# 400w vertical... Number of plants.



## rickymac21 (Sep 16, 2013)

Hey RIU, I know I have a recent thread like this but I didn't really get the clarification I was hoping for so I decided to try again and see what you all think.. Bare with me. 

Set-up:
-400w hps with cooltube
- 4'w x 4'd x 3.5'h 
- Growing medium: Coco with drip system (or hand fed if some of you recommend this)
- Strains: Querkle, Sour kosher, Silver Kush, Skywalker OG, Critical Plus, Punky Lion, and Marian Kush.
- GH nutrients with Humbold additives.

My question is how many plants should I put in there? My goal is to reach .75 gpw... I have done soil and hydro so I decided to I want to try coco, but not sure if I should use a drip system or hand feed it. 

I thought I could do 12 plants in 5 gallon pots vegged for 1 month (or to a height of 12-14 inches). With a 400w, to reach .75 gpw each plant would need to give me 25 grams. 

Another option I thought of would be to basically double the number of plants and cut everything else in half. So 24 plants in 2 gallon pots vegged for 2 weeks. I would have to levels as well, so 12 on the floor and about 12" up I would have another shelf with 12 plants... With this each plant would need to produce 12.5 grams to give me .75gpw...

Any opinions on either the number of plants or the drip system vs hand feed. ???


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## rickymac21 (Sep 16, 2013)

Bump................


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## whodatnation (Sep 16, 2013)

Plant numbers really depend on your time. Higher plant number means less veg= quicker return, but more work. Long veg means less plants but bigger plants = less maintenance. Now it just comes to genetics. Some strains dont stretch very much when flipped while others can triple+ their size when flipped. Understanding your genetics will help you to maximize everything. I also dont think you need 5gal containers for plants only vegged for 4 weeks, 3gal should be plenty. 

If you have the drip figured out and plant numbers arn't a problem for you I like the double decker idea with 24 plants, then again I have time and like the idea of bigger plants with less work. 

Think about a screen or stakes to support the plants and encourage them to flatten out for the vert light.


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## rickymac21 (Sep 16, 2013)

whodatnation said:


> Plant numbers really depend on your time. Higher plant number means less veg= quicker return, but more work. Long veg means less plants but bigger plants = less maintenance. Now it just comes to genetics. Some strains dont stretch very much when flipped while others can triple+ their size when flipped. Understanding your genetics will help you to maximize everything. I also dont think you need 5gal containers for plants only vegged for 4 weeks, 3gal should be plenty.
> 
> If you have the drip figured out and plant numbers arn't a problem for you I like the double decker idea with 24 plants, then again I have time and like the idea of bigger plants with less work.
> 
> Think about a screen or stakes to support the plants and encourage them to flatten out for the vert light.


I understand the veg time to number of plants.... With veg time not a concern in either of the scenarios, which would be likely to yield more? I have read that the higher the plant count the better the yield.. But then I see people say that longer veg time will give a larger yield. To me it almost seems obsolete in a vertical grow because if you have tall plants in vertical, the light will penetrate all up and down each plant as apposed to horizontal where it only penetrates so far down the canopy... And with lots of smaller plants, it's the same thing as taller plants. . .

But from previous experience, If I can get 24 plants in there vegged for 2 weeks, I believe it would be easier to reach my .75gpw goal. Simply because getting a plant to yield 12.5 grams SHOULDN'T be that difficult.... But like wise, If 12 plants vegged for 4 weeks will yield the same I'd rather do that.


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## whodatnation (Sep 16, 2013)

If done right I dont think it matters either way.


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## rickymac21 (Sep 16, 2013)

Well I think I'll just try the 12 ladies first and see how it turns out... I'll probably grow out some mothers and try the 24 plant two level style later on... Btw whodatnation, I took a look at your vert grow in your sig and it looks legit. Nice job on the room !


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## rickymac21 (Sep 17, 2013)

So I dug up an old thread and found this monster... Came from someone growing single colas in a standard horizontal set up... Now if I were to take say 12-16 clones, veg them out to 10-12" and do a slight lollipoping to minimize side branching, I could achieve this right? There would be some side branches but not enough to create a mess in there... I mean especially with a vertical set up, the light will be penetrating up and down the plant no problem.. Maybe even some fluero's on the walls behind the plants just for extra assurance (and maybe some more trich production if uv bulbs are used).... Now 16 plants that turn out like that would have to be a reasonable yield. (16 plants) x (25grams per plant) = 400grams/1gpw.... I know you can't count your chickens before they hatch, but does this seem reasonable?


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## rickymac21 (Sep 17, 2013)

I should note: That plant above^^^ was flowered at 8" as apposed to my idea of flowering at 12"...


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## rickymac21 (Sep 17, 2013)

Just for fun, here is another picture I pulled from the same thread.. Goes along with my idea but these girls are a little 'less swollen' for lack of a better words... Yet if these were vegged a week or two longer and weren't lolipoped so severely they would have yielded pretty well... I'm thinking the 12-16 plant in a circle might be a good start for the first vertical grow. Veg time is gonna be something I'm gonna have to dial in to make sure I can fill it out with out crowding the room.


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## fir3dragon (Sep 17, 2013)

12 plants in a 4x4 is gonna be hard. Plus you should have a fan blowing up on the bulb


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## rickymac21 (Sep 17, 2013)

fir3dragon said:


> 12 plants in a 4x4 is gonna be hard. Plus you should have a fan blowing up on the bulb


What do you mean by "hard" ? they will only be in 3-4 gallon pots, and like I said, I will be trimming any lower branches that will extend too far from the stalk... And as far as a fan, what's wrong with my cool-tube and inline fan? Seems a lot more efficient than just a fan blowing hot air around.


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## fir3dragon (Sep 17, 2013)

I thought you were going bare bulb. I still don't know because you need clearance from the tube so they don't bleach all I can say is try it lol.


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## kinddiesel (Sep 17, 2013)

first off. a 400 watt, should be open not cool tubed, if heat is not an issue. second you have way to many plants per light. 400 watt light . open reflector. 6 plants 3 gallon pots. 1 foot height before start flower. placing the light a foot or so away from plants, return 6 ounces. 12 plants your way cool tube. light height will have to be about 4 feet over head. to spread all plants. yield . 1/4 each plant, my educated guess only . 20 years experience.


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## rickymac21 (Sep 17, 2013)

kinddiesel said:


> first off. a 400 watt, should be open not cool tubed, if heat is not an issue. second you have way to many plants per light. 400 watt light . open reflector. 6 plants 3 gallon pots. 1 foot height before start flower. placing the light a foot or so away from plants, return 6 ounces. 12 plants your way cool tube. light height will have to be about 4 feet over head. to spread all plants. yield . 1/4 each plant, my educated guess only . 20 years experience.


Im not trying to question your opinion, but why not use the cooltube? Will the metal edges (where ducting connects) shorten the light distribution? And 6 ounces still seems low. I am shooting for 300 grams per 400w. I know people are getting well over 1 gpw so I don't see how my goal is unrealistic.


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## whodatnation (Sep 17, 2013)

I agree about the cool tube, if you got ac and heat is not a giant issue for you then ditch the tube and go barebulb. Its the actual glass that blocks light, also the whole thing seems to hold and radiate heat. I used to run cooltubes, but have since resorted to giving them away. 

I would say you have a very realistic goal, but you have to understand genetics are a HUDGE part of it, be ontop of that, then plant health and a proper environment all need to be in check. If any one of these things becomes and issue then your yields will decline sharply.


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## coldrain (Sep 17, 2013)

kinddiesel said:


> second you have way to many plants per light. 400 watt light . open reflector. 6 plants 3 gallon pots. 1 foot height before start flower. placing the light a foot or so away from plants, return 6 ounces. 12 plants your way cool tube. light height will have to be about 4 feet over head. to spread all plants. yield . 1/4 each plant, my educated guess only . 20 years experience.


I concur with this. I currently have 8 plants in 5 gal pots that are surrounding a 1000W bulb and that's almost too many plants given that they're all over 3' tall. If I tried to put more pots in the circle the interior diameter would be too large and the plants would be too far away from the bulb. Whatever pot size you decide to go with, lay them out empty with their trays and see how everything fits. Also, unless you're going to multi-tier your plants, it doesn't make much sense to grow vertically if your plants are short. In a vertical grow, square footage is mostly determined by vertical height, so the taller the better, at least up to a point. If your plants are short, you might actually be getting less square footage than you would if you grew with a horizontal reflector. 

As for yield, the numbers that you are throwing out are not unheard of, but you're being really optimistic. If you don't have the right genetics, you won't be able to achieve that sort of yield no matter how good you are at growing. But, nobody knows better than you what genetics you're working with, so I'm assuming that you have heavy yielding strains. 

I have no opinion about the cool tube, but I've never seen someone use a cool tube with a 400w since they don't generate a lot of heat. If you're growing in a room with an ambient temperature that's always in the mid 70's or higher (with the light off), I could see the benefit of a cool tube. Otherwise, you probably don't need it. I don't use a cool tube with my 1000w, but I grow in a basement and it never gets hot down there.


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## rickymac21 (Sep 17, 2013)

coldrain said:


> I concur with this. I currently have 8 plants in 5 gal pots that are surrounding a 1000W bulb and that's almost too many plants given that they're all over 3' tall. If I tried to put more pots in the circle the interior diameter would be too large and the plants would be too far away from the bulb. Whatever pot size you decide to go with, lay them out empty with their trays and see how everything fits. *Also, unless you're going to multi-tier your plants, it doesn't make much sense to grow vertically if your plants are short. In a vertical grow, square footage is mostly determined by vertical height, so the taller the better, at least up to a point. If your plants are short, you might actually be getting less square footage than you would if you grew with a horizontal reflector. *
> 
> As for yield, the numbers that you are throwing out are not unheard of, but you're being really optimistic. If you don't have the right genetics, you won't be able to achieve that sort of yield no matter how good you are at growing. But, nobody knows better than you what genetics you're working with, so I'm assuming that you have heavy yielding strains.
> 
> I have no opinion about the cool tube, but I've never seen someone use a cool tube with a 400w since they don't generate a lot of heat. If you're growing in a room with an ambient temperature that's always in the mid 70's or higher (with the light off), I could see the benefit of a cool tube. Otherwise, you probably don't need it. I don't use a cool tube with my 1000w, but I grow in a basement and it never gets hot down there.


Thanks for the input coldrain. I know multi-tier would be optimum for vertical. My room is weird as the ceiling is slanted. So at one end of the grow box the max height is just under 4ft (about 45"). But the opposite end of the box is just over 5 ft (about 62")... For a 400w I feel like that 4 ft height is pretty much maxing it out. especially since my floor space is only 4'x4' (not that I could go any larger only using a 400w)... But anyways. say you have a 3'x3' floor space and 400w growing horizontal. For S.O.G someone might 1 plant per sq ft with a week or two of veg, then flip to flower.. This would be 9 plants that would probably end up around 20" tall, (just a guestimation for this comparison). Now take the same light, veg time, number of plants and nutrients only do a vertical grow.. So 9 plants surrounding the 400w with only two weeks veg (could go a week longer since the light isn't taking up vertical space now)... To me regardless if I use the rest of the vertical space, the vertical grow would out perform the horizontal grow simply because of the light distribution amongst each plant.. Is that a valid assumption? 



After all this has been said though I'm starting to think about a slightly different method just because it seems easier for what I'm use to.. I might just upgrade to a 1000w and do straight S.O.G with about a week veg (just for extra root growth)... I could do a little half stadium deal where only two sides of the box have tiers instead of tiers on all sides like a true stadium... I would do a true stadium, but since the room I'm growing in has that slanted ceiling, my max width of the room can only be 4'. but the length can be anywhere from 4'-27' (definitely wouldn't do 27',just making a point) 

Anyhow, the dimensions of the half stadium would be 4' deep by 6-8' wide by 4' tall.. The 6-8' would be where the tiers climb up, if that makes sense. . . . I'm just looking to get heavy yields and apparently the 400w isn't gonna cut it.


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## rickymac21 (Sep 17, 2013)

By the way, I really don't know my strains yet as I just got rid of the old girls and got new beans in....

Skywalker OG
Martian Kush
Querkle
Silver Kush
Critical Plus
Punky Lion
Sour Kosher

Out of those I suspect the critical plus, martian kush, punky lion and querkle will be my best bets for getting shorter tighter plants.


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## smokey bacon (Sep 17, 2013)

hi: smokey herer
not more than an amateur here but running barer bulb is the way to go cool tubed radiate heat and block light just be careful when working in ur grow space ware dark shade glasses 
check out my post smokey is back sorry dudes just tryin to share the love lm running bare bulb 400W hps
will post setup pics later


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## coldrain (Sep 19, 2013)

rickymac21 said:


> Thanks for the input coldrain. I know multi-tier would be optimum for vertical. My room is weird as the ceiling is slanted. So at one end of the grow box the max height is just under 4ft (about 45"). But the opposite end of the box is just over 5 ft (about 62")... For a 400w I feel like that 4 ft height is pretty much maxing it out. especially since my floor space is only 4'x4' (not that I could go any larger only using a 400w)... But anyways. say you have a 3'x3' floor space and 400w growing horizontal. For S.O.G someone might 1 plant per sq ft with a week or two of veg, then flip to flower.. This would be 9 plants that would probably end up around 20" tall, (just a guestimation for this comparison). Now take the same light, veg time, number of plants and nutrients only do a vertical grow.. So 9 plants surrounding the 400w with only two weeks veg (could go a week longer since the light isn't taking up vertical space now)... To me regardless if I use the rest of the vertical space, the vertical grow would out perform the horizontal grow simply because of the light distribution amongst each plant.. Is that a valid assumption?


Not necessarily. Since the radius of a vertical grow is fairly limited, the square footage is mostly dictated by plant height. If your plants are really short (2' or less), it might be a better idea to grow horizontally. The 2 equations we are working with here are A=2&#960;rh (vertical) and A=LW (horizontal). 

Since the width of your room is only 4', you're basically working with an interior radius of about 1'. Assuming a 2' tall plant, A=2(&#960(1)(2) = 4&#960; = approximately 12.5 sq. ft. which is pretty small. 

Now, consider a rectangular area that's 4' long by 4' wide. That's 16 sq. ft. 

So, you either have to expand your radius and/or height, or the horizontal grow is going to give you more available sq. footage. 



rickymac21 said:


> After all this has been said though I'm starting to think about a slightly different method just because it seems easier for what I'm use to.. I might just upgrade to a 1000w and do straight S.O.G with about a week veg (just for extra root growth)... I could do a little half stadium deal where only two sides of the box have tiers instead of tiers on all sides like a true stadium... I would do a true stadium, but since the room I'm growing in has that slanted ceiling, my max width of the room can only be 4'. but the length can be anywhere from 4'-27' (definitely wouldn't do 27',just making a point)
> 
> Anyhow, the dimensions of the half stadium would be 4' deep by 6-8' wide by 4' tall.. The 6-8' would be where the tiers climb up, if that makes sense. . . . I'm just looking to get heavy yields and apparently the 400w isn't gonna cut it.


You're right in that a 400w bulb is not going to cut it. I'm always a proponent of using a higher wattage bulb. I've seen people get decent yields per watt with a 400w bulb, but it's all popcorn buds and they're not all that dense. Even a 600w bulb gives you a better product, but if you have sufficient space I would always go with a 1000w. You might be able to make a 1000w work in your room, but you will definitely need to use a cool tube since 1000w bulbs generate a lot more heat than a 400w.


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## Canon (Sep 20, 2013)

2! Wide screened vertical SCROG. Perpetual one in,, one out every 5/6 weeks. Each screen should reach near 1/2 around light, tight & close. Really wouldn't be that big,, but productive with topping, LSTing and such. Try 40 inch tall screens and go from there.


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