# NEW Closet Set Up for L.E.D. Stealth Grow



## Serapis (Jul 23, 2010)

Let me start briefly shouting out to all the others that have gone out before me and posted journals, guides and tips. I have lurked and studied for nearly 2 years and finally made the move. I ordered 10 feminized Bubbleicious seeds from Nirvana as well as a germ kit and fert tabs to cover germination and feeding while in vegetative growth. 

I decided to go LED simply because this is a stealthy set up without a high power bill or heat and heat signatures that can be picked up easily by police chopper cams. This set up stays at 84 degrees with fans off.

The closet is a walk in, 52" x 72". I am only using 2' x 52", however on two levels. The level below will be air tight and utilize 4 x 40w T8 Cool White 4100k 4' that sit right on top of cuttings or seedlings. The top shelf and the front of the bottom will be finished with insulation board. A 6" duct brings air in from outside closet near floor level. The baffle on the diffuser is adjustable, so I can somewhat control air temp inside by increasing or decreasing air flow. Ventillation will be passive/aggressive with timed air flushes of 10 minutes per hour.

Intake air is drawn in through diffuser by a 6" inline Home Depot duct fan that pulls 160 CFM into the lower veg space. A 6" wall pass through fan will draw exhaust out into an adjoining master bath room near the ceiling.

I've covered the rear wall of grow space with 12" x 12" LED panels bought off of eBay. These things are bright. They were plugged in and tested, then fastened to wall using velcro tape with a super strong adhesive on backs. I have a couple of 120W HTG TRiband LED overhead lights on the way, hopefully by Monday. The walls closet adjoins to are cinderblocks and concrete. Room doubles as a storm shelter.

Comments are very welcome. I intend to clone and grow cuttings below and have 3 cycles flowering above. Please don't advise me to use other lights. I've made the investment and I'll suffer a slightly smaller yield.

I'm using 3 totes that each have 6 6" black pots. Fox Farm soil for vegging plus the sol tab from Nirvana means I can veg for 3-4 weeks without feeding. I'll flush soil when I move to flowering and begin a liquid, low Nitro, high Phospherous diet for the flowering stage.

More to come on the build. Here is what i have so far....


View attachment 1059553View attachment 1059555View attachment 1059556View attachment 1059554View attachment 1059552


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## tranquility (Jul 23, 2010)

nice set-up man...im lookin forward to seeing how the plants are gonna grow. LED's are a mystery to me.im subd man and cant wait to see more pics of ur plants.
peace


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## Serapis (Jul 23, 2010)

Thanks. I've gone over this design so many times in my head that this is coming together rather easily. I didn't expect to have to get so much of the stuff from online. I even found a great deal on worm castings shipped right to the door.  I'm still looking for a net or mesh to support upper growth. Thought I'd use a chicken wire, but damn it's exoensive. 

I'll be starting a journal as soon as Nirvana blesses me with her presence.


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## tranquility (Jul 23, 2010)

np. i hear ya...my setup have gone smooth too, like it meant to happen  lol. ive been waiting for HTG to bless my presence with a 150w hps. it came this morning and im so fuckin stoked. you know whats cheaper than chicken wire?.....string, if you can intertwine the string in little squares is works great...been doing that for a while. 
ill be starting my 150w journal on my already flowering plants ans soon as i get it setup if you wanna check it out. right now i have my cfl grow if you wanna check that out.
ok peace man


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## HistoryPuff (Jul 23, 2010)

subscribed. good luck.


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## Serapis (Jul 23, 2010)

Thanks guys. I'm waiting on UPS now, they are bringing me intake fans and an exhaust fan pictured here..






I hope to get these and the black out panda poly curtain installed tonight. I might also finish light proofing the nursery below. My HTG 120w overhead won't be here til Monday. I'm debating giving LEDlady some business for the next one, maybe a 206W. I'm not sure yet. Anyone have experience with the HTG 120W 3rd generation overhead? The footprint they suggest seems exaggerated to me. I would not expect a 120w to cover 25' sq for flowering. I hope to update tonight after installing what the UPS man brings me today.

Peace out!


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## Serapis (Jul 24, 2010)

I have the pass through fan installed. It exhausts the upper air in the closet directly into my master bath room. I've decided to go overboard with ventilation, in case I have to switch to hid or mh lighting. My goal is to stick with LEDs and keep the bills down. I have a second inline duct fan on the way, but will hold off on installing it for now. I'm maintaining 82 degrees with the exhaust fan alone. I'll get the nursery light proofed and update again tomorrow after intakes and exhausts are active.. Fingers are crossed for Nirvana delivery soon. One or two of those beauts will become a mom. Here are shots of the wall pass through with 3 prong plug.... Neat way to pass air between rooms.


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## LadyGizmo (Jul 24, 2010)

Love the set up. 
Ill be keepin tabs on this one.
Can not wait to see the out come. 
--subd--


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## Serapis (Jul 24, 2010)

Power power everywhere. I bought plenty of strips, just not enough extension cords. I need run to Lowes yet again to take care of that.

I did get the intake fan wired and installed to the intake duct. I also cut a vent hole in the top of my shelf to allow air to exit the nursery below and enter the flowering room. The air will be blown across the plant by a 10" wall fan from Lowes and then sucked out by the wall pass through fan that was installed earlier. I think I'm going to put the intake and exhaust on a timer to allow them to run for about 10 minutes per hour. This way, If I do introduce co2 in the future, I'm not wasting it with a constant flow. To be honest, I may use seltzer water in a mister to get co2 into the garden. I do need to do more research on that. I'm not savy about going through sugar and yeast. Several website forums on growing and a couple of devoted magazines all agree that it does work, so I'll be trying it.

AS I wait for seeds and overhead lights, I'm starting to consider how I'm going to introduce water into the garden. I have a master bath right next door to the garden, however our water is very hard. I'm going to read up on rain water harvesting and see about setting up a timed watering system for my soil pots. If I find that too difficult, I will still set up a water reservoir with an air pump and some stones to aerate the water and introduce some oxygen to the roots.

I'm open to any suggestions or ideas or comments on what I've done. This is my first grow set up and I'm excited. I've been waiting and planning for more than 2 years and finally have the means to do it.


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## amnooneoo (Jul 24, 2010)

sub'ed, Nice setup. I have 4 tri-band panels like that setup in a very small space, are those dual or tri-band? Cant wait to see your results!!!!


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## Serapis (Jul 24, 2010)

The side lighting panels are dual bands from Evo-Lux. The overheads are tri-bands. 

The fans are super quiet. I'm sitting right outside the closet and cannot hear them. I have all lights and fans running 24/7 now to ensure their integrity before the grow begins.


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## luckyskindaguy (Jul 24, 2010)

I hope you figure out the watering system. Sounds like you have plenty of time since you could always hand water for a bit. It will take a few weeks for the seeds to grow into any decent height plant. One tip I would giv eis make sure you have your lights just a few inches away from the tops of the plants. Adjustable lighting height is a MUST in my mind. I have an LED UFO style light fixed to the the top of my 39" flowering cabinet and the buds don't form if they are too far away. Right now my plants are tall enough to be close to the light, but that is an adjustment I will be making to my grow in about 3 weeks. I will mount all lights onto a board that is suspended by chains that I can raise and lower as needed.

If you have the time, you might want to browse my grow journal (link is in my sig.) I have a few issues that I have battled through that might help you jumpstart your growing career! I have only been growing for a year, so I have lots of "growing pains" that I have documented.

Best of luck!


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## Serapis (Jul 24, 2010)

I have finished the work on the nursery and closed her up.

I ditched the 4100k flouros and went with 6500k cool daylights. A 2 pack at Wally World was only $5.**. What a difference. The Basil plant is eating it up. 

The intake and exhaust is finally hooked up to a timer. They run 20 minutes every 2 hours to bring in fresh air.

check out the pics. The insulation board is glowing. The light is passing through a bit, but it's ok. Bottom of shelf will have panda poly and a black out curtain is going up as soon as overheads and fans are in.

The blue storage tote will be my water reservoir. I have an air pump for a 60 gal aquarium and a 2' air stone. I also got a big bag of gravel for the bottom to keep the air stone down and to keep from having to see a bland bottom  

Will I need to worry about algae? treat like a fish tank?

Comments, suggestions, flames? All welcome.


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## Serapis (Jul 24, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> I hope you figure out the watering system. Sounds like you have plenty of time since you could always hand water for a bit. It will take a few weeks for the seeds to grow into any decent height plant. One tip I would giv eis make sure you have your lights just a few inches away from the tops of the plants. Adjustable lighting height is a MUST in my mind. I have an LED UFO style light fixed to the the top of my 39" flowering cabinet and the buds don't form if they are too far away. Right now my plants are tall enough to be close to the light, but that is an adjustment I will be making to my grow in about 3 weeks. I will mount all lights onto a board that is suspended by chains that I can raise and lower as needed.
> 
> If you have the time, you might want to browse my grow journal (link is in my sig.) I have a few issues that I have battled through that might help you jumpstart your growing career! I have only been growing for a year, so I have lots of "growing pains" that I have documented.
> 
> Best of luck!


I appreciate the tip. Since this may be a staged flowering unit with various stages of bud, I'm gonna keep the light height adjustments separate. I will be using a rope and pulley system with wall cleats. 

thanks for the help, I'm off to view your grow!


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## luckyskindaguy (Jul 24, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I have finished the work on the nursery and closed her up.
> 
> I ditched the 4100k flouros and went with 6500k cool daylights. A 2 pack at Wally World was only $5.**. What a difference. The Basil plant is eating it up.
> 
> ...


I have found using 1 tsp Hydrogen peroxide/gal of water keeps my algae in check and adds to the root's health. I use it in veg and flowering


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## oOBe RyeOo (Jul 24, 2010)

I'm interested in how the L.E.D. will work for you. I'm sub'd.


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## Serapis (Jul 24, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> I have found using 1 tsp Hydrogen peroxide/gal of water keeps my algae in check and adds to the root's health. I use it in veg and flowering



That is an awesome tip. I had read that somewhere else before. They said to use food grade? I'm also running an aerator set up and the reservoir is dark. I'm hoping that, and your idea keeps algae in check. I'm getting some buckets for catching rain water. I hope for rain soon or I'll have to start off with store bought distilled.


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## Serapis (Jul 25, 2010)

The closet is nearly complete. Today I installed the flowering chamber fan and panda poly. I also made up a black out curtain using panda poly, an adjustable shower curtain rod and shower curtain rings. I just used a hole punch every 6" and left a 6" flap on both ends in the center. I left 2' on each wall end, and folded it in and stapled it to the side walls. Velcro strips seal the curtain at the center. The top has a piece of plastic stapled to ceiling and pulled down in front to ensure no light gets in.

My next project is to get the water reservoir and aerator set up. If I had any nute and hydro experience, I'd run a drip system on a timer, but I may mix that in with soil. I'm potting soil, however pots will sit on bed of river rock to keep pots above run off. I'll be keeping my eye out for a large tray for an ebb and flow system for my flowering chamber. In the mean time, the water reservoir will serve as an aerator to oxygenate the water for healthier roots. I have a nice long air stone and a 60 gal air pump. I've got 8 gallons of distilled water, so I'm going to set that up right now.


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## RoF (Jul 25, 2010)

Vertical LED GROW? That looks pretty crazy man. I assume all those lights are running on... 360W of power?


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## Serapis (Jul 25, 2010)

The panels are side lighting. I'm waiting for the overheads to be delivered. The total wattage on the sides is 56w x 2 = 112w. Just keep in mind, as I'm sure you know by looking at your avatar, you can't compare LED wattage with other lights. The LEDs only put off what the plant can use. There is no wasted light, wattage. I'm going to be pruning and topping, possibly installing a screen. I haven't decided yet. The cost on side lighting alone was $225. The overheads are about $700.


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## led boy (Jul 26, 2010)

i have a 700 watt 5band led and it is an INSANE !!! veg unit,,the best!! but i found my flowers didnt yield like they should,, are you finding that?


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## Serapis (Jul 26, 2010)

led boy said:


> i have a 700 watt 5band led and it is an INSANE !!! veg unit,,the best!! but i found my flowers didnt yield like they should,, are you finding that?


Not from what I've seen in some journals. Watt for watt, I'm getting a much better yield with LEDS. I'm avoiding power usage spikes, heat and risk of fire. I'm barely pulling 4.5 amps for the entire closet, directly from the light socket with an adapter. You can't beat that. A lot depends on yield, genetics, how much wattage did you have? A simple 60w UFO ain't going to do it. You have to spend the money up front and hit those plants with all you can reasonably give them.


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## oOBe RyeOo (Jul 26, 2010)

How many grows have you done with led's?


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## Serapis (Jul 26, 2010)

One of the overheads arrived today. It is a 120W overhead panel with a hang kit. It is extremely bright when looking directly into it. I hung it using a swivel hook in the ceiling, which makes for VERY EASY adjustment of lights. I hung an 18" dog choker collar from the hook and am using an "S" hook to adjust heights.

Everything is ready to go. Waiting on seeds and one more overhead light. The humidity is staying at 40% steady with temp about 82. If I need humidity, I can crack open the lid on the water bubbler; see the condensation on the top of the lid in the picture? If the max humidity is 40%, I should be good.

The flowering chamber has an exhaust fan pass through to my master bathroom. I'm kind of concerned about the light. I'll keep the timer set to mostly daylight hours, but in summer, we get long days. I may have to get dark curtains. I'm still trying to decide how to get fresh air into the flowering chamber that is currently negative pressure and not light. I have a vent in shelve, but have closed it off because it was allowing too much light from lower nursery up into the flower chamber. I may take a pic of that and see if anyone has any ideas.

Here are some new pics. Nothing else to update until germination. The green lighting in the pics is my work light that will be in use in case I need to work in flower chamber after lights out. The green wavelengths are ignored by the green plants. Check out the water bubbler, got a long stone on the bottom connected to a air stone. Mixed 1 tsp per gallon of hydrogen peroxide as suggested to keep water healthy. The PH of water is about 6.5.

The more I think about it, the more this needs to be a hydro set up. I may have to try it one tray at a time and see how it goes. My first grow will be soil.


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## Serapis (Jul 28, 2010)

Seeds have arrived. I hope to have more to update soon. Thanks Nirvana!


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## nl3004.kind (Jul 28, 2010)

wait, you've got side lighting, one light for the top and just got seeds? wouldn't you want to have everything together? and what are you doing for cooling and res cooling? it seems like you're only half way there bro... nice setup, though, the parts that are there...


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## jml424 (Jul 28, 2010)

very clean set-up. Just grabbed 2 50w UFO's for veg as side lighting for a crappy t5 (not bashing t5 in general just this piece of shit knock I have) and the plants love it definitely noticed a difference.


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## Serapis (Jul 28, 2010)

nl3004.kind said:


> wait, you've got side lighting, one light for the top and just got seeds? wouldn't you want to have everything together? and what are you doing for cooling and res cooling? it seems like you're only half way there bro... nice setup, though, the parts that are there...


LOL... This has been a piece meal operation with many eBay vendors participating. The second over head is on it's way and should be here Monday, which is no big deal, as the seedlings will be under flouros the first 2 weeks. As for cooling, even though I don't think I need it with a LED and flouro combo room, I do have 6" duct intake with diffuser at floor level, and a wall pass through fan at the ceiling level exhausting the air. This results in negative pressure and the air is exhausted into my Master bathroom, which has 2 negative ion generators running and generating over 4 million negative ions per hour. I'm also running a negative ion generator next to Master bedroom door. If odor atoms get passed all my measures, I'll get some ONA gel.

This is a soil grow. Fox Farms soluble nutes arrived today, as did my yo yo hangers for the fluorescents. I also received 20lb of worm castings. They actually shipped it in a trash bag in a box. I've carefully analyzed with a magnifying glass and can't see any movement or bugs. I may wait to use the castings on my second grow. I'm only going to go with 5 seeds per grow and try to pick a nice mother with the best bubble gum traits. If one of them smells like Topps and has pinkish hues, call it mom, cause that is what I'm after. I'll start second batch of seeds when I get the first a couple of weeks into flowering. If everything goes ok, I want to be harvesting half of the flowering chamber every 4 weeks.

Thanks for the comments on the design and all. I think I overspent, but it's my first time and I really want to get it right and invest in good LED lights. With lights, hardware and odds and ends, I have spent about $1400. Those of you out there contemplating a closet, don't sweat that figure, you can grow with as little as some CFL bulbs and miracle grow potting soil with miracle grow bloom food at 12/12 if ya wanted and spend far less than I did. This just happens to be a nice size closet grow with the more expensive LEDs. I'm avoiding narco choppers from seeing a hot room on the view screen and using about a 1/5th of the power and only generating light that the plants can use.

I appreciate all comments, criticisms (keep them professional) and suggestions. For those that have never seen them, here is a pic of 5 Nirvana germination tabs that have been seeded.


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## oOBe RyeOo (Jul 28, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I'm avoiding narco choppers from seeing a hot room on the view screen and using about a 1/5th of the power and only generating light that the plants can use.


So, you're not in the US then I assume.


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## tendran (Jul 28, 2010)

Getting antsy. Eager to see what a real LED setup can do. Experimenting myself with small trained grows under far less wattage. I don't think the 4 panels are enough to flower proper though so I may cave and add 2x 125watt cfl's top center and angle the panels on either side as canopy lighting. If all goes well with the test plants in veg, I'll start a blue mystic mama while I sort out the kinks in the flowering area.

Keep it funky man. Can't wait to see some sprouts.


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## Serapis (Jul 29, 2010)

tendran said:


> Getting antsy. Eager to see what a real LED setup can do. Experimenting myself with small trained grows under far less wattage. I don't think the 4 panels are enough to flower proper though so I may cave and add 2x 125watt cfl's top center and angle the panels on either side as canopy lighting. If all goes well with the test plants in veg, I'll start a blue mystic mama while I sort out the kinks in the flowering area.
> 
> Keep it funky man. Can't wait to see some sprouts.


Thanks for the kind words, but if you are not going to go with quality LED's, please get CFL's or Flouro's instead. I would hate to see another LED trash post simply because the LEDs came from Sesame Street. I'm doing this grow and hoping to have something to hush up the 1000w hot closet growers.


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## Serapis (Jul 29, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> So, you're not in the US then I assume.


My actual location is no one's business but my own. How you could come up with that conclusion based on a statement regarding a narco chopper with heat detection equipment is beyond me. There are plenty of places besides the US that a hot grow room detected by a chopper would not be in one's best interests.

Care full what you assume, as the first three letters of that word could end up being overly descriptive of you.


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## oOBe RyeOo (Jul 29, 2010)

Serapis said:


> My actual location is no one's business but my own. How you could come up with that conclusion based on a statement regarding a narco chopper with heat detection equipment is beyond me. There are plenty of places besides the US that a hot grow room detected by a chopper would not be in one's best interests.
> 
> Care full what you assume, as the first three letters of that word could end up being overly descriptive of you.


Just think if they have to use the helicopter you're pretty much shit up a creek without a paddle because they already know what you're doing. Here in the US that's illegal unless they have a warrant. And the old saying is you make an ass out of you and me.

Might want to take a break and  then chill.


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## Serapis (Jul 29, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> Just think if they have to use the helicopter you're pretty much shit up a creek without a paddle because they already know what you're doing. Here in the US that's illegal unless they have a warrant. And the old saying is you make an ass out of you and me.
> 
> Might want to take a break and  then chill.


I appreciate your taking part in my thread, however I'm not here to discuss politics or police tactics. I also do not appreciate know it alls that pop into other's grow threads and drop their know it all opinions. If the police have a reason to be flying over your hood while going from point A to point B and your grow room shows up on their screen, you are screwed. First they are going to put you under surveillance. Then they are going to go through your trash looking for evidence. (Supreme Court has already ruled, you take it to curb, it is public domain) The fact is, your heat signature drew undue attention to yourself and now the police are looking for you to slip up. They call it stealth for a reason. Here are some other posts that you may just want to read and look at. Do not believe that the Bill of Rights protects you while committing crimes. 

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/frequently-asked-questions/82822-question-police-thermal-imaging-camera.html
https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/217425-how-police-ir-helicopter-functions.html

If the police are looking for a suspect at night in your neighborhood and are using the FLIR to locate them and your grow room shows up, you could possible be screwed. That is why it is one of MY concerns. The fact that you don't care is your business. Please keep your business out of my thread and not turn it into a legal tit for tat discussion.


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## badmanstar (Jul 29, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I appreciate your taking part in my thread, however I'm not here to discuss politics or police tactics. I also do not appreciate know it alls that pop into other's grow threads and drop their know it all opinions. If the police have a reason to be flying over your hood while going from point A to point B and your grow room shows up on their screen, you are screwed. First they are going to put you under surveillance. Then they are going to go through your trash looking for evidence. (Supreme Court has already ruled, you take it to curb, it is public domain) The fact is, your heat signature drew undue attention to yourself and now the police are looking for you to slip up. They call it stealth for a reason. Here are some other posts that you may just want to read and look at. Do not believe that the Bill of Rights protects you while committing crimes.
> 
> http://www.420magazine.com/forums/frequently-asked-questions/82822-question-police-thermal-imaging-camera.html
> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/217425-how-police-ir-helicopter-functions.html
> ...


you very right in what your sayin.....on another note the room looks great mate, you've put alot of effort and planning i see....great


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## oOBe RyeOo (Jul 29, 2010)

Serapis said:


> http://www.420magazine.com/forums/frequently-asked-questions/82822-question-police-thermal-imaging-camera.html
> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/217425-how-police-ir-helicopter-functions.html


These threads don't mean anything to me. Now if you googled some articles that have some facts based off of previous cases, you might be more persuasive. The second article tells you to not vent your air out of the house because flir does not pick up the lights just the exhausted heat. The cases that have proven the flir is not imposing on any rights have determined that any air vented outside the house was not part of your privacy because you didn't try to keep it private by not venting outside. 

So all in all, don't vent outside and you should be good. I do understand that it never hurts to be over cautious, I'm not trying to be rude or anything and if I came off that way, sorry.


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## Serapis (Jul 29, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> These threads don't mean anything to me. Now if you googled some articles that have some facts based off of previous cases, you might be more persuasive. The second article tells you to not vent your air out of the house because flir does not pick up the lights just the exhausted heat. The cases that have proven the flir is not imposing on any rights have determined that any air vented outside the house was not part of your privacy because you didn't try to keep it private by not venting outside.
> 
> So all in all, don't vent outside and you should be good. I do understand that it never hurts to be over cautious, I'm not trying to be rude or anything and if I came off that way, sorry.


No worries. Your apology is humbly accepted. In my mind, it is better to be safe, than sorry. I understand the warrant requirements, but I also know from lawyer friends that cops cannot be trusted to tell the truth and to follow the law to do their job. Surely you have been to traffic court and had a or heard a cop tell the judge something you know to be false.

Back on topic. 

My second overhead LED 120w panel is on it's way and should be here Monday or Tuesday. I've placed 5 of the seeds in germination tabs that Nirvana sells, that look just like peat tablets. Actually, that is all they are. 10 Peat tablets for $8.99! Just go to K-mart and get a seed starter kit that comes with a mini greenhouse for $6. It has been about 27 hours and I don't see anything yet. I did mist them with some of my aerated water, which I doubt they needed, but I wanted to make sure it stayed moist around the seed. I'm hoping to report on sprouts in next day or two.

A word about Nirvana seeds, because I'm getting private messages with questions, do they deliver in the USA? The answer is YES! they most certainly do!  It did take almost 16 days to get my seeds, however, I did get them about 6 days after my card was charged, so they shipped the germination kit and the soil tabs before they were paid. The shipping is stealthy. I would encourage everyone to NOT post how they received their seeds. I saw a post on these forums today where the poster described exactly how the seeds were hidden and shipped. That is NOT a good idea if you want Nirvana to keep shipping to the USA.

That is all for now, thanks for stopping in and checking out my grow room design. I suppose I should start a grow journal once I have seedlings? I'd rather keep it here in this part of the forum.


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## Bag Lady (Jul 29, 2010)

Just subscribed and watching with much interest. Good luck.


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## nugetss (Jul 29, 2010)

i think that led is gonna be shit


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## Terente (Jul 30, 2010)

wow! really nice setup!  I can't do nothing but admire your aesthetic sense. I try to do the same on a smaller scale, also switching on LED's for obvious reasons - no more excessive heat, no more exploding light bulbs, less money on bills, etc. 
Suggestion: I managed to make the rooms (more) lightproof by adding on the vent grills (passive intake & between rooms) black cooker hood filter. I just stuffed it in 2-3 layers until the light dissapeared so now all the vent grills are completely "passive"
I'm not waiting for results, for I know you'll do just great!  Good luck!
P.S.
Look how that guy did: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/152854-think-space-enough-grow-nice.html


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## Serapis (Jul 30, 2010)

Terente said:


> wow! really nice setup!  I can't do nothing but admire your aesthetic sense. I try to do the same on a smaller scale, also switching on LED's for obvious reasons - no more excessive heat, no more exploding light bulbs, less money on bills, etc.
> Suggestion: I managed to make the rooms (more) lightproof by adding on the vent grills (passive intake & between rooms) black cooker hood filter. I just stuffed it in 2-3 layers until the light dissapeared so now all the vent grills are completely "passive"
> I'm not waiting for results, for I know you'll do just great!  Good luck!
> P.S.
> Look how that guy did: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/152854-think-space-enough-grow-nice.html


thanks for the tip on the hood filter. I was thinking something just like that and asking a buddy at McDonalds to hook me up with something but he had no idea what i was talking about. I'm sure I can find something at Lowes that will kill some of the light.

Don't forget, the moon and other man made sources leak light into the night sky and outdoors still does fine with that much light. I know the goal is to not risk any, but reasonable people realize it's not always possible to kill it 100%. I will however look into that, I don't want my feminized seeds to go all Hermey on me.


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

This is a small update, no pics really, I figured everyone here has seen first leaves before. I germinated 5 of the seeds in peat pellets and 3 are sprung and now in the nursery under Flouro's and a dome. I'm crossing fingers for the other two, as I really want a nice selection to choose a mom plant from.

I have mixed some Big Bloom, about half the recommended strength, to spray and feed the seedlings. This should aid in root growth.

As for the design of the closet, I'm nearly finished. Last LED panel is on way. I need to get some ventilated shelving so I can store my goodies in the closet, such as nutes, spray bottles, trays and domes, etc.... Should also make a nice bud dryer.

I just wanted to post this for those that have sub'ed this thread, to let them know the grow is still on, just waiting on mother nature now.

I'll post some pics in about a week and see where we are.


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## jfa916 (Aug 1, 2010)

looking good so far bro


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## tendran (Aug 1, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Thanks for the kind words, but if you are not going to go with quality LED's, please get CFL's or Flouro's instead. I would hate to see another LED trash post simply because the LEDs came from Sesame Street. I'm doing this grow and hoping to have something to hush up the 1000w hot closet growers.


Haha, I like that.. Sesame Street.. But no, I am not one of those people. I already KNOW the potential LED growing has. My cab now is a small scale experiment and I will be putting 2 high watt cfl grow lights in the flower room and probably add one to the veg room.. If all this works out decently, I'm going to upscale to a wardrobe type cab so I have more vertical room, and I'm going to line the cab in custom array of leds I'll wire myself.

PS, not to bring this back up.. but Narcotic choppers fly over my house coincidentally 2 times a day during August/September because the area I live in has lots of wooded hillsides.. and I have at least two friends that have witnessed low height (below the "legal limit") hovering and observing of their grow spots.. There are no more rules. All they have to do to go on your property is claim that you might be funding terrorism. One of those spots the copters had a troubled time getting a view at, a "kid" was later spotted taking photos. My friend confiscated his camera and when the kid flipped out, he took the memory card and chucked the camera across the street. There's no more plants there anyway, they got ripped after the flyby, but don't underestimate the depravity of law enforcement, children.


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## oOBe RyeOo (Aug 1, 2010)

tendran said:


> children.


What makes you think we are children??? Just might be older than you for all you know.


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

Thanks Tendran and Jfa...

I agree Tendran, I don't trust them a bit, warrant or not.

Just transplanted the babies and their peat beds to 9 oz Solo red party cups.

Soil mix is 3 parts miracle grow soil, 1 part perlite and one part worm castings.

Watered them in with 1 tblsp per gallon FF Big Bloom to help establish strong roots.

Now we wait...


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> What makes you think we are children??? Just might be older than you for all you know.


He was not referring to anyone in these forums.


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## oOBe RyeOo (Aug 1, 2010)

you might want to re-read that.


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## fade409 (Aug 1, 2010)

you dont think that just the back row of LED lights are enough? from the info i have gathered 4 of those LED panels are the same as 1 400w HPS. here is where i found that info @ http://cgi.ebay.com/900-LED-Red-Blue-Hydroponic-Grow-Light-4-x-Panels-56W-/290459136060?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a0b6b03c. also do you think the use of reflective material in your box would help spread the light around even more?

FADE


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> you might want to re-read that.


He is saying not to underestimate the depravity of law enforcement and children.... I know what he meant because of his use of quotes for the word kid. this is a design and grow thread dude, keep it on topic please or head off and find someone else to argue with.


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## oOBe RyeOo (Aug 1, 2010)

Serapis said:


> He is saying not to underestimate the depravity of law enforcement and children.... I know what he meant because of his use of quotes for the word kid. this is a design and grow thread dude, keep it on topic please or head off and find someone else to argue with.


" There's no more plants there anyway, they got ripped after the flyby, but don't underestimate the depravity of law enforcement, children." 

If you can understand punctuation you might be able to read it better. Reads as, " There's no more plants there anyway, they got ripped after the flyby, but don't underestimate the depravity of law enforcement, (pause) children"

If he wanted to make it read as "and" he would have put "and". 

You are the one arguing, I'm just merely stating the facts and maybe you'll learn from them.


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

If you force me, I'll move my fucking thread to a journal and allow no interaction or participation. 

I'm not here to debate you on what someone else meant. He was NOT calling us children IMO

Please drop it or just move on to find other people to argue with....


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## oOBe RyeOo (Aug 1, 2010)

Go for it because I'm never leaving this thread just like the way you are in the other guys thread.


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## fade409 (Aug 1, 2010)

serpias, did you happen to catch that question i asked you? you may have missed it due to rye.


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## tendran (Aug 1, 2010)

I actually was calling "you all" "children" *but* I really didn't mean anything by it, lol. If my post were a public service announcement, I would have turned to the camera and addressed the naive children of the world as I told them not to underestimate the depravity of those law enforcement officers that are out there to protect and serve only themselves and each other. I could really go on and on.. but I AGREE with SERPIAS that IN HIS THREAD we should STAY ON TOPIC and NOT argue ABOUT stupid shit. OKAY! <-- Notice the okay does NOT have a QUESTION mark. I, for one, am curious as to the results; and even though Serpias sometimes seems to come across a little bit harsh himself, it is true that this is not a topic for law enforcement debate or grammar patrol or any of that. I was merely attempting to jest about the subject at the end of my post, not spark another debate.

Now.. outgrowing their starters already? Very nice.


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

fade409 said:


> you dont think that just the back row of LED lights are enough? from the info i have gathered 4 of those LED panels are the same as 1 400w HPS. here is where i found that info @ http://cgi.ebay.com/900-LED-Red-Blue-Hydroponic-Grow-Light-4-x-Panels-56W-/290459136060?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item43a0b6b03c. also do you think the use of reflective material in your box would help spread the light around even more?
> 
> FADE


Hi Fade. I had a response all typed up, and yes, I messed up replying to you dealing with the ass in my thread that would rather deal with semantics in the English language than he would discuss growing bud. The back row of lights is a total of 112w. It only contains two spectrums and is not enough by themselves to grow good bud. These lights are meant to be used as an additional source of lights for under the canopy. The top lights are the tri-band wide spectrums that will feed most of the photosynthesis. 

The back row of lights are 120 degree LEDs, which mean their light is directed out from the bulb for 120 degrees. These bulbs will benefit from reflective material on the side walls and the curtain which has the white side facing in. The lights from above are 60 degree 1w LED bulbs that benefit from the poly on the walls and from the curtain. The only portion not covered in panda poly is above the back row of LED lights. The reason is the canopy won't get much higher than that. I'm doing Sea of Green with 18 pots in 8 square feet. I have not built the screen yet, because I'm thinking through the process. The flowering room is going to have plants from different stages. I'm staggering the grows so I can harvest every 2-3 weeks. Therefore I haven't decided to build a single screen that goes all the way across or use bamboo stakes in the pots to support the cola stems. I'll be topping and training to maximize yield.

The back row of lights was fastened to the wall using double sided industrial velcro tape. Had I covered the back and then used that method, the entire weight would have been supported on the plastic. If buds do grow higher than my intention, I'll add some poly on the back wall. For now, the sides and the front wall which you can't see in the pics does have it.

thanks for asking your question again. It was a good one.


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

tendran said:


> Now.. outgrowing their starters already? Very nice.


I could have waited a couple of days before transplanting, but I wanted to introduce worm castings. The peat pellets have no nutritional value that I'm aware of, and spraying nutes on the stem and leaves this early kinda worries me. By placing them in the solo cups, I can mix worm castings into the soil and water the soil with a watered down mix of big bloom, which promotes healthy roots. I don't recommend leaving them in just peat for extended periods. I was also worried about them falling over at such a fragile age. They have better support now.

When I clone from the mom, I'll be using rockwool cubes to start my cuttings. Those will be the only medium until the plant is ready to go into it's final pot. I hope to be able to take some clones in 3-4 weeks.


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## fade409 (Aug 1, 2010)

i used this type of reflective backing in my grow box. https://www.rollitup.org/members/heath-robinson-34876-albums-heath-picture811857-19.jpg . i have it on every and top and bottom of my grow area. 

as my grow goes, im doing auto flowers...here are my thoughts and i just need some answers before i go for it. with all the reflective backing do you think that i would have enough light to go from start to finish and still have decent yield? with 2 of these, maybe 3 >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/900-LED-GROW-LIGHT-PANEL-RED-BLUE-HYDROPONIC-LAMP-110V-/300451653305?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f45066b9 from what i understand from your previous post that my space is too small for a 600w even with a cool bulb. you mentioned 2 - 400w bulbs, that would give me 800w > 600w wouldnt that be hotter than one 600w? thanks for your help. im just trying to cross "T's" and dot " i's" before i do this.

its really on my mind just to do 1-400w cooled since i have all the reflective tape. im just confused on lighting really. what would be best for me.


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

fade409 said:


> i used this type of reflective backing in my grow box. https://www.rollitup.org/members/heath-robinson-34876-albums-heath-picture811857-19.jpg . i have it on every and top and bottom of my grow area.
> 
> as my grow goes, im doing auto flowers...here are my thoughts and i just need some answers before i go for it. with all the reflective backing do you think that i would have enough light to go from start to finish and still have decent yield? with 2 of these, maybe 3 >>>> http://cgi.ebay.com/900-LED-GROW-LIGHT-PANEL-RED-BLUE-HYDROPONIC-LAMP-110V-/300451653305?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item45f45066b9 from what i understand from your previous post that my space is too small for a 600w even with a cool bulb. you mentioned 2 - 400w bulbs, that would give me 800w > 600w wouldnt that be hotter than one 600w? thanks for your help. im just trying to cross "T's" and dot " i's" before i do this.
> 
> its really on my mind just to do 1-400w cooled since i have all the reflective tape. im just confused on lighting really. what would be best for me.


The reason you got so many responses suggesting two 400w lights was because of the dimensions of your grow area. If I'm not mistaken, my memory tells me that you had nearly 8' in length? Looking at the panels you are considering, I think you would need an alternative light source to cover some missed spectrums. While these lights will grow plants, I doubt the flowering will be compact because the intensity is lacking. Don't get me wrong, those panels are bright as hell and blinding if you look directly at them, their coverage or footprint is only about 12" x 12" when only inches from the plant as they should be. The seller claims you can place them 80" above the canopy and cover 8' square, but I have my doubts. That is why mine are all side by side with absolutely little spacing.

If you want to go with a high intensity discharge lamp, aim for about 35-50w per square foot. Since I responded to soo many posts in the last two days, please hook me up with your thread and I'll go re read and give what advice I can. I'm no expert on lighting, but i know what the experts say. When it comes to LED, we have to concern ourself with light footprint, directional percentage of LEDs and wavelengths that are hit. It is not as easy as using watts per sq or the number of lumen.

I'll hit your thread up as soon as I hear back from ya.


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## fade409 (Aug 1, 2010)

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/353675-i-have-my-design-down.html here is the thread.

i can throw up a photoshop diagram if i need to too. i think it would give you and idea of how it is set up. let me draw it up real quick.

thanks for your help.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 1, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> " There's no more plants there anyway, they got ripped after the flyby, but don't underestimate the depravity of law enforcement, children."
> 
> If you can understand punctuation you might be able to read it better. Reads as, " There's no more plants there anyway, they got ripped after the flyby, but don't underestimate the depravity of law enforcement, (pause) children"
> 
> ...


The original poster was intending to say that children are included in the depravity of law enrocement and the levels they will stoop to. You are being too literal and not taking the post as a whole in context but merely choosing to make a mountain out of a molehill. There are many gramatical mistakes on this website as many people are under the influence of marijuana when they post.

Whether you are right or not, you are being a pest in your continued posting about a matter the thread author has asked you to cease commenting about.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Hey Serapis, do you have a link that shows the spec on the lights you got? I have seens some that say 60 degree "lens" but then upon further questioning, it was the angle of the glass on the fixture, not the LED's themselves. This caused me to be very cautious of sellers on ebay. I only know of one seller that has 60 degree led's, but would like to learn of another if you have found one!


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

I'll say it out loud, cause I respect their business, HTG Supply. The panels on the back were bought discount from a warehouse in packs of four. The overheads are from HTG. I've also heard of a 3w per LED seller, but I hear the 1w is far more efficient. 3w's maybe the next new thing, but not on my first LED grow. I wanted something that I know works.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I'll say it out loud, cause I respect their business, HTG Supply. The panels on the back were bought discount from a warehouse in packs of four. The overheads are from HTG. I've also heard of a 3w per LED seller, but I hear the 1w is far more efficient. 3w's maybe the next new thing, but not on my first LED grow. I wanted something that I know works.


Do you have a link to the light? I will also check HTG website....


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 1, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I'll say it out loud, cause I respect their business, HTG Supply. The panels on the back were bought discount from a warehouse in packs of four. The overheads are from HTG. I've also heard of a 3w per LED seller, but I hear the 1w is far more efficient. 3w's maybe the next new thing, but not on my first LED grow. I wanted something that I know works.


http://www.htgsupply.com/viewproduct.asp?productID=53987

I looked at this light, but saw nothing about 60 degree angle for the LED's. Do you have a different light?


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## Serapis (Aug 1, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Do you have a link to the light? I will also check HTG website....


Here ya go.... http://cgi.ebay.com/120-watt-LED-GROW-LIGHT-Red-Blue-R-B-UFO-SuperNova-TRI-/120470367867?cmd=ViewItem&pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1c0c97ee7b#ht_9110wt_1137


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 1, 2010)

"The 1 watt LED use wide angle directional bulbs for a wide area of coverage"

This actually makes me think it is the "Standard" 120 degree LED


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## Serapis (Aug 2, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> "The 1 watt LED use wide angle directional bulbs for a wide area of coverage"
> 
> This actually makes me think it is the "Standard" 120 degree LED


Send the seller a question. I heard back from a Paul, I believe was the name, and he assured me it wasn't, hence the $499 price tag. I, of course did not pay retail, he throws one unit up for auction each week and I made out great, getting 2 for that price. 

Next time I fire them up, I'll see if I can't determine the down angle with my speed square.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 2, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Send the seller a question. I heard back from a Paul, I believe was the name, and he assured me it wasn't, hence the $499 price tag. I, of course did not pay retail, he throws one unit up for auction each week and I made out great, getting 2 for that price.
> 
> Next time I fire them up, I'll see if I can't determine the down angle with my speed square.


I hope you got the one you were hoping for! Not sure why they use the term "wide angle" if they have 60 degree though... I too have been looking for a "less than retail" unit that has the 60 degrees in it, but my search has come up empty so far


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## Serapis (Aug 4, 2010)

The last light arrived today and it is now installed. 

A quick word about LED lighting. I see a lot of comparisons around that try to compare certain LED units to HID lamps. For instance, these two have been compared to as 600w by marketers. They use fancy formulas and try use values like lumen, watt, dissipation, etc. You can skip past all of the hoopla, what does matter is that these LED lights and panels put off ONLY the wavelengths used by plants for photosynthesis A & B and 3rd band for blends. That is why it is hard to compare what they can do against their HID counterparts; which produce a lot of light that is wasted at the expense of added heat and a much higher power bill. I have nearly 360w of usable light! It's possible to get by with less, but I want to see some results.

My overheads are 120w each of pure light that the plants can use. The back panels total 112 watts. I'm not a lighting expert by any means. I consider these lights an investment that will keep paying me back. I'd like to do a scrog on my first LED grow, but I'm concerned about what if's in case I have to remove a hermy. I may do it anyway. For a net I'm going to suspend a Christmas net light set of green bulbs from springs hooked to the walls. I'll scrog with the net and plug it in if I need light in my flower room during "lights out".

I changed the wiring just a bit, I can now turn off the upper back lighting for when I'm starting a new cycle of little gals that don't reach that high yet. 

*LIFE Update*

The seedlings are looking great. I'm actually using a bit of a wick system to water them. I have a bed of pebbles in the bottom of the plant tray. The cups with drain holes are resting on top. I add water to about 1/2" above the rocks and the cups can absorb water from the bottom. I'm doing this to establish deep roots quickly. I also fed them Big Bloom two days ago the same way. Big Bloom was watered down to about half recommended strength.

I'll post 1 week old pics this weekend. The Bubbleicious feminized seeds were placed in peat pellet pellets just 5 days ago. The seedlings are already germinated and the peat pellets planted into an amended soil of MG, Perlite and worm castings, in 9 oz Solo cups. I used small cups to allow the roots to find water near bottom and stretch. The cup allows about a 4" tap root before these will be transplanted into larger containers.

The pictures depict my set up for a Sea of Green grow, however since I'm just getting started with 5 seeds, of which only 4 germed, I will be scrogging for a bigger yield. The best looking scrogger will have some cuttings removed to clone. I want to use the SOG method, but I'm also concerned about plant count. This closet should easily allow scrogging of three healthy females in 3 gallon pots each. If the LEDs work as I've seen them do, we'll have a lot of bud to harvest in the upper room, as the nursery below is vegging the next potential flowers.

Sorry for the long write up, I'm excited. We have 4 great looking seedlings with purple stems and nice luscious green tops. The plants are about 2 and 1/2" tall and are on 24 hour lights, which are 4 x 4' 65000k cool white Plus fluorescents. I had 41000k bulbs originally, but they looked like they were warm even though it said cool.... it seemed reddish to me.

I'll be switching to 20/4 light cycle after first week after hardening the seedlings to encourage some node stretching. LOL.... Not to worry, we want these to stretch a bit for scrogging. This will also make watering and feeding easier than SOG soil set up.

Comments, questions, suggestions are welcome. Please don't use this thread to denounce LED lighting or stir up debates. Just sub the thread, kick back and watch what these lights do.


In the pictures you'll see I used cheap dog choker chains suspended from swiveling swag hooks. Swiveling swag is key. It allows easy adjustment of lights to get them aligned quickly.


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## GibbsIt89 (Aug 4, 2010)

hey man i was trying to follow ur thread but i couldnt find it for awhile, i didnt bother to read all of this other stuff as it got into some shit i didnt care about lol but no this is a decent op u got going, simple yet thorough, i have a question tho:

how much did all of those panels cost you? i purchased one panel cuz i thought i was moving into an appartment and figured what the hell, what attracted me was the low watts and heat, i got a 45 LED grow panel that runs 45 watts, what do u think i can grow with this as a little project? should i use it for my autogrowers? i am using a 400watt MH neutral bulb and hanging ballast right now for my mother plant and 7 other 4 week old ones, but im just curious as to exactly how powerful this little grow panel is? cuz to me in this case uve gone the extra way


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## GibbsIt89 (Aug 4, 2010)

i havent started cloneing but i bot some cubes, gel, and a humidity dome/tray i have that grow panel, 2 26watt 6400k coil bulb sunblasters, 2 24 inch t5 tubes, and that 400watt metal halide ballast with a neutral bulb and i purchased a warm bulb i had thot to bud, what should i use for what exactly?:

like i cud use the tubes under the 400MH aswell
i could use the panel for clones or aswell as the tubes, or just the tubes
the coil bulbs i dono what to use for really ive just set them overtop of each one of my autogrowers to get it going
or i could use just the panel for autogrowers
or i could use the MH for autogrowers
u get the point, i like things to be very specific i am always reading alot threads and asking questions
as i still havent completed my first grow (mother has bin growing for 7 months, the others are seeds, again i havent started cloneing yet)

im going to get fucking high now im all into this too much lol long night peace and love


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## Serapis (Aug 4, 2010)

GibbsIt89 said:


> hey man i was trying to follow ur thread but i couldnt find it for awhile, i didnt bother to read all of this other stuff as it got into some shit i didnt care about lol but no this is a decent op u got going, simple yet thorough, i have a question tho:
> 
> how much did all of those panels cost you? i purchased one panel cuz i thought i was moving into an appartment and figured what the hell, what attracted me was the low watts and heat, i got a 45 LED grow panel that runs 45 watts, what do u think i can grow with this as a little project? should i use it for my autogrowers? i am using a 400watt MH neutral bulb and hanging ballast right now for my mother plant and 7 other 4 week old ones, but im just curious as to exactly how powerful this little grow panel is? cuz to me in this case uve gone the extra way


The total cost of the panels was cheaper than retail, because I used eBay auctions rather than "Buy it Now". Had I purchased outside of auction, the panels and the overheads would have cost $1300. Using auctions and patience (and in one case a last second snipe), I was able to procure these lights for $750.

If your 45w is a true 45w panel that has 45 1w LEDs, I would compare it to about a 150w lamp. Not knowing though, I would experiment with it. It needs to be no higher than 12" above the plant or plants and the lightprint is probably 1.5' x 1.5' (sorry, I don't do metrics yet) at the most. I may have gone overboard and maybe the side panels are excessive, but my goal is to use LEDS to turn out some serious bud with a one time investment. If this setup scrogs well, that $750 will be chump change in no time. We pay $350 a oz here for good grade bud. I have been diagnosed with acute anxiety disorder and I refuse to take psycho-active prescribed drugs that alter my brain waves. I get a calm smooth relaxing effect from smoking. This closet is a response to an event. My dealer quit dealing, out of the blue. He got religion and left everyone he had supplied for years hanging. I have no other connections and a friend who knows of my condition spent 3 weeks trying to find me some good bud. That is why I'm growing.


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## Serapis (Aug 4, 2010)

GibbsIt89 said:


> i havent started cloneing but i bot some cubes, gel, and a humidity dome/tray i have that grow panel, 2 26watt 6400k coil bulb sunblasters, 2 24 inch t5 tubes, and that 400watt metal halide ballast with a neutral bulb and i purchased a warm bulb i had thot to bud, what should i use for what exactly?:
> 
> like i cud use the tubes under the 400MH aswell
> i could use the panel for clones or aswell as the tubes, or just the tubes
> ...


Why not set up a closet to something similar that I have? Use your flouros and cfls on the top (or bottom, it's a preference thing) shelf as a nursery for cuttings, seedlings and early veging and your 400 for flowering. Panda poly makes for a great divider and makes an awesome curtain.

Just experiment. If you create journals here, you can document your steps and results and determine what works best for you.

There is no right or wrong answer. It's a weed and it will grow without a lot of fuss. The fun comes from trying to yield as much as you can squeeze out of the plant.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 4, 2010)

DO you have a ppm and PH meter for this grow? I would recommend those things for sure (digital is better). PH leads to most issues with plant health. Other than that.....subbed and ready to see what this setup can do! Hope you can get a good bud connect for the 3 months prior to harvest though


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## Serapis (Aug 4, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> DO you have a ppm and PH meter for this grow? I would recommend those things for sure (digital is better). PH leads to most issues with plant health. Other than that.....subbed and ready to see what this setup can do! Hope you can get a good bud connect for the 3 months prior to harvest though


I'm smoking brown dirt weed which sucks, but it relaxes me. I have a analog PH meter.


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## GibbsIt89 (Aug 4, 2010)

what about the grow panel, should i just throw that in a box and experiment with it or should i use that with the clones/etc.. and i dont know about that, the MH does really well for veg for me.. i was going to get a second ballast and put the warm bulb in it, then id have a big veg area, a big flowering area, and lots of light for clones, seedlings with the coil,tubes, and panel if needed.

ouch, i hate that kind of weed, id rather cut a branch of my baby and throw it in a pot lol.. (couldnt do that to her) but no THANX for the help, just trying to perfect things lol i live in ontario canada and when i was choping amazing purple kush from BC (was flown in) it was about $1000 a qp i mean u cud get some kush for $850-900 but it wasnt compared to this shit, so i was selling ounces for about $320 ya, but now its everywhere, everyone smokes or sells here its intense lol, so sorry to hear about ur luck, i think its about $240 now tho for an ounce here of some good kush, i can still sell it to some ppl for $300 tho so depends who u kno right.


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## GibbsIt89 (Aug 4, 2010)

another question, what would b better for an autogrower at a week and a half old from hatch: my MH setup at 14 or so inches under the bulb or under the 45 LED panel at like 3 inches?

also, my warm 400watt MH bulb says 3200 k and as an example i hear for CFL's i should have 6400k for veg and 2700k for bud. so is this too much "k" (what ever that even exactly is, im new) for budding?


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## GibbsIt89 (Aug 4, 2010)

what is a hortilux bulb, conversion bulb for MH w/e blah blah blah..?


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## Serapis (Aug 4, 2010)

GibbsIt89 said:


> what is a hortilux bulb, conversion bulb for MH w/e blah blah blah..?


C'mon now dude, 3 posts in a row full of questions? Most of them not related to my grow. I apologize dude, but I'll answer questions related to what I'm doing, but not what you are doing. That is what Create thread is for.


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## GibbsIt89 (Aug 4, 2010)

i kno i kno my bad man i get carried away, just so many questions, still interested in ur whole op tho keep posting them pics


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## gidion (Aug 5, 2010)

awww damn.
I thought this was an already completed grow 

Time for an update me thinks


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## Serapis (Aug 5, 2010)

gidion said:


> awww damn.
> I thought this was an already completed grow
> 
> Time for an update me thinks


LOL, sorry.... We have several weeks to go. ..

I just ordered Open Sesame, Beastie Bloomz and Cha ching water soluables for the flowering phase of this grow. 

I don't have much to update, Currently, I have 4 seedlings just entering week 2. They have developed the first node and some new growth indicates the second node is starting to emerge. I'll take some pictures this weekend, but trust me, these are kids, nothing to get excited about yet. 

For those joining late, this will be an all LED grow, except for the first two weeks in the nursery under Flouro's. A word about seedling light cycles: I was going to leave the flouro's on 24/7 until doing some reading about plants breaking down sugar and using it. I decided to give them 4 hours of darkness a day now, and the first dark period surprised the hell out of me. It looked like a full day's growth had occurred in just 4 hours! I'm convinced plants need some sleep in veg mode. It gives them a chance to use the carbohydrates created during the day. I now have 3 timers in my grow area  one for flouro's, one for LED's and one for air intake and exhaust.

I can't wait for some decent leaves to mist with seltzer water.


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## blueberryblitz (Aug 5, 2010)

Sub'd for sure! I absolutely love your setup and hope in my next house to arrange something like that, very cool my man. Also Im super interested in the LED's... Want to keep temps down and electricity low due to recent 30% hikes etc.. Anyways my first grow which is going now is 2 150 watt CFLs and the 2 26watt aerogarden lights in the hood, so I need to upgrade and felt the UFO might be good for me, but seeing as how they are new everyone seems to not be sold on them. So I will love watching yours and so when I return from my honeymoon in OCT and get ready to start grow number 2 maybe I will switch to LED... Yes people I know.. HPS and MH let me type them ahead of time for you guys so you can save the finger time.... I dont want to step up to all the extras I need with that, I like my ventilation system right now and would rather add something not emitting so much heat.


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## Serapis (Aug 5, 2010)

LEDs are the future of growing, just as much as CFLs are the replacement for incandescent. Technology marches on....


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

*Update*

Yesterday, while preparing the flower chamber to act as a vegger, I decided to toss the last peat pellet and ungerminated seed and wash the domed nursery and put it away for future use. As I picked up the peat pellet, I noticed it was kind of loose inside. I decided to take a look at the dead seed and see if it had cracked and dried out or what, just for educational purposes. I held it under a lamp and kinda split the peat open with my fingers. Lo and behold, the seed had split and it's tap root was out about 1/4". I soaked the peat and gently compacted it back towards the center and placed it back in the dome, just to see what would happen. 

This morning after the lights came on, I decided to check on the ladies since the previous day was their first drink of Grow Big and Big Bloom combined. They looked fine. Looking in on the recently revived runt seed, I saw the seed leaf and stem getting ready to pop out of the soil and start it's slow arduous journey skyward. After 9 days, we now have 100% Germination for this strain of bubblegum from Nirvana. Once potted, this one will get a tag so we can follow along and see what she can do. She is nearly a week behind her siblings.

5 for 5! Let's hope all 5 move on to the 24 LED veg stage.


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## tendran (Aug 6, 2010)

Serapis said:


> LEDs are the future of growing, just as much as CFLs are the replacement for incandescent. Technology marches on....


LED's are now conquering home use as well. The household bulbs are still quite pricey, but when that price comes down I will definitely outfit my house 6w-9w led bulbs.

Glad to hear about the germination rate. I've heard good things about nirvana and I can't wait to receive those Blue Mystics.

Definitely get some pics up this weekend so I can compare. I know our schedules are pretty close together.


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## WWShadow (Aug 6, 2010)

Nine days!! that was one tough shell to crack! Hopefully the plant will be just as tough, congrats!!


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

WWShadow said:


> Nine days!! that was one tough shell to crack! Hopefully the plant will be just as tough, congrats!!


First to congrat me on my new daughter gets a +rep!.. Thanks!

/me hands out pink cigars


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

tendran said:


> LED's are now conquering home use as well. The household bulbs are still quite pricey, but when that price comes down I will definitely outfit my house 6w-9w led bulbs.
> 
> Glad to hear about the germination rate. I've heard good things about nirvana and I can't wait to receive those Blue Mystics.
> 
> Definitely get some pics up this weekend so I can compare. I know our schedules are pretty close together.


If you got the auto-flower variety contact Alice at the Help Desk. There is a quality problem with them.


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## bigill (Aug 6, 2010)

Serapis said:


> First to congrat me on my new daughter gets a +rep!.. Thanks!
> 
> /me hands out pink cigars


congratulations! now you'll have to worry about her finding your stash haha. and whats so good about auto-flower? dont they all flower on their own?


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

bigill said:


> congratulations! now you'll have to worry about her finding your stash haha. and whats so good about auto-flower? dont they all flower on their own?


+REP for you too! 

As for auto-flower, who said anything about auto-flower? If I did, I was referring to something else, not my girls. I've not tried auto-flower yet. I assume it is from seeds induced late in the flowering cycle? I know they show their sex within 2 weeks of veg. Thats all I kow about em. I like feminized seeds. I'm in no rush  I may now have a scrog of 5! That seems like 2 too many for a 2' x 4.5'.


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## blueberryblitz (Aug 6, 2010)

Congrats man! What's the lil ones name? Anyways I'm sure your stoked and prolly not on here but anyway wanted to say congrats and wish you a healthy beautiful child.


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## tendran (Aug 6, 2010)

I did not buy the blue mystic auto-flowering seeds, just feminized. I didn't want anything flowering before I'm ready and I want to be able to keep a mother.


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## Retris (Aug 6, 2010)

Serapis said:


> LEDs are the future of growing, just as much as CFLs are the replacement for incandescent. Technology marches on....


How much did just the lighting/ LED's run you for your op?

And how long do you have until the LED's burn out when you are using them for growing?


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## Belling (Aug 6, 2010)

Very good stuff. I will follow to finish. I am a newb but would love to start with LED. http://bit.ly/9LjLy6 is the only 3-watt diode UFO I can find on the market, except for the others on the site listed in the auction. Would it be worth the extra cash to upgrade to a 90w, 3 watt diode system or just go with a 90 w, 1 watt diode. The 135, 3w in the link seems overkill as the plan is for a small, 2x4x4 closet operation and I think the 90w, either 1 or 3 diode would be sufficient. Thanks


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

Retris said:


> How much did just the lighting/ LED's run you for your op?
> 
> And how long do you have until the LED's burn out when you are using them for growing?


This set up was about $700 for lights. The LEDs are rated for 100,000 hours, there are 8544 hours in a year, I expect to use them for at least 5 years before possibly looking into newer technology. Before you respond that it was way more costlier than HID lighting, take into account the power usage as well. I have this entire set up on a single 15a service, and have no heat issues. Watt vs watt, LEDs will win.


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

Belling said:


> Very good stuff. I will follow to finish. I am a newb but would love to start with LED. http://bit.ly/9LjLy6 is the only 3-watt diode UFO I can find on the market, except for the others on the site listed in the auction. Would it be worth the extra cash to upgrade to a 90w, 3 watt diode system or just go with a 90 w, 1 watt diode. The 135, 3w in the link seems overkill as the plan is for a small, 2x4x4 closet operation and I think the 90w, either 1 or 3 diode would be sufficient. Thanks


I wouldn't be in a rush to hit on the 3w LEDs yet. I've read studies showing that the 1w LED is more efficient. It could be why only one seller on eBay has 3w LED lights he claims are for growing. Stick with HTGSupply 1w LEDS for now. And skip on the UFO. Look for the tri band 120w. I won one in auction for $250.... well worth the extra $70

Thanks for following my grow.


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## Retris (Aug 6, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Before you respond that it was way more costlier than HID lighting, take into account the power usage as well. I have this entire set up on a single 15a service, and have no heat issues. Watt vs watt, LEDs will win.


Hah, I wasn't going to bash it at all. This was my first post of this forum so I am very new at all of this. I have been smoking for a long time but am just now thinking about growing and am trying to learn as much as possible before having to learn the hard way y'know?


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

Retris said:


> Hah, I wasn't going to bash it at all. This was my first post of this forum so I am very new at all of this. I have been smoking for a long time but am just now thinking about growing and am trying to learn as much as possible before having to learn the hard way y'know?


It's cool!  LOL... It looked like you were setting me up for a follow up question that was going to bash LEDs.... If you have a few months before you start growing, sub this thread and kick back and let's see what the lights can do together.


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## blueberryblitz (Aug 6, 2010)

Im the same as you retris, Im trying with CFL's right now, but jumped into it too soon and should have read longer first. Mine are doing alright besides a hiccup right now with over nutes i think, but anyways yeah I really want to move into the LED next grow but want to see how this one goes, so I will be along for the ride to help me decide, hope it works out great Serapis


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 6, 2010)

Serapis said:


> *Update*
> 
> Yesterday, while preparing the flower chamber to act as a vegger, I decided to toss the last peat pellet and ungerminated seed and wash the domed nursery and put it away for future use. As I picked up the peat pellet, I noticed it was kind of loose inside. I decided to take a look at the dead seed and see if it had cracked and dried out or what, just for educational purposes. I held it under a lamp and kinda split the peat open with my fingers. Lo and behold, the seed had split and it's tap root was out about 1/4". I soaked the peat and gently compacted it back towards the center and placed it back in the dome, just to see what would happen.
> 
> ...


Already using nutes on the seedlings? You may have a nute burn problem on your hands quickly if that is the case. Usually want them to get some roots and leaves before the nutes. I think third node is what a lot of people wait for and then use 1/4-1/2 strength nutes. Glad you had all of them pop though! Hope you get some wild Geno's to select a mother from


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Already using nutes on the seedlings? You may have a nute burn problem on your hands quickly if that is the case. Usually want them to get some roots and leaves before the nutes. I think third node is what a lot of people wait for and then use 1/4-1/2 strength nutes. Glad you had all of them pop though! Hope you get some wild Geno's to select a mother from


Not with peat pellets. They have absolutely no food for the plant to use. I am abiding by the Fox Farms feeding chart that came with my nutes. Plants are looking beautiful. They have only been fed once so far, and that was big bloom which helps establish strong roots. Now if I had germinated in an amended soil that was loaded with nutrients, then no, I would not be feeding on a regular basis.

Thanks. I hope I get a good mom too. Which ever one looks and smells the most like bubble gum. I want to do a scrog grow, but may wait until I'm out of seeds and have two mom candidates. I'll be starting other 5 seeds about 4 weeks into flower.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 6, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Not with peat pellets. They have absolutely no food for the plant to use. I am abiding by the Fox Farms feeding chart that came with my nutes. Plants are looking beautiful. They have only been fed once so far, and that was big bloom which helps establish strong roots. Now if I had germinated in an amended soil that was loaded with nutrients, then no, I would not be feeding on a regular basis.


Great, sounds like you are on top of it. Did you ever get specs on the LED angle of the fixtures you got? I am thinking about buying onter light, but wanted to see the angle in print before ordering


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## rolo (Aug 6, 2010)

any pics to update with?


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Great, sounds like you are on top of it. Did you ever get specs on the LED angle of the fixtures you got? I am thinking about buying onter light, but wanted to see the angle in print before ordering


You are probably going to have to custom order a light to get 60 downs. The light-print is so much smaller, although more intense. I'm not trying to chase down the specs on these lights anymore. I own them, it's what is what. I did find out that by wide spectrum, they are referring to wavelengths, not degrees of angle. 

Hi Rolo. I'll be taking pics probably on Sunday. Today is only the 9th day since I started to germ them. They're only seedlings, under flouro's now. But good looking seedlings with nice purple stems. I'm hoping the stem stays that color as they grow. I think it will. When the stems and leaves first emerged, the stem was a light greenish white. It took on the color purple on it's second day emerged.


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## DUBS Doobious (Aug 6, 2010)

Your my hero!
+Rep
Definitely Subbed for this one brother
I've been lookin for an unbiased experience with LEDs (not someone who is with an LED company)
Your setup looks amazing man I gotta say.
very professional, very clean.
Man, that guy a few pages back was an ASShole,
He was probably pissed that you didn't give out your location so he could narc on you..fuckin chode..
anyways, good luck with the grow
I'll be creepin'
DUBS


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## Serapis (Aug 6, 2010)

Thanks Dubs for the kind words. We'll leave that asshole back on the previous pages. Thanks for reading up. I'm excited and I hope that everything I've researched on these lights is accurate. If so, we are indeed in for a good ride. The strain we are growing can reach as high as 100 cm, which is about 40" plus the pots, so close to 4'. that will push the height of the flower space as the LED's cannot go much higher. Future grows will be scrog, where I intend to harvest about a 1.5lbs every 2 months, if this strain will do it. This grow and the following grow will be to find the phonemes closest to bubble gum. I've never seen that strain here and to actually have a hint of bubble gum to the flavor and smell would be awesome. I'm so used to the dank pine stuff and I'm ready for something sweet. I hear this strain is very easy to grow and hardy. I will be topping, because I want to see what the plant can do. Shooting for 4 colas per plant. Best plant will be re-vegged for cuttings.

Sorry for running off at the fingers, in lieu of beautiful pics of flowering ladies, I'm filling in the space with thoughts, ideas and plans.

Tune in Sunday for seedling porn.


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## bigill (Aug 7, 2010)

Serapis said:


> +REP for you too!
> 
> As for auto-flower, who said anything about auto-flower? If I did, I was referring to something else, not my girls. I've not tried auto-flower yet. I assume it is from seeds induced late in the flowering cycle? I know they show their sex within 2 weeks of veg. Thats all I kow about em. I like feminized seeds. I'm in no rush  I may now have a scrog of 5! That seems like 2 too many for a 2' x 4.5'.


thanks for the rep just figured that out now and yea... i dont know what a scrog is


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## Serapis (Aug 7, 2010)

bigill said:


> thanks for the rep just figured that out now and yea... i dont know what a scrog is


A scrog grow is where you alter the plant's vertical grow into a horizontal one for one level and smooth canopy. You do so by suspending a net over some plants. As the plant grows through the net, you bend over the growth and pull it through an unused square or space in the net. You keep this up until hopefully the net is full and every growth end will form a cola. It is not unheard of to get a single plant to produce up to a lb of bud using this method.

For more info, check out this bad ass thread! https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/318783-scrog-club.html


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## bigill (Aug 7, 2010)

yea one of the first grows i've seen used this method now i'm really interested! even though its just one more thing to add to my list 
thanks for clarifying. *i hope to see some updates soon!*


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## Serapis (Aug 7, 2010)

*pic update*

Here is the weekend update I promised. These are just over a week old, including germ time. You'll notice by looking at the pictures the different maturity levels; which is due to seeds cracking at different days. 

The single plant shots are taken in order of maturity, and are all different plants, for a total of 5. Notice the markings on the first leaves of the second plant. The pattern matches on both sides. I'm thinking this is a "birth" mark from the seed casing.

Plant number 4 almost looks as if something was gnawing on the leaves, but upon closer inspection, the deformation has a match on the opposite leave and there is no sign of bugs or other problems.

They were watered with straight water about 8 hours ago and I'll allow them to go 2 more days without water. I gave them a healthy watering today of oxygenated water with h2o2 added for good measure. The roots should be drinking oxygen tonight.

The cups are 9 oz Solos that are 4" to the bottom, to allow a good tap root to form. I don't want to rush them to one gallon pots, but I hope to transplant next weekend and get them under LED lights. They should be ready to veg well by then.

The baby in solo shot 5 was the one that took 9 days to germinate. We'll call her "Runt". I'll tag the plants with names and numbers once in the new pot so we can track their growth. We are looking for the best genetics for a mom plant. We'll also let the others bud up for some smoke in time Halloween! 

Feel free to post comments... kiss-ass

EDIT: I apologize, the forum attachment manager does what it wants. It has rearranged the pictures in no particular order. Next week they'll be labeled.


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## 1mikej (Aug 7, 2010)

if you root them in rock wool till they root then put them in 5in baskets you wont need to transplant, just put the whole thing in the bigger pot. transplanting can shock them and that will cost you a week or 2 of growing


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## Serapis (Aug 7, 2010)

1mikej said:


> if you root them in rock wool till they root then put them in 5in baskets you wont need to transplant, just put the whole thing in the bigger pot. transplanting can shock them and that will cost you a week or 2 of growing


Thanks, but I work with plants all the time and transplant. There is no sense in putting a seedling in my one gallon pots because of the amount of water it would take to make sure the roots are reaching it. A careful transplant into the exact same medium mix will reduce any shock to the plant. A smaller pot will allow the tap root to stop at 4" and allow the roots to form a healthy system, I don't have more soil than I need retaining water or leeching nitrogen, and I can have more seedlings or cuttings in the nursery until I can move them to veg.

All in all, I feel I get a better root system by starting off in smaller containers. It also reduces soil toxicity, because the pot will have fresh soil just when it is ready to go into flowering and I want to shock the plant a bit, for it is going to react by getting defensive just as I change it's light regiment. Perfect for flowers.

You bring up a good subject that has been debated for the ages. Any other opinions about starting seedlings in their final pots? Do you guys do it for simplicity or ease?


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## bigill (Aug 7, 2010)

what is oxygenated water and how can i obtain it?


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## Serapis (Aug 8, 2010)

Please don't quote my entire update to ask a simple question. Just click on the "Reply" icon please.

You just use an aquarium air pump and feed an air hose from the pump to the bottom of a reservoir. attached to an air stone. It bubbles in the water and oxygenates it. I also Hydrogen Peroxide to my watering reservoir.


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## bigill (Aug 8, 2010)

oh hydroponics.. i thought this was going to be a potted grow... and sorry man didnt think it would be that bad ill edit it.


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## sogalax (Aug 8, 2010)

Very very nice grow.few I just powered through all 12pages. I was using a similar size(if not the same) closet and I found a 13"x45" ebb and flow tray that fit the shelf perfect.i got it locally but the shop has a website if ur interested.


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## Serapis (Aug 8, 2010)

Thanks, but this is a soil grow. I use a water reservoir to water.


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## bigill (Aug 8, 2010)

hey whats the name of that black fan you got there? and is it quite?


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## o2ezz (Aug 8, 2010)

Legit setup man! I am also looking at LED's off Ebay. I just orderd (4) 250 Led lights. I'm going to have 3 plants and 2 LEDs on the back wall and 2 ovr head. andfor flowering i have a 400 watt HPS light. There has been much talk about LEDs and how they are a waste of money, but i still cant wait to see how your plants do. I ordered AK-48 seeds off Nirvania/ [email protected]!


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## Serapis (Aug 8, 2010)

The name of the fan is "Feature Comforts" and was purchased at Lowes for about $10


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## Serapis (Aug 8, 2010)

o2ezz said:


> Legit setup man! I am also looking at LED's off Ebay. I just orderd (4) 250 Led lights. I'm going to have 3 plants and 2 LEDs on the back wall and 2 ovr head. andfor flowering i have a 400 watt HPS light. There has been much talk about LEDs and how they are a waste of money, but i still cant wait to see how your plants do. I ordered AK-48 seeds off Nirvania/ [email protected]!


I intend to use LED lighting for the entire grow and see what they can do.

Good luck with your grow.


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## bigill (Aug 8, 2010)

does the fan make any noise? or is it moderately noisy?


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## Serapis (Aug 8, 2010)

My man, if it was moderately noisy would it be in my stealth grow closet?


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## bigill (Aug 8, 2010)

Serapis said:


> My man, if it was moderately noisy would it be in my stealth grow closet?


iight i feel you


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## WattSaver (Aug 8, 2010)

I've just joined this site and have spent the last few hrs reading this thread. I'm interested in your LED grow, cause I'm trying it myself. I like your mini set up and it sounds like you've done your homework. I do have a few ?? and comments.

I'm still concerned about your height limitation. Bending and trimming will keep them down but will increase your horz surface area. One thing I have noticed using the LED is that the light strength diminishes quickly as you get outside of the frame of the light housing. So I'd say to increase horz surface outside the fixture will weaken or slow bud formation. Also in an earlier set of post the discussion was on led wattage's and the 1 watt diode being more efficient than the 3 watt'ers. I have a 350w 6 spectrum combo 3 and 1 watt diode lamp. I've taken my cheap light intensity meter and compared my lamp to a comparable 300 all 1 watt lamp (actual diode wattage 320 & 288 from 12" down my lamp has twice the intensity and I can still place my hand on the lens. I've seen a 180w lamp with 30 6w diodes and the heat coming off of it was intense for a LED. So I'd say the 3w is an upgrade to the 1w but I'm not sold on the 6w. (I didn't get a chance for and intensity test before it sold from the grow store)

What are the physical dimensions of your 120w fixtures? 

Another item I didn't see (maybe I missed it) any stench control.

Also I'm very interested in your side lighting being its in the veg lighting spectrum (mostly blue). And seeing if this helps during flowering. I've got floro tubes for side lighting with a mix of 6500 & 3000 k bulbs. Thinking of going to all 3000

Best of luck with your grow. I'd be happy to answer any LED questions I can. If you want to see my lamp in action I'll post some pics. I don't want to start a journal or thread. But I do want to hear about all your results.


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## Serapis (Aug 8, 2010)

The problem with the light meter is it is not measuring intensity of the blue and the red spectrums, it is measuring off the white and orange more than likely. Scrog growing is perfect for LED lights, as the LEDs do not penetrate like the HIDs do. That is why I have two overheads in a 9' sq grow to light up the canopy evenly while keeping the source close. As far as why a 1w is more efficient than a 3w, that is something I read while doing my homework. I didn't absorb the science behind the explanation, but it made sense to me at the time.

I'm concerned about height too, thats why I grow predominantly short strains, not straight sativa. It is also why I intend to scrog, which will provide a much bigger yield anyways.

Physical dimensions of the units are 17" x 12.5" x 3" I believe.

For odor control, I'm using two negative ion generators. The strain is also supposed to smell something between cat piss and bubblegum. If the ionic generators can't control the odors, I'll add some ona, but I'm not going to vent through charcoal. 

The top chamber will act as a veg and flower room, depending on what I have going on. I can veg below as well in the nursery if needed. While the plant benefits more from red spectrums in flowering, it can still use the blue as well. Don't forget, most growing and stretching takes place in flowering and most experts recommend both spectrums for both stages. Blue for veg and Red for flower is a minimum, not an ideal.

I'm interested in ANY LED grows and the results. seems a lot of the threads end with breakins, burglary, insects, etc. It is rare to watch a thread from begining to end and get a dry harvest weight. I intend to finish this and post that, whether it is embarrassing or not. I can always make adjustments on the second grow, even if it means adding a hid lamp and reflector (400w) if I do.


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## Retris (Aug 9, 2010)

Serapis said:


> It's cool!  LOL... It looked like you were setting me up for a follow up question that was going to bash LEDs.... If you have a few months before you start growing, sub this thread and kick back and let's see what the lights can do together.


Haha alright sounds good. I would definitely like to know the 'do's and dont's' of growing GOOD marijuana.


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## DUBS Doobious (Aug 9, 2010)

Serapis said:


> +REP for you too!
> 
> As for auto-flower, who said anything about auto-flower? If I did, I was referring to something else, not my girls. I've not tried auto-flower yet. I assume it is from seeds induced late in the flowering cycle? I know they show their sex within 2 weeks of veg. Thats all I kow about em. I like feminized seeds. I'm in no rush  I may now have a scrog of 5! That seems like 2 too many for a 2' x 4.5'.


There are three documented subspecies of Cannabis; sativa, indica, and ruderalis.

That last one, ruderalis is a plant that will flower independent of photoperiod, in the wild, when it gets a certain height the hormones for reproduction kicks in regardless of what season it is. It is a very hardy plant.

The ruderalis is actually shit weed. The latest advanced in the industry's genetics have birthed auto-flowering strains, the combined potency of the indicas and sativas and the auto-flowering genetics of the ruderalis.

Theres a market for these plants because they can literally be grown as window sill plants. little care is needed just the occasional watering and feeding.
a lil FYI for a Serapis


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## DUBS Doobious (Aug 9, 2010)

Oh and you mentioned that if your dry harvest weight isn't satisfactory you would look into getting an HID. 
The combination of LED and Compact Fluorescent is a huge step up in your flowering chamber. just hang a couple of those vertically between your plants to supplement their spectrum. 
hope this helps.


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## Serapis (Aug 9, 2010)

DUBS Doobious said:


> There are three documented subspecies of Cannabis; sativa, indica, and ruderalis.
> 
> That last one, ruderalis is a plant that will flower independent of photoperiod, in the wild, when it gets a certain height the hormones for reproduction kicks in regardless of what season it is. It is a very hardy plant.
> 
> ...


Thanks! I certainly have no interest in growing window sill plants. 

I'll look into making a CFL octopus type device for adding on the second grow. Thanks for that tip! I want to see what straight up LEDs do
I'll have a second batch of seeds going in a few weeks, so not to worry.


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## Retris (Aug 10, 2010)

Just took the time to read the whole thread and I think the green christmas lights for the scrog is brilliant! I don't think I ever would have thought of that, how did it come to you?


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## Serapis (Aug 10, 2010)

Retris said:


> Just took the time to read the whole thread and I think the green christmas lights for the scrog is brilliant! I don't think I ever would have thought of that, how did it come to you?


I was trying to solve two problems at once; seeing in the "dark" and how to build a scrog net.  The solution seemed to find itself.


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## Retris (Aug 10, 2010)

Haha that is awesome. I am interested to see how that works out! 

What nutrients do you plan on mixing with your water once you start that process?


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## Serapis (Aug 10, 2010)

*Seedlings moved to LED area!*

I decided today that since the plants were looking good and the stem is starting to thicken, I would move them to my LED area, after all, all that money is sitting by idly awaiting them. I'm going to go 24 hours on the lights for the next two weeks. One week before flower, I'll move to 18/6 and start adding Open Sesame to the water. They'll get their first shot of Big Grow at the next watering, probably Thursday, depending on how fast the soil dries out.

The two plants on the right, #'s 3 and 4 (I need to get tags on them) will get misting of seltzer water every day, twice a day. I want to see if we can see a difference. Right now, those seedlings are about 48 hours behind the two plants on the left that sprouted first. So we are going to test that theory as well. Universities have proven the theory that seltzer water with CO2 is good for plants, but let's document it here on this grow as well.

*Lighting for Flowering*

I've been thinking hard about this and since it is my only source of personal weed at the moment, I may drop some CFLs down from the ceiling to add some light. I'll only do this if flowers aren't dense. I do have the 3 additional nutes for flowering, Open Sesame, Cha Ching and Beastie Blooms.

I'll update with more pics this weekend.


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## Serapis (Aug 10, 2010)

Quick Update:

Almost screwed up. Checked on plants 4 hours into their first LED exposure (I waited too long, should have been two hours) and the very tips of the first true leaves were starting to turn upwards. It was 90 degrees in my otherwise 82 degree closet (so much for no heat LEDs).

This proves roots have some ways to go yet, may just place back in Flouro nursery as roots unable to supply water quick enough to leaves. Cups feel heavy and moisture indicator reads in middle, so not dry like I would like before next watering.

Remedies: I've turned exhaust fan on high and it now runs 24/7. Raised LED Panel to 12" above plants and misted with 6.5 PH water.

Temp has dropped to 84 and is steady. Leaves appear to have quit turning upwards. #1 shows slight browning on very tip, as you'll see in next pics if I don't kill these first.

I plan to keep an eye on plants every 2 hours for next 10 hours.


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## Serapis (Aug 10, 2010)

I contacted HTG supply and no one there knows how high to hang these Tri-bands that they "so extensively tested". At 12", further tip damage was observed and edge of all leaves was a lighter green, indicating wicking, or drying. I have moved the plants back to Flouro lighting. They may remain there the rest of vegetation, which is a shame. Today set them back a week at least.

I'm pissed at HTG for not knowing anything about a product they claim to have designed and tested exclusively. I'm going to have to learn to use these damn lights on my own it appears.... Almost $600 and I'm pissed. 12" above 2 week old plants should be fine I'm told, but it wasn't. At least it proves the lights have a high intensity.


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## tranquility (Aug 10, 2010)

damn man its gay how they kinda like false advertised that. i dont know much about LED's but i would say add another 6" maybe?


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## Serapis (Aug 10, 2010)

Plants are in the nursery, looking sun burnt  I have them under Cool Whites, 12" from the tops. I'll give them six hours of dark tonight and re-evaluate in the morning. Meanwhile, I started to germ the other 5 seeds as a back up. If I have 10 plants by end of next week I'll be very surprised.

HTG still has not responded with a recommended height. He did reply back that it sounded like nutrient burns. I replied back and again asked what height the unit should sit over the plants and am still awaiting an answer. I did tell Allen at HTG that the plants haven't been feed in over a week, and the leaves were turned UP and browning from the tip. It is obviously heat stress. I'm thinking the lights should be about 24" above the canopy. Information I find in Google seconds that. Not sure why Allen thought 10" was OK....


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 10, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Plants are in the nursery, looking sun burnt  I have them under Cool Whites, 12" from the tops. I'll give them six hours of dark tonight and re-evaluate in the morning. Meanwhile, I started to germ the other 5 seeds as a back up. If I have 10 plants by end of next week I'll be very surprised.
> 
> HTG still has not responded with a recommended height. He did reply back that it sounded like nutrient burns. I replied back and again asked what height the unit should sit over the plants and am still awaiting an answer. I did tell Allen at HTG that the plants haven't been feed in over a week, and the leaves were turned UP and browning from the tip. It is obviously heat stress. I'm thinking the lights should be about 24" above the canopy. Information I find in Google seconds that. Not sure why Allen thought 10" was OK....


I would say you are good at 12". Everything I have come across in my research of LED's (not brand specific) is in the 6-18" range. I would say the seedlings just aren't ready for that intense light. As you have mentioned earlier, LED's use only useable light. You could think of it as using 5-10x as many bulbs. Let them get good roots, then put them close to the light and see them go crazy!

I know you are excited but be patient. One bad move at any point in the grow can send one or all of your plants on a downward spiral. It's good to learn first hand though so I reiterate, be patient


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## Serapis (Aug 10, 2010)

Thanks for the kind words. I'm going to stick with 18" on the plants when I place them back in. I can lower slowly if needed, but I'm doubting it. These damn lights are blinding.


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## tendran (Aug 11, 2010)

Find room for your ten plants, I don't see any reason good sized seedlings like that couldn't recover. Give em a couple days in the flouros and put them under the raised leds when they perk back up as you make room for the new seedlings in the flouro chamber. Higher watt led's do give off a reasonable level of heat comparable per watt with other lighting. The light itself may not be hot, but the electronics behind the scenes still heat up your grow room without some ventilation.

You got this though man, no worries here!


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## TheJointProject (Aug 11, 2010)

I have yet to find an entire grow done with LED only. Usually see it done with CFL or HID with the LED thrown in. I'm excited to see what these can really do. I agree that LED will be the way of the future but I'm not convinced that the technology is quite there yet. please don't take this as me bashing on LEDs because I'm not. I've been wanting to see what they can do completely on there own since my first grow. My oppinion is solely based on what i have seen and I'm hoping you can finally put the rumors to rest. The room looks great! My only concern would be light leaks from your exaust fan into your bathroom. any plans on how you will combat this? once again, looking great so far. I'm subscribed and along for the ride. and while i'm at it, here's some +rep for you and your new girls.


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## Serapis (Aug 11, 2010)

tendran said:


> Find room for your ten plants, I don't see any reason good sized seedlings like that couldn't recover. Give em a couple days in the flouros and put them under the raised leds when they perk back up as you make room for the new seedlings in the flouro chamber. Higher watt led's do give off a reasonable level of heat comparable per watt with other lighting. The light itself may not be hot, but the electronics behind the scenes still heat up your grow room without some ventilation.
> 
> You got this though man, no worries here!


Thanks Tendran. I hope you are right.If we see any new growth in a couple of days, they have survived. The runt seedling did fine. It shows no signs of heat stress.



TheJointProject said:


> I have yet to find an entire grow done with LED only. Usually see it done with CFL or HID with the LED thrown in. I'm excited to see what these can really do. I agree that LED will be the way of the future but I'm not convinced that the technology is quite there yet. please don't take this as me bashing on LEDs because I'm not. I've been wanting to see what they can do completely on there own since my first grow. My oppinion is solely based on what i have seen and I'm hoping you can finally put the rumors to rest. The room looks great! My only concern would be light leaks from your exaust fan into your bathroom. any plans on how you will combat this? once again, looking great so far. I'm subscribed and along for the ride. and while i'm at it, here's some +rep for you and your new girls.


Thanks TJP. I'm also thinking about what to do with that exhaust. I did get some dark curtains for the bathroom window and a small night light. My only concern is walking in late at night and flipping the switch by accident. I could place a green bulb in the light fixture.


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## Retris (Aug 11, 2010)

> Thanks TJP. I'm also thinking about what to do with that exhaust. I did get some dark curtains for the bathroom window and a small night light. My only concern is walking in late at night and flipping the switch by accident. I could place a green bulb in the light fixture.


Are you leaving the fan(s) on 24/7 or on a timed schedule?


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## Smrt (Aug 11, 2010)

My opinion is that youre going about the grow the wrong way, because LED's are not recommended for flowering due to the intensity that they lack. You know this. If I was to do what you are doing, I would have done the grow S.O.G. style, therefore giving the whole plant more useable light. If you're lucky, the top 6" of the plant MIGHT do ok. So you wasted a foot of vegetative growth. Understand what Im sayin ? By the way, reps to the setup, you did a nice job. And the leaky light issue you have, you could make an L shaped box to put over the fan. The L would be upside down tho. And make it way longer than it needs to be, leaving only the bottom of the L box open, get what Im sayin ?


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## Serapis (Aug 11, 2010)

Smrt said:


> My opinion is that youre going about the grow the wrong way, because LED's are not recommended for flowering due to the intensity that they lack. You know this. If I was to do what you are doing, I would have done the grow S.O.G. style, therefore giving the whole plant more useable light. If you're lucky, the top 6" of the plant MIGHT do ok. So you wasted a foot of vegetative growth. Understand what Im sayin ? By the way, reps to the setup, you did a nice job. And the leaky light issue you have, you could make an L shaped box to put over the fan. The L would be upside down tho. And make it way longer than it needs to be, leaving only the bottom of the L box open, get what Im sayin ?


Actually my man, I don't get what you are sayin.... You obviously didn't read much. I'm glad you enjoyed the pictures though.  These lights have enough intensity to burn plants without using any heat! They'll also melt your eyeballs out of your socket.  They are intense, really. My camera won't even function correctly when pointed at them. 

I will be scroggin my man when I'm sure i am weaving females. Scroll back a few pages.

Thanks for L design box. Not that much light comes through though. I may just need something like a filter


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## Serapis (Aug 11, 2010)

Thanks for the +reps peeps.... I'm deeply honored.


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## Smrt (Aug 11, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Actually my man, I don't get what you are sayin.... You obviously didn't read much. I'm glad you enjoyed the pictures though.  These lights have enough intensity to burn plants without using any heat! They'll also melt your eyeballs out of your socket.  They are intense, really. My camera won't even function correctly when pointed at them.
> 
> I will be scroggin my man when I'm sure i am weaving females. Scroll back a few pages.
> 
> Thanks for L design box. Not that much light comes through though. I may just need something like a filter


Im sayin I think you could do better with smaller plants. dont take offense to it, it wasnt intended that way, with what you have, condense it a bit more, thats what Im tryin to say, more lumens per cubic foot. And about the L, you dont want NO light comin through if it's gonna reach the plants, pitch black dude  Fuk those green lights even ! Lookin forward to your results, keepin a tab on it cuz Id like to veg with LED. Im a tru HPS guy for flower tho, and lots of it


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## Serapis (Aug 11, 2010)

I feel ya on the smaller plants, thats my intention. One of these will be a mother, maybe two, but many budders. I'm using white 7" square pots that are 8" deep, for a great root system. The bottom inch will be river pebbles for drainage and reverse waterings. I can have 18 going at once, topped, thats about 36-60 colas. Or I can scrog with 4 of em and take my time and weave a net. I just want to do that with clones from a good female.


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## WattSaver (Aug 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Plants are in the nursery, looking sun burnt  I have them under Cool Whites, 12" from the tops. I'll give them six hours of dark tonight and re-evaluate in the morning. Meanwhile, I started to germ the other 5 seeds as a back up. If I have 10 plants by end of next week I'll be very surprised.
> 
> HTG still has not responded with a recommended height. He did reply back that it sounded like nutrient burns. I replied back and again asked what height the unit should sit over the plants and am still awaiting an answer. I did tell Allen at HTG that the plants haven't been feed in over a week, and the leaves were turned UP and browning from the tip. It is obviously heat stress. I'm thinking the lights should be about 24" above the canopy. Information I find in Google seconds that. Not sure why Allen thought 10" was OK....


Your little girls should have no problem with the LED. But you are doing a few things I wouldn't. I don't spray seedlings they have a tap root and should be absorbing through the root system. The moisture on the tender leafs can cause them to curl and burn under intense light as the moisture evaporates. I don't use any nutes during the first 3 to 4 weeks, there is plenty of food in good seedling starter soil for this period, and again over fert will cause the leaf tips to brown. I've never tried to veg with the LED but it is much more intense than the floro's. I keep the floro's 8 - 10 above seedings and start bringing them down after the 3rd or 4th node. With LED on seedlings I'd stay at least 12" above if not more. Another thing do not change your light cycle, pick one 18/6 or 24/0 and stick with it during veg. It will stress the plants if you play with their light. Most of all be patient, your girls should recover.

I've attached a few photos to show LED's do work well to flower. They are at day 23 of flower cycle. The C 99 is flowering strong (indica strain) and the other 5 are a sativa strain and are just starting to form nuggets.


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## Serapis (Aug 12, 2010)

Nice looking grow area. Thanks for sharing the tips, tricks and photos. You are right about the intensity of the LED lighting. No heat, but it still "burned" my leaves at 10" above the seedlings. One is already showing new growth, one looks like it has a foot in it's grave, and a couple of others look like they may pull out of it. I'm sticking with 20/4 on the lights. I just gave them an extra 2 hours after their run in with LED lighting.

On the new seeds, it looks they are starting to pop. I see 3 little loops coming out of the peat so far.


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## Serapis (Aug 12, 2010)

I'm happy to say I solved the light leaks based on a response in this thread. I went to my trusty K-Mart and found carbon filter sheets that I stuffed in the exhaust fan grille and fastened with super glue. I'd say it knocked out about 99% of what light was coming through. This photo shows the bathroom wall while the LEDS are on. before and after the fix.

At first install, you can see the light from the LED room easily coming through the exhaust fan into the bathroom.

View attachment 1095208

Installing the active carbon sheets into the grille.

View attachment 1095192

How it appears after the fix is installed. As you can see, no light is leaking through either view, the bathroom or the flower room. Problem solved. Thanks to the wise reader that suggested the carbon filter sheets. For each picture taken below, the lights were on in the opposite room.

View attachment 1095191View attachment 1095193

I also placed carbon sheets in the inter-exchange vent between the veg and flower areas. a little bit of light leaks through the edges a bit, I can fix with shure tape if necessary. I believe the light is very minimal. Assorted photos below.

005.jpg is the guard dog on stand down.


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## Smrt (Aug 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> The bottom inch will be river pebbles for drainage and reverse waterings.


I'd strongly advise against river pebble and I'll tell you why. I learned this through my aquarium/tropical fish hobby. I found a bunch of cool rocks to throw into my 90 gallon tank and it killed a handful of my fish cuz some rocks have rediculous ph levels, wether it's high or low, cant remember. But you cant condition rock like you can soil or rockwool. My suggestion is to spend a few bux and get a bag of hydroton. It's the best stuff to use for this application and it wont break your pocket, 1 $25 bag will do you a few grows for sure and it'll keep your girls safe.


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## tendran (Aug 12, 2010)

Hydroton is turning out to be very versatile. I had some that came with a hydro farm that's not currently being used (going to start growing peach trees in about 3 months after they finish germinating) so I've been using it in all my household plants as drainage beneath the soil. It does a terrific job of keeping the soil from all washing through large drainage holes. It looks nice and uniform, it helps with bottom feeding (as you intend to do) and as the above poster said, it's perfectly safe for your ladies.


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## Serapis (Aug 12, 2010)

Sigh, whats another $20? Ordered it.... I live in a city of over 1 million and nearest hydro store is downtown near cop station. Not going.... Shipping 10lbs is a bitch...


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## tendran (Aug 13, 2010)

Haha, they can sell evidence, arrest you, fine you, confiscate the evidence, refurbish and resell the evidence to the next sucka. What a bargain.

I tested a nute solution on some runts and the taller of the two perked right the f' up and the other 3 haven't had any adverse side effects.. so I don't think feeding them a very diluted formula is going to hurt them at all even at about 2 weeks old.

Glad you're going with hydroton. I don't know about the whole river rock ph issue, but why risk it? Amazon might (I'm too tired to go check) sell hydroton, and if they did, you could qualify for free super saver shipping with a certain purchase amount regardless of the weight of your order.


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## Serapis (Aug 13, 2010)

tendran said:


> Haha, they can sell evidence, arrest you, fine you, confiscate the evidence, refurbish and resell the evidence to the next sucka. What a bargain.
> 
> I tested a nute solution on some runts and the taller of the two perked right the f' up and the other 3 haven't had any adverse side effects.. so I don't think feeding them a very diluted formula is going to hurt them at all even at about 2 weeks old.
> 
> Glad you're going with hydroton. I don't know about the whole river rock ph issue, but why risk it? Amazon might (I'm too tired to go check) sell hydroton, and if they did, you could qualify for free super saver shipping with a certain purchase amount regardless of the weight of your order.


I've ordered 10 pounds with free shipping. $20.... I guess shipping wasn't really free, just included. Got some bad news possibly with new seeds. I'm just struck for bad luck. I've never seen this happen before....

https://www.rollitup.org/marijuana-plant-problems/357428-nirvana-germination-peat-pellets-have.html


If I lose those seeds, I'm not going to have much of anything growing.... and I'm broke now... This is a sad day.... The only thing I have that looks good now is a runt that has no leaf damage. 4 seedlings with severe leaf damage and 5 peat pellets germinating what looks like mold. Just my luck....


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## Serapis (Aug 13, 2010)

*Plan of Action*

After some research, I have mixed a solution of water and hydrogen peroxide and sprayed the peat pellets liberally with it. I am leaving the dome off and will keep pellets moist myself, in an attempt to kill off the mold and not let it return. It has happened to other growers before from what I've found out online. The Jiffy propagator I have has no holes in the dome lid and the moisture level was too high. I'll be adding some ventilation to that dome lid for future use. I have a new 10" x 20" tray and dome with adjustable vents for propagating clones in the future. My Clonex gel is ready, I just need plants, lol.

Please keep your fingers crossed for the seed pellets and seeds. As for me, I have to quit caring. If I do, they'll all grow and everything will be all right.


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## Smrt (Aug 13, 2010)

I just replied to your other thread, check it out.


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## Serapis (Aug 14, 2010)

*Update*

Weed is a versatile thing

I haven't been closely watching the plants recover. In fact, after removing from the LEDs, I thoroughly watered, put em on 20/4 lights and left em alone for three days. Amazingly, the first set of leaves held on just long enough for new growth to appear. The runt for some reason was not damaged by the LEDs and is now the best looking plant. I hate looking at pictures of injured plants, so I'm going to spare all of you. Maybe I'll do an update next weekend after new growth has established. I think all 5 are gonna make it.

Seeds:

Day 4, still no germination. I have the peat pellets in a breathable propagator now, no sign of wispy mold. One of them appears to have a tap root sticking up out of it, which is not a good sign. I'm sure the seeds were deep enough, this one just got confused it seems. I doubt it is going to make it. I'm not sure if I should interfere or not it is white and appears to be alive. I'm keeping it wet.

*UPDATE:*

Day 5, germination of 3 pellets.


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## Magua (Aug 15, 2010)

Subscribed... interested in seeing more people actually following through with LED's and stick with it, for the sake of science. 

Would solve a number of problems if we can get these lights to produce.


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## Serapis (Aug 15, 2010)

Amen to that. I've seen some nice nug come from the newer LEDs. I hope to replicate. Clone grow will be scrog.


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## Scrumscab (Aug 15, 2010)

I really hope you are successfull with your grow. I am so ready to jump over to LEDs, but just don't have the confidence yet. It would be nice to see your efforts change that. Whatever the results are, I'm sure we are going to learn a lot.

Subscribed


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 16, 2010)

Hello again, Serapis!

I found this in your sig when you replied to Ralphie's queries about HTG's 300 watt triband LED, and I just finished reading through the whole thing. I skimmed a little bit, but I made sure not to miss anything. I'm really impressed with your rigor and diligence; there are so many people that attempt an LED grow but cave in to the anti-LED pressure and either abandon ship or supplement with some other lighting before they're halfway through the grow. People seriously need to have more patience and confidence! How are we gonna know if it's the lights or the inexperience with 'em?! Obviously people aren't seeing the same immediate results that they see with HIDs or other and get nervous about blowin' the grow on it. But you'll never know until you play around with your setup and find a good dial-in to finish your grow, people!

Anyhow, I noticed that you haven't gone back to the LEDs yet since your first encounter, and I think I've noticed something maybe the others haven't: Everyone, including you, is focusing on the height that your overhead lights were from your plants. But were your side lights on at the same time? If so, how far were _they_ from your plants? It could be that they were just hit with too much light from all directions at once at such a tender age and were shocked really badly by it. I would recommend turning those off until they get comfortable with the overhead lights once you decide to have a second go of it. Food for thought.

I also have another suggestion in case you haven't thought of it yourself: Since your side lights are only on one side, have you considered rotating your plants and giving the individual planters a quarter turn daily? That would optimize light usage without having to add lights to other sides.

I'm in the middle of the research and development phase of my own all-LED SoG grow (not because I don't have confidence in the foliar penetration; I just want maximum bud production per square foot); I thought up the rotation scheme when considering the number of plants that'll have to share the same light source(s), but in all likelihood it's common knowledge. Some of the stuff I've read and seen on LEDs recently has me a bit shaken, like luckyskindaguy's buds, and those were grown with supplemental CFL lighting (don't get me wrong, your yield was good, lucky; I mean no disrespect: I just hope I can grow bigger buds than those with just LEDs!). But I'm more confident in the technology than others. I've seen big buds from people who claim to've used nothing but LEDs, I just haven't seen the documentation to prove it.

I can't wait to see how well this turns out, and your pics and documenting style are really precise and intriguing without going into excessive detail and pics. Although more would be nice!  I really, sincerely admire your discipline: I'm totally subbed and giving you +rep!

Cannabinoidally yours,
The Cannabist Communist


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## Serapis (Aug 16, 2010)

Hello Scrumscab and and Cannabist! Welcome aboard.

I wish I had something worth photographing, but i don't. I believe I have lost the first seedling in the nursery that didn't like the LEDs, the rest have new growth and are standing straight up. The last seed to pop, the runt, is now the biggest. She is looking good and appears to be extruding her second true node. She is under direct flouros with a cycle of 20/4 and appears to be loving it.

The second batch of seeds are looking good. I have 3 poped so far, and fingers crossed for the other two. I have turned off the exhaust fan in an effort to raise the temps a few degrees in there, up to 84, in an attempt to coax the last 2 out of their seed pods.

I did go and purchase a true starting organic soil that has no added nutrients. 16 quart bag and it's super light. I've also decided to add SuperThrive to my watering routine.

I will be rotating plants around. I intend to mark the pots with plant tags and rotate them 180 degrees every watering. This should be easy enough and will allow us to see if $250 in side panels was worth it or a waste of money.

Again, thanks for watching and thanks for the +REP


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Aug 16, 2010)

> The last seed to pop, the runt, is now the biggest


Ah ... sometime it pays to be the slow developer, let others test the water and find the problems 

Thanks for a great informative thread, definitely subscribed and learning all the time.

G.O.D.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 16, 2010)

Cannabist Communist said:


> Hello again, Serapis!
> 
> 
> I also have another suggestion in case you haven't thought of it yourself: Since your side lights are only on one side, have you considered rotating your plants and giving the individual planters a quarter turn daily? That would optimize light usage without having to add lights to other sides.
> ...


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## Retris (Aug 17, 2010)

Cannabist Communist said:


> I also have another suggestion in case you haven't thought of it yourself: Since your side lights are only on one side, have you considered rotating your plants and giving the individual planters a quarter turn daily?


Definitely a good idea, I was thinking about that when I first saw the set up but just started reading the whole post.

Do you have any of that planned yet, Serapis? Still have a little bit of time before they need all the LEDs anyways


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## Serapis (Aug 17, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Cannabist Communist said:
> 
> 
> > Hello again, Serapis!
> ...


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## Retris (Aug 17, 2010)

> You cannot say that about alcohol or any pills that mankind has manufactured


That's what I am sayin! AND this fake, or replacement, "incense" that kids are smoking these days as a 'legal high'. This stuff is not safe, it has been causing young kids to have heart attacks and actually killed a kid in a small town next to my hometown. If you dont know what I am talking about it is K2, Space, Spice, ETC. 

It is amazing that these things that are spray on chemicals onto a plant, that has no effect on you what so ever, are legal. But marijuana, which needs no spray on chemicals and already is chemically structured to get you strictly high and not kill you, is illegal. 

Quite amazed.


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## bandanabill3 (Aug 17, 2010)

Hey man

Been following your grow since you started. I have been very interested in LED grows and its nice to have someone else do the experiment for me. I however do not think i can hold out on starting mine before yours finishes. I have done a enough research into LEDs, but im curious of your opinion, it being one that is not biased at all. I was hoping to set up a closet with less than six plants most likely four, i believe my area is like 3x6. i will running a screen above the babbies, since i have experience with scrog. what lights would you recommend if i wanted to spend about half of what you should have (~1000) on lights. The 120 watt tri-band Led grow light goes for round $250 (got that from your previous links). In addition to one or two of the tri-bands, what else would you recommend. 

Thanks again, and i look forward to following the rest of your grow.


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## Serapis (Aug 17, 2010)

bandanabill3 said:


> Hey man
> 
> Been following your grow since you started. I have been very interested in LED grows and its nice to have someone else do the experiment for me. I however do not think i can hold out on starting mine before yours finishes. I have done a enough research into LEDs, but im curious of your opinion, it being one that is not biased at all. I was hoping to set up a closet with less than six plants most likely four, i believe my area is like 3x6. i will running a screen above the babbies, since i have experience with scrog. what lights would you recommend if i wanted to spend about half of what you should have (~1000) on lights. The 120 watt tri-band Led grow light goes for round $250 (got that from your previous links). In addition to one or two of the tri-bands, what else would you recommend.
> 
> Thanks again, and i look forward to following the rest of your grow.


I would definitely go with two of the 120w tri-bands. The retail is $499 each, but I used HTG auctions rather than buy it now. There was a time the auctions went for nearly the retail but it seems you can get them cheaper now. It is hard for me to advise you at this point, as my plants have only spent about 5 hours under LED and it set me back weeks, because it was too soon for them evidently. (one lesson learned) I would try to buy the tri-bands at about $250 each. There is just too many cheap LED lights out there to recommend checking Craigslist for used lights, but it wouldn't hurt. I have seen from time to time a tri or quad being offered, and you do get to see it in action before paying for it.

I will say this to you, I apologize for my stupidity and for setting this experiment back a couple of weeks. I lost a plant, but the rest are recovering and the runt is working on node 3. The injured plants are working on the first true node, but they are a nice color green and alive, but damn they are growing slow now. I would not be surprised if some of the new seedlings caught them and beat them at maturing. Live and learn.

NEVER LET ANYONE TELL YOU LEDs ARE SAFE FOR 1-2" FROM TOPS. THE LIGHT IS JUST TOO INTENSE FOR YOUNG PLANTS. I went 10" and within 5 hours was showing signs of "sunburn" from the light. It never got the plants hot, but the light evaporated the moisture right out of the leaves like wicks. That is how I know that these will produce growth. For young plants, the LED should not be closer than 18" for the first several days to a week. Then you can begin lowering the lights gradually. Keep a close eye on them during this time.

I plan to be harvesting sometime in October barring any further unseen incidents. This strain does flowering in about 8 weeks under HID lighting, so we'll see with a strict LED flower. After then, I'll be able to answer your question with full authority. I plan to document this grow no matter how it turns out. If warranted, my 2nd LED grow will be a SCROG grow. I believe these lights will be perfect for it.

Whatever you do, get you some cheap shop lights and get the cool white 65k bulbs. (61k or 65k, I forget) Set up a space for seedlings, cuttings, etc. The 2' ones are ridiculous in price, so I went with 4' t-12 shop lights for $9.99 at Lowes and the bulbs came from Walmart, t-8's cool white plus 65k for about $7 a two pack. You can't beat the price for the young plants and mothers.

I'm going to do pics of what I have going on this weekend, including the injured and recovering plants. The "runt" should be at 3 nodes by then. I'll be topping it back to two true nodes once it grows the 4th.

Come back this weekend and check em out.


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Hello Scrumscab and and Cannabist! Welcome aboard.
> 
> I wish I had something worth photographing, but i don't. I believe I have lost the first seedling in the nursery that didn't like the LEDs, the rest have new growth and are standing straight up. The last seed to pop, the runt, is now the biggest. She is looking good and appears to be extruding her second true node. She is under direct flouros with a cycle of 20/4 and appears to be loving it.
> 
> ...


So sorry to hear of your loss! Hope you can work with what you've got. I'm sure you've already got a plan, but I would recommend waiting until they're at least ten inches tall before you have a second go of it. Were your side panels on that time? What about my suggestion to keep the side panels off until your plants get accustomed to your overhead LEDs; are you considering it?



luckyskindaguy said:


> Cannabist Communist said:
> 
> 
> > Hello again, Serapis!
> ...


 
Indeed, your yield was very good for what you're working with, but the sheer size was disheartening. However, you did say that your UFO was purchased from a Chinese vendor on eBay, didn't you? And it's only ninety watts, correct? That is indeed insufficient for what you're doing, even with the CFLs. Even though your total yield was impressive with this, they were largely popcorn buds for the most part. The problem with popcorn buds is they don't get large enough to develop serious resin glands to properly mature and ripen. I'm sure their potency hasn't suffered all that much, but if you do what you said and cultivate two plants and lower your lights some, you could get some fat and potent buds. And if you top 'em you could easily keep their height under control and get a totally level canopy with a little LST. Your total yield may suffer a bit, but your potency and quality will definitely improve. And you said yourself you don't need that much and don't want your girlfriend smoking too much. You can easily increase your potency, and she won't have to smoke as much. I'm sure you're already making improvements, in addition to saving up for new equipment, but I'm just sayin'; there's much you can do with what you've got right now. That said, you've done very well, you've got some really innovative ideas, and I'm sure you're on your way to big buds in no time. I'll stay posted on you, too!

Oh, and congrats on the new couch! It's hard to find a good couch these days. My wife's uncle got a really cool orange couch from his ex-wife recently. It's super big and super comfy. I could easily sleep on it with plenty of head and foot room, and I'm well over six feet tall! And it's so comfy that when you sit on it there's no fighting the comfort; it's just bongworthy. Perhaps we should start a chit-chat thread on stoner furniture.. You sure you don't blaze? You definitely don't sound like one who abstains to me!


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## Serapis (Aug 17, 2010)

OK, after writing the above entry, I pulled out my best looking plant, named Runt. It got it's name because it was the last seed to germinate, after I had given up hope. Before I tossed the pellet, I peeked inside and saw a new tap root so I watered and placed it back in it's warm and dark spot. Two days later, voila, we had germination through the soil!

This plant is now 14 days old and is generating 3rd node leaves. I've placed it under the LED's at a height of 18" and slightly watered with a bit of superthrive water. The lights are set for 24 hours on. I'm going to keep a VERY close eye on this plant until I trust I know these lights fully. You can see from the middle pic that the LED light is high above the plant this time.  Lesson learned...

Come along for the LED ride....

View attachment 1104255View attachment 1104256View attachment 1104257*UPDATE*


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## Serapis (Aug 17, 2010)

Cannabist Communist said:


> So sorry to hear of your loss! Hope you can work with what you've got. I'm sure you've already got a plan, but I would recommend waiting until they're at least ten inches tall before you have a second go of it. Were your side panels on that time? What about my suggestion to keep the side panels off until your plants get accustomed to your overhead LEDs; are you considering it?


I was sure going to, but with the main light source 18" above the plant top, I'd thought I would leave them on for the time being. I'm checking the leaves every 15 minutes. My goal is to get this plant growing well so I can pot up to the 7" square 8" deep pot to give the tap room to grow. Hyrdoton is on the way, so I might be able to transplant this coming weekend.

*UPDATE*

I decided to be 100% safe, side panels are OFF


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I was sure going to, but with the main light source 18" above the plant top, I'd thought I would leave them on for the time being. I'm checking the leaves every 15 minutes. My goal is to get this plant growing well so I can pot up to the 7" square 8" deep pot to give the tap room to grow. Hyrdoton is on the way, so I might be able to transplant this coming weekend.


Lookin' good, man. Nice to see some photos of it in action. I'd say you're prob'ly safe; looks like sufficient distance. Looks like you can put 'em in much earlier than ten inches from where I'm standing. How are the other plants doin'? You still planning to line the bottom with hydroton and fill 'er up with soil? It's all soundin' very good.


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## Smrt (Aug 17, 2010)

Serapis, do yourself a favour and back off on the superthrive. Too much is no good. Superthrive contains a synthetic hormone called Naphthalene Acetic Acid, and too much NAA can do nasty things to your healthy plants. I understand you want the best for your plants and so do I, thats how I got into trouble with superthrive. I'd suggest substituting with vitamin B1 and limit your use of superthrive to once every 2 weeks MAX. B1 is much safer to use on a regular basis but even then, give it a straight watering once in a while. Keep the additives to a minimum.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 17, 2010)

Cannabist Communist said:


> So sorry to hear of your loss! Hope you can work with what you've got. I'm sure you've already got a plan, but I would recommend waiting until they're at least ten inches tall before you have a second go of it. Were your side panels on that time? What about my suggestion to keep the side panels off until your plants get accustomed to your overhead LEDs; are you considering it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I smoke from time to time, maybe 1-2 times a month. My girl smokes daily and a few times a day on the weekend days. Here is a pic of the couch
Might just be the best $50 EVER! That's a 53# Boxer and she only takes up one cushion


Serapis, don't discount the late poppers. Cameo was a late arrival when I sprouted her and a couple other seeds. She turned out to be the best of my bagseeders. Granted you are working with brand name genetics, so it may not make a huge difference but everyone roots for the come from behind victory


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## Serapis (Aug 17, 2010)

Smrt said:


> Serapis, do yourself a favour and back off on the superthrive. Too much is no good. Superthrive contains a synthetic hormone called Naphthalene Acetic Acid, and too much NAA can do nasty things to your healthy plants. I understand you want the best for your plants and so do I, thats how I got into trouble with superthrive. I'd suggest substituting with vitamin B1 and limit your use of superthrive to once every 2 weeks MAX. B1 is much safer to use on a regular basis but even then, give it a straight watering once in a while. Keep the additives to a minimum.


Thanks for the advice. I only use ST when I transplant, germinate or change the light cycle. ST is an excellent product to reduce stress on plants. I use 2 drops per gallon of oxygenated water. I've also switched to an organic starter potting soil. This is the first additive the plant has seen.


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## Serapis (Aug 17, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> I smoke from time to time, maybe 1-2 times a month. My girl smokes daily and a few times a day on the weekend days. Here is a pic of the couch
> View attachment 1104423Might just be the best $50 EVER! That's a 53# Boxer and she only takes up one cushion
> 
> 
> Serapis, don't discount the late poppers. Cameo was a late arrival when I sprouted her and a couple other seeds. She turned out to be the best of my bagseeders. Granted you are working with brand name genetics, so it may not make a huge difference but everyone roots for the come from behind victory


Oh trust me, I know this from past grows. The little guys will almost ALWAYS fool ya. It's like they have something at the end to prove. After 10 days though, I was sure it wasn't going to germ. It proved me wrong as is now the best looking one.

Looking at my pics above, does everyone think that the LED is high enough this time?




It better be, lol.


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## Smrt (Aug 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Thanks for the advice. I only use ST when I transplant, germinate or change the light cycle. ST is an excellent product to reduce stress on plants. I use 2 drops per gallon of oxygenated water. I've also switched to an organic starter potting soil. This is the first additive the plant has seen.


Hey dont get me wrong, it's great stuff, I know it. But too much of ANYTHING is bad. Like I said, Vitamin B1 is alot friendlier for frequent use and cheaper, check it out. Humic/Fulvic acid is good stuff too, humic for veg state and fulvic for flower. I try to stick to 1 additive at a time. If Im doin a grow with minimal additives I'll keep the B1 handy and use it when I water so theyre getting something besides plain water. Like I said tho, thats if Im stickin to a nutes only grow.


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## WattSaver (Aug 18, 2010)

bandanabill3 said:


> Hey man
> 
> Been following your grow since you started. I have been very interested in LED grows and its nice to have someone else do the experiment for me. I however do not think i can hold out on starting mine before yours finishes. I have done a enough research into LEDs, but im curious of your opinion, it being one that is not biased at all. I was hoping to set up a closet with less than six plants most likely four, i believe my area is like 3x6. i will running a screen above the babbies, since i have experience with scrog. what lights would you recommend if i wanted to spend about half of what you should have (~1000) on lights. The 120 watt tri-band Led grow light goes for round $250 (got that from your previous links). In addition to one or two of the tri-bands, what else would you recommend.
> 
> Thanks again, and i look forward to following the rest of your grow.


Pick your lights based on the area you will be using to flower. If you plan on using the full 6' of length in your closet then it will take several LED fixtures to cover the area. If you are only going to use 1/2 (3x3) you will need at least 2 of the 126w models, or a better choice would be a larger fixture 300w +. Best prices are generally at ebay but beware, many of the items they sell are junk. For flowering be sure all the diodes are at least 1w, if the fixture has more bulbs than watts then skip it. (They do work for veg/mother plants) Also make sure of the light bandwidth especially the red. Many inexpensive fixture use the 630nm bulb which is okay but the 660nm wave length is much more productive. A good quad band fixture will have both the 630 & 660. They best speced fixture I've found is from http://growitled.com/ (they sell a 6 band) they also have the best prices for larger wattage fixtures. I'm using their 350w model and it seems to be kicking ass. I want to get another one to pump even more watts on the girls but I haven't been able to convince the wife on spending another $800


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## Retris (Aug 18, 2010)

But yea, Definitely think the light is high enough now for sure. 

Are you doin 20/4 hrs of lighting still?


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## Serapis (Aug 18, 2010)

Retris said:


> But yea, Definitely think the light is high enough now for sure.
> 
> Are you doin 20/4 hrs of lighting still?


No. I am at 24 hours. Today I propped the plant up by 8" and kept a close eye on it. It did fine for a couple of hours, and then I noticed barely, that the small serrated leaf edges were starting to turn up. I placed the plant back on the shelf and within an hours, the tips were normal again. That tells me these LED lights kick ass. It's going to take me a little bit to get used to them. I figure this girl will be ready for 12" height in a few days.

*MY FISH TANK:*
They say you can grow anything in good water. It's true. My water reservoir was cloudy today with bits of algae it looked like. I cleaned the air stone a few days ago and it was slimy, so I've been keeping an eye on the water closely. It was time for an aquarium filter.... I went to Wally World and got a 10-30 gallon large whisper quiet filter. All I need now is fish.... I just might add some gold fish. At this point I have a 12 gallon fish tank in a doubled up tote for my water supply. I'm using aquarium PH tablets to buffer and hold PH at 7, a nice 16" air stone and a pump/filter system that removes metals, chemicals, etc. I'm just missing fish...


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> No. I am at 24 hours. Today I propped the plant up by 8" and kept a close eye on it. It did fine for a couple of hours, and then I noticed barely, that the small serrated leaf edges were starting to turn up. I placed the plant back on the shelf and within an hours, the tips were normal again. That tells me these LED lights kick ass. It's going to take me a little bit to get used to them. I figure this girl will be ready for 12" height in a few days.
> 
> *MY FISH TANK:*
> They say you can grow anything in good water. It's true. My water reservoir was cloudy today with bits of algae it looked like. I cleaned the air stone a few days ago and it was slimy, so I've been keeping an eye on the water closely. It was time for an aquarium filter.... I went to Wally World and got a 10-30 gallon large whisper quiet filter. All I need now is fish.... I just might add some gold fish. At this point I have a 12 gallon fish tank in a doubled up tote for my water supply. I'm using aquarium PH tablets to buffer and hold PH at 7, a nice 16" air stone and a pump/filter system that removes metals, chemicals, etc. I'm just missing fish...


Careful with goldfish, they have high amonia in their waste, not likely to be good for your plants


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## Retris (Aug 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> No. I am at 24 hours. Today I propped the plant up by 8" and kept a close eye on it. It did fine for a couple of hours, and then I noticed barely, that the small serrated leaf edges were starting to turn up. I placed the plant back on the shelf and within an hours, the tips were normal again. That tells me these LED lights kick ass. It's going to take me a little bit to get used to them. I figure this girl will be ready for 12" height in a few days..


 In that case then damn those are some kick ass LED's! haha Were the back ones on it the whole time too or just the top?


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## Serapis (Aug 19, 2010)

Retris said:


> In that case then damn those are some kick ass LED's! haha Were the back ones on it the whole time too or just the top?


Just the top....


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## Serapis (Aug 19, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Careful with goldfish, they have high amonia in their waste, not likely to be good for your plants


Fish emit nitrates, which is good for plants. This accomplished by the nitrogen cycle, which turns fish waste into plant food. The trick is to get the plant:fish ratio correct. Also, the fish will eventually get big. In the first 6 weeks, you have to constantly monitor water for nitrate levels and do partial water changes as necessary. Eventually the system will dial itself in and all waste will become nitrogen. Several problems exist with this idea and I hope to iron them out. I think it would be awesome to have fish inside. This is just an idea at this stage, not a plan.


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 19, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I decided to be 100% safe, side panels are OFF


Good call, dude; I had a feelin' you'd be seein' it my way. 



luckyskindaguy said:


> I smoke from time to time, maybe 1-2 times a month. My girl smokes daily and a few times a day on the weekend days. Here is a pic of the couch
> View attachment 1104423Might just be the best $50 EVER! That's a 53# Boxer and she only takes up one cushion


Awww, it's a moop! Sweet dog and couch combo; you pick 'em up in the same place?  Just kiddin'! 



Serapis said:


> Looking at my pics above, does everyone think that the LED is high enough this time?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure you'll be all right here on out. Just drop it down closer in graduated increments over time, and keep an eye on 'em. But don't get closer than a foot until you flower; I've found some really reliable LED studies, grows, and side-by-side comparisons which demonstrate conclusively that they emit more than enough light for even huge plants, and their foliar penetration is actually slightly better than HIDs. In fact, you'll prob'ly wanna keep 'em at least a foot above the whole time; their lightprint is improved, and their intensity diminshes much less than an HID at this range. More on this below.



Serapis said:


> Retris said:
> 
> 
> > In that case then damn those are some kick ass LED's! haha Were the back ones on it the whole time too or just the top?
> ...


Yes, indeed, they _do_ kick ass!

Now, I'm sure you're all dying to see these studies and grows! Just take a look here:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=160147

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=184542 

I do apologize for linking to another forum, but please understand that I do it for educational purposes only and not to undermine RIU. Anyhow, in the first thread, the user hazy uses a 205 watt LED lamp by Hydro Grow LED (HGL), who claims that it will match the intensity of his 400 watt HPS. The owner of HGL, herein known as LEDGirl, supplied him with the lamp for free for the purposes of this test. She compares the PAR values of her lamps with a 600 watt MH and a Lumigrow LED lamp composed of five watt diodes in this thread:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=173290

Her 345 watter had approximately 41.1% more PAR than the 600 watt MH, and a whopping 69.8% more than the Lumigrow, at the same distance. Thus confirming what you were saying about one watt diodes being more efficient than five or six watt diodes, Serapis. This huge gap is due in large part to the use of one watt diodes with a spectral angle of sixty degrees instead of the common hundred and twenty degree angle used by most cheap competitors, giving them much greater foliar penetration, yet reducing the lightprint. However, not only are the one watt diodes more efficient, but they spread out the light with greater numbers in good spacial ratios; helping to minimize the impact of the reduced lightprint.

Now coming back to hazy's comparative study:

In the first comparative study, which attempted to match the light intensity of the lamps used for a comparison of quantity and quality, hazy grew two clones from three different mothers of different strains; Sugar Shack, Sour Diesel, and Chem4, one of each per lamp. In the end, the HID outyielded the LED as follows:

*Sugar Shack:*
LED: 29.1g; 85% of HID; 15% less
HID: 34.2g; 118% of LED; 18% more

*Sour Diesel:*
LED: 59.9g; 85% of HID; 15% less
HID: 70.4g; 118% of LED; 18% more

*Chem4:*
LED: 27.3g; 65% of HID; 35% less
HID: 41.9g; 154% of LED; 54% more

*Total Yield:*
LED: 116.3g; 79.5% of HID; 20.5% less
HID: 146.5g; 126% of LED; 26% more

*Average Yield:*
LED: 38.8g; 78% of HID; 22% less
HID: 48.8g; 126% of LED; 26% more

I must note that this was hazy's first LED attempt, and these are very comparable results for a first timer. No doubt his yields will improve with more practice with new technology. I carefully looked at the well documented pictures and compared each plant during all stages of development, and I must say; LEDs look quite promising, and all of my doubts have been dispelled. He grew out some rather large plants, proving that you _can_ grow large plants and yield big buds with LEDs, you just have to have the right ones and enough wattage. It's clear that the intensity of light packs on the growth, reducing node spacing, creating more budsites during vegetative growth, and packing on stockier, fuller buds. And in my own opinion, the LED buds got noticeably frostier; awesome trichome development, and without UV supplementation. The HID buds did get longer and larger, but hazy noted that they were much airier and considerably less dense. And in hazy's opinion, the LED buds tasted better and were noticeably more potent. Two out of three taste testers of this crop agreed that the LED bud was superior in certain traits in a blind study, though they each admitted that they were very similar, and chose their favorites based upon preferred minor character traits.

In the second thread, hazy puts the 205 watter together with another 345 watter gifted to him again by LEDGirl for the purposes of comparing it with the 400 watt HPS watt for watt in drawn power. The LEDs drew 455 watts together, and the HID drew 484 watts. Not the same, but close enough to compare watt for watt. And even though the draw was less, the total rating (550 watts) of both LED lamps is greater than the rating of the HPS, so give'n'take; more or less. Hazy didn't list the individual strain weights for this study, but the totals were as follows:

LED: 406.9g; 198.9% of HID; 98.9% more

HID: 204.6g; 50.3% of LED; 49.7% less

That's almost double the yield of HIDs watt for watt! All this to say that while you're uncertain of the spectral angle of your LEDs, Serapis, since the specs. of HTG's lamps are very similar to HGL's, and they're clearly very intense as you've demonstrated, I think you can have a greater modest estimate of what to expect; hope this is a relief in many ways and ups your confidence some, as well as the confidence of other LED growers and those who are looking into it. I'm sure this will be very interesting to many interested parties who're currently watching this journal. And to close with more corroborating evidence, here's a collection of photos from various comparative and non-comparative LED grows on ICMag compiled by LEDGirl:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=169532

Enjoy,
The Cannabist Communist


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## Serapis (Aug 19, 2010)

Wow, that is one informative fucking post!! +REP to ya sir. I spent more than a year reading up on LED lighting and what PAR was and angles and I even followed grows. I'm very familiar with the LEDGirl experiments and I believe she sells a very fine product. Have you ever seen her flower room? She must have hundreds of thousands of dollars in LED equipment in there. I didn't need the convincing, as I was convinced when I purchased my first light and was attempting to win a second one at auction. 

Thanks for supplying the thread with actual numbers and case examples.


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## blueberryblitz (Aug 20, 2010)

Yeah amazing post c.c. I'm still on the fence, plus gotta wait till after my wedding and such to spend the money but those numbers look great and I at least have the time then to watch grows such as this one and see how they come out, no pressure! I'm sure they are going to work out wonderfully


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## Serapis (Aug 20, 2010)

blueberryblitz said:


> Yeah amazing post c.c. I'm still on the fence, plus gotta wait till after my wedding and such to spend the money but those numbers look great and I at least have the time then to watch grows such as this one and see how they come out, no pressure! I'm sure they are going to work out wonderfully


I'm not sure why you would still be on the fence after that exhaustive coverage given to LEDs. I hope you are not going to base your entire life's opinion of LEDs, based on my very first grow with them.


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 20, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Wow, that is one informative fucking post!! +REP to ya sir. I spent more than a year reading up on LED lighting and what PAR was and angles and I even followed grows. I'm very familiar with the LEDGirl experiments and I believe she sells a very fine product. Have you ever seen her flower room? She must have hundreds of thousands of dollars in LED equipment in there. I didn't need the convincing, as I was convinced when I purchased my first light and was attempting to win a second one at auction.
> 
> Thanks for supplying the thread with actual numbers and case examples.





blueberryblitz said:


> Yeah amazing post c.c. I'm still on the fence, plus gotta wait till after my wedding and such to spend the money but those numbers look great and I at least have the time then to watch grows such as this one and see how they come out, no pressure! I'm sure they are going to work out wonderfully


 Wow, thanks very much for the homage, guys. Hooray for my very first +rep! It's nice to be appreciated for one's contributions.  I do my best to make helpful contributions, and the effort's fun and it pays off. I'm just so tired of the senseless LED bashing, and I figured some hard facts would be a nice feature to good threads like this to help dispense with some of the general uneasiness going around here. My wife thinks I should be a journalist, because I have immense inquisitive instincts and do a good job of sorting through data, retaining information, and compiling the most compelling facts in a punctual and persuasive manner. I don't mean to toot my own horn, but I composed the whole post minus the hard numbers from memory after giving those threads a good once over, and did the extra calculations to determine the percentages and ratios myself. I really hope to make a lasting and positive contribution to RIU, and I aim to please. 

I'm glad to hear that you don't need any more convincing. I didn't mean to second guess you, Serapis; you just seem rather unsure of yourself at times. At least, that's the vibe I get from your posts. But I did know that you were very certain of yourself and what you're doing, and it certainly shows in your work; it's very thoroughgoing and confident in its execution. I hope my work shows as much as yours does when I'm finally so fortunate as to render myself the opportunity. I'm doing much to study and learn, and I think I've got a pretty good plan in place thus far. I'm pretty certain I'm going to go with HTG; I haven't seen any completed grows with their equipment yet, but they're the most economically priced LEDs with very similar specs. to the HGL Penetrators, and I've seen great results with those, results which demonstrate that my plan is very compatible with LEDs.

No, I actually did not find any of LEDGirl's grows, but I bet they're spectacular and display proficiency. I'm very happy to know that there are people like that around to give LEDs a good name and reputation. I'd get some of her LEDs, but they're so very expensive. Sadly you still have to pay handsomely to get top shelf LEDs. But I'm sure HTG will satisfy my needs. After all, I'm really not aiming for pounds and pounds; just some modest yields of dense and potent top colas with a closet SoG. I was pretty well convinced of LEDs when I read lots of testimonies claiming equal to increased yields over HIDs, but when I couldn't find detailed studies and pictures of the big buds, my convictions were a bit shaken. Now that I've found better work, I'm very pleased and fully convinced. I can't wait to see what HTG's lamps can do in your hands, Serapis. Good luck to all of you!

Cannabinoidally yours,
The Cannabist Communist


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## Serapis (Aug 20, 2010)

If I seem unsure of anything, it is myself mostly. I'm sure the lights will do the trick.

thanks again for contributing in the thread.


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## Serapis (Aug 20, 2010)

*UPDATE:*

*PROGRESS*

I'm happy to announce that we are now in the VEG stage!! 

The plant in the white square container is named Runt. She was the smallest until an unfortunate meeting with my new lights. I made the mistake of placing them about a foot from my 10 day old plants and nearly lost them all. Runt survived because she germed way late and was still in the flouro nursery.

*Seeds:*

Of the 5 moldy peat pellets, one seedling is doing well. One didn't have the strength to lift starter leaves from soil and one germed with NO starter leaves, just a stem. Today, I opened the two dormant pellets and recovered the seeds intact. At 6 bucks a seed and so many failures, I wasn't giving up on them.

I soaked both in distilled water with a drop of SuperThrive in their own cups. When they sank to the bottom, I poured seed and water into a cup full of organic starter. We'll see what happens. I am done using peat pellets. It seems so simple, yet for some reason too many problems occur.

I hope to have 3 seedlings going shortly. My plan is to start flowering the others in about 3 weeks while the seedlings veg under flouros. Once the flowering plants are half way through flower, I'll be introducing the new plants after clones have been taken.


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## Smrt (Aug 20, 2010)

Fish Tank ??? Geuss what ? First time I EVER fre hydroponics was a DWC on my balcony, 2 buckets, 1 with cherry tomatoes and the other with strawberries. What blew me away was that people raved about the insane flavours. My fish tank water was at 1500 ppm cuz of the Oscars someone gave me, so I diluted it to whatever I needed. Fishtank water is awesome food !!! I wish I knew more about it. It's called Aquaponics and it's nothing new. I say go for it if you have an interest, you may surprize the shit out of yourself !


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 20, 2010)

Serapis said:


> If I seem unsure of anything, it is myself mostly. I'm sure the lights will do the trick.
> 
> thanks again for contributing in the thread.


No problem, man; I'm more 'an happy to contribute and keep it alive and interesting in some small way. Just keep it comin'. 



Serapis said:


> *UPDATE:*
> 
> *PROGRESS*
> 
> ...


All right, man!  You still doin' 24/0? How's that workin' out for ya? Runt's lookin' real healthy. The other two are laggin' behind a bit, but I'm sure they'll come around. Are the ones in the cups the only ones that survived getting vaporized by the LEDs? I sure hope things are more fortunate in the future.

That really sucks about those peat pellets, but I dunno why you'd bother with 'em in the first place; paper towels work just fine, if not better.. Were they free with your order..? Hope you can recoop some of the seeds which were wasted on the pellets, though.

So what exactly is the plan with these babies? Are you gonna select a mother from the strongest and healthiest straight away, or are you gonna flower some cuttings and choose the best phenos? Also, I don't exactly see another chamber for veg; you've talked about keeping mothers, but I don't see where you can keep them. Got another room prepped that you haven't told us about?

I just remembered, you neglected to answer a previous question of mine; did you germinate batches of the same strain, or a mix? I don't see labels, so I'm assuming the former? And which strains do you have germed so far?


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## Serapis (Aug 20, 2010)

If you go back to the very beginning of this thread, I show shots of both chambers. The lower area was sealed off with Panda poly and insulation board. It has an active air intake, a passive exhaust (upper chamber has active, bigger exhaust fan) and is powered by 4 4' 40w 65k cool white plus bulbs. I use it for seedlings and early veging. It'll easily support a mother. The light hoods are on yo-yo lifters.

You might wanna go back and catch the whole story CC. I also turned a large tote into a reservoir for my hand watering, because my tap water is soooo hard. The reservoir has an air pump with air stones and a water pump with a double filter. The bottom has washed pea gravel to capture up any large debris. Keeping the water clear with H2O2, fish tabs and distilled vinegar when necessary. 

Everything to date has been Nirvana Bubbleicious. I have my fingers crossed that one of these has the pink bud and bubble gum taste that is sought after. That will be my first mother.

I contacted Nirvana seeds and advised them of the horrible germ rate while using their starter pellets and they have advised they will resend some seeds. Happy days! I don't like the paper towel method because I ran into mold while using it years ago. I'm going to go with cups of water and superthrive. When the seed sinks, I pour it and water into organic starting mix and let mother nature go from there, as intended. Seeds are meant to sow, not layer between paper towels in your cupboard and I'm done trusting peat pellets.


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## Polecat (Aug 20, 2010)

didn't go through the hole thread. But your room looks great. Will check out the last 10 page and get back with you.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 20, 2010)

Hydro Grow LED is the main place I have been looking to get another fixture from but don't have that kind of money right now. She is the only one I have seen to truly state 60 degree angle LED's. I rarely ever found a grow that finished using her light. Cammie tended to start name calling and got on her high horse about her LED's and that turned a lot of people off. She then dropped out of a forum and went to another one.

Glad to see Runt is kickin ass! You got your cloning methods down already Serapis?


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## casper23 (Aug 20, 2010)

just read through your grow mate and i love your setup you got going there. I am def tuned into this one! I was on the fence about growing under LEDs compared to a 250 watt MH. Now seeing your grow i am going to go with something like this, http://www.thelashop.com/product.php?productid=393&cat=47&page=2 . Do you think this would be good for 5 plants?


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 20, 2010)

Serapis said:


> If you go back to the very beginning of this thread, I show shots of both chambers. The lower area was sealed off with Panda poly and insulation board. It has an active air intake, a passive exhaust (upper chamber has active, bigger exhaust fan) and is powered by 4 4' 40w 65k cool white plus bulbs. I use it for seedlings and early veging. It'll easily support a mother. The light hoods are on yo-yo lifters.
> 
> You might wanna go back and catch the whole story CC. I also turned a large tote into a reservoir for my hand watering, because my tap water is soooo hard. The reservoir has an air pump with air stones and a water pump with a double filter. The bottom has washed pea gravel to capture up any large debris. Keeping the water clear with H2O2, fish tabs and distilled vinegar when necessary.


Oh, yes, of course! I remember now. I read every page of this journal, and I've been fully aware of it, it's just that it looked so small in the photos that I didn't even have the foggiest that it could keep a mother. Yeah, you should be fine; mothers are usually kept real short, anyhow. But you may end up composting more cuttings than you keep if they're tenacious growers.




Serapis said:


> Everything to date has been Nirvana Bubbleicious. I have my fingers crossed that one of these has the pink bud and bubble gum taste that is sought after. That will be my first mother.





Serapis said:


> I contacted Nirvana seeds and advised them of the horrible germ rate while using their starter pellets and they have advised they will resend some seeds. Happy days! I don't like the paper towel method because I ran into mold while using it years ago. I'm going to go with cups of water and superthrive. When the seed sinks, I pour it and water into organic starting mix and let mother nature go from there, as intended. Seeds are meant to sow, not layer between paper towels in your cupboard and I'm done trusting peat pellets.


Ah, I see. Didn't you say you have two strains to work with? What's the other? Very cool about the replacement ship. Dang, well, paper towels obviously aren't such a bonafide method, but I think it one ups those peat pellets. I haven't really heard of many complications with paper towels, although I've only germed with 'em once, but I had a hundred percent success rate with bagseed once! That counts for something I suppose. But I'm sure there are much better germ methods; hope to find one someday soon.



luckyskindaguy said:


> Hydro Grow LED is the main place I have been looking to get another fixture from but don't have that kind of money right now. She is the only one I have seen to truly state 60 degree angle LED's. I rarely ever found a grow that finished using her light. Cammie tended to start name calling and got on her high horse about her LED's and that turned a lot of people off. She then dropped out of a forum and went to another one.
> 
> Glad to see Runt is kickin ass! You got your cloning methods down already Serapis?


LEDGirl's name is Cammie is it? Wow, I didn't know about that. But I can't say I'm hardly surprised; that's capitalists for ya. Yeah, even HTG just uses "wide angle" LEDs. I'm sure they increase lightprint without diminishing intensity in a way which is satisfactory enough to sacrifice for the sake of profit. But we'll see just how well they can do. I'm sure they'll do well enough. But I guess it all depends on what you're doing, too. If you're SoGin' or SCRoGin', I'm sure the increased lightprint of wide angle LEDs would benefit from adding square feet, although the buds might not be made as dense as you'd get from something like HGL. Oh well.

Yes, indeed, Runt's kickin' ass, and that's what matters right now!


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## Canibitual (Aug 20, 2010)

Hi, I read through all the posts (that took quite awhile) the first couple pages with the big mouth bickering back and forth were pretty entertaining... 

anyways... I'm tryiing to find out your thoughts on the 300w lights from htg... are they any good? also, would they be sufficent for a 4x4 ebb and flow setup during flowering or would I need to provide some floro side light? and how high should I keep them off the tops (would say 16" be a decent hight to cover a 4x4 area?

I've used the 90w panel off ebay but wasn't impressed with the area coverage on a 2x2.5 tote (misting system), I had too many ph issues with serveral totes to blame it on the light... but it did produce some bud before the heat wave killed all my plants...so I already know they will survive on LED... but my 125w MH seemed to do better...(except for the heat)


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## Serapis (Aug 20, 2010)

casper23 said:


> just read through your grow mate and i love your setup you got going there. I am def tuned into this one! I was on the fence about growing under LEDs compared to a 250 watt MH. Now seeing your grow i am going to go with something like this, http://www.thelashop.com/product.php?productid=393&cat=47&page=2 . Do you think this would be good for 5 plants?


I think those would work, but check recommended lightprint coverage, it's like 2.5' x 2.5' at optimal height. Sounds like it would cover 4 one gallons comfortably per overhead.


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## casper23 (Aug 21, 2010)

word, thanks for the input mate. 

i look forward to your updates on your grow.


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## Serapis (Aug 23, 2010)

*UPDATE*

I've transplanted all the plants that were damaged by exposure to the LED lights too soon. They are still dwarfed a bit on top, but the roots were stretched to the bottom and circling the cup. I hope the new room gives em the push they needed to start growing. 

All plants are on water and FF Big Bloom at 1/2 strength. The soil is Miracle Grow Organic choice amended with worm castings and perlite. I am adding 4 drops of Super Thrive per gallon of water to give the plants hormones and B vitamins to shake off the shock of being transplanted.

The larger of the plants, Runt, has been fimmed. I'll update with some close up pics when the results of that become evident in 2-3 days. It should be interesting to see how many tops result. I have never fimmed before, usually only topped. With only 4 plants at this veg stage, I want to try and increase yield. This is the batch to get me from Halloween to Thanksgiving. I'll start the Xmas seeds shortly if a suitable mom hasn't stood out. 

At this point, it looks like runt is it. I also have two more seeds that have not yet germed. They were soaked in distilled water and then placed in an organic peat starter mix. I've yet to see anything going on with those. Today I placed them in an 88 degree closet. We'll see. So far it is a germ rate of only 20%. Remember, these were the seeds that were originally in peat pellets that developed the white wispy mold, pics a page or two back.

Here are the pictures:

I aplogize, the manage attachments applet is not allowing me to select files for upload. Perhaps I have reached my non-premium acct limit? I'll try again in a bit...



The "Select Files" button is not working....

it is with Firefox, not chrome...


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## Hip Hop Grower (Aug 23, 2010)

if I was you I would protect that extension cord bar, moisture could make it catch fire when you are not at home, I read through your thread, did you spend almost a thousand dollars on that setup?


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## 420n00b (Aug 23, 2010)

Sub'd - killer room, very anxious to see how it turns out with LEDs.

One question though and forgive me as I'm *VERY* new to growing and especially LEDs...

From the pics you've posted the LEDs look to be a mix of red and blue (I know blue=veg and red=flowering). Does the mix of colors promote better growing as opposed to a straight blue during veg and straight red during flowering? For now I'm using CFLs to grow as it's the most cost effective way for me to do it and I'm in veg using 65K bulbs and will switch to 27K bulbs for flowering. Is it that it's just too expensive to buy separate LED panels for the different colors?

Great thread and can't wait to see the results


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## tobikan.judan (Aug 23, 2010)

I'm subscribed, excited to see the end results. thanks for all the info, I'm starting my first LED set up in a few days, keeping close attention to your thread


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## Serapis (Aug 23, 2010)

Hip Hop Grower said:


> if I was you I would protect that extension cord bar, moisture could make it catch fire when you are not at home, I read through your thread, did you spend almost a thousand dollars on that setup?


How much moisture are you expecting me to have in my flower room? LOL... I have them off the shelf in case of spills, the air humidity will not be high enough to cause a short in my outlets but thanks for the concern. The price of the set up has been discussed a few times in the thread, feel free to read up on it as I'm tired of answering that same question only to hear how cheap HID lamps are. I'm tired of discussing power consumption to HID fans.



420n00b said:


> Sub'd - killer room, very anxious to see how it turns out with LEDs.
> 
> One question though and forgive me as I'm *VERY* new to growing and especially LEDs...
> 
> ...


Plants benefit from both spectrums during both phases of growth, however with HID lamps, it's practical to use one or the other. Some use both. My LEDs also include a white spectrum, they are tri-bands. The panels on the wall are simply 2 bands.

Thanks for the good wishes!!


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 23, 2010)

From what I recall, there is over $900 in just the LED's. 

Hey Serapis, do you know the traits you are looking for in deciding on a mother yet or are you just gonna see what you get and go from there?

For me, the squatty bushy plant was ideal. Just so happened that she has tons of frost and packs a punch!

Do you plan on doing any curing this first batch? If so, what method are you gonna use? I just tried my first cure and my gf says it is twice the hit as it was prior to curing. Food for thought, I know you have commented about curing in other threads, but also know you are in transition after being left hangin by your dealer so didn't know if you have the time to wait on the first crop


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## 420n00b (Aug 23, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Plants benefit from both spectrums during both phases of growth, however with HID lamps, it's practical to use one or the other. Some use both. My LEDs also include a white spectrum, they are tri-bands. The panels on the wall are simply 2 bands.
> 
> Thanks for the good wishes!!


Your welcome and thanks for the info. Really need to do more homework before committing to a singular lighting source though LEDs look to be the best route for what I'm trying to do.


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## Serapis (Aug 23, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> From what I recall, there is over $900 in just the LED's.
> 
> Hey Serapis, do you know the traits you are looking for in deciding on a mother yet or are you just gonna see what you get and go from there?
> 
> ...


I will be curing, HOWEVER, at least a dry OZ will get smoked w/o time for curing. I have a friend that suffers migraines that I'm helping as well. Our tolerance levels are so low now, an OZ should last us a few weeks if we only burn in the evenings. He can't burn during the day. It is the following grow that will set me up for Xmas and beyond, as i'll be scrogging.

As for the cure, I'm just gonna do what everyone else does. After the initial drying, I'll place the bud in glass jars and burp them a couple of times a day while monitoring for signs of bud rot or any molds. I may go with the paper bag method for a few days to make sure I'm not starting off with bud that is too moist. If I over dry, I can moisten it back up and start to slow cure. I plan to do some vanilla. I have the extract for the final flush and I'll get a few Vanilla beans from Winn Dixie to toss into the jar. I'm going to do a cinnamon as well. I think both essences will go well with bubble gum. Of course I'm leaving some natural too. I believe that curing refines the smoke and makes it smoother and increases the potency.

As for the Mom, I'm really liking Runt's traits so far. The node spacing is beautiful, she has a nice overall color and is very healthy. I'm still going to flower her however, but I'll get cuttings before I do and see how she is at cloning. Since these are seeds, it will be interesting to see the different traits. I really want some bud that has pinkish colors and smells like bubble gum with a heady high. If it turns out to be a couch lock, I'll be doing some breeding later. I found a place in Canada that mails fresh cut clones and male pollen. 

Thanks for the questions.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 23, 2010)

Do you have a tried and true cloning method yet?


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## Serapis (Aug 23, 2010)

420n00b said:


> Your welcome and thanks for the info. Really need to do more homework before committing to a singular lighting source though LEDs look to be the best route for what I'm trying to do.


Avoid the 3w and 5w diodes. They may sound better, however the 1w 10mm diode found in HTG lights is far superior and efficient. It hits on all spectrums needed by the plant. Good LED lighting is an investment into your business or hobby. These lights have a rating of over 100,000 hours, thats more than 10 years. By then, who knows, maybe the LED technology will have far outpaced HIDs and you'll want to buy newer ones. china has already discovered newer technologies but they are cost prohibitive right now, allowing only governments to be able to afford and experiment with them.

Watt for Watt, LEDs of today win, hands down. I'm not comparing my 320 watts of LEDs with a 1000 watt mh bulb. I'm simply stating that when you compare wattage used, LEDs produce more per actual watt. An HID bulb produces a wide spectrum of light. The plant can only use about 15% of that light, leaving 85% of the energy used to produce the light as wasted. A good LED set up will produce only light that the plant can use, wasting nothing in power consumption. The days of blinding lights and reflector hoods is coming to an end. I truly believe that, especially as society seeks green alternatives to old ways, such as ditching the incandescent light bulb.


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## Serapis (Aug 23, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Do you have a tried and true cloning method yet?


I'll be using rock wool cubes from Grodan at 1.5" x 1.5" and a propagation dome with adjustable vents. The rock wool cubes got here Friday, but the plant ain't ready yet. Since I'll be scrogging, I don't need a lot of clones. My goal is 5 healthy plants per grow. That should easily fill a 2' x 4.5' net with beautiful buds. It may actually be a couple of plants too many, we'll have to try and see. Whatever works and keeps me going with no down time waiting on plants to veg.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 23, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I'll be using rock wool cubes from Grodan at 1.5" x 1.5" and a propagation dome with adjustable vents. The rock wool cubes got here Friday, but the plant ain't ready yet. Since I'll be scrogging, I don't need a lot of clones. My goal is 5 healthy plants per grow. That should easily fill a 2' x 4.5' net with beautiful buds. It may actually be a couple of plants too many, we'll have to try and see. Whatever works and keeps me going with no down time waiting on plants to veg.


You gonna use any cloning gel? After struggling early, in my growing, to get my clones to take I found a sweet and EASY method that has worked 100% since I started using it. I will share, but only if you would like. Don't want to post unsolicited advice


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## Serapis (Aug 23, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> You gonna use any cloning gel? After struggling early, in my growing, to get my clones to take I found a sweet and EASY method that has worked 100% since I started using it. I will share, but only if you would like. Don't want to post unsolicited advice


Of course I am lol... I didn't describe the entire process, but I can with pics when I take some cuttings. I have a bottle of cloneX.

Feel free to share your clone method. Post away...


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## woodsmaneh! (Aug 23, 2010)

I use jiffy 7's, soak in hp 6 with some rooting gel mixed in with Liquid Karma. I place on heating mat for 1 to 2 hours than start. Get my scissors, I can hear the howling start. I use the small Fiskers they cost 11 to 15$, I get an alcohol pad, get then at the drug store, clean the blades and start cutting, stick in gel don't need to much and push to bottom of medium. I have done this with rock wool, and oasis cubes and cups with dirt and I have a 99.9% success rate. I put 31 pucks in a tray and when done cover with dome, put on mat 9 to 12 days later ready to transplant. Water as needed, about every 3 to 4 days I put enough water to almost cover the ridges in the bottom for the tray. Have the holes open to max on top of domes and small fan blowing across the tops of the domes.

I was taught to use a razor blade or scalpel and do it under water or might get an air embolism, bla bla bla Now it takes me 45 min to do 31 great clones. I don't disinfect the room, some times I wash my hands, the alcohol pad does clean me up a bit.

*O ya I also give every clone a hair cut, kind of like a flat top, I cut the tips off, as that's where mold starts 90% of the time.*

Peace


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## Serapis (Aug 23, 2010)

woodsmaneh! said:


> I use jiffy 7's, soak in hp 6 with some rooting gel mixed in with Liquid Karma. I place on heating mat for 1 to 2 hours than start. Get my scissors, I can hear the howling start. I use the small Fiskers they cost 11 to 15$, I get an alcohol pad, get then at the drug store, clean the blades and start cutting, stick in gel don't need to much and push to bottom of medium. I have done this with rock wool, and oasis cubes and cups with dirt and I have a 99.9% success rate. I put 31 pucks in a tray and when done cover with dome, put on mat 9 to 12 days later ready to transplant. Water as needed, about every 3 to 4 days I put enough water to almost cover the ridges in the bottom for the tray. Have the holes open to max on top of domes and small fan blowing across the tops of the domes.
> 
> I was taught to use a razor blade or scalpel and do it under water or might get an air embolism, bla bla bla Now it takes me 45 min to do 31 great clones. I don't disinfect the room, some times I wash my hands, the alcohol pad does clean me up a bit.
> 
> ...


Awesome tips. I have the exact same scissors, sharp as hell and highly recommended for trimming bud. They take great clean cuttings too. +rep for the mention of my fave scissors!


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 23, 2010)

I saw this method on a thread a few months back and made a few mods, but here goes the basics. Take the cotton off of the ends of a few cotton swabs. stretch it out to make a thin layer of cotton about the size of a nickel/quarter. make as many of these as you plan to have cuttings. Before each cutting, dip one of the peices of cotton in some cloning gel and turn until covering the cotton, then flatten the cotton out again. Take about a 3-4" cutting from the plant at a 45 degree angle. This cut can be anywhere, no need to be close to nodes as some other methods state. Wrap the cotton around the bottom of the cutting so that the end is covered and then move up the stem as far as the cotton reaches. Insert into rockwool that has presoaked in 6ph water for 24+ hours. I then put onto a tray and cover with a dome. Under the tray I place a heat pad set to low for 15 mins every hour. Spray the dome as needed to keep the humidity up. I can see roots in 10-14 days without fail.

The basic idea of this is the cotton keeps the cloning gel applied to the stem more effectively. It is very little work, but is well worth it I think. Hope this will be helpful to at least someone!


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 23, 2010)

Forgot to mention that I cut the fan leaves in half also!


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

I've successfully done several LED grows. They are great because they don't use much energy; they don't have much of a heat signature and they are awesome for vegging but you're going to be very disappointed when it comes to flowering. You'll be lucky to get 1/4 oz from your grow.


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> I've successfully done several LED grows. They are great because they don't use much energy; they don't have much of a heat signature and they are awesome for vegging but you're going to be very disappointed when it comes to flowering. You'll be lucky to get 1/4 oz from your grow.


Are you up for a bet?


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

Make it easy on yourself.


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Make it easy on yourself.


Sub it and we'll see. I'll post pics and dry weight scale shots... I only have 5 plants and I'm not scrogging these, because they are fem seeds and I don't fully trust them. This grow is to pick out good traits and cloning. I think I'll easily do a couple of ounces, easy...


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

I'm subbed. I'm expecting to get right at 10 pounds from my current grow.


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> I'm subbed. I'm expecting to get right at 10 pounds from my current grow.


I wish I had the room. I'd have to kick out my roommates if i were to attempt anything that size. I'm doing my grow stealth wize in a home I own, with two roommates living here. Both are cool, but they have no idea.


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

You're doing it the right way then. "no idea" is good. Best wishes to you.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> I've successfully done several LED grows. They are great because they don't use much energy; they don't have much of a heat signature and they are awesome for vegging but you're going to be very disappointed when it comes to flowering. You'll be lucky to get 1/4 oz from your grow.


Obviously you have not researched this very much. I grew more that a 1/4 oz with just two small plants on my first try with all LED's. Each plant was under 2 feet tall and I burned the shit out of them with nutes and ph.


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> I'm subbed. I'm expecting to get right at 10 pounds from my current grow.


How many lights and what wattages? How many plants and how tall are they?

I have seen grows with LED that grew several pounds, but they were using whole bedrooms or part of a garage to grow. Do enlighten us instead of just bashing (one of the OP's pet peaves)


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

Obviously I* have* done my research since I've done 4 grows with LEDs. It's one thing to start out with 5 or 6 plants; it's another for them to survive til the chop. I have two sets of LED's (and these are not my first either) along with 2 T-5's (4 bulbs each, 4'), all in storage. If you want to flower with LED's, knock yourself out; I'll stick with my 1000w HID for that and I will get *pounds* of pot. I've got a grow journal - I even have some shots of my LED's in use there - that shows my current grow.


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Obviously I* have* done my research since I've done 4 grows with LEDs. It's one thing to start out with 5 or 6 plants; it's another for them to survive til the chop. I have two sets of LED's (and these are not my first either) along with 2 T-5's (4 bulbs each, 4'), all in storage. If you want to flower with LED's, knock yourself out; I'll stick with my 1000w HID for that and I will get *pounds* of pot. I've got a grow journal - I even have some shots of my LED's in use there - that shows my current grow.


We are all proud of you. Please find another thread to brag in, you are in the wrong one. As i stated in the beginning, this is not going to be an argument about HID vs LED. You can take that shit elsewhere.


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

Sorry, I was under the impression this was a public forum. Once again, you are putting words in my mouth. I patted you on the back, and gave you my best wishes. Then one of your friends took exception to one of my statements and accused me of not doing my research. This is not about LED vs HID; I was just trying to give you the heads up about expecting a big harvest. Truthfully, I hope you get 20 lbs but I'm just saying, from my experience, and what I've read on here, LED's will disappoint you in the flowering phase.


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

We all appreciate your unbiased opinion floyd, Thanks for sharing it with us again and again.

While this is a public forum, I'm politely asking you from refraining from making remarks that are derogatory about LED lighting. I'm doing a simple grow with 100% LED and sharing the results so that other's that can't afford or are thinking about LEDs can make up their own mind, without you influencing them before we even get into the flowering phase.

You do not need to reply to this. I'm simply making a humble request of you. Please keep your LED opinions to yourself or start your own derogatory thread. I have no expectations from this grow and I don't want you to feed any either.

Thanks again for sharing with us your unlimited wisdom. It is greatly appreciated, just not wanted here.


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## 420n00b (Aug 24, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Avoid the 3w and 5w diodes. They may sound better, however the 1w 10mm diode found in HTG lights is far superior and efficient. It hits on all spectrums needed by the plant. Good LED lighting is an investment into your business or hobby. These lights have a rating of over 100,000 hours, thats more than 10 years. By then, who knows, maybe the LED technology will have far outpaced HIDs and you'll want to buy newer ones. china has already discovered newer technologies but they are cost prohibitive right now, allowing only governments to be able to afford and experiment with them.
> 
> Watt for Watt, LEDs of today win, hands down. I'm not comparing my 320 watts of LEDs with a 1000 watt mh bulb. I'm simply stating that when you compare wattage used, LEDs produce more per actual watt. An HID bulb produces a wide spectrum of light. The plant can only use about 15% of that light, leaving 85% of the energy used to produce the light as wasted. A good LED set up will produce only light that the plant can use, wasting nothing in power consumption. The days of blinding lights and reflector hoods is coming to an end. I truly believe that, especially as society seeks green alternatives to old ways, such as ditching the incandescent light bulb.


So far thats exactly what I've been able to find concerning the 1w diodes as opposed to the 3w & 5w. 

Need to start watching the HTG ebay store


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

I can't wait to see all that bud; you are the man American Gothic. I only wish I knew as much as you about growing pot. I am humbled to have found your thread. As I have said so many times, LED's are the way to go; there is nothing like them, especially for flowering and getting huge amounts of first class bud, dripping with resin. You are my new mentor.


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## dtRepeat (Aug 24, 2010)

that set up is fucking legit! i hope one day i can get something like that going for myself...


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## potpimp (Aug 24, 2010)

Thanks for the reaming American Gothic! It is such an honor to be constantly flamed by you. I want to thank you from the bottom of my heart for the superior insight you have given me concerning my misguided motives for being here. I have apparently failed in my communications with you to establish the fact that I was not the one that started the name calling; that was you, kind sir. I have done my best to be your friend. I have sincerely praised your grow here. I have extended the hand of friendship. I have asked that we drop the name calling and disengage the pissing contest. It is without a doubt my fault that you have not picked up on this; I am such a terrible communicator. 

I understand your frustration for my posting in my defense; I felt the same frustration when you castigated me, saying things about me that were so cruel and untrue. Surely you must understand my need to redeem myself and defend my good name.

At least it gives me great satisfaction knowing that I was able to bring a little laughter into your life but you again saw threats where there were none. My only concern was a mod seeing your flames directed at me and banning you. I am here for you my friend; my hand is once again outstretched to you.


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## Retris (Aug 24, 2010)

You are giving Pink Floyd a bad name....

Serapis: Did you upload a douche magnet when you started this thread or are they just attracted to you all together?


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## tranquility (Aug 24, 2010)

...more like douche-magnets. idk why people are so fuckin rude.
pot pimp arent you supposed to be out on the corner?


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

it's ok guys, it has been dealt with.

Let's let it go and ignore him and move on with the grow.

thanks for having my back though!


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 24, 2010)

potpimp is just lame. He started this whole deal when he said you'd be lucky to get a 1/4 OZ. Haters just gonna hate, not much you can do.


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

We CAN ignore him and move on? Some of his posts were supposed to have been removed anyways.... Don't even mention the nick again... lol


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 24, 2010)

Serapis said:


> We CAN ignore him and move on? Some of his posts were supposed to have been removed anyways.... Don't even mention the nick again... lol


 Mention who.......?

Damn Serapis, you are a posting fool! IIRC you had fewer than 200 posts when you started this thread, am I right?


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 24, 2010)

Hip Hop Grower said:


> if I was you I would protect that extension cord bar, moisture could make it catch fire when you are not at home, I read through your thread, did you spend almost a thousand dollars on that setup?


If you'll take a look at the photos in the post just prior to yours, you'll see that his humidity's at 39% RH. I think he'll be all right. 



420n00b said:


> Sub'd - killer room, very anxious to see how it turns out with LEDs.
> 
> One question though and forgive me as I'm *VERY* new to growing and especially LEDs...
> 
> ...


Plants largely use two frequencies of red and two frequencies of blue for photosynthesis at all stages of growth. They use a little bit of many other frequencies, primarily in the white spectrum, with the exception of green and orange. For this reason the very best LED lamps will usually use a ratio of five spectrums; two of red, two of blue, and one wide-spectrum white. The reason that red or blue are emphasized over the other in HID bulbs and other grow lights is because one often has to be foregone or preponderated over since it's hard to combine these frequencies whilst intensifying them with a bulb. LEDs, on the other hand, can be combined in specific frequencies and frequency ratios since they're composed of many small one watt diodes, wasting no energy in the form of light spectrums which plants cannot use. I think that the oft-quoted 15% of light which is actually used by the plant is exaggerated by the LED companies a tad bit; I read somewhere that on average the amount of light wasted in frequencies that plants don't use is actually 30%. It certainly doesn't make sense that so much would be wasted since HIDs are quite effective and considered tried-and-true. But that's still thirty percent which LEDs *don't* waste.

Good work thus far, and good luck, Serapis.


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## Serapis (Aug 24, 2010)

*5 MORE SEEDS PLANTED*

I received some new seeds today, bubblicious, and planted 5 in 9 oz Solo cups. I used an organic starter soil, poured about 2 oz of water in each and waited for the water to run through. Once it did, I used a pencil to place a small hole in the center of each, then placed a single seed into each cup and gently covered. Once covered, I sprayed with water to make sure the top was moist.

To wet the starter agent, I mixed 2 quarts of water with 3 drops of Superthrive, 7 drops of Schultz Plant food and half a capfull of H2O2. I'll be spraying top of soil with straight up water from the reservoir twice a day. The starter cups are under the LEDs. I'm not going to baby these for 10 days under Flouros this time. I have the light about 14" above the cups and will gradually lower as plants mature and get ready for transplanting.

i'm doing this because I believe I have a better feel now what I can do under the lights. I'm home all day, preparing for my sophomore semester in college which starts in a week, so I'll be able to keep a close eye on them.

All LEDs are on

BTW, I foliar fed the plants today with straight seltzer water and then poured about 4 oz into each pot. I swear to God that they all look perked and happy as hell right now. Not a single sagging leaf and they were just transplanted Sunday. Their color is inspiring.

It is still hard to tell what fimming did for Runt.... The growth looks funny, but no discernible branching yet. She is working on her 5th node and I'm tempted to just top at this point. The nodes are TIGHT as hell with this strain. I hope to have 10 healthy plants by the weekend.

Have a great night!


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## Retris (Aug 25, 2010)

Runt is lookin RIDICULOUS compared to the other ones. It's like naming the massive guy in the group Tiny.


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## breakneck (Aug 25, 2010)

Lookin good so far bro. Check out my LED grow...


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## GreenNerd420 (Aug 25, 2010)

Unless you have a major grow op, a closet grow isn't going to pop up on any cameras. Plus, your dryer vent probably pushes out more heat than any room you'd consider growing. Think about it...


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## GreenNerd420 (Aug 25, 2010)

This is also hardly a stealth grow. Seems you have vents poking out everywhere.


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## Serapis (Aug 25, 2010)

Retris said:


> Runt is lookin RIDICULOUS compared to the other ones. It's like naming the massive guy in the group Tiny.


LOL, Runt is lookin awesome.... secondary leaves are starting to kick in. I can also start to see results of the fimming. Believe it or not, before the "incident", Runt was the smallest. She took 10 days to germinate. Had the incident not occurred, we'd be lookin pretty and thinking about 12/12 in 2 weeks.


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## Serapis (Aug 25, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> This is also hardly a stealth grow. Seems you have vents poking out everywhere.


I own the home, the only vents are in my master bathroom... I'd hardly call it vents poking out everywhere.

Let me ask you something nerd.... I went and looked at all of your posts and I fail to see a single pic of your grow space or your plants...

You have this huge avatar that takes up large amounts of page space, yet you really have nothing relevant to say. Do you have a need to just chime in on things you know little to nothing about, such as your Miracle Grow thread buddy?

I have an idea for you. Quit telling others what their op is or isn't until you can show what you are capable of. Fair enough? If you don't like it, feel free to leave this thread and find some other chump that will put up with your bull shit.

Have a pleasant day....


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## 420n00b (Aug 25, 2010)

Cannabist Communist said:


> Plants largely use two frequencies of red and two frequencies of blue for photosynthesis at all stages of growth. They use a little bit of many other frequencies, primarily in the white spectrum, with the exception of green and orange. For this reason the very best LED lamps will usually use a ratio of five spectrums; two of red, two of blue, and one wide-spectrum white. The reason that red or blue are emphasized over the other in HID bulbs and other grow lights is because one often has to be foregone or preponderated over since it's hard to combine these frequencies whilst intensifying them with a bulb. LEDs, on the other hand, can be combined in specific frequencies and frequency ratios since they're composed of many small one watt diodes, wasting no energy in the form of light spectrums which plants cannot use. I think that the oft-quoted 15% of light which is actually used by the plant is exaggerated by the LED companies a tad bit; I read somewhere that on average the amount of light wasted in frequencies that plants don't use is actually 30%. It certainly doesn't make sense that so much would be wasted since HIDs are quite effective and considered tried-and-true. But that's still thirty percent which LEDs *don't* waste.


Thanks for that, starting to make more sense the more I learn here and elsewhere. I found these two articles which helped me understand more, not just about spectrums but also lumens and such. They each touch on LED usage but the knowledge of spectrum and lumen coverage is great.

Article 1
Article 2

Hope you don't think I'm trying to hijack the thread Serapis, just trying to learn and share


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## blueberryblitz (Aug 25, 2010)

Haha well put, serapis and a sophomore in college and own your own home, awesome for you man and yeah I'm growing in a small bedroom closet with the sliding doors open half the time since its my own home as well, but believe you mean someday I will convert a larger closet or build one in the basement that emulates a lot of your ideas, I've said it before and I'll way it again, awesome setup and yeah your one intake and one exhaust vent, man those might be a little overboard... I mean two well installed vents that you successfully kept the light from comin out of, doesn't seem super stealthy at all... Hahahaha keep it up man, can't wait to see these new seeds take and start growing like crazy. I have faith in you and the LEDs, rock em out man


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## Serapis (Aug 25, 2010)

blueberryblitz said:


> Haha well put, serapis and a sophomore in college and own your own home, awesome for you man and yeah I'm growing in a small bedroom closet with the sliding doors open half the time since its my own home as well, but believe you mean someday I will convert a larger closet or build one in the basement that emulates a lot of your ideas, I've said it before and I'll way it again, awesome setup and yeah your one intake and one exhaust vent, man those might be a little overboard... I mean two well installed vents that you successfully kept the light from comin out of, doesn't seem super stealthy at all... Hahahaha keep it up man, can't wait to see these new seeds take and start growing like crazy. I have faith in you and the LEDs, rock em out man


Thanks for the kind words Blitz! I have a spare bedroom, 10' x 10' that I may use for some grows, but I'll have to go HID on those as the cost to light that room in LED would be astronomical. I'll slowly replace them with newer LEDs when I have to start paying THAT power bill, lol.

all of my friends here are bitter because we have no dank. The ONLY weed in this city is crap schwag.... if any enterprising person wants to make some serious cash, get some product down here pronto!  I'll be lucky enough if my grows keep me and my buddy in smoke.


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## Serapis (Aug 25, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> Unless you have a major grow op, a closet grow isn't going to pop up on any cameras. Plus, your dryer vent probably pushes out more heat than any room you'd consider growing. Think about it...


Do you seriously think that is the ONLY concern regarding using LED vs HID lights? You haven't read the thread, nor have you a clue. See my post above regarding what you SHOULD do. You need to worry more about the nerd and less about what others do...


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## Serapis (Aug 25, 2010)

420n00b said:


> Thanks for that, starting to make more sense the more I learn here and elsewhere. I found these two articles which helped me understand more, not just about spectrums but also lumens and such. They each touch on LED usage but the knowledge of spectrum and lumen coverage is great.
> 
> Article 1
> Article 2
> ...


Not at all bro! Thanks for sharing the info!! There is a LOT of interest in LEDs. There is a 300 watter on Craigslist in my area for about 1/3 of what it retails for. I am so tempted to add it too.

Those High Times articles on LEDs are the shiz.... very good reading for anyone that wishes to purchases LEDs but needs more research before they do.


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## blueberryblitz (Aug 25, 2010)

Haha yeah I wasn't sure where his comment was coming from seemed a little bit from left field, as far as the bud situation, same here seedy and stemmy as hell nothing like college at psu, but like you I am staying smaller and just getting enough for my girl and I, the trash around here we go through 1/2 each week so can't wait to take first hit of good shit and yeah electric bills are a bitch, back that with buying herb and well you get the idea, I'm still just using cfl's and doing decent but am still on the fence between the cmh or going led, love the fact of less power consumption and not as much need to vent but as you said the costs are still a little rich so we shall see


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## GreenNerd420 (Aug 27, 2010)

I said, "I apologize". WTF?


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## 420n00b (Aug 28, 2010)

Update? Wondering how they're doing =D


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## Retris (Aug 28, 2010)

There was an update 4 days ago, just a lot of activity in between lol.


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## Serapis (Aug 28, 2010)

I topped Runt to get 4 cola stems going and 2 days later, she is having problems. The leaves are curling up as if heat stressed however we all know what HTG Supply said, you can put the light right on top of em.

I flushed the hell out of it, cut off the crisp leaves and the new growth was looking good, now it is starting to twist and turn at the tips. The top of Runt is in a Grodan cube as a clone and is actually looking quite nice.

I also have 5 seeds going, 4 of which have germinated and one still waiting.

Runt has me confused. At first, it was just the old growth, and it did look like a MG deficiency, cause the leaves were folding up, as if in prayer. I lightly water in epsom salts, very little, and it fixed the prayer leaves, but now I have twisting leaves. Flushed heavily again and now mother nature has to do her thing. I can't keep taking action on it or I'll kill it. All others look fantastic, The stunted plants are thickening the stems and new growth looks luscious. I can't believe I may lose Runt, why the problems with just one plant? They all get watered the same, Runt gets a tad more, not using nutes yet.... Totally lost and resigned to let nature take her course. The new growth was shooting straight up to replace the topped stem. I was getting excited, now I'll be afraid to top the others... That was the ONLY difference....

Keep your fingers crossed for her...


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## blueberryblitz (Aug 29, 2010)

Completely spitballing here so noobs don't trust this, but you said in the beginning the light was too close and essentially the intensity burned them correct? Could it possibly be when you top and there is an open wound that the intensity of the lights has yet again caused some damage, ie to top maybe you need to take them away from the LEDs for a few hours, top let it fix the wound and then place back under the lights? Like I said might be completely off basis but just wanted to throw an idea out there


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## Serapis (Aug 29, 2010)

blueberryblitz said:


> Completely spitballing here so noobs don't trust this, but you said in the beginning the light was too close and essentially the intensity burned them correct? Could it possibly be when you top and there is an open wound that the intensity of the lights has yet again caused some damage, ie to top maybe you need to take them away from the LEDs for a few hours, top let it fix the wound and then place back under the lights? Like I said might be completely off basis but just wanted to throw an idea out there


Next time I top I might very well place them in the nursery for 24 under flouros. Thanks BB, it's worth a shot.

On another though, the only thing that causes leaves to twist is a deficiency. Since I'm using distilled water, there is no calcium or magnesium being introduced. I'm not feeding and the soil is weak in nutes, it's MG Organic Choice.

Here is what I did and I'm crossing my fingers I got this right. I mixed 1 qt of distilled water, 1/4 tsp magnesium salts, 7 drops of Shultz's Plant Food 10-15-10 and 16 oz of seltzer water w/ no sodium. This mix is for foliar feeding only ATM until my digital PH meter arrives Monday or Tuesday. I doubt the PH is off by much, I think it may be time to start feeding the plants, as they have been in the organic choice soil for almost 3 weeks now. certainly what little nutes were in the soil are about gone now. 

Runt was starting to lose some of her luscious green color as well, so I'm sure it is deficiency and I hope this foliar spray mix will do until the next watering/feeding in 3 days. I'll try to get pics up later this afternoon, the plants are finally beginning to grow, which is another reason I suspect nute deficiencies.

Any feedback that is constructive is very welcome.


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## dnkfrmthasoilz7 (Aug 29, 2010)

i hope you had fun paying 4 times the cost of and hid and getting lesser results. it that really worth it to have a 10$ less electric bill, is it worth it just so you don't have to fuck with cooling? ME thinks not. stick with the hid and get used to it guys because led prices aren't coming down and the quality is at a plateau. LED's will be no more a few years from now. get used to hps ( there really not bad ) till plasma sulfur tech. becomes more prevalent! - DNK


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## Serapis (Aug 29, 2010)

dnkfrmthasoilz7 said:


> i hope you had fun paying 4 times the cost of and hid and getting lesser results. it that really worth it to have a 10$ less electric bill, is it worth it just so you don't have to fuck with cooling? ME thinks not. stick with the hid and get used to it guys because led prices aren't coming down and the quality is at a plateau. LED's will be no more a few years from now. get used to hps ( there really not bad ) till plasma sulfur tech. becomes more prevalent! - DNK


It's fairly obvious from your clueless comments that you haven't done ANY research on today's LEDs, nor have you followed any of RIU's LED growers. And as far as power goes, LED systems are 90% more efficient in power consumption than hid lamps. The $10 savings figure you posted was pulled out of your ass. You obviously lack in math skills and the ability to convert usage into kwh. $10 difference? lol

You won't find us going into your 400w hps threads and trashing the wastefull energy costs of your lamps, so please show the same respect to LED growers.

If you have nothing constructive to say regarding a threads subject, perhaps you are better staying out of the thread and keeping your mouth shut? As I stated at the beginning of this thread, this is not a competition with hid systems, nor is it a forum for haters or LED bashers.

LEDS are far more advanced than plasma systems are. You just have to avoid the junk that looks like xmas lights claiming to be a grow light.


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## Serapis (Aug 29, 2010)

Hello everyone following this grow. It's time for the weekend update with some new pics.

The first two are Runt, she was topped, as you can see and now has the new growth growing up. She also has the deficiency I wrote about earlier that you can see. I'm going to post in a separate thread and ask for confirmation of my findings, that it is indeed magnesium.

I have to start feeding next watering. I guess I'm surprised the soil fed them this long.

The other ones are starting to stretch, however they too have a slight leaf curl that I believe I caught in time, because they are still luscious green.







View attachment 1126421View attachment 1126422View attachment 1126423View attachment 1126424


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## bar (Aug 29, 2010)

Definitely time to push for an LED sub forum i think !!!


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## breakneck (Aug 29, 2010)

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/359056-lets-add-led-growing-sub.html


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## tranquility (Aug 29, 2010)

that would be siick...IM ALL FOR THE l.e.d FORUM


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## Cannabist Communist (Aug 29, 2010)

dnkfrmthasoilz7 said:


> i hope you had fun paying 4 times the cost of and hid and getting lesser results. it that really worth it to have a 10$ less electric bill, is it worth it just so you don't have to fuck with cooling? ME thinks not. stick with the hid and get used to it guys because led prices aren't coming down and the quality is at a plateau. LED's will be no more a few years from now. get used to hps ( there really not bad ) till plasma sulfur tech. becomes more prevalent! - DNK


I can't believe the skulduggery that passes for trolling around here. When are they gonna learn to stop invading innocent grow journals and putting their unwanted comments where they simply don't belong? As if we _ever_ gloat about the superiority of LEDs in _their_ threads..



bar said:


> Definitely time to push for an LED sub forum i think !!!


 
Ooh! I _so_ third that motion!


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## Bag Lady (Aug 30, 2010)

Absolutely it is time for a sub forum. There was a major article in the Detroit Free Press about LED production coming back to the US and who the manufacturers are. From what I can tell they are not really aware that this IS an industry for them to tap. 



bar said:


> Definitely time to push for an LED sub forum i think !!!


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## Serapis (Aug 31, 2010)

*PICTURE UPDATE*

For being under LED lights a little over a week, they are starting to really look good. I included a pic of Runt, showing how the topping has affected her. She now has growth indicating 4 colas will be grown. She currently has two main branches growing up and you can see the other growth from the 2nd node's main fan leaves start to point upward and form new nodes.

Two of the others are near topping time as well. I'm cloning the tops that I clip to determine if they have what it takes to be a mom plant. I'll take additional cuttings from the best looking plant once we are 3 weeks into flowering.

*SEEDLINGS:*

All 5 seeds sprouted using my new trusty method. No more peat pellets for me. I just use starter mix, wet it, plant a seed, keep the top misted and cover with a dark black plastic Glad Ovenware tray. 4-5 days later, 100% germs. However, every seed hull stuck to the starter leaves. One needed a gentle touch from me, the rest eventually dropped the hull and skin, I just needed to keep misting to keep the hull pliable.

I'm not sure why I started the seeds now. I have 5 good looking plants that will be ready for flowering soon. I guess I'll top them all, and let the seedlings catch up. I was worried I wasn't going to have the recovery that these have been showing. I have 5 seeds left that I'll place away for a rainy day. I plan on using clones for the foreseeable future.

*SCROGING:*

I finally found my net material for the scrog grow! I have been looking everywhere for something suitable and was prepared to order a damn badminton net. I wanted something with more support though and I finally found it at Lowes in the garden section, hiding with the chain link fence. It is a 2" mesh 25' x 2' wide home fence made of a pliable plastic that comes in green or white. 

I'll be mounting eye bolts in the walls about 10" above the pot tops and securing the netting with mini bungee cords to the eye bolts. I'm not scroging this grow because:

A.) I need to determine I have true females before I start weaving plants in a scrog only to find I have to remove one later when the weaving is near finished and flowering begins.

B.) I want only the best genetics and growing from seed usually introduces several traits. Once I have clones going, I'll use about 8 plants per grow to fill the screen with colas.

I will start a separate scrog thread when I begin to do a scrog LED grow. I'll link the new thread at the end of this one when I get ready to post the harvested weight from the 10 plants going now. 

Questions, constructive comments, and general well wishes are all welcome. check out the Runt pic below and see if you can spot the new main branches growing. (hint" look for the arrows) 


View attachment 1129617View attachment 1129618View attachment 1129619


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## potpimp (Aug 31, 2010)

Glad to see you doing the U.B. style topping Serapis! It sure worked great for me. Today I chopped one of the tops that I rooted a few months back. It was only about 3' tall but I'll probably get about 2 oz of bud from it. Runt is looking fantastic; you're going to have to rename her, LOL. Glad to see everything going well.


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## okayimreloaded (Aug 31, 2010)

jus wondering if led lights are better or what? im not really experienced in growing


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## Serapis (Aug 31, 2010)

okayimreloaded said:


> jus wondering if led lights are better or what? im not really experienced in growing


That's what the thread is here to find out. Stick around and watch us grow...


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## luckyskindaguy (Aug 31, 2010)

Not sure why you planted all your seeds? You had the LED too close to the seedlings and were afraid they were going to die. Look at it this way, you have more moms to choose from!!


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## Serapis (Sep 1, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Not sure why you planted all your seeds? You had the LED too close to the seedlings and were afraid they were going to die. Look at it this way, you have more moms to choose from!!


I wasn't planning on cloning the tops either, but hey, now I have 4 clones in the propagator now too, and 5 new seedlings... I hate to toss anything out....

I'll get you guys some new pics when the topping shows results.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 1, 2010)

Serapis, did you read my comments about keeping the Veg leaves? They work great for using to make butter!


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## Serapis (Sep 1, 2010)

I haven't started yet, caue when I clone tops, I'm only getting two 5 point fan leaves per plant, but yes, I need to start saving them. I have a mini fridge I need to move back into my bedroom so I can store the clippings.


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## WattSaver (Sep 2, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I haven't started yet, caue when I clone tops, I'm only getting two 5 point fan leaves per plant, but yes, I need to start saving them. I have a mini fridge I need to move back into my bedroom so I can store the clippings.


Dry your trimmings. all leaf by-products starts dry.


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## Serapis (Sep 2, 2010)

WattSaver said:


> Dry your trimmings. all leaf by-products starts dry.


Yep, and for long storage, freeze them.


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## WattSaver (Sep 2, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Yep, and for long storage, freeze them.


Never figured out the shelf life, I just love my bedtime brownies.


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## RoundTree (Sep 4, 2010)

Not only is this an amazing grow, With those led lights its a PERFECT RAVE room!


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## Plantsrfun (Sep 4, 2010)

Serapis i've just made it to the current portion of your grow. You have one hell of a closet setup. Kudos on the design. Any recent pics? I noticed your temps were at 84f and you are running leds only... what is the ambient temp in the room your intake pulls from? I am running a 400w MH in a small closet and never hit more than 80. I'm typically in the 76-78 range during the peak of the day. I'm just curious how your temps are as high as they are with you running leds along with an intake/exhaust system in place. 

You made mention of being particularly careful in regards to the FLIR packing helicopters? For one, Coming onto a site posting pictures of your grow op would be more self incriminating than a helicopter spotting your 90 degree closet which could easily be viewed as a hot water heater or other small heat emitting appliance. Numerous cases have proven that they are looking for much larger setups that cannot be mistaken for anything other than a large room(s) of concentrated heat that would resemble a grow op. I'm not posting this to be rude in anyway, but rather shed some light (no pun intended) on this issue. Watts are watts whether it be from leds or hids.


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## Serapis (Sep 4, 2010)

In the summer, our average temperature is near 100 degrees. My house thermo is set for 80 during the day. The intake pulls from a room that has a window AC and that room is kept at 77.

FLIR wasn't on the top of my list of concerns, heat and power usage were. Heat in sense of the closet getting hot. I could have easily vented to attic, however power consumption was really my top priority.


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## Serapis (Sep 4, 2010)

*Update:

*These guys are starting to get big for the pots.They handled their first nutes well* as *you can see in the pics. Runt is really taking off, she is plant number 1. I have cloned all 5 tops and they are looking extremely well. Runt's clone has been under the dome now for about a week, still no signs of roots, but she is using her big fans to feed herself.*

SEEDLINGS:

*They are looking great. I anticipate having to repot them by next weekend.


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## potpimp (Sep 4, 2010)

Man those are looking amazing. What size are those square pots and where did you get them? I've wanted to get some square ones because the round ones have so much wasted space vs a square one.


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## Serapis (Sep 4, 2010)

The pots are 6.25" x 6.25" and 8" deep. My thoughts on purchasing 18 of the was SOG, but now that I plan on scrogging, I'm going to need pots about twice that size. The pots were NOT easy to find. Everyone sells round ones. BG Hydro was the store. Just did an internet order and they shipped. They also have the new 7" propagator dome with adjustable vents.

Pot's were $1.39 ea. They are great size for vegging. The deep pot sets up an excellent root system. I wanted square for same reason. Once I read Rosenthall's comments on square pots, I just had to have them.


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## 420n00b (Sep 4, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I wanted square for same reason. Once I read Rosenthall's comments on square pots, I just had to have them.


Do explain =D


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## Serapis (Sep 4, 2010)

Square pots do not leave any wasted space in the drip trays. If you use round pots, you lose the space between the pots for roots. Square pots are more efficient with the space.


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## WWShadow (Sep 4, 2010)

given the investment you have made with the LED's for lighting how long would you say it would take for it to pay off, whether it's just for persaonal use or as a care giver or what ever?
I ask because that is a lot of cash to put up front. Actually I am more interested in the results than how much the upfront costs were.


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## tobikan.judan (Sep 5, 2010)

square anything is more efficient than round. Coca cola is switching to square cans soon. Less materials for amount of liquid, they're stackable, and is going to save space (and money) in shipment. I'm using square pots also, great buy!


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## Serapis (Sep 5, 2010)

WWShadow said:


> given the investment you have made with the LED's for lighting how long would you say it would take for it to pay off, whether it's just for persaonal use or as a care giver or what ever?
> I ask because that is a lot of cash to put up front. Actually I am more interested in the results than how much the upfront costs were.


I'm not an accountant, so I really have no idea. consider this though; the closet has a singe light socket with a pull chain. I'm drawing ALL of my power from that single socket. I couldn't do that with hid lamps. I would need to run a dedicated circuit. My panel is about 90' from where service is needed, so figure the cost of that copper at 12 gauge plus a new breaker at around $45. Then you have to consider the power to run the lights. I'm generating PAR equivalent to about 1200 hid watts, yet I'm only using 296w. I also don't need to vent a lot of heat out of the closet.

In power alone, I'm guessing the lights pay for themselves after about 4-5 grows, so about a year. This grow and all others are personal. I have no intent to distribute or traffic. I plan to smoke every bit while waiting for the next grow.


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## potpimp (Sep 5, 2010)

Actually a sphere encloses the most volume of any shape, with the least about of surface exposure. But that's not the point with pots. I had not read Ed's comment about the square pots; it just made sense to me. Thanks for the info Serapis; I'll be ordering some of those.


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## Serapis (Sep 5, 2010)

$1.39 ea is a bargain! And I love the fact they are soooooo deep. I think some would call them orchid pots or bulb pots. I know the roots in MJ love deep soil. I read somewhere that the longer the tap root can grow, the higher the yield. I guess it has to do with water and nute intakes.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Sep 6, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I plan to smoke every bit while waiting for the next grow.


And if you can't smoke it all, you just have to try harder - everything takes effort


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## Serapis (Sep 6, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Actually a sphere encloses the most volume of any shape, with the least about of surface exposure. But that's not the point with pots. I had not read Ed's comment about the square pots; it just made sense to me. Thanks for the info Serapis; I'll be ordering some of those.


I just purchased 8 of the 10.25" x 10.25" x 10.25" (3 gallon) square pots for my scrog grows. I'm thinking one pot per 2' square. I can have 4 scrogging and 4 vegging... I may end up having to get a tent if my cloning program is successful. I have a spare 10' x 10' room in my house and can't seem to get it rented to a roommate, so maybe I need to do something else with it?


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## Serapis (Sep 6, 2010)

Grumpy Old Dreamer said:


> And if you can't smoke it all, you just have to try harder - everything takes effort


I'm gonna try real hard.  I'm not a quitter!  lol


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## BuddGreen (Sep 6, 2010)

You know your set-up is the shit when you get the haters running every lip in their mouth!!! Keep up the great work.


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## Serapis (Sep 6, 2010)

Thanks Budd and welcome to the thread.


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## Serapis (Sep 6, 2010)

To anybody following along that was interested in deep square pots, BGH has lowered the price to $1.29 now and have added other sizes. They now have a 10" square pot 10.25" deep for only $3.69 a pot. these pots are made of a sturdy thick plastic and the edges are turned, which means you can use paper clips or small bungee hooks on the outside edge for those of you that use LST or bending techniques. The 10" sq pot is equivalent to a 3 gallon round pot. With a depth of 10.25", it is ideal for mature root balls.

I make nothing off of endorsing BGHydro, but I feel that their pricing and the quality of goods they carry are worth passing on to all. If you are tired of googling or eBaying for great hydro supplies, check out:

http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/Index.asp

Forgot to mention, they also take check, money orders, visa, Mc, American Express and Paypal.


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## AudiXo (Sep 8, 2010)

What are the Watts per led panel you have on the wall? I tried some 50Watt panels and didn't get good results from them and had to take them out.


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## Serapis (Sep 8, 2010)

The wall panels are 16w each. Probably a wasted purchase, however LED lights are very directional and don't get reflection, so I wanted some light coming in from the side of the canopy. Combined they are 112W on the walls and 240W overhead.


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## Commander Rainbow Veins (Sep 8, 2010)

nice grow op.
love to see leds put up
im going to be looking forward to seeing your girls at there fullest.

o also have you thought about making a worm bin its cheap, simple and easy ;D


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## gdp808 (Sep 8, 2010)

I got a 600watt led going myself, so far, so good!


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## WWShadow (Sep 8, 2010)

were you able to determine what your starting height for the leds should have been? I still can't believe they burned your plants... I'm still trying to talk my wife into the investment for at least 1 of the big ones. Ballsy grow definitely & looking good too!


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## Serapis (Sep 8, 2010)

WWShadow said:


> were you able to determine what your starting height for the leds should have been? I still can't believe they burned your plants... I'm still trying to talk my wife into the investment for at least 1 of the big ones. Ballsy grow definitely & looking good too!


12" minimum for younger plants. Once they harden to the light and the stems begin to thicken, you can bring the light in at around 6-8", just make sure you have fans moving the air. While the LEDs throw off little heat, they can be intense and radiate the leaves, essentially cooking them. Seedlings should remain under Flouros for at least 14 days and only be exposed to LEDS several hours at a time per day for the first few days. This is just my experience, mileage may vary.

The funny thing was, HTG Supply NEVER advised about the proper height of provided any feedback about my complaints. For a company that claims to have extensively researched LED grow lights, I call bull shit. Their REP stated my soil burned the plants. Funny how it didn't the first 2 weeks, but did after 2 hours under the new LEDS.

Next time you read that something was "extensively" tested, ask to see proof. I believe HTG's auction listings are full of shit. They compare to HID which is impossible to do as the lights are using different wavelengths. They also claim their lights are comparable to a 600w hid or a 1kw hid without explaining how they determine that. They also couldn't answer what degrees the led diodes were....

While i like these lights, I feel that the advertising was all hype and BS to persuade people to make uninformed purchases. all HTG and ask about the LED lighting. They haven't a clue.


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## potpimp (Sep 9, 2010)

"Extensive testing" = Plug in, yep it's working, unplug, LOL. Sad to say this biz is soooooooo infested with snake oil salesmen. Not saying that a lot of the products are not good, just that the hype gets knee deep sometimes, especially with companies like Advanced Nutrients.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 9, 2010)

Serapis said:


> 12" minimum for younger plants. Once they harden to the light and the stems begin to thicken, you can bring the light in at around 6-8", just make sure you have fans moving the air. While the LEDs throw off little heat, they can be intense and radiate the leaves, essentially cooking them. Seedlings should remain under Flouros for at least 14 days and only be exposed to LEDS several hours at a time per day for the first few days. This is just my experience, mileage may vary.
> 
> The funny thing was, HTG Supply NEVER advised about the proper height of provided any feedback about my complaints. For a company that claims to have extensively researched LED grow lights, I call bull shit. Their REP stated my soil burned the plants. Funny how it didn't the first 2 weeks, but did after 2 hours under the new LEDS.
> 
> ...


That is why I didn't jump head first into LED's myself. Too many statements by companies all saying the same thing. They can't all have "the best". One thing that has not changed about the LED vs. HPS, you can run them in smaller spaces with less venting if any than HPS. Looking at my cab now, I know I could never run an HPS in this cab unless I flower 6" plants! You can't think that is gonna beat an 18" plant flowered with LED! LOL, well some people on this site might 

Hope things are well with your ladies Serapis! I'm looking forward to seeing how yours flower  I just started a couple more bagseeds a couple days ago. Found some in a bag of bud that had purple strain in it. I'm hoping to get some cool looking plants out of it


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## zingzang (Sep 9, 2010)

Thanks for the thread, I've been following it for a couple of weeks now. 
You have inspired me to do an LED grow of my own. 

I went with a Lumigrow ES 250 and it has knobs to adjust the power of the light
Most of mine are still seedlings, so I have my LED fixture turned down a bit to be safe.
(I only had my seedlings under the florescent light for a few days)

Thanks for growing where no man has gone before 
and leading the way and all that


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## Serapis (Sep 9, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> That is why I didn't jump head first into LED's myself. Too many statements by companies all saying the same thing. They can't all have "the best". One thing that has not changed about the LED vs. HPS, you can run them in smaller spaces with less venting if any than HPS. Looking at my cab now, I know I could never run an HPS in this cab unless I flower 6" plants! You can't think that is gonna beat an 18" plant flowered with LED! LOL, well some people on this site might
> 
> Hope things are well with your ladies Serapis! I'm looking forward to seeing how yours flower  I just started a couple more bagseeds a couple days ago. Found some in a bag of bud that had purple strain in it. I'm hoping to get some cool looking plants out of it


If you post a grow thread or journal, I'll follow!!



zingzang said:


> Thanks for the thread, I've been following it for a couple of weeks now.
> You have inspired me to do an LED grow of my own.
> 
> I went with a Lumigrow ES 250 and it has knobs to adjust the power of the light
> ...


They may some of the best LED lights on the market! Be careful with your babies. LEDs can burn em as you know if you followed this thread. It's amazing a salesman at HTG had no idea that was possible. He was blaming everything from the HOT soil to my water PH.... It was painfully clear that 2 hours under these lights at 8" did the damage.

I know have both LED overheads and all wall panels running and even with my fans and exhaust going, I can't get temps below 90 w/o opening closet door. 

I may have to rethink my venting strategy....


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 9, 2010)

Right now I just have the seeds in my second grow of my sig. I may start another journal once they start showing their genetics


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 10, 2010)

LEDs are so cool looking.


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## Serapis (Sep 11, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> LEDs are so cool looking.


That is yet another intelligent observation. Welcome back.............


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## Retris (Sep 11, 2010)

Serapis said:


> That is yet another intelligent observation. Welcome back.............


 Hence the avatar.


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## dreamwalk (Sep 12, 2010)

I'm a newbie to the forums and just went through the entire thread. It's intriguing, but I'm not able to spend that kind of money on a grow op. I have started a few seeds for germination, but it'll just be a small op for just myself.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Sep 12, 2010)

Dreamwalk ... for a small op just for self supply you might want to consider CFL lights, have a look at this thread ... https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/359234-buds-less-setup-first-grow.html it shows what is possible for an outlay of about $100 in lighting. 
I'm currently in the early stages of a similar grow using CFL's but one day will probably switch to LEDs - if Australia eventually has decent LEDs available and not just the crappy chinese mass produced garbage.

Both this thread and the "buds for less" thread are two treads that I check for updates before any other reading.


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## Serapis (Sep 12, 2010)

dreamwalk said:


> I'm a newbie to the forums and just went through the entire thread. It's intriguing, but I'm not able to spend that kind of money on a grow op. I have started a few seeds for germination, but it'll just be a small op for just myself.


Welcome to RIU! We are glad to have you here. Thanks for taking the time to follow along. If you have any questions, feel free to ask. A pictorial update is coming later today.


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## WattSaver (Sep 12, 2010)

Things are looking good Serapis. Hope you find a home for all your little ones. I too have more veg girls than future flower room. This problem can only lead to innovation.

No hi-jack intended here, and I will not answer question here. Just call it a motivational commercial. 

1st butchered plant from LED Grow. Cinderella 99, 8 weeks veg (under florescent), 7 1/2 weeks flower under LED


Whats left after the butchering


LED DOES WORK!!!


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 12, 2010)

Im subbed the rest of the way.


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## Serapis (Sep 12, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> Im subbed the rest of the way.


Glad to have you along.


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Glad to have you along.


I didnt mean to start a back n forth thing i just want results.Some people get butthurt and thats how you can tell who is lying.


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## Serapis (Sep 12, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> I didnt mean to start a back n forth thing i just want results.Some people get butthurt and thats how you can tell who is lying.


As long as you remember you are a guest here, you are welcome to observe. This is not the place to carry on our earlier conversation and debate over LEDs and HIDs..... I can assure you, the number of subs in this thread are LED supporters and won't put up with any BS.


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> As long as you remember you are a guest here, you are welcome to observe. This is not the place to carry on our earlier conversation and debate over LEDs and HIDs..... I can assure you, the number of subs in this thread are LED supporters and won't put up with any BS.


 My intentions was to just observe not compare.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 12, 2010)

Hey Serapis, how are the ladies doing?


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## Serapis (Sep 12, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Hey Serapis, how are the ladies doing?


They are looking good. I'm sorry I didn't get pics up today. I've been in bed all day with a damn cold. I did have a small bout of acidity PH, but that has been taken care of. I've upped my watering regimen to PH 7.5 for the time being until the lime has time to kick in. i'll do a full update sometime tomorrow. I apologize for missing the usual sunday pics.

The seedlings took nutes for the first time yesterday. the first set of leaves were showing signs of yellowing, so I assume the seed hull has done it's job. My starter mix has like zero nutes in it.


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## stelthy (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi dude bit late getting here  but am starting from the beginning and starting to read the 1st page of this thread now - STELTHY


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## Serapis (Sep 12, 2010)

Thanks Stelthy for joining the thread. I love your grow op!! Feel free to share one pic here of your cabinet for the others to see. I loved checking it out.


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## stelthy (Sep 12, 2010)

If its ok Ill add 1 pic and a LINK from that grow and 1 pic and 1 LINK from my latest project,  glad you enjoyed my input..hows your latest grow going? - STELTHY


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## stelthy (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi all here's a link to my old grow.. https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/281701-2x-90-watt-ufos-1x.html - STELTHY


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## stelthy (Sep 12, 2010)

Hi again  this is my latest build (still in progress) and here's a LINK to the PROJECT from start to date :- https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/320402-stelthys-600w-hps-project-new.html feel free to ask any questions etc, thanks for letting me post those Serapis good luck - STELTHY


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## mr2shim (Sep 13, 2010)

That's a nice setup, I'm jealous..

Is that a TV monitor up top?


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 13, 2010)

Very nice setup, Stealthy. You've definitely succeeded in hijacking this thread.


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## Serapis (Sep 13, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> Very nice setup, Stealthy. You've definitely succeeded in hijacking this thread.


No he didn't, he was invited to show his grow room because I liked it. You on the other hand are quickly becoming a pain in the ass.....


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## Serapis (Sep 13, 2010)

*FLUSHED*

I had to flush the ladies again. Second time since July, guess it was coming. The plants were showing signs of calcium deficiency. The PH in the run off last week was 7.2, so I really wasn't thinking lock out at the time and I added in some al/Mag. When I watered yesterday, I had PH coming back at 6.2 and the source water was 6.5, so I knew right then I had Ca and Mg lockout.... sigh... what a hobby...

Two of the plants started to show the shiny crinkle in the leaves so I took all 5 plants to the shower and hit each one with 3 gallons of tap water. The run off looked like tea at first but in the end it was clear. I'm hoping the lime and my tap's 7.0 PH keeps the ph level up. When I do a salt/nute flush I don't bother with Ph readings, my goal is just to leech the soil. I'll be feeding and analyzing run off tomorrow. Calcium is very important to plant growth. I think I may start using tap water because this is twice Ca and Mg have been locked out in this grow. I should have top dressed all plants with lime when Runt had this same very issue 2 weeks ago.

I have lowered the lights to about 6" above the plants and they are on a 18/6 cycle.

The seedlings are looking great, I'll be transplanting them soon into a nice hot, nute rich soil. I'm hoping my experience with the first batch will allow this second batch to catch up quickly in growth so I can flower them together. If it means delaying flowering for plants 1-5, then oh well. I haven't smoked weed in 2 months now anyways, another month won't hurt in the wait.... sigh....

Seedlings are on a 20/4 cycle. I killed the clones when I let them breathe and forgot to place dome back on.... lesson learned.... It only took 2 hours for the leaves to turn to dried out pulp. If you raise clones in a dome, and need to let fresh air in, stay with them and replace dome before leaving. I was looking forward to raising the tops as new plants.... that sucks.

As always, any INTELLIGENT (highlighted for those like nerdy) feedback or comments or questions are welcome.


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## Drufiss1 (Sep 13, 2010)

wow those are some serious set ups, cool as hell looking. deff will have to watch this as i was wondering about LEDs.


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## WWShadow (Sep 13, 2010)

Lookin' good Serapis! I gotta ask, how much heat does one of your overhead LED's put out? Using the twisty CFL's & heat is problem. It's a small cab I'm working on converting 20" X 25" X 72"
I was thinking about sticking a cmh in there but I would have to use a cool tube or make my own small cool tube. Then I remembered you with your LED grow. I've considered LED's but the cost is up there, however investment wise if it solves the excess heat issue then it'll be more than worth it. I was looking at HTG & they have the 90w ufo a 120w & the 300w. You have the 300 right? would the heat be too much for that size space (it's vented) the cab is gonna be split top for seadlings or clones & moms & the bottom to veg/flower. I don't have it all wowrked out yet but I found that just seven 26 watt cfl bulbs really heats that thing up. I'm hoping you'll tell me that the LED is the answer. if not then I think I just need to look at a larger cab & invest in the cool tube.
happy growing!


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## 7thtoker (Sep 13, 2010)

drooling... that is f**king siiiick

way to grow GOOD SHOW BRO


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 13, 2010)

Plants look goods...How much panels are you using?


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 13, 2010)

There are always lessons you learn as you go. It is often the little things that are overlooked, then later you feel like a retard, lol. Hang in there and add it to "experience". The task now is to not make the SAME mistake over and over. 

How long until you have some plants on a flowering schedule?


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## Serapis (Sep 14, 2010)

WWShadow said:


> Lookin' good Serapis!
> 
> ....
> I'm hoping you'll tell me that the LED is the answer. if not then I think I just need to look at a larger cab & invest in the cool tube.
> happy growing!


If you are growing for yourself and not needing to grow more than 3 plants, I think the UFO is an excellent choice for cabinets. I have two of the 120 tri-bands and some cheap light on the walls for side lighting. 


I'm attempting to keep it 100% LED. They do stay cool, but you'll still need to move air. I have a powered exhaust fan up high on the wall near my ceiling and a passive intake down low in a room that stays 76 degrees.

try to get the 120w for around 250 at auction. It's a nice light. tri- or quad band.


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## Serapis (Sep 14, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> There are always lessons you learn as you go. It is often the little things that are overlooked, then later you feel like a retard, lol. Hang in there and add it to "experience". The task now is to not make the SAME mistake over and over.
> 
> How long until you have some plants on a flowering schedule?


That is exactly correct. If I kill the next set of clones the same way I'll keep buying seeds.... I need one of those clone machines.... maybe for Christmas? Haha

The flowering depends on fast these seedlings catch up. They are already on their 2nd true node and I see the 3rd already coming out. The spacing is tight as hell!  These Bubleicious will make some nice tight buds. I'll transplant them soon and get em in some feeding soil.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 14, 2010)

Serapis said:


> That is exactly correct. If I kill the next set of clones the same way I'll keep buying seeds.... I need one of those clone machines.... maybe for Christmas? Haha
> 
> The flowering depends on fast these seedlings catch up. They are already on their 2nd true node and I see the 3rd already coming out. The spacing is tight as hell!  These Bubleicious will make some nice tight buds. I'll transplant them soon and get em in some feeding soil.


Nah! you don't need a special cloner. I had really poor luck at first, but once you get a method that works it's a cake walk. Just make sure you keep them moist! I lift my lid 2-3 times a day and just blow on the leaves to give them air circulation. I never risk leaving the dome off until I see roots spreading out.

Too bad the clones didn't make it though. Hope we see some buds soon


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## stelthy (Sep 14, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> That's a nice setup, I'm jealous..
> 
> Is that a TV monitor up top?


Hi mr2shim, thanks man  Yeah kinda... its a night-vision CCTV monitor.. 'so when I want to check on the girls and read the thermometer temp's, I can do so without opening the unit and releasing her potent smell's  baring in mind my wife's pregnant and has a hyper sensitive nose, and it also helps keep my setup 'STEALTH' The whole unit is covered in Chopper-Stopper and once finished will be painted jet black all over to tidy it up etc  Glad you like my work... The pic above that was my 1st project (The one Serapis was interested in  ) And that gave me over 7 Oz from 2 plants under 2X 90watt LED UFOs and an envirolite/envirogrow horticultural light, my new unit is more HID focused for HID experimenting but I have 5 large CFL cups in there so I may use those and I still have my led lights, so have lots to keep me occupied.

I really like what serapis has done with his grow space, its along the lines of what I'd try to achieve if I went 100% LED its a very nice clean organised setup, .. and as the saying goes you only get out what you put in, This is one of MY favourite threads at the mo, I look forward to seeing his progress.

Peace - STELTHY


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## umm....chris (Sep 14, 2010)

Serapis sub'd shits tight 
im thinking of getting a 120w too 
it would be sick in my cab
because of heat issues with a hid


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## soop (Sep 14, 2010)

Everytime I see your pics ... with those side lights ... all I can think of is ...

DISCO! DISCO!


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## TheJointProject (Sep 15, 2010)

hey serapis! sorry to hear about the clones brother. Sucks. I was having the same trouble for the longest time. I had a clone success rate of about 10% or so until I found this:
https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/103903-best-diy-ez-walmart-dwc.html
Costs about $15 to make and every single cutting I put in there roots within 7-10 days max. From there you can put them into soil or any other medium you wish. Worked wonders for my grow and my confidence. Not tryin to say you don't know what you're doing, just trying to offer some help. Everything else is lookin great tho! Every time you update it gives the LED scene a little more solid ground to stand on. Keep it up!


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## BC Bud Box (Sep 15, 2010)

Here's mine...


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## tranquility (Sep 15, 2010)

\damn..thats legitt!...i wanna do somthing like that with my 150w hps but im having trouble finding a cheap armoire, or locker, tv stand lol


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 15, 2010)

BC Bud Box said:


> Here's mine...


Ooo. Red chains! That's sweet!


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## a9ymous (Sep 15, 2010)

This is a really nice setup, serapis. It makes me want to invest in at least a UFO from HTG. I did an LED grow last year, one of my first real attempts, in a cabinet; had three 14w on the back and sides, and one 45w and one 50w at top (all square panels). It actually did a pretty well but went herm, as so much bagseed will, and it was rangy even when vegging under strong CFLs (so I know it wasn't stretching for light, just a tall strain). I am just finishing a batch of autos under an HTG compact t5 (2 ft 4 tube) fixture, using some LED sidelights, but really want to try an all-LED grow again with some of the decent seed I've got now. 

Like you I found that the heat output was next to nothing and all plants seem to like the light, if they're quality LED bulbs. And I wanted to be able to put it on a small battery backup system (like 1 marine battery) because we have outages in this area so often, never got around to it but I think it could be done easily. There are a lot of advantages to going this way and threads like this are great to see. 

Keep the pics coming! Those girls look happy


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## Glarbo (Sep 15, 2010)

man i just read every single post in this thread, and i must say that the grow room looks absolutely amazing! ill be starting my own soon enough and had been wondering wether or not to use LED's but keep it up man! ;D


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## breakneck (Sep 15, 2010)

Looks good bro!


BC Bud Box said:


> Here's mine...


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## Plantsrfun (Sep 15, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Let me start briefly shouting out to all the others that have gone out before me and posted journals, guides and tips. I have lurked and studied for nearly 2 years and finally made the move. I ordered 10 feminized Bubbleicious seeds from Nirvana as well as a germ kit and fert tabs to cover germination and feeding while in vegetative growth.
> 
> I decided to go LED simply because this is a stealthy set up without a high power bill or heat and heat signatures that can be picked up easily by police chopper cams. This set up stays at 84 degrees with fans off.
> 
> ...


 
Hey man can you tell me a bit more about your ventilation? Is your intake the 6" inline BOOSTER fan from homedept? and is the exhaust fan the same? You have a nice setup there and I am looking to do something similar for my flowering room! Let me know.

Thanks


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## Serapis (Sep 15, 2010)

BC Bud Box said:


> Here's mine...


Dude, that shit is tight!!!! Great looking cabinet! Thanks for sharing! You should be VERY proud of that as I'm sure you are.



TheJointProject said:


> hey serapis! sorry to hear about the clones brother. Sucks. I was having the same trouble for the longest time. I had a clone success rate of about 10% or so until I found this:
> https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/103903-best-diy-ez-walmart-dwc.html
> Costs about $15 to make and every single cutting I put in there roots within 7-10 days max. From there you can put them into soil or any other medium you wish. Worked wonders for my grow and my confidence. Not tryin to say you don't know what you're doing, just trying to offer some help. Everything else is lookin great tho! Every time you update it gives the LED scene a little more solid ground to stand on. Keep it up!


Thanks TJP. I appreciate that link. I'm a soil man and my first step into hydro will be that clone box! That's perfect size for me.



tranquility said:


> \damn..thats legitt!...i wanna do somthing like that with my 150w hps but im having trouble finding a cheap armoire, or locker, tv stand lol


Hey Tranquility, keep an eye on your Craig's list. There is bound to be something in there.



GreenNerd420 said:


> Ooo. Red chains! That's sweet!


You never cease to amaze me bro....



a9ymous said:


> This is a really nice setup, serapis. It makes me want to invest in at least a UFO from HTG. I did an LED grow last year, one of my first real attempts, in a cabinet; had three 14w on the back and sides, and one 45w and one 50w at top (all square panels). It actually did a pretty well but went herm, as so much bagseed will, and it was rangy even when vegging under strong CFLs (so I know it wasn't stretching for light, just a tall strain). I am just finishing a batch of autos under an HTG compact t5 (2 ft 4 tube) fixture, using some LED sidelights, but really want to try an all-LED grow again with some of the decent seed I've got now.
> 
> Like you I found that the heat output was next to nothing and all plants seem to like the light, if they're quality LED bulbs. And I wanted to be able to put it on a small battery backup system (like 1 marine battery) because we have outages in this area so often, never got around to it but I think it could be done easily. There are a lot of advantages to going this way and threads like this are great to see.
> 
> Keep the pics coming! Those girls look happy


Thanks for the kind words my man! I have one plant that's looking all iffy on me now, twisted leaves and shit but no discoloration. It looks different from my other plants, I don't believe it is a Bubleicious.



Plantsrfun said:


> Hey man can you tell me a bit more about your ventilation? Is your intake the 6" inline BOOSTER fan from homedept? and is the exhaust fan the same? You have a nice setup there and I am looking to do something similar for my flowering room! Let me know.
> 
> Thanks


 Hi Plantsrfun, I'll be happy to.

The intake is pretty much passive, but I do have a 6" inline 160 FM drawing in air from 6" above the floor so gets the cold stuff. The exhaust is within 6" of the ceiling and is a Home Depot 6" wall pass through that is somewhere in the 400 cfm range (to keep negative pressure in grow room). This is an ideal fan for those with no attic space, such as a first floor closet. I vent into my master bath and that br door is sealed. I have the window cracked in the bath room and my back yard is starting to smell good. I also have a 6" HTG inline blowing cooler air from flouro nursery into the LED chamber.

It's amazing how strong these Bubleicious are smelling, even in veg. I got these because they were kinda low odor I assumed, lol.

The exhaust fan is an order only item from the HD. I've pictured it below so you can see the manufacturer pic.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 15, 2010)

BC Bud Box said:


> Here's mine...


How much did it cost for this setup? Nicely done!


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## WWShadow (Sep 15, 2010)

BC Bud Box said:


> Here's mine...


where did you get that cabinet? that is sweet?


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## umm....chris (Sep 15, 2010)

its a tool cabinet lowes home depot hardware store maybe


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## BC Bud Box (Sep 16, 2010)

WWShadow said:


> where did you get that cabinet? that is sweet?


The cabinet came out of China.


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## Cru3l (Sep 17, 2010)

Wow that locker setup was amazing..


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## Serapis (Sep 18, 2010)

*PROGRESS:*

Plants #1 & #2 have taken off. #2 is now tallest. I've read a lot and I've learned that Bubblelicious loves to stretch in flower, so I've decided to trip the light fantastic. Starting tonight, they'll be on 12/12 finally. I'll post some pics in a few days.

*SEEDLINGS:*

Seedlings are doing VERY well. They are already showing 3rd true node and the nodes are one on top of the other with little to no spacing. I'm hoping they stretch a bit. The stems are about 1/8" thick now and they are getting close to wanting transplanting. I have them on Peters Plant Food 10-15-10, very weak solution.

Have a great weekend.


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## newworldicon (Sep 18, 2010)

WattSaver said:


> I've just joined this site and have spent the last few hrs reading this thread. I'm interested in your LED grow, cause I'm trying it myself. I like your mini set up and it sounds like you've done your homework. I do have a few ?? and comments.
> 
> I'm still concerned about your height limitation. Bending and trimming will keep them down but will increase your horz surface area. One thing I have noticed using the LED is that the light strength diminishes quickly as you get outside of the frame of the light housing. So I'd say to increase horz surface outside the fixture will weaken or slow bud formation. Also in an earlier set of post the discussion was on led wattage's and the 1 watt diode being more efficient than the 3 watt'ers. I have a 350w 6 spectrum combo 3 and 1 watt diode lamp. I've taken my cheap light intensity meter and compared my lamp to a comparable 300 all 1 watt lamp (actual diode wattage 320 & 288 from 12" down my lamp has twice the intensity and I can still place my hand on the lens. I've seen a 180w lamp with 30 6w diodes and the heat coming off of it was intense for a LED. So I'd say the 3w is an upgrade to the 1w but I'm not sold on the 6w. (I didn't get a chance for and intensity test before it sold from the grow store)
> 
> ...


I'm interested in LED too, can you tell me who you bought yours from please and any grow pics would be great, especially the flowering. Thanks


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## Serapis (Sep 18, 2010)

newworldicon said:


> I'm interested in LED too, can you tell me who you bought yours from please and any grow pics would be great, especially the flowering. Thanks


They are just now starting flowering light cycle. This entire thread is full of grow pics. 

thanks for looking


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## Serapis (Sep 18, 2010)

After doing some selective pruning on my plants, I've decided to veg a bit longer. Only 2 plants have decent clone potentials, so it's too soon. I swear sometimes I feel the seedlings will catch up. I think 2 more weeks of veg. I have had to raise lights twice in last week, so they are beginning to do their thing.

*PRUNING:*

You'll read a lot about this subject and almost always, you'll notice there are two camps of thought on this subject. There are those of us who prune, and those that don't. When I top my plants, the two top stems form fast and get immediate light. The other two branches that were instructed to become main stems as well, have to grow out a bit and then up to catch light. Most of the time, the plant handles this quite well on it's own. Then there are times when you have to trim some leaf tips and even remove some leaf and stem entirely, so my new formed cola tip to be can breathe and see the light. I want these potential heavy bud sites to get good light and reach for the stars. If they are hiding behind big shade leaves, they won't grow out and be all the bud they can be. 

I also like to have the bottoms of my plants free of debris and leaves. The under canopy of the plant needs to breathe and if you never clip off the lower stems with the old growth, the plant can't respire as well. The plants look so much better and the airy openness will not attract insects. After writing about this, I want to take pictures of the ladies with their new leaf cuts and show that selective pruning is quite different from hacking up a plant. My goals were to allow the new side shoots to get light at their tops and to clean up the bottom of the main stems, to allow air to f l o w easily around the under canopy.

Look at these pictures carefully and you'll spot trimmed shade leaves that allow the light to penetrate to the new auxins encouraged main stems from topping the plant. Some of the under brush still needs to be removed. I didn't want to remove it all at one go. I mostly took care of up to first node. Next time up, I'll take clones and finish cleaning up to node 2.


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

Serapis i just came in this thread to see what leds can do i didnt want to say anything but since you came in another thread talking shit to me i have to say leds do not produce as much as hps.You need to do more research before you come in someones defense trying to save the day>I spoke with several growers on riu that use led lights and harvested under led lights and hps lights and they say no way leds compare to it when it comes to bud weight.So i did my research looks like you need to do yours.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Sep 18, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> So i did my research looks like you need to do yours.


It looks like he is actually doing great research and showing the ongoing results for the benefit of those of us that (a) are open-minded, (b) are interested, and (c) not complete f$%#wits

I am definitely an interested, openminded follower of this thread.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 18, 2010)

Looks like you are making more enemies Searpis. You may want to be careful with speaking in other threads before you really have any personal experience to draw from. I know you believe in LED, but this is your first grow ever correct? You don't know what LED's can really do or what HPS can do either. That said, LED's are more for small spaces, which you have, that can't or don't want to contend with heat issues that HPS present. Just my 2 cents bro since I have encountered many of the LED "haters". Show them with your grow, that's the best way to prove them wrong. Even then, they will most likely still not be believers and you should just accept that reality.

I am looking forward to see how your flowering goes. I have been looking into getting a larger unit for my grow cab so I hope you have good results!


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

Grumpy Old Dreamer said:


> It looks like he is actually doing great research and showing the ongoing results for the benefit of those of us that (a) are open-minded, (b) are interested, and (c) not complete f$%#wits
> 
> I am definitely an interested, openminded follower of this thread.


 Im not here to hijack and bash like some people call it ill just say this to you and leave it at that.Leds are good for small spaces and heat issues but when it comes to bud weight,bud density hps clearly blows it out the box.It might save you extra on the bill but hps harvest you can make the back in 1 grow.
Also serapis tells me i need to do my research when there is no research that indicates that leds yield more than hps.None on the internet what so ever.
Yeah he might be showing ya guys a thing or 2 but he is not showing me anything i did not see already.
Might i add the fact still remains that leds do not yield more than hps.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 18, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> Im not here to hijack and bash like some people call it ill just say this to you and leave it at that.Leds are good for small spaces and heat issues but when it comes to bud weight,bud density hps clearly blows it out the box.It might save you extra on the bill but hps harvest you can make the back in 1 grow.
> Also serapis tells me i need to do my research when there is no research that indicates that leds yield more than hps.None on the internet what so ever.
> Yeah he might be showing ya guys a thing or 2 but he is not showing me anything i did not see already.
> Might i add the fact still remains that leds do not yield more than hps.


That is not true actually. Used watt basis I have seen Irishboy beat his HPS setups with an LED grow that he did. It was a higher per watt comparison. He also stated that people that were helping him at his trim party stated that they thought it was grown with HPS when they were trimming the LED grown buds. 

The perception is that "90w LED = 400w HPS", I do not follow crackhead rhetoric like that. I feel watts to watts is the best way to compare. However, when you do that, the LED fixtures are much more than the HPS. Each side has pros and cons. Most people just adopt the mentality that "If you are with us, you are against us". Even Searpis has jabbed me about using CFL's in my grow, which paints him in the "LED purist" light.

Can't we all just get along?


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> That is not true actually. Used watt basis I have seen Irishboy beat his HPS setups with an LED grow that he did. It was a higher per watt comparison. He also stated that people that were helping him at his trim party stated that they thought it was grown with HPS when they were trimming the LED grown buds.
> 
> The perception is that "90w LED = 400w HPS", I do not follow crackhead rhetoric like that. I feel watts to watts is the best way to compare. However, when you do that, the LED fixtures are much more than the HPS. Each side has pros and cons. Most people just adopt the mentality that "If you are with us, you are against us". Even Searpis has jabbed me about using CFL's in my grow, which paints him in the "LED purist" light.
> 
> Can't we all just get along?


 Thank you for that. I plan on getting a 90 watt led for vegging as i stated before in a previous thread but then it all came up saying the 90 watt led yields more than a 400 hps and i did not believe that.


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## breakneck (Sep 18, 2010)

I agree 100%.


luckyskindaguy said:


> That is not true actually. Used watt basis I have seen Irishboy beat his HPS setups with an LED grow that he did. It was a higher per watt comparison. He also stated that people that were helping him at his trim party stated that they thought it was grown with HPS when they were trimming the LED grown buds.
> 
> The perception is that "90w LED = 400w HPS", I do not follow crackhead rhetoric like that. I feel watts to watts is the best way to compare. However, when you do that, the LED fixtures are much more than the HPS. Each side has pros and cons. Most people just adopt the mentality that "If you are with us, you are against us". Even Searpis has jabbed me about using CFL's in my grow, which paints him in the "LED purist" light.
> 
> Can't we all just get along?


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## potpimp (Sep 18, 2010)

I would venture to say you could see a 1,000w LED from outer space! I don't think watt for watt there is any comparison.


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## breakneck (Sep 18, 2010)

There is none right now. Argon is the only thing we know about that produces more lumens per watt. LED FTW.


potpimp said:


> I would venture to say you could see a 1,000w LED from outer space! I don't think watt for watt there is any comparison.


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## daviaces (Sep 18, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> Im not here to hijack and bash like some people call it ill just say this to you and leave it at that.Leds are good for small spaces and heat issues but when it comes to bud weight,bud density hps clearly blows it out the box.It might save you extra on the bill but hps harvest you can make the back in 1 grow.
> Also serapis tells me i need to do my research when there is no research that indicates that leds yield more than hps.None on the internet what so ever.
> Yeah he might be showing ya guys a thing or 2 but he is not showing me anything i did not see already.
> Might i add the fact still remains that leds do not yield more than hps.


wyteberry it sure seems like u bash on leds threads , and u might wanna research some more cause u are missing threads with very good results from leds over1g /watt from 1st time led growers 
if u want links pm me i will happy lead u to them 

u seem might wanna be more openminded not just hate all the time


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

daviaces said:


> wyteberry it sure seems like u bash on leds threads , and u might wanna research some more cause u are missing threads with very good results from leds over1g /watt from 1st time led growers
> if u want links pm me i will happy lead u to them
> 
> u seem might wanna be more openminded not just hate all the time


 Like i said i am looking into purchasing a 90 watt led.I did not say they dont have good results what i said was the equivalents 90 watt led =400 watts hps do not yield the same.As i also said i ve been doing research and all led growers i asked about it say the same.Now if you use 400 watts of led to a 400 watt hps then maybe it will have more yield but the equvalent is not the same.

You call asking for proof bashing???
I could care less about the links trust me ive seen enough and asked enough to people using all types of leds and they say the same.
Do you need me to link you to where its said at?


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> How hard headed do you have to be? I'm beginning to think you are just playing the part of the idiot. When you compare LED lights watt for watt with HID lights, the LEDs win every time. I've seen a 90W UFO pull in half the bud of a 400w HID lamp, not bad for only consuming 90W as opposed to 400W.
> 
> The reason you fail to appreciate LEDs in ANY thread, is because you are closed minded. You assume everyone can easily use 400w-1000w lamps in closets and not have heat issues. HERE IT IS FOR YOU PLAIN AND SIMPLE IN ALL CAPS SO YOU CAN FOLLOW..... WHEN COMPARED WATT FOR WATT, LED LIGHTS OUTPRODUCE HID LAMPS/REFLECTORS.
> 
> ...


Now it starts. 
You came in another thread telling me bullshit.When i was telling a guy that he cannot get a half pound from just 1-90 watt led as he claimed.So you brought me in here saying something back.I did not come in here talking about leds until you came to another thread talking shit about me..You are saying the same exact thing i said.400 watts of led compared to a 400 hps yeah i would expect it to out yield it since it cost about double the price.
Now 90 watt led will not pull the weight of a 400 watt hps the equivalent 90 watt led=400 watt hps.Thats my point so what r u talking about willis??


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

To be honest i came in here to see results not hate or bash like you claim so you should have just kept your nose and mouth in your own thread.
So what now you are trying to get led growers to gang up on your defense???lmao


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## Magnificient (Sep 18, 2010)

I like the setup. It looks too expensive to me. I've tried to rep you a number of times Serapis, but something's up there. It always says that I have to spread rep around first. Then after repping 20 other people, I still can't rep you.

Very nice setup. You'd get rep, but you see how it is.


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## daviaces (Sep 18, 2010)

thats better wyteberry quote from above from you -the fact still remains that leds do not yield more than hps
and then in your next post Now if you use 400 watts of led to a 400 watt hps then maybe it will have more yield
looks like u actually have done some research now


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

daviaces said:


> thats better wyteberry quote from above from you -the fact still remains that leds do not yield more than hps
> and then in your next post Now if you use 400 watts of led to a 400 watt hps then maybe it will have more yield
> looks like u actually have done some research now


 I should have stated when i was referring to leds i was talking about the manufacturers claims 90 watt is equivalent to 400 not 400 led for 400 hps.


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## daviaces (Sep 18, 2010)

ah the bs claims of the con/cheap led companys ,well i must agree with you theyre 90w led does not match 400hps
200 to 300w led matches a 400hps(more like 440w draw) is much more realistic


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

got 107 grams of 1 and 120 of the other. using only 1 90w...this is a quote from the op.107+120=227 a half pound equals 224 so how is he not claiming he gets a half pound everytime???
That is what the op stated and when i asked to show this he had no proof.
So how he did not make such a claim when this is him stating he gets a half pound.Again what are you talking about willis.
Keep it civilized all the name calling is not called for.Motherfucker this and dumb ass that.lets not go there.You jumped in a thread that you clearly dont know what was going on because if you read you would know what the op stated and you would not be saying shit.


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## daviaces (Sep 18, 2010)

good luck with your grow here shame thread gets brought to this flame war nonsense


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## Serapis (Sep 18, 2010)

daviaces said:


> good luck with your grow here shame thread gets brought to this flame war nonsense


That is Whyteberry's intention on EVERY LED thread he enters.


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

daviaces said:


> ah the bs claims of the con/cheap led companys ,well i must agree with you theyre 90w led does not match 400hps
> 200 to 300w led matches a 400hps(more like 440w draw) is much more realistic


Thank you watch serapis might come at you now..LMAo


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> And then you compared him to the guy that claimed a half pound. You are a moron. What does he have to prove to you? He grew, he posted his results. You claim any good results are BS and they need to prove to you the weight. WTF are you? Nothing but a hater of LEDs.... go BS about and praise your HIDs elsewhere.


 What results did he post?Not half pound results.Thats the claim thats what im looking for.
Thats exactly why you should have kept your mouth in your own thread.Because the op im talking about is the same guy who stated he got a half pound from a 90 watt led like i said you dont even know what you are talking about willis


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## daviaces (Sep 18, 2010)

please wyteberry just stop ,start another thread or something this is the guys grow journal and your wrecking it 
sorry to post again about non grow journal related item but this is getting daft


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## Pure (Sep 18, 2010)

Pretty fiesty in here!!! Hmmmm I like fiesty , gets the creative juices flowin

Well i'm running a 90W Illuminator UFO. not just your average ebay UFO mind you. ANd as i did quite a bit of "Pfft" well a little bit of reading prior to my purchase. Apparently there is also another benefit had from growing with LED's "higher Resin content"! resin production has *purportedly* higher when using LED's, and just on a side note Illuminator LED's also have UV LED's in their pattern, UV lights being known for raising resin production. Again this is all things I've read. My first grow was under a 400W HID Early Girl feminized. This grow is Shining Silver Haze "femmed" started under x2 15w Flora Glo's then moved under the Illuminator 90W UFO. I'm sure there is someone else out there growing a silver haze, under a different lighting system than a 90W UFO as I am. If anyone knows of someone or has some silver haze seeds and is willing to do a push under lights, then lets get a thread going so we can compare actual results. I'd be willing to buy another type of seed in order to make the comparison grow with someone. It would be nice if that person is using Adv nutrient nutes as I am. but we cant get all the variables perfect so ....This comparison may work with any strain close in characteristics to shining silver haze. If no takers then maybe I'll dust off the old 400W and see what damage I can do to my electricity bill on my next grow!!


Ciao,
Pure...


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## Pure (Sep 18, 2010)

+ Rep Serapis,

Shit just for standing your ground!! Oh Rah!!!!

WhtBrry, it seems your at least relaxing your posture and not taking such a hardliner approach! Hell + Rep for you too!!

But both of you gotta remember, dudes, were tokers not fighters. Especially amongst ourselves! Screw the anger, we all have resources to some degree so lets work together and and do some Mythbuster like production, for future MJ growing generations.. Sounds good no?


Ciao,
Pure...


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 18, 2010)

Pure said:


> + Rep Serapis,
> 
> Shit just for standing your ground!! Oh Rah!!!!
> 
> ...


Thats all i want.Results to these claims instead of people saying they are better than hps.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 18, 2010)

The sad thing is, I actually am gonna have to side with wyteberry on this one. I have personally come across threads that Serapis has made inappropriate comments in. It is one thing to say what you want in a thread you start, but another to make claims in someone else's thread. I am going to name Serapis "Defender of all LED threads" since that is how he seems to come off. 

I actually have followed this thread with interest. However, I have now realized that Serapis is acting like a child and I for one am not going to reward him with any more positivity.

Serapis, you are showing as much, if not more, of the attitude in which you are complaining about. You just happen to be on the LED side. Look in the mirror dude. Grow up and then you might gain more respect from people who are on here to learn and not just point fingers. Best of luck to everyone


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## daviaces (Sep 18, 2010)

Pure said:


> + Rep Serapis,
> 
> Shit just for standing your ground!! Oh Rah!!!!
> 
> ...


great reply your the one who should get the rep lol


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## breakneck (Sep 19, 2010)

Great post. +REP


Pure said:


> + Rep Serapis,
> 
> Shit just for standing your ground!! Oh Rah!!!!
> 
> ...


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## assasinofyouth420 (Sep 19, 2010)

Nice lookin op. If you dont mind me asking, how much does a quality LED setup like that cost?


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## Serapis (Sep 19, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> The sad thing is, I actually am gonna have to side with wyteberry on this one. I have personally come across threads that Serapis has made inappropriate comments in. It is one thing to say what you want in a thread you start, but another to make claims in someone else's thread. I am going to name Serapis "Defender of all LED threads" since that is how he seems to come off.
> 
> I actually have followed this thread with interest. However, I have now realized that Serapis is acting like a child and I for one am not going to reward him with any more positivity.
> 
> Serapis, you are showing as much, if not more, of the attitude in which you are complaining about. You just happen to be on the LED side. Look in the mirror dude. Grow up and then you might gain more respect from people who are on here to learn and not just point fingers. Best of luck to everyone


Any claims I have made have been backed up with other grow journals. In fact, the only claim I have made is that LED lights will out perform HID lamps every time! Granted I'm not talking about BS panels, I'm talking real lighting, watt for watt. Whyteberry knows very well what I'm referring to, as I've posted about a 205W Hydro-Grow Infiltrator that grew 1 gram of tight bud per watt used, while an hid lamp pulled 0.69 grams per watt.

To the person that doesn't take into account that the 400w was nearly double the power of the LED light, they declare the hid lamp the winner cause it grew about 60 grams more than the LED, however, the LED used HALF of the ELECTRICITY. Why is it that those that bash LEDs never take that into account or admit it out loud?

Luckyskindofguy, please cite any inappropriate claims I have made. And also consider this, I'm not in EVERY LED post in RIU, but Whiteberry and his fellow LED basher Juicebox sure as hell are. If you don't want to follow this thread, please feel free to adjust your scribe settings. I stated from the beginning this was a simple grow with 100% LEDs and that I was not making any claims nor was I going to debate the pros and con vs HID lighting.

That was not the purpose of this thread. However it has been made so by an inconsiderate poster that refuses to acknowledge a simple watt for watt comparison, that was actually in another thread entirely. Another poster stated his plants produced this and that, and Whyteberry has the audacity to call him a liar and say prove it. The guy has nothing to prove, he was just reporting in his fucking journal. So yes, I'm fed up of Whyteberry and Juicebox, to VERY vocal anti-LED posters....

I realize LEDs don't produce the same as HID when comparisons are made such as this 200W LED is comparable to a 400W hid. However, if you actually compare them fairly for wattage used, the LED lights smoke hid any day. I stand by that and there is plenty of proof of it online in many grow journals and comparison grow posts.

If I'm childish because of my beliefs, then so be it. I'm not going to let two guys consistently hit every LED thread and trash the lights without saying something. If that makes me childish, then fuck it. If you don't like my attitude, hit the fucking door. You don't have to post your leaving the thread, just leave it.


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## Pure (Sep 19, 2010)

daviaces said:


> great reply your the one who should get the rep lol


Whoa Thx my brother from another mother for Greenpeace  !,

Good looking out Dude. I'm of the mindset that if we get any group of troubled people together around some "Nacho Cheese" Doritos, some nice sticky "Sativa" (Sativa so that everyone can stay awake)  , and pfft anything to drink except alcohol! ALL issues, and I do mean ALL can be resolved!  Ye haw!!

Ummm I'm not so sure my method will work in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Yemen, etc... Those are some deeply rooted issues, it might take a bit more than Doritos to dislodge those...


Ciao,
Pure...


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## bbighead (Sep 19, 2010)

can't wait to see finished product


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## Serapis (Sep 19, 2010)

Well said Breakneck....but why does EVERY LED thread end up like this? Haters can't leave em alone. 

*Seedlings:

*_The seedlings are about 14 days old and have been under Flouros for 20/4. They have graduated and are now in their 8" pots. The seedlings had roots that had reached bottom of 9 oz Solo and were wrapping around looking for room to grow. They have only been fed twice by water and twice by foliar.

Each 8" pot has about 1" on bottom of hydroton to keep soil from draining out of holes in bottom. After plant was transplanted, it was watered in with 750ml of water mixed with a 1/4 cap of SuperThrive rooting hormone. 

Here are pics of the new family now under LEDs.


_


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 19, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Any claims I have made have been backed up with other grow journals. In fact, the only claim I have made is that LED lights will out perform HID lamps every time! Granted I'm not talking about BS panels, I'm talking real lighting, watt for watt. Whyteberry knows very well what I'm referring to, as I've posted about a 205W Hydro-Grow Infiltrator that grew 1 gram of tight bud per watt used, while an hid lamp pulled 0.69 grams per watt.
> 
> To the person that doesn't take into account that the 400w was nearly double the power of the LED light, they declare the hid lamp the winner cause it grew about 60 grams more than the LED, however, the LED used HALF of the ELECTRICITY. Why is it that those that bash LEDs never take that into account or admit it out loud?
> 
> ...


I am not going to go through all of your 1700+ and counting responses to find all that support my claim. All I feel I need to supply is this thread: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/367788-newer-led-technology-facts-not-14.html

This is the root of the current arguement in this thread I believe. In post #17 the OP makes a claim that he would expect a 90w LED to get a half a pound based on the 90% inefficency of a 400w. He assumes, not proves, that IF a 400w HID can grow a half pound then a 90w LED could too based on it being more efficient.

You came into this post on page 13 and "Enter defender"! You didn't even read the whole thread, at least closely enough, because you post YOURSELF that you missed one of the key arguements in post #135. This of course was AFTER you made the claim that the OP made no such claim. (see post #17 again if you missed it)

The bottom line is this: Google does not an expert make! You have never done your own grow Searpis. You have read of what others have done and are making claims, in some cases, as if they were your findings first hand. You get very defensive when anyone challanges you. You come off as a very immature know-it-all. You are trying to catch flies with vinegar. Take up your quest of defending LED's if you wish, but do so at what could be your own peril.

I don't have to unsub your thread because I care about the information you MIGHT prove that could be helpful to my own growing experience.

You can make post without using "colorful" language. That just makes you look more defensive and weak in your arguement and some people are going to try and exploit that. Prove them wrong with your grow results. As I told you before, you have to be patient. That goes with overtaking a dominant technology as well. There were many that resisted HPS over CFL.

I am on the side of knowledge. I, however, am not emotional about it. I have had my share of LED bashers in my grow threads and just asked them to positively contribute to eveyone's knowledge of move on. They didn't get the reaction they wanted so they left. Just keep on task and you will gain respect, trust me.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 19, 2010)

Another thing I might point out is that you reference premium LED units in your comparisons. Not all LED's are created equal. Hydro Grow LED PENETRATOR (not Infiltrator as you have posted) is one that I have been watching myself. They use the 60 deg lens LED's which, as far as I have seen, is the only company that does that in their whole line of fixtures. Hyproponics Hut has a 90w that has 60's in it, but their larger units go up to 90 deg as well as a mix of 1w and 3w diodes.

This does not mean all LED's will produce the same yields, it just means that few HAVE beaten HPS watt for watt or in a per watt comparison. 

All of this falls to marketing. You yourself felt a little duped after buying your lights because you felt it was misleading. This of course was after you had " lurked and studied for nearly 2 years and finally made the move" into growing yourself.

On the flipside, there are different quality levels of HPS bulbs to choose from as well.


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## wyteberrywidow (Sep 19, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Any claims I have made have been backed up with other grow journals. In fact, the only claim I have made is that LED lights will out perform HID lamps every time! Granted I'm not talking about BS panels, I'm talking real lighting, watt for watt. Whyteberry knows very well what I'm referring to, as I've posted about a 205W Hydro-Grow Infiltrator that grew 1 gram of tight bud per watt used, while an hid lamp pulled 0.69 grams per watt.
> 
> To the person that doesn't take into account that the 400w was nearly double the power of the LED light, they declare the hid lamp the winner cause it grew about 60 grams more than the LED, however, the LED used HALF of the ELECTRICITY. Why is it that those that bash LEDs never take that into account or admit it out loud?
> 
> ...


 I call you childish because after the situation was done you come in and quote me.How many grows of hid has been 1 gram per watt?How many are over 1 gram per watt?Alot. Hobbes is doing a grow where he gets 2.5 grams a watt.He done it already not trying to do it.
Because i ask for proof im bashing a led thread.
The whole fact that started this was you came into someone else thread and started talking shit you did not come with proof at all then you quote me so thats the start of a debate if you dont want one why jump in someone elses business.


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 19, 2010)

Is it true that LED grows similar to CFLs?


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## Pure (Sep 19, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> Is it true that LED grows similar to CFLs?


Dude Three words!

Run For Cover!!!

LOL 

Just Kidding, I'm sure someone from this thread will be HAPPY to "Help" you!! But from what I'm reading LED's beat CFl's hands down and I am only basing that on the fact that noone compares LED's to CFL's only to HiD's so based on that i'd assume there was really no comparison or there would be CFLr's attacking Serapis, and he'd/we'd be swinging back at another group of growers...

I'm gonna search the forum now just to be sure I'm not talking out of me arse!


Ciao,
Pure...


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## Magnificient (Sep 20, 2010)

daviaces said:


> good luck with your grow here shame thread gets brought to this flame war nonsense


I never could understand people dropping in to make neg remarks. I just go on to the next string.


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 21, 2010)

I think my CFL grow is going to produce a higher yield than this grow, and I'm barely more wattage than this. But, I do have a lot of heat to remove. Do you have any suggestions?


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## Serapis (Sep 21, 2010)

Pure said:


> Dude Three words!
> 
> Run For Cover!!!
> 
> ...


Please don't feed the troll.....


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## Pure (Sep 21, 2010)

Hmm,

I didn't know dude had "History"! Maybe if we feed him after midnight he'll turn into a LED grower..  Doesn't matter I'm invested in my LED push and come Hell or high water I'm gonna finish this one on PURE LED power. For 1 Sq Meter i think I have the perfect test setup for a 90Watter, lets see what weight i pull out of this Haze grow...


Ciao,
Pure...


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## potpimp (Sep 21, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Absolutely!.... I have been trying to suggest that you carry your ass out of this thread because you have nothing to offer but grief and only smart ass comments, like this one. I have yet to see a single picture posted by you of any sort of grow. Feel free to just shut the fuck up.


LMAO!!! I saw this one coming. I swear, as soon as I read the "have any suggestions?" I knew basically what you were going to say. OMG, that's funny. Did I mention that I grew a plant that yielded 50 lbs using nothing but a small photo of the sun?


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 21, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Absolutely!.... I have been trying to suggest that you carry your ass out of this thread because you have nothing to offer but grief and only smart ass comments, like this one. I have yet to see a single picture posted by you of any sort of grow. Feel free to just shut the fuck up.


So... who's the troll? I was asking you a legitimate question. And if you looked at my grow journal, you would see videos... not photos. So, please have a look, and then flame me? I'm a novice. I know nothing about growing and I'm still trying to learn. I hope you can keep your tissues stocked, because you're obviously going to need plenty with all the fucking crying you do. Grow a sack and quit whining like a fucking kid.


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## tranquility (Sep 21, 2010)

potpimp said:


> Did I mention that I grew a plant that yielded 50 lbs using nothing but a small photo of the sun?


haha ...no you didn't mention that probably because you just made it up. if thats a typo and it 5 pounds, then i can belive it lol.


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## Serapis (Sep 21, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> So... who's the troll? I was asking you a legitimate question. And if you looked at my grow journal, you would see videos... not photos. So, please have a look, and then flame me? I'm a novice. I know nothing about growing and I'm still trying to learn. I hope you can keep your tissues stocked, because you're obviously going to need plenty with all the fucking crying you do. Grow a sack and quit whining like a fucking kid.


Your claiming your CFL lamps are going to outproduce my grow and then ask about heat from your bulbs.... It is quite plain to see that you are being an ass. Look at your last several posts in this thread, all attempts at being an ass and offering absolutely nothing to the thread. Feel free to move on and do your own thing in your own thread.


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## TheJointProject (Sep 22, 2010)

Hey screw that asshole! Got any new pics serapis?


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## Serapis (Sep 22, 2010)

TheJointProject said:


> Hey screw that asshole! Got any new pics serapis?


Hey there TJP, I'll have some new pics this weekend. Plants 1-5 are looking good, a few are dropping their bottom shade leaves but I'm not concerned, it's nature. The tops are looking lovely and are close to wanting to flower. The seedlings are already working on nodes 5-6. They are growing very fast and are near the time for their topping. As soon as the tops are long enough to clone, I'll be topping them.

New Pictures on Sunday at latest.


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 22, 2010)

You're awesome. I love this thread.


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## 420n00b (Sep 23, 2010)

Love the updates, glad to see they're doing well. I'm looking forward to not only the results under LED but also the quality of Nirvana's seeds as theres been some questions of the quality of their genetics on this site lately. I also purchased some bubblicious from them. 

Looking forward to those new pics Serapis.


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## potpimp (Sep 24, 2010)

420n00b said:


> I'm looking forward to not only the results under LED but also the quality of Nirvana's seeds as theres been some questions of the quality of their genetics on this site lately. I also purchased some bubblicious from them.


You don't have anything to worry about; Nirvana has good genetics, regardless of what anyone says. I have bought several strains from them and all of them have been excellent. I just smoked my first bowl last night of some Hindu Kush from Nirvana that I grew; it was very good.

Looking forward to the new pix!


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## Serapis (Sep 24, 2010)

*updates:

*The plants numbered 1-5 are now in day two of 12/12. The tops are really starting to stretch and I thought if I wait too much longer.... Plants 1,2 have dropped several lower leaves. The rest of the plant looks great on them. I'm thinking it is a natural response to lighting as the tops spread apart and take up the light. (these were topped and have 4 main stems each).

I fed them twice in a row, thinking they needed N but now I have a few small tips curling, so it is fine for food. I'm assuming it;s natural as the rest of plant looks gorgeous. I only have to keep these alive for 2 more months! Yay... lol

*Seedlings:

*It's getting hard to call them seedlings anymore. They are about 18 days old now and are really filling in nice sideways. So you have an idea of scale, those pots are 6.25" square and 8.25" deep. The plants are loving the soil. I placed a small scoop of worm castings under each transfer and it is really showing. The SuperThrive got through transplanting with flying colors. The plants NEVER showed ANY sign of shock. I swear by ST for germinating and transplanting seedlings. Just look at the pics! Great Nirvana genetics! Only one runt, the rest are all about equal in progress. These will be slow vegged under Flouros and possibly topped twice. First topping is coming up soon.


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## breakneck (Sep 24, 2010)

Everything's looking good!


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## 420n00b (Sep 24, 2010)

Yeah, those are looking pretty damn sweet.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 24, 2010)

The ones in flower look nice and bushy!


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## Retris (Sep 25, 2010)

Hell yea, Serapis! How high are you thinking about putting the scrog?


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## Cru3l (Sep 25, 2010)

LED look good. 

I think soon alot more people will try them out.

Check out my Youtube channel!
[youtube]0cW4HAa4j8w[/youtube]


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## TheJointProject (Sep 25, 2010)

YES!!! Now we really get to see what they can do! Lookin great man!


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## Serapis (Sep 29, 2010)

*Topped Seedlings:*

They are about 21 days old and looking real healthy. They have been under 6500k cool White Plus T8's plus I used worm castings in the soil. When I lifted one of the 8.25" deep pots out of the tray of hydroton so I could top it, I noticed about 4 strands of roots that had made their way out the drain holes and it was attaching itself to the hydroton. I clipped the roots and they were about 3-4" in length. I was surprised to see that so soon.These plants may be ready to start flowering in 2 weeks.

I cloned the tops. Yeah, we are going to try that again. This time I have it on calendar, I know what to look for, and I'll only pop the top to the dome twice a day for fresh air and to replace moisture or to spray the leaves. I'm hoping for a 100% rate. I cut above the 3rd node because cutting above the 2nd seemed like I was taking too much off. I will more than likely LST the new side shoots. If I get 100% rooting of clones, I'll get them going on veg and move plants 6-10 into flower. That'll have me at two harvests about 4-5 weeks apart. If clones regen quick enough, I can keep up a perpetual harvest, which is my goal. I always want plants in flower, and to have two groups, about 4 weeks apart.

*Plants 1-5:*

The original plants are now 6 days on 12/12. 3 of the plants are showing what appear to be the beginings of pistils which is sooner than I expected. I figured 10 days minimum to see sex. I have my camera on macro and will get some pistil shots this weekend for documentation purposes.

*check out the spread on these 3 week old plants!*

They were started in 9oz solo cups as seeds in an organic seed starter mix. about 13 days after sprouting, they were transfered to these square 6.25" x 6.25" x 8.25" pots. The growth rate has been phenomenal! They are now in MG organic choice soil with worm castings mixed in at root ball level. I use Superthrive on these ladies at most waterings early on, as it is all they get for the first two weeks. I then gingerly introduced them to Peters Plant Food 10-15-10 about 10 days ago, when two of them had yellowing starter leaves while they were in the seed starter.

These plants were foliar feed almost daily after their 8th day. To those that say this inhibits root growth, please explain my roots.  They are growing out the bottoms in less than 10 days after transplant. They also NEVER showed any stress from being potted up. (Thanks SuperThrive). It has allowed the growth to go at about 1/4" a day. The plants were about 6-7" before being topped. The tallest now is about 4.5" I have to LST the new side shoots. I didn't last time and some of the tips got stagnated and are hiding behind fan leaves. Most of the plants have 4 distinct tops, a couple are growing more than that.


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 29, 2010)

Serapis, I know you don't believe me, but I like this. However, it seems like you're going to have an exceptionally low yield for such a high investment. I suppose it's really more of a preference.


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## Serapis (Sep 29, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> Serapis, I know you don't believe me, but I like this. However, it seems like you're going to have an exceptionally low yield for such a high investment. I suppose it's really more of a preference.


This coming from a guy that is growing with light bulbs in a bathroom vanity strip? If you are so sure there is nothing to see here, why aren't you moving along and investing your time more wisely? Rather than being a troll, why not use your great knowledge to help others? There are plenty of people here begging for your feedback in other threads. Go pat em on the back....

futhermore, if you had any sense, you would realize that I'm set up to have a perpetual harvest. My investment will keep yielding, not just one time. 

Feel free to take your LED bashing self to your FL threads.... lol, you have some nerve to talk of yield.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 29, 2010)

I say we hold off the yield comments until they ACTually start flowering, geez. Keep it up Serapis! Hope you have some good mothers to choose from!


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## umm....chris (Sep 29, 2010)

hey serapis this is the nicest all led grow i have ever seen


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 29, 2010)

You are planning on getting the same plant to flower more than once? Surely, that's not what your interpretation of a perpetual grow is.


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## WWShadow (Sep 29, 2010)

wow, they are only 3wks old.. I thought it had been longer than that musta been all the troll fighting that made it seem so long.
the plants are looking very nice! How long before you flip them? sorry if you already answered that.


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 29, 2010)

They're very small for 3 weeks. WTF are you talking about?


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 29, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> You are planning on getting the same plant to flower more than once? Surely, that's not what your interpretation of a perpetual grow is.


You are just unreal. This has to be an act. Is really anyone really as clueless as you are?


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 29, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> They're very small for 3 weeks. WTF are you talking about?


Please post your plants 3 weeks from seed...... not clones, seed.


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## Cru3l (Sep 29, 2010)

Mines are 3 weeks from seed, and I will start flowering soon.

Check my video.

[youtube]0cW4HAa4j8w[/youtube]


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## mr2shim (Sep 30, 2010)

IMO Asking yield questions when the man is only 3 weeks in is kind of stupid... Too many variables come into play to give a somewhat valid yield so soon. I think his plants look great for 3 weeks, but what do I know.


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## luckyskindaguy (Sep 30, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> You cut three nodes down to top them? Why? And yes, I am referring to seed. My plants are far larger than that at 3 weeks. And I have spent a fraction of what you have. I'm sure your room is "prettier" than mine, and that's all good. I like your setup, but I just don't get the reasoning behind it. Dude, look- I understand you hate me. I get that, I really do. You hate anyone who questions LED grows. You seem like you're a pretty smart guy, and you've obviously managed to invest far more money in your grow than I have, and kudos for that. I will step back and quit questioning your grow. I'm honestly just wondering how much you're going to yield out of this. Dude, I don't know what I have to do to convince you that I love you. I just hope you understand that I only continue to post here because you obviously are a very passionate person. I like passion. It drives us to write dramatic shit, and people lick our tears. I think you could be a cool person, but ultimately, I'm relatively certain that your'e an uptight and highly arrogant prick.
> 
> I'm a troll.


I think one of the problems is you post before you really think about what you are typing. Your responses seem unintelligible because of that. To show your love, just sit back and watch the grow.

If you had read the grow, you would know why he cut the tops off. It is his preferred method to clone.

Peace all!


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## GreenNerd420 (Sep 30, 2010)

Plants enjoy enzymes.


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## Serapis (Sep 30, 2010)

I don't think I prefer to clone tops, I just am right now because I can. Once I've established a mother, and I think I have two candidates, I'll clone from it after it vegges for awhile.

Nerdy, if you want to question other's grows, try it in the grow journal discussion forum.


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## Katatawnic (Oct 2, 2010)

Though lurking, been following your grow. However, I got pretty sick and was MIA for a while, and missed a lot in between. Would you be so kind as to give a brief summary of dos and don'ts that you've learned for LED growing?

I'm about to get LEDs myself, I'm undecided as to which I should start with (I'll be getting more next month, starting slow for now due to finances).

At first I was more drawn to one like *this*, but it doesn't appear to have power cords and I am FAR from an electrician.  Then there is *this one*, and after examining them closer this morning, it appears that the panel has more lights and square footage coverage than the other. But I don't know Jack Schmitt about LEDs yet.

Again, I'll be getting more next month, and possibly more the month after that. So I'm wondering which type would be better to start my LED endeavor.

Thanks in advance for any advice you have to offer.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 2, 2010)

I wouldn't get either of those lights if I were you. You'd be better off with CFL's. How much are you looking to spend on just your light fixture setup?


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 2, 2010)

If you are buying LED's you should not buy the cheap Chinese shit that uses generic traffic light LEDs as you will be disappointed and end up forever hating LED's.


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## Serapis (Oct 3, 2010)

They are right, I cannot recommend either of those. The 13W panels might be ok as supplemental ligting, they sure as hell shouldn't be your only lighting. If you are serious about LED ligting, you have to have some cash, usually at least $500 for some of the good models. A single UFO would cost you about $150 and could be used to raise 1-3 plants depending on size. 

The LED diodes in the lights you are looking at are shit. I recommend lights that have 1w diodes. Stay away from anything less than 120W unless using a couple of UFOs.


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## Serapis (Oct 3, 2010)

*Pictorial Update*

This update is mostly about the pics. 5 plants in flowering on day 11 of 12/12 and showing pistils. 5 plants in nursery vegging after being topped. 5 clones (the tops) in a propagator. 

Not much to tell. Any questions, please ask.


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## 420n00b (Oct 3, 2010)

Hey Serapis, have you had any experience with the HTG 90w UFOs? I'm thinking of getting one as supplemental lighting along with my 400w HID setup. Wondering if it would be overkill or maybe even barely noticeable what with the HID and all.


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## Serapis (Oct 3, 2010)

Any additional light in the proper spectrum will be beneficial. Keep in mind the lightprint (like footprint) of those lights is small. At most you can do 3 plants under one. I started to buy 4 UFO's for my grow, but thought the overhead 120's had better coverage. You may have to mount the UFO at an angle and place it just lower than the HID lamp. Make sure that ANY LED lamp you buy has 1w diodes and is a tri or quad band light. Let us know what you decide to do. The UFO can also be used alone to veg if you wish. I'm tempted to use FL's in my flower as supplement, but this first LED grow will be 100% just so I can see for myself what they are capable of. I have seen several good grows that hit 1 gram per watt on two plant grows. We'll know in about 8 more weeks how mine did. The next batch are already vegging.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 3, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Any additional light in the proper spectrum will be beneficial. Keep in mind the lightprint (like footprint) of those lights is small. At most you can do 3 plants under one. I started to buy 4 UFO's for my grow, but thought the overhead 120's had better coverage. You may have to mount the UFO at an angle and place it just lower than the HID lamp. Make sure that ANY LED lamp you buy has 1w diodes and is a tri or quad band light. Let us know what you decide to do. The UFO can also be used alone to veg if you wish. I'm tempted to use FL's in my flower as supplement, but this first LED grow will be 100% just so I can see for myself what they are capable of. I have seen several good grows that hit 1 gram per watt on two plant grows. We'll know in about 8 more weeks how mine did. The next batch are already vegging.


I'll do what you did to me....." Supplimental lighting " lol, j/k with ya


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## Katatawnic (Oct 3, 2010)

Serapis said:


> They are right, I cannot recommend either of those. The 13W panels might be ok as supplemental ligting, they sure as hell shouldn't be your only lighting. If you are serious about LED ligting, you have to have some cash, usually at least $500 for some of the good models. A single UFO would cost you about $150 and could be used to raise 1-3 plants depending on size.
> 
> The LED diodes in the lights you are looking at are shit. I recommend lights that have 1w diodes. Stay away from anything less than 120W unless using a couple of UFOs.


Thank you, Serapis. I'll just stick with my T5s for now then. They work wonderfully, and I've had nothing but good luck and results with them. I just thought I'd go with LEDs for lower temps and wattage, but this would be an investment I absolutely cannot afford, and with the size of my grow, I'd end up using just as many watts as I am now; so there goes my goal to lower my electric bill by even $10.  To clarify, I was going to get one or two at a time, to supplement my T5s and get more in increments as time/money allotted till I could replace my T5s altogether; probably one more purchase a month.

I can replace all of my current T5 bulbs for $40, plus get a new T5 set for my veg area for $149 (which I will do this month instead of getting LEDs). BTW, they are the same brand I've currently got, so I won't need to worry about reduced quality. So that's where I'll remain for now... stick with what I know, as well as what I can afford. 

I am still very interested in LEDs for future endeavors, but that'll just have to wait till finances improve exponentially. BTW, your plants look very healthy and gorgeous and vibrant. Your GJ is what made me decide to take the LED leap. That'll just have to wait a while, though. I wanted to bring down my electric bill (not that T5s suck up that much power, but still more than LEDs do; at least the ones I've been looking at anyway), but I'm not crazy enough to sacrifice yield for a few dollars a month in utilities. 

Thanks again, Serapis... you just saved me a ton of money and migraines. 


*EDIT:* GGGGRRRRR... I've gotta spread some more love around before I can rep you.  Consider this a +rep!


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 4, 2010)

Did your research cover the Kessil h150 LED light ... This may be worth watching for an insight into one type of LED technology.


[youtube]Mu8qZL5Wp4s[/youtube]


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 4, 2010)

Holy Crap! $300 for a 36w unit? That's gonna be a hard sell. Great video though


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 4, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Holy Crap! $300 for a 36w unit? That's gonna be a hard sell. Great video though


It's really a finesse thing.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 4, 2010)

420n00b said:


> Hey Serapis, have you had any experience with the HTG 90w UFOs? I'm thinking of getting one as supplemental lighting along with my 400w HID setup. Wondering if it would be overkill or maybe even barely noticeable what with the HID and all.


Would it be possible for you to post some videos of your room? I would love to actually see it on film. For some reason, it seems like video gives a better perspective of the room's setup. If not, I understand.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 4, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Holy Crap! $300 for a 36w unit? That's gonna be a hard sell. Great video though


Yea, it is a bit on the expensive side although you can get them for around $250.00. 
They don't have a huge footprint (about 2 foot dia at optimum height) but they are supposed to have great light penetration and the light is all focussed into a small area and none is wasted.
As these have been developed specifically for the horticulture market, and are not generic LED's that have a million uses, they should be exactly what the plants need to grow.
I have a feeling that as the costs of electricity continue to soar, LED's will become more advanced and start to replace the old technology.

Coincidentally, my grow space will allow roughly a 2 foot diameter scrog and by keeping this type of light at the optimum height I should be able to get maximum benefit from every photon of light, with a few satelite CFL's to illuminate the edges of the grow (if needed). I bought one of the Magenta H150 lights to try it out.

If I run my grow without any supplementary CFL side lighting, I will be growing using just 34W of power - in fact I might just do that and see what my yield per watt turns out to be - could be interesting.


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## 420n00b (Oct 4, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> Would it be possible for you to post some videos of your room? I would love to actually see it on film. For some reason, it seems like video gives a better perspective of the room's setup. If not, I understand.


No video but you can see some basic pics via my sig. If you have replies please do so in my grow journal assuming your comments are helpful and/or constructive.


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## Serapis (Oct 4, 2010)

G.O.D. , if you do decide to do that, please link up a grow journal URL. I'd be interested in following it through.

ps... My ladies are starting to stink a bit. Venting outside now and air proofed my grow room door. Waitin on ONA linen to get here, got both gel and liquid to reconstitute gel. Gonna be smelling like sheets in here soon. April fresh. lol...


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 4, 2010)

Serapis said:


> G.O.D. , if you do decide to do that, please link up a grow journal URL. I'd be interested in following it through.


Hopefully my Red Dragon plant will be under the scrog screen in about 7 days, then probably another 7 days before I fire up the LED, remove the CFL's (start a new veg chamber) and switch to 12/12.

It was by following your LED grow that I became interested in LED's but the stuff that is readily available in Australia is the totally rubbish eBay/Chinese stop light panels and UFO's.

The more research I did the more I didn't want to waste my money on rubbish.

The Kessil H150 is expensive, it is also cutting edge technology and perfectly suits my grow space.

I just repotted my plant last night, I have the H150, my SCROG screen is ready to be attached to the pot - all I am waiting for is more growth ... and I really can't wait to fire up the "energy beam" and see what it does.
There are plenty of youtube vids of what they do to tomato plants - amazing growth, but I haven't found a single youtube vid of cannabis under a Kessil light.

The link to the grow is in my sig ... stay tuned, I think it will start to get interesting in a couple of weeks.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 4, 2010)

Serapis said:


> G.O.D. , if you do decide to do that, please link up a grow journal URL. I'd be interested in following it through.
> 
> ps... My ladies are starting to stink a bit. Venting outside now and air proofed my grow room door. Waitin on ONA linen to get here, got both gel and liquid to reconstitute gel. Gonna be smelling like sheets in here soon. April fresh. lol...


Hey Serapis,

How tall are the ones you have in flower? They look like they are about 10-12" range, is that right?

I did my final nute change before flush as well as posted new pics of the seedlings from the bagseed I got out of the purple strain. Come check it out if you haven't recently 

I flush in 8 and cut in 12!


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## tranquility (Oct 4, 2010)

ayyy serapis...your grow is already looking fucking dank and they haven't even budded yet. you got some nice think stems...i think ur gonna get a nice yeild
peace


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## 1freezy (Oct 5, 2010)

Serapis your set up is great, your dedication is there, & you stand up for what you believe! Awsome + rep! 

I neither agree or disagree with anybody but I've read at least 100 LED grows from different sites and never saw any decent flowering, an most people didn't finish with LED or finish at all. That being said I think you will and wish you luck! 

I found some resistance to opinions about water cooled and then got my own fresca sol and said [email protected]&$ the haters, had a nice grow.

GOD I would love to see something also! I've been reading about KESSIL for about 6 months and hope they will bring great flowering to LED. I saw where they compare 6 of the H150 s to a singe 1000 watt. 

Sorry for rambling it's my ADD Serapis now let's see some flower power!

Peace


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 5, 2010)

420n00b said:


> No video but you can see some basic pics via my sig. If you have replies please do so in my grow journal assuming your comments are helpful and/or constructive.


I wasn't talking to you. But thx.


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## 420n00b (Oct 5, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> I wasn't talking to you. But thx.


Then why quote me? My god you're useless.

Oh and Serapis, thanks for the info about the UFO LED. I'm scouring the ebay store for HTG and looking for a deal.


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## Magnificient (Oct 5, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> I think one of the problems is you post before you really think about what you are typing. Your responses seem unintelligible because of that. To show your love, just sit back and watch the grow.
> 
> If you had read the grow, you would know why he cut the tops off. It is his preferred method to clone.
> 
> Peace all!


Great response. You get rep.


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## potpimp (Oct 5, 2010)

ONA is gonna make your place "smell like sheet"?? LOL. Looking good bro!! Happy time is just around the corner.


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## Serapis (Oct 5, 2010)

potpimp said:


> ONA is gonna make your place "smell like sheet"?? LOL. Looking good bro!! Happy time is just around the corner.


About 6 more weeks.....


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 5, 2010)

Serapis said:


> About 6 more weeks.....


You gonna set a firm date for harvest or just wait until they are "ready"? Not sure, but I think the bubblelicious strain is about a 9 week indorr flowering. That sound like what you have heard?


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## Magnificient (Oct 5, 2010)

potpimp said:


> ONA is gonna make your place "smell like sheet"?? LOL. Looking good bro!! Happy time is just around the corner.


I couldn't get enough odor control from ona. I finally fixed the odors with an ozone generator. I wish I had gone straight to ozone generators rather than wasting money on ona, carbon, ionizers, and sprays.


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## Katatawnic (Oct 5, 2010)

Ozone generators are THE way to go!


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 5, 2010)

Magnificient said:


> I couldn't get enough odor control from ona. I finally fixed the odors with an ozone generator. I wish I had gone straight to ozone generators rather than wasting money on ona, carbon, ionizers, and sprays.


Any links to some good ozone generators? How much do they generally run?


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## Serapis (Oct 5, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Any links to some good ozone generators? How much do they generally run?


^^^ This!!

Hook us up.  I'm sure my first use of ONA will be the last. I have a small grow with good air pressure leading out of the house. I rarely smell it in my room.


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## Serapis (Oct 5, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> You gonna set a firm date for harvest or just wait until they are "ready"? Not sure, but I think the bubblelicious strain is about a 9 week indorr flowering. That sound like what you have heard?


They are supposedly 60-65 days. We'll see. I have my macro setting on my camera and I have a 30x loupe. I'm going to go the distance on them, the time wise mention was just so everyone could reference how far along the plants were.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 6, 2010)

So, I'm guessing you won't post any vids of your grow room?


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## Serapis (Oct 6, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> So, I'm guessing you won't post any vids of your grow room?


Why don't you go check Youtube for videos of grow rooms? If you are talking to me, I don't have a camcorder or a phone with video capability. I do have a digital camera and have been using it throughout this grow. If this site was video centric, we would be able to upload videos as well as pictures directly to the site now wouldn't we? And what good is a video of plants in a cramped closet? 

It's not that I "won't" post videos, I CAN't. Comprende?


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## AutonomousCannabis (Oct 6, 2010)

You don't gotta try and call me out and say i don't know what I'm talking about. i didn't notice it was in soil is all. Don't be so quick to judge. What do you have to prove to these people?

*^^^ BAD ADVICE*

A soil PH of 6.5 is ideal. In fact, if you lower it any more, you would lock out Ca and Mg beginning at 6.4

I wish those that didn't know what they were talking about would lurk a bit longer instead of giving out bad advice.


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## WattSaver (Oct 6, 2010)

Magnificient said:


> I couldn't get enough odor control from ona. I finally fixed the odors with an ozone generator. I wish I had gone straight to ozone generators rather than wasting money on ona, carbon, ionizers, and sprays.



One thing to watch out with Ozone generators is that the ozone is hard on some types of rubber and plastics. My wife used to sell industrial units for use in beauty parlors etc. and we used to run one in the house on low. And found out the hard way. For an experiment take a rubber band and leave it in your grow room for a couple of weeks then give it a stretch. you'll feel the stiffening and it will eventually just break down completely. 

But they do remove all off color odors.


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## Serapis (Oct 6, 2010)

AutonomousCannabis said:


> You don't gotta try and call me out and say i don't know what I'm talking about. i didn't notice it was in soil is all. Don't be so quick to judge. What do you have to prove to these people?
> 
> *^^^ BAD ADVICE*
> 
> ...


You are in the wrong thread and you didn't know what you were talking about in the other one either. I'm not judging you. I was warning the poster NOT to follow your advice.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 7, 2010)

Leafpot420 said:


> So much hate in this thread, let the man grow... just because its different doesn't mean its bad. Keep up the good work Serapis.


It's "the man" who is spawning all of the hate. If anyone questions him in any way, they are labeled as a troll. Being I was labeled from the beginning, I decided to just roll with it.


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> It's "the man" who is spawning all of the hate. If anyone questions him in any way, they are labeled as a troll. Being I was labeled from the beginning, I decided to just roll with it.


Sigh...... 

I ran into Nerdy420 on a thread he started here... https://www.rollitup.org/organics/338899-mg-will-kill-your-plants-10.html

He starts off the thread innocently enough asking if MG is ok to use. He even asks 5 times, how to flush plants. He is given the answer several times. Near the end of the thread, he is attacking MG and anyone that uses it. I point out that i'm using it and I'm doing fine. He then finds my sig, this thread here, my grow journal, and then has the nerve to tell me that anyone that spends $1400 on a grow room and then uses MG is ludicrous. He also challenges EVERYONE else that states they use MG to prove it works. He asks for journals, pictures, etc. He was basically being an ass to everyone that he disagreed with. Mind you, HE started the thread and asked if MG was ok to use. He even claimed that a friend had used it and had great results. So one has to wonder why he then challenges anyone that says MG is a good product. He goes so far to tell a poster he doesn't believe him.

He then comes into this thread and makes his first post on post number #252, telling me that my grow is anything but stealthy. He continues to be a general ass and is asked to stop posting in this thread. I even reported three of his asinine posts, the Mod deletes them and Nerdy420 disappears for awhile. Suspended from boards perhaps? I challenge anyone to find a single post he has made that has contributed to this thread. In fact, he only has 104 posts, go look at them in his profile. He has called other posters faggots, liars and other names. He has bumped threads that were nearly two years old, again just to be an ass.

I haven't called anyone but Nerd a troll. If the name fucking fits, wear it with pride troll.


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

*starting 3rd week of 12/12*

The plants are sleeping as I write this, I'll post up some pics later in the day. I've stopped adding Open Sesame and have begun to feed with Big Bloom, Tiger Bloom and Big Grow and Beastie Bloomz. The plants are really reacting well to the nutes. I should have a flush coming up soon. The tips of the colas all have beautiful looking pistils and the colas are stretching upwards daily. The cola stems have also gotten really thick, indicating she is preparing to hold some weight.

The lower tips are budding as well, which is surprising given that the grow is LED and the lights don't penetrate much. I would love to drop some 2700k CFLs down beside the plants right now, but I have sworn this grow would be pure LED for scientific purposes, yield be damned. Depending on outcome, I may add other lighting on my scrog grow next.

I fed the plants yesterday and the nute soup PH was at 7.0 going in AND running off at 7.0! First time I have had that happen! The lime is working! I top dressed with dolomite lime about 3 weeks ago and it shows now. No PH problems. ?The readings on run off fluctuated between 7.0 and 7.1. Next watering I'll PH at 6.5 and stay there until flush.

The LED lights have to be raised an inch every two days. The dog collar choke chains are working great. An inch is two links. The canopy is even. Every plant is now the exact same height. That surprised me, as Runt was the biggest at one time. All plants have at least two colas, some have 4. I have learned with my newer plants to prune out the fan leaves that shade the two late colas. If you don't, they get stunted and eventually choked out by leaves. The next batch will all have 4 strong colas. Experience is a nice asset. 

*Seedlings:*

The new plants continue to amaze me. They were only fed once and that was when they were in the solo cups and showed the first sign of yellowing. Once I transplanted into Miracle Grow Organic Choice and worm castings, they have really taken off. They are growing much faster than the first bunch ever did, I'm wondering how they'll do vegging another 6 weeks while the others flower. I'm not feeding them, except for Cal-Mag once a week. I'm letting MG do the feeding for now along with worm castings. Those that hate on MG are misguided. I recommend it strongly, especially the Organic Choice product. I do amend with MG Perlite. 

*clones:*

I'm proud of the clones this time. The clones are now 9 days old. Not a single leaf has begun to yellow yet, so I'm not near planting yet. I have been removing the dome and misting and allowing the dome to stay off for 3-5 minutes twice a day. I also removed all standing water from the tray. The only thing in my misting water is SuperThrive. The clone cuttings are being rooted in Rock wool cubes and this time I squeezed out excessive water. I'm really impressed with these cloned tops. They look great and they will be fine plants.

When I lift the dome off the tray, I can feel the humidity and heat rise. The smell is incredible as well, a very strong herbal smell. I can't wait to get these into soil. 

I promise to get pictures up in a bit. I have 5 bubblelicious seeds left and 15 plants going strong! I'm hoping to not need the seeds for awhile.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 7, 2010)

I'm glad I have a stalker. I love it.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 7, 2010)

Sounds great Serapis. Isn't it a great feeling when you overcome problems from a previous grow? I love it! Keep on learning and keep us updated!

(btw GreenNerd420 was added to my ignore list, let's just move on without acknowledging him)


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## mr2shim (Oct 7, 2010)

It's really sad to see people crap on someones grow journal regardless of how big a douche the OP is or not. It's still his journal, you should respect him and his stance on LED. If you think your CFL grow will crush his LED grow, that's fine and dandy, but at least be an adult and not post it. I guess I expect too much from people now days. Decency and respect are all but gone from society. I have a hard time believing a lot of people posting in this thread are old enough to drive a car much less grow.

In short, if you don't like him or his thread. Unsubscribe and stop posting.


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## mr2shim (Oct 7, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> This is not a journal, this is in the open forum, and as I said if OP spent more time growing and less time being troll bait it would behoove him.


Do you consider post #490 troll bait? Because to me it looked like he was updating his status on his plants. The the very next post a gent named greennerd420 posted something that had nothing to do with that particular post, then on post 492 someone posts a reply to it, then you post another in my opinion useless comment.

So who's trolling?

Like I said, if you don't like him or his posts, stop clicking his thread and replying. It's not like he's making you reply. You are no better than him, in fact you are worse by falling into what you consider "troll bait" 

Is it really hard to act like an adult on the internet?


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## mr2shim (Oct 7, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> Two things I've learned ITT.
> 1 - CFLs are great for vegging
> 2 - Serapis is a huge douche
> 
> ...


It's funny to read that post then read your signature. Bit of an oxymoron isn't it?


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## TheJointProject (Oct 7, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> I guess I expect too much from people now days. Decency and respect are all but gone from society.


 Unfortunately, I believe you are right. Seems like some people are just here to cause trouble instead of using it as a peaceful place for us to observe, learn and share what we ALL love. 

that being said I would suggest to serapis that he take Lucky's advice and just put him on your ignore list. If you treat the "trolls" as children like they act and ignore them completely then they will get bored and go away. And even if they don't, at least you don't have to see what they have to say.


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## TheJointProject (Oct 7, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> It's funny to read that post then read your signature. Bit of an oxymoron isn't it?


LOL good catch mr2shim! Time to call the doc so he can remove the foot from that guys mouth

Bonzi - No disrespect, but you set yourself up for that one.


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

Magnificient said:


> I couldn't get enough odor control from ona. I finally fixed the odors with an ozone generator. I wish I had gone straight to ozone generators rather than wasting money on ona, carbon, ionizers, and sprays.


My ONA got here yesterday and I must say, I'm quite impressed with it. I have a one quart gar of the gel crystals and it is just cracked open. You can smell it all the way across my house. The slight smell of plants is gone, entirely. For those growing a small crop, I have to recommend you try ONA before spending $100+ on a commercial scrubber. I still vent outside, but the slight whiff I used to pick up of herb is gone now.


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> Sounds great Serapis. Isn't it a great feeling when you overcome problems from a previous grow? I love it! Keep on learning and keep us updated!
> 
> (btw GreenNerd420 was added to my ignore list, let's just move on without acknowledging him)


Thanks, and thanks to all that tired of trolls. I have updated my ignore list as advised.


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

Here are the promised Pics. Took forever to get in using my VPN and proxy. I hope the uploads go through.

Have a nice weekend.

Quick correction, the update cited that this was start of week 3 of flowering, actually this is week 2 of flowering and week 3 of 12/12.


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## mr2shim (Oct 7, 2010)

This may be a stupid question but why use a proxy?

Plants are looking very nice.


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> This may be a stupid question but why use a proxy?
> 
> Plants are looking very nice.


Thanks for the word. A proxy and VPN allow me to post without revealing my true IP address. Otherwise, I would not be on these boards posting pics.


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## mr2shim (Oct 7, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Thanks for the word. A proxy and VPN allow me to post without revealing my true IP address. Otherwise, I would not be on these boards posting pics.


That's what I figured, I never though about doing that.


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> That's what I figured, I never though about doing that.


Google "cyberghost VPN"

You'll never surf far from home without it again. I used to use proxy hops, but damn if that didn't take forever and many times, the cookies wouldn't work from one page to the next. Cyberghost is awesome. The free account has 1 gig per month. I made mistake of leaving my email prog running and it downloaded a ton of jokes from a buddy, now I only have like 300 MB left for next 20 days.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 7, 2010)

How far away are the LED panels in your flowering? I know you are scared of burning the plants due to your seedling scare, but I think these guys can handle 6" away if you don't already have them that low. The buds I have under my LED light are crazy fat and larger than ones that get partial light or mostly CFL light. Food for thought!

I actually call all of it flowering once I switch to 12/12, not just when the pistils start showing up.

Do you keep a written journal? Do you have the dates and progress of each seed that cracked? Just curious, might be a good idea for selecting your mother plant(s). Write down the pros and cons as you go along, especially since you have all of the same strain just different specimens.

Your veg plants look SICK! (as in awesome) Nice and full, good color. I hope they don't get too big on you while the others are hogging up the Flowering lights!


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 7, 2010)

Hey Serapis, ever seen this before?

View attachment 1199491

As you can see, the starter and first leaves at the bottom of the pic, this is the first node and it has 2 whole tops growing out of it! Hehe, I hope she turns out to be a heavy purple female! How crazy would it be if each node did this????? Holy Shit!


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## Serapis (Oct 7, 2010)

Thanks for all of the kind words everyone. The LED overheads are about 4" above the flowers. I keep them just high enough to cover all the flower tops. I have some side branching going on too, as I topped right above the second node. Keep an eye on my veg plant updates. I'm trying to get 4 colas per pot so if you catch me slacking from that, call it out. 

Lucky, that is a wild photo. Nice branching!  but you probably would never see that in an LED grow.


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## Magnificient (Oct 7, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Google "cyberghost VPN"
> 
> You'll never surf far from home without it again. I used to use proxy hops, but damn if that didn't take forever and many times, the cookies wouldn't work from one page to the next. Cyberghost is awesome. The free account has 1 gig per month. I made mistake of leaving my email prog running and it downloaded a ton of jokes from a buddy, now I only have like 300 MB left for next 20 days.


Got it, and thank you.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 7, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Thanks for all of the kind words everyone. The LED overheads are about 4" above the flowers. I keep them just high enough to cover all the flower tops. I have some side branching going on too, as I topped right above the second node. Keep an eye on my veg plant updates. I'm trying to get 4 colas per pot so if you catch me slacking from that, call it out.
> 
> Lucky, that is a wild photo. Nice branching!  but you probably would never see that in an LED grow.


That's just how the seed sprout, I didn't do anything to it! LOL. I have a little more detail about it in my grow but I think it has to do with how the taproot made the plant fall over early in it's life.


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## Serapis (Oct 8, 2010)

I have a dilemma and would like some feedback please. I was putting the ladies to sleep last night and closing up their area when I decided to check moisture levels with my probe. The probe did not insert easily and I suspect it was roots near the top. I considered transplanting before going 12/12 and decided at the time against it. This early into flowering, I'm beginning to think I have another 6-7 weeks to go and it would benefit greatly to re-pot. I've done some searching and it seems several people have done this with good results.

What do you guys think? I have some new 3 gallon pots and plenty of soil. I'm not concerned about having to maybe add a week to the flowering time if needed. The goal here is to make sure that I've not restricted the yield by not potting up, as this is a test of the LED lighting. I'd hate to think my pots held back the yield.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 8, 2010)

I would definitely repot, would be a shame to hold back your plants, especially when you have the pots and soil available.

If you are careful there should be little or no disturbance and the plants will love the new soil.


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## TheJointProject (Oct 8, 2010)

i agree. repot those girls and they will thank you


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## Serapis (Oct 8, 2010)

I'm going to repot as soon as they wake up at 2 pm. Thanks.


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## Serapis (Oct 8, 2010)

Plants #1 and #2 have been repotted. I just ran out of Perlite and have 3 plants to go.. Off to Wally World...


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 8, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Thanks for the word. A proxy and VPN allow me to post without revealing my true IP address. Otherwise, I would not be on these boards posting pics.


What does a VPN have to do with it? Sounds like you're piggy backing on someone who isn't aware. That sounds more illegal than anything. A VPN does not give you anonymity. It creates a virtual LAN.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 8, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Plants #1 and #2 have been repotted. I just ran out of Perlite and have 3 plants to go.. Off to Wally World...


I wish my Walmart sold Perlite.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 8, 2010)

The link to my 3 week old plant. https://www.rollitup.org/members/greennerd420-254858/albums/ww-fast-movers-14405/

The plant in this pic is a WW and I'm not certain where it came from. A buddy left it with me as a token of appreciation for letting him sleep on my couch. 

The room it was in in this pic is very tight. Sorry for being coy and goofy earlier. Oh, and sorry for calling you a faggot, Serapis. You're not a faggot.

Oh, and by the way, where the fuck are the buds you should be flowering by now? You're growing autos and it's been 3 fucking months.... Some yield.


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## WWShadow (Oct 8, 2010)

HA HA HA HAHA Serapis, your thread is so much better now that I figured out how to use the ignore feature! it was getting so hard to follow your grow that I was just gonna unsub. I think that may be the troll's desire is to make it impossible to follow your grow.
I hope the girls take the repot well! g'luck


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## mr2shim (Oct 8, 2010)

Yea, GreenNerd really needs to go outside and stop trolling so much. It may sound stupid but I reported his posts. He should be banned IMO. Why is it always LED threads that get trolled?


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## breakneck (Oct 8, 2010)

Everyone who doesn't use LED's hates them...wonder why? lol.


mr2shim said:


> Yea, GreenNerd really needs to go outside and stop trolling so much. It may sound stupid but I reported his posts. He should be banned IMO. Why is it always LED threads that get trolled?


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## mr2shim (Oct 8, 2010)

breakneck said:


> Everyone who doesn't use LED's hates them...wonder why? lol.


Yea, I use CFL's and I think LED grows are pretty cool. Love seeing things done different. Props to the guys who grow with led


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## Serapis (Oct 8, 2010)

Just ignore the guy, he isn't harming anything. Autoflowers? LOL


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 8, 2010)

You have nothing to say. Just as I had expected.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 8, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Just ignore the guy, he isn't harming anything. Autoflowers? LOL


I was like, AUTOFLOWERS? Then I read nerd's ignorant posts and realized what you were talking about. IT's funny when idiots shoot their mouth off and don't even know what they are talking about.... pity for him. I think he has a bit of a complex of some type, not sure where that comes from though...lol


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 8, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> Yea, I use CFL's and I think LED grows are pretty cool. Love seeing things done different. Props to the guys who grow with led


It was Serapis's thread that got me interested in LED's but I am doing it differently - drop by my thread to see another type of LED being put to the test.





Serapis said:


> Just ignore the guy, he isn't harming anything. Autoflowers? LOL


Seriously, why would you use Autoflowers when you are testing the efficiency of LED's ... in fact why would you use autoflowers at all?


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## plsfoldthx (Oct 8, 2010)

Hey I bought the HTG LED 120w. Haven't got it yet, but 206 did a grow and looked like mega fail lol

here it is: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/171089-120w-led-rainforest-66-papaya.html

I suggest supplementing with CFLs


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## Serapis (Oct 9, 2010)

thanks LP..... New pics coming shortly. I just finished re-potting other plants not too long ago. I did some selective pruning and the plants are looking great.


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## Serapis (Oct 9, 2010)

*BUD PORN:*

These pics were taken today after re-potting was finished. I love my camera's macro mode. I wanted to take some bud porn pictures and share. I hope you guys enjoy the pics. The ladies love LED life! 

I have discovered that by raising my lights a bit, I get better coverage and my light meter is still indicating 2k lumens a sq'.


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## Retris (Oct 9, 2010)

Ahhh shit. They're lookin great! About how long now would you expect until you are harvesting?


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## Serapis (Oct 9, 2010)

Retris said:


> Ahhh shit. They're lookin great! About how long now would you expect until you are harvesting?


When they are ready.  That is the best answer I can give ya. In the mean time, please enjoy the bud porn. It'll only get prettier from here.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 9, 2010)

Your ladies certainly like the LEDs. I haven't raised my light to the "optimum" height yet so my baby plant is getting a severe dose of purple ... and loving it.


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## mr2shim (Oct 9, 2010)

Wow, those are looking great!

A couple of questions I'm sure you've answered. How many total watts from the LED's and do they put off any heat?


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## Serapis (Oct 9, 2010)

mr2shim said:


> Wow, those are looking great!
> 
> A couple of questions I'm sure you've answered. How many total watts from the LED's and do they put off any heat?


Total LED wattage is 296W, but i'm thinking 56W of that is BS, the side panels. I have to say that they do radiate a lil heat. A closet would need to be opened for a few minutes at a time, several times a day, or some fans blowing around. In the case of box grows like your CFL, a P fan or two would be sufficient to exhale warm air near the top.


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## umm....chris (Oct 9, 2010)

Leafpot420 said:


> I must admit, those LED's make it look like your growing in some space station.


thats funny


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## WWShadow (Oct 9, 2010)

Leafpot420 said:


> It's sucks I have to read like 6 ignorant posts before I can see how serapis's grow is doing, can ya'll please get out of this thread if you don't have any helpful advice, no one cares about your negative bs. You can argue back and forth about different grow styles and lights for years, it's just a preference, some things work better for others, as far as LED goes, warm states like Arizona would be ideal for LED growing because outdoor temps reach 120, while they use choppers to locate indoor grow ops. With LED no one would be able to see it.... so before you start running your mouth, remember, certain styles work better in certain places. Keep it up Serapis! I'd love to see the plants after they take to the new pots! GL and happy growing.


Temps are my main reason for looking at LED's. I'm liking this grow alot. I just get impatient waiting for mother nature to run her course with flowereing lol


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## WWShadow (Oct 9, 2010)

Serapis said:


> *BUD PORN:*
> 
> These pics were taken today after re-potting was finished. I love my camera's macro mode. I wanted to take some bud porn pictures and share. I hope you guys enjoy the pics. The ladies love LED life!
> 
> I have discovered that by raising my lights a bit, I get better coverage and my light meter is still indicating 2k lumens a sq'.


since the LED light emitted is almost all going to the plalnt I am assuming that the 2k lumens a sq' is pretty good? I dunno, I'm behind on lighting as far as how much the plants need per sq ft.


----------



## 1freezy (Oct 10, 2010)

Glad you repotted them! I've done it once and i had a 10 day harvest difference but well worth it!


----------



## Pure (Oct 10, 2010)

Nice serapis,

Way to push dude!! You've got quite a little LED power pack going on there!!! And gonna add. Whew that should be fucking nice dude...


Pure...


----------



## Serapis (Oct 10, 2010)

WWShadow said:


> since the LED light emitted is almost all going to the plalnt I am assuming that the 2k lumens a sq' is pretty good? I dunno, I'm behind on lighting as far as how much the plants need per sq ft.


I believe that 2k lumen per sq' is the goal. Some one will correct me if that is off, but i'm sure that is what I read in Ed's book. My light meter designed for plants maxes out at 2k as well. I use the meter when raising lights or moving around plants. Being an LED grow, I"m ever mindful of making sure my tops are getting maximum possible light.


----------



## plsfoldthx (Oct 10, 2010)

i thought it was 10000 lumens/sqft as thats what the sun produces but i think its different for leds?


----------



## plsfoldthx (Oct 10, 2010)

but hey serapis what are ur thoughts on the 120w HTG led panel?


----------



## Serapis (Oct 10, 2010)

plsfoldthx said:


> i thought it was 10000 lumens/sqft as thats what the sun produces but i think its different for leds?


Thanks for the challenge, I knew someone would make me research this.  The Marijuana Growers Handbook states that plants can use up to 3k lumen a square, but Indica's and most varieties that grow well indoors will do well with 2000 footcandle, or lumen. It goes on to say most varieties will do well with 1000 - 1500 lumen (page 57)

While Lumens can't accurately describe how well an LED light will grow plants, it can be used to measure the LED light intensity to the human eye. (http://www.led-grow-master.com/files/2010Lumens.pdf (10/08/2010) I make sure my tops are getting 2000 lumen each. I discovered by raising my LEDs, the area of coverage grew dramatically and the tops were still getting enough light to max out my meter. I'm impressed with the HTG 120W system.



plsfoldthx said:


> but hey serapis what are ur thoughts on the 120w HTG led panel?


I like the HTG 120W systems. I'll let you know better when I have a dry yield count.


----------



## Pure (Oct 10, 2010)

Hey Serapis,

Dude r u setting that as kinda ur standard 2K lumens? I'd need to see what my LED is producing in lumens in order to validate your suggestions.


Pure...


----------



## Serapis (Oct 10, 2010)

Pure said:


> Hey Serapis,
> 
> Dude r u setting that as kinda ur standard 2K lumens? I'd need to see what my LED is producing in lumens in order to validate your suggestions.
> 
> ...


Sorry for any confusion, I'm not making suggestions. I'm merely pointing out what my standard is with my tri-bands. Your mileage may differ.


----------



## weedster.for.life (Oct 11, 2010)

Glad to see someone else going with LEDs. I made the switch and I am kind of wondering when they will catch on with the general growing population. There are alot of pretty crap products in the LED market but I went with four of these bad boys and their delivering quite nicely so far. I still am only four months in so I got another two months to debate whether to return them or not, I guess we will see.


----------



## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 11, 2010)

weedster.for.life said:


> I am kind of wondering when they will catch on with the general growing population.


Easy answer = 300W General Purpose / Flowering LED Grow Light *$1,180.00*


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 11, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> Easy answer = 300W General Purpose / Flowering LED Grow Light *$1,180.00*


LOL! Who sells that unit? That is the high end price for LED's. That's like buying a Bentley as your first car.

There are LED units that will grow good bud for the novice for around $150-300 to get you started.

I paid $140 w/ shipping for my UFO and it was fine for 2 plants, I just wanted to grow more and didn't want to buy anything additional.

The buds that are under the LED in my setup are larger and denser than the ones that have more CFL lighting, but it's all good looking bud for a small grow.


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## 420n00b (Oct 11, 2010)

Well that pricing is a bit "dramatic". Be that as it may LEDs are still on the pricey side so I can understand the complaints of cost. Like everyone else I want to know if the price is worth the result. Skepticism isn't a bad thing as long as you aren't a dick about it =P

Hurry up Serapis!


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 11, 2010)

The best use of LED's at this point is for smaller grows like cabinets. Places there isn't much space and you don't want to have to spend a lot on venting. I'm not one to say LED is the future or that it should be used commercially..... I do say that I wouldn't be able to use HPS in my cab but LED/CFL is working great for me!

What cracks me up is the hatred people have for anything other than what they "know"


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## tobikan.judan (Oct 11, 2010)

don't fuck around with cheap panels! when you compare LED to HID, in the long run they even out. No AC, they last longer, and will not loose intensity, and your electrical bill will be lower. Expect to spend >1k dollars upfront for a good LED setup. 


Hey serapis, how much have you spent on your lights, all together?


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## breakneck (Oct 12, 2010)

Everyone hates the new kid on the block...wtf.


luckyskindaguy said:


> The best use of LED's at this point is for smaller grows like cabinets. Places there isn't much space and you don't want to have to spend a lot on venting. I'm not one to say LED is the future or that it should be used commercially..... I do say that I wouldn't be able to use HPS in my cab but LED/CFL is working great for me!
> 
> What cracks me up is the hatred people have for anything other than what they "know"


----------



## Serapis (Oct 12, 2010)

420n00b said:


> Well that pricing is a bit "dramatic". Be that as it may LEDs are still on the pricey side so I can understand the complaints of cost. Like everyone else I want to know if the price is worth the result. Skepticism isn't a bad thing as long as you aren't a dick about it =P
> 
> Hurry up Serapis!


You can't rush Mother Nature. I noticed with my loupe that the top leaves, on the edges, are beginning to form trichs. I'm sure the harvest will be around Thanksgiving.... how appropriate. 



luckyskindaguy said:


> What cracks me up is the hatred people have for anything other than what they "know"


Some of those very people believe the moon landing was faked.... What are we gonna do? 



tobikan.judan said:


> don't fuck around with cheap panels! when you compare LED to HID, in the long run they even out. No AC, they last longer, and will not loose intensity, and your electrical bill will be lower. Expect to spend >1k dollars upfront for a good LED setup.
> 
> 
> Hey serapis, how much have you spent on your lights, all together?


<scratching head>

Lemme see, $325, $257 and $225 .... so about $800 in LED lights. My next grow will have 6 2700k CFLs in 8.5" reflector hoods added. I just have to know for my benefit whether the additional CFLs will make a difference.... something is urging me to do this strongly.


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## Serapis (Oct 12, 2010)

*DEFORESTATION:*

wELL, i FINALLY GOT TIRED OF MISSING COLAS AND HIDDEN BUD SITES. Opps...

The plants numbered 6-10 have had excessive leaves removed. I'm training them via pruning to have 4 strong colas each and lots of bud sites. By pruning early in veg, I'm encouraging branching. The plants have reacted well.

I've gone through plants 1-5 and have removed any leaf that was blocking other tops of bud sites along the stalks. After that and re-potting, the plants look different, but better. 

*Clones:*

The future plants look very good. The tops are extremely healthy and strong. I've noticed the stems thickening a bit and the tips of the leaves are starting to yellow a bit, signs that the clones are rooting. Sometime today I'll gently squeeze excess water out of rock wool and I'll soak them in a gentle plant food with some soluble Nitrogen. The temp in humidity dome is a constant 84 degrees and humidity is at 90%. I'm allowing air exchanges twice a day now, and I believe I'll be potting these sometime next week or as soon as this weekend.

These were the tops that were cut off of plants 6-10 during their topping. I couldn't bare to toss away the tops so I cloned them for practice as I destroyed the first 5 tops. These are coming along awesome. I removed the yellowing fan leaves that were left and only new growth tops exist on the clones now. 

This is going to put me in a position of having 5 three gallon pots flowering under the LEDs and 10 1.5 gal pots veging under 4x 4' 6500k cool White Plus bulbs. This is going to get interesting. I may be vegging all 5 tops for 3-4 months. I'm beginning to wish I had a second flowering room. With cloning, I could harvest every 3-4 weeks.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> You can't rush Mother Nature. I noticed with my loupe that the top leaves, on the edges, are beginning to form trichs. I'm sure the harvest will be around Thanksgiving.... how appropriate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


MY suggestion if you put the CFL's in would be to keep the wattage near the same as this grow (240w) That way you will better be able to tell if it was the type of light over just additional wattage. That would be for scientific purposes at least.....

Also, I would try to keep to the same size and number of plants if you could.


You gonna post pics again soon?


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 12, 2010)

Hey Serapis, you mind stopping by my thread and posting a little something? I haven't been getting much love over there lately


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## Serapis (Oct 12, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> MY suggestion if you put the CFL's in would be to keep the wattage near the same as this grow (240w) That way you will better be able to tell if it was the type of light over just additional wattage. That would be for scientific purposes at least.....
> 
> Also, I would try to keep to the same size and number of plants if you could.
> 
> ...


 I just posted a lot of bud porn 2-3 days ago, lol... I'll get some pics taken soon. 

It's definitely going to be same number of plants. I'm just wanting to supplement my LED with CFL, not totally replace it. I'm guessing around 100W extra in 2700k could be the difference in a few ounces.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I just posted a lot of bud porn 2-3 days ago, lol... I'll get some pics taken soon.
> 
> It's definitely going to be same number of plants. I'm just wanting to supplement my LED with CFL, not totally replace it. I'm guessing around 100W extra in 2700k could be the difference in a few ounces.


I was just wondering about the pics since you trimmed the plants up.

I know you were planning on supplementing, I just suggesting to keep the wattage close to the same so you would know if the next grow (if better or worse production occurs) will tell you if 2x120w LED or 1x120w LED and @ 120w CFL is better. Only since you states you were interested in scientific aspect of collecting data.

That said, I know what it's like to just want to grow as much as you can 

Thanks for dropping by my thread. I start flush today, chop Sat!


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## 420n00b (Oct 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> You can't rush Mother Nature. I noticed with my loupe that the top leaves, on the edges, are beginning to form trichs. I'm sure the harvest will be around Thanksgiving.... how appropriate.


Yeah I know, I'm just getting anxious. Been following this grow since shortly after you started and very interested in seeing the results. What a thing to have a completion time around thanksgiving.

I'm also getting anxious because my very first grow started flowering last week so seeing more flowering pics and bud porn is win =D


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## Serapis (Oct 12, 2010)

420n00b said:


> Yeah I know, I'm just getting anxious. Been following this grow since shortly after you started and very interested in seeing the results. What a thing to have a completion time around thanksgiving.
> 
> I'm also getting anxious because my very first grow started flowering last week so seeing more flowering pics and bud porn is win =D


The first set of pistils always excite me. These plants were vegging for far too long because of my burn incident early in the grow. That'll never happen again. The plants are stretching again, after I thought stretching was done, they are gaining about 1" every 2 days. The bigger pots are working. If it sets back harvest, oh well, my dealer is back in business again, I'll wait.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 12, 2010)

Serapis said:


> The first set of pistils always excite me. These plants were vegging for far too long because of my burn incident early in the grow. That'll never happen again. The plants are stretching again, after I thought stretching was done, they are gaining about 1" every 2 days. The bigger pots are working. If it sets back harvest, oh well, my dealer is back in business again, I'll wait.


Sweet, that should allow you to sit back and relax and not rush the process. Enjoy the show!


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## Serapis (Oct 13, 2010)

*About 14 days into flowering*

Here are some new pics. Notice the nice flowers showing up all over. I've got some close ups here that allow you to see the mushroom shaped trich's forming. This camera has a killer macro...

Enjoy the pics. I used flash and a photog tripod light to capture the true color of the plants, rather than the LEDs color. LED plant pics are OK, but I get tired of seeing bluish purple leaves.

Enjoy.


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## mr2shim (Oct 13, 2010)

GreenNerd420 said:


> removed


Reported post, hope you get banned. I think he has you on ignore anyways so he can't even read your crap*.
*
Serapis, the plants look amazing! Look better than mine at 21 days of 12/12.


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## Serapis (Oct 13, 2010)

No, but I can see your post Mr2 and thanks for catching that before he edited it. I have reported it as well and provided a copy of the original. How sad that this idiot just won't go away and learn already. I hope the mods deal with him a lot harsher this time. I'm about fed up with it...

Thanks for the kind words Mr.2 I removed leaves that were blocking bud sites and the flowers are taking off! I'm hoping the entire thick stalks will flower over from top to bottom. I was reading up on the Bubble Gum strain and it described these plants traits to a TEE.... slow to grow in veg, short and squat plants until you flower, then they stretch hard and the mains really thicken up to get ready for the weight.


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## mr2shim (Oct 13, 2010)

Serapis said:


> No, but I can see your post Mr2 and thanks for catching that before he edited it. I have reported it as well and provided a copy of the original. How sad that this idiot just won't go away and learn already. I hope the mods deal with him a lot harsher this time. I'm about fed up with it...
> 
> Thanks for the kind words Mr.2 I removed leaves that were blocking bud sites and the flowers are taking off! I'm hoping the entire thick stalks will flower over from top to bottom. I was reading up on the Bubble Gum strain and it described these plants traits to a TEE.... slow to grow in veg, short and squat plants until you flower, then they stretch hard and the mains really thicken up to get ready for the weight.


Yea, they really do take off during flower. I'm not sure if mine will be a heavy yield but I'm hoping it will do some. From the way they look, if they don't put on any more weight I'll still be happy.


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## Serapis (Oct 13, 2010)

Thanks all. I can also see that the problem has been taken care of. Let's get back to growin weed!


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## tranquility (Oct 13, 2010)

damn serapis theyre lookin might fine!!! ur keeping them nice and healthy. 
how much do you think those side panels will increase your yield?
peace


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 13, 2010)

how tall are the plants that are in flowering?


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## Serapis (Oct 13, 2010)

tranquility said:


> damn serapis theyre lookin might fine!!! ur keeping them nice and healthy.
> how much do you think those side panels will increase your yield?
> peace


 I think the side panels were a waste of money and time. CFL or Flouro would have been better.



luckyskindaguy said:


> how tall are the plants that are in flowering?


My tallest is 19" measured from top of pot to top of flower. Most are around 14-16" colas


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## bird mcbride (Oct 13, 2010)

I noticed that the concern is stealth. If you Run the 1000w hps's without bonnets the coppers can't positively identify it as a grow. They use radar heat signature and without the big metal bonnets the signatures are negligable.


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## Serapis (Oct 14, 2010)

bird mcbride said:


> I noticed that the concern is stealth. If you Run the 1000w hps's without bonnets the coppers can't positively identify it as a grow. They use radar heat signature and without the big metal bonnets the signatures are negligable.


Heat is heat, whether it is reflected or not doesn't much matter. It's not simply a IR concern, there is also a jump in power bills and additional heat to deal with, fans, noise, etc.... I have two roommates who have no idea I grow. The power bills stayed the same. With my current exhaust set up and LED lights, the temp still reaches 90 degrees in there if I leave the door closed. imagine if I was running a 1000w lamp?

This is and will be a LED grow. I'm not here to debate LED vs hid lamps. I am here to simply do an LED grow and see how much I can yield.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 14, 2010)

Serapis said:


> ... I am here to simply do an LED grow and see how much I can yield.


... and to entertain and inform various interested people


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 14, 2010)

It's not a train wreck, yet, but there is a big crowd lining the tracks.


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## Serapis (Oct 14, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> It's not a train wreck, yet, but there is a big crowd lining the tracks.


Dude, how many smart assed comments have you made in my thread? WTF do LED haters bother to subscribe to these threads? Is it just to cause grief? You really should get a hobby...


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 14, 2010)

I commend you for what you are doing. Hopefully you will disappoint the crowd.

FWIW it's your attitude people are attacking not your grow.

The smart thing for you to do is just not respond to the negative comments.


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## mr2shim (Oct 14, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> I commend you for what you are doing. Hopefully you will disappoint the crowd.
> 
> FWIW it's your attitude people are attacking not your grow.
> 
> The smart thing for you to do is just not respond to the negative comments.


So why do you even reply if you don't want him to respond to your posts? Being that they are negative comments? Bit of stupid reasoning yes? You like to contradict yourself.

"Hopefully you will disappoint the crowd" wow, how old are you?

I would hate to think your 1100 posts are mostly trolling. Such a shame. I reported your post as well.


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## Serapis (Oct 14, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> I commend you for what you are doing. Hopefully you will disappoint the crowd.
> 
> FWIW it's your attitude people are attacking not your grow.
> 
> The smart thing for you to do is just not respond to the negative comments.


The smart thing for you to do is to keep your negative comments to yourself.... That would also be the polite thing for you to do.


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## CallmeTex (Oct 14, 2010)

I'm a little late on this one, but subbed all the same. I've got a 300w LED from HTG a little over a month ago, and it works extremely well in the vegg room. I'm going to flower with it in about three weeks, side by side with 600hps, and see what happens. 

Your grow is looking awesome btw, I can't wait to see it progress! People that aren't conscious of new technology will be left in the past, and are just as ignorant as the people that criminalize weed!


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 14, 2010)

Serapis said:


> *Only Positive *Comments are very welcome.


FYP 

If you don't want comments don't ask for them.


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## Serapis (Oct 14, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> FYP
> 
> If you don't want comments don't ask for them.


Grow up and be an adult or just find another thread to troll. A constructive comments and your comments are two very different things.


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## JrOne424 (Oct 14, 2010)

I want a closet like that in xmas. xD It's so dayum cool.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 14, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> I commend you for what you are doing. Hopefully you will disappoint the crowd.
> 
> FWIW it's your attitude people are attacking not your grow.
> 
> The smart thing for you to do is just not respond to the negative comments.


Lmao i see it continues.


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## Serapis (Oct 14, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> Lmao i see it continues.


LOL, yes, yes it does....


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 14, 2010)

Serapis said:


> LOL, yes, yes it does....


 Well you wont hear nothing from me ive been following but i just want to see the end results.But i do get your frustration having to deal with this all the time.Good luck and keep the pics coming.


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## potroast (Oct 14, 2010)

Pardon the interruption. As a long-time user of public forums, I'd like to suggest that you stop getting agitated over what someone else posts. If you have something to say about it, that's fine to respond. Otherwise just ignore it and move on, because they have the same right to post that you do.

You'll be happier.


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## Serapis (Oct 14, 2010)

Sure, no problem PR.... just invite all of the LED bashers into this thread and I'll just ignore the name calling and the rude comments that get tossed this way, all in the name of free speech... It's pathetic really...


just vote YES on 19!

EDIT: LOL, thought I'd open up that can of worms for debate too.


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## plsfoldthx (Oct 14, 2010)

I seriously do not understand why people get angry over LEDs. I'm willing to bet they are people who shelled out a ton of money for a 90w UFO when it first came out or grew with 13w side panels and were disappointed. If you don't think they're all that great, fine. Even I don't think most LEDs are as efficient as HPS, but seriously getting emotional about how someone else chooses to grow their weed? LMFAO, you guys need to get a life.

So bizarre.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 14, 2010)

Good luck on your grow, Serapis.


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## Serapis (Oct 14, 2010)

Leafpot420 said:


> Serapis you said temperatures were still high despite being led, do you mind me asking what climate you're in? I'm curious whats keep your temp so high...


Sunny and hot Florida. The house is too hot to have the A down to 72, that would cost too much on the power bill. I use a window AC in the room so the closet has cool air incoming. It's not the lights throwing off heat, it is radiating from the attic above into the closet.

plsfoldthx: I sometimes think I have choosen the wrong path. I could have spent 200 and gotten an hid set up. I may still order one.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 14, 2010)

Serapis said:


> It's not the lights throwing off heat, it is radiating from the attic above into the closet.


Have you thought about throwing a bit of insulation in the attic - wouldn't be too big a job to just do the area above the closet.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 14, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Sunny and hot Florida. The house is too hot to have the A down to 72, that would cost too much on the power bill. I use a window AC in the room so the closet has cool air incoming. It's not the lights throwing off heat, it is radiating from the attic above into the closet.
> 
> plsfoldthx: I sometimes think I have choosen the wrong path. I could have spent 200 and gotten an hid set up. I may still order one.


For as tight a space as you have, I don't think HPS would work since you are wanting the veg and flower stacked. I do think you may have jumped into the deep end a little quickly though. Nothing wrong with that, you just learn how to swim a lot faster 

At this point you have made the investment, time to reap the rewards. Trust me, it is all worth it in the end and if LED gives you peace of mind don't worry about the negative posts. The first time I grew (2 plants without topping or anything with the lighting fixed to the ceiling of the cab) I only got half an ounce. I continued to learn new methods as well as correct my errors and am now yielding more with each grow!

When you make mistakes, and we all make them, learn from them. When you learn from one, you are likely to make others too. Don't let that get you down! Once you have made and learned from mistakes and tried new methods you will find what works for you. THAT'S when you find your groove.

You have come along quite a bit since you started posting. I know you read a lot before you took the growing plunge, but there is something to be said about first hand experience that trumps all else I feel. The grow I have going now is the only one without "problems" and I am still learning from it 

I will say this: If you go into your harvest wanting good smokable bud, you shouldn't be disappointed. The way I looked at it was, I saw how much my gf was spending each month on bud (about $160-200) and I found a way to spend less and get more. She even likes it better than anything she has smoked before or since in the last 2 years. Don't worry about if another light CAN yield more because we all know there are. But there is a trade off of one kind or another.

I have no doubt, if you avoid making serious errors, you will have some good bud to be thankful for near Thanksgiving! Keep the faith


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## plsfoldthx (Oct 14, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Sunny and hot Florida. The house is too hot to have the A down to 72, that would cost too much on the power bill. I use a window AC in the room so the closet has cool air incoming. It's not the lights throwing off heat, it is radiating from the attic above into the closet.
> 
> plsfoldthx: I sometimes think I have choosen the wrong path. I could have spent 200 and gotten an hid set up. I may still order one.


First, your plants look great.

Second, if you live in an apartment or do not have a concrete basement to grow in, the risk of fire always looms over your head with HID bulbs. A drop of water and an exploding bulb could ruin your life. So what if you get slightly less yields... I mean you're not growing to sell right? You can always combine your LED with a 70W HPS security light or a small 150W system later on if you feel like and get far less heat. I think LEDs plus a couple CFLs are a great way to go. What if you go away for a week... you don't have to worry about how your super hot HID system is doing. That peace of mind is money well worth spent.

Plus the plants look so cool under the purple light


----------



## luckyskindaguy (Oct 15, 2010)

plsfoldthx said:


> First, your plants look great.
> 
> Second, if you live in an apartment or do not have a concrete basement to grow in, the risk of fire always looms over your head with HID bulbs. A drop of water and an exploding bulb could ruin your life. So what if you get slightly less yields... I mean you're not growing to sell right? You can always combine your LED with a 70W HPS security light or a small 150W system later on if you feel like and get far less heat. I think LEDs plus a couple CFLs are a great way to go. What if you go away for a week... you don't have to worry about how your super hot HID system is doing. That peace of mind is money well worth spent.
> 
> Plus the plants look so cool under the purple light


I love that about LED. I have left the plants alone for 3 days while I went camping and had total peace of mind and knew the plants would be fine. Timers on the hydro and low heat lighting.... good stuff


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## 1freezy (Oct 15, 2010)

Plants r looking good bro!


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## oOBe RyeOo (Oct 15, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> Well you wont hear nothing from me ive been following but i just want to see the end results.But i do get your frustration having to deal with this all the time.Good luck and keep the pics coming.


Dude, don't feel sorry for this guy. Every thread he goes to... ends up arguing with people in them.


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## Serapis (Oct 16, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> Dude, don't feel sorry for this guy. Every thread he goes to... ends up arguing with people in them.


My first troll!.... lol... welcome back.... I don't know about every thread, but it seems the one's you are in end up that way. I wonder why that is? 

Thanks for dropping bye...


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## oOBe RyeOo (Oct 16, 2010)

Definitely gonna stick to my MH after watching this grow


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## Serapis (Oct 16, 2010)

oOBe RyeOo said:


> Definitely gonna stick to my MH after watching this grow


 
Coming from a real pro with 0 grows, like yourself, That means a lot to me, Thanks!


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## reefcouple (Oct 16, 2010)

Great thread Serapis.. still reading and I have alot to learn about LED's.. I can tell by your thread you've studied LED's extensively.. Something I think I need to do.. And as I understand it, LED's are coming a long way in a short time..

Thanks for the work you've put into all this, you've convinced me theres better options out there..


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## plsfoldthx (Oct 17, 2010)

They've dropped in price by half in one year


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Hey Serapis, just chopped. You should come check out the pics. Biggest nugs I have ever grown and more of them! The largest were the ones that were right under the LED.


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## Serapis (Oct 17, 2010)

*My Decision:*

OK, I have made a decision on LED lighting. 

The side panels do not seem to encourage any lower branching. I feel that CFLs would fit the bill here nicely, in some 8" reflector dishes, 2700k and 23w for flowering, 6500k for vegging... 

The 120 watt overheads do work nicely, but not greatly. For a hobbyist with a couple plants a grow, tucked away in a closet somewhere, these lights fit the bill. If you need to sell a few OZ per grow to cover expenses, pay a light bill, etc, you really need power. The LED lights quickly lose intensity when raised to cover more than a single adult plant. They also seem to take longer to finish cycles with more plants.

I have ordered a 600w digital hps system with an air cooled hood. I'll have a 600w to light up a 9' sq area. Thats 95k lumen (HTG High Uotput) which is over 10k lumen a square foot. I can't wait to get my next grow on.

I have not given up on LED lighting. For hobbyists with a small closet or grow box, they are ideal. The do veg great and they produce good bud, just look at my bud shots from only 3 weeks in 12/12 from an earlier post. My concern is turn around time. I'm in a great financial bind and I need to be able to pull a 1/2 pound every 4-5 weeks, for the next several grows, which I can easily do if I get the hang of cloning. (My latest clones all went yellow and never seemed to take in my foliar feeding. I shoulda used penetrator in my foliar feed  ) Next up is an ezcloner 

I do want to thank everyone that has been watching this thread with interest. I look forward to posting the LED dry weight results in about a month. In the mean time, do I order a tent for the 600w??


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> *My Decision:*
> 
> OK, I have made a decision on LED lighting.
> 
> ...


 Now you are moving to the big boys.I would get a tent for the 600 unless you can section off a 4x4 space with wood and panda film.
I wouldnt waste my time buying a ez cloner.If you are building it then fine but to buy it is overpriced.Cloning is very easy i just use a humidome and cups of seed starter soil my clones usually take 7-190 days to root.


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## Spoc (Oct 17, 2010)

Serapis..thanks for the honest review of your LED equipment. Would adding an additional 120w LED be an option for you? It seems as if your half way to where you want to be. I would upgrade to a tent only if you need more space and/or have insufficient ventilation. Followed your grow from the start..glad to see LEDs can stand on their own given the right space.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 17, 2010)

With a 600 you will easily pull a half pound every month= a pound every 2 months.Good luck


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## WWShadow (Oct 17, 2010)

well, we still have Grumpy Old Dreamer's grow with the kessil led see how it does.
Thanks for documenting your LED experience. You still have a month to go... I'll be watchin'


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## tobikan.judan (Oct 17, 2010)

you can't get good LED's on the cheap. I'm using a stealth grow sg602, and so far my plants are budding very nicely. good try though, someday good LED lighting will be available (affordable) for everybody. good luck with your grow


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> For a hobbyist with a couple plants a grow, tucked away in a closet somewhere,


 
... well, you just described me perfectly - definitely a hobbyist ... 2 plants at a time (when my second Kessil arrives) hopefully 14 strains over the next couple of years.

Thanks for getting me interested in LEDs - I'm hoping that the kessil lights have the penetration that your LEDs seem to have been lacking .... time will tell.




Serapis said:


> I look forward to posting the LED dry weight results in about a month


Does this mean that your current grow will be completed under LED lights only?


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## Serapis (Oct 17, 2010)

Yes, I do intend to finish off the grow using LEDs. I still think they are the future of grow lighting, however they need to get some penetration. The lights G.O.D. just got may do just that. They sure seem powerful enough in the pics.

I'm not abandoning LED, just going to use it elsewhere, maybe nursery for vegging. I need to raise some serious funds, my area is dry, there is a need I can fill, but i have to be able to keep turning it.

I'm looking at the Secret Jardin 150 for the 600W. It looks to be a nice tent.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> *My Decision:*
> 
> OK, I have made a decision on LED lighting.
> 
> ...


I am constantly vexed by you Serapis. You change your mind and jump back an forth too quickly it seems.

Was this always your intention to get these weights or is this just a recent development? IIRC you were just growing for personal use, right?

If you were trying to pull those kinds of weights for the beginning, you were on the wrong track from the get go it seems.

Do you plan on just revamping the current space?


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Wish you the best man! Hope you know what you are doing, I know you think you do


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Yes, I do intend to finish off the grow using LEDs. I still think they are the future of grow lighting, however they need to get some penetration. The lights G.O.D. just got may do just that. They sure seem powerful enough in the pics.
> 
> I'm not abandoning LED, just going to use it elsewhere, maybe nursery for vegging. I need to raise some serious funds, my area is dry, there is a need I can fill, but i have to be able to keep turning it.
> 
> I'm looking at the Secret Jardin 150 for the 600W. It looks to be a nice tent.


Secret jardin closet are great for indoor growing.Anything from dr 100 up shouold be fine for the 600.Since you are getting a air cooled hood just have a small fan for intake and use a strong extractor fan to exhaust the room and the light by leaving one side open.I do this and my temps do not pass 82.It usually stays betwe3en 78-81.


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## Ryan123456 (Oct 17, 2010)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/ eBayISAPI.dll...m=330461119584

Is this what you used?


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## Serapis (Oct 17, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> I am constantly vexed by you Serapis. You change your mind and jump back an forth too quickly it seems.
> 
> Was this always your intention to get these weights or is this just a recent development? IIRC you were just growing for personal use, right?
> 
> ...


I've had two roommates move out within last two months. Without going into my personal business any further than that, I need to do what I need to do. If you read anything more into my statements than that, I'm not sure what to tell ya. I have empty rooms, so I'm setting up a tent grow with the 600. I hope that is ok?


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I've had two roommates move out within last two months. Without going into my personal business any further than that, I need to do what I need to do. If you read anything more into my statements than that, I'm not sure what to tell ya. I have empty rooms, so I'm setting up a tent grow with the 600. I hope that is ok?


 I have a friend on here who did his first grow with a 690 watt hps and yielded 395 grams.Whats that 2 oz short of a pound.It was his first grow so you know its good.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 17, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I've had two roommates move out within last two months. Without going into my personal business any further than that, I need to do what I need to do. If you read anything more into my statements than that, I'm not sure what to tell ya. I have empty rooms, so I'm setting up a tent grow with the 600. I hope that is ok?


Well that means things changed. That's what I was asking. You didn't say roomies moved out, that means you can use additional space instead of the same space you have already designed.

I wasn't trying to pry, things just weren't adding up. Your post made it sound more that LED wasn't gonna cut it and you had higher hopes than you were going to get with your current setup so you are switching to HPS. Growing isn't an overnight thing though. Even if you setup the 600w today AND had plants ready to go in, it's gonna be nearly 3 months before it is ready to be "moved". I feel for ya bro. Why not just get roomies to replace the old ones for now?

What's the issue you are having with clones? Have you looked back at the method I had in my thread? That has worked 100% for me.


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## TTT3 (Oct 17, 2010)

So your pretty much using christmas lights? Sorry I'm new to this just asking.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 17, 2010)

TTT3 said:


> So your pretty much using christmas lights? Sorry I'm new to this just asking.


You better read the whole thread


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## Serapis (Oct 17, 2010)

TTT3 said:


> So your pretty much using christmas lights? Sorry I'm new to this just asking.


Welcome back! 


I will Lucky..


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## Serapis (Oct 18, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> What's the issue you are having with clones? Have you looked back at the method I had in my thread? That has worked 100% for me.


I just went back and read it again and I'll give it a shot. I thought for sure these last ones were going to make it. They hit on 10 days and starting going yellow fast, still no roots coming out of bottom of rock wool. I'll get a razor blade, I have been using my small Fiskars to take cuttings and then cutting again at 45 degrees. I also don't have a propogation heating pad.... YET... I will order one. My tall dome sucks, it has a shitty seal on the trays I may look for something different there too. The top of my dome shouldn't be drying out so often.


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## Retris (Oct 18, 2010)

How long are you waiting from when you take the trimmings to putting some root gel and putting in the rock wool?


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## Serapis (Oct 18, 2010)

Retris said:


> How long are you waiting from when you take the trimmings to putting some root gel and putting in the rock wool?


I don't wait at all. My actual actions should be OK, it's something I'm not doing.... heating pad maybe? They look great for 7-10 days and then I lose them. I spray strictly water on them until they start to yellow, then I use a weak foliar feed. They kept getting yellow til going completely pale and dying. If I pull one out of rock wool, it has nubs for roots, no established roots. Two of these may make it, but it's weak... the side shoots are growing up even though all the other vegetation has died off.

It could also be that tops don't root well. Next time will be side branches that I take for clones. I really don't want to pay $37 for every 5 seeds plus have to rely on snail mail.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I don't wait at all. My actual actions should be OK, it's something I'm not doing.... heating pad maybe? They look great for 7-10 days and then I lose them. I spray strictly water on them until they start to yellow, then I use a weak foliar feed. They kept getting yellow til going completely pale and dying. If I pull one out of rock wool, it has nubs for roots, no established roots. Two of these may make it, but it's weak... the side shoots are growing up even though all the other vegetation has died off.
> 
> It could also be that tops don't root well. Next time will be side branches that I take for clones. I really don't want to pay $37 for every 5 seeds plus have to rely on snail mail.


 You do not need a heating pad for clones.To some people they help but i never used that.I just make sure it stays humid and slice some of the bottom of the cutting so roots can grow thru that.Also i trim the leaves as well.Im sure you will be able to get it soon.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Oct 18, 2010)

Also ... if the clone is getting fed through foliar feeding, it doesn't encourage it to grow roots to find food.
Give them a choice, grow roots to find food or ... starve.

As you also may have realised, tops don't root as well as side branches.

Not wanting to pay high prices for seeds is why I will make Feminised seeds for every strain that I grow ... as well as not having the space for multiple "mothers in waiting".


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I just went back and read it again and I'll give it a shot. I thought for sure these last ones were going to make it. They hit on 10 days and starting going yellow fast, still no roots coming out of bottom of rock wool. I'll get a razor blade, I have been using my small Fiskars to take cuttings and then cutting again at 45 degrees. I also don't have a propogation heating pad.... YET... I will order one. My tall dome sucks, it has a shitty seal on the trays I may look for something different there too. The top of my dome shouldn't be drying out so often.


A standard electric blanket will help somewhat. I used one until I bought a pad... Just a tip.


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## Serapis (Oct 18, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> Like I said way earlier ITT, and pointed out by another poster, you have a problem and are clueless what it is. The 600w HPS will only make your problem 10x worse.


The 600W hps is going into a 4' x4' Secret Jardin grow tent. 4 clip on fans, one large vortex centrifugal and 2 inlines.... it's not rocket science. What I am clueless about is why you bother hanging around LED threads?


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> The 600W hps is going into a 4' x4' Secret Jardin grow tent. 4 clip on fans, one large vortex centrifugal and 2 inlines.... it's not rocket science. What I am clueless about is why you bother hanging around LED threads?


Shit you might not even need all those fans.


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## Serapis (Oct 18, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> Shit you might not even need all those fans.


 I bought a fan dimmer as well  Those Vortex fans can be loud and they move a lot of air. The inlines are to supply fresh air to and pull from the light hood. I'm just going to try to pull fresh air through first. The tent should make this easy.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I bought a fan dimmer as well  Those Vortex fans can be loud and they move a lot of air. The inlines are to supply fresh air to and pull from the light hood. I'm just going to try to pull fresh air through first. The tent should make this easy.


Okay sounds good.So are you going to use the vortex fan to cool the hood and growroom?All you need to do is leave one side open so the air from the growroom is being exhausted with the heat from the bulb.After that you can use duct booster fans to keep air coming in and a second exhaust.Its up to you.But this is what i do and my temps do not even go over 82


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## Serapis (Oct 18, 2010)

The Vortex fan will drawing air through the carbon filter and exhausting the tent. The inlines are to pull air through the light hood. I'm hoping 250 CFM with air pulled from a 75 degree room will be enough for the bulb.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 18, 2010)

With only a 600w load, 75* intake and 250CFM the very best you can maintain is 83*. Add anything to that equation (inside the tent) and the 83* quickly goes up. Vent to the room where you are intaking air and you're looking at temps going to 90*.

Bottom line 250CFM will not be enough.


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 18, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> With only a 600w load, 75* intake and 250CFM the very best you can maintain is 83*. Add anything to that equation (inside the tent) and the 83* quickly goes up. Vent to the room where you are intaking air and you're looking at temps going to 90*.
> 
> Bottom line 250CFM will not be enough.


Okay the 250 cfm will be enough to pull air out the room especially if he is adding inlines to exhaust the hood seperate.Im positive he can make it work if anything it will need a minor adjustment.I use duct booster fans on my hps and my tent stays at 78-79 constantly if it goes over 80 the high is 82.Im pulling air with a 6 in duct booster fan for 25 dollars and 2 4 in fans to exhaust and intake.oscillating fan in the room for air circulation.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 18, 2010)

WBW - What is the ambiant temp at your intakes? Where do you vent to?

FTR oscillating fans add heat to the room they do not reduce heat, only move warm air around.


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> I just went back and read it again and I'll give it a shot. I thought for sure these last ones were going to make it. They hit on 10 days and starting going yellow fast, still no roots coming out of bottom of rock wool. I'll get a razor blade, I have been using my small Fiskars to take cuttings and then cutting again at 45 degrees. I also don't have a propogation heating pad.... YET... I will order one. My tall dome sucks, it has a shitty seal on the trays I may look for something different there too. The top of my dome shouldn't be drying out so often.


My dome has a bad seal too, I just spray it more often. As soon as I added heat and cotton, I had instant success!


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## luckyskindaguy (Oct 18, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> Yet another LED Fail, good luck controling heat with your 600w HPS, oh and the new digital balasts have a specific sine wave sig that shows as a spike on FLIR.
> 
> FWIW the Daisy ezcloner is simple enough for even you to use.


I knew this was coming as soon as you said you were getting a HPS light, lol. Predictable!


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## wyteberrywidow (Oct 18, 2010)

Bonzi Lighthouse said:


> WBW - What is the ambiant temp at your intakes? Where do you vent to?
> 
> FTR oscillating fans add heat to the room they do not reduce heat, only move warm air around.


Ambient temp is 75.I vent into a crawl space in my basement.I know what the oscillating fan does i said that to prove a point.That it can be done and since he will be using a much more stronger fan than me im sure he will be able to control the temps.Either way once everything is setup im sure he will know what to do.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 18, 2010)

wyteberrywidow said:


> I vent into a crawl space in my basement.


This is key, if you vent to where you are drawing air from all it does it heat up the AT at your intake.


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## Serapis (Oct 18, 2010)

luckyskindaguy said:


> I knew this was coming as soon as you said you were getting a HPS light, lol. Predictable!


Yep... That was why I was carefully watching my words. I never stated the LEDs don't work. They do work, we have plenty of pictures to show that they do. The flowering on my mains are going nuts. The buds are going to be beautiful. Hardly a fail.


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## Bonzi Lighthouse (Oct 18, 2010)

Your actions speak far louder than your words.

Still waiting on the pure LED dry weight


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## mr2shim (Oct 18, 2010)

You can tell by reading his threads, "1 CFL + 8 Clones" is a good example. He's a natural douchebag.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 18, 2010)

I think you should stop being so defensive as Potroast suggested. You really aren't into healthy debate. It seems like when you are challenged, and then your only real response is "Fuck trolls", "Where's your grow", and "You're an ass". Just chill, man. Your reactions seem to be what fuels a lot of this fire... Just sayin.


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## oOBe RyeOo (Oct 18, 2010)

Serapis said:


> Have I even harvested yet jackass? Didn't I just say recently we have 4-5 weeks to go moron? Get a fucking clue.... All you've done is make an ass out of yourself and argue with others.
> 
> Where is your grow?
> 
> My next grow WILL be in the journal area to prevent jack asses like yourself from feeding on other people's grows with your fucked up commentary. Many that posted on this thread will be welcome to post in the journal. A dick head or two will not be posting...


I think you need this weed! 

Chill out man... you're so high strung all the time.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 18, 2010)

Wow... You sure are hot and cold. Serapis, if everyone reacted like you, this site would fucking suck. It's called "healthy debate". It's nothing to get bent out of shape over.


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## GreenNerd420 (Oct 18, 2010)

... Then perhaps you should have started a "Grow Journal"? I don't know, man. I received an infraction because of your constant crying, and yet you can sit here and call me a "motherfucker"... I'll just stop responding or trying to understand you. We obviously don't see eye to eye at all...


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## potroast (Oct 18, 2010)

closed, the OP cannot stop insulting other members.


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