is made from gypsum, so I guess that is a good way to get it.. if you can't find it..
I'd be worried about any flame-retardent chems or whatever they use to bind it with..
I'll be damned though...good idea.
I think?


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> @st0wandgrow What planter sizes/veg times do you run?
> I have this theory about planter sizes and growth periods that could possibly explain the lack in yield.


It depends. I've been using 10 gallon fabric pots lately, but I will use a 7 gallon plastic pot for a couple strains that don't need so much leg room. Love to hear your theory though.....

edit: Forgot veg time. They get 2-3 weeks in a small 1/2 gal container, then 2-3 weeks in the final 7-10 gal container. Usually 5'ish weeks total


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> It depends. I've been using 10 gallon fabric pots lately, but I will use a 7 gallon plastic pot for a couple strains that don't need so much leg room. Love to hear your theory though.....


what do you re-amend with when you dump and till?
Anything you added that you normally wouldn't?
I think you may be onto something with your aeration theory.
I have so freakin much aeration in my mix, probably close to 50%. Rotten wood, perlite, pumice, biochar, volcanic rock, small strips of coco (actually work pretty well on keeping the soil from compacting if you use them vertically)


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> It depends. I've been using 10 gallon fabric pots lately, but I will use a 7 gallon plastic pot for a couple strains that don't need so much leg room. Love to hear your theory though.....
> 
> edit: Forgot veg time. They get 2-3 weeks in a small 1/2 gal container, then 2-3 weeks in the final 7-10 gal container. Usually 5'ish weeks total


that's almost exactly the same thing I do for vege.
Clone to party cup, to half gal, to final smartpot


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> It depends. I've been using 10 gallon fabric pots lately, but I will use a 7 gallon plastic pot for a couple strains that don't need so much leg room. Love to hear your theory though.....


 I think planter size may be one factor to your loss of yield. If you're on Instagram go check out MountainOrganics feed (It's Coot from Icmag, I think) he runs 200 gallon beds.
It's a very incomplete theory as I'm still educating myself on the sciences of soils and plants. But essentially it's because we (I saw we become I and a lot of others) try to squeeze too much out of too little of soil, which is why I feel dumping acts / ssts is so necessary for a high rate of success in the no-till style of cannabis cultivation where small planters are used. Aside from feeling that our soil beds need to be much, much larger than most styles use (3 - 15 gallons) I feel that our soil also needs a "resting" period, similar to a winter month.

Do you use acts? Maybe if you can keep your micro heard at its capacity at all times you could avoid the loss in yield?


Another question I have that I've debated in my head for a while now is and maybe this is a bit philosophical, but what's more important to you, the amount of flower a plant yields or the capacity of its affect?
Obviously you don't want too little that it's not worth the cost of growing but at the same time what good does a massive amount of bud do for you if you could get the same potency from bud that has 25% less plant matter? Obviously weight doesn't directly equate to potency or potential affects, but I feel there is a strong correlation in the fight to have a high yield and the often lacking affects I find in plants grown to achieve said high yield. Maybe, just maybe, we shouldn't be chasing the numbers. But hey, I don't really know that much anyways, so what do I know lol.


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> what do you re-amend with when you dump and till?
> Anything you added that you normally wouldn't?
> I think you may be onto something with your aeration theory.
> I have so freakin much aeration in my mix, probably close to 50%. Rotten wood, perlite, pumice, biochar, volcanic rock, small strips of coco (actually work pretty well on keeping the soil from compacting if you use them vertically)


Nothing unusual. Kelp, neem, alfalfa, crabshell all at 1/2 the amount initially used. Some fresh soil, a lil spm, and some aeration all added in equal parts.

I really think this is an aeration issue. I'm forced to use rice hulls as I can't find pumice or smaller lava rock to save my life, and I refuse to have it shipped. I think the hulls degrade a bit and don't serve their purpose so well over time. When I dump and re-amend I'm getting fresh hulls and fresh soil throughout the container so that fluffs it up a bit, which I obviously can't do with no-till.


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## zonderkop (Apr 16, 2015)

hey guys, love seeing this board still being so active and helpful. i just wanted to say my print book is now on amazon, in case you wanted to get a physical copy. it's also sold by bookcrafters.

thanks for everyone's help. cheers to cootz, headtreep, cann, and rustymohican.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Nothing unusual. Kelp, neem, alfalfa, crabshell all at 1/2 the amount initially used. Some fresh soil, a lil spm, and some aeration all added in equal parts.
> 
> I really think this is an aeration issue. I'm forced to use rice hulls as I can't find pumice or smaller lava rock to save my life, and I refuse to have it shipped. I think the hulls degrade a bit and don't serve their purpose so well over time. When I dump and re-amend I'm getting fresh hulls and fresh soil throughout the container so that fluffs it up a bit, which I obviously can't do with no-till.


ahhh, I bet you are right on, I used vermiculite for yrs back in the day, and I saw a little compaction on those even, so I imagine rice hulls would be even worse.
What I would do is maybe see if you can find some natural landscaping lava-rock (homedepot, orchard supply, etc) and then smash those little bastards up.
Just make sure they didn't treat the rocks with something.
I stumbled on a pretty effective way to keep aeration pretty uniform, I had a bunch of the coco-hair, the kind they use to line planters with, and I cut it into like 6 inch strips, 6 inches by one inchs, and I put them in the soil vertically and kinda "spiraled" it away from the center, and that smartpot seems to do better than the others, as far as watering and such, and the soil seems to readily take water better, could be all in my head...
the past four or five grows I have really been noticing that different types and amounts of aeration really seem to effect my results, and so far, more is better... Provided the aeration you use holds and retains both water and oxygen.
I am always tinkering with different variables though.
Almost every run I am trying something new.
I recently have been toying with the idea of saving my beard shavngs and hair for amendments to my soil..
Human hair is a super super slow release of high nitrogen, if I remember correctly it's almost the same as feather meal, minus the arsenic...


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think planter size may be one factor to your loss of yield. If you're on Instagram go check out MountainOrganics feed (It's Coot from Icmag, I think) he runs 200 gallon beds.
> It's a very incomplete theory as I'm still educating myself on the sciences of soils and plants. But essentially it's because we (I saw we become I and a lot of others) try to squeeze too much out of too little of soil, which is why I feel dumping acts / ssts is so necessary for a high rate of success in the no-till style of cannabis cultivation where small planters are used. Aside from feeling that our soil beds need to be much, much larger than most styles use (3 - 15 gallons) I feel that our soil also needs a "resting" period, similar to a winter month.
> 
> Do you use acts? Maybe if you can keep your micro heard at its capacity at all times you could avoid the loss in yield?
> ...


Some good thoughts Midwest. I can't disagree much on that. For me yield means only one thing: Keeping my patients supplied. I try to stay within the boundaries of our state laws, so I am growing fewer plants than I otherwise would like to. So those plants have to produce a certain amount, on a certain schedule to keep everyone happy. As it stands I've got it down pretty good, but I don't want to risk running short and having to tell a cancer patient that I don't have enough meds for her this month.

As for the correlation between yield and potency, I think there could be something to that. Almost without exception, the plants that have the best effect and the best terpine profile are the light yielding variety's. Very rarely do I find a big producer that is top shelf quality. Bodhi's Dream Lotus would be the one exception that I currently have in the garden.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> What I would do is maybe see if you can find some natural landscaping lava-rock (homedepot, orchard supply, etc) and then smash those little bastards up.
> Just make sure they didn't treat the rocks with something.


I've tried that. Remember my post a few pages back about running my car back and forth over a bag of lava rock in my driveway? 

You dropped the tip about using your 45lb plates to crush them instead..... which sounds better than my redneck approach.


----------



## foreverflyhi (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Nothing unusual. Kelp, neem, alfalfa, crabshell all at 1/2 the amount initially used. Some fresh soil, a lil spm, and some aeration all added in equal parts.
> 
> I really think this is an aeration issue. I'm forced to use rice hulls as I can't find pumice or smaller lava rock to save my life, and I refuse to have it shipped. I think the hulls degrade a bit and don't serve their purpose so well over time. When I dump and re-amend I'm getting fresh hulls and fresh soil throughout the container so that fluffs it up a bit, which I obviously can't do with no-till.


That's what it sounds like, aeration issue. Trying upping your rice hulls by double maybe even triple? Doubt it will cause problems


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've tried that. Remember my post a few pages back about running my car back and forth over a bag of lava rock in my driveway?
> 
> You dropped the tip about using your 45lb plates to crush them instead..... which sounds better than my redneck approach.


ahh, I thought that was for biochar...
but my memory, um.. has challenges...


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ahh, I thought that was for biochar...
> but my memory, um.. has challenges...


Haha! It could have been.... I've taken that approach with a few different ROLS ingredients.


----------



## zonderkop (Apr 16, 2015)

i believe rice hulls do degrade, so that might be the issue. have you experimented with 15 gallon containers? plant and container size are def. correlated (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/07/120701191636.htm), but i don't when you reach the point of diminishing returns.


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## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think planter size may be one factor to your loss of yield. If you're on Instagram go check out MountainOrganics feed (It's Coot from Icmag, I think) he runs 200 gallon beds.
> It's a very incomplete theory as I'm still educating myself on the sciences of soils and plants. But essentially it's because we (I saw we become I and a lot of others) try to squeeze too much out of too little of soil, which is why I feel dumping acts / ssts is so necessary for a high rate of success in the no-till style of cannabis cultivation where small planters are used. Aside from feeling that our soil beds need to be much, much larger than most styles use (3 - 15 gallons) I feel that our soil also needs a "resting" period, similar to a winter month.
> 
> Do you use acts? Maybe if you can keep your micro heard at its capacity at all times you could avoid the loss in yield?
> ...


I have been thinking about that as well, pondering on whether a couple months with some cover legumes in the soil may help it, or truly a "rest" time where nothing in the soil is alive minus the microbes. No plants.
You make some good points though. No doubt


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Some good thoughts Midwest. I can't disagree much on that. For me yield means only one thing: Keeping my patients supplied. I try to stay within the boundaries of our state laws, so I am growing fewer plants than I otherwise would like to. So those plants have to produce a certain amount, on a certain schedule to keep everyone happy. As it stands I've got it down pretty good, but I don't want to risk running short and having to tell a cancer patient that I don't have enough meds for her this month.
> 
> As for the correlation between yield and potency, I think there could be something to that. Almost without exception, the plants that have the best effect and the best terpine profile are the light yielding variety's. Very rarely do I find a big producer that is top shelf quality. Bodhi's Dream Lotus would be the one exception that I currently have in the garden.


damn, so true.. why is it that the special plants always give you so little?
That's why I have grown the bluedream and the jack herer for so long, both yield pretty damn well, and their smoke is fantastic.
Maybe add the gorilla glue #4 to that list too, that lil lady got me an ounce and a half on a plant barely a foot tall, I flowered it a week after getting the clone. Can't wait to see what it'll do when veged correctly.


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 16, 2015)

From what I can see, the soil mites, earthworms, etc do an excellent job of aerating my soil. I also have quite a bit of pumice and rice hulls. In future mixes, I would like to experiment with 50% peat since the worms turn so much of the media into castings so quickly. I find the outside environment/seasons also effect my indoor grows. ie, I always have better crops in the spring and fall while I tend to see a lower yield in the dead of winter or heat of summer. 

Stow, I'm curious what rounds of notill you are seeing a decrease? Is it the very next round, or a couple of cycles down the road? I don't think no-tilling is as easy as some claim it to be. I know my first attempt wasn't the land of milk and honey I thought it would be. 

Peace,

P-


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Some good thoughts Midwest. I can't disagree much on that. For me yield means only one thing: Keeping my patients supplied. I try to stay within the boundaries of our state laws, so I am growing fewer plants than I otherwise would like to. So those plants have to produce a certain amount, on a certain schedule to keep everyone happy. As it stands I've got it down pretty good, but I don't want to risk running short and having to tell a cancer patient that I don't have enough meds for her this month.
> 
> As for the correlation between yield and potency, I think there could be something to that. Almost without exception, the plants that have the best effect and the best terpine profile are the light yielding variety's. Very rarely do I find a big producer that is top shelf quality. Bodhi's Dream Lotus would be the one exception that I currently have in the garden.


That's the unfortunate issue that I see a lot of people running into; the state. I really see no way around it except to do as you are or break the law. 

I'm lucky in that all of my plants are for my own consumption, so as long as I meet my needs I'm fine with low yields. But I definitely agree that the lower yielders have a higher capacity for affects and a "better" terpene profile. 




greasemonkeymann said:


> I have been thinking about that as well, pondering on whether a couple months with some cover legumes in the soil may help it, or truly a "rest" time where nothing in the soil is alive minus the microbes. No plants.
> You make some good points though. No doubt


 Maybe a restive cycle that's more fungal dominant? At least a small amount of time to let the soil recuperate from such a heavy feeding plant.


----------



## zonderkop (Apr 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Aside from feeling that our soil beds need to be much, much larger than most styles use (3 - 15 gallons) I feel that our soil also needs a "resting" period, similar to a winter month.


i see you beat me to the punch about container size. i actually put one of my 15+ gal. container outside for winter. some of the clover sprung back to life after watering. soil bug life came back too.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> From what I can see, the soil mites, earthworms, etc do an excellent job of aerating my soil. I also have quite a bit of pumice and rice hulls. In future mixes, I would like to experiment with 50% peat since the worms turn so much of the media into castings so quickly. I find the outside environment/seasons also effect my indoor grows. ie, I always have better crops in the spring and fall while I tend to see a lower yield in the dead of winter or heat of summer.
> 
> Stow, I'm curious what rounds of notill you are seeing a decrease? Is it the very next round, or a couple of cycles down the road? I don't think no-tilling is as easy as some claim it to be. I know my first attempt wasn't the land of milk and honey I thought it would be.
> 
> ...


I was at round 3, so second no-till with the same soil..... which happened to fall right in the dead of winter. Could it be that?

Interesting that you mention that, because it crossed my mind the other night as well. I was trying to remember if my yields dropped off last winter, but I smoke too much weed and don't write that shit down.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 16, 2015)

I think it's safe to say that there's a maddening amount of variables when it comes to (attempting to) replicating nature indoors.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think it's safe to say that there's a maddening amount of variables when it comes to (attempting to) replicating nature indoors.


Always learning. I don't care how long someone's been at it


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 16, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I was at round 3, so second no-till with the same soil..... which happened to fall right in the dead of winter. Could it be that?
> 
> Interesting that you mention that, because it crossed my mind the other night as well. I was trying to remember if my yields dropped off last winter, but I smoke too much weed and don't write that shit down.


I often talk about how the outside effects inside grows. I've noticed it for years in all different styles of growing. Didn't matter if the room stayed at exactly the same temps and humidity levels, season seems to have an effect imo. I have also stepped up my teas adding more frequent, but low doses of alfalfa, kelp, neem, etc. More waterings than not I'll throw a pinch or two of kelp or whatnot and let it bubble for 24 hours. I also like to pull back the mulch and do a top dressing about week 2-3 of flower. I also add aeration to my top dressing.

My first not till did terrible. I let the soil sit way too long, didn't keep it moist enough, didn't plant a cover crop, didn't add near enough top dressing or teas. They faded quickly to say the least.

Don't know if any of this will help. Just a stoned ramble on a few things that helped my grows. 

Peace!

P-


----------



## Joedank (Apr 16, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> well shit, it is made from gypsum, so I guess that is a good way to get it.. if you can't find it..
> I'd be worried about any flame-retardent chems or whatever they use to bind it with..
> I'll be damned though...good idea.
> I think?


there is a study from csu that has drywall waste being chopped an ammened in fields shown lacking....
they say its just ppaper and gypsum no binders just h2o.... please correct me if this is wrong...


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 16, 2015)

Joedank said:


> there is a study from csu that has drywall waste being chopped an ammened in fields shown lacking....
> they say its just ppaper and gypsum no binders just h2o.... please correct me if this is wrong...


http://www.nationalgypsum.com/products/product.aspx?doctype=MSDS


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 16, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I often talk about how the outside effects inside grows. I've noticed it for years in all different styles of growing. Didn't matter if the room stayed at exactly the same temps and humidity levels, season seems to have an effect imo. I have also stepped up my teas adding more frequent, but low doses of alfalfa, kelp, neem, etc. More waterings than not I'll throw a pinch or two of kelp or whatnot and let it bubble for 24 hours. I also like to pull back the mulch and do a top dressing about week 2-3 of flower. I also add aeration to my top dressing.
> 
> My first not till did terrible. I let the soil sit way too long, didn't keep it moist enough, didn't plant a cover crop, didn't add near enough top dressing or teas. They faded quickly to say the least.
> 
> ...


That could explain why my ginger root waited almost 8 months (until this spring) to sprout foliage, the season I mean.


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> good info here on neem https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=290297
> i have researched a omri cert. product called calcium-25 it is applied in full sun at 77+ deg! < was the first i heard of that !
> systemic means taken in by the whole plant . now 5ml of neem in 2.5ml protec(ksil) in warm (75-85) water works wonders for my life . but if you have any reservations try it on one plant . if you see anything weird cut it out there are better ways to fight (or not) bugs .
> the debateable systemic neem study> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/026121949500026I


thanks for the link!
wow that's cool and good to know, I went ahead a foliared a couple times with lights on no problems. light solutions though like silica amd humic. amd just plain water foliar too .
Doesn't the whole plant take in foliars too?
awesome thanks dank! 
I think I finally beat the gnats but going to a neem foliar before I flip to flower. 
Thanks everyone for the bug advice! It all helped!


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> No. Use it pretty much immediately.
> 
> P-


Damn oh well lol pretty much do that with everything else. still love me some organics


----------



## anzohaze (Apr 17, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Nothing unusual. Kelp, neem, alfalfa, crabshell all at 1/2 the amount initially used. Some fresh soil, a lil spm, and some aeration all added in equal parts.
> 
> I really think this is an aeration issue. I'm forced to use rice hulls as I can't find pumice or smaller lava rock to save my life, and I refuse to have it shipped. I think the hulls degrade a bit and don't serve their purpose so well over time. When I dump and re-amend I'm getting fresh hulls and fresh soil throughout the container so that fluffs it up a bit, which I obviously can't do with no-till.


Try going to Lowe's or home Depot and getting red lava rock. It's light and pourous and helps a lot. A .5 cubit foot bag is 4 dollars roughly and I use 3/4 of a bag per 15 gal As well as cowboy charcoal and.oyster shells.(thanks grease)


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## Pattahabi (Apr 17, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> thanks for the link!
> wow that's cool and good to know, I went ahead a foliared a couple times with lights on no problems. light solutions though like silica amd humic. amd just plain water foliar too .
> Doesn't the whole plant take in foliars too?
> awesome thanks dank!
> ...


Plants leaves do not allow the humic acid molecules through the stomata - they are too big. Better used in the soil. If you want to use a humic source, use a fulvic acid for foliar. The molecules are smaller and will permeate the leaves.


Joedank said:


> good info here on neem https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=290297
> i have researched a omri cert. product called calcium-25 it is applied in full sun at 77+ deg! < was the first i heard of that !
> systemic means taken in by the whole plant . now 5ml of neem in 2.5ml protec(ksil) in warm (75-85) water works wonders for my life . but if you have any reservations try it on one plant . if you see anything weird cut it out there are better ways to fight (or not) bugs .
> the debateable systemic neem study> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/026121949500026I


Looks like they were using azadirachtin, not neem oil. This is not really correct, "A commercial neem formulation containing azadirachtin-A (AZ-A)" Formulation? More like extraction. This is one chemical out of over 300 that is in neem. Moral of the story, azamax is another bs hydrostore product that is designed to separate you from your money.

Peace!

P-


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## Joedank (Apr 17, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Plants leaves do not allow the humic acid molecules through the stomata - they are too big. Better used in the soil. If you want to use a humic source, use a fulvic acid for foliar. The molecules are smaller and will permeate the leaves.
> 
> Looks like they were using azadirachtin, not neem oil. This is not really correct, "A commercial neem formulation containing azadirachtin-A (AZ-A)" Formulation? More like extraction. This is one chemical out of over 300 that is in neem. Moral of the story, azamax is another bs hydrostore product that is designed to separate you from your money.
> 
> ...


NOT the whole story here ... if they knew how to trace the other300 molecules they would .
the POINT you are missing is the molecule was passed from root to leaf tip fom fertigation.... a molecule not needed for plant life.... hmmmmmmm very cool and inovative ... i would never adovcate a EXTRACT of neem over real NEEM ...
find fault if you need to but the point is neem can translocate without ever spraying it .... cool....
if your not using this site it rawks for teas and microbe pics for you microscope http://www.microbeorganics.com/
i also would avoid humic and fulvic acid EXCEPT as a folir as EWC has plenty of both . and excess of both can cause cleation of minerals you dont want accumilating in your plant....
wasteful gardening if you ask me .... humics and fulvic are SNAKE OIL ../.
a light read http://www.scielo.cl/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0718-95162010000100005


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 17, 2015)

Something occurred to me this morning as I was watching my plants "wake up" during lights on. I wonder if the success of our no-till containers has a high correlation to where our containers are; in a greenhouse, in your basement, the 3rd floor of an apartment, etc. 
Obviously the containers that have a higher exposure to "outside" weather would have a higher population of beneficials, right? Or at least a better opportunity to populate said beneficials.


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## Forte (Apr 17, 2015)

Does anyone use EM-1? I read that it's bad because it decomposes your soil fast.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 17, 2015)

Forte said:


> Does anyone use EM-1? I read that it's bad because it decomposes your soil fast.


Isn't that just a lacto innoculant that you'd use in a bokashi composting bin?

*Edit
I just looked it up. It's mostly water, the useful bits are different lactobacillus' and like 3 percent molasses as a food source for the microbes. I can't say for certain if it's "bad" for your soil, but from my experience it's not at all. I culture my own lactobacillus for a number of different things, I even goofed once and drenched multiple 3 gallon planters with an undiluted lacto serum to no ill affects. 
I know you can use it to "drown out" bad populations of microbes in your soil.


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> NOT the whole story here ... if they knew how to trace the other300 molecules they would .
> the POINT you are missing is the molecule was passed from root to leaf tip fom fertigation.... a molecule not needed for plant life.... hmmmmmmm very cool and inovative ... i would never adovcate a EXTRACT of neem over real NEEM ...
> find fault if you need to but the point is neem can translocate without ever spraying it .... cool....
> if your not using this site it rawks for teas and microbe pics for you microscope http://www.microbeorganics.com/
> ...


I'm not missing the point, I know what you are getting at. We all love insecticides that keep on keeping on. I will say this, I have done azamax soil drenches... your plants will not thank you for it. I would opt for neem meal in the soil, and topdressed. 

The point I'm trying to make is once they have extracted one compound out of the neem tree, they immediately created a new product with a hefty price tag and sold it in the hydrostores. From Coot:

_Of the 3 compounds listed out of 22, Nimbin & Salanin are the strongest pesticide from this tree. It’s very difficult to isolate and extract which is why you don’t find much information about either one and you won’t find it in retail products at your local nursery._

Peace!

P-


----------



## Forte (Apr 17, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Isn't that just a lacto innoculant that you'd use in a bokashi composting bin?
> 
> *Edit
> I just looked it up. It's mostly water, the useful bits are different lactobacillus' and like 3 percent molasses as a food source for the microbes. I can't say for certain if it's "bad" for your soil, but from my experience it's not at all. I culture my own lactobacillus for a number of different things, I even goofed once and drenched multiple 3 gallon planters with an undiluted lacto serum to no ill affects.
> I know you can use it to "drown out" bad populations of microbes in your soil.


Yeah, that's it. I was on the ICMAG LOS thread, and one the guys that started the thread said that adding that would cause your soil to decompose faster. I just bought a bottle so I wanted to see how it has worked for other people. How do you culture your own lacto, seems very interesting.


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## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Plants leaves do not allow the humic acid molecules through the stomata - they are too big. Better used in the soil. If you want to use a humic source, use a fulvic acid for foliar. The molecules are smaller and will permeate the leaves.
> 
> Looks like they were using azadirachtin, not neem oil. This is not really correct, "A commercial neem formulation containing azadirachtin-A (AZ-A)" Formulation? More like extraction. This is one chemical out of over 300 that is in neem. Moral of the story, azamax is another bs hydrostore product that is designed to separate you from your money.
> 
> ...


Good lookin out Pat! I remember reading somewhere that Ful power is actually fulvic acids but because of some state laws they made it say humic? some sneakyshit lol but tthat's what I used was ful power. weird though cause humic acid powders amd ful power have directions for foliar feeds. 

Haha I remember though whole discussion in here about neem and azomax. I really dont get it. of it's in neem along with a bunch of other stuff why not use the neem? that's like only taking one amino acid instead of protein. seems silly...

Would foliar feeding a SST be any good? or stick to soil? 

Has anyone tried an essential oil blend on their plants? BAS has one just curious. im loving the neem.


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> NOT the whole story here ... if they knew how to trace the other300 molecules they would .
> the POINT you are missing is the molecule was passed from root to leaf tip fom fertigation.... a molecule not needed for plant life.... hmmmmmmm very cool and inovative ... i would never adovcate a EXTRACT of neem over real NEEM ...
> find fault if you need to but the point is neem can translocate without ever spraying it .... cool....
> if your not using this site it rawks for teas and microbe pics for you microscope http://www.microbeorganics.com/
> ...


im following what you saying. that is interesting. 
Microbeorganics is the shizz! I need to brew me a tea soon. 
Hm good to know.. I think ill lay off as like you said. lots of other chelators. 
I can see it..


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Isn't that just a lacto innoculant that you'd use in a bokashi composting bin?
> 
> *Edit
> I just looked it up. It's mostly water, the useful bits are different lactobacillus' and like 3 percent molasses as a food source for the microbes. I can't say for certain if it's "bad" for your soil, but from my experience it's not at all. I culture my own lactobacillus for a number of different things, I even goofed once and drenched multiple 3 gallon planters with an undiluted lacto serum to no ill affects.
> I know you can use it to "drown out" bad populations of microbes in your soil.


lmao I remember that! glad no harm was done. Good times! lol


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'm not missing the point, I know what you are getting at. We all love insecticides that keep on keeping on. I will say this, I have done azamax soil drenches... your plants will not thank you for it. I would opt for neem meal in the soil, and topdressed.
> 
> The point I'm trying to make is once they have extracted one compound out of the neem tree, they immediately created a new product with a hefty price tag and sold it in the hydrostores. From Coot:
> 
> ...


Coot dont play. Dont fudge with Coot yall.


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## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

check these out. Im thinking of putting the 2x2 in my 2x2.5 and the 2x4 in my 2x4 lol then put these mats underneath em ay?
The 2x4 has circles in it that I hope dont go all the way up. Im curious as to how much yeild would increase if I doubled or tripled soil volume. im only in a 10gal now and could easily go to a 20 gal in my 2x2.5

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00T3QSSRE/ref=mp_s_a_1_4?qid=1429312328&sr=8-4&pi=AC_SX110_SY165_QL70&keywords=victory 8 cube&dpPl=1&dpID=51PJ0WYRe2L&ref=plSrch

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00D7LLEHW/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?qid=1429267235&sr=8-1&keywords=victory 8 ez garden&dpPl=1&dpID=419cukCJQuL&ref=plSrch&pi=AC_SX200_QL40

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00DP2DOYE?psc=1


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## Joedank (Apr 17, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> im following what you saying. that is interesting.
> Microbeorganics is the shizz! I need to brew me a tea soon.
> Hm good to know.. I think ill lay off as like you said. lots of other chelators.
> I can see it..


love tim wilson and his ideas of scoping each BATCH of tea ...dont do what i say check out the link and look at the keys to your system . in my system bottles of rocks are not needed do to the biochar and coffee and castings ect ... all things to bring in the actiomytices that can eat that stuff ...
i do food production each season and have learned alot from the AG extentiion agents here phd n such. they say once or twice A YEAR is plenty for humic/ fulvic complexes that they tye up compounds and linger FOREVER..... they are so small its hard to tell/ see them ... like molasses less is more


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## hyroot (Apr 17, 2015)

I know.we all use coots recipe even if adjusted. We get better yields and trichome production. One thing super soil has over other recipes is the colors it brings out in each plant. Now what is it that causes these colors to come out. I don't seem to get those colors at all. My 9lb hammer next to jinxproofs. Same structure and mine is a little more frosty but his has crazy colors. Again what is it in super soil that brings out these colors? Thousands of people can't be photoshopping their pics...


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## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> love tim wilson and his ideas of scoping each BATCH of tea ...dont do what i say check out the link and look at the keys to your system . in my system bottles of rocks are not needed do to the biochar and coffee and castings ect ... all things to bring in the actiomytices that can eat that stuff ...
> i do food production each season and have learned alot from the AG extentiion agents here phd n such. they say once or twice A YEAR is plenty for humic/ fulvic complexes that they tye up compounds and linger FOREVER..... they are so small its hard to tell/ see them ... like molasses less is more


I agree fascinating stuff to control a plants growth starting on microscopic level lol mindblowing. 
And of course. I just use so much other great stuff I figured after what you said and I have a great soil. And ive used it multiple times now lol
That's badass, got inside connections haha
Daaaamn that's crazy. sure does justify the cost of the stuff a lot more lol


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## earthling420 (Apr 17, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I know.we all use coots recipe even if adjusted. We get better yields and trichome production. One thing super soil has over other recipes is the colors it brings out in each plant. Now what is it that causes these colors to come out. I don't seem to get those colors at all. My 9lb hammer next to jinxproofs. Same structure and mine is a little more frosty but his has crazy colors. Again what is it in super soil that brings out these colors? Thousands of people can't be photoshopping their pics...


Haha word. I was just messin around, Coot's bombs of knowledge and bossness just get me hyped lol
Huh, that's very stange. I havent seen any SS plants and am a noob so I got nothin else t add lol


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 18, 2015)

Were is Coot these days???? still over at the LOS forum? was always a teacher and never belittled anyone no matter the question.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 18, 2015)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Were is Coot these days???? still over at the LOS forum? was always a teacher and never belittled anyone no matter the question.


I see him fairly often on his Instagram account


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 18, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I see him fairly often on his Instagram account


Lol, Coot doesn't instagram.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 18, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Lol, Coot doesn't instagram.


You're correct, I had things crossed in my head mind. I was thinking of another icmag member. Thanks P! 
I'm also a couple more chapters deeper in that book you sent me, good stuff!


----------



## hyroot (Apr 18, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Lol, Coot doesn't instagram.


I see him on MySpace though lol. (not really)


----------



## zonderkop (Apr 18, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Would foliar feeding a SST be any good? or stick to soil?


SST is strictly for soil.


----------



## x713 (Apr 18, 2015)

coot still gets on gc terrorizing you nearest hydroponic garden,all the post and info i got from him i feel like i met the dude and know him for years but never met him before


----------



## foreverflyhi (Apr 19, 2015)

Here's something about essential oils I never took into consideration. 





Pretty much says best not to mix oils, best to apply individual oils in layers. And yes it's talking bout skin use, but im sure it apply to our plants as well


----------



## Mohican (Apr 19, 2015)

I am mixing up some vitamin C serum for my skin.


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 20, 2015)

Happy 4/20 all! 

Finally scored some Motarebel gear! From the orginal bros grimm stock! Also picked up some Loran's Longbottom Leaf! Woohoo! 



Smoke em if ya got em!

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 20, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Happy 4/20 all!
> 
> Finally scored some Motarebel gear! From the orginal bros grimm stock! Also picked up some Loran's Longbottom Leaf! Woohoo!
> 
> ...


Happy Holidays my brother, and to all my other brothers and sisters here.
Good Choice by the way...
I thought of you the other day when I was gonna get the Tree of Life. Bitches sold out though...
But I can't complain, this is what I went with instead.
Haven't been this excited for a seed purchase ever
All those seeds popped after less than 14 hrs in water, and they are now at their second set of true leaves, under my teeny tiny cloner light, just now ready for transplant, I have them in toilet paper rolls (I love that method)


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 20, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Happy Holidays my brother, and to all my other brothers and sisters here.
> Good Choice by the way...
> I thought of you the other day when I was gonna get the Tree of Life. Bitches sold out though...
> But I can't complain, this is what I went with instead.
> Haven't been this excited for a seed purchase ever


Oh man! You got some good ones there! I've been wanting that pineapple hashplant! Tranquil elephanitizer gets my vote for the name alone lol! I've already run Blue tara several times including f2'ing it and running some of those seeds. Nothing but fire imo! 

P-


----------



## Nursejanna (Apr 20, 2015)

headtreep said:


> Some products I use:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How often do you foliar with aloe? Throughout veg and flower?


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 20, 2015)

Nursejanna said:


> How often do you foliar with aloe? Throughout veg and flower?


I'm not sure you are going to get an answer from Headtreep. I don't think he has posted on here in a while. I will say I have foliared with aloe up to several times per week, sometimes till the end of flower. With that said, once a week up till week two or of flowering is super safe at recommended doses (just don't get crazy with it).

You can use fresh, powdered, or liquid. However, keep an eye out for additives in the liquid.

Peace!

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 20, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Oh man! You got some good ones there! I've been wanting that pineapple hashplant! Tranquil elephanitizer gets my vote for the name alone lol! I've already run Blue tara several times including f2'ing it and running some of those seeds. Nothing but fire imo!
> 
> P-


SO true, the hashplant looks like a keeper, ya gotta love those genetics involved!
The blue tara looks insane from your pics and I think mad Hamish? I can't remember, I think it was him, but I could be wrong, doesn't matter though, point is, every damn picture I see of Bodhi genetics has been almost jaw-dropping


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 20, 2015)

Happy 4/20! Hope everyone is spending a little extra time with that special lady in your life! 



Peace!

P-


----------



## Nursejanna (Apr 20, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'm not sure you are going to get an answer from Headtreep. I don't think he has posted on here in a while. I will say I have foliared with aloe up to several times per week, sometimes till the end of flower. With that said, once a week up till week two or of flowering is super safe at recommended doses (just don't get crazy with it).
> 
> You can use fresh, powdered, or liquid. However, keep an eye out for additives in the liquid.
> 
> ...


Awesome, thank you! And happy 420


----------



## hyroot (Apr 20, 2015)

Nursejanna said:


> How often do you foliar with aloe? Throughout veg and flower?





Pattahabi said:


> I'm not sure you are going to get an answer from Headtreep. I don't think he has posted on here in a while. I will say I have foliared with aloe up to several times per week, sometimes till the end of flower. With that said, once a week up till week two or of flowering is super safe at recommended doses (just don't get crazy with it).
> 
> You can use fresh, powdered, or liquid. However, keep an eye out for additives in the liquid.
> 
> ...



headtreep is on instagram but he goes by invocation_notill

he use aloe foliar 2x per week.

He still reads this thread. He pops in with a post every few months or so.


----------



## Mohican (Apr 21, 2015)

I got my scaffold built!







The Maku is revegging/reflowering hard! That Alaska Fish solid fertilizer for tomatoes is amazing!







This stuff:









Cheers,
Mo


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 22, 2015)

Hey guy, I need some help. Long story short I've gotten the opportunity this year to take a small chunk of land and do, for the most part, whatever I want to it in regards to landscaping and gardening. So I'm going to turn it into an example of permaculture in the Midwest. I'm even going to start a thread in the gardening section and track my progress. 
What I need help on though, is compiling a list of plants that would be beneficial in a garden. I'm looking for things like comfrey, alfalfa, Marigolds, etc. The plan so far for the garden is to have 3, 2ft x 6ft x 12 inch raised beds. Two for herbs and veggies, the other for dynamic accumulators that I'll cultivate for mulch, etc. So, any ideas guys? I figured this would be the place to ask over the gardening section.


----------



## Scotch089 (Apr 22, 2015)

https://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346

Part or stow or fly or SOMEBODY linked this a while ago. When I changed phones I made sure to email it to myself for a bookmark

Good start


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 22, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> https://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346
> 
> Part or stow or fly or SOMEBODY linked this a while ago. When I changed phones I made sure to email it to myself for a bookmark
> 
> Good start


Thank you! I was hoping someone could eventually point me in the right direction in regards to fermentation. It's on my checklist of ideas to explore. 

How do you guys feel about the hugelkultur method of gardening? It's one of the ideas I'm going to use a lot as I have almost unlimited access to fallen and rotting trees/wood.


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 22, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> Happy Holidays my brother, and to all my other brothers and sisters here.
> Good Choice by the way...
> I thought of you the other day when I was gonna get the Tree of Life. Bitches sold out though...
> But I can't complain, this is what I went with instead.
> ...


Ive been hearing about Bodhi since I joined this forum. And yes the pics are insane. Where does a fellow weedist source their Bodhi seeds? how was shipping? Im waiting to get some sin city seeds atm or rare dankness.
I soaked my first seed in ful power solution 24hours then planted. Tried just planting em and the ful power soak definitely sped up the sprout time.... however, very odd, they are growing at the same pace.
Weird but there are variables. Dif mix slightlyy, and dif things added and foliared and what not.

Has anyone tried soaking in plain h20 vs ful power dilution?


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 22, 2015)

Got mycelium? lol


----------



## hyroot (Apr 22, 2015)

yo everybody. I picked up some organic yellow popcorn seed from sprouts market for $1.29 a pound. It did sprout. Took.4 days to sprout. Its half the price of build a soil.


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 22, 2015)

hyroot said:


> yo everybody. I picked up some organic yellow popcorn seed from sprouts market for $1.29 a pound. It did sprout. Took.4 days to sprout. Its half the price of build a soil.


Hell yeah! Always source local first!

I'm curious if anyone has ordered this from BAS? I can tell you one thing, you're not going to fit five pounds of barley seed in a usps small flat rate box. Make sure you're getting what you pay for from these guys.




Call me cynical, 

P-


----------



## hyroot (Apr 22, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Hell yeah! Always source local first!
> 
> I'm curious if anyone has ordered this from BAS? I can tell you one thing, you're not going to fit five pounds of barley seed in a usps small flat rate box. Make sure you're getting what you pay for from these guys.
> 
> ...



I know a few people that have. I dont think the weighed it.

at the market the corn seed is in a bin. You fill up a bag and weigh it yourself like veggies.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 23, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Hell yeah! Always source local first!
> 
> I'm curious if anyone has ordered this from BAS? I can tell you one thing, you're not going to fit five pounds of barley seed in a usps small flat rate box. Make sure you're getting what you pay for from these guys.
> 
> ...


I haven't ordered any seeds for sprouting from them, but I did order ten cups of vermicompost that had the small box bulging at the sides and split in some corners (it was sealed in a durable bag so no big deal). So far they seem to nail every order I give them and haven't ever screwed me over, that I know of.


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 23, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I haven't ordered any seeds for sprouting from them, but I did order ten cups of vermicompost that had the small box bulging at the sides and split in some corners (it was sealed in a durable bag so no big deal). So far they seem to nail every order I give them and haven't ever screwed me over, that I know of.


Again, the reason I ask these questions is I had to send a friend some neem in Israel, when I tried to fit 16lbs in the medium flat rate box (as listed on bas) there was no chance in hell it was going to fit. The most I could possibly fit was 12 pounds. Shortly after I made a few comments about this, the amount was changed to 12 lbs, however it still says you are getting 40 cups which is a contradiction as 12 pounds does not equal 40 cups. 

It's early, and I need to drink coffee, but 10 cups in a small flat rate box? As always I could be wrong, but it sure doesn't look like 10 cups will fit in there. I might try later and see what I can fit into one.

Peace!

P-


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 23, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Again, the reason I ask these questions is I had to send a friend some neem in Israel, when I tried to fit 16lbs in the medium flat rate box (as listed on bas) there was no chance in hell it was going to fit. The most I could possibly fit was 12 pounds. Shortly after I made a few comments about this, the amount was changed to 12 lbs, however it still says you are getting 40 cups which is a contradiction as 12 pounds does not equal 40 cups.
> 
> It's early, and I need to drink coffee, but 10 cups in a small flat rate box? As always I could be wrong, but it sure doesn't look like 10 cups will fit in there. I might try later and see what I can fit into one.
> 
> ...


Have you considered the moisture content contributing to the weight? If it was me who had to pay for shipping soil and soil amendments, I'd let them dry as much as possible before packaging it all up. Just a thought!


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 23, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Have you considered the moisture content contributing to the weight? If it was me who had to pay for shipping soil and soil amendments, I'd let them dry as much as possible before packaging it all up. Just a thought!


When measuring in weight this is totally true. However, cups is a volume measurement.

I took some compost and a small flat rate box and filled it. I fit 5 cups comfortably, and you might be able to squish a sixth cup in there. I welcome people to try this and see how many cups they can fit.

Just saying,

P-


----------



## hyroot (Apr 23, 2015)




----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 23, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> When measuring in weight this is totally true. However, cups is a volume measurement.
> 
> I took some compost and a small flat rate box and filled it. I fit 5 cups comfortably, and you might be able to squish a sixth cup in there. I welcome people to try this and see how many cups they can fit.
> 
> ...


My assumption is that we're getting neither an accurate weight or volume, but rather somewhere in between. My guess is that at one point they figured out what will fit in what container by some rough math perhaps? I should have taken a picture of my box of vermicompost though, it really was quite comical how much they managed to fit in the poor box.


----------



## stak (Apr 23, 2015)

The descriptions say they use the small flat rate padded bag not the box.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 23, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Ive been hearing about Bodhi since I joined this forum. And yes the pics are insane. Where does a fellow weedist source their Bodhi seeds? how was shipping? Im waiting to get some sin city seeds atm or rare dankness.
> I soaked my first seed in ful power solution 24hours then planted. Tried just planting em and the ful power soak definitely sped up the sprout time.... however, very odd, they are growing at the same pace.
> Weird but there are variables. Dif mix slightlyy, and dif things added and foliared and what not.
> 
> Has anyone tried soaking in plain h20 vs ful power dilution?


Bodhi is great for sure. There's a couple state side vendors that carry his gear if you're ok with sending cash/money orders in the mail. If you prefer credit card then the usual UK vendors all carry his stuff.

As for germinating seeds, I find soaking them in plain water for 48 hours, then putting them straight in to soil works best for me.


----------



## earthling420 (Apr 23, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Bodhi is great for sure. There's a couple state side vendors that carry his gear if you're ok with sending cash/money orders in the mail. If you prefer credit card then the usual UK vendors all carry his stuff.
> 
> As for germinating seeds, I find soaking them in plain water for 48 hours, then putting them straight in to soil works best for me.


You know if they're reliable? 
Cool thanks for the input man. 
how quick will they sprout?

As for BAS that's pretty shady. I can't believe they're selling mars led lights lol


----------



## Joedank (Apr 23, 2015)

stak said:


> The descriptions say they use the small flat rate padded bag not the box.


called jason the Owner to see about a few bags of neem seed meal as they are 30 miles from me but never got al call back ;(


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 23, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> You know if they're reliable?
> Cool thanks for the input man.
> how quick will they sprout?
> 
> As for BAS that's pretty shady. I can't believe they're selling mars led lights lol


I've never used seed vault of California but many others have with no issues. Great Lakes Genetics is legit as well but I'm not sure if they ship to non medical states. Both places will throw in a free pack of Bodhi if you buy two packs. Basically 3 packs of bodhi for $140.

My seeds pop up from the soil in 24-72 hours after the 2 day soak for the most part


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 23, 2015)




----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> View attachment 3402756


ohhh me likey
whats that lil ladies name?


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Apr 24, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Ive been hearing about Bodhi since I joined this forum. And yes the pics are insane. Where does a fellow weedist source their Bodhi seeds? how was shipping? Im waiting to get some sin city seeds atm or rare dankness.
> I soaked my first seed in ful power solution 24hours then planted. Tried just planting em and the ful power soak definitely sped up the sprout time.... however, very odd, they are growing at the same pace.
> Weird but there are variables. Dif mix slightlyy, and dif things added and foliared and what not.
> 
> Has anyone tried soaking in plain h20 vs ful power dilution?


I got mine locally, so can't say much regarding that, I don't do any soaking (other than water for 12 hrs, which actually had 10 out of 12 "oystered" in that time), I plant in half homemade screened compost and seedstarter mix, in toilet paper rolls.

The compost has all the goodies that I need
My 12 Bodhi plants are doing well, just transplanted them last night. they are about 6" high, second set of true leaves.


----------



## Pattahabi (Apr 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ohhh me likey
> whats that lil ladies name?


Thanks Grease! I think I was smoking enough I forgot to put a caption on it lol! That is Lemon Diesel from Emerald Triangle. I've ran several strains by ET and always been real happy with them. 

Happy FrYday all!

P-


----------



## Indian Spices (Apr 27, 2015)

thats the spirit!


----------



## foreverflyhi (Apr 28, 2015)

Smell mo like outdoh update

Couple weeks ago, Slightly after transplant into final 40gallons






More recent after couple week veg, still have a extra 2 months before flower starts






Critical kush


----------



## Fogdog (Apr 30, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Smell mo like outdoh update
> 
> Couple weeks ago, Slightly after transplant into final 40gallons
> 
> ...


Beeeewtyyyful, man. an inspiring organic grow to say that least.


hyroot said:


>


Hyroot, thanks for posting these. I'm planning my first grow, to start in July (independence day for Oregon's non-medical growers) and trying to learn as much as I can before the problems start. I'll be a small grower -- limited to four plants, indoors most of the time but outdoors maybe next year. I'm aware of temp, humidity, air flow, lighting requirements and building control for these parameters into my grow cabinets. But my question is not about me, it's asking what you normally do to prevent infestations. Do you do periodic foliar feeding? Is preventative spraying for PM, mites, etc. recommended or would pest management sprays be recommended mostly after a problem is found.

In the second video you posted, both the folks from Dragonfly and Bamboo talked about spraying daily. Really? Some of the sprays they talked about should be active for longer than that. So my question is, how much pest management spraying do you think is needed?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Apr 30, 2015)

Fogdog said:


> Beeeewtyyyful, man. an inspiring organic grow to say that least.
> 
> Hyroot, thanks for posting these. I'm planning my first grow, to start in July (independence day for Oregon's non-medical growers) and trying to learn as much as I can before the problems start. I'll be a small grower -- limited to four plants, indoors most of the time but outdoors maybe next year. I'm aware of temp, humidity, air flow, lighting requirements and building control for these parameters into my grow cabinets. But my question is not about me, it's asking what you normally do to prevent infestations. Do you do periodic foliar feeding? Is preventative spraying for PM, mites, etc. or treatment after a problem is found.
> 
> In the second video you posted, both the folks from Dragonfly and Bamboo talked about spraying daily. Really? Some of the sprays they talked about should be active for longer than that. So my question is, how much pest management spraying do you think is needed?


If you include neem seed meal and crab shell meal in your soil mix that will go a long way in deterring pests from your garden. I spray once a week, sometimes it's neem oil, sometimes kelp, sometimes aloe..... but the key to my pest free garden is what I put in the soil, not what I spray on the plants.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Apr 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> If you include neem seed meal and crab shell meal in your soil mix that will go a long way in deterring pests from your garden. I spray once a week, sometimes it's neem oil, sometimes kelp, sometimes aloe..... but the key to my pest free garden is what I put in the soil, not what I spray on the plants.


Stow nailed it. In my opinion, like 90 percent of pest management (organically) comes down to soil amendments. Before I started including neem and karanja in my mix I always battled bugs at some level, whether they be gnats or what have you.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 1, 2015)

Hey guys, wish I could drop a picture of the ladies but life has been hectic running a business and pulling 12 hour days. I start flower today and I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on something. When I flip tonight I'll be shifting when my "daytime" is by about a quarter/half of a day. Instead of being on at 6am and off at midnight, it'll be on at 6 pm and off at 6 am. This is to compensate for the rising temperatures outside and to make it so my plants aren't awake only when I'm at work. I'm curious if this will cause any stress or unusual effects? Do plants get jet lag? Haha


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 2, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Hey guys, wish I could drop a picture of the ladies but life has been hectic running a business and pulling 12 hour days. I start flower today and I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on something. When I flip tonight I'll be shifting when my "daytime" is by about a quarter/half of a day. Instead of being on at 6am and off at midnight, it'll be on at 6 pm and off at 6 am. This is to compensate for the rising temperatures outside and to make it so my plants aren't awake only when I'm at work. I'm curious if this will cause any stress or unusual effects? Do plants get jet lag? Haha


I'd say you'll be fine. The only consideration to me would be to give them the extra 6-12 hours during the shift of darkness as opposed to giving them 18+ hours of lights on.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 5, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Hey guys, wish I could drop a picture of the ladies but life has been hectic running a business and pulling 12 hour days. I start flower today and I was wondering if anyone has any thoughts on something. When I flip tonight I'll be shifting when my "daytime" is by about a quarter/half of a day. Instead of being on at 6am and off at midnight, it'll be on at 6 pm and off at 6 am. This is to compensate for the rising temperatures outside and to make it so my plants aren't awake only when I'm at work. I'm curious if this will cause any stress or unusual effects? Do plants get jet lag? Haha


it'll be fine man, as long as you don't interrupt the 12 hrs off, and as long as it's only the one time.
I do the same thing in fact.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 5, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'd say you'll be fine. The only consideration to me would be to give them the extra 6-12 hours during the shift of darkness as opposed to giving them 18+ hours of lights on.


yes, this is exactly right, you don't want to mess with the light schedule (meaning no more than 12 hrs of light), the darkness is ok, if they are flowering, hell I had a surprise landlord visit about 10 yrs ago, and I had to put them in air/light tight container for 30 hrs...
no problems, other than my sweaty palms while the landlord perused my shit..


----------



## earthling420 (May 6, 2015)

hey all, I was wondering if there's any hope left for my lady. I switched her to flowering after I thought I got rid of my gnats. then somehow my timer got fucked up and I think it might have been on 24 hours. I fixed it amd now she is barely switching, amd slowly losing more leaves. any help? I tried an ewc molasses tea too


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 7, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> hey all, I was wondering if there's any hope left for my lady. I switched her to flowering after I thought I got rid of my gnats. then somehow my timer got fucked up and I think it might have been on 24 hours. I fixed it amd now she is barely switching, amd slowly losing more leaves. any help? I tried an ewc molasses tea too


Do you have any aloe vera plants available to you? They make a great "tea" for plants that are stressed and damaged.


----------



## earthling420 (May 7, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Smell mo like outdoh update
> 
> Couple weeks ago, Slightly after transplant into final 40gallons
> 
> ...


 wow. gorgeous ladies. with that many gals Im wondering do you water them with the hose?


----------



## earthling420 (May 7, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Do you have any aloe vera plants available to you? They make a great "tea" for plants that are stressed and damaged.


I do, should I foliar her as much as I can with aloe and neem and silica?

I cant water a lot of stuff in causeshes drinking real slow and with the gnats, im lettin her.dry a lil. If it wil even help get rid of them who knows. just sucks to come this far and she start dieing like this. breaks my heart, but she's a fighter so ill stand by her to the end


----------



## Pattahabi (May 7, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> I do, should I foliar her as much as I can with aloe and neem and silica?
> 
> I cant water a lot of stuff in causeshes drinking real slow and with the gnats, im lettin her.dry a lil. If it wil even help get rid of them who knows. just sucks to come this far and she start dieing like this. breaks my heart, but she's a fighter so ill stand by her to the end


Fresh aloe, puree approximately one ounce of the gel (I've been pureeing skin and all) per gallon of water. Spray immediately on the tops and bottoms of the leaves. If you're not too over watered, you might even mist the top of the topsoil a little. Aloe I have used excessively and I have not noticed any negative results. Neem and silica you will have to experiment a little to find the dosage that works for your situation.

Peace!

P-


----------



## greenghost420 (May 8, 2015)

damn didnt realize BAS could be getting over on folks. i just threw them some bizniz too. he didnt seem to be able to tell me how much cal/phos to add to a ft3 or even how much to topdress. i was like wtf! i was told not to topdress with it but rather a drench or foliar. anyone confirm this?


----------



## greenghost420 (May 8, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> You know if they're reliable?
> Cool thanks for the input man.
> how quick will they sprout?
> 
> As for BAS that's pretty shady. I can't believe they're selling mars led lights lol


are mars panels that bad? lol


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 8, 2015)

greenghost420 said:


> are mars panels that bad? lol


Been wondering this myself. 

@hyrootpharms aren't you pretty read up on led tech?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 8, 2015)

I've been pondering something; rice hulls mulch. There are some organic growers who mulch instead of using a cover crop, and with as fast as rice hulls break down, wouldn't they make a decent mulch?


----------



## Joedank (May 8, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> hey all, I was wondering if there's any hope left for my lady. I switched her to flowering after I thought I got rid of my gnats. then somehow my timer got fucked up and I think it might have been on 24 hours. I fixed it amd now she is barely switching, amd slowly losing more leaves. any help? I tried an ewc molasses tea too


looks fine to me ... just cover the soil with a sheet of plastic wrap or panda film and only take it off for waterings...


----------



## Scotch089 (May 8, 2015)

greenghost420 said:


> are mars panels that bad? lol


Yes... 

It is the definition of what you don't want. You would hate the tech if you ran it as a "judgement batch" and unless you knew the potential or believed you would never look at leds again. I've been there -_-

No name drivers, no name emitters, a china rebranded by 5 different companies fast cash money sucking panel. 

Probably shitty thin heatsinks with faulty fans and overpowered leds that will burn up at the current they're driven within 2 years. Shitty spectrum that is based upon the original myth that leds were efficient because they focused their light on the "important" wavelengths. Which to tell you, fucking stunts growth and bleaches if too much blue is used. No catalyst middle spec. No balance. 

Heard shit on their customer support. If your panel DOES go out within the warranty they just send you replacement parts with no directions. 

I glass pane between the emitters is a cosmetic fuck up, takes away from efficiency (how much photons are actually going anywhere) no clue how many but every bit counts. 

I've been here with all of it... bleaching, leds going out, fans dying, fans' fins breaking themselves off, not grounded with a short that shocked me every time.., I've torn apart multiple tiers of panels and the quality is the only thing that matters. From progrow to apache. 

Sorry. Rant over. Best option is diy if you are at ALL someone who works in your garage and tinkes or fixes shit around your house. There is no reason you can't do it. Next to that brands like Apache Tech, Area 51, Optic Vero, even fuckin bml are soooo much more worth your time and money. First three I would seriously look into. Optic Vero is on top of the age and area 51 is about to release a similar panel with similar options for emitters but probably driven much more efficiently (less power, but more photons per w of power) 

Diy fo life. Thank you dudes over there. You rock


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

^^^ Oh cmon lets face it mars does the job ??? its pretty affordable for new grower or someone that might not have lots of money ,, with advancements in LED tech i wouldn't be surprised COB is outdated in another years time yeah think ???
bottom line look on the tube appears many Mars LED lights are getting it done shit i remember talking to DJ short and him mentioning he used a single desk light to grow weed his first time
And also to boot if you look in the LED thread cheap LED's 400 - 600 appears mars is built pretty good ??? if realstyles took a hammer to a MARS check out his vid 

just saying


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## Scotch089 (May 9, 2015)

They'll grow something. But not what anyone is looking for. 

Cobs will be ooutdated by progress in the tech. But they also release upgrades like the cxa-> cxbs, new bins, Vero v2s etc. 

My point was those big names (cree bridgelux and osram) are the ones yoy need to stick with. And 95% of companies lie and advertise they use these emitters, when even if they really do - it's only of one color so they are able to say they use it without being a COMPLETE line of bullshit. The companies I mentioned are the only that are able to be proven or come out and lay all the info on the table because they have nothing to hide. They are proud of the work they've put in to making a REAL led panel. 

DIY is just that, you don't have to run them as efficiently as possible (more cost) you can run them slightly more efficient than hps, still save on power used, not worry about life span, and still be more than happy with the results. A couple emitters and the right drivers and you're off. It's up to the user to decide how in depth they want to make their light. What spectrum how much power etc.


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

And what most of it being made where Indonesia, china , Japan , Taiwan, they must be junk also ??? So what specifically lol and they grow something that we are not looking for ??? dude Weed is weed strains are strains that is a hypocritical post you just made TBO LED is just another religious following seriously now


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## Scotch089 (May 9, 2015)

I guess I'm not getting what you're saying.... most of our shit is imported so regardless you're going to be putting something from somewhere in your own panel. But at least you know the quality control put into it and know the chance of failure significantly more than relying someone worried about the margin of profit. And you can make it exactly how you want to fit your space? 

Dono what the problem is... no hostility on this end


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

Here is some food for thought There are several colors used in LED's that are not made in the US. It's like a company "claiming" they use Cree diodes, which in some cases they are. Fact is, Cree only makes about 2 of the colors used in say a 7 band array. So the first question to a company using Cree should be, ok so what do you use for the other 6 colors outside of white?

Fact is, If you're being told that a light is using all US diodes and everything else, you are being lied to.


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## Scotch089 (May 9, 2015)

I'm not sure any of the companies I've referenced are stating they are using US emitters. I don't think any one is that gullible.

But the companies that are using red AND white emitters from one company (cree or nichia) can come out and prove the part number (bin) and some users have even went far enough to magnify the chips and verify them. 

It's the companies using red blue orange green etc. That yoy need to worry about. Sorry psu lol. I come from monos. But chances are one company does not Make all of the colors. And, it holds to the old myth that those are the only emitters you need to make the "secret sauce spectrum" which is sales hype. 

Sorry man. Just sayin


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## Scotch089 (May 9, 2015)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-cxa3070-cree-cob-build-frankensteined-with-a-marshydro.870234/#post-11576275

Mars mod thread ^

Person more knowledgeable than me Just made the point I'm getting at...

"Should be around 7100 lumen's each, but better yet....1.4 amps x 37.3 volts = 52 watts

Cree = 104 ish watts @42% efficiency equals roughly 43-44 PAR watts...
Mars = is kind of a guess...lets say 30% @170? watts = 51 PAR watts
-*about the same amount of PAR watts, but it takes 58% more energy from the Mars to equal your Cree's!!!!!!! *

Remember this about lumens, they are a photometric measurement, so a measure of how light is seen by the eye, not necessarily all light....
*Heavy blues can skew a Lumen count since blues will have more lumens than red spectrums...So you could have two different lamps, drawing different wattages, but output the same lumens....One is skewed towards blue and using less power, one is skewed towards red and using more power....not a good indicator at all...."*


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## greenghost420 (May 9, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Yes...
> 
> It is the definition of what you don't want. You would hate the tech if you ran it as a "judgement batch" and unless you knew the potential or believed you would never look at leds again. I've been there -_-
> 
> ...


yes i can make one just been to lazy lol guess its time! thanks for the breakdown, guess ill be frankensteining this mars panel.


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

You should take your led talk to the led section really lol Its irrelevant in this section bottom line mars grows plants prices are decent and thats all that matters like comparing CRI ratings for a cree cob 5 k @ 80cri to a CMH or plasma that are in the the mid 90's when really defining what the best light source closest to the SUN being were really are mimic ing the sun the best we can


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## Scotch089 (May 9, 2015)

Lol someone asked dude. I Gave Time for someone to reply. Didn't. So I stepped in to save someone the trouble. MY BAD. I'm well aware where I'm at. LED talk is done. But just for the record. I think 3000 90cri cxbs (my next purchase when top bin becomes available) is probably a bit closer to the sun than what mars is running. 

Take care, shame you're mad


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

Bro not mad at all truthfully i chuckle when LED are boasted and truthfully there good for tat closet grower with out a doubt cheers have a nice day


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## greenghost420 (May 9, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Lol someone asked dude. I Gave Time for someone to reply. Didn't. So I stepped in to save someone the trouble. MY BAD. I'm well aware where I'm at. LED talk is done. But just for the record. I think 3000 90cri cxbs (my next purchase when top bin becomes available) is probably a bit closer to the sun than what mars is running.
> 
> Take care, shame you're mad


like you said, someone asked, not ur fault. im sorry for the derailment!


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## hyroot (May 9, 2015)

I laugh when people say leds are only for the closet grower. If led is good enough to grow one big plant. Its good enough to grow a 100 plants. Just add more panels. Same with hid. One hps wont cover a 100 plants. .. any light that appears blurple is not close to the sun. Close to the sun is like being outside. Ie white light. Mars will grow plants decently. But higher end panels will do a better job. And at half the watts. If you are too broke to go with high end led. Then go with CMH or hps until you can afford the quality lighting. Also don't get conned by lower end companies that charge 5 -10 times more than the quality lights. Like black dog, advanced led, lumigrow, worst of all lush

led talk does belong in this thread. We're about the environment, longevity and sustainability and no toxic anything. Led is far more environmentally friendly than hps. Mo mercury bulbs to toss. No ballasts to toss , not using excess electricity.


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I laugh when people say leds are only for the closet grower. If led is good enough to grow one big plant. Its good enough to grow a 100 plants. Just add more panels. Same with hid. One hps wont cover a 100 plants. .. any light that appears blurple is not close to the sun. Close to the sun is like being outside. Ie white light. Mars will grow plants decently. But higher end panels will do a better job. And at half the watts. If you are too broke to go with high end led. Then go with CMH or hps until you can afford the quality lighting. Also don't get conned by lower end companies that charge 5 -10 times more than the quality lights. Like black dog, advanced led, lumigrow, worst of all lush
> 
> led talk does belong in this thread. We're about the environment, longevity and sustainability and no toxic anything. Led is far more environmentally friendly than hps. Mo mercury bulbs to toss. No ballasts to toss , not using excess electricity.


Care to show us the one big plant 3 pounder ??? 1 pounder possibly ???? i consider any plant yielding over 1 pound dry pretty big ... Have you grown one that size with a single LED unit ??? i can show you lots of 1 plant 1 - 3 pound 1 light HPS grow its all over the net ..
you mention LED is good to grow 100 plants just add more LED units at what cost ??? here 80 plant grow using 1 k then around 4 - 5 th week adding another 1 k HPS 76 plants total 2 k 7 pounds dry that is litterally 30 pounds wet 7 pounds 300 bucks for 2 magnetic ballasts ( 150.00 bucks 1 k bulb included )
Power consumption 100 bucks to veg 5 weeks lets round it up 2 months Flowering 8 weeks 160.00
so 260.00 bucks for 7 pounds of weed 
Truthfully speaking how much would it cost for a person to accomplish that with LED's total cost ?? i mean i want to build a room LED and yield 7 pounds how much ???
i mean really for instance i pull 2.5 pounds dry per 1k with my eyes closed that is 10 pounds wet buds in 5x5 area where i run 1 k

Being everyone is saying its so much more effcient wouldn't 3 times more efficient be the key number how many LED grows you see puling 3 GPW this should be not uncommon really if you factor in everything


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## hyroot (May 9, 2015)

no one has grown 1 plant indoors that pulls 3 pounds. The large indoor recorded is just over a pound for one plant

hps is not 3 times efficient. Its about 20%-30% efficient. Meaning a 1000w produces 300w of light and 700w of heat. If.hps.was 3 times more efficient it would not produce any heat. I average 1-1¼ pounds for 460w over a 4x5

you might get 3 pounds over those 2 lights. Maybe 1 but not one.plant. Of course you are not doing organics either. If I used chems. I could easily triple my yield.

1 of 4 5 foot plants under one light. Should pull about 6 zips when done.



you can't compare grows unless everything is exactly the same.

same strains, same veg time, same lighting, same environment, same watering schedule.same amount of water used. Same temps, same humidity, etc... One factor different can make a world of difference.


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

Hmm Here is a couple of 3 pound plants


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## abe supercro (May 9, 2015)




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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

owe here another one 40 oz from one 600 watt 1.86 GPW


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## Pattahabi (May 9, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Care to show us the one big plant 3 pounder ??? 1 pounder possibly ???? i consider any plant yielding over 1 pound dry pretty big ... Have you grown one that size with a single LED unit ??? i can show you lots of 1 plant 1 - 3 pound 1 light HPS grow its all over the net ..
> you mention LED is good to grow 100 plants just add more LED units at what cost ??? here 80 plant grow using 1 k then around 4 - 5 th week adding another 1 k HPS 76 plants total 2 k 7 pounds dry that is litterally 30 pounds wet 7 pounds 300 bucks for 2 magnetic ballasts ( 150.00 bucks 1 k bulb included )
> Power consumption 100 bucks to veg 5 weeks lets round it up 2 months Flowering 8 weeks 160.00
> so 260.00 bucks for 7 pounds of weed
> ...


I'll start off by saying I'm an HID user, always have been. With that said, your tone is ridiculous, your plants look like hell, and this is the organic section. I'd be embarrassed to post a pict with yellow crusty leaves like that. Is that even an organic grow?

I think scotch has a perfectly legit point about the quality of LED's, some of us would like to hear what he has to say.



P-


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

So your saying if it was grown organically it would be healthier lol or yield more ?? i grow both ways and the yellowing or what ver could be due to flushing and end of flowering For some its called HARVEST time  
this Vid is just for you


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'll start off by saying I'm an HID user, always have been. With that said, your tone is ridiculous, your plants look like hell, and this is the organic section. I'd be embarrassed to post a pict with yellow crusty leaves like that. Is that even an organic grow?
> 
> I think scotch has a perfectly legit point about the quality of LED's, some of us would like to hear what he has to say.
> 
> ...


But being your such a avid organic enthusiast,, whats your concept of adding lets say Bacon grease to your compost good idea ???


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## hyroot (May 9, 2015)

chemically you can force big buds. With natural organics (no fake organics, bottled snake oil). Yield is completely dependent on genetics. Yes plants are much healthier and greener with organics. Notice my pic on the last post didn't have any fade or one yellow leaf. Its a week out from chop.

organics is about feeding microbes. In turn the microbes break everything down and feed the plant. An ecosystem of bacteria, fungi, enzymes, beneath the surface.

using bottles labeled organics (lies). Is not organic. Those are derived from organic material then processed with chemicals and preservatives then bottled with mostly water.


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## 4ftRoots (May 9, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> But being your such a avid organic enthusiast,, whats your concept of adding lets say Bacon grease to your compost good idea ???


Bad. Bacon grease is an oil and can not be broken down without being digested. For all I know at least.


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## Scotch089 (May 9, 2015)

Later I'm at a drive in waiting for avengers to start.


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

quite the contrary ,, Fats feed fungi...only fungi build true humus, true humus is like 40% fat, digested over and over increasing the fat content. Bacon fats contains thiamin, vitamin B zinc and selenium, which play a crucial role in plants
Thiamine diphosphate (vitamin B(1)) plays a fundamental role as an enzymatic cofactor in universal metabolic pathways including glycolysis, the pentose phosphate pathway, and the tricarboxylic acid cycle. In addition, thiamine diphosphate has recently been shown to have functions other than as a cofactor in response to abiotic and biotic stress in plants. Recently, several steps of the plant thiamine biosynthetic pathway have been characterized, and a mechanism of feedback regulation of thiamine biosynthesis via riboswitch has been unraveled.
Selenium is also a important trace element that not many are aware of
So don't kid your self ....
Have you ever heard of bokasi composting ????

But lets take this a step further being humans and plants you could say are closely related wouldn't you think ????

The next favorite foods to make energy after sugars, are fats. Fats are stored in our fat cells as triglycerides, just like how glucose is stored as glycogen in our liver and muscles. Triglycerides are made of three saturated fatty acids. Remember a fatty acid is just a long chain of carbons with hydrogens attached. Fatty acids are always an even number of carbon atoms long. They can be 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 24 carbons and so on. You’ll never find a FA that’s an odd number of carbons. What happens is that this fatty acid is broken up two carbons at a time which turns it into the two-carbon acetyl sugar. This is called a beta oxidation reaction. Then they are broken down in the krebs cycle as if they were sugars.

We know a fatty acid is not a small molecule such as glucose which is 6 carbon atoms long. It’s more like, say, 24 carbons long so that would form a whopping 12 acetyl sugars and since it was a triglyceride to begin with, there would be three fatty acids. Imagine that! The catabolism of a triglyceride will create 36 acetyl sugars at once and it will flood the system and they can’t go through the krebs cycle fast enough so some of these acetyl sugars become keto acids. These tend to be formed when the body is breaking down fats faster than normal. Each gram of fat provides twice as much energy as carbs or protein. Anytime there’s an increased rate of fat break down, there’s more keto acids (aka ketone bodies). Note that since the fats are turned into acetyl sugars that enter the krebs cycle, that means they HAVE to have oxygen. Sugars are the only foods that can be broken apart without the need for oxygen.

Catabolism of fat –> Formation of ketoacids (“ketone bodies”)

Marathon runners say running the last 6 miles is harder than the first 20. The expression commonly used is said to hit “the wall.” It feels like you can’t move. There’s a number of theories but one of them is that you’ve used up all your sugars and now you’ve switched to fats because you HAVE to use oxygen to generate ATP. At least before with sugars you were at least making some energy.

The Catabolism of Proteins

Proteins are the least favorite food to use as energy but if the body needs to, it will. Proteins are made up of amino acids so when they are digested, we are left with hundreds or thousands of amino acids.
It begins with a carbon atom, attached to one side is an amino group, on the other side is an acid group (COOH), third a hydrogen. Where they differ is what’s attached in place of “R.”

In order to use amino acids as energy, you need to convert them to sugars. Sugars are made of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Fats are mostly carbon and hydrogens. Amino acids have carbon atoms, hydrogen, oxygen and NITROGEN atoms.

If we are going to turn amino acids into sugars, we have to remove this nitrogen to turn it into sugar. The process of removing that amino group is called deamination (taking away the amino group, NH2). When you remove that NH2, you actually form NH3 (Ammonia). Then in your liver, this ammonia is turned into Urea which is basically a carbon and oxygen with two amino groups. Your liver releases this urea into the blood stream and is the major organic waste carried in our blood stream. When they clinically measure the amount of urea in your blood, that is commonly known as the BUN level. BUN stands for Blood Urea Nitrogen (Urea contains Nitrogen). This blood is then filtered by our kidneys and appears in our urine as the major organic waste of our urine.
Hence the saying piss on your plants ,,,

So we’ve explained how amino groups are removed so it doesn’t have nitrogen so chemically we are left with carbons, hydrogens and oxygens like a sugar. What is this new amino-acid-minus-the-amine-group called? Now that it doesn’t have the amino group, it’s still an acid and it’s called a keto acid (aka “ketone bodies”). The ketoacid can be reversibly formed into acetyl sugar.

Interesting plants make ATP ????
but do plants make KETO acids ????

The accurate estimation of the a-keto acids present
in plant tissues is imnportant because these acids
occupy a central position in the metabolism of the
plant and thus may be vital to our understanding
of the physiological conditions which govern the
storage of many fruits and vegetables.

There you learned something new today Animal fats are organic from a living thing there fore it can be composted some fats compost faster then others mono saturated poly saturated
and most importantly plants have a Kreb cycle


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## a mongo frog (May 9, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'll start off by saying I'm an HID user, always have been. With that said, your tone is ridiculous, your plants look like hell, and this is the organic section. I'd be embarrassed to post a pict with yellow crusty leaves like that. Is that even an organic grow?
> 
> I think scotch has a perfectly legit point about the quality of LED's, some of us would like to hear what he has to say.
> 
> ...


You'd be embarrassed to show those yields?


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## greenghost420 (May 9, 2015)

3lbs of shit isnt as good as a lb of dank


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

Interesting,,,, but really whats the chances you really know what dank weed is I would probably place bets your the type that purchases fox farm and think your a organic farmer lol hey ??


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## greenghost420 (May 9, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Interesting,,,, but really whats the chances you really know what dank weed is I would probably place bets your the type that purchases fox farm and think your a organic farmer lol hey ??


not in awhile. hey! got any bigbloom?


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## Pattahabi (May 9, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> quite the contrary ,, Fats feed fungi...only fungi build true humus, true humus is like 40% fat, digested over and over increasing the fat content. Bacon fats contains thiamin, vitamin B zinc and selenium, which play a crucial role in plants
> Thiamine diphosphate (vitamin B(1)) plays a fundamental role as an enzymatic cofactor in universal metabolic pathways including glycolysis, the pentose phosphate pathway, and the tricarboxylic acid cycle. In addition, thiamine diphosphate has recently been shown to have functions other than as a cofactor in response to abiotic and biotic stress in plants. Recently, several steps of the plant thiamine biosynthetic pathway have been characterized, and a mechanism of feedback regulation of thiamine biosynthesis via riboswitch has been unraveled.
> Selenium is also a important trace element that not many are aware of
> So don't kid your self ....
> ...


You sound butt hurt. Didn't even answer my question. Is that an organic grow? Or are you just trolling cause someone bashed your favorite LED brand?



a mongo frog said:


> You'd be embarrassed to show those yields?


Not if the plants looked healthy. Those poor things look abused.

P-


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## a mongo frog (May 9, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> You sound butt hurt. Didn't even answer my question. Is that an organic grow? Or are you just trolling cause someone bashed your favorite LED brand?
> 
> 
> Not if the plants looked healthy. Those poor things look abused.
> ...


Some one bashed my favorite led brand. And I'm not happy about that. Im not sure what I'm going to do.


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## Pattahabi (May 9, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> quite the contrary ,, Fats feed fungi...only fungi build true humus, true humus is like 40% fat, digested over and over increasing the fat content. Bacon fats contains thiamin, vitamin B zinc and selenium, which play a crucial role in plants
> Thiamine diphosphate (vitamin B(1)) plays a fundamental role as an enzymatic cofactor in universal metabolic pathways including glycolysis, the pentose phosphate pathway, and the tricarboxylic acid cycle. In addition, thiamine diphosphate has recently been shown to have functions other than as a cofactor in response to abiotic and biotic stress in plants. Recently, several steps of the plant thiamine biosynthetic pathway have been characterized, and a mechanism of feedback regulation of thiamine biosynthesis via riboswitch has been unraveled.
> Selenium is also a important trace element that not many are aware of
> So don't kid your self ....
> ...


Nice copy and paste btw...

http://antranik.org/the-catabolism-of-fats-and-proteins-for-energy/


P-


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## hyroot (May 9, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> Some one bashed my favorite led brand. And I'm not happy about that. Im not sure what I'm going to do.



weren't you running CMH or mh for a min.... Last year sometime. Or maybe I'm thinking of someone else with a similar avatar.


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## Darth Vapour (May 9, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> You sound butt hurt. Didn't even answer my question. Is that an organic grow? Or are you just trolling cause someone bashed your favorite LED brand?
> 
> 
> Not if the plants looked healthy. Those poor things look abused.
> ...


I grow both ways 


Pattahabi said:


> You sound butt hurt. Didn't even answer my question. Is that an organic grow? Or are you just trolling cause someone bashed your favorite LED brand?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But hurt lol no no i do not use LED at all as for your question i do both organic / and chem we order our soils by the tandem truck 48 YARDS PER SEASON let alone 20,000 + in skids of amendments kinda out of your league i would bet ??? 
I honeslty think you wouldn't know the difference between a abused plant if it slapped you in the face lol. in all honesty i know i know you think you da bomb grower don't yeah ??? oh here some more unhealthy plants for you lmao i think your out of your league there hunny


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## Midwest Weedist (May 10, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> I grow both ways
> 
> But hurt lol no no i do not use LED at all as for your question i do both organic / and chem we order our soils by the tandem truck 48 YARDS PER SEASON let alone 20,000 + in skids of amendments kinda out of your league i would bet ???
> I honeslty think you wouldn't know the difference between a abused plant if it slapped you in the face lol. in all honesty i know i know you think you da bomb grower don't yeah ??? oh here some more unhealthy plants for you lmao i think your out of your league there hunny


People like you piss me off. Take your ego and go to another thread, or better yet another forum. You sound like every other jackass stuck in a perpetual dick measuring contest with everyone they see.


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## a mongo frog (May 10, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> People like you piss me off. Take your ego and go to another thread, or better yet another forum. You sound like every other jackass stuck in a perpetual dick measuring contest with everyone they see.


What was it for you, the organic tree and shrub farm or the i ponic 600?


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

a mongo frog said:


> What was it for you, the organic tree and shrub farm or the i ponic 600?


the 
iponic 600 did me in i want one so bad it hurts my spincter ....
i was all *DAMN
still dont mean i would feed my plants like he does...his runoff kills fish and contributes to the SALTONSEA*


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## Darth Vapour (May 10, 2015)

Actually Joe i have 0 runoff i do a 4 day cycles 34 Gallon mediums 
and the iponic is the bomb can be 6000 miles away adjust anything via phone 

Another rationale for buying organic is that it is supposedly better for the natural environment. But the low yields of organic agriculture in real-world settings – typically 20-50% below yields from conventional agriculture – impose various stresses on farmland and increase water consumption substantially. According to a recent British meta-analysis, ammonia emissions, nitrogen leaching, and nitrous-oxide emissions per unit of output were higher in organic systems than in conventional agriculture, as were land use and the potential for eutrophication – adverse ecosystem responses to the addition of fertilizers and wastes – and acidification.

An anomaly of how “organic” is defined is that the designation does not actually focus on the food’s quality, composition, or safety. Rather, it comprises a set of acceptable practices and procedures that a farmer _intends_ to use. For example, chemical pesticide or pollen from genetically engineered plants wafting from an adjacent field onto an organic crop does not affect the harvest’s status. EU rules are clear that food may be labeled as organic as long as “the ingredients containing [genetically modified organisms] entered the products unintentionally” and amount to less than 0.9% of their content.

Finally, many who are seduced by the romance of organic farming ignore its human consequences. American farmer Blake Hurst offers this reminder: “Weeds continue to grow, even in polycultures with holistic farming methods, and, without pesticides, hand weeding is the only way to protect a crop.” The backbreaking drudgery of hand weeding often falls to women and children.

Of course, organic products should be available for people who feel that they must have and can afford them. But the simple truth is that buying non-organic is far more cost-effective, more humane, and more environmentally responsible.


Read more at http://www.project-syndicate.org/co...about-organic-agriculture#0xkVf8fksJTS7ifC.99


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## greenghost420 (May 10, 2015)

what a load.... cost effective? i spent like 150 on the foxfarm shit few years ago. that lasts 6 months to a year. then i spent 100 on ammendments , those lasted me 2+years. im not an organic expert but this is simple math....


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

i AM STRIVING FOR BIODYNAMICS . YOU HAVE NO RUNOFF FROM UNDERCURRENT SYSTEMS??? AG in the E.U. is hit or miss.... weeks of clouds lead to buildup of leaf nitrates and nitrites in ANY system in ANY counrty at any time . organic or not (chem sysems espcally) i just argue that all growing should be SUN based and SOIL based for the sake of us all ... just look at the salton sea BIOdynamics could have helped avoid all that mess..
the artical you quote makes no space for closed loop BIOdynamic AG including aquaponics sysems that i am implementing in my own life...


Darth Vapour said:


> Actually Joe i have 0 runoff i do a 4 day cycles 34 Gallon mediums
> and the iponic is the bomb can be 6000 miles away adjust anything via phone
> 
> Another rationale for buying organic is that it is supposedly better for the natural environment. But the low yields of organic agriculture in real-world settings – typically 20-50% below yields from conventional agriculture – impose various stresses on farmland and increase water consumption substantially. According to a recent British meta-analysis, ammonia emissions, nitrogen leaching, and nitrous-oxide emissions per unit of output were higher in organic systems than in conventional agriculture, as were land use and the potential for eutrophication – adverse ecosystem responses to the addition of fertilizers and wastes – and acidification.
> ...


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## Darth Vapour (May 10, 2015)

Lets be truthfully honest here from scratch soil is the least expensive ,, the average organic grower does not have access to a farm , so its lowes , Rona , home depot, or some garden center 
where pending on product 15 - 50 percent mark up organic growing is not really cheap
by the time to buy the amendments gouging you 12 - 20 bucks for small amounts 1 kg - 2 kg products before you really know it your easy over hundred bucks .. Remember these companies are in it for the money nothing else. that is how we survive with a small window in summer ... 
proper soil does take time years actually if one was to go by mother natures rules being self sustaining being Natural
But being humans we again get our dirty fingers involved and speed things up is this actually deemed tru organics making teas top dressing ,etc.. i know i am nit picking here but non of the less just saying


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## greenghost420 (May 10, 2015)

i just bought all my shit from build a soil. spent about 250ish. few things from ebay. got like 20 different things. fuck lowes!


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Lets be truthfully honest here from scratch soil is the least expensive ,, the average organic grower does not have access to a farm , so its lowes , Rona , home depot, or some garden center
> where pending on product 15 - 50 percent mark up organic growing is not really cheap
> by the time to buy the amendments gouging you 12 - 20 bucks for small amounts 1 kg - 2 kg products before you really know it your easy over hundred bucks .. Remember these companies are in it for the money nothing else. that is how we survive with a small window in summer ...
> proper soil does take time years actually if one was to go by mother natures rules being self sustaining being Natural
> But being humans we again get our dirty fingers involved and speed things up is this actually deemed tru organics making teas top dressing ,etc.. i know i am nit picking here but non of the less just saying


still no run off from your undercurrent (DWC) hydro setup ? or were those someone elses pics??


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## Darth Vapour (May 10, 2015)

telling you no run off as PH, EC levels stay uniform with a top up res,, and Float valve fed to main res. ( Reverse circulated ) i use drain valve to reverse circulate between both holding tank and main res
maintaining proper everything if i want to bump up EC levels i adjust dosers to do so and it will slowly over few circulations get it to what i want again maintaining PH at all times ,,,, being it is being added on other end of modules and in front of keeping it pretty in sink or EC fluctuations
i will shortly start a thread just waiting on 32 site Double barrel UCDB 13 gallon system will be total 650 gallon system closed looped,,, All active volume mini dosers, commercial grade air cooled hot or cold chillers 15 K grow that will be out together and couple trial runs prior to fall actual start up


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## churchhaze (May 10, 2015)

This thread isn't about what's better, natural vs synthetics, it's about ROLS. RIU is in major need of better moderation.

(Although to be fair, organic heads should stop with the "wasted money on chemicals" and "My product is automatically superior" crap to stop baiting it. You will no doubt get synthetic growers arguing their costs and quality.)


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## genuity (May 10, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> This thread isn't about what's better, natural vs synthetics, it's about ROLS. RIU is in major need of better moderation.
> 
> (Although to be fair, organic heads should stop with the "wasted money on chemicals" and "My product is automatically superior" crap to stop baiting it. You will no doubt get synthetic growers arguing their costs and quality.)


It's hard to moderate beliefs...see,it don't even sound right


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## churchhaze (May 10, 2015)

genuity said:


> It's hard to moderate beliefs...see,it don't even sound right


Isn't this a sticky thread? Let's say I wanted to try out a ROLS grow. I'm a DWC guy. There's 278 pages on this thread.. I see the first one about how to do ROLS, and how chemicals destroy the environment and hurt your wallet. If this thread isn't supposed to be an instructional, it should probably be de-sticked, or closed after the guide is done. I see 2 groups comparing their expensive growing methods and arguing that the other is more expensive, and all I want to do is show off my DIY nutes, also unrelated to ROLS. Is this the place to do it? Because when I say you all waste money on nutrients, you tell me nutrients is such a small price anyway, it doesn't matter... then go looking to find cheaper nutrients.

I also don't spend my time in the autoflowering section ridiculing people, without listening to a thing they have to say back to me.

The whole point of the smashing florescent thread was to pick a weak target no one likes that we can all hate together! lol


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (May 10, 2015)




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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

i woke up today wanting to post about the biodynamic soil innocculent i got for my comopst heap from jporterinsitute.
treats a metric ton , used it last year and man the compost smells great ! its alot of componets and stirring but my soil is like next level now lol... will share more if anyone cares . alot of voodoo involed that i love ... i always thought innuculants were a joke till i started bokashi and composting hot . JPI stuff got my compost cooking just right and black as night....


churchhaze said:


> This thread isn't about what's better, natural vs synthetics, it's about ROLS. RIU is in major need of better moderation.
> 
> (Although to be fair, organic heads should stop with the "wasted money on chemicals" and "My product is automatically superior" crap to stop baiting it. You will no doubt get synthetic growers arguing their costs and quality.)


then i saw the insults and had to fire back .... i think all plant nutes have there place but derivitives of the oil industry should be avoided....


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## Medipuffs (May 10, 2015)

I'm starting up a no till bed. I have been recycling my organic soil for a few years. My mix doesn't have peat in it and i want to know if i can add extra aeration to my soil mix to make up for what the peat would be needed for? (i have good cec and drainage with my soil) i am just worried about compaction after watering it for a few grows. I am going to be using hydroton instead of perlite and will be using a generous amount to ensure good oxygen levels in the soil with proper topdressing and amending.

Thanks for the help


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

Medipuffs said:


> I'm starting up a no till bed. I have been recycling my organic soil for a few years. My mix doesn't have peat in it and i want to know if i can add extra aeration to my soil mix to make up for what the peat would be needed for? (i have good cec and drainage with my soil) i am just worried about compaction after watering it for a few grows. I am going to be using hydroton instead of perlite and will be using a generous amount to ensure good oxygen levels in the soil with proper topdressing and amending.
> 
> Thanks for the help


awsome ! i like to add a perferated pipe in mine to add air as they do compact over time . unless you use only drip or troph blumats (love them)
any worms in there?? i find bigger aggrigate ends up on top sometimes as worms eat all the (soil) food... 
what about corse sand or chipped ganite they both are reccomened in all my books for soil mixes..


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## Medipuffs (May 10, 2015)

Joedank said:


> awsome ! i like to add a perferated pipe in mine to add air as they do compact over time . unless you use only drip or troph blumats (love them)
> any worms in there?? i find bigger aggrigate ends up on top sometimes as worms eat all the (soil) food...
> what about corse sand or chipped ganite they both are reccomened in all my books for soil mixes..


Thanks

I am going to be putting worms into my bed. I have some greensand in my mix and do use rock dust but its not a large grain/coarse cut its micronized powder (good for nutrients not for aeration haha). Was thinking about making bio char for the first time possibly to add to this as well.


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## Medipuffs (May 10, 2015)

i might do the air pipes in the corners of the bed like soma's old beds


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

Medipuffs said:


> Thanks
> 
> I am going to be putting worms into my bed. I have some greensand in my mix and do use rock dust but its not a large grain/coarse cut its micronized powder (good for nutrients not for aeration haha). Was thinking about making bio char for the first time possibly to add to this as well.


cool!!
no not dust like small screened gravel thats granite or whatever is local ...
i add a grip of biochar charged with a eggshell tea.


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

Medipuffs said:


> i might do the air pipes in the corners of the bed like soma's old beds


Thats just what i was talking about but connecting two corners with a underpipe has proven valuable to me...


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## Medipuffs (May 10, 2015)

Joedank said:


> Thats just what i was talking about but connecting two corners with a underpipe has proven valuable to me...


that makes sense and perforate the cross pipe eh?

yeah buddy, will do with the aggragate. whatever helps me get a good root zone, i am interested in.


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

Medipuffs said:


> that makes sense and perforate the cross pipe eh?
> 
> yeah buddy, will do with the aggragate. whatever helps me get a good root zone, i am interested in.


yup yup i always find worms in the perf pipe they love the air /moist breeding ground...seems ...
lots of other smart folks on here will chime in soon with other options. one i really like is alfalfa topdressing....yum....


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## Darth Vapour (May 10, 2015)

Woo hoo its a great way for gas exchange


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## Joedank (May 10, 2015)

the cowards never started, the weak died on the way, only the strong arrived they were the pioneers..... the air is pulled from a hole in the ceiling that draws from the upstairs living space with a converted bathroom fan then boosted by a 4 inch inline near the bed for sound dampening as the greenhouse is attached to a living space... here are a few pics of the basics i will take better ones at morning time.View attachment 1859414View attachment 1859415View attachment 1859416View attachment 1859417View attachment 1859418View attachment 1859422View attachment 1859424View attachment 1859425View attachment 1859426View attachment 1859427View attachment 1859428View attachment 1859429View attachment 1859430View attachment 1859431View attachment 1859432View attachment 1859433View attachment 1859434View attachment 1859435View attachment 1859436.


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## AllDayToker (May 11, 2015)

I'm looking for a little easier maintenance for cleaning my tea bucket.

Say I'm making just a regular microbe tea with worm castings and molasses. Would I get the same benefits if I put the castings in a nylon stocking, or some sort of teabag deal, as I would letting it free flow in the bucket?


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## Midwest Weedist (May 11, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> I'm looking for a little easier maintenance for cleaning my tea bucket.
> 
> Say I'm making just a regular microbe tea with worm castings and molasses. Would I get the same benefits if I put the castings in a nylon stocking, or some sort of teabag deal, as I would letting it free flow in the bucket?


You won't have the slushy material that will end up in your planters as a pseudo top dress, but yes you'd see the same results. Take what's in the nylon sock after a brew cycle and feed it back to your compost pile for the best results. But you definitely don't have to include your tea materials in your watering/feeding.


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## AllDayToker (May 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> You won't have the slushy material that will end up in your planters as a pseudo top dress, but yes you'd see the same results. Take what's in the nylon sock after a brew cycle and feed it back to your compost pile for the best results. But you definitely don't have to include your tea materials in your watering/feeding.


Alright cool thanks.

Yeah I typically add the slurry at the bottom to my big bucket of compost/soil anyways, so the plants will get it eventually haha.

Trying to do more frequent microbe teas and cleanup was a hassle bending over the tub. I guess it's warming up now so I could take them outside and use the hose but typically like to keep this work inside.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 11, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright cool thanks.
> 
> Yeah I typically add the slurry at the bottom to my big bucket of compost/soil anyways, so the plants will get it eventually haha.
> 
> Trying to do more frequent microbe teas and cleanup was a hassle bending over the tub. I guess it's warming up now so I could take them outside and use the hose but typically like to keep this work inside.


I'm a 3rd floor apartment dweller, I feel you on the clean up lol. I'm trying to figure out a way to make disposable containers for when I make my teas. I'm tired of throwing away panty hose. I've toyed with the organic non-bleached coffee filters but they're too restrictive, break under pressure, and don't hold enough. But they break down fast enough so I might be on the right path.


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## AllDayToker (May 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm a 3rd floor apartment dweller, I feel you on the clean up lol. I'm trying to figure out a way to make disposable containers for when I make my teas. I'm tired of throwing away panty hose. I've toyed with the organic non-bleached coffee filters but they're too restrictive, break under pressure, and don't hold enough. But they break down fast enough so I might be on the right path.


Do you think filter pouches that you would you on an aquarium filter would work?

They are like a sleeve and this plastic frame like thing goes inside, you think would fill it with active carbon, the plastic frame as a clip on top to snap it shut so no carbon goes into the aquarium, and then you slide it into the filter.


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## AllDayToker (May 11, 2015)

Here is a link for what I'm talking about. Could possibly put the material inside in replace of the carbon.

It's design to catch fish gunk but still allow water to pass through.

http://www.thatpetplace.com/whisper-bio-bag-filter-cartridges


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## Midwest Weedist (May 11, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Do you think filter pouches that you would you on an aquarium filter would work?
> 
> They are like a sleeve and this plastic frame like thing goes inside, you think would fill it with active carbon, the plastic frame as a clip on top to snap it shut so no carbon goes into the aquarium, and then you slide it into the filter.


If you can mcgyver yourself up a filter with that stuff, then yes it'll work. The hardest part is getting your engineering skills aligned fine enough to make sure your DIY filter won't leak, break and actually function as it should. I'm a diyer at heart but I suck it up and buy carbon filters because, if you want it to look neat and clean you'll spend as much money on supplies doing so as you would on ordering a filter every 6 months. But I'm also obsessive compulsive about aesthetics, so take that with a massive grain of salt.


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## AllDayToker (May 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If you can mcgyver yourself up a filter with that stuff, then yes it'll work. The hardest part is getting your engineering skills aligned fine enough to make sure your DIY filter won't leak, break and actually function as it should. I'm a diyer at heart but I suck it up and buy carbon filters because, if you want it to look neat and clean you'll spend as much money on supplies doing so as you would on ordering a filter every 6 months. But I'm also obsessive compulsive about aesthetics, so take that with a massive grain of salt.


Oh no I'm not tallking about using it in a filter itself the white catcher. You just said you were looking disposable containers for your teas. You can use those white filters to fill instead of nylon stockings and you can wash up and such and will hold up better then a coffee filter.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 11, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Oh no I'm not tallking about using it in a filter. You just said you were looking disposable containers for your teas. You can use those white filters to fill instead of nylon stockings and you can wash up and such and will hold up better then a coffee filter.


Oh jeez, Hahaha that went right over my head. I should really wait until my brain comprehends what I've read before I start typing. 
That's a good idea though! I guess what I'm looking for though is something I can drop right into a worm bin or on a compost pile.


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## AllDayToker (May 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Oh jeez, Hahaha that went right over my head. I should really wait until my brain comprehends what I've read before I start typing.
> That's a good idea though! I guess what I'm looking for though is something I can drop right into a worm bin or on a compost pile.


Haha, we all do it every once in a while. I get what you're saying now. Something that will break down over time.


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## st0wandgrow (May 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm a 3rd floor apartment dweller, I feel you on the clean up lol. I'm trying to figure out a way to make disposable containers for when I make my teas. I'm tired of throwing away panty hose. I've toyed with the organic non-bleached coffee filters but they're too restrictive, break under pressure, and don't hold enough. But they break down fast enough so I might be on the right path.


Paint straining bags from Home Depot work well


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## Midwest Weedist (May 11, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Haha, we all do it every once in a while. I get what you're saying now. Something that will break down over time.


Exactly, the idea would be use it once then feed it - whatever it is - to the worms or compost bin. No cleaning necessary, just once and done.


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## Forte (May 11, 2015)

Does anyone know how to use quinoa seeds? I put quinoa seeds in water, stirred it, and the water didn't become sour and full of saponins.


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## Pattahabi (May 11, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> But being your such a avid organic enthusiast,, whats your concept of adding lets say Bacon grease to your compost good idea ???


And this is where you miss the boat. Bad idea. Bacon grease in your compost pile = animals in your compost pile. 

It ain't rocket science...


P-


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## keepitcoastal (May 11, 2015)

Paint strainer bags or occasionally I will use multiple dollar store laundry bags inside each other . Those are your best bets. I stopped using socks and panty hose along time ago


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## Pattahabi (May 11, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> I grow both ways
> 
> But hurt lol no no i do not use LED at all as for your question i do both organic / and chem we order our soils by the tandem truck 48 YARDS PER SEASON let alone 20,000 + in skids of amendments kinda out of your league i would bet ???
> I honeslty think you wouldn't know the difference between a abused plant if it slapped you in the face lol. in all honesty i know i know you think you da bomb grower don't yeah ??? oh here some more unhealthy plants for you lmao i think your out of your league there hunny


So yellow dying leaves is a good thing on a plant? Guess people who buy absurd amounts of soil have a different idea of healthy plants. And you don't use LED's, but you're trolling this thread on the subject of LED's? Posting up a bunch of copy/paste bs. You'd think a master grower like yourself would have something better to do with her time.

And let me guess, you don't reuse those 48 YARDS PER SEASON? 



Darth Vapour said:


> Actually Joe i have 0 runoff i do a 4 day cycles 34 Gallon mediums
> and the iponic is the bomb can be 6000 miles away adjust anything via phone
> 
> Another rationale for buying organic is that it is supposedly better for the natural environment. But the low yields of organic agriculture in real-world settings – typically 20-50% below yields from conventional agriculture – impose various stresses on farmland and increase water consumption substantially. According to a recent British meta-analysis, ammonia emissions, nitrogen leaching, and nitrous-oxide emissions per unit of output were higher in organic systems than in conventional agriculture, as were land use and the potential for eutrophication – adverse ecosystem responses to the addition of fertilizers and wastes – and acidification.
> ...


We are all well aware of what a crappy job the USDA is doing. Now go troll somewhere else.

P-


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## Darth Vapour (May 12, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> So yellow dying leaves is a good thing on a plant? Guess people who buy absurd amounts of soil have a different idea of healthy plants. And you don't use LED's, but you're trolling this thread on the subject of LED's? Posting up a bunch of copy/paste bs. You'd think a master grower like yourself would have something better to do with her time.
> 
> And let me guess, you don't reuse those 48 YARDS PER SEASON?
> 
> ...


 Well some most of that soil is sold as in plant  what is any left over plants get re used only after going through the oven  and your points is ??
kinda late here but will school you on the bacon fat tommorow so please come back 
And what she should be doing ?? what she does best on her knees and tonguing the star fish


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## Darth Vapour (May 12, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> And this is where you miss the boat. Bad idea. Bacon grease in your compost pile = animals in your compost pile.
> 
> It ain't rocket science...
> 
> ...


Awe fuck it i school you now there pathetic ,, owe i mean Pattahab lol or how ever you say it haha
Fats feed fungi...only fungi build true humus, true humus is like 40% fat, digested over and over.
Bacon contains thiamin, vitamin B zinc and selenium, which play a crucial role in plants
Thiamine diphosphate (vitamin B(1)) plays a fundamental role as an enzymatic cofactor in universal metabolic pathways including glycolysis, the pentose phosphate pathway, and the tricarboxylic acid cycle. In addition, thiamine diphosphate has recently been shown to have functions other than as a cofactor in response to abiotic and biotic stress in plants. Recently, several steps of the plant thiamine biosynthetic pathway have been characterized, and a mechanism of feedback regulation of thiamine biosynthesis via riboswitch has been unraveled.
Selenium is also a important trace element that not many are aware of
So don't kid your self

http://antranik.org/the-catabolism-o...ns-for-energy/

Plants and humans are function pretty dam close so lets read on 

The next favorite foods to make energy after sugars, are fats. Fats are stored in our fat cells as triglycerides, just like how glucose is stored as glycogen in our liver and muscles. Triglycerides are made of three saturated fatty acids. Remember a fatty acid is just a long chain of carbons with hydrogens attached. Fatty acids are always an even number of carbon atoms long. They can be 12, 14, 16, 18, 20, 24 carbons and so on. You’ll never find a FA that’s an odd number of carbons. What happens is that this fatty acid is broken up two carbons at a time which turns it into the two-carbon acetyl sugar. This is called a beta oxidation reaction. Then they are broken down in the krebs cycle as if they were sugars.

We know a fatty acid is not a small molecule such as glucose which is 6 carbon atoms long. It’s more like, say, 24 carbons long so that would form a whopping 12 acetyl sugars and since it was a triglyceride to begin with, there would be three fatty acids. Imagine that! The catabolism of a triglyceride will create 36 acetyl sugars at once and it will flood the system and they can’t go through the krebs cycle fast enough so some of these acetyl sugars become keto acids. These tend to be formed when the body is breaking down fats faster than normal. Each gram of fat provides twice as much energy as carbs or protein. Anytime there’s an increased rate of fat break down, there’s more keto acids (aka ketone bodies). Note that since the fats are turned into acetyl sugars that enter the krebs cycle, that means they HAVE to have oxygen. Sugars are the only foods that can be broken apart without the need for oxygen.

Catabolism of fat –> Formation of ketoacids (“ketone bodies”)

Marathon runners say running the last 6 miles is harder than the first 20. The expression commonly used is said to hit “the wall.” It feels like you can’t move. There’s a number of theories but one of them is that you’ve used up all your sugars and now you’ve switched to fats because you HAVE to use oxygen to generate ATP. At least before with sugars you were at least making some energy.

The Catabolism of Proteins

Proteins are the least favorite food to use as energy but if the body needs to, it will. Proteins are made up of amino acids so when they are digested, we are left with hundreds or thousands of amino acids.

The picture to your right reminds you of what an amino acid looks like. It begins with a carbon atom, attached to one side is an amino group, on the other side is an acid group (COOH), third a hydrogen. Where they differ is what’s attached in place of “R.”

In order to use amino acids as energy, you need to convert them to sugars. Sugars are made of carbon, hydrogen, and oxygen. Fats are mostly carbon and hydrogens. Amino acids have carbon atoms, hydrogen, oxygen and NITROGEN atoms.

If we are going to turn amino acids into sugars, we have to remove this nitrogen to turn it into sugar. The process of removing that amino group is called deamination (taking away the amino group, NH2). When you remove that NH2, you actually form NH3 (Ammonia). Then in your liver, this ammonia is turned into Urea which is basically a carbon and oxygen with two amino groups. Your liver releases this urea into the blood stream and is the major organic waste carried in our blood stream. When they clinically measure the amount of urea in your blood, that is commonly known as the BUN level. BUN stands for Blood Urea Nitrogen (Urea contains Nitrogen). This blood is then filtered by our kidneys and appears in our urine as the major organic waste of our urine.

So we’ve explained how amino groups are removed so it doesn’t have nitrogen so chemically we are left with carbons, hydrogens and oxygens like a sugar. What is this new amino-acid-minus-the-amine-group called? Now that it doesn’t have the amino group, it’s still an acid and it’s called a keto acid (aka “ketone bodies”). The ketoacid can be reversibly formed into acetyl sugar.

Interesting plants make ATP ????
but do plants make KETO acids ????

The accurate estimation of the a-keto acids present
in plant tissues is imnportant because these acids
occupy a central position in the metabolism of the
plant and thus may be vital to our understanding
of the physiological conditions which govern the
storage of many fruits and vegetables.


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## Darth Vapour (May 12, 2015)

Fat is a biomolecule, they form structural components of cells, apart from serving as energy reservoirs.
Plants contain fat molecules, these molecules make up the cellular membrane and are components of organelles like Chloroplast orMitochondrion.
Plants can also store fat, though their primary storage is in the form of carbohydrates. For example, many plants store Starch in Amyloplast orChloroplast.
Stored lipids is usually found in seed tissues, Embryo or Endosperm. (plant lipids)
However, plants don't have Adipose tissue i.e connective tissue that contains fat cells which is responsible for obesity.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 12, 2015)

Can we block people on here?


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## Joedank (May 12, 2015)

"Feedback regulation of thiamine biosynthesis via riboswitch has been unraveled.
Selenium is also a important trace element that not many are aware of"
rudolf stiner did a talk on selnium and yarrow in 1926 or so ... MANY ARE aware of selniums role as well as BORON and silica. so we make ammended comopost heaps... look up Hugh courtny quantum ag if you want a schooling on how to grow better ...
hand full of Yarrow leaves does this as well as add selnium ... your proving you dont know very much about composting with this post .... bacon grease MELTS in my compost and is GONE in a few days ... SHIT WHOLE CHICKENS only take a week..BUT due to Bact concerns i DONT reccomend this .asaerobic digesters are made for this.. then it goes to the worms for the final step. once worm get it done i call that true hummis...
from a biodynamic site:
*Yarrow (502) Yarrow flowers placed in the stags bladder, hung in the sun during the summer and buried in rich soil during the next winter- this preparation stimulates the potassium, silica and selenium activating bacteria and helps combine sulphur with other substances. This preparation remedies weaknesses in flowering and fruiting and strengthens the plant against insect attack. It aids the soil in connecting to the planetary rhythms.*


Darth Vapour said:


> Awe fuck it i school you now there pathetic ,, owe i mean Pattahab lol or how ever you say it haha
> Fats feed fungi...only fungi build true humus, true humus is like 40% fat, digested over and over.
> Bacon contains thiamin, vitamin B zinc and selenium, which play a crucial role in plants
> Thiamine diphosphate (vitamin B(1)) plays a fundamental role as an enzymatic cofactor in universal metabolic pathways including glycolysis, the pentose phosphate pathway, and the tricarboxylic acid cycle. In addition, thiamine diphosphate has recently been shown to have functions other than as a cofactor in response to abiotic and biotic stress in plants. Recently, several steps of the plant thiamine biosynthetic pathway have been characterized, and a mechanism of feedback regulation of thiamine biosynthesis via riboswitch has been unraveled.
> ...


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## AllDayToker (May 12, 2015)

Alright so panty hoses are alright but a paint strainer is what I should get sounds good.

What's everyones ratio for a basic microbe tea? I do around 1/2 cup of castings and 1/2 tblsp of molasses per gallon. I typically add a little more molasses after the first 24 houra of bubbling.


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## keepitcoastal (May 12, 2015)

Trying new alternatives for pest prevention by trying to make my own soil drenched like so many other on here have. But nothing is knocking out the gnats like some where suggesting. 
Iv been working with various recipes and mixtures using 
Rosemary powder, clove powder, chamomile powder, kelp powder, ground nettles,and horsetail powder. anything else I need? 

Anybody got any recipes that actually work with these ingredients. I think the problem is I haven't been making strong enough batches I need it to go into a 200 gallon res to be watered in. The plants haven't seemed to mind one bit but neither have the gnats. I'm trying to cut out mosquito dunks and powdered bti if possible.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 12, 2015)

keepitcoastal said:


> Trying new alternatives for pest prevention by trying to make my own soil drenched like so many other on here have. But nothing is knocking out the gnats like some where suggesting.
> Iv been working with various recipes and mixtures using
> Rosemary powder, clove powder, chamomile powder, kelp powder, ground nettles,and horsetail powder. anything else I need?
> 
> Anybody got any recipes that actually work with these ingredients. I think the problem is I haven't been making strong enough batches I need it to go into a 200 gallon res to be watered in. The plants haven't seemed to mind one bit but neither have the gnats. I'm trying to cut out mosquito dunks and powdered bti if possible.


Have you looked into fermented plant pesticides? I know you can use garlic (even without fermenting).


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## Midwest Weedist (May 12, 2015)

I hope the moderators won't treat this as heresy or anything lol but Gage green group started up a forum and so far it's nothing but top notch organics. Thought it might be worth a look for those here.


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## AllDayToker (May 12, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I hope the moderators won't treat this as heresy or anything lol but Gage green group started up a forum and so far it's nothing but top notch organics. Thought it might be worth a look for those here.


Got a link?


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## PSUAGRO. (May 12, 2015)

keepitcoastal said:


> Trying new alternatives for pest prevention by trying to make my own soil drenched like so many other on here have. But nothing is knocking out the gnats like some where suggesting.
> Iv been working with various recipes and mixtures using
> Rosemary powder, clove powder, chamomile powder, kelp powder, ground nettles,and horsetail powder. anything else I need?
> 
> Anybody got any recipes that actually work with these ingredients. I think the problem is I haven't been making strong enough batches I need it to go into a 200 gallon res to be watered in. The plants haven't seemed to mind one bit but neither have the gnats. I'm trying to cut out mosquito dunks and powdered bti if possible.


Two inch perlite top dress if they bother you that bad 

Pure peppermint and rosemary oil works too...

Good luck


----------



## hyroot (May 12, 2015)

natural mistik from dragon fly earth medicine is the only foliar you need. It covers everything. Keeps pests away, green lush plants, leaf shine without the oily texture. Works awesome. You'll be blow away. I just add aloe to it.

also silica (AgSil or pro tekt) and aloe will get rid of any pests and keep them away.


dont bothor with dragonfly earth medicines other products. They're ehh... The natural mistik is the only one I like. It kicks ass. Truly natural organic too.


----------



## AllDayToker (May 12, 2015)

I got the one gallon paint strainer figuring I would just tie off the top. Now I see the five gallons ones would fit over my bucket.

Think I should go back and get the 5 gallon or will the 1 gallon paint strainer be ok?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 12, 2015)

hyroot said:


> natural mistik from dragon fly earth medicine is the only foliar you need. It covers everything. Keeps pests away, green lush plants, leaf shine without the oily texture. Works awesome. You'll be blow away. I just add aloe to it.
> 
> also silica (AgSil or pro tekt) and aloe will get rid of any pests and keep them away.
> 
> ...


What all is in it? The mistik I mean


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 12, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Got a link?


http://gagegreen.org/boards/


----------



## hyroot (May 12, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> What all is in it? The mistik I mean


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 12, 2015)

hyroot said:


> View attachment 3417031


Wow!! Nows that's something I'd buy


----------



## Pattahabi (May 13, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Awe fuck it i school you now there pathetic ,, owe i mean Pattahab lol or how ever you say it haha
> Fats feed fungi...only fungi build true humus, true humus is like 40% fat, digested over and over.
> Bacon contains thiamin, vitamin B zinc and selenium, which play a crucial role in plants
> Thiamine diphosphate (vitamin B(1)) plays a fundamental role as an enzymatic cofactor in universal metabolic pathways including glycolysis, the pentose phosphate pathway, and the tricarboxylic acid cycle. In addition, thiamine diphosphate has recently been shown to have functions other than as a cofactor in response to abiotic and biotic stress in plants. Recently, several steps of the plant thiamine biosynthetic pathway have been characterized, and a mechanism of feedback regulation of thiamine biosynthesis via riboswitch has been unraveled.
> ...


You sir are a complete and utter moron. You obviously don't have any outdoor compost piles or you would know better.

P-


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

So will a tied off 1 gallon paint strainer be ok in my 5 gallon bucket? I saw that they had 5 gallon paint strainers but figured it was more then I needed for a couple cups of castings. I then later find out they just pull over the sides of the bucket.

Idk if I should not open the 1 gallon ones and return them for 5 gallon ones, or if the 1 gallons will be fine?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> So will a tied off 1 gallon paint strainer be ok in my 5 gallon bucket? I saw that they had 5 gallon paint strainers but figured it was more then I needed for a couple cups of castings. I then later find out they just pull over the sides of the bucket.
> 
> Idk if I should not open the 1 gallon ones and return them for 5 gallon ones, or if the 1 gallons will be fine?


In my mind I only see the paint strainers being an issue if say they're not deep enough once in your bucket. My precautionary side says take them back and exchange them for no cost but the gas to get there.


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> In my mind I only see the paint strainers being an issue if say they're not deep enough once in your bucket. My precautionary side says take them back and exchange them for no cost but the gas to get there.


Well my idea in the first place was to tie off one of these strainers like you would have to with nylons, so it'd be in there like A teabag, hanging were I'd need it.

I have never bought paint strainers and didn't realized they go over the top to hold.

So pretty much either or would work as long as it's deep enough in there. Both would perform the same correct?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 13, 2015)

I can't come up with a reason that they wouldn't work


AllDayToker said:


> Well my idea in the first place was to tie off one of these strainers like you would have to with nylons, so it'd be in there like A teabag, hanging were I'd need it.
> 
> I have never bought paint strainers and didn't realized they go over the top to hold.
> 
> So pretty much either or would work as long as it's deep enough in there. Both would perform the same correct?


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I can't come up with a reason that they wouldn't work


Alright cool thanks for the help mane! I just always like to have others thoughts before I go through with stuff. I always feel like I will miss something, I tend to do that a lot haha.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Well my idea in the first place was to tie off one of these strainers like you would have to with nylons, so it'd be in there like A teabag, hanging were I'd need it.
> 
> I have never bought paint strainers and didn't realized they go over the top to hold.
> 
> So pretty much either or would work as long as it's deep enough in there. Both would perform the same correct?


I do exactly that. Tie a string around the end of the bag, and then tie the other end off to something else. works fine


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I do exactly that. Tie a string around the end of the bag, and then tie the other end off to something else. works fine



Awesome! Thank you Stow!


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Hey @st0wandgrow while I got ya here. What was the flowering recipe for the kelp/alfalfa tea again. Forgot if it goes to 1/2 cup per gallon each or if I start using more kelp. Cant find the document I stored it in.


NEVERMIND LOL


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Nevermind I just found it! Lol


----------



## Pattahabi (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright so panty hoses are alright but a paint strainer is what I should get sounds good.
> 
> What's everyones ratio for a basic microbe tea? I do around 1/2 cup of castings and 1/2 tblsp of molasses per gallon. I typically add a little more molasses after the first 24 houra of bubbling.


Make sure you have plenty of air, you might be a little heavy on the castings. Personally, I don't put mine in a bag. I like to let it flow freely, and then I strain out at the end if need be. Lots of ways to skin a cat, that just how I do it. 

P-


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Make sure you have plenty of air, you might be a little heavy on the castings. Personally, I don't put mine in a bag. I like to let it flow freely, and then I strain out at the end if need be. Lots of ways to skin a cat, that just how I do it.
> 
> P-


The air is good. I have a pump with a 19lpm rating. Looks like a storm in the ocean with big Ole waves in the bucket haha.

Yeah I usually always let it free float but I am wanting to do more frequent teas so whatever can cut down on time and ease during the clean up I'll take. 

I read somewhere that they saw larger colonies while letting a free float compared to in a bag type deal, but I'll be doing them so frequently I don't think it'll matter. I don't think it was a big difference anyways, but they did notice one.


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> The air is good. I have a pump with a 19lpm rating. Looks like a storm in the ocean with big Ole waves in the bucket haha.
> 
> Yeah I usually always let it free float but I am wanting to do more frequent teas so whatever can cut down on time and ease during the clean up I'll take.
> 
> I read somewhere that they saw larger colonies while letting a free float compared to in a bag type deal, but I'll be doing them so frequently I don't think it'll matter. I don't think it was a big difference anyways, but they did notice one.


Also how much castings and molasses do you use per gallon? I'm interested in seeing what other people do for ratios. I'be heard of people doing upwards of a cup per gallon or more.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Also how much castings and molasses do you use per gallon? I'm interested in seeing what other people do for ratios. I'be heard of people doing upwards of a cup per gallon or more.


I use a heaping cup full of castings to 3 gallons of water. I then add a heaping tablespoon of molases to that. Not saying that's the right way to do it, just the way I do it.


----------



## Pattahabi (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Also how much castings and molasses do you use per gallon? I'm interested in seeing what other people do for ratios. I'be heard of people doing upwards of a cup per gallon or more.


I'm using 3c castings and 3/4c molasses per 10 gallons water when I make acts. Lately I've been doing more of mini acts where I just throw a small handful of castings in, maybe a few drops of molasses, let brew for 24 hours and water. Then I haven't even been cleaning out the buckets other than rinsing them out. and doing it again. I would think about anything within reason will work. Just keep in mind more castings and the paint strainer will require more oxygen to keep the O2 levels high.

P-


----------



## anzohaze (May 13, 2015)

What's type of.leaves are yall using for covering the port to help with moisture. Anything.over the other...


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I'm using 3c castings and 3/4c molasses per 10 gallons water when I make acts. Lately I've been doing more of mini acts where I just throw a small handful of castings in, maybe a few drops of molasses, let brew for 24 hours and water. Then I haven't even been cleaning out the buckets other than rinsing them out. and doing it again. I would think about anything within reason will work. Just keep in mind more castings and the paint strainer will require more oxygen to keep the O2 levels high.
> 
> P-


Alright, some good info to know. 

The 24hr mini sound really interesting. You think that's enough time for microbes to start workin up?


----------



## Pattahabi (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright, some good info to know.
> 
> The 24hr mini sound really interesting. You think that's enough time for microbes to start workin up?


Absolutely! Even a couple of hours will breed microbes. Pretty sure MM said they can reproduce as quickly as every 20 mins.

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 13, 2015)

anzohaze said:


> What's type of.leaves are yall using for covering the port to help with moisture. Anything.over the other...


I just use my compost.
probably 40% redwood needles and 60% maple leaves.
but it's to the point where it just looks like blackened specks of un-identifiable humus, I grab a lil from my second pile for the top so it's more leaves, but I shred the leaves before composting (highly recommend that by the way, done composting in 4-5 months, even in the winter)


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Absolutely! Even a couple of hours will breed microbes. Pretty sure MM said they can reproduce as quickly as every 20 mins.
> 
> P-


That's awesome!


----------



## AllDayToker (May 13, 2015)

Brewin' up a fresh microbe tea with my new bag. Diggin' it already.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> That's awesome!


if I understand it right, every minute you give them oxygen and food, they'll multiply, to an extent of course.
But in theory if one were to bubble for even a couple hrs, i'd imagine they'd reproduce significantly.
Course it's sorta dumb to do it just for a couple hrs, if you went that far, why not at least a day..


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 13, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Brewin' up a fresh microbe tea with my new bag. Diggin' it already.


take that brass nipple out brother, it restricts the air.
No need for it.
get a bigger diameter hose, and you'll be better off, also it seemed to make my pump a lil hotter... which would make sense


----------



## Pattahabi (May 13, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> if I understand it right, every minute you give them oxygen and food, they'll multiply, to an extent of course.
> But in theory if one were to bubble for even a couple hrs, i'd imagine they'd reproduce significantly.
> Course it's sorta dumb to do it just for a couple hrs, if you went that far, why not at least a day..


Sometimes I forget to do it a day ahead. My thought process is a few hours is better then nothing. 

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 13, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Sometimes I forget to do it a day ahead. My thought process is a few hours is better then nothing.
> 
> P-


hell yea, any amount of microbes is gonna only be good, the only thing maybe id' be worried about is if the molasses wasn't all used up..
But i'm sorta paranoid about overdoing it on BSM, I went a lil overboard about 4-5 yrs ago...


----------



## Pattahabi (May 13, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hell yea, any amount of microbes is gonna only be good, the only thing maybe id' be worried about is if the molasses wasn't all used up..
> But i'm sorta paranoid about overdoing it on BSM, I went a lil overboard about 4-5 yrs ago...


Absolutely. When doing small little bubbles like that, I'll either add a few drops of molasses or none. SOmetimes I'll add a pinch of kelp and/or alfalfa. Maybe even a little rock dust.

P-


----------



## zonderkop (May 14, 2015)

i think this website has come up before, but just found a great overview on how to naturally garden (soil mix, IPM, SSTs, ect...): http://www.moderncannabist.com/knowledge/modern-methods

For any new guys out there, don't feel like you have to do everything on his Bloom Schedule. It's a bit intense.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 14, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> i think this website has come up before, but just found a great overview on how to naturally garden (soil mix, IPM, SSTs, ect...): http://www.moderncannabist.com/knowledge/modern-methods
> 
> For any new guys out there, don't feel like you have to do everything on his Bloom Schedule. It's a bit intense.


Wow, that's a handy ass website! I've had a few recipes that I've needed clarification on ratios, not anymore! 

For their teas that use the em1 innoculant, wouldn't a homemade lactobacillus serum work? I mean it's the same thing correct, it's just a form of sugar and the lacto bacterium?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 14, 2015)

Hey guy, I've got a bag of leftover high P Guano that I want to get rid of as I'm making the transition to only using animal byproducts in my compost. I used it to build my first soil and haven't touched it save for a light topdress to my bell peppers. 
Could I use some of it with some lacto to make something highly available? (outdoor gardening use, not for my cannabis ladies). I'm just looking for unique ways to get rid of it instead of just throwing it in someone's garden / compost.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 14, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Hey guy, I've got a bag of leftover high P Guano that I want to get rid of as I'm making the transition to only using animal byproducts in my compost. I used it to build my first soil and haven't touched it save for a light topdress to my bell peppers.
> Could I use some of it with some lacto to make something highly available? (outdoor gardening use, not for my cannabis ladies). I'm just looking for unique ways to get rid of it instead of just throwing it in someone's garden / compost.


I think most of us have some guano leftover...
I use the bejesus out of mine in my compost pile, but it was the high nitrogen one.
Use it in your compost man, it won't hurt anything, couldn't hurt at all.
It's a good organic nutrient. As much as the taboo behind it, it's not bad to have, and such, it IS a good water soluble nutrient, sorta hard to find a phosphorus input that is soluble, most aren't, rock phosphates, bone meals, etc.
I found after I got my recipe down, that I simply don't use it.
BUT for my orchids? and my clerodendrons, it's a must have, especially the orchids.
Literally sprinkle a teensy bit on there, and mist it through with a spray bottle, and there they go, in fact i'd speculate that since orchids grow on the sides of trees that bird and bat shit is what they'd normally get for nutrients..
Ahhh... I digress...


----------



## 4ftRoots (May 14, 2015)

I think I've stumbled upon something interesting!

The great people at bas found this about worm castings
http://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/8787365-some-really-cool-and-effective-insect-control-techniques-using-earthworm-castings
I recommend reading the whole patent. Patent is bs though hahaha

It basically states that worm castings can be used as an insect repellant through spraying and topdressing. However the main enzyme they are looking at is the chitinase enzyme. And they found that the levels of chitinase in plants naturally is not high enough to fend off most pests. So the worm castings being super high in organisms that produce that enzyme is great! 

I literally always have problems with spider mites so I need to try this. I topdress with neem and crab every other a week switching but it just doesn't do it anymore. I am going to try to throw a tbsp of crab and shrimp shell into my compost tea and do a foliar or two on my vegging girls. Chitin is not water soluble but does that sound like a good idea? 

I'll update if mites disappear!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 15, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I think I've stumbled upon something interesting!
> 
> The great people at bas found this about worm castings
> http://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/8787365-some-really-cool-and-effective-insect-control-techniques-using-earthworm-castings
> ...


Oh this doesn't surprise me! Vermicompost (screened castings have worked the best) is my main defense against pests. Before I topdress with neem/karanja I topdress with it. My seedlings are planted in almost 60% vermicompost too. The stuff is worth more than its weight in gold imo


----------



## 4ftRoots (May 15, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Oh this doesn't surprise me! Vermicompost (screened castings have worked the best) is my main defense against pests. Before I topdress with neem/karanja I topdress with it. My seedlings are planted in almost 60% vermicompost too. The stuff is worth more than its weight in gold imo


I never noticed a reduction in mites when topdressing only EWC but that could be because I do not screen them. lots of work. I've bought every essential oil under the sun but the winner was right under my nose. Making a tea as this moment!


----------



## Pattahabi (May 15, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I think I've stumbled upon something interesting!
> 
> The great people at bas found this about worm castings
> http://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/8787365-some-really-cool-and-effective-insect-control-techniques-using-earthworm-castings
> ...


I think many of the people in this thread already knew about the pest suppression of vermicompost. The crab shell tea isn't going to work for mites, use emulsified neem oil.

P-


----------



## 4ftRoots (May 15, 2015)

Never hit me honestly lol. I need it spelled out. but now that I know I can stop wasting time and money with neem oil that has never worked for me ever. I'm pretty excited to foliar with castings. I always do it in the garden kinda but indoors it bugged me to see the plants a little dirty. After all it does not rain inside.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 15, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I never noticed a reduction in mites when topdressing only EWC but that could be because I do not screen them. lots of work. I've bought every essential oil under the sun but the winner was right under my nose. Making a tea as this moment!


I've never had mites (thank insert deity!), so I can't speak for them. But I've noticed that pests like gnats are gone within days, with Bti it takes weeks in heavy amounts. But, not all vermicompost is created equally, so that's something to remember.


4ftRoots said:


> Never hit me honestly lol. I need it spelled out. but now that I know I can stop wasting time and money with neem oil that has never worked for me ever. I'm pretty excited to foliar with castings. I always do it in the garden kinda but indoors it bugged me to see the plants a little dirty. After all it does not rain inside.


It does if you make it! I "make it rain" (haha I couldn't help myself) pure h2o on my plants once or twice a week. So much so that it's similar to a light watering afterwards. My stomata are either full of goodies from a foliar or clean from pure water. Most of the time you can see a light layer of aloe leftover from my foliars in between my "rains". I do it in a slow process too, I literally take a home-use spray bottle and spray 1/8 of what I'd water with over each plant, all the way up to the last two weeks of flower. I'm lucky that I have an average humidity of below 40 percent or else I wouldn't do it that far in flower. I can tell when I don't do this as my leaves feel a bit stiffer, almost as if they're retaining water instead of transpiring. It doesn't matter how often I water and in what amounts, they're always like this if I don't (some of my house plants act similarly). I attribute it to my low rh.


----------



## 4ftRoots (May 15, 2015)

I like it. I'd like to mimic nature more so I may try it. Great advice, thanks!


----------



## foreverflyhi (May 17, 2015)

I just saw a very inspiring documentary on a permaculture technique called Chinampa. Wow this really blew my mind. 




Organics, hydroponics, aquaponics, all in one


----------



## zonderkop (May 19, 2015)

new, probiotic gardening magazine: https://www.joomag.com/en/newsstand/probiotics-cannabis-magazine-may-2015/0039593001428675664


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

Anyone have any clue at all where to find any mutant strains of cannabis? I hate posting unrelated stuff in threads, but this is the only thread it seems like that isn't full of morons lol.
I'd like to get my hands on something like Mongy, ABC, Duckfoot, etc for breeding purposes. But I think I missed the bandwagon for that by almost a decade.


----------



## foreverflyhi (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone have any clue at all where to find any mutant strains of cannabis? I hate posting unrelated stuff in threads, but this is the only thread it seems like that isn't full of morons lol.
> I'd like to get my hands on something like Mongy, ABC, Duckfoot, etc for breeding purposes. But I think I missed the bandwagon for that by almost a decade.


Ooooh honestly in don't, but i do recall one called ABC freak strain, it didn't even look like cannabis, yield and thc was lo, but you could grow it in your front yard with out being detected


----------



## AJAXATAX (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone have any clue at all where to find any mutant strains of cannabis? I hate posting unrelated stuff in threads, but this is the only thread it seems like that isn't full of morons lol.
> I'd like to get my hands on something like Mongy, ABC, Duckfoot, etc for breeding purposes. But I think I missed the bandwagon for that by almost a decade.


Just grow a bunch from seed...run a pack of ten or twenty and you will likely have one or two mutants...especially if you get seeds that are NOT FEMMED and from a breeder that has a longer history amd greater diversity of gear, and thus more recessive profiles built into their strains...


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone have any clue at all where to find any mutant strains of cannabis? I hate posting unrelated stuff in threads, but this is the only thread it seems like that isn't full of morons lol.
> I'd like to get my hands on something like Mongy, ABC, Duckfoot, etc for breeding purposes. But I think I missed the bandwagon for that by almost a decade.



DJ Shorts Blueberry is notorious for mutations.... if you don't mind dropping $150+ for a pack of seeds.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

AJAXATAX said:


> Just grow a bunch from seed...run a pack of ten or twenty and you will likely have one or two mutants...especially if you get seeds that are NOT FEMMED and from a breeder that has a longer history amd greater diversity of gear, and thus more recessive profiles built into their strains...


Oh I've popped hundreds of beans by now and have never found a single mutation, aside from my Yunnan landrace that threw the most perfectly symmetrical 8 bladed leaf.





foreverflyhi said:


> Ooooh honestly in don't, but i do recall one called ABC freak strain, it didn't even look like cannabis, yield and thc was lo, but you could grow it in your front yard with out being detected


If I'm correct, the Mongy strain is where the abc and duckfoot originated. Supposedly the mongy was a Aussie landrace that was crossed with a multitude of indicas and sativas by some old Aussie couple who found, then later gifted it to a friend when they were too old too grow. He supposedly crossed it with a Flo and then those seeds were passed around,especially by Marc Emery (I probably butchered his name). 



st0wandgrow said:


> DJ Shorts Blueberry is notorious for mutations.... if you don't mind dropping $150+ for a pack of seeds.


One day I plan to get my hands on some of djs blue line. And not just for the mutations! I have absolutely loved every single strain that had some of the blue genetics in them.


----------



## MetalHead19 (May 19, 2015)

Hello,
I'm still having trouble understanding how to rejuvenate or recycle soil. How do you know how much amendment to add? Could I use my own nutrient mix? I have seen various methods posted here http://www.moderncannabist.com/knowledge/modern-methods, from Lumper and the first post on this forum but the amounts seem to vary, is it just preference? Also, if you are rejuvenating the soil in between each cycle then is it necessary to topdress during the cycle? Sorry for so many questions but my thoughts get twisted and start to contradict. All and any help is greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
MH


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

MetalHead19 said:


> Hello,
> I'm still having trouble understanding how to rejuvenate or recycle soil. How do you know how much amendment to add? Could I use my own nutrient mix? I have seen various methods posted here http://www.moderncannabist.com/knowledge/modern-methods, from Lumper and the first post on this forum but the amounts seem to vary, is it just preference? Also, if you are rejuvenating the soil in between each cycle then is it necessary to topdress during the cycle? Sorry for so many questions but my thoughts get twisted and start to contradict. All and any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> MH


There's a lot of ways to skin a cat man. Instead of spewing out a bunch of answers, let me ask you some questions first. What size planters do you use, how long do you plan on vegging your plants, what's your soil mix made up of, and do you plan on doing things like aacts, ssts, etc? All these will determine what method you should use to best suit your needs. 
if you'd like to skip the re-ammending stage I suggest you read up on the Korean no-till style of farming a lot of us use. If you prefer to dump out all of your soil, ammend, then repot, that's another story, though quite similar.


----------



## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

MetalHead19 said:


> Hello,
> I'm still having trouble understanding how to rejuvenate or recycle soil. How do you know how much amendment to add? Could I use my own nutrient mix? I have seen various methods posted here http://www.moderncannabist.com/knowledge/modern-methods, from Lumper and the first post on this forum but the amounts seem to vary, is it just preference? Also, if you are rejuvenating the soil in between each cycle then is it necessary to topdress during the cycle? Sorry for so many questions but my thoughts get twisted and start to contradict. All and any help is greatly appreciated.
> 
> Thanks,
> MH


They don't most are just winging it , unless you get a Actual soil analysis Done your winging it plain and simple.. all organic additives are amendments not nutrients, And you are correct it varies Large in actual NPK And like you mention with top dressing is they never had enough of the A or B in there soil to begin with again lack of trully understanding LOS


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> They don't most are just winging it , unless you get a Actual soil analysis Done your winging it plain and simple.. all organic additives are amendments not nutrients, And you are correct it varies Large in actual NPK And like you mention with top dressing is they never had enough of the A or B in there soil to begin with again lack of trully understanding LOS


You're really fucking annoying man. You talk shit on everything organic unless you're the person doing it.


----------



## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> There's a lot of ways to skin a cat man. Instead of spewing out a bunch of answers, let me ask you some questions first. What size planters do you use, how long do you plan on vegging your plants, what's your soil mix made up of, and do you plan on doing things like aacts, ssts, etc? All these will determine what method you should use to best suit your needs.
> if you'd like to skip the re-ammending stage I suggest you read up on the Korean no-till style of farming a lot of us use. If you prefer to dump out all of your soil, ammend, then repot, that's another story, though quite similar.


 What size planters are you using ??? WTF does that got to do with anything if you got proper ratio's in your soil 1 gallon or 800 gallon is going to be the same ratio of nutrients it will take care of the plant .. Common sense comes into the equation if plant out grows pot . Don't you think ??


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## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> What size planters are you using ??? WTF does that got to do with anything if you got proper ratio's in your soil 1 gallon or 800 gallon is going to be the same ratio of nutrients it will take care of the plant .. Common sense comes into the equation if plant out grows pot . Don't you think ??


I asked that because if he's going to run a notill setup he needs to keep his planters above a certain capacity or he'll see diminished returns. It's pretty simple actually, think for a minute before you look stupid.


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## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Yes I do actually, my plants tell me and I'm smart enough to know what they're telling me. I don't need a complete soil analysis to know what's in it. I built it, I know exactly what's in it. Can I quantify it, nope. But I don't need to.
> I don't need charts, numbers, and computers to produce "topshelf" medicine .
> Maybe you do because you're not able to read plants, but hey that's your issue.
> I don't give a FUCK who's circle jerk you're in, how many plants you tend to, how many tons of soil you work with, etc.
> I've been watching your posts and you're a negative asshole who feels the need to wag your ego around to feel better about yourself when you don't agree. Go feed that shit elsewhere cause this dude doesn't stand for it. I'm tired of the rampant ego issues in the cannabis community, especially between the organic heads. It's pathetic


 My ego ?? no there is a shit load of misinformation on this site ,, there has to be them people or members that correct it and there the ones that are the Assholes right ?? 
and you just said it but your plants tell you you must be the plant whisperer right ??? hahaha gie your head a shake dude in agriculture farmers get there test and for good reason to produce the best possible product and yield 
I bet your right into teas Huh ?? i wonder why farmers do not add teas i know cause they had the proper ratio's of nutrients in there soil to begin with


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## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

And looking at my tests it clearly shows high phos and very low micro nutrient levels so with that said how many here actually know there micro levels b winging it and reading there plant owe there is a def i better make a tea


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## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> My ego ?? no there is a shit load of misinformation on this site ,, there has to be them people or members that correct it and there the ones that are the Assholes right ??
> and you just said it but your plants tell you you must be the plant whisperer right ??? hahaha gie your head a shake dude in agriculture farmers get there test and for good reason to produce the best possible product and yield
> I bet your right into teas Huh ?? i wonder why farmers do not add teas i know cause they had the proper ratio's of nutrients in there soil to begin with


There is, but you're not some cannabis messiah to set us all straight. You're just another dude who's found himself in a position to claim superiority through numbers. 
Farmers typically test their soil because they're going to rain a fuck ton of chemicals on their already chemically fucked land. 
Teas are some of the greatest tools we have in organics, to state their not is just silly. Are they necessary though, absolutely not. Compost teas are the most beneficial, in my experience, in situations where soil mass isn't high enough to produce and host enough beneficial organisms.
We can do this back and forth on the specifics of my techniques all day man, but where's it going? You're not going to find any major faults or fallacies in my style / knowledge. And I don't say that from an egotistical standpoint, I know I'm not perfect ,no one is or can be.


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## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

what i am trying to say from my tests is clearly shows i am moving into the right direction rather then going at it blind and to correct you on tonnage its 48 tons of soil i work with a year


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## MetalHead19 (May 19, 2015)

Here is my soil recipe, some of the numbers are incomplete but I got lazy  http://1drv.ms/1N5Segw (this is a link to online excel where the recipe is saved)
I know it's way over the top and there's a lot of stigma with the guanos, blood meal, etc but I wanted diversity not only in microbial life but in feed times (immediate and long term feed). So far with the soil recipe I have kept a fairly large mother sustained without feed or teas for about 2 1/2 months with minor yellowing occurring now, probably due to the lack of biological activity, I feel if I add some compost tea it will begin to make the nutrients more available again. 

This recipe is very new and I have only used it on the Toxic Blue mother but damn is she stanky and crazy, no abnormal growth and the stalks are rock hard without training.She is a little on the dark side but not terribly.(I am sticking with the strain Toxic Blue 33, it has amazing qualities and I want to study it thoroughly) 

I plan on doing an outdoor grow in a 15 gallon pot and I don't think I'll go with anything larger than the 3.4 gallon Superoots air pots indoors. 

This is the first time I will be doing an outdoor grow so it will give me a chance to collect some data on the soil. I feel that I'll have to topdress later in the season as I can only imagine that plants will consume a large amount of nutrients quickly and replace most of the soil volume with roots. I think I'll use a mixture of all the amendments in the mix at a rate of 1 Tbsp per gallon of soil for topdress mixed in with some castings and compost for good decomposition. 

I'm not sure if I should do no till as I'm not experienced with the practice. I feel like the old root mass would take forever to decompose, using these pots the roots get quite ridiculous. I also feel with no till that variable nutrient pockets are probable. While the plant would most likely use most of the nutrients out of the lower section of the pot quickly then if your only topdressing it will take forever for that mass to reach throughout the pot? I feel like tumbling the soil would reduce the likeliness of uneven nutrient pockets. And if the root mass were to take up a majority of the planter then how would you know what is left? which brings me back to square one...how much additive to use when soil recycling? Brian turning to mush...lol


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## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

MetalHead19 said:


> Here is my soil recipe, some of the numbers are incomplete but I got lazy  http://1drv.ms/1N5Segw (this is a link to online excel where the recipe is saved)
> I know it's way over the top and there's a lot of stigma with the guanos, blood meal, etc but I wanted diversity not only in microbial life but in feed times (immediate and long term feed). So far with the soil recipe I have kept a fairly large mother sustained without feed or teas for about 2 1/2 months with minor yellowing occurring now, probably due to the lack of biological activity, I feel if I add some compost tea it will begin to make the nutrients more available again.
> 
> This recipe is very new and I have only used it on the Toxic Blue mother but damn is she stanky and crazy, no abnormal growth and the stalks are rock hard without training.She is a little on the dark side but not terribly.(I am sticking with the strain Toxic Blue 33, it has amazing qualities and I want to study it thoroughly)
> ...


I'm going to fully reply to this one my break, but in regards to your concerns over notill and available nutrients / tumbling or "tilling" your soil. Look up what a soil food web is, this should give you a bit better understanding of how that would work in a notill planter.


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## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

^^^ those tests is organic soil water only again them lush green forests are at equilibrium everything works hand in hand like mother nature intended ,, Hence organics 
when we alter that in some way or form is it natural anymore ?? i beg to differ, we try our best to replicate but its never really the same people add Guano to there foreign soils but is it natural for that region ?? NOPE its not 
true living soil takes years to accomplish not months or weeks


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## greasemonkeymann (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Oh I've popped hundreds of beans by now and have never found a single mutation, aside from my Yunnan landrace that threw the most perfectly symmetrical 8 bladed leaf.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I remember seeing the duckfoot on sannies website, not sure if they still have it though.


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## st0wandgrow (May 19, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> What size planters are you using ??? WTF does that got to do with anything if you got proper ratio's in your soil 1 gallon or 800 gallon is going to be the same ratio of nutrients it will take care of the plant .. Common sense comes into the equation if plant out grows pot . Don't you think ??


You reported my post? What a pansy!


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## AllDayToker (May 19, 2015)

Hey if none of us are using chemicals and we are all growing healthy and happy plants, then what's the fuss here? Cmon now lol.


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> My ego ?? no there is a shit load of misinformation on this site ,, there has to be them people or members that correct it and there the ones that are the Assholes right ??
> and you just said it but your plants tell you you must be the plant whisperer right ??? hahaha gie your head a shake dude in agriculture farmers get there test and for good reason to produce the best possible product and yield
> I bet your right into teas Huh ?? i wonder why farmers do not add teas i know cause they had the proper ratio's of nutrients in there soil to begin with


ask Dr elaine ingram how many farmers "use teas" lol 1 lbs of vermicastings and 4 grams of succanate per 5 gallons at a o.r.p. of 550 your golden the right amt of fagellets and nemetoads have been found in black sedge peat bubbled...so vermi is sometimes a free for all of pros for the soil monthly....anywho you sound like your part of the dying breed BLINDLY following OLD science.....
do you Foliar with amino acids?? take advantage / massage the krebs cycle ?? 4 years ago i was dealing with these topics now there are new frontiers in probiotic/ biodynamic / actiomycictic gardening ...
peace ...


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## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

for someone that finally has good growing tomatoes your words ring hollow Dank 

Joedank Howdy sweet mamma miss the rad verrrt porn  veggies go well this season my tomatos are doin great for the first time ever!
Oct 27, 2014


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> for someone that finally has good growing tomatoes your words ring hollow Dank
> 
> Joedank Howdy sweet mamma miss the rad verrrt porn  veggies go well this season my tomatos are doin great for the first time ever!
> Oct 27, 2014


i had just moved from norther cali to 7200 ft in colorado and only grew cannabis in my greenhouses a hailstorm in july 2011 and snow in 2012 shut us down ... did not even try in 2013 all cannabis and peppers....not worth the seeds till i had ghouse space but did you look at the weed i was pumping out ??? 3 lbs a week  of c02 (from my inLine hot water heater )pumped DANK...





i post mostly at ICmag because of people like you .... go back to your blood and bone / saved by chems and PGR'S OPeration


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## Darth Vapour (May 19, 2015)

I See i grow around the 60 th parallel and your point is ??


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> I See i grow around the 60 th parallel and your point is ??


dude i do a farmers market i could not in good faith sell anything you pictured to the public . the regulars would just straight ask for hlf off ...
lets move the story closer to home .
i was at the Build a soild warehouse yesterday . i gotta say they source some of the finest soil ammendments and cutting edge crop science food . left with the TM-7 , myco, and a 13% N amino foliar from india that looks good for turf and veggies in full sun... i will be trying to do a custom mix with them as the owner was quite accomadating to all my questions and the folks he employed were local cats . nice clean shop . kinda know it allish but dont yopu gotta be in this industry??
the heart is in the right place IMO.... as for the mars LEDS he only has them cuz he uses them says his margin is 4% on them so he may dorp them if that goes away...wish the bags they have are more durable but it all goes into jars amd bins... i rambel...


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## drekoushranada (May 19, 2015)

Has anybody tried the geo pots fabric grow beds indoors yet? I'm looking at these for my first no till/organic run.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 19, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> Has anybody tried the geo pots fabric grow beds indoors yet? I'm looking at these for my first no till/organic run.


Been considering this for about 6 months now.



Joedank said:


> dude i do a farmers market i could not in good faith sell anything you pictured to the public . the regulars would just straight ask for hlf off ...
> lets move the story closer to home .
> i was at the Build a soild warehouse yesterday . i gotta say they source some of the finest soil ammendments and cutting edge crop science food . left with the TM-7 , myco, and a 13% N amino foliar from india that looks good for turf and veggies in full sun... i will be trying to do a custom mix with them as the owner was quite accomadating to all my questions and the folks he employed were local cats . nice clean shop . kinda know it allish but dont yopu gotta be in this industry??
> the heart is in the right place IMO.... as for the mars LEDS he only has them cuz he uses them says his margin is 4% on them so he may dorp them if that goes away...wish the bags they have are more durable but it all goes into jars amd bins... i rambel...


Isn't their business located in Hawaii?


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## testiclees (May 19, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I remember seeing the duckfoot on sannies website, not sure if they still have it though.


the cannabiogen cultivar "Destroyer" has some freaky phenos.


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## drekoushranada (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Been considering this for about 6 months now.
> 
> 
> Isn't their business located in Hawaii?


Is there any specific reason why you have not tried it?


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## testiclees (May 19, 2015)

Joedank said:


> *dude i do a farmers market i could not in good faith sell anything you pictured to the public . the regulars would just straight ask for hlf off ...*
> lets move the story closer to home .
> i was at the Build a soild warehouse yesterday . i gotta say they source some of the finest soil ammendments and cutting edge crop science food . left with the TM-7 , myco, and a 13% N amino foliar from india that looks good for turf and veggies in full sun... i will be trying to do a custom mix with them as the owner was quite accomadating to all my questions and the folks he employed were local cats . nice clean shop . kinda know it allish but dont yopu gotta be in this industry??
> the heart is in the right place IMO.... as for the mars LEDS he only has them cuz he uses them says his margin is 4% on them so he may dorp them if that goes away...wish the bags they have are more durable but it all goes into jars amd bins... i rambel...


Dude youre mistaken that produce looks fine. i work daily with the most respected farmers attending nyc and philly farmers mkts.

Elaine ingham is widely criticized for her "science". Microbeman has posted instances of straight up false claims and incorrect organism identifications.

The build a soil folks ARE good people but they are not leading soil consultants nor do they market themselves as experts. What is "cutting edge crop science food" ? They are most definitely not offering any cutting edge crop sciece. Ferti nitro has been used to charge bio char for a few years, the bio ag products are available on ebay. Theres nothing edgy about the products you purchased.

Soil tests are an excellent starting point.


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

testiclees said:


> Dude youre mistaken that produce looks fine. i work daily with the most respected farmers attending nyc and philly farmers mkts.
> 
> Elaine ingham is widely criticized for her "science". Microbeman has posted instances of straight up false claims and incorrect organism identifications.
> 
> ...


look at pic again only 20% of the tom's are red and ripe the rest are underripe lol might as well go to shop n save
you "Work" at....
well i grow the food and my wife sells it . we give away cracked or blem fruit at the end ...
noone said dr elaine was doing anything except advising ALOT of Farmers that seem to do Pretty well...falsafying claims SAD...
soil test are key ....
who said Build a soil was specalist ?? they quote Dr. faust ALOT and i LIKE his style.... i MENT cutting edge i the CONCIOUS picking of products so i dont have to grill the soil guy about whats in there... its a BIG concern of mine as buying in bulk is key for me and they are close...


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Been considering this for about 6 months now.
> 
> 
> Isn't their business located in Hawaii?


 Montrose colorado about 30 miles from me...
i just like the selection olly mounatin compost is WAY better than mine


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

uc davis talks about the accuracy of "home" soil test kits http://ucanr.org/sites/ucceventura/files/35923.pdf
great info for fast soil FACTS


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## Mohican (May 19, 2015)

UC Davis is my goto resource as well


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## drekoushranada (May 19, 2015)

I been reading but may have overlooked. Is it OK for me to run no till in a perpetual manner? I want to veg for 3-4 weeks then plant them in there final home to flower. I will be setting aside a 5x5 or 4x4 tent to test this growing method. This will be my first run with organics. I do coco DTW at the moment.


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> I been reading but may have overlooked. Is it OK for me to run no till in a perpetual manner? I want to veg for 3-4 weeks then plant them in there final home to flower. I will be setting aside a 5x5 or 4x4 tent to test this growing method. This will be my first run with organics. I do coco DTW at the moment.


i have had good success with a large bed perpetual . but some strains if overvegged can create such a dense mat of roots .... it is had not to want to till...lol.. so i plant rye or alfalfa and grow it a few weeks the cut and let rest a few weeks ... ammend/top dress and the next round looks better than the 1st...


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## drekoushranada (May 19, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i have had good success with a large bed perpetual . but some strains if overvegged can create such a dense mat of roots .... it is had not to want to till...lol.. so i plant rye or alfalfa and grow it a few weeks the cut and let rest a few weeks ... ammend/top dress and the next round looks better than the 1st...


You think I will be better off in 10 or 15 gallon pots as a no till newb or just do the soil bed?


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## Joedank (May 19, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> You think I will be better off in 10 or 15 gallon pots as a no till newb or just do the soil bed?


are you good at feeling out a plant in general and have a good grasp of how they are supposed to llok thru the stages of growth .. FUCK yea do a bed . i LOVE mine once the plants get moving its hella nice an fogiving . i use a mosture meter near the end of flower to be sure the max O2 gets to the plants (2 bars) ... 10 gallon pots are great and i use them kinda yeild larger plant to plant unless i trellis my beds REAL well....hope i helped..


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## Midwest Weedist (May 20, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> Is there any specific reason why you have not tried it?


No lol. Planters have just been easier. Plus my personal garden is in a 2x4x5.5 tent so I'd have to custom make one.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 20, 2015)

Here's my Yunnan on day 19 of flower. Idk why more people aren't growing this.


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## drekoushranada (May 20, 2015)

Joedank said:


> are you good at feeling out a plant in general and have a good grasp of how they are supposed to llok thru the stages of growth .. FUCK yea do a bed . i LOVE mine once the plants get moving its hella nice an fogiving . i use a mosture meter near the end of flower to be sure the max O2 gets to the plants (2 bars) ... 10 gallon pots are great and i use them kinda yeild larger plant to plant unless i trellis my beds REAL well....hope i helped..


You have been a ton of help. Thank you. I think I will start out with 10 gallon pots and see how those go. The plants will be provided a 1000w light for flower. The amendments will come from Build a Soil. I think 2000 red wigglers will do for what I have in mind. Time to place an order so I can start cooking. I'm sure this will be a great experience. Judging how this go I might covert my whole grow room over.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 20, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> You have been a ton of help. Thank you. I think I will start out with 10 gallon pots and see how those go. The plants will be provided a 1000w light for flower. The amendments will come from Build a Soil. I think 2000 red wigglers will do for what I have in mind. Time to place an order so I can start cooking. I'm sure this will be a great experience. Judging how this go I might covert my whole grow room over.


Source local vermicompost / compost. It'll be cheaper than bas .


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## drekoushranada (May 20, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Source local vermicompost / compost. It'll be cheaper than bas .


I have found a few people here with compost but the local vermicompost I'm still searching for. I was just going to grab the "CC" big box from and maybe a few other things.


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## Midwest Weedist (May 20, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> I have found a few people here with compost but the local vermicompost I'm still searching for. I was just going to grab the "CC" big box from and maybe a few other things.


I've yet to find a local vermicomposter. I always have to buy from bas when I run out of mine.


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## Joedank (May 20, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've yet to find a local vermicomposter. I always have to buy from bas when I run out of mine.


mixing soil i ran out of my own as weel this year..
i bought a local brand but it is not the same . or . in my opinion as good as the stuff BAS sources from new york . feeding worms compost IS better IMO...


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## Midwest Weedist (May 20, 2015)

I couldn't agree more. Their vermicompost is the shit, pun intended. I just wish it wasn't so pricey. Though I can't imagine the dilemma they face with shipping in regards to shipping weight / moisture content; do they let it dry out more so it's cheaper to ship but lacking in its microheard or pay out the ass and ship vermicompost that's at the perfect moisture percentage and teeming with microbes. Decisions decisions.

I bought some local organic compost at $5 per 40lbs and I was extremely disappointed when I got my hands in it. It's good stuff, but compared to something like mount oly it's dogshit. I was going to use it as a top dress in place of vermicompost on my ladies but I'll end up using it as more of a soil base for my friends garden that I'm putting in instead.


Joedank said:


> mixing soil i ran out of my own as weel this year..
> i bought a local brand but it is not the same . or . in my opinion as good as the stuff BAS sources from new york . feeding worms compost IS better IMO...


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## blackswampgenetics (May 20, 2015)

I haven't read thru all the posts and have done research on other sites about no till. The question I have and seem to be missing is after harvesting and re top dressing your container how long before you can plant your new clone.


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## Joedank (May 20, 2015)

blackswampgenetics said:


> I haven't read thru all the posts and have done research on other sites about no till. The question I have and seem to be missing is after harvesting and re top dressing your container how long before you can plant your new clone.


i sometimes dont ammend just plant and top dress as i go depending on plant look...lol


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## blackswampgenetics (May 20, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i sometimes dont ammend just plant and top dress as i go depending on plant look...lol


Ok so do you remove the cut stalk and some of the roots or just plant beside it ? my concern is the new cutting getting root bound after time. I might be over thinking this just want to make sure lol Thanks Joe


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## st0wandgrow (May 20, 2015)

blackswampgenetics said:


> I haven't read thru all the posts and have done research on other sites about no till. The question I have and seem to be missing is after harvesting and re top dressing your container how long before you can plant your new clone.


Some people just plug a clone right in there after chop. I was re-amending and laying down some EWC and fresh soil on top, then planting a clover cover-crop, then leaving the containers fallow for 3-4 weeks.

I'll be honest with you though, after running no-till for a while I'm not a fan of it. I think the soil gets too compacted over time and the roots begin to get starved of oxygen. At least that was my experience. I think the soil benefits from being dumped out, re-amended, and fluffed up a bit. Just my opinion.


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## blackswampgenetics (May 20, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Some people just plug a clone right in there after chop. I was re-amending and laying down some EWC and fresh soil on top, then planting a clover cover-crop, then leaving the containers fallow for 3-4 weeks.
> 
> I'll be honest with you though, after running no-till for a while I'm not a fan of it. I think the soil gets too compacted over time and the roots begin to get starved of oxygen. At least that was my experience. I think the soil benefits from being dumped out, re-amended, and fluffed up a bit. Just my opinion.


Thank You that answered my concerns.I'm going to play around with no till still but the soil re-amending was the way I was leaning. I felt like letting the no till sit for a few weeks was a good idea but just wasn't seeing anyone committing to letting it sit or plant directly into it. Thanks again you have been a big help!!!


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## greasemonkeymann (May 20, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Some people just plug a clone right in there after chop. I was re-amending and laying down some EWC and fresh soil on top, then planting a clover cover-crop, then leaving the containers fallow for 3-4 weeks.
> 
> I'll be honest with you though, after running no-till for a while I'm not a fan of it. I think the soil gets too compacted over time and the roots begin to get starved of oxygen. At least that was my experience. I think the soil benefits from being dumped out, re-amended, and fluffed up a bit. Just my opinion.


I agree, i'd say to be safe, every three runs you should do that, or every yr or so.
I don't reamend until I empty them, but I don't have the flowering ladies in their final pots for much longer than the flowering time, I trans about 10-15 days prior to flowering


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## keepitcoastal (May 20, 2015)

Dealing with my first aphid problem in years. 4 weeks in flower. I know how to kill them... But not without killing off my micro herd and effecting taste of Meds. Anybody have an organic safe defense or killer that's okay for flowering that YOU HAVE USED BEFORE. A lot of guys tend to read shit off here and then spew it off as fact like they have done it before when in fact they haven't..

For example people telling others to just put perlite on top of all the pots for gnats. Iv done this for years but it has zero benefit if you don't crush the perlite up into a powder basically. Otherwise just a waist of money.... I see people all the time saying just fill top of pots with perlite...... Sorry but that won't do it as soon as you water and wash the powders away they crawl right through the perlite


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## Pattahabi (May 20, 2015)

keepitcoastal said:


> Dealing with my first aphid problem in years. 4 weeks in flower. I know how to kill them... But not without killing off my micro herd and effecting taste of Meds. Anybody have an organic safe defense or killer that's okay for flowering that YOU HAVE USED BEFORE. A lot of guys tend to read shit off here and then spew it off as fact like they have done it before when in fact they haven't..
> 
> For example people telling others to just put perlite on top of all the pots for gnats. Iv done this for years but it has zero benefit if you don't crush the perlite up into a powder basically. Otherwise just a waist of money.... I see people all the time saying just fill top of pots with perlite...... Sorry but that won't do it as soon as you water and wash the powders away they crawl right through the perlite


No doubt lmfao!! I get so sick of people reading something and then spewing it out like they have done it. I try and add a disclaimer like, I don't have any experience with broad mites, but these are what some growers I respect have tried. With that said, don't want to insult your intelligence, but how do do you know you have aphids? I'm assuming you are referring to root aphids?

Peace!

P-


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## hyroot (May 20, 2015)

I disagree. I do both ways as my space is limited. I get better results now just replanting right away or at least a week later. There's nutes on the roots. Those pathways created by the old roots are still there. I used to let everything breakdown first then replant. Since I've been expanding I dont do that.

I replant 2 gals. Not clones or seedlings. So.i.dig out that space. Then add recycled soil , castings, compost on top. Then topdress amendments. Then a thin layer of recycled soil / castings / compost. Then clover seeds then another layer of soil / castings / compost. My last harvest was with 5th run on that pot with 4 year old soil


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## Joedank (May 20, 2015)

blackswampgenetics said:


> Ok so do you remove the cut stalk and some of the roots or just plant beside it ? my concern is the new cutting getting root bound after time. I might be over thinking this just want to make sure lol Thanks Joe


yea i pull out a buch of root mass although many dont.. it all works


----------



## blackswampgenetics (May 20, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I disagree. I do both ways as my space is limited. I get better results now just replanting right away or at least a week later. There's nutes on the roots. Those pathways created by the old roots are still there. I used to let everything breakdown first then replant. Since I've been expanding I dont do that.
> 
> I replant 2 gals. Not clones or seedlings. So.i.dig out that space. Then add recycled soil , castings, compost on top. Then topdress amendments. Then a thin layer of recycled soil / castings / compost. Then clover seeds then another layer of soil / castings / compost. My last harvest was with 5th run on that pot with 4 year old soil


Thanks hyroot. I will try your suggestion also.


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## foreverflyhi (May 20, 2015)

I agree with stow, it's crazy how dense the soil gets. I remember 5 gallons turning into 7 or 8 gallons through out a couple grows


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## Midwest Weedist (May 20, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> I agree with stow, it's crazy how dense the soil gets. I remember 5 gallons turning into 7 or 8 gallons through out a couple grows


Could whatever was used as a base and an aeration amendment come into play with soil compaction? Obviously something like rice hulls will decompose to little more than nothing, but something like black lava rock should last longer than any of our bodies will without compacting, correct?


----------



## PSUAGRO. (May 20, 2015)

keepitcoastal said:


> Dealing with my first aphid problem in years. 4 weeks in flower. I know how to kill them... But not without killing off my micro herd and effecting taste of Meds. Anybody have an organic safe defense or killer that's okay for flowering that YOU HAVE USED BEFORE. A lot of guys tend to read shit off here and then spew it off as fact like they have done it before when in fact they haven't..
> 
> For example people telling others to just put perlite on top of all the pots for gnats. Iv done this for years but it has zero benefit if you don't crush the perlite up into a powder basically. Otherwise just a waist of money.... I see people all the time saying just fill top of pots with perlite...... Sorry but that won't do it as soon as you water and wash the powders away they crawl right through the perlite



Did you cover at LEAST 2 inches??no it won't eradicate them, never said so.....................different grades of perlite, if your using coarse==== well I don't wanna sound rude



st0wandgrow said:


> Some people just plug a clone right in there after chop. I was re-amending and laying down some EWC and fresh soil on top, then planting a clover cover-crop, then leaving the containers fallow for 3-4 weeks.
> 
> I'll be honest with you though, after running no-till for a while I'm not a fan of it. I think the soil gets too compacted over time and the roots begin to get starved of oxygen. At least that was my experience. I think the soil benefits from being dumped out, re-amended, and fluffed up a bit. Just my opinion.


I never tried no-till....................old habits die hard, I even re-structure my soil every run....lol


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## earthling420 (May 21, 2015)

What yall think? she's about 2 weeks into flower. some pistils already changed color. gonna be my first organic harvest! been takin good care of her when I noticed some dying leaves that didn't seem to be from the switch. lots of aloe and silica and neem foliars at low dosages besides the aloe, which is still never more than 2 tbls. Lots of praying  im attributing most of her health to the aloe though haha 
I last min lst'd before flower. never done it til now. I think next run ill try a screen amd compare. still tryna get that flat top


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## Mad Hamish (May 21, 2015)

It seems to work fine plugging them right in if there is not going to be much veg after that, however my no till pots with vegging ladies do NOT work as well as my usual method of dumping out the soil and resting it for a little, sometimes some extra compost and perlite but not much more. About to re amend and I feel it will kick no till in the balls far as my goals are concerned. Overall I will use no till in SoG kind of scenarios with over size pots any day that worked very well, but for my older girls just normal ROLS.


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## AllDayToker (May 21, 2015)

I've doing just classic ROLS with great success. 

Every run I dump soil, breakit up and allow roots to dry, I'll throw some domolite lime and castings/compost in every run.

I'll re-amend it every few runs with fresh and dried fan leaves, brown and green, alfalfa and kelp meal, maybe a handful of a few other thing laying around, water down a bit with fresh microbe tea, then boom ready to roll. 

Never have to feed in veg typically. Don't have to feed until a few weeks into flower, which I typically only give alfalfa/kelp teas for nutes, and ewc/compost teas for microbes. I do a lot of microbe teas. I'll top dress from time to time for insurance or if they look like they could use a boost.

Been using the same soil for probably 4 years by now. I keep it simple with a very small list of extra amendments.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 21, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> It seems to work fine plugging them right in if there is not going to be much veg after that, however my no till pots with vegging ladies do NOT work as well as my usual method of dumping out the soil and resting it for a little, sometimes some extra compost and perlite but not much more. About to re amend and I feel it will kick no till in the balls far as my goals are concerned. Overall I will use no till in SoG kind of scenarios with over size pots any day that worked very well, but for my older girls just normal ROLS.


I've found too that vegging for a long time will drain smaller soil masses of nutrients. I've got one lady in a fabric 3 gallon that was vegged for damn near two and a half months. If I don't top dress and feed teas I guarantee she won't make it through til the end.


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## Mad Hamish (May 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've found too that vegging for a long time will drain smaller soil masses of nutrients. I've got one lady in a fabric 3 gallon that was vegged for damn near two and a half months. If I don't top dress and feed teas I guarantee she won't make it through til the end.


I was thinking over three weeks as a 'longer' veg period I should have been more specific. So vegging anything over three weeks, I don't like no till, but for anything faster it is boss.


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## Mad Hamish (May 21, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> I've doing just classic ROLS with great success.
> 
> Every run I dump soil, breakit up and allow roots to dry, I'll throw some domolite lime and castings/compost in every run.
> 
> ...


I make certain to feed nothing in flower. If some girls come short on food they will get a hotter mix next run, but a little compost over some well built soil and hey presto all they need for flower is an up can. Up canning is the best way to feed IMO.


----------



## keepitcoastal (May 21, 2015)

Anybody ever used criterion wsp 75 in flowering?


----------



## Pattahabi (May 21, 2015)

P-


----------



## Joedank (May 21, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> View attachment 3423937
> 
> P-


nice ! just teas? apollo 13?? looks like my old a-13
@hyroot my dragonfly earth med mystic comes today . any tips??
i LIKE that comapanys approch allot


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## Pattahabi (May 21, 2015)

Joedank said:


> nice ! just teas? apollo 13?? looks like my old a-13
> @hyroot my dragonfly earth med mystic comes today . any tips??
> i LIKE that comapanys approch allot


Thanks Joe! This is actually a freebie NLxBB from World of Seeds. I did actually score some Apollo-13 from Motarebel which is supposed to be the old Brothers Grimm stock.

Peace!

P-


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## Pattahabi (May 21, 2015)

Lemon Thai Hybrid



P-


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## Midwest Weedist (May 21, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Lemon Thai Hybrid
> 
> View attachment 3423946
> 
> P-


What's the flowering time on that? I've been looking at getting my hands on a decent Thai for a while, but those 3 - 4+ months of flowering are a hell of a deterrent. I'm almost not patient enough as is to wait for my Columbian to finish


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## Pattahabi (May 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> What's the flowering time on that? I've been looking at getting my hands on a decent Thai for a while, but those 3 - 4+ months of flowering are a hell of a deterrent. I'm almost not patient enough as is to wait for my Columbian to finish


This one is real quick, usually around 10-11 weeks. It's from Bodhi and called Prayer Tower (lemon thai x snow lotus). I have some real long flowering cultivars from ACE that I really want to flower out one of these days. 

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (May 21, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> This one is real quick, usually around 10-11 weeks. It's from Bodhi and called Prayer Tower (lemon thai x snow lotus). I have some real long flowering cultivars from ACE that I really want to flower out one of these days.
> 
> P-


nice foxtails on that one, yet another one to add to my Bodhi wishlist.. which is like ten strains now at least..


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## Midwest Weedist (May 21, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> nice foxtails on that one, yet another one to add to my Bodhi wishlist.. which is like ten strains now at least..


You and me both! My Bodhi list is longest and priciest



Pattahabi said:


> This one is real quick, usually around 10-11 weeks. It's from Bodhi and called Prayer Tower (lemon thai x snow lotus). I have some real long flowering cultivars from ACE that I really want to flower out one of these days.
> 
> P-


Ooooo I like the sound of that, I'm going to have to break down and finally grab one of their Thai x's eventually. I've wanted something with legitimate Thai genetics for a while now. From what I've read and can tell, it's mostly the Thai that makes the Haze lineage so psychedelic and "trippy". Though I'm sure the Mex and Columbian genes are helping quite a bit in that aspect.

Also, where did you happen to get your seeds from for that strain? Currently there's only two banks that I can find that carry them, that I know of. I know there's the guy in Cali on ig that sells Bodhi seeds, but I don't think he had that strain in his last drop.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (May 21, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> You and me both! My Bodhi list is longest and priciest
> 
> 
> Ooooo I like the sound of that, I'm going to have to break down and finally grab one of their Thai x's eventually. I've wanted something with legitimate Thai genetics for a while now. From what I've read and can tell, it's mostly the Thai that makes the Haze lineage so psychedelic and "trippy". Though I'm sure the Mex and Columbian genes are helping quite a bit in that aspect.


yea, I can think of at least ten of bodhis..
that one may have went up a couple notches, I have such a soft spot for sativas..
I want to find me a viatnamese, I smoked a dirt-tasting viatnamese strain that sat me down!
like more than any indicas I've smoked, the room was all sparkly and I was blasted.
Course... that was like in the late 90s, so I 'd guess my tolerance has increased..


----------



## AllDayToker (May 21, 2015)

Haven't tried any Bodhis strains but I did just have my order shipped this week of some strains from Breeders Boutique. I've heard a lot of good things, haven't ran any of these guys gear either.


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## Pattahabi (May 22, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> You and me both! My Bodhi list is longest and priciest
> Ooooo I like the sound of that, I'm going to have to break down and finally grab one of their Thai x's eventually. I've wanted something with legitimate Thai genetics for a while now. From what I've read and can tell, it's mostly the Thai that makes the Haze lineage so psychedelic and "trippy". Though I'm sure the Mex and Columbian genes are helping quite a bit in that aspect.
> Also, where did you happen to get your seeds from for that strain? Currently there's only two banks that I can find that carry them, that I know of. I know there's the guy in Cali on ig that sells Bodhi seeds, but I don't think he had that strain in his last drop.


Hey MW! I think I actually bought this pack a year or two ago from the 'tude. 

P-


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## foreverflyhi (May 24, 2015)

Recent outdoor pic, they are much larger than they appear. Still not sure when our outdoor season starts lol. Damn geo engineering fucks








Tallest one but not the widest


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## Joedank (May 24, 2015)

keepitcoastal said:


> Anybody ever used criterion wsp 75 in flowering?


NO and i do not reccomend sythetic dewormer for anything .... even dogs... but dont listen to me... anyone experinced wit imcloperid? i use neem seed meal but before that i put 5 ml of warm neem pergallon of water to the roots...
i bet if you get manure from racehorse stalls it will be chalk full of that dewormer... i bet
looks only to be listed for *ORNAMENTALS* ...


----------



## hyroot (May 24, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> Recent outdoor pic, they are much larger than they appear. Still not sure when our outdoor season starts lol. Damn geo engineering fucks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


c'mon bro. How many times.... Lol. Get some v8 get your day straight. No more anti gravity sideways garden pics.


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## Pattahabi (May 25, 2015)

keepitcoastal said:


> Anybody ever used criterion wsp 75 in flowering?


Do not use anything imidacloprid, ever. 

P-


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## hyroot (May 25, 2015)

locomotion / blue steel - tga / home grown natural wonders


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## foreverflyhi (May 25, 2015)

hyroot said:


> c'mon bro. How many times.... Lol. Get some v8 get your day straight. No more anti gravity sideways garden pics.


How does one accomplish such missions?


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## AllDayToker (May 25, 2015)

foreverflyhi said:


> How does one accomplish such missions?



Edit and rotate...


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## Midwest Weedist (May 25, 2015)

Anyone ever seen it where a strain only throws nanners in the undercanopy where its really low light?
My friend and I can't figure it out. The strain (gg4 x stardawg) originated from a hermie, as well as some of the parents so I know the genetics are fucked. Its just that neither of us have seen a plant hermie in just one area like that when it's not environmental in regards to a light leak, etc.

It's a shame the genetics are so poor as the bud, even when fully seeded, is just unbelievably potent (Which I've always found sensimilla to be slightly less potent than consimilla, but that's just me). Out of the 4 phenotypes I've gotten cuts of they all look, smell, and smoke like "top shelf". They bulk up like pure indicas and the frost is similar to that of the cookies lineage. Harvest most in ~8 - 9 weeks.


----------



## Joedank (May 25, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen it where a strain only throws nanners in the undercanopy where its really low light?
> My friend and I can't figure it out. The strain (gg4 x stardawg) originated from a hermie, as well as some of the parents so I know the genetics are fucked. Its just that neither of us have seen a plant hermie in just one area like that when it's not environmental in regards to a light leak, etc.
> 
> It's a shame the genetics are so poor as the bud, even when fully seeded, is just unbelievably potent (Which I've always found sensimilla to be slightly less potent than consimilla, but that's just me). Out of the 4 phenotypes I've gotten cuts of they all look, smell, and smoke like "top shelf". They bulk up like pure indicas and the frost is similar to that of the cookies lineage. Harvest most in ~8 - 9 weeks.
> View attachment 3426760 View attachment 3426763


looks dank ! i have seen this alot with chemdog genetics ... they hide uder nugs in the strangest of places ... its the curse of most stuff that smells like gas ...


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## Midwest Weedist (May 25, 2015)

Joedank said:


> looks dank ! i have seen this alot with chemdog genetics ... they hide uder nugs in the strangest of places ... its the curse of most stuff that smells like gas ...


It makes sense to me that the chem family is hermie prone as the whole lineage came from bagseed. Which as we all know, most high quality bag seed is more often than not, an end result of some unnoticed nanners in some ones cash crop.
Thank you! It really is some potent stuff too, I let my old hippie relative try it and he swore it was laced with something haha
A friend and I have the idea of planting a whole slew of these seeds in patches of these massive 15ft+ sativa / hemp plants that grow native to our area. The hope is that within a generation or two we'll have some acclimated hybrids that properly flower in our 8 - 9 week flowering period. I've taken some of our native cannabis/hemp plants and grown them out, to my surprise theyll flower for over 4 months without ever fully ripening, just continually producing new foxtailing bud sites. I think these may be some strains of equatorial sativas that the old hippie / farmers grew and possibly by accident, crossed with our native hemp plants that grew wild in N America prior to the introduction of exotic strains. Or they're said sativas that have acclimate enough to get seeds on the ground. Anyways, it's a thought. They'll most likely all be hermie prone but that's okay because they'll all be turned to a hash of some sort, probably multiple kinds. Ha, I ramble a lot


----------



## Joedank (May 25, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> It makes sense to me that the chem family is hermie prone as the whole lineage came from bagseed. Which as we all know, most high quality bag seed is more often than not, an end result of some unnoticed nanners in some ones cash crop.
> Thank you! It really is some potent stuff too, I let my old hippie relative try it and he swore it was laced with something haha
> A friend and I have the idea of planting a whole slew of these seeds in patches of these massive 15ft+ sativa / hemp plants that grow native to our area. The hope is that within a generation or two we'll have some acclimated hybrids that properly flower in our 8 - 9 week flowering period. I've taken some of our native cannabis/hemp plants and grown them out, to my surprise theyll flower for over 4 months without ever fully ripening, just continually producing new foxtailing bud sites. I think these may be some strains of equatorial sativas that the old hippie / farmers grew and possibly by accident, crossed with our native hemp plants that grew wild in N America prior to the introduction of exotic strains. Or they're said sativas that have acclimate enough to get seeds on the ground. Anyways, it's a thought. They'll most likely all be hermie prone but that's okay because they'll all be turned to a hash of some sort, probably multiple kinds. Ha, I ramble a lot


the hash harvesting combine patenet has been pulled


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 25, 2015)

Joedank said:


> the hash harvesting combine patenet has been pulled


I'm ignorant to this patent, point me in the right direction? You've really intrigued me!


----------



## Joedank (May 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm ignorant to this patent, point me in the right direction? You've really intrigued me!


has not been awarded yet . still being differntiated from the process to make a combine...
just happening thank the spirt... seeds in one spot plant matrial in another . hash scraped into piles on another section ...


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## Midwest Weedist (May 26, 2015)

Joedank said:


> has not been awarded yet . still being differntiated from the process to make a combine...
> just happening thank the spirt... seeds in one spot plant matrial in another . hash scraped into piles on another section ...


Anywhere I can read up on the concept? A mechanical extractor has always been of high interest for me.


----------



## keepitcoastal (May 26, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Do not use anything imidacloprid, ever.
> 
> P-


Why I asked... Just saw the name come up on a search for aphid control. 

I use neem seed meal both mixed in and in occasional teas. It works a lot better as a preventive than a form of attack. 


Joedank said:


> NO and i do not reccomend sythetic dewormer for anything .... even dogs... but dont listen to me... anyone experinced wit imcloperid? i use neem seed meal but before that i put 5 ml of warm neem pergallon of water to the roots...
> i bet if you get manure from racehorse stalls it will be chalk full of that dewormer... i bet
> looks only to be listed for *ORNAMENTALS* ...


I won't soil drench with cold pressed neem this late into flower because I worry it'll effect taste.


----------



## Joedank (May 26, 2015)

keepitcoastal said:


> Why I asked... Just saw the name come up on a search for aphid control.
> 
> I use neem seed meal both mixed in and in occasional teas. It works a lot better as a preventive than a form of attack.
> 
> ...


well the aphids affect EVERYTHING. some strains they love some not so much...
if your more than 2 weeks from harvest get warm (80"s) water 5ml of neem emulsified in ksil... and feed the roots ... it has not affected taste on mine but i use it preventitively and i dont need it after week 3 flower... neem seed meal supports so much fungal life its neat in the worm bin ...


----------



## Joedank (May 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anywhere I can read up on the concept? A mechanical extractor has always been of high interest for me.


i will see if my buddies are at the peer review stage ..


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 26, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen it where a strain only throws nanners in the undercanopy where its really low light?
> My friend and I can't figure it out. The strain (gg4 x stardawg) originated from a hermie, as well as some of the parents so I know the genetics are fucked. Its just that neither of us have seen a plant hermie in just one area like that when it's not environmental in regards to a light leak, etc.
> 
> It's a shame the genetics are so poor as the bud, even when fully seeded, is just unbelievably potent (Which I've always found sensimilla to be slightly less potent than consimilla, but that's just me). Out of the 4 phenotypes I've gotten cuts of they all look, smell, and smoke like "top shelf". They bulk up like pure indicas and the frost is similar to that of the cookies lineage. Harvest most in ~8 - 9 weeks.
> View attachment 3426760 View attachment 3426763


This his hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt, but this could be environmental to a degree. The genetics that you are dealing with are predisposed to hermaphrodism, but in a lot of cases you need an environmental trigger to bring it out. The fact that this is only popping up towards the bottom of the plant leads me to believe that the lack of light penetration through the upper canopy (no light getting to the bottom of the plant) is the stressor that is causing this.

Try some supplemental lighting on the sides of the plants. Even cfl's will help.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 26, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> This his hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt, but this could be environmental to a degree. The genetics that you are dealing with are predisposed to hermaphrodism, but in a lot of cases you need an environmental trigger to bring it out. The fact that this is only popping up towards the bottom of the plant leads me to believe that the lack of light penetration through the upper canopy (no light getting to the bottom of the plant) is the stressor that is causing this.
> 
> Try some supplemental lighting on the sides of the plants. Even cfl's will help.


It could be, idk. My friend and I both have it happen the same way, one cut is worse than the others by far. But none of my other ladies of different genetics have thrown a single nanner so I'd like to say that it isn't environmental. If it's environmental the only thing I can think of would be colder night temperatures with high daytime temps (55f at the lowest at night and 85 at the highest during the day). They're scrogged so that could be a cause for me. My friend ran them organically with no training, only topping on one, and they all hermied. Ironically the worst one was the best cut.

Edit* Only one cut has thrown nanners so far for me, which was the worst in regards to hermy-ing for my friend.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 26, 2015)

Lil bokashi serum/LAB for the ladies tonight..


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 27, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Lil bokashi serum/LAB for the ladies tonight..
> 
> View attachment 3427636


I've seen some people foliar with it, I've only done soil drenches myself. What's your method?


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 27, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've seen some people foliar with it, I've only done soil drenches myself. What's your method?


This one was a soil drench, but I've done both.

It's really tough to gauge if/how all of these brews and whatnot help the plants. My plants look healthy whether I add teas and SST's or not. It usually boils down to my schedule. If I'm busy at work or with the kids the plants get plain water. If I have the time to piss around with brewing stuff I do it.... But I can't say definitively that they help. I know they don't hurt.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (May 27, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> This one was a soil drench, but I've done both.
> 
> It's really tough to gauge if/how all of these brews and whatnot help the plants. My plants look healthy whether I add teas and SST's or not. It usually boils down to my schedule. If I'm busy at work or with the kids the plants get plain water. If I have the time to piss around with brewing stuff I do it.... But I can't say definitively that they help. I know they don't hurt.


Oh I know for a fact they don't hurt. Hahaha... Some may remember, but I had an incident over winter where I accidentally watered my ladies (4, 3 gallon planters that round) with a quarter gallon of undiluted lacto serum per container, and I make my cultures at double to triple the normal "strength" of what's generally advised. I saw no negative side effects or any noticeable positive effects. If I had any bad microorganisms before, I certainly didnt after. Didn't even phase my ladies that were 3 weeks from harvest.

I totally get the busy schedule dilemma with watering though. I've been so busy lately that I actually forgot to water for almost 60 hours a couple days ago. Ladies in fabric planters weren't happy at all


----------



## a senile fungus (May 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever seen it where a strain only throws nanners in the undercanopy where its really low light?
> My friend and I can't figure it out. The strain (gg4 x stardawg) originated from a hermie, as well as some of the parents so I know the genetics are fucked. Its just that neither of us have seen a plant hermie in just one area like that when it's not environmental in regards to a light leak, etc.
> 
> It's a shame the genetics are so poor as the bud, even when fully seeded, is just unbelievably potent (Which I've always found sensimilla to be slightly less potent than consimilla, but that's just me). Out of the 4 phenotypes I've gotten cuts of they all look, smell, and smoke like "top shelf". They bulk up like pure indicas and the frost is similar to that of the cookies lineage. Harvest most in ~8 - 9 weeks.
> View attachment 3426760 View attachment 3426763



I did a monocrop of GG4 and I had two of them throw some nanners right at the bottom of the plant. Those two plants were nearest to the airflow and farthest from the light. My guess was the cold airflow up the skirts. I have a buddy near me who has a similar guess, cold or colder air. 

I currently have two GG4 bagseed in flower, and one about to be flipped. The two in flower are different phenos, one is more chemmy, one is more diesel. They're almost done flowering then I'm gonna reveg them and see how they do in larger pots.


----------



## Mad Hamish (May 28, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> This his hearsay, so take it with a grain of salt, but this could be environmental to a degree. The genetics that you are dealing with are predisposed to hermaphrodism, but in a lot of cases you need an environmental trigger to bring it out. The fact that this is only popping up towards the bottom of the plant leads me to believe that the lack of light penetration through the upper canopy (no light getting to the bottom of the plant) is the stressor that is causing this.
> 
> Try some supplemental lighting on the sides of the plants. Even cfl's will help.


Yup what I call 'OG Nanners' you can avoid them totally by shaving all but the top three nodes before flower and plucking usually sorts them out.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 28, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Yup what I call 'OG Nanners' you can avoid them totally by shaving all but the top three nodes before flower and plucking usually sorts them out.


I haven't messed with too many OG's. I have a Skywalker OG in flower now (unshaved) so I'll keep an eye out for that. Had it happen once on a real bushy Sunshine Daydream but everything went fine after I plucked them off.


----------



## abe supercro (May 28, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> I did a monocrop of GG4 and I had two of them throw some nanners right at the bottom of the plant. Those two plants were nearest to the airflow and farthest from the light. My guess was the cold airflow up the skirts. I have a buddy near me who has a similar guess, cold or colder air.
> 
> I currently have two GG4 bagseed in flower, and one about to be flipped. The two in flower are different phenos, one is more chemmy, one is more diesel. They're almost done flowering then I'm gonna reveg them and see how they do in larger pots.


perhaps they were cross pollinated or are S1 seed. i think it's cool how S1 seed still expresses variation.


How about _grass clippings_,
does anyone know how long it needs to compost? Is it considered too 'hot' and will it mess with the plant if too much grass is in my soil mix without composting for long enough? i certainly don't apply any chemicals to my lawn and the clippings are already dry. how about _dark dry leaves_ from last fall?


----------



## Joedank (May 28, 2015)

a senile fungus said:


> I did a monocrop of GG4 and I had two of them throw some nanners right at the bottom of the plant. Those two plants were nearest to the airflow and farthest from the light. My guess was the cold airflow up the skirts. I have a buddy near me who has a similar guess, cold or colder air.
> 
> I currently have two GG4 bagseed in flower, and one about to be flipped. The two in flower are different phenos, one is more chemmy, one is more diesel. They're almost done flowering then I'm gonna reveg them and see how they do in larger pots.


you sure its not on all the plants? just well hidden? i find them in the smalls practicaly hugging the stem on unstable strains....folks wonder why there is so much GG4 and GSC bagseed... perpetual grows with slightly unstable but amazingly frosty strains...


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## a senile fungus (May 28, 2015)

Joedank said:


> you sure its not on all the plants? just well hidden? i find them in the smalls practicaly hugging the stem on unstable strains....folks wonder why there is so much GG4 and GSC bagseed... perpetual grows with slightly unstable but amazingly frosty strains...



No, I'm not sure about that...

I noticed for sure on the two plants, the others I didn't notice any, but they could've been there and I didn't notice. 

But I WAS looking, and only noticed the two...


As far as S1, F1 etc, I'm not sure who pollinated whom. I just call em all bagseed, although I will be interested to see how they compare to the glue in flavor/high...


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## Midwest Weedist (May 28, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Yup what I call 'OG Nanners' you can avoid them totally by shaving all but the top three nodes before flower and plucking usually sorts them out.


Yup, haven't seen a single yellow turd since I stripped their legs completely, even snipped some of the lower branches (would have been larf) that I let go originally to avoid stressing them as I knew they were prone to hermie. It's funny, I bet if I would have stripped them up to my scrog net like my other gals I would have never seen any at all, haha oh well they're gone now. And swelling more than anything else I've got flowering!



Joedank said:


> you sure its not on all the plants? just well hidden? i find them in the smalls practicaly hugging the stem on unstable strains....folks wonder why there is so much GG4 and GSC bagseed... perpetual grows with slightly unstable but amazingly frosty strains...


All of the gsc crosses popping up are making me mad. I know there are going to be a lot of poor strains in the future with these genetics because people went on a breeding spree with some hermie bag seed. 

At least I still have some hope left in the fact that there seems to be increasingly more interest in heirlooms. And there are groups that are pushing the landrace beans. Imo, that's where the real medicine is. I know my body seems to enjoy the Columbian and Mexican heirlooms a lot more than these hybrids bred for high thc and bag appeal. 
I don't know, maybe I'm getting old too fast, but I enjoy cannabis that isn't just high in thc. I mean, yes I like a lot of it, but I also like a lot of other cannabinoids / terpenoids to be present. It seems to make the experience complete or whole in some way I can't quite yet explain. Whoa, look at me ramble. Time to get back to work!


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## st0wandgrow (May 28, 2015)

abe supercro said:


> perhaps they were cross pollinated or are S1 seed. i think it's cool how S1 seed still expresses variation.
> 
> 
> How about _grass clippings_,
> does anyone know how long it needs to compost? Is it considered too 'hot' and will it mess with the plant if too much grass is in my soil mix without composting for long enough? i certainly don't apply any chemicals to my lawn and the clippings are already dry. how about _dark dry leaves_ from last fall?


The leaves will be fine. Pretty much just carbon at this point if they're from last fall. Lawn clippings I'm not sure on. I'm using some leaf mold from last year which were mulched with my lawn mower, so I obviously have a decent amount of grass clippings in there but it has broken down to the point that it's unrecognizable. Are you talking fresh clippings abe? I can't see it being an issue as long as it doesn't account for a large percentage of your mix. I know grass clippings are bacterial dominant, so that's groovy.


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## Mad Hamish (May 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Yup, haven't seen a single yellow turd since I stripped their legs completely, even snipped some of the lower branches (would have been larf) that I let go originally to avoid stressing them as I knew they were prone to hermie. It's funny, I bet if I would have stripped them up to my scrog net like my other gals I would have never seen any at all, haha oh well they're gone now. And swelling more than anything else I've got flowering!
> 
> 
> All of the gsc crosses popping up are making me mad. I know there are going to be a lot of poor strains in the future with these genetics because people went on a breeding spree with some hermie bag seed.
> ...


Now that you mention it... a very high percentage of my keepers threw a banana or three my way... the Dank Sinatra Remix is one fussy bitch but worth all the effort, given me sacks on two runs, once she was too crowded, other time she got a little warm. Come to think of it, I actually recommend using the early bananas to spot the most powerful pheno of the Dream Beaver early on already, she throws a few on the lowest nodes week three flower, but none from clone or if shaven and I have hit on her twice now, exact same taste potency and everything, and I have to say that is from ONE pack that I got the two ladies, epic... My Salvation cut can throw some late bananas but none since I stopped feeding my girls in flower... could there be a connection between super quality and herm tendencies? Perhaps... I feel it needs to be explored a little...


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## Midwest Weedist (May 30, 2015)

Mad Hamish said:


> Now that you mention it... a very high percentage of my keepers threw a banana or three my way... the Dank Sinatra Remix is one fussy bitch but worth all the effort, given me sacks on two runs, once she was too crowded, other time she got a little warm. Come to think of it, I actually recommend using the early bananas to spot the most powerful pheno of the Dream Beaver early on already, she throws a few on the lowest nodes week three flower, but none from clone or if shaven and I have hit on her twice now, exact same taste potency and everything, and I have to say that is from ONE pack that I got the two ladies, epic... My Salvation cut can throw some late bananas but none since I stopped feeding my girls in flower... could there be a connection between super quality and herm tendencies? Perhaps... I feel it needs to be explored a little...


That could be highly possibly. It could also lend credibility to the theory of seeded cannabis having a "better" high. Which I'm a believer in actually.

One thought I have on hermie prone strains is that somewhere one of the original heirloom parents could have been hermie prone by nature. Aren't the Thais known for being stupid potent but just as likely to be a hermaphrodite?


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## Mad Hamish (May 30, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> That could be highly possibly. It could also lend credibility to the theory of seeded cannabis having a "better" high. Which I'm a believer in actually.
> 
> One thought I have on hermie prone strains is that somewhere one of the original heirloom parents could have been hermie prone by nature. Aren't the Thais known for being stupid potent but just as likely to be a hermaphrodite?


Far as I know, Thai is the only natural hermaphrodite cannabis on the planet, meaning it needs no stress factors or anything but has nanners as a common trait so yeah try as you may if there is Thai in it she will take dialling in to run stable. Definite connection between Thai and bananas, but to add QUALITY to the equation makes it all seem pretty thin...


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 3, 2015)

Alright guys, there's multiple ways to skin cat and I have a cat that needs skinned, so let's hear the ideas!
I have a tester strain that I ran this round for way too long in veg in way too small of a container, and she's a heavy feeder (B52 is the strain name). I'm on day 35 of flower, she's lost most of her fan leaves, and now the sugar leaves and larf budlettes are yellowing. I don't necessarily care too much about it as the parent strains and especially the reviews don't impress me much, but I would like to see if it's worth anything at all.
She was vegged for 8 weeks in her current 3 gallon fabric planter, I've been hitting her with compost teas with a small pinch of high p bat guano and she's gotten a top dress of probably 2 cups of worm castings and a teaspoon of kelp meal.
So, how would you guys go about it?
I'll snag pictures tonight when lights come on.


Oh and sad day, my Chinese heirloom threw nanners last night =/ I knew I should have avoided the femmed beans.


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## Mohican (Jun 3, 2015)

You can put the fabric pot in a bigger pot and surround it with soil.

Feed it and finish it.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 3, 2015)

Mohican said:


> You can put the fabric pot in a bigger pot and surround it with soil.
> 
> Feed it and finish it.


That's a good idea actually. How big of a planter or how much soil mass do you think would suffice? My thinking is that I could probably use a bit of a heavier mix in regards to amendments and keep it relatively small.


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## Mohican (Jun 3, 2015)

I went with something a little bigger, and with something twice as big. Both worked well. I put compost around the sides.

Here is the Animal Cookies in the Worm Bin:




Cheers,
Mo


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## earthling420 (Jun 7, 2015)

Hey joedank, just curious as to why you dont recommend synthetic dewormer even for animals?


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## Joedank (Jun 7, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Hey joedank, just curious as to why you dont recommend synthetic dewormer even for animals?


now there is a time for everything but imaclopirid is not needed . probly ever but mostly never. for horses it seems to be a ness. evil as they are so inbred. but if your dog is not oozing paracites then why not just use garilc routinely ....

if your dog sleeps with you in your bed or is allowed on the couch your problems might call for a synthetic dewormer....
but i love my dogs and have no problems with worms i use a garlic and ACV drench(look it up) monthly for deworming....
@Mohican does your fancy vet give synthetic dewormer? or has he got a better recc??


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## Mohican (Jun 9, 2015)

I am not sure. Probably uses synthetic.

Magic mushrooms or some kind of psychedelic are used by tribes in the Amazon. Saw a picture. The worms get attracted to the serotonin and follow it out the digestive system.


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## Mohican (Jun 9, 2015)

On a lighter note - Animal Cookies in the worm bin:




Cheers,
Mo


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 9, 2015)

Guess that means I've got the one up on some parasites lol, good to know.


Mohican said:


> I am not sure. Probably uses synthetic.
> 
> Magic mushrooms or some kind of psychedelic are used by tribes in the Amazon. Saw a picture. The worms get attracted to the serotonin and follow it out the digestive system.


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## hyroot (Jun 9, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Alright guys, there's multiple ways to skin cat and I have a cat that needs skinned, so let's hear the ideas!
> I have a tester strain that I ran this round for way too long in veg in way too small of a container, and she's a heavy feeder (B52 is the strain name). I'm on day 35 of flower, she's lost most of her fan leaves, and now the sugar leaves and larf budlettes are yellowing. I don't necessarily care too much about it as the parent strains and especially the reviews don't impress me much, but I would like to see if it's worth anything at all.
> She was vegged for 8 weeks in her current 3 gallon fabric planter, I've been hitting her with compost teas with a small pinch of high p bat guano and she's gotten a top dress of probably 2 cups of worm castings and a teaspoon of kelp meal.
> So, how would you guys go about it?
> ...



sst and nutrient teas


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 9, 2015)

hyroot said:


> sst and nutrient teas


I've been slamming her with teas every time she's been dry enough to water; even grabbed some pond water from my grandparents land today to water with. So far she's looking to make a relatively good finish despite the hiccups. If the smoke is as sweet as she's smelling now, I may run her again. In the last few days I've seen a huge improvement, her roots have now breached the side and heavily on the bottom. 

In other news, I think my Yunnan has about two and a half weeks left, I'm on day 40 today. I can't wait to cut her up! 
Here's phenotype 2 (I believe, May be 3) of 4 phenotypes of Gluetrap [GG4 x Stardawg] turning purple.


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## hyroot (Jun 9, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've been slamming her with teas every time she's been dry enough to water; even grabbed some pond water from my grandparents land today to water with. So far she's looking to make a relatively good finish despite the hiccups. If the smoke is as sweet as she's smelling now, I may run her again. In the last few days I've seen a huge improvement, her roots have now breached the side and heavily on the bottom. View attachment 3437104
> 
> In other news, I think my Yunnan has about two and a half weeks left, I'm on day 40 today. I can't wait to cut her up! View attachment 3437072
> Here's phenotype 2 (I believe, May be 3) of 4 phenotypes of Gluetrap [GG4 x Stardawg] turning purple. View attachment 3437099



looks pretty healthy. I can see a little fade in the glue trap. But nothing to be concerned about. right amount of fade at that age. Still have some time til she's done.


Nice to see what that strain looks like. My buddy @lemmy714 has it in veg right now I think. or he may be popping it next round. i forget. he has a few others from redeyed going too. Those colors and that frost man


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 9, 2015)

hyroot said:


> looks pretty healthy. I can see a little fade in the glue trap. But nothing to be concerned about. right amount of fade at that age. Still have some time til she's done.
> 
> 
> Nice to see what that strain looks like. My buddy @lemmy714 has it in veg right now I think. or he may be popping it next round. i forget. he has a few others from redeyed going too. Those colors and that frost man


Thank you! Two of these cuts are super resilient, one of which I just posted the picture of. Most of my other ladies are fading because I've had to neglect tending to them more than I like. Two of the phenotypes feed heavier than the other two (I have 4 phenotypes) and are fading a bit faster than this one. I've been upping the strength of their teas to compensate a bit. Honestly I'm not impressed with this strain as a whole, even though it's the frostied one I've ever ran. One phenotype threw nanners and legitimate hermaphrodite organs for the first two - three weeks of flower. The person who gifted me the cuts had all of them throw nanners and the cut of mine that hermied, did so the worst for them with big ole balls all over the undercanopy. Smells sickly sweet, almost too much so right before lights on. 
I have a couple jars full of what my friend grew of the different cuts and they're almost all stupid potent in a stoney sense. Even the two phenotypes that are a bit more up-y eventually settle into a heavy stone. I definitely don't prefer one of the cuts as it's just stoney and racey enough that it makes me really confused/forgetful, more so than usual.. which is saying something lol. One phenotype is pretty mellow though, not too stoney but definitely heavy in the indica traits. The two phenos that lean in the sativa appearance in regards to bud formation have undertones of lemon hash in a way that reminds me a lot of RD's Scott's og.


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## lemmy714 (Jun 10, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've been slamming her with teas every time she's been dry enough to water; even grabbed some pond water from my grandparents land today to water with. So far she's looking to make a relatively good finish despite the hiccups. If the smoke is as sweet as she's smelling now, I may run her again. In the last few days I've seen a huge improvement, her roots have now breached the side and heavily on the bottom. View attachment 3437104
> 
> In other news, I think my Yunnan has about two and a half weeks left, I'm on day 40 today. I can't wait to cut her up! View attachment 3437072
> Here's phenotype 2 (I believe, May be 3) of 4 phenotypes of Gluetrap [GG4 x Stardawg] turning purple. View attachment 3437099


I haven't popped these yet but I'm pretty sure Gluetrap is crossed with Guard Dawg not stardawg


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## unwine99 (Jun 10, 2015)

I'm growing out my first home-brewed-water-only-soil test subject right now -- a plant that I know very well, an AK-47 that I've had for 10 years. I figured it was time to bite the bullet and finally use the soil because it has been taking up room in my garage for about 4 months now. The plant is doing great, it's growing inches a day it seems like in veg. under t8's -- it's turning into quite a nice bush.

I used this recipe: 1 part peat moss, 1 part worm castings, 1 part aeration bits (perlite, rice hulls, lava rock, pumice, etc) is the base. To that add a 1/2 cup of kelp meal, 1/2 cup alfalfa meal, 1/2 cup neem seed meal, 1/2 cup crab shell meal, 1/2 cup oyster shell flour and 3 cups rock dust (you can use greensand, azomite, gypsum, etc in lieu of the rock fines) per cubic foot of base.

Well, I just checked the ppm of the runoff for the first time for shits and giggles and my jaw dropped when I saw that it was 5400ppm.  That just blows my mind, coming from a hydro/soilless background, that it's not burnt to a crisp. I can't believe how heavy the soil is when fully watered either when compared to a promix or even an ocean forest -- I've been extra careful not to tweak my back when moving the pot around. lol


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## lemmy714 (Jun 10, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Thank you! Two of these cuts are super resilient, one of which I just posted the picture of. Most of my other ladies are fading because I've had to neglect tending to them more than I like. Two of the phenotypes feed heavier than the other two (I have 4 phenotypes) and are fading a bit faster than this one. I've been upping the strength of their teas to compensate a bit. Honestly I'm not impressed with this strain as a whole, even though it's the frostied one I've ever ran. One phenotype threw nanners and legitimate hermaphrodite organs for the first two - three weeks of flower. The person who gifted me the cuts had all of them throw nanners and the cut of mine that hermied, did so the worst for them with big ole balls all over the undercanopy. Smells sickly sweet, almost too much so right before lights on.
> I have a couple jars full of what my friend grew of the different cuts and they're almost all stupid potent in a stoney sense. Even the two phenotypes that are a bit more up-y eventually settle into a heavy stone. I definitely don't prefer one of the cuts as it's just stoney and racey enough that it makes me really confused/forgetful, more so than usual.. which is saying something lol. One phenotype is pretty mellow though, not too stoney but definitely heavy in the indica traits. The two phenos that lean in the sativa appearance in regards to bud formation have undertones of lemon hash in a way that reminds me a lot of RD's Scott's og.


I'll be holding off on the Gluetrap after the herm report, I have a lot of strains to choose from anyway. When I do sprout them, I'll be watching them like a hawk!


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## VahnKiqazz (Jun 11, 2015)

Hello fellow No-Till growers! This summer will be my first to-crop grow, and it's going to be a no-till garden. A local breeder supplied me with seeds and 4 already vegged plants ranging from 2 feet to 3 feet tall when I put them in the ground. The holes I dug are about 50-70 gallons roughly, perhaps a little more. I lined them with weedcloth on all sides and the bottom, then slashed a line down the middle of each home made pot. I did this in hopes that once my root system has completely filled my 'pots', that perhaps it will continue into the ground beneath, at no point causing a bottle neck to their growth. My soil mix was haphazard and rushed because the plants arrived within days of needing to be transplanted, rootbound and crying to be released. As such, I have no exact measurements. It is as follows:

Earths Best from my local soil distributor, it has horse manure and a bunch of other goodies in it. This was recommended by the local breeder specifically.
Pumice stone for aeration and to help house my microbe life.
Bat Guano 0-7-0 from Down to Earth, a cup or so per hole, very well mixed prior to filling. I have only whats left of a 5 LB box.
Neem Seed Meal from Down To Earth. I mixed it lightly throughout the soil, giving it a very pungent aroma and a slight red tint. The start to my Integrated Pest Management.
Bio-Live from Down to Earth. I mixed two or more cups per hole very thoroughly prior to filling, then top dressed and also dusted the roots of each plant with this as I transplanted them into the ground.
I've top dressed with the Neem Seed meal once since transplant, as well as the Bio Live, some Earth Worm Castings off Amazon, and Bat guano. I watered them all in and covered them with locally harvested mint to keep the topsoil moist. I did this after I sprinkled red clover, crimson clover, white clover, yarrow, comfrey, stinging nettle and fenugreek seeds all over for a cover crop. So far as I can see, only the clover of different varieties, and maybe the fenugreek have begun to sprout.

My plants all seem to be doing ok, but it seems like I put them out a couple weeks early and they flipped from flower back to veg. One is still flowering most definitely, but is the shortest of the bunch, getting the least light as it's a greenhouse against a fence. What can you do?

Anyway, in a week or so they should flip back, and the two that get the most sunlight are turning into real monsters. My little 6x8 greenhouse is getting hard to walk around in! I've only fed them one tea, and I'm afraid my pump's a bit lacking in the way of heft. I thought a 40 gallon pump for 5 gallons would be more than enough!


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## Joedank (Jun 11, 2015)

if you got time and space here is the real grokashi recipie from alan himself....ala leadsled....Beyond Bokashi Ancestral Fermentations Workshop

By Alan Albin Adkisson

Dry Ingredient List:

* Red Wheat 5 gallon

* Azomite 1 cup

* Sea+Real Salt 1 TBSP

* EM Super Cera 1 TBSP  

Liquid Fermentation Ingredient List (plus 1/5 teaspoon EM Super Cera)

* Water 2.5 Gallons (spring water or other non chlorinated, cloromine free water)

* Black Strap Mollasses 2.5 Oz

* Organic Beet Root Juice 2.5 Oz

* Youngevity btt 2.0 organic 2.5 Oz (dry, but mix with your water)

* EM-1 Microbial Innoculant 2.5 Oz

Start potentizing the water you want to use.

I hope I said that right. It is the stirring method used in biodynamic farming or in Dr Emotos work. I use this old ice hash machine. It is perfect. 2.5 gallons warm spring water blessed up with a 1/2 teaspoon EM super cera powder. If you don’t have a ice hash maker, stir the water clockwise for 15 seconds, then counterclockwise, repeat for 5 or more minutes.

Now, every minute or so of mixing, add a liquid ingredient. First the 2.5 oz. Mollases, then 2.5 oz. Beet Root juice, then 2.5 oz. BTT 2.0, lastly 2.5 oz. EM-1. Add the EM-1 last. Once you have your base liquid mixed you can prepare your dry ingredients.

Now for our dry components. We are going to do a five gallon mix. 1 cup azomite  1 tablespoon EM super cera  1 tablespoon mixed sea/real salt.

Stir them up in the cup.

Mix up your five gallons red flake wheat bran with your dry mix. The azomite is an incredible anticaking agent also. Labor saver.
Now you will need 2 1/2 gallons of the liquid fermentation prepared earlier to mix up with your dry mixture.

(if you want to make bigger batches just keep repeating this process till you have finished your desired amount)

Mix it up like bread. Knead it until you find no dry pockets.

Transfer this now to your fermentation barrel. 

Continue to fill your barrel until it is about 7/8 full and packed. I use a barrel liner and at the end I put a loose twist tie on the bag. Then we install the air tight lock ring on the barrel. I have installed an anti siphon valve as a cheap pressure release and put a balloon over that so I can tell when my fermentation is complete. About ten days. You can also use a larger bag tied off over your barrel/bucket and wait for it to puff up a little to see that the fermentation has taken place.

Ten days later this is what it should look like when you open your barrel. I wish you could smell this.

Stomp (Contractor bag lines the barrel)

Now we are going to put that fermented Gro-Kashi thru this 1/4 in screen onto a hay tarp out in the sun to dry. We gonna rake it and take care of it like a fine coffee bean or better. If the weather is bad you can use a batch grain dryer or rent one from a farmer.

Hey everybody. The black tarp makes it easy to gather up when it is dry. I am trying to figure out the perfect moisture level currently. I think that you can over dry it.


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## drekoushranada (Jun 11, 2015)

I purchased some Coots soil mix from BAS and wanted to put my mother plant in it. She is in a Coco 1 gallon pot at the moment. Is it OK to do this? I also will be mixing up a few cubic feet of the soil myself. Going to add what's left over from the pre mix stuff to my cooking soil for diversity. Thanks in advance.


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## drekoushranada (Jun 11, 2015)

I been feeding her with Dyna Gro Foliage Pro since I had her. Excited about finally trying organic growing.


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## Darth Vapour (Jun 11, 2015)

Mohican said:


> On a lighter note - Animal Cookies in the worm bin:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking good MOH i make usually 3 - 4 feet round holes and 4 feet deep 40 /40 mix top soil and compost from my bin with cardboard chips in it ( Worm food ) grass clippings planted this clones outside May 24 - 26 ish there over 4 feet tall bushes water feed only .. With only Fresh grass clippings applied on top every couple of weeks that is all they get


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## Joedank (Jun 11, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Looking good MOH i make usually 3 - 4 feet round holes and 4 feet deep 40 /40 mix top soil and compost from my bin with cardboard chips in it ( Worm food ) grass clippings planted this clones outside May 24 - 26 ish there over 4 feet tall bushes water feed only .. With only Fresh grass clippings applied on top every couple of weeks that is all they get View attachment 3438442 View attachment 3438443


nice blending effect! grass clippings and cardboard arecool too...


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## Joedank (Jun 11, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> I purchased some Coots soil mix from BAS and wanted to put my mother plant in it. She is in a Coco 1 gallon pot at the moment. Is it OK to do this? I also will be mixing up a few cubic feet of the soil myself. Going to add what's left over from the pre mix stuff to my cooking soil for diversity. Thanks in advance.


for sure coco to organic soil is a smooth transition IME.. i got a free bag of the BAS mix a few days ago and i am loving it the structure is great and the biochar is a nice size compared to my hommade...


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## Darth Vapour (Jun 11, 2015)

worms go nuts over the glue in cardboard ( Starch   )


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## Joedank (Jun 11, 2015)

its a mainstay of my bin that and neem meal .never seen a fungal bloom like a dusting of neem seedmeal can give


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## Mohican (Jun 13, 2015)

I keep forgetting to add oatmeal.


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## foreverflyhi (Jun 14, 2015)

Let the veg season begin!!!


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## Mohican (Jun 14, 2015)

I just fed the worm bin some ashes, bio-char, and kelp extract tea. That should help the P and all of the banana peels the worms have been chomping should provide the K. Can't wait to see how the Animal Cookies likes the additions.


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## Mohican (Jun 14, 2015)

@foreverflyhi - they look beautiful! What strains are you growing?


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## drekoushranada (Jun 14, 2015)

I have a bit of a random question. Have anybody noticed a drop in herm prone stains turning herm when using no-till or organics in general? Given it is a stable environment. I'm curious to know.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 15, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> I have a bit of a random question. Have anybody noticed a drop in herm prone stains turning herm when using no-till or organics in general? Given it is a stable environment. I'm curious to know.


Yes actually, my friend and I both ran the same four cuts (4 phenotypes of gg4 x stardawg) and are known to hermie. He uses bottled and boxed organics in bagged soil, scratch fed; and I run a diy organic / veganic (well, like 90% of my plants are veganic to be accurate, but I digress..) notill. He had all four cuts throw nanners and one had legitimate male organs, the cut of his that was a true hermaphrodite, only threw nanners and one set of balls under the canopy when I ran them, and so far no nanners on the other three cuts on day 46 of flower. I also ran another cut he gave me that gave him some nanners and I had no issues; this was when he used the bottled line nectar of the gods or whatever it's called.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jun 15, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> I have a bit of a random question. Have anybody noticed a drop in herm prone stains turning herm when using no-till or organics in general? Given it is a stable environment. I'm curious to know.


I do not understand this hermie talk - I haven't seen or checked for a herm in 6 years.


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## Chronikool (Jun 15, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Yes actually, my friend and I both ran the same four cuts (4 phenotypes of gg4 x stardawg) and are known to hermie. He uses bottled and boxed organics in bagged soil, scratch fed; and I run a diy organic / veganic (well, like 90% of my plants are veganic to be accurate, but I digress..) notill. He had all four cuts throw nanners and one had legitimate male organs, the cut of his that was a true hermaphrodite, only threw nanners and one set of balls under the canopy when I ran them, and so far no nanners on the other three cuts on day 46 of flower. I also ran another cut he gave me that gave him some nanners and I had no issues; this was when he used the bottled line nectar of the gods or whatever it's called.


Has he checked his timer/light leakz...?


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## Darth Vapour (Jun 15, 2015)

Well GG4 is a unstable strain to begin with a any stress can cause hermies or nanners shit even at the beginning when sometimes organic food is not available immediately for plants causing stress
Def = stress


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## Joedank (Jun 15, 2015)

Grokashi fuzz 
just started with it last week . and man i like the feel of it ,the growth / water rates are improving too ... i put it everywhere ! in the compost , on the citrus (try it they LOVE it ) .... the improvement in soil structure is amazing .... outdoors it really shines as it bran can form a colony any where it is covered and moist ...


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 16, 2015)

Chronikool said:


> Has he checked his timer/light leakz...?


We both thought the same thing, but we went over every inch of his op with a fine tooth comb and couldn't find anything. Temp difference between night and day at most was 10 degrees, 99.9999% light tight. A lux meter or whatever the tool is called couldn't read anything with the lights off. No cold basement floor. Rh between 45-55%. Plenty of light from a 1000 watt hps that's not too close or far away. We literally couldn't find any reason. He even replaced his timers with brand new ones just in case they were doing something weird when he wasn't watching.
I really don't want to give an absolute statement that growing organically will provide less chance of hermaphroditic traits from showing, but it is true in my somewhat limited experience.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jun 16, 2015)

Joedank said:


> Grokashi fuzz
> just started with it last week . and man i like the feel of it ,the growth / water rates are improving too ... i put it everywhere ! in the compost , on the citrus (try it they LOVE it ) .... the improvement in soil structure is amazing .... outdoors it really shines as it bran can form a colony any where it is covered and moist ...


I've been debating on buying one of those bokashi composting bins, it provides a similar end product if I'm correct. 
What sort of citrus' do you grow? I've got some lemons that I'm bonsai'ing and I've been toying around with ideas on their final soil mix.


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## foreverflyhi (Jun 16, 2015)

Word of the day, Bo ka shi

@Mohican critical kush would be the largest 6+ft runners up at 5ft are Durango Og from la plata and clone only king Louie  that pic is a week old, they grow everyday! And stink like skunk!


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## Joedank (Jun 16, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've been debating on buying one of those bokashi composting bins, it provides a similar end product if I'm correct.
> What sort of citrus' do you grow? I've got some lemons that I'm bonsai'ing and I've been toying around with ideas on their final soil mix.


if you look back a few pages you can see that grokashi is a little diffrent .
namely the salt and yougevity , but esp. the em1 ceramic innoculant . i am looking at getting the innoculant ant the em-1 to make for my gardens fugal hyphe . along with local microbes harvested from the air with a white rice substrate.
http://naturalfarminghawaii.net/2015/03/indigenous-micro-organisms-march-2015-meeting/
this site is my new GUIDE for gardening passed to me with aloha from the big island ... so gland to know this stuff TESTED ... used to be just THEORY for meeeee....

i bokashi compost as well with hommade lab serum and rice slurry starter . BUT the incculante grokasi gives fungus like crazy!! that is needed outdoor for keeping water in the soil and cyceling nutes as we all know ...

mush love lol soil reuser brothers and sisters


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## Darth Vapour (Jun 16, 2015)

B  een using used fats into my compost bin 3 - 4 cups per month for years every year i make culverts and place compost in in rows have never added any amendment into my soils and it grows excellent


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## drekoushranada (Jun 16, 2015)

When do you all usually pop seedlings in soil mix?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 17, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> When do you all usually pop seedlings in soil mix?


In regards to seedling age? I sometimes germinate mine in soil so I guess the answer is whenever you want? 
I assume you mean after germinating them in a paper towel, etc?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 17, 2015)

I think I may have found a gem of a find in regards to soil mix "amendments". I was doing some landscaping work for a relative recently and ran out of topsoil. They said they'd buy more but they live on the edge of the woods so I told them that's completely unnecessary, I'd go dig up some really top notch midwest forest humus. Well in doing this I found what appears to be the remnants of a once colossal tree stump. The soil is a very dark and rich black/brown and has a very porous texture. Smells absolutely amazing too. About a foot below the top of the soil I find lumps of rotten wood thats almost unrecognizable as such (Score!!). It's mostly leaf mold/rotted/en wood/ and our native clay based soil as far as I can tell.
I plan to collect about 30 gallons of it to screen for my indoor notill planters / house plants. Hopefully once these rain storms let up I can get it screened and whatnot for pictures. I go on vacation next week so all of my projects that have been building up are going to get demolished!!


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## Dr.Pecker (Jun 18, 2015)

I see a creature in this picture. 1/3 of the way down on the left, you see a perfect leaflet. Follow it in and you will see eyes ears nose and a mouth. It has teeth!


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## Mr. Bongwater (Jun 18, 2015)

Dr.Pecker said:


> I see a creature in this picture. 1/3 of the way down on the left, you see a perfect leaflet. Follow it in and you will see eyes ears nose and a mouth. It has teeth!



u high nigga haha


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## Dr.Pecker (Jun 18, 2015)

Mr. Bongwater said:


> u high nigga haha


High is to me as normal is to you.


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## Joedank (Jun 18, 2015)

Dr.Pecker said:


> I see a creature in this picture. 1/3 of the way down on the left, you see a perfect leaflet. Follow it in and you will see eyes ears nose and a mouth. It has teeth!


i see it too he looks latino


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## Pinworm (Jun 18, 2015)




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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think I may have found a gem of a find in regards to soil mix "amendments". I was doing some landscaping work for a relative recently and ran out of topsoil. They said they'd buy more but they live on the edge of the woods so I told them that's completely unnecessary, I'd go dig up some really top notch midwest forest humus. Well in doing this I found what appears to be the remnants of a once colossal tree stump. The soil is a very dark and rich black/brown and has a very porous texture. Smells absolutely amazing too. About a foot below the top of the soil I find lumps of rotten wood thats almost unrecognizable as such (Score!!). It's mostly leaf mold/rotted/en wood/ and our native clay based soil as far as I can tell.
> I plan to collect about 30 gallons of it to screen for my indoor notill planters / house plants. Hopefully once these rain storms let up I can get it screened and whatnot for pictures. I go on vacation next week so all of my projects that have been building up are going to get demolished!!


the more rotten the better for tree logs, the ones I've been using are so degraded they'll crumble in your hand like a cross between a sponge and Styrofoam, it's ability to retain water and promote a "humid" soil is absolutely un-matched.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jun 22, 2015)

Here's one of my 2 30g smart pot worm casting factories. I found they really like a piece of panda film plastic covering the top.


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## Ryon83 (Jun 25, 2015)

Good job dear! Keep it up! Anyway, I need some good and affordable Pest control Port Macquarie services. Actually there are some termites that are eating up my wooden furniture so I want highly professional services to treat them. Please guys suggest a good service!


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 26, 2015)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> Here's one of my 2 30g smart pot worm casting factories. I found they really like a piece of panda film plastic covering the top.View attachment 3445792


so true! that's the exact setup I use too, only I use the extra wrapping paper they send you in the amazon packages. the long strips of brown paper, dampen those up and not only does it keep the gnats away, but it's easy to just dump their food under a couple layers of those instead of burying the food like I used to.
Not to mention when it gets hot and dry they are still nice and chill underneath it all.
Smartpots are perfect for wormbins though


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## greasemonkeymann (Jun 26, 2015)

Ryon83 said:


> Good job dear! Keep it up! Anyway, I need some good and affordable Pest control Port Macquarie services. Actually there are some termites that are eating up my wooden furniture so I want highly professional services to treat them. Please guys suggest a good service!


they have the natural orange oil ones where you live?
cant beat that.
I use orange citrus oil sprays for ants, works like magic.


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## Mohican (Jun 26, 2015)

I think Orken owns the patent on the termite eradication secret so I would go with them.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jun 27, 2015)

Pulled some males today and found my new soil rather warm to the touch. I mixed it about a month ago. The pots were outside but have been shaded for hours. Got up to about 90 today. How concerned should I be about what seems to be an continuation of the composting "cooking" process. 
I've got a few in my hot veg tent and a few in the climate controlled flower room.


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## Mohican (Jun 28, 2015)

Water often


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## Steelheader3430 (Jun 28, 2015)

Thanks Mo! Kinda what I was thinking.


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## Joedank (Jun 28, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Water often


yea this and do a runoff check to be sure you dont have high salinity causing comopsting . 
above 1000ppm of your input water is a red flag for me . i will add a thin layer of drywall dust (gypsum) to bind up salts and slow down the soil .


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 29, 2015)

Joedank said:


> yea this and do a runoff check to be sure you dont have high salinity causing comopsting .
> above 1000ppm of your input water is a red flag for me . i will add a thin layer of drywall dust (gypsum) to bind up salts and slow down the soil .


Drywall dust huh? That's the second time I've seen it mentioned in organics now.


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## Mohican (Jun 29, 2015)

Ground eggshell, gypsum, oyster shell dust, rock dust...


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## Joedank (Jun 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Drywall dust huh? That's the second time I've seen it mentioned in organics now.


it works great if you cant get a bag of horti gypsum... in clay soils it causes "flockuation" a clumping of the clay that makes it easier on roots . also binds sodium and excess ion that form with CA+


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## Steelheader3430 (Jun 29, 2015)

I've got all that in my mix except the eggshells. Everything seems to be doing ok. Some plants have burnt leaf tips but I'm used to that by now. I'm gonna get stoned for the first time since 2004 soon. It should be out of my system by the time I go back to work. Should I go with the bodhi "appy thunderfuck" I've had curing for a year, or "the fuzz" or "blueberry hill"both about 2 months cure.


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## Chronikool (Jun 29, 2015)

Both....


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## Steelheader3430 (Jun 29, 2015)

Both 3 of em. Jk. One hit of each will destroy me.


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## Chronikool (Jun 29, 2015)

1/3 of a hit of 3 of them...?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 30, 2015)

Joedank said:


> it works great if you cant get a bag of horti gypsum... in clay soils it causes "flockuation" a clumping of the clay that makes it easier on roots . also binds sodium and excess ion that form with CA+


I need to put that on my list of things-to-buy. I've been toying with the idea of using some of my native soil that heavy in clay, this might help me out!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jun 30, 2015)

I chopped and wet trimmed my Yunnan last week and she was just dry enough to sample this morning. I can't WAIT for a proper cure on this stuff. Tastes like sweet cream with a very small hint of grape left on the tongue after a few hits. What really surprised me was how smooth it was after only 5+ days of drying. Super light smoke that doesn't even tickle the throat. The high is perfect for me in the am. For the life of me I can't smoke anything with middle eastern genetics in it without having to fight the lethargy that comes with them. It's definitely an indica high, but there's no stoney-ness to it whatsoever. I'm relaxed, calm, and centered without any loss of energy or mental clarity. There's a bit of a zing in my lungs/chest on the first hit but it fades fast.
This plant is a strange one for sure. After trimming and drying it the buds kind of look like a sativa in regards to how airy they tend to be and because of the thin appearance the calyces have. But, the buds formed like an indica in regards to over all shape, they're wider then they are tall.


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## hyroot (Jul 2, 2015)




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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 2, 2015)

Anyone have any ideas on what to do with ~2oz of bud that started to grow fuzzy white mold..? 

The main cola of my strawberry blue started to sport a couple touches of mold (The really wispy white stuff that looks like cotton / mycelia) so I ripped out the entire cola instead of harvesting the infected sections. I know what caused it, I had two "nights" where my rh spiked to 89% and my temps hit 72f. In all honesty I probably could have cut the ~5 wisps of it off and it would have been fine as my rh is well below 45% again, but my paranoia wouldn't let me risk it. 
I found it right before I was about to go to bed so I did a quick trim of the fans, stuck her in the over for about 20 minutes at ~300f, then into the freezer. 
I know I can make bubble from it almost 100% safely, but I really don't feel like running only 2oz just to save it. Preferably I'd rather just aggressively remove all signs of any mold and turn it into a coconut tincture, but I've never had to work with bad product before and the idea of cooking with any sort of left over spores puts a bit of fear in me lol.

Any suggestions?


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## Mohican (Jul 2, 2015)

Chop it and burn it. Wash your room with bleach.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Chop it and burn it. Wash your room with bleach.


Sad day. That's the route I'll take then.
I washed it last night with vinegar then with 91% iso. I'm against bleach personally.


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## hyroot (Jul 2, 2015)

Get a priest or rabbi to bless your garden


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## Mohican (Jul 2, 2015)

Bleach is the best thing you can use against everything. You can dilute it to 3% and nothing can survive it. I don't like using it either but is is the most effective. H202 is also effective. You want to use a strong oxidizer. Wear safety equipment and a respirator. Use a big fan set on High to provide fresh air.

Fire is the ultimate oxidizer. That is why you burn any diseased plant material.

In the old days they would burn villages to stop outbreaks of diseases. Puts it in perspective 

Cheers,
Mo


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Bleach is the best thing you can use against everything. You can dilute it to 3% and nothing can survive it. I don't like using it either but is is the most effective. Quaternary Ammonia or H202 are also effective. You want to use a strong oxidizer.
> 
> Fire is the ultimate oxidizer. That is why you burn any diseased plant material.
> 
> ...


Honestly my fear of it returning is pretty small. It only happened because of my extreme negligence. I turned my fan off during lights out.... Idk why. Been a rough month for me, mind isn't where it should be, I digress though, I went over almost every millimeter of the plant that I had to harvest from as well as my others this morning for a few hours and I couldn't find a single strand of it anywhere else. Obviously I'm aware spores are now lurking, but it's been raining heavily on and off for a month here, nothing I can do as they're present in high amounts everywhere. I don't run anything like a hepa filter so whatever floats around my apartment building is going to be present. Thus why I keep my rh below 50% at all times.. well except the two days recently.

Anyways, thanks for the input! I'm definitely tossing the infected product.


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## Mohican (Jul 2, 2015)

Believe me - we have all done stupid things. I have had to disinfect my veg cabinet more times than I wish to mention. Each time I learn a new thing that I can use to improve my next grow.

I had some killer Scott's OG I was letting take it's time in a shady spot. It kept getting frostier and frostier. Then it seemed too frosty. It was covered in white fur!









Cheers,
Mo


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Believe me - we have all done stupid things. I have had to disinfect my veg cabinet more times than I wish to mention. Each time I learn a new thing that I can use to improve my next grow.
> 
> I had some killer Scott's OG I was letting take it's time in a shady spot. It kept getting frostier and frostier. Then it seemed too frosty. It was covered in white fur!
> 
> ...


That was my exact thought when I saw the first bit of it, waaay to frosty to be trichomes. 
Your pictures make me a little paranoid my Scott's will do that. Which would be the worst because that's the strain that I rely on for most of my medicinal needs.


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## anzohaze (Jul 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Bleach is the best thing you can use against everything. You can dilute it to 3% and nothing can survive it. I don't like using it either but is is the most effective. H202 is also effective. You want to use a strong oxidizer. Wear safety equipment and a respirator. Use a big fan set on High to provide fresh air.
> 
> Fire is the ultimate oxidizer. That is why you burn any diseased plant material.
> 
> ...


When I have to tear my room apart every year or so I put 50/50 bleach in a pump sprayers and spry everything let it soak for a minute then wipe it all Down


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Believe me - we have all done stupid things. I have had to disinfect my veg cabinet more times than I wish to mention. Each time I learn a new thing that I can use to improve my next grow.
> 
> I had some killer Scott's OG I was letting take it's time in a shady spot. It kept getting frostier and frostier. Then it seemed too frosty. It was covered in white fur!
> 
> ...


man that's a good one, that big of an outbreak huh?
ouch.
I had a small calamity happen to me too, in 48 hrs one of the plants I got from a friend went from being totally fine to literally DRIPPING mites...
not shitting you guys... the mites and their webs were literally dripping/oozing from the leaf tips and the entire cola was webbed.
100% the worst I have seen...
and fellas... I have seen my share...
it was when it got to be over 100 degrees here and dry and those mites just started fucking and procreating like adolescent rats on Viagra
---side note--- this plant was in an un-organic soil mix, it wasn't my mix, alllllllll my plants were unaffected. but that one was totally smoked.
could be coincidence, could be because that plant had a problem and I didn't see it.
either way
no pics either guys... couldn't bring myself to do it.. just wanted to rip that bitch out and toss her off the cliff


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## Mohican (Jul 2, 2015)

That Scott's was a late season outdoor experiment with only a few hours of sunshine. It still was amazing until it got the mildew.



Cheers,
Mo


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 2, 2015)

Mohican said:


> That Scott's was a late season outdoor experiment with only a few hours of sunshine. It still was amazing until it got the mildew.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Probably not a chunky as normal but super greasy, right?


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## Mohican (Jul 2, 2015)

Rock hard nugs! Those were tiny plants. I was on a pheno hunt:




Cheers,
Mo


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 3, 2015)

Been rockin the coco coir base lately. 50% coir, 25% EWC, 25% aeration. Loving the results. I just can't seem to get any consistency with peat when it comes to PH and compaction.

7 weeks 12/12 water only...


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## DonPetro (Jul 3, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Been rockin the coco coir base lately. 50% coir, 25% EWC, 25% aeration. Loving the results. I just can't seem to get any consistency with peat when it comes to PH and compaction.
> 
> 7 weeks 12/12 water only...
> 
> View attachment 3453023


Looking good...what you add to that base st0w?


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 3, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Looking good...what you add to that base st0w?


The usual amendments. Kelp, alfalfa, crab shell, neem seed, oyster shell, rock fines, azomite, and gypsum. Haven't even needed a tea or anything lately.

I really like how the coir seems to stay a little more loose and doesn't compact. I'm guessing it allows more oxygen to the root zone than peat. I'm starting to mess with leaf mold too. Can't see myself using peat again if things keep rolling along smoothly.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 3, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> The usual amendments. Kelp, alfalfa, crab shell, neem seed, oyster shell, rock fines, azomite, and gypsum. Haven't even needed a tea or anything lately.
> 
> I really like how the coir seems to stay a little more loose and doesn't compact. I'm guessing it allows more oxygen to the root zone than peat. I'm starting to mess with leaf mold too. Can't see myself using peat again if things keep rolling along smoothly.


Don't let it dry out, I have issues with it being severely hydrophobic when that happens. Even when using aloe vera in ridiculous ratios as a wetting agent it still doesn't want to soak it up. Other than that, I love the stuff. Even use it for gardening on occasion.


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 3, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> The usual amendments. Kelp, alfalfa, crab shell, neem seed, oyster shell, rock fines, azomite, and gypsum. Haven't even needed a tea or anything lately.
> 
> I really like how the coir seems to stay a little more loose and doesn't compact. I'm guessing it allows more oxygen to the root zone than peat. I'm starting to mess with leaf mold too. Can't see myself using peat again if things keep rolling along smoothly.


We love the coco too and find it adds great structure to the soil mix. I bought a peat-based soil mix for the veggies and flowers and am not liking the compaction and how it leaves a gap all around the rim of the pot.


----------



## Steelheader3430 (Jul 3, 2015)

I've allways thought it was good to have some coco and in the mix. Peat is just so hydrophobic. I went 50/50 with my last mix. Roughly.


----------



## earthling420 (Jul 3, 2015)

What you think guys? How much longer?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 3, 2015)

Soon, unless they're really thirsty I'd say within a week. Though I could be mistaken. I always harvest according to trichome head color. A whisp of amber on my indicas and mostly cloudy on my sativas, some hybrids will depend on calyx swell. 
I do let my Scott's og go until they're about 30% amber, amazing sleep aid for an insomniac! Puts on more weight in some phenos too.


earthling420 said:


> What you think guys? How much longer?
> 
> View attachment 3453238 View attachment 3453239


----------



## earthling420 (Jul 4, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Soon, unless they're really thirsty I'd say within a week. Though I could be mistaken. I always harvest according to trichome head color. A whisp of amber on my indicas and mostly cloudy on my sativas, some hybrids will depend on calyx swell.
> I do let my Scott's og go until they're about 30% amber, amazing sleep aid for an insomniac! Puts on more weight in some phenos too.


Nah they drinking less. I think you're right, cause they are coming up on 8 weeks. I need to check with a scope. Cant find it though. Thanks for your insight on trichome preference  this is a hybrid it's purple diesel

Not sure why my cc died though :/


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 4, 2015)

earthling420 said:


> Nah they drinking less. I think you're right, cause they are coming up on 8 weeks. I need to check with a scope. Cant find it though. Thanks for your insight on trichome preference  this is a hybrid it's purple diesel
> 
> Not sure why my cc died though :/


I got my jewlers loupe off of Amazon for like $20 w/ shipping if I remember correctly. I need to buy one of those digital "pen" style macro cameras. Itd be a lot easier to look at it on my computer blown up past 100x lol.
Anything to help! In my experience, if it's a hybrid that doesn't lean too far towards its sativa genetics in bud formation, you can get a really good idea by waiting for that time period where you can start to see the pistils receed back towards its calyces. It's usually a multi-day window where in which the trichomes will rapidly start to oxidize and turn amber, your leaves will start to hook upwards (similar to if they're cupping out of thrist), and the sugar leaves towards the top of the plants upper cola(s) will look almost golden if they're frosty enough and if you have good eyesight. 

My cc dies back every so often. That's why I sow a lot and sow deep, plus I add a bit more seed every time I top dress with vermicompost.


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## hyroot (Jul 4, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> We love the coco too and find it adds great structure to the soil mix. I bought a peat-based soil mix for the veggies and flowers and am not liking the compaction and how it leaves a gap all around the rim of the pot.



I use coco in my mix too. About 20%- 30% of the mix. I did 50/50 before but it dried out too fast. The roots grew too fast. A few10 gals , roots were growing out the bottom of the pot. That's hard to do indoor with 2 -3 month veg time.


----------



## zonderkop (Jul 5, 2015)

Hi guys (and girls), moving to Santa Barbara in a few weeks and hope to meet anyone who is out there. Here's a pic of one of my no-till containers, 6 plants in, going strong with a couple of tomato plants (peat-based DIY soil).


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 5, 2015)

Here's a shot of a Gluetrap lady that got the scissors yesterday at day 63. That Tony Greenhands sure can breed some winning genetics! Out of the four phenotypes I got as clones all ripened up on Day 63-64 with about 5% amber. These trichomes are large enough to tell color with the naked eye! One phenotype seems to want to go a bit longer though, still have mostly white pistils and zilch for amber trichomes, but seems to be almost all cloudy, so I'm thinking in about a week at the most she'll get cut. These ladies also SMELL, like smells so strong I can smell them drying from the hallway of my apartment a full floor below mine.. 

@hyroot Weren't you or a friend going to pop some of these soon?


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## hyroot (Jul 5, 2015)

@lemmy714 was going to. But there was a lot of hermie reports. And they dropped that strain from their menu so... he might not. Redeyed dropped almost all their strains though. Even Mt Rainier and every strain crossed with it. Their selection sucks now. They said they're keeping lockite .


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> @lemmy714 was going to. But there was a lot of hermie reports. And they dropped that strain from their menu so... he might not. Redeyed dropped almost all their strains though. Even Mt Rainier and every strain crossed with it. Their selection sucks now. They said they're keeping lockite .


They dropped them, I would assume, because Tony left the company. I saw nanners on only one of my phenos, and they were in the undercanopy in a crowded area.


----------



## hyroot (Jul 5, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> They dropped them, I would assume, because Tony left the company. I saw nanners on only one of my phenos, and they were in the undercanopy in a crowded area.



I think Johnny left too.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 13, 2015)

My favorite phenotype of gluetrap right before jarring. Smells like race fuel for most of the phenos.


Here's a larf bud of my Strawberry Blue. I looked it up, it is legitimately genetically modified cannabis. The male was forced to mutate through conclein (I butchered the spelling) treatments to force the male genetics not to split, resulting in a polyploid. Growth was extreme, it was flowered at <6 inches tall with on two or three branches and didn't stop producing new nodes and branches until week three of flower. Stretch was well over 200%. It reeks of strawberry sweet onions. After 7 days of drying the smoke is uplifting and energizing. Definitely a favorable sativa high with indica weight. It produced a massive donkey dick of a main cola, about ~40 grams. Unfortunately I lost that to the dreaded grey mold. Still harvested close to 60 grams lol. So far I haven't died, so gmo cannabis might be a winner in my book.
 
Right before wet trimming, still massive even without it's donkey dick.


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 13, 2015)

Gluetrap looking spanky @Midwest Weedist


----------



## cannakis (Jul 14, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> View attachment 3458654
> My favorite phenotype of gluetrap right before jarring. Smells like race fuel for most of the phenos.
> 
> View attachment 3458655
> ...


No sir I must disagree, you proved yourself right there that the gmo did Not work, by contracting grey mold.

Breeding I believe is beneficial but the genetic modification of organisms has Proven relentlessly that it Is Much worse than Traditional Heirloom crops, which contain a plethora of beneficial attributes for just One species, which with today's Global world as is being done now we can obtain Varieties of certain Species that contain a desired trait and Breed them with one's current Locally breed species which has already developed its own Regional Attributes.

GMOs are Death not Life.


----------



## Joedank (Jul 14, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> View attachment 3458654
> My favorite phenotype of gluetrap right before jarring. Smells like race fuel for most of the phenos.
> 
> View attachment 3458655
> ...


even the seeds of the seeds of a crocus treated plant wont be in my garden . unless i am duped .... look it up that "forced polyplody " is bullshit breeding....and you cannot smoke the outcome...


----------



## Mohican (Jul 15, 2015)

I found neem powder at the Indian Market!

I saw the neem toothpaste and so I asked. He took me right to it! He said his father would make a tea with it and spray his plants!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 15, 2015)

Joedank said:


> even the seeds of the seeds of a crocus treated plant wont be in my garden . unless i am duped .... look it up that "forced polyplody " is bullshit breeding....and you cannot smoke the outcome...


Maybe it's bs, maybe it's not. All I know is that this plant grew like no other I've ever grown.
"*Strawberry Blue* is a stabilized male hybrid: pollen obtained from genetically modified plants. The male is procured from a quantity of plants cultivated using mitotic inhibitors resulting in polysomic males with a multiplicity of diverse genes. These mutant hybrids were then selected and classified according to their properties to obtain genetics with the potential for further hybridization." Directly from seedsmans website.
Could they be bluffing? Of course, but why?



cannakis said:


> No sir I must disagree, you proved yourself right there that the gmo did Not work, by contracting grey mold.
> 
> Breeding I believe is beneficial but the genetic modification of organisms has Proven relentlessly that it Is Much worse than Traditional Heirloom crops, which contain a plethora of beneficial attributes for just One species, which with today's Global world as is being done now we can obtain Varieties of certain Species that contain a desired trait and Breed them with one's current Locally breed species which has already developed its own Regional Attributes.
> 
> GMOs are Death not Life.


I got grey mold because my rh spiked to 89% for two "nights" with mid 70s temps, because of my brain fart. Plus it's stormed 48/65 of the last days in my area, there's mold everywhere!
I'm in no way defending the genetic modifications that companies like Monsanto make, I do however see the benefits of forcing mutations in certain cultivars. So far it's the perfect morning smoke for me, seems to have almost no Myrcene in it and rich in Limonene, it feels like it might have a somewhat decent ratio of cannabinoids for pain relief as well. My back likes this weed more than my tongue does!


----------



## cannakis (Jul 15, 2015)

Joedank said:


> even the seeds of the seeds of a crocus treated plant wont be in my garden . unless i am duped .... look it up that "forced polyplody " is bullshit breeding....and you cannot smoke the outcome...


Really!?! Links?!


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## cannakis (Jul 15, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I found neem powder at the Indian Market!
> 
> I saw the neem toothpaste and so I asked. He took me right to it! He said his father would make a tea with it and spray his plants!


That is awesome!


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## Joedank (Jul 15, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Really!?! Links?!


here is an old quote from breeder of c-99
Author: MrSoulSubject: MrSoul Colchicine? Description: That's H.E. Warmke. He claimed to have doubled the potency (measured by it's toxicity to fish) but his methodology seems flawed to me. The colchicine (EXTREMELY poisonous stuff) was more likely the cause of the fish deaths than increased levels of THC; which isn't very toxic even in very high concentrations.My take on polyploidy is that it's best left to research projects. I think the uncertainty of positive results and possibilty of poisoning oneself with colchicine make it a dangerous waste of time for most growers. The art of breeding cannabis is sufficiently complex without the added complications of polyploidy. Read pages 70 - 75 of Tom Flowers' "Marijuana Flower Forcing" and form your own opinion. I feel there is no need to play games with polyploidy when there are so many fine, potent strains available.

If this is not enough for you read this whole link and EXPAND your mind :http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/breeding/colchicine.htm
the posioning can be read as birthdefects in your next of kin sperm not working ect... used in gout treatment but//// sideeffects abound even at .05mol...


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jul 15, 2015)

Joedank said:


> here is an old quote from breeder of c-99
> Author: MrSoulSubject: MrSoul Colchicine? Description: That's H.E. Warmke. He claimed to have doubled the potency (measured by it's toxicity to fish) but his methodology seems flawed to me. The colchicine (EXTREMELY poisonous stuff) was more likely the cause of the fish deaths than increased levels of THC; which isn't very toxic even in very high concentrations.My take on polyploidy is that it's best left to research projects. I think the uncertainty of positive results and possibilty of poisoning oneself with colchicine make it a dangerous waste of time for most growers. The art of breeding cannabis is sufficiently complex without the added complications of polyploidy. Read pages 70 - 75 of Tom Flowers' "Marijuana Flower Forcing" and form your own opinion. I feel there is no need to play games with polyploidy when there are so many fine, potent strains available.
> 
> If this is not enough for you read this whole link and EXPAND your mind :http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/breeding/colchicine.htm
> the posioning can be read as birthdefects in your next of kin sperm not working ect... used in gout treatment but//// sideeffects abound even at .05mol...


I've read all of this (=
This is also data that's over 15 years old. With the rate of acceleration in the curve of our technological advancements, I find it hard not to believe, to be honest. The navy has rail guns, we've cloned animals, we've split an atom, we've taken close up pictures of Pluto, we've sequenced the human genome... I mean come on. Is it really that hard to believe that someone out there figured out how to keep one of the parents chromosomes from splitting and to display that trait in offspring?


----------



## cannakis (Jul 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> here is an old quote from breeder of c-99
> Author: MrSoulSubject: MrSoul Colchicine? Description: That's H.E. Warmke. He claimed to have doubled the potency (measured by it's toxicity to fish) but his methodology seems flawed to me. The colchicine (EXTREMELY poisonous stuff) was more likely the cause of the fish deaths than increased levels of THC; which isn't very toxic even in very high concentrations.My take on polyploidy is that it's best left to research projects. I think the uncertainty of positive results and possibilty of poisoning oneself with colchicine make it a dangerous waste of time for most growers. The art of breeding cannabis is sufficiently complex without the added complications of polyploidy. Read pages 70 - 75 of Tom Flowers' "Marijuana Flower Forcing" and form your own opinion. I feel there is no need to play games with polyploidy when there are so many fine, potent strains available.
> 
> If this is not enough for you read this whole link and EXPAND your mind :http://www.cannabase.com/cl/bcga/breeding/colchicine.htm
> the posioning can be read as birthdefects in your next of kin sperm not working ect... used in gout treatment but//// sideeffects abound even at .05mol...


Damn! Yeah definitely the Chem haha I Laugh at the thought of a Cannabinoid being toxic! Completely opposite!


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## cannakis (Jul 17, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've read all of this (=
> This is also data that's over 15 years old. With the rate of acceleration in the curve of our technological advancements, I find it hard not to believe, to be honest. The navy has rail guns, we've cloned animals, we've split an atom, we've taken close up pictures of Pluto, we've sequenced the human genome... I mean come on. Is it really that hard to believe that someone out there figured out how to keep one of the parents chromosomes from splitting and to display that trait in offspring?


The quote provided doesn't say it's Not capable of producing more and higher buzz (from the chemical!!!) he is Stating that it is Toxic and not Safe. 

Hey to each his own... But don't write legislation Prohibiting me from continuing to grow my Heirloom strains.! Fuck all the patented gmo bull shit!


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## Joedank (Jul 17, 2015)

cannakis said:


> The quote provided doesn't say it's Not capable of producing more and higher buzz (from the chemical!!!) he is Stating that it is Toxic and not Safe.
> 
> Hey to each his own... But don't write legislation Prohibiting me from continuing to grow my Heirloom strains.! Fuck all the patented gmo bull shit!


yes this is just what is being said thank you for your UNDERSATNDING. 
on a side note did you know the seeds for the ruby red grapefruit were treated with gamma rays...lol


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## hyroot (Jul 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> yes this is just what is being said thank you for your UNDERSATNDING.
> on a side note did you know the seeds for the ruby red grapefruit were treated with gamma rays...lol



Do they give you super powers?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 18, 2015)

cannakis said:


> The quote provided doesn't say it's Not capable of producing more and higher buzz (from the chemical!!!) he is Stating that it is Toxic and not Safe.
> 
> Hey to each his own... But don't write legislation Prohibiting me from continuing to grow my Heirloom strains.! Fuck all the patented gmo bull shit!


Well so far I haven't experienced any negative side effects and it grew amazingly, sooo I'm in favor of it. That being said, I love my Chinese landrace even more.


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## cannakis (Jul 18, 2015)

Joedank said:


> yes this is just what is being said thank you for your UNDERSATNDING.
> on a side note did you know the seeds for the ruby red grapefruit were treated with gamma rays...lol


Haha I think @hyroot might be on to something let's unite or Gamma Rays Hyroot!

But that's interesting though... What breeder? Hey it's science man it's definitely safe.!


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## cannakis (Jul 18, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Well so far I haven't experienced any negative side effects and it grew amazingly, sooo I'm in favor of it. That being said, I love my Chinese landrace even more. View attachment 3461708


What is that a picture of? Hey more power to you... We ALL are eating or drinking gmos on a daily basis in high doses... I just pray by JESUS CHRIST'S HOLY NAME that HE keeps me healthy and whole.! Thank GOD for the Awakening happening right now.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jul 18, 2015)

Any idea what these are. I've found a few different identifications. 16 inch pan. They are clear white. I have found some fungus gnats I believe, but these were under my pot and don't have the black head I've read about. 
Edit on closer look it seems the inside of the head is black. And fungus gnats are hanging around the holes in the bottom of my pots.


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## Mohican (Jul 19, 2015)

They will try to get to your roots in any way possible. Try putting your pots in larger containers and covering the holes with an inch of soil. Sticky traps work great at catching the adults.


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## cannakis (Jul 19, 2015)

Mohican said:


> They will try to get to your roots in any way possible. Try putting your pots in larger containers and covering the holes with an inch of soil. Sticky traps work great at catching the adults.


Man just had some Thai haze landrace "supposedly" last night holy shit that is some good stuff I Really want to smoke some of that Beautiful landrace Sativa you've got! Soon... Soon...


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 19, 2015)

cannakis said:


> What is that a picture of? Hey more power to you... We ALL are eating or drinking gmos on a daily basis in high doses... I just pray by JESUS CHRIST'S HOLY NAME that HE keeps me healthy and whole.! Thank GOD for the Awakening happening right now.


It's my Chinese landrace prior post wet trim. I'm a huge proponent of growing heirlooms/landraces.


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## cannakis (Jul 19, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> It's my Chinese landrace prior post wet trim. I'm a huge proponent of growing heirlooms/landraces.


Nice... Do you have a cure picture? How's the high? Breeder? Yeah man we need to hold on to the heirlooms landraces and Heritage breeds.!


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## Steelheader3430 (Jul 19, 2015)

Mohican said:


> They will try to get to your roots in any way possible. Try putting your pots in larger containers and covering the holes with an inch of soil. Sticky traps work great at catching the adults.


Thanks Mo!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 20, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Nice... Do you have a cure picture? How's the high? Breeder? Yeah man we need to hold on to the heirlooms landraces and Heritage breeds.!


I'll have to take one later when I'm at home. It's, interesting that's for sure. It's calming and centering, definitely an indica, sans the stone. Starts out like a pure sativa with nothing but mental effects and then the calmness creeps in. The taste has changed from sweet cream, to just sweet, to black pepper, and now back to sweet. My girl and I can't figure out why the taste has been changing so much, but we love it regardless. It's good midday smoke or night smoke if you're planning to stay up and be attentive to something. It isn't terribly potent but it seems to have a good ratio for medicinal benefits. I got the seeds from Ace


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## nvhak49 (Jul 21, 2015)

Ok this might come off as a stupid question but I'm just starting off to grow full organic recycled soil, but my question is that when you harvest a plant and you reuse that soil are you guys removing most of the roots in it as possible or are you just leaving the smaller ones in there that ripped off from the root ball? I've been trying to find a answer on google but no rea answers yet thought I'd post on here and see what you guys have to say. I love the idea of recycling soil and composing which I've already start to do to mix into my recycles soil too.


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## Mohican (Jul 21, 2015)

The no-till guys just start a new plant in the same container.


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## Chronikool (Jul 21, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Ok this might come off as a stupid question but I'm just starting off to grow full organic recycled soil, but my question is that when you harvest a plant and you reuse that soil are you guys removing most of the roots in it as possible or are you just leaving the smaller ones in there that ripped off from the root ball? I've been trying to find a answer on google but no rea answers yet thought I'd post on here and see what you guys have to say. I love the idea of recycling soil and composing which I've already start to do to mix into my recycles soil too.


Cut ready to harvest plant off at the base (in line with the soil) and feed soil with a high enzyme substance to get the wheelz in motion and start the breaking down process . (seed sprout tea, coconut water, diastatic malt or any other organic enzyme) I like to rest my soil for a couple of weekz while i re amend by wayz of top dressing, and re-igniting my microbes with numerous teas to freshen the party... 

I then plant my clone in the soil...and away we go... (i keep up my seed sprout teaz every week (combo of barley, mung and alfalfa seedz) and if im low on time....diastatic malt. 

Still a lot of nutrientz stored in those breaking down rootz..

Hoped that helped..


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## Chronikool (Jul 21, 2015)

Also...keeping a cover crop active during growing cycle is handy as it keepz the myco active and established. I have planted a crop week 6 and 7 and it carries into the harvest - rest - veg cycles...


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## nvhak49 (Jul 21, 2015)

Ok cool thanks a lot guys seems simple enough I'll just no till and put what you said when I water. What do you mean by cover crop, like for top dressing when the plant needs it? One more question too, how are you guys keeping the fungus gnats away or at least controlled cuz right not my veg tent has a lot of them I've been trying a few diff things seems to be helping some but I didn't know if you guy had a good way to get rid of them. Sorry for all the stupid questions.


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## Scotch089 (Jul 21, 2015)

Mosquito dunks, and have crab meal, neem seed meal, and something else in your soil... forget. 

But big shout to stow for telling me minimal problems since, and when I do, I dunk.


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## nvhak49 (Jul 21, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Mosquito dunks, and have crab meal, neem seed meal, and something else in your soil... forget.
> 
> But big shout to stow for telling me minimal problems since, and when I do, I dunk.


Do you just add the dunks to your water before watering your plants? I've never thought about doing that too and will if that's the case cuz I've used the crush up bits and they seemed to work good I just can't find those any where, where I live but I never thought about just buying the dunks and putting a piece of one in 2 gallons of water than water my girls.


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## Mohican (Jul 22, 2015)

I found neem powder at the Indian Market.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm battling FG too. Yellow sticky cards and dunks. I crumbled one up in a 5 gallon bucket of water. Then add a solo cup of that to my 2 gallon water can. Hopefully it'll knock em out. It's always something.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 22, 2015)

When I had a fungas gnat problem I'd take two or three dunks, crumble into a five gallon bucket, bubble for 24 hours, then soaked my planters. I also topdressed with some of the dry crumbled dunks too. Now I just use neem/karanja meal from bas and some vermicompost as a top dress if I see any.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 22, 2015)

Steelheader3430 said:


> I'm battling FG too. Yellow sticky cards and dunks. I crumbled one up in a 5 gallon bucket of water. Then add a solo cup of that to my 2 gallon water can. Hopefully it'll knock em out. It's always something.


This might not seem like the best idea at first but try investing in carnivorous plants! The one for fungus gnats that is very effective is cape sundew. 2 stopped an infestation at my house. Your welcome


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## hyroot (Jul 22, 2015)

If you have gnats. All you have to do is Topdress compost and castings. And that's it. Within a week they'll be gone. You don't have to get jiggy with all kinds of concoctions and gimmicks. Remember like rols , keep it simple.


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## Steelheader3430 (Jul 22, 2015)

The gnats came with some compost I bought. My pile just won't take off. I'll definitely follow up with the top dressing advice though.


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## DonPetro (Jul 23, 2015)

Steelheader3430 said:


> The gnats came with some compost I bought. My pile just won't take off. I'll definitely follow up with the top dressing advice though.


I'm having the same problem with my compost. I think i have too much "brown" material and not enough "green". I can tell its breaking down by the size of the pile but the heat isnt there like it should be. I'm gonna turn it, add some grass clippings and see what happens.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 23, 2015)

hyroot said:


> If you have gnats. All you have to do is Topdress compost and castings. And that's it. Within a week they'll be gone. You don't have to get jiggy with all kinds of concoctions and gimmicks. Remember like rols , keep it simple.


In my room fungus gnats laugh at worm castings mixed with crab shell and neem. But the carnivorous plants had the last laugh and now they are gone


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> In my room fungus gnats laugh at worm castings mixed with crab shell and neem. But the carnivorous plants had the last laugh and now they are gone


Either you dont layer it thick enough about 1-2 inches or you need to get better castings. Make your own.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 23, 2015)

Mine are nice homemade. Just never ever saw a difference with castings


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jul 23, 2015)

anyone out there ever use AMAZE foliar spray to boost brix in a organic grow?


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## Pattahabi (Jul 23, 2015)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Any idea what these are. I've found a few different identifications. 16 inch pan. They are clear white. I have found some fungus gnats I believe, but these were under my pot and don't have the black head I've read about.
> Edit on closer look it seems the inside of the head is black. And fungus gnats are hanging around the holes in the bottom of my pots.


They look like *enchytraeids (pot worms lol)*. Nothing I'd worry too much about themselves. I have heard people say they sometimes show up when soil conditions are too wet, too acidic, etc. That's about all I know.



Peace!

P-


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2015)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> anyone out there ever use AMAZE foliar spray to boost brix in a organic grow?



Brix is the sugar content of the plant. Which also. Rings out flavor. Enhancing terpenes. . Watering with molasses or seed sprout teas will raise the. Rid levels quite a bit.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> They look like *enchytraeids (pot worms lol)*. Nothing I'd worry too much about themselves. I have heard people say they sometimes show up when soil conditions are too wet, too acidic, etc. That's about all I know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


hey i'll be damned... a pat sighting...
Hows life man?


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 24, 2015)

Steelheader3430 said:


> Any idea what these are. I've found a few different identifications. 16 inch pan. They are clear white. I have found some fungus gnats I believe, but these were under my pot and don't have the black head I've read about.
> Edit on closer look it seems the inside of the head is black. And fungus gnats are hanging around the holes in the bottom of my pots.


a layer of horticultural sand works damn good for that, and if it's bad, go buy the xxxl size pantyhose and modify to "screen" your soil, problem with that is it's more of a preventative thing rather than killing them off, but an inch layer of sand keep them from getting to the organic soil underneath it, and obviously the panty hose is like a screen.


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## bicit (Jul 24, 2015)

So does anyone have idea's on where to get good 'brown' material for a compost pile? I have grass clippings for days, but no brown material this time of year. All the local wood processing businesses have started charging for their waste material... 

I seem to have this issue with composting. Either I can get tons of green and no brown. Or I can get tons of brown, but no green material. So I end up having to dispose of the excess green material to keep unpleasant smells in check.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 24, 2015)

bicit said:


> So does anyone have idea's on where to get good 'brown' material for a compost pile? I have grass clippings for days, but no brown material this time of year. All the local wood processing businesses have started charging for their waste material...
> 
> I seem to have this issue with composting. Either I can get tons of green and no brown. Or I can get tons of brown, but no green material. So I end up having to dispose of the excess green material to keep unpleasant smells in check.


Go buy a bag or two of nice "natural wood" mulch, screen it and use that. I use that stuff in garden beds every year. If you can find it, use mushroom compost. It's loaded with good stuff. I get mycelia growth like crazy when I use it as a mulch, soil amendment, or just when tossing leftover scraps in the compost pile.

Or, let your grass sit out on a tarp in the sun until it's dried.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hey i'll be damned... a pat sighting...
> Hows life man?


What?! Who? Where? I know nothing... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it! 

Hope you are doing well man! It is FrYday, done with the non cannabis work, time to start in the garden! Now someone hand my f'n pipe! 

The Prayer Tower turned out amazing this run. The Lemon Thai really comes through in taste and high.


Peace!

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> What?! Who? Where? I know nothing... that's my story, and I'm sticking to it!
> 
> Hope you are doing well man! It is FrYday, done with the non cannabis work, time to start in the garden! Now someone hand my f'n pipe!
> 
> ...


damn those are some CLOSELY clustered trichs!
Wow!
is that the prayer tower?
How long on the lemon thai, heard that one was a long one.


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 24, 2015)

bicit said:


> So does anyone have idea's on where to get good 'brown' material for a compost pile? I have grass clippings for days, but no brown material this time of year. All the local wood processing businesses have started charging for their waste material...
> 
> I seem to have this issue with composting. Either I can get tons of green and no brown. Or I can get tons of brown, but no green material. So I end up having to dispose of the excess green material to keep unpleasant smells in check.


what I do man, is simply get some alfalfa feed as your greens. When you can't get the greens that is...
And man... I am going to RAPE the area around my neck of the woods this year for it leaves.
I got SOOO many last yr, and they STILL ended up like a 15th of the size when I started. Not enough for my leafmold..
My leaf shredder broke...
Layer alfalfa over the leaves, you can use amendments too, I used old bat guano (the nitrogen one), shrimp meal, grass clippingss
BUT your question was for browns..
You have access to a forest?
Rotten wood chunks from fallen tree logs would work, and is also a good way to add aeration and humus.
Another idea is maybe some old soil?
primarily you want to provide aeration to the greens, so in theory you could layer it with any aeration, stuff like perlite or whatever.
That's why I suggested old soil.
Obviously you DO want the correct ratio of carbons to nitrogen


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## Pattahabi (Jul 24, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> damn those are some CLOSELY clustered trichs!
> Wow!
> is that the prayer tower?
> How long on the lemon thai, heard that one was a long one.


Thanks Grease! The picture is Prayer Tower (a sativa Lemon Thai x Appalachia). Crossing it to the appy male really cut down on the flowering time. This pheno went 11 weeks.

This is a new pheno that will hopefully be going into flowering soon.


Peace!

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Jul 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Thanks Grease! The picture is Prayer Tower (a sativa Lemon Thai x Appalachia). Crossing it to the appy male really cut down on the flowering time. This pheno went 11 weeks.
> 
> This is a new pheno that will hopefully be going into flowering soon.
> View attachment 3465632
> ...


Nice< 11 weeks ain't bad at all, for a sativa girl that is.
I have the FATTEST squattiest male tranquil elephantiser redux, it's shorter and stinkier than the females I have.
Weird.
And i'm sorta chapped cuz all six of my pineapple hashplants are female... yea, yea, I know.. shouldn't bitch..
Gonna stud that bad boy..


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## Mohican (Jul 24, 2015)

@Pattahabi - what is your main source of PK to get that nice resin coverage?


----------



## Pattahabi (Jul 24, 2015)

Mohican said:


> @Pattahabi - what is your main source of PK to get that nice resin coverage?


Hey Mo! Honestly, I haven't paid attention to npk for a long time now. I attribute the resin coverage to enzyme teas and just overall healthier plants. 

Peace!

P-


----------



## DonPetro (Jul 24, 2015)

Mohican said:


> @Pattahabi - what is your main source of PK to get that nice resin coverage?


Mo, have you ever tried soluble seaweed and micronized soft rock phosphate? My peppers are really digging the combo. I add 1/2 tsp of each per gallon of water and apply every other watering.


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## Mohican (Jul 24, 2015)

I have been using kelp juice with every water. I added a bunch of different minerals to the garden including greensand, azomite, and bone. I also compost weeds to get available silica. My dandelions are massive this year! 

When I dug the holes in the screen room there were worms the size of pencils! They looked like small snakes 

I put these in the ground finally:



Cheers,
Mo


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## bicit (Jul 26, 2015)

hyroot said:


> *Brix is the sugar content of the plant. *Which also. Rings out flavor. Enhancing terpenes. . Watering with molasses or seed sprout teas will raise the. Rid levels quite a bit.


Do you have a good link that goes over this in a bit more detail?



greasemonkeymann said:


> what I do man, is simply get some alfalfa feed as your greens. When you can't get the greens that is...
> And man... I am going to RAPE the area around my neck of the woods this year for it leaves.
> I got SOOO many last yr, and they STILL ended up like a 15th of the size when I started. Not enough for my leafmold..
> My leaf shredder broke...
> ...


I do have access to lots of old wood, I just don't have a means of breaking it down. I don't have a chipper or chainsaw unfortunately. I'm actually getting ready to experiment with some hagelkultur raised beds for my vegi garden because of this. 

Would waste paper products suffice? I had been planning on just setting the leaves in their own pile this year so I can get some leaf mold.


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## Mohican (Jul 27, 2015)

Wood chips should be readily available almost everywhere. People are cutting down trees all the time!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 27, 2015)

Anyone here ever ran an organic sog in a soil bed? I'm testing a couple strains and I think it may end up easier for me to work with 20+ cuttings in a bed instead of multiple planters, etc.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 27, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone here ever ran an organic sog in a soil bed? I'm testing a couple strains and I think it may end up easier for me to work with 20+ cuttings in a bed instead of multiple planters, etc.


I may be the wrong person to answer since I always fail at SOG but I have a 30 gallon planter that I tried a sog in. It measured 21x21 inches and had 5 plants. Turned out to be a mess because tying them down required tying to other plants and even though the plants were same strain the did not grow uniform. Just my experiences. The lettuce I harvested before planting in the pot was good tho


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 27, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I may be the wrong person to answer since I always fail at SOG but I have a 30 gallon planter that I tried a sog in. It measured 21x21 inches and had 5 plants. Turned out to be a mess because tying them down required tying to other plants and even though the plants were same strain the did not grow uniform. Just my experiences. The lettuce I harvested before planting in the pot was good tho


How long did you veg your clones before planting them and how big were they? 
I've got about a month and a half to make up my mind. All my seedlings are still only 3 weeks old, so I still have to sex and everything else before I get to flowering clones.
Ideally I'd like to veg well rooted ~8inch clones for 10-14 days then flower. I'm testing genetics so I'm not chasing yield in any regards. Though I am excited to have some blueberry genetics in my headstash!


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 27, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> How long did you veg your clones before planting them and how big were they?
> I've got about a month and a half to make up my mind. All my seedlings are still only 3 weeks old, so I still have to sex and everything else before I get to flowering clones.
> Ideally I'd like to veg well rooted ~8inch clones for 10-14 days then flower. I'm testing genetics so I'm not chasing yield in any regards. Though I am excited to have some blueberry genetics in my headstash!


I planted the clones at 6 inches high and flowered at 10-12 inches. I'd say for my room height that is tall enough. Mine always stretch a lot, about 2 feet min but of course not the same genetics. If your not looking for yield and instead genetics then SOG would be best for comparison and all that. Just be careful of the stretch it gets out of hand for me in sog. But then again this isn't my only hobby. How big is the soil bed? can you access all sides of it?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 27, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I planted the clones at 6 inches high and flowered at 10-12 inches. I'd say for my room height that is tall enough. Mine always stretch a lot, about 2 feet min but of course not the same genetics. If your not looking for yield and instead genetics then SOG would be best for comparison and all that. Just be careful of the stretch it gets out of hand for me in sog. But then again this isn't my only hobby. How big is the soil bed? can you access all sides of it?


If I build a soil bed(s) ideally I'd like at a bare minimum of two gallons per clone, maybe 3 or 4 if I have the space. I like the idea of one soil bed per strain but that may end up not working out. Especially if I've got 20+ cuttings to work with at a time. In my mind currently I have the idea of buying some of the rectangular pvc pipe fabric planters bas sells, I'd have to double check their sizes though. Height shouldn't be an issue as I'm moving soon and will have a dedicated room for this project (instead of sleeping in the same room as my flowering tent), so at least 6ft from soil to light. I should be able to access three sides of it/them, if anything I'll just have to reach around a backside or something.


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## DonPetro (Jul 27, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone here ever ran an organic sog in a soil bed? I'm testing a couple strains and I think it may end up easier for me to work with 20+ cuttings in a bed instead of multiple planters, etc.


I think @DonTesla did something similar...maybe he can help.


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## Kind Sir (Jul 27, 2015)

My plan for my first run with organics was going to be using subcools revised recipe. Ive been told not too by a few people, I am in the middle of sourcing the ingredients but dont want to start organics off on the wrong foot. 

I am making my own worm bin, and dedicating a whole bedroom to this project. I already have Ocean Forest but might just order some Roots Organic to keep things by the book. I know it could take a few months to have the soil completely ready so I want to start it asap for the nice winter months. 
Im very excited about the worm bin and organics in general, Im not necessarily looking for a recipe..just as to why subcools revised SS isnt the way to go?


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 27, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If I build a soil bed(s) ideally I'd like at a bare minimum of two gallons per clone, maybe 3 or 4 if I have the space. I like the idea of one soil bed per strain but that may end up not working out. Especially if I've got 20+ cuttings to work with at a time. In my mind currently I have the idea of buying some of the rectangular pvc pipe fabric planters bas sells, I'd have to double check their sizes though. Height shouldn't be an issue as I'm moving soon and will have a dedicated room for this project (instead of sleeping in the same room as my flowering tent), so at least 6ft from soil to light. I should be able to access three sides of it/them, if anything I'll just have to reach around a backside or something.


I would at least keep the soil bed whole so you don't have to worry about the soil web, water, and nutrients falling short. You can also plant cover crops to increase production, I love yarrow and chamomile(clover attracts mites!). I've experienced with sog that reaching around the back to deal with plants will become a big pain, but I hate hard work lol. It will become a high humidity microclimate after the plants fill in and any changes or moving from there is hell. I'm not sure if you decided on spacing but 7 inch spacing with a foot of pot height would make them happy as all get out. And a foot and a half height would be gardening without effort


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## Joedank (Jul 27, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> My plan for my first run with organics was going to be using subcools revised recipe. Ive been told not too by a few people, I am in the middle of sourcing the ingredients but dont want to start organics off on the wrong foot.
> 
> I am making my own worm bin, and dedicating a whole bedroom to this project. I already have Ocean Forest but might just order some Roots Organic to keep things by the book. I know it could take a few months to have the soil completely ready so I want to start it asap for the nice winter months.
> Im very excited about the worm bin and organics in general, Im not necessarily looking for a recipe..just as to why subcools revised SS isnt the way to go?


i just avoid the blood and bone (execpt fish) and its a good recipie. bottom half of container then rest roots soil ... bam good start in organics . and just add water gardening.... the 1/3, 1/3,1/3 mix is fine and dandy for later but . its easy to cook up a batch of supersoil and have a great grow...


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Jul 28, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Mo, have you ever tried soluble seaweed and micronized soft rock phosphate? My peppers are really digging the combo. I add 1/2 tsp of each per gallon of water and apply every other watering.


Don any recommendations on reliable source for the soluble seaweed? Currently using Neptune's harvest seaweed fertilizer if that will do ? and for SRP I'm using calphos. Drop some knowledge on me if you don't mind, I'm open.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 28, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I would at least keep the soil bed whole so you don't have to worry about the soil web, water, and nutrients falling short. You can also plant cover crops to increase production, I love yarrow and chamomile(clover attracts mites!). I've experienced with sog that reaching around the back to deal with plants will become a big pain, but I hate hard work lol. It will become a high humidity microclimate after the plants fill in and any changes or moving from there is hell. I'm not sure if you decided on spacing but 7 inch spacing with a foot of pot height would make them happy as all get out. And a foot and a half height would be gardening without effort


I'm thinking of running one 3ft x 3ft x 12in (deep) fabric bed for all of the cuts. If my math is right it's approximately 57 dry gallons if filled to the brim. So after sexing that should leave me with around 2 - 3 gallons per clone even if I only have about 45-50 gallons of soil in it. I also considered running two of BAS' 36" x 16" x 14" deep fabric planters, but one seems easier to manage.

Aside from that, has anyone ever meddled with cmh much? I've been pondering getting a small wattage one just to play around with. I've heard the spectrum is great from seed to bloom, but I've only messed with mh/hps.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm thinking of running one 3ft x 3ft x 12in (deep) fabric bed for all of the cuts. If my math is right it's approximately 57 dry gallons if filled to the brim. So after sexing that should leave me with around 2 - 3 gallons per clone even if I only have about 45-50 gallons of soil in it. I also considered running two of BAS' 36" x 16" x 14" deep fabric planters, but one seems easier to manage.
> 
> Aside from that, has anyone ever meddled with cmh much? I've been pondering getting a small wattage one just to play around with. I've heard the spectrum is great from seed to bloom, but I've only messed with mh/hps.


I have been contemplating a CMH for a while now, even started a thread, bit nobody responded...
Issue I have is mainly the HUGE difference in lumen output.
I'd use a CMH in conjunction with HPS, from what I have researched.
Just NOT as a sole source of light unless you are doing a small grow.
Also take your glass off if you decide to get one, it absorbs/reflects the uv..
I deally I am looking at two 600w hps, and one 400 CMH, in the middle.
BUT 1600 watts, plus the ballasts and you are damn near pushing 2k watts...
and I KNOW what two 1000s can do...
If I recall correctly the CMH puts out around a third of the lumens or less than a typical 600 w
and like half of what a normal 400w hps does.
This is all of memory though, but I remember the lumens being why I haven't got it yet.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I'm thinking of running one 3ft x 3ft x 12in (deep) fabric bed for all of the cuts. If my math is right it's approximately 57 dry gallons if filled to the brim. So after sexing that should leave me with around 2 - 3 gallons per clone even if I only have about 45-50 gallons of soil in it. I also considered running two of BAS' 36" x 16" x 14" deep fabric planters, but one seems easier to manage.
> 
> Aside from that, has anyone ever meddled with cmh much? I've been pondering getting a small wattage one just to play around with. I've heard the spectrum is great from seed to bloom, but I've only messed with mh/hps.


Can't wait to hear about it! I ran CMH before I went to Cree CXA 3070 and it was ok. I did not run bare bulb and got a pound off four plants in a 4x4. I only ran it once or twice. I was dying to switch because I hated buying bulbs. Probably better than hps/mh mix but I have never had a mixed spectrum bulb.


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## Mohican (Jul 28, 2015)

Scottyballs was using CMH the whole way through and getting a pound off of a Hydrofarm Pineapple Express plant grown with only Flora Nova Bloom (Lucas formula).


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## ShLUbY (Jul 28, 2015)

Hey everybody, going to try and giving living soil a trial run for a 3 run test to see how i do. I'm going to set up a garden bed on castors in my flower tent that can accommodate 2-3 small to medium plants in a single row (unless it is more beneficial to have them in their own separate containers but it would seem to me it's more natural and easier to do a whole bed). I just want to cut the plant, remove the large roots, fill in with compost, casting, rock dust mix and replant asap. Just had a couple questions...

What are the best sources for micronutrients when growing in living soil?? does the compost supply a lot of them? I'm talking the B, Cu, Mn, Mb, Cl, all that stuff. I've been looking at kelp meal but can't seem to find any info as to what micronutrients it provides (among the other things but i'm more insterested in the micros so my nutrient profile is complete). i'll be using oyster shell dust for Ca. How about magnesium... should i just water in epsom salts? I'm going to be including the rock dust trace minerals: azomite, and some form of basaltic (volcanic) rock dust, maybe even the glacial too; why the hell not?

I can't seem to find a good local compost.... is there a high enough quality brand name alternative that you guys know of at a decent deal to ship (though this is not preferred, I'd rather buy local).

that will be all for now. dont want to overwhelm anyone! Thanks


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 29, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Hey everybody, going to try and giving living soil a trial run for a 3 run test to see how i do. I'm going to set up a garden bed on castors in my flower tent that can accommodate 2-3 small to medium plants in a single row (unless it is more beneficial to have them in their own separate containers but it would seem to me it's more natural and easier to do a whole bed). I just want to cut the plant, remove the large roots, fill in with compost, casting, rock dust mix and replant asap. Just had a couple questions...
> 
> What are the best sources for micronutrients when growing in living soil?? does the compost supply a lot of them? I'm talking the B, Cu, Mn, Mb, Cl, all that stuff. I've been looking at kelp meal but can't seem to find any info as to what micronutrients it provides (among the other things but i'm more insterested in the micros so my nutrient profile is complete). i'll be using oyster shell dust for Ca. How about magnesium... should i just water in epsom salts? I'm going to be including the rock dust trace minerals: azomite, and some form of basaltic (volcanic) rock dust, maybe even the glacial too; why the hell not?
> 
> ...


If you absolutely have to order compost go with Oly Mountain, Buildasoil sells them cheap for online. Their vermicompost is top notch too. For micros I rely on kelp and good compost. Spring water, pond water, etc can have a couple of things like Ca in it.


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

coughphee.connoiseur said:


> anyone out there ever use AMAZE foliar spray to boost brix in a organic grow?


Ya, i use most of the IAG stuff. Most important points about high brix: you need to soil test and you cant be thinking compost is manna.

I dont think amaze is organic, but not positive.

@hyroot , pretty sure doc bud and co are the cannabis high brix leaders. they do not use molasses at all for at least 2 reasons : 1- it is high in K. K is kept at minimal levels in high brix and for that reason most compost is also not useful. 2-molasses is a food source for the biota. In high brix growing the goal is to develop a biological soil dynamic where the dominant microorganisms are digesting minerals for nourishment and not sugar.


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## hyroot (Jul 29, 2015)

testiclees said:


> Ya, i use most of the IAG stuff. Most important points about high brix: you need to soil test and you cant be thinking compost is manna.
> 
> I dont think amaze is organic, but not positive.
> 
> @hyroot , pretty sure doc bud and co are the cannabis high brix leaders. they do not use molasses at all for at least 2 reasons : 1- it is high in K. K is kept at minimal levels in high brix and for that reason most compost is also not useful. 2-molasses is a food source for the biota. In high brix growing the goal is to develop a biological soil dynamic where the dominant microorganisms are digesting minerals for nourishment and not sugar.




What happens to potassium when it breaks down... look it up. There's also plenty of sugars in molasses which is the food stock and does raise brix levels by increasing bacteria population and utilizing trace minerals already in molasses via chelating. If you dig around early on in this thread you will see the Harvard studies on molasses and water and plants i posted.

Btw I use corn seed sst for raising brix levels . I only use molasses once or twice and that's it.

If you don't think molasses raises brix levels I highly suggest getting a brix meter and test it.

I already have a long time ago. And documented in one of my threads. @GreenSanta did as well.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jul 29, 2015)

bicit said:


> Do you have a good link that goes over this in a bit more detail?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Call a local arborist(tree service) and ask them for some woodchips from the chipper.


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

hyroot said:


> What happens to potassium when it breaks down... look it up. There's also plenty of sugars in molasses which is the food stock and does raise brix levels by increasing bacteria population and utilizing trace minerals already in molasses via chelating. If you dig around early on in this thread you will see the Harvard studies on molasses and water and plants i posted.
> 
> Btw I use corn seed sst for raising brix levels . I only use molasses once or twice and that's it.
> 
> ...


Ive taken loads of brix readings on my ladies and at farmers markets for most of the growi g seaso over a few years..Refractometers are a very general assessment of nutritional content. Sap and tissue readings are far more legit. Perhaps molasses adds sugar to a plants vascular system. If you think that means its high brix, youre mistaken.

Jon Frank and John Kempf are probably the best known high brix crop consultants in the usa. As far as i know you will not find molasses in their products. The role of the soil.microbes in bigh brix growing is to digest the mineral content in the growing media. Adding molasses has the opposite effect by offeriing the organisms donuts and soda rather than square meal..think about it


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jul 29, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I think I may have found a gem of a find in regards to soil mix "amendments". I was doing some landscaping work for a relative recently and ran out of topsoil. They said they'd buy more but they live on the edge of the woods so I told them that's completely unnecessary, I'd go dig up some really top notch midwest forest humus. Well in doing this I found what appears to be the remnants of a once colossal tree stump. The soil is a very dark and rich black/brown and has a very porous texture. Smells absolutely amazing too. About a foot below the top of the soil I find lumps of rotten wood thats almost unrecognizable as such (Score!!). It's mostly leaf mold/rotted/en wood/ and our native clay based soil as far as I can tell.
> I plan to collect about 30 gallons of it to screen for my indoor notill planters / house plants. Hopefully once these rain storms let up I can get it screened and whatnot for pictures. I go on vacation next week so all of my projects that have been building up are going to get demolished!!


You can smell GOOD SOIL, call me nuts but im a firm believer in forest soil thats top notch has a unique smell, at least in northeastern forests, deciduous forest, with a sprinkling of cedar and pine patches every now and then has been very kind to me.


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## Joedank (Jul 29, 2015)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> You can smell GOOD SOIL, call me nuts but im a firm believer in forest soil thats top notch has a unique smell, at least in northeastern forests, deciduous forest, with a sprinkling of cedar and pine patches every now and then has been very kind to me.


new studies show that old growth forest has 1000's of myclium per slide way more than bacterial counts...
sap is the way to go . if you can afford tissue analysis imo..


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 29, 2015)

testiclees said:


> Ya, i use most of the IAG stuff. Most important points about high brix: you need to soil test and you cant be thinking compost is manna.
> 
> I dont think amaze is organic, but not positive.
> 
> @hyroot , pretty sure doc bud and co are the cannabis high brix leaders. they do not use molasses at all for at least 2 reasons : 1- it is high in K. K is kept at minimal levels in high brix and for that reason most compost is also not useful. 2-molasses is a food source for the biota. In high brix growing the goal is to develop a biological soil dynamic where the dominant microorganisms are digesting minerals for nourishment and not sugar.


Doc bud just seems to be peddling his "kit" more than anything else.


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## nvhak49 (Jul 29, 2015)

What's a good enzyme to help break down old roots?


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## Mohican (Jul 29, 2015)

Kelp/Seaweed is great for supplying micronutrients.

I also drop a tablet of Chelated Copper supplements into my water.


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## Darth Vapour (Jul 29, 2015)

hey you Bunch of hooligans lol figured i post how my simple 40 / 40 compost and top soil mix is doing 10 percent cardboard , 5 percent grass clippings and 5 percent worms with only rain water first up one big plnt she stand 8 + feet tall and easy 8+ feet wide Cherry pie x pck she will finish 12 - 13 feet tall and hoping for 10 pound harvest anyways 0 nutrients only water is from rain fall 

Second up is week 4 from force flipping strain cherry pie x pck again 0 nutrients 0 teas only rain water fed pretty impressed with this simple soil mixture and top dressing fresh gras clippings only    

Enjoy


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Doc bud just seems to be peddling his "kit" more than anything else.


no more than anyone who has a product they believe in. Doc's got hundreds of very good grows credited to his kit and dozens that are spectacular by any measure.

Plus its, about 80$..

How many nitwits right here spend $100s cluelessly enriching bottled magic sheisters.


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> What's a good enzyme to help break down old roots?


z-hume works


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> hey you Bunch of hooligans lol figured i post how my simple 40 / 40 compost and top soil mix is doing 10 percent cardboard , 5 percent grass clippings and 5 percent worms with only rain water first up one big plnt she stand 8 + feet tall and easy 8+ feet wide Cherry pie x pck she will finish 12 - 13 feet tall and hoping for 10 pound harvest anyways 0 nutrients only water is from rain fall
> 
> Second up is week 4 from force flipping strain cherry pie x pck again 0 nutrients 0 teas only rain water fed pretty impressed with this simple soil mixture and top dressing fresh gras clippings only View attachment 3469037View attachment 3469049 View attachment 3469050 View attachment 3469052 View attachment 3469054
> 
> Enjoy


 damn DV, RESPECT those are beauties. they been outdoors whole time?


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 29, 2015)

testiclees said:


> no more than anyone who has a product they believe in. Doc's got hundreds of very good grows credited to his kit and dozens that are spectacular by any measure.
> 
> Plus its, about 80$..
> 
> How many nitwits right here spend $100s cluelessly enriching bottled magic sheisters.


That's a good comparison.... nitwits that spend all sorts of money on a bunch of bottles, and nitwits that buy in to docs magic kit. It's like a cult. smh


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's a good comparison.... nitwits that spend all sorts of money on a bunch of bottles, and nitwits that buy in to docs magic kit. It's like a cult. smh


you better google magic because those hundreds of pics showing kit bud at 420 are not magical they are smokeable.

keep it real bro


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## Darth Vapour (Jul 29, 2015)

testiclees said:


> damn DV, RESPECT those are beauties. they been outdoors whole time?


 Started seeds in door and out door or all there life even with snow hitting the ground  left them in buckets and planted in ground may 28'ish transplanted the one cherry pie flowering into that one and forced it to flower placing it into garage after 12 hrs of sunlight for 2 weeks and left it outdoor ever since 17 hrs of sunlight presently


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 29, 2015)

testiclees said:


> you better google magic because those hundreds of pics showing kit bud at 420 are not magical they are smokeable.
> 
> keep it real bro



I've looked at his pics. And?

He's no different than any other cat trying to cash in on this. Nothing wrong with that per se, but let's not get carried away. It's a plant, and a pretty easy one to grow at that.


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## Darth Vapour (Jul 29, 2015)

i spent absolutely nothing on my soil  and i tell you this is true organic compost and top soil with natural additives other then cardboard which the worms go nuts over ( Starch )


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've looked at his pics. And?
> 
> He's no different than any other cat trying to cash in on this. Nothing wrong with that per se, but let's not get carried away. It's a plant, and a pretty easy one to grow at that.


calling it "magic" is getting carried away. it seems like you dont appreciate the critical differences between science and magic.

Cashing in could mean being a lying POS or it could mean someone who has invested and done research creating something that works. Doc buds stuff is based on the exact science that IAG uses and very similar to others who follow Albrecht. It is based on soil science. Doc simply used IAG to consult on cannabis. It plainly works and it helps people grow superb weed, veggies too.

If you have experience with the kit share it with us please. It sounds to me like you dont know much about the concepts. Im wondering why you have an opinion.


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Started seeds in door and out door or all there life even with snow hitting the ground  left them in buckets and planted in ground may 28'ish transplanted the one cherry pie flowering into that one and forced it to flower placing it into garage after 12 hrs of sunlight for 2 weeks and left it outdoor ever since 17 hrs of sunlight presently


impressive

they are some robust females.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 29, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> i spent absolutely nothing on my soil  and i tell you this is true organic compost and top soil with natural additives other then cardboard which the worms go nuts over ( Starch )


Compost? That's expressly forbidden in Doc Buds high brix growing/kit.




testiclees said:


> calling it "magic" is getting carried away. it seems like you dont appreciate the critical differences between science and magic.
> 
> Cashing in could mean being a lying POS or it could mean someone who has invested and done research creating something that works. Doc buds stuff is based on the exact science that IAG uses and very similar to others who follow Albrecht. It is based on soil science. Doc simply used IAG to consult on cannabis. It plainly works and it helps people grow superb weed, veggies too.
> 
> If you have experience with the kit share it with us please. It sounds to me like you dont know much about the concepts. Im wondering why you have an opinion.


I have an opinion because the implication in the thread is bullshit. Use doc buds wonder kit, or else your weed will be inferior. Just like I have an opinion on a nutrient manufacturer suggesting you need 14 different bottles of salts to grow good weed.

I stopped reading when I saw that he frowns upon compost and potassium.

You seem pretty defensive over this. What's up?


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## Darth Vapour (Jul 29, 2015)

lol wtf is docs high brix growing kit ???? i tell yeah does plant look like low brix ??? shes extremely healthy for 5th week and only rain water used i will do brix reading in another 2 weeks lol as well send samples in on soil and buds to get tested for THC CBD and any toxins


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## Darth Vapour (Jul 29, 2015)

Sounds like some monkey trying to cash in on the organic trend with trying to sell you a product that will do better then what mother nature can do lol


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Compost? That's expressly forbidden in Doc Buds high brix growing/kit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Youre all salty dude...doc himself praised all those the cannabis cup flowers he sampled. he talks about other great bud often.

real simply id say you are talking out your ass. Concerning yourself with "implications" and dismissive of accepted soil chemistry and micro biology you havent got an insight youre busy grinding your ax


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 29, 2015)

testiclees said:


> Youre all salty dude...doc himself praised all those the cannabis cup flowers he sampled. he talks about other great bud often.
> 
> real simply id say you are talking out your ass. Concerning yourself with "implications" and dismissive of accepted soil chemistry and micro biology you havent got an insight youre busy grinding your ax


Have you read the thread? It reads like an infomercial. The guy can't go two posts without mentioning his "kit". I have no issues with folks trying to achieve high brix levels. It doesn't require a kit though.

He then advocates not using compost, or manures, or inputs high in potassium. Esentially he is saying my leaf mold/compost/rabbit manure/kelp meal mix is all wrong. I beg to differ.

 

If I have something to share with the community I share it. I don't figure out a way to capitalize on it.


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## testiclees (Jul 29, 2015)

those are sweet frosty bitches.

bro you can differ but you stii are mistaken. High brix indeed require an initial soil analysis, it requires whatever it takes amenment wise to bring the analysis into proper ratio. You cant use . magic you actually need a lab.

no question that you can do this on your own. i have. the attraction of yhe kit is that it lets you do it without without spending the 80$ for testing.

the kit is a good idea that grows great weed for a very reasonable investment. You might be irritated by his success but thats your personal issue buddy.


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## hyroot (Jul 29, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Have you read the thread? It reads like an infomercial. The guy can't go two posts without mentioning his "kit". I have no issues with folks trying to achieve high brix levels. It doesn't require a kit though.
> 
> He then advocates not using compost, or manures, or inputs high in potassium. Esentially he is saying my leaf mold/compost/rabbit manure/kelp meal mix is all wrong. I beg to differ.
> 
> ...



He's just reiterating what doc says without actually understanding it. Say your piece and let it be. You know what works regardless. Shit I achieve high brix levels with just a cootz mix and sst's and occasional molasses and compost tea. I'm just now using bio char for the first time. That's supposed to help with brix levels and give the bacteria a home to.chill in so to speak.

The cola looks pretty dank too.


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## testiclees (Jul 30, 2015)

hyroot said:


> He's just reiterating what doc says without actually understanding it. Say your piece and let it be. You know what works regardless. Shit I achieve high brix levels with just a cootz mix and sst's and occasional molasses and compost tea. I'm just now using bio char for the first time. That's supposed to help with brix levels and give the bacteria a home to.chill in so to speak.
> 
> The cola looks pretty dank too.


"without understanding" ? Every high brix grow i ever heard of starts with a soil test. Put up an analysis of the mess you think is producing high brix. Youre another gas bag convinced hes a gardening genius

im not reiterating lol, hy you are talking out your asshole again. Educate yourself on the priciples of the high brix method. I explained to you molasses has no place or very little in high brix just as compost is used in miniscule amounts. this isnt the teaching of Doc Bud its the priciples from the experiments in the early 20th century.

Having a refractometer doesnt make you a scientist. Do some reasearch and have a clue about the concept. You are mistaken in many of your gardening beliefs. Expect to be called a numbskull when you talk out your ass.


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Have you read the thread? It reads like an infomercial. The guy can't go two posts without mentioning his "kit". I have no issues with folks trying to achieve high brix levels. It doesn't require a kit though.
> 
> He then advocates not using compost, or manures, or inputs high in potassium. Esentially he is saying my leaf mold/compost/rabbit manure/kelp meal mix is all wrong. I beg to differ.
> 
> ...



Safe to say that leaf mold gets a thumbs up from you stow!?.............very nice......... rabbit manure is cheating!ha


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jul 30, 2015)

I really enjoy the information being thrown around in this thread, then again ive been here since its creation..........seen alot of stuff here at this thread, hell been ass deep in some of it, Is there anyway we can have the mindset of if it dont apply let that shit fly and move on? we had a good conversation going and it got stopped, can we get back on track please and thankyou?


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 30, 2015)

hyroot said:


> He's just reiterating what doc says without actually understanding it. Say your piece and let it be. You know what works regardless. Shit I achieve high brix levels with just a cootz mix and sst's and occasional molasses and compost tea. I'm just now using bio char for the first time. That's supposed to help with brix levels and give the bacteria a home to.chill in so to speak.
> 
> The cola looks pretty dank too.


I have to agree. I wanted to start with the Hi brix kit after switching from bottles but It was like switching from one company to another. High brix is not a challenge. After switching to ROLS I can leave my garden for days and come back and they look more healthy than when I left. With high brix you have to be there everyday like a scientist. Not how plants are grown.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 30, 2015)

testiclees said:


> those are sweet frosty bitches.
> 
> bro you can differ but you stii are mistaken. High brix indeed require an initial soil analysis, it requires whatever it takes amenment wise to bring the analysis into proper ratio. You cant use . magic you actually need a lab.
> 
> ...


I have a hard time believing this since plants dictate what they want when they want it. I do soil tests every other grow or three and my soil is pretty out of whack nutrient wise. Never had a problem and I still topdress with a shit ton of worm castings and nutrients every 4 weeks in flower. They love it and have a shiny aura. High brix is cool but is complicated. Health is what makes plants yield better and have a higher shelf life. I also grow veggies and I can say that a large amount of silica for the growing plant helps the fruits last months. They even seem more filling. Never actually done a high brix grow but I have looked into the bottles. Nothing special you can't do with even an FPE.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 30, 2015)

testiclees said:


> those are sweet frosty bitches.
> 
> bro you can differ but you stii are mistaken. High brix indeed require an initial soil analysis, it requires whatever it takes amenment wise to bring the analysis into proper ratio. You cant use . magic you actually need a lab.
> 
> ...


That's a reasonable post, and I don't entirely disagree. Growing high brix plants is a worthwhile goal. I'm not debating the science with you. 

I'm not irritated by his success. I simply look at it as someone trying to cash in. Like I said earlier, nothing wrong with that per se, but I'd prefer to see this info freely shared instead of having people line his pockets in order to get the results.


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## testiclees (Jul 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I have to agree. I wanted to start with the Hi brix kit after switching from bottles but It was like switching from one company to another. High brix is not a challenge. After switching to ROLS I can leave my garden for days and come back and they look more healthy than when I left. With high brix you have to be there everyday like a scientist. Not how plants are grown.


you dont bro. like the other folks here you dont know wtf youre talking about when it comes to high brix.

Sure there are many, many ways to grow great plants. No one is suggesting otherwise. However more opinions with Zero experience and even less research or understanding amounts to nothing more than ignorant bullshit. youre in good company on this thread of dry lab experts.


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## testiclees (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's a reasonable post, and I don't entirely disagree. Growing high brix plants is a worthwhile goal. I'm not debating the science with you.
> 
> I'm not irritated by his success. I simply look at it as someone trying to cash in. Like I said earlier, nothing wrong with that per se, but I'd prefer to see this info freely shared instead of having people line his pockets in order to get the results.


cool i got you. 

docs business idea is that its cheaper to use his gear than it is to start from scratch yourself.. He actually describes everything you need to know if youwanna take advantage of his research and testing. He shared freely even after the expense of a slew of soil tests. I see your point but i feel doc is legit and the results are often exceptional.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 30, 2015)

testiclees said:


> you dont bro. like the other folks here you dont know wtf youre talking about when it comes to high brix.
> 
> Sure there are many, many ways to grow great plants. No one is suggesting otherwise. However more opinions with Zero experience and even less research or understanding amounts to nothing more than ignorant bullshit. youre in good company with hyroot and stow.


Well, lets see some of your plants. Drop some info. I'm always down to learn.

Leave the butt hurt at the door though. I don't see why you have your undies so twisted over this.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 30, 2015)

From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?

Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.


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## Joedank (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?
> 
> Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.


this is the little i have gleaned . i was really into albrecht soil and high brix in 2009 is started with the"brix mix" from peaceful valley organics. 
potash has a complex role in the rizosphere but not a large one like we think . here is a quote that sums it up nicely.
FIRST STORY

International Ag Labs is a member of the Manure Analysis Proficiency Program (MAP) so naturally we test our fair share of manure. We also have a lot of customers who compost manure and so we also regularly test compost. It is interesting that when manure is tested for NPK the analysis, depending on the type of manure, averages somewhere around a 1-1-1. That is 1% Nitrogen, 1% phosphate, and 1% potash. When we test compost on average, we also find 1-1-1. This naturally leads me to an important question for which I have no answer. If manure starts out as a 1-1-1 analysis and it is composted somewhere between 50-60% of the volume of compost disappears during the composting process. If the resulting compost analyzes at 1-1-1 then where did all the P & K go?

It is easy to understand that a fair amount of the nitrogen can be lost to the atmosphere but what about the P and K? They don’t volatilize into the air and if the compost was not waterlogged and had some clay added at the beginning of the process very little would be lost through leaching. This is a puzzling question without a clear answer. Here is my speculation: The process of composting manure must radically change the intrinsic properties of compost such that an NPK (manure) analysis does not reflect the true P & K value of compost.

SECOND STORY

At the same time I was pondering this anomaly International Ag Labs had a dealer, Duane Headings, who was questioning the validity of a different lab’s potassium reading on their soil test. Consequently he began splitting soil samples and sending half to us. A lot of the soils he sampled were fields or gardens that had been receiving high levels of compost for several years. The other lab results were consistently coming back showing potassium on the high side of adequate but not excessive. Test results from International Ag Labs couldn’t be more striking: On the Morgan test the potassium levels were through the roof. In fact many samples showed more potassium available than calcium. This obvious discrepancy lead to a phone call from Duane and we began comparing notes.

*The Bottom Line Is This*
Compost, in spite of it’s seemingly low NPK analysis, is a very powerful supplier of potassium. We also learned that not all soil tests can pick up potassium equally—especially if it is being supplied through compost.

With this information in hand we began looking closely at gardens and market gardens that had high levels of compost applied over several years. We consistently found the same pattern: very high potassium, generally high levels of phosphorous and extremely low levels of available calcium. We then asked these same gardeners how their garden was doing. The answers were telling: A lot of bug pressure – It used to be much better – Really poor tasting food – Very low brix levels.

This research lead International Ag Labs to promulgate two new quality indicators based off our soil tests: the calcium-potassium ratio and the calcium-phosphorous ratio. Both should be around 18:1. I have found that if the calcium to potassium ratio is narrow, say at 3:1 or less it is a sure indicator that the garden will not be producing high brix foods until the ratio is widened. Gardens with narrow ratios can still produce abundantly but the food will not be nutrient-dense and the flavor will leave a lot to be desired. While Dr. Reams did not specifically give this ratio he did teach the principle and it is from his desired levels that these ratios are derived.

Interestingly, Dr. Albrecht was quite familiar with this concept and wrote about it. His insight can be found in volume 3 of the Albrecht Papers on page 20. I quote:

DR. ALBRECHT

The significant truth that brings soil fertility into control of the composition of our food, and therefore our health, comes out of the facts that in soils under construction by the limited climatic forces, or those with a wide calcium-potassium ratio, proteinaceous and mineral-rich crops and foods as well as carbonaceous ones are possible, and that in soils under destruction by excessive climate forces, or those with a narrow calcium-potassium ratio, protein production is not so common while production mainly of carbohydrates by crops is almost universal.

In the paragraphs following Dr. Albrecht goes on to show that soils with a richer supply of calcium also produce foods with greater minerals, more proteins, and ultimately much better health to the consumers.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?
> 
> Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.


Maybe I'm an idiot, but (vermi)compost and kelp are my two gardening staples, for both indoor/outdoor, cannabis, veggies, herbs, ornaments, etc.

I'm not well read up on high brix growing but what's the long-term benefits of it? What would carry a lower overhead and operating cost, running a high brix system or a notill?

To those who have experience or intimate knowledge on high brix growing, would it be fair to say that the goal is high yield? Or is there more to it?
Because if it's just about chasing numbers then I think it's only applicable to those who are after that bottom line. Maybe I'm missing the whole point, but if I'm not, it just seems to me another way to try and one-up mother nature and make a buck selling it in the process.


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## Scotch089 (Jul 30, 2015)

The big goal is more mineral content/vitamins= more flavor, better nutritional value. Even just blackstrap molasses is good for high brix gardening. I feel like rols and high brix is pretty damn close to the same page. Just one is a deeper level than the other. 

I am curious myself that- why not use kelp meal? (P?) And what the difference in upkeep would be vs rols? I assumed the same reamendments in rols would eventually up my brix level... in turn be "technically" brix gardening. 

I'm gray too..


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 30, 2015)

Joedank said:


> this is the little i have gleaned . i was really into albrecht soil and high brix in 2009 is started with the"brix mix" from peaceful valley organics.
> potash has a complex role in the rizosphere but not a large one like we think . here is a quote that sums it up nicely.
> FIRST STORY
> 
> ...


Interesting. So if I'm understanding this, (thermophilic?)compost could come with a high ratio of potassium, and not enough calcium, which would lead to low brix levels, and food that is not nutrient dense. Does this apply to vermicompost too? I would guess not to the same degree as worm "slime" is Ca rich.




Midwest Weedist said:


> Maybe I'm an idiot, but (vermi)compost and kelp are my two gardening staples, for both indoor/outdoor, cannabis, veggies, herbs, ornaments, etc.
> 
> I'm not well read up on high brix growing but what's the long-term benefits of it? What would carry a lower overhead and operating cost, running a high brix system or a notill?
> 
> ...


Brix levels are essentially a measurement of dissolved solids. High brix readings are indicative of nutrient rich produce, and in the case of marijuana I gather it's terpene/cannabinoid rich product.

I wouldn't call it a pointless goal, but I'm pretty certain it's not as complicated as some would have us believe to accomplish. Lot's of rock dusts, high levels of Ca, vermicompost instead of thermophilic compost, and innoculating your root zone with mycorrhizal fungi would be a good starting point. I'm still not completely sure why potassium is a bad thing, but I'm hoping testiclees can chime in on that...


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## testiclees (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?
> 
> Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.


im not an expert on the sciece. K is an issue because it affects the uptake of Ca. Overly high organic matter is a problem with CEC.

Kelp meal is used to a degree but depends on the soil situation. There is kelp meal in the amendment i use.

Those recommendations for minerals cited above are way high according to soil samples ive seen. The total amount of minerals added to about 4cu ft of base (promix) is less than 4 cups including cacium carbonate.

The dynamic between the foliar applications and the soil microbes is a critical part of the nutrition regimen. The soil microbes are in sync with the exudates through the minerals and sugars present the foliar products. When your soil biology is cranking and you apply the brix foliar you see a reaction with the quickness. I was really striking when i applied it to my cayenne plants. In about 2days they were throwing flowers all over the place. The blooms all became fruit and i got crazy peppers up in here. 

Also another idea is that huge yields dont equal great quality especially w produce but also w cannabis. Soils that are continuosly enriched with compost may deliver big tomatoes but not likely high nutrition tomatoes. Im not gonna get into that but i can say that high brix produce definitely is more flavorful and more desirable to chefs. I interact with chefs, farmers and farmers markets all the time in my business.
Higher minersls and higher sugars tastes amazingly different in anything from cauliflower to boysenberries.


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## st0wandgrow (Jul 30, 2015)

testiclees said:


> im not an expert on the sciece. K is an issue because it affects the uptake of Ca. Overly high organic matter is a problem with CEC.
> 
> Kelp meal is used to a degree but depends on the soil situation. There is kelp meal in the amendment i use.
> 
> ...



Interesting. Being that Potassium and Calcium are both Cations this makes sense. I don't purposely add a ton of K so I've never really considered the antagonism between the two.


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## Mohican (Jul 30, 2015)

Now I can see why adding CalMag makes everything so happy! I add eggshells to my compost and worm bin all of the time. My garden is starting to look like an eggshell graveyard!

This whole time I thought brix was a sugar measurement. Thanks for the education.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> That's a reasonable post, and I don't entirely disagree. Growing high brix plants is a worthwhile goal. I'm not debating the science with you.
> 
> I'm not irritated by his success. I simply look at it as someone trying to cash in. Like I said earlier, nothing wrong with that per se, but I'd prefer to see this info freely shared instead of having people line his pockets in order to get the results.


I'd be willing to bet whatevers in doc's KIT has already been dicussed and rec in one form or another in this thread lol, i went today and read all 500 damn pages of that 420 thread......dudes selling his kit, growing great gardens, but selling akit was my impression too. 


Super nice plants in vapors yard good on ya dude!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 30, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> The big goal is more mineral content/vitamins= more flavor, better nutritional value. Even just blackstrap molasses is good for high brix gardening. I feel like rols and high brix is pretty damn close to the same page. Just one is a deeper level than the other.
> 
> I am curious myself that- why not use kelp meal? (P?) And what the difference in upkeep would be vs rols? I assumed the same reamendments in rols would eventually up my brix level... in turn be "technically" brix gardening.
> 
> I'm gray too..


That's about what my understanding of it was, which is why I build my soil / garden like I do. I'm not completely ignorant of brix levels in soil / plants, it's just not something I've obsessively read up on out of curiosity, like with most of my gardening knowledge. 



st0wandgrow said:


> Interesting. So if I'm understanding this, (thermophilic?)compost could come with a high ratio of potassium, and not enough calcium, which would lead to low brix levels, and food that is not nutrient dense. Does this apply to vermicompost too? I would guess not to the same degree as worm "slime" is Ca rich.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If my understanding of it all is as sound as I think it is, then I've pretty much nailed this give or take a few things. I'd almost guarantee my soils npk values are way lower than what most people would suggest as I don't amend it as heavily as commonly suggested. I've always taken the concept of "less is more" and that diversity is a catalyst to success, to heart. I'm sure most would probably think my methods are beyond picky because there are no corners I cut, I won't even use ro water anymore. It's either pond water that I've dregged from the bottom (it comes out almost completely opaque because of the organic matter floating around) or spring water with ~1% of Ca. I won't add regular compost anymore, only vermicompost.
I guess my issue with high brick kits or anything that tries to capitalize on a natural process is that I'm, for the most part, already gardening with brix levels / etc in mind. Maybe it's different for me because I grew up in farming communities in the Midwest my entire life, I'm don't know, but most of what I teach my self or am taught about gardening / growing comes naturally and ridiculously easy. 
As much as I absolutely hate the (mostly) unintelligent, ignorant, dirty, dumpy farmers I've had to live around; I'm thankful in that it all rubbed off on me. It's in my blood, it's in my community, it's every where I look. Farming/gardening/growing just makes sense to me because it's been my experience my entire life. 



testiclees said:


> Also another idea is that huge yields dont equal great quality especially w produce but also w cannabis. Soils that are continuosly enriched with compost may deliver big tomatoes but not likely high nutrition tomatoes. Im not gonna get into that but i can say that high brix produce definitely is more flavorful and more desirable to chefs. I interact with chefs, farmers and farmers markets all the time in my business.
> Higher minersls and higher sugars tastes amazingly different in anything from cauliflower to boysenberries.


This completely backs up my entire concept to gardening, I've never chased quantity over quality. This is something that (Thankfully!!!) my grandparents instilled in me from a young age. So I guess while I'm against the idea of buying a kit to chase brix levels, I'm already in pursuit of it. Though probably not to the highest capacity that I could.


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## Pattahabi (Jul 30, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Hey everybody, going to try and giving living soil a trial run for a 3 run test to see how i do. I'm going to set up a garden bed on castors in my flower tent that can accommodate 2-3 small to medium plants in a single row (unless it is more beneficial to have them in their own separate containers but it would seem to me it's more natural and easier to do a whole bed). I just want to cut the plant, remove the large roots, fill in with compost, casting, rock dust mix and replant asap. Just had a couple questions...
> 
> What are the best sources for micronutrients when growing in living soil?? does the compost supply a lot of them? I'm talking the B, Cu, Mn, Mb, Cl, all that stuff. I've been looking at kelp meal but can't seem to find any info as to what micronutrients it provides (among the other things but i'm more insterested in the micros so my nutrient profile is complete). i'll be using oyster shell dust for Ca. How about magnesium... should i just water in epsom salts? I'm going to be including the rock dust trace minerals: azomite, and some form of basaltic (volcanic) rock dust, maybe even the glacial too; why the hell not?
> 
> ...


Kelp meal


coughphee.connoiseur said:


> Don any recommendations on reliable source for the soluble seaweed? Currently using Neptune's harvest seaweed fertilizer if that will do ? and for SRP I'm using calphos. Drop some knowledge on me if you don't mind, I'm open.


*How to use kelp meal*
Take 1/4 cup of kelp meal and cover that with about 1/2 cup of water and let it completely re-hydrate. Once that is done then pour off any excess water and use that for a kelp meal tea.
Take the hydrated kelp meal and puree it as much as possible to make a kelp meal paste. You’ll want to do this in small batches and store in the refrigerator in the coldest place which is usually in a corner.
When you need to apply a kelp meal tea than add about 2 tsp. to 1 gallon of water, shake until it’s completely dispersed and this is a safe concentration for spraying the leaves and you would probably want to double that amount to apply to the soil.
That’s it!
Coot


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## Joedank (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Interesting. So if I'm understanding this, (thermophilic?)compost could come with a high ratio of potassium, and not enough calcium, which would lead to low brix levels, and food that is not nutrient dense. Does this apply to vermicompost too? I would guess not to the same degree as worm "slime" is Ca rich.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


really stow i have no clue weather the high k is from the compost components itself, or the action of beaking it down . i use worm poop alot but i feed my worms my compost! lol .
if you find out how the high k thing in compost works LET ME KNOW please...lol


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## Pattahabi (Jul 30, 2015)

testiclees said:


> Youre all salty dude...doc himself praised all those the cannabis cup flowers he sampled. he talks about other great bud often.
> 
> real simply id say you are talking out your ass. Concerning yourself with "implications" and dismissive of accepted soil chemistry and micro biology you havent got an insight youre busy grinding your ax


I think you're in the wrong thread. This is the ROLS thread. We don't need anyone's stupid gimmicks. We can grow weed with crap in our backyard.

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Interesting. Being that Potassium and Calcium are both Cations this makes sense. I don't purposely add a ton of K so I've never really considered the antagonism between the two.


that's how I fucked up a grow of mine, yrs ago, you guys may read me warning others NOT to use BSM as a nutrient..
for this reason.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 30, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> From what I understand high brix soil is built with minerals in mind. High in Ca as well. Coots recipe calls for 4 cups of minerals/rock dust per cf, and upwards of 1 cup per cf of something high in calcium carbonate like oyster shell flower. People find that the soil gets better with time, so I suspect that due to the slow rate at which minerals are processed by soil microbes people are finding better results in successive generations. This is where the "no compost" thing makes me scratch my head. Wouldn't the microbes (and humus for other reasons) from compost be beneficial in this regard?
> 
> Also, why is potassium frowned upon? IMO kelp meal is one of the best amendments there is.


anyone that EVER advocates NOT using compost is straight up insane, or an idiot.
And you guys know me, I don't talk a lot of shit.
but compost may very well be the MOST important part of my soil.
But like we've seen, you can grow cannabis CONTRARY to many growing techniques..
I mean when you think of people growing in like clay pellets and chemicals...
it can be done... but organically?
a compost is ESSENTIAL.
In my not-so-humble opinion.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jul 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I would at least keep the soil bed whole so you don't have to worry about the soil web, water, and nutrients falling short. You can also plant cover crops to increase production, I love yarrow and chamomile(*clover attracts mites!).* I've experienced with sog that reaching around the back to deal with plants will become a big pain, but I hate hard work lol. It will become a high humidity microclimate after the plants fill in and any changes or moving from there is hell. I'm not sure if you decided on spacing but 7 inch spacing with a foot of pot height would make them happy as all get out. And a foot and a half height would be gardening without effort


important to mention that.
I got a girl scout cookie from a friend and it had mites, so I got mites again. anyways the legumes were TOAST... compared to the cannabis.
Like webbed vs barely speckled.
Important to note I think.
I've seen this only once, but it was visually more fucked than the cannabis plants I had, and the legumes were in the same container.
Granted I introduced the mites via the GSC, but still the mites liked the legumes more than the cannabis


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 30, 2015)

testiclees said:


> you dont bro. like the other folks here you dont know wtf youre talking about when it comes to high brix.
> 
> Sure there are many, many ways to grow great plants. No one is suggesting otherwise. However more opinions with Zero experience and even less research or understanding amounts to nothing more than ignorant bullshit. youre in good company on this thread of dry lab experts.


Hey hey hey I did my research before I decided not to switch. And holy crap man you are seriously butt hurt they figured out high brix without doc. I know that you guys love mychorhizae, I know you spray your leaves all the time to gives those plants every little mineral. I know you rely on rock phosphate, potassium, and calcium in those foliar sprays. You make up silly names for your nutrients, why I didn't buy, hate the hydronaming, just tell me whats in it. But really all it is, is the same stuff we use. oh and You add a little sugar to give the plant and whatever is on the leaf a kick. But remember to foliar spray! It really isn't that hard to understand.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 30, 2015)

Everyone if you want high brix put some gypsum and rock phosphate in a bottle and spray your pants off!


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## Joedank (Jul 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Hey hey hey I did my research before I decided not to switch. And holy crap man you are seriously butt hurt they figured out high brix without doc. I know that you guys love mychorhizae, I know you spray your leaves all the time to gives those plants every little mineral. I know you rely on rock phosphate, potassium, and calcium in those foliar sprays. You make up silly names for your nutrients, why I didn't buy, hate the hydronaming, just tell me whats in it. But really all it is, is the same stuff we use. oh and You add a little sugar to give the plant and whatever is on the leaf a kick. But remember to foliar spray! It really isn't that hard to understand.


mixing up some neem / ksil/ eggshell vinigar/ h2o2 tonight for the outdoor girls  love to foliar . i say compost is king for my veggies but i add ALOT of oyster shells so i hope that helps .... never seems like compost hurts... these plant must have WAY too much "K"


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 30, 2015)

Joedank said:


> mixing up some neem / ksil/ eggshell vinigar/ h2o2 tonight for the outdoor girls  love to foliar . i say compost is king for my veggies but i add ALOT of oyster shells so i hope that helps .... never seems like compost hurts... these plant must have WAY too much "K"


Ive never done the eggshell vinegar because it terrifies me to spray acetic acid on plants. Seriously, no bad effects from that? I use gypsum, calcium and sulfur and readily dissolves. But I do throw hard boiled egg shells all over the soil.


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## Joedank (Jul 30, 2015)

at a tbls per gallon its not alot of acetic . with ksil at 1ml per gallon it passes jar tests...
*http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/recipes/calphos/*
*CalPhos*
This is an awesome product you can make from ingredients found in your kitchen. It is a nutrient solution for plants just entering the flowering cycle. There is an overlapping activity of Phosporous and Potassium during flowering. In natural farming, we apply calphos before the flower initiation to support the eventual fruit. In simplistic terms, we use Phosphorous to address the root system, which will enable the plant to access better water and nutrients from the soil to support the critical changeover as manifested by flower initiation. We use Calcium to strengthen the plant in preparation for heavy flowers/fruits. Thus, natural farming emphasizes Phosphorus and Calcium during the changeover period from growing to flowering/fruiting, and this provides for that need.

****For an illustrated example of this recipe, check out the farm log here. The flog has all kinds of good stuff, sign up to get the updates via email!***
How to Make*


Collect a bunch of eggshells and wash to remove inside filaments. Remember, you can also use bones and other good sources of calcium like seashells, clams and oysters, etc. Likewise, if you only want calcium, even limestone can be used, or simple lime.
Pan fry the eggshells. Fry until some are brown/black, some white. The burnt shells are your Calcium source while the white are the Phosphorus source.
After roasting the eggshells, grind them up. You can do it manually, with a mortar and pestle, throw them in a blender or electric coffee grinder, etc.
Add them to a jar and add 5 parts vinegar by volume. For example, if you have 1 cup ground shells, add 5 cups vinegar.
The acid in the vinegar helps digest them. You will notice bubbling as this process converts the ingredients to liquid calcium phosphate.

Wait until tiny bubbles disappear
Seal the jar and ferment for 20 days.
Filter into another jar
Now you’ve made your own Calcium Phosphate

*How to Use*

*Mix 1tbsp per gallon*

Plants


spray on leaves during transition phase to flower, and when fruits are large and mature
Transition Phase: Induces flowering, eases nutrient demands of transition phase, strengthens flowers
Mature Fruit: Strengthens plant stems, leaves, fruits, helps fruit mature properly for optimum sweet flavor!

Animals:


Feed to animals during breeding time and during pregnancy. Helps breeding efficacy and litter success rates. Woohoo!
*Share this:*


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## testiclees (Jul 30, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I think you're in the wrong thread. This is the ROLS thread. We don't need anyone's stupid gimmicks. We can grow weed with crap in our backyard.
> 
> P-


bro its clear im not in the wrong thread.there is info sharing going on here. you want to shut it down with an asinine pronouncement. no

you get all of coots amendments in your back yard? No you dont. youre a hypocrite.
look up the meaning of gimmick before using it ignorantly. if you grasped whats been addressed here you would be aware that the efficacy of the product is not in question. Hence it isnt a gimmick.


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## testiclees (Jul 30, 2015)

@Joedank 

How do you measure and mix up the ksil?


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 30, 2015)

Joedank said:


> at a tbls per gallon its not alot of acetic . with ksil at 1ml per gallon it passes jar tests...
> *http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/recipes/calphos/*
> *CalPhos*
> This is an awesome product you can make from ingredients found in your kitchen. It is a nutrient solution for plants just entering the flowering cycle. There is an overlapping activity of Phosporous and Potassium during flowering. In natural farming, we apply calphos before the flower initiation to support the eventual fruit. In simplistic terms, we use Phosphorous to address the root system, which will enable the plant to access better water and nutrients from the soil to support the critical changeover as manifested by flower initiation. We use Calcium to strengthen the plant in preparation for heavy flowers/fruits. Thus, natural farming emphasizes Phosphorus and Calcium during the changeover period from growing to flowering/fruiting, and this provides for that need.
> ...


Can I ask why the burnt shells are calcium and the unburnt are phosphorus? Doesn't really make sense. I'll give it a shot. The acetic acid protonates the carbonate releasing the calcium and producing carbon dioxide if anyone wondered why it bubbles and all that.


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## 4ftRoots (Jul 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Can I ask why the burnt shells are calcium and the unburnt are phosphorus? Doesn't really make sense. I'll give it a shot. The acetic acid protonates the carbonate releasing the calcium and producing carbon dioxide if anyone wondered why it bubbles and all that.


However the fermentation is brilliant! Apperently acetate(acetic acid without the proton(hydrogen)) can decompose to methane and carbon dioxide gas. Have you ever had a jar explode from pressure?


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## Joedank (Jul 31, 2015)

testiclees said:


> @Joedank
> 
> How do you measure and mix up the ksil?


pure water 0ppm and 7 ph with 148 grams of agsil 16 to 1 liter water and a perfectly clean jar .
ksil must be added last to any concotion and tested in a jar to be sure precipitate does not occure . boron and calcium must NEVER be mixed as the precpitatae can hurt tissue..


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## Pattahabi (Jul 31, 2015)

testiclees said:


> bro its clear im not in the wrong thread.there is info sharing going on here. you want to shut it down with an asinine pronouncement. no
> 
> you get all of coots amendments in your back yard? No you dont. youre a hypocrite.
> look up the meaning of gimmick before using it ignorantly. if you grasped whats been addressed here you would be aware that the efficacy of the product is not in question. Hence it isnt a gimmick.


_GIMMICK: In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature._

Yup, that's exactly what I thought it meant. 

And I'm not your Bro kid. If I have to grow plants with what is in the backyard I can do it. I'm just getting ready to mix up some soil with old horse manure that had wigglers in it for my compost portion - right out of my friends back yard. The ROLS threads have been long known for not needing overpriced and over complicated crap in the name of growing good cannabis. You're about the ten millionth person that has tried to over complicate a simple procress. 

Let's see some of these earth shattering amazing high brix plants! If you don't use a refractometer you're not one of the cool kids!

What was the CEC of the medium Albrect was using?

P-


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## Joedank (Jul 31, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> _GIMMICK: In marketing language, a gimmick is a unique or quirky special feature that makes something "stand out" from its contemporaries. However, the special feature is typically thought to be of little relevance or use. Thus, a gimmick is a special feature for the sake of having a special feature._
> 
> Yup, that's exactly what I thought it meant.
> 
> ...


right when i saw that i "need" promix for high brix in some systems i was like uh oh .... i see this heading to plastic bottles and tiny baggies for big$$$$. i prefer to get ammendments i can use in my food to like DE , kelp , nettle , comfrey....


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## testiclees (Jul 31, 2015)

Joedank said:


> pure water 0ppm and 7 ph with 148 grams of agsil 16 to 1 liter water and a perfectly clean jar .
> ksil must be added last to any concotion and tested in a jar to be sure precipitate does not occure . boron and calcium must NEVER be mixed as the precpitatae can hurt tissue..


thanks man. that's used as a base solution ? then how do you dilute for application.

Ive done the math on agsil 16h in the past. I think it comes out to 100ppm as the recommended direct aplication to soil dilution while 1000ppm is the dosage for foliar/pest application. 

I. the direct to soil exame it comes out to .06 gm per gal.

This is from a scientist at PQ where agsil is manufactured:

Potassium silicate has been tested at much higher application rates than what was recommended here and has been found to be safe to plants. However, it should not be applied to open blooms of some ornamental plants. (Geranium, Marigold, Pansy, and Petunia) We have a potassium silicate product that is an EPA approved biopesticide where the higher application rates are utilized for disease control. The AgSilliterature was developed about 8 years ago. PQ's focus at that time was testing the efficacy of the biopesticide via foliar application. It is my guess that the 1000 ppm SiO2 foliar application for AgSil was derived from that efficacy data. Recent academic research is more in line with 100 ppm and is focused on plant benefits other than disease control. I believe there is room to fine tune the usage rates. 
Stephanie Rose
PQ Corporation


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## testiclees (Jul 31, 2015)

Joedank said:


> right when i saw that i "need" promix for high brix in some systems i was like uh oh .... i see this heading to plastic bottles and tiny baggies for big$$$$. i prefer to get ammendments i can use in my food to like DE , kelp , nettle , comfrey....


You dont need promix. Farmers obviously use field soil.You prefer "amendments you use in your food" lol like agsil? Look i appreciate the focus on local amendments and microbiology but the sanctimonious tone in some of the posts betrays naivete and lack of basic gardening knowledge.

Im not trying to evangelize over here im simply pointing out that IAG. Adavanced eco ag and others have a sound program that grows high quality produce.Its not a question or debateable it is established. It is well established with cannabis as well.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jul 31, 2015)

One of my bell peppers that I started inside around March, freaking massive..
 Stevia!


Some peppers, cheyenne I believe.
  
My cover crops are blooming! My comfrey finally took off as well.

All kelp, compost, and pond water grown!


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## ShLUbY (Jul 31, 2015)

Question: what do you do when people constantly discourage the growing of herb in soil (mainly because of their poor skills in doing so i presume...). I'm trying to figure out still how to just laugh at them and walk away.


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## ShLUbY (Jul 31, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> View attachment 3470434 One of my bell peppers that I started inside around March, freaking massive..
> View attachment 3470429 Stevia!
> 
> View attachment 3470430
> ...



dude your garden is beautiful! Nice work. didnt even know that pepper was a pepper till i read the caption


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## Joedank (Jul 31, 2015)

i prefer a point by point argument to lay plain the facts .


ShLUbY said:


> Question: what do you do when people constantly discourage the growing of herb in soil (mainly because of their poor skills in doing so i presume...). I'm trying to figure out still how to just laugh at them and walk away.


most folks think herb in soil is silly cuz they only know bottles for cannabis . they figure why try soil if you use bottles anyway . is'nt inert media the same if the bottles are the same?
i like when folks start to open their eyes to microbes and fungi helping the roots access minerals thus providing more complex aromas and oils .... its all about TASTE for me if hydro weed tasted better i would grow it that way (and have)


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## Joedank (Jul 31, 2015)

testiclees said:


> You dont need promix. Farmers obviously use field soil.You prefer "amendments you use in your food" lol like agsil? Look i appreciate the focus on local amendments and microbiology but the sanctimonious tone in some of the posts betrays naivete and lack of basic gardening knowledge.
> 
> Im not trying to evangelize over here im simply pointing out that IAG. Adavanced eco ag and others have a sound program that grows high quality produce.Its not a question or debateable it is established. It is well established with cannabis as well.


i disagree that high brix is proven and ment for gardening smokeable products . too many complex minerals in my smoke is not for me (trillium , colbalt , nickle, ect ) so using to many of those microbes for mineral cycleing is not for my herbs thank you . there are many ways to skin a cat. or have healthy tissue in native soil ...
we dont "eat" the cannabis fruit per say so brix was left in the dust for me . sap is better full tissue analyisis best.
massageing the "krebs cycle" for volitile oils on the par of growing a plant for resins and oils is what i follow (tom hills grow big plants outdoor thread has lots of good info on this . krebs needs citric acid and a carbon molecule (i use oat flour )....


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## Darth Vapour (Jul 31, 2015)

You know with everyone mentioning adding this or that into there soil telling you guys simplest soil i figured i try this year is what we normally do in our garden is only exception is i went 40 percent new screened top soil and 40 percent compost from our compost bin which consists of table veggie scraps coffee grounds , egg shells everthing green onion peels carrots potato peels everything ,, Also i have added used fats ..
Bacon roast etc FATS ..
Now before everyone gets in a up roar, I will be straight up coming from a farming background i will listen to my Father well before some so called soil biologist being he is 86 and has been farming all his life ..
there is no substitute for actual hands on knowledge .. when it comes to living on the land trust me 
Fats do decompose all living carbon based things decompose and different speeds.. Fats take about 5 - 8 days to start to decompose and it actually speeds up wants its started .. believe it or not Fats convert to sugars and carbs an proteins amino acids etc so with that said we add some fats into our compost bin around a liter per cubic yard 
with that said all we do is in fall we make culverts and place compost ,, let it sit open over winter spring we roll it or mix it in also adding more and in 50 plus years no soil tests have been done and lt me tell you only rain water things grow and grow niice 
this is true LOS not by adding beanies teas or any other ingredient 

My out door is same soil compost only thing i added was fresh grass clippings and worms and cardboard into soil i am shocked how healthy plants are in flower and its performance for only water feed


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## Mohican (Jul 31, 2015)

They just tell you not to add those things because it attracts pests.

I know a farmer who composted his citrus and it was full of worms. Nature will tell you what it likes and dislikes, and as long as you pay attention you will be a winner in the garden.


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 1, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I know a farmer who composted his citrus and it was full of worms. Nature will tell you what it likes and dislikes, and as long as you pay attention you will be a winner in the garden.


I compost my citrus peels, I eat a shit ton of oranges. I just make sure that they sit in the sun for a few days after I tear them up, worms eat them after about two weeks in my experience. Only organic stuff though.



ShLUbY said:


> dude your garden is beautiful! Nice work. didnt even know that pepper was a pepper till i read the caption


Thank you! Everyone is surprised at how big it is, it's put out pounds of peppers already this year.


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## testiclees (Aug 1, 2015)

testiclees said:


> thanks man. is that used as a base solution or you use that straight?





Joedank said:


> i disagree that high brix is proven and ment for gardening smokeable products . too many complex minerapplls in my smoke is not for me (trillium , colbalt , nickle, ect ) so using to many of those microbes for mineral cycleing is not for my herbs thank you . there are many ways to skin a cat. or have healthy tissue in native soil ...
> we dont "eat" the cannabis fruit per say so brix was left in the dust for me . sap is better full tissue analyisis best.
> massageing the "krebs cycle" for volitile oils on the par of growing a plant for resins and oils is what i follow (tom hills grow big plants outdoor thread has lots of good info on this . krebs needs citric acid and a carbon molecule (i use oat flour )....



Good point on the (high brix) "proven for cannabis". The idea is that the plant is naturally more expressive of its genetics because of the vibrant high brix health.I dont know if thats been demonstrated. I do know that it is demonstrated witb food and with pasture grass and wine grapes. Seems like it would be possible to test out the effects with analytic tools.. Ill.poke around and see if anyone has heard of an assay w high brix flowers.

I agree on the sap or tissue analysis.Those are far more useful then a refractometer reading.

Im not too sure about the mineral action youre describing. The thinking is that the microbes process and metabolize in response to the signals recieved via root exudates. I dont think that makes it more likely that they will process heavy metals or anything toxic. I dont think that makes sense at all. The robust biology matches the robust rhizosphere. If anything it might make available the exact substances that promote the fullest expression of the strains potential. High brix farmers most definitely hold that to be fact.

Many ways to skin a cat indeed!

Ill look at Tom Hills info thanks.


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## Joedank (Aug 1, 2015)

look up the relaton between trillum, kale , and lethargy . it lead me down a nutrient uptake rabbit hole that i am still recovering from . and soured me on azomite....lol tom hill is awsome and give a albrecht ratio soil on the first page of his grow big plants outdoors soil and how to reammend it . 


testiclees said:


> Good point on the (high brix) "proven for cannabis". The idea is that the plant is naturally more expressive of its genetics because of the vibrant high brix health.I dont know if thats been demonstrated. I do know that it is demonstrated witb food and with pasture grass and wine grapes. Seems like it would be possible to test out the effects with analytic tools.. Ill.poke around and see if anyone has heard of an assay w high brix flowers.
> 
> I agree on the sap or tissue analysis.Those are far more useful then a refractometer reading.
> 
> ...


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## Mohican (Aug 1, 2015)

The is a woman mathematician who deduced the chemical reaction that causes roundup to produce gluten allergies.

Grow your own everything!

When I was on Maui my digestion completely recovered. It is amazing what non-GMO food can do for you.


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## cannakis (Aug 1, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> View attachment 3470434 One of my bell peppers that I started inside around March, freaking massive..
> View attachment 3470429 Stevia!
> 
> View attachment 3470430
> ...


Man my garden was lookin good but the damn deer came by--the very night I was thinking about staying out there and hunting but didn't--and destroyed Every single thing, 30 pepper plants 30 tomato plants, 12 each of watermelon, pumpkin, squash, muskmelon all heirlooms. All gone in a night pretty much! I need an Electric fence.! I did get some


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## unwine99 (Aug 2, 2015)

Hey does anyone know if I'd run into any problems using hydroton for part of my aeration? I have an ass-ton of that stuff sitting around from my hydro days.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 2, 2015)

unwine99 said:


> Hey does anyone know if I'd run into any problems using hydroton for part of my aeration? I have an ass-ton of that stuff sitting around from my hydro days.


It would work fine. Just make sure to rinse it well in case there's any salt buildup on it from your hydro nutrients.


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## unwine99 (Aug 2, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> It would work fine. Just make sure to rinse it well in case there's any salt buildup on it from your hydro nutrients.


Sounds good, thanks St0w.


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 3, 2015)

Anyone ever seen or know why a clover would display this? Only thing I can think of is maybe too heavy with the kelp.. There's only a few of them that are doing it in my tomato / tomatillo bed.
 

In other news.. this little bastard found his way into my tent, which is on the 3rd floor of my building. Talk about dedicated


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 3, 2015)

http://customers.hbci.com/~wenonah/min-def/clover.htm

Well this is interesting, according to this website it could be a boron deficiency.


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 3, 2015)

"Under *acid soil conditions*, boron is more water-soluble and can therefore be leached below the root-zones of plants by *rainfall* or irrigations. It has also been shown that symptoms of boron deficiency are associated with high soil pH values (*alkaline conditions)"
*
If my thinking is correct, all of the rain my area has gotten could very well have leached out the boron from the root zone. Or at least enough that my clover is unhappy. This could explain why my grandparents raspberries and blueberries are struggling.


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## Mohican (Aug 3, 2015)

I was using Advanced Nutrients Jungle Juice Micro to keep my micro needs met:









Then I replaced this with Grow More Seaweed Extract liquid to get the micronutrients organically.

*
Grow More Seaweed Extract offers a all natural organic non-toxic product that leaves no residue on crops. May be applied anytime during the growing season through harvest.*

Growers can expect a variety of benefits from using Grow More Seaweed Extract. Research and field trials have demonstrated benefits such as improved root development, more vigorous growth, increased resistance to environmental stress and reduced frost damage.

Our Grow More Seaweed Extract contains naturally balanced chelated trace elements such as boron, molybdenum, copper, zinc, manganese, iron, and cobalt. The natural chelating agents are alginic acid and mannitol.


Seaweed Extract contains low concentration of naturally occuring plant growth factor. As a foliar spray, use 1 teaspoon (5 grams) per gallon of water or use 11 ozs. (310 grams) in 50 to 100 gallons (189-380 liters of water per 4,050 sq. meters) of water per acre. Apply foliar spray as fine-misting spray to wet foliage. A biodegradable sticker/spreader like Grow More spray enhancer can be used to maximize dispersal and adherence.

Do not apply in the heat of the say or in dty windy conditions. Early morning or late evening applications are best. Best results will be achieved by making more frequent applications every 2 to 3 weeks rather than increasing the concentration of the spray solution.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 3, 2015)

Ok all. I'm working on reading this entire thread... i'm 10% there haha. i've learned a shit ton in the first 30 pages already. I'm just looking for a little feedback of what i'm trying to put together in my head for when i get started on ROLS pots...

I'm thinking of doing 2 15gal to start out with so i can test my abilities before going full scale for my whole tent, and also will use the rest of the supplies i have for my current grow methods which is minimally bottle fed soil (have been adding amendments recently) but not recycled of course.
- 1 of the 15 gal i want to use coco for the base mix and the other 15 gal i want to use peat and just see a side by side for which one i get to perform better over a 3 harvest test run. I'm sure others wouldn't mind seeing some results from this either if it hasn't been posted yet.

- I think i'll be sticking with 1 mmj plant per container... trying to keep them in the total height (plant + container) below 50" as that's what my ceiling space will allow with proper hood height (600 watt hps per 4 plants)

- i'm thinking about using the pumice of various sizes because i think i read that pumice is like 4x cheaper than pearlite, can someone confirm this? Plus i also heard that pearlite will break down into basically sand fairly quickly.

- soil mix is going to be 30% compost, 30% pumice, 30% coco or peat, 10% biochar (home made or cowboy brand i'll crush myself since i have it already). from what i read topdressing 2" of worm castings at planting in the bed is also recommended. as well as a cover crop before planting in.

- Looking at some soil amendments from a MI based company (i live in MI so i like keeping $ local). The company is called Organically Done. I was wondering if any of you have the time to check out the website if you could give me an opinion on if they seem ligit to you, as they APPEAR to me haha... trying to not be naive!
- the amendments i'm currently looking at are the Greensand, Kelp Meal, Bone Char, Oyster Shell Flour, and
Alfalfa Meal.
- I also have the Liquid Humic and Fulvic from them...
- Other soil ammendments will include Azomite and Other rock dusts (1-2 lbs per cubic foot i think i read??)

- I'm going to be purchasing some aloe plants to grow so i can have that resource on hand for drenchs/foliars (and for my own internal and external use!). I pretty much always have coconut or coconut water at the house cause i'm hooked on it haha.

- does anyone use the probiotic EM-1?? I've heard some good things

- not that i ever have pests but with the living soil i think IPMs are going to become a regular... do you continue IPMs after week 3 of flower?? just don't really like spraying anything on those buds  i mean i'm sure you don't spray to the point of seriously heavy drip...

Other things i'm still learning about are SST's and the living buggies (worms and other beneficials), how to make effective compost teas, and gonna be looking into a drip system so i don't have to hand water anymore (pain in the back!). but i'll try and find some more info before i start asking about them...

thanks to all and i'm loving this thread. this is the future.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 4, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Ok all. I'm working on reading this entire thread... i'm 10% there haha. i've learned a shit ton in the first 30 pages already. I'm just looking for a little feedback of what i'm trying to put together in my head for when i get started on ROLS pots...
> 
> I'm thinking of doing 2 15gal to start out with so i can test my abilities before going full scale for my whole tent, and also will use the rest of the supplies i have for my current grow methods which is minimally bottle fed soil (have been adding amendments recently) but not recycled of course.
> - 1 of the 15 gal i want to use coco for the base mix and the other 15 gal i want to use peat and just see a side by side for which one i get to perform better over a 3 harvest test run. I'm sure others wouldn't mind seeing some results from this either if it hasn't been posted yet.
> ...


I live in MI too. I have used various Organically Done products with good results.

If you live anywhere near the Detroit Metro area there is a feed shop in Rochester called "Uncle Luke's" that carries most everything you will need. The owners are hip to the medical marijuana scene so don't be afraid to ask them to order specific items that they may not currently have in stock. Best of luck...


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## ShLUbY (Aug 4, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I live in MI too. I have used various Organically Done products with good results.
> 
> If you live anywhere near the Detroit Metro area there is a feed shop in Rochester called "Uncle Luke's" that carries most everything you will need. The owners are hip to the medical marijuana scene so don't be afraid to ask them to order specific items that they may not currently have in stock. Best of luck...


yeah i have a local shop here by me but i'm not terribly far from Detroit Metro. Glad you're liking their products, i'm getting quite the collection of them now haha.


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## BobBitchen (Aug 4, 2015)

just finished reading all 301 pages...fuq me there's a lot of information here...  
gonna go back and re-read the first 100 or so pages again.
tnx to all of ya for the great info


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 4, 2015)

hyroot said:


> you should probably get a speed controller for that fan. If it cools too much. Below operating temp. It can cut down on spectral output by 10%-20% and the glass already cuts off 15% spectral output.


I was reading back through the thread and bumped into this again. It had never really dawned on me that airflow could actually alter the spectral output. It makes me wonder how much "light" I'm wasting, considering I run a cooltube with a 530cfm fan pulling air across it.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 6, 2015)

is the main source of Si coming from the rock dusts for ROLS or is there a tea or some amendment that is the preferred method of delivery. I'm working on reading this whole thread but can only take in so much info so often haha. Can't remember if i've come across this yet or not...


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## Scotch089 (Aug 6, 2015)

Agsil for silica but others debate there is already enough in soil/or don't see any difference


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## ShLUbY (Aug 6, 2015)

one more thing, when applying foliars... is it a common practice to do them in-between needed waters. So say i water today and i wait until tomorrow night before lights out to foliar... and then water a day or two after foliar (if necessary of course)??


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## Mohican (Aug 6, 2015)

My lights were hot and I would foliar a fine mist two or three times a day. They loved it and were dry a half hour later.


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## Joedank (Aug 6, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> is the main source of Si coming from the rock dusts for ROLS or is there a tea or some amendment that is the preferred method of delivery. I'm working on reading this whole thread but can only take in so much info so often haha. Can't remember if i've come across this yet or not...


basalt rock dust and D.E. are abundunt with Si...


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## Mohican (Aug 6, 2015)

Teas made with dandelions are high in available Si among other benificials.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 9, 2015)

Cool thanks. 

Any ROLS people using strictly LED lights? I'm considering switching just for the heat factor alone, but i'm really attatched to my two 600 HPS. I have a 12,000 BTU floor AC unit that does 500cuft, 60pint dehuey, and co2 tank and reg. I'm leaning towards a sealed room to have better control of the VPD. I wouldn't run the CO2 hot. just 400-500 band (i know, 500 is above atmospheric co2 but shouldn't be potent i wouldn't think). Gotta get a controller first though. Have everything else! 

just wondering if anyone has switched over from 600 to HPS and has been pleased with the results... and how much i should be looking to spend on a decent lamp. seems like ~400$ is the min...


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## Scotch089 (Aug 9, 2015)

Yea several do. 

@foreverflyhi @hyroot @PSUAGRO. @SupraSPL


----------



## DonPetro (Aug 9, 2015)

@DonTesla 


ShLUbY said:


> Cool thanks.
> 
> Any ROLS people using strictly LED lights? I'm considering switching just for the heat factor alone, but i'm really attatched to my two 600 HPS. I have a 12,000 BTU floor AC unit that does 500cuft, 60pint dehuey, and co2 tank and reg. I'm leaning towards a sealed room to have better control of the VPD. I wouldn't run the CO2 hot. just 400-500 band (i know, 500 is above atmospheric co2 but shouldn't be potent i wouldn't think). Gotta get a controller first though. Have everything else!
> 
> just wondering if anyone has switched over from 600 to HPS and has been pleased with the results... and how much i should be looking to spend on a decent lamp. seems like ~400$ is the min...


----------



## SupraSPL (Aug 10, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Cool thanks.
> 
> Any ROLS people using strictly LED lights? I'm considering switching just for the heat factor alone, but i'm really attatched to my two 600 HPS. I have a 12,000 BTU floor AC unit that does 500cuft, 60pint dehuey, and co2 tank and reg. I'm leaning towards a sealed room to have better control of the VPD. I wouldn't run the CO2 hot. just 400-500 band (i know, 500 is above atmospheric co2 but shouldn't be potent i wouldn't think). Gotta get a controller first though. Have everything else!
> 
> just wondering if anyone has switched over from 600 to HPS and has been pleased with the results... and how much i should be looking to spend on a decent lamp. seems like ~400$ is the min...


If you aim for 600W of COB to replace 1200W HPS you should increase your yield. Example build:
(12) CXB3590 3500K CD 36v @ 1.4A ($600)
(3) Mean Well HLG-185H-C1400 drivers ($200)
(6) 5.88"X24" heatsinks ($275)
588W dissipation @ 56.34% = 331 PAR W - 10% lens/reflector/wall losses = 298 PAR W in canopy and *290W heat* (257 in heatsink)

Assuming brand new bulb and reflector with cooled hoods, the 1200W HPS @ 36% = 432 PAR W - 20% reflector losses - 10% glass losses -5% wall/scatter = 296 PAR W in canopy and *904W heat
*
So they both have the same PAR W in the canopy but the COBs can be setup for better uniformity and 80 CRi rather than the 20 CRi of HPS. One third the heat to do the same job that is insane.

As far as how that relates to ROLS, I believe that ROLS improves cannabinoid and terpene characteristics of any variety and I also believe that LEDs improve cannabinoid and terp quality on top of that due to increase blue and decreased bud temperature, a great combo


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## ShLUbY (Aug 10, 2015)

SupraSPL said:


> If you aim for 600W of COB to replace 1200W HPS you should increase your yield. Example build:
> (12) CXB3590 3500K CD 36v @ 1.4A ($600)
> (3) Mean Well HLG-185H-C1400 drivers ($200)
> (6) 5.88"X24" heatsinks ($275)
> ...



yeah I feel the 904W heat. that's mainly why i want to change lighting, and I definitely have been noticing how high my leaf/bud temps are in the sweet spot of my HPS (I think you may have explained why the nugs just below the cola are always my favorite...) I'm currently not in ROLS right now, but i'm educating myself to get there before the winter comes. I really appreciate you taking the time to reply. Beautiful lookin nugs, look at the brown hairs on that strain! Never see them get that dark  definitely have the frost going on that's for sure!


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## ShLUbY (Aug 10, 2015)

lol also just noticed huge type in the bottom of my original lighting question... "switched over from 600 to HPS" should have read 600 HPS to LED! LOL good medication... i think so


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## ShLUbY (Aug 10, 2015)

information overload. I decided I'm going to stop at page 100, and go back through and reread now that I am more familiar with this. I have started a word pad that I will keep highly organized notes as a guide to ROLS. I'm sure upon completion of this thread i'll be ready to cook some soil. I'm finding a lot of good info so far and i've learned already the higher the quality of ingredient, the less amount of total ingredients one needs to amend soil with. After all, we're not making super soil here!!


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## Joedank (Aug 10, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> information overload. I decided I'm going to stop at page 100, and go back through and reread now that I am more familiar with this. I have started a word pad that I will keep highly organized notes as a guide to ROLS. I'm sure upon completion of this thread i'll be ready to cook some soil. I'm finding a lot of good info so far and i've learned already the higher the quality of ingredient, the less amount of total ingredients one needs to amend soil with. After all, we're not making super soil here!!


i agree here . less is more . topdressing is king at my house .... the tendency to make colloidal "soup" of soilish stuff is almost overwhelming till you read Albrecht's work...


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## ShLUbY (Aug 10, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i agree here . less is more . topdressing is king at my house .... the tendency to make colloidal "soup" of soilish stuff is almost overwhelming till you read Albrecht's work...


but it's the natural human instinct.... more more more lol. It's a bitch to fight your own instincts. take a step back. 

Question... I read about topdressing with a good layer of EWC when transplanting into ROLS. Why would one not topdress with the exact soil mixture that is already in the pot? just seems like that's the way it occurs in nature... same layers year after year (within succession stages of the land of course).


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## Joedank (Aug 10, 2015)

well i disagree with the whole layer of worm . i am using a mix of my own mostly alfalfa and comfrey greenchop with fish bone meal , basalt rock dust (for fungal hyphe) , and gypsum i used the worm in teas and top dress it spareingly as the worms have rendered it uneatable by them and it closes pores with all its humis. i imagine it is quite unnatural but plants love it and it is pocket book friendly . the brix stay high with foliars of soy bean"N" and calcium....
i am testing a living mulch of crimson clover and pulled some up it had nitro fixed nodules after only one month kinda cool 
your question is a good one . crown rot is my main concern with too much "soil" on top of good roots and crowns . but if your not growing trees its would be fine to keep the nutrients cycleing ..
FWIW i am using a free bag of the "build a flower" topdress kit from BAS . its kicking ass . seems about 1/3 EWC so about as much as i would use in my own life . really dissapears fast from the top too i think its the comfrey..everything loves that stuff including me...


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## ShLUbY (Aug 11, 2015)

Joedank said:


> well i disagree with the whole layer of worm . i am using a mix of my own mostly alfalfa and comfrey greenchop with fish bone meal , basalt rock dust (for fungal hyphe) , and gypsum i used the worm in teas and top dress it spareingly as the worms have rendered it uneatable by them and it closes pores with all its humis. i imagine it is quite unnatural but plants love it and it is pocket book friendly . the brix stay high with foliars of soy bean"N" and calcium....
> i am testing a living mulch of crimson clover and pulled some up it had nitro fixed nodules after only one month kinda cool
> your question is a good one . crown rot is my main concern with too much "soil" on top of good roots and crowns . but if your not growing trees its would be fine to keep the nutrients cycleing ..
> FWIW i am using a free bag of the "build a flower" topdress kit from BAS . its kicking ass . seems about 1/3 EWC so about as much as i would use in my own life . really dissapears fast from the top too i think its the comfrey..everything loves that stuff including me...



lol what does one consider a "tree"? with the pot included I can't go taller than ~4.5-5ft (bushed out of course). Im going to be pushing the height limits constantly as I like to keep the yield as high as possible (no pun intended). If I can continue to do 6-8 per plant i'll be a happy guy! i've gotten a taste for what these 600 watters can do and light for light i very often out produce my friends that use 1000w (always thought they were EXTREMELY unnecessary as the sun doesn't even hit the earth surface @ 1000w/cu. m.)

so are you saying you have a base recipe soil for the bulk of it (what's in the planter), and when you harvest and replant into ROLS your mulch is basically a mix of botanicals, rock dust, fishbone meal instead of just more base soil mix?


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## Joedank (Aug 11, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> lol what does one consider a "tree"? with the pot included I can't go taller than ~4.5-5ft (bushed out of course). Im going to be pushing the height limits constantly as I like to keep the yield as high as possible (no pun intended). If I can continue to do 6-8 per plant i'll be a happy guy! i've gotten a taste for what these 600 watters can do and light for light i very often out produce my friends that use 1000w (always thought they were EXTREMELY unnecessary as the sun doesn't even hit the earth surface @ 1000w/cu. m.)
> 
> so are you saying you have a base recipe soil for the bulk of it (what's in the planter), and when you harvest and replant into ROLS your mulch is basically a mix of botanicals, rock dust, fishbone meal instead of just more base soil mix?


tree for me is 5 + feet talll and wide . as they age roots can become more suceptable to rot .IME.

YES i top dress all those things while the last plant was growing . so the next plant gets chelated nutes sort of...lol
then mix em in and replant ...


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## AllDayToker (Aug 11, 2015)

Hey guys, long time no see.

So I've been using this Jobe's Proven Winners Plant Food for a while now. I top dress when they start popping pistils and I get great results. As of lately it seems to be slowly dwendling off the market, and struggling to find it now.

I'm wondering if you guys could help me make something up that is similar. It says it has bacteria, mycorrhizal, fungi, and Archaea for the microorganisms. All I do for microbes is a simple worm castings tea. I also have some rooters myco that I use usually just during a transplant.

Any ideas?


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 11, 2015)

"In recent years, researchers have conducted several controlled studies to compare organic and conventional foods with respect to

nutritionalcomposition(Table2).Somestudieshaveconcludedthat organic production methods lead to increases in nutrients, partic- ularly organic acids and polyphenolic compounds, many of which are considered to have potential human health benefits as antiox- idants. However, other studies did not demonstrate differences in nutrients between organic and conventional production methods.

Two major hypotheses explaining the possible increases in or- ganic acids and polyphenolics in organic versus conventional foods have been proposed. One hypothesis considers the impacts of differ- ent fertilization practices on plant metabolism. In conventional agri- culture, synthetic fertilizers frequently make nitrogen more avail- able for the plants than do the organic fertilizers and may accelerate plant growth and development. Therefore, plant resources are allo- cated for growth purposes, resulting in a decrease in the production of plant secondary metabolites (compounds not essential to the life of the plant) such as organic acids, polyphenolics, chlorophyll, and amino acids.

The second hypothesis considers the responses of plants to stressful environments such as attacks from insects, weeds, and plant pathogens. It has been argued that organic production methods—which are limited in the use of insecticides, herbicides, and fungicides to control plant pests—may put greater stresses on plants and may require plants to devote greater resources toward the synthesis of their own chemical defense mechanisms. Increases in antioxidants such as plant polyphenolics have been attributed to their production in plant defense (Asami and others 2003), al- though the same mechanisms may result in the elevations of other plant secondary metabolites that may be of toxicological rather than nutritional significance."
http://ecochildsplay.com/2012/03/15/organic-vs-conventional-is-the-proof-is-in-the-nutrition/
Interesting stuff!


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## ShLUbY (Aug 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> "In recent years, researchers have conducted several controlled studies to compare organic and conventional foods with respect to
> 
> nutritionalcomposition(Table2).Somestudieshaveconcludedthat organic production methods lead to increases in nutrients, partic- ularly organic acids and polyphenolic compounds, many of which are considered to have potential human health benefits as antiox- idants. However, other studies did not demonstrate differences in nutrients between organic and conventional production methods.
> 
> ...


the second hypothesis seems very spot on to me but heck, we'll let them figure it out 

Sorry this is outta nowhere but just allowing the cannabis to let me think... I remember back to a post (not sure if it was this thread or some other one) but I recall someone adding some animal fats to their compost. not much at all, from what I remember. But I recall them talking about carbohydrates in the compost due to the fats being broken down (into glycerol and fatty acids which then break further into carbs and other shit i think)...

1) has anyone tried adding coconut (i was eating a coconut at this time) or any other seed oil to their compost for this purpose....

2) I literally had this brainstorm while i was typing this post... Now as I am taught, the plant produces it's own carbohydrate so i don't see what the benefit of adding carbs to the soil (please tell me if i am wrong)... but what about the almighty fungi??? Since they rely on the plant to supply them with carbohydrate, would they colonize faster with carbohydrate from fat being broken down in the compost?


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 11, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> the second hypothesis seems very spot on to me but heck, we'll let them figure it out
> 
> Sorry this is outta nowhere but just allowing the cannabis to let me think... I remember back to a post (not sure if it was this thread or some other one) but I recall someone adding some animal fats to their compost. not much at all, from what I remember. But I recall them talking about carbohydrates in the compost due to the fats being broken down (into glycerol and fatty acids which then break further into carbs and other shit i think)...
> 
> ...


I just tossed some coconut shells from young coconuts in a compost pile yesterday, time will tell how well they break down.
I remember who you referencing, but can't remember their username for the life of me. That specific posting was like 10 pages back or so I believe.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 11, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I just tossed some coconut shells from young coconuts in a compost pile yesterday, time will tell how well they break down.
> I remember who you referencing, but can't remember their username for the life of me. That specific posting was like 10 pages back or so I believe.


im talkin oil here though, not carbon (shells). those shells are gonna take forever. i decided today that i'm going to use my half shells as seed starter pots lol. they should work


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 12, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> the second hypothesis seems very spot on to me but heck, we'll let them figure it out
> 
> Sorry this is outta nowhere but just allowing the cannabis to let me think... I remember back to a post (not sure if it was this thread or some other one) but I recall someone adding some animal fats to their compost. not much at all, from what I remember. But I recall them talking about carbohydrates in the compost due to the fats being broken down (into glycerol and fatty acids which then break further into carbs and other shit i think)...
> 
> ...


try fish oils. Fungus goes crazy for fish


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## ShLUbY (Aug 12, 2015)

"hey mom, do you have an extra aloe plant i can have??" This is what she brings me! lol. It's a little messy IMO, and hasn't been drinking much water at all. I would think i should divide a bunch of it up into separate pots or one no-till bed with spacing between each plant? Come on you experienced aloe growers... i don't wanna be buying powder, i just want to harvest my own, and grow these fillets as big as i can with this variety. I plan on consuming some myself! also, any tips on preparation for me or my plants? i've just been going with the slice in half and scrape with one smooth knife stroke to get the flesh out. works pretty good and my plants are loving it so far.


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## drekoushranada (Aug 12, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> "hey mom, do you have an extra aloe plant i can have??" This is what she brings me! lol. It's a little messy IMO, and hasn't been drinking much water at all. I would think i should divide a bunch of it up into separate pots or one no-till bed with spacing between each plant? Come on you experienced aloe growers... i don't wanna be buying powder, i just want to harvest my own, and grow these fillets as big as i can with this variety. I plan on consuming some myself! also, any tips on preparation for me or my plants? i've just been going with the slice in half and scrape with one smooth knife stroke to get the flesh out. works pretty good and my plants are loving it so far.


I must say I never seen that before. Haha. Looks pretty cool. I would divide it up as you stated.


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## zonderkop (Aug 12, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i've just been going with the slice in half and scrape with one smooth knife stroke to get the flesh out. works pretty good and my plants are loving it so far.


i did it that way at first, but then i just chopped it all in my blender and strained it. the strained bits went to the worms.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 13, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> i did it that way at first, but then i just chopped it all in my blender and strained it. the strained bits went to the worms.


genius!!! going to just do that from now on because it's a little time consuming to do scrape method. plus i'll get more outta these smaller pieces until i get these plants repotted this weekend.


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 13, 2015)

zonderkop said:


> i did it that way at first, but then i just chopped it all in my blender and strained it. the strained bits went to the worms.


I do this except that I technically topdress with the aloe flesh bits as I don't strain mine. It get a consumed in less than a day so I assume the microorganisms love it.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 13, 2015)

right i havent been straining mine as i have been top dressing it too, but i'm going to start some foliars so i'll need to strain soon! got three that are around the 3 week mark so i'll be using foliar on them for the next 2 weeks probably. 

midwest, do you foliar between waterings? or do you using the blue mats as most seem to now? with blue mats i'd say one can foliar any time one likes? (of course within reason and always before lights off) also with the blue mats... when one waters a tea or whatever one is adding, its not to the point of running out as the soil is already the perfect moisture correct? so i'd be better off just doing a measured amount like 32-48 fl. oz. per 15 gal container??? or do you soak them pretty well. i'd just feel like i was wasting the tea if it ran through....


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## nvhak49 (Aug 13, 2015)

I'm still new and learning organics and recycled soil both of my girls that are lacking a few nutes. They're both in black gold potting soil, compost and I mixed in tomato/bloom nutes from jobes which was probably not the greatest but I think my lemon kush is lacking calcium and maybe nitrogen and mag but not totally sure. And my purple widow I'm not totally sure what she's lacking, I've been watering her with Epsom salts and top dressed her with the same tomatoe bloom nutes and they seem to not be bouncing back. They're under a 1000w hps. The lemon kush is 6 weeks into flower and the purple widow is 3 weeks into flower. Once I run out of the jobes tomatoe bloom nutes in going to buy single nutes from down to earth since they're omri listed nutes. If anyone could help me in what they need it would be much appreciated, thanks a head of time.

 
Purple Widow

 
Lemon Kush


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 13, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> I'm still new and learning organics and recycled soil both of my girls that are lacking a few nutes. They're both in black gold potting soil, compost and I mixed in tomato/bloom nutes from jobes which was probably not the greatest but I think my lemon kush is lacking calcium and maybe nitrogen and mag but not totally sure. And my purple widow I'm not totally sure what she's lacking, I've been watering her with Epsom salts and top dressed her with the same tomatoe bloom nutes and they seem to not be bouncing back. They're under a 1000w hps. The lemon kush is 6 weeks into flower and the purple widow is 3 weeks into flower. Once I run out of the jobes tomatoe bloom nutes in going to buy single nutes from down to earth since they're omri listed nutes. If anyone could help me in what they need it would be much appreciated, thanks a head of time.
> 
> View attachment 3478517 View attachment 3478518
> Purple Widow
> ...


I would go with a compost tea since you've given them nutes. They might not be available fast enough. Or maybe your pots are too small.

Try fish hydrolysate. It is my go to fert along with worm castings, alfalfa, crab/shrimp shell, neem, kelp, and gypsum.

Gypsum would work fast for calcium and include much needed sulfur. Crab shell has calcium and nitrogen, and fish hydrolysate has a little nitrogen. Neem has a bunch of nitrogen and worms love it. alfalfa would work, never had a problem in flower but only use a little. I would start it as a tea and topdress the leftovers if you use alfalfa.

You can make teas with any of the above for instant nutrient boosts during the grow. Go for the bases and bubble 24 hours min and pour it on.


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## nvhak49 (Aug 13, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I would go with a compost tea since you've given them nutes. They might not be available fast enough. Or maybe your pots are too small.
> 
> Try fish hydrolysate. It is my go to fert along with worm castings, alfalfa, crab/shrimp shell, neem, kelp, and gypsum.
> 
> ...


Oh ok cool I'll get a bucket or tote and make some teas, I dunno why I didn't think of that earlier. Should I dilute the tea before watering? They're in 5gallon smart pots I didn't have any issues my last cycle but this is my first time running these strains in a organic soil mix.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 14, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> I'm still new and learning organics and recycled soil both of my girls that are lacking a few nutes. They're both in black gold potting soil, compost and I mixed in tomato/bloom nutes from jobes which was probably not the greatest but I think my lemon kush is lacking calcium and maybe nitrogen and mag but not totally sure. And my purple widow I'm not totally sure what she's lacking, I've been watering her with Epsom salts and top dressed her with the same tomatoe bloom nutes and they seem to not be bouncing back. They're under a 1000w hps. The lemon kush is 6 weeks into flower and the purple widow is 3 weeks into flower. Once I run out of the jobes tomatoe bloom nutes in going to buy single nutes from down to earth since they're omri listed nutes. If anyone could help me in what they need it would be much appreciated, thanks a head of time.
> 
> View attachment 3478517 View attachment 3478518
> Purple Widow
> ...


It looks to me like you have pH issues going on. 6 weeks into flower, I'd probably just hit them with a few strong compost teas. Your one that is 3 weeks into flower, you might try a healthy layer of EWC, and maybe even an alfalfa/kelp tea to give it some quick available nutrients. Just saw you are using epsom salts. I'd be careful with that one. Wen you can, ditch the jobs and pick up some kelp, alfalfa, neem, etc. DTE isn't bad for most stuff. Personally I like the ahimsa neem much better than DTE. Best I can do before coffee lol!

Peace!

P-


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## ShLUbY (Aug 14, 2015)

The lemon kush actually looks like its just aging me to if its at 6 weeks. i wouldn't be upset if it's coming down in 2 weeks. I'm not sure about the purple rider though... 

I'm not trying to be rude or anything, i just want to point something obvious out.... when you don't know what the problem is... why give it nutes??? I don't give my plants anything without a pretty good idea of what the problem is. Sometimes you can compound that problem by putting that extra something in the soil... especially if Ph is off and things are unavailable. growweedeasy.com is a decent source for diagnosing a problem by yourself. So, say you find what you're looking for on that site and you have say a manganese deficiency. I would then go to good ol google and type in the following "manganese role in plants"... in the results you should be able to find some more info about what manganese does for the plant, and where it will show signs of deficiency first. multiple positive sources for deficiencies is a good thing and can help you get to the bottom of it faster! Hope you can figure it out!! Always choose those OMRI products when you can because they at least meet some standard.... but sometimes the standard is not great enough  remember to read ingredients and be selective about what you put in your garden! if you have some more problems and plants get worse show us some more pics.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 14, 2015)

anyone using a DIY 5 gal bucket cloner?? I was gonna do a 24 hr aloe solution (1.5 cups total of aloe+h20) and soak the stems of the cuts in that for 24 hours... then put them in the auto cloner and use aloe foliars during the process. anyone doing this method or a slight variation of it or are you all just coating the stem with the aloe gel and sticking it in the peat pods? I just seem to like the auto cloner better than the domes.


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## Joedank (Aug 14, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> It looks to me like you have pH issues going on. 6 weeks into flower, I'd probably just hit them with a few strong compost teas. Your one that is 3 weeks into flower, you might try a healthy layer of EWC, and maybe even an alfalfa/kelp tea to give it some quick available nutrients. Just saw you are using epsom salts. I'd be careful with that one. Wen you can, ditch the jobs and pick up some kelp, alfalfa, neem, etc. DTE isn't bad for most stuff. Personally I like the ahimsa neem much better than DTE. Best I can do before coffee lol!
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


man did i burn my tomater plants with ahimsa neem cake and alfalfa top dress... too much ... ooppppssss
i got so many worms in my indoor big containers it turned all my peat into castings . i gotta screen them better or get store bought in the future for indoors . too many worms is no bueno .

casting tea is a good go to for me when i can figure out the problem . i DO "PH" my teas and use ksil as ph up and citric acid as ph down .... it has really helped when feeding "thirsty plants " as the ion concentration is correct so uptake can happen more quickly 5.9-6.5 for veg and 6.3-6.7 for flower has allowed me to reuse soil to good effect without it getting "crazy" out of whack....also lets the plants access nutrents that you "desire" they have more readly...lol.... not quite "organic" but i like massage the cycles a lil just my .02


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## Mohican (Aug 14, 2015)

I am using a Clone King that I modified to have 12 plants.

Tap water, mild nutes, Pro-Tekt and foliar with kelp. Got my first root in 3 days.

I cut them under water to avoid air bubbles (embolism) in the stem. I scrape and split the stem and use root hormone powder.






Cheers,
Mo


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## nvhak49 (Aug 14, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> It looks to me like you have pH issues going on. 6 weeks into flower, I'd probably just hit them with a few strong compost teas. Your one that is 3 weeks into flower, you might try a healthy layer of EWC, and maybe even an alfalfa/kelp tea to give it some quick available nutrients. Just saw you are using epsom salts. I'd be careful with that one. Wen you can, ditch the jobs and pick up some kelp, alfalfa, neem, etc. DTE isn't bad for most stuff. Personally I like the ahimsa neem much better than DTE. Best I can do before coffee lol!
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


Yeah I just started brewing a tea last night I'll be watering with it today and hopefully they bounce back. Once I'm out of the jones I won't be using stuff like that anymore. I'll get the few things you've said to get and a few other things and brew some more teas too. 

The lemon kush is a 10week flower my last one took 11 so it till has month to go. Thanks for the helps guys I appreciate it.


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## Mohican (Aug 14, 2015)

I just watered the worm bin girl with green tea!

I had an old box of kelp meal that had gotten waterlogged in a container outside. That was a mess!

I tossed the whole box on top of the worm bin and slow soaked it for an hour. This was two days ago. Now the Animal Cookies is stacking like a monster!

I lifted up the box and there are giant worms underneath!


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 14, 2015)

I'm way late on responding to this. Buut anyways



ShLUbY said:


> right i havent been straining mine as i have been top dressing it too, but i'm going to start some foliars so i'll need to strain soon! got three that are around the 3 week mark so i'll be using foliar on them for the next 2 weeks probably.
> 
> midwest, do you foliar between waterings? or do you using the blue mats as most seem to now? with blue mats i'd say one can foliar any time one likes? (of course within reason and always before lights off) also with the blue mats... when one waters a tea or whatever one is adding, its not to the point of running out as the soil is already the perfect moisture correct? so i'd be better off just doing a measured amount like 32-48 fl. oz. per 15 gal container??? or do you soak them pretty well. i'd just feel like i was wasting the tea if it ran through....


I used to foliar in between but I've stopped and haven't seen a noticeable difference. With every watering I never water enough to have more than like 1-5% runoff. It's usually my goal to not have run off. Which to me means not using less water per se, just slower and more deliberate watering. If I take my time I can get my medium more saturated than if I flooded the planter or what have you. When I'm in solo cups I'll hold them side ways, upside down, etc just to make sure every spec of soil medium is hydrated.


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## Mohican (Aug 14, 2015)

Animal Cookies plus kelp meal box:





Cheers,
Mo


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## hyroot (Aug 14, 2015)

Hey I'm having issues with this Dark side of the moon. That last few days. When the light comes on all the leaves are praying. It looks great. Then 2 hours later it's drooping like its severely under watered. But it's not. Then the next day it's perky again. Then 2 hours later it's droopy. Last watering I t got an sst.

I've just never seen a plant go back and forth repeatedly like this. I almost thought it was dying the first time it did this. Then it bounced back the next day then back to drooping.



Here's a droopy pic. Notice the tops of the side branching are keeled over so to speak 



If it keeps doing this I know won't yield shit.


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## Joedank (Aug 14, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Hey I'm having issues with this Dark side of the moon. That last few days. When the light comes on all the leaves are praying. It looks great. Then 2 hours later it's drooping like its severely under watered. But it's not. Then the next day it's perky again. Then 2 hours later it's droopy. Last watering I t got an sst.
> 
> I've just never seen a plant go back and forth repeatedly like this. I almost thought it was dying the first time it did this. Then it bounced back the next day then back to drooping.
> 
> ...


check into stem or root nemetoads ... scanmask WORKS for that ...


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## hyroot (Aug 14, 2015)

Joedank said:


> check into stem or root nemetoads ... scanmask WORKS for that ...



I did . I looked for black mold too. Thinking stem rot. But didn't find any. If that was the case it wouldn't bounce back either It got a compost tea the watering before last. . I also dug up the soil in one spot.and the roots looked healthy.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 15, 2015)

crazy, never heard of a plant doing that to that extreme before. Hope she is gonna make it for you!!


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## Pattahabi (Aug 15, 2015)

This is from Teaming with Microbes and in a nut shell is why I suggested EWC and compost teas for plants having uptake issues.

_What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don’t) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant’s rhizosphere by the plant’s exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.

So, while you may forget the chemistry of pH, at least remember there is a biological side. Do no harm to it, and you shouldn’t have to worry much about pH when you grow plants in soil. Moreover, the nutrient exchanges that occur above also have a lot to do with what kind of bacteria and fungi are attracted to the root zone as some like higher pH and others lower pH._

I do not advocate pH'ing of any kind in an organic soil. However, that's just how I skin my cat. 

Peace!

P-


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## Joedank (Aug 15, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> This is from Teaming with Microbes and in a nut shell is why I suggested EWC and compost teas for plants having uptake issues.
> 
> _What soil growers need to know (and hydroponics growers don’t) is that the type of bacteria and fungi attracted to a plant’s rhizosphere by the plant’s exudates has a lot to do with setting this optimal pH. Bacteria produce a slim that raises the pH, and fungi produce acids that lower the pH. Since the plant is in control of the biology it attracts, in a natural system, it is the plant that determines the pH, and not some chemistry teacher.
> 
> ...


that is poor advice to give someone using a "bottled nute"
i have found this quote aimed at real earth farmers NOT soilless .
we are using a "soiless media " almost across the board . very few folks use soil from the earth . so as such .
i have seen un ph'ed soil go from 6.5 to 4.5 hydrogen ion concentration , thus rendering it unuseable . no amount of compost of innoculation will help .
was just offred a whole traincar full of "wasted soil" from a local disp. i sent the soil test to logan for reccomendations . they said the bound phos and potassium will be no bueno for adding any sort of calcium product to alter ph .
BUT they said adding it to my home dirt in the yard would be fine as the worms nemetoads and fungi would correct any issues....


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## Joedank (Aug 15, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I did . I looked for black mold too. Thinking stem rot. But didn't find any. If that was the case it wouldn't bounce back either It got a compost tea the watering before last. . I also dug up the soil in one spot.and the roots looked healthy.


ok thats really good . i have had this happen in outdoor plants . the causes have been varied . 
the plants leaves look good . have you tried drying it out till it was light as air just once see if it thrips . or root aphids..


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## Pattahabi (Aug 15, 2015)

Joedank said:


> that is poor advice to give someone using a "bottled nute"
> i have found this quote aimed at real earth farmers NOT soilless .
> we are using a "soiless media " almost across the board . very few folks use soil from the earth . so as such .
> i have seen un ph'ed soil go from 6.5 to 4.5 hydrogen ion concentration , thus rendering it unuseable . no amount of compost of innoculation will help .
> ...


Terrible advise eh? I've used this method many times to fix soil that plants wouldn't grow well in. pH'ing compost teas is not good for the microbes. Ask Microbeman. I didn't quote your post for a reason. We aren't going to agree on the compost teas. So rather than getting crappy with you, I'm going to agree to disagree. This is the ROLS thread, we are growing in a living organic soil where the plants and microbes dictate the pH of the soil. Myself and many others have been growing with the same soil using these techniques for years. So to each their own, but I think you're a little out of line on your terrible advise comment.

@nvhak49 are you using bottled nutes? 

Edit: From MicrobeOrganics.com "In my opinion manipulation of the pH is not a wise practice in natural growing unless dramatic acidity or alkalinity are measured. Soil with a healthy microbial population tends to self regulate the pH."

P-


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## Joedank (Aug 15, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Terrible advise eh? I've used this method many times to fix soil that plants wouldn't grow well in. pH'ing compost teas is not good for the microbes. Ask Microbeman. I didn't quote your post for a reason. We aren't going to agree on the compost teas. So rather than getting crappy with you, I'm going to agree to disagree. This is the ROLS thread, we are growing in a living organic soil where the plants and microbes dictate the pH of the soil. Myself and many others have been growing with the same soil using these techniques for years. So to each their own, but I think you're a little out of line on your terrible advise comment.
> 
> @nvhak49 are you using bottled nutes?
> 
> ...


based on that quote you posted we are of a like mind more than you think....lol....
i am talking 100 to 1000 times the rith hydrogen ion concentration withch anyone useing bokashi should know . a full brewed batch is like 4.5-5.0.... i add ksil cuz it works better ... guess i am speaking to diffrent folks
"
Now if you have a thimble-full of the water and it has a pH of 1 (it's unbelievably, instantly, fish-killingly acidic), there will be one million times (10 to the power of 6, written 106) more hydrogen ions than there would be if the water were neutral (neither acidic nor alkaline), with a pH of 7. That's because a pH of 1 means 101 (which is just 10), and a pH of 7 means 107 (10 million), so dividing the two gives us 106 (one million). There will be 10 million million (1013) more hydrogen ions than if the water were extremely alkaline, with a pH of 14. Maybe you can start to see now where those mysterious pH numbers come from?"


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## Pattahabi (Aug 15, 2015)

Joedank said:


> based on that quote you posted we are of a like mind more than you think....lol....
> i am talking 100 to 1000 times the rith hydrogen ion concentration withch anyone useing bokashi should know . a full brewed batch is like 4.5-5.0.... i add ksil cuz it works better ... guess i am speaking to diffrent folks
> "
> Now if you have a thimble-full of the water and it has a pH of 1 (it's unbelievably, instantly, fish-killingly acidic), there will be one million times (10 to the power of 6, written 106) more hydrogen ions than there would be if the water were neutral (neither acidic nor alkaline), with a pH of 7. That's because a pH of 1 means 101 (which is just 10), and a pH of 7 means 107 (10 million), so dividing the two gives us 106 (one million). There will be 10 million million (1013) more hydrogen ions than if the water were extremely alkaline, with a pH of 14. Maybe you can start to see now where those mysterious pH numbers come from?"


I am very familiar with how pH works. I don't like to be told that I'm giving terrible advise, especially when it is advise that I have personally, as well as others, have used with excellent results. It's what the founders of the ROLS threads preach - Coot, MM, Bluejay, etc. When we have a living soil, we let the soil do the work and we LITFA. Do no harm to your microbes and they tend to balance the soil. When people add questionable compost, jobs nutes, etc, etc they disrupt the balance of the soil.

On another note, citric acid, and other pH adjusters, kill bacteria and microbes. I can not fathom why we would go through the work of breeding microbes, only to add something that kills them? I could be wrong here, but I have never heard MM, Elaine Ingham, or any other microbe people saying to pH balance your compost teas.

My 2¢,

P-


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## Joedank (Aug 15, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I am very familiar with how pH works. I don't like to be told that I'm giving terrible advise, especially when it is advise that I have personally, as well as others, have used with excellent results. It's what the founders of the ROLS threads preach - Coot, MM, Bluejay, etc. When we have a living soil, we let the soil do the work and we LITFA. Do no harm to your microbes and they tend to balance the soil. When people add questionable compost, jobs nutes, etc, etc they disrupt the balance of the soil.
> 
> On another note, citric acid, and other pH adjusters, kill bacteria and microbes. I can not fathom why we would go through the work of breeding microbes, only to add something that kills them? I could be wrong here, but I have never heard MM, Elaine Ingham, or any other microbe people saying to pH balance your compost teas.
> 
> ...


quote me correctly , i said "poor advice" meaning what i would say to a grower with a closed mind... poor guy ... lol i know your not like that...
your opinion is most respected by me . it makes me think on subjects harder my reasooning for citric acid is summed up here and is contrary to your opinion . i hope mine is based in FACT though....
Organic, carbon-based citric acid also acts as a potential food source for your beneficial microbes (they feed on carbon). This will help keep your “good” microbe population happy, while avoiding unhealthy, anaerobic conditions.

The best part of all is that citric acid really works. In fact, it does all of the “good” things that mineral acids do, but in a much gentler fashion. It also does some things that mineral acids aren’t able to.

Unlike mineral acids, Citric acid will not change your N-P-K ratio. How does this work? Well, nitric acid contains nitrogen. With Phosphoric acid, you’ve got phosphorus. And with sulfuric acid, you’re adding sulfur. By using citric acid, you’ll get its acidifying benefits, without adding additional nutrient sources, so there’s no need to rethink your N-P-Ks after applying it.

Citric acid also helps chelate essential minerals that are bound up in the soil. Applications of citric acid will take these insoluble, oxidized micronutrients and make them available for uptake and use by your turf. Citric acid is also part of the Krebs cycle, and transports micronutrients through the xylem.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 15, 2015)

Joedank said:


> quote me correctly , i said "poor advice" meaning what i would say to a grower with a closed mind... poor guy ... lol i know your not like that...
> your opinion is most respected by me . it makes me think on subjects harder my reasooning for citric acid is summed up here and is contrary to your opinion . i hope mine is based in FACT though....
> Organic, carbon-based citric acid also acts as a potential food source for your beneficial microbes (they feed on carbon). This will help keep your “good” microbe population happy, while avoiding unhealthy, anaerobic conditions.
> 
> ...


My apologies, you said poor advice, not terrible advice. I don't want to sound like a jerk. I know I don’t word things well. I appreciate your comment about making you think harder about a subject. This is one of the few reasons I still post on da weed boards. When people challenge your beliefs it makes you question them and do a little research. In which, I pretty much always learn something. I really don’t care if people want to pH adjust their soil. I know I won’t be anytime soon. So I don’t want to spend too much time on pH adjusting, but the thought of citric acid being added to a organic soil is thought provoking. So, without too much time I found this on logiacalgardener from Carllost:

_wondered if any of you guys adjust the ph of your teas? if so what with?

is there any particular ph level that the act bacteria prefer?
over time all my teas head to around 8.7 then hold there on there own

ive been observing adjustments made with citric acid and phosphoric acid over the course of a week or so

ive been dropping the ph of my act to around 6.5 from its start point of 8.7 (should mention this is tea ive removed from my perpetual brew system)

with the citric after about 10mins the ph starts to rise to above 7 . in an hour or so its back in the 8 s . ive continued to do this over the course of a week or so observing the microlife within the solution . the citric acid batch seemed to hold higher numbers of microbes than my control batch , although i could not keep the ph down.

the phosphoric acid visibly reduced numbers of microlife within minutes of adding , however the ph did hold at lower numbers for the duration of my observations (again around a week). by the end of the week the batch with the phosphoric had very little life in it ,while the control batch was perfectly healthy._

Tim’s response:

_Carl; I have never altered pH of ACT. I may have mentioned I've observed finished ACT with the 3 microbial groups desired at approximate 'appropriate' levels in CT ranging fro 4.5 pH all the way to 9 pH. It is likely that various species of bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae influence the pH up or down, besides considering the water type/quality and DO2 level.

No offense but I caution you against becoming caught up in using language like 'perfectly healthy' in reference to the microbial make up of a liquid solution like CT. There are some who state things like 'I used XXX in my CT and it had lots of microbial life'. I think we can do a disservice to poeple just learning, that what we are seeking in ACT, etc. is just lots of stuff wriggling around, when lots of stuff wriggling around could actually be pathogenic. There are folks putting themselves out there as experts on compost tea who only address or illustrate the bacterial content. IMO it is always best to at least qualify as best we can what we are seeing for the sake of teaching others and attempting to turn the tide of misinformation steaming ahead. Even by stating the groups observed would be great._

So, sounds like Tim hasn’t tried altering the pH of ACT. I would like to hear Tim or Elaine’s opinion about why or why not you would alter the pH of ACT’s. I don't have the time to really dig into this atm. I'd love to hear what others come up with.

Peace,

P-


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## Joedank (Aug 15, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> My apologies, you said poor advice, not terrible advice. I don't want to sound like a jerk. I know I don’t word things well. I appreciate your comment about making you think harder about a subject. This is one of the few reasons I still post on da weed boards. When people challenge your beliefs it makes you question them and do a little research. In which, I pretty much always learn something. I really don’t care if people want to pH adjust their soil. I know I won’t be anytime soon. So I don’t want to spend too much time on pH adjusting, but the thought of citric acid being added to a organic soil is thought provoking. So, without too much time I found this on logiacalgardener from Carllost:
> 
> _wondered if any of you guys adjust the ph of your teas? if so what with?
> 
> ...


my only reason is my pots get "too dry " and i like the idea of them getting a mix that is not only useable but easy to digest for the changes i see in my plant . i think of it as "holding hands " walking down the road . it tells me more of this or that and i try to resopnd with a ph that chelates the minerals in a fasion i desire . it is a new school approch to a old problem of avoiding :lush growth that is bad for smokeable products .... imo long brews are good for my roses and asparagus as they thrive in those soils but not my annuals .... IMHE
@genuity i see you lurking you wann chime in here i know you got TONS of knowledge in this area . sorry if your busy or some shit . neem meal on the way


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## Pattahabi (Aug 15, 2015)

Joedank said:


> my only reason is my pots get "too dry " and i like the idea of them getting a mix that is not only useable but easy to digest for the changes i see in my plant . i think of it as "holding hands " walking down the road . it tells me more of this or that and i try to resopnd with a ph that chelates the minerals in a fasion i desire . it is a new school approch to a old problem of avoiding :lush growth that is bad for smokeable products .... imo long brews are good for my roses and asparagus as they thrive in those soils but not my annuals .... IMHE
> @genuity i see you lurking you wann chime in here i know you got TONS of knowledge in this area . sorry if your busy or some shit . neem meal on the way


I don't want to get in a long conversation and I don't want to sound like a jerk. I respect your path, it's just not one that agrees with my paradigm of a living organic soil. I don't believe in pH'ing your water. With that said, I'm going to politely step out of this conversation acknowledging there are 100 ways to skin a cat.

Peace,

P-


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## hyroot (Aug 15, 2015)

Any thoughts on ph issues with sst. All my other plants are fine. But my basil got watered with same sst. The leaves are not droopy. But all the branches on the basil plant went limp. That plant is about 2 years old. It's been harvested every month. It was 3 feet tall when I watered it with the sst.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 15, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Any thoughts on ph issues with sst. All my other plants are fine. But my basil got watered with same sst. The leaves are not droopy. But all the branches on the basil plant went limp. That plant is about 2 years old. It's been harvested every month. It was 3 feet tall when I watered it with the sst.


I don't know about pH, but I have found out the hard way more than once, watering small seedlings with an sst, especially a strong one, can be a bad thing lol. I would cut the sst solution with more water and see if it has a better outcome.



P-


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## Pattahabi (Aug 15, 2015)

@greasemonkeymann I was looking through some saved old posts in relation to your love for leaf mold, etc. I found this old quote from Coot. The ways in which we can alter the compost and it's process are mind boggling. I simply don't have the space to experiment with this, but hope to in the future. A good humus source is paramount.

_waktoo

Whew! After your first post when I read the second post a bell went off in my feeble brain. True black leaf mold is a multi-year process – 3 – 4 years is the normal time required. This would fall under the cold composting definition. True black leaf mold is impossible to find in my area – way too much demand because of how it performs for organic farmers.

When compost is ramped up it is to kill pathogens and degrade seeds. Composting is not a process of heat but rather microbes and when the pile hits 132F (or something close) what we’ve done is effectively wiped out the microbe colonies contained in the materials you’re going to use. These colonies are re-built through a number of processes and it’s the microbes that deconstruct (degrade) our compost.

When the temps drop down into the mesophyllic stage the development of fungi begins and it’s this group of microbes which can degrade lignin because bacteria has little if any effect.

High temps are important maybe even critical if we’re using mammalian manures in part because of the different medicines, vermicides, etc. that the animals are given. You know about that deal….

When using clean plant materials (like I do) the need for the high temps isn’t really there.
So how about this – do a search at scholar.google.com for this text string: cold vs. hot composting and see if it makes sense to you and your situation.

Back to your leaf mold – even 1 year would show high fungi levels which you want and need. If you have the time to invest then using ‘fresh’ dried leaves might be the better game plan and then adding the partially finished leaf mold when you drop into the mesophyllic stage which would then inoculate your compost pile with high levels of fungi colonies.

I was just trying to think this through so that you can maximize the benefits you’ve already created with the cold-composted leaves.

Looking at both methods will be informative and helpful…

CC_

Peace!

P-


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## Joedank (Aug 15, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Any thoughts on ph issues with sst. All my other plants are fine. But my basil got watered with same sst. The leaves are not droopy. But all the branches on the basil plant went limp. That plant is about 2 years old. It's been harvested every month. It was 3 feet tall when I watered it with the sst.


woah . i just mixed up some corn sst and i only do like 1 cup of corn slurry about 200grams final sprouted corn . and see great effect even alone with no bubbleing in ALL my plants ... 
weird hope there is not some fungus we are brewing that fucks up the vascular sysem of plants ...

black leaf mold is awsome . good info as usual coot ....


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## hyroot (Aug 15, 2015)

I did corn seed too. All my other plants didn't have any negative effects. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why only one plant has gotten fucked and the others are doing great. That dark side. Didn't bounce back today. It's severely droopy. Not dead but looks like it's on it's way there. If it dies I'm tossing the whole 10 gal pot of soil. It doesn't make sense.

The only thing I can think of is root rot. It doesn't appear to have root rot. It's able to stand on it's own and everything. . Not falling over just very droopy. I learned about root rot the hard way years ago. When I over watered an sog grow.


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## Joedank (Aug 15, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I did corn seed too. All my other plants didn't have any negative effects. I'm just trying to wrap my head around why only one plant has gotten fucked and the others are doing great. That dark side. Didn't bounce back today. It's severely droopy. Not dead but looks like it's on it's way there. If it dies I'm tossing the whole 10 gal pot of soil. It doesn't make sense.
> 
> The only thing I can think of is root rot. It doesn't appear to have root rot. It's able to stand on it's own and everything. . Not falling over just very droopy. I learned about root rot the hard way years ago. When I over watered an sog grow.


bummer man hope it picks up ... i use quantum growth light someytimes for that very reason ...


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## hyroot (Aug 16, 2015)

After some rereading. Some humus can be acidic. Ie humic acid I guess. Then the sst after. The sst didn't aerate for more than 30 min when that plant got watered though. It looks like shit still. Fuck man. I think I'm over all teas altogether. Just water only soil.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 16, 2015)

hey hyroot how far down did you check for root rot? i've experienced before where new roots are growing in the top of the soil (because there is more air there i believe and the soil dries faster). maybe if you toss the pot of soil too you will find that the lower half of the root ball is in much worse shape than you thought, but i could be wrong. 



hyroot said:


> After some rereading. Some humus can be acedic. Ie humic acid I guess. Then the sst after. The sst didn't aerate for more than 30 min when that plant got watered though. It looks like shit still. Fuck man. I think I'm over all teas altogether. Just water only soil.


did you mean acetic, or acidic?


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## hyroot (Aug 16, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> hey hyroot how far down did you check for root rot? i've experienced before where new roots are growing in the top of the soil (because there is more air there i believe and the soil dries faster). maybe if you toss the pot of soil too you will find that the lower half of the root ball is in much worse shape than you thought, but i could be wrong.
> 
> 
> 
> did you mean acetic, or acidic?


Acidic. My phone ...... spell check


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## ShLUbY (Aug 16, 2015)

ahhh. well in that case... how would you not put together that humic ACID is acidic? lol i only know this because I have a ph pen and i've always enjoyed the use of the humic because i usually didn't have to add any ph adjuster (citric acid) to my water to get the ph down! I always assumed the slightly acid waterings from humic would be beneficial, as water with acidic measures can and will dissolve things more readily. thought the combo of that and the slight bit of organic matter was part of the science of why it worked so well (my hypothesis anyways). i'll have to do some more reading myself. 

So you think it was the SST that did that to your basil and just one of the cannabis? what about soil moisture content in general? is there a possibility that maybe if there was already unknown existing damage to the roots and a thorough watering just caused more stress??? i'd be pulling that root ball up from the pot and checkin it out if it's possible without harming the plant too much more....


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## Mohican (Aug 16, 2015)

Basil is a strange plant and being that it is an herb, does not like wet conditions. The more I ignore basil the happier it gets!

Hope your basil bounces back!


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## ShLUbY (Aug 16, 2015)

ok I have some things on my shopping list that i have to order for my first no-till LOS ... if you guys know of some better prices/sources or if I am missing some "must have" would you please inform me?? thanks

Amazon:
Dr. Earth Soft Rock Phosphate $12.00 3lbs
Natures Harvest Crab Shell $16.00 4lbs
White Clover Seeds $12.00 1lb
Organic Alfalfa Sprouting Seeds $12.00 lb
Dr. Bronners Peppermint Soap typical price
Bobs Redmill White Popcorn $12.00 for 4pack of popcorn
Pumice 3/8" screened 16 quarts (4gal) $26.00 (looks like same deal on ebay)
EM-1, can't decided if i should get a quart or a gallon because of the price ($34qt or $65gal). just dont want the gallon to go bad or something but i'll be using it in my outdoor vegetable garden as well!

Gonna get some Neem Oil, Neem Meal, and Karanja Meal from NeemResource.com

I already have kelp meal, alfalfa meal, oyster shell powder, dolomite lime, Bone char (bio char with phosphorus infused 0-16-0 but i'm considering exchanging this for fish bone meal by Organically Done), humic and fulvic acids (can someone tell me why the Ful Power is a superior product to other humics??) Also have a bag of cowboy charcoal that I'm going to make some biochar with and try and get it charged properly.


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## hyroot (Aug 16, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> ahhh. well in that case... how would you not put together that humic ACID is acidic? lol i only know this because I have a ph pen and i've always enjoyed the use of the humic because i usually didn't have to add any ph adjuster (citric acid) to my water to get the ph down! I always assumed the slightly acid waterings from humic would be beneficial, as water with acidic measures can and will dissolve things more readily. thought the combo of that and the slight bit of organic matter was part of the science of why it worked so well (my hypothesis anyways). i'll have to do some more reading myself.
> 
> So you think it was the SST that did that to your basil and just one of the cannabis? what about soil moisture content in general? is there a possibility that maybe if there was already unknown existing damage to the roots and a thorough watering just caused more stress??? i'd be pulling that root ball up from the pot and checkin it out if it's possible without harming the plant too much more....



Well I've known humic acid is acidic but that's a concentrate. I've always though compost is more neutral since it's a buffer too.


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## Mohican (Aug 16, 2015)

All looks like good stuff. What is the popcorn for?

I got neem powder at the local Indian market for $2.99



Are you in SoCal? I think you can get the pumice cheaper at the farm supply (among other stuff).

Cheers,
Mo


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## ShLUbY (Aug 16, 2015)

Mohican said:


> All looks like good stuff. What is the popcorn for?
> 
> I got neem powder at the local Indian market for $2.99
> 
> ...


Mo: how do you use the powder in your grow?

popcorn is for SST as well. i need to make sure that the bob's stuff will actually sprout before i buy it. Otherwise i'll be sourcing a different popcorn! I saw someone using it before on youtube vid. it's a cheap source for SST (@$1.62lb for the bobs) until i start using my own stuff from my garden outside. I wish i would have known about SST years ago... i could have saved so much brocolli, pak choy, cilantro, arugula, i mean all sorts of stuff for SST (even my own strawberry popcorn!! too bad i didnt plant any this year  ). i would think all seeds would be beneficial, some more than others. what better than to recycle from the organic garden! Plus, as another member posted i'll just continue to sprout them and eat them! yum... can't wait. GENIUS! cilantro SST would be good a good soil IPM along with the enzymes and what not maybe?

Unfortunately i'll have to ship in some pumice as I'm in michigan so the only stuff i have local source to is glacial rock dust, which is good, but i'm not aware of any local material i could use in place of the pumice (pumice seems like the best way to go to me, anyone disagree?) i wanna get some basalt dust, and i have azomite already. just want a good blend. The pumice is screened to 3/8"... should i get something more course to mix in with that??? i'll also be using the bio char for aeration material (5-10%).

Just want to say how much i love this thread and thank you to all you folks who are sharing on here and. wish i could share some of these ice wax dabs with you all from my last batch as a token of appreciation!


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## Mohican (Aug 16, 2015)

I was planning on mixing it with my soil. The store owner said his father would make a tea with it and use it as a foliar to prevent pests.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 16, 2015)

Gypsum or Dolomite Lime? Heard Gypsum acts faster than dolomite... maybe do a little of both since i'd like to do a no-till? Also gonna use some oyster shell i think. thanks.


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## Joedank (Aug 16, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Mo: how do you use the powder in your grow?
> 
> popcorn is for SST as well. i need to make sure that the bob's stuff will actually sprout before i buy it. Otherwise i'll be sourcing a different popcorn! I saw someone using it before on youtube vid. it's a cheap source for SST (@$1.62lb for the bobs) until i start using my own stuff from my garden outside. I wish i would have known about SST years ago... i could have saved so much brocolli, pak choy, cilantro, arugula, i mean all sorts of stuff for SST (even my own strawberry popcorn!! too bad i didnt plant any this year  ). i would think all seeds would be beneficial, some more than others. what better than to recycle from the organic garden! Plus, as another member posted i'll just continue to sprout them and eat them! yum... can't wait. GENIUS! cilantro SST would be good a good soil IPM along with the enzymes and what not maybe?
> 
> ...


i bet you can get pumice or lava rock at a local landscape supply....


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## Joedank (Aug 16, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Gypsum or Dolomite Lime? Heard Gypsum acts faster than dolomite... maybe do a little of both since i'd like to do a no-till? Also gonna use some oyster shell i think. thanks.


gypsum and oyster is fine . no need for lime ...IMO


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 16, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Gypsum or Dolomite Lime? Heard Gypsum acts faster than dolomite... maybe do a little of both since i'd like to do a no-till? Also gonna use some oyster shell i think. thanks.


Gypsum is not a liming agent in and of itself. If you are looking for a pH buffer best to stick with oyster shell, crab meal, egg shells, etc imo. It is still good to have the gypsum for the sulfur aspect. 

Peace!

P-


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

@Joedank thanks, i'll give them a check and see if i can turn something up. i may even get some rice hulls too just for diversity.

@Pattahabi yeah but if i'm going to have soft rock phosphate i have the sulfur covered!! I remember now that you mention it that the gypsum was a product for Calcium supply, and not for liming agent. thanks! 

what is it in particular that you ROLS folks dont like about the dolomite lime?? if i recall correctly, is it because: if you use a good quality compost/EWC/VC and have a happy biosphere the organisms take care of the Ph? I'm just worried about finding stuff of quality around here. I live in GMO capital of michigan... the thumb! not many organic farmers around here but i'll hit craigslist or something and see what i can turn up for compost/EWC. 

I can seem to only find the powdered gypsum... is this going to dissolve too quickly? i definitely DONT want to use the espoma stuff. anyone have a good brand of not such a fine gypsum??

thoughts on bentonite clay? 1lb is only 7$ on amazon for dry powdered pure. Seems like a small amount of clay in the soil would be a good thing to have for CE (like .5% - 1.5%)

What do you guys do for Fe (iron)?? Am i just overlooking this??? is it dissolving from the rock dusts?


----------



## docter (Aug 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> anyone using a DIY 5 gal bucket cloner?? I was gonna do a 24 hr aloe solution (1.5 cups total of aloe+h20) and soak the stems of the cuts in that for 24 hours... then put them in the auto cloner and use aloe foliars during the process. anyone doing this method or a slight variation of it or are you all just coating the stem with the aloe gel and sticking it in the peat pods? I just seem to like the auto cloner better than the domes.


I made one with a small submersible pump and pcv framework it was cool but I want to redo the project. I even tried a fog machine to power it that was kinda trippy but it made my water temp too high me thinks..


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> @Joedank thanks, i'll give them a check and see if i can turn something up. i may even get some rice hulls too just for diversity.
> 
> @Pattahabi yeah but if i'm going to have soft rock phosphate i have the sulfur covered!! I remember now that you mention it that the gypsum was a product for Calcium supply, and not for liming agent. thanks!
> 
> ...


Yes, the powdered gypsum is what you want. 

P-


----------



## Joedank (Aug 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> @Joedank thanks, i'll give them a check and see if i can turn something up. i may even get some rice hulls too just for diversity.
> 
> @Pattahabi yeah but if i'm going to have soft rock phosphate i have the sulfur covered!! I remember now that you mention it that the gypsum was a product for Calcium supply, and not for liming agent. thanks!
> 
> ...


i started with the powder . switched to "stall dry" DE with calcium bentonite
but i have been using the granulated gypsum stuff from BAS, with great success . cuz silva is hooking me up proper . but any should be fine IME...
iron is in the rock dusts and mineral powders you add .


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i started with the powder . switched to "stall dry" DE with calcium bentonite
> but i have been using the granulated gypsum stuff from BAS, with great success . cuz silva is hooking me up proper . but any should be fine IME...
> iron is in the rock dusts and mineral powders you add .


BAS?


----------



## BobBitchen (Aug 17, 2015)

BAS = build a soil
http://buildasoil.com/collections/all


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Aug 17, 2015)

BobBitchen said:


> BAS = build a soil
> http://buildasoil.com/collections/all


Love those guys, great products and customer support.


----------



## nvhak49 (Aug 17, 2015)

Stupid question but when you guys brew some teas are you guy watering down the tea before water the plants with it? I made some on Thursday its been bubbling ever since. New to making teas, this tea I get for free from a local garden store they have you mix 2.5 ounces per 1gallon of water I put more of the tea I brewed in the water than that but I was wondering what you guys did?


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

i'm new as well but the way i understand it is there are different ways to brew tea. small concentrated teas that get diluted. and then larger buckets of tea that would use the same amount of ingredients and require little to no dilution. i'm sure someone of much more experience can weigh in and get you the info you need


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Aug 17, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Stupid question but when you guys brew some teas are you guy watering down the tea before water the plants with it? I made some on Thursday its been bubbling ever since. New to making teas, this tea I get for free from a local garden store they have you mix 2.5 ounces per 1gallon of water I put more of the tea I brewed in the water than that but I was wondering what you guys did?


If it only has compost, a good food source like bsm, you don't need to dilute it for plant safety, but you're probably dumping in more microorganisms than your media can hold if you have an extremely "concentrated" tea. I'm no aact expert by any means, but when I brew mine for my indoor plants I go way over the strength that most people suggest. If I let my media dry out too much I'll do a watering with a wetting agent like aloe at like 10x the dilution ratio most people use, then the same process for my aact. You're not going to hurt your soil or plants by dumping microorganisms in it. But if you're loading it up with like kelp / alfalfa meal or a guano/manure you're asking for some issues if you don't dilute. But you said it was store bought, so I have no idea what they're brew method is.
There's a lot of wiggle room in organics when you have quality stuff. Not that you can't go overboard, you most certainly can haha.


----------



## nvhak49 (Aug 17, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If it only has compost, a good food source like bsm, you don't need to dilute it for plant safety, but you're probably dumping in more microorganisms than your media can hold if you have an extremely "concentrated" tea. I'm no aact expert by any means, but when I brew mine for my indoor plants I go way over the strength that most people suggest. If I let my media dry out too much I'll do a watering with a wetting agent like aloe at like 10x the dilution ratio most people use, then the same process for my aact. You're not going to hurt your soil or plants by dumping microorganisms in it. But if you're loading it up with like kelp / alfalfa meal or a guano/manure you're asking for some issues if you don't dilute. But you said it was store bought, so I have no idea what they're brew method is.
> There's a lot of wiggle room in organics when you have quality stuff. Not that you can't go overboard, you most certainly can haha.


That's understandable, the stuff I got from the store is different than what I brewed myself. I used compost that I composted myself and threw in molasses a handful of jones tomato/bloom nutes just trying to get rid of it but don't want to waist it than I'll be using more organic single nutes for my soul and teas.


----------



## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

I love compost because the plants take what they need. Never a burnt tip. I am still looking for a good bloom booster for organic growing. The kelp meal in large doses may be the key. I love happy mistakes


----------



## testiclees (Aug 17, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Stupid question but when you guys brew some teas are you guy watering down the tea before water the plants with it? I made some on Thursday its been bubbling ever since. New to making teas, this tea I get for free from a local garden store they have you mix 2.5 ounces per 1gallon of water I put more of the tea I brewed in the water than that but I was wondering what you guys did?


bro take a look at microbemans page. he works a lot with teas and he documents his brews with microscopy. If you cant analyse your teas after brewing youre kinda brewing blind. I made the suggestion because usually the brew time is less than 48hrs. There is loads of tea discussion by very knowledgeable folks at The Logical Gardener.


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

I hate to post this here but i trust you all the most with the direction im heading... 

so i'm trying to stay away from the bottled nutes i have remaining (age old) and been successful in that for the most part with this run of plants. this plant has only been given 2 age old feedings at the lowest recommend dosage, one in veg with grow, and one time in flower with bloom (the rest of the time mostly just plain water). for the last 12-14 days i've been rotating waterings aloe, coconut, kelp + humic acid(neither are age old), but i fear she is getting a little N deficient. thought maybe the EWC in my soil mix would get her through flower but it's not looking like it. 

pot is 4 gal full, plant has been in pot for 5 weeks (at day 21 of flower today). soil blend 20% EWC, 20% Coco, 40% peat, 20% pearlite with dolomite lime added 1/8cup per cubic foot. 1cup of azomite/cuft. I have 0-16-0 bone char, oyster shell, and kelp meal mixed in at 1/4cup/cuft. topdressed a K boost @ 1/2tsp per plant a few days ago but she seemed a bit yellow before i even did that. the cooking time for the soil was the 2 weeks in sat in the veg room lol!! i know this is not good but i am learning as i go the do's and don'ts. 

Soil Ph is 6.8 the day after i water (via bluelab soil pen). watering generally every 2-3 days and i'm not drenching them to the point of major run off anymore because i should have minimal to no chemical salts in this container anymore. just watering half the pot and coming back a bit later and do the other half of the watering. feel like i am wasting so much with the run off technique (or lack of technique  )

To me both the plants seem really happy with the leaves praying and what not but i know if i dont do something she'll suffer by the end of bloom. I know my soil mix is missing some nitrogen and i'm a little light on the OM, so i'm thinking of topdressing some EWC and feeding a tea of EWC, this boogie brew i recieved as a free sample. and hoping i can use my homemade maple syrup as the sugar source but i'll go get the unsulfured molasses if necessary. What else should i include in this tea? I'm trying to stay away from the guanos and manure. i have some alfalfa meal but ive read to not use it past the beginning stages of bloom... thanks to those who are willing to help a desperate guy keep away from these bottles i have laying around!


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## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

Kelp meal and fish hydrolysate.


----------



## Joedank (Aug 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I love compost because the plants take what they need. Never a burnt tip. I am still looking for a good bloom booster for organic growing. The kelp meal in large doses may be the key. I love happy mistakes



i use budswell sometimes ... it is tested for pathogens but the EWC they make is not "orgainc??" i guess it became unlisted in cali . 
anyone know why??


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## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

Very strict guidelines here. 

I used the MOAB synthetic from Mad Farmer and it produced twice as much resin and flower sites on the Mulanje in the compost pile. I am just looking for the same results from an organic source.

I can get good K from banana peels but I don't know how they were grown. P I can get from molasses, right? 

I just want something that is fast that I can topdress with when the bud sites start forming.


----------



## Joedank (Aug 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Very strict guidelines here.
> 
> I used the MOAB synthetic from Mad Farmer and it produced twice as much resin and flower sites on the Mulanje in the compost pile. I am just looking for the same results from an organic source.
> 
> ...


bud swell works better than MOAB IMO... my buddy ran moab i ran bud swell . mine were more resinous and flavorful. bigger to but diffrent strains . i use it with a citric acid and corn sst ...lol... budswell is a topdess...


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Kelp meal and fish hydrolysate.


http://www.organicallydone.com/content/organic-fish-29-3-03
will this suffice? it looks like it would to me... they also have one with kelp mixed in, but i have the liquid kelp from them already. i also have the kelp meal they offer.


----------



## Joedank (Aug 17, 2015)

Joedank said:


> bud swell works better than MOAB IMO... my buddy ran moab i ran bud swell . mine were more resinous and flavorful. bigger to but diffrent strains . i use it with a citric acid and corn sst ...lol... budswell is a topdess...


feel like i should say i in no way suggest that a well build soil needs anything but mycos (glomus irt.),love, and water....


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## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

I use this:







and this:








Cheers,
Mo


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## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

i saw the neptunes on amazon but the Organically Done was what i had close by. i didnt feel like overnighting it. to me this Organically Done company seems legit but we all know how that can be... They are michigan based as well, which is my home state so i'm happy supporting them for now. I will try the Neptunes though! 

Gonna get this brew going in a few. This is what I am thinking... any input would be helpful.

4 gallon brew from which i will make 12 total gal of tea... gonna feed some outdoor stuff too 

1/2cup EWC
20ml fish
4tbsp molassas
3tbsp kelp meal
some of the boogie brew free sample i got
2-4tsp SEA90


----------



## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

An fish packing plants near you? Fish guts, heads, and bones are the best!

Bay Port Fish Company?


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> An fish packing plants near you? Fish guts, heads, and bones are the best!
> 
> Bay Port Fish Company?


i would have to drive a bit to get to any of them. in what way do you compost those products? I am a fisherman myself and will be catching my share of salmon here in a month or two.


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## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

Farm supply and landscaping supply may also have what you need. @hyroot located a place near me that has bagged worm casting for a great price (I make my own now). It is a landscape supply store. They have bulk compost for $60 a yard! I am going to cover my screen room floor with that stuff when I am ready to grow in there.


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## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

Burry them in a pile of mulch and some starter soil or Espoma compost starter. Cover it with some 1/4 inch hardware cloth (metal screen) to keep out pests. You can also cook the bits in a stew and freeze it. Bury it in the soil you want to plant in the spring.

The Neptunes Harvest smells like campbell's alphabet soup. Alaska fish smells like rotten fish puked up by a sea lion. The smell gets stuck in your nose like decomp.


----------



## hyroot (Aug 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Farm supply and landscaping supply may also have what you need. @hyroot located a place near me that has bagged worm casting for a great price (I make my own now). It is a landscape supply store. They have bulk compost for $60 a yard! I am going to cover my screen room floor with that stuff when I am ready to grow in there.



Hydro scape. They have locations all over california..


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i saw the neptunes on amazon but the Organically Done was what i had close by. i didnt feel like overnighting it. to me this Organically Done company seems legit but we all know how that can be... They are michigan based as well, which is my home state so i'm happy supporting them for now. I will try the Neptunes though!
> 
> Gonna get this brew going in a few. This is what I am thinking... any input would be helpful.
> 
> ...


This is good stuff. Used it many many times and the plants love it.


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> This is good stuff. Used it many many times and the plants love it.
> 
> View attachment 3481176


sweet. i got just the fish one, because i already have the kelp!! do you feed it straight from the bottle or add it to teas while they brew?


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I love compost because the plants take what they need. Never a burnt tip. I am still looking for a good bloom booster for organic growing. The kelp meal in large doses may be the key. I love happy mistakes


let me know what you think about this. I'm sure you're looking more for something you can source yourself naturally/cheaply but thought i'd suggest it to you. i've been adding it 1/2tsp per plant at transplant a week before flower and at week three of flower in topdress... but i was wondering about brewing it with a tea at week 3 instead! I think i've been seeing onset of flowers better than i was before fwiw.

http://organicallydone.com/content/bloom-boost-potassium-charge


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> sweet. i got just the fish one, because i already have the kelp!! do you feed it straight from the bottle or add it to teas while they brew?


I guess it depends what you're brewing. I like to keep compost teas separate from nutrient teas. I don't own an expensive microscope, so it's really guess work as to what helps or hinders microbial multiplication in an ACT. EWC and molasses is all I use for a compost tea.

I just add a couple tablespoons of that fish/kelp product to my sprayer and drench the soil.


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## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

This looks awesome:

http://www.organicallydone.com/content/tomatoes-vegetables-4-5-4









> *Derived from:* alfalfa meal, bone char, colloidal rock phosphate, feather meal, fishbone meal, fish meal, greensand, humic acids, sea kelp, sulphate of potash, worm castings


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 17, 2015)

Mohican said:


> This looks awesome:
> 
> http://www.organicallydone.com/content/tomatoes-vegetables-4-5-4



I have used a bunch of their products. Very impressed with them and easy to find in the mitten.

Hope you're well Mo!


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## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

yeah i have a bunch of their stuff... The Organic Easy is what i'm using in my vegetable containers and a couple of my beds. i just use EWC and the Organic Easy mixed into some Sunshine #4 mix and boom, nice looking stuff in a container with just water!!


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## Mohican (Aug 17, 2015)

I am doing better every day @stowandgrow 

Is that product only available online?


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 17, 2015)

Prayer Tower from Bodhi


P-


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 17, 2015)

I buy their products in stores around me in MI

@st0wandgrow I did 1tbsp of the Fish and 1tbsp of the Kelp in 4.5 gal and stuck the air stones in there til tomorrow. don't know if the O2 will aide in a nutrient feed like that with just the kelp and fish. should i add anything else or just go with that for those products in particular


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> I buy their products in stores around me in MI
> 
> @st0wandgrow I did 1tbsp of the Fish and 1tbsp of the Kelp in 4.5 gal and stuck the air stones in there til tomorrow. don't know if the O2 will aide in a nutrient feed like that with just the kelp and fish. should i add anything else or just go with that for those products in particular


Sounds good!


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## Rrog (Aug 17, 2015)

What a great thread! So glad to see so many kind folks assembled here


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## Joedank (Aug 18, 2015)

@stowandgrow you tried this recipe from lumperdawgz ....
The meal/cake can also be used to make an effective tea during those times of the grow/flower cycle where using the neem oil may not be the best option. 1/2 cup of neem seed meal/cake and 1/4 cup of kelp meal along with 1 *tsp.* of liquid silica into 5 gallons of water and then bubbled/brewed for 18 - 24 hours. This can be used to irrigate the plants as well as applying as a foliar spray...

sounds cool if needed. tomaters and squash are showing bug damage ... lol


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 18, 2015)

Rrog said:


> What a great thread! So glad to see so many kind folks assembled here


I see you've been dredging through the depths of the politics section lately. You feelin ok Rrog? lol

I rarely go there anymore. What a shit show! Nice to see you around these parts buddy!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 18, 2015)

Joedank said:


> @stowandgrow you tried this recipe from lumperdawgz ....
> The meal/cake can also be used to make an effective tea during those times of the grow/flower cycle where using the neem oil may not be the best option. 1/2 cup of neem seed meal/cake and 1/4 cup of kelp meal along with 1 *tsp.* of liquid silica into 5 gallons of water and then bubbled/brewed for 18 - 24 hours. This can be used to irrigate the plants as well as applying as a foliar spray...
> 
> sounds cool if needed. tomaters and squash are showing bug damage ... lol


I have not. Sounds good though!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Aug 18, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Prayer Tower from Bodhi
> View attachment 3481249
> 
> P-


That is beautiful P! I've been debating on what Bodhi strains to pick up for a while now. How do the effects from smoking treat you?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Aug 18, 2015)

I've been thinking about my soil mix and I've realized that I have relatively zilch for p and k in my soil. The only sources of it come from my kelp, molasses when I water with it once in a blue moon or after a grower-error drought, and whatever is in the different compost sources I've added over time.
I see a lot of people with deficiencies or trying to preemptively fight them in bloom, but I haven't ran into that at all, even with water only for half of bloom on occasions. 
Is this because of how heavy handed I am with kelp teas and topdressing with vermicompost?


----------



## Mohican (Aug 18, 2015)

Yes!


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Aug 18, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Yes!


Awesome! I live by kiss unless I know for sure that I understand every angle of whatever complexity I'm trying to handle.

Speaking of Kelp, what's everyones favorite brand? I'm a fan of Down To Earth.


----------



## Mohican (Aug 18, 2015)

Dr Earth was the only one my local farm store had at the time. The worms love it!

It is about two years old and got soaked when my outdoor container filled with 3 inches of water. There was also a box of soil acidifier. I don't know how much of that leached into the kelp meal. The storage container reeked! Luckily all of the other products stored in that container were in plastic pouches.

Life's little surprises


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Aug 18, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Dr Earth was the only one my local farm store had at the time. The worms love it!
> 
> It is about two years old and got soaked when my outdoor container filled with 3 inches of water. There was also a box of soil acidifier. I don't know how much of that leached into the kelp meal. The storage container reeked! Luckily all of the other products stored in that container were in plastic pouches.
> 
> Life's little surprises


Life is lovely like that a lot of times.
One of my cats recently decided the 45 gallons of soil from my last run was more suitable as a bathroom than their multiple litter boxes. Even worse, it wasn't little kitty turds.. Smells like urea and ammonia..


----------



## Mohican (Aug 18, 2015)




----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 18, 2015)

just found out my local guy is carrying rice hulls! stoked about that. gonna do pumice/rice hull/bio char mix for aeration, heavier on the pumice since i read the rice hulls are eventually breaking down for some folks. thinking 20% pumice, and split the rest between the char and rice hulls.


----------



## Rrog (Aug 18, 2015)

Anyone looked at GrowStone? Like pumice but made from recycled glass. I'm going that way

Biochar absolutely for aeration. Leaf mold also


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 18, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Anyone looked at GrowStone? Like pumice but made from recycled glass. I'm going that way


i just saw that stuff up in the grow store... maybe i'll look into that. sounds like the stuff pumice is made outta


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 18, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Life is lovely like that a lot of times.
> One of my cats recently decided the 45 gallons of soil from my last run was more suitable as a bathroom than their multiple litter boxes. Even worse, it wasn't little kitty turds.. Smells like urea and ammonia..


Haha! To be perfectly honest I can't stand cats. My wife and kids have been pestering me for years to get one, but I'm standing firm!

My ferocious dog would probably eat it anyway.


----------



## Rrog (Aug 18, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i just saw that stuff up in the grow store... maybe i'll look into that. sounds like the stuff pumice is made outta


I like the recycled aspect of it. Also, being glass, it won't ever break down


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 18, 2015)

lol yeah cats are a PITA when it comes to grows. they love to chew the leaves, and i have one that loved to pee in the soil of a harvested pot if i left it laying around in the open (glad i never recycled soil then or i'd have been super pissed! no pun intended). Not to mention they'll just climb up my tents and all over and ruin stuff (that's why i have a door to the basement now!). yeah they're a pain! I love dogs and they only have to mess up something once to learn not to do it again lol.


----------



## ShLUbY (Aug 18, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I like the recycled aspect of it. Also, being glass, it won't ever break down


yeah im a sucker for green products that actually fulfill their purpose. my old lady says i dont throw anything away lol. i just hang on to it until i know that there is no use!

Hey is there anyone out there who has a product that is just as good as EM-1 for a lesser dollar? I was turned on to the EM-1 by John Kohler of growingyourgreens.com and i haven't bought it yet but i'm placing and order to amazon for a bunch of shit today and i'd like to hear some experience before i buy.

Honestly, he's what got me on the kick of growing cannabis organically (i thought i had been lol but boy was i wrong!) before i even knew that people were growing with living soil beds/containers indoors. here i thought i was ahead of the game as i was planning on switching the cannabis garden over to organic no-till! Then I found you all here at RIU ROLS thread!


----------



## st0wandgrow (Aug 18, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah im a sucker for green products that actually fulfill their purpose. my old lady says i dont throw anything away lol. i just hang on to it until i know that there is no use!
> 
> Hey is there anyone out there who has a product that is just as good as EM-1 for a lesser dollar? I was turned on to the EM-1 by John Kohler of growingyourgreens.com and i haven't bought it yet but i'm placing and order to amazon for a bunch of shit today and i'd like to hear some experience before i buy.
> 
> Honestly, he's what got me on the kick of growing cannabis organically (i thought i had been lol but boy was i wrong!) before i even knew that people were growing with living soil beds/containers indoors. here i thought i was ahead of the game as i was planning on switching the cannabis garden over to organic no-till! Then I found you all here at RIU ROLS thread!


There's a thread in the organic section on making em-1. It's just a white rice rinse, add milk, skim the curds, then add molasses as a food stock for the lacto microbes.

Look through the archived threads and you'll find it. MjMama started the thread


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Aug 18, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Prayer Tower from Bodhi
> View attachment 3481249
> 
> P-


This might be the wrong place to ask, but I have been searching for info on Prayer Tower! My seeds sprouted out of my root cubes and I put them in soil last night... Have you had this long enough to do anykind of a report?
I also got Silver mnt, dream beaver, and SSDD. I hear plenty about beaver and ssdd.


----------



## AllDayToker (Aug 18, 2015)

Hello again,

Trying to think of a good flowering tea, my ladies are look hungry. I was thinking 1/4 cup alfalfa meal and 3/4 cups kelp meal in about 4 gallons of water, bubble for 24hrs, then water as usual.

What do you guys think? Any suggestions on adding anything? I try to keep it simple so any thoughts are welcome.


----------



## daybreaker (Aug 18, 2015)

Lemon Penetration.The giggle weed.The man im stoned with a big ass grin weed.FREEBIE!!!!


----------



## Pattahabi (Aug 18, 2015)

MustangStudFarm said:


> This might be the wrong place to ask, but I have been searching for info on Prayer Tower! My seeds sprouted out of my root cubes and I put them in soil last night... Have you had this long enough to do anykind of a report?
> I also got Silver mnt, dream beaver, and SSDD. I hear plenty about beaver and ssdd.


Hi MSF! There are different breedings of prayer tower. The one I have is with the sativa lemon thai. There is also an indica. That is my forth pheno I'm flowering now. So far there has been a decent amount of variety. Overall, it is very frosty, smells great, on some phenos (the last one inparticular) I can really taste and feel the thai influence. I definitely like this one - thus growing out four phenos, some staying in the garden for multiple runs. (there is a pict of the heavy thai one a few pages back I think - lots of frost)

I have also flowered out three phenos of the silver mountian. Two were really excellent yielders, while the third threw out some pretty serious frost with smaller buds, still not a 'bad' yielder. They all maintained the silver haze smell, but took on more of a body/knock down stone rather than the heady silver haze buzz. The smaller budded plant even more so than the other two. Both super easy to grow, no hermies, mutants, or any other bs like that.

Peace!

P-


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## ShLUbY (Aug 18, 2015)

@daybreaker Looks dank, my friend. 

I just recently got a cut from a friend of TGA Jacks Cleaner 2, supposed to be a great lemon haze. fwiw the guy who we got the cut from said he stopped growing it because people didn't want it anymore; they said it was too potent lol. SO i'm kinda stoked about it! Just got roots on it in the cloner. hitting soil tomorrow probably.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 18, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Hello again,
> 
> Trying to think of a good flowering tea, my ladies are look hungry. I was thinking 1/4 cup alfalfa meal and 3/4 cups kelp meal in about 4 gallons of water, bubble for 24hrs, then water as usual.
> 
> What do you guys think? Any suggestions on adding anything? I try to keep it simple so any thoughts are welcome.


what do you think they look hungry for?

if you're at 3 weeks or past i've read that alfalfa is not what you want to be adding to teas as it can prolong the flowering process. however i recall reading a post where a well respected user (can't remember who at the time) was using it through flower with no noticeable differences.

I have some plants at 21 days that were a little N hungry and @st0wandgrow recommended some fish hydrolysate (2.9-3.0-.03) and kelp (0-0-1) for a nutrient tea. Since both were in liquid form i just bubbled 1tbsp fish and 1 tbsp liquid kelp in ~4.5 gal for 12 hours or so and watered. the next tea i think i'm going to make is EWC, some black topsoil from under my grass (please tell me if this is bad and/or sketchy but i would think it would have good microbes in it!), and molasses. just to get some fresh microbes in the soil. st0wandgrow recommended that he keeps teas to feed plants separate from teas that feed the soil, so it just depends on what you're looking to do with your tea.

Edit: i've seen people recommend cutting back on the kelp to about half the amount you suggested but the experienced guys will let you know.


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## AllDayToker (Aug 18, 2015)

St0w had taught me plenty, he's a good man.

I use a lot of the same methods as him, including the ewc and molasses to boost microbe colonization.

I also keep my microbe teas and nutrient teas separate, only makes sense. All purpose teas would work of course, but it's more beneficial to keep each separated.

Just making sure a high kelp, low alfalfa ratio would be alright for midflower. I have Fish E if needed but figured the alfalfa would get the job done.


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## Joedank (Aug 18, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah im a sucker for green products that actually fulfill their purpose. my old lady says i dont throw anything away lol. i just hang on to it until i know that there is no use!
> 
> Hey is there anyone out there who has a product that is just as good as EM-1 for a lesser dollar? I was turned on to the EM-1 by John Kohler of growingyourgreens.com and i haven't bought it yet but i'm placing and order to amazon for a bunch of shit today and i'd like to hear some experience before i buy.
> 
> Honestly, he's what got me on the kick of growing cannabis organically (i thought i had been lol but boy was i wrong!) before i even knew that people were growing with living soil beds/containers indoors. here i thought i was ahead of the game as i was planning on switching the cannabis garden over to organic no-till! Then I found you all here at RIU ROLS thread!


kick ass EM-1 is awsome . i am buying it for my laundry and life in general .... i stumbled across a link to making it yourself here : http://www.infrc.or.jp/english/KNF_Data_Base_Web/PDF KNF Conf Data/C5-10-198.pdf


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## ShLUbY (Aug 20, 2015)

Just a question... it seemed to be pretty logical in hypothesis so maybe you all already do this....

Started EWC + Boogie Brew AACT 24 hrs ago. decided i wanted to stretch it out more so I took RO water of equal proportion (4gal) and added 1.5 tbsp unsul. molasses to it, then combined the two 4 gal into one 8 gal mixture. i should give this mixture about 12 more hours before i water i would think. just trying to let microbes multiply more with the new food and water. tea had a nice head and lots of O2 going in there. thanks


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## Joedank (Aug 20, 2015)

love living soil!!!


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## ShLUbY (Aug 20, 2015)

So i'm about half way through this whole thread. taken in way too much info but its good for me!

This has led me to my first run of rols experiments.... if someone has done this already could you please post your results or point me to a page where i can find them. I remember seeing Cann had something similar but i'll have to go back and look.

All will be no-till and same mix of soil, 15 gal containers. they will all be the same strain and i will keep them to the same size as best as possible before putting them in flower. then i'll just clean the bottoms out and let them do their thing.

container #1 will be water only for control
container #2 will be given AACTs, nutrients teas, aloe vera, coconut water, and plain water, ect.
container #3 will be given the same as container #2 but i am going to Ph the liquids.

I'd like to do three cycles through the containers before I make a final judgment.

would anyone change anything? or have another container with a different test. i was gonna do one with a coco base....


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## ShLUbY (Aug 20, 2015)

DANKSWAG said:


> HeadTreep,
> 
> I've read Teaming with Microbes, Building Soils Naturally. Have not read One Straw Revolution, but will look it up, any other suggestions. I've been so busying mixing and blending soils for a grower $$! Busy getting my own organic farm business of the ground as well
> 
> ...




Dank, i know this is old. Japanese Knotweed. don't know if you ever figured it out. highly invasive.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 22, 2015)

so what is the plant telling me when the serrated leaf tips are pointing up?? if someone says magnesium deficiency i'm going to digitally slap them. lol I've heard they're "praying for magnesium" which i think is a load of bull. it's only the serrated edges. the leaf itself does not curl into itself. i've had this happening for the last few runs and i just cant figure it out. i know that once the leaf does it, it does not change its form (as with anything like N claw and what not). thank goodness i'm mixing a batch of soil next week to start my first run of ROLS down the road.


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## Mohican (Aug 22, 2015)

The serrations give the leaf more edge length/area to evaporate water. When they are up and forming a cup I think they are trying to catch water.


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## Scotch089 (Aug 22, 2015)

Low humidity


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## ShLUbY (Aug 22, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Low humidity


low humidity is not my problem. i am sure of that lol. its the middle of summer in MI, and i struggle to get humidity below 50% even when lights are off. maybe the humidity/temp VPD though.



Mohican said:


> The serrations give the leaf more edge length/area to evaporate water. When they are up and forming a cup I think they are trying to catch water.


they're not to the point of cupping... its just the tips of those serrated edges. maybe they were trying to transpire more H2O? I can't wait till i have my VPD in the correct range all the time. i'm wondering if it's related to that in some way... 
i'll take a pic in a bit and post it up.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 22, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> so what is the plant telling me when the serrated leaf tips are pointing up?? if someone says magnesium deficiency i'm going to digitally slap them. lol I've heard they're "praying for magnesium" which i think is a load of bull. it's only the serrated edges. the leaf itself does not curl into itself. i've had this happening for the last few runs and i just cant figure it out. i know that once the leaf does it, it does not change its form (as with anything like N claw and what not). thank goodness i'm mixing a batch of soil next week to start my first run of ROLS down the road.


How's the temperature at the canopy? Are leaves lower down doing this too or just the top leaves closest to the light?

I've had leaves do this too and I concluded that it was from heat stress.


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## hyroot (Aug 22, 2015)

Yeah, leaf edges flaring up is the plants way of cooling down like when a dog is panting. Gets some a/c going in there.


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## DIY42088 (Aug 23, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> so what is the plant telling me when the serrated leaf tips are pointing up?? if someone says magnesium deficiency i'm going to digitally slap them. lol I've heard they're "praying for magnesium" which i think is a load of bull. it's only the serrated edges. the leaf itself does not curl into itself. i've had this happening for the last few runs and i just cant figure it out. i know that once the leaf does it, it does not change its form (as with anything like N claw and what not). thank goodness i'm mixing a batch of soil next week to start my first run of ROLS down the road.


Does it look anything like this? Only thing I changed recently was adding a 125w cfl for side lighting and this happened only to one of the 3 plants in the box and they are all the same height and strain... Kinda strange, I automatically assumed heat stress but wouldn't it happen to all the plants?


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## ShLUbY (Aug 23, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> How's the temperature at the canopy? Are leaves lower down doing this too or just the top leaves closest to the light?
> I've had leaves do this too and I concluded that it was from heat stress.





hyroot said:


> Yeah, leaf edges flaring up is the plants way of cooling down like when a dog is panting. Gets some a/c going in there.


yeah i think you guys may be right. leaves in the canopy were in areas of 82 +/- a degree. was getting warm down there when i wasn't running the central air for the house. now i have an AC unit just for the room so 80 is the top temp in there now, but typically has been 78 the last 7-10 days. i know once the leaves do that they generally never correct IME. We'll see if the next round does it!


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 23, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i think you guys may be right. leaves in the canopy were in areas of 82 +/- a degree. was getting warm down there when i wasn't running the central air for the house. now i have an AC unit so it 80 is the top temp in there now, but typically has been 78 the last 7-10 days. i know once the leaves do that they generally never correct IME. We'll see if the next round does it!


That'll do it! Some strains are cool with heat, other freak out above 78, most strains I run tend to show signs of stress above 82 or so, though negligible like what you're seeing.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 23, 2015)

if a plant is nitrogen deficient, will the yellow leaves eventually turn green again, or is the yellowing permanent?


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 24, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> if a plant is nitrogen deficient, will the yellow leaves eventually turn green again, or is the yellowing permanent?


I feel like because nitrogen is a mobile nutrient it could come back. But in my experience once a leaf yellows you can only stop it from getting more yellow. It does not become green again.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 24, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I feel like because nitrogen is a mobile nutrient it could come back. But in my experience once a leaf yellows you can only stop it from getting more yellow. It does not become green again.


ok. the buds seem like they are developing fine. they are 4 weeks today. i feel that the yellowing has gotten worse on one plant. the other is faring a little better. Starting to see some brown spotting on the worser of the two. i'll throw up a pic in a little while. On a good note i have three 9 pound hammer coming down today and they look really nice. purples coming through on that one beautifully. oh yeah 7 week finisher to boot. fastest i've ever experienced.


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## Joedank (Aug 24, 2015)

One unexpected finding of Douds' work at Rodale "is that mycorrhizae can be used to increase the yield of crops even in soils that are very high in phosphorous." Some of the soils at the Rodale Farm which have been heavily composted, Douds notes, "have available P in excess of 300 parts/million"--well above the level at which mycorrhizal responses are typically seen, around 20-50 ppm available P. "The generalization would be that P as high as 300 would be a situation in which the plant can take up all the P that it needs by itself without relying on the mycorrhizal fungi." Douds believes that at high nutrient levels, some of the other benefits of MF--enhanced disease resistance, improved soil aggregation and better water relations--could be showing an effect.

interesting read about growing your own mycos...
http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml


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## ShLUbY (Aug 26, 2015)

Just made my last purchase for building a proper soil for ROLS. Next week i'll be mixing soil!

Where do you get just sphagnum at? I always see it with the damn pearlite in it.


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## drekoushranada (Aug 26, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Just made my last purchase for building a proper soil for ROLS. Next week i'll be mixing soil!
> 
> Where do you get just sphagnum at? I always see it with the damn pearlite in it.


Casa DE pot or Lowe's. Heck plenty of big home improvement stores have them.


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## ShLUbY (Aug 26, 2015)

cool. I always had a hydro store to shop at lol. I figured someone had to have it around.

Here are the plants (black domino) I've been having some N deficiency with. They are now at 30 days. The yellow leaves have not gained any green back at all. I took off about a dozen leaves off of each plant today that came off easily. the ones that had some tug still I left on even though they are yellow. I think the buds are developing on schedule and I would like to say the problem has been taken care of, but the plants just won't be able to photosynthesize at their full potential. I've given them fish hydrolysate, a boogie brew compost tea, some liquid kelp, coconut water, aloe (not in any particular order). They seem to be relatively happy, leaves are still praying even after a good watering right before these pics.


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 28, 2015)

The Tobacco Mosaic Virus:

"Tobacco mosaic virus (TMV) is a positive-sense single stranded RNA virus that infects a wide range of plants, especially tobaccoand other members of the family Solanaceae. The infection causes characteristic patterns, such as "mosaic"-like mottling and discoloration on the leaves (hence the name)." -Wiki

My friend just threw out every single one of his plants because it got a hold of his entire room. Now I'm watching mine like a hawk because we've shared cuts, etc.

Anyone have any personal experience with it?


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 28, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> The Tobacco Mosaic Virus:
> 
> "Tobacco mosaic virus (TMV) is a positive-sense single stranded RNA virus that infects a wide range of plants, especially tobaccoand other members of the family Solanaceae. The infection causes characteristic patterns, such as "mosaic"-like mottling and discoloration on the leaves (hence the name)." -Wiki
> 
> ...


Is he sure it was TMV?? There's some debate as to whether cannabis can be infected by it or not. I don't know one way or the other. I've heard that the symptoms from russet mites is very similar to TMV so it could wrongly attributed.

Either way, tossing the plants might not be a bad move. That sucks though


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## Mohican (Aug 28, 2015)

@Joedank - I can't find the place where they tell you how to make mycorrhizae.


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## Joedank (Aug 28, 2015)

Mohican said:


> @Joedank - I can't find the place where they tell you how to make mycorrhizae.


http://newfarm.rodaleinstitute.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0903/daviddouds.shtml

at the bottom he uses bahia grass with a culture of local and added mycos . i am using glomulus intrdices(misnamed i heard) and carrot roots . then adding the innoculated soil as a top dress hope that helps ... 
i also have a link to making a boiled rice culture of local mycos captured from the air in a old growth forest (think sequioas)
then allowed to do there thing in your soil


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## Mohican (Aug 28, 2015)

Where do I get the inoculant? I saw something similar for kashi. Have you tried any of the oatmeal versions?


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## Rrog (Aug 28, 2015)

Myco is in the air we breathe. When roots show up, so do they. Why "inoculate?"


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 28, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Is he sure it was TMV?? There's some debate as to whether cannabis can be infected by it or not. I don't know one way or the other. I've heard that the symptoms from russet mites is very similar to TMV so it could wrongly attributed.
> 
> Either way, tossing the plants might not be a bad move. That sucks though


We'll never know 100%. We still have to very much worry about stealth so lab testing isn't an option. But after days of looking through pages of pictures of other plants affected by it and reading the different Studies on it from Google's "scholar" search or whatever , we're fairly certain. Definitely a downer but rather safe than sorry. I have heard the argument that cannabis is unaffected, but I've haven't seen anything saying anything either which way myself either. Well, anything grounded in science that is lol.


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 28, 2015)

I would assume for the same reason as why you'd use an aact


Rrog said:


> Myco is in the air we breathe. When roots show up, so do they. Why "inoculate?"


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## hyroot (Aug 28, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Where do I get the inoculant? I saw something similar for kashi. Have you tried any of the oatmeal versions?





Rrog said:


> Myco is in the air we breathe. When roots show up, so do they. Why "inoculate?"



Cover crops


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## Joedank (Aug 28, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Myco is in the air we breathe. When roots show up, so do they. Why "inoculate?"


why does korean gardening call for it ? that is where the rice method came from, to add a fungal aspect . they say the fungal aspect is hard to cultivate ... lol...


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## Rrog (Aug 28, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Myco is in the air we breathe. When roots show up, so do they


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## Scotch089 (Aug 28, 2015)

What parts of marigolds and lambs quarters can I use to hang and dry for amendments? Stems, leaves, flowers....


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## Joedank (Aug 28, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Myco is in the air we breathe. When roots show up, so do they. Why "inoculate?"


so if i have a problem with my citrus tree or avocado tree i should disregard advice from arborists to innoculate ?? i should "trust the air" lol. to bring the needed phos and nitro fixing microbes in quantum growth light and glomulus ???


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## Joedank (Aug 28, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> What parts of marigolds and lambs quarters can I use to hang and dry for amendments? Stems, leaves, flowers....


lambs quartes = all parts
marigolds tops for ground foliar at my house (if alot composted they really rock) , stems for top dressing and leaves for rabbit feed 
now find some yarrow near that lambs quarters and make a tea for plants and yourself ...


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## Rrog (Aug 29, 2015)

Joedank said:


> so if i have a problem with my citrus tree or avocado tree i should disregard advice from arborists to innoculate ?? i should "trust the air" lol. to bring the needed phos and nitro fixing microbes in quantum growth light and glomulus ???


You can do whatever you like.


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## drekoushranada (Aug 29, 2015)

I been doing research but any extra info on using a 50/50 mix of coco coir and peat in the no till? The reviews on the subject has been all over the place. I am going to order some 7 gallon smart pots and give it a run and report back with my findings. I would do 10 gallon fabric pots but those things are huge. Lol. The other ladies are in those.


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## Joedank (Aug 29, 2015)

Rrog said:


> You can do whatever you like.


your strange dude...


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## Joedank (Aug 29, 2015)

Rrog said:


> The myco is in the air, and in starter soil from around your house. A shovel full of old field soil will have it.


so you do innoculate...


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## Rrog (Aug 29, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Cover crops


Exactamundo


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## Joedank (Aug 29, 2015)

Sour d  Gg#4


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 29, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Exactamundo


Not sure if cover croppers have a problem with this. But I have found if I plant dutch white clover it attracts spider mites to my grow room. They always start on the clover. For anyone looking for a great alternative I recently switched to Yarrow and Roman chamomile as a cover crop/mulch/potency enhancer.

I have an idea of why they attract the mites. I hear people talking about how high nitrate levels in soil increases nitrate levels in leaves and can cause an increase in spider mites. I inoculated with nitrogen fixing bacteria when I planted and when I pulled the clover I had huge nodes on the roots and in the soil. I've had mite problems ever since clover and when I pulled it magically they ran. If anyone plants clover do you also have the nitrogen bacteria and/or mite problems? Would love to know why I had the troubles.


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## Rrog (Aug 30, 2015)

I always ran clover and never saw mites


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## Joedank (Aug 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Not sure if cover croppers have a problem with this. But I have found if I plant dutch white clover it attracts spider mites to my grow room. They always start on the clover. For anyone looking for a great alternative recently switched to Yarrow and Roman chamomile as a cover crop/mulch/potency enhancer.
> 
> I have an idea of why they attract the mites. I hear people talking about how high nitrate levels in soil increases nitrate levels in leaves and can cause an increase in spider mites. I inoculated with nitrogen fixing bacteria when I planted and when I pulled the clover I had huge nodes on the roots and in the soil. I've had mite problems ever since clover and when I pulled it magically they ran. If anyone plants clover do you also have the nitrogen bacteria and/or mite problems? Would love to know why I had the troubles.


many folks plant leguems as a "canary in the coal mine" for mites .
its the trees and shrubs/ houseplants harboring them .
i use crimson clover to good effect . but i will try yarrow and chammomile as i have alot of wildcrafted seed . thanks fpr the tip .
i always see mites first on clover , if i lived in a apartment i would treat my house plants with neem if they can take it ..
i know you right about the "N" attracting pests but i am not sure if its nitrites or nitrates in the nodes..lol ... innocultion REALLY helped my legumes this year the uninnoculated patch yeiled 1/2 as much.....




Rrog said:


> I always ran clover and never saw mites


are you not cover cropping anymore ?? or no growing??


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Not sure if cover croppers have a problem with this. But I have found if I plant dutch white clover it attracts spider mites to my grow room. They always start on the clover. For anyone looking for a great alternative I recently switched to Yarrow and Roman chamomile as a cover crop/mulch/potency enhancer.
> 
> I have an idea of why they attract the mites. I hear people talking about how high nitrate levels in soil increases nitrate levels in leaves and can cause an increase in spider mites. I inoculated with nitrogen fixing bacteria when I planted and when I pulled the clover I had huge nodes on the roots and in the soil. I've had mite problems ever since clover and when I pulled it magically they ran. If anyone plants clover do you also have the nitrogen bacteria and/or mite problems? Would love to know why I had the troubles.


My clovers in my aloe planters are dripping with those bastards. I've never needed neem oil until now. Never had it attract mites to cannabis planters heavy in neem and karanja meal though.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 30, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Myco is in the air we breathe. When roots show up, so do they. Why "inoculate?"


When you say myco, are you refering to mycorrhizae or just microbes in general? If you are referring to Mycorrhizae, I'd love to read about this.

Many thanks!

P-

Edit: the damn mites always go after my clover as well lol. Interesting enough, many times they never travel to the other plants. My tomato is mite free, the clover below it is covered.


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## Joedank (Aug 30, 2015)

View attachment 3489322 Clover an gg4 that container is 6 ft wide


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## Rrog (Aug 30, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> When you say myco, are you refering to mycorrhizae or just microbes in general? If you are referring to Mycorrhizae, I'd love to read about this.


BIMs are in the air everywhere. Bacteria, fungus, etc. That's how we can isolate with a simple rice water bath. Little bastards just fall in and are activated because you have them a food and water source. They'll fall all over your soil and set up shop as well. It's inevitable and unavoidable.


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 30, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I always ran clover and never saw mites


Your one lucky grower! I see them everywhere on clover. And even more frustrating the clover leaves act hydrophobic so getting a IPM spray down there is near impossible. Is yours innoculated? Care to pull a rhizome and check the nodules?


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 30, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> My clovers in my aloe planters are dripping with those bastards. I've never needed neem oil until now. Never had it attract mites to cannabis planters heavy in neem and karanja meal though.


I do notice if I topdress with neem or karanja they settle back into the clover patches. But after a week or two when the plant has used all the meals they hop right back up. It is great to see the neem and karanja do their thing on the pests though. Do you just live with the mites? Do you topdress heavy on the meals for keeping them at bay?


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 30, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> When you say myco, are you refering to mycorrhizae or just microbes in general? If you are referring to Mycorrhizae, I'd love to read about this.
> 
> Many thanks!
> 
> ...


Same experience with mites as long as the plants are happy and healthy. So I guess everyone has this problem with clover more or less.


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 30, 2015)

Joedank said:


> many folks plant leguems as a "canary in the coal mine" for mites .
> its the trees and shrubs/ houseplants harboring them .
> i use crimson clover to good effect . but i will try yarrow and chammomile as i have alot of wildcrafted seed . thanks fpr the tip .
> i always see mites first on clover , if i lived in a apartment i would treat my house plants with neem if they can take it ..
> ...


You wont regret the yarrow and chamomile. Not only do they help the plant with root exduates they also have beautiful aromas! I find myself smelling yarrow and chamomile more than I do my cannabis plants! lol

edit: you got me googling and it seems ammonium is in the nodules. It must be excess nitrogen in general that causes pests to come feast.


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## Rrog (Aug 30, 2015)

Not sure why this hasn't plagued me


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I do notice if I topdress with neem or karanja they settle back into the clover patches. But after a week or two when the plant has used all the meals they hop right back up. It is great to see the neem and karanja do their thing on the pests though. Do you just live with the mites? Do you topdress heavy on the meals for keeping them at bay?


I'm living with it currently because I'm waiting on my neem oil from bas to get here. Then I'm spraying the living hell out of them. They literally just showed up this last month. I've noticed that every yard in my area is covered with spidermites. I checked my relatives yard today and her entire yard is infested. Her clovers are dying back it's so bad; red, white, pink, doesn't matter, they're all doomed. Powdery mildew is pretty common right now too. The Midwest is hard to grow in sometimes because of stuff like this. My grandfather's garden that I help tend to already lost some heirloom tomatoes to some disease (high humidity and temps for weeks) and his raspberries are a joke this year. 12-15ft tall and only an 8th of a pound of berries so far this year off of 20 different patches. Aphids have already started to decimate his beans, which doesn't usually happen for him till the end of the season.


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 30, 2015)

Good luck with the neem. They will hide under the clover and you will never get rid of them. I have been at war for 2 straight months spraying every other day with various essential oils and neem/karanja. I always have them in my yard but thankfully nature thought of that so the predators, water, rain get them. In my room I don't have any predators only had spider mites. But they are gone! Hope you can beat them, if not get rid of that clover! lol


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## Joedank (Aug 30, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I do notice if I topdress with neem or karanja they settle back into the clover patches. But after a week or two when the plant has used all the meals they hop right back up. It is great to see the neem and karanja do their thing on the pests though. Do you just live with the mites? Do you topdress heavy on the meals for keeping them at bay?


stoked to try the yarrow and cammomille
i pull the infected clover and compost it thus using it as a "trap crop" so to speak ...


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## hyroot (Aug 30, 2015)

no mites from clover here either. I dont get how clover is hydrophoibic . It doesn't make sense. No one else has ever heard of that either. Maybe if sprayed with rain x first , I use foliars and ipm's on my clover all the time. no pests on my clover. My Rh is really low too. I don't ever see clover repelling water either. Last year I thought clover attracted white flies. Later I found that out to be wrong. It was just the time of year and the particular strain I was growing.


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## drekoushranada (Aug 31, 2015)

How tall does the chamomile get?


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> How tall does the chamomile get?


mine about 8"-24" depending on age . keep cutting the flowers and it will keep going . it has a supriseingly small root mass for a tall plant IMO


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 31, 2015)

Rh has a lot to do with it I would imagine. I haven't seen mites on my indoor clovers until my inside rh was consistently over 60%.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 31, 2015)

Rrog said:


> BIMs are in the air everywhere. Bacteria, fungus, etc. That's how we can isolate with a simple rice water bath. Little bastards just fall in and are activated because you have them a food and water source. They'll fall all over your soil and set up shop as well. It's inevitable and unavoidable.


Ok, just wanted to make sure you weren't refering to mycorrhizae. It is my understanding mycorrhizae are too big to be air bourne. I think Gil's work on BIM's is awesome. www.unconventionalfarmer.com.

Peace!

P-


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## Rrog (Aug 31, 2015)

The fungal hyphae are big for sure, but spores go airborne. I see a few mycorrhizal studies online where they had to take steps to keep their tests from being contaminated by airborne mycorrhizal spores


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 31, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> How tall does the chamomile get?


 There are two types. Roman and german. You want the roman. Roman is the shorter strain and grows to max 6 inches in my room. Takes a year to get that high though. I never have to mow it down


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 31, 2015)

So your saying high humidy is attracting mites? That would make sense because my room is always dialed in with VPD in mind. Why would they come to a place with high RH?



Midwest Weedist said:


> Rh has a lot to do with it I would imagine. I haven't seen mites on my indoor clovers until my inside rh was consistently over 60%.


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## Rrog (Aug 31, 2015)

EDIT: Curious what clovers people are experiencing probs with. 

Sorry that I missed this, but has anyone ID'd the mite?

Are we thinking that a sealed high Rh room might exacerbate this? I just checked with a buddy who I had grow clover in between grows. He's not seen any pests, and he leaves the door and window open. Again, just a closet grow

My last room was sealed, but I controlled Rh, and I had no mites. I ran clover in between grows but not during grows.

Soil inoculated with BTI, nematodes, and chitin source.

Either way, clearly the clover is a liability for some for whatever reason, and I would avoid it in my new room once it's up and running


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 31, 2015)

Rrog said:


> EDIT: Curious what clovers people are experiencing probs with.
> 
> Sorry that I missed this, but has anyone ID'd the mite?
> 
> ...


It seems to me that the clover is a great home for the mites when they happen to find the room. And once they find it they become harder to get rid of since the clover, at least for me, is so hard to spray and a great high nitrogen food source. It was the twospotted spider mite in my case.

edit: dutch white clover were in my beds


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## Rrog (Aug 31, 2015)

Anyone ID the mite?


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

I haven't messed with cover crops in a while but when I did I used a clover mix and never saw a mite. I honestly thought the cover crop thing was a waste of time for indoor container gardening, but whatever blows your hair back.


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## Rrog (Aug 31, 2015)

I'm bald...

Not much light under the canopy, so for me, clover was good to keep the plant pot active while waiting for the next plant, etcetera. Not so much as a companion plant during the Canna grow


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I'm bald...
> 
> Not much light under the canopy, so for me, clover was good to keep the plant pot active while waiting for the next plant, etcetera. Not so much as a companion plant during the Canna grow


I've just really tried to simplify things. For a while I was doing everything. It got to be too complicated, time consuming , and expensive. Now, I build my soil and keep it moist. That's it. No SST, young coconuts, aloe, cover crops, etc. Just my soil and plain water. The plants have never looked better.


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 31, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I haven't messed with cover crops in a while but when I did I used a clover mix and never saw a mite. I honestly thought the cover crop thing was a waste of time for indoor container gardening, but whatever blows your hair back.


I'm in it to replicate the diversity of nature. Plus growing your own mulch is cost efficient in my head. Nothing to loose but a lot to gain in large 30 gallon pots

Edit: and I bet you could find some benefit from an SST and Aloe. I'd bet on it!


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I'm in it to replicate the diversity of nature. Plus growing your own mulch is cost efficient in my head. Nothing to loose but a lot to gain in large 30 gallon pots
> 
> Edit: and I bet you could find some benefit from an SST and Aloe. I'd bet on it!


I've done it all. My measuring stick is the health of the plants, and the finished product. My plants are as healthy or healthier than they've ever been. Maybe with a bigger swath of soil or a large bed with several plants in it I might notice a difference, but in my 10 gallon containers it was a waste of time.

I think these are pretty healthy..


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

Maybe I'm alone in thinking like this, but to me organics should be simple and inexpensive. There are no SST's, coconut water, etc in nature. It's all about the compost IMO. Get that right and the plants will excel in spite of whatever else it is we're doing.

Leaf mold/coco coir/peat, home made vermicompost, and the usual amendments. I don't see the need for anything beyond that. Not to say that the other stuff will hurt anything, I just don't find that the juice is worth the squeeze. I have 3 young kids, and I'm self employed. I really don't have the time to be brewing up teas and driving all over the place sourcing ingredients. Simple is what I'm after, and it seems to be working well.


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

Rrog said:


> The fungal hyphae are big for sure, but spores go airborne. I see a few mycorrhizal studies online where they had to take steps to keep their tests from being contaminated by airborne mycorrhizal spores


man you zen approch leaves alot to be desired...
this may be true for some fruiting bodies in damp areas...but glomus and others are pretty rare in nature hence there value ...
thank you for calling him out on that bullshit @Pattahabi . in such a nice way too...
i use mycos for the estamated 30% yeild increase and cuz with cover crops inccoulatiuon lasts forever


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Maybe I'm alone in thinking like this, but to me organics should be simple and inexpensive. There are no SST's, coconut water, etc in nature. It's all about the compost IMO. Get that right and the plants will excel in spite of whatever else it is we're doing.
> 
> Leaf mold/coco coir/peat, home made vermicompost, and the usual amendments. I don't see the need for anything beyond that. Not to say that the other stuff will hurt anything, I just don't find that the juice is worth the squeeze. I have 3 young kids, and I'm self employed. I really don't have the time to be brewing up teas and driving all over the place sourcing ingredients. Simple is what I'm after, and it seems to be working well.


gosh i hope someday i can feel this way . one hit of guano top dress and i go shoooooot that went BOOM and i am making teas again thinking i am "helping the plant " i am working tward a 'COMPLETE" vermicompost but it takes good compost food for them to make it IMO...


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

Joedank said:


> man you zen approch leaves alot to be desired...
> this may be true for some fruiting bodies in damp areas...but glomus and others are pretty rare in nature hence there value ...
> thank you for calling him out on that bullshit @Pattahabi . in such a nice way too...
> i use mycos for the estamated 30% yeild increase and cuz with cover crops inccoulatiuon lasts forever


I think it depends on circumstance Joe. I haven't researched whether the myco spores are airborne, so I won't comment on that, but adding mycorrhizal spores to the root zone isn't a necessity IMO. The main role they play is to colonize roots and spread out helping the plant access nutrients from a large area. In a 10 gallon container I feel pretty confident that the plant can access what I've put in there all on it's own. For someone like you growing in huge containers in a greenhouse, or in the ground outdoors, I can see the benefit. For me, not so much.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

Joedank said:


> gosh i hope someday i can feel this way . one hit of guano top dress and i go shoooooot that went BOOM and i am making teas again thinking i am "helping the plant " i am working tward a 'COMPLETE" vermicompost but it takes good compost food for them to make it IMO...


You and I are doing two different things. Like I mentioned above, you are growing trees. I'm growing tiny plants in comparison. If I were in your shoes I might have a different outlook.


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I think it depends on circumstance Joe. I haven't researched whether the myco spores are airborne, so I won't comment on that, but adding mycorrhizal spores to the root zone isn't a necessity IMO. The main role they play is to colonize roots and spread out helping the plant access nutrients from a large area. In a 10 gallon container I feel pretty confident that the plant can access what I've put in there all on it's own. For someone like you growing in huge containers in a greenhouse, or in the ground outdoors, I can see the benefit. For me, not so much.


that was what i thought until i read that rodale report . the fruiting bodies are mushrooms so the spores you put in only "grow bigger" if they fruit it is really cool and yea they can REALLY fly but in 8 yrs thats only happened once to me. the studies with basil and the oil increases really inspired me to invest in "growing" hype as much as i can . The Koren farming idea that "good" soil has 300hyphe per slide and "great" soil tons more ... i am on a mission to get fungus all over my roots and family as we are fueled by them ....


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> You and I are doing two different things. Like I mentioned above, you are growing trees. I'm growing tiny plants in comparison. If I were in your shoes I might have a different outlook.


i got very few leaves here if i had yards of leafmold adding hyphe would be unessacary. 
you innoculate locally everytime you add leaf mold . shoot i am gonna laef mold my canna leaves instead of bokashi..
thanks stow


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i got very few leaves here if i had yards of leafmold adding hyphe would be unessacary.
> you innoculate locally everytime you add leaf mold . shoot i am gonna laef mold my canna leaves instead of bokashi..
> thanks stow


This is true. The leaf mold is a cold/fungal composting process, so my containers are filled with fungi as it is. Good point.


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> This is true. The leaf mold is a cold/fungal composting process, so my containers are filled with fungi as it is. Good point.





st0wandgrow said:


> You and I are doing two different things. Like I mentioned above, you are growing trees. I'm growing tiny plants in comparison. If I were in your shoes I might have a different outlook.


you are right here and i will limit myself in this thread from now on .
most folks here are in closed systems indoors i have that but it is not my focus at all .
my methods are mostly outdoor/ greenhouse 6-10 month old plants in organic stone based soil .... i should add a disclaimer to my shit .
thanks again for keeping realz
sorry to anyone i spewed my greenhouse tech on


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 31, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Maybe I'm alone in thinking like this, but to me organics should be simple and inexpensive. There are no SST's, coconut water, etc in nature. It's all about the compost IMO. Get that right and the plants will excel in spite of whatever else it is we're doing.
> 
> Leaf mold/coco coir/peat, home made vermicompost, and the usual amendments. I don't see the need for anything beyond that. Not to say that the other stuff will hurt anything, I just don't find that the juice is worth the squeeze. I have 3 young kids, and I'm self employed. I really don't have the time to be brewing up teas and driving all over the place sourcing ingredients. Simple is what I'm after, and it seems to be working well.


All im saying is there is always room for improvement. Those buds look amazingly healthy and beautiful. My motto is if you have time to topdress compost why not add the enzymes to kick start the feeding. I know for a fact my buds are bigger and frostier with an SST but maybe my compost is a little off. I'd still bet your buds would be equal if not better than mine though, SST or not.


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

Joedank said:


> you are right here and i will limit myself in this thread from now on .
> most folks here are in closed systems indoors i have that but it is not my focus at all .
> my methods are mostly outdoor/ greenhouse 6-10 month old plants in organic stone based soil .... i should add a disclaimer to my shit .
> thanks again for keeping realz
> sorry to anyone i spewed my greenhouse tech on


Screw that. I'm always interested to read about what you're doing. Shit, I'd love to get to the point you're at and be growing monster plants in a greenhouse. Keep it coming... I'm taking notes for when that day arrives!


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## st0wandgrow (Aug 31, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> All im saying is there is always room for improvement. Those buds look amazingly healthy and beautiful. My motto is if you have time to topdress compost why not add the enzymes to kick start the feeding. I know for a fact my buds are bigger and frostier with an SST but maybe my compost is a little off. I'd still bet your buds would be equal if not better than mine though, SST or not.


I could be wrong. I'm basing this 100% on anecdotal, subjective stuff. Just the eyeball test. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I just don't want to be doing this at the expense of my kids.... and that's what was starting to happen.

My wife hollering from upstairs: "honey, come look at the kids playing catch in the back yard"

Me: "hold on, I'm making a compost tea, and then I have to strain the corn kernels out of my SST. Give me 20 minutes"


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 31, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I could be wrong. I'm basing this 100% on anecdotal, subjective stuff. Just the eyeball test. I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong. I just don't want to be doing this at the expense of my kids.... and that's what was starting to happen.
> 
> My wife hollering from upstairs: "honey, come look at the kids playing catch in the back yard"
> 
> Me: "hold on, I'm making a compost tea, and then I have to strain the corn kernels out of my SST. Give me 20 minutes"


I don't want to seem like a religous organic man. I totally see your side. Family comes first and I appreciate your priority is your family. Maybe one day when I have a family I'll be very KISS. Righteous!


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 31, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> So your saying high humidy is attracting mites? That would make sense because my room is always dialed in with VPD in mind. Why would they come to a place with high RH?


No, I think the rh is just one of the key variables to creating the ideal environment for their procreation. Maybe that's some more to do with the clovers and what they do in higher rh environments, maybe it's more to do with the mites and their environmental preference, I'm not sure at all. It's just my experience that rh has to be relatively high for them to colonize. I've had house plants forever, even since I was a teenager, and have never had mites (that I know of) until my last move into an apartment. Which has surprisingly bad rh issues, super low in the winter and way too high the other 3 months.


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## Midwest Weedist (Aug 31, 2015)

Feed your worms bat poo? I'm not sure how that would work though to be honest lol. Hopefully someone can elaborate on this idea.


Joedank said:


> gosh i hope someday i can feel this way . one hit of guano top dress and i go shoooooot that went BOOM and i am making teas again thinking i am "helping the plant " i am working tward a 'COMPLETE" vermicompost but it takes good compost food for them to make it IMO...


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## Rrog (Aug 31, 2015)

Mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) produce sporocarps with spores.

Pretty much any root material has spores ready to go, as long as the root hasn't been sterilized.

I've never been a fan of ACT for the reasons St0w mentioned. Males compulsively tweak stuff. It's our nature, but not always necessary.


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 31, 2015)

Rrog what do you think of the product Modern Microbes at buildasoil?

http://buildasoil.com/products/modern-microbes

I'm not going to buy it of course but I am wondering if all those bacteria float around too. I am interested specifically in the Si solublizing microbes and would pay for those guys.


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## Pattahabi (Aug 31, 2015)

Rrog said:


> The fungal hyphae are big for sure, but spores go airborne. I see a few mycorrhizal studies online where they had to take steps to keep their tests from being contaminated by airborne mycorrhizal spores


Hey Rrog, I did see this one on ecto. Not sure I'm sold on the description, but seems possible. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00572-008-0176-3

I've seen on this site and others that the spores don't really float around. Not sure it would be possible to multiply these in a BIM, but I'm often wrong. 

http://www.biotechnica.co.uk/bioagronomy/science/mycorrhizae
_Mycorrhizae are not spread by airborne spores, and when they have been depleted or destroyed they cannot return unless they are purposely replaced. Regular soil disturbance together with the widespread use of fungicides, herbicides and other chemical inputs has reduced mycorrhizal populations in agricultural soils significantly._

Either way not trying to call anyone out, I didn't realize they were airbourne at all. 



Joedank said:


> man you zen approch leaves alot to be desired...
> this may be true for some fruiting bodies in damp areas...but glomus and others are pretty rare in nature hence there value ...
> thank you for calling him out on that bullshit @Pattahabi . in such a nice way too...
> i use mycos for the estamated 30% yeild increase and cuz with cover crops inccoulatiuon lasts forever


Hey Joe (makes me want to play some Jimmy lol)! Personally, I like to add a mycorrhizal innoculant. Everyone places their own value on things. For me, I don't think twice about spending $25 on an innoculant that lasts me 6-8 months easy. I also don't have a wife and kids. So I agree, to me I see value, but again, not trying to call anyone out per say. I'm also curious if we can culture PNSB in a BIM. I read in one book this was a reason to buy em-1 instead of making your own, but I'm still looking for other sources.

On the topic of simplification per Stow, I have pretty much cut out ful-power and coconut powder out of my regimes. I do still like to bubble some ewc and a weekly sst. Just how I do it.

Peace!

P-


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey Rrog, I did see this one on ecto. Not sure I'm sold on the description, but seems possible. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00572-008-0176-3
> 
> I've seen on this site and others that the spores don't really float around. Not sure it would be possible to multiply these in a BIM, but I'm often wrong.
> 
> ...


quantum growth light PNSB
i am using it with lab an other ones ... WOW my tomatoes an carrots LOVE IT.
but thats one that is in our belly buttons supposidly.....tons of ways to air culture it . but the quantum really works in the field esp tagged to some ksil . just spent 20$ on harmless harvest cocowater man is it good some for me an some for the ladies


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## Joedank (Aug 31, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) produce sporocarps with spores.
> 
> Pretty much any root material has spores ready to go, as long as the root hasn't been sterilized.
> 
> I've never been a fan of ACT for the reasons St0w mentioned. Males compulsively tweak stuff. It's our nature, but not always necessary.


thanks to this i was lead to this :
Hi Ivo & Donia, ... et al
I wish it was always that easy... As per my above comments re Ectomycorrhizal, Ericoid & Orchid mycorrhizal fungi, it is possible to culture these Basidiomycete & Ascomycete fungi in artificial media & in the absence of a living plant 'host' (symbiont partner). These fungal groups reproduce sexually & may produce many 1,000,000s of spores from above ground or below ground fruiting bodies.
However, unfortunately Arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi (AMF) are asexual Zygomycete fungi & are also obligate biotrophic symbionts (i.e. .can't grow let alone reproduce without the presence of a suitable & living plant root partners); & they don't produce 'fruiting bodies' like mushrooms, puffballs, truffles etc ... AMF do however asexually produce relatively tiny sporocarps which contain very few spores. Evidence indicates the importance to AMF spores of bacterial communties living within AMF sporocarps, these bacteria are believed to be important co-symbionts of AMF spores. Some AMF species can contain 'vesicles' within plant roots, some of these may also contain AMF spores.
In aeroponically produced AMF inocula, it is relatively easy to collect 'extradical' spores, sporocarps & hyphae, & likewise root segments containing 'intra-radical' hyphae & spores. However, with soil-borne AMF & 'pot-cultures' it is usual to use 'wet-sieve' methods to separate & collect AMF inocula .... quite time consuming, but relatively low tech & very effective. As a general rule for AMF inocula collection, soil aggregates attached to host plant roots are more likely to contain AMF spores than in soils more distant from plant roots, thus there's a bit of an art involved in getting watering & soil moisture optimal for adhering to roots at harvest, rather than too dry & fragile.
AMF spore germination & root inoculation is most effective if spores are placed relatively close to roots of plants to be inoculated. Likewise viable AMF hyphae inocula needs to be fresh and placed in close proximity to potential symbiont plant roots. It is also possible inoculate plant roots with AMF hyphae placed on moist paper in a Petri dish, & to germinate AMF spores close to roots.
It is tempting to believe the marketing 'hype' about some commercial AMF & Ecto-M inocula, freeze dried fungal spores are very good / ok, (but are often mono-cultural strains), mycorrhizal fungal hyphae are best used fresh !!!
As per my previous message, for further details see free download PDFs from: http://aciar.gov.au/publication/MN032

FINALLY A way to culture !!! and the fruiting bodies i saw were not from my innoculates...
thanks rrog


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## hyroot (Aug 31, 2015)

I got the 12 type of seeds mix from build a soil

Flax 
Brown Clover 
Yellow Sweet Clover 
Duch Clover 
Medium Red Clover 
Crimson Lentils 
Indainhead Safflower Hairy 
Vetch Vetch 
CommonRape 
Dwarf Essex Buckwheat 
Mancan Pea 
Forage

I had to do a hard reset on my phone. So no pics on my phone. So I just grabbed a pic from my ig.


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## Midwest Weedist (Sep 1, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I got the 12 type of seeds mix from build a soil
> 
> Flax
> Brown Clover
> ...


I use the same stuff, amazing when grown outside and allowed to bloom. The flax is beautiful; it has tiny blue rose looking blooms. I've collected seeds from a few species of the blend that I really liked.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 1, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey Rrog, I did see this one on ecto. Not sure I'm sold on the description, but seems possible. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s00572-008-0176-3
> 
> I've seen on this site and others that the spores don't really float around. Not sure it would be possible to multiply these in a BIM, but I'm often wrong.
> 
> ...


For the record, I still innoculate my root zone with extreme Myco. That's a pretty simple thing to do and doesn't take any time at all. I was just wondering out loud if its any benefit for me growing in a relatively small container, and considering I've been dumping my soil out after each round and re-amending. Peeps that grow outdoors, in larger containers, or even running no till would likely make better use of the product than I do.


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## Scotch089 (Sep 1, 2015)

Did you guys replace fulpower with anything or just eliminate it from your regime? I don't put any on my soil, but if I make a tea or foliar it's in it.


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## Joedank (Sep 1, 2015)

Scotch089 said:


> Did you guys replace fulpower with anything or just eliminate it from your regime? I don't put any on my soil, but if I make a tea or foliar it's in it.


i use it ALOT almost every foliar . root zone is more humic for me/ just vermicompost


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## ShLUbY (Sep 1, 2015)

Anyone care to comment about this product? http://sunleaves.com/Product/Details/SR366

How about the quality of Unco Wiggle Worm Castings? Will they be good enough for me to use? If not, what would you recommend that I can order in from the hydro shop? i can't find any local castings, and my compost is not ready yet...

I'm also considering the puffed recycled glass they've come out with too...


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## Scotch089 (Sep 1, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i use it ALOT almost every foliar . root zone is more humic for me/ just vermicompost


Only time I use ithe is with nitrozyme, mmmmmmmstackstackstack


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## unwine99 (Sep 1, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Anyone care to comment about this product? http://sunleaves.com/Product/Details/SR366
> 
> How about the quality of Unco Wiggle Worm Castings? Will they be good enough for me to use? If not, what would you recommend that I can order in from the hydro shop? i can't find any local castings, and my compost is not ready yet...
> 
> I'm also considering the puffed recycled glass they've come out with too...


I'll probably catch hell for this around these parts but if you can't source anything locally, I've found General Hydroponic's Ancient Forest Alaskan Humus to be a pretty decent product available in hydro stores, especially when compared to the Uncle Wiggle Worm castings, which I've also used. 

I've tried brewing aact's with the wiggle worm castings and the results were poor (as far as I could tell with no microscope) -- not very strong yeasty/earthy smells -- the water seemed to still smell kind of sweet from the molasses even after 36-48 hours of brewing. In contrast, the Alaskan humus produces deep yeasty aromas relatively quickly and after I water I always see a nice furry white layer of fungus form on the soil surface shortly after.


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## Rrog (Sep 1, 2015)

Dead castings have the nutes stored on humus, but no microbes. In soil, the castings will be repopulated by microbes, but not instantly. 

For whatever reason I bought a bag of castings about a month ago, and they were quite dry almost like vermiculite. This is likely because it simply dried in a parking lot somewhere


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## AllDayToker (Sep 1, 2015)

I've been buying the Unco Industries Wiggle Worm Soil Builder Earthworm Castings from amazon for a while, and I get great results with my teas and when I top dress. I also mix it when I re amend my soil.

I just recently start making and using my own vermicompost, but I still am using some of store bought castings until I get a good amount of vermicompost going.

The castings yout buy, like the one I mentioned above, are dried to around 5% moisture left and screened through very fine screens to get as consistent product as possible, and by doing so makes the product mostly castings. Vermicompost is made up of more then just castings and also has all the live microbe activity in it.

Anyways point in I get good results making microbes teas with the castings I bought, but I guess I don't really know if I was ever getting microbes from it. It smelled right and my plants would react quickly after I watered with a tea using it, so figured it's been doing the job right.

I'm much more excited about using fresh vermicompost though.


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 1, 2015)

so would I be better off using Ancient forest instead of worm castings in the soil base?? Or a combination of the two? I can get those from the store no problem. I just want to put together the right mix the first time to make sure it's going to grow the plants properly! I'm going to post the recipe i'm planning on putting together before I actually do it just to get some feedback on it.


----------



## Rrog (Sep 1, 2015)

I'd mix 'em. Vermicompost has so little aeration.

Side note: check out the Worm Inn or Worm Inn Mega. I have one and also the 360 stackable bins. I think I'm gonna like the Worm Inn better. Zippered lid on top so bugs stay out

I'm with AllDayToker. Your own Vermicompost is treasure


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 1, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I'd mix 'em. Vermicompost has so little aeration.
> 
> Side note: check out the Worm Inn or Worm Inn Mega. I have one and also the 360 stackable bins. I think I'm gonna like the Worm Inn better. Zippered lid on top so bugs stay out


ok i'll mix the two to equal 33% of the mix. I think i'm going to try that recycled glass pumice stone, and maybe some rice hulls mixed in too, along with the bio char.

speaking of the char... how would you guys charge your char yourself? I'm going to use the cowboy charcoal and i want to charge it myself... would it charge during the cooking process of the soil mix?


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 1, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Anyone care to comment about this product? http://sunleaves.com/Product/Details/SR366
> 
> How about the quality of Unco Wiggle Worm Castings? Will they be good enough for me to use? If not, what would you recommend that I can order in from the hydro shop? i can't find any local castings, and my compost is not ready yet...
> 
> I'm also considering the puffed recycled glass they've come out with too...


I know you're from MI right... If so, Starr Valley Farms in Ann Arbor has some great castings that they make fresh. You can pick up worms from them too.


----------



## AllDayToker (Sep 1, 2015)

I just got my worm factory 360 about a month ago or so, and I love that thing. Very easy to use. I've try homemade bins and never could get them going well personally.


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 1, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I know you're from MI right... If so, Starr Valley Farms in Ann Arbor has some great castings that they make fresh. You can pick up worms from them too.


yeah i suppose that might be worth the drive... i'll look into that. thanks.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 1, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> ok i'll mix the two to equal 33% of the mix. I think i'm going to try that recycled glass pumice stone, and maybe some rice hulls mixed in too, along with the bio char.
> 
> speaking of the char... how would you guys charge your char yourself? I'm going to use the cowboy charcoal and i want to charge it myself... would it charge during the cooking process of the soil mix?


That's a messy job. Make sure to where a mask while doing it or your lungs will look you've been a coal miner for 40 years.

Bio char will sequester N from your soil, so probably a good idea to soak it in a tea of some sort. I've used an alfalfa meal tea in the past, but others feel it's maybe better to use an AACT.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 1, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i suppose that might be worth the drive... i'll look into that. thanks.


I've also used Morgan Composting "Dairy Doo" for part of my base when castings were short. It's just composted cattle manure, but it seems like a good product and is very inexpensive. Look them up online and they give you a list of retailers in the state.


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 1, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Anyone care to comment about this product? http://sunleaves.com/Product/Details/SR366


I've used something that looked similar to that and it was expanded shale. Not my favorite especially because it's so damn heavy. It could be something else though. I can't really tell from that bag/description.

P-


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## ShLUbY (Sep 2, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I've used something that looked similar to that and it was expanded shale. Not my favorite especially because it's so damn heavy. It could be something else though. I can't really tell from that bag/description.
> 
> P-


that is exactly what it is. was just curious because they were talking about the silica in it. but im gonna get some glacial rock dust and i'm pretty sure that's gonna cover the silica along with the other 3 kinds of dust i have lol. i'll mulch dandelion too. come to think of it, i bet any kind of arugula or leaf lettuce would be a good silica source... all of the heirloom stuff that i grow oozes that milky white juice when i tear a leaf off of it just like the dandelion does. i love when the mind pieces things like that together mid post haha.


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 2, 2015)

Getting off the bottles is hard when you don't have a properly amended/composted soil. Still having issues with the Black Domino Plants. they are at 37 days today. I'm thinking since I am using dolomite lime I am having some Calcium issues due to it not being available if the lime takes as long to break down as everyone says it does.

Is there a tea I can make with the soft rock phosphate that I have? I thought I read a recipe a for it a while ago but you know how it can be searching for something when you dont know where to look exactly haha. figured it'd just be faster to ask.


----------



## bicit (Sep 3, 2015)

My issue is getting into a proper rhythm with composting. Either I have excess brown material and no green, or excess green material and no brown. Though I'm hoping to get a giant pile of leaf mold going this year. I'd like to at least stop buying peat and coco 

I think bokashi and worm composting may be more up my alley.



hyroot said:


> I got the 12 type of seeds mix from build a soil
> 
> Flax
> Brown Clover
> ...


I got the 15 seed blend last time. You won't be disappointed it blows up rather nicely.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Sep 3, 2015)

bicit said:


> My issue is getting into a proper rhythm with composting. Either I have excess brown material and no green, or excess green material and no brown. Though I'm hoping to get a giant pile of leaf mold going this year. I'd like to at least stop buying peat and coco
> 
> I think bokashi and worm composting may be more up my alley.
> 
> ...


Looks like it has a lot more grasses than the 12 species blend, I like it!


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## bicit (Sep 3, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Looks like it has a lot more grasses than the 12 species blend, I like it!


It's the 15 seed blend. Works well, I'm trying to leave it outside so everything can bloom and reseed itself.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Sep 3, 2015)

bicit said:


> It's the 15 seed blend. Works well, I'm trying to leave it outside so everything can bloom and reseed itself.


I've collected seeds from the 12 blend already! I've almost already collected what I bought!!


----------



## smink13 (Sep 4, 2015)

Quick question. I'm in Michigan, Novi area for anyone that may be around me.

I can't seem to find straight compost anywhere for a reasonable price. 

Lowe's and HD have compost +manure in one bag. I use them in my outdoor veggie garden without an issue.

Has anyone used these bags in their canna grows? I'm a bit leary of it being far too hot. I don't know how composted the manure is either.

Thanks!


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 4, 2015)

smink13 said:


> Quick question. I'm in Michigan, Novi area for anyone that may be around me.
> 
> I can't seem to find straight compost anywhere for a reasonable price.
> 
> ...


On the page before this Stowandgrow mentioned a place outside of ann arbor that sells quality vermicompost. I would say the stuff in the bags would have to be composted enough, plus you're going to compost the soil you build anyway for 4-5 weeks. the real no tillers are staying away from manures in their beds it seems.


----------



## a senile fungus (Sep 4, 2015)

smink13 said:


> Quick question. I'm in Michigan, Novi area for anyone that may be around me.
> 
> I can't seem to find straight compost anywhere for a reasonable price.
> 
> ...





ShLUbY said:


> On the page before this Stowandgrow mentioned a place outside of ann arbor that sells quality vermicompost. I would say the stuff in the bags would have to be composted enough, plus you're going to compost the soil you build anyway for 4-5 weeks. the real no tillers are staying away from manures in their beds it seems.



Smink, I'm getting EWC from star valley in the middle of next week. want me to pick you up any?

I already have the compost we PMed about, but I figure if I'm making a trip out that way that I would extend the invitation for EWC as well.

Let me know if you're interested.


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 4, 2015)

smink13 said:


> Quick question. I'm in Michigan, Novi area for anyone that may be around me.
> 
> I can't seem to find straight compost anywhere for a reasonable price.
> 
> ...


I would be real careful about any soil products bought from the big box stores. The vast majority, if not all, contain biosolids. Stay clear of anything made from Kellogg's, Scott's, Miracle Grow, etc. 

My 2¢,

P-


----------



## greasemonkeymann (Sep 4, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Maybe I'm alone in thinking like this, but to me organics should be simple and inexpensive. There are no SST's, coconut water, etc in nature. It's all about the compost IMO. Get that right and the plants will excel in spite of whatever else it is we're doing.
> 
> Leaf mold/coco coir/peat, home made vermicompost, and the usual amendments. I don't see the need for anything beyond that. Not to say that the other stuff will hurt anything, I just don't find that the juice is worth the squeeze. I have 3 young kids, and I'm self employed. I really don't have the time to be brewing up teas and driving all over the place sourcing ingredients. Simple is what I'm after, and it seems to be working well.


I agree wholeheartedly.
The last two runs I've done with nothing but an amended compost.
It's cool to know the ins and outs, but i'm trying to see what the bare minimum is to grow fantastic cannabis, and it seems like you are correct, the secret is a good quality humus source, that's fully active/alive.
So damn easy..


----------



## bicit (Sep 4, 2015)

I've used ecoscraps, cedar grove, and various other brands of 'post consumer/food/forestry/garden waste' compost with good success for vegetables and otherwise. Definitely not as good as home brew compost, but it get's you started anyhow. Also if you're patient you can always put a pile of big box compost aside and let the worms process it for a few months. Adding in your own food/garden scraps as well.

An idea I've been considering myself. Though I wouldn't consider myself an expert or connoisseur by any means.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 4, 2015)

smink13 said:


> Quick question. I'm in Michigan, Novi area for anyone that may be around me.
> 
> I can't seem to find straight compost anywhere for a reasonable price.
> 
> ...


If you're looking for inexpensive, Morgan Composting is a MI company and they sell a product called Dairy Doo. You can find it at the garden center (I forget the name of it) just north of Grand River on Haggerty.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 4, 2015)

^Farmer Johns^ is the name of it I think. They sell the Dairy Doo compost for $7-$8 per cubic foot bag


----------



## a senile fungus (Sep 4, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> If you're looking for inexpensive, Morgan Composting is a MI company and they sell a product called Dairy Doo. You can find it at the garden center (I forget the name of it) just north of Grand River on Haggerty.





st0wandgrow said:


> ^Farmer Johns^ is the name of it I think. They sell the Dairy Doo compost for $7-$8 per cubic foot bag



Never heard of them!

Gonna check it out next week.

I offered him 5gal of compost free, we'll see if he takes me up on it.

Thanks for the new place to visit, st0w. I'm going to see Jessie at start valley farms in the middle of next week, gonna pick up around 20 gal of EWC for me and a friend.


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## nvhak49 (Sep 4, 2015)

What brand of domolite line are you guys using? I just used the last of my garden lime yesterday and I want to get something else.


----------



## hyroot (Sep 4, 2015)

Google worm power. They're out of new york. But they have decent shipping rates. That's build a soils supplier for castings and compost.


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## hyroot (Sep 4, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> What brand of domolite line are you guys using? I just used the last of my garden lime yesterday and I want to get something else.



Oyster shell flour and or gypsum powder. Dole lime is a waste of time and money. It won't be readily available for at least over a year. It takes that long to break down.

From keep it simple organics or build a soil.


----------



## nvhak49 (Sep 4, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Oyster shell flour and or gypsum powder. Dole lime is a waste of time and money. It won't be readily available for at least over a year. It takes that long to break down.
> 
> From keep it simple organics or build a soil.


Are those both used for cal/mag and a ph buffer?


----------



## hyroot (Sep 4, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Are those both used for cal/mag and a ph buffer?


Yes


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## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Are those both used for cal/mag and a ph buffer?


Gypsum is good to have in your soil, but it is not a pH buffer nor does it have mg.

P-


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Sep 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Oyster shell flour and or gypsum powder. Dole lime is a waste of time and money. It won't be readily available for at least over a year. It takes that long to break down.
> 
> From keep it simple organics or build a soil.


I second this, skip the dolo. It's sht. I'm still have Ca issues with my last batch of soil that I used it in (and didn't crush before hand) and its been about 10 months since I let it rest after mixing it up.



nvhak49 said:


> Are those both used for cal/mag and a ph buffer?


A good source of relatively long-term Ca would be egg shells. I take 25-100 shells depending on soil mass, bake half for a few hours on like 350, crush all of them with a mortar and pestle, then add to my initial mix. I use this in my gardens too.


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I second this, skip the dolo. It's sht. I'm still have Ca issues with my last batch of soil that I used it in (and didn't crush before hand) and its been about 10 months since I let it rest after mixing it up.
> 
> 
> A good source of relatively long-term Ca would be egg shells. I take 25-100 shells depending on soil mass, bake half for a few hours on like 350, crush all of them with a mortar and pestle, then add to my initial mix. I use this in my gardens too.


Have you tried Gil's Cal/Phos egg shell recipe? I want to try this one of these days:

http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/recipes/calphos/

Peace!

P-


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Sep 5, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Have you tried Gil's Cal/Phos egg shell recipe? I want to try this one of these days:
> 
> http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/recipes/calphos/
> 
> ...


No, I haven't. But after reading through the method I guarantee it'll be the only method I use from now on! I've got about 30 egg shells in the freezer waiting to be processed. I wish I had a lab in the area that I could have test it for a complete analysis, oh well, one day!


----------



## hyroot (Sep 5, 2015)

Midwest Weedist said:


> No, I haven't. But after reading through the method I guarantee it'll be the only method I use from now on! I've got about 30 egg shells in the freezer waiting to be processed. I wish I had a lab in the area that I could have test it for a complete analysis, oh well, one day!



Be careful with that because vinegar is an herbicide 


I'd just put the egg shells in a worm bin.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Sep 5, 2015)

With the amount that it's diluted if imagine it wouldn't have that drastic of an effect


hyroot said:


> Be careful with that because vinegar is an herbicide
> 
> 
> I'd just put the egg shells in a worm bin.


----------



## DonTesla (Sep 5, 2015)

Unroasted eggshells don't have any available calcium according to this!?
That's mashed up..

Forgot eggshells during a recent quick build:
-I took like 40 shells and ground them into powder
-Took 40 more and mashed em coarse
-Poured a portion of this mixture in the new no tillbed in a row where no plants were..
-Innoculated this "calcium belt" and couple eggshell spikes with a nice basic microbeman style AACT

And now I find out its mainly phosphorous !? 

(Good thing we got lots of good calcium already.. )


----------



## 4ftRoots (Sep 5, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Be careful with that because vinegar is an herbicide
> 
> 
> I'd just put the egg shells in a worm bin.


If you can get the stoichiometry right the acetic acid will all turn to acetate which can be fermented again to form co2 and methane gas. So it basically becomes harmless over an amount of time if not in super excess.


----------



## 4ftRoots (Sep 5, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Unroasted eggshells don't have any available calcium according to this!?
> That's mashed up..
> 
> Forgot eggshells during a recent quick build:
> ...


I would question that because eggshell are made mostly of calcium carbonate. The acetic acid(vinegar) is used to release the calcium from the carbonate. I don't know where the phosphorus came from.


----------



## DonTesla (Sep 5, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I would question that because eggshell are made mostly of calcium carbonate. The acetic acid(vinegar) is used to release the calcium from the carbonate. I don't know where the phosphorus came from.


Sweet


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 5, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I would question that because eggshell are made mostly of calcium carbonate. The acetic acid(vinegar) is used to release the calcium from the carbonate. I don't know where the phosphorus came from.


This is in the comments:
_There is some phosphorus in egg shells, although they are about 95% calcium carbonate. I should probably amend this recipe since egg shells are much lower in phosphorus than other common sources you’d use, bones for example._

P-


----------



## DonTesla (Sep 5, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> This is in the comments:
> _There is some phosphorus in egg shells, although they are about 95% calcium carbonate. I should probably amend this recipe since egg shells are much lower in phosphorus than other common sources you’d use, bones for example._
> 
> P-


I just saw this:

Pan fry the eggshells. Fry until some are brown/black, some white. The burnt shells are your Calcium source while the white are the Phosphorus source.


----------



## hyroot (Sep 5, 2015)

Egg shells are 
95% calcium carbonate 
3% calcium phosphate
2% magnesium carbonate

Any egg residue will have trace amounts of nitrogen.


----------



## 4ftRoots (Sep 6, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> I just saw this:
> 
> Pan fry the eggshells. Fry until some are brown/black, some white. The burnt shells are your Calcium source while the white are the Phosphorus source.


Yeah that is what doesn't make any sense. How can burning something introduce a whole new element? Short story is I don't think it can.


----------



## DonPetro (Sep 6, 2015)

DonTesla said:


> Unroasted eggshells don't have any available calcium according to this!?
> That's mashed up..
> 
> Forgot eggshells during a recent quick build:
> ...


Thats bogus...i only powder my eggshells now and the tomatoes didn't show any end-rot at all so i would say they have plenty of calcium and fairly readily available.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Sep 6, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Egg shells are
> 95% calcium carbonate
> 3% calcium phosphate
> 2% magnesium carbonate
> ...


So they're basically Calcium, Phosphorus, and Carbon, sans whatever elements are bound up with them like oxygen. Seems like you



4ftRoots said:


> Yeah that is what doesn't make any sense. How can burning something introduce a whole new element? Short story is I don't think it can.


I would imagine that it just makes it readily available rather than creating it from nothing or something else.


----------



## Mohican (Sep 6, 2015)

You could just replace the vinegar with phosphoric acid. I already use phos acid for my hose water to drop the pH. I also use higher doses on the avocadoes to prevent a root disease.

Phos acid is also great for removing Ca and Iron Oxide. I cleaned my shower head in it in seconds


----------



## 4ftRoots (Sep 6, 2015)

Mohican said:


> You could just replace the vinegar with phosphoric acid. I already use phos acid for my hose water to drop the pH. I also use higher doses on the avocadoes to prevent a root disease.
> 
> Phos acid is also great for removing Ca and Iron Oxide. I cleaned my shower head in it in seconds


That would definitely work and eliminate the need to ferment. But adds a lot of phosphate, like a 2:1 ratio phosphoric acid: calcium. Can you overdo the phosphate? Where do you find phosphoric acid?


----------



## Mohican (Sep 6, 2015)

Got mine at the Farm Supply store. Grow More brand in the large jug. One pump squirt in a 5 gallon bucket gives me 5.7 pH water. Same pH as the rain I collected.


----------



## DonTesla (Sep 6, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Thats bogus...i only powder my eggshells now and the tomatoes didn't show any end-rot at all so i would say they have plenty of calcium and fairly readily available.


Good. I inoculated our calcium belt and soon, gonna bury it under living soil. I'm lucky.. Ain't worried bout nothin


----------



## Mohican (Sep 7, 2015)

Animal Cookies flower from the worm bin:



The Kelp meal box is a writhing ball of worms inside!


Cheers,
Mo


----------



## unwine99 (Sep 7, 2015)

Hey organifolk, this is what I saw when I lifted my pot out of the tray this morning after watering last night. I think they are springtails judging from a few pictures that I've seen online including the picture below this one. I know they're typically regarded as beneficial but what is considered an overabundance? This? lol .........This is what the entire perimeter of the 16 inch tray looks like.


----------



## st0wandgrow (Sep 7, 2015)

unwine99 said:


> Hey organifolk, this is what I saw when I lifted my pot out of the tray this morning after watering last night. I think they are springtails judging from a few pictures that I've seen online including the picture below this one. I know they're typically regarded as beneficial but what is considered an overabundance? This? lol .........This is what the entire perimeter of the 16 inch tray looks like.
> View attachment 3495074
> View attachment 3495073


They're harmless from what I've read, but they are a nuisance when sifting castings. I just lay a melon rind on top of my worm bin the day before harvest, and they accumulate on the rind which I then pick out and toss in the trash.


----------



## bizfactory (Sep 8, 2015)

I just read the convo about dutch clover attracting spider mites a few pages back...I'm pretty concerned. Haven't had any mites the first two grows but I wasn't doing no-till and no cover crop / mulch. Should I chop them down and let them compost? Totally remove them? Stop freaking out about it?? haha

I have nightmares about spider mites..


----------



## anzohaze (Sep 8, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> I just read the convo about dutch clover attracting spider mites a few pages back...I'm pretty concerned. Haven't had any mites the first two grows but I wasn't doing no-till and no cover crop / mulch. Should I chop them down and let them compost? Totally remove them? Stop freaking out about it?? haha
> 
> I have nightmares about spider mites..


Flame thrower is a must... just playing just keep a close eye on them and watch for them


----------



## bizfactory (Sep 8, 2015)

Is it really worth the benefits of the clover vs the risk of mites? At least my humidity has been pretty low.


----------



## anzohaze (Sep 9, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> Is it really worth the benefits of the clover vs the risk of mites? At least my humidity has been pretty low.


Well you could always switch your cover crop to something satisfying to you...
My friend has his own small business and what he does. Instead of actual clover or crops he will use micro greens arugula (not spelt correct) spinach I believe etc(not sure what all micro green he uses but it takes like 5 days to grow ( I think) he then turns around and sells it to
High end resturants for decent money. If the soil is not right it will be shit. But we'll established soil will shoot them micro greens like nothin


----------



## DonBrennon (Sep 9, 2015)

Gave a friend 5 blueberry cuts (fem'd) & 5 bubblegum cuts (reg). Turns out the bubblegum has hermie tendance and has pollenated his grow, badly.

Couple of questions or points to ponder:

Anyone tried or had thoughts about sst with cannabis seeds, what the benefits may be?

Anyone tried or had thoughts about cannabis fpe? (The mother plant is getting it, just don't want them genetics anywhere near my room)


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Sep 9, 2015)

Honestly I never had mite issues until this year, that's around a year and a half of having a decent amount of clovers growing inside before seeing spider mites. I think they're worth it, given that your rh stays below like 60% and you don't have a ridiculous amount of available nitrogen. My assumption of what spawned the mites in my case is an rh consistently above ~60% and higher temperatures. They also only showed up in my planters for my aloe that have clovers, but very little Neem/Karanja/Vermicompost/etc. My cannabis planters have at least three different species of clovers and absolutely no spider mites. Plenty of beneficial mites though!
My opinion, you're fine with clovers. Though if you're paranoid about it, there are a multitude of cover crops that work well indoors. BuildASoil sells a 12 and 15 species pack of cover crop seeds. Amazon has all kinds of legumes for only a couple dollars per pound. I think on the page before this or possibly one more back than that, someone listed a handful of them that work well. 


bizfactory said:


> Is it really worth the benefits of the clover vs the risk of mites? At least my humidity has been pretty low.


----------



## bizfactory (Sep 9, 2015)

Ty midwest! I think i'll leave them for now, maybe try the chamomile / yarrow combo after harvest assuming it goes well.


----------



## 4ftRoots (Sep 9, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> Ty midwest! I think i'll leave them for now, maybe try the chamomile / yarrow combo after harvest assuming it goes well.


I think if you keep your nitrogen in check the yarrow and chamomile would give your plants more benefit. The clover grows quickly and requires more mowing anyway.


----------



## bizfactory (Sep 9, 2015)

Thanks for the tips...what exactly do you mean by keeping the nitrogen in check? I'm not planning on doing any particular feeding besides maybe a tea before flower. This is also my first fully organic / no till grow so I'm still learning.


----------



## 4ftRoots (Sep 9, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks for the tips...what exactly do you mean by keeping the nitrogen in check? I'm not planning on doing any particular feeding besides maybe a tea before flower. This is also my first fully organic / no till grow so I'm still learning.


When I used the clover in my pots I relied on its ability to fix nitrogen into the soil to give my plants nitrogen. Now that I changed to my new cover crops I topdress N sources every so often since I lost my nitrogen source the clover. If you keep your soil well fed you shouldn't have a problem. Just wanted to make sure no one forgot that the clover does add a good amount of nitrogen.


----------



## Pattahabi (Sep 12, 2015)

This is from New Mexico State, it might give some ideas on what is going on with fixation, and how you can control N levels accordingly. 

*Nitrogen Fixation by Legumes*

P-


----------



## Mohican (Sep 12, 2015)

I grew soybeans a few years ago. Their roots were covered with nodules!

The edamame was the best tasting I had ever had!


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 14, 2015)

Do any of you use sand in your mix? I live by lake huron and beach sand is an easy resource for me... good silica source i would think... maybe use as part of a rock dust blend?


----------



## AllDayToker (Sep 14, 2015)

Well I know sand helps with drainage.


----------



## ShLUbY (Sep 14, 2015)

So I just measured out my first batch of ingredients. I think this mix will be good enough for no-till for a few runs at least!

Soil Mix
9 gal of Sunshine #4 mix (it's 2:1 peat to perlite)
3 gal of the growstone gnat mix (recycled glass => pumice)
3 gal of wiggle worms EWC
3 gal of Ancient Forest

Rock Dust Mix
4 cups Cascade minerals
1 cup C.B.D. minerals
1 cup Azomite
1 cup Oyster Shell
1/2 cup Greensand

Amendments
1 cup Crab Shell
1 cup Neem Meal
1 cup Kelp Meal
1 cup Gypsum
1/4 cup Alfalfa Meal
1/4 cup Epsom Salts

I'm brewing up some Boogie Brew tea now, and as of this moment I have not mixed the soil together or inoculated it. It's going to be used in a 20 gal container and I'm hoping there will be a few inches of space left at the top of the pot.

1) is there anything that I missed? I don't think so but maybe I'm missing the obvious.

2) All i have is a plastic tote to mix in at the moment. Should I drill so holes in it to allow air to get to the soil? or will holes in the lid be enough to let it do its thing for 4 weeks?


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## Rrog (Sep 14, 2015)

Clearly some but not all have issues with mites and clover. Not sure what is up, but since it's easy as shit to add N, try another cover crop. In my book the big benefit from a crop in between Canna grows is to keep the micro-herd busy and ready to go when I plug in the next Canna in the no-till sequence. The fact that clover might add N (if needed) was simply a plus.


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## bizfactory (Sep 14, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Clearly some but not all have issues with mites and clover. Not sure what is up, but since it's easy as shit to add N, try another cover crop. In my book the big benefit from a crop in between Canna grows is to keep the micro-herd busy and ready to go when I plug in the next Canna in the no-till sequence. The fact that clover might add N (if needed) was simply a plus.


Yeah I think I'm going to switch but how do I go about that? I've been snipping the clover down slowly but surely each day. Will it keep growing back? It's still pretty small at this point.


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## Rrog (Sep 14, 2015)

It'll keep growing back. I guess you'd pull it or start another pot fresh


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## bizfactory (Sep 14, 2015)

Well fuck, I'm can't start any new pots soon. Oh well, hopefully I'm a lucky one.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 14, 2015)

to any of you using the bluemats out there.... do you use the larger ones for you 15+ gallon containers? if so, how many per container are you using? I'm considering this product, but the passive hydro seems so much cheaper!


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## bizfactory (Sep 14, 2015)

I am doing 15 gal fabric pots and currently am running 2x Maxis in each pot. It's working pretty well but I do notice the edges getting a bit dry at the surface. I think it's fine but maybe just 1 Maxi and 5 distribution drippers would be better?


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## ShLUbY (Sep 14, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> I am doing 15 gal fabric pots and currently am running 2x Maxis in each pot. It's working pretty well but I do notice the edges getting a bit dry at the surface. I think it's fine but maybe just 1 Maxi and 5 distribution drippers would be better?


I was wondering about the drippers myself, but they almost seem unnecessary in the 15 gal. I'm thinking i'll probably run 2 or 3 maxis, and have a decent mulch on to help retain moisture in the top edges of the soil. I'm sure a little dryness in the top edges is perfectly ok; the bulk of the medium is at perfect moisture content so why worry about 5% or less is what I am thinking.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 15, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've done it all. My measuring stick is the health of the plants, and the finished product. My plants are as healthy or healthier than they've ever been. Maybe with a bigger swath of soil or a large bed with several plants in it I might notice a difference, but in my 10 gallon containers it was a waste of time.
> 
> I think these are pretty healthy..
> 
> View attachment 3490325 View attachment 3490326 View attachment 3490327 View attachment 3490328


hey stow, what strain is that, the purple one above the newspaper?
It's a purdy gal..


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 15, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> hey stow, what strain is that, the purple one above the newspaper?
> It's a purdy gal..


That's Plushberry. Got a clone in flower right now to see if I'm going to keep her around. Some strains seem to drift a bit from seed to clone so I try to run everything at least twice before I commit a bunch of soil and space to a strain.


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 15, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> Yeah I think I'm going to switch but how do I go about that? I've been snipping the clover down slowly but surely each day. Will it keep growing back? It's still pretty small at this point.


You might want to pull it to prevent it growing from a rhizome.


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## Mohican (Sep 16, 2015)

I rip it out by hand and lay it on top to protect the soil from drying. It just keeps growing back!


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## bizfactory (Sep 16, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I rip it out by hand and lay it on top to protect the soil from drying. It just keeps growing back!


Yeah...I'm pulling out so much dirt with each grab that I think I'm suck with clover for now.


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 16, 2015)

If you repeatedly pull the younger leaves as they come up it usually pulls the whole crown with it. I like to set mine in the sun to dry for a day before putting it back. It can root itself as a mulch from a crown easily.

Edit: that was when I was trying to get rid of it inside and replace with chamomile and yarrow


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## drekoushranada (Sep 16, 2015)

I have some chamomile I'm going to be trying soon per some of you all suggestions... Oan: Have anybody seen a correlation with the lighter the soil weight wise and plant growth being better? Versus the heavier mix.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 16, 2015)

does or has anyone used a rotten log when it can just crumble in your hand as a growing medium?


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 17, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> I have some chamomile I'm going to be trying soon per some of you all suggestions... Oan: Have anybody seen a correlation with the lighter the soil weight wise and plant growth being better? Versus the heavier mix.


I use 33% peat, compost, and turface clay/kittie litter. The soil seriously compacts but the pots are so full of worms the plants don't seem to mind. I just think about out how compact some soils are outdoors, if I can push my finger through then it should be no problem for the plants.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 19, 2015)

Figured i post couple pictures of my simple soil 40 percent compost 40 percent top soil , 10 percent cardboard chips , 5 percent grass clippings and 5 percent worms 
in ground now for 5 months with only rain water 0 nutrients top dressed soil with fresh grass clippings 2 times thats it 
presently 3rd week of flower and healthy was little worried that soil would be out of goodies appears plant is really happy  plant is 10 - 11 feet tall and 12 - 14 feet wide last pic is what she looked like end of may when i planted her


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## Mohican (Sep 19, 2015)

I have grown in heavy clay. It takes forever for plants to get established. However, once they do, they explode with growth.


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## bicit (Sep 19, 2015)

Alright so I have a few questions. I want to plant a seedling in a no-till container that I have a cover crop pretty well established in.The problem is cover crop currently has a pretty good colony of young aphids established. could I eliminate the problem by chopping the entire cover crop and top dress the container with some amended compost, then plant? Or is it possible to eliminate the aphid colony so I can chop the cover crop and keep it as mulch?


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## Mohican (Sep 19, 2015)

Covering with a layer of soil (about an inch) is sufficient to stop them.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 20, 2015)

https://sunlightsupply.com/shop/bycategory/growing-media/mother-earth-worm-castings

had my grow store guy order me in a couple bags of these castings to try out. anyone ever use them before? bout to get my worm farm started next week...


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## ShLUbY (Sep 20, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Figured i post couple pictures of my simple soil 40 percent compost 40 percent top soil , 10 percent cardboard chips , 5 percent grass clippings and 5 percent worms
> in ground now for 5 months with only rain water 0 nutrients top dressed soil with fresh grass clippings 2 times thats it
> presently 3rd week of flower and healthy was little worried that soil would be out of goodies appears plant is really happy  plant is 10 - 11 feet tall and 12 - 14 feet wide last pic is what she looked like end of may when i planted her View attachment 3503061View attachment 3503062 View attachment 3503063


what's the fruit tree next your bush?


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 20, 2015)

its crab apple tree


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## ShLUbY (Sep 20, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> its crab apple tree


u ever make cider with them?


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## anzohaze (Sep 20, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> does or has anyone used a rotten log when it can just crumble in your hand as a growing medium?


I no @greasemonkeymann uses rotted tree trunks in his soil and loves it.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 20, 2015)

well i am thinking about wine this year


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 20, 2015)

So many things a person can put into there soil and it will work great for instance all my yearly out door flowers get chopped and placed in soil , my fall fires same thing applies charcoal boards half burnt and half just wood turned into soil 
All my grass clippings , leafs and fall clean up into open pits in my garden once pits are filled i cover them


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 21, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> does or has anyone used a rotten log when it can just crumble in your hand as a growing medium?


I have used those for a while now, I highly recommend them for drier climates, in particular.
You want to get them relatively small, like no bigger than 3/4" squared, and you also want to charge them prior to adding to your soil, treat them sorta like biochar, only they hold moisture REALLY well, you'll water less with this in your mix, and the soil will stay a more humid state, longer.
Highly recommend.
Only use the stuff that is extremely well rotten, NOT the harder stuff, that will rob your soil as it breaks down. If you can't easily crumble it, I would find something different, I also don't prefer the bark part of the tree, as I *speculate* the tars/resins/tree sap therein may cause unpredictable changes in the soil, which may be harmless, beneficial, or detrimental... I don't know, so I don't use it.
If possible, it's better to find a log that is still somewhat moist (if you are in california, like me, good luck with THAT)


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 21, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> So many things a person can put into there soil and it will work great for instance all my yearly out door flowers get chopped and placed in soil , my fall fires same thing applies charcoal boards half burnt and half just wood turned into soil
> All my grass clippings , leafs and fall clean up into open pits in my garden once pits are filled i cover them


so true man, I really believe the secret to growing easy, awesome herb is simply a really diverse and thoroughly composted compost/humus source.
I wish I would have realized this decades ago, it really is simple.
And like a diet, the more diverse you get, the better, and less likely you'll EVER have any deficiencies.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 21, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> I have used those for a while now, I highly recommend them for drier climates, in particular.
> You want to get them relatively small, like no bigger than 3/4" squared, and you also want to charge them prior to adding to your soil, treat them sorta like biochar, only they hold moisture REALLY well, you'll water less with this in your mix, and the soil will stay a more humid state, longer.
> Highly recommend.
> Only use the stuff that is extremely well rotten, NOT the harder stuff, that will rob your soil as it breaks down. If you can't easily crumble it, I would find something different, I also don't prefer the bark part of the tree, as I *speculate* the tars/resins/tree sap therein may cause unpredictable changes in the soil, which may be harmless, beneficial, or detrimental... I don't know, so I don't use it.
> If possible, it's better to find a log that is still somewhat moist (if you are in california, like me, good luck with THAT)


yeah i live in MI and rotten moist logs are a common thing around here. Like you say, the only ones i was thinking about using are ones which would crumble in your hand. generally look for a very old rotted one laying that has taken on a dark brown color. i'll find some this week and take some pics and post. they should just decompose farther to black dirt like woods chips do, right? I have heard of a few no tillers using bark as mulch.... have you ever practiced this?

Also I am considering getting some very rich organic soil from a field, and from the forest. there are some oak growths around me that are pretty well aged and I would think i could get some really microbial rich earth from those old oak growths...


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 21, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i live in MI and rotten moist logs are a common thing around here. Like you say, the only ones i was thinking about using are ones which would crumble in your hand. generally look for a very old rotted one laying that has taken on a dark brown color. i'll find some this week and take some pics and post. they should just decompose farther to black dirt like woods chips do, right? I have heard of a few no tillers using bark as mulch.... have you ever practiced this?
> 
> Also I am considering getting some very rich organic soil from a field, and from the forest. there are some oak growths around me that are pretty well aged and I would think i could get some really microbial rich earth from those old oak growths...


you know, it's weird, I haven't seen them degrade further than what they are, they don't break down into humus the same that wood chips do. I've used wood chips before and after you get them hot, and they get that steamy white "frosty" looking mold/fungus/bacteria/whatever they disappear quickly, but there is something different to the log chunks, at least for me, BUT keep in mind I use redwood tree chunks, so perhaps theres a different quality to it.
But they've been in my mix for a while, and they aren't degrading any further, at least to where I can tell.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 22, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> so true man, I really believe the secret to growing easy, awesome herb is simply a really diverse and thoroughly composted compost/humus source.
> I wish I would have realized this decades ago, it really is simple.
> And like a diet, the more diverse you get, the better, and less likely you'll EVER have any deficiencies.


Grease monkey i shit you not years n years ago i made posts about making your own nutrients , teas , etc and i got laughed at how my simple soil took care of itself and most importantly my plants ,, growing plants is nothing understanding what plant needs and most importantly under standing soil ....
Growing up in the agricultural area and also coming from strict uprising being parents were European i was forced to learn how to farm never had the luxury of doing kid things sleep overs and what have you ,,, it was go go go morning chores , school , and back to work by the time i was 13 i could take a tractor completely apart engine and all and put it back together , just from picking up soil i would know being taught from father what it was lacking that my friends is skillz 
And that art is lost
What bothers me today is seems every couple of years people come up with some idea like no till gardening and i crack up how everyone these days jump the band wagon when everything was right in front of us all the time ..
like i said i showed the most simpliest soil anyone can make and with that said it was plant and walk away and let mother nature feed her and water her the first stage was excellent now 3rd week plus she is still nice lush n green and doing well an all i used was literally half in half top soil and compost

As for organic growing we cannot cut corners like many do and think there growing organic or how ever i am a firm believer that till gardening is still much superior then no till
i just wish that someone would do a side by side i think people would be shocked at the outcome .. till vs no till i see big problems eventually with no till hence in nature most no till areas/ forests naturally etc as i worked in the logging industry .. and was shocked at how many good tree cuts compared to dead standing or mutant deformed trees in what we could call NO till area or untouched now some are due to insect but then again we can say well how come one would think that no till trees would have its natural defenses 100 percent this is not the case anyways blabbing along 
i pretty shocked how my plant is doing considering such a simple soil and only rain water 

last picture is prepping my indoor live soil


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## ShLUbY (Sep 22, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Grease monkey i shit you not years n years ago i made posts about making your own nutrients , teas , etc and i got laughed at how my simple soil took care of itself and most importantly my plants ,, growing plants is nothing understanding what plant needs and most importantly under standing soil ....
> Growing up in the agricultural area and also coming from strict uprising being parents were European i was forced to learn how to farm never had the luxury of doing kid things sleep overs and what have you ,,, it was go go go morning chores , school , and back to work by the time i was 13 i could take a tractor completely apart engine and all and put it back together , just from picking up soil i would know being taught from father what it was lacking that my friends is skillz
> And that art is lost
> What bothers me today is seems every couple of years people come up with some idea like no till gardening and i crack up how everyone these days jump the band wagon when everything was right in front of us all the time ..
> ...


i think you're missing the point of no till. the purpose is to leave your microheard alone. no one is saying they wont repopulate once the land has been tilled. but it's better to leave them alone. people doing no till are still doing the SAME EXACT THING AS YOU ARE. they are mulching (amending) their soils with compost, EWC, ect. forms of humus. you are both achieving the same thing so to say one is better than the other is unjust. i don't disagree with you, if you amend your soil every year while tilling it up, you're going to have a good garden. 

no disrespect darth, but these trees that are falling in number due to pest and disease have nothing to do with "no till" at all. they are the direct result of globalization. forest populations are being decimated by foreign organisms, just like our lakes and streams are from foreign aquatic life. Example; dutch elm disease, emerald ash borer, varroa bee mites, zebra mussel in great lakes... all foreign. the reason they don't affect their own native habitats is because of evolutionary processes that inherited traits of defense against them. the system balances itself and everything has its niche until something gets off balance. these things happen all the time. its called evolution. soon there will be insect/disease resistant lifeforms of these same trees/plants/organisms that were once on the brink of endangerment. 

NO TILL farming is all about the ease of work. there are enough studies that show tilling land is like ransacking the home of your microlife, just as your home would be ransacked if someone robbed it. Organic is not just about no till- its about the cleanliness/safety for yourself of the things you use in your garden. if it's a bandwagon everyone is gonna jump on, probably one of the better things human race can embrace.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 22, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i think you're missing the point of no till. the purpose is to leave your microheard alone. no one is saying they wont repopulate once the land has been tilled. but it's better to leave them alone. people doing no till are still doing the SAME EXACT THING AS YOU ARE. they are mulching (amending) their soils with compost, EWC, ect. forms of humus. you are both achieving the same thing so to say one is better than the other is unjust. i don't disagree with you, if you amend your soil every year while tilling it up, you're going to have a good garden.
> 
> no disrespect darth, but these trees that are falling in number due to pest and disease have nothing to do with "no till" at all. they are the direct result of globalization. forest populations are being decimated by foreign organisms, just like our lakes and streams are from foreign aquatic life. Example; dutch elm disease, emerald ash borer, varroa bee mites, zebra mussel in great lakes... all foreign. the reason they don't affect their own native habitats is because of evolutionary processes that inherited traits of defense against them. the system balances itself and everything has its niche until something gets off balance. these things happen all the time. its called evolution. soon there will be insect/disease resistant lifeforms of these same trees/plants/organisms that were once on the brink of endangerment.
> 
> NO TILL farming is all about the ease of work. there are enough studies that show tilling land is like ransacking the home of your microlife, just as your home would be ransacked if someone robbed it. Organic is not just about no till- its about the cleanliness/safety for yourself of the things you use in your garden. if it's a bandwagon everyone is gonna jump on, probably one of the better things human race can embrace.


I'm not a strict no-till grower.
In smartpots with high amounts of compost I find the soil gets compacted after about three runs.
Besides my secret weapon is my compost, so I do like to re mix with that.
I saw an issue with soil having compaction problems especially after adding a lot of mulch on top.
I do see an advantage of using legumes for your pots if you have two sets... key is to allow them to die back and compost back into the soil or it's pointless.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 22, 2015)

we can sit here all day going back and forth on good points and bad points on both styles the truth is everyone uses the air nitrogen microbes get disturbed cause the top few inches of soil is disrupted but is it ?? i mean one table spoon of soil can have billions of microbes when looking at tillers or for instance there really disrupting top 6 - 12 "inches or so max pending on disc or roto tiller there more like 6 " arms for personal garden i use spade but lots of the microbes are not buried some go deeper again millions are turned and still end up on top ..
the biggest issues with tilling IMO is loss of top soil gone in the wind  
its again funny how many suggest that tilling will infact cause more compacting then no till which i find to be a load of crap
Simple really to think you going to get more compact soil from tilling here is a experiment dig a hole 3 feet deep by 3 feet wide and fill it back up with the same soil you took out
Wait a minute how come the soil does not fill hole ???
have you ever wondered how come when a person digs a hole there is never enough dirt to fill it up either its to much dirt due to air being mixed in or 9 times out of 10 not enough dirt
lets face it Dirt is only true organic form soil on other hand is man made we should really seperate the 2 dirt being untouched soil being touched by man in some way or form

I have never taken a class in soil science and perhaps the answer is discussed there.But no one seems to mention this bizarre phenomenon in the nursery trade- perhaps due to the embarrassment of not being able to explain it all?Maybe it's the worms- they are eating the dirt, digesting it, and turning it into some gaseous product that sails off into the upper atmosphere (greenhouse gases?).Is it a more complex reaction of dirt mixing with water and just making mud?That still wouldn't explain the missing-dirt-from-a-freshly-dug-hole phenomenon, though.

I will never look at dirt the same again.It sort of scares me now to dig holes as I assume I am upsetting some delicate balance in the universe, and that is why all the ‘extra' dirt is whisked away surreptitiously into some other dimension.Perhaps I will find it after I die.Just be sure when I do die, you bring extra dirt to fill the hole they put me in!


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 22, 2015)

yeah i get down with gypsum!


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 22, 2015)

Oh i should of said to think no till is much easier is plain wrong the biggest concern presently with no till is Nitrogen management and as for no till TBH there only good for so long where compacting becomes to great usually 5 - 6 years time they must be tilled and start all over


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 22, 2015)

All i am trying to say is experiment find out what works best for your situation from tilling to no till to companion planting.
Experiment and find the one style, that suits you and your area do not believe everything that is said from forums like this one or any other tweak enjoy and observe you grows and eventually you will find a perfect combo.
As for me i will always till


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## hyroot (Sep 22, 2015)

If you use cover crops. It helps keep the soil loose and not get compacted. Having worms in your pots will definitely improve aeration and prevent soil compacting too.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 22, 2015)

Found this growing in one of my containers. I've had little shrooms pop up before, but never one this big. Any idea what variety this is? @Javadog ?


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 22, 2015)

eat it lol its called the Areola mushroom lol note second pic its making me horny lol well i would look in what grows as in wild mushrooms in your area i would think it would make you sick ,, but who knows i am no expert on shrooms


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## ShLUbY (Sep 22, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Found this growing in one of my containers. I've had little shrooms pop up before, but never one this big. Any idea what variety this is? @Javadog ?
> 
> View attachment 3506011 View attachment 3506013 View attachment 3506015


it actually looks like a meadow mushroom to me. I spend a lot of time in the woods gathering wild mushrooms and other edibles. the mushroom that it looks like grows in lawns typically. do you add soil to your mix from an outdoor location? I mean honestly, there are so many white, gilled mushrooms that look similar to the naked eye from one another. Spore print is a way to help with the identification. leave it out on some paper or clear wrap and wait for it to spore out if you want to. you can use measurements of the cap and stem to help with ID after you get spore print. if you actually wanna spend the time to ID it lol


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 22, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> it actually looks like a meadow mushroom to me. I spend a lot of time in the woods gathering wild mushrooms and other edibles. the mushroom that it looks like grows in lawns typically. do you add soil to your mix from an outdoor location? I mean honestly, there are so many white, gilled mushrooms that look similar to the naked eye from one another. Spore print is a way to help with the identification. leave it out on some paper or clear wrap and wait for it to spore out if you want to. you can use measurements of the cap and stem to help with ID after you get spore print. if you actually wanna spend the time to ID it lol


There's some leaf mold in this mix that came from a pile in my backyard. I figured that's where it came from, just wasn't sure what type it was.

And no Darth, I'm not going to eat it. lol


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 23, 2015)

lmao, smart man!^^^^^ field guide referances are a must for fungi. Had a neighbor lose a puppy last year getting curious with field mushrooms sadly enough. So best to err on the side of caution with unknown shroomies, imho esp white gilled one's!


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## ShLUbY (Sep 23, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> There's some leaf mold in this mix that came from a pile in my backyard. I figured that's where it came from, just wasn't sure what type it was.
> 
> And no Darth, I'm not going to eat it. lol


yeah, when it doubt... throw it out!! speaking of the leaf mold though.... do you just pile up the leaves and let them compost on their own for a year or so??? sunny location or shaded location for the pile?? anything you like to add to it? i have a couple big maple trees in the back yard and they're not going to the curb this year lol. my gf is like, seriously you're keeping all the leaves???

Edit: Oh i misspoke, it looks like a Fairy Ring mushroom. google the image. pretty cool.


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 23, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah, when it doubt... throw it out!! speaking of the leaf mold though.... do you just pile up the leaves and let them compost on their own for a year or so??? sunny location or shaded location for the pile?? anything you like to add to it? i have a couple big maple trees in the back yard and they're not going to the curb this year lol. my gf is like, seriously you're keeping all the leaves???


Yep, just piled in the yard. I bought some chicken wire and enclosed the pile so that I didn't have leaves blowing all over. I mulched them with my lawn mower to break them down a bit and create more surface area. They are almost all carbon by the time they fall off the tree, so adding a source of N (I used alfalfa pellets from a feed store) will help speed up the decomposition. Then just wet it down and forget about it. The pile will heat up substantially, and will reduce big time. 12 months seems to be the minimum when adding a source of N. If you just pile them up and leave them it can take upwards of 3 years.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 23, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah, when it doubt... throw it out!! speaking of the leaf mold though.... do you just pile up the leaves and let them compost on their own for a year or so??? sunny location or shaded location for the pile?? anything you like to add to it? i have a couple big maple trees in the back yard and they're not going to the curb this year lol. my gf is like, seriously you're keeping all the leaves???
> 
> Edit: Oh i misspoke, it looks like a Fairy Ring mushroom. google the image. pretty cool.


I'd go with a shady spot, think of it like a replicated moist forest to break it down faster.
And i'd add kelp meal to the pile at a minimum, and if you are like most organic farmers you may have leftover guanos or fish meal or whatever, THOSE are awesome to use as a nitrogen input tp your pile, and will accelerate the thermophilic process of the compost.
grass clippings work well for that too.


st0wandgrow said:


> Yep, just piled in the yard. I bought some chicken wire and enclosed the pile so that I didn't have leaves blowing all over. *I mulched them with my lawn mower to break them down a bit and create more surface area*. They are almost all carbon by the time they fall off the tree, so adding a source of N (I used alfalfa pellets from a feed store) will help speed up the decomposition. Then just wet it down and forget about it. The pile will heat up substantially, and will reduce big time. 12 months seems to be the minimum when adding a source of N. If you just pile them up and leave them it can take upwards of 3 years.


As usual good advice man.
If you have layered alfalfa in there it'll break down faster than 12 months. At least it did for me, i had pure black crumbly humus in like 6 months. BUT i amended the bejesus out of it, and turned it a lot too.
Pure leafmold can take three yrs, but that's with nothing added.
If you like those pellets maybe see how much a bale of alfalfa is, sometimes they break it up or sell it for hamsters or whatever, but that stuff fresh can boost the temps fast, and that'll break it down faster.
I can't remember the advantage of having a PURE leafmold as opposed to a mixed amended one, or if there is. I seem to remember somebody saying it was better for some reason.. Maybe on grasscity or something.
Anyways, i use the fresh alfalfa, kelp meal, fishbonemeal, etc, etc, etc.
If you wanted to keep it a strict plant based compost i would add kelp meal to it.
Layer it, and break it down, and absolutely run it through a leaf mulcher or a lawnmower, that speeds it up bigtime.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 23, 2015)

lawnmower.... brilliant!!! yeah i will do kelp meal, alfalfa meal, grass clippings, gypsum; oyster mushroom growers use this in the wheat straw they inoculate so i'm thinking it may have some benefits in speeding it up? just my hypothesis. i just need this stuff to be ready because i'm moving late summer next year. so i'm going to get it going when the leaves fall and hope it will be ready early summer. we have cold snowy winters so i'm thinking the spring i will keep it well turned, and the freeze thaw cycles will break it down even faster? another hypothesis.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

i always wondered why have a cover crop in no till gardening when you are actually growing the product ..
I mean no till a person should have mulches, composts twigs and brush i guess this helps in keeping soil moist / warm there fore cover crops are buried under the theory of leaching nutrients into the soil from layered compost and such on top of soil ??? now i can see possible cover crop like clovers and such after a harvest and in fall for its short life to prevent possible weed growth but wouldn't a person be really placing compost and mulches on top rather then cover allowing the soil to replenish it self ??? least that is what i would do da hell with cover crops its consistent adding of grass clippings or potato peels twigs etc as per plants needs ,, as well as in fall when preparing soil for next season


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## ShLUbY (Sep 24, 2015)

same concept as mulching when mowing the lawn. leave the clippings to replenish the soil. the crops probably provide habitat and more stuff for microbes. I may do this for one of my challenges in the no till pots i'm about to put together. I think i'm going to do one without biochar, others with bio char, one i will give just water, other i will give teas. maybe one with a living mulch and one with deadfall mulch. experimenting is the only way to the answers right?


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

well one would also think if your trying to be in set with mother nature then i would stay away from making teas and pouring it to leaving it to rain fall and natural occurring i guess teas if that is the case 
But back to cover crop this is where i think not till is jumping all over the place or people are trying to do this when in fact cover crop was meant for use lets say farm land acres of land or big area 
i mean lets say i have a 5 x 5 box i plan to no till first year of course you add dirt and of course amendments with that comes top layering of composts where it covers all 25 Sq feet of it there fore i have no need for a cover crop or it would be buried there and die from no sunlight as well as rot from the heat and moisture . of compost i think there is allot of confusion . when it comes to no till and also appears everyone throws there ideas and say this is no till etc 
i would really like to here from no till growers that grow in pots 20 - 30 gallon and is it working i mean i grow in 34 gallon totes and by the time i am done one grow start to finish there is litterally no soil left but all roots so if i see this ???how can a person chop plant and make a hole next to it and have it grow with more precentage of roots to soil mass with that said one would think it would become higher acidic which would lead to less organic decomposition and overall health of a plant


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## iHearAll (Sep 24, 2015)

Ha the only "no till" that wouldake sense for containers is aquaponics. But also, of you have a container with only roots and sands then plant a legume in it. Never done that but if your soils spent you gotta make soil with nitrogen first. Same as the tilling gardeners.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 24, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> well one would also think if your trying to be in set with mother nature then i would stay away from making teas and pouring it to leaving it to rain fall and natural occurring i guess teas if that is the case
> But back to cover crop this is where i think not till is jumping all over the place or people are trying to do this when in fact cover crop was meant for use lets say farm land acres of land or big area
> i mean lets say i have a 5 x 5 box i plan to no till first year of course you add dirt and of course amendments with that comes top layering of composts where it covers all 25 Sq feet of it there fore i have no need for a cover crop or it would be buried there and die from no sunlight as well as rot from the heat and moisture . of compost i think there is allot of confusion . when it comes to no till and also appears everyone throws there ideas and say this is no till etc
> i would really like to here from no till growers that grow in pots 20 - 30 gallon and is it working i mean i grow in 34 gallon totes and by the time i am done one grow start to finish there is litterally no soil left but all roots so if i see this ???how can a person chop plant and make a hole next to it and have it grow with more precentage of roots to soil mass with that said one would think it would become higher acidic which would lead to less organic decomposition and overall health of a plant


ok for your 5x5 bed. i mean there was literally no space left in my 3x8 beds. every tall plant had an edible cover crop below it. below my tomatoes i grew carrots, lettuce, green onions, peppers, basil. I vined all my curcubits on verticle trellis and grew green beans, and radishes below and all around them. i mean literally, there was not an empty space in those garden beds. covercrops shaded the roots and soil below, and kept the soil where i wanted it.

ok well another point for having cover crop is erosion. cover crops keep soil in place. the roots would also probably aerate the soil up top. also, plant roots emit hormones that are detected by chemical sensors in the roots of other plants which tell each other to grow in a different direction (analogous to repelling charges). that being said, cover crop roots would deter cannabis roots from growing up into the top 1" (or deeper) of the soil medium, deterring them from being exposed to lights and forming a cork (bark layer) on the outside; usually this is where the soil drys out the fastest so the roots of cannabis would be deeper down where more moisture is available.

i'm not advocating one way or the other, i'm just saying. to each his own. people have all kinds of different methods for achieving the same results as others. our brains all work differently, and will find understanding in things that others don't.

as for the teas, lots of the no tillers dont bother with anything but compost tea to repopulate microbes.


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## Darth Vapour (Sep 24, 2015)

but why would you have to worry about errosion when the soil is no disturbed to begin with ???? to my understanding cover crops are to be the natural weed killers no different then in organic til growing


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## ShLUbY (Sep 24, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> but why would you have to worry about errosion when the soil is no disturbed to begin with ???? to my understanding cover crops are to be the natural weed killers no different then in organic til growing


the force of water can wash away top soil. im surprised this isn't obvious to you. I don't get what you're trying to prove against no till? do we need to just say your method is best? I'm not trying to discourage questions, just seems like you have this bias opinion. I'll be posting my result with 15 and 20 gal containers so you can see for yourself. i'll be seeing for myself as well since i've never known anyone that employs these methods to cannabis. I'm sure these containers are going to be no till for a certain amount of time before, like gmm said, they compact too much. i'll be adding worms to my no till bed to help with the aeration. maybe they will make it a year before needing to be broken up and remixed. I don't really know.

i would bet a majority of the people in this section aren't no tillers. they are recycling soil and reammending it the same fashion that is "tilling" really.


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## AllDayToker (Sep 24, 2015)

My plants always seem happy after a good vermicompost/compost/worm casting tea. I use the same amount of each, I just switch it up. They are all pretty similar in use, just building up my microbes.

If they plant reacts well right after, I think it's a good thing to add. The more comfortable and happy a plant is, the better the end product.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 24, 2015)

Been recycling this batch for about two years now, and this is the fourth run no-till on this soil.



Peace!

P-


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## AllDayToker (Sep 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Been recycling this batch for about two years now, and this is the fourth run no-till on this soil.
> 
> View attachment 3507360
> 
> ...


Very healthy!!!


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Been recycling this batch for about two years now, and this is the fourth run no-till on this soil.
> 
> View attachment 3507360
> 
> ...


Shiny and I like the nine fingered leaves!


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## Pattahabi (Sep 24, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Very healthy!!!


Thanks ADT! I was a little concerned because I didn't tend to the beds as diligently inbetween rounds. A couple act's, some kelp they don't seem to mind thus far. 



4ftRoots said:


> Shiny and I like the nine fingered leaves!


Thanks man! I give the credit to aloe and water foliars! 

This is a Pura Vida from Bodhi.



Peace!

P-


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## ShLUbY (Sep 24, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Been recycling this batch for about two years now, and this is the fourth run no-till on this soil.
> 
> View attachment 3507360
> 
> ...


have you been reammending the soil or just busting up and remixing? they look so happy and beautiful


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## hyroot (Sep 24, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> but why would you have to worry about errosion when the soil is no disturbed to begin with ???? to my understanding cover crops are to be the natural weed killers no different then in organic til growing



Watering causes erosion and soil to compact. Cover crops help prevent that. 

Even though the soil beneath the surface isn't disturbed. The flow of water causes erosion..

Outside its not just wind but rain too.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 24, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> have you been reammending the soil or just busting up and remixing? they look so happy and beautiful


Thanks ShLUby! There has been no amending and very little top dressing for the the last four rounds. I think I topdressed 1/4c kelp and 1/4c neem per 100 gallon bed after the last round. Then a good layer of EWC, new mulch, cover crop, called it a day! To help with transplant shock, they were given a couple of aloe/silica foliars. I smoke my share of weed. I have to keep the regimine simple lol!



Peace!

P-


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 25, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Thanks ShLUby! There has been no amending and very little top dressing for the the last four rounds. I think I topdressed 1/4c kelp and 1/4c neem per 100 gallon bed after the last round. Then a good layer of EWC, new mulch, cover crop, called it a day! To help with transplant shock, they were given a couple of aloe/silica foliars. I smoke my share of weed. I have to keep the regimine simple lol!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It must be me and my smaller 35 gal pots but I always have to add more calcium. Kelp just doesn't always cut it for me.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 25, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> It must be me and my smaller 35 gal pots but I always have to add more calcium. Kelp just doesn't always cut it for me.


These beds are full of worms. The calcium carbonate from their slime, crab meal, oyster shell, etc supply the calcium. I've notilled in 10 & 15 gallon pots and it was a little more difficult to keep them happy imo.

Peace,

P-


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 25, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yep, just piled in the yard. I bought some chicken wire and enclosed the pile so that I didn't have leaves blowing all over. I mulched them with my lawn mower to break them down a bit and create more surface area. They are almost all carbon by the time they fall off the tree, so adding a source of N (I used alfalfa pellets from a feed store) will help speed up the decomposition. Then just wet it down and forget about it. The pile will heat up substantially, and will reduce big time. 12 months seems to be the minimum when adding a source of N. If you just pile them up and leave them it can take upwards of 3 years.


3-5 years ive found best results with. I have a question for you guys, if you had to go into your local forest, and source your soil from there(i know its a cooky situ but work with me here) Where would you source it from and why?


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 25, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Been recycling this batch for about two years now, and this is the fourth run no-till on this soil.
> 
> View attachment 3507360
> 
> ...


I can relate


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## ShLUbY (Sep 25, 2015)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> 3-5 years ive found best results with. I have a question for you guys, if you had to go into your local forest, and source your soil from there(i know its a cooky situ but work with me here) Where would you source it from and why?


I would say you would want a mixture of pasture soil, and forest soil. For the forest... i'm going to an old river terrace I know of (was once a flood plain but now has developed forest grown in with mature trees and does not flood anymore for a long long long time). the soil there is unbelievably soft, black, gotta be rich with humus, micro life, fungi, ect. this could cover the fungal dominant soil. The older the trees, the better the soil i would say just because it is more developed. 

I would think once might want a bacterial dom soil as well from a field or pasture or something... again probably the longer the field has been there, the better the soil will likely be I would think.

just curious... but how are you planning to ratio your recipe of soil with other things? would you use it as humus and medium and just add aeration? so 2:1? I've been trying to figure out the recipe in my mind lol.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Sep 25, 2015)

Your thought process is right along with mine................in my forest area stinging nettles thrive in my soil area. kinda funny how companion crops kinda hint at ya in the woods huh?


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## ShLUbY (Sep 25, 2015)

dude i have nettles out the wazoo! do you ever eat them? in the spring time, pinch off the tops of the plants before they get taller than a ft, so you just want the top two or 3 sets of leaves. simmer/blanch like you would spinach, add butter, garlic, and salt & pepper. the blanching takes away the stingers. I forage for all kinds of mushrooms and wild edibles throughout the whole year. it's like an extra garden for me lol, and i don't even have to do the work! just walk, harvest, and enjoy myself in the elements.


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 25, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Been recycling this batch for about two years now, and this is the fourth run no-till on this soil.
> 
> View attachment 3507360
> 
> ...


i can totally tell you just gave them aloe spray.
mine look the same way, all shiny and happy.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 25, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> i can totally tell you just gave them aloe spray.
> mine look the same way, all shiny and happy.


I hate to always promote the aloe foliar, but seriously, my plants just love it! I've been out of the powder for a while now and have been using fresh. I need to get more powder as there isn't much left of my aloe plant lol! In fact, I just put in new bulbs and cleaned the glass. I'm going to go aloe foliar again to help with the increase in light! 

Peace!

P-


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## greasemonkeymann (Sep 25, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I hate to always promote the aloe foliar, but seriously, my plants just love it! I've been out of the powder for a while now and have been using fresh. I need to get more powder as there isn't much left of my aloe plant lol! In fact, I just put in new bulbs and cleaned the glass. I'm going to go aloe foliar again to help with the increase in light!
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


like me always promoting my amended compost pile?


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## ShLUbY (Sep 25, 2015)

saw two thripes in my veg tent today; smashed the buggers. so i busted out the new ahimsa neem oil and dr. b's peppermint soap and gave them all a good spray down. Everything in this tent is in a base mix 33%peat 33%pumice 33% EWC and Ancient Forest 1:1, with the rock dusts, and gypsum. that is it. I have fed them nothing but AACT (boogie brew) when i transplanted them, and coconut water.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 25, 2015)

greasemonkeymann said:


> like me always promoting my amended compost pile?


Having good humic material is paramount. The rest are little tips and tricks imo.

P-


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## DonPetro (Sep 26, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Having good humic material is paramount. The rest are little tips and tricks imo.
> 
> P-


I agree. Start with a good humus source and build up from there.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 26, 2015)

I have a question for you guys.... If i quarantine plants from another growers room that have the potentential to carry PM, treat them, and take new cuts off of them and put them in my soil and throw out the plants/soil he gave them to me in and just roll with the cuttings and new soil... i should be ok right? I have a whole separate veg room i can use to keep them quarantined in.

a friend of mine has gotten some powdery mildew in his room. The guy who was supplying him with the genetics also had it too, and they think that's where it came from.

they have some really killer genetics and he's going to toss them all after the weekend and start over. Querkle, GG#4, Vortex, just to name a few.

i kinda feel like there is no reason to throw everything in veg room out, as PM spores are everywhere, and if the environment is controlled, this shouldn't be much of an issue.

I've heard peroxide is good to use for PM. i usually have the 3% stuff on hand at the house here. is that ok to use?


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## drekoushranada (Sep 26, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> I have a question for you guys.... If i quarantine plants from another growers room that have the potentential to carry PM, treat them, and take new cuts off of them and put them in my soil and throw out the plants/soil he gave them to me in and just roll with the cuttings and new soil... i should be ok right? I have a whole separate veg room i can use to keep them quarantined in.
> 
> a friend of mine has gotten some powdery mildew in his room. The guy who was supplying him with the genetics also had it too, and they think that's where it came from.
> 
> ...


Tell him send me a few before he does. Lol... JK. Make sure you are diligent with the treatment. I had a whole grow wiped out from white flies from a gifted clone. Live and learn.


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## Pattahabi (Sep 26, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> I have a question for you guys.... If i quarantine plants from another growers room that have the potentential to carry PM, treat them, and take new cuts off of them and put them in my soil and throw out the plants/soil he gave them to me in and just roll with the cuttings and new soil... i should be ok right? I have a whole separate veg room i can use to keep them quarantined in.
> 
> a friend of mine has gotten some powdery mildew in his room. The guy who was supplying him with the genetics also had it too, and they think that's where it came from.
> 
> ...


Personally, I would not introduce those to my room, but I'll be interested to hear what others say.


P-


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## ShLUbY (Sep 27, 2015)

drekoushranada said:


> Tell him send me a few before he does. Lol... JK. Make sure you are diligent with the treatment. I had a whole grow wiped out from white flies from a gifted clone. Live and learn.


yeah i had that happen with mites several years ago from a novice grower i helped get going. he just wanted to repay me with a couple plants. i was too naive at the time to quarantine them and treat them. he got the plants from someone, which had the mites, and then gave them to me! then tried to tell me it wasn't that big of a deal. needless to say, we don't see eye to eye on the growing scale lol


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## st0wandgrow (Sep 27, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> I have a question for you guys.... If i quarantine plants from another growers room that have the potentential to carry PM, treat them, and take new cuts off of them and put them in my soil and throw out the plants/soil he gave them to me in and just roll with the cuttings and new soil... i should be ok right? I have a whole separate veg room i can use to keep them quarantined in.
> 
> a friend of mine has gotten some powdery mildew in his room. The guy who was supplying him with the genetics also had it too, and they think that's where it came from.
> 
> ...





Pattahabi said:


> Personally, I would not introduce those to my room, but I'll be interested to hear what others say.
> 
> 
> P-



I agree with P. I wouldn't risk it either. Once you have PM it seems to stick around. I've never dealt with it myself, but have heard some pretty bad stories about growers that have.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 27, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> I agree with P. I wouldn't risk it either. Once you have PM it seems to stick around. I've never dealt with it myself, but have heard some pretty bad stories about growers that have.


I actually had it a long time ago on some cheese, which the grower had it as well. but it did not stick around. in fact, i only saw it on one run, which was the original cut he gave me. after that, i didn't see again. I'm not saying this is going to be the case with this stuff though. i guess my brain just wants me to believe if i clean them, and clone them (clone ONLY new growth), i will be able to keep the genetics and not have to start from seed! im going to keep them at opposite ends of the house if i do this until that process is complete


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## ShLUbY (Sep 27, 2015)

it's char-ging. i know, bad pun. this will be for my char challenge! they will be water only, one char and one no char, 20 gal fabric containers with the same soil recipe other than the char. Charged with alfalfa and kelp meal for 20 hrs or so, and now i have some boogie brew compost tea with BSM in there as well. gonna let it go until tomorrow.

So i was not smart and didn't put the alfalfa and kelp meal in the tea pouch... do you guys think it will be ok to just strain and leave the meal in with the char? will this affect my soil mix at all? i honestly can't remember how much i put in the bucket... couple tablespoons of each i'm guessing.

also can i do anything with the water that i charged the char in?


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## calliandra (Sep 28, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> do you guys think it will be ok to just strain and leave the meal in with the char? will this affect my soil mix at all?


I don't see how it could affect your soil negatively, if that's your concern - it's organic material after all 

Same goes for the water, if it's from something you're putting in the soil, why not use it to water other plants too while it's still fresh?

Just my outdoor perma-gardener common sense speaking there, it's usually simpler than we think haha!
Cheers


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## ShLUbY (Sep 28, 2015)

not negatively, just hear warnings of too much alfalfa... so i had to ask lol. and I just didn't want to risk giving them the water. i mean all it is is nutrient/compost tea that has been diluted by the charcoal. but just wasn't sure if the charcoal water was good to use or not. better safe than learn the hard way if you don't have to!


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## ShLUbY (Sep 28, 2015)

So i'm guessing the majority of silence towards my question of taking those plants with PM on them is ppl saying, "you're out of your fuckin mind for even considering it." So i guess i'll just leave them to their fate, and let bygones be bygones. time to order some seeds i guess! it'll give me time to get the rest of my living soil together, and decide a keeper of the two Dr. Who phenos i have. Just thought for sure i could save them...


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 28, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> So i'm guessing the majority of silence towards my question of taking those plants with PM on them is ppl saying, "you're out of your fuckin mind for even considering it." So i guess i'll just leave them to their fate, and let bygones be bygones. time to order some seeds i guess! it'll give me time to get the rest of my living soil together, and decide a keeper of the two Dr. Who phenos i have. Just thought for sure i could save them...


I would take them if they are great pheno's or you like the smoke. I don't like to promote ozone and I don't like ozone but it kills mold spores instantly by oxidizing. Some things I just have to do for my grow room. I keep my room in perfect VPD but when I foliar in flower I run ozone after to kill potential spores. I have yet to have a mold problem.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 28, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I would take them if they are great pheno's or you like the smoke. I don't like to promote ozone and I don't like ozone but it kills mold spores instantly by oxidizing. Some things I just have to do for my grow room. I keep my room in perfect VPD but when I foliar in flower I run ozone after to kill potential spores. I have yet to have a mold problem.


could you tell me a little about how you manage your VPD. do you run a sealed room and supply co2? are you using a controller to keep it in check all the time? 

my friend has an ozone generator i could borrow. I could put the plants in a quarantine room and run that thing for a bit, yeah? I was thinking about spraying them with the 3% peroxide to achieve the same thing, oxidation. 

I'm saving the querkle, for sure. it's the good pheno. i really wanna save the vortex too. not even sure exactly what all he hasn't tossed yet, so i'll find out soon enough.


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 28, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> could you tell me a little about how you manage your VPD. do you run a sealed room and supply co2? are you using a controller to keep it in check all the time?
> 
> my friend has an ozone generator i could borrow. I could put the plants in a quarantine room and run that thing for a bit, yeah? I was thinking about spraying them with the 3% peroxide to achieve the same thing, oxidation.
> 
> I'm saving the querkle, for sure. it's the good pheno. i really wanna save the vortex too. not even sure exactly what all he hasn't tossed yet, so i'll find out soon enough.


Yeah I didn't go much into detail. I would run the ozone in a room with the plant to kill the mold and the spores. The h2o2 is a great idea too. I would run it until you know there is a good bit of ozone then let it sit 10 mins and air it out. You can do that as many times as you want but waiting a day between would be good. I just let mine go in my grow room and set the exhaust into the doorway for 10-15 mins. I then vent outdoors and return to recycling in my house.

For the VDP I use a homemade controller that switches a relay to a dehumidifier. It usually kicks on at night and maintains a humidity given a certain temperature. I didn't make an equation I just took a VPD chart and saved the ideal values in the code for a given temperature. The code measures the temp and humidity through peripheral devices like a thermistor and humidity sensor at the exit of the exhaust.

I don't do co2 but I have 5 worm bins that are placed at my entrance and I feel like that is a lot of co2.

Those cuts sound fire I've always wanted to try querkle. Would love to see it in living soil.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 28, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Those cuts sound fire I've always wanted to try querkle. Would love to see it in living soil.


thanks for the response. what temp do you typically run your room during light hours? 

the vortex is gone, but the querkle is there still. ill be getting it this weekend, and GG#4. sweet!


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## ShLUbY (Sep 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I saw this on another thread. Basically Monsanto shady schemes in the mj industry.
> 
> http://bigbudsmag.com/marijuana-cannabis-maximum-yield-monsanto-sunlight-supply/


@hyroot 

just came across this post... man I've seen it all now. you know, every day it seems like there is something that just leaves me speechless. This definitely did just that. makes me pissed that i just bought these sunlight supply "mother earth" castings... makes me wonder what unspeakable things are in the bag they aren't listing lol. they looked good on paper... really dry, fine castings outta the bag. no big clumps like the unco castings.


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## Mohican (Sep 29, 2015)

I had a couple TGA strains grown from seed that tried to get PM on me in the middle of a hot summer! Sprayed them daily with some mild lemon juice/water mixture. It was gone in a week and never came back.

Got the lemon juice at Costco:







Cheers,
Mo


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## AllDayToker (Sep 29, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I saw this on another thread. Basically Monsanto shady schemes in the mj industry.
> 
> http://bigbudsmag.com/marijuana-cannabis-maximum-yield-monsanto-sunlight-supply/


That's some not so cool shit. Fk that GMO shit.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 29, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> That's some not so cool shit. Fk that GMO shit.


the GMO isn't the problem toker because we can all just say no. it's the fact that monsanto is gettin his paws in the cannabis industry. what happens when he somehow patents THC? or even worse, the real healer CBD. then no one will be able to grow weed without purchasing seed from monsanto? no more seed saving... suicide gene will be added to the DNA so seeds wont grow. some fucked up shit. it seems no one can stop this guy...



Mohican said:


> I had a couple TGA strains grown from seed that tried to get PM on me in the middle of a hot summer! Sprayed them daily with some mild lemon juice/water mixture. It was gone in a week and never came back.
> 
> Got the lemon juice at Costco:
> 
> ...


thanks for the tip Mo. i'll be sure to use lemon juice! after i use the peroxide/ozone. kill the spores... change the leaf surface Ph.... no more growth!


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## 4ftRoots (Sep 29, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> thanks for the response. what temp do you typically run your room during light hours?
> 
> the vortex is gone, but the querkle is there still. ill be getting it this weekend, and GG#4. sweet!


81 degrees fahrnheight max in the summer. usually around 79-80


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## Midwest Weedist (Sep 30, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> well one would also think if your trying to be in set with mother nature then i would stay away from making teas and pouring it to leaving it to rain fall and natural occurring i guess teas if that is the case
> But back to cover crop this is where i think not till is jumping all over the place or people are trying to do this when in fact cover crop was meant for use lets say farm land acres of land or big area
> i mean lets say i have a 5 x 5 box i plan to no till first year of course you add dirt and of course amendments with that comes top layering of composts where it covers all 25 Sq feet of it there fore i have no need for a cover crop or it would be buried there and die from no sunlight as well as rot from the heat and moisture . of compost i think there is allot of confusion . when it comes to no till and also appears everyone throws there ideas and say this is no till etc
> i would really like to here from no till growers that grow in pots 20 - 30 gallon and is it working i mean i grow in 34 gallon totes and by the time i am done one grow start to finish there is litterally no soil left but all roots so if i see this ???how can a person chop plant and make a hole next to it and have it grow with more precentage of roots to soil mass with that said one would think it would become higher acidic which would lead to less organic decomposition and overall health of a plant


 if you have an Instagram account, go check out mountainorganics. Guy is killing no till in 45 - 200 gallon planters. I think he has some in their 14th cycling


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## ShLUbY (Sep 30, 2015)

@Mohican what dilution rate were you running the lemon juice at? im gonna grab some santa cruz organic from the store this weekend when i get those cuts.


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## hyroot (Sep 30, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> @Mohican what dilution rate were you running the lemon juice at? im gonna grab some santa cruz organic from the store this weekend when i get those cuts.


1 tsp to a quarter of water.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 30, 2015)

ALERT: STUPID QUESTION AHEAD.

Ok. This organic seems like freekin rocket science to me. I need an easy recipe to get started. Something premixed off the shelf with very few other things to buy/add. I know, I can search, but I am so stupid about it, I don't know who to listen to and trust.

My goal. To make organic living soil cheap and easy without a lot of different additives I have to buy. Preferably, something already in the bag ready to use. I don't want to add chems. I just want to water the plant when it needs it. I can figure out the regimen. I have time to get started and may even transplant a dwarf fruit tree into this kind of setup. I don't just grow weed. I would like to see improved yields and a healthy plant.

Guess I'm getting bored with hempy bucket and Lucas formula. But, I don't want to have to mess with organic all the time either. I hated hydro and all the PH testing/adjusting. And like 8 part nutes. Eff that.

So can anyone lead stupid to a trusted recipe to get some living soil started? I would appreciate it.


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## AllDayToker (Sep 30, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> the GMO isn't the problem toker because we can all just say no. it's the fact that monsanto is gettin his paws in the cannabis industry. what happens when he somehow patents THC? or even worse, the real healer CBD. then no one will be able to grow weed without purchasing seed from monsanto? no more seed saving... suicide gene will be added to the DNA so seeds wont grow. some fucked up shit. it seems no one can stop this guy...
> 
> 
> 
> thanks for the tip Mo. i'll be sure to use lemon juice! after i use the peroxide/ozone. kill the spores... change the leaf surface Ph.... no more growth!


Idk if I can see a big global power like thst taking over the cannabis industry. I mean yes the did great with their grain and they are making a shit ton of money.

But there is also the independent, mom&pop shop, and small time commercial industries in marijuana where the roots are deep. It will be something else to see a very large scale Agro Co. try to do the same things with such a plant.

I mean of course they do what they want and engineer a ridiculously high yielding, high potency strain, that you can harvest from year round, but that's not what industry wants.

I would hope our community is above unrealistic strains like that becoming reality, but when there is money, there is coruption. Anything worth anything is worth squeeze the most you can.

Man I've had too many shots I'm rambling


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## AllDayToker (Sep 30, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> ALERT: STUPID QUESTION AHEAD.
> 
> Ok. This organic seems like freekin rocket science to me. I need an easy recipe to get started. Something premixed off the shelf with very few other things to buy/add. I know, I can search, but I am so stupid about it, I don't know who to listen to and trust.
> 
> ...


Get a good mix of soil. Meaning an amount of water absorption, compost/dirt material, and drainage.

So like earthworm castings/vermicompost, with vermiculite or perlite, and coco coir or peat moss.

Then start brewing microbes teas. Just compost/castings with molasses. Bubble for 24-48 hours and water as usual.

The more microbe teas you do, the more you are boosting the microbe colony. There is obviously a point where teas don't add more microbes, because your soil is already efficient in with the colony it has. 

At this point, just water will be sufficient. The water will keep the soil moist, allowing the microbes a suitable environment to live and do there thing, allowing them to take of your soil, in return providing the soil with a plentiful of pure organic nutrients that will give you many, many, many, harvest.

I think that's all right. I've had a few so forgive me for any mistakes.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 30, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Get a good mix of soil. Meaning an amount of water absorption, compost/dirt material, and drainage.
> 
> So like earthworm castings/vermicompost, with vermiculite or perlite, and coco coir or peat moss.
> 
> ...


Yeah thanx man I am sure you know your stuff. I'm kinda stupid. Explain it like the instructions on the back of a frozen pizza box. Step 1 preheat oven to 425. Step 2. Etc. 

Thanks bro. I smoked my first bowl haven't had a few but I feel ya. Have fun. I'll get my drank on in a few days too. 

Maybe I'm too stupid for Organic living soils.


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## AllDayToker (Sep 30, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> Yeah thanx man I am sure you know your stuff. I'm kinda stupid. Explain it like the instructions on the back of a frozen pizza box. Step 1 preheat oven to 425. Step 2. Etc.
> 
> Thanks bro. I smoked my first bowl haven't had a few but I feel ya. Have fun. I'll get my drank on in a few days too.
> 
> Maybe I'm too stupid for Organic living soils.


Well shit I can make it simple. 

If you do 1 part good soil or compost/1part vermiculite or perlite/1 part coco coir or peat moss.

First run or two water with microbe/compost teas completely, like every watering. After that I'm sure you're soil will have a fully suitable microbe colony to survive on water only as long as you keep it moist and alIve.

Correct me if I'm wrong any gurus out there.

My shit is only complete when I know all, so I will always be shitting.

Hahaha


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## ShLUbY (Sep 30, 2015)

As i stated in another post, most grow companies will not provide a ready to use mix of soil because there is not a large enough market for them to have a need to sell these types of mixes. they're dependent on you buying the bottles and using stuff up and and having to buy more. that being said, the beauty of the direction you are heading will make you less dependent on the grow store (or even not have to go at all!), and those big companies. not saying big companies are bad, but we all know what happens when billions of dollars are at stake, greed takes over (in most cases lol not all).

Recipe:

33% highest quality compost you can get your hands on, 33% drainage (pumice, rice hulls, lava rock, whatever you want to use), 33% sphagnum peat moss

amendments per cu. ft. of the above mix (cuft = 7.5 gallons)

1/2cup neem/karanja seed meal
1/2cup crab shell/meal
1/2cup kelp meal
1/2cup oyster shell flour
1/4cup alfalfa meal (optional)
3-4 cups of rock dust (using a variety of different dusts is good)

other optional amendments are
soft rock phosphate @ 1/2cup
gypsum @ 1/2cup
organic fish bone meal @ 1/2cup

mix all together and water in with a compost tea (earth worm castings + unsulfured molasses bubbled for 24-48 hrs) and keep it moist for 4-5 weeks before you plant into it. 

this can be a no till recipe and is for many, or you can break each pot down after harvest and REUSE the soil by amending it with the same things you used to amend the first time, just at 1/4 or less of the strength, rewater with compost tea, and keep moist for a few weeks before planting into it.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 30, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Well shit I can make it simple.
> 
> If you do 1 part good soil or compost/1part vermiculite or perlite/1 part coco coir or peat moss.
> 
> ...


GUESS WHAT! 

I got some Amazon Bloom soil. I got MG Sphagnum Peat moss. And I got plenty of perlite that's clean! 

I CAN DO THAT! Hell yeah! Maybe about 3-4 gallons worth which is fine by me. I like small. 

Now what the fuck is microbe/compost tea? I only have Orange Peko and some green tea in the little packets you dip in hot water. 

Thanks a million bro! We are getting somewhere. 

P.S. I want to do live earthworms. And how do you set up the pot? Line bottom with newspaper? Thanks again man. Peace and love.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 30, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> As i stated in another post, most grow companies will not provide a ready to use mix of soil because there is not a large enough market for them to have a need to sell these types of mixes. they're dependent on you buying the bottles and using stuff up and and having to buy more. that being said, the beauty of the direction you are heading will make you less dependent on the grow store (or even not have to go at all!), and those big companies. not saying big companies are bad, but we all know what happens when billions of dollars are at stake, greed takes over (in most cases lol not all).
> 
> Recipe:
> 
> ...


I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. But that's too complicated. Like rocket science. Man I just want to set it and forget it. If it's too much, I'll just stick with hempy bucket and Lucas.


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## nvhak49 (Sep 30, 2015)

Ok another stupid organic question. I got my nutes mix from buildAsoil and I'm going to buy some straw mulch too but since you guys are keeping the living soil moist how do you know when to water again? I've been usually waiting till they get light by weight but since it's living soil drying it out will kill off the microbes and it defeats the purpose of having living soil. I have a blumat system I can use too I'm just not sure if that would work good in living soil or not but I thought I would try on my next cycle. Thanks in advance.


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## nvhak49 (Sep 30, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. But that's too complicated. Like rocket science. Man I just want to set it and forget it. If it's too much, I'll just stick with hempy bucket and Lucas.


Go to buildAsoil.com I'm new to this as well but that site is pretty awesome I just got my craft blend pre mix nutes yesterday and I already have it in 18 gallons of soil cooking for my next cycle mid October. But read what they have on that site and you can buy some pretty awesome all organic nutes and everything else that you need they even have worm bins you and buy but I just made mine out of plastic tubs.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 30, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Ok another stupid organic question. I got my nutes mix from buildAsoil and I'm going to buy some straw mulch too but since you guys are keeping the living soil moist how do you know when to water again? I've been usually waiting till they get light by weight but since it's living soil drying it out will kill off the microbes and it defeats the purpose of having living soil. I have a blumat system I can use too I'm just not sure if that would work good in living soil or not but I thought I would try on my next cycle. Thanks in advance.


Holy crap! You mean you gotta worry about keeping the living soil alive too? OMG! I'm getting anxiety already. I usually let my stuff dry out anyway. Mad respect for you dudes that do this. Sounds like it takes commitment. Like the whole method is as fragile as a human baby. I'm not big on taking care of kids. lol


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## hyroot (Sep 30, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Ok another stupid organic question. I got my nutes mix from buildAsoil and I'm going to buy some straw mulch too but since you guys are keeping the living soil moist how do you know when to water again? I've been usually waiting till they get light by weight but since it's living soil drying it out will kill off the microbes and it defeats the purpose of having living soil. I have a blumat system I can use too I'm just not sure if that would work good in living soil or not but I thought I would try on my next cycle. Thanks in advance.





GrowUrOwnDank said:


> Holy crap! You mean you gotta worry about keeping the living soil alive too? OMG! I'm getting anxiety already. I usually let my stuff dry out anyway. Mad respect for you dudes that do this. Sounds like it takes commitment. Like the whole method is as fragile as a human baby. I'm not big on taking care of kids. lol



Not really. Its actually a lot less work than you think. Just don't let the soil dry out. Use mulch. Whether it be a living mulch / companion crops, wood chips, barley straw, dried leaves etc.... Mulch will help the soil hold moisture longer. Keep the soil cooler on hot days. If the soil does dry out too much, water with a compost tea. Use larger pots that only have to be watered once a week or use blumats.

By weight is what I do. You get a feel for it. If you run blumats that's not an issue at all.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 30, 2015)

I really believe one of you smart fellows should package all these parts and sell them as a kit. I would prefer to just buy all the ingredients together and mix it by your instructions. Like a cake in a box you just mix the ingredients and build it. Or, at least package the smaller amendments like 1/2 cup of this that and the other and give simple instructs on getting the main soil, perlite, moss. There is an opportunity in there somewhere. There are no local hi tech grow shops in my area. Just coop type stuff for farmers. Thanks for your time and info.


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## ShLUbY (Sep 30, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> I appreciate you sharing your knowledge. But that's too complicated. Like rocket science. Man I just want to set it and forget it. If it's too much, I'll just stick with hempy bucket and Lucas.


ok dude, before you go jumping to conclusions about the difficulty of this...

if you cant measure out 1/2 a cup of this, 1/2 a cup of that... but you could measure bottled nutes Ph... you have your view on this wrong.

all you do is make the soil and add water. its water only after that. does it get any easier? you make the soil, keep it moist, and let the plant grow itself. not complicated at all


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## hyroot (Sep 30, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> I really believe one of you smart fellows should package all these parts and sell them as a kit. I would prefer to just buy all the ingredients together and mix it by your instructions. Like a cake in a box you just mix the ingredients and build it. Or, at least package the smaller amendments like 1/2 cup of this that and the other and give simple instructs on getting the main soil, perlite, moss. There is an opportunity in there somewhere. There are no local hi tech grow shops in my area. Just coop type stuff for farmers. Thanks for your time and info.



Build a soil

Keep it simple organics

Mountain organics

Worm power


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## AllDayToker (Sep 30, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> GUESS WHAT!
> 
> I got some Amazon Bloom soil. I got MG Sphagnum Peat moss. And I got plenty of perlite that's clean!
> 
> ...


Microbe/compost teas are simply teas that help introduce more microorganisms to your ROLS.

For a microbe tea...

You simply get a source of microbes/microorganisms, like compost/castings/ect and add a source of food, like molasses, then add aeration.

24 to 48 hours you got a chuck full of different microbes to throw into your soil.

If you get a good enough colony all you have to do is keep that colony alive, add water, and you can grow as many runs as you want in that microbe rich soil. No need for teas or anything.

A farmer did this for years, only fed a compost/microbe/casting tea in his systems. After so many years his grounds were so packed full of microbes all he had to do was water every year, feeding was unneeded.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Sep 30, 2015)

I'm gonna do this guys. Was checking out this site dude gave earlier. 

http://buildasoil.com

Looking for just a package of the smaller amendments. Got soil, moss perlite already. 

Thx alldaytoker for explaining tea.


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## hyroot (Sep 30, 2015)

GrowUrOwnDank said:


> I'm gonna do this guys. Was checking out this site dude gave earlier.
> 
> http://buildasoil.com
> 
> ...



Buy the cootz mix without minerals. Then buy minerals mix. It's cheaper that way then buying the entire nutrient mix and you get more too.


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## Mohican (Oct 1, 2015)

Charcoal, ash, fish guts, kelp, worms, moldy leaves, banana peels, cardboard, grass clippings.

This should be a good start.

How is your native soil? Sandy, clay, rocks...?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 2, 2015)

time to rid some powder mildew.... picked up those cuts last night. GG#4, querkle, Sour D. I sprayed them with H2O2 earlier and have had the fan blowing on them. 

powdery mildew, i've read, like dry conditions. i feel his basement was extra dry, and he did not have the proper aeration in his veg room. so i'mma keep my veg side around 60% RH, lots of wind, and this stuff for foliar.

Neem would be good to use every other round to coat the leaf and help the cuticle be more resistant to the spores, would you all agree?


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## Mohican (Oct 3, 2015)

Just make sure you add soap to the neem to help it stick and use hot water first and then add cool to make a warm mixture. The neem oil likes to be warm. For soap I use Coco Wet and sometimes plain old Dawn (tiny bit).


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## ShLUbY (Oct 3, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Just make sure you add soap to the neem to help it stick and use hot water first and then add cool to make a warm mixture. The neem oil likes to be warm. For soap I use Coco Wet and sometimes plain old Dawn (tiny bit).


yeah i made the emulsion with the dr. bronners peppermint last time. i mixed them before i added to the pump sprayer. it seemed to work really well, i'm gonna hit them with the lemon tomorrow, and the next application will be the neem. i'll post a before and after in a couple weeks with these clones. they are kinda rough lol. i had to tear off a lot of the big leaves that had any mildew on them. they'll take a while to rebound but i think they're all gonna make it. i just want the clone the new healthy growth anyway and throw out the plants. dont need anything sticking around on the old stalks


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## Mohican (Oct 3, 2015)

Neem has anti PM abilities too. You can add the lemon to the neem mix and apply it all at once.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 3, 2015)

Mohican said:


> Neem has anti PM abilities too. You can add the lemon to the neem mix and apply it all at once.


cool, tomorrow i'm pulling all of my veg room out from under the light, and spraying it all down, along with the quarantined clones i have (in another room of course). Thanks Mo. The organic community on this site is top notch. Just want to thank you all for helping me speed up the learning curve, and helping along the way. I'm thinking about starting a thread soon for my garden. be kinda cool to see the vegamatrix transition to living soil in a single thread.

who here runs a 24/0 veg cycle? i've been wondering if i should switch back to 18/6 or 20/4 cycle... maybe i need to do some research on the interwebz....


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## Mohican (Oct 3, 2015)

@doublejj is running his veg 24/0. His look great. 

I have heard that they like to have a rest and so I use 18/6 (I am also not in a hurry).


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## drekoushranada (Oct 4, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> cool, tomorrow i'm pulling all of my veg room out from under the light, and spraying it all down, along with the quarantined clones i have (in another room of course). Thanks Mo. The organic community on this site is top notch. Just want to thank you all for helping me speed up the learning curve, and helping along the way. I'm thinking about starting a thread soon for my garden. be kinda cool to see the vegamatrix transition to living soil in a single thread.
> 
> who here runs a 24/0 veg cycle? i've been wondering if i should switch back to 18/6 or 20/4 cycle... maybe i need to do some research on the interwebz....


I run 18/6. I seem to get a better structure when I run it that way. But other than that it saves me a little coin on the electric bill.


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 5, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Have you tried Gil's Cal/Phos egg shell recipe? I want to try this one of these days:
> 
> http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/recipes/calphos/
> 
> ...


My plants live on all of these recipes plus some


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 5, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> Well fuck, I'm can't start any new pots soon. Oh well, hopefully I'm a lucky one.


if you get mites then mite control, simple...simple as long as early


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 5, 2015)

Mohican said:


> I had a couple TGA strains grown from seed that tried to get PM on me in the middle of a hot summer! Sprayed them daily with some mild lemon juice/water mixture. It was gone in a week and never came back.
> 
> Got the lemon juice at Costco:
> 
> ...


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## cannakis (Oct 6, 2015)

Mohican said:


> @doublejj is running his veg 24/0. His look great.
> 
> I have heard that they like to have a rest and so I use 18/6 (I am also not in a hurry).





ShLUbY said:


> cool, tomorrow i'm pulling all of my veg room out from under the light, and spraying it all down, along with the quarantined clones i have (in another room of course). Thanks Mo. The organic community on this site is top notch. Just want to thank you all for helping me speed up the learning curve, and helping along the way. I'm thinking about starting a thread soon for my garden. be kinda cool to see the vegamatrix transition to living soil in a single thread.
> 
> who here runs a 24/0 veg cycle? i've been wondering if i should switch back to 18/6 or 20/4 cycle... maybe i need to do some research on the interwebz....


Mo is right... The plants Develop Roots in the night. So I would definitely have Some darkness... Maybe try out 21/3...!?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 6, 2015)

cannakis said:


> Mo is right... The plants Develop Roots in the night. So I would definitely have Some darkness... Maybe try out 21/3...!?


my plants develop plenty of roots with no darkness lol. i just wonder if giving them a rest would just be beneficial in some way because after all, they evolved with darkness at night. 

speaking of darkness at night.... i find it pretty funny that people freak out over a couple pinholes in their grow at night. Is it ever really, truly 100% dark outside every night? hell no. growers claim that pinholes cause hermies in their grow... when more likely it's stress, or genetics. this is just my common sense rambling. i have no fact to back this up, but i'm calling "myth busted" on this one. what you guys think?


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 6, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> my plants develop plenty of roots with no darkness lol. i just wonder if giving them a rest would just be beneficial in some way because after all, they evolved with darkness at night.
> 
> speaking of darkness at night.... i find it pretty funny that people freak out over a couple pinholes in their grow at night. Is it ever really, truly 100% dark outside every night? hell no. growers claim that pinholes cause hermies in their grow... when more likely it's stress, or genetics. this is just my common sense rambling. i have no fact to back this up, but i'm calling "myth busted" on this one. what you guys think?


I agree 100 percent. I have fkn streetlights on below and lights on Buddha's alter and all sorts of random lights being flipped on throughout night....NO issues


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## ShLUbY (Oct 6, 2015)

Black Domina


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 7, 2015)

i'm running 21/3 atm, never tried it before. I am happy with my results so far.


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## AllDayToker (Oct 7, 2015)

I agree that I think the plants just need SOME rest at least. 

I haven't done any personally testing myself so I cannot prove my thoughts besides the fact that mother nature allows her plants some sleep time haha.

Also doesn't the plants system changes up, like during the day they take in co2 and release oxygen, and then at night it switches or something?


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 7, 2015)

here again my injury to my ole brainstem rers it's ugly head.....i know that there's beneficial actions going on during a dark period, i just don't quite remember what those are. Had a university of vermont botanist give me a disertation on this a few months ago lol.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 7, 2015)

well at night, photosynthetic processes just stop. plants will continue to grow but they use the sugars produced by photosynthesis that were stored up in leaves and in the roots. that's kinda why 24hrs works, because they don't really need the rest... but i'm sure they'd like it!


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 7, 2015)

I love you guys so i'll share my personal go to guy for organics problems......charlie is the BEE'S KNEE'S!
http://gardeningwithcharlie.com/


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 9, 2015)

I recently had a magnesium deficiency that I fixed without epsom salts and I thought I would share with the masses. I can't remember where I read it but I read that brown rice flower is super high in magnesium. I went out and bought some regular indian brown rice and they are fixed with a couple days. I try to stay away from the bagged chemicals and feed my soil that same thing I would eat. It's nice to not have another bag of chemicals laying around.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 10, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> my plants develop plenty of roots with no darkness lol. i just wonder if giving them a rest would just be beneficial in some way because after all, they evolved with darkness at night.
> 
> speaking of darkness at night.... i find it pretty funny that people freak out over a couple pinholes in their grow at night. Is it ever really, truly 100% dark outside every night? hell no. growers claim that pinholes cause hermies in their grow... when more likely it's stress, or genetics. this is just my common sense rambling. i have no fact to back this up, but i'm calling "myth busted" on this one. what you guys think?


If you are growing outdoors it is different. I've seen light leaks both delay the flowering of plants and cause hermaphrodites indoors.



ShLUbY said:


> well at night, photosynthetic processes just stop. plants will continue to grow but they use the sugars produced by photosynthesis that were stored up in leaves and in the roots. that's kinda why 24hrs works, because they don't really need the rest... but i'm sure they'd like it!


I could be mistaken here, but it was my understanding when plants are under 24 hours of light respiration happens during daylight hours. Not natural imo. I have also run 18/6 and 24/0 and I didn't see much if any gain from the additional light. To each their own. I prefer to save a little money and deal with a little less heat by utilizing a dark period. 

My 2¢,

P-


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## Pattahabi (Oct 10, 2015)




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## ShLUbY (Oct 10, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I prefer to save a little money and deal with a little less heat by utilizing a dark period.
> 
> My 2¢,
> 
> P-


i agree, i think i'm going to switch my plants to a dark period in veg... but i'm unsure of how to go about doing that from 24 hr..... should i just go like 1hr at first for a few days to a week... then 1.5hrs for a while... and just keep gradually doing it? i'm afraid they will flower if i go right to 4 or 6 hrs dark.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 10, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I could be mistaken here, but it was my understanding when plants are under 24 hours of light respiration happens during daylight hours.
> 
> P-


i'm pretty sure cellular respiration happens 24/7... the only thing that stops is photosynthesis.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 10, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i'm pretty sure cellular respiration happens 24/7... the only thing that stops is photosynthesis.


You are correct, respiration happens 24/7. I was thinking respiration increased in the dark cycle. So far this is all I found:

_http://preuniversity.grkraj.org/html/8_RESPIRATION.htm
In plants, respiration takes place both at day time as well as at night time. But the respiration is very low at day times particularly in tissues where cells are engaged in photosynthesis. This is because photosynthesis provides all the energy that is required for the cellular metabolism._


P-


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 10, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i agree, i think i'm going to switch my plants to a dark period in veg... but i'm unsure of how to go about doing that from 24 hr..... should i just go like 1hr at first for a few days to a week... then 1.5hrs for a while... and just keep gradually doing it? i'm afraid they will flower if i go right to 4 or 6 hrs dark.


As long as you don't give them 12 hours of darkness they can't flower. Feel free to drop it to your new schedule they will be fine.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 10, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> As long as you don't give them 12 hours of darkness they can't flower. Feel free to drop it to your new schedule they will be fine.


not true. i've switched a plant from a 24 schedule to a dark period and it flowered on me. I'm not saying that every strain will do this, but it did happen to me. i know they reveg but i really don't wanna go through all that... i might have to i guess....


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## Mohican (Oct 10, 2015)

Even strong flower nutes can trigger flower.


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 10, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> not true. i've switched a plant from a 24 schedule to a dark period and it flowered on me. I'm not saying that every strain will do this, but it did happen to me. i know they reveg but i really don't wanna go through all that... i might have to i guess....


Never had that happen to me. I would say just drop it an hour every once and a while if your real worried. Maybe drop the time to 14 on 10 off for a day or two and then increase it to whatever you want. Might trick it?


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## GreenSanta (Oct 11, 2015)

If you guys think plants need to rest in the dark, I think its a misconception. Why is it that Alaska always break world record on largest veggies? I believe plants will ''shut down'' for a part of the day whether they are getting a dark period or not. 

My main reason for doing 24/7 in veg room is because it makes for a more versatile veg room where I can reveg and or clone (also why is it we get better results cloning with 24/7 if roots development occurs in the dark? 

If you dont clone or reveg, then by all mean 18-6 schedule makes more sense but I wouldnt be worry, just use the veg schedule that works for you.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 11, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> I believe plants will ''shut down'' for a part of the day whether they are getting a dark period or not.


cellular respiration never stops, but light dependent reactions aka photosynthesis stops in darkness, which has nothing to do with cellular respiration. the plant never "shuts down". a lot of the processes that keep a plant running are a cyclic exchange of electrons and ions along with the forming and breaking of bonds in carrier molecules. these processes don't "shut down" in cellular respiration. just saying.

photosynthesis begins when chlorophyll is activated by light energy, and electron transport chain starts in the thylakoid cells i believe they're called. when light energy can no longer be accepted, ETC stops, proton pumps shut down, and the photosynthesis shuts down.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 11, 2015)

thanks for clearing this up, kinda what I meant


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## ShLUbY (Oct 11, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> I believe plants will ''shut down'' for a part of the day whether they are getting a dark period or not.


not really, but you're welcome lol.


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## hyroot (Oct 12, 2015)




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## NoTiller (Oct 15, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> well one would also think if your trying to be in set with mother nature then i would stay away from making teas and pouring it to leaving it to rain fall and natural occurring i guess teas if that is the case. But back to cover crop this is where i think not till is jumping all over the place or people are trying to do this when in fact cover crop was meant for use lets say farm land acres of land or big area


Theres a few reasons to use cover crops, main reason for me with cover crops is to "TILL" your no till beds because it will compact over time. Their roots till compacted soil, your previous crops old roots does the same as well. Some no tillers use gypsum and have worms in their soil beds for that reason also. Cover crops are supposed to die off when your canopy shades off all the light and be gone by the time you harvest. You then sprinkle more cover crop seeds on top at the beginning of each round then cover it with your compost/vermicompost and add your amendments. That being said, I dont see much reason to use it indoors in small pots. I stopped using cover crops myself. Different stokes for different folks, I dont have time to keep mixing up dirt so I no till. Works just as good if not better than any other soil recipe.


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 15, 2015)

Hey everyone. I hate to be "that guy" but I just recently started researching about organics these last couple of months and happened upon this thread about a week ago. I've been reading steadily but the amount of time it would take to get through 324 pages is insane. I have researched a good bit on super soil and was getting ready to go shopping to make my first batch until I started reading about the no till mainly because I was trying to find info on recycling super soil.so to the point, I'm still a couple years behind in this thread and was hoping Yall could share some of your up to date amendment/tea recipes, or at the least post me a link. I am currently running ebb and flow in coco and would like to dive into organics asap. That being said I know it's going to take a while to get some compost ready so I would also like some advice on a quick soil and nute mix I could throw together to get me started and keep me going while I create my own living soil.. Any aand all help is greatly appreciated.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 15, 2015)

Trichome_Madness said:


> Hey everyone. I hate to be "that guy" but I just recently started researching about organics these last couple of months and happened upon this thread about a week ago. I've been reading steadily but the amount of time it would take to get through 324 pages is insane. I have researched a good bit on super soil and was getting ready to go shopping to make my first batch until I started reading about the no till mainly because I was trying to find info on recycling super soil.so to the point, I'm still a couple years behind in this thread and was hoping Yall could share some of your up to date amendment/tea recipes, or at the least post me a link. I am currently running ebb and flow in coco and would like to dive into organics asap. That being said I know it's going to take a while to get some compost ready so I would also like some advice on a quick soil and nute mix I could throw together to get me started and keep me going while I create my own living soil.. Any aand all help is greatly appreciated.


hey man. I'm new as well to organics and I'm currently putting together my first mixes. i'm almost ready to plant 2 of my 20 gal no tills.

it took me about a week to read through the whole thread, but honestly the bulk of the information is in the first 75-100 pages. the rest i would just read leisurely. the information, honestly, has not changed very much at all. Lots of guy are running the basic mix that CANN posted on the first page about 3/4 of the way down. I lay off the rock dust to about 2-3 cups per cu.ft. a batch i just put together i'm doing the bio-char challenge just for the hell of it. maybe it will be worth the effort (which is not much) and i dunno 5 bucks i spent on 1.5 gal of biochar i charged myself. 

The main thing i can not stress to you enough is LET THE PLANT GROW ITSELF in organics. take care of the soil, FOCUS on the SOIL. soil health = plant health = the best herb man can grow indoors. microbes make food available for the plants, so keep your microbe populations happy and you have a happy environment.

KISS... keep it stupid simple. all the nutrient teas, enzyme teas, aloe drenchs, bioag products, living mulchs, and all that stuff are just little tips and tricks. you can honestly go START TO FINISH on just the soil, and a couple AACT's (compost teas) in the plant's cycle. water only. no ph, no worries. there are lots of guys on here that have plenty of evidence of this, and you will see it in the thread. the finest herb out there.

you asked about a simple soil mix and nute line to help you transition while you wait on soil to break down. One thing i am doing right now while i'm waiting on my microbes to do their thing in the soil, is just using the base mix + rock dust + oyster shell flour + pelletized gypsum. i'll be using compost tea once every 3-4 weeks on these plants and I picked up the vegamatrix line of bottles to run the plants i have in veg through flower and eventually i will phase out the vegamatrix when i have enough living soil in house.

that is all for now. see you around! good luck to ya.


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 15, 2015)

Thnx for the info. Ido plan to take a kiss aproach as that is wat im already doing. The biochar is interesting and i always have hardwood lump coal to keep the smoker bbq'n on the weekends so ill pulverize some and add it to the compost pile.What would you recommend as a base soil to start with? Also are there other amendments i could mix in that dont have to break down like ewc,maby kelp or somthing, so i dont have to buy any more bottles?I already have gh nutes that will be useless after my current grow.I also am curious if anyone can enlighten me why sub's ss recipe used straight burns plants but this method does not?


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 15, 2015)

Trichome_Madness said:


> Thnx for the info. Ido plan to take a kiss aproach as that is wat im already doing. The biochar is interesting and i always have hardwood lump coal to keep the smoker bbq'n on the weekends so ill pulverize some and add it to the compost pile.What would you recommend as a base soil to start with? Also are there other amendments i could mix in that dont have to break down like ewc,maby kelp or somthing, so i dont have to buy any more bottles?I already have gh nutes that will be useless after my current grow.I also am curious if anyone can enlighten me why sub's ss recipe used straight burns plants but this method does not?


I use homemade worm poo, Gypsum, Neem meal, Crab meal, Kelp, diatomaceous earth, brown rice, and alfalfa. All of these can be added to a soil mix and planted immediately except for the alfalfa. I always put alfalfa on top of my soil and let the worms drag it around. That should cover every base of the plants needs. I always put worm filled EWC on top of any of the amendments I lay down in my no till pot. Now you just have to figure out when to lay this down and that comes with learning your plants needs. Eventually you can get into fermented plant extracts and that is where the money is. I now feed the amendments to my FPE plants and use the FPE on my important plants.

I would go with 33% aeration, 33% filler like peat or some organic material like mediocre compost (but alive), 33% worm poo. The reason I don't go 66% worm poo is because it is very wet and nutrient rich (sometimes a bad thing). Biochar is bitchin'!

It has to do with the way the microbes process the material. In high nitrogen amendments like alfalfa and blood meal they heat up the soil. Not only that but they also process that material and turn it into organic salts (or salts). This water binding salt conversion happens with all organic nutrients, but not the heat. The heat and the salts limit then amount of water getting to the plant and it can cause the roots to dry out. Basically because of lack of water because microbes use the material and water then put out salts which binds the water up. This lack of water and heat in the root system then quickly kills the plant because the roots are all dying or dead.

I hope that makes sense

edit: 
I also want to point out that most pots will not make it to the end if they are not oversized. I run HUGE pots so I can feed a massive amount of nutrients after each harvest to the soil. Then plant a baby and watch it go. However, this is a bad practice unless you also get your soil tested.


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 16, 2015)

The main concern is that Im only using a 3x3 space.what size pots would Yall recommend I start seedlings in and what would be the smallest size I could run through flower without having to top dress halfway through.iv read that the plants should fade on there own but I would like to insure that happens. Just personal preference cause I love to see the colors come through.
Also could I use straight coco in place of peat or does peat hold a better colony?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 16, 2015)

Trichome_Madness said:


> The main concern is that Im only using a 3x3 space.what size pots would Yall recommend I start seedlings in and what would be the smallest size I could run through flower without having to top dress halfway through.iv read that the plants should fade on there own but I would like to insure that happens. Just personal preference cause I love to see the colors come through.
> Also could I use straight coco in place of peat or does peat hold a better colony?


start seedlings in solos and transplant up to 1 gal once they grow up a bit. no bigger than that. then after 3-4 weeks you can put them in whatever you want to.

there are debates about the coco vs. peat. certain people like one or the other. i haven't done any mixes with coco yet but i plan to just for my own experiments.

i would say if you did 4 medium sized plants in 7 gal fabrics 3x3 should be fine. you'll definitely have good light coverage on that canopy. i'd say you want them to finish no taller than 40" (including the height of the pot) in that space.


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 16, 2015)

I ask because currently I'm running in straight coco and I love everything about it besides the fact that I have to add all the nutes in. I think It would be better to use as a replacement for perlite or pumice.i would still use a layer of perlite on the bottom of the pot though.
How tall are 7 gallon smartpots? I should be able to achieve minimal height especially since I'm also gonna experiment with mainlining( that's how I found out about RIU) wich should be very helpful because the cross I made stretches like a Mofo.
But anyway, thanks for your thoughts I am hitting the hydro store tomarrow and I didnt want to spend money on stuff I don't need.


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## NoTiller (Oct 16, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I use homemade worm poo, Gypsum, Neem meal, Crab meal, Kelp, diatomaceous earth, brown rice, and alfalfa.


Do you use any other sources of silica other than DE?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 16, 2015)

Trichome_Madness said:


> I ask because currently I'm running in straight coco and I love everything about it besides the fact that I have to add all the nutes in. I think It would be better to use as a replacement for perlite or pumice.i would still use a layer of perlite on the bottom of the pot though.
> How tall are 7 gallon smartpots? I should be able to achieve minimal height especially since I'm also gonna experiment with mainlining( that's how I found out about RIU) wich should be very helpful because the cross I made stretches like a Mofo.
> But anyway, thanks for your thoughts I am hitting the hydro store tomarrow and I didnt want to spend money on stuff I don't need.


you can not replace the drainage with coco. the humus is very heavy when wet and will compact the coco down if there is no aeration. Pumice provides not only drainage, but also holds pockets of air within the pumice stone and also retains water at the same time. But wait, there's more! Pumice or other sources of aeration (rice hulls, lava rock which also contains silica @NoTiller, bio char, etc.) provide habitat for your microbes! this is why you need to keep your drainage material. I've read on here that perlite is not good for microbes but i'm not sure how factual that is, haven't looked into it myself. 

as for the containers, 7 gal is plenty of soil to do some long runners in like the 10-12 weekers. i'm starting to experiment with some fabric pots in the near future that are 7 and 10 gal. all my 20gal no tils i've mixed so far are fabric. i don't have any experience with the smart pots yet, they're just in the lineup.


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 17, 2015)

Trichome_Madness said:


> The main concern is that Im only using a 3x3 space.what size pots would Yall recommend I start seedlings in and what would be the smallest size I could run through flower without having to top dress halfway through.iv read that the plants should fade on there own but I would like to insure that happens. Just personal preference cause I love to see the colors come through.
> Also could I use straight coco in place of peat or does peat hold a better colony?


I would go with a 30 gallon minimum to get the best and most care free growth. There are some fabric pots that also feature a transplanting fabric pot. I would go with that. Honestly I would get as big of pots as you can and stuff your room full of soil. You have a lot more leeway that way. I found smaller pots were only a headache.


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 17, 2015)

NoTiller said:


> Do you use any other sources of silica other than DE?


I used to to use protekt until I ran out. I read online that the soil is at least 30% silicon by weight. I am trying to mimic nature so I started adding tons of forms of silica. Even though it isn't readily soluble it aids the soil structure. The application of protekt does a lot more than adding DE I just don't want another bottle. If you want to add silica and see results I would use the agsil or protekt.


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## Rrog (Oct 17, 2015)

Horsetail


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 17, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Horsetail


Yep he nailed it. Feeding plants to plants. But I did still see better results with the bottles when I used them. Just something I experienced


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## DonPetro (Oct 17, 2015)

Greensand


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 17, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Greensand


I do plan on getting greensand plus the ground here is mainly red clay I just have to aerate it enough. 
If you use 30 gal is that for just one plant? I'm trying to have 4 at a time plus I'm growing from regular seed so I have to cull males that's why i would rather use single pots.


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## Rrog (Oct 17, 2015)

Consider the time required to become bio-available. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would lump greensand in with other minerals as a slow release amendment. Great for long term recycling and no-till.


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 17, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Consider the time required to become bio-available. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would lump greensand in with other minerals as a slow release amendment. Great for long term recycling and no-till.


I'm trying to list things that I can mix and use right away and also have the other long term stuff on hand for the compost that I am starting. I just hope the stuff I can use right away is enough the take my plant through to finish. So far iv listed premium compost/ewc, gypsum,crab,kelp,pumice,peat,coco,neem. Please. Correct me if I'm wrong or if there is something I can add( this is for a batch that I can mix and use right away without waiting for activation)
I have also ordered aloe/coconut powder and full power.
Off topic- does anyone eat aloe for health benefits?


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 17, 2015)

Drinks are made with fresh aloe here. Good stuff


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 17, 2015)

Do i need a special brand of DE or will the stuff in the pest section of home cheapo work?


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## Kind Sir (Oct 17, 2015)

Uncle10 

10% off red wigglers at uncle jims wormfarm


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## GreenSanta (Oct 18, 2015)

You can generally find red wigglers for free in horse manure. Ideally a pile of pure manure that hasnt been mixed with bedding.


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 18, 2015)

I just made my first ever batch or soil.
2 cf mushroom compost
1 cf peat
1 cf ewc
1 cf lava rock pulverized to 1" pieces
.5 cf coco coir. About a gal of pulverized hardwood lump coal
2 cups alfalfa, 2 cups oyster, 2 cups green sand, 2 cups crab, 2 cups shrimp, 2 cups bio live, 1 cup de, 1 cup lime
Have to order neem meal so I'll mix that in when I get it and I was gonna use azomite but the shop only had a big bag and didn't want to spend 45$ on it. I probably could've use more of some admendments but didn't want to go overboard. I also put in several shoval scoops of red clay and fine leaf litter from the woods and a handful of worms. Came out just enough to fill a 45 gallon trash can to the rim. What do you guys think? Anything else I should add? What's the shortest time to let it sit before I can use it? I kept some ewc for a basic tea. I did order coconut, aloe, fulpower, diastatic malt powder which I'll use at a minimum. Want to keep it as kiss as possible. Thanks for the info guys after this hopefully I'll keep my spending on the low after the initial startup.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 18, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Consider the time required to become bio-available. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would lump greensand in with other minerals as a slow release amendment. Great for long term recycling and no-till.


this is how i've been mixing in my greensand.


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## Kind Sir (Oct 18, 2015)

What do you guys think about the above recipe? Looks pretty good, general recipe.

I was going to order the BIOLIVE from Down To Earth it has Fish bone meal, fish meal, alfalfa meal, crab meal, shrimp meal, lanbeinite, basalt, kelp meal, humic acid, mycorrhizai fungi, bennies. Anyone else use this? 

I heard someone say if you use this product (Dont remember specific product) from Down To Earth youll need to use more as its not as good or something


Ive seen a bunch of recipes but, anyone like to share their recipe?


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 18, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> What do you guys think about the above recipe? Looks pretty good, general recipe.
> 
> I was going to order the BIOLIVE from Down To Earth it has Fish bone meal, fish meal, alfalfa meal, crab meal, shrimp meal, lanbeinite, basalt, kelp meal, humic acid, mycorrhizai fungi, bennies. Anyone else use this?
> 
> ...


Ya I got it mainly for the fungi and bennies but used less than called for since I already added everything else.figured it wouldn't hurt to try


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## ShLUbY (Oct 18, 2015)

Trichome_Madness said:


> I just made my first ever batch or soil.
> 2 cf mushroom compost
> 1 cf peat
> 1 cf ewc
> ...


looks like you have 3 parts compost (EWC + mushroom) 1.5 part peat/coco and 1 part drainage. 

so by my calculations you need 1.5 more cuft. of peat/coco and 2 cuft. more drainage (smaller than 1" would be better, the existing 1 part @1" is fine the way it is)

the goal is equal parts peat/coco to compost/ewc to drainage. so in your case i just turned 1 cuft into 1 part. you follow me?

the basic formula for amendments you have selected is 1/2cup per cuft. For your mix, when you add the extra base materials you need bringing you to a total of 9 cuft., you would want a TOTAL of 4.5 cups oyster shell, 4.5 cups neem seed meal, 4.5 cups total of shrimp and/or crab meal, 2 cups of alfalfa (which you are already at), the lime you don't really need since you have oyster shell and crab meal which combined acts as a liming agent. 2 cups of greensand is fine, but you should get more rock dusts. really 1$ a lb. for rock dust is not a bad deal from the grow store. you want 2 cups of rock dust per cuft. so you need about 16 more cups of rock dust, and variety is always best.

if you do anything to this soil at all.... please take my word for it, you need more drainage. you can get a bag of growstone from the grow shop, its recycled glass product which is basically pumice. i like the product a lot. rice hulls are also a good drainage source. from what i've read on here, stay away from perlite. if i remember correctly it doesn't provide good habitat for microbes.

be sure to water your mix with an aerated compost tea after your mix is complete! you must let the soil sit for at least 4 weeks for biological processes to make food available.

EDIT: just saw you had the biolive in there too. i wouldn't add any more of that, and i would do a total of 4 cups instead of 4.5 cups of the amendment portions i suggested above


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 18, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> looks like you have 3 parts compost (EWC + mushroom) 1.5 part peat/coco and 1 part drainage.
> 
> so by my calculations you need 1.5 more cuft. of peat/coco and 2 cuft. more drainage (smaller than 1" would be better, the existing 1 part @1" is fine the way it is)
> 
> ...


Thnx for the advice. I was going to leave out I bag of the compost but it looked like I needed more when I was mixing( I read that peat doubles in size when it's wet) so the 1 cf I put in dry would turn into 2? I have plenty more peat and coco if I need to add more to balance the compost.
Would azomite be fine by itself? I cant find any other type of rock dust locally. As far as drainage would hydroton be ok to use because I have that already?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 18, 2015)

Trichome_Madness said:


> Thnx for the advice. I was going to leave out I bag of the compost but it looked like I needed more when I was mixing( I read that peat doubles in size when it's wet) so the 1 cf I put in dry would turn into 2? I have plenty more peat and coco if I need to add more to balance the compost.
> Would azomite be fine by itself? I cant find any other type of rock dust locally. As far as drainage would hydroton be ok to use because I have that already?


my peat has never doubled in size when i added moisture to it. 1/2 volume at the most, and i don't even see half volume most of the time. i would just do another 1cuft peat and .5 of coco and that'll take care of that. 

i would say no to the hydroton for you're missing a lot of drainage and that would be too bulky IMHO. that growstone is cheap like 25$ for a couple cubic ft of it. 

the point of the drainage material you select is to have something that will provide habitat for microbes, but also retain water and air at the same time! so the lava rock you have is great for this because it's porous. if you have a couple more cubic ft of lava rock i would do that. i'd say smash it up to 1/2" chunks this time. variety of size of drainage is good. 

the azomite will work for rock dust but if you are going to pay 45$ for the azomite anyway... GET THIS as it is much better bang for your buck, and make sure you use the www.boogiebrew.net/gyg link to get the 44.95 deal
http://www.boogiebrew.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/Rock-Box-Medley-Ad-11x8.5-WHITE.png


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## Kind Sir (Oct 18, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> my peat has never doubled in size when i added moisture to it. 1/2 volume at the most, and i don't even see half volume most of the time. i would just do another 1cuft peat and .5 of coco and that'll take care of that.
> 
> i would say no to the hydroton for you're missing a lot of drainage and that would be too bulky IMHO. that growstone is cheap like 25$ for a couple cubic ft of it.
> 
> ...


Shluby, just curious why you said no more biolive, is it bc it has multiple ingredients? What recipe are you most happy with?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 18, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Shluby, just curious why you said no more biolive, is it bc it has multiple ingredients? What recipe are you most happy with?


just for the purpose of measuring your own ingredients and dialing in a mix more if you need too. there's nothing wrong with the biolive. it just contains things that you already have in your mix that you can control individually. you know? you can use more of it though and cut back on a little of the other things some more that are already included in the biolive.


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## Kind Sir (Oct 18, 2015)

Yes good point thank you. Im new to organics and getting my things together, so just curious. Appreciate the answer.


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## GrowUrOwnDank (Oct 19, 2015)

Started my compost bucket. Just 5 gallons about half full now and I will keep adding. This soil will probably be used for my dwarf banana tree and lime tree, both are currently in 5 gallon buckets and will be up planted into maybe a 10 gallon. I don't want them to get too large. I plan to use the standard soil recipe. With Amazon Bloom soil, perlite and sphagnum peat moss. And I will add the compost after its done in a couple of months.

Here's what I've added to the compost so far.

Small branches at the bottom, dried grass clippings, dried tree leaves, green and dried leaves pulled off the banana tree, adding coffee grounds daily, ash from the wood stove. I don't crack too many eggs but plan to add egg shells when I do.

The plan is to make the compost and eventually the soil without spending any money. I do not plan to add many food scraps. Zero meat scraps.

Any tips? Am I on the right track? @hyroot? Thanks.


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## bizfactory (Oct 19, 2015)

7 week no till veg timelapse!

*https://streamable.com/x1ao*


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## AllDayToker (Oct 19, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> 7 week no till veg timelapse!
> 
> *https://streamable.com/x1ao*


Very cool, enjoying watching that.


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 19, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> 7 week no till veg timelapse!
> 
> *https://streamable.com/x1ao*


Cool man. Healthy girls


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## Kind Sir (Oct 20, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Myself, I go with 2 cups total per cf of the meals, however you choose to arrive at that, and 4 cups total per cf of minerals.
> 
> I usually make 4 cf soil at a time, and to that I go with 2 cups kelp meal, 2 cups crab shell meal, 2 cups neem seed meal, and 2 cups alfalfa meal. Then I add 10-12 cups of rock dusts, 2 cups of oyster shell flour, a cup of greensand, a cup of gyspsum, and maybe a cup of azomite (depending on what I have laying around).
> 
> When you recycle the soil, you can add 1/2 of the meals that you originally started with, and skip on the minerals until maybe your third or fourth run of that same soil



Are you happy with this soil ? Are those long lists necessary or are they just for diversity?


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 20, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> 7 week no till veg timelapse!
> 
> *https://streamable.com/x1ao*


i wanna learn how to do that guys, fucken kewl dont do it justice, great post!!!!!


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## AllDayToker (Oct 20, 2015)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> i wanna learn how to do that guys, fucken kewl dont do it justice, great post!!!!!


A wireless Webcam and a laptop and you're good to go.


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## Kind Sir (Oct 20, 2015)

Hey give me a legi soil recipe example


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## Kind Sir (Oct 20, 2015)

What brands online are high quality for compost and EWC
I heard "bu compost" is legit. They have wiggle worm brand EWC , 15LB for like 17$ but heard some negatives on it.


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## bizfactory (Oct 20, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> A wireless Webcam and a laptop and you're good to go.


USB webcam plugged into a laptop on wifi. I also have a live stream

http://67.164.178.160/

Lights are on 12/12 now so gonna be black a lot of the time


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 20, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Watering causes erosion and soil to compact. Cover crops help prevent that.
> 
> Even though the soil beneath the surface isn't disturbed. The flow of water causes erosion..
> 
> Outside its not just wind but rain too.


 lol Hyroot first of all i know you mean good, but in reality you got to stop googling and trying to play the you know your shit , i sense your fairly young we as gardeners do not need to worry to much about erosion most grow in pots or small section in a confined spot where buildings , and trees protect our gardens from extreme gusts of winds...
Most water erosion naturally is where ??? here is a hint what causes mountain / mud slides sloped hills etc so unless were growing on a hill side or some un even ground one would worry about possible water erosion ,, for us mostly causes of water is leaching not erosion ,,
same thing applies with winds although we mimic winds Indoor we do not see wind erosion or very little of it in our gardens only issues we see is top soil crusting or compacting 
people using cover crops to rid one thing unwanted weeds the top layer will in fact be compact in time and pending on the ratio of organic to soil will dictate compaction rate


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 20, 2015)

Figured i post a pic of a lower branch i chopped early wanted give it its smkes great 
started flowering naturally first week of Sept @ 42 days now leaving it to middle Nov or second Frost temps been - 4 degrees C to 18 average 12 degrees C last week weather has been great and she blowing up so had about 3 weeks of bad weather at beginning of flower 
Plant has only been watered by mother nature Rain fall 0 nutrients my soil used was 40 percent compost 40 percent top soil 5 percent live worms , 5 percent cardboard ( Worm food ) and 10 percent grass and with only top dressing of grass clippings couple times this summer 
250 - 300 gallons of soil made ,, it will be pretty much 7 months in that soil from start to finish


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## AllDayToker (Oct 20, 2015)

Plant looks good, trim job screams outdoor lmao.


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## Rrog (Oct 20, 2015)

That was fun!


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## ShLUbY (Oct 20, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> lol Hyroot first of all i know you mean good, but in reality you got to stop googling and trying to play the you know your shit , i sense your fairly young we as gardeners do not need to worry to much about erosion most grow in pots or small section in a confined spot where buildings , and trees protect our gardens from extreme gusts of winds...
> Most water erosion naturally is where ??? here is a hint what causes mountain / mud slides sloped hills etc so unless were growing on a hill side or some un even ground one would worry about possible water erosion ,, for us mostly causes of water is leaching not erosion ,,
> same thing applies with winds although we mimic winds Indoor we do not see wind erosion or very little of it in our gardens only issues we see is top soil crusting or compacting
> people using cover crops to rid one thing unwanted weeds the top layer will in fact be compact in time and pending on the ratio of organic to soil will dictate compaction rate


water erosion happens in pots, i know this because i've seen roots get exposed from watering with my watering can, and i also would see soil in the runoff trays (when i was watering for run off) from soil washing off the top of the pot, down the sides of the container and out the bottom. cover crops will help this from happening.

ALSO, the chemical signals sent by roots and received by roots of a different plant/species, tell the roots to grow in opposite directions, thus helping prevent the cannabis roots from growing too far to the top of the soil where they can be exposed to light and dryness. yes this can also be prevented by using a straw or any type of dead material that will act as mulching so long as it is not harmful to your plants. I'm going to be trying microgreens as a cover crop just for my own use. why not? diversity is great.


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 20, 2015)

Shullby of course your going to get some fine dust run off when new soil is used no different then flushing perlite before applied you will see run off of the dust but i can run out to my garden ill up a 5 gallon pail and lush it will see hardly fuck all for erosion 
dig a hole then fill it back up with same soil guess what it never fills the hole up equally the dirt vanished must of eroded or sometimes you dig a hole and when using same amount to fill it back up there is to much soil hey what gives 
but to say that every watering your soil is eroding i would have to say Bs only when its fresh loose soil you may lose some fine soil that was worthless to begin with


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## ShLUbY (Oct 20, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Shullby of course your going to get some fine dust run off when new soil is used no different then flushing perlite before applied you will see run off of the dust but i can run out to my garden ill up a 5 gallon pail and lush it will see hardly fuck all for erosion
> dig a hole then fill it back up with same soil guess what it never fills the hole up equally the dirt vanished must of eroded or sometimes you dig a hole and when using same amount to fill it back up there is to much soil hey what gives
> but to say that every watering your soil is eroding i would have to say Bs only when its fresh loose soil you may lose some fine soil that was worthless to begin with


longest run on sentence ever. lol

i get where you're coming from. once the soil "settles" we'll call it, there is little erosion happening, but again we'll still continue to have crusting. so, some kind of mulch, whether living or dead, will indefinitely be helpful to the soil. the choice is up to the grower.


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## Trichome_Madness (Oct 20, 2015)

Should I go with coconut water or diastatic malt? Also is tm-7 necessary if there are enough trace minerals in the soil?


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## ShLUbY (Oct 20, 2015)

i've never used the malt, but the coconut water works great by how my girls respond after i give it to them. you could get the malt, and then just buy a coconut water once in awhile from the supermarket and give it to them for some diversity...


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 20, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> What brands online are high quality for compost and EWC
> I heard "bu compost" is legit. They have wiggle worm brand EWC , 15LB for like 17$ but heard some negatives on it.


Why dont you just go to buildasoil.com.....


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## Kind Sir (Oct 20, 2015)

I definitely know of that site, I thought Worm Power was quality EWC but their shipping wasnt favorable unless necessary.


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## hyroot (Oct 21, 2015)

If you buy worm power brand. Get it direct from Worm Power in New York. It's cheaper than build a soil. The shipping is cheaper too.


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## bizfactory (Oct 21, 2015)

ROLS + blumats = root heaven!


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## Rrog (Oct 21, 2015)

You ever see any bad mites? Some have seen mites with their clover


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## bizfactory (Oct 21, 2015)

Rrog said:


> You ever see any bad mites? Some have seen mites with their clover


Not yet but this is my first go with clover. I read the same thing and it scared the shit out of me too lol


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## nvhak49 (Oct 21, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> ROLS + blumats = root heaven!


How are you liking th blumats with ROLS, what size pots you in. I have blumats too and love them just wondering how they work well in living soil?


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## bizfactory (Oct 21, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> How are you liking th blumats with ROLS, what size pots you in. I have blumats too and love them just wondering how they work well in living soil?


So far so good! No runaways or clogs. 2 Maxi drippers seem to keep my 15 gallon nice and moist, even in the far corners. This is my first blumat and first living soil run so hard to compare to anything else but I love them!


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## Rrog (Oct 21, 2015)

I love them also


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## nvhak49 (Oct 21, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> So far so good! No runaways or clogs. 2 Maxi drippers seem to keep my 15 gallon nice and moist, even in the far corners. This is my first blumat and first living soil run so hard to compare to anything else but I love them!


Oh sweet so those are the longer one than huh? I just have the normal ones. I'm slowly getting into ROLS too and will be getting 15 gallon pots soon too. Do you think two of the small ones for 15 would work ok or does a pot that big need the max ones that you have?


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## Rrog (Oct 21, 2015)

You want the Max carrot for larger pots


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## bizfactory (Oct 21, 2015)

I'm not saying the smaller ones won't work, but I just went with what was recommended. Give the small ones you already have a shot and replace them if they aren't working out!


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## nvhak49 (Oct 21, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> I'm not saying the smaller ones won't work, but I just went with what was recommended. Give the small ones you already have a shot and replace them if they aren't working out!


Yeah that's what I was thinking too. My first cycle of living soil will be in my 5 gallon pots. I would go to 15s now but I don't have enough cooked soil right now so i gotta wait till my next cycle.


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## Rrog (Oct 21, 2015)

Or you could check out various Blu mat threads and see that no one uses small carrots in a big pot...


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## nvhak49 (Oct 21, 2015)

I'll go with the big ones once I go to the 15 gallon pots, I'm sure I could sell the 6 small ones I have or just use them in my veg tent which I'll most likely use.


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## Rrog (Oct 21, 2015)

That's exactly what I do


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## NoTiller (Oct 21, 2015)

Do you guys use an air stone in your blumat reservoir? How about adding agsil or protek to it?


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## Rrog (Oct 21, 2015)

I don't use a res. I'm in soil


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## NoTiller (Oct 21, 2015)

Are you using blumats? If so what are the carrots connected to?


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## Rrog (Oct 21, 2015)

Pump boosted RO system, then the Blumat pressure reducer.


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## bizfactory (Oct 21, 2015)

NoTiller said:


> Do you guys use an air stone in your blumat reservoir? How about adding agsil or protek to it?


I just have a pump that stirs it up and make sure it's in the dark. The pump exchanges air better than an air stone apparently, search for "flooming". I add protek and no clogs or other issues there.


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## NoTiller (Oct 21, 2015)

Thanks for the replies. Could I get away with using protek and not run a pump? Also, in my raised bed I used landscaping lava rocks that are the size landscapers use and didnt break it down. Its 1/3 of my mix, do you think there will there be an issue with dry spots?


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Oh sweet so those are the longer one than huh? I just have the normal ones. I'm slowly getting into ROLS too and will be getting 15 gallon pots soon too. Do you think two of the small ones for 15 would work ok or does a pot that big need the max ones that you have?


I have used small blumats in large 35 gallon pots with over 15 inches of depth. The secret is to move the drip line closer the deeper the pot gets. Otherwise you will have runaway issues. I use 10 distribution drippers and 2 small blumats per 35 gallon container.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Most folks that I have had past discussions with would say that there is value in also measuring soil levels higher up, but the deep probe is best for deep soil. Not saying you can't water a plant with short carrots

I had this convo last year with Irrometer, who makes a great line of tensiometers. I'm looking at having one of those control the drip system, rather than a blumat carrot. More accurate and no runoff potential


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Most folks that I have had past discussions with would say that there is value in also measuring soil levels higher up, but the deep probe is best for deep soil. Not saying you can't water a plant with short carrots
> 
> I had this convo last year with Irrometer, who makes a great line of tensiometers. I'm looking at having one of those control the drip system, rather than a blumat carrot. More accurate and no runoff potential


Just trying to help the guy use what he already has instead of buying more pieces to the puzzle. what do you mean about measuring soil levels?

That blumat is a tensiometer. Google ollas. It is the same concept as a blumat and tensiometer except the olas do not create a vacuum. The blumats and tensiometer do because they have a cap/are a closed system.

edit: I added the ollas link because it is hard to find http://permaculturenews.org/2010/09/16/ollas-unglazed-clay-pots-for-garden-irrigation/


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Measuring Soil moisture levels, I'm meaning. Not measuring soil


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

How do you like the 35 gallon pots?


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> How do you like the 35 gallon pots?


Love them. I remember a post by microbe man where he explained the dimensions for his bed and he said he wouldn't go lower than 30 gallons for a living bed. My plants grow like trees indoors but it did not help the plants nutrition wise. I have to top dress amendments every month at least in flower. But i'll say it again I love them!


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

I'm looking at 25 or 30 geopots is why I ask. Thanks


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I'm looking at 25 or 30 geopots is why I ask. Thanks


I would upgrade. But what do you run now?


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## nvhak49 (Oct 22, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I have used small blumats in large 35 gallon pots with over 15 inches of depth. The secret is to move the drip line closer the deeper the pot gets. Otherwise you will have runaway issues. I use 10 distribution drippers and 2 small blumats per 35 gallon container.


I was thinking about getting the distribution drippers too and two small carrots but it might be cheaper in the long run to just get the longer carrots and use the distribution drippers too. Or do the longer carrots work well by themselves in like a 15 gallon pot?


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Last run I used 15 gallon geopots, 1 max carrot, three drippers


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## nvhak49 (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Last run I used 15 gallon geopots, 1 max carrot, three drippers


How many cycles hsve you ran in the 15 gallons. I was thinking about running 15s my next run but it depend on how many runs I could get out of them.


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

So what size carrots for a 10g pot?

I use smart pots so would thsee blumats work the same?


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## bizfactory (Oct 22, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> I was thinking about getting the distribution drippers too and two small carrots but it might be cheaper in the long run to just get the longer carrots and use the distribution drippers too. Or do the longer carrots work well by themselves in like a 15 gallon pot?


2x Maxi (long ones) are working fine in 15 gallons. I have the distribution drippers ready but haven't had to use them.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

For no till / recycle, going big will help a lot. That's why I'm headed to 25 or 30 gal 

15 gallon was great when I was growing height restricted and the plants weren't trees. 

It's just easier to amend with a larger pot since you have so much more headroom


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> I was thinking about getting the distribution drippers too and two small carrots but it might be cheaper in the long run to just get the longer carrots and use the distribution drippers too. Or do the longer carrots work well by themselves in like a 15 gallon pot?


I have never used the maxi. I'm sure the moisture distribution is the same. 

I read on the blumat forum that the maxi makes the top of the soil too dry so I didn't upgrade.


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Last run I used 15 gallon geopots, 1 max carrot, three drippers


Are you upgrading for bigger plants or was the soil life limited in the smaller 15 gallon?

edit: answered above


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## bizfactory (Oct 22, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I have never used the maxi. I'm sure the moisture distribution is the same.
> 
> I read on the blumat forum that the maxi makes the top of the soil too dry so I didn't upgrade.


The top of my soil is always moist, even in the corners. I was worried too but it's been working out. You can also adjust that a bit by extended the drip host further from the carrot so it takes more water to "turn off" the carrot.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

I'll have 9 foot ceiling instead of 50", so plants will be bigger

I'm hoping to get 10-12 cycles outta them. We'll see


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I'll have 9 foot ceiling instead of 50", so plants will be bigger
> 
> I'm hoping to get 10-12 cycles outta them. We'll see


Amazing! I'm dreaming for that day. Good luck can't wait to see those babies.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Me too. Lol


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## nvhak49 (Oct 22, 2015)

I'll just get another 6 normal small size carrots and the drippers and see how that works out once I get the 15 gallon pots. I'd go bigger but I only have 7ft of head room but I'll be scrogging now.


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

Can someone give me a link to these blumat forums?

I feel like this is something that would improve my plants.


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## 4ftRoots (Oct 22, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Can someone give me a link to these blumat forums?
> 
> I feel like this is something that would improve my plants.


https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=111046


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Feel free to post questions here, too. I think you'll see my posts in that previous link


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

Alright cool thank you both.

Not currently home so can't start getting into yet but yeah been watching the recent convo and I think this dip system will improve my growing and plants.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Check out that groovy thread and notice that pretty much everyone really felt that a constantly-moist soil was optimal for plants and soil. No runoff. Only moist

The exception would be when I would let the soil dry for a day because I was going to drench it with a compost slurry, etc.

In the next round, I'm wondering what role red wigglers might play for me. Will they live? Will they grab the surface mulch amendments and bring it deep? That would be pretty helpful.


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Check out that groovy thread and notice that pretty much everyone really felt that a constantly-moist soil was optimal for plants and soil. No runoff. Only moist
> 
> The exception would be when I would let the soil dry for a day because I was going to drench it with a compost slurry, etc.
> 
> In the next round, I'm wondering what role red wigglers might play for me. Will they live? Will they grab the surface mulch amendments and bring it deep? That would be pretty helpful.


So what do you do when you want to feed them a compost/vermicompost/castings tea? Just close a valve in the system for a little while and water yourself?


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## nvhak49 (Oct 22, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> So what do you do when you want to feed them a compost/vermicompost/castings tea? Just close a valve in the system for a little while and water yourself?


 I was just going to ask the same thing too, cuz I feed them teas and top dress too would you have to water those in by hand the top dress or would the blumats water them enough if you had the distribution drippers too? Sorry for all the stupid questions. I be use'd them in 5gallons in coco and loved them but I'm making the switch to no till.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> The exception would be when I would let the soil dry for a day because I was going to drench it with a compost slurry, etc.


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## nvhak49 (Oct 22, 2015)

I would think if you have your blumats set and you feed teas or top dress and hand water it in the blumats would shut off since the soil is wet than once it dried out enough the blumats would turn back on and start dripping again so you wouldn't have to let the soil dry out or am I wrong about that?


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

That's what I thought, thank you! 

Have you ever thought of adding something like an aquarium heater to the water res., if you used one?

I know it wouldn't be necessary, but figured maybe slightly warmer water would be a little easier on the roots the room temp. 

Maybe it's not big enough difference to matter?


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

I ran and will run again from the RO filter thru the Blumat pressure reducer to the drippers. So no res for me


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> I would think if you have your blumats set and you feed teas or top dress and hand water it in the blumats would shut off since the soil is wet than once it dried out enough the blumats would turn back on and start dripping again so you wouldn't have to let the soil dry out or am I wrong about that?


When the BM is dialed in, there's no runoff but it won't handle much more water. Letting it dry for a day allows more dumping


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## nvhak49 (Oct 22, 2015)

That makes sense I'll mess with it and see how it works I still have a few weeks in veg till I get them settled into there final pots.


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I ran and will run again from the RO filter thru the Blumat pressure reducer to the drippers. So no res for me


I was just saying if you did have a res, I saw in previous post you run from your RO.

Just a hypothetical thought. Figured a little warmer water then room temp might be better. Kind of like how they have heatpads or heated trays for seedlings and clones. But you'd be warming the water in the res.

Might not make that big of difference who knows haha.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

I think the huge mass of soil retains temp and the drip isn't a big deal. Also, the drip lines are dark and help warm. The fact that they're rubber doesn't insulate the cold water


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I'm looking at 25 or 30 geopots is why I ask. Thanks


 man why don't you make your own pots like i did even made air vents  for better gas exchange and my pots i made before i transplant into them


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I think the huge mass of soil retains temp and the drip isn't a big deal. Also, the drip lines are dark and help warm. The fact that they're rubber doesn't insulate the cold water


Well that pretty much solves my theory haha, thanks.

I have some questions but I feel like I should be able to find them on my own, haven't attempted searching yet so not going to just be lazy lol.

I do have one question right now though, will these work with smart pots? Ever since I did a side by side with them I have never used any other pots. Also working with 10g pots right now. I don't do no till, basically just reuse the soil and add amendments here and there when needed. I try to feed enough basic microbe teas to have a lively microbe systems and try to keep it alive best I can while it sits and waits for the next round.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

I use geopots - same thing. The breathable sides marries up great with drip


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I use geopots - same thing. The breathable sides marries up great with drip


Awesome!


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 22, 2015)

Fabric pots suck for indoor growing to much of a fucking mess usually occurs 
and lets not forget RH issues mold issues the list goes on wet floors dirty floors 
Now people will pace them in containers to avoid being what ever 6 plants but again it may help with wet floors but it doesn;t correct the bad bacteria and fungus growing in that lower damp area


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## nvhak49 (Oct 22, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Fabric pots suck for indoor growing to much of a fucking mess usually occurs
> and lets not forget RH issues mold issues the list goes on wet floors dirty floors
> Now people will pace them in containers to avoid being what ever 6 plants but again it may help with wet floors but it doesn;t correct the bad bacteria and fungus growing in that lower damp area


I've never had any issues with my smart pots. I had some leak issues before I got saucers but now I just water till I get a little run off and stop. My next run I'll be using clean root which are little stand plates that have holes in them and you put your fabric pots on top of them so the bottom of the bot isn't sitting in water so it can breathe and air prune the roots. I love my fabric pots and won't ever use plastic ones again.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

Fabric pots excel in indoor grows. Hundreds of threads all over the Internet document in this. I wouldn't use anything else.

I built short carts with wire mesh tops do I can wheel them around with full air under the pot

And I simply don't water to runoff. If I do, the little cart catches it


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## AllDayToker (Oct 22, 2015)

Yeah like I said the results on a side by side I did was a HUGE difference in size. 

Grow a clone in a 1g clay or plastic pot, and out another clone in a 1g smart pot, and watch for yourself.

I mean there is no comparison in my experience.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

It's so natural


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 22, 2015)

Ever since i got rid of pots and went to tote grows with out any run off holes and knowing plant needs i went from 4 - 7 oz plants Vegged 5 weeks to 14 - 18 0z plants with 5 weeks vegged growth rates 3 - 4 " daily @ 5 weeks its a tree


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## ShLUbY (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Fabric pots excel in indoor grows. Hundreds of threads all over the Internet document in this. I wouldn't use anything else.
> 
> I built short carts with wire mesh tops do I can wheel them around with full air under the pot
> 
> And I simply don't water to runoff. If I do, the little cart catches it


going to buy some castors to make my own dollies, or buy 4 wheeler dollies, whichever is cheaper, and putting the wire mesh on those. right now i have my fabrics sitting on some outdoor shade cloth material all folded up to keep them off the ground.

Edit: i too, like rrog am not aiming to water for runoff.


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## Rrog (Oct 22, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> going to buy some castors or 4 wheeler dollies, whichever is cheaper, and putting the wire mesh on those. right now i have my fabrics sitting on some outdoor shade cloth material all folded up to keep them off the ground.


Mine were originally janky but very functional. Next edition will be a small shallow plastic pan under the screen. All on the roller bearings.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 22, 2015)

Ha i just wanted to share this with you guys cause it made me laugh pretty hard...

i go to the grow store today because i needed some 7 gal geopots in a pinch. I'm talkin a bit with the guy at the counter about switching to living soil and the benefits of it, and being able to recycle your soil.

and he says, "so how do you know that you flushed out all the stuff from the last grow when you go to reuse the soil?"

this was just slightly after he was telling me about how people in there have been trying organics, but, and I quote, "always come back for the bottles."

good stuff.


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 22, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Mine were originally janky but very functional. Next edition will be a small shallow plastic pan under the screen. All on the roller bearings.


Rrog you got a pic somewhere of your carts? Curious


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## Pattahabi (Oct 22, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Fabric pots suck for indoor growing to much of a fucking mess usually occurs
> and lets not forget RH issues mold issues the list goes on wet floors dirty floors
> Now people will pace them in containers to avoid being what ever 6 plants but again it may help with wet floors but it doesn;t correct the bad bacteria and fungus growing in that lower damp area


I've been rocking 100 gallon fabric pots indoors for about a year now - love em.

P-


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 23, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Fabric pots excel in indoor grows. Hundreds of threads all over the Internet document in this. I wouldn't use anything else.
> 
> I built short carts with wire mesh tops do I can wheel them around with full air under the pot
> 
> And I simply don't water to runoff. If I do, the little cart catches it


Few vapes I can picture that, chrs


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2015)

I've posted pics before. I think on this forum, too. Now I can't find my pics on RIU


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 23, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I've posted pics before. I think on this forum, too. Now I can't find my pics on RIU


No worries Rrog high pics are worth more than 1000 words . KISS is what Ill do


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2015)

Not that the carts I made are spectacular, but I'll post a pic somehow.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 23, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Fabric pots suck for indoor growing to much of a fucking mess usually occurs
> and lets not forget RH issues mold issues the list goes on wet floors dirty floors
> Now people will pace them in containers to avoid being what ever 6 plants but again it may help with wet floors but it doesn;t correct the bad bacteria and fungus growing in that lower damp area



I like big fabric pots.......5-10-20-now i think its 25-30's.......
 One thing i always hated about smaller pots was seeing white roots trying to pop thru the bottom, well they were popping thru and drying up and that bothered me at the time so i bought "tomato pots" they called em at my local store for stuff. This was a pro-mix lock out my wife had caused by getting heavy handed with feedings. I like learning new things from you guys too. i'm growing till i die kids!!!!


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## GreenSanta (Oct 23, 2015)

Hey everyone, What are your thoughts on woodbugs? (woodloose, rolly polly...) So far I have never worried about them, I think they are kinda beneficial but I do have some containers where they are out of control, literally thousands of them, I lift the mulch up and I see a living soil!! However, they do eat seedlings and a little bit of plant matter on smaller tender plants. Anyone?


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 23, 2015)

I'm a complete noob to these bugs, watching so i can learn........i did find this sexy bitch though.......
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodlouse_spider


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## GreenSanta (Oct 23, 2015)

yeah I mean I think they might be beneficial like earthworms, I just transplanted a plant in a container that was full of them on purpose just to see how well it might do. But at the same time I am a little worried lol. Pretty cool to see the soil so alive though I mean you just look under the mulch and there is stuff moving everywhere!! As long as they dont eat the ladybugs larvae that might be kicking around...

Also, has anyone here had any luck raising ladybugs indoor, or keeping a healthy population? I am experimenting with various mulch to see if it might help, I wish I didnt have to keep buying them.


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2015)

Since the invasion of Chinese look-alikes, I don't like ladybugs anymore


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 23, 2015)

Not only that ladybugs are attracted to hid light in a kamikaze kinda way.........wish i could raise jumping spiders.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 23, 2015)

Yeah I noticed,... I have to setup a fan blowing at the 400w MH so they dont cook on it... but my setup is almost 100% LEDs and they tend to die in the fans... my lights are full of dead ladybugs :/ I gotta clean em soon. Whats the problem with the chinese look alikes are they a pest? did you have them in your garden?


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## Pattahabi (Oct 23, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> yeah I mean I think they might be beneficial like earthworms, I just transplanted a plant in a container that was full of them on purpose just to see how well it might do. But at the same time I am a little worried lol. Pretty cool to see the soil so alive though I mean you just look under the mulch and there is stuff moving everywhere!! As long as they dont eat the ladybugs larvae that might be kicking around...
> 
> Also, has anyone here had any luck raising ladybugs indoor, or keeping a healthy population? I am experimenting with various mulch to see if it might help, I wish I didnt have to keep buying them.


This is just my experience, ladybugs are fun to play with, but they don't really do much as far as controlling an infestation. I have TONS of the pill bug rolly pollys in my containers. They are shredders and help break down material. Personally, I have never had any problem with them eating plants. It's my understanding they like dead plant matter.

Peace!

P-


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## ShLUbY (Oct 23, 2015)

just made my first base mix with the rice hulls and growstone split 50/50... the rice hulls are awesome! like the feel and look of the soil when saturated with them in the mix.

except for the rock dusts, OSF, and gypsum, i left the mix generally unamended because i'll be using the vegamatrix for these ones. i'm about to get a big batch of amended soil going when i get caught up on these so i can start using the amended soils all the time and phase out the vegamatrix. it's just to get me through till i have all my soil made.

do you guys think i'd be able to recycle and amend the soil i use the vegamatrix products in? was thinking about using it all for making no-till 30 gal vegetable beds to throw under some T5's in the late winter. can't really see the vegamatrix hurting the soil all that much since they promote microbial soils...


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## hyroot (Oct 23, 2015)

Lady bugs don't do shit but climb into lights and die. Outdoor they just fly away.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 23, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Lady bugs don't do shit but climb into lights and die. Outdoor they just fly away.


Ladybugs do work, better as a preventative, but also they can save a crop if you buy enough of them. The problem with them is unless you can create an environment for them to multiply, they will never eliminate pests completely, the ladybugs larvae do most of the damage.

As far as them dying in the lights, I have to open my LEDs and clean them up now but it has been a couple + years of ladybugs in the grow room. Unless you have cool tubes I would not bother with ladybugs and HIDs though...

I have gotten rid of spider mites before, with predatory mites and ladybugs together. But I have had spider mites in the room for several months now. My grow has been perpetual for years now and I like it that way, I couldnt do without ladybugs, I hate when they are unavailable and in my opinion they are worth the money.

What are you guys doing for spider mites?


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2015)

Hypoaspis?


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 23, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> Ladybugs do work, better as a preventative, but also they can save a crop if you buy enough of them. The problem with them is unless you can create an environment for them to multiply, they will never eliminate pests completely, the ladybugs larvae do most of the damage.
> 
> As far as them dying in the lights, I have to open my LEDs and clean them up now but it has been a couple + years of ladybugs in the grow room. Unless you have cool tubes I would not bother with ladybugs and HIDs though...
> 
> ...


Chili and garlic pestled up. About a 1/2 tsp worth in a spray bottle. I sprayed a few evenings last year they were done


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## Rrog (Oct 23, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I've been rocking 100 gallon fabric pots indoors for about a year now - love em.
> 
> P-


Pattahabi is sorta like a god, isn't he?


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## GreenSanta (Oct 23, 2015)

The only reason why I had a bit of a spider mites infestation (besides the heat) during the summer is that I couldnt order ladybugs for the longest time. If they are available all Winter I will be laughing...



Rrog said:


> Hypoaspis?


I have used them before but cant get them anymore... I think I used them for thrips though. The problem with most beneficials is that they need a fairly high relative humidity... I like to keep my room at 40%.



Vnsmkr said:


> Chili and garlic pestled up. About a 1/2 tsp worth in a spray bottle. I sprayed a few evenings last year they were done


I have used habaneros pepper spray, never with garlic though. You most have caught them right away. I dont like that it probably kills a lot of beneficial insects? 

One thing I always wonder is if ladybugs also feed on predatory mites or not.


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## Mohican (Oct 23, 2015)

Chili garlic spray - nice! Now I am hungry!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 23, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Pattahabi is sorta like a god, isn't he?


Something more like this I'd imagine.




P-


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## Pattahabi (Oct 23, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> What are you guys doing for spider mites?


Neem/Karanja oil emulsified with potassium silica (2tsp neem, 1tsp protekt per gal water) then add to tepid water preferably with some aloe in it. Shake the piss out of it and spray 3x, once every three days, every single leaf top and bottom.

Edit: spray immediately. Mix up a new batch each time.

hth,



P-


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 23, 2015)

lol got to love these witch remidies for mites had mites once in 25 years of growing only once Personally if someone gets mites then they are to blame s far as i am concerned 
Where i used to live clones were in abundance i mean any strain out there would take a week and i would have them ,, and any clones i ever got was treated as if it had insects or disease and there fore quarantined usually out in the shed
Organic or not these girls were dunked in Bug be gone forget the spraying shit i mean dunked with chem poison upside down up to soil with Bug B gone and quarantined for min 2 weeks with repeated applications
before entering actual grow room usually i would take them out of domes transplant them into sterile soil and and pots dunked and into new dome tray throwing out the dome tray that it came in ..
at the beginning of plants life its much better to nail it with one time chem insect kill then multiple attempts with watered back organic pesticides one shot one kill more or less 
no need to worry about chemicals as there clones they will grow out of it 
but that is just how i roll cant be bothered fucking around i want them gone now


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## ShLUbY (Oct 23, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> lol got to love these witch remidies for mites had mites once in 25 years of growing only once Personally if someone gets mites then they are to blame s far as i am concerned
> Where i used to live clones were in abundance i mean any strain out there would take a week and i would have them ,, and any clones i ever got was treated as if it had insects or disease and there fore quarantined usually out in the shed
> Organic or not these girls were dunked in Bug be gone forget the spraying shit i mean dunked with chem poison upside down up to soil with Bug B gone and quarantined for min 2 weeks with repeated applications
> before entering actual grow room usually i would take them out of domes transplant them into sterile soil and and pots dunked and into new dome tray throwing out the dome tray that it came in ..


this is what i do, except without the poison. i just use the captain jacks dead bug, make a dunk and do that every 3 days for three treatments. works great if you're considering taking a cut from someone. learned my lesson the first time lol. they're so much easier to take care of when the plant is clone sized too. upside down, dunk and done.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 23, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> lol *got to love these witch remidies for mites had mites once in 25 years of growing only once Personally if someone gets mites then they are to blame s far as i am concerned *
> Where i used to live clones were in abundance i mean any strain out there would take a week and i would have them ,, and any clones i ever got was treated as if it had insects or disease and there fore quarantined usually out in the shed
> *Organic or not these girls were dunked in Bug be gone forget the spraying shit * *i mean dunked with chem poison upside down up to soil with Bug B gone* and quarantined for min 2 weeks with repeated applications
> before entering actual grow room usually i would take them out of domes transplant them into sterile soil and and pots dunked and into new dome tray throwing out the dome tray that it came in ..
> ...


Do you work at a hydrostore?

Just curious,

P-


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 23, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> The only reason why I had a bit of a spider mites infestation (besides the heat) during the summer is that I couldnt order ladybugs for the longest time. If they are available all Winter I will be laughing...
> 
> 
> I have used them before but cant get them anymore... I think I used them for thrips though. The problem with most beneficials is that they need a fairly high relative humidity... I like to keep my room at 40%.
> ...


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 23, 2015)

though I think the best way to control mites is to not get them in the first place. I am pretty sure that the majority of us have experienced mites at some point though and know how to manage them if they do decide to rear their ugly heads


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 23, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Do you work at a hydrostore?
> 
> Just curious,
> 
> P-


lol No but i got enough shares or spent enough money to say i fucking own one lol


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## GreenSanta (Oct 23, 2015)

Like I said, its been a perpetual grow for years, and I use compost and soil from outside, so soon or later you might introduce pest that way. To nuke the whole container with a bug killer whether orgasmic or not before placing in the grow room goes against the ROLS philosophy in my opinion. As you can see on the pictures, the flower room always has plants at all stage of growth so spraying anything in those conditions isnt ideal.

MissJack = Senora Ampero X Pennywise 
The plants in the very corner of the room are a cross of ((Chemo X Respect) X Ancient OG) Smells like blueberry probably from the blueberry in the lineage of Snow Lotus... my one keeper at this point.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 24, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> Chili and garlic pestled up. About a 1/2 tsp worth in a spray bottle. I sprayed a few evenings last year they were done


I have chili powder from bolut jolokias, no really.....and i will follow your recipe to a t if i can use the balut powder to knock em down, i think it's great that darth vapor dosnt have pest issue's.......the rest of us have to accept the fact that they can be anywhere in organic n-p-k sources, and tbh with easy peasy recipe's like this i really don't mind. With everything else that could go wrong i hate to admit it but ive kinda just accepted the fact that they may show up, so i have an arsenal at the ready.....i can see pattahabi mixing that soil.........god damn man! Go big!


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 24, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> Like I said, its been a perpetual grow for years, and I use compost and soil from outside, so soon or later you might introduce pest that way. To nuke the whole container with a bug killer whether orgasmic or not before placing in the grow room goes against the ROLS philosophy in my opinion. As you can see on the pictures, the flower room always has plants at all stage of growth so spraying anything in those conditions isnt ideal.
> 
> MissJack = Senora Ampero X Pennywise
> The plants in the very corner of the room are a cross of ((Chemo X Respect) X Ancient OG) Smells like blueberry probably from the blueberry in the lineage of Snow Lotus... my one keeper at this point.





VTMi'kmaq said:


> I have chili powder from bolut jolokias, no really.....and i will follow your recipe to a t if i can use the balut powder to knock em down, i think it's great that darth vapor dosnt have pest issue's.......the rest of us have to accept the fact that they can be anywhere in organic n-p-k sources, and tbh with easy peasy recipe's like this i really don't mind. With everything else that could go wrong i hate to admit it but ive kinda just accepted the fact that they may show up, so i have an arsenal at the ready.....i can see pattahabi mixing that soil.........god damn man! Go big!


 Hey Guys just wanted to say Sorry if i come across as a prick sometimes to some of you , or all of you haha i mean good ,, always ound whe bring out side soil into our indoor grows its becomes a cluster fuck with insects everybody is always worried about living organic soil which is so simple to put in soil its not even funny..
If anyone is using outdoor soil and bringing it inside ??? 
They should really consider sterilizing the soil and starting all over, Even if chemical nutrients were used in your soil your soil is not dead but damaged
First and foremost, DON'T go wasting your money on all these miracle products, they are unnecessary, Don't go buying into all these products, your getting fooled out of your wallet!
The best thing to add to your soil:
-Compost(make yourself,etc)
-plant matter(cover crops/green manures)
-mulch(again plant matter, leaves,etc)
-get a carbon water filter and filter the chlorine
-compost tea(make yourself, simple 5 gallon bucket($3), a water pump($10) and some compost(free?, but is really priceless!) simple as that..
- did I say compost? Compost,Compost,compost
I would just keep adding compost, planting cover crops/green manures, an continue mulching.. That's the best way for your soil, as well as your wallet! Please don't get foole an buy all these products, it's unnecessary.
I have practiced Sterilization of soil on every grow from the time i was 10 years old, its just common practice now. And a smart practice. we have to forget that there is only one way for ROLS and no other cause that is a crock of shit there are hundreds of ways to get from point A to point B, 
I have moved away from family practice where we own a big botanic garden and like ALL botanic gardens all there used soil is sterilized and re charged , and re used this not only assures us that the plant in question is bug free its also insures us that its also disease free .
I used to start our green houses in middle of February and start seed runs as well as clone approx 350,000 annuals for up coming season sales etc , I have worked with more soils then most will see in there life time trust me on that 
And being around certified botanists all my life one learns allot ..
so with that said everyone has to to relax on the ROLS so many ways to do it successfully and there is no such thing as this is the right way or that is the wrong way 
Using strong chemicals or a sure kill method to rid insects ( mites aphids etc ) 
Same thing applies Do not kid your self Yes even organic farmers use harsh chemicals as a last resort to rid infestation ,,, why should we be any different ??? if you really think about ..
Now i am not going to say what ever its your plants your grow , do what ever , but to think by using 10 times more the application to rid the problem is being better or more efficient is a wrong way to think about it . by the time you see insect issues the damage already has been done there easily on there 3rd generation - 6 generation of off spring and this is a problem . not only has your plants been attacked there weak now and getting weaker by the day .. so yes even going with this organic witch craft recipe your hurting your plants even more by stressing it out every application .. And with that said spraying plants ?? throw that idea down the drain YOU NEVER GET THEM ALL you may think yeah i killed them ,, But sure enough 5th week in flower they popped there ugly heads out at you again 
And NOW your fucked 
We see it all the time don't we ??? best way to rid these fuckers is by dunking them completely into solution and moving plant up n down or a min or 2 
i have used 50 gallon drums i plants are Big use netting string what ever tie it up so that you can get it into the barrel 
We are all here to help each other some my take a growers advice or not again its All up to you 
But as far as i am concerned Dont fuck around when it comes to insect issues kill them fuckers once n for all and that is with strong Chem insecticide


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## GreenSanta (Oct 24, 2015)

so you sterilize your compost before you bring it indoor? you would be losing all the benefits... 
True that organic farmers use stuff to rid of infestations, but thats conventional organic, and does not mean its good.
no doubts that you know what you are doing though, to each his own.


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## hyroot (Oct 24, 2015)

What is a certified botanist? I'm pretty sure to be a botanist you need at least a BA in botany not a certification. Most have MA and ph d's as well.

Not trying to attack you. I've just honestly never heard of a certified botanist.

I'm a certified audio and video engineer and I also have an AA in audio and video engineering. There are no BA'S offered for that field.

I used to be certified in A+ , MCSE, and MCSD. When I was going for my Computer Science BA before switching to audio. I never renewed or retook tests for those.


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## Kind Sir (Oct 24, 2015)

I was looking at having some neem/karanja cake(meal) and a small thing of neem oil from neemresource shipped to wisconsin. It says you can get 5lb karanja cake & 5lb of neem cake for 34$ INCLUSIVE of shipping. Does that mean including? 

It says 5lb for 10$ and I assume thats before shipping, anyone have a shipping quote example


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 24, 2015)

Inclusive meand included


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## littlejacob (Oct 25, 2015)

Bonjour
Hi organik growerz...!
I am from France and I am interested in ROLS...but we do not have all the organic products available in U.S!
There is a few shop who sell some in France!
The one I think about is called Terralba, and they have a shop on ebay so if someone could help me making a lisf of products I should add to my soil to improve it! I would be thankful!
I think about buying a ACT kit in the future to brew tea...
And what kind of soil bag should I use for base...the only "bio" soil I can source is Canna bio or plagron batmix (I think lightmix biobizz is not only organic)
If there is E.U resident here with good adress for organic...I will take it
Have a great day ★


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## GreenSanta (Oct 25, 2015)

Jacob there are hundreds of recipes and amendments ideas throughout this thread. I recommend you start reading...

The most important ingredient in all recipes is good compost, the first thing you should do is find somewhere you can buy quality compost locally to get you going and then start making your own. A good recipe and a good mulch is all you need to grow dank, ACTs are far from being necessary.


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## abe supercro (Oct 25, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> I was looking at having some neem/karanja cake(meal) and a small thing of neem oil from neemresource shipped to wisconsin. It says you can get 5lb karanja cake & 5lb of neem cake for 34$ INCLUSIVE of shipping. Does that mean including?
> 
> It says 5lb for 10$ and I assume thats before shipping, anyone have a shipping quote example


Just email the lady and she's prompt about helping with your order.




Darth what the hell are you talking about using heavy chemicals and sterilizing your soil? This is an organic thread and you reach for the napalm citing all your 'certified' grower buds do the same. thought you had clean fresh air up there in canada, IF that's even where you are from. tbh i don't believe half of what you say because of all the _unattributed_ google images and cut and paste u do.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 25, 2015)

Any of you guys using balut jolokia powder or similar to ward off pests? I'd like to use the powder i got to attack some fliers, anyone have a decent recipe?


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## littlejacob (Oct 25, 2015)

Bonjour
@GreenSanta is wormcasting's some kind of compost?
I really want to try a very basic recipe...like wc 20%/coco20%/zeolite 10%/soil bag50% + batguano bloom 20 gr for each 3 gallon pot (for bloom only!) Do you think it would be ok?
Have a nice day!


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## GreenSanta (Oct 25, 2015)

petitjacob, wormcasting c'est vermicompost en francais.... worm poop! THE BEST FERTILIZER ON EARTH


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## ShLUbY (Oct 25, 2015)

@Darth Vapour 

wait til i tell you all about my gluten free organic gardening methods...


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 25, 2015)

lol gluten free
And yes Looking outside right now i see northern lights dancing in the sky lol i was Abe i was saying if anyone tends to bring out door soil into there indoor gardens sterilizing the soil is a grand idea ,, does not take nothing to recharge soil shit some compost and some bacto and your golden again
Also was talking about insects which do you think will do more harm one application of chem insecticide to rid the problem or 10 - 20 applications to rid the problem
remember normally, by the time you see insects mites etc its not infected its fucking infested so damage has been done plant is weaker etc .. so going with a label brand organic insecticide remember insecticide or organic bug control is POISON which ever way you look at it if it kills a insect that is right ??? science is just beginining to understand soil biology but guess what pot heads have it down pact lol kinda funny really
we tend to think cause it was grown organic or something is organic its safe
well some organic pesticides are unsafe also 
Insecticides and other pesticides sometimes are needed as a last resort when efforts to grow a healthy plant fail and pests strike.

If you reach for an insecticide, don't buy into a widespread perception that insecticides derived from plants are somehow "softer" in their effects on the environment than synthesized insecticides.

Rotenone, nicotine, pyrethrum and neem are examples of botanical insecticides. Just because the materials are natural, however, doesn't mean they are always less toxic than the synthetics.

Rotenone is produced from the roots of two tropical members of the bean plant family. It has been used as a crop insecticide since the mid-1800's to control leaf eating caterpillars, and it often is recommended for flea beetle control on early season vegetables. It is six times more toxic than carbaryl, (sevin), a synthetic product, also effective for caterpillar and flea beetle control.

Nicotine sulfate has been used since the turn of the century and is the most hazardous botanical insecticide available to home gardeners. The insecticide is extracted from tobacco by steam distillation or solvent extraction. Highly toxic to humans and other warm blooded animals, nicotine sulfate is rapidly absorbed through the skin. It is six times more toxic than diazinon, a widely available synthetic insecticide sold for control of many of the same pests.

Like most organic pesticides, nicotine and rotenone break down rapidly meaning the highest hazard is to the applicator, birds and other wildlife present at the time of application.

Some organic insecticides are very effective for pest control AND have a high degree of associated safety.

Pyrethrum, extracted from the dried flowers of the pyrethrum daisy, has a rapid "knockdown" effect on many insects. It has very low toxicity to mammals and is best used for exposed caterpillars, sawfly larvae, leaf beetles and leafhoppers. Because of its short persistence, its effectiveness is limited but so are its impacts on natural insect enemies.

Neem is an exciting, new insecticide product. Extracted from the seeds of the tropical neem tree, this plant substance has long been used in Africa as a pharmaceutical and toothpaste. Neem has recently been found to interfere with insect feeding and development. Treated insects rarely show immediate symptoms, and death may be delayed a week or longer. Insects are sluggish after spraying, however, and do little feeding.

Labeled uses of neem are still under development. Its very low toxicity and increasing labeling for a wide number of insects make it an attractive, up and coming insecticide. CSU research tests show good activity against tent caterpillars and elm leaf beetles, and fair results with tussock moth.

The container in which an insecticide is sold will have a label that tells the user not only what pests the product can control, but also safety precautions for the applicator and the environment. There fore being its litterally has a MSDS safety precautions one could say its a poison No ???? drink it


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## GreenSanta (Oct 25, 2015)

I prefer to use bugs for the bugs, I agree with you on some points but disagree on most points and do not reflect the ROLS philosophy.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 25, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> lol gluten free
> And yes Looking outside right now i see northern lights dancing in the sky lol i was Abe i was saying if anyone tends to bring out door soil into there indoor gardens sterilizing the soil is a grand idea ,, does not take nothing to recharge soil shit some compost and some bacto and your golden again
> Also was talking about insects which do you think will do more harm one application of chem insecticide to rid the problem or 10 - 20 applications to rid the problem
> remember normally, by the time you see insects mites etc its not infected its fucking infested so damage has been done plant is weaker etc .. so going with a label brand organic insecticide remember insecticide or organic bug control is POISON which ever way you look at it if it kills a insect that is right ??? science is just beginining to understand soil biology but guess what pot heads have it down pact lol kinda funny really
> ...


haha thought you'd like that gluten free comment.

if chemical insecticides/fungicides are systemic, one treatment is all it needs as the plant will manufacture the poison itself systemically. which means you will be smoking poison in the end as it NEVER leaves the plant.

pyrethrum is about to be documented as carcinogenic.


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 25, 2015)

interesting here lets have a look many growers are firm believers of neem oil here are some facts about the product being 
*Azadirachtin is the main ingredient *
http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35467#Symptoms


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 25, 2015)

If i pull a chili off a plant i just grew and do the same with garlic I just grew. Mix it with water, THAT is not a bottle of pesticide. 

To each their own.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 26, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> If i pull a chili off a plant i just grew and do the same with garlic I just grew. Mix it with water, THAT is not a bottle of pesticide.
> 
> To each their own.


YOU happen to have a recipe for that brah?


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 26, 2015)

Take 1/2 small chili and 1 small bit of garlic, pestle it up with mortar and pestle, or drop in food processor. Mix into a spray bottle filled with water and shake the shit out of it. Spray away.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 26, 2015)

abe supercro said:


> Just email the lady and she's prompt about helping with your order.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 26, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> Take 1/2 small chili and 1 small bit of garlic, pestle it up with mortar and pestle, or drop in food processor. Mix into a spray bottle filled with water and shake the shit out of it. Spray away.


when this powder was sent to me it came with black rubber gloves and a white mask like they wear in surgury dude's, i ask the cat in florida, why the precautions? He says if that powder were to get into the eyes/shit the face in general your gonna need some hospital treatment!


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 26, 2015)

Yeah that would fck your eyes right up. Ate a piece of 1 few years ago and it stayed with me for the afternoon


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## Kind Sir (Oct 26, 2015)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> when this powder was sent to me it came with black rubber gloves and a white mask like they wear in surgury dude's, i ask the cat in florida, why the precautions? He says if that powder were to get into the eyes/shit the face in general your gonna need some hospital treatment!
> 
> View attachment 3529126


How does it have the devils on it?


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 26, 2015)

Idk how he packaged it up.


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 27, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Not saying you can't water a plant with short carrots


Females of any species prefer a long carrot


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## Rrog (Oct 27, 2015)

Bwaaahahahaha


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## ShLUbY (Oct 27, 2015)

I'm sure you guys have probably come across this link before but it's a cool breakdown of drainage/mineral components. enjoy.

http://www.colinlewisbonsai.com/Reading/soils2.html


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## Rrog (Oct 27, 2015)

Thanks for that! My pal lava rock!


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 27, 2015)

Turface baby Turface


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## Pattahabi (Oct 27, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> lol gluten free
> And yes Looking outside right now i see northern lights dancing in the sky lol i was Abe i was saying if anyone tends to bring out door soil into there indoor gardens sterilizing the soil is a grand idea ,, does not take nothing to recharge soil shit some compost and some bacto and your golden again
> Also was talking about insects which do you think will do more harm one application of chem insecticide to rid the problem or 10 - 20 applications to rid the problem
> remember normally, by the time you see insects mites etc its not infected its fucking infested so damage has been done plant is weaker etc .. so going with a label brand organic insecticide remember insecticide or organic bug control is POISON which ever way you look at it if it kills a insect that is right ??? science is just beginining to understand soil biology but guess what pot heads have it down pact lol kinda funny really
> ...


Exciting, new! LMAO! You took the time to type all that crap out? It's obvious by your posts you haven't been hanging around anyone with any kind of organic gardening sense. People here are dedicated to real organic gardening. Go troll somewhere else.



P-


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## a mongo frog (Oct 27, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Exciting, new! LMAO! You took the time to type all that crap out? It's obvious by your posts you haven't been hanging around anyone with any kind of organic gardening sense. People here are dedicated to real organic gardening. Go troll somewhere else.
> 
> 
> 
> P-


You don't need to go around trying to hurt peoples feelings all the time. Dude knows his shit and your pretty pissed about it. And if you don't agree with what he says then say that and explain to the forum why.


----------



## Rrog (Oct 27, 2015)

I agree with Pattahabi. Just sayin. He wasn't the one with the 'tude.

Hell, I've had Darth on ignore for a long time, and had to un-ignore to see what was up


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 27, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I agree with Pattahabi. Just sayin. He wasn't the one with the 'tude.
> 
> Hell, I've had Darth on ignore for a long time, and had to un-ignore to see what was up


Owe i apologize that i must of hurt your feelings at one time or another but when some one looks at what contributions that that gave to this site it appears were not even in the same league your upset cause i question LED or cob's and your i think a avid cree grower ??? yet when we look into your history we do not even see a journal anything interesting isn't talk the talk but really never walked the walk
https://www.rollitup.org/search/5745251/

it appears your clogging up a grow site with non sense 

Same thing applies with patahabi nothing on this guy either but as usual talking the talk i posted my soils way back in this thread dam even -6 right now my plant is still outside 6 + months with 0 nutrients 0 teas other then 2 applicaitons of top dressing grass clippings 
so with all that said i use my own soils not copy sub cools recipe haha and wait or results huge diference 
i have used oils/ fats in my composts pretty much everything and from day one i have made my own soils with spectacular results Don't be mad no need to were all here to help but get set in your ways be like trying to teach a old dog new tricks yeah think ???
Hey does this box look familiar ?? 
hey i do not add amendments to my soil i make them no need for dust . blood meal TEAS lol 
And yes if i decide to grow organic indoor using my outdoor soils i will in fact sterilize it then recharge with bacto and other charging materials 
No for some that use my ways great for others that use there ways GREAT its all about growing plants at the end of the day


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## littlejacob (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Owe i apologize that i must of hurt your feelings at one time or another but when some one looks at what contributions that that gave to this site it appears were not even in the same league your upset cause i question LED or cob's and your i think a avid cree grower ??? yet when we look into your history we do not even see a journal anything interesting isn't talk the talk but really never walked the walk
> https://www.rollitup.org/search/5745251/
> 
> it appears your clogging up a grow site with non sense
> ...


Bonjour
I like the pic with weed tomato and garlic I guess...looks very organic!
Just a word about neem oil...I believe it is ok for indoor (even if I don't use it cause I hate the smell of it) but if you really love nature and care about it do not use it outdoor...it kill pest ok...but it kill bee as well!!! And other useful insects!
And Cree cxb 3590 are smashing any other lights...I do not sell anything...so thrust me on that! 
Have a great day ★


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

Nice post. Thanks for that


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 28, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> I like the pic with weed tomato and garlic I guess...looks very organic!
> Just a word about neem oil...I believe it is ok for indoor (even if I don't use it cause I hate the smell of it) but if you really love nature and care about it do not use it outdoor...it kill pest ok...but it kill bee as well!!! And other useful insects!
> And Cree cxb 3590 are smashing any other lights...I do not sell anything...so thrust me on that!
> Have a great day ★


bonjour jacob mon petit gâteau Vous avez ce droit Cris 3590 sont écraser les autres lumières que dans l'argent dans votre portefeuille . mais pour le prix d'un qui se compare à Hidi se acheter deux et le fracas qui cree des rendements anyday de la semaine , vous tirent livres threee par votre lumière 3590 ???
J'ai pensé ainsi
Drôle fracassant comme en comparaison sage des coûts , de l'argent qui sort de votre portefeuille haha mais encore une fois pour huit cents dollars plus i sera en fait détruire tout dollar en torchis pour dollar spent.if nous regardons balasts même mag pour 900 dollars dépensés à mae un épi unité qui battra peut-être un HID je voudrais enfait aurait 7000 watts de HID donc qui gagne 900 épi de dollar ou 7000 se cachaient , mais cela au monde dE et wow 2030 watts dE pour le prix d' une unité de torchis sens pas dans mon monde spécialement lorsque l'alimentation est pas cher au Québec


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Hey Guys just wanted to say Sorry if i come across as a prick sometimes to some of you , or all of you haha i mean good ,, always ound whe bring out side soil into our indoor grows its becomes a cluster fuck with insects everybody is always worried about living organic soil which is so simple to put in soil its not even funny..
> If anyone is using outdoor soil and bringing it inside ???
> They should really consider sterilizing the soil and starting all over, Even if chemical nutrients were used in your soil your soil is not dead but damaged


So a ton of people in this thread and others forage material from outside and add it to their soils with no problems. I'm not going to sterilize 5 cu yards of soil, and I'll hollar as soon as some 'bad microbes' take over my pots and start killing all my plants. I'd worry more about proper watering techniques than a adding few anerobic bacteria from outside.



Darth Vapour said:


> First and foremost, DON'T go wasting your money on all these miracle products, they are unnecessary, Don't go buying into all these products, your getting fooled out of your wallet!


What the hell are you talking about here? Miracle products? Fooled out of your wallet? I'm recommending adding some EWC and molasses to water once in a while, sprouting some barely, buying a bag of kelp meal. Maybe you could elborate.



Darth Vapour said:


> The best thing to add to your soil:
> -Compost(make yourself,etc)
> -plant matter(cover crops/green manures)
> -mulch(again plant matter, leaves,etc)
> ...


Ummm... yup. Humus being paramount has been said about 100 times in this thread. No one here is going to disagree with the power of compost/vermicompost.




Darth Vapour said:


> I have practiced Sterilization of soil on every grow from the time i was 10 years old, its just common practice now. And a smart practice. we have to forget that there is only one way for ROLS and no other cause that is a crock of shit there are hundreds of ways to get from point A to point B,
> I have moved away from family practice where we own a big botanic garden and like ALL botanic gardens all there used soil is sterilized and re charged , and re used this not only assures us that the plant in question is bug free its also insures us that its also disease free .
> I used to start our green houses in middle of February and start seed runs as well as clone approx 350,000 annuals for up coming season sales etc , I have worked with more soils then most will see in there life time trust me on that
> And being around certified botanists all my life one learns allot ..
> so with that said everyone has to to relax on the ROLS so many ways to do it successfully and there is no such thing as this is the right way or that is the wrong way


Well, this is sort of a cluster. All I can say to this is yes, there are 100 ways to skin a cat. But THIS IS THE ROLS THREAD. You want to go talk sterilization in organics, start a thread, don't spam this one.




Darth Vapour said:


> Using strong chemicals or a sure kill method to rid insects ( mites aphids etc )
> Same thing applies Do not kid your self Yes even organic farmers use harsh chemicals as a last resort to rid infestation ,,, why should we be any different ??? if you really think about ..
> Now i am not going to say what ever its your plants your grow , do what ever , but to think by using 10 times more the application to rid the problem is being better or more efficient is a wrong way to think about it . by the time you see insect issues the damage already has been done there easily on there 3rd generation - 6 generation of off spring and this is a problem . not only has your plants been attacked there weak now and getting weaker by the day .. so yes even going with this organic witch craft recipe your hurting your plants even more by stressing it out every application .. And with that said spraying plants ?? throw that idea down the drain YOU NEVER GET THEM ALL you may think yeah i killed them ,, But sure enough 5th week in flower they popped there ugly heads out at you again
> And NOW your fucked
> ...


Well, that's great your adamant about chem dunking your plants, but once again this is the organic section. You can take your poison talk over to the hydro section. I have ZERO bugs after having a mite issue, and having my grow next to a TON of bugs. Did it take 20 applications of some seemingly innocent yet somehow horrible pesticide? No, I sprayed every leaf 4 times, three days apart with a neem, silica base occasionally adding some rosemary. My plants turned green and prayed to the lights after the applications. Anything really bad, you can get out the organic nuclear bomb and spray some spinosad.



a mongo frog said:


> You don't need to go around trying to hurt peoples feelings all the time. Dude knows his shit and your pretty pissed about it. And if you don't agree with what he says then say that and explain to the forum why.


My apologies if it seemed I was trying to hurt his feelings. The way I see it he is only trying to stir trouble, but please feel free to point out the merit in his posts. Actually, I do like dunking plants for complete coverage, but I wouldn't add the chem poisons.



Darth Vapour said:


> interesting here lets have a look many growers are firm believers of neem oil here are some facts about the product being
> *Azadirachtin is the main ingredient *
> http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_Chemical.jsp?Rec_Id=PC35467#Symptoms


Here are some facts about your complete laziness and stupidity, if you would have spent even five minutes researching azamax in this section you would have known azadirachtin is only one of over 300+ chemicals in neem. Azamax is just another pathetic attempt by big business to make a mint off of something that has been in existence for thousands of years.

I'm all ears,

P-


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

My man P


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 28, 2015)

your right your all Ears lol could you be so kind to post up some of your organic mj plants  would love to see it as well as many others i would bet being you never even started a thread on this site..
and from looking at this thread sure there are a lot of people now doing the compost thing but also there are a lot of people purchasing organic soils and then making teas etc many ways to skin a chicken when it comes to organic growing
Dayum thinking about a bag of promix one bag of sheep manure, 1 bag of sea compost , little more peat, some sand , hell even a bag of top soil and pow your organic add some perlite dolomite i you like haha man millions of ways to do it

but still waiting show us your soils and garden  i have why haven't you or Rrog bring it on show us how its done tired of just talk same thing said by other growers over n over for 100 's of years

you want to see some natural frost


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## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2015)

My current run getting attacked by all the bad microbes from the randomly foraged material in my pots. They have naturally made biochar from the foothills here, mycelium from the soil in the national forest, etc.


 

Peace,

P-


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## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> View attachment 3530576 your right your all Ears lol could you be so kind to post up some of your organic mj plants  would love to see it as well as many others i would bet being you never even started a thread on this site..
> and from looking at this thread sure there are a lot of people now doing the compost thing but also there are a lot of people purchasing organic soils and then making teas etc many ways to skin a chicken when it comes to organic growing
> Dayum thinking about a bag of promix one bag of sheep manure, 1 bag of sea compost , little more peat, some sand , hell even a bag of top soil and pow your organic add some perlite dolomite i you like haha man millions of ways to do it
> 
> ...


If you had taken the time to actually read some of the great material in this thread you would have seen quite a few picts from my garden. However, you're still trolling this thread cause you're butt hurt about people bashing your chems.

P-


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## sunni (Oct 28, 2015)

use the ignore button not point ruining a thread with petty arguments mate


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

I love the ignore button.


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> My current run getting attacked by all the bad microbes from the randomly foraged material in my pots. They have naturally made biochar from the foothills here, mycelium from the soil in the national forest, etc.
> 
> Peace,
> 
> P-


Man! They look like they're miserable ! 

Great natural materials you have available, P. Good for you


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## VTMi'kmaq (Oct 28, 2015)

correct me if i'm wrong but dosnt herb CALM folks down? It does me. I see a whole lotta praying going on in that room P.


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

I'm prayin I was in the room, too


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## nvhak49 (Oct 28, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> My current run getting attacked by all the bad microbes from the randomly foraged material in my pots. They have naturally made biochar from the foothills here, mycelium from the soil in the national forest, etc.
> 
> View attachment 3530574
> View attachment 3530572
> ...


Awesome looking plants man. Can't wait to use no till too. My soil is just about done cooking two more days than they go into my final pots.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2015)

nvhak49 said:


> Awesome looking plants man. Can't wait to use no till too. My soil is just about done cooking two more days than they go into my final pots.


Thanks nvhak! In my experience the soil will get better with time. I used the cooking methodology for a long time. I think it has a lot to do with what you actually put in your mix. However, I have been planting straight into fresh Coot's mixes for a while now. I always think it is a great idea to throw a plant you don't care about in the mix first and see what happens. Good luck with your notills!



Rrog said:


> Man! They look like they're miserable !
> 
> Great natural materials you have available, P. Good for you


Thanks Rrog! I do a lot of hiking, and it's not uncommon for me to come back with a sandwich baggie of something to throw in my pots. I always try to be respectful about my foraging methods. 



hyroot said:


> That plant looks horrible. Tons of spider mite damage and deficiencies. Back to the drawing board for you.


Hyroot, this is the perfect example of where spending a lot of money at the hydrostore can get you LOL!

Peace!

P-


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> View attachment 3530576 your right your all Ears lol could you be so kind to post up some of your organic mj plants  would love to see it as well as many others i would bet being you never even started a thread on this site..
> and from looking at this thread sure there are a lot of people now doing the compost thing but also there are a lot of people purchasing organic soils and then making teas etc many ways to skin a chicken when it comes to organic growing
> Dayum thinking about a bag of promix one bag of sheep manure, 1 bag of sea compost , little more peat, some sand , hell even a bag of top soil and pow your organic add some perlite dolomite i you like haha man millions of ways to do it
> 
> ...



That plant looks horrible. Tons of spider mite damage and deficiencies. Back to the drawing board for you.


----------



## littlejacob (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> bonjour jacob mon petit gâteau Vous avez ce droit Cris 3590 sont écraser les autres lumières que dans l'argent dans votre portefeuille . mais pour le prix d'un qui se compare à Hidi se acheter deux et le fracas qui cree des rendements anyday de la semaine , vous tirent livres threee par votre lumière 3590 ???
> J'ai pensé ainsi
> Drôle fracassant comme en comparaison sage des coûts , de l'argent qui sort de votre portefeuille haha mais encore une fois pour huit cents dollars plus i sera en fait détruire tout dollar en torchis pour dollar spent.if nous regardons balasts même mag pour 900 dollars dépensés à mae un épi unité qui battra peut-être un HID je voudrais enfait aurait 7000 watts de HID donc qui gagne 900 épi de dollar ou 7000 se cachaient , mais cela au monde dE et wow 2030 watts dE pour le prix d' une unité de torchis sens pas dans mon monde spécialement lorsque l'alimentation est pas cher au Québec


Bonjour! 
Could you translate in English please...
This is not french...sorry!
I can't say I don't understand a word cause most of the word are french...but mean nothing for me!
But I appreciate the effort! 
But since it is a site in english you can go for english it would be easier for me!
Thanks
Have a great day ★


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## st0wandgrow (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Owe i apologize that i must of hurt your feelings at one time or another but when some one looks at what contributions that that gave to this site it appears were not even in the same league your upset cause i question LED or cob's and your i think a avid cree grower ??? yet when we look into your history we do not even see a journal anything interesting isn't talk the talk but really never walked the walk
> https://www.rollitup.org/search/5745251/
> 
> it appears your clogging up a grow site with non sense
> ...


????

Honestly, of all the people you could have singled out for not contributing good info, you choose Rrog and P?? I have learned more from those two than anyone else that comes to mind on this forum. Rrog has one of the best organic threads on ANY site in the Michigan patients section.

Are you bored and just looking to bicker?


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 28, 2015)

hyroot said:


> That plant looks horrible. Tons of spider mite damage and deficiencies. Back to the drawing board for you.


 lmao that is frost there kiddo - 10 today n chopping Had first frost on sunday always chop second frost not bad for 6 months from start to finish   with out any nutrients other then grass clippings applied 2 times  would really like to see you pull a 6 month grow with out any nutrients and only rain water used  i can't see it happening can you ??
Yo patahibi nice little plants you go going on there.. looks good and healthy you adding teas  
anyways i got to sharpen my scissors I'll make sure to post what a 4 - 6 pound plant looks like once all done cheers Darth


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> lmao that is frost there kiddo - 10 today n chopping Had first frost on sunday always chop second frost not bad for 6 months from start to finish View attachment 3530640 View attachment 3530649 with out any nutrients other then grass clippings applied 2 times  would really like to see you pull a 6 month grow with out any nutrients and only rain water used  i can't see it happening can you ??
> Yo patahibi nice little plants you go going on there.. looks good and healthy you adding teas
> anyways i got to sharpen my scissors I'll make sure to post what a 4 - 6 pound plant looks like once all done cheers Darth



I don't think so Tim


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 28, 2015)

Your right Root i dont think you could do it either but can assure you it was actual frost no bug issues like your grows sir i mean cmon does this look like a plant with out any issues ?? lol oh here closer shot of my plant back in mid sept looks like mite issues to you ??
Mind you since sept my weather has been far from allowing mites to live haha 4 degrees to 15 to october -10 to12 degrees actually last night dipped down to -12 only leaf issues are from extreme cold nothing else..

PS: you ever get your mite and all other stuf sorted ?? lol she sure looks like one hurting unit let alone nutrient issues tat is


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## Darth Vapour (Oct 28, 2015)

Hey i even complimented Pats grow they are healthy ..
but you Root sir i must admit out of all the organic growers on this site you are number 1 for the most sickliest plants Well done


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Your right Root i dont think you could do it either but can assure you it was actual frost no bug issues like your grows sir i mean cmon does this look like a plant with out any issues ?? lol oh here closer shot of my plant back in mid sept looks like mite issues to you ??
> Mind you since sept my weather has been far from allowing mites to live haha 4 degrees to 15 to october -10 to12 degrees actually last night dipped down to -12 only leaf issues are from extreme cold nothing else..
> 
> PS: you ever get your mite and all other stuf sorted ?? lol she sure looks like one hurting unit let alone nutrient issues tat is
> ...



Lmao you are really reaching.... if yours really had frost then they're garbage. Full of mold. Either way bad job.

Here's that same plant in flower now. It sat in a 2 gals for 2 months so it had a slight mag def. That pic was the day it was transplanted. You know that already. I said that on that page. Nice try though. And even with mag def it still is healthier than yours.

Your 3 pics there all have molybdenum defs and pest problems. 

They're as healthy as can be now.









You wish you could be me


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## nvhak49 (Oct 28, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Thanks nvhak! In my experience the soil will get better with time. I used the cooking methodology for a long time. I think it has a lot to do with what you actually put in your mix. However, I have been planting straight into fresh Coot's mixes for a while now. I always think it is a great idea to throw a plant you don't care about in the mix first and see what happens. Good luck with your notills!
> 
> 
> Thanks Rrog! I do a lot of hiking, and it's not uncommon for me to come back with a sandwich baggie of something to throw in my pots. I always try to be respectful about my foraging methods.
> ...


I had some used black and gold soil that I used over the summer and I put in some craft blend admendments from buildAsoil and worm castings and rice hulls I'll my cuttings in there final pots this weekend. Yeah I've read and watched guys saying the soil only get better as time goes on. It's pretty damn easy to go this way I love not having to mess with pH pens and up and down time consuming and annoying rather brew up a SST, compost tea or feed them some coconut water and aloe juice super simple and my girls are loving it so far.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2015)

Darth Vapour said:


> Hey Guys just wanted to say Sorry if i come across as a prick sometimes to some of you , or all of you haha i mean good ,, always ound whe bring out side soil into our indoor grows its becomes a cluster fuck with insects everybody is always worried about living organic soil which is so simple to put in soil its not even funny..
> If anyone is using outdoor soil and bringing it inside ???
> They should really consider sterilizing the soil and starting all over, Even if chemical nutrients were used in your soil your soil is not dead but damaged
> *First and foremost, DON'T go wasting your money on all these miracle products, they are unnecessary, Don't go buying into all these products, your getting fooled out of your wallet!
> ...


Hey Darth, I have to say it's pretty low to quote someone else and try and take credit for it. And if by chance this is actually you, you're still an idiot for quoting a post that is over two years old. I'm seriously doubting those are even your pictures now. Beyond sad and pathetic and the reason you are now on my ignore list. @Rrog @stowandgrow thought you might enjoy this as well.



Best of luck poser,

P-


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

I assume he posted that earlier? I have had the ignore feature activated. I feel like Un-ignoring to read a post is sort of dignifying the post so I mostly don't. At least it keeps me chill


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## nvhak49 (Oct 28, 2015)

It's not the first time he's trolled around on here and lots of other threads.


----------



## ShLUbY (Oct 28, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I assume he posted that earlier? I have had the ignore feature activated. I feel like Un-ignoring to read a post is sort of dignifying the post so I mostly don't. At least it keeps me chill


if you have someone ignored can you not see someone quote their post, im assuming? P has it in the "darth breakdown", 2nd and 3rd quotes.


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 28, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I assume he posted that earlier? I have had the ignore feature activated. I feel like Un-ignoring to read a post is sort of dignifying the post so I mostly don't. At least it keeps me chill


Yep, that was the post I was responding to. I googled another one of his posts... Same deal. Totally ripped off from another source with no credit given. Perfect reason to use that ignore button. 

P-


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## littlejacob (Oct 28, 2015)

Bonjour
Someone could explain me how to use coconut water and aloe?
May I use weed leave for green manure? (Dry or wet ?)
Have a great day ★


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> if you have someone ignored can you not see someone quote their post, im assuming? P has it in the "darth breakdown", 2nd and 3rd quotes.



Actually no, so it looks like they're arguing with themselves since the posts and quoted posts don't show up. Really, the ignore feature really insulates you


----------



## ShLUbY (Oct 28, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Someone could explain me how to use coconut water and aloe?
> May I use weed leave for green manure? (Dry or wet ?)
> Have a great day ★


aloe vera fresh from the plant, 2 TBSP (30ml) per gallon of fresh water. coconut water (make sure there are no other ingredients in it) can be used at a rate of 1/4cup (60ml) per gallon

if you're talkin about composting or mulching with the cannabis leaves, yes you can.


----------



## ShLUbY (Oct 28, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Actually no, so it looks like they're arguing with themselves since the posts and quoted posts don't show up. Really, the ignore feature really insulates you


lol i bet that looks hilarious from that perspective.


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## Rrog (Oct 28, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> lol i bet that looks hilarious from that perspective.


It's mostly cool that you know your not being bothered by someone you know will irritate you.


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 28, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> aloe vera fresh from the plant, 2 TBSP (30ml) per gallon of fresh water. coconut water (make sure there are no other ingredients in it) can be used at a rate of 1/4cup (60ml) per gallon
> 
> if you're talkin about composting or mulching with the cannabis leaves, yes you can.


Spot on what I do. Coconut water straight from the coconut. Same with the aloe


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> lol i bet that looks hilarious from that perspective.


Ignore only prevents you from seeing their posts. They can still see yours. There's no block feature. I've asked mods to add one. So I can block a few people.


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## ShLUbY (Oct 29, 2015)

makin' off with the goods....


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## Rrog (Oct 29, 2015)

That little fucker! Must be a piece of Dorito


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## ShLUbY (Oct 29, 2015)

Rrog said:


> That little fucker! Must be a piece of Dorito


he wishes it was dorito! LMAO.


----------



## littlejacob (Oct 29, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> aloe vera fresh from the plant, 2 TBSP (30ml) per gallon of fresh water. coconut water (make sure there are no other ingredients in it) can be used at a rate of 1/4cup (60ml) per gallon
> 
> if you're talkin about composting or mulching with the cannabis leaves, yes you can.


Bonjour
Thank a lot for the answer...but I asked cause there is fresh aloe where I live (free!) And to know what you use it for!? Same for coco water why do you use it?
Have a nice day!


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## Rrog (Oct 29, 2015)

Looks like a Dorito ... Super Bowl commercial time!


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## ShLUbY (Oct 29, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Looks like a Dorito ... Super Bowl commercial time!


lol haven't been doritos in my house for years. ant sized crab shell dorito maybe


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## Rrog (Oct 29, 2015)

So, I'm gonna pretend that's a Dorito. 'Cause I'm not there and maybe you're a closet Dorito eater. I just don't know, see. 

So in my mind, you know, maybe it's a Dorito


----------



## Pattahabi (Oct 29, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Thank a lot for the answer...but I asked cause there is fresh aloe where I live (free!) And to know what you use it for!? Same for coco water why do you use it?
> Have a nice day!


Take approx 1oz of leaf 'gel' to 1 gallon of water, blend, strain and foliar. This can also be added to your waterings. I blend skin and all, and I usually guess on the 1oz, although it may help to try and weigh it out a time or two so you know what it looks like. This is the why:

_The ten main areas of chemical constituents of Aloe vera include: Amino Acids, Anthraquinones, Enzymes, Minerals, Vitamins, Lignins, Monosaccharide, Polysaccharides, Salicylic Acid, Saponins, And Sterols.

Amino acids found in Aloe vera include: Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Valine,And Tryptophan. Some Of The Other Non-Essential Amino Acids Found In Aloe Vera Include Alanine, Arginine, Asparagine, Cysteine, Glutamic Acid, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine, Glutamine, And Aspartic Acid.

Enzymes include Amylase, Bradykinase, Catalase, Cellulas, Lipase, Oxidase, Alkaline Phosphatase, Proteolytias, Creatine Phosphokinase and Carboxypeptidase.

Aloe vera also contains Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, and B12 along with Choline, Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, Manganese, Chromium, Selenium. Additional elements found in Aloe vera include Copper, Iron, Potassium, Phosphorus, And Sodium._

In addition, aloe vera also contains saponins and salicylic acid which are huge selling points.

hth!

P-


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 29, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Thank a lot for the answer...but I asked cause there is fresh aloe where I live (free!) And to know what you use it for!? Same for coco water why do you use it?
> Have a nice day!


This is out of high times from an article on ROLS:


A “Protein Drink” for Your Plants
Raw, organic aloe vera juice is an amazing addition to your regular waterings or foliar feedings at 1⁄4 cup per gallon of water. Think of aloe vera doing for your plants what a protein shake does for an elite athlete: providing the body what it needs to grow bigger and stronger by giving it more raw material. Just like a human body will use amino acids to make proteins and proteins to make muscles, plants will use simple sugars to make starches, and starches to make their structures. Aloe vera juice is chock-full of simple sugars and starches, giving your plants the nutrition they need for serious performance.

For Plants That Grow Like Coconut Palms
Raw, organic coconut water can replace an armload of top-secret grow formulas. Added to feedings at 15 milliliters per liter of H2O, coconut water will cause your plants to grow faster, more vigorously, and with more buds sites and shorter internodal distances. Keep in mind that a coconut is the biggest seed on Earth -- and like any other seed, it contains enough nutrition for the plant to grow until it develops sufficient leaves to make its own food. Coconut trees get taller by growing huge palm leaves that die off, leaving a trunk -- which means that unlike cannabis, which grows stem space between each set of branches, coconut water has cytokinins (sigh-toe-kine-ens), hormones that signal the plant to divide cells in the roots and growing shoots, equaling explosive growth. Coconut water is also a great source of cal- cium, magnesium, and other minerals and elements your plants need.


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 29, 2015)

I use 1/2 cup fresh coconut water per 3 gallons H2O


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## littlejacob (Oct 29, 2015)

Bonjour
Thanks a lot @Pattahabi and how many time do you use it? In vegg? Bloom?
I have an iron def on one plant...what should I use?(I transplant it from 1gl to 3gl tonight so maybe it gonna fix it!)
Have a great day ★


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## Pattahabi (Oct 29, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Thanks a lot @Pattahabi and how many time do you use it? In vegg? Bloom?
> I have an iron def on one plant...what should I use?(I transplant it from 1gl to 3gl tonight so maybe it gonna fix it!)
> Have a great day ★


I would do a little testing. Once a week would be real safe, but you can get away with a little more than that. I find it especially good to use the foliar after transplant, and maybe a little in the drench water at transplant. You can use it through out the life of the plant. One time I had mites, and I didn't want to spray anything, so I used it foliar application right up till a few days before harvest (I generally don't foliar after 14 days or so into flower). Amazing stuff to say the least.

Peace!

P-


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## littlejacob (Oct 29, 2015)

Bonjour
I will try both with my next watering...
Is it ok if I mix aloe Vera/coconut water/molasse together? 
What about the white part of coconut? Is it good for compost? And aloe leaves?
Thanks guys!


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## Pattahabi (Oct 29, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> I will try both with my next watering...
> Is it ok if I mix aloe Vera/coconut water/molasse together?
> What about the white part of coconut? Is it good for compost? And aloe leaves?
> Thanks guys!


Probably leave the molasses out. You could add the coconut water also, although I would be careful especially if they are young. Might be better to experiment one at a time so you know the effects of each individually. All parts of both are excellent for compost!

P-


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## ShLUbY (Oct 30, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Thanks a lot @Pattahabi and how many time do you use it? In vegg? Bloom?
> I have an iron def on one plant...what should I use?(I transplant it from 1gl to 3gl tonight so maybe it gonna fix it!)
> Have a great day ★


i like to use the coconut water at transplant as a drench. i have yet to try them together. aloe is a good stress reliever and i've watered that with liquid kelp at the same time for the ultimate stress reducer!

i could be wrong but i think greens have good iron. dandelion, nettle, spinach ect. you could get some dandelion greens and spinach from a store, dry them out in the sun or dehydrator, and then powder them. put them in a bucket of water and bubble for 24 hours, strain (or dont strain) and water right in.

anyone that can confirm this?


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## littlejacob (Oct 30, 2015)

Bonjour
Very nice! Thank you! 
I will try both separately! My plant are about a month old!
There's dandelion everywhere in the field around here...lots of free stuff! 
I love to eat some with garlic and smoked potatoes....
Have a great day ★


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## Mohican (Oct 30, 2015)

I never hear anybody talking about the iron needs of cannabis plants. Does anybody here have any advice on how much to add and a good source?

Do they not need Iron as much as they need Mag?


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## Pattahabi (Oct 30, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i like to use the coconut water at transplant as a drench. i have yet to try them together. aloe is a good stress reliever and i've watered that with liquid kelp at the same time for the ultimate stress reducer!
> 
> i could be wrong but i think greens have good iron. dandelion, nettle, spinach ect. you could get some dandelion greens and spinach from a store, dry them out in the sun or dehydrator, and then powder them. put them in a bucket of water and bubble for 24 hours, strain (or dont strain) and water right in.
> 
> anyone that can confirm this?


Hey ShlUby! 

Aloe is an awesome stress reducer (along with SST's). Look for dynamic accumulators; comfrey, borage, nettle, dandelion, horsetail, etc. I've never looked up spinich specifically, but I'd expect all the dark leafy greans would be good. I don't know that I would add any heat or sun. I can only imagine this would degrade enzymes, secondary metabolites, etc. If it were me personally, I'd just top dress them in my containers. Worms will take care of em soon enough. 

Bong goes to the left, ear...



Peace!

P-


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## ShLUbY (Oct 30, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Hey ShlUby!
> 
> Aloe is an awesome stress reducer (along with SST's). Look for dynamic accumulators; comfrey, borage, nettle, dandelion, horsetail, etc. I've never looked up spinich specifically, but I'd expect all the dark leafy greans would be good. I don't know that I would add any heat or sun. I can only imagine this would degrade enzymes, secondary metabolites, etc. If it were me personally, I'd just top dress them in my containers. Worms will take care of em soon enough.
> 
> ...


spinach has 4% human Daily value of iron. dandelion has 9% per serving. borage has lots of iron and mag both over 10%. if you type in "Nutrition Facts insert veggie/fruit here" into google they give you the breakdown. Easy, Peasy, Japanesey.

my dehydrator is capable of 95 deg. drying temps... i don't see what that would harm too much...


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## Mohican (Oct 30, 2015)

Does canna need iron?


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## littlejacob (Oct 31, 2015)

Bonjour
I am not sure about the def...
Some leafs in the middle (on 1 plant...a cheese) are dark green in the middle and light green on the sides...will.post a pic tonight! 
And I am in France so I never add cal/mag...we don't have this problem in France there's enough in tap water...I guess...not so much about it on french 
sites...but on US sites I hear about it all the time! 
Canna need a lots of different types of metal in very small quantities so normally it never happens that is why I am not sure about it! 
I think I am going to add a bit of azomite to be sure...what is the best way to do it? Scratch the soil or mix it with water? 
Have a nice day!


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## yellowsunday (Oct 31, 2015)

thanks for the advice mates follow my organic thread for my first ever grow,



Mohican said:


> Does canna need iron?


yes sir

http://www.growgreenerguru.com/2012/03/iron-fe/


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## ShLUbY (Oct 31, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> I am not sure about the def...
> Some leafs in the middle (on 1 plant...a cheese) are dark green in the middle and light green on the sides...will.post a pic tonight!
> And I am in France so I never add cal/mag...we don't have this problem in France there's enough in tap water...I guess...not so much about it on french
> ...


azomite needs to be broken down in the soil. maybe a little bit is soluble in water, but probably not much of high solubility rate.

Fe is one of the essential micronutrients. i don't think it's very mobile in the plant, once it's fixed, it stays. so that's why you see yellowing in the newest growth only. won't be on the middle areas. show us that pic jacob.

@littlejacob http://www.growweedeasy.com/iron-deficiency-cannabis here are some reference pics.

i think i'm going to be ordering some dried herb borage and some other stuff. BULK DRY HERBS HERE www.herbco.com
or any other spice you like. i have about 50 fuckin mason jars of different stuff lol. I love to cook though!


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## littlejacob (Oct 31, 2015)

Bonjour
I didn't went to see my girls tonight...I will tomorrow! 
My tap water PH is 7.5!...do I have to change it to 6??
How do you modified your water PH?
With lemon? I have a ph down but I guess it is not organic! 
Thanks! 
Have a great day ★


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## littlejacob (Oct 31, 2015)

And thank you @ShLUbY but i am in France so herbco may not ship to my country...or may have huge shipping cost!
Impressive collection of dried herb anyway! 
But I am in south of france, near Italy and there's a lot of herb around here and it's free! So I am going to learn a bit about local herbs!
Have a great day ★


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## Mohican (Oct 31, 2015)

Provence lavender!







Provence herb mix:








Salut,
Mo


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## littlejacob (Oct 31, 2015)

Bonjour
What about lavender, thyme, basil, rosemary, oregano I have some in my parents garden!
May I use some of it?
Have a great day ★


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## Pattahabi (Oct 31, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> What about lavender, thyme, basil, rosemary, oregano I have some in my parents garden!
> May I use some of it?
> Have a great day ★


Absolutely! All of these have excellent compounds for our purposes. You can top dress in pots, some of those I blend, strain and spray for pest prevention (rosemary & thyme). You can make fermented plant extracts. Take your pick. 



Peace!

P-


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## Pattahabi (Oct 31, 2015)

@Mohican that is one absolutely beautiful lavender field! I can only imagine how divine it smells where that picture was taken!

P-


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## littlejacob (Oct 31, 2015)

I do...it smell but not that much...it is not very smelly in fresh form...unless you scratch some in your hand...maybe because it grow in dry place and don't need much watering!
Do I have to use rosemary and thyme fresh or dry?
How much of each for 1 gl?...2pound? (Fresh!..10% of it dry?!)
CU


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 31, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Absolutely! All of these have excellent compounds for our purposes. You can top dress in pots, some of those I blend, strain and spray for pest prevention (rosemary & thyme). You can make fermented plant extracts. Take your pick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome info there P


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 31, 2015)

I have a bush of Thai basil and quite few Vietnamese herbs growing in garden which all have strong terpenes. Good for pest prevention. Great ideas on top dress etc.


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## Pattahabi (Oct 31, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> I do...it smell but not that much...it is not very smelly in fresh form...unless you scratch some in your hand...maybe because it grow in dry place and don't need much watering!
> Do I have to use rosemary and thyme fresh or dry?
> How much of each for 1 gl?...2pound? (Fresh!..10% of it dry?!)
> CU


I would start very low dosage, and work your way up. With fresh rosemary I would start somewhere around 1tsp blended into 1 gallon. Cilantro is also an outstanding pest preventitive. Not very quantitative, but I used about 1/4-1/2 a bunch of organic cilranto belnded into 1 gallon water. I've never blended dry leaves, but I have added plenty of dry to topdress my notills.



Vnsmkr said:


> Awesome info there P


Thanks Vn! I wish I had more time to add to that. Kinda high and tired atm. 

P-


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## ShLUbY (Nov 1, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I would start very low dosage, and work your way up. With fresh rosemary I would start somewhere around 1tsp blended into 1 gallon. Cilantro is also an outstanding pest preventitive. Not very quantitative, but I used about 1/4-1/2 a bunch of organic cilranto belnded into 1 gallon water. I've never blended dry leaves, but I have added plenty of dry to topdress my notills.
> 
> 
> Thanks Vn! I wish I had more time to add to that. Kinda high and tired atm.
> ...


@Pattahabi

what you think about growing cilantro as a cover crop? i'm thinking about throwing some seeds down in my no-tills.  I eat the hell outta that stuff in all kinds of dishes. be a great cover i think, well for me it would be lol, and pest preventative for the plant!


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## Rrog (Nov 1, 2015)

Cilantro is a nightmare to grow even by itself, apparently. Goes to seed fast or done such. High maintenance. 

This came up once on ICmag and that was Coots perspective


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## ShLUbY (Nov 1, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Cilantro is a nightmare to grow even by itself, apparently. Goes to seed fast or done such. High maintenance.
> 
> This came up once on ICmag and that was Coots perspective


not a nightmare at all. I like to grow it in spring and fall. i like to harvest the plant while they are still small, like less that 8". take scissors and cut the leaves off above the soil 1/2". it will shoot new apical meristems from the base and this is how you keep the growth short. the main problem with it going to seed, at least for me, is heat. it makes them want to bolt (kinda like basil).

That being said, besides providing pest deterrence, i wonder what they would offer in terms of nutrient extraction from the soil and then clipping the trimmings into the pot for breakdown... not sure what root structure cilantro has, fibrous or taproot... need to do some reading i suppose.


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## Mohican (Nov 1, 2015)

Just do it!








Cheers,
Mo


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## Pattahabi (Nov 1, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> @Pattahabi
> 
> what you think about growing cilantro as a cover crop? i'm thinking about throwing some seeds down in my no-tills.  I eat the hell outta that stuff in all kinds of dishes. be a great cover i think, well for me it would be lol, and pest preventative for the plant!


I have not tried to grow cilantro. Along with Rrog, I remember Coot saying it was a nightmare to get started. Sounds like you have a way to grow it, so I would say go for it! I love home grown ipm ingredients! (I also love cilantro - we eat it in a lot of dishes).

Peace!

P-


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## ShLUbY (Nov 1, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> I have not tried to grow cilantro. Along with Rrog, I remember Coot saying it was a nightmare to get started. Sounds like you have a way to grow it, so I would say go for it! I love home grown ipm ingredients! (I also love cilantro - we eat it in a lot of dishes).
> 
> Peace!
> 
> P-


how to grow cilantro. Drop seeds onto soil and water them in. keep topsoil moist every couple days. DONE. piece of cake  you have to grow a lot of it though, like a dense population of them. almost like grass IMO. just mow, harvest, and enjoy.


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## Pattahabi (Nov 1, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> how to grow cilantro. Drop seeds onto soil and water them in. keep topsoil moist every couple days. DONE. piece of cake  you have to grow a lot of it though, like a dense population of them. almost like grass IMO. just mow, harvest, and enjoy.


Sounds easy enough! I might have to give it a try. Now if I could just figure out how to grow an avocado tree indoors - fresh guac all year! 

P-


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## ShLUbY (Nov 1, 2015)

Pattahabi said:


> Sounds easy enough! I might have to give it a try. Now if I could just figure out how to grow an avocado tree indoors - fresh guac all year!
> 
> P-


my cousins mom has an 8yr old avocado tree that hasnt put out any fruit yet. she overwinters it indoors and puts it out in the summer... probably not under any good amount of lighting though in the winter. i hear they take a long time before they put off fruit.

i really want to try a citrus tree. like a lemon lime grafted to the same tree. it would be valuable enough to me. i love using fresh citrus. especially in juices!


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## hyroot (Nov 1, 2015)

Avocados can take up to 20 years to produce fruit. They only produce fruit every other year or every few years. Some avaocado trees don't produce fruits at all.


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## littlejacob (Nov 2, 2015)

Bonjour
Sorry!..but is cilantro same as coriander? (Same family of parsley? Persil in french...!)
Cause if it is...this plant do not like direct sun...and it is very resistant! 
I have some in the garden too...lol...
I also have mint...and the last peperoni who finish...!


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## ShLUbY (Nov 2, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Sorry!..but is cilantro same as coriander? (Same family of parsley? Persil in french...!)
> Cause if it is...this plant do not like direct sun...and it is very resistant!
> I have some in the garden too...lol...
> I also have mint...and the last peperoni who finish...!


yes, same plant. i looked at the nutrition, and it offers basically nothing, but in terms of pest resistance it's a good one!


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## BobBitchen (Nov 2, 2015)

I'v grown cilantro outside a few times and it was an aphid magnet 
So cal...


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## DonPetro (Nov 3, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Sorry!..but is cilantro same as coriander? (Same family of parsley? Persil in french...!)
> Cause if it is...this plant do not like direct sun...and it is very resistant!
> I have some in the garden too...lol...
> I also have mint...and the last peperoni who finish...!





ShLUbY said:


> yes, same plant. i looked at the nutrition, and it offers basically nothing, but in terms of pest resistance it's a good one!


I believe cilantro is the leafy green part and coriander are the seeds.


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## DonPetro (Nov 3, 2015)

BobBitchen said:


> I'v grown cilantro outside a few times and it was an aphid magnet
> So cal...


Man is it ever.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 3, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Man is it ever.


never had that problem here in MI! they like my tomatillo plants though...


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## ShLUbY (Nov 3, 2015)

anyone ever use this or hear about it? i'm checking the MSDS sheet right now....







EDIT: sorry here's the link http://www.growerstrust.com/products/powdery-mildew-killer?utm_medium=cpc&utm_source=googlepla&gclid=CPWLsaTq9MgCFQeKaQodMNIAcA


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## 4ftRoots (Nov 3, 2015)

I've never used geranium oil but I would suggest buying the oil pure and making your own at the percent weight they did. maybe higher or lower depending. I know citrus oil, rosemary oil, peppermint oil, neem oil, etc. and compost tea foliars can get powedery mildew but try the geranium if you haven't.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 3, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> I've never used geranium oil but I would suggest buying the oil pure and making your own at the percent weight they did. maybe higher or lower depending. I know citrus oil, rosemary oil, peppermint oil, neem oil, etc. and compost tea foliars can get powedery mildew but try the geranium if you haven't.


yeah i've been using neem and karanja, coupled with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). the alkaloid deters the fungus from growing but it's only effective when applied with an oil to keep it on the leaf. it works really good... but i need to CURE the PM, i don't want to have to keep deterring it. don't know if there is a cure!

they say that potassium bicarbonate (a food grade product) is more effective than the NaHCO3. but it's like 39% K or something like that... i'm worried about burning the leaves with it.... whatchu think?

i know that bottle is mostly water, and like you mentioned i'd source the oil before buying that bottle. was just using it as a reference if anyone had used it before. 

I'm also going to get either a germicidal bulb (which emits UVA or UVC, and ozone) to run all the time (when lights are on), or i'm just gonna get an ozone generator to run for a few minutes with fans and exhaust shut off before lights out (or right at lights out).


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## 4ftRoots (Nov 3, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i've been using neem and karanja, coupled with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). the alkaloid deters the fungus from growing but it's only effective when applied with an oil to keep it on the leaf. it works really good... but i need to CURE the PM, i don't want to have to keep deterring it. don't know if there is a cure!
> 
> they say that potassium bicarbonate (a food grade product) is more effective than the NaHCO3. but it's like 39% K or something like that... i'm worried about burning the leaves with it.... whatchu think?
> 
> ...


If you are spraying with sodium carbonate and the sodium salts don't burn the leaves then I doubt the potassium would burn the leaves if used the same and sprayed with water in between each treatment.
From what I know about chem the potassium and sodium bicarbonate are exactly the same except for the sodium or potassium ion.
I would think the sodium would burn before the potassium burns because sodium ties up more water. But I am not a botanist so take that how you want.
edit: So I would go for it and test a plant first.


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## 4ftRoots (Nov 3, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i've been using neem and karanja, coupled with sodium bicarbonate (baking soda). the alkaloid deters the fungus from growing but it's only effective when applied with an oil to keep it on the leaf. it works really good... but i need to CURE the PM, i don't want to have to keep deterring it. don't know if there is a cure!


Try tea tree oil. I would start really low concentration and work your way up because it is so strong. Back in the day a hospital used it to clean a super bug because it was so strong. I would say if tea tree can't do it your screwed. It is probably the easiest to burn.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 3, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> If you are spraying with sodium carbonate and the sodium salts don't burn the leaves then I doubt the potassium would burn the leaves if used the same and sprayed with water in between each treatment.
> From what I know about chem the potassium and sodium bicarbonate are exactly the same except for the sodium or potassium ion.
> I would think the sodium would burn before the potassium burns because sodium ties up more water. But I am not a botanist so take that how you want.
> edit: So I would go for it and test a plant first.


yeah for sure, i agree, looking at it from a chemistry standpoint, they're basically the same thing... maybe the potassium will even benefit the plant instead of the sodium... 

i will get some, and do some test of a few leaves.


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## Kind Sir (Nov 3, 2015)

Ive gotten a few recipes but left my notebook @ work.

I finally have most of my amendments, and wanted to start "cooking" it today. I have..

1 bag Roots Organic Original
1/2 bag Ocean Forest

Purple cow compost
EWC
Perlite (Miracl gro)*?
Sphagnum peat moss (Miracl gro)*?

Fish bone meal
Alfalfa meal
Kelp meal
Crab Shell Meal
Oyster shell flour
Peruvian seabird guano 

Glacial rock dust
Coco coir

Id like to add neem seed meal and another mineral, but am curious if I can get by with what I have. Suggestions on recipe/ratios?


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## ShLUbY (Nov 3, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Ive gotten a few recipes but left my notebook @ work.
> 
> I finally have most of my amendments, and wanted to start "cooking" it today. I have..
> 
> ...


you could get by with that, neem seed will be good to add, i think gypsum would be a great addition. BAS has a nice product. i'm sure amazon has some gypsum as well.

1/2cup per cuft of the fishbone, kelp, crab shell, oyster shell.
1/4cup-1/2cup alfalfa (have read it can be "hot" ingredient). I'm not sure as of yet, been mixing it at 1/4cup. i'm composting it from now on though i think, like greasemonkeymannn does. 
2 cups per cuft of rock dust
the coir should be mixed with the peat in your base mix. 

general base mix: 1 part peat/coir, 1 part drainage, 1 part compost/EWC measure so you can get total cuft. add amendments accordingly.


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## anzohaze (Nov 3, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Ive gotten a few recipes but left my notebook @ work.
> 
> I finally have most of my amendments, and wanted to start "cooking" it today. I have..
> 
> ...


If you keep neem from bas or kisorganics get the 50/50 neem karanja meal mix.
Gypsum, bentonite,rock phosphate, for mineral(plenty more just named a few common) you have. A worm bin correct? If so feed your worms your ammendments alfalfa, kelp, etc so when you top dress is all readily available as its been broken down already


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## ShLUbY (Nov 3, 2015)

anzohaze said:


> If you keep neem from bad or kisorga mics get the 50/50 neem karanja meal
> Gypsum, bentonite,rock phosphate, for mineral(plenty more just named a few common) you have. A worm bin correct? If so feed your worms your ammendments alfalfa, kelp, etc so when you top dress is all readily available as its been broken down already


you ever use the bentonite? i have a lb bag, but don't know how to apply per cuft. i mean it's clay... 1 cup in 2 cubic ft of soil is <1%... i wouldn't think that would hurt right?


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## anzohaze (Nov 3, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> you ever use the bentonite? i have a lb bag, but don't know how to apply per cuft. i mean it's clay... 1 cup in 2 cubic ft of soil is <1%... i wouldn't think that would hurt right?


Honesty man use less you can always add more I always use light and add later for safety reasons as I over due every damn thing


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## Kind Sir (Nov 3, 2015)

anzohaze said:


> If you keep neem from bad or kisorga mics get the 50/50 neem karanja meal
> Gypsum, bentonite,rock phosphate, for mineral(plenty more just named a few common) you have. A worm bin correct? If so feed your worms your ammendments alfalfa, kelp, etc so when you top dress is all readily available as its been broken down already


Yes I have a worm bin. How should I add the amendments? I used newspaper, leaves, cardboard and a little ocean forest. 1K worms in 27gal tote.


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## anzohaze (Nov 3, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Yes I have a worm bin. How should I add the amendments? I used newspaper, leaves, cardboard and a little ocean forest. 1K worms in 27gal tote.


I feed them scraps. Let them dry (learned that the hard way ) and as with ammendments when I give th em scraps I dust the fruit with a lil kelp here add crab shell, bentonite there add a a lil dash of alfalfa etc I act like is a food I am cooking and just like Emeril live it and kick it up a notch lol I just go with it don't do much.minerals


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## DonPetro (Nov 4, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Ive gotten a few recipes but left my notebook @ work.
> 
> I finally have most of my amendments, and wanted to start "cooking" it today. I have..
> 
> ...


I would be careful with the MG perlite...check the bag. They even put chem nutes in that.


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## GreenSanta (Nov 4, 2015)

Horsetail tea for powdery mildew. Also do u run ur exhaust fan 24/7? High relative humidity spikes at lights off would make it hard to get rid of it.


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## GreenSanta (Nov 4, 2015)

With LEDs I use fresh air from inside the house so at light off I run a dehumidifier because I also exhaust in the house


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## bizfactory (Nov 4, 2015)

anzohaze said:


> you have. A worm bin correct? If so feed your worms your ammendments alfalfa, kelp, etc so when you top dress is all readily available as its been broken down already


Not directed at me but...I only have a normal compost bin, no worms. Would adding the kelp and alfalfa work well in that too? A friend and I were discussing that earlier this week.


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## anzohaze (Nov 4, 2015)

bizfactory said:


> Not directed at me but...I only have a normal compost bin, no worms. Would adding the kelp and alfalfa work well in that too? A friend and I were discussing that earlier this week.


A compost bin has microbes in such so adding kelp excetera would probably benefit


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## Rrog (Nov 4, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> Horsetail tea for powdery mildew. Also do u run ur exhaust fan 24/7? High relative humidity spikes at lights off would make it hard to get rid of it.


Silica in horsetail is one of the items that triggers immune response also


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## ShLUbY (Nov 4, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Silica in horsetail is one of the items that triggers immune response also


i walked through so much horsetail today.... why didn't i grab any?


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## littlejacob (Nov 4, 2015)

Bonjour
Do you have an organic recipe against spider...I think I have some but not a lot...and don't want to go chemicals! 
Thanks
Have a great day ★


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## GreenSanta (Nov 4, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> i walked through so much horsetail today.... why didn't i grab any?


Reminds me I should use it as mulch in my pots... why didn't u grab any! Wiki it up its the only plants that reproduces via spores, it's one of the most ancient plant on earth.


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## Rrog (Nov 4, 2015)

You probably have enough silica in your blood. Your brain didn't tell you to stop 

Or such


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## ShLUbY (Nov 4, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> Reminds me I should use it as mulch in my pots... why didn't u grab any! Wiki it up its the only plants that reproduces via spores, it's one of the most ancient plant on earth.


it's the only living GENUS in Equisetaseae that reproduces via spores. there are many plants in Bryophyta phylum that reproduce with spores, like mosses. and yes they are of the first evolutions of plants on earth! cool shit. hard to believe something that old is still growing today. touche evolution.

dude, use them as mulch???... GENIUS! i'm gonna get a bunch next time i go.


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## BigDoobie (Nov 5, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> that is exactly what it is. was just curious because they were talking about the silica in it. but im gonna get some glacial rock dust and i'm pretty sure that's gonna cover the silica along with the other 3 kinds of dust i have lol. i'll mulch dandelion too. come to think of it, i bet any kind of arugula or leaf lettuce would be a good silica source... all of the heirloom stuff that i grow oozes that milky white juice when i tear a leaf off of it just like the dandelion does. i love when the mind pieces things like that together mid post haha.


Hey Shluby. Got a few questions for you. How much rock dust did you add? Also, have you used a silica product before? I'm wondering if you were able to get the same results using rock dusts without using any silica product.


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## BigDoobie (Nov 5, 2015)

Can I get results just like (quality/quantity) the best soil mixes, grows, watering regime or whatever you have with using the recipe below with water only and top dressed as needed? 

1/3 peat 1/3 compost 1/3 aeration
biochar
rock dusts
oyster shell flour
neem+karanja
kelp
crab


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## ShLUbY (Nov 5, 2015)

BigDoobie said:


> Hey Shluby. Got a few questions for you. How much rock dust did you add? Also, have you used a silica product before? I'm wondering if you were able to get the same results using rock dusts without using any silica product.


Hey BD, in a couple of my mixes at first i was going as high as 4 cups per cuft rock dusts. lately i have been leaning towards 2 cuft of rock dust. can always amend more if needed. rock dusts will contain silica, especially glacial dusts because they tend to have a good mix of rocks (igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic!). 

i have not added a silica product before on its own. I know that pumice and scoria are silicates and they have a very low solubility of silica, but has some nonetheless. I'm going to start using the horsetail as a mulch instead of the barley straw... horsetail contains a good amount of silica because it grows in sandy areas and takes in the silica that dissolves from the sand very slowly. Also greens can contain silica, like dandelion, and can be dried or used fresh to brew a tea. 

currently, I'm probably not the best one to ask, because i'm new to the whole ROLS thing, and i have no results to show yet, but i will soon! I think i'm going to pick up some agsil (potassium silicate) and see if i notice any results in a side by side with a control. i have a lot of challenges on my list to do lol, just for my own experience.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 5, 2015)

BigDoobie said:


> Can I get results just like (quality/quantity) the best soil mixes, grows, watering regime or whatever you have with using the recipe below with water only and top dressed as needed?
> 
> 1/3 peat 1/3 compost 1/3 aeration
> biochar
> ...


just make sure your biochar is charged properly or it will rob the nutrients from your soil.

that mix above is a winner for a lot of people. other things to consider to the mix are gypsum and fishbone meal.


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## BigDoobie (Nov 5, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> just make sure your biochar is charged properly or it will rob the nutrients from your soil.
> 
> that mix above is a winner for a lot of people. other things to consider to the mix are gypsum and fishbone meal.


Thanks. I've skipped the fishbone meal but I do have gypsum in my initial mix, just not going to use it anymore because of the high mg, so I didnt list it. I've ditched the whole watering regimen no till people have been using also. I did it for awhile and was not really pleased with all the products I had. No aloe, tm7 or ful power anymore, didnt see much use for them. I'm going to choose between coconut or malted barley sst and try to find a substitute for silica.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 5, 2015)

BigDoobie said:


> Thanks. I've skipped the fishbone meal but I do have gypsum in my initial mix, just not going to use it anymore because of the high mg, so I didnt list it. I've ditched the whole watering regimen no till people have been using also. I did it for awhile and was not really pleased with all the products I had. No aloe, tm7 or ful power anymore, didnt see much use for them. I'm going to choose between coconut or malted barley sst and try to find a substitute for silica.


cool man. im going to do some water only side by sides down the line, i'll do 4 plants under 1 light, 2 water only, 2 with all the tricks, and like to see the diff.

I agree about the ful power, if you have good humus you shouldn't need this product. i don't have the best humus atm, so i'm gonna be using it once every couple of weeks with my compost teas.


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## BigDoobie (Nov 5, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> Hey BD, in a couple of my mixes at first i was going as high as 4 cups per cuft rock dusts. lately i have been leaning towards 2 cuft of rock dust. can always amend more if needed. rock dusts will contain silica, especially glacial dusts because they tend to have a good mix of rocks (igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic!).
> 
> i have not added a silica product before on its own. I know that pumice and scoria are silicates and they have a very low solubility of silica, but has some nonetheless. I'm going to start using the horsetail as a mulch instead of the barley straw... horsetail contains a good amount of silica because it grows in sandy areas and takes in the silica that dissolves from the sand very slowly. Also greens can contain silica, like dandelion, and can be dried or used fresh to brew a tea.
> 
> currently, I'm probably not the best one to ask, because i'm new to the whole ROLS thing, and i have no results to show yet, but i will soon! I think i'm going to pick up some agsil (potassium silicate) and see if i notice any results in a side by side with a control. i have a lot of challenges on my list to do lol, just for my own experience.


I've got rock dusts @2 cups per cubic feet and when I stopped using agsil for a few weeks, the new growth on my veg plants were flimsier. Was worried that adding too much would be a bad thing. I just started ROLS and no-till also. What kind of areas can you find horsetail fern? I'm thinking of collecting some and using it for worm food,compost and mulch. That would probably create a compost with all the silica you'd need since you really dont need much. 



ShLUbY said:


> cool man. im going to do some water only side by sides down the line, i'll do 4 plants under 1 light, 2 water only, 2 with all the tricks, and like to see the diff.
> 
> I agree about the ful power, if you have good humus you shouldn't need this product. i don't have the best humus atm, so i'm gonna be using it once every couple of weeks with my compost teas.


That would be a good idea for a side by side. My guess is the coconut, sst, and agsil would be the game changers over water only. I'm wondering how much of a difference the coconut and sst makes over good soil. I haven't gone without it yet.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 5, 2015)

BigDoobie said:


> I've got rock dusts @2 cups per cubic feet and when I stopped using agsil for a few weeks, the new growth on my veg plants were flimsier. Was worried that adding too much would be a bad thing. I just started ROLS and no-till also. What kind of areas can you find horsetail fern? I'm thinking of collecting some and using it for worm food,compost and mulch. That would probably create a compost with all the silica you'd need since you really dont need much.
> 
> 
> That would be a good idea for a side by side. My guess is the coconut, sst, and agsil would be the game changers over water only. I'm wondering how much of a difference the coconut and sst makes over good soil. I haven't gone without it yet.


right on. i'll let you know if i experience any flimsy stems at first with the no-tills.

you can find horsetail in sandy areas by water. so for my area of MI, i find it by lake huron shores in the the transition point between the beach and the forest. and also in riverbottom alluvial flood plains. you'll find areas of sand sorted by water, and the horsetail grows like crazy in those soils. again, seems to be in the transition between floodplain and forest. i think with some worms in the no-tills, the horsetail will be a great mulch! 

I found a couple worms by my compost pile today and threw them in the no-till pots. i don't know if they'll stay, but they looked like they were slurping stuff off the soil particles. i'm gonna start trimming my living mulch soon, and i think they'll like that!


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## Rrog (Nov 5, 2015)

Fun read!!! Great stuff


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## futant (Nov 8, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> ... but i need to CURE the PM,....


 excuse my ignorance but I was under the impression PM was a systemic infection all the way down to the DNA level.
I was under the impression the only way to CURE PM was to treat with bacteria that also infects systemically down to the DNA level (SERENADE for example); then shortly after, take a fresh growth only cutting from post treatment and do a CLOROX (apologies I am saying this on this thread guys) dip of the entire cutting (as per tissue culture methodology) THEN transplant the cutting and attempt to save it from all the stress in quarrentine.


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## Vnsmkr (Nov 8, 2015)

futant said:


> excuse my ignorance but I was under the impression PM was a systemic infection all the way down to the DNA level.
> I was under the impression the only way to CURE PM was to treat with bacteria that also infects systemically down to the DNA level (SERENADE for example); then shortly after, take a fresh growth only cutting from post treatment and do a CLOROX (apologies I am saying this on this thread guys) dip of the entire cutting (as per tissue culture methodology) THEN transplant the cutting and attempt to save it from all the stress in quarrentine.


Futant I am under the same umbrella. Am I wrong?


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## hyroot (Nov 8, 2015)

Pm can be both. Systemic (std) pm seems to start at the base of the leaf closest to the buds. Environmentally caused pm is more blotchy and on any leaf. That is caused by fluctuations in humidity and poor airflow.

Any plant that has systemic pm is usually due to poor genetic selection and poor breeding. . Can be cured by spraying and watering with a botanical tea with plant material that is resistant to pm. That resistant plant material will be carrying that said bacteria.


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## AllDayToker (Nov 8, 2015)

I'm looking to throw a small batch of veg soil until I have my new soil sit for a while and build up the microbe colony.

Can someone help me with something simple with what I have on hand?

I have vermiculite, peat moss, vermicompost, worm castings, bone meal, a little alfalfa meal, kelp meal, and dolomite lime. I have some left over soil I can use as filler too.

Just trying to fill five 1 gallon pots for some clones.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 8, 2015)

futant said:


> excuse my ignorance but I was under the impression PM was a systemic infection all the way down to the DNA level.
> I was under the impression the only way to CURE PM was to treat with bacteria that also infects systemically down to the DNA level (SERENADE for example); then shortly after, take a fresh growth only cutting from post treatment and do a CLOROX (apologies I am saying this on this thread guys) dip of the entire cutting (as per tissue culture methodology) THEN transplant the cutting and attempt to save it from all the stress in quarrentine.


yes you are correct PM is/can be systemic. The way i am fighting the PM systemically is trying to activate the plant into producing chitinase enzymes which should attack the fungal walls of the fungi inside the plant. The bicarbonate and neem mixture has been working FANTASTIC at preventing conidiophores from forming on the leaves. I'm also gonna get a germicidal bulb that produces ozone. i feel if you prevent new infections from starting by airborne spores, the plant will eventually work to destroy the fungus. I could be wrong about that.

PM was so bad outside this year i think it drifted in on my 9lb hammer and dr. who from me going outside, working on the garden and bringing it in on my clothes or something, or just the air draft even. i'm not really sure.

i have not been having fluctuations of humidity, and i have changed my whole air flow situation and there's no way its poor right now lol. but with that being said, my breakouts have been near zero, and when i see one spot, i just treat everything. so there is little chance they are spreading any spores currently. i've been watching closely every day 

plants are looking fantastic and what i'm doing is working... hopefully i won't have to keep doing it for a lot longer....

thanks for the info guys @hyroot @futant


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## futant (Nov 8, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> The way i am fighting the PM systemically is trying to activate the plant into producing chitinase enzymes which should attack the fungal walls of the fungi inside the plant. @hyroot @futant


have you considered organic insect frass?
http://www.onfrass.com/use.html


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## ShLUbY (Nov 8, 2015)

futant said:


> have you considered organic insect frass?
> http://www.onfrass.com/use.html


yeah i have a tab pulled up i need to read still. i'm still new to the organics so i'm learning and reading all the time lol


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## GreenSanta (Nov 8, 2015)

futant said:


> have you considered organic insect frass?
> http://www.onfrass.com/use.html


I do, by encouraging all kinds of bugs in my soil... looking under the mulch is crazy full of life, loaded with insect frass...


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## ShLUbY (Nov 8, 2015)

GreenSanta said:


> I do, by encouraging all kinds of bugs in my soil... looking under the mulch is crazy full of life, loaded with insect frass...


ok, i have an order i need to place as BAS. Frass will be included on the list.


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## BigDoobie (Nov 9, 2015)

Anyone have foxtailing or prolonged flowering due to over application of sst? I've been using barley and thinking about switching to corn. Any reason not to? Im pretty sure barley has higher dp levels but might not matter if its that easy to over apply.


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## 4ftRoots (Nov 9, 2015)

BigDoobie said:


> Anyone have foxtailing or prolonged flowering due to over application of sst? I've been using barley and thinking about switching to corn. Any reason not to? Im pretty sure barley has higher dp levels but might not matter if its that easy to over apply.


I apply SST until 2 weeks left on any strain. I usually see that strains finish faster and after every application they smell much stronger. I use the recommended 1 oz or 2 tbsp per gallon. They say the minimum should be 1 tbsp per gallon.


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## hyroot (Nov 9, 2015)

I only get fox tailing with strains that are supposed to fox tail. Sst never has caused that for me. I apply sst up til 2nd or 3rd to last watering and like 4ft said it makes the plants / buds far more pungent and brings out a more pungent flavor too. Minerals and sugars - brix levels go up


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## AllDayToker (Nov 10, 2015)

Hey can someone help me out with a couple questions?

I recently got a 30 gallon tote. I plan on using it to keep good soil in. I want to be able to always have some good soil ready to go.

It will be filled with recycled soil, as well as leaves/stems. And I plan on watering it regularly with compost/worm casting teas.

My first question is should I drill drain holes in the bottom for excess water, or possibly just one large drain spout? 

Also, I obviously have to control moisture and keep it moist so the soil stays alive, but not too moist where it starts to go bad. Should I do some kind of venting on the lid, or will the lid being loose on top be enough?

And if there is anything else you would suggestion adding to the soil, or any other ideas, please let me know!

Thanks!
ADT


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2015)

You could drain the soil if you don't plan on turning it. I don't. I regularly turn my soil mixes. Which are mostly the same thing. Recycled soil , leaves, oats. Been broke as shit lately (bills) so haven't been able to buy worm castings and don't have any to harvest yet. So been making leaf mold in the same manner.

Yeah keep a lid on it. It helps trap and redistribute moisture in the soil. It's good turn the soil every few days. At least once a week.


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## AllDayToker (Nov 10, 2015)

hyroot said:


> You could drain the soil if you don't plan on turning it. I don't. I regularly turn my soil mixes. Which are mostly the same thing. Recycled soil , leaves, oats. Been broke as shit lately (bills) so haven't been able to buy worm castings and don't have any to harvest yet. So been making leaf mold in the same manner.


Well I don't have a problem turning it. I just figured a full 30g tote would be pretty heavy to lift up and down off a shelf. The shelf is only a foot or so off the ground so not a huge lift.

So if I don't need drainage what about moisture control? Should I drill holes in the lid or will just laying the lid on the top but not snapping it shut be sufficient enough?

Anything else you would suggest adding that might aid in the soil besides basic compost/worm casting/microbe adding teas?


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## littlejacob (Nov 10, 2015)

Bonjour
I am interested too...
If I made hole in my soil box isn't it a problem since a lots of undesirable insects could go in!??
I bought a 280L (70gl) garden box to "cook" my soil and in winter it's easy to keep it wet (moistured!?) 
So is it ok if I don't make hole?!
Have a great day ★


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## AllDayToker (Nov 10, 2015)

I think I might plan on making a slightly slanted bottom and sealing it up and have it so any moisture will run off into a bottom tray to a spout.

Kind of like how my worm factory works. I mean it won't hurt and any run off I can give to the plants since I will only be feeding compost teas.

The way the spout will work is just a switch that opens and closes it like the worm factory, so no bugs.


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## 4ftRoots (Nov 10, 2015)

hyroot said:


> You could drain the soil if you don't plan on turning it. I don't. I regularly turn my soil mixes. Which are mostly the same thing. Recycled soil , leaves, oats. Been broke as shit lately (bills) so haven't been able to buy worm castings and don't have any to harvest yet. So been making leaf mold in the same manner.
> 
> Yeah keep a lid on it. It helps trap and redistribute moisture in the soil. It's good turn the soil every few days. At least once a week.


Do you use regular rolled oats? I'm looking for magnesium sources. Thanks


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2015)

4ftRoots said:


> Do you use regular rolled oats? I'm looking for magnesium sources. Thanks



Yeah. I get the organic oats in the barrels at sprouts market. They are around a $1 a pound.

Ironically I'm right next to a horse neighborhood and there are no close feed stores nearby.

Oats are a full spectrum of trace minerals and nutes. But Oyster shell flour is great for mag too.


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## Vnsmkr (Nov 10, 2015)

My neighbor owns fishing boats and a seafood business which deals in squid, crab, oysters, & fish. Fkn warehouse is 1 minute down my street. Hit me yesterday that I am about to hit him up for all the shells, not sure why that never clicked before!


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## 4ftRoots (Nov 10, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Yeah. I get the organic oats in the barrels at sprouts market. They are around a $1 a pound.
> 
> Ironically I'm right next to a horse neighborhood and there are no close feed stores nearby.
> 
> Oats are a full spectrum of trace minerals and nutes. But Oyster shell flour is great for mag too.


What a great price


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## littlejacob (Nov 10, 2015)

Bonjour
I went in the woods seek for mushrooms (orange and brown on the top...chanterelle in french...delicious! ) and I saw a lot of "worm shit"!
Is it good to collect and add to the soil...there's a lot of it on the floor!?
Have a nice day!


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## AllDayToker (Nov 10, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> I went in the woods seek for mushrooms (orange and brown on the top...chanterelle in french...delicious! ) and I saw a lot of "worm shit"!
> Is it good to collect and add to the soil...there's a lot of it on the floor!?
> Have a nice day!


I would like to think all of that top soil in the woods is full of microbes and life. But I guess it somewhat depends on the trees, don't want something acidic like pine needles from ever greens.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 10, 2015)

ok 80lbs of worm power castings, insect frass, agsil,


littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> I went in the woods seek for mushrooms (orange and brown on the top...chanterelle in french...delicious! ) and I saw a lot of "worm shit"!
> Is it good to collect and add to the soil...there's a lot of it on the floor!?
> Have a nice day!


i love chanterelles! our season here is july-august! i pick them around oak trees. what kind of trees do you find them by in france?


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## littlejacob (Nov 10, 2015)

Bonjour
Same trees...sometimes it hide under the green think who grow under oak(moss?)...but there's pines too...so I can take some worm shit under oak and maybe some moss (tree moss!)??
CU


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## ShLUbY (Nov 10, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Same trees...sometimes it hide under the green think who grow under oak(moss?)...but there's pines too...so I can take some worm shit under oak and maybe some moss (tree moss!)??
> CU



i was wondering if moss would actually make a good living mulch.... it doesnt have roots, and doesn't require much of anything at all... good for moisture retention! 

yeah i was thinking about doing the same as you, jacob, and getting some soil from the most mature forest i could find for a good fungal soil. this would be similar to like "ancient forest" product IMO, but with living fungi in it most likely. I would also get some soil from a good clean field with grasses, as the grasses prefer a bacterial soil. I may do this in my next mix. or in a small experimental batch most likely.


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## AllDayToker (Nov 11, 2015)

Well I think my plan now is just to say screw it haha.

Going to just throw in all of my recycled soil, leaves and cut up stalks from previous harvests then just water the hell out of it with compost/casting teas to get a nice and large microbe colony.

No drainage, no ventilation. Just going to keep an eye on it make sure it doesn't go bad or something.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 11, 2015)

anyone using cottonseed meal out there? isn't that stuff kinda.... contaminated? from what i remember cotton was a crop that lots of pesticides were used in the fields. Now they are growing rice in some of the old cotton fields, and having arsenic problems with the rice..... just curious. I guess, to a degree, nowadays just about everything is contaminated.


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## 4ftRoots (Nov 11, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> anyone using cottonseed meal out there? isn't that stuff kinda.... contaminated? from what i remember cotton was a crop that lots of pesticides were used in the fields. Now they are growing rice in some of the old cotton fields, and having arsenic problems with the rice..... just curious. I guess, to a degree, nowadays just about everything is contaminated.


Yeah I wouldn't use the cottonseed meal. I was at a nursery that recommended me otherwise too. They only had one bag and it was apparently included free in the shipment. He was not planning on using it and we knew either other so he was nice enough to not let me buy it lol.


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## DonPetro (Nov 11, 2015)

@AllDayToker your soil mix should never be so wet as to need drainage holes.


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## AllDayToker (Nov 11, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> @AllDayToker your soil mix should never be so wet as to need drainage holes.


That's good to know. I was thinking of it more for run off while I'm feeding the teas to boost up the microbes.

No extra holes in the tote just makes life easier haha.


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## littlejacob (Nov 11, 2015)

Bonjour
I am going to try moss in one of pot...
Same with worm"natural casting"!
Thanks guys...with you organic's cheaper! 
And mixing orga and cobs is the best combo I ever dream about...!
Have a great day ★


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## Scotch089 (Nov 11, 2015)

No doubt, talk about efficient...


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## Dr.4:20 (Nov 15, 2015)

New guy here, 2 weeks from harvest on my first grow, wanted to give the ROLS a try. Theres no way I could have time to read this whole thread (maybe I'll get to the end someday) Just mixed up a batch that ended up being about 80 gallons. Was wondering if I can get some opinions on my recipe from the experts, maybe let me know what if anything I should add, shouldnt have added, more of, less of, so on. 
1 1/4 Bale sunshine #4
1/2 Bag Happy Frog (leftover)
1/2 Bag Ocean Forest (leftover)
30 Lb Local EWC
2 cuft Coco
10 Ltr bag of Clay pepples for a little extra aeration.
2-3 cups Dolomite Lime
2 Cups Diatomaceous earth powder
1/2 cup powdered Azomite
1 cup granular azomite
1 cup Bone meal
1 cup Blood meal
1 cup 10-3-1 guano
1 cup Alfalfa meal
2 cup kelp meal

Its currently stewing but would like to know if maybe i should add to it before use, let me know!!


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## ShLUbY (Nov 15, 2015)

Dr.4:20 said:


> New guy here, 2 weeks from harvest on my first grow, wanted to give the ROLS a try. Theres no way I could have time to read this whole thread (maybe I'll get to the end someday) Just mixed up a batch that ended up being about 80 gallons. Was wondering if I can get some opinions on my recipe from the experts, maybe let me know what if anything I should add, shouldnt have added, more of, less of, so on.
> 1 1/4 Bale sunshine #4
> 1/2 Bag Happy Frog (leftover)
> 1/2 Bag Ocean Forest (leftover)
> ...


yeah it's gonna need some tweaking. here's a quick guide of how your mix should be put together.... 

looks to me, from your recipe, like you have about: 7cuft of peat and coco (assuming the bale was 3.8cuft of sunshine, which expands to probably 6cuft. when broken up and moistened + the little extra u added), 4cuft of drainage, and 1cuft. of EWC. A _good _base mix is of equal (or close to equal) parts EWC/compost, Peat/coco, and drainage. 

if you do anything to your base mix, please get more worm castings/compost, as humus is your best friend when it comes to the soil food web. you may or may not think you need the drainage, but i would say add some more as well. i REALLY like the growstone from the growstore if you have that available. recycled glass turned into pumice. holds water and air and performs CEC! lava rock, rice hulls, pumice, perlite (though not a favorite of many). all those will work fine.

now for the amendments and liming agents...

you should have about 2-3cups/cuft of your *total* food amendment mix (this is the guano, kelp, alfalfa, bone meal, whatever you're using all added together). generally people don't use more than 1/2cup per cuft. of one item. SO..... 80 gal of soil(which is about to become more i hope from adding EWC and drainage ) is just shy of 11cuft. so total you should have at least 22cups (if not 30) of plant food amendments in there. your total right now is 6. so you're shy on food by a bit.

rock dusts should be at 2cups per cuft. total, and variety is a good thing here. lots of micronutes, and minerals. (DE, azomite, powdered basalt, glacial, greensand, ect).

if you have more dolomite you can use that. if not, grab some oyster shell flour for diversity. its more quickly available by solubility, and will help you out until the dolomite starts to work in the mix. use oyster shell flour (or dolomite) at 1/2cup per cuft.

Good luck, and if you roll with the mix you have now, i'm gonna say you're gonna have some issues! don't take it personal, i'm just trying to help you. BTW, you don't need to read the whole thread, but if you just read the first 50 pages even, the bulk of the good stuff is in those first pages, so take the time and do some research or you'll be sorry


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## Dr.4:20 (Nov 15, 2015)

Definitely won't take it personally, this is what I wanted! I was sure I was going to need to tweak it but thought I'd let those with experience tell me how. Double the dolomite, 60more lbs of ewc, I'll source some more rock dusts, and grab some more drainage. I have some growstones I got as a sample but I wasnt sure how good they were in soil.
As far as the rest of the food, I was scared to add too much because I had read certain things could be too hot. Bone meal blood meal and guano, more? Less? Most recipes I saw didn't have a ton of alfalfa or kelp either


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## ShLUbY (Nov 15, 2015)

Dr.4:20 said:


> Definitely won't take it personally, this is what I wanted! I was sure I was going to need to tweak it but thought I'd let those with experience tell me how. Double the dolomite, 60more lbs of ewc, I'll source some more rock dusts, and grab some more drainage. I have some growstones I got as a sample but I wasnt sure how good they were in soil.
> As far as the rest of the food, I was scared to add too much because I had read certain things could be too hot. Bone meal blood meal and guano, more? Less? Most recipes I saw didn't have a ton of alfalfa or kelp either


if you're going to be buying more amendments, i think things like Crab shell meal, Oyster shell flour, Neem seed meal, Gypsum, and Fishbone Meal would be FAR better options than guanos and bone/blood meals. the items i listed are much less water soluble, have a wider variety of beneficial things like micronutrients and pest deterrence as well as others, they require more breakdown by microbes which is what you want; bonus, they more healthy to your own environment. bone/blood meals and guanos can be nasty stuff, and many here will attest that they're unnecessary, including myself. some don't feel the need to use animal byproducts, in order to lessen their impact on the planet and uphold their own morals and values for animals.


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## ivioto (Nov 17, 2015)

Solis PH is back down again. Have been running doing well for a year breaking down root balls letting piles sit for months turning snd keeping moist. Amending following the thread closely.

Unable to hold a PH of 7 to achieve nitrification. I'm aware listening and juggling the best i can. Don't want to overdue the oyster or gypsum, and don't use lime. What the heck do i do. So much damn soil down here and frankly loving it... Globally my soil PH spirals down over 6 to 12 months. 

Less is more is how I've been playing this past year and its helped me learn lots. Now what? Any takers on this one?


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## ShLUbY (Nov 17, 2015)

ivioto said:


> Solis PH is back down again. Have been running doing well for a year breaking down root balls letting piles sit for months turning snd keeping moist. Amending following the thread closely.
> 
> Unable to hold a PH of 7 to achieve nitrification. I'm aware listening and juggling the best i can. Don't want to overdue the oyster or gypsum, and don't use lime. What the heck do i do. So much damn soil down here and frankly loving it... Globally my soil PH spirals down over 6 to 12 months.
> 
> Less is more is how I've been playing this past year and its helped me learn lots. Now what? Any takers on this one?


i'm new to this, but i think the oyster breaks down and is available much faster, so it doesn't surprise me that Ph is dropping as the oyster flour is depleted by microbes and taken by plant. plants use a ton of Ca. i think when oyster is amended to recycled soil people are adding close to the same amount as first amending... could be wrong....


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## Joedank (Nov 17, 2015)

ivioto said:


> Solis PH is back down again. Have been running doing well for a year breaking down root balls letting piles sit for months turning snd keeping moist. Amending following the thread closely.
> 
> Unable to hold a PH of 7 to achieve nitrification. I'm aware listening and juggling the best i can. Don't want to overdue the oyster or gypsum, and don't use lime. What the heck do i do. So much damn soil down here and frankly loving it... Globally my soil PH spirals down over 6 to 12 months.
> 
> Less is more is how I've been playing this past year and its helped me learn lots. Now what? Any takers on this one?


look into burnt lime (calicium hyroxide ) it is highly alkiline and can do the trick for long and short term use ... i use a cup per C.U. foot of DE for long term soil beds and light NEEM seed meal / shrimp meal apps. to get fugus among us fed . the slipping of the ph is fine till you hit 4.5 then you must act swiftly . i stay off the peat and use coco more often . then top dress with hay and worms  my 5 year old bed still runs at 5.7 for last 3 years and just had a flush of fruiting fungus . lol the bokashi can do that alot ...


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## goodjoint (Nov 19, 2015)

Have any of you used organic brown or wild rice for a bit of aeration? Is it a bad idea to add rice to my soil mix?


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## DonPetro (Nov 19, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> Have any of you used organic brown or wild rice for a bit of aeration? Is it a bad idea to add rice to my soil mix?


Rice hulls yea but rice itself wont hold up long enough to serve as aeration. It makes great fungal food though. I always add rice to my mixes...up to a cup per cubic foot.


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## goodjoint (Nov 19, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Rice hulls yea but rice itself wont hold up long enough to serve as aeration. It makes great fungal food though. I always add rice to my mixes...up to a cup per cubic foot.


Thanks a lot Don!
Do you have your soil mix listed somewhere?


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## ShLUbY (Nov 19, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> Rice hulls yea but rice itself wont hold up long enough to serve as aeration. It makes great fungal food though. I always add rice to my mixes...up to a cup per cubic foot.


i've been feeding some rice and oatmeal to my current batch of soil. fun to watch the fungus eat it


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## goodjoint (Nov 20, 2015)

I'm about ready to mixup my soil, but I don't have my aeration yet. It will still be about a week until I have the biochar and pumice. Would it be OK to let my soil mix "cook" without the aeration in it, just to get things going? Or should I wait until I have the aeration first?


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## ShLUbY (Nov 20, 2015)

goodjoint said:


> I'm about ready to mixup my soil, but I don't have my aeration yet. It will still be about a week until I have the biochar and pumice. Would it be OK to let my soil mix "cook" without the aeration in it, just to get things going? Or should I wait until I have the aeration first?


just wait. save you from mixing it twice...


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## Kind Sir (Nov 21, 2015)

I live in midwest so it gets super cold..can I put leaves and stuff together in a rubbermaid and have it go indoors? I use a spare bathroom for my wormbin, was debating on putting compost bin in there aswell.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 21, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> I live in midwest so it gets super cold..can I put leaves and stuff together in a rubbermaid and have it go indoors? I use a spare bathroom for my wormbin, was debating on putting compost bin in there aswell.


dont see it hurting anything, just make sure you don't oversaturate it and it will continue to break down.

we're getting 5" of snow today. got the tarp over my compost pile. snow will be gone by midweek next week. i pulled my last few pounds of carrots today outta the ground for thanksgiving dinner, and my lettuce and cilantro got cut today as well. i didn't make time for a hoophouse unfortunately.


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## littlejacob (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonjour
I made olive today...took it from the trees..washed it...made a tea with herbs of provence... wild celery...and a bit of orange skin (the secret for a woderful taste!!) 80gr salt per kilo and pure water and in dark jar (olive like sun when it is alive...much less after!)
12kg of olive...lots of work!!!
Is there something I can do with the one I don't use...is there something good in olive for plants grow!??
Have a nice day!


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## Vnsmkr (Nov 21, 2015)

If its just olive branches and leaves I would compost it. If its salted already then I would toss it


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## littlejacob (Nov 21, 2015)

Bonjour
No it is fresh olives...from the trees...I talked about the ugly one I didn't use!
And the crushed one's too
CU


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## Vnsmkr (Nov 21, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> No it is fresh olives...from the trees...I talked about the ugly one I didn't use!
> And the crushed one's too
> CU


Compost them I would say


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## littlejacob (Nov 22, 2015)

Bonjour
Ok I will!
Thanks! 
So now everybody know I have organic olive...if any riu member spend Holliday in S/E France come and test it with a good pastis! No problems! 
CU!


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## Kind Sir (Nov 22, 2015)

So I wanted to add a few things to my soil recipe, I have the following items on hand already. Im going to put my questions at the bottom. 

Sphagnum peat moss
Coco coir
Perlite
Purple cow compost - derived from alfalfa, kelp, ewc, greensand, yard waste and rock dusts.
EWC

Alfalfa meal
Kelp meal
Fish bone meal
Crab shell meal
Oyster shell flour
Glacial rock dust

**Optionals**
Peruvian seabird guano
Diameticous Earth

1. Besides neem/karanja, what else would be beneficial?

2. I was looking at "red lava rocks" for my aeration..they have some at lowes/home depot Nd even walmart. What kind is for growing? I saw some were decoration, but nonetheless theyre still lava rocks. Opinions? 

3. I know Ive asked about this stuff a few times I hope noone is annoyed with me. A few people said that when using an AACT to wet the soil before it "cooks," you only have to use EWC/Compost/Blackstrap. Would adding Neptunes Fish Fert, plus possibly alfalfa/kelp be beneficial or unneccesary?


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## ShLUbY (Nov 22, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> So I wanted to add a few things to my soil recipe, I have the following items on hand already. Im going to put my questions at the bottom.
> 
> Sphagnum peat moss
> Coco coir
> ...


1. gypsum (Ca and S)

2. crush the red rock to 3/8" and smaller. it has good CEC. 

3. no necessary but not harmful. better to keep nutrient teas separate from AACT for inoculation.


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## Kind Sir (Nov 22, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> 1. gypsum (Ca and S)
> 
> 2. crush the red rock to 3/8" and smaller. it has good CEC.
> 
> 3. no necessary but not harmful. better to keep nutrient teas separate from AACT for inoculation.


Ok cool thanks, I now recall seeing people say to keep aact separate from nutrient teas. The only thing I wanted to ask is, I was looking at these lava rocks..If I rinse them real well theyre the right ones?

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-0-5-cu-ft-Decorative-Stone-Red-Lava-Rock-440897/100427379


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## ShLUbY (Nov 23, 2015)

@Rrog those the right rocks for him to crush? you use red lava rock right bud?


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## Rrog (Nov 23, 2015)

I use red lava rock, yep. And biochar to round out aeration


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## littlejacob (Nov 23, 2015)

Bonjour
Ok...red lava rocks...Another free stuff!
Thanks a lot guys...my grow cost me less almost everyday with you...lol
Lots of plant, garbage to use...and now this...red lava...there's tons of it in city gardens...I just have to find a good way to crush it!?
Do I have to aim for perlite size or smaller?
Have a nice day!


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## ShLUbY (Nov 23, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Ok...red lava rocks...Another free stuff!
> Thanks a lot guys...my grow cost me less almost everyday with you...lol
> Lots of plant, garbage to use...and now this...red lava...there's tons of it in city gardens...I just have to find a good way to crush it!?
> ...





ShLUbY said:


> 2. crush the red rock to 3/8" and smaller. it has good CEC.


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## hyroot (Nov 23, 2015)

Pumice alone aerates soil so much. Hempy perlite doesn't even aerate as much as a soil mixes with a 1/3 being pumice. I have to water 10 and 15 gal pots every 3 days even in veg that was recently transplanted.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 23, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Pumice alone aerates soil so much. Hempy perlite doesn't even aerate as much as a soil mixes with a 1/3 being pumice. I have to water 10 and 15 gal pots every 3 days even in veg that was recently transplanted.


definitely. i've been using the recycled glass pumice in my mixes, and i've been letting them dry up too much and the peat is getting hydrophobic and not saturating all the way through at waterings so i've been wetting lightly and then coming back 1/2 hour later to get the real watering done once aggregates start to moisten back up. definitely a different mix than what i was used to before, that's for sure. it really affects the plants to show sign of problem in these kind of mixes i'm noticing, whereas my old mix i was using more of the sunshine #4 and not as much worm casting as i should have, it was much much more lenient with showing sign of underwatering as far as looks of the leaves and plant. definitely gonna be on the side of slightly more moist than on the side of drying periods with the hand watered ones. the blumats are doing great though!


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## Kind Sir (Nov 23, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I use red lava rock, yep. And biochar to round out aeration


I just wanted to make sure these were the right kind. Thank you for your time my friend! (The link is the exact bag I was going to buy)

http://m.homedepot.com/p/Vigoro-0-5-cu-ft-Decorative-Stone-Red-Lava-Rock-440897/100427379


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## littlejacob (Nov 23, 2015)

Bonjour
Sorry for the question but I am not familiar with imperial system...three height of an inch...about 1cm (is there something under inch? Milli inch...micro inch...feet inch...hair?...lol!)
CU


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## ShLUbY (Nov 23, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Sorry for the question but I am not familiar with imperial system...three height of an inch...about 1cm (is there something under inch? Milli inch...micro inch...feet inch...hair?...lol!)
> CU


1cm or less sorry for the confusion


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## Rrog (Nov 23, 2015)

I bought 2 pallets of lava rock for use in my new raised vegetable beds. I'm only going to partially crush it. Given the soil volume, I'm thinking some percentage of 1.5" lava is going to be fine. 

Gotta say again how much I love biochar. It's worth adding for its aeration properties only, but of course it does so much more


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## ShLUbY (Nov 23, 2015)

Rrog said:


> I bought 2 pallets of lava rock for use in my new raised vegetable beds. I'm only going to partially crush it. Given the soil volume, I'm thinking some percentage of 1.5" lava is going to be fine.
> 
> Gotta say again how much I love biochar. It's worth adding for its aeration properties only, but of course it does so much more


how much did a pallet run you?


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## Rrog (Nov 23, 2015)

$150 I think. End of season


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## ShLUbY (Nov 24, 2015)

Rrog said:


> $150 I think. End of season


my brother just put a nice bunch of stuff in his garden beds for next year... but he didn't add any aeration to what he put in.... so i'm gonna suggest that he goes and gets something if he's going to till it all together next year. not sure what his plan is. he's comin up for a visit for the holiday so i'll talk to him then. gonna try and talk him into some rock dust too....


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## Rrog (Nov 24, 2015)

Great idea with the rock dusts.

Keep it local. So many amendments are right in your yard. I buy very little these days. And what I buy I buy as local as I can


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## Kind Sir (Nov 24, 2015)

Rrog said:


> Great idea with the rock dusts.
> 
> Keep it local. So many amendments are right in your yard. I buy very little these days. And what I buy I buy as local as I can


What do you grow yourself that you use for, growing?


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## Kind Sir (Nov 24, 2015)

Does th


hyroot said:


> Sodium thiosulfate will neutralize chlorine and other chems and breaks chloramine down into chlorine in tap water. Sodium thiosulfate is found in molasses and fish hydroslate. RO water still has chloramine.


 Does that mean I should put molassez in tap water? If so at wat ratio?


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## Rrog (Nov 24, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> What do you grow yourself that you use for, growing?


Mostly vermi-compost, as that's the mother of it all. I add the rock powders and biochar fines into the worm bins. 

The worm is the chef. I just get him ingredients


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## hyroot (Nov 24, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Does th
> 
> Does that mean I should put molassez in tap water? If so at wat ratio?



You can. I wouldn't very often. Aerating water for a day will remove chlorine too. Amount of molasses goes same as tea's. 3 tbsp per 5 gal.


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## Kind Sir (Nov 25, 2015)

hyroot said:


> You can. I wouldn't very often. Aerating water for a day will remove chlorine too. Amount of molasses goes same for teas. 3 tbsp per 5 gal.[/QUOTE
> 
> I normally let my tap sit for about 36hr, now Im using snow. Thought chloramine didnt discipate like chlorine, so was thinking using molasses would be the best bet but could cause issues. Will stockpile the snow while I can.
> 
> Can I ask what your soil recipe looks like? I understand I shouldnt be so freakt with this, but I am making my soil tonight and want t9 be confident in my ratios.


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## hyroot (Nov 28, 2015)




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## m4s73r (Nov 29, 2015)

Has anyone done vermicomposting right in their no till pot? Ive never done a worm farm before. I am about to buy one from build a soil. Im just thinking why cant i just put the worms in the pot and throw what i want composted under the mulch cover and the worms turn it into castings. I got the idea from another thread about The Garden Tower v2. Down the center is a hollow space for worm composting. Im wondering if could even do something like this right in a 20gallon no till.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 29, 2015)

m4s73r said:


> Has anyone done vermicomposting right in their no till pot? Ive never done a worm farm before. I am about to buy one from build a soil. Im just thinking why cant i just put the worms in the pot and throw what i want composted under the mulch cover and the worms turn it into castings. I got the idea from another thread about The Garden Tower v2. Down the center is a hollow space for worm composting. Im wondering if could even do something like this right in a 20gallon no till.


@Mohican grew a plant right in his trash can worm bin. so i would say it can be done!


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## littlejacob (Nov 29, 2015)

m4s73r said:


> Has anyone done vermicomposting right in their no till pot? Ive never done a worm farm before. I am about to buy one from build a soil. Im just thinking why cant i just put the worms in the pot and throw what i want composted under the mulch cover and the worms turn it into castings. I got the idea from another thread about The Garden Tower v2. Down the center is a hollow space for worm composting. Im wondering if could even do something like this right in a 20gallon no till.


Bonjour
How many worms are you going to release in 80L (20gl)?
Have a nice day!


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## m4s73r (Nov 29, 2015)

Well, as of right now i have a quarter pound of European Nightcrawlers per pot. However these are deeper in the soil. I was thinking of splitting a pound between 8 pots. Red wigglers can grow and shrink in population fairly quickly if my reading has been correct.


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## littlejacob (Nov 30, 2015)

Bonjour
Is it fs wwxbb?
And A gold from ghs?
You could have good surprise with the first and bad with the second!!!
I never use auto...well yes I did one time...never again! And never indoor!??!
Have a great day ★


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## Kind Sir (Nov 30, 2015)

I was going to buy BuildaSoils Living Soil Modern Mix today. 
Any opinions on it? I have a bunch of Amendments/compost/ewc that ill make a soil with while I use their living soil.


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## Kind Sir (Dec 1, 2015)

So I bought BuildASoils Living Soil Modern Mix, barley straw mulch, and barley seeds for SST, plus their 200x aloe Vera powder. 

My plan was to wet the Living Soil in the final 7gal smart pots with an EWC/Compost/Molasses Tea. 

1. When should I put the mulch on?
2. Should I start the plant out in a solo cup and go directly to 7 gal? Or start in like a 1gal plastic, then transplant to 7gal? I could even do 2 transplants if really necessary.


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## goodjoint (Dec 1, 2015)

Quick question about charging BioChar...
How long do I need to soak it with my urine in order to "charge" it.


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## Rrog (Dec 1, 2015)

Overnight would work. It's pretty immediate


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## Vnsmkr (Dec 1, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> So I bought BuildASoils Living Soil Modern Mix, barley straw mulch, and barley seeds for SST, plus their 200x aloe Vera powder.
> 
> My plan was to wet the Living Soil in the final 7gal smart pots with an EWC/Compost/Molasses Tea.
> 
> ...


Start the plants in solo cups, then 1 gallon pots, then to the 7 gallon pots, this way you give your roots time to grow. I'm basically on a 12-12 schedule since I am near equatorial and mine live in solo cups for about a week, then 1 gallons for close to a month, sex them, and then they go into final homes, & once established few days I start topping. 

Ill let someone else chime in on the mulch as I dont use it, but assume that would go on after your plant is in the 7 gallon pot.


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## Kind Sir (Dec 1, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> Start the plants in solo cups, then 1 gallon pots, then to the 7 gallon pots, this way you give your roots time to grow. I'm basically on a 12-12 schedule since I am near equatorial and mine live in solo cups for about a week, then 1 gallons for close to a month, sex them, and then they go into final homes, & once established few days I start topping.
> 
> Ill let someone else chime in on the mulch as I dont use it, but assume that would go on after your plant is in the 7 gallon pot.


Is there a reason you dont use it? I read that it helps build microbial levels, also helps with retaining water which is nice with organics as I read that you dont want to do wet/dry cycles as thatll kill some microbial life?


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## Vnsmkr (Dec 1, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Is there a reason you dont use it? I read that it helps build microbial levels, also helps with retaining water which is nice with organics as I read that you dont want to do wet/dry cycles as thatll kill some microbial life?


No good reason I dont use it as it would likely help bring root temps down. I just have never got around to grabbing some straw. I need to be a bit more creative than you since I am in Asia and cannot hit up buildasoil or the many online retailers...


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## Kind Sir (Dec 1, 2015)

Vnsmkr said:


> No good reason I dont use it as it would likely help bring root temps down. I just have never got around to grabbing some straw. I need to be a bit more creative than you since I am in Asia and cannot hit up buildasoil or the many online retailers...


Wow asia? That is super interesting, I have so many questions haha..

I must ask, I thought I heard the laws are scary strict there..is this true? 

In USA we have 911, what is their form of 911? 

Might be a very ignorant question, but I honestly dont know. I saw an episode of Drugs Inc and it showed a widely used drug over there that keeps people awake (obviously gets you hith as well.) I dont think it was coke or meth, do you know? 

Im really interested in traveling but dont have that opportunity at this current moment. Thanks man.


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## Vnsmkr (Dec 1, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Wow asia? That is super interesting, I have so many questions haha..
> 
> I must ask, I thought I heard the laws are scary strict there..is this true? Depends on where in Asia. I am not there
> 
> ...


----------



## littlejacob (Dec 1, 2015)

Bonjour
I believe 911 will work in many country...thanks US tv series (I watch too much of...all sf!) I tryed it in France and you reach police but do they speak English???
My cousin wife is from Thailand we are just farang for them...lol.I went there one time and yes yabba is a very popular shit there...when you see the people who take some everyday...you don't want to try that horrible chemical drug...never...I guess it is like H! (But worse for health! )
@Vnsmkr you are very brave or have good connection to grow hemp there...!
I tried very specific weed there...but it was always with EU or US guys and never in public place...
You're lucky...my cousin went back today from Thailand...I will see him tomorrow...it is a very beautiful country with a lot of things to do and to see...wonderful people and culture! 
Have a great day ★


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## calliandra (Dec 3, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Sorry for the question but I am not familiar with imperial system...three height of an inch...about 1cm (is there something under inch? Milli inch...micro inch...feet inch...hair?...lol!)
> CU


Haha yeah I have that all the time too, little jacob 

Google is my friend alot since I've joined RIU:
https://www.google.at/search?q=inch+to+centimeters

You can change to all sorts of different measurements, also feet, gallons, and other mysteries


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## calliandra (Dec 3, 2015)

hyroot said:


>


Ah yes, that really brings to consciousness to a) source locally and b) research what the merits of available stuff are and how they can be used to make well-balanced soil mixes. Exciting adventure!


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## littlejacob (Dec 3, 2015)

calliandra said:


> Haha yeah I that all the time too, little jacob
> 
> Google is my friend alot since II've joined RIU:
> https://www.google.at/search?q=inch+to+centimeters
> ...


Bonjour
Thanks i get the inch/foot things (2 and 30cm...a la louche!) But i just watch a "footer"? Something to mesure distances...and wtf!...there no ten graduations between 1 and 2 feet!?!?...how many 16? (Now i understand the 3/8 and 5/8!!!)
No it was just to have reference (thanks Pr ttystik!) Now I know 32º is freezing and 204º is boiling...so i can guess that 90 is summer and 40 is not so hot...i guess 65/70º is a good temp!
For the weight...everybody speak in gr so it is ok...or zip...i guess it is an oz (29gr)
But i only need to know my room temp...and since i switch to cxb 3590 i don't have this problem anymore...even without extraction fan!
No more hps for me before this summer!
Those lights are so amazing!
CU


----------



## cannakis (Dec 8, 2015)

hyroot said:


> That plant looks horrible. Tons of spider mite damage and deficiencies. Back to the drawing board for you.


Hahaha! Like me! What do you suggest to rid mites?!? @Pattahabi what do you suggest? Thanks so much guys!


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## DonPetro (Dec 8, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> View attachment 3556313
> Bonjour
> Thanks i get the inch/foot things (2 and 30cm...a la louche!) But i just watch a "footer"? Something to mesure distances...and wtf!...there no ten graduations between 1 and 2 feet!?!?...how many 16? (Now i understand the 3/8 and 5/8!!!)
> No it was just to have reference (thanks Pr ttystik!) Now I know 32º is freezing and 204º is boiling...so i can guess that 90 is summer and 40 is not so hot...i guess 65/70º is a good temp!
> ...


My man killin it with the cobs!


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## littlejacob (Dec 8, 2015)

Bonjour
Thanks @DonPetro just a little bit of claw but I put half the amendment I normally put...the others under the hps had some liquid organic grow nutes and are light green...they just a bit more than 1/3 of the nutes or a bit less than half to perform well I guess! 
I even have the very end of the leaves burned on some under cob...I will have to adjust that for the next grow and take more care of the doses since I will reuse my soil and add new amendments to it!
CU


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## DonPetro (Dec 9, 2015)

LED makes for healthier overall plants imo so a healthier plant will have higher metabolism. 


littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Thanks @DonPetro just a little bit of claw but I put half the amendment I normally put...the others under the hps had some liquid organic grow nutes and are light green...they just a bit more than 1/3 of the nutes or a bit less than half to perform well I guess!
> I even have the very end of the leaves burned on some under cob...I will have to adjust that for the next grow and take more care of the doses since I will reuse my soil and add new amendments to it!
> CU


----------



## cannakis (Dec 9, 2015)

hyroot said:


>


Hahaha this guy is such a dork but I love him! Great information. Hahaha not as big as a dork as that custom grow 420 Joey guy on YouTube hahaha that guy really kills me!

But this guy does give good information I'll have to take a watch thanks hyroot


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## hyroot (Dec 12, 2015)

I was told about another place to get worms from and worm castings and compost. Recommended by Coots. It's better than worm power and uncle jims and build a soil

http://www.northwestredworms.com


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## hyroot (Dec 13, 2015)

My current mix is 

Peat, pumice , vc

Crab meal
Neem cake
Karanja cake
Fish bone meal
Kelp meal 
Oyster shell flour
Basalt rock dust

But want do any of you think about adding fish meal?


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## Joedank (Dec 13, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I was told about another place to get worms from and worm castings and compost. Recommended by Coots. It's better than worm power and uncle jims and build a soil
> 
> http://www.northwestredworms.com


i see no testing from a lab . is there one ?
i use worm power cuz its tested ...lol...
i also only use fishmeal in place of fishbone and drop a little of the crabmeal


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## littlejacob (Dec 13, 2015)

Bonjour
Is it possible for me to make my own oyster shell flour...people eat a lot of at the.end of the year! So I will have many shells...and crabs too!
Is shrimps good too?
Mussel!
Have a great day ★


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## dcasper75 (Dec 13, 2015)

hey everyone long time lurker been reading non stop for who knows how long know I've never grown organic but I've been wanting to switch over to organics and get away from commercial nutes hopefully I've come up with a decent mix I've looked over so many different recipes nd kinda mixed a couple to come up with what I got if yall could leave feedback on your guys opinons on if my ratios are rite id greatly appreciate it

19cf @3.8 cf per bag 5bags for 19cf 142.5gallons befor ammendments

per cu ft total for 19cf base

Fish meal 2cups 38cups

fish bone meal 2 cup 38cups

shrip/crab meal 1/2cup 9.5cups

alfalfa meal 1/2cup 9.5cups

flax seed meal 1/2cup 9.5cups

neem seed meal 1/2cup 9.5cups

kelp meal 1cup 19cups

oyster shell flour 1/2cup 9.5cups

gypsum 1/2cup 9.5cups

dolomite lime 1/2cup 9.5cups

azomite 1/3cup 6.55cups

glacial rock dust 1/3cup 6.55cups

soft rock phosphate 1/3cup 6.55cups

humates 1tsp 2/5th cup

green sand 1/2cup 9.5cups

k mag 1cup 19cups

earth worm castings 1/2cu ft 9cu ft

pro mix 3.8cuft per bag 6 bags 19 cu ft +3.8 for cutting it down for younger plants

I feel as though this is off some how I've read thru numerous mixes nd this is what I came up with any help is greatly appreciated


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

Joedank said:


> i see no testing from a lab . is there one ?
> i use worm power cuz its tested ...lol...
> i also only use fishmeal in place of fishbone and drop a little of the crabmeal



That's just what coots recommended. He said the worms are larger and healthier than uncle jims. The he said the top tier vermicompost is really good. 

I know worm power has gotten awards and works withe cornell university and speaks all over. Lab tests will vary every single batch. . Worm power is in new York too. They're cheaper than buying it rebranded from build a soil. Both with shipping is a lot for castings. Northwest is a cheaper. Ima try it next week. If it sucks then I know. I can actually get a sample tested locally for fairly cheap. I might even do that. I'm definitely ordering more worms and from northwest. 

The fish meal I was thinking. In another thread I talked about how I tried synthetics on 2 plants for more yield using Neptune's fish fertz. Just because my buddy gets huge yields with it. I didn't like the quality. I want to try a true organic alternative to that recipe. As far as I can find the only thing harmful in neptunes is phosphoric acid. I'm only going to try fish meal on one plant. And see.


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## Joedank (Dec 14, 2015)

hyroot said:


> That's just what coots recommended. He said the worms are larger and healthier than uncle jims. The he said the top tier vermicompost is really good.
> 
> I know worm power has gotten awards and works withe cornell university and speaks all over. Lab tests will vary every single batch. . Worm power is in new York too. They're cheaper than buying it rebranded from build a soil. Both with shipping is a lot for castings. Northwest is a cheaper. Ima try it next week. If it sucks then I know. I can actually get a sample tested locally for fairly cheap. I might even do that. I'm definitely ordering more worms and from northwest.
> 
> The fish meal I was thinking. In another thread I talked about how I tried synthetics on 2 plants for more yield using Neptune's fish fertz. Just because my buddy gets huge yields with it. I didn't like the quality. I want to try a true organic alternative to that recipe. As far as I can find the only thing harmful in neptunes is phosphoric acid. I'm only going to try fish meal on one plant. And see.


this is why i like your style
is the phosphoric acid to stop the fermentation ?


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

Joedank said:


> this is why i like your style
> is the phosphoric acid to stop the fermentation ?


Its used as a preservative to keep everything stable. Including ph.


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## apbx720 (Dec 14, 2015)

Does anyone know if they make a product that's a combination of these herbs for an herbal tea? I dnt have the ability or time to collect all these dif herbs one by one. Does such a product exist?


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

apbx720 said:


> Does anyone know if they make a product that's a combination of these herbs for an herbal tea? I dnt have the ability or time to collect all these dif herbs one by one. Does such a product exist?



What herbs?


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

dcasper75 said:


> hey everyone long time lurker been reading non stop for who knows how long know I've never grown organic but I've been wanting to switch over to organics and get away from commercial nutes hopefully I've come up with a decent mix I've looked over so many different recipes nd kinda mixed a couple to come up with what I got if yall could leave feedback on your guys opinons on if my ratios are rite id greatly appreciate it
> 
> 19cf @3.8 cf per bag 5bags for 19cf 142.5gallons befor ammendments
> 
> ...



That's some redundant over kill . Drop k mag, soft rock phosphate, green sand, humates. azomite, dolomite lime, and maybe alfalfa. I used to use alfalfa in my mix but I don't anymore. I like the results. More. I just use it in teas during veg.


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## greasemonkeymann (Dec 14, 2015)

hyroot said:


> My current mix is
> 
> Peat, pumice , vc
> 
> ...


Fish meal is some good stuff man, has a similar availability as the alfalfa meal, and you mentioned you dropped the alfalfa from your mix, it may need that extra kick from the nitrogen. Even though you have it in other sources, the fish meal tends to keep em green longer.
I love fish meal, I use it in my compost pile ever winter... in fact I got three lbs of it this last weekend to match with my 8 bigass bags of leaves
Along with eight other nutrients... I had a leak in my vege room this last storm and it filled up my bucket that I had allll my nutrients in...
talk about smelly...
had to bury that bastard

even still I spent less than 50 bucks on nutrients that will last the next three yrs or more


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## dcasper75 (Dec 14, 2015)

hyroot said:


> That's some redundant over kill . Drop k mag, soft rock phosphate, green sand, humates. azomite, dolomite lime, and maybe alfalfa. I used to use alfalfa in my mix but I don't anymore. I like the results. More. I just use it in teas during veg.



awesome I really appreciate your response it means a lot do u think my ratios are rite the 1/2cups nd wat not per cu ft all the way thru to keep everything good ?
so ive gone thru nd made some changes if u give me the thumbs up iamma get on pickin up everything I need asap heres the new mix
per cubic ft 
Fish meal 2cups
fish bone meal 2cups
shrip/crab meal 1/2 1/2cup 
neem seed meal 1/2cup 
kelp meal 1cup
oyster shell flour 2/2 
glacial rock dust 1/3cup


earth worm castings

equal parts or 2 to 1 on ewc nd peat

pro mix /sunshine organic peat


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

dcasper75 said:


> awesome I really appreciate your response it means a lot do u think my ratios are rite the 1/2cups nd wat not per cu ft all the way thru to keep everything good ?
> so ive gone thru nd made some changes if u give me the thumbs up iamma get on pickin up everything I need asap heres the new mix
> per cubic ft
> Fish meal 2cups
> ...



Per cu ft. I do 1/2 cup or each and 1/4 cup for neem and karanja. 2-3 cups of rock dust and 1 cup of oyster shell flour.


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

I just had this troll arguing with me so tough in the probiotic farmers alliance group on facebook. He was defending omri and kept telling me I was wrong about how everything is made. I looked at his profile and he was so full of it. He even said he was one chemistry class away from being a certified pest control advisor. They don't have chemistry classes


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## dcasper75 (Dec 14, 2015)

hyroot said:


> I just had this troll arguing with me so tough in the probiotic farmers alliance group on facebook. He was defending omri and kept telling me I was wrong about how everything is made. I looked at his profile and he was so full of it. He even said he was one chemistry class away from being a certified pest control advisor. They don't have chemistry classes


you not a fan of OMRI ? are they bs not as organic as they claim just slaps there logo on anythining if the company is willing to pay for it ?


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

dcasper75 said:


> you not a fan of OMRI ? are they bs not as organic as they claim just slaps there logo on anythining if the company is willing to pay for it ?



Not a fan they're b.s.. so many so called organic nutes with chems in them are omri listed.


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## dcasper75 (Dec 14, 2015)

wow i really appreciate that tid bit of info someone told me to steer away from the pro mix sice it has chem ferts in it nd to lok for a organic omri listed peat now iam wondering about that stuff lol


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## littlejacob (Dec 14, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Per cu ft. I do 1/2 cup or each and 1/4 cup for neem and karanja. 2-3 cups of rock dust and 1 cup of oyster shell flour.


Bonjour
If I crush oyster shell myself will it do the job...it must me very thin...micronised?
How can I do that?
May I add other shells?
Have a nice day !


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> If I crush oyster shell myself will it do the job...it must me very thin...micronised?
> How can I do that?
> May I add other shells?
> Have a nice day !



Use a mortar and pestle to pulverize them. You can use shrimp shell meal and lobster shell meal too.


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## BigDoobie (Dec 14, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> If I crush oyster shell myself will it do the job...it must me very thin...micronised?
> How can I do that?
> May I add other shells?
> Have a nice day !


You can put it in a bag and hammer it to death. Crushed oyster shell isn't the same as oyster shell flour.


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## littlejacob (Dec 15, 2015)

Bonjour
What do I have to do to transform it in flour?
Use(the metal tool they use in cartoon to ecape from jail!!! Sorry! Lol!)?
Or in my uncle workshop he have sand paper machine with a very large band!?
My brother have a friend who work with stone...granit/marbre and many else...he must have a machine who transform stone in dust!
So which one is the good solution?
CU


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## littlejacob (Dec 15, 2015)

@hyroot I can't believe I have find karanja and neem cake in France...on an organic site...not too expensive...it is cool!
When you say rock dust...what kind of rock?
Thanks


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> @hyroot I can't believe I have find karanja and neem cake in France...on an organic site...not too expensive...it is cool!
> When you say rock dust...what kind of rock?
> Thanks



I like basalt rock dust the most.


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## littlejacob (Dec 16, 2015)

Bonjour
I can source it too...pretty cool!
I am going to try to copy your mix...!
I thought it would be more difficult! 
CU


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## snooplover5 (Dec 17, 2015)

littlejacob said:


> @hyroot I can't believe I have find karanja and neem cake in France...on an organic site...not too expensive...it is cool!
> When you say rock dust...what kind of rock?
> Thanks


Hello Littlejacob,

You're a better Googler than I am, I've been looking for this too in our good old French land. But I have been more than unsuccessful.
Do you order it online or from a local shop? If online, can you share the address 

Cheers !


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## ShLUbY (Dec 17, 2015)

got a question for recycling the soil. about how much compost/ewc do you guys like to add when busting up the containers for recycle/composting session before reuse??


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> got a question for recycling the soil. about how much compost/ewc do you guys like to add when busting up the containers for recycle/composting session before reuse??



Same as a soil mix. 33%. Usually replant in same pot and topdress a 2 inch layer of ewc/ compost - vermicompost


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## ShLUbY (Dec 17, 2015)

hyroot said:


> Same as a soil mix. 33%. Usually replant in same pot and topdress a 2 inch layer of ewc/ compost - vermicompost


wow alright cool, i was thinking about 15-20% so i'm glad i asked. just curious but have you tried to go lighter or do you find the microbes are devouring the compost pretty well through?


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> wow alright cool, i was thinking about 15-20% so i'm glad i asked. just curious but have you tried to go lighter or do you find the microbes are devouring the compost pretty well through?



I've done all different ratios. Under published papers from universities that say around 30% will yield best results. They were right. After seeing so myself and others on here. 

Yes microbes go nuts.


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## Mary's Confidant (Dec 17, 2015)

I saw this stuff and wondered what everyone thought of andesite? Price seems inline with what I've seen of other rock dusts.

http://www.greengenerations.com/cl-andesite-order-page.html


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## ShLUbY (Dec 18, 2015)

ok, to any of you who deal with powdery mildew, let me lend you some advice on how to effectively treat the fungus in an organic manner..... with water! This is for when you are past the point of being able to treat with any other organic method of spray, which is after week 2.5-3 of flower. if your treatments don't do the trick all the way through flower, do not fear.

step one, remove infected plant(s) from the room.

step two, give your plant a shower with distilled water from some kind of sprayer; this is to give a little water pressure but not blasting the plant. shower in order from head to toe, to wash away the spores off of the leaf surfaces. and really 

a couple things to note about powdery mildew: one is that it is an airborne spore and does not grow hyphae in the soil. so the best method of treatment is to wash the spores away. water prevents the vast majority of them from becoming airborne. Another is that powdery mildew thrives in a dry environment, this allows the spores to become airborne much easier and let me tell you, humidity has got nothing to do with it. i'm talking dry leaf surfaces where they can land in low wind zones, develop, and start feeding from the plant.

you can repeat this treatment with no worries!!!!!!!!! if you see some more mildew try and develop, just give them another shower. when you stop the production of spores, which might take some because of spores in the room, you will end the life cycle of the fungus. i'm also treating the air with ozone at night to kill spores in the air. just a 10 min blast with circulating fans running and then i turn the exhaust back on.

maybe i'm arriving late to the party with this info, but nowhere did i see anyone mention doing this. this was my own desperation to try and save these plants to get them to a mature harvest. i was getting worried for my black domina, but i no longer fear a mildew take over. i'll just give them a shower. they are extremely happy with me right now lol. i wish i would have thought of this for the cheese plants!!


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## hyroot (Dec 18, 2015)

Any thoughts on black gold castings yeah yeah store bought. But I can get 1 cu ft locally for $15 and a bag of Bu's blend compost for $12. I think that's 1.5 cu ft.


I've never even used anything from black gold. I did get a free lighter and drink cozy from their booth at maxum yield expo.


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## Mary's Confidant (Dec 18, 2015)

st0wandgrow said:


> Made some organic, marijuana infused pickled carrots.
> 
> View attachment 3336368 View attachment 3336369


Stowandgrow, what was your method of making these pickled carrots? Sounds delicious!

Does anyone have a good suggestion on cookbooks for things like that? Pickled foods, infused candies, etc? I'm new to all of that and I'd like to try a few different methods if possible.


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## st0wandgrow (Dec 18, 2015)

Mary's Confidant said:


> Stowandgrow, what was your method of making these pickled carrots? Sounds delicious!
> 
> Does anyone have a good suggestion on cookbooks for things like that? Pickled foods, infused candies, etc? I'm new to all of that and I'd like to try a few different methods if possible.


Hi Mary. This was an experiment of sorts. Due to the hydrophobic nature of cannabinoids I wasn't sure how this would turn out. All I did was add a teaspoon of dry hash, along with apx 1/2 cup of trim (per quart jar, both activated by heating in the oven for 30 minutes at 250) to my brine, and I let it sit for 2 months shaking the shit out of the jar periodically. To my surprise it turned out great! Very potent. I'm not sure how much if any was absorbed by the carrots, but the brine was certainly enough to get you wasted! I'm thinking some other type of pickle using an oil base would be better, but this worked great.


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## m4s73r (Dec 18, 2015)

Just wanted to stop in here again. Ive been in and out of this thread for months reading it a bit at a time. I have made the change from Hempys to 20g No tills from things i have gotten from this thread. So my thanks to the contributors. I have started a thread over on the vert forum.


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## Kind Sir (Dec 19, 2015)

Hey guys, Im about to wet my soil before it cycles (cooks.) I want to wet it with ewc/molasses/possibly compost, but I only have a small 45gallon per hour pump. I did a hald gal last time and it didnt foam up crazy like ive seen.

Would it be possible to make a slighty stronger tea in a quarter gallon jug? What should I do?
@greasemonkeymann @DonTesla


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## DonPetro (Dec 19, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Hey guys, Im about to wet my soil before it cycles (cooks.) I want to wet it with ewc/molasses/possibly compost, but I only have a small 45gallon per hour pump. I did a hald gal last time and it didnt foam up crazy like ive seen.
> 
> Would it be possible to make a slighty stronger tea in a quarter gallon jug? What should I do?
> @greasemonkeymann @DonTesla


You're only looking to add microbes that will kick start the "cooking" process. Don't think of your teas in terms of strength. And yes its possible. A tsp of bsm and a 1/4 cup ewc should produce loads of microbeasties.


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## Kind Sir (Dec 19, 2015)

DonPetro said:


> You're only looking to add microbes that will kick start the "cooking" process. Don't think of your teas in terms of strength. And yes its possible. A tsp of bsm and a 1/4 cup ewc should produce loads of microbeasties.


Thanks for the info man, I only asked the strength question because Im worried about using too big of a container for my pump and read from tim wilson that you will have "less dense" microbes when using concentrated teas and diluting them before using. 

I only have an air stone, ldont have brewer made.


----------



## ShLUbY (Dec 20, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Thanks for the info man, I only asked the strength question because Im worried about using too big of a container for my pump and read from tim wilson that you will have "less dense" microbes when using concentrated teas and diluting them before using.
> 
> I only have an air stone, ldont have brewer made.


i dont use a brewer, i use air stones.... but i have a pump that produces some nice bubbles for 2 stones! maybe you could go grab a slightly bigger pump? like this one...

http://www.amazon.com/Commercial-20watts-120volt-Hydroponics-Aquarium/dp/B00BVLBNB2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1450625104&sr=8-1&keywords=o2+pump


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## AllDayToker (Dec 20, 2015)

Yeah I use a similar pump that shluby posted. Works great. I got two lines in my teas and another line bubbling fresh clean water. A ton of water movement. Had to get lids for my buckets.

My problem is the air stones for my teas get clogged up after a few weeks of use and tired of buying them.

I saw steel had a cool tea brewing setup that doesn't use airstones. I want to build one but having gotten around to it yet.


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## ShLUbY (Dec 20, 2015)

AllDayToker said:


> Yeah I use a similar pump that shluby posted. Works great. I got two lines in my teas and another line bubbling fresh clean water. A ton of water movement. Had to get lids for my buckets.
> 
> My problem is the air stones for my teas get clogged up after a few weeks of use and tired of buying them.
> 
> I saw steel had a cool tea brewing setup that doesn't use airstones. I want to build one but having gotten around to it yet.


yeah the air stones do get dirty but they clean up nice with a hard plastic bristle brush and some hot water. i haven't had to replace any yet.... yet lol


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## DonBrennon (Dec 20, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah the air stones do get dirty but they clean up nice with a hard plastic bristle brush and some hot water. i haven't had to replace any yet.... yet lol


Hahahaha, I've literally just been doing this now in my bathroom, HOT water, bit of soap, good scrub.pmsl. I also bubble air through them in as hot water as i can get (DO NOT ADD SOAP). Liquid oxygen or whatever its called is also good for this, but i don't buy anything like that anymore.
You and I seem to have a lot in common ShLUbY, I'm on my 2nd full run in ROLS, I was going no till from the start, but felt that i'd packed my soil down too much to start off with so busted it up a re-amended after the first run (I was right after refilling 8 20G root pouches I still had like 35G of soil left) It's no till with topdressing and a shed load of diverse soil life for me from now on.

You might like these........ Blueberry - Dutch Passion.............sweeeeeeeeeet aromas...................24 days into flower


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## littlejacob (Dec 20, 2015)

Bonjour
I plan on reuse my soil too...I just want to topdress it...what do you use?
@hyroot may I top dress with karanja and neem cake plus basalt in powder and kelp?and how much per 3gl?
I will skip soon to root pouch or anything bigger (I only have 4.5 high in my box so no tall pot...and I guess 25gl for 5/6 plants is enough!??
CU


----------



## ShLUbY (Dec 20, 2015)

DonBrennon said:


> Hahahaha, I've literally just been doing this now in my bathroom, HOT water, bit of soap, good scrub.pmsl. I also bubble air through them in as hot water as i can get (DO NOT ADD SOAP). Liquid oxygen or whatever its called is also good for this, but i don't buy anything like that anymore.
> You and I seem to have a lot in common ShLUbY, I'm on my 2nd full run in ROLS, I was going no till from the start, but felt that i'd packed my soil down too much to start off with so busted it up a re-amended after the first run (I was right after refilling 8 20G root pouches I still had like 35G of soil left) It's no till with topdressing and a shed load of diverse soil life for me from now on.
> 
> You might like these........ Blueberry - Dutch Passion.............sweeeeeeeeeet aromas...................24 days into flower
> ...



doooooooooooood i used to have that strain. omfg it looks just like it. holy fuckstick. how i wish i could get it back. people ask me about it all the time, it's been years since i had it. Looks beautiful my friend. Nice freakin job.


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## DonBrennon (Dec 21, 2015)

I've just found this - http://www.soilhealth.com/soils-are-alive/ , I've only had a quick glance at it and I'm sure some of you are already aware of it, but it looks like awesome info to me and I for one wish I'd found it earlier


----------



## Kind Sir (Dec 23, 2015)

Hey guys, Im looking at different myco brands and am curious what you guys use? I was looking at xtreme gardening mykos, they even have a sample kit to try it first. Opinions?


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## ShLUbY (Dec 23, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Hey guys, Im looking at different myco brands and am curious what you guys use? I was looking at xtreme gardening mykos, they even have a sample kit to try it first. Opinions?


which ever one has the most diverse profile of species is the one i would go with, depending on cost. but research the species the more expensive one has and see if it's worth the extra money. I've been using plant success for a while. just used the roots organics one cause the grow store was giving them out. they're all very similar, some just have more/different species of fungi spores


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## 4ftRoots (Dec 23, 2015)

Kind Sir said:


> Hey guys, Im looking at different myco brands and am curious what you guys use? I was looking at xtreme gardening mykos, they even have a sample kit to try it first. Opinions?


I would look at the website fungi.com under fungi for gardens. I would get both the myco for veggies and the myco soluble. The myco for veggies is only mycorrhizae and the myco soluble is myco and other fungi and beneficials. I use the soluable to keep the good microbes around and the veggie when I translant to my 35 gals.


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## DonBrennon (Dec 27, 2015)

http://metameta.nl/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Biocharculture-Book_20_8_2014_finalSF.pdf

Quality free book about biochar..............some interesting growing techniques in there too.


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## GreenSanta (Dec 28, 2015)

If you are having issues making a good ACT, know that patience is a good substitute. I have not used ACTs forever now and my soil is getting better. ACTs are not necessary when using high quality compost in your soil mix.


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## nvhak49 (Dec 28, 2015)

This is magnesium defcentcey correct? What's a good to help with it, I know Epsom salt works well but I've read mixed things about putting into ROLS I don't wanna kill off my microbes. I could use it as a foliar spray tho?


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## nvhak49 (Dec 28, 2015)

This is magnesium defcentcey correct? What's a good way to fix this, I've read mixed things about using Epsom salts in living soils and I don't want to kill off my microbes could I use it a foliar spray and it wouldn't do any harm or is there better stuff?


----------



## Kind Sir (Dec 29, 2015)

I was looking to buy a few items, opinions?

Bioag fulpower - was told this is very beneficial when using SST/Enzymes?
Tm7 
Durolux 4ft 8bulb T5HO - Mixture of bulbs


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## ShLUbY (Dec 29, 2015)

yes foliar is best for mg def. epsom salts and kelp should help you out.


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## nvhak49 (Dec 29, 2015)

ShLUbY said:


> yes foliar is best for mg def. epsom salts and kelp should help you out.


I sprayed them Epsom salt yesterday, I'll probably spray them again with some kelp tea tomorrow or the next day, I wanna get my GG#4 mother back to good health.
Thanks @ShLUbY


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## hyroot (Dec 30, 2015)

Anyone else dump their ash tray into their bins or soil mixes. I have for a while. I don't know why I never thought to bring it up. It's not complete ash. But it's only from flowers I've grown. Nothing else. Whether it's ash , plant material or some sort of char. 

I just try to recycle or find another use for everything. 


 


I'm bored obviously lol


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## GreenSanta (Dec 30, 2015)

lol hyroot, anything from the grow room can be recycled in ROLS, floor sweep = mulch lol

I am about to start a true ROLS container, or 2, I am looking to build something like a raised bed that would be 2'x2'x16" on wheels. Anyone has any reference or DIY tutorial for the best cheapest options?

Thanks.


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## Kind Sir (Jan 1, 2016)

I mixed my soil together, its been 6 days and it has a decent amount of (I believe its mycellium?) growing on it. I didnt add my lava rock yet, im going to run it over today and add it. Is it ok to mix everything up? I only made 1CuFt so it dries out quickly even with a top on, Ive been adding water without mixing it.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 3, 2016)

Rols Blueberry 39 days since flip, coming on nice, just starting to notice a bit of fade in the fan leaves

     +


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## DonPetro (Jan 3, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Rols Blueberry 39 days since flip, coming on nice, just starting to notice a bit of fade in the fan leaves
> 
> View attachment 3577381 View attachment 3577382 View attachment 3577383 View attachment 3577384 View attachment 3577387 +


Looking killer, Don!


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## Mary's Confidant (Jan 6, 2016)

I just purchased all of the ingredients to attempt ROLS. 

I purchased:


3.8 CF or ProMix HP
Azomite
Crab Meal
Kelp meal
Diatomaceous earth
Root Naturally Sea-90 Ocean Mineral Organic Fertilizer

Neem Seed meal
1 cu. ft. of growstone
multiple coir bricks
15 lbs of worm casting
mushroom compost
composted manure

I've read through a lot of the thread but still uncertain what a good starting mix should entail. Anyone want to take a shot at relative amounts to mix together?


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## GreenSanta (Jan 7, 2016)

sorry why DE? kinda useless on pest when its wet and if its dry it becomes dangerous for your lungs


----------



## SahTiva (Jan 7, 2016)

My first run at soil web gardening: 
Needless to say I wont be going back.


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 7, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> If you are having issues making a good ACT, know that patience is a good substitute. I have not used ACTs forever now and my soil is getting better. ACTs are not necessary when using high quality compost in your soil mix.


I second this motion! Grow the soil not the plants! I have never been happier, two years or more building and cycling my soil. COMPOSTING. YeEAaH BaBy!


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 7, 2016)

Yields are getting ridiculously big. ROLS ftw. Hit just over a gram per watt with this girl last run. She has a way to go still but I think we will do better this time around. I mean look at the bag size lmfao... Just keep building the soil... composting everything possible... and keeping the worms happy!


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## Mary's Confidant (Jan 7, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> sorry why DE? kinda useless on pest when its wet and if its dry it becomes dangerous for your lungs


If you are asking me, I though many people were suggesting to add it to the soil mix or did I misread something? Either way, does anyone have suggestions or should I mix the coir and peat, then do the typical 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 before addending with the supplements. I also have bone and blood meal, found them on sale at a local store.


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## nvhak49 (Jan 7, 2016)

This my first attempt at ROLS and scrog and I'm loving them both. I've never grow such healthy plants before and it's by far the easiest way to grow I can't wait to see what I can yields and the quality of them. I'll get some better pictures under normal lights soon.


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## nvhak49 (Jan 7, 2016)

Question for the long time ROLS folks, would General organics calmag kill off microbes or be bad for the living soil in anyway, I haven't bought any and don't really want too, but it would be nice to fix cal mag def quickly unless there's better stuff. I ask cuz a guy in a different thread was using it in his ROLS.


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## GreenSanta (Jan 7, 2016)

nvhak49 said:


> Question for the long time ROLS folks, would General organics calmag kill off microbes or be bad for the living soil in anyway, I haven't bought any and don't really want too, but it would be nice to fix cal mag def quickly unless there's better stuff. I ask cuz a guy in a different thread was using it in his ROLS.


Due to lack of time to source proper amendments, I have been using it sporadically in week 2 to 5-6 of flower depending on strain, and or what the plants look like. Having the proper ratio of available calcium to magnesium in the soil helps stabilize the ph and make all other nutrients available.

I prefer not to use it, but for the time being, it makes sense for me. I use at half dosage or less, this little amount of synthetic should not affect microbes population. As far I know, there isnt really an cal-mag organic equivalent that can be use for ''quick fix''

ultimately you want to make sure to have the proper amendments in your soil to break down like gypsum, lime ... and then you should never have to use synthetic cal-mag.

I have been debating ''to use'' or ''not to use'' cal-mag and only broke down again recently after over a year of not using it. When I get around to mix soil for a big ROLS pot I will address the situation, but Id appreciate more input on the topic and I welcome your question nvhak49!


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## nvhak49 (Jan 8, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> Due to lack of time to source proper amendments, I have been using it sporadically in week 2 to 5-6 of flower depending on strain, and or what the plants look like. Having the proper ratio of available calcium to magnesium in the soil helps stabilize the ph and make all other nutrients available.
> 
> I prefer not to use it, but for the time being, it makes sense for me. I use at half dosage or less, this little amount of synthetic should not affect microbes population. As far I know, there isnt really an cal-mag organic equivalent that can be use for ''quick fix''
> 
> ...


Thanks for your answer too man, it makes sense. I'll try my hardest to not have to buy it with Epsom salts and kelp meal and top dress with some oyster flower and gypsum to help balance the soil pH cuz I'm sure that's the problem I'm having. Cuz there should be enough mag in the soil since I bought a pre mix kit of nutes from buildasoil and left it cool for 30 days minimum


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## GreenSanta (Jan 8, 2016)

when in doubts, I just ride it out, with straight water until harvest. the weed always comes out stellar anyway, in fact my plants that look like trash the most at harvest usually smoke the nicest. I might just be losing a bit on yield but I save on time and energy spent thinking about it. The life cycle of the plant is so short, once in flower, if you see a problem, its already too late to fix imo. I never ph but before you do anything else than water you might want to look at the ph.


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## Mad Hamish (Jan 8, 2016)

CalMag is no danger in ROLS. It will not kill off your micro herd. However it will be a mobile amendment as far ad your soil is concerned meaning if you recycle soil into a natural environment your CalMag will leech out the soil and eventually hit your water table which from an environmental point of view is exactly what we are working against.

All votes for amending properly but if your ladies are in need GIVE THEM WHAT THEY NEED. 

I would simply encourage you to not recycle the soil into a system that allows runoff onto natural ground. But this has nothing to do with the effect on your plants.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 10, 2016)

Anyone seen any adverse effects from using solely spring water? Now that it's winter in the Midwest I don't source my water from nature and my local grocery store sells 2.5 gallons of spring water (says it only has 2% ca) cheaper than their distilled and r/o, odd I know. My only thought is that in the long run I could run into a toxicity as my mix is in no way short on calcium. It's actually a bit hotter than I wanted originally but oh well.

Also, it's been long time since I've dropped in. It's nice to "see" everyone again!


----------



## Rrog (Jan 10, 2016)

I like RO because I'm concerned about mineral buildup. Ca and Mg. Soil has plenty. Amendments have plenty. 

If recycling / no-till that's a concern IMHO. 

Also, if using drip lines (blumats) they clog. RO keeps it clean.


----------



## kkt3 (Jan 10, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Any thoughts on black gold castings yeah yeah store bought. But I can get 1 cu ft locally for $15 and a bag of Bu's blend compost for $12. I think that's 1.5 cu ft.
> 
> 
> I've never even used anything from black gold. I did get a free lighter and drink cozy from their booth at maxum yield expo.


Hyroot I use black gold products all the time. They do the job very well!!


----------



## DonBrennon (Jan 10, 2016)

Just been re-potting my main Blueberry mother and 3 possible future mothers, they're looking a little rough at the mo, cos they produced around 40 cuttings between them 8 days ago
   
Back row L-R, Greenhouse seeds Trainwreck, Barneys farm Critical kush and Humbolt seeds Purple Trainwreck. Think I'm gona run 2 of each for the next run in my main tent, bored of my monoculture.

Here's the cuts, done using fresh aloe vera, I'm expecting the first roots within the next few days(they're not all for me).
   

These are some experimental Bubblegum x Blueberry seeds, which were caused by a rogue male flower going undetected in a friends flowering room, both were from my cuttings so I consider them to be my cross(both were real stinky and good producers too, so the outcome should be interesting) pmsl
  
They were last topped around a week ago and are recovering nicely, I'm not sure whether to just let them go another week give em a good clean up and flip them, or top them again to get 16 tops each which would prob add anothor 2 week veg time


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## DonBrennon (Jan 11, 2016)

What a difference a day makes..................oh, and the AACT I gave them on sunday. I think I may have been a little heavy with the alfalfa on re-amend and didn't cook the soil out long enough. Got yellow tips on the leaves showing nute burn, but I think they're getting over it now. I think the one front left is a male, it's just so different from the others.


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## Mohican (Jan 11, 2016)

I would avoid alfalfa. To many weird things in it.

Seaweed is a much better alternative.


----------



## DonBrennon (Jan 11, 2016)

Mohican said:


> I would avoid alfalfa. To many weird things in it.
> 
> Seaweed is a much better alternative.


Do you not use it at all? or just in teas?

So much conflicting advise, although it is all appreciated, what are the weird things in it?


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## DonBrennon (Jan 11, 2016)

It's one of the few amendments which are cheap and easily accessible to me.


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## Rrog (Jan 11, 2016)

I'm a fan of local alfalfa. I'm trying to stay with local MI ingredients


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## hyroot (Jan 11, 2016)

I only use alfalfa in nutrient teas during veg. It has triactinol in it, which promotes foliage growth. I don't use it in soil mixes or during flower anymore for that reason. You end up with very leafy plants.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 11, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I like RO because I'm concerned about mineral buildup. Ca and Mg. Soil has plenty. Amendments have plenty.
> 
> If recycling / no-till that's a concern IMHO.
> 
> Also, if using drip lines (blumats) they clog. RO keeps it clean.


Same sort of thinking I've been having, thanks for the input!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 13, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I only use alfalfa in nutrient teas during veg. It has triactinol in it, which promotes foliage growth. I don't use it in soil mixes or during flower anymore for that reason. You end up with very leafy plants.


I've got a plant that's been throwing out branches with 3 and 4 nodes, do you think an alfalfa heavy mix could cause this?


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## DonBrennon (Jan 13, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I've got a plant that's been throwing out branches with 3 and 4 nodes, do you think an alfalfa heavy mix could cause this?


I had a bubblegum plant do this last run, it ended up with polypoid buds which were big and beautiful, although a little odd to look at and smelled fantastic, but the smoke ain't great by a long shot. I'm not absolutely sure, but I think it was caused by nute burn/nitrogen toxicity in the early growth stage. It's also happened to a mate of mine, but his also hermed and pollinted most of his tent, I think his was compounded by environmental issues as well though.


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## Mohican (Jan 13, 2016)

Yes. Alfalfa causes all kinds of weird side effects.

Feeding monkeys alfalfa sprouts for only two weeks gave them autoimmune diseases (healthy my ass).

Farmers won't feed pregnant cows alfalfa because it causes birth defects.


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## elkamino (Jan 13, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I only use alfalfa in nutrient teas during veg. It has triactinol in it, which promotes foliage growth. I don't use it in soil mixes or during flower anymore for that reason. You end up with very leafy plants.


Wow, I'm experiencing that right now, didn't know what it was and I believe you ID'd my problem. THANK YOU. 

Anyone know how long-lasting Triacontanol is in soil? I run 5- or 7-gal pots of a ROLS very similar to Coots. Last remix included alfalfa meal for the first time, 1c per CF, I believe.

Since they've been in the newly ammended soil I've noticed the JTRs are more leafy than on previous runs. Also the leaves are SMALLER, and don't like that! I thought it was just a result of heavy LSTing- more budsites/leaves on same root might mean smaller leaves? But now I wonder if its the alfalfa?

The girls have been in the 7 gals for a week and I'm just about to flip to 12-12. Think I should stall and give the Triacontanol time to deplete before I enter flower? Or proceed on schedule? This is a personal grow and no rush, so I have flexibility in timing if needed.


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## nvhak49 (Jan 13, 2016)

Has anyone use mung beans for a SST during flower it has lots of good flowering nutes and lots of other minerals?


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## Mary's Confidant (Jan 15, 2016)

Mary's Confidant said:


> I just purchased all of the ingredients to attempt ROLS.
> 
> I purchased:
> 
> ...


Just reposting this to see if anyone would take a stab at a good mix with the ingredients above?


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## Kind Sir (Jan 15, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I only use alfalfa in nutrient teas during veg. It has triactinol in it, which promotes foliage growth. I don't use it in soil mixes or during flower anymore for that reason. You end up with very leafy plants.


Thats a good thought I didnt realize that. Its hard to use everyones info, until you find out for yourself IMO. I can have this compost, and rice hull potting soil shipped super cheap. Opinions on the leaf compost?

http://www.hsugrowingsupply.com/compost-soils/leaf-compost


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## Kind Sir (Jan 15, 2016)

Mary's Confidant said:


> Just reposting this to see if anyone would take a stab at a good mix with the ingredients above?


Get your neem seed from neemresource.com alot of ppl do here. 

Start a worm bin. @greaseymonkeyman you got a moment for this cool cat?


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 15, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Anyone know how long-lasting Triacontanol is in soil?


 If anyone could answer this that would be awesome, it peaked my curiosity as well.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 15, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If anyone could answer this that would be awesome, it peaked my curiosity as well.


I'm no expert, but I'd imagine it largely depends how much you put in and how quickly it gets consumed? Size of plant, environment etc.........


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## DonBrennon (Jan 15, 2016)

I'm thinking of opening an organics hydro store pmsl.................all courtesy of http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/


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## DonBrennon (Jan 15, 2016)

Oh..... and here's some ROLS bud porn

         

Blueberry - Dutch passion


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 15, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I'm no expert, but I'd imagine it largely depends how much you put in and how quickly it gets consumed? Size of plant, environment etc.........


Very true, in hindsight I see how vague of a question that is.. I guess the question would be better asked as a multitude of different ones and to someone with some nursery experience and or a degree in soil science lol. Any takers? I've just now over the last couple months started really diving into soil science myself (how pH is actually determined blew my gord a bit at first, I thought it was simple hehe).


----------



## DonBrennon (Jan 15, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Very true, in hindsight I see how vague of a question that is.. I guess the question would be better asked as a multitude of different ones and to someone with some nursery experience and or a degree in soil science lol. Any takers? I've just now over the last couple months started really diving into soil science myself (how pH is actually determined blew my gord a bit at first, I thought it was simple hehe).


When you start reading into it you realize nothing is simple in soil science and I suppose it's just not had the same funding/interest as other sciences(except for profitable/chemical biased purposes). When you try to research this type of stuff, you find obscure one off papers that you either can't fully access or don't quite answer your questions. Nature has her way of doing things which we'll prob never understand, I'm learning it's better for us to KISS and let her do the work, lol.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 15, 2016)

Because I feel it should be a staple in everyones garden; I'm posting a reminder about Aloe Vera. If this is new to you, you should really read the beginning of threads. If it's not, my appologies for the umpteenth post about this amazing plant.
I Cloned a basil plant that I brought in after last year's first frost to show off the power of Aloe Vera and pure water. This plant had lost 90% of its foliage to frost, was flowering and severely underwatered. I took 4 cuts with a butter knife (for the purpose of this post, please don't use a butter knife to take cuttings...), dipped them in an aloe vera fillet, stuck them in a clear starbucks cup with distilled water and put another clear cup on top. They got stuck in my propagation chamber for my spider plants that gets 17hrs of light and only replaced the water once in 10ish days. It's seriously that simple. Do you ALOE bro?


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 15, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> When you start reading into it you realize nothing is simple in soil science and I suppose it's just not had the same funding/interest as other sciences(except for profitable/chemical biased purposes). When you try to research this type of stuff, you find obscure one off papers that you either can't fully access or don't quite answer your questions. Nature has her way of doing things which we'll prob never understand, I'm learning it's better for us to KISS and let her do the work, lol.


Haha exactly. I was doing fine teaching myself until I got into the actual organic chemistry of how the different cations and anions work... My learning slowed to a crawl lol. And you're right, there isn't shit for research on it. Thankfully state universities publish most of their stuff. Reading some it though, that's another matter.


----------



## DonBrennon (Jan 15, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Because I feel it should be a staple in everyones garden; I'm posting a reminder about Aloe Vera. If this is new to you, you should really read the beginning of threads. If it's not, my appologies for the umpteenth post about this amazing plant.
> View attachment 3586569I Cloned a basil plant that I brought in after last year's first frost to show off the power of Aloe Vera and pure water. This plant had lost 90% of its foliage to frost, was flowering and severely underwatered. I took 4 cuts with a butter knife (for the purpose of this post, please don't use a butter knife to take cuttings...), dipped them in an aloe vera fillet, stuck them in a clear starbucks cup with distilled water and put another clear cup on top. They got stuck in my propagation chamber for my spider plants that gets 17hrs of light and only replaced the water once in 10ish days. It's seriously that simple. Do you ALOE bro?


Yeah I ALOE bro, the butter knife thing made me piss myself , just done a post on the organic cloning thread, check it out lol


----------



## DonBrennon (Jan 15, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Haha exactly. I was doing fine teaching myself until I got into the actual organic chemistry of how the different cations and anions work... My learning slowed to a crawl lol. And you're right, there isn't shit for research on it. Thankfully state universities publish most of their stuff. Reading some it though, that's another matter.


hahahahahaha, fookin cations and anions? read teaming with microbes, loved it, read teaming with nutrients, I was totally fookin lost, chemistry was never my strong science.


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 16, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> hahahahahaha, fookin cations and anions? read teaming with microbes, loved it, read teaming with nutrients, I was totally fookin lost, chemistry was never my strong science.


I need to, I really do. I've neglected to pick up a copy of a lot of books. Running a business just sucks up a lot of time.


----------



## hyroot (Jan 16, 2016)

If anyone used guardian mite spray go see a doctor for real. It's a pesticide that was marketed towards probiotic and no till growers. Luckily I'm a cheap skate. ... lol. It came to light an independent lab tested it and the owner of the company said that guardian contains imid and ivermectin a neurotoxicity basically. So go get checked out. That chemical is used in medications and has a side effect of causing alzheimers


----------



## hyroot (Jan 16, 2016)

http://www.oregonlive.com/marijuana/index.ssf/2016/01/oregon_flags_potential_problem.html


----------



## GreenSanta (Jan 16, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> hahahahahaha, fookin cations and anions? read teaming with microbes, loved it, read teaming with nutrients, I was totally fookin lost, chemistry was never my strong science.


Haha DonBrennon that one resonated with me, I loved teaming with microbes, but I was lost in teaming with nutrients. Its a winter project of mine to start it over again. Maybe a lifelong project lol.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 17, 2016)

hyroot said:


> If anyone used guardian mite spray go see a doctor for real. It's a pesticide that was marketed towards probiotic and no till growers. Luckily I'm a cheap skate. ... lol. It came to light an independent lab tested it and the owner of the company said that guardian contains imid and ivermectin a neurotoxicity basically. So go get checked out. That chemical is used in medications and has a side effect of causing alzheimers


Been seeing this all over the internet.. What a joke. I hear the owner is supposedly an Illinois resident? Maybe I'll have to go give a neighbor a visit


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## DonBrennon (Jan 17, 2016)

Wanna say thanks to all contributors to this and the other organic threads, this is my second full run in rols(the first one got abandoned due to someone a little too close to home getting busted), I'm starting to get some beautiful fade colours coming through now and I've just had to tie 17 colas up for support and I'm expecting to have to do more tomorrow. Think they've got about 2 & 1/2 week left and they're stacking on some serious weight.

      

I'll do a journal on my next run so I'm not clogging other people threads up with new my obsession for posting photos lol


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

This is way off topic but are there any icmag users here? I'm hoping someone can field a question for me in a pm


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## bizfactory (Jan 20, 2016)

I'm going into my second round of 15 gallon no till pots, I only added some EWC mid flower the first round. What would you guys recommend to top dress with on top of more ewc?

I was thinking maybe something like this for each pot (2 cu ft)

1 c Kelp Meal
1 c Crab Meal
1 c Some sort of rock dust or other minerals?
Anything else I should consider adding? Plants faded at the end but not too bad and turned out to be a great harvest...not really sure how to adjust from that.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I'm going into my second round of 15 gallon no till pots, I only added some EWC mid flower the first round. What would you guys recommend to top dress with on top of more ewc?
> 
> I was thinking maybe something like this for each pot (2 cu ft)
> 
> ...


Add some glacial rock dusts and if you can find it maybe some comfrey leaves as a topdress. Fish hydrosolate is a great product for bloom, but can be expensive.
You could take some banana peels, dry them until brown and completely dry and use as a topdress if you wanna diy it.


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 20, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I'm going into my second round of 15 gallon no till pots, I only added some EWC mid flower the first round. What would you guys recommend to top dress with on top of more ewc?
> 
> I was thinking maybe something like this for each pot (2 cu ft)
> 
> ...


That is about 2 cubic feet of soil. I'd say thats perfect. I would leave out rock dust. Coot said to add that only once.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 20, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I'm going into my second round of 15 gallon no till pots, I only added some EWC mid flower the first round. What would you guys recommend to top dress with on top of more ewc?
> 
> I was thinking maybe something like this for each pot (2 cu ft)
> 
> ...


NEEM!!!!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> That is about 2 cubic feet of soil. I'd say thats perfect. I would leave out rock dust. Coot said to add that only once.


He's also running 15s. I've noticed that smaller no-till planters will eat through available amounts of certain amendments if they're in the first couple of cycles especially if they're pretty long term. I know if I'm running less than 10 gallons I have reammend certain amendments heavier or I'll see deficiencies. For example I have a 15 gallon planter that 8 months ago wouldn't have gotten anything through flower without issues, now it's some of the best soil I have as the nutrients have had ample time to cycle and become available again in amounts necessary for a blooming cannabis plant.
This is also just my experience, our souls *edit("..our Soils.." Lol had to leave that in there for laughs)* will always be different as well as our environments so he may very well not have to add any rock dusts back into it.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> NEEM!!!!


Holy cow, I can't believe I didn't think of that! Talk about a necessary gardening staple.


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## GreenSanta (Jan 20, 2016)

dont over do the neem as it will affect the taste of your flowers, not talking about spraying just the soil amendment


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> dont over do the neem as it will affect the taste of your flowers, not talking about spraying just the soil amendment


Never seem to run into this myself. In your experience what does it do to the flavor? I find the idea of terpenoid production being hindered or altered by something like neem interesting. Aside from adding amendments to alter the brix levels, I haven't found that an amendment can alter flavor.


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## bizfactory (Jan 20, 2016)

Thanks for all the responses! Might go with the Kelp, Crab and then add in the Neem/Karanja 50/50 mix from BAS. How much should I use to avoid the bad taste @GreenSanta?

Also up in the air about minerals, if you had to choose 1 source, what would it be? Does gypsum count?


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## Mohican (Jan 20, 2016)

Copper changes flavor.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks for all the responses! Might go with the Kelp, Crab and then add in the Neem/Karanja 50/50 mix from BAS. How much should I use to avoid the bad taste @GreenSanta?
> 
> Also up in the air about minerals, if you had to choose 1 source, what would it be? Does gypsum count?


If I'm remembering correctly Coot recommends basalt as his only rockdust. Glacial rock dust is a good stand alone. Gypsum is mainly a ph buffer as it's an organic calcium carbonate (I don't remember it's chemical composition) and sulfur. I use both and more, but that's not necessary.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

Mohican said:


> Copper changes flavor.


How's that work?


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## GreenSanta (Jan 20, 2016)

sorry for misleading, coze im not 100% sure on this. I did a run where I over did the neem thinking it would help with pest, even sprinkled neem on top of the containers (that some years ago...) and it just seems like the weed was harsher and also kinda burnt my tongue as I smoked ,... so just to be cautious, you should never too much of any one thing anyway, except compost!!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> sorry for misleading, coze im not 100% sure on this. I did a run where I over did the neem thinking it would help with pest, even sprinkled neem on top of the containers (that some years ago...) and it just seems like the weed was harsher and also kinda burnt my tongue as I smoked ,... so just to be cautious, you should never too much of any one thing anyway, except compost!!


I would imagine if you had a bit of an N tox at any point in flower that could have me to the harsh flavor. Perhaps a small amount of moisture was permitted to stay in the buds for too long during the drying process?
You'll have to pardon my skepticism lol. Its just had to swallow the idea that anything like neem could negatively affect flavor. If simply adding something with natural oils or what have you to the soil altered essential oil production in the plant via direct uptake or microorganism ingestion then uptake, then these kids burying their orange peels in their planters would either end up with orange bud or uber harsh bud, depending on your perception of how that would work. I mean I spray neem oil, soak my soil in it, topdress it in ridiculous amounts, you name it. I even blend up different herbs and spices for a foliar and have never noticed an alteration in smell or taste in any way. 

In my opinion, those spreading this idea about neem have been misinformed by someone who was probably trying to sell them something. The neem tree is holy in India and has been used in their culture for 5,000+ years. I could be wrong, I often am, but I do very much think that after that much time a culture would have abandoned the practice of it wasn't pretty amazing in every way. But that's just my opinion on it.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

Also, India was the doorway to the introduction of cannabis as a medicine in to western society in the early 1800's. Indica means of or from India, traditionally. Native Indians have been using neem and cannabis together longer than most cultures have been waging war, food for thought ;]


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## GreenSanta (Jan 20, 2016)

hey, I am not against neem I use neem, its known as a great amendments for flowers in general, all I am saying is in my opinion you should not get carried away with it and use more than whats needed.


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## Mohican (Jan 20, 2016)

Yes, sulfur is important too. Epsom is magnesium sulfate and seems to do a great job providing both to the soil.

Copper probably works as a catalyst for an enzyme. I use human supplement pills and dissolve one in a 5 gallon bucket of pH 5.7 water (like rain) along with any other carb amendments and feed once during early flower.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> hey, I am not against neem I use neem, its known as a great amendments for flowers in general, all I am saying is in my opinion you should not get carried away with it and use more than whats needed.


I completely agree, and I think that rule is a good general rule for everything we add to our soil. My only reason for being so long winded was to help those who are maybe new to the organic world understand how amazing neem is and avoid any misunderstanding of the plant. I've just seen and heard a lot of bad press (not saying at all that you were giving it such) about neem distributed to the unaware that scared them away from it completely.


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## Mohican (Jan 20, 2016)

When I bought my neam flour, the Indian store owner said his father would make a tea with it and spray it on his plants.


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## calliandra (Jan 20, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> dont over do the neem as it will affect the taste of your flowers, not talking about spraying just the soil amendment


hey thanks! -- really cool you mention that!
I was topdressing during veg and got the feeling my plants started smelling strange - thought _it could be_ the neem meal -- so yes,probably it was!!


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## calliandra (Jan 20, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I would imagine if you had a bit of an N tox at any point in flower that could have me to the harsh flavor. Perhaps a small amount of moisture was permitted to stay in the buds for too long during the drying process?
> You'll have to pardon my skepticism lol. Its just had to swallow the idea that anything like neem could negatively affect flavor. If simply adding something with natural oils or what have you to the soil altered essential oil production in the plant via direct uptake or microorganism ingestion then uptake, then these kids burying their orange peels in their planters would either end up with orange bud or uber harsh bud, depending on your perception of how that would work. I mean I spray neem oil, soak my soil in it, topdress it in ridiculous amounts, you name it. I even blend up different herbs and spices for a foliar and have never noticed an alteration in smell or taste in any way.
> 
> In my opinion, those spreading this idea about neem have been misinformed by someone who was probably trying to sell them something. The neem tree is holy in India and has been used in their culture for 5,000+ years. I could be wrong, I often am, but I do very much think that after that much time a culture would have abandoned the practice of it wasn't pretty amazing in every way. But that's just my opinion on it.


In my case, the plants smelled harsh, almost disagreeable. They stopped when I stopped using the neem meal.
But then, that was also the point where I raised my lights more.
So maybe that is less far fetched? my plants stink until I raise the lights for them??
LOL
I'm just having fun here, not trying to push any theory over another let alone settle the question of neem meal's oleofactory effects on the plants, K! 
There has to be _some _mystery after all


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## Mohican (Jan 20, 2016)

Observe and record. It is the scientific way!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

calliandra said:


> hey thanks! -- really cool you mention that!
> I was topdressing during veg and got the feeling my plants started smelling strange - thought _it could be_ the neem meal -- so yes,probably it was!!


Are you sure you weren't just smelling the neem decomposing? 


calliandra said:


> In my case, the plants smelled harsh, almost disagreeable. They stopped when I stopped using the neem meal.
> But then, that was also the point where I raised my lights more.
> So maybe that is less far fetched? my plants stink until I raise the lights for them??
> LOL
> ...


Lol maybe they decided to have a terpene strike until you have them less light ;P cannabis can be a fickle lady


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 20, 2016)

Mohican said:


> Yes, sulfur is important too. Epsom is magnesium sulfate and seems to do a great job providing both to the soil.
> 
> Copper probably works as a catalyst for an enzyme. I use human supplement pills and dissolve one in a 5 gallon bucket of pH 5.7 water (like rain) along with any other carb amendments and feed once during early flower.


Copper catalyzing an enzymatic reaction actually makes sense to me, I need to google this more.


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## calliandra (Jan 20, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Are you sure you weren't just smelling the neem decomposing?


Actually, I investigated that possibility -- sniffing the soil , and the resin off the plants, separately. It was definitely the plant that had an acrid, rather unpleasant smell.



Midwest Weedist said:


> Lol maybe they decided to have a terpene strike until you have them less light ;P cannabis can be a fickle lady


_OR!_ it was the smell of the neem decomposing that floated up over the sticky areas of the plants and then somehow got combined lmao (but even that should then also happen to other people, i.e. be a known side effect of using it?)
Cheers!


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## Kind Sir (Jan 20, 2016)

So Ive hear people dont like perlite, so what are your favorite aeration additions? I dont like breaking up lava rock, and read using100% rice hulls can be problematic for whatever reason. 

Id like to add rotten wood chunks, whats the besr way to make that?


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## hyroot (Jan 20, 2016)

Pumice rocks. Pun intended


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 21, 2016)

Quick question guys. I just completed my first complete run of ROLS and I have to say it's freaking harsh.

How would one go about a flush? Do you guys have to flush? 

Before I did this I always starved for the last 2 weeks approx. And always found it to taste and smoke better.

Thoughts?


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## bizfactory (Jan 21, 2016)

@Organicgrow42 were your plants green until the end? I just finished up my first rols run and I don't find the smoke to be any harsher than when using bottled nutrients but I also wouldn't consider it smooth either.. it's still smoke after all. I'm also shit at detecting subtle flavors, smells, etc in pot so who knows!


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## oldbikepunk (Jan 21, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Quick question guys. I just completed my first complete run of ROLS and I have to say it's freaking harsh.
> 
> How would one go about a flush? Do you guys have to flush?
> 
> ...


Same weed? I'm curious. I have a kid here who thinks my weed is smoother from not using the C02 to dense the buds up, but I'm also not adding any nutrients the whole grow. I use increasingly larger pots and recycled soil mixed with new and perlite. I normally added an appropriately diluted amount of fertilizer with each watering. I haven't had the time to try the ROLS thing. I'm afraid too of bringing bugs into a grow. How do you keep mites out? I'm more into isolation from bug problems from outside clones (I make my own mostly) and anything that may somehow carry mites inside where I grow. Is it the same strain though? That seems more harsh now?


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## GreenSanta (Jan 22, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> @Organicgrow42 were your plants green until the end? I just finished up my first rols run and I don't find the smoke to be any harsher than when using bottled nutrients but I also wouldn't consider it smooth either.. it's still smoke after all. I'm also shit at detecting subtle flavors, smells, etc in pot so who knows!


your first round might have had too much food? were the plants fading at harvest or still lush green? People always say how smooth my weed is but I forget cause I been growing like this for many years and I am so a pot snob I dont ever smoke other peoples weed. Flavors and smells can easily be lost in the drying process, also very much strain dependent you might not have found the best strain for you... one of my favorite weed to smell and smoke seems average to other people.


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 22, 2016)

Plants stay green til around week 4 or 5 and then I give 1 tea maybe 2 depending on how they look. I starve last 2 weeks to try to ensure no left over nutes but how can you do this with rols? 

The particular strain that I tried first is jedi kush. Green crack has a couple more weeks behind it as my second attempt. I normally dump my soil out and reamed and then let sit a couple months so not new to recycle just no til I guess

Thoughts?


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 22, 2016)

Hey everyone. I am having some smart pot issues. Thought I would see if anyone has solved it. I'm sure most smart pot users know how easily the edges of the smart pot dries out. This effectively reduces the amount of soil you have to grow in because plants cannot survive in bone dry soil on the edges of the smart pot.

I am thinking to remove and remix the soil and wrap the smartpot in another layer of fabric then plastic tarp to help contain moisture. I think it will work because the double fabric layers should stay relatively dry but the tarp will keep all the moist air inside the fabric. What do you think?

Has anyone else found neat tricks to rewet the sides of smartpots without the water running out?

I love the pots. Hate the loss of water from the sides. Talk about frustration!

edit: After thinking. Maybe wrapping in 2 or 3 layers of fabric in place of the plastic tarp would be better to keep water from evaporating. I'm looking for any suggestions!


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## bizfactory (Jan 22, 2016)

Why wouldn't you just use a non-fabric pot?


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## DonBrennon (Jan 22, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> Hey everyone. I am having some smart pot issues. Thought I would see if anyone has solved it. I'm sure most smart pot users know how easily the edges of the smart pot dries out. This effectively reduces the amount of soil you have to grow in because plants cannot survive in bone dry soil on the edges of the smart pot.
> 
> I am thinking to remove and remix the soil and wrap the smartpot in another layer of fabric then plastic tarp to help contain moisture. I think it will work because the double fabric layers should stay relatively dry but the tarp will keep all the moist air inside the fabric. What do you think?
> 
> ...


My original thought is, if you're gonna go to all that effort and cost of materials, why not just get some fabric pots? maybe the same issue? (drying out), or other issues? 

I did use and like the benefits of smart pots while growing in coco, and I've still got them somewhere (in my attic I think), but I hated having to push the coco into all the little dimples when potting up, which I feel is essential when using smart pots. This reduces drying out (maybe this is just with coco, but I'm sure it'd be the same with soil), you've got to pack it in to them cones, It's not like soil compacting at the bottom of a container, the roots will work towards the air hole even if you pack it real tight, because of the fact that that's still the best source of 'fresh' air and will still dry out slightly before the rest of your pot.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 22, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Why wouldn't you just use a non-fabric pot?


hahaha, you beat me to it, I was too busy elaborating


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 22, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Why wouldn't you just use a non-fabric pot?


I have huge home stitch 34 gallon pots on wheels. I always liked smart pots because I can grow much bigger plants in them. So I want to stay with them I just want to use all my soil.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 22, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> I have huge home stitch 34 gallon pots on wheels. I always liked smart pots because I can grow much bigger plants in them. So I want to stay with them I just want to use all my soil.


I feel you get the same air pruning and lateral branching of roots with a fabric pot, and if you are worried about drying out, at least you can spray the outside of your fab's, not diss'in smarties, but if you're gonna wrap it in plastic, whats the point of using a smartie?


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 22, 2016)

I agree with you completely. But I want my cake and I want to eat it too lol. I don't grow in very crowded area so that may be why I have to resort to this type of action. I wrapped a pot in just tarp to see if I experience root circling on the tarp. If not I would say this is a great way to use smart pots because they will stay confined in a very high humidity area. I'll report in a couple months!


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## DonBrennon (Jan 22, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> I agree with you completely. But I want my cake and I want to eat it too lol. I don't grow in very crowded area so that may be why I have to resort to this type of action. I wrapped a pot in just tarp to see if I experience root circling on the tarp. If not I would say this is a great way to use smart pots because they will stay confined in a very high humidity area. I'll report in a couple months!


Yeah, I'd certainly be interested in the results, like I said, I loved my smart pots, just found re-potting hard work


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 22, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Yeah, I'd certainly be interested in the results, like I said, I loved my smart pots, just found re-potting hard work


If you can, try to start your seed in the final pot. It allows the plant to grow bigger. You can find a bunch of studies on it. And now you can love smart pots again! lol


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## DonBrennon (Jan 22, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> If you can, try to start your seed in the final pot. It allows the plant to grow bigger. You can find a bunch of studies on it. And now you can love smart pots again! lol


I think I'm gonna try that on my side by side soil run, clear plastic cup over the top for germination, then hardening off? What do you think Not sure yet, still plenty of time and planning to be done on that one


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## GreenSanta (Jan 22, 2016)

I feel good about my laziness and cheapness


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## DonPetro (Jan 23, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Yeah, I'd certainly be interested in the results, like I said, I loved my smart pots, just found re-potting hard work


Stand your smart pot on an upside down pail and peel it downward from the soil.


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## Rrog (Jan 23, 2016)

I use Velcro Geopots. Love them

I like the video @GreenSanta. I like how the soil humus buffers the Cl. Or you can add humus to the water and neutralize - same thing.

Cool this isn't a big ass ache


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## GreenSanta (Jan 23, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I use Velcro Geopots. Love them
> 
> I like the video @GreenSanta. I like how the soil humus buffers the Cl. Or you can add humus to the water and neutralize - same thing.
> 
> Cool this isn't a big ass ache


or simply have humus in your pots! I have to confess, I have been using straight tap water for a couple years, I have a hose running from the tap to the grow room, boom watering is a breeze compared to what it used to be!!!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 23, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Quick question guys. I just completed my first complete run of ROLS and I have to say it's freaking harsh.
> 
> How would one go about a flush? Do you guys have to flush?
> 
> ...


What are you trying to flush out of your soil? All you'd be doing is leeching away plant available nutrients. Water may be a solvent but it's not going to magically pull the taste of chlorophyll or more water out of your cannabis. In organic permaculture based cultivation methods your plants have control over what they use in the soil (given there aren't vast quantities of plant available nutrients in the soil or being fed to the soil) and will go through senescence at the time of their life that it would in nature / harvest time.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 24, 2016)

DonPetro said:


> Stand your smart pot on an upside down pail and peel it downward from the soil.


It's the refilling that got on my tits, pushing soil into all them little dimples to avoid air pockets. I did love peeling the pots off and looking at the structure of the root system, they'd usually be pretty dry by this stage, but the soil(coco in my case) always held together solid


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## DonBrennon (Jan 24, 2016)

I had a great automated feeding system set up with my coco in smart pots. I dialed the pump system in with a 15 minute segmental timer to supply 500ml of water/nutes to each of 16 x 5 gal smart pots over a 15 minute period, slow watering them through dripper rings, without water pissing out of all the holes. I'd just up the number of 15 min feedings as the plants grew and required more(I became very lazy in my growing, I prefer to be more hands on these days).

Wrong place to talk about that...........I know.......

But

I've thought about doing the same with the 8 x 20 gals I've got in my main room, but the soil doesn't dry out as consistently between the pots as they did with much smaller smarties, so some could become waterlogged while other dry out.

I've read about the blumats, but I'm unsure about them, I reckon I'd need around 3-4 per pot and I'd be worried about waterlogging. Plus I'm saving for my next investment, 2 big fuck off DIY cob fixtures to replace my 600 HID's, they're gonna be expensive, but the price of electricity here is extortionate. My last bill was £165 or $235 for the month, but the use of led will allow me to expand slightly as well as providing better efficiency


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 24, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I had a great automated feeding system set up with my coco in smart pots. I dialed the pump system in with a 15 minute segmental timer to supply 500ml of water/nutes to each of 16 x 5 gal smart pots over a 15 minute period, slow watering them through dripper rings, without water pissing out of all the holes. I'd just up the number of 15 min feedings as the plants grew and required more(I became very lazy in my growing, I prefer to be more hands on these days).
> 
> Wrong place to talk about that...........I know.......
> 
> ...


From what I've seen those using high end cob lighting are absolutely loving the results. A lot of people report more terps or a wider terpenoid profile.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 24, 2016)

BIOCHAR! 
http://biochar.pbworks.com/w/page/9748043/FrontPage
I pulled out most of the useful information from this wonderful website. There is information on how to make it listed on the site that I didn't include. 


*"1.02 What are the benefits of using biochar in the garden?*
The following benefits occur with additions of biochar


Enhanced plant growth
Suppressed methane emission
Reduced nitrous oxide emission (estimate 50%) (see 5.10 below)
Reduced fertilizer requirement (estimate 10%)
Reduced leaching of nutrients
Stored carbon in a long term stable sink
Reduces soil acidity: raises soil pH (see 5.01 below)
Reduces aluminum toxicity
Increased soil aggregation due to increased fungal hyphae
Improved soil water handling characteristics
Increased soil levels of available Ca, Mg, P, and K
Increased soil microbial respiration
Increased soil microbial biomass
Stimulated symbiotic nitrogen fixation in legumes
Increased arbuscular mycorrhyzal fungi
Increased cation exchange capacity

*1.03 How much biochar do I need to apply to achieve these benefits?*
This is the subject of ongoing studies. The degree of benefit clearly increases with the application rate. If you are satisfied with a very rough estimate, we would venture that a target application rate of 5 kg/m2 (1 lb/ft2) would be sufficient to achieve these results in most gardens. However, there are substantial benefits related to soil biology at rates well below 1 kg/m2. This FAQ includes information on how to use small amounts of biochar in your garden to best advantage. [peer review requested on target application rate statement]



*1.04 How long does it take for these benefits to become apparent? How long do they persist?*
Some effects, such as lowering soil acidity, occur immediately. Other effects depend on soil biology and take time to develop. Increased cation exchange capacity will take several years to develop fully. The good news is that these effects are very persistent.

*1.07 Do charcoal properties vary with source and temperature? What properties are important to the gardener?*
Charcoal's chemical properties do vary with source and temperature. In the opinion of this author the single most important quality of charcoal to the gardener is the ability to lower acidity, also termed liming capacity or effective neutralizing power. This is easily measured in an agricultural laboratory as calcium carbonate equivalent (CCE). If you are growing acid-loving plants you will want a charcoal with negligible CCE, and purportedly this is true of Mulga (Acacia) wood, bamboo, and pine needle derived charcoal. If you are combating low soil pH and aluminum toxicity you will want a charcoal with substantial CCE. Oak and maple hardwood charcoal appear to have substantial CCE. Apparently Amazonian hardwood derived charcoal shares this characteristic. Raising soil pH has been identified as biochar's most important contribution to influencing soil quality in the context of Terra Preta. (Source)



*1.08 What temperature range is considered "low temperature" in the context of biochar?*
The theoretical low end of the range approaches 120 deg C, the lowest temperature at which wood will char, (Reference) thus the temperature at the pyrolysis front. A more practical low end is to use the piloted ignition temperature of wood, typically 350 deg C. (Reference) The theoretical high end, between biochar and more traditional charcoal, depends on the process and feedstock used, but is seldom indicated in excess of 600 deg C. This temperature range is more relevant to woody charcoal than to charcoal made from bamboo, or other high cellulose fuels. Woody charcoal has an interior layer of bio-oil condensates that microbes consume and is equal to glucose in its effect on microbial growth (Christoph Steiner, Energy with Agricultural Carbon Utilization (EACU) Symposium, June, 2004) High temperature char loses this layer and consequently may not promote soil fertility as well. (Source)



*1.09 Can I substitute other forms of charcoal for biochar?*
Absolutely. While the bio-oil condensates in biochar definitely play a role in soil fertility, charcoal without bio-oil condensates has been demonstrated to produce excellent results. It is normally advisable to avoid industrial charcoal briquettes because the binders used during manufacture can add undesirable constituents. On the other hand, briquette binder can be innocuous. See below (5.0 for information on how to receive some standardized rice-hull charcoal to conduct your own home research pot trials, and compare your results with others. 



*1.10 Does charcoal break down in soil?*
Charcoal is highly stable, however soil microbes do break it down, although at a very slow rate. 

*2.02 What can I grow to make my own charcoal?*
In Britain commercially available charcoal is made from fuel produced by "coppicing" as has been done in British forests for more than 2,000 years. This is an ecologically sustainable use of forests and may contribute to the health and longevity of some British forests.



*2.03 Can I burn to bones to make charcoal for my garden?*
Yes. It appears that charcoal derived from bones, along with charcoal derived from other types of food wastes, was a component in Terra Preta de Indio. Bones are an excellent source of phosphorus, an element in limited supply in cellulosic charcoal. Initial impressions are that bone charcoal will have higher ash and CCE (See 1.07) than cellulose-derived charcoal. 


*3.05 Besides water, what else can I soak the biochar in?*
You would want to choose materials that would mitigate stalling [ See 5.04]: Compost tea, MiracleGro™(Calculation), fish emulsion, urine, more on urine, ....



*3.06 Can I add biochar to compost?*
Yes. This will help fill the biochar with biology and humic substances. For the added benefit of odor control, consider topping off each addition to the household kitchen scrap collector with a healthy layer ofbiochar.



*3.07 Will biochar affect the compost process?*
Casual observation indicates that adding fine, freshly made biochar may accelerate the composting process.



*3.05 Will biochar harm the worms in my compost?*
Composting worms have been observed to be unaffected below 50% charcoal content, above which reduced worm activity could occur.


*4.0 How do I apply Biochar?*
*4.01 What is the target application rate to achieve the effects of biochar?*
From the data available to date, it appears that crops respond positively to biochar additions up to at least 50 Mg C ha-1, provided sufficient fertilizer is provided to prevent charcoal induced stalling (see 5.04). This is equivalent to 5 kg/m2 (1 lb/sf) and works out to a loose charcoal depth of about 5 cm or 2 in. (Calculation) Crops may show growth reductions at higher applications. For most plant species and soil conditions studied to date, this growth reduction did not occur even with 140 Mg C ha-1." 

Continued


----------



## Midwest Weedist (Jan 24, 2016)

*"4.01 What materials combine well with biochar for application?*
*4.02 How is biochar generally used?*
[normally , mixed in much the way you would prepare a planting bed by mixing in compost and other bulk organic amendments]

*4.03 What is the normal application rate for biochar?*
This is not well established 


*5.0 What happens after biochar is in the soil?*
*5.01 Does biochar affecnsoil pH?*
Raising soil pH is biochar's most important contribution to influencing soil quality. (Source) Soil pH mostly influences the relative availability of nutrients. At low pH, aluminum toxicity is particularly harmful to plant growth. Aluminum toxicity is an extensive and severe soil problem and biochar is the most available and obvious solution that we have to combat it. Soil phosphorus availability is highly dependent on soil pH range, and thus biochar can be used to substantially increase phosphorus availability in soils that are below the ideal pH range of 6.5 to 7.0. (More on biochar and soil pH)



*5.02 Does biochar increase soil CEC and Base Saturation?*
*5.03 Does biochar improve soil moisture characteristics?*
*5.04 Can adding biochar cause stalled growth?*
Adding charcoal to soil can cause growth to stall where soil nitrogen levels are low. That is probably not the case in most garden situations which have the advantage of compost, manure and kitchen scraps.

_The combination of returning bio-chars with high C/N ratios and abiotic buffering of mineral N may in some situations lead to low N availability to crops (Lehmann and Rondon 2005). In experiments in northern Sweden, however, increased nitrification and decreased ammonification was found after the addition of activated C to a pine forest (Berglund et al. 2004). It appears that the effects of bio-char on N dynamics in soils is not entirely understood. In a greenhouse study in Colombia, leguminous plants were able to compensate for low N availability with increased biological N2 fixation which is actually stimulated by bio-char additions (Rondon et al. 2004). Non-legumes, however, may require additional N fertilization to compensate for the immobilization. This is an undesirable effect as more N applications require more production of N fertilizers which is very energy-demanding (West and Marland 2002)._ (Source - PDF)





*5.05 What can be done to prevent stalled growth ?*
_Three solutions are possible which are not mutually exclusive: (i) bio-chars are only applied to leguminous plants until sufficient N has built up to allow economically satisfactory production of non-legumes without a net increase of N fertilization; (ii) bio-chars are fortified with N for example in a composting step or during the production of bio-char in an energy production process (Lee and Li 2003); (iii) the amounts of applied bio-char are adjusted at a sufficiently low level to allow for N to accumulate and plant productivity to optimize._ (Source - PDF)



*5.05 Does biochar affect soil ecology?*
The structure of the charcoal provide a refuge for small beneficial soil organisms from large grazers like earthworms.

Charcoal increases activity by mycorhizal fungi. It doesn't appear that this effect changes with the manufacturing temperature of the charcoal.

_There is a long tradition in Japan of using charcoal as a soil improver. Nishio (1996) states “the idea that the application of charcoal stimulates indigenous arbuscular mycorrhiza fungi in soil and thus promotes plant growth is relatively well-known in Japan, although the actual application of charcoal is limited due to its high cost”. The relationship between mycorrhizal fungi and charcoal may be important in realising the potential of charcoal to improve fertility. Nishio (1996) reports that charcoal was found to be ineffective at stimulating alfalfa growth when added to sterilised soil, but that alfalfa growth was increased by a factor of 1.7-1.8 when unsterilised soil containing native mycorrizal fungi was also added. Warnock et al (2007) suggest four possible mechanisms by which biochar might influence mycorrhizal fungi abundance. These are (in decreasing order of currently available evidence supporting them): “alteration of soil physico-chemical properties; indirect effects on mycorrhizae through effects on other soil microbes; plant–fungus signalling interference and detoxification of allelochemicals on biochar; and provision of refugia from fungal grazers._ (Source - PDF)

Low temperature woody charcoal (more so than grass or high cellulose) has an interior layer of bio-oil condensates that microbes consume and is equal to glucose in its effect on microbial growth (Christoph Steiner, Energy with Agricultural Carbon Utilization (EACU) Symposium, June, 2004) (Source)

_Steiner et al (200 observed that basal respiration (BR), microbial biomass, population growth and the microbe's efficiency (expressed by the metabolic quotient) increased linearly and significantly with increasing charcoal concentrations (50, 100 and 150 g kg-1 soil). Application of smoke condensates (pyroligneous acid, PA) causes a sharp increase in all these, plus in substrate-induced respiration (SIR), as well as an exponential increase in population. We suppose that the condensates from smoke contain easily degradable substances and only small amounts of inhibitory agents, which could be utilized by the microbes for their metabolism._ (Source)

Aggregation is improved:

_The presence of bio-char in soils actively promotes the formation of aggregates through a greater abundance of fungal hyphae. Bio-char is able to serve as a habitat for extraradical fungal hyphae that sporulate in their micropores due to lower competition from saprophytes (Saito and Marumoto, 2002)._ (Source - PDF)



*5.06 Does biochar improve plant growth?*
*5.07 How much improved plant growth can I expect?*
You can expect that harvested weight will be, in most cases, observeably higher with a combination of char+fertilizer than you will achieve with the same amount of fertilizer alone. In some cases, the observed effect will be dramatic. Steiner (2007) reported a doubling of maize grain yield with fertilizer+char compared to fertilizer alone. Yields subsequently declined over the course of four cropping cycles, however, the decline was less with char than with without. Significantly, soil P, K, Ca, Mg remained higher in the char amended soil despite greater harvest removal. (Source - PDF). Considering the few places that biochar has been tried, it should not come as a tremendous surprise to find that your actual results may turn out to be less than dramatic than this.



_Data on the effect of charcoal on crop yields is still rudimentary – only a limited number of crops grown on a limited number of soils have been investigated. The interactions between crop, soil type, local conditions, and biochar feedstock, production method and application rate will have to be studied in far more detail before large scale deployment of biochar as a soil amendment can be contemplated. Nonetheless, there is evidence that at least for some crop/soil combinations, addition of charcoal may be beneficial._ (Source - PDF)"


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## DonBrennon (Jan 24, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> From what I've seen those using high end cob lighting are absolutely loving the results. A lot of people report more terps or a wider terpenoid profile.


I can't wait to buy everything and get building, but I'm planning on using a shit load of cobs and running them real gently on passive heatsinks. I've done a few designs already, my latest one involved 40 cxb3070, 20 per light running 4 per heatsink at 700mA, but I change my mind on a weekly basis pmsl, I'm leaning toward 3590's now, but thats gonna take another whole load of number crunching to come up with the design.

At least I've found a great resource for helping with the design, check it out






https://www.rollitup.org/t/mau5capades-builds-grow-journal.881192/


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## DonBrennon (Jan 24, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> *"4.01 What materials combine well with biochar for application?*
> *4.02 How is biochar generally used?*
> [normally , mixed in much the way you would prepare a planting bed by mixing in compost and other bulk organic amendments]
> 
> ...


Quality!!!!


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## calliandra (Jan 24, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I feel good about my laziness and cheapness


o.m.g. @GreenSanta double thanks for that link -- just browsed more of his "debunking" vids and wow do they take the pressure off me sourcing all those exotic nutes that are always being talked of, especially on the forums!

From my little excursion it seems that end of the day, just gathering fall leaves and composting them (ideally vermicomposting) will provide plants with *everything *they'll ever need! Whew!

Time to kick back and relax, not let anyone sell me anything ever again -- and let mama nature do the work!


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 24, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I can't wait to buy everything and get building, but I'm planning on using a shit load of cobs and running them real gently on passive heatsinks. I've done a few designs already, my latest one involved 40 cxb3070, 20 per light running 4 per heatsink at 700mA, but I change my mind on a weekly basis pmsl, I'm leaning toward 3590's now, but thats gonna take another whole load of number crunching to come up with the design.
> 
> At least I've found a great resource for helping with the design, check it out
> 
> ...


@hyroot this is your kind of thing isn't it?


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## GreenSanta (Jan 24, 2016)

Lots of vids on YouTube showing step by step how to diy cob leds. Not cheap though I have nearly everything to build my first fixtures and I'm up to around 1100$ cad and I still have to buy fans, thermal compound and electrical wire.... So around $1200 cad for 400watts ... Cxb3590 apparently top of the line.

I would not have spent that kind of cash had I not grown a cycle with area51 vero29 cobs. I was impressed.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 24, 2016)

check this web page out for possible soil amendments, pmsl, talk about diverse, get to a bait shop

http://onlineshop.aabaits.co.uk/category/Basemixes/Ingredients/Base Mix Ingredients


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## Al Yamoni (Jan 26, 2016)

Hello, I wanted to ask if anyone here in the ROLS thread has any info on the harmless harvest coconut water with coffee extract added? It is the only HH product that I have access to in my area.. Thanks for any help!.. Sorry if this has been a topic of discussion in the recent past..


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 28, 2016)

Anyone ever successfully use rols in their compost teas? I've got some soil from my last batch that is absolutely loaded with mycelium that I'm contemplating using in my next compost tea. I usually use vermicompost in the winter but I was looking at it this morning and was thinking that there's got to be way more beneficial micros in it than what's in my bag of vermi from bas.


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## Midwest Weedist (Jan 28, 2016)

Al Yamoni said:


> Hello, I wanted to ask if anyone here in the ROLS thread has any info on the harmless harvest coconut water with coffee extract added? It is the only HH product that I have access to in my area.. Thanks for any help!.. Sorry if this has been a topic of discussion in the recent past..


Sounds like you should be highly skeptical of using it. Post a picture of the ingredients if you can.


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 28, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Anyone ever successfully use rols in their compost teas? I've got some soil from my last batch that is absolutely loaded with mycelium that I'm contemplating using in my next compost tea. I usually use vermicompost in the winter but I was looking at it this morning and was thinking that there's got to be way more beneficial micros in it than what's in my bag of vermi from bas.


I agree with Midwest Weedist. Just get the freeze dried powder or go to walmart and buy a dang coconut lol!


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2016)

calliandra said:


> o.m.g. @GreenSanta double thanks for that link -- just browsed more of his "debunking" vids and wow do they take the pressure off me sourcing all those exotic nutes that are always being talked of, especially on the forums!
> 
> From my little excursion it seems that end of the day, just gathering fall leaves and composting them (ideally vermicomposting) will provide plants with *everything *they'll ever need! Whew!
> 
> Time to kick back and relax, not let anyone sell me anything ever again -- and let mama nature do the work!


The male brain wants to tweak everything. Growing weed is a great way for a lot of folks to get their tweak on. That's not me, anymore.

I'm completely of the opinion that everyday scraps run thru a vermicomposter will do it. Minimal local materials, assuming you have a soil worth a shit to begin with. Ammend with local materials. Many N sources available.

MAKE YOUR OWN BIOCHAR!! YES!!


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## Organicgrow42 (Jan 28, 2016)

Hey @Rrog, do you care to share what that simple recipe is?

I'm thinking of going backwards and starting fresh and in the mean time, I am going to get what I have tested and see where im at.


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## Al Yamoni (Jan 28, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Sounds like you should be highly skeptical of using it. Post a picture of the ingredients if you can.


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## Rrog (Jan 28, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Hey @Rrog, do you care to share what that simple recipe is?
> 
> I'm thinking of going backwards and starting fresh and in the mean time, I am going to get what I have tested and see where im at.


Still working it out. Classic 1/3 aeration, 1/3 humus, 1/3 "fill" I'd like to use almost completed leaf mold instead of peat, but availability means you have to plan ahead to make it. I like the idea of incorporating more leaves and their locked up nutrients in the soil.

Biochar is part of the aeration package, along with lava rock. No lava rock here in MI, but i have two pallets of it, so that's my ticket. I make it now in 55 gallon TLUDs. I wish we could recycle glass into puffed stone here in michigan. Like the "Growstones" product. The biochar is a great small aeration material. Breaks down slowly, so stays an aeration amendment for a while. I like larger aeration up to 1-2" in addition, which is the role of the lava rock. I'm going to test a high biochar soil with standard small char 1/4"- 1", but also up to 2". No lava in this case. Likely 30% by volume in the test pot BUT maybe 75% on that volume is from big pieces, nit the fines. So less surface area. I'm curious and optimistic. Obviously I love aeration- all soft Geopots for me.

Humus is aged manure and worm castings.

The amendments will be local. Many N sources like alfalfa as top dressing and drench amendments.

For pest control, local bug exoskeletons. Dead mealworms, etc for Chitin-eating bacteria. Then Nematodes and BTI together. Not looking at Neem as a preventative. Would deploy if needed, however I've had great luck with just the little critters.

Vermicompost is at the core, because as simple as the recipe sounds, my own vermicompost will add a depth of goodness you can't get in a bag. The VC is itself very complex, but they're doing all the work.


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## Mary's Confidant (Jan 28, 2016)

Doesn't all of this coconut water and aloe get expensive?


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## DonBrennon (Jan 28, 2016)

Mary's Confidant said:


> Doesn't all of this coconut water and aloe get expensive?


For aloe.......buy a plant and grow it, it's so easy and you''ll love it, divide it up, make more plants............then it's free. Coconut powder or water varies............I get a 1.5L bottle for £2/$3, I can't use all that on my plants before it will go off....... so guess what, I drink it, it's so f-in good for you, not just the plants, try it ................................... edit - 100% pure coconut water......not what's on the picture above


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## DonBrennon (Jan 28, 2016)

Al Yamoni said:


> View attachment 3595897 View attachment 3595898


The label is a total contradiction....................................it say "100% Raw coconut water", then lists coffee extract as an ingredient

I've never heard of anyone using coffee extract as a fert, might be interesting to see the results.........I'd expect nitrogen toxicity though.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 28, 2016)

aaawwwwww shit, now I want you to try it and post your results pmsl, imagine if you've accidentally found the ultimate growth stimulant, pure coconut water with added nitrogen and caffeine,................do it...........pmsl............or try it on something not so important (eg throw away spare cutting, tomato plant, house plant etc)


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## Al Yamoni (Jan 28, 2016)

The coconut water is tasty and I drink the majority of it.. I have a plant that is crazy nitrogen hungry in week 4 of bloom so I guess I will use it on her in the name of science. The aloe grows itself in my house. Sometimes I forget she's there, she's too easy to please.


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## Michigan Med Creamery (Jan 29, 2016)

Michigan baked blue clay does wonders for drainage just gotta sieve it.


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## Rrog (Jan 29, 2016)

That's a great example of a simple, local amendment. Thanks!


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## Michigan Med Creamery (Jan 29, 2016)

Rrog i found this out with my latest outdoor grow i had too many out there and only carried a bail of pro mix and few amends... i wish i had room to make all my own soils... but i dont... anyway i predug holes etc... the plant roots grew larger than the prehole... thus makin it threw the clay around these holes... i grew same strain indoor and outdoor... called black cherry... lets just put it this way the outdoor was gone first and my indoor is pretty decent stuff but i aint tootin horn here just throwin out info.. anyway i brought home shovel slices of this clay baked it up and it crumbles up pretty decent so big chunks i would suggest to cut to size of chunk needed while wet then bake... or crush and sieze like i do... or whateva


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## littlejacob (Jan 30, 2016)

Bonjour
What container size minimum for one plant in rolls?
I was in 3gl and I realise that there is almost only roots in the pots...I guess that is why you all use large pots or containers!
So maybe 7/8gl mini...and what to use 
to change the old roots into new food?
CU


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## Howard i know (Jan 31, 2016)

good question LJ - Id be interested in hearing what others think as well....



littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> What container size minimum for one plant in rolls?
> I was in 3gl and I realise that there is almost only roots in the pots...I guess that is why you all use large pots or containers!
> So maybe 7/8gl mini...and what to use
> ...


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## Michigan Med Creamery (Feb 1, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> What container size minimum for one plant in rolls?
> I was in 3gl and I realise that there is almost only roots in the pots...I guess that is why you all use large pots or containers!
> So maybe 7/8gl mini...and what to use
> ...


One plant in rolls? What do u mean by rolls?


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## DonBrennon (Feb 1, 2016)

Michigan Med Creamery said:


> One plant in rolls? What do u mean by rolls?


The clue is in the thread title, rols, he just added an extra 'l'


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## Mary's Confidant (Feb 1, 2016)

Mary's Confidant said:


> I just purchased all of the ingredients to attempt ROLS.
> 
> I purchased:
> 
> ...


Another attempt for some feedback on a first mix for ROLS. As I understand it, most of you let it bake for 2-4 weeks, is this correct? How would you go about mixing the above?


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## elkamino (Feb 1, 2016)

Mary's Confidant said:


> Another attempt for some feedback on a first mix for ROLS. As I understand it, most of you let it bake for 2-4 weeks, is this correct? How would you go about mixing the above?


Hello! I believe many people mix/age it many different ways, but you may want to start on P1 of this thread. There's LOTS of super useful info in the first many pages, including this incredible post (#14) by Cann... 


Cann said:


> So even though this thread is about soil recycling, I figured I would show the process of soil building from scratch. I find "recycling" to be a silly term anyway, reamending makes more sense...regardless, the "recycling" process is simply adding amendments to a soil base - which also happens to be the second part of building a soil from scratch, so it all applies. Hope that makes sense.
> 
> Building a soil from scratch is much cheaper and much more rewarding than buying premixed soil. Also the quality is incomparable.
> 
> ...


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 1, 2016)

The diatomaceous earth should not be mixed in. Use it only on top layer of soil, everything else, depending on how much u r using, sound fine. No experience w the grows tone though


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## Howard i know (Feb 2, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Ok I will!
> Thanks!
> So now everybody know I have organic olive...if any riu member spend Holliday in S/E France come and test it with a good pastis! No problems!
> CU!


is there a good pastis LJ?


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## Howard i know (Feb 2, 2016)

Scotch089 said:


> The big goal is more mineral content/vitamins= more flavor, better nutritional value. Even just blackstrap molasses is good for high brix gardening. I feel like rols and high brix is pretty damn close to the same page. Just one is a deeper level than the other.
> 
> I am curious myself that- why not use kelp meal? (P?) And what the difference in upkeep would be vs rols? I assumed the same reamendments in rols would eventually up my brix level... in turn be "technically" brix gardening.
> 
> I'm gray too..


Isn't potassium the main form of lethal injection in the states? Can't be a good thing having too much of it swimming about in the soil.....


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 2, 2016)

I'm making a new soil mix today. My old mix contained at least 20 ingredients. I feel somewhere along the way, I had to have added too much or little of something and now I'm having issues.

I'm looking for something simple. Under 10 ingredients. Trying to keep it simple stupid. I'm not going to list everything I have but can probably make just about anything (besides exotics) 

Who here can help me out with a simple but effective mix that doesn't need a bunch of top dressings or teas. I tried looking through this thread and found it just kept getting more and more complicated. 

I know people have a simple mix that works great. 

Also, most mixes are for flower I feel, anyone have any mix they use in VEG? Or through out the whole life cycle of the plant? 

So here is what I was thinking of just doing:
1/3 peat
1/3 EWC
1/3 perlite 

This will be my base for VEG in 1 gallons. When they go to FLOWER, I switch to 5 gallons (I have height restrictions) and can use an amended soil mix that I will be "cooking" for about a month.

So I'm looking for thoughts on this simple VEG mix and looking for and new FLOWER mix. Thanks and appreciate the comments guys!


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 2, 2016)

Forgot to mention. Once they go to 5's they will finish and then that will be what I use for my ROLS, in case that wasn't obvious


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## DonBrennon (Feb 2, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I'm making a new soil mix today. My old mix contained at least 20 ingredients. I feel somewhere along the way, I had to have added too much or little of something and now I'm having issues.
> 
> I'm looking for something simple. Under 10 ingredients. Trying to keep it simple stupid. I'm not going to list everything I have but can probably make just about anything (besides exotics)
> 
> ...


I'm by far an expert and I'm sure someone more organically experienced will help out, but I feel that you are asking a lot of a soil mix to sustain a plant for 2.5 - 4 months in 5 gal of soil, without topdressing or some nutritional supplement


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 2, 2016)

I personally do, do top dressings and some compost tea. Just know I have read people that don't bother with it or only use popcorn sprouts as an example.

The example just get overwhelmimg. You start to question if your method is right. 

What is right? 

Lol just a confused and shockingly experienced grower. Been doing this for years and I feel I'm loosing a handle on what I know. Things that always worked are just not now so figured I'd start fresh and relearn some stuff along the way. 

Couldn't tell you why I added all 20 ingredients. Just followed a recipe a long time ago and made some additions and subtractions. 

Oh and I've read a lot of this thread. There are over 7000 messages btw. If anyone has any pages they have saved for reference I'd truly appreciate it.

Now I'm just a stoned, confused cannabis grower lol I'll stop ranting.


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## DonBrennon (Feb 2, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I personally do, do top dressings and some compost tea. Just know I have read people that don't bother with it or only use popcorn sprouts as an example.
> 
> The example just get overwhelmimg. You start to question if your method is right.
> 
> ...


I totally understand where you're coming from, so much information and some of it conflicting...............but, (and I'm sure you've already read this) 5 gal is pretty much considered to be the very minimum in rols. If you can find a way to increase the pot size without it affecting your height restrictions, I think you'd find the whole thing a lot more forgiving and rewarding.

Oh.........and I'm not dissing on 5 gals, I'm gonna do a run in them soon, but I will be using topdress & tea's to get them through and the plants will be short flowering pure indica's which I'm not growing for yield, more pheno hunting and breeding/seed production.

hahaha.....I'm stoned too.......enjoy............oh, and you can't beat a good rant now and then, blows a few cobwebs off pmsl


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## elkamino (Feb 2, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> If anyone has any pages they have saved for reference I'd truly appreciate it.


Page 1 of this thread, posts by OP Headtreep and Cann. Lots of answers about natural soil with a focus on keepin it simple/local/natural.


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## 4ftRoots (Feb 2, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Forgot to mention. Once they go to 5's they will finish and then that will be what I use for my ROLS, in case that wasn't obvious


If you want a perfect water only mix:

Mix soil according to cootz recipe posted by Cann or someone else.

Top dress at beginning of flower with 2 inch of worm compost and 25% of the reammend amount for your soil size minus alfalfa. I use kelp, crab, neem, greensand, and half of 25% of the amount of gypsum. This is required in my soils, but I veg from seed in final container.

Top dress half way through flower with 2 inch of worm compost. You can add 25% of kelp, crab, and half gypsum if you want but I don't find I need to in larger pots. I run 35 gallons. You will need to in the 5 gallon.

At the end of flower mix half the amount of nutrients you used to build the soil with some worm compost and let it break down or plant away. This is the simplest it can get. Unless you use FPE.


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## littlejacob (Feb 2, 2016)

Bonjour
Ok so you say 5gl is the minimum for rols (sorry for the second L)
But you run 35gl too...!?!
The thing with rols is you can't transplant in bigger pot...you need to start in final one!...and large pot can't go in my small vegg room...so I will have a "half rols" vegg in new soil and bloom in reamended one...!
So I guess 7/8gl will be good
CU


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## DonBrennon (Feb 3, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Ok so you say 5gl is the minimum for rols (sorry for the second L)
> But you run 35gl too...!?!
> The thing with rols is you can't transplant in bigger pot...you need to start in final one!...and large pot can't go in my small vegg room...so I will have a "half rols" vegg in new soil and bloom in reamended one...!
> ...


It's said that it is better to start in final pots, but it's totally impracticle for most people's circumstances. I always start seeds in tiny pots and cuttings in root riot cubes, then transplant up to about 1.5 liters for 2-3 weeks, then into final pots. You do get a little transplant shock, but that can be minimised with careful transplanting and not allowing the plant to become root bound


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## littlejacob (Feb 3, 2016)

Bonjour
I always have nice looking plants the day after transplant...never saw fluffy plants after repot...I am very gentle with her...no roots stressed or breaked!
But sometimes you are too "busy"(test the new crop is what I call "busy"...lol!)and you let your timer set to 12/12...I hate myself...and the plants who were ssupposed to vegg...start to bloom so yesterday I was pissed...so back to 18/6 and cross fingers...we will see how long it will take to reverse it...too long but it is 
my fault!(I just go to see her once a week in vegg...and as I said I have been veeeery busy those days...lol!)
Thank you @DonBrennon ...I will do like this!
Vegg: soil bag plus coco with tricho 20% and ewc 20%...and bloom in rols and I topdress with 50% of the previous amendments mix with fresh ewc and soil + coco...but how much?
And how large is the piece of roots you extract from the soil...is it bigger than the first pot size?
CU


----------



## DonBrennon (Feb 3, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> And how large is the piece of roots you extract from the soil...is it bigger than the first pot size?
> CU


I'm growing in 20gal fabric pots and when I've busted the soil up to re-amend, I've found that I'll get fine roots all the way to the full extent of the container, but the thicker roots stop at around 2-3" in from the sides. Because of the extra space for roots and air-pruning, you don't get the circling of roots you would in a smaller plastic container and I've found I don't get a dense/concentrated root ball as such. And because I have a thick layer of mulch, there are roots right up to the surface of the soil, I'm always really gentle when pulling the mulch back for a look because of this.(don't wanna damage them roots lol)



littlejacob said:


> Vegg: soil bag plus coco with tricho 20% and ewc 20%...and bloom in rols and I topdress with 50% of the previous amendments mix with fresh ewc and soil + coco...but how much?
> CU


Are you talking about topdressing No Till to re-amend?

I'm at the end of a run in ROLS now and will be going no till for the first time, so I'm no expert on this, but this is what I'm doing.

I've cut the old plants at the base, I plan to pull the mulch back, cut/dig a hole next to the old stem just a little bigger than the pots I've got the next plants growing in, line that hole with a mix of used soil/mycos/wormcasts, pop the new plant in and pull the mulch back over.

After a week or so of acclimatizing the their new environment, I'll topdress with a wormcast/amendment mix.

I guessed roughly how much wormcasts I'd need for a 1-2" topdress, mixed in amendments at half original quantities, as you're doing, I also mixed about 5L of cannabis trim and a few handfulls of oatmeal, wet it with some lacto serum and it's now been cooking for 4 weeks, it got real warm the first week.


----------



## Blunted 4 lyfe (Feb 5, 2016)

I just finished my first run on SS now I started my 2nd run and looking to re-amend the soil from my 1st run I've read so much that now I'm more conflicted than before. I thought that I had it down pack at first, just re-amend with half of my original ingredients with just 1 more ingredient in that mix (the roots of my 1st run, after I brew a tea with those roots for my current grow, read it was good for veg). My first batch of SS was small (10 gallons) am using grow bags ...Walmart... 4 plants ... Same as the first. 25% Roots Organic soil, 75% SS layered, SS on bottom and Roots on top I since read that layering is bs, but what do I know. I've picked up Neem Seed Meal, kelp meal and Crab shell in the mean time I was planning to do teas with them, but I'm wondering if I should re-amend with it? I did use molasses and fish fertilizer and top dressed with SS at beginning of flower on my 1st run, I also just finished building a worm bin out of totes, figured I have 2-3 months before harvesting some ewc.

What really is the proper way to re-amend used soil? Thanks.

B4L


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## Michigan Med Creamery (Feb 5, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> The clue is in the thread title, rols, he just added an extra 'l'


Thanks maman! Braindead sometimes..., rols... actually first time seeing it written like that from this title. Is there a difference in rols and composting?


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## Michigan Med Creamery (Feb 5, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I personally do, do top dressings and some compost tea. Just know I have read people that don't bother with it or only use popcorn sprouts as an example.
> 
> The example just get overwhelmimg. You start to question if your method is right.
> 
> ...


I agree with the change in how u have to address the new style grow or at least change some things up... and obvious we on right track, im freshenin my knowledge on the subject as well... but to the fact of things are lil different now is commercial pressure to buy buy buy to sustain... sustain what... a plant genetic that is far from landrace... or even stabilized enuff to not hermie on the slightest stress factor... moxie... cali connect they so high priced and dropping 1 outta 25 herms... wtf is that... and they charge 105 for five beans lmao... the soil is thee most important thing imho... but good genetics can go a long way... imho have a good one


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## Michigan Med Creamery (Feb 5, 2016)

I also wanted to mention... chicken dung will break down pretty fast and gets hot real quik.. not as fast as bat guano of course... but if doin an outdoor compost i like to "seed" my mix with my backyard chickens dung, i use cement slab with hardware cloth box on top about 5×5×5, 3 total boxes, i cook for a whole season before use... rotate box to box as breakdown occurs... i use everything in my mix besides high protein and bones... unless bones grinded, which never have...kitchen scraps... yard waste, i know the sources for everything that goes in... after soil is ready i still cook it in pizza brick oven outdoors to further guarentee no germination or molds/mildews or any other negative factor is double dealt with... i wet my mix in summer often to help with break down... if anyone wants specifics on setup or other technical tips or general bs hit me up pm.


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## Mohican (Feb 5, 2016)

Worm compost tea seems to be a good way to add the best stuff back to tired soil.


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## rynoponic (Feb 6, 2016)

Can anyone shed some light on this for me, I have some aloe vera leaf powder that i got from mountain rose herbs. I was wondering if anyone knew or could make a educated guess if i could use this the sameway you would fresh aloe or the 200x powder? If so at what rate etc would be a major help for me thanks


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## ForRealz (Feb 8, 2016)

This thread is teeming w high levels of organic activity, I dig it, and Im glad to have located such fertile ground...


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## DonBrennon (Feb 10, 2016)

I know this has nothing to do with rols, but this thread seems to be the heart of our community, so it seemed the best place to ask. I've got a couple of projects going on and I'm thinking of starting a journal, does anybody in here read the journals? or keep one?

Or would I just be better off starting a thread, "Brennons bonkers indoor organic gardens", in the organics forum? 

I've never really bothered with the journals because it was specifically the organics and rols forum/thread which lead me to RIU and have never felt the need to go anywhere else.

It'll be as much for my benefit, keeping record of things and to get helpful input, as anything else. I don't really want to get involved in all the trolls I've seen in the other forums. You seem to find a more civilized gardener in the organics forums I've noticed (Those led forums are fucking brutal, they all love a good arguement pmsl)


----------



## ForRealz (Feb 10, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I know this has nothing to do with rols, but this thread seems to be the heart of our community, so it seemed the best place to ask. I've got a couple of projects going on and I'm thinking of starting a journal, does anybody in here read the journals? or keep one?
> 
> Or would I just be better off starting a thread, "Brennons bonkers indoor organic gardens", in the organics forum?
> 
> ...


FWIW, I have, personally, not read any journals...not sure why...maybe I never really stumbled into that area, IDK...

I def like the title of your potential new thread, sounds pretty bada$$ !!! Id say, if you approach your new thread in the spirit of say this thread, then there will be enough cool peeps on there to help fend off trollz... Good luck, Id check it!

Also, the Bodhi thread is a pretty chill gathering of cool peeps!


----------



## DonBrennon (Feb 10, 2016)

ForRealz said:


> FWIW, I have, personally, not read any journals...not sure why...maybe I never really stumbled into that area, IDK...
> 
> I def like the title of your potential new thread, sounds pretty bada$$ !!! Id say, if you approach your new thread in the spirit of say this thread, then there will be enough cool peeps on there to help fend off trollz... Good luck, Id check it!
> 
> Also, the Bodhi thread is a pretty chill gathering of cool peeps!


Thanks Bro, appreciated..............the Bodhi thread is one of the few non-organic threads I've actually read a bit of and I agree, good bunch, I do like the look of their genetics as well, wanna try the SSDD, but I missed it last time it became available.


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## ForRealz (Feb 10, 2016)

No prob, bro! I got SSDD in vault...

If you still interested in SSDD, JBC has it in stock for $77 and Buy 2 Bodhi get 1 pack Free...they good to go for sure, if u in states, 3-4 day delivery.

https://www.jamesbeancompany.com/breeders/shop-bodhi-seeds


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## DonBrennon (Feb 10, 2016)

thanks, that's a damn good deal, just been having a look, I'm not in US and can't see any info on international shipping, gonna have a go though.


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## ForRealz (Feb 10, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> thanks, that's a damn good deal, just been having a look, I'm not in US and can't see any info on international shipping, gonna have a go though.


If you have not already, email him at [email protected] ...he is usually very good at getting back in timely manner...Take care!


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## DonBrennon (Feb 10, 2016)

ForRealz said:


> No prob, bro! I got SSDD in vault...
> 
> If you still interested in SSDD, JBC has it in stock for $77 and Buy 2 Bodhi get 1 pack Free...they good to go for sure, if u in states, 3-4 day delivery.
> 
> https://www.jamesbeancompany.com/breeders/shop-bodhi-seeds


just tried checking out and after entering all my personal information, got this notice

"By continuing, I agree that my information will be transferred to the United States.", AARRRRRGHH, in my mind that means........."we are passing your info directly to the DEA!!!!" and them fuckers can get you anywhere for anything, if they want to. Obviously my info's gotta go to the states, that's where I'm ordering from, why've I got to make what is basically a legal agreement?

I may be being paranoid and I'm certainly not questioning the integrity of the company you recommend, I just don't like anything to do with US customs, I don't mind ordering from anywhere in Europe, our customs ain't strict on shit like that, even though the end product is highly illegal. I've had seeds ordered from the US not get through, on your side, before now and don't wanna repeat the experience

sorry if I've come across ungrateful, didn't mean to

peace bro


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## ForRealz (Feb 10, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> just tried checking out and after entering all my personal information, got this notice
> 
> "By continuing, I agree that my information will be transferred to the United States.", AARRRRRGHH, in my mind that means........."we are passing your info directly to the DEA!!!!" and them fuckers can get you anywhere for anything, if they want to. Obviously my info's gotta go to the states, that's where I'm ordering from, why've I got to make what is basically a legal agreement?
> 
> ...


Word. Wouldn't hurt to email him bout yo concerns... I oftentimes be wearing my tinfoil hat too, but smthn tells me it wouldn't be in HIS best interest to share anything with D.estroy E.vil A.gency as canna still Sched 1 at Fed level...


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## DonBrennon (Feb 10, 2016)

ForRealz said:


> Word. Wouldn't hurt to email him bout yo concerns... I oftentimes be wearing my tinfoil hat too, but smthn tells me it wouldn't be in HIS best interest to share anything with D.estroy E.vil A.gency as canna still Sched 1 at Fed level...


Hahaha, I'll drop him a line tomorrow, it's getting late here and I'm a little too baked to do it now, pmsl


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## ForRealz (Feb 10, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Hahaha, I'll drop him a line tomorrow, it's getting late here and I'm a little too baked to do it now, pmsl


Cool, cool. I'll let the good folks get back to ROLS after this...

Unless you are totally averse to US based banks for your aforementioned reasons, then you could also check out Greatlakesgenetics or seedvaultofca cuz they both got SSDD and doin same 2 get 1 deal...


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## littlejacob (Feb 10, 2016)

Bonjour
I guess the attitude seed bank and the choice seed bank have the offer on bodhi seed too and it is some UK seeds bank!
CU


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## ForRealz (Feb 10, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> I guess the attitude seed bank and the choice seed bank have the offer on bodhi seed too and it is some UK seeds bank!
> CU


Good lookin out! They outta stock on SSDD though...


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## littlejacob (Feb 11, 2016)

Bonjour
How many oyster shell (crushed by myself...but I was thinking about using the same thing dentist use...wizzzz you know what I mean but bigger to make a powder instead of pieces...it will take longer but would be better I guess! ) I will need for about 30gl (100L) of used soil...
Same for alfalfa/kelp I guess ewc is always good to add but is it always 20/25%?
I found some humic/fulvic liquid...Should I use it often?...during vegg bloom both?
May I use it with molasses 1/week?
I will try to improve my soil the best I can all along the years...thanks to you all here!
As French citizen I know very well how important can be the soil...a wineyard can produce 1000 $ bottle wine and is neighborhood 20 $ one...I saw it...just 6meters (20ft) farther it was a different soil...they analyze the soil and where it is expensive there was the sea thousands years before and they found a lots of fossilized crabs shrimps fish shells everywhere but not on the other side where there was no sea...so yes soil is important! 
I am going to try to grow out 1 or 2 plants in the spot soil...just the natural soil from the forest...far from civilization no pollution...maybe a mix of soil some from the place I will grow some from under some oak trees more black and some from near the river...and nothing more...I don't care about weight...I want to try something very natural to compare the taste!
Now that my cheese cure a bit it is like eating a candy...every time I open the jar I smile...it was a very nice weed but since I switched to amendments it is more than very nice...only a tightvac can transport this one (4 zipbag and it is always smelling weed around you...lol...I opened the tvac in a friend house 5mn later his neighbor ring the bell to smoke with us...too smelly...but so good!)
CU


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## GreenSanta (Feb 15, 2016)

got myself an aloe arborescens plant, it is said to contain 200% more phytotheraputic compounds than Aloe Vera. How good will it be for cloning gel / foliar spray ? I also got a reitzii which I think is just a rare useless aloe, they came together...


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## DonBrennon (Feb 15, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> got myself an aloe arborescens plant, it is said to contain 200% more phytotheraputic compounds than Aloe Vera. How good will it be for cloning gel / foliar spray ? I also got a reitzii which I think is just a rare useless aloe, they came together...


Can't wait to hear some feed back on it's effects, sounds promising


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## GreenSanta (Feb 15, 2016)

I also got reitzii aloe, not a lot of info online about it but it has really thick leaves so im gonna try it out too. I think the downside with arborescens grows very slowly according to the lady i bought it from, she said the plant is 8 years old! anyway im gonna put it in the budding room under proper lighting and see what happens lol

*03) J Agric Food Chem. 1999 Sep;47(9):3702-5. * Aroma chemicals isolated and identified from leaves of Aloe arborescens Mill. Var. Natalensis Berger. Umano K, Nakahara K, Shoji A, Shibamoto T. Department of Environmental Toxicology, University of California, Davis, California 95616, USA. Extracts from leaves of aloe (Aloe arborescens Mill. var. natalensis Berger) were obtained using two methods: steam distillation under reduced pressure followed by dichloromethane extraction (DRP) and simultaneous purging and extraction (SPE). A total of 123 aroma chemicals were identified in the extracts obtained by both methods using gas chromatography and gas chromatography/mass spectrometry. There were 42 alcohols, 23 terpenoids, 21 aldehydes, 9 esters, 8 ketones, 6 acids, 5 phenols, and 9 miscellaneous compounds. The major aroma constituents of this extract by DRP were (Z)-3-hexenol (29.89%), (Z)-3-hexenal (18.86%), (E)-hexenal (7.31%), 4-methyl-3-pentenol (5.66%), and butanol (4.29%). The major aroma constituents of this extract by SPE were (E)-2-hexenal (45.46%), (Z)-3-hexenal (32.12%), hexanal (9.14%), (Z)-3-hexenol (1.60%), and 3-pentanone (1.41%). Terpenoids were also found as one of the major constituents. The fresh green note of aloe leaves is due to the presence of these C(6) alcohols and aldehydes as well as terpenoids. PMID: 10552708 [PubMed – indexed for MEDLINE]


----------



## Mohican (Feb 16, 2016)

Got any pics of the Aloe plants?


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## hyroot (Feb 16, 2016)

There's over 3,000 species of aloe


----------



## kkt3 (Feb 17, 2016)

Kind Sir said:


> So Ive hear people dont like perlite, so what are your favorite aeration additions? I dont like breaking up lava rock, and read using100% rice hulls can be problematic for whatever reason.
> 
> Id like to add rotten wood chunks, whats the besr way to make that?


Hey Kind Sir, I went into the back yard and pulled off some rotting wood from a log. Then I broke it up into smaller pieces and added it to my soil. I believe it was Grease that said he uses rotting wood in his mixes.


----------



## 4ftRoots (Feb 17, 2016)

kkt3 said:


> Hey Kind Sir, I went into the back yard and pulled off some rotting wood from a log. Then I broke it up into smaller pieces and added it to my soil. I believe it was Grease that said he uses rotting wood in his mixes.


I found that the wood will hold a lot of water and a lot of air. But it will go away eventually, so it isn't a permanent aeration. A cheap cheap permanent aeration is OilDri at walmart. You can look on that bag, it is 100% calcined clay, Turface basically. Greatest stuff out there.


----------



## littlejacob (Feb 17, 2016)

Bonjour
Is there anything I can use on this pic?
  
Thanks
CU


----------



## DonBrennon (Feb 17, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Is there anything I can use on this pic?
> View attachment 3610474 View attachment 3610475
> Thanks
> CU


Bonjour...............you're in France, is that correct?.................have you not got nettles, dandelions, horsetail, even wild comfrey?..............have you looked into French organic farming/gardening methods? They are VERY good and worth researching.

There's nothing there I instantly recognise but I'm no botanist. You could make a good compost if you ripped it all up, including the brown leaves underneath and put it in a big pile, lol.


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## littlejacob (Feb 17, 2016)

Bonjour
Yes...Blue white red...french!
Yes I am in S/E with a Mediterranean climate so a lots of plants...dandelions everywhere...horsetail I remember I saw some but I need to find out where it was...nettle I know there is real and false nettle and I am not sure how I can recognize it...and comfrey I should find a pic as I don't know how it looks like!?!
Is it true weed like the same soil as bramble (wild blackberry!)
Thanks
CU


----------



## littlejacob (Feb 17, 2016)

Ha yes I look for something with a lot of K!
CU


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 19, 2016)

Ok so it's me again. I have learned so much since my original post....like a lot 

Finding buildasoil.com may be life altering for me right now. The sheer amount of information is amazing and with its no bullshit/posting results attitude, it makes for an excellent read for anyone who is having trouble growing and not understanding the problem.

I've been growing for years and just following recipes that get a lot of praise. This is fine for most people but when problems happen....that recipe doesn't tell you what's wrong with it! I've troubleshooter just about everything I can think of and have come to the conclusion that the problem lies on my soil. 

I have done subcools supersoil, TLO and recycling. 

*just look at the blog part of builasoil.com...you will find out why supersoil and the revs TLO method are all good starting points but are way off. Some of the things don't even make sense to do and we are all put trying to source these exotic amendments ect..sigh...just thought I'd share that 

Well Jeremy at buildasoil has a mentor named clackamas coot. I'm sure all of you have heard of him since his recipe is basically on the first page of this thread if not word for word. 

Now that I'm back on track and understanding things a lot clearer, I'm wondering if anyone knows of where you can find more of Clackamas Coots information. Through Google I have found some things but there isn't much besides his soil recipe. 

Anyone have a spreadsheet or notepad or word doc that may have a compilation of his info? 

I'm specifically looking for his composting method and what he uses as a worm farm for vermicomposting. 

Any sourced besides buildasoil for his info in general would be great! Anyone help me out?


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## bizfactory (Feb 19, 2016)

icmag organic section but he doesn't post there anymore. A lof of his quotes and info get passed around there quite frequently.

You should also check out the Adam Dunn show, clack was on there a few weeks ago with Jeremy. Good listen for sure.


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2016)

coot is my friend


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## GreenSanta (Feb 19, 2016)

is buildasoil your site Rrog?


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## Rrog (Feb 19, 2016)

Lol. Nope. I'm much more interested in sourcing locally, and am just starting my list of local ingredients. 

Biochar is a biggie, as I think it can double as large aeration instead of lava rock


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## greasemonkeymann (Feb 19, 2016)

kkt3 said:


> Hey Kind Sir, I went into the back yard and pulled off some rotting wood from a log. Then I broke it up into smaller pieces and added it to my soil. I believe it was Grease that said he uses rotting wood in his mixes.


works extremely well to retain water, and I imagine it works very well to house microbial populations too, sorta akin to biochar.
The other thing is I imagine it to be loaded with beneficial indigenous microbes as well.
In the summer time I add more to the soil to help with water retention.
Depending on it's level of degradation it may or may not rob a lil nitrogen form your soil when added, so it's good to "charge" it with a soluble form of nitrogen.
VERY good to add to the soil though.
It sorta disappears after about two or three runs, turning into pretty much pure humus


----------



## Mohican (Feb 19, 2016)

What is your experience with ash from a fire pit?


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 20, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Ok so it's me again. I have learned so much since my original post....like a lot
> 
> Finding buildasoil.com may be life altering for me right now. The sheer amount of information is amazing and with its no bullshit/posting results attitude, it makes for an excellent read for anyone who is having trouble growing and not understanding the problem.
> 
> ...


Coot is on instagram quite frequently.


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## hyroot (Feb 20, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Ok so it's me again. I have learned so much since my original post....like a lot
> 
> Finding buildasoil.com may be life altering for me right now. The sheer amount of information is amazing and with its no bullshit/posting results attitude, it makes for an excellent read for anyone who is having trouble growing and not understanding the problem.
> 
> ...



The Adam Dunn show a few eps back they had coots on Jeremy Silva (bas) on. Get the live stream app and you can watch old episode's of the Adam Dunn show on there.


----------



## GreenSanta (Feb 20, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> Is there anything I can use on this pic?
> View attachment 3610474 View attachment 3610475
> Thanks
> CU


I think I may see mallow, you can make home made marshmallow with the flowers (when in bloom) and the other is for sure chickweed, edible, delicious, nutritious. Free food right there. Is it lupins in the background? they do fix nitrogen.


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## GreenSanta (Feb 20, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Bonjour...............you're in France, is that correct?.................have you not got nettles, dandelions, horsetail, even wild comfrey?..............have you looked into French organic farming/gardening methods? They are VERY good and worth researching.
> 
> There's nothing there I instantly recognise but I'm no botanist. You could make a good compost if you ripped it all up, including the brown leaves underneath and put it in a big pile, lol.


 he is in France, yes to everything, especially dandelions, french chefs love to cook with it.



hyroot said:


> The Adam Dunn show a few eps back they had coots on Jeremy Silva (bas) on. Get the live stream app and you can watch old episode's of the Adam Dunn show on there.


Can you post a link to this podcast? I looked on google quickly and got side tracked... or the name of the episode. Thanks


----------



## GreenSanta (Feb 20, 2016)

Rrog said:


> Lol. Nope. I'm much more interested in sourcing locally, and am just starting my list of local ingredients.
> 
> Biochar is a biggie, as I think it can double as large aeration instead of lava rock


same here, nothing against people that can afford all those goodies, but for me its all about making vermicompost now. I am looking forward to see how your biochar performs, at what ratio will you use it in your mix? I think the thing with biochar is patience, best thing to do would be to create a very rich huge compost pile in the corner of your property on top of a mat of crushed biochar, forget about it for years except maybe adding nutrients, I think it really needs a lot of time to charge. Please keep us posted on your trials.


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## littlejacob (Feb 20, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I think I may see mallow, you can make home made marshmallow with the flowers (when in bloom) and the other is for sure chickweed, edible, delicious, nutritious. Free food right there. Is it lupins in the background? they do fix nitrogen.


Bonjour
Thank you very much! 
I wasn't able to put some name on those hemps...now I will translate and find pics and find info on those!...cool!
CU


----------



## hyroot (Feb 20, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> he is in France, yes to everything, especially dandelions, french chefs love to cook with it.
> 
> 
> Can you post a link to this podcast? I looked on google quickly and got side tracked... or the name of the episode. Thanks


Livestream: http://livestre.am/5i2ho


You have to use the live stream app to see archived shows. I don't know the podcast link.


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## GreenSanta (Feb 21, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Livestream: http://livestre.am/5i2ho
> 
> 
> You have to use the live stream app to see archived shows. I don't know the podcast link.


thanks its going to be very interesting, i started watching it. hey, do everybody here really spray for pests? whether neem oil or anything else, any other grower on this thread who like me use beneficial insects for IPM?


----------



## DonBrennon (Feb 21, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> thanks its going to be very interesting, i started watching it. hey, do everybody here really spray for pests? whether neem oil or anything else, any other grower on this thread who like me use beneficial insects for IPM?


I've stopped using neem oil as a foliar and I do use 'Bennies' for pest predation, but I also use an home made immunity boost/pest repellant, probably not as often as I should, seeing as I've noticed a small number of thrip returning.

I don't apply them as often as you, I'm hoping for once a year, but I actually don't mind the odd pest. I'd like to get a balance (probably too idealistic), where I've got just enough prey to keep the predators breeding.

I've got these in the post, due to arrive very soon:

Description: Amblyseius System (Sprinkler) - Pack Size:25,000
Item Price: £ 9.20
Qty: 1
Total: £ 9.20

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description: Yellow Sticky Traps (Medium 24.5 x 10cm) - Sizeack of 10
Item Price: £ 3.50
Qty: 1
Total: £ 3.50

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Description: Amblyseius californicus (Sprinkler) - Pack Size:2,000
Item Price: £ 13.75
Qty: 1
Total: £ 13.75


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## DonBrennon (Feb 21, 2016)

This is what I'm dealing with, you can't see them with the naked eye, this is probably about 0.5mm long, the leaf hairs are nearly as long. The give away sign of their presence is small silvery patches on the leaf surface


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## Rrog (Feb 21, 2016)

What beneficial insects for IPM?


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## GreenSanta (Feb 21, 2016)

Rrog said:


> What beneficial insects for IPM?


ladybugs, I have been trying to rear them indoor but not much luck so far, the larvae are the ones that would really take care of pests... anyway I keep buying ladybugs (9000 at a time)

besides that, the ones I buy regularly are amblesyum fallacis, persimillis, nematodes, I tried the mesoseiulus longipes, with great results but they are so expensive!! They are said to be better for dryer environment. Also used cucumeris many times for Thrips (worked very well)

I used to be fine with ladybugs alone but they dont fully take care of pests, they almost farm them. Its ok for most pest except it doesnt work well for spider mites because of what they do to your plants in budding. So now its a matter of figuring out how to keep the beneficials alive and what bug eat what bugs (like I often wonder if my ladybugs eat my benes)

So anyway, its a work in progress for me, the reason why I have had to spend so much in the recent while is I was so busy in the Summer and the spider mites got a little out of control, I should have hit them hard right from the start.

I want to get to a point where I buy them once a month, depending on the pests in the garden. Anyway, have not sprayed in years and I have a healthy looking garden, I think next week will be the last time I order bugs bi-weekly I ll be back to once a month. Also I am only starting to make vermicompost, as I start to produce enough I believe I will have less pest pressure.


----------



## GreenSanta (Feb 21, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> This is what I'm dealing with, you can't see them with the naked eye, this is probably about 0.5mm long, the leaf hairs are nearly as long. The give away sign of their presence is small silvery patches on the leaf surfaceView attachment 3613176


so visible with the naked eye, you gotta look better !! I have never had a pest living on a marijuana plant that I couldnt see with naked eye.


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## GreenSanta (Feb 21, 2016)

It would be great to have more people here experimenting with beneficial, I have over spent a lot of money with my mistakes. Something I just started doing, if I order ladybugs (ladybugs are once every 2 months about) with something like fallacis, I mist the bottom part of my plants, release the fallacis in most pots (my plants are all touching each other so bugs can move freely from one to the next) , KEEP the ladybugs for a day or 2 in the fridge (maybe I should try a little longer) and then I release the ladybugs, I feel this way the fallacis have had time to find a place to hide from the ladybugs and start eating the mites, that is if the ladybugs eat fallacis, I cant see why they wouldnt, I would, looks better than a spider mite lol.


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 21, 2016)

I can see thrips with my naked eye. I currently am battling them. Never had them before. I tried a couple organic ways to kill them to no avail. (Neem oil, organicide) tried spinosad on one plant to see how it went and havnt seen one since but only been 4 days. I've read there are two sides to spinosad, good and bad but from what I read, it seem to only harm certain bug exoskeleton and not microbes (some how) 

I've kept this plant as a tester and plan to start fresh w new soil anyways (peat based instead of bagged soil base) so if it does harm microbes, I can live with that since this soil will become a top layer in my backyard and/or flower garden soil (not cannabis flowers)

Even though you say you don't mind them as a balance which is fine, whatever you want to do obviously, just saying they can really get a hold of a garden if you don't do anything, kind if like spider mites with much lesser negative affects. I've yet to see them really harm any of my mature plants but they sure are making cloning a bitch right now!


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 21, 2016)

@hyroot Thanks for the reply about coot, I watched his shows that had coot on them. Just wanted to see if there was more out there that I havnt found yet

To the other guy, sorry didn't see your name, the Adam dunn show with coot is also on youtube, each video is roughly 2 hours. I think you could fadt forward a whole hour before the useful info comes on.

buildasoil.com also has jeremy ( silva if I'm not mistaken) who knows a lot of coots methods. There he has videos and recipes for tons or organic stuff...for me, this has been an amazing source for foliar feeding, top dresses, how to use aloe, list goes on and on!


----------



## goodjoint (Feb 21, 2016)

Hey all! Need some help!

I mixed up a batch of soil 2 days ago and I just took a look at it - it went anaerobic for sure. It smells like death.

I've mixed up soil 5 times before and never had this happen to me so I don't really know what I should do.

I just emptied the 30 gallon Rubbermaid full of my soul mix and spread it out on a tarp. I added a bit more perlite and I'm letting it sit.

Is this the best course of action? Or should I just mix a new batch and toss this one. I have plenty more amendments and compost to make another batch. Should I wait it out and see if the smell goes away?

I plan on cooking in fabric pots from here on out. 

Thanks!!


----------



## elkamino (Feb 21, 2016)

goodjoint said:


> Hey all! Need some help!
> 
> I mixed up a batch of soil 2 days ago and I just took a look at it - it went anaerobic for sure. It smells like death.
> 
> ...


Spreading it out and letting as much surface area as possible be exposed to air is a good move. You should be alright, just give it a few days to get back to aerobic and stir it as needed to keep soil moisture even-ish. I've done this, similar situation, and it turned out fine. Do you think you added too much water? Seal it off too completely? 

Good luck.


----------



## GreenSanta (Feb 21, 2016)

you probably over watered, I have done dry mixes in the past to water whenever I was ready to cook and to my surprise their was enough moisture in the mix to create a white film of fungi like it was cooking already. That said, I have also overwatered and used the stinky mix anyway without any negative side effects, now I just keep it on native soil with a tarp on top, never goes anaerobic. Anyway, dont stress it too much...


----------



## st0wandgrow (Feb 21, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Ok so it's me again. I have learned so much since my original post....like a lot
> 
> Finding buildasoil.com may be life altering for me right now. The sheer amount of information is amazing and with its no bullshit/posting results attitude, it makes for an excellent read for anyone who is having trouble growing and not understanding the problem.
> 
> ...


I've made a point of reading as many of coots words as I could over the years. He's a very intelligent guy, and a great resource. Rrog is the RIU version of coot IMO. Pay attention to what those two say and you'll do well.

As for coots approach to composting, he was always an advocate of feeding whatever dry meals you add to your soil to the worms. Single best piece of advice that I incorporated in to my routine. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Those meals are useless until broken down, and each of them mineralize at a different rate, and impact the soil differently while being processed. What better way to make plant available all of the goodies we add to our soil than to toss some in to a bin crawling with hungry microbes?

At this point I don't mess with any teas. Just water, and a top dress or two of supercharged worm poo along the way. My garden is so simple now. Auto pilote


----------



## littlejacob (Feb 21, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I've made a point of reading as many of coots words as I could over the years. He's a very intelligent guy, and a great resource. Rrog is the RIU version of coot IMO. Pay attention to what those two say and you'll do well.
> 
> As for coots approach to composting, he was always an advocate of feeding whatever dry meals you add to your soil to the worms. Single best piece of advice that I incorporated in to my routine. If you think about it, it makes perfect sense. Those meals are useless until broken down, and each of them mineralize at a different rate, and impact the soil differently while being processed. What better way to make plant available all of the goodies we add to our soil than to toss some in to a bin crawling with hungry microbes?
> 
> At this point I don't mess with any teas. Just water, and a top dress or two of supercharged worm poo along the way. My garden is so simple now. Auto pilote


Bonjour
You really just add ewc in topdress for vegg and bloom?
I am really interested...atm it is soilbag coco ewc and batguano plus molasses and tap water! 
And now that I saw that it is easy to diy a worm bin with some fish package (the big long one) I am going to make one soon!
So I guess it depend on how you feed them to get different NPK valor!?!
Or do you give them everything you throw away?(except for the thing they can't eat!)
CU


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> You really just add ewc in topdress for vegg and bloom?
> I am really interested...atm it is soilbag coco ewc and batguano plus molasses and tap water!
> And now that I saw that it is easy to diy a worm bin with some fish package (the big long one) I am going to make one soon!
> ...


Yep, that's it.

In addition to the dry meals, the worms also eat all of our veggie and fruit scraps. I also put my cannabis fan leaves in there after harvest as a top layer...but they get devoured too within a few weeks.

My base also consists of leaf mold. There is a substantial amount of NPK value in leaf litter, so I would imagine that helps as well.


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2016)

So that leaf mold is workin out OK? How much are you using as a % of total volume, do you suppose? 10%? 30%?


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> So that leaf mold is workin out OK? How much are you using as a % of total volume, do you suppose? 10%? 30%?


Yep, I love it Rrog. Such a nice consistency.

I've been experimenting a bit with it. It accounts for anywhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of my base. I'm using a bit more leaf mold, and a bit less ewc in the initial mix knowing that I will top dress with pure ewc a couple times along the way. I had issues with my soil getting too thick and muddy with all of the castings, so I'm using a bit less now out of the gate.


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## elkamino (Feb 22, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Yep, I love it Rrog. Such a nice consistency.
> 
> I've been experimenting a bit with it. It accounts for anywhere between 1/3 to 1/2 of my base. I'm using a bit more leaf mold, and a bit less ewc in the initial mix knowing that I will top dress with pure ewc a couple times along the way. I had issues with my soil getting too thick and muddy with all of the castings, so I'm using a bit less now out of the gate.



I use 30% EWC (commercial, not homegrown ) in my base but have long been curious about leaf mold... 

Do you make, buy or wildcraft it? And if you harvest outdoors and bring it inside, do you have any issues with critters coming in to your indoor garden? Or does an otherwise solid indoor environment allow beneficials to maintain control over any interlopers?

I live in a sm apartment, in Anchorage, and find composting impractical right now. But I should be able to score a bunch of wild leaf mold as soon as the ground thaws in a couple months, cottonwood- and alder-based in particular. Thanks!


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2016)

@GreaseMonkeyMan has the same thought on the soup of pure castings. 

I'm building a shit ton of soil for raised vegetable beds outside. I don't have the leaf mold available, so I'll be using peat. I was going to mix 1/2 manure-based compost + 1/2 commercial (local) Castings. This compost / castings mix would = 1/3 of the soil by volume. 1/3 peat and 1/3 aeration. 

For aeration, I'm going heavy on chunky. I have big lava rock and big / small biochar. Obviously I'll N charge the biochar, but I'm grooving on the idea of more 1/2" - 1 1/2" chunks of charged biochar as an aeration amendment. 

I'd rather use leaf mold than Peat, but not this year. I'm going to try to get leaf mold going this year for next year's garden expansion.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2016)

elkamino said:


> I use 30% EWC (commercial, not homegrown ) in my base but have long been curious about leaf mold...
> 
> Do you make, buy or wildcraft it? And if you harvest outdoors and bring it inside, do you have any issues with critters coming in to your indoor garden? Or does an otherwise solid indoor environment allow beneficials to maintain control over any interlopers?
> 
> I live in a sm apartment, in Anchorage, and find composting impractical right now. But I should be able to score a bunch of wild leaf mold as soon as the ground thaws in a couple months, cottonwood- and alder-based in particular. Thanks!


I started my pile in the fall of 2014. I was using my neighbors in the interim. Mine is ready, and I've used it in the last couple batches of soil that I've made. No unwanted critters, or ill effects of any kind that I've noticed. I chose to add a good amount of N (alfalfa meal) to my pile to both speed the process up, and attract thermophilic bacteria to the pile to destroy any pathogens that may be present. So far so good!

I just take a leaf blower and blow all of my leaves in to one corner of my yard. I then run over the leaves with my lawn mower to increase surface area and break them down a bit. Wet it down, project some alfalfa meal over the pile, turn, then leave it be. 12 months later and you're left with a dark, crumbly material that makes the best medium I have ever worked with. Good water retention, but also very porous. I used to water my 10 gal containers once every 3-4 days. Now I have to water every 36-48 hours. Absent an automated watering device (like blu mats) it makes for a bit more work, but the growth and overall health of my plants has improved drastically. I'm assuming this is due to the increased oxygen to the root zone, and perhaps fungi/bacteria that colonize the leaf mold.

It's free, easy to make, and is the most environmentally friendly medium that I'm aware of. I urge everyone to try it!


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2016)

@st0wandgrow I'm really glad to hear about your success with the leaf mold. A lot more nutrients are released from leaf mold than peat when either continues to be metabolized in the pot, so your so successfully incorporating this is super exciting.

Very interesting to hear your thought that there's a big jump in aeration. Sorry if this has been covered, but are you doing hard side pails? If fabric pots, what size?

Lastly, just to confirm, maybe up to 50% of your soil by volume is leaf mold? That large starting amount allows for more generations of microbial breakdown before losing the aeration benefit, it would seem.

Sorry for all of the questions but I know you and trust your judgement on this and you're using a higher % of leaf mold than I've previously heard about which is very exciting.

I'm a huge believer in aeration, back from the days when I pumped air thru the soil. Even my outdoor raised garden beds will have soft sides of landscape fabric. Also drip lines so plenty of water for constant moistness. The constant moistness rather than wet / dry cycles is the way to go IMHO.


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 22, 2016)

Excellent comments. I'll be using leaf mold hopefully this year but it may not be ready yet.

So as far as vermicomposting. I have the worm factory 360 for now. Anyone using this small of a bin, how much food is being put in at one time and how often is that food being placed.

I read you guys sometimes take weeks to feed but that is in a large bin say over 30 gallons or more right? I domt want things to get too wet in there and also want the worms to survive and breed. 

My goal is to use the factory til it's full and also start another worm bin out of and half filled 45 gallon smart pot. When that is full I'll get another. I want to make castings on a large scale in the coming years so just trying to get on my way!


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 22, 2016)

Oh crap wrong thread sorry guys


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> @st0wandgrow I'm really glad to hear about your success with the leaf mold. A lot more nutrients are released from leaf mold than peat when either continues to be metabolized in the pot, so your so successfully incorporating this is super exciting.
> 
> Very interesting to hear your thought that there's a big jump in aeration. Sorry if this has been covered, but are you doing hard side pails? If fabric pots, what size?
> 
> ...


I'm using both fabric and plastic. Mostly fabric. Couldn't bring myself to toss the plastic buckets when I started buying the geo pots. I use 10 gal for my regular rotation plants, and 5-7 gal for new strains from seed. I just don't like to commit a bunch of soil and space to plants that may end up being males, or crap phenos.

Edit: keep in mind that I dump and re amend the soil after each run. Not sure how a no-till setup would do with my percentages...?


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2016)

So this is essentially your aeration component also. Dual duty. Are you using pumice or lava rock etc for an aeration component aside from the leaf mold? Doesn't seem like you'd need to.

So glad you tried this


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> So this is essentially your aeration component also. Dual duty. Are you using pumice or lava rock etc for an aeration component aside from the leaf mold? Doesn't seem like you'd need to.
> 
> So glad you tried this


I'm still using aeration bits. Just less of them. Of all the components of an organic soil, I never dreamed that aeration bits would be the most frustrating part...but damn! I can't for the life of me find anything decent aside from perlite. I have to drive to Lansing to get rice hulls, and that seems stupid. So I'm stuck using perlite. I've looked for years around here, and nobody carries pumice or >1" lava rock.


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## Rrog (Feb 22, 2016)

I'm going to try biochar. Chunks 1 1/2" and less. Guys are growing in crazy high % biochar - like 25% or more. Once charged, it's a neutral component and so I think would be a simple replacement for perlite and pumice. Maybe - can't see why not so far.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I'm going to try biochar. Chunks 1 1/2" and less. Guys are growing in crazy high % biochar - like 25% or more. Once charged, it's a neutral component and so I think would be a simple replacement for perlite and pumice. Maybe - can't see why not so far.


Are you going to be using the smaller drum inside the 55 gallon drum to make your bio char, or are you just using something like Cowboy brand bagged charcoal?


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## elkamino (Feb 22, 2016)

Have you considered this? I went to a local hydro store looking for rice hulls, didn't have them so I was talked into this. Its not cheap but seems to provide excellent aeration and doesn't float. Made of recycled glass and a source of silicon, plus its American made.
 

*Product Description*
Growstone GS-2 Mix This Soil Aerator is the ideal aeration component of soil mixes. Its highly porous aggregates act as air pockets significantly enhancing aeration and drainage of an sphagnum peat, coco coir or composted soil-based mix. As a result, it creates the ideal environment for your plants' root systems and leads to healthy, thriving plants. Ideal for growing a wide variety of plants including herbs, flowering and woody ornamentals, vegetables, tropical, trees and scrubs. Growstone GS-2 Mix This Soil Aerator is a sustainable alternative to perlite and other soil amendments used to improve texture and structure of soil or soilless mixes. 100% Recycled. 100% American made.


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## Rrog (Feb 23, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Are you going to be using the smaller drum inside the 55 gallon drum to make your bio char, or are you just using something like Cowboy brand bagged charcoal?


You mean pissing in a bag of charcoal? Hahahaha. Nope, I'm cooking in the barrel burners. 

@elkamino I've talked with those Growstone folks about buying pallets or 1 ton super-sacks but too much $$. That's why I'm excited about the biochar as aeration


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## bizfactory (Feb 23, 2016)

What does everyone think of adding neem and karanja cake to your soil? I got a small bag of the 50/50 neem/karanja from BAS and was planning on topdressing to help with pests but I've heard a few negative things lately about them. Outside of IPM I think at least neem provides some nutritional value, no?


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 23, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> What does everyone think of adding neem and karanja cake to your soil? I got a small bag of the 50/50 neem/karanja from BAS and was planning on topdressing to help with pests but I've heard a few negative things lately about them. Outside of IPM I think at least neem provides some nutritional value, no?


Is that the Ahimsa (sp?) brand that smells like beef boullion cubes? If so, yes it does contain nutrient value. Mostly N iirc. Be careful with how much you lay down though. It can burn a plant as it mineralizes in/on the soil!


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## bizfactory (Feb 23, 2016)

Yeah it's Ahimsa brand.

I was planning on top dressing with about a 1/4 or 1/2 cup on my 15 gallon pots. Sounds about right? I also have a neighbor giving me worms tonight, should I worry about them being harmed?


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 23, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Yeah it's Ahimsa brand.
> 
> I was planning on top dressing with about a 1/4 or 1/2 cup on my 15 gallon pots. Sounds about right? I also have a neighbor giving me worms tonight, should I worry about them being harmed?


I'd start light and adjust from there. 1/4 cup tops IMO.

I personally don't use neem seed cake in my worm bin. I jacked a few plants up with it so I'm a lil gun shy to be honest.


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## bizfactory (Feb 23, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'd start light and adjust from there. 1/4 cup tops IMO.
> 
> I personally don't use neem seed cake in my worm bin. I jacked a few plants up with it so I'm a lil gun shy to be honest.


 Thanks man, I won't go over a 1/4 cup. What were the effects when you jacked them up? I'll also be top dressing with crab and kelp at the same time. Planning on going light on all of it then a ewc layer on top.


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 23, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks man, I won't go over a 1/4 cup. What were the effects when you jacked them up? I'll also be top dressing with crab and kelp at the same time. Planning on going light on all of it then a ewc layer on top.


Burnt leaf tips, curling, etc. only on the 6 plants I top dressed the neem with. Only time I've burned a plant since switching to organics!


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## GreenSanta (Feb 23, 2016)

yeah go easy on neem, I once top dressed with ewc and neem cake mixed together to help with pests, it was a long long time ago but I still remember its the only time my weed was ever harsh to smoke I have been using neem cake in SMALL amounts in my soil mixes ever since, no neem oil, no neem top dresses ... just enough that it is in there because it is known to improve quality of flowers in horticulture in general so I do like my plants to have a little bit of it... anyway, its easy to get carried away, but whether its liquid seaweed, guano, alfalfa, etc, too much of any one thing is never good regardless of how beneficial the product can be.


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 26, 2016)

Quick question: I did The Revs -TLO method. I dumped out the soil in a pile but didn't mix or anything, so I could reuse the pots.

This soil has been sitting for months and is undoubtedly dry.

What can/should I do to reuse this soil? I think I'll have to get it tested to know where I stand correct? Or do I just reamend w/ say the reamend recipe from buildasoil? ( 1/2 cup per cu ft of: neem cake, kelp meal, crab meal,fish meal,gypsum )

Feel like testing would give me an idea of where to start no? 

This method uses bagged soil. I was going to switch to the 1:1:1 peat,compost/castings, aeration so should I just dump this older soil and start fresh instead? 

Maybe not so quick of question lol sorry


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## hyroot (Feb 26, 2016)

I use about half the neem of the other amendments. About 1/4 cup per cubic foot. I never have burns. I get the neem cake from neem source. I used to use down to earth neem.


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## Mohican (Feb 26, 2016)

Compost tea (especially worm compost) will kickstart old soil.


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## Andrew2112 (Feb 26, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I use about half the neem of the other amendments. About 1/4 cup per cubic foot. I never have burns. I get the neem cake from neem source. I used to use down to earth neem.


Ahimsa has amazing wild crafted neem cake and karanja cake, that is what we use and it is is awesome! Best/most intense smell. The terpenes really play into how effective they are


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## littlejacob (Feb 26, 2016)

Bonjour
Neem + karanja cake seems to pleased you a lot...what do you use with? 
I should give it a try as I found a local source! 
CU


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## Organicgrow42 (Feb 26, 2016)

@Mohican you think I should get it tested? 

Would you reamend or switch to 1:1:1 peat based in your opinion?

I'm leaning towards starting fresh but there's a lot of time and money in that soil still but unless I get it tested, I feel blind unless someone else has any thoughts


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## elkamino (Feb 26, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Quick question: I did The Revs -TLO method. I dumped out the soil in a pile but didn't mix or anything, so I could reuse the pots.
> 
> This soil has been sitting for months and is undoubtedly dry.
> 
> ...


If you were using the Rev's soil I'd say you don't need to test it. Add worm compost at like 20% then water with aloe and sprouted seed teas- corn, barley, alfalfa. I've done this with success.

You can also hedge your bet and mix it 1:1 (or whatever ratio you figure) with the new soil blend ofyour choice. That will give you the confidence of the new soil, but also allow you to access the slow-release minerals etc of the old media, plus you don't have to throw it away.


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## DonBrennon (Feb 27, 2016)

Rrog said:


> You mean pissing in a bag of charcoal? Hahahaha. Nope, I'm cooking in the barrel burners.
> 
> @elkamino I've talked with those Growstone folks about buying pallets or 1 ton super-sacks but too much $$. That's why I'm excited about the biochar as aeration


I had my scaled down model running last night




sorry about the dog, he's full of charisma, but a pain in the ass


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## Rrog (Feb 27, 2016)

Great looking retort ! Great looking dog!


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## DonBrennon (Feb 27, 2016)

Rrog said:


> Great looking retort ! Great looking dog!


He keeps the local herion users out of my house, but he's actually scared of his own shadow, if a cat fronts him out he shits himself lol


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## hyroot (Feb 28, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> He keeps the local herion users out of my house, but he's actually scared of his own shadow, if a cat fronts him out he shits himself lol



My cat thinks he's a dog. Acts like a bad ass and shows off to every one. Only gets a long with dogs that are the same size except for a neighbors German Shepard. They actually have played together. When no one else is around. He turns into a spoiled crybaby. Wanting to top off his food bowl every 5 minutes and get him new water every 5 minutes.


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## Wetdog (Feb 28, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I'd start light and adjust from there. 1/4 cup tops IMO.
> 
> I personally don't use neem seed cake in my worm bin. I jacked a few plants up with it so I'm a lil gun shy to be honest.


Big +1 on the light part I add neem to my mix, top dress with it and add it to the worm bin. 1cup/cf is max added to the mix and 1/2cup/cf is plenty. A light 1/4cup for the top dress is more than enough. I'll sprinkle a bit on the surface of the worm bin every 2-3 weeks.

This last season it was pretty much my IPM and it worked great. Just need to get it added to the mix along with the other amendments and let it cycle. Top dress later, but the top dressing alone is kinda so so if it's not in the mix from the git. Found that out the previous season.

Read through the information at Neem Resources, they recc the 1/2cup/cf amount and also touch on how much worms love it. Far from pushing more so you buy more, the message is "go light", and less is better. Pretty much like kelp meal that people mostly over apply. *I* apply kelp and neem at the same rate, usually 1/2 cup/cf and never over 1cup/cf. More just creates problems rather than working better.

Neem cake and Kelp meal are pretty much the only things I'll spend the shipping cost on to buy in 40-50lb bags.

Wet


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## kkt3 (Feb 29, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I started my pile in the fall of 2014. I was using my neighbors in the interim. Mine is ready, and I've used it in the last couple batches of soil that I've made. No unwanted critters, or ill effects of any kind that I've noticed. I chose to add a good amount of N (alfalfa meal) to my pile to both speed the process up, and attract thermophilic bacteria to the pile to destroy any pathogens that may be present. So far so good!
> 
> I just take a leaf blower and blow all of my leaves in to one corner of my yard. I then run over the leaves with my lawn mower to increase surface area and break them down a bit. Wet it down, project some alfalfa meal over the pile, turn, then leave it be. 12 months later and you're left with a dark, crumbly material that makes the best medium I have ever worked with. Good water retention, but also very porous. I used to water my 10 gal containers once every 3-4 days. Now I have to water every 36-48 hours. Absent an automated watering device (like blu mats) it makes for a bit more work, but the growth and overall health of my plants has improved drastically. I'm assuming this is due to the increased oxygen to the root zone, and perhaps fungi/bacteria that colonize the leaf mold.
> 
> It's free, easy to make, and is the most environmentally friendly medium that I'm aware of. I urge everyone to try it!


A question for you st0wandgrow. Do you use any type of leaves? Is there a more beneficial leaf?


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## st0wandgrow (Feb 29, 2016)

kkt3 said:


> A question for you st0wandgrow. Do you use any type of leaves? Is there a more beneficial leaf?


I only have maple trees in my yard, so I don't have any first hand experience with other leaves, but from the reading I've done there is only subtle differences between various types of trees leaves. Oak for example is higher in lignin, so they take longer to break down.

One of the keys IMO is to try to get to the leaves before they get too brown and crumbly. Fresh leaves have a higher N content, so they will decompose quicker than older leaves. If you have a lawn mower with a bagger, you could always mow the leaves up which will shred them, creating more surface area, and you will also get some lawn clippings (N) in the mix.... both of which will help speed things up.


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## Mohican (Feb 29, 2016)

I have found that the worm compost tea balances out the soil and the plants will tell you whether they are missing anything. I am still supplementing with high chemical PK doses to improve resin production. I use Mad Farmer MOAB.

I have been getting great results with Kelp meal and juice so I may be removing the MOAB from the mix.


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## Mohican (Feb 29, 2016)

I read that the N component is usually lacking in compost and needs to be supplemented. I recently added bone and blood meal to my compost pile along with some greensand and azomite.


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## JSJ (Feb 29, 2016)

Hey guys, first off if this question has already been asked/answered, I apologize now,

I have been reading this thread for the last two days (whenever I have an extra 5 minutes).....

So I have ran a couple of my pots through a few grows now. They are FULL.

I was thinking about trying to cut the top off my pots, like sod farmers would do, pull dirt out of the bottom of the pot and replace the "sod" back in the pot.

So my question to you guys is, A) Is this something you guys do? B) How do you go about this?

I was thinking of letting it dry out a little so I could pull the whole "plug" of dirt up enough to cut underneath the roots and separate it.

The other thought I had was to cut down through the dirt and roots and divide it up like pizza slices and then try to dig out each "slice" roots and all, and then patch the "sod slices" back on top after removing some dirt.

Any advise or a good direction to go in would be much appreciated!

Thanks guys!


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## hyroot (Mar 1, 2016)

JSJ said:


> Hey guys, first off if this question has already been asked/answered, I apologize now,
> 
> I have been reading this thread for the last two days (whenever I have an extra 5 minutes).....
> 
> ...



No. We just topdress castings and watered with seed sprout teas or coconut water. Which will break down all the old roots within a couple weeks. Increasing the microbial population. Then you can replant after or before that happens.


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## AllDayToker (Mar 1, 2016)

Hey everyone,

So I'm a few weeks into flower, I still have at least 6 weeks to go. And my plants look like they are starting to fade a bit. I feel like I might not be watering or feeding enough.

I can post pictures for further assistance but for now I am just curious how often I should be feeding two large plants in 10g smartpots, that are past and stretch and now flowering fully.

And I don't know how well the microbe colony is in the soil, so let's say it's low. And ive only fed casting teas and alfalfa kelp meal teas up to this point, and nothing else.


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## JSJ (Mar 1, 2016)

hyroot said:


> No. We just topdress castings and watered with seed sprout teas or coconut water. Which will break down all the old roots within a couple weeks. Increasing the microbial population. Then you can replant after or before that happens.


Thanks for replying back.

I have no more room to top dress anymore!!

So you are saying the SST and more castings will break down the soil enough for it to drop 3", so I can start top dressing again?


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## hyroot (Mar 1, 2016)

JSJ said:


> Thanks for replying back.
> 
> I have no more room to top dress anymore!!
> 
> So you are saying the SST and more castings will break down the soil enough for it to drop 3", so I can start top dressing again?


No. When my pots have reached their limit. I have removed a couple inches of soil so I can topdress. That's after harvest of course. Then just throw that removed soil into a bin of other soil.

The enzymes break down the roots. At the same time the microbes feed on the roots.

If you can't topdress. Then water with a compost tea.

If you are in mid flower. Removing the roots will only be detrimental to the plant.


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## JSJ (Mar 1, 2016)

hyroot said:


> No. When my pots have reached their limit. I have removed a couple inches of soil so I can topdress. That's after harvest of course. Then just throw that removed soil into a bin of other soil.
> 
> The enzymes break down the roots. At the same time the microbes feed on the roots.
> 
> ...


Again thanks for the reply.

The pots in question have been run through 3x time. They are harvested and sitting back in my veg room. They still have clover growing in them.

I was thinking it would be better to keep the living manure alive, with all beneficials intact with the roots.

But you say to go ahead and just rip the top 3-4 inches out of each pot and through it on the compost and start a new manure crop in my pots?


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## hyroot (Mar 1, 2016)

JSJ said:


> Again thanks for the reply.
> 
> The pots in question have been run through 3x time. They are harvested and sitting back in my veg room. They still have clover growing in them.
> 
> ...


The clover will break down roots while they're growing too. They facilitate microbes and exute enzymes from their roots. So you will be fine there. Just don't let them dry out.


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## Rrog (Mar 1, 2016)

You have to leave the soil a few inches low when starting a soil to accommodate the added amendments over time. I am the worst at this. It looks pitiful to have what looks like an unfilled pot and put a plant in it.


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## JSJ (Mar 1, 2016)

Hey guys thanks for the replies.

So just to clarify what is going on here. I started my manure crop to begin with in pots that had 3-4 inches of room to the top.

I plant my clones right in with the clover. I top dress fresh worm compost, once in veg and once in flower.

I leave my clover growing continously, just cut it back every week or so and leave all my clippings in the pot.

Now they are full and I have no more room to top dress anything.

Now to my unedumacted ass, it seems like I would want to keep all those layers of compost in the pot and remove soil from the bottom to make room at the top for layering more compost.

Or am I thinking about this the wrong way?


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## AllDayToker (Mar 1, 2016)

I feel like my plants are not getting enough food. Can someone tell me their thoughts based off these photos.

Plant 1


Plant 2


Thank you for your time.


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## kmog33 (Mar 1, 2016)

So this has peaked my interest a bit and I've looked into a bunch of the recipes, but is there any rols mix with less than like 5 parts? All of what I can find seem to be ~20 ingredients. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 1, 2016)

@kmog33 

I asked the same question s few weeks ago. Now my life has changed. 

Start reading here: buildasoil.com

Aldo read this thread as best you can and the vermicomposting thread. 

Now I'm just like hyroot. Mayne compost tea, sst, aloe and coconut water


----------



## Organicgrow42 (Mar 1, 2016)

Just picked up so milled malted barley that is sprouted and dried from buildasoil.com 

It says add 1oz per gallon of water, bubble for 12-24 hours 

I'm supposed to strain this after and then water right?

Also can you bubble longer? I usually visit my garden every other day ( live 30 mins away and have a newborn) 

I'd make the sst and then let bubble til I came back


----------



## Organicgrow42 (Mar 1, 2016)

I wanted to share this and more later on but this plant on left was worse looking. I added EWC top dress about 12 days ago and it looks much better.

A comparison is the plant on the right. Both are in 5 gals but the plant on right is in a mix that is:
2 parts peat
1 part EWC
1/2 part small perilite
1/2 part big chunk perilite

So a mix that's 2:1:1

The one on left is in the revs soil.

Both a green crack.

I'd say coot is on to something. I'll post when I make his mix including the rock dusts and mulching.

Things are looking better in my garden everyday


----------



## AllDayToker (Mar 1, 2016)

So you think just top dressing with some ewc would solve my problem? How much would you suggest for a 10g pot?


----------



## Organicgrow42 (Mar 1, 2016)

I've also given some foliar and soil drench aloe. It's seeming to work for me. I'd try it. I did about a 1.5 inch layer


----------



## DonBrennon (Mar 1, 2016)

Don't know if this has been posted before, but I'm watching this for a second time and I've never seen it referenced here. 

It's basically teaming with microbes, deconstructed in presentation form................by the *Jeff Lowenfels





*


----------



## Organicgrow42 (Mar 1, 2016)

I watched the video, I liked it. Thanks for posting!


----------



## bizfactory (Mar 1, 2016)

So for anyone who is *top dressing with an established cover crop...what do you do?*

I figure the dry amendments can just be sprinkled around, but then the plan was to cover that with a 50/50 ewc/compost layer...maybe an inch or half an inch.

Sooo will my clover just get merked and composted into the soil? Pop up on the other side in a few days? I'm just a few weeks into veg so plenty of time to replant I guess.


----------



## Crab Pot (Mar 1, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> So for anyone who is *top dressing with an established cover crop...what do you do?*
> 
> I figure the dry amendments can just be sprinkled around, but then the plan was to cover that with a 50/50 ewc/compost layer...maybe an inch or half an inch.
> 
> Sooo will my clover just get merked and composted into the soil? Pop up on the other side in a few days? I'm just a few weeks into veg so plenty of time to replant I guess.


Sprinkle amendments and brush them into the cover crop or when top dressing with ewc/compost/amendments, just cover up the cover crop and throw some more clover seeds down.


----------



## Rrog (Mar 2, 2016)

What's everyone's opinion of cover crop? I used to be more excited about it, personally


----------



## DonBrennon (Mar 2, 2016)

Rrog said:


> What's everyone's opinion of cover crop? I used to be more excited about it, personally


Me too, i think it looks pretty, but for my own circumstances, don't really feel it brings any benefit. Its a pain in the ass if you plant the wrong stuff too, constantly having to trim it down. A good quality organic mulch is probably more beneficial.


----------



## bizfactory (Mar 2, 2016)

Rrog said:


> What's everyone's opinion of cover crop? I used to be more excited about it, personally


It really seems to keep the moisture more even in my experience and the idea of N fixing is awesome but no clue how well it works in practice. I did snap this pic of the N fixing bacteria last night


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## hyroot (Mar 2, 2016)

Rrog said:


> What's everyone's opinion of cover crop? I used to be more excited about it, personally



I don't like clover anymore. It eventually attracts white flies.. I'm a try basil soon. I will have a bunch of basil seeds soon that I made myself. I have 2 basil plants that are flowering now


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## AllDayToker (Mar 2, 2016)

I feel like these girls are lightening up near the top, feel like they don't have enough food. I'm about 6 weeks from chop.

Any suggestions? I haven't top dressed at all, and I feed them just alfalfa/kelp meal teas and occasionally an ewc tea.

Plant 1





Plant 2




Thanks for your time and any help you can give me.


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## Rrog (Mar 2, 2016)

I haven't seen data, but I believe the N-Fixing of clover only happens when there's Low N. I'm not thinking (opinion time, here) that we let our pots get nearly low enough in N to trigger the nitrogen fixing. 

I have heard that this only works in N-starved soils. I'd love to know more about this.


----------



## 4ftRoots (Mar 2, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I haven't seen data, but I believe the N-Fixing of clover only happens when there's Low N. I'm not thinking (opinion time, here) that we let our pots get nearly low enough in N to trigger the nitrogen fixing.
> 
> I have heard that this only works in N-starved soils. I'd love to know more about this.


I have noticed that aswell. You will never have too much nitrogen but just enough with clover. I used to run clover but changed to yarrow/chamomile because of mites. When I changed over to a new cover crop I definitely noticed the need to add more nitrogen to my soils. The clover is very beneficial. I want to experiment with adding a couple clover plants per pot but I love not dealing with mites hahaha.

I use the cover crop for the same reason as bizfactory. It helps keep the pots more evenly moist. I also wrap my smart pots in tarp to keep moisture in. I do all this because I use blumats so my pots are not evenly watered. Works great in my experience!


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## Quintessence (Mar 2, 2016)

Hi All, 

Wow what a great thread. I've been working on getting my No-Till garden for some time now and this thread has been a great resource for me. I have a question for the experts here. I have been using Alfalfa straw as a mulch for my 4 plants and I've noticed that there is quite a bit white mold or some sort of growth poking its head through the straw. Is this a good or bad thing? I was planning on planting a cover crop in the next day or so. Pictures below.


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## Beemo (Mar 2, 2016)

Quintessence said:


> Hi All,
> 
> Wow what a great thread. I've been working on getting my No-Till garden for some time now and this thread has been a great resource for me. I have a question for the experts here. I have been using Alfalfa straw as a mulch for my 4 plants and I've noticed that there is quite a bit white mold or some sort of growth poking its head through the straw. Is this a good or bad thing? I was planning on planting a cover crop in the next day or so. Pictures below. View attachment 3621518


no worries... got the same stuff..
white is good.. green is bad... 
  

imo dont really need to crop cover unless your working with 10g or more....


----------



## AllDayToker (Mar 2, 2016)

So I'm going to just put a 2 in layer of ewc on my pots and see if that solves my problems.

If someone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.


----------



## Beemo (Mar 2, 2016)

AllDayToker said:


> I feel like these girls are lightening up near the top, feel like they don't have enough food. I'm about 6 weeks from chop.
> Any suggestions? I haven't top dressed at all, and I feed them just alfalfa/kelp meal teas and occasionally an ewc tea.
> Thanks for your time and any help you can give me.


top dress now with tomato food or bulb food and EWC... not going to stop yellowing, but it will help...
no more top dressing/food after 4 weeks... no guano after 7 weeks,, if doing 10 weeks.
seems like you got hungry plants... next time, make the soil hotter...

edit: you can topdress with soil


----------



## Beemo (Mar 2, 2016)

AllDayToker said:


> So I'm going to just put a 2 in layer of ewc on my pots and see if that solves my problems.
> 
> If someone could point me in the right direction I would appreciate it.


bacteria/fungal population in soil, is a must in organics... it tells the roots to EAT....
once a month application is good enough


----------



## Quintessence (Mar 2, 2016)

Beemo said:


> no worries... got the same stuff..
> white is good.. green is bad...
> View attachment 3621573 View attachment 3621574 View attachment 3621575
> 
> imo dont really need to crop cover unless your working with 10g or more....


Good to know, thanks! It's my first time growing cannabis and I'm having a blast with this new hobby.


----------



## AllDayToker (Mar 2, 2016)

Alright thanks for the help you guys.


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## AllDayToker (Mar 2, 2016)

Alright so I topped my 10g pots with 3 cups of this Jobes Proven Winners stuff I have used in the past. For flowering.





And then I also added 5 cups of ewc.

Then watered it all in with a 1 cup alfalfa meal/1 cup kelp meal tea that has been bubbling for 2 days in 4gallons of water.

Sound like I'm on the right track?


----------



## Beemo (Mar 2, 2016)

AllDayToker said:


> Alright so I topped my 10g pots with 3 cups of this Jobes Proven Winners stuff I have used in the past. For flowering.
> And then I also added 5 cups of ewc.
> Then watered it all in with a 1 cup alfalfa meal/1 cup kelp meal tea that has been bubbling for 2 days in 4gallons of water.
> Sound like I'm on the right track?


jobes good stuff... used it before...
but 3 cups is alot for 10g...
try 1 tbsp maybe 2 tbsp a week or until dissolved... 

instead of alfalfa/kelp tea.. use compost/ewc tea... so it tells the roots to eat.


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## Rrog (Mar 2, 2016)

Only think I don't like is the feather meal and likely the bone meal. Commercial chicken feed is high in metals and metal-like materials like arsenic. This concentrates in their bones and feathers. 

I have an organic chicken farmer where I'm getting some feathers. Clean feed


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## Rrog (Mar 2, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> I have noticed that aswell. You will never have too much nitrogen but just enough with clover. I used to run clover but changed to yarrow/chamomile because of mites. When I changed over to a new cover crop I definitely noticed the need to add more nitrogen to my soils. The clover is very beneficial. I want to experiment with adding a couple clover plants per pot but I love not dealing with mites hahaha.


That's an interesting observation. So my supposition above wouldn't be accurate. The clover provided N in an already relatively high N environment. I thought the N had to be a lot lower to start kicking in

Not everyone has had the white mites with clover. I haven't. I wonder why this is. I haven't use predatory mites but do use crab, BTI and nematodes


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## DonBrennon (Mar 2, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Me too, i think it looks pretty, but for my own circumstances, don't really feel it brings any benefit. Its a pain in the ass if you plant the wrong stuff too, constantly having to trim it down. A good quality organic mulch is probably more beneficial.


Having said that, I do currently have living mulch/companion plants in my no tills and they're very pretty at the moment lol
   

Marigolds, micro-clover and I think I may have added some dill or something when drunk, it's too young to identify as yet. Marigold are said to enhance the growth and flavour of various fruit, veg and herbs when used as a companion plant. I've never tried them before, but like I said, they look pretty lol.


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 2, 2016)

Rrog said:


> That's an interesting observation. So my supposition above wouldn't be accurate. The clover provided N in an already relatively high N environment. I thought the N had to be a lot lower to start kicking in
> 
> Not everyone has had the white mites with clover. I haven't. I wonder why this is. I haven't use predatory mites but do use crab, BTI and nematodes


I worded incorrectly. You are correct clover does not supply until needed. Only when needed and it gives nitrogen in the correct amounts somehow. 

I've never figured it out. I must live in a bad area because I sometimes get mites in the dead of winter. I do have a dog but it never comes to the room with me. I have incredibly healthy plants in my opinion.


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## Rrog (Mar 2, 2016)

I think most people get mites. I'd love to know why some do and some don't.


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## DonBrennon (Mar 2, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I think most people get mites. I'd love to know why some do and some don't.


I'd imagine location has a great deal to do with it, ie, if you live near a nice warm forest full of active mite, you're much more likely to bring them in your garden than if you live near a cool coastal climate.


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## hyroot (Mar 2, 2016)

I live in the dry desert. I just had mites on an outdoor plant. Got rid of them. I don't have them indoor. I think genetics plays a role too. Some strains just deter them. It's their auto immune system or maybe it's the terps they put off. And kush like or sour terp smelling plants seem to keep them away. My basil outside never get a single bug. The main basil plant is 3 years old too.


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## Rrog (Mar 2, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I live in the dry desert. I just had mites on an outdoor plant. Got rid of them. I don't have them indoor. I think genetics plays a role too. Some strains just deter them. It's their auto immune system or maybe it's the terps they put off. And kush like or sour terp smelling plants seem to keep them away. My basil outside never get a single bug. The main basil plant is 3 years old too.


You're onto something...


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## Quintessence (Mar 3, 2016)

> imo dont really need to crop cover unless your working with 10g or more....


I'm using 7g smart pots. I did buy some Crimson Clover, Marigolds and some other micro greens a while back so I have the seeds. Forgive my ignorance but aren't flowing cover crops like crimson clover going to be bad to have in the tent during flower? I've seen threads with people planting Marigolds and other flowering plants into their pots and I'm curious how they avoid cross pollination.


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## DonBrennon (Mar 3, 2016)

Quintessence said:


> I'm using 7g smart pots. I did buy some Crimson Clover, Marigolds and some other micro greens a while back so I have the seeds. Forgive my ignorance but aren't flowing cover crops like crimson clover going to be bad to have in the tent during flower? I've seen threads with people planting Marigolds and other flowering plants into their pots and I'm curious how they avoid cross pollination.


I'm sorry for the bluntness here, but, it'd be like you cross pollinating a dog lol, different species


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## Wetdog (Mar 4, 2016)

Rrog said:


> What's everyone's opinion of cover crop? I used to be more excited about it, personally


Cover crops, for us, is a solution in search of a problem. They work great for tired, depleted, SOIL gardens of a certain size, but for a well amended container mix? They really serve no purpose other than a buzzword to toss out and extra work.

Think about it for a bit. How much N (for example), is clover going to provide, indoors, that a handful of neem or alfalfa, or VC wouldn't provide? If you have 5 acres of depleted soil, a cover crop makes perfect sense. But a indoor container?

There are other outdoor soil practices/techniques that are being downsized for indoor containers that just don't really make the transition all that well.

Wet


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## Rrog (Mar 4, 2016)

I agree with much of that. I have been systematically examining each amendment and practice and distilling that down to things that work simply vs. things that are simply work. I've done plenty of clover, and have recommended it for years, but now if it's not a clear benefit, I'm abandoning.


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## Mohican (Mar 4, 2016)

I have let the dandelions go crazy in my garden because the pull silicone and nutrients out of the soil and then they compost very quickly.


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 4, 2016)

Beemo said:


> bacteria/fungal population in soil, is a must in organics... it tells the roots to EAT....


????


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## DonBrennon (Mar 4, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> ????


I thought that myself...............the plant tells roots to eat, it also dictates which microbes are dominant in your soil, constantly adding microbes will disturb this and the plant isn't getting what it actually want's. This may not be shown in yield, but the plants true genetic profile showing, more terpines, stronger, frostier bud............I'm caned and may well be babbling bullshit lol


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## DonBrennon (Mar 4, 2016)

I apologize if you've seen this already(I've been posting it everywhere)...........but, some people are impressed by my diy COB light, that was a lot of time on research and development, a lot of work and a LOT of money spent......................This, impressed me, massively more, lol, it was free and made within 1 hour, cos I already had timers and a little bit of superglue(a little bit of patience helps too, those gears are fiddly, if you've got big fat sausage fingers you've no chance).




I feel like a spammer I've posted that much about this, but those hydro companies are just ripping us all off, on everything, from nutes that are 98% inert substances(eg water), to electrical switching gear where the components cost pence, but the product cost £100's/$'s
Lets Redress the balance, when you start asking them about the products they supply they're clueless, their only interest is $$$$$


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## DonBrennon (Mar 5, 2016)

This must be some fookin book!!!!!!!

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1875093044?refRID=QYNJKEN5FWB5E16QFEKE&ref_=pd_cart_vw_1_4_bo

anyone care to buy it? and share it with us?..............LOL................I know...........copyright laws and all...............oh or you could buy this newer version for a mere :$1,302.76+ $3.99 shipping.........hahaha, can you believe they're charging $4 shipping on a $1000+ book............it's possible there's a typo error, but if so, the proof reader needs sacking. lol.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/1875093419/ref=tmm_hrd_new_olp_sr?ie=UTF8&condition=new&qid=&sr=


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## DonBrennon (Mar 6, 2016)

This is what I'm up against here in the UK, apparently organic farming only started in 1946...................errrrr?????.................what were they doing before the invention of oil based synthetics??????????...................and I think this is an official EU website
http://www.ifoam-eu.org/en/united-kingdom........These people are giving organic accreditation/certification within the EU.

This bit turned into a drawn out political rant about the EU and our membership, which doesn't belong here and got deleted LOL, but here's a very brief outline - Good philosophy, good ideology, centralisation of power, power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. EU already totally corrupt and hate the British. Get the fuck out..........LOL

I also came across this

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Neptunes-Harvest-Crab-Shell-Multi-Purpose-Plant-Food-2-3-0-4lb-/161985741909?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368

yep, thats right, just $142 + postage for a 4Lb bag of crabshell meal............WTAF??????

On a more possitive note, I think somebody over here is on to something and has beat me to it, and I wouldn't be surprised if they're a member of one of these forums. Not too sure about the sulphates he's adding, but good amendments are so! difficult to come by over here................I'd love to know where his crabshell/crustacean meal is coming from

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Black-Magic-SUPER-SOIL-from-Nutty-Nutes-BUDS-CHITIN-2KG-/301868793489?hash=item4648c83e91:g:HokAAOSwa-dWmATc


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 6, 2016)

lol Interesting i get a kick out of how and Yes even MJ growers make something narural into a cluster fuck 
Now being straight up and with over 40 years of growing Exp some food for thought 
Do not over think organics that will be your downfall 
the best investment you will ever make is purchasing couple pounds of live worms as well as couple totes 
First thing anyone that wants to go organic should plan on having things ready , this is why i suggest worm bins and the beginning of your soil making process 

Step one - purchase top soil and sterilize it 
Step 2 - collect all your veggie scraps , including used coffee grinds an even some used or cooked fats 
step 3 purchase 3 bins i suggest 30 gallon totes min one for each green s and browns as well as your intial worm bin 
Step 4 start of worm bin and your soil put 10 gallons of sterilized soil into bin mix 3 gallons of greens and browns into it ,
water it and mix to get perfect dam mixture and cover for 24 hrs in 60 - 65 degree temp room

Step 5 find brown card board and chop it up or shred it and also mix into dam soil Attention add another 3 gallons of water to make up for the soaking of cardboard 

Step 6 add your worms carefully mix them into mix , once all done place leafs and news print on top cover tote do not close just cover and your off to the races 

Within a month that one worm bin farm will be 3 worm bin farms and with that every time you add more greens remember add more sterilized soil make it damp mix it into existing worm bins before you now it 
you will have 90 gallons of living soil 

PS treat them some times with a nice tea of what ever you choose but remember don't make them lazy 
There you have it folks Keep it simple and keep it green 2 week no till flowering girls 2 weeks under T5 then 2 weeks under 600 n flip 18 gallon pots there beasts


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## DonBrennon (Mar 6, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> lol Interesting i get a kick out of how and Yes even MJ growers make something narural into a cluster fuck
> Now being straight up and with over 40 years of growing Exp some food for thought
> Do not over think organics that will be your downfall
> the best investment you will ever make is purchasing couple pounds of live worms as well as couple totes
> ...


I like...................but what do you mean by sterilized soil? thermal composted? how do you sterilize soil?


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## DonBrennon (Mar 6, 2016)

I am a little confused on this one. I think I can buy sterilized organic topsoil, but doesn't sterilizsing soil kind of defeat the object of what we're trying to do?


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 6, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I am a little confused on this one. I think I can buy sterilized organic topsoil, but doesn't sterilizsing soil kind of defeat the object of what we're trying to do?


 Not when your starting from scratch does not take much to recharge sterilized soil 
any new top soil we get we run it in the oven, then mix it accordingly to live soil this way it not only insures us that all bad organisms are dead and our percentage of not getting fungas , mold spores etc its always a safe bet to have piece of mind rather then reading some mis guided lies on a product that says sterilized soil 

Its cover your ass and make sure its sterile


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## AllDayToker (Mar 7, 2016)

Homemade cobs for the win. Made my own light as well and has already showed improvements over my HPS, even with my last harvest having so much trouble.


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## bizfactory (Mar 7, 2016)

AllDayToker said:


> Homemade cobs for the win. Made my own light as well and has already showed improvements over my HPS, even with my last harvest having so much trouble.


I'm running 100% COBs split between CXB3590s, CXB3070s, Vero 29s and Vero 18s  

Add some living soil and some blumats and it basically grows itself!!


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## AllDayToker (Mar 7, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I'm running 100% COBs split between CXB3590s, CXB3070s, Vero 29s and Vero 18s
> 
> Add some living soil and some blumats and it basically grows itself!!


Yeah I want to do blumats or some kind of watering system next.

Right now I'm running 8 cxb3070s. 50w each. Covers 13 sqft and getting better results with less then half the electric being used compared to last setup.

Absolutely love them.


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

Oh cmon guys Cobs are just a light Although lights are important to any grow room so is environment . You can have the best lighting and soil in the world if your environment is fucked She ain't going to grow for shit 
There is a shit load of mis conceptions i mean really .
biggest being what Efficiency ??? and although they are more effiicient there not by a mile 
For instance bulding 6000 watts of Cob units with them being 52 percent efficient ????
Can any one tell me WTF the other 48 percent is ??? so that throws out the well with HPS i do not need to vent WTF Again all grow rooms its one of the most important things is 
air exchange 
And if wwe break it down even further it takes 800 watts of Cobs to compete with a mogul 1000 watt unit and sure the hell not coming close to a DE unit 
i mean really 800 watt cob 1.5 GPW = 1200 grams 
1000 mag balast 1180 dry grams 
PS : my best 2000 watt grow mag ballast just under 8 pounds dry difference between the 2 
about 60 plants lol i mean how many plants can you or think you can stuff under 800 watts of cobs 80 ??? with 5 week veg 

Cobs have been around now for some time and surely know one is killing HPS its all the closet growers seeing gains 
Ask your self why 
not here to start bashing nothing just stating FAT from the thousands of journals all over the internet with mag's DE as well as Cob grows 
For the cost its not much gains when you really truly break it down 
and Sick and tired of the science on it sure it looks good on paper and in theory but just have to look at actual 
I am so looking forward in doing a side by side 140 plants vegged 5 weeks with 70 with 800 worth of cobs or Equivilant 1000 WATT i will run a 1000 watt mag unit with 5 week veg 70 plants parabolic 6 foot hood and then the numbers will be seen I would put money on the 1000 watt parabolic it will do 1360 - 1400 dry grams compared to the cob 1000 watt which is 800 watts in cobs @ 1200 dry grams half a pound is a half a pound  and lets not forget that mag 1000 watt only cost 150 bucks compared to 800 watts in cobs 2500


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## AllDayToker (Mar 7, 2016)

Not reading all of that but they call it more efficient for a point. First you musto understand the term.

The fact is cobs produce less heat and take less to cool down, and there for, can use more of its power it's given to put off actual usable light/lumens. So watt per watt there is more lumens.

If they doesn't give you enough. Look at the yields, the grams per watt.

Getting the most bang for your buck, that's efficiency!


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## bizfactory (Mar 7, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> For instance bulding 6000 watts of Cob units with them being 52 percent efficient ????
> Can any one tell me WTF the other 48 percent is ??? so that throws out the well with HPS i do not need to vent WTF Again all grow rooms its one of the most important things is
> air exchange


Hahaha oh man, the other 48% is heat, it's not a mystery. No one is telling you your lights suck, chill dude. We are just happy with our COBs


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## AllDayToker (Mar 7, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Hahaha oh man, the other 48% is heat, it's not a mystery. No one is telling you your lights suck, chill dude. We are just happy with our COBs


It's funny what people say when they don't fully understand what they are talking about.


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## testiclees (Mar 7, 2016)

@2ANONYMOUS

Dude is stating fat from 1000's of journals? GTFOH
Lol
you have zero clue. Give the witless lecturing a rest burro.

Your plants look average. Your photography blows


----------



## hyroot (Mar 7, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> Oh cmon guys Cobs are just a light Although lights are important to any grow room so is environment . You can have the best lighting and soil in the world if your environment is fucked She ain't going to grow for shit
> There is a shit load of mis conceptions i mean really .
> biggest being what Efficiency ??? and although they are more effiicient there not by a mile
> For instance bulding 6000 watts of Cob units with them being 52 percent efficient ????
> ...



The other 48% is heat. An average se 1000w hps is about 25% -'30% efficient. That means basically that the 1000w is only producing 250-300 watts of light and 700-750 watts of heat. More efficient = less heat. 600 watts of cobs at 52% efficiency is producing 322 watts of light and 278 watts of heat.

Go to the led section and look at older threads. The side by side has been done to death.


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

AllDayToker said:


> It's funny what people say when they don't fully understand what they are talking about.


dude don't go there i probably thrown more weed away then most will ever grow lol seriously 
people are making cobs out like there the only light tht will grow dank weed 
would love to see your Cob grow cause i bet its just so really impressive 
put up or shut


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## AllDayToker (Mar 7, 2016)

You clearly don't know what you are talking about and it's funny. I'm not going anywhere.

Those pics look great in wouldn't disagree.

I would agree with the fact that the GPW from a cob system will be higher, if not much higher, then a fully dialed in system.

I can pull more weight from my 400w system then I could with a Chinese cob 190w with my old 600w hps.

Not to mention how much better my plants look without the aggressive output and heat HIDs have.


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> The other 48% is heat. An average se 1000w hps is about 25% -'30% efficient. That means basically that the 1000w is only producing 250-300 watts of light and 700-750 watts of heat. More efficient = less heat. 600 watts of cobs at 52% efficiency is producing 322 watts of light and 278 watts of heat.
> 
> Go to the led section and look at older threads. The side by side has been done to death.


 for many Jedi growers heat is important are you aware for every 10 degrees in heat the metabolic or plant growth rates doubles no wonder when i look at my 2 week old clones transplanted there usually double the size of any cob let alone most plant 
@ 4 week old there is no comparison 

Lets do the math seriously what are 400 watt cob units getting ??? looking at most grows there getting what 1.5 now one can say well that 400 is replacing a 600 watt Hid 
So 1.5 with 400 watt now i will make sure i post my final results under 600 hid i am sure i will hit 900 grams 
Was talking to old buddy Heath the other day he we both chuckled going to be a long time before we see over 2.2 

i did 1.8 with 2000 watts mag ballast 
Just trying to say is cob alone is not going to get you better Yields that is plain thinking stupid shit lot more that needs to be addressed like VPD , proper C02 uptake awe shit not even going to get into it 
lol still waiting on mechontronics heat sinks but presently erecting a green house and getting out door ready will fuck around with cob in fall lol and do a side by side hell maybe side by side green house grow but for now its get green house up and playing with some soils trying some different things this year like using Urea and some Anhydrous Ammonia with nitrification inhibitors so got lots of soil to make 25 plants 300 gallons of soil each


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

at the end of the day its all about this right


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## hyroot (Mar 7, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> for many Jedi growers heat is important are you aware for every 10 degrees in heat the metabolic or plant growth rates doubles no wonder when i look at my 2 week old clones transplanted there usually double the size of any cob let alone most plant
> @ 4 week old there is no comparison
> 
> Lets do the math seriously what are 400 watt cob units getting ??? looking at most grows there getting what 1.5 now one can say well that 400 is replacing a 600 watt Hid
> ...



Yes. The 10 degree temp increase on the leafs surface doesn't necessarily mean ambient temp. You can use 730 nm IR light to increase leaf temp on the leaf surface but also need to increase co2 levels as well.

Unless we're growing the exact same strain / pheno with exact same medium and methods. You can't compare yield from your grow to mine.


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

where does it end right ?? lets not forget experience into the equation of course people are going to see a difference in growth when tey were growing with UFO's , mars or a 400 watt hid mind you 400's are like watching fucking paint dry lol 
Here 76 plant 1 k parobolic Co2 enriched sealed well over 1 oz per plant were does it end by the way that was way over 2.27 GPW


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

or 5 x 5 4 plant 1 k


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

So again i stress do or use what works best for your situation just tired of cob growers always trying to run down Hid lights as Hid destroyers i rather find it really amusing i mean here 2 pictures guess which one is was grown with Cob lmao and which one under HID look at realstyles video;s buds size of his thumbs just saying 

Keep er green folks


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## hyroot (Mar 7, 2016)

460 watts of induction and led with a week left. 2 plants. All no till. 5 years old soil


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

lol 400 watt T5


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

660 watt DE  week 7 closet grow lol


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 7, 2016)

week 6 660 DE closet grow


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## DonBrennon (Mar 8, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> week 6 660 DE closet grow View attachment 3626276


Big fat chemically grown bud..............well done............what are you doing in this thread though?.................apart from trolling?............ Put your cock away and add something positive for a change


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## testiclees (Mar 8, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> dude don't go there i probably thrown more weed away then most will ever grow lol seriously


Wretched idiot braggart.


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## littlejacob (Mar 8, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> week 6 660 DE closet grow View attachment 3626276


Bonjour
There's something I don't understand...maybe because I am French!??)...why everyone have better results with cobs but not you?
You say you pull 2gpw with hps so with cobs well spaced (1foot) in your tent you should pull 3gpw in same conditions! 
Why everybody have better crops with cobs?
And all the grow we saw wasn't 5 weeks old nor organic!
But you are the kind of guy who prefer quantity over quality...I don't...and if you compare the side costs and the time you spend in your grow room I pull twice your gpw...lol!
Keep things like this...
CU


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## a mongo frog (Mar 8, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> There's something I don't understand...maybe because I am French!??)...why everyone have better results with cobs but not you?
> You say you pull 2gpw with hps so with cobs well spaced (1foot) in your tent you should pull 3gpw in same conditions!
> Why everybody have better crops with cobs?
> ...


Your pulling yields like he does? You may not like the dudes attitude or way he goes about some things, but be honest. That dude can garden.


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## littlejacob (Mar 8, 2016)

Bonjour
I never said he can't...but with chem...!
He add CO2 put a lot of fert it is a commercial grow...the weed you don't want to smoke that's why you grow your own now...lol!
But yes it is really big bud from a great production strain...I agree!
But what I wanted to say is that I am sure that with 1000w of cxb3590 @1400mA in the same growroom he could do better than with his hps I bet on it!
CU


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 8, 2016)

littlejacob said:


> Bonjour
> I never said he can't...but with chem...!
> He add CO2 put a lot of fert it is a commercial grow...the weed you don't want to smoke that's why you grow your own now...lol!
> But yes it is really big bud from a great production strain...I agree!
> ...


 Bonjour mon choo choo now i have grown Chemical like every person in the world,, and the pea soup your eating for supper i would bet is chemically grown you guess is its chemically grown right ?? 
what if i told you its sea compost , sheep manure, peatmoss, masonry sand and chicken shit ??? 
You know 10 years ago i was telling people and yes even on this site how i used a 50 gallon drum half full of water , threw in all my veggie scraps used a drill stirred the fuck out of it strained and had over 2000 ppm of plant food which of course i needed to water back to my 650 - 800 max PPM for compete grow 

Again its not about having bad luck with Cobs shit i have not put any together yet i do have full spectrum of cobs just sitting for now its spring time so out door work is being done right 

But one could say well shit how in the fuck can 36 percent Eff HID make monster buds like that and yet not one fucking cob grow i see nothing and i mean nothing close 
Jacob please be my guest show us your cob grow buds put a something beside it so everyone can see 
i mean i seen some pictures of grows and was like wow them buds re big only to eventually see they were the size of my left nut 

Again i think i am proving a point here i mean fucking forget about the brightness of a light means shit its what it hammers down as in umol and if cob is surely blowing hid out in that Department then bud size and GURTH would be a known factor but is it 
Or why has all cob growers tend to grow low yielding OG small bud size grows lol if you catch my drift 
Cause if you think this is impressive if you seen some of my grows your Jaws would Drop


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 8, 2016)

Like i said was making home made plant food in to days terms Called teas like 10 years ago and getting laughed at o lol ironic guess should of patented the idea lol 
but today Tea's are the craze 

Don Brennan why am i here to teach and school the the newbs like your self i make soils plant and walk away let mother nature water them soil does rather well as well as trees 
here water only kinda gives you a idea 

I just Get offensive when i here cob this cob that lol and i really do not see seriously anything overly impressive 
its like saying Vertical out yields Horizontal ???? An If that was the case you know with the 135 percent more space more light etc blah blah BS and vertical out yielded Horizontal by the percentage numbers of 135 percent there be no fucking Debate ,, but when looking all the documented grows on the internet one can soon figure out its not the higher yielder its actually less and that is from averages of every documented vertical grow on the internet . 
Just saying 
But Again its not what it can produce its the possibilities of what it can 
and most importantly what way works best for your situation that is KEY to your success

Anyways Yum Yum lol getting back to work on the BB strain for the summer Mongo pM me send you seeds bro 

PS : you guys got to realize not trying to start a fight cob vs HID i really do not give a crap really i do not i am just patiently waiting for them monster buds pictures to come out from a COB grow which i have yet to see like donkey diks and huge Buds seen pretty regularly with HID grows


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## Blunted 4 lyfe (Mar 8, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> Like i said was making home made plant food in to days terms Called teas like 10 years ago and getting laughed at o lol ironic guess should of patented the idea lol
> but today Tea's are the craze
> 
> Don Brennan why am i here to teach and school the the newbs like your self i make soils plant and walk away let mother nature water them soil does rather well as well as trees
> ...





b4L


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## hyroot (Mar 8, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> Bonjour mon choo choo now i have grown Chemical like every person in the world,, and the pea soup your eating for supper i would bet is chemically grown you guess is its chemically grown right ??
> what if i told you its sea compost , sheep manure, peatmoss, masonry sand and chicken shit ???
> You know 10 years ago i was telling people and yes even on this site how i used a 50 gallon drum half full of water , threw in all my veggie scraps used a drill stirred the fuck out of it strained and had over 2000 ppm of plant food which of course i needed to water back to my 650 - 800 max PPM for compete grow
> 
> ...



You've only been on this site less than a year. You're talking out your ass. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. This is why everyone in here is laughing at you. Most of what you say makes zero sense. Most of these pics are from different growers. So just stop. No one is feeding your b.s. anymore.


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## Rrog (Mar 9, 2016)

I just leave him on ignore. Way too much BS is right. On all fronts. Thread after thread


----------



## Blunted 4 lyfe (Mar 9, 2016)

So the man likes to toot his own horn what's wrong with that? Heck the GOP front runner for President does it all the time, give the man his props he deserves it.

B4L


----------



## DonPetro (Mar 9, 2016)

DonTesla said:


> All natural, 100% Pest-free sativa doms on Day 27
> 
> 
> .. Vero's causing major hash buildup on the canopy thermometer
> ...


Less than 480 watts of Vero 18 less than 4 weeks in.


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 9, 2016)

Let's not talk politics now...there are threads for that. Back to rols....I'm mixing up coots mix today. I'll keep you guys posted on my progress. Plants are alllll ready looking better just by switching soil....something had to happen in that last garbage bin I made up.

The first 2 were fine but #3....booty. literally killed my girl scout cookie forum...never had a plant completely die on me...


----------



## Blunted 4 lyfe (Mar 9, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Let's not talk politics now...there are threads for that. Back to rols....I'm mixing up coots mix today. I'll keep you guys posted on my progress. Plants are alllll ready looking better just by switching soil....something had to happen in that last garbage bin I made up.
> 
> The first 2 were fine but #3....booty. literally killed my girl scout cookie forum...never had a plant completely die on me...


Don't worry I won't talk politics I was making an analogy.

B4L


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 9, 2016)

hyroot said:


> You've only been on this site less than a year. You're talking out your ass. You obviously don't know what you are talking about. This is why everyone in here is laughing at you. Most of what you say makes zero sense. Most of these pics are from different growers. So just stop. No one is feeding your b.s. anymore.


 Awe wrong actually i used to be a Mod on this site like 9 years ago in all seriousness And thats no shit that was back when it was totally illegal to grow and was doing stupid sized multi grow rooms  There are a few that know me and remember me from then and really it does not matter
That was the past 

Hey Don nice Vero grow here is pure power @ 3 Weeks from flip of course under Hid


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## AllDayToker (Mar 10, 2016)

How dry do you guys let your soil get? I know you're not suppose to let them get super dry because it kills off your microbes.

But I was feeling I was letting them get to try and now I feel like I'm watering too much hahaha.

Kind of hard to do the lift test with the 10 gallons. And one plant seems to dry out quicker then the other


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## ForRealz (Mar 10, 2016)

AllDayToker said:


> How dry do you guys let your soil get? I know you're not suppose to let them get super dry because it kills off your microbes.
> 
> But I was feeling I was letting them get to try and now I feel like I'm watering too much hahaha.
> 
> Kind of hard to do the lift test with the 10 gallons. And one plant seems to dry out quicker then the other


Try this: stick your finger bout an inch or two into soil, then pull your finger out and examine it...if there is soil stuck to your finger (like cake batter on toothpick) then wait to water...also you can smell your finger if you are still uncertain...strong earthy smell means dont water, very little smell means water.


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## AllDayToker (Mar 10, 2016)

ForRealz said:


> Try this: stick your finger bout an inch or two into soil, then pull your finger out and examine it...if there is soil stuck to your finger (like cake batter on toothpick) then wait to water...also you can smell your finger if you are still uncertain...strong earthy smell means dont water, very little smell means water.


Awesome info thanks.

Yeah I have one of those moisture meters but idk what the numbers mean besides 10 is wet and 0 is dry haha


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Mar 11, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> lol 400 watt T5View attachment 3626272


How you like those blumats? just ordered a medium size kit.


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 11, 2016)

Blumats kick ass best investment for novice To Jedi growers there pricey but again will give me piece of mind knowing they will take care of plants when they need it the most....

I will be starting a thread shortly where i will be showing how i am making raised 6000 thousand liter or close to 1600 gallon drip system for green house grow started area where i will have under ground plumbing etc its top notch lol 6 - 1000 liter tanks as well as actual erecting new green house watering system beside Green house 
The green house will be all solor as in extraction fans enviromental controllers etc i mean every thing
plans are 132 gallon per plant no till raised bed using them caged 1000 liter liquid totes will be cutting them in half so clean neat and possibly on dollies ( movable or rotatable ) 
got some really cool things i am doing going to open some peoples eyes promise you that
picture of totes i am talking about

May be some day i will be as good as Hyroot at growing haha anyways my Not till indoor garden yes HYroot my indoor ,,,, garden lol 2 plants under 600 watt not even half way done super healthy make sure to post you harvest pics and what plant looks or suppose to look like even on chop day 

PS: Its the Year to school many and teach them a new level of Jedi growing enough with Mid grade growers specially like That Root guy 

Cheers everyone


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## coughphee.connoiseur (Mar 12, 2016)

Now thats fuckin righteous ( pardon my french)…. How much you charge for blue prints and design?


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 18, 2016)

Anyone ever seen root aphids in a rols grow? Today I was cutting some lower branches in veg and saw these little whitish bugs that looked like a larger type of spider mite. I have had spider mites and know these are not them. I aldo have a worm bin that have smaller white mites in it but they don't appear to be slow moving like these are.

If they are root aphids, how would one go about killing them in their rols grow? I'll try to see if I see anymore and TRY to take a pic and post it, thanks!

Forgot to mention they were just crawling around the pot edge not the plant. Havnt seen any in soil or around plant yet

Didnt find any in the catch trays either


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## Mohican (Mar 18, 2016)

Get a picture and post it or look it up on Google.


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 18, 2016)

Already tried google. I smashed the first two bugs as soon as I saw them. Havnt seen anymore. Will post if I do


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 18, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Anyone ever seen root aphids in a rols grow? Today I was cutting some lower branches in veg and saw these little whitish bugs that looked like a larger type of spider mite. I have had spider mites and know these are not them. I aldo have a worm bin that have smaller white mites in it but they don't appear to be slow moving like these are.
> 
> If they are root aphids, how would one go about killing them in their rols grow? I'll try to see if I see anymore and TRY to take a pic and post it, thanks!
> 
> ...


Google springtails. They are a small white bug that are prevalent in worm bins/organic soil.


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## DonBrennon (Mar 18, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Google springtails. They are a small white bug that are prevalent in worm bins/organic soil.


Gotta love those springtails, if they ain't breaking shit down into available nute's for worms and plants, they're providing grazing for predators, keeping the predators going and becoming available nute's as poop themselves in the process, all part of the web in rols/no till


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## DonBrennon (Mar 18, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Gotta love those springtails, if they ain't breaking shit down into available nute's for worms and plants, they're providing grazing for predators, keeping the predators going and becoming available nute's as poop themselves in the process, all part of the web in rols/no till


There must also be a small amount of chitin released from their exoskeleton in the process...............bonus


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 18, 2016)

There are a ton of different pictures. 1 kinda resembles it. I'll keep an eye out if I seem them again I'll make sure to snap a pic.

They looked like an aphid to me but will keep you guys posted


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## DonBrennon (Mar 18, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> There are a ton of different pictures. 1 kinda resembles it. I'll keep an eye out if I seem them again I'll make sure to snap a pic.
> 
> They looked like an aphid to me but will keep you guys posted


Do they fly?.......... or just disappear? LOL springtails are usually easily identified by their actions, they're both fast runners and can spring their tail to commit a truly Olympic athletic fete. eg disappear.


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 18, 2016)

No flight, I saw them for all about 4 seconds before I squashed and it looked just like what a spider mite looks like under a scope with a white, slightly clear body just slowly walking on the rI'm of the pot. Also had a short abdomen where springtails appear to have a long one compared to the pics I've seen. 

Anyone had root aphids before. From Googling I would hate my life if they are...


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## st0wandgrow (Mar 19, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> No flight, I saw them for all about 4 seconds before I squashed and it looked just like what a spider mite looks like under a scope with a white, slightly clear body just slowly walking on the rI'm of the pot. Also had a short abdomen where springtails appear to have a long one compared to the pics I've seen.
> 
> Anyone had root aphids before. From Googling I would hate my life if they are...


Hypoaspis Miles? 

Do a google image search for that. Could be what you have...and if so you're golden. Those are beneficial mites that actually consume gnat/aphid larvae.


----------



## Organicgrow42 (Mar 19, 2016)

It looked a lot like that! If I could have 1 thing go my way this year, that would be great! Hope they are those! If I see them I'm posting a pic, I know I can get a good shot of them


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## bizfactory (Mar 21, 2016)

Anyone have any suggestions? Can't quite figure this one out. I had similar looking leaves towards the end of flower last time and just chalked it up to fading / dying since it was at the very end.




2nd round of 15 gallon no-till
top dressed with light kelp, alfalfa, neem/karanja and ewc about 2 weeks ago
problems showed up about 5 days ago after I stopped running the humidifier 
Blumats have been dialed in for months, I haven't really made any changes there but they are constantly moist to keep the soil and worms alive
COBs at least 18" inches away
Temp range about 68F to 80F in night vs day

Originally I figured the humidity got too low after I went on a work trip and stopped filling the humidifier. The humidity dropped to about 20-30%. Two days ago I did some research and concluded it was a low humidity making the leaves a bit ridgey, the serrated leaf tips pointed up and just overall droopiness. The leaves actually feel a bit dry too. I fired the humidifier back up, rH went to about 40%. I actually turned it up higher and have been sitting at 50-60% for a day but the plants looked a lot worse. Way more drop and claw shape.

Now I'm second guessing what is actually wrong! Humidity? I was thinking maybe a agsil16h / aloe foliar might cheer them up but I'll have to wait till tonight to spray them. Any thoughts?


----------



## DonBrennon (Mar 21, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Anyone have any suggestions? Can't quite figure this one out. I had similar looking leaves towards the end of flower last time and just chalked it up to fading / dying since it was at the very end.
> 
> View attachment 3637346View attachment 3637347View attachment 3637348
> 
> ...


My first thought when i see claw like that is over watering, I'd like to hear other opinions though


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## DonBrennon (Mar 21, 2016)

@bizfactory ............check this out, I think you'll agree......http://www.growweedeasy.com/overwatering.................maybe you need to tone back the blumats a little if possible, not sure, never used em.

edit............on second thoughts, I'd turn the blumat's off completely until the plants perk up again


----------



## bizfactory (Mar 21, 2016)

Ok, someone has also mentioned over watering but there is no run-off from the blumats so I figured it would be good. That would be a pretty easy fix if it's just too much water.


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 21, 2016)

I know this are barely in flower but plants use less water at the end so maybe that's why you got that at the end last time.

My first thought for your pictures was over watering also


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## bizfactory (Mar 22, 2016)

They looked much better last night but droppy again in the morning. I turned the blumats down and hit them with a weak aloe and agsil foliar.


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 22, 2016)

I don't know much about bluemats...which ones do you use for what gallon capacity?


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## bizfactory (Mar 22, 2016)

The reservoir size doesn't really matter but it's around 13 gallons. I use 2x Blumat Maxi spikes in each 15 gallon geo pot.


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## Organicgrow42 (Mar 22, 2016)

Have you used them long? How many runs?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 22, 2016)

Never been a fan of auto watering, never seems to quite nail what a plant needs 100% as they drink more or less depending on a wide set of variables. Subirrigated planters work much better though.


----------



## Rrog (Mar 22, 2016)

I'm a big fan. As long as the drip is based on need, not a timer.


----------



## elkamino (Mar 22, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Subirrigated planters work much better though.


Do you use them with success? I'm a tired-of-it hand-waterer...


----------



## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 22, 2016)

I have seen many people run into issues with the standard coot neem/karanja, kelp, alfalfa, ewc, regime. 

I first saw it with people in warehouses, and now am seeing it more in smaller growers. I personally don't use neem or karanja. I also top dress much different things than the people following the Coot paradigm. 

My base top dress is fish meal, crab shells, kelp, alfalfa, azomite/basalt

I also use lavender, rosemary, nettles, comfrey, willow bark, yarrow, patchouli, and horsetail. 

Here is a picture right before flipping. I have only top dressed my base mix, no plant based top dress yet.


----------



## Rrog (Mar 22, 2016)

Please show us how Coots recipes are causing people to run into issues.

Anyone else out there having a bad time following Coots advice? Anyone?


----------



## tyke1973 (Mar 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> Please show us how Coots recipes are causing people to run into issues.
> 
> Anyone else out there having a bad time following Coots advice? Anyone?


Look on you tube mendo dope do a great thread about living soil,really interesting the guy gives you a few organic tea options too,also a great thread that hunters of dank that jill does with a guy showing how to get high grade full melt sift from dry ice and using bubble bag's,time wreck one is just un real,put it this way i'm doing it with my next lot of trim and all the small buds


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> Please show us how Coots recipes are causing people to run into issues.
> 
> Anyone else out there having a bad time following Coots advice? Anyone?


I can't show you as I don't use coots method. I have seen people have issues though. 

I have seen people have great success with some of coot's methods. I have also seen people have to stop using the methods because of issues. There is no one answer for everyone.


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## Rrog (Mar 22, 2016)

I call Bullshit


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## tyke1973 (Mar 22, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> I have seen many people run into issues with the standard coot neem/karanja, kelp, alfalfa, ewc, regime.
> 
> I first saw it with people in warehouses, and now am seeing it more in smaller growers. I personally don't use neem or karanja. I also top dress much different things than the people following the Coot paradigm.
> 
> ...


Now that is a colorful nugget


----------



## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I call Bullshit


Ok. That is your prerogative. I learned long ago not to fight with people on forums.


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## elkamino (Mar 22, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> Ok. That is your prerogative. I learned long ago not to fight with people on forums.


Along with learning not to fight on forums did you also learn to not do drive-by badmouthings of people? People who likely taught you things as a grower?

If you don't back up what you said, you come off as a shit talker, which I wouldn't expect from an advertiser, because its rude, maybe ruder than fighting, and would turn me off to your glass.

Instead be productive, elaborate on what the problems are you're referring to. I'm suspicious of your accusation but I would hear you out. My soil has morphed with time, started off as Subcool's but has been for 2 years turning into Coot's. Mostly my nugs rock but sometimes I have problems, but I'm only half-assed about ROLS as I break up my soil each run and don't run no-till. So there's variables but I was hoping you had some substance... in keeping with the first 365 pages of this thread. So please, elaborate, even if its just what you heard.

Obviously many here keep CC on a pedestal- from where he can only fall. I don't know him but I bet h'd be the first to ttell you that he still doesn't quite have everything perfectly dialed. Things keep happening, he and you and I all keep learning.

What you got?


----------



## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 22, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Along with learning not to fight on forums did you also learn to not do drive-by badmouthings of people? People who likely taught you things as a grower?
> 
> If you don't back up what you said, you come off as a shit talker, which I wouldn't expect from an advertiser, because its rude, maybe ruder than fighting, and would turn me off to your glass.
> 
> ...


All true. Unfortunately people put Coot, and others on pedestals as if they were gods. I come from a standard organic agriculture background. Not growing cannabis. Cannabis is only one of the things I grow. In standard agriculture coot's practices are a non-starter. Have you ever seen a farmer spray a hundred acre's of corn with aloe? Have you ever seen 20 acres of tomatos top dressed with malted barley? You get the drift. 

I have conversed with coot(on social media). I do not hide what I say, and I do not change what I say because of a supposed status a person has. I was the one that tested neem cake, and have successfully grown fungus gnats in it. completely contrary to what everyone talks about. I first did this 4 years ago. Thus I don;t use it. 

Right now, coot's style is the current fad with the cannabis growers. It will change. It always does.


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## Rrog (Mar 22, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I use 2x Blumat Maxi spikes in each 15 gallon geo pot.


How's that working? Do you feel you could use one Maxi and several drippers?


----------



## bizfactory (Mar 22, 2016)

Rrog said:


> How's that working? Do you feel you could use one Maxi and several drippers?


Well, so far so good but the sides could use a bit more even spread with the distribution drippers. I actually have a bunch of those but never hooked them up.

I dialed the spiked down this morning, so if they continue to look better and better, maybe the solution is 2 maxis turned down but with 3 distro drippers each. 6 total drip points around the pot. The reason I never actually used the distros is just because they are tiny and you pretty much need to have them elevated to stay out of the mulch and any top dressing.


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## Rrog (Mar 22, 2016)

I used the little distributor holders, and they work pretty well, I thought.


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## Rrog (Mar 22, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Along with learning not to fight on forums did you also learn to not do drive-by badmouthings of people?


Just joined today and most of his 6 posts are to trash Coot. He can kiss my organic ass


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## elkamino (Mar 23, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> All true. Unfortunately people put Coot, and others on pedestals as if they were gods.


Of all the idolized people in this world. Coot is the one *RIU Advertiser MileHighGlassPipes* feels compelled to diss. Without substantiating.



MileHighGlassPipes said:


> I have seen many people run into issues with the standard coot neem/karanja, kelp, alfalfa, ewc, regime. I first saw it with people in warehouses, and now am seeing it more in smaller growers.





MileHighGlassPipes said:


> I can't show you as I don't use coots method. I have seen people have issues though.





Rrog said:


> Just joined today and most of his 6 posts are to trash Coot. He can kiss my organic ass


If you have joined to trash Coot, DO IT. Tell us what these "issues" are. I don't care if he's wrong about something, and if he is I wish you'd elaborate because we're al just putting this together as we go along. Neem has been good for me, and I never have a gnat problem, but maybe there's something better?

Of course you know Coots didn't discover neem, wasn't the first to suggest it, isn't the reason there's an international neem meal/oil industry, right?

Anyway. What do you bring to the ROLS thread except rumors? All you got is that you "have seen many people with issues..."

I encourage you to back it up. Or shut up. Advance the thread or go elsewhere.


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## MistaRasta (Mar 23, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> All true. Unfortunately people put Coot, and others on pedestals as if they were gods. I come from a standard organic agriculture background. Not growing cannabis. Cannabis is only one of the things I grow. In standard agriculture coot's practices are a non-starter. Have you ever seen a farmer spray a hundred acre's of corn with aloe? Have you ever seen 20 acres of tomatos top dressed with malted barley? You get the drift.
> 
> I have conversed with coot(on social media). I do not hide what I say, and I do not change what I say because of a supposed status a person has. I was the one that tested neem cake, and have successfully grown fungus gnats in it. completely contrary to what everyone talks about. I first did this 4 years ago. Thus I don;t use it.
> 
> Right now, coot's style is the current fad with the cannabis growers. It will change. It always does.



What fad will be next? In all honesty theirs' only so many amendments and ways to use them.. I started out with super soil, figured out I don't like all the dirty amendments so I opted for coots mix and Come out with a much cleaner smoother product..

Tbh, it's not Coots' problem if people treat the guy like shit or treat him as a "God." The guy came to the cannabis community, shared his information and that's all he intended to do. Use his method or don't, but I bet you a mil you make a tweeked version of it..

I'm noticing a trend of hate towards neem, I think it's more-so the price tag. try to remember that we don't only use neem as an insecticide but for many other things as well..


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## Rrog (Mar 23, 2016)

And has been stated earlier, Coot simply assembled the methods. He refined a few things but hit the web with science. 

So saying Coot is a trend is like saying science is a fad.


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 23, 2016)

Coots techniques have been peer reviewed by leading research universities, and third party verified by unbiased testing facilities?

Its funny when you go against the trends how people react.

I'm trashing coot? OK.... I never said one thing about coot personally. I am questioning the validity of some of his techniques. 

As have many other people. I will repeat myself as it seems some people shut off their ears when someone says something the don't agree with.

I have seen people have good results, and I have seen people have not so good of results. There are a million ways to skin a cat, its your choice on how to do that.


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## Rrog (Mar 23, 2016)

Again, not Coots techniques, as much as they are Coots assemblage of techniques. 

Otherwise, his recommendations are always based on peer reviewed data. 

To say otherwise is to either not understand or there's some other agenda afoot


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## elkamino (Mar 23, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> Its funny when you go against the trends how people react.


Funny? _Trends? _You still haven't substantiated anything, shit-talker. Like most others I come here to learn, not to try and pry something substantive from thoughtless, dime-a-dozen dooshbags.



MileHighGlassPipes said:


> I have seen people have good results, and I have seen people have not so good of results.


So... you've "seen" some good grows, some bad grows, won't discuss em but still assume the problems lie in the soil recipe and not environment, lights, grower attentiveness, etc. Brilliant analysis

You're a shit-talking troll with nothing to offer except a holier-than-thou attitude and bad-juju glass, *RIU Advertiser MileHighGlassPipes*. <>_IGNORE_<>


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## genuity (Mar 23, 2016)

When I first ran Coots nutrient kit, it was not mixed for a sunshine#4 type medium. ...but in a pure soil base,it rocks the boat for sure...

Now they got the mix for #4 type medium mix,and it is just fine..


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 23, 2016)

The only problems that arise from coots mix are wet works errors. The same arguments against coot are the same arguments I hear about organics, i.e. "I fucked up now I'm going to blame the method". Which isn't to say Coots method(s) are perfect, nothing is, absolutes are bullshit. 
I see people bash notill all the time because they can't grow monster plants in 1 gallon planters. "WTF muh plantz r yelowing 1st week of 1212. plz halp!!1"
The biggest issue in all seriousness is that people don't understand what QUALITY means in regards to compost. You can't cut corners and expect gold from shit, this isn't alchemy as much as some of the community would like it to be. Coots methods are quantitative by our current tech, they're measurable and proven effective. He's not some internet joe schmo pulling up pdfs and reading til he can grasp it, this is something he has a formal education in for crying out loud lol. He's definitely not a god, he can even be a bit of an ass when you talk to him online (Join the club haha), but his knowledge is accurate and definitely effective.


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## Rrog (Mar 23, 2016)

Sure sounds like someone is butthurt from an embarrassing online encounter from long ago


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## 2ANONYMOUS (Mar 23, 2016)

Rrog said:


> How's that working? Do you feel you could use one Maxi and several drippers?


 I am trying to figure out how to or what i can use to monitor 300 gallons of soil blumats are ok for top but looking at other alternatives for deep soil moisture and monitoring 

Depth and amount of irrigation,
Root activity and development,
Extent of watertables within or just below a crop's root zone,
Irrigation timing and forecasting based on water use (known as irrigation scheduling),
Movement of solutes (salts) through the soil profile,
Soil temperature.
This is what i am in search for presently for my green house this year blumats are great but i want deep water feeding instead of just top i want to know my root activity and development as well as bunch more 

So if anyone has any ideas or grows almond trees there using this tech i need to speak with you please pm me 

Anyways couple updates getting all my solar panels up n running for green house power etc pumps exhaust fans and monitoring equipment auto feed running 6000
liters of totes Water and also couple pictures of my No till flowering girls green house will be no till water only and my nutrient line i am making and hoping to market in next year or so 
a new meaning to Liquid Gold 100 % pure vegan organic nute line so far it appears to be kicking ass lol but green house grow is the documented grow with variety of veggies as well one feed every 2 weeks till harvest. from start to finish on any veggie or house plant she will be amazing  
just like my flowering girls my nutes which i hope to market can go from 150 ppm to 2000 ppm and stay ph constant 6.5


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## elkamino (Mar 23, 2016)

2ANONYMOUS said:


> I am trying to figure out how to or what i can use to monitor 300 gallons of soil blumats are ok for top but looking at other alternatives for deep soil moisture and monitoring
> 
> Depth and amount of irrigation,
> Root activity and development,
> ...


SUPER impressive @2ANONYMOUS and good luck on the product release and timeline. 

Willing to share what will be in your vegan nute line?  Or what will be listed on the label?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2016)

Alright guys, ran into something that's mostly got me scratching my head. I've got a pretty sativa heavy pheno of dark shadow haze from raredankness that at about 2-3 weeks in flower all the pistils died back and almost no additional growth gas taken place since (I've found literally less than 15 on the whole plant that aren't dead and shriveled. 
At week 2 I found a small amount of spider mites roaming around my tent, I believe from some comfrey/herbs I used as a topdress. Gave every plant a light neem, garlic, aloe foliar the first day then just aloe and silica for the next 10 days with some essential oils from herbs tossed in occassionally (homegrown,m not the uber concentrated stuff you buy from a vendor). After that I haven't seen a single mite or egg, I really would know as I spent an hour per plant a night using my loupe to look for them. All my other girls actually seemed to benefit from the foliars. But the haze from RD didn't or possibly the mites did more damage than I thought?
I don't really know. All I know is that there is no visible damage except the receded pistils. Leaves are carrying a bit more N than I'd like but I think that's because she's been stalled out for weeks now. Dunno.
Little disapointed in essentially loosing a heavy sat like this but I'm really more curious as to what's REALLY happening. 

Any ideas?


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 24, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Alright guys, ran into something that's mostly got me scratching my head. I've got a pretty sativa heavy pheno of dark shadow haze from raredankness that at about 2-3 weeks in flower all the pistils died back and almost no additional growth gas taken place since (I've found literally less than 15 on the whole plant that aren't dead and shriveled.
> At week 2 I found a small amount of spider mites roaming around my tent, I believe from some comfrey/herbs I used as a topdress. Gave every plant a light neem, garlic, aloe foliar the first day then just aloe and silica for the next 10 days with some essential oils from herbs tossed in occassionally (homegrown,m not the uber concentrated stuff you buy from a vendor). After that I haven't seen a single mite or egg, I really would know as I spent an hour per plant a night using my loupe to look for them. All my other girls actually seemed to benefit from the foliars. But the haze from RD didn't or possibly the mites did more damage than I thought?
> I don't really know. All I know is that there is no visible damage except the receded pistils. Leaves are carrying a bit more N than I'd like but I think that's because she's been stalled out for weeks now. Dunno.
> Little disapointed in essentially loosing a heavy sat like this but I'm really more curious as to what's REALLY happening.
> ...


Have you flowered her before, or is this the first time running her? 

I have seen burnt pistols with heavier neem, esenstial oils, pyrethrin, etc., However it doesn't sound like you did anything that would have done. that.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> Have you flowered her before, or is this the first time running her?
> 
> I have seen burnt pistols with heavier neem, esenstial oils, pyrethrin, etc., However it doesn't sound like you did anything that would have done. that.


First time, she's from seed too. There's a part of me that wants to blame the seed bank because every seed from them has been wack. The Durban Poison is throwing verigated growth, the afghanis from them did the same with fasciated growth and stalled at the end of bloom, other beans didn't make it past the seedling stage without dying or showing horrible mutations. But I'd rather say it was my error before I blame another person.
I was ready to bkame the neem at first but it was such a light solution that Idk how that would be possible unless this pheno was just a super sensitive sativa


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## Mohican (Mar 24, 2016)

I have heard of neem burning pistols.


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 24, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> First time, she's from seed too. There's a part of me that wants to blame the seed bank because every seed from them has been wack. The Durban Poison is throwing verigated growth, the afghanis from them did the same with fasciated growth and stalled at the end of bloom, other beans didn't make it past the seedling stage without dying or showing horrible mutations. But I'd rather say it was my error before I blame another person.
> I was ready to bkame the neem at first but it was such a light solution that Idk how that would be possible unless this pheno was just a super sensitive sativa


That's why I asked. usually when you burn with neem it's all of the plants. Being that it is just that plant I was going to suggest genetics. Only way to tell for sure is flower her again. That is assuming you made cuts of here.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 24, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> That's why I asked. usually when you burn with neem it's all of the plants. Being that it is just that plant I was going to suggest genetics. Only way to tell for sure is flower her again. That is assuming you made cuts of here.


That's about what I've arrived at thinking. Never kept cuts as they all took ove two weeks to root. Figured if I liked the genetics I'd grab a pack from a better vendor to sort through.


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## MistaRasta (Mar 27, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> That's about what I've arrived at thinking. Never kept cuts as they all took ove two weeks to root. Figured if I liked the genetics I'd grab a pack from a better vendor to sort through.



I've noticed that A LOT of strains are sensitive to neem oil. Especially the og/ haze types..

I used 1 TBS neem oil my first time spraying and it didn't go well. My sour kush (which was all sour diesel) started flowering out and shooting one leaf sets like she hated life. My whitefires right next to them got a little messed up but they weren't nearly as angry as my sour.

They all lived and went on to veg and flower normally, but from that point on I promised my self to never use that much neem again. Now I use 1-1.5 tsp per gallon with no ill effect. I also only spray half as much as I used to. Once a month vs twice a month.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 29, 2016)

Built a new soil mix this winter and wanted to see how far I could push it. The top two pictures are of the same plant in a 10g fabric planter the last two are the same plant that's in a 5g. Vegged for around two and a half months. Only watered with aloe, coconut water, agsil16, and humic acid. They got one kelp/alfalfa tea mid bloom about day 20. Topdresses have only been powdered malt barley and growkashi. Foliars were only aloe, agsil16, neem, and my own herbal blend. Only problem I ran into was a slight N def in the Durban Poison that was only in the 5g. 

If anyone wants to add something to their arsenal that really gets shit going in your soil life, use malted barley. Coot wasn't kidding when he said it'll ramp up enzyme activity. Normally the first pictured strain will go about 10-13 weeks and it's on day 61 now and will come down in less than a week.


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## DonBrennon (Mar 29, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If anyone wants to add something to their arsenal that really gets shit going in your soil life, use malted barley. Coot wasn't kidding when he said it'll ramp up enzyme activity. Normally the first pictured strain will go about 10-13 weeks and it's on day 61 now and will come down in less than a week.


Do you use the diastatic malted barley powder?...............I've just found some malted barley power at a real nice price, but it was non-diastatic, so I searched the difference between non-diastatic and diastatic, this was the answer I found

A simple answer - Diastatic malt contains active enzymes.
Non-diastatic has no active enzymes
and is used for flavor (like molasses would be used).

So for anyone else searching for malted barley powder, make sure it's diastatic

Another question.................How much are you topdressing in those 5 & 10 Gals?


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 29, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Do you use the diastatic malted barley powder?...............I've just found some malted barley power at a real nice price, but it was non-diastatic, so I searched the difference between non-diastatic and diastatic, this was the answer I found
> 
> A simple answer - Diastatic malt contains active enzymes.
> Non-diastatic has no active enzymes
> ...


Well.. Now that you ask I have no idea.. It's briess two row organic malted barley so if anyone knows if it has active enzymes I'd appreciate. I'd really hope I haven't just been throwing barlow on top for no reason hahahaha.
I'm assuming it is. That or my mix is just on point this run. Either or I guess would make me feel good about myself haha. And you'll probably cringe a bit but since I got my barley when I was already in bloom I just decided to go with "about enough to moderately cover the soil mass" sooo like a half cup or so on the 10 gallons and like a third of a cup on the 5s? Don't quote me on that though (please) 

Owning a business is soaking up all of my time so I've kinda been winging it here and there when possible. Only thing that gets precise attention is measuring humic acids, how much water I give, and vdp.


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## bizfactory (Mar 29, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Only thing that gets precise attention is measuring humic acids, how much water I give, and vdp.


Yo, I feel like my droopy plant issue is related to VDP. When your VDP gets off, what do you notice from your plants? I am working on controlling the humidity better but it's tough when my furnace is in the same tiny crawl space as my tents...meaning when the furnace kicks on, it gets hotter and also sucks a lot of the moisture out of the ambient air and blats it through my house. 

What temps / humidity are you usually at? What is your variance between lights on / off?


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## Mohican (Mar 29, 2016)

I don't think N is as necessary as everybody thinks. You may have pale plants but your buds are frosty as Buffalo!


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 29, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Yo, I feel like my droopy plant issue is related to VDP. When your VDP gets off, what do you notice from your plants? I am working on controlling the humidity better but it's tough when my furnace is in the same tiny crawl space as my tents...meaning when the furnace kicks on, it gets hotter and also sucks a lot of the moisture out of the ambient air and blats it through my house.
> 
> What temps / humidity are you usually at? What is your variance between lights on / off?


Depends if vdp is too high or low and what's causing it. Typically I see issues when my rh is too low and I have cold swings; saggy ladies, overly purple/red stems, lower growth rate, drasticly less water consumption that causes you to overwater if you don't pay attention. Using a tent with an exhaust fan will always fuck up vdp because its creating a lot of negative pressure thus drawing out moisture so discussing vdp and tents is complex at best. My temps go from mid 60s (its dropped to 54 a handful of times) to upper 70s mid 80s during lights on. Sometimes I have a 25 degree twmp swing. Rh stays between 45 and 60. Sometimes venturing into the 70s or 80s at night if I water heavy before lights out. Right now its been riding between 35 and 45 mostly as the last weeks of bloom I water less and less until chop. Never to the point of stress but tapering off ime seems to improve taste and lessen cure times on indicas. I usually have a lot less variance but this new house fluxuates in temps and rh a lot when the seasons change.



Mohican said:


> I don't think N is as necessary as everybody thinks. You may have pale plants but your buds are frosty as Buffalo!


Neither do I, which is why my plants almost always look faded to heck at chop time. I may be wrong but in my experience letting a plant almost completely consume its excess reserves is important. A little cooler night temps, a little water starvation, and no N inputs unless necessary, like in my case where they started dropping way too much foliage by week 3. A lot of it was just because I'm only in a 10 gallon and 5 gallon planters with over 4 months of grow time under a 600w. And thank you! I always aim for cultivating trichomes over plant material. Weight is nice, but I'd rather say I grew x amount of cannabinoids than x amount of grams/lbs. The intent is medicine not profit


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## DonBrennon (Mar 29, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Owning a business is soaking up all of my time so I've kinda been winging it here and there when possible. Only thing that gets precise attention is measuring humic acids, how much water I give, and vdp.


I feel like a total noob..............and I've been growing a while.............but............what is vdp?.................I'm hoping it's a transatlantic thing, and we refer to it as something different


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## bizfactory (Mar 29, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I feel like a total noob..............and I've been growing a while.............but............what is vdp?.................I'm hoping it's a transatlantic thing, and we refer to it as something different


This sums it up pretty well. http://www.just4growers.com/stream/temperature-humidity-and-c02/vapor-pressure-deficit-the-hidden-force-on-your-plants.aspx

I'm in CO and if I don't blast humidity into my intake I am usually around 20-30% rH this time of year. I have been struggling to keep it over 60% to see if that stops the droopy leaves and slow growth. Hopefully in a few days i'll see an improvement from the higher rH but I'm not totally convinced that's the problem. The leaves do have a "dry" feeling to them, a rough texture for sure. I have actually set my fan to run in 15 minute increments but I'm also worried the temp rises too fast when it's off. Shooting up into mid 80s. I hate waiting!


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 29, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I feel like a total noob..............and I've been growing a while.............but............what is vdp?.................I'm hoping it's a transatlantic thing, and we refer to it as something different


Vapor pressure defecit. Typically only used in greenhouses. It factors in relative humidity, ambient temperature, canopy temperature, and projects the best alignment of those variables for optimal growing conditions that permit plants to "breathe" at the best levels. Essentially it measures the airs water pressure being exerted upon the plant or drawing from it. You'll have to pardan my half assed explaination I'm sick and foggy brained.


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## AllDayToker (Mar 30, 2016)

How do these trichs look? No amber in sight. I'm thinking I have at least 2 or 3 weeks on her still. She is a sativa heavy hybrid, so I expect her to take a little extra time. She is at 8 weeks today from flip to 12/12.

Let me know what you guys think.


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Mar 30, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> This sums it up pretty well. http://www.just4growers.com/stream/temperature-humidity-and-c02/vapor-pressure-deficit-the-hidden-force-on-your-plants.aspx
> 
> I'm in CO and if I don't blast humidity into my intake I am usually around 20-30% rH this time of year. I have been struggling to keep it over 60% to see if that stops the droopy leaves and slow growth. Hopefully in a few days i'll see an improvement from the higher rH but I'm not totally convinced that's the problem. The leaves do have a "dry" feeling to them, a rough texture for sure. I have actually set my fan to run in 15 minute increments but I'm also worried the temp rises too fast when it's off. Shooting up into mid 80s. I hate waiting!


I use to put a swamp cooler in my room to get the humidity up, but now I find it unnecessary. If you get your soil right(i do notill) the humiditiy is a non-issue in Colorado. When your plants are healthy they will thrive in most any conditions. Even when it's 16% humidity


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 30, 2016)

MileHighGlassPipes said:


> I use to put a swamp cooler in my room to get the humidity up, but now I find it unnecessary. If you get your soil right(i do notill) the humiditiy is a non-issue in Colorado. When your plants are healthy they will thrive in most any conditions. Even when it's 16% humidity


Well they won't thrive per se, but you won't see any big issues. Nail your vdp in a nice notill setup and growth is insaaane.


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## Mohican (Mar 30, 2016)

I find that most sativa strains will only go cloudy. I have left buds on a stump that six months later still had clear trichs!


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## AllDayToker (Mar 30, 2016)

Mohican said:


> I find that most sativa strains will only go cloudy. I have left buds on a stump that six months later still had clear trichs!


So think I should take a tester bud off and just see for myself on the sativa? I don't remember exactly how long I left it going last time I'll have to see if I can find out.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 30, 2016)

Mohican said:


> I find that most sativa strains will only go cloudy. I have left buds on a stump that six months later still had clear trichs!


Agreed! Before I lost my columbian landrace she would only partially turn cloudy if I dropped the timer down to less than 11 hours of light. Even then she would never really finish like a hybrid. A few new stigmas every few weeks and never an amber trich even after 100 days.


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## Midwest Weedist (Mar 31, 2016)

I'm curious if anyone here uses humic acid in their watering schedule?
I think I found something interesting. I have a couple plants in some older soil that needed some rock dusts and other amendments added to it as I fogot when I mixed up the batch for clones. Well I went ahead and just mixed them in with my normal water/humic acid that I normally add my aloe/coco/etc to. I had a half gallon or so left over and forgot about it for like a week. I ended up using it to water some of my moms and they seemed to love it more than my normal water/humic acids, as in explosive new growth that looks absolutely amazing. Now, could the humic acids and the rock ducts have reacted in some way to break them down further or?? This kind of science is over my head


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## Mohican (Mar 31, 2016)

Humic is like the stuff that comes out of good soil when you water it.


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## Michael Huntherz (Mar 31, 2016)

Mohican said:


> Humic is like the stuff that comes out of good soil when you water it.


That's a great description.


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## Joe Blows Trees (Mar 31, 2016)

Anyone know what type bug this is? Started seeing them after making my soil.


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## saiyaneye (Mar 31, 2016)

Joe Blows Trees said:


> View attachment 3646731
> 
> Anyone know what type bug this is? Started seeing them after making my soil.


I'd add some beneficial nematodes to you mix. Should take care of them.

How big is that bug? With it's head shape it looks like a gnat? But wings of a moth! wtf lol I have no idea.


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## Joe Blows Trees (Mar 31, 2016)

The nematodes should be here this weekend, hopefully. They're basically just annoying like gnats.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 1, 2016)

Mohican said:


> Humic is like the stuff that comes out of good soil when you water it.


Speaking of humic acid, this is why you don't supplement more than the recommended amounts lol. Strange stuff happens. I thought I had measured out more than I should have haha.


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## Mohican (Apr 1, 2016)

I know Fulvic is a once a year application.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 1, 2016)

Mohican said:


> I know Fulvic is a once a year application.


Ya know, I actually have never used fulvic acid. Makes me wonder if I'm missing out on something by not. Humic acid is an every watering "amendment" from what the directions on the package say. From what I understand of it is that it's essentially what defines a good soil in a lot of ways. Serious composters pay top dollars for testing on humic acids levels. I would imagine that notill planters that are successful after multiple cycles/years with minimal inputs are almost exclusively because of the humic contents from the continual decay of the organic matters in said planter. That and soil microbiology.


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## calliandra (Apr 2, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Ya know, I actually have never used fulvic acid. Makes me wonder if I'm missing out on something by not. Humic acid is an every watering "amendment" from what the directions on the package say. From what I understand of it is that it's essentially what defines a good soil in a lot of ways. Serious composters pay top dollars for testing on humic acids levels. I would imagine that notill planters that are successful after multiple cycles/years with minimal inputs are almost exclusively because of the humic contents from the continual decay of the organic matters in said planter. That and soil microbiology.


Well the way I understand it, it's the microorganisms that are producing those humic & fulvic acids - so actually, if our soil biology is well-balanced, we don't need to be adding any extra of either


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## Rrog (Apr 2, 2016)

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&ved=0ahUKEwjO68fAjPDLAhWpxIMKHbFdB00QFgg6MAM&url=http://www.humates.com/pdf/ORGANICMATTERPettit.pdf&usg=AFQjCNHqnGcaEFOrksXWmHz38T8hEX1GmQ&sig2=n3SOMxEbgYD4bqPyKuSYgA

Nice article. I was wanting to find an article showing that Humic Acids persist in the overall humus. Large molecular weight keeps them in the soil. Pretty sure Humic Acids are not depleted much. They are transient carriers of Cations, like a warehouse that keeps the Cation inventory until needed. Doesn't appear that Humic Acids get depleted much

Fulvic Acids, however are generally smaller and more water soluble and can be taken up by plant roots with minerals attached. These seem like they could clearly be depleted and need replenishment, which of course comes from top dressing and the breakdown of dead root material, etc

I'm busy right now bit I'd like to look into this mechanism further.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 2, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Well the way I understand it, it's the microorganisms that are producing those humic & fulvic acids - so actually, if our soil biology is well-balanced, we don't need to be adding any extra of either


Of course not, but a 5 gallon and 10 gallon planter aren't going to have enough microorganisms to support almost 6 months of growing. Especially without any sort of compost tea or what have you.


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## hyroot (Apr 2, 2016)

just add more ewc. No need to add acids. Waste of money imo.

My 18 gal sip gorilla glue is starting to fade, Its a ginormous plant and only half way done. I just top dressed it with more of my ewc last night. It's been in that sip for 4 weeks of flower and 3 weeks of veg


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 2, 2016)

hyroot said:


> just add more ewc. No need to add acids. Waste of money imo.
> 
> My 18 gal sip gorilla glue is starting to fade, Its a ginormous plant and only half way done. I just top dressed it with more of my ewc last night. It's been in that sip for 4 weeks of flower and 3 weeks of veg


I paid like $5 for what's lasted me about a year. Pretty cheap imo. That and there's no room in the planters for ewc. Love me some good ewc/vermicompost though!

Think you'll be switching to mostly sips now? I'm still on the fence on investing in them


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## hyroot (Apr 2, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I paid like $5 for what's lasted me about a year. Pretty cheap imo. That and there's no room in the planters for ewc. Love me some good ewc/vermicompost though!
> 
> Think you'll be switching to mostly sips now? I'm still on the fence on investing in them



I've had bad experiences with some humic acids before. Being too acidic and ph issues.

Already converted for the most part. My breeding plants are in 10 gals though. My seedlings in veg are in 1 gals. Everything else in veg and flower are in sips. The results blow away everything else. It's less work. No tea's, just amending and top dressing. I add water to the resi 1 - 2 times weekly. Being that I'm a hash head the benefit of better / more trichome production.. Something about bottom watering plants improves trichome production so much. I first saw that when I was at inda gro checking out the aquaponics gardens. Seeing the same cuts that I have that were producing far more frost than mine. They use the hydro buckets. But with fish water. So the bottom feed. Like sips. Then I saw it with my own sips. Then a light bulb went on in my head... I don't know what sort of capillary action or what ever causes more trichome development but it does.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 2, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I've had bad experiences with some humic acids before. Being too acidic and ph issues.
> 
> Already converted for the most part. My breeding plants are in 10 gals though. My seedlings in veg are in 1 gals. Everything else in veg and flower are in sips. The results blow away everything else. It's less work. No tea's, just amending and top dressing. I add water to the resi 1 - 2 times weekly. Being that I'm a hash head the benefit of better / more trichome production.. Something about bottom watering plants improves trichome production so much. I first saw that when I was at inda gro checking out the aquaponics gardens. Seeing the same cuts that I have that were producing far more frost than mine. They use the hydro buckets. But with fish water. So the bottom feed. Like sips. Then I saw it with my own sips. Then a light bulb went on in my head... I don't know what sort of capillary action or what ever causes more trichome development but it does.


I've heard that from a few people, never experienced it myself. I'll be ditching it as soon as it's gone. I'd like to eventually move to big shared beds/planters fed knf inputs, mainly the imos. Something about fementing stuff makes plants go ape shit. 
I'd imagine that subirrigation is similar to how plants drink from the water tables outdoors. I watch plants go weeks without water here in the midwest without sweating it. So I definitely can see the benefit of sip's. I can also attest to fish shit water being top notch. When the weather isn't freezing I source all my water from a koi pond and my plants (garden, house plants, canna, everything) seem to prefer it more than spring water, ro, distilled, etc. Its nothing but cached rain water.


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## calliandra (Apr 3, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> Of course not, but a 5 gallon and 10 gallon planter aren't going to have enough microorganisms to support almost 6 months of growing. Especially without any sort of compost tea or what have you.


Why shouldn't there be enough microorganisms? microorganisms _make _nutes according to the plant's specifications, they don't get _used up_?


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 3, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Why shouldn't there be enough microorganisms? microorganisms _make _nutes according to the plant's specifications, they don't get _used up_?


Because there isn't enough soil mass to support the amount of microorganisms necessary to support the sheer size of these plants. 5 gallons and 10 gallons ime aren't quite enoug to sustain over 3 months of veg and 2 months of bloom


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## 4ftRoots (Apr 4, 2016)

hyroot said:


> just add more ewc. No need to add acids. Waste of money imo.
> 
> My 18 gal sip gorilla glue is starting to fade, Its a ginormous plant and only half way done. I just top dressed it with more of my ewc last night. It's been in that sip for 4 weeks of flower and 3 weeks of veg


I get huge plants and I am wanting to change over to SIPS. My only concern is the fact that the plants might become root bound. Have you ever experienced root bound plants? I ask because you said your gorilla glue is huge. 

I have plants that get 3 feet tall and 3 feet around if that helps.

Thanks!


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## hyroot (Apr 4, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> I get huge plants and I am wanting to change over to SIPS. My only concern is the fact that the plants might become root bound. Have you ever experienced root bound plants? I ask because you said your gorilla glue is huge.
> 
> I have plants that get 3 feet tall and 3 feet around if that helps.
> 
> Thanks!



Its my first run with sip's and it's 6 weeks in. But I have air stones in the resi's. The roots girl into the resi's before they even go in flower. So it's like a dwc down there. So o dont see them gwtting root bound. They grow very fast in veg in sips and stretch alot in flower with somewhat close nodes though. My 18 gal sips hold 5 gal of water. My 5 gal sips hold 1 1/2 gal of water.


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## 4ftRoots (Apr 4, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Its my first run with sip's and it's 6 weeks in. But I have air stones in the resi's. The roots girl into the resi's before they even go in flower. So it's like a dwc down there. My 18 gal sips hold 5 gal of water. My 5 gal sips hold 1 1/2 gal of water.


I guess I'll make one and see for myself. You haven't noticed any ill effects so far so it must be golden!


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## hyroot (Apr 4, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> I guess I'll make one and see for myself. You haven't noticed any ill effects so far so it must be golden!



I'd maybe amend the soil more. They're big hungry plants.

I think my 18 gals might have been over kill. I went with that since it's living soil. But the 5 gals are kicking ass in veg. They're going into flower in a few days. I went with 5 gals because I have so many strains. I didn't have enough room for all 18 gals.


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## 4ftRoots (Apr 4, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I'd maybe amend the soil more. They're big hungry plants.
> 
> I think my 18 gals might have been over kill. I went with that since it's living soil. But the 5 gals are kicking ass in veg. They're going into flower in a few days. I went with 5 gals because I have so many strains. I didn't have enough room for all 18 gals.


I had a 35 gallon smartpot because I wanted to go overkill. I might try one 18 gallon since I like having more then not enough.

edit:
How heavy are these pots? Can you lift them yourself?


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## hyroot (Apr 4, 2016)

My largest is a gorilla glue in a 5 x 4 in a scrog

 


Kona sunset in veg in a 5 gal a few days ago 

 

Guard dawg in a 5 gal


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## hyroot (Apr 4, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> I had a 35 gallon smartpot because I wanted to go overkill. I might try one 18 gallon since I like having more then not enough.
> 
> edit:
> How heavy are these pots? Can you lift them yourself?



If the resi is empty you can pick them up. But a bit a heavy. When the resi's filled it makes it more difficult. I'd recommend having some help you. It will make it easier and faster. Especially if you have to adjust the stones.after accidentally pulling the tube out..........

But having the bottom watering and the dwc aspect of it makes it possible to run smaller pots with living soil. But we'll see the comparison

I do have (1) 5 gal quantum kush 1 week into flower. I forgot about that one. Then 3 18 gal quantum kushes at different times. So we'll see.


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## Joedank (Apr 5, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Well, so far so good but the sides could use a bit more even spread with the distribution drippers. I actually have a bunch of those but never hooked them up.
> 
> I dialed the spiked down this morning, so if they continue to look better and better, maybe the solution is 2 maxis turned down but with 3 distro drippers each. 6 total drip points around the pot. The reason I never actually used the distros is just because they are tiny and you pretty much need to have them elevated to stay out of the mulch and any top dressing.


my distributor s are in the soil practically and seem fine . i enjoy the sence of security with blumats .


2ANONYMOUS said:


> I am trying to figure out how to or what i can use to monitor 300 gallons of soil blumats are ok for top but looking at other alternatives for deep soil moisture and monitoring
> 
> Depth and amount of irrigation,
> Root activity and development,
> ...


arudino platform (sp?) based pressure valves attached to the blumats so you can link the system to a solinoid valve . thus watering efficenty and monitoring the bars in real time on a cpu ....

you can also attach you blumats to drip line they use them in large farms now


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 6, 2016)

Thought I'd post this here. Good stuff on composting and organic gardening 

Do with it what you like, as long as it's dirty. Get it? Ahh...anyways here it is..

https://www.oakgov.com/msu/Pages/info_pub/soil_mgt.aspx


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 6, 2016)

@hyroot do you find your gg needs a lot of nutes? I just started growing it and I have one in a lighter mix hating life and another in a heavy mix and it is also not doing the greatest but not bad


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## Rrog (Apr 6, 2016)

Just an observation / opinion. Each plant and pot will technically have different watering needs. 1 sensor for all isn't optimal, considering how much farting around you'd have to do just to get that far. My opinion, anyway. I've thought about it and decided to control each plant with a serious Tensiometer, not a Blumat. I like the concept of the blumats, but they are crude tech. Runoff potential is not something I'm comfortable with.


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## Dr.J20 (Apr 6, 2016)

hyroot said:


> My largest is a gorilla glue in a 5 x 4 in a scrog
> 
> View attachment 3649767
> 
> ...



Hyroot,
what's good man? Those buckets look sweet, self watering it looks like. i've tried these with tomatoes. anyway you could shoot me a link to when you started using these or what you're build is? I might get back into self-watering designs for my late summer runs and would love to get a look at your design! Hope all is going well on your end buddy! been too long!
 and love


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## Joedank (Apr 6, 2016)

Rrog said:


> Just an observation / opinion. Each plant and pot will technically have different watering needs. 1 sensor for all isn't optimal, considering how much farting around you'd have to do just to get that far. My opinion, anyway. I've thought about it and decided to control each plant with a serious Tensiometer, not a Blumat. I like the concept of the blumats, but they are crude tech. Runoff potential is not something I'm comfortable with.


they are not that sofistiated ..lol... they are more like a blumat than you may know brother both just use pressure defecits . blumats never runoff for me ....
http://www.specmeters.com/soil-and-water/soil-moisture/tensiometers/

also 60-120$ each .... lol.... i am looking that way but a arduino based platform carries ... here is what i got so far better an cheaper than whats outhtere :
Garduino is a gardening Arduino. So far, Garduino:
-Waters my plants whenever their soil moisture level drops below a predefined value.
-Turns on grow lights, but only when it's dark out and only long enough to make the plants get 15 hours of total light (sunlight + supplemental light) daily.
-Alerts me if the temperature around the plants drops below 50 degrees.

This is the first grow-light and auto-water setup i know of that takes into account natural sunlight received and soil moisture level before turning on water / light.

all for about the cost of the one tensionmeter...here is the 13$ arduino tensionmeter in case you were wondering ...oh its a set of 5 for 13 $ ... http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5-Set-of-Tensiometer-Detection-Module-Soil-Moisture-Sensors-Module-For-Arduino-Robot-Intelligent-Car/1574549462.html


so i think that the blumats are a great way to start but robotic/cpu platforms are the best for new greenhouse controlls that require many systems inone modulle...


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2016)

Dr.J20 said:


> Hyroot,
> what's good man? Those buckets look sweet, self watering it looks like. i've tried these with tomatoes. anyway you could shoot me a link to when you started using these or what you're build is? I might get back into self-watering designs for my late summer runs and would love to get a look at your design! Hope all is going well on your end buddy! been too long!
> and love



Just go to my thread in the led section.


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> @hyroot do you find your gg needs a lot of nutes? I just started growing it and I have one in a lighter mix hating life and another in a heavy mix and it is also not doing the greatest but not bad



Not really. Gg4 will eat what you give her but less is more I guess. With a built soil the plant eats what it wants so it doesn't really matter. Just as long as the soil is amended enough.


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 7, 2016)

What mix u running w her? Coots? Have u amended his amendments to cater to what she needs? I'm making up his mix when I go get some quality compost this weekend and just want to know all I can before I make it up


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> What mix u running w her? Coots? Have u amended his amendments to cater to what she needs? I'm making up his mix when I go get some quality compost this weekend and just want to know all I can before I make it up



Sort of coots mix. It's

Equal parts peat moss, vermicompost, pumice

Per cubic foot 
1/2 cup crab shell meal 
1/4 cup neem cake 
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup fish bone meal 
1 cup oyster shell flour
4 cups basalt rock dust 

Every 2 weeks light top dress of pureed malted barley seed and light top dress of ewc


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 7, 2016)

I was thinking since each plant is different ( @Rrog ) when building a soil, how would I be able to make a general mix for everything? Is it kind of like start w coots and then amend it to what you see?

He uses either peat or leaf mold, then his EWC and then aeration. Leaf mold> peat if he indeed uses leaf mold but the big thing is his castings. He runs a specific batch of compost then runs that through his worm bin. I would think since I'm far behind harvesting my castings, that I would probably show deficiencies since I don't have HIS high quality castings and or leaf mold. 

I would think in my mind ok, deficiency...let me add x amount of whatever I see. If I had better castings and or leaf mold that may not be the case. Once I introduce better castings and or leaf mold, the mix would change and my original observations would be null correct? 

So I guess what I'm saying is should I wait to mix it up until I have the higher quality castings and or leaf mold or just do it now and add the high quality castings and or leaf mold as a top dress at some point throughout the grow?

Too many factors always to consider in this line of work I feel!


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 7, 2016)

@hyroot excellent, just what I wanted to see! Ty!


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I was thinking since each plant is different ( @Rrog ) when building a soil, how would I be able to make a general mix for everything? Is it kind of like start w coots and then amend it to what you see?
> 
> He uses either peat or leaf mold, then his EWC and then aeration. Leaf mold> peat if he indeed uses leaf mold but the big thing is his castings. He runs a specific batch of compost then runs that through his worm bin. I would think since I'm far behind harvesting my castings, that I would probably show deficiencies since I don't have HIS high quality castings and or leaf mold.
> 
> ...



I think Rrog is just referring to the different water needs of each plant. A built soil can be a general mix for all plants. The plants will eat what and when they want. The only issue is if it's not enough amendments. As some strains are calcium hogs and some are potassium hogs and some are phos hogs.


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 7, 2016)

Makes sense! You run botanical too? I emailed jeremy at buildasoil on his use of botanical teas. It wasn't very clear if you use them from day 1 of veg through last day of flower so I'm getting some clarification.

Right now I run
kelp+aloe
coconut water
SST malted barley
just aloe ( not exactly in this order I think it's sst, aloe, coconut, aloe+kelp if I'm not mistaken)

Then repeat. I'd say I'm doing it about once a week but will be upping to twice a week with possibly 3 times a week after that. I only water 2-3 times a week, they usually go about 3 days before needing water again.


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2016)

No tea's of any kind anymore because I run sips - sub irrigated planters. So my plants get only plain water. The top dress of malted barley flour replaced sst's. Needs to be applied less often than sst's. And top dress ewc also. I only use aloe in foliars. I started using gro kashi as a topdress too.


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## BigDoobie (Apr 7, 2016)

Anyone use alfalfa as a staple in their no tills? I'm getting burns I'm not sure if its from too much light or too much alfalfa meal.


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## Scotch089 (Apr 7, 2016)

BigDoobie said:


> Anyone use alfalfa as a staple in their no tills? I'm getting burns I'm not sure if its from too much light or too much alfalfa meal.


Yea, but I'm still on my first mix. No burn though.


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## BigDoobie (Apr 7, 2016)

Scotch089 said:


> Yea, but I'm still on my first mix. No burn though.


I didnt get any burns my first round but after a few cycles my plants seems to have a bit of a nute burn.


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## Scotch089 (Apr 7, 2016)

Well.. I've not been diligent in keeping used soil seperate from new soil and have done a couple no tills... still no burn fwiw. But honestly I don't remember how long it sat there. Sorry for not being much help, still gettin my feet dirty lol

I get yellowing margins from too intense of light, but that's about it.. wish I had fresh air intake.


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## Blunted 4 lyfe (Apr 8, 2016)

Scotch089 said:


> Well.. I've not been diligent in keeping used soil seperate from new soil and have done a couple no tills... still no burn fwiw. But honestly I don't remember how long it sat there. Sorry for not being much help, still gettin my feet dirty lol
> 
> I get yellowing margins from too intense of light, but that's about it.. wish I had fresh air intake.


Work on it fresh air will blow up your grow you're gonna wish you done it sooner I went through the same shit but when I got the fresh air all hell broke loose then.

B4L


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## kmog33 (Apr 8, 2016)

So my first living soil mix is cooking. Been about two weeks. Anything I should be prepared for. Sticking decently established plants into it. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Blunted 4 lyfe (Apr 8, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> So my first living soil mix is cooking. Been about two weeks. Anything I should be prepared for. Sticking decently established plants into it.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


If you see some fuzz on your soil don't panic your shit didn't go bad that fuzz is part of the cooking process.

B4L


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## GreenSanta (Apr 8, 2016)

I have never grown the same strain often enough to know which ones are calcium pigs, phos pigs or potassium pigs, I do the same thing for every plants, I never really had any problems, some fade early, some dont, I am really starting to lean towards vermicompost as the only source of amendments in my mix.

People doing no-till 20+ gallons indoor, what do you do after harvesting a monster plant? let the pot rest for how long? I used to often pull and replant in 10 gallons pots but after a monster plant the following girl never does well, I have stopped doing the pull and plants and went back to re-mixing and re-amending, since I dont really know what to reamend anymore, (been years of eye balling whatever I had) thats why I simply reamend vermicompost now.

Trust me I get the whole no-till thing, but as far as indoor garden goes, I am still on the fence. In my setup, Id be really worried about high humidity... how do you guys control humidity? I like the SIP raised bed idea. when are you building a raised bed hyroot? I am gonna wait another year see if you are still using SIP before I give it a go lol. I really think plants benefits from drying out really good a couple times in the flowering cycle (not to the point that they wilt but....)

One more thing is if I was brownguy420, the floor of my greenhouse wouldnt be gravel... and plants would not be in pots... That's the real no till imo


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## Joedank (Apr 8, 2016)

hyroot said:


> No tea's of any kind anymore because I run sips - sub irrigated planters. So my plants get only plain water. The top dress of malted barley flour replaced sst's. Needs to be applied less often than sst's. And top dress ewc also. I only use aloe in foliars. I started using gro kashi as a topdress too.
> 
> View attachment 3651615


so if i grow on my septic leach feild is it a hugh SIP?


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## hyroot (Apr 8, 2016)

Joedank said:


> so if i grow on my septic leach feild is it a hugh SIP?



That's nasty lol


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## Joedank (Apr 8, 2016)

hyroot said:


> That's nasty lol


yea .
i was chatting with jermy at BAS about a 35 gallon tote in the earth with a 200 gallon container over it .been thinking of doing it for 5 years now . guess its time to try ..any tips? gonna dig that shit this week .
he wants me to try the earthbox aginst a 100gallon container. does not seem fair but might give it a go in a light dep ....cherry pie day 23. in 4 year old 900 gallon (3 yard) coot filled bed ...lol
 sour amnisia haze finishing up


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## hyroot (Apr 8, 2016)

Joedank said:


> yea .
> i was chatting with jermy at BAS about a 35 gallon tote in the earth with a 200 gallon container over it .been thinking of doing it for 5 years now . guess its time to try ..any tips? gonna dig that shit this week .
> he wants me to try the earthbox aginst a 100gallon container. does not seem fair but might give it a go in a light dep ....



Just make sure you are able to access the lower tote I guess. 

Larger sip pots don't seem as necessary as larger fabric pots do.

My 5 gals are growing better and faster than my 18 gals. We'll see if there's a difference in bud size or not soon. In veg the 5 gals are winning. My one 5 gal in flower has filled out the scrog net more than the 18 gals. It will be day 13 today when they wake up.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 8, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I was thinking since each plant is different ( @Rrog ) when building a soil, how would I be able to make a general mix for everything? Is it kind of like start w coots and then amend it to what you see?
> 
> He uses either peat or leaf mold, then his EWC and then aeration. Leaf mold> peat if he indeed uses leaf mold but the big thing is his castings. He runs a specific batch of compost then runs that through his worm bin. I would think since I'm far behind harvesting my castings, that I would probably show deficiencies since I don't have HIS high quality castings and or leaf mold.
> 
> ...


My response to Hyroots post should answer your questions. Just remember that you don't need a lot to grow cannabis. Coots soil would be imo a near perfect mix. That being said you don't need that great of a soil mix to grow great medicine. You do if you want to keep doing it over and over in the same soil mass. But I digress, don't sweat not having everything perfect at this moment. You can always mix your soil up and reammend later. Yes it won't be considered notill anymore at that point but there's nothing wrong with that.


hyroot said:


> I think Rrog is just referring to the different water needs of each plant. A built soil can be a general mix for all plants. The plants will eat what and when they want. The only issue is if it's not enough amendments. As some strains are calcium hogs and some are potassium hogs and some are phos hogs.


Best way to combat excessive needs is to simply (if possibly) have a larger soil mass. In my experience it's not that the soil doesn't have what the plant needs, it often does, but the microbes aren't able to keep up with the needs of a plant in the soil mass that it's in or there simply just isn't enough soil mass to support the amount of microbes necessary to support whatever plant is in it, thus the answer imo being a larger soil mass as opposed to individual mixes or feedings.


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 8, 2016)

I was thinking and reading the same about the soil mass. I only wanted a near perfect mix done right now cuz I have about 200 gallons of soil that needs to be converted to a coots mix or reamended so I can put plants in it like yesterday! 

I just didn't want to do it one way and then have to start fresh again or dump out reamend. I'm just at that point now so wanted to get it done right and start my journey into 100% no til, make sense? I dunno anymore at this point lol


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 8, 2016)

I have a gorilla glue hating it's life right now and don't know why. That is in a 5 gallon.

I put one in a 10 and it shows same deficiency as the 5 but less prominent and it took longer to show up. 

Should I go larger on pots or try to find out what the deal is. 

I'm at a point where things are getting tested cuz I feel all I do is guess and still have yellowing/browning plants.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 8, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I was thinking and reading the same about the soil mass. I only wanted a near perfect mix done right now cuz I have about 200 gallons of soil that needs to be converted to a coots mix or reamended so I can put plants in it like yesterday!
> 
> I just didn't want to do it one way and then have to start fresh again or dump out reamend. I'm just at that point now so wanted to get it done right and start my journey into 100% no til, make sense? I dunno anymore at this point lol


Oh I completely understand lol I just know things like leaf mold and compost can't be rushed. I was in that spot and it came down to just having to reammend at a later point. Little extra sweat but worth it in the end.


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## GreenSanta (Apr 8, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> I was thinking and reading the same about the soil mass. I only wanted a near perfect mix done right now cuz I have about 200 gallons of soil that needs to be converted to a coots mix or reamended so I can put plants in it like yesterday!
> 
> I just didn't want to do it one way and then have to start fresh again or dump out reamend. I'm just at that point now so wanted to get it done right and start my journey into 100% no til, make sense? I dunno anymore at this point lol


what kind of yield per gallon of soil you guys getting with no till?
how big are coots containers?

because I can only have so much soil in my basement (to keep RH in acceptable range) the way I look at it now is how many oz per gallon of soil can I yield.... my goal is to get 1+ oz per gallon of soil in the grow, im more between .5 to 1 oz per gallon right now but since I started vegging my plants longer, I have fewer bigger plants in the room and often hit close to 1 oz per gallon, eventually hoping to be steadily on the one oz per gallon. I dont think I could achieve those numbers with no till.

I think no till doesnt make a lot of sense for most of us indoor. There is a big hype around it now people mix coots soil and call their grow a no till grow, come back next year when the container is still in the grow room, has grown great plants back to back to back, I have a feeling a lot of you guys with 20 gallons pots or less will run into problems in a few cycles.

No till makes a lot of sense in agriculture or in the garden, or even greenhouses, but no in the da house IMO. I hope some people prove me wrong down the road because I would love not having to move heavy pots around but it has to be economically viable.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 8, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> what kind of yield per gallon of soil you guys getting with no till?
> how big are coots containers?
> 
> because I can only have so much soil in my basement (to keep RH in acceptable range) the way I look at it now is how many oz per gallon of soil can I yield.... my goal is to get 1+ oz per gallon of soil in the grow, im more between .5 to 1 oz per gallon right now but since I started vegging my plants longer, I have fewer bigger plants in the room and often hit close to 1 oz per gallon, eventually hoping to be steadily on the one oz per gallon. I dont think I could achieve those numbers with no till.
> ...


If you're looking at it like that, dry weight to soil mass, I think you're overlooking quite a lot. There are more variables to yield than soil mass alone. You can't answer that simply. If you're a closet or tent grower it may be easier to reammend after every cycle in smaller containers, especially if its not a permanent grow area. But I assure you that even indoors in tents notill can yield a shit ton, given you nail a lot of variables. Genetics, environment, and hardware will make more difference than soil mass imo.
If you want numbers. I just pulled between an elbow to an elbow and a half from 3 plants ( 1 ten gallon and 2 five gallons) under a 600 watt. Would have easily hit over two if the Haze I had going didn't fall victim to an under planned neem spray. Could have gotten more than that if I had bigger planters and trained them better. Honestly I don't know how people don't pull more dry weight than what I read they do.

*In hindsight that last comment sounded really arrogant. I just meant that it shouldn't be as hard as most make it out to be to harvest a happy amount indoors.


----------



## GreenSanta (Apr 8, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> If you're looking at it like that, dry weight to soil mass, I think you're overlooking quite a lot. There are more variables to yield than soil mass alone. You can't answer that simply. If you're a closet or tent grower it may be easier to reammend after every cycle in smaller containers, especially if its not a permanent grow area. But I assure you that even indoors in tents notill can yield a shit ton, given you nail a lot of variables. Genetics, environment, and hardware will make more difference than soil mass imo.
> If you want numbers. I just pulled between an elbow to an elbow and a half from 3 plants ( 1 ten gallon and 2 five gallons) under a 600 watt. Would have easily hit over two if the Haze I had going didn't fall victim to under planned neem spray. Could have gotten more than that if I had bigger planters and trained them better. Honestly I don't know how people don't pull more dry weight than what I read they do.


how many rounds of no till in those pots?


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 8, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> how many rounds of no till in those pots?


1 so far, new soil mix. Which I guess is a horrible example to use in support of notill. A better one would be my ~5th cycle 15 gallon, canna for 3 cycles, one of bell peppers, then of canna again. It's about 2 - 2.5 years old and ony had ewc, kelp, grokashi and rock dusts topdressed. Still yields just as heavy as the first, much better flavors last two rounds of canna imo too. It's about to go outside this year for an 8ft vertical cantaloupe planter. Wait till this fall and I can give you numbers again on the 5 and 10 gallons.


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## DonBrennon (Apr 11, 2016)

RIP Howard Marks.................true legend of the cannabis world, if you've never heard of him, read about him. His autobiography 'Mr Nice' is an absolutely fantastic read.........get it.

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/10/howard-marks-dies-aged-70


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## bizfactory (Apr 11, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> RIP Howard Marks.................true legend of the cannabis world, if you've never heard of him, read about him. His autobiography 'Mr Nice' is an absolutely fantastic read.........get it.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/10/howard-marks-dies-aged-70


In his honor, a Mr Nice Medicine Man plant from my last round


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 14, 2016)

I never like to highlight my blunders but this one takes the cake. If anyone uses agsil and stores it disolved in water. Please keep it in a marked or recognizeable container. My brillant self decided a jug of distilled water in the kitchen would suffice. Until I took a big ole swig of it earlier thinking is was simply water. Not sure what happens when you consume potassium silicate but I'll find out in a couple hours!...


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## Crab Pot (Apr 15, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I never like to highlight my blunders but this one takes the cake. If anyone uses agsil and stores it disolved in water. Please keep it in a marked or recognizeable container. My brillant self decided a jug of distilled water in the kitchen would suffice. Until I took a big ole swig of it earlier thinking is was simply water. Not sure what happens when you consume potassium silicate but I'll find out in a couple hours!...


That sucks! I heard it drinking it causes your hair to get tough like wire bristles!


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## st0wandgrow (Apr 15, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> what kind of yield per gallon of soil you guys getting with no till?
> how big are coots containers?
> 
> because I can only have so much soil in my basement (to keep RH in acceptable range) the way I look at it now is how many oz per gallon of soil can I yield.... my goal is to get 1+ oz per gallon of soil in the grow, im more between .5 to 1 oz per gallon right now but since I started vegging my plants longer, I have fewer bigger plants in the room and often hit close to 1 oz per gallon, eventually hoping to be steadily on the one oz per gallon. I dont think I could achieve those numbers with no till.
> ...


I agree. I dump the soil and re-mix every round. The no-till just didn't work well for me.


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## OutofLEDCloset (Apr 15, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> I never like to highlight my blunders but this one takes the cake. If anyone uses agsil and stores it disolved in water. Please keep it in a marked or recognizeable container. My brillant self decided a jug of distilled water in the kitchen would suffice. Until I took a big ole swig of it earlier thinking is was simply water. Not sure what happens when you consume potassium silicate but I'll find out in a couple hours!...


Oh no your nuts are going to fall off. Good luck.


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 15, 2016)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> Oh no your nuts are going to fall off. Good luck.


Ended up with a serious gutache and an interesting morning. Lived though!


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 16, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> That sucks! I heard it drinking it causes your hair to get tough like wire bristles!


Lol we'll find out in the coming weeks!


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## OutofLEDCloset (Apr 16, 2016)

Pura Vida


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 17, 2016)

OutofLEDCloset said:


> View attachment 3658923
> 
> Pura Vida


That looks phenomenal. How's her nose?


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## OutofLEDCloset (Apr 17, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> That looks phenomenal. How's her nose?


Candy like. She's great medicine.


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 19, 2016)

Hey guys, I asked about some soil mites a little while back and now I have more crawling around so I figured I could take that pic everyone wanted to see. 

I hope to hell they are beneficial..

Note really hard to get a pic lol


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## Joedank (Apr 19, 2016)

cherry pie in some 5 year old soil....


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Apr 20, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Hey guys, I asked about some soil mites a little while back and now I have more crawling around so I figured I could take that pic everyone wanted to see.
> 
> I hope to hell they are beneficial..
> 
> Note really hard to get a pic lol


Look like mature spider mites to me.


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 20, 2016)

They are only in the soil


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## Midwest Weedist (Apr 20, 2016)

hypoaspis mites


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## smink13 (Apr 20, 2016)

I Google and it says they are brown, These are white though


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Apr 20, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> hypoaspis mitesView attachment 3661888


You're probably right.


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 22, 2016)

Anyone else have any ideas on these mites? 

Also I'd like to post my first true start to no til. I've been recycling and reamending for so long. Well this is the start to a properly built soil that should last for years to come with just some top dressing, botanicals and occasional tea 

I introduce first in a 15g geopot, my bruce banner #3

The second is a girl scout cookie in a 10 gal geo that I have yet to get to grow properly. I have honestly had a couple plants just die and don't really know why, that's another topic for another time/thread. In fact I have a thread for the gsc issue if you search and or care. I digress...here she is, she's a bit rough I know but should start doing well soon.

Also I'd like to mention I didn't cook my soil at all first. A high moment that we all have sometimes lol ..so hoping for the best here. ( normally people let it sit for a monthish til they use it, oops!) 

They are in coots mix with the addition of some mushroom compost I found @ hammond farms! 
Will post more updates

* 3rd and 4th pic of bb3  notice the barley straw growing on top as a living mulch ...love it. 

**Also don't mind my ghetto saucer I made out of a piece of tarp and 2x4...didn't have a saucer large enough for it at the time!


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Apr 22, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Hey guys, I asked about some soil mites a little while back and now I have more crawling around so I figured I could take that pic everyone wanted to see.
> 
> I hope to hell they are beneficial..
> 
> Note really hard to get a pic lol


Pot mites, soil mites, they go by many names. When the temps warm up they tend to explode their population. Just a few weeks ago my notill pots were covered with them. Now they are back down to a normal amount. Soil mites are a good sign. They tend to start out white, and then get brown, or red as they mature.


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## MileHighGlassPipes (Apr 22, 2016)

Midwest Weedist said:


> hypoaspis mitesView attachment 3661888


Hypoaspis miles tend to stay in the soil. I have yet to see one leave a pot. I add them to all of my notill pots once every cycle as their numbers don't seem to stay as high as I would like.


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## GreenSanta (Apr 23, 2016)

they look like beneficial mites, maybe amblyseius fallacis http://www.naturalinsectcontrol.com/product.php?id=000000301 , I buy them often enough...


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## The_Physicist (Apr 24, 2016)

coconut water during flower?


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## Chronikool (Apr 24, 2016)

The_Physicist said:


> coconut water during flower?


Sure


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## Joe Blows Trees (Apr 24, 2016)

Are the mite larvae possibly in the soil and hatch when the soil livens up? Just curious since I have them as well and their population is booming in my wormbin. Also, I think I need to add some diameaticous earth to my bin. Ants got in there some how. They're the little black ones.


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 25, 2016)

@Joe Blows Trees I'm not sure what u mean livin up. I saw them when they were in a 1 gal going to a 3 gal. I usually only transplant from 1 gals to 5s but this particular plant needed a boost so I went from 1 to a 3 and then to a 5. Saw them when I disturbed the soil.

That doesn't mean they are not there otherwise, I just hadn't noticed til then


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## Joe Blows Trees (Apr 25, 2016)

I noticed mine first when I harvested my worm castings and then in both bins of my soil waiting to be used. I did not see them while I was mixing the soil or when I added the worms @Organicgrow42


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 25, 2016)

Hmmm interesting. I buy my vermicompost from detrot nutrient company. I wonder if I got them from the bags @Joe Blows Trees


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## Organicgrow42 (Apr 26, 2016)

I have barley growing from my barley straw mulch. When is the ideal time to chop it down? What height? Thanks guys


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## Dr.4:20 (Apr 26, 2016)

Hey guys, built a soil a few months ago and It's time to reamend a set. Can't help but feel like I went heavy initially so I'm having a hard time reading and figuring out what to reamend with. 
Total base mix about 16 cu ft. 
Fish meal, alfalfa meal, neem seed meal crab meal all at 4 cups each

Powdered azomite, granular azomite, garden lime, basalt mix, gypsum, greensand, oystershell flour All at 4.5 cups each
DE at 4 cups

2 cups happy frog jump start i had left over, 2 cups roots uprising foundation mix, 2 cups coast Of maine mix.
.5 cup azos
.25 cup ful-humix
2lbs mykos
1cup Epsom salt.

I guess I was going for diversity! Hoping someone could chime in on reamend quantities and what to change if I make another batch. Thanks!


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Apr 28, 2016)

Critical Jack Herrer - ROLS


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## Rrog (Apr 28, 2016)

Damn!!!!!


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## Blunted 4 lyfe (Apr 29, 2016)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> Critical Jack Herrer - ROLSView attachment 3668322


Very nice indeed! What was her height? Indoor or outdoor? Lighting?

B4L


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## bizfactory (Apr 29, 2016)

I've got a batch of standard AACT with compost/ewc and molasses brewing and it will be read tomorrow morning...

So my question is, *can I add coconut water and aloe to the AACT once it's finished?* Any harm in that just a few minutes before soil drenching? Waste of coco water and aloe? How much coconut water per gallon usually? I've got 1/8 to 1/4 of a cup per gallon stuck in my head for some reason....accurate? 

Thanks y'all and happy friday!


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## testiclees (Apr 29, 2016)

Joe Blows Trees said:


> Are the mite larvae possibly in the soil and hatch when the soil livens up? Just curious since I have them as well and their population is booming in my wormbin. Also, I think I need to add some diameaticous earth to my bin. Ants got in there some how. They're the little black ones.


Bro Ive used the borax ant bait in my bin with no problem. I placed the bait, a couple drops, on the paths the worms use. I noticed zero effect except for worms gone. Also believe that the minute boron dosage could be useful for MJ nutrition.

Adding any sweet stuff to the bin calls those lil fucks in like a dinner bell.


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## DonBrennon (Apr 30, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I've got a batch of standard AACT with compost/ewc and molasses brewing and it will be read tomorrow morning...
> 
> So my question is, *can I add coconut water and aloe to the AACT once it's finished?* Any harm in that just a few minutes before soil drenching? Waste of coco water and aloe? How much coconut water per gallon usually? I've got 1/8 to 1/4 of a cup per gallon stuck in my head for some reason....accurate?
> 
> Thanks y'all and happy friday!


I'm no expert, but this guy 'Tim Wilson' is, it doesn't take too long to read.http://www.microbeorganics.com/

This is the specific part, but the rest is well worth a read

"Adding Ingredients to a Finished Brew;

As I’ve mentioned we used to make 1200 gallon batches of ACT which we applied on our farm garden beds through an irrigation system. We used the same tank if we wanted to apply some other diluted soil amendment or fertilizer, like fish hydrolysate, molasses (occasionally) or humic acid.

I had read that many growers and landscapers were adding some of these amendments into their ACT just before applying and I believe this process was endorsed by SFI. Anyway we decided to try saving some time and money and dumped 5 gallons of fish hydrolysate into a 1200 gallon batch to pump out. I had, as usual examined the finished brew microscopically and out of curiosity took another sample after mixing in the fish hydrolysate. To my astonishment and dismay I had wiped out or put to sleep almost half of the microorganisms. This was the last time we did this.

We always apply amendments separately from ACT and this is what I recommend unless using the most minuscule amounts. I surmise that adding anything to a finished brew can have similar negative results. The amount of FH we used was 0.4%. If you have a microscope, go ahead and experiment."

So, Don't add anything to your finished aact


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## GandalfdaGreen (Apr 30, 2016)

Finished teas! Key is finished.


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## bizfactory (Apr 30, 2016)

Thanks fellas, just watered with the plain AACT. Next watering I'll add the LAB I just finished with the aloe/coconut. 

My plants are looking rough so hopefully between these two they'll turn around. The soil should still have PLENTY of nutrition as long as the microlife is good. I lightly top dressed with kelp, alfalfa, neem/karaja, gypsum, and oyster shell flour at the beginning of veg and this is only my 2nd grow in this soil (first official no-till round). 

They are a bit lime green and sorta droopy. Definitely not praying  I recently started hand watering because I suspected the blumats were causing the soil to be too damp but after 2 weeks of hand watering, still the same signs. This has really got me stumped. Temps are in the high 70s and rH is in the 30-50% range most of the time. The first round was SOO EASY, having a hell of a time on the second.

Here's a screen cap of my webcam:


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## DonBrennon (Apr 30, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks fellas, just watered with the plain AACT. Next watering I'll add the LAB I just finished with the aloe/coconut.
> 
> My plants are looking rough so hopefully between these two they'll turn around. The soil should still have PLENTY of nutrition as long as the microlife is good. I lightly top dressed with kelp, alfalfa, neem/karaja, gypsum, and oyster shell flour at the beginning of veg and this is only my 2nd grow in this soil (first official no-till round).
> 
> ...


They don't look that bad from the photo, they do still look like they've got 'The Claw' though and I'd guess it's the saturation that's causing the 'Def's', rather than a lack of nutrients. I'd have held off to let them dry out quite a bit more before watering with the Aact, although I know it's difficult to do nothing when you really want to act to help things out. The fabric pots tend to dry out around the outsides and on top pretty quick and make you think they need watering, when the middle and bottom of the soil are still saturated. I've found that I need to mist the pot's outsides and mulch until the plants are large, well into flower and using a lot water, especially in large containers like that.


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## bizfactory (Apr 30, 2016)

Cheers Don, appreciate the feedback. One plant was actually wilting a bit on the lower leaves and I could easily pick up the 15 gallon pots so I think it was dry enough. It is hard, especially knowing my worms might be drying out!!


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## DonBrennon (Apr 30, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Cheers Don, appreciate the feedback. One plant was actually wilting a bit on the lower leaves and I could easily pick up the 15 gallon pots so I think it was dry enough. It is hard, especially knowing my worms might be drying out!!


MMmmnnn, yup if a 15 gal's easy to pick up, it needs watering.........or perhaps I'm just a pussy LOL.............Give the aact time to work, I bet they'll be looking great in the morning.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (May 1, 2016)

Blunted 4 lyfe said:


> Very nice indeed! What was her height? Indoor or outdoor? Lighting?
> 
> B4L


This one was 6' tall indoor 1000w vertical naked HPS on a mvover.


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## GreenSanta (May 3, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks fellas, just watered with the plain AACT. Next watering I'll add the LAB I just finished with the aloe/coconut.
> 
> My plants are looking rough so hopefully between these two they'll turn around. The soil should still have PLENTY of nutrition as long as the microlife is good. I lightly top dressed with kelp, alfalfa, neem/karaja, gypsum, and oyster shell flour at the beginning of veg and this is only my 2nd grow in this soil (first official no-till round).
> 
> ...


I have had better luck re-amending a wide diversity of amendments in small amounts and use a ''weaker'' soil, but more of it. Your plants look like they are either needing more calcium/magnesium or something is way off, too many roots from the previous crop still in the pot? when it happens I just ride it out, be sure to let it dry out really good before next watering and keep her under strong lights you will still get a decent yield, with a super clean smoke.


----------



## smink13 (May 3, 2016)

Can anyone chime in about my barley question? Just need to know when I should cut it back. It's a living mulch in my containers


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## bizfactory (May 3, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I have had better luck re-amending a wide diversity of amendments in small amounts and use a ''weaker'' soil, but more of it. Your plants look like they are either needing more calcium/magnesium or something is way off, too many roots from the previous crop still in the pot? when it happens I just ride it out, be sure to let it dry out really good before next watering and keep her under strong lights you will still get a decent yield, with a super clean smoke.


There was probably only a week between the last round of plants and when I put the clones in. They were healthy at the start. Something is way off...I just can't figure it out. You really think these are worth throwing into flower? I was starting to think chopping and re-mixing the soil would be my next step. At least I would get to see the roots and check for stuff like root aphids. I do have some fliers but I'm 90% sure they are fungus gnats. They def trail off if I hit them with BTi.

So frustrating. One of the plants is even almost purpling on the tips of the leaves? Never seen that one before.


----------



## st0wandgrow (May 3, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks fellas, just watered with the plain AACT. Next watering I'll add the LAB I just finished with the aloe/coconut.
> 
> My plants are looking rough so hopefully between these two they'll turn around. The soil should still have PLENTY of nutrition as long as the microlife is good. I lightly top dressed with kelp, alfalfa, neem/karaja, gypsum, and oyster shell flour at the beginning of veg and this is only my 2nd grow in this soil (first official no-till round).
> 
> ...


Are you running no till?

edit: Nevermind, just read that it is no-till.

I had some plants that looked like that when I was trying no-till. I dicked with it forever. Adding this, subtracting that. The final conclusion that I came to was that my soil was too dense and compacted. It was starving the roots of oxygen. I went back to dumping my soil out and re-amending after each round and it was a 100% improvement.

Others are using no-till with great success, so I'm not saying that it doesn't work. It just didn't work for me. I add lots of worm poo to my base, and then top dress with it a couple times through the grow. I suspect that this contributed to the density of my soil.


----------



## kindnug (May 3, 2016)

Ever tried BAS craft blend as a top-dress? 
Had the same problem with some recycled soil and 1/3 cup per 7gal pot took care of it, and 3 days later they're growing normal.


----------



## bizfactory (May 3, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Are you running no till?
> 
> edit: Nevermind, just read that it is no-till.
> 
> ...


Yeah man I've top dressed with EWC twice so far in these pots. I have been suspicious of root problems for a while because they just show all kinds of different signs. Pretty much every def imaginable, slow growth, droopiness, etc. When I took the blumats out of the equation and have really been letting them dry + AACTs and no improvement? Ehhhh, somethings fucked.

Even if I end up re-mixing / tilling this soil I might still try again. I know it works, but like you said, you have to make it work for YOU.


----------



## hyroot (May 3, 2016)

Make sure you have equal amounts of peat, castings and pumice. And pumice aerates a lot more than perlite. It doesn't break down and float like perlite either.

Adding pumice to my mix made all the difference. I run about 5 generations before dumping and reamending. Usually about that time I have changed my pot size almost every time like clock work


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## bizfactory (May 3, 2016)

Thanks hyroot, I was definitely thinking of adding more aeration if I have to mix these pots up. Currently they all have lava rock but it doesn't seem to be enough, I hardly see any when I'm digging around. The rice hulls all seem to have disappeared by now. 

Pumice seems almost identical to normal lava rock, is there anything particularly better about it? Where would be a good place to find the stuff in a couple gallon quantities? 

I have 3x 15 gallon pots but one of those is in a smaller tent. I'm almost about to just scrape that one and having a look inside the soil to see if I can learn anything. Remix with a bit more aeration and peat and lighter on the castings / compost. These have been "vegging" since Feb!!! Ridiculous.


----------



## GreenSanta (May 3, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> There was probably only a week between the last round of plants and when I put the clones in. They were healthy at the start. Something is way off...I just can't figure it out. You really think these are worth throwing into flower? I was starting to think chopping and re-mixing the soil would be my next step. At least I would get to see the roots and check for stuff like root aphids. I do have some fliers but I'm 90% sure they are fungus gnats. They def trail off if I hit them with BTi.
> 
> So frustrating. One of the plants is even almost purpling on the tips of the leaves? Never seen that one before.


I thought you were already in flowering, I would just let them dry really good (in case you have been overwatering...) and I would put a big handful of redwigglers with next watering.... and since you are still in veg I would aggressively trim it and see if the new growth is nice.

In flower though, when my plants look similar to yours I just ride them out. 

Also if like stowandgrow suggested you have a heavy soil mix, it can be hard to tell when its time to water because the containers feel heavy no matter what, if thats the case, I like to have mine in saucers so that I can give them a set amount of water without having to worry about runoffs, say I give 1.5 gallon of water, within an hour the plants finish absorbing it from the bottom and I know for certain this plant is good for a day or 3 depending on its size. Hope that makes sense.


----------



## Chronikool (May 3, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I thought you were already in flowering, I would just let them dry really good (in case you have been overwatering...) and I would put a big handful of redwigglers with next watering.... and since you are still in veg I would aggressively trim it and see if the new growth is nice.
> 
> In flower though, when my plants look similar to yours I just ride them out.
> 
> Also if like stowandgrow suggested you have a heavy soil mix, it can be hard to tell when its time to water because the containers feel heavy no matter what, if thats the case, I like to have mine in saucers so that I can give them a set amount of water without having to worry about runoffs, say I give 1.5 gallon of water, within an hour the plants finish absorbing it from the bottom and I know for certain this plant is good for a day or 3 depending on its size. Hope that makes sense.


Yip....if i am top dressing with worm castings i make sure there is a healthy amount of wormz included...they will live in any size pot and if your organic conditions are right will stay put, aerate and fertilise forever more...


----------



## Tjingles (May 3, 2016)

Anyone ever try topdressing/mulching with wheatgrass?. Its got alot of vitamins/minerals. Even b1,just curious as to if theae would all get transfered to the plant as they breakdown


----------



## nvhak49 (May 4, 2016)

Hey guys I was wondering if you guys use anything to help bring out the taste and smell I'm a week out till harvest on my no till garden? Thanks


----------



## GreenSanta (May 4, 2016)

nvhak49 said:


> Hey guys I was wondering if you guys use anything to help bring out the taste and smell I'm a week out till harvest on my no till garden? Thanks


Water, nothing u can do in the last week to improve flavor and taste, which are mostly strain(pheno) related anyway, if u are disappointed with the way she smells, u must wait until after dry and cure and confirm once in the jar, some strains truly improve tremendously after a few days in a jar, more often than u think...

On a side note, I have had praying mantis hatching in the grow room today!!


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## Amitabha (May 5, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> View attachment 3669825


Did you figure out what the problem was? I am in the same boat with the same issue and am not 100% positive what caused it. I over watered also.


----------



## 4ftRoots (May 5, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks hyroot, I was definitely thinking of adding more aeration if I have to mix these pots up. Currently they all have lava rock but it doesn't seem to be enough, I hardly see any when I'm digging around. The rice hulls all seem to have disappeared by now.
> 
> Pumice seems almost identical to normal lava rock, is there anything particularly better about it? Where would be a good place to find the stuff in a couple gallon quantities?
> 
> I have 3x 15 gallon pots but one of those is in a smaller tent. I'm almost about to just scrape that one and having a look inside the soil to see if I can learn anything. Remix with a bit more aeration and peat and lighter on the castings / compost. These have been "vegging" since Feb!!! Ridiculous.


Thats your problem. Your aeration breaks down. I do not advocate using rice hulls at all for that reason. However, as a worm compost aeration rice hulls can't be beat!

Get some pea gravel, turface, or more lava rock. Your problem will magically disappear!


----------



## bizfactory (May 5, 2016)

4ftRoots said:


> Thats your problem. Your aeration breaks down. I do not advocate using rice hulls at all for that reason. However, as a worm compost aeration rice hulls can't be beat!
> 
> Get some pea gravel, turface, or more lava rock. Your problem will magically disappear!


Nice man, thanks for the input. Might just scrape these plants and re-mix! They are still lookin haggard but not really getting worse..


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## Quintessence (May 5, 2016)

Quick question for the ROLS pros here. I am about to mix up a batch of soil which will be a mix of more or less the following:

1/3 Peatmoss
1/3 Rice Hulls and Pumice
1/3 EWC and Malibu Compost

with the B.A.S Coots kit added

I recently went up to the Mountains and while there I grabbed a small bag of soil. My question is this: Should I put some of the forest soil in my mix while it cooks or should I just keep it for compost teas? I know it's good to introduce as diverse a set of microbes into the soil so it probably wouldn't hurt to do both right?


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## The_Physicist (May 5, 2016)

Whats the best light that I could buy for flower for the lowest cost?


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## bizfactory (May 6, 2016)

The_Physicist said:


> Whats the best light that I could buy for flower for the lowest cost?


https://www.rollitup.org/f/led-and-other-lighting.124/


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## hyroot (May 7, 2016)

Chopping stalks and branches into wood chips sort of for mulch. Thoughts?


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## bizfactory (May 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Chopping stalks and branches into wood chips sort of for mulch. Thoughts?


I did it last round with all the branches when I didn't have more straw. About 4 months later, most of it is gone or at least buried.


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## st0wandgrow (May 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Chopping stalks and branches into wood chips sort of for mulch. Thoughts?


Why not? That would work just fine IMO.

So, I asked a question in the LED section and I'm not getting much feedback, so I'll ask you. What's the best led panel on the market for flower? I have 3 rows of plants in flower, each with a 1000 watt HPS overhead. Footprint for each row is apx 4' wide x 5' long.

Any suggestions? I'm not very handy, so DIY is kinda off the table for me. My eyes glaze over when you guys start talking specs!


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## Rrog (May 7, 2016)

St0w- I would contact @SupraSPL and have him build you a rig. Get ahold of me with any Q's, but that's what I'd sure do.


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## hyroot (May 7, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I did it last round with all the branches when I didn't have more straw. About 4 months later, most of it is gone or at least buried.





st0wandgrow said:


> Why not? That would work just fine IMO.
> 
> So, I asked a question in the LED section and I'm not getting much feedback, so I'll ask you. What's the best led panel on the market for flower? I have 3 rows of plants in flower, each with a 1000 watt HPS overhead. Footprint for each row is apx 4' wide x 5' long.
> 
> Any suggestions? I'm not very handy, so DIY is kinda off the table for me. My eyes glaze over when you guys start talking specs!


I have all my stalks from the past year sitting in a 30 gal tote. Lol. I'm have a busy week making mulch. I was probably going to give them to @SomeGuy for fire wood in his fire pit. I have a lot though

I don't like using the leaves for mulch really anymore. They don't really break down sitting on top of the soil. I feel it's a waste to use leaves for mulch when I can feed the leaves to the worms.

For led. The best are


http://www.pacificlightconcepts.com/


Its @Greengenes707 company. He's releasing new panels in a month or 2.

https://northerngrowlights.com/

That's @robincnn company

http://www.tastyled.com/

That's @Rahz company.


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## st0wandgrow (May 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I have all my stalks from the past year sitting in a 30 gal tote. Lol. I'm have a busy week making mulch. I was probably going to give them to @SomeGuy for fire wood in his fire pit. I have a lot though
> 
> I don't like using the leaves for mulch really anymore. They don't really break down sitting on top of the soil. I feel it's a waste to use leaves for mulch when I can feed the leaves to the worms.
> 
> ...


Thanks!

So that CX300 by pacific lights for example....any idea the footprint on that, and would that adequately replace a 1000 watt HPS?


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## hyroot (May 7, 2016)

[


st0wandgrow said:


> Thanks!
> 
> So that CX300 by pacific lights for example....any idea the footprint on that, and would that adequately replace a 1000 watt HPS?



2 of those would replace a 1000w. Each one is equivilant to a 315w cmh or 600w hps. Coverage is about 3x3

They're releasing new bars soon with pin heat sinks. That are more efficient .


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## bizfactory (May 7, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Thanks!
> 
> So that CX300 by pacific lights for example....any idea the footprint on that, and would that adequately replace a 1000 watt HPS?


Wait for his new bar design to come out, It will be much more flexible and as far as covering your space. The CX300 leaves a bit to be desired as far as spacing but the more modular design of the bars will allow you to perfectly cover your 4x5 area.

I'm running CXBs and Veros and they are great! I DIY'd though. It's really not all that hard, especially with the new mau5 kits from cutter. If you start a thread in the LED section people will jump in and help you along the way if you are up for it. Myself included.


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## st0wandgrow (May 7, 2016)

hyroot said:


> [
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn. So I would need 8 of those to replace my HID's in flower and veg. $6,000. Ouch!



bizfactory said:


> Wait for his new bar design to come out, It will be much more flexible and as far as covering your space. The CX300 leaves a bit to be desired as far as spacing but the more modular design of the bars will allow you to perfectly cover your 4x5 area.
> 
> I'm running CXBs and Veros and they are great! I DIY'd though. It's really not all that hard, especially with the new mau5 kits from cutter. If you start a thread in the LED section people will jump in and help you along the way if you are up for it. Myself included.


I might just do that. I posted my questions in one of the LED section stickys but not much response so far. I didn't want to start a thread with questions I'm sure have been asked/answered thousands of times....

Thanks for the help fellas


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## hyroot (May 7, 2016)

Look into cmh too @st0wandgrow The cmh bulbs last 3 times longer than hps bulbs. They're much more efficient than hps. Mine only pulls 339 watts at the wall. I'm covering a 4x4. It would be better at a 3x3 - 3.5 x 3.5.

Its my first run with a 315. I paid. $365 for it.mine is a phantom 315. The sun system lec 315 is about $480. It has a better ballast made by Phillips and it's not remote like mine. Still produces very little heat like my cmh. They both use the same bulbs. I think when I add more cmh I'm going to grab some sun systems


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (May 10, 2016)

Check out this Blackjack - Black Domina x Jack Herrer
ROLS


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## Organicgrow42 (May 12, 2016)

Just posting this here in case anyone follows BAS and Jeremy Silva.

I found out BAS and Jeremy Silva is a fraud. Coot is over at grass city in a new no til thread called no til: revisited telling all about it.

I couldn't be more disappointed.

Take this how you would like. Not trying to start anything. I'm just beyond disappointed.


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## Rrog (May 12, 2016)

You're disappointed in Coot's thread?

What name is he going by over there?


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## hyroot (May 12, 2016)

Organicgrow42 said:


> Just posting this here in case anyone follows BAS and Jeremy Silva.
> 
> I found out BAS and Jeremy Silva is a fraud. Coot is over at grass city in a new no til thread called no til: revisited telling all about it.
> 
> ...



Jeremy silva and Coots were both on the same Adam Dunn show a couple months ago.

I'm reading it now. But that thread is authored by mountain organics. I'm on the first page.

Do you have a link to the exact page. The thread is 187 pages.


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## hyroot (May 12, 2016)

I went through the first 10 pages and the last 10 pages and I couldn't find a single post by Clackamas Coots. I know he's mostly on IC mag


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## Rrog (May 12, 2016)

I can't find "Coot" or "clackamas" over there, but he has other names


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## hyroot (May 12, 2016)

Rrog said:


> I can't find "Coot" or "clackamas" over there, but he has other names



I call shenanigans on that post ^^^^

I know mountain organics and Coots are not the same person. I've met mountain organics. He lives about an hour from me. One of my friends has been to his house a few times. Coots lives in Oregon.


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## kmog33 (May 13, 2016)

Hey guys. Finally got my first living soil going. Wondering if this is a good sign.







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Mohican (May 14, 2016)

Nice!


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## kmog33 (May 14, 2016)

Mohican said:


> Nice!


So, yes? Lol.


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## Rrog (May 14, 2016)

Just keep it just moist enough to form a solid ball when you squeeze it, which breaks when you poke it. That level of water won't go anaerobic easily. Let it breathe. I used to put a towel or such over the top. Keeps bugs out, but allows gas exchange.

That'll pretty much guarantee it goes great. And it looks great so far.


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## Mohican (May 14, 2016)

Living soil! Looks great!

I always consider it a good sign when I get shrooms in my compost.


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## kmog33 (May 14, 2016)

Mohican said:


> Living soil! Looks great!
> 
> I always consider it a good sign when I get shrooms in my compost.


It's actually growing at the base of my plants lol.


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## m4s73r (May 14, 2016)

Hey guys, So i got 4 20 gallon no tills going. 5 weeks in and theyre going yellow  So I threw on a couple inches of worm castings around each plant and watered it in 3 days ago and I'm not seeing any improvement. Am I just being impatient? each pot also has clover growing in for a living mulch and any dead thats been on the plant ive pulled off and ground up and threw on top. Just been doing water only. I did flood the pots a few times while i was getting my watering system set up.


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## calliandra (May 14, 2016)

m4s73r said:


> Hey guys, So i got 4 20 gallon no tills going. 5 weeks in and theyre going yellow  So I threw on a couple inches of worm castings around each plant and watered it in 3 days ago and I'm not seeing any improvement. Am I just being impatient? each pot also has clover growing in for a living mulch and any dead thats been on the plant ive pulled off and ground up and threw on top. Just been doing water only. I did flood the pots a few times while i was getting my watering system set up.


Oh wow what a beautiful garden elsewise!

Looking forward to what others say - I currently have a grow going that way too, looking like theyre finishing way before their time (but mine started doing that a week or so into flower, like 3 weeks after flip).
In my case I thought it was because I have an uncured amended soil in pots that are way too small AND I've kept "forgetting" them in the course of their lives ... but it can't be a lack of soil in your case!


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## DonBrennon (May 15, 2016)

I like the look of the set up, and sorry if I'm being ignorant here, but have you used it successfully before? 

It's hard to tell where the thermometer is mounted, but if it's getting to 81F away from the light, then those leaves near the light could be getting fried in as high as 100F temps, daily? Are those HID's 1000w? 

what I'm basically saying is, could it be environmental, heat stress or bleaching?


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## m4s73r (May 15, 2016)

In smaller form, did the same thing with a single 600 for a long time. There is a pretty large fan keeping the inside cool. And hey those are 1000w hids. Thyre not close enough for bleaching. plants are 21 inches from the bulb. I may need a bigger room.


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## DonBrennon (May 15, 2016)

m4s73r said:


> In smaller form, did the same thing with a single 600 for a long time. There is a pretty large fan keeping the inside cool. And hey those are 1000w hids. Thyre not close enough for bleaching. plants are 21 inches from the bulb. I may need a bigger room.


Mmmmnnnn.................21" is rather close for a naked 1000w HID, Just looked at your thermometer again and I'd definitely try to do something about the environment before I started adding any more nutes. 64%-81% humidity and the high temps are probably what's causing the problems.


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## Mohican (May 15, 2016)

Are you using CO2?


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## m4s73r (May 15, 2016)

Not using co2. Vented room. May have to cut one light out for now till i get the room more dialed in. Humidity is hard to control in the midwest. Its humid here during the summer. The center fan can blow at over 4k cfm. So i can get lots of airflow, just dont wnt to add wind burn to the list of issues.


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## BillyBlanks420 (May 16, 2016)

headtreep said:


> This is one of my current mixes I'm using. I still have some other mixes going as well with more ingredients but I truly believe that this is a great start for everyone that is very reasonably priced. I used to amend commerical soils until I got enlighten.
> 
> Soil Base - Per Cubic Foot
> 
> ...


....
I was wondering if those measurements for the amendment mix is per gallon? i know its an old post but it seems like a good mix to start with


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## Crab Pot (May 16, 2016)

BillyBlanks420 said:


> ....
> I was wondering if those measurements for the amendment mix is per gallon? i know its an old post but it seems like a good mix to start with


Measurements are per cubic foot (7.5 gallons)


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## Crab Pot (May 16, 2016)

It's a very good mix but it's missing oyster shell flower @ 1 cup/ cu ft.


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## hyroot (May 16, 2016)

I never get mushrooms sprouting from my soil. And I have worms in my pots. And plenty of mycelium. It may be my environment though.


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## kmog33 (May 16, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> It's a very good mix but it's missing oyster shell flower @ 1 cup/ cu ft.


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## bizfactory (May 16, 2016)

Does anyone like to put a thin layer of pumice / lava rock / aeration on the bottom of their no-till or rols pots? I am remixing my soil with pumice instead of rice hulls and I figure now would be a good time. I got the 3/16" pumice from general pumice products. Kinda $$ but whatever.


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## BillyBlanks420 (May 16, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> It's a very good mix but it's missing oyster shell flower @ 1 cup/ cu ft.





Crab Pot said:


> Measurements are per cubic foot (7.5 gallons)


Thanks for the reply bud i am trying my very first no till soil with 1 part Happyfrog Soil Conditioner 1 part premuim compost and 1 part 1/2" Red landscaping stones cuz im low on funds n have to make 1200 gallons lol so glad its not by the gallon it gets way more expensive


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## BillyBlanks420 (May 16, 2016)

These are my babies there gunna go into 100 gallon pots n make daddy realll happy


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## BillyBlanks420 (May 16, 2016)

Actually just did the math and its the same 5 gallons of each 1/2 cup amendment and 40 gallons of rock dust... My local shop only has azomite will that be as good as basalt/ glacier dust?


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## Crab Pot (May 16, 2016)

BillyBlanks420 said:


> Thanks for the reply bud i am trying my very first no till soil with 1 part Happyfrog Soil Conditioner 1 part premuim compost and 1 part 1/2" Red landscaping stones cuz im low on funds n have to make 1200 gallons lol so glad its not by the gallon it gets way more expensive


I like the sound of premium compost. Wouldn't peat be cheaper than Happy Frog? And, are you adding amendments and minerals to the mix?


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## BillyBlanks420 (May 16, 2016)

The happy frog soil conditioner has ewc and humid acid n a few other goodies for 740 a pallet of 35 but it's missing the rest of the super soil ingredients


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## calliandra (May 16, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Does anyone like to put a thin layer of pumice / lava rock / aeration on the bottom of their no-till or rols pots? I am remixing my soil with pumice instead of rice hulls and I figure now would be a good time. I got the 3/16" pumice from general pumice products. Kinda $$ but whatever.


Yep I've been doing that in general, especially in large pots, for years.
So it was something I didn't even think about when I set up my first no-till pot, it got an inch of lava rock as the bottommost layer. Mind you I've only used it on one run to now (and that was a crazy one, not due to the lava rock hehe), so there may be implications for no-till I am not yet aware of


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## bizfactory (May 17, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Yep I've been doing that in general, especially in large pots, for years.
> So it was something I didn't even think about when I set up my first no-till pot, it got an inch of lava rock as the bottommost layer. Mind you I've only used it on one run to now (and that was a crazy one, not due to the lava rock hehe), so there may be implications for no-till I am not yet aware of


Thanks for the response. After I posted that question I kept searching around for an answer and found some interesting information against using aeration on the bottom of a container. I think i'm going to skip it this time but I'm still not sold on one way or the other. 

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2838394&postcount=62

http://www.sustainable-gardening.com/how-to/tips/drainage-in-containers

https://bozannical.com/2012/08/24/the-great-myth-of-drainage-rocks/

https://www.rollitup.org/t/changes-the-way-you-think-about-drainage.424933/


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## calliandra (May 18, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Thanks for the response. After I posted that question I kept searching around for an answer and found some interesting information against using aeration on the bottom of a container. I think i'm going to skip it this time but I'm still not sold on one way or the other.
> 
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=2838394&postcount=62
> 
> ...


Ah interesting! 
Yeah I'm on the fence about drainage layers now too, thanks lol 

I was especially intrigued about this perched water table thing - the aeration at the bottom of my big pots is specifically to prevent an anaerobic layer forming in the bottom of the pot, but if all it does is to create that anaerobic layer right above it, of course it would be moot.
I'll definitely check on that after my next harvest!


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## keepitcoastal (May 19, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Look into cmh too @st0wandgrow The cmh bulbs last 3 times longer than hps bulbs. They're much more efficient than hps. Mine only pulls 339 watts at the wall. I'm covering a 4x4. It would be better at a 3x3 - 3.5 x 3.5.
> 
> Its my first run with a 315. I paid. $365 for it.mine is a phantom 315. The sun system lec 315 is about $480. It has a better ballast made by Phillips and it's not remote like mine. Still produces very little heat like my cmh. They both use the same bulbs. I think when I add more cmh I'm going to grab some sun systems


I've got 8 of the sun system ones in one of my veg rooms I like them quite alot actually . With the overlap they perform quite well with a 4X4 spread and they run very cool ..


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## bizfactory (May 19, 2016)

I am fuckin pissed. I chopped my plants that were having all kinds of issues (droopy leaves, yellow / lime green color, slow growth) in my no till pots (2nd round). I ended up adding 1/9th of the total mix in pumice and obviously tilled / re-mixed the soil. I popped a health clone in one just as a tester to see if it would stay healthy or not. 2 days later it's droopy as fuck. I did a light watering during transplant but that's it. My lights are even turned down and all the way at the top of the tent. This plant was 100% healthy 2 days ago in a solo of FFOF.

I'm really starting to think there might be something really wrong with my environment. Plastic gassing off? Furnace / water heater leaking natural gas? I don't smell anything but I also have a fan exhausting out of the basement. Mold / fungus down there? I'm literally just making shit up now, I have no clue what's off. Temps are around 74 and rH is a bit low at 30-40%. Both of those numbers are not far off the other room where the clones are vegging.

or it's just transplant shock but I really doubt it's going to look better in a few days.


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## hyroot (May 19, 2016)

Is there alfalfa on your mix?

Looks heavy on the nitrogen. Maybe a bit over watered. Next watering, water with a seed sprout tea.

Transplant shock isn't a real thing. It's only a shock if the roots were torn or damaged in the transplant.


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## bizfactory (May 19, 2016)

A light alfalfa top dress in my first round but that should be it. I was using dynagro foliage pro in the solo so thats why its a bit dark looking. 

I have some bas milled malted barley. I was just going to top dress but would making a tea be faster? 

Roots weren't really damaged, I did sprinkle with endomycos as well.


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## hyroot (May 19, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> A light alfalfa top dress in my first round but that should be it. I was using dynagro foliage pro in the solo so thats why its a bit dark looking.
> 
> I have some bas milled malted barley. I was just going to top dress but would making a tea be faster?
> 
> Roots weren't really damaged, I did sprinkle with endomycos as well.


Just topdress the barley then topdress more castings on top of that then water. A tea may be faster but the topdress will last 2 weeks. Malted barley (pureed) is pretty fast acting anyway. You see more of response the following day.


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## bizfactory (May 19, 2016)

Thanks hyroot, I'll probably do a mix of worm power, homemade compost and denver leaf compost to put on top of the barley. Really hope it helps but I'm ready to be let down again. Seems like no matter what I try, the room / tent is just toxic for anything I put in there.

I also notice that in the morning when the lights come on my plants droop the most and look the worst. They sorta pop up a bit during the day but never a healthy leaf structure or the typical praying for light.

I put another healthy clone still in a solo into the tent that is currently praying. We'll see if it starts to deteriorate in a few days. Could be pretty telling if it's the soil vs environment. Current screen shot from my webcam


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## PKHydro (May 19, 2016)

Just picked up everything I need to make my first no till pots. Here's my mix


BASE:
1/3 Peat
1/3 Pearlite 
1/3 compost/EWC 

AMENDMENTS:

1/2 cup per cu.ft

Kelp meal
Fishbone/Crab meal mixture

And a mixture of glacial rock dust, gypsum pellets, and oyster shell flour @ 4 cups per cu.ft.

I wanted to add some neem or karanja cake to the mix but apparently in Canada neem is strictly regulated and I can't find anywhere. 

I also picked up some mycorrrhizae to inoculate my roots with when I transplant into the no till pots. 

Can I just add a handful of worms to the pots when they get filled, and what worms should I be getting? There's a worm farm just down the road from me and they have a few different types.

If there's anything else that I should be adding in please let me know!


----------



## Tical_514 (May 19, 2016)

I get my neem meal from this website http://www.reindeersnatural.ca/neem_meal.htm
It is a important part of the mix

I would put 4-6 cup of glacial rock dust and 1/2 cup of gypsum.

You can add 1 Cup of Malted Barley Powder per cu.ft, its a good source of enzyme! That will help to start the life in your soil. You can use it as a top dress every week or 2, try to grind it as find as possible without heating it too much.

You should put worms in your pot, get some red wigglers, they eat the most, I think. Its good to have night crawlers too, they are bigger but they don't eat as much as the red wigglers. Good for aeration and diversity. You can get them in your own garden.

Top dress with dandelion, its the season!

And start a worm bin in a fabric pot

Check this forum https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/no-till-gardening-revisited.1400505/

Coots and Mofo have give alot of good infos!


----------



## GreenSanta (May 19, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I am fuckin pissed. I chopped my plants that were having all kinds of issues (droopy leaves, yellow / lime green color, slow growth) in my no till pots (2nd round). I ended up adding 1/9th of the total mix in pumice and obviously tilled / re-mixed the soil. I popped a health clone in one just as a tester to see if it would stay healthy or not. 2 days later it's droopy as fuck. I did a light watering during transplant but that's it. My lights are even turned down and all the way at the top of the tent. This plant was 100% healthy 2 days ago in a solo of FFOF.
> 
> I'm really starting to think there might be something really wrong with my environment. Plastic gassing off? Furnace / water heater leaking natural gas? I don't smell anything but I also have a fan exhausting out of the basement. Mold / fungus down there? I'm literally just making shit up now, I have no clue what's off. Temps are around 74 and rH is a bit low at 30-40%. Both of those numbers are not far off the other room where the clones are vegging.
> 
> ...


First, this plant just look transplant shock, I wouldnt worry about it at all. I M O , this is exactly what I was saying some while ago on this thread, people follow a no till recipe and call their garden a no till garden, of course the first round is fuking outstanding. That is when I said stop calling your grow a no till grow if you are on first or second round, I said come back when you are on your fifth round is still producing amazing flowers...

to be successful at no till, I M O, is to do raised beds on wheels and letting the beds rest between cycles, and when I say raised beds I mean big beds, if you grow in a 15 gallons pots and get over 10 oz I can almost guarantee you the next crop won't be nearly as good.

Some people prefer to make a fresh batch of supersoil every cycle to ensure maximum yield but I prefer the approach of remixing / reamending with high quality worm castings, and goof around with amendments, sometimes I fuck up but even when I do I ride it out and get great weed out of it.

I am sorry to be so pessimist about no-till, but for indoor garden for the *majority* of us it does not make all that much sense.


----------



## kmog33 (May 19, 2016)

Anyone know if. Can use heavily diluted neem oil and not kill my soil?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## calliandra (May 20, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> First, this plant just look transplant shock, I wouldnt worry about it at all. I M O , this is exactly what I was saying some while ago on this thread, people follow a no till recipe and call their garden a no till garden, of course the first round is fuking outstanding. That is when I said stop calling your grow a no till grow if you are on first or second round, I said come back when you are on your fifth round is still producing amazing flowers...
> 
> to be successful at no till, I M O, is to do raised beds on wheels and letting the beds rest between cycles, and when I say raised beds I mean big beds, if you grow in a 15 gallons pots and get over 10 oz I can almost guarantee you the next crop won't be nearly as good.
> 
> ...


Yeah I really get your drift, on the other hand I don't really understand why it would be so -- after all, plants create their optimal microbiology themselves, strongly localized to their root zones, outdoors too.
So I tend to see it more as "we're still missing something" as opposed to "doesn't really work" -- for now lol


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## hyroot (May 20, 2016)

You just have to add worms to your pots. As in nature there's worms already in the ground. No till is emulating nature. The problem with each next round is the soil gets compacted more and more each watering. So the worms prevent that from ever happening. They keep the soil loose. And plus their poop is gold and you don't really have to worry about adding castings either.


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## bizfactory (May 20, 2016)

I was 95% sure my soil was ok before re-mixing it, and this morning only seems to further prove that. This little clone was praying yesterday. The pic is 24 hours after being in my basement / tent. There's gotta be something off in my environment. That is so fast to start looking like shit and drooping that hard. My lights are dimmed and 3+ ft away, mid 70s temp and low 30s rH. I went down the VPD path but even 50% humidity didn't help much.

 

I actually pulled the 15 gallon from the basement and put it in a closet under some Vero 18s I veg with. The closet doesn't have any exhaust or circulation fans. I'm almost positive the plant will be looking better in a few days. I just have no fucking clue what's wrong with my basement / tent set up.


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## calliandra (May 20, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> I was 95% sure my soil was ok before re-mixing it, and this morning only seems to further prove that. This little clone was praying yesterday. The pic is 24 hours after being in my basement / tent. There's gotta be something off in my environment. That is so fast to start looking like shit and drooping that hard. My lights are dimmed and 3+ ft away, mid 70s temp and low 30s rH. I went down the VPD path but even 50% humidity didn't help much.
> 
> View attachment 3686401
> 
> ...


sheez sounds like you're in an annoying spot there - I've no genius ideas as to what the cause could be (sorry! ), but one question, why do you make a point of giving her less light?


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## bizfactory (May 22, 2016)

Friday vs Sunday out of the basement. Ridiculous. I guess I'm going to try super high rH, it's the only thing I can think of to try that is different between my closet / basement. Closet has no ventilation so it's higher humidity.


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## Quintessence (May 22, 2016)

Just completed my first ever harvest and this thread was invaluable in the process so I wanted to share the fruits of my labor and say thanks to everyone who contributed their knowledge. Everything is washed and is currently drying and I can't wait to get stuck into these delicious buds! Cheers!


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (May 23, 2016)

Quintessence said:


> Just completed my first ever harvest and this thread was invaluable in the process so I wanted to share the fruits of my labor and say thanks to everyone who contributed their knowledge. Everything is washed and is currently drying and I can't wait to get stuck into these delicious buds! Cheers!


Nice looking plants man.


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## Quintessence (May 23, 2016)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> Nice looking plants man.


Thanks!


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## Getgrowingson (May 25, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> View attachment 3688244
> 
> View attachment 3688243
> 
> Friday vs Sunday out of the basement. Ridiculous. I guess I'm going to try super high rH, it's the only thing I can think of to try that is different between my closet / basement. Closet has no ventilation so it's higher humidity.


What type of tent is it? Some cheap ones do off gas a nasty gas and will hurt you and your babies. Not sure if you said what type it is but something to look at.


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## bizfactory (May 25, 2016)

Getgrowingson said:


> What type of tent is it? Some cheap ones do off gas a nasty gas and will hurt you and your babies. Not sure if you said what type it is but something to look at.


Thanks man, I am actually going to take the tents and ventilation down to see if they can be happy in the basement at all. No clue what's down there but I'm actually getting scared to spend time down there myself.

The tents are HTG and Secret Jardin so def not total knock offs.

I've been reading about using ozone to kill mold, fungus, spores, etc. Running out of ideas fast. Just sucks when I know it's not anything I'm doing wrong myself. Bring the plants upstairs and they recover in a few days.


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## Al Yamoni (May 25, 2016)

Quintessence said:


> Just completed my first ever harvest and this thread was invaluable in the process so I wanted to share the fruits of my labor and say thanks to everyone who contributed their knowledge. Everything is washed and is currently drying and I can't wait to get stuck into these delicious buds! Cheers!


Is there a thread here on RIU on the bud washing tech? I'm interested to try it...


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## Quintessence (May 25, 2016)

Al Yamoni said:


> Is there a thread here on RIU on the bud washing tech? I'm interested to try it...


Not sure but I found my info over on 420 Mag. It's Doc420's technique if you want to google it. The long and short of it is: one 5 gal bucket of clean water (i used distilled) mixed with half a cup of baking soda and half a cup of lemon juice. That's the wash bucket. You then rinse in two other buckets (one after the other) filled with just regular filtered or distilled water. 15 seconds or so in each, swish em around but not too aggressively and hang to dry. 

I left some unwashed in order to compare, keep in mind, my buds are still in the tent drying and probably need another day or two before I get the stem snap, however I have noticed that the washed buds seem to be drying a little faster than the unwashed (unexpected). They both smell just as strong and I can't notice any negligible difference on the washed buds under the scope. Same trichome density and structure on both. I'll looking forward to seeing how they compare when smoked.


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## Quintessence (May 25, 2016)

The first video I found on the subject.


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## Afgan King (May 25, 2016)

So been looking thru here and there is so much to take in. I've been growing synthetic for about 10 years now and have on a commercial level. My new goal is to conquer rols and this seems like the right thread to ask in. I'm wondering if anyone has a list of their mix like if I were to go to the store and buy it money isn't issue for this project I've always been amazed by the smoke of some true organics. Is there anyone here willing to take me under their wing?


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## Al Yamoni (May 25, 2016)

Quintessence said:


> Not sure but I found my info over on 420 Mag. It's Doc420's technique if you want to google it. The long and short of it is: one 5 gal bucket of clean water (i used distilled) mixed with half a cup of baking soda and half a cup of lemon juice. That's the wash bucket. You then rinse in two other buckets (one after the other) filled with just regular filtered or distilled water. 15 seconds or so in each, swish em around but not too aggressively and hang to dry.
> 
> I left some unwashed in order to compare, keep in mind, my buds are still in the tent drying and probably need another day or two before I get the stem snap, however I have noticed that the washed buds seem to be drying a little faster than the unwashed (unexpected). They both smell just as strong and I can't notice any negligible difference on the washed buds under the scope. Same trichome density and structure on both. I'll looking forward to seeing how they compare when smoked.


Thanks for the details, I appreciate that. I have seen the dirty water that comes from the wash and its enough to peak my interest...


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## Joe Blows Trees (May 25, 2016)

Afgan King said:


> So been looking thru here and there is so much to take in. I've been growing synthetic for about 10 years now and have on a commercial level. My new goal is to conquer rols and this seems like the right thread to ask in. I'm wondering if anyone has a list of their mix like if I were to go to the store and buy it money isn't issue for this project I've always been amazed by the smoke of some true organics. Is there anyone here willing to take me under their wing?





headtreep said:


> This is one of my current mixes I'm using. I still have some other mixes going as well with more ingredients but I truly believe that this is a great start for everyone that is very reasonably priced. I used to amend commerical soils until I got enlighten.
> 
> Soil Base - Per Cubic Foot
> 
> ...


This should be a good start for you.


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## whitebb2727 (May 25, 2016)

Mephisto Heisenberg. Living soil.


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## Afgan King (May 25, 2016)

Joe Blows Trees said:


> This should be a good start for you.


Thank u I just needed to be pointed in the right direction


whitebb2727 said:


> Mephisto Heisenberg. Living soil.
> View attachment 3691335


That's shits beautiful


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## GreenSanta (May 26, 2016)

Quintessence said:


> The first video I found on the subject.


This is awesome, I started washing my buds to clean spider mites every now and again, I just give em a good spray with water from the tap, a tip here, before I hang to dry I twist in the stem in between my index and my thumb to spin the buds like a car wash thing would spin almost, takes most of the water off. I have found that when I rinse/wash my buds, they seem to dry faster! comes out very clean looking, some strain dry to look darker washed vs not washed. Thanks for sharing, makes me feel better about washing my buds when I have to and I will try the bucket technique!!


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## Quintessence (May 27, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> This is awesome, I started washing my buds to clean spider mites every now and again, I just give em a good spray with water from the tap, a tip here, before I hang to dry I twist in the stem in between my index and my thumb to spin the buds like a car wash thing would spin almost, takes most of the water off. I have found that when I rinse/wash my buds, they seem to dry faster! comes out very clean looking, some strain dry to look darker washed vs not washed. Thanks for sharing, makes me feel better about washing my buds when I have to and I will try the bucket technique!!


I love your spinning idea and yes I agree that washed buds dry faster. Bud washing FTW!!


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## Peace Warrior (May 27, 2016)

I'm new to notill. I have a dilemma. Short story.
I had broad mites There gone naturally with neem, and many essential oils used at a spray. Also, I have used fresh aloe and coconut juice in a spray on off days along with compost and botanical teas. They are now happy. I put a top dressing on too. I started these plants in Nectar for the Gods soil #4 and used their nuts. But, I lost the crop before due to the bugs, so I could not afford those crazy nut prices. So I went on line to find a solution and stumbled across notill information. I had heard a little but was intimidated. The more I read the more interested I became. Wow! I just added a top dressing and planted a clover cover crop spray and water with teas..........I also put some worms into the pots. I don't really know what I'm doing...HELP! So now I have my babies that need to be transplanted because their not really babies any more. I have been going crazy looking at different recipes and I can't decide. I was wondering if there might be a recipe that I can plant into right away? I can't wait 6 weeks. Something I can put together and not have it cost 500 like it does from buld-a-soil or KIS, (Great companies). I have 12 plants going into 15 gallon pots. Here are a few websites that make soil for organic outdoor gardens. I'm wondering is someone could look at it and let me know If any of them would work for now. Then maybe recommend a recipe for my next cycle.
On this site I'm looking at: Growers Best Blend. They say they make it specially for cannabis growers but never heard of anyone using it for indoor. They don't see why it wouldn't work.
http://3rpspq2uihpo4pxh330sjdez.wpen...aul3.4.16-.pdf
Here is the other one that also says the same thing.
It's the White Lighting mix:
http://fineroutdoorliving.com/composts6.php
I'm over the top stressed about all this. So any support is greatly appreciated. I also was wondering if I could add any thing to any of these. They told me I could plant directly into the soil right away. Thanks so much if you can help me.


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## GreenSanta (May 27, 2016)

Peace Warrior said:


> I'm new to notill. I have a dilemma. Short story.
> I had broad mites There gone naturally with neem, and many essential oils used at a spray. Also, I have used fresh aloe and coconut juice in a spray on off days along with compost and botanical teas. They are now happy. I put a top dressing on too. I started these plants in Nectar for the Gods soil #4 and used their nuts. But, I lost the crop before due to the bugs, so I could not afford those crazy nut prices. So I went on line to find a solution and stumbled across notill information. I had heard a little but was intimidated. The more I read the more interested I became. Wow! I just added a top dressing and planted a clover cover crop spray and water with teas..........I also put some worms into the pots. I don't really know what I'm doing...HELP! So now I have my babies that need to be transplanted because their not really babies any more. I have been going crazy looking at different recipes and I can't decide. I was wondering if there might be a recipe that I can plant into right away? I can't wait 6 weeks. Something I can put together and not have it cost 500 like it does from buld-a-soil or KIS, (Great companies). I have 12 plants going into 15 gallon pots. Here are a few websites that make soil for organic outdoor gardens. I'm wondering is someone could look at it and let me know If any of them would work for now. Then maybe recommend a recipe for my next cycle.
> On this site I'm looking at: Growers Best Blend. They say they make it specially for cannabis growers but never heard of anyone using it for indoor. They don't see why it wouldn't work.
> http://3rpspq2uihpo4pxh330sjdez.wpen...aul3.4.16-.pdf
> ...


If you are not that worried about yield and want quality smoke, just mix potting soil and well made fresh local worm castings, that's it. If you want more yield you can also do this and buy some organic liquid nutrients like a 4-4-4 or whatever. Best cheapest solution for you right now.


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## Quintessence (May 27, 2016)

Peace Warrior said:


> I'm new to notill. I have a dilemma. Short story.
> I had broad mites There gone naturally with neem, and many essential oils used at a spray. Also, I have used fresh aloe and coconut juice in a spray on off days along with compost and botanical teas. They are now happy. I put a top dressing on too. I started these plants in Nectar for the Gods soil #4 and used their nuts. But, I lost the crop before due to the bugs, so I could not afford those crazy nut prices. So I went on line to find a solution and stumbled across notill information. I had heard a little but was intimidated. The more I read the more interested I became. Wow! I just added a top dressing and planted a clover cover crop spray and water with teas..........I also put some worms into the pots. I don't really know what I'm doing...HELP! So now I have my babies that need to be transplanted because their not really babies any more. I have been going crazy looking at different recipes and I can't decide. I was wondering if there might be a recipe that I can plant into right away? I can't wait 6 weeks. Something I can put together and not have it cost 500 like it does from buld-a-soil or KIS, (Great companies). I have 12 plants going into 15 gallon pots. Here are a few websites that make soil for organic outdoor gardens. I'm wondering is someone could look at it and let me know If any of them would work for now. Then maybe recommend a recipe for my next cycle.
> On this site I'm looking at: Growers Best Blend. They say they make it specially for cannabis growers but never heard of anyone using it for indoor. They don't see why it wouldn't work.
> http://3rpspq2uihpo4pxh330sjdez.wpen...aul3.4.16-.pdf
> ...


FYI.. I bought the build a soil nutrient/mineral kit and mixed up my own soil using locally purchased peat, pumice, compost (bu's malibu and good quality ewc) and made about 10 cubic feet of soil. I only cooked it for a week and now I'm using it with great success The trick is feeding it with lots of microbes before you do the week long cook. I used a compost tea that I made along with some EM1. The pile was hot within a day and stayed warm for about a week. I turned it a couple times, planted and my girls are doing great. If you go this route you'll save a considerable amount of $ over buying the pre-made bags from build a soil. If you go back to the first page of this thread, Cann has a great set of instructions for soil building.


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## Peace Warrior (May 27, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> If you are not that worried about yield and want quality smoke, just mix potting soil and well made fresh local worm castings, that's it. If you want more yield you can also do this and buy some organic liquid nutrients like a 4-4-4 or whatever. Best cheapest solution for you right now.


Thanks, It's great to get support and suggestions from people that have experience.


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## Peace Warrior (May 28, 2016)

Does anyone have or know of a recipe for no-till that uses coconut coir instead of peat-moss? Or can I just replace the peat-moss using any of the good no-till recipes?


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## Getgrowingson (May 28, 2016)

Peace Warrior said:


> Does anyone have or know of a recipe for no-till that uses coconut coir instead of peat-moss? Or can I just replace the peat-moss using any of the good no-till recipes?


I did 50/50 coco but I'm a newb with organics. Read this whole thread and I believe a couple have done it with success. I like the aeration of coco so instead of straight peat I threw some in. Figured a little diversity never hurt anything.


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## Peace Warrior (May 29, 2016)

Getgrowingson said:


> I did 50/50 coco but I'm a newb with organics. Read this whole thread and I believe a couple have done it with success. I like the aeration of coco so instead of straight peat I threw some in. Figured a little diversity never hurt anything.


Thanks, I will.


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## Peace Warrior (May 29, 2016)

More questions. What do all these stand for? I have been reading and reading and everyone else seems to know so they don't explain. I've even done searches but find all kinds of other meanings. ACT, EWU, FPE, CaCO3, SPR.


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## Becorath (May 29, 2016)

Act- aerated compost tea 
Caco3- calcium carbonate
Ewu? Not sure. Ewc is earthworm castings. 
Fpe- fermented plant extracts
Spr- I'm assuming are sprouts. 

Sent from my SM-G930V using Rollitup mobile app


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## Peace Warrior (May 29, 2016)

Becorath said:


> Act- aerated compost tea
> Caco3- calcium carbonate
> Ewu? Not sure. Ewc is earthworm castings.
> Fpe- fermented plant extracts
> ...


Thanks, I thought so an some of them but not completely
sure. I was wondering when people do a top dressing with earthworm castings do they make it muddy with water or just put in on dry?


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (May 29, 2016)

I put mine on top and then water. Works great!


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## hyroot (May 31, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> This is awesome, I started washing my buds to clean spider mites every now and again, I just give em a good spray with water from the tap, a tip here, before I hang to dry I twist in the stem in between my index and my thumb to spin the buds like a car wash thing would spin almost, takes most of the water off. I have found that when I rinse/wash my buds, they seem to dry faster! comes out very clean looking, some strain dry to look darker washed vs not washed. Thanks for sharing, makes me feel better about washing my buds when I have to and I will try the bucket technique!!



add a humidifier to your rooms. You probably have low rh up there. Being that it's as dry there as it is here outside.

The highest it gets out here is 20-30% outside. Normally 12% . Sometimes 50% if it rains. I have a honeywell humidifier that I got from amazon. It works good. I vent the the room too. If the rh gets too high I can shut off the humidifier. It never does. The rh stays around 40% and my temps are around 75 F.


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## GreenSanta (May 31, 2016)

My room\basement are hovering around 40%, room runs a little hotter than it should, is a humidifier as power hungry as a dehumidifier? in my case I think I will simply use more soil in the grow room for the summer!! I dont like to go over 40% because I exhaust in the basement and there is no way I will risk the slightest bit of mold, 40% is my comfort zone!!


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## hyroot (May 31, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> My room\basement are hovering around 40%, room runs a little hotter than it should, is a humidifier as power hungry as a dehumidifier? in my case I think I will simply use more soil in the grow room for the summer!! I dont like to go over 40% because I exhaust in the basement and there is no way I will risk the slightest bit of mold, 40% is my comfort zone!!


Its a regular humidifier not industrial. But better quality than what I saw at Walmart. It pulls 50 watts. Supposedly can do a 500 Square foot room. The room it's in is 12x12. It holds 1.5 gallons of water. It can run 24 hours before filling. I usually just top it off before then. The model is honeywell hcm 350. I paid $60 on amazon.


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## st0wandgrow (May 31, 2016)

Peace Warrior said:


> Does anyone have or know of a recipe for no-till that uses coconut coir instead of peat-moss? Or can I just replace the peat-moss using any of the good no-till recipes?


You can absolutely substitute coco coir for peat moss. It has better structure, a more favorable ph, and is more environmentally friendly imo. The downside is it apparently has a lower CEC, but I never found that to be a problem. If you go this route, there's a couple things to keep in mind: The ph is pretty much right where you want it, so no need to add a bunch of liming agents. About 1/2 cup per cf of oyster shell flour is sufficient. Also, you will need to add sulfur. Garden Gypsum works well.

Having said that, please consider using leaf mold in the future. If you have trees in your yard, don't toss the leaves! Blow/rake them in to a pile, and run them over with a lawn mower. Project a source of Nitrogen on them (like alfalfa pellets), then wet the pile down. You can then just leave the pile be, or turn every so often to speed things up if you wish. 12 months later you'll have a base ingredient that is superior to peat/coco coir, and it's free!


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## elkamino (May 31, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> You can absolutely substitute coco coir for peat moss. It has better structure, a more favorable ph, and is more environmentally friendly imo. The downside is it apparently has a lower CEC, but I never found that to be a problem. If you go this route, there's a couple things to keep in mind: The ph is pretty much right where you want it, so no need to add a bunch of liming agents. About 1/2 cup per cf of oyster shell flour is sufficient. Also, you will need to add sulfur. Garden Gypsum works well.
> 
> Having said that, please consider using leaf mold in the future. If you have trees in your yard, don't toss the leaves! Blow/rake them in to a pile, and run them over with a lawn mower. Project a source of Nitrogen on them (like alfalfa pellets), then wet the pile down. You can then just leave the pile be, or turn every so often to speed things up if you wish. 12 months later you'll have a base ingredient that is superior to peat/coco coir, and it's free!


Thanks for that, especially re: the leaf mold, because I want to use it. I live in an apt and don;t have trees. But I have lots of forests around, where leaf mold could easily be harvested. What does one look for in a leaf mold? Alders are prolific here in AK, colonizers after glaciers/disturbance and grow quickly- any reason not to use outdoor, wild, alder leaf mold as a 1/3 of my soil? And can I treat it just like compost in a re-used Subcool/BAS soil?

Cottonwood, spruce and fir mold are my other easy/everywhere options.

Thank you.

Also, I gotta share this somewhere, the ROLS threats is about the best place. I work in a garden center and took a call the other day, a guy complaining he had too many earthworms! "I just pull up the grass and there's HUNDREDS, maybe thousands! What do you have that kills earthworms, but not grass?" 

I'm like, well, other than being newly invasive in Alaska, most folks consider earthworms a great indicator of soil health, besides they make vermicompost, the best fertilizer, plus aeration" and on about things I've learned about in this thread and others. How cool right? 

Anyway, the worms are surfacing in his yard, leave piles of castings on top (top-dressing lol) so big he's hitting them with the mower, and they're making his super smooth yard super bumpy! Lol.

Well I read up a bit about it online and there's lots of people with the same complaint. How crazy is that. 

I just told him to let it dry out and water less, the worms will stay in the soil and won't come up as much, but that he shouldn't try to kill them. WTF.


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## st0wandgrow (May 31, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Thanks for that, especially re: the leaf mold, because I want to use it. I live in an apt and don;t have trees. But I have lots of forests around, where leaf mold could easily be harvested. What does one look for in a leaf mold? Alders are prolific here in AK, colonizers after glaciers/disturbance and grow quickly- any reason not to use outdoor, wild, alder leaf mold as a 1/3 of my soil? And can I treat it just like compost in a re-used Subcool/BAS soil?
> 
> Cottonwood, spruce and fir mold are my other easy/everywhere options.
> 
> ...


I am by no means an expert on the topic, but I would have to believe that both the leaf mold and your native Alaskan soil would be absolutely kick ass as part of your base! To be clear, I use the leaf mold as a substitute for peat/coco and not as a replacement for my compost. It certainly will have a good deal of fungi in it (I get so many mushrooms growing in my soil now it's crazy) but I still add 25%-33% EWC to my base.

I'd love to see you try it. Maybe even just a container or two in your garden with some leaf mold/native soil to see how it stacks up to your normal regiment. A lil side x side test would be cool to see....

Edit: that's funny about that guy and his worm "problem"! I actually find myself saving worms after a rain that come up to chill on my driveway. I walk around with a bucket and collect them and put them in my veggie garden. Otherwise it's a worm holocaust on my driveway the next day when they're all dried out and dead.


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## st0wandgrow (May 31, 2016)

Oh, and for reference sake here's a couple photos from the pile I made last fall. It's not quite "ready" yet IMO, but by this fall it should be perfect. It should look very similar to wet peat moss. Maybe a lil darker in color, but a similar look and feel to it.


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## Becorath (May 31, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> ou will need to add sulfur. Garden Gypsum works well.





Peace Warrior said:


> Thanks, I thought so an some of them but not completely
> sure. I was wondering when people do a top dressing with earthworm castings do they make it muddy with water or just put in on dry?


You can do either. I tend to just top dress dry and water it in. If you did a sludge, you'd still need to water it in.


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## elkamino (Jun 1, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> I am by no means an expert on the topic, but I would have to believe that both the leaf mold and your native Alaskan soil would be absolutely kick ass as part of your base! To be clear, I use the leaf mold as a substitute for peat/coco and not as a replacement for my compost. It certainly will have a good deal of fungi in it (I get so many mushrooms growing in my soil now it's crazy) but I still add 25%-33% EWC to my base.
> 
> I'd love to see you try it. Maybe even just a container or two in your garden with some leaf mold/native soil to see how it stacks up to your normal regiment. A lil side x side test would be cool to see....
> 
> Edit: that's funny about that guy and his worm "problem"! I actually find myself saving worms after a rain that come up to chill on my driveway. I walk around with a bucket and collect them and put them in my veggie garden. Otherwise it's a worm holocaust on my driveway the next day when they're all dried out and dead.


Thanks for the clarification re: using leaf mold as a replacemnt for coco and not compost. If I get around to harvesting some this busy summer I'll definitely post here. I figure a years-decomposed batch might almost look like pure peat? I'll start digging around when we go on hikes.

I also wonder about collecting glacier dust/gravel here- it seems funny to buy some from BAS, but I have lol. Its hard to know its make-up, but every possible size is sorted and available along river gravel bars, in infinite amounts, and it keeps coming. In fact Seward AK was built atop an alluvial fan in Resurrection Bay and the river keeps bringing the gravel to the point they have to deal with it big time. In fact there's a gravel company right on an island on your way into town, no pit required the river just keep tumbling tens of thousands of tons of rocks downstream every year, right to their ramp. Gravel fill is free for anyone, you just pay for the truck to deliver it.


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 1, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Thanks for the clarification re: using leaf mold as a replacemnt for coco and not compost. If I get around to harvesting some this busy summer I'll definitely post here. I figure a years-decomposed batch might almost look like pure peat? I'll start digging around when we go on hikes.
> 
> I also wonder about collecting glacier dust/gravel here- it seems funny to buy some from BAS, but I have lol. Its hard to know its make-up, but every possible size is sorted and available along river gravel bars, in infinite amounts, and it keeps coming. In fact Seward AK was built atop an alluvial fan in Resurrection Bay and the river keeps bringing the gravel to the point they have to deal with it big time. In fact there's a gravel company right on an island on your way into town, no pit required the river just keep tumbling tens of thousands of tons of rocks downstream every year, right to their ramp. Gravel fill is free for anyone, you just pay for the truck to deliver it.


Yeah, I'd say you have a treasure trove of amendments at your finger tips living there. Glacial rock dust is something most of us have to buy online. Heck, with the fishing industry up there you could make some great ferments chalk full of goodies. I bet you could put together a great soil for free with everything you have access to!


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 5, 2016)

Ahhh... the sweet sound of organic talk in the morning. Good to be back home.


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## DonBrennon (Jun 5, 2016)

Mad Hamish said:


> Ahhh... the sweet sound of organic talk in the morning. Good to be back home.


I love the smell of neemmeal in the morning................blah, blah, blah,.................smells like victory, lol


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 5, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I love the smell of neemmeal in the morning................blah, blah, blah,.................smells like victory, lol


Worm poop is the smell of victory hehehehe


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## st0wandgrow (Jun 5, 2016)

Mad Hamish said:


> Ahhh... the sweet sound of organic talk in the morning. Good to be back home.


Have you seen who's back??


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## Mad Hamish (Jun 5, 2016)

st0wandgrow said:


> Have you seen who's back??


Yessir first thing as I opened up RIU. And Myco is active too...


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jun 9, 2016)

Blue Lemon Thai - ROLS


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## kmog33 (Jun 10, 2016)

Ok so for you living soil guys. Have my first run going and most of my plants in the bed look like this




dark green and happy. A couple (1-2) of them in the same bed are getting a bit lighter and getting minor deff/lockout. Like this.




any easy fix?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GreenSanta (Jun 11, 2016)

I don't have any recommendation other than a vermicompost topdress... . more often than not I would do nothing here.


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## GreenSanta (Jun 11, 2016)

Toby Hemenway
May 5
Some amazing news on the soil science front. Humus doesn't exist. Several recent articles are showing that humic and fulvic acids and many of the other humic components of soil are artifacts of the alkaline treatment that is used to measure humus content, and don't, in fact, exist in untreated soil. When OM is measured using non-destructive methods such as NMR spectroscopy, no humic compounds can be found. Organic matter does not degrade into "stable" humic components, it simply decomposes into a continuum of smaller and smaller carbon compounds. There is constant, slow turnover of carbon in soils, not a semi-permanent trapping of carbon into "humus." Humus, meaning a stable form of carbon visualized by alkaline extraction, seems not to exist. It's an artifact of the lab method. This is kind of blow-away news for those of us who teach soil science--and it's a good lesson on how the methods we use determines what we see. Teachers, start revising how you teach soils, and stop talking about humus.

Most of the articles on this are behind journal paywalls, but some of the abstracts are available. One article is Lehmann, J.; Kleber, M. (2015-12-03), "The contentious nature of soil organic matter", Nature 528:60-68. There is a short video based on that article linked below.


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## Chronikool (Jun 11, 2016)

Thought id throw up an update of some of my organic practices...


 
Use this mix of comfrey, fish and seaweed and rainwater and random liquid from my EM1 guff for my plants in veg. Still lots of bits in it....so no good in a irrigation system. A delicious pong for sure 

 
Also use this as a flood when my no till plantz are done flowering and the soil is in itz 'rest and recover' mode. I pull the main stall out, top up with worm castings and amended soil, sprinkle new micro clover/ afalfa mix and water with comfrey brew. (Stand plants for 2 to 3 weeks)


 
Makes for a happy veg tent. (foilar every other day with local company'z essential oils + fish and seaweed mix for fert and pest prevention.


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## m4s73r (Jun 19, 2016)

Just had to swing in and say thanks to all the posters in here. Just chopped my first 4 organic no till pots and they look great. 
So just wondering what you do after the harvest. growing in coots mix, and using clover as a living mulch. worked really well. Now ive harvested and I have all this clover growing plus the leftovers from the plant. I got some worm casting at the ready as well as some kelp meal. These pots wont have anything planted in them again for 2 months. So what should I do with them for the next 60 days to ensure theyre good and ready to go for the next round? as of right now, ive piled all the leaves and stick on top of the plant, wetted it down and covered it.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jun 19, 2016)

Critical Sensi Star - ROLS


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jun 19, 2016)

Don't know why the double pic. Oh well,twice as nice!


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## apbx720 (Jun 27, 2016)

Hey guys Hola! Long time lurker here, first time poster. Some of u might remember me from the bodhi thread, howdy. 

Question. Im relatively new to organic living soil. Grew hydro for years, made the switch from the dark side bout a year ago. Love my organic soil

One problem i seem to have is keeping some of my phenos full w Mg. Some just cant get enough. I find myself foliar spraying w epsom salts alot. I dnt ammend w dol lime because all i can get is the long lasting granular kind. I live in the desert so cooking soil is not so easy for me. Its hard to get a micro colony goin when the temps soar past 120 on the reg. 

Basically what i do is i make a custom soil mix based off the recipe here at the beginning of the thread(Cann's recipe). And since i cant cook it i will mix in 50% roots organics or ffof, and amend w oyster shell azomite and hf 5-5-5 all purp dry fert. This lets my plants feed while the rest of the nutes break down. Works pretty damn good honestly. 

My prob is i dnt wanna buy bag soil anymore. But when i try to make my own, im always getting Mg def. I feel like even if i leave my soil to cook for a month, nothing breaks downn especially the granular dol lime i have. 

Any suggestions on what to add for more available Mg? Ive tried langbenite, epsom salts, molasses, calmag, etc. Only thing that keeps em full w Mg is epsom salts foliar at 4-5 tbs per gal, but i cant spray em in late flower.


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## apbx720 (Jun 27, 2016)

kmog33 said:


> Ok so for you living soil guys. Have my first run going and most of my plants in the bed look like this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kmog that looks to me like an Mg problem. Did u ever figure it out? Cuz i have mg probs just like that sometimes and im yet to totally understand it. Have u checked ur ph?

Ive got a ph soil probe on order. I know they say u dnt need it in organic soil but i need it lol. To me its like when yr car breaks down whats the first thing u do? U check if it has GAS. Same w ph. Theres a prob, whats the ph is my first question. I wonder if urs is a ph problem?

Anyways, hope u figure it out bro! Peace!


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## Chronikool (Jun 27, 2016)

apbx720 said:


> Hey guys Hola! Long time lurker here, first time poster. Some of u might remember me from the bodhi thread, howdy.
> 
> Question. Im relatively new to organic living soil. Grew hydro for years, made the switch from the dark side bout a year ago. Love my organic soil
> 
> ...


Why dont you water with Epsom salts...?


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## apbx720 (Jun 27, 2016)

Chronikool said:


> Why dont you water with Epsom salts...?


I do, occasionally. Mostly foliar tho. Not sure of its affects on the micro herd

Edit: maybe i shoulda mentioned- things are going fine, its not like its all hell broke loose. I shoulda mentioned that im trying to go more w a "water only" type soil. Yes i can keep em happy w fertigation and foliar feeding, but i wanna get away from having to mix water everyday. What could be amended that would supply enough Mg, given my situation?


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## Chronikool (Jun 27, 2016)

apbx720 said:


> I do, occasionally. Mostly foliar tho. Not sure of its affects on the micro herd
> 
> Edit: maybe i shoulda mentioned- things are going fine, its not like its all hell broke loose. I shoulda mentioned that im trying to go more w a "water only" type soil. Yes i can keep em happy w fertigation and foliar feeding, but i wanna get away from having to mix water everyday. What could be amended that would supply enough Mg, given my situation?


What size potz..? No ACT's..? I put Epsom saltz straight into my res (only use it in flower) and they go through my Blumats. Microlife seemz to be flourishing if the worm count is any indication.. ( thatz what i use) heading into my 5 round with this soil...


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## apbx720 (Jun 27, 2016)

Chronikool said:


> What size potz..? No ACT's..? I put Epsom saltz straight into my res (only use it in flower) and they go through my Blumats. Microlife seemz to be flourishing if the worm count is any indication.. ( thatz what i use) heading into my 5 round with this soil...


Sounds good! Ive heard alot of people water w epsom salts w great success. Im always sketchy tho and im always cautious. 

Yes aact prolly weekly (simple recipe compost+molasses+alfalfa+kelp+fish hyd. 

I was doing 7 gal fab pots and still am. Not no til but organic living. But i just started round 1 no til 4×4' raised bed. I didnt amend w dolomite but used oyster shell, langbenite, green sand, azomite etc. Hope i will have enough Mg

What dilution rate do u use for the ES root drench? Do u amend with dol lime? Or topdress ES?


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## Chronikool (Jun 27, 2016)

apbx720 said:


> Sounds good! Ive heard alot of people water w epsom salts w great success. Im always sketchy tho and im always cautious.
> 
> Yes aact prolly weekly (simple recipe compost+molasses+alfalfa+kelp+fish hyd.
> 
> ...


Ok. Seem to have it locked in pretty good. 

Ummmmm....not really sure..throw some in to my reseviour when i top it up with a 10litre bucket..? A tablespoon maybe..??

I used dolomite lime in my initial soil start up...now i dont bother at all with it.

Now im trying to work oit where my magnesium source comes from..? Probably the rock dust and kelp mix i top dress with every week..?

Not sure if Comfrey is high in mag...but i water with that every watering in veg.

Soooo just a little bit of everything often i guess..haha


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## JayY2015 (Jun 27, 2016)

I just mixed up a batch listed below 
Whats is a good organic silica additive and is there anything for bud swell and bud booster to top dress with in flowering or a alfalfa or grass tea. 
I have no idea what I am doing just want to grow some fire organic with huge buds hahaha


5 gallon bucket Premier sphagnum peat moss
5 gallon bucket Worm Castings
5 gallon bucket perlite
1 cup kelp meal
1 cup neem meal
1 cup crusteacean meal

1 cup gypsum
1 cup oyster shell flour

6 cups of Rock dusts (basalt,glacial,granite)


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## Chronikool (Jun 27, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I just mixed up a batch listed below
> Whats is a good organic silica additive and is there anything for bud swell and bud booster to top dress with in flowering or a alfalfa or grass tea.
> I have no idea what I am doing just want to grow some fire organic with huge buds hahaha
> 
> ...


Your rockdusts will take care of the silica. 

As for boost... P/K high additives such as comfrey, (i water with) guanos (also water in), kelp perhaps (pretty slow release)

Some people like to add blackstrap molasses (water) toward the end of flowering (week 5 onwardz)

As for teas, i dont subscribe anymore...


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## kmog33 (Jun 27, 2016)

apbx720 said:


> Kmog that looks to me like an Mg problem. Did u ever figure it out? Cuz i have mg probs just like that sometimes and im yet to totally understand it. Have u checked ur ph?
> 
> Ive got a ph soil probe on order. I know they say u dnt need it in organic soil but i need it lol. To me its like when yr car breaks down whats the first thing u do? U check if it has GAS. Same w ph. Theres a prob, whats the ph is my first question. I wonder if urs is a ph problem?
> 
> Anyways, hope u figure it out bro! Peace!


Thanks for the post. It was either potassium deficient or could access the p, just leveling out now. Other than being a bit ugly, no harm done. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## GreenSanta (Jun 28, 2016)

Chronikool said:


> Your rockdusts will take care of the silica.
> 
> As for boost... P/K high additives such as comfrey, (i water with) guanos (also water in), kelp perhaps (pretty slow release)
> 
> ...


I grow my best pot when I leave them plants alone, big pots, lots of room for roots, lots of worm casting, tap water, lol, so easy!!


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jun 28, 2016)

Blueberry Gum - ROLS


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## Crab Pot (Jun 28, 2016)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> Blueberry Gum - ROLS



Nicccccceee!!!


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jun 29, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Nicccccceee!!!


Thanks man!


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## bizfactory (Jun 30, 2016)

Hey ya'll, got a couple quick questions. 

I have a LA Chocolat at 12F in a 15 gallon rols fabric pot in essentially coots mix on the 3rd round. I mostly top dress infrequently, give it aloe, coconut, and sone dandelion fpj but not other feeding really. Malted barley on top every 2 weeks as well. 

Anyways the LA is looking pretty limey and almost yellow in some spots. I want to hit it with an N boost before it gets much worse. My question is.. should I get some Neptune's hydrolyzed fish fert or just top dress with some homemade ewc from my buddy? or do both? Any long term downsides to the fish hydrolysate? I'm worried the ewc won't act fast enough. Thoughts?


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## Crab Pot (Jun 30, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Hey ya'll, got a couple quick questions.
> 
> I have a LA Chocolat at 12F in a 15 gallon rols fabric pot in essentially coots mix on the 3rd round. I mostly top dress infrequently, give it aloe, coconut, and sone dandelion fpj but not other feeding really. Malted barley on top every 2 weeks as well.
> 
> Anyways the LA is looking pretty limey and almost yellow in some spots. I want to hit it with an N boost before it gets much worse. My question is.. should I get some Neptune's hydrolyzed fish fert or just top dress with some homemade ewc from my buddy? or do both? Any long term downsides to the fish hydrolysate? I'm worried the ewc won't act fast enough. Thoughts?


I would top dress with a little kelp and neem seed meal mix up with worm castings and water that in with the fish hydrolysate. Another option you may want to consider would be to make a kelp/neem tea but I would still top dress as mentioned.


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## JayY2015 (Jun 30, 2016)

Do I use the comfrey root powder and do I just mix it in with all the soil or top dress?

I also seen some stuff on bio char is it needed?


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## Crab Pot (Jul 1, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> Do I use the comfrey root powder and do I just mix it in with all the soil or top dress?
> 
> I also seen some stuff on bio char is it needed?


Top dress the comfrey root powder at the beginning of flower and add a inch or two of compost or worm castings with it if you can. I prefer fresh comfrey but powder will work fine.

If your going to recycle or no-till your soil then I would definitely use bio char @ 6 -8 cups per cubic foot.


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## GreenSanta (Jul 3, 2016)

Fish can stink up the room, if u were outside I'd say go for it, how far into flowering are u? I would probably ride it out or topdress and reammend heavily next round. My room is filled with early fading plants now, not going to stress it but i know to add more food next plant because my current mix is weak. I might actually have to spend a bit on fertilizer....


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## Mohican (Jul 4, 2016)

Hydrolyzed fish smells like vegetable soup.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jul 10, 2016)

Dinachem - ROLS


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## JayY2015 (Jul 22, 2016)

anyone know anything about using probiotics in rols ?


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> anyone know anything about using probiotics in rols ?


What do you want to know?

I make labs, fermented plant extracts, fermented fish fertz. 

I incorporate those with my worms bins too


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## JayY2015 (Jul 23, 2016)

I just wanted to know recipes and how to apply it, amend it in the soil or make teas ?


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I just wanted to know recipes and how to apply it, amend it in the soil or make teas ?


*
recipe for labs, fpe, fish ferment, bims, bokashi*
http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/

*probiotic farmers alliance group*
https://www.facebook.com/groups/526778890711264/

*better version of bokashi*
http://gro-kashi.com/

*recipe for labs and fpe*
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1cxlUTCpm6NCKGWiMVpmA5YlO6J2kCu5g6QaNXfgjauo/mobilebasic?pli=1

*diy gro kashi recipe*
Dry Ingredient List:


Red Wheat 5 gallon
Azomite 1 cup
Sea+Real Salt 1 TBSP
Liquid Fermentation Ingredient List (plus 1/5 teaspoon EM Super Cera)


Water 2.5 Gallons (spring water or other non chlorinated, cloromine free water)
Black Strap Mollasses 2.5 Oz
Organic Beet Root Juice 2.5 Oz
Youngevity btt 2.0 organic 2.5 Oz (dry, but mix with your water)
EM-1 Microbial Innoculant 2.5 Oz


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## DonBrennon (Jul 24, 2016)

hyroot said:


> *recipe for labs, fpe, fish ferment, bims, bokashi*
> http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/
> 
> *probiotic farmers alliance group*
> ...


Do you think buying EM.1 is worth it?............I already make my own LAB and EM.1 works out at $30 for a quart where I am, cheapest option I could find. From what I understand, the milk part of the LAB making process isolates the lactic acid bacteria so that's all you are getting with LAB? Where as EM.1 has other microbes in it such as PNSB etc, which can't be present in LAB, can it?

Just like to know your thoughts on it, I did want to buy Gro-kashi, but that's just not an option here, so I'm gonna have to try and make my own


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## hyroot (Jul 24, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Do you think buying EM.1 is worth it?............I already make my own LAB and EM.1 works out at $30 for a quart where I am, cheapest option I could find. From what I understand, the milk part of the LAB making process isolates the lactic acid bacteria so that's all you are getting with LAB? Where as EM.1 has other microbes in it such as PNSB etc, which can't be present in LAB, can it?
> 
> Just like to know your thoughts on it, I did want to buy Gro-kashi, but that's just not an option here, so I'm gonna have to try and make my own



em1 has different microbes than labs. It's a proprietary blend. Making your own labs and kashi is fine. and using labs instead of em1. That's what I'm doing. I have gro kashi too. so will see if they're is a difference soon. kashi takes a month to ferment


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## Will Thayer (Jul 24, 2016)

hyroot said:


> em1 has different microbes than labs. It's a proprietary blend. Making your own labs is fine. That's what I'm doing.


The unconventional farmer is one of my favorite sources of information. I found making my own Lactobacillus serum easy and enjoyable in a strange way. 
Hyroot do you have any idea what the Mammoth P folks are using in their product? Are they just selling Lab,BIM for an outrageous price? 

Cheers,
Will


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## hyroot (Jul 24, 2016)

Will Thayer said:


> The unconventional farmer is one of my favorite sources of information. I found making my own Lactobacillus serum easy and enjoyable in a strange way.
> Hyroot do you have any idea what the Mammoth P folks are using in their product? Are they just selling Lab,BIM for an outrageous price?
> 
> Cheers,
> Will


I don't know buts its frigging expensive. They were giving out samples in February. but I missed out.


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## DonBrennon (Jul 24, 2016)

Sure looks like an interesting product, saw it's effects in one of Gromau5's vids, another one of those products you just can't get in the UK. Not sure I would anyway, due to the price


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## Will Thayer (Jul 24, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I don't know buts its frigging expensive. They were giving out samples in February. but I missed out.


Yes I noticed they offered samples but I do not think they were keen to send them across the pond to us humble European growers. I am wary of most new products for the cannabis enthusiasts. There seems to be a long tradition of bringing a product to market specific to our hobby at inflated prices. I must say their product does peak my interest but at those prices it would have to trim and cure my harvest to justify the financial outlay.

Cheers,
Will

Edit* spelling/grammer


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## Rrog (Jul 24, 2016)

Bokashi is a very old technique 

I wonder if ancient cultures had to special order EM-1...


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## Will Thayer (Jul 24, 2016)

Rrog said:


> Bokashi is a very old technique
> 
> I wonder if ancient cultures had to special order EM-1...


Yeah, ancient cultures did not have the science we have today but learned everything by doing what produced the most and working with nature. I can not help but wonder that we are not so much smarter now than we think. I guess they were motivated by hunger more than profit. They viewed organic waste as a resource and understood that life is a recycling of material to build more life. "from green to gold, gold to brown the leaves they fall to feed the ground" We have been gifted an environment that provides everything we need to sustain ourselves if we just remember to stay within the boundaries of the circle of life. Everytime we as a species decide to leave the circle and promote the exploitation of these gifts we upset the natural balances. Well that is enough hippie soap box talk from me. I just seen a tree outside that looks like it needs a hug.

Cheers,
Will


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## Rrog (Jul 24, 2016)

On these forums the thought of Bokashi is quickly associated with EM-1. EM-1 is a super-strong bacterial mix I guess (?), yet it won't last in the environment once you get it home. It won't re-generate well. Why is that, I wonder?

Beneficial Indigenous Microbes


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## bizfactory (Jul 24, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I don't know buts its frigging expensive. They were giving out samples in February. but I missed out.


I messaged them on instagram and they sent me 12.5 oz. Just got it a week or two ago. Worth a shot.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jul 27, 2016)

30 gal smart pot worm bin today with panda film on top lifted up for pic.


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## Rrog (Jul 27, 2016)

Nice, CaptainCaveman


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jul 27, 2016)

I got the fabric pot idea from you, so thanks man!
My worms at the time were too wet in plastic tubs, so the smart pots really rescued my worm bins.
Now I make worm food and harvest 1\2 to 2\3 of a 5 gallon bucket every 2 weeks!


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## Rrog (Jul 27, 2016)

What a great story! What are you feeding them?


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jul 28, 2016)

My wife started making smoothies every morning so I save all the scraps from that in the freezer. When the freezer's full I thaw and run that and and my coffee grounds through the food processor. The scraps are mostly pineapple, banana, and ginger skins, along with waste from whatever other veggies we ate with meals.
Then I mix that in a 5 gallon bucket with a drill & mixer bit along with:
4 cups of perlite 
1T kelp meal
1T Azomite 
2T neem meal
1T Cascade Minerals (ground basalt)
1T green sand
1T gypsum
1T rock phosphate
1T diatomaceous earth
1T fish bone meal
1T crushed crab
1T Epsom salt
1T feather meal
2T crushed oyster she'll
1T glacial rock dust
3T alfalfa meal
1T langbeinite 
1T TM-7
1 T lime powder
chunk of coco big enough to soak up all the water so it's more like concrete than soup

Then I uncover the pot and shovel out castings equal to the fresh batch. I remove from the less active side. I turn the sides inward if they're really dry. Dump it into same hole I created & cover with a thin layer of castings. More or less don't disturb the other more active side.

Enjoy the best stuff you can topdress!


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## Rrog (Jul 29, 2016)

Awesome!!


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## bizfactory (Aug 1, 2016)

Anyone know what kinda creature this is? I thought thrips until I pulled out the microscope. They are running around under the mulch whenever I pull it back. I also noticed a decline in worms along with their arrival.


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## hyroot (Aug 1, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Anyone know what kinda creature this is? I thought thrips until I pulled out the microscope. They are running around under the mulch whenever I pull it back. I also noticed a decline in worms along with their arrival.
> 
> View attachment 3747157


Rove beetle. They're attracted to damp decaying matter. So dry out your soil I guess. I couldn't find anything on how to get rid of them.


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## bizfactory (Aug 1, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Rove beetle. They're attracted to damp decaying matter. So dry out your soil I guess. I couldn't find anything on how to get rid of them.


Good call. I guess they are nothing to worry about? This place is selling them!

http://www.arbico-organics.com/product/rove-beetle-atheta-coriaria-dalotia-coriaria/beneficial-insects-predators-parasites

Rove Beetles are a beneficial insect that feeds on the soil-dwelling larvae of fungus gnats, shore fly, moth fly and pupae of thrips and springtails. There is evidence that they will also provide some control for root mealybugs. Adults are a brown-black color, 3 - 4 mm long and winged. Larvae are thin, pale yellow and darken in the later larval stages. They are difficult to scout once released. It is recommended that you place flat rocks on the ground throughout the release area. The rocks provide a welcome shelter for the beneficial where you can lift the rocks to scout for them. They develop from egg to adult in about 21 days, passing through three larval instars prior to pupation and adulthood. Larval instars and adults are predatory. Winged adults have high dispersal and colonization rates and establish in various growing media.​


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## UnderCoverAgentOrange (Aug 4, 2016)

Hi, guys, great info..only on page 281..but wanted a check on a soil mix..

Per 15 gal of soil
6 TBS jamacian guano
6 TBS mexican guano
4 TBS blood meal
8 TBS rock phosphste
8 TBS steamed bone meal
8 TBS gypsum
16 TBS kelp
16 TBS alfalfa
8 TBS crab meal
8 TBS neem meal
4 TBS epsom salt
2 TBS TM-7

...add in a healthy amount of worm casting and perlite..might also snag some mushroom compost
thoughts? trying to whip my own together..going to let it cook for 30-60 days...should i add or take things out?


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## DonBrennon (Aug 4, 2016)

UnderCoverAgentOrange said:


> Hi, guys, great info..only on page 281..but wanted a check on a soil mix..
> 
> Per 15 gal of soil
> 6 TBS jamacian guano
> ...


Yeah..........drop the guano's, blood meal, and epsom salt, they're all water soluble and the guano's would be better used as a topdress or tea, the epsom salt, only use if you see a specific deficiency and foliar with it. Some would also say the bone meal too because of possible pathogens, if you can get fish bone meal, it's considered a much better source of phos.

The two ingredients I would definitley add are rock dust's and oystershell flour


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## GreenSanta (Aug 4, 2016)

the knowledge being shared on this thread can put to shame most master gardeners! thanks everyone for sharing. 

Ive got 3 more SIP builts on the go, the first I built (thanks to hyroot) is almost ready to harvest and so far it looks really amazing, I top dressed the soil with a bunch of freshly harvested comfrey leaves before I covered the soil with a garbage bag the same day I transplanted and flip to 12/12. 

Next time I ll try a top dress of shredded comfrey mixed with crushed oyster shell, organic hay, horse shit, and lots of worms. There was a lot of food/supersoil in the prototype run and I am really stoked to see the plants (2) have totally used it all up and are starting to fade nicely.


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## hyroot (Aug 4, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> the knowledge being shared on this thread can put to shame most master gardeners! thanks everyone for sharing.
> 
> Ive got 3 more SIP builts on the go, the first I built (thanks to hyroot) is almost ready to harvest and so far it looks really amazing, I top dressed the soil with a bunch of freshly harvested comfrey leaves before I covered the soil with a garbage bag the same day I transplanted and flip to 12/12.
> 
> Next time I ll try a top dress of shredded comfrey mixed with crushed oyster shell, organic hay, horse shit, and lots of worms. There was a lot of food/supersoil in the prototype run and I am really stoked to see the plants (2) have totally used it all up and are starting to fade nicely.


I'm trying something different too with one sip. You probably read about the issues I had with the 5 gals when the resi dried out or got too low. Several buds qould die off. Well 1 last 5 gal with mostly dead buds . I took out the air stones and added labs to the resi. Most of the dead buds started growing again. All new pistils and calyx.. it's a little behind. It's doing much better. Prior I came to the conclusion that you need at least a cubic foot of soil to run sips. That may depend on how you run them.

So anyway I'm running (1) 7 gal fabric pot / October pot design with no air stones. Just adding labs to the resi and see how that goes. Then another sip, same design. With air stones

I just can't decide what plants to put in the sips My strawberry fields are the largest. But they're from seed. Tjis is tge firts time growing them. The next biggest ones are alien rift. I've already been growing that. So I know gow.it gros already.


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## GreenSanta (Aug 4, 2016)

hyroot said:


> I'm trying something different too with one sip. You probably read about the issues I had with the 5 gals when the resi dried out or got too low. Several buds qould die off. Well 1 last 5 gal with mostly dead buds . I took out the air stones and added labs to the resi. Most of the dead buds started growing again. All new pistils and calyx.. it's a little behind. It's doing much better. Prior I came to the conclusion that you need at least a cubic foot of soil to run sips. That may depend on how you run them.
> 
> So anyway I'm running (1) 7 gal fabric pot / October pot design with no air stones. Just adding labs to the resi and see how that goes. Then another sip, same design. With air stones
> 
> I just can't decide what plants to put in the sips My strawberry fields are the largest. But they're from seed. Tjis is tge firts time growing them. The next biggest ones are alien rift. I've already been growing that. So I know gow.it gros already.


since I am on a bit of a strawberry hunt I would vouch for the strawberry fields... from seed they will kick ass even more in the SIP!!

knowing how the plant grows in your oldschool ways is a big plus.

I can't wait to run my pinacolada cut of spacepussy and my respect X chemo X ancient OG special cut in the SIPs, I have grown them many times over the last couple few years so I have an idea how they should be like, not so much the space pussy because it's a new cut (grown many many seeds though) but my respect chemo ancientOG I have grown many many times so I am really looking forward to see how it will do in SIPs, if I can save mom... she's outside at a friends house now, I wasnt going to grow her again until I harvested her recently, such special weed, I should try to keep her around, ... I have a lot of seeds I made with this mom and also I am growing a lot of seeds from the batch I found her...

Anyway, enough of that, lol. For me the 2 major benefits of SIP is that (I think/hope) it will reduce relative humidity in the Winter in my house, and also how it takes the guess work out when it comes to watering, keep the reservoir full, period. lol. Now I can focus on simply trying to create the best possible condition for soil food web, the only thing Id like to improve upon is to not use plastic bags as humidity dome rather maybe something like glacial rock dust or something that would create a similar effect, perhaps flat rocks?


----------



## UnderCoverAgentOrange (Aug 5, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Yeah..........drop the guano's, blood meal, and epsom salt, they're all water soluble and the guano's would be better used as a topdress or tea, the epsom salt, only use if you see a specific deficiency and foliar with it. Some would also say the bone meal too because of possible pathogens, if you can get fish bone meal, it's considered a much better source of phos.
> 
> The two ingredients I would definitely add are rock dust's and oystershell flour


thanks for the feedback, my bone meal doesn't say fish but its 3-15-0 should i still be adding in fish bone meal? and rock dusts..i have gypsum and rock phosphate...so you mean azomite and basalt etc? best place to pick those up..or at the hydro store?

thanks again


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## GreenSanta (Aug 5, 2016)

I don't mess with teas but some of you might be interested, I love Elaine anyway and I can listen to her all day.

http://livestream.com/adamdunnshow/events/6070654/videos/132023292?origin=event_published&mixpanel_id=14a7887175a6ca-0bf17dbbc-63161475-100200-14a7887175e1173&acc_id=17702213&medium=email


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## calliandra (Aug 6, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I don't mess with teas but some of you might be interested, I love Elaine anyway and I can listen to her all day.
> 
> http://livestream.com/adamdunnshow/events/6070654/videos/132023292?origin=event_published&mixpanel_id=14a7887175a6ca-0bf17dbbc-63161475-100200-14a7887175e1173&acc_id=17702213&medium=email


thanks for sharing! I love how everything she says just makes total _sense _


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## Rrog (Aug 6, 2016)

Lotsa folks hate her


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## VTMi'kmaq (Aug 6, 2016)

CaptainCAVEMAN said:


> My wife started making smoothies every morning so I save all the scraps from that in the freezer. When the freezer's full I thaw and run that and and my coffee grounds through the food processor. The scraps are mostly pineapple, banana, and ginger skins, along with waste from whatever other veggies we ate with meals.
> Then I mix that in a 5 gallon bucket with a drill & mixer bit along with:
> 4 cups of perlite
> 1T kelp meal
> ...


Obviously you have been paying attention.......i got goosebumps reading this post dude.


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## GreenSanta (Aug 6, 2016)

Rrog said:


> Lotsa folks hate her


 Because she speaks the truth! She is super direct and can be insulting, but the work she has done researching soil microbiology.... awesome!


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## VTMi'kmaq (Aug 6, 2016)

UnderCoverAgentOrange said:


> thanks for the feedback, my bone meal doesn't say fish but its 3-15-0 should i still be adding in fish bone meal? and rock dusts..i have gypsum and rock phosphate...so you mean azomite and basalt etc? best place to pick those up..or at the hydro store?
> 
> thanks again


I believe a fish hydrosylate will accomplish this for you.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Aug 6, 2016)

VTMi'kmaq said:


> Obviously you have been paying attention.......i got goosebumps reading this post dude.


Yes I have and it works very well.

I forgot to list:

1 cardboard egg carton
All my vaped weed
Any paper towels used in the process


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## whitebb2727 (Aug 6, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> the knowledge being shared on this thread can put to shame most master gardeners! thanks everyone for sharing.
> 
> Ive got 3 more SIP builts on the go, the first I built (thanks to hyroot) is almost ready to harvest and so far it looks really amazing, I top dressed the soil with a bunch of freshly harvested comfrey leaves before I covered the soil with a garbage bag the same day I transplanted and flip to 12/12.
> 
> Next time I ll try a top dress of shredded comfrey mixed with crushed oyster shell, organic hay, horse shit, and lots of worms. There was a lot of food/supersoil in the prototype run and I am really stoked to see the plants (2) have totally used it all up and are starting to fade nicely.


Watch the horse poop and make sure it didn't come from a place that used a wormer on the horses. It will kill your worms.


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## iHearAll (Aug 6, 2016)

E


Rrog said:


> On these forums the thought of Bokashi is quickly associated with EM-1. EM-1 is a super-strong bacterial mix I guess (?), yet it won't last in the environment once you get it home. It won't re-generate well. Why is that, I wonder?
> 
> Beneficial Indigenous Microbes


Em1 regenerates reaaaaaaaally efficiently. And EMextended, almost as well. I've made 50gal drums of bokashi with EMextended and it fermented for months, froze over for months, and in spring it came back with an explosion of sweet smelling white molds. In fact, i used the sumpy bottom of the drum and mixed it with peat moss, pailed it, sealed, refermented i, and its back to white mold beautiness. Its been about a year since i made the oeiginal drum size batch.


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## GreenSanta (Aug 6, 2016)

whitebb2727 said:


> Watch the horse poop and make sure it didn't come from a place that used a wormer on the horses. It will kill your worms.


not true


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## whitebb2727 (Aug 6, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> not true


It is true. With many variables. While older worm medicines have been shown safe that is only after it has time to sit before use. 7-10 days. If you use it before that you can kill your herd.

The studies that show it safe to use medicated manure in organic farming are for older medicines. Studies are not conclusive for newer medicines.

On the subject of antibiotics it has been shown in studies that 92-99% of the antibiotics will be broken down during composting.

For you to say not true is, well, untrue.

That the reason I said be careful if getting manure from stables and inquire about which wormer is used


Maybe you are ok with trace amounts of those chemicals. I am not and depending on what is used can in fact harm your herd.

I will say using it that fresh will cause other problems like ammonia volatilization.


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## whitebb2727 (Aug 6, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> not true


OK. True for properly aged manure. I would still ask what wormers and other meds ha e been used.


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## GreenSanta (Aug 6, 2016)

I said not true simply because I have many friends with horses, all de-worm, all have shit tons of red wigglers in their piles. I would prefer if they didnt use de-wormer, but I have a new rule for gardening, if worms like it, plants will...


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## MrKnotty (Aug 6, 2016)

Hello super smart peoples! So grateful for this thread, and a few others that I jumped into because of all this great knowledge here. I've been reading alot the past few days and am starting to incorporate aloe, coconut, and SST's into my garden. Before this season I purchased a very nice housemade soil from the local nursery consisting of the following amendments:

Certified Organic Dairy Manure
Aged Forest Humus
Promix HP
Coco Coir
Perlite 
Nitrogen Worm Castings
Dolomite
Oyster Shell Lime 
Nitrogen Bat Guano
Humic Acid
Mycorrhizae
Peat Moss.

So far to my understanding if I amend after the season with Pumice, EWC, more compost, glacial rock dust, and a mix of crap, shrimp, alfalfa, Neem, kelp, and fish bone meal, than my pots will be no till? I have quite a bit 100 gallon pots so I really would like to not mess this up. Plus I have time to learn as much as possible. Thanks fellow nerds! It's been hard to sleep these last few nights with this excitement from these pages.


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## Aloha Terps (Aug 7, 2016)

doing my first super soil / KNFno till / Aquaponics season.


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## Wetdog (Aug 7, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I said not true simply because I have many friends with horses, all de-worm, all have shit tons of red wigglers in their piles. I would prefer if they didnt use de-wormer, but I have a new rule for gardening, if worms like it, plants will...


For me. it isn't the de-wormers so much as herbicides.

A local grower, known to me, used aged horse manure from his fathers horses and was aware of all medications the horses received. What he wasn't aware of was the weed&feed his dad had treated the pasture with. Went through the horse Ok, composted for a year+, went into the worm bin with no ill effects to the worms. Castings used in mix and applied to garden plants and hell broke loose. Deformed dying plants with no apparent cause. MUCH back checking and research showed that the herbicide in the W&F survived the horse, composting, and the worm bin to do damage well over a year later. Just did not break down, or, break down very much in all that time and exposure.

What really got him was that the worms absolutely loved the manure and thrived in it. The plants, not so much.

Wet


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## calliandra (Aug 8, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> Because she speaks the truth! She is super direct and can be insulting, but the work she has done researching soil microbiology.... awesome!


Yeah that and gathering all the very specific research together to give us a complete picture AND a handle on how to put all that theory into practice


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Aug 8, 2016)

MrKnotty said:


> Hello super smart peoples! So grateful for this thread, and a few others that I jumped into because of all this great knowledge here. I've been reading alot the past few days and am starting to incorporate aloe, coconut, and SST's into my garden. Before this season I purchased a very nice housemade soil from the local nursery consisting of the following amendments:
> 
> Certified Organic Dairy Manure
> Aged Forest Humus
> ...


Yes.


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## VTMi'kmaq (Aug 8, 2016)

Aloha Terps said:


> doing my first super soil / KNFno till / Aquaponics season.


That was wayyyy kool


----------



## VTMi'kmaq (Aug 8, 2016)

Wetdog said:


> For me. it isn't the de-wormers so much as herbicides.
> 
> A local grower, known to me, used aged horse manure from his fathers horses and was aware of all medications the horses received. What he wasn't aware of was the weed&feed his dad had treated the pasture with. Went through the horse Ok, composted for a year+, went into the worm bin with no ill effects to the worms. Castings used in mix and applied to garden plants and hell broke loose. Deformed dying plants with no apparent cause. MUCH back checking and research showed that the herbicide in the W&F survived the horse, composting, and the worm bin to do damage well over a year later. Just did not break down, or, break down very much in all that time and exposure.
> 
> ...


This story just goes to show diligence uncovered truth


----------



## iHearAll (Aug 8, 2016)

Ar


MrKnotty said:


> Hello super smart peoples! So grateful for this thread, and a few others that I jumped into because of all this great knowledge here. I've been reading alot the past few days and am starting to incorporate aloe, coconut, and SST's into my garden. Before this season I purchased a very nice housemade soil from the local nursery consisting of the following amendments:
> 
> Certified Organic Dairy Manure
> Aged Forest Humus
> ...


You planting cannabis again in this container? Most people doing no till do monocrops, which is really bad for your soil. For instance, a few weeks ago a guy was.wondering why his roots had nodules. And that he grows in this same spot using the same recipe.over and over woth great success until now. What he had was a fungal infection from monocropping. What you do to prevent this and other problems from insects and such is to plant a legume every other, or every third plant ooooor to not follow up with another crop of cannabis but any other plant family. 


But your mix seems good. Just plant something you like to eat for a season. Put in a second set of beds if you really have to grow cannabis every season. No till is ok but shouldny be monocropped. The only you can monocrop is with hydro or using brand new soil. So really they didnt monocrop.

Hope this helps.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Aug 9, 2016)

Critical Sensi Star - ROLS


----------



## MrKnotty (Aug 10, 2016)

I am hoping someone can clear up a little confusion for me with the SSTs. I know that I discard the water after the initial soak. I am wondering if I save the water from the 2nd soak and use that water when I blend the sprouted seeds. Or do I simply dump the 2nd soaks water too and then blend with fresh water. I will be starting my first SST today with wheatgrass and I'm super excited to see the affects on my ladies. 



Thanks Friends!


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## hyroot (Aug 10, 2016)

MrKnotty said:


> I am hoping someone can clear up a little confusion for me with the SSTs. I know that I discard the water after the initial soak. I am wondering if I save the water from the 2nd soak and use that water when I blend the sprouted seeds. Or do I simply dump the 2nd soaks water too and then blend with fresh water. I will be starting my first SST today with wheatgrass and I'm super excited to see the affects on my ladies.
> 
> 
> 
> Thanks Friends!


Keep dumping. And blend with fresh water That water the seeds soak in becomes a growth inhibitor


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## MrKnotty (Aug 10, 2016)

hyroot said:


> Keep dumping. And blend with fresh water That water the seeds soak in becomes a growth inhibitor


That's what I thought, but just wanted to make sure. I didn't want to be wasting those amazing enzymes! This thread is the most amazing thing I've found on soil, and I've only read through 1/6 of it so far! Thanks so much to all you friendly peeps!!!


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## JayY2015 (Aug 10, 2016)

How much of this bio char do I add to my soil mix ?


----------



## Crab Pot (Aug 10, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> How much of this bio char do I add to my soil mix ?



Anywhere between five and ten percent of the soil mix.


----------



## JayY2015 (Aug 10, 2016)

Do I just use Lactic Acid Bacteria in flowering ? also I have a big batch of soil been mixed up for a few weeks can I use it right after adding the bio char or do I need to wait ?


----------



## Crab Pot (Aug 10, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> Do I just use Lactic Acid Bacteria in flowering ? also I have a big batch of soil been mixed up for a few weeks can I use it right after adding the bio char or do I need to wait ?



How do you plan to apply the lactic acid? 

Yeah you can use the soil immediately after you mix in the BioChar, just make sure it's charged.


----------



## JayY2015 (Aug 10, 2016)

I am just now ordering all the glass jugs and items to make it I guess as a liquid with molasses ? is it 3rd stage of recipe for all stages of plant growth and the 4th stage is just for flower ?


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## JayY2015 (Aug 10, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> How do you plan to apply the lactic acid?
> 
> Yeah you can use the soil immediately after you mix in the BioChar, just make sure it's charged.


I am sorry I am a total noob what do you mean by make sure its charged ?


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## Crab Pot (Aug 10, 2016)

@JayY2015

BioChar will pull nutrients out of your soil unless it's pre charged. When growers put it in their soil mix without pre charging it their plants yellow prematurely.

There are many ways to charge BioChar. I usually bubble 1/2 cup kelp meal and 1/2 a cup of neem seed meal per five gallons water, for a day and then use the tea water to soak the BioChar in for several days. Another way would be to make a compost tea and charge it with that or some use Fish Hydroxylase.

Where did you get your BioChar?


----------



## JayY2015 (Aug 10, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> BioChar will pull nutrients out of your soil unless it's pre charged. When growers put it in their soil mix without pre charging it their plants yellow prematurely.
> 
> There are many ways to charge BioChar. I usually bubble 1/2 cup kelp meal and 1/2 a cup of neem seed meal per five gallons water, for a day and then use the tea water to soak the BioChar in for several days. Another way would be to make a compost tea and charge it with that or some use Fish Hydroxylase.
> 
> Where did you get your BioChar?


I added the bio char directly to my soil mix after the first post hahahah what do I do now ?

Green Texan Organic Farms crushed bio char


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## Crab Pot (Aug 10, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I added the bio char directly to my soil mix after the first post hahahah what do I do now ?


I would add extra nutrients. What's your recipe?


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## JayY2015 (Aug 10, 2016)

5 gallon bucket Premier sphagnum peat moss
5 gallon bucket Worm Castings
5 gallon bucket perlite
1 cup kelp meal
1 cup neem meal
1 cup crusteacean meal

1 cup gypsum
1 cup oyster shell flour

6 cups of Rock dusts (basalt,glacial,granite)

I added some alfalfa meal a week or two after I mixed it.


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## Crab Pot (Aug 10, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> 5 gallon bucket Premier sphagnum peat moss
> 5 gallon bucket Worm Castings
> 5 gallon bucket perlite
> 1 cup kelp meal
> ...


Good choice on the recipe. Yeah your going to need to add a few more nutrients. What percentage of BioChar did you add?

And how much Alfalfa?


----------



## hyroot (Aug 10, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> Do I just use Lactic Acid Bacteria in flowering ? also I have a big batch of soil been mixed up for a few weeks can I use it right after adding the bio char or do I need to wait ?


Do you mean the lactobacillus / activated labs. You can use those in veg and flower. The flower power ferment is for flower only .


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## JayY2015 (Aug 10, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Good choice on the recipe. Yeah your going to need to add a few more nutrients. What percentage of BioChar did you add?
> 
> And how much Alfalfa?



I think its about 5% 1-1.5 gallon bio char to around 25 gallon soil mix


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## Crab Pot (Aug 10, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I think its about 5% 1-1.5 gallon bio char to around 25 gallon soil mix



Sounds good. How much alfalfa?


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## JayY2015 (Aug 11, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Sounds good. How much alfalfa?


I think 5-6 cups for the 25-30 gallon


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## Crab Pot (Aug 11, 2016)

Lol that's a bunch! That's basically Coots mix with Alfalfa added. Why so much? I would advice leaving the alfalfa out of the mix next time. You can always use some for a tea but the mix is well balanced without the alfalfa. Anyway, the alfalfa should offset the BioChar.


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## JayY2015 (Aug 11, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Lol that's a bunch! That's basically Coots mix with Alfalfa added. Why so much? I would advice leaving the alfalfa out of the mix next time. You can always use some for a tea but the mix is well balanced without the alfalfa. Anyway, the alfalfa should offset the BioChar.


I think I did 4 cups now that I think about it, I did the 1 cup per cubic feet it said on the first page of this post and I started with around 30 gallons.


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## COGrown (Aug 12, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> Do I just use Lactic Acid Bacteria in flowering ? also I have a big batch of soil been mixed up for a few weeks can I use it right after adding the bio char or do I need to wait ?


There's no bad time to use LAB in soil. My understanding is that they help with breaking down any of the organic material in your medium to make it available to the roots. So as long as you have organic amendments that provide P and K as they are broken down, it should help. 

I wouldn't spray buds with it, but I don't spray flowers with anything.


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## JayY2015 (Aug 16, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> @JayY2015
> 
> BioChar will pull nutrients out of your soil unless it's pre charged. When growers put it in their soil mix without pre charging it their plants yellow prematurely.
> 
> ...



Do you mean use an aerator ??


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## JayY2015 (Aug 18, 2016)

I can't tell if I have a nitrogen or cal mag deficiency its pretty mild right now what do you suggest for top dressing to take care of both.


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## GreenSanta (Aug 19, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I can't tell if I have a nitrogen or cal mag deficiency its pretty mild right now what do you suggest for top dressing to take care of both.


top dress with ''supersoil'' , your soil recipe, whatever it might be, mixed with vermicompost, throw a handful of worms too, then ride her out not matter what.


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## Rocket Soul (Aug 19, 2016)

Hi 

Im seeking advice on this organic premixed fertilizer:

http://migardener.com/store/3lb-trifecta/

www.youtube.com/watch?v=dM8SmWw3ugc

Story goes:
I live in spain and most products for building soil is unavailable to me, need to bring it over from the states. Sure, compost guano dolomite and that kinda stuff is around, along with soil mixes (not fox farm) but without crabmeal, fishmeal and few more of those its a bit limited.

This guy put together a fertilizer mix which looks allright, its npk 5-10-4 in directly accessible nutrients, 10-13-12 counting slow release. Half a cup per (tomato) plant when planting, can topfeed later in the season. Can anyone give me advice on building a soil with this? Soil mix, some compost, trifecta, maybe some composted nessles and bokashi ? Id rather follow a recepie but getting everything separately is so expensive with international delivery, getting just one bag with everything makes more sense to me. And i could use it on my normal garden. Any coments or advice welcome


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## GreenSanta (Aug 21, 2016)

Just a bit of an update on pests control via beneficial insects.
I was doing persimillis + californicus for spider mites control, it turns out californicus are so voracious they actually eat the persimillis and mess them all up. So I am going back to using fallacis + persimillis. 

If you are using beneficial insects, I recommend misting or wetting the bottom half or third of your plants, daily, I do it just after the lights come on. Since most beneficial insects need higher RH than your cannabis plants (I like to stay below 50% to stay clear of bud rot and powdery mildew, most beneficial insects prefer 60+%) This will help increase humidity at least once a day, you beneficial insects should survive longer, that's my theory and Ive been doing this for a while now. I try not to get the water up too high on the plants because I don't want the intense lighting to fry them buds, fan leaves. Even when the plants don't need water I just make sure to hose that bottom third, daily, for a few days to a week after application. Seems to help them survive longer.

Another thing I learned recently for thrips control is, instead of spending more money on the slow release cucumeris ''tea bags'', you want to buy the bulk tube (I buy 50000 adults at the time) scoop the bran under a mulch in your pots where the bran will stay moist and the bran will become ISCLAIMER dont quote me on this coze I am still not too sure what I am talking about, but the bran becomes a host for a specie of mites ( the tyrophagus, wiki it) that likes to feed on mold, I think the cucumeris feed on the tyrophagus and stay alive up to 6 weeks if you can keep that bran moist.

feel free to correct or improve any of this, but I m going back to persimillis + fallacis every 2 weeks and cucumeris bulk tube once a month, maybe once every 6 weeks if I stop seeing them.


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## JayY2015 (Aug 22, 2016)

I am not seeing root or veg growth comparable to my hempy buckets is there anything I can use to supercharge root growth ?


----------



## JayY2015 (Aug 22, 2016)

Sorry for all the postings lol. Is there a certain ppm range for the tea to charge the bio char


----------



## JayY2015 (Sep 5, 2016)

What can I add to the soil for a cal mag deficiency. I did a foliar feed and it helped but I do not want to foliar feed in flowering.


----------



## digitalqueso (Sep 6, 2016)

Hey all, first post here. Been reading this thread, phew is there a lot of good stuff here. But WOW 384 pages, I am only on page 40! I still have a lot to catch up on. But I decided to jump to the end and ask a quick question before I get to far ahead of myself.
I recently bought a yard of Empire Builder mix by sanctuary soils out here in CA. Heres a link to see their page if anyone's interested. http://sanctuarysoil.com/empire-builder/
The ingredients are as follows:
coco coir, sphagnum peat moss, composted forest product, worm castings, coco chips, lava rock, pumice, perlite, gypsum, langbeinite, sea bird and bat guano, fish bonemeal, feather meal, bonemeal, limestone, greensand, alfalfa meal, kelp meal, glacial rock dust, azomite, soybean meal, and rice bran.

Unfortunately after I bought it all kinds off shit hit the fan and I had to deal with losing a garden to fire ants. (Lost like 50 plants, still swallowing that pill). Anyway, while I was dealing with the ant issue I never made it around to using the Empire soil, and it dried up in the 110 degree central california heat. So fastforward 3 months. I have read the revs book, overcomplicated the shit out of organics, and then started reading some stuff from buildasoil.com specifically this article here http://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/9885098-why-tlo-dissecting-the-rev-mix-line-by-line. At the same time my buddy was turning me on to composted soil. And it got me rethinking my whole deal. So I was like, Eureka! I have this soil that is very heavily ammended thats just dry might as well bring it indoors, add some stuff and a month later use it for my notill indoor.

So to a half yard of soil I added:
15 cups of alfalfa meal
15 cups of oyster shell
15 cups of Down To Earth all purpose mix
About 5 cups of Rock Phosphate
About 10 cups of wiggle worm worm castings
5 gallons of perlite.

My plan was to wait a month, fill some 15 gals and plant down. Then I found this nice thread. And I realize now that I may have severely overdone it. I think I have tried to make a no till mix from super soil and from what I gather thats asking for trouble? Should I just scrap it all for outdoors and start fresh or give it a shot?
My plan so far from what I have read of this tread (up to page 40 - but who knows whats changed or improved in the 340+ pages after) is that I am going to get aloe powder, coconut water powder, TM-7, diastatic malt powder, some clover cover crop seed, and agsil. And follow the suggested ratios and usages as I have seen here.
Sorry for the long winded post. Thanks so much for all the info and time and love everyone!!


----------



## calliandra (Sep 6, 2016)

Hey digitalqueso, welcome to RIU!
I'm just beginning the living soil adventure myself, but my intuitive response to your situation would be to just let that overloaded soil sit for longer so it can settle?
Let's see what others say though! Cheers!


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## digitalqueso (Sep 6, 2016)

Thanks calliandra.

Thats kinda what I was thinking too. I have also considered cutting it in half with fresh compost and more perlite. Then letting the soil continue to compost. Couldn't hurt right? lol Sorry everyone for newbin it up. 

But I will wait for someone with more knowledge and experience than myself to give me their 2 cents.


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## nvhak49 (Sep 6, 2016)

Quick question can topsoil be used and be ok to use for no till? I've been using peat moss as my base but I'm wondering if top soil would work just as good, I can get it cheaper than peat.


----------



## elkamino (Sep 6, 2016)

nvhak49 said:


> Quick question can topsoil be used and be ok to use for no till? I've been using peat moss as my base but I'm wondering if top soil would work just as good, I can get it cheaper than peat.


What up fellow Alaskan! 

Top soil is a broad category. Typically its a combo of organic matter (peat?) plus sand/minerals/sm rocks, but also anything else small enough to fit through the screen. SOME top soils may work as a substitute for peat in no til, but without a test its hard to know exactly what's in it. That is if you're talking topsoil you get yourself outside. Bagged soil's ingredients should be known, listed on the bag or company's website.

If peat feels pricey, check AK Mill and Feed near Ship Cr. They've got decent prices on bales of peat from Sunshine, Pro-Mix and maybe others. Promix runs ~$50 for 3.8 bale, but some of the Sunshine bales run in the $20-range. Its in their warehouse, you have to ask for it at the register. If the folks in the retail store can't help, folks in the wholesale office across the street are far more knowledgable about products and soils in general.


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## nvhak49 (Sep 6, 2016)

elkamino said:


> What up fellow Alaskan!
> 
> Top soil is a broad category. Typically its a combo of organic matter (peat?) plus sand/minerals/sm rocks, but also anything else small enough to fit through the screen. SOME top soils may work as a substitute for peat in no til, but without a test its hard to know exactly what's in it. That is if you're talking topsoil you get yourself outside. Bagged soil's ingredients should be known, listed on the bag or company's website.
> 
> If peat feels pricey, check AK Mill and Feed near Ship Cr. They've got decent prices on bales of peat from Sunshine, Pro-Mix and maybe others. Promix runs ~$50 for 3.8 bale, but some of the Sunshine bales run in the $20-range. Its in their warehouse, you have to ask for it at the register. If the folks in the retail store can't help, folks in the wholesale office across the street are far more knowledgable about products and soils in general.


Yeah I've been getting peat from them, just wondering if top soil I get here locally from a place here in anchorage would be cheaper and possibly a better option specially come winter time when some stores don't carry much at all and grow shops charge up the ass for stuff lol.


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## elkamino (Sep 6, 2016)

nvhak49 said:


> Yeah I've been getting peat from them, just wondering if top soil I get here locally from a place here in anchorage would be cheaper and possibly a better option specially come winter time when some stores don't carry much at all and grow shops charge up the ass for stuff lol.


What's in it?


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## iHearAll (Sep 6, 2016)

Rocket Soul said:


> Hi
> 
> Im seeking advice on this organic premixed fertilizer:
> 
> ...


most of the stuff you need to fix a soil is foraged from outdoors and saved up in the kitchen. also planting legumes in a raised bed can help fix nitrogen into that spot of soil. you can then ammend with bokashi, ash, seaweed compost, bone meal, aerobic compost, that kind of stuff.


i like that you used the magic word "bokashi" already which tells me you know the heck to do lol. fermented kitchen garbage is my best friend. this is growing in FKG that i made into an aerobic compost and mixed 1:1 with a legume bed, forest flooring, vermicastings and amended with bone meal, bokashi, crushed clay, crushed quartz, BD500, and a bit of ash, and biochar. 

in a raised bed outdoors i dig a trench in the center of the bed and fill with fermented kitchen garbage, then i cover it with dirt and some weighted boards (to keep animals out) and wait for 2-3 weeks, then i till the bed thoroughly and plant in it. you can also dig a hole, bury the FKG, cover, wait 2-3 weeks and plant straight into it. works awesome with cannabis and even more awesome with fruit trees. you can get your body weight in papaya from a tree less than a year old if planted into 5gallons of FKG. bananas take 10-20 gallons. cannabis take 1g-2.5g-5g depending on the size and strain


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## CallmeTex (Sep 6, 2016)

digitalqueso said:


> Thanks calliandra.
> 
> Thats kinda what I was thinking too. I have also considered cutting it in half with fresh compost and more perlite. Then letting the soil continue to compost. Couldn't hurt right? lol Sorry everyone for newbin it up.
> 
> But I will wait for someone with more knowledge and experience than myself to give me their 2 cents.


Sounds like a really nice mix, consider cutting it with 20% Coco and make sure it stays moist. I would run it..


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## digitalqueso (Sep 6, 2016)

CallmeTex said:


> Sounds like a really nice mix, consider cutting it with 20% Coco and make sure it stays moist. I would run it..


Sweet! 

Thanks tex.


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## JayY2015 (Sep 6, 2016)

I have a slight mg deficiency I tested my soil ph and it was 6.2 do I need to add lime or something to get the ph up to stop the mg deficiency ?
I also need to know if adding ph up and or down to my water is safe for rols soil ?


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## kkt3 (Sep 6, 2016)

In an proper organic soil grow the ph should regulate itself. So it shouldn't be a concern.


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## JayY2015 (Sep 6, 2016)

kkt3 said:


> In an proper organic soil grow the ph should regulate itself. So it shouldn't be a concern.


 Well its not regulating lol I am having slight deficiency problems and have low ph what can I do other then hope it works out ?


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## iHearAll (Sep 7, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I have a slight mg deficiency I tested my soil ph and it was 6.2 do I need to add lime or something to get the ph up to stop the mg deficiency ?
> I also need to know if adding ph up and or down to my water is safe for rols soil ?


yea, you can water in a gypsum or lime tea if youd like but clean your container you brew the tea in afterwards. itll throw the pH of for the next few teas. try adding some epsom salt. ~~~1T per gallon and let it dissolve before watering in. then dont add any more until you see a mg deficiency since its ionic


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## CallmeTex (Sep 7, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I have a slight mg deficiency I tested my soil ph and it was 6.2 do I need to add lime or something to get the ph up to stop the mg deficiency ?
> I also need to know if adding ph up and or down to my water is safe for rols soil ?


I had a similar situation outdoors before when I didn't let my mix break down enough before planting. Top dressing with a couple tablespoons of garden lime should help raise the ph. I wouldn't recommend any ph up in the water though.


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## GreenSanta (Sep 7, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I have a slight mg deficiency I tested my soil ph and it was 6.2 do I need to add lime or something to get the ph up to stop the mg deficiency ?
> I also need to know if adding ph up and or down to my water is safe for rols soil ?


I never use a pH meter, it is what it is. Use mulch and worms, properly made compost should be neutral so creating habitat for worms as mulch will help with soil ph


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## malignant (Sep 7, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I never use a pH meter, it is what it is. Use mulch and worms, properly made compost should be neutral so creating habitat for worms as mulch will help with soil ph


I only use it once in a great while more as a check up on my organic material. Poop is poop.


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## JayY2015 (Sep 7, 2016)

CallmeTex said:


> I had a similar situation outdoors before when I didn't let my mix break down enough before planting. Top dressing with a couple tablespoons of garden lime should help raise the ph. I wouldn't recommend any ph up in the water though.


I use RO water and it is usually pretty low like 6 what does using ph up and down do to the soil ?Should I use tap water instead of ro ? I have some dolomite lime is it ok to use ?


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## CallmeTex (Sep 7, 2016)

JayY2015 said:


> I use RO water and it is usually pretty low like 6 what does using ph up and down do to the soil ?Should I use tap water instead of ro ? I have some dolomite lime is it ok to use ?


I like Green Santa's idea of using mulch and worms or just worm castings to balance the soil and help give them what they need. RO water is fine, as is 6 ph water. I'm discouraged from using tap water because of the numerous chem. I use alfalfa pellets as a mulch which are filled with good stuff. Dolomite lime is what you want, see if it works.


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## bizfactory (Sep 20, 2016)

What do you think guys? Mg deficiency? I've been doing foliars with light epsom salt with no real change for the better. I top dressed with ewc mixed with 1/4c BAS nutrient blend about 5 days ago in anticipation for flower.


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## CallmeTex (Sep 24, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> What do you think guys? Mg deficiency? I've been doing foliars with light epsom salt with no real change for the better. I top dressed with ewc mixed with 1/4c BAS nutrient blend about 5 days ago in anticipation for flower.
> 
> View attachment 3785263 View attachment 3785264


I'm not sure about this one? Are they still showing signs?


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## iHearAll (Sep 24, 2016)

looks like iron def. idk how that happens but i just remember a guidesheet showing iron def with the new growth coming out yellow.

or you've backed off the nitrogen? i guess yea cal mag would block out N. hmmm

im seeing something similar on my brw growth too. i was going to ignore it for a while and see if it comes back cuz i had just transplanted twice (first soil was too hot) pretty sure i just have transplant shock tho. the compost pile is hungry


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## bizfactory (Sep 24, 2016)

CallmeTex said:


> I'm not sure about this one? Are they still showing signs?





iHearAll said:


> looks like iron def. idk how that happens but i just remember a guidesheet showing iron def with the new growth coming out yellow.
> 
> or you've backed off the nitrogen? i guess yea cal mag would block out N. hmmm
> 
> im seeing something similar on my brw growth too. i was going to ignore it for a while and see if it comes back cuz i had just transplanted twice (first soil was too hot) pretty sure i just have transplant shock tho. the compost pile is hungry


It is definitely not getting worse...I think the top dress of the BAS craft blend, comfrey and ewc is turning them around. Good thing too because I flippped on Tuesday (so 4 days in). They seem to be growing fine but the new growth doesn't look perfect.


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## DonBrennon (Sep 25, 2016)

iHearAll said:


> looks like iron def. idk how that happens but i just remember a guidesheet showing iron def with the new growth coming out yellow.
> 
> or you've backed off the nitrogen? i guess yea cal mag would block out N. hmmm
> 
> im seeing something similar on my brw growth too. i was going to ignore it for a while and see if it comes back cuz i had just transplanted twice (first soil was too hot) pretty sure i just have transplant shock tho. the compost pile is hungry


Those were my thought's exactly.................then I thought, a tablespoon of bloodmeal per pot, topdressed before next watering should sort that right out. What do you reckon?

I know a lot of people don't like bloodmeal, but it does have it's uses in organics


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## iHearAll (Sep 25, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Those were my thought's exactly.................then I thought, a tablespoon of bloodmeal per pot, topdressed before next watering should sort that right out. What do you reckon?
> 
> I know a lot of people don't like bloodmeal, but it does have it's uses in organics


hellyea i forgot that blood meal has Fe!! i was scratching my head with the Fe source.good thinkin. yea im running out of blood meal. i use it in teas and my gallon finally ran out. 

edit: id just make tea every time but its really the same thing. there's only a slim chance the large particles would work their way into the root system. so its really just like a slow release tea but you could be saving the spent blood meal and mixing it in seeding soil.


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## GreenSanta (Sep 25, 2016)

does anyone have a lot of experience with growing with seaweed? I ve been getting great results using nothing but liquid (or powdered) seaweed for my vegging plants and also my flowering plants are looking super healthy since Ive started using once in a while. of course my pots are filled with other old amendments and mostly compost. my question is has anyone had negative effects from using too much in flowering? thanks


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## bizfactory (Sep 28, 2016)

Coconut and top dressing malted barley powder....redundant?


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## DonBrennon (Sep 29, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> does anyone have a lot of experience with growing with seaweed? I ve been getting great results using nothing but liquid (or powdered) seaweed for my vegging plants and also my flowering plants are looking super healthy since Ive started using once in a while. of course my pots are filled with other old amendments and mostly compost. my question is has anyone had negative effects from using too much in flowering? thanks


I think @DonTesla has been experimenting with high amounts of kelp in his mix with great results.


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## GreenSanta (Sep 29, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> I think @DonTesla has been experimenting with high amounts of kelp in his mix with great results.


thanks looking forward to hearing from @DonTesla


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## DonTesla (Sep 29, 2016)

Kelp is awesome stuff

What brand and form are u gonna rock


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## GreenSanta (Sep 29, 2016)

DonTesla said:


> Kelp is awesome stuff
> 
> What brand and form are u gonna rock


http://www.welcomeharvestfarm.com/p_description2.htm#solublekelp
that's the stuff Ive been using right now. it's powdered form, I always eyeball it, what I have noticed is everytime I thought I went overboard the next morning the plants look super ubber healthy almost bluer than green... also I have yet to actually over do it even on seedlings. Since then Ive been using it here and there in the flower room where I normally use nothing but tap water and I was starting to wonder if I could actually overdo it to the point that it might ruin the taste but so far so good. nothing but healthy plants!


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## DonTesla (Sep 29, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> http://www.welcomeharvestfarm.com/p_description2.htm#solublekelp
> that's the stuff Ive been using right now. it's powdered form, I always eyeball it, what I have noticed is everytime I thought I went overboard the next morning the plants look super ubber healthy almost bluer than green... also I have yet to actually over do it even on seedlings. Since then Ive been using it here and there in the flower room where I normally use nothing but tap water and I was starting to wonder if I could actually overdo it to the point that it might ruin the taste but so far so good. nothing but healthy plants!


I be down with WHF

Rock their kelp a lot myself, actually
Definitely something babies can handle more than other amendments

Do u know what percentage your at rn in your mix, roughly? 
Of total volume
..That's what I prefer as a measurement 
Once you start topdressing tho, it gets harder to measure
And harder to make it burn clean and ultra smooth
Not that you won't see great results meanwhile

It's fkn packed with great stuff

..what size pots are you flowering in? 
The smaller, the higher I might recommend 
(Harder to correct or weaken a big batch)
1.5% if doing over 20gal vs 2.5% total volume, if doing a 10 gal less, for example
Unsoaked, aka pre-expansion numbers shown

I measure _then_ soak then sprinkle, then _wait_.
No topdress or foliar after, unless cloning

Kelp my fav amendment to add last, other than aeration of course


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## GreenSanta (Sep 29, 2016)

hey how about this guys : http://www.alika-inc.com/product.asp?cat=1&Classid=3&Nclassid=6&i=3
coco discs ... when you are in a hurry, might be a great way to mulch your pots... sprinkle some dry amendments before placing a couple of those disks on top of a pot, voila!!! I gotta give this a try, such a clean yet effective mulch.


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## DonTesla (Sep 29, 2016)

Wbu, do you like to foliar as well, with the kelp?

.. the coco disc btw, is badass

Good looking out!


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## GreenSanta (Sep 29, 2016)

DonTesla said:


> I be down with WHF
> 
> Rock their kelp a lot myself, actually
> Definitely something babies can handle more than other amendments
> ...


I have a 2 or 3 gallons water jog, honestly, like I said, I eyeball, I just sprinkle some powder in there, add water and use it to water mostly vegging plants. My girls go from 1 gal to 7-10 gallons pot, mostly 10s. Also when I water with the seaweed (only once every 7-10 days really) I also grab the plants with my left hand the best I can so that I can poor the seaweed water onto the leader(s) and onto most of the plant... like a hilly billy foliar spray... works great!!!


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## DonTesla (Oct 1, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I have a 2 or 3 gallons water jog, honestly, like I said, I eyeball, I just sprinkle some powder in there, add water and use it to water mostly vegging plants. My girls go from 1 gal to 7-10 gallons pot, mostly 10s. Also when I water with the seaweed (only once every 7-10 days really) I also grab the plants with my left hand the best I can so that I can poor the seaweed water onto the leader(s) and onto most of the plant... like a hilly billy foliar spray... works great!!!



I think I have some organic soluble seaweed flour around here, maybe I will try that on one and consider incorporating that into the ol regime, especially this,round since my SIPs are still not up and running and I to be runnin de smaller monkeys once again

Ps. We should Neva grab de plants with our left hand, for in many cultures, the left is dedicated to wiping the bum, as toilet paper is foreign in many places, ahah
..Never know when u might get a job in Columbia, legal to grow 20 monsters there for personal consumption


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## smink13 (Oct 6, 2016)

What is everyone's source for cover crop? I like buildasoils, but he rapes in shipping and I believe, in cost as well. Thanks guys!


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## GreenSanta (Oct 8, 2016)

you can try the feed store in your area, they generally carry all that stuff. I love living mulch, in some contexts, but for indoor growing in pots, not so much... My personal preference for indoor in pots is mulch (comfrey, vermicompost, organic hay, whatever ... or all of them mixed together) Often time, I ll sprinkle a tablespoon or 2 of powdered organic soil amendments under the mulch, a handful of worms... That said, I am for the first time experimenting with growing bean plants for spider mites trap.


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## calliandra (Oct 10, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> I have a 2 or 3 gallons water jog, honestly, like I said, I eyeball, I just sprinkle some powder in there, add water and use it to water mostly vegging plants. My girls go from 1 gal to 7-10 gallons pot, mostly 10s. Also when I water with the seaweed (only once every 7-10 days really) I also grab the plants with my left hand the best I can so that I can poor the seaweed water onto the leader(s) and onto most of the plant... like a hilly billy foliar spray... works great!!!


A question regarding "powder"!

I finally managed to source some kelp (whew haha) - it's not really "powder" but granulated.
I think it'll be great for topdressings - but not sure how I should be handling it for watering and foliars.

Here's how it looks dry, also I just mixed a teaspoon into a glass of water to see how it handles.
 

My hunch is that it may be good to let the granules soak a while before watering them in?
Question is, how much, how long, especially when it comes to foliars where I'd be straining the granules out.

Watering into the soil isn't a problem, I'd just dump all of it in, so whatever goodies didn't get leached will still be available for breakdown later...


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## GreenSanta (Oct 10, 2016)

That looks nothing like mine, if I mix half a teaspoon of the stuff I have in that glass of water, the wate r would be nearly black and I dont think u could see through. Where did u get it from?


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## calliandra (Oct 10, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> That looks nothing like mine, if I mix half a teaspoon of the stuff I have in that glass of water, the wate r would be nearly black and I dont think u could see through. Where did u get it from?


From a German producer called Makana, this stuff is "officially" for feeding to horses. but it's just 100% Ascophyllum Nodosum (at least thats what the label says) chopped up.
Smells of slippery seaside boulders lol


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## DonBrennon (Oct 10, 2016)

calliandra said:


> A question regarding "powder"!
> 
> I finally managed to source some kelp (whew haha) - it's not really "powder" but granulated.
> I think it'll be great for topdressings - but not sure how I should be handling it for watering and foliars.
> ...


Here's a link to what 'Coot' does..........https://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/11759569-diy-instant-kelp-meal-tea-coots-hydrated-kelp-meal-trick

The kelp meal I get looks similar to that, but it is a little darker. If it is Ascophyllum Nodosum it should be good to use IMO and Horse feed supplies are much more strictly regulated than soil amendments here in the EU. Feeds MUST list ALL ingredients, try finding any ingredients on fertilisers over here............no chance, no even on the MSDS's


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## calliandra (Oct 10, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> Here's a link to what 'Coot' does..........https://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/11759569-diy-instant-kelp-meal-tea-coots-hydrated-kelp-meal-trick
> 
> The kelp meal I get looks similar to that, but it is a little darker. If it is Ascophyllum Nodosum it should be good to use IMO and Horse feed supplies are much more strictly regulated than soil amendments here in the EU. Feeds MUST list ALL ingredients, try finding any ingredients on fertilisers over here............no chance, no even on the MSDS's


Ah thank you soo much for ending my headscratching! 
This matches my current tendency to serve smoothies _perfectly_ too_!_
Muah!!


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## velvet_underground (Oct 11, 2016)

Hi! This will be my first grow in over a decade. I decided to go organic because well..... Who the hell wants to use bottled nutrients when you don't have to. I've read most of this thread (my head hurts) but i think i have a pretty decent handle on things. It's going to be a 3x3 tent with LEDs (cobs) grow. While a high yield would be nice it is far from my top priority as this is only for myself. Bud quality and taste is at the top of my list. Please tell me if i'm off base with anything.

I'll be using 5 gallon buckets (veg 3-4 weeks) and dumping and re-ammending the soil after each cycle and rotating with a fresh batch. I suppose that's more ROLS than 'no till'.

My soil will be 1:1:1 Peat/vermicompost/pumice

The amendments for my first go will be from the BuildASoil folks. I'll gather my own as i get a grow under my belt and learn. You can read all day but wont know shit until you actually do it.

I will basically mix the soil and amendments per instructions and moisten (not drench) the soil with a compost tea (1 cup of VC with some BS molasses bubbled a little over 24 hrs). I will let that cook for a month or so.

This leads to my first question. After the initial moistening with the compost tea do i keep the soil moist with plain water? or more compost tea? I'm assuming it'd be fine with regular water since the tea will be doing it's business from the get go..

My plan is to water my plants with just plain RO water for the most part (eventually get blumats) and supplement with a little aloe and enzyme tea here and there, nothing crazy. I also plan on using a vermicompost topdressing in each bucket. My goal is to keep things as simple as possible.

Earlier in the thread i saw the use of Bioag "Ful-Power" and "Pro-Tekt", I'm assuming this is not necessary, correct?

Of course I will look at the plant's for any type of deficiency and act according if a problem arises (teas, etc..)

Does this all sound correct? Thanks so much for such an informative thread.


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## bizfactory (Oct 11, 2016)

Living Soil + COBs + Blumats is my recipe for success, so great choices there 

After the initial tea, RO water should be fine to keep it moist. Inoculating the soil with microbes from the tea is the idea.

As for Ful-Power, many of us use it. Absolutely necessary? Nah. Do I think it's helped my plants? Yes. Did I do a side-by-side with and without? No, all anecdotal.


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## velvet_underground (Oct 11, 2016)

Thanks Biz.. I'm all for Ful-Power if it helps!  It would be applied per bottle instructions approx once a week?

Thanks for the nod to my choice of growing tools!


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## jj302030 (Oct 11, 2016)

can you do no till without the earth worms guys? 
maybe a dumb question but i have to ask


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## bizfactory (Oct 11, 2016)

velvet_underground said:


> Thanks Biz.. I'm all for Ful-Power if it helps!  It would be applied per bottle instructions approx once a week?
> 
> Thanks for the nod to my choice of growing tools!


Yeah the bottles instructions are good. I probably go on the lighter side so I can foliar and drench with the same batch.



jj302030 said:


> can you do no till without the earth worms guys?
> maybe a dumb question but i have to ask


Yes you can...but if you are using quality earthworm castings, you'll eventually end up with them anyways. They will help with nutrient availability, I don't know why you'd try to avoid them.


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## velvet_underground (Oct 11, 2016)

I've got another question if someone wouldn't mind answering.. I know 5 gallon pots aren't ideal for organic growing and bigger would be better but at least for now it is what i plan to use! That said, i understand i can't veg them for too given the size of the containers. Is 3 - 4 weeks veg reasonable when using 5 gallon pots with living soil?


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## GreenSanta (Oct 13, 2016)

velvet_underground said:


> I've got another question if someone wouldn't mind answering.. I know 5 gallon pots aren't ideal for organic growing and bigger would be better but at least for now it is what i plan to use! That said, i understand i can't veg them for too given the size of the containers. Is 3 - 4 weeks veg reasonable when using 5 gallon pots with living soil?


I wouldnt veg. 12/12 from seeds, you must transplant as seedlings though. Thats what I would do. The other thing is 5 gallon can be enough with the living soil but you will probably need to feed teas.


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## velvet_underground (Oct 14, 2016)

Hmmm.. thanks for the tip! Now you have me thinking that maybe 7 or 10 gallon containers might be the way to go since I'm only going to have 3 or 4 plants in a 3x3 space. Sure, I could use teas if need be but I'm looking for minimal fuss so it's looking like bigger is better. Thanks for the knowledge!


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## GreenSanta (Oct 14, 2016)

Yes buddy 4 x 10 gal pots will rock that space, I have grown a lot in a 3x3 space and I find u gotta do 1 giant pot, or 4 x 10 gal ( or7s, I like to use 10s, fill em 2/3 of the way up, gives me room for lots of mulch and or a future top dress around week 3 of flower if it looks like the plant is going to need it) or I have even squeezed 9 x 7 gal smart pot in that space. Right now though I have a SIP in my 3x3 tent and it's looking like it's going to yield awesome with not that much light. The SIP is looking to be not only the best yielding method but also the least amount of work. I'm on round number 2 in one of my SIP and the plant is looking great, I hope I can do 3 rounds before taking it apart and see what it looks like in the reservoir.


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## velvet_underground (Oct 14, 2016)

10 Gallon pots it is! Thanks guys.


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## velvet_underground (Oct 14, 2016)

A 10 gal. pot @ 2/3 would be less than a cubic foot of soil.. This is ok? I'm not taking into consideration the top dress. I'd imagine cooking up 4 cf of soil should be sufficient for 4 pots..


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## Crab Pot (Oct 14, 2016)

velvet_underground said:


> Hmmm.. thanks for the tip! Now you have me thinking that maybe 7 or 10 gallon containers might be the way to go since I'm only going to have 3 or 4 plants in a 3x3 space. Sure, I could use teas if need be but I'm looking for minimal fuss so it's looking like bigger is better. Thanks for the knowledge!


10 gallon pots are inadequate for no till IMO. I'm currently using 25 gallon Geopots and they work a million times better than 10 gallon containers. I couldn't no-till properly in 10's. I'm going to add a 200 gallon container very soon. I used to use 7's, 10's, 15's but there is no comparison. 

If I had a 36" tent I would go this route, a 65 gallon smart pot @ 32" in diameter. 

https://www.amazon.com/Smart-Pots-65-Gallon-Soft-Sided-Container/dp/B0055F5TBK


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## velvet_underground (Oct 14, 2016)

Thanks Crabby! The room i have is in no way conducive to be able to use a container od that size. Believe me, I'd love to.

As i mentioned, I'm not really worried so much about doing a 'no till' than i am using LOS. I plan to dump the post and re-ammend after every cycle.


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## Crab Pot (Oct 14, 2016)

No-till Organics 

'Soulmate' - Bodhi Seeds


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## elkamino (Oct 14, 2016)

velvet_underground said:


> Thanks Crabby! The room i have is in no way conducive to be able to use a container od that size. Believe me, I'd love to.
> 
> As i mentioned, I'm not really worried so much about doing a 'no till' than i am using LOS. I plan to dump the post and re-ammend after every cycle.


I do a similar thing and think you'll be fine with the 7 gals. Both my 7 gallon hard-sideds grow great bud in a similar setup as yours, although i run a bare bulb vert 600 and squeeze plants into the circle space available. 1-4 ozs per plant. 

I'm all organic and stoked about my soil and just reammend each run, lots of vermicompost and a few other things. And toss the rootball. My soil is about 10 runs old, morphed from Subcool's recipe to Coot's-ish. This past run all I added was water to my 7 gals. Well also aloe and AgSil 2 or 3x in the 10 or 11 week cycle. I got lots of ammendments and would've added more but they stayed happy so just water. I've been growing in some blend of organic super-type soil for 7 years and this was the first time I;ve ever not had to reammend... stoked about that.

The plants below grew in 7-gal nursery pots, in a many times reammended Coot's mix. 

Good luck!


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## velvet_underground (Oct 14, 2016)

Elkamino.. How long were you able to veg in your 7 gal. pots?


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## elkamino (Oct 14, 2016)

velvet_underground said:


> Elkamino.. How long were you able to veg in your 7 gal. pots?


Typically 7-10 days, although I don't keep notes.


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## Crab Pot (Oct 14, 2016)

Aloe Vera Tincture @1 tsp/gallon


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## GreenSanta (Oct 19, 2016)

here is the thing, I have 2 plants in one of my first SIP, I think I had too much food in there, huge buds massive yield, however, there is no fading whatsoever and I am afraid the sipdermites will get the best of them shortly if I dont harvest them, they are at day 62, I am just worried about the smoke being harsh, they are so lush green. Anyone have experience with this, should I try to run them as long as possible until they start fading? I am not that worried generally but there is fair bit of weed on there and I am trying to do the right thing. Thanks.


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## Vnsmkr (Oct 19, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> here is the thing, I have 2 plants in one of my first SIP, I think I had too much food in there, huge buds massive yield, however, there is no fading whatsoever and I am afraid the sipdermites will get the best of them shortly if I dont harvest them, they are at day 62, I am just worried about the smoke being harsh, they are so lush green. Anyone have experience with this, should I try to run them as long as possible until they start fading? I am not that worried generally but there is fair bit of weed on there and I am trying to do the right thing. Thanks.


The cure is what takes the harshness out of your flowers. At 62 days in flower, depending on how long it usually is?, should be plenty to not worry about them being green. I dont always see a fade on my plants depending on what it is


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## cindysid (Oct 19, 2016)

I think harshness has more to do with the cure than being green. I don't get much of a fade, but my smoke is smooth and sweet after a good cure.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 21, 2016)

Good to know, they are just so lush still, but they are ready enough. Need to start fresh. I m so done growing 2 plants in the same pot, unless clones...


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## calliandra (Oct 21, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> Good to know, they are just so lush still, but they are ready enough. Need to start fresh. I m so done growing 2 plants in the same pot, unless clones...


Ah I soo hear you, did that once too!


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## yungkodama (Oct 23, 2016)

I got some babies in some solos right now. In a nuttshell I just have 1 bag of FFOF and im trying to figure out which is the best way to introduce organic nutes to this soil. Its my first time ever getting into organic feeding but I want to dedicate my time to recycle my soil over cycles to get the microbes kicking ass. Ive been told many things about super soils and what not but im trying to get in the cheap way by slowly adding amendments to my soil. Right now im debating whether to get some worm castings or guano to add some N and maybe some K but as I normally over think so anyone care to help a guy out? Should I just top dress REALLY lightly? Or make a little water mix? Sorry for sounding like a noob to. Thank you!


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## calliandra (Oct 24, 2016)

yungkodama said:


> I got some babies in some solos right now. In a nuttshell I just have 1 bag of FFOF and im trying to figure out which is the best way to introduce organic nutes to this soil. Its my first time ever getting into organic feeding but I want to dedicate my time to recycle my soil over cycles to get the microbes kicking ass. Ive been told many things about super soils and what not but im trying to get in the cheap way by slowly adding amendments to my soil. Right now im debating whether to get some worm castings or guano to add some N and maybe some K but as I normally over think so anyone care to help a guy out? Should I just top dress REALLY lightly? Or make a little water mix? Sorry for sounding like a noob to. Thank you!


Hm well there's always more than one way to go 
This is roughly what I'd do:
I don't know the FFOF, but assuming it's a ready-to-go potting soil, I wouldn't amend with nutrients to start with, as it's loaded up anyways for a few weeks.
Worm castings yes! Start getting the biology going.
And then make aerated wormcast teas and keep adding microorganisms that way (maybe 2-3 times during the grow, and foliar it too, so the upper plant parts have good microbial protection).
Probably a topdressing half ways through the grow, and after that, you start reamending.


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Hm well there's always more than one way to go
> This is roughly what I'd do:
> I don't know the FFOF, but assuming it's a ready-to-go potting soil, I wouldn't amend with nutrients to start with, as it's loaded up anyways for a few weeks.
> Worm castings yes! Start getting the biology going.
> ...


Sounds pretty simple, maybe a little guano top dressing and some well balanced npk ratio aswell. To make teas all I need is a tote, pump and airstone correct? I need to make a garden outside so my neighbors wont be wondering what all this is for lol I have this one neughbor right next door who is a avid eexperienced hydroponic gardener but I dont know if he is 420 and wouldnt want to raise flags with water pumps untill they see plants outside my yard. Thats still yet to come. So can I just make a water and casting mix? Microbe activity wouldnt be as active but I dont mind aslong as its simple and puts me out the spot light for now!


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Hm well there's always more than one way to go
> This is roughly what I'd do:
> I don't know the FFOF, but assuming it's a ready-to-go potting soil, I wouldn't amend with nutrients to start with, as it's loaded up anyways for a few weeks.
> Worm castings yes! Start getting the biology going.
> ...


Really wss trying to veg for 2 weeks so maybe I just let the soil do its thing. Harvest and reammend the soil and keep the rootball in there and then add very little amenmdents so it wont burn future seedlings or smaller plants. Or make seperate soil bins has always been a option to


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## calliandra (Oct 24, 2016)

yungkodama said:


> Sounds pretty simple, maybe a little guano top dressing and some well balanced npk ratio aswell. To make teas all I need is a tote, pump and airstone correct? I need to make a garden outside so my neighbors wont be wondering what all this is for lol I have this one neughbor right next door who is a avid eexperienced hydroponic gardener but I dont know if he is 420 and wouldnt want to raise flags with water pumps untill they see plants outside my yard. Thats still yet to come. So can I just make a water and casting mix? Microbe activity wouldnt be as active but I dont mind aslong as its simple and puts me out the spot light for now!


Yeah, check on what guano you have though - AFAIK there are different kinds that have different compositions.
Yeah basically, check out Tim Wilson's info too microbeorganics.com


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## calliandra (Oct 24, 2016)

yungkodama said:


> Really wss trying to veg for 2 weeks so maybe I just let the soil do its thing. Harvest and reammend the soil and keep the rootball in there and then add very little amenmdents so it wont burn future seedlings or smaller plants. Or make seperate soil bins has always been a option to


Ah you've already started!
Ah then just make AACT and foliar & water with that a few times.
It will get things started


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Yeah, check on what guano you have though - AFAIK there are different kinds that have different compositions.
> Yeah basically, check out Tim Wilson's info too microbeorganics.com


Will do we have some nice local shop called eco grow and they are like a organic forum in a store they have alot of stuff. Natural korean farming ingredients and trace minerals and much more so I willigo and ask for some high N guano and plenty of castings for my big bag if soil and try to keep my main soil base at a well balanced npk mix and then add heavier N or P or K mixes depending on which stage im in


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## calliandra (Oct 24, 2016)

yungkodama said:


> Will do we have some nice local shop called eco grow and they are like a organic forum in a store they have alot of stuff. Natural korean farming ingredients and trace minerals and much more so I willigo and ask for some high N guano and plenty of castings for my big bag if soil and try to keep my main soil base at a well balanced npk mix and then add heavier N or P or K mixes depending on which stage im in


no not hi N. 
When you topdress she's be going into flower. She doesn't need hi N then.


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Ah you've already started!
> Ah then just make AACT and foliar & water with that a few times.
> It will get things started


I might aswell never really thought of that. I was planning on maybe top dressing with very little guano and then later on some P and K just to give it a boost. Maybe I dry up some household stuff and ash it up or mash it and give it to the babes when its time. Isue with making teas really is the noise lol dumb question but would a simple water and casting mix work out?


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

calliandra said:


> no not hi N.
> When you topdress she's be going into flower. She doesn't need hi N then.


Okay top dress then I see now. Whe I flip should I top dress or right when I see flowers pushing out? And foliar for now


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## calliandra (Oct 24, 2016)

yungkodama said:


> I might aswell never really thought of that. I was planning on maybe top dressing with very little guano and then later on some P and K just to give it a boost. Maybe I dry up some household stuff and ash it up or mash it and give it to the babes when its time. Isue with making teas really is the noise lol dumb question but would a simple water and casting mix work out?


The purpose of an aerated compost tea is to get the microorganisms to multiply and become very active. So they are going full speed when added to the soil and can jump in to serve the plant immediately.

Whereas if you "just" add the compost, especially if topdressing, the effect is slower.
Sure you can just make a compost extract too: you let water flow through the compost and catch the runoff. But that will only give you a few micros and mainly nutrients such as humic/fulvic acids (depending on the quality of your compost).

Yeah the noise is annoying. Been thinking of how it could be made quieter  But it's definitely worth the nerves haha

And yes, topdress like 2-3 days before you switch actually, so when the stretch sets in, the nutrients/micros are already there.


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

calliandra said:


> The purpose of an aerated compost tea is to get the microorganisms to multiply and become very active. So they are going full speed when added to the soil and can jump in to serve the plant immediately.
> 
> Whereas if you "just" add the compost, especially if topdressing, the effect is slower.
> Sure you can just make a compost extract too: you let water flow through the compost and catch the runoff. But that will only give you a few micros and mainly nutrients such as humic/fulvic acids (depending on the quality of your compost).
> ...


It really really sounds worth it but the noise outside would draw some ears and theres no reason why I should have one, might consider doing it inside but my fan already is loud lol but damn just might get into it. Spending the 40 or 50 total to make the tote and pump draws me back a bit since im a bit short so I might just take the drenching method and do a light drench and try to find a easy foliar recipe. I like the idea but I guess the universe wants me to take it slow this time


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## Crab Pot (Oct 24, 2016)

Elaine Ingram and Clackamas Coot have both recently stated that topdressing with quality compost adds significantly more biology to your soil than compost tea. I have an air lift brewer and no longer use it. If you want biology, make your own compost and mulch with organic straw (non-organic straw is often sprayed with round up to prevent weeds). Mulching is key! Malibu's Bu Blend is a high quality commercial compost.

Keep in mind that when top dressing amendments, it takes a couple of weeks for the raw amendments to completely break down and become plant available. It also takes a little practice learning to read your plants and knowing when and how much to top dress with. Very easy to get the soil out of balance by over top dressing. If you're going to top dress for flower, adding the amendments a week prior to flip usually works well. Mixing the amendments with a little compost or worm castings is even better.

I am a no-till grower, building my own soils, using homemade compost. The bigger the pots, the more biology. I can't emphasize the importance enough of large pots for soil biology and healthy plants. I'm in 25 gallon pots and will be going bigger in the future. They are actually much easier on my back then the 10 gallon pots I used to lug around because I don't have to move them at all with no- till. Mofo is starting his 20th cycle in the same no-till pot, it just keeps getting better. I top dress once, at the beginning of the cycle with two tablespoons each of Neem/Karanja seed meal and kelp meal per container. That's it! The key is to leave the rootball and chop up all the leftover leaves and stems, then top dress them back into the same pot.

Heres a great Mofo recipe:

1/3 peat moss
1/3 pumice
1/3 compost

Per cu/ft:

1/2 cup crab meal
1/2 cup neem seed or Karanja meal
1/2 cup Kelp meal

6 cups basalt
1/2 cup gypsum

1 cup malted barley (freshly ground)

8 cups BioChar (charged)

Edit: Another benefit to large no-till pots is pests. Pests are not usually a problem in no-till.


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

calliandra said:


> The purpose of an aerated compost tea is to get the microorganisms to multiply and become very active. So they are going full speed when added to the soil and can jump in to serve the plant immediately.
> 
> Whereas if you "just" add the compost, especially if topdressing, the effect is slower.
> Sure you can just make a compost extract too: you let water flow through the compost and catch the runoff. But that will only give you a few micros and mainly nutrients such as humic/fulvic acids (depending on the quality of your compost).
> ...





calliandra said:


> The purpose of an aerated compost tea is to get the microorganisms to multiply and become very active. So they are going full speed when added to the soil and can jump in to serve the plant immediately.
> 
> Whereas if you "just" add the compost, especially if topdressing, the effect is slower.
> Sure you can just make a compost extract too: you let water flow through the compost and catch the runoff. But that will only give you a few micros and mainly nutrients such as humic/fulvic acids (depending on the quality of your compost).
> ...


Sweet ill def do that ! Thank you for helping me and guiding me through this little part if the thread! You helped me alot


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Oct 24, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Elaine Ingram and Clackamas Coot have both recently stated that topdressing with quality compost adds significantly more biology to your soil than compost tea. I have an air lift brewer and no longer use it. If you want biology, make your own compost and mulch with organic straw (non-organic straw is often sprayed with round up to prevent weeds). Mulching is key! Malibu's Bu Blend is a high quality commercial compost.
> 
> Keep in mind that when top dressing amendments, it takes a couple of weeks for the raw amendments to completely break down and become plant available. It also takes a little practice learning to read your plants and knowing when and how much to top dress with. Very easy to get the soil out of balance by over top dressing. If you're going to top dress for flower, adding the amendments a week prior to flip usually works well. Mixing the amendments with a little compost or worm castings is even better.
> 
> ...


Great post man, i also only topdress.

Great looking buds too!


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Elaine Ingram and Clackamas Coot have both recently stated that topdressing with quality compost adds significantly more biology to your soil than compost tea. I have an air lift brewer and no longer use it. If you want biology, make your own compost and mulch with organic straw (non-organic straw is often sprayed with round up to prevent weeds). Mulching is key! Malibu's Bu Blend is a high quality commercial compost.
> 
> Keep in mind that when top dressing amendments, it takes a couple of weeks for the raw amendments to completely break down and become plant available. It also takes a little practice learning to read your plants and knowing when and how much to top dress with. Very easy to get the soil out of balance by over top dressing. If you're going to top dress for flower, adding the amendments a week prior to flip usually works well. Mixing the amendments with a little compost or worm castings is even better.
> 
> ...


You really broke it down for me lol Im going to need to divide the recipe as to the scale of my set up is just a 4 x 4 and what size pots would you use then? thanks for all the info you shot towards me!


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## Crab Pot (Oct 24, 2016)

yungkodama said:


> You really broke it down for me lol Im going to need to divide the recipe as to the scale of my set up is just a 4 x 4 and what size pots would you use then? thanks for all the info you shot towards me!


I would either use a 100 gallon (38" wide) GeoPot/Smart Pot or 4 -20 gallon containers for that sized tent.


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> I would either use a 100 gallon (38" wide) GeoPot/Smart Pot or 4 -20 gallon containers for that sized tent.


Damn.... would you ever try doing short veg? Problem there is im trying to do short veg and I have regular seeds came from a fem plant but yeah. Original plan was 3 week veg maybe 4 week and then flip. I do understand and see how a bigger pot would help but its a big obstacle to me atleast


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> I would either use a 100 gallon (38" wide) GeoPot/Smart Pot or 4 -20 gallon containers for that sized tent.


Btw your flower looks really great! I yearn to get somewhere near that. Not now ofcourse. But as the soil gets richer


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## Crab Pot (Oct 24, 2016)

yungkodama said:


> Damn.... would you ever try doing short veg? Problem there is im trying to do short veg and I have regular seeds came from a fem plant but yeah. Original plan was 3 week veg maybe 4 week and then flip. I do understand and see how a bigger pot would help but its a big obstacle to me atleast


I don't understand the problem?

I often will germinate, veg and sex seed plants in one gallon containers, in another room. That way, I can transplant into their final container, veg another week or two, then flip. 

They grow fast in large containers. As an experiment, I planted identical clones in 3 gallon and 25 gallon containers (same soil mix) to gauge their grow rates. The clone in the 25 gallon pot out grew the other clone by more than I could of ever imagined. It didn't look like the same plant, so much bigger and healthier.


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## yungkodama (Oct 24, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> I don't understand the problem?
> 
> I often will germinate, veg and sex seed plants in one gallon containers, in another room. That way, I can transplant into their final container, veg another week or two, then flip.
> 
> They grow fast in large containers. As an experiment, I planted identical clones in 3 gallon and 25 gallon containers (same soil mix) to gauge their grow rates. The clone in the 25 gallon pot out grew the other clone by more than I could of ever imagined. It didn't look like the same plant, so much bigger and healthier.


I want to give it a try on a grow sounds likea fun experiment. I might give it a try 2nd or 3rd grow maybe 2nd because it does sound interesting. Last year I had a OG kush in a 20 gal and I loved her she was big I wish I knew more about training and what not then she was nice, genetics not so much. Think I can take some clones and do maybe 6 in a 4 x 4 and try doing a mainlining grow or just say fuck it and throw in 10 to 12 clones and go about it. But a big giant pot sounds fun, throw some worms in there to shit lol


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## calliandra (Oct 25, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Elaine Ingram and Clackamas Coot have both recently stated that topdressing with quality compost adds significantly more biology to your soil than compost tea.


Ah I'd love to read up on that to get her full meaning! Do you remember where she said that?

I don't know Coots but have been studying with Ingham, and I would tend to understand it thus:

YES there is more biological *diversity *in compost than in a tea made of it.
But in situations where the biology isn't active enough to handle nutrient cycling (because non existent or damaged for whatever reason), a compost tea is a great booster, as it adds highly *active *organisms.

So it actually just depends on what the situation is and what you're trying to achieve in what time span
.
And _yes_, a fully living soil in a good sized no-till container (which by its mass will buffer influences that are damaging to the microbial herd) will not need that kind of activation, at least seldom enough that restocking via compost is enough


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## Crab Pot (Oct 25, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Ah I'd love to read up on that to get her full meaning! Do you remember where she said that?
> 
> I don't know Coots but have been studying with Ingham, and I would tend to understand it thus:
> 
> ...



Dr Ingram said that on Hash Church recently, probably two, three months ago. She also said that AACT is only beneficial in soil if the compost was of poor quality to start with, or as a foliar spray.

You don't know Clackamas Coot?! Really!! He's been at the forefront of the living soil, no-till movement for years. He introduced Neem , Karanja, Comfrey, Aloe and much, much more to the community. How about Mountain Organics, do you know of him?

Check this thread out. Read at least the first 20-30 pages. It, along with the original No-till thread changed my life and many others.


https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/no-till-gardening-revisited.1400505/

Follow Mountain Organics on IG. Review the old posts.



 


Quality compost and mulching are key!


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## whitebb2727 (Oct 25, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> does anyone have a lot of experience with growing with seaweed? I ve been getting great results using nothing but liquid (or powdered) seaweed for my vegging plants and also my flowering plants are looking super healthy since Ive started using once in a while. of course my pots are filled with other old amendments and mostly compost. my question is has anyone had negative effects from using too much in flowering? thanks


I add espoma sea kelp meal to my soil. Good stuff.


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## whitebb2727 (Oct 25, 2016)

velvet_underground said:


> I've got another question if someone wouldn't mind answering.. I know 5 gallon pots aren't ideal for organic growing and bigger would be better but at least for now it is what i plan to use! That said, i understand i can't veg them for too given the size of the containers. Is 3 - 4 weeks veg reasonable when using 5 gallon pots with living soil?


That will work fine. I use 5 gallon containers. Though I'm not exactly not till. I make a large batch of soil and rotate the soil. As I'm growing the previous soil is re amended.


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## Fastslappy (Oct 26, 2016)

Anyone link Coot's soil mix ?


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## bizfactory (Oct 26, 2016)

Fastslappy said:


> Anyone link Coot's soil mix ?


Pretty much this https://buildasoil.com/products/living-organic-soil


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## Fastslappy (Oct 26, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Pretty much this https://buildasoil.com/products/living-organic-soil


Thanx


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## greasemonkeymann (Oct 26, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> The key is to leave the rootball and chop up all the leftover leaves and stems, then top dress them back into the same pot.


exactly!
The Law Of The Return.
precisely why forest don't need nutrients, they rely on the detritus from the prior years grow.
This is why you WANT as much of your plant's leaves to go back into the soil, all of it.
cannabis is an annual plant, each yr they die, and the following yr's plants rely on that to give them the nutrients they want.
Beautiful plants as always my man


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## whitebb2727 (Oct 26, 2016)

greasemonkeymann said:


> exactly!
> The Law Of The Return.
> precisely why forest don't need nutrients, they rely on the detritus from the prior years grow.
> This is why you WANT as much of your plant's leaves to go back into the soil, all of it.
> ...


The same as fallen fruit feeds the tree. Someone on here elaborated on it with a theory that plants require and respond better because of this.


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## Magic M (Oct 27, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Dr Ingram said that on Hash Church recently, probably two, three months ago. She also said that AACT is only beneficial in soil if the compost was of poor quality to start with, or as a foliar spray.
> 
> You don't know Clackamas Coot?! Really!! He's been at the forefront of the living soil, no-till movement for years. He introduced NeemView attachment 3813812 , Karanja, Comfrey, Aloe and much, much more to the community. How about Mountain Organics, do you know of him?
> 
> ...


Yup those Guys changed EVERYTHING for me!!!


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## calliandra (Oct 28, 2016)

Crab Pot said:


> Dr Ingram said that on Hash Church recently, probably two, three months ago. She also said that AACT is only beneficial in soil if the compost was of poor quality to start with, or as a foliar spray.
> 
> You don't know Clackamas Coot?! Really!! He's been at the forefront of the living soil, no-till movement for years. He introduced NeemView attachment 3813812 , Karanja, Comfrey, Aloe and much, much more to the community. How about Mountain Organics, do you know of him?
> 
> ...


Ah yes I think I saw that interview, was it the one where the interviewer all of a sudden explains to her she's on a cannabis forum? lol So yeah, it was an interview that had to be understandable for everyone - Ingham has amazing condensation skills - she can shrink or expand her expertise to fit any context 
Thanks for the links too!


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## GreenSanta (Oct 28, 2016)

sorry cross posted... SIP: Miss Jack X Blue city diesel


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## elfo777 (Oct 29, 2016)

Shall I mix mycorrhizae with my supersoil when mixing everything? Or do I apply myco with waterings? I am getting ready to cook a supersoil new batch and sprayed a bit of mycrrhizae white dust into the soil hoping it inoculates the soil. Problem is, I don't know if what I did is useless and mycorrhizae only inoculate roots instead of soil.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 29, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> sorry cross posted... SIP: Miss Jack X Blue city dieselView attachment 3817152 View attachment 3817153


this strain was actually (Chemo X Respect X Ancient OG) X Blue City Diesel ... the MJ X BCD are all phenomenal as well... yeah anyway I dont know what the fuck happened a couple few months ago but I have noticed recently that some plants were miss labeled, today I harvested a plant tagged as more cowbell that actually smelled like a dragon fruit  What am I supposed to do with them seeds I made, call them ''Spacebomb X More Cowbell but more likely Dragon Fruit'' and ''Skylotus X More Cowbell but likely Dragon Fruit'' ...I have the words ''likely this'' or ''likely that'' on far too many crosses I made haha.

I know, who cares right? I ll post some fire buds in the coming months, so many new creations in the making.


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## GreenSanta (Oct 29, 2016)

elfo777 said:


> Shall I mix mycorrhizae with my supersoil when mixing everything? Or do I apply myco with waterings? I am getting ready to cook a supersoil new batch and sprayed a bit of mycrrhizae white dust into the soil hoping it inoculates the soil. Problem is, I don't know if what I did is useless and mycorrhizae only inoculate roots instead of soil.


simply sprinkle on the roots of your transplants. this is how it's done. I was wondering tonight if I can mix the powder with water to water pots that were never inoculated.? I assumed I could and did it. Like most thing organic, I could have or not have and the end results would be the same lol, strong lights and good environment will take you there.


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## elfo777 (Oct 30, 2016)

Ty santa =)


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## calliandra (Oct 30, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> simply sprinkle on the roots of your transplants. this is how it's done. I was wondering tonight if I can mix the powder with water to water pots that were never inoculated.? I assumed I could and did it. Like most thing organic, I could have or not have and the end results would be the same lol, strong lights and good environment will take you there.


Yeah the chances are just smaller that the spores end up near the roots - but there's still a chance!


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## Chronikool (Oct 31, 2016)

Hey everyone...long time. Personally...i gave up on my inoculationz as im tipping my soil into a mixer...reamending...and repotting. (Destroying fungal forestz) Figured my potz were too small for a effective mycor colonization to take place...

So size of your potz is probably pretty important...bigger then 5 gallon (18 litre) i think....


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## DesertGrow89 (Oct 31, 2016)

Just finished mixing up a fat tote full of peat moss, ewc, rabbit shit, homemade ewc, and a gallon of locally found mostly crushed lava rock dust. I also plan on adding glacial rock dusts, gypsum, oyster shell, kelp, crab and neem meal. All of my egg shells are going in te mix as well, for those of you who are using them in place of lime, what amounts are you adding like 1 Tbsp/Gal? Just spent about an hour separating worms from their bedding, go em in peat this time so it should be easier. They are just in a round 18 gal tote and I was thinking a laundry basket with holes in the side would be a sweet container if it were lined with metal mesh.. Airflow would be better.

A couple of questions when you start the first no till run and your fresh soil is mixed do you go from solo/nursery square to 1/2gal to 5/7 to 15/20 etc or do you just take the clone/seedling or seed and plant it directly in (hopefully) her final pot from the beginning?

Also it seems the general consensus is that we should be using a 15 gallon pot minimum? I'm currently doing my first no till but it doesn't have the necessary ammendments like rock dusts, neem seed and seems to have too much rice hulls (air) in the mix as well.
Check out these pots from rootmaker they have a mesh bottom that allows roots to grow into the ground and create non-circling root systems. $12.50 each for the 15 gals but it would be a once in a decade purchase assuming they don't break (hopefully they have good customer service).

http://rootmaker.com/retail/29

I've read to about page 100 and look forward to reading the rest, thank you to everyone who has made a meaningful contribution to the thread!


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## goodjoint (Nov 1, 2016)

Hello all!

I've been using the Clackamas Coots soil mix recipe for a couple years, but always in fabric pots and never in plastic containers or bins.
I had mold (powdery mildew/botrytis/bud rot) during the last couple weeks of flower last time and I am looking to do everything in my power to stop this from happening again.
At the time, I purchased and tried a massive $300, 50-pint dehumidifier and all it did was heat up the room like a mofo and it didn't remove any moisture! (Frigidaire FAD504DWD)

I am thinking that the fabric pots are contributing to the high humidity issues since they breathe from all directions...? Could this be true?

I'm pondering about choosing 18 gallon plastic totes to grow in this time, rather than 7.5 gallon smart pots. I know there will be more soil, but with a thick layer of mulch and plastic walls to the container, I'm thinking that it'll improve the high humidity issues. These 18 gallon containers would be my largest pots yet and I plan to run them true no-til style (I haven't actually re-used soil before - I make a new batch each time, but I want to change that this time...)

Also, I planning on using Blumats too, so I don't ever have water dripping from the pots and onto the floor.

Anyone else here have issues with powedery mildew or botrytis in ROLS? Do you think plastic pots will keep less moisture in the air?

Thank you for your help. This thread is such a great one!


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## DesertGrow89 (Nov 1, 2016)

goodjoint said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been using the Clackamas Coots soil mix recipe for a couple years, but always in fabric pots and never in plastic containers or bins.
> I had mold (powdery mildew/botrytis/bud rot) during the last couple weeks of flower last time and I am looking to do everything in my power to stop this from happening again.
> ...


Dehumidifiers do produce a lot of heat and are a PITA to use in tents, just send it back if it doesn't work. High humidity and PM are just consequences of a lack of adequate airflow/cold weather and dew, do you have an intake/exhaust fan in your room and plenty of fans to move air around? Were you removing excess runoff water below your pots? No I don't think plastic pots will lower the humidity in your room much, especially if you are increasing the size of your pots that will just be more water with potential to evaporate into the air.


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## GreenSanta (Nov 1, 2016)

goodjoint said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been using the Clackamas Coots soil mix recipe for a couple years, but always in fabric pots and never in plastic containers or bins.
> I had mold (powdery mildew/botrytis/bud rot) during the last couple weeks of flower last time and I am looking to do everything in my power to stop this from happening again.
> ...





DesertGrow89 said:


> Dehumidifiers do produce a lot of heat and are a PITA to use in tents, just send it back if it doesn't work. High humidity and PM are just consequences of a lack of adequate airflow/cold weather and dew, do you have an intake/exhaust fan in your room and plenty of fans to move air around? Were you removing excess runoff water below your pots? No I don't think plastic pots will lower the humidity in your room much, especially if you are increasing the size of your pots that will just be more water with potential to evaporate into the air.


SIP .


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## GreenSanta (Nov 1, 2016)

goodjoint said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been using the Clackamas Coots soil mix recipe for a couple years, but always in fabric pots and never in plastic containers or bins.
> I had mold (powdery mildew/botrytis/bud rot) during the last couple weeks of flower last time and I am looking to do everything in my power to stop this from happening again.
> ...


I run my dehums in the room I intake from and also in the room I exhaust in, I dont run dehumidifiers in the flower room nor the veg room.


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## DesertGrow89 (Nov 1, 2016)

So I called and visited a few stores today to purchase some amendments and mixed up 60 gallons of the good stuff but no one carried pumice. Do any of you know of a chain store/website that offers it for a reasonable price? Would prefer to purchase it locally but will order online if necessary.. Thanks!


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## Fastslappy (Nov 2, 2016)

DesertGrow89 said:


> So I called and visited a few stores today to purchase some amendments and mixed up 60 gallons of the good stuff but no one carried pumice. Do any of you know of a chain store/website that offers it for a reasonable price? Would prefer to purchase it locally but will order online if necessary.. Thanks!


feed & farm store sell "DryStall" 100% pumice mined pure no additives 40 lb bag goes for $12.oo around here .
used to keep horses from slipping on wet hard surfaces
most if not all Tack & Feed supplies have it 
1/4-3/8" screened


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## DesertGrow89 (Nov 2, 2016)

Fastslappy said:


> feed & farm store sell "DryStall" 100% pumice mined pure no additives 40 lb bag goes for $12.oo around here .
> used to keep horses from slipping on wet hard surfaces
> most if not all Tack & Feed supplies have it
> 1/4-3/8" screened


Lol. It's funny you say that because the stores were Wilco and two farm and feed stores. Found a store that carries turface for $21/50lbs are any no tillers out there using it? I know that it doesn't break down for years unlike perlite which turns into sand..

Thank You!


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## DesertGrow89 (Nov 3, 2016)

Dr. Greenthumb OG Kush about two weeks intwo flower, the plant pictured is a male, he's gonna run for a while and I plan on collecting some pollen. Cover crop seems to be keeping the leaves green, the two females I chopped the cc and top dressed with a couple of amendments, but they aren't transpiring as well as this one. Thinking I shouldn't have removed it but grow and learn.. Studies show that mulched soils absorb water two to four times better than bare soils (Plaster, Soil Science and Management)


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## Mohican (Nov 5, 2016)

Feed stores and farm store are the best!


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## NaturalFarmer (Nov 7, 2016)

Newbie on this site but I think I found the thread Ill be hanging out in.


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## Chronikool (Nov 7, 2016)

NaturalFarmer said:


> Newbie on this site but I think I found the thread Ill be hanging out in.


Welcome....Now get reading!


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## natureboygrower (Nov 7, 2016)

I made up a soil based on buildasoils recipe.1/3 compost,1/3 happy frog,1/3 chunky perlite.basalt,glacial dust,neem cake,kelp meal,crab shells,oyster flour.supplemented with only my ewc teas and top dressing. best grow up to date for me! nice yields and really nice tasting/burning buds.especially after curing.I messed up a bit and pulled the plants root ball and all.tried shaking off as much dirt back into the planter as possible.what should I add to break down over winter?I thought I'd add a little more compost and happy frog,would it hurt to add some of the dusts (basalt and rock dust)and wait on the kelp meal until spring?I know the kelp meal doesn't take as long to become beneficial but the dusts can takes months.any thoughts?ty


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## DesertGrow89 (Nov 7, 2016)

natureboygrower said:


> I made up a soil based on buildasoils recipe.1/3 compost,1/3 happy frog,1/3 chunky perlite.basalt,glacial dust,neem cake,kelp meal,crab shells,oyster flour.supplemented with only my ewc teas and top dressing. best grow up to date for me! nice yields and really nice tasting/burning buds.especially after curing.I messed up a bit and pulled the plants root ball and all.tried shaking off as much dirt back into the planter as possible.what should I add to break down over winter?I thought I'd add a little more compost and happy frog,would it hurt to add some of the dusts (basalt and rock dust)and wait on the kelp meal until spring?I know the kelp meal doesn't take as long to become beneficial but the dusts can takes months.any thoughts?ty


Top of the morning to you natureboy. This is what I have from notes on this thread:

Re-amend @
(1/8 cup, of each from the "food mix", and 1/2 cup glacial rock dust, or "mineral mix")

I wonder what happened to cann and headtreep and how their grows are doing..


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## elfo777 (Nov 7, 2016)

I had some thrips in this grow and I want to reuse my soil. It's not too bad, but I was wondering if it's bad to reuse it after having this kind of bugs.


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## NaturalFarmer (Nov 7, 2016)

elfo777 said:


> I had some thrips in this grow and I want to reuse my soil. It's not too bad, but I was wondering if it's bad to reuse it after having this kind of bugs.


I would get some nematodes in there if you can just to be safe.


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## elfo777 (Nov 8, 2016)

Thanks but I can't get nematodes here :I I heard about diatomaceous earth, would this do the trick?


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## elkamino (Nov 8, 2016)

elfo777 said:


> I had some thrips in this grow and I want to reuse my soil. It's not too bad, but I was wondering if it's bad to reuse it after having this kind of bugs.


How bad is the infestation? If its not out of control I've had thrips and have easily controlled them easily with neem oil.

That and more pest control options discussed here:
http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PDF/PESTNOTES/pnthrips.pdf


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## elfo777 (Nov 8, 2016)

elkamino said:


> How bad is the infestation? If its not out of control I've had thrips and have easily controlled them easily with neem oil.
> 
> That and more pest control options discussed here:
> http://ipm.ucanr.edu/PDF/PESTNOTES/pnthrips.pdf


Its not bad, the worst one is a small plant and it has only a few White spots. Im sure its not mites but a lot of my outdoor (no cannabis plants) have it too. I sprayed pyrethrin making sure I don't mist my buds


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## DonTesla (Nov 13, 2016)

elfo777 said:


> Thanks but I can't get nematodes here :I I heard about diatomaceous earth, would this do the trick?


Great stuff, loaded with bene minerals like Si iron etc
Stops a lot of bug reproduction cycles

Two inch layers, with optional sand layer 

Avoid dust and shoot for happy rocks or similar de rock product

Also, minute pirate bugs will do the trick

They also hate when you plant garlic at the base of the plant right around the stem, or use herbal sprays

@ACitizenofColorado got the recipe ?? He just went thru this via a friend

If you need help sourcing bugs let us know!

We gots international suppliers all over, bro.



elfo777 said:


> I had some thrips in this grow and I want to reuse my soil. It's not too bad, but I was wondering if it's bad to reuse it after having this kind of bugs.


Hey buddy
Just helped a friend save some soil
I would:

Inoculate with LAB
Plant garlic bulbs in the soil
Spray soil with an herbal tea that bugs hate
Get some frass (what country u in? Before we talk best brands)
Build a strong food web (DIY Ewc!! Fungal boosts too!)
Ensure all vitamins etc are in soil (aloe, coconut)
And put a top soil barrier down (coco disc, above post, etc)

They love blue and yellow, you can make traps knowing this
They thrive at 26-28 and are active over 16 celcius so u can use that to fuck wit em too

Humidity too

Now, any bug questions just hit me up bro!
ps
feel free to check us out and show us some love over on IG and at the Jah Earth Collective thread!! World first collective with the coveted gravy terp profile on lock


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## jrock420 (Nov 13, 2016)

I guess I found this thread finalley. Surprised as I had been told and still couldn't find it. I'm a technological t rex so that may be to blame. U the man don. This thread is tits.


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## GreenSanta (Nov 13, 2016)

jrock420 said:


> I guess I found this thread finalley. Surprised as I had been told and still couldn't find it. I'm a technological t rex so that may be to blame. U the man don. This thread is tits.


welcome to the dark side


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## Durzil (Nov 14, 2016)

goodjoint said:


> Hello all!
> 
> I've been using the Clackamas Coots soil mix recipe for a couple years, but always in fabric pots and never in plastic containers or bins.
> I had mold (powdery mildew/botrytis/bud rot) during the last couple weeks of flower last time and I am looking to do everything in my power to stop this from happening again.
> ...


My first dehumidifier put off lots of heat but put zero water into the bin and was defective. If it's not full in 24 hours it's not working in my experience so have them replace it. They do put off lots of heat but the bonus is it keeps the AC going during lights off for extra dehumidifying. The smart pots will up humidity but once you control that more I bet it helps.


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## elkamino (Nov 22, 2016)

Fascinating time lapse of vermicomposting for those into this kinda thing


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## unwine99 (Nov 22, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Fascinating time lapse of vermicomposting for those into this kinda thing


I love that fluffy spongy texture when they're done working it.


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## bizfactory (Nov 22, 2016)

fading out nicely!


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## calliandra (Nov 23, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Fascinating time lapse of vermicomposting for those into this kinda thing


Yeah cool innit!
I saw this happening in my now formerly no-till when I had to up-pot - I had a 4cm layer of quartz sand on my soil, and after 45 days it was getting nicely plowed into the soil by worms (and maybe also the growing action of the roots?)


Since I also saw that my lava rock had sunk to the bottom of the pot (over 2 grows), it got me wondering about aeration in no-till... and maybe treating it like any other amendment that gets topdressed... definitely still needs more thought tho haha


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## DonTesla (Nov 23, 2016)

elkamino said:


> Fascinating time lapse of vermicomposting for those into this kinda thing


Wow

Where did you get this?


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## elkamino (Nov 23, 2016)

DonTesla said:


> Wow
> 
> Where did you get this?


The interwebs!





Man I have nothing do to with that video, all props to those who do. I was just searching time-lapse grow vids on youtube and came across that one... and knew folks like yourself might just get off on it too!


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## GreenSanta (Nov 24, 2016)

elkamino said:


> The interwebs!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I like most in this vid is seeing how worms can actually break down wood very quickly when in the sawdust form. One year I thought using woodchips in my worm farm was one of the reason why the worms were not happy, now I find worms in woodchips piles and now I see this ... hmmm


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## GreenSanta (Nov 28, 2016)

this thread is dead! do we know everything already, no one has anything new to share? Jeff Lowenfels has a new book coming out, teaming with fungi. I dont think it will apply much to cannabis besides the mycorizae, but hey I just learned the guy is a stoner while listening to the adam dunn show, AWESOME. lol


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## calliandra (Nov 29, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> this thread is dead! do we know everything already, no one has anything new to share? Jeff Lowenfels has a new book coming out, teaming with fungi. I dont think it will apply much to cannabis besides the mycorizae, but hey I just learned the guy is a stoner while listening to the adam dunn show, AWESOME. lol


Ah that's cool! Why should it not apply to cannabis?
Really curious what he has to say about them, they're the hardest to get established well...!
edit: Oh! seems it's going to be _only _about mycos, not the saprophytes at all...


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## Aruanda (Nov 29, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Ah that's cool! Why should it not apply to cannabis?
> Really curious what he has to say about them, they're the hardest to get established well...!
> edit: Oh! seems it's going to be _only _about mycos, not the saprophytes at all...


I think the general consensus is that the Cannabis plant prefers principally a bacterial dominated soil. I'm sure the fungus does convey some benefit in probably some round about way to this annual plant. From what I also understand is that there is just one set of endomycorrhizal fungi that associate with the Cannabis plant (Glomus intraradices a.k.a. Rhizophagus irregularis). There is a good thread about it on RIU: The Great Mycorrhizae Myth





GreenSanta said:


> this thread is dead! do we know everything already, no one has anything new to share? Jeff Lowenfels has a new book coming out, teaming with fungi. I dont think it will apply much to cannabis besides the mycorizae, but hey I just learned the guy is a stoner while listening to the adam dunn show, AWESOME. lol



I listened to that podcast just the other week. Was interesting, and you're right, it was cool to find out he partakes in the sacred herb too! I've been reading through this thread now for a few weeks, at around pg. 200, lol. Will contribute some things when I work my way through the rest I think...


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## calliandra (Nov 29, 2016)

Aruanda said:


> I think the general consensus is that the Cannabis plant prefers principally a bacterial dominated soil. I'm sure the fungus does convey some benefit in probably some round about way to this annual plant. From what I also understand is that there is just one set of endomycorrhizal fungi that associate with the Cannabis plant (Glomus intraradices a.k.a. Rhizophagus irregularis). There is a good thread about it on RIU: The Great Mycorrhizae Myth


Yes, but in my understanding, "bacterial-dominant" doesn't mean "no fungi". In fact the bacterial:fungal should be just about 1:1 at the successional stage the more complex annuals grow at to be able to fully provide for them. So while we don't have to totally stress out about it, we _should _have beneficial fungi in our soils. And since I know that my fungal population is not well-rounded yet, so I'm always on the lookout for that aha moment that will help me resolve that 

And thanks! will definitely check out that thread too, I didn't know we already have such specifics for the mycorrhizal preferences of cannabis


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## Aruanda (Nov 29, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Yes, but in my understanding, "bacterial-dominant" doesn't mean "no fungi". In fact the bacterial:fungal should be just about 1:1 at the successional stage the more complex annuals grow at to be able to fully provide for them. So while we don't have to totally stress out about it, we _should _have beneficial fungi in our soils. And since I know that my fungal population is not well-rounded yet, so I'm always on the lookout for that aha moment that will help me resolve that
> 
> And thanks! will definitely check out that thread too, I didn't know we already have such specifics for the mycorrhizal preferences of cannabis


Yeah, it's a given. Bacteria dominant soil doesn't exclude the fact that there are still fungus present in the soil. My understanding would tend to agree also that Cannabis may prefer a equal ratio (1:1) bacteria to fungus.


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## calliandra (Nov 29, 2016)

Aruanda said:


> Yeah, it's a given. Bacteria dominant soil doesn't exclude the fact that there are still fungus present in the soil. My understanding would tend to agree also that Cannabis may prefer a equal ratio (1:1) bacteria to fungus.


Scanned this from "10 Steps to Gardening with Nature", by Carol Ann Rollins and Elaine Ingham. The book's not a recommend, a weird little thing that is. But it was worth getting for this, rather infantile, but clear, representation of soil populations in the different successional stages:

I put cannabis a bit to the right of the mid-successional group. If that is correct, we need fungi in our soils.

Oh and IMHO, that thread is highly hypothetical, since the OP is actually just interpreting non-pertinent research.
I read that whole heavy metals study a while back trying to do the same for some other question lol 
And using the Eucalyptus study to prove ectos in our myco mix will harm endo colonization? Ectos don't colonize on cannabis, so they don't even have the conditions to sprout and then do that invagination thing, the cunts lol
So the whole argument is moot 
No matter, Loewenfels to the rescue haha

But how did you come to the conclusion that Glomus intraradices is the ony endo that will colonize cannabis? Again, using non-pertinent research to make a point haha, but they used Glomus mossae in the heavymetals study  So I'm intrigued!


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## GreenSanta (Nov 29, 2016)

Aruanda said:


> Yeah, it's a given. Bacteria dominant soil doesn't exclude the fact that there are still fungus present in the soil. My understanding would tend to agree also that Cannabis may prefer a equal ratio (1:1) bacteria to fungus.


For now I am going to go with Jeff Lowensfel ... cannabis needs a bacterial dominant soil, not 1:1. BUT, it won't stop me from experimenting with various fungal mulch like ramial wood chips. I am already seeing good results. Takes me back to a thread I started a while back about what I called poly mulch where one would have different quadrants of mulch around the plant, some fungal dominant and some bacterial dominant. An abundance of worms would ensure the medium underneath stays bacterial dominant.. Anyway, it's not because the mulch is fungal dominant that the soil underneath will be. The fungal duff might create new opportunities.


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## sgarcata (Nov 30, 2016)

Hi all... I'm trying to transition from "organic" to ROLS. I have pond lined beds with clay rocks under the soil (separated by landscape cloth) and ready to start my 3rd run. I'm reading through these posts newest first. Sorry, but can someone please tell me what SIP stands for?
Thank you.


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## sgarcata (Nov 30, 2016)

bizfactory said:


> Yes you can...but if you are using quality earthworm castings, you'll eventually end up with them anyways. They will help with nutrient availability, I don't know why you'd try to avoid them.


Is that regular earth worms or red wigglers?


----------



## calliandra (Nov 30, 2016)

sgarcata said:


> Hi all... I'm trying to transition from "organic" to ROLS. I have pond lined beds with clay rocks under the soil (separated by landscape cloth) and ready to start my 3rd run. I'm reading through these posts newest first. Sorry, but can someone please tell me what SIP stands for?
> Thank you.


SIP= Sub-Irrigated Planter



sgarcata said:


> Is that regular earth worms or red wigglers?


I have both. The wigglers are from my wormbin, the regulars I imported from the garden on purpose.


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## Aruanda (Nov 30, 2016)

Sorry @calliandra , I meant the family Glomus, not sure which specific species only work with cannabis. I heard from another group that only 2 species from the family Glomus are symbiotic with cannabis.

Yes for me that thread shows that hemp grown with mycorrhizae could be beneficial in a remediation of heavy metal contamination in soils. I think further studies need to be conducted with cannabis specifically. It would be interesting to know more about the relationship dynamic of cannabis roots and mycorrhizae in a soil mix with higher P levels (higher than 30ppm which would probably be so in the types of soil mixes people are using). I thought the same thing about ecto, would it even interfere with endo-mycorrhizae inoculating the roots of cannabis since the ecto wouldn't naturally inoculate the roots? Is it a waste of money to buy a broad spectrum myco mix to use with cannabis if only the endo species will inoculate? Would you want some diversity if you were also planting cover crops so they too benefit from the myco? Etc.


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## sgarcata (Nov 30, 2016)

calliandra said:


> SIP= Sub-Irrigated Planter
> 
> 
> I have both. The wigglers are from my wormbin, the regulars I imported from the garden on purpose.


Thanks for getting back so quickly, calliandra. I have kept red wigglers for 6 years or so... I had great ambitions for their production, but I still haven't been able to separate them from their bedding/castings very productively so they are mainly "pets" now. I'm just now discovering the idea of letting them live out their years eating, pooping and loving in my indoor beds. Now I'm wondering what the heck do they eat until the ROLS system gets into gear and they have some rotting mj leaves to munch on? They're used to fruit and veggies from the inside kitchen. I thought of blending in up and pouring the smoothie over the soil in between the plants, but that seem pretty wild so I want to hear from others first.

Also quite a colony of soil gnats has built up over the years in the bin. There aren't many now due to the near frost temps at night now, but I'm sure there are eggs galore in the worm bin "soil". 

I control the gnats in my indoor beds now by letting the top of the soil dry out and keeping my air tubes covered with nylons. Seems like I won't be able to do the former with this new approach so the "living" part of ROLS happens. From what little I know about earthworms feeding isn't a problem, but I don't really want worms of any type crawling all over my rooms searching for a viable environment as a friend reported to me he did. I'm sure there is a link somewhere, but I haven't come across it yet.


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 2, 2016)

sgarcata said:


> Thanks for getting back so quickly, calliandra. I have kept red wigglers for 6 years or so... I had great ambitions for their production, but I still haven't been able to separate them from their bedding/castings very productively so they are mainly "pets" now. I'm just now discovering the idea of letting them live out their years eating, pooping and loving in my indoor beds. Now I'm wondering what the heck do they eat until the ROLS system gets into gear and they have some rotting mj leaves to munch on? They're used to fruit and veggies from the inside kitchen. I thought of blending in up and pouring the smoothie over the soil in between the plants, but that seem pretty wild so I want to hear from others first.
> 
> Also quite a colony of soil gnats has built up over the years in the bin. There aren't many now due to the near frost temps at night now, but I'm sure there are eggs galore in the worm bin "soil".
> 
> I control the gnats in my indoor beds now by letting the top of the soil dry out and keeping my air tubes covered with nylons. Seems like I won't be able to do the former with this new approach so the "living" part of ROLS happens. From what little I know about earthworms feeding isn't a problem, but I don't really want worms of any type crawling all over my rooms searching for a viable environment as a friend reported to me he did. I'm sure there is a link somewhere, but I haven't come across it yet.


Can Try feeding them hay or letting them refine their own castings 

For leaves I dry them then crumble them if bunny doesn't get them first, lol

As for separating, the best thing that worked for me was the wood bins and having a layer with hardware mesh on it. All the casting jus fell thru.

Now when I harvest I just put worms and castings together, since the worms just keep multiplying


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## calliandra (Dec 4, 2016)

Aruanda said:


> Sorry @calliandra , I meant the family Glomus, not sure which specific species only work with cannabis. I heard from another group that only 2 species from the family Glomus are symbiotic with cannabis.


Ah ok, thanks for clarifying! 



Aruanda said:


> thought the same thing about ecto, would it even interfere with endo-mycorrhizae inoculating the roots of cannabis since the ecto wouldn't naturally inoculate the roots? Is it a waste of money to buy a broad spectrum myco mix to use with cannabis if only the endo species will inoculate? Would you want some diversity if you were also planting cover crops so they too benefit from the myco? Etc.


Lots of interesting questions!

The way I understand the soil food web at the moment, is that from a maximum diversity of microbes, it will always be different species that are active, depending on environmental factors - aeration, humidity, temperatures, soil composition, the exudates being put out by the plant, pH being influenced by the activity of other microbes.....
And even the harmful microbes are in there, along with the beneficial ones, but will not gain ground as long as conditions allow the aerobes to remain dominant in sheer numbers.
Out in nature, no one is sorting microbes with a nano-pince, like "oh look! here's an ectomycorrhizal spore, we don't need it here, so lets take it out and put it over with the conifers" haha - Instead, everything is in the soil, potentially, and ready to jump in whenever they get the chance to thrive.

So extrapolating from that, yeah on the one hand it shouldn't be a problem to have all sorts of mycorrhizal spores in the soil, since only those will thrive for whom the conditions are favorable.
On the other, having ectos in a myco mix for cannabis IS useless, also to any cover crops that may want to grow with it. But I'd still go for a mix that has a variety of endo's, just on the basis of following the principle of maximum diversity. 

Sounds really sensible to me, but I may be missing something


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## calliandra (Dec 4, 2016)

Speaking of mushrooms, has anyone had these sprout - and were you able to identify them? (I haven't been :/ )
 
seems they're sprouting separately (as opposed to branching out from each other), even though in clusters
 
and the underside of their caps


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## DonBrennon (Dec 4, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Speaking of mushrooms, has anyone had these sprout - and were you able to identify them? (I haven't been :/ )
> View attachment 3845308
> seems they're sprouting separately (as opposed to branching out from each other), even though in clusters
> View attachment 3845309
> ...


.............and you was telling us that your soil was devoid of fungi.............LOL


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## calliandra (Dec 4, 2016)

DonBrennon said:


> .............and you was telling us that your soil was devoid of fungi.............LOL


haha and it IS 
These are in a chili pot, which was sat outdoors in a garden bed all summer.
And what I forgot to say: they smell delicious! Would be great if they were edible 

But you got me onto something there!
When that chili is done living, I can innoculate my no-tills with its soil to get more of the shroomy environment in, nevermind if that particular one is edible or not 
Cheers!


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## DesertGrow89 (Dec 4, 2016)

sgarcata said:


> Hi all... I'm trying to transition from "organic" to ROLS. I have pond lined beds with clay rocks under the soil (separated by landscape cloth) and ready to start my 3rd run. I'm reading through these posts newest first. Sorry, but can someone please tell me what SIP stands for?
> Thank you.


Why do you have rocks under the soil?


----------



## calliandra (Dec 5, 2016)

sgarcata said:


> Thanks for getting back so quickly, calliandra. I have kept red wigglers for 6 years or so... I had great ambitions for their production, but I still haven't been able to separate them from their bedding/castings very productively so they are mainly "pets" now. I'm just now discovering the idea of letting them live out their years eating, pooping and loving in my indoor beds. Now I'm wondering what the heck do they eat until the ROLS system gets into gear and they have some rotting mj leaves to munch on? They're used to fruit and veggies from the inside kitchen. I thought of blending in up and pouring the smoothie over the soil in between the plants, but that seem pretty wild so I want to hear from others first.
> 
> Also quite a colony of soil gnats has built up over the years in the bin. There aren't many now due to the near frost temps at night now, but I'm sure there are eggs galore in the worm bin "soil".
> 
> I control the gnats in my indoor beds now by letting the top of the soil dry out and keeping my air tubes covered with nylons. Seems like I won't be able to do the former with this new approach so the "living" part of ROLS happens. From what little I know about earthworms feeding isn't a problem, but I don't really want worms of any type crawling all over my rooms searching for a viable environment as a friend reported to me he did. I'm sure there is a link somewhere, but I haven't come across it yet.


Ah what you describe there is a chcken-and-egg-dilemma I've been in too 
Mulching and keeping that interface to the soil super-active with microbes is the _perfect _place for fungus gnats haha
So my reasoning was to cut down the fungus gnats first, and then move back to mulching and all that.

I covered my soil with 4cm quartz sand, creating a pretty effective barrier to interrupt the egg-laying cycle of the gnats: the flies not having access to nice and humid conditions to lay their eggs in, and larvae-turned-flies have such a hard time crawling out from beneath the sand they die in the attempt, or shortly after.
BUT that was all I did. And it seems there were still plenty of eggs in the soil anyways, because when I removed the sand layer, the gnats were back.
What I _should've _done was to add BT and SF mnematodes to the soil under that sand: it had perfectly moist conditions (the worms were right up there eating too!), better and more constant than my previous attempts to introduce nematodes using just mulch as cover. So that's going to be my next move.

What I did do to keep my plant happy whilst having that sand on, and given my microherd wasn't looking spectacular, was _exactly _what you are pondering: feeding living matter smoothies.

I think it worked pretty well, seeing the Sour Stomper auto I was growing came out twice the size it usually gets and yielded accordingly haha


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## GreenSanta (Dec 6, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Ah what you describe there is a chcken-and-egg-dilemma I've been in too
> Mulching and keeping that interface to the soil super-active with microbes is the _perfect _place for fungus gnats haha
> So my reasoning was to cut down the fungus gnats first, and then move back to mulching and all that.
> 
> ...


buy nematodes for gnats, I did that a few years ago, I have never had to deal with them again. You see, If you re-use your soil and use good home made compost it should have nematodes in it and you should never have to fight them again. You might have to do a double application of nematodes, but I never had to, not for gnats. Also, know where they come from, you want freshly harvested nematodes from a reputable company, unless you have a microscope, you dont know if they are still alive and well! You will know if they were alive though because you apply that shit once and they are all gone!! double application is still a good idea if you are that worried but honestly gnats are the easiest pest! One of the worst place to buy nematodes is at the garden centers, nematodes sit in the fridge far too long, go right to the source. 5 million nematodes should cover a nice size garden, veg and flower.

The way they work is really mind blowing too, as long as a few nematodes reach target pest and kaboom they multiply exponentially. nematodes dont actually eat the gnats or anything it's actually the fungus gnats larvae that are eating the nematodes, there is a nematode-bacterium symbiosis that exist and its the bacteria that the nematode takes along for the ride that does the killing, really cool stuff. I dont know how to explain like a nematologist would but nematodes are a fascinating creature and part of evolution.


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## bizfactory (Dec 6, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> buy nematodes for gnats, I did that a few years ago, I have never had to deal with them again. You see, If you re-use your soil and use good home made compost it should have nematodes in it and you should never have to fight them again. You might have to do a double application of nematodes, but I never had to, not for gnats. Also, know where they come from, you want freshly harvested nematodes from a reputable company, unless you have a microscope, you dont know if they are still alive and well! You will know if they were alive though because you apply that shit once and they are all gone!! double application is still a good idea if you are that worried but honestly gnats are the easiest pest! One of the worst place to buy nematodes is at the garden centers, nematodes sit in the fridge far too long, go right to the source. 5 million nematodes should cover a nice size garden, veg and flower.
> 
> The way they work is really mind blowing too, as long as a few nematodes reach target pest and kaboom they multiply exponentially. nematodes dont actually eat the gnats or anything it's actually the fungus gnats larvae that are eating the nematodes, there is a nematode-bacterium symbiosis that exist and its the bacteria that the nematode takes along for the ride that does the killing, really cool stuff. I dont know how to explain like a nematologist would but nematodes are a fascinating creature and part of evolution.


I've been fighting them on and off for over a year. I also had another buddy tell me the same thing in regards to nematodes and gnats, swore by them. Do you have any suggestions on species or good sources?


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## platt (Dec 7, 2016)

If its a serious source they will mention you the date of delivery.


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## calliandra (Dec 7, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> buy nematodes for gnats, I did that a few years ago, I have never had to deal with them again. You see, If you re-use your soil and use good home made compost it should have nematodes in it and you should never have to fight them again. You might have to do a double application of nematodes, but I never had to, not for gnats. Also, know where they come from, you want freshly harvested nematodes from a reputable company, unless you have a microscope, you dont know if they are still alive and well! You will know if they were alive though because you apply that shit once and they are all gone!! double application is still a good idea if you are that worried but honestly gnats are the easiest pest! One of the worst place to buy nematodes is at the garden centers, nematodes sit in the fridge far too long, go right to the source. 5 million nematodes should cover a nice size garden, veg and flower.
> 
> The way they work is really mind blowing too, as long as a few nematodes reach target pest and kaboom they multiply exponentially. nematodes dont actually eat the gnats or anything it's actually the fungus gnats larvae that are eating the nematodes, there is a nematode-bacterium symbiosis that exist and its the bacteria that the nematode takes along for the ride that does the killing, really cool stuff. I dont know how to explain like a nematologist would but nematodes are a fascinating creature and part of evolution.


Well it's great they worked as expected for you! I'm jealous! 

I tried twice without any luck at all, ordering from a company that ships them directly, coolpack included in summer. The second time, I did have a microscope and could see the nematodes were alive. And still. They didn't take, though I was mulching and keeping everything nicely moist too.

Though I didn't understand it at the time, now I am beginning to think that maybe my soil was too bacterial for the SF to survive in the longer term. There were always way more protozoans feeding on the bacteria than nematodes. 
Today, I took a look at the worm compost I am purposely making to be more fungal, and there were _lots _of nematodes, and different ones, in there.
Do you think that could be it?


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## Tomula (Dec 7, 2016)

If you want to fight bugs the organic way, get your hands on some diatomaceous earth and spray or sprinkle it on your plant or onto your soil. It has to be food grade. What it does? It is composed of tiny sharp particles it cuts the bug's skin dehydrating it and finally killing it. It is very versatile it can get rid of many bugs on your plant. I dunno how the worms like it and you might kill spiders with it too. Just my two cents. Cheers!


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## GreenSanta (Dec 7, 2016)

calliandra said:


> Well it's great they worked as expected for you! I'm jealous!
> 
> I tried twice without any luck at all, ordering from a company that ships them directly, coolpack included in summer. The second time, I did have a microscope and could see the nematodes were alive. And still. They didn't take, though I was mulching and keeping everything nicely moist too.
> 
> ...


what microscope are you using?


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## calliandra (Dec 8, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> what microscope are you using?


I have this one, which is what Elaine Ingham was recommending at the time, seeing I don't have a microscope dealer in my town anymore :/
http://www.microscopenet.com/40x400x-binocular-compound-siedentopf-microscope-with-builtin-digital-camera-soil-p-9814.html
She's recommending a newer one now though.

It's essential it has an Iris diaphragm, so it can do shadowing, otherwise you don't stand a chance of seeing anything.
Haha funny, just yesterday I took a comparison pic of a view without and with shadowing just for curiosity's sake.
 

And while I'm at it 
In this much more fungal environment, I'm beginning to see more diversity in nematodes:
at 400x (my max, sometimes I'd really like to get closer!):
 This one's either predatory because of those wide jaws and the sort of "tooth" at the front end. Or, if those inward-curvings are not a tooth, it's an omnivore who eats bacteria alot but can also munch algae.

And this one is definitely a bacterial feeder,
frilly lips, narrow straight mouth, very typical.
left of it a big flagellate, probably a peranema trichophorum in this case - got lucky searching googlepix & reading characterizations on this one, doesn't happen often for me - yet? haha


Cheers!


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## WindyCityKush (Dec 12, 2016)

@Lilwatt ....check this thread out too if you haven't already.


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## NaturalFarmer (Dec 21, 2016)

calliandra said:


> It's essential it has an Iris diaphragm, so it can do shadowing, otherwise you don't stand a chance of seeing anything.
> Haha funny, just yesterday I took a comparison pic of a view without and with shadowing just for curiosity's sake.
> View attachment 3848474 View attachment 3848475
> 
> !


Night and day. Awesome knowledge to know before buying. Do you know what model she recommends now by any chance? Or you for that matter?


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## calliandra (Dec 21, 2016)

NaturalFarmer said:


> Night and day. Awesome knowledge to know before buying. Do you know what model she recommends now by any chance? Or you for that matter?


Ah I went blind on recommendation in the end, I was too impatient to learn about microscopes and what's important and all that. So I can't really say much. From my personal experience with the one I have, it does the job. The software sucks, but should be replaceable if I ever get round to looking into that 
The ones Ingham is recommending now are a tad more expensive
http://www.soilfoodweb.com/Microscopes.html
Personally, I'd be tempted by the second one, where you have to buy the cam extra, but then are free to choose a cam really to your liking. 

Are you looking into getting one then!


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## NaturalFarmer (Dec 21, 2016)

Great link thank you. Yeah in the next few months if I can afford it. Slowly it has become more of a need than a want.


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## calliandra (Dec 21, 2016)

NaturalFarmer said:


> Great link thank you. Yeah in the next few months if I can afford it. Slowly it has become more of a need than a want.


Yeah if we really want to know what's going on, we've got to check. Though I do get this feeling that over time using the microscope as support, we won't really need it anymore as we develop a new feel for what good soil is like using our natural senses.

You'll love it, want or need, that'S for sure!


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## Aruanda (Dec 22, 2016)

Whew! 392 pages and 7,814 messages read later! Hahaha.

Finally made it to the end of this long thread. It becomes even greater of an accomplishment as time goes on, lol. IMHO, it's well worth it to read most of the thread or at least the first 70-100 pages as a few have already suggested. Decided to hold off on skipping ahead to ask anything and as I went, certain topics came up that cleared my questions and made way for others. It does a service to the group to do so as repetitive questions don't clutter up the thread, just my two pence.

Anyway, wanted to first give my thanks to @headtreep (not sure why I can't tag you but ok), and to all the contributors to this excellent thread.


I gotta say, even as someone with 7+ years experience in gardening and multiple certifications from Permaculture to Syntropic Ag, I myself got duped into thinking I needed some bottled stuff to grow cannabis when the time came. Container gardening is a new field for me too. Anyway, completed my first run recently using an organic base mix and a few BioBizz products. About a month in I found this thread and began reading and am now looking to amend my mix in a sort of revised Clackamas Coot's mix. My current mix is as such:

~54L (1.9cu ft.) total:
Perlite - 30%
Vermiculite - 5.5%
SPM - 30%
Coco pith/fiber - 15%
EWC - 16.6%
Biochar - 2.7%

So 38.3% Aeration, 45% soiless medium, and 16.6% EWC (Humus). The EWC I had from my own bin which I started like 2 years ago, but I didn't have enough at the time to make it 33% of the base.

I had added nothing else to this mix and the dynamic with the BioBizz products was a bit whacky. Anyway, I've managed to seek out, mostly online, the amendments I'll need (I'm not in the states so one has to be resourceful). So to this mix I'll add enough vermicompost to bring the percentage up to 30% (hopefully I'll have enough this time) as well as:

(Per cu.ft.):
- 1/2cup Neem meal
- 1/2cup kelp meal
- 1/2cup crustacean meal (crab/shrimp)
- 1/2cup fish meal
- 1/2cup Castor bean meal (5-0-0)

4 cups of some minerals (per cu.ft.):
3x Basalt
2x another rock dust mix
1x Bentonite
1x Oyster shell flour (or should this be 1/2cup per cu.ft.?)

Also to this mix (per cu.ft.):

- 1/2cup Gypsum
- 1/4cup SRP (what are people's arguments for NOT using soft rock phosphate?)
- Maybe a few tbsp of Dolo lime (Just cause I have it).

I'd also like to add some more diversified aeration material as the percentages will become altered with more EWC. I'm thinking of adding chunky coconut fiber/chips (I forget who suggested this idea but thanks!), rice hulls and perhaps some more inoculated Biochar. I forget who also said it but I'd also like to experiment with the cacao shells and I've given some thought to using Brazil nut shells as well. Trying to use what is local and explore new possibilities in my own context (let's just say I'm in the DEEP south, lol). I'll have to also solicit seafood restaurants or the fish market for the crab/shrimp and process it myself as I can't find any ready product (not a big fan of eating either of them, so will have to scavenge).

I'm going to try and source a few cups of forest soil, pasture soil and some soil from a transition zone between the two ecosystems and add it to my mix before cooking. May order the 6 Biodynamic compost preparations to structure the soil too. Thinking I'll then brew a simple AACT with EWC and indigenous soils halfway through the cooking and soak in while mixing. Wild harvesting some indigenous soils may be a bit difficult cause most of the soils where I am are Oxisols/Ultisols and a really weathered clay profile. I have been playing with the idea of dissolving a handful of clay soil in water and watering in (thanks to @Mohican ) for the CEC benefits. Depending how the soil pans out maybe I'll just collect IMO with cooked rice under a bambuzal and mix that in during the cooking. I'm not too worried about picking up any pathogens or anything as I know there will be beneficials to balance everything out. I'll be using some Stump Tea Myco or Rootwise inoculant on seeds and transplant roots as well. Also got some Grokashi coming my way to experiment with.

I'm thinking of trying to run 7gal and later 10-15 and would like to see how many cycles I can get, maybe 3-5, before dumping and reamending.

Well, sorry for the long winded post, glad to be here!


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## Aruanda (Dec 22, 2016)

Ah, the EWC/Vermicompost.

So I had been recycling my kitchen scraps and trying to close some material loops at home with my red wiggler friends for some time. But only now reading this thread did I get the idea to amend my bin (soon to be bins) with certain elements that I'd like to potencialize/make bioavailable to my plants. I had been adding egg shells and oyster shell powder every so often but now I am also adding some bone meal and canna ashes and stems and I'll probably start adding some other things as they come (botanicals, etc.). But that was a real 'ah-hah!' moment for me in learning that. Got that whole Vermicomposters unite thread to be inspired by next.

Besides rock dusts, oyster shell powder, bone/blood meal, SST solids, botanicals, etc., what are some things people like adding?


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## Fastslappy (Dec 22, 2016)

My worms luv sum cooked pinto beans ,had large batch stick on me & feed it to bin
week later mass of worms going to town on them


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## Aruanda (Dec 22, 2016)

My biggest question that I held off on asking this whole time reading but which never seemed to come up:

So we build this base mix with various elements, peat, coconut, EWC, leaf mold, rice hulls, etc. All most of these elements have a half life and break down in soil except for certain inert elements which have a different timeline, ok. People add topdressings of EWC and most would say their soil gets better with time. One thing I'm curious about is understanding these half lives of our soil elements and how over time the percentage (%) of humus/humic carbon materials increases as they break down plus the addition of topdress increases that %. What kind of considerations should be made in regard to the half lives of these elements if trying to also maintain those elements in balance in the soil? For instance, when peat breaks down, what characteristics of it become altered in the soil profile? Does one need to account for the altered characteristics of coconut coir in terms of its aeration capacity when it breaks down? Maybe I'm over thinking this or maybe the answer is just really simple...

Container gardening is interesting and I would agree with the sentiment expressed by a few on here already that not all broad acre farming practices necessarily translate to container gardening.

No-till is an ideal based on the evidence of erosion, compaction, microbiota loss, destruction of habitat, leeching, etc. in tillage systems. I think it works to a degree with potted plants, it would seem the volume of soil is a major factor in success as some are doing 20 cycles or more in large volumes. I'm not contesting that, as there are many that could attest. 
One thing I've heard from a mentor's observations of a system in Germany with canna (or possibly hemp, but I believe it still applies) was that they use a 7 year crop rotation. This means that year 1 they plant out canna on one plot and the next 6 years it goes to other crops and pastoral use where livestock till and deposit manure before cycling back to canna once again. As a nutrient demanding crop, this type of rotation makes sense to restore nutrients and probably goes a long ways towards pest resistance as well. This would reflect a recent poster's sentiment about rotating a crop in containers between canna to not always be monocropping (sorry, can't recall the OP's name).

Cover cropping in this context is interesting and after reading everyone's experience here I think I have to try different things for some time and come to my own conclusions. It would seem to me that rotating cover crops with various root structures and depths would help aerate the soil and would work well for a no till setup. But then again, how are the canna roots acting in this manner?
The whole clover debate is interesting too. One person's experience here gave me the impression that it may work well as a trap plant for spider mites (but if it's what attracts them in the first place?). I also wonder if mixing it with other plants that deter spider mites may allow you to still reap the benefits of the N fixing clover while not attracting mites? I'd like to experiment with sowing clover and others going into flower and assuring there's a CFL bulb below the canopy to supplement light. If it supplies just the right amount of N, then going into flower it could work towards preventing the fade. I wonder if the plants would produce better having that balanced N through flower and not fading out?


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## ShLUbY (Dec 26, 2016)

Aruanda said:


> So we build this base mix with various elements, peat, coconut, EWC, leaf mold, rice hulls, etc. All most of these elements have a half life and break down in soil except for certain inert elements which have a different timeline, ok. People add topdressings of EWC and most would say their soil gets better with time. One thing I'm curious about is understanding these half lives of our soil elements and how over time the percentage (%) of humus/humic carbon materials increases as they break down plus the addition of topdress increases that %. What kind of considerations should be made in regard to the half lives of these elements if trying to also maintain those elements in balance in the soil? For instance, when peat breaks down, what characteristics of it become altered in the soil profile? Does one need to account for the altered characteristics of coconut coir in terms of its aeration capacity when it breaks down? Maybe I'm over thinking this or maybe the answer is just really simple...


the short answer is, I don't know. however, these things are becoming a feel.... you can tell when pumice, perlite has broke down, the mix feels too heavy. you will lose peat to erosion. you will notice that you didn't need to re-amend so much humus because the mix feels muddy/heavy when wet. it's not an exact recipe... that's the beauty!



Aruanda said:


> No-till is an ideal based on the evidence of erosion, compaction, microbiota loss, destruction of habitat, leeching, etc. in tillage systems. I think it works to a degree with potted plants, it would seem the volume of soil is a major factor in success as some are doing 20 cycles or more in large volumes. I'm not contesting that, as there are many that could attest.
> One thing I've heard from a mentor's observations of a system in Germany with canna (or possibly hemp, but I believe it still applies) was that they use a 7 year crop rotation. This means that year 1 they plant out canna on one plot and the next 6 years it goes to other crops and pastoral use where livestock till and deposit manure before cycling back to canna once again. As a nutrient demanding crop, this type of rotation makes sense to restore nutrients and probably goes a long ways towards pest resistance as well. This would reflect a recent poster's sentiment about rotating a crop in containers between canna to not always be monocropping (sorry, can't recall the OP's name).


the fact is.... you are tailoring your soil indoors for cannabis. you don't need to worry about monocropping because you are putting back nutrients to the soil. sure you can do N fixing rotations but is it necessary? not really....

the way cannabis (and many other plants) in a real natural environment feed is by taking nutrients in solution from the top horizon of soil (generally referred to as the Organic Layer), and taking water from the lower horizons (sub layers). so as your lower layer of soil becomes more depleted of nutrients, you are amending nutrients into the top of the soil, as is done in nature when leaves fall to the ground, and things die and break down. 



Aruanda said:


> Cover cropping in this context is interesting and after reading everyone's experience here I think I have to try different things for some time and come to my own conclusions. It would seem to me that rotating cover crops with various root structures and depths would help aerate the soil and would work well for a no till setup. But then again, how are the canna roots acting in this manner?


in general (living) plant roots contain hormones and chemicals they create that deter other plant species roots from growing into one another. so having a living cover crop makes canna roots dive deeper into the soil.



Aruanda said:


> If it supplies just the right amount of N, then going into flower it could work towards preventing the fade. I wonder if the plants would produce better having that balanced N through flower and not fading out?


you dont want to prevent the fade. the fade is natural. the most beautiful time of the whole flower production is the end when you have purples and yellows and reds and oranges and light greens all on one plant. you should be inducing the fade by letting ice melt on the soil above your root system, and even decreasing the amount of water they get for the last bit of the flowering cycle. the cold water will start to slow down microbial activity, and less water will be less feeding done by the plant. 

hope this answers some of your Qs


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## ShLUbY (Dec 26, 2016)

Hey everyone.... 

looking for people who clone only with aloe....

i use an aeroponic cloner. my normal method would take a cup of water in a mason jar, put 5-8 drops of rooting gel in it, stir it around and put the cuttings in that solution for 24hrs and then into the 5 gal cloner they went until ready for soil.

for aloe with that same kind of process... would i mix say 1-2 tbsp of gel into 1-1.5 cups of water and then let the stems soak for 24 hours.... maybe change it after 12 hours? and then straight into the cloner....


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## sgarcata (Dec 28, 2016)

DesertGrow89 said:


> Why do you have rocks under the soil?


sorry for delay... bunch of "life" stepped in. I was following Soma's approach... think it has to do with getting oxygen down there plus a place for excess water to collect out of the soil.


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## sgarcata (Dec 28, 2016)

calliandra said:


> ...
> What I _should've _done was to add BT and SF mnematodes to the soil under that sand: it had perfectly moist conditions (the worms were right up there eating too!), better and more constant than my previous attempts to introduce nematodes using just mulch as cover. So that's going to be my next move.
> 
> What I did do to keep my plant happy whilst having that sand on, and given my microherd wasn't looking spectacular, was _exactly _what you are pondering: feeding living matter smoothies.
> ...


So the BT doesn't harm the worms, but attacks the fungus gnat larvae? I was wondering about that.


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## sgarcata (Dec 28, 2016)

GreenSanta said:


> ...
> 
> The way they work is really mind blowing too, as long as a few nematodes reach target pest and kaboom they multiply exponentially. nematodes dont actually eat the gnats or anything it's actually the fungus gnats larvae that are eating the nematodes, there is a nematode-bacterium symbiosis that exist and its the bacteria that the nematode takes along for the ride that does the killing, really cool stuff. I dont know how to explain like a nematologist would but nematodes are a fascinating creature and part of evolution.


Amazing! thanks for the details. Where do you find is the best source for the nematodes? I've bought from Arbico in the past, but don't have a reliable microscope to check.


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## sgarcata (Dec 28, 2016)

Aruanda said:


> Ah, the EWC/Vermicompost.
> 
> So I had been recycling my kitchen scraps and trying to close some material loops at home with my red wiggler friends for some time. But only now reading this thread did I get the idea to amend my bin (soon to be bins) with certain elements that I'd like to potencialize/make bioavailable to my plants. I had been adding egg shells and oyster shell powder every so often but now I am also adding some bone meal and canna ashes and stems and I'll probably start adding some other things as they come (botanicals, etc.). But that was a real 'ah-hah!' moment for me in learning that. Got that whole Vermicomposters unite thread to be inspired by next.
> 
> Besides rock dusts, oyster shell powder, bone/blood meal, SST solids, botanicals, etc., what are some things people like adding?


I only add kitchen scraps, but they LOVE cantaloupe and avocado. I've decided to start "cooking" my egg shells so they make smaller bits for them.


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## Biggobelly (Dec 28, 2016)

sgarcata said:


> Amazing! thanks for the details. Where do you find is the best source for the nematodes? I've bought from Arbico in the past, but don't have a reliable microscope to check.


I get mine from Amazon. The Sf (Steinernema feltiae) are for fungus gnat control...and they work on root aphids too.


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## Fastslappy (Dec 28, 2016)

2 weeks after some BT my fungus flies be gone


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## bizfactory (Jan 3, 2017)

Fastslappy said:


> 2 weeks after some BT my fungus flies be gone


What BT product did you use? Thanks!


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## elkamino (Jan 3, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> What BT product did you use? Thanks!


These have worked for me

 

They come in many forms on Amazon and elsewhere


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## bizfactory (Jan 3, 2017)

elkamino said:


> These have worked for me
> 
> They come in many forms on Amazon and elsewhere


I actually have that exact stuff in my cart on Amazon! Thanks.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 3, 2017)

Hey everyone. wondering if anyone could help me out with this.... The strain is Confidential Cheese, starting noticing slow growth around day 10...

These plants got some bad leaf growth early in flower. There are a few things I'm considering for the cause....

1) too much compost in the mix making it stay saturated and "choking" out the roots a bit of O2 and or causing the Ph to become off from limiting the microbial activity.

2) I have been using growstone, basically recycled glass turned into pumice, and its breaking down quickly in the mix (within a couple grows), and a lack of drainage material made my mix off, too saturated and resulting in the same thing as i am hypothesizing above.

basically i was unable to water as often as i would have liked to keep CEC in the soil going, and I think maybe there was water in the outskirts of the soil, but the main rootball had used up what was available, resulting in a lack of CEC in the soil, microbes slowed, as well as uptake of H2O for the plant.

3) too much N and caused delayed/slowed start to flowering? Is it N burn at the leaf tips/margins?




they seem to be doing much better now. new growth is coming on every day and is noticable.

thanks for your time guys, always appreciated.


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## kkt3 (Jan 4, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> Hey everyone....
> 
> looking for people who clone only with aloe....
> 
> ...


Hey ShLuby, I went 100% on my clones last time. All I did was cut off a piece of my aloe plant. Had my cups with dampened soil ready, then cut the clone branch, scored the outside of it for about 1/2", squeezed the aloe branch to make the aloe softer, then dipped the clone into the aloe and held it in there for about 10 seconds. Then pushed the clone into the soil and that's it!!!


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## WindyCityKush (Jan 4, 2017)

kkt3 said:


> Hey ShLuby, I went 100% on my clones last time. All I did was cut off a piece of my aloe plant. Had my cups with dampened soil ready, then cut the clone branch, scored the outside of it for about 1/2", squeezed the aloe branch to make the aloe softer, then dipped the clone into the aloe and held it in there for about 10 seconds. Then pushed the clone into the soil and that's it!!!


great method. how long did they take to root on average.


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2017)

kkt3 said:


> Hey ShLuby, I went 100% on my clones last time. All I did was cut off a piece of my aloe plant. Had my cups with dampened soil ready, then cut the clone branch, scored the outside of it for about 1/2", squeezed the aloe branch to make the aloe softer, then dipped the clone into the aloe and held it in there for about 10 seconds. Then pushed the clone into the soil and that's it!!!


When you clone in soil.... do you have to give the stem a little water every day?? like basically just drip around the stem so the cutting has water close by to take up?

my clones are starting to root now in the cloner. took a little longer than i would have liked.... but definitely an effective alternative. i only soaked them once for about 12 hours in the aloe/water concoction. i think next time im going soak them twice, and also do a dip in the aloe leaf itself after the first day or two and let the gel sit on the stem for a bit. but it's working as is now 

i think i'm going to do a kelp foliar when they are in the cloner next time as well. just make a little kelp tea for everything and give them some on the foliage.


----------



## kkt3 (Jan 5, 2017)

Usually around 10 days and they have started to root.

I kept the soil damp but not to damp. Like you say, a few drops of rainwater every now and then.


----------



## WeedWitchOR (Jan 5, 2017)

Whew... feel like I deserve a cookie after reading all that 

Doing my homework before setting up my tent. Will still do outdoor but want to to add indoor space for pheno hunting or off season stuff. Will be a 4x4 tent, still working out lighting. Separate veg area. Planning a mix of 20-25g pots and 5g for testing assuming I can get logistics to work. Big pots will be no-till for as long as possible. Smaller pots will be recycled. 

Soil mix will be organic bag soil amended with ewc, compost, leaf mold, rotted wood, rabbit poop, misc aeration and various meals/rock dusts as needed. 

Looking forward to getting this going.


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 6, 2017)

WeedWitchOR said:


> Whew... feel like I deserve a cookie after reading all that
> 
> Doing my homework before setting up my tent. Will still do outdoor but want to to add indoor space for pheno hunting or off season stuff. Will be a 4x4 tent, still working out lighting. Separate veg area. Planning a mix of 20-25g pots and 5g for testing assuming I can get logistics to work. Big pots will be no-till for as long as possible. Smaller pots will be recycled.
> 
> ...


as long as you understand what's going on with the biology you'll be fine. careful with the rotting wood, you should soak it in a pre charge like you would biochar, i know someone else who uses it and he said it can rob your soil of nutrients the same way the char does.

no tills are where i'm headed next. it just makes sense. think of a real pedon of soil and the horizons within it. top layer is the organic matter, next sublayer is slightly organic from having materials leaching into the soil. over the time lowest horizons will become depleted of organics from the original mix, and leave behind the rock dusts and other minerals as well as the peat and drainage. so this would be your parent material horizon. over the course of the grow you add more organic material to the top layer of soil (as would naturally happen in nature when things die and foliage is shed). water is taken up from parent material layers for most of the transpiration that the plant does. the plant feeds from the upper horizons where the organic materials are and microbes are breaking stuff down. replica of nature 

MAKE SURE you have something for mulch (rice hulls, sticks and stems from cannabis, thick layer of canna leaves, ect ect). I have found that to be one of the most crucial parts of organics. mulch not only slows evaporation from the soil, but it makes the soil wick its moisture throughout the pot. Also, things that don't appreciate light (roots, worms, mycelia) can now grow and roam to the very edge of the upper horizon of organic material and consume EVERYTHING. Have fun and share your results


----------



## NWHeadies (Jan 6, 2017)

what are good plants to grow in your no till while there is no cannabis plant in it to help grow your soil food web? I have clover on the way and i will be planting that for sure but any other suggestions?


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## ShLUbY (Jan 6, 2017)

NWHeadies said:


> what are good plants to grow in your no till while there is no cannabis plant in it to help grow your soil food web? I have clover on the way and i will be planting that for sure but any other suggestions?


BAS has a 12 seed variety pack they sell that I picked up... pretty diverse. I left a empty spot in the middle of the pot and when i would trim the clippings, i would bury them in the soil in the middle and within a week or two they would be consumed back into organic matter.

the main thing is you need to be turning the crops you grow, between canna crops, back into the soil. another important thing to note is that it's better to let them grow as long as possible so they can have the best effect on trying to cycle nutrients with them when you turn them back into the soil.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 6, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> BAS has a 12 seed variety pack they sell that I picked up... pretty diverse. I left a empty spot in the middle of the pot and when i would trim the clippings, i would bury them in the soil in the middle and within a week or two they would be consumed back into organic matter.
> 
> the main thing is you need to be turning the crops you grow, between canna crops, back into the soil. another important thing to note is that it's better to let them grow as long as possible so they can have the best effect on trying to cycle nutrients with them when you turn them back into the soil.


Quality post..................been thinkin about this muchos lately and done a little digging without success.

Been trying to find a list of plants that are known to form mycorhizae with the particular fungi that are thought to infect cannabis, ie glomus intraradices & glomus mosseae. In my mind, if you plant some of these in as companions and keep them livin in between your soil's always innoculated.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 6, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> as long as you understand what's going on with the biology you'll be fine. careful with the rotting wood, you should soak it in a pre charge like you would biochar, i know someone else who uses it and he said it can rob your soil of nutrients the same way the char does.
> 
> no tills are where i'm headed next. it just makes sense. think of a real pedon of soil and the horizons within it. top layer is the organic matter, next sublayer is slightly organic from having materials leaching into the soil. over the time lowest horizons will become depleted of organics from the original mix, and leave behind the rock dusts and other minerals as well as the peat and drainage. so this would be your parent material horizon. over the course of the grow you add more organic material to the top layer of soil (as would naturally happen in nature when things die and foliage is shed). water is taken up from parent material layers for most of the transpiration that the plant does. the plant feeds from the upper horizons where the organic materials are and microbes are breaking stuff down. replica of nature
> 
> MAKE SURE you have something for mulch (rice hulls, sticks and stems from cannabis, thick layer of canna leaves, ect ect). I have found that to be one of the most crucial parts of organics. mulch not only slows evaporation from the soil, but it makes the soil wick its moisture throughout the pot. Also, things that don't appreciate light (roots, worms, mycelia) can now grow and roam to the very edge of the upper horizon of organic material and consume EVERYTHING. Have fun and share your results


I used biochar for the first time on my current crop and had major problems. Plants looked fine at first but quickly became deficient and weakened. It didn't take long for PM & insects to take advantage of the situation, which cost me at least two weeks. 
I tested the soil and ph was also too high. Not sure if this was from biochar or the calcined clay that I was too lazy to rinse before mixing.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 6, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> I used biochar for the first time on my current crop and had major problems. Plants looked fine at first but quickly became deficient and weakened. It didn't take long for PM & insects to take advantage of the situation, which cost me at least two weeks.
> I tested the soil and ph was also too high. Not sure if this was from biochar or the calcined clay that I was too lazy to rinse before mixing.


was the biochar charged before you put it in the soil? I made my own biochar and charged it myself... and the test run i did with the mix was awesome. the plants were definitely superior. i ended up having to just mix that particular mix with the rest of my soils, but i'm going to be making more char soon for a second test batch and i'm looking forward to it. the plants that had the char had bigger nugs and grew wider/taller than the ones i tested against it. the only diff in the mixes was the char. I need to make some more soon and get it in all my mixes. i've just had too much other shit going on.

do yourself a favor if you have PM indoors, and get yourself a sulfur burner (it vaporizes not burns) and some sulfur prills off amazon and vaporize that shit in your grow. it will sterilize the environment and sulfur in large doses is highly antifungal and the plants will absorb the sulfur from the air and it will get rid of PM even in the stem tissues. It takes more than one application but let me tell you from experience... it's the only thing that actually works (other than eagle 20 but fuck that shit). i blasted my flower room when it was empty, and i blasted my veg room full of plants. then i blasted the flower room about 2 weeks into flower with the plants in there. i blasted the veg room again after that. I have been mildew freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. it's been so nice, i fought that shit for a year... IT SUCKS, the sulfur burner was the only thing that finally did the trick.


----------



## NWHeadies (Jan 6, 2017)

Sulfur burners are the tits for PM thats for sure best thing i have ever used.


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## Aruanda (Jan 7, 2017)

Interesting this suphur burner you speak of @ShLUbY I'll have to check it out. 

Your post reminded me of essential oil diffusers/atomizers. My friend has one from dōterra: https://doterra.com/US/en/p/usage-aroma-ace-diffuser

It diffuses/atomizes the oil into fine vapor that saturates the air in a space. Wondering now if something like this would be effective for essential oil IPM application as it would perhaps theoretically not just saturate the air but adhere to the surfaces of plants, etc.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jan 7, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> was the biochar charged before you put it in the soil? I made my own biochar and charged it myself... and the test run i did with the mix was awesome. the plants were definitely superior. i ended up having to just mix that particular mix with the rest of my soils, but i'm going to be making more char soon for a second test batch and i'm looking forward to it. the plants that had the char had bigger nugs and grew wider/taller than the ones i tested against it. the only diff in the mixes was the char. I need to make some more soon and get it in all my mixes. i've just had too much other shit going on.
> 
> do yourself a favor if you have PM indoors, and get yourself a sulfur burner (it vaporizes not burns) and some sulfur prills off amazon and vaporize that shit in your grow. it will sterilize the environment and sulfur in large doses is highly antifungal and the plants will absorb the sulfur from the air and it will get rid of PM even in the stem tissues. It takes more than one application but let me tell you from experience... it's the only thing that actually works (other than eagle 20 but fuck that shit). i blasted my flower room when it was empty, and i blasted my veg room full of plants. then i blasted the flower room about 2 weeks into flower with the plants in there. i blasted the veg room again after that. I have been mildew freeeeeeeeeeeeeeee. it's been so nice, i fought that shit for a year... IT SUCKS, the sulfur burner was the only thing that finally did the trick.


Thanks for the sulfur tip! Potassium bicarb took care of the PM for now, but it's a band-aid. I also grow outdoors, so mold & mildew don't really freak me out -- unless they're taking over. (I lost at least 4 zips to brown mold last fall & had to chop early.) 
Regarding the biochar, I just mixed it straight from the bag @ 5%.


----------



## DonBrennon (Jan 7, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Thanks for the sulfur tip! Potassium bicarb took care of the PM for now, but it's a band-aid. I also grow outdoors, so mold & mildew don't really freak me out -- unless they're taking over. (I lost at least 4 zips to brown mold last fall & had to chop early.)
> Regarding the biochar, I just mixed it straight from the bag @ 5%.
> View attachment 3870457 View attachment 3870458


Does it say if it's been charged or not anywhere on the bag? I can't believe a company manufacturing biochar for gardening purposes would sell you un-charged biochar without telling you to charge it before use.........very irrisponsible and I'd imagine would lose them a lot of custom. Lack of information on soil amendments really pisses me off and I believe it's worse here than in the States'.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 7, 2017)

DonBrennon said:


> Does it say if it's been charged or not anywhere on the bag? I can't believe a company manufacturing biochar for gardening purposes would sell you un-charged biochar without telling you to charge it before use.........very irrisponsible and I'd imagine would lose them a lot of custom. Lack of information on soil amendments really pisses me off and I believe it's worse here than in the States'.


That probably explains the problems I had after repotting. The plants were root bound in half gallon pots, so the soil was spent (FFOF). I had been giving them tea when they started looking pale, and it worked great. After repotting into the custom soil with biochar, it took about a week for all of them to fade, then the PM hit. Then the bugs showed up. It was a nasty fight but they look MUCH better now. These plants have been baptized by fire! Gonna do a final trim & flip em in a few days.


----------



## WeedWitchOR (Jan 7, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> as long as you understand what's going on with the biology you'll be fine. careful with the rotting wood, you should soak it in a pre charge like you would biochar, i know someone else who uses it and he said it can rob your soil of nutrients the same way the char does.
> 
> no tills are where i'm headed next. it just makes sense. think of a real pedon of soil and the horizons within it. top layer is the organic matter, next sublayer is slightly organic from having materials leaching into the soil. over the time lowest horizons will become depleted of organics from the original mix, and leave behind the rock dusts and other minerals as well as the peat and drainage. so this would be your parent material horizon. over the course of the grow you add more organic material to the top layer of soil (as would naturally happen in nature when things die and foliage is shed). water is taken up from parent material layers for most of the transpiration that the plant does. the plant feeds from the upper horizons where the organic materials are and microbes are breaking stuff down. replica of nature
> 
> MAKE SURE you have something for mulch (rice hulls, sticks and stems from cannabis, thick layer of canna leaves, ect ect). I have found that to be one of the most crucial parts of organics. mulch not only slows evaporation from the soil, but it makes the soil wick its moisture throughout the pot. Also, things that don't appreciate light (roots, worms, mycelia) can now grow and roam to the very edge of the upper horizon of organic material and consume EVERYTHING. Have fun and share your results


Formerly certified master gardener, all organic etc  Same tricks, new plant.


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 7, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Thanks for the sulfur tip! Potassium bicarb took care of the PM for now, but it's a band-aid. I also grow outdoors, so mold & mildew don't really freak me out -- unless they're taking over. (I lost at least 4 zips to brown mold last fall & had to chop early.)
> Regarding the biochar, I just mixed it straight from the bag @ 5%.
> View attachment 3870457 View attachment 3870458


looks like maybe it needs a charge. doesn't really say anything about it on the bag....


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## ShLUbY (Jan 7, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Thanks for the sulfur tip! Potassium bicarb took care of the PM for now, but it's a band-aid. I also grow outdoors, so mold & mildew don't really freak me out -- unless they're taking over. (I lost at least 4 zips to brown mold last fall & had to chop early.)
> Regarding the biochar, I just mixed it straight from the bag @ 5%.
> View attachment 3870457 View attachment 3870458


yeah i already been down the potassium bicarb route. like you said.... band-aid. it will come back about 5 - 6 weeks into flower because the plant is systemically infected.

I hear silica is good for isolating infections by means of the plants immune system mobilizing silica to the infection area and crystallizing the cells around the area to prevent spread.

problem is that PM is spore borne and those freaking spores are everywhere when your room has had it. if you see it show up again, get the burner


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 7, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> looks like maybe it needs a charge. doesn't really say anything about it on the bag....


Agreed. 
This was a learning experience. They guys at the hydro store didn't say anything about charging it either. Hmm... 
Maybe they knew it would cause problems & hoped I would spend more money on remedies???
Nope. This ain't my first rodeo. 
It wasn't pretty, but I got through it just fine.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 7, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Agreed.
> This was a learning experience. They guys at the hydro store didn't say anything about charging it either. Hmm...
> Maybe they knew it would cause problems & hoped I would spend more money on remedies???
> Nope. This ain't my first rodeo.
> It wasn't pretty, but I got through it just fine.


psh. hard to tell with them. the guys at my hydro stores KNOW ZERO SHIT about real organics. Hell, they dont even know shit about chemistry, or botany and actual plant processes at all. Say "Kreb cycle" to them and they'd be like "what???". they just sell what they can sell and make money. which is fine, it's a business and that's what they should do.

i'm not saying that all grow store guys are like this... but the ones i deal with.... yeah, it's a little rough. I hear bad advice from people getting advice from the grow stores all the time. hydroponics, they can do. i'll give them that


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## Chronikool (Jan 7, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> psh. hard to tell with them. the guys at my hydro stores KNOW ZERO SHIT about real organics. Hell, they dont even know shit about chemistry, or botany and actual plant processes at all. Say "Kreb cycle" to them and they'd be like "what???". they just sell what they can sell and make money. which is fine, it's a business and that's what they should do.
> 
> i'm not saying that all grow store guys are like this... but the ones i deal with.... yeah, it's a little rough. I hear bad advice from people getting advice from the grow stores all the time. hydroponics, they can do. i'll give them that


Whatz a 'grow store'...??!!!


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## Kind Sir (Jan 7, 2017)

I'm about to mix my soil up in a few days, what do you think? 

30% Sphagnum peat moss 
30% Malibu compost 
40% Aeration 

Neem cake (NeemResource)
Kelp meal 
Fish bone meal 
Crab shell meal 
Oyster shell flour 
Glacial Rock dust 


I have time to order a few things. 
Besides foliage, told dressings.. I was looking @

Basalt 
Red Wigglers 
Companion Plant


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 7, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> psh. hard to tell with them. the guys at my hydro stores KNOW ZERO SHIT about real organics. Hell, they dont even know shit about chemistry, or botany and actual plant processes at all. Say "Kreb cycle" to them and they'd be like "what???". they just sell what they can sell and make money. which is fine, it's a business and that's what they should do.
> 
> i'm not saying that all grow store guys are like this... but the ones i deal with.... yeah, it's a little rough. I hear bad advice from people getting advice from the grow stores all the time. hydroponics, they can do. i'll give them that


Hydro is where they make big money. Hell I was surprised they even had biochar. I even bought a box of langbeinite there last year! (Never saw it on the shelves again.)


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## Fastslappy (Jan 8, 2017)

http://rockdustlocal.com/index.html
for All of your basalt,rock flours, char needs 
I quit using azomite due to the high AL levels in it & use 3 of these flours + the basalt as a mix for my mineral needs 
any of these bio-chars that are being sold as of late in the US is reclaimed beetles killed western fir & cedar 
both are really Soft & i've not had good luck with it both in the garden & in my grows & have gone back to Whole Foods Cowboy chunk charcoal (100% hardwood ) & it's actually cheaper too


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## ShLUbY (Jan 8, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Hydro is where they make big money. Hell I was surprised they even had biochar. I even bought a box of langbeinite there last year! (Never saw it on the shelves again.)


My store has a bunch of organic DTE amendments and another MI based company called Organically Done. I can get most things i need there, but
I have to order in once in a while. Probably been to the grow store 4 times in the last year though,the guy is always like "man havent seen you in a while!". Im thinking... yup sure is nice


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## Fastslappy (Jan 8, 2017)

Anyone using SST or malted grains ?
I've tried both & like them


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## Chronikool (Jan 8, 2017)

Fastslappy said:


> Anyone using SST or malted grains ?
> I've tried both & like them


Both....part of my bi- weekly


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## DesertGrow89 (Jan 8, 2017)

@Chunky Stool What percentage of calcined clay is in your mix? I've found it can hold too much water depending on the percentage used in the root substrate.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 8, 2017)

DesertGrow89 said:


> @Chunky Stool What percentage of calcined clay is in your mix? I've found it can hold too much water depending on the percentage used in the root substrate.


25%
My favorite soilless mix (Gritty Kitty) is now a 4-part:
2 parts ProMix HP (or sunshine #4) 
1 part rinsed Special Kitty 
1 part rinsed coco coir
Try it, you'll like it! 

I should also mention that @RM3 also uses special kitty (he gave me the tip). His mix is half clay, half sunshine #4.


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## Kind Sir (Jan 8, 2017)

I'm sorry to 


ShLUbY said:


> My store has a bunch of organic DTE amendments and another MI based company called Organically Done. I can get most things i need there, but
> I have to order in once in a while. Probably been to the grow store 4 times in the last year though,the guy is always like "man havent seen you in a while!". Im thinking... yup sure is nice




I'm sorry to bug you, what do you think about my mix? Should I add anything else? And what size pots do to use indoors?


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## bizfactory (Jan 8, 2017)

Anyone delt with broad mites organically?


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jan 8, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Anyone delt with broad mites organically?


Broad mites are a bitch.
If you are in flower, the best option is early harvest, IMHO.
(Don't forget to rinse buds w/mild peroxide solution before drying.)
If you are still in veg, hot shots will nuke mites. Gotta minimize airflow for it to work effectively because they use vapor to kill bugs. Penetrates every nook & cranny.
Good luck!
(I realize hot shots are not organic, but nothing else has worked well for me.)


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## ShLUbY (Jan 8, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> I'm sorry to
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No bother mang, that's why we're here  I think your mix looks good. I'd definitely get the basalt for extra mineral content. worms are good for worm bin, but those composting worms dont do tunneling like a night crawler would, if that's what you're looking for.
I have some gypsum in my mix for some extra calcium mainly, but honestly I've never done a run without it so i couldn't tell you if it's crucial or not. but Ca is always a good thing to have, as its used a lot during flower production and helps build strong stalks and cell walls.
I also have some insect frass in the mix as well for some extra chitin material. it has a 2-2-2 NPK from what I remember. my early mixes did fine without the frass though, not a deal breaker by any means.
For pots i'm running 7.5 fabs right now but i think i'll be moving to 10 gal. The next run of 4 con cheese I do is gonna have one 10 gal fab, one 7.5 gal fab, one 5 gal plastic, and one 7-10 gal plastic. So i'm gonna see which pots that particular strain likes.
it's good to experiment and see what works for you and the types of strains you grow.
my friend was just telling me the other day about a couple strains he has that he only grows under LED because they just produce better.
one thing i would suggest is getting some cowboy charcoal and making some bio char. smash that shit up in a sheet or something into the smallest pieces you can make. charge it for a week, like making an aerated tea basically, with some minerals and nutrients (heaviest on the N side for the nutes), and then for the last day i put some molasses and castings in there to help populate the char with organisms as well. drain it, but don't let it dry, just mix it right in. i saw some good results when using it and i'm working on getting some more together for my mix to have all the time.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 8, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Anyone delt with broad mites organically?


never dealt with them, but captain jack's is some good shit and it always eliminates pests for me.


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## Kind Sir (Jan 8, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> No bother mang, that's why we're here  I think your mix looks good. I'd definitely get the basalt for extra mineral content. worms are good for worm bin, but those composting worms dont do tunneling like a night crawler would, if that's what you're looking for.
> I have some gypsum in my mix for some extra calcium mainly, but honestly I've never done a run without it so i couldn't tell you if it's crucial or not. but Ca is always a good thing to have, as its used a lot during flower production and helps build strong stalks and cell walls.
> I also have some insect frass in the mix as well for some extra chitin material. it has a 2-2-2 NPK from what I remember. my early mixes did fine without the frass though, not a deal breaker by any means.
> For pots i'm running 7.5 fabs right now but i think i'll be moving to 10 gal. The next run of 4 con cheese I do is gonna have one 10 gal fab, one 7.5 gal fab, one 5 gal plastic, and one 7-10 gal plastic. So i'm gonna see which pots that particular strain likes.
> ...


Ohh so nightcralwers are better for actually in the pots? Didn't know that! I can buy those locally I bet.


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## CaptainCAVEMAN (Jan 8, 2017)

The pictures at the beginning of this thread no longer show up. So will that happen to all the threads and all the pictures we post? 
Apologies, I know it's off topic and this is not forum support, I just went back to page 1 to refrence some old info and was shocked the pics were gone which in turn makes quite a few posts irrelevant.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 8, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> Ohh so nightcralwers are better for actually in the pots? Didn't know that! I can buy those locally I bet.


i would think you could have a few of each in there as they have separate domains. especially in a 10 gal.


----------



## DesertGrow89 (Jan 8, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> 25%
> My favorite soilless mix (Gritty Kitty) is now a 4-part:
> 2 parts ProMix HP (or sunshine #4)
> 1 part rinsed Special Kitty
> ...


Yeah I've tried it and just think that you would get a higher quality finished product with a ROLS mix, Perhaps the quality of RM3s cannabis is top shelf despite not being organic, I don't know. But I do know there was far too much water retention with the clay, and I didn't even use that much (special kitty). Won't go back to it again but wish you well with it and hope that it works for you!


----------



## Aruanda (Jan 10, 2017)

@CaptainCAVEMAN Yeah I noticed that too when I read through this thread. A lot of missing photos near the beginning. I was frustrated wanting to see people's beautiful organic flowers but to no avail. There are others throughout the thread that are missing. Sometimes if I reloaded the page they'd show up though, not the ones near the start from the originators which is a bummer.


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## GreenSanta (Jan 12, 2017)

Hey lets have everyone post pics of kick ass flowers grown ROLS , till or no till,, show ur organic flowers! I ll post some pics of dried nugs and plants, gimme a couple days, lets fill this thread with pics of dank flowers again.


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## bizfactory (Jan 12, 2017)

4th cycle in 15g fabric pots. Probably my best overall run to date. I post a lot on ig if you wanna see more: https://www.instagram.com/bizfactory/

GG#4 (maybe...not quite as frosty as I've seen before)
 

LA Chocolat
 

Lemon G
 

GG#4 is in front left and LA Chocolat is in the back right
 

Lemon G tent


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## ShLUbY (Jan 12, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> 4th cycle in 15g fabric pots.



are you no tilling the 15g or amending after each run?


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## bizfactory (Jan 12, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> are you no tilling the 15g or amending after each run?


No till, just top dressing.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 13, 2017)

Confidential Cheese.... the smell is soooooo nice. Grape/Berry/Very mild cheese undertone


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jan 14, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> Confidential Cheese.... the smell is soooooo nice. Grape/Berry/Very mild cheese undertone
> 
> View attachment 3875896 View attachment 3875897


Love that high brix shine!


----------



## Chronikool (Jan 14, 2017)

'Ultimate Jack Hammer'


----------



## GreenSanta (Jan 15, 2017)

Memory Loss

   

THERAPY CBD in SIP, 3rd round.
    

Spacebomb X Haoma X Senora Ampero X Pennywise


??


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## GreenSanta (Jan 15, 2017)

Memory Loss, SIP 4th round


Spacebomb X Haoma X Senora Ampero X Pennywise

Everything is Recycled Organic Living soil, worms, worm castings, nothing fancy. no spray from start to finish, 100% organic. 100% tap water. That's how I do it.


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## DrCannaPath (Jan 21, 2017)

Hey everyone......I came across this Ukrainian soil amendment called Sapropel or saprozem fertilizer 
And I was wondering if anyone is familiar with it or has used it or anything similar. Mixing it or top as mulch maybe? 

Description:
Sapropel - environmentally friendly fertilizer, contains the most important batteries of plants. Sapropel is rich with organic substances, contains nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, magnesium, calcium.
This is the description from the retailer:

The sapropel-uniform student invisible weight consisting of the organo-mineral substances which are formed of the remains of the plants and animal and mineral and organic impurity brought in reservoirs by water and wind. Sapropelic fertilizers are made from ground deposits of fresh-water reservoirs which were created from the died-off water vegetation, the remains of live organisms, and also particles of soil humus, peat, clay and sand. Sapropelic fertilizers - the irreplaceable product applied to radical improvement of the earth for its recultivation and sanitation. When entering sapropelic fertilizers into the soil, its mechanical structure, water-absorbing and moisture-holding ability improves, for 2-3 years gives increase in the soil a humus and, activates soil processes. Thanks to slow solubility of the substances operating in a product the balanced food of plants is provided with all batteries.


Check out my new QuadStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/916619/
and my previous TriStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/883569/


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## ShLUbY (Jan 23, 2017)

I noticed upon examination of my amendments, that there seems to be a bit of K missing from the coots mix.

where do you all get your K from?? I've noticed some slight P and K def. late in flower, and i just know that the yield should be higher than what it's been for me. I'm not expecting hydro results here or anything so don't get me wrong. I'm just thinking 12oz off a 600 is a little low that's all.

I have a product i'll be experimenting with and following the package instructions http://organicallydone.com/products/Bloom-Boost/

mix in 1tbsp at transplant (the container they'll be flowering in), 1-2 tbsp topdress at initial flowering, and 1-2 tbsp 3 weeks into flower. seems like pretty decent instruction; plenty of time to get completely used up by the end of flower. i'll be applying closer to the 1tbsp rate for first trials.


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## Fozze (Jan 23, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> I noticed upon examination of my amendments, that there seems to be a bit of K missing from the coots mix.
> 
> where do you all get your K from?? I've noticed some slight P and K def. late in flower, and i just know that the yield should be higher than what it's been for me. I'm not expecting hydro results here or anything so don't get me wrong. I'm just thinking 12oz off a 600 is a little low that's all.
> 
> ...


Organically done is pretty good stuff. I haven't used the his mixes, but I give a thumbs up to the crab and shrimp, the kelp, fish, and oyster shell.

Kelp tea along with some enzyme tea usually gets me through flower. Wood ash would work too. You need to cook it or have faith the you have enough ph buffers in there. Greensand and rice hulls are super slow release options. Eat more bananas and compost the peels. Your compost will always have tons of K


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## bizfactory (Jan 23, 2017)

Fozze said:


> Kelp tea along with some enzyme tea usually gets me through flower.


How do you make the kelp tea? Do you just throw some kelp meal in water and let it sit or actually brew / aerate?


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## ShLUbY (Jan 23, 2017)

Fozze said:


> Organically done is pretty good stuff. I haven't used the his mixes, but I give a thumbs up to the crab and shrimp, the kelp, fish, and oyster shell.
> 
> Kelp tea along with some enzyme tea usually gets me through flower. Wood ash would work too. You need to cook it or have faith the you have enough ph buffers in there. Greensand and rice hulls are super slow release options. Eat more bananas and compost the peels. Your compost will always have tons of K


yeah i eat a bunch of bananas but the ratio of banana to compost is wayyyyyyy not enough haha. I will be giving the worms i just got going a few weeks ago my banana peels (and occasional rotting banana) and that should help me out a little. I am going to try out some Kelp tea in flower and mix that with some coconut water and see if i have some better results.

bubble kelp meal @ what rate for 24 hours???


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## Fozze (Jan 23, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> How do you make the kelp tea? Do you just throw some kelp meal in water and let it sit or actually brew / aerate?


I just do 1/4-1/2 cup per 5 gallons. Bubble for about 24 hours. Sometimes I forget and just stir as much as possible over a few hours. If I really screwed up, I have some rehydrated kelp in the fridge. Nice little trick (maybe even from coots?). In jar or bottle put 1/4 cup kelp, half cup water, let sit, pour off (and keep) excess water, puree, store. 1/2 a tbsp per gallon.

I'm not sure of the rate per se, ShLUbY, but you don't need much power. My air pump is pretty small. It only gives my bucket a little ripple, but the tea is always good to go in no more than 24 hours. I'll see if I can't figure out the specs for you


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## ShLUbY (Jan 23, 2017)

Fozze said:


> I just do 1/4-1/2 cup per 5 gallons. Bubble for about 24 hours. Sometimes I forget and just stir as much as possible over a few hours. If I really screwed up, I have some rehydrated kelp in the fridge. Nice little trick (maybe even from coots?). In jar or bottle put 1/4 cup kelp, half cup water, let sit, pour off (and keep) excess water, puree, store. 1/2 a tbsp per gallon.
> 
> I'm not sure of the rate per se, ShLUbY, but you don't need much power. My air pump is pretty small. It only gives my bucket a little ripple, but the tea is always good to go in no more than 24 hours. I'll see if I can't figure out the specs for you


by rate i just meant how much kelp per x gals of water. thanks a bunch. i'll be making a tea this weekend when i get back home to take care of the ladies


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## Fozze (Jan 23, 2017)

Haha....right on! Just peeped your thread a little earlier. Keep it up, brother! Good luck


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

Fozze said:


> Haha....right on! Just peeped your thread a little earlier. Keep it up, brother! Good luck


thanks. i'm recently back from about a year hiatus. trying to get rid of PM for about a year in the grow room left me unmotivated after failing so many times. finally back on track and looking to crush some organics  perpetual grows back in action life is good. thanks for checkin it out.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 24, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> thanks. i'm recently back from about a year hiatus. trying to get rid of PM for about a year in the grow room left me unmotivated after failing so many times. finally back on track and looking to crush some organics  perpetual grows back in action life is good. thanks for checkin it out.


With PM, it's all about humidity & airflow.
People have told me that PM will return late in flower, but if you keep humidity around 35% the last 4 weeks, you won't see it again.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> With PM, it's all about humidity & airflow.
> People have told me that PM will return late in flower, but if you keep humidity around 35% the last 4 weeks, you won't see it again.


not true. my humidity was 30% all the time during winter, never above that and i had mildew on plants previously infected that were treated (sprayed with K bicarb) many times before flower and during the first couple weeks. 

what's happening is applying treatments you are changing the leaf surface ph, preventing the conidiophore from growing on the leaf surface. the actual PM organism in a previously infected plant is silently hiding away waiting for the ph of the leaf surface to change once the treatment degrades over time. by the 5th week of flower (typically 3 weeks after the final treatment) the plants brix is super high which is what the mildew organism wants. leaf surface ph stabilizes to normal with degradation of the spray on treatments (because you don't want to spray your flowers) and boom, mildew fruiting bodies everywhere releasing more spores! it's a nasty cycle that's for sure.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 24, 2017)

High brix plants have increased immunity. It is never a bad thing.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> High brix plants have increased immunity. It is never a bad thing.


yeah they do when they haven't been infected previously lol. but damn i am glad that the mildew is all over with for me. what a freaking battle it was.


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## Chronikool (Jan 24, 2017)

Ultimate Jack Hammer - Done (too long!)


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

yeah she has some nice ambers in there.... not too many though.... just gonna be couchy buzz  

Great photo. what are you using to take these high res shots?


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## Chronikool (Jan 24, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah she has some nice ambers in there.... not too many though.... just gonna be couchy buzz
> 
> Great photo. what are you using to take these high res shots?


To many amberz for this guy...sort of slipped under the radar and wasn't expecting it to be finished in 53-54 days...(this is about 62 I think)

I use a Lumix G7 with macro lens... love it aye!


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## greasemonkeymann (Jan 24, 2017)

Chronikool said:


> View attachment 3884124
> Ultimate Jack Hammer - Done (too long!)


ahhh, now THATS a fully ripe nug, done perfect man
I don't think that's late at all
one of the better pics of a fully ripe nug that I've seen in a while
good job man


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

greasemonkeymann said:


> ahhh, now THATS a fully ripe nug, done perfect man
> I don't think that's late at all
> one of the better pics of a fully ripe nug that I've seen in a while
> good job man


he's got a couple nice shots a page or two back. his photos always make me drool face


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## greasemonkeymann (Jan 24, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> I noticed upon examination of my amendments, that there seems to be a bit of K missing from the coots mix.
> 
> where do you all get your K from?? I've noticed some slight P and K def. late in flower, and i just know that the yield should be higher than what it's been for me. I'm not expecting hydro results here or anything so don't get me wrong. I'm just thinking 12oz off a 600 is a little low that's all.
> 
> ...


langbeinite is a good source, alfalfa meal, neem meal
greensand is another great one for no till
wood ashes.. I don't mess with those though


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

greasemonkeymann said:


> langbeinite is a good source, shrimp meals, neem meal
> greensand is another great one for no till
> wood ashes.. I don't mess with those though


yeah neem meal not so much. i'll compare shrimp to crab. need something a little more substantial though. its waaaaayyyy K deficient. i mean theres enough that the plant isn't pissed.... but i know there is more potential for the mix. I think the product i have is gonna give me the boost that i need (0-0-24) just need a little at a time. won't be using it for the soil mix, i'll just mix it in when i transplant into the flowering container and do the top dresses and see how it goes. I'll be doing a trial in my grow thread when the gorilla glue are ready to transplant for flower and we'll see how they do! Already will be trying it out with the 4 con cheese i just transplanted but i did that with no control so i won't know if it's actually working or not unless i compare it to the 4 that are coming down this weekend.


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## greasemonkeymann (Jan 24, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah neem meal not so much. i'll compare shrimp to crab. need something a little more substantial though. its waaaaayyyy K deficient. i mean theres enough that the plant isn't pissed.... but i know there is more potential for the mix. I think the product i have is gonna give me the boost that i need (0-0-24) just need a little at a time. won't be using it for the soil mix, i'll just mix it in when i transplant into the flowering container and do the top dresses and see how it goes. I'll be doing a trial in my grow thread when the gorilla glue are ready to transplant for flower and we'll see how they do! Already will be trying it out with the 4 con cheese i just transplanted but i did that with no control so i won't know if it's actually working or not unless i compare it to the 4 that are coming down this weekend.


you positive that it's a potassium def?
I haven't run across that one before man
I have seen some soils that hold too much water before, kinda fools you into thinking it's a def
side note, I coulda swore that I've seen shrimp meal high in potassium but all the ones i'm seeing are around 6-6-0..
let me look a lil more


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## greasemonkeymann (Jan 24, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah neem meal not so much. i'll compare shrimp to crab. need something a little more substantial though. its waaaaayyyy K deficient. i mean theres enough that the plant isn't pissed.... but i know there is more potential for the mix. I think the product i have is gonna give me the boost that i need (0-0-24) just need a little at a time. won't be using it for the soil mix, i'll just mix it in when i transplant into the flowering container and do the top dresses and see how it goes. I'll be doing a trial in my grow thread when the gorilla glue are ready to transplant for flower and we'll see how they do! Already will be trying it out with the 4 con cheese i just transplanted but i did that with no control so i won't know if it's actually working or not unless i compare it to the 4 that are coming down this weekend.


the reason I mention that is because out of ALL the nutrients, a soil that is too dense will effect potassium the most.
so you can have it there, but if the soil is too moist or anaerobic the potassium won't be used
not to mention the acidity as well
organic soils, because of the added water retention can create these problems moreso than the chem-guys, so a lot of growers haven't seen it


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

greasemonkeymann said:


> the reason I mention that is because out of ALL the nutrients, a soil that is too dense will effect potassium the most.
> so you can have it there, but if the soil is too moist or anaerobic the potassium won't be used
> not to mention the acidity as well
> organic soils, because of the added water retention can create these problems moreso than the chem-guys, so a lot of growers haven't seen it


well now that you mention that..... i think topdressing the potassium is going to the bee's knees and best bet for proper flowering nutrition  

the run of cheese i have finishing up right now def had too much compost and i had lost some of my pumice due to either compaction or mixing the soil in the tumbler broke down some of it....

How much compost do you typically amend after a single run??? @greasemonkeymann surely you don't put 33% back in???? it seemed like that was too much when i got the soil mixed back up and moistened properly again. 

i will be doing the jar test from now on before adding compost to make sure i dont add too much cause it seems like the roots break down and make some organic matter during the rest and amending process.


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## GreenSanta (Jan 24, 2017)

Chronikool said:


> View attachment 3884124
> Ultimate Jack Hammer - Done (too long!)


yeah I tend to harvest a hair earlier than this, however she actually looks like what most people would call perfect.


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## Chronikool (Jan 24, 2017)

This won't make you drool @ShLUbY ....

Itz a one of our little friendz taking a shit facing the camera...


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2017)

Chronikool said:


> This won't make you drool @ShLUbY ....
> 
> Itz a one of our little friendz taking a shit facing the camera...
> 
> View attachment 3884445


i laughed so hard i drooled!!!!


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## GreenSanta (Jan 24, 2017)

I was harvesting worms today, and then I thought, who would have thunk? a colony of worms would make me so so SOOOOO happy lol


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## DesertGrow89 (Jan 24, 2017)

Hey fellas, Dr Elaine Ingham is hosting a FREE webinar this Sunday, the 29th, at 12:00. Its about restoring the soil food web, achieving higher yields, etc. 

link to the webinar can be found on fb..

No affiliation


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## GreenSanta (Jan 24, 2017)

DesertGrow89 said:


> Hey fellas, Dr Elaine Ingham is hosting a FREE webinar this Sunday, the 29th, at 12:00. Its about restoring the soil food web, achieving higher yields, etc.
> 
> link to the webinar can be found on fb..
> 
> No affiliation


Post the link here if u can
Cheers


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## DesertGrow89 (Jan 25, 2017)

https://app.webinarjam.net/r/0/0/live/1506/5773297357/0/87860931

Good link, enjoy!


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## DonTesla (Jan 25, 2017)

Chronikool said:


> This won't make you drool @ShLUbY ....
> 
> Itz a one of our little friendz taking a shit facing the camera...
> 
> View attachment 3884445


lmao, oh chronikool.. thats fuckin hikarious..


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## Chronikool (Jan 25, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> lmao, oh chronikool.. thats fuckin hikarious..


Pity it came out a bit grainy on RIU...oh well... the attitude is still there from the smart ass little squirmer...!!


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## greasemonkeymann (Jan 25, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> well now that you mention that..... i think topdressing the potassium is going to the bee's knees and best bet for proper flowering nutrition
> 
> the run of cheese i have finishing up right now def had too much compost and i had lost some of my pumice due to either compaction or mixing the soil in the tumbler broke down some of it....
> 
> ...


oh no, I don't re-amend to that degree at all, after the two runs, (hybrid no-till) I re-amend, and it's not something I measure out really, but i'd say I put maybe a good 10-15% back in? (probably 10% compost and 5% castings)
all depends on which container I have and such, also outside grows tend to deplete the humus/compost more (speaking of, WHERE does that go??)
anyways, bigger plants tend to "consume" the compost, so those containers need more of a re-amend rate
but I eye-ball it, I just picture the approx. "look" of the mix from before and match it to the aeration%, but it's all by eye.
Sorry I couldn't be more specific, but I think you follow me, ya?
just picture how a "normal" mix looks after it's done and then match it with however much compost you need.

But conversely a small container, like the iddy-biddy 1 gallons that I do my pheno-hunts in, those need almost a 33% replenishment, but those are fairly rootbound too

I guess the main point I was trying to make is that in a humus heavy mix you can NEVER have too much aeration, but you *can* suffer a lot of maladies (that are hard to diagnose BTW) with a too dense media


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## ShLUbY (Jan 25, 2017)

greasemonkeymann said:


> oh no, I don't re-amend to that degree at all, after the two runs, (hybrid no-till) I re-amend, and it's not something I measure out really, but i'd say I put maybe a good 10-15% back in? (probably 10% compost and 5% castings)
> all depends on which container I have and such, also outside grows tend to deplete the humus/compost more (speaking of, WHERE does that go??)
> anyways, bigger plants tend to "consume" the compost, so those containers need more of a re-amend rate
> but I eye-ball it, I just picture the approx. "look" of the mix from before and match it to the aeration%, but it's all by eye.
> ...


yeah i made the mistake of putting in too much compost in my current run of cheese about to come down. just heavy pots and had a very slow start to flower. i could tell that something was wrong by the way they were growing.
so i'll start adding much less into the mix after use. this makes a lot of sense  So you do 2 runs with a container.... your 5 gallons? and do you just cut out the big stemm and plant back in??? do tell.... also did you see the Jar Test thread i put up a lil bit ago?? its a good way to see what your base mix is looking like to take some of the guess work out. i didnt think to use it until it was too late and the damage was done and then i remember about it.

your compost is being totally broken down by the microbes into plant available nutrients, and carbon to build their own bodily structures. i think plants pull some carbon from the soil, but most all of it comes from the air....

and outside, if you don't use containers, you have leaching into the soil with organic materials. once they're broken down so far they're small enough to leach into the soil and then be completely consumed..... or maybe indoors we can never compare to the number of microbes that are outdoors???


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## NWHeadies (Jan 26, 2017)

Does anyone re amend gypsum powder into there soil or feed it to there worm bins? My original soils did not have it and the size of my tent does not allow me to do no till until i can afford a bigger tent in the future. Anyways so i will be doing the same practices and recycling and reamending my soil for now. Any ideas on how much gypsum powder to reamend with in between runs and if its safe as a top dressing and water in kind of thing too? Supposed to help with the terps and not burn anything is what i read but i like to be extra careful.

Also any worm guys can i feed my worms straight alfalfa meal into my worm bin or will it become too hot and cause them harm even if i put it on one side of the pot and cover it or just do a little at a time? Also can i feed them pre mixed recycled soil as some of there grit since i ran out of pumice.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 26, 2017)

NWHeadies said:


> Does anyone re amend gypsum powder into there soil or feed it to there worm bins? My original soils did not have it and the size of my tent does not allow me to do no till until i can afford a bigger tent in the future. Anyways so i will be doing the same practices and recycling and reamending my soil for now. Any ideas on how much gypsum powder to reamend with in between runs and if its safe as a top dressing and water in kind of thing too? Supposed to help with the terps and not burn anything is what i read but i like to be extra careful.


i have granular gypsum and i generally amend 1/2cup/cuft of soil after each grow. being that you have powder gypsum, it would break down faster so i think you'd have no worries amending at that rate after each grow as long as you're roots are maxing out your container each run. also you can topdress amendments like that if you didn't get to put them in your mix. a tablespoon or two worked into the top of the soil will definitely do the trick

gypsum is calcium sulfate so you never would get burn from this product as it contains no NPK. and yes folks put it in their worm bins as well. a little goes a long way in the bins.


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## Fozze (Jan 26, 2017)

NWHeadies said:


> Does anyone re amend gypsum powder into there soil or feed it to there worm bins? My original soils did not have it and the size of my tent does not allow me to do no till until i can afford a bigger tent in the future. Anyways so i will be doing the same practices and recycling and reamending my soil for now. Any ideas on how much gypsum powder to reamend with in between runs and if its safe as a top dressing and water in kind of thing too? Supposed to help with the terps and not burn anything is what i read but i like to be extra careful.
> 
> Also any worm guys can i feed my worms straight alfalfa meal into my worm bin or will it become too hot and cause them harm even if i put it on one side of the pot and cover it or just do a little at a time? Also can i feed them pre mixed recycled soil as some of there grit since i ran out of pumice.


SchLUby's got you right on the gypsum. I add it at the same rate, though these days I eyeball the soil and guess at how many cups of different things I need to add.

You can feed worms alfalfa for sure. Youre right to have some concern because the N levels can cause a bin or pile to get hot if used in large quantities. But yeah, worms like the shit out of it!


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## NWHeadies (Jan 27, 2017)

Thanks for the answers the aloe yarrow and stinging nettle seedlings are growing still waiting on the comfrey root so show up. My worm bin is all set up i just have to wait for proper weather for them to ship and stay alive. Cant wait for that home made black gold in six months or so.


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## Rrog (Jan 27, 2017)

http://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/microbiome-science-could-bring-revolution-medical-care-n710861

little off-topic but you guys will relate


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## elkamino (Jan 27, 2017)

Rrog said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/microbiome-science-could-bring-revolution-medical-care-n710861
> 
> little off-topic but you guys will relate


Holy shit _our_ bodies are 4:1 _foreign_ bodies! I knew there was a yuge # of bacteria in/on me, but I never knew the ratio of ME : The Others was so skewed! Thanks for sharing Rrog, what a perfect forum for this topic... lol


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## Rrog (Jan 27, 2017)

Ya. Something like 4 pounds of microbes in us and on us if you're healthy. 

The more you really soak all this in, the more soil seems like the only way to go. It's all part of what it's supposed to be.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 27, 2017)

Kids are brought up in such a sanitised environment these days, it's no wonder they're all fucked up(immunity wise, if nothing else). Nothing better for kids than playing in the dirt and taking a few hard knocks, also, Antibiotics should only be for serious infections, or prevention of in special circumstances, not dished out like sweeties.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 27, 2017)

Rrog said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/mach/science/microbiome-science-could-bring-revolution-medical-care-n710861
> 
> little off-topic but you guys will relate


awesome read. sent it to my bio professor. Makes a lot of sense why everyone in developed nations is so fucked up.... we've steralized our populations....


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## Rrog (Jan 27, 2017)

What I find satisfying is that the closer a plant or animal is raised naturally and stress free- the better. The quality of the meat and produce is better the more you leave it alone.


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## calliandra (Jan 27, 2017)

DonBrennon said:


> Kids are brought up in such a sanitised environment these days, it's no wonder they're all fucked up(immunity wise, if nothing else). Nothing better for kids than playing in the dirt and taking a few hard knocks, also, Antibiotics should only be for serious infections, or prevention of in special circumstances, not dished out like sweeties.





Rrog said:


> Ya. Something like 4 pounds of microbes in us and on us if you're healthy.
> 
> The more you really soak all this in, the more soil seems like the only way to go. It's all part of what it's supposed to be.


Absolutely!
I've even played with the idea that we should actually just take in some good soil when we feel ill haha
One thing's for certain: when I feel bad, I go mess with my soils and my worms, and invariably feel better after. Sure it's an uplifting activity and all that, but I like to think I'm replenishing my microherd haha


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## WeedWitchOR (Jan 28, 2017)

Actually, I read something along those lines a few years ago. Gardening = happy


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## calliandra (Jan 28, 2017)

WeedWitchOR said:


> Actually, I read something along those lines a few years ago. Gardening = happy


yes, indeed! - but it actually also makes my nose stop running and my beginning cough never actually break out....
OTOH it is also said 95% of all illness is psychosomatic


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## calliandra (Jan 29, 2017)

DesertGrow89 said:


> Hey fellas, Dr Elaine Ingham is hosting a FREE webinar this Sunday, the 29th, at 12:00. Its about restoring the soil food web, achieving higher yields, etc.
> 
> link to the webinar can be found on fb..
> 
> No affiliation


I especially loved her newest experimental results she's gathering from her farm now!
Did you get the part where she mentions the C:N ratios of the microorganisms themselves??
Like a bacteria _has _a C:N of 5?
I've never heard of this before and unfortunately Vivain misunderstood my question as C:N ratios of microbial food, so now I'm intrigued and stumped lol


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## DesertGrow89 (Jan 30, 2017)

calliandra said:


> I especially loved her newest experimental results she's gathering from her farm now!
> Did you get the part where she mentions the C:N ratios of the microorganisms themselves??
> Like a bacteria _has _a C:N of 5?
> I've never heard of this before and unfortunately Vivain misunderstood my question as C:N ratios of microbial food, so now I'm intrigued and stumped lol


No, I was up cooking up a slurry of vegetables from the fridge for the second half of the video with some couscous with cherry tomatoes, mint, and parsley and meyer-lemon garlic infused olive oil (just 1 Tablespoon minced garlic, preferably fresh put it in a cup and pour 1/2c olive oil over that which can be used immediately, I like to let it sit for atleast an hour or two at room temperature to really bring the garlic out.) 

Yeah IF I had the space I'd just be growing compost crops in a dedicated area, and would build a compost near an oak tree, maybe take the humic layer from under said tree and replace it with soil. It would be awesome to one day own a small farm that includes slim to zero inputs from outside sources (ie manures, bagged and pre-mixed this that and the other)


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## calliandra (Jan 30, 2017)

DesertGrow89 said:


> No, I was up cooking up a slurry of vegetables from the fridge for the second half of the video with some couscous with cherry tomatoes, mint, and parsley and meyer-lemon garlic infused olive oil (just 1 Tablespoon minced garlic, preferably fresh put it in a cup and pour 1/2c olive oil over that which can be used immediately, I like to let it sit for atleast an hour or two at room temperature to really bring the garlic out.)
> 
> Yeah IF I had the space I'd just be growing compost crops in a dedicated area, and would build a compost near an oak tree, maybe take the humic layer from under said tree and replace it with soil. It would be awesome to one day own a small farm that includes slim to zero inputs from outside sources (ie manures, bagged and pre-mixed this that and the other)


lolo sounds yummy  
But actually she mentioned C:N of microbes pretty much in the beginning -- it just went by so fast! I do think I need to write them anyways, so I'll ask again.

yup haha that small self-sustaining farm... mydream too!


----------



## NWHeadies (Jan 31, 2017)

Well after reading most of this thread and the no till thread my mountain organics on that other site i feel i have a ton to learn but i have scratched the surface of an everest like mountain of material that would take me a long studied life to fully understand but i have begun. Im growing yarrow and stinging nettle. The comfrey hasnt showed up yet but i have my soil mixed Gypsum azomite and malted barley just showed up along with a new bullet grinder for it. Things are preparing for a good spring season i think with my new knowledge i hope to do my best year ever.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 31, 2017)

NWHeadies said:


> Well after reading most of this thread and the no till thread my mountain organics on that other site i feel i have a ton to learn but i have scratched the surface of an everest like mountain of material that would take me a long studied life to fully understand but i have begun. Im growing yarrow and stinging nettle. The comfrey hasnt showed up yet but i have my soil mixed Gypsum azomite and malted barley just showed up along with a new bullet grinder for it. Things are preparing for a good spring season i think with my new knowledge i hope to do my best year ever.


every year is a learning experience  If you don't learn something in a year, you aren't making enough mistakes or trying new things! I know i've already learned from a few this year!


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jan 31, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> every year is a learning experience  If you don't learn something in a year, you aren't making enough mistakes or trying new things! I know i've already learned from a few this year!


It's just like riding a dirt bike. If you never lay it down (crash), you aren't improving your skills.


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## NWHeadies (Jan 31, 2017)

i havent crashed too hard but i have definetly put it in the dirt multiple times.


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## Kind Sir (Jan 31, 2017)

For plants directly after germination, when growing organic do you guys just use the base? I want to keep it simple for the plants sake..

SPM/ Malibu Compost/ Perlite & Red Lava Rock 

I was thinking about adding a touch of Neem and kelp, but then I have to let it cycle?


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## ShLUbY (Jan 31, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> For plants directly after germination, when growing organic do you guys just use the base? I want to keep it simple for the plants sake..
> 
> SPM/ Malibu Compost/ Perlite & Red Lava Rock
> 
> I was thinking about adding a touch of Neem and kelp, but then I have to let it cycle?


i would just topdress the neem and kelp and put a mulch over it. but yeah i like this for germinating plants. the seed has everything it needs to get started. so by the time you start seeing 2nd and third sets of leaves, the neem and kelp will be getting worked on by the microbes. should be good to go mate!


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## Kind Sir (Jan 31, 2017)

Good thought on the top dress. Im just going to make sure it has a lot of aeration 




ShLUbY said:


> i would just topdress the neem and kelp and put a mulch over it. but yeah i like this for germinating plants. the seed has everything it needs to get started. so by the time you start seeing 2nd and third sets of leaves, the neem and kelp will be getting worked on by the microbes. should be good to go mate!


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 1, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> Good thought on the top dress. Im just going to make sure it has a lot of aeration


what did you germ?


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## Kind Sir (Feb 2, 2017)

Bodhi - Sunshine day dream

Then an agent orange freebie from Great Lakes genetics 



ShLUbY said:


> what did you germ?


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## ShLUbY (Feb 2, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> Bodhi - Sunshine day dream
> 
> Then an agent orange freebie from Great Lakes genetics


great lakes genetics???    they stole the name i wanted to use lol bastards! 

The pics i've been seeing of that sunshine day dream on here lately.... i think you'll find a keeper in that


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## Kind Sir (Feb 2, 2017)

Yea I'm happy I went through them, so I don't have to worry about customs. It went super smooth! Yea hopefully it turns out great, I'm excited!


ShLUbY said:


> great lakes genetics???    they stole the name i wanted to use lol bastards!
> 
> The pics i've been seeing of that sunshine day dream on here lately.... i think you'll find a keeper in that


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 2, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> Yea I'm happy I went through them, so I don't have to worry about customs. It went super smooth! Yea hopefully it turns out great, I'm excited!


wow they are not far from me.... i wonder if i could just drive to them


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## DonBrennon (Feb 3, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> wow they are not far from me.... i wonder if i could just drive to them


Get over there and grab me some of Tony Greens Gorilla Bubble, Bx2 or 3 preferably, pmsl


----------



## DonBrennon (Feb 3, 2017)

Oh...........and I'm liking the SSDD so far, I've got a really early finishin pheno and the calyx's are *Chunky, *LOL. She's at day 45 now and will probably be ready in 4-5 days............I have been using far red at lights out on a 12-12 cycle, she may take longer without this, no evidence to back this up though.


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## ShLUbY (Feb 3, 2017)

DonBrennon said:


> Get over there and grab me some of Tony Greens Gorilla Bubble, Bx2 or 3 preferably, pmsl


no prob!  I can't wait to make my own gorilla IWE...


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## Kind Sir (Feb 3, 2017)

I'm going to start a journal for my SSDD and agent orange. For your base soil (SPM/compost/aeration) instead of 33% each, what if someone did like..

20-25% SPM
About 35% compost
About 40% aeration


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## ShLUbY (Feb 3, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> I'm going to start a journal for my SSDD and agent orange. For your base soil (SPM/compost/aeration) instead of 33% each, what if someone did like..
> 
> 20-25% SPM
> About 35% compost
> About 40% aeration


Fine im sure


----------



## STX.OrganicGuerilla (Feb 4, 2017)

How would one go about starting a no till pot? Im super interested in the most natural growing method possible. 
I have organic soil full of life but I'm unsure on the process of starting a "no till" in a pot. 
Worms, microbial life, cover crops like clovers, and your crop of choice (cannabis in this case), I know are all components.
Some more insight would be much appreciated!


----------



## RonBurgundysMustache (Feb 4, 2017)

STX.OrganicGuerilla said:


> How would one go about starting a no till pot? Im super interested in the most natural growing method possible.
> I have organic soil full of life but I'm unsure on the process of starting a "no till" in a pot.
> Worms, microbial life, cover crops like clovers, and your crop of choice (cannabis in this case), I know are all components.
> Some more insight would be much appreciated!


If you have the soil inoculated already, plant away then come harvest time simply leave the root ball intact and cut the recently harvested plants stalk as close to the soil as you can, now plant your new gear right next to the old stalk. Now you're No-tillin' keeping the soil food web un-disturbed. Continue 2-3 cycles for each batch. Some do it for more than that.


----------



## STX.OrganicGuerilla (Feb 4, 2017)

Ok cool.


RonBurgundysMustache said:


> If you have the soil inoculated already, plant away then come harvest time simply leave the root ball intact and cut the recently harvested plants stalk as close to the soil as you can, now plant your new gear right next to the old stalk. Now you're No-tillin' keeping the soil food web un-disturbed. Continue 2-3 cycles for each batch. Some do it for more than that.


Another question, once I have colonies of mycorrhizae on the top of the soil in my bin, should I turn the soil? Or simply let it be undisturbed until scooping to put into pots?
Also adding mulch to the tops of pots?


----------



## RonBurgundysMustache (Feb 4, 2017)

I as well have a question, more so my wife's question (she's taking the leap and starting her own little grow!). In my facility, I will have Marionberry Kush, Agent Orange, Grease Monkey, and sour banana sherbet while she will be starting her first grow with some sour diesel autos from dinafem (I know I Know). My question is: Where I'll be stirring up super soil and no tilling, I'll be letting it inoculate about two months but she wants to start sooner than that. Without letting it inoculate, say she lets it set only two weeks or not at all and uses it immediately, how will that effect the plants (autos specifically)? I have never grown autos so I for one have no clue if it may burn them or not work well but I do know we both want to keep it organic no matter what. Also, using non inoculated soil for the autos or two weeks setting, is that soil a good candidate for no till on round two or should it be put back into cans and set the proper time to inoculate? Thanks homies


----------



## RonBurgundysMustache (Feb 4, 2017)

STX.OrganicGuerilla said:


> Ok cool.
> 
> Another question, once I have colonies of mycorrhizae on the top of the soil in my bin, should I turn the soil? Or simply let it be undisturbed until scooping to put into pots?
> Also adding mulch to the tops of pots?



I turn mine only a once maybe a couple of times keeping it moist and "sweating" within the bins. I'll let it set without touching it at all, preferably three weeks to a month after the last turn of soil. Come time to potting, I mix it up a final time and fill all of my pots 2/3 with super soil and the top 1/3 with just base and that's always worked well for me. There's a million recipes and you'll see tons of variations with not just the super soil but the cold plug as well. I keep it to a minimum on the top 3rd with just base, myco, other beneficial microorganisms.


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 4, 2017)

RonBurgundysMustache said:


> I as well have a question, more so my wife's question (she's taking the leap and starting her own little grow!). In my facility, I will have Marionberry Kush, Agent Orange, Grease Monkey, and sour banana sherbet while she will be starting her first grow with some sour diesel autos from dinafem (I know I Know). My question is: Where I'll be stirring up super soil and no tilling, I'll be letting it inoculate about two months but she wants to start sooner than that. Without letting it inoculate, say she lets it set only two weeks or not at all and uses it immediately, how will that effect the plants (autos specifically)? I have never grown autos so I for one have no clue if it may burn them or not work well but I do know we both want to keep it organic no matter what. Also, using non inoculated soil for the autos or two weeks setting, is that soil a good candidate for no till on round two or should it be put back into cans and set the proper time to inoculate? Thanks homies


Hey man, good questions.

#1, with supersoil, i would bet the mix actually gets pretty warm for the first week to 10 days once it gets going. #2, it takes time for microbes to start breaking stuff down by microbial processes. so it's best used when it's been given the allotted time it needs to cycle nutrients #3 you should never put a seeding right into super soil, it's got way too much fertilizer in it. you should use just a seed starter potting mix or make your own with peat, perlite, and EWC (1 part of each) #4, most on here would not use a super soil for a no till base (many have their own reasons for this and i'm sure will chime in). It would be better to build your own base from scratch.

hope this helps


----------



## kkt3 (Feb 4, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> For plants directly after germination, when growing organic do you guys just use the base? I want to keep it simple for the plants sake..
> 
> SPM/ Malibu Compost/ Perlite & Red Lava Rock
> 
> I was thinking about adding a touch of Neem and kelp, but then I have to let it cycle?


Pattahabi shared this seedling recipe and that's what I use.

-equal parts peat moss, perlite and ewc with oyster shell flour

Last grow I mixed up enough to fill 2 solo cups, then I added an 1/4 teaspoon oyster shell flour and mixed it really good.


----------



## Kind Sir (Feb 4, 2017)

What is your soil recipe?


RonBurgundysMustache said:


> I turn mine only a once maybe a couple of times keeping it moist and "sweating" within the bins. I'll let it set without touching it at all, preferably three weeks to a month after the last turn of soil. Come time to potting, I mix it up a final time and fill all of my pots 2/3 with super soil and the top 1/3 with just base and that's always worked well for me. There's a million recipes and you'll see tons of variations with not just the super soil but the cold plug as well. I keep it to a minimum on the top 3rd with just base, myco, other beneficial microorganisms.


What


----------



## Chunky Stool (Feb 4, 2017)

kkt3 said:


> Pattahabi shared this seedling recipe and that's what I use.
> 
> -equal parts peat moss, perlite and ewc with oyster shell flour
> 
> Last grow I mixed up enough to fill 2 solo cups, then I added an 1/4 teaspoon oyster shell flour and mixed it really good.


Sounds like it would be acidic. 
I recently started seedlings in a custom soilless mix to get faster growth. So far it has worked. 
 
I'll put them in a relatively hot organic soil when they go into 5 gal cloth pots & gradually reduce synthetic nutes.


----------



## Kind Sir (Feb 4, 2017)

What about that would make it acidic? I wanted to make a soil to germinate seeds in, before I transplant into regular soil recipe. I was also thinking about just using my base soil, and add a sprinkle of oyster shell flour/crab shell meal? 



Chunky Stool said:


> Sounds like it would be acidic.
> I recently started seedlings in a custom soilless mix to get faster growth. So far it has worked.
> View attachment 3893245
> I'll put them in a relatively hot organic soil when they go into 5 gal cloth pots & gradually reduce synthetic nutes.


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 4, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> What about that would make it acidic? I wanted to make a soil to germinate seeds in, before I transplant into regular soil recipe. I was also thinking about just using my base soil, and add a sprinkle of oyster shell flour/crab shell meal?


if you mix in the OSF that will help with any acidity. i don't see why it would be acidic.


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## Chunky Stool (Feb 4, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> if you mix in the OSF that will help with any acidity. i don't see why it would be acidic.


PH of peat is 5.5 -- gotta add more than a sprinkle of OSF. 
Might be fine. For peat moss, I just use a mix that's already neutral, like promix but it's more of a personal preference I guess. Makes it easier to get a good blend when mixing a new batch of Gritty Kitty. I've also been experimenting with pre-charging gritty kitty before transplant using a starter solution that's very high in P (5-50-17). Done it three times with great results on both large and small plants.


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 4, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> PH of peat is 5.5 -- gotta add more than a sprinkle of OSF.
> Might be fine. For peat moss, I just use a mix that's already neutral, like promix but it's more of a personal preference I guess. Makes it easier to get a good blend when mixing a new batch of Gritty Kitty. I've also been experimenting with pre-charging gritty kitty before transplant using a starter solution that's very high in P (5-50-17). Done it three times with great results on both large and small plants.


i been hearing talk about the gritty kitty. what's the deal with that stuff?


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## STX.OrganicGuerilla (Feb 4, 2017)

What does this look like to you guys?


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## Chunky Stool (Feb 4, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> i been hearing talk about the gritty kitty. what's the deal with that stuff?


The latest recipe is a 4-part mix:
2 parts ProMix HP (peat, perlite, wood bits, etc)
1 part rinsed coco coir
1 part rinsed calcined clay (Special kitty all natural from WalMart)

It seems to be the sweet spot for aeration & water retention. I'm experimenting with pre-charging the entire mix vs charging the clay only. Also got a biochar experiment going, but I'm not changing the recipe without conclusive results. Working on it...


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## ShLUbY (Feb 9, 2017)

you any of you have have 90 min to watch a vid, if you haven't seen this..... She's the best!!! Cakes and Cookies!!!!!


----------



## GreenSanta (Feb 9, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> you any of you have have 90 min to watch a vid, if you haven't seen this..... She's the best!!! Cakes and Cookies!!!!!


 sweet will do when I feel better, got a nasty cold over here. the old indoor organic garden is killing it though, dont think I have ever yielded so much resin, and so few pests ...not perfect but thats what makes it perfect. I dont mean to brag but I smoke pretty damn good weed these days. OK, I do mean to brag. Sorry hey!


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 9, 2017)

GreenSanta said:


> sweet will do when I feel better, got a nasty cold over here. the old indoor organic garden is killing it though, dont think I have ever yielded so much resin, and so few pests ...not perfect but thats what makes it perfect. I dont mean to brag but I smoke pretty damn good weed these days. OK, I do mean to brag. Sorry hey!


no need to be modest! I sure as hell am not. I'm tired of turning people's herb down because it's inferior... they all call me a snob.... i just laugh at them hahahah. and they can all tell the difference too... which is even better


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## GreenSanta (Feb 9, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> no need to be modest! I sure as hell am not. I'm tired of turning people's herb down because it's inferior... they all call me a snob.... i just laugh at them hahahah. and they can all tell the difference too... which is even better


yes I try not to be rude. For me its mostly that I know that ''MOST'' growers spray stuff, to some extent, whether organic or not. I know from my first year growing that neem can truly affect the taste so I have always stayed away since. I grow perpetual, I don't ever spray, and, the flowers are beautiful and plentiful, so why bother? other growers really hate that snobbishness though, too bad so sad.


----------



## shamanspirit (Feb 10, 2017)

Very helpful thread


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## DonBrennon (Feb 10, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> you any of you have have 90 min to watch a vid, if you haven't seen this..... She's the best!!! Cakes and Cookies!!!!!


Hahaha, when I first found this vid, I used to play it to fall a-sleep to at nights, LOL Her enthusiasm about the subject is undeniable and her 'shrill' voice reminds me very much of my mother, although the accent is quite different. My Mom like baking cakes too, LOL


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## ShLUbY (Feb 10, 2017)

DonBrennon said:


> Hahaha, when I first found this vid, I used to play it to fall a-sleep to at nights, LOL Her enthusiasm about the subject is undeniable and her 'shrill' voice reminds me very much of my mother, although the accent is quite different. My Mom like baking cakes too, LOL


i listened to a fucking killer segment on composting by her today, i posted it on GMM's Compost thread. lots of killer information in that one. she said you should be finishing your compost in 21-28 days.... HOLY SHIT. I can't wait to try it out with her recipe. the method just makes soooo much sense. I can't wait to go through more of the lectures... theres a shit ton of them and interviews on youtube.


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## Chunky Stool (Feb 11, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> i listened to a fucking killer segment on composting by her today, i posted it on GMM's Compost thread. lots of killer information in that one. she said you should be finishing your compost in 21-28 days.... HOLY SHIT. I can't wait to try it out with her recipe. the method just makes soooo much sense. I can't wait to go through more of the lectures... theres a shit ton of them and interviews on youtube.


21 - 28 days? 
That's funny. 
I put kitchen scraps in my compost barrel all year long. I just dumped it on the garden a few weeks ago, but my process is flawed. The fresher stuff has not decomposed much due to colder temps. Since I tumble it every once in awhile, it was all mixed together & impossible to separate old from new. 
I said "screw it" & just dumped the entire barrel on my garden, then covered it with dirt from the recycle pile. 
Apparently there are critters that like to eat fresh compost, because they dug it up several nights in a row. 
I also put bone meal on it, so my dogs also joined in on the *big stinky garden feast*. (Ended with both of them being sick -- different thread.)


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## ShLUbY (Feb 11, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> 21 - 28 days?
> That's funny.
> I put kitchen scraps in my compost barrel all year long. I just dumped it on the garden a few weeks ago, but my process is flawed. The fresher stuff has not decomposed much due to colder temps. Since I tumble it every once in awhile, it was all mixed together & impossible to separate old from new.
> I said "screw it" & just dumped the entire barrel on my garden, then covered it with dirt from the recycle pile.
> ...


i have a couple compost barrels but shit just goes anerobic in them. they suck for composting. just a marketing scheme to make people feel good about trying to compost IMO. proper composting requires air to make the process aerobic. when you make a proper thermophillic compost (thermo to kill seeds and pathogens), the pile gets hot in the center, and the O2 levels drop dramatically. so the pile must be turned when it hits those hot 150-160deg. temperatures. basically turned inside out, and when it heats up that high again, it should be turned one more time. after like 18 days or something the temp should start coming back down, and the compost should be finishing over the next 10-14 days. 

My composters make great soil mixing devices though! so that was a bonus lol


----------



## Chunky Stool (Feb 11, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> i have a couple compost barrels but shit just goes anerobic in them. they suck for composting. just a marketing scheme to make people feel good about trying to compost IMO. proper composting requires air to make the process aerobic. when you make a proper thermophillic compost (thermo to kill seeds and pathogens), the pile gets hot in the center, and the O2 levels drop dramatically. so the pile must be turned when it hits those hot 150-160deg. temperatures. basically turned inside out, and when it heats up that high again, it should be turned one more time. after like 18 days or something the temp should start coming back down, and the compost should be finishing over the next 10-14 days.
> 
> My composters make great soil mixing devices though! so that was a bonus lol


Hey, my compost barrel is the bee's knees; perfect in every way! 
 
OK, I lied. The thing is a piece of shit. Seriously. Worthless piece of plastic shit on a shitty plastic frame! 
Highly not recommended. 
Tried to move it while full and the thing almost fell apart. I gave up and just used a wheelbarrow & shovel. 
I should have brought my "Tilterator" from the other house when we moved. That thing was awesome & didn't take up much space at all. 
The link on google doesn't work anymore. Dang. 
Basically it had notched removable front & back panels. Sides were connected with PVC pipe. Just pull the panels, rotate it, replace one panel, move compost over, replace other panel. EZPZ


----------



## Jubilant (Feb 11, 2017)

I can't wait to go over more of Elaine's stuff, she really gets me off about soil! Her knowledge is so comprehensive and just plan awesome. I can just listen to her talk about it all day.

Im off to go find the video @ShLUbY was talking about!


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## elkamino (Feb 11, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Basically it had notched removable front & back panels. Sides were connected with PVC pipe. Just pull the panels, rotate it, replace one panel, move compost over, replace other panel. EZPZ


I live in a shitty little apartment now and don't compost but when I lived in my home in Montana I we did the same, just with pallets as panels (yes clean ones lol). I had two bays, each the size of pallets or 3' x 3' x 3', next to each other. T-posts and a fenced corner held them upright, and we just stacked select yard waste/scraps/fallen apples/ newspaper/bones/etc for awhile on one side, then turn to the other. If it went a while without turning some (like too many leaves stacked or grass in 1 clump) would go anaerobic but whatever, the rest was crazy full of already-there red wigglers, sometimes like 50% of the mass would be worms! I'd just turn it to the other side, mixing loam with worm orgies and anaerobic stanky rottenness and it would all work out like a boss, on its own. A third bay would have made it ideal and sometimes I'd move one bay to the other side for various reasons. Always worked out great, we always had some compost we could use and didn't really think about it. No way were we getting compost in 3 weeks tho! Perhaps Montana soil is cooler than Dr Ingham's, or whatever, it was no muss no fuss and I miss growing shit outside...


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## Chunky Stool (Feb 11, 2017)

elkamino said:


> I live in a shitty little apartment now and don't compost but when I lived in my home in Montana I we did the same, just with pallets as panels (yes clean ones lol). I had two bays, each the size of pallets or 3' x 3' x 3', next to each other. T-posts and a fenced corner held them upright, and we just stacked select yard waste/scraps/fallen apples/ newspaper/bones/etc for awhile on one side, then turn to the other. If it went a while without turning some (like too many leaves stacked or grass in 1 clump) would go anaerobic but whatever, the rest was crazy full of already-there red wigglers, sometimes like 50% of the mass would be worms! I'd just turn it to the other side, mixing loam with worm orgies and anaerobic stanky rottenness and it would all work out like a boss, on its own. A third bay would have made it ideal and sometimes I'd move one bay to the other side for various reasons. Always worked out great, we always had some compost we could use and didn't really think about it. No way were we getting compost in 3 weeks tho! Perhaps Montana soil is cooler than Dr Ingham's, or whatever, it was no muss no fuss and I miss growing shit outside...


I'm going to try to find a couple of these on ebay. It was very efficient and easy to use. 
http://cjonline.com/stories/033107/hom_159882891.shtml#.WJ9sbPkrLDc


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## bizfactory (Feb 11, 2017)

Ninja Fruit! day 33. It's in 5 gallons of recycled soil with a blumat.


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## ShLUbY (Feb 11, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Ninja Fruit! day 33. It's in 5 gallons of recycled soil with a blumat.


so shiney and pretty purples  beautiful stuff man.


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## bizfactory (Feb 11, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> so shiney and pretty purples  beautiful stuff man.


Thanks...can you actually see the pic on RIU or do you have to go to imgur to see it? It's not showing up for me and I'm wondering if it's the same for everyone else too.


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## ShLUbY (Feb 11, 2017)

when i hit the reply link, it shows it in the text field.


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## HayesHamlet (Feb 12, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Anyone delt with broad mites organically?


I used Azasol every 3 days in a greenhouse. Applied using an atomizer/fogger. I started noticing them 3rd week of flower and they were gone by the 5th week. Also used nematodes in the soil. Nematodes from Arbico.


----------



## Kind Sir (Feb 13, 2017)

So how long is the minimum amount of time it takes for soil to cycle? I have some Bodhi that I want to get going ASAP, but I just started cycling this weekend.

I normally start in solo cups, but what if I just used my base soil (SPM/Perlite/Malibu Compost) and had them in 1 gallon pots while my soil cycles? Could the plants thrive off just the base soil, could topdress some kelp/Neem or whatever?

@greasemonkeymann

This is what's in my soil

Ahimsa Neem cake
Kelp meal
Fish bone meal
Crab shell meal
Oyster shell flour
Glacial rock dust


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## Wetdog (Feb 13, 2017)

Why not just get a small bag of seed starting mix and some solo cups with drainage holes?

By the time they are ready to xplant, the soil will be done -> 3 or 4 sets of leaves.

Wet


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## Chunky Stool (Feb 13, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> So how long is the minimum amount of time it takes for soil to cycle? I have some Bodhi that I want to get going ASAP, but I just started cycling this weekend.
> 
> I normally start in solo cups, but what if I just used my base soil (SPM/Perlite/Malibu Compost) and had them in 1 gallon pots while my soil cycles? Could the plants thrive off just the base soil, could topdress some kelp/Neem or whatever?
> 
> ...


No yak hair?


----------



## Kind Sir (Feb 13, 2017)

Sure maybe I'll just do that, I have a bag of loose promix soil I might use. 



Wetdog said:


> Why not just get a small bag of seed starting mix and some solo cups with drainage holes?
> 
> By the time they are ready to xplant, the soil will be done -> 3 or 4 sets of leaves.
> 
> Wet


----------



## Kind Sir (Feb 13, 2017)

Not sure what that is! 
( ;



( ;


Chunky Stool said:


> No yak hair?


W


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## Chunky Stool (Feb 13, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> Not sure what that is!
> ( ;
> 
> 
> ...


It's the secret ingredient! All I need now is a graphic artist to draw some stoney shit & I'll make a fortune! 
Pass the word & I'll give you a cut...


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## Chunky Stool (Feb 13, 2017)

I'm just fucking around. 
It cracks me up when recipes are specific like "Indonesian bat guano" or "Peruvian seabird guano".
As if country of origin makes a difference...


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## Kind Sir (Feb 13, 2017)

Haha I know you're joking, I know what you're saying man! I don't have yak hair, but man one of my cats has hair so soft it's worthy of making a rap song about! 



Chunky Stool said:


> I'm just fucking around.
> It cracks me up when recipes are specific like "Indonesian bat guano" or "Peruvian seabird guano".
> As if country of origin makes a difference...


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## ShLUbY (Feb 13, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> So how long is the minimum amount of time it takes for soil to cycle? I have some Bodhi that I want to get going ASAP, but I just started cycling this weekend.
> 
> I normally start in solo cups, but what if I just used my base soil (SPM/Perlite/Malibu Compost) and had them in 1 gallon pots while my soil cycles? Could the plants thrive off just the base soil, could topdress some kelp/Neem or whatever?
> 
> ...


if you add oyster and crab into the base mix, you'll probably be fine so you can help fight the ph and keep it in check. when the mix starts to get acidic, those things will start to dissolve and help regulate ph (acid solutions dissolve the calcium).

i would not start the seeds in the 1 gallons unless you're really watching the moisture content of the soil. just take a gallon of base and add a heaping tablespoon of OSF and crab meal to it and mix and rock and roll as normal in your solos


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## Kind Sir (Feb 13, 2017)

Thank you for telling me about the OSF/Crab meal dissolving when the soil gets acidic, that's awesome to know!! I'll just put them in solo cups like normal, and use my base with the OSF/crab meal. 

I just added my amendments this weekend, so they just started cycling. If I started them in solo cups now, you think I could keep them in there until my soil is ready? What would you do? 

I'm just getting the hang of making my own soils, so not sure what the best move would be yet! Thanks man 



ShLUbY said:


> if you add oyster and crab into the base mix, you'll probably be fine so you can help fight the ph and keep it in check. when the mix starts to get acidic, those things will start to dissolve and help regulate ph (acid solutions dissolve the calcium).
> 
> i would not start the seeds in the 1 gallons unless you're really watching the moisture content of the soil. just take a gallon of base and add a heaping tablespoon of OSF and crab meal to it and mix and rock and roll as normal in your solos


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## ShLUbY (Feb 13, 2017)

Kind Sir said:


> Thank you for telling me about the OSF/Crab meal dissolving when the soil gets acidic, that's awesome to know!! I'll just put them in solo cups like normal, and use my base with the OSF/crab meal.
> 
> I just added my amendments this weekend, so they just started cycling. If I started them in solo cups now, you think I could keep them in there until my soil is ready? What would you do?
> 
> I'm just getting the hang of making my own soils, so not sure what the best move would be yet! Thanks man


i just listen to the plants man. hard to say if a solo will be enough room for a month of growth...... i doubt it though!


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## Mohican (Feb 13, 2017)

I have seen people go a long time in solos.


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## ShLUbY (Feb 13, 2017)

Mohican said:


> I have seen people go a long time in solos.


with organics though? i have no doubt you could with bottle fed nutes because you're giving it what it needs, but with organics trying to make it go a long time in a solo seems.... pardon my pun, fruitless 

my buddy does the canna A and canna B mixture, and he grows massive plants in like 2 gals of coco coir medium and he uses blumats as the watering system. pretty impressive results, but the herb itself is not all that impressive, it's better than most of the alternatives out there though lol.


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## Chronikool (Feb 14, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> with organics though? i have no doubt you could with bottle fed nutes because you're giving it what it needs, but with organics trying to make it go a long time in a solo seems.... pardon my pun, fruitless
> 
> my buddy does the canna A and canna B mixture, and he grows massive plants in like 2 gals of coco coir medium and he uses blumats as the watering system. pretty impressive results, but the herb itself is not all that impressive, it's better than most of the alternatives out there though lol.


Ive done a solo cup start to finish...wormz in cups, teas, granular top dresses...it workz... just needz more attention


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## ShLUbY (Feb 14, 2017)

Chronikool said:


> Ive done a solo cup start to finish...wormz in cups, teas, granular top dresses...it workz... just needz more attention


lol that sounds like a fun time


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## Chronikool (Feb 26, 2017)

Welcome back ROLLITUP....


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## ShLUbY (Feb 26, 2017)

look at all that beautiful hyphae and all those conidiophores!!! WOOH! fungi are cool! great stuff as usual @Chronikool


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## GreenSanta (Feb 27, 2017)

sooo... Ive got this experimental half ass worm form that is a total hit and miss, it's right on the ground so the worms are free to go into my outdoor garden if they choose to, I think my veggie garden is gonna kick ass this year lol.

anyway, I still produce a nice wormcasting/compost mix,

I just scooped a bunch and some of the native sandi soil got mixed with it but its mostly worm castings. in that area of the worm farm, I remember trowing a couple dead chickens, chicken shit, coffee ground, horse shit, egg shell ... anything I could find for free locally

I mixed that stuff with

a fair bit of crushed oyster shell
perlite
vermiculite
half ass crushed lava rock
useless small handfull of magnesium

its pretty much wormcastings/compost/aeration

Ive got a couple plant in 7 gallons with that mix and a few in veg in small 2 gallon pots, tell me I am not going to regret this lol!! I ran out of soil and with all the snow we get here and stuff I had to improvise something quick, if it doesnt work that well I will simply use it to top dress. what you guys think?


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## GreenSanta (Feb 28, 2017)

This morning I woke up and the plants I transplanted into the wormcastings/compost mix with -vermiculite perlite lavarocks oyster shell...- were all droopy, I was like fuck, the ph must have been right out of wack. The thing is I dont ph stuff, I have a great soil ph meter but I have used only a couple of times I could not even calibrate the thing yesterday I think my ph 4 and ph7 mix were out of wack.

Anyway, I was thinking not much I can do, it will be fine to top dress I am sure. If not now, months from now it will.

Well I am happy to report that tonight I walked into the flower room (yes I transplant and flower the same day, ... small space!) and the few plants that were in the new mix looked fine!! I think the reason why they were droopy was that the soil was pretty much frozen when I transplanted them. All I can think of. Anyway, I think everything is gonna be fine I cant wait to report and show how these plants turn out because this is the most hilly billy soil mix ever.


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## hillbill (Mar 4, 2017)

GreenSanta said:


> This morning I woke up and the plants I transplanted into the wormcastings/compost mix with -vermiculite perlite lavarocks oyster shell...- were all droopy, I was like fuck, the ph must have been right out of wack. The thing is I dont ph stuff, I have a great soil ph meter but I have used only a couple of times I could not even calibrate the thing yesterday I think my ph 4 and ph7 mix were out of wack.
> 
> Anyway, I was thinking not much I can do, it will be fine to top dress I am sure. If not now, months from now it will.
> 
> Well I am happy to report that tonight I walked into the flower room (yes I transplant and flower the same day, ... small space!) and the few plants that were in the new mix looked fine!! I think the reason why they were droopy was that the soil was pretty much frozen when I transplanted them. All I can think of. Anyway, I think everything is gonna be fine I cant wait to report and show how these plants turn out because this is the most hilly billy soil mix ever.


My hillbill mix could be more hilly billy seein' that 8/10 letters match! 
I transplant at about 2 weeks old and try to a week or so before flower. But I have small tents and I do what works. Everything is perpetual on this hill.

If I keep my aeration at 50% or so, things are just easier. My plants use more water with that kind of loose mix also. Organic in 2 to 3 gallons.


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## Chronikool (Mar 4, 2017)




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## frankslan (Mar 10, 2017)

thinking of doing a no till in a 4 by 4. With maybe two 40 gal totes Sip

Anyone use sip and no till how did it work out?

I wont be able to move the tubes out of the 4 by 4 so will I be able to plant in the same soil right after?


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## GreenSanta (Mar 11, 2017)

frankslan said:


> thinking of doing a no till in a 4 by 4. With maybe two 40 gal totes Sip
> 
> Anyone use sip and no till how did it work out?
> 
> I wont be able to move the tubes out of the 4 by 4 so will I be able to plant in the same soil right after?


only use straight water in your reservoir, only water from the top at transplant ( when using plastic mulch, I have no experience with SIP/living mulch combo) I am on my 4th 5th and 6th run in 3 SIPs I have. the oldest has been in the grow room for a whole year. I have been pulling the stalks and re-amending, but 90% of the original soil is still there...


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## GroDank101 (Mar 12, 2017)

I have alfalfa meal, kelp meal, organic neem meal, hi cal lime, bokashi bran, azomite, gypsum, Earthworm castings, sphagnum peat moss, pumice and rice hulls, and endo mychorrizae. Should I add fish bone meal or will I be fine without it? I am waiting on an N, P, K soil test that will tell me how hot the soil is.


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## AllDayToker (Mar 16, 2017)

Hey everyone! Long time no see. I have ran into a situation that I am stumped about. On my yield on a recent harvest. I'm hoping someone can clear things up for me because I feel like I'm failing really hard right now haha.

I ran 3 Kosher Kush plants a couple months back from seed. All three with different phenotypes. They got a short veg time in some soil I mixed up myself. They were in 3 gallon smart pots. They were topped once. I didn't expect much from them with a short veg time but ended up with an average of an ounce per plant. Which I was relatively happy about because I expected much less.

The last run I did was the same three different phenotypes, all cuts I took from the originals. The differences from this run and the first are as followed; I used a different soil mix (plants looked healthier then previous harvest during veg and flower.) I also placed a scrog screen above the plants and were given longer veg time to help fill the scrog screen. Lastly, they were placed in 10 gallon smart pots instead of the 3's.

With all of these upgrades I would of imagined a larger jump in a yield then I am currently estimating. I don't have the final dry weight yet but if I compare wet weight and percent return after dry from the previous harvest and this one, I am only seeing an increase of 1 to 1 1/4 ounces per plant.

Am I missing something or is this a normal increase?

If you want anymore information let me know!

ADT


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## GreenSanta (Mar 16, 2017)

AllDayToker said:


> Hey everyone! Long time no see. I have ran into a situation that I am stumped about. On my yield on a recent harvest. I'm hoping someone can clear things up for me because I feel like I'm failing really hard right now haha.
> 
> I ran 3 Kosher Kush plants a couple months back from seed. All three with different phenotypes. They got a short veg time in some soil I mixed up myself. They were in 3 gallon smart pots. They were topped once. I didn't expect much from them with a short veg time but ended up with an average of an ounce per plant. Which I was relatively happy about because I expected much less.
> 
> ...


too many variables, I can tell you that if you are trying to do any sort of water only, 3 gallons is def. too small. The next thing is if somehow you did so well in the 3 gals, the yield is mostly dependent on wattage , veg time, genetics ...

Ive always said the bigger the pots the better the yields and quality, but if you are not doing no till and simply doing mostly recycled organics, for whatever reason, sometimes I get my biggest yields out of 7 gallon pots and I think if I can achieve this in 7 gals, why use 10s! 

Anyway, so many variables... In your context I d say you need to do more runs to find out wtf happened. I am starting to yield more than ever and it has more to do with veg time, training, and luck?


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## ShLUbY (Mar 16, 2017)

GreenSanta said:


> too many variables, I can tell you that if you are trying to do any sort of water only, 3 gallons is def. too small. The next thing is if somehow you did so well in the 3 gals, the yield is mostly dependent on wattage , veg time, genetics ...
> 
> Ive always said the bigger the pots the better the yields and quality, but if you are not doing no till and simply doing mostly recycled organics, for whatever reason, sometimes I get my biggest yields out of 7 gallon pots and I think if I can achieve this in 7 gals, why use 10s!
> 
> Anyway, so many variables... In your context I d say you need to do more runs to find out wtf happened. I am starting to yield more than ever and it has more to do with veg time, training, and luck?


i'm actually doing a container test right now in my room. i have a 7 gal plastic, a 5 gal plastic, 7 gal fabric, and 10 gal fabric. all 4 the same straight from the same batch of cuts and all went in the same size when transplanted into these containers. I've been posting updates in my thread. so far the 5 gal plastic and the 7 gal fab look the best to me... the 7 gal plastic is doing the worst but i think that's cause i had the blumat dialed in too moist of a setting. the 10 gal fab also looks good, but i don't see much of a difference between the 7 and 10 gal fabs... i guess we'll see when the results come in!


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## GreenSanta (Mar 16, 2017)

Interesting experiment, looks like you ll have to start over because you ve already altered the constancy. Personally, I will never use smart pots again. I don't care what the claims are, they are flimsy, they get nasty, increase RH in the room... for me it's plastic until I can built my dream grow room with sub irrigated raised beds. I do like the freedom to move your pots around though, for me I am trying to figure out which is the best in my context, the 7s or the 10s. I like that the 10s give me room for mulching if I have time or mulch to play with, I rarely actually fill the 10s to the top. Anyway, Ive yielded almost 8 oz out of a 7 gallons and ever since Ive been thinking I should really only use 7s. Yet 2/3 of my room have 10s right now haha.


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## Mohican (Mar 16, 2017)

I have found that fabric is better in wetter situations and plastic is better in drier conditions.


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## NaturalFarmer (Mar 17, 2017)




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## AllDayToker (Mar 17, 2017)

GreenSanta, thank you for the response. I don't know if you exactly understand what I'm asking. Let me try to put things a little more cut and dry.

One plant was grown in a 3 gallon pot. Fed occasional teas when needed. Top once, short veg time. My own recycled soil blend that has been re amended multiple times over the past. End yield 1 ounce.

Next round I grew a cut from the previous plant but this time I increased the pot size to 10 gallons. Again fed occasional teas. Topped more and gave longer veg due to adding a SCROG screen and being in a larger pot. I also switch from my recycled soil blend to a blend from build a soil. Which the plants acted like they enjoyed because they were much healthier and I didn't have to feed as often. End yield estimate is 2 to 2 1/4 ounces.

All other factors, including amount watered, light used, room temps and humidity, all were the same. Changing factors were amount fed, soil mix, pot size, additional topping and veg, as well as the addition of the scrog screen.

I've grown for a while, hundreds of plants, many different techniques. I was also taught similar with the bigger, roots bigger fruits, methods. 

I'm not questioning my skills or ability. My knowledge is pretty on point as well. I'm just really stumped that I made 3 separate upgrades that will definitely increase yield but only doubling the yield seems low.


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## ShLUbY (Mar 17, 2017)

AllDayToker said:


> GreenSanta, thank you for the response. I don't know if you exactly understand what I'm asking. Let me try to put things a little more cut and dry.
> 
> One plant was grown in a 3 gallon pot. Fed occasional teas when needed. Top once, short veg time. My own recycled soil blend that has been re amended multiple times over the past. End yield 1 ounce.
> 
> ...


yeah seems low to me because if i'm not getting at least 4 oz per plant i'm wondering what went wrong with the grow.... my veg time is around 8-10 wks and generally i put them no taller than 18-24" you should be able to do a lb+ on 600watts of power (im sure strain depending but most strains i'd say this is true.) when i transplant before flower, i always make sure to give _at least_ 2-3 weeks to develop and grow into their new pot. i've noticed much better growth in the first couple weeks of flower when doing so.


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## AllDayToker (Mar 17, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah seems low to me because if i'm not getting at least 4 oz per plant i'm wondering what went wrong with the grow.... my veg time is around 8-10 wks and generally i put them no taller than 18-24" you should be able to do a lb+ on 600watts of power (im sure strain depending but most strains i'd say this is true.) when i transplant before flower, i always make sure to give _at least_ 2-3 weeks to develop and grow into their new pot. i've noticed much better growth in the first couple weeks of flower when doing so.


I'm the exact same way. I figured if I would get at least 4 ounces each I would be fine. They say Kosher Kush isn't super high yielder but just the jump in pot sizes should of got me more then what I got, let alone the screen added.

I'm just really stumped. I don't really know what to change or go from here because I was actually very pleased with this entire run. I thought it was one of my best runs health wise. Then I get this crap lol.

Think this next run I'll just watch things a little more carefully. Start logging what I do each day and how they look. Back to basics.


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## NaturalFarmer (Mar 17, 2017)

Do you have the makeup of the mix you bought? @AllDayToker
Any deficiency toward the end?


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## genuity (Mar 17, 2017)

AllDayToker said:


> I'm the exact same way. I figured if I would get at least 4 ounces each I would be fine. They say Kosher Kush isn't super high yielder but just the jump in pot sizes should of got me more then what I got, let alone the screen added.
> 
> I'm just really stumped. I don't really know what to change or go from here because I was actually very pleased with this entire run. I thought it was one of my best runs health wise. Then I get this crap lol.
> 
> Think this next run I'll just watch things a little more carefully. Start logging what I do each day and how they look. Back to basics.


Sounds like it's just the first run of the soil..

What did you go with?
Malibu blend?
Coots mix?

Both are on the weak side of things..


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## AllDayToker (Mar 17, 2017)

NaturalFarmer said:


> Do you have the makeup of the mix you bought? @AllDayToker
> Any deficiency toward the end?





genuity said:


> Sounds like it's just the first run of the soil..
> 
> What did you go with?
> Malibu blend?
> ...


I used just their classic oly mountain mix. Here is the link!

https://buildasoil.com/collections/frontpage/products/living-organic-soil


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## ShLUbY (Mar 17, 2017)

AllDayToker said:


> I used just their classic oly mountain mix. Here is the link!
> 
> https://buildasoil.com/collections/frontpage/products/living-organic-soil


i'll give my .02c. IME, rice hulls really stink for aeration. they're too small _and_ they just saturate too easily in these mixes, so you really only ended up having drainage material ~22% in your mix. this greatly reduces air pockets in the soil.

secondly... this is just an opinion (as i've built this mix myself rather than bought it)... but that nutrient mix in particular I have found to be shy in K... I think cal phos (0-3-0) and greensand (0-0-7) would do a lot of justice in that mix and really help round out the nutrient ratios. remember NPK #s are based on % weight by volume. So you have kelp ~ 0-0-1 (and kelp is really light in weight so that 1% does not represent very much), crab meal which is ~4-3-0, again no K, and Neem which is ~5-1-2.

so you have lots of N, medium amount of P, and low amount of K. and your most heavy ingredient by far is the neem, which has more N than the other two combined. it's just out of balance IMO. add the cal phos and greensand and you get a more balanced ratio. also the cal phos would allow you to reduce the amount of gypsum and OSF to 1/2cup per cuft.

again just my thoughts about that particular mix from growing in my own blend of it and adding a thing or two along the way.


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## ShLUbY (Mar 17, 2017)

GreenSanta said:


> Interesting experiment, looks like you ll have to start over because you ve already altered the constancy. Personally, I will never use smart pots again. I don't care what the claims are, they are flimsy, they get nasty, increase RH in the room... for me it's plastic until I can built my dream grow room with sub irrigated raised beds. I do like the freedom to move your pots around though, for me I am trying to figure out which is the best in my context, the 7s or the 10s. I like that the 10s give me room for mulching if I have time or mulch to play with, I rarely actually fill the 10s to the top. Anyway, Ive yielded almost 8 oz out of a 7 gallons and ever since Ive been thinking I should really only use 7s. Yet 2/3 of my room have 10s right now haha.


i'll start again sometime. for now i'll just ignore the results of the 7 gal and compare the other three. still something to learn from what's been unaffected


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## AllDayToker (Mar 17, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> i'll give my .02c. IME, rice hulls really stink for aeration. they're too small _and_ they just saturate too easily in these mixes, so you really only ended up having drainage material ~22% in your mix. this greatly reduces air pockets in the soil.
> 
> secondly... this is just an opinion (as i've built this mix myself rather than bought it)... but that nutrient mix in particular I have found to be shy in K... I think cal phos (0-3-0) and greensand (0-0-7) would do a lot of justice in that mix and really help round out the nutrient ratios. remember NPK #s are based on % weight by volume. So you have kelp ~ 0-0-1 (and kelp is really light in weight so that 1% does not represent very much), crab meal which is ~4-3-0, again no K, and Neem which is ~5-1-2.
> 
> ...



Alright thanks for the insight. I also top dress with some organic stuff and it's 2-5-3 once they stop stretching and start flowering.

So how do you think I should reamend this soil? Might as well mix up a more balanced batch of soil while I have the chance.


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## hillbill (Mar 17, 2017)

Good K sources include kmag(sulpomag), wood ashes and molasses. You may have to wait a while for K in greensand to work. Alfalfa meal is 3-1-2.


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## ShLUbY (Mar 17, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Good K sources include kmag(sulpomag), wood ashes and molasses. You may have to wait a while for K in greensand to work. Alfalfa meal is 3-1-2.


yeah but alfalfa also container more N and there's already plenty of N in that mix... plus it's very light in weight so 2% of something light, is hardly anything at all! when you wanna build a lot of something, it takes a lot to assemble it! the greensand, langbeinite would be a more long term effect (gotta watch the langbeinite though)

ashes would be short term feeding when incorporated into the mix??? probably pretty soluable...?? just guessing.


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## Mohican (Mar 17, 2017)

Alfalfa also has plant hormones that stunt growth.

If you ever need to oxygenate the soil, mix some dilute H2O2 in with your water.


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## hillbill (Mar 17, 2017)

Alfalfa is magic.


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## frankslan (Mar 18, 2017)

should I add fish bone meal to the basic BAS coot recipe?


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## hillbill (Mar 18, 2017)

I switched to fish bone meal from Indonesian Bat Guano and it works every bit as well. I used guano for 7 years. Got mine kelp-4-less on eBay,6-20-0. The only negative is that it smells but that goes away after mixing. Used fish meal for years and this smells the same. Excellent results!


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## Mohican (Mar 18, 2017)

Kelp is magic!


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## hillbill (Mar 18, 2017)

Yes it is and Growco hydroponics always has a great deal on 5 pound bags.


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## mr. childs (Mar 19, 2017)

Mohican said:


> Alfalfa also has plant hormones that stunt growth.


i always thought of the opposite, i thought one of the sources tria can be derived from is alfalfa isnt it? stuff just reeks when you use it for teas though...


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## ShLUbY (Mar 19, 2017)

hillbill said:


> I switched to fish bone meal from Indonesian Bat Guano and it works every bit as well. I used guano for 7 years. Got mine kelp-4-less on eBay,6-20-0. The only negative is that it smells but that goes away after mixing. Used fish meal for years and this smells the same. Excellent results!


Yeah the good fishbone meal smells a lot compare to the lower quality stuff (like DTE brand)


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## WitchDoctor (Mar 19, 2017)

32 30 gallon pot mix

Girls scout cookies fematized
Fluxing all plants
30 gallon smart pots

Base mix:
30 CF peats moss
30 CF rice hulls
32 CF worm castings
10 gallons aloe vera juice

Agriculture Tumbler peats moss and aloe vera overnight to completely hydrate peats moss...Add remaining base mix...

Amendments:
150 lbs rabbit manure
20 lbs afalpha
100 lbs 6 malt barley
20 lbs kelp meal
30 lbs crab meal
40 lbs neem meal
50 lbs basalt powder
50 lbs glacier rock powder

What do you all think???


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 19, 2017)

hillbill said:


> I switched to fish bone meal from Indonesian Bat Guano and it works every bit as well. I used guano for 7 years. Got mine kelp-4-less on eBay,6-20-0. The only negative is that it smells but that goes away after mixing. Used fish meal for years and this smells the same. Excellent results!


I've still got 10 lbs of Indonesian bat guano (0-7-0) but when it's gone, I'll look at fish bone meal. I also really dig Peruvian seabird guano (11-12-0). Works GREAT in nutrient teas. Plants can't get enough of the stuff! 
During flower I use half strength doses of both types of guano, plus K2SO4 & humic acid. Totally kicks ass!


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## AllDayToker (Mar 20, 2017)

Hey so I posted up a few days back with my recent run and it seemed like the problem was it was just a light soil.

I'm hoping to get some stuff ordered so by the time I'm finished chopping all my amendments are here and I can beef up my soil mix. What would you recommend adding? I have some things on hand, anything else I can order.

They also sell a re amending package on build a soil for the soil but if it was light before I'm guessing that wouldn't work well.


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 20, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Alfalfa is magic.


So is kelp.


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## ShLUbY (Mar 20, 2017)

AllDayToker said:


> Hey so I posted up a few days back with my recent run and it seemed like the problem was it was just a light soil.
> 
> I'm hoping to get some stuff ordered so by the time I'm finished chopping all my amendments are here and I can beef up my soil mix. What would you recommend adding? I have some things on hand, anything else I can order.
> 
> They also sell a re amending package on build a soil for the soil but if it was light before I'm guessing that wouldn't work well.


well i'd go with something like a greensand and calphos as mentioned before.... and then if you want to get the amendment pack from them... i'd just add those new ingredients at 1/2c per cuft and give it a go.... experimentation is the only way to really find out 

i'm going through the same kinda thing as you, except i was seeing deficiencies at week 3 and 4 of flower... i think it was the down to earth amendments and have since switched every single product out for another brand. we'll see how this next run fairs....


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 20, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> well i'd go with something like a greensand and calphos as mentioned before.... and then if you want to get the amendment pack from them... i'd just add those new ingredients at 1/2c per cuft and give it a go.... experimentation is the only way to really find out
> 
> i'm going through the same kinda thing as you, except i was seeing deficiencies at week 3 and 4 of flower... i think it was the down to earth amendments and have since switched every single product out for another brand. we'll see how this next run fairs....


You don't like down to earth products? I've used a bunch of their stuff with no problems...


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## ShLUbY (Mar 20, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> You don't like down to earth products? I've used a bunch of their stuff with no problems...


what rates are you using them at? my soil Ph and all that is fine, and i've been having deficiencies with N, and K mostly (the K i blame on lack of it in the recipe). I've been having to add amendments to the mix at transplant so they'll be ready for the plant weeks down the road.... but the plants just seem to be chewing through the nutrients! I'm not surprised either... the root balls are solid roots through the entire pot...


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 20, 2017)

ShLUbY said:


> what rates are you using them at? my soil Ph and all that is fine, and i've been having deficiencies with N, and K mostly (the K i blame on lack of it in the recipe). I've been having to add amendments to the mix at transplant so they'll be ready for the plant weeks down the road.... but the plants just seem to be chewing through the nutrients! I'm not surprised either... the root balls are solid roots through the entire pot...


I usually just use the recommendation on the box. They make a lot of stuff. Right now I've got their langbeinite, azomite, humic acid, oyster shell, Indonesian bat guano, and rock phosphate.


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## Chronikool (Mar 20, 2017)

Fungus eating Ladybird...


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## BillyBlanks420 (Mar 21, 2017)

Hey fellow organic growers... On my first no till cycle and I am experiencing some early yellowing in the last week of veg... I top dressed with an inch of Ewc amended with 1/2 cup each of neem/kelp/Crustacean and am hoping this will fix it because I want to flip any day now... I was wondering about an alfalfa foilar...
In the beginning of this thread it talks about an alfalfa seed tea would reduce internodule spacing during the stretch... I was wondering if an alfalfa meal foilar would do the same thing... Thanks in advance guys


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## calliandra (Mar 22, 2017)

NaturalFarmer said:


> View attachment 3907631


mm interesting, thanks! Where'd you get it from?


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## hillbill (Mar 22, 2017)

BillyBlanks420 said:


> Hey fellow organic growers... On my first no till cycle and I am experiencing some early yellowing in the last week of veg... I top dressed with an inch of Ewc amended with 1/2 cup each of neem/kelp/Crustacean and am hoping this will fix it because I want to flip any day now... I was wondering about an alfalfa foilar...
> In the beginning of this thread it talks about an alfalfa seed tea would reduce internodule spacing during the stretch... I was wondering if an alfalfa meal foilar would do the same thing... Thanks in advance guys


It takes about a week for top dressing to kick butt but I feel you have enough there. Heeping love on them has killed and tortured many plants. Water with compost tea for a herd boost when you water.


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## GreenSanta (Mar 24, 2017)

WitchDoctor said:


> 32 30 gallon pot mix
> 
> Girls scout cookies fematized
> Fluxing all plants
> ...


I'd use less neem and substitute for something else. Too much neem and the smoke will be harsh, I understand this is no till and u are looking at the long term but there are many other amendments available and for pest control neem cake is useless IMO unless u use enough to ruin the taste of the flowers. Based on my experience, from grows that are many years ago...


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## GreenSanta (Mar 24, 2017)

BillyBlanks420 said:


> Hey fellow organic growers... On my first no till cycle and I am experiencing some early yellowing in the last week of veg... I top dressed with an inch of Ewc amended with 1/2 cup each of neem/kelp/Crustacean and am hoping this will fix it because I want to flip any day now... I was wondering about an alfalfa foilar...
> In the beginning of this thread it talks about an alfalfa seed tea would reduce internodule spacing during the stretch... I was wondering if an alfalfa meal foilar would do the same thing... Thanks in advance guys


What size pots?

I never ever foliar spray, I did try years ago when I was not so busy... not the secret to healthy plants, I like to mimic nature, does it ever rain fertilizer!?

Next thing is are ur plants in their final pots and still in veg? I always do my final transplant 1-14 days before I flip and there is no way my plants are yellow before flowering, and if they are, they have not had a taste of that fresh layer of soil all around them and it's only a matter of time before they green back up.

If they fade early in flowering, different story. Sometimes I'll ride it out if it's a 60 days or less variety and if not I like to use a bit of seaweed / insect frass (preferably from mealworms, high in chitins) mixed with water. And or a top dress of wormcastings/compost and or worms.


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## Mohican (Mar 25, 2017)

Birds poop on the leaves and rain wets the poop - so yes it does


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## hillbill (Mar 25, 2017)

By the time rain hits leafy plants on the forest floor it may have run down bark and several leaves all with frass or bird crap and debris. So yes it does again.


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## GreenSanta (Mar 25, 2017)

hillbill said:


> By the time rain hits leafy plants on the forest floor it may have run down bark and several leaves all with frass or bird crap and debris. So yes it does again.


good try, look up the ppm of rain in a dense forest and look up the ppm of your teas...


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## calliandra (Mar 26, 2017)

Dammit you guys are so funny!
Time to roll one up and have a goofy day haha


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## hillbill (Mar 26, 2017)

I use a rich organic mix with high drainage and never foliar feed except in veg if a mg deficiency happens upon me. I do top dress with castings and fish bone meal 4 weeks in with my small containers. I alternate from compost tea to water to a weak Alfalfa tea when I water and keep that general schedule throughout.

The only thing that goes on foliage in flower is Neem/soap only for spider mites if present. I often rinse the plants at harvest and always do if I spray at all. 

I use nasty smelling stuff on my plants to grow in and never had any taste carry through.

If living in the South, your local bait shop can be a great source for cricket crap and you might get earthworms that have gone bad and many are packed in castings. Volunteer to clean the crickets and I think you can make a deal.

Some people are saying no Kelp in flower but I have not seen any trouble and it goes great in my weak tea also


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## AllDayToker (Mar 26, 2017)

AllDayToker said:


> Hey so I posted up a few days back with my recent run and it seemed like the problem was it was just a light soil.
> 
> I'm hoping to get some stuff ordered so by the time I'm finished chopping all my amendments are here and I can beef up my soil mix. What would you recommend adding? I have some things on hand, anything else I can order.
> 
> They also sell a re amending package on build a soil for the soil but if it was light before I'm guessing that wouldn't work well.





ShLUbY said:


> well i'd go with something like a greensand and calphos as mentioned before.... and then if you want to get the amendment pack from them... i'd just add those new ingredients at 1/2c per cuft and give it a go.... experimentation is the only way to really find out
> 
> i'm going through the same kinda thing as you, except i was seeing deficiencies at week 3 and 4 of flower... i think it was the down to earth amendments and have since switched every single product out for another brand. we'll see how this next run fairs....



Amendment pack plus green sand and CalPhos, got it! Thanks for the help I'll get that stuff ordered today.


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 26, 2017)

hillbill said:


> I use a rich organic mix with high drainage and never foliar feed except in veg if a mg deficiency happens upon me. I do top dress with castings and fish bone meal 4 weeks in with my small containers. I alternate from compost tea to water to a weak Alfalfa tea when I water and keep that general schedule throughout.
> 
> The only thing that goes on foliage in flower is Neem/soap only for spider mites if present. I often rinse the plants at harvest and always do if I spray at all.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't spray neem in flower. It leaves a residue that does not taste good. Maybe if you gave it a good wash it would be OK. I used spinosad on my last batch thanks to an especially nasty spider mite infestation. It's curing now. I burped the jars Friday and it smelled really nice. Hopefully the taste won't be affected, otherwise the whole batch will be turned into hash and cannabutter.
Never heard that kelp is bad during flower. In fact, there are products like GH Floralicious+ that contain kelp and work best if used during flower. Hell I just gave my giant sativa plant some tea last night that had kelp and it's a couple of weeks from being finished. She has mites too. I think these mites have developed an immunity to spinosad and SNS209, but it slows them down. I've had a lot of experience with mites, so I know when to chop. The indica plants had to be picked a few days early because a couple of tips had mite "blooms".
If you really want to see your buds swell, use some Indonesian seabird guano (0-12-0) in your tea, and don't forget the K2SO4.


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## hillbill (Mar 26, 2017)

Do you find any strains especially resistant? Any strains like mite magnets?
With you on the kelp. I bet most meals like kelp, alfalfa and such are made at very few places and labeled for other or shipped to sellers who bag their own. Same with emulsions or even rock products.


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 26, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Do you find any strains especially resistant? Any strains like mite magnets?
> With you on the kelp. I bet most meals like kelp, alfalfa and such are made at very few places and labeled for other or shipped to sellers who bag their own. Same with emulsions or even rock products.


I haven't noticed that any strains are more immune to mites, but very healthy plants with high brix tend to repel bugs and are more resistant to PM. My big sativa was virtually untouched while the indica plants were being eaten alive, but it was only because the indicas were closer to being finished and plants get weaker the closer they are to the chop. Now the big sativa is a couple of weeks out and the mites are taking full advantage of her weakened state.  
This time I'm not even sure where the mites came from. Normally I take care of that shit in veg and won't flip em until I know they are all bug free. SOOOOO much easier in veg when they are small. Hell, you can dip the entire plant in diluted peroxide if you want! Not an option in flower...


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## hillbill (Mar 26, 2017)

Have not had mites in years and so thankful. No clones here so one source gone but I live in heavily wooded area and they will be everywhere outside soon. I brought mine in with garden plants in the fall.

My nemesis is fungus gnats which I have brought in with composts, castings or mixes. My compost/bed mix has many and I have a bog garden. So I accept a certain number and they seem just a nuisance if controlled. Dunks ground up and mixed in soil works but grower must be tenacious.


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## NaturalFarmer (Mar 26, 2017)

@hillbill 
I highly recommend skipping the dunks and getting a $15 bottle of MicroBElift for birdbaths and ponds. It is concentrated and you aren't paying for cork. Will last much longer than dunks at a cheaper price.

https://www.microbelift.com/products/pond-and-water-garden/mosquito/


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## Heil Tweetler (Mar 26, 2017)

GreenSanta said:


> good try, look up the ppm of rain in a dense forest and look up the ppm of your teas...


How is that relevant? you said "i never, ever foliar spray" which sounds sort of hysterical, "not the secret to healthy plants" which sounds like you're knowledge of plant nutrition is limited, then you said "does it ever rain fertilizer!?" Ya it does, PPM response is an answer to a question that hasn't been raised. Since you like to imitate nature does it rain at all in your garden? Birds or other critters roaming? does your light spectrum range across the nm range like the sun? Your garden is an artificial environment. Arguing that you dont foliar spray because of your desire to imitate nature is idiotic.

Foliar spray is widely used by the gardeners of the highest skill level across ag and horticultural production, organic and otherwise.

Refrain from the phony expert pronouncements.


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## calliandra (Mar 26, 2017)

Heil Tweetler said:


> Refrain from the phony expert pronouncements.


_ibid._ please. LOL


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 26, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Have not had mites in years and so thankful. No clones here so one source gone but I live in heavily wooded area and they will be everywhere outside soon. I brought mine in with garden plants in the fall.
> 
> My nemesis is fungus gnats which I have brought in with composts, castings or mixes. My compost/bed mix has many and I have a bog garden. So I accept a certain number and they seem just a nuisance if controlled. Dunks ground up and mixed in soil works but grower must be tenacious.


Fungus gnats can also be controlled if you smother the soil on top with sand, perlite, or clay (non-clumping). The problem with all of them except perlite is that top-watering will blend the top-dressing with the soil, which is not as effective. Diatomaceous earth (DE) also works, but has the same problem with blending. 
Bottom-watering can help, but isn't always a good option. Using microbelift is probably the most effective way to keep them away, but you've got to make it part of your schedule and not wait for the little fuckers to set up shop. I bought a big jug of mosquito bits (before I knew about microbelift) and it has lasted a long time. I think it will get rid of thrips too.


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## bizfactory (Mar 26, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Fungus gnats can also be controlled if you smother the soil on top with sand, perlite, or clay (non-clumping). The problem with all of them except perlite is that top-watering will blend the top-dressing with the soil, which is not as effective. Diatomaceous earth (DE) also works, but has the same problem with blending.
> Bottom-watering can help, but isn't always a good option. Using microbelift is probably the most effective way to keep them away, but you've got to make it part of your schedule and not wait for the little fuckers to set up shop. I bought a big jug of mosquito bits (before I knew about microbelift) and it has lasted a long time. I think it will get rid of thrips too.


I actually like the mosquito bits more than microbelift, both work but I feel like the bits are more effective.


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## hillbill (Mar 26, 2017)

Best place or dealer for Microbe-lift?


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## NaturalFarmer (Mar 26, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> I actually like the mosquito bits more than microbelift, both work but I feel like the bits are more effective.


Both are about the same in terms of BTi (10%ish) and price but the microbelift treats five times the amount and mixes in minutes.


EDIT: Actually just looked at the *bits and it contains only 2-3% BTi *while the* dunks are 10.5%*.
http://cdn.arbico-organics.com/downloads/1211108-Mosquito-Bits-Label.pdf

Strange how much weaker the bits are, you would think it was the same product.
http://www.summitchemical.com/wp-content/themes/SUMCHM/images/Dunks_Front_NEW_out-12-7-08.pdf


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## NaturalFarmer (Mar 26, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Best place or dealer for Microbe-lift?


Webb's water garden.
https://webbsonline.com/Category/Mosquito-Control


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 26, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Best place or dealer for Microbe-lift?


There's a store finder on the link NF posted. I found several places close to my hose.


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## hillbill (Mar 26, 2017)

NaturalFarmer said:


> Webb's water garden.
> https://webbsonline.com/Category/Mosquito-Control


Thanks!


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## GreenSanta (Mar 26, 2017)

Heil Tweetler said:


> How is that relevant? you said "i never, ever foliar spray" which sounds sort of hysterical, "not the secret to healthy plants" which sounds like you're knowledge of plant nutrition is limited, then you said "does it ever rain fertilizer!?" Ya it does, PPM response is an answer to a question that hasn't been raised. Since you like to imitate nature does it rain at all in your garden? Birds or other critters roaming? does your light spectrum range across the nm range like the sun? Your garden is an artificial environment. Arguing that you dont foliar spray because of your desire to imitate nature is idiotic.
> 
> Foliar spray is widely used by the gardeners of the highest skill level across ag and horticultural production, organic and otherwise.
> 
> Refrain from the phony expert pronouncements.


wow man you took this the wrong way, the reason why i insisted on the fact that I dont ever spray is that it can be done, most people seems to forget. I dont ever spray, just like I will never come back on RIU and offend you.


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 26, 2017)

I've had good luck with and without foliar sprays. Can't beat it for fixing mag def quick.


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## AllDayToker (Mar 26, 2017)




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## Heil Tweetler (Mar 26, 2017)

GreenSanta said:


> wow man you took this the wrong way, the reason why i insisted on the fact that I dont ever spray is that it can be done, most people seems to forget. I dont ever spray, just like I will never come back on RIU and offend you.


,

*H*ysterical²


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## cannaguy420 (Apr 6, 2017)

awesome good reads!


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## MrKnotty (Apr 28, 2017)

Hello again fellow nerds! I am making a couple different FPE at the moment and I am wondering if anyone has fermented Star Thistle? It grows like crazy where I live and I am just wondering if this is a plant I should be focused on extracting. THANKS FOR YOUR INPUT FRIENDS!!!


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## potmonster1993 (May 26, 2017)

So I have been flowering my plants in 30 gallon pots using the ROLS methods. I have had yields in the range from 5-12 ounces per plant. I am curious of what you think I should be getting. I just flower 1 plant per 600 watt HPS light. Lately I have been stuck on lower yields around 5 ounces. How much water should I be giving these ladies? I try to get 5 gallons every 3 days with a compost tea every 4th watering. I noticed on my higher yields when I would get 12 ounces was when I was feeding compost tea every time. What kind of yields do you awesome earth loving growers get when using 30 gallon pots? What should I be getting?


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## frankslan (May 31, 2017)

anyone know what kind of mite I have


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## Chunky Stool (Jun 1, 2017)

potmonster1993 said:


> So I have been flowering my plants in 30 gallon pots using the ROLS methods. I have had yields in the range from 5-12 ounces per plant. I am curious of what you think I should be getting. I just flower 1 plant per 600 watt HPS light. Lately I have been stuck on lower yields around 5 ounces. How much water should I be giving these ladies? I try to get 5 gallons every 3 days with a compost tea every 4th watering. I noticed on my higher yields when I would get 12 ounces was when I was feeding compost tea every time. What kind of yields do you awesome earth loving growers get when using 30 gallon pots? What should I be getting?


My plants like nutrient tea every time, but they also get rain water outside. Peruvian seabird guano & potassium sulfate really hits the spot.


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## bizfactory (Jun 14, 2017)

frankslan said:


> anyone know what kind of mite I have


They are called mold mites. There is the scientific name as well but I don't recall that. They were harmless for me and eventually went away on their own. I'd find them on lower leaves after a watering but they never seem to do any leaf damage.


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## frankslan (Jun 14, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> They are called mold mites. There is the scientific name as well but I don't recall that. They were harmless for me and eventually went away on their own. I'd find them on lower leaves after a watering but they never seem to do any leaf damage.


tyrophagus putrescentiae maybe? Thats what i thought they were or composting mites idk whatever ive been spraying them still coming out of the soil though

Its weird if you look at the picture you can see pieces of leaf in their bellys


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## bizfactory (Jun 14, 2017)

frankslan said:


> tyrophagus putrescentiae maybe? Thats what i thought they were or composting mites idk whatever ive been spraying them still coming out of the soil though


Yes, those. Are they eating the leaves? My blumats were on too aggressively and my pots were really wet. Once I backed off the water, they went away shortly after.


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## frankslan (Jun 14, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Yes, those. Are they eating the leaves? My blumats were on too aggressively and my pots were really wet. Once I backed off the water, they went away shortly after.


After i noticed them i went full out on them spraying so i dont really know. i would see them on sick leaves in the lower canopy my pot is a sip pot so stays wet always... In the picture it looks like they ate something you can see it in their bellys.


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## bizfactory (Jun 15, 2017)

6th cycle 15 no till containers going strong! We haven't had too many pictures lately so why not.


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## elkamino (Jun 15, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> 6th cycle 15 no till containers going strong! We haven't had too many pictures lately so why not.


Lookin Great Biz!

Got any tips your willing to share about how you ammend your badass 6-cycle no-til soil?!


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## bizfactory (Jun 15, 2017)

elkamino said:


> Lookin Great Biz!
> 
> Got any tips your willing to share about how you ammend your badass 6-cycle no-til soil?!


I mainly top dress based on how the plants are reacting at this point. If I see an early fade I'll go harder but my standard is 1/4c bas craft nutrient blend once a cycle. Maybe again before flower if I've been seeing yellow. I always top dress leaves when trimmed and return the stems after harvest. I'll throw some go Kashi or MBP once a month or so just because. I water with comfrey FPJ once a week maybe, 2 tsp per gallon.

I am pretty loose with my maintenance, the worms handle most of it. If you have specific questions, lemme know.


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## frankslan (Jun 15, 2017)

Ya any tips im running cob too i read you said ypu have to use more tea im in 50 gal sips havent done much just water. 

Heres my day 37 buds are kind of tiny.


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## calliandra (Jun 17, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> I mainly top dress based on how the plants are reacting at this point. If I see an early fade I'll go harder but my standard is 1/4c bas craft nutrient blend once a cycle. Maybe again before flower if I've been seeing yellow. I always top dress leaves when trimmed and return the stems after harvest. I'll throw some go Kashi or MBP once a month or so just because. I water with comfrey FPJ once a week maybe, 2 tsp per gallon.
> 
> I am pretty loose with my maintenance, the worms handle most of it. If you have specific questions, lemme know.


sorry, what's MBP? 

And what about your soil structure - do you amend aeration (beyond the chunkiness of the stems you add back in)? As far as I've seen, that usually is the reason why no-tills get broken up and remade?
Cheers!


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## bizfactory (Jun 17, 2017)

calliandra said:


> sorry, what's MBP?
> 
> And what about your soil structure - do you amend aeration (beyond the chunkiness of the stems you add back in)? As far as I've seen, that usually is the reason why no-tills get broken up and remade?
> Cheers!


Malted barley powder. I did sort of remix the soil between #2 and #3 to add more pumice but that's it.


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## frankslan (Jun 17, 2017)

I think the idea is that the worm aerated the soil over time. When you topdress add some aeration to the ewc.


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## calliandra (Jun 17, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Malted barley powder. I did sort of remix the soil between #2 and #3 to add more pumice but that's it.


So about what percentage would you estimate your aeration to be in the mix now?
Must be a good ratio, if you haven't had the urge to remix since!


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## calliandra (Jun 17, 2017)

frankslan said:


> I think the idea is that the worm aerated the soil over time. When you topdress add some aeration to the ewc.


Yes but it is also being observed that when worms work and rework the soil over time, it tends to get that silty spent consistency. So having enough aeration and replenishing the microbial foodstock to keep them rebuilding that soil structure is what to my mind is the crux of no-tilling in containers


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## bizfactory (Jun 17, 2017)

calliandra said:


> So about what percentage would you estimate your aeration to be in the mix now?
> Must be a good ratio, if you haven't had the urge to remix since!


Well it started as the very first BAS mix...I think it was just called "living soil". Anyways, it had a decent amount of rice hulls for aeration but I found that they were almost completely gone by the middle of the 2nd cycle. So basically I figured out what percentage of the 33% aeration was rice hulls and just added that back in pumice. So the overall percentage of aeration isn't different, it will just be consistent since the pumice won't break down over time. Does that make sense?


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## calliandra (Jun 17, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Well it started as the very first BAS mix...I think it was just called "living soil". Anyways, it had a decent amount of rice hulls for aeration but I found that they were almost completely gone by the middle of the 2nd cycle. So basically I figured out what percentage of the 33% aeration was rice hulls and just added that back in pumice. So the overall percentage of aeration isn't different, it will just be consistent since the pumice won't break down over time. Does that make sense?


Yes it does, thank you!
I had lava rock in my first designated no-tills, when I had to uppot a plant in the, I think it was thrid, cycle, I noticed how the chunks had pretty much sunken to the bottom of the pot.

Now, pumice is lighter, but what size are the chunks you use?
My lava rock was at 1cm+ diameter, I have this hunch that was too large for them to stay suspended as they should to fulfill their function properly...
Cheers!


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## ShLUbY (Jun 17, 2017)

ok I'm finally seeing what I feel i should be seeing. 30 days in, and 40 to go! Brainwreck. only in 5 gals... amazing growth... feeling satisfied! thinking these will be my best two yielding plants of the year, and I'm hoping for successful repetitions of this from here on out! Thanks for all your help over the last couple years RIU Organic Crew (the RIUOC haha). Here's to you guys.


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## Mazer (Jun 22, 2017)

Rrog said:


> There's some bit of consensus that 15 gallon fabric pot is a minimum for no-till. I'm sure some excellent stuff has been done in less, but again, I'm relating a small group's thoughts on this. I'm starting a friend off with a no-till grow. Two 15 gallon Geopots. We may introduce clover for a month in between grows, to replenish some N and to avoid mono-cropping. Plant diversity / companion planting is a good thing.
> 
> We're also starting seeds in 2 gallon Velcro Geopots (very very handy thing, that velcro) and transplant after sexing. This'll be a short veg of 3 weeks


Dear Rrog, Dear Gentlefolks,
I just started reading this thread. I am on page 10/406 but by Jah I will read all posts(within the next decade). on my first run since 1994... Having a horticultural background I designed my own soil. I work like a mad man on my micro herd, brewing all sorts of teas, using SST, have my worm bin. I run two 2'x2' tents with custom made LED's. One for flowering and one that I turned into two levels for rooting, bonsai mothers and vegging.
Due to limited space and as I wish to have 4 plants flowering all the time I have to use 6gallon pots. Is not till out of the question with this small size pot? I like to take my girls out and look around. but if it is really necessary I guess I could just put one giant pot in the flowering tent but not my favorite setup.
Any suggestions/ idea?

6gallonly yours,
M


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## frankslan (Jun 22, 2017)

Ya interested in that also i guess you have to recycle it instead of no til


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## MrKnotty (Jul 12, 2017)

Well hello again fellow Rols and microbe enthusiasts!!! This has been my third successful ROLS run and I am incredibly grateful for this thread and those who share there knowledge. I have a quick question for anyone whom cares to answer. I am moving to a new property next year and the water on the property has very high PH, like 9.5 or 10. Something crazy. Do I need to take any extra precautions or will Coots recipe be balanced enough to handle that water. Thanks so much for any and all help!!!
Peace


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## Mohican (Jul 13, 2017)

Sounds like you should invest in a water softener (I use the potassium chloride option) and an RO water system.


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## MrKnotty (Jul 13, 2017)

As aways you are the best Mo! Thank you.


Mohican said:


> Sounds like you should invest in a water softener (I use the potassium chloride option) and an RO water system.


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## bobrown14 (Jul 24, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear Rrog, Dear Gentlefolks,
> I just started reading this thread. I am on page 10/406 but by Jah I will read all posts(within the next decade). on my first run since 1994... Having a horticultural background I designed my own soil. I work like a mad man on my micro herd, brewing all sorts of teas, using SST, have my worm bin. I run two 2'x2' tents with custom made LED's. One for flowering and one that I turned into two levels for rooting, bonsai mothers and vegging.
> Due to limited space and as I wish to have 4 plants flowering all the time I have to use 6gallon pots. Is not till out of the question with this small size pot? I like to take my girls out and look around. but if it is really necessary I guess I could just put one giant pot in the flowering tent but not my favorite setup.
> Any suggestions/ idea?
> ...


I run my no-tils in 7 gal pots. I get about 6-7 runs even with amendments in between. My 7gal pots are only for flowering plants from 50-60 day cycles. So about a year then my yields start falling off. Again even with amendments and teas adding it new mycos (Mykes brand) beginning of every cycle.

Recycle the soil into outdoor compost piles and before the end of the last cycle, mix my new soil (Coots mix) let sit and b-ready for the next round... use a good bit of home made compost for my humus portion, then send a sample to my State AG county extension service for a soil test. Amend if needed. Done for another 6-7 rounds.

With 15-20gal pots I'm sure I could go a while longer between new soil. 

Sooo to answer your question, yes 6gal will work, just won't last as long as a larger container before you need to recycle and mix new batch. I've done 5gal no-til for 10 rounds but kept suffering loss of yields after say 5 rounds.. Nothing but flowers in soil over extended time will give the soil a pretty hard workout.

As long as everything is the same... no pests etc, my yields per plant are 3.5 zips dry wt. more = bonus; less, I start to look closely at my soil and make additional necessary amendments next round.

Feel like sharing your custom soil mix with us??

GL with your first round... Custom COB lighting here and No-til organic soil since 2013.


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## Mazer (Jul 26, 2017)

Mad Hamish said:


> Ah, dolomite. This might be the reason for your deficiency. It acts as a Ph buffer waaaaaaaaaaybefore it breaks down to make any magnesium available to the plant. Replace Dolly with a 50/50 mix of gypsum and crushed oyster shell. Another issue is how it is nailing your Ph really high. Dolomite lime removes the olant's capability to control Ph. Nutrient absorption changes per nute as Ph and temps change. I have a feeling your narrow Ph range coupled with lower temps are also affecting uptake. Epsom salts work very well for may deficiency, half tespoon per gallon water should do the trick every time. But in my OPINION top dressing worm castings is the best emergency treatment for most non bug issues.


Dude you are a surgeon!


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## Mazer (Jul 26, 2017)

Midwest Weedist said:


> View attachment 3379524 View attachment 3379529 Here's a couple pictures of my Yunnan gal. I can't believe how bushy she is. She loves my soil too


Ok I know this is a post from 689 days ago but did you feed her alfalfa SST? my girls that get alfalfa SST go completely berserk. Apical dominance totally suppressed! little gals with huge afros! dense as a spaghetti dish!


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## bobrown14 (Jul 26, 2017)

I use Alfalfa meal *along* with Kelp Meal for stretch ( <-- see what I did there?), in my teas and also in the soil mix. I sometimes get a good stretch from the Kelp Meal AND a big ass bush. Sometimes I get a short big ass bush that takes me 6hrs to trim... I like the stretchy-ness better than the bushiness for indoors.. well to a point! 

I think adding to soil works well, probably better than the tea ... Tricanatol FTW. I usually just do a EWC + Kelp meal for my ACT... haven't don't an SST for a while. Too lazy...

Wanna see berserk?? try some Malted Barley Tea... ground up to a fine powder - 1oz of Malted Barley seed (think brewing beer) - ground fine to 1gal RO or filtered water... results over night. Do that early in flower then a few weeks later.


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## Mazer (Jul 27, 2017)

bobrown14 said:


> I use Alfalfa meal *along* with Kelp Meal for stretch ( <-- see what I did there?), .


Actually no! what DID you do here? Is kelp meal counteracting the dwarfication (gotta love this one) cause by Tricanatol? Well yes to be specific I know it is not making the plant smaller but just inhibiting apical dominance. It is so strong that when I tried to trim a bit the plant to shape it up, the growth was sooooo dense that I could not grab the branches. I did not click any pix of them. Now they are trained.

Jumping from pillar to post; does anyone know what this is. about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch and moving around the pots in the soil. fairly quick and tries to avoid light at all cost. I can not spot much more than this handsome fellow. not so many but I see one or two at least every day.

Creepingly yours,
M


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## bobrown14 (Jul 27, 2017)

Don't you have it backwards?? Triacontanol causes stretch! Why I don't use in my ACT after 2 week of flowering. Before that for shure.... so not sure if serious. Back up you science with some .... well science.

Since we agree to disagree, I'll point you to some factual info regarding this awesome amendment. I use Alfalfa meal mainly in my soil mix.... get the soil mix and compost right ... not much else to do cept water FTW. 

Here's a short read on it - this one specifically says "alfalfa meal increased the dry weight and water uptake"

Found nothing on apical dominant suppression... isn't that what you're doing by "trimming" your plants, which BTW I am NOT and advocate of.. trim at transplant in early VEG, yes after that... diminishing returns unless you want to grow your plant for 6 months... 

Here's the read:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17738418

Here's a picture from an actual scientific study of examples of the uses for triacontanol. Notice the stretch and not the bush??? I see an apical meristem longer than in the control sample!


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## hillbill (Jul 27, 2017)

Alfalfa is magic! It just is.


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## bobrown14 (Jul 27, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Alfalfa is magic! It just is.


Add some EWC and some kelp meal.... maybe even a little organic pure coconut water = plants gone wild.


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## Johnei (Jul 27, 2017)

I use Alfalfa in the soil mix, not only for the N and unique hormone, but because it heats up the soil from within increasing metabolic microbe functions reducing 'bake' time when initialy mixing, and also is extremely excellent microbe food source. And I also will not use it in teas past about mid flower, and for sure not top dress with it; it is rich in nitrogen and I believe the hormone will also make plant focus shift and mess with yield.


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## Johnei (Jul 27, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Actually no! what DID you do here? Is kelp meal counteracting the dwarfication (gotta love this one) cause by Tricanatol? Well yes to be specific I know it is not making the plant smaller but just inhibiting apical dominance. It is so strong that when I tried to trim a bit the plant to shape it up, the growth was sooooo dense that I could not grab the branches. I did not click any pix of them. Now they are trained.
> 
> Jumping from pillar to post; does anyone know what this is. about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch and moving around the pots in the soil. fairly quick and tries to avoid light at all cost. I can not spot much more than this handsome fellow. not so many but I see one or two at least every day.
> 
> ...


That's a predator centipede, will kill almost anything, if you have this, I believe this is good, sorta like when you see spiders, you know they are cleaning up other pests. I think it is poisonous also, but to humans wont do shit, don't quote me on that one. --edit-- BE CAREFUL!
They are nocturnal predators, why they avoid the light, burrow through tunnels and holes creeping under the leaf litter in forests etc. rest most of day, come out at night.


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## Johnei (Jul 27, 2017)

This is different more monsterous species than yours I think, but same shit.. some cool videos...
https://www.google.com/search?q=bug+wars+centipede


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## SPLFreak808 (Jul 27, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Actually no! what DID you do here? Is kelp meal counteracting the dwarfication (gotta love this one) cause by Tricanatol? Well yes to be specific I know it is not making the plant smaller but just inhibiting apical dominance. It is so strong that when I tried to trim a bit the plant to shape it up, the growth was sooooo dense that I could not grab the branches. I did not click any pix of them. Now they are trained.
> 
> Jumping from pillar to post; does anyone know what this is. about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch and moving around the pots in the soil. fairly quick and tries to avoid light at all cost. I can not spot much more than this handsome fellow. not so many but I see one or two at least every day.
> 
> ...


Where do you live?

If thats a scolopendra subspinipes then i would be carefull with it, I see those almost every other month. (Google-adult scolopendra)

I've gotten bit on my foot & i noticed the bite alone felt much worse compared to a yellow jacket, After the bite my whole leg was throbbing on fire for a few hours. I still got two little scars from the bite and its been like 7 years lol


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## Mazer (Jul 28, 2017)

bobrown14 said:


> Don't you have it backwards?? Triacontanol causes stretch! Why I don't use in my ACT after 2 week of flowering.


Well I guess I did get it backward. too many factors to keep track. I am very confused now. What have I added to my soil that got my cuttings to bush out the way they did. I am gonna go over my raster and try to spot what I have missed. I only use WCT, SST and botanical foliar sprays.

oh well...

Anyhow, thanks for the clarifications bobrown!


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## hillbill (Jul 28, 2017)

I brought in some bottom layer leaf litter from the woods in back a few winters ago and had hundreds on centipedes in my room the next morning! End of leaf litter in the house. I ended a similar experiment with my outdoor compost with lizard eggs!


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## bobrown14 (Jul 28, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Well I guess I did get it backward. too many factors to keep track. I am very confused now. What have I added to my soil that got my cuttings to bush out the way they did. I am gonna go over my raster and try to spot what I have missed. I only use WCT, SST and botanical foliar sprays.
> 
> oh well...
> 
> Anyhow, thanks for the clarifications bobrown!


Its all good Mazar... IF I get a reall bushy plant with lots of side branching give it some ACT with Kelp/ewc/Alfalfa meal and some pure unsweetened organic coconut water no preservatives.
1 cup EWC
1/2 cup Kelp Meal
1/4 cup Alfalfa meal
1/4 cup coconut water
3-5 gal filtered water
Aerate overnight >= 24 hrs... water in can also strain and foiler... 

Do this 1x every other week up until 2-3 weeks in flower then cut out the alfalfa meal.. 

Plant's stems will elongate and buds with fatten up nicely. Will look like this... Chemdawg at 55 days 12/12 organic soil. She probably only had 4 of that ACT recipe I posted up there ^^^^ 
I use an IPM with horsetail fern tea to treat plants for PM/mold. Chemdawg is prone to that this time of year. After using the Horsetail Fern tea.... no more mold or PM.


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## Mazer (Jul 28, 2017)

Boborown, unfortunately I have neither alfalfa meal (only seeds) nor coco water. I try to use what I have handy or that I can get VERY easily. I buy some essential exotic goodies every now and then but I always try to think global and buy local. To the extent that I am really thinking of starting a cockroach composter. It seems awesome. 
WC & roach dejection +egg sacks and exuviae (molted skin) should be a hell of an amendment! all the delicious chitin, nutrients and bennies in the mixture should be a good add on. 
I saw this video (the guy's name sounds like he can be the ugly duck of the kardashians. initials KK...) 



 and he has started his business http://www.roachcrossing.com/
now gotta figure out what specie would be best for composting.
Any thoughts?
Roachingly yours,
M


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## bobrown14 (Jul 29, 2017)

Roaches... meh, careful what you wish for there bro! Just sayin... Easy to grow, a lot harder to get rid of once out and about. I have a cottage in cottage country in Canada... roaches are there. Can put a pan of water out and they jump in and drown...they are everywhere.... and we are on an small island. They poop a shit ton and it's visible, pretty disgusting, chittins frass and all. Prefer worms... but they are not at our cottage so the roaches do what the worms would do, the soil is awesome.


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## hillbill (Jul 30, 2017)

Compost barrel here draws black soldier flies and they keep the level steady all summer. That compost which is all vegetables and fruit and stems and fan leaves will grow anything, not worm castings but maggot frass perhaps. Sow bugs are another processor.


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## bobrown14 (Jul 30, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Compost barrel here draws black soldier flies and they keep the level steady all summer. That compost which is all vegetables and fruit and stems and fan leaves will grow anything, not worm castings but maggot frass perhaps. Sow bugs are another processor.


No worms?? red wigglers I thought were everywhere. Black soldier fly larvae are great composters and the flies are docile... and don't really like being inside your home either....


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## Mazer (Jul 30, 2017)

I have a much higher tolerance towards 3" tropical cockroaches than clouds of black soldier flies. I was thinking to get the ones that can not stand cold weather so if they escape, the climate will take care of them. but I am far from starting my roachcomposter. It is an idea that has been dwelling on my mind and would have loved to hear from someone who tried it first hand.

Lookingforfeedbackingly yours,
M


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## bobrown14 (Jul 30, 2017)

I have a small island on a lake in Ontario that the only composting insects are roaches. No worms, no flies just roaches and Ravens. The ravens eat at the compost pile and poop while eating and free entertainment. The ravens can talk and all sorts of crazy shit. They probably eat roaches too. 

Yeah the roaches can handle cold weather. They lay eggs and come back when the weather warms up... or go underground??


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## Johnei (Jul 30, 2017)

(Ravens are so damn smart, and crows, I think would make great pet..lol)


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## hillbill (Jul 30, 2017)

bobrown14 said:


> No worms?? red wigglers I thought were everywhere. Black soldier fly larvae are great composters and the flies are docile... and don't really like being inside your home either....


Second barrelgets filled with half finished compost and is allowed to sit for months withlayer on top of peat and straw. Full of reds! Final product makes huge plants, even wild weeds!


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## hillbill (Jul 30, 2017)

Johnei said:


> (Ravens are so damn smart, and crows, I think would make great pet..lol)


Had a pet crow for months while he grew up when I was little. Very smart animal that has it all over some of our pets and maybe some friends! I feed a few local crows these days. And they let me watch them.


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## ANC (Jul 30, 2017)

Lol, I have clover leaves almost the size of my palms.
We have been adding charcoal to our soils since long before I knew it was a thing.

You probably need to dig 2 feet or deeper to get through my black topsoil part.
Actually just planted a runt out into it, it is a bit of a shady spot these days, but as summer rolls in it gets more light, hopefully, it will reveg, it just barely started making flowers., I tied it down so low it is probably knee height now. 

The runt is part of my root experiments using perforated bags. It grew the rootball to the maximum size without getting root bound, it is just a dense ball of very fine roots. It just hit the plant size limit for the bag. No amount of feeding could get it to go bigger. The root ball is a perfect 360-degree ball so it will dig into the soil very fast.


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## Mazer (Jul 31, 2017)

Dear Gentlefolks,
I have been munching on this thread for a week now. I am on page 360. Incredible read, incredible growers. Thanks for sharing your experiences. What is more gratifying that bettering another human being?
Around page 253 (give or take 5 pages) I accepted I need Aloe and Coco. For the aloe I found a seemingly decent product. on of those 200x freeze dry thingies. the coco powders I come across always have some weird additives in them. 
My question: As I found a decent supply for 16oz pure coco water, can I freeze it in trays and use the ice cubes when needed or will I damage some of the goodies inside?
Anyone tried it before? 
Freezingly yours,
M


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## bizfactory (Jul 31, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear Gentlefolks,
> I have been munching on this thread for a week now. I am on page 360. Incredible read, incredible growers. Thanks for sharing your experiences. What is more gratifying that bettering another human being?
> Around page 253 (give or take 5 pages) I accepted I need Aloe and Coco. For the aloe I found a seemingly decent product. on of those 200x freeze dry thingies. the coco powders I come across always have some weird additives in them.
> My question: As I found a decent supply for 16oz pure coco water, can I freeze it in trays and use the ice cubes when needed or will I damage some of the goodies inside?
> ...


I wouldn't mess with the coco water, malted barley is cheaper and easier. I would also consider coco water / mbp to be an "extra" for the plants. Aloe is crucial though. Get a plant so you can skip the powder.


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## Mazer (Aug 1, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Aloe is crucial though. Get a plant so you can skip the powder.


Hello Bizfactory,
Aloe is on my shopping list. But it feels like I will be using a heckload of leaves even for my few plants. Would I not?
I will have to keep it in my vegg cabinet. Which makes me uneasy. Not too crazy about bringing soil/roots from the outside world. Any idea on how to avoid issues besides buying another cabinet?
And I have been picking everyone's brain here so alow me to introduce you to my ladies. 4 super skunk branched out and trained to the max and kept to about 16". Not nearly as frosty as I would like BUT considering 
1-it is my first grow since Clinton was the POTUS 
2-that I built my own led (thanks grau5!) 
3-I designed my own soil before I was even introduced to the thread
4-I have no GPW goal whatsoever,
I am a happy camper

Smilingly yours,
M


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## Jimmy Verde (Aug 1, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> I wouldn't mess with the coco water, malted barley is cheaper and easier. I would also consider coco water / mbp to be an "extra" for the plants. Aloe is crucial though. Get a plant so you can skip the powder.


Newbie question here how is the aloe applied by foliar? Can I mix in my tea just bout to feed so was wondering lol


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## bobrown14 (Aug 1, 2017)

Hey there Mazar... try this @ 1/4 cup per Gal of water and can also mix in with your IPM.

If you have access to young coconuts - the green ones have the most water, drill holes and drain and mix with water and water in. Coconut water (pure no sugar no preservatives), is an overnight sensation. You will see an immediate result. Combine with Malted Barley = shit off charts. 

I use this product from Trader Joe's:


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## Mazer (Aug 5, 2017)

Dear Gentlefolks,
My worms are asking me for a bokashi treat. And I shall oblige. I understand the benefices of the fermentation process (up to a point) BUT I saw gro-kashi which is supposed to be waaaaaaaaay superior! or is it just the label? 
For some obscure reason, when I do a search on RIU, I NEVER EVER get the results I am after. Is there a thread on this subjet?
I did see hyroot's post giving the receipe
 https://www.rollitup.org/t/recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-and-no-till-thread.636057/page-380#post-12800461

But I am still in darkness regard gro-kashi. what are the differences/advantages???

Kimchiingly yours,
M


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## Mazer (Aug 7, 2017)

Dear Gentlefolks,
Just as a bumper for those who have not yet read the excellent "Teaming up with Microbes" by Jeff Lowenfels and Wayne Lewis, here are the 19 RULES to keep in mind. I have on of these laminated and posted by my plants.
feel free to order a copy here or elsewhere to read the details. https://www.amazon.com/Teaming-Microbes-Organic-Gardeners-Revised/dp/1604691131/ref=asap_bc?ie=UTF8


The Soil Food Web Gardening Rules
1.	Some plants prefer soils dominated by fungi; others prefer soils dominated by bacteria.
2.	Most vegetables, annuals, and grasses prefer their nitrogen in nitrate form and do best in bacterially dominated soils.
3.	Most trees, shrubs, and perennials prefer their nitrogen in ammonium form and do best in fungally dominated soils.
4.	Compost can be used to inoculate beneficial microbes and life into soils around your yard and introduce, maintain, or alter the soil food web in a particular area.
5.	Adding compost and its soil food web to the surface of the soil will inoculate the soil with the same soil food web.
6.	Aged, brown organic materials support fungi; fresh, green organic materials support bacteria.
7.	Mulch laid on the surface tends to support fungi; mulch worked into the soil tends to support bacteria.
8.	If you wet and grind mulch thoroughly, it speeds up bacterial colonization.
9.	Coarse, dryer mulches support fungal activity.
10.	Sugars help bacteria multiply and grow; kelp, humic and fulvic acids, and phosphate rock dusts help fungi grow.
11.	By choosing the compost you begin with and what nutrients you add to it, you can make teas that are heavily fungal, bacterially dominated, or balanced.
12.	Compost teas are very sensitive to chlorine and preservatives in the brewing water and ingredients.
13.	Applications of synthetic fertilizers kill off most or all of the soil food web microbes.
14.	Stay away from additives that have high NPK numbers.
15.	Follow any chemical spraying or soil drenching with an application of compost tea.
16.	Most conifers and hardwood trees (birch, oak, beech, hickory) form mycorrhizae with ectomycorrhizal fungi.  
17.	Most vegetables, annuals, grasses, shrubs, softwood trees, and perennials form mycorrhizae with endomycorrhizal fungi.
18.	Rototilling and excessive soil disturbance destroy or severely damage the soil food web.  
19.	Always mix endomycorrhizal fungi with the seeds of annuals and vegetables at planting time or apply them to roots at transplanting time.

Teamingly yours,
M


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## Mohican (Aug 8, 2017)

Grow Kashi is on Facebook. It is a group and you need to be invited by another farmer.


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## Jimmy Verde (Aug 9, 2017)

Just grabbed these the aloe has 1/10 of 1% preservatives is that bad?


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## Mohican (Aug 9, 2017)

Mother's market has aloe leaves in the produce section.


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## DrCannaPath (Aug 10, 2017)

Hey everyone and thanks a lot in advance for all the help and experience contribution you guys have provided and continue to provide.
I am working on building a raised beds garden in the worst climate ever for gardening. In the summer and from june until september, its very difficut to keep any potted plant alive. The heat will suffocate the roots if the soil is a bit wetter! Its 120F in the shade during the day and 85-95F at night. Humidity doesnt register actually during mid june to early august. 
Id like to get some input on the best organic no til soil mix for this climate. Would upping the drainage/aeration (perlite) to 50% from 33% sounds right? How about the base? Should I use Coco vs peat vs sand (or a mix of the above)? 
I would really love to get the input of those living in those parts of the world close enough of hell. The raised beds are constructed and im thinking about NOT lining the wood as to allow soil water to hydrate the frame during those dry and hot times?? or should I line it to prevent rotting!
Ill be using fluffier mulch during those hot summers to keep the soil cool but also allow for easier evaporation to avoid suffocating the roots. Ill also be growin some herbs and green leafy veggies to cover the soil during those months
As far as watering, i would love to employ the blumats in my oitdoor garden giving the amazing experience I have with them indoors. But can they handle such climate?? 
Thanks again lads 

Check out my current Organic Fruit Garden:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/945580/
and my previous Organic Run:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/930415/
and my previous QuadStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/916619/
and my previous TriStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/883569/


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## Chronikool (Aug 13, 2017)

Ultimate Warrior


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## ANC (Aug 25, 2017)




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## Mazer (Sep 3, 2017)

Dear Gentlefolks,
I came upon this site http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/vegetables-and-vegetable-products/2302/2 and I checked the content of different sprouts. I was struck by the variety of Protein, Amino Acids you can find from one sprout to another.
Did anyone ever tried to sprout a combination of different seed that have a similar germination time for a more rich SST?

Sproutingly yours,
M


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## Magdup (Sep 17, 2017)

Hi guys. I m going to start my first living organic grow next month and i want to keep the soil for no till after i m done. So here is my question how do i store the soil for the next run( i can only do 1 to 2 a year). Do i have to water the containers with the soil on a regular base and keep the soil alive or do i need to plant some cover corp or can i leave the pots just in the dark and let them dry out? Sorry for being off topic!!! And thanks for your help!!!


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## hillbill (Sep 17, 2017)

Keep it moist, not soggy and store in Sterlite or Rubbermaid bins and open lid and remove as needed. I have used bins of 18 to 30 gallons for ten years. Can be stored drier. I just now scooped out enough used mix to start seeds this morning from a bin on the back deck.


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## MrKnotty (Sep 17, 2017)

Magdup said:


> Hi guys. I m going to start my first living organic grow next month and i want to keep the soil for no till after i m done. So here is my question how do i store the soil for the next run( i can only do 1 to 2 a year). Do i have to water the containers with the soil on a regular base and keep the soil alive or do i need to plant some cover corp or can i leave the pots just in the dark and let them dry out? Sorry for being off topic!!! And thanks for your help!!!


In my experience, if you want to go from a recycled living soil to a no till situation cover crops are very important. Clover is a great one to use.


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## Magdup (Sep 17, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> In my experience, if you want to go from a recycled living soil to a no till situation cover crops are very important. Clover is a great one to use.


Thank u. So just to get it right i cut my plants down than i plant my cover corps and keep those alive for the rest of the year until i start with the next run?


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## Magdup (Sep 17, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> In my experience, if you want to go from a recycled living soil to a no till situation cover crops are very important. Clover is a great one to use.


Thank u. So just to get it right i cut my plants down than i plant my cover corps and keep those alive for the rest of the year until i start with the next run?t


hillbill said:


> Keep it moist, not soggy and store in Sterlite or Rubbermaid bins and open lid and remove as needed. I have used bins of 18 to 30 gallons for ten years. Can be stored drier. I just now scooped out enough used mix to start seeds this morning from a bin on the back deck.


Thank you but isnt that more recycling than no till?


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## hillbill (Sep 17, 2017)

Magdup said:


> Thank u. So just to get it right i cut my plants down than i plant my cover corps and keep those alive for the rest of the year until i start with the next run?t
> 
> Thank you but isnt that more recycling than no till?


Sorry, clumsy reading. Carry on. Posted in two forums by old stoner.


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## MrKnotty (Sep 17, 2017)

Magdup said:


> Thank u. So just to get it right i cut my plants down than i plant my cover corps and keep those alive for the rest of the year until i start with the next run?


Yes sir...and make sure that you mulch the clover back into the pots. I would also suggest starting a comfrey garden. Mulching comfrey into your no till pots is pretty much the greatest thing in the world. It will really make your ladies happy. Good luck!


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## Magdup (Sep 17, 2017)

Thanks a lot!!!!


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## Mazer (Sep 20, 2017)

Dear Gentlefolks,
I have claw fingers. I understand it comes from too much N. How do I mediate this? I am on my second run.
My first soil batch must have had the same problem as the buds came out very airy. Yet the overall smoke/flavor/texture was fantastibulous.

LessNingly yours,
M


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## hillbill (Sep 20, 2017)

Could be a bit too wet maybe.


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## Mazer (Sep 21, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Could be a bit too wet maybe.


Dear hillbill,
Thank you for your answer. I am very cautious with watering. Every now and then when I get a bit too enthusiastic with my teas applications and water gushes out everywhere, I make sure the top one and a half inches are dry to the touch before I rewater the plants. Hence, over watering is highly unlikely.

So again, any suggestion on how to mediate my probably high N levels?

SuckingTheNOutOfMySoillingly yours,
M


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## hillbill (Sep 21, 2017)

What color green are the leaves?


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## MrKnotty (Sep 21, 2017)




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## MrKnotty (Sep 21, 2017)

Loving the ROLS!!!!!


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## Magdup (Sep 21, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> View attachment 4014133


Nice one


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## Mazer (Sep 21, 2017)

hillbill said:


> What color green are the leaves?


Dear hillbill, the leaves are a nice rich deep green. I will try to post a pic.

GetTheNoffOfMelingly yours,
M


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 23, 2017)

Could someone tell me if I can use powdered carribean coral as phosphorus for flowering stage. This is my first post please forgive me for posting in the wrong place I'm not familiar with this site.


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## Mohican (Sep 24, 2017)

I don't think it will be available to the plants right away. I use a dose of Mad Farmer MOAB once or twice in flower.


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 24, 2017)

Thanks for the replies. I understand that it won't be available right away. However i hammered it ground it then blended it with water and strained the juice. It has no particles and is still cloudy after 12 hours I'm hoping this will be available much quicker. 

I have two females out of four seeds. One is much bigger than the other and the smaller one is flowering much quicker.

I'm going to blend up some chicken bones and strain it the same as I understand bones have lots of phosphorus 

I will up some photos soon


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 24, 2017)

They need watering but I need to wait for sunset so my neighbour's can not see as it is on the roof


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 24, 2017)

The humidity where I live is all ways above 85 percent and sometimes gets as high as 95 as I live by the beach. Will this be a problem for flowering? Their is all ways a good strong breeze


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## Mohican (Sep 24, 2017)

I use kelp meal and phosphoric acid. I do use bone and blood every year to keep the soil supplied. I have been working the garden for 20 years.


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 24, 2017)

Mohican said:


> I use kelp meal and phosphoric acid. I do use bone and blood every year to keep the soil supplied. I have been working the garden for 20 years.


Do you make all your own ferts


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## Mohican (Sep 24, 2017)

No, I just started composting 4 years ago. Still dialing it in. When I am crunched for time I use the Alaska solid food for veggies.


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## MrKnotty (Sep 25, 2017)

Mexican bagseeder said:


> Do you make all your own ferts


If you are into making your own fertilizer, check out theunconventionalfarmer.com Gill has a fermented plant extract bloom recipe on there. I just warn to travel that road with caution. I have let some fermentations get way to strong and burned my plants. Also, a Valerian root tea has a nice phosphorous punch to it too. No need to ferment that one either. Hope this helps!

Peace


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## Magdup (Sep 25, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> If you are into making your own fertilizer, check out theunconventionalfarmer.com Gill has a fermented plant extract bloom recipe on there. I just warn to travel that road with caution. I have let some fermentations get way to strong and burned my plants. Also, a Valerian root tea has a nice phosphorous punch to it too. No need to ferment that one either. Hope this helps!
> 
> Peace


Thanks for that link bro!!!!


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## Mohican (Sep 25, 2017)

That is an awesome link!     
Thank you!

I can't wait to make the fish hydrolysate!

Cheers,
Mo


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## Magdup (Sep 25, 2017)

Mohican said:


> That is an awesome link!
> Thank you!
> 
> I can't wait to make the fish hydrolysate!
> ...


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## Magdup (Sep 25, 2017)

Mohican said:


> That is an awesome link!
> Thank you!
> 
> I can't wait to make the fish hydrolysate!
> ...


I click grow fertilizer then learn to make your own fish hydrolysate and some japanese site pops up ¿¿¿


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## MrKnotty (Sep 25, 2017)

Magdup said:


> I click grow fertilizer then learn to make your own fish hydrolysate and some japanese site pops up ¿¿¿


If your having trouble with Gills site, you can search the Web for free PDFs of Dr. Cho's Korean Natural Farming. It's a really badass manual, and there is way more info than unconventional farmer. I just really like how simple Gill lays things out and always send folks there first. Dr. Cho knows whats going on for sure too though.


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## Mohican (Sep 25, 2017)

Did you use the address theunconventionalfarmer.com?


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 25, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> If you are into making your own fertilizer, check out theunconventionalfarmer.com Gill has a fermented plant extract bloom recipe on there. I just warn to travel that road with caution. I have let some fermentations get way to strong and burned my plants. Also, a Valerian root tea has a nice phosphorous punch to it too. No need to ferment that one either. Hope this helps!
> 
> Peace


Just the kind of thing I was looking for. I all ways like to make things myself especially when it comes to organics.

Today I found some tiny white spots on my plant. It's not spider mites I know ow for sure. The spots are super white it almost looks like splashes of paint but really small.

Any thoughts?

I've searched the web but everything just says mites


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## Magdup (Sep 25, 2017)

Yes


Mohican said:


> Did you use the address theunconventionalfarmer.com?


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## Mazer (Sep 26, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> If your having trouble with Gills site, you can search the Web for free PDFs of Dr. Cho's Korean Natural Farming. It's a really badass manual, and there is way more info than unconventional farmer. I just really like how simple Gill lays things out and always send folks there first. Dr. Cho knows whats going on for sure too though.


Dear MrKnotty,
Thanks for the information. is this the book you are referring to? 
https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf 

MasterCho-ingly yours,
M


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## MrKnotty (Sep 26, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear MrKnotty,
> Thanks for the information. is this the book you are referring to?
> https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf
> 
> ...


Yes sir that is the one


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## MrKnotty (Sep 26, 2017)

Mexican bagseeder said:


> Just the kind of thing I was looking for. I all ways like to make things myself especially when it comes to organics.
> 
> Today I found some tiny white spots on my plant. It's not spider mites I know ow for sure. The spots are super white it almost looks like splashes of paint but really small.
> 
> ...


Well if you have scoped your plants 10 times and still haven't found a mite, and seriously look at least 10 separate times, then it could be a minor burn from a foilar spray or bug prevention. I know that sometimes if I make a bug spray too strong I will see tiny white dots. Doesn't usually affect the plant too much though. Mites are a real bitch though, so check alot to be really sure it's not the case.


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## Mohican (Sep 26, 2017)

Spraying water on the leaves under strong lights can cause some burn spots on leaves. Or maybe they got a splash of some strong chemical like bleach.


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## Mazer (Sep 26, 2017)

Dear Gentlefolks,
Forgive me for being insistent but the "Claw" is truly bothering me. I am fairly certain it is caused by N toxicity (what a horrendous term!) 
I have a fairly simple routine. Every week I water once with SST (mugo, alfalfa, or diastatic barley), once with a Worm Compost tea, and once with coco water. When in vegg I also use a foliar spray of fermented plant extract (neetle, comfrey, horstail) every other day+ a weekly neem oil foliar application.
Should I stop adding anything but water to the soil? do the SSTs, WTC, Coco contribute to the high levels of N?
I am out of ideas. Any suggestions on how to reduce the N in my soil would be more than welcome. I understand it is a bit unorthodox to try to lower N but I am extremely reluctant on disposing of a soil mix that cost me about a week salary and starting anew.

ClipTheClawingly yours,
M


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## MrKnotty (Sep 26, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear Gentlefolks,
> Forgive me for being insistent but the "Claw" is truly bothering me. I am fairly certain it is caused by N toxicity (what a horrendous term!)
> I have a fairly simple routine. Every week I water once with SST (mugo, alfalfa, or diastatic barley), once with a Worm Compost tea, and once with coco water. When in vegg I also use a foliar spray of fermented plant extract (neetle, comfrey, horstail) every other day+ a weekly neem oil foliar application.
> Should I stop adding anything but water to the soil? do the SSTs, WTC, Coco contribute to the high levels of N?
> ...


Your leaves really aren't that dark I doubt you have a nitrogen toxicity. You can get that claw from over watering too.


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## Magdup (Sep 26, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear Gentlefolks,
> Forgive me for being insistent but the "Claw" is truly bothering me. I am fairly certain it is caused by N toxicity (what a horrendous term!)
> I have a fairly simple routine. Every week I water once with SST (mugo, alfalfa, or diastatic barley), once with a Worm Compost tea, and once with coco water. When in vegg I also use a foliar spray of fermented plant extract (neetle, comfrey, horstail) every other day+ a weekly neem oil foliar application.
> Should I stop adding anything but water to the soil? do the SSTs, WTC, Coco contribute to the high levels of N?
> ...


I m not the most experienced grower here but this is what i found in jorge cervantes marijuana horticulture about to much N: your plants will grow a lot of leaves which a very weak and spongy pests and fungi are very likley to show up stems are getting weak and will snap. Cure: flush the pots with 3 times the volume of your pot sice.
In your case i would recommend transplanting since i also think your girls are overwatered.( i overwatered mine once and a month after i cut them down and left the pots in my room with low humidity the soil was still moist and warm in the inside of the pot wehn i dumped it)


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 27, 2017)

Mohican said:


> Spraying water on the leaves under strong lights can cause some burn spots on leaves. Or maybe they got a splash of some strong chemical like bleach.


Aaaah maybe its that. It gets pretty hot here, some days it gets to forty degrees C


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## Mexican bagseeder (Sep 27, 2017)

Thanks for all the responses

I will upload some more photos as the grow continues, it's going to be a long journey as I'm sure the strain is a heavy sativa dominant


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## MrKnotty (Sep 27, 2017)

I'm wondering if any of my fellow organic enthusiasts have substituted coconut flour for young coconuts/coconut water. I think using coconut flour would be much more cost efficient, though I'm sure it doesn't deliver quite the punch as fresh. However, if it's on the same level as Aloe 200x as far as effectiveness it could be worth using. If coconut flour is simply ground coconut pulp my hunch is that there should be some benefit from using it. I'm very interested if anyone has any inputs! I also started an experiment yesterday on some plants so we will see!!

Peace


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## Mazer (Sep 28, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> Your leaves really aren't that dark I doubt you have a nitrogen toxicity. You can get that claw from over watering too.


Dear MrKnotty,
I always stick my finger in the pot to make sure the first inch and a half are dry. So then again I truly doubt I am over watering. I wish you are right ad my soil mix is not too hot.

Dryingly yours,
M


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## Mazer (Sep 28, 2017)

Magdup said:


> I m not the most experienced grower here but this is what i found in jorge cervantes marijuana horticulture about to much N: your plants will grow a lot of leaves which a very weak and spongy pests and fungi are very likley to show up stems are getting weak and will snap. Cure: flush the pots with 3 times the volume of your pot sice.
> In your case i would recommend transplanting since i also think your girls are overwatered.( i overwatered mine once and a month after i cut them down and left the pots in my room with low humidity the soil was still moist and warm in the inside of the pot wehn i dumped it)


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## Mazer (Sep 28, 2017)

Magdup said:


> I m not the most experienced grower here but this is what i found in jorge cervantes marijuana horticulture about to much N: your plants will grow a lot of leaves which a very weak and spongy pests and fungi are very likley to show up stems are getting weak and will snap. Cure: flush the pots with 3 times the volume of your pot sice.
> In your case i would recommend transplanting since i also think your girls are overwatered.( i overwatered mine once and a month after i cut them down and left the pots in my room with low humidity the soil was still moist and warm in the inside of the pot wehn i dumped it)


Dear Magdup,
See my previous post about over watering. My plants are very leafy. Yet, the stems seem strong. I doubt flushing my soil that has no chem ferts will remove the excess N. Is it possible to flush in Rols?

Flushingly yours,
M


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## Magdup (Sep 28, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear Magdup,
> See my previous post about over watering. My plants are very leafy. Yet, the stems seem strong. I doubt flushing my soil that has no chem ferts will remove the excess N. Is it possible to flush in Rols?
> 
> Flushingly yours,
> M


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## Magdup (Sep 28, 2017)

I think you r right with the flushing. Maybe transplanting into plain organic soil can still help so the roots can go somwher with not so high N levels. But thats just an idea.


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## Magdup (Sep 28, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear Magdup,
> See my previous post about over watering. My plants are very leafy. Yet, the stems seem strong. I doubt flushing my soil that has no chem ferts will remove the excess N. Is it possible to flush in Rols?
> 
> Flushingly yours,
> M


http://forums2.gardenweb.com/discussions/1662817/removing-nitrogen-from-soil


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## calliandra (Oct 15, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear Gentlefolks,
> Forgive me for being insistent but the "Claw" is truly bothering me. I am fairly certain it is caused by N toxicity (what a horrendous term!)
> I have a fairly simple routine. Every week I water once with SST (mugo, alfalfa, or diastatic barley), once with a Worm Compost tea, and once with coco water. When in vegg I also use a foliar spray of fermented plant extract (neetle, comfrey, horstail) every other day+ a weekly neem oil foliar application.
> Should I stop adding anything but water to the soil? do the SSTs, WTC, Coco contribute to the high levels of N?
> ...


Ah I have seen this too, unfortunately I don't have an answer (yet? haha).
From what is visible on the pix, otherwise your plants are doing great, is that correct?!
Then I'd just let them go.
You can get rid of your nitrogen by adding carbon-heavy material btw. (as Magdup kindly shared a link to ).
But I agree with those who have said it's probably not really an N issue.

One thing I learned obsessing about those curly tips is, that if the cause is overwatering, they won't be uncurling anymore. That is, your conditions may have returned to ideal, but you will continue seeing those signs that appeared when they dipped under, they won't reverse.
In my case, I saw how the affected leaves were about the same age - older and younger leaves not having those symptoms, and finally concluded I must've messed up sometime and not noticed.
lol maybe I was just fed up with thinking about it inconclusively 
Cheers!


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## Mexican bagseeder (Oct 15, 2017)

Hello herbalists...... I thought I would just share what I've been doing. Recently I made fermented fruit juice consisting of bannana peel, papaya skin, grated potatoe, melon skin, watermelon skin, carrot skin and cucumber skin with Chia seeds and bone meal as extras.

I let it ferment for about 7 days the process was quick because it's really hot here.... Anyway it seems to work. I gave some to the girls yesterday and today I have already seen a explosion in growth especially with the pistols..

The smell of the fertilizer really does smell like organic farmness I love it. I will be making similar mixes throughout the whole process. 

Im also making some LAB which will be ready in about a week 

I will post some pics of the girls soon


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## bizfactory (Oct 15, 2017)

Mexican bagseeder said:


> Hello herbalists...... I thought I would just share what I've been doing. Recently I made fermented fruit juice consisting of bannana peel, papaya skin, grated potatoe, melon skin, watermelon skin, carrot skin and cucumber skin with Chia seeds and bone meal as extras.
> 
> I let it ferment for about 7 days the process was quick because it's really hot here.... Anyway it seems to work. I gave some to the girls yesterday and today I have already seen a explosion in growth especially with the pistols..
> 
> ...


KNF is the truth! Although pretty sure I'd have the dank with just the soil alone, it's a really nice supplement. My go to is comfrey FPJ and I use LAB at least once a week regardless.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> KNF is the truth! Although pretty sure I'd have the dank with just the soil alone, it's a really nice supplement. My go to is comfrey FPJ and I use LAB at least once a week regardless.


I've strayed away from knf and made my journey back to jadam. Adding water and sealing containers allows the microbes multiply. Sugar only (knf) traps the microbes to the point that they go dormant. Thats why knf fpj's and ffj's have to be mixed with a nutrient source like labs when being used.

I make fpe's with labs and water instead of just straight brown sugar.


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## Mexican bagseeder (Oct 16, 2017)

What is knf I haven't heard of this yet...... Time for a Google search


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## SCJedi (Oct 16, 2017)

Mexican bagseeder said:


> What is knf I haven't heard of this yet...... Time for a Google search


It is a Korean natural farming technique


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2017)

Mexican bagseeder said:


> What is knf I haven't heard of this yet...... Time for a Google search


KNF is Korean natural farming founded by Dr. Han-Kyu Cho. Then his son Young-Sang Cho founded and wrote the book on Jadam Natural Farming which is the revised tech of KNF


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## bizfactory (Oct 16, 2017)

hyroot said:


> KNF is Korean natural farming founded by Dr. Han-Kyu Cho. Then his son Young-Sang Cho founded and wrote the book on Jadam Natural Farming which is the revised tech of KNF





hyroot said:


> I've strayed away from knf and made my journey back to jadam. Adding water and sealing containers allows the microbes multiply. Sugar only (knf) traps the microbes to the point that they go dormant. Thats why knf fpj's and ffj's have to be mixed with a nutrient source like labs when being used.
> 
> I make fpe's with labs and water instead of just straight brown sugar.


Got any good sources for Jadam info? Looks like there is an ebook for $43 but not ready to spend that just yet.

You said FPJ and FFJ need a "nutrient source like labs". I've never heard LAB to be a nutrient source. Wouldn't that be the FPJ/FFJ and LAB would be the microbe source?

What triggered you to move on to Jadam? I definitely don't go full KNF and am open to trying it out for sure.


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## MrKnotty (Oct 16, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Got any good sources for Jadam info? Looks like there is an ebook for $43 but not ready to spend that just yet.
> 
> You said FPJ and FFJ need a "nutrient source like labs". I've never heard LAB to be a nutrient source. Wouldn't that be the FPJ/FFJ and LAB would be the microbe source?
> 
> What triggered you to move on to Jadam? I definitely don't go full KNF and am open to trying it out for sure.


There is a free pdf of chos Korean Natural Farming. A simple Google search will find you the pdf. @hyroot all this chatting of FPE'S made me get the itch to get busy. I have 3 jars of nettles nw fermenting in the cupboard. I forgot how much the nettles stink during this process.

Peace!


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## bizfactory (Oct 16, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> There is a free pdf of chos Korean Natural Farming. A simple Google search will find you the pdf. @hyroot all this chatting of FPE'S made me get the itch to get busy. I have 3 jars of nettles nw fermenting in the cupboard. I forgot how much the nettles stink during this process.
> 
> Peace!


A simple read through my post will see I'm looking for JADAM specific info, not chosnaturalfarming.pdf or whatever. Thanks though.

@hyroot I found the JADAM book on the PFA files section. Gonna read through it in the next few days. What is the replacement for FPJ/FFJ...JMS perhaps?


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Got any good sources for Jadam info? Looks like there is an ebook for $43 but not ready to spend that just yet.



https://books.google.com/books/about/JADAM_Organic_Farming.html?id=32NtDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false

I also bought the hard copy. Same price.



bizfactory said:


> What triggered you to move on to Jadam? I definitely don't go full KNF and am open to trying it out for sure.


I started following Gils recipes originally. Which are mainly jadam based. Then I followed Cho's knf recipes. Then because of cost I followed the the actual jadam recipes. 25 lbs. of organic brown sugar is pretty pricey to only end up with only 2 - 3 gallons of ffj. Where I can use only a pint of labs and 3 - 4 gallons of water to make 4 - 5 gallons of fpe that has a much larger microbial population.

Around then I learned that knf and jadam are essentially the same. Jadam is just a revised version. If you go to the seminars in Hawaii. Both Son and Papa Cho teach their methods back to back.

Yeah it takes 4 - 5 weeks to make activated labs from the start. I have 2 gallons of concentrate in the fridge and 10 gallons of activated labs under my sink. Once the labs gets going you're swimming in labs for a while. I even gave away a gallon of labs and a gallon of fpe yesterday to @SomeGuy



bizfactory said:


> You said FPJ and FFJ need a "nutrient source like labs". I've never heard LAB to be a nutrient source. Wouldn't that be the FPJ/FFJ and LAB would be the microbe source?


Mainly a nutrient source or food stock for microbes.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> A simple read through my post will see I'm looking for JADAM specific info, not chosnaturalfarming.pdf or whatever. Thanks though.
> 
> @hyroot I found the JADAM book on the PFA files section. Gonna read through it in the next few days. What is the replacement for FPJ/FFJ...JMS perhaps?



You're just using activated labs instead of sugar, but in a smaller amounts and lots of water. Basically the recipe Roberto slapped his name on. The ffj or fpj becomes fpe. What acronym goes to what ferment is kind of funny


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## MrKnotty (Oct 17, 2017)

I do think it's important for everyone to know that you really dont even need the activated labs to create an fpe. Most plants and herbs can be fermented with just water. This is almost certainly not the case with fruits and such, but I have very limited experience with fruits. I have made the flower fpe from Gills site, but I really prefer a simpler fpe of comfrey over it. You can literally just use water and plant material for almost any herb/weed what have you. The activated labs definitely speed up the process,.and can help control the smell for sure. I suggest experimenting with all forms. My go to ferment process now is just water, and depending on my mood a dash of molasses. Less than a TBS for a half gallon of water. Also, there is a great thread on FPE'S on icmag. Guy that goes by jaykush really knows his shit. Happy playing!

Peace


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## bizfactory (Oct 17, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> I do think it's important for everyone to know that you really dont even need the activated labs to create an fpe. Most plants and herbs can be fermented with just water. This is almost certainly not the case with fruits and such, but I have very limited experience with fruits. I have made the flower fpe from Gills site, but I really prefer a simpler fpe of comfrey over it. You can literally just use water and plant material for almost any herb/weed what have you. The activated labs definitely speed up the process,.and can help control the smell for sure. I suggest experimenting with all forms. My go to ferment process now is just water, and depending on my mood a dash of molasses. Less than a TBS for a half gallon of water. Also, there is a great thread on FPE'S on icmag. Guy that goes by jaykush really knows his shit. Happy playing!
> 
> Peace





hyroot said:


> https://books.google.com/books/about/JADAM_Organic_Farming.html?id=32NtDQAAQBAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false
> 
> I also bought the hard copy. Same price.
> 
> ...



Thanks guys! Funny that I actually started with the unconventional farmer as well. Seems like his site kinda shit the bed though lol. I'll give the fpe a try on my next ferment. I have never tried the activated LABs either, just the serum 1:1 with sugar/molasses so I'll try out Roberto's recipe as well.


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## Mazer (Oct 18, 2017)

calliandra said:


> Ah I have seen this too, unfortunately I don't have an answer (yet? haha).
> From what is visible on the pix, otherwise your plants are doing great, is that correct?!
> Then I'd just let them go.
> You can get rid of your nitrogen by adding carbon-heavy material btw. (as Magdup kindly shared a link to ).
> ...


Dear Calliandra,
Thank you for your reply! you are right the plants are doing well besides the Claw. I will try to have a closer look to see if the curled leaves are indeed form the same generation.
I am keeping a close watch on my watering so I might have over-watered once or twice and that would explain this. and would corroborate you thesis.

I will keep you posted.

Uncurlingly yours,
M


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## Mazer (Oct 18, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Got any good sources for Jadam info? Looks like there is an ebook for $43 but not ready to spend that just yet.
> 
> You said FPJ and FFJ need a "nutrient source like labs". I've never heard LAB to be a nutrient source. Wouldn't that be the FPJ/FFJ and LAB would be the microbe source?
> 
> What triggered you to move on to Jadam? I definitely don't go full KNF and am open to trying it out for sure.


Dear bizfactory, 
you can have a look at the following link for "Cho's Global Natural Farming" Interesting read and amusing grammar/syntax.

http://www.cgnfindia.com/books/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf

KNFingly yours,
M


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2017)

Mazer said:


> Dear bizfactory,
> you can have a look at the following link for "Cho's Global Natural Farming" Interesting read and amusing grammar/syntax.
> 
> http://www.cgnfindia.com/books/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf
> ...



Reread his post. He wasn't asking about KNF he was asking about Jadam tech. His following post he said he found a link to the book on Jadam Farming


----------



## Mazer (Oct 19, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Reread his post. He wasn't asking about KNF he was asking about Jadam tech. His following post he said he found a link to the book on Jadam Farming


Dear hyroot and all,
Sorry for the mistake. I was out of focus .
Soberingly yours,
M


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## keepsake (Oct 20, 2017)

hyroot said:


> You're just using activated labs instead of sugar, but in a smaller amounts and lots of water. Basically the recipe Roberto slapped his name on. The ffj or fpj becomes fpe. What acronym goes to what ferment is kind of funny


So, I have 4 plants in 5 gal hard pots that I will flower soon. I've been growing them with bottled nutes and happy frog soil. I've prepped some living soil with bokashi and EM1 water. I see bits of mycelium growing in the soil so I think that's a good sign of living soil.

I want to flush them, transplant them into 7gal fabric pots with my prepped living soil, flip the lights, and finish the run organically. I've been doing a whole bunch of reading and I plan to do FFJ with fruits that are high in P&K to help them bloom. Do you think this is a good idea? I hope so, I don't want to finish the run with bottled nutes. 

I am currently making some Activated EM. I did a 1:1:20 mix with EM1, molasses, and water. It is fermenting in a 1gal jar with an air lock. From what I know that's considered LAB too, right?

Can you give me some suggestions or recipes I can do to help my plant thru flower?


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## Fastslappy (Oct 21, 2017)

10 yards of dairy,horse ,Green waste certified organic compost ,it's still hot lol
My back hurts & I'm not anywhere done
This will be base for Clackamas Coot's mix,
The base for a worm compost pile
Also base start two new ewc bins
The rest will go into any container I got
Then the rest goes to the comfrey patches
Soooo this has been thermo composted
And I'll dbl compost some into soil
It's also prime base for worms I'd boost it with fig leaves & comfrey ,neem , grains,


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## swedsteven (Oct 21, 2017)

Fastslappy said:


> View attachment 4030513
> View attachment 4030514
> 
> 10 yards of dairy,horse ,Green waste certified organic compost ,it's still hot lol
> ...


Bbig pile off shit lol


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## MrKnotty (Oct 22, 2017)

keepsake said:


> So, I have 4 plants in 5 gal hard pots that I will flower soon. I've been growing them with bottled nutes and happy frog soil. I've prepped some living soil with bokashi and EM1 water. I see bits of mycelium growing in the soil so I think that's a good sign of living soil.
> 
> I want to flush them, transplant them into 7gal fabric pots with my prepped living soil, flip the lights, and finish the run organically. I've been doing a whole bunch of reading and I plan to do FFJ with fruits that are high in P&K to help them bloom. Do you think this is a good idea? I hope so, I don't want to finish the run with bottled nutes.
> 
> ...


If you are interested in making a FPE I will always recommend comfrey. Comfrey, water, and a splash of molasses. I use less than a tablespoon for a half gallon. I keep my jar sealed, and I open it twice a day, so it won't explode. Let it sit for a month this way. Dilute and use. Start with a tsp per gallon and work ur way up. I can't tell you how strong it will be, that depends on how you make it. Good luck!


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## MrKnotty (Oct 22, 2017)

@keepsake also some other herbs to focus on for your run.....yarrow, chamomile, Valerian and dandelion. Don't sleep on making a simple kelp meal tea also. That works wonders....I use an alfalfa and kelp tea through first 3 weeks of flower.Then drop the alfalfa till their finished.

Peace!


----------



## Mohican (Oct 22, 2017)

Kelp meal is awesome in flower! Banana peels are great too. I still use a dose of Mad Farmer MOAB when I need to give a PK boost in flower. The only thing that comes close organically for me has been a thick layer of Kelp meal.


----------



## calliandra (Oct 22, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> If you are interested in making a FPE I will always recommend comfrey. Comfrey, water, and a splash of molasses. I use less than a tablespoon for a half gallon. I keep my jar sealed, and I open it twice a day, so it won't explode. Let it sit for a month this way. Dilute and use. Start with a tsp per gallon and work ur way up. I can't tell you how strong it will be, that depends on how you make it. Good luck!


Ah this could be an excellent way to have access to comfrey over the long winter here!
Excellent idea, and so timely, I had just begun going through other possibilities - besides indoor pot culture, still #1 on my list, but it does come with a space problem, which your recipe doesn't 



MrKnotty said:


> @keepsake also some other herbs to focus on for your run.....yarrow, chamomile, Valerian and dandelion. Don't sleep on making a simple kelp meal tea also. That works wonders....I use an alfalfa and kelp tea through first 3 weeks of flower.Then drop the alfalfa till their finished.
> 
> Peace!


Ah this makes total sense!
If I may pick your mind just a little bit more, what do you think of fresh sprouts juice for veg? 

Cheers!


----------



## MrKnotty (Oct 22, 2017)

calliandra said:


> Ah this could be an excellent way to have access to comfrey over the long winter here!
> Excellent idea, and so timely, I had just begun going through other possibilities - besides indoor pot culture, still #1 on my list, but it does come with a space problem, which your recipe doesn't
> 
> 
> ...



So I am a huge advocate of Sprouted Seed Teas, or SST for short. I make at least one a week for the whole plants life cycle. Next year I will be doing two every week I think. But I rotate my SST'S between wheatgrass and barley. And I also switch my process up sometimes too. Sometimes after I blend up the sprouts, I let them sit for about 3 days then feed. I read Cootz did it this way in the beginning. Most of the time though I just blend up the sprouts, strain, add to my 55 gallon drum of water with some TM7 and aloe. AMAZING! There is a great thread on this site if you are unsure of the process. SST V.2.0 is my main method. Hope this helps!

Peace!


----------



## calliandra (Oct 22, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> So I am a huge advocate of Sprouted Seed Teas, or SST for short. I make at least one a week for the whole plants life cycle. Next year I will be doing two every week I think. But I rotate my SST'S between wheatgrass and barley. And I also switch my process up sometimes too. Sometimes after I blend up the sprouts, I let them sit for about 3 days then feed. I read Cootz did it this way in the beginning. Most of the time though I just blend up the sprouts, strain, add to my 55 gallon drum of water with some TM7 and aloe. AMAZING! There is a great thread on this site if you are unsure of the process. SST V.2.0 is my main method. Hope this helps!
> 
> Peace!


Throughout the grow, interesting!
My thoughts have been to only use sprouts in the beginning, when the plant I'm growing is focusing on growth.

But _otoh... _there is always some sort of growth going on, even in flower. And as I understand it at the moment, plant growth is very unspecific in the beginning (meristematic cells who then can become just about anything? if I remember correctly), so yeah, why shouldn't those enzymes and stuff still be useful later in the grow too? 

Oh and I actually found an entry incl. scientific background courtesy of Cann on this very thread: https://www.rollitup.org/t/recycled-organic-living-soil-rols-and-no-till-thread.636057/page-26#post-9069592
very nice!!

Turns out I've unknowingly being making a "sloppier" version of SST V2.0's myself, only that I will use just about any seeds - at the mo it's a mix with mung beans n radishes meant for people to eat lol

Cheers!


----------



## hyroot (Oct 23, 2017)

keepsake said:


> So, I have 4 plants in 5 gal hard pots that I will flower soon. I've been growing them with bottled nutes and happy frog soil. I've prepped some living soil with bokashi and EM1 water. I see bits of mycelium growing in the soil so I think that's a good sign of living soil.
> 
> I want to flush them, transplant them into 7gal fabric pots with my prepped living soil, flip the lights, and finish the run organically. I've been doing a whole bunch of reading and I plan to do FFJ with fruits that are high in P&K to help them bloom. Do you think this is a good idea? I hope so, I don't want to finish the run with bottled nutes.


That will work. You'll be fine. The microbes will bioremediate the soil.



keepsake said:


> I am currently making some Activated EM. I did a 1:1:20 mix with EM1, molasses, and water. It is fermenting in a 1gal jar with an air lock. From what I know that's considered LAB too, right?


Labs is fermented milk (whey) and rice wash . Em1 is a proprietary brand by Teraganix that contains labs, yeast, and photosynthetic bacteria.



keepsake said:


> Can you give me some suggestions or recipes I can do to help my plant thru flower?


*LABS* *:*

Step 1: Rice Wash


1 Cup of Rice

1 Cup of Clean Chlorine-free water

1 Pint Jar w lid

1 Coffee Filter



Place Water and Rice in Jar.
Secure lid on Jar
Shake Jar for 5 minutes
Strain out the rice and keep the white water
Place 1 coffee filter on top of jar and secure the band without the lid so it can breath.
Place Jar (on top of your fridge) at room temperature.
Wait 1 week for bacteria from the air to fall into your jar.
Make 2 just in case you get contaminated.
After 1 week strain Rice wash through a strainer and place the lid on securely.
Your Rice wash is now full of microbes and ready for step 2 (Lab













Step 2: LABS (Lactic Acid Bacteria Serum)


1 Part Rice Wash (1 cup)

10 Parts Milk (½ Gallon)

1 Gallon Glass Jug (Apple Juice Jug)

3 Coffee Filters

1 Rubber band



Place rice wash and milk in the jug
Give it a swirl/mix.
Cut the 3 coffee Filters in half and now you got 6 halves.
Place the filters on top of the jug and secure with a rubber band.
Place the Jug on top of the fridge.
Wait 1 week for the Separation to occur of the Lactic Acid Bacteria Serum.
After 1 week Strain and Separate the Serum from the Curd (Cheese).
The Yellow Liquid is called Lactic Acid Bacteria Serum (LABS)
The Cheese can be used as a top dressing for your Flowering Plants Soil.
Proceed to Step 3.





























Step 3: AEM1 (Activated Essential Micro Organisms)

1 Part LABS (1 Quart)

1 Part Molasses (1 Quart)

20 Parts Non-Chlorine Water

1 5 Gallon Carboy Glass Jug

1 Air Lock

1 Stopper


Place Water, Molasses and Labs in the 5 Gallon Jug or Bucket.
Mix
Secure Tight the Air Lock and Stopper on Jug .
Don’t Forget to add water to the Air Lock.
Place the Jug back in the box it came in.
Place Box in the Flowering room for 3 weeks to diffuse CO2 Gas to the plants.
After brewing for 3 weeks test the Ph to be 3.5 Ph.
After testing make sure there is no more pressure produced from the brew.
Pour solution in Jars and secure the lid tight.
Store Jars at room Temperature for 3 Months Max.
Feed Plants from all stages at a rate of 1 Pint of Activated Essential Micro Organisms x 5 Gallons of clean water.

























Step 4: Flower Power


1 Quart of Activated LABS

4.5 Gallons of Non-Chlorine Water

1 5 Gallon Bucket

Organic Matter (Flowers,Fruits,Vegetables,Coconuts,Bugs,Pumpkins,Bananas)

No MEAT

No Citrus



Place All your Organic Matter in the bucket and add water with LABS.
Mix
Cover bucket
Let it sit outside when the weather is 40+ degrees.
After 3 weeks of Fermenting it should have a White Layer on top of the water.
Mix
Let it sit another week to ferment further.
Now its been 1 mth go ahead and take out 1 Quart of solution and replace with 1 Quart of clean Non-Chlorine Water.
Go Ahead and Add the 1 Quart Solution of Flower Power to 5 Gallons of Clean Water.
Test your PPM
Week 1 =100 PPM Week 8 = 800 PPM
No Need to Test PH
Don’t foliar feed with this solution.
Feed All Flowering Plant
*Green Plants and Green Veggies - Veg
Red, Yellow, and Orange Fruits - Flower*


----------



## keepsake (Oct 23, 2017)

Thank you.

Week 1 = 100ppm
Week 8 = 800ppm

How do you raise the ppm?
If 1qt to 5gal equals 100ppm, The next batch just add more of the flower power to the same amount of water?

Once I take out 1qt juice and replace with 1qt water, how long til I can take/replace again? 

And how long will the whole thing last for until I need to start the whole thing over?


----------



## hyroot (Oct 23, 2017)

keepsake said:


> Thank you.
> 
> Week 1 = 100ppm
> Week 8 = 800ppm
> ...


Yes that is correct



keepsake said:


> Once I take out 1qt juice and replace with 1qt water, how long til I can take/replace again?
> 
> And how long will the whole thing last for until I need to start the whole thing over?


Well you can keep adding material and labs to it continuously and remove up to 1 gallon every week or you can strain it off after 1 month of fermentation and start another one. I prefer to strain it and compost the left over scraps. Once the liquid is bottled or jar'd up, it will be good up to a year at room temp.

Activated LAB's at room temp is good for 4 months


----------



## keepsake (Oct 24, 2017)

@hyroot 

So, I decided not to transplant and finish organically. I will just finish the run with their nutes. Can I still use flower power FFJ and AEM water?


----------



## hyroot (Oct 24, 2017)

keepsake said:


> @hyroot
> 
> So, I decided not to transplant and finish organically. I will just finish the run with their nutes. Can I still use flower power FFJ and AEM water?


Yeah. The salts and chemicals in the bottled nutes will kill off any microbes. Most liquid nutrient have either phosphoric acid or calcium nitrates as a ph stabilizer. Those will both kill off microbes.


----------



## keepsake (Oct 24, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Yeah. The salts and chemicals in the bottled nutes will kill off any microbes. Most liquid nutrient have either phosphoric acid or calcium nitrates as a ph stabilizer. Those will both kill off microbes.


Seems like most amendments for soil recipes are 1/2 cup per CF.
However, a lot of recipes call for 4 cups per CF for BASALT.

That's still a good thing to follow?


----------



## bizfactory (Oct 25, 2017)

keepsake said:


> Seems like most amendments for soil recipes are 1/2 cup per CF.
> However, a lot of recipes call for 4 cups per CF for BASALT.
> 
> That's still a good thing to follow?


Yes. Can be made up of other dusts/minerals as well as long as the total is around 4c per CF.


----------



## keepsake (Oct 25, 2017)

is gypsum and oyster shell flour considered a rock/dust/mineral?


----------



## Fastslappy (Oct 26, 2017)

keepsake said:


> is gypsum and oyster shell flour considered a rock/dust/mineral?


No
It's considered a calcium additive, gypsum is actually one of the best CA additives as its high in sulfur too
I use oyster,gypsum, dolomite pellets, i like a broad approach to CA.
I never have to cal/mag anymore ,never had lockout since using Clackamas Coots style living soil


----------



## hillbill (Oct 26, 2017)

I also use Soft Rock Phosphate and very fine crushed limestone and have cut back some on Magnesium.


----------



## bizfactory (Oct 26, 2017)

@hyroot do you still use molasses over cane sugar for the AEM and FPEs? Got some fresh serum I'm going to activate and then a comfrey fpe. It's my go to fpj with cane sugar so it will be fun comparing the two.


----------



## Fastslappy (Oct 26, 2017)

I buy brown sugar at this time of year it goes deep sale due to thanksgiving


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## hyroot (Oct 26, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> @hyroot do you still use molasses over cane sugar for the AEM and FPEs? Got some fresh serum I'm going to activate and then a comfrey fpe. It's my go to fpj with cane sugar so it will be fun comparing the two.


For aem I usually use molasses. You can use either. Organic brown sugar is more expensive than organic molasses.
The fpe's I just use the aem.

I just made an aloe fpe and it smelled like dumpster fire sweaty asshole wet shoe homeless person. I let it go a week longer on accident. I don't know if its even good or not. I can't handle the smell.


----------



## Fastslappy (Oct 26, 2017)

hyroot said:


> For aem I usually use molasses. You can use either. Organic brown sugar is more expensive than organic molasses.
> The fpe's I just use the aem.
> 
> I just made an aloe fpe and it smelled like dumpster fire sweaty asshole wet shoe homeless person. I let it go a week longer on accident. I don't know if its even good or not. I can't handle the smell.


Your a braver man than me , some ferments it's instant vomiting, I gotta 5 gallon with comfrey, labs gonna reup with more fresh comfrey here soon that's a smell to gag a maggot


----------



## bizfactory (Oct 26, 2017)

hyroot said:


> I just made an aloe fpe and it smelled like dumpster fire sweaty asshole wet shoe homeless person.


Hahahaha, amazing description. I have extra organic cane sugar so I'll probably use that this round but the molasses is def cheaper for me too. 

It's funny...I started with Gil, moved to Cho's KNF and now I'm circling back around to Gil / Jadam.


----------



## hyroot (Oct 26, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> Hahahaha, amazing description. I have extra organic cane sugar so I'll probably use that this round but the molasses is def cheaper for me too.
> 
> It's funny...I started with Gil, moved to Cho's KNF and now I'm circling back around to Gil / Jadam.


I went the same route. Gil/ jadam / kyeusi recipes are more cost effective. Knf was originally created for poor farmers so they could use whats around them since most of those farmers went into debt from buying fertz. Maybe the crude sugar was super cheap back then. 

To make 2 gallons of knf ffj costs over $50. Organic sugar costs twice as much as c&h sugar. I don't have a source for crude sugar either. Only trader joes and a local organic market which is $2 per lb.

Chris Trump and Dr.Cho say to only use fruits and plants you can pick. Most of us don't live on a ranch in Hawaii or South America or Jamaica and don't have the space or the climate to grow some of those fruits and plants. Smh....


----------



## MrKnotty (Oct 26, 2017)

hyroot said:


> For aem I usually use molasses. You can use either. Organic brown sugar is more expensive than organic molasses.
> The fpe's I just use the aem.
> 
> I just made an aloe fpe and it smelled like dumpster fire sweaty asshole wet shoe homeless person. I let it go a week longer on accident. I don't know if its even good or not. I can't handle the smell.


I have three FPE'S of nettle going, and I swear my wife almost puked today when I opened them. Outside only now haha. At least now she stopped paying attention to the fungal flats I have going. The Nettle FPE'S Smell Way worse


----------



## Mazer (Oct 27, 2017)

hyroot said:


> That will work. You'll be fine.
> *Green Plants and Green Veggies - Veg
> Red, Yellow, and Orange Fruits - Flower*


Dear hyroot,
Thank you for this post. I will Keep it in my favorites!.
Fermentingly yours,
M


----------



## Mohican (Nov 2, 2017)

I watched a video about African Malawi growers who use nothing but urine and ash as fertilizer. They have nothing else. I started burning all of my trim trash and adding the ashes to the compost and soil.

It's great to have you back @hyroot !


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## hillbill (Nov 2, 2017)

I have about 12 gal of oK ash from a tree base that smoldered for days. Mixed in is some sand shoveled up when collecting ash and quite a few pea sized chunks of bio char. Been using this almost a year. Tea made from leafmold seems welcomed by all the plants I've met.


----------



## Fastslappy (Nov 2, 2017)

Pee on yer compost pile lol


----------



## Fastslappy (Nov 2, 2017)

hillbill said:


> I have about 12 gal of oK ash from a tree base that smoldered for days. Mixed in is some sand shoveled up when collecting ash and quite a few pea sized chunks of bio char. Been using this almost a year. Tea made from leafmold seems welcomed by all the plants I've met.


Be careful too much ash will lock up a plant
Happened to me


----------



## hillbill (Nov 2, 2017)

I am very conservative on amendments especially reusing for 6 or 7 years.


----------



## Devildenis69 (Nov 4, 2017)

Hey guys !

First I would like to thanks everyone for their participation to this crazy mass of information, that is this thread 

Just wanted to report my use of FFE, I let ferment some pear skin in 2L of tap water for a week or so, the smell was slightly alcoolic, so I decided to use it only on half of pots and see what happens ...

Few days later the soil went crazy, I saw some pieces of coco moving at the surface, after digging a little I discovered a shit load of tiny white worms (trichrome size), nematodes right ? 
Are they all good guys, whatever brewed in aerated or fermented conditions ?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 4, 2017)

Devildenis69 said:


> Hey guys !
> 
> First I would like to thanks everyone for their participation to this crazy mass of information, that is this thread
> 
> ...



Those are pot worms. They show up in low ph environments. They're not harmful. They're a sign of low ph. 

If you're fermenting fruit in water you need to add either labs / em1 or leaf mold. Those will produce bacteria that will break down the fruit.


----------



## Devildenis69 (Nov 4, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Those are pot worms. They show up in low ph environments. They're not harmful. They're a sign of low ph.
> 
> If you're fermenting fruit in water you need to add either labs / em1 or leaf mold. Those will produce bacteria that will break down the fruit.


Thank you for the info, 'll have to look up more closely into FFE realisation


----------



## hyroot (Nov 4, 2017)

Devildenis69 said:


> Thank you for the info, 'll have to look up more closely into FFE realisation


I posted a lacto recipe for making labs and ffe / fpe 1 page back.


----------



## Mazer (Nov 5, 2017)

hyroot said:


> I posted a lacto recipe for making labs and ffe / fpe 1 page back.


I have to add, soon post #8228 will be a legend. H will you autograph it for me


----------



## hyroot (Nov 5, 2017)

Mazer said:


> I have to add, soon post #8228 will be a legend. H will you autograph it for me


I didn't make that recipe. That's Gil's recipe. A guy by the name of Roberto put together what I had posted.

btw were you ever called fathead or rubber nipples by your friends. just curious based on your name and your sarcastic or facetious comments. I know someone who has the same name with those nick names. He stopped talking to me awhile ago because I didn't vote for Hillary.


----------



## Mazer (Nov 6, 2017)

hyroot said:


> I didn't make that recipe. That's Gil's recipe. A guy by the name of Roberto put together what I had posted.
> 
> btw were you ever called fathead or rubber nipples by your friends. just curious based on your name and your sarcastic or facetious comments. I know someone who has the same name with those nick names. He stopped talking to me awhile ago because I didn't vote for Hillary.


Dear hyroot,
Do trust me when I state that I was being neither "sarcastic" nor " facetious". truly truly mesmerized by post #8228 to the point that I am envisioning tattooing it. Well no! Not Really... now I am being" facetious" Please do forgive my wicked behavior.
I might sound a tad bit "different" (btw I really dislike the "quote on quote" thing) but blame asperger for it.
I am but a noob trying to do good by my lungs, brains, friends, ideal and plants.
You people of the leaf inspire me and help me achieve my goals. And Please do believe me when I say I am thankful for the knowledge you spread.

humbly yours,
M

PS: I did not vote for Hillary neither but please do switch martinez to trump in the following song:


----------



## Chronikool (Nov 14, 2017)

Ninja Fruit - Day 35


----------



## bizfactory (Nov 14, 2017)

Obiwan OG @ 54 days


----------



## Robert "Bob" Dobbs (Nov 22, 2017)

100% organic baby!


----------



## keepsake (Nov 22, 2017)

Robert "Bob" Dobbs said:


> 100% organic baby! View attachment 4046900


Some of the leaf tips around the nodes are yellow... what's causing that?
I ask because mine are doing the same.
Soil may be a little too hot or what?


----------



## Bed Wetter (Nov 24, 2017)

What’s the consensus on red brick shards for aeration?

On the east coast it’s difficult to find aeration materials that make sense for a yard of soil. Old/OG red brick is a material that I have access to that may work. the brick is the remains of my old chimney. 

It would be crushed,screened, and rinsed by myself. 
The second tier of aeration may be biochar and leaf mould, a smaller percentage of pea gravel perhaps. I’ll save the rice hulls for the worms. 



I can alway ship BAS here but If I don’t have to drop $1,500 on a yard of soil, I won’t.


----------



## Mexican bagseeder (Nov 24, 2017)

So today I found webs on my buds but when I looked closer they belonged to a tiny blue spider with yellow spots on its back. Their are about 4 spiders all together. They definitely are not mites they are to big. Will these eat spider mites... I think they will because they are smaller than lady bugs. Any input?


----------



## dubekoms (Nov 24, 2017)

Bed Wetter said:


> What’s the consensus on red brick shards for aeration?
> 
> On the east coast it’s difficult to find aeration materials that make sense for a yard of soil. Old/OG red brick is a material that I have access to that may work. the brick is the remains of my old chimney.
> 
> ...


Rice hulls are super cheap, $10 for 7 cf


----------



## hillbill (Nov 24, 2017)

Mexican bagseeder said:


> So today I found webs on my buds but when I looked closer they belonged to a tiny blue spider with yellow spots on its back. Their are about 4 spiders all together. They definitely are not mites they are to big. Will these eat spider mites... I think they will because they are smaller than lady bugs. Any input?


If it's a spider it’s a predator but may or may not eat mites. It won't eat your plant.


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## Bed Wetter (Nov 24, 2017)

dubekoms said:


> Rice hulls are super cheap, $10 for 7 cf


I hear you but will they last in rols with worms? I was under the impression I would have to add more aeration once they eventually breakdown. 

I can spring for home store red lava rock but I’d still have to toil away for a couple days with a hammer and a quiver of joints. 

Brick might not be the best choice but just putting it out there because they are free and as local as it gets for me.


----------



## Fastslappy (Nov 26, 2017)

Bed Wetter said:


> I hear you but will they last in rols with worms? I was under the impression I would have to add more aeration once they eventually breakdown.
> 
> I can spring for home store red lava rock but I’d still have to toil away for a couple days with a hammer and a quiver of joints.
> 
> Brick might not be the best choice but just putting it out there because they are free and as local as it gets for me.


I'd test it take some soil u know is good mix 25% brick chips throw a seedling in the pot


----------



## Fastslappy (Nov 26, 2017)

U got any feed stores near u that sell to horses ? 
They carry DryStall at $14 a 40 lb bag 
It's 100% mined screened pumice


----------



## sallen35 (Nov 26, 2017)

I love this thread and was doing some follow up research on nitrogen fixing blue-green algae and stumbled upon a PDF about nitrogen fixing cover crops. Its quite extensive. 
I would post link but as new user with no posts or likes yet, I cannot post a link. instead I will suggest a google search string, my apologies if this has already been linked.

Search: Application of nitrogen-fixing systems in soil management


----------



## Tomula (Nov 27, 2017)

Have you ever tried lava rock? The hills of some volcanoes are one of the richest lands on planet.


----------



## Bed Wetter (Nov 27, 2017)

Fastslappy said:


> U got any feed stores near u that sell to horses ?
> They carry DryStall at $14 a 40 lb bag
> It's 100% mined screened pumice


It seems Agway/southernstates don’t carry it anymore, at least on the east coast. Now they do carry stall dry but it’s not pumice.
I’ve contacted the makers of drystall for a distributor in the east but they haven’t gotten back to me.

I have some pups headed to solo’s soon so I’ll test them and continue into larger containers too. There is so much brick out here in general. I suspect it may not perform as well but we’ll see how they turn out.


----------



## Thegermling (Nov 30, 2017)

Hey guys, ive always been an "organic" kind of guy. My last grow was organic, but I was using bottled organic nutrients. I want to ditch the bottled nutrients and step up to the REAL deal organics now. I respect each and everyone on this thread but I dont have the time to read 400+ pages at this time and I was wonderin if anyone can point me in the RIGHT direction to *Clackamas Coot (Coot's)* Notill/organic supersoil ( is it the same thing?) recipe (2017 version). Ive been trying to look for this guys account on ROI, Grasscity, IC, etc., with no luck, I think he goes by different names. Anyway, I heard Coot's organic soil is the best soil build out here in the organic world, top notch stuff. I would appreciate it if someone help me out with this. I dont want my first transition into REAL organics to be half assed. Reading that last line, I think I will start to read the 400+ pages, any help is appreciated though!


----------



## keepsake (Nov 30, 2017)

Thegermling said:


> Hey guys, ive always been an "organic" kind of guy. My last grow was organic, but I was using bottled organic nutrients. I want to ditch the bottled nutrients and step up to the REAL deal organics now. I respect each and everyone on this thread but I dont have the time to read 400+ pages at this time and I was wonderin if anyone can point me in the RIGHT direction to *Clackamas Coot (Coot's)* Notill/organic supersoil ( is it the same thing?) recipe (2017 version). Ive been trying to look for this guys account on ROI, Grasscity, IC, etc., with no luck, I think he goes by different names. Anyway, I heard Coot's organic soil is the best soil build out here in the organic world, top notch stuff. I would appreciate it if someone help me out with this. I dont want my first transition into REAL organics to be half assed. Reading that last line, I think I will start to read the 400+ pages, any help is appreciated though!


Clack's recipe:

1/3 sphagnum peat moss
1/3 pumice stone
1/3 compost and/or worm poo

Mix all that together into 1 big pile. Make sure you make enough for how many pots you're growing. So, if you're growing in 4 pots that are 15 gallons each, make sure you make at least 60 gallons of the mix above.

Now for the amendments (nutrients for plants), you need to figure out how many total cubic feet is your mix.
1 cubic foot = 7 gallons.
In this case, 60 gallons will be 8.8 cubic feet. I would round up to 9 and add the amendments below accordingly.

1/2 cup per cubic feet (9 cubic feet = 4.5 cups):
kelp meal
neem meal
crustacean meal
fine grounded malted barley seeds

2 cups per cubic feet (9 cubic feet = 18 cups):
gypsum powder
basalt rock powder

Mix all of this up thoroughly, water it evenly all around until only a few drops come out when you squeeze a handful.
Cover it up loosely and let sit for 4 weeks.

--------------

After 4 weeks, you can load up your pots and plant your seeds or clones. I would also sprinkle clover seeds, grokashi, and mosquito bits (BTIs) onto the top of soil and water in. Then, on top of that layer a 1/4 inch layer of rice hulls for mulch.

clover seeds = cover crop and helps with nitrogen in soil
BTI = prevents gnats before it starts
grokashi = promotes microbial activity in the soil
rice hulls layer = insulates the soil and keeps it moist longer

From this point on out... all you have to do is water the pot every few days... with JUST WATER only. Or you can do silica, coconut water, aloe vera, compost teas, etc if you want to. But water only will still work and produce better results than any chemical bottled grow. This is what I'm currently doing in my tent, link is in my sig. Good luck dude.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 30, 2017)

I've got a giant aloe vera plant that needs to be trimmed. Can I use it for fertilizer?


----------



## keepsake (Dec 1, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> I've got a giant aloe vera plant that needs to be trimmed. Can I use it for fertilizer?


You can blend aloe vera flesh with water and water your plants. It's really good for them.


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## hillbill (Dec 1, 2017)

Castings at 1/3 of mix can be pretty soupy. Over time I have come to keep castings at 10% and fill the void with Back to Nature Cotton Burr Compost (the only good brand I have found) and Black Kow manure or even good mushroom compost, something with more fiber or body to it. Since using leds I have increased drainage to 50% especially in cooler months.


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## Tyleb173rd (Dec 1, 2017)

If you want an introduction to organics without bottled nutes look for a water only soil recipe.


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## Tyleb173rd (Dec 1, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Castings at 1/3 of mix can be pretty soupy. Over time I have come to keep castings at 10% and fill the void with Back to Nature Cotton Burr Compost (the only good brand I have found) and Black Kow manure or even good mushroom compost, something with more fiber or body to it. Since using leds I have increased drainage to 50% especially in cooler months.


Well said. Increasing drainage in colder months is brilliant. Thanks for the idea......


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## Thegermling (Dec 2, 2017)

Thanks for coots/clacks recipe. If you have a link to it I would appreciate it! Another question, I have a medical marijuana card and I was planning on doing notill outside. Should I do no till outside in a pot or straight in the ground? I was thinking of doing some raised beds and putting in coots recipe. Or I could just mix in whatever nutrients my soil needs. I'm currently waiting for my soil test results from Logans Lab. I live in washington state and it gets the best (worst) of both worlds. Scorching in the summer (100+) which may cook the plants roots if I go with raised beds unless I add a layer of hay to keep soil in raised bed cool (will that work), and the winter (sometimes lower than 30(f)). will that kill the worms or microbes living in my soil?Anyway, What are your prefrences/experiences. I would like feedback from outdoor growers ( leds, hps etc., is not "organic", its a bummer some of my fellow growers can only do it this way.)


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## hyroot (Dec 4, 2017)

If you're on the east coast go to the soil makers They are similar to build a soil but on the east coast. 


www.makeorganicsoil.com

Also worm power is based in New York.


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## Gumdrawp (Dec 6, 2017)

Does anyone have experience using stall dry in their mix? It's DE rocks and calcium bentonite, I stumbled on it looking for dry stall to use as pumice. 

Also it looks like the only pumice I can find locally is the black gold brand, I read it has too many fines and need a to be screened, can anyone confirm this?


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## bizfactory (Dec 6, 2017)

Gumdrawp said:


> Does anyone have experience using stall dry in their mix? It's DE rocks and calcium bentonite, I stumbled on it looking for dry stall to use as pumice.
> 
> Also it looks like the only pumice I can find locally is the black gold brand, I read it has too many fines and need a to be screened, can anyone confirm this?


I think you actually want *Dry Stall*, not Stall Dry. Stall Dry is the DE/clay and Dry Stall is volcanic rock/pumice which would be better for your soil.

http://www.animalworldnetwork.com/drysthobe40b.html


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## Gumdrawp (Dec 6, 2017)

bizfactory said:


> I think you actually want *Dry Stall*, not Stall Dry. Stall Dry is the DE/clay and Dry Stall is volcanic rock/pumice which would be better for your soil.
> 
> http://www.animalworldnetwork.com/drysthobe40b.html


I know that I want dry stall, I've been looking for a local source but haven't found it. However the ingredients in stall dry are also common soil amendments, was just wondering if anyone had used them before.


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## Heil Tweetler (Dec 6, 2017)

Ive haven't used those product's but i have used DE, calcined clay amendments and scoria to improve drainage in my very recycled peat based mix. Seems like in my case the scoria was the best idea. It is the most sturdy and long lasting by far. The plants seem to appreciate it as well. Roots surrounded the material in my 7 gal fabric pots. I got it from a bonsai supply spot and gave it a couple rinses before use. I usen tne medium small size, zero fines. The bits are like 1/2 the size of a pencil eraser.

I couldn't find it localy either. Bought it from an opposite coast supplier.


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## DOOZY (Dec 22, 2017)

Can I substitute granite dust for the other rock dusts . I got a buddy offering me a 55 gal drum of it for free . I also have 50 lb bags of : alfalfa meal, fish bone meal, crab meal. Kelp meal, barly seed, corn seed, ag lime, rock phosphate azomite and 400 lb of worm cast . About to get peat but happen to have 600 gal of coco handy. New to this so I hope to get this right . I have 20+ years hydro experiance but facinated with soil now.


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## DrCannaPath (Dec 23, 2017)

DOOZY said:


> Can I substitute granite dust for the other rock dusts . I got a buddy offering me a 55 gal drum of it for free . I also have 50 lb bags of : alfalfa meal, fish bone meal, crab meal. Kelp meal, barly seed, corn seed, ag lime, rock phosphate azomite and 400 lb of worm cast . About to get peat but happen to have 600 gal of coco handy. New to this so I hope to get this right . I have 20+ years hydro experiance but facinated with soil now.


You sure can if available for free go for it. I go to a marble and granite co where they cut them and shape em .... get a bagful of dust for free and use that in my garden 

Check out my current Organic Fruit Garden:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/945580/
and my previous Organic Run:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/930415/
and my previous QuadStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/916619/
and my previous TriStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/883569/


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## DrCannaPath (Dec 23, 2017)

DOOZY said:


> Can I substitute granite dust for the other rock dusts . I got a buddy offering me a 55 gal drum of it for free . I also have 50 lb bags of : alfalfa meal, fish bone meal, crab meal. Kelp meal, barly seed, corn seed, ag lime, rock phosphate azomite and 400 lb of worm cast . About to get peat but happen to have 600 gal of coco handy. New to this so I hope to get this right . I have 20+ years hydro experiance but facinated with soil now.


You sure can if available for free go for it. I go to a marble and granite co where they cut them and shape em .... get a bagful of dust for free and use that in my garden 
C9ngrats on the switch buddy and good luck ... happy growin 

Check out my current Organic Fruit Garden:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/945580/
and my previous Organic Run:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/930415/
and my previous QuadStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/916619/
and my previous TriStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/883569/


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## ANC (Dec 29, 2017)




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## hillbill (Dec 29, 2017)

@ANC, thanks for the video, interesting educating and remindful!


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## nobighurry (Jan 1, 2018)

Bed Wetter said:


> What’s the consensus on red brick shards for aeration?
> 
> On the east coast it’s difficult to find aeration materials that make sense for a yard of soil. Old/OG red brick is a material that I have access to that may work. the brick is the remains of my old chimney.
> 
> ...


I have been using red brick chips that are from an old over water saw mill that burned down years ago, the bricks have been agitated by native lake gravel, the pieces are pea to Lima bean size, I have found they work excellent, tons of tiny pores, no effect on ph great aeration


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## DrCannaPath (Jan 2, 2018)

Hey there and happy new year 
I have some questions to an issue i just realixed I've been having. My last run (2nd cycle) was weird in that at some point the worms ran out the pots and also the girls stalled or at least it looked like they did. Teas helped a lot ... anyway ... today i dumped out the soil to recycle it, reamend it, add more medium and vermi/compost and go up to #15 smart pots (from 9 gal). When i dumped the soil I noticed the roots were knotted (see pics) .. So i think i had root nematodes .... wondering if i should keep the soil and amend it with more compost vermicompost alfalfa and neem and treat it this way or scrap it and start over??
what do you guys think? 
Also, do those nematodes bother the worms? Is this why the worms ran out?
Thanks a lot in advace gentlemen... . And happy new year


Check out my current Organic Fruit Garden:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/945580/
and my previous Organic Run:
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/930415/
and my previous QuadStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/916619/
and my previous TriStrain grow  :
https://www.rollitup.org/index.php?threads/883569/


----------



## NanoGadget (Jan 6, 2018)

Hiya folks. I've read through this thread, as well as drawing info from growers I've known for decades and the ever trusty interwebz and I am officially going to be starting my first water only grow in a month or so. Got the soil cooking already.
I wanted to say hello to everyone and ask one question that has been bugging me. What are the go to amendments you recommend I should have on hand for this type of growing should my soil not be fully capable of taking me through the end of flower?
I've been growing for a long time but I've always been a bottled nute guy so I want to make sure I've got a little emergency kit ready to go if I start seeing deficiency. I'll have tea on hand if need be so I guess I'm mainly asking about any dry stuff you all think is most critical for me to have on hand.


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## Tyleb173rd (Jan 6, 2018)

Making your own EWC and compost is number one. I bokashi binned 6 root Balls and that made some beautiful humus for my ladies. They love it.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 6, 2018)

NanoGadget said:


> Hiya folks. I've read through this thread, as well as drawing info from growers I've known for decades and the ever trusty interwebz and I am officially going to be starting my first water only grow in a month or so. Got the soil cooking already.
> I wanted to say hello to everyone and ask one question that has been bugging me. What are the go to amendments you recommend I should have on hand for this type of growing should my soil not be fully capable of taking me through the end of flower?
> I've been growing for a long time but I've always been a bottled nute guy so I want to make sure I've got a little emergency kit ready to go if I start seeing deficiency. I'll have tea on hand if need be so I guess I'm mainly asking about any dry stuff you all think is most critical for me to have on hand.


no sweat my man. If you have any concern at all, just topdress a blend of the nutrients that you used to make your soil with, but go a little heavier on the K for flower (so increase kelp meal by applying a couple times through flower because it breaks down fast).

What i have found is that i've achieved up to 25% greater yields by topdressing with a "bloom mix" the first week of flower, and as it slowly breaks down during flowering, the plants get everything they need. I have actually just been buying a bloom mix (NPK = 3-7-4) and mixing ~1/3 cup with 1.5" of compost and topdressing each plant with that in that first week or two. that will carry you through to the very end guaranteed, and I highly recommend it. I was averaging about 12 oz per 600 watt, and i've seen consistent boosts around 14, and upwards of 16 (and I think I can get it even higher... hopefully i'll have more on that as time goes on). The bloom mix I use is made by Organically Done, but you can get others, another one that looks interesting is made by Dr. Earth which also contains beneficials. Good luck in your venture.

I will say, I found the Cootz mix (if that's what you're using) to be light in K, and this bloom mix has corrected this for me. What was your soil recipe?


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## keepsake (Jan 7, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> no sweat my man. If you have any concern at all, just topdress a blend of the nutrients that you used to make your soil with, but go a little heavier on the K for flower (so increase kelp meal by applying a couple times through flower because it breaks down fast).
> 
> What i have found is that i've achieved up to 25% greater yields by topdressing with a "bloom mix" the first week of flower, and as it slowly breaks down during flowering, the plants get everything they need. I have actually just been buying a bloom mix (NPK = 3-7-4) and mixing ~1/3 cup with 1.5" of compost and topdressing each plant with that in that first week or two. that will carry you through to the very end guaranteed, and I highly recommend it. I was averaging about 12 oz per 600 watt, and i've seen consistent boosts around 14, and upwards of 16 (and I think I can get it even higher... hopefully i'll have more on that as time goes on). The bloom mix I use is made by Organically Done, but you can get others, another one that looks interesting is made by Dr. Earth which also contains beneficials. Good luck in your venture.
> 
> I will say, I found the Cootz mix (if that's what you're using) to be light in K, and this bloom mix has corrected this for me. What was your soil recipe?


Dope reply man thanks. I'm on my first cycle using Coot's mix.
2 weeks away from flip.


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## NanoGadget (Jan 7, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> no sweat my man. If you have any concern at all, just topdress a blend of the nutrients that you used to make your soil with, but go a little heavier on the K for flower (so increase kelp meal by applying a couple times through flower because it breaks down fast).
> 
> What i have found is that i've achieved up to 25% greater yields by topdressing with a "bloom mix" the first week of flower, and as it slowly breaks down during flowering, the plants get everything they need. I have actually just been buying a bloom mix (NPK = 3-7-4) and mixing ~1/3 cup with 1.5" of compost and topdressing each plant with that in that first week or two. that will carry you through to the very end guaranteed, and I highly recommend it. I was averaging about 12 oz per 600 watt, and i've seen consistent boosts around 14, and upwards of 16 (and I think I can get it even higher... hopefully i'll have more on that as time goes on). The bloom mix I use is made by Organically Done, but you can get others, another one that looks interesting is made by Dr. Earth which also contains beneficials. Good luck in your venture.
> 
> I will say, I found the Cootz mix (if that's what you're using) to be light in K, and this bloom mix has corrected this for me. What was your soil recipe?


Solid info right there! I appreciate it! The soil I'm cooking right now is formulated to be hot so I'm hoping that some kelp feeds will get me through but I've still got plenty of dry ferts left over to mix up a bloom mix. I've also got a mess of Great White laying around from a hydro run if I need more bennies. Planning on using it with coco and possibly perlite?


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## hillbill (Jan 7, 2018)

It could be helpful to have kmag around for quick K boost and mg as well as sulfur. Castings are also very useful. I top dress at 4weeks with fish bone meal and castings. Blood meal, castings, Mexican bat guano and alfalfa teas will fill any N gaps. Do not over water!


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 7, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> I will say, I found the Cootz mix (if that's what you're using) to be light in K, and this bloom mix has corrected this for me. What was your soil recipe?


I think it’s light on K because CC would water in agsil 16h/protekt thereby fulfilling that need.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 7, 2018)

NanoGadget said:


> Solid info right there! I appreciate it! The soil I'm cooking right now is formulated to be hot so I'm hoping that some kelp feeds will get me through but I've still got plenty of dry ferts left over to mix up a bloom mix. I've also got a mess of Great White laying around from a hydro run if I need more bennies. Planning on using it with coco and possibly perlite?


if you have enough compost/EWC left over to make a tea or two with, that'll be most all the beneficials you need aside from mycorrhizal fungi. also, no matter the medium (coco or peat) you definitely need drainage material. i would recommend pumice over perlite. but volcanic rock crushed up, or diatom rocks are just as good. also biochar that hasn't been micronized too much is good drainage as well. Good luck!


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## Fastslappy (Jan 7, 2018)

Gumdrawp said:


> I know that I want dry stall, I've been looking for a local source but haven't found it. However the ingredients in stall dry are also common soil amendments, was just wondering if anyone had used them before.


Feed stores carry drystall, if u can find a feed store .......


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## CaptainT (Jan 24, 2018)

Found this today at the local garden store www.hopcompost.com. Small batch craft brewed compost from high quality local commercial kitchen scraps. They claim super low contaminate rates. What do you all think? I bought 2 bags so ill be trying it out. That and worm castings should cover me until i can get a compost setup going.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2018)

if it looks like it does in the picture... looks pretty bomb! i don't know much about the hop farming industry... if/how they treat their plants against fungus, insects, weed pressure. that would be the thing you'd want to know.


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## CaptainT (Jan 24, 2018)

I was thinking it came from hops too, turns out its actually compost collected from local green business. Everything from juice and oyster bars to coffee houses and restaurants. Their composting process looks interesting aswell. Good marketing anyway, we’ll see how it goes. Im having a tough time finding aeration for my mix. Found some pumice for $8.99 - 3L.......crazy. I have growstones and can get rice hulls but not really the direction i wanted to go. Also got sent 10g fabric pots instead of 15g so debating a 4 - 10g growstone run till summer when pumice is plentiful.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 24, 2018)

you're in Canada i take it? talk to @DonTesla and he can probably point you in the direction of some aeration materials. look for growstone company (it's recycled glass expanded into pumice), diatomite rocks (not powder), biochar, or red lava rock (scoria, which you'll likely have to crush yourself). Stay away from the rice hulls... they suck for drainage IMO. I didn't care for them very much as drainage... better for a mulch


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## hillbill (Jan 25, 2018)

NAPA 8822 FLOORDRY


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 25, 2018)

hillbill said:


> NAPA 8822 FLOORDRY


Any experience with Optisorb? It’s supposed to be the same as 8822 but in a coarser grade.


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## hillbill (Jan 25, 2018)

RandomHero8913 said:


> Any experience with Optisorb? It’s supposed to be the same as 8822 but in a coarser grade.


No, never seen it but have used 8822 for years. I use it for grit when icy outdoors. It provides drainage and air spaces but also holds water and nutrients.


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## Magdup (Jan 26, 2018)

Hi guys. Sorry for crashing here but i m really desperate!! I m now in week 5 of flowering in my first living organics run. I used the 2.1 master mix from the rev s book true living organics and followed this books advice step by step. The water i used was ro water. But my buds are really small and 2 plants are really sick/weak (already loosing their leaves and all the buds are popcorn size). Maybe you have any ideas what has gone wrong because i have no idea. Mabe some major bigenner mistakes i could have made or some key experience you had that you had in your beginning time. This is my second run ever and my 1st living organic as i said and since i totally overwatered my first grow overwatering is the only thing i m sure i didnt. Maybe to less water (i watered once a week but plants showed no sighns of underwatering) if you have any advice or motivation i would be very thankful because at the moment i m so pissed i m about to stop growing.
Or is living organics to much for beginners and i should start with a more easy methode??


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 26, 2018)

Magdup said:


> Hi guys. Sorry for crashing here but i m really desperate!! I m now in week 5 of flowering in my first living organics run. I used the 2.1 master mix from the rev s book true living organics and followed this books advice step by step. The water i used was ro water. But my buds are really small and 2 plants are really sick/weak (already loosing their leaves and all the buds are popcorn size). Maybe you have any ideas what has gone wrong because i have no idea. Mabe some major bigenner mistakes i could have made or some key experience you had that you had in your beginning time. This is my second run ever and my 1st living organic as i said and since i totally overwatered my first grow overwatering is the only thing i m sure i didnt. Maybe to less water (i watered once a week but plants showed no sighns of underwatering) if you have any advice or motivation i would be very thankful because at the moment i m so pissed i m about to stop growing.
> Or is living organics to much for beginners and i should start with a more easy methode??


What’s your lighting situation?


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## Magdup (Jan 26, 2018)

And sorry for my bad english i hop


RandomHero8913 said:


> What’s your lighting situation?


600w mh in veg and 600w hps for bloom.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 26, 2018)

Magdup said:


> Hi guys. Sorry for crashing here but i m really desperate!! I m now in week 5 of flowering in my first living organics run. I used the 2.1 master mix from the rev s book true living organics and followed this books advice step by step. The water i used was ro water. But my buds are really small and 2 plants are really sick/weak (already loosing their leaves and all the buds are popcorn size). Maybe you have any ideas what has gone wrong because i have no idea. Mabe some major bigenner mistakes i could have made or some key experience you had that you had in your beginning time. This is my second run ever and my 1st living organic as i said and since i totally overwatered my first grow overwatering is the only thing i m sure i didnt. Maybe to less water (i watered once a week but plants showed no sighns of underwatering) if you have any advice or motivation i would be very thankful because at the moment i m so pissed i m about to stop growing.
> Or is living organics to much for beginners and i should start with a more easy methode??


organics should be very simple if you have instructions to follow. what's easier than a water only garden? Don't be discouraged. practice makes perfect!

watered only once a week? 100% guarantee you under watered my friend, and these are the signs you're seeing. when you do water, does it seem to run through the pot as soon as you start pouring it in? if it does... the cause of this is that your medium has become hydrophobic, and while your plants may be getting enough water to not look wilted out, your soil biology is dry as a bone, which means they (organisms) are immobile, and cannot fetch what your plant needs. a friend of mine just experienced this himself, and he had blumat drippers in his container too! but they were dialed to lightly, and everywhere that wasn't within 2 inches of his blumat was dry and crusty. the plant looked great until he tried to give it some more light (LEDs) and when he did that, within days it was showing signs of deficiencies. he called me over, and i assessed the situation and that was what I found. we got her all wet again, and now she's looking great.

soil biology requires consistent and constant moisture. there should be no runoff when you water with living soil organic grows (unless you mistakenly water too much). your goal should be to never have runoff. runoff leaches away nutrients that aren't getting replaced from regular feedings. your soil should be* constantly moist*, but *not *constantly at* field capacity *(maximum moisture). the reason for this constant moisture is because all living things require water (and remember most living things are made of 70% or more water!), especially those little organisms in your soil. if it goes dry, they go dormant, and the food web stops.

the sickly looking plants you're seeing are very likely the result of your biology being inactive, nutrients not coming into solution, and your soil not being able to hydrate easily. one thing about peat moss, once it goes dry, it's a bitch to get wet again. it takes slow and steady waterings, sometimes over the course of a couple days to get it rehydrated properly.

so, scratch around in your soil, is it dry beneath the surface? does it feel crusty anywhere? are your pots very light and easy to pick up? which btw, the lift test is the best and most accurate way to determine soil moisture in my opinion.

don't stop trying! this isn't a hard thing to do... it just requires practice. and your number one lesson should be, don't wait to ask questions until a problem is so bad that you don't know how to fix it!!!

i am unfamiliar with the soil recipe that you used. and it's hard to find solutions without things like pictures of your plant or your soil. but this is my gut assessment of your situation. so if what i described sounds like your situation, my first step of action would be to start watering that soil. slowly, get it rehydrated. you may only be able to pour a cup into it at a time every hour or two over the course of the next few days.


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## Magdup (Jan 26, 2018)

RandomHero8913 said:


> What’s your lighting situation?





ShLUbY said:


> organics should be very simple if you have instructions to follow. what's easier than a water only garden? Don't be discouraged. practice makes perfect!
> 
> watered only once a week? 100% guarantee you under watered my friend, and these are the signs you're seeing. when you do water, does it seem to run through the pot as soon as you start pouring it in? if it does... the cause of this is that your medium has become hydrophobic, and while your plants may be getting enough water to not look wilted out, your soil biology is dry as a bone, which means they (organisms) are immobile, and cannot fetch what your plant needs. a friend of mine just experienced this himself, and he had blumat drippers in his container too! but they were dialed to lightly, and everywhere that wasn't within 2 inches of his blumat was dry and crusty. the plant looked great until he tried to give it some more light (LEDs) and when he did that, within days it was showing signs of deficiencies. he called me over, and i assessed the situation and that was what I found. we got her all wet again, and now she's looking great.
> 
> ...


Thank you very much for your in detail answer. I checked the moisture of my pots 2 days ago and they were dry 4 to 5 cm down so i started slowly watering them( i m very happy right now that i had the right feeling about that  ). Since i overwatered my first run so hard i probably was way too careful with watering!! I ll try to fix as much as possible with this run and will defenitly do much better next time. 
Thank you so much for your help !!!!!!you are so right i should have asked earlier.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 26, 2018)

Magdup said:


> Thank you very much for your in detail answer. I checked the moisture of my pots 2 days ago and they were dry 4 to 5 cm down so i started slowly watering them( i m very happy right now that i had the right feeling about that  ). Since i overwatered my first run so hard i probably was way too careful with watering!! I ll try to fix as much as possible with this run and will defenitly do much better next time.
> Thank you so much for your help !!!!!!you are so right i should have asked earlier.


hindsight is 20/20  the easiest mistake to make in organic soil is to not water enough, and it compounds all other problems heavily. do you use plastic or fabric containers? plastic tends to distribute moisture much better than fabric ones do... but plastic also coils roots around the outside edges before they start to fill in the interior of the soil. i prefer fabric over plastic for that reason. when the roots make it to the edge, the tip dries and dies and they start shooting out lateral growth, filling the entire medium. but fabric also require much more frequent waterings due to evaporation.

also, do you have a mulch down on top of your soil to slow evaporation? anything helps: pumice/perlite, rice hulls, leaves, straw, a circular disc of carboard... anything!


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## Magdup (Jan 26, 2018)

I


ShLUbY said:


> hindsight is 20/20  the easiest mistake to make in organic soil is to not water enough, and it compounds all other problems heavily. do you use plastic or fabric containers? plastic tends to distribute moisture much better than fabric ones do... but plastic also coils roots around the outside edges before they start to fill in the interior of the soil. i prefer fabric over plastic for that reason. when the roots make it to the edge, the tip dries and dies and they start shooting out lateral growth, filling the entire medium. but fabric also require much more frequent waterings due to evaporation.
> 
> also, do you have a mulch down on top of your soil to slow evaporation? anything helps: pumice/perlite, rice hulls, leaves, straw, a circular disc of carboard... anything!


 Use fabric pots and i m mulching with miscanthus. 
Damm it i will have a lot of time to learn about watering since i only do 1 run a year.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 26, 2018)

Magdup said:


> I
> 
> Use fabric pots and i m mulching with miscanthus.
> Damm it i will have a lot of time to learn about watering since i only do 1 run a year.


all you need to know is that you should keep it moist and never give it a dry period because peat moss is notorious for getting hydrophobic. if your plants are big and healthy with nice root mass, you'll likely need to water daily. the goal being to never have runoff. usually its the outside circumference of the fabrics that go dry quickly, so be sure to keep that area in particular in your focus. Maybe for next growing season, you can look into a SIP style grow, which keeps the soil at a perfect moisture content with little to no guessing. I bet you'll see fantastic results!


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## Magdup (Jan 26, 2018)

Whats sip?


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## ShLUbY (Jan 26, 2018)

Magdup said:


> Whats sip?


simply, you water from the bottom of the container. there are wicks that pull water from a lower reservoir up into the soil and keep it at a consistent moisture content. so you never water from above, and don't even really have to do much but keep a little reservoir filled. the watering takes care of itself!

here's the basic idea, and there are many ways to accomplish the same design. if you poke around on the forum, you'll see examples of them






@DonBrennon and @hyroot have some examples of using SIPs posted on here. they both have DIY threads in the organics forum with examples/pictures of their methods.


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## Magdup (Jan 26, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> simply, you water from the bottom of the container. there are wicks that pull water from a lower reservoir up into the soil and keep it at a consistent moisture content. so you never water from above, and don't even really have to do much but keep a little reservoir filled. the watering takes care of itself!
> 
> here's the basic idea, and there are many ways to accomplish the same design. if you poke around on the forum, you'll see examples of them
> 
> ...


Great!!! Thank you very much for being so helpful and taking time for my probs!!! i m deffenitly going to look at that stuff.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 26, 2018)

Constant moisture in organic soil can cause PH problems -- and all the badness that comes with it (lockouts, rot, etc).
But it really boils down to terminology. What is "wet", and what is "moist"?
I can tell you from experience that letting organic soil dry out is not the end of the world. In fact, it's the safer option when compared to overwatering.
If you check your plants regularly (twice a day) and water when they just barely start to wilt, your plants will thrive and have very thick roots that don't spiral around the pot (if you use plastic). Been there, done that. Top dress with fresh worm castings occasionally and you'll be fine. There are also over-the-counter products like 'Microbe Life Photosynthesis Plus' (AKA 'Liquid Ass') that replenish the soil.
I remove all doubt and just use a moisture probe. If it's less than 5.0, it's time to water.
Another thing you can do to keep your soil from completely drying out is add calcined clay. I use kitty litter, but hydroton also works (more expensive).
The clay doesn't hold a lot of moisture, but it holds onto it tightly. In other words, the surrounding soil could by bone dry but there's still a tad of moisture stuck in the clay. It's also VERY porous, so microbes love it.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 26, 2018)

But if you use Kitty Litter or that stuff they sell at NAPA (I can't remember the name ) make sure you filter out the small, sandy particles before adding it to your soil. 
And rinse it first or it will raise PH. (Not good, can cause lockouts.)


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## hillbill (Jan 26, 2018)

Parts number 8822 Oil Dry! Bamboo skewers can be used to help you know where moisture is and how much in your containers. Yes, too dry does less harm than too wet! I weight my containers and water at a certain weight for each size. Lots of drainage required for my COBs.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 26, 2018)

too dry is better than too wet... i dunno about that honestly, as they each have their own evils over extended periods of time. too wet for too long... yeah problems. but too wet for only one watering gets resolved quickly by a well established plant with a good root system and adequate light for transpiration. Too dry for too long and your soil biology shuts down and then you experience lack of nutrition from nutrients not being solubilized. i'd much rather have that consistent moisture all the time and never give the peat a chance to get hydrophobic. never experienced pH problems doing this, yields are great, and soil biology is happy. This is why SIP containers work so great... constant moisture, but at the right levels all the time.

weighing containers is a great approach. that's why i use the lift method. i have a good idea of what their weight should be from growing for so long. just comes 2nd nature


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 26, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> too dry is better than too wet... i dunno about that honestly, as they each have their own evils over extended periods of time. too wet for too long... yeah problems. but too wet for only one watering gets resolved quickly by a well established plant with a good root system and adequate light for transpiration. Too dry for too long and your soil biology shuts down and then you experience lack of nutrition from nutrients not being solubilized. i'd much rather have that consistent moisture all the time and never give the peat a chance to get hydrophobic. never experienced pH problems doing this, yields are great, and soil biology is happy. This is why SIP containers work so great... constant moisture, but at the right levels all the time.
> 
> weighing containers is a great approach. that's why i use the lift method. i have a good idea of what their weight should be from growing for so long. just comes 2nd nature


Too wet for too long is WAY worse than letting your soil dry out completely between waterings. It's not even close. 
Ever run 30 gallon pots? Good luck lifting them. Even 10s are a pain when there's a giant plant sticking out of them.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 26, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Too wet for too long is WAY worse than letting your soil dry out completely between waterings. It's not even close.
> Ever run 30 gallon pots? Good luck lifting them. Even 10s are a pain when there's a giant plant sticking out of them.


i run 20 and 25 gals. no need to lift them when they're on 4wheel dollies. i dont like to lift heavy pots in effort to prevent soil compaction as much as possible.

and yeah i mean if we're gonna pick the more of the two evils, then yeah overwatering constantly is bad... but honestly if you run 40-45% drainage it's pretty friggin hard to overwater your pots, especially in fabric containers.

but still, inactive microherd is bad as well. plant yields will diminish, i've seen it happen first hand. i mean yeah, any yield is better than no yield. but, letting soil dry completely is just bad practice in living soil when things are functioning properly and there are no problems (even though soil never dries completely, it still maintains a thin film of water, even at the wilting point of the plant).

it's all about that perfect, constant moisture content. that's why sip containers work so amazingly and plants do remarkable in them. fully functioning microherd all the time, plant and microbes respond to their environment at full potential.


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## Mazer (Jan 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Constant moisture in organic soil can cause PH problems -- and all the badness that comes with it (lockouts, rot, etc).
> But it really boils down to terminology. What is "wet", and what is "moist"?I use kitty litter, but hydroton also works (more expensive).
> The clay doesn't hold a lot of moisture, but it holds onto it tightly. In other words, the surrounding soil could by bone dry but there's still a tad of moisture stuck in the clay. It's also VERY porous, so microbes love it.


Dear Chunky Stool,
I have concerns about soil compaction and aeration. I use red lava in my mix for that purpose. It takes up about 20 to 30% of my ROL soil volume(soon to be switch to no till). I just found a huge bag of expanded clay pellets under a shelf in the garage. You seem to have experience using them in your mix. Do you think they are any better than lava rock? what ration in the soil?
Aeratingly yours,
M


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## Magdup (Jan 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> But if you use Kitty Litter or that stuff they sell at NAPA (I can't remember the name ) make sure you filter out the small, sandy particles before adding it to your soil.
> And rinse it first or it will raise PH. (Not good, can cause lockouts.)


Thank you man for taking time and being so helpful!!! You are right overwatering is even worse!!! Did that on my other run.


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## hillbill (Jan 27, 2018)

Growers many time try to water their way out of an overwatering situation without realizing it. Drainage is really important with LEDs and keeping your root zone in your pots comfortably warm in the cold months is a huge must! That alone will prevent many overwatering troubles.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2018)

Mazer said:


> Dear Chunky Stool,
> I have concerns about soil compaction and aeration. I use red lava in my mix for that purpose. It takes up about 20 to 30% of my ROL soil volume(soon to be switch to no till). I just found a huge bag of expanded clay pellets under a shelf in the garage. You seem to have experience using them in your mix. Do you think they are any better than lava rock? what ration in the soil?
> Aeratingly yours,
> M


As long as the clay doesn't clump it should be fine. Not sure if it's better than lava, but I like it.
To avoid compaction you need a consistent particle size. That's why I filter out the little stuff.
Up to 50% is fine, but I wouldn't go over that. Al Tapla wrote a good article about compaction an the use of clay. I'll see if I can find it.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2018)

This isn't the one I was looking for, but it's still good:
https://kalachuchiatbp.blogspot.com/2013/08/adventures-with-gritty-mix.html


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> But if you use Kitty Litter or that stuff they sell at NAPA (I can't remember the name ) make sure you filter out the small, sandy particles before adding it to your soil.
> And rinse it first or it will raise PH. (Not good, can cause lockouts.)


Napa 8822


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> This isn't the one I was looking for, but it's still good:
> https://kalachuchiatbp.blogspot.com/2013/08/adventures-with-gritty-mix.html


Found it! 
https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1423691/container-soils-water-movement-and-retention-xvi


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2018)

I mix the larger particles into potting soil & spread the small stuff in the yard.


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## elkamino (Jan 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Found it!
> https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1423691/container-soils-water-movement-and-retention-xvi


Wow, SOLID link Chunky. Thanks


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2018)

elkamino said:


> Wow, SOLID link Chunky. Thanks


So much info, it's like drinking from a fire hose. 

Al Tapla is the man.


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Clay can fuck things up in a container real fast and real bad.


I've used calcined clay for years. 
Al Tapla has used it for decades. 

Clearly you are mistaken.


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## elkamino (Jan 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> So much info, it's like drinking from a fire hose.
> 
> Al Tapla is the man.


Apparently! I’m currently spinning down his rabbit hole lol


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## ShLUbY (Jan 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Found it!
> https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1423691/container-soils-water-movement-and-retention-xvi


nice read chunky. thanks for the link


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 27, 2018)

One of my favorite mixes for seedlings and small plants is 60/40 screened calcined clay and peat. 
In fact, I've got two trays of dianthus seedlings growing in it right now:


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## Mazer (Jan 28, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Found it!
> https://www.houzz.com/discussions/1423691/container-soils-water-movement-and-retention-xvi


Dear Chunky stool,
This article is indeed very interesting. I thank you for sharing it!
I made my signature out of a sentence found in it :
"We become better growers by improving our ability to reduce the effects of limiting factors, or by eliminating those limiting factors entirely; in other words, by clearing out those influences that stand in the way of the plant reaching its genetic potential."

in the other article it says:
"Can I use clay pellets? No. It breaks down so fast you'll quickly lose the aeration ability of the mix" 
Is it not what hydrotons are?

Thankfuly yours,


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## hillbill (Jan 28, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> I've used calcined clay for years.
> Al Tapla has used it for decades.
> 
> Clearly you are mistaken.


I deleted that as Post was result of careless reading with an assist from pervasive dyslexia!


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 28, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> I mix the larger particles into potting soil & spread the small stuff in the yard.
> View attachment 4080188


What size mesh are you running that stuff through? Thanks


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 29, 2018)

RandomHero8913 said:


> What size mesh are you running that stuff through? Thanks


I use a tray that has a bunch of holes in it. 1/8" I think.


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## LostInEthereal (Jan 29, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> One of my favorite mixes for seedlings and small plants is 60/40 screened calcined clay and peat.
> In fact, I've got two trays of dianthus seedlings growing in it right now:
> View attachment 4080367


Hey where did you find that sticky fly trap box contraption if you don't mind me asking?


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 30, 2018)

LostInEthereal said:


> Hey where did you find that sticky fly trap box contraption if you don't mind me asking?


https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Shot-No-Pest-Strip2-HG-5580/dp/B0019BK8AG

Home Depot/Lowe’s, walmart.


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## Heil Tweetler (Jan 30, 2018)

Whoat, the recycled, living, organic, no till bros are ok with
*Dichlorvos?*


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## LostInEthereal (Jan 30, 2018)

RandomHero8913 said:


> https://www.amazon.com/Hot-Shot-No-Pest-Strip2-HG-5580/dp/B0019BK8AG
> 
> Home Depot/Lowe’s, walmart.


Thanks brother


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## LostInEthereal (Jan 30, 2018)

Another quick question for everyone. I'm pretty new to growing and most of my experience was with coco and chemical nutrients (2 grows). I have one grow with no till under my belt just an autoflower that I had some issues with (name gnats and height control). Anyway, I'm about to fire up the 4x4 HPS tent (in addition to the 2x2 for Autos with LED) and I'm wondering due to space constraints if it would be better to run 4x 15gal (as planned) or one larger say 45ish gallon pot (possibly square) with a few plants? 

The reason I ask is all my tents are setup in a tiny walk in closet which is just about 4.5' across so my 4x4 barely fits. I certainly can't access anything from the sides so I figured one large pot might be easier to manage? I was hoping to run at least a couple gals in there for variety sake. Also I am essentially following the BuildASoil no till kit/guidelines if that helps (I have everything in the kit and then some). Minus seedlings starting in Roots Organics Original. 

Sorry if I'm a rambling and all that, been partying a bit tonight and definitely hard to construct legible sentences.


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 30, 2018)

Heil Tweetler said:


> Whoat, the recycled, living, organic, no till bros are ok with
> *Dichlorvos?*


I’m not. Shits dangerous and it says it shouldn’t be used around edible foods so I’m not sure why people use them in grow rooms or tents. 

https://www.doh.wa.gov/CommunityandEnvironment/Contaminants/Pesticides/PestStrips


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 30, 2018)

RandomHero8913 said:


> I’m not. Shits dangerous and it says it shouldn’t be used around edible foods so I’m not sure why people use them in grow rooms or tents.
> 
> https://www.doh.wa.gov/CommunityandEnvironment/Contaminants/Pesticides/PestStrips


They are fine in veg, but I wouldn't use them in flower.


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 30, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> They are fine in veg, but I wouldn't use them in flower.


Gotcha, thanks for the info. Do you know if the plants absorb any of the vapor or does it act more like a film/layer that can be washed off?


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 30, 2018)

RandomHero8913 said:


> Gotcha, thanks for the info. Do you know if the plants absorb any of the vapor or does it act more like a film/layer that can be washed off?


Not sure. 
Maybe neither?


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 30, 2018)

If you've got a gnarly spider mite infestation while in veg, nothing hits the spot like hot shots. 
Sprays have to be reapplied periodically and it's easy to miss a spot -- which means they'll be back. 
Hot shot vapor penetrates every nook and cranny. It will kill them all, no problem-o.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 30, 2018)

LostInEthereal said:


> Another quick question for everyone. I'm pretty new to growing and most of my experience was with coco and chemical nutrients (2 grows). I have one grow with no till under my belt just an autoflower that I had some issues with (name gnats and height control). Anyway, I'm about to fire up the 4x4 HPS tent (in addition to the 2x2 for Autos with LED) and I'm wondering due to space constraints if it would be better to run 4x 15gal (as planned) or one larger say 45ish gallon pot (possibly square) with a few plants?
> 
> The reason I ask is all my tents are setup in a tiny walk in closet which is just about 4.5' across so my 4x4 barely fits. I certainly can't access anything from the sides so I figured one large pot might be easier to manage? I was hoping to run at least a couple gals in there for variety sake. Also I am essentially following the BuildASoil no till kit/guidelines if that helps (I have everything in the kit and then some). Minus seedlings starting in Roots Organics Original.
> 
> Sorry if I'm a rambling and all that, been partying a bit tonight and definitely hard to construct legible sentences.


4 x 15 gal IMO. easier to move, easier to grow things perpetually if that is your goal, if one mix is acting funny you still have three others that could be doing well instead of your whole 45 gal acting up, you can spread them out or condense them in the space as needed. there are other reasons too, but i just woke up lol


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## dubekoms (Feb 28, 2018)

I have some em1 and want to make labs. Should I do the whole rice wash thing and add em1 or can I skip that and combine em1 with milk?


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## overdriver (Mar 5, 2018)

Hi, I'm interested in this organic stuff since I want to reuse my earth instead of throwing it away.
I really dont want to use kelp meal because of the high amounts of heavy metals found in it.

Are you guys still using it or did you find any alternative that is as good as kelp


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## hillbill (Mar 5, 2018)

I use 2 cups in each 30 gallon mix and use it to brew weak teas along with Alfalfa meal.


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## bizfactory (Mar 5, 2018)

Yeah I'm still using Kelp. Any source on the heavy metals? Not doubting but would like to read up on it.


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## overdriver (Mar 5, 2018)

Well the sea is poluted as fuck with plastic particles and mercury.
And seaweed mops heavy metals up.
Im sorry I dont have a source where they tested kelp for heavy metals.
Only some general stuff about polution. But if you google it up I'm pretty sure you will find information about it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_in_fish
https://www.chemistryworld.com/news/waste-seaweed-mops-up-heavy-metals/3004265.article


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## CaptainSnap (Mar 6, 2018)

What are you trying to gain from the kelp? The extensive micro nutrients or the higher levels of K? I still use kelp myself but if one wants to eliminate it from the feed I would think green sand or rock dust would replace the micro nutrients. To replace K you could use Black Soldier Fly Frass or any insect frass. I use kelp and frass! I've seen a huge growth spurt since using bsf frass!!


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## overdriver (Mar 6, 2018)

Im sorry I'm a total noob. 
I have no idea what I'm trying to gain from kelp.
I only want to grow organic and read here that everyone is using kelp for amazing results.
The high potassium is easy to replace I guess so that whats left are the micro nutrients.
I looked green sand up and rock dust up and it looks nice.
But it doesnt seem to have nearly the same range and amount of micro nutrients like kelp does.


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## CaptainSnap (Mar 6, 2018)

That's very possible as I have never looked up the list for both. I do believe rock dusts contain a certain level of metals as well. Not sure if it's less or more than kelp if kelp does contain any. Again I've never looked but was just giving advice on alternatives. Someone with more knowledge will chime in to inform better options. I do know you should stay away from pacific kelp if at all possible as that's where a lot of nuclear waste is leaking yet.


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## Wetdog (Mar 8, 2018)

overdriver said:


> Im sorry I'm a total noob.
> I have no idea what I'm trying to gain from kelp.
> I only want to grow organic and read here that everyone is using kelp for amazing results.
> The high potassium is easy to replace I guess so that whats left are the micro nutrients.
> ...


Kelp is a "must have", plain and simple. The kelp used is harvested in the N Atlantic, mainly around Nova Scotia or Iceland, very cold and not very polluted. I get THORVIN from Iceland and 100% organic. For me it's just easier to source and cheaper than the Canadian, but both are the exact same kelp and both organic. For me, the trace, minerals, and enzymes are much more important than any K value. That's why it's a "must have".

Greensand works great as is and suppliments kelp perfectly and I've always added to my mixes for the last 8 years. I've recently discontinued adding rock dust to my mixes as they didn't supply anything that the greensand wasn't already supplying and were just adding unwanted density to the mix. 

This has just been my experience, buy and use whatever you feel comfortable with.

Wet


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## MrKnotty (Mar 17, 2018)

Happy ladies just got an SST, plus aloe, plus stinging nettle ferment! 3 more weeks till they get there 100 gallon pots in the greenhouse. Two strains: strawberry/banana kush and sour D/lemon kush. Mmmmmmmmm tasty.


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## MrKnotty (Mar 18, 2018)

Just topped all my plants. I then blended them up in a food processor with about a half gallon of water. Once everything is nice and pulverized, I transfer everything to a 1/2 gallon mason jar and add about 1 oz of molasses. Sometimes I don't even put in a full ounce. Seal up the jar and date. Everyday I open the jar open for 30 seconds and then reseal it. In one month my fermentation will be done. I usually start with a teaspoon per gallon added to my feeds. I will work the dosage up higher once I see how strong my fermentation is. I highly recommend fermented cannabis plant tops. The ladies really respond well to it. Try it out!!

Peace


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## Tyleb173rd (Mar 22, 2018)

Does anyone have any indoor mulching ideas? I’d like to keep my living soil containers moist on the surface. My fear is that organic mulch will bring in bugs that I don’t want to fight.


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 22, 2018)

eh bugs are not always a bad thing for your soil, my worm bin often has lots of critters in it. But you could use Dimacetous earth, it is natural bug killer (gets in their exoskeletons and basically takes away their ability to absorb water and they die of dehydration kinda brutal sounding lol)


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## ShLUbY (Mar 22, 2018)

Tyleb173rd said:


> Does anyone have any indoor mulching ideas? I’d like to keep my living soil containers moist on the surface. My fear is that organic mulch will bring in bugs that I don’t want to fight.


if you have the mulch thick enough it shouldn't bring in bugs. rice hulls, perlite, pumice, sand, cocoa shells, straw, etc... basically anything that wont harm your soil will work fine. I use pumice in all my recycled containers, and use carbon material for my no-tills like chopped up cannabis stems, rice hulls, straw, etc.


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## Tyleb173rd (Mar 22, 2018)

Thanks for the replies, good brothers. What about top dressing? At the end of the cycle do I remove the mulch and rinse?


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## ShLUbY (Mar 22, 2018)

Tyleb173rd said:


> Thanks for the replies, good brothers. What about top dressing? At the end of the cycle do I remove the mulch and rinse?


i wouldn't bother rinsing, just reuse. any top dressings go under the mulch, so you'll have to pull it off and then put it back on after topdress.


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## Tyleb173rd (Mar 22, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> i wouldn't bother rinsing, just reuse. any top dressings go under the mulch, so you'll have to pull it off and then put it back on after topdress.


Roger that....thank you.


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## Mazer (Mar 23, 2018)

Tyleb173rd said:


> Does anyone have any indoor mulching ideas? I’d like to keep my living soil containers moist on the surface. My fear is that organic mulch will bring in bugs that I don’t want to fight.


Dear Tyleb173rd,
I do ROLS and recently started to leave all my leafs (...) and green trimming material from the plant on the top of the soil. Right back to the roots. 
I'll let you know if I see any problem arising but so far so good.

Recyclingly yours,
M


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## bizfactory (Mar 23, 2018)

Mulching with leaves is fine / preferred in my opinion.


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 5, 2018)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> eh bugs are not always a bad thing for your soil, my worm bin often has lots of critters in it. But you could use Dimacetous earth, it is natural bug killer (gets in their exoskeletons and basically takes away their ability to absorb water and they die of dehydration kinda brutal sounding lol)


My worm bin has lots of bugs in the top tray where I put fresh scraps but I don't worry about it.
I could always keep bugs away by burying each layer of scraps with soil from the recycle pile, but it would use up space very quickly.

Having multiple worm bins is the way to go but it gets expensive if you buy fancy ones like the worm factory. Lately I've been using 10 gallon cloth pots with drain pan lids from the dollar store.
I'll snap a pic.
-- edit --


 
This is the expensive one. (Works well but not worth $100.)


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Apr 5, 2018)

I use 27 gallon totes a hole in the bottom for affluent and a rope for it to drain to. I bought the tower thing second hand at a decent price and never actually used it as a worm farm as they suck for that imo. HOWEVER I do find them useful for harvesting castings... i add banana peels and such to the bottom of an empty tote then put one of those tower screen levels then fill with worm infested castings add a shop light to the top to drive the worms down and every few hours take the top layer of castings off. the worms will slowly migrate down out of the castings. now you have worms and casting separated.


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 5, 2018)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> I use 27 gallon totes a hole in the bottom for affluent and a rope for it to drain to. I bought the tower thing second hand at a decent price and never actually used it as a worm farm as they suck for that imo. HOWEVER I do find them useful for harvesting castings... i add banana peels and such to the bottom of an empty tote then put one of those tower screen levels then fill with worm infested castings add a shop light to the top to drive the worms down and every few hours take the top layer of castings off. the worms will slowly migrate down out of the castings. now you have worms and casting separated.


Yep, that's the best feature of the worm tower -- easy to separate worms from castings. 
I just pull the bottom tray, give it a stir with a little rake, then set it on top with the lid off. Wait a day or two and you've got worm-free castings.


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## Tyleb173rd (Apr 6, 2018)

Buildasoil recommends peat moss for their no till system. Could I use a coco/peat moss mix like Roots instead? Does the higher CEC of the 100% peat moss buildasoil mix make a huge difference in the end?


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## Chronikool (Apr 14, 2018)

That ROLS life.... Alien Rift

PS got fungus gnats after buying in Afalfa hay. 1st thing i had brought in as a media. After i stopped using that and a few cycles later...all soil media (compost, worm castings, old soil) is from 'on farm' and problem free.


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## Chronikool (Apr 14, 2018)

I love my Indoor..... (worm bin)


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## ShLUbY (Apr 15, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> View attachment 4122399
> 
> That ROLS life.... Alien Rift
> 
> PS got fungus gnats after buying in Afalfa hay. 1st thing i had brought in as a media. After i stopped using that and a few cycles later...all soil media (compost, worm castings, old soil) is from 'on farm' and problem free.


Rift looks amazing dude. That classic rift trait! I hope I get to run some one of these days. Ocean grown is next on my list of gear to run. Tropic moon and rift for sure. Thanks for sharing. Feels like I haven’t seen u on in a while


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## Chronikool (Apr 15, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> Rift looks amazing dude. That classic rift trait! I hope I get to run some one of these days. Ocean grown is next on my list of gear to run. Tropic moon and rift for sure. Thanks for sharing. Feels like I haven’t seen u on in a while


Yeah...i havent been disappointed from Oceangrown thatz for sure. 

Yah...dont really post much these dayz...alwayz lurkin' though.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Hey guys I just happened to lose my list from the last time I remixed my soil! So I went off the top of my head! If you guys don't mind did I forget anything or mess up on the amounts! My soil is around 6 cu ft in a big tote! This list is how much total I put of each amendment in the 6 cu ft of soil! Plz keep in mind this isn't new soil I have reamended this soil about 3 times already (over the past few years) so this is more of a touch up if you guys know what I mean!
Thanks for all your help u guys are the best!

6 cu. Ft of soil!!!!!!

1 bag .5 cu. ft. ewc.(homemade)
1 bag .5 cu. ft. Compost(local)
Small bag of extra rice hauls for extra aeration.

Bio live 2c
Neem meal. 2c
Alfalfa meal. 3c
Kelp meal. 4c
Fish bone meal 3c
Bone meal. 1c
Blood meal 1c

Crab shells 3c
Oyster shells. 2C

Gypsum 1c
Azomite 1c
Basalt 1c

Gro Kashi 3c
Incet frass. 2c

I also have laying around dolomite lime, soft rock phosphate, and diatomaceous earth! I didn't add them this round but they have been added in the past I didn't see a need to keep adding them bc Im sure they are still in the soil bc things like dolomite take years to fully break down! Atleast that is what I was taught if I'm wrong anywhere throughout this please correct me ready to Learn more than I knew yesterday! Thanks everyone!!!!

Edit; I've mixed these up and brewing a good compost tea to mix it down with and begin my 1-2 month cook! I've also threw in a few quarts of expanded em1 to boost the soil life will it cooks!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Heyyyyy my comment started page 420!!!!

*EVERYBODY BURN ONE!!!!!!!*


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## hillbill (Apr 17, 2018)

I checked my watched threads and clicked on your post on page 420. Took it as a sign. Good morning Space Monkey f2!


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Hey guys I just happened to lose my list from the last time I remixed my soil! So I went off the top of my head! If you guys don't mind did I forget anything or mess up on the amounts! My soil is around 6 cu ft in a big tote! This list is how much total I put of each amendment in the 6 cu ft of soil! Plz keep in mind this isn't new soil I have reamended this soil about 3 times already (over the past few years) so this is more of a touch up if you guys know what I mean!
> Thanks for all your help u guys are the best!
> 
> 6 cu. Ft of soil!!!!!!
> ...


mix seems very nitrogen and phos heavy and not really much in terms of potassium... greensand? langbeinite? either of these would be good additions to your mix and help you out in flower. you'll still get good flowers with this mix, but speaking from experience, a mix lacking in K lacks in potential yield. yeah theres K in kelp.... but it's 1% by weight... and 4 cups of kelp doesn't weigh very much compared to the weight of your other ingredients (great source of lots of micronutrients though!). next time, look at all your NPKs, and line them up in vertical columns on paper, and see if you are lacking or overdoing in one area. (if you expand the quote above, i have done this for you) and remember these things are not additive... they are % weight by volume. 

also, in acidic conditions (which is what you want)... dolomite can break down quite easily.... not over years unless it is really chunky, which most are quite micronized. I've experienced this myself many times. but you have dolo in the bagged soil (assuming 6cu.ft. of soil means something that came premixed already like promix, sunshine, or FFOF or something), and also OSF in the mix, so you'll be fine. no need to add dolo to this recipe.


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## hillbill (Apr 17, 2018)

I find wood ashes and charcoal bits from burned trees very nice if you have access. Kmag for a quick fix also and it has sulphur. Kelp in the mix has some and also has many micros and minerals. Molasses gets overlooked all the time for K.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> mix seems very nitrogen and phos heavy and not really much in terms of potassium... greensand? langbeinite? either of these would be good additions to your mix and help you out in flower. you'll still get good flowers with this mix, but speaking from experience, a mix lacking in K lacks in potential yield. yeah theres K in kelp.... but it's 1% by weight... and 4 cups of kelp doesn't weigh very much compared to the weight of your other ingredients (great source of lots of micronutrients though!). next time, look at all your NPKs, and line them up in vertical columns on paper, and see if you are lacking or overdoing in one area. (if you expand the quote above, i have done this for you) and remember these things are not additive... they are % weight by volume.
> 
> also, in acidic conditions (which is what you want)... dolomite can break down quite easily.... not over years unless it is really chunky, which most are quite micronized. I've experienced this myself many times. but you have dolo in the bagged soil (assuming 6cu.ft. of soil means something that came premixed already like promix, sunshine, or FFOF or something), and also OSF in the mix, so you'll be fine. no need to add dolo to this recipe.


OK thanks a ton I will order both lamgebanite and greensand both have been on my list for while just haven't ordered then! That also explains a lot bc I am having a k deficiency right now I thought the k was covered by the fish bone meal and the soft rock phosphate! U guess I was wrong bc this makes perfect scence now thank you a ton! One more question in my 6 cu ft of soil should I do one cup of each or 2!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

hillbill said:


> I find wood ashes and charcoal bits from burned trees very nice if you have access. Kmag for a quick fix also and it has sulphur. Kelp in the mix has some and also has many micros and minerals. Molasses gets overlooked all the time for K.


And yes I forgot to add tons of molasses does get added to my soil through teas! I usually do a tea at least once every two weeks and it always has a healthy supply of molasses in it!


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> OK thanks a ton I will order both lamgebanite and greensand both have been on my list for while just haven't ordered then! That also explains a lot bc I am having a k deficiency right now I thought the k was covered by the fish bone meal and the soft rock phosphate! U guess I was wrong bc this makes perfect scence now thank you a ton! One more question in my 6 cu ft of soil should I do one cup of each or 2!


a good baseline is using a 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil for each amendment, and then tweak there as you see fit after a couple grows.

so your mix in particular, i would eliminate the bone meal and just use fishbone meal, the blood meal is really soluble and doesn't persist long in the soil, and the azomite is quite similar to basalt, but i prefer basalt because it's less powdered and more sand like (the brand i use is anyway). then run each of the others at 1/2c per cu.ft. (except the OSF id run at 1/4c since you are using bagged soil that likely contains dolo.) . You were smart and kinda went light on everything which is good since you have a few redundant inputs. just something to consider when you have to buy some replacements  diversity is good though, and there is nothing wrong with that, just means you have to have more shit on hand lol.

as for the minerals I suggested, you could do both, and run them each at 1/4 cup per cu. ft. but that means you have to buy two things instead of one, or you could just get the langbeinite OR the greensand and run it at 1/2 cup per cu.ft. for a baseline and tweak as necessary. 

I think if you add either of those two minerals, you will have a pretty complete soil and should have a run with no issues.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> a good baseline is using a 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil for each amendment, and then tweak there as you see fit after a couple grows.
> 
> so your mix in particular, i would eliminate the bone meal and just use fishbone meal, the blood meal is really soluble and doesn't persist long in the soil, and the azomite is quite similar to basalt, but i prefer basalt because it's less powdered and more sand like (the brand i use is anyway). then run each of the others at 1/2c per cu.ft. (except the OSF id run at 1/4c since you are using bagged soil that likely contains dolo.) . You were smart and kinda went light on everything which is good since you have a few redundant inputs. just something to consider when you have to buy some replacements  diversity is good though, and there is nothing wrong with that, just means you have to have more shit on hand lol.
> 
> ...


Thanks a lot buddy you have been a ton of help! I will leave out the bone meal! And langebanite and greensand are now on the way! Thanks again!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> mix seems very nitrogen and phos heavy and not really much in terms of potassium... greensand? langbeinite? either of these would be good additions to your mix and help you out in flower. you'll still get good flowers with this mix, but speaking from experience, a mix lacking in K lacks in potential yield. yeah theres K in kelp.... but it's 1% by weight... and 4 cups of kelp doesn't weigh very much compared to the weight of your other ingredients (great source of lots of micronutrients though!). next time, look at all your NPKs, and line them up in vertical columns on paper, and see if you are lacking or overdoing in one area. (if you expand the quote above, i have done this for you) and remember these things are not additive... they are % weight by volume.
> 
> also, in acidic conditions (which is what you want)... dolomite can break down quite easily.... not over years unless it is really chunky, which most are quite micronized. I've experienced this myself many times. but you have dolo in the bagged soil (assuming 6cu.ft. of soil means something that came premixed already like promix, sunshine, or FFOF or something), and also OSF in the mix, so you'll be fine. no need to add dolo to this recipe.


I dId what you said and your completely right! My npk values don't add up very evenly and it makes since why I'm seeing a slight k deficiency in one of my girls!!!
Like I said greensand and langebanite are in the mail as we speak! And I will cut out bone meal! But to be honest I think my nitrogen looks a lilittle low as well do u agree or not? I was thinking maybe a a cup per my 6 cu ft of feather meal might help! But I don't wanna over do it! But like you said a very diverse soil life is my goal!!!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Here's a better pic!


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> View attachment 4123664
> I dId what you said and your completely right! My npk values don't add up very evenly and it makes since why I'm seeing a slight k deficiency in one of my girls!!!
> Like I said greensand and langebanite are in the mail as we speak! And I will cut out bone meal! But to be honest I think my nitrogen looks a lilittle low as well do u agree or not? I was thinking maybe a a cup per my 6 cu ft of feather meal might help! But I don't wanna over do it! But like you said a very diverse soil life is my goal!!!


i have never, and i mean never, had an N def in my living soil, and I use basically the same components that you do, minus the bone meal, and blood meal. i run all components at 1/2c per cu.ft. (though i'm experimenting with a mix at 2/3 cup to see if i can push the mix harder). So i don't think you need the feather meal at all bud.


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## Crab Pot (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> i have never, and i mean never, had an N def in my living soil, and I use basically the same components that you do, minus the bone meal, and blood meal. i run all components at 1/2c per cu.ft. (though i'm experimenting with a mix at 2/3 cup to see if i can push the mix harder). So i don't think you need the feather meal at all bud.


I agree with you and I would also leave out the blood and bone meal. There are much better options.

@Greenthumbs256 when you look at one of the most popular notill recipes, Coots mix. It only has 1.5 cups per cu. ft. of nute amendments in it and you really wouldn’t want more than that from experience. I understand that a lot of growers do add more but it’s not ideal, cannabis really thrives in a lower NPK environment. I wouldn’t add more than 3/4 cup per cu. ft. nutes (your list has well over 3 cups/cu.ft) between cycles and often less, sometimes much less. One can always top dress later. I learned from experience that less is best, add too much and it can be difficult to get the soil back in balance. If it’s convenient, you may also want to consider a soil test. It may be worth it to you, getting the soil dialed in and it’s amazing, you’ll get top notch results, yield, quality and ease of grow.

-Coots mix-
Crab meal 1/2 cup per/cu.ft.
Kelp meal 1/2 cup per/cu.ft.
Neem Seed meal 1/2 cup/cu.ft.


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Crab Pot said:


> I agree with you and I would also leave out the blood and bone meal. There are much better options.
> 
> @Greenthumbs256 when you look at one of the most popular notill recipes, Coots mix.
> It only has 1.5 cups per cu. ft. of nute amendments in it and you really wouldn’t want more than that from experience. I understand that a lot of growers do add more but it’s not ideal, plants really thrive in a lower NPK environment. I wouldn’t add more than 3/4 cup per cu. ft. nutes (your list has well over 3 cups/cu.ft) between cycles and often less, sometimes much less. One can always top dress later. I learned from experience that less is best, add too much and it can be difficult to get the soil back in balance. If it’s convenient, you may also want to consider a soil test.
> ...


respectfully, i have to disagree. i knew what my strains were capable of producing, and i found this mix to be lacking when i saw the results of several runs. by adding the fishbone meal and greensand i saw noticeable results immediately in yield weight with the same quality. coots mix lacks potassium IMO (some have pointed out that he uses the malted barley to make up for this, i did not use it), which i correlated with the lower yields than i was used to. never experienced nutrient burn or imbalances when adding these ingredients at these concentrations, and plants faded as normal (i even started topdressing at week 3 to carry them longer). I think anything above 4 cups is going to be too hot... and between 3 and 4 is pushing it. I'm testing a coots mix + biolive and greensand at 2/3 cup per cu.ft. right now. will definitely document the results in my grow thread. Personally, i think his mix is going to do fine as long as the blood meal doesn't delay flowering from having too much N. but if you look at the amount... its 1 cup in 6 cu.ft... hardly anything really. 2.5TBSP per cu.ft.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Crab Pot said:


> I agree with you and I would also leave out the blood and bone meal. There are much better options.
> 
> @Greenthumbs256 when you look at one of the most popular notill recipes, Coots mix. It only has 1.5 cups per cu. ft. of nute amendments in it and you really wouldn’t want more than that from experience. I understand that a lot of growers do add more but it’s not ideal, cannabis really thrives in a lower NPK environment. I wouldn’t add more than 3/4 cup per cu. ft. nutes (your list has well over 3 cups/cu.ft) between cycles and often less, sometimes much less. One can always top dress later. I learned from experience that less is best, add too much and it can be difficult to get the soil back in balance. If it’s convenient, you may also want to consider a soil test. It may be worth it to you, getting the soil dialed in and it’s amazing, you’ll get top notch results, yield, quality and ease of grow.
> 
> ...


Shluby is correct I'm using between 1-4 cups (depending what) total in 6 cu.ft. of soil! So I'm actually around 1 cup or less per cu. Ft.

Edit and I do agree less is more and that's just what I've done! and honest mistake buddy, Im sorry I tried to be clear about the amounts were for 6 cu. ft. in my original post here! But thanks for the input!


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Shluby is correct I'm using between 1-4 cups (depending what) total in 6 cu.ft. of soil! So I'm actually around 1 cup or less per cu. Ft.
> 
> Edit and I do agree less is more and that's just what I've done! and honest mistake buddy, I tried to be clear about the amounts were for 6 cu. ft. in my original post here! But thanks for the input!


no man, you are definitely in the 3 cups per cu.ft. range, if not a little bit more when it comes to NPK ingredients. just with alfalfa, fishbone, crab meal, and bokashi, you are at 2 cups per cu.ft right there haha.

and i wouldn't necessarily say im "correct" but I do believe that the coots mix is outdated. can you grow the dank with it? Yes. Can you get more out of your plants with a few modifications to the mix? Definitely.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Also what's your guys take on bio live! And I will put the blood and bone meal on the back shelf to collect some dust from now on lol!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> no man, you are definitely in the 3 cups per cu.ft. range, if not a little bit more when it comes to NPK ingredients. just with alfalfa, fishbone, crab meal, and bokashi, you are at 2 cups per cu.ft right there haha.
> 
> and i wouldn't necessarily say im "correct" but I do believe that the coots mix is outdated. can you grow the dank with it? Yes. Can you get more out of your plants with a few modifications to the mix? Definitely.


Well then would u suggest I cut back on some ingredients! I can also cut the mix I just made with an extra bag of compost and ewc!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

I guess where I'm going wrong; I'm looking at each ingredient as something different but in reality I should be adding some of the ingredient amounts as one? Is that what your saying?


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Tell me this in my tote I mix around 6 cu ft. At a time! Should I be somewhere around 1c per cu ft total of certain groups of amendments together? Like alfalfa and kelp mixed would be 3 cups of each(for 6 cu ft) or would I add them all up together so it would only be on average 1 whole cup of each for my entire 6 cu ft tote


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Sorry I'm just really confused I was under the impresion that some amendments like kelp, alfalfa, fish, bio everything are good to be added at 1 cup EACH for every cu. ft. And others like minerals, gypsum azomite basalt were to added at 1/4 cup each for every cu. Ft. And the big crushed shells as in oyster and crab were to added at 1/2 each per cu.ft. and this is for re amending used soil! Which started as ffof and happy frog and tons of ewc and compost! 

AM I WRONG???


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I guess where I'm going wrong; I'm looking at each ingredient as something different but in reality I should be adding some of the ingredient amounts as one? Is that what your saying?


now you're getting it. you have _redundant ingredients_. the fishbone meal and the bone meal are, as far as NPK, one in the same... though i believe the fishbone meal is a superior product, so i would just roll with that (but you could split the total amount between the two if you wanted, yes). the azomite and basalt are basically one in the same... i prefer the basalt because of its texture (not powdered) not that they really affect NPK but i think you get what I mean.

the biolive is basically just a mix of the ingredients you already have, but with beneficials included... which isn't a bad thing. I'm trying a box out right now actually... it's like an all purpose or "stand alone" fert, but is fine in smaller amounts like 1/4-1/2c per cu.ft. as _part_ of a recipe.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Is what your saying things like alfalfa kelp bio live fish bone MeAL all should make a total of 1 cup per cu. Ft. Of soil?


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

OK give me a few I'm gunna try and re work this whole thing and figure it out! 
But what should I do about the fact that one tote is already mixed should I just cook it longer? Or maybe try to cut it with compost, ewc, and some more rice hauls?

Second blood, and bone meal I'll cut out all together! I'll go light on everything to add extra Boi live for more diversity! Can I group alfalfa, kelp, fish bone meal, and neem meal at 1/4 cup each per cu. Ft. And group some other or should I be adding everything as one


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Sorry I'm just really confused I was under the impresion that some amendments like kelp, alfalfa, fish, bio everything are good to be added at 1 cup EACH for every cu. ft. And others like minerals, gypsum azomite basalt were to added at 1/4 cup each for every cu. Ft. And the big crushed shells as in oyster and crab were to added at 1/2 each per cu.ft. and this is for re amending used soil! Which started as ffof and happy frog and tons of ewc and compost!
> 
> AM I WRONG???


with an ingredient list as diverse as yours, as far as the NPK ingredients go, i would not go more than 1/2 cup per cu.ft. with any of them (and i would exclude bone meal, and blood meal for sure).

your end goal as far as NPK should be no more than 3.5 cups total per cu.ft. (and a little less is fine too, _you can always add more by topdressing_).

example:
neem, alfalfa, kelp, crab, and fishbone meals @ 1/2c each, makes 2.5c per cu.ft.

add the frass and bokashi (or biolive) @ 1/2c each, and you're at 3.5c per cu. ft... your maximum target range.

minerals i run at 1/2 cup are : oyster shell OR dolomite lime, gypsum (not NPK ingredients)

minerals i run between 1/2 and 1 cup are: basalt OR glacial OR azomite


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> with an ingredient list as diverse as yours, as far as the NPK ingredients go, i would not go more than 1/2 cup per cu.ft. with any of them (and i would exclude bone meal, and blood meal for sure).
> 
> your end goal as far as NPK should be no more than 3.5 cups total per cu.ft. (and a little less is fine too, _you can always add more by topdressing_).
> 
> ...


OK Thank you so much that makes a ton more sense now! I finally get it why I've been having some many issues and thinking my mixes were too hot which is bc they are very hot!!!! Lmfao dam OK I'm going to completely re work this now thanks for clearing that up!


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> OK give me a few I'm gunna try and re work this whole thing and figure it out!
> But what should I do about the fact that one tote is already mixed should I just cook it longer? Or maybe try to cut it with compost, ewc, and some more rice hauls?
> 
> Second blood, and bone meal I'll cut out all together! I'll go light on everything to add extra Boi live for more diversity! Can I group alfalfa, kelp, fish bone meal, and neem meal at 1/4 cup each per cu. Ft. And group some other or should I be adding everything as one


grouping should only occur between redundant ingredients. kelp, neem, fishbone, alfalfa and crab all have _their own purposes and physical/chemical properties_ and therefore are not redundant_. _but you can run them at whatever proportion you want. there is no specific proportion for any ingredient, you can adjust the amounts to make the end result recipe complete.

you should be looking for purpose for adding an ingredient besides diversity.

example: kelp - micronutrients, trace minerals. crab - chitin source. alfalfa: growth simulants. fishbone meal - good phosphorus, enzymes, micronutrients. neem - pest deterrant. the NPK values are relevent too, but an added bonus and you still need to pay attention to what is lacking in the mix. Like the langebeinite we discussed earlier - source of K, Mg, and S. that would complete a good mix IMO.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

Also where would u classify the greensand? It's an amendment like kelp right? Or would it be considered grouped with the minerals


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Also where would u classify the greensand? It's an amendment like kelp right? Or would it be considered grouped with the minerals


its more of a mineral complex. mined rock. takes a while to break down completely, but is a good slow and steady source of K. kelp is quick to break down and quickly used up as it is not dense like the greensand is.


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## Crab Pot (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> respectfully, i have to disagree. i knew what my strains were capable of producing, and i found this mix to be lacking when i saw the results of several runs. by adding the fishbone meal and greensand i saw noticeable results immediately in yield weight with the same quality. coots mix lacks potassium IMO (some have pointed out that he uses the malted barley to make up for this, i did not use it), which i correlated with the lower yields than i was used to. never experienced nutrient burn or imbalances when adding these ingredients at these concentrations, and plants faded as normal (i even started topdressing at week 3 to carry them longer). I think anything above 4 cups is going to be too hot... and between 3 and 4 is pushing it. I'm testing a coots mix + biolive and greensand at 2/3 cup per cu.ft. right now. will definitely document the results in my grow thread. Personally, i think his mix is going to do fine as long as the blood meal doesn't delay flowering from having too much N. but if you look at the amount... its 1 cup in 6 cu.ft... hardly anything really. 2.5TBSP per cu.ft.


I see where your coming from but I have a difficult time accepting that adding as many addmendments as you are proposing isn’t going to be problematic. I was just using Coots mix as an example. I understand that Coots mix or anyone’s for that matter is unlikely to be balanced without a lab test. Like you, I experienced deficiencies with Coots mix and every other mix I’ve ever tried for that matter, and I’ve tried many mixes. I used to love mixing soil and my plants looked great in veg but deficiencies would often show up in flower, usually on just on a plant or two but it drove me nuts. Then one day I purchased a couple of yards of Kis Organic’s biochar soil (lab tested) and my grows improved enough where I will no longer be mixing my own indoor soil. Hell a yard of soil for $450 sounds expensive but it’s a no brainer for me. If I have any problems with my grows I know it’s unlikely my mix and more likely the environment. I’m in 25 gallon geopots and typically yield a half pound to a pound per pot.

Here’s a few shots from my current grow

No-till soil ,blumats, 4200k and a little knf











@ShLUbY i noticed you also are a Blumat user. We’re you able to get them dialed in? Have you tried packing coco coir around the ceramic tip on the carrots?


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Crab Pot said:


> I see where your coming from but I have a difficult time accepting that adding as many addmendments as you are proposing isn’t going to be problematic. I was just using Coots mix as an example. I understand that Coots mix or anyone’s for that matter is unlikely to be balanced without a lab test. Like you, I experienced deficiencies with Coots mix and every other mix I’ve ever tried for that matter, and I’ve tried many mixes. I used to love mixing soil and my plants looked great in veg but deficiencies would often show up in flower, usually on just on a plant or two but it drove me nuts. Then one day I purchased a couple of yards of Kis Organic’s biochar soil (lab tested) and my grows improved enough where I will no longer be mixing my own indoor soil. Hell a yard of soil for $450 sounds expensive but it’s a no brainer for me. If I have any problems with my grows I know it’s unlikely my mix and more likely the environment. I’m in 25 gallon geopots and typically yield a half pound to a pound per pot.
> 
> Here’s a few shots from my current grow
> 
> ...


nice looking quality! I'm even starting to get in the mind set that even a good soil has its own lifespan after being recycled so many times... and sometimes you just gotta restart from scratch to get back to square one. I'll be getting into those philosophies in my grow thread soon. I've had some important revelations in the last month or so.

my blumats started out really good for the first 12-18 months, but have gotten finicky over time. i've had them for about 2 years now I think... and they seem to be a little more prone to "runaways" recently. I take good care of them too. I emailed blumat about it and never even got a response from them... i am pretty dissapointed about that. Never tried to coco-tech around the tip... makes sense though. But yeah... as much as I like them, i'm now starting to work with pumice SIPs in plastic containers. I have the set up for them posted in my grow thread (somewhere in the most recent 10 pages) and so far... I'm loving the shit out of them. my plan is to dial in a flood and drain table with pumice SIPs and living soil later this year as an experiment. for now, i just use drip trays, pour the water in them, and let the SIP do the work! I think a flood and drain would be sexy as fuck though. probably have to increase the drainage portion of the mix to 45% though.


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## Crab Pot (Apr 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Tell me this in my tote I mix around 6 cu ft. At a time! Should I be somewhere around 1c per cu ft total of certain groups of amendments together? Like alfalfa and kelp mixed would be 3 cups of each(for 6 cu ft) or would I add them all up together so it would only be on average 1 whole cup of each for my entire 6 cu ft tote


Add them all up. I would only add 4.5 - 6 cups (ex. of NPK in total balanced addmendments. @ShLUbY would add more. You’d have to ask him but I think he’s suggesting 12 - 18 cups of NPK. Neither of us know for sure, were just talking from our personal experiences. There are a lot of factors, pot/bed size, plant size, amount of plant material that gets composted back in the pots, etc.

Podcast #17 from Kis Organics on soil testing talks about readdmending and Tad recommends 7-14 lbs. with an average of 10 lbs. per yard of soil. He’s talking not only about the weight of the nutes but also the minerals. That calculates out to 0.26 lbs. and 0.51 lbs. per cu.ft. Or an average of 0.37 lbs. cu.ft. 

6 cu.ft. x 0.26 lbs. = 1.56 lbs.
6 cu.ft. x 0.37 lbs.= 2.24 lbs
6 cu.ft. x 0.51 lbs. = 3.06 lbs.

Tad has years of experience consulting with large and small notill grows. He would probably tell you to add somewhere between 1.56 lbs. and 3.06 lbs. to the 6 cu.ft. of soil. I’m not sure how that works out in cups but you could weigh out to double check your measurement in cups.

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/podcast

Listen to the podcast. That should give you some additional insight. Then I would suggest mixing your NPK with your minerals and weigh it out. Now you will have all three of our recommendations. Pick one that your most comfortable with of average them all together.


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## ShLUbY (Apr 17, 2018)

Crab Pot said:


> Add them all up. I would only add 4.5 - 6 cups (ex. of NPK in total balanced addmendments. @ShLUbY would add more. You’d have to ask him but I think he’s suggesting 12 - 18 cups of NPK. Neither of us know for sure, were just talking from our personal experiences. There are a lot of factors, pot/bed size, plant size, amount of plant material that gets composted back in the pots, etc.
> 
> Podcast #17 from Kis Organics on soil testing talks about readdmending and Tad recommends 7-14 lbs. with an average of 10 lbs. per yard of soil. He’s talking not only about the weight of the nutes but also the minerals. That calculates out to 0.26 lbs. and 0.51 lbs. per cu.ft. Or an average of 0.37 lbs. cu.ft.
> 
> ...


hmmm i wonder what my amendments weight out to be in the mix that i use.... has me curious. guess i'll have to get the scale out when i mix up a batch this weekend and i'll let you know (if i remember LOL). I'll try and report back on this. and volume in cups is just gonna determine the weights of your amendments per cup. if you have dense amendments you're gonna have less volume per weight.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 17, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> hmmm i wonder what my amendments weight out to be in the mix that i use.... has me curious. guess i'll have to get the scale out when i mix up a batch this weekend and i'll let you know (if i remember LOL). I'll try and report back on this. and volume in cups is just gonna determine the weights of your amendments per cup. if you have dense amendments you're gonna have less volume per weight.


Very true like basalt to kelp would be no where the same the basalt I have which is locally sourced is very heavy and dence!


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## Crab Pot (Apr 18, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> nice looking quality! I'm even starting to get in the mind set that even a good soil has its own lifespan after being recycled so many times... and sometimes you just gotta restart from scratch to get back to square one. I'll be getting into those philosophies in my grow thread soon. I've had some important revelations in the last month or so.
> 
> my blumats started out really good for the first 12-18 months, but have gotten finicky over time. i've had them for about 2 years now I think... and they seem to be a little more prone to "runaways" recently. I take good care of them too. I emailed blumat about it and never even got a response from them... i am pretty dissapointed about that. Never tried to coco-tech around the tip... makes sense though. But yeah... as much as I like them, i'm now starting to work with pumice SIPs in plastic containers. I have the set up for them posted in my grow thread (somewhere in the most recent 10 pages) and so far... I'm loving the shit out of them. my plan is to dial in a flood and drain table with pumice SIPs and living soil later this year as an experiment. for now, i just use drip trays, pour the water in them, and let the SIP do the work! I think a flood and drain would be sexy as fuck though. probably have to increase the drainage portion of the mix to 45% though.


Right on... I’ve popped in to check your thread out a couple of times but I need to read it from the start. I like your style. 

I’ve gone seven rounds with a soil so far but Mountain Organics on IG is on his 21st round in one of his no-till pots. His plants look flawless, he’s one of the dudes that started the original no-till thread over at IMag. He uses his used soil as the humus portion of his new soil mixes (1/3 peat, 1/3 pumice/lava rock, 1/3 humus mix) and he’s got a ton of worms in his pots, turning e everything into humus. How many rounds are you getting out of your mixes?

Coco apparently makes better contact around the porcelain tips of the Blumat carrots over soil. Worth a try but if I had the room I might consider SIP’s myself. I want to check out your flood and drain system, sounds interesting Flood in some knf, brother! I’m from the understanding that a constant moisture level is less stressful for the plants. Tad recommends a moisture of 80 - 120 mb for his Biochar soil mix. Kis Organics has a couple of podcast on Blumats and a lot of this information is discussed in there. Check it out, I think you well enjoy those podcasts. Tad also designs and sells Blumat systems for hobby and commercial gardens. Send him an email if you have any questions. 

https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/podcast


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 18, 2018)

So what's up with bio char I really don't see a need for it with the deversity I have with my amendments


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## ShLUbY (Apr 18, 2018)

Crab Pot said:


> Right on... I’ve popped in to check your thread out a couple of times but I need to read it from the start. I like your style.
> 
> I’ve gone seven rounds with a soil so far but Mountain Organics on IG is on his 21st round in one of his no-till pots. His plants look flawless, he’s one of the dudes that started the original no-till thread over at IMag. He uses his used soil as the humus portion of his new soil mixes (1/3 peat, 1/3 pumice/lava rock, 1/3 humus mix) and he’s got a ton of worms in his pots, turning e everything into humus. How many rounds are you getting out of your mixes?
> 
> ...


aha!... so honestly, i just came to the same revelation recently. my heavily recycled soils (practically 2 years running them) have basically turned into compost... hence the problem i've been seeing with my mix being slightly alkaline... the peat has been neutralized and once the S in the gypsum gets used up and neutralized the mix loses any acidic properties! I was going to make a mix with fresh peat, old soil as humus, and a little added aeration and amend as usual. So... my brain was on the right track after all. This really makes me feel happy! I have been chasing this problem for a few months now. upon recycling, the mix would be slightly acidic, but by the 4th week of flower... slightly alkaline. which was driving me crazy because the plants looked AMAZING. no deficiencies... other than a lack of expected yield lol. Glad I'm on the right thought process. Thanks for the info.

it's not my flood and drain system yet... but it will be eventually  . Have yet to see anyone else doing it. I will definitely check out the podcasts. I appreciate the info, and i appreciate you checking out the thread! Just trying to document this organic journey to share with all! I love this crazy adventure and the culture that is growing around it.


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## Olive Drab Green (Apr 18, 2018)

Crab Pot said:


> I see where your coming from but I have a difficult time accepting that adding as many addmendments as you are proposing isn’t going to be problematic. I was just using Coots mix as an example. I understand that Coots mix or anyone’s for that matter is unlikely to be balanced without a lab test. Like you, I experienced deficiencies with Coots mix and every other mix I’ve ever tried for that matter, and I’ve tried many mixes. I used to love mixing soil and my plants looked great in veg but deficiencies would often show up in flower, usually on just on a plant or two but it drove me nuts. Then one day I purchased a couple of yards of Kis Organic’s biochar soil (lab tested) and my grows improved enough where I will no longer be mixing my own indoor soil. Hell a yard of soil for $450 sounds expensive but it’s a no brainer for me. If I have any problems with my grows I know it’s unlikely my mix and more likely the environment. I’m in 25 gallon geopots and typically yield a half pound to a pound per pot.
> 
> Here’s a few shots from my current grow
> 
> ...


*A widely diversified food source is a huge part and benefit of organics. You should see what I amend with, and how diverse each is.*

* *


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## ShLUbY (Apr 18, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> So what's up with bio char I really don't see a need for it with the deversity I have with my amendments


its just another way of sequestering nutrients in your soil. it has charged surfaces, just like peat, coco, pumice, lava rock, etc. but the unique thing about biochar is that is has (+) and (-) charged surfaces, where as the other have only (-) charged surfaces. porous spaces in the char provide homes for organisms, just like that of lava rock and pumice. Char is good stuff.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 18, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> its just another way of sequestering nutrients in your soil. it has charged surfaces, just like peat, coco, pumice, lava rock, etc. but the unique thing about biochar is that is has (+) and (-) charged surfaces, where as the other have only (-) charged surfaces. porous spaces in the char provide homes for organisms, just like that of lava rock and pumice. Char is good stuff.


Once I get what I'm working on locked down and not having any issues that will be next on my list to learn


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## ShLUbY (Apr 18, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Once I get what I'm working on locked down and not having any issues that will be next on my list to learn


good idea. get one thing working first... then play around with it


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## hillbill (Apr 18, 2018)

Fish bone meal is a great replacement for high P guano. Porcine bone meal from MG or whatever brand is almost even in N and P and I use it occasionally but mostly
on ornamentals now. Blood meal not used here anymore. In fact, almost all my N sources are slow or medium release and usually provide other majors. Alfalfa, feather meal, fish meal, Neem meal all are good as well as composted poultry litter.

It is sometimes good to remember that NPKetc are determined by weight, not volume. Been organic in my Grow for ten years and reamend used mix which is now 30% or more of my mix.


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 18, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> View attachment 4122411
> 
> I love my Indoor..... (worm bin)


I saw that at the garden show and thought it would be too big. 
Wish I had gotten it now. 
The one I bought can't keep up so I expanded into cloth pots outdoors.


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## Chronikool (Apr 18, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> I saw that at the garden show and thought it would be too big.
> Wish I had gotten it now.
> The one I bought can't keep up so I expanded into cloth pots outdoors.


Yeah itz really good...(about a month in)...no smell...quality build...leachate catcher.

I wanted a indoor bin to compliment my compost holes (dig a hole...throw in food scraps...cover with soil...mark it...wait 8 weeks...more species of worms come in) and outside bins...


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 18, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Fish bone meal is a great replacement for high P guano. Porcine bone meal from MG or whatever brand is almost even in N and P and I use it occasionally but mostly
> on ornamentals now. Blood meal not used here anymore. In fact, almost all my N sources are slow or medium release and usually provide other majors. Alfalfa, feather meal, fish meal, Neem meal all are good as well as composted poultry litter.
> 
> It is sometimes good to remember that NPKetc are determined by weight, not volume. Been organic in my Grow for ten years and reamend used mix which is now 30% or more of my mix.


Fish bone is awesome and for some reason my dogs don't try to eat it like regular bone meal. (not good -- it gives them the squirts.)

I also like crab meal because it's mild (4-3-0), provides calcium, and helps overall tilth. Plus it's cheap at 10 bucks for 5 lbs. 
Ever watch Deadliest Catch and wonder what happens to crab that's DOA when they unload? 

Now you know...


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## hillbill (Apr 18, 2018)

We buried fish remains from cleaning in our veggie garden when I was small. I thought every garden had fish scales. Used fish somehow ever since. Someone here turned me on to fish bone meal. Been using it a while and am very happy! Great for top dress.


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## CaptainSnap (Apr 19, 2018)

Ill be popping some ocean grown once the snow melts


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 20, 2018)

OK guys I've fixed my soil but I still have issue with one girl! It's a potassium def. What can I use to help her while I wait on the Langbeinite and greensand to come in!


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## elkamino (Apr 20, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> OK guys I've fixed my soil but I still have issue with one girl! It's a potassium def. What can I use to help her while I wait on the Langbeinite and greensand to come in!


Perhaps a Kelp tea?


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## hillbill (Apr 20, 2018)

Molasses and wood ashes!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 20, 2018)

I didn't think about molasses!!!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 20, 2018)

As super heavy feed of molassas wouldn't hurt it at all and should by me a week until my greensand and langbeinite arive!


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## SageFromZen (Apr 24, 2018)

I'll tell you what I'm using that's worked pretty well for me and I hope I don't get roasted on my ingredients but I'm enjoying the results. Note* That not everything that I use comes of out of pocket. I get plenty of schwagg and samples from the Emerald Cup every year. Not to mention I've got a really cool hydro shop here in the east bay that I broh' with super hot chile pepper plants for display in their store under lights and they broh' me back with killer prices and freebies.

Using a big blue tarp I remove the end of season soil from every smart pot that I used and then remove as much of the seasons root matter as possible. I then dust Azos to what's spread on the tarp and mix together thoroughly. Then I scoop everything back up into the same smart pots that I started with and let them set out under open raining skies all winter long.

Once things dry up a bit and the sun comes out in the spring I lay out the tarp and pull the smart pots over that have been washed by the rains over the last few months and add more of the original recipe from the previous year as follows:

I use a 50/50 mix of Roots Organic Regular to VermiFire soil and that's what I use as a base and comprises most of my total cost. Depending on what's laying on the tarp that I've recycled from the previous year I'll add a half a part of newly mixed RO/VF and blend accordingly. This way it's diluted and isn't so hot.

Now, I don't have exact measurements of the following amendments in that it's reliant on how much base I'm working with. I do a light dusting of each of the following and then blend it all together.

Oats
Organic brown rice powder
Crushed egg shells
Mykos
Plant Success Great White
Roots Organic Uprising Foundation (ie: http://www.aurorainnovations.org/uprising-foundation.html )
Insect Frass
Self harvested, aged and fossilized sparrow/native east bay bird guanos
Ancient Forest Alaskan Humus
Wood ash
OG Tea Veganic Special Sauce(both mixed into the base and I water using it as well) (ie: www.ogtea.com )

The mixture is then loaded from the tarp into a couple of Rubbermaid trashcans that I leave in the sun with the lids on until ready for use come late March. Now, when my babies are ready for transplant from their 4 inch containers I scoop the mixture into the desired smart pots and once transplanted I leave them out in the rain to wake everything up in the mixture.

VermiFire and Roots alone as a 50/50 mix cover just about everything and what's breaking down in the Roots Organic Uprising Foundation fills in the gaps(Hit the link and spy the ingredients). The oats and brown rice powder act as food and are quickly colonized by any number of the 17 species of mycorrhizal fungi and 14 species of bacteria between the Great White, Mycos and whatever leftover Azos that was planted last winter. The sparrow guano breaks down as a nitrogen source and the wood ash buffers the ph and insect frass complete the mix.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 24, 2018)

Here's my mix I have been working on with the help of a few ppl for recycling living organic soil, I mix 6 cu ft at a time and let it cook for 1-2 months! I usually water it down twice with a compost tea!


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## hillbill (Apr 24, 2018)

Gnatrol has made my reuse of mixes much more enjoyable and solves even an imported gnat problem quickly. I always had some gnat around even with dunks and other organic controls. Gnats when I had them seemed to come in with composts of various kinds and castings or media. I’ve had them in the best name brands we all know but have not used Fox Farm or Roots but know they can be gnatty also. Gnats love the same soil type thing that we love for our plants and they are all over this planet and dozens of species at that.

I must store some things outside where there are vast armies of fungus gnats from now 'til Christmas. Gnatrol takes the worry out of bringing stored components or used mix back in.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Apr 24, 2018)

Can anyome fill me in on how much coconut powder to use per gallon! I just recently got a bag and never used it before?


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## SageFromZen (Apr 26, 2018)

SageFromZen said:


> I'll tell you what I'm using that's worked pretty well for me and I hope I don't get roasted on my ingredients but I'm enjoying the results. Note* That not everything that I use comes of out of pocket. I get plenty of schwagg and samples from the Emerald Cup every year. Not to mention I've got a really cool hydro shop here in the east bay that I broh' with super hot chile pepper plants for display in their store under lights and they broh' me back with killer prices and freebies.
> 
> Using a big blue tarp I remove the end of season soil from every smart pot that I used and then remove as much of the seasons root matter as possible. I then dust Azos to what's spread on the tarp and mix together thoroughly. Then I scoop everything back up into the same smart pots that I started with and let them set out under open raining skies all winter long.
> 
> ...


You have to remember that I'm totally cheating. That's kinda the point. I grow six medical plants a year so what I'm doing is completely impractical to production growers. The objective behind my thinking was to use things thta I already had laying around. See, the Great White, the Veganic Special Sauce, Uprising Foundation and the Mykos were all freebies. Didn't pay a dime for them. I have these and so many more samples that have just been sitting in the shed since the 2016 Cup. Half of em' I don't even have interest in and were thrown out!

So I took an inventory of what was left in front of me that I thought might accommodate last years recycled VF/RO amended blend. I used Veganic Special Sauce all last season and I am rather 'impressed' with its performance so I've employed it this year too. Works differently than a compost tea albeit is being marketed as a brew-less compost tea alternative. I thought it worked very well hand in hand with unsulphured blackstrap molasses staggered every other watering.

One might notice the ingredients all put together. My total out of pocket: $46.00. *Which, was the whole point behind these two back to back posts. LMMFAO!!! I'll shut up now. Over and OUT!

VermiFire Soil:
Ingredients: Coco Coir, Peat, Redwood, Compost, Alaskan Humus, Castings, Cinders, Perlite, Bat Guano, Mycorrhizal Fungi, Alfalfa Meal, Blood Meal, Kelp Meal, Feather Meal, Bone Meal, Sulfate of Potash and Greensand.

Roots Organic Regular Soil:
_Perlite, Coco Fiber, Peat Moss, Composted Forest Material, Pumice, Worm Castings, Bat Guano, Soybean Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Fish Bone Meal, Kelp Meal, and Greensand
_
Insect Frass

Mykos

Alaskan Forest Humus

Crushed egg shells

Oats and organic brown rice powder

Roots Organic Uprising Foundation:
_DERIVED FROM
Fish Bone Meal, Oyster Shell Flour, Kelp Meal, Greensand, Non GMO Soybean Meal, Glacial Rock Dust, Non GMO Alfalfa Meal, Feather Meal, Bat Guano and Langbeinite. Also contains non plant food ingredient Humic Acid

Great White:
*Endomycorrhiza*
Glomus aggregatum – 83 props per gram
Glomus intraradices – 83 props per gram
Glomus mosseae – 83 props per gram
Glomus etunicatum – 83 props per gram
Glomus clarum – 11 props per gram
Glomus monosporum – 11 props per gram
Paraglomus brazilianum – 11 props per gram
Glomus deserticola – 11 props per gram
Gigaspora margarita – 11 props per gram

*Ectomycorrhiza*
Pisolithus tinctorious – 187,875 propagules per gram
Rhizopogon luteolus – 5,219 props per gram
Rhizopogon fulvigleba – 5,219 props per gram
Rhizopogon villosullus – 5,219 props per gram
Rhizopogon amylopogon – 5,219 props per gram
Scleroderma citrinum – 5,219 props per gram
Scleroderma cepa – 5,219 props per gram

*Bacteria*
Azotobacter chroococcum – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus subtilis – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus licheniformis – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus azotoformans – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus megaterium – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus coagulans – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus pumilus – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus thuringiensis – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Bacillus amyloliquefaciens – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Paenibacillus durum – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Paenibacillus polymyxa – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Saccharomyces cerevisiae – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Pseudomonas aureofaciens – 525,000 CFU’s per gram
Pseudomonas fluorescens – 525,000 CFU’s per gram

Trichoderma koningii-187,875 CFU’s per gram
Trichoderma harzianum-125,250 CFU’s per gram

_


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 26, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Gnatrol has made my reuse of mixes much more enjoyable and solves even an imported gnat problem quickly. I always had some gnat around even with dunks and other organic controls. Gnats when I had them seemed to come in with composts of various kinds and castings or media. I’ve had them in the best name brands we all know but have not used Fox Farm or Roots but know they can be gnatty also. Gnats love the same soil type thing that we love for our plants and they are all over this planet and dozens of species at that.
> 
> I must store some things outside where there are vast armies of fungus gnats from now 'til Christmas. Gnatrol takes the worry out of bringing stored components or used mix back in.


I've had good luck with mosquito bits. Just gotta soak em 15 mins or so before watering in. 
They're cheap when bought in bulk. 

If you don't like dealing with the little pieces of aggregate, MicrobeLift makes a concentrated liquid that also works well. 

https://www.123ponds.com/elbmc6.html
4 drops treats 5 gallons


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## hillbill (Apr 26, 2018)

Dunks are hand grenades, Gnatrol is The Manhattan Ptoject!


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 26, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Dunks are hand grenades, Gnatrol is The Manhattan Ptoject!


I bet it takes more than 4 drops of Gnatrol to treat 5 gallons. 

Microbe-Lift BMC is hard to beat. 
They even sell it by the gallon!


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## hillbill (Apr 26, 2018)

Gnatrol take 1 to 3 tsp/gal. I used dunks for about 7 years before I saw Gnatrol so highly touted on this forum a few months ago. No drama and no gnats. Fast!


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 26, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Gnatrol take 1 to 3 tsp/gal. I used dunks for about 7 years before I saw Gnatrol so highly touted on this forum a few months ago. No drama and no gnats. Fast!


They look very similar. 
Whatever it takes, eh?


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## hillbill (Apr 26, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> They look very similar.
> Whatever it takes, eh?


I think Gnatrol May contain toxins from the bacteria also and dunks the bacteria. It has been 100% effective and makes me much more confident in bringing in new composts etc.


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## widgetkicker (Apr 29, 2018)

I've bought Gnatrol by the pound from ebay before. It came repackaged in a generic container with not much of a label. A pound will last me at least six months, so I don't really want much more than that if I want to keep it fresh. When I went to look for some today I couldn't find anyone on the internet selling it in anything smaller than a 16-pound bucket for about $400. 

Does anybody know what happened? Did the Department of Ag or someone crack down for selling pesticides without a label? Did the manufacturer tell these guys to cut it out because they are about to introduce their own smaller packages?


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## hillbill (Apr 29, 2018)

widgetkicker said:


> I've bought Gnatrol by the pound from ebay before. It came repackaged in a generic container with not much of a label. A pound will last me at least six months, so I don't really want much more than that if I want to keep it fresh. When I went to look for some today I couldn't find anyone on the internet selling it in anything smaller than a 16-pound bucket for about $400.
> 
> Does anybody know what happened? Did the Department of Ag or someone crack down for selling pesticides without a label? Did the manufacturer tell these guys to cut it out because they are about to introduce their own smaller packages?


Saw that! Got mine on eBay and there were several listings, Gone!


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## The_Physicist (Apr 29, 2018)

Hey guys, I'm just about to start my 2nd grow ever and I would like some advice and criticism this time around. The plant is about 3 weeks old, planted from seed. This notill pot is around 3 years old of only water and cover crop and is performing better than expected, my only concern are pests because right now my ipm is nonexistent. My only problem so far was mosquitoes, and was corrected when I found the source of stagnant water, but I need some preventative care so a more serious issue never arises


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## Crab Pot (Apr 29, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Can anyome fill me in on how much coconut powder to use per gallon! I just recently got a bag and never used it before?


1/4 tsp per gallon


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## splitopenmelt (May 8, 2018)

Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It’s been my playbook over the last year as I’ve prepared myself for the opportunity to grow my limit notill under the summer sun.

I underestimated how much of a feat mixing six yards of soil from scratch would be. My back is glad that part is over lol here’s my mix...

1/3 peat moss
1/3 Vermont Compost
1/3 Aeration mix (growstones GS-2, perlite and rice hulls)

Rock dusts:
2 parts glacial
2 parts basalt
1 part oyster shell flour
1 part gypsum
.5 part azomite

Amendments: 1/2 cup per cu. ft.
Kelp Meal
Crustacean Meal
Neem/Karanja mix

Yesterday I potted all this, sowed some clover and watered each pot with about 10gal. of well water with some mosquito dunks and em-1 added. I plan to chop and drop the clover and plant into them first week of June. This is my first time trying this so I’m going to stay tuned to the thread, try and keep it simple and hope for the best..any advice or feedback would be greatly


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## ShLUbY (May 8, 2018)

splitopenmelt said:


> Thanks to everyone who has contributed to this thread. It’s been my playbook over the last year as I’ve prepared myself for the opportunity to grow my limit notill under the summer sun.
> 
> I underestimated how much of a feat mixing six yards of soil from scratch would be. My back is glad that part is over lol here’s my mix...
> 
> ...


plan on getting something to boost your K for flower. any organic "bloom" fert will do fine. will you make it without it... sure... but will your yields be much better with it... DEFINITELY. Good luck! wish i had a space like that for outdoor


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## Chronikool (May 8, 2018)

Power OG #6 - 44 Dayz in ROLS


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## MrKnotty (May 10, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Power OG #6 - 44 Dayz in ROLS
> View attachment 4133146


Sexy


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 10, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Power OG #6 - 44 Dayz in ROLS
> View attachment 4133146


How did u put ur pic on the pic? I love that so no one can steal your shit and claim it as their own!!!!


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## Chronikool (May 11, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> How did u put ur pic on the pic? I love that so no one can steal your shit and claim it as their own!!!!


Just a watermark i put on all my pix. Habbit really. Yeah...i guess they could crop it off if they really wanted.. but at that point it would be more of a compliment to me that somebody went to all that trouble..


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## ShLUbY (May 11, 2018)

The_Physicist said:


> Hey guys, I'm just about to start my 2nd grow ever and I would like some advice and criticism this time around. The plant is about 3 weeks old, planted from seed. This notill pot is around 3 years old of only water and cover crop and is performing better than expected, my only concern are pests because right now my ipm is nonexistent. My only problem so far was mosquitoes, and was corrected when I found the source of stagnant water, but I need some preventative care so a more serious issue never arises


sorry, I know this is from a couple weeks ago at this point but I never saw this post  I would find something you can use as a drip tray for those pots, and then fill it with pumice or perlite (whatever solid aeration you use, hell hydroton would work too) and then set your no till pot on top of that. that will allow air to get under the pots and any water that happens to drain away will adhere to the drainage material and dry away quickly.


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## Og grumble (May 15, 2018)

I've been lurking around here for a while now. Im on page 155 so i still have a while to go but i have learned so much already. I would like to thank all of you who have contributed and shared all of the priceless knowledge in this thread. There are too many of you to name. Well, I am proud to say i have never used a bottled nute/chemical. I bought a couple while i was gathering supplies for my first grow, still deciding how i would go about it, but thankfully never used them. I found this thread right before i started my first grow and instantly decided organics is the way for me. Well for all really, we just have to get the rest of them here with us. Anyway I'll quit rambling. I just wanted to introduce myself and say thanks to everyone who has helped me and countless others im sure.
So heres my first grow. cookies and critical grown in los which will eventually become no till when i have more space.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 15, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> I've been lurking around here for a while now. Im on page 155 so i still have a while to go but i have learned so much already. I would like to thank all of you who have contributed and shared all of the priceless knowledge in this thread. There are too many of you to name. Well, I am proud to say i have never used a bottled nute/chemical. I bought a couple while i was gathering supplies for my first grow, still deciding how i would go about it, but thankfully never used them. I found this thread right before i started my first grow and instantly decided organics is the way for me. Well for all really, we just have to get the rest of them here with us. Anyway I'll quit rambling. I just wanted to introduce myself and say thanks to everyone who has helped me and countless others im sure.
> So heres my first grow. cookies and critical grown in los which will eventually become no till when i have more space.


Yet another has been converted to the dark side! Welcome young jedi! "The Best growing I hope you do!"


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## Og grumble (May 15, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Yet another has been converted to the dark side! Welcome young jedi! "The Best growing I hope you do!"


Thank you and you as well. I still have over half of this thread to read. I have read teaming with microbes and im about to read true living organics. Trying to get my boss to read them as well( i work in a dispensary/grow facility) as we grow almost completely organically, but not the way i personally like to. Im getting them to come around to the no-till living soil idea. Now if i can just get them off clonex I'll be stoked. But thats not my grow and the boss doesnt really listen lol. Ill keep trying to make them see the light. Now i gotta get back to reading i got catching up to do!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (May 15, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> Thank you and you as well. I still have over half of this thread to read. I have read teaming with microbes and im about to read true living organics. Trying to get my boss to read them as well( i work in a dispensary/grow facility) as we grow almost completely organically, but not the way i personally like to. Im getting them to come around to the no-till living soil idea. Now if i can just get them off clonex I'll be stoked. But thats not my grow and the boss doesnt really listen lol. Ill keep trying to make them see the light. Now i gotta get back to reading i got catching up to do!


To be honest I still use clonex some will argue yes it still chemicals which makes the entire plant no longer organic but I seriously doubt it matter it's just some rooting hormones and makes my life easier! So I'm 100% organic except for clonex lol


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## Og grumble (May 16, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> To be honest I still use clonex some will argue yes it still chemicals which makes the entire plant no longer organic but I seriously doubt it matter it's just some rooting hormones and makes my life easier! So I'm 100% organic except for clonex lol


Well for me at least, one of the main things is being sustainable and being far away from bottles and hydro stores. Aloe works well for cloning and is far cheaper(if you grow it) and far more sustainable than clonex. Just my 2 cents. Im using it at work because i have to but i wont use it in my garden. To each his own you know. Happy growing.


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## Strudelheim (May 16, 2018)

Keep on seeing people post recipes and questions using total amount of amendments with total amount of cubic feet. So 6 Cubic feet and then the total ammendments. If everyone only posted on a per cubic foot basis, it would be so much easier for everyone to compare. Then you simply multiply by how many cubic feet mix you want to make. So everyone break it down to per cubic foot ammendments, post that.

Heres my mix.

PER CUBIC FOOT (8 LOOSE FILLED GALLONS)

[] 1 Cup Bonemeal
[]1/2 Cup Dehydrated Molasses
[]1/2 Cup Kelp
[]1/2 Cup Alfalfa
[]1/2 Cup Blood meal
[]1/2 Cup Glacial Rock Dust
[]1/3 Cup Oyster Shell
[]1/3 Cup Dolomite Lime
[]1/3 Cup Gypsum
[]1/4 Cup Azomite
[]1/4 Cup Basalt 

40% Peat
40% Perlite
20% EWC


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## Chronikool (May 16, 2018)

Power OG #10 - Day 52 in ROLS


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## Aolelon (May 16, 2018)

Ive got a question, I have some soil cooking in a 55gal barrel (a little under half full) its been soaking for like 3 weeks now. I was reading you should be able to feel the warms of the microbes breaking down the stuff, but lately when I stick my hand in there its pretty cold.. I usually roll the barrel around the yard to make sure the soil is mixed and not getting anaerobic. Is that normal and will it be fine for when im ready to use it?


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## charface (May 16, 2018)

Aolelon said:


> Ive got a question, I have some soil cooking in a 55gal barrel (a little under half full) its been soaking for like 3 weeks now. I was reading you should be able to feel the warms of the microbes breaking down the stuff, but lately when I stick my hand in there its pretty cold.. I usually roll the barrel around the yard to make sure the soil is mixed and not getting anaerobic. Is that normal and will it be fine for when im ready to use it?


I thought about something like this, does it require air holes?

Was even thinking of using a portable cement mixer. Im lazy


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## Aolelon (May 16, 2018)

charface said:


> I thought about something like this, does it require air holes?
> 
> Was even thinking of using a portable cement mixer. Im lazy


I have air holes in it, covered with screens. 4 of them at the top about 4-5" in diameter. But I make sure to turn the soil 1-2 times daily to make sure it's getting enough oxygen at the bottom.


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## Og grumble (May 24, 2018)

What is everyone's favorite thing to use for mulch?


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 24, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> What is everyone's favorite thing to use for mulch?


I like to use barley straw haven't tried much of anything else!


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## Og grumble (May 24, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I like to use barley straw haven't tried much of anything else!


I thought about barley straw. Any ideas where to get some?


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## hillbill (May 24, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> What is everyone's favorite thing to use for mulch?


No mulching here but I top dress at 4 weeks with a nice layer of my castings and fish bone meal. I use COBs and LEDs and the tops of my containers do not get as dry as when I used HID lights.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 24, 2018)

Online is only place I know or maybe local hydro shop


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## Og grumble (May 24, 2018)

hillbill said:


> No mulching here but I top dress at 4 weeks with a nice layer of my castings and fish bone meal. I use COBs and LEDs and the tops of my containers do not get as dry as when I used HID lights.


I only run led as well. But the tops of mine do get dry.


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## Og grumble (May 24, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Online is only place I know or maybe local hydro shop


I was thinking rice hulls if i cant find any barley straw locally. I can find rice hulls nearby for cheap.


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## SCJedi (May 24, 2018)

I just use regular straw from the feed store


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## SageFromZen (May 24, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I like to use barley straw haven't tried much of anything else!


Lawn clippings!


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 24, 2018)

I've heard of ppl using stems from previous harvest but I've also heard of that creating problems as well!


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## hillbill (May 25, 2018)

Waste from harvest goes to compost barrel and worm bin. Keeps things from piling up. Dried lawn clippings seems reasonable.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 25, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Waste from harvest goes to compost barrel and worm bin. Keeps things from piling up. Dried lawn clippings seems reasonable.


Be careful fresh cutting Ina. Worm bin get very hot and can kill the worms!!!


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## Chronikool (May 27, 2018)

Living Mulch AKA as companion crop for me (alfalfa and clover) Getz pretty shaded down there, that the soil wont dry out anywayz...well that and the blumats doing their job.


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## SCJedi (May 27, 2018)

I actually use untreated white clover, straw from the feed store. My Blumats arrive on Tuesday. @Chronikool, how hard was it to get the Blumats dialed in?


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## Chronikool (May 27, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> I actually use untreated white clover, straw from the feed store. My Blumats arrive on Tuesday. @Chronikool, how hard was it to get the Blumats dialed in?


Oh good stuff. Youll love them! Easy as childs play yo! I set them to about a drip every 4ish seconds i guess. (rough) After each round i take the carrots off their tops....give them a quick scrub to get the excess soil off and soak them in a bucket of clean water as then refill them as im reseting my new plants. Been doing the routine with them for about 4 years now and still going strong with the same Blumats.  

There will be a bit of figuring out for sure. Just check them all the time to start then it will be second nature to you before long.


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## SCJedi (May 27, 2018)

Just a tad worried about getting started because come July and August it gets stupid hot here and I'm in full sun. I guess I can dial them open a bit more if I think they are keeping everything too dry or they cannot keep up.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 27, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> I actually use untreated white clover, straw from the feed store. My Blumats arrive on Tuesday. @Chronikool, how hard was it to get the Blumats dialed in?


 Can someone tell me what a bluemat is???


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## Chronikool (May 27, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Just a tad worried about getting started because come July and August it gets stupid hot here and I'm in full sun. I guess I can dial them open a bit more if I think they are keeping everything too dry or they cannot keep up.


Oh right...you are outside with them..? Never seen them run outdoorz.


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## Chronikool (May 27, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Can someone tell me what a bluemat is???


'Tropf Blumat' an Austrian irrigation system. No power needed. Uses positive and negative pressure through a ceramic probe(s) to facilitate optimal moisture levels in your media.


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## SCJedi (May 27, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Can someone tell me what a bluemat is???


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (May 27, 2018)

Wow that is very cool never seen that before but I think I like to control when and what my girls drink!


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## SCJedi (May 27, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Wow that is very cool never seen that before but I think I like to control when and what my girls drink!


Well, since I feed my soil and not the plants I'm hooking my passive Blumat loop to a 55g reservoir of filtered water with auto top-off. If I can keep my soil at optimum moisture level it creates the optimum ecosystem for microbiota. The happier my soil is the happier my plants will be.


Oh, that and I had a pump die on a string of 100+ degree days last year and take two plants with it. I'll still hand water and foliar with ACT on a weekly basis.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 27, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Well, since I feed my soil and not the plants I'm hooking my passive Blumat loop to a 55g reservoir of filtered water with auto top-off. If I can keep my soil at optimum moisture level it creates the optimum ecosystem for microbiota. The happier my soil is the happier my plants will be.
> 
> 
> Oh, that and I had a pump die on a string of 100+ degree days last year and take two plants with it. I'll still hand water and foliar with ACT on a weekly basis.


You do make a very good point! And the more I consider it the more I see why your correct! But let me ask you this I'm indoor and the wife is not gunna let me run a hose from the bathroom into my grow room lol is there any other reasonable options? Not running a hose from outside either lol has to be out of site to be OK with the boss!


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 27, 2018)

I'm also uhh not in a green state if u know what I mean lol! So I'm kinda on the low low!


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## ANC (May 27, 2018)

I don't trust those blumats, but I do sometimes use those hollow ceramic spikes for pot plants you fill with water, when it is the hot season outdoors.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 27, 2018)

I also don't have room for a giant reservoir the more I think about this the more I want to do it but it's just doesn't seem reasonable for my situation but soon I'm buying a house with the wife and plan to have a basement lol that's my only requirement! Lol made a deal with the boss she choozes everything else lol... sacrifices lol


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 27, 2018)

Anyone care to share some links to their journal I love checking out other ppls shit and getting tips and tricks from it. Organics only plz!


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## Chronikool (May 28, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I also don't have room for a giant reservoir the more I think about this the more I want to do it but it's just doesn't seem reasonable for my situation but soon I'm buying a house with the wife and plan to have a basement lol that's my only requirement! Lol made a deal with the boss she choozes everything else lol... sacrifices lol


What do you consider to be a giant reserviour? I have one that is about 20 gallons. Sits about 3 feet above my floor. Feeds my 5 flowering tents for about 4-5 days at constant drip...(or when the soil tellz it too) 

So that is 20 x 5 gallon fabric pots. 


Blumat lines go in the front of the tents.


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## Aolelon (May 28, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I'm also uhh not in a green state if u know what I mean lol! So I'm kinda on the low low!


I call them Non-Complaint states.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 28, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> What do you consider to be a giant reserviour? I have one that is about 20 gallons. Sits about 3 feet above my floor. Feeds my 5 flowering tents for about 4-5 days at constant drip...(or when the soil tellz it too)
> 
> So that is 20 x 5 gallon fabric pots.
> 
> ...


That's my dream set up lol I'm planning something very similar when we get our new house! And 20 gallons would work for me I could fit that with my set up that I have now! I'm gunna have to start looking into this bc to be honest the only hard parts of growing is waterings and trimming lol! I'd love to only have to check my rez. Every once in while!

I have a few questions if u don't mind

1 what do u use to keep stuff from growing in your rez. And how often do u clean it and how?

2 what kinda breaker and stuff did you need to have hooked up to run that many lights and fans in your basement? I've been worried about that bc I know once I hook a few lights up plus fans and ac I'm going to be tripping breakers! If you could fill me in on what kinda of gage wire how many amp ya know anything to help me get and idea for mine! I have been designing my new grow room in my head for a year lol and your pic is exactly what I want do but I also want a small veg and seedling area!


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 28, 2018)

And I see your using cobs and qb's mind me asking which brands and sizes?

I'm very jealous by the way props on your set up!


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## Chronikool (May 28, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> That's my dream set up lol I'm planning something very similar when we get our new house! And 20 gallons would work for me I could fit that with my set up that I have now! I'm gunna have to start looking into this bc to be honest the only hard parts of growing is waterings and trimming lol! I'd love to only have to check my rez. Every once in while!
> 
> I have a few questions if u don't mind
> 
> ...


Right. So i dont use anything other then water in my rez. Never cleaned it. Small pump goes in there to circulate the water. (lid stayz on tote) 

I run 220-240v. When i thought out my setup... I wanted to keep my total setup (fans etc) at about 2300w so it could connect to my master socket at 10 amps. Everything is about 18 gauge wire. Pretty standard. 

Veg area (4 x 4 tent flipped on its side) and a clone tent are not pictured but off to the right side. Harvest every 2 weeks. 

LEDs are a mixture of: Citizen 1818s, Luminus CXM22, Cree 3590's, and Quantum boards 304s. Veg tent is: Citizen 1212s and Sunboards. Clone tent is: Bridgelux EB strips. 

Sonoff wifi modules run the whole show so i can control from my phone. (timers, switches etc)


----------



## Chronikool (May 28, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> And I see your using cobs and qb's mind me asking which brands and sizes?
> 
> I'm very jealous by the way props on your set up!


Thanks. Took a bit of planning..but works well and perfect for me.


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## Og grumble (May 29, 2018)

Yea i agree that setup is definitey admirable. I like the idea of flipping the tent on its side. Smart thinking. I wanted to use clover as a living mulch but i cant find anyone around me that sells it, and i dont like buying online. There is one place i haven't checked yet.


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## Og grumble (May 29, 2018)

You convinced me, im getting blumats lol


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## Chronikool (May 29, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> Yea i agree that setup is definitey admirable. I like the idea of flipping the tent on its side. Smart thinking. I wanted to use clover as a living mulch but i cant find anyone around me that sells it, and i dont like buying online. There is one place i haven't checked yet.


You have no farm supply store near you? Do you not like buying anything online? Clover wouldnt be suspicious at all. 

Yeah...dont need vertical space for veg...so figure id get more floor area.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 29, 2018)

I'd have to agree I understand not wanting to order offline but it's clover seeds! There isn't a list for ppl who have purchased clover seeds!


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## Og grumble (May 31, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> You have no farm supply store near you? Do you not like buying anything online? Clover wouldnt be suspicious at all.
> 
> Yeah...dont need vertical space for veg...so figure id get more floor area.


I have a few farm supply stores near me, the ones i checked didnt have any, one said they were getting it in soon. I live in colorado so its not the suspicion thing. I had to temporarily move into a small apartment for a little while and i have some crackhead neighbors that steal packages lol. Ill just wait for the farm store to get em in stock.


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## Chronikool (May 31, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> I have a few farm supply stores near me, the ones i checked didnt have any, one said they were getting it in soon. I live in colorado so its not the suspicion thing. I had to temporarily move into a small apartment for a little while and i have some crackhead neighbors that steal packages lol. Ill just wait for the farm store to get em in stock.


Damn! Quite possibly the worst sort of neighbourz to have.


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## Og grumble (May 31, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Damn! Quite possibly the worst sort of neighbourz to have.


You are not wrong at all. A few of my neighbors are really nice. A few of them are terrible, at best. Plus i live on a really busy road and my apartment is the closest to the road. If the mailman leaves any packages outside my place its gone.


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## Greenthumbs256 (May 31, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> You are not wrong at all. A few of my neighbors are really nice. A few of them are terrible, at best. Plus i live on a really busy road and my apartment is the closest to the road. If the mailman leaves any packages outside my place its gone.


You can order online and have the post office hold your package! Just gotta track it and change it from the tracking page!


----------



## Og grumble (May 31, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> You can order online and have the post office hold your package! Just gotta track it and change it from the tracking page!


Thats a good idea idk why i never thoight of that. I should just get a p.o box.


----------



## Og grumble (May 31, 2018)

Are mosquito bits/bti dunks safe for living soil? Ive seen a couple gnats. I had the hydro store order me some predatory nematodes but they said it wont come in till tuesday.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (May 31, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> Are mosquito bits/bti dunks safe for living soil? Ive seen a couple gnats. I had the hydro store order me some predatory nematodes but they said it wont come in till tuesday.


I'm sorry I don't know!


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 1, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> Are mosquito bits/bti dunks safe for living soil? Ive seen a couple gnats. I had the hydro store order me some predatory nematodes but they said it wont come in till tuesday.


Yes. It is a biological answer to fungus gnats. Bacillus thuringi-ensis: subspecies israelensis. (B.t.i.). B.t.i. is a bacterium that is deadly to mosquito larvae but harmless to other living things. Safe for soil. (Never used this product myself)


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 1, 2018)

Day 19 in ROLS - 'Ultimate Purple'


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 1, 2018)

Day 25 in ROLS - 'Ultimate Purple'


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 1, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Day 25 in ROLS - 'Ultimate Purple'
> 
> View attachment 4144765


Dude what kinda camera do you use the quality of your pics is amazing! I hope u don't mind but I did steal 2 of your pics for my own collection promise I would never try to pass it off as my own, it was just so beautiful I wanted to keep the pic lol!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 1, 2018)

I just ordered a pretty kool microscope that hooks to my phone for those close up tric pics! But I've always used my camera phone for normal pics! I'll go take one real fast!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 1, 2018)

This is my prized possession! It's gorilla glue #4 x cookie wreck called gorilla cookies from expertseeds end of week 7!


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 1, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Dude what kinda camera do you use the quality of your pics is amazing! I hope u don't mind but I did steal 2 of your pics for my own collection promise I would never try to pass it off as my own, it was just so beautiful I wanted to keep the pic lol!


Nothing really special. Panasonic Lumix G7. (Actually hoping to upgrade later in the year.) Day 19 photo is taken with my telephoto lens and day 25 photo is taken with my macro. I dont use flash.

As far as im concerned everything that is put on the internet is fair game. So you are more then welcome to do what you want with them.  

Thanks for the kind wordz.  



Greenthumbs256 said:


> I just ordered a pretty kool microscope that hooks to my phone for those close up tric pics! But I've always used my camera phone for normal pics! I'll go take one real fast!


Oh sweet. there are some amazing trich pix out there using microscope objectives. 



Greenthumbs256 said:


> This is my prized possession! It's gorilla glue #4 x cookie wreck called gorilla cookies from expertseeds end of week 7!
> 
> View attachment 4144767


I got a few freebies from Expert seeds...but havent popped them as i dont know enough of their quality. Yours lookz good. TH Seeds is my favourite breeders at the moment,


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 1, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Nothing really special. Panasonic Lumix G7. (Actually hoping to upgrade later in the year.) Day 19 photo is taken with my telephoto lens and day 25 photo is taken with my macro. I dont use flash.
> 
> As far as im concerned everything that is put on the internet is fair game. So you are more then welcome to do what you want with them.
> 
> ...


I will warn you some of the seeds I received as freebies turned hermi very bad I don't know if they were from expert seeds as well but it's was a fem blue cheese and one other they were very unstable! Just a friendly warning I'd watch them close if you do pop them!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 1, 2018)

I honestly will never grow a freebie or bagseed as long as I live! Beans aren't that expensive when u look at the cost we have all spent on our set ups! Paying a Lil extra for good genetics and piece of mind is worth it in my opinion!


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Jun 1, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> 'Tropf Blumat' an Austrian irrigation system. No power needed. Uses positive and negative pressure through a ceramic probe(s) to facilitate optimal moisture levels in your media.


SIPS are better imo no moving parts AT ALL, so easy!


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 1, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I honestly will never grow a freebie or bagseed as long as I live! Beans aren't that expensive when u look at the cost we have all spent on our set ups! Paying a Lil extra for good genetics and piece of mind is worth it in my opinion!


Ive actually had good success with freebies. Dont pop most and just give them away as i have other projects usually. 

Just checked. Expert seeds: 'Gorilla cookies' is the freebie i have from them.



meangreengrowinmachine said:


> SIPS are better imo no moving parts AT ALL, so easy!


I havent done SIPS so i cant comment on that. Pretty minimal moving parts on blumats, 4 years using them, no breakdown on any components.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 1, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Ive actually had good success with freebies. Dont pop most and just give them away as i have other projects usually.
> 
> Just checked. Expert seeds: 'Gorilla cookies' is the freebie i have from them.
> 
> ...


Grow it!!! It's one of my favorites ton of trics and solid dence nugs!!! Overall amazing strain!


----------



## hillbill (Jun 1, 2018)

I have gotten some extremely wonderful seeds as freebies and some of the American banks are silly generous. Some now have you pick your own freebies and then send more! Just a fun side thing to growing.


----------



## Og grumble (Jun 1, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Yes. It is a biological answer to fungus gnats. Bacillus thuringi-ensis: subspecies israelensis. (B.t.i.). B.t.i. is a bacterium that is deadly to mosquito larvae but harmless to other living things. Safe for soil. (Never used this product myself)


Thank you


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Jun 1, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Ive actually had good success with freebies. Dont pop most and just give them away as i have other projects usually.
> 
> Just checked. Expert seeds: 'Gorilla cookies' is the freebie i have from them.
> 
> ...


literally ZERO moving parts on a SIP (-: no chance of breaking down


----------



## Og grumble (Jun 1, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Dude what kinda camera do you use the quality of your pics is amazing! I hope u don't mind but I did steal 2 of your pics for my own collection promise I would never try to pass it off as my own, it was just so beautiful I wanted to keep the pic lol!


For real those pics are insane


----------



## Og grumble (Jun 1, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I honestly will never grow a freebie or bagseed as long as I live! Beans aren't that expensive when u look at the cost we have all spent on our set ups! Paying a Lil extra for good genetics and piece of mind is worth it in my opinion!


I have grown some dank ass freebies. And some dank ass bag seed. To each his own but i like a good freebie


----------



## bizfactory (Jun 2, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Just a tad worried about getting started because come July and August it gets stupid hot here and I'm in full sun. I guess I can dial them open a bit more if I think they are keeping everything too dry or they cannot keep up.


In theory, they should keep the soil the same moisture regardless of the temp / sun. 

When first setting them up, hand water the containers first. Then set up the carrots and open them all the way up to purge any air bubbles in the lines. Once they are kicking out a clean flow of water, dial back until there is a hanging drop on the end of the each carrot that doesn't actually fall. That should be a good starting place. I usually get the hanging drop and then dial back one "arrow" (on the brown knob).


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 2, 2018)

'Woodcock' - Day 55 in ROLS


----------



## SCJedi (Jun 2, 2018)

bizfactory said:


> In theory, they should keep the soil the same moisture regardless of the temp / sun.
> 
> When first setting them up, hand water the containers first. Then set up the carrots and open them all the way up to purge any air bubbles in the lines. Once they are kicking out a clean flow of water, dial back until there is a hanging drop on the end of the each carrot that doesn't actually fall. That should be a good starting place. I usually get the hanging drop and then dial back one "arrow" (on the brown knob).



Thanks for your post. It's ironic timing as I just finished setting up all my drippers and came inside to see it.

I hand watered each pot really well and then gave everything about 25 gallons of compost tea before starting the Blumat setup.

What I did was tighten all my distribution drippers and then back a 1/2 turn on each. I got the drips to sync and dialed back to a hanging drip plus a half arrow. For the maxis i opened up the brown knob on the carrots until I had a steady stream for a while. I then dialed it back till I had a hanging drop and then one more 1/2 Arrow. I'll check them in a couple of days as it's already 100 degrees here and stuff will dry out fast. I put clean straw out on everything afterward.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> 'Woodcock' - Day 55 in ROLS
> View attachment 4145228


So how do you like them cobs? I know ita not cheap my guess around 800 for that fixture? Not many ppl do I see with all different types lol what do you think is the best light out of what u have tried? Cobs, qp, hps, t5?


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

So 


SCJedi said:


> Thanks for your post. It's ironic timing as I just finished setting up all my drippers and came inside to see it.
> 
> I hand watered each pot really well and then gave everything about 25 gallons of compost tea before starting the Blumat setup.
> 
> What I did was tighten all my distribution drippers and then back a 1/2 turn on each. I got the drips to sync and dialed back to a hanging drip plus a half arrow. For the maxis i opened up the brown knob on the carrots until I had a steady stream for a while. I then dialed it back till I had a hanging drop and then one more 1/2 Arrow. I'll check them in a couple of days as it's already 100 degrees here and stuff will dry out fast. I put clean straw out on everything afterward.


what's with all the straw? Is it so yo dont have to cut the grass lol? I use straw in my pots but that just looks like over kill!


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## SCJedi (Jun 2, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> So
> 
> what's with all the straw? Is it so yo dont have to cut the grass lol? I use straw in my pots but that just looks like over kill!



I got a whole bale. Yes, I hate weed eating and I can already smell the catastrophe brewing with a weedeater vs Blumat tubing. I'll lose that fight.

I just put it down as a weed retardant. It looks silly because it hasn't been beat down yet. I still have about 1/4 bale too


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> I got a whole bale. Yes, I hate weed eating and I can already smell the catastrophe brewing with a weedeater vs Blumat tubing. I'll lose that fight.
> 
> I just put it down as a weed retardant. It looks silly because it hasn't been beat down yet. I still have about 1/4 bale too


If it looks stupid but it works is it really stupid?


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## Chronikool (Jun 2, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> So how do you like them cobs? I know ita not cheap my guess around 800 for that fixture? Not many ppl do I see with all different types lol what do you think is the best light out of what u have tried? Cobs, qp, hps, t5?


Started with COBs about 4 yearz ago. Been all ive used really in conjunction with single LED diodes. Probably build that fixture for about $350-450. Never grown with HPS or T5 so cant comment. Any of the COB brands on offer and SMDs.... they all work great. No major difference that i notice in my growz.


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Jun 2, 2018)

i love my CXB3590s at 3500k. Got mine from Timber and will be getting more. I am converting to LED slowly (since as you said they are so spendy) currently using a 600 W HPS AND a 5 COB bar of the cobs mentioned before. Eventually I want to have 3-5 of those bars in a 5x5 space.


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## bizfactory (Jun 2, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Thanks for your post. It's ironic timing as I just finished setting up all my drippers and came inside to see it.
> 
> I hand watered each pot really well and then gave everything about 25 gallons of compost tea before starting the Blumat setup.
> 
> What I did was tighten all my distribution drippers and then back a 1/2 turn on each. I got the drips to sync and dialed back to a hanging drip plus a half arrow. For the maxis i opened up the brown knob on the carrots until I had a steady stream for a while. I then dialed it back till I had a hanging drop and then one more 1/2 Arrow. I'll check them in a couple of days as it's already 100 degrees here and stuff will dry out fast. I put clean straw out on everything afterward.


Sounds perfect dude! Looks good too.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

I just wonder if they can beat hps in yield and quality or at least tie! That's the only reason I havent forked over the cash and made the switch!


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## SCJedi (Jun 2, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I just wonder if they can beat hps in yield and quality or at least tie! That's the only reason I havent forked over the cash and made the switch!


I have 2000 watts of HPS gear just sitting in my garage but I chose to build a $600 
4 x qb288 fixture instead. I'm just wanted to give LEDs a try. So far I'm pretty happy with it but I haven't run it through its 12/12 paces yet.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

Hey guys I'm cleaning my veg room with tons of bleach how long until the plants can go back in the room? It stinks of bleach!!!!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

Im worried the smell or left over residue will hurt the plants! No plant was sprayed or soil or pot and werent even in the room at the time of cleaning and spraying!


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## SCJedi (Jun 2, 2018)

You never need to use anything stronger than 10%. Just unzip and turn all your fans on.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

I did about 10% It was a close guess at 20 ml per 2 lt of water


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

So it is safe to move the girls back into the room it's been about 30 min and everything has been whiped and cleaned also I mopped with a swifter all thsee chems have me worried but my plants are chilling in my living room lol! And I smoke


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## SCJedi (Jun 2, 2018)

It should be fine now. Bleach just stinks. I would just wipe the floor with a wet towel followed by a dry one to get any chlorine residual up if you have fabric pots on the floor


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 2, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> It should be fine now. Bleach just stinks. I would just wipe the floor with a wet towel followed by a dry one to get any chlorine residual up if you have fabric pots on the floor


I do have fabric pots but they are in saucers! So no direct contact


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 3, 2018)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> i love my CXB3590s at 3500k. Got mine from Timber and will be getting more. I am converting to LED slowly (since as you said they are so spendy) currently using a 600 W HPS AND a 5 COB bar of the cobs mentioned before. Eventually I want to have 3-5 of those bars in a 5x5 space.





SCJedi said:


> I have 2000 watts of HPS gear just sitting in my garage but I chose to build a $600
> 4 x qb288 fixture instead. I'm just wanted to give LEDs a try. So far I'm pretty happy with it but I haven't run it through its 12/12 paces yet.


You guys mind sharing some pics of your set up! I'm always looking for ideas lol and I want to convert to led for cost and heat issues it's just is a lot of cost here some pics of my veg room and the only leds I own lol they are t5 replacements were kinda expensive but use less watts and makes a good spectrum when mixed with the reg t5 for veg!


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Jun 3, 2018)

Here are a few pics it is a just a bar with 5 cobs spaced 12 inches on center. I used it in veg for these then moved it to the flower room where it will stay. Will be adding more bars a foot or so away (so then I have a cob each square foot is the goal probably over kill lol) as I am able to get them.


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## Og grumble (Jun 7, 2018)

So i went up into the mountains and picked a bunch of dandelions. I was gonna dry them and grind them up into a powder. Should i top dress it or make a tea? How much should i use?


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 7, 2018)

I'm interested in this ^^^


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## Strudelheim (Jun 7, 2018)

I have dandelions in my backyard. Your saying I shouldn't run them over with my lawn mower?


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## Og grumble (Jun 7, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> I have dandelions in my backyard. Your saying I shouldn't run them over with my lawn mower?


If your yard hasnt been treated with any chemicals, then pick them bitches. I know they are full of goodies. I know specifically Rising moon used to talk about using dandelions in botanical teas all the time but i haven't seen him around in a couple years. And all of his posts i can find dont specify an amount to use. A bunch of the other organics guys know whats up too im just hoping one of em pops in here. Im sure you cant burn your plants with a dandelion tea so im just gonna go for it. Ill come back with results.


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## Strudelheim (Jun 7, 2018)

Whats the process for a herbal type of tea? do you let it ferment for a few weeks or boil it? I don't imagine popping a cup of it into a compost tea that is bubbled for 24 hours will make anything soluble and release into the tea. At best I would imagine some things are released when blending the crap out of it. the little particles stay in the tea that gets watered and mixes into the soil and breaks down quickly due to its size.


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## Og grumble (Jun 7, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Whats the process for a herbal type of tea? do you let it ferment for a few weeks or boil it? I don't imagine popping a cup of it into a compost tea that is bubbled for 24 hours will make anything soluble and release into the tea. At best I would imagine some things are released when blending the crap out of it. the little particles stay in the tea that gets watered and mixes into the soil and breaks down quickly due to its size.


Pretty much spot on. Everything im seeing online says the best way to go about it is to stick it in a bucket with a lid and some water for a few weeks, stirring occasionally. Its supposed to stink so dont skip the lid. Then you can dilute it from there. But i hate the idea of anaerobic shit getting to my girls so im just gonna turn the shit to dust and water it in.


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## MrKnotty (Jun 7, 2018)

Honestly you can top dress them if you want, you can make a tea with them, or ferment them. All are really awesome. If you picked enough to do all three that's what you really want. When I make a tea with dandelion I use 1-2 cups per 5 gallon. Bubble that with some of my EWC, Kelp, Molasses for 2 days. Another tea I do is just letting dandelion sit for 3 days (1-2 cups per 5 gallon). I stir it a few times a day, maybe add a little yarrow , maybe not. I don't let it sit for more than 3 days though. When I ferment dandelion I put a bunch of dandelions in a food processor with water and blend them up. I then transfer that to a half gallon mason jar and add about a tablespoon or 2 of molasses. Let that sit for a month, open jar everyday though. Strain after 30 days, use at a table spoon per gallon. Maybe less maybe more depending on how strong it comes out. 

Peace


Og grumble said:


> So i went up into the mountains and picked a bunch of dandelions. I was gonna dry them and grind them up into a powder. Should i top dress it or make a tea? How much should i use?


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## Og grumble (Jun 7, 2018)

Pe


MrKnotty said:


> Honestly you can top dress them if you want, you can make a tea with them, or ferment them. All are really awesome. If you picked enough to do all three that's what you really want. When I make a tea with dandelion I use 1-2 cups per 5 gallon. Bubble that with some of my EWC, Kelp, Molasses for 2 days. Another tea I do is just letting dandelion sit for 3 days (1-2 cups per 5 gallon). I stir it a few times a day, maybe add a little yarrow , maybe not. I don't let it sit for more than 3 days though. When I ferment dandelion I put a bunch of dandelions in a food processor with water and blend them up. I then transfer that to a half gallon mason jar and add about a tablespoon or 2 of molasses. Let that sit for a month, open jar everyday though. Strain after 30 days, use at a table spoon per gallon. Maybe less maybe more depending on how strong it comes out.
> 
> Peace


Awesome! Thanks for the info. It is very much appreciated.


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## Strudelheim (Jun 7, 2018)

MrKnotty said:


> Honestly you can top dress them if you want, you can make a tea with them, or ferment them. All are really awesome. If you picked enough to do all three that's what you really want. When I make a tea with dandelion I use 1-2 cups per 5 gallon. Bubble that with some of my EWC, Kelp, Molasses for 2 days. Another tea I do is just letting dandelion sit for 3 days (1-2 cups per 5 gallon). I stir it a few times a day, maybe add a little yarrow , maybe not. I don't let it sit for more than 3 days though. When I ferment dandelion I put a bunch of dandelions in a food processor with water and blend them up. I then transfer that to a half gallon mason jar and add about a tablespoon or 2 of molasses. Let that sit for a month, open jar everyday though. Strain after 30 days, use at a table spoon per gallon. Maybe less maybe more depending on how strong it comes out.
> 
> Peace


Thanks, that is very good info indeed. I will probably blend it then and add it to my weekly or biweekly compost teas and let it bubble for 2 days. I will also experiment with fermenting, Its so new to me I don't even know what benefits it has compared to tossing raw material fresh into the tea.

I will report back any exciting new findings!


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## NoMoreBottles (Jun 9, 2018)

Can anyone give me some advice on mixing up my first batch of soil? I am growing indoors in 7 and 10 gal fabric pots under cob's and quantum boards. My tap water (from well) comes out at 42 ppm. Tired of using bagged soils and bottle nutes and hoping to be able to use just water. After lots of reading on this forum I have come up with a list and would very much appreciate any advice on what, if anything, to add or remove. Have not bought anything yet and the brand of amendments I can get locally is Down To Earth.

1/3 Sphagnum Peat
1/3 Perlite
1/3 combo of cow and mushroom manure, EWC

Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
Fish Meal 8-6-0
Crab Meal 4-3-0
Neem Seed Meal 6-1-2
Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2
Langbeinite 0-0-22
Oyster Shell
Gypsum
Basalt


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## Strudelheim (Jun 9, 2018)

Looks pretty good for your first mix! It will just be matter of how much of each you add, and how good your manure/compost/ewc are that determine your outcome of the first run.

Here is my mix I am putting together next week. I don't have Down to earth brand in canada so I had to source from many independant retails, most I got local in bulk, and a few I had to order online.

NPK MACRO MEALS 
[]1 Cup Kelp (1-0-2)
[]1/2 Cup Bone (4-10-0)
[]1/2 Cup Fishbone (4-18-0)
[]1/2 Cup Neem (4-3-2)
[]1/2 Cup Insect Frass (3-1-3)
[]1/3 Cup Alfalfa (3-1-2)
[]1/3 Cup Soymeal (7-2-2)

MINERAL
[]2 Cup Granite Grit (0-0-3)
[]1 Cup Diatomaceous Earth
[]1 Cup Glacial Rock Dust (0-0-1)
[]1/8 Cup Basalt (0-0-1)
[]1/8 Cup Azomite

CALCIUM
[]1/3 Cup Gypsum
[]1/3 Cup Dolomite

OTHER
[]1 Cup Dehydrated Molasses

BASE
1 CF = 8 LOOSE FILLED GALLON

5 Gallon Recycled Soil Mix (33% Peat, 33% Organic/Humic Matter, 33% Perlite)
+
.5 Gallon EWC
.5 Gallon Compost
.5 Gallon Guinea/Horse Manure
.5 Gallon Vermiculite
.5 Gallon Expanded Clay 
.5 Gallon Perlite


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## NoMoreBottles (Jun 9, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Looks pretty good for your first mix! It will just be matter of how much of each you add, and how good your manure/compost/ewc are that determine your outcome of the first run.
> 
> Here is my mix I am putting together next week. I don't have Down to earth brand in canada so I had to source from many independant retails, most I got local in bulk, and a few I had to order online.
> 
> ...



The amounts is where I could definitely use some help. Per cubic foot of my peat, perlite and compost/ewc mix I was thinking of adding the following:

1/2 cup Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
1/2 cup Fish Meal 8-6-0
1/2 cup Crab Meal 4-3-0
1/2 cup Neem Seed Meal 6-1-2
1/2 cup Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2
1/4 cup Langbeinite 0-0-22
1/2 cup Oyster Shell
1 cup Gypsum
1 cup Basalt


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## SCJedi (Jun 9, 2018)

My base mix is:
1/3 peat
1/3 Bu's Blend
1/3 GS-1 (I struggled sourcing pumice)

I used the COOT's nutrient pack from Tad at KIS organics. To that I added 1C Biolive and 1C Fishbone meal per 15g of soil.

I do have a pretty in depth veg tea I feed them once a week but the recipe brews 300 gallons at a time. I've scaled it back for some smaller uses.

I just compared pics of my plants against a buddy with the sister plants. He is using FFOF and a few dry nutes.

Can you guess which is mine?


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## Strudelheim (Jun 10, 2018)

NoMoreBottles said:


> The amounts is where I could definitely use some help. Per cubic foot of my peat, perlite and compost/ewc mix I was thinking of adding the following:
> 
> 1/2 cup Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
> 1/2 cup Fish Meal 8-6-0
> ...


That looks ok to me, seems on par with most other recipes as far as amounts. I heard langbeineite is strong and can burn. Maybe start that one with just 1/8. That should be enough for you to get your mag. Ive been trying to source it myself and its on backorder still a month later!


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## NoMoreBottles (Jun 10, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> That looks ok to me, seems on par with most other recipes as far as amounts. I heard langbeineite is strong and can burn. Maybe start that one with just 1/8. That should be enough for you to get your mag. Ive been trying to source it myself and its on backorder still a month later!


I appreciate the reply. Langbeinite is the one I am most unsure about. I like your idea of cutting to 1/8 cup. Adding more is easy, taking back excess not possible. I know too much potassium can cause all kinds of problems. I was also thinking about maybe adding a bit more Kelp than 1/2 cup maybe going 3/4. I see some are using 1 cup. I am fortunate that I can get almost everything on my list from one store, its a bit of a drive but makes it much easier. Hopefully you can get yours soon. Nice avatar pic, Maine Coon?


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## Strudelheim (Jun 11, 2018)

NoMoreBottles said:


> I appreciate the reply. Langbeinite is the one I am most unsure about. I like your idea of cutting to 1/8 cup. Adding more is easy, taking back excess not possible. I know too much potassium can cause all kinds of problems. I was also thinking about maybe adding a bit more Kelp than 1/2 cup maybe going 3/4. I see some are using 1 cup. I am fortunate that I can get almost everything on my list from one store, its a bit of a drive but makes it much easier. Hopefully you can get yours soon. Nice avatar pic, Maine Coon?



Hahaha, no just a regular cat afaik but your not the first person to have mentioned that so maybe it is in her genetics. She was still a kitten then. 

Yes Langbeinite is very soluble too. Kelp has many benefits and low npk, so I myself bumped it up to 1 cup.


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## SCJedi (Jun 11, 2018)

I transplanted a male out of one of my LOS pots this weekend and the handful of worms that I had added to the soil were all tucked around the rootball. I can only imagine they are keeping that zone free of decaying roots and providing fresh, nutrient-rich castings that the plant will love.


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## NoMoreBottles (Jun 12, 2018)

I picked up everything I (think I) need, except for Gypsum and Basalt which is on its way from KIS Organics. There is a ranch nearby with dozens of Alpaca's and I am going to try to get some manure from them. Also have access to lots of rabbit poop. Would those two be a better choice than mushroom compost, which would be in a bag from store? Was going to make 1/3 of mix a combo of cow manure (which is also from store), mushroom compost and EWC. So far I have per cubic foot 

1/3 Sphagnum Peat
1/3 Perlite
1/3 combo of cow and mushroom manure, EWC

1/2 cup Fish Bone Meal 3-16-0
1/2 cup Fish Meal 8-6-0
1/2 cup Crab Meal 4-3-0
1/2 cup Neem Seed Meal 6-1-2
1 cup Kelp Meal 1-0.1-2
1/8 cup Langbeinite 0-0-22
2/3 cup Oyster Shell
1 cup Gypsum
1 cup Basalt


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 13, 2018)

Since everyone is sharing their recipie might as well post mine! 
To me it seems like everyone follows just about the same stuff!


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## Chronikool (Jun 13, 2018)

'Medicine Man' in ROLS - Day 24


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## Aolelon (Jun 14, 2018)

How do I keep my pot as from going anaerobic if I just potted into 5 gal and my plants are young? I put them in their final pots, 5 gal and they are about a week old. But I dont want to keep the whole medium wet, or can I? Should I have gone into smaller pots first and just transplanted up when ready?


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## Strudelheim (Jun 14, 2018)

dude lol...... Usually you want to upot every 2 weeks. I do 1G, 2G,3G then flip. But fabric pots and ROLS that might not be the golden rule. But that is the general rule. for example your wasting 90% off light thats just hitting soil. those could be under fluros right now in 1 Gallo pots.
If your a newbie you might have overwatering issues. a nice wet dry cycle every few days is a good first goal to shoot for when starting off. someone else can chime in if they like, thats just what ive learned works good for me.roots shoot to the edgge of the container and sprial around the outside. uppoting them gives them a whole new outter edge to fill out. I water every 3-5 days when they are nice and dry throughout the whole pot and light.


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## Aolelon (Jun 14, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> dude lol...... yes you want to transplant up in stages. Not going to go into detail about that here as you already guessed. if you just planted them in there I would carefully move them into a one gallon. that will be good for 2 weeks. then a 2 or 3 gallon for 2 to 3 weeks. thats just me though


Nah they were in a smaller pot, I just put them into those ones earlier in the night before thinking it might not be best.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 14, 2018)

Aolelon said:


> How do I keep my pot as from going anaerobic if I just potted into 5 gal and my plants are young? I put them in their final pots, 5 gal and they are about a week old. But I dont want to keep the whole medium wet, or can I? Should I have gone into smaller pots first and just transplanted up when ready? View attachment 4151005


I start in red solo cups, then a few weeks later some bigger plastic pots still less than a gallon size (sorry don't know the true size) then I transplant them into their third and final home between 3 and 10g smart pots!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 14, 2018)

Can anyone help me identify these bad boys! Had to have a buddy of mine post it to YouTube in order for me to be able to post a link here!


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## Aolelon (Jun 14, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Can anyone help me identify these bad boys! Had to have a buddy of mine post it to YouTube in order for me to be able to post a link here!


Look like soil mites


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 14, 2018)

Aolelon said:


> Nah they were in a smaller pot, I just put them into those ones earlier in the night before thinking it might not be best.


Those plants are so tiny they should be in solo cups of something of similar pots for at least a few more weeks should be a month or more be froe they see a pot that big! Not a whole lot you can do your going to have some problems!


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## Aolelon (Jun 14, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Those plants are so tiny they should be in solo cups of something of similar pots for at least a few more weeks should be a month or more be froe they see a pot that big! Not a whole lot you can do your going to have some problems!


Well u can put plants in their final pots of any size as long as you dont over water. But I was thinking because I'm doing a ROLS it's probably different as I want to keep the soil alive and a pot this big I would have to keep letting dry out as to not drown the plants.


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## Aolelon (Jun 14, 2018)

And they were in smaller cups, I just didnt like the ones they were in, they were the cardboard pots you can plant straight into the ground. That's all I had atm, I'll just stick em in a 1/2 gal for a couple weeks


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 14, 2018)

Aolelon said:


> Well u can put plants in their final pots of any size as long as you dont over water. But I was thinking because I'm doing a ROLS it's probably different as I want to keep the soil alive and a pot this big I would have to keep letting dry out as to not drown the plants.


Exactly which is why you kinda can't start the plant in any size! Either your micro life will lessen bc of the dry pot or the plant will drown bc it's too wet it's really hard to get a happy medium when the pots so big and the plants so small!


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## Aolelon (Jun 14, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Exactly which is why you kinda can't start the plant in any size! Either your micro life will lessen bc of the dry pot or the plant will drown bc it's too wet it's really hard to get a happy medium when the pots so big and the plants so small!


I pretty much figured that to be the case, I just thought I'd ask to make sure


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## Strudelheim (Jun 15, 2018)

even with rols or no till people preveg in smaller containers and then put into the final bed with a fairly established root system.

yogurt containers are a good size to start with


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 17, 2018)

Can anyone answer this question for me!

If a soil mix is too hot can you just cook it for an extra month or so to make it less hot? Or will it not change no matter how long you cook?


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## hillbill (Jun 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I start in red solo cups, then a few weeks later some bigger plastic pots still less than a gallon size (sorry don't know the true size) then I transplant them into their third and final home between 3 and 10g smart pots!


Similar regime here and I finish in 2 gallon waste baskets. Hard to not overwater with tiny seedlings in big pots and mine would not take the richness of my mix.


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## Strudelheim (Jun 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Can anyone answer this question for me!
> 
> If a soil mix is too hot can you just cook it for an extra month or so to make it less hot? Or will it not change no matter how long you cook?


The heat is just the microbial action taking place from the added materials. I find that it is slightly warm for a week or so. But have planted into this without any issues right away as well. I think people are more so concerned about the added amendments becoming available that longer is better. But if you have decent soil that is being reused then there should be enough in there to give what it needs until the rest gets broken down. 

But yes aerating and mixing up your soil will aerate it and cool it some temporarily before it heats up again. the whole process is similar to a compost really. the same thing is happening. just on a different scale with different ingredients.


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## hillbill (Jun 17, 2018)

I’ve been starting seeds in used mix plus some of my castings and fish bone meal. The used mix seems to have a lot of minerals and small amounts of NPK which works as well as anything for getting them started.


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## Strudelheim (Jun 17, 2018)

I have been starting seedlings in jiffy. Once all sprouted I plant straight into full strength soil mix that was cooking for just 1 week. Not a hiccup noticed. 

Heres the mix for reference. I would call this fairly rich in amendments.

NPK MACRO MEALS 
[]1 Cup Kelp (1-0-2)
[]1/2 Cup Bone (4-10-0)
[]1/2 Cup Fishbone (4-18-0)
[]1/2 Cup Neem (4-3-2)
[]1/2 Cup Insect Frass (3-1-3)
[]1/3 Cup Alfalfa (3-1-2)
[]1/3 Cup Soymeal (7-2-2)

MINERAL
[]2 Cup Granite Grit (0-0-3)
[]1 Cup Diatomaceous Earth
[]1 Cup Glacial Rock Dust (0-0-1)
[]1/8 Cup Basalt (0-0-1)
[]1/8 Cup Azomite

CALCIUM
[]1/3 Cup Gypsum
[]1/3  Cup Dolomite

OTHER
[]1 Cup Dehydrated Molasses

BASE
1 CF = 8 LOOSE FILLED GALLON

5 Gallon Recycled Soil Mix 
(33% Peat, 33% Organic Matter, 33% Perlite)

+
.5 Gallon EWC
.5 Gallon Compost
.5 Gallon Guinea/Horse Manure
.5 Gallon Vermiculite
.5 Gallon Expanded Clay 
.5 Gallon Perlite


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 17, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> The heat is just the microbial action taking place from the added materials. I find that it is slightly warm for a week or so. But have planted into this without any issues right away as well. I think people are more so concerned about the added amendments becoming available that longer is better. But if you have decent soil that is being reused then there should be enough in there to give what it needs until the rest gets broken down.
> 
> But yes aerating and mixing up your soil will aerate it and cool it some temporarily before it heats up again. the whole process is similar to a compost really. the same thing is happening. just on a different scale with different ingredients.


I didn't mean hot as in heat I meant hot as in too many nutrients!!!


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## 2easy (Jun 17, 2018)

Anyone in here actually doing no till or is this not really the place for that. I see a lot of organic soil mixes but its not really what im into.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 17, 2018)

2easy said:


> Anyone in here actually doing no till or is this not really the place for that. I see a lot of organic soil mixes but its not really what im into.


It's about half and half here alot are no till! But alot are rols!


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## 2easy (Jun 17, 2018)

Well i might stick around check it out


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 17, 2018)

2easy said:


> Well i might stick around check it out


Theres a shit ton of good info here! But it would take months to read from front to end!


----------



## 2easy (Jun 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Theres a shit ton of good info here! But it would take months to read from front to end!


I have my technique down just like hanging around like minded people. You know us no tillers are higher beings so its nice to not have to speak with all those lesser growers lol jk


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 17, 2018)

2easy said:


> I have my technique down just like hanging around like minded people. You know us no tillers are higher beings so its nice to not have to speak with all those lesser growers lol jk


I don't agree about the higher beings but what I have learned is the organic and no till guys are a lot more willing to help usually a lot less drama! And just over all nicer ppl! I honestly don't even go outside the organic section any more too many ppl are dicks about simple things!


----------



## 2easy (Jun 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I don't agree about the higher beings but what I have learned is the organic and no till guys are a lot more willing to help usually a lot less drama! And just over all nicer ppl! I honestly don't even go outside the organic section any more too many ppl are dicks about simple things!


I was just kidding. I actually grow some plants in coco with synthetic so im not an elitest lol


----------



## Strudelheim (Jun 17, 2018)

2easy said:


> I was just kidding. I actually grow some plants in coco with synthetic so im not an elitest lol


Grab your pitchforks guys weve got a cocoest here


----------



## Strudelheim (Jun 17, 2018)

You familiar with this thread? Its a continuation of the ROLS from icmag. Coots and a bunch of others. Its best one yet for organic and no till 

https://forum.grasscity.com/threads/no-till-gardening-revisited.1400505/page-89


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 17, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Can anyone answer this question for me!
> 
> If a soil mix is too hot can you just cook it for an extra month or so to make it less hot? Or will it not change no matter how long you cook?


So can anyone answer that ^^^ question for me and by hot I don't mean temperature I mean the soil has too heavy of a mix!


----------



## Strudelheim (Jun 18, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I didn't mean hot as in heat I meant hot as in too many nutrients!!!


Thats actually why many people interchange the meaning or confuse the two. Nitrogen is food for bacteria and they become active, then the soil gets warm. If your mix is very nutrient dense, letting it sit for another month, isn't going to change that. Whats the problem youve been seeing? I suggest to anyone to simply experiment and do side by sides. Only way to really learn in this hobby. Knowledge, reading and theory from online only gets you so far. put one plant in the rich mix. Then dilute some 50/50 with peat/perlite and put one into that. see how the 2 make out. I did that with my last Agent orange plants. I did 2 plants full strength, and 2 at 66% strength. So far both are performing identical.


----------



## keepsake (Jun 19, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Grab your pitchforks guys weve got a cocoest here


let me at him! let me at him!!!


----------



## SCJedi (Jun 22, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Since everyone is sharing their recipie might as well post mine!
> To me it seems like everyone follows just about the same stuff!View attachment 4150183


What is your source of frass? Black soldier flies?


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 23, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> What is your source of frass? Black soldier flies?


I don't really understand your question?
I use incet frass??

But I thought that was just as an extra and I didn't really have to use it? Am I missing something???


----------



## ANC (Jun 23, 2018)




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## SCJedi (Jun 23, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I don't really understand your question?
> I use incet frass??
> 
> But I thought that was just as an extra and I didn't really have to use it? Am I missing something???


Nope. I was just wondering what kind of insects and where you were buying it. What brand?


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 23, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Nope. I was just wondering what kind of insects and where you were buying it. What brand?


Ooo OK lol I was lost there for a second!
I haven't bought any yet bc I'm broke and have bills but I plan to order from arbico! Have heard a few ppl swear by them!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 23, 2018)

As for which kind I'm not really sure on that as well seems my only issue is spider mites but most are gone haven't seen one in a week but I do have tons of small white mites still not really identified some ppl say their spider mites other say their good soil mites, but their not really affecting my plants so I'm not as worried but still!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 23, 2018)

ANC said:


>


I'll have to watch that 2 hour video later lol can u give me a brief run down on what it's about?


----------



## ANC (Jun 23, 2018)

Allan dun has a talk show inviting many of the of the old guys that started off things like people growing under HID, many of the people responsible for well-known strains and other experts...
I'm about an hour in, and this one covers a lot about light and building organic soil, and also tweaking soil to reproduce the results people get from salts.


----------



## SCJedi (Jun 23, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> As for which kind I'm not really sure on that as well seems my only issue is spider mites but most are gone haven't seen one in a week but I do have tons of small white mites still not really identified some ppl say their spider mites other say their good soil mites, but their not really affecting my plants so I'm not as worried but still!


I'd go get some predatory mites and put them in your space as a preventative. Start a strong IPM regimen.

https://hydro-gardens.com/product-category/beneficials/spidermites/

I sprayed with Pyganic today as my first round of preventative. Our yard seems to be infested with small hoppers but they don't mess with my plants. I noticed a handful of ladybugs so I avoided them other than being nosey as to what they were eating.

I got 2-spotted mites last year as it gets super hot and dry here. I kept them knocked back with orchard strength sulfur and pyrethrins. 105 tomorrow so I'm beginning to look closer now.


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## ANC (Jun 23, 2018)

I used an organic pesticide that is mostly garlic oil and things like that with a bit of pyrethrin in and also mixed in Beauveria bassiana fungus spores into the spray solution. It worked really well... I flipped yesterday and can no longer see any mite activity or bites.

Remember even things that are mostly good, can turn bad when they run out of food. Even earthworms will start eating roots...


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jun 23, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> I'd go get some predatory mites and put them in your space as a preventative. Start a strong IPM regimen.
> 
> https://hydro-gardens.com/product-category/beneficials/spidermites/
> 
> ...


That's my goal I've never done ipm at all 3 years and never had an issue well I do I now! Lol so that's been my main concern on learning the last few weeks! Unfortunately I'm really broke with a lot of bills and just can't afford the predictor motes right now but I will them in a few weeks hoefully my azamax will keep them at bay for the time being!


----------



## ANC (Jun 23, 2018)

one has to learn what the plant does on it's own first... plant a seed out in a yard and watch it grow... Do another in a pot with topsoil you collected outside.... then maybe try coco or other hydro... then return to soil with the needed knowledge. my first few years of growing cost me 0c.


----------



## MrKnotty (Jun 23, 2018)

Outdoor sour D/Lemon Kush...mmmmm water only.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jun 24, 2018)

ANC said:


> I used an organic pesticide that is mostly garlic oil and things like that with a bit of pyrethrin in and also mixed in Beauveria bassiana fungus spores into the spray solution. It worked really well... I flipped yesterday and can no longer see any mite activity or bites.
> 
> Remember even things that are mostly good, can turn bad when they run out of food. Even earthworms will start eating roots...


I used _instant mite killer_ on my indoor plants a couple of days ago because I had thrips + spider mites.
Also changed the sticky yellow indicator cards and there's zero bug activity. I'll hit them again tomorrow with a weaker solution and should be good to go for 12/12.


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 26, 2018)

'Ultimate Purple' on Day 44 in ROLS


----------



## ILGM Will (Jun 27, 2018)

headtreep

Gota tell ya my friend, this is the best thread I have come across in a long time.
Oh i'em new here and just happened to find your thread and I copied the hole thread.
I have changed the way I grow this past year. I use no NUTRIENTS at all. Completely organic.
I make my own soil and I have some info, I would like to share with you all some info on new ways to grow in soil if that's good with you.

Will


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 1, 2018)

LA S.A.G.E on Day 56 in ROLS


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## Miyagismokes (Jul 5, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> orchard strength sulfur


What does that mean, exactly? Ground extra-fine?
It's gotta be better than my stuff, because these spider mites LAUGH at the sulfur I have


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## ILGM Will (Jul 6, 2018)

Miyagismokes.

Try this on on your spider mites.

Tabacco Juice recipe

Take 3 strong ciggeretes soak them over night in water and the 
hottest hot sauce you can find.
Boil it for 2 to 3 miniutes, let it cool off the strain using 
ladies nylon socks and spray the plants 3 to 4 times a week. 
You can add safer soap if you like to the mixture.
(make absolutly sure you use gloves/face protection while 
handling and spraying)


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 6, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> What does that mean, exactly? Ground extra-fine?
> It's gotta be better than my stuff, because these spider mites LAUGH at the sulfur I have


It's a string liquid


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 6, 2018)

ILGM Will said:


> Tabacco Juice recipe


Oh, I'm familiar with that trick.

I'm not saying it doesn't work, because it does....
There's a lot of fear regarding such recipes and TMV in my but I've literally never seen a case of TMV in person.

In my bug experiments thread, I top dressed with some cig tobacco to test, didn't seem to spread TMV, but I tossed the clone just in case.

I've done the juice spray (not this season), I found it not so effective on russets. But my sulfur worked great on them....


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 6, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> It's a string liquid


A what?


----------



## frankslan (Jul 6, 2018)

Does any one know where the amendmeny calculator it. It wad a excel program i think and had all the diff amendments and weight


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 6, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> A what?


Autocorrect. It's a strong liquid. 

Bonide Chemical 217 Citrus Fruit and Nut Orchard Spray Concentrate https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UJTC64/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_3waqBbCKFR935


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 6, 2018)

'Alien Rift' on day 47 in ROLS


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 6, 2018)

Is that nanners???? On the top? Or just a cluster of pistols?


Chronikool said:


> 'Alien Rift' on day 47 in ROLS
> View attachment 4161224


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 6, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Is that nanners???? On the top? Or just a cluster of pistols?


Just pistols...last ditch effort to try grab some floating pollen


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 6, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Autocorrect. It's a strong liquid.
> 
> Bonide Chemical 217 Citrus Fruit and Nut Orchard Spray Concentrate https://www.amazon.com/dp/B000UJTC64/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_apa_3waqBbCKFR935


It's actually *less* sulfur. But the pyrethrin is a good pairing, I'll have to give it a shot sometime.


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## SCJedi (Jul 7, 2018)

Building my stockpile for a solid IPM program. My MJ plants are fine. What I'm struggling with are the beetles decimating my tomato harvest.


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 7, 2018)

The Rosemary, thyme and cinnamon oils should arrive today.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 7, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> The Rosemary, thyme and cinnamon oils should arrive today.


Ever try 'Rid-Bugs'?
It's made with 258 oils.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 7, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Building my stockpile for a solid IPM program. My MJ plants are fine. What I'm struggling with are the beetles decimating my tomato harvest.


What's the aloe for? I didn't know that helped with ipm


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## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 7, 2018)

I use neem seed meal as top dressing about 2 or 3 sprays during veg with azamax!


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 7, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> What's the aloe for? I didn't know that helped with ipm


Hmm... I've got a giant aloe plant. 
Anyone know how to turn fresh aloe into a fertilizer?


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 7, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Hmm... I've got a giant aloe plant.
> Anyone know how to turn fresh aloe into a fertilizer?


Ive used it combined with Comfrey in Fermented plant juice (FPJ) dealio.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 7, 2018)

I just bubble my aloe with a Lil coconut powder then feed it to the girls once a month


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 7, 2018)

I've got a bunch of aloe steeping in a gallon of water. It started oozing slime the moment I cut it. 
I'll run it through a strainer then pour the liquid into ice cube trays. 
Then try one cube in a 5-gallon bucket on some tomatoes and see what happens.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 7, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> I've got a bunch of aloe steeping in a gallon of water. It started oozing slime the moment I cut it.
> I'll run it through a strainer then pour the liquid into ice cube trays.
> Then try one cube in a 5-gallon bucket on some tomatoes and see what happens.


Would love to know how that works I wouldn't mind doing something similar myself!


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 8, 2018)

In aloe the saponins and polysaccharides act as great surfactants. Salicylic acid kick-starts the plants defense mechanisms. It can be used at low doses for foliar sprays.


----------



## ILGM Will (Jul 8, 2018)

I hope you all don't mind me jumping in here but have you al heard about raspberry bushes and blueberry chopping them up and mixing with your soil. There saying you'll never have to use nutrient and it's best fertilizer for your plants to date. It was talked about on a pod cast I was watching on youtube. Growing With Fishes ever hear of it ?


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 8, 2018)

ILGM Will said:


> I hope you all don't mind me jumping in here but have you al heard about raspberry bushes and blueberry chopping them up and mixing with your soil. There saying you'll never have to use nutrient and it's best fertilizer for your plants to date. It was talked about on a pod cast I was watching on youtube. Growing With Fishes ever hear of it ?


I'm gunna have to look into that but I'm sure it wouldn't cover everything the soil needs but maybe along with other things it could be done!


----------



## Devildenis69 (Jul 9, 2018)

ILGM Will said:


> I hope you all don't mind me jumping in here but have you al heard about raspberry bushes and blueberry chopping them up and mixing with your soil. There saying you'll never have to use nutrient and it's best fertilizer for your plants to date. It was talked about on a pod cast I was watching on youtube. Growing With Fishes ever hear of it ?


I've always heard that if blueberry is thriving in some soil, weed will too, I don't have any experience with it and dont know if it is true


----------



## hillbill (Jul 9, 2018)

Devildenis69 said:


> I've always heard that if blueberry is thriving in some soil, weed will too, I don't have any experience with it and dont know if it is true


Beans do real well as both want slightly acidic soil. Sandy is nice for them. Might not be the preference of the beloved plant.


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## ILGM Will (Jul 9, 2018)

I can get more info. on this if you want. More than happy to. I'll see if I can't find the video on it.
Here ya go this is a very good video on no-till. He specks of what to use for BLOOM


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 9, 2018)

Hey brown guy 420 I love that dude he knows his shit!


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 9, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Ever try 'Rid-Bugs'?
> It's made with 258 oils.


So fish oil and vegetable oil aren't one of those 258, huh?
That's a full 260 oils!


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 10, 2018)

My cocktail, credit to M4K, has done a number on my tomato beetles. I have since acquired karanja, clove and cinnamon oils. 

I'm going out again tonight to respray again. Hopefully my tomatoes lose that mottled look.

http://www.gagegreen.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=62


----------



## Og grumble (Jul 10, 2018)

Rols for the win. Hindu kush-day 34 just stacking away.


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 10, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> My cocktail, credit to M4K, has done a number on my tomato beetles. I have since acquired karanja, clove and cinnamon oils.
> 
> I'm going out again tonight to respray again. Hopefully my tomatoes lose that mottled look.
> 
> http://www.gagegreen.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=62


I've heard karanja is the new neem. I'll have to try some.


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 10, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I've heard karanja is the new neem. I'll have to try some.


Mix it 50/50 with neem so if you need 2oz mix 1oz of each


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Jul 10, 2018)

Can karanja replace neem meal?? I'm out of neem and looking to get more but nice been looking at the cakes karanja and one other the named slipped my mind tho!


----------



## Wetdog (Jul 11, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I've heard karanja is the new neem. I'll have to try some.


It's not the "new" anything, both have been around since forever (2k years at least), and are nearly identical in how they work. Karanja does smell better though.

You could use either one by itself, but the best results come from using a 50/50 blend of both, either the cakes or the oils. The synergy of both together is well beyond either one by itself.

I've used a 50/50 blend of neem/karanja cake in my mixes for years @1/2cup/cf.

Wet


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 11, 2018)

I sprayed the mix in the link above for first time last night and clove/Rosemary/cinnamon aroma is amazingly pleasant compared to pure raw neem oil.


----------



## Strudelheim (Jul 12, 2018)

I just tried the organic route to deal with thrips and it literally killed one of my plants and severely threatened many others. 

Mixed this to 1/2 Gallon and sprayed maybe 10 plants - they all only have a few leaves left. completely nuked!

Mineral Oil
Neem Oil
Chilli Powder
1 Bulb Garlic (fresh Minced)
1 Gram Tobacco
Cinammon
some dish soap


Thereafter I further diluted it to 1 Gallon, and sprayed the rest and they were fine. I underestimated the power of natural ingredients I guess.

Funny enough Thrips are still to be seen, and the veg room smells like a sasusage factory from the chilli/garlic. Im pretty sure most of the thrip removal is due to the nuked leaves that had to be removed. From my understanding the thrips lay the eggs into the leaves.

Spinosad is on its way! LOL


----------



## Strudelheim (Jul 12, 2018)

Devildenis69 said:


> I've always heard that if blueberry is thriving in some soil, weed will too, I don't have any experience with it and dont know if it is true



Blueberries like a ph of 4.5, so I can't see how cannabis and blueberries would absolutely thrive at the same time...


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 12, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> I just tried the organic route to deal with thrips and it literally killed one of my plants and severely threatened many others.
> 
> Mixed this to 1/2 Gallon and sprayed maybe 10 plants - they all only have a few leaves left. completely nuked!
> 
> ...


I'd really need to know how much of each you used to say if it's the oil MIX or RATIO


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 12, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Blueberries like a ph of 4.5, so I can't see how cannabis and blueberries would absolutely thrive at the same time...


Hmm... 
Maybe I'll hit my blueberries with some liquid fish and see how they react. 
It's stabilized with sulfuric acid so I usually add liquid silica to bring the PH up a tad.


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 12, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> I just tried the organic route to deal with thrips and it literally killed one of my plants and severely threatened many others.
> 
> Mixed this to 1/2 Gallon and sprayed maybe 10 plants - they all only have a few leaves left. completely nuked!
> 
> ...


Mineral oil?!?!


----------



## hillbill (Jul 12, 2018)

Mineral oil from Texas Crude!


----------



## Spondylo Grow (Jul 12, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Mineral oil from Texas Crude!


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 12, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Mineral oil?!?!


It's actually a thing. Couple different oil sprays are mineral oil


----------



## Strudelheim (Jul 13, 2018)

Well I did some research because JMS stylet oil was mentioned for cannabis. And horticultural oil is an agriculture standard. Its all in the same family more or less, only thing different is its refinement level. And I just had some sitting on my shelf from a few years ago when my cat had something in her ear. I think it was a type of mite or something can't remember, but the mode of action with any oil suffocates the pest, or for fungus type things create a protective layer, that's one of the ways that Neem oil works as well ( it ofcourse has other beneficial properties as well). So the more refined the less a chance of phytotoxicity. And the definition of horticultural oil simply one that is chosen to be used for horticulture. Initially I mixed everything to 1/3 of a gallon, and thats what did the damage. I further diluted it to maybe 3/4 of a gallon and it had no ill effects on the remainder of plants (about 60 in total and 30 are seedling stage). So think its probably the mineral oil, I didn't measure LOLZZZ I just started pouring till it felt like it was enough. Probably about 2-3 Table spoons. but yeah it was $7 for this bottle, versus $200 for JMS stylet and 2 weeks shipping by which the thrips would be too much.


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 13, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Well I did some research because JMS stylet oil was mentioned for cannabis. And horticultural oil is an agriculture standard. Its all in the same family more or less, only thing different is its refinement level. And I just had some sitting on my shelf from a few years ago when my cat had something in her ear. I think it was a type of mite or something can't remember, but the mode of action with any oil suffocates the pest, or for fungus type things create a protective layer, that's one of the ways that Neem oil works as well ( it ofcourse has other beneficial properties as well). So the more refined the less a chance of phytotoxicity. And the definition of horticultural oil simply one that is chosen to be used for horticulture. Initially I mixed everything to 1/3 of a gallon, and thats what did the damage. I further diluted it to maybe 3/4 of a gallon and it had no ill effects on the remainder of plants (about 60 in total and 30 are seedling stage). So think its probably the mineral oil, I didn't measure LOLZZZ I just started pouring till it felt like it was enough. Probably about 2-3 Table spoons. but yeah it was $7 for this bottle, versus $200 for JMS stylet and 2 weeks shipping by which the thrips would be too much.


Shit, mineral oil for laxative purposes would probably be refined enough...
But like, try to keep your total amount of oil per gallon to two tablespoons.


----------



## Strudelheim (Jul 13, 2018)

Yeah Im gonna do 1 TableSpoon of mineral oil, and 1 Tablespoon of Neem oil. gonna skip the other ingredients, if i do it again, they are a mess, smell, and clog the sprayer, and im just looking for the physical properties of the oil to protect leave surface and smother suffocate pests.


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 13, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Yeah Im gonna do 1 TableSpoon of mineral oil, and 1 Tablespoon of Neem oil. gonna skip the other ingredients, if i do it again, they are a mess, smell, and clog the sprayer, and im just looking for the physical properties of the oil to protect leave surface and smother suffocate pests.


Neem oil is still an oil, why cut it?
It's gonna do all the same things an inert oil will, plus it's "full strength" neem.


----------



## Strudelheim (Jul 13, 2018)

Well I only have a little bit left, and its pricey, i rather stretch it out....


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 13, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> i rather stretch it out....


That's not how pesticides work.
You'll make your bugs resistant that way.
Instead of putting a bunch of shit in one spray, spray each one independently; rotate through your weapons.
Neem oil, three days later garlic water, three days later chili pepper, cinnamon, so on and so forth.
Remember to hit the soil surface, thrips love to drop to the ground when disturbed.


----------



## ILGM Will (Jul 14, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> I just tried the organic route to deal with thrips and it literally killed one of my plants and severely threatened many others.
> 
> Mixed this to 1/2 Gallon and sprayed maybe 10 plants - they all only have a few leaves left. completely nuked!
> 
> ...



One good way to repel thrips for those growing outside is to use garlic,
this is a good way to keep them away before you get them. The color 
yellow attracts the thrips and should be advised not to have this color
around your grow.. If you already have them using neem oil, and or lady
bugs can get rid of them. If the infestation is bad then you need to 
use biological solution like, pyrethrin-like insecticides.


Other Products include:

Chemicals
Hot Pepper Wax,Safer Yard & Garden Insecticide (which can be used right 
to the day of harvest),GNATROL( used in hydro in the water as well as soil)
,Doc's Neem Pest Soap,Safer Sticky Stakes,TR-11000 Pyrethrum.


----------



## Strudelheim (Jul 14, 2018)

Thanks will, yeah its no sweat, the spinosad, based on my research is the best thing against them, and it is just as bacteria culture, so also natural/organic. I grow in my house and everything is fairly open so predator bugs is not an option, they will be all over the house. Spinosad was ordered awhile ago, arriving on Monday.


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 14, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> they will be all over the house.


Predator mites don't really migrate that much, can't fly, and they're tiny. That way you don't have to live in a cloud of ladybugs and lacewings.


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 17, 2018)

'Black Power Candy Bars' - Day 57 in ROLS


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 17, 2018)

Sprayed again with essential oils tonight. Aloe 200x, neem oil, karanja oil, clove oil, Rosemary oil, and cinnamon. With bronners peppermint as a surfactant and Power Si as an emulsifier. Backyard smells pretty good. Neighbor commented on last week's cinnamon oil heavy spraying.

With respect to the tomato beetles that we're crushing my mater's there was no spray that would phase them. What worked was a diatomaceous earth coating left on for a week. I just sprayed it off with the clove oil run so we will see what it looks like when I return from The Gorge.


----------



## NugHeuser (Jul 18, 2018)

Hey guys I'm new to rols and have a question, hoping people can help me understand what's going on. 

I mixed up a batch with 2 to 3 cups(dont remember which one I went with and can't find any notes on it) of amendment per cu.ft. 
Started the plants in ffof, transplanted to 1gal with the super soil, plants showed extreme happiness in that soil, going off of the leaves, then were transplanted in 2 to 3 gal with more of the super soil and put into flower. 
A few have showed some slightly burnt tips, most have been a lush green with extreme praying. 
Now here about 3 to 4 weeks into flower I'm starting to see some deficiencies, I figured that to be normal. 
However I've got a few clones that were thrown into flower a week after rooting so they're smaller plants, used the super soil with them, they seemed to loved it, they're about 5 weeks in now with some progressing deficiencies that I've been trying to correct with no luck, so I decided to check runoff ppm in case of lockout, although these never did show signs of N tox, or dark green leaves, or burnt tips so I figured I'd be getting a real low runoff ppm. They were between 2 and 3 thousand ppms!!

So I decided to check the runoff of several plants, including ones with zero tip burn, the healthiest plants I've ever had, which like I said above they're starting to lose a few lower leaves over deficiencies, I figured they have depleted a lot of their nutes, even my great looking plants are showing into the 3000s! A few plants I gave a shot or two of bud candy and bloom booster but no way that any should have salt build up. 

So this brings me to my question. 
How are my ppms that high, WITHOUT tip burn or noticable toxicity, WHILE starting to show progressive deficiencies and still looking happy and healthy??
Do I have way too hot of soil or does rols give off high runoff ppm like that? 
If my soil was too hot you'd think I'd have burnt tips and unhealthy plants. 

So now I dont know if I need to feed more or give heavy plain waterings!? 

If anyone can please fill me in on this, my plants look great but things could go south quick because I really have no idea what's going on. I know when growing with liquid nutes you never want your runoff that high. 

Disclaimer, some of these plants are also only a week or two into flower and maybe one or two low leaves showing a yellow edge, otherwise happy, but still with 3000 ppm, and those ones have got zero liquid nutes thus far. 

Appreciate anyone and everyones help!
  

The clones, started showing deficiencies about a week and a half ago. They aren't dropping any leaves but show discoloring. If the soils too hot then why would they have been tickled pink the first 3 weeks? 3000 ppms. 
 

A couple plants lower deficiencies. 


The same plant pictured above with deficiencies, this is the plant that's kitty corner to the front pot in the above pic, about 2 and a half weeks in I believe.
 

I dont get it, ppm's in the thousands. Feed or flush?


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## NugHeuser (Jul 18, 2018)

Also, the plant behind the temp/rh gauge that is all curled was just watered and had flat leaves before that. Although I did just notice on that particular plant a leaf either showing n tox or wind burn. I do have my active intake blowing in under the canopy so I'm not sure which, I'll have to take a closer look at it.


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## NugHeuser (Jul 18, 2018)

The same plant that was curled and drooped after watering, now after some time has passed she's tickled pink to be alive, flo x stardawg, smells like blueberries.
Back to the point, maybe the "livingness" of the soil accounts for much of the ppms and is just a bit misleading?


----------



## Spondylo Grow (Jul 18, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> Hey guys I'm new to rols and have a question, hoping people can help me understand what's going on.
> 
> I mixed up a batch with 2 to 3 cups(dont remember which one I went with and can't find any notes on it) of amendment per cu.ft.
> Started the plants in ffof, transplanted to 1gal with the super soil, plants showed extreme happiness in that soil, going off of the leaves, then were transplanted in 2 to 3 gal with more of the super soil and put into flower.
> ...


You mention checking the runoff and measuring your ppm, but did you check the Ph of the runoff also? Do you ph the water you feed them?


----------



## NugHeuser (Jul 18, 2018)

Spondylo Grow said:


> You mention checking the runoff and measuring your ppm, but did you check the Ph of the runoff also? Do you ph the water you feed them?


I meant to check the ph but forgot. I'll check it on ones I water tomorrow.
Most times I dont have to ph the water, it usually comes out right around 6.2 ish.
I got the soil into the proper ph range before using it.
I've heard many people say that you dont have to ph because the soil buffers it, I dont know if that's true or not. I've just been going off the color coordinated ph test, when it looks like it might be flirting with under 6 I adjust and when it reads light green(which is a ph of 7 on my kit) I adjust.
I'll check the ph runoff with my ph pen though to get an accurate reading.


----------



## Spondylo Grow (Jul 18, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> I meant to check the ph but forgot. I'll check it on ones I water tomorrow.
> Most times I dont have to ph the water, it usually comes out right around 6.2 ish.
> I got the soil into the proper ph range before using it.
> I've heard many people say that you dont have to ph because the soil buffers it, I dont know if that's true or not. I've just been going off the color coordinated ph test, when it looks like it might be flirting with under 6 I adjust and when it reads light green(which is a ph of 7 on my kit) I adjust.
> I'll check the ph runoff with my ph pen though to get an accurate reading.


That is where I would begin. I would also monitor the ph of the water you are putting in, to see if any fluctuation. I had a ph lockout that showed similar symptoms. Checked my runoff and it was in the middle 7's. I calibrated my pen, which was also off, by almost a full point.Started watering with around 6.1 (true reading now) water and got my runoff back down to low 6's, and the plants bounced right back, drastically improving. I hear/see the same about not having to check for ph with organic soil or whatever, but I don't know. It takes only a minute to check and a cheap ph pen, and I feel much better about things when I use it.


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## NugHeuser (Jul 18, 2018)

Spondylo Grow said:


> That is where I would begin. I would also monitor the ph of the water you are putting in, to see if any fluctuation. I had a ph lockout that showed similar symptoms. Checked my runoff and it was in the middle 7's. I calibrated my pen, which was also off, by almost a full point.Started watering with around 6.1 (true reading now) water and got my runoff back down to low 6's, and the plants bounced right back, drastically improving. I hear/see the same about not having to check for ph with organic soil or whatever, but I don't know. It takes only a minute to check and a cheap ph pen, and I feel much better about things when I use it.


Yeah my pens a bit wonky, needs to be replaced. It'll get down to the correct reading(comparing to the color tests) but just takes a min or two and I sometimes gotta whip it around it the water a bit.

Directions say you should clean the globe part after each use, dont know how I'm suppose to do that when its surrounded by plastic lol


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 18, 2018)




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## NugHeuser (Jul 18, 2018)

@Spondylo Grow 
So are you in the opinion that ppms that high is normal for living soil then?


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 18, 2018)

Spondylo Grow said:


> You mention checking the runoff and measuring your ppm, but did you check the Ph of the runoff also? Do you ph the water you feed them?


I don’t pH at all, personally.


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## Spondylo Grow (Jul 18, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> @Spondylo Grow
> So are you in the opinion that ppms that high is normal for living soil then?


I've never checked the ppms of my runoff, so not really sure.


NugHeuser said:


> Yeah my pens a bit wonky, needs to be replaced. It'll get down to the correct reading(comparing to the color tests) but just takes a min or two and I sometimes gotta whip it around it the water a bit.
> 
> Directions say you should clean the globe part after each use, dont know how I'm suppose to do that when its surrounded by plastic lol


I just have the cheapest one that they sell on amazon. Yellow, very cheap. It needs calibrated, but it comes with the solution to do it.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 19, 2018)

Spondylo Grow said:


> I've never checked the ppms of my runoff, so not really sure.
> 
> I just have the cheapest one that they sell on amazon. Yellow, very cheap. It needs calibrated, but it comes with the solution to do it.


I use a cheap PH pen and it always drifts up. 
So I check it with tap water before using it and just do the math. 
Today it's 1.4 high, so a reading of 7 - 7.5 should put me in the ballpark.


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## Miyagismokes (Jul 19, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> So I check it with tap water before using it and just do the math


Nice. I wish my tap was stable enough to do that, then I could stop pretending like I store my probe correctly.
I suppose I could just also use the drops to get the daily baseline...


----------



## NugHeuser (Jul 19, 2018)

Spondylo Grow said:


> I've never checked the ppms of my runoff, so not really sure.
> 
> I just have the cheapest one that they sell on amazon. Yellow, very cheap. It needs calibrated, but it comes with the solution to do it.


Yeah that's what I have, I've tried a few different ones. They seem to all be the same so I'll be sticking with the cheap yellow and black one.


----------



## NugHeuser (Jul 19, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Nice. I wish my tap was stable enough to do that, then I could stop pretending like I store my probe correctly.
> I suppose I could just also use the drops to get the daily baseline...


I started using the drops cuz it only takes a few seconds. My pens always ends up to the point where I'm waiting a minute or two before they finally stop drifting and give me a steady reading. Mine have seemed to be solid for a few weeks to month of daily use but start to go down hill after that.


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## Miyagismokes (Jul 19, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> I started using the drops cuz it only takes a few seconds. My pens always ends up to the point where I'm waiting a minute or two before they finally stop drifting and give me a steady reading. Mine have seemed to be solid for a few weeks to month of daily use but start to go down hill after that.


I have so much tech I straight don't use...
I don't use the Hanna ppm meter because it requires a million fluids, nor the pH meter because it's comparatively slow.
Never mind my broken bluelab ec pen...
I always go back to the drops.


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## Strudelheim (Jul 19, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> @Spondylo Grow
> So are you in the opinion that ppms that high is normal for living soil then?


Yes it is normal. I have created my own own soil mix as well, and my runoff comes out between 2,000-4,000. It is not like bottle nutrient ppms where its pure npk etc. There are so many other things that are in the runoff. I noticed this too when I made my own soil as per recipes on forums, and as i transitioned from soilless pro mix with pure blend pro and my bluelabs ppm meter I as used to 600ppm going in and 1000 or under coming out. Not so the case with real soil. Stopped taking measurements since switching as there is no point trying to analyze these numbers. I do check ph of my water going in and out from time to time.


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## Strudelheim (Jul 19, 2018)

Also I recommmend for anyone that is going to actually pursue ph measurements to spend the $200 on a blue labs combo meter. If you save on a meter that gives you inaccurate readings your just going to waste time and money fixing things and going the wrong direction possibly and having poor results. So either ignore PH completely, or get a blue labs, but don't trust and take action based on inaccurate readings, I think that just hurts you in the long run. me 2 cents. PEACE!


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## NugHeuser (Jul 19, 2018)

Well @Spondylo Grow 
I think slight ph lockout is the verdict.
The couple that I had to water tonight came out to 6.9 and 7.1 ph.
I checked my water tank that was in range when I filled it about a week and a half ago and it had drifted to the lower 7s. So most likely everything's last watering or two got too high of ph, which is right around the time that I started noticing the deficiencies.
Should be able to slowly but surely get them back on track.


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 19, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Also I recommmend for anyone that is going to actually pursue ph measurements to spend the $200 on a blue labs combo meter. If you save on a meter that gives you inaccurate readings your just going to waste time and money fixing things and going the wrong direction possibly and having poor results. So either ignore PH completely, or get a blue labs, but don't trust and take action based on inaccurate readings, I think that just hurts you in the long run. me 2 cents. PEACE!


Not a Hanna meter fan, eh?


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## Grow for fun only (Jul 19, 2018)

*What is Organic?*
Organic refers to an “earth friendly” method of growing/farming and processing foods. Plants, weeds and pests are controlled using environmentally sound practices, which sustain the health of the plants, our planet and ultimately, our own health.

Organic systems recognise that our health is directly connected to the food we eat and ultimately, the future of our soil. One of the main features of organic farming is the complete restriction of artificial chemical fertilizers and pesticides in any part of the food chain. It uses only naturally composted and reclaimed materials to sustain a healthy and living soil and to protect the natural countryside and landscape. The use of organics in agriculture is obviously not a new phenomenon but a naturally occurring process.

It has been since the dawn of time that the earth has recycled its natural deposits into reusable energies and nutrition, a natural balance that has always existed and which is ultimately the basis of all growth. Humans, animals and plants are all living, feeding and expiring together simultaneously in a self-sustaining life cycle where existence is based on what has gone before, whilst providing the foundations for future life to come.

*Why Organics?*
During the world wars of the last century, people-power was in short supply in the agricultural industry as all resources were directed to the war efforts. Ways of increasing productivity and maintaining the food chain were as important as bombs. Therefore the same scientists that were designing weapons of mass destruction were set to work creating cheap chemical substitutes to replace the labour intensive organic farming methods.

These factory-made chemical fertilizers take away from the soil rather than building it. Instead of recycling raw organic materials and leaving the land to rest, chemical use meant crops could be grown in continuous cycles whilst producing large crops free from pests and other natural hazards. After rendering soil useless in the name of a temporary fix, these industrial chemicals are then washed into the earth’s water tables killing and mutating fish, algae, and coral reef. Residual traces of chemicals and pesticides can be found in the produce itself, in the food we eat everyday. The cost of clearing this pollution runs into many millions of dollars.

Eating organic fruits, vegetables or herbs, grown without the use of “chemi-kills” or pesticides, has been proven to boost the immune system of animals and help them recover from disease. We also believe that agriculture should come “back-to-earth” and out of the laboratories.

Furthermore, organic delivers the highest quality, best tasting food grown without artificial chemicals or genetic modification, with complete respect and care for the environment. The health benefits of eating organic products are numerous. Studies have shown that organically reared crops contain greater sources of vitamins, minerals and amino acids than chemically grown food due to the complete spectrum of nutrients within the soil structure. Organic produce also contains many more phytonutrients that are involved in protecting the plants from pests and diseases. These are produced profusely in organic crops due to the non-use of artificial pesticides. The plants instead rely upon the miracle of nature and produce their own natural defence system. These phytonutrients are now being closely studied in medicine and are proving to be useful in the treatment of cancer.


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## Tyleb173rd (Jul 20, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> Hey guys I'm new to rols and have a question, hoping people can help me understand what's going on.
> 
> I mixed up a batch with 2 to 3 cups(dont remember which one I went with and can't find any notes on it) of amendment per cu.ft.
> Started the plants in ffof, transplanted to 1gal with the super soil, plants showed extreme happiness in that soil, going off of the leaves, then were transplanted in 2 to 3 gal with more of the super soil and put into flower.
> ...


2-3 cups of what amendment/s per cubic foot?


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## hillbill (Jul 20, 2018)

Going back to guano for P after using Fish Bone Meal for some time. Both work well but guano don't attract animals and I have given up using it outside or 8n my houseplants. Lots of forest friends just love fish meals and bone meals. Decent price and lightning delivery from Kelp4less! Supposed to come from collapsed caves that are not active. I used it for 8 years earlier.

Thinking of a new mix to use up some my Promix and letting some more mix cycle to outside use.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 20, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Going back to guano for P after using Fish Bone Meal for some time. Both work well but guano don't attract animals and I have given up using it outside or 8n my houseplants. Lots of forest friends just love fish meals and bone meals. Decent price and lightning delivery from Kelp4less! Supposed to come from collapsed caves that are not active. I used it for 8 years earlier.
> 
> Thinking of a new mix to use up some my Promix and letting some more mix cycle to outside use.


Guano is awesome! 
It's loaded with calcium and works much faster than bone.


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## Miyagismokes (Jul 20, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Guano is awesome!
> It's loaded with calcium and works much faster than bone.


Noted.

I've always heard bone meals are slow, which is why I typically use guano for top ups. Didn't know it contained Ca in significant levels.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 20, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Noted.
> 
> I've always heard bone meals are slow, which is why I typically use guano for top ups. Didn't know it contained Ca in significant levels.


Calcium content isn't always listed on the labels, which I don't understand. 
They probably just don't want to spend the money to have it tested in a lab...  

That's one reason I like Down-To-Earth products -- good info on the label. 
Seabird guano (0-11-0) has 20% Ca. 
Bat guano (0-7-0) has 17% Ca. 

I prefer bat guano because of the chitin, but they are both good sources of phosphorous. 

Then there's Peruvian seabird guano that's a little hotter @ 12-11-2...


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## NugHeuser (Jul 20, 2018)

Tyleb173rd said:


> 2-3 cups of what amendment/s per cubic foot?


The fractions at the top left corner are being measured in the unit of a 5 gallon bucket. 

This is my new (second round) recipe I just made up. The only difference from what the plants are growing in now is I did not add gypsum and i believe are flowering in 3 cups per cu. ft. amendment. 
Yes I spelled amendment wrong lol


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## 619kt619 (Jul 21, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Yes it is normal. I have created my own own soil mix as well, and my runoff comes out between 2,000-4,000. It is not like bottle nutrient ppms where its pure npk etc. There are so many other things that are in the runoff. I noticed this too when I made my own soil as per recipes on forums, and as i transitioned from soilless pro mix with pure blend pro and my bluelabs ppm meter I as used to 600ppm going in and 1000 or under coming out. Not so the case with real soil. Stopped taking measurements since switching as there is no point trying to analyze these numbers. I do check ph of my water going in and out from time to time.


Testing runoff would be super awesome to see it's composition. Imagine having a lab to do all of your own soil testing, microscopy analysis, and Mass spectrometer data collection. I dream of the day that I can be in the lab to help take my understanding to a more precise determination.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 21, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> The fractions at the top left corner are being measured in the unit of a 5 gallon bucket.
> 
> This is my new (second round) recipe I just made up. The only difference from what the plants are growing in now is I did not add gypsum and i believe are flowering in 3 cups per cu. ft. amendment. View attachment 4168238
> Yes I spelled amendment wrong lol


Looks complicated.
I used to mix a lot of amendments like you, but lately I've gotten lazy and just gone with pre-made blends that I tweak a little.
I've had good luck with marine amendments so my favorite right now is a product called 'Bio Fish" by Down-To-Earth.
It's got many of my favorite things -- except crab, so I add it + extra kelp.
I top-dress every two weeks and can *almost* keep up...


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## NugHeuser (Jul 21, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Looks complicated.
> I used to mix a lot of amendments like you, but lately I've gotten lazy and just gone with pre-made blends that I tweak a little.
> I've had good luck with marine amendments so my favorite right now is a product called 'Bio Fish" by Down-To-Earth.
> It's got many of my favorite things -- except crab, so I add it + extra kelp.
> ...


How much do you top dress at a time? 
A mixture is of all your amendments I'm guessing?


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 21, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> How much do you top dress at a time?
> A mixture is of all your amendments I'm guessing?


I usually top dress one cup per 10 gallon pot every two weeks.
It really depends on what they need at the time. My plants are pretty big for the pot size so they go through a lot of food.
The pic I posted earlier was a 5 gallon cloth pot.
My 10s are a little bigger...


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## NugHeuser (Jul 21, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> I usually top dress one cup per 10 gallon pot every two weeks.
> It really depends on what they need at the time. My plants are pretty big for the pot size so they go through a lot of food.
> The pic I posted earlier was a 5 gallon cloth pot.
> My 10s are a little bigger...
> View attachment 4168979


Looking good for sure.
I cant wait until mine are done and I get to see what organically grown bud actually tastes like.


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 22, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> Looking good for sure.
> I cant wait until mine are done and I get to see what organically grown bud actually tastes like.


Organic is usually easier than synthetics, but not when you run small pots. 
Plants with 2" stems should be in 30 gallon pots, not 10s...


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## NugHeuser (Jul 22, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Organic is usually easier than synthetics, but not when you run small pots.
> Plants with 2" stems should be in 30 gallon pots, not 10s...


Oh I know. Keep ya on your toes


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## 619kt619 (Jul 22, 2018)

bizfactory said:


> Got any good sources for Jadam info? Looks like there is an ebook for $43 but not ready to spend that just yet.
> 
> You said FPJ and FFJ need a "nutrient source like labs". I've never heard LAB to be a nutrient source. Wouldn't that be the FPJ/FFJ and LAB would be the microbe source?
> 
> What triggered you to move on to Jadam? I definitely don't go full KNF and am open to trying it out for sure.


I found a link for a copy if you are interested. They slow the download speed unless you pay for a faster DL. Got it in about 30 mins, little less than 100 MB


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## Wetdog (Jul 23, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Noted.
> 
> I've always heard bone meals are slow, which is why I typically use guano for top ups. Didn't know it contained Ca in significant levels.


I've used bone meal for years and was always under the same impression and just never used it as a top dress, only when making a fresh mix or a reamend.

Then, last summer I gave it a shot in one plant to see just how long it really took. This was a true SxS with 2 pepper plants each in 15gal with the mix from the same batch. Top dressed one with the steamed bone meal and the other with some high phos bat guano.

I was more than surprised. The bat guano showed growth and color results in around 2 weeks. The bone meal showed noticeable results not quite a week later @~3 weeks. I had fully expected it to take 4-6 weeks to show anything. Both had been mixed with some fresh VC for a kickstart.

Locally, the bone meal is right at $1/lb ($19.50/20lb bag), and way cheaper than the bat which must be shipped. So, you simply top dress 1 week sooner and avoid the extra cost and hassle of ordering online.

Wet


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 23, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> I've used bone meal for years and was always under the same impression and just never used it as a top dress, only when making a fresh mix or a reamend.
> 
> Then, last summer I gave it a shot in one plant to see just how long it really took. This was a true SxS with 2 pepper plants each in 15gal with the mix from the same batch. Top dressed one with the steamed bone meal and the other with some high phos bat guano.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info! 
Sounds like I need to do some experiments.

Has anyone noticed a difference between animal bone and fish bone? 
My dogs prefer animal bone but will eat fish bone too if I don't scratch it into the surface thoroughly. 
They aren't interested in crab, so I just leave it on top where it eventually gets watered in.


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## Olive Drab Green (Jul 23, 2018)

Purple Haze x Malawi
Seedling Week 2 Day 4


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## IIReignManII (Jul 23, 2018)

Can I get away with using only azomite for my rock dust mixture


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## Wetdog (Jul 24, 2018)

IIReignManII said:


> Can I get away with using only azomite for my rock dust mixture


FWIW I do.

Actually, I use a combo of Azomite and greensand each @1cup/cf for my mineral needs. Works well for me.

Wet


----------



## Grow for fun only (Jul 24, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> I usually top dress one cup per 10 gallon pot every two weeks.
> It really depends on what they need at the time. My plants are pretty big for the pot size so they go through a lot of food.
> The pic I posted earlier was a 5 gallon cloth pot.
> My 10s are a little bigger...
> View attachment 4168979


 that is outdoor growing , looks good


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## IIReignManII (Jul 24, 2018)

Can someone review my components and tell me if I pretty much have all my bases covered on this soil mixture I've came up with from my research so far. I'm already up to $226 dollars on amazon for these materials, I heard this way was supposed to be cheap so I'm hoping this pays for itself in the long run? 

Base mix

1/2 Royal Gold Basement Mix / 1/2 Natural soil from outside
Earthworm Castings
Perlite

Amendments:

Neem meal
Crab meal
Kelp meal
Fish Bone Meal
Langbeinite
Micronized azomite for my rock dust
Mykos
Roots Oregonism

Fill my pots, add red wigglers and some nightcrawlers, mulch layer

Water initially with some agave nectar and let it cook....anything I'm missing here?


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jul 24, 2018)

IIReignManII said:


> Can someone review my components and tell me if I pretty much have all my bases covered on this soil mixture I've came up with from my research so far. I'm already up to $226 dollars on amazon for these materials, I heard this way was supposed to be cheap so I'm hoping this pays for itself in the long run?
> 
> Base mix
> 
> ...


If you don't need a lot of soil, I'd just go with an organic nute blend, then tweak it to your needs. 
It's similar to buying a jar of spaghetti sauce, then spicing it up a bit. 

I'm out of many organic amendments so lately I've been using Down-To-Earth 'Bio Fish' blend + crab meal & extra kelp. 

My plants are digging it. 
This little gal is still in a 3 gallon grow bag...


----------



## IIReignManII (Jul 24, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> If you don't need a lot of soil, I'd just go with an organic nute blend, then tweak it to your needs.
> It's similar to buying a jar of spaghetti sauce, then spicing it up a bit.
> 
> I'm out of many organic amendments so lately I've been using Down-To-Earth 'Bio Fish' blend + crab meal & extra kelp.
> ...


 I will need at least 30 gallons


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 24, 2018)

IIReignManII said:


> I will need at least 30 gallons


Making 4 cubic feet of soil shouldn't cost $226. 

Start with a cheap soil that's $10 for 2 cu ft. 
Add 1 cu ft castings -- $30 max. 
Add 1 cu ft pumice or perlite -- $10 max. 
Add the 3 amendments I mentioned earlier -- $45 max. 

Boom! 
Yer done and it cost less than a C-note.


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## IIReignManII (Jul 24, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Making 4 cubic feet of soil shouldn't cost $226.
> 
> Start with a cheap soil that's $10 for 2 cu ft.
> Add 1 cu ft castings -- $30 max.
> ...


Royal Gold Basement Mix - $45 for about 50 pounds
Earthworm Castings - $17 for 15 pounds
Perlite - $34.95 for 4 cubic feet

Amendments:

Neem meal - $20 5lbs 
Crab meal - $15
Kelp meal - $16 
Fish Bone Meal - $13
Langbeinite - $19
Micronized azomite for my rock dust - $26.39 for 20 pounds
Mykos - $9
Roots Oregonism - $12


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 24, 2018)

IIReignManII said:


> Royal Gold Basement Mix - $45 for about 50 pounds
> Earthworm Castings - $17 for 15 pounds
> Perlite - $34.95 for 4 cubic feet
> 
> ...


Go for it. 

I showed you a cheaper way...


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## Miyagismokes (Jul 25, 2018)

IIReignManII said:


> add red wigglers and some nightcrawlers


Those nightcrawlers are gonna die in containers....


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## IIReignManII (Jul 25, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Those nightcrawlers are gonna die in containers....


What makes you say that?


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 25, 2018)

IIReignManII said:


> What makes you say that?


It depends on how many you have. A few are generally OK in large pots. 
Soil temps and moisture levels will determine whether worms live or die. 
If your soil gets too hot and worms can't escape, they will die. 
Same thing with soil that gets too dry.


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## Miyagismokes (Jul 25, 2018)

IIReignManII said:


> What makes you say that?


Chunky's right, but also nightcrawlers prefer DEEP soil. DEEP.


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## hillbill (Jul 25, 2018)

I sell bait. Night Crawlers will die and a lot of dead ones could do harm. Belgium or European Nightcrawlers are surface dwellers and are fine at room temp with plenty of moisture. My red wriggllers aka manure or tiger worms do fine in warm conditions and some show up when I dump mix after harvest. Homemade castings are just too cool.


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## Miyagismokes (Jul 25, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Homemade castings are just too cool.


Yeah, I wish I could get a worm bed together... This year I'd probably bake the lil' bastards though, it's been hot! Next spring for sure, though...


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 25, 2018)

hillbill said:


> I sell bait. Night Crawlers will die and a lot of dead ones could do harm. Belgium or European Nightcrawlers are surface dwellers and are fine at room temp with plenty of moisture. My red wriggllers aka manure or tiger worms do fine in warm conditions and some show up when I dump mix after harvest. Homemade castings are just too cool.


The only down-side to using my homemade castings was that I had tomatoes growing in everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING.
Mrs. Stool bought a pack of 'golden nugget' tomatoes for a snack tray and most of them ended up in the worm bin.
I've got a LOT of golden nugget tomato plants... 
-- edit --
This started as a marigold in a half gallon pot but got outclassed quickly by the golden nugget...


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 26, 2018)

Marigold and clover cover crop


----------



## Grow for fun only (Jul 27, 2018)

Zoom in to see them better





96 days from clones
48 days into flower
Unknown strain kush genetics
2x600 mars hydro

Cant believe what i got is soo beautiful









Hope u guys like them almost time to flush to only add water until they ready to harvest thanks to all the one that gave me advice




good vibes only


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## Chunky Stool (Jul 27, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Yeah, I wish I could get a worm bed together... This year I'd probably bake the lil' bastards though, it's been hot! Next spring for sure, though...


You can always bury the bin in a shady spot to keep em cool. 
It also keeps them from freezing in the winter if you don't want to bring them into the garage. 

Last winter I used a 30 gallon cloth pot buried ~75% and they did just fine.


----------



## Miyagismokes (Jul 27, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> You can always bury the bin in a shady spot to keep em cool.
> It also keeps them from freezing in the winter if you don't want to bring them into the garage.
> 
> Last winter I used a 30 gallon cloth pot buried ~75% and they did just fine.


I think I may have a spot, but my yard is pretty damn sun blasted here... I might be able to make one in the back corner, but I feel like my neighbor might complain about the compost smell.
I don't have a garage, so winter might be something of a problem.


----------



## NugHeuser (Jul 29, 2018)

Hey guys I got a question,
I made my second batch of SS a couple weeks ago and I've read about 50/50 people say stir your mixture every few days and others who say they simply let it sit for a good month.
Also have read people initially watering down there soil with a tea, such as alfalfa to give it a kick start.

My first batch I kept stirring every few days and it stayed steamy warm and smelled excellent inside the barrel the entire time.
This second batch I brewed an alfalfa tea for a few hours, maybe 5 give or take. Watered down the soil, mixed real well and left it sit without mixing there after. Batch stayed warm for about a week and now is cold to the touch and does not put off much of a smell. Leading me to think that the microbes and what not are dead?
Does it sound like I "killed" the soil one way or another or do you simply think its finished cooking and ready for use?

I'm just thrown off because my first batch stayed steamy and rich smelling the whole way through(about 2 months) until it was gone.

Appreciate any word on this!


----------



## firstnamelast (Aug 1, 2018)

When re amending harvested soil for no till with a topdress, how much neem, kelp, and malted barley do you add per cu ft? Any different than re amending by mixing it back in? Thanks


----------



## 619kt619 (Aug 1, 2018)

NugHeuser said:


> Hey guys I got a question,
> I made my second batch of SS a couple weeks ago and I've read about 50/50 people say stir your mixture every few days and others who say they simply let it sit for a good month.
> Also have read people initially watering down there soil with a tea, such as alfalfa to give it a kick start.
> 
> ...


Super soils are amended HOT and need the composting time to break stuff down so as not to burn your plants. If it only stayed hot for a week then something went wrong. composting requires air, and moisture. Since you weren't mixing the pile I am sure the microbes didn't get enough air and died off. You can get it started back up though, just hit it with some microbes and turn the pile like you did the first time around. If it is still not staying hot then I would assume that the microbes have fed off all the amendments, in which case it would be ready for planting. However I would be concerned with having enough nutrients in the soil to sustain a grow if composting was shorter than a month with a "SS"


----------



## Grow for fun only (Aug 2, 2018)

Will harvest soon in this room , so what is the best time for harvest you guys did? i wanna best harvest this time.


----------



## TheBeardedBudzman (Aug 2, 2018)

hillbill said:


> I sell bait. Night Crawlers will die and a lot of dead ones could do harm. Belgium or European Nightcrawlers are surface dwellers and are fine at room temp with plenty of moisture. My red wriggllers aka manure or tiger worms do fine in warm conditions and some show up when I dump mix after harvest. Homemade castings are just too cool.


Always go with wrigglers. Them big night crawlers are too temperamental. 

Easier to harvest castings with surface dwellers.


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## TheBeardedBudzman (Aug 2, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> The only down-side to using my homemade castings was that I had tomatoes growing in everything -- and I mean EVERYTHING.
> Mrs. Stool bought a pack of 'golden nugget' tomatoes for a snack tray and most of them ended up in the worm bin.
> I've got a LOT of golden nugget tomato plants...
> -- edit --
> ...



I was feeding what was leftover of a harvested Cotten field. It was an incredible food for them, but I had cotton growing out of fucking everything.


----------



## TheBeardedBudzman (Aug 2, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I think I may have a spot, but my yard is pretty damn sun blasted here... I might be able to make one in the back corner, but I feel like my neighbor might complain about the compost smell.
> I don't have a garage, so winter might be something of a problem.


Put a black landscape fabric ceiling over your bed. It helps keep the soil surface temp down from the sun. If you keep them fed, watered and shaded they’ll be fine. Worm composting can be pretty odorless if done right too. Don’t compost really stinky shit and cover food scraps with some soil or castings. Only add what the worms can process within a few days or a week. Worms are really easy to keep. 

I’m in Florida so haven’t had to worry about winters, but I like the suggestion of burying the pot 75%


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## hillbill (Aug 2, 2018)

When I mix a normal 30 gallon batch, it only stays warm a few days but it will grow anything that comes near! Some amendments heat things up more than others and so does unfinished composted manures etc.

I may add some European Crawlers in as they are supposed to break things done further than wigglers. They also are thicker and easier to bait a hook with.


----------



## NugHeuser (Aug 2, 2018)

619kt619 said:


> Super soils are amended HOT and need the composting time to break stuff down so as not to burn your plants. If it only stayed hot for a week then something went wrong. composting requires air, and moisture. Since you weren't mixing the pile I am sure the microbes didn't get enough air and died off. You can get it started back up though, just hit it with some microbes and turn the pile like you did the first time around. If it is still not staying hot then I would assume that the microbes have fed off all the amendments, in which case it would be ready for planting. However I would be concerned with having enough nutrients in the soil to sustain a grow if composting was shorter than a month with a "SS"


Thank you, exactly the info I was looking for. I figured if it went cold that something went wrong. 
I started mixing them again and added a little water and the heat has slowly started to come back. Just going to mix it every few days. 

I have a slightly different question now. 
I had some soil, maybe a few gallons worth go bad(get a fowl, stinky feet type of smell to it) and I left it in the barrel with the lid off to dry and mixed every week or so. It stayed in the barrel with the lid off for a good month or so but didn't completely dry out. I ended up using the rest of this soil for a new batch, about two cubic feet. 
Now I'm noticing after a few days of letting it sit, it starts to get a bad smell again until I mix it all up, then it smells good. So the question is, is that "bad bacteria" really strong enough for what I'm assuming wasnt much of it, to take over all them good microbes and bacteria and start killing them? I was under the impression that the good stuff would be able to over take what was left of the bad stuff.


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## Dmannn (Aug 2, 2018)

Here my soil mix is used this year. Its pretty simple and effective. You can see pics of my plants in my grow journal. In 100 gallon pots smart pots. I do use AACT, LABs, and some organic liquid nutrient.

The base soil is out of Paradise CA. It's got some decomposed rock dust, gypsum, and topsoil with a bit of organic matter.
Each pot got:
Paradise topsoil filled until about 2/3 full.
a 30 lb bag of composted chicken manure
a 30 lb bag of worm castings
a 30 lb bag of fox farm soil
10 lb bag of bat guano
3 cups oyster shell flower
3 cups kelp
2 cups mycos
1.5 cups garden lime
3 coffee cans of perlite.


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## SCJedi (Aug 2, 2018)

Dmannn said:


> Here my soil mix is used this year. Its pretty simple and effective. You can see pics of my plants in my grow journal. In 100 gallon pots smart pots. I do use AACT, LABs, and some organic liquid nutrient.
> 
> The base soil is out of Paradise CA. It's got some decomposed rock dust, gypsum, and topsoil with a bit of organic matter.
> Each pot got:
> ...


How bad was the Redding smoke up that way? Between that and the Ferguson fire we got choked out last week.


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## Dmannn (Aug 2, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> How bad was the Redding smoke up that way? Between that and the Ferguson fire we got choked out last week.


We are about 1.5 hours south of there. It was last weekend but the skies are clearing now. 
Our cousins in Lakeport were abut ready to come down cause of that fire as well, but is fems they have it contained now.


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## Miyagismokes (Aug 2, 2018)

Dmannn said:


> Here my soil mix is used this year. Its pretty simple and effective. You can see pics of my plants in my grow journal. In 100 gallon pots smart pots. I do use AACT, LABs, and some organic liquid nutrient.
> 
> The base soil is out of Paradise CA. It's got some decomposed rock dust, gypsum, and topsoil with a bit of organic matter.
> Each pot got:
> ...


Your base is literally topsoil from Paradise?


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## Dmannn (Aug 2, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Your base is literally topsoil from Paradise?


Yes. I saw the site they were scraping from.

And my earthworm castings are from the worm guy off hwy 99.


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## Miyagismokes (Aug 2, 2018)

Dmannn said:


> Yes. I saw the site they were scraping from.


Neat.


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## Miyagismokes (Aug 2, 2018)

TheBeardedBudzman said:


> Put a black landscape fabric ceiling over your bed. It helps keep the soil surface temp down from the sun. If you keep them fed, watered and shaded they’ll be fine. Worm composting can be pretty odorless if done right too. Don’t compost really stinky shit and cover food scraps with some soil or castings. Only add what the worms can process within a few days or a week. Worms are really easy to keep.
> 
> I’m in Florida so haven’t had to worry about winters, but I like the suggestion of burying the pot 75%


I've been considering keeping them indoors due to winter... Enough to turn out some castings for a small 30gal pot or two... Either that or go big, outside.
My problem is until I'm no longer renting, I can't go full bore on it as I'd like; I actually need a minimum of a cubic yard of castings just to do my personal garden "per the recipe" that some folks use... I've never actually used worm castings at all before this season. But if they work well, and should work better fresh, then I don't see why I shouldn't build myself a bed. If I have to move, I can always grab a handful of worms and restart the process...


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## Grow for fun only (Aug 3, 2018)

Dmannn said:


> Here my soil mix is used this year. Its pretty simple and effective. You can see pics of my plants in my grow journal. In 100 gallon pots smart pots. I do use AACT, LABs, and some organic liquid nutrient.
> 
> The base soil is out of Paradise CA. It's got some decomposed rock dust, gypsum, and topsoil with a bit of organic matter.
> Each pot got:
> ...


Good to know this.


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## TheBeardedBudzman (Aug 3, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I've been considering keeping them indoors due to winter... Enough to turn out some castings for a small 30gal pot or two... Either that or go big, outside.
> My problem is until I'm no longer renting, I can't go full bore on it as I'd like; I actually need a minimum of a cubic yard of castings just to do my personal garden "per the recipe" that some folks use... I've never actually used worm castings at all before this season. But if they work well, and should work better fresh, then I don't see why I shouldn't build myself a bed. If I have to move, I can always grab a handful of worms and restart the process...


Indoor worm bins are very easy, even on a larger scale. You can stack bins to save space, and keep smell down by adding dirt on top of the stinky stuff. Indoors is better! Have fun!


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## Wetdog (Aug 3, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I've been considering keeping them indoors due to winter... Enough to turn out some castings for a small 30gal pot or two... Either that or go big, outside.
> My problem is until I'm no longer renting, I can't go full bore on it as I'd like; I actually need a minimum of a cubic yard of castings just to do my personal garden "per the recipe" that some folks use... I've never actually used worm castings at all before this season. But if they work well, and should work better fresh, then I don't see why I shouldn't build myself a bed. If I have to move, I can always grab a handful of worms and restart the process...


Indoors is the way to go and all you need is a 18 gallon tote and 2'x3' of floor space. There is no smell unless you are doing something really wrong. I have 6 bins going in the basement and my wife has never commented, even once, about any smells.

Forget that CY and "per the recipe". That might be for bagged castings, but with homegrown the stuff is so concentrated and dense anything over 10% in a mix is asking for trouble. VOE on this.

Wet


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## Miyagismokes (Aug 3, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> Indoors is the way to go and all you need is a 18 gallon tote and 2'x3' of floor space. There is no smell unless you are doing something really wrong. I have 6 bins going in the basement and my wife has never commented, even once, about any smells.
> 
> Forget that CY and "per the recipe". That might be for bagged castings, but with homegrown the stuff is so concentrated and dense anything over 10% in a mix is asking for trouble. VOE on this.
> 
> Wet


Even at 10%, 6 200gal pots needs 120cf...
That's a lot of worms. I should get my fishing license next year.


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## Grow for fun only (Aug 5, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Even at 10%, 6 200gal pots needs 120cf...
> That's a lot of worms. I should get my fishing license next year.


License for how many plants growing ?


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## Ecompost (Aug 15, 2018)

TheBeardedBudzman said:


> Indoor worm bins are very easy, even on a larger scale. You can stack bins to save space, and keep smell down by adding dirt on top of the stinky stuff. Indoors is better! Have fun!


You can bokashi ferment your material before adding it to the worm bins, this will further reduce the rare risk of bad odor


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## Og grumble (Aug 17, 2018)

What are you guys using to emulsify your neem oil?


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## SageFromZen (Aug 17, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> What are you guys using to emulsify your neem oil?


I stay away from commercially produced dish soaps(ie: Dawn, Palmolive etc), and instead use Seventh Generation Natural Dish Washing Liquid or similar that can be found at Trader Joe's and Sprouts type stores. The ingredients list speaks for itself.

https://www.seventhgeneration.com/dish-liquid-free-clear

*Ingredients:* Water, sodium lauryl sulfate (plant-derived cleaning agent), glycerin (plant-derived foam stabilizer), lauramine oxide (plant-based cleaning agent), caprylyl/myristyl glucoside (plant-derived cleaning agent), magnesium chloride (mineral-based viscosity modifier), citric acid (plant-derived pH adjuster), and benzisothiazolinone and methylisothiazolinone (synthetic preservatives).


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## TheBeardedBudzman (Aug 17, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> What are you guys using to emulsify your neem oil?


Pro-tekt is the go-to besides detergent...ain’t it?


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## SCJedi (Aug 17, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> What are you guys using to emulsify your neem oil?


I use a one pint Ball jar with a screw cap. I add equal parts Neem oil, Karanja, essential oils, K Sil (potassium silicate) to about 1.5C of water at room temperature.

I screw the cap on and just shake the bottle like mad for a few mins.

If oil droplets are still floating around, I add a bit more KSil and repeat the process. When it's a nice even liquid of yellow milky consistency, I pour into sprayer top water off to 1 Gallon, add a form of saponin (I use Dr. Bronner’s Soap) and go to town. Once in a while I add 1-2oz of Pyganic.

I do this weekly as a preventative IPM.


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## Og grumble (Aug 17, 2018)

Awesome thanks guys. Everyone always says to use protekt, agsil, ksil etc but i thought those weren't organic? Maybe im wrong... I was tempted to get this since its already emulsified but it kinda seemed like a rip off.
Also it doesnt say what the 30% of other ingredients is... Anyone ever use this stuff?


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## SCJedi (Aug 17, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> Awesome thanks guys. Everyone always says to use protekt, agsil, ksil etc but i thought those weren't organic? Maybe im wrong... I was tempted to get this since its already emulsified but it kinda seemed like a rip off.View attachment 4182625
> Also it doesnt say what the 30% of other ingredients is... Anyone ever use this stuff?


I believe that OMRI states as long as the silica used comes from a naturally occuring sand.


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## TheBeardedBudzman (Aug 17, 2018)

I’m not prepared to undermine or debate the integrity of organic efforts because of something as inconsequential as naturally occurring silica.


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## Og grumble (Aug 17, 2018)

What do they do, just heat sand up and bottle it basically? Seems pretty organic to me.


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## SCJedi (Aug 17, 2018)

Og grumble said:


> What do they do, just heat sand up and bottle it basically? Seems pretty organic to me.


Some potassium containing compounds like potash and greensand often contains water soluble silicates.


----------



## Chronikool (Aug 18, 2018)

'Black Power Candy Bars' in ROLS - Day 57


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## TheBeardedBudzman (Aug 18, 2018)

^^^thats fucking sexy.


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## Chronikool (Aug 20, 2018)

'Grapefuit' in ROLS - Day 48


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## Wetdog (Aug 20, 2018)

TheBeardedBudzman said:


> I’m not prepared to undermine or debate the integrity of organic efforts because of something as inconsequential as naturally occurring silica.


To be technically organic something must relate to or contain carbon or its compounds, so minerals are pretty much out along with most elements.

Organically compatible are those naturally occuring things that aren't organic but play well with stuff that is organic like said silica or the minerals in rock dust or greensand for example.

You are totally right about it not being worth the debate or the time wasted in discussion.

Wet


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## Chronikool (Aug 23, 2018)

'Wreckage' in ROLS - Day 50


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## SCJedi (Aug 23, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> 'Wreckage' in ROLS - Day 50
> View attachment 4185860


These are all indoor, correct?

My indoors LOS does well, outdoors, not so much.


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## Ecompost (Aug 24, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> These are all indoor, correct?
> 
> My indoors LOS does well, outdoors, not so much.


once you get the right micros balanced, you will kill it outdoors too buddy


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## Chronikool (Aug 24, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> These are all indoor, correct?
> 
> My indoors LOS does well, outdoors, not so much.


Yeah...i run 5 small flowering tents..so i harvest perpetually and have heaps of variety. Hopefully have a whirl at running a no till bed soon. 

Oh right..interesting. Havent outdoors for a few years now. So you plant straight into the soil? Or pots?


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## Chronikool (Aug 27, 2018)

'Heavy Duty Fruity' in ROLS - Day 42


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## Grow for fun only (Aug 28, 2018)

looks cool buddy there. 

Here is my pic, 5 small plants under the marspro ii 120led.


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## Chronikool (Aug 28, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> looks cool buddy there.
> 
> Here is my pic, 5 small plants under the marspro ii 120led.
> 
> View attachment 4188523


Got living soil in those skulls...?


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## hillbill (Aug 28, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> looks cool buddy there.
> 
> Here is my pic, 5 small plants under the marspro ii 120led.
> 
> View attachment 4188523


Looks like the garden from “Motel Hell”!


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## Grow for fun only (Aug 29, 2018)

There should be no problem with the plants so far, my last harvest from the mars 600watt light seemed good .


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## Strudelheim (Aug 29, 2018)

are you flowering those skulls right away? Whats your game plan for transplanting?


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## Grow for fun only (Aug 29, 2018)

flowering is too early, probably needs 2 more weeks. my last transplanting not processed well, 2 plants died. so i hope do less transplanting in the future if it is a must .

Currently running two veg rooms and one flower room. use the mars reflector 144 and pro ii 120 in a 3*3ft room, and with a COB cree 100w, for 2.5*2.5ft room. The picture i attached is the marspro ii 120 in 2x3 ft area, things going fine here. how about you?


----------



## hillbill (Aug 30, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> flowering is too early, probably needs 2 more weeks. my last transplanting not processed well, 2 plants died. so i hope do less transplanting in the future if it is a must .
> 
> Currently running two veg rooms and one flower room. use the mars reflector 144 and pro ii 120 in a 3*3ft room, and with a COB cree 100w, for 2.5*2.5ft room. The picture i attached is the marspro ii 120 in 2x3 ft area, things going fine here. how about you?


Up potting most always is deeply appreciated by our favorite plants excepting whenever I drop one in the process. No stress up potting works wonders.


----------



## Grow for fun only (Aug 31, 2018)

hillbill said:


> Up potting most always is deeply appreciated by our favorite plants excepting whenever I drop one in the process. No stress up potting works wonders.


I would say you guys are experienced here, but I am a new guy, i do grow mostly for personal hobby.  lol i think my plants are fine now under the marspro ii 120led, later when it flower i will add another light.


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 3, 2018)

Good day everyone , wake up earlier with the naughty girls in the setup.

I plan to cut down it soon. this bud is from the the ECO98 series led light, does it look amazing ? since i never expected it would be so well . so far i smile.


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## Chronikool (Sep 3, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> I would say you guys are experienced here, but I am a new guy, i do grow mostly for personal hobby.  lol i think my plants are fine now under the marspro ii 120led, later when it flower i will add another light.


Tell us about your soil?


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 4, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Tell us about your soil?


I use the normal soil, what about you? for soil i will not invest much,some seller sponsored me some soil last time. i invest much on lamp and tent, this my bro's room with 12pcs of the expensive marshydro 1600 led light , over 6,000 dollars investment in one room. my bro is rich, but i am so poor, i just use small lamp so far. well it still work good.


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## Chronikool (Sep 4, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> I use the normal soil, what about you? for soil i will not invest much,some seller sponsored me some soil last time. i invest much on lamp and tent, this my bro's room with 12pcs of the expensive marshydro 1600 led light , over 6,000 dollars investment in one room. my bro is rich, but i am so poor, i just use small lamp so far. well it still work good.
> View attachment 4192545


What nutrients do you add to your normal soil...? 

I dont really care about the lights...but you seem to bring them up a lot.


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## Chronikool (Sep 4, 2018)

'Heavy Duty Fruity' in ROLS - Day 50


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## Strudelheim (Sep 4, 2018)

Chronikool, you always post nice pics, but Ive been only around for a few months on this thread, I am curious, can you tell me or us, if there are others wondering as well, a little bit about your growing setup, soil? Want to know whats behind your always wonderful pictures!


----------



## Chronikool (Sep 4, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Chronikool, you always post nice pics, but Ive been only around for a few months on this thread, I am curious, can you tell me or us, if there are others wondering as well, a little bit about your growing setup, soil? Want to know whats behind your always wonderful pictures!


No troubles. Pretty simple with my setup and i think a lot of other people seem to complicate the growing of weed.

*SOIL:* So i 'started' this soil about 6 years ago (has moved house twice now) from some generic bagged mix/compost...(to be honest i dont remember) and it has been recycled numerous times as i have grown continuously throughout that 6 years. The magic comes from the fresh homemade worm castings and compost that i add.



*AMENDMENTS: *So i pay about 80 bucks every 6 months for my amendments. They include Blood and Bone (with seaweed) Sulphate of Potash, Basalt rock dust, Dolomite lime, Chicken and Sheep manure pellets. I gave up guanos about 6 months ago as i found them unnecessary. The rest i make at home, worm castings, compost and Korean Natural farming amendments.

 

*WATERING: *Tropf Blumats take care of my everyday watering needs and every so often i will make up a Malted Barley enzyme tea with worm castings (no molasses) or a FPJ (fermented plant juice) will be added. Not that strict on that as my soil has already got a lot of goodness in there.

 

*LIGHTING:* All DIY LED fixtures. Citizen, Luminus, Bridgelux, Cree and Samsung diodes and controlled wirelessly with Sonoff modules.



*ENVIRONMENT: *So i have 5 x flowering tents, 1 x veg tent, and 1 x clone/seedling tent. This is a perpetual setup that works quite well for me. Flowering tents are all 2.5 x 2.5. Veg tent is a 4 x 4 tent on its side making it a 4 x 7 (x4) and the clone tent is a 2.5 x 2.5 on its side making it a 2.5 x 6 (2.5) I have 2 x carbon filters that take care of the smell.
*
   

METHOD: *So running a perpetual setup, there is always something to do, and i work best when i have a routine and lots of small jobs. Ill start from veg. So from a half gallon plastic container they go into 5 gallon fabric pots as they enter the flowering tents. In this transplant i add amended soil, worm castings (worms included) and some clover and alfalfa seeds to the top so they can germinate going into flower. Upon completion of flowering, the plants are cut and the soil in dumped into bigger totes where i reamend it, water it and sit it under a tarp with 5 other totes. (so each reamended tote has 12 weeks of sitting time) i water the totes every 2 weeks.

 

Sorry if that was boring and drawn out.


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 5, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> What nutrients do you add to your normal soil...?
> 
> I dont really care about the lights...but you seem to bring them up a lot.




As nutrient it would be chosen from Advanced, that i think most growers use this one, and it proved to be the popular one. i also suggest the mars company sell nutrients and lamps together, then i can buy them at one time, while the this marshydro company seemed be so bullhead, they said they" only manufacturing led grow light and grow tent"  so far their lights good, if i have a store, i must sell light and tent, nutrients, soils and all for mmj growing , that the right way to make business. lol


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 5, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Chronikool, you always post nice pics, but Ive been only around for a few months on this thread, I am curious, can you tell me or us, if there are others wondering as well, a little bit about your growing setup, soil? Want to know whats behind your always wonderful pictures!


Agree, he always with the amazing picture, i also cant wait to show my pics for my light and plants


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## Strudelheim (Sep 5, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> No troubles. Pretty simple with my setup and i think a lot of other people seem to complicate the growing of weed.
> 
> *SOIL:* So i 'started' this soil about 6 years ago (has moved house twice now) from some generic bagged mix/compost...(to be honest i dont remember) and it has been recycled numerous times as i have grown continuously throughout that 6 years. The magic comes from the fresh homemade worm castings and compost that i add.
> 
> ...


No that I love the detail of every aspect of your setup. It really is impressive and I can see what 6 years of dedication gets you. Blumats and DIY LEDS I want to have one day too. Ive spent the last year focusing on my soil really - most important part! I spent about $500 for bulk amendments and it should last me literally a lifetime! The picture of the basement with all the tents - what is the floor, it looks like a hill of dirt? Or are my eyes playing tricks on me!


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Sep 5, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> No troubles. Pretty simple with my setup and i think a lot of other people seem to complicate the growing of weed.
> 
> *SOIL:* So i 'started' this soil about 6 years ago (has moved house twice now) from some generic bagged mix/compost...(to be honest i dont remember) and it has been recycled numerous times as i have grown continuously throughout that 6 years. The magic comes from the fresh homemade worm castings and compost that i add.
> 
> ...


# goals as the kids now a days say! lol


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## Chronikool (Sep 5, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> No that I love the detail of every aspect of your setup. It really is impressive and I can see what 6 years of dedication gets you. Blumats and DIY LEDS I want to have one day too. Ive spent the last year focusing on my soil really - most important part! I spent about $500 for bulk amendments and it should last me literally a lifetime! The picture of the basement with all the tents - what is the floor, it looks like a hill of dirt? Or are my eyes playing tricks on me!


It really is just a time thing. Everything is sort of on auto pilot and im just an overseer rather then a grower. Blumats were an amazing upgrade about 4 years ago...allows me to go away for up to a week. I havent had gnats in about 2 years..and the only reason i got them is because i brought a composted alfalfa type conpost to try. Again...the beauty of homemade amendments right there. I wouldnt be without my worms! 

Yup correct. This is setup under my house, sort of semi outside..(walled, but fresh air) I had to dig out and level the dirt to fit my tents and setup. 

Looking at changing a few things in the coming months..


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Sep 5, 2018)

Suppose I should post some eye candy... some money maker from Strain hunters just before harvest in RSOL SIPs


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 6, 2018)

You have tried sleep in the grow room with you dog and the plants babies ? and keep the cree256 lamp on all night, will you still feel lonely ? probably you need drink a little red wine and play the soft music, then have a very sound sleep, that's so ease there . LOOOOOL


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Sep 6, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> You have tried sleep in the grow room with you dog and the plants babies ? and keep the cree256 lamp on all night, will you still feel lonely ? probably you need drink a little red wine and play the soft music, then have a very sound sleep, that's so ease there . LOOOOOL
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 4193787


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Sep 6, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> You have tried sleep in the grow room with you dog and the plants babies ? and keep the cree256 lamp on all night, will you still feel lonely ? probably you need drink a little red wine and play the soft music, then have a very sound sleep, that's so ease there . LOOOOOL
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 4193787


no way I would have all that room! gotta fill that thing up!!!


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## SCJedi (Sep 6, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> No troubles. Pretty simple with my setup and i think a lot of other people seem to complicate the growing of weed.
> *ENVIRONMENT: *So i have 5 x flowering tents, 1 x veg tent, and 1 x clone/seedling tent. This is a perpetual setup that works quite well for me. Flowering tents are all 2.5 x 2.5. Veg tent is a 4 x 4 tent on its side making it a 4 x 7 (x4) and the clone tent is a 2.5 x 2.5 on its side making it a 2.5 x 6 (2.5) I have 2 x carbon filters that take care of the smell.


Flipping tents onto their side is pretty darn clever.


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## Chronikool (Sep 8, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Flipping tents onto their side is pretty darn clever.


Ya do what ya gotta when you have limiited room..


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## Chronikool (Sep 9, 2018)

'Heavy Duty Fruity' in ROLS on Day 55


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## MrKnotty (Sep 9, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> 'Heavy Duty Fruity' in ROLS on Day 55
> 
> View attachment 4195893


That is some beautiful herb.


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## Chronikool (Sep 9, 2018)

MrKnotty said:


> That is some beautiful herb.


Thanks yo! My favourite in the stable at the moment for sure. Currently in the process of reversing a female to spread her female pollen on some stock.


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## Iriemedicine (Sep 10, 2018)

Hey everyone, I’ve been slowly transitioning towards growing in recycled living soil and utilizing Korean natural farming and no till style growing. I finally feel comfortable to jump in all the way in this next run. I have redone my room, it is now sealed with a mini split, co2 injection and a dehumidifier. I’m trying to decide on what size smart pots could be used replicate a raised bed in a 4x4 space growing a single plant under a 1000 watt light in each 4x4 space (8.5 foot ceilings)? I was thinking 20,30 or 45 gallons? Any input? Suggestions? Thank you


----------



## Grow for fun only (Sep 11, 2018)

Iriemedicine said:


> Hey everyone, I’ve been slowly transitioning towards growing in recycled living soil and utilizing Korean natural farming and no till style growing. I finally feel comfortable to jump in all the way in this next run. I have redone my room, it is now sealed with a mini split, co2 injection and a dehumidifier. I’m trying to decide on what size smart pots could be used replicate a raised bed in a 4x4 space growing a single plant under a 1000 watt light in each 4x4 space (8.5 foot ceilings)? I was thinking 20,30 or 45 gallons? Any input? Suggestions? Thank you



Think a middle one like 30 would be suitable . I share you an article for your reference. 

https://www.growweedeasy.com/how-many-plants-should-i-grow


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## Iriemedicine (Sep 11, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> Think a middle one like 30 would be suitable . I share you an article for your reference.
> 
> https://www.growweedeasy.com/how-many-plants-should-i-grow


Thanks. I have expirience with 3, 5, 7, and 10 gallon containers inside and with 20 gallons outside. Just new to building and reusing soil. I know bigger is better. Not sure two 45 gallons would fit comfortable in my 4x8 grow space in my room so it might have to be 30 gal.


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 12, 2018)

Iriemedicine said:


> Thanks. I have expirience with 3, 5, 7, and 10 gallon containers inside and with 20 gallons outside. Just new to building and reusing soil. I know bigger is better. Not sure two 45 gallons would fit comfortable in my 4x8 grow space in my room so it might have to be 30 gal.



Yes for a new grower as I, also have no mush idea which would be best for me , i usually will take the other growers' suggestion.


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## Chronikool (Sep 12, 2018)

Iriemedicine said:


> Thanks. I have expirience with 3, 5, 7, and 10 gallon containers inside and with 20 gallons outside. Just new to building and reusing soil. I know bigger is better. Not sure two 45 gallons would fit comfortable in my 4x8 grow space in my room so it might have to be 30 gal.


Do you not know the dimensions of the pot you are getting?


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## Chronikool (Sep 12, 2018)

'Blurkool' in ROLS on Day 44


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## bizfactory (Sep 12, 2018)

Iriemedicine said:


> Hey everyone, I’ve been slowly transitioning towards growing in recycled living soil and utilizing Korean natural farming and no till style growing. I finally feel comfortable to jump in all the way in this next run. I have redone my room, it is now sealed with a mini split, co2 injection and a dehumidifier. I’m trying to decide on what size smart pots could be used replicate a raised bed in a 4x4 space growing a single plant under a 1000 watt light in each 4x4 space (8.5 foot ceilings)? I was thinking 20,30 or 45 gallons? Any input? Suggestions? Thank you


Why not just get a 3x3 bed like so: https://www.geopot.com/collections/geoplanter/products/geoplanter-fabric-raised-garden-bed?variant=443716873

I know BuildASoil is doing 100g fabric pots in a 4x4 on their instagram. You lose a lot of height that way so if you want to do multiple containers do something like 4x 30g pots. The 30 gallon Geopot is 24"x16.5" so that'd fit perfectly in your space.


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 13, 2018)

It’s GO TIME again!!!! Day #1 of flower for my bro C99 clones. Loving how this set up it coming along so far. 4x8 tray is on the way for Phase #3 and may new strains on deck, last night i checked his setup, hahaha he copys my idea , put two 144led reflector and side and install one lamp on top .


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## Chronikool (Sep 20, 2018)

'Blurkool' in ROLS on Day 52


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## Miyagismokes (Sep 20, 2018)

bizfactory said:


> 100g fabric pots in a 4x4


...? Why the inner pot?


----------



## Mazer (Sep 21, 2018)

Ecompost said:


> You can bokashi ferment your material before adding it to the worm bins, this will further reduce the rare risk of bad odor


Dear Ecompost,

I do not know where I got this from but I think Bokashi has a low pH that can harm the bin. Is that not the case?
Personally, I blend and freeze/thaw the worm's food prior to feeding them. I have a fair quantity of coffee/tea in their diet which seriously helps neutralizing most odors. Besides, burying the food under at least 2 inches of bedding also helps. I never had a smell unless the bin is unhealthy.

CocoChanelingly Yours,
M.


----------



## Mazer (Sep 21, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Thanks yo! My favourite in the stable at the moment for sure. Currently in the process of reversing a female to spread her female pollen on some stock.


Dear Chronikool,

First of all, thank you for sharing your invaluable knowledge. 
Then, reversing a female sounds a bit franckensteinish. Are you comfortable doing this? have you done it before? does it produce stable seeds?

MaryShelleyingly yours,
M


----------



## Chronikool (Sep 21, 2018)

Mazer said:


> Dear Chronikool,
> 
> First of all, thank you for sharing your invaluable knowledge.
> Then, reversing a female sounds a bit franckensteinish. Are you comfortable doing this? have you done it before? does it produce stable seeds?
> ...


Yeah..definitely not an organic practice... But pretty easy to produce silver ions. Yes i have done this before with successful results. I think it is important to select a female from stable regular seed stock to reverse.


----------



## grilledcheese101 (Sep 21, 2018)

What do all my ROLS guys do with there surplus compost and soil? I have a raised bed on wheels, lol, and a compost bin on wheels. Everything starts from there and is ammended within the raised bed well before refilling my pots, right now just growing chives and clover. During the winter i wrap it with clear poly and let her stay warm and keep living as long as possible.


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## hillbill (Sep 21, 2018)

grilledcheese101 said:


> What do all my ROLS guys do with there surplus compost and soil? I have a raised bed on wheels, lol, and a compost bin on wheels. Everything starts from there and is ammended within the raised bed well before refilling my pots, right now just growing chives and clover. During the winter i wrap it with clear poly and let her stay warm and keep living as long as possible.


I use it on raised beds and containers. But recycling to your favorite plants uses up a lot of it.


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## Strudelheim (Sep 21, 2018)

Thinking Ive crossed the line today. Im cooking for my worms. Made a mix of 1 cup each of barley,corn,flax,oats,kidney beans, but into the pressure cooker for 10 mins (get them soaked and soft and prevent them from germinating and growing in worm bins). I have been mixing in all my leaves and stems in the bin in large amounts, and was feeling bad for them because thats all theyve been getting really (bedding is compost and some manure thats long gone by now), so wanted to mix up their diet a bit. I have been adding the insides of zucchinis and coffee grinds mostly for the last month as well, which they liked a lot so thats why Im taking a more active approach.


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## SCJedi (Sep 21, 2018)

It's getting close to time for me to start vermicomposting again. I've been chucking kitchen scraps out for the chickens and it's just luring in possums and skunks who in turn swipe our eggs. 

There is a worm lady down the street that sold me my worms for my LOS pots. She told me she uses three raised bath tubs and just puts a screen over the drain. I've done small scale but how large is everyone's bin and what kind of casting volume do you pull out with any frequency?


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## Strudelheim (Sep 21, 2018)

I use those black and yellow bins that are $10 CAD now. they are 27G and I fill them halfway up high which is about a foot deep. You can have 3 of these at different stages and harvest one per month getting 6-8 gallons of castings each, I have 2 myself and its more than enough. I don't even have holes in mine, IMO if you are getting liquid that needs draining the bin is too wet. I just have air holes in the lid, but even a lid is not needed, I just use it to control the moisture, so if I want evaporation I remove lid, if its dry or good, then I have lid on. I like em too cause they are easy to move around into the house now that its cold for example.


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## grilledcheese101 (Sep 21, 2018)

Ill take some pics tommorow and you guys can let me know what i can do to make my compost and raised bed better for recylcling my indoor/outdoor pots. Right now im just doing basic shit i feel.


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## Miyagismokes (Sep 21, 2018)

grilledcheese101 said:


> surplus compost and soil


I haven't snowballed into having extra yet...


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## grilledcheese101 (Sep 21, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> I haven't snowballed into having extra yet...


I have nearly 3 acres of land and alot of old flower beds and plants and pots that i like to take from/add too with store bought and in house ammendments. Typically i try to keep from buying anything, but i love my coco.


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## Miyagismokes (Sep 21, 2018)

grilledcheese101 said:


> i love my coco.


You have the space to build a big hothouse, try your hand at coconut palm...


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Sep 21, 2018)

in my exp rols works very very well in SIPs the larger the better imo!


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## hillbill (Sep 21, 2018)

Check local big box Megalamarts for organic amendments. Fall is Clearance time for blood meal, bone meal and such. Save $$ at my house every year!


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Sep 21, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> 'Blurkool' in ROLS on Day 44
> 
> View attachment 4197609


man those black leaves look so sweet. Is this a black russian type cross?


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## Mazer (Sep 25, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Yeah.. i have done this before with successful results. I think it is important to select a female from stable regular seed stock to reverse.


Dear Chronikool,
I am still having issues with cloning so I will let that enlightened scientist thingymajiggy for people on (much) higher grounds.

MuchHumblyingly yours,
M


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## Grow for fun only (Sep 26, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> 'Blurkool' in ROLS on Day 52
> 
> View attachment 4201931


looks cool there


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## Chronikool (Sep 26, 2018)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> man those black leaves look so sweet. Is this a black russian type cross?


Sorry about the delay....so the lineage of this F1 is:

Female Seeds 'Blueberry Cheesecake' 

x

Sincity Seeds 'Tangerine Power' 

No Black Russian that i can see in there..


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## Chronikool (Sep 26, 2018)

Mazer said:


> Dear Chronikool,
> I am still having issues with cloning so I will let that enlightened scientist thingymajiggy for people on (much) higher grounds.
> 
> MuchHumblyingly yours,
> M


No higher grounds here thatz for sure...


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## Strudelheim (Sep 28, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Sorry about the delay....so the lineage of this F1 is:
> 
> Female Seeds 'Blueberry Cheesecake'
> 
> ...


Thats cool Im running blueberry cheesecake right now, testing it for female seeds, got 6 girls on day 10 ish... I ran a freebie seed before and it was my favorite of all the female seeds strains I ran (4 different strains total)


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## Grow for fun only (Oct 4, 2018)

Sorry for delay too, just back from my traveling, oh there missed a lot


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## bizfactory (Oct 4, 2018)

Here is some Unicorn Poop bred by Thug Pug in 11th cycle no till living soil. This is day 68 and I will probably harvest in the next two days. Had a lil run in with thrips but some predatory mites seemed to handle them pretty well.


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## outliergenetix (Oct 5, 2018)

i just wanna say i wish i had saw this cpl years ago, but my guess is if i had i would have still been to bullheaded to believe i needed all that stuff.(even tho it is cheaper in the long run in many ways). the fact is i still have not done organic soil correctly as i never fully committed and or used sub par products from home depot that just gave me bugs. anyway. at this point idc how many busted shitty grows it takes, so far 3 lol, but imma nail this down. tbh it was the bug issue that was the main problem i was just way late to the party figuring out it was mites. i even checked for the mites like 2 crops ago but i didnt know they may not move. so i assumed they were not mites until one day my colas were cotton and it was not bud rot. i saw the mother fuckers everywhere. long story short i culled it all remodeling rn. sealed room being built. i will be using this thread when i start my next seeds and we will be recycling soil and re-ammending using teas and so on. y'all be seeing me around allot soon


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## projectinfo (Oct 7, 2018)

Anyone order the clacks mix w pumice from black swallow living soils in canada befor? Or have a better idea?

Im going to try organic no till , 8x8x7 space and put 5plants a month up to 20flowering at a time .

Im good for 35 with the acmpr
I builtmy own leds they work great im switching over from hydro.

How big should my potsize be to flower a 4 ft plant comfortably in no till


----------



## projectinfo (Oct 7, 2018)




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## Grow for fun only (Oct 8, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> View attachment 4212040


DIY LAMP?


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## projectinfo (Oct 8, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> DIY LAMP?


 What ?


----------



## Cold$moke (Oct 8, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> What ?


Lol sup bruh


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## projectinfo (Oct 9, 2018)

Could i start with fox farms ocean forest, and then start no till, use some top dress amendments, microbial teas.?

Or should i start by making a clakamas coots mix and top dress, teas right away


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## Grow for fun only (Oct 10, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> What ?


I meant 'Do it yourself ' of this lamp?


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## projectinfo (Oct 10, 2018)

Anyone know how to how about finding garden pumice in canada?

Do you just buy large bags of hydroton lavarock and sledgehammer them for the basalt and small/med pumice aeration for organic no till coots mix?


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## projectinfo (Oct 10, 2018)

Grow for fun only said:


> I meant 'Do it yourself ' of this lamp?



Im a coots mix

1/3 aeration
1/3 sphagnum peat moss
1/3 mushroomcompost/wormcastings

Top dress amendments im tracking down, so far gaia green looks good.

Bat guano
Bone meal
Bio char
Gypsum/oystershell/lime - ph buffer
Neem/karanja - ipm
Crustacean meal - calcium chittin
Yucca-wetting agent
Soap nuts oil emulsifier
Fulvic fulpower
Aloe flakes - tea
Coco nut powder - tea
Malted barley grains i will grind downfor enzymes
Bokashi for bacterial innoculant
Promix hp for mixing top dressings
Wormsred wrigglers/euros
Strawmulch
Live Cover cop
I have a mycorhizzal innoculant


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## projectinfo (Oct 10, 2018)

https://www.kisorganics.com/blogs/news/98112897-mixing-your-own-soil-using-the-kis-nutrient-pack


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## SCJedi (Oct 11, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> https://www.kisorganics.com/blogs/news/98112897-mixing-your-own-soil-using-the-kis-nutrient-pack


I used this nutrient pack and then added mostly Down To Earth dry nutrients and a homebrewed weekly AACT to it. For IPM I used essential oils, karanja oil, neem oil, aloe flakes, flying skull, etc

https://www.kisorganics.com/products/clackamas-coot-nutrient-kit

My base is: 
1/3 GS-1 Growstones (recycled beverage bottles) - http://growstone.com/the-goods/gs-1-hydroponic-substrate/
1/3 sphagnum peat moss (Sunshine bales from HD)
1/3 Bu's Blend Biodynamic Compost - https://malibucompost.com/


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## projectinfo (Oct 11, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> I used this nutrient pack and then added mostly Down To Earth dry nutrients and a homebrewed weekly AACT to it. For IPM I used essential oils, karanja oil, neem oil, aloe flakes, flying skull, etc
> 
> https://www.kisorganics.com/products/clackamas-coot-nutrient-kit
> 
> ...


You must be american. Its a different story trying to source this stuff in rural canada lol


----------



## Ecompost (Oct 13, 2018)

Mazer said:


> Dear Ecompost,
> 
> I do not know where I got this from but I think Bokashi has a low pH that can harm the bin. Is that not the case?
> Personally, I blend and freeze/thaw the worm's food prior to feeding them. I have a fair quantity of coffee/tea in their diet which seriously helps neutralizing most odors. Besides, burying the food under at least 2 inches of bedding also helps. I never had a smell unless the bin is unhealthy.
> ...


during fermentation yes i would argue you get low pH but you shouldnt be adding material not fermented or mid fermentation, and you ought to let the material run its full course so neutralizing pH before adding, We bokashi fermented comfrey leaves in a test and then used a sample without, the worms in the bokashi bin went nuts, the colony expanded faster and the material turn around was also quicker. They seemed to get in to the material easier due to its partial rendering by the LAB et al and conversion was therefore more efficient.
Stating the obvious but dont over feed the worm bins with any material 

peace and no smells to all fellow wormers


----------



## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

Bokashi does have a low ph below 4.0. But cannabis is an acid loving plant. The microbes in the soil naturally regulate ph.
I just topdress bokashi once every 2 weeks and use lab once every 10 days.. once the mycelium develops i then topdress xonpoat or castings. If bokashi and labs are used too often then the bacteria in them will out compete soil microbes and then you will have ph issues.

I never use lab in worm bins. When I add bokashi, I mix it with egg shells. The low ph of bokashi will invite pot worms. The egg shells raise ph. Plus the bokashi makes the egg shells break down faster and the worms go through the shells faster.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Oct 13, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Bokashi does have a low ph below 4.0. But cannabis is an acid loving plant. The microbes in the soil naturally regulate ph.
> I just topdress bokashi once every 2 weeks and use lab once every 10 days.. once the mycelium develops i then topdress xonpoat or castings. If bokashi and labs are used too often then the bacteria in them will out compete soil microbes and then you will have ph issues.
> 
> I never use lab in worm bins. When I add bokashi, I mix it with egg shells. The low ph of bokashi will invite pot worms. The egg shells raise ph. Plus the bokashi makes the egg shells break down faster and the worms go through the shells faster.


hyroot would u mind expanding on how u use bokashi as a top dress? I have thought about doing that instead of a mulch just letting a thick layer of mycelium grow across the top of the pot! how well does it work? any more info on this would be appreciated!!!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Oct 13, 2018)

another bokashi trick I like to do, I can't say for sure how much it helps or hurts or w.e.

but when I cook my soil I mix in a compost tea about half way into the cook, then I mix the soil very well and cover it with bokashi and let a thick layer grow across it after about 2 weeks I mix it up into my soil and let it cook more!


----------



## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> hyroot would u mind expanding on how u use bokashi as a top dress? I have thought about doing that instead of a mulch just letting a thick layer of mycelium grow across the top of the pot! how well does it work? any more info on this would be appreciated!!!



I just cast out a thin layer. Water it in or spray it. It needs to be wet to produce mycelium. I do cover with a good mulch layer. Being covered helps speed up the mycelium development. Then once the mycelium mat develops beneath the mulch layer I pull back the mulch layer and top dress compost or castings. You need 50/ 50, bokashi / carbon to balance it out.

It works great. It adds bacteria and fungi to soil. Provides food for worms. The grains the bokashi is made with has full spectrum of nutrients (elements and minerals). It speeds up breaking down any organic material. Basically a compost accelerator.

I make my own bokashi. I follow the recipe on the teraganix site. But I use lab instead of em1 and I also add a little himilayan salt, azomite(anti clumping), and photosynthesis plus. The ferment process bioremediates any metals in the azomite.


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> another bokashi trick I like to do, I can't say for sure how much it helps or hurts or w.e.
> 
> but when I cook my soil I mix in a compost tea about half way into the cook, then I mix the soil very well and cover it with bokashi and let a thick layer grow across it after about 2 weeks I mix it up into my soil and let it cook more!


 I do the same. It speeds up cooking time.


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## KasparGrower (Oct 14, 2018)

I have one question for you guys: considering growing in NOTILL soil with regular seeds,how do you guys behave when sexing your plants? I mean if I have a single room for both veg and bloom,using 15gal pots,how do I manage not to leave empty spots once I've selected my females? Thanks!


----------



## projectinfo (Oct 14, 2018)

KasparGrower said:


> I have one question for you guys: considering growing in NOTILL soil with regular seeds,how do you guys behave when sexing your plants? I mean if I have a single room for both veg and bloom,using 15gal pots,how do I manage not to leave empty spots once I've selected my females? Thanks!


I wonder the same . I seen pics of hyroot popping a whole pack of seeds in a soma style sip box.

Do you just pull the males and flower the rest in the box?

Id be worried theyd become root bound or nutrient deprived. Or thirsty as fuck.


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## hillbill (Oct 14, 2018)

Don’t think Hyroot worries.......just grows more herb!


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## KasparGrower (Oct 14, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> I wonder the same . I seen pics of hyroot popping a whole pack of seeds in a soma style sip box.
> 
> Do you just pull the males and flower the rest in the box?
> 
> Id be worried theyd become root bound or nutrient deprived. Or thirsty as fuck.


Yes I would throw the guys away since I'm not breeding. Just considering not to have any problems with hermies from feminized seeds. I was thinking of maybe pop 50% more then the final total number of planta in flowering in smaller pots 15l, but I don't think that repotting in a 15gal pot from a 15l pot would be Ideal for the soil life into the pot (I don't want to hurr any worms in the soil and so on)


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## hyroot (Oct 14, 2018)

I sex them in veg. After day 40 they show sex





My males go into separare 2x4 space to veg. I flower them out in another location. Keep cuts of the ones I like the most. More often than not i don't keep any males. I only keep roughly 1 male out of 20 strains.


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## KasparGrower (Oct 14, 2018)

Without flipping? How do you manage the space before knowing how many females you are gonna get? For example if I have a 4x4 for both veg and flowe and I wanted to have 4 females in flower,how do you behave while vegging? Do you use a smaller pot?


----------



## hyroot (Oct 14, 2018)

KasparGrower said:


> Without flipping? How do you manage the space before knowing how many females you are gonna get? For example if I have a 4x4 for both veg and flowe and I wanted to have 4 females in flower,how do you behave while vegging? Do you use a smaller pot?



I have a 12 x 8 space for flower. A 5x8 space for veg. I start them in party cups then transplant to 24 oz cups. Then transplant to 2 gallons. Then transplant to 3 gallons.

In the flower space, a 4x4 area goes to seeds. The rest goes to clones.

I flower in 20 gallon fabric pots and 30 gallon soma sips. I flower the whole space at the same time. So.when i transplant to final pots. They veg for 2 weeks in the flower space

When i grow seeds. I always pop 10 seeds with the expectation of getting 4 females out of that pack.

When I grow seeds in the same sip. I take cuts of the males and cull then.

This last round. That sip Pro is referring too. I tossed the males. I had 5 females of ninja fruit. 1 purple pheno and 4 green phenos. The green phenos hermied.

Ninja told me the green phenos are prone to hermie. He killed off the parents and started all over. With new seeds of the same parents. I do have a screen shot of it. I told hiim he needs to disclose that info.

Anyway those all got tossed except for the purple pheno. No way I'm keeping a male with hermie traits.


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## KasparGrower (Oct 15, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I have a 12 x 8 space for flower. A 5x8 space for veg. I start them in party cups then transplant to 24 oz cups. Then transplant to 2 gallons. Then transplant to 3 gallons.
> 
> In the flower space, a 4x4 area goes to seeds. The rest goes to clones.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer!!
One more question: if I wanted to have a SOG made with clones,can I use organic living soil in small pots? Like 15liters pots? 
If it is not possible,how do I have to take action?


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## hyroot (Oct 15, 2018)

KasparGrower said:


> Thanks for the answer!!
> One more question: if I wanted to have a SOG made with clones,can I use organic living soil in small pots? Like 15liters pots?
> If it is not possible,how do I have to take action?


That would be better in a 3x3 or 4x4 soil bed or 30 gal or larger totes.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 16, 2018)

hyroot said:


> That would be better in a 3x3 or 4x4 soil bed or 30 gal or larger totes.


since your pretty active on this forum and thread maybe I can ask you to shed light on this topic a little more, as it sounds like you may have an answer. I flower 16 plants per 1K HPS so each plant gets 1 sq foot in that 16 sq ft area. They each are in 3G pots, (which by the way a #3G nursery pot is actually pretty much 2G in nominal size) is this sufficient for TLO/ROLS soil to give really good results? my roots are never as developed as Soilless in the same size pot, so Im thinking they are far from rootbound so why is bigger an advantage. They take 3 days to dry out. I can post my recipe, but it has good homemade ingredients, and is what I consider very very rich and high quality in organic matter.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> since your pretty active on this forum and thread maybe I can ask you to shed light on this topic a little more, as it sounds like you may have an answer. I flower 16 plants per 1K HPS so each plant gets 1 sq foot in that 16 sq ft area. They each are in 3G pots, (which by the way a #3G nursery pot is actually pretty much 2G in nominal size) is this sufficient for TLO/ROLS soil to give really good results? my roots are never as developed as Soilless in the same size pot, so Im thinking they are far from rootbound so why is bigger an advantage. They take 3 days to dry out. I can post my recipe, but it has good homemade ingredients, and is what I consider very very rich and high quality in organic matter.



It can work with the tlo method. With tlo you layer amendments and use spikes.

With rols no till it won't work. You would be better off with a 4x4 fabric bed. You need larger root balls and more soil to get good yields with rols no till.


If you use mycorrhizae, malted barley, or seed sprout tea's, labs / em1, and quality worm castings. Your pots should get root bound pretty quick. My 2 gals would be root bound in less than 30 days of veg.


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## KasparGrower (Oct 16, 2018)

What about if someone decided to start a perpetual grow wit organic living soil? How do someone have to work with the two rooms in terms of transplanting,pot size and so on?


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## Strudelheim (Oct 16, 2018)

KasparGrower said:


> What about if someone decided to start a perpetual grow wit organic living soil? How do someone have to work with the two rooms in terms of transplanting,pot size and so on?


I mean you can still do organic living soil without No-till. You just want big pots. I think a 3G will be fine for a smaller plant that has a couple of tops that has 1 sq ft of bloom area, and produces 1-2 zips. Thats what I was askin hyroot just now. I have 2 rooms running perpetual and switched to organic soil over the last year.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2018)

KasparGrower said:


> What about if someone decided to start a perpetual grow wit organic living soil? How do someone have to work with the two rooms in terms of transplanting,pot size and so on?





hyroot said:


> I have a 12 x 8 space for flower. A 5x8 space for veg. I start them in party cups then transplant to 24 oz cups. Then transplant to 2 gallons. Then transplant to 3 gallons.
> 
> In the flower space, a 4x4 area goes to seeds. The rest goes to clones.
> 
> ...


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## Strudelheim (Oct 16, 2018)

hyroot said:


> It can work with the tlo method. With tlo you layer amendments and use spikes.
> 
> With rols no till it won't work. You would be better off with a 4x4 fabric bed. You need larger root balls and more soil to get good yields with rols no till.
> 
> ...



I have added mycos, sst's - check, em1 I havent gotten into trying to kiss for now, and I do my own EWC/COMPOST so check there - they don't get rootbound just yet, I do SOG and don't grow trees. maybe its time for me to make a diary on here to show.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> I have added mycos, sst's - check, em1 I havent gotten into trying to kiss for now, and I do my own EWC/COMPOST so check there - they don't get rootbound just yet, I do SOG and don't grow trees. maybe its time for me to make a diary on here to show.


For me sst always made the roots explode. I always used either corn seed or mung beans when sprouting...

Em1 / labs will make roots grow thicker. Mycos usually makes the roots explode too. I use xtreme gardening mycos or bioag vam. Apply to the roots each time I transplant. Don't use great white or anything with trichoderma added.

You can add trichoderma when needed in other ways. It's good to use against pathogens. Trichoderma is very carniverous. It will feed on pathogenic bacteria as well as mycorrhizae fungi. So great white is trichdorma dominant and more than likely will be void of mycorrhizae. But with balanced soil, trichoderma is good to have as long as it has a separate food source


https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC91202/#!po=4.88722


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## Strudelheim (Oct 16, 2018)

hyroot said:


> For me sst always made the roots explode. I always used either corn seed or mung beans when sprouting...
> 
> Em1 / labs will make roots grow thicker. Mycos usually makes the roots explode too. I use xtreme gardening mycos or bioag vam. Apply to the roots each time I transplant. Don't use great white or anything with trichoderma added.
> 
> ...


Thats the one I use xtreme gardening. I just put a sprinkle in when transplanting into cups. I am correct in understanding that when I reuse this soil, it will still be in there. My plan was to not order any more once Ive used this 2.2 pounds to innoculate close to 300 plants, all of that soil and roots re used. staying warm and moist 100% of the time. They even say these fungi are going to be in your soil already as is, if you have a high quality compost and ewc source


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## KasparGrower (Oct 16, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> I mean you can still do organic living soil without No-till. You just want big pots. I think a 3G will be fine for a smaller plant that has a couple of tops that has 1 sq ft of bloom area, and produces 1-2 zips. Thats what I was askin hyroot just now. I have 2 rooms running perpetual and switched to organic soil over the last year.


I think about no tilling because I don't want to waste gallons and gallons of soil each run. 
I'm just trying to figure out how to behave with organic living soil. My biggest concearn is transplanting...


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## Strudelheim (Oct 16, 2018)

KasparGrower said:


> I think about no tilling because I don't want to waste gallons and gallons of soil each run.
> I'm just trying to figure out how to behave with organic living soil. My biggest concearn is transplanting...


 read what hyroot requoted from what he had said before your question. You can re use your soil, even when not doing no till. your not throwing it out at the end of the run, you empty the pots into a large bin, add some re amendments, let it sit for a 1-4 weeks and start planting your vegging plants in it.


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## KasparGrower (Oct 16, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> read what hyroot requoted from what he had said before your question. You can re use your soil, even when not doing no till. your not throwing it out at the end of the run, you empty the pots into a large bin, add some re amendments, let it sit for a 1-4 weeks and start planting your vegging plants in it.


I got it... but doing so you can't run a perpetual grow right? Or if you do you gotta have double the soil to cycle.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Thats the one I use xtreme gardening. I just put a sprinkle in when transplanting into cups. I am correct in understanding that when I reuse this soil, it will still be in there. My plan was to not order any more once Ive used this 2.2 pounds to innoculate close to 300 plants, all of that soil and roots re used. staying warm and moist 100% of the time. They even say these fungi are going to be in your soil already as is, if you have a high quality compost and ewc source


Mycos should still be present in the soil. After harvest they sporalate into the soil waiting for the next roots as long as the soil doesnt dry out. The mycos die off after a year.


I keep aged recycled soil in rubbermaid totes that can be up to 3 years old. I use that soil for veg plants. I reapply mycos each time I transplant with the old soil.

When i build new sips or get new fabric pots. The soil from the pots gets dumped into totes. Then I use the older soil thats been cooking forever and has fresh castings for flower (I have worms in all my soil). So for this situation mycos needs to be applied too


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2018)

KasparGrower said:


> I got it... but doing so you can't run a perpetual grow right? Or if you do you gotta have double the soil to cycle.



Its always good.to have extra soil on hand. I make a new batch of.soil of every few years and mix it with old. soil. 

You don't need to double your soil if you don't have the space. If your veg space and flower space are the same size. I would veg in final pots form the beginning and veg and flower in both rooms


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## KasparGrower (Oct 16, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Its always good.to have extra soil on hand. I make a new batch of.soil of every few years and mix it with old. soil.
> 
> You don't need to double your soil if you don't have the space. If your veg space and flower space are the same size. I would veg in final pots form the beginning and veg and flower in both rooms


I see what you are saying but if I veg and flower in both rooms,I throw away the advantage of a perpetual grow. Especially if I run regs,starting with a final pot size would compromise selecting females since there would not be anough space for selection.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 16, 2018)

starting in a 3G pot from a cutting takes up a sq ft for such a small plant. small plants and small pots, means smaller footprint and less light is needed. And if one is experimenting with soil mixes and learning, using massive pots suck, when it doesn't work out. smaller plants and pots allow me to veg 50+ plants under a 630 cmh with them all at different stages to keep feeding the perpetual bloom room. I take the best looking ones that are in 1g and put them into a 3g, veg for 1-2 weeks directly under the light so they get the most intense area. Then into the bloom room, and then same with the next.


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## projectinfo (Oct 17, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> starting in a 3G pot from a cutting takes up a sq ft for such a small plant. small plants and small pots, means smaller footprint and less light is needed. And if one is experimenting with soil mixes and learning, using massive pots suck, when it doesn't work out. smaller plants and pots allow me to veg 50+ plants under a 630 cmh with them all at different stages to keep feeding the perpetual bloom room. I take the best looking ones that are in 1g and put them into a 3g, veg for 1-2 weeks directly under the light so they get the most intense area. Then into the bloom room, and then same with the next.


What are you feeding them in veg


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## Strudelheim (Oct 17, 2018)

I use my soil mix, and just water only with some silica. SST's every once in awhile. I found compost teas pushed the mix over the edge since it was so rich already so I decided to just do plain water for the last few weeks. Heres some pics and my mix, any suggestions are appreciated!

Blueberry Cheesecake Day 29

 
white pot worms combining into a mass and devouring injured worm

Most recent mix recipe


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## Moldy (Oct 17, 2018)

Subbed! Been growing with hot soil for a couple of years and love it but need to up my game. Great thread!


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## Chronikool (Oct 17, 2018)

Alien Rift in ROLS at Harvest


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## lokie (Oct 20, 2018)

My first fully organic harvest was a success. There are a few tweeks I will make
but it's all good.

My question:

Having made tinctures and cannabutter, I've collected several bags of strained plant material.

I've dabbled with these dreggs and think i may just toss them.
Can food grade Vegetable Glycerin, Organic Coconut Oil and cannabis dreggs be tossed into the
compost?

Thanks


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## Strudelheim (Oct 20, 2018)

lokie said:


> My first fully organic harvest was a success. There are a few tweeks I will make
> but it's all good.
> 
> My question:
> ...


Everything can go in compost. I even throw meat in it. dead mice, even live mice, they live in there eat scraps and poop, help decompose and provide guano, have babies and overwinter. then I harvest the compost, they run out into the yard, then back into the garage where they go into mouse traps, then I throw the carcass into the compost. Ahh the circle of life.


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## Grow for fun only (Oct 21, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> Alien Rift in ROLS at Harvest
> 
> View attachment 4217373


that's really a beauty


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## hillbill (Oct 22, 2018)

MARS EMPLOYEE OF THE MONTH!!!


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## TheBeardedBudzman (Oct 22, 2018)

Oh hey guys. Just thought I’d drop on into organics to say the admins on this site are a bunch of American-hating, racist cowards that feed info to the feds and like it up the ass


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## Strudelheim (Oct 22, 2018)

k thanks


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## hyroot (Oct 22, 2018)

Ogkb bx 1


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## TL4 (Oct 24, 2018)

Has anyone ever been overrun with pill bugs? If so what did you do to get them in Check. There is hundreds of them. I put containers sunk into the soil with beer in them, which soon filled up with the bugs. Anything I plant gets chewed off at the base. I have a 4x9 raised bed no till organic. Any ideas?


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## projectinfo (Oct 24, 2018)

TL4 said:


> Has anyone ever been overrun with pill bugs? If so what did you do to get them in Check. There is hundreds of them. I put containers sunk into the soil with beer in them, which soon filled up with the bugs. Anything I plant gets chewed off at the base. I have a 4x9 raised bed no till organic. Any ideas?


https://www.naturalinsectcontrol.com/cat.php?cat=5

Email those guys theyll tell you a bunch of stuff . 

Well heres what they sent me . 

2018 Crop Recommendation

MedicalMarihuana


Overview

This crop is for human consumption. Every effort should be made to grow the crop without the use of chemical insecticides, fungicides or herbicides. When plants are grown in protected environments, they can be grown year ‘round, at a faster rate and with less physical damage. The protected environment however, also tends to make it easier for the pests to become established and to get out of control due to the exclusion of natural enemies from the surrounding environment.



Prior to planting

The greenhouse or growth chamber must be adequately cleaned of old plant material, obvious fungal residue and non-essential apparatus. A thorough cleaning with a detergent is highly recommended.


The climate must be appropriate for growing conditions. Stressed plants are much more susceptible to fungal pathogens and insect pests. Care must be taken to ensure that air circulation is efficient but not too intense, as a strong wind passing through the plant causes displacement of the “humidity umbrella” that the plant normally forms by transpiration. If the plant surface becomes desiccated, pests such as the two-spotted spider mite will thrive.


Before placing the crop, put a few bush beans in pots throughout the greenhouse. The beans will attract any pests that were missed by the clean-up, allowing you to redo the clean-up or use a more thorough technique.


Getting Started

When the pots are first watered, a soil mite such as Stratiolaelaps scimitus (Stratos) should be applied to the soil surface at a rate of 10 mites per square foot. They can be broadcast over the spaced out pots or trays. These soil mites will control fungus gnat larvae in the root zone, leading to a faster growth rate and healthier plants. Both mites also feed on pupating thrip larvae, helping thrip management by breaking the reproductive cycle.


Yellow sticky traps should be applied at least 1 trap for every 500 square feet. Care must be taken to ensure that the height of the traps does not exceed the height of the plants. Traps higher than the plants will not trap a representative sample of thrips.


Spider Mites

Spider mites are the most common and serious pest. This is due to the environment, plant stress and the plant itself. In general, spider mites hate high humidity. We actually manage our spider mite culture on bean plants just by misting them. If you are not battling botrytis or similar molds, try misting the affected areas on a regular schedule for a few days.


Prevention of spider mites is possible by applying Amblyseius fallacis at a rate of 2 mites per square foot. This generalist mite predator evenly establishes itself throughout the crop, preventing spider mite establishment under normal conditions. Hot spot outbreaks should be treated with Phytoseiulus persimilis at a rate of 1 mite per 100 spider mites for control within 1 week. Fallacis and persimilis are compatible and do not interfere with each other. Fallacis does not do well on webbing while persimilis specializes on it.


Stethorus punctillum is a tiny black beetle that thrives in low humidity situations. If you are unable to manage the climate effectively and the conditions for spider mite are extreme, Stethorus could save the crop. They should be applied at a rate of 0.1 per square foot, in extreme cases, or 0.01 per foot in moderate cases. These beetles find spider mites by smell and quickly move to new infestations, leaving behind their eggs and larvae to finish the job.


Another strategy to try is using bush bean plants amongst the crop. In some crops, such as tomato, this is a very effective strategy for pulling spider mites off the crop. Bean plants are also easy to monitor, as they show spider mite damage within hours. If the beans are moderately successful, apply persimilis to them to create a “banking” system, generating more persimilis that will move into the crop. If the beans are highly successful, carefully remove them and the spider mites and plant some more beans. 



Aphids

Almost every plant gets aphids if the conditions are right. Over fertilizing leading to rapid, soft growth is what aphids look for. In general, very few aphids cause permanent damage, but their excrement, honeydew, can lead to sooty mold. If you have aphids, you must eliminate any ants first. Ants “farm” aphids, feeding on the honeydew. They will protect the aphids from predation and will actively move aphids around to “greener pastures” within your crop.


Once the ants are gone, aphids can easily be controlled by using Aphidoletes aphidimyza at a rate of 0.01 per square foot, weekly, until the aphids are eliminated. If you have a history of aphids, continue at this rate weekly for the duration of the crop.



Thrips

Thrips cause damage that is similar to spider mites. There is a subtle difference however. Thrips tend to scrape the leaf surface while spider mites pierce the leaf tissue and extract the chlorophyll. Thrips are tiny pests, capable of flying, although quite poor flyers. They are attracted to yellow and blue sticky traps, which when used in sufficient quantity can be effective management tools. Adding a cotton ball so you can drip vanilla or almond extracts can increase the trapping by a factor of 10.


Biological controls are limited. The predatory mite Amblyseius cucumeris is the best choice. These mites attack the first and second instar larvae. If enough cucumeris are present they are extremely effective, as they can sense the thrip emerging from the leaf, and wait for the thrip to stick its head out, biting it off. The presence of Stratos in the soil will ensure that the thrips cannot effectively cycle within your facility


Whitefly

Whitefly is not a common pest, but, pests tend to adapt, so we should discuss them briefly. Whitefly are a close relative to the aphid. Both of them suck. Both can quickly create excessive honeydew that will lead to sooty mold. If any whitefly is seen on the yellow sticky cards, begin applying the parasitic wasp Encarsia formosa at a rate of 0.02 per square foot, weekly.


Summary

This is a difficult crop as the plants have not been bred for protected climates. As a result, the plants are usually in some state of stress. Do what you can to minimize the stress by aggressively humidification and careful watering and nutrient balance.


The application of the soil mites is a critical first step, ensuring healthy root development by controlling fungus gnats and thrip management, by predating on the pupating thrips.


Many thanks to Applied Bionomics for these receommendations.

Spider mite is the traditional pest and can be prevented with the predatory mite fallacis. Outbreaks are best treated with persimilis and severe infestations due to poor climate are best dealt with by applying the beetle, Stethorus. The use of bush beans as monitoring/trapping plants should be investigated in this crop. If the crop ends with a spider mite problem, apply more Stratos to the floor area, focusing on cracks and any other breaks in the floor where the spider mites overwinter. The Stratos will feed on the dormant spider mites, reducing their return numbers significantly.


There is little you can do to prevent thrips. If they become a pest, apply cucumeris to the plants and apply vanilla or almond to the sticky traps by using cotton balls. 


Thank you to Applied Bionomics for these recommendations


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## Greenthumbs256 (Oct 25, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> https://www.naturalinsectcontrol.com/cat.php?cat=5
> 
> Email those guys theyll tell you a bunch of stuff .
> 
> ...


maybe your expertise could help me I'd really appreciate it! I'm literally almost in tears I'm so mad I'm tempted to kill and burn everything! 

I have 2 spotted spider mites for about a year! I've used azamax, neem, diatomaceous earth, mighty wash, and recently spent 100 bucks on predatory mites! I found a damaged lead earlier and under further inspection found them swarming! can't find any predatory mites but tons of 2 spotted ones, but also pictured below I think there is tons of Egg or both preds, and 2 spot? am I correct? are they actually working and just need more time? I'm very lost and torn right now your help would be extremely appreciated!!!!!!


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## projectinfo (Oct 25, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> maybe your expertise could help me I'd really appreciate it! I'm literally almost in tears I'm so mad I'm tempted to kill and burn everything!
> 
> I have 2 spotted spider mites for about a year! I've used azamax, neem, diatomaceous earth, mighty wash, and recently spent 100 bucks on predatory mites! I found a damaged lead earlier and under further inspection found them swarming! can't find any predatory mites but tons of 2 spotted ones, but also pictured below I think there is tons of Egg or both preds, and 2 spot? am I correct? are they actually working and just need more time? I'm very lost and torn right now your help would be extremely appreciated!!!!!!
> View attachment 4221228 View attachment 4221229


Have to tried spraying them off with water to control population?

Remove badly affected leaves. 

Plant bush beans around the room as a monitor/sacrifice. They prefer the bean plants and you can throw em away .

Dont have your fans pointing right at your plants. Once you dry them out, mites move in easily. 

They need a humidity pocket around them, mites hate humidity.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Oct 25, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Have to tried spraying them off with water to control population?
> 
> Remove badly affected leaves.
> 
> ...


OK yes I sprayed them off, yes always pulling every leaf with any spots, I'm going to have to look into the bean thing, what kinda beans do you recommend!

and just recently I've stared spraying plain water in flower to raise the humidity, as for the fan I thought the heavy wind was good for controlling the mites? should I have my fan off during lights out? and spray at lights out? that would create a humid and very moist environment, I expect never had a mold issue but I'm sure I can't go too crazy on that!

also from the pics can u tell the difference between predatory eggs and the 2 spotted mite eggs? I'm hoping tat the preds are still around!


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## projectinfo (Oct 25, 2018)

Fan off during lights out 

Point fans at the wall or lights. Not the plant.

You want air circulation.

Blasting with fans is what spidermites want . Once you dry out the leaf for them, its easy for them to move in. 

Any kind of bush beans. 
Grow a hand full because your likely to lose the first few fast if youve got a bad infestation


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## projectinfo (Oct 25, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> OK yes I sprayed them off, yes always pulling every leaf with any spots, I'm going to have to look into the bean thing, what kinda beans do you recommend!
> 
> and just recently I've stared spraying plain water in flower to raise the humidity, as for the fan I thought the heavy wind was good for controlling the mites? should I have my fan off during lights out? and spray at lights out? that would create a humid and very moist environment, I expect never had a mold issue but I'm sure I can't go too crazy on that!
> 
> also from the pics can u tell the difference between predatory eggs and the 2 spotted mite eggs? I'm hoping tat the preds are still around!


I Cant tell the difference, maybe somone can.

Spray an hour befor lights come on. 

You dont want mold either.... Slow changes buddy 

Go from dry plant with lots of dead meterial to a swamp type conditions your going see mold form on anything dead. 

Get a humidifoer or dehumidifier Whatever you need in your part of the world to get to 55 - 60 humidity and youll be fine.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Oct 25, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> I Cant tell the difference, maybe somone can.
> 
> Spray an hour befor lights come on.
> 
> ...


thanks for the info! I will give it all a try! thank you!


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## Strudelheim (Oct 25, 2018)

isolate the room and use hot shot no pest strips? only on veg plants to preserve stock, then kill all flowering plants. Im just thinking if youve been battling it for a year and putting in so much time into dealing with it. scrap some plants, quarantine a couple mom clones, and in 1-2 months you can start flowering again and have a fresh start.


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## SCJedi (Nov 2, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> maybe your expertise could help me I'd really appreciate it! I'm literally almost in tears I'm so mad I'm tempted to kill and burn everything!
> 
> I have 2 spotted spider mites for about a year! I've used azamax, neem, diatomaceous earth, mighty wash, and recently spent 100 bucks on predatory mites! I found a damaged lead earlier and under further inspection found them swarming! can't find any predatory mites but tons of 2 spotted ones, but also pictured below I think there is tons of Egg or both preds, and 2 spot? am I correct? are they actually working and just need more time? I'm very lost and torn right now your help would be extremely appreciated!!!!!!
> View attachment 4221228 View attachment 4221229


I have been there and done that. I now do what you are fearing you need to do. I take it all down, spray Avid and Forbid all over the space and around it, bleach, 35% H202, and toss containers, stakes, etc. Reintroduce plants and keep pets and carpet far away.

Predatory mites are good for prevention, not eradication of an infestation. Same with soft solutions like Flying Skull. (in my opinion)

DE is OK for crawlers but 2-spotted mites live on the undersides of leaves where it is hard to dust. It also won't do anything for eggs. Azamax is concentrated azadirachtin which is just the active ingredient of neem. 

I have gone as far as hang a Tyvek suit at the entrance and suit up when I enter my rooms. I also don't every accept clones from anyone without a dip and a quarantine. I have mites in my backyard because it is hot and dry here. It is only a matter of time before they make it to the indoor spot. I spray the floor of the garage around the outside of my space as well as the concrete patio in between it and the back yard area.

Good luck!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 2, 2018)

so guys I have a question!

some of you know I been playing around with sip pots! well I filled one about 2 weeks ago and grew in the top layer of mycelium, well I went to check it today and pulled off the black trash bag, to find thousands of tiny whitish mites all over the place, it seems my mycelium kinda died off and all over the top of soil and inside of the trash bag lid are thousands of tiny mites!!! I've had a spider mite issue is the past but these don't look like the two spotted spider mites? 

is it possible these are good soil mites that break down organic mats, and I shouldnt be worried?


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## hyroot (Nov 2, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> so guys I have a question!
> 
> some of you know I been playing around with sip pots! well I filled one about 2 weeks ago and grew in the top layer of mycelium, well I went to check it today and pulled off the black trash bag, to find thousands of tiny whitish mites all over the place, it seems my mycelium kinda died off and all over the top of soil and inside of the trash bag lid are thousands of tiny mites!!! I've had a spider mite issue is the past but these don't look like the two spotted spider mites?
> 
> is it possible these are good soil mites that break down organic mats, and I shouldnt be worried?


If they're fast moving they're young hypoaspis predatory mites. They probably fed on all the mycelium. They love it.

I once fermented a batch of bokashi for too long and when i opened the bin. All the mycelium and half the grains were gone. There was a ton of hypoaspis mites and insect frass in there. I ended up dumping the whole thing. I just didn't want to deal with it.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 2, 2018)

SCJedi said:


> Predatory mites are good for prevention, not eradication of an infestation (in my opinion)


Depends on the type of predatory mites and pests. Andersoni mites within 2 weeks will wipe out a bad infestation of white flies, 2 spotted spider mites, red spider mites, russet mites, and broad mites.

Swirskii mites and hypoaspis mites will wipe out thrips, aphids, gnats and 2 spotted spider mites.

Californicus mites won't do a damn thing against pests. Ladybugs will barely do anything against any pest.

You just need the right predator insect whose main diet consists of the pests you are dealing with.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 3, 2018)

hyroot said:


> If they're fast moving they're young hyopaspis predatory mites. They probably fed on all the mycelium. They love it.
> 
> I once fermented a batch of bokashi for too long and when i opened the bin. All the mycelium and half the grains were gone. There was a ton of hypoaspis mites and insect frass in there. I ended up dumping the whole thing. I juat didn't want to deal with it.


you really know your shit! thanks man I appreciate it! it seems to me that's what they are, so basically I can just let them be?


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## hyroot (Nov 3, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> you really know your shit! thanks man I appreciate it! it seems to me that's what they are, so basically I can just let them be?


They will die off once their food source is gone or completely broken down or when their time is up. Their life cycle is only a few weeks. They also feed on organic matter like compost that hasn't broken down yet and fungus.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 4, 2018)

hey guys I started a journal for my new sip pot and I'm also running a gg#4 cut, you guys should come see, maybe yall can help me out with some advise or some ideas maybe!

https://www.rollitup.org/t/greens-gorilla-glue-4.979073/#post-14565856


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 4, 2018)

hey guys can anyone tell me what would happen if I put an air stone into a res with em1?

I'm trying to find out if there is any benefits to doing this in my sip pot!


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## DonBrennon (Nov 5, 2018)

Search facultative anearobes, hopefully this will help


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 5, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> hey guys can anyone tell me what would happen if I put an air stone into a res with em1?
> 
> I'm trying to find out if there is any benefits to doing this in my sip pot!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 5, 2018)

so basically that says both is fine, if I'm reading that right? but they multiply when anerobic


----------



## Avant_Gardener (Nov 6, 2018)

What is a good initial wetting agent for sphagnum peat moss?


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 6, 2018)

Avant_Gardener said:


> What is a good initial wetting agent for sphagnum peat moss?


Yucca, aloe


----------



## hillbill (Nov 7, 2018)

Weighted 5 gallon pail on top of half full bucket of peat which is then filled to 4” of the top. Couple days and wet peat! Also works with 20 or 30 gallon totes not quite as full.


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## Chronikool (Nov 12, 2018)

Red Clover flower in the Veg room


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## Trippinout (Nov 12, 2018)

So I’m sure this has been asked but I really don’t feel like going through 400+ pages to find it.
I’ve used subs super soil when I use to do indoor I’m giving no till a shot I am using coots mix with pumice and water with aloe added some cover crop my plants are still young on second node from seed and the cover crop has started to sprout. 
It’s a six seed mix of Buckwheat, Barley, Alfalfa, Clover, Lentil & Fenugreek. 
Basically do I let that grow up then die and let it decompose or do I cover it with barley straw before that to speed it?
It does seem to dry up quick wish I did a light cover of the straw to just keep it moist?
Also where do I source coconut powder 
Grocery store or is that poor quality?
Thanks for the help


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 12, 2018)

Trippinout said:


> So I’m sure this has been asked but I really don’t feel like going through 400+ pages to find it.
> I’ve used subs super soil when I use to do indoor I’m giving no till a shot I am using coots mix with pumice and water with aloe added some cover crop my plants are still young on second node from seed and the cover crop has started to sprout.
> It’s a six seed mix of Buckwheat, Barley, Alfalfa, Clover, Lentil & Fenugreek.
> Basically do I let that grow up then die and let it decompose or do I cover it with barley straw before that to speed it?
> ...


honestly if your going to short cut the whole organics thing this may not be for you! just saying there is a lot to know and understand, it's not a hydro recipie, or like subs, and just water only! there is many methods like that, but no till is a much wilder beast to tame! I suggest you take the time and try to read some of this thread, if not most!

with that being said, to answer your question you can do either! you can let it die then cover it or you can cover it a Lil prematurely! won't hurt either way!

coconut powder can be bought from amazon or from build a soil. com


----------



## Trippinout (Nov 12, 2018)

Oh I’m slowly chipping away at it but everyone does do it a little different
I plan on starting slow get a worm bin going get the first crop off and keep building up the soil of after the first couple runs I’m not into it I will probably just amend the soil and add it to my vegetable garden
Thank you for the quick reply


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 13, 2018)

Trippinout said:


> Oh I’m slowly chipping away at it but everyone does do it a little different
> I plan on starting slow get a worm bin going get the first crop off and keep building up the soil of after the first couple runs I’m not into it I will probably just amend the soil and add it to my vegetable garden
> Thank you for the quick reply


 to search the thread,
top right click the magnifyglass search button
click this thread only.
be very basic with your search terms. one, maybe two words max
you can also pick a date or person as well.

goodluck

read the thread


----------



## Ecompost (Nov 18, 2018)

Trippinout said:


> So I’m sure this has been asked but I really don’t feel like going through 400+ pages to find it.
> I’ve used subs super soil when I use to do indoor I’m giving no till a shot I am using coots mix with pumice and water with aloe added some cover crop my plants are still young on second node from seed and the cover crop has started to sprout.
> It’s a six seed mix of Buckwheat, Barley, Alfalfa, Clover, Lentil & Fenugreek.
> Basically do I let that grow up then die and let it decompose or do I cover it with barley straw before that to speed it?
> ...


what are you trying to do grow green manure or cannabis? why does a multi input soil amendment mix require you to add a green manure?
You dont need to read the thread, you need to decide what it is you are trying to achieve? The soil green manure cover mix is for building soil fertiulity, does subs mix need help?
Are you trying to maintain moisture, suppress weeds? what are you doing? mulching or building fertility?
Are you growing companion plants or cover crops?


----------



## Trippinout (Nov 18, 2018)

Ecompost said:


> what are you trying to do grow green manure or cannabis? why does a multi input soil amendment mix require you to add a green manure?
> You dont need to read the thread, you need to decide what it is you are trying to achieve? The soil green manure cover mix is for building soil fertiulity, does subs mix need help?
> Are you trying to maintain moisture, suppress weeds? what are you doing? mulching or building fertility?
> Are you growing companion plants or cover crops?


This is coots mix I use to run subs super soil
Right now it’s a cover crop will be mulched over before I flower still need to source some worms and get some coconut powder. I’ve used yucca and aloe so far and also some silica they seem to doing fine. I was a little confused with the cover crop at first thought you ran them at the same time but now I’ve decided to mulch over it.
But anything to hold the moisture in would be nice as these pots due tend to dry out quick on top.
I’m trying to run a no till right now I’m just looking for a Phenos I like from this run to clone so I’m not overly concerned with how the plants turn out. I’d rather build the soil up for next runs. I wanted to run soil and was tired of throwing it all out so I thought no till was the answer.
I’d like to get to a mostly only water don’t mind adding silica and stuff like that.
I ordered a worm farm to start vermicomposting just have to source some red wigglers but with it being winter in Canada most places are shipping them.
This all started with me reading true living organics and was going to try that with the spikes and everything but then I found no till and thought it sounded better


----------



## Site (Nov 19, 2018)

Guys just a quick question...do you guys think this is a wise idea...Ive mixed up new 'super soil' every grow and so far it has been spot on, shown no deficiencies etc....but im fed up the soil costs as most are...the ammendments aren't too bad as they are covered by the feed but also I have been told certain items like the volcanic rock dust take a while to break down and probably aren't that available for a fair few months (not 100% on this though!)...anyway heres my ingredients to my soil...

200litres biobizz allmix
50litres Coco
40 litres worm castings
20litres perlite
1kg bone meal (3.5-17-0)
450g Bat Guano (1-10-1)
450g Hoof and Horn (13-0-0)
1kg Seaweed/Kelp Meal
3 Cups volcanic rock dust
5tbs Epsom salts
6 cups gypsum
6 cups oyster shell
3 tbs humic acid

that's what goes into my base and I have never had any issues, ive currently got a grow about to finish in a few weeks but its cold here in the uk...getting down to the 0°C figure soon so I wont be able to 'cook' a fresh batch outside...so what my plan is will be to reuse the 'super soil' ive grown in and use a 1/3 of all the ingredients ive put into my base... so my plan is to reuse the batch but add the following...

40litres worm castings
300g bone meal
150g bat guano
150g hood and horn
350g seaweed/kelp meal
1 cup volcanic rock dust
2tbs Epsom salts
2 cups gypsum
2 cups oyster shell
1 tbs humic acid

I haven't done any tests on my soil so I don't know what has or has not been used up during the grow but do you think I will encounter any issues with there being an imbalance of certain nutrients...like the cal/mag ratios etc?

Sorry not all the ingredients are 'organic' as such!


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## projectinfo (Nov 19, 2018)

Site said:


> Guys just a quick question...do you guys think this is a wise idea...Ive mixed up new 'super soil' every grow and so far it has been spot on, shown no deficiencies etc....but im fed up the soil costs as most are...the ammendments aren't too bad as they are covered by the feed but also I have been told certain items like the volcanic rock dust take a while to break down and probably aren't that available for a fair few months (not 100% on this though!)...anyway heres my ingredients to my soil...
> 
> 200litres biobizz allmix
> 50litres Coco
> ...


 Ever consider paying for soil analysis ? 
, at least youll know if your getting buildups to reduce one thing or another.

Just a guess pal


----------



## Site (Nov 19, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Ever consider paying for soil analysis ?
> , at least youll know if your getting buildups to reduce one thing or another.
> 
> Just a guess pal


yea this is half my issue...I haven't found anywhere worth using in the UK yet...I need to do some proper searching around but haven't really yet...I was tempted to just start in the soil and bottle feed if required but I was hoping to do it this way as its much easier with plain water feeding...


----------



## KasparGrower (Nov 19, 2018)

Site said:


> yea this is half my issue...I haven't found anywhere worth using in the UK yet...I need to do some proper searching around but haven't really yet...I was tempted to just start in the soil and bottle feed if required but I was hoping to do it this way as its much easier with plain water feeding...


Hey bro I'm not from the UK but I know a supplier that sells and makes living soil/livung soil amendments. I hit you up with a link on private.


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## projectinfo (Nov 27, 2018)

https://www.rollitup.org/t/infos-probiotic-no-till-sips-2018.980455/#post-14607546

just started a no till journal if anyones bored


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## SouthShoreSeeds (Nov 27, 2018)

Hso og kush x og grape krypt in rols like always. 18 days from flip frosting up early. Stinking like rotting fruit.


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## TheSpaceFarm (Nov 29, 2018)

Im looking for a fast acting organic source of manganese. Anyone got any ideas? I know kelp meal has a good amount but its also high in magnesium which i think is the source of my manganese deficiency. Will adding more kelp only perpetuate the problem? I recently watered in some epsom salt and now ive got this one top leaf looking like this so i believe its manganese def.


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 29, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Im looking for a fast acting organic source of manganese. Anyone got any ideas? I know kelp meal has a good amount but its also high in magnesium which i think is the source of my manganese deficiency. Will adding more kelp only perpetuate the problem? I recently watered in some epsom salt and now ive got this one top leaf looking like this so i believe its manganese def.


 Did you spill something on the leaf?


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## TheSpaceFarm (Nov 29, 2018)

Lol my old lady asked the same question. I haven't spilled anything on them. This is what i found that seems to fit my situation.


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## projectinfo (Nov 29, 2018)

Its a slippery slope spot treating problems. 

Maybe you should look over what you have done to get to this point and what you can do next time. 

Maybe a soil test, do you keep a log of what goes into each plant ?


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Nov 29, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Its a slippery slope spot treating problems.
> 
> Maybe you should look over what you have done to get to this point and what you can do next time.
> 
> Maybe a soil test, do you keep a log of what goes into each plant ?


Yea i keep a log of everything i do. And its always the same (with minor tweaks for different strains) with great results. This is my first run with this strain. The only thing these got different from the others was a little epsom salt because og's are mag hungry.


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## TheSpaceFarm (Nov 29, 2018)

1/3 strength? Im not using nutes yo Im in rols. Im not trying to flush away all the soil biology and shit. Drown my worms and what not lol.


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 29, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> 1/3 strength? Im not using nutes yo Im in rols. Im not trying to flush away all the soil biology and shit. Drown my worms and what not lol.


 Oops wrong thread man


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Nov 29, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Oops wrong thread man


Lol gotcha. I was like damn dudes trolling me haha


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 29, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Lol gotcha. I was like damn dudes trolling me haha


Lol dont mind me


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## ShLUbY (Nov 29, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Im looking for a fast acting organic source of manganese. Anyone got any ideas? I know kelp meal has a good amount but its also high in magnesium which i think is the source of my manganese deficiency. Will adding more kelp only perpetuate the problem? I recently watered in some epsom salt and now ive got this one top leaf looking like this so i believe its manganese def.


apparently brown rice is rich in manganese. you could topdress some brown rice and your soil fungi will consume it rapidly and that could help out your problem! Symbiotic fungi like to share!


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## TheSpaceFarm (Nov 29, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> apparently brown rice is rich in manganese. you could topdress some brown rice and your soil fungi will consume it rapidly and that could help out your problem! Symbiotic fungi like to share!


Dope thanks man ill give it a try. I couldnt find much online it all says use chem ferts, im like nah im good lol. Good to know.


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## ShLUbY (Nov 29, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Dope thanks man ill give it a try. I couldnt find much online it all says use chem ferts, im like nah im good lol. Good to know.


also if you run a worm bin or make compost, these other foods are rich in manganese: pineapple, spinach, oats, pumpkin seeds and wheat bran. You could start adding those to your composting regiment.


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## TheSpaceFarm (Nov 29, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> also if you run a worm bin or make compost, these other foods are rich in manganese: pineapple, spinach, oats, pumpkin seeds and wheat bran. You could start adding those to your composting regiment.


Nice thats whats up my worms love spinach lol I'll hook em up with some of the others too


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## MyFloridaGreen360 (Dec 1, 2018)

I have change to controlled coconut since and powdered aloe 200x


----------



## projectinfo (Dec 1, 2018)

MyFloridaGreen360 said:


> I have change to controlled coconut since and powdered aloe 200x


 Controlled coconut ?


----------



## Avant_Gardener (Dec 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Bokashi does have a low ph below 4.0. But cannabis is an acid loving plant. The microbes in the soil naturally regulate ph.
> I just topdress bokashi once every 2 weeks and use lab once every 10 days.. once the mycelium develops i then topdress xonpoat or castings. If bokashi and labs are used too often then the bacteria in them will out compete soil microbes and then you will have ph issues.
> 
> I never use lab in worm bins. When I add bokashi, I mix it with egg shells. The low ph of bokashi will invite pot worms. The egg shells raise ph. Plus the bokashi makes the egg shells break down faster and the worms go through the shells faster.


Labs every 10 days is for your containers but not your SIPS?


----------



## Ecompost (Dec 2, 2018)

Trippinout said:


> This is coots mix I use to run subs super soil
> Right now it’s a cover crop will be mulched over before I flower still need to source some worms and get some coconut powder. I’ve used yucca and aloe so far and also some silica they seem to doing fine. I was a little confused with the cover crop at first thought you ran them at the same time but now I’ve decided to mulch over it.
> But anything to hold the moisture in would be nice as these pots due tend to dry out quick on top.
> I’m trying to run a no till right now I’m just looking for a Phenos I like from this run to clone so I’m not overly concerned with how the plants turn out. I’d rather build the soil up for next runs. I wanted to run soil and was tired of throwing it all out so I thought no till was the answer.
> ...


there is very little evidence (eg none) to support the transfer of Nitrogen from say a living Legume to another living plant in proximity, so what you are doing is good, you grow a soil fertility booster, eg you grow a plant(s) that can handle low Nutrient density, terminate, then plant your target crop


----------



## CanadianDank (Dec 2, 2018)

What's up all you ROLS heads?

Been reading a hell of a lot over the last month on living soil. From the Rev, to here and eyecmag and I've decided to make the leap.

I've always wanted to go true organics, way back when I wanted to use super soil!

Anyways this is my base mix 

1/3 EWC
1/3 Potting Soil
1/3 Perlite

To each C.F. of the base I will add

0.5 cup crustacean/crab meal - (still need to source this!)
0.5 cup neem/karanja meal - (still looking for this as well)
0.5 cup alfalfa meal
0.5 cup kelp meal
0.5 cup dolomite lime 
1.5 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup greensand
0.5 cup gypsum (still need to source)

I'm also looking for some fish meal and fish bone meal to add to that list, although I could do without.

Anyways I'm really looking for some input on this mix, does my recipe look balanced? 

It'll be my first time mixing my own soil so I'm trying to keep it simple, but looking for any tips y'all might have for me.


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 2, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> What's up all you ROLS heads?
> 
> Been reading a hell of a lot over the last month on living soil. From the Rev, to here and eyecmag and I've decided to make the leap.
> 
> ...


Personally i would skip the dolomite lime and in its place use oyster shell. Some people prefer dolomite but I've seen it cause more problems than not. It has a cal to mag ratio of 2:1 and thats way too much mag for this mix


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 2, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> What's up all you ROLS heads?
> 
> Been reading a hell of a lot over the last month on living soil. From the Rev, to here and eyecmag and I've decided to make the leap.
> 
> ...


Other than that your mix looks good i would maybe even up the minerals a bit as well


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 2, 2018)

And if you cant source oyster shell calcitic lime is a much better option than dolomite lime. The ratio is more like 6:1 if i remember correctly


----------



## ShLUbY (Dec 2, 2018)

you could also do a half and half of oyster shell and dolomite lime. i would actually tone down the rock dust to 1c, or even a 1/2c, per cu. ft.


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 2, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> you could also do a half and half of oyster shell and dolomite lime. i would actually tone down the rock dust to 1c, or even a 1/2c, per cu. ft.


Half and half would work too. And yea i didnt realize it said 1.5 on the GRD i thought it said .5 for some reason. But yea i would tone down the GRD and up the gypsum. I usually try to keep around 3-4 cups total mineral sources in my mix and I've had nothing but good results.


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 2, 2018)

And i throw a little diatomaceous in my mix too.


----------



## ShLUbY (Dec 2, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> What's up all you ROLS heads?
> 
> Been reading a hell of a lot over the last month on living soil. From the Rev, to here and eyecmag and I've decided to make the leap.
> 
> ...


for what its worth, i put the fishbone meal in my mix. you have plenty of N with the crab meal, neem meal, and alfalfa. the fishbone will add a little more N, but more importantly the Phos. I think it's the better choice between the fish meal and the fishbone meal


----------



## CanadianDank (Dec 2, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> you could also do a half and half of oyster shell and dolomite lime. i would actually tone down the rock dust to 1c, or even a 1/2c, per cu. ft.





TheSpaceFarm said:


> Half and half would work too. And yea i didnt realize it said 1.5 on the GRD i thought it said .5 for some reason. But yea i would tone down the GRD and up the gypsum. I usually try to keep around 3-4 cups total mineral sources in my mix and I've had nothing but good results.


Thanks for the responses guys.

Yeah i went high on the GRD and added a bit of dolo because ive been having trouble finding a lot of the common amendments you guys use. I know I should be able to find gypsum but they didnt have it at either of the large garden centers i visited. I do see it as essential to balance out my c:m ratio. I know i want a 5:1.



ShLUbY said:


> for what its worth, i put the fishbone meal in my mix. you have plenty of N with the crab meal, neem meal, and alfalfa. the fishbone will add a little more N, but more importantly the Phos. I think it's the better choice between the fish meal and the fishbone meal


Yeah good call, i may not be able to get the crab meal here this time of year, im in Canada and we are entering the frozen season LOL. In which case i will go with fish bone meal, should be a little easier to find and i have been worried my mix was lacking P. Again, im learning and willing to topdress and brew teas when required. Hell if i have to ill use blood/bone meal, at least to get my feet wet. but id rather not.

I mean, I can get it all online, but shipping is ridiculous! Maybe i need to search harder.
Anyone in Canada have some ideas where to source these?


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 2, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> for what its worth, i put the fishbone meal in my mix. you have plenty of N with the crab meal, neem meal, and alfalfa. the fishbone will add a little more N, but more importantly the Phos. I think it's the better choice between the fish meal and the fishbone meal


Good call


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 2, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> Thanks for the responses guys.
> 
> Yeah i went high on the GRD and added a bit of dolo because ive been having trouble finding a lot of the common amendments you guys use. I know I should be able to find gypsum but they didnt have it at either of the large garden centers i visited. I do see it as essential to balance out my c:m ratio. I know i want a 5:1.
> 
> ...


Yea fuck shipping. And local is always best imo. You seem to have a pretty good idea of what you're doing man proceed with confidence lol


----------



## CanadianDank (Dec 2, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Yea fuck shipping. And local is always best imo. You seem to have a pretty good idea of what you're doing man proceed with confidence lol


Word!

And thanks for the kind words man, Its much appreciated. I'm lucky to have such a wealth of knowledge to draw from!


----------



## projectinfo (Dec 2, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> Thanks for the responses guys.
> 
> Yeah i went high on the GRD and added a bit of dolo because ive been having trouble finding a lot of the common amendments you guys use. I know I should be able to find gypsum but they didnt have it at either of the large garden centers i visited. I do see it as essential to balance out my c:m ratio. I know i want a 5:1.
> 
> ...


https://www.rollitup.org/t/canadian-suppliers.954133/page-30

Bustan. Ca

Blackswallowsoil.com 

Amazon


----------



## CanadianDank (Dec 2, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/t/canadian-suppliers.954133/page-30
> 
> Bustan. Ca
> 
> ...


Damn you just solved my sourcing issue right there. Thanks a mil.
Amazon I'd tried already. Shipping was ridiculous for what i could find.
Your the man!


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## MyFloridaGreen360 (Dec 3, 2018)

This is one of my current blends I'm utilizing. Regardless I have some different blends running too with more fixings however I genuinely trust this is an incredible begin for everybody that is sensibly evaluated. I used to revise commerical soils until the point when I got edify.


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## CaptainT (Dec 6, 2018)

Boogiebrew.ca 
Blackswallowsoil.com


----------



## ACitizenofColorado (Dec 7, 2018)

Hey everyone. It's been a while. I have a single, hopefully simple request: can you advise about how much of this (attached pictures of earth worm compost mix) to mix in my soil? 

The first question to address, how finished does this ewc look? Second, my standard approach is to sterilize all soil that is added to the grow in an oven at 200-210 for a few hours. Do other people also do this to prevent introducing pathogens? 

I hope to adhere to the 1/3 compost, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 peat/coco standard, unfortunately, the way I made my earthworm compost has complicated things. 

The base was coco/peat. Over time, I added pumice and rice hulls. I do not know what the ratio is of peat/coco to aeration to ewc. Can anyone let me know what you think this looks like, regarding ratios? 

I have a pre-made aeration mix with 1/3 bio-char, 1/3 pumice and 1/3 rice hulls. The plan is to inoculate the aeration in a compost tea, separate the solids in the tea from the liquid, then add the solids from the tea to base soil mix, inoculating the sterilized soil and tea solids with the tea liquid. 

So here's the question. I will also add oly mountain fish compost to the ewc mix to a ratio of 30%-70% to 50%-50% ( oly mountain to ewc). Regarding just the compost component, can anyone advise about a ratio for oly mountain to the shown ewc?

Once that oly mountain is added to the ewc, given the possible ratios, can anyone advise about compost to aeration to peat/coco mix? 

Should I be adding in more peat? 

Could I assume there are equal 1/3 parts rice/pumice, peat/coco, and ewc in the included pictures, and that this could represent 2/6 of the mix? Then, I would need an additional 1/6 of everything: aeration(rice/pumice/biochar, possibly heavy on the biochar), coco/peat, and oly mountain, with an extra 1/6 left over to fill in with any of the above. 

The mix has various other amendments that I'll describe in another post. For now, I'm hoping to address this first. 

Thank you to everyone that has considered this.


----------



## Big Perm (Dec 7, 2018)

ACitizenofColorado said:


> Can anyone let me know what you think this looks like, regarding ratios?


It looks like 10% perlite, that's about all I can add.


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## ShLUbY (Dec 7, 2018)

ACitizenofColorado said:


> Hey everyone. It's been a while. I have a single, hopefully simple request: can you advise about how much of this (attached pictures of earth worm compost mix) to mix in my soil?
> 
> The first question to address, how finished does this ewc look? Second, my standard approach is to sterilize all soil that is added to the grow in an oven at 200-210 for a few hours. Do other people also do this to prevent introducing pathogens?
> 
> ...


if i felt the need to sterilize something to bring it in to my room, it just wouldn't enter my room period. i've brought in compost many times, and also use compost in my worm bins. i wouldn't be concerned, especially with a good aerobic compost. it looks pretty finished. you could buy some 1/4" mesh screen and sift it a bit if you wanted too, but not necessary. looks good n dark. 

for what its worth, my current base recipe is 40% drainage, 40% peat, and 20% organic matter. because i recycle my soil, i rely on roots breaking down to add the majority of new organic matter to my mixes, but I always do add a few handfuls of various compost to my 4cuft. recycle mixes, just for microbial diversity reasons. always good to reintroduce populations!

and also, rice hulls are not the greatest for drainage. i like them as a mulch. I'm a pumice guy all the way.


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## Wetdog (Dec 8, 2018)

^^^THAT^^^

The whole point of a "LIVING" Organic soil is promoting a healthy, established, micro herd. Building one just to sterilize it is counter intuitive to the max. Pathogens are usually found because of poor aeration/drainage in a too dense mix.

Just from years of making my own mix and observing the plant growth & health, my mix is very like ShLUby's with a 40% - 40% - 20% ratio and the aeration edging close to 50% over time. Not just the roots breaking down, you are also constantly adding organic material from various seed meal amendments as you top dress.

I use perlite over pumice just because of the costs. There are none of the 'right' volcanos anywhere near SC (plenty of granite though), and I simply cannot afford the ~8cf worth of aeration I use in a year. Rice hulls are used somewhat in the worm bins, but only tried *once* as aeration. LOL

Wet


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## hillbill (Dec 9, 2018)

Rice hulls domwell for one cycle and eventually mostly be composted in a few months leaving rice hull remnants.


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## Trippinout (Dec 9, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> Damn you just solved my sourcing issue right there. Thanks a mil.
> Amazon I'd tried already. Shipping was ridiculous for what i could find.
> Your the man!


Black swallow soil has everything you’ll need and they are great help


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## CanadianDank (Dec 9, 2018)

Trippinout said:


> Black swallow soil has everything you’ll need and they are great help


Yeah they sure have a great selection, between them and Bustan I will be set. Just waiting for my next pay, things get tight for me around xmas.

so far this is what i have cooking, id love some input on what else i should add. Ive added no amendments with P, but i dont want to overdo the N.

*Base Mix :* 
1/3 EWC
1/3 Potting Soil (Ritchie's Feed n Seed house brand)
1/3 Perlite

*Amendments :* 
(per cubic ft)
0.5 cup alfalfa meal
0.5 cup kelp meal
0.5 cup dolomite lime
1.5 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup greensand
0.5 cup gypsum

I'm torn between adding Fish bone meal, Crab meal, and Neem meal.

I need a small P source, as well as a little more diversity. (I will def be adding the crab meal, need those chitins.)

Let me know what alll you guru's think.


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## ShLUbY (Dec 9, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> Yeah they sure have a great selection, between them and Bustan I will be set. Just waiting for my next pay, things get tight for me around xmas.
> 
> so far this is what i have cooking, id love some input on what else i should add. Ive added no amendments with P, but i dont want to overdo the N.
> 
> ...


neem meal and crab meal are a must for me. the fishbone is a nice addition as well and you could just run it at .25cups per cuft if you wanted... if your recipe included all three of the things you're thinking of adding, it would be very similar to mine.


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## CanadianDank (Dec 9, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> neem meal and crab meal are a must for me. the fishbone is a nice addition as well and you could just run it at .25cups per cuft if you wanted... if your recipe included all three of the things you're thinking of adding, it would be very similar to mine.


Thanks ShLUbY!

I may do that, it would be my preference to include all three with some reductions in amounts. 
Just comes down to my wallet, and shipping costs I guess.

What is your soil composed of?


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## ShLUbY (Dec 9, 2018)

CanadianDank said:


> Thanks ShLUbY!
> 
> I may do that, it would be my preference to include all three with some reductions in amounts.
> Just comes down to my wallet, and shipping costs I guess.
> ...


I have a couple different recipes posted in my thread. Link is in my signiture. I wanna say they’re posted Somewhere around pg 25-30


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## kushking42 (Dec 21, 2018)

Soil peeps,
Ive been trying to no till in 65 gallon pots. I seem to consistently run low on fertility since switching over to the cmh fixtures. About 3 weeks ago i scratched in a fist full of each of the following: fish, kelp, langbenite,rock dust and gypsum. Topped with a litre of bu's and a few.cups fully amended fresh coot mix.. it looks like they are hungry again. And two months before the most recent re amend i threw about two cups of every dry amendment i had on top with turkey compost. Can anyone help with a plan to keep my fertilty in check? When i used to till and re amend my fertility seemed more manageable. Thanks for any help guys.


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## IIReignManII (Dec 25, 2018)

I have Alfalfa, Blood, Bone, Kelp, Greensand, and Azomite on hand. In a 33/33/33 coco/humus/perlite, would I be safe just tossing in a half cup of each ingredient per cuft?


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## Trippinout (Dec 26, 2018)

Starting to see a deficiency
Can anyone help me with what I should add to correct
These are about 8 weeks old and are in coots mix and have been giving them water and coconut water every other feeding
Might top dress but not sure what to use 
At first I thought it was nitrogen but I don’t think it is since it seems new growth is more affected then the old growth 
This has been progressing for about a week


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## ShLUbY (Dec 26, 2018)

Trippinout said:


> Starting to see a deficiency
> Can anyone help me with what I should add to correct
> These are about 8 weeks old and are in coots mix and have been giving them water and coconut water every other feeding
> Might top dress but not sure what to use View attachment 4255286
> ...


Definitely not N, you are correct in that.

I would start by testing your soil's pH. Generally when the freshest growth is affected, it's because of an unavailability of nutrients. You're in cootz mix, so I know for a fact that the nutrients are in your soil... but the plant is having trouble getting them. Might I also suggest backing off on the coconut water. You're adding a lot of sugars to the soil, which promotes excess bacterial growth and can lead to them creating a slightly alkaline or neutral soil pH. The plant will give the organisms all the carbs they want. I know this is not your intention by using this product, but remember, this soil is designed to grow a plant start to finish with water only. You must remember, the plant is capable of growing itself. All you have to do is care for the soil.

Is this your first run with this soil, or have you recycled it before?


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## Trippinout (Dec 26, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> Definitely not N, you are correct in that.
> 
> I would start by testing your soil's pH. Generally when the freshest growth is affected, it's because of an unavailability of nutrients. You're in cootz mix, so I know for a fact that the nutrients are in your soil... but the plant is having trouble getting them. Might I also suggest backing off on the coconut water. You're adding a lot of sugars to the soil, which promotes excess bacterial growth and can lead to them creating a slightly alkaline or neutral soil pH. The plant will give the organisms all the carbs they want. I know this is not your intention by using this product, but remember, this soil is designed to grow a plant start to finish with water only. You must remember, the plant is capable of growing itself. All you have to do is care for the soil.
> 
> Is this your first run with this soil, or have you recycled it before?


First run I added some Epson salts for magnesium might get back to just water see if it clears up. I did by a water barrel that was food grade and held soy sauce but I made sure to rinse it four times maybe it’s possible the salt from that but it seems only a few plants are showing signs of it. Also have some fun gas gnats that I have been treating with nematodes


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## ShLUbY (Dec 26, 2018)

Trippinout said:


> First run I added some Epson salts for magnesium might get back to just water see if it clears up. I did by a water barrel that was food grade and held soy sauce but I made sure to rinse it four times maybe it’s possible the salt from that but it seems only a few plants are showing signs of it. Also have some fun gas gnats that I have been treating with nematodes
> View attachment 4255317


looks real good for the most part man. see if the soil will sort it out. Mg will get pulled from the lower leaves, it's mobile in the plant. So you'd see Mg def. in the oldest growth first.


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## MyFloridaGreen360 (Dec 28, 2018)

I also face this situation that was difficult to bear.


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## hillbill (Dec 28, 2018)

Watch the amount of Calcium and Potassium for Magnesium lockout. Been there before.


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## Trippinout (Dec 28, 2018)

It seems to have bounced back did a foiler spray a day ago with Epson salts aloe and coconut water. Also think it’s playing a role with it being far away from heater since tent is in garage and it’s winter here gets to about 64 with lights off. Had to start running exhaust fans since humidity jumps to 80 percent without them running. So currently the exhaust runs for a half hour every 2 hrs. Also if we use the garage door which I only use when lights are on might be affecting them with the burst of cold air. So I’ve moved the one showing signs of lockout to right by the heater and this is how they look today


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## Labrador weed (Dec 28, 2018)

Hello, I am just starting out with growing and about to go my second run. I was using general organics but want to switch to the super soil I’m about to use by a company named natures living soil, it’s already cooked and u add to potting soil (I will be making my own soon). they seem pretty solid and the people are nice,
my question is can I take a plant that was fed general organics and switch it to super soil Without any repercussions?
Also if somebody can give me a recipe or a link to a well-rounded and easy to obtain Organic tea/brew or any other information I should be aware of I will be much appreciated
Thank you


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## ShLUbY (Dec 28, 2018)

Labrador weed said:


> Hello, I am just starting out with growing and about to go my second run. I was using general organics but want to switch to the super soil I’m about to use by a company named natures living soil, it’s already cooked and u add to potting soil (I will be making my own soon). they seem pretty solid and the people are nice,
> my question is can I take a plant that was fed general organics and switch it to super soil Without any repercussions?
> Also if somebody can give me a recipe or a link to a well-rounded and easy to obtain Organic tea/brew or any other information I should be aware of I will be much appreciated
> Thank you


this thread and many others are full of stuff for you to look into, and the info is not hard to find if you poke around. you will have no issues switching to a living soil. i've done it with plants i've gotten from friends who grow with coco and synthetics. i just made sure to rinse the living hell out of the medium and root ball before i transplanted to living soil. i've never had one go to shit. the plant is genetically programmed to live in these environments, so it will figure it out quickly. 

if your company's soil is already composted and good to go, you really wont need to do any teas, as it should be full of microbial life. get your hands on some good compost, start a worm bin (if the grow goes well and you like the method), and start reading some materials like teaming with microbes and teaming with nutrients by Jeff lowenfels.

the biggest piece of advice i can offer you is to let the plant grow itself, and lose the feeling of needing to care for the plant, it only needs you to provide water as needed  you can manicure it the way you want of course. Just focus on taking care of your soil. 

microbial teas do not need to be applied often, and typically you're better off brewing fungal teas rather than bacterial ones. elaine ingham has compost tea recipes on her site soilfoodweb.com

good luck!


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## hillbill (Dec 29, 2018)

Been growing 99% organic for years and because I use about 7 qts/liters of mix I do feed both castings teas and light Alfalfa based teas. I also like “teas” made with a mix of minerals like green sand, azomite, limestone, gypsum, hardwood ash, kmag, Diatomaceous Earth and dolomite. Light amount of molasses with teas.

I keep my feeding teas very light, 1/2 tbs/gallon Alfalfa tea for example. Plants seem to enjoy the routine. My worms are also fed old forest leaf mold with fungi and whatever else is in that bottom layer.


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## Weezer80 (Jan 2, 2019)

Thank you Cann! Stoked on this thread and that I found this community - happy new year : )


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 4, 2019)

Greetings again fellow growers, im starting to get back in action after being quiet for a few years and have a few questions to clear up if anybody is willing to help : ) . What would you guys suggest regarding amount of plants in a 3x3x6H 600w HID ? Had 4 pots last time and i also recently made a 2x2x3H 150/250w HID that i was planning to veg/mother.

Would you guys suggest i stick to 4 x 5 gal / 20 litre pots for flower ? What sort of pot size would be recommendable for veg and transplant ? Thank YOU !

Current Base Mix : 

1/3 Aeration
1/3 Sphagnum Peat
1/3 EWC

Seedling Mix : 

2/5 Aeration
2/5 Sphagnum
1/5 EWC


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## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Greetings again fellow growers, im starting to get back in action after being quiet for a few years and have a few questions to clear up if anybody is willing to help : ) . What would you guys suggest regarding amount of plants in a 3x3x6H 600w HID ? Had 4 pots last time and i also recently made a 2x2x3H 150/250w HID that i was planning to veg/mother.
> 
> Would you guys suggest i stick to 4 x 5 gal / 20 litre pots for flower ? What sort of pot size would be recommendable for veg and transplant ? Thank YOU !
> 
> ...


Stick with 4 plants. Run 7 gals instead of five if plastic, run 10 gals for fabrics. I think I’m putting away my 5 gallon plastics for good. 

Also I’ve been putting my seedlings right in my normal strength soil with zero issues, not using a seed mix anymore. 

Happy growing


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 4, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> Stick with 4 plants. Run 7 gals instead of five if plastic, run 10 gals for fabrics. I think I’m putting away my 5 gallon plastics for good.
> 
> Also I’ve been putting my seedlings right in my normal strength soil with zero issues, not using a seed mix anymore.
> 
> Happy growing


Thanks Shluby ! Im definitely going to switch to fabrics aswell, so i take it i can use my base mix for my seedlings aswell ? 

If i may ask what sort of size would you use for the seedling pots that i will be transferring to the 10 gallons ? 

One more thing, if i had to do a practice run in the 2x2x3H with the 250W HPS for flowering would you say the best approach is to go with 1 topped plant in a 10 gallon atleast ? More soil the better the micro biome ? I take it 4 x 3 gallons would not be sufficient to support proper life or am i incorrect ? Thanks bud !


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## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thanks Shluby ! Im definitely going to switch to fabrics aswell, so i take it i can use my base mix for my seedlings aswell ?
> 
> If i may ask what sort of size would you use for the seedling pots that i will be transferring to the 10 gallons ?
> 
> One more thing, if i had to do a practice run in the 2x2x3H with the 250W HPS for flowering would you say the best approach is to go with 1 topped plant in a 10 gallon atleast ? More soil the better the micro biome ? I take it 4 x 3 gallons would not be sufficient to support proper life or am i incorrect ? Thanks bud !


by base mix, do you mean your amended mix?

i use a solo cup for seedlings and clones, then move to a one gallon, then to the final pot. i like to establish a good rootball before i move to a larger pot

if you only have 3 feet of height, you could get away with 3 gallon pots because of your small plant size, you'll be able to grow 4 smaller plants faster than one plant spread out through a trellis. 3' is not a lot of height man. that HPS has to be at least 12" away from the canopy... maybe even slightly further.

i would recommend 3 gallon plastics over 3 gallon fabrics. they'll require less water, and be less prone to drying out. i imagine 3 gallon fabrics will need A LOT of attention


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## Northwood (Jan 4, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> by base mix, do you mean your amended mix?
> 
> i use a solo cup for seedlings and clones, then move to a one gallon, then to the final pot. i like to establish a good rootball before i move to a larger pot


I used to do that. Now I spout my seeds in 15 gallon pots. I guess I'm lazy, but I pull out a bit of cover crop to have enough bare soil to plant a seed, flatten the vegetation around it to let it get full lighting, and just let it go all the way to harvest. Luckily the worms and 100 other crazy things living in there don't seem to eat it. LOL


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## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2019)

Northwood said:


> I used to do that. Now I spout my seeds in 15 gallon pots. I guess I'm lazy, but I pull out a bit of cover crop to have enough bare soil to plant a seed, flatten the vegetation around it to let it get full lighting, and just let it go all the way to harvest. Luckily the worms and 100 other crazy things living in there don't seem to eat it. LOL


nothing wrong with that, just takes a little finesse  if i had space to do it still, I would!


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 4, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> by base mix, do you mean your amended mix?
> 
> i use a solo cup for seedlings and clones, then move to a one gallon, then to the final pot. i like to establish a good rootball before i move to a larger pot
> 
> ...


Yep my mix of only 1/3 pumice 1/3 ewc and 1/3 sphagnum

Perfect, noted down those sizes for near future use with the 600w.

So you would say 3 gallon plastics would be okay for some life in the soil bud ? As attached in the pics i already have 2 x 3 gallon plastic pots which you can see is quite a tight squeeze in there but 4 will fit ! : ) I do also have a 150w HPS which can allow the plants to get way higher but only gives out a mighty 18000 lumen  lol 250w puts out 34000 lumen but it does get hot! I can however use the 3x3 600w but i feel that might be a waste of electricity with such small pots ? using the 250w and 150w in the 3x3 would be pretty sweet if i could somehow mount them both in my 6" super sun 2 reflector but i guess a 400w isnt way more efficient than a 600w. 

Open to any suggestions. Thanks again bud !!!


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## Northwood (Jan 4, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> nothing wrong with that, just takes a little finesse  if i had space to do it still, I would!


It's a 5X5 foot tent. The 15 gallon pots are actually totes... well those blue-bin recycling boxes they sell at Home Depot for $9 Canadian. Honestly, I'd rather make it one "bed" of soil to grow the 4 legal (Canada here! LOL) plants. Like 100 gallons or something. I was thinking one of those small kiddie pools? Like the 4 foot ones?

Sadly my wife wouldn't like it because we need the space in between seedling time to grow out vegetable seedlings to plant out in spring (for eating, not smoking). I guess I could place those vegetable trays on top of the soil. I'll try convince her! 

I plant my cover crop while my plants are still alive in flower. I do a staggerd harvest, where I take all the top ripe stuff off first to allow any buds underneath without as much light to mature. More light then hits my soil, so I plant my cover after that first harvest with an underlying new layer of worm poop. The cover crop grows while I wait for those lower buds to ripen, and when I finally cut off those stalks my cover is usually already a few inches high with a good root system. A couple weeks later, I make room for new seeds.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Yep my mix of only 1/3 pumice 1/3 ewc and 1/3 sphagnum
> 
> Perfect, noted down those sizes for near future use with the 600w.
> 
> ...


but you have added amendments to this base or no? are you feeding bottled nutrients? I'm still unclear...

3 gallons will support life, the main thing is to be sure to compost the soil all together, then disperse it to each pot.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2019)

Northwood said:


> It's a 5X5 foot tent. The 15 gallon pots are actually totes... well those blue-bin recycling boxes they sell at Home Depot for $9 Canadian. Honestly, I'd rather make it one "bed" of soil to grow the 4 legal (Canada here! LOL) plants. Like 100 gallons or something. I was thinking one of those small kiddie pools? Like the 4 foot ones?
> 
> Sadly my wife wouldn't like it because we need the space in between seedling time to grow out vegetable seedlings to plant out in spring (for eating, not smoking). I guess I could place those vegetable trays on top of the soil. I'll try convince her!
> 
> I plant my cover crop while my plants are still alive in flower. I do a staggerd harvest, where I take all the top ripe stuff off first to allow any buds underneath without as much light to mature. More light then hits my soil, so I plant my cover after that first harvest with an underlying new layer of worm poop. The cover crop grows while I wait for those lower buds to ripen, and when I finally cut off those stalks my cover is usually already a few inches high with a good root system. A couple weeks later, I make room for new seeds.


when i get into a new house, i'm going to have 5x5ft tents, each with its own large bed, like you are talking, 200 gals or so, that way i can independently control photoperiods for each bed. it's going to be amazing. I'm so tired of recycling soil, i want to get back to no-till, but i don't have the veg space for no-till to feed three 600w lamps for flower with my current set up.


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## Northwood (Jan 4, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> when i get into a new house, i'm going to have 5x5ft tents, each with its own large bed, like you are talking, 200 gals or so, that way i can independently control photoperiods for each bed. it's going to be amazing. I'm so tired of recycling soil, i want to get back to no-till, but i don't have the veg space for no-till to feed three 600w lamps for flower with my current set up.


Three 600w lamps? HPS? I'm just using regular household LED light bulbs. I used to use HPS with DWC. Now I've gone full circle and now organic with Dollar Store bulbs. Hahaha!

My current grow, light bulbs... 4 plants in a 5X5 tent, no-till organic. That was a week ago. I'll be taking more pics this weekend. Buds are much bigger now.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2019)

Northwood said:


> Three 600w lamps? HPS? I'm just using regular household LED light bulbs. I used to use HPS with DWC. Now I've gone full circle and now organic with Dollar Store bulbs. Hahaha!
> 
> My current grow, light bulbs... 4 plants in a 5X5 tent, no-till organic. That was a week ago. I'll be taking more pics this weekend. Buds are much bigger now.


haha that's a lot of bulbs! yeah i have a 6.5x14 flowering room. i want to make the LED switch, but it's just not time for me yet. i totally am on board with them though!

healthy looking plants you have there!


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## Northwood (Jan 4, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> haha that's a lot of bulbs! yeah i have a 6.5x14 flowering room. i want to make the LED switch, but it's just not time for me yet. i totally am on board with them though!
> 
> healthy looking plants you have there!


Yeah a lot of bulbs is right! LOL... it's about 840 watts from wall worth - 20 bulbs per DIY fixture, 3 fixtures. It was an "experiment" that turned out rather well. Obviously the efficiency is no where near the newest diodes on new quantum boards and strips, but the lowest yield I got was 1.2 grams per watt. It saves me power though, because I can unscrew all the bulbs except for what I need on my plants as they develop, and choose the spectral temperature I want as they grow. Once you pop the plastic covers off, they're very directional. Spread them evenly over your canopy, and there's no such thing as shadows.

My wife originally gave me the challenge. Light a 5X5 foot tent under $300 Canadian. I did it


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## ShLUbY (Jan 4, 2019)

Northwood said:


> Yeah a lot of bulbs is right! LOL... it's about 840 watts from wall worth - 20 bulbs per DIY fixture, 3 fixtures. It was an "experiment" that turned out rather well. Obviously the efficiency is no where near the newest diodes on new quantum boards and strips, but the lowest yield I got was 1.2 grams per watt. It saves me power though, because I can unscrew all the bulbs except for what I need on my plants as they develop, and choose the spectral temperature I want as they grow. Once you pop the plastic covers off, they're very directional. Spread them evenly over your canopy, and there's no such thing as shadows.
> 
> My wife originally gave me the challenge. Light a 5X5 foot tent under $300 Canadian. I did it


haha nice work! and yeah the flexibility of those bulbs is a nice thing!


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## Northwood (Jan 4, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> haha nice work! and yeah the flexibility of those bulbs is a nice thing!


My first real indoor grow was with florescent "grow" tubes... 8 of them, 4 feet long ones. That was back in 1978 I think if I remember correctly? LOL

What crappy plants I grew, but it did grow smokable bud. Just very little. Then I discovered HPS many years later, and oh my! What a friggin' difference. Then I went hydro with it, because back then that was the "best" bud to smoke. In the early 80's anything worth smoking was called "hydro". Hahaha

But also in those early 80s we bought a hobby farm, and I became interested in organic gardening, even to the point of getting organic certification for the farm a few years later. But organic produce wasn't popular back then, and most of the veggies I grew went to farmgate markets. Like I grew 2 acres of green tomatoes organically for a company who didn't care whether they were organic or not. Grrrrr. But for my tomatoes and especially for the environment, I think organic was the best way to go even if the buyer didn't appreciate it.


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## SouthernSoil* (Jan 5, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> but you have added amendments to this base or no? are you feeding bottled nutrients? I'm still unclear...
> 
> 3 gallons will support life, the main thing is to be sure to compost the soil all together, then disperse it to each pot.


No amendments added bro at the moment its only the base and my tea for flowering which consists of lacto's, molasses, fish hydrolysate, chicken poo & EWC.

Would you say i should probably be adding some amendments for instance some alfalfa meal , neem powder , kelp meal & some local rock dust? Open to any other suggestions you recommend, it seems there's way more available locally than what there was 4 years ago down here !

I take it you have had some decent success with the 3 gallons then ? I dont mind waiting a bit longer training 1 plant in something bigger possibly a 7 gallon with 5 gallons of soil and 2 gallons mulch? The problem i am faced with down here is that this pumice is pricey, i would love to get the 4 x 10 gallons going right now but my budget doesn't allow for it, the pumice alone will set me back 125$ 

I can however get 15 gallons of base mix going, 20 will be pushing it as i still need amendments etc but then i guess i could try push for 4 x 5 gallons in the 3x3x6 which is still not efficient as you mentioned 4 x 10 gallons would be best. 

I could also extend the 2x2x3 to a 2x2x4 as its a DIY the 4 x 3 foot polls are actually for my 3x3 but will be getting more as soon as the businesses open from vacation. 

Thanks again for the help & tips, much respect Shluby !


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## ShLUbY (Jan 5, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> No amendments added bro at the moment its only the base and my tea for flowering which consists of lacto's, molasses, fish hydrolysate, chicken poo & EWC.
> 
> Would you say i should probably be adding some amendments for instance some alfalfa meal , neem powder , kelp meal & some local rock dust? Open to any other suggestions you recommend, it seems there's way more available locally than what there was 4 years ago down here !
> 
> ...


The base mix alone is not going to carry you from start to finish. Even if you are using teas, those alone with the base mix Are not going to supply enough nutrition. The whole idea of organic growing is letting the plants and the soil do the work.

you want slow release nutrition in the form of amendments so that the plant and the microbes can facilitate the process of nutrient acquisition themselves. That way, you the grower, do not Need to worry about feeding the plant.

I personally do not have experience flowering with 3 gallon containers, but a member who used to frequent this forum would put 12 to 16 three gallon containers under each flowering light with success.

I would advise you to add another foot to your growth chamber


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 5, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> The base mix alone is not going to carry you from start to finish. Even if you are using teas, those alone with the base mix Are not going to supply enough nutrition. The whole idea of organic growing is letting the plants and the soil do the work.
> 
> you want slow release nutrition in the form of amendments so that the plant and the microbes can facilitate the process of nutrient acquisition themselves. That way, you the grower, do not Need to worry about feeding the plant.
> 
> ...


I understand bud, makes a lot of sense, dont want popcorn at the end of the day either right ? ill find that thread and let you know, should be really interesting.

Would you say even with 3 foot height its not good enough for a mother and clones as well ? Otherwise i guess i should just use my 250w in the 3x3 with the super sun 2, level 1 speed on the 6" inline fan and drop it quite low ?

Last question, say im done with the 3 gallon grow, could i then transplant that pot into say 5, 7 or 10 gallon fabric as long as i cover the bottom and sides with the fresh amended soil ? Thanks again bud


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 5, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I understand bud, makes a lot of sense, dont want popcorn at the end of the day either right ? ill find that thread and let you know, should be really interesting.
> 
> Would you say even with 3 foot height its not good enough for a mother and clones as well ? Otherwise i guess i should just use my 250w in the 3x3 with the super sun 2, level 1 speed on the 6" inline fan and drop it quite low ?
> 
> Last question, say im done with the 3 gallon grow, could i then transplant that pot into say 5, 7 or 10 gallon fabric as long as i cover the bottom and sides with the fresh amended soil ? Thanks again bud


yeah i mean 3' will only work for so long. factor in distance of the light away from the plants and the height of the container... doesn't leave much room for growth. for growing small plants (like cloning or starting seeds and what not) 3' is fine.. but if you intend on flowering, 3' is not gonna leave you wishing for more.

by "done with the 3 gallon grow" i'm assuming you mean, you've run a full cycle and harvested the plants? then yes you could transplant that into a new pot, but the soil from the 3 gallon will be short on nutrition. you could bust it all apart and add some more amendments and let it sit for a few weeks to compost. (any mix you make, whether new or recycled, must be composted for 3-4 weeks)

remember, with organics, you want to feed the soil, with the plant in mind of course, but more importantly stop trying to feed the plant directly. the plant can feed itself better than you can feed it


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Jan 6, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i mean 3' will only work for so long. factor in distance of the light away from the plants and the height of the container... doesn't leave much room for growth. for growing small plants (like cloning or starting seeds and what not) 3' is fine.. but if you intend on flowering, 3' is not gonna leave you wishing for more.
> 
> by "done with the 3 gallon grow" i'm assuming you mean, you've run a full cycle and harvested the plants? then yes you could transplant that into a new pot, but the soil from the 3 gallon will be short on nutrition. you could bust it all apart and add some more amendments and let it sit for a few weeks to compost. (any mix you make, whether new or recycled, must be composted for 3-4 weeks)
> 
> remember, with organics, you want to feed the soil, with the plant in mind of course, but more importantly stop trying to feed the plant directly. the plant can feed itself better than you can feed it


Thanks bud, looks like i could extend it to just over 4 foot about 50 " if i go that route, currently it sits at exactly 41.7". I take it you would still recommend over 41.7" even for a mother ?

I guess trying to pot a 3 gallon wont be too easy and ill be destroying the microbes anyway, will keep that in mind & re-amend like you mentioned ! 3-4 weeks will be minimum.

Definitely have to focus on the soil, feeding the soil is most important, appreciate the heads up man.

If i may ask would this imported German peat which is a mix of 60% black peat moss & 40% coarse white sphagnum peat moss be suitable ? I dont take it matters much between medium and coarse? Thanks again Shluby, cant wait to get this grow going ! Peace


----------



## CanadianDank (Jan 10, 2019)

So I've received my order from black swallow soil and got everything mixed up now.

*Current Amendments :*
(per cubic ft)
0.5 cup neem cake
0.5 cup fish bone meal
0.5 cup crab meal
0.5 cup alfalfa meal
0.5 cup kelp meal
0.5 cup dolomite lime
1.5 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup greensand
0.5 cup gypsum

Thinking I may double the mix this weekend, just to be able to up my pot size.

Do you guys think this may be a tad too much N? 
It's neem cake, so I was hoping that would have a longer release time than meal.


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 10, 2019)

CanadianDank said:


> So I've received my order from black swallow soil and got everything mixed up now.
> 
> *Current Amendments :*
> (per cubic ft)
> ...


looks fine to me. I've had great results with pretty much that exact same recipe


----------



## CanadianDank (Jan 10, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> looks fine to me. I've had great results with pretty much that exact same recipe


Thanks, I'm excited to really try this and do it right.

Got my worm bin set up 2 weeks ago and I've really noticed the food start to disappear now.
Quality humus is my weak point right now. Bought bagged castings that had been sterilized.


----------



## SCJedi (Jan 10, 2019)

CanadianDank said:


> So I've received my order from black swallow soil and got everything mixed up now.
> 
> *Current Amendments :*
> (per cubic ft)
> ...


Is this a virgin mix or is this amendment to a system that has been grown in already?


----------



## CanadianDank (Jan 11, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> Is this a virgin mix or is this amendment to a system that has been grown in already?


Fresh mix, base is equal parts organic bagged soil, ewc, and perlite.


----------



## Labrador weed (Jan 13, 2019)

Can someone help me?
Basically I’m about to start a worm bin so I can have my own worm castings
What I’m wondering is can I take Foxfarm soil that i used general organics liquid products in and Then use that for the dirt in my warm bin
Also will this dirt be fully organic after a while? and if not Is there anyway to get it back to it’s organic form or should I just toss it
Thanks
Also, general organic is Not fully organic (I assume) which is why I am asking
Thanks


----------



## Mohican (Jan 14, 2019)

It will be fine. The worms do a great job of making any soil magic


----------



## Northwood (Jan 19, 2019)

Labrador weed said:


> Can someone help me?
> Basically I’m about to start a worm bin so I can have my own worm castings
> What I’m wondering is can I take Foxfarm soil that i used general organics liquid products in and Then use that for the dirt in my warm bin
> Also will this dirt be fully organic after a while? and if not Is there anyway to get it back to it’s organic form or should I just toss it
> ...


Keep in mind that you don't need much soil (or even dirt) to start a worm bin. It's more of an inoculant to supply organisms and some habitat to the worms that already have some castings with them. I started my original first bin from soil outside from my compost pile. It was filled with life - lots of springtails and woodlice that are alive in my growing medium today (along with worms). Adding living soil to your bin is better than dirt, but yeah, dirt will turn into soil eventually as long as you feed your worms because they will pass it through their bodies while travelling and enrich it with bacteria when they poop. The main thing is to keep a good "green to brown" ratio... or nitrogen rich to carbon rich ratio really. If at any time your bin smells of something other than rich soil or compost, it's likely because of too much food. If your bin heats up and kills all your worms, you've definitely added too much green food! Lol (Hey it's almost happened to me!)


----------



## SCJedi (Jan 19, 2019)

When I first started my worm bin it was just wet newsprint strips and a handful of kitchen scraps. They loved it. Moral of the story: Don't overthink it.


----------



## Big Perm (Jan 20, 2019)

Northwood said:


> Three 600w lamps? HPS? I'm just using regular household LED light bulbs. I used to use HPS with DWC. Now I've gone full circle and now organic with Dollar Store bulbs. Hahaha!
> 
> My current grow, light bulbs... 4 plants in a 5X5 tent, no-till organic. That was a week ago. I'll be taking more pics this weekend. Buds are much bigger now.


Nice! What week is that?


----------



## jHands (Jan 23, 2019)

Having some issues in this living soil. Base soil mix was equal parts EWC, pumice, cspm amended coot style. It sat outside for 30 days under a tarp in below ideal temperature (45 degree average). When I brought it into my 4x8 bed in my sealed room, my co2 wasn’t kicking on because the soil was offgassing so much co2 into my room. I don’t believe it’s “cooked” long enough. Got the co2 issues under control and the plants came back to life with some vigorous dark green growth temporarily, but now are all forming black tips with gold/metallic burn. One half of the bed took longer to start showing symptoms. Wondering if this is nitrogen toxicity due to the soil being too hot? And if so, how long will it take the soil to calm down? Will these plants survive or should I just bank on a failure?


----------



## hillbill (Jan 23, 2019)

jHands said:


> Having some issues in this living soil. Base soil mix was equal parts EWC, pumice, cspm amended coot style. It sat outside for 30 days under a tarp in below ideal temperature (45 degree average). When I brought it into my 4x8 bed in my sealed room, my co2 wasn’t kicking on because the soil was offgassing so much co2 into my room. I don’t believe it’s “cooked” long enough. Got the co2 issues under control and the plants came back to life with some vigorous dark green growth temporarily, but now are all forming black tips with gold/metallic burn. One half of the bed took longer to start showing symptoms. Wondering if this is nitrogen toxicity due to the soil being too hot? And if so, how long will it take the soil to calm down? Will these plants survive or should I just bank on a failure?


1/3 EWC can make a mix very soupy and keep the roots from absorbing oxygen. They do not have coarser fibers that give body and lift to other composts.


----------



## jHands (Jan 23, 2019)

hillbill said:


> 1/3 EWC can make a mix very soupy and keep the roots from absorbing oxygen. They do not have coarser fibers that give body and lift to other composts.


Are you leaning towards root rot? I have quite a bit of pumice in this mix. Mostly small to medium with a few bags of larger mixed in.

I was really leaning towards Nute Burn and nitrogen toxicity due to how the girls came back to life vigorously, got super dark green, then started to burn.


----------



## CanadianDank (Jan 23, 2019)

Honestly man at that temp I doubt much breakdown occurred over those thirty days, your basically in a freshly mixed soil. And now with the different rates at which your amendments breakdown and become available you have an improperly balanced soil and your pH will be out of whack.
I am no pro in this at all and I'm a newb to living soil so take this with a grain of salt
If it were me I'd probably water with a compost tea, mulch the beds and cross my fingers.
Hopefully someone else will be able to offer more insight.
If you have the means, start new seeds as a backup.

@jHands


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 23, 2019)

CanadianDank said:


> Honestly man at that temp I doubt much breakdown occurred over those thirty days, your basically in a freshly mixed soil. And now with the different rates at which your amendments breakdown and become available you have an improperly balanced soil and your pH will be out of whack.
> I am no pro in this at all and I'm a newb to living soil so take this with a grain of salt
> If it were me I'd probably water with a compost tea, mulch the beds and cross my fingers.
> Hopefully someone else will be able to offer more insight.
> ...


adding compost tea will only exacerbate the issue. the populations are already exploding, so no need to add more haha. need to soil to reach a microbial equilibrium, aka carrying capacity, for things to settle down. but i agree with your speculation about the pH and the availability of nutrition. to my knowledge, he's planning on adding a cover crop, or has already broadcast seeds to do so. 

with so many variables at play, it's really had to dial in on the exact cause.

lesson is... don't compost soil in cold weather temperatures


----------



## Mohican (Jan 23, 2019)

I usually cook my soil over the winter (at least three months).

Nowadays I just use crab meal and kelp meal and a little epsom.


----------



## hillbill (Jan 23, 2019)

I’ve used pretty fresh mix in emergencies and was surprised how well it did. I like a month or more at room temp.


----------



## Devildenis69 (Jan 24, 2019)

I had some very similar scenario to yours, some dank plants at the beginning of flowering and around +35 the same burn on leafs and some redder stems than yours 

I figured its a micro def of some sort, so I skipped my fish bone input (high P), got some azomite (micro) & gypsum (drainage) and will go well over 50 % aeration, this mix is cooking, so cant say if I am on the right track 

Anyway I am curious about other members input

Good luck and respect wet/dry cycles


----------



## Mohican (Jan 25, 2019)

Look what popped up in one of my old grow buckets after our big rain:



I need to start sifting some worm castings!

Cheers,
Mo


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 25, 2019)

Mohican said:


> Look what popped up in one of my old grow buckets after our big rain:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


your yard is like a seed lottery! you never know what you'll win! hahahaha


----------



## hillbill (Jan 25, 2019)

Had a somethingflower in my Bee Balm in partial to mostly shade and went tight till October harvest of a few small buds.


----------



## Mazer (Jan 29, 2019)

Dear Northwood,
Please do allow me to congratulate you on your superb low-tech light source. any chance you show us the backside of this beauty?

Parvertly yours,
M



Northwood said:


>


----------



## hillbill (Jan 29, 2019)

Northwood said:


> Three 600w lamps? HPS? I'm just using regular household LED light bulbs. I used to use HPS with DWC. Now I've gone full circle and now organic with Dollar Store bulbs. Hahaha!
> 
> My current grow, light bulbs... 4 plants in a 5X5 tent, no-till organic. That was a week ago. I'll be taking more pics this weekend. Buds are much bigger now.


Awesome.... might want to check under cabinet led 24” strips at Walmart. Use them myself for shop!


----------



## Northwood (Jan 31, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Awesome.... might want to check under cabinet led 24” strips at Walmart. Use them myself for shop!


Very funny guys. But 1.2 grams per watt with living organic no-till isn't too bad. Yes, very experienced growers with the newest diodes can do 1.6 grams per watt in flower. But as a Canadian it would have cost me thousands of dollars to light up my 5X5 tent with that technology. For my legal 4 plant limit in Canada the objective was to demonstrate how we can grow at least 1 kilogram (2.2 pounds for you) from 25 square feet for just $200 CDN in Dollar Store or Walmart light bulbs or whatever. And there it is. https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/

Frankly I'm surprised to see such attitudes on the organic no-till thread, but considering recent politics in certain countries, nothing surprises me anymore. I get it, but it doesn't mean I have to accept it.


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 31, 2019)

Northwood said:


> Very funny guys. But 1.2 grams per watt with living organic no-till isn't too bad. Yes, very experienced growers with the newest diodes can do 1.6 grams per watt in flower. But as a Canadian it would have cost me thousands of dollars to light up my 5X5 tent with that technology. For my legal 4 plant limit in Canada the objective was to demonstrate how we can grow at least 1 kilogram (2.2 pounds for you) from 25 square feet for just $200 CDN in Dollar Store or Walmart light bulbs or whatever. And there it is. https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/
> 
> Frankly I'm surprised to see such attitudes on the organic no-till thread, but considering recent politics in certain countries, nothing surprises me anymore. I get it, but it doesn't mean I have to accept it.


i dont think he meant anything by it man. dont take it to heart 

WHY don't you have that link in your signiture!?!?! I would have been there weeks ago!

Cheers.


----------



## ACitizenofColorado (Feb 3, 2019)

Northwood said:


> Very funny guys. But 1.2 grams per watt with living organic no-till isn't too bad. Yes, very experienced growers with the newest diodes can do 1.6 grams per watt in flower. But as a Canadian it would have cost me thousands of dollars to light up my 5X5 tent with that technology. For my legal 4 plant limit in Canada the objective was to demonstrate how we can grow at least 1 kilogram (2.2 pounds for you) from 25 square feet for just $200 CDN in Dollar Store or Walmart light bulbs or whatever. And there it is. https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/
> 
> Frankly I'm surprised to see such attitudes on the organic no-till thread, but considering recent politics in certain countries, nothing surprises me anymore. I get it, but it doesn't mean I have to accept it.


Care to flesh out what you mean by certain politics in certain countries? 

No point being vague. Speak clearly or acknowledge you have nothing to say.


----------



## Northwood (Feb 3, 2019)

ACitizenofColorado said:


> Care to flesh out what you mean by certain politics in certain countries?
> 
> No point being vague. Speak clearly or acknowledge you have nothing to say.


I have nothing to say except take it easy. Do a dab or vape something. I'm sure Theresa May will get everything right one of these days. Best of luck to you!


----------



## Northwood (Feb 3, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> i dont think he meant anything by it man. dont take it to heart
> 
> WHY don't you have that link in your signiture!?!?! I would have been there weeks ago!
> 
> Cheers.


Yeah maybe I should put it in there. I'm still a bit new here. 

I'm changing up my next grow. I have a giant 4 foot round fabric pot that I'll grow all 4 plants in. So unfortunately it means I'll be breaking up my current soil (with all root balls included of course), and building from scratch again. We'll be using the tent mostly for growing out spring vegetable seedlings soon, so it will give the soil some time to "cook" and also for a preliminary cover crop. I'm still in the middle of harvest of my current crop, but I'm really looking forward to trying out the new system. I'm going to need a lot more worm castings. I have 3 nested bins going now, and the 3 on the bottom are finished...the 2nd level bins are "almost" ready - maybe a month away. So hopefully that's enough.


----------



## Mazer (Feb 12, 2019)

Northwood said:


> I have nothing to say except take it easy. Do a dab or vape something. I'm sure Theresa May will get everything right one of these days. Best of luck to you!


Dear Northwood,

Please do accept my sincere apologies if my post has created this unpleasant turmoil generating an almost fetid and fairly unpleasant atmosphere for you and all of us in here. 
I was truly admiring your craftsmanship and "KISS" genius. 
Performance is obviously important for anyone growing any type of crop. However, cost of performance has to be taken into consideration and dialed into one's objectives and budget.
Again, BRAVO for your setup! 
And allow me the restate my request, please do post a picture of the wiring of your lights.

Peaceseekingly yours,
M


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Feb 13, 2019)

hey guys, I just finished writing down my newest update on my version of a probiotic sip pot, was hoping maybe someone here, has some input? just trying to perfect it, or maybe it will help someone! pop in if u like!
https://www.rollitup.org/t/greens-wedding-cake-sip-probiotics.984543/


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 17, 2019)

Northwood said:


> Three 600w lamps? HPS? I'm just using regular household LED light bulbs. I used to use HPS with DWC. Now I've gone full circle and now organic with Dollar Store bulbs. Hahaha!
> 
> My current grow, light bulbs... 4 plants in a 5X5 tent, no-till organic. That was a week ago. I'll be taking more pics this weekend. Buds are much bigger now.


This is amazing, dude.


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 17, 2019)

DonPetro said:


> This is amazing, dude.


DP! What is happening my dude? I hope yourself and DT are doing well!


----------



## IIReignManII (Feb 21, 2019)

Just wanted to share my soil recipe thats worked wonders for me so far...Credit to ShLUbY for his advice on the ratios.

Base:

1/3 perlite 
1/3 coco coir 
1/6 local compost 
1/6 Wiggle Worm Castings 

Nutrients per cubic foot of base 
1/2 cup: Espoma Alfalfa Meal, Espoma Bone Meal, Espoma Greensand, Micronized Azomite, Espoma Bio-Tone, Espoma Garden Gypsum 

3/4 cup: Neptunes Harvest Kelp Meal

1/4 cup: Espoma Blood Meal, Espoma Garden Lime 

Microbes 

Mykos, applied directly to the rootball during transplant
Oregonism XL, two tablespoons per cubic foot of soil.


----------



## WeedFreak78 (Feb 23, 2019)

One thing I haven't seen talked about, and I've been searching for days, is indoor no till beds filling up over time from constant amendments/ewc/compost additions. I know my outside no till veggie beds are easily a foot taller then when I started 3 years ago. If i build a 24" deep bed and only fill it to 20", how long before I have it filled to the top? I'm thinking if I do 4 cycles a year with top dressing every cycle I'm gonna be close to 22" deep by the end of the year. So 2, maybe 3, years until it's full? Then what? Won't stripping the top soil back down throw the soil out of balance? Would it be better to remove plugs, like in lawn aeration, and allow it to settle naturally?


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Feb 23, 2019)

dam good question ^^^


----------



## hyroot (Feb 25, 2019)

Once every 12-18 months. I empty indoor pots and beds and throw the soil into bins and re-amend and cook said soil. Then I add another batch of used / recyceld soil thats already been cooking to pots and beds. I never have to worry about the soil level getting too high

I do this mostly because the soil gets too compacted from watering and top dressing. Even with worms in the soil.

I never throw out my soil. I just reamend with castings, bokashi, dry amendments, and sometimes more pumice. Then use that soil when ready or needed. All my soil is near 10 years old.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 25, 2019)

Hyroot!

How are you?


----------



## hyroot (Feb 25, 2019)

Mohican said:


> Hyroot!
> 
> How are you?



I'm good. Same ole same ole. Working on breeding mostly. How have you been?


----------



## Mohican (Feb 26, 2019)

Working and not working. Both can be a drag. Just got a new gig for six months and the team rocks.


----------



## Chronikool (Mar 3, 2019)

'Power OG' in ROLS on day 50


----------



## ShLUbY (Mar 3, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Power OG' in ROLS on day 50
> 
> View attachment 4293650


looks powerful! beautiful as always!


----------



## Chronikool (Mar 3, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> looks powerful! beautiful as always!


Spot the gnat...! Grrrrrr!


----------



## ShLUbY (Mar 3, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> Spot the gnat...! Grrrrrr!


hahaha didn't see it stuck in all that resin at the top LOL. little fuckers. They always be sticking to these ooey gooey organic flowers  . I was too mesmerized by the high quality herb to notice the little guy


----------



## hillbill (Mar 4, 2019)

GNATROL


----------



## hyroot (Mar 4, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> Spot the gnat...! Grrrrrr!



I bet you named him too.


----------



## ShLUbY (Mar 4, 2019)

hyroot said:


> I bet you named him too.


gnatty ice


----------



## bleepboop (Mar 6, 2019)

Got a ritha/soapnut query...

If using ritha powder and aloe powder to blend and emulsify neem oil (I have karanja oil too) to make some red spider mites unwelcome - should I be worried about the ritha having a harmful effect on the fungal vs bacterial equilibrium by harming fungal network?

In a 20 gallon fabric raised bed in a notill soil mix. Very hay based mulch layer.
Plants themselves seem fine and spider mites leaving relatively alone but don't want to give them too much breathing room. Equally I don't want to cause another problem with my solution.


----------



## SCJedi (Mar 7, 2019)

WeedFreak78 said:


> One thing I haven't seen talked about, and I've been searching for days, is indoor no till beds filling up over time from constant amendments/ewc/compost additions. I know my outside no till veggie beds are easily a foot taller then when I started 3 years ago. If i build a 24" deep bed and only fill it to 20", how long before I have it filled to the top? I'm thinking if I do 4 cycles a year with top dressing every cycle I'm gonna be close to 22" deep by the end of the year. So 2, maybe 3, years until it's full? Then what? Won't stripping the top soil back down throw the soil out of balance? Would it be better to remove plugs, like in lawn aeration, and allow it to settle naturally?


Add worms, they'll break it all down for you


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Mar 8, 2019)

IIReignManII said:


> Just wanted to share my soil recipe thats worked wonders for me so far...Credit to ShLUbY for his advice on the ratios.
> 
> Base:
> 
> ...



Thanks for sharing your mix man !

I've been on the lookout for what sort of nutrients/amendments i should be adding.

My base mix is 1/3 pumice, 1/3 peat, 1/3 earth worm castings & hoping something similar can work, i cannot however find greensand locally at all & i would have to make my own bio-tone from the ingredients listed on its packaging ( Feather Manure, Poultry Manure, Bone Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Greensand, Sulfate of Potash, Sulfate of Potash Magnesia, 936 Colony Forming Units. 

I cannot find oregonism xl but there is a local company here which can supply local myco products.They have a liquid form and powdered form.

"Mycoroot products have been developed using southern African isolates of AM fungi. These are naturally occurring soil microorganisms, which have not been genetically altered in any way. The product is 100% mycorrhizal with no other additives or chemicals making it environmentally friendly and suitable for organic plant production."

Any help will be pretty cool ! Thanks


----------



## hillbill (Mar 8, 2019)

If your castings are quite pure 33% could make your mix soupy.


----------



## kratos015 (Mar 8, 2019)

My last batch of no-till lasted me a good 3 years until I had to start over. My veggies are loving the old no-till soil pots, but I had to make a new batch because the weed wasn't liking how compacted the soil was becoming. 

I've since started taking it a little easy on the compost when I make new batches of soil. I've been putting more peat and perlite into my mix than compost, something like 12cuft peat/12cuft perlite/8cuft compost. My reasoning is that eventually the peat and amendments will become compost over time, so if I used even 1:1:1 ratios then eventually I have more compost in the mix than I do peat and perlite so I inevitably suffer from soil compaction. Been working pretty awesome for me so far.


----------



## CanadianDank (Mar 8, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thanks for sharing your mix man !
> 
> I've been on the lookout for what sort of nutrients/amendments i should be adding.
> 
> ...


Man you don't need to follow an exact recipe, you can tweak it according to what's available in your area for sure.
Why don't you post what you have so far and we can maybe offer some suggestions on what to add to help complete it.


----------



## IIReignManII (Mar 9, 2019)

CanadianDank said:


> Man you don't need to follow an exact recipe, you can tweak it according to what's available in your area for sure.
> Why don't you post what you have so far and we can maybe offer some suggestions on what to add to help complete it.


Totally...thats what I did, I used all Espoma stuff cause thats all I had locally.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Mar 9, 2019)

CanadianDank said:


> Man you don't need to follow an exact recipe, you can tweak it according to what's available in your area for sure.
> Why don't you post what you have so far and we can maybe offer some suggestions on what to add to help complete it.


Thanks for the reply man, id be stoked if you can help me mix something.

At the moment i can source ( Alfalfa Meal, Bone Meal, Micronized Azomite, Gypsum, Kelp, Blood meal, Garden Lime & Mycos from *Link* )

I can also get hold of ( Basalt Rock Dust , Biochar, Calcitic Lime, Crushed oyster shells , Dolomite lime, Fulvic acid powder, humic acid granular, insect frass, soft rock phosphate, Zeolite, Volcanic rock dust, Efficient Microbes EM-Pro *Link* , organic fertilizer blends *Link* , *Link *)

I have also made my own Lacto Bacillus recently which i can use in the mix.


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## kratos015 (Mar 9, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thanks for the reply man, id be stoked if you can help me mix something.
> 
> At the moment i can source ( Alfalfa Meal, Bone Meal, Micronized Azomite, Gypsum, Kelp, Blood meal, Garden Lime & Mycos from *Link* )
> 
> ...


How much soil are you trying to make? Just remember, less is more. Crab, Neem, and Kelp meal could almost be considered a holy trinity for making your own soil. Those 3 ingredients + a mineral amendment of some kind are really all you need, aside from Lime of course. Makes things simple and affordable. I see you can source Basalt and Volcanic Rock Dust, I'd grab both and do a 3:1 ratio of Basalt:Rock Dust. If you can't/don't want to get the Crab and Neem Meals, the Alfalfa and Blood meals can be substituted for the Neem Meal and the Bone Meal can replace the Crab Meal. Just need to be cautious because those ingredients can burn, where as Crab/Neem will not.

There are no "strict" requirements, it's really just about whatever is local, cheap, and/or convenient. I live out in the middle of nowhere, so Amazon is my only source. I've been omitting the Crab Meal in favor of the frass for a source of Chitin. My well water is incredibly hard, calcifies the crap out of everything. So I had to eliminate the Crab Meal, Oyster Shell Flour, and Gypsum because my water is effectively my liming agent and my water plus all of those amendments with Calcium in them was causing me problems.

You may not be able to get Neem Meal locally, but it's incredible stuff for a wide variety of reasons. IPM and great NPK, always worth the money. Neem also doesn't run the risk of burn like the Alfalfa and Blood Meals do. I just spent $18 on a 5lb bag on Amazon that was enough to amend ~1.5 cu.yd. of soil, or a little over 300g. The last few runs I've also been getting pre-blended mixes from either Dr Earth or Down to Earth because they're made with a variety of amendments instead of me having to buy them all separately. 

My latest batch of outdoor soil was made with what was available to me. Amended the soil with Down to Earth's Citrus Mix, Neem, Kelp and Azomite for veg. In another 3 months I'll start top dressing with Guano and Dr Earth's Life mix.

As long as your soil has good compost, proper aeration/drainage, and a steady supply of organic fertilizer then you're ready to rock and roll.


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## hillbill (Mar 9, 2019)

IIReignManII said:


> Totally...thats what I did, I used all Espoma stuff cause thats all I had locally.


Espoma is a fine company and you can easily find all that’s needed to grow knockout herb in their line.


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## SouthernSoil* (Mar 9, 2019)

kratos015 said:


> How much soil are you trying to make? Just remember, less is more. Crab, Neem, and Kelp meal could almost be considered a holy trinity for making your own soil. Those 3 ingredients + a mineral amendment of some kind are really all you need, aside from Lime of course. Makes things simple and affordable. I see you can source Basalt and Volcanic Rock Dust, I'd grab both and do a 3:1 ratio of Basalt:Rock Dust. If you can't/don't want to get the Crab and Neem Meals, the Alfalfa and Blood meals can be substituted for the Neem Meal and the Bone Meal can replace the Crab Meal. Just need to be cautious because those ingredients can burn, where as Crab/Neem will not.
> 
> There are no "strict" requirements, it's really just about whatever is local, cheap, and/or convenient. I live out in the middle of nowhere, so Amazon is my only source. I've been omitting the Crab Meal in favor of the frass for a source of Chitin. My well water is incredibly hard, calcifies the crap out of everything. So I had to eliminate the Crab Meal, Oyster Shell Flour, and Gypsum because my water is effectively my liming agent and my water plus all of those amendments with Calcium in them was causing me problems.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the reply Kratos,

Im currently mixing about 20 gallons of base. It seems crab meal is pretty rare over here aswell but as you said bone meal should work too i just have to be pretty gentle with the servings. The only neem i have access is to is neem leaf powder, i take it you were talking about neem seed meal ? Will definitely grab some of the basalt think i still might have some volcanic rock powder left over.

I take it i wont have a problem with these amendments using reverse osmosis water ?

Wish i had local access to neem meal but looks like i will have to import it aswell. I have also heard many good things about it. 

Thanks man.


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## hillbill (Mar 9, 2019)

Alfalfa meal is a base of many organic fertilizers as is bone meal and they can cover a lot of your N and P and micros. Available most places and a blenderturns pellets to meal again if needed.


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## kratos015 (Mar 9, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Appreciate the reply Kratos,
> 
> Im currently mixing about 20 gallons of base. It seems crab meal is pretty rare over here aswell but as you said bone meal should work too i just have to be pretty gentle with the servings. The only neem i have access is to is neem leaf powder, i take it you were talking about neem seed meal ? Will definitely grab some of the basalt think i still might have some volcanic rock powder left over.
> 
> ...


Yeah, Crab/Crustacean Meal is something I've always had to source from Amazon personally. Bone Meal will totally work, but unless you're getting a killer deal on it I'd recommend sourcing the Crab Meal from the internet if it is within your budget. 3-16-0 is a ton of Phosphorus and your microbes will appreciate a lighter source of Phosphorus such as the Crab/Crustacean Meal or even a 0-5-0 Bat Guano.

I was looking into the Crab Meal on Amazon for you and came across this

https://www.amazon.com/BuildASoil-Craft-Blend-Nutrient-Pack/dp/B01M4FASNT/ref=sr_1_4?keywords=crustacean+meal&qid=1552184603&s=lawn-garden&sr=1-4

Pretty amazing deal and should be more than enough to amend 20 gallons of soil. $17 with 2 day shipping (if you have Prime) and this has literally everything you could possibly need in terms of amendments. Do you have a good source of compost handy? The compost is what will make or break your soil.

You should be totally fine using RO water with whatever amendments you choose though.

Glad to be of service.


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## IIReignManII (Mar 9, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Espoma is a fine company and you can easily find all that’s needed to grow knockout herb in their line.


I also really love the zippers on their bags...and the Bio-Tone is some great stuff...you could arguably get by on that alone with a cheap potting mix and probably grow some decent smoke for dirt cheap.


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## hillbill (Mar 10, 2019)

IIReignManII said:


> I also really love the zippers on their bags...and the Bio-Tone is some great stuff...you could arguably get by on that alone with a cheap potting mix and probably grow some decent smoke for dirt cheap.


I did 10 years ago with Garden Tone! Bought 66% off end of season. That was it with Promix and Mushroom Compost!
Norton products are available down the hill and they tend to grind some of their stuff extremely fine which we like.


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## WeedFreak78 (Mar 10, 2019)

I throw a couple handfuls of garden tone in my recycles, mainly for the diversity of beneficials. It's got Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus megaterium and Bacillus pumilus in it. All shown to increase crop sizes and improve disease resistance, not specifically in cannabis, but I figure it can't hurt.


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## IIReignManII (Mar 10, 2019)

kratos015 said:


> How much soil are you trying to make? Just remember, less is more. Crab, Neem, and Kelp meal could almost be considered a holy trinity for making your own soil. Those 3 ingredients + a mineral amendment of some kind are really all you need, aside from Lime of course. Makes things simple and affordable. I see you can source Basalt and Volcanic Rock Dust, I'd grab both and do a 3:1 ratio of Basalt:Rock Dust. If you can't/don't want to get the Crab and Neem Meals, the Alfalfa and Blood meals can be substituted for the Neem Meal and the Bone Meal can replace the Crab Meal. Just need to be cautious because those ingredients can burn, where as Crab/Neem will not.
> 
> There are no "strict" requirements, it's really just about whatever is local, cheap, and/or convenient. I live out in the middle of nowhere, so Amazon is my only source. I've been omitting the Crab Meal in favor of the frass for a source of Chitin. My well water is incredibly hard, calcifies the crap out of everything. So I had to eliminate the Crab Meal, Oyster Shell Flour, and Gypsum because my water is effectively my liming agent and my water plus all of those amendments with Calcium in them was causing me problems.
> 
> ...


On the other end of the spectrum, just to show how open ended this stuff is as far as recipes, I used 0 crab or neem, mostly because I couldn't find any. The same could be achieved with blood for nitrogen, bone for P, and alfalfa and kelp to round it out with growth hormones and potassium


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## Mohican (Mar 10, 2019)

Government is taking comments on de-scheduling cannabis:

https://www.regulations.gov/documen...vOa3fzHhTzoWlkG2bplZ-FeevibJrnlSA8Nzu5Kv-Z0lg

Send comments by 3-14!!!


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## SouthernSoil* (Mar 10, 2019)

kratos015 said:


> Yeah, Crab/Crustacean Meal is something I've always had to source from Amazon personally. Bone Meal will totally work, but unless you're getting a killer deal on it I'd recommend sourcing the Crab Meal from the internet if it is within your budget. 3-16-0 is a ton of Phosphorus and your microbes will appreciate a lighter source of Phosphorus such as the Crab/Crustacean Meal or even a 0-5-0 Bat Guano.
> 
> I was looking into the Crab Meal on Amazon for you and came across this
> 
> ...


I can source bone meal for next to nothing over here but from what you saying it seems crab meal is too good to be left out ! Guano is readily available here so wont have any problem sourcing that.

I had a look at the link although for some odd reason amazon wants to charge about 400$ for shipping.that kind of stuff, same thing happened when i tried to order green sand. I will have to do some more searching, i did however stumble across a post where a person dried & crushed up their own crustacean/shellfish, possibly an option ?

I unfortunately dont have any compost on hand, open to any suggestions on that man.

Thanks again


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## kratos015 (Mar 10, 2019)

SouthernSoil* said:


> I can source bone meal for next to nothing over here but from what you saying it seems crab meal is too good to be left out ! Guano is readily available here so wont have any problem sourcing that.
> 
> I had a look at the link although for some odd reason amazon wants to charge about 400$ for shipping.that kind of stuff, same thing happened when i tried to order green sand. I will have to do some more searching, i did however stumble across a post where a person dried & crushed up their own crustacean/shellfish, possibly an option ?
> 
> ...


Crab Meal (like Neem and Kelp meal) is so wonderful and highly recommended because they are single ingredient amendments that do a wide variety of different things. They also don't burn, so you don't need to let it "cook" like you do with Blood/Bone/Alfalfa Meals or Guano. 

The Crab Meal is a good, steady, and light supply of macro and micro nutrients as well as IPM in the form of chitin. Only reason I'm not using it anymore is because I can't afford an RO set up and well water is all I've got, so I have to get rid of any amendments with Calcium in them. Since you're using RO water you won't have this issue. I use 0-5-0 Guano and Insect Frass in it's place, but as you can see it takes me 2 amendments to give similar results as to what the Crab Meal does alone. That is the main benefit of Crab Meal, just means you have to spend less money/source less products.

Are you not from the US or something? Maybe that's why the shipping is so absurdly high because I linked from Amazon.com instead of Amazon.ca? I have no idea on that one. All you have to do to get Prime 2 day shipping is sign up for the free trial, then cancel it immediately. You'll get a free month of Prime, and you can create as many fake emails to do this infinitely. I mainly recommended the Build a Soil blend because it has everything you could possibly need and only sets you back ~$20. Simple, convenient, and affordable. 

You can absolutely grind up your own crustacean shells though once they've dried out, be it crab, lobster, or shrimp. Add the dust to your soil, compost pile, or worm bin and you're set. It's just that making your own is significantly more costly than buying it, unless you know of places you can get the shells for cheap/free then buying it will be cheaper and easier.

Not having compost is going to be an issue, without compost you have nothing but dirt. Fortunately, you only need 20g of soil so that makes things somewhat easy as you'll only need 1cu.ft. of compost, aeration, and peat/coco. 

You'll have to scope out your local hardware stores and/or their websites to see what they have on hand, or you can source it from Amazon if you get Prime shipping. 

If you're willing to spend the money, Amazon sells a 1 cu.ft. bag of Coast of Maine's Lobster Compost for ~$27 with free Prime Shipping. In the 7+ years I've been doing organics, CoM's Lobster Compost is the absolute best compost I've ever dealt with. Only reason I didn't get it was because I needed 12 cuft of compost, and 12 x $27 was way out of my budget. My local hardware store had bags of Black Gold compost for $8/cuft so that was my best option. 

My recommendation is getting the Lobster Compost, since you only need 1cuft and your plants will love you for using that stuff. Your other options are to take a look at what your local hardware stores and nurseries have. I got pretty lucky finding the Black Gold product at Ace Hardware, Home Depot/Lowes typically sell crap from Scotts/Miracle Gro and I recommend avoiding those like the plague. Craigslist is also another option, you may find someone selling either compost or worm castings. I don't recommend buying worm castings online, it's usually mediocre at best. If you're looking at buying compost online, CoM's Lobster Compost all the way.

Sorry for the long winded reply, I hope it was useful to you.


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## hillbill (Mar 10, 2019)

Kelp4less on EBay is sorurce fo lots of organics with decent prices. Mushroom compost and some sort of composted cow manure should be available in bags.


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## Chronikool (Mar 10, 2019)

'LA S.A.G.E' on day 62 (Harvest) in ROLS


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## hillbill (Mar 11, 2019)

hillbill said:


> I did 10 years ago with Garden Tone! Bought 66% off end of season. That was it with Promix and Mushroom Compost!
> Norton products are available down the hill and they tend to grind some of their stuff extremely fine which we like.


NITRON PRODUCTS —-Automatic writing aginn


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## Mohican (Mar 11, 2019)

Many landscaping companies have compost.


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## Chronikool (Mar 12, 2019)

'Blurkool' on Day 47 in ROLS


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## DonPetro (Mar 17, 2019)

I've missed you all so much!


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## DonBrennon (Mar 17, 2019)

DonPetro said:


> I've missed you all so much!


Good to see ya back around DP, sadly I've gone back to the dark side, hydro/coco just suits my lifestyle & space better


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## Chronikool (Mar 29, 2019)

LA S.A.G.E on day 52 (foxtailing a bit) in ROLS


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## Cherkan (Mar 30, 2019)

Anyone have any ideas for re-amending year old unused "coots mix". It's your basic base with 1/3 of each Sphagnum/Castings/Scoria & Rice Hull. Original amendments were;

4/5th cup Kelp, Neem, Gypsum, Oyster Shell, 8 Cup Basalt, 9 3/5 cup Bio-Char and 1 3/5 cup MBP.

It's only had one cycle through it and was left for a year while I was away. Is there a way start some life in the pot (15 gallon) in time for next spring (6 months time). Was thinking of running a neem/kelp/casting top dress, watering that in and then throwing down a green manure crop over the winter. Anything else I should consider?


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## kkt3 (Apr 1, 2019)

GMM reammended his soil with approximately 10% compost and 5% ewc.



Cherkan said:


> Anyone have any ideas for re-amending year old unused "coots mix". It's your basic base with 1/3 of each Sphagnum/Castings/Scoria & Rice Hull. Original amendments were;
> 
> 4/5th cup Kelp, Neem, Gypsum, Oyster Shell, 8 Cup Basalt, 9 3/5 cup Bio-Char and 1 3/5 cup MBP.
> 
> It's only had one cycle through it and was left for a year while I was away. Is there a way start some life in the pot (15 gallon) in time for next spring (6 months time). Was thinking of running a neem/kelp/casting top dress, watering that in and then throwing down a green manure crop over the winter. Anything else I should consider?


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## Chronikool (Apr 19, 2019)

'Blurkool' on day 32 in ROLS


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## hillbill (Apr 19, 2019)

Rice is grown within 150 miles here and no one stocks them, freight is $27 on $18 bale!


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## Diesel0889 (Apr 21, 2019)

Hey guys I figure I may get a decent reply here. Has anyone used clay pebbles for aeiration In a coot style mix (same base) was going to try this and I know some have done it with success but I want to set it and forget it and reuse it in same bed ammending between cycles etc. From what I gather from the company that makes it it would work just fine. Also any recommendation on breaking some up to smaller pieces and leaving more pores exposed for the life to dwell in my soil? Anything regarding this is appreciated. Happy growing!


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## barszczyk (Apr 22, 2019)

Hey guys, i just start my living organics grow after few years of korean natural farming. I have one question about cover cropp/live mulch. Do you think that alfafla is good idea as cover crop/mulch or better go with clover?


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## outliergenetix (Apr 23, 2019)

hey this may be slightly off topic for this thread but i think it fits so here we go.
a good while ago i accumulated a nice compost pile of scraps, leaves and woody substances and at this point it isnt cooking or anything been super dark compost for at least a year just in a pile. actually grass is even growing over it like a mound this spring but it's all loose like a pile still mainly.
anyway i never used this as i had a mite infestation last summer that i have erradicated and been smooth sailing for cpl runs but i kep thinking how can i use this outdoor compost indoors without introducing pests big time. i don't wanna patuerize it really and i don't realy know of any other ways other than a cpl spinosad soks maybe on the screened patio before bringing it in or something like that
any really experienced soil guys have an opinion on whethr attempting this is even worth it. if so what method or precations would you suggest. i'm even afraid to make teas with it tbh as i know ;larvae and eggs won't die off and i'd be pouring bug sauce on my plants. i also considered buying predatory insects and introducing them to the pile while it sits on a screend patio, but while that has some merit it won't totally erradicate them.
things i don't really want to do
1. use DE as a top dress
2. have to incorporate some serious IPM regimine beyond what i alread do which is really not mush other than foliar spray in veg and put neem meal in my top dressings. i don't want to use DE because i recycle my soil and if i keep top dressing it will eventually throw off my mix, make it like clay


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## hillbill (Apr 23, 2019)

I wouldn’t even think about using it inside, find something else to use it for and start a worm farm if you don’t have one. Please consider the possible outcomes in a cost, benefit and risk basis. Seems the risk factor is the heavyweight here. Go find some high quality compost wi5h known results. 
The worry alone would be a buzzkill.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 23, 2019)

hillbill said:


> I wouldn’t even think about using it inside, find something else to use it for and start a worm farm if you don’t have one. Please consider the possible outcomes in a cost, benefit and risk basis. Seems the risk factor is the heavyweight here. Go find some high quality compost wi5h known results.
> The worry alone would be a buzzkill.


you are basically saying what i already was saying i felt. i posted this to see if i was wrong. i literally had subcool tell me "not to fear nature but understand it" when i said i was too scared to use outdoor soil indoor. while i realize he is a polarizing figure i figured i would see if maybe my fear was unfounded, thus i made this post. according to you tho we are on the same page.

as for worm bin this is what i am starting already indoors using my soil mix in a tote and i throw food scraps like egg shells and banana peels in there as well as cannabis leaves and root balls.


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## hillbill (Apr 23, 2019)

A year and a half with one and they make a lot of vermicompost once they get going, and don’t forget to add grit. I give it away and use it outdoors also in my containers. Great stuff! I was also surprised how easy harvest has been using light to chase them down.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 23, 2019)

hillbill said:


> A year and a half with one and they make a lot of vermicompost once they get going, and don’t forget to add grit. I give it away and use it outdoors also in my containers. Great stuff! I was also surprised how easy harvest has been using light to chase them down.


yea i watched an incredible video, it was not red wrigglers he was an earth worm farmer but this guys feed explainations were epic. and yes he emphasised grit. i think the crushed eggsshells help but also i use my soil mix from pots as i said and i have azomite and stuff like that in there to. he used some type of meal i think
i eat allot of eggs. like allot. same with bananas


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## Dryxi (Apr 23, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> you are basically saying what i already was saying i felt. i posted this to see if i was wrong. i literally had subcool tell me "not to fear nature but understand it" when i said i was too scared to use outdoor soil indoor. while i realize he is a polarizing figure i figured i would see if maybe my fear was unfounded, thus i made this post. according to you tho we are on the same page.
> 
> as for worm bin this is what i am starting already indoors using my soil mix in a tote and i throw food scraps like egg shells and banana peels in there as well as cannabis leaves and root balls.


What pests are you scared of bringing inside from your compost? Most pests need live plants to be a pest to cannabis, and a compost pile (minus grass growing in it) isnt going to be holding much in the way of pests such as thrips, spider mites, etc. Soil pests are not a real problem in compost unless it's not healthy compost (anaerobic etc.)

I have used compost from outside in my tent plenty of times, never found an increase in pests. The ROLS in general helps to control pests and healthy compost isnt going to be holding terribly many. IMO (dont blame me if you do it and find you introduced a pest lol it is possible) but I found that bringing actual plants indoors is way way worse than bringing compost indoors. I never spray anything on the compost prior to bringing it inside either. The compost has an ecosystem going on as well (good bugs/microbes vs bad bugs/microbes)


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## outliergenetix (Apr 23, 2019)

Dryxi said:


> What pests are you scared of bringing inside from your compost? Most pests need live plants to be a pest to cannabis, and a compost pile (minus grass growing in it) isnt going to be holding much in the way of pests such as thrips, spider mites, etc. Soil pests are not a real problem in compost unless it's not healthy compost (anaerobic etc.)
> 
> I have used compost from outside in my tent plenty of times, never found an increase in pests. The ROLS in general helps to control pests and healthy compost isnt going to be holding terribly many. IMO (dont blame me if you do it and find you introduced a pest lol it is possible) but I found that bringing actual plants indoors is way way worse than bringing compost indoors. I never spray anything on the compost prior to bringing it inside either. The compost has an ecosystem going on as well (good bugs/microbes vs bad bugs/microbes)


well mainly mites as i lost everyuthing i had including moms to an ongoing fight with them a year ago. i never had pests in my life, i think i got those because i started a garden outdoors again and would often work out there then come in and tend my cannabis in th ebasement. i am pretty sure i carried the mites on my clothes etc... the compost pile is near this garden area so i am concerned about mites namley as they are super hard to eradicate once you see webs. spotting it late was on me as i saw the signs but kept looking under leaves and misidentifying the black dots as dirt splatter due to the not moving at all. not as woreed about pests who complete their life cycle underground as i am mites


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## ShLUbY (Apr 23, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> hey this may be slightly off topic for this thread but i think it fits so here we go.
> a good while ago i accumulated a nice compost pile of scraps, leaves and woody substances and at this point it isnt cooking or anything been super dark compost for at least a year just in a pile. actually grass is even growing over it like a mound this spring but it's all loose like a pile still mainly.
> anyway i never used this as i had a mite infestation last summer that i have erradicated and been smooth sailing for cpl runs but i kep thinking how can i use this outdoor compost indoors without introducing pests big time. i don't wanna patuerize it really and i don't realy know of any other ways other than a cpl spinosad soks maybe on the screened patio before bringing it in or something like that
> any really experienced soil guys have an opinion on whethr attempting this is even worth it. if so what method or precations would you suggest. i'm even afraid to make teas with it tbh as i know ;larvae and eggs won't die off and i'd be pouring bug sauce on my plants. i also considered buying predatory insects and introducing them to the pile while it sits on a screend patio, but while that has some merit it won't totally erradicate them.
> ...


i've used cold compost in my grown a bunch of times with no issues. i personally don't really see what the big deal is. as hillbill said, you can use your compost to start a worm bin and they will further process it and take care of any issues that may be there... but if nothing has been growing in the pile I wouldn't really worry about pests. plant pests live on plants outdoors... that's how they make their living. Decomposers will reside in your compost pile.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 24, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> i've used cold compost in my grown a bunch of times with no issues. i personally don't really see what the big deal is. as hillbill said, you can use your compost to start a worm bin and they will further process it and take care of any issues that may be there... but if nothing has been growing in the pile I wouldn't really worry about pests. plant pests live on plants outdoors... that's how they make their living. Decomposers will reside in your compost pile.


yea i do see both sides. it's hard because if i'm worng or unlucky i gotta re-live that nightmare lol. maybe i'll bring some on the patio or predatory mites and worms and let them process it indorrs for the summer then in the winter try it in a closet grow apart from everything especially stuff in veg. or maybe i'll just use that outdoors for vegies idk. my soil mix is dialed in good now but i just needed a lil xtra organic material as i recycle and re-ammend it, but i havent added castings or compost in a while just down to earth single ingredient stuff between grows and some top dressing
thanks for sharing your experience.


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## hillbill (Apr 24, 2019)

Worm farms are really awesome. Couple months ago I had centipedes and more than a few. I applied diatomaceous earth and reduced that to an occasional sighting of a sick centipede and whiteish curled up exoskeletons. The worms multiplied right thru that.

Something I have used in every batch or reammending mix is Cotton Burr Compost from Back To Nature. Adds structure and moisture holding properties and has some nutes as well. Tried other brands, forget it.


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## ShLUbY (Apr 24, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> yea i do see both sides. it's hard because if i'm worng or unlucky i gotta re-live that nightmare lol. maybe i'll bring some on the patio or predatory mites and worms and let them process it indorrs for the summer then in the winter try it in a closet grow apart from everything especially stuff in veg. or maybe i'll just use that outdoors for vegies idk. my soil mix is dialed in good now but i just needed a lil xtra organic material as i recycle and re-ammend it, but i havent added castings or compost in a while just down to earth single ingredient stuff between grows and some top dressing
> thanks for sharing your experience.


yeah i mean really there's no need to add extra OM at recycle. the roots are OM, so are the amendments, the biology, the topdressings, the mulches... lots of OM inputs. Unless of course you need to inoculate some MO. But you can always do compost extract or brew AACT.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 24, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i mean really there's no need to add extra OM at recycle. the roots are OM, so are the amendments, the biology, the topdressings, the mulches... lots of OM inputs. Unless of course you need to inoculate some MO. But you can always do compost extract or brew AACT.


yea but i use coco instead of moss in my cooots style mix. so i add organic matter like a little compost and a castings to it as well as the ammendments and grokashi etc.. you still think i wouldnt need to add organic matter? i kinda feel like adding it is a buffer for micro nutes i may be missing or depleted
btw i dont add much of the compost or castings really as i dont use any aeration like perlite. i decided to try and find the perfect balance of drainage and retention using the perfect amount of coca and going light on other organic mater and ammending as stated


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## ShLUbY (Apr 24, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> yea but i use coco instead of moss in my cooots style mix. so i add organic matter like a little compost and a castings to it as well as the ammendments and grokashi etc.. you still think i wouldnt need to add organic matter? i kinda feel like adding it is a buffer for micro nutes i may be missing or depleted
> btw i dont add much of the compost or castings really as i dont use any aeration like perlite. i decided to try and find the perfect balance of drainage and retention using the perfect amount of coca and going light on other organic mater and ammending as stated


ok right on, you have a different style of organic soil for sure. using any worms in your mixes? if you're using rock dusts your micro nutes are pretty well covered. are you leaving your roots in the soil when you recycle it? Do you add back canna leaves as a mulch or dry, grind to powder, and use as an amendment? returning cannabis plant matter back to the soil IMO is one of the best ways to cycle nutrients because the plant pulled them from the mix... so adding them back can only be beneficial


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## Resin_pheasant (Apr 24, 2019)

headtreep said:


> This is one of my current mixes I'm using. I still have some other mixes going as well with more ingredients but I truly believe that this is a great start for everyone that is very reasonably priced. I used to amend commerical soils until I got enlighten.
> 
> Soil Base - Per Cubic Foot
> 
> ...


For the amendment mixes you give the measurement but for what unit. Cup per gallon? Or cups per what? Please lmk. Thank you.


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## ShLUbY (Apr 24, 2019)

Resin_pheasant said:


> For the amendment mixes you give the measurement but for what unit. Cup per gallon? Or cups per what? Please lmk. Thank you.


probably per cubic foot (7.5gal of base mix).


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## Dryxi (Apr 24, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> yea i do see both sides. it's hard because if i'm worng or unlucky i gotta re-live that nightmare lol. maybe i'll bring some on the patio or predatory mites and worms and let them process it indorrs for the summer then in the winter try it in a closet grow apart from everything especially stuff in veg. or maybe i'll just use that outdoors for vegies idk. my soil mix is dialed in good now but i just needed a lil xtra organic material as i recycle and re-ammend it, but i havent added castings or compost in a while just down to earth single ingredient stuff between grows and some top dressing
> thanks for sharing your experience.


I have encountered spider mites twice in my grow journal on this site, once was out of control due to vacay, but both times (one big and one little) infestation were taken care of with predator mites. The big infestation killed the plants but I reused the same bed and soil, without cleaning the tent AT ALL, and had 0 issues on the following grow 15 days later. The grow I'm in currently got spidermites on the cover crop once spring started, literally days after I flipped to flower, and I used preds again (from Arbico) which are completely controlling the spider mites.

Introducing them either way, will be a big preventative later in the grow.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 24, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> ok right on, you have a different style of organic soil for sure. using any worms in your mixes? if you're using rock dusts your micro nutes are pretty well covered. are you leaving your roots in the soil when you recycle it? Do you add back canna leaves as a mulch or dry, grind to powder, and use as an amendment? returning cannabis plant matter back to the soil IMO is one of the best ways to cycle nutrients because the plant pulled them from the mix... so adding them back can only be beneficial


rock dust is actually not as good as ppl think. i watch allot of big ag and even small organic farmers non cannabis test various ammendments and rock dust did nothing. it is very very very slow release like years. i use azomite and langbenite tho.
i dont have worms in pots atm but i will once i start using soil from the bin as i am not after just castings. i also want to blatticompost with ivory head roaches for frass but im getting ahead of myself lol


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## outliergenetix (Apr 24, 2019)

Dryxi said:


> I have encountered spider mites twice in my grow journal on this site, once was out of control due to vacay, but both times (one big and one little) infestation were taken care of with predator mites. The big infestation killed the plants but I reused the same bed and soil, without cleaning the tent AT ALL, and had 0 issues on the following grow 15 days later. The grow I'm in currently got spidermites on the cover crop once spring started, literally days after I flipped to flower, and I used preds again (from Arbico) which are completely controlling the spider mites.
> 
> Introducing them either way, will be a big preventative later in the grow.


what you say is likely the case, but in my case i had mites for several runs till i realized it. if i didnt say already i thought i had mites from the speckles on the leaves but i was also transitioning from hydro to soil and thought i had lock out or deficiency even tho all signs pointed to mites. reason is i looked on back of leaves saw the brown specs and i would touch em and they didnt move so i said maybe its dirt splatter and just kept trying to adjust feeding. long story short one morning i went down there and my entire canopy was covered in webs and i could see em crawling everywhere i was shocked. i had to kill everythign syeralize the basement and i have been using closets for 6months upstairs hoping anything i missed died off or moved on. atm i have my first flowering batch in that room, so far sao good week 5. but i still keep veg plants up stairs i dont bring anything down there back upstairs near my veg/moms and clones. i only put stuff down there after i clone now till i feel comfortable they are gone for good
i probably will add predators to my ipm tho


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## outliergenetix (Apr 24, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Worm farms are really awesome. Couple months ago I had centipedes and more than a few. I applied diatomaceous earth and reduced that to an occasional sighting of a sick centipede and whiteish curled up exoskeletons. The worms multiplied right thru that.
> 
> Something I have used in every batch or reammending mix is Cotton Burr Compost from Back To Nature. Adds structure and moisture holding properties and has some nutes as well. Tried other brands, forget it.


interesting i never heard of cotton burr. thanks ill look into it


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## outliergenetix (Apr 24, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah i mean really there's no need to add extra OM at recycle. the roots are OM, so are the amendments, the biology, the topdressings, the mulches... lots of OM inputs. Unless of course you need to inoculate some MO. But you can always do compost extract or brew AACT.


yes i process my root balls right into the next run uncomposted as there is soluble plant avain N on nodules on roots the plant hasnt used and other plants can use it. idk where i learned that but it was not a cannabis site. i foget what the nodules are called but there is allot of immediatly avail nutes the dead plant didnt use on roots
i believe i learned this from a no till book. it is why they cut down the plant not uproot it. the only thing is dont do this if the plant had root problems


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## ShLUbY (Apr 24, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> yes i process my root balls right into the next run uncomposted as there is soluble plant avain N on nodules on roots the plant hasnt used and other plants can use it. idk where i learned that but it was not a cannabis site. i foget what the nodules are called but there is allot of immediatly avail nutes the dead plant didnt use on roots
> i believe i learned this from a no till book. it is why they cut down the plant not uproot it. the only thing is dont do this if the plant had root problems


not sure if that process happens in the cannabis plant roots... in the N fixing plants like legumes and clovers that associate with rhizobia bacteria, yes. that is the nodule forming process. but the cannabis roots are good to recycle in the mix as they already contain nutrients, growth hormones, and lots of other goodies like proteins and carbohydrates. cheers


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## hillbill (Apr 24, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> not sure if that process happens in the cannabis plant roots... in the N fixing plants like legumes and clovers that associate with rhizobia bacteria, yes. that is the nodule forming process. but the cannabis roots are good to recycle in the mix as they already contain nutrients, growth hormones, and lots of other goodies like proteins and carbohydrates. cheers


Always surprised how fast root remains “disappear” in my used mix tote. Sifted usedmix starts my seeds and used mix is 40% to 70% of “new” mix, depending on my supply as I use it fo herbs and ornamentals also. More roots and plant waste goes to worm bin. Worms take a little longer on stems.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 24, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> not sure if that process happens in the cannabis plant roots... in the N fixing plants like legumes and clovers that associate with rhizobia bacteria, yes. that is the nodule forming process. but the cannabis roots are good to recycle in the mix as they already contain nutrients, growth hormones, and lots of other goodies like proteins and carbohydrates. cheers


huh, i never considered it was plant specific, this is why i like forums always get info to look into. thanks. i'll have to look into that myself now, but as you said it is a benefit either way, i just thought there was some immediate N from the nodules things
update, yup you are right. it is trees shrubs, some cover crops and legumes. i musta misread or misremembered it. it seems i was right about no-till being where i got it as it was prolly talking about cover crops.


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## ShLUbY (Apr 24, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Always surprised how fast root remains “disappear” in my used mix tote. Sifted usedmix starts my seeds and used mix is 40% to 70% of “new” mix, depending on my supply as I use it fo herbs and ornamentals also. More roots and plant waste goes to worm bin. Worms take a little longer on stems.


I often find balls of aggregated root material in my recycling composter that I use to mix my soils. They're bound together with that nice microbial glue we all rely on so much. by 4 weeks time, they are a ball of black organic matter that crumbles easily when handled. so cool!


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

So I’m looking to start my organic no-till bed in a 3x3 foot tent. 

I’m going to be using this container 
https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07QGSCCQC/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_3p_dp_i1
It should hold between 60-75 gallons of soil, but I am wondering how much aeration I will need? I’ve read as high as 33%, and as low as 10-20%. 

Also, is there a better alternative to perlite?

I’m in Canada if that makes a difference, and perlite is going to cost me $1 a litre ($4 a gallon), unless I find a cheaper source!


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## outliergenetix (Apr 28, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> So I’m looking to start my organic no-till bed in a 3x3 foot tent.
> 
> I’m going to be using this container
> https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B07QGSCCQC/ref=pe_3034960_236394800_TE_3p_dp_i1
> ...


well im not a fan of perlite and if you are no-till or recycling soil i recommend not using perlite or vermiculite etc. im sure some ppl will chime in and sayy rice hulls etc, but i havn't used them plus they will break down over time and then you have the taskk of keeping up with the right viablle ratio, just my opnion. i am also sure ppl will disagree with what i do mysell which is use my own variation of a basic coots mix, but i use coco instead of peat or shagnum. here is how and why. on it's own coco is basically the perfect medium water retention and for ph. i basically use really high grade organic compost and castings, not commercial castings fed shit or store bought compost. ik what is in my compost and it's allot of coffe, bannas egg shells as well as my chopped fan leaves etc among whatever else i eat that is compostable, worm casting the same. store bought castins are fed an undiverse diet. anyway i needed to make this point because the idea is to use as little organic matter as possible yet still have enough food, microbes etc and balanced for micros etc... i cannot give you an exact ratio but it's possible 50% or more coco, th result is a very dark rich yet fluffy mix that holds water and air grea even in small or fabric pots that in the past i've had to water frequently with other mixes. to this base i also mix in bokashi, azomite, langbenite, alphalpha meel, neem meal, kelp meal as well as some guanos i use 3 kinds of guano with diff NPK, however i don't put a ton in the mix as it is largely soluble. the other part of the regiment is nute tea as needed not often at all and/or top dress when you up-pot. i use diff top dress ratios of the mentioned DTE single ingredient nutes(alphalpha, kelp and guanos) and which guano depends on if it is veg or flower but always a bit of the others to maintain microbe diversity. i never water with a true compost tea as that also will throw off microbes not simply add more like ppl say/think. you can spray compost tea on leaves in veg tho for overall health, but don't foliar the nute tea it will slow root growth. this is pretty much what i do in a nutshell it may sound liek allot or confusing but it really isn't. i do this becasue it is easy once it is made. i keep huge 100 gallon plastic bins and when i harvest i throw rootball and all back in there slightly reammend and mix. this last part has some nuance that would serve to confuse so i will leave it at that, but basically i sometimes don't re-ammend the entire bin but top dress the next wave, this is really on a case by case basis but you will get it.
to clarify a guano tea is a nute tea, a compost tea is well made with compost/castings and is about microbes not soluble nutes like nute tea. also to adjust the tea npk use othe DTE single ingredients based of need, just pay attention to the soluble unsoluble ratios and do the math


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> well im not a fan of perlite and if you are no-till or recycling soil i recommend not using perlite or vermiculite etc. im sure some ppl will chime in and sayy rice hulls etc, but i havn't used them plus they will break down over time and then you have the taskk of keeping up with the right viablle ratio, just my opnion. i am also sure ppl will disagree with what i do mysell which is use my own variation of a basic coots mix, but i use coco instead of peat or shagnum. here is how and why. on it's own coco is basically the perfect medium water retention and for ph. i basically use really high grade organic compost and castings, not commercial castings fed shit or store bought compost. ik what is in my compost and it's allot of coffe, bannas egg shells as well as my chopped fan leaves etc among whatever else i eat that is compostable, worm casting the same. store bought castins are fed an undiverse diet. anyway i needed to make this point because the idea is to use as little organic matter as possible yet still have enough food, microbes etc and balanced for micros etc... i cannot give you an exact ratio but it's possible 50% or more coco, th result is a very dark rich yet fluffy mix that holds water and air grea even in small or fabric pots that in the past i've had to water frequently with other mixes. to this base i also mix in bokashi, azomite, langbenite, alphalpha meel, neem meal, kelp meal as well as some guanos i use 3 kinds of guano with diff NPK, however i don't put a ton in the mix as it is largely soluble. the other part of the regiment is nute tea as needed not often at all and/or top dress when you up-pot. i use diff top dress ratios of the mentioned DTE single ingredient nutes(alphalpha, kelp and guanos) and which guano depends on if it is veg or flower but always a bit of the others to maintain microbe diversity. i never water with a true compost tea as that also will throw off microbes not simply add more like ppl say/think. you can spray compost tea on leaves in veg tho for overall health, but don't foliar the nute tea it will slow root growth. this is pretty much what i do in a nutshell it may sound liek allot or confusing but it really isn't. i do this becasue it is easy once it is made. i keep huge 100 gallon plastic bins and when i harvest i throw rootball and all back in there slightly reammend and mix. this last part has some nuance that would serve to confuse so i will leave it at that, but basically i sometimes don't re-ammend the entire bin but top dress the next wave, this is really on a case by case basis but you will get it.
> to clarify a guano tea is a nute tea, a compost tea is well made with compost/castings and is about microbes not soluble nutes like nute tea. also to adjust the tea npk use othe DTE single ingredients based of need, just pay attention to the soluble unsoluble ratios and do the math


Yeah I’m just wondering what aeration to use... And I’m no expert, but that’s definitely not no-till...

When you re-mix your soil and ammend it, you’re tilling the soil...

Interesting about coco, but I’m going to probably go with the traditional no-till route.

That said, anyone have ideas on what to do for the aeration in my mix?


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## outliergenetix (Apr 28, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> Yeah I’m just wondering what aeration to use... And I’m no expert, but that’s definitely not no-till...
> 
> When you re-mix your soil and ammend it, you’re tilling the soil...
> 
> ...


ummmm i didn't say i no-till and i explained what is the aeration, it is the excessive ratio of coco, trust me man ik what constitutes no till. i am not no-tilling because i am using small pots because i am doing male/female runs and multiple strains ect. what i am doing is called recyled organic soil and i said no-till OR recycling. anyway take or leave the advice but at least read it right
if you wanna no till than cover crop and/or top dress and do the same shit smh i am telling how i re-ammend instead of simply saying use coco for aeration and looking like an idiot


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> ummmm i didn't say i no-till and i explained what is the aeration, it is the excessive ratio of coco, trust me man ik what constitutes no till. i am not no-tilling because i am using small bots and doing male female runs and multiple strains ect. what i am doing is called recyled organic soil and i said no-till OR recycling. anyway take or leave the advice but at least read it right


No-till is specifically what I asked about, and you even said it in the first sentence of your response. Then you went on forever about something you’ve already posted about(which I had already read) and didn’t answer my question, you just told me what you do....great! 

Anyways... can anyone answer my original question? What is a good ratio for aeration? And perlite alternatives? Thanks!


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> if you wanna no till than cover crop and/or top dress and do the same shit smh i am telling how i re-ammend instead of simply saying use coco for aeration and looking like an idiot


You added in this second part afterwards, can you clarify a bit more? Instead of just saying “if you wanna do the same shit smh”

I was, in fact, going to do a no-till and incorporate some sort of cover crop/top dress/ use compost and worm casting teas.

By all means, if there’s an argument against this I’d love to hear why!


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## outliergenetix (Apr 28, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> No-till is specifically what I asked about, and you even said it in the first sentence of your response. Then you went on forever about something you’ve already posted about(which I had already read) and didn’t answer my question, you just told me what you do....great!
> 
> Anyways... can anyone answer my original question? What is a good ratio for aeration? And perlite alternatives? Thanks!


and i speciffically said how to do it if that is what you are doing. if you can't take that info and fit it into your no-till then you are correct "you are no expert' my guess is nobody is gonna answer you with your attitude. GL


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## SCJedi (Apr 28, 2019)

1/3 peat or coco, no additives
1/3 humate like good compost mixed w/ EWC
1/3 aeration pumice, Growstones, perlite, etc

I use this GS-1 as my aeration. If you are already going to the grow store they sell it in 1.5 cubic foot bags for about $25.

You can use lava in a pinch.


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## hillbill (Apr 28, 2019)

My aeration runs closer to 40% to 50% with white LEDs and COBs since they don't heat the soil mix and leaves near as much as hps or cmh did. Ran 30% to 35% then. I use SPM as a base. Been working at that level for several years. 

I use perlite and NAPA 8822 and recycled used mix is always over 50% of new mix. Pretty gravelly by harvest.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 28, 2019)

hillbill said:


> My aeration runs closer to 40% to 50% with white LEDs and COBs since they don't heat the soil mix and leaves near as much as hps or cmh did. Ran 30% to 35% then. I use SPM as a base. Been working at that level for several years.
> 
> I use perlite and NAPA 8822 and recycled used mix is always over 50% of new mix. Pretty gravelly by harvest.


he shouldn't use perlite in a true no-till tho as it will float to the top eventually. that's what i found annoying with perlite specifically. there are other smaller issues imo, but the floating to the top is the main one, i also don't like allot of runnoff and with that fabric pot it just isnt needed greatly imo. admittedly if you are after fast turn around and max yeild aeration the more the merryier is true, but if he is organic no-till those probably are not the priority.  and thansk for the like back there lol


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> and i speciffically said how to do it if that is what you are doing. if you can't take that info and fit it into your no-till then you are correct "you are no expert' my guess is nobody is gonna answer you with your attitude. GL


My attitude? Lol you didn’t answer my question... didnt mean anything by it bud, just wanted an answer more on topic.

BTW you still didn’t answer it lol, maybe one too many J’s?


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> 1/3 peat or coco, no additives
> 1/3 humate like good compost mixed w/ EWC
> 1/3 aeration pumice, Growstones, perlite, etc
> 
> ...


Thanks! I will look for these. And lava rock, you say? Is it inferior? I ask because you said I can use it “in a pinch” 

I’m in Canada and I find it can be hard to find the same products here, so any suggestions are helpful!


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## SCJedi (Apr 28, 2019)

Pumice is a lava stone. The red stuff you'd find at a big box store will be a bit too large and porous. I'd expect it to break down faster. My GS-1 has been used a whole season and it all still perfectly intact


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## hillbill (Apr 28, 2019)

I didn’t say I liked a lot of runoff, just some but my mixes seem very water friendly with such a ratio of well used mix. Small containers and plants in perpetual under LEDs. Variety is why I use perpetual methods and why I like beans. Also, clones do not exist in my world.


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

hillbill said:


> I didn’t say I liked a lot of runoff, just some but my mixes seem very water friendly with such a ratio of well used mix. Small containers and plants in perpetual under LEDs. Variety is why I use perpetual methods and why I like beans. Also, clones do not exist in my world.


No clones? Care to touch on why not?


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> Pumice is a lava stone. The red stuff you'd find at a big box store will be a bit too large and porous. I'd expect it to break down faster. My GS-1 has been used a whole season and it all still perfectly intact


How long should it last? I’ve heard of no-till gardens going on for 10+ years, what would they be using for aeration?


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## hillbill (Apr 28, 2019)

Lava rock in a mix would seem a good alternative to perlite in no till or containers not being moved. NAPA 8822 would be useful either way as it retains nutrients and provides drainage also. Sharp sand and gravel is great except for weight and I usually have small amounts in mixes.


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## SCJedi (Apr 28, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> How long should it last? I’ve heard of no-till gardens going on for 10+ years, what would they be using for aeration?


Certainly not perlite.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 28, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> My attitude? Lol you didn’t answer my question... didnt mean anything by it bud, just wanted an answer more on topic.
> 
> BTW you still didn’t answer it lol, maybe one too many J’s?


fair enough, but by attitude i was refering to what seemed to be a dissmisive tone to the effort i put into the post for you. on top oof that you didn't really read it right and insinuated i didnt read yours right. then said "That said, anyone have ideas on what to do for the aeration in my mix?" as if i didn't answer you. i may have over reacted so mb, but i still think you coulda tried a little harder to grasp what i was saying before dismissing it as me not understanding what no-till is or that i din't read you say you are no-till ("...And I’m no expert, but that’s definitely not no-till..."").
anyway it's water under the bridge i was mostly annoyed because i wrote that all out and you didn't really put effort into reading it, if you don;t want to do it that way cool ik it's not traditional however it's an option. plus you other comment about how to apply what i wrote to your no-till also bothered me because again that "And I’m no expert, but that’s definitely not no-till..." comment you made insinuates to me you should have the very basics of ammending no-till down and i shouldn't have to explain cover cropping or top dressing. i usually never get an attitude so i'm sorry for that part.
anyway good luck on your no-till journey, i'm serious. i only want to see ppl succeed


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> fair enough, but by attitude i was refering to what seemed to be a dissmisive tone to the effort i put into the post for you. on top oof that you didn't really read it right and insinuated i didnt read yours right. then said "That said, anyone have ideas on what to do for the aeration in my mix?" as if i didn't answer you. i may have over reacted so mb, but i still think you coulda tried a little harder to grasp what i was saying before dismissing it as me not understanding what no-till is or that i din't read you say you are no-till ("And I’m no expert, but that’s definitely not no-till...").
> anyway it's water under the bridge i was mostly annoyed because i wrote that all out and you didn't really put effort into reading it, if you don;t want to do it that way cool ik it's not traditional however it's an option. plus you other comment about how to apply what i wrote to your no-till also bothered me because again that "im no expert but that isn;t no-till comment" you made insinuates to me you should havve the very basics of ammending no-till down and i shouldn't have to explain cover cropping or top dressing. i usually never get an attitude so i'm sorry for that part.
> anyway good luck on your no-till journey, i'm serious. i only want to see ppl succeed


Lol all good. Thanks for the advice, definitely some food for thought.


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## outliergenetix (Apr 28, 2019)

hillbill said:


> I didn’t say I liked a lot of runoff, just some but my mixes seem very water friendly with such a ratio of well used mix. Small containers and plants in perpetual under LEDs. Variety is why I use perpetual methods and why I like beans. Also, clones do not exist in my world.


i din't mean to imply you like allot of runnoff i just found it harder to water for me without alot of runoff using allot of perlite or something. i have used hydroton tho in my soil prior to the method i use now as i had a shit ton from my hydro days. i would just sift it out before recycling my soil so i could get the desired amount in apot by pot basis but that became cumbersome. the other reason i do what i do is i don't drive and i can get a large quntity of coco free shippin on amazon you can't do that with peat or sphagnum. i arrived at my mix out of necessity and laziness it just happes to wor k great to for me. since i use 100 gallons tubs to compost in and cook my soil etc you can only imagine how hard without driving it would be to get that much medium. everything i get comes in the mail or i make it


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## SCJedi (Apr 28, 2019)

FWIW, I wanted the 30g pots in the pics above to be no till. I was worried because I stacked them off-season and let them sit. They are still giant rootballs from a year ago. When I popped that one out it actually came apart a lot easier than o thought. It's given me the chance to mix in new nutes, add more compost and EWC and re-connect new Blusoak tape.

In my experience a cover crop should really only be used if you intend on cutting it down and tilling it in or covering it with top dressing and mulch. I learned that mites love live clover


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## outliergenetix (Apr 28, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> FWIW, I wanted the 30g pots in the pics above to be no till. I was worried because I stacked them off-season and let them sit. They are still giant rootballs from a year ago. When I popped that one out it actually came apart a lot easier than o thought. It's given me the chance to mix in new nutes, add more compost and EWC and re-connect new Blusoak tape.
> 
> In my experience a cover crop should really only be used if you intend on cutting it down and tilling it in or covering it with top dressing and mulch. I learned that mites love live clover


that is exactly what i mean by cover cropping as an ammendment. you def need to cut it down unless it is a legume also rememebr that it will steal N from the soil till it decompioses fully. even after you cut it. you can also simply top dress over it either with actual ammendments or smother it with hay to kill it and decompose it. tho if you use legumes as a cover crop there will be avail N on the nodules as i think was discussed in this thread not to far back. not sure if it was this thread tho. but some cover crops are N fixing because of the stored nutrients in root nodules


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## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> Certainly not perlite.
> View attachment 4324728 View attachment 4324729


Not sure what this means... sorry! Has the perlite gone bad or something? 

What is the lifespan of perlite vs pumice or lava rock?


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## SCJedi (Apr 28, 2019)

Perlite does one of two things it floats to the top or breaks down into a cement-like paste


----------



## hillbill (Apr 28, 2019)

Nurseries use a lot composted pine bark based mixes and it worked well in Fafard B which I used years ago. The NAPA 8822 is about the very same thing as Turface.


----------



## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> Perlite does one of two things it floats to the top or breaks down into a cement-like paste


And how long does it usually take to break down? Assuming indoor environment, constantly being grown in.


----------



## hillbill (Apr 28, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> And how long does it usually take to break down? Assuming indoor environment, constantly being grown in.


Quoting quote, seems perlite is not all the same in this and some seem more crumbly right from the start. Squeeze a pea size grain an$ it is dustwhile others are harder and have better integrity.

Anyone use crushed granite gravel for drainage. It’s used extensively in the upper Midwest for roads and trails.


----------



## Groat21 (Apr 28, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Quoting quote, seems perlite is not all the same in this and some seem more crumbly right from the start. Squeeze a pea size grain an$ it is dustwhile others are harder and have better integrity.
> 
> Anyone use crushed granite gravel for drainage. It’s used extensively in the upper Midwest for roads and trails.


Soooo?? Seems everyone on this thread goes off topic on answers...


----------



## hillbill (Apr 28, 2019)

Topic Nazi.


----------



## Chronikool (Apr 29, 2019)

'Alien Rift' on Day 49 in ROLS


----------



## hillbill (Apr 29, 2019)

Need to mix a batch soon again. It will be about 60% recycled. 

Nice bud there at 7 weeks Ckool!


----------



## Dryxi (Apr 29, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Quoting quote, seems perlite is not all the same in this and some seem more crumbly right from the start. Squeeze a pea size grain an$ it is dustwhile others are harder and have better integrity.
> 
> Anyone use crushed granite gravel for drainage. It’s used extensively in the upper Midwest for roads and trails.


I use medium sized pumice in my beds for aeration. Works great for me.

On a different note regarding a post I saw earlier. Cover crop is not going to be stealing much in the way of nutrients. The amount of nutes found in your soil is going to be way more than the actual cannabis plant can uptake, and thus it isnt going to straight compete against your cover crop. We aren't growing another high nutrient hog plant as cover crop, like tomatoes or something, your growing smaller plants that are being used to keep the soil moist and safe. I dont cut down my cover crop unless it is literally interfering with my cannabis plants, and when I harvest, I then trim back the cover crop and let it regrow. Any nutrients that were "stolen" aren't going anywhere but back into the soil anyway. Also cover crop performs other benefits such as keeping a diverse population of microbes around your plants. Every plant is going to need something different at any given moment, the plants put out specific exudates to attract specific microbes to get specific nutrients. Clover might be looking for some lead while your cannabis is looking for some boron or maybe some zinc. And when your cannabis wants some lead, well the microbes are nearby thanks to your clover, and wa la, your cannabis is being more efficient since the microbes that support it are already near the root zone. Remember by nearby I'm talking about millimeters not feet. The roots only grab nutes that are within millimeters of the root tips (without help).

Cannabis is going to dominate most cover crops, and the competition is not happening. Cannabis grows too big too fast to find interspersed clover, rye grass, dill, whatever your cover cropping as competition. It's like a NBA star on the court with a bunch of high schoolers. It's not competition, the star is still going to do what he wants.


----------



## hillbill (Apr 29, 2019)

Only pumice here in rural mid South is the landscape chunks which this old guy isn’t gonna screw with. I do use sharp gravel that fills creek beds here after heavy rains and may drive down the hill and shovel some up today.


----------



## ShLUbY (Apr 29, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> And how long does it usually take to break down? Assuming indoor environment, constantly being grown in.


if you're using perlite in a no-till bed setting... probably take a while to break down. the problem I have with perlite is that it is chemically inert. It has almost zero CEC. whereas pumice and scoria (lava rock) have a really good CEC.


----------



## Groat21 (Apr 29, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> if you're using perlite in a no-till bed setting... probably take a while to break down. the problem I have with perlite is that it is chemically inert. It has almost zero CEC. whereas pumice and scoria (lava rock) have a really good CEC.


know any good sources near Ontario, Canada?


----------



## ShLUbY (Apr 29, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> know any good sources near Ontario, Canada?


The only canadian organic grow supplier I know of is blackswallow, people often reference them on here. not sure if that works for you. I'm from the states so I'm the wrong person to be asking lol.


----------



## Groat21 (Apr 29, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> The only canadian organic grow supplier I know of is blackswallow, people often reference them on here. not sure if that works for you. I'm from the states so I'm the wrong person to be asking lol.


That’s who I’ve been using, and they have them. $26!!! I’m mid order lol


Edit: this was meant for the other forum you replied to about the fabric pot... found it!


----------



## Chronikool (Apr 29, 2019)

'Alien Rift' on Day 56 in ROLS


----------



## ShLUbY (Apr 29, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Alien Rift' on Day 56 in ROLS
> 
> View attachment 4325253


looks delicious!


----------



## Chronikool (May 1, 2019)

'Blurkool' on Day 44 in ROLS


----------



## Groat21 (May 2, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> if you're using perlite in a no-till bed setting... probably take a while to break down. the problem I have with perlite is that it is chemically inert. It has almost zero CEC. whereas pumice and scoria (lava rock) have a really good CEC.


I found some lava rock, it looks natural too, but it’s large size(biggest pieces are 2-3 inches)

Would this work if I crushed it? I would probably just use a few bags and then perlite and some biochar.

https://www.homehardware.ca/en/7lb-barbecue-lava-rocks/p/6422542


----------



## ShLUbY (May 3, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> I found some lava rock, it looks natural too, but it’s large size(biggest pieces are 2-3 inches)
> 
> Would this work if I crushed it? I would probably just use a few bags and then perlite and some biochar.
> 
> https://www.homehardware.ca/en/7lb-barbecue-lava-rocks/p/6422542


yup crushing is totally fine. if you have a landscape supply store near you, you might be able to find it cheaper, and already crushed.


----------



## Groat21 (May 3, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> yup crushing is totally fine. if you have a landscape supply store near you, you might be able to find it cheaper, and already crushed.


Could not find pumice anywhere, but I picked up about 15 gallons of red lava rock for FREE today.

Will this rock work? It seems pretty porous, and there’s a good variety of sizes. It was in their garden bed for 5+ years, I can clean it and crush it if necessary.
 

I am using a 65 gallon pot, was aiming for 20 gallons of aeration, maybe 25(still undecided, could use some input) 
I was going to use 5 gallons of biochar, and then the rest lava rock/ perlite. I already have the 15 gallons of lava rock and about 5 gallons of perlite


----------



## ShLUbY (May 3, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> Could not find pumice anywhere, but I picked up about 15 gallons of red lava rock for FREE today.
> 
> Will this rock work? It seems pretty porous, and there’s a good variety of sizes. It was in their garden bed for 5+ years, I can clean it and crush it if necessary.
> View attachment 4327446
> ...


yeah you just gotta crush up the bigger pieces. I'd want it like 5/16" and smaller (<1cm)


----------



## Groat21 (May 3, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> yup crushing is totally fine. if you have a landscape supply store near you, you might be able to find it cheaper, and already crushed.





ShLUbY said:


> yeah you just gotta crush up the bigger pieces. I'd want it like 5/16" and smaller (<1cm)


perfect, maybe I’ll make a sieve and sift it. Or just do it rough.

Would it be better to go smaller or larger if need be? And what do you do with the dust leftover?

Thanks again


----------



## Mohican (May 4, 2019)

Careful - I crushed red lava rock and when the water hit the dust it smelled like concrete and solidified just like concrete. I had to pull all of my plants out of it and replant.


----------



## Groat21 (May 4, 2019)

Mohican said:


> Careful - I crushed red lava rock and when the water hit the dust it smelled like concrete and solidified just like concrete. I had to pull all of my plants out of it and replant.


I’ve seen a lot of people say they’ve had success with crushed lava rock... did you rinse them off before putting them in soil?

I’ve also seen people on here say sometimes these “lava rocks” are actually nothing more than concrete, so maybe that was the case.

Anyways, I will make sure that’s not the case before adding to my soil!


----------



## Groat21 (May 6, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> yeah you just gotta crush up the bigger pieces. I'd want it like 5/16" and smaller (<1cm)


So you want everything smaller than 1cm? What about the smallest pieces and the dust, should I exclude those?

I went out for a few minutes and crushed a some with my mini sledge. Here is what I got, the very largest pieces are 2cm, most are smaller. I just didn’t want to turn it all to dust/too small!

And here is what is leftover, should I rinse the dust away and toss it in? Or toss it in as is? Or just get rid of it? 
 (Got a bit of water on it by accident..)


Thanks again, guys!


----------



## Dryxi (May 7, 2019)

That looks fine man. Both the smaller pieces and the larger pieces will provide aeration either way. Smaller pieces just take up less room. You can wash the dust off it you want, I do not think it will make much of a difference either way though. No need to exclude pieces smaller than 1cm, they will still help your soil.


----------



## Groat21 (May 7, 2019)

Dryxi said:


> That looks fine man. Both the smaller pieces and the larger pieces will provide aeration either way. Smaller pieces just take up less room. You can wash the dust off it you want, I do not think it will make much of a difference either way though. No need to exclude pieces smaller than 1cm, they will still help your soil.


Thanks, I will try to aim for the 1cm thickness, but it’s ok to have some pieces a bit bigger? 

I’m going to be adding perlite to get my aeration closer to 40% plus biochar as well


----------



## SCJedi (May 7, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> Thanks, I will try to aim for the 1cm thickness, but it’s ok to have some pieces a bit bigger?
> 
> I’m going to be adding perlite to get my aeration closer to 40% plus biochar as well


The aeration I use (GS-1 growstones) is large, about 3/4" and that works great. I've been meaning to add biochar too but keep forgetting


----------



## ShLUbY (May 7, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> The aeration I use (GS-1 growstones) is large, about 3/4" and that works great. I've been meaning to add biochar too but keep forgetting


I can't find those anymore... they were my favorite!


----------



## Groat21 (May 7, 2019)

Dryxi said:


> That looks fine man. Both the smaller pieces and the larger pieces will provide aeration either way. Smaller pieces just take up less room. You can wash the dust off it you want, I do not think it will make much of a difference either way though. No need to exclude pieces smaller than 1cm, they will still help your soil.


And it’s fine that it is sharp/rough on the edges?


----------



## Dryxi (May 7, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> And it’s fine that it is sharp/rough on the edges?


I mean one would prefer dull over sharp but I dont imagine it harming much. I'm sure it isn't sharp enough to cut you if you put your hand in the soil with it and nothing in the soil, worms/roots/beneficial bugs/etc., is moving fast enough to get cut.


----------



## SCJedi (May 7, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> I can't find those anymore... they were my favorite!


Bummer. The GS-1 and the Gnatnix is everywhere here but I am also in Northern California.


----------



## Groat21 (May 7, 2019)

Dryxi said:


> I mean one would prefer dull over sharp but I dont imagine it harming much. I'm sure it isn't sharp enough to cut you if you put your hand in the soil with it and nothing in the soil, worms/roots/beneficial bugs/etc., is moving fast enough to get cut.


Yeah, I don’t know how I would get them dull though, so they will have to do. Thanks!


----------



## Chronikool (May 15, 2019)

'Blurkool' at Harvest in ROLS


----------



## Groat21 (May 15, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Blurkool' at Harvest in ROLS
> 
> View attachment 4333916


Dear god, that looks excellent!

EDIT: I just noticed the little bug on there, what is that?


----------



## Chronikool (May 15, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> Dear god, that looks excellent!
> 
> EDIT: I just noticed the little bug on there, what is that?


Yeah..shes easy to run. 

Hahaha...thatz my pet gnat.....'Gnatty G'


----------



## hillbill (May 15, 2019)

Is that a nanner ?


----------



## Chronikool (May 15, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Is that a nanner ?


Nah...at her heart..shes a 'greeny' underneath... so i believe itz making a last ditch effort to get out. 

Unless you see something i dont..?


----------



## hillbill (May 15, 2019)

Center, one third down?


----------



## Chronikool (May 15, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Center, one third down?


Not seeing it...but ill scope her when i pull her down in a few hours


----------



## hillbill (May 15, 2019)

Really don’t matter this late.


----------



## Groat21 (May 17, 2019)

I am just about ready to mix my soil. The weather is turning warmer here (still down to 40F at night though).

I have an old inflatable pool that is more than large enough for my 70 gallons of soil. I’m just looking for some guidance on the process.

Do I just mix my base mix first, then add the amendments, mix well and wet it down a bit? Then should I cover it up with a tarp? How often should it be turned, and how long should it cook?


----------



## grilledcheese101 (May 19, 2019)

Checked on my raised bed on wheels up north today, soil is recycled organic coco soil mix, and various layers of other soils. Probably about 3 years old. Ive just been hitting it with weeping willow tree tea and activated labs. Couple seedlings im running in pots with organic top dressing in there aswell. I think i counted 9 seedlings that have popped so far. Not bad for a couple nights of frost. All sorts of cover crop coming up. Also have a freedom dream in there (10/1 cbd/thc) its had a rough life but im sure itll keep truckin


----------



## Chronikool (May 20, 2019)

'Strawberry Glue 0n Day 49 in ROLS


----------



## IIReignManII (May 21, 2019)

I guess I'm a mushroom farmer now? lmao...these little guys been popping up all over my pots


----------



## growslut (May 22, 2019)

Can someone help me out with the math? I've got good compost with a mixture of pumice and perlite getting prepped for 30 gallon fabric pots, how much amendments should I add to each?

I plan on using: 
Oyster meal
Neem Meal
Diatomaceous Earth (silica)
Epson Salt
Bokashi
Humic Acid

Also, is there anything else I should add? Especially to help the plant cope with heat over the 100+ degree summer?


----------



## outliergenetix (May 22, 2019)

growslut said:


> Can someone help me out with the math? I've got good compost with a mixture of pumice and perlite getting prepped for 30 gallon fabric pots, how much amendments should I add to each?
> 
> I plan on using:
> Oyster meal
> ...


i wouldn't use epsom salt, use langbenite or something, just my two cents there, also not a fan of DE if you are recycling soil aka re-using it. perhaps look into insect frass with silica if it isn;t too pricey on the large scale you are doing. sorry i cannot provide the answer you are asking for tho


----------



## grilledcheese101 (May 22, 2019)

Went up north again this afternoon to do some keep up on my compost and the 2x4 raised bed on wheels. The seedlings in the pots are taking off (main difference being they come inside during the night to stay warm) but the raised bed seedlings are extremely stout and ridgid for their size. The freedom dream (biggest plant) has had a rpugh life, was given to me in flower and i put it outside in very early spring. Today i topped it at the last node new growth has started and it is slowly revegging. I have some of my own semi-stabilized bag seed genetics in there aswell. Not sure where the mom/dad came from but the pollen and f2 beans are fuckin solid. Popped 2 seeds 1 was male 1 was fem i crossed those together. Also used the male on a dinafem blue cheese and a super lemon haze auto? Cant remember. 
There are 2 blue crosses on the far left, the rest are 5 purples (f2s) and 1 random. Cover crop is also growing nicely. Chives, clover, onions, peppers, whatever will grow really lol. Didnt take a picture but i also crushed a bunch of frozen chilli peppers from last years allotment and spread them across the top soil just to decrease bugs.


----------



## grilledcheese101 (May 22, 2019)

growslut said:


> Also, is there anything else I should add? Especially to help the plant cope with heat over the 100+ degree summer?


Would just shooting in the dark but maybe a large river rock/stone would work well as a heat/cold sink inside the pot. Id imagine it would get rather cold over night and would battle the radiant heat from the sun as it comes up. Possibly even keep it somewhat warm into the night. Geothermal lol.


----------



## outliergenetix (May 22, 2019)

grilledcheese101 said:


> Went up north again this afternoon to do some keep up on my compost and the 2x4 raised bed on wheels. The seedlings in the pots are taking off (main difference being they come inside during the night to stay warm) but the raised bed seedlings are extremely stout and ridgid for their size. The freedom dream (biggest plant) has had a rpugh life, was given to me in flower and i put it outside in very early spring. Today i topped it at the last node new growth has started and it is slowly revegging. I have some of my own semi-stabilized bag seed genetics in there aswell. Not sure where the mom/dad came from but the pollen and f2 beans are fuckin solid. Popped 2 seeds 1 was male 1 was fem i crossed those together. Also used the male on a dinafem blue cheese and a super lemon haze auto? Cant remember.
> There are 2 blue crosses on the far left, the rest are 5 purples (f2s) and 1 random. Cover crop is also growing nicely. Chives, clover, onions, peppers, whatever will grow really lol. Didnt take a picture but i also crushed a bunch of frozen chilli peppers from last years allotment and spread them across the top soil just to decrease bugs.


nice!!


----------



## cocoleveo7686 (May 25, 2019)

So if you mix 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 compost. Then add amendments, I still have to let the soil cook for a month? Was gonna add mykos and azoz as well. But dont have a month to wait


----------



## grilledcheese101 (May 25, 2019)

cocoleveo7686 said:


> So if you mix 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 compost. Then add amendments, I still have to let the soil cook for a month? Was gonna add mykos and azoz as well. But dont have a month to wait



Thats alot of compost.


----------



## cocoleveo7686 (May 25, 2019)

grilledcheese101 said:


> Thats alot of compost.


Ok well even with less compost that still needs to be cooked?


----------



## LeddySnips (May 25, 2019)

cocoleveo7686 said:


> So if you mix 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 compost. Then add amendments, I still have to let the soil cook for a month? Was gonna add mykos and azoz as well. But dont have a month to wait


I use compost mixtures as a bottom layer for later established roots to tap into more so then the base mix but if i did i would bake prior to mixing 1:1:1, if the compost itself is already baked as long as you mix the amendments properly and not over do it you should be fine.
I throw amendments through my 1:1:1 mixes at about 700g per 25-30L of mixed soil and only had issues with stuff baking if i left a big clump of stuff not mixed properly.


----------



## SCJedi (May 26, 2019)

cocoleveo7686 said:


> So if you mix 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration, 1/3 compost. Then add amendments, I still have to let the soil cook for a month? Was gonna add mykos and azoz as well. But dont have a month to wait


It depends on the amendments. If you're using Coot style a week is fine. If you are using blood and bone meals then let it cook longer


----------



## hillbill (May 26, 2019)

I,m pretty conservative on fast N in my recycled mixes. EWC will give a nice start with a few additions. I’ had to use mixes after a few days at times and avoid blood meal and high N guano and not too much Magic (Alfalfa).


----------



## Chronikool (May 26, 2019)

'Rusty Og' seedling in Coco...


----------



## hillbill (May 28, 2019)

Just picked up several bags of “topsoil” at The local Walmarts, #1 ingredient Pine Bark Fines! Looks excellent and I’ll be fooling with it inside and out.


----------



## Gingeroot (May 29, 2019)

Insect frass, azomite, and oyster shell flour make things too boring!


----------



## Unorthodoxy (Jun 2, 2019)

We have chooks and a big bag of crushed Oyster shells for a food supplement - BUT they are 'pullet sized', maybe 1/4", which I think may be too big to use in a SS mix. Should I bother? Maybe I can crush some up with a mortar and pestle? Anyone have experience with that?

So far I have some used soil,
compost,
Perlite,
Bone Meal
Blood meal
Kelp meal
Alfalfa meal
Worm castings
And I'm going to add:
Neem meal,
Azomite
Maybe some crab or Crustacean meal.

Does this sound like a decent recipe?


----------



## hillbill (Jun 2, 2019)

A blender works wonders on pellets or pelletized or coarse crushed items Oster cheap ones still have thick ha stainless blades.


----------



## AkFrost (Jun 2, 2019)

I saw some pics a couple pages back of ppl showing off. Great job! Here are mine in a 4x4 grasssroots living soil bed (now that I have internet again...lol). It’s a Coots no-till soil with some extras at about a year a half old. Over did the amendments somewhere along the line and it’s water only now. But they are WWxBB at week 10, I’m about to harvest them.


----------



## grilledcheese101 (Jun 2, 2019)

Checked up on the no till raised bed on wheels today. Things are really starting to fill in! I uprooted some small wild raspberry bushes last week and added them into the mix aswell. They seem to have taken hold of the new home. All the plants are doing great. No defficiencies as of yet.


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 4, 2019)

AkFrost said:


> View attachment 4344211 View attachment 4344212 View attachment 4344213 View attachment 4344221 I saw some pics a couple pages back of ppl showing off. Great job! Here are mine in a 4x4 grasssroots living soil bed (now that I have internet again...lol). It’s a Coots no-till soil with some extras at about a year a half old. Over did the amendments somewhere along the line and it’s water only now. But they are WWxBB at week 10, I’m about to harvest them.


Great work! Good to see some other photos in here!


----------



## IIReignManII (Jun 7, 2019)

Unorthodoxy said:


> We have chooks and a big bag of crushed Oyster shells for a food supplement - BUT they are 'pullet sized', maybe 1/4", which I think may be too big to use in a SS mix. Should I bother? Maybe I can crush some up with a mortar and pestle? Anyone have experience with that?
> 
> So far I have some used soil,
> compost,
> ...


Sounds good, a little gypsum never hurts


----------



## IIReignManII (Jun 7, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Rusty Og' seedling in Coco...
> View attachment 4340236


Thats a gorgeous picture what kind of camera did you take this on


----------



## Chronikool (Jun 8, 2019)

IIReignManII said:


> Thats a gorgeous picture what kind of camera did you take this on


Thanks yo! .. A Lumix G7... Olympus 60mm 2.8f macro lens


----------



## Unorthodoxy (Jun 11, 2019)

IIReignManII said:


> Sounds good, a little gypsum never hurts


Thanks, I will add that to the list. It should be cheap and easy to obtain, and it certainly wouldn't hurt to diversify my minerals.


----------



## hillbill (Jun 11, 2019)

Lots of minerals from different sources seems to make my mixes more forgiving and the plants do great.


----------



## grilledcheese101 (Jul 2, 2019)

Small update on the outdoor no till - no maintenance. Just been chopping down cover crop. The 2 large potted plants have some dinosaur leaves, the top ring of the tomato cage is 12" wide just for perspective. photos are from nearly a week ago ill try to get out ther and get some more pics soon.


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 11, 2019)

'Bubba '76' in ROLS on day 43


----------



## Obepawn (Jul 12, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Bubba '76' in ROLS on day 43
> 
> View attachment 4363757


Oh my god, the prom queen. Damn that is beautiful.


----------



## SCJedi (Jul 12, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Bubba '76' in ROLS on day 43
> 
> View attachment 4363757


She looks a lot like my Mendo Purps x SFV OG IBL just a little less dense.


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 12, 2019)

Obepawn said:


> Oh my god, the prom queen. Damn that is beautiful.


Yeah...not bad huh. 1st time running her. Pretty happy with what im seeing 



SCJedi said:


> She looks a lot like my Mendo Purps x SFV OG IBL just a little less dense.
> 
> View attachment 4363936


Similar rounded crownz i reckon. Except yourz lookz a true purps as opposed to my colder temp purps..


----------



## hyroot (Jul 19, 2019)

Dosidos day 36



Highland Breath day 37



The Mac day 37


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 22, 2019)

Bubba'76 on Day 53 in ROLS


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 22, 2019)




----------



## grilledcheese101 (Jul 23, 2019)

Running outa containers, bamboo stakes, n tomato cages, just topped everyhing off with some fresh compost and worms. Foliar feeding epsom salt. Ran outa LAB's and weeping willow tree tea n havent brewed any more yet. Working on multiplying bottled microbes with aeration dilution and sugars in effort to get my dollars worth back outa it (lol( so ill put that to the test next week. Got some corn seed sprouting gonna make a sst and throw it in with the microbes for a ultimate microbe enzyme tea lol

No topping thus year just letting the plant go as naturally as i possibly can without diminished returns. Lollipopped this year and sewms to keep alota bugs out.

All my own home brewed strains except the tallest lanky sativa on the right. Its nearly 7 feet at this point tied a broomstick to it lol. Given to me as a seedling in a phillidelphia cheese container from a friend. Its name is philly cheese.


----------



## Chronikool (Jul 25, 2019)

Nitrous on day something in ROLS n coco coir


----------



## rollinfunk (Aug 4, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Bubba '76' in ROLS on day 43
> 
> View attachment 4363757


Emerald Triangle Seeds Regs? I always wondered how they were. Supposedly the regs were from americans and the fems were made in europe so hit or miss. Looks great.


----------



## Chronikool (Aug 4, 2019)

rollinfunk said:


> Emerald Triangle Seeds Regs? I always wondered how they were. Supposedly the regs were from americans and the fems were made in europe so hit or miss. Looks great.


No. Humboldt Seed Organization


----------



## Chronikool (Aug 4, 2019)

Bubba '76 - Day 59 (Spider Web pheno) in ROLS


----------



## DonBrennon (Aug 4, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> No. Humboldt Seed Organization


Closely connected if not actually the same people(I know 'Geist' grew/supplied seeds for both), shared genetics for sure, as far as I know.


----------



## Groat21 (Aug 4, 2019)

Hey guys, I was wondering about other types of mulch to use on my organic no-till bed.

It's 30"x30", I am planning on using hay and some type of cover crop, but I was wondering about soap nuts. They would provide saponins when watered, and would likely last a while,

Any advice on my mulch layer would be great. I've had a fungus gnat problem recently as well in my smaller tent, so anything that might help with that would also be great.

Thanks!


----------



## Chronikool (Aug 6, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> Hey guys, I was wondering about other types of mulch to use on my organic no-till bed.
> 
> It's 30"x30", I am planning on using hay and some type of cover crop, but I was wondering about soap nuts. They would provide saponins when watered, and would likely last a while,
> 
> ...


Give them a go and report back. Personally never used them but they arent gonna be detrimental at all


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## Groat21 (Aug 6, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> Give them a go and report back. Personally never used them but they arent gonna be detrimental at all


I ordered some (200g for like $8...) but they’re from a good place I get most of my stuff from, and most stuff is price fairly well. I’m in Canada, so a lot of stuff can be hard/expensive to find. 

Going to see how they break down and if my worms will be able to consume them, likely would need a combination of something like hay which would decompose more rapidly, and hold the moisture.


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## Chronikool (Aug 6, 2019)

Thatz also true about the decomposition...cant beat a good mix of living companion/cover crop, a dead mulch and a slow release 'feed' (amino acid/saponins)


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## hillbill (Aug 6, 2019)

If you use hay for mulch, you will have a cover crop. Use straw and you won’t have to thin seedlings as much


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## Groat21 (Aug 6, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> Thatz also true about the decomposition...cant beat a good mix of living companion/cover crop, a dead mulch and a slow release 'feed' (amino acid/saponins)


What do you like to use as cover crop?

I used a combination of alfalfa and clover outside this year, and I was thinking about mint, but I’ve heard it’s invasive(like clover).



hillbill said:


> If you use hay for mulch, you will have a cover crop. Use straw and you won’t have to thin seedlings as much


Well, I already have a bale of hay, maybe I’ll get straw next time!


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## MrKnotty (Aug 11, 2019)

I would not use mint....it can really grow out of control. I like to use wheatgrass as a cover crop though, so maybe you want to think about that for a third. Alfalfa and clover are amazing though and should do the job just fine.


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## Groat21 (Aug 11, 2019)

MrKnotty said:


> I would not use mint....it can really grow out of control. I like to use wheatgrass as a cover crop though, so maybe you want to think about that for a third. Alfalfa and clover are amazing though and should do the job just fine.


I have some chamomile seeds as well, I’ve heard that can be a good companion/cover crop. And if I got a few flowers it might look nice too lol


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## 4ftRoots (Aug 11, 2019)

Groat21 said:


> I have some chamomile seeds as well, I’ve heard that can be a good companion/cover crop. And if I got a few flowers it might look nice too lol


Clover, Roman Chamomile, and Yarrow are my favorites. Yarrow is used in bio dynamic farming as well so you have that. I've read somewhere that certain plants can be synergistic with cannabis, increasing essential oil production and flavor. So the more diversity in your cover crop can only make your grow better.


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## IIReignManII (Aug 12, 2019)

I've been trying to scale up my home grow soil recipe to figure out what it would cost to fill some soil beds for a commercial grow with the same recipe. Here are some numbers I've been jotting down

*Base*
Compost $75 cubic yard
Worm Shit $750 cubic yard
pumice $160 cubic yard
coco coir $150 cubic yard

*Per 50 pounds*
Blood meal $87
Bone meal $53
Fish bone meal $40
Kelp meal $100
Alfalfa meal $40
Greensand $66
Azomite $45
Gypsum $60
Lime $60
crab meal $50
langbeinite $48

*Extras*
oregonism xl $191, mykos $174, mammoth P $200

*Cups per 50 pound bag of amendments*

blood meal 125 cups
bone meal 100 cups
fish bone 100 cups
kelp meal 150 cups
alfalfa 175 cups
greensand 75 cups
azomite 125 cups
gypsum 87.5 cups
lime 65 cups
crab meal 200 cups 
langbeinite 50 cups (I dont have the langbeinite and crab meal in the recipe below but I would probably leave out the Biotone and use those instead)







Any thoughts are appreciated


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## grilledcheese101 (Aug 16, 2019)

Wee update, just topped with ewc


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## CanadianDank (Aug 20, 2019)

4ftRoots said:


> Clover, Roman Chamomile, and Yarrow are my favorites. Yarrow is used in bio dynamic farming as well so you have that. I've read somewhere that certain plants can be synergistic with cannabis, increasing essential oil production and flavor. So the more diversity in your cover crop can only make your grow better.


Never used Yarrow as a companion crop but I do use it for teas, got one Brewing right now. Quick 3-day Brew.

For the OP, mulch with whatever you have it all provides benefits the Hay is great (fungal food) also old dried cannabis leaves and stems are very good too. If you have any comfrey available it's great to top dress with as it's a major nutrient accumulator. Throw down crush leaves and then throw some compost on top of that and water and you're good


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## CanadianDank (Aug 20, 2019)

For my outdoors I mulch with whatever's left in the bucket I brew my teas with, threw down a whole bunch of sloppy old Dandylion carcasses the other day


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## Craigson (Aug 26, 2019)

IIReignManII said:


> I've been trying to scale up my home grow soil recipe to figure out what it would cost to fill some soil beds for a commercial grow with the same recipe. Here are some numbers I've been jotting down
> 
> *Base*
> Compost $75 cubic yard
> ...


How many beds and what size? A 4ftx8ftx12inch bed hols 1 yard of soil


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## stoner4204ever (Aug 28, 2019)

My leaves are dying. They were all green a week ago now their falling off.
I'm using Great Lakes water only soil.
45days flowering. May have burned with p.
I've added gypsum and foliar spray with epsom. Any ideas??


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## stoner4204ever (Aug 28, 2019)

I added 2 tbs hydro farms bloom crazy guano per gal last week.


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## getogrow (Aug 28, 2019)

stoner4204ever said:


> I added 2 tbs hydro farms bloom crazy guano per gal last week.


You need more nitrogen badly. almost too late now but i would still give her some. chicken shit or chems....she needs it two weeks ago....

I'd also say you overdid the P but you never know if you would of had enough N how it would have went...


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## stoner4204ever (Aug 28, 2019)

The guano was only 0-5-0 but I can give her some 5-1-1 grow crazy half strength maybe this will help?


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## getogrow (Aug 29, 2019)

stoner4204ever said:


> The guano was only 0-5-0 but I can give her some 5-1-1 grow crazy half strength maybe this will help?


This is why organics is so tough. Im not sure that powder will break down fast enough. a FULL dose of that a month ago would have been great. I would still try it....a full dose. its too early to cut all the N off.


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## newgrow16 (Aug 29, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> The aeration I use (GS-1 growstones) is large, about 3/4" and that works great. I've been meaning to add biochar too but keep forgetting


Cheap pumice sold as flooring for horses:

Dry Stall 40 lbs. $16.75, looks like expensive 3/8" garden pumice. It's just pumice. Has anyone looked for this or used it?

New mix in 30 gallon bin with dry stall pumice, I will know in a month.


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## SCJedi (Aug 29, 2019)

newgrow16 said:


> Cheap pumice sold as flooring for horses:
> 
> Dry Stall 40 lbs. $16.75, looks like expensive 3/8" garden pumice. It's just pumice. Has anyone looked for this or used it?
> 
> New mix in 30 gallon bin with dry stall pumice, I will know in a month.


Hmm, never knew that was a thing. I'll have to call our western ag store and see. It's time for me to work on raised beds for my veggies for next year. I'd love a good pumice source


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## stoner4204ever (Aug 29, 2019)

getogrow said:


> This is why organics is so tough. Im not sure that powder will break down fast enough. a FULL dose of that a month ago would have been great. I would still try it....a full dose. its too early to cut all the N off.


But I thought the water only soil was supposed to supply all the newts for the entire grow..


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## stoner4204ever (Aug 29, 2019)

I'll get some cal mag with 2-0-0 nkp that will help?


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## BoiseShortz (Sep 1, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> Hmm, never knew that was a thing. I'll have to call our western ag store and see. It's time for me to work on raised beds for my veggies for next year. I'd love a good pumice source


 I get pumice from a local gravel yard, $250-300 for a dump truck full, I use it like mulch and slowly work it in with a broadfork


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## getogrow (Sep 2, 2019)

stoner4204ever said:


> But I thought the water only soil was supposed to supply all the newts for the entire grow..


It is.
The problem is we have yet to make a "perfect soil for everyone". Supersoil is water only for my purp. Supersoil runs out of N in 5 weeks with my other cuts. the 2-0-0 will help a lil bit but i was thinking more like a 10-0-0. Chicken shit is very hot and full of N. (im guessing its very close to plant available too. (instant release))


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## stoner4204ever (Sep 4, 2019)

I'm using dry guano 5-1-1 for veg I add 0-5-0 with it 1 tbs each per gal for flower.


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## getogrow (Sep 4, 2019)

stoner4204ever said:


> I'm using dry guano 5-1-1 for veg I add 0-5-0 with it 1 tbs each per gal for flower.


its much much better to mix that dry stuff with your soil before using. The quano is not chelated. Its not yet available for the plants to eat, so mixing with water is very hard to control. Those are very good food sources to use, just put a lot more in the soil next time.....then in 3rd ish week of flower , top dress her like your doing now with water. No till is the best but if you aint got instant foods laying around , then youll end up doing a lot more learning then growing.....


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## stoner4204ever (Sep 4, 2019)

So liquid guano would be available as soon as I water?


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## stoner4204ever (Sep 4, 2019)

I did add calmag with 2-0-0 also florabloom


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## stoner4204ever (Sep 4, 2019)

.


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## getogrow (Sep 5, 2019)

stoner4204ever said:


> So liquid guano would be available as soon as I water?


No. The bacteria in the soil has to break it down before the plant can eat it. We have to guess on how long that takes.


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## crisduar (Sep 6, 2019)

Hello good morning, I do not speak English excuse any mistake.
I'm starting in super soil, I had land that I use with biobizz products and recycle it like this:
-70% recycled earth (it is type allmix biobizz, composana already brings perlite)
-30% earthworm humus (I added perlite)

* I can easily get:
- Palm Tree 0-1-30
- bat guano 2-10-1, I have and can get a local one that is 8-29-2.
- Neem cake in organic amendment rich in organic nitrogen based on Neem fruit cake flour and blood meal of farm animals. npk 12-0-2
- neem cake flour npk 7-1-2
I ask for help if someone can teach me to balance or adjust a recipe with local ingredients from my city.
how to know how much to put, some phosphorus amendments carry nitrogen and can block nitrogen if I have put an amendment to nitrogen before.

I just want to learn to fish, not to give me the fish.

Thank you.


----------



## crisduar (Sep 6, 2019)

in pots of 5.2 gallons (20 liters)


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## getogrow (Sep 6, 2019)

crisduar said:


> in pots of 5.2 gallons (20 liters)


indoors ?


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## crisduar (Sep 6, 2019)

[QUOTE = "getogrow, post: 15068721, member: 45438"] en interiores? [/ QUOTE]

Flowering outdoors, on my island there is a natural photoperiod is 12/12, 13/11 throughout the year short and fast blooms, except in June, July, I will try to get them of an appropriate size so that they do not fall short in size of flower pot
growth in cloth pots of 1.5 gallons (6L) to reach 45-50 centimeters.


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## Flavorcraver (Sep 7, 2019)

Hey I'm new to this forum would like to jump right into it... I run no till and rols . theese are some pineapple zkittles testers I just ran for a breeder friend of mine. They wer all done in no till 10gal pots. Some phenos finish up fast some go a lil longer then 8weeks...


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## swedsteven (Sep 8, 2019)

Sukini baby !! Stepmother organic grow !!
Her 3 weed plant turn out male next years i will give her 3 clone lol


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## Flavorcraver (Sep 16, 2019)

Ha thats a mini bic? You could have held up the full size bic and still been impressive lol... Love the pic tho that this is a monster! Deff get that lady some clones!!


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## crisduar (Sep 26, 2019)

Hello good in the end I made a mix with what I had on hand that was:
BASE MIX:
+ 70% land that had been used and recycled only with earthworm humus
and biobizz and bioblom, of the all-mix type, already had perlite.
+ 30% Earthworm Humus and added perlite.
INCREASE:
I've just put worm humus and I'm testing with Neem flour
+ I have an earthworm in motion that I feed with coffee grounds and banana peels, lettuce, aloe and what is left of the TAC, s and the SST.
FLOWERING:
+ Palm Ash (0-1-30) 333gr x 50L Base Mix
+ Guano Murcielago (2-10-1) 166gr x 50L Base Mix
I bought a guano of Jamaican bat (8-29-2) recommended dose 100gr x 30L of soil.
the problem I am having with some plants is that they have the leaves on the yellow edges and burns I have measured the ph by taking 1 pieces of soil: 2 part of water and it gave me between ph9 and ph8.7 I took some Californian worms I put them in the pots I put a layer of worm humus about 2cms wide and I have watered with TAC and SST (alfalfa and Corn) + humic and fulvic acids I think that my problem is with the alkalinity of the ash, I think it only remains for me to continue giving them TAC and SST and expect the microbiology to regulate the PH


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## Obepawn (Sep 26, 2019)

crisduar said:


> Hello good in the end I made a mix with what I had on hand that was:
> BASE MIX:
> + 70% land that had been used and recycled only with earthworm humus
> and biobizz and bioblom, of the all-mix type, already had perlite.
> ...


What happened with the lower leaves bro?


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## crisduar (Oct 12, 2019)

[QUOTE = "Fastslappy, publicación: 13879662, miembro: 920361"]
Tenga cuidado de que demasiada ceniza bloqueará una planta
Me sucedió
[/ CITAR]



Hello, good thanks, can you tell me how you solved it?

mil thank.


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## crisduar (Oct 12, 2019)

[QUOTE = "Obepawn, publicación: 15098711, miembro: 929247"]
¿Qué pasó con las hojas inferiores hermano?
[/CITAR]
Creo que la tierra está algo desequilibrada. Puse lombrices de tierra y vermicompost y las plantas se enfermaron un poco ... así que ahora están.


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## SCJedi (Oct 12, 2019)

crisduar said:


> [QUOTE = "Fastslappy, publicación: 13879662, miembro: 920361"]
> Tenga cuidado de que demasiada ceniza bloqueará una planta
> Me sucedió
> [/ CITAR]
> ...


Soil sulfur or peatmoss can lower the soil pH and make soil more acidic. You can also stick with your plan which is to continue to add lots of organic material and hope the biology stabilizes the pH sooner than later.

There are other amendments that you can use to speed up the process like Down To Earth's Acid Mix:

https://www.groworganic.com/acid-mix-4-3-6-6-lb-box.html (no affiliation, just an example)


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## Avinash (Oct 31, 2019)

Is epsom salts good if used while flowering for landrace and autos


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## Mohican (Oct 31, 2019)

I use it.


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## Avinash (Nov 1, 2019)

Which is organic bloom booster fox farm big bloom or big bud which will increase flowering size and potency


----------



## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Nov 4, 2019)

Love this thread! I do have a question if anyone has an answer! I was wondering if anyone has used doctor zymes eliminator as a soil drench or foliage spray with beneficial insects. I have some gnats and aphids but not enough lady bugs I wanted to help so I also got some nematodes and eliminator I didn't think or the product being able to kill my beneficial insects as I do have lady birds,red wigglers,and nematodes in my no till cover crop indoor grow. If it harms my predators I wont use it but if i can use it I definitely want the extra precaution,Cheers!


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Nov 16, 2019)

Loving it


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## Roseandtheseaerchon (Nov 20, 2019)

crisduar said:


> Hello good morning, I do not speak English excuse any mistake.
> I'm starting in super soil, I had land that I use with biobizz products and recycle it like this:
> -70% recycled earth (it is type allmix biobizz, composana already brings perlite)
> -30% earthworm humus (I added perlite)
> ...


Just mix it all in add a clover cover crop let is set let tha t grow. Buy sugercane mulch and smother it. Do this like a half day before planting. Then water. Check ure run off with a ppm meter this will tell u how strong u have it also the deficiences on the plant will shod you. Hope that hdlps


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## newguy41410 (Nov 23, 2019)

anyone know the main difference between these two cover crop mixes? One is half clovers and the other doesn't seem to be clover-heavy but is winter tolerant I guess? Not sure if I should switch to the winter version now that it's getting colder where i'm at Outdoors.. it is cheaper but I've been running the 50% clovers all year and they've been great so far. Thoughts?

50% clovers cover crop mix - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B07JQC188Q
winter cover crop mix - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08178CTW8


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## Brandon137 (Nov 27, 2019)

Hello all I have 4 10 gal smart pots that I need to re ammend for my next grow. I'm currently using ffof and it was new as of this round. one plant hermied on me during week 4 of flower here's what I was thinking of doing

Top dress with....
1/4 cup blood meal
1/4 cup bone meal
1.5 cups feather meal
1 cup glacial rock dust
1.5 cups kelp flour
1 cup alfalfa meal
1/2 cup oyster shell flour
1 cup of brown rice
I will then top the pots off with rinsed coco coir and ewc's probably a few cups of each

Any other suggestions?

Edit I'm also on well water which I assume is probably high in ppm


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## Mohican (Nov 27, 2019)

_Instead of blood meal I use fish meal or crab meal._


----------



## newguy41410 (Nov 28, 2019)

you're amending your soil with brown rice??  thats a first for me


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## Brandon137 (Nov 28, 2019)

newguy41410 said:


> you're amending your soil with brown rice??  thats a first for me


I've heard of people using rice for fungi food is brown rice not good for that?


----------



## Brandon137 (Nov 28, 2019)

Mohican said:


> _Instead of blood meal I use fish meal or crab meal._


I plan on going with fish meal next time I'm in need of ammendments any reason you go with fish meal? I used to work in the industry rasing fish for food so I have a basic understanding of how there processed and doesn't sound as scary and seems more sustainable.


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## Brandon137 (Nov 28, 2019)

Mohican said:


> _Instead of blood meal I use fish meal or crab meal._


At what rates do you apply your fish or crab?


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## Mohican (Nov 28, 2019)

Same as blood. I also supplement with chelated iron.

I also treat my water with lemon juice and Phosphoric acid to pH 5.7. I measured the pH of rainwater here and it was 5.7.


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## 207 Grown (Nov 28, 2019)

Brandon137 said:


> At what rates do you apply your fish or crab?


Hey guys, how's it going?

I'd like to suggest ditching the blood meal and adding some alfalfa meal or fish meal with high N

And I wouldn't add that much brown rice unless you plan to cook this soil for at least a month. It just doesn't seem necessary imo, but I'm open to hearing what anyone with experience has to say? 

Bloodmeal can contain diseases and is not as nutritious to plants as lots of other fertilizers/meals.

When I amend a soil, I always check to make sure that my inputs have a balanced mix of calcium and magnesium, along with a suitable NPK. 

Right now, my dry fertilizer blend is 4-4-4 and working so nicely.
Seaweed meal is important for micronutrients and beneficial hormones. 

Just some thoughts.


----------



## Brandon137 (Nov 28, 2019)

207 Grown said:


> Hey guys, how's it going?
> 
> I'd like to suggest ditching the blood meal and adding some alfalfa meal or fish meal with high N
> 
> ...


I have a month till my tent is free anyways I had to chop a hermie so I'll be reammending that pot and also at this rate I may have to chop the rest of the plants power has been out since yesterday at 2pm need some water has anyone tried using lake water? That's my only option right now as I dont have enough bottled water


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Nov 28, 2019)

Brandon137 said:


> I have a month till my tent is free anyways I had to chop a hermie so I'll be reammending that pot and also at this rate I may have to chop the rest of the plants power has been out since yesterday at 2pm need some water has anyone tried using lake water? That's my only option right now as I dont have enough bottled water


If the lake is clean with lots of healthy fish then I would think the water would be totally fine, but I'm no expert. I do know healthy aquarium water is awesome for plants so that just sounds like it makes sense to me. If you're in Ontario, I would guess it's pretty clean water, but you would know better than I do.


----------



## hillbill (Nov 29, 2019)

Brandon137 said:


> I have a month till my tent is free anyways I had to chop a hermie so I'll be reammending that pot and also at this rate I may have to chop the rest of the plants power has been out since yesterday at 2pm need some water has anyone tried using lake water? That's my only option right now as I dont have enough bottled water


Lake, river and pond water if reasonably clean is mostly awesome, livewell water is even better


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Nov 29, 2019)

hillbill said:


> Lake, river and pond water if reasonably clean is mostly awesome, livewell water is even better


You're making me want to go walleye fishing with the livewell talk, lol.


----------



## Brandon137 (Nov 29, 2019)

Thanks guys water is fairly clean I live on a lake next to the middle of no where lol


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## SCJedi (Nov 29, 2019)

Brandon137 said:


> I've heard of people using rice for fungi food is brown rice not good for that?


If you want to collect native fungus and bacterias put cooked rice in a pantyhose and bury it about 10-12" in the ground next to the oldest tree you can find. Come back a year later and make teas with it.

I collect a lot of fungi from the aging hardwood chip piles under the old oak trees at the park across from our house


----------



## Brandon137 (Nov 29, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> If you want to collect native fungus and bacterias put cooked rice in a pantyhose and bury it about 10-12" in the ground next to the oldest tree you can find. Come back a year later and make teas with it.
> 
> I collect a lot of fungi from the aging hardwood chip piles under the old oak trees at the park across from our house


Oh wow cool I will try this this summer can I use it as a top dress?


----------



## SCJedi (Dec 2, 2019)

Brandon137 said:


> Oh wow cool I will try this this summer can I use it as a top dress?


You can but it is better to give it some food and water it all in.


----------



## Brandon137 (Dec 3, 2019)

SCJedi said:


> You can but it is better to give it some food and water it all in.


Ok awesome what about using it in my worm bin would that introduce bacteria and fungi that I dont have?


----------



## hillbill (Dec 3, 2019)

Brandon137 said:


> Ok awesome what about using it in my worm bin would that introduce bacteria and fungi that I dont have?


I have brought outdoor pests in that way, like lizards and centipede hoards.


----------



## Brandon137 (Dec 3, 2019)

hillbill said:


> I have brought outdoor pests in that way, like lizards and centipede hoards.


Good point I dont want that


----------



## Chronikool (Dec 8, 2019)

'Bubba '76' in ROLS at harvest


----------



## Lordhooha (Dec 20, 2019)

Chronikool said:


> 'Bubba '76' in ROLS at harvest
> View attachment 4433391


Super pretty plant


----------



## TerrapinBlazin (Dec 24, 2019)

It’s funny I was just about to make a thread asking people about their soil sustainability setups. I hate the term “super soil” because I think it sets the bar really low. All soil should be like it is in nature — a distinct ecosystem of microbes that work to continue the cycle of decay and growth. Nothing “super” about that. Just Mother Nature at work.

I’m an amateur mycologist as well as an amateur horticulturalist, so I’ve been into soil recycling since before I even knew it was a thing. I don’t flush and I add very little liquid nutes throughout the flowering cycle, because most of the magic happens in the big grey bin next to my grow tent. My process is as follows. For building new soil, I start with a dry mix of peat, perlite, and vermiculite, at about 4:3:3. I hydrate that mix with warm water with epsom salt and blackstrap molasses stirred in. I never precisely measure it out, but it’s always about a tablespoon of epsom salt and 1/4 cup of molasses per gallon for new soil.

Once it’s hydrated, I add in some aged, leached horse manure and this stuff from Lowe’s — Jobe’s organic all purpose granular plant food. It’s loaded with good shit, but its main use is as an inoculant because it’s got a lot of beneficial microbes. I mix about a cup and a half of this stuff into the wet soil, and let it sit in the bin for a couple weeks. It’s ready when it no longer smells like shit.

For recycling soil out of pots it is a much simpler matter. I don’t flush, but I do finish with a product that binds salts and apparently triggers a stress response to pump up resin production at the end. It’s called “signal” from true plant science and it seems to do a great job. I’ve got some phenos that I was sure would take 10 weeks that look like they’ll be done in 8.

Once the plants are chopped down, I just break up the root mass, sift out as much root material as possible, and return the soil to the bin and mix everything really well. I don’t usually re-inoculate the used soil with the Jobe’s granules because I always keep enough leftover soil in the bin to act as a starter culture. If I think the nutes have been used up I’ll hit the soil again with everything. After another two weeks any remaining root mass is decomposed and the soil is ready for another round.

The soil that I’m using for these plants has already been recycled twice, and it really seems to get better with age. At this point I only have to buy an occasional bag of perlite or vermiculite. I bought a bale of peat moss at the beginning of the year and I’ve only used about half of it.



Does anyone here have any feedback? After reading about my process can anyone think of anything I could be doing better or differently? My method obviously works but just because something works doesn’t mean there isn’t a better way. I’m going to start adding supplemental silica into the mix with the next grow. I’m wondering if I should just mix in some DE into the soil and if that will be enough or if I should use the liquid supplement I use for clones in addition.


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Dec 24, 2019)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> It’s funny I was just about to make a thread asking people about their soil sustainability setups. I hate the term “super soil” because I think it sets the bar really low. All soil should be like it is in nature — a distinct ecosystem of microbes that work to continue the cycle of decay and growth. Nothing “super” about that. Just Mother Nature at work.
> 
> I’m an amateur mycologist as well as an amateur horticulturalist, so I’ve been into soil recycling since before I even knew it was a thing. I don’t flush and I add very little liquid nutes throughout the flowering cycle, because most of the magic happens in the big grey bin next to my grow tent. My process is as follows. For building new soil, I start with a dry mix of peat, perlite, and vermiculite, at about 4:3:3. I hydrate that mix with warm water with epsom salt and blackstrap molasses stirred in. I never precisely measure it out, but it’s always about a tablespoon of epsom salt and 1/4 cup of molasses per gallon for new soil.
> 
> ...


Beautiful plants. The only thing I could think to add is that I would use pumice or lava rock instead of the perlite or vermiculite. It doesn't brake down like the perlite, only thing is it's heavier.


----------



## TerrapinBlazin (Dec 24, 2019)

That’s good to know. If I could find real pumice that would be cool. I think lava rock is a little too heavy and non-absorbent. The perlite actually holds up pretty well but even the coarse vermiculite that I use pretty much disintegrates after a couple runs.


----------



## hillbill (Dec 25, 2019)

NAPA 8822


----------



## TerrapinBlazin (Dec 25, 2019)

hillbill said:


> NAPA 8822


So basically any DE based product will work. The zep oil spill absorber from Lowe’s should work equally well? I like the idea of using that stuff instead of the horticultural DE which is just ridiculously overpriced.


----------



## TerrapinBlazin (Dec 25, 2019)

So here’s another question. I was reading back down this thread two things really caught me.

Number one is water. I use tap water from the city supply. There is a well that pulls pure groundwater from the aquifer on the property where I live, but it’s a pain in the ass to start. The plumbing is really shitty and I’m leery of running it in the winter.

I live about a quarter mile from the Rio Grande and I would rather use tap water. My only options are the well, an RO dispenser, or tap water, and I’ve been using tap water for convenience. My mom lives close to me and her house is on a well also.

The second thing I was wondering about was harvesting native microbes. I live around a lot of cottonwood trees. When we get enough moisture in the spring they can explode with oyster mushrooms. I would be worried about introducing pleurotus mycelium into my grow because it’s incredibly aggressive and will eat everything, including living plant tissue. I’ve grown oyster mushrooms on newspaper in a plastic shopping bag, I shit you not. The big beneficial fungus in soil AFAIK is Trichoderma harzanium, which is the worst enemy of any psilocybin mushroom grower. Trichoderma is one of the best recyclers around, but it is also parasitic of other fungi, and if you have trichoderma and another genus of fungus growing in the same susbstrate, the trichoderma will always end up eating the other fungus and become dominant. Since trichoderma is everywhere, in every soil and compost, I’ve always felt like getting a good trichoderma population established in the soil is a lot more direct a means to the same end as cultivating more exotic soil microbes.


----------



## hillbill (Dec 25, 2019)

Feed store sells DE for livestock and grain storage cheap. 
That 8822 is like small gravel and acts in the mix like perlite/vermiculite hybrid.


----------



## SCJedi (Dec 27, 2019)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> It’s funny I was just about to make a thread asking people about their soil sustainability setups. I hate the term “super soil” because I think it sets the bar really low. All soil should be like it is in nature — a distinct ecosystem of microbes that work to continue the cycle of decay and growth. Nothing “super” about that. Just Mother Nature at work.
> 
> I’m an amateur mycologist as well as an amateur horticulturalist, so I’ve been into soil recycling since before I even knew it was a thing. I don’t flush and I add very little liquid nutes throughout the flowering cycle, because most of the magic happens in the big grey bin next to my grow tent. My process is as follows. For building new soil, I start with a dry mix of peat, perlite, and vermiculite, at about 4:3:3. I hydrate that mix with warm water with epsom salt and blackstrap molasses stirred in. I never precisely measure it out, but it’s always about a tablespoon of epsom salt and 1/4 cup of molasses per gallon for new soil.
> 
> ...


If it works for you don't change it. But if you want to tweak it...

Over long periods of time in a pot, perlite "floats" to the top and no longer provides the aeration for which it is intended. If it does not float it breaks down into a paste-like cement consistency but it takes a long time to do this. Anything "chunkier" should work better than perlite. While pumice is ideal not everyone lives near volcanos. I personally use GS-1 Growstones which is made from recycled beverage bottle, is about 3/4-, and works awesome. I think that big bag is something like $25 which makes it pricey for large-scale but is fine for my six 30 gallon pots, my lab tent, and my outdoor seed factory.

I don't use vermiculite as my base mix is 1/3 peat, 1/3 GS-1, and 1/3 Mailbu's Compost. The compost and peat will do any moisture retention that I need. From a food standpoint I mix in various things at planting but I also mulch, cover crop and occasionally topdress with EWC and Bu's.


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## TerrapinBlazin (Dec 27, 2019)

I totally get what you’re saying about the perlite. There’s always a thick layer of it on top by the end of flowering. I’ve been using vermiculite out of habit for so many years in both horticulture and mycology that it’s just routine for me to add it in. I appreciate you bringing it up but I also believe it’s a decent source of silica. Maybe not better than DE but it’s cheap. I’m going to start adding DE for the silica and also for moisture indication, but I just haven’t had a chance to stop by Napa. The oil absorber at Lowe’s is fine perlite. I’m not going all over the place looking for an alternative when Napa isn’t that far. I never really used vermiculite for the purpose of holding water but always to give it more “earthiness”. I used to grow mushrooms but switched to weed for the much lower crop failure rate. I’d grow cubensis on 50/50 horse manure and vermiculite and I always thought of the vermiculite as more of a mineral.

The growstones sound badass and I’ll definitely look into them.

I did tweak my soil a bit since I joined this thread. I harvested one plant and returned 7 gallons of soil to the bin. I added a little bone meal this time instead of the all purpose granules. I like bone meal. More than anything I guess it will take time to see how it all works. I only got into growing pot at the beginning of this year. Got so tired of paying way too much for bad bud at the dispensary. This has saved me thousands since I had my first good harvest. I’m just excited to see how the next year of pheno hunting and soil tending goes, and how the plants and soil continue to get better together.


----------



## mrplowdan (Jan 5, 2020)

On page 84 of 465 so far...
The rabbit hole is getting deeper.

This thread has gotten my excited for the upcoming outdoor season. I've located in South Vancouver Island and I've been growing on an off, indoor and outdoor for 20ish years. Always just been growing for myself and haven't put a lot of effort into growing (I'm very much an amateur).

The last few years I've been growing in my little 1'x1'x2' home made grow box in a continuous cycle. As it's only a foot tall I harvest about 3 little trees a week, they are about 15g dry. Very cute.

I've always left the outdoor plants for my better half to care for. But now that it's legal it's time to step it up (love you baby if you somehow found this site/thread/my post).

I'm all new to organics and have just used GH Nova series in a nutrient free medium. I may be baked, tried from reading for 5 hrs, but I think I'm convinced to totally switch over to organic. I'm planning on buying 4 x 30 gal fabric bags.

I'm already planning on going down to the beach and collecting bull kelp, and oyster and crab shells. I need to read up on composting. There is an old compost bin in the back of my yard that hasn't been used in 10 years... It seems too small though. I'm near the forest so I'm sure I can find some decent dirt. Hopefully I'll be able to produce some compost by spring.

I have a bunch of posts favorited in this thread already to review later. I'm only up to the end of 2013 so I haven't really come up with a recipe yet.


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## TerrapinBlazin (Jan 5, 2020)

mrplowdan said:


> On page 84 of 465 so far...
> The rabbit hole is getting deeper.
> 
> This thread has gotten my excited for the upcoming outdoor season. I've located in South Vancouver Island and I've been growing on an off, indoor and outdoor for 20ish years. Always just been growing for myself and haven't put a lot of effort into growing (I'm very much an amateur).
> ...


Sounds like you’ve got a great situation. I’ve always wanted to visit Vancouver Island. I’ve got a friend up there that grows shrooms and is a mod on the shroomery. If you want to do outdoors in living soil you will need a lot. It’s probably wet enough out there that you can compost in an open basket instead of a bin, and you will need a lot of compost, so I would recommend a compost basket made out of 4x4 posts and chicken wire. I would make it about two cubic yards (two full scoops of a bobcat bucket if that helps any).

I know this is getting out of soil territory and into construction, but I would recommend building a 3x3’, 18 inch raised box for each plant. You can do them in the ground too, like I did last year, but I think I’ll get a better yield if they start in better soil and only go into the ground once they’re established in the composted soil.


You can throw pretty much any organic waste into a compost and it will improve it. Kitchen scraps, egg shells, and all that stuff you find on the beach will be great. There’s an outdoor grower here who helped me a lot with this outdoor grow. I can’t remember her handle but it was ganjagurl something and she gave me loads of good advice on my outdoor grow. When you’re ready to get these planted head over to the outdoor growing forum and find her. IIRC she mentioned doing raised boxes with straight horse manure and posted a pic of a main stem much bigger around than her entire wrist.

All I can do now is describe to you my method and philosophy that is very much founded in the disciplines of mycology and microbiology. Living soil is an underground ecosystem, just like the soil in your backyard which is also technically living soil.

The fir trees grow with the help of their symbiotic amanita muscaria mushroom, and also with the help of trichoderma and bacillus and lactobacillus and actinomyces and countless more. The organic contents of the soil are important, but that stuff is there to feed the microbes, which digest it into forms that the plants like. I don’t have an outdoor compost bin and I don’t compost any raw organic material. The only thing I’m interested in composting for my indoor growing is leftover roots in my recycled soil. I keep it all in a storage bin in my grow room. The actual soil is comprised of peat, vermiculite, and perlite. That’s the non-nutritious substrate (unless you count the silica in the verm which I do). To this I add field aged horse manure, for the nitrogen and actinomyces. I also add bone meal, epsom salt, blackstrap molasses, and an all purpose organic granular plant for from Lowe’s. Jobe’s all purpose granules.

The granules are made from bone meal, feather meal, and chicken shit, but they’re also loaded with microbes and that’s why I buy the stuff. I use it to inoculate my compost and I also mix some into my flowering pots for time released nutes.

One other caveat, is that I don’t use this as a replacement for liquid feeding, but rather a supplement. I still use liquid nutes in flower, and still have to hit my vegging plants with fish emulsion every now and then. I cultivate my soil this way because the plants do better in this environment than they would with just a plain soil mix and ion based ferts. It’s like the difference between drinking a protein shake and eating a USDA prime porterhouse. They’ll both give you what you need, but you’ll be a lot happier about the steak.

You can grow fine plants in miracle gro soil, feeding nothing but ammonium nitrate, ammonium phosphate, and potash salt. Who would want to, when they can grow organic instead, is what I can’t figure out.


----------



## mrplowdan (Jan 6, 2020)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> Sounds like you’ve got a great situation. I’ve always wanted to visit Vancouver Island. I’ve got a friend up there that grows shrooms and is a mod on the shroomery.


The old lady and I had a couple grams of shrooms each on New Year's, it had been about a decade since the last time lol.



TerrapinBlazin said:


> If you want to do outdoors in living soil you will need a lot. It’s probably wet enough out there that you can compost in an open basket instead of a bin, and you will need a lot of compost, so I would recommend a compost basket made out of 4x4 posts and chicken wire. I would make it about two cubic yards (two full scoops of a bobcat bucket if that helps any).


That's a good idea, I may do that.



TerrapinBlazin said:


> I know this is getting out of soil territory and into construction, but I would recommend building a 3x3’, 18 inch raised box for each plant. You can do them in the ground too, like I did last year, but I think I’ll get a better yield if they start in better soil and only go into the ground once they’re established in the composted soil.


I kinda have to use some sort of bag/pot. The best light is right next to my house and I don't want to put a bed in that area.



TerrapinBlazin said:


> You can throw pretty much any organic waste into a compost and it will improve it. Kitchen scraps, egg shells, and all that stuff you find on the beach will be great.


Already starting to keep my peels and shells, instead of chucking then into the bush 



TerrapinBlazin said:


> There’s an outdoor grower here who helped me a lot with this outdoor grow. I can’t remember her handle but it was ganjagurl something and she gave me loads of good advice on my outdoor grow. When you’re ready to get these planted head over to the outdoor growing forum and find her. IIRC she mentioned doing raised boxes with straight horse manure and posted a pic of a main stem much bigger around than her entire wrist.


I may lurk over there for a bit, perhaps even join in. I'm generally an introvert.



TerrapinBlazin said:


> All I can do now is describe to you my method and philosophy that is very much founded in the disciplines of mycology and microbiology. Living soil is an underground ecosystem, just like the soil in your backyard which is also technically living soil.
> 
> The fir trees grow with the help of their symbiotic amanita muscaria mushroom, and also with the help of trichoderma and bacillus and lactobacillus and actinomyces and countless more. The organic contents of the soil are important, but that stuff is there to feed the microbes, which digest it into forms that the plants like. I don’t have an outdoor compost bin and I don’t compost any raw organic material. The only thing I’m interested in composting for my indoor growing is leftover roots in my recycled soil. I keep it all in a storage bin in my grow room. The actual soil is comprised of peat, vermiculite, and perlite. That’s the non-nutritious substrate (unless you count the silica in the verm which I do). To this I add field aged horse manure, for the nitrogen and actinomyces. I also add bone meal, epsom salt, blackstrap molasses, and an all purpose organic granular plant for from Lowe’s. Jobe’s all purpose granules.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the advice TerrapinBlazin.


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## mrplowdan (Jan 7, 2020)

TerrapinBlazin said:


> ... you will need a lot of compost, so I would recommend a compost basket made out of 4x4 posts and chicken wire. I would make it about two cubic yards (two full scoops of a bobcat bucket if that helps any).


Wouldn't I only need about 0.2 cubic yards to fill 4 x 30 gallon pots with the not 2 cubic yards?
Well not fill, it'll be 1/3 compost in each bag/pot.


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## SCJedi (Jan 7, 2020)

mrplowdan said:


> Wouldn't I only need about 0.2 cubic yards to fill 4 x 30 gallon pots with the not 2 cubic yards?
> Well not fill, it'll be 1/3 compost in each bag/pot.


It takes approximately 1CuYd for me to fill my six 30g pots. Here is a calculator: https://www.smartpots.com/price-range/


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## mrplowdan (Jan 7, 2020)

SCJedi said:


> It takes approximately 1CuYd for me to fill my six 30g pots. Here is a calculator: https://www.smartpots.com/price-range/


Ok cool, I calculated it right. 0.6 cubic yards for 4 x 30 gal. Therefore, 0.2 cubic yards* of compost if I'm doing a 1/3 compost, 1/3 peat, 1/3 aeration.

*edit* orig post had gallons


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## hillbill (Jan 8, 2020)

A cubic yard 202 gallons US


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## TerrapinBlazin (Jan 8, 2020)

Nah I wasn’t saying you need two cubic yards of compost, but I think that’s a good sized basket to shoot for. There’s nothing I hate more than running out of material in the middle of a project.


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## SovereignGrowing2020 (Jan 21, 2020)

Man organic no till is the best way to grow. It makes the most sense. Old ways forgotten by a scheme of the pharmaceutical or poison industry. We were meant to live for so much more!


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 24, 2020)

SovereignGrowing2020 said:


> Man organic no till is the best way to grow. It makes the most sense. Old ways forgotten by a scheme of the pharmaceutical or poison industry. We were meant to live for so much more!


I get lost watching the life in my soil! My new hobby is waking up before lights on so I can watch the worms retreat to their burrows. It's fascinating.


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## Hiero1 (Jan 26, 2020)

Baby worms are cute.


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## Polyuro (Jan 26, 2020)

Looking to get buy some seeds now that Missouri is legal. Would like to find a strain for anxiety and and a strain for insomnia. Any info and suggestions would be great!!


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 27, 2020)

Polyuro said:


> Looking to get buy some seeds now that Missouri is legal. Would like to find a strain for anxiety and and a strain for insomnia. Any info and suggestions would be great!!


Do you have a medical card?


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## Polyuro (Jan 27, 2020)

4ftRoots said:


> Do you have a medical card?


Yes. Government approves.


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## 4ftRoots (Jan 27, 2020)

Polyuro said:


> Yes. Government approves.


Very nice man! Congratulations!


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## DankDave420 (Feb 1, 2020)

Where can I learn the basics? I'm paying over $30 a bag for Happy Frog and throwing it away after every grow. Is this possible to do entirely indoors?


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## hillbill (Feb 1, 2020)

You can do it all indoors and I use at least 50% used mix in my mixes. It gets better all the time.


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## 4ftRoots (Feb 1, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> Where can I learn the basics? I'm paying over $30 a bag for Happy Frog and throwing it away after every grow. Is this possible to do entirely indoors?


First page of this thread. Everything is gold. The mix is at the bottom by cann. Look around on icmag too. They are brilliant people.

Also look into terra preta. My soil is based on it and is very alive. Even in small 1/2 gallon cactus pots.

Kis organics also has a great podcast. Lots of great information from microbe man and coot. The pioneers of this grow technique. 

Elaine Ingham has some great talks and the book teaming with microbes is well worth the price on Amazon.


----------



## Polyuro (Feb 1, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> Where can I learn the basics? I'm paying over $30 a bag for Happy Frog and throwing it away after every grow. Is this possible to do entirely indoors?








Green's Wedding Cake, sip, probiotics


I feel you there. that was my 2017 and 2018.... 2019 is gonna be a different story. already off to a great start. feel like this year is gonna be a win bongsmilie I don't know man, seems complete enough for tonight to me lol. I saw you put up the 1st post an hour ago and now there's like...



www.rollitup.org





This is a good place to start. Unbelievable results.


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## lokie (Feb 1, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> Where can I learn the basics? I'm paying over $30 a bag for Happy Frog and throwing it away after every grow. Is this possible to do entirely indoors?


Space availability is the main key. Do you have space to store and mix organic compost? If you live in an apartment things may be a bit more difficult.

Compost components + time + storage space can provide you with a recyclable product that can be a water only to harvest experience.


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## DankDave420 (Feb 1, 2020)

I'm just trying to figure out if this is right for me. I have some extra space to work with but my bloom tent is only 32x32". 
Trying to minimize my noob questions. A couple quick ones. 
What minimum pot size and type of pot would I need to work with? 
Is it worth it for a 32x32 grow space? 
Another thing I have to consider is right now I grow from reg seed so I'm in a quantity over quality situation. 3 gallon is my sweet spot because I can fit 9 in. If 3 gallon isn't big enough I will have to change my game up.


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## lokie (Feb 2, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> I'm just trying to figure out if this is right for me. I have some extra space to work with but my bloom tent is only 32x32".
> Trying to minimize my noob questions. A couple quick ones.
> What minimum pot size and type of pot would I need to work with?
> Is it worth it for a 32x32 grow space?
> Another thing I have to consider is right now I grow from reg seed so I'm in a quantity over quality situation. 3 gallon is my sweet spot because I can fit 9 in. If 3 gallon isn't big enough I will have to change my game up.


A 3 gal pot will grow a nice plant. I'm considering trying 1 gal pots in a 4x4 tent.
I have flowered in 1 gal pots with success. Some here at RIU get into 12/12 grow offs using red solo cups.
Just remember bigger pot = bigger plant potential. if using smaller pot shorten the veg time.

home composting organic mix $$ vs commercial organic bagged $$ ?
I have not deciphered if I'm actually saving money.
I like the control of what goes in and that only watering from seed to harvest is easy.

While many things can help increase your grow efficiency, LIGHT is always the first place to start upgrading.

Good luck and Happy growing!


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## hillbill (Feb 2, 2020)

Using 5 quarts of mix in 6 quart waste baskets, easy to handle and move, gets the job done with smaller trained plants


----------



## Hiero1 (Feb 2, 2020)




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## Hiero1 (Feb 2, 2020)

Just follow the build a soil system. I just rotate the smart pots. When I harvest it's goes back in the veg room. It's all about building a thick mulch layer.


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## DankDave420 (Feb 2, 2020)

Thanks guys. I just kept seeing people say you had to have 5 gallon or bigger. I don't veg long, just long enough to get them topped. I am happy with my set up I just hate paying 35 bucks a bag and tossing it. There are no grow stores near me. I already bought a bag so it gives me time to research this for next grow. Very helpful thread.


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## hillbill (Feb 2, 2020)

Buying Sphagnum peatm moss and perlite in big bags or bales helps. Been using Walmart “American Countryside” topsoil successfully in mix for about a year which is mostly composted pine bark “fines”. Homemade earthworm castings are awesome.


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## lokie (Feb 2, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> I don't veg long, just long enough to get them topped.


A 1 gal pot can support this style.

I have grown in a 1 gal and topped at the 5th node, then used the top as a clone, and flowered the "mother" plant in the same 1 gal pot.

There is no "THE CORRECT WAY" recipe.


----------



## DonPetro (Feb 4, 2020)

Hiero1 said:


> View attachment 4470013


Beans?! Thats a great idea!


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## DankDave420 (Feb 5, 2020)

I've been researching this stuff for days now. I've been so close to buying so many recipes. What if I wanted to reuse FF Happy Frog and keep it at least as good as it started? What would be the basic steps to achieve this?
Would you have to introduce more biology into the soil and then allow it to "cook" before using?
Or would you just need to focus on amending during and/or after the grow?


----------



## DankDave420 (Feb 5, 2020)

I am a noob. 
I want to convey that I understand the basics of living soils, but I'm completely lost. 

Maybe a better question I could ask is what makes standard Happy Frog or Ocean forest not reusable? 
Is it just too weak basically? Not enough biologicals?


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## hillbill (Feb 5, 2020)

All organic mixes are by definition, reusable. Not over complicated.


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## 4ftRoots (Feb 5, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> I am a noob.
> I want to convey that I understand the basics of living soils, but I'm completely lost.
> 
> Maybe a better question I could ask is what makes standard Happy Frog or Ocean forest not reusable?
> Is it just too weak basically? Not enough biologicals?


Just make sure to use something other than perlite for aeration.


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## DankDave420 (Feb 7, 2020)

When you recycle your soil do you need to test it or anything?


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## hillbill (Feb 7, 2020)

I don’t
It’s simpler than it seems


----------



## DankDave420 (Feb 8, 2020)

Thanks everyone. This thread was so helpful. I have most of my materials ordered and I feel fairly confident I will have a good soil and nutrient regiment.


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## DankDave420 (Feb 9, 2020)

When recycling soil, do you need to add more humus??


----------



## 4ftRoots (Feb 9, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> When recycling soil, do you need to add more humus??


When organic matter forms you also get humus. So just keep adding back organic matter and you will be fine.


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## hillbill (Feb 9, 2020)

Worm farming IS all that.


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## DankDave420 (Feb 9, 2020)

hillbill said:


> Worm farming IS all that.


Yeah I have been looking into this morning already!! I live on a lake too so could serve multiple purposes.


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## hillbill (Feb 9, 2020)

With that in mind make sure to some European night crawlers which are easier to hook and break down vermicompost further than red wrigglers.


----------



## TeddyNugget (Feb 9, 2020)

Sorry if this video was already posted. I am just starting to learn about true living soil growing and Korean natural farming, etc, so I found this video interesting. I’ve done organic for years, and made my own soils but haven’t attempted the true living soil (indoors) yet.


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## Polyuro (Feb 9, 2020)

Does this mix look like it will work? Working on my first soil mix and also not sure about quantities.. Thanks in advanced for any opinions and facts!

Bu’s compost
Potting media - peat moss base

Kelp meal
Neem cake
Gypsum
Crab/lobster shell
Alfalfa
Oyster shell
Langebeinite
Azomite
Em-1
grokashi
Mycos

Also have on hand:
Dolomite lime 
Agricultural lime
Bone meal 
blood meal
Green sand
Vermiculite
Eww (store bought though..)

Putting this into a earthbox sip.


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## Mohican (Feb 13, 2020)

I have my worries about alfalfa.


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## hillbill (Feb 14, 2020)

Mohican said:


> I have my worries about alfalfa.


Alfalfa i# magic.


----------



## Mr Westmont (Feb 15, 2020)

Hey guys, wanted to jump in with my first post ever. Long time lurker (10 years), and have learned a lot just by reading. Switched over to the no till organic method last year. Nothing but easy growing, pest free, and good dense, dank buds. Excellent yields. My vegetable garden is now producing more than ever with the same method.


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## hillbill (Feb 15, 2020)

Been here since 2009 and lurked the first 5 years as paranoias strike deep. Most all of what I know of indoor gardening has been learned here and a couple other sites since gardens are banned here. Never get to see gardens or equipment or anything else so it’s been education online.


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## MrKnotty (Feb 18, 2020)

Well we have a room of these beautiful ladies just ready for the greenhouse. ROLS for the win as always friends.

Peace


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## MrKnotty (Feb 18, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> When recycling soil, do you need to add more humus??


I do every year.....I like to rotate what I add but it's always a 50/50 blend of rice hulls and either compost or worm castings.


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## MrKnotty (Feb 18, 2020)

Gardens are banned here? What does that mean.


hillbill said:


> Been here since 2009 and lurked the first 5 years as paranoias strike deep. Most all of what I know of indoor gardening has been learned here and a couple other sites since gardens are banned here. Never get to see gardens or equipment or anything else so it’s been education online.


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## Polyuro (Feb 18, 2020)

MrKnotty said:


> I do every year.....I like to rotate what I add but it's always a 50/50 blend of rice hulls and either compost or worm castings.


Not in a legal state yet most probably


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## DankDave420 (Feb 20, 2020)

Hi  
I have my soil all mixed up, all I need to do is moisten it. Would it be beneficial to wet it with AACT now or should I just use water?


----------



## smokeybeard (Feb 20, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> Hi
> I have my soil all mixed up, all I need to do is moisten it. Would it be beneficial to wet it with AACT now or should I just use water?


I would think the AACT would give it a nice kick start but plain unchlorinated water would also do fine.


----------



## Wizard of Nozs (Feb 23, 2020)

Speaking of water. Have any of you ever tried to water with carbonated water?



https://www.hunker.com/12476437/the-effect-of-carbonated-water-on-plant-growth




It looks like if you do it slowly in a drip style, it has pretty good benefits. Doing it too fast can change the ph of the soil though. Could the ph effect be corrected with amendments before it's used like a tea? We all know or at least have heard of the benefits of Co2. It's not too far fetched to think something similar could be possible with the roots.

Dare we take a trip?


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## DankDave420 (Feb 23, 2020)

This is what I ended up making. First attempt at this.  

Approx:
2 cu. ft. sphagnum peat 
50 lb pure EWC
5 lb rice hulls, 10 liters hydroton
(Still need some pumice, aiming for equal parts by volume)

Amended with:
3 cups Nature's Pride Bloom 2-5.5-5.5
1.5 cups Kelp Meal w/microbes 1-0.5-2
1 cup azomite
1 cup bat guano 9-3-1
(Think I still need to add some dolomite)

I think it needs more aeration and dolomite for pH. Might even need a little more sphagnum. 
It looks like it's activating already. May cover it with clover for color.


----------



## Mohican (Feb 23, 2020)

H2O2 water is beneficial.

Microwaved water is also beneficial.


----------



## MICHI-CAN (Feb 23, 2020)

Just a couple questions guys. I'm "semi" organic. So you'll most likely want to beat me with sticks. But I am full organic outdoors with all my gardening practices. 1 isn't H2O2 hydrogen peroxide. Anti fungal / bacterial. Both good and bad. 2 sphagnum moss deteriorates into a slimy breeding ground for harmful fungus in a very short time. As i have learned from my few years growing orchids.


----------



## MICHI-CAN (Feb 23, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> I'm confused. Anybody have any comments about my soil?


Apologies Dank. Just saw some things that distracted me. Yes you need to amend. I personally don't add any humus. Fresh compost contains plenty.


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## 4ftRoots (Feb 24, 2020)

Mohican said:


> H2O2 water is beneficial.
> 
> Microwaved water is also beneficial.


How is microwaved water helpful? Never heard that one


----------



## Mohican (Feb 24, 2020)

They tested it on myth busters. I read an article about structured water and that rain is structured. I am guessing that microwaving also structures the water. I base this on the fact that you can super heat water in a microwave.


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## PadawanWarrior (Feb 24, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> This is what I ended up making. First attempt at this.
> 
> Approx:
> 2 cu. ft. sphagnum peat
> ...


Sounds like a decent start, but I would've used another type of compost in there too, instead of all EWC for the compost. Ya, and get some pumice. I'm still pretty new to no-till though, so take my advice with a grain of salt, lol. Oyster shell flower also works for pH and Ca, but doesn't have the Mg that dolomite has. And one of my new favorite amendments is chicken shit, thanks @Richard Drysift for getting me interested in it.


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## DankDave420 (Feb 24, 2020)

PadawanWarrior said:


> Sounds like a decent start, but I would've used another type of compost in there too, instead of all EWC for the compost. Ya, and get some pumice. I'm still pretty new to no-till though, so take my advice with a grain of salt, lol. Oyster shell flower also works for pH and Ca, but doesn't have the Mg that dolomite has. And one of my new favorite amendments is chicken shit, thanks @Richard Drysift for getting me interested in it.


Thanks. It feels a little heavy to me. I def will be adding pumice. I would like to get it fluffy like Happy Frog. I guess happy frog is 50% aged forest products. I also do have a bag of Happy Frog in use that will be recycled back into the mix. In hind sight I probably should have started with Happy Frog as my base. 
Do you have a recommendation for compost?


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Feb 25, 2020)

DankDave420 said:


> Thanks. It feels a little heavy to me. I def will be adding pumice. I would like to get it fluffy like Happy Frog. I guess happy frog is 50% aged forest products. I also do have a bag of Happy Frog in use that will be recycled back into the mix. In hind sight I probably should have started with Happy Frog as my base.
> Do you have a recommendation for compost?


I used my old FFOF as a base for my no-till soil, then added all kinds of other shit (lava rock, pumice, vermicompost, bio-char, rice hulls, Craft Blend from Build a Soil, and a few other things) . So I would definitely add the Happy Frog to the mix if I were you. It's definitely a decent base.


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Feb 25, 2020)

Mohican said:


> They tested it on myth busters. I read an article about structured water and that rain is structured. I am guessing that microwaving also structures the water. I base this on the fact that you can super heat water in a microwave.


Have you ever read the Canabible? It is mostly a pictorial and dudes experiences going around to a lot of grow ops.. the pertinence to this.. is there is one farm her visits that SWEARS by things like rose water left ONLY in the sun for 3 days or water that is only collected during a lighting storm. The author swears it works and the smoke is the proof .. obviously nothing anywhere near a real "study" anything lol, but I thought it was funny.... that is also when I began to realize to take that shit with a grain of salt lol


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## hillbill (Feb 25, 2020)

Picked up several bags of “Topsoil” at Megalamart LST summer, turns out it has a big amount of composted pine bark fines and have been using at 10% of my ROLS with happy results. Adds structure and carbon and has had all my plants healthy.


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## echoe (Mar 9, 2020)

Total noob looking for help! I was just wondering if there is a straight forward and affordable recipe that I can follow for a successful first time outdoor grow. Also if anybody can tell me how long can recyclable soil be recycled before it needs more added to it? I am new to mixing my own soil and am feeling a little overwhelmed with all the information.


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## sega megadrive (Mar 9, 2020)

echoe go back to the start of this thread its a good read maybe the builder soil web site if your American all you need you can get there. basically if your American its gonna be real easy for you to get started. on the recycle part your gonna be adding things when you recycle it like worm castings kelp neem crabmeal an more it doesn't need to be hard keep it simple


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## Wizard of Nozs (Mar 9, 2020)

You can always look at the no till threads and journals. They usually all have recipes. I have a recipe in my first post of my current journal that I currently use. Once you make it, you just use normal tap water as long as its not water from flint michigan, you should be able to use it over and over without having to resupply it too much with nutrients. GL.


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## DankDave420 (Mar 10, 2020)

echoe said:


> Total noob looking for help! I was just wondering if there is a straight forward and affordable recipe that I can follow for a successful first time outdoor grow. Also if anybody can tell me how long can recyclable soil be recycled before it needs more added to it? I am new to mixing my own soil and am feeling a little overwhelmed with all the information.


I agree, first page of this thread, Cann has a good recipe. Build a soil website. Research recipes, compare the ingredients. 

It's all the same basic stuff. You can buy them pre-mixed in an all purpose, or buy the ingredients separately, like from Down To Earth and mix them yourself. 

If you really want an easy foolproof method, just buy a good pre-mixed soil and an all purpose organic fertilizer to get you started.


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## Hiero1 (Mar 13, 2020)

[ATTACH1I'm=full]4503812[/ATTACH] round 6..... oni's afgahni peach. Worms and critters grow my pot. So green and healthy.


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## Bignutes (Mar 15, 2020)

When you guys use ewc in your soil do you find it severely limits drainage? I don't know if my ewc supply is junk but if I add 6% ewc into a mix that's 44% aeration - (17% rice hulls, 7% perlite, 21% lava pebbles) the drainage sucks. I drop it to 3% ewc and it's noticeably better. Ewc is like glue!


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## Bignutes (Mar 15, 2020)

PadawanWarrior said:


> Sounds like a decent start, but I would've used another type of compost in there too, instead of all EWC for the compost. Ya, and get some pumice. I'm still pretty new to no-till though, so take my advice with a grain of salt, lol. Oyster shell flower also works for pH and Ca, but doesn't have the Mg that dolomite has. And one of my new favorite amendments is chicken shit, thanks @Richard Drysift for getting me interested in it.


I have a bead on this chicken shit compost product: seems to check off a few boxes for rols, what do you guys think as a foundation fertilizer?









Replenish 5-4-5 : EarthWorks


Replenish 5-4-5 Replenish 5-4-5 is an organic and mineral based soil and plant food and is the “Flagship” of the EarthWorks product line. Replenish 5-4-5 is an all-purpose formulated with our organic poultry…




www.earthworksturf.com


----------



## hillbill (Mar 15, 2020)

I like individual meals and minerals as well as a similar poultry product. EWC can be soupy and your other compost and 45% drainage may not be enough, rice hull will degrade also quite quickly and not provide drainage expected


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## Bignutes (Mar 15, 2020)

I'm good with the rice hulls they aren't the problem right now and when they break down which I'm counting on they provide potassium and silica. It's the ewc that bungs it up.


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## 4ftRoots (Mar 15, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> When you guys use ewc in your soil do you find it severely limits drainage? I don't know if my ewc supply is junk but if I add 6% ewc into a mix that's 44% aeration - (17% rice hulls, 7% perlite, 21% lava pebbles) the drainage sucks. I drop it to 3% ewc and it's noticeably better. Ewc is like glue!


What are all your inputs? If you are mixing with topsoil vs peat you are going to have a heavy mix. Also, not sure on the lava pebbles, but if they are too small they will not add proper drainage. I have mixed with 33% EWC bought from the store and never had a problem. I do know they add sand as a filler though...


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## Bignutes (Mar 15, 2020)

The 3 in 1 is a medium heavy mix, it's got compost, peat and top soil in unknown proportions. I used it straight the first time with minor issues on drainage and compaction, but it didn't have the proper aeration and the root ball was small. So I cut with more aeration.

Mix is
31% 3 in 1 bag soil
17% Rice hulls
7% perlite
16% peat
2% diatamaceous earth
3% ewc
21% volcanic 3-10 mm

Amendments are kelp, alfalfa, powdered egg shells, bone, blood, soft rock phosphate, shrimp shells

What is the texture of your ewc? Mine I think is cut with clay top soil. It's extremely cohesive and by itself water doesn't penetrate thru it.


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## hillbill (Mar 16, 2020)

EWC are like that, also DE can combine with compost fines or EWC answers begin to gum up drain holes. What is 5he 3 in 1 soil composition? If it is potting soil and not potting mix, it will need more drainage also. Are you familiar with NAPA 8822 Floor Dry? It is expanded DE which acts like Vermiculite providing some absorption and nutrient retention along with drainage, been using for 10 years.


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## Bignutes (Mar 16, 2020)

I will definitely look into floor dry, used it at work. Composition of 3 in 1 is classified as loam on the bag, but I suspect it's on the heavier side of loam. Ok I will add more aeration. Thank you for the floor dry tip!


----------



## Snoopy808 (Mar 16, 2020)

Funny guy


----------



## wil2279 (Mar 16, 2020)

I used an autoflower super soil mix with a bag of organic potting soil for my current autoflower grow. I have watered with water and occasionally water with molasses. I plan to use organic dry ammendments and another bag of potting soil to mix with the soil I am currently using to make my soil for my next grow...


----------



## Snoopy808 (Mar 17, 2020)

Ive used alfalfa pellets to boost OM and feed my worms in my beds. Anyone use Bio-live? Its pricey but the ingredients listed would help in tailoring soil mix or amendments.
As far as no till cannabis its ok ive never done it. I do use cover crops in some gardens, but you got to till them in to get OM and N+ benefits. Then reseed again after you transplant.


----------



## Bignutes (Mar 17, 2020)

Snoopy808 said:


> Ive used alfalfa pellets to boost OM and feed my worms in my beds. Anyone use Bio-live? Its pricey but the ingredients listed would help in tailoring soil mix or amendments.
> As far as no till cannabis its ok ive never done it. I do use cover crops in some gardens, but you got to till them in to get OM and N+ benefits. Then reseed again after you transplant.


When you plant legumes you dont have to till to get N because they fix nitrogen in their roots.


----------



## Snoopy808 (Mar 17, 2020)

Yes you do. That nitrogen wont get released via decomposition till plant is dead.
Azos, azotobacter bacterias are freeliving nitrogen fixers that do not need plsnt roots as a symbiotic host. You can get it at grow shops. Keep in mind nitrogen fixing plants and bacteria need good levels of calcium and phosphorus to thrive.
I had to add tons of cal-phos to orchards to get clover and vetch seed to take hold.


----------



## Snoopy808 (Mar 17, 2020)

Maybe not actually till you could do cut and drop. Mow or weed eat low enough to kill it works fine too.


----------



## DonBrennon (Mar 17, 2020)

Snoopy808 said:


> Yes you do. That nitrogen wont get released via decomposition till plant is dead.
> Azos, azotobacter bacterias are freeliving nitrogen fixers that do not need plsnt roots as a symbiotic host. You can get it at grow shops. Keep in mind nitrogen fixing plants and bacteria need good levels of calcium and phosphorus to thrive.
> I had to add tons of cal-phos to orchards to get clover and vetch seed to take hold.


Yup, that nitrogen is locked up in the rhizome nodules, till it's dead at least


----------



## Bignutes (Mar 17, 2020)

The debate isn't whether it needs to be dead, that's a given, it is that you don't have to till it in, ie mulch or work up, the nitrogen nodules are already in the soil......like the term no till.


----------



## Snoopy808 (Mar 17, 2020)

True. But if you plant and dont do anything you are waiting for the plant to finish its life cycle. Some beans can get rather tall, not talking bout pole beans. And need around 60 days or longer to complete their life cycle. Plus the rhizobacteria need to be present in the soil, added or use innoculated seed (there's organic sources ) otherwise they are not fixing nitrogen just fixing carbon.
I seed after harvest in fall with clover if needed and buckwheat and brown millet. Shallow till it in when ready to plant in spring and before the grain sets seed. The clover usually grows back and isn't tall like the millet or buckwheat can be and get too close to bottom branches.


----------



## Bignutes (Mar 17, 2020)

Snoopy808 said:


> True. But if you plant and dont do anything you are waiting for the plant to finish its life cycle. Some beans can get rather tall, not talking bout pole beans. And need around 60 days or longer to complete their life cycle. Plus the rhizobacteria need to be present in the soil, added or use innoculated seed (there's organic sources ) otherwise they are not fixing nitrogen just fixing carbon.
> I seed after harvest in fall with clover if needed and buckwheat and brown millet. Shallow till it in when ready to plant in spring and before the grain sets seed. The clover usually grows back and isn't tall like the millet or buckwheat can be and get too close to bottom branches.


That's a pretty good setup your running, I like it.


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## mrplowdan (Apr 14, 2020)

Hi all,

I'm prepping for my outdoor and I have everything I need for the base soil except for the aeration.

I already have my 10 cufeet of compost, 10 cufeet of peat, a bucket of glacial rock dust (I need more). I'm planning on going down to the ocean to collect some kelp and clam shells to make some kelp meal and some more rock dust. Still looking for neem meal too.

*Anyone know where I can get 10 cufeet of crushed pumice or lava rock or rice even hulls on Vancouver Island?*

I'm having a hell of a time finding any. GardenWorks has pumice but they're closed due to C19 and they aren't taking order for another week - waiting to hear the price too.

Getting regular lava rock and taking a hammer to 10 cufeet of it, then sifting, seems like "fun" but it may be my only option.


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Apr 14, 2020)

mrplowdan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm prepping for my outdoor and I have everything I need for the base soil except for the aeration.
> 
> ...


Build a Soil has all that.








BuildASoil: Organic Living Soil, Fertilizers, and Soil Amendments


Everything you need to grow no-till with organic living soil. Our mission is to support organic gardeners and to provide the best products and information on how to use them. We carry pre mixed super soil, living soil, organic soil fertilizers, organic water soluble nutrients, soil minerals...




buildasoil.com


----------



## mrplowdan (Apr 14, 2020)

PadawanWarrior said:


> Build a Soil has all that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Shipping is a bit much, ha!


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Apr 14, 2020)

mrplowdan said:


> Shipping is a bit much, ha!
> 
> View attachment 4533780


That's crazy.


----------



## Comfrey (Apr 17, 2020)

mrplowdan said:


> Hi all,
> 
> I'm prepping for my outdoor and I have everything I need for the base soil except for the aeration.
> 
> ...


I've found bagged pumice from my local nursery in Langley, from a brand called Cinnabar Valley Farms (their potting soil is nice too). https://www.cinnabarfarms.com/product/00/0576/Growell-Pumice-12L-50plt . They're located in Nanaimo, perhaps they could sell to you in bulk. I think I paid about $6.50 Canadian per bag.


----------



## mrplowdan (Apr 17, 2020)

Comfrey said:


> I've found bagged pumice from my local nursery in Langley, from a brand called Cinnabar Valley Farms (their potting soil is nice too). https://www.cinnabarfarms.com/product/00/0576/Growell-Pumice-12L-50plt . They're located in Nanaimo, perhaps they could sell to you in bulk. I think I paid about $6.50 Canadian per bag.


Thanks a lot!

I've contacted them and hopefully they sell to a nearby store.

They only sell soil direct to customers but I also asked if they'd sell me 100L bulk.

Thanks again


----------



## Mohican (Apr 17, 2020)

Check with local landscaping companies. They sell organic compost by the yard.


----------



## mrplowdan (Apr 17, 2020)

mrplowdan said:


> Thanks a lot!
> 
> I've contacted them and hopefully they sell to a nearby store.
> 
> ...


Yahoo, found a local source. Buckerfields

From: *info* <[email protected]>
Date: Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 8:51 AM
Subject: RE: Growell Pumice 12L 50/plt
To: Dan <redacted>

Good Morning and thank you for your email.

It looks like the stores that we have sent to in the past few months would be

Buckerfields Langford
GardenWorks Victoria Blenkinsop

Good luck in your search!

Best regards,

Emma Winters

*Cinnabar Valley Farms Ltd*
Head Office: 250 758 7888
*Warehouse Office *
2321 Cienar Drive, Nanaimo, B.C., V9T 3L6
Tel: 250.758.7888 Fx: 250.758.8883
[email protected]
www.cinnabarfarms.com
* 
Farm & Production Location *
1980 Richardson Road, Nanaimo, B.C.


----------



## BluntMoniker (Apr 17, 2020)

What do you guys use as a means of pest prevention when bringing organic compost into an indoors grow?

I've been looking into ROLS since my grow is organic anyway, and I have a nice compost pile outside.. but I've always been told never bring outside, inside, so I'm concerned with the best way to accomplish this without investing my tent.

My compost makeup:
80% Chicken Manure/Pine Shaving (Deep Litter)
10% local soil (from flipping/stirring)
10% misc (crushed clam/oyster/mussel shell, grass clippings, egg shells, chicken feathers, kitchen scraps, used coffee grounds, crushed granite left over from kitchen remodel, diatomaceous earth, perlite, used "sunshine mix #4" from previous grows, EWC from local worms in the compost)

Obviously I dont want to bake the compost and kill off the beneficial microbes in it, but I'd rather find a way to prevent pests rather than react to them after they rear themselves.

Appreciate the responses in advance!


----------



## Mohican (Apr 17, 2020)

I microwaved it. I was more concerned about the pests than the benes.


----------



## hillbill (Apr 18, 2020)

Mohican said:


> I microwaved it. I was more concerned about the pests than the benes.
> Try nuking an ant


----------



## Mohican (Apr 18, 2020)

It was steaming when it was done. Covered the jar with plastic wrap and let it stew for a couple hours. Used for seedling transplants from peat pellets.







Cheers,
Mo


----------



## natureboygrower (Apr 18, 2020)

BluntMoniker said:


> What do you guys use as a means of pest prevention when bringing organic compost into an indoors grow?
> 
> I've been looking into ROLS since my grow is organic anyway, and I have a nice compost pile outside.. but I've always been told never bring outside, inside, so I'm concerned with the best way to accomplish this without investing my tent.
> 
> ...


I'm not sure where you're from, but I'm in the Northeast and my compost pile is still pretty cool. Due to covid, I ended up grabbing some compost out of my pile which I had planned on letting it sit for another summer (it's a lobster shell based compost) It wasnt broken down all the way, so I ran it through some window screen and got a really nice, rich looking, fine compost. I amended my last indoor grow soil with it and said what the hell and gave it a shot ( this was 3 weeks ago)
Anyways, long story short, my fear of fungus gnats came true a week ago. There was an explosion of flyers like no other. Even with my preventive measure of mosquito dunks and covering my SIPS pots so there was no exposed soil they mustve been dormant and hatched, Im not sure. I set up some yellow sticky traps, caught a lot of flyers then the hypoaspis miles showed up like I've never seen before either. Im guessing with how 'fresh' my compost is, there were more miles than gnats , and they completely fucked up all those gnat eggs buried in the soil. Two days ago I opened my grow cabinet doors and there were hardly any flying gnats. Overnight they disappeared. 
I guess what I'm trying to say is, hopefully you will have more beneficial bugs than nasties and nature will correct things on it's own. Good luck.


----------



## FuckTrump (Apr 19, 2020)

Mr Westmont said:


> Hey guys, wanted to jump in with my first post ever. Long time lurker (10 years), and have learned a lot just by reading. Switched over to the no till organic method last year. Nothing but easy growing, pest free, and good dense, dank buds. Excellent yields. My vegetable garden is now producing more than ever with the same method.


What is your soil mix?


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## Mr Westmont (Apr 20, 2020)

FuckTrump said:


> What is your soil mix?


Base soil is 1 part Kelloggs Soil amendment, 1 part Coco, and 1 part homemade vermicompost. I then regularly and casually (dont measure, I just grab a handful and sprinkle on top:

1. Alfalfa Pellets (rabbit food really)
2. Neem Meal
3. Bat Guano
4. Insect Frass
5. Azomite
6. Dolomite
7. Kelp Meal 
8. Langenite
9. Crab Meal
10. Fish Bone Meal
11. Humic Acids

.......and then whenever the fruit on the counter or in the fridge goes bad, i put most of it in the worm bin, but some of it i bury right into the indoor soil. Worms will swarm to it and eat it up.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (May 7, 2020)

Hope everyone has been good during these crazy times ! Just popping in to share some photos of my outdoor grown in the South-African sun, re-used my base mix i left in a pot for 6 years lol (peat,perlite&ewc) just added some extra fresh EWC and made a gallon of tea 3 weeks into flowering with some EWC, this Sea based organic fertilizer & ofcourse some Molasses with no sulfur. Soon i will be crushing up some crab for some chitin for my next grow but struggling my ass off to get the amendments you guys use especially during this lockdown.

Would you guys agree these ladies are ready for harvest ?


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## rkmcdon (May 7, 2020)

I'm using living soil in 5 gallon fabric pots and considering going to no till. My understanding is that with no till, at harvest, you cut the stalk at soil level and then plant in the same pot/same soil. My question is, if you've just harvested, the root ball won't have started to break down and it seems like it would be difficult to plant into a root ball. 
What am i missing here?


----------



## Wizard of Nozs (May 7, 2020)

I've always considered no till and living soil to be the exact same thing. What exactly is the difference between the two to you? You can cut the stock in living soil as well as it is living, the roots break down process is part of that environment and to be living, root breakdown is a process that needs to take place anyways.

In no till or living soil, your roots begin to break down way before the plant is cut. You can plant immediately after you've cut the stock. This is because the stock itself is relatively inert material until the breakdown process starts to happen. It also wont choke out any new roots since it should be in a state of decompose. Worms help move this process along relatively quickly as without, you'd have to wait much longer for the breakdown process to be complete.

I have used super soil recipes, no till/ living and what have you for many years and the process is the same in either one. You can replant in a super soil as well. It all depends on the amount of amendments already present and the amount of replenishment happening. Without worms, you may need to let the soil set and breakdown before replanting simply because the nutrients haven't been restocked yet.

Below is some great material to read for starting out or even for experienced users. 









No Till Living Soil 101 — Herbal Visionz.


Join the No Till Revolution!




www.herbalvisionz.com


----------



## PadawanWarrior (May 7, 2020)

rkmcdon said:


> I'm using living soil in 5 gallon fabric pots and considering going to no till. My understanding is that with no till, at harvest, you cut the stalk at soil level and then plant in the same pot/same soil. My question is, if you've just harvested, the root ball won't have started to break down and it seems like it would be difficult to plant into a root ball.
> What am i missing here?


I let my pots sit for a couple months after I chop the stalk, and by then all the roots are decomposed and turned back into nutes. But you don't need to wait for it to break down, I just have extra pots, so I rotate em usually.


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## rkmcdon (May 8, 2020)

Wizard of Nozs said:


> I've always considered no till and living soil to be the exact same thing. What exactly is the difference between the two to you? You can cut the stock in living soil as well as it is living, the roots break down process is part of that environment and to be living, root breakdown is a process that needs to take place anyways.
> 
> In no till or living soil, your roots begin to break down way before the plant is cut. You can plant immediately after you've cut the stock. This is because the stock itself is relatively inert material until the breakdown process starts to happen. It also wont choke out any new roots since it should be in a state of decompose. Worms help move this process along relatively quickly as without, you'd have to wait much longer for the breakdown process to be complete.
> 
> ...


Sorry, my terminology may be a little off.

I use living soil to refer to the process of building an organic soil with an active microbial population and then letting the soil and microbes do the work of taking care of your plants. This soil can then be discarded and fresh soil mixed or composted and reused or reused with the no till method

When i say no-till i'm referring to cutting the stalk and planting the new crop immediately back into the same soil without giving it time to break down the rootball. I believe this has the advantage over recomposting of preserving the rhizosphere 

We had been making fresh soil each crop, but not want to start recycling it. In the past, we have had a very dense root ball after harvest and I just imagined that trying to plant straight into a pot with a large root ball would be difficult as opposed to dumping the pots into a compost bin and waiting a couple of months to reuse it so that the root ball would have decomposed.

From your and @PadawanWarrior 's responses, it appears my concerns are unfounded and that planting into a freshly cut root ball is not a problem?

Thank you both for taking the time to respond!


----------



## Hiero1 (May 14, 2020)

Never a problem


----------



## Hiero1 (May 14, 2020)

The old ones feed your worms.


----------



## rkmcdon (May 14, 2020)

Thank you @Hiero1


----------



## DonBrennon (May 15, 2020)

Just dumped 10 recently harvested, hydroponic fed rootballs on top of my wormbin and the worms are loving them.................


----------



## Northwood (May 16, 2020)

Hiero1 said:


> The old ones feed your worms.


Yup! Bacteria, fungi, and indirectly protozoa too 

We gotta feed our critters something, and if we let them starve to death I guess we can keep replenishing what we let die with brewed or fermented teas and such. In a no-till situation, the only way to get organic material (food) down to the rhizosphere is with the roots of dead plants. Worms help transport some too by eating near the surface then borrowing down. This is why it's important to keep something growing, rather than storing your pot away in a dark closet. Mycorrhiza also enjoy living roots to play with. That's why if you take a break, it's better to grow something like legumes or something rather than wheeling away your pot for a rest to rotate them IMO.


----------



## Mohican (May 17, 2020)

Turned the soil in the screen room:


----------



## Dabbie McDoob (Jun 3, 2020)

This is a great thread. I recycle my soil and it saves money and produces some great results.
The micro biodiversity of composted recycled super soil is crazy.
I suggest to all. 

Take some super soil that is white with myco and innoculate your other composts with it. Works amazing.


----------



## hillbill (Jun 3, 2020)

Less input during grow as I have reused for years, few deficiencies. My own castings have made a real difference in my reused mix over time, been worming a couple year with wrigglers and added Europeans a few months ago, that has seemingly raised the breakdown.


----------



## dannyboy602 (Jun 18, 2020)

natureboygrower said:


> I'm not sure where you're from, but I'm in the Northeast and my compost pile is still pretty cool. Due to covid, I ended up grabbing some compost out of my pile which I had planned on letting it sit for another summer (it's a lobster shell based compost) It wasnt broken down all the way, so I ran it through some window screen and got a really nice, rich looking, fine compost. I amended my last indoor grow soil with it and said what the hell and gave it a shot ( this was 3 weeks ago)
> Anyways, long story short, my fear of fungus gnats came true a week ago. There was an explosion of flyers like no other. Even with my preventive measure of mosquito dunks and covering my SIPS pots so there was no exposed soil they mustve been dormant and hatched, Im not sure. I set up some yellow sticky traps, caught a lot of flyers then the hypoaspis miles showed up like I've never seen before either. Im guessing with how 'fresh' my compost is, there were more miles than gnats , and they completely fucked up all those gnat eggs buried in the soil. Two days ago I opened my grow cabinet doors and there were hardly any flying gnats. Overnight they disappeared.
> I guess what I'm trying to say is, hopefully you will have more beneficial bugs than nasties and nature will correct things on it's own. Good luck.


Try diotomaceous earth for gnats. Adults and larvae.


----------



## hillbill (Jun 18, 2020)

Every time I hear of gnats, I speak of Gnatrol. No drama no more gnats.


----------



## Rabcbd (Jun 20, 2020)

Hi Guys I’m looking for some advice on organic soil... I’ve got some super soil and I’m just about ready to start growing but I need some regular soil to mix through the super soil and to use in the top half of my pots.

I took a trip to Bunnings(Australia based) and a couple of garden centres today but the only soil I came across had things like wetting agents and fertilisers through it, I was hoping just to get a hold of some top quality soil with no additives whatsoever.

I even asked a couple of the workers in Bunnings and they told me all the stuff they stocked had something through It, does this seem right?

I suppose I’m looking for clarification on the best product to use along with my super soil.

I’m fairly new to this so please excuse me if this seems straight forward for most of you.

Any help much appreciated!

thanks.


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Jun 20, 2020)

Rabcbd said:


> Hi Guys I’m looking for some advice on organic soil... I’ve got some super soil and I’m just about ready to start growing but I need some regular soil to mix through the super soil and to use in the top half of my pots.
> 
> I took a trip to Bunnings(Australia based) and a couple of garden centres today but the only soil I came across had things like wetting agents and fertilisers through it, I was hoping just to get a hold of some top quality soil with no additives whatsoever.
> 
> ...


I'd try to help, but I'd be worried you'd bite my ear off.


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Jun 20, 2020)

Rabcbd said:


> Hi Guys I’m looking for some advice on organic soil... I’ve got some super soil and I’m just about ready to start growing but I need some regular soil to mix through the super soil and to use in the top half of my pots.
> 
> I took a trip to Bunnings(Australia based) and a couple of garden centres today but the only soil I came across had things like wetting agents and fertilisers through it, I was hoping just to get a hold of some top quality soil with no additives whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Seriously though, just try to find something organic.


----------



## Rabcbd (Jun 20, 2020)

PadawanWarrior said:


> Seriously though, just try to find something organic.


Haha, I’ve not bitten ears in a long time give me a break!

I found something organic but they all have organic fertiliser etc in them, will this interfere with my super soil?


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Jun 20, 2020)

Rabcbd said:


> Haha, I’ve not bitten ears in a long time give me a break!
> 
> I found something organic but they all have organic fertiliser etc in them, will this interfere with my super soil?


If it's organic ferts, then cool. Just don't want the chemical shit. I'm doing no-till and use a bunch of dry amendments.


----------



## DonBrennon (Jun 20, 2020)

Rabcbd said:


> Hi Guys I’m looking for some advice on organic soil... I’ve got some super soil and I’m just about ready to start growing but I need some regular soil to mix through the super soil and to use in the top half of my pots.
> 
> I took a trip to Bunnings(Australia based) and a couple of garden centres today but the only soil I came across had things like wetting agents and fertilisers through it, I was hoping just to get a hold of some top quality soil with no additives whatsoever.
> 
> ...


Maybe look for a seed/cutting starter mix, shouldn't be much added to that


----------



## _mahavishnu (Jun 23, 2020)

Hey all, new here and spent a few days reading through this and the organic 101 thread, and past weeks reading from ILGM, growweedeasy, etc. I’m doing my first grow and hopefully using the techniques found here, I started a journal here. I’m limited on resources for now, if anyone can offer any advice to maximize what I already have on hand it’ll be much appreciated! Looking forward to growing with all of you, and thanks for all your insights on the forum that have helped me already.


----------



## hillbill (Jun 23, 2020)

I’ve been using Back To Nature “Cotton Burr Compost” for over 10 years. No substitute for it with other cotton waste products. Always in my mixes, always the same and always perfect moisture and no stink. Try it if you can. Not working for anyone but it has made things so much easier inside and in my ornamentals. Big nursery here uses a lot of it.


----------



## Rabcbd (Jun 30, 2020)

So I’m 7 days since my baby’s sprouted, I’m growing indoors and using a version of subcools soil on the bottom half of my pots and some standard organic potting mix with organic compost in the top half.

I’m growing 3x green crack autos and 3x gorilla glue autos.

I’m wondering when I should start feeding them compost tea?

Also what would the best ingredients be to use for the tea?

thanks in advance


----------



## hillbill (Jul 1, 2020)

Rabcbd said:


> So I’m 7 days since my baby’s sprouted, I’m growing indoors and using a version of subcools soil on the bottom half of my pots and some standard organic potting mix with organic compost in the top half.
> 
> I’m growing 3x green crack autos and 3x gorilla glue autos.
> 
> ...


COMPOST AND WATER


----------



## Rabcbd (Jul 1, 2020)

hillbill said:


> COMPOST AND WATER


thanks for the response however it doesn’t really help me.


----------



## hillbill (Jul 1, 2020)

Rabcbd said:


> thanks for the response however it doesn’t really help me.


Anytime after first real leaves


----------



## sega megadrive (Jul 2, 2020)

just thought i would show my coots style organic grow just pulled these last night got abit of an early fade in week 5 growing in 5 gallons that were more like this 4 gallons of soil


----------



## sega megadrive (Jul 2, 2020)

sorry for the shit pics im on an samsung ipad hard as to take good pics the 2 plants were both rossetta stone from brothers grim


----------



## sega megadrive (Jul 2, 2020)




----------



## GreenestBasterd (Jul 13, 2020)




----------



## GreenestBasterd (Jul 13, 2020)

In house punch 3.0 coots mix


----------



## GreenestBasterd (Jul 13, 2020)




----------



## GreenestBasterd (Jul 13, 2020)

The Grail


----------



## GreenestBasterd (Jul 13, 2020)

First run off the bottles!!! All coots mix in 7gal and a few 10gal smartpots.
Weekly top dress, teas and plenty of barley!!!

Shouts to “sega megadrive” for convincing me to switch.


----------



## IIReignManII (Jul 13, 2020)

What do you all think about using ground avocado seeds as a soil additive?


----------



## Northwood (Jul 16, 2020)

IIReignManII said:


> What do you all think about using ground avocado seeds as a soil additive?


I don't see why not, considering they have carbon and bacteria should like them. I throw them whole in my worm bins and they disappear - the only seed that doesn't sprout in my bins for some reason.


----------



## Gimiik (Jul 22, 2020)

Hey guys this thread is wayyy to long for me to begin to dive into and majority of the pictures in the early pages don't load for me.

Can anyone point me towards more literature / videos / journals / podcasts etc about No till, LOS?


----------



## hillbill (Jul 23, 2020)

Just google ROLS Soil
Just search RIU


----------



## Fluffy Butt (Jul 23, 2020)

Gimiik said:


> Hey guys this thread is wayyy to long for me to begin to dive into and majority of the pictures in the early pages don't load for me.
> 
> Can anyone point me towards more literature / videos / journals / podcasts etc about No till, LOS?


Check out the KIS Organics podcast.


----------



## Gimiik (Jul 23, 2020)

hillbill said:


> Just google ROLS Soil
> Just search RIU


Majority of the search results for "ROLS Soil" links back to this thread haha. Although I suppose that helps filter out some of the posts here.
Thanks guys.


----------



## hillbill (Jul 23, 2020)

Everything you need is right here!


----------



## Northwood (Jul 23, 2020)

Yikes, I'm not to too familiar with ROLS except from Youtube video suggestions. Isn't that a method only suitable for getting your plants through one cycle?


----------



## johny22 (Jul 31, 2020)

Hi guys this is my first attempt at no till I have a container that is 220L (58 gal) container Dimensions are: 65cm x 52cm x 88cm would this be alright? I was just wondering if it's better to have a shallow more wider container or shorter length more deeper container


----------



## Mohican (Jul 31, 2020)

Seed or clone?


----------



## Northwood (Aug 1, 2020)

johny22 said:


> I was just wondering if it's better to have a shallow more wider container or shorter length more deeper container


If this is for indoor no-till, you'll want more surface area than depth. I wouldn't go much more than 50 cm deep with the maximum surface area that allows it to fit in the tent but with enough room to see and extract excess runoff should that occur. Cannabis roots can easily go deep, but in a pot you risk more drainage and aerobic issues the deeper your pot is. Plus the surface is where the exchange of fresh air and CO2 from the soil bacteria respiration happens. The surface is also where the decomposition of your mulches and other surface amendments occur, and it's more difficult keep that cycling going full-throttle if you just don't have the room. Also, vertical height is a major constraint for those of us who grow indoors in tents. If you have red wriggler worms in your pot, they prefer shallower depths and lurk just under or right in your humus layer. More surface area means more area for cover crops too if you choose that route.

If this isn't no-till and you're growing outdoors, it will still grow okay and extra depth may help in retaining moisture during those dry hot summer days as long as your pot and soil drains well.


----------



## johny22 (Aug 1, 2020)

Northwood said:


> If this is for indoor no-till, you'll want more surface area than depth. I wouldn't go much more than 50 cm deep with the maximum surface area that allows it to fit in the tent but with enough room to see and extract excess runoff should that occur. Cannabis roots can easily go deep, but in a pot you risk more drainage and aerobic issues the deeper your pot is. Plus the surface is where the exchange of fresh air and CO2 from the soil bacteria respiration happens. The surface is also where the decomposition of your mulches and other surface amendments occur, and it's more difficult keep that cycling going full-throttle if you just don't have the room. Also, vertical height is a major constraint for those of us who grow indoors in tents. If you have red wriggler worms in your pot, they prefer shallower depths and lurk just under or right in your humus layer. More surface area means more area for cover crops too if you choose that route.
> 
> If this isn't no-till and you're growing outdoors, it will still grow okay and extra depth may help in retaining moisture during those dry hot summer days as long as your pot and soil drains well.


Thanks for the reply Northwood appreciate ya!


----------



## Mohican (Aug 1, 2020)

?


----------



## bodhipop (Aug 1, 2020)

GreenestBasterd said:


> First run off the bottles!!! All coots mix in 7gal and a few 10gal smartpots.
> Weekly top dress, teas and plenty of barley!!!
> 
> Shouts to “sega megadrive” for convincing me to switch.


Looks great! It will smoke even better.. 
What's your weekly top dress looking like?


----------



## GreenestBasterd (Aug 3, 2020)

bodhipop said:


> Looks great! It will smoke even better..
> What's your weekly top dress looking like?


I was just adding a biggish pinch of Neem kelp and gypsum weekly, and roughly a handful of smashed malted Barley. Then a small hand full of guano around week 1 or 2 of flower. The rest was just straight water and teas.
Hope that helps mate. I’m by no means an expert just doing what I do to the outdoor girls


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## BLACKMESSIAH7 (Aug 17, 2020)

Peace all. Been following this thread for a long while and just started the ROLS style. Have always used organics so not a new thing but I have never done this before. Question.. I have sprouts coming up in my pots. Does this mean that the soil didn't cook long enuff? I had it going for roughly 3-4 weeks. Also what is it? I did add alfalpha meal, could it be alfalpha sprouts and if so should I just let them grow?? Thank U for the responses. Peace


----------



## strengthngrowth (Aug 19, 2020)

hello forum, hello thread!!! ive been wanting to get into no till organics for at least 6 years now... but im still mixing nutes with coco dtw... i run photos, but wanted to get some autos going in a no till setup, in veg room.... now im stuck with a few questions, 1 is could i fit 4 pots in a 3x3 space, for autos??? or should i do a bed??? autos would be on a perpetual/staggered schedule.... if pots whats a good size, i keep reading 15gallons for no till, seems a bit much for an auto, but i do grow in 1-2 gallon pots with coco... also i am sourcing ingredients, wanting to cut cost, as this would be a trial... is all compost good, should i look for certain ingredients, what about this stuff i found locally https://www.missouriorganic.com/compost ?any of these good??? awesome thread btw, lots of good info... if i have a good trial period, i will start looking into worm bins, and composting bins, but for now i just wanna get some organics going to compare with what i already trust, and know... thanks


----------



## BLACKMESSIAH7 (Aug 22, 2020)

BLACKMESSIAH7 said:


> Peace all. Been following this thread for a long while and just started the ROLS style. Have always used organics so not a new thing but I have never done this before. Question.. I have sprouts coming up in my pots. Does this mean that the soil didn't cook long enuff? I had it going for roughly 3-4 weeks. Also what is it? I did add alfalpha meal, could it be alfalpha sprouts and if so should I just let them grow?? Thank U for the responses. PeaceView attachment 4656844


Peace. I think it may be tomato plants from the seeds that were in the homemade compost. I have had this happen last grow and I tried to keep the plant alive. It was a struggle cuz of my work schedule at the time. I dont know if it will be a problem now but would it be bad if I allow it to grow in the same pot?? (5 gal fabric) Thank U for responses. Peace


----------



## Diesel0889 (Aug 22, 2020)

BLACKMESSIAH7 said:


> Peace. I think it may be tomato plants from the seeds that were in the homemade compost. I have had this happen last grow and I tried to keep the plant alive. It was a struggle cuz of my work schedule at the time. I dont know if it will be a problem now but would it be bad if I allow it to grow in the same pot?? (5 gal fabric) Thank U for responses. Peace



The more plants in my bed the better. Keep it tame is all. Tomato is not what I'd use but get some 12 seed cover crop at BAS and just get it going in your pot or bed. You want a mulch layer. I prefer a mix of living and dead. Barley straw with a 12 seed blend or just some white Dutch clover etc. Toss in a handful of worms that will turn your top dress of cannabis leaves or ammendments into a nice humus layer that will only get better with time as long as you maintain it. Anything that comes off the plant when you lollipop or strip a few leaves should go right back to the pot! I wish you luck!

Happy growing!


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## GreenestBasterd (Sep 12, 2020)

The circle of life!!

Did myself some chucking last summer and noticed this little thing (hopefully girl) reaching up for the spring rays between the winter veggies. 
Must have fallen when I cropped last year and looks like nature selected which chuck to pop first. 
Cool serration on the first set of leaves too.

Peace


----------



## AkFrost (Sep 15, 2020)

Figured I show off my girls again, it’s been just over a year since I have on posted on here. Still using the same soil. These ladies are at week 7 of flower and are just starting to fade to fall colors. I love my organic smoke!


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Oct 3, 2020)

Wondering what everyone thinks of my soil recipe? Also I am looking to add possibly Gypsum to the mix but not sure in what ratio with this mix, also I am using LEDs so I want to have a really high availability of calcium and magnesium as it seems like LEDs (and from what I have read a lot on these forums) seem to make plants much more Cal-Mag hungry. What do you all think?? thanks!

pete moss 7.5 gal
worm castings 3.75 gal
compost 3.75 gal
perlite 7.5 gal
lime 3 cups
glacial rock dust 12 cups
thats my base

then I mix my amendments together as below
kelp meal 6 cups
epsoma tomato tone 3 cups
alfalfa meal 3 cups
neem meal 3 cups
crab meal 3 cups
finely ground egg shells about 3 cups
azomite about a cup

I then take a total of 7.5 cups of the amendment mix and add it to the base and let it sit for at least 4 weeks...


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Oct 3, 2020)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> Wondering what everyone thinks of my soil recipe? Also I am looking to add possibly Gypsum to the mix but not sure in what ratio with this mix, also I am using LEDs so I want to have a really high availability of calcium and magnesium as it seems like LEDs (and from what I have read a lot on these forums) seem to make plants much more Cal-Mag hungry. What do you all think?? thanks!
> 
> pete moss 7.5 gal
> worm castings 3.75 gal
> ...


Also I have easy access to a ton of egg shells, banana peal powder, rabbit, goat, chicken, turkey and pig droppings. Lol


----------



## rkmcdon (Oct 6, 2020)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> Also I have easy access to a ton of egg shells, banana peal powder, rabbit, goat, chicken, turkey and pig droppings. Lol


Sounds like you need to start a worm bin and make your own ewc's with that!


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Oct 6, 2020)

rkmcdon said:


> Sounds like you need to start a worm bin and make your own ewc's with that!


Yeah i had a few in the past but they ended up getting far too cold in my basement and everything died off. This is the year I am going to really try to better insulate this sucker and and I will for sure get another bin going!


----------



## sfsdfuturegrower (Nov 27, 2020)

Fluffy Butt said:


> Check out the KIS Organics podcast.


The Kis organics podcast has been stellar so far. I am only on episode 11 but really like it.


----------



## tyke1973 (Nov 28, 2020)

sfsdfuturegrower said:


> The Kis organics podcast has been stellar so far. I am only on episode 11 but really like it.
> 
> 
> rkmcdon said:
> ...


----------



## GreenestBasterd (Nov 28, 2020)

GreenestBasterd said:


> The circle of life!!
> 
> Did myself some chucking last summer and noticed this little thing (hopefully girl) reaching up for the spring rays between the winter veggies.
> Must have fallen when I cropped last year and looks like nature selected which chuck to pop first.
> ...


Powering along nicely!


----------



## Gardenator (Dec 10, 2020)

sfsdfuturegrower said:


> The Kis organics podcast has been stellar so far. I am only on episode 11 but really like it.


Awesome podcasts tons of good info... listened way too much lol my wife said she would bury me in my no till bed if i didnt put my headphones on haha, the kids were equally annoyed lol.


----------



## Kp sunshine (Dec 10, 2020)

Northwood said:


> If this is for indoor no-till, you'll want more surface area than depth. I wouldn't go much more than 50 cm deep with the maximum surface area that allows it to fit in the tent but with enough room to see and extract excess runoff should that occur. Cannabis roots can easily go deep, but in a pot you risk more drainage and aerobic issues the deeper your pot is. Plus the surface is where the exchange of fresh air and CO2 from the soil bacteria respiration happens. The surface is also where the decomposition of your mulches and other surface amendments occur, and it's more difficult keep that cycling going full-throttle if you just don't have the room. Also, vertical height is a major constraint for those of us who grow indoors in tents. If you have red wriggler worms in your pot, they prefer shallower depths and lurk just under or right in your humus layer. More surface area means more area for cover crops too if you choose that route.
> 
> If this isn't no-till and you're growing outdoors, it will still grow okay and extra depth may help in retaining moisture during those dry hot summer days as long as your pot and soil drains well.


Should I have a cover crop and mulch on a 7 gallon soft pot premixed soil( kyrptonite soil ?


----------



## bobrown14 (Dec 11, 2020)

I run 7.5gal hard pots always in flower so I dont grow cover crops. I just rotate them in and out. Harvest let pot sit empty for 2-3 weeks while rootball composts, pull the stem out and transplant a new plant with amendments in the hole back into flower.


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Dec 11, 2020)

bobrown14 said:


> I run 7.5gal hard pots always in flower so I dont grow cover crops. I just rotate them in and out. Harvest let pot sit empty for 2-3 weeks while rootball composts, pull the stem out and transplant a new plant with amendments in the hole back into flower.


That's what I do too basically. I use 15 gal plastic pots though.


----------



## bobrown14 (Dec 11, 2020)

I'd have 12 foot plants in a 15gal pot. They 10ft now. Gotta keep bending em over and tying them down. Bitches. lol


----------



## BeastLebanese (Dec 18, 2020)

bobrown14 said:


> I'd have 12 foot plants in a 15gal pot. They 10ft now. Gotta keep bending em over and tying them down. Bitches. lol


----------



## Snafu1236 (Dec 31, 2020)

Wow, it has been a long time since I posted here.

It's good to be back!


----------



## topdawg09 (Dec 31, 2020)

I seem to have a problem with fungus gnats, I'm hoping some Ecothrive charge may do the trick


----------



## sega megadrive (Jan 5, 2021)

could someone post the link from youtube the johnson-su composting bioreactor i have no idea how to post it an i thought it would be a great addition to this thread thanks in advance... 

big swipe dog.


----------



## bbggkk1177 (Jan 5, 2021)

My plants started drooping a few days ago about an hour before lights went off. Every day since then they are drooping earlier and earlier. Today they started drooping 6 hours before lights out. Anything to worry about? I'm running my soil in a SIP and it doesn't seem too moist or anything. It is perky as hell midday.


Edit/ I think it's vpd


----------



## SovereignGrowing2020 (Jan 7, 2021)

4ftRoots said:


> watch


Yeah its fun to catch em early morning


----------



## SovereignGrowing2020 (Jan 7, 2021)

DankDave420 said:


> Where can I learn the basics? I'm paying over $30 a bag for Happy Frog and throwing it away after every grow. Is this possible to do entirely indoors?


Recycling soil is the way to go, i dont throw soil away anymore. You can use bacteria and enzymes to break down the roots and create healthy media for new root growth. You let worms do the work if youre growing organic. Im doing canna line w some added nectar products. I also use 25ml/gal coconut water.


----------



## SovereignGrowing2020 (Jan 7, 2021)

bbggkk1177 said:


> My plants started drooping a few days ago about an hour before lights went off. Every day since then they are drooping earlier and earlier. Today they started drooping 6 hours before lights out. Anything to worry about? I'm running my soil in a SIP and it doesn't seem too moist or anything. It is perky as hell midday.
> 
> 
> Edit/ I think it's vpd


Ive had the same problem. I think its from light intensity


----------



## SovereignGrowing2020 (Jan 7, 2021)

strengthngrowth said:


> hello forum, hello thread!!! ive been wanting to get into no till organics for at least 6 years now... but im still mixing nutes with coco dtw... i run photos, but wanted to get some autos going in a no till setup, in veg room.... now im stuck with a few questions, 1 is could i fit 4 pots in a 3x3 space, for autos??? or should i do a bed??? autos would be on a perpetual/staggered schedule.... if pots whats a good size, i keep reading 15gallons for no till, seems a bit much for an auto, but i do grow in 1-2 gallon pots with coco... also i am sourcing ingredients, wanting to cut cost, as this would be a trial... is all compost good, should i look for certain ingredients, what about this stuff i found locally https://www.missouriorganic.com/compost ?any of these good??? awesome thread btw, lots of good info... if i have a good trial period, i will start looking into worm bins, and composting bins, but for now i just wanna get some organics going to compare with what i already trust, and know... thanks


3'x3' is perfect for 4 autos. Put them in 7gal grow bags. As you know coco is the best. Youll get 2.5oz ea.


----------



## SovereignGrowing2020 (Jan 7, 2021)

Northwood said:


> If this is for indoor no-till, you'll want more surface area than depth. I wouldn't go much more than 50 cm deep with the maximum surface area that allows it to fit in the tent but with enough room to see and extract excess runoff should that occur. Cannabis roots can easily go deep, but in a pot you risk more drainage and aerobic issues the deeper your pot is. Plus the surface is where the exchange of fresh air and CO2 from the soil bacteria respiration happens. The surface is also where the decomposition of your mulches and other surface amendments occur, and it's more difficult keep that cycling going full-throttle if you just don't have the room. Also, vertical height is a major constraint for those of us who grow indoors in tents. If you have red wriggler worms in your pot, they prefer shallower depths and lurk just under or right in your humus layer. More surface area means more area for cover crops too if you choose that route.
> 
> If this isn't no-till and you're growing outdoors, it will still grow okay and extra depth may help in retaining moisture during those dry hot summer days as long as your pot and soil drains well.


Hey North Wood, i like your name


----------



## bbggkk1177 (Jan 7, 2021)

SovereignGrowing2020 said:


> Ive had the same problem. I think its from light intensity


I could turn the light down but it's been at this intensity for a month


----------



## topdawg09 (Jan 7, 2021)

SovereignGrowing2020 said:


> Hey North Wood, i like your name


Hi bud, I've been lurking on these forums over a decade as my username suggests. In that time I have gained a lot of extra and grows under my belt - some successful and of course some failures. I hope to now become and active member and contribute by posting. Enough about me though lol

I have seen the fabric pots that are really wide and can fit hundreds of litres of soil but aren't big on height. I always the deeper the bed the more space for roots - and happy roots means happy plants.


----------



## hillbill (Jan 8, 2021)

topdawg09 said:


> Hi bud, I've been lurking on these forums over a decade as my username suggests. In that time I have gained a lot of extra and grows under my belt - some successful and of course some failures. I hope to now become and active member and contribute by posting. Enough about me though lol
> 
> I have seen the fabric pots that are really wide and can fit hundreds of litres of soil but aren't big on height. I always the deeper the bed the more space for roots - and happy roots means happy plants.


I joined when you did and I think it was 4years before I posted.


----------



## 2cent (Jan 14, 2021)

So i follow a dude on ic who has giant mofo yeilds. Like giant hydro lookin.. I had a coots mix lined up. 
But this dude pulls somuch i wana copy his recipie.
How is it not hot? Any 1 tried anything similar
He grows right in it 2 wks on cook. 
21 gal compost
7.5 gal coir
12.5 gal peat
3 gal EWC
3 gal black kow
2.5 gal vermiculite
2.5 gal permatil
6 gal perlite

3 3/4c - alfalfa meal
1 2/3c - aragonite
2 1/2c - azomite
3 1/3c - bat guano(N)
2 1/2c - bat guano(P)
1c - blood meal
5c - bone meal
1 2/3c - calcitic limestone
5 1/3c - crab meal
1c - diatomaceous earth/calcium bentonite
3 1/3c - dolomitic limestone
2 1/2c - dry molasses
1/2c - elemental sulfur
1c - feather meal
5c - greensand
2 1/2c - gypsum
2c - humic/fulvic
5 1/3c - kelp meal
2/3c - potassium sulfate
3 1/3c - rock phosphate
2c - sul-po-mg
8 1/8c - chicmen shit 3 3 4


----------



## hillbill (Jan 14, 2021)

Looks like good mix from here.


----------



## bobrown14 (Jan 14, 2021)

Not organic .... yields OK I grow in Coots mix and my mix is 7 years old same soil. 

I pull on average 2.2#s dried trimmed in the can per 5x5 @ 600W in 60days flower. 

You can't fit more weed in that space. Double dare ya but go for it. 

The beauty of Coots mix is the simplicity and short list of inputs, oh and the yields.


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## DonBrennon (Jan 14, 2021)

hillbill said:


> Looks like good mix from here.


When you 1st look at it, it looks hot as fuck. Then you add up the amount of substrate he's amending and realize it's just diverse, all bases covered.


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## 2cent (Jan 14, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Not organic .... yields OK I grow in Coots mix and my mix is 7 years old same soil.
> 
> I pull on average 2.2#s dried trimmed in the can per 5x5 @ 600W in 60days flower.
> 
> ...


I kept looking cause ive trie to find peeps with coots groewing trees n pullin zs. 
What is 2.2#?

My chemical line under 600wat i get atleast 400gram mostlybmore 6-700 on big strains 
on a shy plant groeing 4plants 400gs me bottom. 

Im worried if i get coots up abd i end up like diarys am prowsing 25gram plants id be destroyed lol. 

This dudes pullin daft figures and trees so i followed on. Costing a fortune to price up as it all wants 1 cup here and there n i can only get it in 25kg bags haha 

But if coots i sae some beasts id mix it up tomorow i got all them amendments already. Chasing extras for ther big list during shitty lockdowns a ball ache 

Plant centre "u cant come in tell us at the door.." 
"i need 25 different amendments if u have em" lol 3hrs later... 

Got any pics? Im worried to loose what i manage to smoke all of alredy lol


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## Northwood (Jan 14, 2021)

2cent said:


> What is 2.2#?


2.2# = 1kg. It's also about my normal yield in my 5X5 tent with 4 plants in organic no-till. I'd guess this is about an average yield for organic in that amount of space.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 14, 2021)

2cent said:


> I kept looking cause ive trie to find peeps with coots groewing trees n pullin zs.
> What is 2.2#?
> 
> My chemical line under 600wat i get atleast 400gram mostlybmore 6-700 on big strains
> ...


2.2#s = 2.2 pounds or 34zips @ 150/..... in a 5x5

2.2#s/4 plants = 8-9 zips per plant. Thats the best I can do indoors. Do it regularly but its more than 1 person job specially trimming. 

Yeah the beauty of Coots is I've already got the ingredients in spades and cheap too. 
We do make our own compost/vermi-compost and that's the key. All your ingredients that you listed I wood add a cup of each to my compost bin.... well cept the blood meal yuk. We live in farm country. Have access to plenty of bones.

Make our own pot-ash and sometimes add bones to the fire. 
For coots mix I have to source Neem/Karanja, crustacean meal. The rest is bulk we already have it. The other beauty is that if you add a little too much of one input its not going to matter much. 

You tip the cup a little heavy with any of the following you got problems:

3 3/4c - alfalfa meal
1 2/3c - aragonite
2 1/2c - azomite
3 1/3c - bat guano(N)
2 1/2c - bat guano(P)
1c - blood meal
5c - bone meal
1 2/3c - calcitic limestone 
2/3c - potassium sulfate
3 1/3c - rock phosphate
2c - sul-po-mg
8 1/8c - chicmen shit 3 3 4 
c - diatomaceous earth/calcium bentonite
3 1/3c - dolomitic limestone
2 1/2c - dry molasses
1/2c - elemental sulfur
1c - feather meal
5c - greensand 

Most all of the above are not necessary. You're overlapping several elements and doubling and tripling them as well. 

For example:
Sulfur
Gypsum

You now have to adjust for soil pH out of wack with more Ca. That mix has the Ca source amounts in reverse as well.
Dolomitic Limestone should be 1/2 of your Calcitic limestone.

Coots mix fixes the Ca source with Gypsum and Oyster shell flour as the Ca source as well as your chitin and Ca from Crustacean meal. 

Thats a very complicated recipe that you likely wood have to compost several weeks before use.
Coots mix I've mixed and planted the same afternoon. 

Also I wouldn't plant anything in your mix without a soil test to verify your on target. 

Coots mix I get tested annually and amend accordingly. 
Which is usually only Kelp meal + EWC + maybe some fish bone meal + malted barley ground and a splash of compost on top as a mulch.

I'm not trying to talk you down off your mix or promote Coots mix. It's all good just arguing the benefits of a simple mix that works over and over is all. Nothing new really.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 14, 2021)

Northwood said:


> 2.2# = 1kg. It's also about my normal yield in my 5X5 tent with 4 plants in organic no-till. I'd guess this is about an average yield for organic in that amount of space.


I'm bragging a little bit but not much. I've done better but not always and I've pulled less with new genetics. Like now... I started popping beans I've had laying around and get a dud every once in a while instead of running tried and tru gear from clones. 

We moved to a new place ... during the move we ended up with hemp mites. OMG that's how I got started over. Hind sight should have ditched everything then moved. I took in a clone during the move/unpack that had the mites. Didn't know about sulfur vaporizer till after I ditched all my keepers.... so sad. Shit spreads like wild fire. Burn the shit down. Everything. Only managed to get rid of them with Sulfur.


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## 2cent (Jan 14, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I'm bragging a little bit but not much. I've done better but not always and I've pulled less with new genetics. Like now... I started popping beans I've had laying around and get a dud every once in a while instead of running tried and tru gear from clones.
> 
> We moved to a new place ... during the move we ended up with hemp mites. OMG that's how I got started over. Hind sight should have ditched everything then moved. I took in a clone during the move/unpack that had the mites. Didn't know about sulfur vaporizer till after I ditched all my keepers.... so sad. Shit spreads like wild fire. Burn the shit down. Everything. Only managed to get rid of them with Sulfur.


Haha shit 600w 35oz is average for orgsnic coots mix? Really. 

Some say u wont get any yeild like that organic but ya get quality. that reflected diarys ive looked thru for weeks. 
The dude mixes all up and veg from cut in light mix 2 weeks and plants in. 
Its meant to be throwing diversity snd selection thete which i can see and get on but its gona take months ordering bit to get it here where i need 200g i can only order 25, 000g lol so il work on that and side by side it. 

So

Ur sayin its heavy yields like what i see on ic. 

The ewc i got here. 
Is greenhand organic ebay leaf mould snd manure and its £15 for 8litres.
Willys worms feeds potatoes and paper only £10 for 20 lires. 
Found a dude with manure n vegies comPosted wormpoo at dobies npk n11244 p8252 k 7173... Non others list npk but him. 


I so wish i had farmer mates. 
If ur gettin a 35oz pull bro il do the coots if thats what u do. Do u change anything? Which recipie u following i know theres a few variants. Peeps i found eith it grow baby 12/12s and its killin me seeing 15gram plants and hsppy faces i grow trees bro and sm sure u do lol


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## bobrown14 (Jan 14, 2021)

My seedlings are 15g. lol 

I run red spec COB lamps tho. I have 6 COBs 4 are 3K and 2 are 1750K all running at 100w each. 
VEG in HLG with R-spec full on. 

Usually in the first 2-3 weeks of flower my plants are at the lights and I gotta start super cropping. 

Its real .... jungle time in the indoor garden. Last summer my first outdoor I grew 18 zip plant in a 35 gal container in the sun in coots mix. I hadda chop it down with a ladder at 14 feet tall. First try. 

I did a patch in the woods 7 plants all but 2 of them were well over 12 feet tall. We were trimming for a month and a half. For the patch run I dug holes in the ground (ouch) and filled with a new coots mix. Just mixed and right into holes with VEG plants like 2 days after the last snow fall (may 10th). 

Took down the 14 footer last week of September.... was full on trim for 2 months after that. I had an indoor crop early September then all the outdoor ..... I've seen more weed fer sure outdoor growers in Cali with fertilizers. Thats a full freaking time job tho. I like to kick back and enjoy some of my harvest. 
One of the other cool things about Coots mix not much to do during flower. Take pics and super crop.


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## 2cent (Jan 14, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> My seedlings are 15g. lol
> 
> I run red spec COB lamps tho. I have 6 COBs 4 are 3K and 2 are 1750K all running at 100w each.
> VEG in HLG with R-spec full on.
> ...


Man im jealouse lol. Swappin hlg soon as i crop next round. Got sll me mates on em and i dont have em. 
I got 1400watt of 3030 cre leds in 200w pan els tho from a company to test. They kick some balls. 
Thats 1 room. Thinming to drop a 600 or 100para in the middle to fire it up a bit end flower. Thats a 7x7 where the live beds off

My other room is 4x8 and 2 600whps in magnum xxls man i had to bolt it thru the tent to the roof no lie lol they hurt. 

But yeah in that room i get 40ish every time np. 
The led room had a flop last round as the genetic was fire but lowbass yielders. Tryed them this round hps thinkin it was me leds. Nah its the strain. 

But barneys asked me to test 3 of their cali strains sent me 9 seeds so im gona live them up. 
Mena be fire and heavy indicas.. 

So i guess after ur woods review.. Lol il do ths coots as per his page. 
Il cook the other mix and fire it up in my 4x8 as that has 4 weeks left. Then veg 3 week in airpots. 

This room im gona do the full 7x7 i think.


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## Northwood (Jan 14, 2021)

2cent said:


> Some say u wont get any yeild like that organic but ya get quality.


Lots of experienced growers get yields like that under organic, however I think most of use use more than 600 watts to achieve it. lol

Quite awhile back I posted a thread of my regular light bulb grow, like the kind of lights they sell at Walmart and Costco. It was also organic (no-till) in a 5X5 tent, and yielded 1075 grams of cured bud in organic no-till. Right here (lots of photos): https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/


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## topdawg09 (Jan 14, 2021)

I'm queasy about buying worms and bringing them indoors, is there an alternative?


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## 2cent (Jan 15, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Lots of experienced growers get yields like that under organic, however I think most of use use more than 600 watts to achieve it. lol
> 
> Quite awhile back I posted a thread of my regular light bulb grow, like the kind of lights they sell at Walmart and Costco. It was also organic (no-till) in a 5X5 tent, and yielded 1075 grams of cured bud in organic no-till. Right here (lots of photos): https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/


lool wow thats impressive my god shit haha man wow, house leds hahah daum! son!
i use 1200wat hid and 1400w led cree3030


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## 2cent (Jan 15, 2021)

topdawg09 said:


> I'm queasy about buying worms and bringing them indoors, is there an alternative?


''finding'' worms n bring them inside ? 
or stop at the door if u do buy em , put a soil dollop inside ya door and let me be, most wil make it in the piles, then uhaven braught them in 

there noffin wrong with a good ole lob in ya plants bro there clean as and make ya soil thrive


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## bobrown14 (Jan 15, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Lots of experienced growers get yields like that under organic, however I think most of use use more than 600 watts to achieve it. lol
> 
> Quite awhile back I posted a thread of my regular light bulb grow, like the kind of lights they sell at Walmart and Costco. It was also organic (no-till) in a 5X5 tent, and yielded 1075 grams of cured bud in organic no-till. Right here (lots of photos): https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-budget-5x5-setup.982183/


To be clear - I run 1 room 5x10 each 5x5 has 600w COB with R-spec - I added 250w HLG with R-spec in the middle to fill out the overlap with the 2 600w fixtures. 

All solar powered too so my overhead is not much ... running no-till. OK I buy a 2 year supply of kelp meal and also purchase WOW (wallace organic wonder) Mycos a few times a year. 

Yields are related to genetics its pretty hard to make a sows ear into a race horse. Trick to that is choose keepers wisely. lol not as easy as it sounds. Good to have friends we can all run and trade then deal with hemp mites after... ffs.


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## Northwood (Jan 15, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Yields are related to genetics its pretty hard to make a sows ear into a race horse. Trick to that is choose keepers wisely. lol not as easy as it sounds. Good to have friends we can all run and trade then deal with hemp mites after... ffs.


My worst genetics so far were bought from the government called "Bakerstreet" produced by Tweed/Canopy Growth. Not only was it a problematic grow with lots of mutations, but it took 14 weeks in flower to finish and only yielded 850 grams from 4 plants! lol

Sadly having "keepers" is problematic here in Canada because of our stupid 4 plant limit and the fact that rooted clones count as plants. So I role the dice and plant from seed. Ironically since legalization I've been trying to be compliant for once


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## hillbill (Jan 15, 2021)

Wish I had something to be compliant with, still an unfriendly place her3.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 15, 2021)

Northwood said:


> My worst genetics so far were bought from the government called "Bakerstreet" produced by Tweed/Canopy Growth. Not only was it a problematic grow with lots of mutations, but it took 14 weeks in flower to finish and only yielded 850 grams from 4 plants! lol
> 
> Sadly having "keepers" is problematic here in Canada because of our stupid 4 plant limit and the fact that rooted clones count as plants. So I role the dice and plant from seed. Ironically since legalization I've been trying to be compliant for once


The whole idea was to get rid of the black market. When the government cant do what is needed then the black market stays in place. They need to improve the requirements restrictions.

What's next on the seed thing? Monsanto signs an agreement with Health Canada to supply GMO seeds?? Thats absurd.


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## 2cent (Jan 15, 2021)

Haha yeah if u want and no lie hands doen best flavour u ever ever had and i mean double oil production i just bit a orange with the skin on flavours. Flsvour like i hoovered my trim 4 month ago and it smells everytime i turn it on
Humboldt seeds. But i got squirt snd melon 1 the biggest yielder they got... Umm it 55days and stretches for 35 of them. Then under a 600w where i get 20 easy it puls 9. But iys to die for lol.
Never runnin a full tent of that again.

Got 3 calivstrains from barneys this run. Kindly donated by them on hopes of a tree pic informed me there all daft yielding indica short as and coated. So fingers crossed this round gene should be there barneys has shown some killer yields in peoples diarys.

Full no till i dont giv a coot... Haha wel i will gona be crazy i cant wait. Hope my ewc pulls me thru


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## Northwood (Jan 15, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> The whole idea was to get rid of the black market. When the government cant do what is needed then the black market stays in place. They need to improve the requirements restrictions.
> 
> What's next on the seed thing? Monsanto signs an agreement with Health Canada to supply GMO seeds?? Thats absurd.


No, that was not the whole idea. Honestly I don't know where to begin. Let's start with the early days. I was a young person during the time cannabis was controlled as a narcotic in Canada under the NCA, and that was a brutal fucking time. We spent time in jail for "indictable" offences such as having a single rooted plant or a sprouted seed. If you're very young and don't understand what it was like, then I guess you get a pass.

The fact is that ruining a person's future just because they like weed is not a good thing. And Justin Trudeau fixed that, while Erin O'Toole as an MP screamed that it would cause evil in society and must be banned. FFS, put things in perspective.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 16, 2021)

I'm a lot older than that. I'm a child of the 60s. Down here in the USA a lot of people were put it jail for weed. Disproportionately people of color. Think there's a car with a African American lets pull him over and arrest him for a seed yes a see not even sprouted. I have friends that that happened to as well. 

I'm also a property owner in Canada and havent been able to go to see or visit my property for at least the last year and a half but I still gotta pay my taxes and utilities even tho they aren't being used. 

My comment about Canadian legalization was about the fact that you have to purchase seed from Canadian government to be legal even tho there are plenty of seed vendors in Canada selling seeds. I find that a little strange. And the 4 plant max is not enforceable or being followed. Every Canadian grower I know grows a lot more than 4 plants outside in the summer not to mention indoor the rest of the year. Thats the black market bro. In full swing. The only thing better than before is you can take your weed to the dispensary and sell it to them... oh wait no you cant. 
Point made right there.


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## stoobeey (Jan 19, 2021)

I'm just finally moving into TLO (I will fuck around in smaller pot sizings for an educational aspect , I understand why larger works better. 3 gal and 5, not sure I'll play with 7s right now)

So I'm using a new bag if roots I added 1/8c of amendments and some xtra ewc and. Looked a. Couple of weeks while my actual stuff cooks a month.

Recipe if decided on was 30% peat/30 lava rock /30 50/50 ewc bus compost
Per cuft
1/2c crab. Kelp, alfalfa, 


I already cut out all gen org. Nutes weeks ago in end if my NL grow (top dressed a CPL weeks ago, they got like 4 weeks left). 
A jack auto that doesn't seem to have stayed tiny.. did I train to early? I have in a 5 gal it's 1/4 the size of my pineapple auto in a 2g. I top dressed last week and a tea. I guess we'll see if it gets fuckex up.

My questions are knowing if I need to top dress or anything through a water only grow. I'll do teas every couple weeks. Or it's basically if the plants healthy the soil is good and feeding the plant? I'm so used to shoving chems into the soil every other day, I just don't wanna lean o not later to fix something..

Thanks for any advice


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## Northwood (Jan 19, 2021)

stoobeey said:


> I'm just finally moving into TLO (I will fuck around in smaller pot sizings for an educational aspect , I understand why larger works better. 3 gal and 5, not sure I'll play with 7s right now)
> 
> My questions are knowing if I need to top dress or anything through a water only grow. I'll do teas every couple weeks.


There is no way you can grow a plant to finish with water only in a 3 to 5 gallon pot unless you grow a very tiny girl (like a 1 or 2 zip plant). To grow a real plant in that amount of medium, you'll likely need to top dress regularly with a powdered amendment. As far as no-till is concerned, the minimum amount of soil IME is 15 gallons, although I do know people that grow smaller plants than myself in only 10 gallon pots with lots of surface area.


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## Northwood (Jan 19, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> The only thing better than before is you can take your weed to the dispensary and sell it to them... oh wait no you cant.


Not sure if you've ever been to Canada, but it's never been the land where everyone who smokes weed also grows a few 100 kilograms a year to make a living selling on the black market. They've always been a minority, and that's because customers must outnumber producers for you to have a market in the first place. (No idea why I have to explain this. lol)

What is better now is that I can legally possess an unlimited amount of cannabis products in my home, grow my own 4 plants to yield 3 to 4 kg per year, smoke a big fatty on the sidewalk in front of a police station holding a 30 gram bag of bud, and 10 police officers wont be pointing their guns at me before they rough me up and put me in jail, while giving me an indictable criminal record after I get out in a couple of years. If you feel it was better under the Narcotics Control Act (NCA), then glad you don't live here. Many people of my age went through hell for decades to get to this point.


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## stoobeey (Jan 19, 2021)

Northwood said:


> There is no way you can grow a plant to finish with water only in a 3 to 5 gallon pot unless you grow a very tiny girl (like a 1 or 2 zip plant). To grow a real plant in that amount of medium, you'll likely need to top dress regularly with a powdered amendment. As far as no-till is concerned, the minimum amount of soil IME is 15 gallons, although I do know people that grow smaller plants than myself in only 10 gallon pots with lots of surface area.


I don't mind top dressing and or extra teas. I don't plan on no till, but I absolutely want to throw out my liquids. Obviously it's a personal grow .. shit I was so inconsistent with liquid nutes I was pulling 4oz if I was lucky off 5 gal plant under 1000 hps lol. My clones always would produce even less. The last clone I pulled of sour sorbet however yielded the best and most ever for me, 9oz dry between 2 plants in 2 gal. I'd rather make a bucket of amendment too dress mix and use as needed.

I veg in a closet , 2x4 worth space and plenty of vetical with 4 qb120s on120w driver. New I'm trying to figure out distance with new seedlings. I flower in a 4x4 with a 680w growers choice led.

Also if I need to add to my soil mix let me know, I see a lot of people with lots of mineral dust, bit unsure I'm covered.

popped.


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## Northwood (Jan 19, 2021)

stoobeey said:


> I don't mind top dressing and or extra teas. I don't plan on no till, but I absolutely want to throw out my liquids. Obviously it's a personal grow .. shit I was so inconsistent with liquid nutes I was pulling 4oz if I was lucky off 5 gal plant under 1000 hps lol. My clones always would produce even less. The last clone I pulled of sour sorbet however yielded the best and most ever for me, 9oz dry between 2 plants in 2 gal. I'd rather make a bucket of amendment too dress mix and use as needed.
> 
> I veg in a closet , 2x4 worth space and plenty of vetical with 4 qb120s on120w driver. New I'm trying to figure out distance with new seedlings. I flower in a 4x4 with a 680w growers choice led.
> 
> ...


If you aren't doing no-till or reusing this soil without remix, then why are you adding 1/3rd lava rock? I also wouldn't worry about mineral additions if this is a one-off. A peat or coco medium with perlite drains just fine on its own, and it takes more than a year before you get any substantial aggregation of minerals by bacteria in any case. You aren't building soil here, you're just mixing medium for this one-time grow.

If you want to add less amendments, you could put a bit of manure based fertilizer in your initial mix, hen manure would be good because of the high calcium content. 

TBH it all sounds like a waste to me, unless you have a vegetable garden in the backyard you can dump this in after you're done. Frankly it's been awhile since I mixed a soil base (years now), and I couldn't imagine going to that effort of starting over for every single grow, every 4 months. I'd go insane! But we all have different priorities I guess.


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## stoobeey (Jan 19, 2021)

Northwood said:


> If you aren't doing no-till or reusing this soil without remix, then why are you adding 1/3rd lava rock? I also wouldn't worry about mineral additions if this is a one-off. A peat or coco medium with perlite drains just fine on its own, and it takes more than a year before you get any substantial aggregation of minerals by bacteria in any case. You aren't building soil here, you're just mixing medium for this one-time grow.
> 
> If you want to add less amendments, you could put a bit of manure based fertilizer in your initial mix, hen manure would be good because of the high calcium content.
> 
> TBH it all sounds like a waste to me, unless you have a vegetable garden in the backyard you can dump this in after you're done. Frankly it's been awhile since I mixed a soil base (years now), and I couldn't imagine going to that effort of starting over for every single grow, every 4 months. I'd go insane! But we all have different priorities I guess.


Huh? I'm reusing the soil for sure, why wouldn't I,. I didn't amend the roots stuff with lava , only using that in my built mix which I only have 1.5cuft cooking for now, I'll get 3 more going shortly will be enough to do my perpetual

The roots I have left over I only added the meals no xtra aeriation. I plan on taking some of that to replant a mango tree into a 10 gal to rid myself of some. And figured keep used around for seedlings.


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## Northwood (Jan 19, 2021)

stoobeey said:


> Huh? I'm reusing the soil for sure, why wouldn't I,. I didn't amend the roots stuff with lava , only using that in my built mix which I only have 1.5cuft cooking for now, I'll get 3 more going shortly will be enough to do my perpetual
> 
> The roots I have left over I only added the meals no xtra aeriation. I plan on taking some of that to replant a mango tree into a 10 gal to rid myself of some. And figured keep used around for seedlings.


Oh okay, I guess. Happy growing!


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## hillbill (Jan 20, 2021)

5 quarts of ROLS in 1.5 gallon waste baskets give 1 to 2.5 ounces most of the time with proper training and lighting.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 21, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Not sure if you've ever been to Canada, but it's never been the land where everyone who smokes weed also grows a few 100 kilograms a year to make a living selling on the black market. They've always been a minority, and that's because customers must outnumber producers for you to have a market in the first place. (No idea why I have to explain this. lol)
> 
> What is better now is that I can legally possess an unlimited amount of cannabis products in my home, grow my own 4 plants to yield 3 to 4 kg per year, smoke a big fatty on the sidewalk in front of a police station holding a 30 gram bag of bud, and 10 police officers wont be pointing their guns at me before they rough me up and put me in jail, while giving me an indictable criminal record after I get out in a couple of years. If you feel it was better under the Narcotics Control Act (NCA), then glad you don't live here. Many people of my age went through hell for decades to get to this point.


I'm 62yo live in the USA and own a home (cottage) in Ontario. Likely been going to Canada longer that you've been alive so simmer down. Not going to argue the fact that you can have weed in Canada and hopefully not get arrested. Good for you. 

The restrictions are my argument.

They are just plain silly. Not to mention opening the door for a company like Monsanto to come in and shove GMO seed and weed down your throat. No thanks.. Been around and been smoking weed since I was 10. I'm good with staying out of trouble. Why... I don't smoke weed in front of police or carry it around with me. EVER

The restrictions are there for someone to make money. Plain and simple. The law was enacted to shut down the black market .... was the original intent. 

Canada needs to improve what they are doing with the restrictions. 

I can carry a bag of weed around.... ok I never do that. I can smoke weed in front of cops... Ok never do that either. So we back to where we started.


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## 2cent (Jan 21, 2021)

If am makin a 400 litre cont..
At 33/33/33
135litres peat
135 litres lava
135litres ewc?

Lava is 5kg for £20 pumice? Am i loomin right coz thats 500 quid on aeration lol


Standard clay hydrotion for hydro..? Clay balls
Accepted? 

LECA has uses in agriculture and landscapes. It can alter soil mechanics. It is used as a growing medium in hydroponics systems since blended with other growing mediums such as soil and peat, it can improve drainage, retain water during periods of drought, insulate roots during frost, and provide roots with increased oxygen levels promoting very vigorous growth. LECA can be mixed with heavy soil to improve its aeration and drainage.


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## Northwood (Jan 21, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I'm 62yo live in the USA and own a home (cottage) in Ontario. Likely been going to Canada longer that you've been alive so simmer down


Possible if you were born in your cottage, because I'm only 61.Since you're so familiar with the Canadian cannabis scene during the 1970s as a teenager here, I find it odd that you think things are worse with legalization than back then.

Meanwhile I grow great weed legally with much better quality than I could score on the black market before legalization. Plus it's organic no-till and I know what goes into it.

You do your thing. Complaining is legal here in Canada too, even if it doesnt make any sense.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 22, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Possible if you were born in your cottage, because I'm only 61.Since you're so familiar with the Canadian cannabis scene during the 1970s as a teenager here, I find it odd that you think things are worse with legalization than back then.
> 
> Meanwhile I grow great weed legally with much better quality than I could score on the black market before legalization. Plus it's organic no-till and I know what goes into it.
> 
> You do your thing. Complaining is legal here in Canada too, even if it doesnt make any sense.


You missed my point. I spelled it out. Not sure why. 
We on the same side. 
Weed and the police were much much worse in the USA back then. 420% on that. 

3 words: War On Drugs.


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## m4s73r (Jan 23, 2021)

Quick questions. If you were going to fill a 4x8x1.5 bed for a indoor no till bed, would you fill the whole thing with soil? Or can i say use all the leaves in my leaf bin from this last fall and the second pile from fall 2019. I know that I am going to be needing 45 cuft of soil. based on the amount i have outside that would save me around 15 cuft of soil. Dont get me wrong My local Nursery guy has been dealing with me for over a decade so i can get what i need with out issue. Just wondering if that would make a good base layer. Should I mix it with some aeration material? 

I read the last few pages and I would like to say I have been using 170 gallons of Clackmas Coots soil for about 6 or 7 years now. I used to run in 25 gallon fabric bots before I threw them all in a 4x4 grass roots bed. 3 years ago i bought a bucket of nutrients from BAS and re-amended. Otherwise I just waster, grow clover, and feed my soil. There was a guy talking about being worried about not having worms. That would be a foolish mistake to not include worms in a no till. I still see the guys that like to buy all the stuff. Not necessary. But worms are. You could use enzymes to break down root mass or you can use worms. You can add vermi-compost to top dress all the time or you can use worms. You can use cover crops after a couple of grows to break up the soil mass with deep running roots OR... I think we know where I'm going with this. Worms will tell you everything you need to know about your soil food web. I'm not saying you HAVE too. But a 2 lb box of European night crawlers for 60 bucks for all those benefits is certainly worth it. I could be wrong. I been away from the forums for awhile. 

what you guys think? Leaves mixed with perlite for a 6 inch base layer? Yay or nay.


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## 2cent (Jan 23, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Quick questions. If you were going to fill a 4x8x1.5 bed for a indoor no till bed, would you fill the whole thing with soil? Or can i say use all the leaves in my leaf bin from this last fall and the second pile from fall 2019. I know that I am going to be needing 45 cuft of soil. based on the amount i have outside that would save me around 15 cuft of soil. Dont get me wrong My local Nursery guy has been dealing with me for over a decade so i can get what i need with out issue. Just wondering if that would make a good base layer. Should I mix it with some aeration material?
> 
> I read the last few pages and I would like to say I have been using 170 gallons of Clackmas Coots soil for about 6 or 7 years now. I used to run in 25 gallon fabric bots before I threw them all in a 4x4 grass roots bed. 3 years ago i bought a bucket of nutrients from BAS and re-amended. Otherwise I just waster, grow clover, and feed my soil. There was a guy talking about being worried about not having worms. That would be a foolish mistake to not include worms in a no till. I still see the guys that like to buy all the stuff. Not necessary. But worms are. You could use enzymes to break down root mass or you can use worms. You can add vermi-compost to top dress all the time or you can use worms. You can use cover crops after a couple of grows to break up the soil mass with deep running roots OR... I think we know where I'm going with this. Worms will tell you everything you need to know about your soil food web. I'm not saying you HAVE too. But a 2 lb box of European night crawlers for 60 bucks for all those benefits is certainly worth it. I could be wrong. I been away from the forums for awhile.
> 
> what you guys think? Leaves mixed with perlite for a 6 inch base layer? Yay or nay.


Leaf mould is boss bro...
1year set leaf all browned up and black ye?



The mould is amazing use it as main part of ya comPost replacement throw on some worms and u have gold there and areation ofc


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## bobrown14 (Jan 23, 2021)

We use leaf mold (plus 2 years old) as a mulch layer outside. Big bonus specially in dry conditions. It will compost further with time. 

4x8 no-till container gonna be hard to deal with size wise maybe 2 container 2x8 be easier?? Just a thought.


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Jan 23, 2021)

Hey all Rollie Pollies! new to the thread I currently have a rubbermaid tub with no drainage holes using a no till method I have had up to 4 harvest so far. I have been using biochar and fish composted in my soil. i also been using cover crop as a chop and drop. My beneficial predators are nematodes and lady bugs. Found some anthropods to aerate and break down organic material so plants can uptake them. I also have red wigglers living in my rubbermaid tub. My soil base is Roots Organics 707 and been using this method with no issues so far. Calcium I been using eggshells. I essentially just water just wanted to drop what im doing. If anyone has any organic composted or homemade ideas I can add to improve soil please let me know. I am not using bottled or amended nutrients and like to keep it that way. Glad to join the thread


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## m4s73r (Jan 23, 2021)

2cent said:


> Leaf mould is boss bro...
> 1year set leaf all browned up and black ye?
> The mould is amazing use it as main part of ya comPost replacement throw on some worms and u have gold there and areation ofc


2019's is all black and brown ye. 2020s still just look like leaves. I was considering putting 2020s down first. then 2019s on top of that mixed with some perlite then coots mix on top of that. Finish off will some nice compost mulch and lay in some clover.



bobrown14 said:


> We use leaf mold (plus 2 years old) as a mulch layer outside. Big bonus specially in dry conditions. It will compost further with time.
> 
> 4x8 no-till container gonna be hard to deal with size wise maybe 2 container 2x8 be easier?? Just a thought.


Im not sure what you mean. It'll go in the tent, get filled up, worms thrown in and that will be that. I wont ever till it up or move it. (unless i buy a new house). And the tents location allows me to get to the bed from 3 of 4 sides. one short side and 2 long sides.


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## 2cent (Jan 24, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> 2019's is all black and brown ye. 2020s still just look like leaves. I was considering putting 2020s down first. then 2019s on top of that mixed with some perlite then coots mix on top of that. Finish off will some nice compost mulch and lay in some clover.
> 
> 
> Im not sure what you mean. It'll go in the tent, get filled up, worms thrown in and that will be that. I wont ever till it up or move it. (unless i buy a new house). And the tents location allows me to get to the bed from 3 of 4 sides. one short side and 2 long sides.


U can sub it in the coots mix bro i was told i can use that 2019 at 1/3 and its amazing. 

I see no harm adding layers of it. Will add to ya areation worms love it. 
U seen the layered wormbins on youtube glass tanks? 
They digest layers better thsn a bulk. 
Bulk add 34days.
Layers between soil 14days. 

Wil be daftly rich in crazy nutes im jealous as hell off collecting now for next year. Mixing with my chickens organic gmo free pooppings increase the heat and add to the sheet.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 24, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> 2019's is all black and brown ye. 2020s still just look like leaves. I was considering putting 2020s down first. then 2019s on top of that mixed with some perlite then coots mix on top of that. Finish off will some nice compost mulch and lay in some clover.
> 
> 
> Im not sure what you mean. It'll go in the tent, get filled up, worms thrown in and that will be that. I wont ever till it up or move it. (unless i buy a new house). And the tents location allows me to get to the bed from 3 of 4 sides. one short side and 2 long sides.


Just a suggestion on the 2x8 seen many folks running them indoors. I use raised beds outside and 4' wide is pretty wide and I can get to them from all sides. You wanna be able to reach to the center. Trying to help ya bro. I'm sure either way will work. 

Leaves are a great mulch layer... mulch layer wood be the top layer. Water thru that and the nutrients in the leaf mulch get into the soil and keep the soil more moist so you dont have to water as frequently. win win.... Also your worms will thank you as red wigglers will live under the leaf mulch on top of the soil.


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Jan 24, 2021)

What is the leaf mold rich in ?


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## Northwood (Jan 24, 2021)

Dear ol" Thankful Grower! said:


> What is the leaf mold rich in ?


Leaf mold doesn't contain much from an NPK perspective, especially the nitrogen because autumn tree leaves are made up mostly of cellulose and lignin, and bacteria have a hard time with them due to the lack of nitrogen it would take for them to digest it. So leaf mold is broken down mainly by fungi which is what you'll be introducing by using it, as well as some pretty stable organic matter that will aid in soil texture and tilth. If made outdoors, it can be a great inoculant for a no-till bed because of the fungi, and also you'll be introducing all sorts of detritus eaters like isopods, earthworms, soil mites, springtails... - plus the predators that eat them.


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## 2cent (Jan 24, 2021)

The process of making leafmould uses bacteria and fungi and is a ‘cool’ process as they release enzymes which break down compounds in leaves

*Leaf mold is not the same as compost.*

Compost is produced by bacterial decomposition. Leaf mold is produced by fungal decomposition. Compost is hot, aerobic, and quick. Leaf mold is cool, slow, and can be produced with little oxygen. This means you don’t have to turn it. Where compost needs a variety of ingredients to attain the right carbon to nitrogen ration to feed the bacteria, leaf mold needs only the one ingredient-leaves. Leaves have a Carbon/Nitrogen ratio ranging from 80:1 to 200:1. There is some nitrogen available, but not enough to allow the bacteria population to explode.

One way to seed the process up considerably is to mow your leaves up as this shredding exposed much greater surface area for the bacteria to work on.When doing this empty the mown leaves out and repeat the process a couple of time to get the best results alternatively pass the leaves through a shredder

*Minerals*

_*“leaves of most tress contain twice the mineral content of manure…And they provide the perfect nutrition for beneficial microbes,simply they make soil come alive”.*_

NPK values of leaf mold are not particully high 2.2 – .8 – 1.6, depending on the tree species but what they do contain are minerals and trace elements.

The roots of all trees accumulate nutrients from deep underground and transported to the leaves. While the nutrients are drawn back into the tree before the leaves fall, most of the minerals remain as they are part of the leaf structure,thereby becoming available in the subsequent leafmould

*Uses of Leafmould

Soil Conditioner*

Leaf mold serves as a soil conditioner rather than a natural fertilizer. It primarily changes the structure of the soil rather than increasing nutrient levels substantially . Its the fungus, varies type’s of Mycorrhizal fungus grabbing onto soil particles help to bind loose soil, while at the same time the hyphae helps to break up compact soil. The natural growth habit of the fungus will move from the leaf mold to the surrounding soil in all dimensions. Start with a small area of leaf mold, end up with a greater volume of better soil. Leaf mold will continue to break down until the only thing left is stable humus which will remain in the soil for decades to centuries, taking a fire to destroy it. Until then, the leaf mold is rich in organic components: humic acids, carbohydrates and lipids. It is complex and impossible to manufacture. As the foundation of the soil ecosystem, there is nothing better and its free.

*Water retention*

I’ve read research that leaf mold will hold several times it’s weight in water, upto 4.5 infact and this makes it a invaluable additive on fast draining soils but also for crops likely to ‘bolt’ if the ground drys out to quickly,crops like Lettuce,Rocket and various Herbs

*Potting Composts*

well-rotted leafmould makes a perfect component in home-made potting compost. It is gentle on seedlings, enabling them to develop a good root system, and is also perfect mixed with grit or sharp sand for bulbs like the lilies to grow in terracotta pots, I also mix it with sieved soil, well rotted and sieved garden compost and sharp sand for our normal potting compost.

For seeds sowing a ratio of 2:1 leafmould /compost

For transplanting seedlings I use 2:2:1:1 leafmould, compost, soil, vermiculite

Large pots for permanent planting 1:1:1:1 Leafmould,compost,soil,sharpsand



Fyi coot drools over it in a podcast. 
And most living soil folk seem same on grasscity


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## m4s73r (Jan 24, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Just a suggestion on the 2x8 seen many folks running them indoors. I use raised beds outside and 4' wide is pretty wide and I can get to them from all sides. You wanna be able to reach to the center. Trying to help ya bro. I'm sure either way will work.
> 
> Leaves are a great mulch layer... mulch layer wood be the top layer. Water thru that and the nutrients in the leaf mulch get into the soil and keep the soil more moist so you dont have to water as frequently. win win.... Also your worms will thank you as red wigglers will live under the leaf mulch on top of the soil.


Um they're brown leaves. Yeah im not going to layer them in the bottom. I may mix some in the sail but being a indoor bed i need to make sure my drainage is on point.


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## m4s73r (Jan 24, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Leaf mold doesn't contain much from an NPK perspective, especially the nitrogen because autumn tree leaves are made up mostly of cellulose and lignin, and bacteria have a hard time with them due to the lack of nitrogen it would take for them to digest it. So leaf mold is broken down mainly by fungi which is what you'll be introducing by using it, as well as some pretty stable organic matter that will aid in soil texture and tilth. If made outdoors, it can be a great inoculant for a no-till bed because of the fungi, and also you'll be introducing all sorts of detritus eaters like isopods, earthworms, soil mites, springtails... - plus the predators that eat them.


This, been using it for years. I have a soft maple and pin oak. its the perfect combo for leaf mould. Soft maple falls early and is pretty green so its got lots of nitrogen still in it. Ill fill 2 black bags with them and throw them in a corner with some sun. About 2 months later the oak leaves start to come down. those are good and brown. those will get thrown in the black garbage bags and completely saturated. tie it closed and poke some holes in the bag, the water will drain out and just be sure to leave em in the sun. come april, the full year and a half later, you got leaf mould.



2cent said:


> *Leaf mold is not the same as compost.*
> 
> Compost is produced by bacterial decomposition. Leaf mold is produced by fungal decomposition. Compost is hot, aerobic, and quick. Leaf mold is cool, slow, and can be produced with little oxygen. This means you don’t have to turn it. Where compost needs a variety of ingredients to attain the right carbon to nitrogen ration to feed the bacteria, leaf mold needs only the one ingredient-leaves. Leaves have a Carbon/Nitrogen ratio ranging from 80:1 to 200:1. There is some nitrogen available, but not enough to allow the bacteria population to explode.
> 
> ...


_While you can certainly do this to speed up make sure to have a pile un-shredded. Its different. Shredded leaf mould is finer and will break down completely faster. Un-shredded will get to that nice mould place and retain a larger structure in turn making it last longer. So when you start this do 2 piles. One shredded one not. or even one shredded one 50/50 and one not shredded. Looks at the difference. May even depend on the type of tree your getting leaves from. _

Let me say that In my own opinion, and I stress opinion, if you do a no till garden indoors or out never buy peet again. Buy it once if you must to get you started. But after that stop. Id even prefer to do coir anymore. the harvesting of peet is hard on the environment. I do not buy potting soils nor do I ever burn my leaves. Gardening can be sustainable. I read post after post on here of people and their tees, and foiler sprays, Myco powered stuff, this that and the other. Mulch, leaf mould should be all you need to sustain a indoor no till bed for years as long as it was set up correctly. This is why I direct so many people to come to RUI and find this thread. I could go on and on about leaf mould.

Want to know the biggest issue with leaf mould? Not having enough...


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Jan 24, 2021)

Nice! Thanks for the info that is exactly what i been missing im thinking since i chop and drop imma chop n drop add some rabbit droppings, leaf mold and add more worms to i also have more biochar i should check on and possibly add some more what are yall using for calcium might add some coffee grounds for a little calcium. Thanks for the knowledge fellas! I got plenty of green and that brown is what im missing


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## m4s73r (Jan 24, 2021)

is that composted rabbit droppings or fresh?


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## bobrown14 (Jan 24, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> is that composted rabbit droppings or fresh?


Can use both. Rabbit berries are fine either way same as Llama/Alpaca poop. 

Leaf mold is the best. We have a partially wooded property and collect it some is years old.

Also make big piles every fall and also layer it into our vermi-compost bins. 

Just be sure your trees dont have Antracnose (American sycamore) lernt that the hard way.


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## bbggkk1177 (Jan 24, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Want to know the biggest issue with leaf mould? Not having enough...


I tried to make my first collection of leaf mould the other day. Not sure if I was successful or not, so I'm just going to try and make JMS and see if it takes.


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Jan 24, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> is that composted rabbit droppings or fresh?





m4s73r said:


> is that composted rabbit droppings or fresh?


Yes I top dress with fresh and compost the excess outdoors . It is how I charge my biochar grass clippings and rabbit droppings. like @bobbrown14 says you can use rabbit droppings fresh or composted. cool thing about the rabbit droppings is the paper biodegradable pellets that is used with the bedding and is also has straw the worms love it ! Im just getting into permaculture except I probably wont be using urine anytime soon but to each is own. How are you guys mainly building soil? Interested in everyones technique cool thing about this versatile plant are the several different ways each person grows uniquely . I been using leafs as well but never brought them indoors and mainly I covered since I need a cheap mulch to stop the snow from interfering with my worm bin. It is great I learn something new everyday thanks fellas!


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## m4s73r (Jan 25, 2021)

Hell yeah my man. I dont have rabbits so not something I would personally do. Me and the kid normally stand and take a piss on the leaves after we got them all gathered in the out door bin. But not on plants.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 25, 2021)

Can check with your local County Extension Service for your local alpaca/rabbit breeders growers. The rabbit folks will gladly give you their rabbit pellets. Some folks actually use quality wood pellets for the litter so that mixed with poop into compost is killer. The extension service also has soil test kits (in most states).

We live out in the country (now finally) so everything from the kitchen goes into the compost bin we burn the bones and make pot-ash with hardwood add bones to the fire. After a few fires we scoop up the ashes and some into the compost bin the rest go into the garden beds. Top off kitchen scraps with a handful or 2 of leaf mold.... Vermi-bin strategically located next to leaf piles.

If yer in the city or sub-burbs can thro bones and fat around too many rats. Here the rats are fodder for the predators. So everything into compost. Dont have trash collection.


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## m4s73r (Jan 25, 2021)

Yeah i live in town. All compost has to be in a composter thing. Hmm if i was to ever run out of EWC id give rabbit dung a shot.


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## m4s73r (Jan 31, 2021)

Any of you guys that did beds throw any wood in the bottom of your bed? Been reading up on Hugelkultur. Just curious if anyone out there is messin with this?


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## bbggkk1177 (Jan 31, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Any of you guys that did beds throw any wood in the bottom of your bed? Been reading up on Hugelkultur. Just curious if anyone out there is messin with this?


the owner of redbud living soil does it on ig


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## OSBuds (Jan 31, 2021)

bbggkk1177 said:


> the owner of redbud living soil does it on ig


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## m4s73r (Jan 31, 2021)

I seen that. I was considering using them. Having spoke with him he said he dont believe the wood will ever really break down and if he had the wood available to him he would rather do 1" to 1.5" layed in there 3 inches deep. Im going to go to the city brush dump and see what i can find. If not its off to the local woods lol. Im hoping to find a mix of some soft maple and some pineoak. Once thats found and put in then im going to put in leaves, cotton burr mulch, and some alfalfa. Wet that down and let it get that biology going. Then ill fill in to the last 3 inches then cover that with more mulch and plant in it.


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## bobrown14 (Feb 1, 2021)

You can look to hardwood debris from aborists. Use that as a mulch layer or just compost it mixing in with your other inputs.

Another option is collecting dead rotting wood and wood debris in the woods/forest. 

I think there's a huge question about how much you gain in the short to medium or even long turn with regard to Hugelkultur. Maybe work after 10 years or so... maybe. 

Other options out there. Leaf mold is WAY WAY more effective.


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## m4s73r (Feb 1, 2021)

I agree. I think there is some questions that need answered. But if this is something that would allow the end user to start a single pot and after the first year or 2 getting that pot to a place that the pot has enough nutrients to grow for 10+years. Im not going anywhere. Im going to rock this shit and try it out. The science is sound. Its a actual system that I have seen outdoors. Im sold. Ordering the bed tonight and when it comes in ill throw up a post on how I build it.


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## 2cent (Feb 2, 2021)

OSBuds said:


>


I got 100 gal planter 
Was loomin at sip and swick but the swick seems to be sat in the watwr my weight would be toomuch?
And the sip im a fabrik planter so that cant work but overflow seema good fir airgap i like that...
What wud u do. 

I run autopot spyder feeding midway and bluemats on top. Feed teas etc every 1 to 2 wk but big pla ter and 8 plant they can get hu gry in flower so i wanted base feed to fill in flower if need more?


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## bobrown14 (Feb 2, 2021)

I run autopot GL - the 7.5gal size. Been at it a while now.


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## 2cent (Feb 2, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I run autopot GL - the 7.5gal size. Been at it a while now.


Dont think my bed wil fit on that lol.
Im on about the autopot spyder it has a box and 8 wickers in the soil.

Bit sip/swick is what i need at 1meter x 2 meter


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## bobrown14 (Feb 2, 2021)

You want to sip with per-lite or some other soil-less medium?


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## Dtownhellbilly (Feb 2, 2021)

Have some Questions about no till tried posting in grow design but didn’t get a hit so I’ll try here. I’m wanting to make two large beds for my flower room and set up a notill just for flower. I usually use transplant clones from solo cup to 1gal air pot to to a five or seven a week before flip. Could I go from the one gal into an established bed or would this disturb my notill too much?


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## 2cent (Feb 3, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> You want to sip with per-lite or some other soil-less medium?


nah its a 4x8 grassroots livong soil raised bed but not full yet..
Full of coot mmix.
Blue mats x6 and a autopot spyder .which is a wick system again. 

I just feel in flower they may need the base tray water from ground too .

So looking at the sip. As the overflow and 1inch root gap looks good at not overwatering.
But i am a grassroot fabric so i cant container grow it. 
So wondered the swick. But saw they can get over wet. And at 400kg grow bed it wil sit doej so hard im not moving it So i cant exactly lift it off if toomuch. 

So...sip...with a overflow ? 
Possibly sat on a mesh grid and rocks/pipes covered in perlite to keep the grow bed from sinking in perlite.?

If you understand me? 
Like a sip chopped off and a fabric pot ontop
Either wick fabrick up or the netpot of pearlite x10 resting on the growbed base or sumin


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## bobrown14 (Feb 3, 2021)

Interesting.... kinda big tho. 4x8x1.5' of soil is over 2000 lbs.


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## 2cent (Feb 4, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Interesting.... kinda big tho. 4x8x1.5' of soil is over 2000 lbs.


Yes n no.
Its 100gals in total and 8 plants in it. Wil have 5 wk veg and flip in scrog.

Its got 1400watts in 200watt cre3030 3500k pannels x4 and a 420w pannel centre .
6ft x 6ft grow in a 7x7


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## bobrown14 (Feb 5, 2021)

6x6 at 15" deep is 43 cubic feet = 300+ gallons with my math?? 

300+ gal of soil = say 10#s per .... my math says ~3000 pounds.  

I'm sure your floor will hold it.


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## 2cent (Feb 5, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> 6x6 at 15" deep is 43 cubic feet = 300+ gallons with my math??
> 
> 300+ gal of soil = say 10#s per .... my math says ~3000 pounds.
> 
> I'm sure your floor will hold it.


Yeah if full to the top. I was told 10inch is all needed rest comes in topup ontop latwr on..

My beds a 4x8 fabric so its easy to fold 1 corner in and it takes off a few feet few stitches . Cudnt buy the size i needed so we made it fit

So at half full its just under 100gal
Thats 35gal worm cast 40 gal perlite 35gal peat.

And amendments. Then ibhave soe left in the barrell fullo worms and other bits for topup in flower


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Feb 5, 2021)

Had some buddies over the other day. As they are used to pumping heavy synthetics and dry organic amendments they were astonished to see such a great use of no till natural organic replication of the outdoors. I dig it its all bout feeding the soil and utilizing your waste into something beneficial.


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Feb 5, 2021)




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## bobrown14 (Feb 6, 2021)

Dear ol" Thankful Grower! said:


> View attachment 4817377


I read an article in Mother Earth magazine in like 1968 about composting and that was when I started doing it. Was sorta cool back then if you were a hippy. Got a design for a compost bin out of a popular science mag and built my first bin. No internet .... I dont know how I did anything back then. lol


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## Dear ol" Thankful Grower! (Feb 6, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I read an article in Mother Earth magazine in like 1968 about composting and that was when I started doing it. Was sorta cool back then if you were a hippy. Got a design for a compost bin out of a popular science mag and built my first bin. No internet .... I dont know how I did anything back then. lol


right on brother thats the one thing about living off the land. Use what you got.


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## firsttimeARE (Feb 22, 2021)

Ive been reading up on organic growing for a little bit now. Still learning but this sounds expensive.

I want to run 12 plants outdoors in 10gal fabric pots. Id need 18CF. Following coots mix and sourcing all the amendments online im at $180 just in amendments.

Need 3CF EWC, 6CF pumice (can I use expanded clay pebbles) and 9CF CSPM.

EWC 30lb bags are about $30 and 4 are needed thats $120 there.

CSPM is cheap $11 / 3CF so $33

Pumice is expensive. I can find drainage rock for $8/CF

Any tips on ways to save?


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## bobrown14 (Feb 22, 2021)

I saw rice hulls at 8 bucks for 7 cubic feet online.

Try local nursery they will likely have their own soil mix that all you need to do is add amendments and aeration. They may have a mix of peat moss and ewc/compost as well just add aeration. Most nursueries have this bulk mix in hand as well as bagged compost like Coast of Main lobster compost or BU Blend from the west coast.

Also another good source locally is your local feed store. They will have minerals and also kelp meal. 

Clay pebbles are probably the most expensive aeration choice. If you have them on hand tho fer sure use them but dont expect to be able to re-use them in a dwc. 

Rice hulls are the cheapest aeration. Then perlite then the rest. Rice hulls have the advantage of breaking down over time which is good and probably a lot better at sustainability if thats on your radar.


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## firsttimeARE (Feb 22, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I saw rice hulls at 8 bucks for 7 cubic feet online.
> 
> Try local nursery they will likely have their own soil mix that all you need to do is add amendments and aeration. They may have a mix of peat moss and ewc/compost as well just add aeration. Most nursueries have this bulk mix in hand as well as bagged compost like Coast of Main lobster compost or BU Blend from the west coast.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the tip on rice hulls. When you say feed store do you mean animal feed? Closest thing I can think of is tractor supply? I do have a nursery nearby


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## bobrown14 (Feb 22, 2021)

Tractor supply not a feed store really unless you're growing chickens or cats and dogs. 

Feed store same place farmers buy seed and also minerals and FEED for their animals. Usually they sell in bulk but it depends. Some places are pretty hip and break stuff down for hobby gardeners etc. 
Feed store like a candy store for farmers.... lol make you wanna buy a tractor. Also might be able to source some compost there.


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## firsttimeARE (Feb 22, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Tractor supply not a feed store really unless you're growing chickens or cats and dogs.
> 
> Feed store same place farmers buy seed and also minerals and FEED for their animals. Usually they sell in bulk but it depends. Some places are pretty hip and break stuff down for hobby gardeners etc.
> Feed store like a candy store for farmers.... lol make you wanna buy a tractor. Also might be able to source some compost there.


Not sure if I have any near me. I have a lot of farms near me. Maybe ill just ask them where they get their stock from


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## bobrown14 (Feb 22, 2021)

If there are farms there's a feed store. Fer sure.... Yeah ask a farmer they will be glad to help. Might even give you some compost to go with.... where I get my compost for veggie gardens. 

Cow poop with chocolatey centers.... mmmmm good.


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## firsttimeARE (Feb 22, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> If there are farms there's a feed store. Fer sure.... Yeah ask a farmer they will be glad to help. Might even give you some compost to go with.... where I get my compost for veggie gardens.
> 
> Cow poop with chocolatey centers.... mmmmm good.


Forgive my ignorance but what on my list is animal feed?


----------



## bobrown14 (Feb 22, 2021)

All the ingredients that are labeled "meal", they may also have other amendments like oyster shell flour, rock dusts etc.

Example Kelp meal crustacean meal


----------



## firsttimeARE (Feb 23, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> All the ingredients that are labeled "meal", they may also have other amendments like oyster shell flour, rock dusts etc.
> 
> Example Kelp meal crustacean meal


My local hydro store had pretty much everything. They were out of rice hulls but a 50lb bag he said is $40.

I found some for $13 online but $30 shipping. 50lbs is 7CF so a little more than I need. Only need 5.3CF being that im making 16CF of mix.


----------



## hillbill (Feb 24, 2021)

The 7 cubic feet bale is, by far, the cheapest way to go. So you have some for next time, not a big deal.


----------



## JMcG (Feb 24, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Any of you guys that did beds throw any wood in the bottom of your bed? Been reading up on Hugelkultur. Just curious if anyone out there is messin with this?


Indoor Hugelkultur beds you say?
225 gallon DIY fabric beds, coots soil on top!


----------



## firsttimeARE (Feb 24, 2021)

hillbill said:


> The 7 cubic feet bale is, by far, the cheapest way to go. So you have some for next time, not a big deal.


For sure! Hell if I enjoy this who knows. May ditch hydro for something more eco friendly.


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## m4s73r (Feb 24, 2021)

JMcG said:


> Indoor Hugelkultur beds you say?
> 225 gallon DIY fabric beds, coots soil on top!View attachment 4835762


Tell me more. Give me a run down of how you built your bed! That bed looks SOLID.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 25, 2021)

Id be interested to know what everyone thinks of these mixes

This is what most of the premixes look like down here in South-Africa

___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mix 1 :

Organic Compost, Vermicompost (worm castings), Sphagnum Peat Moss, Coco Coir, Perlite, Biochar, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Bone Meal, Soft Rock Phosphate, Insect Frass, Dolomite Lime, Gypsum, Basalt Rock Dust, Zeolite, Malted Barley, Diatomaceous Earth, Humic Acid
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Mix 2 :

Substrates:

Compost, Vermicompost, Coco peat, Sphagnum peat moss (sustainably harvested) and perlite.

Amendments:

Alfalfa meal, Aloe meal, Basalt Rock Dust, Bio-Char (preloaded with microbes), Canna-Kashi, Calcitic Lime, Copper Powder, Dolomite Lime, Guano (seabird), Gypsum, Humic Acid, Fulvic Acid, Frass, Kelp Meal, Malted Barley, Manganese Oxide, Montmorillonite Clay, Soft Rock Phosphate & Zeolite.

Inoculant:

Cannabis Microbial Consortium.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Mix 3 :

Coco Coir, Worm Castings, Perlite (30%), Volcanic Rock Dust, Bone meal, Gypsum, Fermented probiotic bran.
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Im still leaning towards using neem Seed Meal and crustacean meal even though i cannot find it anywhere down here, i have been using peat/perlite/ewc with some teas i make to grow outdoors getting okay results but i as i spent so much money on the good quality peat & pumice i just cannot afford to mess it up as i really want to recycle it.

The neem is 20$ from amazon for a 5 LB bag at 40$ shipping down here but i don't mind paying it as i know everyone here swears by it. Regarding the crab meal, i have already bought a crab which is in my freezer, i will be processing its shell myself as i just gave up searching for it after numerous calls and research. How much crab meal & neem meal would be recommended tor 40 gallons of soil though ? thats the big question and how much will i have to re amend with neem and crab meal ? Will gladly appreciate some input. Thanks


----------



## green_machine_two9er (Feb 25, 2021)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Id be interested to know what everyone thinks of these mixes
> 
> This is what most of the premixes look like down here in South-Africa
> 
> ...


I sure would do one of your mixes with no coco. Straight peat/aeration/ewc as base.
For 40 gallons roughly 5 cf. I would shoot for 2-3 cups nutrients per cf. so 10-15 cups between crab/ neem/ kelp or and meals really.


----------



## JMcG (Feb 25, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Tell me more. Give me a run down of how you built your bed! That bed looks SOLID.


Well, I’m kind of new to this site ( lurked for years, just now participating) but I’m really active over on GC. I have a “ indoor Hugel bed “ thread over there that documenthe whole process. I’ll try to sum it up here...
Planter itself is pretty straightforward. 2x4 frame. Sheep fencing lining the sides and bottom. Landscaping fabric lining all of that. It’s a giant fabric pot basically!
I then followed standard Hugelkultur methods. Where I live I can easily source tons of cottonwood, aspen, and willow wood. It’s everywhere, and friending it in various rates of decay was a breeze. These species in particular will promote excellent fungal growth which is important for living soils. 
I brought home enough to fill the bottom 4-5” with pieces ranging in diameter of 4” down to twigs. I have a huge pile of the same materials that have been chipped so I put a layer of about 2” over that. Next the I applied a 1-2” of lava rock to make sure I had aeration down low as things rotted away and turn to soil over the years. A bit of alfalfa meal sprinkled onto that layer just to keep the nitrogen good and available as it progresses. 
that lest about 12” in the bed which was filled with a standard Coot style mix ( more of a 40/40/20 actually) and then mulched with more chipped material and other products. 
It’s over a year old, and on it fourth (5th?) cycle. It just keeps getting better!


----------



## JMcG (Feb 25, 2021)

Damn... no edit feature on this site? Or am I missing it?


----------



## green_machine_two9er (Feb 25, 2021)

JMcG said:


> Damn... no edit feature on this site? Or am I missing it?


The three little dots next to an arrow pointing down...


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 25, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> I sure would do one of your mixes with no coco. Straight peat/aeration/ewc as base.
> For 40 gallons roughly 5 cf. I would shoot for 2-3 cups nutrients per cf. so 10-15 cups between crab/ neem/ kelp or and meals really.


Thanks for the reply man, so you would say 1 cup crab meal, 1 cup neem meal and 1 cup kelp meal per cubic foot ?


----------



## green_machine_two9er (Feb 25, 2021)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thanks for the reply man, so you would say 1 cup crab meal, 1 cup neem meal and 1 cup kelp meal per cubic foot ?


Give or take. It’s an averages game. 2-4 cups total nutrients per cf is in the ball park. And at three your sitting good I think


----------



## m4s73r (Feb 25, 2021)

JMcG said:


> Well, I’m kind of new to this site ( lurked for years, just now participating) but I’m really active over on GC. I have a “ indoor Hugel bed “ thread over there that documenthe whole process. I’ll try to sum it up here...
> Planter itself is pretty straightforward. 2x4 frame. Sheep fencing lining the sides and bottom. Landscaping fabric lining all of that. It’s a giant fabric pot basically!
> I then followed standard Hugelkultur methods. Where I live I can easily source tons of cottonwood, aspen, and willow wood. It’s everywhere, and friending it in various rates of decay was a breeze. These species in particular will promote excellent fungal growth which is important for living soils.
> I brought home enough to fill the bottom 4-5” with pieces ranging in diameter of 4” down to twigs. I have a huge pile of the same materials that have been chipped so I put a layer of about 2” over that. Next the I applied a 1-2” of lava rock to make sure I had aeration down low as things rotted away and turn to soil over the years. A bit of alfalfa meal sprinkled onto that layer just to keep the nitrogen good and available as it progresses.
> ...


DUDE so it didnt really click till you said this. I read your thread over on GC when I first started looking into this. Good thread. Well I started mine tonight. Ill be posting picks of everything. I live in the midwest so im using oak and maple. Me and the wife found a rotting tree. we unearthed it and brought the whole thing home.


----------



## JMcG (Feb 26, 2021)

Ok, got it! Thanks bud!


----------



## JMcG (Feb 26, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> DUDE so it didnt really click till you said this. I read your thread over on GC when I first started looking into this. Good thread. Well I started mine tonight. Ill be posting picks of everything. I live in the midwest so im using oak and maple. Me and the wife found a rotting tree. we unearthed it and brought the whole thing home.


That’s perfect. I used a mixture of really rotten, punky materials and fresh fallen limbs. 
it’s a pretty sweet set up, it doesn’t take as much water as the other standard beds. I did have some plants fade a bit prematurely on run two, but I amended a bit heavier after that run and they seem to cruising right along now. Maybe I give them a shot of fish hydrolysate very once and awhile. 
I also built a classic out door Hugel mound last summer. I just planted some random veggies in it to get some root mass into it and didn’t get much returns. This year though...


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Feb 26, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> I sure would do one of your mixes with no coco. Straight peat/aeration/ewc as base.
> For 40 gallons roughly 5 cf. I would shoot for 2-3 cups nutrients per cf. so 10-15 cups between crab/ neem/ kelp or and meals really.


Thanks for the reply man, so you would say 1 cup crab meal, 1 cup neem meal and 1 cup kelp meal per cubic foot then ? If i may ask what are the best sources of information when it comes to learning how to make your own living soil ?


----------



## green_machine_two9er (Feb 26, 2021)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thanks for the reply man, so you would say 1 cup crab meal, 1 cup neem meal and 1 cup kelp meal per cubic foot then ? If i may ask what are the best sources of information when it comes to learning how to make your own living soil ?


Everything I learned was right here in this thread plus a few members who really helped me along my way. @greasemonkeymann where ya at !??

also podcast like cannabis cultivation and science podcast. Or shaping fire.
As far as soil building here my best advice. Take it or leave it. Lol.

when baking a cake the base is the same typically. Doesn’t matter if it’s double chocolate, peanut butter or a gummy bear cake( it’s my son’s birthday and the last cake is his request this year).
Start with similar amounts of eggs, flour, oil et. 

then we flavor according to what type of cake we want.

soil is the same way. Base is the vital portion. And strong base is what provides microbes with a healthy happy home.

1/3 conpost( or better castings, homemade ifpossible.)
1/3 peat
1/3 aeration (pumice or chunkiest perlite you can find).
I’ve tried 20plus different soil recipes , but the base remains consistent. 
2-4 cups nutrients. You can play with this. 3 main sources. Or 10 at 1/4 each. You choose and track your npk inputs. 
4 cups minerals. Don’t skimp- butt you don’t need to add any more minerals during recycling. Just extra nutrients based on what kind of fade , or lack of fade occurred with last harvest. 

the rest comes with time. The fine details and teas, enzymes, fungal food ,recycling. All the other fun stuff.
just keep it simple to start. Spend 10x more time looking at soil than plants. Actively learning how to properly maintain soil moisture levels is a huge deal. Notice I didn’t say watering. I don’t water plants. I maintain moisture levels which are beneficials to soil life and health. 

do have a mineral plan in place as well as your amendments?


----------



## m4s73r (Feb 28, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Everything I learned was right here in this thread plus a few members who really helped me along my way. @greasemonkeymann where ya at !??
> 
> also podcast like cannabis cultivation and science podcast. Or shaping fire.
> As far as soil building here my best advice. Take it or leave it. Lol.
> ...


I like to ad vermiculite to my mix with the Perlite. Adds silica.


----------



## hillbill (Feb 28, 2021)

NAPA #8822 Floor Dry is diatomaceous earth, heat treated to expand. Been using like vermiculite for at least 10 years.


----------



## m4s73r (Feb 28, 2021)

JMcG said:


> That’s perfect. I used a mixture of really rotten, punky materials and fresh fallen limbs.
> it’s a pretty sweet set up, it doesn’t take as much water as the other standard beds. I did have some plants fade a bit prematurely on run two, but I amended a bit heavier after that run and they seem to cruising right along now. Maybe I give them a shot of fish hydrolysate very once and awhile.
> I also built a classic out door Hugel mound last summer. I just planted some random veggies in it to get some root mass into it and didn’t get much returns. This year though...


Did a whole write up on this in my grow journal. This Should be fun!


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Mar 1, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Everything I learned was right here in this thread plus a few members who really helped me along my way. @greasemonkeymann where ya at !??
> 
> also podcast like cannabis cultivation and science podcast. Or shaping fire.
> As far as soil building here my best advice. Take it or leave it. Lol.
> ...


Thanks man, i really do appreciate you guys going out of your way to help out a random like me. One day i will to do the same and return the help to others in need. 

I will definitely take a look at those sources, the more the information the better. 

For my base im using Peat, Pumice & castings, however these castings are not my own. I am planning to get a worm bin very soon though. I will have to work out if im going to use my expensive pumice and peat now or at a later stage, will peat go off in anyway if stored too long ? 

If i may ask, what are the differences between using , 10 main sources or 3 ? I take it if i cannot get my hands on crabmeal,kelp&neem i would then have to substitute these. So to get something similar to crab meal you would need to for instance get 3 different amendments to make up what the crab meal could have done by itself ? Please correct my understanding if im wrong. 

So for my first grow , you would say i must skip the feeding and let the plants tell me what they want? If i am changing strains on the next grow, how drastic are the differences in terms of what the plants feed on ? I take it most growers stick to a few good strains and thats it, do things change alot when you want to grow a different strain each time ? 

Well said though, look at the soil 10x more than the plants, this is something i am engraving into my brain, slowly but surely. 

Unfortunately i dont have a mineral plan in place at all however on the amendments side, as mentioned i would stick to crab,kelp&neem if i cannot source the neem, i will have to substitute it. What would you recommend for a mineral plan ?


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## green_machine_two9er (Mar 1, 2021)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Thanks man, i really do appreciate you guys going out of your way to help out a random like me. One day i will to do the same and return the help to others in need.
> 
> I will definitely take a look at those sources, the more the information the better.
> 
> ...


I like basalt, but any high quality rock dust would suffice. Azomite, greensand anything for horticultural use is typically good. I got on the heavy side 4 cups per cf mineral mix. 

Don’t forgot gypsum and oyster shell flour as buffer and soil conditioning as well as Ca source. 1 cup each per cf

As far as nutrients go. What I meant was you can mix and match. Some people like diversely. Bone, blood meals, fish, and a number of more exotic inputs as well as the coots style nutrients (kelp, crab, neem)

Some soil builders like simplicity. Down to earth has a mix call “ vegan mix” which has a bunch of good amendments.

Pest may dry out but won’t really go bad. Just a pain to rehydrate.


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## hillbill (Mar 1, 2021)

This forum and this particular thread have been vital on my hill!


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## m4s73r (Mar 1, 2021)

My HukelKulture bed is warm to the touch Took my temp gun back there and shes sitting at 84.4 degrees.


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## green_machine_two9er (Mar 1, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> My HukelKulture bed is warm to the touch Took my temp gun back there and shes sitting at 84.4 degrees.


There’s a lot happening in there.


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## m4s73r (Mar 1, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> There’s a lot happening in there.


You are not wrong. Its kinda smelly. Almost anaerobic smelling. Like a compost tea that got way over brewed.


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## JMcG (Mar 2, 2021)

Hmmm.... kinda smelly you say? Anaerobic possibly? You have good drainage? 
( how do I get to your journal?)


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## SouthernSoil* (Mar 2, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> I like basalt, but any high quality rock dust would suffice. Azomite, greensand anything for horticultural use is typically good. I got on the heavy side 4 cups per cf mineral mix.
> 
> Don’t forgot gypsum and oyster shell flour as buffer and soil conditioning as well as Ca source. 1 cup each per cf
> 
> ...


Can definitely get my hands on some basalt, gypsum and oyster shell flour. I would love to mix and match but have no knowledge to do so yet.

I would prefer simplicity to start with but unfortunately i cannot source any down to earth products here in South-Africa.

Will be a pain to rehydrate but, hopefully the bag has some holes in and no mold or anything anaerobic has grown. Ill check it out. Thanks bud


----------



## bobrown14 (Mar 2, 2021)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Can definitely get my hands on some basalt, gypsum and oyster shell flour. I would love to mix and match but have no knowledge to do so yet.
> 
> I would prefer simplicity to start with but unfortunately i cannot source any down to earth products here in South-Africa.


What can you tell me about Transkei from Pondoland... I'm running some seeds a friend sent me from your neck of the woods. I'm about 60 days flowering now.


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Mar 2, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> I like to ad vermiculite to my mix with the Perlite. Adds silica.


Good to know, any other benefits besides the silica though ?


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Mar 2, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> What can you tell me about Transkei from Pondoland... I'm running some seeds a friend sent me from your neck of the woods. I'm about 60 days flowering now.


Havent been there at all, i read about the strain a while back and probably smoked some at some stage back in the day. Not a region im close to and its quite far from the main cities. I read that swaziland's gene pool has been properly polluted though, not sure if this is the same for Transkei which is now called Pondolandia, i think finding any landrace strains are pretty hard these days.

I have quite a serious amount of bag seed that ive collected over the years, not even sure if any will germinate as i didnt keep them in a cold room of any sort but i can guarantee there are some land races around in that jar.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 2, 2021)

Yeah supposed to be landrace. One plant looks like it the other one looks like its modern. The male is a monster prolly the keeper. I collected pollen. Last pic is the male.
The Male I hadda cut in half to fit in a 4x4 tent @80" tall so he could have easily been 14 feet outdoors. No stakes required either.


----------



## bobrown14 (Mar 2, 2021)

I'm growing in Coots No-till been using that soil for 6 years now. Getting a little tired maybe cant say never grew this strain before.


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## SouthernSoil* (Mar 2, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Yeah supposed to be landrace. One plant looks like it the other one looks like its modern. The male is a monster prolly the keeper. I collected pollen. Last pic is the male.
> The Male I hadda cut in half to fit in a 4x4 tent @80" tall so he could have easily been 14 feet outdoors. No stakes required either.
> 
> 
> View attachment 4841749View attachment 4841750View attachment 4841752View attachment 4841754


2nd last pic looks way more like a landrace, the 1st two pics seems like a hybrid of a landrace ? the male i cant really tell but 420 centimetres / 4.2 metres thats a big boy !


----------



## SouthernSoil* (Mar 2, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I'm growing in Coots No-till been using that soil for 6 years now. Getting a little tired maybe cant say never grew this strain before.


Landraces are suppose to be heavy feeders though ?


----------



## bobrown14 (Mar 2, 2021)

I've grown landrace before and the same thing with loosing leaves and yellowing. I did a kelp and EWC tea bubbled over night and watered in a few days in a row the yellowing on the landrace looking plant is better she's greening up some more. But not fattening up...grrrrr. Prolly gonna be finished another 60 days IF I can keep the leaves on her.

As soon as I gave them some fish emulsion a few weeks ago, I got the leaf tip curl. I've gotten that before on Durban I ran. I like to see my girls loose the green coming down the stretch. 

Makes the freshies smooth tasting and not harsh or cough.


----------



## m4s73r (Mar 2, 2021)

JMcG said:


> Hmmm.... kinda smelly you say? Anaerobic possibly? You have good drainage?
> ( how do I get to your journal?)








M4S73R's Perpetual Organic LED Grow.


Somewhere I heard that its hard to see where to go if you cant remember where you've been. This may read a little different then other post due to me being long winded, percise, comical, stoned, that list can go on. So its 2012. I join rollitup and Start my first thread. My T5 FFOF grow I...



www.rollitup.org


----------



## lakesidegrower (Mar 7, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Everything I learned was right here in this thread plus a few members who really helped me along my way. @greasemonkeymann where ya at !??
> 
> also podcast like cannabis cultivation and science podcast. Or shaping fire.
> As far as soil building here my best advice. Take it or leave it. Lol.
> ...


What’s ur take on running separate pots for veg and flower, each amended towards different npk? I’ve come up with recipes for both that run close to 3-1-2 for veg and 1-3-2 for flower but honestly I’d rather just one one mix...
What npks is everyone shooting for with a single full cycle mix?


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## green_machine_two9er (Mar 8, 2021)

lakesidegrower said:


> What’s ur take on running separate pots for veg and flower, each amended towards different npk? I’ve come up with recipes for both that run close to 3-1-2 for veg and 1-3-2 for flower but honestly I’d rather just one one mix...
> What npks is everyone shooting for with a single full cycle mix?


Tbh I think the plant and microbes work together to pull npk from soil as needed specifically for each stage of growth.

so here’s how I do it. Just recycled non re-amended soil for veg. Add some ewc and perlite if consistency needs alittle help.

and even then. I often transplant directly into large containers from crooked clones. Green perfect growth whole cycle. And that’s in super dank soil. Plant exudates attract specific bacteria that fixate n p or k respectively to which stage the plant is in.

happy growing!


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## hillbill (Mar 8, 2021)

Reusing soil makes it better and better over time. Up to 60% of my mixes are used mix that has set idle for 2 or 3 months.


----------



## JMcG (Mar 8, 2021)

hillbill said:


> Reusing soil makes it better and better over time. Up to 60% of my mixes are used mix that has set idle for 2 or 3 months.


Agreed!
Recycling soils is the primary reason I became interested in living soils in the first place. I’ve probably made over 500 cf of coots style soil over the years for all of the big beds and large pots I run. It gets used for a year or two in the big beds ( less in the pots) then piled up outside over a winter or at least a wet spring and let nature take its course. 
I just replaced some 3 year old soil that was in 225 g beds and had seen over 10 cycles. I basically got out pure EWC.


----------



## hillbill (Mar 8, 2021)

JMcG said:


> Agreed!
> Recycling soils is the primary reason I became interested in living soils in the first place. I’ve probably made over 500 cf of coots style soil over the years for all of the big beds and large pots I run. It gets used for a year or two in the big beds ( less in the pots) then piled up outside over a winter or at least a wet spring and let nature take its course.
> I just replaced some 3 year old soil that was in 225 g beds and had seen over 10 cycles. I basically got out pure EWC.


My excess goes to my containers outside for ornamentals after time in outdoor compost pile. So much fun also.


----------



## lakesidegrower (Mar 8, 2021)

Definitely, I do understand the process of the plant ‘asking’ for what it needs, and that microbes and enzymes make what is needed available to the plant during the cycle. But I guess what I’m getting at is when doing the initial mix, does it make the most sense to just shoot for an even balance of npk and then top dressing to tailor to the current growth phase?


----------



## green_machine_two9er (Mar 8, 2021)

lakesidegrower said:


> Definitely, I do understand the process of the plant ‘asking’ for what it needs, and that microbes and enzymes make what is needed available to the plant during the cycle. But I guess what I’m getting at is when doing the initial mix, does it make the most sense to just shoot for an even balance of npk and then top dressing to tailor to the current growth phase?


Yes that would be my approach for sure. And really the top dress plan depends on previous harvest to judge what you want in there. I have zero fade, then maybe I wait another round. I have some fade then try to judge what inputs would correct next round. Top dressing weeks ahead of time is key. Once plant is hungry it’s too late.


----------



## lakesidegrower (Mar 8, 2021)

green_machine_two9er said:


> Yes that would be my approach for sure. And really the top dress plan depends on previous harvest to judge what you want in there. I have zero fade, then maybe I wait another round. I have some fade then try to judge what inputs would correct next round. Top dressing weeks ahead of time is key. Once plant is hungry it’s too late.


That does make sense - I have a shit ton of different Gaia dry amendments, their all purpose is 4-4-4, so I could start with that and then add others (also have frass, alfalfa, kelp, guano, fish bone, plus my rock dusts) and try to add so it keeps the general even spread. I also have the Gaia bloom mix, maybe leave that out of the mix and use as a top dress in flower?


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## bobrown14 (Mar 8, 2021)

I run Coots in no-till. All I do is amend at up-can a handful of Kelp meal/ewc/crustacean meal and a little compost with malted barley into the hole (maybe a cup total). I usually up-can then right into flower. The Kelp Meal and compost have everything the plants need in proper ratio. 

Its not feeding the plant its feeding the microbes. The NPK talk is more what the folks do that use fertilizer. I've been an organic farmer for many many years and never worried about NPK. I know what it is and how it works. But I dont worry about it. If my plants look like they need something I make a kelp/EWC slurry and water in. Wait 3 days and repeat if needed. 

Been running my soil 4-5 flowering rounds annually for 6 years ... so plus 30 rounds in flower. 

Compost is key. I amend my compost and have several bins. Let them sit idol for as long as I can.


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## lakesidegrower (Mar 8, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I run Coots in no-till. All I do is amend at up-can a handful of Kelp meal/ewc/crustacean meal and a little compost with malted barley into the hole (maybe a cup total). I usually up-can then right into flower. The Kelp Meal and compost have everything the plants need in proper ratio.
> 
> Its not feeding the plant its feeding the microbes. The NPK talk is more what the folks do that use fertilizer. I've been an organic farmer for many many years and never worried about NPK. I know what it is and how it works. But I dont worry about it. If my plants look like they need something I make a kelp/EWC slurry and water in. Wait 3 days and repeat if needed.
> 
> ...


You know it’s funny, I really took the time to read up about what I’m getting into, have read the standard issue books by Lowenfels etc, have read this thread through and the living soil IC thread (currently page 456 lol) - have gained a truly good understanding of the soil food web, but in the final hour before mixing in my amendments I go right back to sketching about npk...


----------



## bobrown14 (Mar 8, 2021)

I forgot to mention I get annual soil tests. 

So I have a good idea how the soil is performing. 

Over the years I basically only had to make pH changes to my water for container gardening. I was using city water and had to filter out the gunk and now on a well with high alkalinity so have to filter out the cal/mag. In the outdoor gardens its fine in containers not so much. 

Cant really say I did anything after getting soil test results. Just amend with a little bit of kelp meal and compost/ewc. The quality of the compost/ewc is crucial. I will spend time collecting wild caught leaf mold from the forest its good stuff. We use that and mulch outdoors and toss some in the vermi-bins.


----------



## lakesidegrower (Mar 8, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I forgot to mention I get annual soil tests.
> 
> So I have a good idea how the soil is performing.
> 
> ...


I have a thriving forest in my backyard, have collected a tub of leaf mould, underneath it was just a thick layer of castings, it was kinda wild to find actually, the layers were defined enough that I was able to separate the castings from the humus. I added about 3 gal of the humus into 6 cu ft of base soil, will probably toss in a gallon or two of the bush castings. I let it sit in a bin for a while to see what ended up crawling around, saw rove beetles popping up which was cool. I think it should make a great addition to the soil, the texture is like a blend of peat, compost and leaf mould.


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## unfiltered (Mar 8, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Compost is key. I amend my compost and have several bins. Let them sit idol for as long as I can.


Hi, I'm on my first cycle of no till with Coot's mix also. This grow method is so awesome as it's way less work; and the plants are growing and flowering at a rate I've never seen before. Every plant is frosty with fat buds. I also use blumat with blusoak so that also contributes to the crazy fast grow.

Anyway, when you said you amend the compost do you actually mean that you put meals (i.e. kelp, crab, etc) in your compost first and let the microbes process them before you put the amended compost in your no till pots/raised beds? Comes to think of it, this is almost like vermacomposting where we let the worms process the amendments, food scraps, etc and harvest the worm casting.


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## thisbuds4u101 (Mar 9, 2021)

Are you familiar with Holly Michigan? I understand Green Rush Farms is a reliable source for clones. Do you know anything about them looking for a good legit clone source.


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## m4s73r (Mar 9, 2021)

unfiltered said:


> Hi, I'm on my first cycle of no till with Coot's mix also. This grow method is so awesome as it's way less work; and the plants are growing and flowering at a rate I've never seen before. Every plant is frosty with fat buds. I also use blumat with blusoak so that also contributes to the crazy fast grow.
> 
> Anyway, when you said you amend the compost do you actually mean that you put meals (i.e. kelp, crab, etc) in your compost first and let the microbes process them before you put the amended compost in your no till pots/raised beds? Comes to think of it, this is almost like vermacomposting where we let the worms process the amendments, food scraps, etc and harvest the worm casting.


Exactly. I feed BAS craft blend to my worm bin at a rate of 1/4 cup every 2 weeks. The casting are amazing.


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## m4s73r (Mar 10, 2021)

This thread dudes. Im 20 days from harvest and I took a couple of really cool shots. I attribute my success to this thread a lot. So I started this No till thing 5 years ago. Im sure if i looked i could find my posts back in the 200 pages somewhere. My garden has become such my hobby that my wife is SICK of hearing about it. Ive started a new bed as well. So just some pics and just giving back for others including some tips.

Tip one: Get your Aloe on. Cloning, plant food, whetting agent... im not going to go on. Just grow it and then go figure out why. 



Tip 2. Mulch. Whenever i get asked about my grow being so clean, i always say the same thing, my soil is a living organism that will devour organic material like a fat kid eats cake. All Sticks, stems, roots, leaves, trim, leftover runs through the hash machine, ewc, amendments, get fed to the bed. Hell can you grow some shit to then chop down and feed the bed. Above you can see the clover. I mow that shit like grass to feed the bed. Did you feed your bed today?



Tip 3. MULCH

 


Tip 4: 5% rule. for every 20 gallons of soil water 1 gallon. I have 220 gallons of soil. I water 11 gallons. 



Final tip. Rocks. Nice and flat, give a home to the bugs. I use 4. clear away the mulch layer and put them right on the soil. pack your mulch in around them.


I proly should have told you to mulch again...


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## bobrown14 (Mar 10, 2021)

@unfiltered - yes you got it. Minerals and rock dust too. That helps the worms digestion.

Lets say I bought some crappy feather meal for some dumb reason. I can add it into the vermi-bin. Worms make short work of it.


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 12, 2021)

Is there a special way to let the coots mix cook? Was thinking of using some black white poly and putting the black side up and covering the mix and adding water every so often to remoisten.


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## m4s73r (Mar 12, 2021)

I dont really cook mine. When i first mixed up my new Hugel bed it got up to 90 for a few days then was back down. I will say this, Keep your pile under a yard. You start getting over a yard and you have to worry about it going thermal. So keep that in mind. split it up if your doing it like that and rest it in 2 piles.


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## SouthernSoil* (Mar 13, 2021)

Anyway that neem oil can be used as a replacement for neem seed meal ? Maybe mixing the oil with water and adding it to the mix ?


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 13, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> I dont really cook mine. When i first mixed up my new Hugel bed it got up to 90 for a few days then was back down. I will say this, Keep your pile under a yard. You start getting over a yard and you have to worry about it going thermal. So keep that in mind. split it up if your doing it like that and rest it in 2 piles.


Ill be at 16CF or a little over half a cubic yard. Trying to do 12 10gal pots. Which I read theres like 1.33CF in a 10gal pot. Debating digging holes and filling with my mix vs using pots.

Thanks for sharing your garden. Looks killer.


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 13, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> I dont really cook mine. When i first mixed up my new Hugel bed it got up to 90 for a few days then was back down. I will say this, Keep your pile under a yard. You start getting over a yard and you have to worry about it going thermal. So keep that in mind. split it up if your doing it like that and rest it in 2 piles.


What is your mix like? I wanna start buying ingredients. The clover cover crop do you just sprinkle seeds periodically? How do you mow just use scissors? Do you bury the foliage that you add or just leave on the top. The rocks are a cool idea. Since ill be in pots and not a bed not sure if that will work.


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## m4s73r (Mar 13, 2021)

SouthernSoil* said:


> Anyway that neem oil can be used as a replacement for neem seed meal ? Maybe mixing the oil with water and adding it to the mix ?


I suppose you could, but why? Do you just like mixing things?


firsttimeARE said:


> Ill be at 16CF or a little over half a cubic yard. Trying to do 12 10gal pots. Which I read theres like 1.33CF in a 10gal pot. Debating digging holes and filling with my mix vs using pots.
> 
> Thanks for sharing your garden. Looks killer.


1cuft is 7.5 gallons if measured correctly. However not all manufactures do this, in some cases its more like 7 gallons. FFOF is a solid 10 gallons for 1.5 cuft. Here is a link to the lastest mix i made. https://www.rollitup.org/t/m4s73rs-perpetual-organic-led-grow.1033634/post-16170553
I sow it in once and just keep it growing. It maintain its self. And you got it just, chop it with scissors. I use these https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07YDBYY7Y/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o09_s02?ie=UTF8&psc=1
Just leave it on top. Done use the rocks in pots. But make sure you have mulch/hay for the clover. Dont use clover in pots smaller then 25 gallon. Your cannabis plant will fight your clover and your crop with suffer.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 14, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> My garden has become such my hobby that my wife is SICK of hearing about it. Ive started a new bed as well. So just some pics and just giving back for others including some tips.
> 
> Tip 1: Get your Aloe on. Cloning, plant food, whetting agent... im not going to go on. Just grow it and then go figure out why.
> 
> ...


Never thought about rocks indoors. We use them in our outdoor beds. Thanks for the tip. 

Ever try leaf mold for your mulch layer? We moved to a new home so didn't have our vermi-bins up and running so we hadda get creative and used leaf mold as the mulch. Works GREAT. Saved our garden we had a drought last outdoor season. Lost 2 out of 11 cannabis plants.


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## Mr Westmont (Mar 14, 2021)

Hey guys, just wanted to do a Living Soil picture dump for historical purposes. All plants are grown in living soil/No-till/Organic/Vegan. Have fun! (ill add strain names later).


Mr. Westmont


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## Mr Westmont (Mar 14, 2021)




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## m4s73r (Mar 14, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Never thought about rocks indoors. We use them in our outdoor beds. Thanks for the tip.
> 
> Ever try leaf mold for your mulch layer? We moved to a new home so didn't have our vermi-bins up and running so we hadda get creative and used leaf mold as the mulch. Works GREAT. Saved our garden we had a drought last outdoor season. Lost 2 out of 11 cannabis plants.


Yes sir, got 3 black garbage bags outside just cooking in the sun full of leaves. My leaf mulch is now always 3 years cooked. I only use one bag a year so i got a good rotation now. With the new second bed i may move up to 2 bags. Well see. Had i not needed to make this bed as soon as I did, I would have waited till next year and bagged up enough leaves to cook all summer. But as they say, proper planning prevents piss poor progress.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 15, 2021)

You like cooking the leaves in black contractor bags?? Does it go faster than say a compost pile with leaves mixed in? We add leaves to the vermi bins and make piles along the edge of the woods. 

Vermi bins take a bit of time to get "mature" or properly cured. Will be our first compost this spring from out Vermi bins we set up in 2019 at our new place. We have wooded portion of our lot so we can harvest the wild stuff. That could me many years old. We gotta make a trail to get to the good stuff. We gotta get in and out before the tics wake up.

Freaking tics.. got Lyme 2x since moving here in 2019. 2nd round was very bad and still in recovery.


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## m4s73r (Mar 15, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> You like cooking the leaves in black contractor bags?? Does it go faster than say a compost pile with leaves mixed in? We add leaves to the vermi bins and make piles along the edge of the woods.
> 
> Vermi bins take a bit of time to get "mature" or properly cured. Will be our first compost this spring from out Vermi bins we set up in 2019 at our new place. We have wooded portion of our lot so we can harvest the wild stuff. That could me many years old. We gotta make a trail to get to the good stuff. We gotta get in and out before the tics wake up.
> 
> Freaking tics.. got Lyme 2x since moving here in 2019. 2nd round was very bad and still in recovery.


 Well compost and leaf mold aren't exactly the same thing. Leaf mold goes through a fungal break down, where as compost piles go through a bacterial break down. Same end result. But throwing them in black garbage bags and just wetting them down takes no thought. Where as with compost I got to have the right amount of green and brown, Maybe a starter...ect. And imo the texture of just plain leaf mold is nicer then compost. Its... fluffier? I dont know, once you play with you'll understand what i mean. its not grainy like ewc. I do recommend spending the money on either a leaf vacuum or a standing shredder. That will really cut down on the decomp time as well make a finer product in the end.
Yeah with a wooded a lot thats great. Avoid cedar, black walnut, and black locust. Pine is okay if you have no other option. I prefer oak and maple. One is soft one is hard. It will take awhile for all that wood to break down. I'm not familure with worm bins taking so long to "mature". My worm bin was dumping casting out after a few months.


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## SouthernSoil* (Mar 16, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> I suppose you could, but why? Do you just like mixing things?


Lol i bit the bullet and ordered the neem seed meal & crab/lobster meal for 100$ including shipping, not bad considering the crop i should get out of it. Have you possibly tried the stuff from Zatural ( organic neem cake ) though ? And hopefully Neptunes Crab and Lobster meal isnt too bad. Only one that would ship to my side of the planet.


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## hillbill (Mar 16, 2021)

Neem Cake is what remains after oil is extracted. They do not have the same properties and Neem Oil will not feed your plants.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 16, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Well compost and leaf mold aren't exactly the same thing. Leaf mold goes through a fungal break down, where as compost piles go through a bacterial break down. Same end result. But throwing them in black garbage bags and just wetting them down takes no thought. Where as with compost I got to have the right amount of green and brown, Maybe a starter...ect. And imo the texture of just plain leaf mold is nicer then compost. Its... fluffier? I dont know, once you play with you'll understand what i mean. its not grainy like ewc. I do recommend spending the money on either a leaf vacuum or a standing shredder. That will really cut down on the decomp time as well make a finer product in the end.
> Yeah with a wooded a lot thats great. Avoid cedar, black walnut, and black locust. Pine is okay if you have no other option. I prefer oak and maple. One is soft one is hard. It will take awhile for all that wood to break down. I'm not familure with worm bins taking so long to "mature". My worm bin was dumping casting out after a few months.


Been at composting a long time pretty much all my adult life. I just never tried leaves in bags. Interesting idea.

Aware of leaf mold. We have several acres of woodland. With may tree species. Thinning out the black walnut but I'm good with the leaves. They compost fine.

Our vermi-bins we let cook over winter and fill them all spring summer and fall. We let one go dormant and it finishes off by spring planting time. The longer the vermi-bin goes dormant the better the compost. We run 2 vermi-bins and rotate each winter. Shut one down and start using the empty one and repeat.


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## green_machine_two9er (Mar 16, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> This thread dudes. Im 20 days from harvest and I took a couple of really cool shots. I attribute my success to this thread a lot. So I started this No till thing 5 years ago. Im sure if i looked i could find my posts back in the 200 pages somewhere. My garden has become such my hobby that my wife is SICK of hearing about it. Ive started a new bed as well. So just some pics and just giving back for others including some tips.
> 
> Tip one: Get your Aloe on. Cloning, plant food, whetting agent... im not going to go on. Just grow it and then go figure out why.
> 
> ...


Nice stuff. I wondering about a water % after first time built soil. You think it’s close to that 5%. Sometimes I swear it take so much water to get soil to saturation 
Thanks for the tips !


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## hillbill (Mar 16, 2021)

I mixed up 30 gallons of ROLS a week or two ago and mixed it today and added a gallon or two of water also. Gotta have adequate moisture for the herd


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## m4s73r (Mar 16, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Been at composting a long time pretty much all my adult life. I just never tried leaves in bags. Interesting idea.
> 
> Aware of leaf mold. We have several acres of woodland. With may tree species. Thinning out the black walnut but I'm good with the leaves. They compost fine.
> 
> Our vermi-bins we let cook over winter and fill them all spring summer and fall. We let one go dormant and it finishes off by spring planting time. The longer the vermi-bin goes dormant the better the compost. We run 2 vermi-bins and rotate each winter. Shut one down and start using the empty one and repeat.


Are we talking about worm piles being ate by worms. How are you moving all the worms? Im just making sure our lingo is the same here is all. I run a worm bing indoors. so Im not familure with worm piles outside? Shutting them down? I mean once their a pile of shit dont the worms just go to a new food source? Im interested for sure. Tell me more about this process. Id like to do the worms outside if i could. Does it freeze where you live? How do you handle winter? Im going to be honest, never looked into any of this so point me to a article i should read and im all about it..



hillbill said:


> Neem Cake is what remains after oil is extracted. They do not have the same properties and Neem Oil will not feed your plants.


So are you saying that that neem that i have mixed into my soil mix and top dressings will not have the same insecticide properties as neem oil does? I thought that was the point of neem. Tell me more. Shit I never did much reading into it.



green_machine_two9er said:


> Nice stuff. I wondering about a water % after first time built soil. You think it’s close to that 5%. Sometimes I swear it take so much water to get soil to saturation
> Thanks for the tips !


Keep in mind that I also water with aloe. Now as a wetting agent that makes it so all the peat in your soil mixes takes that water in. Now dont get me wrong. Late bloom, ive been known to go back and give them an extra 5 percent straight from the tap. But I never EVER accede 10 percent. EVER. Let me say that again just to make sure everyone is listening. We dont EVER go over 10 percent lol


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## Medskunk (Mar 16, 2021)

Would appreciate a recommendation on how to acidify my soil *slightly*?

Currently in my 2nd cycle and noticed the soils ph rises 0.1 every 2-3 months. In all three pots! Im watering with ph7 all along now stands at 7.3


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## m4s73r (Mar 16, 2021)

Medskunk said:


> Would appreciate a recommendation on how to acidify my soil *slightly*?
> 
> Currently in my 2nd cycle and noticed the soils ph rises 0.1 every 2-3 months. In all three pots! Im watering with ph7 all along now stands at 7.3


how much are you mulching? Mulching and decompostion makes your soil acidic. so whats your mulch layer look like?


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## Medskunk (Mar 17, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> how much are you mulching? Mulching and decompostion makes your soil acidic. so whats your mulch layer look like?


No mulch at all. Just a few defoliated leaves around. You think some sort of straw would make it?


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## m4s73r (Mar 17, 2021)

well mulching will increase acidity. that way when you water with neutral ph it will balance out. Go to your local nursery and look for composted mulch. throw that on top to start. Start mulching. Meanwhile, got a pic of your plants?


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## Medskunk (Mar 17, 2021)

I do have a small hay bale but its been sitting outside for ages. After a spidermite run i had last year im hesitant to bring stuff from outside.

Heres one from two weeks ago at 63 days veg


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## bobrown14 (Mar 17, 2021)

Medskunk said:


> Would appreciate a recommendation on how to acidify my soil *slightly*?
> 
> Currently in my 2nd cycle and noticed the soils ph rises 0.1 every 2-3 months. In all three pots! Im watering with ph7 all along now stands at 7.3


Lower the pH of your water can use vitamin C powder. Can bring the water pH down to low 6pH and shouldn't be harmful to the plants or the microherd.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 17, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Are we talking about worm piles being ate by worms. How are you moving all the worms? Im just making sure our lingo is the same here is all. I run a worm bing indoors. so Im not familure with worm piles outside? Shutting them down? I mean once their a pile of shit dont the worms just go to a new food source? Im interested for sure. Tell me more about this process. Id like to do the worms outside if i could. Does it freeze where you live? How do you handle winter? Im going to be honest, never looked into any of this so point me to a article i should read and im all about it..
> 
> 
> So are you saying that that neem that i have mixed into my soil mix and top dressings will not have the same insecticide properties as neem oil does? I thought that was the point of neem. Tell me more. Shit I never did much reading into it.


Neem cake in the soil mix will help with pests for sure. Neem oil well I wood never spray that on cannabis. Tried it once ruined my flowers nasty taste left and I used it in VEG not flower and bud washed. Neem cake I add to my soil mix and amend with it between runs.

On the worm thing. We run Vermi-composting bins. Its not a worm farm. The bins are 50 or more meters from our home because country living and critters LOVE compost. 

Yeah so a vermi-bin is kitchen scraps, some yard waste leaves and I add some soil amendments like kelp meal and rock dust when I feel like it. The bins will attract worms and they will populate the bin. We use the bin and the worms eat the waste. In winter time temps are low enough worms die off after laying eggs. We let one bin after the winter time go dormant and begin using a 2nd bin full time. 

As the dormant bin sits the compost breaks down ever further - it's not 100% EWC its composted scraps mixed with worm castings and eventually more worms. The worms in the bin make it to my containers or garden beds. 
We take that dormant bin in the spring and sift it thru a screen and toss the larger particles back into the active bin and repeat. 

Our vermi bins are 100 plus gallons and have a locking lid.... yup raccoons figure out how to open it and cats dig their way in. The challenge is real. Bears just tackle the whole shebang and why we have anther open pile we add bones and meat scraps to. Thats where the bear and the crows eat.


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## Medskunk (Mar 18, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Lower the pH of your water can use vitamin C powder. Can bring the water pH down to low 6pH and shouldn't be harmful to the plants or the microherd.


Thanks for the response. Will try the leaves mulch for now and whatever comes i guess, cause everytime i ph'ed the water lower than 7 i got weird issues. 



What if i bake the hay straw i have? Would that kill possible pests in it??


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## DonPetro (Mar 18, 2021)

Medskunk said:


> Thanks for the response. Will try the leaves mulch for now and whatever comes i guess, cause everytime i ph'ed the water lower than 7 i got weird issues.
> 
> 
> 
> What if i bake the hay straw i have? Would that kill possible pests in it??


Go to the pet store and get a bag of timothy hay. Even wood chips would work.


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## Medskunk (Mar 18, 2021)

DonPetro said:


> Go to the pet store and get a bag of timothy hay. Even wood chips would work.


Cant believe i havent thought of this. Thanks. Hope i wont get nitrogen sucking issues


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## hillbill (Mar 18, 2021)

Spider mites, Centipedes and 5 Lined Skinks and unidentified reptile eggs have made me very cautious about bringing the outdoors indoors.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 18, 2021)

Medskunk said:


> Thanks for the response. Will try the leaves mulch for now and whatever comes i guess, cause everytime i ph'ed the water lower than 7 i got weird issues.
> 
> 
> 
> What if i bake the hay straw i have? Would that kill possible pests in it??


Can top dress/mulch with some peat moss thats dampish and water thru the peat to slightly lower pH. 

Sulfur is another option but you gotta be absolutely sure you need it. 

You can have water pH between 6-7pH and you should be totally good. 

What water are you testing ?? Run off / slurry test / tap water???


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## Medskunk (Mar 18, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Can top dress/mulch with some peat moss thats dampish and water thru the peat to slightly lower pH.
> 
> Sulfur is another option but you gotta be absolutely sure you need it.
> 
> ...



Got the tent in my room so any chemical or peat is out of the window lol
Definitely going for the timothy hay option! Hyped!! 

I water from tap ppm is about 110. Sometimes i do water below 7 in the last week or so but i chicken out to do this earlier in the grow


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## Rurumo (Mar 18, 2021)

Medskunk said:


> Got the tent in my room so any chemical or peat is out of the window lol
> Definitely going for the timothy hay option! Hyped!!
> 
> I water from tap ppm is about 110. Sometimes i do water below 7 in the last week or so but i chicken out to do this earlier in the grow


I've used different kinds of hay a lot in the past, it's easier to find unsprayed hay than straw because people want it for their guinea pigs n bunnies. Keep in mind, you'll get a lot of sprouts. Hay has more seeds than straw. It's also a little hotter than straw.


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## m4s73r (Mar 18, 2021)

All these things about Nitrogen, seeds, being hot ect is why I said composted mulch from a nursery. It will avoid all of these issues and its a jump start on your composting mulch layer.


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## m4s73r (Mar 18, 2021)

Nature's Way Composted Mulch, 1 Cu. Ft. Walmart


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## hillbill (Mar 18, 2021)

Hay has more seeds than straw.
Hay has all the seeds that straw does not. You will have a lawn.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 18, 2021)

Medskunk said:


> Got the tent in my room so any chemical or peat is out of the window lol
> Definitely going for the timothy hay option! Hyped!!
> 
> I water from tap ppm is about 110. Sometimes i do water below 7 in the last week or so but i chicken out to do this earlier in the grow


Peat moss is a natural organic soil ingredient. 
You should be using water with a pH UNDER 7 all thru your grow. Specially if you're using and fertilizers. 

ppm measurement doesnt tell you much about what those ppm's actually are..


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## Rurumo (Mar 18, 2021)

I'm going to be using biochar in my next batch of soil. Do you guys find you need to make any adjustments due to its high ph? The stuff I'm getting isn't too high-7.5 I think, and I'll be soaking it in fish hydrolysate...thinking of adding it as 5 to 10% of the mix.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 18, 2021)

Peat moss is acidic


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## m4s73r (Mar 18, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Neem cake in the soil mix will help with pests for sure. Neem oil well I wood never spray that on cannabis. Tried it once ruined my flowers nasty taste left and I used it in VEG not flower and bud washed. Neem cake I add to my soil mix and amend with it between runs.
> 
> On the worm thing. We run Vermi-composting bins. Its not a worm farm. The bins are 50 or more meters from our home because country living and critters LOVE compost.
> 
> ...


Well, I dont run anything like that. Shit I wish I could. Id take bear and crow over HOA Linda and her fucking hair. I digress. Here is what I'm rocking for both of these beds. It does well and I have plenty of casting churning out of it. I do screen my ewc with a 1/12th sifter works well to seperate the worms from the castings.


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## Medskunk (Mar 19, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> All these things about Nitrogen, seeds, being hot ect is why I said composted mulch from a nursery. It will avoid all of these issues and its a jump start on your composting mulch layer.


Composted mulch sounds like the best option there is from the get go. Its hard to find some stuff where im from. Thanks for the input dude.




bobrown14 said:


> Peat moss is a natural organic soil ingredient.
> You should be using water with a pH UNDER 7 all thru your grow. Specially if you're using and fertilizers.
> 
> ppm measurement doesnt tell you much about what those ppm's actually are..


Whenever i start with fresh well digested compost the plants go like crazy. If i water anything less than ph7 they get yellow those Ditches


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## hillbill (Mar 19, 2021)

It’s nice to have a few gallons of semi saturated SPM on hand, it’s nicer if a tbs of limestone and one of dolomite and Soft Rock Phosphate are mixed into each gallon.


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## Kp sunshine (Mar 19, 2021)

hillbill said:


> It’s nice to have a few gallons of semi saturated SPM on hand, it’s nicer if a tbs of limestone and one of dolomite and Soft Rock Phosphate are mixed into each gallon.


What’s SPM Bill?


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## Rurumo (Mar 19, 2021)

Kp sunshine said:


> What’s SPM Bill?


i think he's talking about sphagnum moss.


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## hillbill (Mar 19, 2021)

Actually the Sphagnum Peat Moss is under the Moss.


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 20, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Can top dress/mulch with some peat moss thats dampish and water thru the peat to slightly lower pH.
> 
> Sulfur is another option but you gotta be absolutely sure you need it.
> 
> ...


My water at my house is 10.4 can this be used with soil or should I bring it down?


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## bobrown14 (Mar 20, 2021)

firsttimeARE said:


> My water at my house is 10.4 can this be used with soil or should I bring it down?


If in containers yes - you have about 3 weeks to change - or slow death.

Can lower pH like that with Vitamin C powder. WAY cheaper than pH down and organic. 

Need to solve your alkalynity issues with you water long term.


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 21, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> If in containers yes - you have about 3 weeks to change - or slow death.
> 
> Can lower pH like that with Vitamin C powder. WAY cheaper than pH down and organic.
> 
> Need to solve your alkalynity issues with you water long term.


How do i do change it long term aside from moving?

No wonder my veggies suffer every year


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## hillbill (Mar 21, 2021)

What is in water with a 10.4 ph, seems like a potent anti acid.


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 21, 2021)

hillbill said:


> What is in water with a 10.4 ph, seems like a potent anti acid.


Calcium carbonate mostly. I got my water tested when I first moved in 7 years ago.

Its only 90ppm 0.18EC but 45ppm is CaCO3


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## bobrown14 (Mar 21, 2021)

High alkalinity is why high pH - they are related but not the same. I'm not a chemist but I have the same issues.

@firsttimeARE with veggies and high pH - as long as your in the ground it wont matter only is an issue with container gardening like we are doing. 

To fix your water issue for container gardening here's what I did.

RO water filter with a De-ionization 4th stage added. 

RO = reverse osmosis good for you too so use that water for cooking and drinking. You will likely need multivitamins since you're removing all nutrients from the water source (and pollutants). I hadda start taking Vitamin D.

RO Filter - I use RO Buddie from the zon - 60bucks then add-on DI filter for another $15 or so. Can re-fill the DI filter down the road. Makes it super easy. 

Then check your pH out of the RO filter to be sure you're on track.

I'm on a well in a dolomite lime deposit. We got a crap ton of cal/mag in the water. Good for bathing... bad for everything else and pH can go up to 11pH and it fluctuates a bunch.


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## Rurumo (Mar 21, 2021)

firsttimeARE said:


> Calcium carbonate mostly. I got my water tested when I first moved in 7 years ago.
> 
> Its only 90ppm 0.18EC but 45ppm is CaCO3


I like citric acid as a PH down, but I do use a small amount of vitamin C powder to remove chlorine/chloramine.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 21, 2021)

I'm organic soil so dont use citric acid. 90% of citric acid is synthetic made in china.


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## Mr Westmont (Mar 22, 2021)

Do you guys really check your PH like that? I have never checked my PH. I mean dont all the worm castings buffer the PH? Maybe Im lucky for ok tap water, cause I use it everyday in my indoor and outdoor garden.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 23, 2021)

I'm in a well in a dolomite lime 300 million year old sea bed. Well water is 9-10pH with enough cal/mag to kill plants in containers. So RO filters work. Need to check ppms and pH 1x a week. The alkalinity is an issue as well is not quite the same as pH but related.


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## hillbill (Mar 23, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I'm in a well in a dolomite lime 300 million year old sea bed. Well water is 9-10pH with enough cal/mag to kill plants in containers. So RO filters work. Need to check ppms and pH 1x a week. The alkalinity is an issue as well is not quite the same as pH but related.


On a deep municipal well all limestone and dolomite famous for minerals, we filter our coffee and drink water. Bad taste and coffee is the worst otherwise. Most plumber service calls are lime related. Mostly use rainwater.


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## Rurumo (Mar 23, 2021)

have you guys seen this guy's grow? https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuana-growing/indoor-grows-soil/376080-notill-scrog-living-soil-organic
He's basically using a Cootz type mix, but with 6 cups of assorted rock dusts, and 7 cups of amendments. I found it because I've been looking for people who use zeolite in their no till mix. He uses .5 cup per cu ft, which is what I was thinking. He also uses .5 cup langbeinite and .25 cup epsom salt, which seems crazy to me but he got good results. I LOVE when people go off the books and create their own crazy mixes.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 23, 2021)

I dont think I use 7 cups of amendments. Its been a while since I did my last Coots mix. Going to mix another batch tomorrow 

I will report back


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## Rurumo (Mar 24, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I dont think I use 7 cups of amendments. Its been a while since I did my last Coots mix. Going to mix another batch tomorrow
> 
> I will report back


let me know what you end up using for amendments. I have a bunch of recipes written down in my notebook, but I think a typical cootz mix has 3 cups of amendments and maybe 4 cups of rock dusts. 7 cups of amendments seemed really high to me, especially all the magnesium he used, but you can't argue with his results, it was a beautiful grow. One thing that probably had an impact was that he composted the mix for a full 2 months.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 24, 2021)

I do 4 cups of amendments
1 cup kelp meal
1 cup crustacean meal
1 cup Karanja Neem cake
1 cup malted grain (1/4 organic corn, 1/4 organic buckwheat, 1/2 organic barley)

and 4 cups of rock dusts that includes

1 cup Gypsum
1 cup basalt dust
1 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup oystershell flour

Add the above to every cubic foot of soil mix

Peat - Compost - perlite/rice hulls - all 1/3 of total.

so 6 cubic feet of peat - 6 cubic feet compost - 4 cubic feet perlite and 2 cubic feet rice hulls.

Add in biochar/compost mix about 20#s worth might be about 3 gallons to the entire pile.

Maybe sprinkle some extra neem cake on top of the pile to get the microherd fired up.

I have all of this in bulk

I'm making a big batch this time 18-20 cubic feet of mix so I bought the Coots Kit x 2 from BAS this time around just so I can dump and mix no measuring.

I like to have heavy hand with Kelp and malted grains first go around.

I put down a large tarp on the blacktop driveway semi-shaded) then pile of ingredients mix with a ho then cover with another tarp. Let it sit and use in a few days as top dress in our gardens the rest into totes for use in containers no-till.

Be mixing another batch like this in April for prep for outdoor containers.


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## Rurumo (Mar 24, 2021)

I'm going to let mine compost for a month-I'm going to be using some alfalfa meal. I'm definitely using the malted barley from the beginning. Do any of you guys use Bokashi bran? I see some people using it in their recipes.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 24, 2021)

I throw some on top of each soil bin (30 gals) when the soil sits idle waiting to go into containers. Once all the mycelium die back its ready. Like 2 weeks. Just cant plant seedlings in that mix.

I use already used soil for seedlings.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 24, 2021)

Oh yeah once I do the mix and wait a few days when I put soil into my totes I take some soil samples and mix them and send in a sample to get tested at our county extension service.

I'll have a baseline and will take another soil test next spring.

Send these samples in along with soil sample of our large veggie garden. Do this every spring.

Soil sample test used to be free here in NYS but they now are charging me $13 per test. It's 8 bucks in PA.


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## loco41 (Mar 25, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> have you guys seen this guy's grow? https://www.icmag.com/forum/marijuana-growing/indoor-grows-soil/376080-notill-scrog-living-soil-organic
> He's basically using a Cootz type mix, but with 6 cups of assorted rock dusts, and 7 cups of amendments. I found it because I've been looking for people who use zeolite in their no till mix. He uses .5 cup per cu ft, which is what I was thinking. He also uses .5 cup langbeinite and .25 cup epsom salt, which seems crazy to me but he got good results. I LOVE when people go off the books and create their own crazy mixes.


I'll have to check out his grow, but that's exactly what draws me to organics. I'll always use coots recipe as a "base" but every time I mix up some soil it's always a little different since I have some other things on hand. I'm curious to see how some of my newly mixed soil does with some outside plants this year. Only alfalfa/kelp/dusts added to the peat, compost and hulls. I think it all really boils down to compost quality used though first and foremost, everything else plays off of that (more so the early stages of the soil mix probably). 

I love alfalfa though. I use it in soil mixes, in the worm bins and a nute tea from time to time. I know I've read mixed feelings on alfalfa, but I'm not experienced enough to weigh in on all that. I know the worms like it, the soil microbes get started on it quickly (fast mycellium growth when sprinkled on top) and the plants pray when watered with a simple alfalfa/kelp/neem type tea. 

Sorry for the rambling though, just my two cents on some random things..


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## Rurumo (Mar 25, 2021)

loco41 said:


> I'll have to check out his grow, but that's exactly what draws me to organics. I'll always use coots recipe as a "base" but every time I mix up some soil it's always a little different since I have some other things on hand. I'm curious to see how some of my newly mixed soil does with some outside plants this year. Only alfalfa/kelp/dusts added to the peat, compost and hulls. I think it all really boils down to compost quality used though first and foremost, everything else plays off of that (more so the early stages of the soil mix probably).
> 
> I love alfalfa though. I use it in soil mixes, in the worm bins and a nute tea from time to time. I know I've read mixed feelings on alfalfa, but I'm not experienced enough to weigh in on all that. I know the worms like it, the soil microbes get started on it quickly (fast mycellium growth when sprinkled on top) and the plants pray when watered with a simple alfalfa/kelp/neem type tea.
> 
> Sorry for the rambling though, just my two cents on some random things..


I love alfalfa too, it's the main amendment for my outdoor beds. I get bags of alfalfa pellets for horses from the feed store every year and scatter a good layer on top of my outdoor beds after I harvest everything in the fall, then just till them in a little. By spring time they are part of the bed and no longer hot, but the seedlings go nuts every year. I think the main reason they don't use it in Cootz mix is because it's meant to be able to be used right away, wheras alfalfa needs time to compost into the blend. It's awesome stuff though, basically the kelp of the land, it's so nutritious.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 25, 2021)

High N in alfalfa heats up the pile or soil mix. You hafta wait that out. I can use coots mix next day.

Feeding it to the vermi-bin tho, that's the way to do it and use the vermi-compost in your mix, now we got something.


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## loco41 (Mar 25, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> High N in alfalfa heats up the pile or soil mix. You hafta wait that out. I can use coots mix next day.
> 
> Feeding it to the vermi-bin tho, that's the way to do it and use the vermi-compost in your mix, now we got something.


Probably should know the answer to this question by now, but what makes alfalfa "hotter" than something like neem? Does it all have to do with how fast it breaks down? I just read the 2.5-1-2.5 alfalfa as being more balanced than the 6-1-2 of neem ( pulled these out of my ass so sorry if they're off). Just curious on your take before I dive into Google later tonight to get more versed in the technicalities.


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## Rurumo (Mar 25, 2021)

loco41 said:


> Probably should know the answer to this question by now, but what makes alfalfa "hotter" than something like neem? Does it all have to do with how fast it breaks down? I just read the 2.5-1-2.5 alfalfa as being more balanced than the 6-1-2 of neem ( pulled these out of my ass so sorry if they're off). Just curious on your take before I dive into Google later tonight to get more versed in the technicalities.


that's a really good question. I have no idea why alfalfa is a "hotter" amendment than neem despite a lower N rating-hopefully someone here does!


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## bobrown14 (Mar 25, 2021)

Green manure I'm thinking. Its fast release and cooks hot. Neen takes much longer to break down fer sure. 

If you want your compost pile to heat up without adding manure - add alfalfa meal.


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## bodhipop (Mar 25, 2021)

Tripling up on soil this year for food with coots mix as the base.
Acquiring compost/ewc from multiple sources but I wondered how to incorporate some local clay/loam soil into the mix or if it's even worth it.
It's heavily mulched every year with not much sunlight but it's covered with growth - nettle and all types of little plants. If I added proper aeration then this clay/loam soil could add some bennies to the mix right?


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## bobrown14 (Mar 25, 2021)

get a local clay/loan soil test see where you're at.


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## lakesidegrower (Mar 26, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I'm going to let mine compost for a month-I'm going to be using some alfalfa meal. I'm definitely using the malted barley from the beginning. Do any of you guys use Bokashi bran? I see some people using it in their recipes.


Just mixed up 7cuft soil a few weeks ago, used bokashi bran I made, as well as ground malted barley and malted rye (has slightly higher phosphorus % compared to barley). That’s in addition to about 2 cups amendments per cuft with and overall balanced n-p-k ratio (Gaia all purp, frass, guano, alfalfa, kelp, fish bone, shrimp meal, rock phosphate). 4 cups rock dust per cuft and about 8 cups in total of cal/mg amendments (powdered eggshells, dolomite, gypsum) which is pretty light compared to most mixes. Base is 1:1:1 - peat : compost/ewc : perlite/rice hulls/lava rock.

I went with 3 cups of bokashi bran into 7 cuft, and 1.5c each of the barley and rye. Also added 12c of biochar charged with kelp, alfalfa, ewc and fish emulsion. Hoping for good results lol


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## Rurumo (Mar 26, 2021)

lakesidegrower said:


> Just mixed up 7cuft soil a few weeks ago, used bokashi bran I made, as well as ground malted barley and malted rye (has slightly higher phosphorus % compared to barley). That’s in addition to about 2 cups amendments per cuft with and overall balanced n-p-k ratio (Gaia all purp, frass, guano, alfalfa, kelp, fish bone, shrimp meal, rock phosphate). 4 cups rock dust per cuft and about 8 cups in total of cal/mg amendments (powdered eggshells, dolomite, gypsum) which is pretty light compared to most mixes. Base is 1:1:1 - peat : compost/ewc : perlite/rice hulls/lava rock.
> 
> I went with 3 cups of bokashi bran into 7 cuft, and 1.5c each of the barley and rye. Also added 12c of biochar charged with kelp, alfalfa, ewc and fish emulsion. Hoping for good results lol


I think you'll do awesome with that! I'm pretty hyped to try out biochar after reading about that legendary terra preta soil in the amazon that's super fertile after hundreds of years. I'm also going slightly "off book" with amendments-adding some alfalfa, fish bone meal too. Cootz always left out bone meals, but one thing I've learned in my outdoor grows is that fish bone meal especially produces extremely dank buds. Not sure why exactly, it might just be the fish proteins because I get the same effect from fish compost and fish hydrolysate. I see no reason to leave out the phosphorus rich bone meals because the research I've read shows that these organic sources of P don't suppress the microbiome like high P mineral salts do. I've been totally unable to locate either pumic or lava rocks locally and the 5 cubic feet I would need would cost me $200+ from BAS. The really irritating thing is I could buy a pallet of like 57 bags of 3/8" lava rock from a distributor 40 min away from me for...you guessed it, $200.... but I'd need to get someone to deliver it. So I'm just going to use perlite, which I already have, lol. Good luck with your grow, looking forward to seeing all these new projects people have been working on bear fruit!


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## hillbill (Mar 26, 2021)

Alfalfa is partially fermented and then dried and made into Alfalfa Meal.


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## bobrown14 (Mar 26, 2021)

hillbill said:


> Alfalfa is partially fermented and then dried and made into Alfalfa Meal.


Ill give it to the worms. yum yum yum


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 28, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I do 4 cups of amendments
> 1 cup kelp meal
> 1 cup crustacean meal
> 1 cup Karanja Neem cake
> ...


What size mix did you order from buildasoil? I havea similar size batch i need to make

Have 7CF rice hulls, 6CF EWC and 6CF SPM

How do you cook your indoor soil? Do you feed any aloe and coconut teas throughout the grow?

I wanna try soil indoors. Been growing hydro for 10 years now and wanna do something different


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## bobrown14 (Mar 28, 2021)

I ordered the 3.8cu ft for 110bucks. 3.8 bale of peat fluffs up to 6 cu ft. I used less aeration but it was about 4 cu ft of perlite and rice hulls together. but 6 cu ft of compost and the 6 cu ft of peat and the 4 cu ft of aeration. 

I always go a little light on the aeration for some reason. Doesn't seem to make a difference. It might compact more over time but it hasn't turned out that way. I'm starting to not really like perlite anymore. cough cough that shit sucks tbh.


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 28, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I ordered the 3.8cu ft for 110bucks. 3.8 bale of peat fluffs up to 6 cu ft. I used less aeration but it was about 4 cu ft of perlite and rice hulls together. but 6 cu ft of compost and the 6 cu ft of peat and the 4 cu ft of aeration.
> 
> I always go a little light on the aeration for some reason. Doesn't seem to make a difference. It might compact more over time but it hasn't turned out that way. I'm starting to not really like perlite anymore. cough cough that shit sucks tbh.


You got me on the rice hulls I believe. Not sure if I should get all the ingredients separate or buy a mix. Everyone has coots mix different. I contacted KIS Organics on their mix and it was really off on quantities.


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## SouthernSoil* (Mar 31, 2021)

good day all, could i ask if im using two mixes which have dolomite lime and calcitic lime would it be better to use de chlorinated tap water or R.O water? I already have R.O water but we mineralize with himalayan salt, ive been thinking about installing a mineralizer on the last stage and splitting the two if needed.


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## Mohican (Mar 31, 2021)

@Rurumo - I use a ton of Epsom on my sativa strains. Anything that gets red stems


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## Rurumo (Mar 31, 2021)

SouthernSoil* said:


> good day all, could i ask if im using two mixes which have dolomite lime and calcitic lime would it be better to use de chlorinated tap water or R.O water? I already have R.O water but we mineralize with himalayan salt, ive been thinking about installing a mineralizer on the last stage and splitting the two if needed.


It depends on your tap water. Tap water is mostly fine unless it has a super high alkalinity. What is your tap water ph, ppms, and alkalinity/total hardness if you know them? If you live in a municipality you can find the tests online.


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## Rurumo (Mar 31, 2021)

Mohican said:


> @Rurumo - I use a ton of Epsom on my sativa strains. Anything that gets red stems
> 
> View attachment 4867723


I always use it in my coco/mineral salt grows, but I'll def have enough magnesium in my no till mix-unless of course enough is just not available right away. I'm totally convinced that epsom salts help make dank buds-but there are a lot of ways to get that sulfur. I like how people are using lots of gypsum in their no till recipes. Discovering gypsum was a revelation for me in my early outdoor gardening career-it performs magic on clay soils and it has that same "dank bud" effect as epsom.


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## DonPetro (Mar 31, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I always use it in my coco/mineral salt grows, but I'll def have enough magnesium in my no till mix-unless of course enough is just not available right away. I'm totally convinced that epsom salts help make dank buds-but there are a lot of ways to get that sulfur. I like how people are using lots of gypsum in their no till recipes. Discovering gypsum was a revelation for me in my early outdoor gardening career-it performs magic on clay soils and it has that same "dank bud" effect as epsom.





Mohican said:


> @Rurumo - I use a ton of Epsom on my sativa strains. Anything that gets red stems
> 
> View attachment 4867723


How do you guys use the epsom? Just apply to the soil as a topdress or is it in the mix?


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## Mohican (Mar 31, 2021)

Start in the mix and top feed as needed.


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## SouthernSoil* (Apr 1, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> It depends on your tap water. Tap water is mostly fine unless it has a super high alkalinity. What is your tap water ph, ppms, and alkalinity/total hardness if you know them? If you live in a municipality you can find the tests online.


Thanks for the reply Rurumo, i could take a look online but seeing as i live in South-Africa the likelihood of those tests being true are low. The last thing i want is something like arsenic in the water. Let me change the topic. How should i be using R.O water in no-till ?
These are my two mixes : 
Mix 1 : Organic Compost, Vermicompost (worm castings), Sphagnum Peat Moss, Coco Coir, Perlite, Biochar, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Bone Meal, Soft Rock Phosphate, Insect Frass, Dolomite Lime, Gypsum, Basalt Rock Dust, Zeolite, Malted Barley, Diatomaceous Earth, Humic Acid 
Mix 2 : Peat, Pumice, Earthworm castings, alfalfa meal , biochar, crushed barley, zeolite, cannakashi, basalt rock dust, soft rock phosate, diatamaceous earth, seabird guano, gypsum, dolomitic lime & calcitic lime


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## living gardening (Apr 13, 2021)

firsttimeARE said:


> Ive been reading up on organic growing for a little bit now. Still learning but this sounds expensive.
> 
> I want to run 12 plants outdoors in 10gal fabric pots. Id need 18CF. Following coots mix and sourcing all the amendments online im at $180 just in amendments.
> 
> ...


You could try Poultry Grit from a feed mill. Most are made from Granite. This will improve the ec and give you aeration.


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## BeeAreBee (Apr 13, 2021)

My soil has been being worked almost ten years now.
I joined the PFA (probiotic farmers alliance) on Facebook and never looked back. I started in earthboxes and diy versions. But now, all that + some new went into a new grassroots 4x4 soil bed.
Im using chilleds x3 and a diy photoboost strip from green gene. 
Just bought myself some inhouse genetics to kick off the new bed.
Clover Covercrop and companions coming in (like rosemary, lavender, cilantro beans, etc.)

Im Stoked!


Btw, how do i, like , a post or comment? I dont seem to have the option...


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## sirtalis (Apr 15, 2021)

I have some unsprouted 2-row barley seed I bought to grow, and it didn't give me enough yield for brewing beer. 

I'm considering sprouting it, blending it and using it as a top dress then covering with straw. Is that what you guys would do with barley seeds lying around?


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## Northwood (Apr 15, 2021)

BeeAreBee said:


> My soil has been being worked almost ten years now.
> I joined the PFA (probiotic farmers alliance) on Facebook and never looked back. I started in earthboxes and diy versions. But now, all that + some new went into a new grassroots 4x4 soil bed.
> Im using chilleds x3 and a diy photoboost strip from green gene.
> Just bought myself some inhouse genetics to kick off the new bed.
> Clover Covercrop and companions coming in (like rosemary, lavender, cilantro beans, etc.)


Those grassroots beds are pretty cheap here finally, and they would make such an amazing upgrade from my current ghetto setup. I'm just not motivated to change over due to it being a great disturbance to my soil which I've kept in that same pot for 8 cycles now. And when I stared this I used soil in another no-till setup, but 15 gallon bins that were easy to incorporate into the 4" diameter fabric pot without disturbing too much. I had those ones for years.

I'll definitely change over if we ever get a different house or that fabric pot I have now finally falls apart. Lol


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## Nwtexan (Apr 18, 2021)

Curious to hear what folks do with no till and SIPS as far as amending and preparing between cycles. I’m imagining at very least to clean up reservoir of roots and soil. 
What would you do as far as amending? I did the trench thing with a bit of dr earth flower girl. Put some malted barley on top, straw, then plastix


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## m4s73r (Apr 20, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I think you'll do awesome with that! I'm pretty hyped to try out biochar after reading about that legendary terra preta soil in the amazon that's super fertile after hundreds of years. I'm also going slightly "off book" with amendments-adding some alfalfa, fish bone meal too. Cootz always left out bone meals, but one thing I've learned in my outdoor grows is that fish bone meal especially produces extremely dank buds. Not sure why exactly, it might just be the fish proteins because I get the same effect from fish compost and fish hydrolysate. I see no reason to leave out the phosphorus rich bone meals because the research I've read shows that these organic sources of P don't suppress the microbiome like high P mineral salts do. I've been totally unable to locate either pumic or lava rocks locally and the 5 cubic feet I would need would cost me $200+ from BAS. The really irritating thing is I could buy a pallet of like 57 bags of 3/8" lava rock from a distributor 40 min away from me for...you guessed it, $200.... but I'd need to get someone to deliver it. So I'm just going to use perlite, which I already have, lol. Good luck with your grow, looking forward to seeing all these new projects people have been working on bear fruit!


Use vermiculite with that perlite.


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## Vbz.420 (Apr 22, 2021)

With organic living soil would one have to worry about PHing the water each time? Or the microbes do the work?


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## Rurumo (Apr 22, 2021)

Vbz.420 said:


> With organic living soil would one have to worry about PHing the water each time? Or the microbes do the work?


most people will flat out say NO, but it really depends on your water. If your water has very high alkalinity and/or PH then over time you will start seeing things lock out. My water is highly alkaline so I always ph it with citric acid, but I don't outdoors in my veggie garden and I have chronic iron lockout out there. It's equally important to follow the recipes and add enough oyster shell, because people with lower alkalinity water might see the opposite result if they don't lime it enough.


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## Vbz.420 (Apr 22, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> most people will flat out say NO, but it really depends on your water. If your water has very high alkalinity and/or PH then over time you will start seeing things lock out. My water is highly alkaline so I always ph it with citric acid, but I don't outdoors in my veggie garden and I have chronic iron lockout out there. It's equally important to follow the recipes and add enough oyster shell, because people with lower alkalinity water might see the opposite result if they don't lime it enough.


How would that ratio with 2 g pots and 7 ? Realizing its needed would this only work if mixed in soil or can it be top dressed? Since I already mixed my soil about 2 weeks ago for a cook.. Thanks for lookin out as Always Rurumo


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## Rurumo (Apr 22, 2021)

Vbz.420 said:


> How would that ratio with 2 g pots and 7 ? Realizing its needed would this only work if mixed in soil or can it be top dressed? Since I already mixed my soil about 2 weeks ago for a cook.. Thanks for lookin out as Always Rurumo


Which recipe did you use for your soil? Did you use either oyster shell or dolomite? There is a pretty wide range of amounts of these "liming agents" that work, you might be just fine.


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## Vbz.420 (Apr 22, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> Which recipe did you use for your soil? Did you use either oyster shell or dolomite? There is a pretty wide range of amounts of these "liming agents" that work, you might be just fine.


I havent got a hold of any atm just a basic happy frog base / worm castings / added pearlite and thats about it until flower and organic 444


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## Rurumo (Apr 22, 2021)

Vbz.420 said:


> I havent got a hold of any atm just a basic happy frog base / worm castings / added pearlite and thats about it until flower and organic 444


You might be fine, it really comes down to your water. Do you know the PH of your tap water? If you're on city water, you can usually find a report online that has that info, plus things like alkalinity, total hardness, and calcium level, which are sometimes good to know too.


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## Vbz.420 (Apr 22, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> You might be fine, it really comes down to your water. Do you know the PH of your tap water? If you're on city water, you can usually find a report online that has that info, plus things like alkalinity, total hardness, and calcium level, which are sometimes good to know too.


They'll be outside too if that makes a difference. Will be watering with phd Ro water when rain isnt taking over. I have a thread under organics as well if u wanna check it out gonna be posting everything there im not trying to clog this thread with my noob questions. haha


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## Rurumo (Apr 22, 2021)

Vbz.420 said:


> They'll be outside too if that makes a difference. Will be watering with phd Ro water when rain isnt taking over. I have a thread under organics as well if u wanna check it out gonna be posting everything there im not trying to clog this thread with my noob questions. haha


You should be just fine then, if anything just keep an eye on your plants for any signs over time that the PH is getting too low. I think Happy Frog is buffered to begin with, and the EWC will buffer the PH too, so you should be good to go. Good luck with your grow!


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## Nwtexan (Apr 25, 2021)

Nwtexan said:


> Curious to hear what folks do with no till and SIPS as far as amending and preparing between cycles. I’m imagining at very least to clean up reservoir of roots and soil.
> What would you do as far as amending? I did the trench thing with a bit of dr earth flower girl. Put some malted barley on top, straw, then plastix


Any thoughts on amending between grows? I am having a bit of nitrogen toxicity in this run, my first with a SIP and no till. The Coots mix had a very high sodium level as well as high sulfur and then low micros. I'm using TM7 in a light top water application. 

I'm assuming with the nitrogen issue, especially as this is used around flip, that I probably won't need much nitrogen


----------



## Rurumo (Apr 26, 2021)

Nwtexan said:


> Any thoughts on amending between grows? I am having a bit of nitrogen toxicity in this run, my first with a SIP and no till. The Coots mix had a very high sodium level as well as high sulfur and then low micros. I'm using TM7 in a light top water application.
> 
> I'm assuming with the nitrogen issue, especially as this is used around flip, that I probably won't need much nitrogen


I hope I don't have the same high nitrogen issues. I'm using 1 cup of alfalfa per cu ft rather than the kelp-I know they aren't exactly equivalent, but I was hoping to get away from using kelp powder. I'm sure the high sodium is from kelp and crustacean meal, and the sulfur is probably the gypsum and neem meal-but I've seen several differing amounts of gypsum being used in Coots mix. The recipe from the No Till revisited thread has 1 cup oyster shell and 1 cup Gypsum per cu ft, that's what I went with. I'm sure I'll be high in sulfur too. I'm going to run a test, then post the results here too, just because I enjoy hearing about other ppls testing lol. I just went out to turn my soil and it's nice and hot right now-it turned out really nice, I do like this mix.


----------



## hillbill (Apr 26, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> I hope I don't have the same high nitrogen issues. I'm using 1 cup of alfalfa per cu ft rather than the kelp-I know they aren't exactly equivalent, but I was hoping to get away from using kelp powder. I'm sure the high sodium is from kelp and crustacean meal, and the sulfur is probably the gypsum and neem meal-but I've seen several differing amounts of gypsum being used in Coots mix. The recipe from the No Till revisited thread has 1 cup oyster shell and 1 cup Gypsum per cu ft, that's what I went with. I'm sure I'll be high in sulfur too. I'm going to run a test, then post the results here too, just because I enjoy hearing about other ppls testing lol. I just went out to turn my soil and it's nice and hot right now-it turned out really nice, I do like this mix.


Kelp Meal is made from well rinsed Kelp and should be fine for sodium


----------



## Rurumo (Apr 26, 2021)

hillbill said:


> Kelp Meal is made from well rinsed Kelp and should be fine for sodium


it should be, but there are dozens of comments about high sodium in cootz mix in different threads, so I'm just trying to figure out where it's coming from. Probably varies a lot between brands too, like anything.


----------



## m4s73r (Apr 28, 2021)

BeeAreBee said:


> My soil has been being worked almost ten years now.
> I joined the PFA (probiotic farmers alliance) on Facebook and never looked back. I started in earthboxes and diy versions. But now, all that + some new went into a new grassroots 4x4 soil bed.
> Im using chilleds x3 and a diy photoboost strip from green gene.
> Just bought myself some inhouse genetics to kick off the new bed.
> ...


Nice. This is my style of growing. I use cover crop rather then hay.


----------



## Northwood (Apr 28, 2021)

Rurumo said:


> it should be, but there are dozens of comments about high sodium in cootz mix in different threads, so I'm just trying to figure out where it's coming from. Probably varies a lot between brands too, like anything.


My local feed and seed store had kelp meal by the 50 pound bag so I splurged for it. It was expensive too, like $65 Canadian or something. I was pretty excited when I got home with it until I read the nutrient analysis on the label. It said 8.5% sodium chloride.  

Of course this was not sold as an agricultural amendment but instead as a nutrient supplement for livestock. Luckily they took it back the next day for a full refund because I hadn't yet opened the sack. It did make me wonder though if some companies buy this stuff and resell it as an amendment in smaller packaging for a big markup. Personally, if I bought kelp and it didn't explicitly list the amount of sodium in it, I wouldn't buy it. They're hiding something.


----------



## GrassBurner (Apr 28, 2021)

@Rurumo have you checked out Coots website? There's an article from last July with his recipe, im guessing it's the most recent. 
Coots Soil Article


----------



## Northwood (Apr 28, 2021)

GrassBurner said:


> @Rurumo have you checked out Coots website? There's an article from last July with his recipe, im guessing it's the most recent.
> Coots Soil Article


Hmm... looks weird to me. It's written by "Jim Bennett" and he tells us that only two mineral supplements are "paramagnets" and have anything to do with CEC. Then he talks about azomite, a montmorillonite clay. Montmorillonite clays like bentonite can have CEC's many times the the rock dusts he lists as "paramagnets". I stopped reading there.


----------



## DonBrennon (Apr 29, 2021)

Northwood said:


> Hmm... looks weird to me. It's written by "Jim Bennett" and he tells us that only two mineral supplements are "paramagnets" and have anything to do with CEC. Then he talks about azomite, a montmorillonite clay. Montmorillonite clays like bentonite can have CEC's many times the the rock dusts he lists as "paramagnets". I stopped reading there.


Jim Bennett is Clackamas Coots............


----------



## Geekloveart (Apr 29, 2021)

Hey, I've been looking through notes I've taken while looking through the thread, wondering if anyone knows why you shouldn't let Yarrow in a plant extract ferment? I know some plants can alter chemically when fermented but Yarrow seems to be pretty commonly used in fpjs on other organic gardening sites .
This is from 2013ish


----------



## Geekloveart (Apr 29, 2021)

BeeAreBee said:


> Btw, how do i, like , a post or comment? I dont seem to have the option...


You have to have enough likes on a post I think, I'm new too and can't like anything yet


----------



## hillbill (Apr 29, 2021)

RIU Grow Room Design Forum has whole active thread on “Best Deals”


----------



## loco41 (Apr 29, 2021)

Geekloveart said:


> Hey, I've been looking through notes I've taken while looking through the thread, wondering if anyone knows why you shouldn't let Yarrow in a plant extract ferment? I know some plants can alter chemically when fermented but Yarrow seems to be pretty commonly used in fpjs on other organic gardening sites .
> This is from 2013ish
> 
> View attachment 4890002


Never made an fpj so no experience with it, but I read that coots quote as not to let a yarrow tea ferment which is a whole different thing than making fpj out of yarrow. 

Just how I read the coots quote though, could be off here. I am looking forward to doing my own ferments sometime this year and would love to try some yarrow.


----------



## Geekloveart (Apr 29, 2021)

loco41 said:


> Just how I read the coots quote though, could be off here. I am looking forward to doing my own ferments sometime this year and would love to try some yarrow.


You could be right, i hadn't looked at it like that. 
I've made heaps of casuarina (she oak) fpjs using lactobacillus serum, to extract the silica but not much else yet, I'd like to try some of the fruit ferments


----------



## loco41 (Apr 29, 2021)

Geekloveart said:


> You could be right, i hadn't looked at it like that.
> I've made heaps of casuarina (she oak) fpjs using lactobacillus serum, to extract the silica but not much else yet, I'd like to try some of the fruit ferments


I'm getting ready to buy some comfrey root crowns pretty soon. Just need to get some 20 gallon pots and some soil mixed up for them first. I'm hoping to get a lot of biomass from them once they get established, but I've never grown them outdoors before so really not too sure how it will all go.

It seems like they aren't too finicky to grow, but I'll throw some pictures up when it all comes together.


----------



## OSBuds (Apr 30, 2021)

loco41 said:


> comfrey root crowns


Get the 1 to 4 year plants, crowns take longer.
*"Plant crowns or 1-to-4 year plants NOW and have fresh leaves in 2 to 3 weeks!"* 




__





Coe's Comfrey | The Legendary Herb of Life


Coe's Comfrey - We sell Bocking #4 comfrey root cuttings, crown cuttings, one-year, two-year, and 3-to-4-year plants! Buy Live Organic Fresh Planting Stock From Coe's Today!




www.coescomfrey.com


----------



## loco41 (May 2, 2021)

OSBuds said:


> Get the 1 to 4 year plants, crowns take longer.
> *"Plant crowns or 1-to-4 year plants NOW and have fresh leaves in 2 to 3 weeks!"*
> 
> 
> ...


Nice, I'll have to check this site out if strictlymedicinals.com cant supply some crowns when I go to order. Trying to keep the price down a little and strictly medicinals has 20 crowns for $60, but appreciate that link as I may need to try a "round 2" as I'm sure I'll have a few issues. Plus I'd like to see the crowns and start with what I will hopefully be splitting these plants into down the road. Would be really nice to acquire some well established plants, but hopefully by years end, I'll have things on the up and up. Eventually, I would like to dig some holes in the ground and just drop these plants into a garden bed, but out of sheer laziness the bed is in no shape to try these out right now. 

Wish I wouldn't have used all my homemade compost earlier this year in a different flower bed so I didn't have to source some bagged compost, but hoping a 50/50 mix of Coast of Maine Schoddy blend and some local omri listed yard waste compost will suffice. I'll throw in a couple scoops of fresh ewc in each pot, but really don't want to use up a lot of my ewc for this outdoor project right now.

Still not sure exactly how I plan to build this soil, but the three things I have in bulk are alfalfa/kelp/basalt so I was thinking something along these lines. Looking to mix up around 250 gallons and not quite fill each 20 gal pot up all the way (I have 5x 15 gallon pots already filled, so just need to mix enough for 15 more containers). A recipe like this would keep it relatively light and would only need to source one box of the down to earth vegan mix to kind of help fill in some gaps between the bulk amendments I have on hand. 

1/3 peat
1/3 aeration (still needing to sort this out as well, hoping a local brewery store can come through with some bulk rice hulls for me)
1/3 compost 

amendments added per cu ft.

1/2 cup Down to Earth vegan mix
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup alfalfa meal
1/2 cup oyster shell
1.5 cups basalt
1/2 cup st george black 

Sorry for rambling on, just excited about this little project since I will be taking my tent down after this run for a while. It will give me something to channel my inner growing needs until I set things back up again. Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.


----------



## Hollatchaboy (May 2, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Nice. This is my style of growing. I use cover crop rather then hay.
> 
> View attachment 4889522


Is that a Boulder in there?


----------



## m4s73r (May 3, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> Is that a Boulder in there?


Actually we kinda found out they're nice to be able to put your hand on too hold yourself up over the bed when reaching in. Just good ole rocks from the Missouri River.


----------



## Hollatchaboy (May 3, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> Actually we kinda found out they're nice to be able to put your hand on too hold yourself up over the bed when reaching in. Just good ole rocks from the Missouri River.


Damn... good idea. If I ever finally get around to getting a bed, I'm gonna do that!


----------



## hillbill (May 4, 2021)

Got 6 bags of Black Kow at Wally World.
Life is good.


----------



## OSBuds (May 11, 2021)

hillbill said:


> Got 6 bags of Black Kow at Wally World.
> Life is good.


Thanks for posting this! I was considering adding a bag of Black Kow to each of my 100 gal. pots outdoors. How long have you been using Black Kow & is 1 bag enough?


----------



## hillbill (May 11, 2021)

I don’t use anything near that size but I use up to 10% by volume in my indoor mixes, great stuff. I thought I was getting 25 pound bags but they were 1 cubic foot weight 42#. Might have had them load it if I knew.


----------



## OSBuds (May 11, 2021)

hillbill said:


> I don’t use anything near that size but I use up to 10% by volume in my indoor mixes, great stuff. I thought I was getting 25 pound bags but they were 1 cubic foot weight 42#. Might have had them load it if I knew.


Great, thanks for the info!


----------



## loco41 (May 13, 2021)

hillbill said:


> Got 6 bags of Black Kow at Wally World.
> Life is good.


Do you plant straight into the mix containing the black kow right away or do you let it "cook" a bit before planting? I just grabbed 8 bags and plan on mixing up a lot of fresh soil this weekend, but dont want to order my comfrey crowns before the soil is actually ready to go.


----------



## hillbill (May 14, 2021)

Black Kow is well composted and ready to go, top dress in and outdoors even.


----------



## Nwtexan (May 18, 2021)

Completed my first cycle with a no-till in a SIP. Had a few issues and sent sample to Logan Lab for testing. Anybody with more experience have an opinion on results? I was able to translate a few of the results, but still unsure if I should try another cycle this route or not. 

I am using their tools to come up with desired levels
Calcium-TECx400x.68 which I come up with 5018 desired- mine is 5306
Magnesium TECx240x.12. I come up with 532 desired-mine is 456
Potassium TECx780x.04. I come up with 576 desired-mine is 908

Sodium is a bit high still , and can't tell what Phosphorus should be/.


----------



## Stumay111 (Jul 13, 2021)

Good info, I'm doing something very similar here.

I have been lead to understand that the soil Ph isn't really monitored in no-til, the soil adjusts itself to what it needs.

How accurate is that statement?


----------



## Polyuro (Jul 13, 2021)

Stumay111 said:


> Good info, I'm doing something very similar here.
> 
> I have been lead to understand that the soil Ph isn't really monitored in no-til, the soil adjusts itself to what it needs.
> 
> How accurate is that statement?


Pretty much true for the average peat mix. My water is over 9 ph and doesn't create a problem.

As for monitoring pH in peat soil goes, u will find lots of opinions still even about how to do that....soil pen the runoff? Soil probe the top, middle, sides, bottom, side, side bottom, etc?? 

I hope this doesn't start a big yelling conversation. They never get anywhere.


----------



## bobrown14 (Jul 14, 2021)

Soil pH needs to be tested in a lab. Anything else specially those probes is a guess at best. 

That lab report is not very informative.

Suggest getting your soil tested at your local/state county extension service. They will break down everything on the report and give you recommendations etc. You local extension service should be almost FREE as well. If you're in a state that doesn't offer soil testing for some strange reason, there are states that will except out of state soil samples.

Soil labs are in every state. They were paid for by tax dollars and the AG bill. Not sure why Oregon and Washington State dont test soil anymore.


----------



## Stumay111 (Jul 14, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Soil pH needs to be tested in a lab. Anything else specially those probes is a guess at best.
> 
> That lab report is not very informative.
> 
> ...


Already done. Expect results today.


----------



## getogrow (Jul 14, 2021)

Polyuro said:


> Pretty much true for the average homemade organic peat mix. My water is over 9 ph and doesn't create a problem.
> 
> As for monitoring pH in peat soil goes, u will find lots of opinions still even about how to do that....soil pen the runoff? Soil probe the top, middle, sides, bottom, side, side bottom, etc??
> 
> I hope this doesn't start a big yelling conversation. They never get anywhere.


Peat moss holds a very low ph. As long as you have enough amendments then you will never need to worry.


----------



## getogrow (Jul 14, 2021)

Nwtexan said:


> Completed my first cycle with a no-till in a SIP. Had a few issues and sent sample to Logan Lab for testing. Anybody with more experience have an opinion on results? I was able to translate a few of the results, but still unsure if I should try another cycle this route or not.
> 
> I am using their tools to come up with desired levels
> Calcium-TECx400x.68 which I come up with 5018 desired- mine is 5306
> ...


wheres the nitrogen ?


----------



## DoobieDoobs (Jul 15, 2021)

Hey guys, hope this finds you all well.

I was thinking about starting at some point a no till, inside my 2x4 grow tent, and I was thinking about getting either a big enough smart pot or a container from home depot, which one do you guys think would be better for it?


----------



## Hollatchaboy (Jul 15, 2021)

DoobieDoobs said:


> Hey guys, hope this finds you all well.
> 
> I was thinking about starting at some point a no till, inside my 2x4 grow tent, and I was thinking about getting either a big enough smart pot or a container from home depot, which one do you guys think would be better for it?


Grassroots pot. Nothing less than 15 gallons for no till.


----------



## bobrown14 (Jul 15, 2021)

Yeah just get a box that is 2x4.. put 2 plants init.


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## Hollatchaboy (Jul 15, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Yeah just get a box that is 2x4.. put 2 plants init.


Even better.


----------



## Hollatchaboy (Jul 15, 2021)

DoobieDoobs said:


> Hey guys, hope this finds you all well.
> 
> I was thinking about starting at some point a no till, inside my 2x4 grow tent, and I was thinking about getting either a big enough smart pot or a container from home depot, which one do you guys think would be better for it?


Or there's these.....


----------



## DoobieDoobs (Jul 15, 2021)

I thought about a soil bed, but the tent is in my room xD, I don't know for some reason it seems better to me to have a couple 15 gal pots or 20 gal pots than a soil bed.... maybe its all in my head xD.


----------



## Hollatchaboy (Jul 15, 2021)

DoobieDoobs said:


> I thought about a soil bed, but the tent is in my room xD, I don't know for some reason it seems better to me to have a couple 15 gal pots or 20 gal pots than a soil bed.... maybe its all in my head xD.


If my growroom floor could handle the weight of a bed, I'd get one. With living soil, the higher the volume the better, and the less work you'll have to do thru the grow.


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Jul 15, 2021)

DoobieDoobs said:


> Hey guys, hope this finds you all well.
> 
> I was thinking about starting at some point a no till, inside my 2x4 grow tent, and I was thinking about getting either a big enough smart pot or a container from home depot, which one do you guys think would be better for it?


2 15 gal plastic pots will fit. That's what I use. There's room for a couple 3's and a couple 1/2 gal actually, lol. That way you can move them around if you need to. Mine are heavy as fuck though. I used some lava rock and that shit's heavy.


----------



## DoobieDoobs (Jul 15, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> If my growroom floor could handle the weight of a bed, I'd get one. With living soil, the higher the volume the better, and the less work you'll have to do thru the grow.


 yeah I would like to have a big bed, but I need something I can move around xD.



PadawanWarrior said:


> 2 15 gal plastic pots will fit. That's what I use. There's room for a couple 3's and a couple 1/2 gal actually, lol. That way you can move them around if you need to. Mine are heavy as fuck though. I used some lava rock and that shit's heavy.


Alright, I like that, I think I'll look for something like that or one of those 125 liter containers from home depot. Hey guys I have a question about no tilling, I more or less understand that I need to keep using mulch after mulch and those mulches will give nutrients to my grows, but I wonder if for the first few grows I need to use organic amendments as well? They say the first grows are the hardest since there is little life going on, I got quite a few of those, bone meal, fish meal, etc.


----------



## GreenBean 420 (Aug 12, 2021)

If anyone’s running no till earthboxes I’d love to see some pics. Anyone with cover crop or does everyone just cover them with the cover?super new to no till and organics


----------



## XtraGood (Aug 12, 2021)

SCJedi said:


> In aloe the saponins and polysaccharides act as great surfactants. Salicylic acid kick-starts the plants defense mechanisms. It can be used at low doses for foliar sprays.


Though some time has passed, this post caught my interest. I saw SM-90, labled as surfactant used as insecticide, got removed from shelves for labeling: having salicylic acid in there; it had surfactants as well. Now I want to make salicylic acid + aloe foliar spray. How low of a dose is a low dose of salicylic acid? Just need to keep ph reasonable...or?


----------



## Hollatchaboy (Aug 13, 2021)

GreenBean 420 said:


> If anyone’s running no till earthboxes I’d love to see some pics. Anyone with cover crop or does everyone just cover them with the cover?super new to no till and organics


Here's mine.....


----------



## hot_box_enthusiast (Aug 14, 2021)

I've read and re read TLO v2 by The Rev and am considering finally getting started. One issue that just doesnt seem properly (or for me) addressed is what are the needs for a "cooking space" indoors and whats the best way to achieve this. My understanding is not to trust compost that is outside as too much risk to introduce pest etc. 

I like the idea of recycling and re amending soil, but don't understand how to do this indoors. I want to fill a 60ft2 garden. There must be something obvious I am missing because I tried to google about this as well using terms around indoor composting etc. 

help or direction appreciated


----------



## hot_box_enthusiast (Aug 14, 2021)

I guess I am wondering how do you cook soils when trying to run indoors and can’t cook outside for part of the year?

it seems like you almost need two “sets” of soils… the one in use and the one that needs to cook for the next run // (since i’m assuming when the current run ends you have to re amend and re cook the soil which takes 30 days and if you want to start your next grow right away you therefore need a second batch of soil ready to go)

so it seems you would want two sets of soil the currently growing batch and the currently cooking batch which would/could also be improved with EWC. It seems doing this indoors allows control of temperature and limit bugs and control them better.

is there something stupid about this idea? I can’t find more about the whole cooking and recycling between runs. Thanks


----------



## Polyuro (Aug 14, 2021)

hot_box_enthusiast said:


> I guess I am wondering how do you cook soils when trying to run indoors and can’t cook outside for part of the year?


Best method is to cook soil ahead of time in the grow container. U can stack these on top of each other too. They don't need light just water and turning every once and awhile.


----------



## farangar (Aug 14, 2021)

hot_box_enthusiast said:


> I guess I am wondering how do you cook soils when trying to run indoors and can’t cook outside for part of the year?
> 
> it seems like you almost need two “sets” of soils… the one in use and the one that needs to cook for the next run // (since i’m assuming when the current run ends you have to re amend and re cook the soil which takes 30 days and if you want to start your next grow right away you therefore need a second batch of soil ready to go)
> 
> ...


you could use veganics which does not need to 'cook'.
look up kyle kushman he has a lot of info about it.


----------



## bobrown14 (Aug 16, 2021)

I use Coots mix let it sit a week with bokashi on top. Ready to go once the fruiting mycelium die back.


----------



## Jcue81 (Aug 18, 2021)

Wow, been reading this thread from the beginning with the intention of reading it all the way through before posting with questions, but after 80 pages I am so excited I want to get started getting my mix together.

The mix I am planning on was from 2013, so my main question is *has the recommended base mix evolved since then*? Can someone help poke holes or make suggestions on the below for me?


*33% -*
1 part peat
1 part coco coir

*33% -*
2 parts perlite (I already have this but could be convinced to use one part something else for aeration. 

*33% -*
1 part Coast of Maine Organic Lobster Compost
1 part Organic Mushroom Compost
(Or 1 part Organic EWC)
Planning on top dressing 2” with EWC

½ cup crab meal per CF
½ cup kelp meal per CF
½ cup ahimsa neem cake per CF
4 cups rock dust

How much DE to mix in for pest control?

my plan is to reuse 1 40 gallon fabric pot I have to grow three plants at a time in a 4x4 under a single LED. Thoughts on that?

thanks so much!


----------



## farangar (Aug 18, 2021)

Jcue81 said:


> Wow, been reading this thread from the beginning with the intention of reading it all the way through before posting with questions, but after 80 pages I am so excited I want to get started getting my mix together.
> 
> The mix I am planning on was from 2013, so my main question is *has the recommended base mix evolved since then*? Can someone help poke holes or make suggestions on the below for me?
> 
> ...


Swap the perlite for rice hulls or pumice.


----------



## Jcue81 (Aug 18, 2021)

Will do, thanks @farangar!


----------



## loco41 (Aug 18, 2021)

Jcue81 said:


> Will do, thanks @farangar!
> 
> Still trying track down the basalt dust. Concerned about heavy metals. Any tips there?


I bought mine from https://store.rockdustlocal.com/BrixBlend-Basalt-40-lbs_p_12.html


----------



## myke (Aug 18, 2021)

Not sure on the coco,I think most just use peat.


----------



## bobrown14 (Aug 20, 2021)

peat not coco
add Karanja Cake (wont need DE with Neem) along with the Neem Cake
rice hulls
VErmicompost instead of Mushroom soil but thats just me


----------



## hillbill (Aug 20, 2021)

Black Kow, composted cow manure, has been in my mixes whenever I have it along with EWC and Back To Nature Cotton Cotton Burr Compost. The only Cotton Burr Compost to ever use.


----------



## bobrown14 (Aug 22, 2021)

Cotton is one of the dirtiest plants grown. 


Heavy use of pesticides and herbicides on cotton and why I by organic cotton clothes. 

Here's a quick google find:

https://www.moderndane.com/blogs/the-modern-dane-blog/why-cotton-is-called-the-worlds-dirtiest-crop


----------



## hillbill (Aug 23, 2021)

Not if it’s organically grown.


----------



## bobrown14 (Aug 23, 2021)

Prolly hard to find I'm betting. 

Now wondering if traditional inputs to compost bin with pesticide residue wood be considered organic after the composting is finished?? 

We only use organic inputs from our own property/gardens/woods for out compost.


----------



## hillbill (Aug 23, 2021)

ROLS is what I do but am not a purest either, like some fly fishers.


----------



## GreenestBasterd (Aug 27, 2021)

Fallen seeds from last season, germinated with night temps as low as -2c/-4c but warmish days. 
The wonders of backyard breeding.


----------



## Jcue81 (Sep 3, 2021)

Hoping someone can give me a hand.
I’m mixing up my first ROLS Coot mix into a 50 gallon fabric rectangular bed. I have three seedlings which just popped the surface and I plan to veg for 3-4 weeks before transplanting into my no till bed. I bought a cover crop seed mix. Should I plant that right away or just water the mix a bit let it sit until I’m ready to transplant, then do plant the cover crop? 

What’s my best bet, everyone?


----------



## GreenestBasterd (Sep 3, 2021)

I’d sprout the cover crop now. If it gets out of hand trim it back.


----------



## Kind Sir (Sep 3, 2021)

Jcue81 said:


> Hoping someone can give me a hand.
> I’m mixing up my first ROLS Coot mix into a 50 gallon fabric rectangular bed. I have three seedlings which just popped the surface and I plan to veg for 3-4 weeks before transplanting into my no till bed. I bought a cover crop seed mix. Should I plant that right away or just water the mix a bit let it sit until I’m ready to transplant, then do plant the cover crop?
> 
> What’s my best bet, everyone?


I hear that any empty bed really does well with cover crops. Plant it


----------



## bobrown14 (Sep 4, 2021)

Cover crop then plant seedling. Whatever grows in the cover crop just pull out some cover make room for the seedling. Whatever you pull just lay in down on the soil. It will quickly decomp over several days and your seedlings will out compete the cover crop.


----------



## green_machine_two9er (Sep 4, 2021)

Jcue81 said:


> Hoping someone can give me a hand.
> I’m mixing up my first ROLS Coot mix into a 50 gallon fabric rectangular bed. I have three seedlings which just popped the surface and I plan to veg for 3-4 weeks before transplanting into my no till bed. I bought a cover crop seed mix. Should I plant that right away or just water the mix a bit let it sit until I’m ready to transplant, then do plant the cover crop?
> 
> What’s my best bet, everyone?


Hey. Can you not transplant sooner into bed?? Why not get seedlings in there and veg in their final home? Your gunna end up with giant plants, potentially to big for a 50 g container. Maybe do 2 instead of three?? Or cut clones off your favorite lady and go for a clones run to keep things more manageable

Either way your original question. Honestly either way will work. But 4 weeks of covers growing can be quite out of control. Maybe just do clover for now?


----------



## Jcue81 (Sep 5, 2021)

Thanks for the suggestions everyone! All three seedlings are up and I’m just about done getting my bed filled with my coots mix. 

First indoor run is for my dad! Acapulco Gold and Critical Cure from Barney’s Farm and a Panama Red x Bubba Kush from CSI Humboldt.


----------



## hillbill (Sep 6, 2021)

Miscalculation on mix I had led me to up pot into 2 week old mix. However, 18 of 30 gallons is recycled so things should be fine. Apparent female Sun Ra should be fine.


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## Bueno Time (Sep 10, 2021)

Anyone here using or ever tried a soil horizons setup in your big pots or beds? (Leighton Morrison style)

Im going to be trying a 30 gallon no till pot with O, A, and E horizons @ 4:2:1 depth ratio. The pot is 16" deep so I will use 2" layer of gravel in the bottom with coarse sand on top, 4" layer of wildcrafted sand silt clay mix with 20% soil mix mixed in, and 8-10" top layer being the soil mix (plus mulch, top dress, cover crop).

'Optimal' percentages of sand, silt, and clay in the "SSC" mix would be 62.5% sand, 16.25% silt, 21.25% clay which would be about 50% sand, 13%silt, 17% clay, and 20% organic material/soil after adding the 20% O layer material into the SSC mix for the A layer material.

Might sound kind of complex but its not. Its just 3 layers in your pot or bed. 1 part bottom layer sand and gravel, 2 parts middle layer of sand silt clay and soil, and top layer of 4 parts organic soil mix.


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## copkilller (Sep 11, 2021)

Bueno Time said:


> Anyone here using or ever tried a soil horizons setup in your big pots or beds? (Leighton Morrison style)
> 
> Im going to be trying a 30 gallon no till pot with O, A, and E horizons @ 4:2:1 depth ratio. The pot is 16" deep so I will use 2" layer of gravel in the bottom with coarse sand on top, 4" layer of wildcrafted sand silt clay mix with 20% soil mix mixed in, and 8-10" top layer being the soil mix (plus mulch, top dress, cover crop).
> 
> ...


Yes! awesome man, i did the E horizon only, in two outta four of my new 65gal living soil pots, leighton told me i could drive to oxnard area and pick up the sand silt and clay mix for the second horizon, but i couldn't make it there

so i have a layer of home depot gravel and decomposed granite on the bottom of two pots, and buildasoil oly mountain compost supersoil on top and cover crop growing, and clones rooting, ill post the results/comparison after the first run


----------



## farangar (Sep 11, 2021)

Bueno Time said:


> Anyone here using or ever tried a soil horizons setup in your big pots or beds? (Leighton Morrison style)
> 
> Im going to be trying a 30 gallon no till pot with O, A, and E horizons @ 4:2:1 depth ratio. The pot is 16" deep so I will use 2" layer of gravel in the bottom with coarse sand on top, 4" layer of wildcrafted sand silt clay mix with 20% soil mix mixed in, and 8-10" top layer being the soil mix (plus mulch, top dress, cover crop).
> 
> ...


let us know how it all works out, sounds interesting.


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## Bueno Time (Sep 11, 2021)

copkilller said:


> Yes! awesome man, i did the E horizon only, in two outta four of my new 65gal living soil pots, leighton told me i could drive to oxnard area and pick up the sand silt and clay mix for the second horizon, but i couldn't make it there
> 
> so i have a layer of home depot gravel and decomposed granite on the bottom of two pots, and buildasoil oly mountain compost supersoil on top and cover crop growing, and clones rooting, ill post the results/comparison after the first run


Nice, I was just going to do a gravel layer in the bottom of the pot for drainage and somehow stumbled across some youtube videos with Leighton on soil horizons and had to try it out now with his 3 layer system. Im going to be using fresh BAS 3.0 as the O layer and either BAS 3.0 or some recycled soil I have here into the SSC mix for the 20% of the A layer. Already have all the materials just need to assemble it, very soon here.



farangar said:


> let us know how it all works out, sounds interesting.


Will do.


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## cherrybobeddie (Sep 11, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Prolly hard to find I'm betting.
> 
> Now wondering if traditional inputs to compost bin with pesticide residue wood be considered organic after the composting is finished??
> 
> We only use organic inputs from our own property/gardens/woods for out compost.


I use chicken wire "bins". More aeration. Cheaper. Rain soaked, rotten balls of alfalfa hay.


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## copkilller (Sep 11, 2021)

Bueno Time said:


> Already have all the materials just need to assemble it, very soon here.


where did you find the sand silt and clay? i called a bunch of soil places here is los angeles nobody has it, no clay no silt


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## bobrown14 (Sep 12, 2021)

I add a 3 inch layer of stone (large size perlite) in the btm of my pots cover it with Coots mix = good. 

Why adding sand its got nothing to add to your soil?? It will reduce your overall CEC which to me is not useful so why add it in?


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## copkilller (Sep 12, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Why adding sand its got nothing to add to your soil?? It will reduce your overall CEC which to me is not useful so why add it in?


i also don't fully understand, something about the E horizon (bottom layer) being a filter, something about fines


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## bajasti (Sep 13, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> I use Coots mix let it sit a week with bokashi on top. Ready to go once the fruiting mycelium die back.


Could you explain why you do this? I'm curious as to whats happening and why we wait. I have a new mix in a 30 gal bed running coots style and also top dressed with bokashi. After 3 days I started seeing mycelium. How long should I wait from here to start transplanting my babes? Thanks for any help.

Baja


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## Hollatchaboy (Sep 13, 2021)

bajasti said:


> Could you explain why you do this? I'm curious as to whats happening and why we wait. I have a new mix in a 30 gal bed running coots style and also top dressed with bokashi. After 3 days I started seeing mycelium. How long should I wait from here to start transplanting my babes? Thanks for any help.
> 
> Baja


As soon as the mycelium dies out.


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## Hollatchaboy (Sep 13, 2021)

bajasti said:


> Could you explain why you do this? I'm curious as to whats happening and why we wait. I have a new mix in a 30 gal bed running coots style and also top dressed with bokashi. After 3 days I started seeing mycelium. How long should I wait from here to start transplanting my babes? Thanks for any help.
> 
> Baja


Cannabis prefers fungally dominant soil. By the time the mycelium is done blooming, your soil will have fungal dominance.


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## bajasti (Sep 13, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> Cannabis prefers fungally dominant soil. By the time the mycelium is done blooming, your soil will have fungal dominance.


How long usually till it dies out? Is there a chance that it just never dies out?

Baja


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## Hollatchaboy (Sep 13, 2021)

bajasti said:


> How long usually till it dies out? Is there a chance that it just never dies out?
> 
> Baja


It depends, on moisture level, light, and food. Ime it lasts about a week or so.


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## bobrown14 (Sep 14, 2021)

Mine usually live about a week covered in a bin or 4. You will seen when its died back. It gets a crusty coating on top that looks more like soil than the white hairy stuff.


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## Hollatchaboy (Sep 14, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Mine usually live about a week covered in a bin or 4. You will seen when its died back. It gets a crusty coating on top that looks more like soil than the white hairy stuff.


Lol yea, and it gets crusty for sure. Looks like dry soil.


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## hillbill (Sep 14, 2021)

I go outside and push aside a dead tree or branch and easily get a lot. I put fungus coated bark and twigs on top of my mix., close the lid back and a very few days, it’s a wonderland.
I live on the Northwest side of a ridge with lots of big hardwoods so lots of shade. Fungus loves it.


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## bajasti (Sep 14, 2021)

Heres what I found on HSO website while doing some research. Figured it'll do good posted here. 

The main strategy behind amending with *Bokashi* is the use of microbiology to digest organic amendments into plant-usable forms. Bokashi is traditionally a grain fermented with a specific combo of microbes, *EM-1* (effective micro-organism). The grain is mixed with unsulfured black-strap *molasses* as a simple food source for the microbes to proliferate. The molasses and EM-1 are mixed together in water and then mixed with the grain until even moisture is achieved. The mixed grain is then closed off from oxygen by storing it in an airtight container or sealed trash bag and left to ferment at room temperature. After two weeks the grain should be properly fermented and should have a strong, but sweet odor. Freshly fermented bokashi tends to remain damp and has a short shelf life. Spreading the Bokashi out in a thin even layer to dry is an effective way to extend its storage capability. The grain is now Bokashi and can be used as a composter or a bio-amendment for organic nutrition. As a composter, Bokashi is able to break down organic material in an anaerobic (without oxygen) process. This allows for easy indoor composting because it takes place in an airtight container, closing in and breaking down odor while closing out unwanted insects and animals. The bokashi itself has its own unique smell reminiscent of beer and wine fermentation because similar microbes are present, most notably yeast and lactic acid bacteria. Composting with bokashi takes approximately two weeks at room temperature for kitchen wastes to be broken down into pickled mush. This fermented compost will break down quickly when added to the soil, attracting worms, fungi, bacteria, protozoa and other beneficial organisms. The result is turning your kitchen waste into an extremely plant-available source of nutrition.

*Using Bokashi to bio-activate organic amendments*

Once Bokashi has been placed in an environment with water and a food source, it springs to life eating and mineralizing amendments to bio-available forms. Visually, you can see the growth of bacterial filaments that resemble fungal mycelia. These long white hairs or grey fuzz belong to the Actinobacteria group made up mostly of the Streptomyces genus. These are very common microbes in healthy compost and are associated with giving soil its earthy odor. Beyond what you can see with your eyes, many microbes are at work, such as lactic acid bacteria (LAB). LAB's are one of our most important and prolific composters and are commonly used in breaking down smells in waste treatment. These microbes will eat the organic amendments we add upon planting and their wastes will become available to the plant. This is similar to the strategy of using compost tea, which uses beneficial microbes to help in plant health and nutrition. By applying bokashi with amendments upon planting you accelerate their mineralization and availability. After digging each hole before planting you simply add your favorite amendments like bone meal, blood meal, kelp, trace minerals, guanos, fish or whatever works best for your needs. Then by scattering a handful of bokashi in each hole you employ beneficial microbes to go to work, making your organic amendments plant available. After amending, simply plant and water and you will be amazed at the ease of achieving health and vigor from your plants. Top dressing with a bokashi mix can result in a whitish-gray mold on the surface of the soil. This is nothing to be alarmed about, it just means the actinobacteria and other beneficials are doing their job. You can also use bokashi compost instead of buying amendments. This means all your plant nutrition needs can be achieved from your wastes. All you do is take your kitchen wastes (including meat and dairy) and place them in an airtight bucket sprinkling bokashi on each additional layer. The smaller the pieces of waste, the faster the bokashi can process it. Keeping the bucket at room temp the process should take about two weeks. Then you simply dig holes in your garden, add the fermented bokashi compost then cover with soil and plant. The plant will have a powerful source of slow release nutrition. The use of this kind of organic nutrition has shown to have some power to repel pests from and attract beneficials to plants. I have noticed that plants grown this way are far less attractive to pests and, also, are far more resistant. The bokashi attracts worms and other beneficials in the ground who feed on the fermented bokashi compost as it breaks down in the soil. As they eat they leave behind their plant nutritious castings. Bokashi is also a great way to introduce safe beneficial biology to the indoor garden environment. Gardening with bokashi can accelerate the potential of beneficial biology in your soil unlocking organic nutrition in a truly plant available form. Writen By BioVortex

Baja


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## bajasti (Sep 14, 2021)

hillbill said:


> I go outside and push aside a dead tree or branch and easily get a lot. I put fungus coated bark and twigs on top of my mix., close the lid back and a very few days, it’s a wonderland.
> I live on the Northwest side of a ridge with lots of big hardwoods so lots of shade. Fungus loves it.


I have composted bark and wood mulch from outside. Blooming with of fungal colonies. I used to be scared to bring in bugs and pests indoors. That was before I learn that pest/bugs don't attack healthy plants. Especially if you have a healthy biodiversity of life in your soil and companion crops helping.

Baja


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## Kind Sir (Sep 21, 2021)

What’s your guys thoughts on taking clones from plants that just started flowering? There’s a couple low branches I want to take off, and was thinking about using them for clones. Plants been flowering about 7 days


----------



## myke (Sep 21, 2021)

Kind Sir said:


> What’s your guys thoughts on taking clones from plants that just started flowering? There’s a couple low branches I want to take off, and was thinking about using them for clones. Plants been flowering about 7 days


I use to do that,some say it preserves genetics?Bro science I think.No problem snip away and give them 24hr light.


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## Rozgreenburn (Sep 21, 2021)

I have found that it will probably take a few days longer than normal. Snip away!!!


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## Kind Sir (Sep 21, 2021)

So my plants have been in the 4x4 bed for like two weeks, I just flipped to flower snd it seems the bottom leaves are yellowing some. 

I want to topdress to be ahead of the game. I have like kelp/neem/malted barley flower/compost along with fish meal but not sure I should use that. 

How much of what should I use for topdress?


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## myke (Sep 21, 2021)

Kind Sir said:


> So my plants have been in the 4x4 bed for like two weeks, I just flipped to flower snd it seems the bottom leaves are yellowing some.
> 
> I want to topdress to be ahead of the game. I have like kelp/neem/malted barley flower/compost along with fish meal but not sure I should use that.
> 
> How much of what should I use for topdress?


Yikes. Can’t be N deficiency already? I’m not the one who should answer but assuming your soil is loaded with food since it’s new. It’s probably something else?


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## Kind Sir (Sep 21, 2021)

myke said:


> Yikes. Can’t be N deficiency already? I’m not the one who should answer but assuming your soil is loaded with food since it’s new. It’s probably something else?


You’d barely be able to tell anything is going on lower down, they look fine overall


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## bobrown14 (Sep 21, 2021)

Kind Sir said:


> What’s your guys thoughts on taking clones from plants that just started flowering? There’s a couple low branches I want to take off, and was thinking about using them for clones. Plants been flowering about 7 days


I always take cuts after flip to flower. I waif a few days then clean up the lowers and take cuts.
When the plant flips she sends growth hormones to the tips of the branches and that's good for cloning. 
Best time to do it.


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## Kind Sir (Sep 21, 2021)

Suggestions for the topdress though? I went on the lighter side using amendments, but not by much. Even if the plants are healthy, shouldn’t I topdress now to be ahead of it? 

Really unsure of the amounts


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## bobrown14 (Sep 22, 2021)

Hard to go wrong with compost/ewc/kelp meal.


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## bajasti (Oct 1, 2021)

Kind Sir said:


> What’s your guys thoughts on taking clones from plants that just started flowering? There’s a couple low branches I want to take off, and was thinking about using them for clones. Plants been flowering about 7 days


This is where "monster" cropping comes from


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## bassman5420 (Oct 14, 2021)

Cant wait to get my living soil beds all finished. Here is one that is about ready for plants. 

Mulched it with some straw from a mushroom log. Here is the log before I cut and are some last night heh.


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## bobrown14 (Oct 15, 2021)

Oyster shrooms are mighty tasty. When I got a log it grew blue oysters. Oh yummmmy win win. 

Good job on your plant bed.


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## Kind Sir (Oct 15, 2021)

I’m in like week 4 of flower. I have some low branches I want to chop off.

1. Any tips on how to, or if it’s even worth cloning the low branches this late in flower? 

2. There are little shit here and there I think need to go, is it ok if I cut off like 10 doinkers (not full
branches) off each plant this late in flower? Some of the doinkers have grown back a few times, not sure why!


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## m4s73r (Oct 17, 2021)

Kind Sir said:


> I’m in like week 4 of flower. I have some low branches I want to chop off.
> 
> 1. Any tips on how to, or if it’s even worth cloning the low branches this late in flower?
> 
> ...


1. You can clone them if you want. make sure you keep them in soil at 70% rh.
2. yes you can. Once you do this trim you should need to do another. Try not to take more than 25% of the plant off at a time.


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## Kind Sir (Oct 17, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> 1. You can clone them if you want. make sure you keep them in soil at 70% rh.
> 2. yes you can. Once you do this trim you should need to do another. Try not to take more than 25% of the plant off at a time.


There’s no issue being this far into flower? Some people made me nervous doing it, saying it could issues with the plant… Ive read both sides though. 

I just know for a fact there are some tiny bud sites that NEED to go


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## m4s73r (Oct 17, 2021)

Kind Sir said:


> There’s no issue being this far into flower? Some people made me nervous doing it, saying it could issues with the plant… Ive read both sides though.
> 
> I just know for a fact there are some tiny bud sites that NEED to go


I have gone through and schwazzed plants at 4 weeks into flower on long flowering strains. Now, I will not guarantee that taking more than 25% of the plant mass that it wont effect it. But trimming out little branches shouldn't hurt it.


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## Kind Sir (Oct 17, 2021)

m4s73r said:


> I have gone through and schwazzed plants at 4 weeks into flower on long flowering strains. Now, I will not guarantee that taking more than 25% of the plant mass that it wont effect it. But trimming out little branches shouldn't hurt it.


So yea taking like 10 doinker bud sites off shouldn’t cause any issues. They just look great and it’s my first 4x4 bed haha… Dont want popcorn nonsense though. 

One thing someone told me… say you have a mow branch that’s quit big but. it getting any light. It can think it’s dying and throw out bananas. Thoughts on that?


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## m4s73r (Oct 17, 2021)

Kind Sir said:


> So yea taking like 10 doinker bud sites off shouldn’t cause any issues. They just look great and it’s my first 4x4 bed haha… Dont want popcorn nonsense though.
> 
> One thing someone told me… say you have a mow branch that’s quit big but. it getting any light. It can think it’s dying and throw out bananas. Thoughts on that?


Well thats the first I have ever heard of that. I'm going to say that something like that could cause it to hermie. But that's if were talking like the main stem on a atypical plant late into flower. Or if the genetics are shit. Some plants like topping and pruning more than others. For sativas, ill top t times for 4 main tops and thats it. wont touch em again. Any time i do it seems to slow them down.


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## bassman5420 (Nov 3, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> Oyster shrooms are mighty tasty. When I got a log it grew blue oysters. Oh yummmmy win win.
> 
> Good job on your plant bed.


I am not a fan of mushrooms, but I cooked those up for my wife and I tried some. DAMN were they good! Just some oil, butter and fresh garlic. I was blown away and wanted more lol!


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## bobrown14 (Nov 3, 2021)

Yup yup found some other blue mushrooms today. Not ready to try these yet. Milk indigo or something


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## Florere (Nov 3, 2021)

How long you guys keep a bed?

I had one for 2 years and when i removed the soil it was all very dense and almost 1/4 was worm poo.

Yields where getting shittier each time.


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## bobrown14 (Nov 5, 2021)

I amend with Kelp meal, compost and malted barley ground fine. Yields get better each round for like 5-6 years then I make a new mix and do 50/50 with the old and back to work the soil goes.


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## Florere (Nov 6, 2021)

That’s quite some time. I’m thinking of doing it again but then without the worms.
You really mix the 50/50 or just take half off and fill with new?


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## bobrown14 (Nov 6, 2021)

I just mixed up a new batch and ran a flower run. Then I mixed some extra with my old used soil 50/50 and ran another run. The yields were better with the 50/50 mix. Not a scientific study by no means. I wanted to see if I should compost my old soil or could I still use it in containers. 

I use Coots mix - he designed his soil mix to be used continuously for +6 years growing specialty Japanese maple trees horticulturaly grown for a niche market. We actually have 2 of those trees some architect used as plantings around our home. Any way so it took 6 years for that tree to mature enough to be used as an ornamental in landscape. So his soil had to last at least 6 years in a large bag container (600ish gal). 

Thats pretty much what I'm getting from the mix - 6 years but I'm growing very intensely = several flower runs per year same soil. I cant say how hard the maple trees are growing compared to several cannabis flowerings annually in the same soil. It works for me.


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## GreenestBasterd (Dec 25, 2021)

Merry Christmas comrades!!!


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## NugHeuser (Dec 25, 2021)

So I've been running super soil for maybe 4 or 5 years or now. I'm coming off of a bit of a small break from growing. Mixed up a new batch of soil and the myco growth has been unreal compared to what I normally get. 
Normally I'll have several spots/pockets of fuzz growth, seems to grow for maybe a week then stop growth/die and break down. My best runs before this covered maybe 25% to 33% of my soil surface. But this tote has 100% myco growth coverage and in some spots pushing 2 inches thick.
So I'm just wondering because a lot of you will have had more rols experience than me, I'm wondering if this type of myco growth/colonization is pretty average and I've been underperforming/doing something wrong these past years or did I happen to mix this batch up just right and outdone typical standards??
I for sure can't wait to use it!
These pictures are 7 days cooking.


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## bobrown14 (Dec 25, 2021)

whats in your mix?


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## NugHeuser (Dec 25, 2021)

bobrown14 said:


> whats in your mix?


Peat moss, vermiculite, perlite, EWC, used soil(mostly used soil, don't add much of the previous to each batch), kelp meal, alfalfa meal, bat guano, blood meal, bone meal, neem seed meal, insect frass, crab shell meal, epsom salt, azomite, gypsum and watered down with recharge beneficials. I believe my total amount of amendment is targeted at 4 cups per cubic foot but I think I went closer to atleast 5 cups per this time around


----------



## myke (Dec 25, 2021)

NugHeuser said:


> Peat moss, vermiculite, perlite, EWC, used soil(mostly used soil, don't add much of the previous to each batch), kelp meal, alfalfa meal, bat guano, blood meal, bone meal, neem seed meal, insect frass, crab shell meal, epsom salt, azomite, gypsum and watered down with recharge beneficials. I believe my total amount of amendment is targeted at 4 cups per cubic foot but I think I went closer to atleast 5 cups per this time around


5 cups wow. Gonna be hot no?


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## NugHeuser (Dec 25, 2021)

myke said:


> 5 cups wow. Gonna be hot no?


I'd have to check my notes but I believe 4 is what I normally do and every time my nutes only last about 4 weeks then I start to yellow, without any burn leading up. So I just poured each amendment a little heavy this time. Figured what the hell why not, I've yet to burn them at 4 cups and always run out well before the end


----------



## myke (Dec 26, 2021)

NugHeuser said:


> I'd have to check my notes but I believe 4 is what I normally do and every time my nutes only last about 4 weeks then I start to yellow, without any burn leading up. So I just poured each amendment a little heavy this time. Figured what the hell why not, I've yet to burn them at 4 cups and always run out well before the end


Cool. I’ve always read that 3 was the limit. Nothing wrong with experimenting.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 31, 2021)

Found these front of Home Depot, galvanized steel bins or whatever you call these ( 70 gallons ), question is, good for a grow or opt for the fabric raised garden instead?


----------



## Hollatchaboy (Dec 31, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Found these front of Home Depot, galvanized steel bins or whatever you call these ( 70 gallons ), question is, good for a grow or opt for the fabric raised garden instead?
> View attachment 5057756View attachment 5057757


If it were me, I'd get the grassroots fabric one.


----------



## [email protected] (Dec 31, 2021)

Hollatchaboy said:


> If it were me, I'd get the grassroots fabric one.


This .. thanks brother.


----------



## myke (Dec 31, 2021)

Or the 100g hdx tote.


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## Hollatchaboy (Dec 31, 2021)

myke said:


> Or the 100g hdx tote.


Or that.


----------



## PadawanWarrior (Dec 31, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Found these front of Home Depot, galvanized steel bins or whatever you call these ( 70 gallons ), question is, good for a grow or opt for the fabric raised garden instead?
> View attachment 5057756View attachment 5057757


I'd get big fabric pots. Cheaper and the drainage is already there. Those would be cool for mixing soil, or a compost pile though.

BAS sent me a 65 gal fabric once that I didn't order. I think they were trying to send me a message.


----------



## GreenestBasterd (Dec 31, 2021)

[email protected] said:


> Found these front of Home Depot, galvanized steel bins or whatever you call these ( 70 gallons ), question is, good for a grow or opt for the fabric raised garden instead?
> View attachment 5057756View attachment 5057757


Metal gets hot come summer. I’d go fabric or build a raised bed if it were me.


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Jan 1, 2022)

PadawanWarrior said:


> I'd get big fabric pots. Cheaper and the drainage is already there. Those would be cool for mixing soil, or a compost pile though.
> 
> BAS sent me a 65 gal fabric once that I didn't order. I think they were trying to send me a message.
> 
> View attachment 5057794


I really want to just pull the trigger and start growing in the big ass soil beds build a soil has.


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## Northwood (Jan 11, 2022)

If you have room and built up fertile soil, nothing will beat just planting them in the ground. If you have to use pots as a last resort, then choose the option based on your local climate. I suggest impervious to evaporation pots that have lots of drainage holes in the bottom for most average north American climates. I tend to avoid cloth pots because I hate watering twice a day. Lol


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## bobrown14 (Jan 12, 2022)

I have several 50gal cement containers that were part of our "landscaping" design when the house was built in the late 70s. I've found them to be pretty good for maintenance/watering probably not practical for anyone just putting that out there. 

I keep a mulch layer around the plants and I rarely need to water unless drought conditions. 

I move them around with a tractor. They are heavy af.


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## Kind Sir (Jan 21, 2022)

I’m surprised this thread isn’t more popular. What thread is the most popular for organic users? Like grasscitys is the notill revisited thread.

I was going to ask what your guys favorite way to clone is? I’m confident using a 4x4 bed mixing my own soil and everything in betnween… I’m just new to cloning and want to keep some killer genetics


----------



## [email protected] (Jan 21, 2022)

Kind Sir said:


> I’m surprised this thread isn’t more popular. What thread is the most popular for organic users? Like grasscitys is the notill revisited thread.
> 
> I was going to ask what your guys favorite way to clone is? I’m confident using a 4x4 bed mixing my own soil and everything in betnween… I’m just new to cloning and want to keep some killer genetics


Maybe ask in a thread that's all about cloning?


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## Kind Sir (Jan 22, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> Maybe ask in a thread that's all about cloning?


I just thought I remembered years ago this thread being like the main one where a bunch of regulars congregated. I like it that way, people bouncing info back and forth. 

Since you saw my question, any suggestions


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## [email protected] (Jan 22, 2022)

Kind Sir said:


> I just thought I remembered years ago this thread being like the main one where a bunch of regulars congregated. I like it that way, people bouncing info back and forth.
> 
> Since you saw my question, any suggestions


I'm new to cloning, and been successful so far cutting the bottom of a plastic water bottle and dropping the clone in it after I've stuffed it in a Rapid Rooter Plug, drop a little mycorrihizae powder in for good measure and sit the whole thing on a heating pad. Keep it in low light, don't want it growing fast at this stage, I keep it by a window (restroom) where there's not that much direct sunlight and then the lights stay on till 10 at night. Maybe I've just been lucky, but this has been working out so far.


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## Fluffy Butt (Jan 22, 2022)

Kind Sir said:


> I was going to ask what your guys favorite way to clone is? I’m confident using a 4x4 bed mixing my own soil and everything in betnween… I’m just new to cloning and want to keep some killer genetics


I've been having good results with root riot cubes, clonex, and a humidity dome. Don't fix what ain't broken I guess. 

If you want to be super neglectful, you can leave a few rooters sitting in a cell tray with a bit of perlite in the bottom. Place the cells in a shallow tray of water so the perlite can wick it up, and you shouldn't have to touch the clones until they are rooted. With this method I managed to root a 2 foot clone without a dome, though the success rate seemed to be a bit lower than the rooters in the dome.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 22, 2022)

With cloning its clean clean clean - tools hands everything and keep things clean.
Dip cutting tools in alcohol every cut.

I use a cloning machine with water and a air pump. Clean that too with bleach between runs.

Dip cut tip in aloe gel from a live cutting of aloe.

dont cut leaf tips off that's bro stuff.


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Jan 22, 2022)

bobrown14 said:


> With cloning its clean clean clean - tools hands everything and keep things clean.
> Dip cutting tools in alcohol every cut.
> 
> I use a cloning machine with water and a air pump. Clean that too with bleach between runs.
> ...


I really need to get into a regimen so I can keep my really good flowering plants around as moms.


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## [email protected] (Jan 22, 2022)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> I really need to get into a regimen so I can keep my really good flowering plants around as moms.


With a short life span ... how does one do that? How long do the ladies live after a Harvest?


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Jan 22, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> With a short life span ... how does one do that? How long do the ladies live after a Harvest?


I meant take clones before flowering and then know which ones are great to keep long term.


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## [email protected] (Jan 22, 2022)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> I meant take clones before flowering and then know which ones are great to keep long term.


Hard to say, I'll be happy if I can get my first clone to a harvest right now.


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## green_machine_two9er (Jan 22, 2022)

[email protected] said:


> With a short life span ... how does one do that? How long do the ladies live after a Harvest?


Four weeks since harvest reveg attempt 1. Success. What an amazing plant


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## bobrown14 (Jan 26, 2022)

Always take cuts. Can toss the un-worthy after.... I take keep the keeper cuts as moms and take cuts from them and keep the mother in veg for long long time. Then always take extra cuts in case the mom decides she's had enough bs. 

Sometimes when that happens I'll give her what she wants and put her in flower. Ugly duckling turns into pretty woman.


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## DoobieDoobs (Feb 1, 2022)

Hey guys, just wondering, what kind of organic material do you top dress with your no tills? I did a couple ROLS cycles, but now I got 2 15 gallon pots and I want to keep using them as a no till kinda deal. So I was wondering what kind of organic inputs should I be top dressing with my pots, I have been using leaves, and branches, e.g. what was left of my previous grow, but I want to know what else I can use. Thanks.


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## bobrown14 (Feb 2, 2022)

leaf mold from the woods, ewc, kelp meal mixed with ewc, plant an oats cover crop while pots are empty to keep the microbes going. compost - ewc - vermi-compost. All or any of these and there are many more. 

I usually just grow a cover crop of something.... wait until I plant a new plant in the pot and add amenments to the hole at up-can then into flower.


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## DoobieDoobs (Feb 7, 2022)

bobrown14 said:


> leaf mold from the woods, ewc, kelp meal mixed with ewc, plant an oats cover crop while pots are empty to keep the microbes going. compost - ewc - vermi-compost. All or any of these and there are many more.
> 
> I usually just grow a cover crop of something.... wait until I plant a new plant in the pot and add amenments to the hole at up-can then into flower.


thank you, ill try to get some of it, good thing is I will get more use out of my worm farm.


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## Nugbender (May 14, 2022)

I have a couple 5 gal coco based soil from a previous organic run, its been awhile maybe and the soil is all dried out, what would be the necessary steps I would need to take to bring these back to life?

I have some BAS craft blend, grokashi I could amend this with and some cover crop seeds, just sprouted some beans so it would be about a few weeks at least until I transplant


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## blueberrymilkshake (May 14, 2022)

Rols Royce would be such a good username


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## GreenestBasterd (May 29, 2022)

The blumats create little worm hotspots wherever the drippers are placed. It great!

Once harvest is complete I leave the blumats on and plant a mixed cover crop with a cheap led.
Once it’s 3-4 weeks old, I’ll switch the light off and let the worms, Woodlice and the rest get to work. 
The lack of light brings the worms up to the top of the containers.
When you go in with a torch, the surface of the containers shimmers and moves and you can see recycling before your eyes!

One thing I noticed and couldn’t believe until I saw it was, the Woodlice would climb up the small plants and eat the leaf edges (took a while to work out).
They would only do this at lights off, and I’m certain it was due to the lack of food as the cover crop was all but gone.

This soil has only got better and better over the years and remained problem free.


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## GreenestBasterd (May 29, 2022)

Nugbender said:


> I have a couple 5 gal coco based soil from a previous organic run, its been awhile maybe and the soil is all dried out, what would be the necessary steps I would need to take to bring these back to life?
> 
> I have some BAS craft blend, grokashi I could amend this with and some cover crop seeds, just sprouted some beans so it would be about a few weeks at least until I transplant


Water well, top dress a small amount of kelp, barley and gypsum. Cover that with worm castings and mulch with straw/hay/alfalfa anything, but mulch. Add cover crop if you have it.
Leave somewhere moderately warm and keep moist, but not soaking, for a few weeks.
It should be better than before.


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## TexasTwister (Aug 24, 2022)

new to the board. Just wanted to add that I finished this thread a few weeks ago. I learned so much. soo many myths dispelled. 

Im sure as new locations go legal you get these posts a lot. was working in salts and now about to cook my first all organic water only. such a rabbit hole to go down. so much catching up to do. but just wanted to kickdown and say thanks to everyone.


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## radicaldank42 (Aug 25, 2022)

What soil mixture do you guys use. Like I mix bail of hp plus and sunshine mix and add few bags of perlite.


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## Hipposcottamus1 (Aug 28, 2022)

I am in my 3rd cycle outdoors in 30 gal pots and have ran into a problem. I have been top dressing with the standard ammendments along with EWC and compost.
My problem is now my pots are mounded which makes watering a little tricky, I have been just watering in really slowly to avoid overflow. 
How would you go about the next cycle going forward with a no till mindset? Scrape off 2-6 inches and start over?


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## bobrown14 (Aug 29, 2022)

I poke a few holes with my finger the water will run into the holes instead of out of the container. I have the same exact issue too much top dress. A few holes works fine and water closer to the stalk,


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## PadawanWarrior (Aug 29, 2022)

bobrown14 said:


> I poke a few holes with my finger the water will run into the holes instead of out of the container. I have the same exact issue too much top dress. A few holes works fine and water closer to the stalk,


Maybe use a wetting agent.


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## BeansfromtheGods (Oct 28, 2022)

How much eposm salt does one add to a soil drench? Currently in week 5 and seeing signs of yellowing and want to touch it up with some magnesium. Just topped off with oyster shell for the calcium


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## radicaldank42 (Oct 28, 2022)

BeansfromtheGods said:


> How much eposm salt does one add to a soil drench? Currently in week 5 and seeing signs of yellowing and want to touch it up with some magnesium. Just topped off with oyster shell for the calcium


so you gotta be careful with epsoms salts because it is a straight up salt and salts is what plants poo and cause problems excessive salts. but i beleive its a 1/2 teaspoon


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## bobrown14 (Oct 29, 2022)

BeansfromtheGods said:


> How much eposm salt does one add to a soil drench? Currently in week 5 and seeing signs of yellowing and want to touch it up with some magnesium. Just topped off with oyster shell for the calcium


Look up "senescence" plants dont stay green all the way to flower. This is genetics and cultivar specific.

IF this is your first run with that cultivar I would suggest leaving it be and adjust your amendments for the next run.

5 weeks = 35 days, I have plants that start loosing leaves at 30 days which = senescence. This is a common thing plants do. All ya gotta do take a look outside. Some trees color earlier some wait till later in the fall. The trees that loose leaves are not having deficits. Plants loose leaves for a lot of reasons.

Adding Mg to a living soil is not usually a recommendation unless your soil test indicates Mg deficit.

IF you dont have a soil test the best way to add Mg is to top dress vermi-compost or another compost source like Coast of Main lobster compost + kelp meal. This will have more than enough Mg along every other micro and macro nutrient the plant needs so all your bases covered without adding salts that can build up over time causing a tail chasing situation.

Cannabis plants are Ca hogs. Gotta be REAL careful adding in CaCo3 (oyster shell flour) to a container with living plants. CaCo3 can drastically change soil pH in a container. Farmers add that in the early spring to fallow fields for this reason. 

Your better choice for adding in Ca is to add gypsum - there's your sulfur and your calcium without messing with soil pH. The Ca will be "somewhat" soluble from the Gypsum.


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## BeansfromtheGods (Oct 30, 2022)

bobrown14 said:


> Look up "senescence" plants dont stay green all the way to flower. This is genetics and cultivar specific.
> 
> IF this is your first run with that cultivar I would suggest leaving it be and adjust your amendments for the next run.
> 
> ...


Appreciate your share, I haven't used gypsum much as an additive. I already added a little oyster shell flour and 1watering with a little epsom in there. Just made a SST with barley and kelp me ill just water her out for the next week and ease up on the feeding to run out the excess.

When is the best time to take soil tests? After a fun finishes?


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## bobrown14 (Oct 30, 2022)

soil test after mix - then yearly.

Feed the soil micro-organisms.


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## BeansfromtheGods (Oct 31, 2022)

radicaldank42 said:


> What soil mixture do you guys use. Like I mix bail of hp plus and sunshine mix and add few bags of perlite.



Living soil mix from buildasoil I bought years ago


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## BeansfromtheGods (Oct 31, 2022)

GreenestBasterd said:


> The blumats create little worm hotspots wherever the drippers are placed. It great!
> 
> Once harvest is complete I leave the blumats on and plant a mixed cover crop with a cheap led.
> Once it’s 3-4 weeks old, I’ll switch the light off and let the worms, Woodlice and the rest get to work.
> ...


How high up do you have your reservoir at?


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## GreenestBasterd (Nov 12, 2022)

BeansfromtheGods said:


> How high up do you have your reservoir at?


Sorry for the late reply mate.
I have it up on 4 milk crates, it’s the other side of the wall to the plants and plumbed through with some tubing, 6mm I believe, and a tap each side of the wall.
I doubt it needs to be as high as that.


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## GreenestBasterd (Nov 12, 2022)

Doja-4 said:


>


Jesus!
You could park a couple planes in that hanger!!!


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## BeansfromtheGods (Nov 17, 2022)

Whats your favorite way to finish a harvest off when you can see the trichomes milk up, are you just watering her out until chop day? Was thinking about light doses of kelp and barley and have about a week to harvest maybe a little less. Its soil that is being reused on its 2nd run with an addition of dry amendments, SST, EWC, kelp, unsulphured molasses, coconut, aloe, and some microbes like recharge and og biowar every other week. The terpenes are amazing like orange zest fruit punch with a lemony squeeze and a touch of gas.


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## hillbill (Nov 18, 2022)

Just add water when needed but not much, nothing will add much if anything this late in the run.


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## ClaytonNewbilFontaine (Dec 17, 2022)

headtreep said:


> *Botanicals :*
> This was a post I found on icmag to share. All credit goes to the original author who wrote this post.
> Source https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=254210 http://www.frenchgardening.com/tech.html?pid=3164873867231346
> 
> ...


This was extremely helpful. I just picked up some comfrey root cutting and they've sprouted in the pots I have them in. Going to wait until spring to get them in the ground. Also going to hunt some stinging nettles and horse tail too. Just started getting into organics, thanks for posting this.


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## 2cent (Dec 19, 2022)

Is it worth trying to fix soil after til 5 feels a bit fucked , 
Or better make new ? They say they get better after time but I fee til 3 is good 4 and 5 go bad 
Soil test says it’s all outa whack 
So why don’t I just add worm poo and pre buffered peat and have at it ?


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## bobrown14 (Dec 21, 2022)

ClaytonNewbilFontaine said:


> This was extremely helpful. I just picked up some comfrey root cutting and they've sprouted in the pots I have them in. Going to wait until spring to get them in the ground. Also going to hunt some stinging nettles and horse tail too. Just started getting into organics, thanks for posting this.


Comfrey has really deep roots and they get pretty large - ours about 4' in diameter and 3 feet tall. Best place to plant them is close to your compost bin so you dont have far to go with the cuttings. Also choose wisely on location because you can take more rootings but you wont get rid of the plants once you plant them in the ground they there to stay. 

We get about 5-6 harvests a year in zone 5, we wait till the bees are done them chop to crown and repeat. 

Best ever right there can lay leaves on the soil and they are gone in 3-4 days they just melt into the soil. 

Oh and its a very good medicinal plant for you much like cannabis is. Oldtime name of this plant is called knitbone just dont eat it. topical use for joint pain oil salve or tincture.


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## farmerfischer (Dec 21, 2022)

bobrown14 said:


> Comfrey has really deep roots and they get pretty large - ours about 4' in diameter and 3 feet tall. Best place to plant them is close to your compost bin so you dont have far to go with the cuttings. Also choose wisely on location because you can take more rootings but you wont get rid of the plants once you plant them in the ground they there to stay.
> 
> We get about 5-6 harvests a year in zone 5, we wait till the bees are done them chop to crown and repeat.
> 
> ...


Its a good plant ,(for plants and people), just if you consume this plant in anyway be sure not to over indulge,, its high in protines and has shown to cause liver and kiddney problems if over done..(vegans)


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## ClaytonNewbilFontaine (Dec 21, 2022)

bobrown14 said:


> Comfrey has really deep roots and they get pretty large - ours about 4' in diameter and 3 feet tall. Best place to plant them is close to your compost bin so you dont have far to go with the cuttings. Also choose wisely on location because you can take more rootings but you wont get rid of the plants once you plant them in the ground they there to stay.
> 
> We get about 5-6 harvests a year in zone 5, we wait till the bees are done them chop to crown and repeat.
> 
> ...


Very helpful bro thanks


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## ClaytonNewbilFontaine (Dec 27, 2022)

PKHydro said:


> Just picked up everything I need to make my first no till pots. Here's my mix
> 
> 
> BASE:
> ...


I know that was years ago but how'd this work out? This is exactly what I was going to do. I read about 10 pages further but didn't see an update from you, so I figured I'd ask.


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## ThaiStick710 (Dec 30, 2022)

Awesome thread, I have a few questions. I’m about to make my first LOS no till batch. Can anyone drop some info on how much or what ratio of amendments list etc for 3. 3.8 bales of sphagnum peat? Thanks.


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## bobrown14 (Jan 3, 2023)

Google "Coots Mix" you will find what you need.


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## bobrown14 (Saturday at 9:08 AM)

Looks like sick weed. Check your water source, looks like high pH and some other stuff causing lockout. And the soil looks WAY too dry.


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