# Sickmeds William's Wonder: grow journal. review and all things Wiliams Wonder



## Jogro (Nov 21, 2012)

Well, after quite a long wait, Williams Wonder seeds finally are available again. 

The breeder is Sickmeds seeds, a new breeder working out of Spain, and he's offering regular seeds that are supposedly derived right from beans he grew out of an old pack of Super Sativa Seed Club seedstock. 

This breeder "Red" saw some of my posts on Williams Wonder (see below), and asked if I would be willing to grow out some of his ceeds and give an honest report. 

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/551726-william-wonder-f3-sickmeds.html#post7834010

Well, how could I say "no" to that? Ever since trying this one about 15 years ago, I've always wanted to grow it, and here is my chance. 

Grow journal coming soon. . .

In the meantime, I'm also opening this up as an "everything Williams Wonder" thread. Post any experiences you have with the strain. . growing it, smoking it, longing for it. Questions are welcome. 

All I ask is that you keep it civil.


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## Jogro (Nov 21, 2012)

So what is this Williams' Wonder anyway? Here is an abbreviated history I've managed to put together from the internet:

Williams Wonder is a famous strain that supposedly dates back to the 1970s. Like many of these Americanized strains, the true history of the strain is somewhat unclear, but some believe this is a pure pre-Soviet invasion Afghani (ie indica) landrace that developed in an isolated area such as on a mountain, so it didn't interbreed with other Afghan landrace strains and managed to maintain some unique characteristics. 

The strain was imported into the USA and then acclimated to growing in the Pacific Northwest. The name is supposedly a reference to Williams Oregon, where the strain was first grown outdoors, and supposedly still is as an "heirloom" strain to this day. 

Williams Wonder was first sold commercially by the SSSC (&#8220;Super Sativa Seed Club&#8221 in the early 1980s, and original SSSC seeds are highly prized and hoarded by a small number of old-time collectors.

After SSSC went belly up, for years, this strain was "clone only", though it does occasionally turn up for sale at CO and CA dispensaries. 

Commercial seeds were re-introduced by Rezdog at Reservoir seeds, who took one of these "elite clone only&#8221; cuts of Williams Wonder, and backcrossed it with a modern diesel-type strain it to create his own Williams Wonder line. Ultimately he based many of the strains in his catalog on various Williams-Wonder hybrids before his recent arrest led to dissolution of the company. (I heard he beat the criminal charges against him. . .if anyone knows more on this, please post). 

Reeferman of Reeferman seeds offered Williams Wonder ceeds for a short while until his company went defunct a few years ago. He has recently re-opened for business after a several year hiatus, but he's not offering William's Wonder at this time. 

BC Bud Depot lists Williams Wonder seeds for sale on its website, but none of the seedbanks that carry their ceeds carry it, that company has a somewhat checkered reputation, and I have not been able to locate any grow reports of his version. 


DNA Genetics offers a strain called "60 day wonder" which is supposed to be William's wonder crossed with Lowryder to make it autoflowering, then backcrossed over multiple generations to stabilize it. I've never grown this, but by report, its not fully stabilized (it gives varying phenos), but at least some of the phenos do have that crippling potency the strain is known for. Also, despite the name, reportedly typically takes 70-74 days from seed to fully mature. 

Some people still think William's Wonder is one of the best (if not "the best") indica strain of all time. I can say its certainly one of the strongest indicas I've ever tried, and probably THE strongest. 

For example, Dru West, Oregon medical grower, consultant, and author of the "West Coast Masters" grow manual, keeps Williams Wonder as one of the only strains he grows, and claims its the "only indica anyone would ever need". 

Here is a review from another poster on this board in the "one hit quitter" thread (well worth a read, by the way); another poster also cites this one as a favorite down to post #65:
https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/551301-list-any-one-hitter-quiter-4.html#post7829474

The strain itself is known for its crippling narcotic-like potency, somewhat unique (for an indica) floral/citrus scent, and high yield. I think its the combination of potency, flavor, high yield, and relative unavailability that have made this strain a sort of &#8220;holy grail&#8221; for indica lovers.


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## Jogro (Nov 21, 2012)

And here is the ad copy from the Super Sativa Seed Club, circa 1989. "Plantlet method" refers to "Sea of Green", just the latter term wasnt' in wide use until the early 1990s. :

*Super Sativa Seed Club - William's Wonder*

M31
*A special Indica Indoor hybrid. Very suitable for commercial indoor growing when making use of the plantlet method. Pick out the plants you like the best and reproduce. Heavy yields of extremely resinous buds. The buds are, due to their structure and the amount of resin on them, weighting very heavy. Small, compact plants. You can easily grow 4 crops a year indoors. Experienced growers can yield 1500-2000 grams per square meter per year. Two people could not finish a joint. The plant on the picture has been taken outdoors after flowering was inducted indoors. The plant turned purple because of a very cold fall. Williams Wonder can't be grown outdoors without being inducted to flower artificially previously.


*


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## Jogro (Nov 21, 2012)

So that's enough background, I think. Without further ado, the actual grow journal.

Day 0:

Ceeds arrived in a plain envelope from Europe, simple yet discreet. 

The ceed packaging itself is classy. On the front side is the strain name, and on the back, an image of the plant with an embossed hemp seed, presumably to prevent counterfeiting. 

The ceeds themselves are packed in a small plastic resealable test tube, with a plug of cotton, and then some dessicant on top to keep them dry. 

Nice touch, and frankly a lot of the bigger name seed houses don't do as good a job here. 

Ceeds themselves look great; they're big, dark, and have the tiger stripes that everyone is looking for. So far so good.


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## greenghost420 (Nov 21, 2012)

where did you order from?


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## Jogro (Nov 21, 2012)

greenghost420 said:


> where did you order from?


Right now ceeds are available on Cannazon, and directly from the breeder (which is where I got mine from).

They're going to be shortly available from another big ceed bank soon, but I forget which one.


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## Jogro (Nov 22, 2012)

OK, started two random ceeds from the pack into soil in 16 ounce cups. 

I cover the plants with 1/4 inch of soil, mist heavily on top with water, and put a plastic bag over the top so they don't dry out. Cups are put about eight inches under a 13(!) watt CFL, just to give them something to "aim" at when they break soil.

Soil I'm using here is a custom blend. Base is made from Miracle Gro "Moisture control", which is a potting mix with coco coir, an added wetting agent, and included slow-release nutrients pre-added. I screen it to take out bark/wood chips, then cut it with about 30% peat moss 10% perlite, and 5% vermiculite to create a nice airy mix. 

Mock all you like. . .the mix works awesome. I'm sure there are better mixes available off the shelf, but not in my area, and this one is easy and cheap to make up.


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## Jogro (Nov 23, 2012)

And here are our baby seedlings. 2/2 broke through dirt and started with their little leaflets less than 72 hours after first putting in dirt.

This is about as vigorous a germination as I've ever seen. . .that's a good start.


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## kentuckyboy (Nov 24, 2012)

I don't have any personal experience with this strain, but my good friend swears that Williams Wonder was the best strain that he has ever smoked. I know this guy has smoked some really good weed before too. I would love to grow this strain out if it is a true representation of the Williams Wonder of folklore. Lol! I can't wait to see what it does for you. I'm subbed...Good Luck!


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## Jogro (Nov 27, 2012)

kentuckyboy said:


> I don't have any personal experience with this strain, but my good friend swears that Williams Wonder was the best strain that he has ever smoked. I know this guy has smoked some really good weed before too. I would love to grow this strain out if it is a true representation of the Williams Wonder of folklore. Lol! I can't wait to see what it does for you. I'm subbed...Good Luck!


Thanks. 

In fact the major reason I'm growing this is to find out the truth of your question: is this the real deal, or not? Fortunately, I have actually tried the real thing back in the day before (see above), so hopefully I'll be able to shed a little bit of light on this when I'm done. 

A lot of "old school smokers" still claim that Williams' Wonder is the best thing they've ever tried and is as good as anything around today. If you're looking at commercially available lines from the late '80s/early '90s, by almost all accounts, this one is one of the best.

In my opinion, from a grower's perspective, its not that this strain has the highest yield, best flavor, or absolute highest potency but its one of those rare indica strains that delivers an awesome combination of all three things. Most of the potent indica strains are more "hashy" than fruity, and its also pretty hard to find any high-potency strain that is also high yielding. 

The seller, Sickmeds, has posted this analysis on their website:



> https://www.sickmeds.com/cannabis-seeds/#willywonder
> 
> Cannabinoids:
> THC 20.5%, THCV 1.0%, CBD 0.7%, CBG 1.3%, CBN 0.4%, CBC 1.1%


Now, he didn't say how he got the numbers, but assuming they're correct, this puts his version of William's Wonder at 25% total cannabinoids. 

Not only is that as good as most of today's "super strains" (ie all the OG/Kushes/Diesels/etc), if not better, but I think anything in that range is probably approaching the genetic maximum potential of cannabinoids you can get from cannabis flowers.


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## truepunk87 (Nov 27, 2012)

Subbed..... Older guy I used to work with said it was the best weed he ever grew... He'd lost his cut some years before and seemed to really miss it. He said outside the buds could get as big as footballs....


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## Jogro (Nov 28, 2012)

Update: Veg day 6 (day 9 from planting ceeds).

Seedlings have been "upgraded" from 13W CFL to 23W CFL to reduce stretching a bit and are growing vigorously. Put a straw by one to help prop it up. Also started gently flexing the stems of the seedlings to toughen them up a bit.

Note the fat indica-like leaflets. So far so good. . .

View attachment 2423834View attachment 2423835


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## raiderman (Nov 29, 2012)

look ns i'll subb,chk it out.rdr.


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## sonar (Dec 1, 2012)

This looks interesting.


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## EirikN (Dec 3, 2012)

subscribed! im also looking at this strain  good luck!


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## Jogro (Dec 5, 2012)

Update time. Here is one of the plants at day 13 from planting (10 since sprout). The other looks nearly identical, but is a bit taller. 

They're putting a perfect symmetrical indica "box" shape with fat leaflets, and give off a distinct skunky smell when touched/rubbed. 

I've also since put them under a 45W CFL where they will remain until they're ready for flower.


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## Jogro (Dec 7, 2012)

Day 17 of vegetative growth. 

Seedlings have been transplanted to 2.5 liter buckets and are kept about 4 inches under a single 45W CFL. They'll stay in these intermediate containers until they show gender before going into flowering. 

Meanwhile growth is vigorous, leaves are nice and dark green, and plants are smelling serious skunky, especially if touched or rubbed. Good bushy structure forming. . .we'll see how well that holds up. 

Again, two plants are highly similar, one is just about 1" taller than the other.


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## Jogro (Dec 11, 2012)

Red from Sickmeds saw my early comment about potency, and sent me a copy of the third party lab analysis he had done on his William's Wonder: 



Without getting into too much detail here, Alpha-cat is a reputable European lab, and the individual running it has significant credentials and extensive background and experience in testing cannabis. The results, I think, speak for themselves. 

Their "chemotype" is a proprietary way they use to classify samples based on both presence/ratios of individual cannabinoids. To me this is absolutely fascinating, because they've taken all the guesswork out of the subjective "high quality" from different strains, and categorized them based on actual cannabinoid ratios. This is the only lab I've seen that is actually doing anything like this. 

In this case, because of its significant CBD and CBG fractions, the William's Wonder tested out in their "hashplant" category, predicting a classical stoney/narcotic/sleepy/muscle relaxant hash-like effect. 

Makes perfect sense, given that this strain is probably a pure Afghani indica.


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## Jogro (Dec 16, 2012)

Day 28 (from sprout):

Plants still under 18-6 lighting with 45W CFL. 

Topped plants about a week ago. No fancy "FIM", just pinched off the top shoot to create two dominant tops. 

One of two plants has female "preflower" pistils at a few nodes, and is definitely female. The other doesn't, I'm assuming its a male. 

This one will be shortly transplanted into its final 3 gallon pot, and will go into 12-12 flowering as soon as I have room in the flowering area. 



I've also taken off a few of the bottom branches for clones using the sophisticated Jogro cloning technique:

a. Chop stem at 45 degree angle with razor and strip off lower leaves. 
b. Dip in rooting powder (optional, but I have it, so might as well use it).
c. Drop in cup of water and place 18" under CFL bulb. 
d. Wait.


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## Jogro (Dec 23, 2012)

Here's a clone 11 days after cutting. 

Again, its cut stem with razor, strip leaves with same, dip bottom into rooting powder, stick in cup of water under light, wait. 

Fancy cloners can certainly be helpful, but they may not be necessary. 



(No coffee was harmed in the making of this clone).


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## Jogro (Dec 25, 2012)

Plants have had 40 days total veg time; now its time for flower. 

These were deliberately kept small during veg; I'm sure they could have gotten larger in bigger pots under more light, had I wanted to do that. 

Female plant was put into 3 gallon bucket for 12-12 hour flowering under 250W HPS. 



Plant has been previously topped 1x, and I opened the plant up a bit using "low stress training" (back in the day, we used to call that "bending") to let a little more light in and hopefully bulk up the colas a bit. Put a little piece of tape in the middle to help keep the spread. Note that the leaves are actually dark green; the HPS lighting is distorting the color and making them seem more yellow.


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## greenghost420 (Dec 26, 2012)

i have started cloning the same way but without any gel or powders, just throw it in the water and shake the water every day or 2 for oxygen and i had roots in 8 days last time!


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## Jogro (Dec 26, 2012)

greenghost420 said:


> i have started cloning the same way but without any gel or powders, just throw it in the water and *shake the water every day or 2 for oxygen* and i had roots in 8 days last time!


But that's so much extra work. 

OK, seriously, some strains are easier to clone than others, and it also depends what part of the plant you're trying to clone and when. If you're trying to clone a still soft/green branch when the plant is in rapid veg growth, it usually takes off pretty fast. 

This one seemed to root pretty easily.


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## Hitch (Dec 27, 2012)

Awesome thread. Am growing the previously mentioned 60 Day Wonder (as you know). Hopefully these become commercially available soon so I can try them....Although I do have one question/observation...

I have heard of the Super Sativa Seed Club...but WW is an indica? Strange that one of the most famous strains from a "Sativa" club should be an indica, no?


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## Jogro (Dec 27, 2012)

Hitch said:


> Awesome thread. Am growing the previously mentioned 60 Day Wonder (as you know). Hopefully these become commercially available soon so I can try them....


They're commercially available NOW. . .or at least they were until recently. They appear to be sold out at Cannazon and Sea of Seeds. 

I know they will be coming back to these other sites eventually, but if you're interested, you might try contacting the breeder directly. . .they may (or may not) still have some beans available for sale. 



> Although I do have one question/observation...
> 
> I have heard of the Super Sativa Seed Club...but WW is an indica? Strange that one of the most famous strains from a "Sativa" club should be an indica, no?


First of all, while today we take for granted that there are dozens of ceed-banks operating all over the world, Super Sativa Seed Club was the first company of its sort to commercially sell cannabis ceeds globally. Even though SSSC has been defunct since the early 1990s, more than 20 years now, you can get an excellent historical sense of what they once offered here in this thread: http://tinyurl.com/d8nn2df 

The company name itself was just a just a name, not a description of their catalog. If you take a look, you'll see that despite the name, the SSSC commercial lineup included several pure indica lines (including Afghan #1, William's Wonder, etc) as well as a number of Indica/sativa hybrids. Some of their mainstays are still around and/or famous (eg Afghan #1, Skunk #1, Durban Poison, etc). 

The business was effectively taken over by the Sensi ceed bank run by Ben Dronkers. So the legacy of the SSSC lives on, at least in descendant form today, even if the original company is gone. 

On Williams' Wonder, you can read the history of that line at the top of this thread.  My understanding is that despite what some think/suggest SSSC didn't actually create this line, they just sold the ceeds. 

From having smoked it back in the mid 1990s, I can tell you the effect is classic indica couchlock. In terms of growing it, so far everything suggests an indica, from the wide dark green leaves, to the short bushy "Christmas tree" plant structure.


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## Jogro (Dec 27, 2012)

Here's another shot of the plant 6 days after starting 12-12:


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## Hitch (Dec 28, 2012)

Jogro said:


> http://tinyurl.com/d8nn2df


Great link man. Thanks


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## greenghost420 (Dec 28, 2012)

awesome link! still reading it all....


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## Natural Gas (Dec 29, 2012)

Sick Meds now at Hemp Depot http://hempdepot.ca/ Williams Wonder not available atm...Tried to place on line order directly w/ Sick Meds 2wks ago. Got a very timely reply stating I would be contacted after first of the year...FWIW


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## Jogro (Dec 29, 2012)

Natural Gas said:


> Sick Meds now at Hemp Depot http://hempdepot.ca/ Williams Wonder not available atm...Tried to place on line order directly w/ Sick Meds 2wks ago. Got a very timely reply stating I would be contacted after first of the year...FWIW


Thanks for the tip. 

Here are some of the Sickmeds stock images, lifted from the Hemp Depot website:



Fairly massive buds there; I can see why this one has a reputation of being a heavy yielder.


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## truepunk87 (Jan 1, 2013)

All my pictures are gone too


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## Jogro (Jan 1, 2013)

truepunk87 said:


> All my pictures are gone too


I see that. Bummer. 

Any idea what's going on here?
Mods? Anyone? 

Is it a temporary glitch?
Were the pictures accidentally deleted by the server?
Deliberately deleted by the mods?

I can deal with any of the above, I'd just like to know what's going on. 

There isn't a lot of point in finishing this journal (or my others) if I can't post more pictures, or if any images I do post are quickly deleted.


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## Hitch (Jan 1, 2013)

Jogro said:


> I see that. Bummer.
> 
> Any idea what's going on here?
> Mods? Anyone?
> ...


Oddly enough, they're not all gone. It's sort of hit or miss. 

I've admin'ed several vBulletin forums, but they were all warez forums so we don't host images. Question....If you go to "edit" the post, do you see the images in your editor? God I hate WYSIWYG editing.

Images are sometimes hosted on a separate part of a server...could be down. Hopefully that's all and they're not just gone.


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## Jogro (Jan 2, 2013)

OK, forum mod told me there is some sort of system glitch thats preventing some of the uploaded images from displaying, and they're working on fixing it. 

Hopefully this isn't an external hack, and will be fixed up soon. 

Anyway, after this gets fixed, I'll post some updates.

Edit: This is frustrating . . .here is a new test image to see if this issue has been fixed yet:


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## Jogro (Jan 2, 2013)

Grrrrrrr. The image I just uploaded appears to be in my attachments. . .every OTHER one appears to be gone. . .ouch. I hate to have to re-upload and repost everything, though maybe I will have to do that if RIU has lost these images permanently. 

In the meantime, here is day 13 of flowering. Plant has done a little stretching, but not much, and nice buds are starting to form. 

View attachment 2464475


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## Jogro (Jan 2, 2013)

Day 18 flowering:



Flowers are already starting to get resiny less than three weeks in. That's a good sign I think.

Edit: Forgot to mention, flowers are putting off a distinct citrus-like scent now, a bit like tangerines.


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## Jogro (Jan 3, 2013)

OK, because of the crash, I'm re-uploading all the pictures: 

Original ad copy for Williams' Wonder from from Super Sativa Seedbank, circa late 1980s:


Sickmeds lab test report


Sickmeds stock bud images:


Sickmeds ceed packs:


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## Jogro (Jan 3, 2013)

Here is the entire beginning of the grow, recapped: 

Ceeds:


3 days after watering ceeds: 


9 days:


13 days, 18-6 under CFL:


17 days:


28 days:


Day 1 flowering 12-12 under 250W HPS:


Day 2 flower, with "low stress training":


Day 6 flower:


And that brings us up to date. Sorry about the reposts, but I have no idea if/when the images I posted earlier will come back up again, and I don't want anyone coming here for info not to have it.


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## Jogro (Jan 7, 2013)

End of flowering recap:

Day 13 flower:


Day 18 flower:


And update:

Day 24 flower:


Plant is staying low and compact with very little stretch, maybe 50%. Overall shape would be a classic indica "christmas tree", though I've opened it up by topping and with my LST. Buds are starting to gain mass already and resin production is fairly high for only three weeks in, with resin already covering the bud ("sugar") leaves and parts of the fan leaves too. 

The scent is citrus like and sweet, maybe a combination of tangerines and grapefruit. Its not overwhelming, but not "mild" either. . .sort of medium. I remembered smelling something like this before, but had a bit of trouble remembering. Then it hit me:



I find it kind of fitting that this old-school strain from the late 1980s happens to smell like a popular beverage from the late 1980s! Anyway, for those who haven't had the "pleasure" Ecto cooler was basically a kids tangerine flavored fruit punch, only for marketing reasons colored green like the "slimer" character from the movie Ghostbusters. (Green? hmm. . .coincidence?).


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## truepunk87 (Jan 7, 2013)

That drink was the shit when I was like 4 lol..... I miss it now  who ya gonna call??? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!


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## Jogro (Jan 7, 2013)

truepunk87 said:


> That drink was the shit when I was like 4 lol..... I miss it now  who ya gonna call??? GHOSTBUSTERS!!!


Even when it came out, I was really probably too old to be drinking it, but at some point I did try some and it was pretty good! If you want something you can buy in the story today, juicy juice orange-tangerine is pretty close, though not unnaturally green like the Hi-C ecto cooler:







Anyway, I don't remember the actual bud tasting like tangerines when I tried it in '95. I vaguely remember that the bud was sort of red colored (plant was probably grown outdoors and had purpled a bit), and it had a floral scent. I do specifically remember my friend commenting at the time on how resinous it was and pulling out one huge ceed which he gifted to me. I was growing even back then, though the ceed never germinated. 

Then again, I only tried it once, and I didn't spend much time with the actual bud other than looking at it and getting one whiff before my friend shredded and rolled it up. I also didn't get that first "clean" hit where all the flavor comes through. 

Every contemporary account of this strain I've ever seen has specifically mentioned a sweet citrus like scent, and this plant most definitely has that, so we're off to a good start here. 

As a side note, I just learned that Rare Dankness offers something it calls "A+ Wonder", which is a fittingly named cross of an original Afghan and William's Wonder.


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## HighGradeJ (Jan 8, 2013)

I'm in for this one too nice thread!


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## Jogro (Jan 10, 2013)

Update: Day 28 flower


Here are some side shots to show bud development. Odor is strong now, and I think bud size is pretty impressive for 4 weeks into flowering. This plant looks like its going to live up to the William Wonder reputation for huge buds:



And here are some closeups:


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## greenghost420 (Jan 10, 2013)

veddy nice!


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## Jogro (Jan 14, 2013)

Day 37 flower:

Plant is staying compact and bushy and continuing to just pack on the weight. The flowers are growing together turning each branch into a big fat cola, and smell is proportionately strong. Resin production is impressive; you can see it extending out onto the fan leaves in the second image below.


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## CK. (Jan 18, 2013)

Very nice grow, and very productive for 37 days too, I'll pull up a chair


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## steveat (Jan 20, 2013)

Maybe I missed something in the thread, but how can you be on day 37 if you started flower on Dec 26? I am on day 35 today for another plant and I flipped to 12/12 on Dec 15th.


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## disk1able (Jan 20, 2013)

Great journal, and thanks for the recap! ^^
She matured real quick and showing her curbs


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## Jogro (Jan 22, 2013)

steveat said:


> Maybe I missed something in the thread, but how can you be on day 37 if you started flower on Dec 26? I am on day 35 today for another plant and I flipped to 12/12 on Dec 15th.


I was wondering how long it would take for someone to notice and point this out. 

Congratulations, and thank you for asking. 

The answer is that I'm actually quite a bit further along in the actual grow than the journal suggests, and I'm playing "catch up" with the posts. That's why, for example, I posted the pictures from day 35 only four days after the pictures from day 28. Its also why my next post of day 47 is coming only eight days after day 37. 

There are a few reasons why I'm doing it this way, but without getting into them right now, consider that you'll get to see the end of this grow a bit sooner than you otherwise might have. Stick around, because I think its going to be worth it.


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## Jogro (Jan 22, 2013)

Day 47 of 12-12 flower: 

I'll let the pictures do most of the talking here. 

Vertical growth has basically stopped. The buds are still packing on weight and growing into big colas. 


Resin production is high:


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## Vanishingred (Jan 22, 2013)

Looking good Jogro! This Williams Wonder might actually live up to the hype. Great grow so far, man.


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## Natural Gas (Jan 22, 2013)

Great thread Jogro. Good read so thought I would contribute some additional good news...Michael, SickMeds, e-mailed Sunday, the 20th, that my standing order for William's Wonder, Bizarre & Green Crack filled and shipped today...Michael has limited fresh stock on hand and commitments to seedbanks...The seedbanks have wish lists to fill and avilable stock will quicklyl dry up...For those following this thread here is link to Sickmeds <[email protected]> to place an advance order...Additionally Jorge Cervantes spent yesterday, Monday, at SickMeds so good things happening for good folks...FWIW


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## Natural Gas (Jan 22, 2013)

Jogro said:


> Even when it came out, I was really probably too old to be drinking it, but at some point I did try some and it was pretty good! If you want something you can buy in the story today, juicy juice orange-tangerine is pretty close, though not unnaturally green like the Hi-C ecto cooler:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As an aside Woodhorse & Motarebel have combined efforts to produced a kickass Herijuana x Williams Wonder and a Trainwreck x William's Wonder...They have been around for sometime I still have the Hari x Wonder cross in my zip collection... a link; www.meduser.ca These too are good folks for the specialty seekers


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## Jogro (Jan 23, 2013)

Natural Gas said:


> Great thread Jogro. Good read so thought I would contribute some additional good news...Michael, SickMeds, e-mailed Sunday, the 20th, that my standing order for William's Wonder, Bizarre & Green Crack filled and shipped today...Michael has limited fresh stock on hand and commitments to seedbanks...The seedbanks have wish lists to fill and avilable stock will quicklyl dry up...For those following this thread here is link to Sickmeds <[email protected]> to place an advance order...Additionally Jorge Cervantes spent yesterday, Monday, at SickMeds so good things happening for good folks...FWIW


I didn't want to make this thread about the breeder per se, but I've had some conversation with him via email, and based on what he's told me, I'm firmly convinced both that he knows what he's doing and is doing things the correct way. One thing he said to me early on was (paraphrasing) "you just grow the plants; I think the genetics will speak for themselves". 



Natural Gas said:


> As an aside Woodhorse & Motarebel have combined efforts to produced a kickass Herijuana x Williams Wonder and a Trainwreck x William's Wonder...They have been around for sometime I still have the Hari x Wonder cross in my zip collection... a link; www.meduser.ca These too are good folks for the specialty seekers


Yeah, I've actually thought that particular cross would be a good one (herijuana x William Wonder). . .guess I'm not the only one!


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## Jogro (Jan 23, 2013)

Quick update. 

Day 50 flower:


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## cannavienna (Jan 24, 2013)

Very resinous, beautiful plants you got there. I just have one question: Is there a reason why you sometimes write 'ceeds' instead of seeds?


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## Hitch (Jan 24, 2013)

cannavienna said:


> Very resinous, beautiful plants you got there. I just have one question: Is there a reason why you sometimes write 'ceeds' instead of seeds?


I was wondering that too lol. I am going to guess its because when you type the word seeds, it becomes a hyperlink...am I right Jogro?


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## disk1able (Jan 24, 2013)

Hitch said:


> I was wondering that too lol. I am going to guess its because when you type the word seeds, it becomes a hyperlink...am I right Jogro?


Then its probably something to do with rankings on search engines i'd guess


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## theloadeddragon (Jan 24, 2013)

Great Job! This is definitely on my list of strains to grow, looks like a keeper to me.

What does it smell like?


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## Mysticwolf (Jan 24, 2013)

Along for the ride, looks...Sick!


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## Jogro (Jan 24, 2013)

cannavienna said:


> Very resinous, beautiful plants you got there. I just have one question: Is there a reason why you sometimes write 'ceeds' instead of seeds?





Hitch said:


> I was wondering that too lol. I am going to guess its because when you type the word seeds, it becomes a hyperlink...am I right Jogro?


Hitch is exactly right. 

I've got nothing against the board sponsor, per se, and in fact, I hear its quite good. 

I just don't like my posts being hijacked by the autolinker, so I just use "ceeds" with a "c" so my posts don't get full of ad links. 

Does this ceem cilly?


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## Jogro (Jan 24, 2013)

theloadeddragon said:


> Great Job! This is definitely on my list of strains to grow, looks like a keeper to me.
> 
> What does it smell like?


See earlier in thread with reference to Hi-C "ecto cooler". 

Bud smell started off as a sort of a sweet tangerine. 

As the grow has progressed that's still in there, but there is a little bit more of a grapefruit like scent in there too now, as well as some good ordinary "dank" weed smell too.


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## cannavienna (Jan 25, 2013)

Oh okay, thanks for clearing that up.


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## steveat (Jan 25, 2013)

I just placed my order for William's wonder myself. (10 Regular) Gonna try to breed them myself and having a lifetime of seeds 

How much longer do you think it will take till harvest?


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## greenghost420 (Jan 25, 2013)

where did you order from if you dont mind?


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## steveat (Jan 25, 2013)

You can order directly from sickmeds website. They don't have their ecommerce set up so you have to email them and place a manual order. The guys name is Mike.


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## Jogro (Jan 25, 2013)

Update, Day 55 flower:



Day 56 closeup:


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## Jogro (Jan 25, 2013)

steveat said:


> I just placed my order for William's wonder myself. (10 Regular) Gonna try to breed them myself and having a lifetime of seeds


Its a true-breeding line, so unlike many so-called "strains" in this case, the offspring should all be similar to the parents. 
Note that ceeds don't last forever, though if you store them cold and dry, they can remain viable for 20+ years fairly easily. 



> How much longer do you think it will take till harvest?


Breeder estimates 60-65 days, or roughly nine weeks. That's in-line with other flower times I've seen in other descriptions, and so far I'd say the plant is on track to finish on schedule. 
Without giving the game away, I tend to harvest late, but it won't be too much longer before the grow part of this journal is done. 



greenghost420 said:


> where did you order from if you dont mind?


As mentioned earlier in thread, I got my ceeds directly from breeder.


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## steveat (Jan 26, 2013)

Would this be considered Williams Wonder IBL or not yet? 

Also, from reading the description of WW, it says that you must grow it first indoors then move it outdoors. Sounds weird because the natural habitat of all MJ plants is outdoors..no? I guess through selection these things change..like the diff between wild and domestic dogs?


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## Jogro (Jan 27, 2013)

steveat said:


> Would this be considered Williams Wonder IBL or not yet?


To be clear, the term "IBL: (inbred line) means "true breeding"; in other words, like purebred dogs, if you cross two plants from an IBL all the offspring should have similar characteristics to the parents. Once upon a time, the goal of cannabis breeding was to create stable inbred lines. For reasons I won't go into now, that's fallen out of favor a bit. 

Making the answer as simple as I can, the real Williams Wonder is an inbred line. 

Not having grown a whole bunch of plants and crossed the offspring then compared them to the parents, I can't tell you from experience how this behaves, but since by every measure I have available to me this appears to be the "real deal" in seed form, yes, the Sickmeds version should be an IBL too. 



> Also, from reading the description of WW, it says that you must grow it first indoors then move it outdoors. Sounds weird because the natural habitat of all MJ plants is outdoors..no? I guess through selection these things change..like the diff between wild and domestic dogs?


Again, this is a potentially long discussion, but I'll say the following:

a. I've never hear of this particular issue with any other strain before, and bluntly, I don't believe its true. 

b. I'm not growing it outdoors, so I can't tell you. What I can tell you is that the plant went quickly into flowering after going to 12-12. No issue there at all. 

c. I know people *DO* grow it outdoors, and in fact, supposedly they still do up in Oregon where this one came from.


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## Jogro (Jan 28, 2013)

Day 61 flower, major update, part 1 of 2:

Coming into the last week of flowering, I've done a little "lollipopping", stripping many of the larger fan leaves. This lets a little more light into the bottom part of the plant to help lower bud development, and also this late in flowering, the fan leaves start to turn yellow and die anyway.

Note the absolutely massive cola size. I pruned off the lowest branches early in the grow, and the rest of the plant has basically transformed almost entirely into giant heavy colas. The colas are so dense that I put an extra fan in there a few weeks ago to help prevent bud rot. Anyway, the reputation of this plant as a heavy yielder appears well deserved:








Weather has gotten a bit colder, with temps dipping down to about 62F in the grow room during the dark period, and I'm starting to see a tiny bit of purple on the fan leaves. Not nearly enough for true "purpling" and the buds are still green, but worth mentioning. This one probably would go more purple with colder weather. . .but I'm not going to bother. More important, note the resin development in the second shot of the large fan leaf:


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## Jogro (Jan 28, 2013)

Day 61 flower, update 2 of 2

Overall resin development, still impressive. Second shot was taken under "normal" light for a better look. Note that probably 80% of the "hairs" are brown and the majority of trichrome heads are now white, so we're getting close to finish. I'd say maybe a week, give or take. 








On very careful inspection of the plants, I also noticed a few early male "bananas" on the lowest buds. You can see a cluster of 2-3 of these in the dead center of the "green" image, above. I probably would never have noticed them if I weren't looking over the plant super-carefully with a magnifying glass looking for bud rot (which, thankfully, I didn't get). 

At no point did this plant get light in its dark period, and the plant hasn't gone above 78F in more than four weeks. So I can't chalk this up to heat or light stress. 

Lots of strains will put out a few male flowers at the end of flowering; this may be one of them. Also, being on the lowest buds, maybe its a case of "dark" stress. . .ie the lowest buds are getting less light than the top buds, and maybe this is the problem. I contacted the breeder about this, and for what its worth, he told me that he's never seen any of his plants do this before. 

Anyway, there are just a few of these, they just popped up, and none of them have opened up or made any pollen. They may even be sterile. . .don't know, and I'm not going to find out because I expect the plant to be chopped and drying before they get a chance to mature. In short, this isn't going to pose any real problem, and I don't really care. I wouldn't do anything differently, and assuming the smoke is good, this wouldn't stop me from growing the plant again. I just feel obligated to mention this in the interest of full disclosure.


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## M Dogg (Jan 28, 2013)

Looks great man! That's my issue with "feminized" seeds though, that imprint (shocking by whatever method) becomes part of the genetic code and you never know when or how it will show itself. Hermies at week 9 is like you said no big deal, week 5 or 6 is a different story.


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## Jogro (Jan 28, 2013)

M Dogg said:


> Looks great man! That's my issue with "feminized" seeds though, that imprint (shocking by whatever method) becomes part of the genetic code and you never know when or how it will show itself. Hermies at week 9 is like you said no big deal, week 5 or 6 is a different story.


Agreed. Hermies at week 4 would be a deal-breaker. 

Hemies during the last week? Eh. . .I struggled a bit about whether or not I should even mention these, since I think people could come away with the wrong impression, but I figured it was better to be fully honest and give full disclosure. 

Its certainly possible that something I did stressed the plant, so I "made" this happen. All I can say is that I'm 100% sure it wasn't heat issues or light leak during the dark period. I don't think it was nute issues because I fed lightly and never saw any nute deficiencies of any kind. Again, my best guess is that if it is something I did, it was just not enough light to the bottom branches late in flowering. 

To be clear, this particular plant was started from "regular" ceeds, not feminized ones. So whatever caused this, it wasn't feminization. 

On that topic, some people believe that the process of feminizing ceeds permanently alters a plants DNA, but personally I don't believe that. There is no genetic reason that I'm aware of that fertilization of a plant with pollen from a female plant should alter the DNA of the offspring in any way. Said "feminized" pollen should be an exact genetic copy of DNA from the mother plant, the same as pollen from a true male plant. DNA is a fairly durable molecule, simple environmental stress like light or heat won't change it, especially since organisms have "proofreading" functions that fix most mutations. It takes exposure to "serious" chemical, biological, or radiologic mutagens to do that. 

Meanwhile, its normal for females of ALL dioecious plants like cannabis to create some male flowers. They're basically ALL hermaphrodites, and you'll see this in most natural/feral cannabis plants too. In particular, the ability to make male flowers is a normal survival mechanism that all cannabis plants have built into their DNA to help perpetuate the species in harsh conditions. It just happens that this trait has been suppressed in most "drug" cannabis strains by selective breeding so that won't must do it under "normal" circumstances. 

But all cannabis plants retain the ability to create male flowers "hardwired" into their DNA, and I think under the right ("wrong") circumstances I think any plant can do so. Many strains have a tendency to throw off a few bananas at the end of flowering, or if you let them go past the end of normal flowering. Also, given how common hermaphroditic cannabis plants are, I think its practically a "given" that in some point in its lineage, probably EVERY cannabis plant has some predecessor that was "fathered" by a female plant. 

I think what many breeders/growers are worried about is that if you use plants that easily tend to go hermie as breeding stock, then you're passing off that tendency to the offspring. In other words, you're selecting FOR a negative trait that you should really be selecting against. Many breeders won't use any feminized plant for breeding stock believing that these plants are somehow "weaker" than non-feminized ones of the same line. This may be true, though I've never seen evidence that it is. 

In this particular case, again, it just doesn't matter. If these male flowers are actually fertile (which I'd assume is true), AND I let them mature (which will probably take another 1-2 weeks at least), AND I didn't pluck them off or chop the plant, AND there were some other early flowering plant in my flowering area, then this could cause unwanted seeding and pose a real problem. But given that this plant is coming down shortly, and that I have no intention of doing any sort of serious breeding with this plant, it just doesn't matter. I'll keep my eye on this to see what happens, but I'm not even going to bother to pluck off the male flowers.


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## greenghost420 (Jan 28, 2013)

cant wait for a smoke report! hows the smell?


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## Jogro (Jan 29, 2013)

Quick update, day 62 flower:

This is coming down soon.


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## Jogro (Jan 29, 2013)

greenghost420 said:


> cant wait for a smoke report! hows the smell?


I can't wait for a smoke report either. . .

On smell, see here:
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/585422-sickmeds-williams-wonder-grow-journal-7.html#post8580986

Again, when this started flowering, it had a distinct sweet tangerine like smell that I compared to tangerine fruit punch (ie "ecto cooler"). That smell is still in there, but now there is a sour grapefruit like component too, plus a layer of generic weed "dank" smell. 

Its definitely a good smell, and better than a lot of them (ie no pine, fuel, urine, skunk, etc), though at this point I'd say it doesn't smell like pure citrus, but rather like citrusy weed.


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## steveat (Jan 29, 2013)

Hi Again,

Regarding the smell. I am quite paranoid of smell and I go to great lengths to get rid of it. How strong is it? I have a carbon filter, but it just dampens the smell and I need something extra. I was thinking of putting my plants through two carbon filters...a regular one and a homemade one, plus ONA and I also have an ONA Breeze and gel as backup. I was even thinking of two carbon filters and a cardboard box full of dryer sheets  The problem is that I can't vent outside due to the way my apartment is designed. How much do you smell outside the tent or room that you have? You might vent outside (outside outside not outside the tent) which would probably mean next to nothing. 

Regarding harvesting. At what point during the trichome development are you picking? 50% clear 50% cloudy or are you waiting for 10% amber or even 50% amber? I would want to grow this until 25-50% amber myself. What would be your best guess as to the length of flowering for this plant to get to my achievement? Assuming one plant under 250W HPS (4 week veg).


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## greenghost420 (Jan 29, 2013)

are more pollen sacs popping up?


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## Jogro (Jan 29, 2013)

steveat said:


> Hi Again,
> Regarding the smell. I am quite paranoid of smell and I go to great lengths to get rid of it. How strong is it?


Strain smell should be considered strong. 

Smell outside my grow area is minimal, but I do have odor control measures in place and what works in my situation probably won't apply to you. 

If you have the ability to vent into a closed/sealed area, you might be able to deodorize said area with ozone. But you don't want to introduce ozone into an area directly into the area with plants, or where people are going to breathe it, and you also don't want to vent the the smell of live ozone outside your apt, because someone might think there is an electrical short. Venting it outside might be an option if you aren't on the ground floor.



> Regarding harvesting. At what point during the trichome development are you picking? 50% clear 50% cloudy or are you waiting for 10% amber or even 50% amber? I would want to grow this until 25-50% amber myself. What would be your best guess as to the length of flowering for this plant to get to my achievement? Assuming one plant under 250W HPS (4 week veg).


My target is 5-10% amber; basically any "real" amount of amber other than rare individual trichromes, but its situation dependent. 

Some strains don't really turn amber, and some never get real milky white, just a bit cloudy (as this one appears to be doing). So you also have to look at pistil maturity and overall plant development too not just trichromes. IE, are the hairs all or nearly all brown? Have the pistils/flowers swollen? Are the fan leaves mostly yellow or dropped? Etc. (See my grow journal on Mexican sativa below for some discussion about a plant that never turned amber). Also sometimes you do your harvest when its most convenient, or even when you "can" not necessarily when the plant has hit its theoretical peak. 

Some people like a really late harvest believing that the high is "stonier", but I don't subscribe to that. From what I understand once the trichromes start turning brown you're losing overall THC content and partly displacing it with CBN, which is an undesirable cannabinoid. So, IMO 50% amber is too far, because you're giving up quite a bit of potency. 

Not having done it, I can't tell you how long it would take to get to 50% amber, but based on what I've seen so far, my guess is that 11 or maybe 12 weeks flowering would probably get you there. Depending on how this turns out I may play with extending flowering time a little bit next time. 



greenghost420 said:


> are more pollen sacs popping up?


Well, there are a few scattered around, in multiple spots, though overall number isn't many. Not having gone over the whole plant with a hand lens counting, them, I can't tell you exactly how many or if the number is increasing, but I definitely don't get the sense the plant is dramatically "going hermie" with internodal male flowers as some do. Again, I don't consider this to be an issue because they're all immature and the plant will be chopped shortly. I suppose this might be more of an issue if I let the plant go 11-12 weeks (see above), but I'm not going to. 

This plant is nearly done, and its coming down at 70 days no matter what.


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## Jogro (Jan 30, 2013)

Wow. . .just read this on another forum, and I see we may have some more interesting old school genetics coming from Sickmeds in the future. Apparently the breeder has been gifted quite a number of old-stock seeds from one of the original SSSC shippers, and he's had some success in growing out some of these (to be released in the future): 



> http://www.marijuanapassion.com/forum/showthread.php?p=801233
> 
> Hoped the board might permit a personal announcement about some old rare genetics potentially being reborn.
> 
> ...


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## steveat (Jan 30, 2013)

Hmm..I wonder if the Nigerian strain is the long lost African strain I was always reading about. The real dark, almost black plant that was the bees knees back in the day.

As for the smell comments in the previous post, thanks. I actually have a desktop air filter that sucks air in and exposes it to UV as well as a spongy carbon filter thing and a while air filter as well. I just don't like to leave it on all the time. Paranoid that it might light the carpet on fire or something  i can close the room and have the tent vent into the room, but I wasn't sure if it would affect the plants. I won't put it into the tent, just the room where the tent is in. Either that or I can place it just outside the room. That would be where I breath though, so no good. I want to avoid bringing the tent in my bedroom which is deeper into my apt and I can vent outside...I guess I could do it for a 3 month period and grow enough for the rest of the year. Just means 3 months of bringing nobody home .

I'm new to this whole breeding thing. Could you explain the "m" or even give me a link to wrap my head around all the letter.


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## M Dogg (Jan 30, 2013)

WOW! Now that's interesting!


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## Jogro (Jan 30, 2013)

steveat said:


> Hmm..I wonder if the Nigerian strain is the long lost African strain I was always reading about. The real dark, almost black plant that was the bees knees back in the day.


Definitely. . .NOT. 

As its name suggests this is a cross of an African strain from Nigeria with an Afghani (indica) from Kandahar. 



> As for the smell comments in the previous post, thanks. I actually have a desktop air filter that sucks air in and exposes it to UV as well as a spongy carbon filter thing and a while air filter as well. I just don't like to leave it on all the time. Paranoid that it might light the carpet on fire or something  i can close the room and have the tent vent into the room, but I wasn't sure if it would affect the plants. I won't put it into the tent, just the room where the tent is in. Either that or I can place it just outside the room. That would be where I breath though, so no good. I want to avoid bringing the tent in my bedroom which is deeper into my apt and I can vent outside...I guess I could do it for a 3 month period and grow enough for the rest of the year. Just means 3 months of bringing nobody home .


All I can say is the following. Your plants need fresh air to breathe, and humidity levels have to be controlled, or you'll get rot. You also don't want smell leaking through walls, floors, etc. Typically this means exchanging the air in the grow area with fresh air every so often. There may be more than one way to ventilate and control odors, but its up to you to figure out the best way that works for your particular setup. 



> I'm new to this whole breeding thing. Could you explain the "m" or even give me a link to wrap my head around all the letter.


Its a lot less complicated than you think. 

The "M" just refers to the old SSSC (Super Sativa Seed Club) catalog number for the strain. It has nothing to do with the actual genetics or strain characteristics. 

Its probably just the order the company received and listed the strains in (ie William's Wonder was the 31st strain they listed or considered for sale), and having the catalog numbers just simplifies marketing and distribution, sort of like the numbers on a restaurant menu would.


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## Jogro (Jan 31, 2013)

*HARVEST: Day 67*

OK, these look done and I decided to chop. I could probably have gone another 3-4 days for more amber, and maybe next time I'll stretch this a bit more, but the timing of this chop was good for me, and colas here are so dense I didn't want to push my luck with bud rot or other issues coming into the final stretch. 

Colas are not only large, but also heavy/dense too. To me the structure also looks like the Sickmeds ad images, which is nice: 








Note a bit of purpling on the fan leaves here. For scale, the largest cola in the second image below is nearly the size of my forearm, with closeup below:








Two more closeups. I think these also look like the Sickmeds bud shots (though later along), so that's consistent, at least. 








As expected, final yield was high; remember this was only grown under 1/2 of a 250W HPS. The manicure also gummed up the scissors pretty well. Here is the final harvest trimmed, with a picture of the scissor hash and a "tic-tac" mint for scale:


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## Jogro (Jan 31, 2013)

Grow summary and final impressions:


-Se-eds sprouted immediately, and grew vigorously in vegetative phase with dark green leaves and "skunky" smell. 

-Visible flower production started quickly, within a week of switching to 12-12. 

-Overall plant stretch after switch to 12-12 was minimal. There was no crazy "stretch" phase after going to 12-12 the way you get with some sativa-influenced strains. Plant effectively only doubled in height during flowering, staying compact and bushy in classic "indica" form. 

-Plant responded well to minimal training and pruning. Basically, all I did was top the plant once, prune off the lower branches (which would never get light anyway), and spread the branches outward to create a wider canopy and let more light in. If I hadn't have done that, I'd definitely have had the classic "Christmas tree" indica shape. 

-Cut clones (made from pruned lower branches) rooted in about 10 days in just water. 

-No issues of mold, bugs, nute deficiencies, etc during grow. 

-Odor was strong, especially at the end. 

-Overall cola and individual bud density was high, possibly the highest I've ever seen. I suspect this strain would be highly susceptible to rot, but I was extra-careful to keep humidity low and air circulating. 

-A few early male flowers ("bananas") popped up near the end of flowering. I did carefully inspect every single bud thoroughly at harvest, and didn't see many here, just a few clusters. None of these had opened or made pollen yet. There was no se-ed formation anywhere either. Don't know if this was genetics, or grower-induced stress (or both), but I don't really consider this to be an issue. I've seen a lot of other strains do a lot worse, bluntly, and IMO no harm no foul. I also think a lot of growers would probably not even have seen these. . .again, I was being super-diligent looking for bud rot and checking trichromes and was going over the buds with a hand lens the last few weeks. 

-Chose to chop at 67 days and plant was definitely done. I probably could have gone +/- a few days there. 

I'd say that at least on the grow side of things, this matched the Sickmeds ad copy pretty well, and its also met the pretty high bar that the reputation of the strain has set in terms of growth characteristics, smell and yield. So I'm definitely not disappointed. Overall grow was very easy. . .in fact its been so long since I've grown a pure indica like this, I've forgotten exactly how easy these can be. 

Now we just have to do the most important test. . .is this the "wrecker" in terms of potency that I remember from the 1990s? 

Stay tuned for smoke report. . .coming soon.


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## Jogro (Jan 31, 2013)

Last thing.

I took a lot of pictures this grow, and learned two tricks about bud photography I'd like to share.

-Good lighting is key. It not only makes the colors stand out, but also makes the resin glands sparkle for that "bud porn" look that High Times magazine made famous. Those "white" pictures are very impressive; we've all seen them, but they're partly an artefact of camera FLASH. 

-See those super closeups. . .do I have a fancy $500 macro lens? Hell no. Instead I have a $5 loupe like the one depicted below that I use to inspect buds and trichromes. To get the closeups, what I did was put my cheapie $100 camera in "macro" mode, then took the shots with the loupe pressed right up to the lens! Stupid-simple, and you'd think this "shouldn't" work, but the camera auto-focuses and it does.


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## Hitch (Jan 31, 2013)

Remarkable grow report. This is a highly impressive strain. There's no wonder that more than one autoflowering strain claims genetics from this beauty. If you're looking to increase an auto's production, this would be a good strain to cross with.

Meanwhile, thank you for the close up pic recommendation.


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## Jogro (Jan 31, 2013)

Hitch said:


> Remarkable grow report. This is a highly impressive strain. There's no wonder that more than one autoflowering strain claims genetics from this beauty. If you're looking to increase an auto's production, this would be a good strain to cross with.


In fact almost all of the current crop of autos are hybridized with/from the original Lowryder, which has Williams Wonder as one of its parents. 

So most of the commercial autos already have some Williams' Wonder genetics in there (ie other than the DNA Genetics misnamed "60-day wonder"). 

There are higher yielding strains out there (eg Critical mass/Big bud), though I don't think they have the potency that this one is known for. 




> Meanwhile, thank you for the close up pic recommendation.


You're welcome.


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## Jogro (Feb 5, 2013)

*Sickmeds William Wonder: Smoke report.*

How did I get the stuff ready so fast? I "cheated". Actual harvest was several weeks ago, and grow report was "time delayed". Buds have been dried and curing for nearly a month now. 

Final yield was about 2 ounces bone dry and heavily manicured. That may not sound like much, but its actually a respectable yield given that the plant was only 27" tall at harvest and grown under just half of a 250W HPS in a relatively inefficient setup without SCROG or SOG.

Onto the report. . .

*Weight*: Buds themselves are dense, and heavy for their size. 








*Scent*: STRONG. . .this is one of those strains that really smells when dry, and when you open the jar, you know it. There is a strong and distinct herbal/weed scent, plus a hint of grapefruit and tangerine. The citrus component to the smell came out much more during the grind. 

*Taste:* Smoke tastes like smell. Citrusy weed with hints of tangerine and grapefruit. Enough said. Like many/most taste of this one would probably be improved by a vaporizer. 

*Effect*: Having been accidentally "couchlocked" by overly strong weed multiple times in the past (including more than once in Amsterdam, and the last time I tried William's Wonder), I've learned my lesson. The lesson is, if you don't know how strong the weed is, start SMALL.

So I took one small/medium bud, weighing 0.51 grams (see pic), then ground it up. Then I took 1/3 of the grind and rolled that into a thin "pinner" joint using an extra long "crutch" to take up space. So the test was done on a sample weighing a measured 170 milligrams; basically the smallest functional joint I thought I could roll. The rest of the stuff I rolled into a second smallish joint, "for later".

On smoking, I felt that distinct "pressure" in the head a few seconds after first puff. That's always the first clue that the stuff is strong, and I wasn't disappointed. 

Typical 5-10 minute "creeper" delay then the full effect, of a nice warm indica body "stone" with relaxation. It actually wasn't as "wrecking" as I remembered from the '90s, but I'm sure that was due to the limited dose. Anyway, this small dose was enough for a pleasant "stone" for 3-4 hours of medium intensity. Next time I'd smoke a bit more, maybe 225mg, which I'd consider a full dose. More than that and I probably wouldn't be functional anymore (ie "couchlock") This is definitely not for operating heavy machinery, that's for sure!

The first time I ever heard of William's Wonder, it was billed as "Williams One Hit Wonder". Is this "one hit" stuff? Well, if by "one hit" you mean one ordinary puff from an ordinary joint, no, this wasn't for me. It also wasn't the first time I tried it, as I wrote in the "one hit" thread six months ago:



> Williams wonder. . .
> 
> When I tried it (which was in the mid 90s), one normal sized joint completely wrecked three people before it was done.
> 
> ...


That said, with those criteria I don't think ANY flowers are truly "one hit from a joint is enough" for an experienced smoker. I've never experienced ordinary weed that strong, and even decent grade water hash isn't "one hit" for me out of an ordinary pipe. But this was definitely up there in terms of potency, stronger than most, and probably as strong as anything I've smoked in terms of flowers. 

If you figure that an average joint is probably about 0.75 g, and that by my estimation about 1/3 of that is probably enough to "couchlock" someone, then this seemed to be as potent as the stuff from the 1990s that couchlocked me and two of my friends from one "normal" joint. I can definitely get behind the SSSC description of two people not being able to finish a joint. Is it the strongest indica out there? Not having tried many of the super-potent indicas I can't really say, but purely by the numbers, my guess is "no". I'd imagine the strongest of the "OG"s are probably a little bit more potent than this, though this will still hold its own with many of them If you figure that unlike most of the "OGs" this strain offers high yield, is true breeding (ie all plants grown from ceed will be similar), and now readily available in ceed form, I think it still has a lot to offer compared to some of these "clone only" OGs. 

So in sum, the Sickmeds Williams Wonder has lived up to the hype of high yield, citrus taste, and notably high potency. It was also super-easy to grow and I'll definitely be growing it again.


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## greenghost420 (Feb 6, 2013)

u sly fox!


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## wontazute (Feb 11, 2013)

We all would love for you to hit us back again after you have tried that regular sized joint of Williams wonder.


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## Jogro (Feb 11, 2013)

wontazute said:


> We all would love for you to hit us back again after you have tried that regular sized joint of Williams wonder.


OK. Will do. 

But before I do, a serious question. 

What do you consider a "regular" joint for one session for one person in terms of amount of weed? 0.5 grams? 0.7 grams? 

The "other" joint I rolled weighs about 0.33 of a gram. . .IMO that's still a pretty small joint. Maybe I'll shoot a pic of it before "testing".


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## bleuballz (Feb 15, 2013)

Very nice jogro. I've been curious about this strain.


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## greenghost420 (Feb 15, 2013)

a point 5 sounds regular


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## Jogro (Feb 16, 2013)

greenghost420 said:


> a point 5 sounds regular


Sorry. . .you're saying a regular joint is 0.5 grams or 1.5 grams?

If you mean 0.5g, I agree, that's about what I consider a "normal" joint too. I'll try to get one that size rolled up and do a second smoke report when I get a chance. 

If you mean 1.5 grams. . .forget it. I don't think I even could finish a joint that size since I'd probably be "couchlocked" before getting to the end. That's a fun joint to roll (you can get a nice "cone" going), but I'd consider it more of a "party" joint to be passed around several people.


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## CK. (Feb 16, 2013)

Respect Jogro, great journal, I'm looking forward to trying it myself


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## theloadeddragon (Feb 16, 2013)

Jogro said:


> OK. Will do.
> 
> But before I do, a serious question.
> 
> ...


I get a King Size Zig Zag, and fill it up nicely... yeah, even for just me. I usually put about 1.6-2.5 grams in them. thats regular for me...


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## greenghost420 (Feb 16, 2013)

i usually do what he said^^ got the 12 inch raws i tear to size needed. but i would say normal people would go with .5 and nub it out when they are nice.


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## Jogro (Feb 27, 2013)

Update:

Just heard back from my old friend, the one I smoked the Williams Wonder with back in the mid 1990s. 

"Somehow", he managed to acquire a sample of these buds for nostalgia/testing purposes, and I wanted to post his review. 

In a nutshell, he was VERY excited to see these buds. He told me he is 99% certain that the buds he got are the exact same thing we smoked together 15 years ago: Same scent, same flavor, same bud appearance, same potency, and same effect. He said he can't be 100% sure just because it was so long ago, but he said the smell in particular was so distinctive, he remembered it, and that's what really persuaded him that this was the same thing.

He specifically noted that the strain was quite potent, AND it made him really sleepy (which is a pretty typical indica effect).

So I think that's reasonably good confirmation that this is the "real deal" M31 William's Wonder from SSSC. 

Meanwhile, I haven't yet had the chance to try a full 0.5g sample, but I will do so and post back. (Have tried lesser amount, and its still good!). Without doing it, I doubt the results will be surprising; I'll probably be "heavily" medicated for a few hours!


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## OGEvilgenius (Mar 3, 2013)

Ordered 2 packs just now. Also Federation Seeds ISS (I know the seeds are like 5 years old). Kickin it old school.


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## Jogro (Mar 3, 2013)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Ordered 2 packs just now. Also Federation Seeds ISS (I know the seeds are like 5 years old). Kickin it old school.


Nice. As you can tell, I'm also stuck in the 1990s. . .

I think you'll like these. The breeder has told me that his plants all appear similar. Given how similar my plants were not only to each other, but also to the breeders, I'd be pretty surprised if yours turned out any different. The remake does appear to be an inbred line. 

Please do me a favor, if/when you grow these, I'd love to hear your opinion on the final smoke. Its just because I know you've grown and posted about some of the other strains I'm interested in (eg Sannies), so I value your comparison. You could just post it here. 

In the meantime, I did try rolling up a 0.5g joint. . .and of course it was pretty strong. 

For what its worth, I didn't really get "couchlocked" the way I did the first time I tried this 15+ years ago. Don't know if that's because I'm older and have more tolerance now (probably), because the strain is different (don't think so), less potent (doubt it too), or because at only 65 days I harvested it too early (again, doubt it). But I definitely didn't want more.


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## OGEvilgenius (Mar 3, 2013)

Will do, it might take years, although I'll be honest and say they are higher up the list than most based on this journal.


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## OGEvilgenius (Mar 6, 2013)

These will be one of the first things I pop when I get my new place next spring hopefully.


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## M Dogg (Mar 6, 2013)

OGEvilgenius said:


> Ordered 2 packs just now. Also Federation Seeds ISS (I know the seeds are like 5 years old). Kickin it old school.


Hey bro, you at all interested in Mikado? That's an old-school Federation strain that I don't see available anywhere, she's still a regular of ours, killer bud!

Gonna do some outdoor this summer.


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## M Dogg (Mar 6, 2013)

Germinating 3/5 of the Williams Wonder ceeds. Day 3: one tiny tail, two others cracked but no tails. I'll check them again in about 6hrs and most likely they will go into some dirt then.


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## wontazute (Mar 13, 2013)

Jogro said:


> OK. Will do.
> 
> But before I do, a serious question.
> 
> ...


I would also say 0.5g-0.7g seems ideal depending on your preference.


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## Jogro (Mar 16, 2013)

wontazute said:


> I would also say 0.5g-0.7g seems ideal depending on your preference.


One thing I definitely have noticed is that there isn't a linear relationship between dose and perceived effect. 

In other words, double the dose does NOT get you "twice" as medicated. 

Based on my experience with the small under 0.2g "pinner" I was expecting to be totally decimated by a normal 0.5g joint, but it didn't happen. Don't get me wrong, 0.5g was PLENTY, I was just expecting to be so medicated I could barely stand or speak (ie "couchlock") but it didn't happen. 

This isn't true of just this strain, I think its true of most of them to some extent.


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## greenghost420 (Mar 16, 2013)

a .5 got you no more stoned than the .2?


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## Jogro (Mar 19, 2013)

greenghost420 said:


> a .5 got you no more stoned than the .2?


Of course 0.5g was much stronger than 0.2g. 

I was just expecting 0.5 to knock me on my butt to the point where I couldn't function at all, but it didn't happen. 

I definitely wouldn't want to be operating heavy (or any) machinery after 0.5g of this, though.


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## Mohican (Mar 20, 2013)

Hey Jogro - Did you grow out the male?

Cheers,
Mo


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## Jogro (Mar 20, 2013)

Mohican said:


> Hey Jogro - Did you grow out the male?


Good question.

Story is complicated, but I'll make it really short. 

The "male" plant ended up being a female that unlike its female sibling from this report, turned out to have male-like preflowers. 

I kept it hoping to get some pollen for "chucking" but was surprised to find the plant going entirely female after being put into 12-12. No real loss since I didn't have the space to flower it anyway. At the same time, I also didn't have the heart to kill it, so what I did instead was a compromise. I left it in the small pot from earlier in the report, and pruned it down to only two branches to minimize its "footprint". Then I threw it in the corner of the flower area where there was just enough room to squeeze in the pot, but where it got little light or love. 

The plant ended up making two surprisingly nice small colas (this line is just a producer) and finished just over a week before its sister. Potency, of course, wasn't as good as the bigger plant, but the scent/flavor was identical and I was happy to see how it did given the circumstances.


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## bookbinder (Mar 22, 2013)

Thanks so much for posting this report, as it brings much hope to us old fogies who know M31 all to well. If I can add my experience? WW was very uniform from seed to seed & I was puzzled by Mr. Schoenmaker "pick the one" instruction & not one male in the pack, kinda of a jip. It sounds as though improvements have been made as I had big problems with mold at harvest as the buds were extremely solid and mites loved this shit but "outdoors" (another puzzling instruction) was not an issue W/ either n talk 'bout baseball bats. also naners plenny o naners late into harvest, as for two people couldn't finish one well that was the beauty of WW it didn't devastate. Some of my reg customers were digital animators for industrial light & magic n skywalker ranch and had to function well and others were lawyers who were dysfunctional anyways-WW was a connoisseurs smoke. once in an elevator bagged like three times get'in it to one of my lawyer friends on the 30th flr every one gravitated to me like a laundry soap add sniffin' away that was the only downer bouts WW it stank big time. I came by this great strain by accident as SSSC had run out of what I ordered (m39) what a great mishap. lets see I'm missing something-oh the smell n flavor. It smelled like a skunk dipped in honey died in your pocket no pineapple or any other fruit, it was strange & unique. Taste, ah how to describe - Hell I can't it was also unique thick n rich, a small bito winy fruit n skunkiness n a tad of sweetness, that really doesn't cover it. I grew WW for 20 years n never found its rival. I miss her terribly, tried other brands Rez close but no cigar (boy dude's in love w/himself) BCBD forget bout it, Reefer dude (what was dat about) then tried to breed myself and way overshot. had the taste, smell, even the mold because of the density but the high was just too much, like da wings fell off the plane or somehting just paralyzing. Some kids (twenty somethings) were krazy for it in oaktown. Well thanks again for posting this grow report it was wonafull.


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## OregonGrowersUnite! (Mar 24, 2013)

Just finished a grow of this fantastic stuff. We flowered it under 500w hps for 7 and a half weeks ( landlord discovered grow, actually worked out well ) and had to chop em down early. Bad ass plant structure, short and buff, thats the only way i can describe it. it never once sagged, dropped, leaned or otherwise wilted in anyway, even when we had an emergency outage and it sat in below 50 degree temps for 9hrs. its stems and leaves are robust and grow almost at a 90 degree angle from the stock and encompass each bud, making an almost perfect bowl shape resembling flames around each nugget. The one negative was that it was prone to white mildew, a trait that my mentor said started with the first clone he ever received :/ so we lost a few nugs, which is a shame, because they are super dense, sugar coated, and after 2 weeks of curing, knock you on your ass strong. Im fucking serious, one of my patients, a 270 lb man, greened out on it on my couch lol. I don't really puff down heavy like I used to, but I took a snap of this at the two week mark for ceremonial purposes and instantly regretted it. At first I thought I hadn't drained it enough because the expansion in the lungs ( my term for a fuck ton of spicy yummy THC in the lungs ) doubled me over in a coughing fit. Then I ate 6 pieces of pizza and passed the fuck out. The white mildew was definitely a pain, but for looks, smell ( mine smelled piney and zesty, similar to when you take an incense stick and sniff it right next to your nose ) and potency alone, i'd rate it 9/10. This is for people who need to sleep, eat, or be high as shit


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## Jogro (Mar 25, 2013)

Thanks for the insight/experience, guys. I'm also interested in what other older growers have to say about this particular strain. 

For the both of you, do my pictures and descriptions match up with your experiences with the old M31/SSSC Williams' Wonder? I had smoked this once in the 90s, but never actually grew it before.

Now that I've had this curing for more than a month, I will add that the sweet tangerine/grapefruit scent that the flowers had while growing is tough to distinguish in the jar.

Instead, when you open it, you get a distinct (and somewhat unusual) floral scent, mixed in with a strong dose of conventional weed funk. So that's a little bit closer to what I remembered from the mid 1990s, and also probably could be described as "honey skunk". The citrus smell does seem to come out again on the actual grind.


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## OregonGrowersUnite! (Mar 26, 2013)

Jogro said:


> Thanks for the insight/experience, guys. I'm also interested in what other older growers have to say about this particular strain.
> 
> For the both of you, do my pictures and descriptions match up with your experiences with the old M31/SSSC Williams' Wonder? I had smoked this once in the 90s, but never actually grew it before.
> 
> ...


Yes absolutely, it all looks and sounds very similar, and when it is ground or split, that sweet citrusy side definitely comes out. And yeah, as far as I can tell, you got yourself a real M31 there. Have fun with that one, she's definitely a keeper,


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## Fonzarelli (May 12, 2013)

Jogro said:


> Last thing.
> 
> -See those super closeups. . .do I have a fancy $500 macro lens? Hell no. Instead I have a $5 loupe like the one depicted below that I use to inspect buds and trichromes. To get the closeups, what I did was put my cheapie $100 camera in "macro" mode, then took the shots with the loupe pressed right up to the lens! Stupid-simple, and you'd think this "shouldn't" work,


I did the same thing a year ago to take microscopic photos and then the other day I saw a product in one of those science gift catalogs were they have a rubber phone sleeve that's attached to the magnifier permanently. $40 something like that.

It's not super easy to do otherwise when you gotta hold the phone and magnifier both with a 5 ft reach and try to focus it with your third hand. 
Unfortunately I'm not the one making millions off the idea. Lol I guess it wasn't aliens reading my mind after all!

BTW, I haven't read through yet, but did you have even one single female plant entirely without bananas? 

Or did every female have at least one of them somewhere?

I've had a few seed packs(different strains) where some of the females will be mutant and show a few bananas, some plants real bad and some plants very little, but sometimes will still have a few females that have ZERO bananas.

I know some strains are guaranteed to put out a few bananas here and there, even the most pure Sour Diesels(AFAIK) will be guaranteed to put out a few if they get stressed. From what I've read online anyway.

Will be interesting to see if I get any out of the pack.

Thanks for the report!


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## Fonzarelli (May 12, 2013)

OregonGrowersUnite! said:


> Just finished a grow of this fantastic stuff. We flowered it under 500w hps for 7 and a half weeks ( landlord discovered grow, actually worked out well ) and had to chop em down early. Bad ass plant structure, short and buff, thats the only way i can describe it. it never once sagged, dropped, leaned or otherwise wilted in anyway, even when we had an emergency outage and it sat in below 50 degree temps for 9hrs. its stems and leaves are robust and grow almost at a 90 degree angle from the stock and encompass each bud, making an almost perfect bowl shape resembling flames around each nugget. The one negative was that it was prone to white mildew, a trait that my mentor said started with the first clone he ever received :/ so we lost a few nugs, which is a shame, because they are super dense, sugar coated, and after 2 weeks of curing, knock you on your ass strong. Im fucking serious, one of my patients, a 270 lb man, greened out on it on my couch lol. I don't really puff down heavy like I used to, but I took a snap of this at the two week mark for ceremonial purposes and instantly regretted it. At first I thought I hadn't drained it enough because the expansion in the lungs ( my term for a fuck ton of spicy yummy THC in the lungs ) doubled me over in a coughing fit. Then I ate 6 pieces of pizza and passed the fuck out. The white mildew was definitely a pain, but for looks, smell ( mine smelled piney and zesty, similar to when you take an incense stick and sniff it right next to your nose ) and potency alone, i'd rate it 9/10. This is for people who need to sleep, eat, or be high as shit


Any bananas in your cutting Mr. O?

Wondering if it's a common trait or something it was bred with.


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## Jogro (May 12, 2013)

Fonzarelli said:


> I did the same thing a year ago to take microscopic photos and then the other day I saw a product in one of those science gift catalogs were they have a rubber phone sleeve that's attached to the magnifier permanently. $40 something like that.
> 
> It's not super easy to do otherwise when you gotta hold the phone and magnifier both with a 5 ft reach and try to focus it with your third hand.


I've found a tripod to be helpful when short of hands, and it also leads to much better pictures, since you can compose them better and it keeps everything still. 

Perhaps by dumb luck, the loupe in question fits right over my camera objective lens, and I'm able to hold the loupe there with one hand, and hold and operate the camera with the other. The camera itself auto-focuses, and seems to compensate just fine for having the loupe on there. So at least for this, it seems to work OK. If I had to, I'm also pretty sure a small piece of tape could hold the loupe in place. In fact, my hand is big enough, and the loupe and camera small enough that I think I could hold it in place and operate the camera with ONE hand if I really had to. 

On cost, again the loupe cost $5. "Marginal cost" is zero, since I'm using the same loupe anyway to inspect the plants. Its definitely not the "best" loupe (ie I wouldn't be inspecting diamonds with it!) but its certainly adequate. 



> BTW, I haven't read through yet, but did you have even one single female plant entirely without bananas?
> Or did every female have at least one of them somewhere?


So far, I'm 3/3 on completed plants throwing bananas. The plant depicted earlier in this grow only really only had a few, but my most recent grow really threw out a lot of them. Pictures of this newer plant will be coming shortly. 

None of the plants were ever light stressed, though because of a ventilation mishap and vacation on my part, this last one was heat and water-stressed, and these were probably contributing factors. 

The bananas really seem to pop up in the last 2-3 weeks of flowering (that's out of a 9-10 week grow). So far I haven't seen any bananas actually open up or make visible pollen, and I've gotten zero ceeds, so they may be sterile. In any case, even if they aren't I'd say 70%+ of the pistils are brown by the time they show up, so its probably too late for them to self-pollinate anyway. 



> I know some strains are guaranteed to put out a few bananas here and there, even the most pure Sour Diesels(AFAIK) will be guaranteed to put out a few if they get stressed. From what I've read online anyway.


I've only grown out two different Williams Wonder plants from ceed, though each individual multiple times via clones, and from what I can tell, this one probably falls into the "likely to put out bananas if stressed" category. As a small personal grower, since they come late and don't seem to make ceeds, I don't really care about the bananas, and this issue isn't going to stop me from growing this plant again.

I'm sure there is a significant genetic component to this. The Green Cracks I grew out at the same time were subject to the exact same conditions and none of them so much as put out even one banana. 



> Will be interesting to see if I get any out of the pack. Thanks for the report!


You're welcome. If you don't mind, when you're done, or even along the way, could you post any experiences you've had with this line in this thread?
EG, whether or not you get bananas, smoke potency, or anything else you'd care to mention. 
Thanks.


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## Jogro (May 13, 2013)

So. . .remember this? 


Here she is again, after topping, vegging to about 10" tall, opening up the two sides of the "Y" a little bit, then flowering for 68 days at 12-12 under half of a 250WHPS. That's the same conditions as before, just less veg development (that was on purpose, I wanted to see what would happen starting from a small clone here). I deliberately extended the flowering time a few days; we'll see if it makes any different in quality later. Also, didn't strip off the fan leaves prior to taking the images, the way I did last grow. 







Plants is just short, compact, and bushy, with the weight of the lower colas helping to bend the stems down and keep them horizontal. As you can see, the entire plant is only 20" tall at the end of flowering, measured from soil to top, or 18" from the rim of the 3 gallon pot. With a plant this short and dense, kind of makes me wonder why people bother with autoflowers indoors. 

Scent is super strong. . .more intense than last time (and it was pretty strong then). Not sure if its because of increased temps, or longer flowering time, or probably both, but this time it was pushing through my odor control and starting to make me a little nervous. This is NOT a low odor plant!



Yes, got a little bit more purple this time, though it was only on a few colas, and just on the end fan leaves, not the buds. This has to be a nute thing; temps really didn't any colder than last time. As mentioned in the last post, this time I got a lot more LOT more bananas the last 2-3 weeks. Unlike last time where I only had a few scattered clusters, this time all of the large buds showed some at the ends, though again, I didn't see any actual pollen formation or a single ceed and its possible they're sterile. This is probably partly genetic, but I also I attribute it to overheating due to temporary vent issues; temps got into high 80s for a while:









And the "extreme closeup", showing the impressive resin development. This shot was taken a few days before the chop:


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## Natural Gas (May 15, 2013)

Hey Jogro & W-W fans, I completed my William's Wonder indoor soil grow, harvest and cure and along with three friends blazed the first number before heading out to a club last Friday night. But first here are the highs and lows of my grow...100% germ on ten beans in Rapid Rooters in sixteen ounce cups. Two weeks under 24hr T-5s. Transplant into gallons under Hydro Grow 189X LED 18/6 cycle. At four weeks top (and clone) to train for eight colas...I use the "hub" method which is similar to "Mainlining" that "nugbucket" journaled here on RIU. I veg for eight weeks after transplant to gallons. At six weeks into veg sex and transplant to seven gallon Smart Pots...Yeah, I know it can be done faster and in smaller containers...Different Strokes...Only three fems but all three very similar no visual pheno differentiation...Into flower tent under Kessil h150 magenta LEDs. Each plant has a dedicated Kessil...Here is the point where I wish I had followed Jogro's journal thread here...I, too, got monecious "nanners"...No biggie for me; it happens with early generation hybrids just pick em...Well, turns out I missed at least one somewhere and I got "INSEMINATED"...Still, not a big deal to me...Harvested at 65 days, about 30% amber. Colas about 16-18 inches. Manicured yield about 90gm/plant and it sure stinks...Now to the buz factor...Four of us passed around a "fattie" and drove to hear a local band. Had a beer a piece during first set...Off to parking lot to blaze another number between sets...About three tunes into the second set one of my friends nods off and the club manager says we need to leave by cab...I wanted to say something to the manager but couldn't talk...We got my passed out friend (who is now comatose) out of the cab and into his house laid out on the sofa...I was next home but could not find my house key on my keyring...Driver got out of the cab found the key and let me in my own house...Then all of a sudden it was Saturday...I have not been that paralyzed in a while...W-W is strong medicine; definitely body numbing and good night time soporific...Not my idea of a club drug...Yes, I am going to plant the s33ds...FWIW


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## skunkd0c (May 31, 2013)

Hey Jogro Nice grow and review of the strain, interested in this one myself
nice to smoke those old strains again 

peace


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## gollum (Jun 30, 2013)

Very nice!


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 1, 2013)

Jogro said:


> So. . .remember this?
> View attachment 2654229
> 
> Here she is again, after topping, vegging to about 10" tall, opening up the two sides of the "Y" a little bit, then flowering for 68 days at 12-12 under half of a 250WHPS. That's the same conditions as before, just less veg development (that was on purpose, I wanted to see what would happen starting from a small clone here). I deliberately extended the flowering time a few days; we'll see if it makes any different in quality later. Also, didn't strip off the fan leaves prior to taking the images, the way I did last grow.
> ...


 By the looks of the nanners they're a bit from popping open anyhow. With the Diesels you get them often too, not only on fem plants either but they hardly ever open. The real problem 'herms' are the ones that spray your room with pollen at week 6 :/ That just SUCKS. 

Thanks for a nice report, I've also only heard the greatest reviews from smokers, a few friends in the UK have been talking my ears off about this girl. I'll HAVE to order some. Something this short and fat is a bit of a dream plant for me, nanners be damned.


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## Jogro (Jul 2, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> By the looks of the nanners they're a bit from popping open anyhow. With the Diesels you get them often too, not only on fem plants either but they hardly ever open. The real problem 'herms' are the ones that spray your room with pollen at week 6 :/ That just SUCKS.


I think if you mistreated one of these you could probably get early bananas that would fertilize your plants, but I still haven't seen an actual seed yet.

To tell the truth, I wouldn't mind a few VIABLE ceeds, that would be a plus! But as you say a late fertilization that resulted in a whole bunch of immature ceeds would suck bad. 



> Thanks for a nice report, I've also only heard the greatest reviews from smokers, a few friends in the UK have been talking my ears off about this girl. I'll HAVE to order some. Something this short and fat is a bit of a dream plant for me, nanners be damned.


You're welcome. 

I've also heard from several other sources that this one is really quite the fad right now in the UK, probably explaining why its usually sold out. 

If you get it, I don't think you'll be disappointed.


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## Jogro (Aug 11, 2013)

From the Skunk thread:


kona gold said:


> So, like you, i was always interested in finding the original Williams Wonde, and got some just popped up yesterday....all ten beans vigoriously sprouted. So when i was parousing your grow report.....it seemed like you only started a couple beanz....is that correct? Do you think you found a good pheno....cause i remember that stuff was strong!


Williams Wonder is a classic "heirloom" inbred line. You're not going to see much pheno variation. 

Since that original report, I've grown several of these. Pheno variation is really minimal; every plant I've grown has been similar, and every one has been good. The only external difference I've seen between them is some difference in height, but even there, not much. I have seen some difference in hermie-proneness and potency (in particular "stoniness") between individual plants, but that may well be attributable to grow conditions rather than genetics. . .don't know, and short of controlled trials/lab testing, there is no real way for me to know. 

I think you'll be more than satisified with this one. Odor is strong (and yes, the plant is actually "skunky" early in veg), yield, resin content, and potency are all high. Just keep your eyes peeled for hermies late in flower. Also, this one will benefit from long veg time since the plant barely doubles in height all through flowering, and stays nice and squat, more veg will increase your yields without height issues. 

If you're so inclined, this one is really THE classic early "sea of green" plant, so if you wanted to grow as multiple small single-cola plants over your grow space, I think you'll be pleased. 

Also, if you don't mind, whenever you get around to it, could you post your impressions of the line (good, bad, or indifferent) here? Yield, potency, issues, whatever. I think the more opinions, the better.


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## Stickslivin (Aug 11, 2013)

pretty amazing grow. im a first time grower. im broke and.didnt know about cfl before getting lights. I picked up some cheap old jym (400w MH) lights. and my first plant is about ready. I dont have any huge colas. and about a 1/3 of the bud have. my plant is 27" also. im pretty bumed. Im growing headband and hooe to get better flowering lights soon!!!!! good luck with your grow. happy growing!!!


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## Jogro (Aug 12, 2013)

Stickslivin said:


> pretty amazing grow. im a first time grower. im broke and.didnt know about cfl before getting lights. I picked up some cheap old jym (400w MH) lights. and my first plant is about ready. I dont have any huge colas. and about a 1/3 of the bud have. my plant is 27" also. im pretty bumed. Im growing headband and hooe to get better flowering lights soon!!!!! good luck with your grow. happy growing!!!


This is getting way off topic, but

-400W metal halide lamp isn't "the best", but its perfectly fine to grow under, and something like that is still probably better overall than a mini-setup using CFLs. You can take a plant from ceed to harvest under a metal halide lamp, and people do it, but you'll do a bit better in terms of bud density and yield if you use an HPS lamp instead of an MH one during flowering. 

-You can buy an HPS "conversion" bulb that will let you run an HPS lamp in your MH setup. For example, something like this: http://4hydroponics.com/plantmax-hps-conversion-bulb-360w This should give you all the benefit of HPS (which most pros use and most agree is still the standard for indoor flowering), and is still probably cheaper than buying a new ballast/lamp. Extra cost here isn't going to be that much since you will eventually have to replace your MH bulb anyway. 

-In this case, I suspect the results you had were probably more about your lack of experience and the genetics you selected, rather than deficiency in light spectrum. With experience, you'll do better with later grows after your first one.


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## SSHZ (Aug 14, 2013)

Just started 10 of these.......10/10 popped and they're on their way. Nice job Jogro........I'll try and do them justice. I'll post some pic's on their development as they get larger.


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## Jogro (Aug 19, 2013)

Just heard through the grapevine that Sickmeds has just shipped out "Wonder Kush", its first new commercial Williams Wonder hybrid. 

Regular s-eeds should be available through the usual outlets over the next week or so. 

Wonder Kush is Jedi Kush F3 x Williams Wonder, so its a mix between old and new potent indicas. 

This should have the same overall high potency as the Williams Wonder (roughly 23% total cannabinoids), but with better flavor and a slightly less "couchlocky" profile. If you like potent indicas and/or kushes, this is definitely worth checking out. I will be growing this out within a few months and posting a formal report here. 

Also, after being sold out nearly everywhere for several months, the original Williams Wonder is being restocked at the same time. So if you've been waiting to get some, you should be able to find some in stock pretty soon.


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## Bear Country (Aug 25, 2013)

Jogro said:


> Just heard through the grapevine that Sickmeds has just shipped out "Wonder Kush", its first new commercial Williams Wonder hybrid.
> 
> Regular s-eeds should be available through the usual outlets over the next week or so.
> 
> ...



JOGRO....This was a OUTSTANDING journal. Great job...very detailed and to the point! I enjoyed it very much. PROPS AMIGO!!

Bear


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## SSHZ (Aug 31, 2013)

Here's my ten plants.........about 3 weeks into veg. Very healthy, uniform, etc. I'll probably give them all a pinch or two to bush them out a bit, and then flower them at around 30-35 days. Hope I get at least 5 females.........


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## SSHZ (Sep 1, 2013)

I thought I'd throw in these are 10 of the nicest looking plants (at this stage) I've grown in years, and I grow out 4 large crops a year. I'm pinching today and future pic's will follow shortly.


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## SSHZ (Sep 3, 2013)

Took a decent pic last night....... these really do look better at this stage then most everything I've done in quite a while. It may mean nothing, but then again it may mean everything. Time will tell.


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## greenghost420 (Sep 3, 2013)

id like to try that wonder kush, i see they used the jedi kush worked to f3 for the cross to WW. sounds worthy....


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## SSHZ (Sep 3, 2013)

Who is breeding that?


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## Jogro (Sep 3, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Took a decent pic last night....... these really do look better at this stage then most everything I've done in quite a while. It may mean nothing, but then again it may mean everything. Time will tell.


Those look great; super short and bushy. FWIW, all the ones I grew looked similar. 



greenghost420 said:


> id like to try that wonder kush, i see they used the jedi kush worked to f3 for the cross to WW. sounds worthy....


IIRC, there are already test reports of this posted on at least one British grow site, and in summary, I think they said it improved the flavor on Williams Wonder a bit and reduced the "couchlock" without reducing overall potency. You can "Google" Sickmeds Wonder Kush and see what you get. 

I actually started a test grow on this, but ran into problems (unrelated to the strain itself) and had to stop the grow. But it is next in my queue. When I get this one going again, I'll post a report. 



SSHZ said:


> Who is breeding that?


If you mean the Wonder Kush, Sickmeds made this cross, and as of the time of this post, it now actually is available for commercial purchase if you want to get some. Again, this is his Williams Wonder x Cali Connection Jedi Kush F3. 

If you're asking who did the selection to create the Jedi Kush F3, I don't know. Either Sickmeds bred it internally, or it was "borrowed" it from someone else. Reddog from Sickmeds does actually occasionally come by and take a look at this thread, so maybe he can answer directly.


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## greenghost420 (Sep 3, 2013)

i saw for sale on herbies i believe...


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## SSHZ (Sep 3, 2013)

Hey Jogro.........since you're on.......do you know anything about SickMed's Hash Plant X Green Crack? I have a 5 or 6 pack of these but didn't want to waste the space until I knew more about them????????


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## SSHZ (Sep 5, 2013)

The W.W. just keeps getting nicer and nicer.........


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## Jogro (Sep 9, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Hey Jogro.........since you're on.......do you know anything about SickMed's Hash Plant X Green Crack? I have a 5 or 6 pack of these but didn't want to waste the space until I knew more about them????????


Indeed, I do. 

The "official" strain name for this is "Pureghani Crack". Its a cross between clone only Green Crack x Breeders Choice Hashplant IBL ("pureghani"). The Pureghani father is an IBL from two excellent old pre-Soviet invasion Afghan hash-making indicas; this doesn't use the Sensi "hashplant" genetics. 

Reddog from Sickmeds was (and may still be) giving these away as a freebee; they were never offered for commercial sale, and this is one of the few from Sickmeds I don't have beans for. So I can't comment from personal experience. What I can say is that this strain was good enough to take third place in the "indica" category in a local competition in the Canary Islands in Spain where Sickmeds is located. It definitely doesn't "suck"!

There is a gorgeous picture of a greenhouse full of these at the Sickmeds Canary Island facility if you want to see what the actual plants look like; just scroll down a bit:
http://www.uk420.com/boards/index.php?showtopic=314387

Direct link to image:
http://www.uk420.com/boards/uploads/1358805094/gallery_73292_5647_32229.jpg



> The W.W. just keeps getting nicer and nicer.........


Those look great, and wait until you see what happens during flowering. Two suggestions, if I may be so bold:

-These will only double in height (or maybe a bit less than double) during flowering, so if you've got some space to play with, don't skimp on the veg. 
-Make sure your odor control is up to snuff; especially the last few weeks!


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## SSHZ (Sep 9, 2013)

1st day of flowering........very excited about these. You can see how nicely they filled out their space! Height in this room is limited, as is lighting so I typically don't go long-veg in here. There is a carbon filter in there but I'll need to double up I'm guessing, as there are also 10 N.L. #5 from British Columbia Seeds in there too. I remember you mentioning the smell, I hope it's not a mistake as the wife cuts off sex when the house stinks too much. LOL

I'll definitely be doing the H.P. X G.C. next time, along with Breeders Boutique "Cheese Chunks", another strain that sounds great I own in seed form. Thanks again buddy for all you do!


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## MidwesternGro (Sep 9, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> 1st day of flowering........very excited about these. You can see how nicely they filled out their space! Height in this room is limited, as is lighting so I typically don't go long-veg in here. There is a carbon filter in there but I'll need to double up I'm guessing, as there are also 10 N.L. #5 from British Columbia Seeds in there too. I remember you mentioning the smell, I hope it's not a mistake as the wife cuts off sex when the house stinks too much. LOL
> 
> I'll definitely be doing the H.P. X G.C. next time, along with Breeders Boutique "Cheese Chunks", another strain that sounds great I own in seed form. Thanks again buddy for all you do!


Those plants look like they're kicking ass! Anybody know if it's true that this strain won't flower outdoors?


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## SSHZ (Sep 10, 2013)

On page two or three of this thread mentions grow it outside, and the buds will end up like footballs when finished. So, I guessing they do just fine outside too.


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## SSHZ (Sep 10, 2013)

An addition........the SSSC catalog, copied below, stated this strain could not be grown outside without starting them to flower inside first. I believe this trait has been eliminated by the breeding process over the years.


[h=1]Super Sativa Seed Club - William's Wonder[/h]M31
A special Indica Indoor hybrid. Very suitable for commercial indoor growing when making use of the plantlet method. Pick out the plants you like the best and reproduce. Heavy yields of extremely resinous buds. The buds are, due to their structure and the amount of resin on them, weighting very heavy. Small, compact plants. You can easily grow 4 crops a year indoors. Experienced growers can yield 1500-2000 grams per square meter per year. Two people could not finish a joint. The plant on the picture has been taken outdoors after flowering was inducted indoors. The plant turned purple because of a very cold fall. Williams Wonder can't be grown outdoors without being inducted to flower artificially previously.


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## greenghost420 (Sep 10, 2013)

2000g per sq meter sounds real good...


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## SSHZ (Sep 12, 2013)

4 days into flowering.... no sign of sex yet.


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## Jogro (Sep 12, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> An addition........the SSSC catalog, copied below, stated this strain could not be grown outside without starting them to flower inside first. I believe this trait has been eliminated by the breeding process over the years.
> 
> 
> [h=1]Super Sativa Seed Club - William's Wonder[/h]M31
> A special Indica Indoor hybrid. Very suitable for commercial indoor growing when making use of the plantlet method. Pick out the plants you like the best and reproduce. Heavy yields of extremely resinous buds. The buds are, due to their structure and the amount of resin on them, weighting very heavy. Small, compact plants. You can easily grow 4 crops a year indoors. Experienced growers can yield 1500-2000 grams per square meter per year. Two people could not finish a joint. The plant on the picture has been taken outdoors after flowering was inducted indoors. The plant turned purple because of a very cold fall. Williams Wonder can't be grown outdoors without being inducted to flower artificially previously.


I believe I mentioned this upthread, but I'll expand a bit here. 

So far as I can tell, that bit about requiring indoor flowering is completely false. I've never heard of any strain that won't flower outdoors when the dark hours are long enough, and it doesn't make fundamental sense. The strain is probably an Afghani indica going back hundreds of years when there was ONLY outdoor growing. How does a plant "know" if its indoors, outdoors, or in a greenhouse? I asked Reddog of Sickmeds why he included it in HIS ad copy and he said that since he never actually grew any outside himself, he thought it was safer to just include the warning until he did know. 

More to the point, people *DO* grow Williams Wonder outdoors, its historically been grown outdoors, and its still grown outdoors. I haven't done it personally, but I know more than one person who has grown it outside, including at least one from "back in the day". A few posters in this thread have mentioned that they used to grow it outdoors. I also believe more than one person has reported to Sickmeds that they've grown his version outdoors successfully. 

So yes. .. you CAN grow it outside, if you like, with only one caveat. 

I think where this "rumor" comes from is that because of the extreme bud density, this strain is particularly susceptible to bud rot. So if you're growing it in rainy Holland, or in many places with rainy autumns, you have to start it flowering indoors early, so that it finishes early, because if it doesn't and it runs into humid September, the crop can easily get infected by botyritis (grey mold) and be ruined. Note that the same is true of many indicas. Afghani plants are acclimatized to arid (desert) climates, and don't like humidity 

On the rest of the SSSC ad copy, its dead on. 

-The "plantlet method" is the same as "Sea of Green"; just that the term "Sea of green" wasn't in wide use until the early 1990s. Because of the large fat central cola and minimal stretch, this plant would work great for SOG, and 20 years ago, this was one of the SOG "standards". The buds are full of resin, dense, and heavy for their size (see below). 

-Yes, you definitely could grow 4 crops of this a year from seed (ie one every 13 weeks) indoors, if you wanted to. That's not particularly remarkable today with short-flowering hybrids that go even faster than that, but in the late 1980s it was a lot more interesting. 

-In my experience one joint is definitely enough for two people. I've already related a story about how one joint couchlocked me and two friends. With this one, I've found that with a nice potent top bud, three puffs from a joint and I don't want any more. This wasn't called "Williams one hit Wonder" for nothing!

And here's another closeup from that last grow. Note the trichrome density:


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## Jogro (Sep 12, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> 4 days into flowering.... no sign of sex yet.





SSHZ said:


> . . . the wife cuts off sex when the house stinks too much. LOL


Coincidence?


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## SSHZ (Sep 13, 2013)

Lol...........


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## SSHZ (Sep 16, 2013)

10 W.W. plants, 2 males, 8 females. WOW.......nice even canopy too. See pic below!

10 N.L. #5 plants, 2 runts were destroyed, 5 males destroyed, left with 3 females. Not WOW.


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## Jogro (Sep 17, 2013)

OK, more than one person has asked me how to post images into threads on RIU, so I'm going to post detailed directions on how to do it here. The directions are long because I'm including a lot of detail, but despite the length of these posts, this is actually really easy, and shouldn't take more than a few mouse clicks and seconds per picture once you've figured it out. 

There are two steps here. First step is getting the images from your digital camera (which could be your cell phone) onto your computer. Next step is getting the images from your computer into your post on Rollitup so that people reading the thread can see the images (this is uploading).

I'm going to start with the second step first. Assuming your pictures are on your computer, and you know where they are located on your computer here's how to get them into your posts on RIU:

*-Start your post, like normal.*

When you are ready to insert pictures,* click on the insert image tab above the text editor you are typing in*. This tab is the one that looks like a little framed picture; its the third one from the left!

After you click on this, a little window will pop up. You have two options, insert from computer or from url. You want to do from computer and that is the default. But if not, you can just *click on the from computer tab. *

*Press select files.* Now a little window will pop up prompting you to select which image files you want to upload. *You will have to browse to the location where you saved your images.* If you saved them in the My pictures folder as I suggested above, , then you will go C drive > Users > your name > My pictures > your pictures. 

Note that if your camera is plugged into your computer, you can use the RIU uploader widget to browse directly to the DCIM folder on your camera (more instructions on this, below), and select the pictures right off the memory card of your camera. So you don't really have to save them on your computer if you don't want to. Personally, I find it more convenient to work from my computer, because then I can browse through the pictures more easily, perhaps edit them, etc, but this is a valid option. 

Anyway, *after you find the digital copies of the pictures you want to upload, you click on the ones you want uploaded, and hit open*. Now the pictures will be connected to the RIU uploader. * Hit upload and RIU will upload a copy of the picture from your hard drive to its server.* This may take a few seconds, depending on how many pictures you're uploading and how big they are. 

Voila, RIU will automatically insert a little picture viewer into your post and save a copy into the attachments part of your account (from where you could delete it later, if you chose to). Finish your post as normal,, and you're done. Anyone wanting to see your picture(s) can click on the little icon in your post and your picture will pop up in a small viewer windown.


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## Jogro (Sep 17, 2013)

How to get digital pictures from your camera to your computer:

Lazy way: If you've taken your pictures from a smart phone, like an Iphone or Droid phone, *you can just use the phone to email the pictures to yourself as email attachments.* Then you go to your computer, open your email, and download the pictures from your email onto your computer. For just a few pictures this is quick and easy, but its slow and cumbersome for a lot of pictures and you incur data charges this way. Make sure you save the pictures into a place where you can find them later (eg the My pictures folder on your computer)

More technical (but overall cheaper/faster) way:

a. *Connect your digital camera (which could be a cell phone) directly to your computer using a USB cord*. 

A suitable cord should have come with your camera, but if you don't have one, you can buy one for only $1-2 from Ebay or maybe a few bucks more from any electronics store. One end of this cord will be a standard USB connection that will plug into any computer, the other end will be a mini USB connection that plugs into your phone. 

Note that almost all cell phones charge through their USB port nowadays. . .so the place where you plug in your charger to charge the phone is going to be same place where you plug in the cable to connect to your computer. Also note there is more than one type of mini-USB connector, so you do have to make sure you get the one meant for your particular camera or phone. 

b. Once connected, your computer should auto-recognize that your camera is plugged in, though this may take a few seconds. With Windows operating systems, the computer will play a tone and may give you a small pop-up to indicate that its recognized a new USB device. 

c. *Open up the Computer folder on your computer*. You can reach this via the little Windows icon on the lower left part of your screen with most Windows based operating systems. Once plugged in, your camera, which has its own internal memory card, should show up as a Device with removable storage as one of the drives. Basically you are just accessing the memory card of the camera this way. *Double click on the camera drive to open it up the internal memory files of this camera*. 

d. Now *you're just looking for a folder called .dcim.* By default, all digital cameras store the image files of pictures in this folder. With a digital camera you may see the folder right there when you open up the camera drive. 

With a cell phone you will probably have to open up an intermediate folder to get to the DCIM file. Also, many cell phones have their own internal memory card AND a separate swappable memory card, and each of these can have its own DCIM folder. So when you connect your phone to your computer two different new drives may be displayed, and you may have to check both of them to find the DCIM folder that contains the digital images. 
*
Once you've found the DCIM file click on it to open it, and all your image files should be listed there*. You can play with the display settings in that particular folder to display the icons from those images, making it much easier to see which are which. 
*
Now all you have to do is copy them from the camera to a new folder on your computer*. If you are going to do this I suggest just making a new folder in your My pictures folder on your computer so you can find these again later. There are two ways to copy. 

One way is to pick up and drop a file by left clicking it with your mouse to highlight it, holding down the mouse button, moving the highlighted copy into the new folder, then unclicking to drop it. When you do this, the computer will automatically make a copy of the file from the original folder to the new one. Another way is to right click the file you want to copy with your mouse, select the copy option from the menu that pops up, then go to your new folder, right click again inside that folder and select the paste option. 

So now you will have copies of your pictures on your computer. To view any individual picture, just double-click on it, and Windows will open up a little picture viewer that will display the picture. You can use this viewer to scroll up and down through all the pictures in that folder, to see all/any of them.


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## Jogro (Sep 17, 2013)

*How to get pictures to display directly in a post:* 

If you want your pictures to display at full size directly in a post (rather than having to make the viewer click on the little image icon to display the images) you can do that too. 

The image does have to be "hosted" somewhere on the internet ifrst. 

One way to do this is to uploaded your pictures to a public image hosting site. Photobucket is one of these free sites, and there are many others. After you do that, each image you upload will have its own unique URL to link to. As long as you know what this URL is, you can get an image to display in RIU (or any other discussion board), just by using img tabs to insert an image into a post. 

For example into your post you copy and past the URL of your image, but enclose it in img tags. For example:

['img']http://this.is.the.url.of.your.image.here ['/img']

Just make sure you leave out the quotes around the 'img and '/img' tags inside the brackets. If you do that, the RIU post will automatically insert the image between the img tabs into the body of your post. 

Alternatively, if you have already uploaded your image to the RIU server, using the widget described in above in my first post on this topic, RIU itself will host the image and will create its own URL for the image. 

If you click on said image so that it displays in full size, then right click on it, you can use the copy image location tab in the menu that comes up to copy the URL of this image from RIU. Then you paste that URL in between the img" tabs, and you're done.

For example, if I were to type THIS:

["img"]https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/grow-journals/2504262-sickmeds-williams-wonder-grow-journal-day67flower-7-.jpg?amp;d=1359614065["/img"] but leave out the quotes (in red) it will show up an image like so:


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## Jogro (Sep 17, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> 10 W.W. plants, 2 males, 8 females. WOW.......nice even canopy too. See pic below!


Untrained, the side WiWo branches are so heavy, they'll go horizontal, so you should probably expect to have to space those pots out a bit more over time. 

Also, as a suggestion, if you haven't already destroyed them, I'd clone off one branch from the nicer-looking of those males, and keep it as a "stud" to pollinate 1-2 side branches from one of the better looking females. WiWo is a true breeding line, so any beans you created this way should be similar to the parents and pretty good. This will effectively cost you nothing, and potentially keep you in beans for quite a while.


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## SSHZ (Sep 17, 2013)

This afternoon I already moved 2 of the 8 plants out into another area so there will be 6 plants total there now.......I figured that out already. LOL

Unfortunately, I destroyed the males few days ago. I was either going to take a few branches for clones or reveg the nicest parent(s)- I haven't decided yet. I was even considering spraying a branch with that "T" stuff to create a male branch to produce some pollen. Still thinking about it all. But I appreciate your comments, as always!

Lastly, I'll be staking these in some form or another as they grow their buds......just a bit early right now.


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## Jogro (Sep 18, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> This afternoon I already moved 2 of the 8 plants out into another area so there will be 6 plants total there now.......I figured that out already. LOL
> 
> Unfortunately, I destroyed the males few days ago. I was either going to take a few branches for clones or reveg the nicest parent(s)- I haven't decided yet. I was even considering spraying a branch with that "T" stuff to create a male branch to produce some pollen. Still thinking about it all. But I appreciate your comments, as always!
> 
> Lastly, I'll be staking these in some form or another as they grow their buds......just a bit early right now.


The stems on these are relatively sturdy, so you may not have to stake them. Don't think I ever needed to, though it certainly can't hurt, especially with the side growth. 

For perpetuation, my suggestion is to take off some of the lowest branches and use them for clones for your next round. They won't get much light anyway, the "popcorn" buds aren't that interesting, and the main colas will just bulk up that much more. Its still perfectly possible to clone these in early flower; I've done it more than once, it just takes a little longer. Don't wait too long, because as the stems harden it becomes harder and harder to get them to root. 

If you want to make beans, certainly chemical reversal is one way to go. FWIW, I got one female plant to "freak out" and make male flowers by leaving it in total darkness for 3 full days, then bringing it into 12-12. If you wanted to do a chemical-free reversal, you could try that trick with a well-rooted clone. 

Also, since this line seems to want to make "bananas" late into flower, its a perfect candidate for "rodelization". That's where you leave a few buds on an older plant after flowering, wait for them to make bananas, then use the pollen from said bananas to fertilize a younger plant.


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## SSHZ (Sep 18, 2013)

Lots of options........I'm also thinking about just ordering more seeds and looking for a nice male again. So many options, so little space. LOL

If it's better then my Grape God, it will be full steam ahead! If not, I'll just enjoy the smoke variety. 

By the way Jogro........were the banana's fertile or not? I've had a number of strains show bananas late, but no seeds/pollen being produced. Curious if you've ever used the pollen or had seeds in your buds. Thanks.


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## Jogro (Sep 18, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Lots of options........I'm also thinking about just ordering more seeds and looking for a nice male again. So many options, so little space. LOL
> 
> If it's better then my Grape God, it will be full steam ahead! If not, I'll just enjoy the smoke variety.
> 
> By the way Jogro........were the banana's fertile or not? I've had a number of strains show bananas late, but no seeds/pollen being produced. Curious if you've ever used the pollen or had seeds in your buds. Thanks.


Well, I don't know how this compares to "Grape god", but I look forward to hearing your review/report. If you like indicas, you'll probably like this one.

To answer your question, the pollen I got from the prolonged darkness induced male flowers was fertile, but those were "full" male flowers not "bananas". Here's a pic of same:



I never got any se-eds from bananas, but I think its because by the time they show up, the plant is already in week 5-6 of flower and most of the pistils are brown and withered. Since it takes a week for them to mature, by the time the bananas could drop pollen its basically too late, the female flowers are way past peak fertility. 

One other poster in thread said he did see a few ceeds with bananas, so its not out of the realm of possibility.


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## SSHZ (Sep 21, 2013)

5 days since the last picture, day 14 in flowering. Loads of bud sites and are further along then I expected.


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## SSHZ (Sep 22, 2013)

2 weeks into flowering today.......found 1 plant that had male pods up and down the center stem at the leaf joints. I pinched them all off and it was the only plant of 8 that I could find any. I'll be watching these a bit closer from now on.


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## SSHZ (Sep 25, 2013)

Filling in nicely......day 17 flowering.


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## Jogro (Sep 26, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Filling in nicely......day 17 flowering.


Nice. Hows the smell?

I think you should just be at the point where you should be starting to get a nice scent of tangerine/grapefruit if you carefully cup a bud and put your nose to it.


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## SSHZ (Sep 26, 2013)

I have no sense of smell, per se, caused by my allergies, meds, etc. But the wife is complaining a lot, so I know it's bad. I'm about to put a second carbon filter in the room to help.


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## Bear Country (Sep 27, 2013)

Viva Las Vegas!!!! Bears version of " Happy Family "


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## SSHZ (Sep 27, 2013)

LOL.......people just post stuff anywhere they like these days. But you are a W.W. lover too, so feel free to post away!


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## Bear Country (Sep 28, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> LOL.......people just post stuff anywhere they like these days. But you are a W.W. lover too, so feel free to post away!



Actually Jogro asked me to post them here!! So I did  And yessss....W.W. is a friend of mine to LOL! Hope you enjoyed the pics!


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## Jogro (Sep 28, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> LOL.......people just post stuff anywhere they like these days. But you are a W.W. lover too, so feel free to post away!


LOL.

Bear was one of several who saw some of my pix and asked me how to post them. So that's why I put my tutorial up here.

I told him specifically to try posting here, if he liked. So it wasn't really "random", I asked him to post here as a test to see if my instructions were good enough. (Apparently they were)!

Back on WiWo, if your wife is having issues with you coming into week 4, she's going to have a FIT in another 4 weeks when your girls REALLY start to smell. If you have the ability to get extra odor control in place, I'd suggest doing so immediately. 

By my "clock", your plants should be ready maybe Nov 11th -15th, get ready for some SERIOUS smell coming into mid October.


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## Jogro (Sep 28, 2013)

Here's a link to another RIU grow report on Williams Wonder:

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/730981-williams-wonder-chop-day-pics.html


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## SSHZ (Sep 28, 2013)

Jogro said:


> LOL.
> 
> Bear was one of several who saw some of my pix and asked me how to post them. So that's why I put my tutorial up here.
> 
> ...



I guess my question is "what exactly is/are the strain(s) in the pics?


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## SSHZ (Sep 28, 2013)

Jogro said:


> LOL.
> 
> Bear was one of several who saw some of my pix and asked me how to post them. So that's why I put my tutorial up here.
> 
> ...




You have me really worried now!!!!!!!!


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## Jogro (Sep 28, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I guess my question is "what exactly is/are the strain(s) in the pics?


That's for Bearcountry to say. 
I believe the lines are all crosses/lines he bred himself. 



SSHZ said:


> [On WiWo smell]You have me really worried now!!!!!!!!


I'm just trying to prepare you.
FWIW, I had to upgrade my odor control twice for this one.


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## Bear Country (Sep 29, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I guess my question is "what exactly is/are the strain(s) in the pics?



SSHZ...There is a pretty good mix in this grouping. I started with a FIREALIEN cutting (Fire=OG Kush/Alien= Alien Kush) I picked up from a good friend (Cali Breeder) and bred her to a super Dank East Coast Purple Diesel male. I have been growing out that seed cross for a while now. I then selected a Male I liked from the FA X ECPD and used him to breed an assortment of different strains which include Vanilla Kush, Cannatonic, Northern Lights, Skunk #1 and others. There are also some pure ECPD in there, along with the original cross I speak of at the begining of this post. The Purple ones you see are a cross of Northern Lights X Skunk#1 X the FireAlien/ECPD cross. The purple seems to be a dominant gene in there as quite a few of the ones I grew outdoors purpled up the same way...at least 50%. The green phenos are very nice as well ,showing just a hint of purple. Quite a remarkable plant with outstanding potency! Of course all you have to do is look at the family line. I posted pics of these same crosses in the outdoor forum. The thread is Show and tell 2013,page 530, if you want to see how they grow outdoors. Very hardy strains that fill out heavy and can handle cold weather remarkably well! So there ya go brody!!

Bear


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## SSHZ (Sep 30, 2013)

Unfortunately, I found another plant this morning putting off male bananas on all it's branches. Been picking them off all morning. So, out of 8 plants, 2 have shown male tendencies so far.


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## Bear Country (Sep 30, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Unfortunately, I found another plant this morning putting off male bananas on all it's branches. Been picking them off all morning. So, out of 8 plants, 2 have shown male tendencies so far.


How far along are they? What week? If your in late flowering...like week six or seven then its not to much of a problem unless you have other girls in there that are in week two or three ETC....then ya..its a problem. I would be willing to put money on it, if those beans were grown outdoors they would not throw out nannas. Unless your seeing the nannas in early flower?? Then it might be a problem outdoors. Its not unusual to see MANY strains that are grown indoors put out nannas in the last couple of weeks of flowering.

Two of those crosses I made showed nannas into late flowering. Keep in mind that they were in there with a whole mix of ladies. One showed in week six and the other showed by week 7. I left them in there with the nannas....I pulled a couple off then said fuck it. We pulled out one little seed so far ( puney) ...so small that it looked like the head of a pin needle...it is nothing to worry about. 

Now those same strain crosses that are outdoors...not a one did that. They are coming down by weeks end as I have about 5% amber as of right now and should have 7 to 10% amber by friday...plus another cold front is on its way. They already went through one night @ 22 degrees and a second night @ 28 degrees. Its to much work to come this far to have consecutive days of hard freezing hit them and it looks like thats whats coming in by friday night...sooooo, time to bring them in!!


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## SSHZ (Sep 30, 2013)

I have 8 of these plants in flowering. One showed male banana's up and down the entire main stem at about 13-14 days. The 2nd plant showed some banana's on secondary branches today day 22. Not on the entire plant, but maybe 4-5 branches. Everything is indoors. I have lots of things going (Grape God, N.L. #5) and no issues otherwise. I've grown literally a 1000 plants indoors over many years.......and some genetics are stable or not. These aren't. That's not to say it bad or not worthy of a grow........... it just becomes a harder grow dealing with it.


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## Bear Country (Oct 1, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I have 8 of these plants in flowering. One showed male banana's up and down the entire main stem at about 13-14 days. The 2nd plant showed some banana's on secondary branches today day 22. Not on the entire plant, but maybe 4-5 branches. Everything is indoors. I have lots of things going (Grape God, N.L. #5) and no issues otherwise. I've grown literally a 1000 plants indoors over many years.......and some genetics are stable or not. These aren't. That's not to say it bad or not worthy of a grow........... it just becomes a harder grow dealing with it.


Agreed, thats much to early to be showing. That means that this seed is unstable and prone to hermie activity. If it shows early indoors it could also do it outdoors. The crosses I was talking about in my previous post, they showed nannas but only in late flowering and the one thing I noticed on both those plants, was that they were finishing early....the one I saw at week 6 ,well was late week six entering week 7 when I noticed, the pistils had already turned and same with the one I found in mid week 7. Now, I grew those same genetics outdoors and I am happy to say that not a single plant out of , lets just say a few , did not show any sign of hermie activity!!!

By the way...just a note. Those girls that I posted on here, well that was a test run. I stressed the living shit out of them during that grow. I ran the room HOT, I deprived them of water, I kept them in small containers...let them get root bound and screwed with the lights a bit. Simply put...they went through hell. Other then a few nannas during late flower on a couple of plants and yeilds not being at thier max potential, they proved to be solid.

I grew W.W. years ago but it was all outdoors and I dont remember encountering any such problems. Some strains just dont do well indoors. The smallest things can cause them to stress and send them to nannaville. Good luck with the rest of your girls..I hope you dont struggle to much with the others.


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## Jogro (Oct 1, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Unfortunately, I found another plant this morning putting off male bananas on all it's branches. Been picking them off all morning. So, out of 8 plants, 2 have shown male tendencies so far.


Sorry to hear this. 

FWIW, I've grown this several times each from ceed and clone, and never NOT seen bananas, but in most cases they were relatively limited to only a few clusters on a few individual buds and typically only started appearing around week 5-6. I never saw any seeding, even when I deliberately left them in place. 

Don't know if it was the 'cause' but the single plant that showed the most bananas for me was also stressed by overwatering, which I had to do to preserve the plant over a prolonged absence. The only plant I had that showed true nodal male flowers (as opposed to "bananas") only made a few, then completely stopped. This was the plant I deliberately stressed with prolonged darkness. Haven't seen a "true" male yet, but I've only grown a relatively limited number of beans, relying more on clones.

In your case, bananas starting at week three is problematic and likely a bad pheno. Please keep us posted. If that particular plant doesn't improve shortly with your work, I'd strongly consider culling it. 

As food for thought, another way to look at it is that out of 10 of your plants, 4 so far have shown significant male tendencies. 

Given the skewed gender ratio (8/10 female for you, and 3/3 for me), I actually wonder if some of these intersex plants are actually genetic males that are phenotypically female (or maybe genetic female pheno dominant hermies). That may sound a little "crazy", but sexual expression in cannabis plants normally isn't strictly male/female like in people or most animals. Simple repeated culling of "pure" male plants for indoor growing after many generations would be expected to reduce the frequency of that sexual phenotype, with increases in others. The fact that Sickmeds had to bring this line back from a small number of viable beans can't have helped here, either.


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## Jogro (Oct 2, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I have 8 of these plants in flowering. One showed male banana's up and down the entire main stem at about 13-14 days. The 2nd plant showed some banana's on secondary branches today day 22. Not on the entire plant, but maybe 4-5 branches. Everything is indoors. I have lots of things going (Grape God, N.L. #5) and no issues otherwise. I've grown literally a 1000 plants indoors over many years.......and some genetics are stable or not. These aren't. That's not to say it bad or not worthy of a grow........... it just becomes a harder grow dealing with it.


Again, sounds weird, but I think the one that showed male pods on the mainstem is/was probably a late-declaring genetically male plant, despite some female flowers. Your one with the bananas is probably just an unusually hermie-prone female pheno. 

I wouldn't use the term "unstable" since usually people refer to overall phenotypic variability with that term, but this line definitely has some sexual phenotype/hermie issues, and yeah, that makes dealing with this one a little bit more work. 

I can tell you that having grown out multiple individual plants multiple times with clones that not only do individual plants put out different numbers of bananas mostly based on pheno, but the same individual plant will put out different numbers in different grows. Unfortunately, since I haven't controlled for temp, humidity, lighting distance, and nutes, all of which varied a bit from grow to grow, I can't tell you exactly which factor/s encourage hermies here. 

My experience has also been that these typically appear on the lower branches. I speculated earlier that maybe this is because of lower light levels on said branches. Not sure. 

Not having grown this outdoors, I can't comment on outdoors vs indoors, but IIRC Reddog from Sickmeds told me he's never seen so much as a single banana on these until he started growing indoors. . .so maybe there is something there.


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## colocowboy (Oct 2, 2013)

> * Simple repeated culling of "pure" male plants for indoor growing after many generations would be expected to reduce the frequency of that sexual phenotype, with increases in others.*


No it wouldn't, provided one used a real male for those successive filial generations! There is simply no correlative factor to influence that change in gametes pairing.


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## SSHZ (Oct 2, 2013)

Thanks both of you for your comments...........after plucking off whatever males pods I've found, nothing has grown back yet so that's a good sign. I'll pluck everyday if need be, I'm not much in the mood to kill any of my plants at this point. I've marked any plant that shoes pods, and if I decide to keep a plant or two around after they finish, it will only be plants that have shown no pods throughout the grow.

This room has the tendency to run a little hot at times so I make sure the plants are well watered.......since they are indica's, maybe I'll let them dry out a bit more before watering every couple of days. I have 28 other plants going of other strains, and not a male pod in site.......

Today, day 24 in flowering. Nice bud development too, way ahead of my Grape God (but will catch up and finish before the W.W. I believe).


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## colocowboy (Oct 2, 2013)

Seems like you got a grip on your situation to me and the ladies are looking good!
Just to be clear, I meant no disrespect to Jogro he is very knowledgeable.


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## SSHZ (Oct 2, 2013)

And a fine grower too........


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## Bear Country (Oct 2, 2013)

Jogro said:


> Again, sounds weird, but I think the one that showed male pods on the mainstem is/was probably a late-declaring genetically male plant, despite some female flowers. Your one with the bananas is probably just an unusually hermie-prone female pheno.
> 
> I wouldn't use the term "unstable" since usually people refer to overall phenotypic variability with that term, but this line definitely has some sexual phenotype/hermie issues, and yeah, that makes dealing with this one a little bit more work.
> 
> ...



Your last statement. I have a good friend who breeds in Calif. He says this is very much the case in many strains...they do wonderful outdoors but the simpliest of things can make them very unhappy indoors. I would like to try this strain outdoors just to answer this question. I think she would do just fine especially since the breeder says so himself. Not to mention that I have seen it for myself with other strains as well.


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## Jogro (Oct 2, 2013)

> Simple repeated culling of "pure" male plants for indoor growing after many generations would be expected to reduce the frequency of that sexual phenotype, with increases in others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry. . .didn't make myself clear here. What I said above implies open pollenization to create subsequent generations. In other words, you're getting some background pollenization from "hermie" plants. In that setting if you're culling out most of the obvious males, but don't ruthlessly cull out every hermie plant over time you're selecting for increased numbers of hermies. 

Exactly as you say, this doesn't apply if you're carefully selecting male parents and ensuring controlled pollination with those. 

Anyway, I just got feedback from another grower who told me he just finished a round of the Sickmeds Williams Wonder outdoors. He saw only a few bananas end of flowering, with no se-eding. He also said he got some bud rot outdoors from late season humidity, something I think is expected with dense-bud pure indicas like this one.


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## Jogro (Oct 2, 2013)

colocowboy said:


> Seems like you got a grip on your situation to me and the ladies are looking good!
> Just to be clear, I meant no disrespect to Jogro he is very knowledgeable.


No, what you said is absolutely correct, and no disrespect was perceived. 

Anyway, its probably a waste of time speculating on why this line likes to put out bananas, we just know it does, usually just a few the last few weeks. 

In the meantime, I'll just pull up a chair and watch the nice pictures from SSHZ. 

The plants are already pretty darn impressive for less than four weeks into 12-12. I can practically smell them from the picture!


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## SSHZ (Oct 4, 2013)

NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!!


Just one picture, I promise, of the best looking N.L. #5 going currently. It's in the same room as the Williams Wonder. They are enjoying each others company, and I'm hoping no "sex" is going on when I'm not watching- or do I? It's by British Columbia seeds, I used to grow it out regularly in the early 1990's. Only 3 females out of 10 seeds, it used to be very good.....we'll see. It the same age as the W.W. too, day 26 flowering. Sorry, I turned the photo, but it's not sticking when downloaded.


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## Bear Country (Oct 7, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> NOW FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT!!!!
> 
> 
> Just one picture, I promise, of the best looking N.L. #5 going currently. It's in the same room as the Williams Wonder. They are enjoying each others company, and I'm hoping no "sex" is going on when I'm not watching- or do I? It's by British Columbia seeds, I used to grow it out regularly in the early 1990's. Only 3 females out of 10 seeds, it used to be very good.....we'll see. It the same age as the W.W. too, day 26 flowering. Sorry, I turned the photo, but it's not sticking when downloaded.


We used to grow out Northern Lights allot. The original NL was some of the best Smoke around for years...still is IMO!! The seed we were growing would produce some of the Stickiest cannabis I have ever seen. It was so sticky that even after months of curing you could not roll a joint....you had to hit it in a pipe or bong. It would stick to anything you came in contact with...so papers were out of the question!!  MMMM MMMM GOOD!!!


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## SSHZ (Oct 7, 2013)

Yup......I started growing 25 years ago with The Seed Bank's (Nevil) "N.L. 5 X 2"..........devastatingly potent, easy to grow, only a fair yield but it could take a lot of abuse. People swore it was adulterated with something to make it sooooooo strong. Nevil recently said in a blog that the strain has been done and gone since the early 90's. I too love N.L.'s, unfortunately I haven't seen anything close to the real thing in many years.


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## SSHZ (Oct 9, 2013)

Exactly a week later......day 31 in flowering. Buds are filling in and are a lot denser. I pulled the plants in a bit closer inward and ran some string around the perimeter. They are only under one 600 watter. Smell is noticeable, even for me but I've seen worse at this point (i.e. Reserva Privada OG Kush #18...a sour stink bomb). Not much difference from last week to this week other than the buds getting larger and hardening up. I see Sea of Seeds got these seeds back in stock for those who want to try it.........


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## Jogro (Oct 10, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Exactly a week later......day 31 in flowering. Buds are filling in and are a lot denser. I pulled the plants in a bit closer inward and ran some string around the perimeter. They are only under one 600 watter. Smell is noticeable, even for me but I've seen worse at this point (i.e. Reserva Privada OG Kush #18...a sour stink bomb). Not much difference from last week to this week other than the buds getting larger and hardening up. I see Sea of Seeds got these seeds back in stock for those who want to try it.........


Yeah, by week 5 these are probably 90% of the final height. Instead of growing upwards, the colas just keep getting fatter and fatter, noticeably packing on weight and density until really the last 1-2 weeks. Max odor is probably week 8 when fresh bud density peaks. Again, keep humidity controlled towards the end, because the super dense buds are susceptible to mold/rot.

On Northern lights, last time I grew that one was 1995 (or so). Didn't quite have the yield of Williams Wonder, nor quite the extreme indica effect, but it was very much a classic short, bushy, piney scented indica heavy plant of high potency. Not only would I love to grow this one again some day, but I'd also be curious to see the head-to-head comparison of this BC version against Williams Wonder.

There is quite a bit of discussion/debate about whose current offering of NL#5 is the best, and if anyone still has a legitimate version. Remember this? https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/601395-breeder-has-true-nl-5-a.html Good info in that thread. 

I think the deal with Neville is that he says the original (clone only) parent plant line that he used for breeding in the early 1990s was lost. But given just how popular, and widely distributed this one was, it just can't be the case that all the genetics have been lost. There very well may be cuts of it (pure or hybridized) in private hands still, and its almost certainly true that at least some of the "name" versions of this contain a good amount of the original genetics. EG some say the famous pre-'98 Bubba Kush clone-only strain is just a cut of NL#5. 

Also, the plant has been so widely hybridized that certainly the genetics of this live on in other lines. For example, all the "OG Kush" variants probably have a good amount of NL genetics in there, and so do Jack Herer, Super Silver Haze, and others of these famous super-haze hybrids.


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## SSHZ (Oct 11, 2013)

I see our history goes back further than this thread. LOL

I think I'll be a pretty good judge for a comparison of the W.W. vs. the N.L.'s. I grew them exclusively from 1988 to 1993, all from Nevil and many, many plants. Most of the old N.L.'s are poor yielders, other then N.L. #5- that's why I moved on to other things. But over the years I still grown many other versions by others- Dr. Atomic, Nirvana, Sagarmatha, Dinafem, and others- none touch the originals.

Nevils comments were directly related to the N.L. 5 X 2 strain........that strain is long gone since the early 90's. But I'm sure some of his N.L.'s genes have been furthered by Sensi breeding- unfortunately for the worse. I would look at Peak Seeds BC for a very good N.L. today, but since they don't do feminized, I passed. Dinafem has their "Industrial Plant", which is very good and a high yielder- but takes a solid 10+ weeks.

My bottom line.......the old N.L.'s are gone, and nothing today really is very close to the originals. If it were, I'd be growing them.


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## Bear Country (Oct 12, 2013)

SSHHHHHHZZZZ....I think the ORIGINAL is still around ( Beans )!!!! Not avail by any breeder per say but the genetics were preserved! As you and Jogro state...it was awesone smoke. Not a great yeild but that is usually the case with something special like NL


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## BWG707 (Oct 12, 2013)

Wow, just noticed this thread. I bought WW beans back in the 80's maybe 90's. I was never able to grow them but I went to a friends house and he showed me his grow and immediately i noticed he didnt have a good strain. I gave him my WW beans and told him good luck. Several months later he told me to come over. I walked in and he threw a 2' cola the width of a beer can to me and began telling me how incredible this smoke was. He nicknamed it "Cartoon bud" because it made you feel like you were in a cartoon. It was the most popular bud around while he was growing it. Glad to see it around again.


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## Jogro (Oct 13, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I think I'll be a pretty good judge for a comparison of the W.W. vs. the N.L.'s.


I think so too, that's why I mentioned it explicitly. Didn't really want to turn this into a Northern lights thread, but hey, that's another and even more famous "lost" early 1990s indica, so why not? If you're interested in WiWo, you're probably interested in NL#5. . .or maybe "should" be!



> But over the years I still grown many other versions by others- Dr. Atomic, Nirvana, Sagarmatha, Dinafem, and others- none touch the originals.


 That bad, huh? Of the current offerings that you've tried, which do you think is the best, if not necessarily the most authentic?

Not having grown this in a LONG time, I honestly don't know which NL version today is the "best", let alone which one is the most similar to the one from the early 1990s, but if I were trying to go back in time, so to speak, I'd be taking a look at 303 Aurora project and MNS "Ortega" both of which are attempts at rebreeding the original from authentic genetics. For those reading this who don't know, Ortega has a reputation of being hermie-prone. 

Also, I think Sensi can at least claim a historical legacy here, but I've heard mixed things about their current offering, mostly negative, and their version is pretty spendy. 



> I would look at Peak seeds BC for a very good N.L. today, but since they don't do feminized, I passed.,


Why is that? Didn't you say that the NL you're currently growing are regulars? And you're growing reg Williams Wonder, right?

Anyway, this one is probably worth a look, and assuming you actually get them, I don't think you can beat the price at only $40 shipped.


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## SSHZ (Oct 13, 2013)

Yes, the N.L. #5's are regulars.......they are in a side room where I do regulars. They are with the W.W.'s. Large room is for feminized to make it workable. 

My point was I've been searching for a really good N.L. for a long time and haven't found anything that could touch the originals. Sensi N.L.'s are now hybrids with new parentage and is not anywhere like it used to be. Mr. Nice Ortega, which is supposed to be N.L. #1 X N.L. #5 is full of hermies and just not that strong. Nirvana's are OK, but again no where as good. Dinafem's I.P. is supposedly the original mother of Jack Herer, the plant. not the man- and is good but way different then any N.L. I've ever seen. I could go n and on. Etc. etc.

I've read something called P91 (I think that's it) is around on the west coast and is original....but good luck finding seeds/clones of that baby!!!!!!

An afterthought on the BCSB "N.L. #5" I'm currently doing. I did this one years ago, and it was pretty good. Everyone liked it a lot. But it's been maybe 10 years since and I thought I'd give it another grow and see how it turns out for shits and giggles.....

But your right, back to W.W..............


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## Jogro (Oct 13, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Yes, the N.L. #5's are regulars.......they are in a side room where I do regulars. They are with the W.W.'s. Large room is for feminized to make it workable.


Since you're currently growing another regular version, I still don't really understand why you couldn't try the Peak Se-eds NL regs if you really wanted to. Regardless, I'm sure you have your reasons, you certainly don't need to explain them to me, and I'm moving on.



> My point was I've been searching for a really good N.L. for a long time and haven't found anything that could touch the originals.


You and everyone else, apparently.  Me too, actually, though to be absolutely clear, I think we're talking about beans here (not cuts). 

For what its worth, if you look at the SC labs website, they let you search their database of tested samples, and if you check out Northern lights, there are several ones sold at dispensaries tested in the last year running at 20%+ THC. I don't know how "legit" these are in terms of genetic pedigree, nor how closely they resemble the older line, but at least somebody has SOMETHING fairly potent that they're calling "Northern lights". 

Not incidentally, two different samples of so-called "Atomic Northern lights" from two different dispensaries, have tested out at 13 and 19% THC, respectively, in the last year. Presumably, those are cuts from the Dr. Atomic version, and so maybe that one does have some potential if its selected and grown properly. 



> Sensi N.L.'s are now hybrids with new parentage and is not anywhere like it used to be. Mr. Nice Ortega, which is supposed to be N.L. #1 X N.L. #5 is full of hermies and just not that strong. Nirvana's are OK, but again no where as good. Dinafem's I.P. is supposedly the original mother of Jack Herer, the plant. not the man- and is good but way different then any N.L. I've ever seen. I could go n and on. Etc. etc.


For what its worth, the original Jack Herer was a three way hybrid that's supposedly 50% Haze, 37.5% NL and 12.5% Skunk. I don't know the exact way this was bred, but its probably something like (Haze x NL) x (Haze x [Nl x (NL x Skunk)]) from two highly select hybrid parents, kept as clones to make the beans. Regardless of how the actual crosses were done, based on the listed percentages, the mother plant of JH has to itself be an NL hybrid of some kind with Haze and/or Skunk, and this alone could explain why the "industrial plant" is unlike pure NL and has a higher flowering time. 



> I've read something called P91 (I think that's it) is around on the west coast and is original....but good luck finding seeds/clones of that baby!!!!!!


The P91 "Poway Class of 91" is a "clone only" from the San Diego area and the story is that this is an original NL#5 inbred by members of the Poway High School graduating class of 1991 who were growing commercially, then later busted in '94. Some say the real line was wiped out in that bust. Don't know if that's true or not (probably not), but believe it or not, buds of this do turn up for sale in certain SD area dispensaries and sometimes even clones do. I don't think you're going to find beans of this anywhere, but if you're OK with a cut, and want this badly enough you can likely get one. 



> An afterthought on the BCSB "N.L. #5" I'm currently doing. I did this one years ago, and it was pretty good. Everyone liked it a lot. But it's been maybe 10 years since and I thought I'd give it another grow and see how it turns out for shits and giggles.....


Well, I'd love to see how this one does.


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## greenghost420 (Oct 14, 2013)

mmm love me some nl5! that 303 happy aurora looked so nice... did you pop those wonder kush ssh or was that someone else?


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## SSHZ (Oct 14, 2013)

?????????????????


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## greenghost420 (Oct 14, 2013)

answers that...lol


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## SSHZ (Oct 14, 2013)

Yes it does..........


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## Jogro (Oct 15, 2013)

greenghost420 said:


> mmm love me some nl5! that 303 happy aurora looked so nice... did you pop those wonder kush ssh or was that someone else?


I've got Wonder Kush beans, but haven't popped them yet. 

I will journal this one when I get to it, but its probably going to be a while before that happens.


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## SSHZ (Oct 15, 2013)

I wonder if yield goes up or down with Wonder Kush vs W.W.???????


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## SSHZ (Oct 15, 2013)

One plants top colas....end of day 37 flowering.


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## steveat (Oct 19, 2013)

SSHZ

How's the smell coming along?

Jogro,

I remember your first grow, but I don't remember you saying that the smell was that bad. You always said tangerine with a bit of skunk. I hope I can keep my grow intact.

BTW. I am just starting a WW grow myself. shall I begin a grow journal?


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## SSHZ (Oct 19, 2013)

Very smelly, for sure. I've had worse though. Biggest thing w/ these is the smell comes on very early, earlier than most. Exactly 3 weeks left so I expect it to continue to get worse and worse as it finishes. There are hints of "sweetness" in the smell, but it's very "Afghani" to say the least.

Journal away....the more, the merrier.


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## Jogro (Oct 20, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I wonder if yield goes up or down with Wonder Kush vs W.W.???????


Haven't grown this yet, so I can't speak from experience, but I've seen a posted journal on this, and it looks like yield is a bit lower than the pure strain. In exchange you supposedly get similar or even slightly higher potency, somewhat less "stoniness", and better scent/flavor. 

I've actually grown a separate tester for Sickmeds, which is also a hybrid Williams Wonder x a diesel dominant cross, and its also a heavy yielder, though a longer-finisher. I may post a report on this, we'll see. 



steveat said:


> I remember your first grow, but I don't remember you saying that the smell was that bad. You always said tangerine with a bit of skunk. I hope I can keep my grow intact.


I'm pretty sure I mentioned in more than one place, that this should be considered a "high odor" strain. 

In terms of the smell quality (rather than intensity) when the buds first started flowering, the scent was of sweet tangerine/citrus. After a few weeks of flowering, the citrus became a little more grapefruit like and was overpowered by a more conventional "weed" type smell. Some people describe this as "skunk", but I don't think that's the most apt description of the buds. The plant does put out a fairly typical skunk scent if the leaves are rubbed during veg, though. In any case, anyone familiar with the scent of cannabis is going to recognize this in short order; it most certainly does NOT smell like a room full of oranges, or anything like that!

After dry and cure, the scent in the jar has a noticeable "floral" quality with a strong classic weed background. One of the other posters described this as "honey skunk", and I think that's reasonable. Dried smell is strong, too; you probably don't want to be walking around with a baggie of this in your pocket! 

As an interesting addendum here, I've just cracked open a jar of my original grow with the buds now cured for well over 6 months. In this time, almost all the green color of the buds has cured out, and the buds have taken on a tan color. Correspondingly, the weed ("skunk") portion of the aroma has gone down, and the citrus/tangerine and floral aspects have come out a bit more. So it looks like this is one of those strains that (at least in terms of scent) benefits from prolonged curing. Maybe I'll post another picture on this a bit later. 



> BTW. I am just starting a WW grow myself. shall I begin a grow journal?


That's up to you, but I'd love to see it. IMO, the more the merrier.

If you don't want to start your own, or are feeling a bit too lazy for a "full" journal, by all means post it into this thread, or even just post an abbreviated one. 



SSHZ said:


> Very smelly, for sure. I've had worse though. Biggest thing w/ these is the smell comes on very early, earlier than most. Exactly 3 weeks left so I expect it to continue to get worse and worse as it finishes. There are hints of "sweetness" in the smell, but it's very "Afghani" to say the least.


I think your experience correlates pretty well with mine. I think what you're calling "Afghani" is probably exactly what I'm calling "conventional weed" smell, above. As already mentioned, I found the last 2 weeks to be the worst in terms of smell intensity, though that's probably true of most strains.


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## steveat (Oct 21, 2013)

I made a new one only because my grow also has another strain and I wanted to keep this post just about William's wonder instead of diverting it by adding other strains. 

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/741825-wiliams-wonder-spoetnik-1-250w.html


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## Bear Country (Oct 21, 2013)

JOGRO, Can you post a picture of those cured buds?....I just want to see if its what I remember from back in the day.


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## Jogro (Oct 21, 2013)

Bear Country said:


> JOGRO, Can you post a picture of those cured buds?....I just want to see if its what I remember from back in the day.


Sure. 
Here they are again from earlier in this thread: 












If I get a chance, I'll see if I can get a new shot of the now 6+ month old buds up shortly.


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## Bear Country (Oct 23, 2013)

Those look beautiful!!! So I'm guessing that they have changed color now that they have more then six months on the cure ha? Nice Nice!!


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## Jogro (Oct 28, 2013)

Bear Country said:


> Those look beautiful!!! So I'm guessing that they have changed color now that they have more then six months on the cure ha? Nice Nice!!


Thank you. 

As promised, here are some new pictures of the buds after roughly 8 months cure time. Again, there has been a tremendous improvement in scent. Almost all of the weed/funk scent has gone away, and now there is just a strong sour citrus/floral scent, kind of like lemon candy. 

Now that I'm actually comparing the old vs new images side by side, I see the color change is more subtle than I thought earlier. I do think the green color has mellowed a bit and you can see a little more tan. 

Maybe its just me, but does it seem like nobody ever actually CURES buds anymore? I always see these pictures of bright lime green buds everywhere. IMO, truly cured buds should have shades of tan and gold in there, a bit like cured tobacco, for the best flavor and smoothest smoke.

Top two images are in room light; bottom one is with a flash to highlight the trichomes/crystals. If you look closely you can see a few nanas scattered around, but take my word for it, you'd never notice when smoking!


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## Jogro (Oct 28, 2013)

Here is a closeup from that last bud shot, just to give some sense of what the trichomes on these 8 month cured Williams Wonder buds look like. The image is just a cropped and enlarged sections from last bud shot, above:







Incidentally, I've just started a new grow report on Chemical Wonder, which is a (so far) unreleased line from Sickmeds consisting of mostly Williams Wonder x Chemdawg genetics. The details are in the report, with the link here:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/744422-sickmeds-chemical-wonder-grow-report.html


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## SSHZ (Oct 28, 2013)

In my 35 years of smoking weed, I've never had anything around long enough for a well done cure. Maybe a few months, but nothing longer than that.

50 days flowering today of my W.W., but having serious dog (pet) issues and haven't done much in the room lately other than water. I'll give an update at some point.


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## Jogro (Oct 28, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> In my 35 years of smoking weed, I've never had anything around long enough for a well done cure. Maybe a few months, but nothing longer than that.


You've never smoked schwagg in the summertime that was left over from the previous years Mexican harvest? 

OK, seriously, I realize I may be a bit of an outlier in terms of this, but I usually won't even test buds until they've cured for at least 4 weeks (after drying). 

For what its worth, breeder DJ Short said he won his HT magazine cannabis cup for Blueberry with year old buds that were too late to enter the year before! He's definitely an advocate of the "long cure". 

Personally, I don't really think buds improve much or even at all after more than a few months in the jar, though depending on the strain, they can improve in terms of smoothness and taste with a few extra months cure time. Of course they definitely can degrade in terms of reduced potency too, so you still want to keep them dark and cool. 

If you've got the patience and want to do the experiment, you could try putting a FEW cured buds into a small (eg baby food) jar and toss them in a sock drawer or something for six months just to see what happens. 



> 50 days flowering today of my W.W., but having serious dog (pet) issues and haven't done much in the room lately other than water. I'll give an update at some point.


 So you should really only have two more weeks on these. Other than (maybe) pick off yellowing leaves, I don't really think there is much more to do on these. If you wanted them to go purple, I suppose you could reduce temps now. . .but IMO that's more of a "party stunt" than anything else. 

Forget the dog. . .what I want to know is, is your wife denying you "attention"?


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## colocowboy (Oct 28, 2013)

I think cure is subjective, different strains have different "sweet spots". I notice that chem/og/SD tend to be better tasting with shorter cures. Some Chem phenos are best just dried out and smoked! Just as a for instance. 

I think the vast majority falls in the 1 month to 1 year category but after a year the taste and thc degrade substantially IMHO. They convert to cbn and then even a good sativa will put you to bed. 

As for the nature of heat, I have had it happen such that I made my self a day sack and carried it in my pocket. To my surprise the turpines were a lot stronger, like the smell and taste were amplified somehow. These instances were while on vacation in hot parts of the country so I was generally sweaty and hot for the duration. Ever have that phenomenon?


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## Jogro (Oct 29, 2013)

colocowboy said:


> I think cure is subjective, different strains have different "sweet spots". I notice that chem/og/SD tend to be better tasting with shorter cures. Some Chem phenos are best just dried out and smoked! Just as a for instance.


Absolutely agree with this. 

This is subjective, obviously, but in my opinion, nothing is "perfect" with JUST drying. IE, I think you still want SOME curing, otherwise the stuff is just harsh to smoke. But I do think some strains really are best right after drying with only minimal curing time of maybe 2 weeks. If you're VAPING the stuff, rather than smoking it, it may be the case that the best taste is literally right off the plant!

In general, think this depends on not only which stain, but also how its grown, how its dried, and what the exact curing conditions are. I strongly suspect that some terpenes are more volatile than others and just oxidize or just disappear faster. If your particular buds have a lot of skunky, or other unpleasant type compounds in there, it may benefit from having some of those disappear with prolonged curing. 

As a counter example, I can tell you that the Green Crack S1 I grew at the same time as the Williams Wonder, stored and cured under nearly identical conditions was NOT improved with 6 months cure time. That one probably peaked after about a month, maybe even a bit less. 



> I think the vast majority falls in the 1 month to 1 year category but after a year the taste and thc degrade substantially IMHO. They convert to cbn and then even a good sativa will put you to bed.


 I think how the things are stored affects this. If you keep the stuff cool and dry it preserves better. Frozen bud can stay good a while, but even that decays eventually. 



> As for the nature of heat, I have had it happen such that I made my self a day sack and carried it in my pocket. To my surprise the turpines were a lot stronger, like the smell and taste were amplified somehow. These instances were while on vacation in hot parts of the country so I was generally sweaty and hot for the duration. Ever have that phenomenon?


Can't be hotter in your pocket than the buds get while being smoked!

I'm sure what you're describing is legit, but I suspect the reason may not be what you think. Stuff in your pocket is subject to friction and pressure and that's probably releasing some of the terpenes and other scent compounds. It may be easier to scent the volatile compounds under differing conditions of humidity. . .that may be at play too. 

I think part of the "long cure" jar phenomenon is sort of the same thing too. Just after having sat in an unopened jar for months, a LOT more of the volatile smell compounds have "come loose" into the air of the jar. Its not that the buds themselves are really any better, just that when you finally crack open a long-dormant jar and take a whiff, all of a sudden you're getting a much bigger concentrated burst of smell that you wouldn't have with a "younger" jar.


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## colocowboy (Oct 29, 2013)

The heat thing wasn't just encapsulated though. For instance I went to Las Vegas for my honeymoon and I had some chem that I had been sitting on (figuratively). I toked it the whole way, I noticed that the flavor and scent became better having left the jar in the car through the heat of the day. It literally got better, more nuanced like the heat baked in some goodness. This was the second time I had noticed a marked improvement like this. I will eventually do some experimentation but there is something to it. As far as quick dry and harsh buds, I have learned to overwater for at least a week before harvest and cut while water logged, in the morning after they have had a chance to pull up some water but before they really get to photosynthesizing. This makes for a little longer dry time but the buds are "soft" on the throat always and are sort of pre cured. Even the green seems to leave faster.


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## OGEvilgenius (Oct 29, 2013)

I can confirm vaping some stuff tastes better almost straight off the plant. Smoking requires at least a month in the jar to get appropriate levels of smoothness in my experience.


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## Jogro (Oct 29, 2013)

colocowboy said:


> The heat thing wasn't just encapsulated though. For instance I went to Las Vegas for my honeymoon and I had some chem that I had been sitting on (figuratively). I toked it the whole way, I noticed that the flavor and scent became better having left the jar in the car through the heat of the day. It literally got better, more nuanced like the heat baked in some goodness. This was the second time I had noticed a marked improvement like this. I will eventually do some experimentation but there is something to it.


Well, merely heating the buds a little bit can't possibly ADD anything in there that isn't already there. All it can really do is cause what's already in there to come out. Unless you're talking fairly extreme temperatures, I don't think you're going to get conversion of one compound to another, either.

Speculating, its possible that heating the jar caused water to evaporate from the buds into the air of the jar, concentrating the flavors a bit. I can tell you for sure that a few points difference in humidity will affect both flavor intensity and smokeability. 



> As far as quick dry and harsh buds, I have learned to overwater for at least a week before harvest and cut while water logged, in the morning after they have had a chance to pull up some water but before they really get to photosynthesizing. This makes for a little longer dry time but the buds are "soft" on the throat always and are sort of pre cured. Even the green seems to leave faster.


That's interesting. I know some people do advocate watering prior to harvest; there definitely is a longer dry time necessary after you do that. Personally, I usually do exactly the opposite. I typically try to avoid watering in the day or two prior to harvest to speed drying, with the specific intention of reducing the chance for mold. 

I can't say I've ever noticed a difference in smokeability with watered vs non-watered pre harvest, but I've also never really done a side by side comparison to tell. Again, since I pretty much always let buds cure for at least a month before smoking, that may mute any difference.


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## colocowboy (Oct 30, 2013)

Ya, I don't think heat is adding anything either I suspect it's more of a "cooking" kind of thing. 

I used to chop like that too, sparsing out the water at the end then breaking down the plant and plucking the shade leaves right away to speed up drying and get it in the jar pronto. I have found that slowing down the dry smooths out the end product. There are some that advocate actually drowning the plant by submersion 7-10 days prior to harvest, it is said to start the cure (conversion of chlorophyll) prior to actually curing. There is a thread on here somewhere about it, I been doing a slightly less intensive version for a few years now. I'll try to find that thread and post it for you, I think you would find it interesting at least.


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## Jogro (Oct 31, 2013)

colocowboy said:


> Ya, I don't think heat is adding anything either I suspect it's more of a "cooking" kind of thing.


This doesn't really make sense to me. When you smoke, you're hitting temps of at least 450F, and potentially quite a bit hotter than that. For example, the center of a cigarette "cherry" can exceed 1000F during inhale, and I think something like a forced air bong hit can probably get even hotter. 

How hot do you think it can get in your pocket, 130F? Even that's probably pushing it. In the grand scheme of things, that's not much hotter than room temp, and it shouldn't be hot enough to do any real chemical conversions or release anything that won't be released in ordinary smoking. Just the hot smoke passing through the rest of the unsmoked weed in a bowl or joint undoubtedly heats things hotter than they could ever get in your pocket. 

To be clear, I believe your story, I'm just saying that other than my speculation about change in humidity, I don't have a good explanation for what actually happened. If it were possible to consistently improve the taste or effect of cannabis by simple warming/heating before smoking, this would be common knowledge, and everyone would be doing it. 



> There are some that advocate actually drowning the plant by submersion 7-10 days prior to harvest, it is said to start the cure (conversion of chlorophyll) prior to actually curing. There is a thread on here somewhere about it, I been doing a slightly less intensive version for a few years now. I'll try to find that thread and post it for you, I think you would find it interesting at least.


Sure, I'd love to see that. 

I can tell you right off that if overwatering helps, it has to be for other reasons than early breakdown of chlorophyll. There is no way that by itself overwatering a plant (even "drowning" it) causes breakdown of chlorophyll. Water surplus is a pretty common natural condition and plants can handle it without self-destructing their feeding mechanism! As some food for thought, if this were really true, something like deep water culture would be impossible. 

To be clear, there is quite a bit more to a cure than just chlorophyll breakdown. That's part of it, but there is also breakdown of larger organic molecules into smaller ones, breakdown of starches into sugar, depletion of sugars, and equilibration of water throughout the plant material. There is also some decarboxylation of cannabinoids, and (possibly) minimal conversion of some into others. 

I can think of a couple reasons why overwatering prior to harvest might help; its not specifically because of chlorophyll. 

By itself overwatering is a flush, and that may aid the final product by washing out salts or other water-soluble compounds. Overwatering a plant may cause some sort of metabolic "stress" reaction, and that may be at play here. If you reduce the plants ability to feed, its may deplete stored nutrients faster. Also, just having more water present inside the plant may prolong post-harvest metabolic processes, and maybe that's at play here. 

Note that plants are actually still alive for a while after being chopped, and they are carrying on metabolic activity for a while thereafter. That's one reason why you're supposed to do your drying in the dark. . .so that the plants use up stored sugars instead of making more via photosynthesis. Some people give plants a 1-2 day dark period prior to harvest, and part of it is for the same reason. The plants will use up sugars, instead of making more, plus absence of light should allow light-sensitive cannabinoids to build up to higher levels.


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## colocowboy (Oct 31, 2013)

Yep, yep, and yup! lol
That's why I like talking to you, you actually think about things with a base of knowledge in your head. 

Here is RiddleMe's study https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog1231-harvesting-drying-curing-research-study.html, and the thread I saw it on https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/357460-drowning-plant-prior-harvest.html. I know there is a lot more to it that converting chlorophyll but like I told you before I am a lazy bastard and don't like educating people so I don't post often. 

puff, puff, pass....


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## Jogro (Oct 31, 2013)

colocowboy said:


> Yep, yep, and yup! lol
> That's why I like talking to you, you actually think about things with a base of knowledge in your head.
> 
> Here is RiddleMe's study https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog1231-harvesting-drying-curing-research-study.html, and the thread I saw it on https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/357460-drowning-plant-prior-harvest.html. I know there is a lot more to it that converting chlorophyll but like I told you before I am a lazy bastard and don't like educating people so I don't post often.


Thanks, I always like learning more. 

Even though we're getting WAY away from Williams Wonder, I think this is interesting. Here's my take. 

There all sorts of stories/myths about overwatering/underwatering, flushing, starving, stressing, defoliating, light-depriving, UV-light adding, and other things you're supposed to do right before harvest to increase potency or final quality. Most of these things come down to somehow stressing the plant prior to harvest, with the idea that this is going to improve the final product. Without addressing the others, to me, this overwatering thing falls into the same category. 

In a nutshell, the idea is that by immersing your plants roots in standing water for a week or so prior to harvest, you'll suffocate the plant, and it will start undergoing anaerobic respiration. In that particular metabolic state, while alive, the plant will start carrying out some of the same intracellular processes that would have been part of a normal cure, only earlier. By the time you cut down the plant, its already gotten a "head start" on curing, so to speak. 

I don't like this idea at all, and here's why:

-I'm pretty sure that contrary to what many in internet-world seem to believe, cannabis plants, like just about every other leafed plant on the planet, are perfectly capable of breathing air through the stomata on their leaves. Drowning their roots in water may not be good for them (eg it promotes root rot), but it won't change oxygen availability to the buds. In other words, the whole premise here is faulty. 

-Even if choking the roots somehow did cause O2 starvation in the buds, any anaerobic respiration related activity that you might have gotten a head start on this way would probably have taken place within a short time after harvest anyway. The majority of the other important processes of the cure, are still going to take several weeks to be done in any case. So even if you did get this "head start" you're still not going to hit the "finish line" of a faster cure sooner. 

-In my opinion, deliberately increasing humidity (eg by putting your plants roots in a bucket of water) the week before harvest is an invitation for mold at the worst possible time. 

Again, I do think there may be multiple advantages to harvesting your plant "wet", so to speak; I mentioned some last post. I just don't think "preharvest cure" is one of them.


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## colocowboy (Oct 31, 2013)

I realize it seems highly suspect, I would probably recommend against it if mold is already an issue as well. It's dry as a popcorn fart where I am and it is simply not an issue. I personally don't go to the extreme of complete suffocation though I am certain it would only improve the result at this point. lol It's counter intuitive I know. I will also quit mucking up your thread but it's pretty interesting and I wouldn't proselytize something without having put the paces down. 

If you do read that thread you will be surprised methinks. Anywho, the implications are particularly interesting for commercial but I attest under penalty of flame the results of this even if just keeping saturated for even a couple days makes a marked improvement. Sorry for driving your thread off topic


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## Jogro (Oct 31, 2013)

Trying to get back to Williams Wonder. 

For the curious, below is a bud shot of the "old" Williams Wonder (left) vs the new Sickmeds Chemical Wonder (right); you can read more about the Chemical Wonder here.


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## Jogro (Oct 31, 2013)

colocowboy said:


> I realize it seems highly suspect, I would probably recommend against it if mold is already an issue as well. It's dry as a popcorn fart where I am and it is simply not an issue. I personally don't go to the extreme of complete suffocation though I am certain it would only improve the result at this point. lol It's counter intuitive I know. I will also quit mucking up your thread but it's pretty interesting and I wouldn't proselytize something without having put the paces down.


I'm skeptical on first principles about the drowning, but there's theory and then there's practice. Maybe soaking the plants in water for a week does help; I haven't actually tried it, let alone done some sort of controlled experiment to tell the truth. 

I just don't think it the explanation given in that thread is good, that's all. 

When I said "myth" by the way, I didn't mean to imply that all these things are necessarily false, just that the stories spread, get distorted, and may or may not have any real evidence to back them up. Apparently UVB supplementation really may increase potency for some strains, and I think its actually been proven with real lab analysis that some strains respond well to light deprivation prior to harvest. There may be something to these things, but the devil is in the details. 

Can you imagine the poor plant that has been flushed of all its nutes, deprived of new ones for 2-4 weeks, then had all its fan leaves picked off, a nail driven through its mainstem, stuck under cancer-causing levels of UVB radiation, then soaked in water for 10 days? Is that plant really going to be better than one given light organic nutes and normal watering until the end? Its sort of funny putting it that way, but people do each one of these things separately, why not all together?



> If you do read that thread you will be surprised methinks. Anywho, the implications are particularly interesting for commercial but I attest under penalty of flame the results of this even if just keeping saturated for even a couple days makes a marked improvement. Sorry for driving your thread off topic


I've read it, considered it, and explained above why I reject this "drowning" idea. 

I'm not at all upset that you're posting about it here. I invited it, responded to it, and I like to see (hopefully) intelligent discussion. I just wonder (cough) how much anyone coming here to read about Williams Wonder cares, that's all. But realistically, I'll just assume that anyone who wanted to know anything about the actual strain got hopefully got their info several pages ago. 

On your experience, again, I'm not at all doubting that you've had great results this way. I'm just questioning WHY, that's all.


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## SSHZ (Nov 3, 2013)

Jogro said:


> Trying to get back to Williams Wonder.
> 
> For the curious, below is a bud shot of the "old" Williams Wonder (left) vs the new Sickmeds Chemical Wonder (right); you can read more about the Chemical Wonder here.




I see those MALE banana's in the W.W., just like mine. I haven't seen any seeds though, and although it was a rocky start on 2 of my plants, the male pods didn't cause any issues- I'm guessing they are harmless. I'm a week away from harvest- 3 plants are further along then the other 5, by maybe a week or so. I'll decide what to do as I get closer.......pic's when I have a chance later today maybe.


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## Jogro (Nov 4, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I see those MALE banana's in the W.W., just like mine. I haven't seen any seeds though, and although it was a rocky start on 2 of my plants, the male pods didn't cause any issues- I'm guessing they are harmless. I'm a week away from harvest- 3 plants are further along then the other 5, by maybe a week or so. I'll decide what to do as I get closer.......pic's when I have a chance later today maybe.


Great, I'd love to see those. 

On this topic, please check out my Chemical Wonder grow, if you haven't already. Its a pretty short report, and should take more than at most 3-4 minutes to read the whole thing (plus it has its own soundtrack now!). That plant also threw out full true male pollen sacs week three of flowering, which (unexpectedly) simply stopped appearing by week 5 and never returned with no apparent issues after that. 

Comments there are welcome. 

I've written on this upthread, but for those just reading now, I've now grown Williams Wonder multiple times now from different se-eds and clones of same, and although every single plant has had at least a few nanas, I've still never seen a single bean. I've always assumed this was just because the nanas come out just the last few weeks of flowering. By they time they are mature enough to make pollen, the vast majority of the plants flowers have withered pistils and are non viable, and even for the few that may still be viable, there just isn't enough time to build se-eds. 

Since I've seen at least one other poster say they HAVE seen a few immature beans in their buds, I would still assume that these nanas are at least potentially fertile. Probably not an issue unless you're seeing them early in your grow (which I personally haven't), or you have other younger female plants present as well. 

In terms of numbers of nanas, the range has been from a limited number only on a few buds, to lots of them on almost every bud on the plant. The above dried bud mage is one of the ones that had the most. I'm completely convinced now that this is genetic, because two different plants grown side by side under the exact same conditions put out different numbers of nanas, and clones of these plants also tended to put out the same amount of nanas as the mothers. For what its worth, the "high nana" plant also seemed to be the most potent. . .so I guess its not all bad!


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## SSHZ (Nov 4, 2013)

Well, I'll know more after I start breaking up dried buds to smoke but I don't think they are fertile. I haven't seen any seeds popping thru, which I normally do when the pods show themselves early in flowering, like they did in my plants. Overall, I'm happy to report it really didn't turned into an issue I thought it might be.


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## SSHZ (Nov 5, 2013)

My most done plant, today at day 58. This one and 2 other plants should be close to done in another 5-7 days, while the others have up to a week longer than that. No nutes now for at least a week, I like them to really yellow up at the end so just plain water.


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## SSHZ (Nov 10, 2013)

Two pic's of a lower bud piece cut for drying and enjoying later tonight......it will be my very first taste of W.W.


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## SSHZ (Nov 10, 2013)

Pretty dam strong, that's for sure.... a perfect late night smoke. It's about 6 hours later, the bud is almost gone. Almost ready for bed......


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## Jogro (Nov 20, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Pretty dam strong, that's for sure.... a perfect late night smoke. It's about 6 hours later, the bud is almost gone. Almost ready for bed......


OK, its been some more time now.

Any comments on the rest of this? Yield? Scent? Flavor? Total harvest times? 

And how's those Northern lights going?


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## SSHZ (Nov 22, 2013)

Well, I spent a 1/2 hour last night finally writing a review, comments, etc and just as I finished, RIU locked me up and made me re-sign in......so I lost everything. Too frustrated now to redo but maybe over the w/e.......


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## Shaker1 (Nov 23, 2013)

very interested in this as well. I got 2 females over a month in veg now (w/3 c99's).


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## Jogro (Nov 24, 2013)

Shaker1 said:


> very interested in this as well. I got 2 females over a month in veg now (w/3 c99's).


I'd love to hear your impressions of this one does in comparison to C99. Whose version of that do you have?



SSHZ said:


> Well, I spent a 1/2 hour last night finally writing a review, comments, etc and just as I finished, RIU locked me up and made me re-sign in......so I lost everything. Too frustrated now to redo but maybe over the w/e.......


Ouch. . .been there done that. . .I feel your pain. 

After having been "burned" this way more than once, now for my reviews and such, I type them first into a text editor, then cut and paste them into RIU when I'm done. Its really only one more step, and well worth it. Also, that way if I get interrupted, or have to come back later, its easy. 

Anyway, if you really can't bring yourself to retype a long review, how about just a general thumbs up/thumbs down, or any comments on notable features (scent, yield, potency)? Did it live up to your expectations? Would you grow it again? Any thoughts about this vs NL5? 

Some guy just posted in the DNA/reg thread that he thought the Sickmeds posted cannabinoid numbers were false. . .his post and my response here:
https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/753398-has-dna-genetics-seeds-stopped.html#post9867793

In short, I can see a number of reasons why someone might not like this strain (scent, flavor, nanas, couchlock effect, etc), but I don't think lack of potency is one of them!


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## Shaker1 (Nov 24, 2013)

Jogro said:


> I'd love to hear your impressions of this one does in comparison to C99. Whose version of that do you have?
> 
> 
> I have KOS's (skunk mag. editor...?)version of c99. not much info I can find on his quality or breeding skills. everyone just refers back to the bros. grimm description. I have one that looks diff. in structure and hoping its a special one..lol...we'll see.


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## SSHZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Well, after a Volcano bag of some W.W., I'm ready to try this again. I'll do it in parts, so be patient. My C99 comments first.

I grew Mosca's C99 for a few crops, which I believe is a Bros. Grim X Reeferman genetics (C99 X C99). Reeferman's was a heavy yielder, and the Bros Grimm was the "Flagship" C99 that most people refer back to. I actually still own some of these seeds, they were the 1st release seeds by Mosca. I think I won them at auction. He's done it a few more times by now. It was only average potency, a good day-time smoke to give you some energy, all head buzz. At night I barely felt it when it was smoked. It yielded very well for this strain, golf ball size (or slightly larger) nugs with good density. The smell and taste was a light lemon/floral/sweetness. No body to it, just mild in both departments. I think I let them go around 65-67 days. It just wasn't potent enough for me..........I've heard good things about Dr. GreenThumbs too.


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## SSHZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Now on to the N.L. #5. This was a staple for me about 10 years ago for 2+ years. I really liked it back then. Easy to grow, yielded very well, and devastatingly potent indica. The were done by British Columbia Seeds. Wherever I was getting these seeds from back then, ran out and I couldn't get them anywhere. Remember, it was 2002 and not too many vendors were selling to the U.S. and SELLING this company's beans.

Now they are basically everywhere, and easy to get. I bought some, and finally got around to doing them. I think I started 10, but only ended up with 3 healthy females. I don't remember the details now. These still yielded well and were done at 65 days. Nice resin production, very large center cola and similar appearance to what I remember. The high now has more sativa in it- a different "blend" I guess you can say. I'd say before it was 90/10 indica/sativa- now it's probably 60/40. Didn't expect that. Pretty low odor too in all stages. It's still curing, but has nice appeal and it has a nice spicyness to it when I chop a bud up. Glad I did it, and I'll be keeping few jars of this around for winter fun! Pic's of this and everything else up tomorrow.

By the way, I have pic's and some comments up on Mosca's thread somewhere on the C99. I think if you do a google on SHZZ with C99, it's there someplace. I think the thread is like 1500 comments or I would look myself.


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## SSHZ (Nov 24, 2013)

Williams Wonder..........Because of everything going on family/dog wise, I basically concentrated most of my time in the big room with the Grape God. I mean water/flush, nothing more. I wasn't spending any time in the room observing, cleaning, etc. I typically spends 2 hours a day with everything, I think I was spending 20 minutes a day at the end. The smaller room with the W.W. got even less attention. Just didn't have the time. 2 of the 8 W.W. developed a spider mite issue, but the other 6 W.W. and 3 N.L. #5 were perfectly fine. I didn't want it to get out of control, so I sprayed my newest find, Flying Skull "Nuke Em". Below are the ingredients:

Citric Acid .....................................................0.05%
Inert Ingredients
Yeast (Enzymes) ..........................................9.43%
Potassium Sorbate .......................................0.02%
Water..........................................................90.50%
Total:........................................................100.00%


Basically it's stuff you'll find in bread. 3 applications, 3 days apart. It killed the mites, but it damaged some plants. By the way, I sprayed all 6 plants on 1 side of the room, the 6 W.W. Some plants did fine, some suffered. All plants were given a thorough washing before harvest one morning before harvest to wash everything off.

Now the details............3 plants turned out wonderful, 3 turned out OK, and two I'll make hash out of. Everything is still curing, and I'm in no rush. This IS long ago pot, not like you find with today's stuff. Pot is so different now, this is more subtle, more "old-time" in smell/taste and "greasiness" of the resin. Yield was very good after just 1 pinching. I got 2.25 oz per plant, which for me is very high. I'd rate the high an 8.5/9 out of 10. It's become my late night smoke, the strongest indica I currently have. It continues to surprise me. I let it go 65 days, and some of the plants could have gone longer. It smells and tastes now exactly like it smelled when growing........no change whatever. It is quite smelly when growing, so be prepared. IT WAS really BAD for the last month or so. Bananas were seen on 2 plants early in veg, but were just plucked off. Bananas were seen everywhere the last 2 weeks or so too, but they must be sterile. I haven't found 1 seed anywhere...........

I still own some of these seeds, and in time I'll grow this again and do a better job with it. I have seen the potential of it and it's high. But some plants didn't turn out well. There was some variation in quality, not necessarily from the sprayings. It's hard to say for sure, and only another grow of it will answer my questions. It's a subtle smoke, and you need to have the sense to appreciate the differences in this kind of smoke. Obviously, some can, and then again, some can't.

So, bottom line, it's as good as a lot of the stronger indica's currently available.........but it's not top shelf "elite" in my opinion. I can think of a number of strains that are stronger, or taste better, or yield more, or smell less when growing or whatever, whatever. But definitely worth a grow once in a while for some variety. Pic's up tomorrow.........


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## SSHZ (Nov 26, 2013)

A pic of W.W. from the crop......you get the idea!


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## Jogro (Nov 26, 2013)

Sounds like you had mostly the same experience with this that I had. The main question I have is just did it live up to your expectations? I can imagine what the answer will be, but I'd also like to hear how you think this compared to the NL and Grape God (if you can). 

Can't say I didn't warn you about the late flowering smell. Hope your love-life has recovered since then. 

On scent/flavor, again, I think you need to let this cure for at least a month before you pass judgement (assuming you can!). My experience is that in the jar this starts out with a strong "weed" scent, but over time that slowly evolves into the distinct and somewhat unusual citrus/floral scent that this one is known for. 

Personally, I think that when developed, this has good. . .but not great. . .scent/flavor, though that's sort of besides the point. Nobody is growing this for the scent/flavor. The line is known for high potency, indica effect, and yield, and I think that's really what makes or breaks this one. 

I'm curious to hear what differences in quality you've perceived between your phenos.


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## SSHZ (Nov 26, 2013)

In my initial comments, which didn't get posted after I got locked out, I addressed the curing issue and forgot to add it the second time. This is exactly the type of pot that will greatly improve with a long cure, maybe a couple of months. Personally, I like either spicey or fruity, and this is neither. It's very subtle right now, but with loads of resin- I know it's in there some place and just need time to develop. 

For a comparison, I did Sweet Seeds "Green Poison" for about 6 crops and then moved on to Next Generations Grape God as my main crop. Both these have more sativa in them than the W.W., so it makes a true comparison difficult. This actually reminds me of Dr. GreenThumbs "Endless Sky" right now. My overall experience with the E.S. was not good, but at this stage the smell and taste are similar. The W.W. is more potent though right now.

Regarding expectations..........if all 8 plants turned out like my best 3, I'd be ecstatic. I've kept all 8 plants separated in containers, so in the weeks down the road, I'll be able to give a clearer response on my experience. The best 3 are very good and I'm smoking them at night- every night. The other plants, though, I haven't bothered with so I can't comment on their potency yet. I didn't SEE much difference in the plants appearance, they all looked pretty similar. I can't comment on the highs yet. But some were further along then others. It could have been the mites and spraying, or more light since they were only under 600 watts, or just genetics. Another grow of it will answer this for me.

What I think you are looking for is this..........the high from this cuts thru the other smokes I have. I can smoke this and it seems to take me to a new level in the evening. I think some of the kushes I've done are stronger. Everyone looks for different things when growing: potency, ease of growth, yield, fem vs reg, etc...........


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## Jogro (Nov 26, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> So, bottom line, it's as good as a lot of the stronger indica's currently available.........but it's not top shelf "elite" in my opinion.


I can see that. You can definitely find stuff that's more potent AND better tasting, if those are your criteria. Not sure you can expect to find anything truly "elite" out of one pack of regular beans in any case. 

For home growers, I think the bottom line test is really just whether or not the strain is a "keeper", or even just if you want to grow it again. Sounds like this meets that bar for you, though maybe just barely. 

On "elite," my issue with that term is that different people use it to mean different things. 

For some people "elite" just means a high quality cut with limited circulation. By that definition WiWo might have been "elite" two years ago before Sickmeds reintroduced it to the commercial marketplace, but it surely isn't now that anyone with $80 can buy a pack! For some people "elite" is just what's trendy at the dispensaries. For some, "elite" refers to rare cuts that offer the "total package" of high yield, potency, and exceptional flavor. 

Personally, I don't care if something is "elite" or not. . .I just want it to meet my own criteria (which are mostly about potency and effect). 

Without beating this to death anymore, I think if you pick a good pheno, this one does compare favorably to a lot of so-called "elite" strains when it comes to yield, effect, and potency. Smell/flavor?. . .Not so much.

If you do know of any strains that are readily available in se-ed form likely to give better flavor with equivalent (or better) yield and potency, by all means, please share what they are!


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## SSHZ (Nov 26, 2013)

A while back I detailed a grow on a strain, actually multiple grows, on a not very popular strain and the prices on them were falling, along with a smaller and smaller space presence on the company's print advertising. Essentially, I was told, I majorly helped revise the strain and it became quite popular. It still is....... Vendors started running out of them, and the prices started rising on them. The breeder even started sending me test packs to start documenting my grows for them...........but I learned a lesson- don't advertise my favorite strains.

But I'll be happy to message you a few things I think you may be interested in........


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## Jogro (Nov 26, 2013)

Wish I had read your last post before posting my rant on "elite". Anyway. . ..


SSHZ said:


> In my initial comments, which didn't get posted after I got locked out, I addressed the curing issue and forgot to add it the second time. This is exactly the type of pot that will greatly improve with a long cure, maybe a couple of months. Personally, I like either spicey or fruity, and this is neither. It's very subtle right now, but with loads of resin- I know it's in there some place and just need time to develop.


Well, my experience has been a fairly dramatic improvement with a few months cure time, but you'll find out. . .assuming you have any buds remaining in that time!



> Regarding expectations..........if all 8 plants turned out like my best 3, I'd be ecstatic. I've kept all 8 plants separated in containers, so in the weeks down the road, I'll be able to give a clearer response on my experience. The best 3 are very good and I'm smoking them at night- every night.


Well, that says something, I think. Clones could ensure that your next 8 turned out like your favorite 3. . .but that's "work". 



> What I think you are looking for is this..........the high from this cuts thru the other smokes I have. I can smoke this and it seems to take me to a new level in the evening. I think some of the kushes I've done are stronger. Everyone looks for different things when growing: potency, ease of growth, yield, fem vs reg, etc...........


That's interesting. From a cannabinoid standpoint, this one has THCV, which I think most of the kushes lack, and that may be what's "cutting through". It also has higher CBD than most of them too. IIRC, CBD actually displaces THC from certain cannabinoid receptors, and that may also contribute to the effect you're seeing. 

Anyway, some good points here. Thanks.


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## SSHZ (Nov 28, 2013)

I smoked for the 1st time last night in 4 days, as I've been sick with a sore throat and cough. Reached for the W.W., and loaded the vape for a bag.

With the family home, I braved the congestion in the living room and proceeded to have a "laughing attack", shortly after. Everyone though I was crazy.

It shows I probably harvested this plant a bit too early, bringing out more sativa effects than indica......all in the head (headband) and eyes (squinty eye effect). But nicely potent none the less!


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## Jogro (Nov 28, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> I smoked for the 1st time last night in 4 days, as I've been sick with a sore throat and cough. Reached for the W.W., and loaded the vape for a bag.
> 
> With the family home, I braved the congestion in the living room and proceeded to have a "laughing attack", shortly after. Everyone though I was crazy.
> 
> It shows I probably harvested this plant a bit too early, bringing out more sativa effects than indica......all in the head (headband) and eyes (squinty eye effect). But nicely potent none the less!


You may be right that you harvested too early, but there could be more to this than just that. 

I've both smoked this and vaped it, and although still strong in the vape, in my experience, you do lose a good bit of the characteristic indica effect with vape. That's not true of just this strain, by the way. . .most "indicas" become more "sativa" like with vape. It has to do with differing vaporization temps of the various cannabinoids. CBD vaporizes at 206C, but THC only 159C. So vaping tends to give you somewhat of a less CBD-rich inhalant then smoking. 

Assuming you have the ability to control temps on your vape, I've found you will get a little more of the indica/CBD effect if you crank up the temp to max possible before combustion. Its still not exactly the same as smoke, but closer. 

Another more definitive technique I've heard of (but never tried) is to run one pass at low temp to extract out mostly THC, then discard it, or let someone else have it. After pulling out a good bit of the THC, you then run a second pass at a higher temp, thereby increasing the CBD/THC ratio for a more stony effect. You'd probably have to play with this a bit to get the numbers and technique right, but assuming you did and were consistent, you could probably have a pretty good control over the final effect.


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## SSHZ (Nov 28, 2013)

Hum......makes a lot of sense actually. I use a Volcano, and generally just crank up the temp to the highest setting. It could also be this particular plant, but it sure looked done when I picked it out the from the container. No matter though, I was absolutely blitzed! 

I go back and forth between my Roor and the Volcano- but i find I always get higher when smoking from the vape. I always attributed it to the fact that fire destroys some of the resin in the burning process, while the vape doesn't. 

Time for my favorite past times-----football and smoking!


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## SSHZ (Nov 28, 2013)

Hey Jogro........I thought u may be interested in what I'm now growing in my small room. 20 plants started, non fem, hoping to end up with 12 plants. 100% germination, off to a flying start. I know, it's sativa, but another old-time smoke none the less.

http://www.seedbankreview.com/insane-seed-posse-cantaloupe-skunk/


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## steveat (Nov 29, 2013)

How are you guys on phenos?

What phenos have you seen with WW (SSSC)? Jogro...I remember you saying a tangerine-ish type smell. Mine doesn't smell anything like it and it's in veg. It has a dankier..almost burnt rubber smell, but it's not. The internodes are almost perfectly symmetrical. They are pretty much the same distance from each other and there are about 12 nodes now. 

I popped in 3 more ceeds and they are already in cups now. I just want to make sure I got a female. Out of 4 possible ceeds, one seems to not be germinating. It's been about 3 days and nothing, but I have waited 6 days before. I'm gonna keep trying and give up on Sunday if this last ceed doesn't pop.


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## Jogro (Nov 30, 2013)

I can't speak to the SSSC pheno variation, since I've never grown any from SSSC packs. Supposedly the line was pretty uniform even then. 

From Sickmeds, the pheno variation I've seen is pretty minimal. I've seen some variation in height, and some variation in number of "nanas" during growing. But overall plant structure, smell and taste are pretty similar. 

On the tangerine scent I mentioned, you're not going to get that during veg at all. During veg, you get a pretty characteristic indica "skunky" smell, which I think you could fairly describe as "burned rubber". 

The tangerine scent doesn't appear until you have good flower clusters, maybe the third week of flowering. It only sticks around for maybe 2-3 more weeks before a strong "weed"/indica scent takes over. The "weed" scent becomes VERY strong last few weeks of flowering to the point where you better have your odor control in place, and will dominate in your buds during curing for at least 1-2 months. 

After a prolonged cure the weedy scent goes mostly away, and the underlying citrus scent comes out again. At this point the buds will be left with the characteristic citrus/floral scent the strain is known for. Some people call this "honey lemon" or "lemon candy", and IMO both of those are reasonable descriptions. 



> I popped in 3 more ceeds and they are already in cups now. I just want to make sure I got a female. Out of 4 possible ceeds, one seems to not be germinating. It's been about 3 days and nothing, but I have waited 6 days before. I'm gonna keep trying and give up on Sunday if this last ceed doesn't pop.


Many times I've had individual se-eds take more than a week to germinate; personally I wouldn't give up on this one until at LEAST ten days.


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## Jogro (Nov 30, 2013)

SSHZ said:


> Hum......makes a lot of sense actually. I use a Volcano, and generally just crank up the temp to the highest setting. It could also be this particular plant, but it sure looked done when I picked it out the from the container. No matter though, I was absolutely blitzed!


It well could be the plant. If you've vaped OTHER WiWo buds and had different effect, or smoked this one with the same effect, then there's your answer. 

I'm just saying that in general vaping and smoking will give different effects. You'll get closer with the highest possible temp, but so far as I know, there is no setting on any vape that will give the same exact effect as smoking. Can't remember if I've vaped the WiWo (think so), but I've recently smoked AND vaped the ChemWo, and the effect is different, despite max pre-combustion vape temps. 



> I go back and forth between my Roor and the Volcano- but i find I always get higher when smoking from the vape. I always attributed it to the fact that fire destroys some of the resin in the burning process, while the vape doesn't.


Well this is pretty complicated. Its true that combustion destroys some of the cannabinoids, but its also true that overall extraction efficiency of vape typically isn't quite as high as smoking. Personally, I think the leftover vaped bud is disgusting, and I'd rather go without than reuse it, but this is why some people will use the leftover spent buds from vaping for cooking. 

Anyway, in my experience vaping gives a much more cerebral "spacier" effect. Vaping also lets you take much bigger hits, and that can be affecting the perceived quality of the experience as well. 



> Time for my favorite past times-----football and smoking!


Watching it while smoking. . .good. Playing it while smoking? Don't think I want to do that (or certainly not with WiWo!) Maybe smoking it AFTER playing football!

On Cantaloupe Skunk, yeah. . .that's some serious old-school stuff. I'd love to try that one some day, particularly grown outdoors!


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## SSHZ (Dec 9, 2013)

Hey Jogro.....thought I'd check back in and tell you how much I'm enjoying the Williams Wonder. It's my late night smoke, usually around bed time. I haven't noticed any build up of tolerance, and I'm smoking it daily. And it keeps getting better and better as it continues to dry out and cure better. YUMMY!!!!!!!!


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## Shaker1 (Jul 22, 2014)

Greetings....gonna bump this thread as I have a Williams wonder I just put in the dark today at 70 full days of flower. it still looks like it could go a bit longer. my untrained eye see's bunch of cloudy trichs but cant distinguish much amber. should I have let it go based on pistles? sickmeds says 65 days. this is a clone off the first one I took at 65 days. plus, I got 1 conformed female and 2 possible males from seed looking really nice as well. any info would be greatly appreciated. the pic is at 68 days....one other thing...ive read a lot about hermies with this strain/breeder but...I found 2 I think on the first one and none on this one so....not sure the deal there...


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## SSHZ (Oct 15, 2014)

Hey Jogro......if you happen too check back in- I did a N.L. X Big Bud from World of Seeds that turned out very well. It's a very popular strain and it was freebie seed from Attitude or Herbies. It's a keeper......


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## wannagrow1 (Jan 13, 2015)

Jogro said:


> OK, started two random ceeds from the pack into soil in 16 ounce cups.
> 
> I cover the plants with 1/4 inch of soil, mist heavily on top with water, and put a plastic bag over the top so they don't dry out. Cups are put about eight inches under a 13(!) watt CFL, just to give them something to "aim" at when they break soil.



Hi Jogro, I had already purchased this wonderful ceed for my first grow before I found your journal, this has been sooooo helpful. I have a couple of questions which I'll try to ask at each post:

Here did you germinate the seeds first or place directly in the cups?

I planned to use a 150 watt HID light for the entire grow, any thoughts? Growing in the midatlantic where temps can fluctaute from 20 to 50 degrees every few days

Your input is most valued...


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## SSHZ (Jan 29, 2015)

FYI.......150 watts isn't enough to grow 1 decent plant. Just not enough lumens.


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## Jonesy343 (Sep 27, 2015)

I'm just starting my Williams's wonder gro rite now.​


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## BudMan'10 (Sep 29, 2016)

Ran one of these in the spring, great plant to grow, very pleased with the results...lovely indica smoke.


popped a few more today...

Peace
BM


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## Blaze_420 (Oct 29, 2016)

I saw @Jogro mention the DNA genetics 60 Day Wonder Variation of this strain. I bought a pack as I really wanted to try this strain and couldn't find it easy so I went with this. 

I haven't seen much on this so I will post after I germ them. I am pretty excited though I'm worried as you mentioned their version was unstable. I wonder if it's any different now than 3 years ago. I'll post a report on this. It will be my next seed I start so I'll let you know. Very excited to. Thanks for posting BudMan10 so I found this.


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## BudMan'10 (Nov 2, 2016)

My pleasure brutha, good luck with your grow, incidentally, no nanners in sight on the first go round...

Peace
BM


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## yankeetransplant (Jul 4, 2017)

I realize this thread died at least 7-8 months ago, but man does Williams Wonder bring back memories.....I started hydro growing in 1980 and within a cpl yrs found 2 seed catalogs...SSSC and The Seed Bank...both were found by me, being an avid reader of High Times mag...I quickly took a liking to SSSC and spend a few days scrutinizing the strains and M31 (William Wonder) was the winner...So my cash was placed btwn carbon paper and mailed off to Amsterdam with close to NO EXPECTATION I would ever actually get them...early 80ies, preinternet, mailing cash overseas, WHO would have figured that a CPL MONTHS later, there was a padded manilla envelope in my mailbox..had a Wichita Kansas post mark on it...I will never forget it....I ended up with 7 females I appropriately called #1,#2,#3 and so on....These were listed in the catalog as 45 day flowering, and indeed they were....I lived in the burbs of Boston and NOBODY had ever smoked ANYTHING like this...it was like 7 Skittles of the weed world...Each was unique in smell and taste but similar in structure and yield...flavors and smell all VERY DIFFERENT with each...honeysuckle, piney fruit, black hash, pez candy, floral, but ALL SUPER STINKY...I immediately started jarring in masons...ppl loved that...u had to!!!..otherwise it would permeate from a baggie, to your socks in the drawer, into the bedroom, right out into the rest of the house...I MEAN SUPER STINKY...I still grow and have not found another strain this LOUD!!!!...heady to start, but quickly enveloped you in a way weed just did not do in the early 80ies...WOW...ppl I knew out of town would drive 8 hrs when it was ready to get some....in 89, I moved to Orlando Fl, AND ANYBODY that was in Orlando during the early to mid 90ies, probably smoked my WW....It snowballed out and I was also sharing HUNDREDS of cuttings every crop, which was a (6) 1k light, 2 bdrm set up...Dozens of ppl were also growing WW there and thats why you probably came across it in Orlando.....Anyways, it was the start to my, now 37 yr grow career and will always be close to heart...I see that it is now listed as 60-65 day flowering plant....Many GREAT original strains got bastardized over the years...Somehow, someone THOUGHT they could improve on it...A SHAME!!!!!....I would LOVE to still have my original cut of 45 day WW....I expect the old school genetics are gone...a true legend!!!!!


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## yankeetransplant (Jul 4, 2017)

Heres a tip to some...I was just talking about a LOT of Williams Wonder cutting...Many are not aware, you can submerge fresh cuttings into a jar of water, put them in the frig and root hormone them and stick them 2 or 3 days later will complete success...I never kept any longer than day 3 before them getting stuck, but its a GREAT WAY to keep a strain during a mover or long transport...when I moved from Mass to florida, all 20 of the cuttings I had in a jar of water, in a cooler of ice, rooted just fine...We shared thousands over the yrs in Orlando, and everyone was unrooted in a jar of cold water....nice little trick...


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## Grizzlydon (Nov 10, 2019)

Jogro said:


> Well, after quite a long wait, Williams Wonder seeds finally are available again.
> 
> The breeder is Sickmeds seeds, a new breeder working out of Spain, and he's offering regular seeds that are supposedly derived right from beans he grew out of an old pack of Super Sativa Seed Club seedstock.
> 
> ...





Jogro said:


> Well, after quite a long wait, Williams Wonder seeds finally are available again.
> 
> The breeder is Sickmeds seeds, a new breeder working out of Spain, and he's offering regular seeds that are supposedly derived right from beans he grew out of an old pack of Super Sativa Seed Club seedstock.
> 
> ...


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## yankeetransplant (Nov 10, 2019)

I'm looking forward to hearing about your W.W. grow....Its the 1st REAL STRONG strain that I obtained back in 1985 when SSSC first opened....Fortunately, I had a few yrs of grow experience prior to that, but only with the best BAG SEEDS I could obtain....The original W.W. was AMAZING...hopefully those are the original genetics...you will be very happy...I grew it for nearly 15 yrs, alongs with some others that were coming out....The original was listed as 45 day flowerer....I'm guessing that was only because the REAL test of ripeness was not yet known (when amber Trich heads start to appear)...but I always harvested mine according to the 45 day spec and it was just fine...Good luck and have fun with it....Cutttings ofnWW were the easiest I have ever done....Mine would fully root in a week...YT


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## VONDANK420 (Nov 10, 2019)

Jogro said:


> Here's a clone 11 days after cutting.
> 
> Again, its cut stem with razor, strip leaves with same, dip bottom into rooting powder, stick in cup of water under light, wait.
> 
> ...


Love the Hi-Tech Starbucks cloner bro.
And I hope the old genetics of Willam is there...


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