# Most Efficient Commercial Grow Methods



## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 10, 2010)

So in High Times and such I always see these amazing grow ops where there are people running up to and above 100 plants but rarely do they go into the specifics of the operation. 

My question is what methods of growing are the indoor commercial standards? I realize you could take any type whether DWC, Ebb and Gro/Flow, Aeroponics, even soil and scale it up but what are really the most efficient operations? 

Please keep the "if you don't know you shouldn't be asking" comments and such to yourself. I'm one of those forward thinking and planning type people so I appreciate the info. Thanks!


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## teddiekgb123 (Dec 10, 2010)

My friend who I got my cheese from has a warehouse grow and he uses the ebb n' gro system. I'm by no means anywhere close to an expert but I'll still give ya my thoughts as I am also one of those forward thinking people and have given this question some thought already. 

For one, the question can only be answered in very general terms. There's so many little specifics that are unique to each location, especially in a large commercial setup, that it would be pointless to give specific details and say "this is how you do it" unless you are building everything from the ground up.

Hydro is definitely more efficient both in speed and production. If it's a medical grow where numbers count I would go with an ebb n' gro. Ebb n' gro's are great systems that allow the buckets to be directly on the ground so you can grow them big. They are a little quirky...sometime the pump doesn't shut off and floods your room. Sentinel also makes one that's digital, has a water sensor and alarm, and better buckets. Personally I'm a little partial to scrog right now so I would do that on a large scale. If you're a guerrilla grower you may consider a large aeroponics array and grow shorter plants in a sea of green. I think one of the keys for efficiency is to do a setup with the fewest amount of reservoirs as possible. DWC won't be the best method I think and normal ebb n' flow is a nasty green mess. 
For environmental controls, pretty much everything is just bigger. You use co2 burners instead of tanks and you may have several small rooms or a couple big rooms, sealed environment or vented, cold climate or hot......all of which completely change your setup. two cents please


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 11, 2010)

Thanks for the info. Just so happens I'm already running a CAP Ebb and Gro so that works great. Been interested in checking out the Sentinel version also, I hear its a bit more refined.

How much of a difference does C02 really make? Especially in such a large environment? Could a person expect a 5% increase in yield? 10%? I really don't know much about it. Spent all my efforts on learning to control temp and humidity. Figured the basics were the most important before getting fancy with the C02.


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## ElectricPineapple (Dec 11, 2010)

expect, if used right at constant 1500 ppm's in a sealed room, a 15-20% increase or maybe more if your good. but you have to raise you daytime temps to 82-85.


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## Nice Ol Bud (Dec 11, 2010)

I love weed dude,
no idea what your talking about lol.

NoB


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 11, 2010)

ElectricPineapple said:


> expect, if used right at constant 1500 ppm's in a sealed room, a 15-20% increase or maybe more if your good. but you have to raise you daytime temps to 82-85.


And its still practical in a warehouse/commercial setting? Damn that would be insane. So lets say it increases your yield 20% now subtract the ammount you spent on propane I wonder how far ahead you really come out vs. all the extra work.


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## ElectricPineapple (Dec 11, 2010)

propane is real cheap, compared to ganj. think about it, if you were going to get 10 pounds, with CO2, you would get 12. if you are getting 3000 an elbow, tht an increase in profit of by 6000. you wont use 3000 gallons of propane in 7-8 weeks in a commercial grow. even running 4-5 burners. but you would probably getting a yield somewhere around atleast 40-50 pounds, which would an increase in profit by, 24,000-30,000. id say its worth it.


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 11, 2010)

Gotcha! I don't think I've ever bought propane before plus not knowing the consumption rate of the burners had me wondering. Thanks!


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## ElectricPineapple (Dec 11, 2010)

ya, where im at, propane is heavily used, and isnt that cheap. but im paying about 2 bucks a gallon.


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## marijuananation (Dec 11, 2010)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> I always see these amazing grow ops where there are people running up to and above 100 plants but rarely do they go into the specifics of the operation.
> 
> My question is what methods of growing are the indoor commercial standards? I realize you could take any type whether DWC, Ebb and Gro/Flow, Aeroponics, even soil and scale it up but what are really the most efficient operations?
> 
> I appreciate the info. Thanks!


 
There is not one set way of growing standards for the commercial cultivation of marijuana (indoor/outdoor/greenhouse) or a set number of plants.

However The most effective commercial scale gardening methods have been proven time and time again using soil or a soilless mix.
Fully sealed rooms that have no in or out vents..
You would cool these rooms with air conditioning units or chillers.
You would bring C02 into the atmosphere (grow rooms).
Dehumidifiers are brought into the rooms to lower the humidity and Humidifiers to increase the humidity of the rooms.
THESE ARE CALLED PERFECT ROOMS 

You should also note that most of the grows in high times are from growers that supply the smoke shops in the netherlands (amsterdam and surrounding cities).

Peace and happy Growing !!


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 11, 2010)

So that answers all my "how" questions so I suppose. Thanks!

At this point of an operation quality would already be locked down (and always my main concern) so my next tweaking would consist of quantity. What I've always wondered about is the actual yield difference between doing a SOG and putting clones directly to 12/12 or taking an extra 2-4 weeks as veg time. I'm talking about after they've rooted of course. Thanks!


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## marijuananation (Dec 11, 2010)

TRICK QUESTION !! LOL

The difference is the GROWER !! 

The yields could be comparable in either method.. (Per square meter is how marijuana is measured by finished product weight)

bigger plants = bigger/more buds, but if you have a large ammount of smaller plants taking up the same ammount of space you can get the same if not a greater yield (in less time)...

but for the commercial cultivation of marijuana almost all of them are running a SOG method and placing clones directly into flower.

they are in the business to produce alot of product in the shortest ammount of time possible.

*PEACE AND HAPPY GROWING !!*


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## theGREENmonster333 (Dec 11, 2010)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> So that answers all my "how" questions so I suppose. Thanks!
> 
> At this point of an operation quality would already be locked down (and always my main concern) so my next tweaking would consist of quantity. What I've always wondered about is the actual yield difference between doing a SOG and putting clones directly to 12/12 or taking an extra 2-4 weeks as veg time. I'm talking about after they've rooted of course. Thanks!


Yield is not expressed in relation to the number of plants that you have but the amount of lighting (lumens) that you have. The last poster who talked about the perfect room is pretty right on but there is so much else that goes into something like this i assume this is a long ways off for you. I grow sog but IMO if I were going to do something like this I would have one or two huge flower rooms with tons of vented 1000w's and I would use Hydro Bucket Systems. I don't like huge plants I think it takes a little away from quality *IMO* but for efficiency gains you want to have as few plants as possible. There's so much more I could say but you can find all that out your self. goodluckk.


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## theGREENmonster333 (Dec 11, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> TRICK QUESTION !! LOL
> 
> The difference is the GROWER !!
> 
> ...


sog is way to much work for an operation this size. sog commercial growers are not growing 30 lbs a month. There are commercial growers out there using every method you could imagine.


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## theGREENmonster333 (Dec 11, 2010)

and the difference is definately the grower


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## Canibitual (Dec 11, 2010)

Commercial Productions in Hydroponic systems, tend to use the Ebb and FLow system on flood tables. they generally use alot of rockwool, placeing the rockwool directly on the table, and growing many short plants aprox 15" tall in 4x4 squares 

an example would be a 4x8 flowering table with three 600w bulbs and 160 plants at 15" with no topping... growing aprox 3lbs ($3500x3=$10,500) per table... scaled up around 20+ tables = $210,000k a month, 2.5million a year... easily managed by around 4-6 people.... this is still one of the easyiest to maintain, and easyiest to cleanup... and pretty much the best way to grow without much work involved. 

other systems tend to be very expensive to implement, very messy to clean, they clog up the equipement, and are generally a pain in the rear (I know, I've used most of them)

commercial growers also use twice the flowering space as the Veg to keep them cycleing every month... and have many mothers to keep them fully stocked with fresh new clones to keep that large op going. afterall, we are talking about 1000's of plants...

proper ventalation, Temps, Humidity, Co2, are all things that are generally regulated very well...


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## Canibitual (Dec 11, 2010)

some pictures of commercial and Semi-commercial Operations I found while googleing...









View attachment 1319274



View attachment 1319287


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 11, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> TRICK QUESTION !! LOL
> 
> The difference is the GROWER !!
> 
> ...


Gotcha, makes sense. So I always see yields quoted in grams per square meter but what does that really mean to me? How is that really calculated? I've got good common sense but I'm not the brightest bulb in the drawer.


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 11, 2010)

Canibitual said:


> some pictures of commercial and Semi-commercial Operations I found while googleing...
> 
> View attachment 1319270
> 
> ...


Thanks for the info and great pics!


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## marijuananation (Dec 12, 2010)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> Gotcha, makes sense. So I always see yields quoted in grams per square meter but what does that really mean to me? How is that really calculated? I've got good common sense but I'm not the brightest bulb in the drawer.


Please do not listen to Canibutal or the greenmonster333
with advice like this 


> Yield is not expressed in relation to the number of plants that you have but the amount of lighting (lumens) that you have, I don't like huge plants I think it takes a little away from quality *IMO* but for efficiency gains you want to have as few plants as possible. sog is way to much work for an operation this size.


Clearly they do not have a clue what the heck they are talking about my friend.

For one yield has nothing to do with the ammount of lumens you have it all depends on your growing methods, experience and nutrients.

The more mature the plant is before you flower it the better the quality of the product will be, it has nothing to do with size".

He must be joking when he says that commercial SOG growers are not growing 30 lbs a month

Commercial growers are clearing well over 30 lbs a month my friend in SOG..



> Commercial Productions in Hydroponic systems, tend to use the Ebb and FLow system on flood tables. this is still one of the easyiest to maintain, and easyiest to cleanup... and pretty much the best way to grow without much work involved.


Actually the easiest most forgiving garden method to maintain is soil or a soilless mix so he is definately way off in that aspect.

Hydroponics has to be constantly maintained (alot of work) if one thing is off your crop is ruined.

Here is my decsription of SOG METHOD. 

you can use tables,or individual pots, hydroponics whatever you want.. the bottom line is for mass/commercial production you are doing a SOG method

SOG Is the theory of harvesting lots of small plants, matured early to get the fastest production of buds available.​ 
Instead of growing a few plants for a longer period of time, in the same space many smaller plants are grown that mature faster and in less time.
Thus, less time is required between crops.​ 
This is important to you when the electricity bill comes each month.
One crop can be started while another is maturing, and a continuous harvest, year round can be maintained.​ 
4 plants per square foot will be a good start for seedlings.
1 plant per square foot will allow plenty of room for each plant to grow a large top cola, but will not allow for much bottom branching.​ 
This is OK since indoors, these bottom branches are always shaded anyway, and will not grow very well unless given additional light and space.​ 
The indoor grower quickly realizes that plants that are too tall do not produce enough at the bottom to make the extra growing time used worth while. An​ 
exception to this rule would be if it is intended the plants are to go outside at some point, and it is expected that the light/shading issue will not be a factor at that point.​ 
The plants, if started at the same time, should create what is called a "green canopy" that traps most of the light at the top level of the plants.​ 
Little light will penetrate below this level, since the plants are so close together.
The gardener is attempting to concentrate on the top of the plant, and use the light and space to the best advantage, in as little time as possible. Use of nylon poultry fence or similar trellising laid out over the green canopy will support the plants as they start to droop under the weight of heavy fruiting tops.
Stakes can be used too, but are not as easy to install for plants in the middle and back of the room, where reach is more difficult.​ 
It's easy to want big plants, since they will produce more yield per plant, but it's usually better with limited space to grow smaller plants that mature faster and pack into smaller spaces.
Sea of Green was developed in Holland. Instead of fitting 4 large plants in that small room, fit 12 small ones on a shelf above 12 other small plants.
These plants take only 3-4 months to mature from germination to ripe buds, and harvesting takes place constantly, since there is both a vegetative and flowering area devoted to each, with harvests every 45-60 days.​ 
It's not the size of the plant, but the maturity and quality of the product that counts.
Twice as many plants grown half as big will fill the grow space twice as fast, so harvests take place almost twice as often.
Get good at picking early flowering plants, and propagate only those that are of the best quality. 
6" square containers will allow for 4 plants per square foot.
You may also gauge by the size of your growing tray (for passive hydroponics)
you can use kitty litter boxes. ($3 each at walmart) Planted 4 per square foot, (for vegetative seedlings) a 12 sq. ft. closet will hold 48 seedlings on one shelf.
In any case, you can use 4" rockwool cubes that fit into kitty litter pans @ 12 cubes per pan.
You can get 5 pans onto a 12 sq. ft. closet upper shelf, so that is 60 seedlings on one small shelf!​ 
For flowering indoors, 1 plant per sq. ft. is a good rule of thumb for SOG.​ 
If less plants are grown in this size space, it will take them longer to fill the space, thus more electricity and time will be used to create the same amount of product.​ 
If more than one plant p.s.f. is attempted, the grower will soon find that plants thus crowded tend to be more stem than bud, and the total harvest may be reduced, so be cautious.​ 
It's good to avoid "topping" your plants if you want them to grow as fast as possible. 
It's better just to grow 2 or 4 times more plants, since they will produce more, faster, in the same space.​ 
Also, "training" plants with twist-ties is a great way to get them to bush out a bit. Just take any type of plastic or paper twist tie and wrap it around the top of the plant, then pull it over until the top is bent over 90-180 degrees and then attach this to the main stem lower on the plant.​ 
Do this for one week and then release the plant from it's bond.
The plant can be trained in this fashion to take less vertical space and to grow bushier, to fill the grow space and force lower limbs to grow upward and join the green canopy.​ 
This technique takes advantage of the fact that if the top is pulled over, it creates a hormonal condition in the plant that makes it bush out at all lower internodes.​ 
Sea of Green entails growing to harvest the main cola (top) of the plant.​ 
Bottom branches are trimmed to increase air flow under the "blanket" of growing tops. Use them for cuttings when you need more clones.​ 

*ALL OF THE PICTURES THAT HE HAS POSTED ABOVE ARE ALL USING THE SOG METHOD WHATEVER WAY YOU LOOK AT IT !! AND NONE OF THOSE ARE ON A COMMERCIAL SCALE WHEN I LOOK AT THEM !!*

*HERE ARE HOW US CANADIANS FROM BRITISH COLUMBIA GARDEN ON A COMMERCIAL LEVEL !!*


























































    












*BELOW IS MY OWN PERSONAL SEMI COMMERCIAL SCALE OUTDOOR CROP AND MY REWARDS FOR MY LABOUR (OKANAGAN VALLEY BRITISH COLUMBIA 2006.*


*I was using the sog method growing Hindu Kush and I Sucesfully Harvested over 50lbs of dry product for a whopping sale price of $150,000.*


*I bought the truck below with some of the money and my friend wrote it off a year and a half later while driving without a license and in turn I received nothing back from the insurance company in form of compensation.*

*I was not going to charge my friend, but I was not gonna tell them that I knew he had no license either.*
*So I ate the cost of the truck ( over $60,000 Canadian).*
*After all mother nature did provide it for me to enjoy it while I had it.*
*It was my stupidity to let him drive my truck any way, we are still friends to this day, but I bust his balls about it all the time*
*I can tell he still feels bad about it after over 3 years everytime I bring it up to him too.. lol*

*My outdoor crops this year are going to the medical dispensaries around Vancouver BC*











**​ 


* PEACE AND HAPPY GROWING !! *


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 12, 2010)

Great info, thanks!

I have but humble aspirations of harvesting about a pound every two weeks. Forgive me if this sounds retarded but its one way I thought of doing it. I'd like to run 3 different strains and each one would be harvested once every 6 weeks. I don't want to have to maintain mothers so my grow would start from seed and I would take clones from my best females right before I put them to flower. I understand at the beginning that steps will need to be taken to insure correct sexing. Anyway, the way I saw it in my head was:

Flowering under HPS
Week 8 - LSD - 8 Plants
Week 7
Week 6 - Vanilla Kush - 8 Plants
Week 5
Week 4 - G13 Haze - 8 Plants
Week 3
Week 2 - LSD
Week 1

Vegging under MH
Week 4 - Vanilla Kush
Week 3
Week 2 - G-13 Haze 
Week 1

Clones Rooting
Week 3 - LSD
Week 2
Week 1 - Vanilla Kush

It would be a total of 56 plants spaced 2 weeks apart. I figured using the Ebb and Gro setup like I am would allow me to just move the inside pot without a lot of trouble. Part of the reason I wanted to veg for fewer larger plants was the legal side of it.

Don't know if I explained that all correctly (currently smokin) but in my head it sounds solid.


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## theGREENmonster333 (Dec 12, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> Please do not listen to Canibutal or the greenmonster333
> with advice like this
> 
> 
> ...


marijuananation I am not going to read all of that but the amount of light/watts/lumens is what determines yield. Obviously there are many other aspects but this is the main variable. You're going to grow over 50 lbs a month using rockwoll and sog? Good luck with a shit load of reservoirs and physical work along with all of the health problems you can see with rockwool. I'll grow 1/10th of the number of plants and get the same yield and have a ton less work to do. If you or your friends grow in soil and sell to dispensaries well, ill stay away from that medicine. ESPECIALLY if it is outdoor. 

"The more mature the plant is before you flower it the better the quality of the product will be, it has nothing to do with size".
-How are you going to argue for sog methods (flowering when plants are very immature) and argue against it at the same time? Not really sure what page youre on here. And btw as plants mature they grow in size.

"He must be joking when he says that commercial SOG growers are not growing 30 lbs a month"
-Actually I said that it is much more efficient to grow less plants if you are growing as much marijuana as 30+ lbs per month. 



""Commercial Productions in Hydroponic systems, tend to use the Ebb and FLow system on flood tables. this is still one of the easyiest to maintain, and easyiest to cleanup... and pretty much the best way to grow without much work involved. "" 
"Actually the easiest most forgiving garden method to maintain is soil or a soilless mix so he is definately way off in that aspect."
-Actually he said Comercial Productions *In Hydroponic Systems*. In case you didn't know soil is not used in hydroponic systmes so YOU my friend are way off. Not to mention soil harvests are inferior in every department ecxept taste. This is why Cali has much much *MUCH *better buds than BC. 



Whatever tho to each it's own peace out.


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## arik maso (Dec 12, 2010)

damn that field of hindu kush looks pretty. reminds me of a magazine article done on reeferman (reeferman seeds). his style of outdoor growing was very similar


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## fabfun (Dec 12, 2010)

that was just a totally worthless post was it just meant to run up your post count
seems like we been seeing a lot of these kinds of post from you



Nice Ol Bud said:


> I love weed dude,
> no idea what your talking about lol.
> 
> NoB


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 12, 2010)

theGREENmonster333 said:


> ...the amount of light/watts/lumens is what determines yield. Obviously there are many other aspects but this is the main variable...
> 
> Whatever tho to each it's own peace out.


I'm one of those "go big or go home" people so I've got the lighting side pretty well locked down. Still appreciate the info though!


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## woodsmaneh! (Dec 12, 2010)

Over the years I found I have gotten lazy and moved away from ebb & flow to soil in pots and coco in pots. Now I grow in dirt in raised beds and just water and every 2 months top dress. Very happy with the results and my yield has never been better. Yup organic. But I'm not rabid about it, just works very well for me and I have more time to do other things. I water once a week and no ph adjust or anything. I have 10 1000w, 2 600w 6 400w and 16 t5"s


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## marijuananation (Dec 12, 2010)

theGREENmonster333 said:


> Whatever tho to each it's own peace out.


I'm not going to get into a pissing match with someone who has 30 posts and no reputation.

I actually believe the main variables to be The Grower and the Genetics of the plant not the ammount of light.

I can get a better quality yield of bud off of my 600 watt hps light than I could get off of my 1000 watt light because I can get the light closer to the tops of my plants, therefore using less light to grow more higher quality bud. ( the only difference is the penetration depth of the canopy. and my cure for this is lollipopping the shit outta my ladies.

Every commercial grower I know uses soil in BRITISH COILUMBIA CANADA, I do not know of one person using a hydroponic system for the commercial cultivation of marijuana.

How the hell do you figure that it is more effecient to grow less plants if you want more finished product in the end as quick as possible._(remember commercial cultivation, not a __basement grow operation, this is not even close to a commercial level)_

The only time someone would grow less plants for longer is if they were legal growers, most of the time it is the legal growers who grow less plants bigger because they are scared to go over there 15-25 plant limits, so they grow 2 - 4 plants per 600-1000 watt light
spend longer and more time vegging and grow less plants for the maximum yield. (like myself)

I think not for the commercial cultivation of marijuana they want there product grown and sold they dont want to be vegging there plants 2 months plus.. take those cuttings let them root and throw them into flower. 

I do not grow in rockwool and SOG what thread are you reading pal? I was simply saying that it is a possibility.

I am a sunshine mix #4 grower. Look at my journals.

Mature plants can be a cutting from a mature mother plant..

it doesn't mean that I am going to grow my plants to become monsters until the mature, I am gonna let my mother mature and take clones from her, therefore the clones are all mature enough to be placed immediately into flower.. (hence nothing to do the size of the plant but the maturity of the plant).



> soil harvests are inferior in every department ecxept taste. This is why Cali has much much *MUCH *better buds than BC.


So what you are telling me is that Cali growers only grow in hydroponics??

California and the rest of the USA has and always will be behind BC on our marijuana quality and quantity)

Us British Columbians have a much more Superior product than that of our american counterparts.

what strains has California come out with?? BC BIG BUD?? BC KUSH?? TRAINWRECK?? SHISKABERRY??

nope california decided to create california orange schwag weed..

that tells you right there that the USA is behind BC in the race for the Best yielding and best quality marijuana.

We always have and we always will be superior, sorry to burst your bubble, but it's a proven fact.

WHy do you think we can trade a kilo of our BC GRADE B for a kilo of your A grade COCAINE??

hmmmmm.. because your commercially grown weed is never grown properly, it is never flushed properly, I have alot of family in the USA and I have smoked alot of USA marijuana never once has it ever compared our BC Grade A. (_personal preference please do not take offence_)



> I am not talking shit about americans I am simply expressing my views on american quality of marijuana, please do not take offence to what I have written. Thank you.


READ THE BELOW POST I HAVE WRITTEN COMPLETELY BEFORE YOU RESPOND. PLEASE.



Growing METHODS HYDRO VS SOIL:

There has been a debate as to which growth medium is most beneficial for home- or commercially-grown plants.

On one end there is soil, the traditional growth medium that has been used for thousands of years to grow plants, and on the other is hydroponics, a more recent practice of growing plants with water and nutrients but no soil.

So the question remains, which process is more suitable for growing things? 


One of the most important advantages of hydroponics over soil growth is the absence of weeds and pests in hydroponic growth environments.

Soil can play host to a variety of insect pests and plant parasites as well as competing weeds that can take away valuable nutrients or sunlight from your plants.

Of course, if you are growing a small number of plants indoors in small pots, then chances are that you won't run into too many problems with weeds or pests that you can't handle as needed.

However, if you're planning on growing many plants that require a good deal of nutrients and live in a pest-susceptible environment, then hydroponics may be the way to go in order to avoid spending money on pesticides and herbicides. 


Hydroponics also benefit the overall growth of the plant in terms of size.

Root systems spread throughout soil in order to increase surface area and the chance that the plant will absorb minerals and water that percolate through the soil.

However, with hydroponic plants, the nutrients are present all throughout the liquid mixture, so the root system does not have to be as extensive as with soil-based plants.

This means that the plant can devote more nutrients and energy to growth above the root system, which is the kind of growth that people generally want.

Furthermore, plants that are grown hydroponically do not need to be repotted in order to accommodate growing roots that might become too large for the initial pot to contain comfortably.

The hydroponic plants are constantly supplied with a ready stock of water and generally reach maturity faster than soil-grown plants. 


It might seem as if hydroponics require more water than soil-based plants.

The contrary is actually true in this case, as hydroponic systems generally use up to one-tenth less water than irrigated soil crops. 


*Is there any way that soil is better than hydroponics?*

*The answer is yes.*

Since hydroponics depends on adding balanced nutrient solutions at particular times during growth, it is quite possible to make mistakes when giving nutrients to the water-grown plants.

With soil-grown plants, excessive nutrients can be more readily absorbed and carried away by the soil.

Although hydroponics is not a particularly difficult system for growing plants, it is one that requires a good deal of attention, research, and care. 


*In conclusion, hydroponics carries several advantages over soil-growing and could benefit the grower in a number of ways.*

_*However, soil-growing has been tried and true for centuries and is certainly not inferior to hydroponics so long as the grower is diligent and careful. *_


* PEACE AND HAPPY GROWING !! *​


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## marijuananation (Dec 12, 2010)

arik maso said:


> damn that field of hindu kush looks pretty. reminds me of a magazine article done on reeferman (reeferman seeds). his style of outdoor growing was very similar


Thank you, I used every tip out of the marijuana *grow bible (Highly Recommended)* for that harvest, it was so much work but at the same time so rewarding and totally worth it. 

Peace and Happy Growing !!


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## teddiekgb123 (Dec 12, 2010)

Well BiteSize, if ya got one thing from this thread it's probably that everyone has their own ideas and experiences. Perhaps it's not about finding the one method that's so much better than the other, and more about what method will work best for you and your particular circumstances. good luck


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## woodsmaneh! (Dec 12, 2010)

A couple of other points

When people talk about ways to grow they tend to quote the top 8% of growers results as to what is better. Are you in or will you ever be in that top group? You need to master all six elements to get there. To many variables in hydro for me, too time consuming also.

There is much less work to dirt farming vs hydro.

There is far more to go wrong in hydro than dirt. I speak from experience.

Stick with one real good plant and learn what it loves, experiment with other seeds looking for the replacement.

Dirt people and hydro people are like ford vs chevy.

It's good for the soul no matter how you roll...


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## teddiekgb123 (Dec 12, 2010)

woodsmaneh! said:


> A couple of other points
> 
> When people talk about ways to grow they tend to quote the top 8% of growers results as to what is better. Are you in or will you ever be in that top group? You need to master all six elements to get there. To many variables in hydro for me, too time consuming also.
> 
> ...



Well said woods....I do take issue with a couple points though. I don't think that you can say, depending on the setup, that hydro is "much" more work than dirt. Growing with hydro for me has been almost boring in the sense that I only work on the grow for about 20-30 min a day. Except for training and other things which I would do regardless of how I grow. I have friends who grow in soil and soiless and they're always bitching about how much time they spend watering and how messy it is. If you have a run-to-waste setup, that makes watering a lot easier but I still don't see how hydro ends up being sooooo much more time. 
I agree that if something goes wrong you can lose everything, but in a larger setup with multiple reservoirs it's not going to be a major loss like it would a small scale grower.


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## doniawon (Dec 13, 2010)

woodsmaneh! said:


> A couple of other points
> 
> When people talk about ways to grow they tend to quote the top 8% of growers results as to what is better. Are you in or will you ever be in that top group? You need to master all six elements to get there. To many variables in hydro for me, too time consuming also.
> 
> ...


where are you getting your information from?


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## marijuananation (Dec 13, 2010)

theGREENmonster333 said:


> marijuananation I am not going to read all of that but the amount of light/watts/lumens is what determines yield.


I really wish that you would have, read my post fully and then responed.

Your posts would still be up, but you had to be rude to to me and to others and I had to have your rude and insulting comments removed,aswell as my own.

I hope that you decide to learn and share your experiences as opposed to arguing and insulting members on our forum.

I hope to have better more positive experiences with you, for the sake of you keeping your account priveleges.

There is no right or wrong way to do anything in this world, it all boils down to personal preference.

I only ever try to give proper advice to people on this forum and send them in the right direction.

If I do not know the answer I will not answer the question.

However if I do know the answer and you do not, don't get offended because I proved you wrong, take it in stride and use that knowledge as power.. 

To the next person that asks that same question you didn't know the answer to previously, Now may you hopefully be the person to set them in the right direction with the correct answers.

I don't know everything about everything, nor do I try (that is ignorance)..

I am constantly learning more and more everyday that goes by.

If you do not agree with someones thread or post, there are other more simple ways to get your point across as opposed to insulting or being plain old rude to members.

Peace And Happy Growing Everyone !!


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## marijuananation (Dec 13, 2010)

> If you or your friends grow in soil and sell to dispensaries well, ill stay away from that medicine. ESPECIALLY if it is outdoor.


Most of the California Despensaries are supplied by Outdoor Growers while most BC dispensaries are supplied by Indoor Growers. (PROVEN FACT- PLEASE ASK YOUR Cali DESPENSARY where 90% of there products come from they will tell you "outdoor growers")

Why ?? Because Cali's outdoor weather produces some phemnominal marijuana and there is alot of land to grow it on, without the risk of getting busted and going to jail for 25years for a few hundred plants as you almost certainly would if you got busted with an indoor grow of that magnitude (in the USA that is).



> How are you going to argue for sog methods (flowering when plants are very immature) and argue against it at the same time? Not really sure what page youre on here. And btw as plants mature they grow in size.


Mature plants can be as simple as taking cuttings from a fully mature mother plant.
The cuttings are an exact genetic replica including Matureness.
You can therefore place cuttings directly into the flowering room in a SOG method with all of the plants being fully mature and "small" therefore maintaining a perpetual harvest without the need to veg plants for any given ammount of time.



> Actually I said that it is much more efficient to grow less plants if you are growing as much marijuana as 30+ lbs per month.


On the contrary my friend..
It would be much more effecient to fill the grow room with as many pants as possible and crop out as quickly as possible with the least ammount of work possible as opposed to having only a few plants wasting the electricity and water to veg them for two months, when you could already have harvested a crop and started flowering another one, by the time your few plants are done vegging and are ready to be placed into the flower room...



> In case you didn't know soil is not used in hydroponic systmes so YOU my friend are way off. Not to mention soil harvests are inferior in every department ecxept taste. This is why Cali has much much *MUCH *better buds than BC.


once agian you are way off my friend, if you would have read my post as opposed to being "mr. know it all" (you are constantly putting your mouth into gear before your brain is turned on)..

Did you know, only about half of American weed is even grown on home soil.
Foreign schwag floods the market and therefore you never really know what youre paying for, not to mention the fact that youll end up paying almost twice as much for it as I would in Canada (I also know where it comes from and what strains I am getting)

You would have read that I clearly state the differences between soil and hydroponics, I am not some new grower just entering the world of marijuana cultivation, I am a seasoned Veteran of this game.

*Once Again !!*

*In my conclusion, hydroponics carries several advantages over soil-growing and could benefit the grower in a number of ways.*

*However, soil-growing has been tried and true for centuries and is certainly not inferior to hydroponics so long as the grower is diligent and careful.*


*PEACE AND HAPPY GROWING EVERYONE !!*


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## theGREENmonster333 (Dec 13, 2010)

Oh I see now. Please put up my previous post in which i addressed all of your questions and showed alot more proof then you did by using one of the best marijuana dispensaries in california that does NOT purchase or sell any buds grown in soil. The rest is all there. You can't just win an arguement by taking down my post. I'm waiting for the day that you can show me some BC Big Bud danker then the buds i provided. BC supplies all of U.S. with the standard lime green middle of the line big bud that people all over the country smoke on a regualr basis. The foreign schwag is yours. 

AND HOW THE FUCK DO YOU THINK IT IS MORE EFFICIENT AND TAKES LESS WORK AND TIME AND MONEY TO GROW OUT A THOUSAND LITTLE PLANTS YOU HAVE TO CARE FOR VS A MUCH SMALLER AMOUNT A LARGE PLANTS. And i seriously don't know what to tel you if you think soil buds are better than hydro. 

So in your conclusion you have no arguement and you take bot sides.


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## dlively11 (Dec 14, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> TRICK QUESTION !! LOL
> 
> The difference is the GROWER !!
> 
> ...


We have a winner !!!!


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## dlively11 (Dec 14, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> So what you are telling me is that Cali growers only grow in hydroponics??
> 
> California and the rest of the USA has and always will be behind BC on our marijuana quality and quantity)
> 
> ...


Well I agree with most of yours posts but a lot of your post above was just plain silly and comes across as ultra arrogant with a splash of ignorance . Funny you mention BC Big bud. It was one out of about 30 strains I grew this year and it was by far the WORST. Grew big buds but that was it. Terrible smoke and little to no aroma. Grew indoors and outdoors, in hydro and in soil. didnt matter it was garbage. BC Kush doesnt hold a candle to other Kushes I have grown. Saying Ca hasnt produced any good genetics and doesnt produce good quality bud is crazy. I didnt see anyone bashing BC but you sure took your bat to Ca .......


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## Mcgician (Dec 14, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> *you know what I find sooooo funnyyyy ???*
> 
> *You calling me an amateur and then trying to debate facts and give people advice about marijuana cultivation, when you have posts with questions like the ones that I have quoted you in below?? *
> 
> ...


Hahaha!!! That guy got owned.


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## Shrubs First (Dec 14, 2010)

BiteSizeFreak said:


> So in High Times and such I always see these amazing grow ops where there are people running up to and above 100 plants but rarely do they go into the specifics of the operation.
> 
> My question is what methods of growing are the indoor commercial standards? I realize you could take any type whether DWC, Ebb and Gro/Flow, Aeroponics, even soil and scale it up but what are really the most efficient operations?
> 
> Please keep the "if you don't know you shouldn't be asking" comments and such to yourself. I'm one of those forward thinking and planning type people so I appreciate the info. Thanks!


Follow my op, I'll have 360 total. 180 flowering, 180 vegging.

I grow in CANNA Coco with Coco A+B and the rest of the line.

Clones are taken and once rooted are potted in 5x5 pots and vegged for
4 weeks and then are transplanted in to 5 gallon smart pots and begin 
flowering.

I have 12 4'x8' trays with 2x 1000kW bulbs over each tray (24,000 watts) in
flower, with 15 plants per tray (15x12=180).

I top feed using a reservoir, pump, hose and waterwand. I run on a perpetual cycle
so 90 plants move in to flowering once a month, so I'll be harvesting 90 once a month.


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## Shrubs First (Dec 14, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> But to be honest with you there are no american seed breeders anymore, the us government will have none of it..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Idk, I disagree, Rez, JJ-NYC, Swerve, Chemdog, Subcool just to name a few?


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## puffntuff (Dec 14, 2010)

Yeah that's just crazy to say no American breeders. I usually stick with Canadian genetics tho. But you can't sleep on those boys in Ohio who are breeding there own strains and killing the competition.


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## SCCA (Dec 14, 2010)

Marijuananation, i agree with almost everything you say, except Canadian genetics being better than California genetics. There are lots of breeders that produce amazing strains here, many of them do not receive international acclaim like your BC guys do, but the quality is just as good. and if you find REAL orange bud it is a great strain, just lots of fake crap floating around the cali gene pool. if you are gonna breed with cali genes acquire your plants from a reputable source.

As to the op, its mostly what is easiest for you, soil grows can be hooked up to automated (never automatic! IMO) watering systems. but they also require you to keep large amounts of soil on hand. hydro requires reservoirs and a larger startup cost. when it comes down to it, i think is more about the logistics of keeping such a large setup running smoothly. you can produce quality and quantity no matter what your set up, as long as you know all you can about it.


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## dlively11 (Dec 14, 2010)

After reading his post again he actually said all of America not just Cali lol. Little full of themselves a tad ?


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## lowerarchy (Dec 15, 2010)

Back in the day, this thread was about something. Let it continue to be so, Cali vs BC pissing match be damned.

What about that oldschool method of commercial indoor, having a bunch of equipment all the same (same ballasts, lights, pots, fans, etc...) and learning how to use it really well? Keep some moms/clones in one location, run multiple other locations as needed, have it set up for a good work/reward ratio, and go all the way to town. Doesn't matter what kind of method you're using as long as you learn how to use it the best you can. I thought that's how this shit was done: get your condo triplex, "renovate" it while growing the fuck out of the location for six months, move on, nobody the wiser, and never ignore the fact that the law and the rippers could be at your door any minute.

Just saying: most places cultivation is illegal, I think there's a lot to be said for the grower that crops out year after year with .5g/w and minimal equipment, genetics, or even knowledge, just as long as they stay out of jail and off the radar, all the while working the crew of trimmers, maintaining a normal profile and leaving a trail of hardcore in their wake. I'd take that to be efficiency over 3g/w in a "perfect room" that took 160 hours to set up and $15,000 any day.

Edit: Just read what I wrote, unclear even to me, so I'll just say: work vs reward ratio trumps every method. Run or business or have a hobby I don't care, it's all the same to me, just as long as I can get X pounds for Y man hours (I may even try to figure those values someday) it's efficient.


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## marijuananation (Dec 15, 2010)

lowerarchy said:


> Back in the day, this thread was about something. Let it continue to be so, Cali vs BC pissing match be damned.
> 
> What about that oldschool method of commercial indoor, having a bunch of equipment all the same (same ballasts, lights, pots, fans, etc...) and learning how to use it really well? Keep some moms/clones in one location, run multiple other locations as needed, have it set up for a good work/reward ratio, and go all the way to town. Doesn't matter what kind of method you're using as long as you learn how to use it the best you can. I thought that's how this shit was done: get your condo triplex, "renovate" it while growing the fuck out of the location for six months, move on, nobody the wiser, and never ignore the fact that the law and the rippers could be at your door any minute.
> 
> ...


what are you talking about??
this thread is only 3 days old..
back in the day???
are you feeling alright buddy??
3 grams per watt.. really !!!
I agree with you on the pissing match between BC and Cali..
we both grow some killer bud and we both have som excellent genetics floating around our countries..

Peace and Happy Growing !!


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 15, 2010)

Shrubs First said:


> Follow my op, I'll have 360 total. 180 flowering, 180 vegging.
> 
> I grow in CANNA Coco with Coco A+B and the rest of the line.
> 
> ...


I glanced over your journals late last night and will be digging through them again. Thanks for the info!


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## BiteSizeFreak (Dec 15, 2010)

lowerarchy said:


> ...work vs reward ratio trumps every method. Run or business or have a hobby I don't care, it's all the same to me, just as long as I can get X pounds for Y man hours (I may even try to figure those values someday) it's efficient.


Great point. That's exactly what got me to start this thread is trying to find that balance. I work full-time and I don't plan on changing that anytime soon so I really want to make the time I am working on growing count for the most it can.


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## lowerarchy (Dec 15, 2010)

marijuananation said:


> what are you talking about??
> this thread is only 3 days old..
> back in the day???
> are you feeling alright buddy??
> ...


Yeah, 3g/w, Heath Robinson grow. On a 600 as I remember but frankly I don't remember so good. Anyways, good posts in this thread man, keep posting crazy BC ops.


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## streets (Dec 17, 2010)

this thread is what I was lookin for... But too much bullshitshit between.. A few big plants or a bunch of small ones... Which is better???????


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## marijuananation (Dec 17, 2010)

whatever is best for you and your needs my friend..

For more crops a year smaller plants are better. little to no veg time between clones perpetual harvests.

But for bigger plants you could _(not saying you will)_ yield more, this method has a much longer veg time.

I hope this helps, _(sorry about the B.S)_. 

Peace And Happy Growing !!


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## teddiekgb123 (Dec 17, 2010)

streets said:


> this thread is what I was lookin for... But too much bullshitshit between.. A few big plants or a bunch of small ones... Which is better???????


Your question is explained in this thread. A lot of smaller plants grown in a sea of green is better than a few big plants. Unless you are growing legally and numbers count. With this method you have a short veg time if any depending on the strain and better quality smoke since all the buds are cola's. Because the plants are small, not true with many strains, they tend to have higher thc than if you grow them really big.


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## teddiekgb123 (Dec 17, 2010)

.....and if you are growing legally and want to maximize on your numbers, then I would consider doing a scrog. two plants can fill up a 3 x 4 area with only 2-3 weeks veg, plus stretch, and yield at least a lb. if ya put a 1000w above it. Do that to every two plants.


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## grow space (Dec 19, 2010)

Listen to marijuananation, that dude knows hes shit! Respect mann...


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## Canibitual (Jan 4, 2011)

marijuananation said:


> Please do not listen to Canibutal or the greenmonster333
> with advice like this
> 
> 
> ...


Really? I want to see you grow 100lbs with a single 10w Florecent Light... since Lumens doesn't have anything to do with it, you must be able to do that right?...HAHAHA,



> you have it Hydroponics has to be constantly maintained (alot of work) if one thing is off your crop is ruined.


I spend 10minutes a day... 1lb a month... ? alot of work?...really?

and showing how you got 4K a lb for outdoor crap, and a big truck, doesn't help with showing rep... in Cali no one in their right mind pays 4K for outdoor...


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## collective gardener (Jan 7, 2011)

This is one of the most combative threads I have ever read. C'mon guys.


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## purrrrple (Jan 7, 2011)

Look, large numbers of small plants in a SOG setup is by far proven to be the most effective and efficient method. Produce the largest yields in the shortest amount of time & the highest quality product while your at it. Think about it, no veg time, one NICE cola on each plant, and every inch of canopy covered with dense nice fruits because they are packed so close together. I'm talking 64+ on each 4x4 tray.


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## doniawon (Jan 7, 2011)

al b. fuct, or heath robinson.


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## i81two (Jan 8, 2011)

There is an inbetween. I like to veg for 2 weeks, lolipop then veg 1 more and into flower.

You get bigger yields than clone to flower with only 3 week veg.


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## buddwasher (Jan 8, 2011)

gr8 thread + rep to how ever started it

*marijuananation caught my eye wow what an outdoor grow*

*i was sorry to someone rip him down about lummins - i lost interest in the thread and wanted to slate the guy who did the slateing*

*lummins are a measurement for visable light to the human eye - gr8 for selling interior lighting - not so for plants *

*u all herd of Photosynthetically active radiation  (PAR) - this is what a plant can see - a plant cannot use all these lummins that certain lights say are available, so anyone basing there grow on lummins available has been hoodwinked by a slick salesman*

*just annoyed me that someone who is obviously at the top of his game seemed to be getting dis'd*

*plus am out of smoke so i am pissed off  so sue me 
*


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## frogster (Jan 8, 2011)

Yep,,, verticle , sog grow, stadium style... Heath Robinson... havnt seen any thing close to yield per watt&sq ft... I believe that was without co2! But Lumen do matter,,, just need the right spectrum,,, 100,000 lumen doesnt mean anything if its the complete wrong spectrum, its a combo that counts... A hortilux blue 80,000 lumen bulb will outperform a 140,000 lumen bulb that doesnt have a great spectrum (par) Thats why the 400watt CMH, plasma etc lights are so good... great spectrum... So, everyone is kinda right, and everyone is kinda wrong.... Lumen and par combined are very important... Marijuananation posted a truck that was taken away,,and the fact you can trade a kilo of mmj for a kilo of blow is ignorant in several ways, 1. you cant 2. why would you, cocaine is a horrible drug, imo 3. we are all trying to get mmj fully legalized on a federal level, and comments like that are just not helping the cause. , no idea why that was posted...? Also keep your "PRIDE" to a minimum,ie. look at my baddass truck that I once had,,,really, get a life buddy... No reason to come on here posting crap like that..It didnt impress anyone here , im sure, if anything I think less of you for being so foolish, keep it to cultivating fine MMJ and you will gain my respect...


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## collective gardener (Jan 8, 2011)

frogster said:


> Yep,,, verticle , sog grow, stadium style... Heath Robinson... havnt seen any thing close to yield per watt&sq ft... I believe that was without co2! But Lumen do matter,,, just need the right spectrum,,, 100,000 lumen doesnt mean anything if its the complete wrong spectrum, its a combo that counts... A hortilux blue 80,000 lumen bulb will outperform a 140,000 lumen bulb that doesnt have a great spectrum (par) Thats why the 400watt CMH, plasma etc lights are so good... great spectrum... So, everyone is kinda right, and everyone is kinda wrong.... Lumen and par combined are very important... Marijuananation posted a truck that was taken away,,and the fact you can trade a kilo of mmj for a kilo of blow is ignorant in several ways, 1. you cant 2. why would you, cocaine is a horrible drug, imo 3. we are all trying to get mmj fully legalized on a federal level, and comments like that are just not helping the cause. , no idea why that was posted...? Also keep your "PRIDE" to a minimum,ie. look at my baddass truck that I once had,,,really, get a life buddy... No reason to come on here posting crap like that..It didnt impress anyone here , im sure, if anything I think less of you for being so foolish, keep it to cultivating fine MMJ and you will gain my respect...


Well said, Frogster. Even mentioning coke, guns, or anything else associated with real crime has no place in a marijuans discussion. We have spent far too much time trying to convince the masses that cannabis is NOT like these other horrible things. And that truck! Give us a break. Once again, it perpetualizes (sp?) the stereotype of cash rich drug dealer buying expensive toys. Do what you want with your money...it's yours, afterall. But don't jam it down people's throat. I've seen your little peepee truck in several threads now. Like frogster said, we're impressed with your growing skills. You clearly know what you're doing and have much to offer the MMJ community.

Frogster, I've never used the Hortilux Daylight Blue. Is it worth the $$$? We currently use Pulse Start 6.4K. Our veg room has 8 lights. At $60.00 difference per light, it adds up. What effect on growth have you seen with the Daylight Blue?


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## frogster (Jan 8, 2011)

I have never used them (yet),,, I only have mh ballast so those would be the ideal bulb for me... Im trying out an old school type grow (early 70's)... using only mh through the entire grow,, the yield is suppose to suffer a bit , but the quality is suppose to be off the charts... Im also having fun with another grower,(legalyflying),, we are about to start a SCROG-OFF journal... Im using 1" chicken wire and he's using 2x2... we are both flipping 12/12 tuesday, I may wait 1 week behind, we will see... ...Pulse start mh.. google the model or better yet go to the manufacture, they usually have a spectrum chart... Pulse start... Hmm, it a 1000w? Venture bulb or a SYLVANIA, G.E? the cri index is around 65-68, not much of a complete spectrum, 6.4k is heavy on the veg only spectrum ,a 3400-4000k may have been a better choice for a complete grow... ,,, but they will work...The CMH are awesome, too bad they only come in 400watt.. maybe someday... Frogster


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## purrrrple (Jan 11, 2011)

collective gardener said:


> Frogster, I've never used the Hortilux Daylight Blue. Is it worth the $$$? We currently use Pulse Start 6.4K. Our veg room has 8 lights. At $60.00 difference per light, it adds up. What effect on growth have you seen with the Daylight Blue?


I have used the SuperBlue Horts and I can assure you that they are GREAT bulbs. What is not so great however is the price. At some $250+ retail I would say you cannot justify the difference in price UNLESS you are running EXTREMELY long veg periods. They do produce a bushier, stockier, and overall larger/healthier plant but I can't seem to get past the price. We're in CO now but buying from a store in FL and getting the regular Hort MH bulbs for $55 and the Hort Blues for $150 singles. Case price is much better. PM me for the info on the store if your interested as I don't know if the owners would appreciate me posting their info online (as they are in FL).


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## STACKB (Jan 30, 2012)

Can we see a few pics of mothers/cloning rooms? And how are you commercial guys doing the actual cloning process? Anything special or just rockwool cubes in trays? Curious to see those setups , since its the first important half of the project.


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## Guile (Jan 31, 2012)

Efficiency is key... If you want to know how commercial greenhouses run at peak efficiency call one of their supply companies.. Tell the dudes you are getting set up to grow pot legally and they won't even question it (A sale is a sale to most of them). I have been toying with the idea of using 3-5 gallon buckets, filled with growing medium like expanded clay or crushed brick (look into all your reclaimed arrogate options crushed terracotta or other tile might work well too) set on top of milk crates and plumed to a large "stock tank" (for cattle, you get them at hardware stores) and ofcourse a pump. For greenhouse use, where light efficacy is less a concern this seems like a cheap/easy option that allows expansion and movement.

Indoor grows can be a little more tricky (not alot of good commercial referenced to draw from locally). Light is expensive and hard to evenly distribute over a large aria. 
Its my impression that SOG is commonly used (focusing on the main cola) to make the most efficient usage of light (without a huge investment in maintenance). I personally use an ebb n flow system because it allows me to recycle my growing medium (expanded clay pellets) and the ease of dealing with ph and nutrient adjustments (I use the "Lucas formula" too, to recycle nutrients, but its common practice in large greenhouses anyway).

Climate control can be kept efficient by using active ventilation to help maintain reasonable temperatures and humidity, using propane heaters only to warm the environment when temperatures drop below average desired room temperatures (by which time your fans should have been shut down by its management system). This is obviously little more than an individual perspective but my garden is biased on this thinking and though I never flower more than my local limit I feel its as applicable on larger scales..


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## STACKB (Jan 31, 2012)

For those running 20 flood tables , how many mothers is going to produce all those clones? We're talking in the thousands of clones


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## archimedeze88 (Jun 24, 2012)

Way to go Marijuananation. Almost every word from your post was plagiarized. (Except for your random rant about buying a big nice truck. What an interesting story! I wish I could be as cool as you.) Lol.
In the future you should give credit to an author when you rip off an entire chapter of their book instead of implying you wrote it. 


"...... Here is my decsription of SOG METHOD.

SOG is the theory of harvesting lots of small plants, matured early to get the fastest production of buds available......"


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## TheDuder (Jun 24, 2012)

I have dozens. Ebb & Flow commercially. Organic soil for medicine. On the scale you're hinting at, manually or hand feeding each plants medium or res. is to time-consuming, labor intensive, imprecise, etc... Ebb & Flow reduces many of these problems and allows greater automation of control functions. No burners, co2 or the like for me. The commercial side has such an incredible ventilation system that fresh outside air serves its natural purpose and design. 

There is only one secret to indoors: Mimic the Earth and Sun, and treat them as if they were in Eden. 

-The Dude


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## i81two (Jun 24, 2012)

1500 ppm of co2 will increase your commercial productivity.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 31, 2012)

Someone said they get 15 5 gal plants into a 4x8? That seems like a lot.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2012)

bump for research purposes


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## Saldaw (Dec 15, 2012)

i will share some nice videos: SOG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Sa1IIgmtqY&list=LL_MZr_PuDVQ51KZ0ZPDvXKA&index=25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_rY5hDnjuE&list=LL_MZr_PuDVQ51KZ0ZPDvXKA&index=24


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## zack66 (Dec 28, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Someone said they get 15 5 gal plants into a 4x8? That seems like a lot.


I just ran 9 plants in 5gl buckets in a 3x3 and harvested over a pound.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Dec 29, 2012)

our warehouse is 60k watts, we are running coco, we hand water almost everyday (until the owners want to invest in drip system), we harvest 10 lbs a week with 3.5 full time employees. that includes all trimming and hashmaking. we are expanding to a full 100k watts and will only be adding another trimmer or 2. commercial seems to be best running drain to waste coco either hand watered or drip irrigated if you got the skills and the $. we have a simple scrog and veg all our plants for a month, we top them once and flower them at 18" roughly depending on strain with about 6 " of undertrim.
drain to waste coco is the most effiecient and profitable indoor grow method thus far created by man, under 1000 watt lights. 
you cannot run SOG as a legal bigtime grower anywhere in america, thought i would throw that out there. the plant counts are limited by the law. 
as a legal grower for a real dispensary i would like to say that the more moving parts there are in my system the less efficent it is. also, soil yields and grow times are not worth it. we will crush you, 10 lbs a week no bullshit. we run a slightly modified lucas formula, so all them that say its the nutes are crazy. 
its all about GENETICS AND DISTANCE FROM THE LIGHT when it comes to indoor growing for $
our veg room is only 13k watts that includes mothers and cloning. 
we throw away our root balls and buy fresh coco mix everytime, we have to rewash all our pots, and make sure the drain system is clean. any other form of hydro is way too much work and maintenence. you should mixing fresh nutes everytime you water, that takes ALOT OF THE BS OUT OF HYDRO, ebb and flow is flawed like a mother fucker each time it ebbs it changes the resevoir, not good always requires maintenence and the ppm and ph change each time it floods. so you nutrients get weaker and stankier each time. LAME
also these guys that say 600 watt is the way to grow are forgetting a couple of things, number one, spill over light, the light that carries off the sides of a 1000 watt light feeds the rows to the sides. secondly as the light diminishes by the inverse square, at just one foot from the bulb the 1000 watt is putting off alot more lumens vs the 600 which means rock hard dense buds and weight at the top and bottom of the plant. 
for the record SOG may straight up be a slight bit more productive, but its ALOT of repetition, and you have to account for MAN HOURS as you factor the large scale commercial quotient and that means inconsistency and money. every single one of our plants has to labeled with a patients registry number and harvested in a registry online with waste, bud and trim weights. alot of work given the contstraints of the _current_ colorado law.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 29, 2012)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> our warehouse is 60k watts, we are running coco, we hand water almost everyday (until the owners want to invest in drip system), we harvest 10 lbs a week with 3.5 full time employees. that includes all trimming and hashmaking. we are expanding to a full 100k watts and will only be adding another trimmer or 2. commercial seems to be best running drain to waste coco either hand watered or drip irrigated if you got the skills and the $. we have a simple scrog and veg all our plants for a month, we top them once and flower them at 18" roughly depending on strain with about 6 " of undertrim.
> drain to waste coco is the most effiecient and profitable indoor grow method thus far created by man, under 1000 watt lights.
> you cannot run SOG as a legal bigtime grower anywhere in america, thought i would throw that out there. the plant counts are limited by the law.
> as a legal grower for a real dispensary i would like to say that the more moving parts there are in my system the less efficent it is. also, soil yields and grow times are not worth it. we will crush you, 10 lbs a week no bullshit. we run a slightly modified lucas formula, so all them that say its the nutes are crazy.
> ...


I am in 100% agreement here with you. 

A couple of questions


1. What method do you use to drain?

2. How do you flush and how often?

3. Scroggin seems time consuming commercially, care to share a tip?


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## Uncle Ben (Dec 30, 2012)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> our warehouse is 60k watts, we are running coco, we hand water almost everyday (until the owners want to invest in drip system), we harvest 10 lbs a week with 3.5 full time employees. that includes all trimming and hashmaking. we are expanding to a full 100k watts and will only be adding another trimmer or 2. commercial seems to be best running drain to waste coco either hand watered or drip irrigated if you got the skills and the $. we have a simple scrog and veg all our plants for a month, we top them once and flower them at 18" roughly depending on strain with about 6 " of undertrim.
> drain to waste coco is the most effiecient and profitable indoor grow method thus far created by man, under 1000 watt lights.
> you cannot run SOG as a legal bigtime grower anywhere in america, thought i would throw that out there. the plant counts are limited by the law.
> as a legal grower for a real dispensary i would like to say that the more moving parts there are in my system the less efficent it is. also, soil yields and grow times are not worth it. we will crush you, 10 lbs a week no bullshit. we run a slightly modified lucas formula, so all them that say its the nutes are crazy.
> ...


Sounds like someone is a slave to their plants.

Got any pix?


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## phishtank (Dec 31, 2012)

The one question I have...for those that are doing these huge SOG grows...how the fuck do you water the plants in the middle? A hose?


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Sounds like someone is a slave to their plants.


naturally as with any successful flower garden


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 2, 2013)

we have large 4' x 16' flood tables that are slanted at a 15% angle down so they drain. At the end of the table there is a shower drain that reduces to a 1/2" nipple. these all gravity feed to a drain in the floor, with the exception of the ones that are connected to an ebb and gro brain bucket, these are set on "drain" all the time. when the float valve pops up from watering the pumps kick on. 

We dont flush til the end, a part of using fresh water every day enables you skip that step during growth, i dont see the point of it anyway. the roots get fresh oxygen everyday. no stale water in the root ball, ever. so for just a week or so at the end of harvest. 

We have large 4 x 16 foot tables with 4 foot 2x4s every 4 feet. we use a heavy duty nylon trellis. as the plants stretch we train them during the watering chore. they dont need more than one or two trainings if you top your plants and bend them when you flower them, we usually top once. When they are put into flower we bend outwards to open up light to the center of the plant. then strongest/main shoots away from center.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 2, 2013)

phishtank said:


> The one question I have...for those that are doing these huge SOG grows...how the fuck do you water the plants in the middle? A hose?


we have a Mondi sump pump and a goodyear hose, we give the plants a 3 second(half gal) or 5 second(gal) count depending on the day/conditions/treatment the scrog we have is not a sog, way less plants and maintenence, we do between 4 and 6 plants per light and they are on giant 4' x 16' flood tables that drain at an angle, they are all on heavy duty casters so we can roll them around.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Got any pix?


no, some took our lumii's and i havent replaced them, id would like to start a forum for sure though. just have to make sure its ok with the colorado mmed first. thanks


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 2, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> we have a Mondi sump pump and a goodyear hose, we give the plants a 3 second(half gal) or 5 second(gal) count depending on the day/conditions/treatment the scrog we have is not a sog, way less plants and maintenence, we do between 4 and 6 plants per light and they are on giant 4' x 16' flood tables that drain at an angle, they are all on heavy duty casters so we can roll them around.


Sounds like you're doing a manual watering and zero runoff? We do a hose feeding too but like a 5 second watering and it seems to wet our plants for 3-4 days. We use a moisture meter and wont water again until its under 3.0 out of a max of 10


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 2, 2013)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Sounds like you're doing a manual watering and zero runoff? We do a hose feeding too but like a 5 second watering and it seems to wet our plants for 3-4 days. We use a moisture meter and wont water again until its under 3.0 out of a max of 10


we have some runoff i would guess around a cup or 2 per pot. 
we are watering into coco, and I want it to almost dry out everyday, but not quite. what medium are you watering once every 3 or 4 days?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 2, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> we have some runoff i would guess around a cup or 2 per pot.
> we are watering into coco, and I want it to almost dry out everyday, but not quite. what medium are you watering once every 3 or 4 days?


Sunshine Advanced #4 which is Coco/Peat and Perlite. We add about 20% more Perlite too. No chance of drying our daily. Not even when we ran pure Coco and Perlite


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## Canibitual (Jan 2, 2013)

marijuananation said:


> *BELOW IS MY OWN PERSONAL SEMI COMMERCIAL SCALE OUTDOOR CROP AND MY REWARDS FOR MY LABOUR (OKANAGAN VALLEY BRITISH COLUMBIA 2006.*
> 
> 
> *I was using the sog method growing Hindu Kush and I Sucesfully Harvested over 50lbs of dry product for a whopping sale price of $150,000.*
> ...


if that huge amount of plant only amounted to 50lbs... it was shit weed and a shit yield

I personally know Commercial growers doing 50+lbs a month or more.. some use soil, some use Rock wool,

The Soil Growers Like the safety and uncomplicated nature of their grow...

the Rock wool Growers Like to be able to sit their plants in trays and fill rez and only check once a week..

Spider Mites Like Plants no matter what they're grown in...

In my Opinion... Neither method is better than the other, both have ups and downs... enough ups and down on each to level them both...




archimedeze88 said:


> Way to go Marijuananation. Almost every word from your post was plagiarized. (Except for your random rant about buying a big nice truck. What an interesting story! I wish I could be as cool as you.) Lol.
> In the future you should give credit to an author when you rip off an entire chapter of their book instead of implying you wrote it.
> 
> 
> ...


I think your right... I think he even plagiarized the picture of that outdoor grow... I found the same pic somewhere else...

From the looks of that pic, I'd estimate 200+lbs,


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 2, 2013)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Sunshine Advanced #4 which is Coco/Peat and Perlite. We add about 20% more Perlite too. No chance of drying our daily. Not even when we ran pure Coco and Perlite


and you water once every four days?


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## Canibitual (Jan 2, 2013)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Someone said they get 15 5 gal plants into a 4x8? That seems like a lot.


16 5 gallon pots (the wide net style ones) fit in a white tray, a few more if your pots are narrower... however, it's hard to access the pots more than 4 deep... so how you set your tables can be a big issue...


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 2, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> and you water once every four days?


^^^^^^^yes


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 3, 2013)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> ^^^^^^^yes


interesting, what kind of nutrients are yall running?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 3, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> interesting, what kind of nutrients are yall running?



We have used many different kinds. Currently Veg+Bloom by HYdroponic research as our base. Lots of Fungi in veg and early flower and carbs in flower.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 3, 2013)

Canibitual said:


> if that huge amount of plant only amounted to 50lbs... it was shit weed and a shit yield
> 
> I personally know Commercial growers doing 50+lbs a month or more.. some use soil, some use Rock wool,
> 
> ...


that is nice and all but not the point or topic of this thread
this thread is about the most EFFECIENT COMMERCIAL grow setups, not the pros and cons of different growing methods. if you dont have any commercial experience then your opinion doesnt mean a hill of beans to someone with real commerical experience. now, if you have some real operating and employee costs to compare then we might have something. but it sounds like you are a homegrower, not even the same ballpark if you dont employ at least 2 people full time.


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## Canibitual (Jan 3, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> that is nice and all but not the point or topic of this thread
> this thread is about the most EFFECIENT COMMERCIAL grow setups, not the pros and cons of different growing methods. if you dont have any commercial experience then your opinion doesnt mean a hill of beans to someone with real commerical experience. now, if you have some real operating and employee costs to compare then we might have something. but it sounds like you are a homegrower, not even the same ballpark if you dont employ at least 2 people full time.


How many Pounds a month do you consider to be big enough to be a commercial grower... Employee count and hours is irrelevant


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 3, 2013)

canibitual said:


> how many pounds a month do you consider to be big enough to be a commercial grower... Employee count and hours is irrelevant



imo...20+^^^^^


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## mvp1399 (Jan 3, 2013)

After reading through this entire thread I can't express enough gratitude to igothydrotoneverywhere for adding thorough and helpful advice that pertains to the op's topic. Many others on this site should learn from his example. 

I'm curious if you use CO2 enrichment for your grow? Any information regarding commercial grade environment controllers and fans? 

I have 8 years growing experience at a small scale (< 60 plants) but I have been approached to prepare an outline for a commercial grow that will start as soon as the regulations are finalized by the Colorado task force and legislature. Any information you are willing to share from your experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for the helpful advice thus far!


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 4, 2013)

Canibitual said:


> How many Pounds a month do you consider to be big enough to be a commercial grower... Employee count and hours is irrelevant


i think a commerical operation qualifies when you are responsible for more than just your own quality of life for the full fiscal year. meaning your legal employment of at least 2 other full time employees. you have to have at least one full time trimmer(especially if you are trimming real weight) and at least one garden assistant and a fully operational garden that requires attention 365 days a year. 

the reason i bumped this thread is bc i dont know it all, and i would like to cut my costs and improve our cannabis. we have a hell of a good starting point. im sorry if i have been a bit cocky, but i want to know who is doing more with less.
10 lbs/week, after, $2200 a week in employee costs, plus around 1000$ in materials, plus the electric bill, ours is about $4000 a month in the summer, depending on ac use...


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 4, 2013)

mvp1399 said:


> After reading through this entire thread I can't express enough gratitude to igothydrotoneverywhere for adding thorough and helpful advice that pertains to the op's topic. Many others on this site should learn from his example.
> 
> I'm curious if you use CO2 enrichment for your grow? Any information regarding commercial grade environment controllers and fans?
> 
> I have 8 years growing experience at a small scale (< 60 plants) but I have been approached to prepare an outline for a commercial grow that will start as soon as the regulations are finalized by the Colorado task force and legislature. Any information you are willing to share from your experience would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for the helpful advice thus far!


yes! CO2 is a must(especially when the owner finds out about 20-30% more yields) those that say it doesnt work(all they need is fresh air[lmao]) are full of shit or dont have it hooked up right. I have seen the bud grow bigger right before my eyes. with and without it. this debate is over. anyone who states otherwise has never done a controlled experiment. 
you will want to call GREEN CO2 systems. they provide their own solenoid and 100 lb tanks, they come once a week to refill the tanks... FROM OUTSIDE THE BUILDING. super sweet. call brett shutte to get it set up, he runs shit over there.

seems like all the enviroment controllers are way over priced for what they do, make sure you get a co2 sniffer that reaches the center of your grow.
also make sure you have a plan for the cold air going over your lights in the winter, we ran a line from our exhaust manifold to our intake manifold with a damper and booster fan in the middle to warm up the air over our lights(using the recycled air that cools the lights back over them in relative proportion to temperature and humidty) basically it keeps the hoods from raining water like the rainforest.


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## Canibitual (Jan 4, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> i think a commerical operation qualifies when you are responsible for more than just your own quality of life for the full fiscal year. meaning your legal employment of at least 2 other full time employees. you have to have at least one full time trimmer(especially if you are trimming real weight) and at least one garden assistant and a fully operational garden that requires attention 365 days a year.
> 
> the reason i bumped this thread is bc i dont know it all, and i would like to cut my costs and improve our cannabis. we have a hell of a good starting point. im sorry if i have been a bit cocky, but i want to know who is doing more with less.
> 10 lbs/week, after, $2200 a week in employee costs, plus around 1000$ in materials, plus the electric bill, ours is about $4000 a month in the summer, depending on ac use...


so your doing aprox 32 lights total for a building (based on electric cost)... that's about 4 lights coming down each week for aprox 10lbs (very heavy yield per light even if I believe you)... you do not need 2 employee's for 4 lights..., 10lbs should take you 2-3 days to trim yourself...

Transplant, clones, Cleanup and everything else can be done with 1 person... 

32 lights does not take 3 people... especially when they are overlapped to come down weekly... tha's a loss of 114K a year...


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## mvp1399 (Jan 4, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> you will want to call GREEN CO2 systems. they provide their own solenoid and 100 lb tanks, they come once a week to refill the tanks... FROM OUTSIDE THE BUILDING. super sweet. call brett shutte to get it set up, he runs shit over there.


Thanks for the heads up on this company. I love the idea that they fill the CO2 from outside.

I'm interested in hearing about your modified lucas solution that you use for feeding.

I was also wondering if those 4 x 16 flood tables are custom made or if you have a supplier for them?

I imagine with our super dry climate you are using a humidifier? If so how was it sized for your grow? The calculations I've found are all based upon air exchanges with the outside, which obviously aren't applicable to a CO2 grow...

Thanks and I'm sure I'll have a hundred more questions in the coming months...


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 5, 2013)

Canibitual said:


> so your doing aprox 32 lights total for a building (based on electric cost)... that's about 4 lights coming down each week for aprox 10lbs (very heavy yield per light even if I believe you)... you do not need 2 employee's for 4 lights..., 10lbs should take you 2-3 days to trim yourself...
> 
> Transplant, clones, Cleanup and everything else can be done with 1 person...
> 
> 32 lights does not take 3 people... especially when they are overlapped to come down weekly... tha's a loss of 114K a year...


jeez bra,
go back and READ
i have 60 k flowering lights. thanks


----------



## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 5, 2013)

mvp1399 said:


> Thanks for the heads up on this company. I love the idea that they fill the CO2 from outside.
> 
> I'm interested in hearing about your modified lucas solution that you use for feeding.
> 
> ...


we use a 6:9 ratio for lucas with 7 of the koolbloom when they start wanting it...
yes we brought in some good carpenters that fabricated the tables for us... they were a few hundred a piece, but they work and roll and the drain... and they are made out of high quality wood.
it is very dry here, but we run a closed system(bc of co2) and water almost everyday so the humidity is kept between 30 and 50%.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 5, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;ezbOn5CNmX8]http://youtu.be/ezbOn5CNmX8[/video]


----------



## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 5, 2013)

[video=youtube_share;CH59w_yupcQ]http://youtu.be/CH59w_yupcQ[/video]


----------



## a mongo frog (Jan 5, 2013)

Canibitual said:


> so your doing aprox 32 lights total for a building (based on electric cost)... that's about 4 lights coming down each week for aprox 10lbs (very heavy yield per light even if I believe you)... you do not need 2 employee's for 4 lights..., 10lbs should take you 2-3 days to trim yourself...
> 
> Transplant, clones, Cleanup and everything else can be done with 1 person...
> 
> 32 lights does not take 3 people... especially when they are overlapped to come down weekly... tha's a loss of 114K a year...


This guy doesn't have a clue. 10 pounds in 2 days - 3 days. Get the fuck out of here.


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## Canibitual (Jan 5, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> jeez bra,
> go back and READ
> i have 60 k flowering lights. thanks


now I know your full of shit... 60k of lights runs around 7-8k a month... especially if your running AC... Like I said "based on your electric bill at 4K in summer... Even at AG rates...

also you would be pulling down 7-8 lights a week for about 1.3lbs per light (much more reasonable in large productions)

2 people can manage a 30 light flip (60 lights)


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## Canibitual (Jan 5, 2013)

decent trimmers do 1lb per 3-4hrs... so yes... 3lbs a day is possible... and easy if your motivated...


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## Krondizzel (Jan 5, 2013)

Powerbox's and Flipboxes are nice to have. A commercial trimmer is a must as well.


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## supchaka (Jan 5, 2013)

Probably already been said but ebb flow in rockwool is probably the most common commercial setup I've seen.


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## RemeberMe (Jan 7, 2013)

Igothydrotoneverywhere, funny id because it really is a pain like that  

Anyway, I do want to get away from dw and hydroton so I'm thinking coco/drip. I've heard coco absorbs magnesium, what's your secret sauce for it?


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## karmacoma8 (Jan 7, 2013)

Hi everyone, has anybody heard about this new product! I've been trying to google and get more info, but I'm strugglingxc Can anyone help?!

Cheers )


[video=youtube_share;y-r7XaDzsc8]http://youtu.be/y-r7XaDzsc8[/video]


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 7, 2013)

^LOL @ that being your first post.


nice ad


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 9, 2013)

Canibitual said:


> now I know your full of shit... 60k of lights runs around 7-8k a month... especially if your running AC... Like I said "based on your electric bill at 4K in summer... Even at AG rates...
> 
> also you would be pulling down 7-8 lights a week for about 1.3lbs per light (much more reasonable in large productions)
> 
> 2 people can manage a 30 light flip (60 lights)


you are a retard, go away


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 9, 2013)

Canibitual said:


> decent trimmers do 1lb per 3-4hrs... so yes... 3lbs a day is possible... and easy if your motivated...


I have trimmed with the absolute best trimmers in denver metro area and over a hundred now and the most a great trimmer trims is 2lbs in a typical 8 hour day.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 9, 2013)

RemeberMe said:


> Igothydrotoneverywhere, funny id because it really is a pain like that
> 
> Anyway, I do want to get away from dw and hydroton so I'm thinking coco/drip. I've heard coco absorbs magnesium, what's your secret sauce for it?


hesi nutes, lucas was the cheapeast best solution i feel like until i ran hesi at home. i have had great results, their stuff is fortified with calcium and nitrogen, after running a few trials we are switching to the hesi coco line, after this pallet of gh runs out


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 9, 2013)

Krondizzel said:


> Powerbox's and Flipboxes are nice to have. A commercial trimmer is a must as well.


i have used those before and implored a 10 light flip box. It saves if you dont have the power capacity in your warehouse or the money to buy double the ballasts. but honestly you should. 
they sure do make it a pain to schedule regular work hours and there is problems with "hot starting your bubls/ballasts" so you have to turn off all the lights in your grow for 15 minutes _in between flips_ just so you dont burn up your bulbs ballasts. 
imo these devices are helpful for rare circumstances

as a full time commercial grower i prefer to not work in the middle of the night. even tho the electricity is cheaper and the grow runs better. a lot of grow warehouses can ONLY run there power at night in order to avoid maxing out the transformer. even if we flipped mid day, for management purposes it seems more of a headache, more to manage. if the square footage is already maxed out and the building can electricly support all of those square feet, fuck a flip box. ive seen those things almost blow up too,alot going on in that little box . *beware of non ul listed equipment. *


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 9, 2013)

Krondizzel said:


> A commercial trimmer is a must as well.


what kind of trimmer are you using? i am assuming you mean robotic? this was one thing i have thought about but also cringe at, i hear they all strip mad resin of the bud and plant. care to comment?


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## panhead (Jan 9, 2013)

Cannabitual, if you have a problem take it to pm & stop hijacking the guys thread,

Thanks in advance.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 9, 2013)

supchaka said:


> Probably already been said but ebb flow in rockwool is probably the most common commercial setup I've seen.


In Hydroton? Washing all those rocks vs transplanting between coco pots is the question...


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## RemeberMe (Jan 9, 2013)

igothydrotoneverywhere said:


> hesi nutes, lucas was the cheapeast best solution i feel like until i ran hesi at home. i have had great results, their stuff is fortified with calcium and nitrogen, after running a few trials we are switching to the hesi coco line, after this pallet of gh runs out


Geesh, Hesi's formula schedule is one of the hardest to understand I've seen. Do you use all that or just their grow and bloom?


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 10, 2013)

ahh i devised a clever method for cleaning and seperating hydroton, just dump it in a light bleach solution in a 55 gallon trashcan with about 40 gallons of the light bleach solution, the hydroton should float and be easily skimmable.

the problems we are having with coco are cleanliness(we are analy clean here and the stuff gets everywhere) and clogging of 1/2" drain tube, build your joint out with 1" tubing for drains.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 10, 2013)

RemeberMe said:


> Geesh, Hesi's formula schedule is one of the hardest to understand I've seen. Do you use all that or just their grow and bloom?


at home i have used straight hesi coco with pk13/14 and ph down only with amazing results.... you dont need the tnt complex(veg) with scrog or sog. there is enough nitrogen in the bloom solution for growth.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 10, 2013)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> In Hydroton? Washing all those rocks vs transplanting between coco pots is the question...


ive ran another warehouse that was 44k watts _by myself_ that was ebb and flow rockwool, its pretty easy but alot can go wrong with the reses, alot of pumping water back and forth, cleaning a giant 70 gallon resevoir isnt fun at all. multiply that task by 20 and you have a big deal. without a couple thousand dollar steamer vac its hell on wheels. i really like the watering once a day. no recircultaing the excrement of the plant back in the root ball, root rot was common with bottom up feeding in hydro ebb and flow as the roots gravitate towards the bottom. maybe a mix of coco, rockwool cubes and perlite with a layer of hydroton on top will be our final answer. everyday, with a drip system, in a rockwool perlite mix with hydroton on top. but top down watering is the best way to go imo. almost impossible to get root rot. 
there is a lot of dead space on these flood trays too that always seem to accumulate water and get algea growth and bug reproduction


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## BeaverHuntr (Jan 10, 2013)

RemeberMe said:


> Igothydrotoneverywhere, funny id because it really is a pain like that
> 
> Anyway, I do want to get away from dw and hydroton so I'm thinking coco/drip. I've heard coco absorbs magnesium, what's your secret sauce for it?


pre charge your coco in cal/mag 5ml per gallon .....water + coco coir + cal mag and let that shit marinate in Cal mag for 24 hours... Thats how I used to get rid of the cal/mag deficiency you get with coco.. I dont know how useful it will be in a commercial grow scenario just my two cents.


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## RemeberMe (Jan 10, 2013)

"at home i have used straight hesi coco..." I was betting it was simpler than all the crap they were trying to push.

Big growers must get root rot too. How do you treated it?


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 10, 2013)

RemeberMe said:


> "at home i have used straight hesi coco..." I was betting it was simpler than all the crap they were trying to push.
> 
> Big growers must get root rot too. How do you treated it?


i havent had any root rot doing drain to waste,
when i got it doing ebb and flow i used h202, ran it for a day or two in a fresh res, alot of wasted water. recirculating is a pain outside of one op at home, even that is more of a headache for the home grower than drain to waste. drain to waste plus smart pot( or any air pot style i dont like to brand) make root rot a near impossibility


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## RemeberMe (Jan 10, 2013)

So that's coco/perlite using smart pots hand watered with hesi coco and cal/mag 5 ml drain to waste. Sounds simple, lets see how I can screw this up too. 

I've had good luck with dwc until lately. I used RO water out of a store machine and have been battling rr since in the last 2 grows (which should have been 4 grows but having to keep tossing grows out). I was hoping the cold weather would have fixed this problem but it keeps coming back even with res temps below 65f.


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 11, 2013)

RemeberMe said:


> So that's coco/perlite using smart pots hand watered with hesi coco and cal/mag 5 ml drain to waste. Sounds simple, lets see how I can screw this up too.
> 
> I've had good luck with dwc until lately. I used RO water out of a store machine and have been battling rr since in the last 2 grows (which should have been 4 grows but having to keep tossing grows out). I was hoping the cold weather would have fixed this problem but it keeps coming back even with res temps below 65f.


haha u should be fine, you might have a hard time finding hesi as they are just getting going in america.try growco, hesi is a euro company... the easier quicker option is just getting some gh micro and bloom and ph down and doing a lucus run first? that stuff is available everywhere. 6ml micro, 9ml of bloom. if your growing sativas they wont even need the koolbloom, i got 6 lbs/3000w over 10plants plants planted in only 4 gallon pots of our sativa-dom chemdog using only our modified basic lucas. drain to waste baby


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## RemeberMe (Jan 11, 2013)

I went with canna AB and their coco (all they really had). Canna coco is the fine stuff so even a pot not much bigger than the roots will hold more than a days supply of water (guessing by comments from others). I'm still considering if I should take it back and get coir or a blend. What's your take on this igothydroeverywhere?


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## igothydrotoneverywhere (Jan 12, 2013)

RemeberMe said:


> I went with canna AB and their coco (all they really had). Canna coco is the fine stuff so even a pot not much bigger than the roots will hold more than a days supply of water (guessing by comments from others). I'm still considering if I should take it back and get coir or a blend. What's your take on this igothydroeverywhere?


coco and coco coir are the same thing, coir is just the method used for turning it into usable substrate.
we have always used 25% perlite amendment. we used to add it by hand, then we bought royal tupur gold, something that had perlite in it already. then i found a local product from "elevation organics" they sell a coco product with growstones added which basically does the same thing as perlite or hydroton. we use straight coco for new planted clones bc it stays wetter at the root zone longer.


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## Canibitual (Jan 13, 2013)

panhead said:


> Cannabitual, if you have a problem take it to pm & stop hijacking the guys thread,
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Stop abusing your moderator priv... this is not "that guys thread"... and he's the one that keeps putting it back into small grow ops... instead of reliable and efficent "Commercial Grows"


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## wolftickets500 (Mar 9, 2013)

co2 is the one thing i tell people to do for more yield. i have used it for years and swear by it


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## Tempe420 (Apr 21, 2013)

I like this thread.

Also.... Top Feed Coco in 2gal pots. 1sf per plants


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## supadave5000 (Dec 7, 2014)

I grow in coco pots and have a DTW drip irrigation system with two separate reservoirs (Veg and Bloom), each with their own feed pump and a couple of timers I got at www.skipdaytimer.com. I set the first timer to feed daily and the second to feed every other day. Automation is definitely the way to go!


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## Carolina Dream'n (Dec 8, 2014)

theGREENmonster333 said:


> sog is way to much work for an operation this size. sog commercial growers are not growing 30 lbs a month. There are commercial growers out there using every method you could imagine.


SOG is great for commercial production. It is actually less work than vegging out a plant for 8 weeks and training. It's all about your style. Ppl who SCROG spend their time training. Ppl who SOG spend their time cloning. SOG gonna save the commercial grower a lot on power bill. Vegging cost 50% more than flowering. So when you gotta veg a plant for 8 weeks, it yields a lb. or you veg 16 plants for one week, they yield a lb. it cost you drastically less for the lb from 16 plants.


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## kytaez (Jul 9, 2015)

getting busted for 1 pant or for 16... some countries got different rules you know


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## Eloyd (Aug 11, 2015)

zack66 said:


> I just ran 9 plants in 5gl buckets in a 3x3 and harvested over a pound.[/QUOT
> Good afternoon I was wondering how much light u used for this grow


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