# Hempstar 3 Stage LED Grow



## dunit (Nov 21, 2010)

So everyone starts with a plan but good chance I'll adapt it along the way so anything I say can't be used against me if I change my mind  

I may have previous experience of about 10 years growing in buckets, flood and drain and dirt and always with HID's although always big on efficient power use so perfected my HID set up to run a three stage system to harvest every month and maximize power use, but I might be dilusional so don't hold me to that  

No matter what the reliablility of my previous claims are here's the current scenario. I have an RX for 24 plants and I'm in Western Canada. I am currently a little over on my plant numbers but less than 50 is a summary conviction (non-criminal) as long as its for personal use and I'm gonna thin the herd as soon as they show their true colors so unless I get kicked in the next two weeks I should be good. Famous last words  

So this is gonna be an LED GROW.

Comments are welcome but don't tell me what can or can't be done because the whole point of this is to figure that out.

I'd like to only say this ONLY ONCE pertaining to comments;

Within reason I don't give a rats about the higher startup cost of LED's over HID, talk to me in three years when you're on your 6th set of HID bulbs and need to buy another air conditioner  

I also don't care if LED only pulls THE EXACT SAME yeild watt for watt as HID. Even though I'm now an RX grower old habits die hard and not having to worry about heat signature or rf transmission minimizes the security risk. Whether it's cops or robbers it makes for a better nights sleep knowing you can't be identified and the door isn't coming in. I also ABSOLUTELY LOVE that I can leave my LED show unattended and not worry about fires, electrical shorts or a host of other concerns that come with having 240 volt wiring and bulbs that have a 1600 degree arc temp. Besides I'm a tech geek and they just look cool  

The kids were planted on Oct 31st and off to a bit of a slow start and experiencing some stretch for two reasons. 
1-Room temp was too low. 
2-Only have one 170W panel so light is too high and coverage is weak and waiting on my other two panels.

That being said the other two panels will be here this week and then we're off to the races. Either way they are healthy as hell and starting to take off.

Medium is a custom blend but easy to duplicate. 60% coco 20% perilite 20% commercial organic compost.

Nutes are gonna be simple. Good old GH with superthrive (said I was old school) and most likely some Monster Bloom at the end. 

So we are three weeks in veg and the last pic is actually from the day they were planted


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## dunit (Nov 21, 2010)

Okay haven't quite got the dowload sorting figured so first pic is day they were planted.


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## dunit (Nov 21, 2010)

For reference that's a 4x4 flood and drain table they are sitting in, those are 1 gallon pots and they will be transplanted to square 3 gallon pots in another 10-ish days.


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## growalater (Nov 21, 2010)

Looks badass man. Where did u get your lights at. I was thinking of using some LEDs with my hid.


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## mosh2metal (Nov 21, 2010)

looks good man, the strain is hempstar? what seed co is that? good luck with the LED's, not that you need it as LED's are simple as hell to use! and cool, and pink!


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## dunit (Nov 21, 2010)

I got my panel off www.ledgrowlightsdirect.com and buying something that expensive of a web-based company can be alarming but I emailed a bunch of companies and these guys could at least answer my tech questions and didn't just blow sales speak up my ass. Price was good. They use Bridgelux LED's which IMHO are a long standing manufacturer with a great rep in the commercial lighting industry (that I used to work in). Anyway, I didn't order all the panels I needed at once but once I got my panel and knew they were legit I ordered the others. Their customer service has certainly been decent and considering how big an area I'm covering with it, 4' x 4', it is outperforming what my 250MH did and probably close to the performance of my 400MH. Definately once I get two of these panels over that same area they will bury my 400MH for veg but the big issue I'm all over is flower.

For flower I'm looking for a 300-400W panel with all 3W Cree or Bridlelux LED's with 60 degree lens angle on the reds and blues and something with whites, UV's and at least two blue and two red spectrums covered so something about 9+ spectrum. Through my old commercial lighting contacts I've been talking with a tech at Bridelux who's been working with a company that's supposed to be on the verge of jumping into the market and launching what I'm looking for so I hope that happens before I have to bite the bullet. If I have to order the bigger panel off growlightsdirect it won't kill me but I'm kind of pumped if these new guys launch what they're supposed to.

Hempstar...lol guess I'm showing my age. I think it won or placed high in the Cannabis Cup in the late 90's. I think they call it Brainstorm now


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## sffog (Nov 22, 2010)

Nice looking grow and thanks for the tips on spider mites!


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Nov 22, 2010)

Nice LED choice! Looking forward to see how they crank em out for ya! Subbed


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## dunit (Nov 23, 2010)

Few update pics. Only one 170W panel on them. Will soon be three


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Nov 24, 2010)

That is still not too bad for 170 watts! Good coverage from that sucker!


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## daviaces (Nov 24, 2010)

yes im impressed ,vegging all those plants with just 170w 
good luck with your grow


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## dunit (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks! Yeah def impressed with the results so far for only 170W. Big leaves, thick stalks all the right stuff so far


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## dunit (Nov 27, 2010)

Well looks like I may have found my new flowering panels  Details to follow once I confirm


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## dunit (Nov 27, 2010)

Okay used my good camera with the remote flash so as to get some good quality white light so you can actually see the plants because the LED's light washes everything out.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Nov 28, 2010)

Can't wait to hear about the flowering panel...Props on the pics btw!


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## dunit (Nov 28, 2010)

Thanks amigo. The panels are supposed to be released for sale pretty soon and I've got some tech info on them but been asked not to publish it yet and trying to stay on their good side to see if I can get a couple panels comped


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## growalater (Nov 28, 2010)

Looking good on those plants man. Really good from one 170w. I might pick up one of those to add to my HID or just use it for clones.


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## dunit (Nov 28, 2010)

growalater said:


> Looking good on those plants man. Really good from one 170w. I might pick up one of those to add to my HID or just use it for clones.


One thing it seems everyone agrees on is that LED's are great for veg so I'd def recommend for seedlings. Just seems like the light is more gentle gentle and the plants are lush and deep green under them.


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## krozone (Nov 29, 2010)

Looking very good! All with the 1 170W. :> You noted above regarding seedlings and vegetative being great via LED, would you be good with 3 170w's?

I'm flowering (12/12 From Seed) Pineapple express and I am thus far (Just past 5 weeks) impressed with the growth thus far. 

Looking forward to seeing the results of your grow!


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## dunit (Nov 29, 2010)

The plan is actually to have 3 170's for veg and I'm just waiting on the other two to show up. Hoping to flower under 350W Panels and just getting that organized.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Nov 29, 2010)

gotta love a mystery!


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## Eric42O (Nov 29, 2010)

Amazing  nice looking LED grow  There looking pretty healthy too, good pics.


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## dunit (Nov 29, 2010)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> gotta love a mystery!


More drama than Jersey Shore 

Few more pics of the kids. Can't wait for the other two panels so I can drop the light


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## PakChild (Nov 29, 2010)

Hey looks good man, since you sound to have a pretty decent setup you shoulda did a lil contest of HID vs LED, I've been reading up more in LED I, my last grow was a very small grow with a 90w UFO, it did do great for veg but was very disappointed in the flowering stage, them came out real airy;fluffy. But I've been reading about Stealth Grow SG LED series models and they sound badass, only thing is they're $1500-$3500. But compared to all the equipment needed for HID due to heat issues, it sounds worth it, and sounds worth it for some of the buds I've seen on the internet, but not too many out there. What brand LED you using?


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## growalater (Nov 29, 2010)

Looking sexy man. Love the way they look under led.


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## dunit (Nov 29, 2010)

PakChild said:


> Hey looks good man, since you sound to have a pretty decent setup you shoulda did a lil contest of HID vs LED, I've been reading up more in LED I, my last grow was a very small grow with a 90w UFO, it did do great for veg but was very disappointed in the flowering stage, them came out real airy;fluffy. But I've been reading about Stealth Grow SG LED series models and they sound badass, only thing is they're $1500-$3500. But compared to all the equipment needed for HID due to heat issues, it sounds worth it, and sounds worth it for some of the buds I've seen on the internet, but not too many out there. What brand LED you using?


Yeah I've seem SG's stuff and it's impressive but the price is just too out of reach for most growers. They use CREE LED's and those things are wicked expensive so thats prob why. The panels I'm using now come from www.ledgrowlightsdirect.com and they use Bridgelux LED's which are great quality IMO but no where near the cost. SG also use a lot of 2W chipsets. I'm in the process of sourcing some new panels that use all 3W Bridglux chipsets that are gonna be around 350W of actual draw so comparable to SG602 but about half the cost. Hopefully it works out. Would love to run a side by side and it's on my list of things to do. The comparison I want to do is run two 350W panels against a 1000 HPS AND run one 350W panel against a 600 HPS. I think first I'm just gonna run a straight LED pull and dial in the nutes and temp and stuff cause I've got lots of experience with HID and not sure it would be a fair comparison to run my first LED pull against HID


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## mikelucid (Nov 29, 2010)

sub'd and +rep for using sine waves throughout your entire grow! im jealous bro


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## dunit (Nov 30, 2010)

mikelucid said:


> sub'd and +rep for using sine waves throughout your entire grow! im jealous bro


don't be jealous till I'm rollin my own dank goodness Thanks for the support


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## dunit (Dec 2, 2010)

More bud porn, okay well no buds yet but plant porn for sure 

Couple more big feeds and then trigger time for round 1


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Dec 2, 2010)

dunit said:


> More bud porn, okay well no buds yet but plant porn for sure
> 
> Couple more big feeds and then trigger time for round 1



Bud pedophilia? LOL


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## dunit (Dec 3, 2010)

Fingers crossed. Rest of the LED panels should be here today


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## dunit (Dec 7, 2010)

Freaking Christmas parcel season. Still waiting on my other two panels. In the mean time more bud porn. Gonna put them into bigger pots and give them a couple days to adjust and then trigger the first round so probably this weekend will goto 12/12


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Dec 7, 2010)

Fucking hell that is taking some time. Im getting anxious for you getting them, I can't even imagine how frustrating it must be for you. Tis the season. Hopefully you will have a magenta-ish Christmas.


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## dunit (Dec 10, 2010)

Went down to the postal office today and they've been sitting there for a week. Nice!


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## wake.n.bake (Dec 10, 2010)

Nice looking plants. Looking forward to seeing how your LEDs' work for you.


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## paulbooneyan (Dec 11, 2010)

hate when that happens!!! sweet grow man


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## dunit (Dec 16, 2010)

Well sorry for the big gap in updated. Laid out with the flu for a week 

Anyway fortunately the girls weren't waiting for me and they have been just flying. Way crowded rigtht now and certainly should have been spread out much earlier but I wasn't about to get out of bed.

Gonna repot into 3 gallon pots tonite, spread them out and let then trigger. Should put harvest end of January


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## stiffer (Dec 25, 2010)

nice looking forward to seeing the yields


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## Killed By A Whore (Dec 29, 2010)

any updates? ;D


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## dunit (Dec 29, 2010)

Okay people sorry for the huge lags in the space time continuum. Part of that can be blamed on illness, part on the "season" to have a house full of relatives and no time for leisurely gardening photo shoots and part for shovelling snow 

Anyway, we're back. The girls are absolutely taking off like freak shows and I'm loving it  I suspect that the co2 is helping as I just added that. Gonna re-pot tomorrow or friday into 3 gallon pots and I think we'll see a new launch in size from that. Gotta check out the bud sites already forming. One thing I will say is that the new medium I'm using (50% coco) gets so much aeration that the plants are drinking like I remember from hydro set-ups and having to water TWICE a day. Didn't realize they were going dry and actually noticed a little yellowing which is what started the investigation and now that they are on twice a day feedings they are rapidly greening up again. Whew!


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Dec 30, 2010)

Hot dog...almost feel off my stoner couch when I saw you posted...keep the news coming, looks awesome. Twice a day feedings? damn thats almost a job in itself. Looking forward to see if the 50% coco medium has a big difference in the outcome...


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## dunit (Dec 30, 2010)

I can tell you that the Coco is so porous and the addition of 10% perlite adds even more areation and now that they are established and I have the room temp nice and warm 85F they are growing damn near as fast as I've ever had in hydro.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Dec 30, 2010)

Nice, i gotta take that into consideration.


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## dunit (Jan 2, 2011)

Finally get to unveil my new lights 

So I was hunting for a while for lights around the 300W range that are ALL 3W LED's that I could actually afford. Theses are a brand new product and even their website is just getting finished up www.357led.com and I got the first production run  

The ones I ordered are called the 357 Magnum LED Grow Light and the company is GrowPerfect Technologies. They are the parent company for the panels I have been using for veg and the results of those were undeniable and this is their new flag ship so I have high hopes. 

IMPORTANT: So ALL the pictures I took in the room there is no other light source except the panels. Look how freaking bright it is in there. This is gonna be good  

The room is 10 ft by 13 ft so its a big room and the lights are currently hanging about 5ft off the floor because when the plants go in they are on a table about 3ft off the ground.

Will have plant pics posted this evening.


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## dunit (Jan 3, 2011)

So the girls are under the big lights and triggered. The two pics that show the plants quite green are with the flash on. The other four pics are all no light but the 357 Magnum Led's. I still have to get a bit more mylar for the wall and relocate my light hangers to get the lights further into the corner and push the plants closer to the mylar to get the most out of the reflective but you can certainly see the penetration already. In the pics from the top you can clearly see the coco medium lit up.


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## wake.n.bake (Jan 4, 2011)

looking really nice. Can't wait to see how those new LED's perform


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## dunit (Jan 4, 2011)

The new generations have sure come along way. I remember the first gen I got about four years ago which were half-watt LED's and I don't even know if they had lenses. Couldn't even veg past about 8" and that was with them right on top of the plants. My wife uses them now for her herb garden in winter


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## shovit (Jan 4, 2011)

sweet light, just looking at the pics blinds you 

By looking at the last pic u posted, is it a heatsink I'm spotting inside the unit?

Good luck with the grow, looks awesome!


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## stiffer (Jan 5, 2011)

the led's are looking great, how did you manage to find them?

Do you work for the led company Magnum?


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## dunit (Jan 5, 2011)

I'm pretty sure that all LED panels manufactured run heat sinks and fans as keeping the individual LED's from overheating is very important as their efficiency drops off if they heat up. I think they are very much like computers in that regard and all processors run heat sinks and dedicated fans.

@stiffer I am semi-retired and used to work for a company that made control panels for industrial applications so I've always been a bit of a techy and had some contacts in commercial electronics. I knew that I couldn't afford a pannel made with CREE Led's and decided to look for an all Bridgelux panel cause they've been around for a while and always served me well before, although it wasn't horticultural. Cutting through the bullshit advertising of the companies producing LED panels to figure out who actually makes what I want was proving difficult. Some companies are advertising 3watt chipsets but the small print is 3watt per 3led chipsets which is ad-speak for 1watt leds. Another company claimed to use Cree LED's but only their 2700K white LED's are actually CREE so more crap. I went backwards and contacted some old industry people at Bridgelux to see who was buying their horticultural LED's and they put me onto a company called GrowPerfect. That's the parent company of 357 Magnum. I don't work for them but they gave me a discount to try their product. I can say whatever I like about them and the only condition (which isn't even really a condition because it's not like we have a contract) is I have to provide them with some pictures that they will then have media rights too. I'm all about saving a few bucks so here we are


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## shovit (Jan 5, 2011)

There are some really greedy ass LED retailers that doesn't add a heatsink. They just add a flat piece of aluminium instead.

Just look at this junk:
http://img222.imageshack.us/i/despiece3chufy4.jpg/


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 5, 2011)

What company is that?? 

I just bought another blackstar (240W for 260 bucks)...I haven't installed it yet, I might just take a look under the hood and take a pic. 




shovit said:


> There are some really greedy ass LED retailers that doesn't add a heatsink. They just add a flat piece of aluminium instead.
> 
> Just look at this junk:
> http://img222.imageshack.us/i/despiece3chufy4.jpg/


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## dunit (Jan 5, 2011)

Wow! No heat sinks is way not cool! The efficiency of LED's drops off dramatically if they get too hot so the output would really get downgraded with no heat sinks. 

@Hudson kinda curious to see what power and spectrum LED's you are getting for that kind of money. I took a good look at Blackstar but heard lots of stuff about actual draw being more like 160W which means they are 2 Watt LED chipsets which makes a bit more sense for that kind of money. If you know an electrician with one of those clamp-ammeters then plug one in and check the amp draw. With 120V power if it is true 3W LED's it should draw just over 2 amps allowing for power supply and fans. I'm gonna guess that its gonna be more like 1.4 which means they are 2W chipsets. When I worked building industrial control panels we used to buy 10,000 LED's at a time and even the cheap white CREE Led's were still about $3 a piece and specialty spectrums went up to like $15 each even at that volume so just can't see how it's feasable to sell a panel with 80 3W Cree LED's for what I figure just the LED's cost alone. I've seen some manufacturers say their panels used 3W CREE led's and turned out that the white LED's they used to complete the spectrum were the only ones that were 3W Cree which worked out to like 5% of the total LED's. Wouldn't truth in advertising be refreshing 

Not trying to hate on Blackstar. I'm just confused at how they can sell a panel for less than it costs to buy the components even allowing for bulk discount. Guess if I get curious enough I may have to order one and check it out myself


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## dunit (Jan 5, 2011)

Okay so back to work. Man the ladies just seem to love these lights and I'm freaking impressed with the penetration. Would love to get my hands on a specialty light meter to test the watts per sq meter in the relevant spectrums. Can always dream 

A bunch of pics taken with no flash and an extra pic to show the propane powered CO2 generator, controller and scrubber (which isn't even on yet and probably wont need for a while).


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 6, 2011)

The one I just bought is a 2W set I believe, The 500W is 3W.

I just need the 240W for 3 weeks to keep my snow white alive, then I am tossing it with my metla halide for a flowering session. (im think LED + Halide may be the way to go) 



dunit said:


> Wow! No heat sinks is way not cool! The efficiency of LED's drops off dramatically if they get too hot so the output would really get downgraded with no heat sinks.
> 
> @Hudson kinda curious to see what power and spectrum LED's you are getting for that kind of money. I took a good look at Blackstar but heard lots of stuff about actual draw being more like 160W which means they are 2 Watt LED chipsets which makes a bit more sense for that kind of money. If you know an electrician with one of those clamp-ammeters then plug one in and check the amp draw. With 120V power if it is true 3W LED's it should draw just over 2 amps allowing for power supply and fans. I'm gonna guess that its gonna be more like 1.4 which means they are 2W chipsets. When I worked building industrial control panels we used to buy 10,000 LED's at a time and even the cheap white CREE Led's were still about $3 a piece and specialty spectrums went up to like $15 each even at that volume so just can't see how it's feasable to sell a panel with 80 3W Cree LED's for what I figure just the LED's cost alone. I've seen some manufacturers say their panels used 3W CREE led's and turned out that the white LED's they used to complete the spectrum were the only ones that were 3W Cree which worked out to like 5% of the total LED's. Wouldn't truth in advertising be refreshing
> 
> Not trying to hate on Blackstar. I'm just confused at how they can sell a panel for less than it costs to buy the components even allowing for bulk discount. Guess if I get curious enough I may have to order one and check it out myself


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 6, 2011)

Im not sure how they do it, I know a master electrician, i'm curious myself. 



Hudsonvalley82 said:


> The one I just bought is a 2W set I believe, The 500W is 3W.
> 
> I just need the 240W for 3 weeks to keep my snow white alive, then I am tossing it with my metla halide for a flowering session. (im think LED + Halide may be the way to go)


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## Devilspawn (Jan 6, 2011)

Very interested in how this goes- I'm frowing under two of their 90w ufos that project 120..First grow in a stealth Cool CAb. If flowering isnt going well with the ufos, looking at upgrade options...keep posting


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 6, 2011)

project 120???


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## dunit (Jan 6, 2011)

As in 120 degree lens angle?


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 6, 2011)

There you go. projection. Im dumb


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 6, 2011)

I thought voltage, and other shit


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## dunit (Jan 6, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> There you go. projection. Im dumb


Hey I dunno....I'm just guessing too. So ask your electrician buddy to bring over his clamp-ammeter (I think they all use them) and plud in your 240W Blackstar and see what it reads for amp draw.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 6, 2011)

Im going to crack it open and see what I can see tonight...pics tonight...I'll have the ammeter done by or over the weekend. I see him frequently enough. Im eager to see, im going to test my 240W and my 500W see where they fall.


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## rasputin71 (Jan 6, 2011)

dunit said:


> Hey I dunno....I'm just guessing too. So ask your electrician buddy to bring over his clamp-ammeter .......


I got one this summer for $20 shipped to my door, on ebay.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 6, 2011)

took pics...Blackstar has a solid metal heat sink (or a thick enough piece of sheet metal, about 1/4" not flimsy) That is sealed to the casing using what looks to be a silicon sealant. Thats about as far as I am willing to take it apart. I was hoping that plate would be mounted differently.


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## dunit (Jan 7, 2011)

The panels I have use actual heat sinks with the fins or ribs just like the ones for a computer processor. Much more surface area so much more cooling. I'll try to get some pics up for you.


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## Devilspawn (Jan 8, 2011)

sorry 120 degrees. growth so far of seedlings is impressive. 90w ufos are from sunlightsolutions. the 357 sounds interesting. how long did it take to get?


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## dunit (Jan 9, 2011)

Devilspawn said:


> sorry 120 degrees. growth so far of seedlings is impressive. 90w ufos are from sunlightsolutions. the 357 sounds interesting. how long did it take to get?


I've never done from seed but clones definately do really well under the LED's. I really do feel that the light is more tuned in for them and there is not nearly the radiating heat and UV and they don't get stressed. You will definately see the most lush green plants you've ever grown. With 120 degree lenses the coverage area spreads out very quickly as you get farther from the light so you need to keep them close. My ISIS panel I use for the clones is 90's and 120's and I personally find it is great for short plants but because of the lens angle it lacks penetration when the plants get taller. There is a guy on here LedBudGuy who just used the ISIS panels to do a confined space grow and he had his lights almost on top of the plants and his plants were only about a foot tall and he got great results. 762 grams from 850 watts.

My 357 was actually at the local post office 7 days after I ordered it but the post office didn't drop off a delivery notice so I didn't get it for another 3 days when I finally just went down there to check. Seeing as how that was in the Christmas Parcel craze I'd say that's pretty good time.


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## dunit (Jan 9, 2011)

Well here's the ladies doing great, just starting to see pre-flowers. Crazy healthy and huge leaves.


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## dunit (Jan 9, 2011)

dunit said:


> Well here's the ladies doing great, just starting to see pre-flowers. Crazy healthy and huge leaves.


Oh yeah and a sneak a peak at the next generation getting started. They were rough when I got em as it was an order for someone else who didn't pick em up so they sat around for a week but they are bouncing back fast under my ISIS 170. Purple Kush is gonna be the next run


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## Devilspawn (Jan 11, 2011)

They look to be thriving under those monsters. I added a 1600 lumen ( 23w) cfl yesterday to the box and moved things around a bit. Temps were running low ( 72) in a cool underground location so I thought adding a bit more light and heat wouldn't hurt. Temp now hovering around 78 so I think that did it. Humidity still at 35-35 rh Also bought a 60 w grow spot if I needed more heat but think its good now. Really interested in how ur bad boys 357s do with flowering before I order one. My widows are growing great with the two 90 w ufos, ( tons of roots hanging from pots- the carms are lagging ( re seeded two spots) and the freebie wild cards are slow as heck. Plated a few more and put them in the pots yesterday. Made a few mistakes as the roots came up and got cooked under lights. Tansfered the slow ones into my cloner/seeder chamber to see it hey ever do anything, just hoping the plate started seeds give me a few more options with this first hydro grow. pics will be up later in my post.


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## dunit (Jan 11, 2011)

@devilspawn what style of hydro you running? What title is your journal? cant find it but I'm not so good with the search function


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## Devilspawn (Jan 12, 2011)

Haven't converted my thread to journal yet but will today and post pics. Using the 14 pot system as supplied by sunlight solutions with my ready made cool cab. Has drip. Dogger and deep water roots are already into for the widows. No shortage of water.

Journal finally up with some pics. Widows are thriving


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## dunit (Jan 14, 2011)

Well another round of pics an pre-flowers are clearly visible. Plants are super healthy. Took one pic with the flash on to get a feel for the green in natural light. Also snapped a pic of the inside of the 357 to see the heat sinks. There is six fans in it.


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## LD25Delta9 (Jan 14, 2011)

Not trying to hijack, But this is one of the first true LED grows I've seen done right and I love it! In fact, I just ordered a .357 Magnum and can't wait to see the results. Thanks for giving me hard evidence to put my LED worries to rest.


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## dunit (Jan 14, 2011)

LD25Delta9 said:


> Not trying to hijack, But this is one of the first true LED grows I've seen done right and I love it! In fact, I just ordered a .357 Magnum and can't wait to see the results. Thanks for giving me hard evidence to put my LED worries to rest.


What style you gonna grow? The only thing I will say is that these lights are totally tailored for a person running a few tall plants. For sea of green or scrog I would go with the ISIS. These lights have huge penetration and it would be kind of a waste on short plants. If you wanna see an LED show done right you should check out the Confined Space Master Kush Grow that was just finnished a couple weeks ago by LedBudGuy. He used ISIS lights and it was very impressive


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## rasputin71 (Jan 14, 2011)

dunit said:


> What style you gonna grow? The only thing I will say is that these lights are totally tailored for a person running a few tall plants. For sea of green or scrog I would go with the ISIS. These lights have huge penetration and it would be kind of a waste on short plants. If you wanna see an LED show done right you should check out the Confined Space Master Kush Grow that was just finnished a couple weeks ago by LedBudGuy. He used ISIS lights and it was very impressive


You have 6 plants under each panel? What is the 'footprint' of each led panel, in your estimate, or in your room? 2'x3'? Yours are the first LED lights that actually look like 'bright light', so I am anxious to see the results in terms of height of plant, penetration, and yield.


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## LD25Delta9 (Jan 15, 2011)

I'll give you a short run down. When all three rooms are done I'll start a journal with pics. For now I'll be running 6 Power Plants in a 5x5 secret jardin room with 1 .357 magnum on a mover and a CAP ebb n flow with STG and all Advanced Nutes. I think with the PP's Size, this light will be perfect. Whaddaya think?


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## dunit (Jan 15, 2011)

I think "footprint" is easily one of the most misrepresented statistics in the lighting industry. I grew with HID for about 12 years and I remember the advertised "footprint" of a 1000W HPS was 10ft by 10ft but pretty sure that was for growing lettuce . Personally I found anything bigger than a 5 ft diameter circlular area, or about 20 sq ft, and the intensity wasn't there for a decent crop. My favourite light to grow with was 600's. Used to cover about 15 sq ft with them and get about 15% more yield per watt than running 1000's. I also used to run more of them and get lots of cross lighting which really helped. My old room design was based on 4x1000hps in a 10 ft by 10 ft room. Used to run two of them on a flip-flop. When I changed the rooms to run 6x600HPS my power use dropped 10%, 3600w per room vs 4000w, and my yield went up 5-6% so way more efficient. One of the things I love about LED's is that it's not a single pinpoint of light so there is less chance for shaded areas on the plants. 

So to actually answer your question. The 357 Magnum is covering the same area, and doing a better job, than my 600HPS. Time will tell but I have been messing with LED panels for about 2 years now and this one really has intensity like nothing I've seen. Right now there are 6 plants under each light but they are only just triggered and this strain will double in size so I will end up covering a much larger area near the end. I could cover at least 9 of the plants with one light right now but I need heat in the room and I am a big believer in interlacing or cross-lighting so I fired up both


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## dunit (Jan 15, 2011)

LD25Delta9 said:


> I'll give you a short run down. When all three rooms are done I'll start a journal with pics. For now I'll be running 6 Power Plants in a 5x5 secret jardin room with 1 .357 magnum on a mover and a CAP ebb n flow with STG and all Advanced Nutes. I think with the PP's Size, this light will be perfect. Whaddaya think?


Skip the light mover and just stick with simple GH nutes and with the money you save pick up a second 357 and pull down more bud 

Haven't tried Power Plant but was just researching it and sounds very interesting. I'll deff watch your journal.


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## LD25Delta9 (Jan 16, 2011)

I've been rockin' Advanced for a while now and already have them and I've already got the mover, too. I'm stoked to see your results! It'll kinda be like a lookin' into a crystal ball for me!


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## dunit (Jan 16, 2011)

Well here we are with another round. They are deff getting bigger and gonna repot tomorrow and probably go with 3 gallon pots. Tons of budsites showing. Will try to do a better pic set with some macro pics showing the budsites


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## dunit (Jan 17, 2011)

Well we are in day 14 of flower and just repotted. They should like the new casa and really fly. Deep lush green. Lots of bud sites. Raised the lights a bit as they are very intense and although no signs of bleaching the tops didn't want to take a chance.


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## rasputin71 (Jan 17, 2011)

How tall are the plants currently (above the soil) and how far above the tops are the lights now? Do you recall how tall they were on Day 1 of flower? What strain(s)?


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## dunit (Jan 17, 2011)

The strain is what we call Hempstar but apparently that an old name for it and the cool people call it Brainstorm now  

I'll measure them up tonite and I think I actually wrote down the heights when I flipped them so I'll look at my notebook which is over at the grow location.


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## medicine21 (Jan 18, 2011)

I've been doing Ebb n Flow, flood and drain with rockwool cubes, 4x1000w HPS with two 4x8' tables. Doing SOG with 36 plants under each 1000w in a 4x4' area for a total of 144 plants. Best harvest was 0.9g/W, Jack Herrer, 1 week veg, 11 week flower.

Looking to reduce power and switch to LED. It is indeed hard to weed through all the sales pitches of LED. Have a couple of questions I hope you can help me with.

1. I notice you are not covering much area with each 357. Looks like a 2x4' by each light? 

2. Which LED light I can realistically use to replace each of my 1000W HPS covered 4x4' 36 plant area?

3. Rockwool cubes have been tough NOT to overwater as they hold a lot. I imagine for LED this would be worse as cubes would not dry out as fast due to light heat. Any advice here?


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## dunit (Jan 18, 2011)

Couple questions:
1. Are you using co2?
2. How tall are your plants finnishing?

One of my good friends rocked tables for years and still swears by it. Seen two different systems that both dealt with the overwatering issue which can lead to crown rot. 

One used rockwool starter cubes and then put them in net pots filled with hydroton or clay pellets. These were then placed in a table of hydroton covered in coroplast with holes to hold the net pots.

The other involved using starter cubes which were then put in 4" cubes, but leave the starter cube sticking up about half way to maximize the drainage around the crown. The 4" cubes were put ON TOP of rockwool slab. This set up keeps the crown of the plant up well above the flood line and never seen that set up have crown rot.

So back to your questions. 

I have my lights only 12" off the plants but they can easily be placed at 18" and still get great penetration. I only have to cover a small area until my girls get big and I'll expand the light coverage as I need. These lights will easily get great penetration over a 4 by 3 area with decent sized plants.

I want to run a table with 3 357's over it. I figure that would actually over-light the area but I bet the cross lighting would give wicked penetration and production and for sure wouldn't have any heat issues. Just watched a grow in a 4' high crawl space that was 4' wide and 12 feet long. 850watts of LED and his temps never got above 85F with no cooling.

If you are running shorter plants, looking at the results LedBudGuy got with those ISIS 170's those might be the ticket as they seem to penetrate 18" plants quite effectively.


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## dunit (Jan 18, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> How tall are the plants currently (above the soil) and how far above the tops are the lights now? Do you recall how tall they were on Day 1 of flower? What strain(s)?


So they averaged 13" on trigger day. They are now averaging 18" and the lights are 12" off the top of the plants


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## dunit (Jan 18, 2011)

Took some different angles to show the penetration.


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## medicine21 (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks for the info, dunit.

I run CO2 propane burner at 1200ppm and plants finish around 3' tall.

I also contacted the 357Mag guys and was recommended to cover a 4'x8' table with three of them. I was told this would outperform my 2x1000W which cover this area currently. That would be 2000W reduced to 1071, almost half. 

As for the medium I am thinking replacing the rockwool cubes with Fytocell in pots, flood and draining, like Al B Fuct.


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## dunit (Jan 19, 2011)

Something to keep in mind also is that LED's don't actually draw the rated wattage. Has something to do with as you approach the wattage threshold for an individual LED it gets less efficient at producing light so they basically underdrive them. For example Stealth Grow's 602 actually draws 350Watts. If I had to hazzard a guess I'd say the 357 probably draws 200watts so in actuality you would only be using 600W to replace 2000. The only drawback of LED's, if you can call it that, is that they hardly produce any heat. I am using two 357 over a 4 by 4 area (which is definately overkill and I'm gonna expand to at leat 4 by 6 next grow) and a propane burner for CO2 in a fully sealed and insulated room and I have to use a small space heater to keep the temps up. I am on a concrete floor and if I threw down a sub-floor I could probably lose the space heater. Sure is different from the old days runnign 4 1000w HPS's and needed 12,000 btu's of air conditioning 

If I was growing in a cooler climate and heat was an issue I might look at running one 1000wHPS in the center of the table and a 357 on either side which would still be a power savings of about 600W and would probably keep the room a balmy temp. Just an idea if you are looking to expand in stages.


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## dunit (Jan 19, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Thanks for the info, dunit.
> 
> I run CO2 propane burner at 1200ppm and plants finish around 3' tall.
> 
> ...


Forgot to ask, your 3ft plants, are they foliage and bud to the bottom or do you train or trim them to keep the production focused near the top?


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## kush groove (Jan 19, 2011)

looks nice dunit......I am impressed


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## medicine21 (Jan 19, 2011)

dunit said:


> Forgot to ask, your 3ft plants, are they foliage and bud to the bottom or do you train or trim them to keep the production focused near the top?


I trim the bottom 3rd of the plant, but I still get a thick canopy with a bit of lower branches in each 4x4 36 plant area.



dunit said:


> Something to keep in mind also is that LED's don't actually draw the rated wattage. Has something to do with as you approach the wattage threshold for an individual LED it gets less efficient at producing light so they basically underdrive them. For example Stealth Grow's 602 actually draws 350Watts. If I had to hazzard a guess I'd say the 357 probably draws 200watts so in actuality you would only be using 600W to replace 2000. The only drawback of LED's, if you can call it that, is that they hardly produce any heat. I am using two 357 over a 4 by 4 area (which is definately overkill and I'm gonna expand to at leat 4 by 6 next grow) and a propane burner for CO2 in a fully sealed and insulated room and I have to use a small space heater to keep the temps up. I am on a concrete floor and if I threw down a sub-floor I could probably lose the space heater. Sure is different from the old days runnign 4 1000w HPS's and needed 12,000 btu's of air conditioning
> 
> If I was growing in a cooler climate and heat was an issue I might look at running one 1000wHPS in the center of the table and a 357 on either side which would still be a power savings of about 600W and would probably keep the room a balmy temp. Just an idea if you are looking to expand in stages.


Interesting, I will ask the 357mag guys what is the actual average wattage draw on this light and post here. Keeping the HPS idea is good, but I do want to cut wattage as much as possible. My electricity company now offers a "service" of checking annual consumption of ANY address online.


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## dunit (Jan 19, 2011)

kush groove said:


> looks nice dunit......I am impressed


Thanks bro


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## dunit (Jan 19, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I trim the bottom 3rd of the plant, but I still get a thick canopy with a bit of lower branches in each 4x4 36 plant area.
> 
> 
> 
> Interesting, I will ask the 357mag guys what is the actual average wattage draw on this light and post here. Keeping the HPS idea is good, but I do want to cut wattage as much as possible. My electricity company now offers a "service" of checking annual consumption of ANY address online.


Wow that's quite the service....so much for privacy! I'm all over the full convert to LED's but if you get stuck looking to add a heater and waste power then why not stick with the good old heater that actually throws some light aka 1000W HPS..lol. 

So your 3 ft plants actually have about 2 ft of foliage/production height and these 357's will blast through that. LedBudGuy ran with ISIS 170's and got great results from plants that were only about 18" tall but all the way to the bottom so those lights might work too if you are looking at all the options.


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## medicine21 (Jan 19, 2011)

dunit said:


> I'm all over the full convert to LED's but if you get stuck looking to add a heater and waste power then why not stick with the good old heater that actually throws some light aka 1000W HPS..lol.


That does make sense, however it would not resolve my night time temp being too low, if that should happen. Although I guess that can come down to 18-20 Celcius at night without issues.

Got a response from 357Mag guys. The actual draw of the Magnum is 180W, so you were pretty close in your estimate. That is pretty incredible when compared to 1000W HPS lights and if claims are correct 3x357Mag > 2x1000W, or 540W LED outperform 2000W HPS.


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## Devilspawn (Jan 19, 2011)

Did u look at the Blackstar 3w leds that they put out for 2011? Looks like they may be competitive and cheaper that the 357. My 2 90W ufo are vegging the hell out of my grow but all these posts have me convinced they will not do it for flower. Looks like I will end of with 6 strong plants in this grow, maybe 7- 4 widows ( fem), 2 carmelicious( yet to be sexed) and one wild card- maybe- may not be big enough when I go to flower in a week or two. Need to get cracking on figuring it out and orderin the light-its only in a grow cab-planst may get to 3-4 feet in there 36 x 18- says can grow to 56" with my leds and cloner on shelf above


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## rasputin71 (Jan 19, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> That does make sense, however it would not resolve my night time temp being too low, if that should happen. Although I guess that can come down to 18-20 Celcius at night without issues.
> 
> Got a response from 357Mag guys. The actual draw of the Magnum is 180W, so you were pretty close in your estimate. That is pretty incredible when compared to 1000W HPS lights and if claims are correct 3x357Mag > 2x1000W, or 540W LED outperform 2000W HPS.


I hope I get a BIG tax refund......


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## dunit (Jan 19, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> That does make sense, however it would not resolve my night time temp being too low, if that should happen. Although I guess that can come down to 18-20 Celcius at night without issues.
> 
> Got a response from 357Mag guys. The actual draw of the Magnum is 180W, so you were pretty close in your estimate. That is pretty incredible when compared to 1000W HPS lights and if claims are correct 3x357Mag > 2x1000W, or 540W LED outperform 2000W HPS.


Well from a light spectrum scale those ratios make sense. If you look at the output of a 1000w hps the peak, and something like 75% of their output, is in the yellow/orange spectrum that the plants can't use. If you could eliminate that waste then you could accomplish the same thing on 25% of the power. That is supposed to be LED's claim to fame and I guess I'll find out in about 6 weeks


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## dunit (Jan 19, 2011)

Devilspawn said:


> Did u look at the Blackstar 3w leds that they put out for 2011? Looks like they may be competitive and cheaper that the 357. My 2 90W ufo are vegging the hell out of my grow but all these posts have me convinced they will not do it for flower. Looks like I will end of with 6 strong plants in this grow, maybe 7- 4 widows ( fem), 2 carmelicious( yet to be sexed) and one wild card- maybe- may not be big enough when I go to flower in a week or two. Need to get cracking on figuring it out and orderin the light-its only in a grow cab-planst may get to 3-4 feet in there 36 x 18- says can grow to 56" with my leds and cloner on shelf above


Which Blackstar is that? Wish they had a website so a guy could actually check out their products. Tall plants in such a small area, make sure you get something with a flatter lens angle. I'd look for 60 degree if you could find it but definately no more than 90 to keep the footprint small and get wicked penetration.


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## Spuzzum (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey dunit, I got a question for you..

You say the unit has Bridgelux, and I see on their homepage that they say they're as good as Cree's, but a lot less than Cree's. Fair enough, but I'm kinda confused on something, and please don't take this a a bash, but.. Bridgelux, according to their website, only make blue and white.. unless I'm missing something. So how does the Magnum cover 11 wavelengths?

Their site has 3 pdf's.. and all 3 have the same wavelengths, so this is a sample..
http://www.bridgelux.com/products/ledchips.html



```
Dominant Power Bin C Power Bin D Power Bin E

Wavelength (240  255 mW) (255  295 mW) (295  340 mW)

445 to 447.5nm BXCA4545445-Cy-z BXCA4545445-Dy-z BXCA4545445-Ey-z
447.5 to 450nm BXCA4545447-Cy-z BXCA4545447-Dy-z BXCA4545447-Ey-z
450 to 452.5nm BXCA4545450-Cy-z BXCA4545450-Dy-z BXCA4545450-Ey-z
452.5 to 455nm BXCA4545452-Cy-z BXCA4545452-Dy-z BXCA4545452-Ey-z
455 to 457.5nm BXCA4545455-Cy-z BXCA4545455-Dy-z BXCA4545455-Ey-z
457.5 to 460nm BXCA4545457-Cy-z BXCA4545457-Dy-z BXCA4545457-Ey-z
460 to 462.5nm BXCA4545460-Cy-z BXCA4545460-Dy-z BXCA4545460-Ey-z
462.5 to 465nm BXCA4545462-Cy-z BXCA4545462-Dy-z BXCA4545462-Ey-z
```
From that I see 445nm to a maximum of 465nm.


Their whites cover 3000K, 4100K, and 5600K
http://www.bridgelux.com/products/ledarray_sourceguide.html


And while doing a search, I came across something on candlepowerforums, where a guy was asking about 3-chip 3watt diodes from Bridgelux, used in some grow lights.. he was told those were counterfits from China. They also said Bridgelux only makes blue, green, and white.
http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?t=285317


So, I'm confused. Are they really Bridgelux, or are they cheap Chinese knock-offs? A quick google for "red bridgelux 3w", or just plain ol' "bridgelux 3 watt" pops up alibaba and other China importers.

Please tell me I'm just reading this wrong...


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## Devilspawn (Jan 20, 2011)

http://www.gothamhydroponics.com/grow-lights/gotham-hydro-led-grow-lights/blackstar-240w-led-grow-light-3w-cree.html

Its a 240 W panel, ( Gen 7?) supposedly using 3W crees with mix of 60 and 120 degree for optimal penetration with 11 spectra but mostly the reds- I'm sure you can read their page. Says it will cover 4-6 sq ft and at $260 per looks a bit cheaper than the 357. May give it a shot and see what happens. Will probably keep UFos going too.

About to change the res out today. Flushing right now with reskleen Looks like I'm getting either Potasium def or nute burn with this trouble I have been having keeping pH down. Seeing tips browning on lower leaves and some spottting. I have been spraying with res water so that might have done it too. PPM is up to 1500 with all the damn pH down I have had to add with a little tap in the mix from my softener. Going to a 40ppm mix of DI and Poland Springs this am. Have it sitting and waiting to go at pH 5.8. Will add 400 pmm of the famous moon dust and 200 ppm of B-52 and see how they do. Have gotten some algea in tank and on starter plugs. Pulled all my non- starters and will cover up the unused pots with foil to block light in res- water isnt green though so I take that as a plus- just on sides on tank. Still on a 24 hr veg and my widows are thriving as are the two carms under the two 90w ufos.


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## Devilspawn (Jan 20, 2011)

CAll me impatient- just ordered one and should be here in a day or two. Will keep track of your 357 grow and let you know how this goes as well. Can always try a 357 next grow if it doesnt work. Did track my latest seed order from Nirvana and they should be here today.....


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## ledbudguy (Jan 20, 2011)

Devilspawn said:


> http://www.gothamhydroponics.com/grow-lights/gotham-hydro-led-grow-lights/blackstar-240w-led-grow-light-3w-cree.html
> 
> Its a 240 W panel, ( Gen 7?) supposedly using 3W crees with mix of 60 and 120 degree for optimal penetration with 11 spectra but mostly the reds- I'm sure you can read their page. Says it will cover 4-6 sq ft and at $260 per looks a bit cheaper than the 357. May give it a shot and see what happens. Will probably keep UFos going too.
> 
> About to change the res out today. Flushing right now with reskleen Looks like I'm getting either Potasium def or nute burn with this trouble I have been having keeping pH down. Seeing tips browning on lower leaves and some spottting. I have been spraying with res water so that might have done it too. PPM is up to 1500 with all the damn pH down I have had to add with a little tap in the mix from my softener. Going to a 40ppm mix of DI and Poland Springs this am. Have it sitting and waiting to go at pH 5.8. Will add 400 pmm of the famous moon dust and 200 ppm of B-52 and see how they do. Have gotten some algea in tank and on starter plugs. Pulled all my non- starters and will cover up the unused pots with foil to block light in res- water isnt green though so I take that as a plus- just on sides on tank. Still on a 24 hr veg and my widows are thriving as are the two carms under the two 90w ufos.


Key word here is "supposedly"... IMHO... I personally think that these 357s will kick the fuck out of that blackstar shit. If the blackstar shills in this thread had any balls whatsoever they would send this dunit character one of these units to do a side by side. Surely a company of such prestige as blackstar can dish out a few hundred on what would prove to be the best / cheapest advertising buy ever! Don't hold your breath dunit...


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## rasputin71 (Jan 20, 2011)

I hope these 357 blow me away. A 600w hps ballast, hood, and bulb would cost me at least $350, and i will need at least 2 of them for my new flower box. I plan to do lst/ccob so I only need 2 or 3 feet of penetration. That is 1200w for $700. 3 of the 357 will cost me more like $2k to cover the same 3.5'x7' area, but it will probably draw half the power and i wont need to air-cool the hoods, or vent the room, so I can go with co2.


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## Spuzzum (Jan 20, 2011)

I'd rather have the panel with true Cree's than a panel with fake Bridgelux.. as long as those aren't fake Cree's as well .

But the blackstar does use a true Cree UV.. yet they advertise as 380nm, even though it's 395-405nm.
http://theledguy.chainreactionweb.com/product_info.php?products_id=673


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## medicine21 (Jan 20, 2011)

Spuzzum said:


> So, I'm confused. Are they really Bridgelux, or are they cheap Chinese knock-offs? A quick google for "red bridgelux 3w", or just plain ol' "bridgelux 3 watt" pops up alibaba and other China importers.
> 
> Please tell me I'm just reading this wrong...


If we are lucky we will have a representative from 357Mag on this thread in the next couple of days, addressing just these types of questions.


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## Devilspawn (Jan 20, 2011)

Not shilling at all dude- just asking if anyone has really looked ta them- I'm on my first grow with a cool cab with two 90 w ufos and everyone here has me convinced flowering will not be that great although veg is pretty awsome so far other than my screw ups with nutes. With only 4.5 sq ft, I don't know i the 357 is overkill- If I had a bigger cab, I wouldn't think twice. Seeing these blackstars have 3w crees makes me hopefull- will see. Will post in my journal as the grow progresses and following Dunit to see if the 357 is getting it done.


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## ledbudguy (Jan 20, 2011)

Devilspawn said:


> Not shilling at all dude- just asking if anyone has really looked ta them- I'm on my first grow with a cool cab with two 90 w ufos and everyone here has me convinced flowering will not be that great although veg is pretty awsome so far other than my screw ups with nutes. With only 4.5 sq ft, I don't know i the 357 is overkill- If I had a bigger cab, I wouldn't think twice. Seeing these blackstars have 3w crees makes me hopefull- will see. Will post in my journal as the grow progresses and following Dunit to see if the 357 is getting it done.


I can tell you right now that they don't have 3w crees at that price. Hudsonvalley already took one apart and they dont even have a proper heat sink. I'd run an ISIS in your cab (or one similar proven light), I basically ran 4.8 12" plants per light in a 3ft high grow area and pulled down over 5 zips per light. I'd say something around the 170w area will do you just fne.


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

Devilspawn said:


> Not shilling at all dude- just asking if anyone has really looked ta them- I'm on my first grow with a cool cab with two 90 w ufos and everyone here has me convinced flowering will not be that great although veg is pretty awsome so far other than my screw ups with nutes. With only 4.5 sq ft, I don't know i the 357 is overkill- If I had a bigger cab, I wouldn't think twice. Seeing these blackstars have 3w crees makes me hopefull- will see. Will post in my journal as the grow progresses and following Dunit to see if the 357 is getting it done.




I wouldn't say you're a schill....lol. I think LedBudGuy was having a bad day  I followed his first grow journal and the guy can grow and it was his journal,combined with my own research, that got me to call GrowPerfect and that's how I got my 357's. The internet sucks because there's always some keyboard cowboy looking to discredit you and I noticed on his thread that he quickly stopped answering a lot of questions that were trying to cast doubt on his progress. In the end the numbers were impressive and at this point if I found out his lights came from Bangladesh and the substrate was actually chewed by sweat shop children......they worked and worked really well and that's what I'm most interested in. My lights come from the same company so I'm hoping for great results also.


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

@ Spuzzum I kind of appreciate the research because I basically did the same thing when looking into Blackstar. If something doesn't add up at first glance you look into it a bit more. When I was in commercial electronics we had lots of stuff built-to-order that wasn't available on a manufacturers product list so that could be part of it and I sent an email to GrowPerfect to inquire so I'll keep you posted.

I know if you go on Bridglux.com and look at their LED Arrays and download any of their PDF product data sheets, flip through to the spectrum graph (pg 15 on the ES series and pg 13 on all others) it shows their warm white arrays have two peaks, one at about 450nm and one at about 630nm and they cover a lot of ground in between. Of course this is impossible to do if they only product blue spectrum LED's so they obviously make other chipsets and just not sure why those aren't listed.


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## Spuzzum (Jan 20, 2011)

Flowering under led's is pretty impressive actually.. tighter buds, with waaaay more crystal. 

This video's from a mod at thcfarmer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCXhj0iP0Mc

Here's the thread to go with it:
http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f8/theherbalizors-penetrator-345w-test-23349/


And this garden's from someone else at same site:
http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f137/led-lights-good-4-a-29184/














Yet again, 1 more from same site:
http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f6/irish-boys-480w-720w-grow-led-hydro-land-clovers-28169/
































And here's what a measly 60 watts can do:
http://www.ledgrow.eu/


























Looking at those pics, I can't see how anyone can doubt "if" they'll actually produce. Pictures are worth a thousand words....


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## Spuzzum (Jan 20, 2011)

dunit said:


> @ Spuzzum I kind of appreciate the research because I basically did the same thing when looking into Blackstar. If something doesn't add up at first glance you look into it a bit more. When I was in commercial electronics we had lots of stuff built-to-order that wasn't available on a manufacturers product list so that could be part of it and I sent an email to GrowPerfect to inquire so I'll keep you posted.
> 
> I know if you go on Bridglux.com and look at their LED Arrays and download any of their PDF product data sheets, flip through to the spectrum graph (pg 15 on the ES series and pg 13 on all others) it shows their warm white arrays have two peaks, one at about 450nm and one at about 630nm and they cover a lot of ground in between. Of course this is impossible to do if they only product blue spectrum LED's so they obviously make other chipsets and just not sure why those aren't listed.


I wouldn't say "impossible"... white led's "start" with blue. Can't get white without the blue.

So what their doing is just using mixed whites? Like cfl/fluoro growers? I've looked at the data sheets, and all I saw was blue.. and white. Even the "helion" or whatever they make.. only whites:
http://www.helieon.com/specifications.html

And if you look at digikey.com, again.. Bridgelux only makes whites:
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/DkSearch/dksus.dll?site=us&lang=en&v=976&c=8&WT.z_supplier_id=976&WT.z_page_type=SP&WT.z_page_sub_type=SS&WT.z_oss_type=Category&chp=0


The guys at candlepowerforums are quite knowledgeable in these high powered led's.. a lot more than us smokers/growers, so I'd tend to take their word when they say Bridgelux doesn't make coloured led's.

Something sounds fishy...... 




cheers........ Spuzzum


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

Spuzzum said:


> I wouldn't say "impossible"... white led's "start" with blue. Can't get white without the blue.
> So what their doing is just using mixed whites? Like cfl/fluoro growers? I've looked at the data sheets, and all I saw was blue.. and white. Even the "helion" or whatever they make.. only whites:
> http://www.helieon.com/specifications.html
> And if you look at digikey.com, again.. Bridgelux only makes whites:
> ...


Its not impossible to produce cool white light starting with blue but it is impossible to produce warm white light. 

White LED light is usually produced by taking blue led's and yellow phosphor and the light from the LED excites the phosphor and it emits yellow light. The combination produces white light but the light spectrum is limited to anything blue to yellow and in between so it can only produce cool light because no combination of blue and yellow will produce Orange or Red. Red light is beyond the yellow spectrum so impossible to produce in that situation. To produce warm white light a housing will contain mutliple diodes of different spectrums in combinations of blue, green, yellow and red to produce the overall light color desired. There has to be red diodes to get the spectrum to output above 590nm so even though neither of us can find a specific part number for it, Bridgelux is obviously making a red diode somewhere in the mix because the output of their warm white lights peaks about 630 which also happens to be the peak of the mysterious Red Bridgelux LED's that I supposedly have  

Also your Digikey search only produced Power Modules and not individual LED's and in fact Digi-key doesn't carry any Bridgelux LED's, only their Power Modules. I was just doing some research and that was the first place I went too also. I was suprised they don't carry Bridgelux LED's at all but I think that more and more manufacturers are just using their own websites to direct wholesale and cut out the middle men. I also think that when a retailer custom orders a product they lock down the supplier so people can't buy their custom configuration direct or wholesale. When I bought my Procyons, the CREE's that Procyon was using weren't available on Digikey. I know because I tried to build my own panel


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## Spuzzum (Jan 20, 2011)

From my reading, it's the phosphorous that makes it reddish. And as for digikey not having the Cree's.. yeah.. building my own as well, and digikey didn't have much. Ledsupply.com had a better selection.
http://ledsupply.com/led-catalog.php


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

Spuzzum said:


> Flowering under led's is pretty impressive actually.. tighter buds, with waaaay more crystal.
> 
> Looking at those pics, I can't see how anyone can doubt "if" they'll actually produce. Pictures are worth a thousand words.


I think this was directed at the comment by Devilspawn about hearing bad things about LED's in flower.

I think he has good reason to be concerned because that has always been the issue with LED's in the past. Awesome veg....but light airy buds that shrink down to nothing when they dry. I've had it happen myself with some of the older LED's I tried and I think the biggest issues is being realistic about coverage. I don't think it matters if you have 2x90Watt UFO's a 240 Blackstar or a 170 ISIS. If you are trying to cover a 4 ft by 4ft area with any of those combos it's not going to be enough PAR (light used by the plants) to produce dense bud.

Too many manufacturers overstate their claim and if you talk to them the claims get even more outrageous. I think to cover a 4ft by 4ft area you better have at least 350 watts of hi-power LED's. There was a guy, I think on my thread, who asked about covering a 4x8 table and was told by GrowPerfect to use 3x 357's. I think that's very realistic.


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## Spuzzum (Jan 20, 2011)

I just emailed sales at Bridgelux and asked straight up.. "do you make coloured led's?"

Will let you know as soon as they reply.


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

Spuzzum said:


> I just emailed sales at Bridgelux and asked straight up.. "do you make coloured led's?"
> 
> Will let you know as soon as they reply.


Haha! I did the same thing more or less. I asked if their warm whites used mutliple diodes of different colors to get the red spectrum or how they get output past yellow.


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

Further to my comments about wattage and LED power to get coverage. LENS ANGLE IS ALSO CRITICAL. Here's a link to a post I made about lens angle. Basically its the trigonometry showing how at the same height a 550W panel can put half the light to the plant of a 260W panel if the lens angle is too wide.

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/240615-led-users-unite-post5193096.html#post5193096

When I bought my 357 I wanted to find a hi-power panel with small lens angle. Not 100% but pretty sure my 357 is 60 degrees. The only other panel in the running was the Penetrator 345 but it was $400 more than my 357 and I couldn't determine if it even had IR or UV which are important for mold suppression and stress to induce flowering.


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## Devilspawn (Jan 20, 2011)

I did email Victor, the guy selling the Blackstar to me- itshiped so woill let you know what it looks like..He says the chips are al 3 w in this model and "
Thanks for your order and your question. Yes, the LEDs are all 3w in this light, we do not carry lights that are a combination of both, it's either all 1w, all 2w or all 3w. With this light you're guaranteed the best penetration. I'm actually surprised there are "mixed" review out there on this light, lol, shouldn't be anything but good. This is a very impressive light, the important thing to keep in mind is the coverage area - 3x2 (6sf) as long as you stick to these numbers you should be happy with the results produced." 
Vic
So Vic is on the hook- I am close enough to pay a visit...lol


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 20, 2011)

Its a fine light, I have a couple of them...either on their own or with HID you can't go wrong.



Devilspawn said:


> I did email Victor, the guy selling the Blackstar to me- itshiped so woill let you know what it looks like..He says the chips are al 3 w in this model and "
> Thanks for your order and your question. Yes, the LEDs are all 3w in this light, we do not carry lights that are a combination of both, it's either all 1w, all 2w or all 3w. With this light you're guaranteed the best penetration. I'm actually surprised there are "mixed" review out there on this light, lol, shouldn't be anything but good. This is a very impressive light, the important thing to keep in mind is the coverage area - 3x2 (6sf) as long as you stick to these numbers you should be happy with the results produced."
> Vic
> So Vic is on the hook- I am close enough to pay a visit...lol


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

Well gents I wish you many happy grows with your LED's. Maybe I should clear the air because I've ripped on Blackstar. If I had $250 to buy a light, I'd consider Blackstar and I have never made any comments that they wouldn't work, only that I wish they were straight up about their marketing. The only person I've heard do a full grow with them hasn't weighed in yet but figures he got 2.5 to 3 oz off a 240W Blackstar. I think it was his first grow and not like it was a failure or anything but hard to say what their potential is and quite frankly I'm hoping to pull way more grams per watt....but wouldn't we all like to  They seem to be a cheap light and produce smokable bud and that's not a bad thing  

Would really like to get a bunch of people together all running different manufacturers of LED's, pick a common strain, pick a common medium and have a grow off and see what pulls what. I know there is lots of room for error and differences and it wouldn't exactly be an unbiased, double-blind, independantly monitored...blah...blah....blah.....but who cares. Beats just bitching from behind our keyboards 

Hudson, you got access to Super Lemon Haze? I'm gonna track that down for my next grow so if anyone wants to jump in the game get looking.....lol


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

We got buds....holy dyna.....little buds everywhere.....and check out the trichomes on these baby buds.

This is day 17 of flower.

Took a pic with the flash on to get a feel for how green the plants are under natural light


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## medicine21 (Jan 20, 2011)

Nice pics! Lookin real good.


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## dunit (Jan 20, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Nice pics! Lookin real good.


Thanks bud, I feel the same way but I might be biased


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## dunit (Jan 21, 2011)

Just picked up some Liquid Cool Bloom to help in flower....anyone tried this?


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## Rhyma (Jan 21, 2011)

So how many watts total u have and ur room is 4x4 right? i m going with 4x 240w LEDs for my 4x4 tent..


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 21, 2011)

That will be freaking awesome



Rhyma said:


> So how many watts total u have and ur room is 4x4 right? i m going with 4x 240w LEDs for my 4x4 tent..


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## Rhyma (Jan 21, 2011)

yeah i rekon so.. going to hav 2 4x4 tents! going to have mother plants, take clone and stick in a aero propagater untill rooted under a t5 then move to a areoflo in the flowering tent under the 1k of led.. my only question atm is how many clones do i do u think? i was thinking tring to fit a 20 and 10 aeroflo units in so i fill the whole floor space... Trying to just run a cycle so i harvest every 9 weeks!


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## Devilspawn (Jan 21, 2011)

The blackstar did show up- 80 lights- bright as hell when I plugged it in. If I take the back off,any wayto confirm they are indeed the Cree chips? EE not my thing-but am dangerous with a screw driver. I stayed on the chemical side...lol I'll post pics in my journal once I have it in the cab and up and going.


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## Spuzzum (Jan 21, 2011)

Well, sales rep never returned my email..

But when looking at the Bridgelux site, there's a "buy on-line" link.. Digi-Key, Farnell, and Newark. Already know what Digi-Key has, and Farnell was by country.. so chose Newark:

http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=401+500003+1001181&Ntk=PLS_MAN_BRAND_NAME&Ntt=BRIDGELUX&Ntx=

*Cool White
Natural White
Warm White*


Either they're using all whites, whites and blues.. or counterfits without knowing it. And if they are all whites, well.. not false advertising, as their site doesn't actually mention what colours or wavelengths they do cover.. just that it's 11 wavelengths, and that *"in addition some white light and UV light has been generally considered to be beneficial to overall plant health (the UV spectrum prevents mould growth)."*

http://357magled.3dcartstores.com/grow_marijuana_LED.html

So, "if" they are using just whites, or whites and blues.. and it works.. then why is everyone obsessed with coloured led's?

Curious, as I'm building my own, and want to know which way to go


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Jan 21, 2011)

I tried, it ends up the electrical LED components are sealed in with silicon (i suppose) sealant. There is a pretty sturdy piece of what I suppose is aluminum that acts for heat dissipation I suppose, although I find it difficult to feel any significant difference in the exhaust air's temperature compared to grow room temp. There is a screw on the side that has been filled with epoxy to keep most from opening the casing. I loosened it with a pair of good pliers if you are so intent on opening it. I can promise that nothing immediately telling is on the inside.


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## dunit (Jan 21, 2011)

I don't think I'd pull it apart and risk f'ing up your light. Hudson took some pics of his apart and was very hard to see much except that there was no heat sink and there's some debate about whether that matters or not. LED's actually run fairly cool as long as they're not being overdriven so who knows! 

At this point I'm of the "shut up and dance" opinion...lol. Let's put them over plants and see what happens.

As for the question about coverage. One 357 easily covers a 3 by 4 ft area and I bought two as I was planning on covering a 6 by 4ft area. The issue I have is that the strain I am running doesn't stretch much when triggered apparently. Also I didn't repot into larger pots to generate a large root structure and a bigger plant before flowering so I don't think my garden will end up that big so I am overlighting right now. Probably won't give me great grams per watt but no turning back now 

My next round is Purple Kush and I know that strain well so will get it dialed in a bit better in the mean time I'll run the wheels off this one


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## rasputin71 (Jan 21, 2011)

dunit said:


> ......
> 
> As for the question about coverage. One 357 easily covers a 3 by 4 ft area and I bought two as I was planning on covering a 6 by 4ft area. .....


I saw the post/email about 3 being ideal for a 4'x8'. My flower box plans are 3.5' x 7'. Do you think 2 would be sufficient for 3.5'x7' then? Or 3 just to be sure I get good coverage/overlap? I suppose I could always do 2 now and 1 later, if I feel it is inadequate.


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## Spuzzum (Jan 21, 2011)

dunit said:


> I don't think I'd pull it apart and risk f'ing up your light. Hudson took some pics of his apart and was very hard to see much except that there was no heat sink and there's some debate about whether that matters or not. LED's actually run fairly cool as long as they're not being overdriven so who knows!



If you have any electronics experience at all, you won't fuck up your light just by opening it up. Warrantee is gone, but you won't fuck it up.

There's absolutely no debate about it... these damn led's get hot! I just got my 660nm's today.. tested with batteries, and burned my damn finger.. after ONLY 1 minute!
















If you want your led's to last the 50,000 hours, or whatever they're rated for... *use a heatsink.* Telling people "it doesn't matter" is bad advice. And if your panel has 3w diodes.. a hell of a lot more heat with 700mA than at 350mA that my 1w units use.

If you want to learn about these high powered led's, then listen to the community who have a few more years experience with them than us growers.

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1587273


Even the guy at ledgrow.eu uses a metal panel to mount his stars.. that acts as a heatsink. 



Cheers 

Spuzzum


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## dunit (Jan 21, 2011)

Spuzzum said:


> If you have any electronics experience at all, you won't fuck up your light just by opening it up. Warrantee is gone, but you won't fuck it up.
> 
> There's absolutely no debate about it... these damn led's get hot! I just got my 660nm's today.. tested with batteries, and burned my damn finger.. after ONLY 1 minute!
> 
> ...


Holy f Spuzzum....thank you...thank you. Everytime I mention that heat sinks are there for a reason I get slaughtered by the Blackstar boys....lol

Who make your 660nm's? Don't tell me its CREE


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## dunit (Jan 21, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> I saw the post/email about 3 being ideal for a 4'x8'. My flower box plans are 3.5' x 7'. Do you think 2 would be sufficient for 3.5'x7' then? Or 3 just to be sure I get good coverage/overlap? I suppose I could always do 2 now and 1 later, if I feel it is inadequate.


I would bet you'd be happy as hell with 2 over 3.5 by 7. For sure you would get more weight running three but there is the law of diminishing returns and you would probably get more yield just running the third one over its own grow area. Remember that these units use 60 degree lenses to get the good penetration but it means you have to hang them a bit higher to get the footprint. I'm at 12" and I think I'm risking bleaching with the intensity at the top of the plant and I think 15-18" is gonna be the sweet spot.


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## rasputin71 (Jan 21, 2011)

dunit said:


> I would bet you'd be happy as hell with 2 over 3.5 by 7. For sure you would get more weight running three but there is the law of diminishing returns and you would probably get more yield just running the third one over its own grow area. Remember that these units use 60 degree lenses to get the good penetration but it means you have to hang them a bit higher to get the footprint. I'm at 12" and I think I'm risking bleaching with the intensity at the top of the plant and I think 15-18" is gonna be the sweet spot.


Sweet, 2 of them sounds a lot more affordable than 3, if I go this/led route.


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## dunit (Jan 21, 2011)

Spuzzum said:


> So, "if" they are using just whites, or whites and blues.. and it works.. then why is everyone obsessed with coloured led's?
> 
> Curious, as I'm building my own, and want to know which way to go


I think the point of LED's is to focus on the spectrums of light absorbed by Chlorophyll A & B which is pretty much only the blue and red portions of the spectrum. White light contains all the colors and thus there is an element of waste. I'm not a scientist by any stretch but I believe that's the idea.

HPS is actually more efficient at producing light than LED's but a large amount of their output is in the range not used by plants so their PAR efficiency (light used in photosynthesis) is lower. If you used LED's that produced the same spectrum as HID you'd be using a less efficient light producer and a less efficient light so a double whammy.


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## Spuzzum (Jan 22, 2011)

dunit said:


> Holy f Spuzzum....thank you...thank you. Everytime I mention that heat sinks are there for a reason I get slaughtered by the Blackstar boys....lol
> 
> Who make your 660nm's? Don't tell me its CREE


I got them from China..
http://stores.ebay.com/Louis-Electronic-Parts/Electronic-Components-/_i.html?_nkw=660nm&submit=Search&_fsub=2018248014&_sid=905094954

Cheap, but I couldn't justify $10 a pop for LedEngin's
http://canada.newark.com/ledengin/lz1-10r205/led-high-brightness-red-5w/dp/16P3132
http://ca.mouser.com/Search/m_ProductDetail.aspx?qs=TaOZSEYtRiWYl34IA%2b%2b49Q==

Especially when LedEngin states that they are 5w.. though they don't tell you that's at *absolute maximum ratings.* They usually label these things by the "typical" values, not the maximum. So, when you buy an led that states "5w".. well, you'd think you'd still be able to raise it a bit. But if they're labeling at the "maximum".. anything more and your bulb's going to die.
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/LZ1-00R205_Datasheet.pdf

LedEngin also has the 735nm InfraReds, but the same ratings.. and you need to order 223 of them at a time.. at $7.30 each!:
http://canada.newark.com/ledengin/lz1-10r305/led-high-brightness-red-5w/dp/32R7951

But this guy has some coming in February.. $7 each for 1w units:
http://www.nanotuners.com/product_info.php?cPath=74&products_id=694


As for optics... anytime you put a piece of plastic or glass in front of your light.. be it an air-cooled hood, a cool-tube, or a lens in this case.. you lose lumens and intensity. Best to just buy led's with 60 or 80 degree angle to begin with. .. Unless you just use mirrored reflectors.. $7 each. The guy at ledgrow.eu "had" the lenses, and chose to go without.. these are the reflectors he's still using though.. $7 each






http://www.ledgrow.eu/diy.html


If you look at the pattern of a Cree XR-E.. the ones I'm going to buy, they're pretty much in the 60 to 80 degree range already. Yes, they're rated at 100 degrees.. but look at how far a distance that is before it "flares" to 100 degrees. And then think at how close these dealers are telling us we need to keep the panels to our plants.. what.. 8" to 10", right? It would seem the Cree's are in that range at that distance.






These are the guys I'm going to buy from for my led's:
http://ledsupply.com/


Lastly.. all I can say about dealers..

Not to say that Blackstar, or any other company, is a scammer.. but the marijuana business in general, has always been full of scammers. And for a company that you deal with over the internet, newspaper, magazine, or any other form of "business" that's not "face to face in an actual store/building".. you're taking your chances. So what if they have a 3 year "guarantee".. will they actually still be around in 3 years? Or are they the same "run and gun" type of scammers that told us 1/4 watt 5mm led panels were the future.... 

Even if the dealer says Cree, and even if you open the panel and the stars say "Cree".. doesn't mean it's really a Cree.. counterfeits galore in China.. the home of the manufacturers of these panels. They may be North American company, but a lot of them still get them made "in China".

That's why I'm building my own.. at least I know what the fuck's inside. 


Cheers man.... 


Spuzzum


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## dunit (Jan 22, 2011)

Well when you get it built I am totally subing that grow. Kudos for doing it homegrown. I looked into building but I guess I had enough of building electronics in my lifetime  I really like the idea of those reflectors instead of lenses, I mean why give up 10-15% of your light. 

The internet sure can be sketchy but face to face doesn't exactly cut it anymore either. I have a friend who works at a grow store and they carry LED's but they've been told straight up by the owner to discredit LED's and talk people into HID because their jobs rely on repeat business and bulb sales are big money.

When I phoned 357 the guy was obviously a grower and a Canadian and according to Michael Moorer Canadians aren't out to get anyone so I must be safe 

Anyway somewhere in this thread I'm supposed to grow some plants with some LED's. Whether they are top grade made by good old red-white and blue blooded unionized North Americans, or second class electronics from those same Asians who brough us crap like Sony and Toshiba.....I guess only time will tell


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## dunit (Jan 22, 2011)

Day 19 of flower......bud production is well established. Plants are looking very healthy and a couple pics with the flash on to show that.


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## D.Gotti (Jan 24, 2011)

Beautiful girls! Great work!


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## dunit (Jan 25, 2011)

D.Gotti said:


> Beautiful girls! Great work!


Thank you kindly!


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## Spuzzum (Jan 25, 2011)

dunit said:


> When I phoned 357 the guy was obviously a grower and a Canadian and according to Michael Moorer Canadians aren't out to get anyone so I must be safe


They're my neighbours 


Nice garden bro! Looking niiice. I see temps at 83.3F and ppm meter.. you using co2? What was the ambient temp before the lights? I'm thinking of co2 myself, using a 20oz paint gun cannister.

I'm jealous, and can't wait 'til mine's built so I can play too!  But I think I need to rethink mine.. turns out Cree's are really 3w'ers.. not 1w'ers. Well.. 2.5w actually.

Can't wait to see what you end up with. 


Cheers......


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## IAmKrazy2 (Jan 25, 2011)

looking good, + rep and sub'd.


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## dunit (Jan 26, 2011)

Day 23 of flower. Gotta get picks up a little more regularly. It's a bit late in the flower period to trim but I'm gonna get rid of some of the salad on the bottom tonite and post pics of that tomorrow.

Well if I dont have CO2 and I'm at 1100 ppm I'm breathing awful hard...lol

CO2 is propane burner. CO2 is set at 1100 and varies between 1000-1200

Room temp with the lights off drops to 70-75 depending on the outside temp right now which varies between -25C and 5C.......Alberta weather


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## shaggy2dope (Jan 26, 2011)

Nice! Hope mine is as good as yours. Keep up the awsome job.


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## dunit (Jan 26, 2011)

shaggy2dope said:


> Nice! Hope mine is as good as yours. Keep up the awsome job.


Thanks! Was gonna give them a trim job on the lower parts but letting them run au naturel to see how the popcorn turns out and to see how well these lights penetrate.


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## surgedup (Jan 26, 2011)

From the looks of it dunit it seems those lights are penetrating the hell out of that lower growth so it will be very interesting to see how that popcorn turns out man! good job bro cant wait till harvest!!!


dunit said:


> Thanks! Was gonna give them a trim job on the lower parts but letting them run au naturel to see how the popcorn turns out and to see how well these lights penetrate.


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## dunit (Jan 27, 2011)

Yeah it's sure gonna be interesting....was just over checking out Irishboys journal and he's about a week ahead of me in the same sized area and running double my power in LED's so it will be interesting to see how big a difference that makes. I thought I was a bit overkill on lights but apparently I'm no where near....lol


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## dunit (Jan 27, 2011)

Think for ease of comparison I'm gonna try to make my first three pics in every set be from the same perspective. Would be good for time lapse later.


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## mad dog bark (Jan 28, 2011)

Hello chaps newbie here. Am very interested in the mag grow lights myself. Any ideas who makes there leds if they bridgelux dont make all the colours themselfs. Also are they currently out proforming your older led panel in flowering. Also wood you say they live up to there hype? Like i said only just signed up here so havent been able to see ya picts. But followed this journal month or so. Am also very confused by claims online that 3w leds dont increase penetration to the 1w leds. Read one watts best then hear 3 wats better. Wood like to no if any1 tested a 3w led and 3 1w leds c which penetrates distance better. Anderstand that 3 1watts are more bright but does that mean light travels further. My english brain aches with these questions. Any ways cool journel matey good luck with it. If anybody can help me please do so


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## mad dog bark (Jan 28, 2011)

Sorry i ment to ask do they live up to there hype? I wasnt meaning to make a statement.


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## mad dog bark (Jan 28, 2011)

me again. sorry be a pain in mids off your grow dunit. wanted to say i almost brought a mag 357 month or so back but i was put of cos they use 3w leds. I have read alot about leds and most info i get is 1w leds best fo growing smokeable herb. I no 3 w leds are brighter then a 1w led but i also hear 3 1w leds are brighter like wise. this makes sense to me but where i get lost- is there any prove that 3w leds carrys light further then 3 1w leds. if so can u send me a thread please. If 3 w leds do penetrate herbs better then why are the companys making these units not showing say 2 300w panels one with 3w leds and 1 with 1w leds side by side growing tall herbs showing final outcome i.e final dry weight, thc . and size n thickness of bud. if this was done using tall plants you could or should be able to see the difference in penetrating by the lower buds. but all ive seen are srog or scog set ups which are used so penetrating not big issue. I mean i dont no i am new to this but does anyboby no the truth to these things i said. i just wanna no asap so can buy led and get started but be convident with the light i pick and its tech.


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## mad dog bark (Jan 28, 2011)

oh and forgot to make test fair the two led panels wood have to have same led maker i.e cree or bridgelux also same lens and same height of tops plants and the sane band and spec, i guess???????? anyone out there done this or seen it? wood answer alot my hang ups. only difference should be led wats i.e 1w or 3w and guess that the 1w led unit wood have 3/1 more leds.


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## rasputin71 (Jan 28, 2011)

You can edit your first post for up to 3 days, instead of posting 4 times in a row.


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## ledbudguy (Jan 28, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> me again. sorry be a pain in mids off your grow dunit. wanted to say i almost brought a mag 357 month or so back but i was put of cos they use 3w leds. I have read alot about leds and most info i get is 1w leds best fo growing smokeable herb. I no 3 w leds are brighter then a 1w led but i also hear 3 1w leds are brighter like wise. this makes sense to me but where i get lost- is there any prove that 3w leds carrys light further then 3 1w leds. if so can u send me a thread please. If 3 w leds do penetrate herbs better then why are the companys making these units not showing say 2 300w panels one with 3w leds and 1 with 1w leds side by side growing tall herbs showing final outcome i.e final dry weight, thc . and size n thickness of bud. if this was done using tall plants you could or should be able to see the difference in penetrating by the lower buds. but all ive seen are srog or scog set ups which are used so penetrating not big issue. I mean i dont no i am new to this but does anyboby no the truth to these things i said. i just wanna no asap so can buy led and get started but be convident with the light i pick and its tech.


Bottom line, you need 3w leds for penetration in order to produce dense bud. You will end up with airy bud if you use just 1w no matter how many of them you have. Check out my first LED grow using leds that have a combination of 1w and 3w LEDs. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/378470-confined-space-850w-led-master.html


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## medicine21 (Jan 28, 2011)

If 3w LED is better than 1w, can we assume 5w is better than 3w? Here's one panel with some claimed 5w: http://blackdogled.com/products.html Anybody see any grow journals with Blackdog LED's used?


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## ledbudguy (Jan 28, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> If 3w LED is better than 1w, can we assume 5w is better than 3w? Here's one panel with some claimed 5w: http://blackdogled.com/products.html Anybody see any grow journals with Blackdog LED's used?


From what I've been told by the ISIS guys they have a new fixture that they are developing that has 15w diodes, so I guess 3w is better than 1w and 5w is better than 3w and 15w is better than 5w, etc., etc.... From what I gather the LED business is about to take over the grow light marketplace and that is why you are seeing soooooooo many company reps in these forums trying to discredit each other. Bottom line is this; this technology is changing really effen fast right now, I'd compare it to the invention of the pentium processor... so you can expect new revisions and models popping out like madd over the next 12 - 24 months. There will be a bunch of low grade chinese knock offs flooding the market as in any emerging product and these forums will be inundated with scammers trying to sell us all cheap shit. Plain and simple, do some research, ask questions and most important watch what people who are actually using the product are reporting and make an educated decision based on results not bullshit and hype!


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## medicine21 (Jan 28, 2011)

I agree that the LED grow light market is filled with BS. However, there is compelling evidence, such as presented by yourself, ledbudguy, that the technology can work. So then what should we look for when choosing a light:

1. Higher Wattage for diodes. Today 3w+
2. More spectrums. Today 11 spectrums
3. Enough total wattage to cover your core area. This is the tough one, since manufacturer claims here vary significantly. Ex. ISIS FX-3 coverage is 100 sq feet. A 100, really? I wouldn't want to waste all that light outside my 4x8 area...
4. Lens angle. 60deg or 90deg??

The rule of thumb for HID lights is 50W/sq foot. Can we even come up with one for LED, since the wattage can be spread through a large surface area on the panel itself, where as HID has a concentrated source of power?


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## ledbudguy (Jan 28, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I agree that the LED grow light market is filled with BS. However, there is compelling evidence, such as presented by yourself, ledbudguy, that the technology can work. So then what should we look for when choosing a light:
> 
> 1. Higher Wattage for diodes. Today 3w+
> 2. More spectrums. Today 11 spectrums
> ...


I agree that the coverage area is highly exaggrated by all of the manufacturers... in my instance, I would feel comfortable reporting that the ISIS-1 that I am using is good for 4-6 plants of average height. I'm pretty sure they have the spectrum figured out at this point in the game, although we can probably expect to see developments in the area of mold supression and insect repelling...

To answer the questions, I would say that...

1. Absolutely don't buy anything that doesnt have at least 3w diodes in the flowering spectrums
2. I think that the 11 spectrum is probably better than the 5 spectrum that I am running because I know for sure that the 5 spectrums produce wicked bud
3. You see here all the fixtures that the companies are selling are all based on the same configuration of diodes, the only thing that I can see that changes is the size of the case. I would'nt expect that FX3 to realistically cover more than 20 sq ft if you are growing weed. Bottom line, more wattage doesnt mean more coverage, coverage is determined by lens angle which takes us to the next question...
4. If you are growing lettuce I would go with 120 degree lenses, in our case marijuana I would stick to 60 - 80 degrees of lense angle. That said, I have figured out something cool with the interlacing of the spectrums of different angled diodes. The interlacing of certain spectrums appears to have a pretty amazing effect!!! I'm trying to put together some cash and maybe get one of these manufacturers to donate some gear for research so that I can set up what I believe will be the grow room of the future.

Like I said before, don't believe the hype until you see it first hand from many independent sources... Any dickhead out there can say he has the best grow light, and until it's proven it just bullshit!


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## medicine21 (Jan 28, 2011)

ledbudguy said:


> The interlacing of certain spectrums appears to have a pretty amazing effect!!! I'm trying to put together some cash and maybe get one of these manufacturers to donate some gear for research so that I can set up what I believe will be the grow room of the future.


Does your theory support the idea that covering a 4x8', for example, with 3x180W LED is better than 1x540 LED?


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## ledbudguy (Jan 28, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Does your theory support the idea that covering a 4x8', for example, with 3x180W LED is better than 1x540 LED?


without a doubt! That said, obviously the less power of the diodes the less result you can expect but interlacing the spectrums has a massive effect on the outcome! I am going to venture to guess that based on what I have stumbled upon that there is going to be a formula that is going to come out of all of this that will allow you to calculate based on total area how many different sized fixtures with varying lens angles that you will need to create the perfect growing environment both light wise and temperature wise. I highly doubt that there will be need for more that 2 different configurations of panels, one as the main source of lighting and a secondary source for interlacing 

I am going to set up a new room hopefully by the end of march where I am going to prove this theory!


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## tony1960 (Jan 28, 2011)

I'm also a user of LED's from start to finish. For the flowering phase it is very important to have enough "deep red" or "infrared" in order to convert the flowering hormone from inactive to active. Also, I recommend LED farmers use a good light mover, slow model, so that fewer of the expensive units are necessary.
Good luck!!


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## medicine21 (Jan 28, 2011)

ledbudguy said:


> without a doubt! That said, obviously the less power of the diodes the less result you can expect but interlacing the spectrums has a massive effect on the outcome! I am going to venture to guess that based on what I have stumbled upon that there is going to be a formula that is going to come out of all of this that will allow you to calculate based on total area how many different sized fixtures with varying lens angles that you will need to create the perfect growing environment both light wise and temperature wise. I highly doubt that there will be need for more that 2 different configurations of panels, one as the main source of lighting and a secondary source for interlacing
> 
> I am going to set up a new room hopefully by the end of march where I am going to prove this theory!


that's very interesting! I'll look for that grow journal.

What do you mean by: "temperature wise"? How much heat do these lights really give off compared to HID, for example?


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## mad dog bark (Jan 28, 2011)

cheers for call out rasputing. excuse my poor editing and grammer. this is all new to me i normally lurk in the dark in forums and try pick up tips. but alot you guys seem know ya stuff and have prior grows under belts. yeah led bud guy i saw ya journel was intersting fella. I think infact that how i found this grow from dunit. cheers medicine top info. oh and will keep an eye out for led bud guy next grow. laters all.


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## dunit (Jan 28, 2011)

Wow! Lots of chat in the last day while I was busy. LedBudGuy thanks for jumping in. In terms of my opinion I won't bother to write a ton because LBG pretty much nailed it. 3W are totally needed. 1W panels just don't get the penetration. Even 2W aren't as good. I think that the ONLY limit on LED's in the past has been that the wattage on the individual diodes is just not enough to penetrate. I'm sure we will see bigger and better things in the very near future but for now 3W are king of the hill. 

Far red and IR play an important role, as does UV and IR. From my research I would say that 7 spectrums is the minimum and with the spectrum shift under even mild temp increases that you need to "shoulder" the Chlorophyll A & B peak spectrums which puts you at 11. Just my opinion.

Anyway, back on the farm.....in two days the bud production has just exploded. Started running liquid cool bloom so maybe that helped.

Feast your eyes


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## mad dog bark (Jan 28, 2011)

wow yeah them mags look amazing. plants stunning. looks like alot of bud sites there. sorry to push but wot lense the mag use.? i have sent few e mails to the company but still waiting on reply. how far along are the girls? I know its early days but from wot you see now wot are your expectations on final yield? another question for you from wot you see now is how many large plants could a single mag handle and flower well.


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## dunit (Jan 28, 2011)

The 357 Magum uses 60 degree lenses. That was why I went with it. I think that the other big confusion (other than wattage) with LED's is lens angle. A 90 degree lens will provide 43% less intensity than a 60 degree lens. That's basically Kessils claim to fame. 

The sharper the lens angle the more intense the light but the smaller the coverage area which is why Kessil only covers such a small area. I'm guessing that there are other panels in the 357 class that will cover a larger area but the intensity just wont be there to penetrate bigger plants.

I'm limited by plant numbers so I'm looking for penetration.

In terms of yeild....I'd like to hit a pound and right now it looks doable. On 360 watts total actual draw would be impressive so we'll see how I do. I hate estimating and as though some well established and sponsored growers like Irishboy got just over that using twice the power and a $2000 light I'm probably frickin dreaming .....but what the hell......aim high


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## dunit (Jan 28, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> wow yeah them mags look amazing. plants stunning. looks like alot of bud sites there. sorry to push but wot lense the mag use.? i have sent few e mails to the company but still waiting on reply. how far along are the girls? I know its early days but from wot you see now wot are your expectations on final yield? another question for you from wot you see now is how many large plants could a single mag handle and flower well.


Today was day 25 of flower. 

How big a plant are we talking?

To answer another question you had directed at LedBudGuy....when he was talking ideal temperature, I firmly believe that a huge part of his success what that his confined space kept the room temp up. I think he was running 83-85F. A lot of exclusive LED grows (unless they are in warm climates) have trouble maintaining adequate temperature for rapid plant growth and that needs to be addressed to get decent numbers.


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## medicine21 (Jan 29, 2011)

dunit said:


> In terms of yeild....I'd like to hit a pound and right now it looks doable. On 360 watts total actual draw would be impressive so we'll see how I do. I hate estimating and as though some well established and sponsored growers like Irishboy got just over that using twice the power and a $2000 light I'm probably frickin dreaming .....but what the hell......aim high


I think you can hit 1-1.5lb or I would hope. You have a 4x4' area covered with 2x357Mag right? If Mag claims are correct and 2x357Mag > 1000W, and I've seen 1.5-2lb come from a 4x4 under 1000W doing SOG, flood and drain with a 10 day veg period, I hope you can get close to that.


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## dunit (Jan 29, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I think you can hit 1-1.5lb or I would hope. You have a 4x4' area covered with 2x357Mag right? If Mag claims are correct and 2x357Mag > 1000W, and I've seen 1.5-2lb come from a 4x4 under 1000W doing SOG, flood and drain with a 10 day veg period, I hope you can get close to that.


Yeah I'd like to think I can hit those numbers but quite honestly I don't look at manufacturers claims so much as what other people have done with similar set ups and try to keep it as realistic as possible. This has been a learning process and one of the things I've realized is that you need to look at the ACTUAL draw of your panel and be realistic. I've got lots of learning to do and when I cut down this time and see what the bud density and maturity is like to the bottom of the plants it will give me an idea of what to try next time and keep improving. 

So for now I'm leaving the manufacturers claims out of it and just see who's actually putting up numbers so try to set myself a goal. Irish boy and Setting Sun are the long time guru's at LED and they've never hit 1gram per watt (I don't think) but come close. 

If you look at all the grow journal, LedBudGuy with his ISIS panels is the highest I have found. His panels are 170's but the actually draw 120 watts so if you calculate his actual draw of 5 panels its 600watts and his yield was 762 grams so almost 1.3 grams per watt. 

Using that as a benchmark, my panels draw 180 each so 360 for the pair I would pull pretty much bang on a pound if I hit his numbers. He has set the bar and that's what I am trying for right now....so wish me luck


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## mad dog bark (Jan 29, 2011)

how do. I think wot i was getting at dunit was if you had 3 4 foot monsters growing wood the light hit the bottom bud. but reading on its a premature question as early days with your lights and early flowring stage for your girls. guessing maybe 5 wat leds min for big plants but then if you get good results mayb 3w enough. doesnt the isis have mxied 3 and 1 w leds? doe you use carbon dioxide during both veg and flower? does it make a large difference on final yield and quality? if you use in a sealed area without running a carb filter how else or wot else could you use to get rid of smells? thank you on the led angle. couldnt find that info anywhere. oh yeah and on one your resent pics it looks like one ya girls got 3 big colas or heads. is that a trick off the eye and it 3 plants in a row or you done some topping or wotever the term is. still they look good fella good work. bet your glad with how healthy they are.


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## dunit (Jan 29, 2011)

So day 26 of flower. Quick pics before I go shovel more snow.


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## dunit (Jan 29, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> how do. I think wot i was getting at dunit was if you had 3 4 foot monsters growing wood the light hit the bottom bud. but reading on its a premature question as early days with your lights and early flowring stage for your girls. guessing maybe 5 wat leds min for big plants but then if you get good results mayb 3w enough. doesnt the isis have mxied 3 and 1 w leds? doe you use carbon dioxide during both veg and flower? does it make a large difference on final yield and quality? if you use in a sealed area without running a carb filter how else or wot else could you use to get rid of smells? thank you on the led angle. couldnt find that info anywhere. oh yeah and on one your resent pics it looks like one ya girls got 3 big colas or heads. is that a trick off the eye and it 3 plants in a row or you done some topping or wotever the term is. still they look good fella good work. bet your glad with how healthy they are.


I didn't top or FIM or do any pruning. Some of the plants look like they have multiple top colas but thats just lower branching that grew up close to the height of the top. Thats just how they grew. As far as 3 of 4 ft monsters, I don't know. These ladies are gonna top out around 2 ft unfortunately as I was hoping for a taller plant but they hardly stretched in flower. I've got Purple Kush vegging under an ISIS for the next round and I'm gonna run them taller I think. Will see how hard the lower buds on these plants are and make a judgement call then.


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## mad dog bark (Jan 30, 2011)

so wot you thinking next round another week or two in veg for increase in height?or do you think its more to do with that strain and how it grows?


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## dunit (Jan 30, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> so wot you thinking next round another week or two in veg for increase in height?or do you think its more to do with that strain and how it grows?


I ran this strain years ago and its just not a big plant unless you veg forever and even then it doesn't take off much in flower. It was good for tables. I used to run a strain (10 years ago) called Purple Death and it used to explode to about 3 times the size it was triggered at. I used to trigger it at 18" and end up with 4 1/2 foot plants. 

I know the PK will double so will trigger at about 18".

I think in the end LED's require a different style of growing than HID and unless you are side lighting too you can't run monsters (4-6 ft) but hoping to dial it into where I can run 3 footers.


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## mad dog bark (Jan 30, 2011)

wot you run to get rid of odours. or as all legit is odour not a worry? carbon filters the norm i no but with low heat with leds i can c carbon filters not the wisest of options. i think from last two sets of photos the bud sites swelling up nice and that is only few days apart. well that impression i got from the single head shots.


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## ledbudguy (Jan 30, 2011)

dunit said:


> So day 26 of flower. Quick pics before I go shovel more snow.


Lookin good man, I can't wait to see that popcorn connect and explode with frosty goodness!


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## mad dog bark (Jan 30, 2011)

my part of the world things v different. no medical grows, no med cards. little insight few months back a grandmother got raided for having a heated hutch in garage for pet rabbit. its bloody cold here most time. another insight a nigerian diploment got raided in london for having central heating slighty higher then the normal. for these examples i can c leds taking over the market in some places.as well as electric costs. i myself am just a researcher of sorts and advise nobody to break any legislations. but then saying that nothing wrong with gaining knowledge. thats a right we all have.


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## dunit (Jan 30, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> wot you run to get rid of odours. or as all legit is odour not a worry? carbon filters the norm i no but with low heat with leds i can c carbon filters not the wisest of options. i think from last two sets of photos the bud sites swelling up nice and that is only few days apart. well that impression i got from the single head shots.


I run a large carbon filter with a small cfm fan. I don't go anywhere near the max fan cfm recommended. The longer the air takes to pass over the carbon the more smell gets eliminated. I'm legal but I run like I'm not. It's the best way to avoid problems.


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## medicine21 (Jan 31, 2011)

dunit said:


> Using that as a benchmark, my panels draw 180 each so 360 for the pair I would pull pretty much bang on a pound if I hit his numbers. He has set the bar and that's what I am trying for right now....so wish me luck


I think you are being realistic and conservative with those numbers and I do wish you luck to hit them.  I have now got 2 sets of numbers one from 357Mag guys and the other from the parent company, who also BTW recommended 3 Mags to cover a 4x8' table over the ISIS lights. They both claim 1.4 g/W in their grows, however the parent company specified that those numbers are arrived at using 357W, NOT 180W. To be explicit, the actual claimed manufacturer numbers are 1.4g per 357W. So all else being equal (and perfect), which it never is of course, the high end estimate for a single Mag is 500g or about 1lb per light.


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## ledbudguy (Jan 31, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I think you are being realistic and conservative with those numbers and I do wish you luck to hit them.  I have now got 2 sets of numbers one from 357Mag guys and the other from the parent company, who also BTW recommended 3 Mags to cover a 4x8' table over the ISIS lights. They both claim 1.4 g/W in their grows, however the parent company specified that those numbers are arrived at using 357W, NOT 180W. To be explicit, the actual claimed manufacturer numbers are 1.4g per 357W. So all else being equal (and perfect), which it never is of course, the high end estimate for a single Mag is 500g or about 1lb per light.


I'd agree with that based on the number that I personally pulled using the isis1's. In my first LED grow I got 27 oz's and 6g's so just shy of a gram per watt for the 850w I was running (and I'm a noob). I'm not sure what the actual draw is on the lights I never checked that out. When you take into consideration that my plants were around 12" tall on average the haul is actually pretty amazing. I am sure that in my current grow I will mow down 40+ oz's running 1020w 6 x 170w. If I get the 1.4 oz's per watt I will shit my pants! Who knows though, this is only my 2nd go at it with led and I'm sold.

I think that they may be wrong in telling you to go with 357 fixtures. I would go with the isis-fx1 simply because you get 2 fixtures with the same power diodes in flower nm's for the price of one 357. I can tell you no shit from experience that the more of these fixtures you have the better, same as the 3 600w is better than 2 1000w in HID rule. There is some scientific shit happening to the plants in between my fixtures as they are growing way faster than the plants directly below the lights. Say you ran 10 of the 170's over your table (i'm assuming that you are running around 20" - 24" plants), divide the table in 2' x 8' sections for spacing and run one fixture on center width ways every 1.6 feet, I'm sure you would kill the production of running 3 1000's on that same table at the pound per light rule. Now if the actual draw is half like you read on rui the numbers are un-fucking-real!!! My current grow I have doubled everything, plants will finish at 23" pots are up from 2 gal to 3.5 gal and I'm running co2 through the entire grow and regulating the humidity now at 40%. Based on what I know about growing I could effectively double my output if everything goes as planned. If that happens and I pull down 54 oz's I am buying stock in the company! I'd wait it out before you decide and see what happens based on my current grow unless your in a rush then i'd highly reccommend going with multiple fx-1s or similar. Well, that's my 2 cents on this. Fuck if my boss knew how much time i spend on this website i'd be standing in the unemployment line right now typing this response from my droid


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## medicine21 (Jan 31, 2011)

Yep, your interlacing LEDs theory has wheels. ISIS guy had big grow with a bunch of Mags and some ISIS FX1 lights every 4 Mags and mentioned interlacing. Would love to see the results of your test with that. I'm sure you can get a great deal $ if you show them your grow journal and tell them about your plan.


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## Devilspawn (Jan 31, 2011)

Your girls are looking very nice. I installed the blackstar today, moved the UFos to the sides and took out the CFL and put in timer on 18/6 cycle. Temps moved up from about 73 to 87 so she does throw a little heat. I do have the monitor at top of cab above exhaust so it may be a little misleading. Posted pics in my journal. I did a lot of hacking today too- clones, clean up of some dead/dying stuff from my nutes misadventure. Going to veg for another week or so depending on how much height I get under lst. Hope I made the right call with the blackstar- time will tell.


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## mad dog bark (Feb 1, 2011)

easy all. how the ladys going dunnit? yo devilspawn how wood i go about finding ya journel? can you post a thread pls or something tried to find but am crap at computers. i c alot of you use a parrafin burner for your co2 but doesnt that affect your temps quite abit? parrafin or wotever is a unfamiliar word to me is that natural gas?? sorry to be so dumb. guessing it simular to wot we call a camping stove?


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## dunit (Feb 1, 2011)

29 days in flower. Super busy right now and have been neglecting my journal. Can't believe the change in three days. Buds are way bigger and already starting to connect. Smell has really picked up too


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## mad dog bark (Feb 1, 2011)

shit yeah they have gone crazy in 3 days. good stuff. pics 4 and 7 impressive fella.


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## dunit (Feb 1, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> shit yeah they have gone crazy in 3 days. good stuff. pics 4 and 7 impressive fella.


Still working on getting a good blanket natural light source to take some really good pics so get a good feel for the whole show. All the plants are thick with foliage and crazy lush green healthy (which seems to be very common with LED's) and everywhere you look there are bud sites..... Frick I can't wait


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## dunit (Feb 1, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> easy all. how the ladys going dunnit? yo devilspawn how wood i go about finding ya journel? can you post a thread pls or something tried to find but am crap at computers. i c alot of you use a parrafin burner for your co2 but doesnt that affect your temps quite abit? parrafin or wotever is a unfamiliar word to me is that natural gas?? sorry to be so dumb. guessing it simular to wot we call a camping stove?


I've only ever heard of Parafin in England and I think that's just a British or Aussie term for Kerosene which is a common camping fuel in North America. My burner is propane powered but I can change the regulator and run Natural Gas. They are both very similar products. I actually find that it's handy to have a burner as the LED's run so cool the biggest problem I have is keeping the room warm enough especially when its -20C outside


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## medicine21 (Feb 1, 2011)

Looking good, man! Do you get a feel for how much a Mag can cover effectively at this point? Can one do 4x4'?


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## dunit (Feb 2, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Looking good, man! Do you get a feel for how much a Mag can cover effectively at this point? Can one do 4x4'?


I have two over a 4 x 4 but only because these plants didn't stretch like I was expecting and I expected to cover a 4x6 area with two of them. I would say that one light would definately cover a 4x3 area with 18"-24" (foliage) plant height. One thing to keep in mind is how tall your plants are because if you are looking for penetration with taller plants then I would keep the area smaller. If I was running SOG or SCROG I wouldn't say one of these panels would cover 4x4 and maybe even 4'6" x 4'6" no problem.


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## mad dog bark (Feb 2, 2011)

cool. cheers taking time to explain. will check them out on line. how long does a canister last you?
i see at start journel you was asking bout power plant. last trip to amsterdam think 4-7 year ago i had some super power plant. the stuff is evil man. huge buds and stinks. it was my fav. i tried loads from bubble gum, ak, j herrier, royal scuff, jelly hash durban p, most the hazes and power plant was easy the best. infact after a blunt i was giggling like a girl with heavy legs. when i got it the guy said he was the only chap in dam with it and if i found a equal or better then show him and he wood refund it. now i thought he was just a good sales man so i stacked a blunt. man slowest few hours of my life the man new his stuff. so yeah if you can find any super power plant if i was you i wood defo give it a try in future. dunno if power plant is same as super power plant. i found loads places that do power plant but no super power plant


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## Devilspawn (Feb 2, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> easy all. how the ladys going dunnit? yo devilspawn how wood i go about finding ya journel? can you post a thread pls or something tried to find but am crap at computers. i c alot of you use a parrafin burner for your co2 but doesnt that affect your temps quite abit? parrafin or wotever is a unfamiliar word to me is that natural gas?? sorry to be so dumb. guessing it simular to wot we call a camping stove?


siggy should link you to my journal


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## dunit (Feb 2, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> cool. cheers taking time to explain. will check them out on line. how long does a canister last you?
> i see at start journel you was asking bout power plant. last trip to amsterdam think 4-7 year ago i had some super power plant. the stuff is evil man. huge buds and stinks. it was my fav. i tried loads from bubble gum, ak, j herrier, royal scuff, jelly hash durban p, most the hazes and power plant was easy the best. infact after a blunt i was giggling like a girl with heavy legs. when i got it the guy said he was the only chap in dam with it and if i found a equal or better then show him and he wood refund it. now i thought he was just a good sales man so i stacked a blunt. man slowest few hours of my life the man new his stuff. so yeah if you can find any super power plant if i was you i wood defo give it a try in future. dunno if power plant is same as super power plant. i found loads places that do power plant but no super power plant


Can lasts me years. I have a 5 foot can and only run 150 cfm on it and it's rated for 800 I think.

My shows aren't that big either and I only turn it on about a month into flower.


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## dunit (Feb 4, 2011)

Pretty sure we just finished day 32 of flower. Just hit a bowl of Widow so it's not real clear right now 

Bud development is wicked for this far in.

LedBudGuy I'm coming for your record.....jk


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## roachclip420 (Feb 4, 2011)

Very very impressed with the results from the 357. Very tempted to pick one up myself


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## mad dog bark (Feb 5, 2011)

they plumping up well. how long left you think before the much awaited harvest?? lights seem great just a shame the company aint great at replying to e mails. bin weeks now. does make you think.


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## medicine21 (Feb 5, 2011)

Dave from 357mag has been very helpful and responsive to my mails...


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## dunit (Feb 6, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> they plumping up well. how long left you think before the much awaited harvest?? lights seem great just a shame the company aint great at replying to e mails. bin weeks now. does make you think.


That's bizzare! Gotta say I've never waited more than a day and that includes weekends. You emailing them from their site? Only thing I can think is that for some reason your addy got picked out by a spam filter.


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## dunit (Feb 6, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> they plumping up well. how long left you think before the much awaited harvest??


This is an eight week strain and kicked over Jan 3rd and I didn't do 24 hours of darkenss so it would take them a couple days for the hormones to change to trigger flower so very end of feb or first few days of march.


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## Devilspawn (Feb 6, 2011)

Looking great. Seriously considering building out a sep flower room soon, this cab is nice for small grows, but my 5 big girls are spreading out pretty good under LST leaving little space for my clone and the other two in there. Looks like all females on my carms if I'm reading the preflowers right- Who knows with the runt freebie- growing fast under blackstar though. The Widows are catching up- tons of side growth with LST and the one I topped early on If I do, may put a 357 mag in there. Waiting to see how big ur buds get- looks great so far.


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## mad dog bark (Feb 6, 2011)

how do all. i will rewrite to them. yeh i was on the web site. mayb had probs with sending. dunit are them flood tables diy jobs or did you buy them?wot r there sizes? they seem quite expensive to buy.


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## dunit (Feb 6, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> how do all. i will rewrite to them. yeh i was on the web site. mayb had probs with sending. dunit are them flood tables diy jobs or did you buy them?wot r there sizes? they seem quite expensive to buy.


They are flood tables and I only used them because I had them from my flood and drain days. I think home depot sells concrete mixing trays that are way cheaper and more or less the same thing. I have two 4x2 tables.


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## dunit (Feb 6, 2011)

Day 34 of flower. I'll just let the pictures do the talking


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## surgedup (Feb 6, 2011)

damn really nice!!!!


dunit said:


> Day 34 of flower. I'll just let the pictures do the talking


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## mad dog bark (Feb 7, 2011)

nice.looks like your getting some dark hairs forming on them ladys. doesnt look like the lights r struggling with bottom leaves etc, cant even see any yellowing, all seems very very healthy.them crystals or thc showing now to. great work. hope you get the results u want from this grow fella. you say they 3 gal pots or 5?


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## Canon (Feb 7, 2011)

Very nice grow & informative.
Been wanting to go LED for several reasons for awhile. Keep getting confused on the info / lies of sellers & mfgs. guess that puts me in the same boat as others, "I want to see non-biased grows."
One thing that holds me back is it seems most (not all) that grow LED use suplimental lighting. To me that means LED just are not _there_ yet, and I move on for a few months.
I'll be watching this because it is looking absolutely great for a shake down grow w/ new lighting.
Geat job all around.
Thanks for take the time....


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## medicine21 (Feb 7, 2011)

dunit said:


> They are flood tables and I only used them because I had them from my flood and drain days.


Why did you give up the flood and drain? Also, which strain are your growing?


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## Devilspawn (Feb 7, 2011)

If you have the right LEds and grow strategy, they seem to work just fine. Don't want to debate whose is biggest among the light mfg guys, not my fight, but it is clear to me and others that the higher wattage chipset you have, i.e. 3w like Dunit, lebudguy, myself...vs the 1 w and less lights, the better your success. For veg, my combo is amazing in terms of rate. I did run supplemental CFL initailly for increased cab temp, not growth lighting. With my new 3w light running with the two 1 w ufos, have plenty of heat now and a ton of light. As you can see with Dunit et al, you can get great budding with LED if you use the right lights. If there enough misinformation out there to scare a person interested in trying LED- hell yes. Is there misunderstanding of wattage claims, PAR, angle etc- hell yes. I jumped in with a prefab cab with 1W ufos before doing my research on LED vs HID/HPS because I wanted low heat and stealth. Also bought into vendors data on veg efficiency, etc based on tomatoe grows before I found this site. Didn't consider flower or height. Enough info here to say higher wattage, quality lights are your best bet for bud output. The cheapo Chinese panels running low wat chips maybe be good for initial veg or SOG grows, but they are not going to do it with bushy monsters like mine are turning into....


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## dunit (Feb 7, 2011)

Devilspawn said:


> If you have the right LEds and grow strategy, they seem to work just fine. Don't want to debate whose is biggest among the light mfg guys, not my fight, but it is clear to me and others that the higher wattage chipset you have, i.e. 3w like Dunit, lebudguy, myself...vs the 1 w and less lights, the better your success. For veg, my combo is amazing in terms of rate. I did run supplemental CFL initailly for increased cab temp, not growth lighting. With my new 3w light running with the two 1 w ufos, have plenty of heat now and a ton of light. As you can see with Dunit et al, you can get great budding with LED if you use the right lights. If there enough misinformation out there to scare a person interested in trying LED- hell yes. Is there misunderstanding of wattage claims, PAR, angle etc- hell yes. I jumped in with a prefab cab with 1W ufos before doing my research on LED vs HID/HPS because I wanted low heat and stealth. Also bought into vendors data on veg efficiency, etc based on tomatoe grows before I found this site. Didn't consider flower or height. Enough info here to say higher wattage, quality lights are your best bet for bud output. The cheapo Chinese panels running low wat chips maybe be good for initial veg or SOG grows, but they are not going to do it with bushy monsters like mine are turning into....


Thanks for the input. Pretty much sums up my experience trying to find a decent light. In the end I took a bit of a gamble because this was a new product but I felt that company had a good history and it's working out pretty good so far. It is unfortunate that there are so many shills, trolls and company reps on these public sites and the first time you point out why one panel is better than another with objective facts, people jump all over you and the information gets lost. 

I'm just gonna keep growing and lets the results speak for themselves.


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## dunit (Feb 7, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Why did you give up the flood and drain? Also, which strain are your growing?


We call this strain Hempstar and it has been around these parts for about a decade. Apparently it is more commonly known as Brainstorm now.

I went away from flood and drain just because of res and temp issues. I like to run a fairly hot grow room, 85F but root zone temps are best about 70F. A dirt like medium is just not as sensitive to temp. When I ran HID I had to have A/C in the room and I could just have that blowing on the res and underside of the table but with LED I don't need an A/C so everything is the same temp.


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## fourtwentyish (Feb 7, 2011)

Great thread. Very nice set up. Can't wait to see the final results. I started small w/a 2'x2' tent a 180w blackstar but am planning on turning that into just the veg room and get something bigger/better for a flower room later. These Magnums are looking like they may fit the bill. +rep for showing how well they work.


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## medicine21 (Feb 7, 2011)

dunit said:


> I went away from flood and drain just because of res and temp issues. I like to run a fairly hot grow room, 85F but root zone temps are best about 70F. A dirt like medium is just not as sensitive to temp. When I ran HID I had to have A/C in the room and I could just have that blowing on the res and underside of the table but with LED I don't need an A/C so everything is the same temp.


How much HID power did you have in your 4x4" and how how much did it yield? I guess in other words I am asking whether you can compare results in same space with HID lights you ran before?


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## shand (Feb 7, 2011)

I love this thread. I can't wait to see what you end up with!


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## Canon (Feb 8, 2011)

Grow room, 2' X 2 1/2' X 7 ft closet.
Flat white walls
Grows 2 X 2 X 3 ft tall plants from top of soil pot.
Presently using a 250 MH/HPS and pleased with the results so far. Heat & fans are a pain though.

Not too sure about the 90 watt blackstar.

Thinking the 
180 w Blackstar / Lighthouse, 6 band, 2 w, may be too much.

See a Dr. Growrite that only has 3 bands, but 3 watt LEDS at 150 watts.

Am I looking / thinking right here? 
Seems the Lighthouse may be the better choice and just raise it if it's too much?
I'd prefer a couple of 50's but see none with anything other than 1 w LEDs.  
If this is all wrong maybe you'd make a suggestion?
Thank you.


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## Devilspawn (Feb 8, 2011)

Canon said:


> Grow room, 2' X 2 1/2' X 7 ft closet.
> Flat white walls
> Grows 2 X 2 X 3 ft tall plants from top of soil pot.
> Presently using a 250 MH/HPS and pleased with the results so far. Heat & fans are a pain though.
> ...


 
Check the coverage area- based on wattage and angle- the 240 blackstar is only good for 4-6 sq ft....uses 60 deg chips at 3 w.


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## Devilspawn (Feb 8, 2011)

I agree- let the grows continue- hope both of ours work out...


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Feb 8, 2011)

180W Blackstar (get the six band if anything) only draws about 100W. I would go with that. I would much rather have the problem of having a more powerful light, and try to figure out a way to fit more plants, than having an under powered grow and have to get more lights. Thats just me. Also blackstar mixes its lens angles by spectrum. Some spectra have 120s, some have 90s, some have 60s. Depends on what wavelength. 

ISIS has a 170W panel that draws about 120W, that is running $379 however.

But I don't want to take away from the thread too much. 


Canon said:


> Grow room, 2' X 2 1/2' X 7 ft closet.
> Flat white walls
> Grows 2 X 2 X 3 ft tall plants from top of soil pot.
> Presently using a 250 MH/HPS and pleased with the results so far. Heat & fans are a pain though.
> ...


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## ledbudguy (Feb 8, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> 180W Blackstar (get the six band if anything) only draws about 100W. I would go with that. I would much rather have the problem of having a more powerful light, and try to figure out a way to fit more plants, than having an under powered grow and have to get more lights. Thats just me. Also blackstar mixes its lens angles by spectrum. Some spectra have 120s, some have 90s, some have 60s. Depends on what wavelength.
> 
> ISIS has a 170W panel that draws about 120W, that is running $379 however.
> 
> But I don't want to take away from the thread too much.


I love how you always metion how either isis or 357 is more expensive than crapstar hudson... epic buildup for the eventual smackdown


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## ledbudguy (Feb 8, 2011)

Canon said:


> Grow room, 2' X 2 1/2' X 7 ft closet.
> Flat white walls
> Grows 2 X 2 X 3 ft tall plants from top of soil pot.
> Presently using a 250 MH/HPS and pleased with the results so far. Heat & fans are a pain though.
> ...


I'd run with ANYTHING other than a "crapstar"... stealthgrow, isis and 357 are your best bets... Buying LEDs is like buying anything else, you get what you pay for. Crapstar is cheap shit which is always an option but if you want results go with one of the quality lines out there.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Feb 8, 2011)

Just dont want to exclude anyone and say that there is only one option. Whats wrong with mentioning the price?



ledbudguy said:


> I love how you always metion how either isis or 357 is more expensive than crapstar hudson... epic buildup for the eventual smackdown


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## Canon (Feb 8, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> ....But I don't want to take away from the thread too much.


Agreed.
Thank you guys. Very much appreciated. - canon


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## dunit (Feb 8, 2011)

2 x 2 1/2 with 3ft tall plants is an interesting layout for LED's. You are looking for small footprint and big penetration which is almost the opposite of what most LED manufacturers cater to because everyone is always looking to compare footprint. To get what you need you are looking for something with 3W LED's, narrow lens angle and I would say you need something that DRAWS over 100 watts which means that if they are advertizing using the max wattage something close to double that.

Both Hudson and LedBudGuy are right in their own rights and I respect both of them as they are actual growers. The whole Blackstar issue constantly causes conflict on this site and I'm pretty sure their entire advertising campaign consists of having trolls on the forums threaten anyone who questions their quality or asks to see results (Hudson is not one of these trolls and has been objective in the debate). Both LedBudGuy and myself (along with other growers who've PM's me about the whole issues) have received hate mail for running different lights and suggesting that Blackstar users need to post proof before advising other consumers that their panels are the best.

So anyway, Blackstar is the cheapest and is in the power range you are looking for and no one has yet posted a completed grow running just Blackstar. ISIS has produced the highest grams per watt of any LED grow journal (or HID for that matter) and is also in the power range you are looking for and is more expensive than Blackstar.

Good luck and I'll get back to growing


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## dunit (Feb 8, 2011)

Day 36 of flower and fattening nicely.


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## Hudsonvalley82 (Feb 8, 2011)

Appreciate the rational level headed response. Seems fleeting these days. Either way I actually wanted to comment on the grow and mention how well it is coming along. Looks like all the plants have to do is grow a little tiny bit more and start filling out. Good shit. 

One last good humored jab though directed at ledbudguy in response to his "crapstar" name (which is pretty funny), all I have to say is I$I$. LOL 



dunit said:


> 2 x 2 1/2 with 3ft tall plants is an interesting layout for LED's. You are looking for small footprint and big penetration which is almost the opposite of what most LED manufacturers cater to because everyone is always looking to compare footprint. To get what you need you are looking for something with 3W LED's, narrow lens angle and I would say you need something that DRAWS over 100 watts which means that if they are advertizing using the max wattage something close to double that.
> 
> Both Hudson and LedBudGuy are right in their own rights and I respect both of them as they are actual growers. The whole Blackstar issue constantly causes conflict on this site and I'm pretty sure their entire advertising campaign consists of having trolls on the forums threaten anyone who questions their quality or asks to see results (Hudson is not one of these trolls and has been objective in the debate). Both LedBudGuy and myself (along with other growers who've PM's me about the whole issues) have received hate mail for running different lights and suggesting that Blackstar users need to post proof before advising other consumers that their panels are the best.
> 
> ...


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## dunit (Feb 8, 2011)

Hudsonvalley82 said:


> Appreciate the rational level headed response. Seems fleeting these days. Either way I actually wanted to comment on the grow and mention how well it is coming along. Looks like all the plants have to do is grow a little tiny bit more and start filling out. Good shit.
> 
> One last good humored jab though directed at ledbudguy in response to his "crapstar" name (which is pretty funny), all I have to say is I$I$. LOL


Your I$I$ is very appropriate...............because right now they are pure money with the weights he's pulling....lol


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## roachclip420 (Feb 8, 2011)

dunit said:


> Your I$I$ is very appropriate...............because right now they are pure money with the weights he's pulling....lol


I was just about to say that...


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## username474 (Feb 9, 2011)

Can someone point me in the direction of the isis grow journal that you are refering to? I have spent 30+mins trying. Any help would be appreciated.


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## ledbudguy (Feb 9, 2011)

username474 said:


> Can someone point me in the direction of the isis grow journal that you are refering to? I have spent 30+mins trying. Any help would be appreciated.



https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/378470-confined-space-850w-led-master.html#post4808280


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## username474 (Feb 9, 2011)

Thanks man. Great to read. I was very close to purchasing 16 stealthgrow SG 602's. But now I have to strongly consider going with ISIS. Do do see any reasons for me to rule out stealthgrow?


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## ledbudguy (Feb 9, 2011)

username474 said:


> Thanks man. Great to read. I was very close to purchasing 16 stealthgrow SG 602's. But now I have to strongly consider going with ISIS. Do do see any reasons for me to rule out stealthgrow?


I don't have a bad thing to say about the isis panels I am running with. I think that these 357 magnums that dunit is running are going to knock the ball out of the park, they are made by the same company as isis. I've been talking to dave on their toll free looking for a deal on setting up a pretty serious room and this dude knows his shit when it comes down to growing bud with led. And he's pretty receptive to cutting me a deal.


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## dunit (Feb 9, 2011)

username474 said:


> Thanks man. Great to read. I was very close to purchasing 16 stealthgrow SG 602's. But now I have to strongly consider going with ISIS. Do do see any reasons for me to rule out stealthgrow?


I really like what Stealthgrow has to say and from my research before I bought my panels they have a great product but I had two issues. First was price. Someone on the LED USERS UNITE thread did a dollars per watt comparison and Stealthgrow had the most expensive panels out there. Second was lack of results. For as long as Stealthgrow has been around and for as great a product as they claim to have, I was really disappointed that I couldn't find a single journal running those panels. If I owned that company and stood behing my product claims I would have found an established grower (like GLH did with IrishBoy) and had him journal a grow. There is a guy on this site who has a friend running two SG602's over a 4x4 area and he has posted some pictures but that's all the intel I could find. 

In the end if I'm laying out that sort of cash I'm gonna go with whoever has the best results that I don't think are corrupt. One of the things I liked about LedBudGuy's grow, and I've said it on his thread, is that with the space he has you can't even sneak HID's in there and cheat the results. That was one of the reasons I went with that Company. I'm not saying there couldn't be a better product out there, just no one has put up results and those speak louder than all the manufacturers claims combined 

Whatever you pick, if you can avoid any security issues to do so, please post a journal so we can all learn


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## username474 (Feb 10, 2011)

Relpy to Ledbudguy. (Apparently I do not know how to reply to your response)


Has Dave said that the 357's are more advanced then the ISIS? Your journal and grow has been the first thing I completely believe and trust wholeheartedly, so it is hard for me to make this investment on anything other then the ISIS. I didn't know 357 was made by ISIS intill you told me though. Everything that I have read about stealthgrow prior to these journals had stealthgrow as the top dog on the block. 

Sorry for hijacking this thread OP. And thanks for everything.


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## username474 (Feb 10, 2011)

This is a reply to Dunit.


Yeah I agree with you totally, there has been cause for concern with all the journals that I have found about stealthgrow. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCCox9KVb9Y & http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7ssah3VOqE they both come off kind of toutish to me. And you and ledbudguy do not. I think I may buy one of each and have an electrician go through all of them. 
I will definitely post a journal when I do get setup.


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## ledbudguy (Feb 10, 2011)

username474 said:


> Relpy to Ledbudguy. (Apparently I do not know how to reply to your response)
> 
> 
> Has Dave said that the 357's are more advanced then the ISIS? Your journal and grow has been the first thing I completely believe and trust wholeheartedly, so it is hard for me to make this investment on anything other then the ISIS. I didn't know 357 was made by ISIS intill you told me though. Everything that I have read about stealthgrow prior to these journals had stealthgrow as the top dog on the block.
> ...


From what I understand the 357 is their new flagship that the isis paved the way for. I'd call the dude and let him explain it to you. I can without a shadow of a doubt tell you that my isis-1's work unreal for my application. I am redesigning a new room for my grow that should be good to go for next grow. I will be going with a combination of 357's and isis 170's in my new room, after discussing it with dave I am 110% convinced that this is the way to go. It's going to be a $10000 investment running 12 357 magnums and 6 isis-fx1 fixtures. Total maximum rated wattage is 5304w, the actual power draw is around 3000w. Based on what I already know growing 12" pecker poles I fully expect (based on my previous grow) to pull down in the 170 oz range @ .9g/watt.


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## rasputin71 (Feb 10, 2011)

Sick brag. I really want to get 3 of these and a 4x8 tent but dont think I can afford to do it all at once. I might DIY a flower room to save a little bit and get 2 of the 357's to start. If I only get 2 of them I will probably run them with my 600 hps until I can save for the 3rd 357.


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## ledbudguy (Feb 10, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> Sick brag. I really want to get 3 of these and a 4x8 tent but dont think I can afford to do it all at once. I might DIY a flower room to save a little bit and get 2 of the 357's to start. If I only get 2 of them I will probably run them with my 600 hps until I can save for the 3rd 357.


My buddy just ordered 4 357s that he is gonna run in conjuction with 3 600w HPS, I'll see if I can get him to start a grow journal.


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## medicine21 (Feb 10, 2011)

ledbudguy said:


> It's going to be a $10000 investment running 12 357 magnums and 6 isis-fx1 fixtures.


How will you set them up exactly? I assume you will try to max the interlacing and use the different lens angles on the two types of lights to get best coverage.


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## dunit (Feb 11, 2011)

Day 39 of flower


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## rasputin71 (Feb 11, 2011)

Can you refresh my memory, please: you have 12 plants total, in a 4' x 4' area but were planning to cover a 6' x 4' area with those 2 lights? 

12 plants is what I want to be able to flower, so it sounds like I need to work on plans for a 6x4 flower box and possibly 2 of these, if I like your results. If not I will just get another 600w HPS to go with my current flower rig.


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## dunit (Feb 11, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> Can you refresh my memory, please: you have 12 plants total, in a 4' x 4' area but were planning to cover a 6' x 4' area with those 2 lights?
> 
> 12 plants is what I want to be able to flower, so it sounds like I need to work on plans for a 6x4 flower box and possibly 2 of these, if I like your results. If not I will just get another 600w HPS to go with my current flower rig.


Yup! Plants didn't get quite as bit as I was anticipating so covering a smaller 4x4 area but could definately raise them up and cover a slightly larger 4x6 area


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## rasputin71 (Feb 11, 2011)

I know I have asked this in the past, but can you update these details when you have time: How tall are the plants currently over the top of the soil, and how far above the plants are the lights? I use LST/CCOB to keep my finished plants around 24" tall and my air-cooled hood about 12 - 18" off the tops.


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## dunit (Feb 11, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> I know I have asked this in the past, but can you update these details when you have time: How tall are the plants currently over the top of the soil, and how far above the plants are the lights? I use LST/CCOB to keep my finished plants around 24" tall and my air-cooled hood about 12 - 18" off the tops.


I'll measure them again tomorrow and see where we stand.


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## blunttrauma253 (Feb 11, 2011)

Read through this entire thread. Placed my order for 1 357 I should have it in 2 weeks. Just In time to put my 2 ladies I've been LST'ing for a month now into flower. I can't wait to see the results in my 3x3x5 cab.


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## dunit (Feb 11, 2011)

blunttrauma253 said:


> Read through this entire thread. Placed my order for 1 357 I should have it in 2 weeks. Just In time to put my 2 ladies I've been LST'ing for a month now into flower. I can't wait to see the results in my 3x3x5 cab.


Well I'd have to say that a 3x3 space will give you phenomenal intensity with one of these lights. Should get some heavy buds out of that. Post a journal


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## dunit (Feb 11, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> Sick brag. I really want to get 3 of these and a 4x8 tent but dont think I can afford to do it all at once. I might DIY a flower room to save a little bit and get 2 of the 357's to start. If I only get 2 of them I will probably run them with my 600 hps until I can save for the 3rd 357.


So apparently I'm not so swift on the comp today....not sure if that was you who PM's me but seem to have deleted the message while trying to reply.

the website I ordered from was www.357led.com

I would totally put a 600HPS in the center of a table and run the Magnums on the outside. Not sure how your room is for heat but these lights run so cool you may need to supplement with some heat to keep the temp up to optimal range so a 600HPS might be the ticket for that.

I used to run 3 x 600HPS's over a table so I think I've got a handle on your set up


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## blunttrauma253 (Feb 12, 2011)

dunit said:


> Well I'd have to say that a 3x3 space will give you phenomenal intensity with one of these lights. Should get some heavy buds out of that. Post a journal


Yes I definatly start a grow thread once it arrives. My 2 ladies is veging under a bunch of cfl bulbs. The 2 ladies should be spread out nicely to cover the whole 3x3 space when the 357 arrive to put tge ladies in bloom. tons of bud sites right now so i cant wait to get 1st hand results of dried led nugs to blaze on.


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## mad dog bark (Feb 12, 2011)

shit me. thats some serious bud growth again. looking nice man


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## dunit (Feb 12, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> shit me. thats some serious bud growth again. looking nice man


Just started some serious carb load so see if that can't take me to the next level


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## stiffer (Feb 13, 2011)

at this point in flowering how do you think they are looking compared to what they would if they were under 2 x 600w hps?.


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## yowzza (Feb 13, 2011)

So I see that you are using a coco/per/comp mix for your medium. Considering the differences with LEDs and your experiences thus far, do you think that is your preferred medium under these lights? I'm just curious about drying time between feedings and whatnot...


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## dunit (Feb 13, 2011)

yowzza said:


> So I see that you are using a coco/per/comp mix for your medium. Considering the differences with LEDs and your experiences thus far, do you think that is your preferred medium under these lights? I'm just curious about drying time between feedings and whatnot...


Well the coco does make it incredibly porous and you can hear the air getting sucked into the medium when you water. Almost sounds like rice crispies  Other than when I've had temp issues (too low) the growth has been explosive and I'd almost compare it to hydro. Anyway, one of the things I want to do is run my mix against Promix for a round to see what the performance difference is. The plants certainly don't dry out nearly as often as they do under HID so watch overwatering. I'm running 1300ppm nutes


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## dunit (Feb 13, 2011)

Day 41 is done people. Things are looking good and I'm impressed so far


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## roachclip420 (Feb 13, 2011)

with these results I feel like im about to sit back and watch leds take over


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## ledbudguy (Feb 13, 2011)

dunit said:


> Day 41 is done people. Things are looking good and I'm impressed so far


How many days does that strain flower for?


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## dunit (Feb 13, 2011)

ledbudguy said:


> How many days does that strain flower for?


Suppose to be 8 wks. Just had a buddy come down with plants from the same mum and seemed like they were finished at 8 wks but not sure how his weigh in is gonna pan out. He was under 1000HPS and had 16 plants in a 4x4


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## ColoradoLove (Feb 14, 2011)

Looking good man. I'm gonna be switching to LEDs once the summer heat comes on. I'm following a couple of journals to see if I want to do Blackstar or shell the extra for ISIS/Magnum. I'll have at least 200w of supplemental non-LED lighting so I'd probably be alright either way. Sub'd for comparison though!


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## medicine21 (Feb 14, 2011)

stiffer said:


> at this point in flowering how do you think they are looking compared to what they would if they were under 2 x 600w hps?.


Interested in this too. How does it compare to same conditions but with HPS?


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## dunit (Feb 14, 2011)

stiffer said:


> at this point in flowering how do you think they are looking compared to what they would if they were under 2 x 600w hps?.


Missed this question earlier. I used to run 3x600HPS over a 4x8 table so pretty familiar with 600's performance. At this point they are flowering as well as I recall under 600's with the only difference being that I really don't think this strain is that heavy a producer. Not trying to make excuses for the LED's, I just had a buddy who's a seasoned grower who is consistently a 1.75-1.8 lb per light grower pull down 1 lb 5oz of this strain and itn't going to run it again. We both run coco and CO2 so it's a pretty good heads up comparison.

That being said I'm gonna run the wheels off this grow and see how I do against his 1lb5oz under 1000HPS and that should give me a good idea of how these lights perform. Condisdering my actual draw with both lights is only 360watts if I come anywhere close I'll be doing really well.


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## dunit (Feb 15, 2011)

Day 43 of Flower. They are starting to suck down now so hoping they pack on the weight


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## ledbudguy (Feb 15, 2011)

dunit said:


> Day 43 of Flower. They are starting to suck down now so hoping they pack on the weight


those girls are looking wicked... and you have just entered the "money zone" in terms of packing on the candy!!! i can't wait to see what you pull down!!!


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## roachclip420 (Feb 15, 2011)

dunit said:


> Missed this question earlier. I used to run 3x600HPS over a 4x8 table so pretty familiar with 600's performance. At this point they are flowering as well as I recall under 600's with the only difference being that I really don't think this strain is that heavy a producer. Not trying to make excuses for the LED's, I just had a buddy who's a seasoned grower who is consistently a 1.75-1.8 lb per light grower pull down 1 lb 5oz of this strain and itn't going to run it again. We both run coco and CO2 so it's a pretty good heads up comparison.
> 
> That being said I'm gonna run the wheels off this grow and see how I do against his 1lb5oz under 1000HPS and that should give me a good idea of how these lights perform. Condisdering my actual draw with both lights is only 360watts if I come anywhere close I'll be doing really well.


What about color and resin production compared to the hps? By the pics they look amazing but ive never personally grown this strain


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## dunit (Feb 15, 2011)

roachclip420 said:


> What about color and resin production compared to the hps? By the pics they look amazing but ive never personally grown this strain


My buddy that just came down with this strain under HPS gave me a couple nugz so I'll post some comparison pictures.


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## yowzza (Feb 15, 2011)

Can't wait to see how they finish...looking good so far!


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## mad dog bark (Feb 16, 2011)

morning all. yum yum looking good. couple questions how much co2 you say you giving them? and you say you just started with it?
you just doing the normal nutes (GH)? also do you think that the results wood be same if you was running your flood and drain tables rather then hand feeding them?


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## dunit (Feb 16, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> morning all. yum yum looking good. couple questions how much co2 you say you giving them? and you say you just started with it?
> you just doing the normal nutes (GH)? also do you think that the results wood be same if you was running your flood and drain tables rather then hand feeding them?


They've been getting CO2 from the beginning of flower. Controller is set at 1100ppm and it's a propane burner supplying. Once in a while the propane runs out but I usually catch it within a day. Nutes started out as regular GH but switched to their Flora Nova series about three weeks in and running carb load as of a week ago although should have been running it sooner. I'm gonna rig up the system when I have time to take advantage of the flood and drain tables and just feed them on a bottom soak system just like flood and drain. I don't think it will make much difference, just easier.


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## mad dog bark (Feb 16, 2011)

if you did run the table again {flood n drain) wood you stick with the same pot mix(coco , perlite and small amount compost) or wood you change things about?
how are the nugets doing on the lower branchs? look good on pics but cant c if they gunna be thick hard buds or whispy? sure over this week will see more.
oh and not sure if you seen the black dog led panels. think the platinum model has 3 and 5 wat leds? anybody out there got one yet or no of any journals using them? 
Any ways dunnit really good jounnal man thanks again for taking th time answering questions. cant wait see wot the two mags can do for you.


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## roachclip420 (Feb 16, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> if you did run the table again {flood n drain) wood you stick with the same pot mix(coco , perlite and small amount compost) or wood you change things about?
> how are the nugets doing on the lower branchs? look good on pics but cant c if they gunna be thick hard buds or whispy? sure over this week will see more.
> oh and not sure if you seen the black dog led panels. think the platinum model has 3 and 5 wat leds? anybody out there got one yet or no of any journels using them?
> Any ways dunnit really good jouney man thanks again for taking th time answering questions. cant wait see wot the two mags can do for you.


Im sure you would be getting crazy light penetration with those 5watts. whats the total wattage and price of the units?


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## mad dog bark (Feb 17, 2011)

they sound good but cant find much info on the company. i beleive it is 740 actual watts and 288 leds. but wot make of leds i cant find. check out black dog led. think the one i talking bout is xl plat model. think it is 1600 dollars. they have a 300 w panel also for 600 dollars using 3 w chips. wot i like bout this company is all lights can be set up for just flowering or veg or available in full cycle. thinking that if they do work well and got one for just flowering, i can imagine or hope the penetration wood be so good that side lighting could be a thing off the past... or mayb just wishful thinkin


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## medicine21 (Feb 17, 2011)

Only "grow" I can find with Blackdog LED is by ebflow. Seems like it could be by a company rep though and no updates in a couple of weeks... Anybody else see BD LED in action?


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## doug henderson (Feb 17, 2011)

*nice lookin grow dunit. nice to see people having success with led they sure have come a long way. I'm new to RIU but not to growing MJ. This summer I will be expanding my small closet grow into a full blown operation and was thinking about going LED and hydro or aero. I was looking into a 300W light from Growledhydro because Irishboy has had some amazing results with that manufacturer but the price tag is ungodly. I'm trying to cover a 6x3 foot area so if i bought one of the GLH lights I would have to put it on a 6ft mover to get the coverage I want SOG style. If I went with the magnum light I could buy 2 for the same price and put them side by side and get the same coverage. I could also save 700 bucks and buy 1 magnum and put it on a mover. I'm really just wondering how not having the light directly over the plant a few times a day would affect bud production. My walls will be lined with mylar also. I thank any educated replies ahead of time. 

PEACE*


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## ColoradoLove (Feb 17, 2011)

Lookin solid man! The Magnums are from the same parent company as ISIS right?


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## squeej (Feb 17, 2011)

Looks awesome! I've been waiting to get the cash together for a LED and have debated if its even worth it but I think Ill go for it now!


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## dunit (Feb 17, 2011)

ColoradoLove said:


> Lookin solid man! The Magnums are from the same parent company as ISIS right?


Yup. Grow Perfect is the parent company of both and they are out of Vancouver Island.


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## dunit (Feb 18, 2011)

Day 45 of flower


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## dunit (Feb 18, 2011)

doug henderson said:


> *nice lookin grow dunit. nice to see people having success with led they sure have come a long way. I'm new to RIU but not to growing MJ. This summer I will be expanding my small closet grow into a full blown operation and was thinking about going LED and hydro or aero. I was looking into a 300W light from Growledhydro because Irishboy has had some amazing results with that manufacturer but the price tag is ungodly. I'm trying to cover a 6x3 foot area so if i bought one of the GLH lights I would have to put it on a 6ft mover to get the coverage I want SOG style. If I went with the magnum light I could buy 2 for the same price and put them side by side and get the same coverage. I could also save 700 bucks and buy 1 magnum and put it on a mover. I'm really just wondering how not having the light directly over the plant a few times a day would affect bud production. My walls will be lined with mylar also. I thank any educated replies ahead of time.
> 
> PEACE*


I only like light movers when they are used over a very short distance to help avoid shading of lower branches, basically moving the light inside the normal coverage area of a single light. Anytime you use one over a large area to replace another light you basically reduce your intensity for the duration of the light cycle. Because LED's dont have the footprint of big HPS lights I'd be inclined to avoid light movers but thats just me. 

Irish did well and was certainly one of the pioneers of LED growing and his journals convinced me to give them a try again after my Procyon experience. LedBudGuy is doing better and watching his grow, and using an ISIS for veg was how I decided to go with Magnum as they are made by the same company as ISIS. The Spectra series are definately one of the good lights out there and my only beef with them is that the numbers on their web page don't add up. They say they draw a certain wattage and they also post how many amps they draw at 110V and the two numbers aren't even close. For example the Spectra 300 claims to draw 360 watts but the amps x volts adds up to 264 watts which makes them very expensive for that sort of output. I'm sure you'd be happy with either and in the end ignore the marketing and see who's getting results. My preference is two magnums and I was going to cover a 4x6 area with mine but this strain just never got as big as I thought so I'm under a smaller area.


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## mad dog bark (Feb 18, 2011)

looking awesome


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## Gilfman (Feb 18, 2011)

hey Dunit, do you think 1 ISIS-FX1 (170W) would produce some nice plants in a 4x4 area scrog? or would you recommend 1 magnum 357, 1 ISIS-FX2, or 2 ISIS-FX1?


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## dunit (Feb 18, 2011)

Gilfman said:


> hey Dunit, do you think 1 ISIS-FX1 (170W) would produce some nice plants in a 4x4 area scrog? or would you recommend 1 magnum 357, 1 ISIS-FX2, or 2 ISIS-FX1?


The Magnums have 60 degree lenses and are really designed to get penetration on bigger plants in my opinion. Scrog is designed to have a very flat canopy so needs a bigger footprint with less emphasis on penetration. I would go with two ISIS-FX1 as they run 90 degree lenses and I think are taylor made for that style of application. For some backup on my opinion check out the first grow run by LedBudGuy running ISIS-1's over very short plants. 764 grams from 5 ISIS-1 panels. I think they would be money for SCROG


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## doug henderson (Feb 19, 2011)

dunit said:


> I only like light movers when they are used over a very short distance to help avoid shading of lower branches, basically moving the light inside the normal coverage area of a single light. Anytime you use one over a large area to replace another light you basically reduce your intensity for the duration of the light cycle. Because LED's dont have the footprint of big HPS lights I'd be inclined to avoid light movers but thats just me.
> 
> Irish did well and was certainly one of the pioneers of LED growing and his journals convinced me to give them a try again after my Procyon experience. LedBudGuy is doing better and watching his grow, and using an ISIS for veg was how I decided to go with Magnum as they are made by the same company as ISIS. The Spectra series are definately one of the good lights out there and my only beef with them is that the numbers on their web page don't add up. They say they draw a certain wattage and they also post how many amps they draw at 110V and the two numbers aren't even close. For example the Spectra 300 claims to draw 360 watts but the amps x volts adds up to 264 watts which makes them very expensive for that sort of output. I'm sure you'd be happy with either and in the end ignore the marketing and see who's getting results. My preference is two magnums and I was going to cover a 4x6 area with mine but this strain just never got as big as I thought so I'm under a smaller area.



thanks for the advice dunit and your plants look awesome. good luck can't wait to hear about the final product.


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## chewganja (Feb 22, 2011)

been watching your grow for a while. Sub'd

got two Skywalkers and three Northern Lights going under two of these panels right now. way taller than I wanted so see how they do cuz they are supposed to be the bomb for penetration


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## ojonice (Feb 22, 2011)

So what do u think of the clame of totaly replacing a 1000w?


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

ojonice said:


> So what do u think of the clame of totaly replacing a 1000w?


I think you should just believe results 

I'll keep you posted at weigh in time.


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

Well been dealing with some issues and will post some pics tomorrow. Really seemed like the girls were stalling starting about a week ago. Trichs were starting to mature early (or at least I thought so) which is a sign of stress. Tracked down a guy who grows this strain all the time and he said they don't do well with heavy nutes and they lock out real easy. They were looking so healthy I never would have thought but he popped by and we did a flush just to be safe. Third flush runoff PPM was just over 1500 

Not sure how that's gonna affect the final result and hopefully I caught it early enough but still concerning as I am in prime production time. Will post pics tomorrow as the one's I took today somethings wrong with the autofocus and they are all blurry.


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

chewganja said:


> been watching your grow for a while. Sub'd
> 
> got two Skywalkers and three Northern Lights going under two of these panels right now. way taller than I wanted so see how they do cuz they are supposed to be the bomb for penetration


Put up some pics


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## mad dog bark (Feb 22, 2011)

no way. so was over doing the nutes? thats gutting man sorry to hear that. good luck hope you got it early enuff to still get some good results.


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## IDrinkCoffee (Feb 22, 2011)

how many plants do you currently have in this grow? I know you started out with 50 but want to know what you currently have. 

how tall were they when you switched from veg to flower? how tall are they currently now since they're matured? if you could have, would you have let them veg longer? if so, how tall would you let them go to before the switch? I'm asking these questions because I have a similar size grow room (4.5X5X7) and might how with mags because of this grow :]


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## IDrinkCoffee (Feb 22, 2011)

* I might grow with mags because of your grow

(I can't edit my post because I'm at work typing on my phone..so, sorry for the double post. just didn't want to confuse you on the last sentence lol)


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## Fredtrick Blunt (Feb 22, 2011)

Hey Dunit, 

Been following ur posts for a while now. 

I'm going to be building perpetual aeroponics set-up. I'll be growing a crop of 24 plants per 3 week cycle I hope. I hope to have 3 tables(sections) full of aeroponics for the flowering room, and then another 30 plants veg per 3 weeks. 

My measurements are 3ftx8ft, per section?so in total apx 10x8 when all 3 sections come together. I want to know if I can run 3 Mag's in an I-Beam(I) set up with 2x400's set up by the middle. Or should I be looking for a lower wattage, and place 2 lights per section?(6 total)

I'm hoping to cut 24 plants every 3 weeks. This would make a little more pricey light become a reasonable thing as long as the outcomes are worth it. Maybe I could even spring for 6-357's... then it would be 3ftx4ft coverage with some nice overlaps... Would it balance out in bud weight is what I want to find out from your totals at the end of dried grams per plant average... I know they are made for penetration, so I figure a close grow would work well...

I like the low heat factor an incredible amount, as police at my door generally makes a shitty day.

I figure I can comfortably run a perpetual system of total about 96 plants(72 flower n' apx 30 veg. - I'll not flower the six weakest looking plants...) in a 12x12 room, which means odor control is simple as I can run a negative air system where the carbon filter and fan are creating negative pressure in the chamber to make sure all smell disappears. This way no stinky gets out to make things all too sticky. I'm hoping the heat issue is the least of my worries.

Thoughts? 

Tricky B.


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

IDrinkCoffee said:


> how many plants do you currently have in this grow? I know you started out with 50 but want to know what you currently have.
> 
> how tall were they when you switched from veg to flower? how tall are they currently now since they're matured? if you could have, would you have let them veg longer? if so, how tall would you let them go to before the switch? I'm asking these questions because I have a similar size grow room (4.5X5X7) and might how with mags because of this grow :]


I have 12 in this current grow and 18 (purple kush) in veg under my ISIS. I'll have to look back in the post because I documented sise. I think I triggered them at about 17-18" and they are about 24" right now. I don't really have an issue with the height but was hoping for bushier plants and should have transplanted out of the one gallons into 3 gallons way earlier. I think the height is about ideal but if they were a bit bushier I would be happier.


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> no way. so was over doing the nutes? thats gutting man sorry to hear that. good luck hope you got it early enuff to still get some good results.


I'll post some pics in a couple hours. Here's hoping. I'm pretty sure I'll get good results but maybe not the great results I was hoping for. Going back to PK for the next grow cause I know that strain well and what works for it


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## YungMoolaBaby (Feb 22, 2011)

Sub'd for the rest of this one..


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

Fredtrick Blunt said:


> Hey Dunit,
> 
> Been following ur posts for a while now.
> 
> ...


 
I like the sound of the setup and hoping to get a three part perpetual harvesting every month once I get dialed in. The only part of your system I'm not understanding is the lighting arrangement. You basically have three tables of 3x8 with one in first 3 weeks of flower, one in mid 3 weeks of flower and one in last 3 weeks of flower. You are talking about 3 magnums and 2x400HPS total over the entire 10x8 area? 

What room temp you hoping to run and do you need the HPS for heat to maintain that?


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## Fredtrick Blunt (Feb 22, 2011)

dunit said:


> I like the sound of the setup and hoping to get a three part perpetual harvesting every month once I get dialed in. The only part of your system I'm not understanding is the lighting arrangement. You basically have three tables of 3x8 with one in first 3 weeks of flower, one in mid 3 weeks of flower and one in last 3 weeks of flower. You are talking about 3 magnums and 2x400HPS total over the entire 10x8 area?
> 
> What room temp you hoping to run and do you need the HPS for heat to maintain that?


I hope to keep the room in the mid-high 70's. I might want to just run the system off LED's. I was adding the 2 HID's for coverage, different spectrum, and also because I might struggle with the heating if the room is totally sealed from inflow and the LED's make no heat. Maybe a space heater can solve problems though?? 

I like the simple fact that the LED's don't draw the power like HID's (which is cheep where I live lol). I figure with 2k I can run the total of everything, I think u said something like the LED's pull less power than rated as they run best like that? Like equivalence of running my computer and bigscreen non-stop, with an oil heater lol... That might actually be more power lol. 

Heat is a nil-issue as I can keep it a balmy 76deg or about 24deg celcuis. Which I think will be provided by the space heater. Do LED's also helps out on moisture? How do u find ur moisture with LED's compared to the HID's of old?

Tricky B. 

If u don't care I can chuck up a sketch of how I'd envisioned the system with HID's and also with the LED's I think it'd be a perfect. It just means biting the bullet and buying 6 new Mags... eeep....


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

Well we are at day 50 of flower. They are drawing down pretty hard and have been well flushed as they were definately showing signs of lock out.


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## medicine21 (Feb 22, 2011)

Some good nuggets in there! What do the trichomes look like? How many days left?


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## Devilspawn (Feb 22, 2011)

Hey Dunit things looking good despite the nute lock. Thought I was coming up on that in my hydro so just cleaned n flushed today. One question since you said they arent as bushy as you hoped- Why not LST? My short fat monsters seem to be digging it. My accidental topped widows seem to like it too and did get the four main shoots after accidentally Uncle ben-ing them.


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

Fredtrick Blunt said:


> I hope to keep the room in the mid-high 70's. I might want to just run the system off LED's. I was adding the 2 HID's for coverage, different spectrum, and also because I might struggle with the heating if the room is totally sealed from inflow and the LED's make no heat. Maybe a space heater can solve problems though??
> 
> I like the simple fact that the LED's don't draw the power like HID's (which is cheep where I live lol). I figure with 2k I can run the total of everything, I think u said something like the LED's pull less power than rated as they run best like that? Like equivalence of running my computer and bigscreen non-stop, with an oil heater lol... That might actually be more power lol.
> 
> ...


If I was trying to cover an 8 x 10 area I would expect to use about 4000 watts of HID or 2000 watts of LED or mix and match using those ratios. If you need heat then using some HID is a good way to go as at least the power is not wasted like it would be with a space heater.


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## medicine21 (Feb 22, 2011)

dunit said:


> If I was trying to cover an 8 x 10 area I would expect to use about 4000 watts of HID or 2000 watts of LED or mix and match using those ratios. If you need heat then using some HID is a good way to go as at least the power is not wasted like it would be with a space heater.


dunit, I think we gotta be more realistic with LED expectations. Personally, I would plan more for a 20-30% decrease in power to match HID with LED. To match 4000W HPS yield I would budget right around 3000W LED and look for better quality to boot.

You had this 4x4 covered with 600W before, no? Mag draws 180-190W so now let's say you got 190x2=380W LED. If I'm right, then you will not see the same yield as you did with a 600W. If I'm wrong... well shit I will be real happy for you!


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## medicine21 (Feb 22, 2011)

dunit said:


> If you need heat then using some HID is a good way to go as at least the power is not wasted like it would be with a space heater.


I was thinking about this too, since about to replace my HID setup with LEDs, but I guess I would have to put a 1000W on thermostat or something, that would be odd, since it will be coming on and off. Also wouldn't be able to use it on those cold nights.


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> dunit, I think we gotta be more realistic with LED expectations. Personally, I would plan more for a 20-30% decrease in power to match HID with LED. To match 4000W HPS yield I would budget right around 3000W LED and look for better quality to boot.
> 
> You had this 4x4 covered with 600W before, no? Mag draws 180-190W so now let's say you got 190x2=380W LED. If I'm right, then you will not see the same yield as you did with a 600W. If I'm wrong... well shit I will be real happy for you!


It sure doesn't hurt to error on the side of more light so not gonna argue that 3000 would be better than 2000  

Yes I used to cover the same area with 600HPS and would expect a pound from that. Currently have 360 watts of LED and was really expecting to break a pound prior to this nute lockout issue but I caught it fairly quick, just unfortunatley that it happened during prime time for weight gain so we'll see how it pans out.

Definately the construction of the panels is gonna play a big part. Doesn't matter how many watts you have if they are all 1W LED's and/or have wide lenses and/or aren't hitting the right spectrums.


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## shaggy2dope (Feb 22, 2011)

Do you have any input of the vegatative capabilities of the 357??


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

shaggy2dope said:


> Do you have any input of the vegatative capabilities of the 357??


I didn't veg with them so couldn't really give any hands on input. My thought on that are that these lights are set up for penetration and although they would work fine for veg I think they'd be overkill, at least at first. I'd be inclined to find a lower power light with slightly wider lens angle and run simultaneous veg and flower. I've got the next round veggin nicely under my 170 ISIS


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## shaggy2dope (Feb 22, 2011)

Overkill is my middle name. I decided to build a LxWxH 2.5 x 2.5 x 6.5 ft. I was thinking of using a mix of cfls because i have a few laying around. If the bulbs are 23w what mix should i use. 


Like 1 5000K 1 6500k 1 2700k?? or 2 5K and 1 65K

I've used cfls but not with good results so thats why i was wanting to know if it could veg. Also i heard that the uv and ir could hurt the seedlings. Is that true? Couldn't find any reliable facts on that. Couldn't i just raise the light like 3' above and wait till second set of leave and start very gradual lowering of light? sorry really high.

Also thanx for the quick reply +rep


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## dunit (Feb 22, 2011)

shaggy2dope said:


> Overkill is my middle name. I decided to build a LxWxH 2.5 x 2.5 x 6.5 ft. I was thinking of using a mix of cfls because i have a few laying around. If the bulbs are 23w what mix should i use.
> 
> 
> Like 1 5000K 1 6500k 1 2700k?? or 2 5K and 1 65K
> ...


In that kind of space the Mag lens angle would definately work in your favor. I would def keep them up high and bring them down slowly. 3 ft would be fine. These lights only have trace amounts of UV and IR and my ISIS has the same and it kills my Metal Halide for overall plant health.

If you are going to use CFL for supplementation I would definately stick with the heavy blue to counter the heavy red of the flowering spectrum. I really like the 2 5K and one 65K as that averages out to about 5500K which is the peak I'd be aiming for.


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## shaggy2dope (Feb 22, 2011)

So I should leave both spectrums on (the switches on the 357 VEG./FLW.) and supplement with the 2 5000K and a 6500K to help with the veg stage. Then once done with veg should I replace the 3 cfls and get like a 100w cfl 2700K or a bit lower (in kelven) if i can find one i think I've seen one that was 2200K something or other. Or just keep the three cfls the whole grow or just take them out once done with veg? 

I really apricreate your time and cooperation on my n00b troubles.


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## mad dog bark (Feb 23, 2011)

wasnt near as bad as i was thinking fella. i was thinking the worst wen u hadnt updated. so with these new avents do you think will effect the weight much quality or finish time?


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## mad dog bark (Feb 23, 2011)

me again. by wot you descibed could th problem not just b a sodium chloride build up? you in final 2 weeks yeah? mayb if you do that strain again switch to b.a.c final soloution last couple weeks or 3 or try something simular. swear i read something somewhere about a simular problem which happened to some1. anyways mayb waffling rubbish sorry if i am but just a thought. might b worth researching if u get th time


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## dunit (Feb 23, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> me again. by wot you descibed could th problem not just b a sodium chloride build up? you in final 2 weeks yeah? mayb if you do that strain again switch to b.a.c final soloution last couple weeks or 3 or try something simular. swear i read something somewhere about a simular problem which happened to some1. anyways mayb waffling rubbish sorry if i am but just a thought. might b worth researching if u get th time


I think we are talking about the same thing. Nute lock-out is caused by too much salt (nutes) in the medium and the plants just won't uptake anything. They don't even take up much water and look a little wilted. Things are looking better and I will get some pics up tomorrow. 

It certainly won't affect the quality and usually lockout for a week wouldn't be a huge hit on weight but I'm in week 7 so it should have been prime time for big feeds and overdrive so I think it's definately gonna have an impact 

Live and learn and it's not like it's a total loss and seeing how well things have gone so far I'm certainly back on the LED bandwagon. These new generation of panels are certainly the bomb


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## dunit (Feb 23, 2011)

shaggy2dope said:


> So I should leave both spectrums on (the switches on the 357 VEG./FLW.) and supplement with the 2 5000K and a 6500K to help with the veg stage. Then once done with veg should I replace the 3 cfls and get like a 100w cfl 2700K or a bit lower (in kelven) if i can find one i think I've seen one that was 2200K something or other. Or just keep the three cfls the whole grow or just take them out once done with veg?
> 
> I really apricreate your time and cooperation on my n00b troubles.


I'd add in some heavy blue CFL's for flower if you really want to or the other option would be to switch the Magnum into Veg mode every other day which basically turns off the red spectrum. Either way the more blue the more side branching you will get. 

I wouldn't bother with CFL's in flower but they won't hurt anything. Depends if you need the heat because 100watts of CFL will certaily kick off some.


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## Cereall (Feb 23, 2011)

looking great... bummer on the lock out issues but hopefully everything clears up soon and they can finish up strong

May i ask how high you run your magnum and also your isis? I am running some LEDs and having a hard time seeing if different light height helps th growth rates... tried everywhere from 8" to 24" and still undecided where to run the lights

thanks and anxiously awaiting to see how your lights finish up those babies


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## dunit (Feb 23, 2011)

My ISIS I run about 15-18" but that is for veg. If I was to use it for flower I would drop it down to 10-12". My magnum I run at 12"-15" for flower but that is over tall, dense plants. If I was to use it for veg I would definately get it up in the 30" range and slowly lower it down.


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## Cereall (Feb 23, 2011)

Thank you greatly for the reply... 
Im currently at 16" vegging but with 2w LEDs with 90* angle... i know your magnums are 3w'ers so you can probably run those a little higher with same/better penetration

1 more thing if you dont mind.... do you like to veg under full spectrum or whites/veg lights primarily? (i think your isis are switchable right?)


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## medicine21 (Feb 23, 2011)

Did you say you had something vegging for the next round? Let's see a sneak peak!


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## dunit (Feb 23, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Did you say you had something vegging for the next round? Let's see a sneak peak!


Yes I did and they're looking awesome  Sneak peak tomorrow. Repotting into 3 gallons


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## dunit (Feb 23, 2011)

Cereall said:


> Thank you greatly for the reply...
> Im currently at 16" vegging but with 2w LEDs with 90* angle... i know your magnums are 3w'ers so you can probably run those a little higher with same/better penetration
> 
> 1 more thing if you dont mind.... do you like to veg under full spectrum or whites/veg lights primarily? (i think your isis are switchable right?)


Magnums are 3W and 60 degree lenses so lots more intense and can definately run higher. 

I alternate the spectrums. I don't think the heavy red of full spectrum is great for veg and I also don't think that totally excluding red (veg mode) is good for balanced growth/health. I've started running full spectrum on feed days and blue or veg spectrum on water days so it gets switched every two or three days.


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## shaggy2dope (Feb 23, 2011)

dunit said:


> I'd add in some heavy blue CFL's for flower if you really want to or the other option would be to switch the Magnum into Veg mode every other day which basically turns off the red spectrum. Either way the more blue the more side branching you will get.
> 
> I wouldn't bother with CFL's in flower but they won't hurt anything. Depends if you need the heat because 100watts of CFL will certaily kick off some.


Thanks for the reply. Think I'm all set. Thanks for everything. You tha man!


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## Fredtrick Blunt (Feb 24, 2011)

dunit said:


> If I was trying to cover an 8 x 10 area I would expect to use about 4000 watts of HID or 2000 watts of LED or mix and match using those ratios. If you need heat then using some HID is a good way to go as at least the power is not wasted like it would be with a space heater.


Haha... Ya I guess I read a little too much into the replacement claims of replacing 1k HID's... 

I was thinking 6 wuld do the job swell, maybe put on a short range light mover for a small bit of penetration and light angle change. Maybe movement of about 1-2ft in total. 

I want to grow in rows basically. 3 rows each 3ft wide by apx. 8ft. long consisting of 4 aero boxes. There is a similar setup using 6 x 1k HID's but I think 6k watts might be a bit overkill as total square footage is only 72'sq.(72x50). The link is https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/407968-jock-horror-3-week-perpetual.html The guy's got a sick setup, but had problems with humidity and saw bad ass bud rot. Although I think I can quite improve on the simplicity and the controls of his setup. LED= Less heat, lower humidity and also added mold and rot control from UV spectrum?

With basic calculations I figure I need 3600w of HID, and depending on which company of LED's maybe I need 1 or maybe listening to sketics i need 30... lol... I want fast run's though from start to dried in 12weeks(god willing). 

Simple matter of fact is need to know and figure my calculations on whether 3'x4' is not a stretch for higher power LED's(357 mag?)

I was also debating the facts of ISIS's FX3>>> it says it can cover 100'sq, but I really doubt claims of that... Maybe 2 ISISFX3'??? Same shit as Magnum's just bigger eh? or would I still need to take 3?

Just picking my brain n urs before I pick through my wallet. 

Tricky B.


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## medicine21 (Feb 24, 2011)

Fredtrick Blunt said:


> Haha... Ya I guess I read a little too much into the replacement claims of replacing 1k HID's...
> 
> I was thinking 6 wuld do the job swell, maybe put on a short range light mover for a small bit of penetration and light angle change. Maybe movement of about 1-2ft in total.
> 
> ...


If I were you, I would cover each 3x8 row either with 3 Magnums (180W each) for a total of 9X180W =1620W OR 3 GLH Spectras each at 290W (ignore the outdated web site info) for a total of 2610W drawn. My preference would be the latter, not only because you get more power with the Spectras but also because they are $50 cheaper each for a savings of $450. The Mag lights are being proven right now here by dunit to work, and the Spectras have a few succesful grow journals behind them as well. Either way I would not go for less lights than that for your area.


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## dunit (Feb 24, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> If I were you, I would cover each 3x8 row either with 3 Magnums (180W each) for a total of 9X180W =1620W OR 3 GLH Spectras each at 290W (ignore the outdated web site info) for a total of 2610W drawn. My preference would be the latter, not only because you get more power with the Spectras but also because they are $50 cheaper each for a savings of $450. The Mag lights are being proven right now here by dunit to work, and the Spectras have a few succesful grow journals behind them as well. Either way I would not go for less lights than that for your area.


Running 3 lights over a 3x8 area would certainly give lots of interlacing/cross-lighting and I bet would yeild some impressive results. LedBudGuy swears that the cross lighting is the key and he's the only one putting up big numbers so far so I'm inclined to think he's onto something. 

The Spectra 280W is supposed to represent about a 10% increase over their old model (240W) and the old models actual draw was 1.25 amps which represents 137 watts actual draw vs the 240 claimed so I still bet that the Spectra 280W will only draw about 1.5 amps putting the actual power draw at about 180watts so pretty much on par with the Mag. They are definately one of the good lights, I just think that GrowPerfect has had better yields so far which was why I went with the Mag but each to his own.


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## medicine21 (Feb 24, 2011)

I'm quite sure that the new Spectra 280W actually DRAWS 290W, based on recent tests. Check Irishboy thread over at 420. The numbers you are calculating are using not only the old lights but also the OLD marketing approach of GLH. Meaning, full of BS and confusion like most LED manufacturer web sites. The good news is that Mike from GLH seems committed to breaking the norm and stating only ACTUAL DRAWS and facts about his lights. We shall see once his updated web site goes up in a couple of weeks.

Bottom line is that the Spectra 280W draws 290W and the 450W draws 500W. Check user "supergravy" grow journal on 420 where he hooks up the Spectra 240W and BlackStar 240W to a Kill-a-Watt meter. He gets 245W from the Spectra and 133W from the BlackStar.


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## dunit (Feb 24, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I'm quite sure that the new Spectra 280W actually DRAWS 290W, based on recent tests. Check Irishboy thread over at 420. The numbers you are calculating are using not only the old lights but also the OLD marketing approach of GLH. Meaning, full of BS and confusion like most LED manufacturer web sites. The good news is that Mike from GLH seems committed to breaking the norm and stating only ACTUAL DRAWS and facts about his lights. We shall see once his updated web site goes up in a couple of weeks.
> 
> Bottom line is that the Spectra 280W draws 290W and the 450W draws 500W. Check user "supergravy" grow journal on 420 where he hooks up the Spectra 240W and BlackStar 240W to a Kill-a-Watt meter. He gets 245W from the Spectra and 133W from the BlackStar.


That is an awesome journal, thanks for that. Will be subbed on that one. Been waiting to see real results from a Blackstar and the fact that Spectra number will be confirmed again is an added bonus. I am stunned that the Blackstar is drawing just over half the power of the Spectra but putting out 86% of the light. All the engineering on LED's points towards not overdriving them as they lose efficiency and based on those numbers I can't help but feel that Spectra is running theirs a little high on the amps scale which would explain the higher wattage draw and lower proportional light output. 45% more power and producing 14% more light. Maybe this years models will be a bit more efficient as that is last years model. I know that Mike from GLH never claimed to be an engineer but is a grower and constantly evolving his product. One of the things I liked about GrowPerfect was that they are obviously growers and can answer real growing questions too. Definately some good similarities.

Looking at the colors looks like Blackstar and Spectra certainly are hitting different spectrums so certainly hope to see a clear winner one way or another on that one. 

Now I just need to run a Spectra against Magnum against Stealth Grow and have all the answers. If someone just wants to send me some free LED's I'll get right on it


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## medicine21 (Feb 24, 2011)

dunit said:


> I am stunned that the Blackstar is drawing just over half the power of the Spectra but *putting out 86% of the light*. All the engineering on LED's points towards not overdriving them as they lose efficiency and based on those numbers I can't help but feel that Spectra is running theirs a little high on the amps scale which would explain the higher wattage draw and lower proportional light output. 45% more power and producing 14% more light.
> Now I just need to run a Spectra against Magnum against Stealth Grow and have all the answers. If someone just wants to send me some free LED's I'll get right on it


Yeah, would love to see 2 Mags go up against 2 Spectra 290Ws each in a 4x4'! Can't help you with the free lights though, brother. 

Hmm, regarding this light intensity data, it seems we need to add another metric to evaluate various LED lights. I guess it would be Efficiency = light output/W drawn. How do we get these numbers?


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## dunit (Feb 24, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Where did you find these numbers about light output?
> 
> Yeah, would love to see 2 Mags go up against 2 Spectra 290Ws each in a 4x4'! Can't help you with the free lights though, brother.


That was from that link to the grow journal on 420. The guy running the side by side put a light meter on both panels. I actually think the Spectra will cover a bigger area than the Blackstar and that he should have the cabinet filled to demonstrate that so I feel it's not all that fair for Spectra but at least will show plant for plant performance.

Quite honestly I'm not so interested in running Spectra against Magnum as I think they are both great panels and wouldn't like to see either company lose business. I'd really like to run either or both against a lot of the shit lights out there and put those rip off artists out of business, but then again I think we should overthrow the government


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## medicine21 (Feb 24, 2011)

Yeah, I found it after looking through the thread again. Still curious whether it matters as much for LEDs or not.

Hehe. Well I don't see it that way exactly. Side by side comparisons of the best lights would tell us which one is better and the "loser" has got to improve their product or drop their price. So, I'll take the consumer stance on this and encourage exposure of market/product leaders who will get my money.


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## dunit (Feb 24, 2011)

So mean while back on the ranch we are in day 52 of flower. The ladies are bouncing back nicely although I feel they aren't as thick as they should have been without this lockout issue....but maybe I'm just greedy


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## BloodHoundsRule (Feb 24, 2011)

Anyone have the link for the Spectra website?


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## Gilfman (Feb 24, 2011)

BloodHoundsRule said:


> Anyone have the link for the Spectra website?


 growledhydro.com


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## BloodHoundsRule (Feb 24, 2011)

Gilfman said:


> growledhydro.com


 Thank you Gilfman.


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## dalamar999 (Feb 24, 2011)

Dunit; you've done a fantastic journal. I feel as a fellow canadian i can trust you. I've been growing for a few years and depending on strain but with 400 hps's i avg 0.5gpw. I hear everyone bullshit on these forums talking about 2lbs per 400 and i know its lies or maybe because they only run 1 or 2 lights. I grow GC and OG Kush and my plants avg 3ft tall but in a 12x12 room could 12 magnums produce 2400 grams? i would throw my ballasts in the fuckin garbage. And are those guys selling the mags willing to deal if i were to buy multiple lights and i would put up pics for sure. I'm gonna have to wait a week and see what you finish with to make my decision. Just antsy for totals.. I love the Oilers but Go Flames


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## dalamar999 (Feb 24, 2011)

oh and can you throw in a beer bottle or something in your pics to show scale? PS if you have a chance to get GC (green crack) clones do it up 45days and is top notch. But PK is totally solid. i also have a buddy who kicks ass with Diesel (original)


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## watchingcrotches (Feb 25, 2011)

dalamar999 said:


> Dunit; you've done a fantastic journal. I feel as a fellow canadian i can trust you. I've been growing for a few years and depending on strain but with 400 hps's i avg 0.5gpw. I hear everyone bullshit on these forums talking about 2lbs per 400 and i know its lies or maybe because they only run 1 or 2 lights. I grow GC and OG Kush and my plants avg 3ft tall but in a 12x12 room could 12 magnums produce 2400 grams? i would throw my ballasts in the fuckin garbage. And are those guys selling the mags willing to deal if i were to buy multiple lights and i would put up pics for sure. I'm gonna have to wait a week and see what you finish with to make my decision. Just antsy for totals.. I love the Oilers but Go Flames


I am going to get two for a 4x4 room. Those guys are willing to deduct $50 per unit for 6 or more and $100 per unit for 10 or more. Nice journal Dunit, it is the reason why i have decided to go with the Mags.


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## dunit (Feb 26, 2011)

dalamar999 said:


> oh and can you throw in a beer bottle or something in your pics to show scale? PS if you have a chance to get GC (green crack) clones do it up 45days and is top notch. But PK is totally solid. i also have a buddy who kicks ass with Diesel (original)


How bout a 26 of JD? I don't drink beer  Seriously though I'll try to throw something in for a pic. Heard good things about GC but trying to get my hands on Super Lemon Haze. Great some and awesome producer from what I hear.


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## dunit (Feb 26, 2011)

dalamar999 said:


> Dunit; you've done a fantastic journal. I feel as a fellow canadian i can trust you. I've been growing for a few years and depending on strain but with 400 hps's i avg 0.5gpw. I hear everyone bullshit on these forums talking about 2lbs per 400 and i know its lies or maybe because they only run 1 or 2 lights. I grow GC and OG Kush and my plants avg 3ft tall but in a 12x12 room could 12 magnums produce 2400 grams? i would throw my ballasts in the fuckin garbage. And are those guys selling the mags willing to deal if i were to buy multiple lights and i would put up pics for sure. I'm gonna have to wait a week and see what you finish with to make my decision. Just antsy for totals.. I love the Oilers but Go Flames


200 grams a panel I think is very doeable even without co2. I really figured I was on track to hit a pound before the nute lockout and I think I will still come close so the potential is definately there. The plants are no where near as bushy as would be ideal to make best use of the area. I'd like to think I could get 300-325 grams a panel once I get things dialed in.


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## dalamar999 (Feb 26, 2011)

i really appreciate your advice.. Such a huge investment..Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for HPS. I'm sure there's tons of people following this thread good luck and cant wait for your totals...take care and all the best


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## dunit (Feb 26, 2011)

dalamar999 said:


> i really appreciate your advice.. Such a huge investment..Hopefully this is the beginning of the end for HPS. I'm sure there's tons of people following this thread good luck and cant wait for your totals...take care and all the best


Well there's certainly a few people watching but I'm far from the big kid on the LED block. This is my first one and there's a few guys who've been doing LED for a while. Search LedBudGuy and Irishboy as they have completed ones. There are lots of others but those are the two I follow. I just started watching one over on 420 magazine forums who's just started a Blackstar vs Spectra side by side that should be interesting. 

The key with LED's is to realize that they have strengths and weaknesses and to work off their strengths. Really feel that LedBudGuy has been the one to nail it best so far and at 1.7 gram per watt he's killin it. I'm hoping to break a gram a watt on this one and with what I've learned try for 1.5 on the next one.


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## dalamar999 (Feb 27, 2011)

I was wondering too, do you think a large part of success with LED is related to using LED in veg for shorter node distances? So would you get less using HID veg and LED bud? I realize its more cost efficient to use LED for veg because of 18/6 but 75% of my hydro is used for flower.
Thanks for the thread ideas, i liked that those others guys kinda seemed like they were doubting the LED possibilities in the beginning but almost proved themselves wrong with good success. It looks almost easy to get close to 1g/watt. I use organics too so excess nutes should never be an issue. ledbudguy loves his ISIS but if the magnum 357 is a relative and the newest model it should be maybe the better choice. But 2 small ISIS for veg might be the way to go. Again big buds and salivations!


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## ojonice (Feb 28, 2011)

Now when u do you gram per watt are you going to do that on actual draw or on the stated 357watts?


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## dunit (Feb 28, 2011)

ojonice said:


> Now when u do you gram per watt are you going to do that on actual draw or on the stated 357watts?


Gonna do it versus actual draw as thats the only true measurement of prodction IMO


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## dunit (Feb 28, 2011)

Day 56 of flower. Pretty much all done. Gonna let them go till Thursday mostly because that's the only day I have time to cut down. They are crazy frosty and dense. Some of these nugz look like magazine ads  

Would have liked to see them fatten up a bit more but there is bud absolutely everywhere. I've always pruned when I was running HID, pretty much the same as the Al B Fuct system, all the inside lower stuff to get rid of the popcorn and push the energy to the outer colas. Will definately do that next round and got about a week until my Purple Kush are ready to trigger. Will post some pics of them shortly.


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## Cereall (Feb 28, 2011)

looking great

12 plants? aiming for 16 oz+? It looks like you should hit your mark... hard to tell with the purple leds but they sure look nice and frosty from a few of the pictures

cant wait to see purple kush's turn... im about to flip the switch on my purple kush and my first time growing it, so cant wait to see how it does under the LEDs


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## mad dog bark (Feb 28, 2011)

How do? r u doing another journal with the next batch you got in veg? b great if you do as wood love to c wot them lights can do on taller plants mayb a monster or 2. please dont mis read wot im saying as i really rate this journal and have learnt so much reading this not just on leds but growin in general. also you and others here always find the time to answer questions no matter how pointless they r. for me i was a few clicks away from buying a led panel off 1w leds till i found this place. now i feel i can understand the tech and no wot im looking for. 
Anyways on th now and your plants look great man. frosty. glad the mags can get these results
Talking of pointless questions i got yet another for you. in your view how much increase in bud do you hink running co2 adds to cannabis plants? do you think you could get simular results without? i mean if some1 only doing little grow 6 - 8 plants on a tight budget and has b stealthy as f**k could you get by without co2 or with a home made job using the yeast sugar and water and making co2 that way.?


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## slayer6669 (Feb 28, 2011)

just came in to check this thread out, im subbed. plants look good man


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## dalamar999 (Feb 28, 2011)

CO2.. for a small grow yeast and sugar does work but you need to be careful it can attract bugs and bugs are a constant battle for most growers. Bottled CO2 is expensive and you need to find a gas store that rents bottles and the timer and regulators are pricey and probly not worth it for what you are going to have. Simple air movement in and draw from a room you use regularly in your house or a furnace room where CO2 levels can be higher because of pilot lights. And your first purchase before lights even is a charcoal filter and fan.. Peace and good luck..


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## ColoradoLove (Feb 28, 2011)

Do you always keep the lights that far off the tops of the plants or are they just up for taking pictures?


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## dunit (Feb 28, 2011)

ColoradoLove said:


> Do you always keep the lights that far off the tops of the plants or are they just up for taking pictures?


Had them raised as I was in there pruning out the yellow leaves.


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## dunit (Feb 28, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> How do? r u doing another journal with the next batch you got in veg? b great if you do as wood love to c wot them lights can do on taller plants mayb a monster or 2. please dont mis read wot im saying as i really rate this journal and have learnt so much reading this not just on leds but growin in general. also you and others here always find the time to answer questions no matter how pointless they r. for me i was a few clicks away from buying a led panel off 1w leds till i found this place. now i feel i can understand the tech and no wot im looking for.
> Anyways on th now and your plants look great man. frosty. glad the mags can get these results
> Talking of pointless questions i got yet another for you. in your view how much increase in bud do you hink running co2 adds to cannabis plants? do you think you could get simular results without? i mean if some1 only doing little grow 6 - 8 plants on a tight budget and has b stealthy as f**k could you get by without co2 or with a home made job using the yeast sugar and water and making co2 that way.?


I'd say CO2 adds 15-25% depending on the strain and other atmospheric conditions. Main reason I run co2 is odor control. I run a sealed room so with no air in/out the plants would starve as they would deplete the environmental co2 very quickly. I have run free air systems with a carbon scrubber on the exhaust in the past and just find I have trouble maintaining negative pressure in the room during the dark cycle with the exhaust off so odor becomes an issue. I think that running some of the home made co2 remedies would work quite well with LED's as you definately need a small, sealed room to have those small co2 output systems operate properly.


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## medicine21 (Feb 28, 2011)

I didn't realize you had a sealed room and CO2. What do your temperatures look like in the day and night? Do you do anything to manage them?


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## dunit (Feb 28, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I didn't realize you had a sealed room and CO2. What do your temperatures look like in the day and night? Do you do anything to manage them?


I actaully had to insulate my room better to get the temp up but it is currently -17F outside. I actually put down a sub floor over the concrete and will probably lift it (it is interlocking 2x2 panels) for the summer to manage the temps. I am running the Magnums and a propane powered co2 burner. It sits at 85F daytime and I have a small ceramic heater that maintains 72-75F at night.


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## mad dog bark (Mar 1, 2011)

cheers fellas. you say can attract bugs doing homemade job?? food for thought. will look into it abit more and try find a co2 rental place.


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## stiffer (Mar 1, 2011)

do you think this company will be making a 5w led panel soon then?


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## dunit (Mar 1, 2011)

I have no idea and haven't asked. New or the latest technology is usually expensive and often has the issues associated with "first to market" products. Look at the issue Kessil has been having. Personally I'm happy as hell with my tested and true 3w panels and will wait for a few rounds of 5W prototypes before I jump in. I think that it all comes down to penetration. If you want to run 4 and 5 ft tall plants then 3W LED won't cut it and you will have to wait for larger wattage individual LED's but for what I want to do the 3W are doing great and can't wait to really dial them in.


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## Fredtrick Blunt (Mar 2, 2011)

I am rightly pissed that LBG is pissin outta here cuz the haters rippem so hard. Just wanted to put up some props, and say keep it growin strong. Let the 357's show what they got. I'm watchin and waiting til the end. Keep up the good work.

Tricky B.


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## mad dog bark (Mar 3, 2011)

Morning frm england. Hows them puppys getting on? today there final day? not even my plants and im excited to see how they getting on haha. good luck hope u get them results u after.


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## blunttrauma253 (Mar 4, 2011)

I tried to order the 357. The 1st time I paid their account got froze so I got my money refunded and I was asked to pay through pay pal and in a couple days of payment u received a call from Dave saying the pp acct was now froze and he refunded my money again. I really want to get this and do a test run for myself but for some reason I am having issues getting one. Anyone else have this happened?


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## dafoo (Mar 4, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> That does make sense, however it would not resolve my night time temp being too low, if that should happen. Although I guess that can come down to 18-20 Celcius at night without issues.
> 
> Got a response from 357Mag guys. The actual draw of the Magnum is 180W, so you were pretty close in your estimate. That is pretty incredible when compared to 1000W HPS lights and if claims are correct 3x357Mag > 2x1000W, or 540W LED outperform 2000W HPS.


I don't actually own a magnum, but from what I can tell with even the top of the line LED's out now, they take about 40% of the wattage of hid to get ACTUAL results.... they aren't miracle workers yet but, they definetely can and do work.
So if I was you I'd budget on needing more like 5 of them, possibly 6 for super dense coverage.


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## ojonice (Mar 4, 2011)

Fredtrick Blunt said:


> I am rightly pissed that LBG is pissin outta here cuz the haters rippem so hard. Just wanted to put up some props, and say keep it growin strong. Let the 357's show what they got. I'm watchin and waiting til the end. Keep up the good work.
> 
> Tricky B.


hehe ur the 357th post


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## dafoo (Mar 4, 2011)

Devilspawn said:


> http://www.gothamhydroponics.com/grow-lights/gotham-hydro-led-grow-lights/blackstar-240w-led-grow-light-3w-cree.html
> 
> Its a 240 W panel, ( Gen 7?) supposedly using 3W crees with mix of 60 and 120 degree for optimal penetration with 11 spectra but mostly the reds- I'm sure you can read their page. Says it will cover 4-6 sq ft and at $260 per looks a bit cheaper than the 357. May give it a shot and see what happens. Will probably keep UFos going too.
> 
> About to change the res out today. Flushing right now with reskleen Looks like I'm getting either Potasium def or nute burn with this trouble I have been having keeping pH down. Seeing tips browning on lower leaves and some spottting. I have been spraying with res water so that might have done it too. PPM is up to 1500 with all the damn pH down I have had to add with a little tap in the mix from my softener. Going to a 40ppm mix of DI and Poland Springs this am. Have it sitting and waiting to go at pH 5.8. Will add 400 pmm of the famous moon dust and 200 ppm of B-52 and see how they do. Have gotten some algea in tank and on starter plugs. Pulled all my non- starters and will cover up the unused pots with foil to block light in res- water isnt green though so I take that as a plus- just on sides on tank. Still on a 24 hr veg and my widows are thriving as are the two carms under the two 90w ufos.


Just to clarify like many people before... a Blackstar 240w draws an actual 140w and when planning space covering needs to be treated as a 140w LED.
When the companies say there base coverage area (4-6 feet in this case) it's at best for vegging. I'm not trying to call Lighthouse "liars" because almost all companies do similar inflated "w ratings", but it definetely is something to take in to account when pricing.
From what my understanding from many of the successfull LED grow through to harvest is that about %40-%50 wattage of HID needs to be used in LED's to do similar outputs... and also more success has been had using several smaller units as opposed to fewer larger... say 2 200w's having better results than 1 450w LED for example, but thats allways been the same case when I came to HID as well (600's over 1000's).


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## medicine21 (Mar 4, 2011)

dafoo said:


> I don't actually own a magnum, but from what I can tell with even the top of the line LED's out now, they take about 40% of the wattage of hid to get ACTUAL results.... they aren't miracle workers yet but, they definetely can and do work.
> So if I was you I'd budget on needing more like 5 of them, possibly 6 for super dense coverage.


That was an old post of mine you dug up. After much more research I cannot believe the 3x357Mag > 2X1000W claim. Now I am budgeting more 70%-80% LED power to at least match (and possible exceed) HID.


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## dunit (Mar 4, 2011)

So I was supposed to cut down yesterday but ended up having to go out of town so the ladies are sitting in darkness for 72 hours and will then get the chop. I don't usually do the 72 hour thing but couldn't exactly leave everything running for three days unattended so gonna give it a try


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## shand (Mar 4, 2011)

dunit said:


> So I was supposed to cut down yesterday but ended up having to go out of town so the ladies are sitting in darkness for 72 hours and will then get the chop. I don't usually do the 72 hour thing but couldn't exactly leave everything running for three days unattended so gonna give it a try


Aww! Haha.. I was looking forward to a Thursday harvest  Can't wait to see it!


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## rasputin71 (Mar 4, 2011)

You wont be disappointed. 72 hours of darkness works. I tried no dark period, 24 hours, 48, and finally 72. 

If you wan't to check out something else to try on one of your plants for your next grow, check out this thread. I am sold on it already. - https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/409622-truth-about-flushing.html


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## Devilspawn (Mar 5, 2011)

looking great. my grow is a mess after my airstone clogged up and root rot took over. revegging now but what a heartbreak...widows were huge before getting wiped out


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## yowzza (Mar 5, 2011)

Hey Dunit! Cant wait to see out it all turned out!


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## smhsmichael (Mar 6, 2011)

same here. im hooked! haha


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## dafoo (Mar 6, 2011)

ledbudguy said:


> I'd run with ANYTHING other than a "crapstar"... stealthgrow, isis and 357 are your best bets... Buying LEDs is like buying anything else, you get what you pay for. Crapstar is cheap shit which is always an option but if you want results go with one of the quality lines out there.



Actually the only guy I've actually talked to who's finished a grow with one really was happy with the Blackstar 240w.... 
Yes they are the value brand in the (non-chinesed) LED market... but I think you're making assumptions on a branding you for whatever reason you don't like.
And for the record after considering all I got a Spectra... can't beat the 5 year warranty. lol


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## dafoo (Mar 6, 2011)

BloodHoundsRule said:


> Anyone have the link for the Spectra website?


http://growledhydro.com/index.html

Ignore the old info, just click on the panels and read the first paragraph.
I ordered the 290w... call and talk to the guy for a deal, I got $40 off and free shipping.
What made me go with them was the warranty all said and done.
Do I know if they are any better than the rest... no not really, but at least my expensive shining toy from these guys will still be working in 5 years... lol
oh my I hope I didn't just waste 600 bucks! 
HA


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## dafoo (Mar 6, 2011)

dunit said:


> I actaully had to insulate my room better to get the temp up but it is currently -17F outside. I actually put down a sub floor over the concrete and will probably lift it (it is interlocking 2x2 panels) for the summer to manage the temps. I am running the Magnums and a propane powered co2 burner. It sits at 85F daytime and I have a small ceramic heater that maintains 72-75F at night.


ARGH!!! Whats with all the imperial?!?
Your a fellow 'nuck, use metric so I know what you're saying!!! lol
No seriously... keep the good work up.
Peace from Oil Country


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## ColoradoLove (Mar 6, 2011)

We want harvest pictures!


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## dunit (Mar 6, 2011)

dafoo said:


> ARGH!!! Whats with all the imperial?!?
> Your a fellow 'nuck, use metric so I know what you're saying!!! lol
> No seriously... keep the good work up.
> Peace from Oil Country


Everytime I use metric I get a zillion questions asking for the conversions from our southern brothers


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## dunit (Mar 6, 2011)

ColoradoLove said:


> We want harvest pictures!


Lol! I'm trying. Been a long weekend flying half way across the country, funeral, wake, recover, fly home. Anyway I got home tonite and got straight to stripping the plants. I have a Trip Reaper that I use (makes life soooo much easier) and I'll be putting them through the spin cycle tommorrow and laying them out and I'll take lots of close ups. I took a bunch of pics of the stripped plants tonite but used the wifes camera and it wasn't set up on auto so having focus issues I think but will ask her to look at them tomorrow and see what I can salvage. 

They didn't fatten up quite like I would have liked and think the nute lock-out hurt me pretty good but the crystal is absolutely retarded. Looks like they were snowed on.


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## shand (Mar 6, 2011)

dunit's back!
is it chopping time now??

you have my sword.. and my AXE


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## yowzza (Mar 6, 2011)

It must be harvest time considering how quick people are responding! lol


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## dunit (Mar 6, 2011)

shand said:


> dunit's back!
> is it chopping time now??
> 
> you have my sword.. and my AXE





yowzza said:


> It must be harvest time considering how quick people are responding! lol


LOR quotes....sweet  

Looking at the crystal on these buds I'll be talking elvish pretty soon.

Yes it's harvest time. Just got back tonite and will def try to live up to my pictoral responsibilites tomorrow.


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## dafoo (Mar 6, 2011)

yowzza said:


> It must be harvest time considering how quick people are responding! lol


Love em, Like em or Hate em... everybody wants to see whats goin on with the LED's.


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## jusdnx808 (Mar 7, 2011)

so dunit...what website did you get the magnums from?


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## medicine21 (Mar 7, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> You wont be disappointed. 72 hours of darkness works. I tried no dark period, 24 hours, 48, and finally 72.


When you do 72 hours of darkness, do you give them water or let them go dry?


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## rasputin71 (Mar 7, 2011)

The first one I let go dry, and it certainly helped with the ripening/finishing. The last ones I harvested I drowned during their last day of 12/12. The next ones I harvest I plan to let go under the lights longer, until they are ready, and the I will drown them and leave them under the lights until they quit drinking, and then put them in the dark and keep them drowned. I also cut and hang my plants whole and dont trim the fan leaves until after 5 - 7 days hanging but my dark/drying room is unusually cold/dry.


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## medicine21 (Mar 7, 2011)

...and while we wait for dunit to trim up his nuggs , Rasputin, which method out of those in your experience provides the ripest most resiny buds?


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## rasputin71 (Mar 7, 2011)

I am a newb, and don't have enough experience to say. Try em all, and let me know.


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## mad dog bark (Mar 8, 2011)

anybody else having trouble getting activated at led bud guys new site?


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## Cereall (Mar 8, 2011)

nope.... was throwing an error the first few days but registration was fine after that...


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## shand (Mar 8, 2011)

dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit dunit BATMAN


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## dunit (Mar 9, 2011)

Well sorry for all the delays. Way too much going on and not enough time. On top of it apparently the last person who used my Trip Reaper broke it and forgot to mention it so its been hand trimming which I detest. Not that it doesn't prodce the best results, it just happens to agravate my condition. Kinda glad I am hand trimming because the crystal on these things is just outright freaky and would hate to lose any in the tumbling process. Here are some preliminary pictures. You will notice there are only 8 plants in the pics and I was running 12. That's because I stripped the nugz off four plants and threw them in the reaper until I realized it wasn't working so now have to hand trim a bunch of individual nugz that are already off the plants 

Of course these aren't final trimmed but I go through and get off all the big leaves and rough trim first and then do a final manicure after. At least with most of the foliage gone you can get an idea of what the bugs look like.

My initial reaction is that for such small plants that weren't pruned properly and had nute lockout during the critical 7th week they nugged up pretty good. Certainly impressed with the penetration of these lights as even the nugz at the bottom are nice and hard.


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## dunit (Mar 9, 2011)

Gonna start a seperate thread when I find the time but here's the 9 Purple Kush that just went 12/12 today  

Gonna try to run the next thread a whole lot more consistent because my updates were all over the place on this one.

Only running nine as they are bigger plants and in bigger pots. That is a 4x4 flood and drain table they are in.

In my experience Purple Kush stretches a bit and gets quite bushy so hopefully I've nailed my coverage area a 
little better on this one as had a fair bit of wasted space in the last one


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## dafoo (Mar 9, 2011)

Looking good man




dunit said:


> Well sorry for all the delays. Way too much going on and not enough time. On top of it apparently the last person who used my Trip Reaper broke it and forgot to mention it so its been hand trimming which I detest. Not that it doesn't prodce the best results, it just happens to agravate my condition. Kinda glad I am hand trimming because the crystal on these things is just outright freaky and would hate to lose any in the tumbling process. Here are some preliminary pictures. You will notice there are only 8 plants in the pics and I was running 12. That's because I stripped the nugz off four plants and threw them in the reaper until I realized it wasn't working so now have to hand trim a bunch of individual nugz that are already off the plants
> 
> Of course these aren't final trimmed but I go through and get off all the big leaves and rough trim first and then do a final manicure after. At least with most of the foliage gone you can get an idea of what the bugs look like.
> 
> My initial reaction is that for such small plants that weren't pruned properly and had nute lockout during the critical 7th week they nugged up pretty good. Certainly impressed with the penetration of these lights as even the nugz at the bottom are nice and hard.


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## mad dog bark (Mar 9, 2011)

nice looking plants. looking forward to seeing final weight.


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## mad dog bark (Mar 9, 2011)

Cereall said:


> nope.... was throwing an error the first few days but registration was fine after that...


man tried two times over last3 days and had no activation message sent. gutted


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## dunit (Mar 9, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> man tried two times over last3 days and had no activation message sent. gutted


Check your junk file for the activation message. Thats where mine was


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## Devilspawn (Mar 9, 2011)

mad dog bark said:


> anybody else having trouble getting activated at led bud guys new site?


 
Nope works fine for me


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## mad dog bark (Mar 9, 2011)

dunit said:


> Check your junk file for the activation message. Thats where mine was


yep that where message was. top man thanks.
see you doing less plants this time around. are you vegging these ones longer? or just a tall/bigger strain. wot size you looking at growing to? you aiming for 1 1/2 - 2 oz a plant this time around?


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## medicine21 (Mar 9, 2011)

nice, one, dunit! Congrats on completing this grow.  Let's get some natural light pics and close ups!


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## surgedup (Mar 10, 2011)

what was that final weight there dunit ...... anticipation is killing me


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## Cereall (Mar 10, 2011)

dun dun dun

yes the anticipation is killing me too!

anxious to see some quality led bud and your final weight.. more excited for your next grow as im sure you learned a few things about these lights to improve for next time!


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## rasputin71 (Mar 11, 2011)

surgedup said:


> what was that final weight there dunit ...... anticipation is killing me


I would expect he is trying to let them dry. He only posted a pic 24 hours ago, and they weren't even harvested yet, just trimmed. I still dont understand why people trim fan leaves before harvesting or drying.


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## medicine21 (Mar 11, 2011)

I trim and manicure before drying because it is much easier to do so with wet rather than dry buds. I wear a mask but I still sneeze and wheeze for 2 weeks after harvest after trimming for 3 hard days. I think I'd croak if I manicured dried buds...


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## rasputin71 (Mar 11, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I trim and manicure before drying because it is much easier to do so with wet rather than dry buds. .......


I have done it both ways, and I disagree. Most importantly, the final product is better if you dry it with the plant intact, IME. I won't hijack any further though.


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## Cereall (Mar 11, 2011)

I do before doing trimming also, equity for me to trim close and then leaves dry and recede in more leaving only nice buds.

Tried after doing once and was hard to do with leaves all crunchy and not sticking straight out


Rasputin...why do you do after? Not trying to debate or say your wrong, just like to hear another opinion and see if that would benefit me. 
Thanks


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## rasputin71 (Mar 11, 2011)

It helps slow the drying process (I have real low humidity) and it helps to begin the fermentation/curing process sooner. The buds need whats left in those leaves to begin curing while drying. I also drown my plants for a few days under the lights, and a few days in the dark, before I cut and hang the whole plant for 6 or 7 days. 

I trim the fan leaves off about the time they get crispy but the sugar leafs and buds are still sticky. The last 2 plants took about 6 days before I trimmed them and then I left them hang/lay out for another 12 - 24 hours before I began curing in jars. My first plants I cut, trimmed, and hung to dry, had crispy/brittle buds after 4 days and didnt taste as good after 2 weeks cure as my drowned plants do 7 days after chop.

Here is a thread if you want to read up on it more - https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/409622-truth-about-flushing.html


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## dunit (Mar 13, 2011)

Okay I keep promising to get caught up and just lots of crazy shit going on and I don't mean to leave everyone hanging but on that note...

I would like to add a personal note pertaining to security and such. Even though I have a liscense I don't grow in my own home as I have children. I spent most of the weekend trying to help a friend who is also an RX grower but had his children removed from his home friday by Child Services because he grows (legally) there and his ex complained. It has been an eye opening experience and keep it clean because the authorities play dirty. 

Anyway, the weigh in is still a couple days out. Trimmed em up a few days ago and been running in to fluff them and bag and sweat them but not much time for pics. Ended up getting my Trim Reaper working and to use them properly you have to pull each individual bud off the stems so you don't see the big dry colas which is what everyone likes to see but oh well. 

Anyway here's the pics. That's a standard 60 watt incandescent bulb in the pic for reference. They have had one sweat and will go into bags for their final sweat before into jars for curing. 

Hope to have a weight pretty quick.

Enjoy the pics


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## shand (Mar 14, 2011)

They look delicious and the yield looks decent too


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## dunit (Mar 14, 2011)

shand said:


> They look delicious and the yield looks decent too


I know I didn't reach LedBudGuy s benchmarch but I feel I did decent especially in light of the nute issues. They are having their last sweat right now and then the weight should be accurate and after that I can just cure.


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## dunit (Mar 14, 2011)

My new journal with the Purple Kush

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/416863-9-purple-kush-under-360-a.html


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## fairladyz (Mar 16, 2011)

So what was the total weigh in of the 12 pots under these 2 mags? very interested


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## yowzza (Mar 16, 2011)

I'm gonna take a stab at it and say 11.5 zips!  
Just my guess... Happy harvest


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## surgedup (Mar 16, 2011)

Maybe little over half a pound ?


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## surgedup (Mar 16, 2011)

dunit what was your final weight there bro been waiting for a week now ...


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## dunit (Mar 16, 2011)

Well I seem to be having an issue uploading pics and have tried three times today. May have to go on my old comp with a different browser and see if that works. 

So as to give a sneak a peak.... 

I am currently at *331 grams* and the RH is a touch high but I also just fluffed them and brought the dampest stuff to the top so once it all evens out I don't think it will drop much more. My actual draw from two Magnums is 360 watts. 

It's taking forever to dry and probably because the resin and crystal seems to be damn near coating the fuckers 

So I know this is going to sound greedy but I'm wondering what I would have hit if I hadn't had the nute issue in week 7. Certainly sold on LED from here on in as basically I screwed up the grow a bit and looks like I'll still hit about .9 grams per watt which is better than the best grow I ever did under HID......and I did lots. This industry has certainly come a long way from when I first tried LED's a couple years ago. Shop carefully and I don't think you'll be disappointed.

Pics tomorrow come hell or high water


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## Cereall (Mar 16, 2011)

Awesome to hear... good job

I would be happy with .9 GPW any day, especially on your first LED grow with the new lights and running into a slight issue towards the end

Look forward to your next grow journal as it seems like it takes a grow on the lights to get everything tweaked in nice


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## stiffer (Mar 18, 2011)

would you say for yield 600w hps is still the way to go atm?.


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## Chronix (Mar 18, 2011)

Hell or high water plzzzzz


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## dunit (Mar 20, 2011)

Chronix said:


> Hell or high water plzzzzz


Lol....my bad. What a brutal week. But good thinks happening 

So theres two zip-loc bags so subtract 24 grams for them and we are at 327 grams of dried bud just just over .9 grams per watt. Definately not bad for a first pull with LED's with some issues along the way. 



Anyone want better pics gonna steal a scale from a buddy and put the bud in the scale bowl and take some pics.


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## dunit (Mar 20, 2011)

stiffer said:


> would you say for yield 600w hps is still the way to go atm?.


Well I just had my first LED run and screwed up a bit and still got .9 grams per watt which eclipsed the best run I ever got under HID (which was with 600's). Other than their start up price being tought to swallow I really think that once you make the investment, as long as its a decent panel, they you'll never look back


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## rasputin71 (Mar 20, 2011)

dunit said:


> Well I just had my first LED run and screwed up a bit and still got .9 grams per watt which eclipsed the best run I ever got under HID (which was with 600's). Other than their start up price being tought to swallow I really think that once you make the investment, as long as its a decent panel, they you'll never look back


I ended up just adding a 400w MH horti in a batwing to my flower box (with the 600w air-cooled HPS) for now, but I am definitely considering LED (if I can afford the extra cost) if/when I get a patient to have me as their caregiver. Then I can double my plant count, order a tent and some LEDs, and maybe run a comparison of 1kw mixed spectrum vs LED.


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## dunit (Mar 20, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> I ended up just adding a 400w MH horti in a batwing to my flower box (with the 600w air-cooled HPS) for now, but I am definitely considering LED (if I can afford the extra cost) if/when I get a patient to have me as their caregiver. Then I can double my plant count, order a tent and some LEDs, and maybe run a comparison of 1kw mixed spectrum vs LED.


You wont be dissapointed with the MH HPS combo and I think you'll find the plants stay healthier longer. I know in my HPS days there was always lots of yellowing towards the end which a very tech minded grower friend told me was not just the plants sucking out but degredation of the clorophyll due to the spectrum shortfall of HPS in the blue peaks. He ran MH HPS combo and never saw the same yellowing I did. 

I really think that's where good LED's nail it because they really tailor the light to maximize the par absorbtion.

Looks like I might end up being caregiver also in the near future and then I will really have the plant numbers to do a few comparisons of my own


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## rasputin71 (Mar 20, 2011)

dunit said:


> You wont be dissapointed with the MH HPS combo and I think you'll find the plants stay healthier longer. I know in my HPS days there was always lots of yellowing towards the end which a very tech minded grower friend told me was not just the plants sucking out but degredation of the clorophyll due to the spectrum shortfall of HPS in the blue peaks. He ran MH HPS combo and never saw the same yellowing I did. ....


I am trying to keep 5 in flower, spaced 2 weeks apart. They spend the first 4 weeks on the 400w MH dominant side to reduce stretch, the next 4 weeks under the HPS side, and the final 2 weeks in the center (hopefully) getting both spectrums.


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## rasputin71 (Mar 22, 2011)

quit spammin


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## dunit (Mar 22, 2011)

rasputin71 said:


> I am trying to keep 5 in flower, spaced 2 weeks apart. They spend the first 4 weeks on the 400w MH dominant side to reduce stretch, the next 4 weeks under the HPS side, and the final 2 weeks in the center (hopefully) getting both spectrums.


That sounds like a great plan. If I was still running HPS I'd definately be keeping MH for early flowering. My original plan was to have a three stage grow (a month apart) but hoping to kick it up to a five stage grow and have them three weeks apart. Gotta work with the plant numbers though so we'll see how that pans out


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## ColoradoLove (Mar 23, 2011)

Run a bunch of 9 week strains and you can rock 3 in flower 3 in veg 3 weeks apart


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## alexarasbest (Mar 24, 2011)

what is the exact name of the 170w led lights you used?and where did you get them?


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## dunit (Mar 24, 2011)

alexarasbest said:


> what is the exact name of the 170w led lights you used?and where did you get them?


I vegged under a single ISIS-1 170 (which has an actual draw of 120 watts) and the flowering was done under two 357 Magnums (which have actual draws of 180 watts). I ordered the ISIS from ledgrowlightsdirect. The Magnums I ordered online also and I think the site was www.357led.com and I know it's back in this thread somewhere but just googled them and looks like there's a bunch of sites/reps now so not 100% sure which one I ordered from. They are both from the same parent company from what I understand.


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## Rian (Mar 24, 2011)

Love your led grows dunit. I'm thinking about picking up the 357 magnums myself. the website didnt allow me to use my credit card though...only money wire or money order. did u have to use the same payment methods? i just dont want to get ripped off =/


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## dunit (Mar 24, 2011)

Rian said:


> Love your led grows dunit. I'm thinking about picking up the 357 magnums myself. the website didnt allow me to use my credit card though...only money wire or money order. did u have to use the same payment methods? i just dont want to get ripped off =/


The first time I ordered I used CC. One of my friends ordered and used paypal. When I went to order the second time neither option was available so I emailed and asked WTF. The response I got was that paypal and their merchant account (visa/mc) had flagged them as drug related and they have to have a security screening to determine it's a legitimate business and its gonna take up to six weeks to get cleared. That was about three weeks ago. Paypal, Visa, MC are all US based (for a Canadian company) and the DEA are a pretty terrifying bunch so not surprised they cover their ass. 

I guess there's a downside to actually posting on your website what they are designed to do. 
I wondered about the "truth in advertising" when I first saw their website and sounds like it's biting them in the ass.

I am in Canada and so are they so for me I wasn't worried as I sent a wire transfer from one canadian bank to another. Wasn't like I was mailing a money order off shore. I'm cautious by nature so I did do a little research and their parent company was registered in Sept 2008 so not exactly fly by nite. Their registered business address is an actual physical address in Duncan, Vancouver Island, British Columbia and not some PO box.

That's about all the assurance I can give you. I can't guarantee your lights will show up but mine did. I just ordered another ISIS for veg and that should be here in a week so I'll let you know when that shows up. 

I used to thing that Paypal made a company legit and I'm still waiting for refunds or a Toyota key FOB, iphone case and oakley sunglasses all ordered from seperate ebay power sellers and paid for through paypal. My "disputes" are more than a year old and one is three years. 

Paypal sucks and sure doesn't make a business legit so no matter who you order from do some research!


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## filenid (Apr 17, 2011)

was readin through from the beginning but ran out of time so sorry if its already been discussed... ledbudguy pulled down over 700+ grms with 850 watts led but thats running 5 isis wich is there advertised wattage.... the web site says 120 watt actual draw sooooooooooo its a lil more like 700+ grms on 600 watts of actual draw wich makes it more like 1.2 grms per watt (or somewhere close seemin i cant remember his exact weigh in).... correct me if im wrong or missed sumthin but thats a lil more impressive than the already impressive "almost 1 grm per watt" acclaim from his journal!!!


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## dunit (Apr 17, 2011)

filenid said:


> was readin through from the beginning but ran out of time so sorry if its already been discussed... ledbudguy pulled down over 700+ grms with 850 watts led but thats running 5 isis wich is there advertised wattage.... the web site says 120 watt actual draw sooooooooooo its a lil more like 700+ grms on 600 watts of actual draw wich makes it more like 1.2 grms per watt (or somewhere close seemin i cant remember his exact weigh in).... correct me if im wrong or missed sumthin but thats a lil more impressive than the already impressive "almost 1 grm per watt" acclaim from his journal!!!


He pulled 762 grams off 600 watts actual draw. 1.27 grams per watt. He set the benchmark. He's cutting down his newest one tonite and looks like he's gonna wax that record.


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