# It's A Fuct World



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

Greetings and hallucinations. Got a bit of a break from the usual grind, so I thought I'd check in. 

Have taken a bit of a stroll around the hydro forum. While there's some brilliant people doing brilliant things, a few folks have been drinking FarkingClueless by the megalitre. 

While I DO have a _little_ bit of free time at this moment, I don't have time to visit every thread and comment. I'll proffer these general observations, though:

* Laundry bleach (sodium hypochlorite, NaOCl) in hydroponics: *Just Don't Do It.* PLEASE. Use H2O2, 50% grade at 1ml/L of nute soln, applied every 3-4 days. Controls all pathogens and oxygenates roots when H2O2 breaks down. NaOCl is toxic to cannabis plants, as are its breakdown components, inclusive of NaCl (sodium chloride eg table salt).

* Molasses/sugar in hydroponics: LAST TIME- plants can't eat complex carbohydrates, but many pathogens CAN. You're growing cannabis in your hydroponic system- not anything else. 

* Chlorinated municipal tap water is fine for hydroponics. Fancy water filtration systems are completely unnecessary. Chlorine, in the amounts applied by muni water treatment plants, is completely harmless to plants and people. High TDS readings from 'hard' water are caused primarily by dissolved minerals like Ca and Mg, both of which are necessary micronutrients. Any water suitable for drinking is excellent for hydroponics. The only reason one would _ever_ have to ever use expensive RO or filtration systems is if one is sourcing water from a local bore/well, where water may contain high levels of salinity or sulfur. In 25 years of growing dope, I've never once seen tapwater from a municipal system cause problems in a hydroponic grow op. 

* Organic hydroponics: Is complete nonsense. The 'organic' buzzword is overused and largely misunderstood by the general public. 'Organic' doesn't mean 'good' or 'better.' It means that the material in question is sourced from a biological system. Organic nutrients are, in actual fact, mostly shit. Compost and manures themselves are not assimilable by plants; it's the breakdown components, N, P & K, which plants eat. There's no difference between the N, P & K obtained via organic matter breaking down and that obtained from "chemical" aka inorganic fertilisers. However, inorganic nutes allow you to precisely and CONSISTENTLY control the amount of N, P & K presented to the plants. With 'organic' nutes, you never really know what the precise amounts and ratios of N, P & K your plants will actually get. Moreover, inorganic nutes are not affected by the use of H2O2 in hydroponic nute solns. Inorganic based hydro systems are clean, tanks are clear and such systems are much easier to maintain, especially for the newbish. Now, before some holy organic evangelist upbraids me for not knowing what I'm talking about, know ye this: my veg patch out back is run on organic principles; my cannabis plant waste, lawn clips and kitchen veg cuttings are composted and incorporated into the garden soil after spending about a year breaking down in the compost bins. It works pretty well- outdoors, where I don't give a damn how many bugs & microbes are hanging about. In my indoor hydroponic grow-op, I want to have only ONE living organism: cannabis plants. 

So, wut up, dawg?


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## doniawon (Jan 10, 2011)

Your a golden god. thanks AL.


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## disposition84 (Jan 10, 2011)

Nice to have one of the bigtimers back in the hydro section, even if it is for a short stint. 

Getting kinda boring around here.


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## shnkrmn (Jan 10, 2011)

Hi Al!

I use bleach, RO and the pulsing heart of a young goat every new moon, but I'm smoothly perpetual thanks to you. 

Happy New Year!


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## doniawon (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Al.. i remember gypse bush use to run 1200 start to finish no flush. What was your preference, to flush or not to flush?? also in your opinion whats the best commercial yeilding sog variety you have seen.. shnkrmn, your chronic has been "heavy" on my mind


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## kevin (Jan 10, 2011)

welcome back al, glad to see a pro like you around here.


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## Butthead08 (Jan 10, 2011)

yo al i just moved into my house, and for the first time ever i have well water instead of city. your saying i should buy some kind of ro system? what do you think about those cheap brita things you hook on your sink? would that be sufficient?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

doniawon said:


> You're a golden god. thanks AL.


 That's what all the girls say. 



disposition84 said:


> Nice to have one of the bigtimers back in the hydro section, even if it is for a short stint.
> 
> Getting kinda boring around here.


Well, we certainly can't have BORING. I'll try to focus my housefly-level attention span here for a few days. Bear in mind that I'm still quite happily running the op described oh-so-long ago in *Get a harvest every 2 weeks *and still using the methods as contained in *A batch of clones in rockwool*, except for using only plain tapwater these days for soaking RW cubes and for watering clones. Nothing else needed. 



shnkrmn said:


> Hi Al!
> 
> I use bleach, RO and the pulsing heart of a young goat every new moon, but I'm smoothly perpetual thanks to you.
> 
> Happy New Year!


This made me larf out loud. 

And HNY to you, too. 



doniawon said:


> Hey Al.. i remember gypse bush use to run 1200 start to finish no flush. What was your preference, to flush or not to flush?? also in your opinion whats the best commercial yeilding sog variety you have seen.. shnkrmn, your chronic has been "heavy" on my mind


1100-1200 is fine, if a bit toward the strong end of the spectrum. Flushing is optional. I don't bother, all my tanks run the same mix, 1000-1100ppm @ 5.8. The best strains for SoG are predominantly indica hybrids- and there's lots of those around. 



kevin said:


> welcome back al, glad to see a pro like you around here.


Cheers, kevin.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

Butthead08 said:


> yo al i just moved into my house, and for the first time ever i have well water instead of city. your saying i should buy some kind of ro system? what do you think about those cheap brita things you hook on your sink? would that be sufficient?


Well/bore water _can_ cause problems, particularly if the salinity is high. Get your water tested. You may find some state/county extension resources for free or very cheap water quality testing. Failing that, check with a local university. Gotta know what you're starting with. Brita filters may work in some situations but they are very slow and not very useful for treating large quantities of water. My system has about 550 litres of tank volume- I can't imagine what a pain in the ass it would be to filter 550L of water for my bi-weekly tank dumps. An RO system may be useful if your water quality tests indicate high salinity. If the salinity is OK for drinking (100-200ppm), it'll be OK for plants in hydroponics.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

While I'm here, I've got to comment on 'magic sauces.' I was in my local hydro shop the other day and noticed they've expanded the range of magical rubbish by a factor of 2, at least. If you're using a good quality inorganic nutrient (I use Canna nutes), you simply will have no need for anything else beyond H2O2 and perhaps some phosphoric acid based pH Down. You'll find that good nutes already include pH buffers that will set the pH of most tapwater to 5.8-6.0 when you mix for 1000-1100ppm. However, when you top up tanks (always with plain tapwater), the pH may wander upward somewhat. Correct it _carefully_ with pH Down- and don't overshoot. Too low is as bad as too high. 

Dump your tanks every 2 weeks and mix entirely new solution. Don't try to add nute concentrates to a half-eaten tank of nutes. You'll have no way of knowing if the NPK ratios are correct- but I can guarantee you that they won't be.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

One more comment on using bore/well water; it's pretty unlikely that you'll have a chlorination system, meaning there's no pathogen inhibitor in your water. Chlorination in muni water will prevent most pathogen growth until the chlorine evaporates, which takes about 1-2 days in an open rez tank. Bore water users must pay particular attention to pathogen inhibition with H2O2. Apply 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L _freaking religiously_, from the instant you make up a new tank of sauce and every 3-4 days thereafter until you dump your solutions at the 2-week mark.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

On flushing: The only thing you really _*need *_to flush is your toilet. There's no particular need to flush or leach cannabis plants before harvesting, but you can do it if you want. The plants store about 2 weeks worth of nutes, so you can safely give plants plain water, no pH correction needed, in weeks 6-8. 

'Clearex' is completely unnecessary and falls into the dreaded 'magic sauce' category, that is, things that your local hydro shop are happy to take your dough for that won't really do anything. Nothing but time will cause plants to consume the remaining stored nutrients.


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## Inthewind (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Al,
I'm looking for a source for the 50%. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. 

I'm also wondering if you know of any of the signs of H2o2 overuse. I've been using 3ml per gal of 29% in an aeroponic PVC setup/25 gal res, with nirvana short riders/bubblelicious and have feed related wilting. My ppms are low with BC nutes around 500, RO, PH between 5.8 with drift to 6.1. The only other thing Im doing is dropping the PH.

Didn't mean to hijack but looking for an experienced view.

Thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

Inthewind said:


> Hey Al,
> I'm looking for a source for the 50%. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated.
> 
> I'm also wondering if you know of any of the signs of H2o2 overuse. I've been using 3ml per gal of 29%in an aeroponic PVC setup/25 gal res, with nirvana short riders/bubblelicious and have feed related wilting. My ppms are low with BC nuts, around 500, RO, PH between 5.8 with drift to 6.1. The only other thing Im doing is dropping the PH.
> ...


You're not hijacking at all. I'm here for a few days specifically to answer queries like this, but thanks for your politeness. 

It's really hard to overuse H2O2. It's so hard to overuse it that I can't really tell you what the symptoms would be. I've never deiberately exposed a plant to straight 50% grade H2O2, but sometime when I'm thinking of it and have some excess rooted clones which would normally go to compost, I'll try it and get back to you. 

Plants will happily tolerate 10x the dose I usually suggest (1ml/L of 50% grade). A system which has a big pathogen load can be hit with 10ml/L of the 50% grade as a once-off shock treatment, but a system which has been dosed regularly, every 3-4 days at 1ml/L from day 1 shouldn't have a big load. 

50% grade is usually available from hydro shops but failing that, check foodservice or general chemical supply houses. I persuaded my local hydro shop to buy in a pallet of 25L jugs of 50% grade from a local chemical house. I pay $AUD90 for 25L 'carboy' jugs.

If all you can get is 29%, use 1.75ml/L or 6.7ml/gallon. Make friends with the metric system. It's an awful lot easier to use than imperial figures.


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## Jhaz (Jan 10, 2011)

my city water is 520 ppm out of the tap and sat out for 2 days...i can only use 20% of nutes im suppose to because ppm gets to high...do you suggest a ro system in my case? if so i just need to add cal mag in the tanks along with my nutes? 

also have powdery mildew issues, i been using #% h202 mixed one ounce to 1 quart, i sprayed today then was going to start using serenade to keep it under control...when should i start using it? do i soak the plants or mist them? how often do u suggest doing it? plants are 2nd week of flowering


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 10, 2011)

Jhaz said:


> my city water is 520 ppm out of the tap and sat out for 2 days...i can only use 20% of nutes im suppose to because ppm gets to high...do you suggest a ro system in my case? if so i just need to add cal mag in the tanks along with my nutes?


The high ppm is being caused by Mg & Ca, both of which are essential nutes and will not contribute to nute burn, which is caused by excessive nitrogen. Subtract the tapwater TDS figure from the TDS you mix to, i.e. if you want 1000ppm and tapwater is 520, mix for 1520ppm.



> also have powdery mildew issues, i been using #% h202 mixed one ounce to 1 quart, i sprayed today then was going to start using serenade to keep it under control...when should i start using it? do i soak the plants or mist them? how often do u suggest doing it? plants are 2nd week of flowering


H2O2 is not terribly effective against powdery mildew because it would have to be reapplied frequently to kill every mould spore that landed on the plants. Get a sulfur "burner." Alarm quotes used because they do not burn sulfur, rather evaporates it with a heating element. Use a timer to run the sulfur evaporator during lights off. Start with about 10 mins, 2x per lights off, right after lights off and just before. A dehumidifier will reduce the humidity in the room. You're looking for about 60% max RH. Improving ventilation may also help if the intake air is under the 60% max RH. If the intake air is over 60%, improving ventilation won't cut it.


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## Jhaz (Jan 10, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The high ppm is being caused by Mg & Ca, both of which are essential nutes and will not contribute to nute burn, which is caused by excessive nitrogen. Subtract the tapwater TDS figure from the TDS you mix to, i.e. if you want 1000ppm and tapwater is 520, mix for 1520ppm.
> 
> 
> 
> H2O2 is not terribly effective against powdery mildew because it would have to be reapplied frequently to kill every mould spore that landed on the plants. Get a sulfur "burner." Alarm quotes used because they do not burn sulfur, rather evaporates it with a heating element. Use a timer to run the sulfur evaporator during lights off. Start with about 10 mins, 2x per lights off, right after lights off and just before. A dehumidifier will reduce the humidity in the room. You're looking for about 60% max RH. Improving ventilation may also help if the intake air is under the 60% max RH. If the intake air is over 60%, improving ventilation won't cut it.




cool man thanks...the powdery mildew was on clones when i got them...i been spraying h202 once every few days and it keeps it in check...but now its flowering im switching to the serenade before it ruins my crop

i will get a suphar burner in 2 months when i move..but rigth now im in a apt building and the grows in my bedroom...cant risk the management asking why my apt smells so shitty

i just upped my nutes to 1500 from 1200 and ill see what happens with it tomorrow..
my rh stays at50% max i have a 16inch oscilating fan in the middle of a 3x6 table and has a good air flow, i have a 440 cfm exhaust fan and a 6 inch standard fan as a intaketemps stay mid 70s during day and 68 at night


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## drgreentm (Jan 10, 2011)

whats up al nice to see you on here again. read allot of your threads and they are very helpful thank you very much. i have 2 2x4 flood tables on a perpetual 4 week harvest time and just have a ? about my nutes if you dont mind. i run flora nova grow/bloom one part mix and it is supposed to be half/half of organic and synthetic ph stable but the problem is it is very thick almost like mud and leaves my res's very dirty and hell of a time to clean. would you just recommend changing to a full synthetic mix so i could use h202 or what else could i do?? thanks again.


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## gudkarma (Jan 10, 2011)

other than the general banter you'll find in any thread(s), i've digested & applied your info to the maximus.

ton of questions, good sir. 
tons.

straight to business.

6 months into a new lab setup ...straight SOG ...on ebb tables with square pots & hydroton.

rather than four tables, my space allows me to run three tables on a three week rotation ...using strains that finish in 7 to 9 weeks.

nevertheless, there's a few fellows more than i working through your "system" or variations thereof.

too, after so much experimentation in various media, i can't see where/how 1000ppm is necessay when i get excellent results @ 800 to 850ppm max (and that's in weeks 7-9). 

on the same note, when i go from the cloner to my first tray at anything over 500ppm my plants look like total shit for days & days on end. i cant see how high nute concentrations help at this stage. comments? 

so what do you suggest (in general) as base ppm concentrations for each tray in the rotation? i see someone earlier in this thread notes a friend running 1200ppm from beginning to end, wtf?

do you clone at the same ph as your first table (weeks 1-2 , 1-3 for me) to make the transition easier?

imo, the art of this entire growing method rests on your ability to bust roots on clones. 

often, you discussed going straight from the cloner to the table. with straight tap water, i'm curious as to the type of root development your plants have/had when they hit the table. are we talking nubs or beards? 

in SOG, early root development is critical to the amount of strech you'll get (outside of genetics) from any given strain ...yes? 

regarding the above question, what do you think about extra veg time for the cuts? i'm finding 2 weeks veg time after rooting has a better overall effect on yeild than anything else i've tried. 

what about additives of any kind? 

obviously there's a fixed number of plants i can get on a tray. i've been experimenting with with a low concentration (1/4 reccomended) of a popular bloom booster to try & enhance yeild.

imo, it's not about running a booster all the time but applying it for a few days (then changing out the rez) at the right time.

thoughts here?

please dont wander off... i'm not done with you yet


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## Highhopes99 (Jan 10, 2011)

Wow, al b fuct say it ain't so.
So is the bleach thing really no good? I was set on getting a meter to monitor the chlorine in my res. I was exited about killing all my pathogens with a 5 dollar jug of bleach. My roots turned brown the other day and all my attempts with h202 did not prevent much. I was adding up to 2 ml per liter. ( flood and drain, rock wool pots, flooded once a day when loose half water weight, canna nutes 1000ppm, ph 5.8 but rising daily). Hey, by the way. So your clones are working better with just yap water. No ph? No h202? I found mine worked better the same way straight tap water. And a little powder. I thought your old technique was working like clock work?


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## Highhopes99 (Jan 10, 2011)

And also.. Good luck on keeping up with the flood of questions


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## The Waiter (Jan 10, 2011)

Hey Al no questions i can think of at the moment. I just wanted to tell you that you're the fuckin man


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

Jhaz said:


> i will get a suphar burner in 2 months when i move..but rigth now im in a apt building and the grows in my bedroom...cant risk the management asking why my apt smells so shitty


 If you can control the scent of your plants, you'll be able to control the scent of the sulfur, which goes away very quickly once the sulfur in the evaporator re-solidifies. The sulfur vapour will also leave an invisible residue on ALL grow room surfaces, which will kill mould spores anywhere they lay & reduce future re-infection events. You going in & out of the room will always bring in some new ones, but they stand much less a chance of blooming with the inhospitible sulfur vapour residue on everything. 



drgreentm said:


> i run flora nova grow/bloom one part mix and it is supposed to be half/half of organic and synthetic ph stable but the problem is it is very thick almost like mud and leaves my res's very dirty and hell of a time to clean. would you just recommend changing to a full synthetic mix so i could use h202 or what else could i do?? thanks again.


 Change to a fully inorganic nutrient. Problem solved. 



gudkarma said:


> other than the general banter you'll find in any thread(s), i've digested & applied your info to the maximus.
> 
> ton of questions, good sir.
> tons.
> ...


Sounds good. 



> nevertheless, there's a few fellows more than i working through your "system" or variations thereof.


I've seen a few of them. My 'system' as it were can be modified in a number of ways to suit the grower, particularly on scaling.



> too, after so much experimentation in various media, i can't see where/how 1000ppm is necessay when i get excellent results @ 800 to 850ppm max (and that's in weeks 7-9).


If it works well at 800, do eeeet. 



> on the same note, when i go from the cloner to my first tray at anything over 500ppm my plants look like total shit for days & days on end. i cant see how high nute concentrations help at this stage. comments?
> 
> so what do you suggest (in general) as base ppm concentrations for each tray in the rotation? i see someone earlier in this thread notes a friend running 1200ppm from beginning to end, wtf?


I run all tanks in the flowering room at 1000-1100 @ 5.8. I can't be fucked mixing differently for each tank. My new clones don't react badly at all to 1000 from the get-go.



> do you clone at the same ph as your first table (weeks 1-2 , 1-3 for me) to make the transition easier?


I've recently been soaking RW cubes for 24h in plain frech tapwater, no pH correction, no H2O2. Been watering clones with the same. 



> imo, the art of this entire growing method rests on your ability to bust roots on clones.


Too right. If you can't get clones to happen reliably, it all falls down. 


> often, you discussed going straight from the cloner to the table. with straight tap water, i'm curious as to the type of root development your plants have/had when they hit the table. are we talking nubs or beards?


If a clone is really setting root well, it'll have about 7-10 'nubs' out of the cube on the same day, as first roots. It can be planted right then. In practise, I tend to wait until I have a full batch of 24 with roots out of the cube before I plant. However, don't let a lot of roots develop outside of the cube before planting. They're not supported with media and are easy to damage or dry out. Planting earlier is better than later. 



> in SOG, early root development is critical to the amount of strech you'll get (outside of genetics) from any given strain ...yes?


Early root development is critical to a thriving plant, full stop. If a plant is thriving, it'll easily get to 36"-40" by wk4. Winnow out poor performers before they go to the flowering room. 



> regarding the above question, what do you think about extra veg time for the cuts? i'm finding 2 weeks veg time after rooting has a better overall effect on yeild than anything else i've tried.


If there's good root development on a thriving plant, vegging is not only unnecessary but problematic as it will induce excessive vertical height & branching. The ideal is a batch of uniformly short plants that have their main bud area in the highest light intensity available.



> what about additives of any kind?


I don't use anything but nutes, H2O2 and occasional pH Down. 


> obviously there's a fixed number of plants i can get on a tray. i've been experimenting with with a low concentration (1/4 recommended) of a popular bloom booster to try & enhance yield.


Be sure to reduce your nutrient ppm or eliminate std nutes altogether for the period that you're using any phosphorus-based bloom additives- which, BTW are the only ones that can possibly work. If I see another beeswax & bullshit bloom booster, I'm going to punch some marketing genius in the brain. It's be the same one who thought that 'power balance' bracelets were a good idea...

imo, it's not about running a booster all the time but applying it for a few days (then changing out the rez) at the right time.
[/QUOTE]


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Wow, al b fuct say it ain't so.


 It ain't so. Happy? 



> So is the bleach thing really no good?


 Really no good. 



> I was set on getting a meter to monitor the chlorine in my res. I was excited about killing all my pathogens with a 5 dollar jug of bleach.


 I'd like to fly to the moon with a propeller beanie. 


> My roots turned brown the other day and all my attempts with h202 did not prevent much. I was adding up to 2 ml per liter. ( flood and drain, rock wool pots, flooded once a day when loose half water weight, canna nutes 1000ppm, ph 5.8 but rising daily).


 Any slimy feeling on the bottom of the nute tanks? Applying regularly every 3-4 days? Any chance the roots could have been dried out or drowned? I had a timer fail not long back- it was adding a 6 HOUR 'ON' cycle where there should have been none. Pissed me off. It was running in the middle of the night and I wasn't aware it was happening until I had problems with a couple consecutive batches which had run through the tray with the defective timer. 



> Hey, by the way. So your clones are working better with just yap water. No ph? No h202?


 Yep, just plain water. 



> I found mine worked better the same way straight tap water. And a little powder. I thought your old technique was working like clock work?


 Yes, I still use rooting powder, but the other stuff just wasn't necessary. Works better without. 



Highhopes99 said:


> And also.. Good luck on keeping up with the flood of questions


Yeah, cheers for that. xD Every time I pop in, I DO get a deluge. Hope I can keep up. I really only have a couple of days to put into answering questinos, though- then I'm again going to be off like a prom dress.



The Waiter said:


> Hey Al no questions i can think of at the moment. I just wanted to tell you that you're the fuckin man


heh, thanks


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## jrinlv (Jan 11, 2011)

Thanks for all the great info Al,

My latest setup is definitely influenced but mostly your posts, thanks for sharing...JR


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## drgreentm (Jan 11, 2011)

thanks for the answer al i would ask what inorganic line you would recommend but pretty sure i know it would be the canna line up seeings how thats what you are using correct?? think i might give them a go i like the flora nova just to grimy.


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## Japanfreak (Jan 11, 2011)

I laughed out loud at the first post. Nice


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> thanks for the answer al i would ask what inorganic line you would recommend but pretty sure i know it would be the canna line up seeings how thats what you are using correct?? think i might give them a go i like the flora nova just to grimy.


I would recommend Canna, strangely enough.  No, they're _not_ paying me to say that.. but hey, Canna... if you're listening... there's enough room in my garden shed for a few pallets of gold bars.  

There's several high quality inorganic nutrient mfrs, though. Someone will chime in and mention their favourite. Just avoid organics. 



Japanfreak said:


> I laughed out loud at the first post. Nice


Really? I didn't even use any of my 'A' material about rusty nails driven through stems to increase potency...


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## zem (Jan 11, 2011)

holy shit Al i'm glad you're here man. i have been pulling my hair in here from the silly shit advice being given out. i use my tapwater with 35%H2O2 and chemical ferts in powder form. i never seen any 50% grade. i get pissed from the organic bullshit every day and there are few who would jump into threads telling everybody to use bleach instead of h2o2 giving it as a FACT that it's actually better, good luck trying to make things straight in here lmao


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

zem said:


> holy shit Al i'm glad you're here man. i have been pulling my hair in here from the silly shit advice being given out.


How are the LED evangelists doing? 



> i use my tapwater with 35%H2O2 and chemical ferts in powder form. i never seen any 50% grade.


35% will do fine. Low strength H2O2 has a stabiliser added (normally sodium silicate) which is not plant friendly. AFAIK, 35% doesn't require stabilliser, but much lower than that does or the shelf life is rather short (about a year).



> i get pissed from the organic bullshit every day and there are few who would jump into threads telling everybody to use bleach instead of h2o2 giving it as a FACT that it's actually better, good luck trying to make things straight in here lmao


I know, it's hard to rest when SOMEBODY ON THE INTERNET IS _WRONG_.


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## zem (Jan 11, 2011)

yes! the LED evangelists! those are my favorites! i actually analysed their psychology. imagine you have bought a light for like 800-1000$ it will be hard for you to admit that it doesn't work now wouldn't it? worse though is to try convince people to do the same stupid mistake you did lmao up until they swallow their loss and switch to hps they would have convinced a dozen to buy LED all of whom will be telling others to do the same, compounding the inefficiency and the lost efforts. sometimes i ask myself why i even bother, all i care for actually is to have a world with more free weed! haha


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 11, 2011)

....................


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## Japanfreak (Jan 11, 2011)

I would like to add one to the fucked up world of hydroponics on-line

deficiencies - You shouldn't have them 

All these people running around trying to pick the right def from that useless thing skype's guide, skype? Snype? Sniggles? What ever. get the right ppm/ec and shut up about deficiencies.


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## gudkarma (Jan 11, 2011)

al b.

i'm using & prefer a one part nutrient system (http://www.dyna-gro.com/) and have some questions here.

already mentioning i like to suppliment with low strength boosters the the end of a rez cycle i still try to keep the sauce VERY simple.

understanding where you suggest ppms & ph should be, how would you approach using a one part nute system where we have two bottles ...one for grow ...one for bloom.

* quick aside, do you know anything about H & Gs component 1? *

so we go > rooted cuts straight from tap water (my city water is 200ppm, ph 8.0) > to tray number one @ 1200-1300 ppm ish (given my starting point) ?

if using a one part nute system, where the bloom mix is low in N, also adding we want to encourage some but not too much stretch, do you reccomend the addition of micro or some of the one part grow to the rez sauce in order to boost N (for plants in the first tray)?

i'm gonna posit a few more questions & bow out...

nevertheless, and back on track, i keep backup for everything & have to dip into the stash for the oversized heater ...my room, i've discovered, night temps are hitting 15-16 celcius... where i normally keep night temps (this time of year) about 20c. 

room temps are to be 24 to 27 (ish) celcius constant. in the winter, my lights on temps are perfect whereas lower than expected night temps could be hurting my stretch.

possible?

you talk about temps alot in some of your stickie threads.

so no drop in temps for lights out, correct? 

i'm not worried about environmental controls. built my lab room inside a room & sealed style with access to air inside the room & outside the building. ultra handy over here ...just need direction with regard to room temps. 

my local climate has four seasons so i have to & can adjust my controls similarly.

a few pics...


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## devero420 (Jan 11, 2011)

Hi Al, great thread, thx for sharing your eperiences. I recently fell for the jargin and bought sweet I dont think I am going to use it though. 

How do you feel about Hygrozyme and Cal-Mag?

Thanks!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

zem said:


> yes! the LED evangelists! those are my favorites! i actually analysed their psychology. imagine you have bought a light for like 800-1000$ it will be hard for you to admit that it doesn't work now wouldn't it? worse though is to try convince people to do the same stupid mistake you did lmao up until they swallow their loss and switch to hps they would have convinced a dozen to buy LED all of whom will be telling others to do the same, compounding the inefficiency and the lost efforts. sometimes i ask myself why i even bother, all i care for actually is to have a world with more free weed! haha


 Seriously, LED evangelists are like PowerBalance band advocates. "WORKS!" they all yell, until put to the test. When proven wrong, the tune doesn't change. Fuck 'em.



hellraizer30 said:


> View attachment 1375074View attachment 1375073View attachment 1375072hey al i got some? im new to hydro so il lay it out
> 1) ebb & grow C.A.P system
> 2) three weeks in
> 3) GH nutes useing lucas formula ppms at 800 ph 5.8
> ...


I really dislike 'Lucas Formula' because it allows (nay, encourages) extreme NPK ratio imbalances. That's part of what's going on here, causing the severe nute burn appearance. The other part is overwatering. Is there only clay pellets in that pot or is there some other absorbent media in there? Never water in lights-off. Just no need for it. 

Cal-Mag is almost always unnecessary unless you're using rainwater. There's usually enough Ca & Mg in tapwater to suit plants in hydroponics. 

What's a C.A.P system?

Go back to GH instructions for the use of their product. 



Japanfreak said:


> I would like to add one to the fucked up world of hydroponics on-line
> 
> deficiencies - You shouldn't have them


Too right. Any decent quality hydroponic nutrient has everything plants need. What appears to be nute deficiencies are almost always some other fuckup.



> All these people running around trying to pick the right def from that useless thing skype's guide, skype? Snype? Sniggles? What ever. get the right ppm/ec and shut up about deficiencies.


Yup.


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## The Waiter (Jan 11, 2011)

Hey al how many clones do you think i can do sog style under a 150w hps in hempy buckets? Without sacrificing yield of course. How about under a 250w?


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 11, 2011)

im droping the night feeding, was just hard for me to understand they could go that long without. and there in RW cubes 
when these signs started i was on a basic GH feeding program and the burn apperence started my ppm was 1000
and it was sugested to try lucas, problem seemed to go away but as you see its still there im at 800ppms now.
il put up some new pics


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## Luger187 (Jan 11, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> * Chlorinated municipal tap water is fine for hydroponics. Fancy water filtration systems are completely unnecessary. Chlorine, in the amounts applied by muni water treatment plants, is completely harmless to plants and people. *]High TDS readings from 'hard' water are caused primarily by dissolved minerals like Ca and Mg, both of which are necessary micronutrients. Any water suitable for drinking is excellent for hydroponics.* The only reason one would _ever_ have to ever use expensive RO or filtration systems is if one is sourcing water from a local bore/well, where water may contain high levels of salinity or sulfur. In 25 years of growing dope, I've never once seen tapwater from a municipal system cause problems in a hydroponic grow op.


i would not trust my city to provide me with the right amount of nutrients for my plants. if u use an RO system, u KNOW u have a baseline of zero(or very close), and can add however much nutes u NEED accordingly. if i were to add nutes to my regular tap water, wouldnt it have a ton of Ca and Mg in it?

basically what im saying is regular tap water isnt that reliable. u dont know exactly how much is in it. so adding more could cause problems


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 11, 2011)

View attachment 1375701View attachment 1375700View attachment 1375699
so they do look better but theres still this issue with the tips curling up
and the edges yellowing/browning?


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## Highhopes99 (Jan 11, 2011)

Al, 
thanks for the reponse. I was wondering what one should expect there roots to look like? Are your roots bright white all along the pipeline or does the Cana nutes stain them slightly brown/red? My res is kinda redish from the part b. Also wondering if you have made any gains in production? Still about an oz per plant? Pk13/14 still in your week 5 and 6 tray? I was thinking of changing my set up 12" square pots instead of 6 " round, then toping the rooted clones in order to shoot out two colas instead of one. With double the root space wouldn't the topped plant have the same production as two singles? This would be have legal advantages and also I would only have to cut 30 or so clones biweekly instead of 60. Thanks for your time al, I know it's limited!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

The Waiter said:


> Hey al how many clones do you think i can do sog style under a 150w hps in hempy buckets? Without sacrificing yield of course. How about under a 250w?


 Rethink the hempy buckets. The hempy design leaves roots submerged in water- I'm not a fan. Flood tray based systems are not much more complex and don't have this design fault. 

A good rule of thumb for HPS is 50W/sq ft. You can do up to 4 plants per sq ft _IF_ you diligently prune off all branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant and any that are more than 1" long, in typical SoG fashion. Prune off branching at end of wk2 & 4 or more if needed. I don't think I'd mess around with a 150W HPS. You can get OK results with a 250 but a 400 is much preferred for a small grow. Bud density is dependent on light intensity and a 400 has a lot more of it. 



hellraizer30 said:


> im droping the night feeding, was just hard for me to understand they could go that long without. and there in RW cubes
> when these signs started i was on a basic GH feeding program and the burn apperence started my ppm was 1000
> and it was sugested to try lucas, problem seemed to go away but as you see its still there im at 800ppms now.
> il put up some new pics


 The plants stop transpiring water when lights are off. If you water during lights off, water in the rootzone can stagnate (lose all dissolved O2) before the plant starts to shift it again at lights-on. Burned leaves are never going to repair, in case you're not aware of that, but if roots recover, the plant may begin growing again. It's pretty close to dead now and probably won't yield well. Doff the Lucas stuff, go back to GH instructions for flowering for your next batch. 



Luger187 said:


> i would not trust my city to provide me with the right amount of nutrients for my plants. if u use an RO system, u KNOW u have a baseline of zero(or very close), and can add however much nutes u NEED accordingly. if i were to add nutes to my regular tap water, wouldnt it have a ton of Ca and Mg in it?


 What city are we talking about? Mexico City? US & CDN muni tapwater is universally of a high standard. I can't think of any exceptions. 

Ca & Mg are essential micronutes and if they weren't there, you'd have to put them in. 



> basically what im saying is regular tap water isnt that reliable. u dont know exactly how much is in it. so adding more could cause problems


 Not true at all, if we're talking about 1st world municipal water treatment systems. Conspiracy theories about water quality don't count. If you're curious about what's in your water, have it tested and know for sure. 



hellraizer30 said:


> View attachment 1375701View attachment 1375700View attachment 1375699
> so they do look better but theres still this issue with the tips curling up
> and the edges yellowing/browning?


OK, those pix look better. Any reason why you didn't post your latest pix in your last post? The tip curl and margin burn still suggests some NPK ratio problems. 



Highhopes99 said:


> Al,
> thanks for the reponse. I was wondering what one should expect there roots to look like? Are your roots bright white all along the pipeline or does the Cana nutes stain them slightly brown/red? My res is kinda redish from the part b.


Roots should be bright white. Tan or brown roots are dead. There shouldn't be enough vegetable dye in Canna to stain roots. The Canna product I use in Aus has no label beyond 'Vega' and 'Flores' but I suspect the Nth American equivalent is Substra. The Aus version has some yellow dye in the red-capped Part B, but no red dye.



> Also wondering if you have made any gains in production? Still about an oz per plant?


Thereabouts, yes. 



> Pk13/14 still in your week 5 and 6 tray?


Nope, haven't used PK in about a year or more. 



> I was thinking of changing my set up 12" square pots instead of 6 " round, then toping the rooted clones in order to shoot out two colas instead of one.


I wouldn't do that. The plant naturally produces largest & most dense colas on a single terminal. If you top the plant, it'll bush out and produce 2 smaller, less dense top colas. If you want more tops, grow more plants, up to 4/sq ft.



> With double the root space wouldn't the topped plant have the same production as two singles? This would be have legal advantages and also I would only have to cut 30 or so clones biweekly instead of 60. Thanks for your time al, I know it's limited!


If your local cultivation laws make a big distinction between 30 & 60 plants, it may be a compromise you should investigate, but if the penalties are the same in either direction, I wouldn't do it.


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## The Waiter (Jan 11, 2011)

In regards to the question about the 150w and 250w hps do you think it would be feasible to do a sog setup where i use a 96w ho t5 for clones, 150w for first 2 weeks of flower, 250w for second 2 weeks and 400w for the last 4 weeks. What i wanna do is harvest 2 plants every 2 weeks. So there will always be 2 plants under each light besides the 400w which will have 4 plants under it at all times. Would it be smarter to just do the last 6 weeks under the 400w and always have 6 plants under the 400? Im asking cause i already have a 150w and im wondering if the 250w would even be necessary to purchase, or if it would be better to just invest in a 400w


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## Mike Young (Jan 11, 2011)

Al b. I was hoping to get a little more info on feeding in the dark? Does that apply to aero as well? The system I run is all aero, and the roots don't come in contact w/standing water. I'd like to be able to cycle my pump 1/2 the time during flower???

Thanks!


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## Pross (Jan 11, 2011)

Sup Al I have a question about adding H202 to the reservoir. I'm using the Kangaroots and microbrew from Fox Farm. Wouldn't adding H202 kill everything in the reservoir? So all the Voodoo Juice and Kangaroots and like additives are not necessary to building a good root mass and plant? I don't have a ounce or milliliter of xp thats why I'm asking.


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Jan 11, 2011)

G'day Al - what part of Straya are you from?

You under water yet?


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## sparkafire (Jan 11, 2011)

Hey Brother Al!! 

Good to see you are still alive and growing. 

I thought bleach and urine were made for Hydroponics they are both liquid right? 

Good to have you back man! 

Wanna be WEED BARON 

Sparky


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

The Waiter said:


> In regards to the question about the 150w and 250w hps do you think it would be feasible to do a sog setup where i use a 96w ho t5 for clones, 150w for first 2 weeks of flower, 250w for second 2 weeks and 400w for the last 4 weeks. What i wanna do is harvest 2 plants every 2 weeks. So there will always be 2 plants under each light besides the 400w which will have 4 plants under it at all times. Would it be smarter to just do the last 6 weeks under the 400w and always have 6 plants under the 400? Im asking cause i already have a 150w and im wondering if the 250w would even be necessary to purchase, or if it would be better to just invest in a 400w


 HO fluoros are not really necessary for clones. Plain old shoplight fluoros will do fine. As regards the HPS for flowering, just go with a 400 from go to whoa. The 150HPS you already have would make a nice light for mother plants. 



Mike Young said:


> Al b. I was hoping to get a little more info on feeding in the dark? Does that apply to aero as well? The system I run is all aero, and the roots don't come in contact w/standing water. I'd like to be able to cycle my pump 1/2 the time during flower???


 The plants are not transpiring any water during lights off. In an aero system, the roots are contained in a confined space so they generally won't dry out, but you can do a couple of 1 min sprays during lights-off to be sure. If your system config allows roots to grow down into a rez, the 1-min spritzes won't be needed, but an airstone in the res will be. 



Pross said:


> Sup Al I have a question about adding H202 to the reservoir. I'm using the Kangaroots and microbrew from Fox Farm. Wouldn't adding H202 kill everything in the reservoir? So all the Voodoo Juice and Kangaroots and like additives are not necessary to building a good root mass and plant? I don't have a ounce or milliliter of xp thats why I'm asking.


Don't use organic-based nutes in hydroponics. Problem solved. 



Grumpy Old Dreamer said:


> G'day Al - what part of Straya are you from?
> 
> You under water yet?


I'm in NSW. No flooding here, but thanks for asking. If you're moved to do so, there's flood relief fund donation information here.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

sparkafire said:


> Hey Brother Al!!
> 
> Good to see you are still alive and growing.


Hay sparky, good to see you too. 



> I thought bleach and urine were made for Hydroponics they are both liquid right?


Too right, but only use bleach & urine if also using liquid nitrogen. 



> Good to have you back man!


only for a couple of days, then I'm back to the old grind. 



> Wanna be WEED BARON


Dood, you ARE a w33d b4R0n! The w33di3st! xD

cheers!

Al.b


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Jan 11, 2011)

Beautiful and sunny here in Brisbane - weird that hell is comming and it is such a nice day.

I don't know what would be worst, getting flooded without warning or knowing, waiting and watching everything go under.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

Grumpy Old Dreamer said:


> Beautiful and sunny here in Brisbane - weird that hell is coming and it is such a nice day.
> 
> I don't know what would be worst, getting flooded without warning or knowing, waiting and watching everything go under.


Getting hit with a several metre tall wall of water without warning would be a LOT worse. Ask the folks in Grantham.


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## gumball (Jan 11, 2011)

darn, cant think of a question to ask! but i am subbed to read everyone elses : hope you get to stay around a while, no matter the frequency


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## Grumpy Old Dreamer (Jan 11, 2011)

There are no folk in Grantham, not really sure that there is a Grantham anymore.

As you say ... it's a fuct world.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

gumball said:


> darn, cant think of a question to ask! but i am subbed to read everyone elses : hope you get to stay around a while, no matter the frequency


Thanks. 

However, I am reliably informed that the frequency is Kenneth. 



Grumpy Old Dreamer said:


> There are no folk in Grantham, not really sure that there is a Grantham anymore.
> 
> As you say ... it's a fuct world.


I think there will be a Grantham again. In fact, I'm really quite confident of it.


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## wannaquickee (Jan 11, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Getting hit with a several metre tall wall of water without warning would be a LOT worse. Ask the folks in Grantham.



you really dont use cannazym or rhizotonic no pk 13/14?? just the A+B? boost?

i use 

A+B, Cannazym, rhizotonic, pk 13/14..i dont use their boost..i replaced it with gh bloom 1-1-1 and botanicares sweet,calmag../shrugs seems to work well...


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

wannaquickee said:


> you really dont use cannazym or rhizotonic no pk 13/14?? just the A+B? boost?
> 
> i use
> 
> A+B, Cannazym, rhizotonic, pk 13/14..i dont use their boost..i replaced it with gh bloom 1-1-1 and botanicares sweet,calmag../shrugs seems to work well...


Yep, I use ONLY the Canna Vega & Flores A&B, H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days and phosphoric acid based pH Down if I top the tanks with plain tapwater. However, I don't usually have to top up the tanks; my 125L tanks are fairly well matched to the water consumption of the plants. This is to say that the TDS/EC of the nute solns remains constant as the water level drops over the 14 days between tank dumps. 

Enzymes are proteins. H2O2 breaks down enzymes on contact, so I have no use for Cannazym. 

Rhizotonic is hugely expensive, stinks to high heaven and I never noted any difference with or without the stuff. If you don't overwater and apply H2O2 to nute solns regularly every 3-4 days, tanks and rootzones will be free of pathogens, so no remedies are needed for root problems. 

I have had PK13-14 nute burn a lot of plants, even at the mfr's recommended dosage, so I put it aside about 12-18 mos ago and haven't used it since. I may give it a go sometime in the future as it's one of the few 'bloom booster' products that has a ghost of a chance of actually doing something, based in botanical science. 

Most Botanicare products are either organic-based (which I have no use whatsoever for) or are silly rubbish that does nothing- and 'Sweet' is on the top of my 'does nothing' _magic sauce_ list. It's a sugar solution; plants can't eat sugars and if you've ever inhaled burning sugar smoke, you'd wonder why anyone would put sugar (or worse, molasses) in a hydroponic nute soln which is feeding plants you're going to smoke. 

Cal-Mag is largely unnecessary since most tapwater has enough Ca & Mg to suit the micronutrient needs of cannabis plants. 

Around 95% of the stuff you find in a hydro shop is designed to make a profit for the shop whilst doing little or nothing for the grower. There's a lot of word-of-mouth 'advertising' for a lot of magic sauces- and not many of those words are coming from people who have a good understanding of botanical science nor have done actual side-by-side comparisons of with/without 'Brand X's' magic sauce. 

When in doubt, leave it out.


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## don2009 (Jan 11, 2011)

Hey all what do you think of aeroponics? In a similar SOG set up im trying that what you think? I like the thoght of having the roots get that extra air for 15min on 15 min off Thanks man your threads is like a bible to me.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Hey all what do you think of aeroponics? In a similar SOG set up im trying that what you think? I like the thoght of having the roots get that extra air for 15min on 15 min off


I love aeroponics- in theory. In practise, whenever you run a solution with a lot of dissolved salts/minerals through a small orifice, it's going to clog. Aeroponic systems normally require a lot of maintenance, specifically, cleaning sprayers. I have admitted since day 1 on this board that I'm a stoned slacker and I don't like to work very hard. I want to be able to ignore my op for several days at a time, if that's what mood I'm in. Flood aka Ebb & Flow systems allow me to do that if I feel like it. 



> Thanks man your threads is like a bible to me.


OMFSM! Bibles are full of violence and faerie tales! I avoid 'em, myself- but the compliment is well taken.


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## Highhopes99 (Jan 11, 2011)

Al, how long does it take to flood your tables? My 4' by 8' tables are taking about 7 min to fill 1/3 the way up the pots. And about 10 min to drain. Is this causing my root rot? Also if you could not get fytocell and had to go with a difrent media would you go back to rockwool flock? I can't seem to track down either of them locally , so I just buy the rockwool logs about 8" by 3' and cut em open and rip the rockwool up to stuff the pots with but that shits so itchy! Thx


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 11, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Al, how long does it take to flood your tables? My 4' by 8' tables are taking about 7 min to fill 1/3 the way up the pots. And about 10 min to drain. Is this causing my root rot?


It might be. I have rather high capacity pumps in my system that only take about 3 mins to flood about 1/3 of the way up the pot, about 5-6mins to drain... but that's functionally not a lot different to your situation. Are you using H2O2? Aerating your rez with an air pump & stone?



> Also if you could not get fytocell and had to go with a difrent media would you go back to rockwool flock?


I do use pots stuffed with only floc for my mother plants, since they get rather large and consume a lot of water. Floc holds more water than Fytocell- too much for flowering plants, which don't generally use as much water as ones aggressively vegging under 24/7 HPS light. 


> I can't seem to track down either of them locally , so I just buy the rockwool logs about 8" by 3' and cut em open and rip the rockwool up to stuff the pots with but that shits so itchy! Thx


I see what you mean. Use rubber gloves when breaking up the RW blocks- would probably be sensible to wear a dust mask when doing that job as well. Inhaling loose RW fibres doesn't sound like a particularly good idea. I'm rather surprised you're having trouble finding floc- it's fairly common stuff. On the other hand, it doesn't surprise me that you're unable to find Fytocell- a bit more esoteric & Australian made. You can always ask your local hydro shop to order in some bales of floc for you.


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## defcomexperiment (Jan 11, 2011)

howdy, i just had a couple questions for you. first beginning with the use of chlorine bleach agents for cleaning your hydroponic water. excluding the use of laundry bleach, i am wondering if calcium hypochlorite can be used with cannabis without a negative impact. i've done a fair amount of reading on commercial hydroponic facilitys, and procedures so i am aware that a very very large amount of commercial agro uses chlorine for keeping water clean, and cleaning fruits and vegetables... calcium hypochlorite has been reported to be beneficial to the plant as well.



> Calcium hypochlorite (CaCl2O2) -- the most common source of chlorine used for disinfection
> of produce and produce process water. Registered formulations are 65 percent or 68 percent
> active ingredient (a.i.). It is available as a granulated powder, compressed tablets, or large
> slow-release tablets. In dry storage, calcium hypochlorite is more stable than liquid sodium
> ...


source- http://ucce.ucdavis.edu/files/filelibrary/5453/4369.pdf

you may wonder why i care, but for the shelf life stability, and cost effectiveness it would be very beneficial to me personally. it is also an variable that i would be able to monitor with ease. currently i use h2o2, and am eliminating hygrozyme from my system to stick with base nutes, and a sterilization agent. i was also pondering using an intake/inline ozone unit instead as i know they are used as well...



edited to add:
my first experience with h2o2 was not good btw, i had added 2.5ml/gal of 35% food grade h2o2 purchased from a health store to see the effect it would have on a suspected bacteria issue i had. the plants were 7.5 weeks into flower, and pretty healthy otherwise. i had pumped all the water out, and added the h2o2 into the water, and pumped it back into my 25g dwc res. smoked a few bowls, passed out on the couch, came back 7 hours later and just about every single leaf was drooping and looked heavily shocked. i very literally almost threw up over this, now i just add very very small amounts of h2o2. i was wondering if you have ever heard anything like this, there was nothing irregular about my nute soup, or anything, i was @1.4ec at the time.


edited to add:
also want to thank you for the work you did in your tutorial on perpetual growing, it is the absolute basis for the perpetual system i am designing right now, although the system is different.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

defcomexperiment said:


> howdy, i just had a couple questions for you. first beginning with the use of chlorine bleach agents for cleaning your hydroponic water. excluding the use of laundry bleach, i am wondering if calcium hypochlorite can be used with cannabis without a negative impact. i've done a fair amount of reading on commercial hydroponic facilitys, and procedures so i am aware that a very very large amount of commercial agro uses chlorine for keeping water clean, and cleaning fruits and vegetables... calcium hypochlorite has been reported to be beneficial to the plant as well.
> 
> you may wonder why i care, but for the shelf life stability, and cost effectiveness it would be very beneficial to me personally. it is also an variable that i would be able to monitor with ease. currently i use h2o2, and am eliminating hygrozyme from my system to stick with base nutes, and a sterilization agent. i was also pondering using an intake/inline ozone unit instead as i know they are used as well...


If you can successfully emulate the calcium hypochlorite processes used in large scale commercial hydroponics & veg production, more power to you. I have no experience with using calcium hypochlorite, so I can't comment. Mind you, the shelf life of high strength (50%) H2O2 is measured in years. 

As regards inline ozonators, they can be very useful, both for pathogen reduction and scent control. However, even at the airflow rates of a modest cannabis grow op, producing enough O3 to do the job can be expensive and heroic. It's often most cost effective to control scent with carbon filters.



> my first experience with h2o2 was not good btw, i had added 2.5ml/gal of 35% food grade h2o2 purchased from a health store to see the effect it would have on a suspected bacteria issue i had. the plants were 7.5 weeks into flower, and pretty healthy otherwise. i had pumped all the water out, and added the h2o2 into the water, and pumped it back into my 25g dwc res. smoked a few bowls, passed out on the couch, came back 7 hours later and just about every single leaf was drooping and looked heavily shocked. i very literally almost threw up over this, now i just add very very small amounts of h2o2. i was wondering if you have ever heard anything like this, there was nothing irregular about my nute soup, or anything, i was @1.4ec at the time.


1.4EC is about 700ppm, so that's fine. 

First, I'm a bit frightened that you were able to buy 35% H2O2 at a 'health store.' This implies to me that these were a bunch of dangerous idiots that were selling it for people to drink. There's a cult of 'alternative medicine' morons out there who think that drinking H2O2 is good for you. It's *NOT*. H2O2 is highly corrosive and can cause chemical burns in a New York minute. Wise folks handle high-strength H2O2 with rubber gloves and eye protection. 

Moreover, there's no such thing as 'alternative medicine.' If it works, i.e it's safe and effective, it's called _medicine_. Anyone who peddles 'big pharma' conspiracy theories or 'miracle cure that THEY don't want you to know about' nonsense is both a fool and a liar- and the purveyors probably have a financial interest in making you very sick. Colloidal silver and "MMS" aka 'Miracle Mineral Solution' are other assloads of dangerous cult crap that are making the rounds on the internet at the moment... but that's another story. 

Now, on to what may have happened in your case. I suspect that the H2O2 you got had a stabiliser like sodium silicate (aka sodium metasilicate, Na2SiO3) in it. 35% doesn't usually have it, but considering where you got the stuff, anything's possible (which is scarier yet, considering human consumption was probably intended). Na2SiO3 is not plant friendly. Plants tolerate straight H2O2 just fine, and as I've said in an earlier post, will handle 10x the dosage I normally cite, which is 1ml/L (or 3.78ml/US gal). Know what you're buying. Ask if the H2O2 contains a stabiliser. If they don't know, you don't want it. 'Food grade' 35% H2O2 is used for sterilising foodservice equipment and doesn't usually contain stabilisers. I prefer 50% grade for economy, but high strength H2O2 doesn't really need stabiliser and as such doesn't generally have it.



> also want to thank you for the work you did in your tutorial on perpetual growing, it is the absolute basis for the perpetual system i am designing right now, although the system is different.


Thanks. Glad to know my ramblings were of use to you. The 'Get a Harvest Every 2 weeks' plan was the result of meeting my particular needs for the op. So it happens, it's also highly scaleable. The workflow is the main advantage to the plan, not the specific number of tables, lights, etc. Good luck with your new op.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

BTW, something's a bit funky with the theme RIU is using. Post text is all appearing in bold. Kinda messes with my use of bold for emphasis. Links also don't appear in a highlighting colour. I've looked in my profile for theme settings but am not finding anything that can fix these probs. 

Advice? 

Thanks.


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## drgreentm (Jan 12, 2011)

hey al thanks for the info on the nutes think i will try out the canna nutes like i said i have no bitch with the gh flora's product but the aftermath is ridiculous. me and the old lady are moving into a bigger house and im upgrading to 2 4x8 trays and prably going to run 2 1000w's over each tray perpetual 4 week harvest's and use my systems now for veg. anyway here are some pics any input is welcome on the new setup (soon to come) cant think of anymore ?'s right now but what all canna nutes do you use (dont want to buy unnecessary products) if you dont mind me asking and thanks again man very appreciated.


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## Saerimmner (Jan 12, 2011)

hiya, any advice you can give me on Fytocell would be appreciated, ive got the spiel off the manufacturers website but can find directions on how much to use or how etc.

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/398448-fytocell.html

cheers


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## Japanfreak (Jan 12, 2011)

There was a guy at PG who did pretty impressive E&D grows in pots filled with perlite for his medium which can be reused for years.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> hey al thanks for the info on the nutes think i will try out the canna nutes like i said i have no bitch with the gh flora's product but the aftermath is ridiculous. me and the old lady are moving into a bigger house and im upgrading to 2 4x8 trays and prably going to run 2 1000w's over each tray perpetual 4 week harvest's and use my systems now for veg. anyway here are some pics any input is welcome on the new setup (soon to come) cant think of anymore ?'s right now but what all canna nutes do you use (dont want to buy unnecessary products) if you dont mind me asking and thanks again man very appreciated.


Very noice work.  Neat, tidy setup, looks very easy to work with. Well done. 

One suggestion, tho. You're getting some fairly tall, stretchy plants. Are you vegging before flowering? Kinda looks like it. Downside is that your plants get too tall and the major bud mass isn't contained within the light's max intensity area. We're looking for something a bit more like this:



This is what you get when you chuck freshly rooted clones into 12/12 lighting with no veg period in between. 

4x1000 over a pair of 4x8 trays sounds great. However, I'd do the costing of your pair of 4x8s compared to 4x 4x4 trays. You may find that biiiig trays are pretty expensive compared to a couple of smaller ones that prvide the same area. 4 trays also allows you to run 4 rez tanks, should you wish to tailor the nute mix to plants in certain trays, such as in biweekly segments. Also builds in a bit of redundancy as you'll have 4 pumps. More is better in this case; limits the impact on the op in the case of one pump failing. 

The Canna products I use may be peculiar to Australia. Labelled only as 'Vega' and 'Flores,' I suspect the Nth America equivalent is the Substra line. See: http://www.canna.com.au/hydro

There's great things in your future, keep at it.


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## flamdrags420 (Jan 12, 2011)

Al I noticed you are running much lowered PPMs compared to what you used to. How did you come abouts to this change? R&D or Canna input?

I would also like to add my own experience on top of the advice of shopping around for h2o2 from chemical supply companies here in the US. Shop cautiously. All it took was one phone to a chem supply company to ask them if they had food grade in stock. Needless to say i had a very nice man from ATF 3 days later at my house because of my inquiries. It was enough for me to shut down all progress I had at the time. I've been laying low for 2 years waiting to come back up and continue again. I would advise people to recheck their security measures and such. *67 could have saved me from this hassle. It didn't even occur to me at the time, because h202 isn't illegal, but it's on a watch list none the less. Green backs and the hour trip to my nearest hydro store is all I will do from now on.

Hope you are having a good vacation AL. be blessed man.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

Saerimmner said:


> hiya, any advice you can give me on Fytocell would be appreciated, ive got the spiel off the manufacturers website but can find directions on how much to use or how etc.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/398448-fytocell.html
> 
> cheers


Fytocell is a resin foam material, similar to styrofoam, but doesn't repel water or float the way styro does, although Fytocell does float. It holds a moderate amount of water; much less than rockwool but more than clay pellets. It has a high air content and is difficult to overwater. Unfortunately, it's a little messy to use. The finer granules of the stuff will escape pot drain holes, so I pack about 1" of RW in the bottom of each pot to keep the Fytocell in. It's sold in 100L bags. If I recall correctly, it takes about 1.5-2L to stuff a 175mm dia x 175mm tall pot. 

The maker instructs you to flood the stuff, in the 100L plastic bag it is packaged in, for 24h before use. Unless you have a spare bathtub and want to slop wet Fytocell around, this is impractical and is an instruction I ignore. I pack my pots, put them in the tray and flood each pot with a length of hose and a spare pump dipped into that tray's rez tank. Then I plug the freshly rooted clones in and water them in for good measure. Automated watering via timer from then on out. 

Fytocell is good for flowering plants as they don't tend to get as large nor develop as much rootmass as do my mother plants, which may live for a few months and do get rather woody and tree-like after several passes of cuttings. I keep my mums in plain rockwool as the highly developed mums will use the high water holding capacity of plain rockwool in 24h. The flowering plants don't need as much water and as such are more prone to overwatering if grown in plain RW floc. 

Flooding pots packed the way I do takes only about 3 mins. More than that and the pots tend to float. The pots only need to be flooded to about 3". The RW in the bottom of the pot will instantly saturate & wick water into the Fytocell. Works pretty well for me.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

flamdrags420 said:


> Al I noticed you are running much lowered PPMs compared to what you used to. How did you come abouts to this change? R&D or Canna input?


R&D, which around here is also T&E... trial & error.  I wound it back until I saw N deficiency then raised the dose about 20%. 



> I would also like to add my own experience on top of the advice of shopping around for h2o2 from chemical supply companies here in the US. Shop cautiously. All it took was one phone to a chem supply company to ask them if they had food grade in stock. Needless to say i had a very nice man from ATF 3 days later at my house because of my inquiries.


Holy shit. 

Well, H2O2 _IS_ used in the manufacture of the explosive TATP... but if you read anything about TATP, you'll find that it's very nasty stuff to try to make. You're as likely to splatter yourself all over nearby walls as successfully make any. Still, YIPES.



> It was enough for me to shut down all progress I had at the time. I've been laying low for 2 years waiting to come back up and continue again. I would advise people to recheck their security measures and such. *67 could have saved me from this hassle. It didn't even occur to me at the time, because h202 isn't illegal, but it's on a watch list none the less. Green backs and the hour trip to my nearest hydro store is all I will do from now on.


Yeah, I'd have done the same thing. I didn't approach a chem co. directly, I got my local hydro shop to order in a palletload of 25L jugs of 50%, but I DID do the shopping and quoting for my beloved hydro supplier.



> Hope you are having a good vacation AL. be blessed man.


Thanks.


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## Saerimmner (Jan 12, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Fytocell is a resin foam material, similar to styrofoam, but doesn't repel water or float the way styro does, although Fytocell does float. It holds a moderate amount of water; much less than rockwool but more than clay pellets. It has a high air content and is difficult to overwater. Unfortunately, it's a little messy to use. The finer granules of the stuff will escape pot drain holes, so I pack about 1" of RW in the bottom of each pot to keep the Fytocell in. It's sold in 100L bags. If I recall correctly, it takes about 1.5-2L to stuff a 175mm dia x 175mm tall pot.
> 
> The maker instructs you to flood the stuff, in the 100L plastic bag it is packaged in, for 24h before use. Unless you have a spare bathtub and want to slop wet Fytocell around, this is impractical and is an instruction I ignore. I pack my pots, put them in the tray and flood each pot with a length of hose and a spare pump dipped into that tray's rez tank. Then I plug the freshly rooted clones in and water them in for good measure. Automated watering via timer from then on out.
> 
> ...


any idea as to what ratio i should mix it with coco?


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## cali-high (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey Al

Its been Awhile! Glad to See your Here!

Just Checking In..

Cali


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

Saerimmner said:


> any idea as to what ratio i should mix it with coco?


Why would you want to mix it with coco?



cali-high said:


> Hey Al
> 
> Its been Awhile! Glad to See your Here!
> 
> ...


Sup?


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## drgreentm (Jan 12, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Very noice work.  Neat, tidy setup, looks very easy to work with. Well done.
> 
> One suggestion, tho. You're getting some fairly tall, stretchy plants. Are you vegging before flowering? Kinda looks like it. Downside is that your plants get too tall and the major bud mass isn't contained within the light's max intensity area. We're looking for something a bit more like this:
> 
> ...


 awesome info man ya i think i might take your advice and do bi weekly harvests with 4x4 trays it would be very nice but doesnt it become a pain harvesting, manicuring etc lol im up for the challenge for sure just a thought although i think i enjoy that quite a bit. you run 1k's over each of your 4x4's correct? i am actually vegging for about 2 weeks so your saying if i dont veg at all i could get some tighter node spacing that would be great. thanks again man i really dont even know if you are a man im thinking a machine with your quick replies to all these ?'s haha.
thanks again


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## Saerimmner (Jan 12, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Why would you want to mix it with coco?
> 
> 
> well ive been told its to replace perlite in coco, he didnt have any perlite so sent me this out as a freebie to try instead


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## potroast (Jan 12, 2011)

Hey palomine, nice to see you! 

I don't have any questions for you, heehee, so I'll answer yours. Rollitup did a software upgrade a couple of weeks back, and the bugs are still flying around. Heh heh, and Rollie is still trying to recover from the holidaze.

Best wishes to you down there.


----------



## homebrewer (Jan 12, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 'Sweet' is on the top of my 'does nothing' _magic sauce_ list. It's a sugar solution; plants can't eat sugars and if you've ever inhaled burning sugar smoke, you'd wonder why anyone would put sugar (or worse, molasses) in a hydroponic nute soln which is feeding plants you're going to smoke.


 The sugars would be for the microbes if you're running them but if you're not, it still has a healthy dose of secondary macro nutrients (magnesium and sulfur) which could be desirable for people who use RO water. People use _Sweet_ for the wrong reasons and hydro stores sell it under false pretenses. There are situations where you'd want it and situations were you wouldn't, the key is knowing the difference.


----------



## DEVIOUZ0NE (Jan 12, 2011)

hey ALB sick post, can you peep a problem I had?? Same strain dro/soil.. not sure if my dro finished up early.. lacked nutes.. or burned.. any advice or pointers would be cool.. only main things I did was stop calmag @ week 7-8 of 11.. 

and I did use about 70ml of sweetner once a week per the 5gal res. didnt think that was it they loved it, but you said nono on molasses so I figured could have affected it somewhere?? 

heres links to spread out photos~ https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/328642-want-know-if-your-plants-511.html#post5072530... 

an here was some of them at harvest https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/398620-harvest-time-pics-soil-dro.html#post5143026 

an right before https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/328642-want-know-if-your-plants-529.html#post5138383... 

had some problems especially in my head because they are no where near as close as dense/trichy as the soils.. but eh first attempt at dro an it was actually an aero system so I was verrrry vague an had no mentor. but yo shoot me some criticism.!!


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## devero420 (Jan 12, 2011)

Hi Al - I posted on page 4, but it was right before a big answer so I think yo missed it, any help would be appreciated!

_Hi Al, great thread, thx for sharing your eperiences. I recently fell for the jargin and bought sweet I dont think I am going to use it though. 

How do you feel about Hygrozyme and Cal-Mag?

Thanks!_


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## frogster (Jan 12, 2011)

Devero,,, odd question,,, Al doesnt eat or drink cal-mag... Im sure your plants would not need it if you use good nutes, decent tap water (not r/o) .And change your rez. on a regular basis. ..and if you review Al's initial post he goes over this very plainly.... "*While I'm here, I've got to comment on 'magic sauces.' I was in my local hydro shop the other day and noticed they've expanded the range of magical rubbish by a factor of 2, at least. If you're using a good quality inorganic nutrient (I use Canna nutes), you simply will have no need for anything else beyond H2O2 and perhaps some phosphoric acid based pH Down. You'll find that good nutes already include pH buffers that will set the pH of most tapwater to 5.8-6.0 when you mix for 1000-1100ppm. However, when you top up tanks (always with plain tapwater), the pH may wander upward somewhat. Correct it carefully with pH Down- and don't overshoot. Too low is as bad as too high. 

Dump your tanks every 2 weeks and mix entirely new solution. Don't try to add nute concentrates to a half-eaten tank of nutes. You'll have no way of knowing if the NPK ratios are correct- but I can guarantee you that they won't be." And here he mentions cal-mag directly.. " **Cal-Mag is almost always unnecessary unless you're using rainwater. There's usually enough Ca & Mg in tapwater to suit plants in hydroponics. " and this from Al!! " **Ca & Mg are essential micronutes and if they weren't there, you'd have to put them in." goodgrief , no wonder why the guy hasnt been here in awhile ,,,, nobody wants to LEARN by reading, its a modern miracle!!! 
** so **Read . Read . read some more!
*


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> awesome info man ya i think i might take your advice and do bi weekly harvests with 4x4 trays it would be very nice but doesnt it become a pain harvesting, manicuring etc lol im up for the challenge for sure just a thought although i think i enjoy that quite a bit.


 Yes, it's a bit of work- but I can think of worse punishments than an endless stream of buds, can't you? 



> you run 1k's over each of your 4x4's correct?


 My trays are actually 900mmx900mm, a bit smaller than 4x4, but yes, I do use a pair of 1000s in cooltubes over them. 



> i am actually vegging for about 2 weeks so your saying if i dont veg at all i could get some tighter node spacing that would be great.


 Yep, cut that vegging out and you'll get much shorter node spacing. This'll suit the light pattern better. 



> thanks again man i really dont even know if you are a man im thinking a machine with your quick replies to all these ?'s haha.


 Not as quick as I'd like- I've still got to do stuff in the op, can't hang out on the computer all day... but in actual fact, I was built by Grant Imahara and my real name is Geoff Petersen. 

View attachment 1378032

heh. 



Saerimmner said:


> well ive been told its to replace perlite in coco, he didnt have any perlite so sent me this out as a freebie to try instead


 Fytocell would not make a good substitute for perlite and is not intended to be used as such. It holds a lot more water than perlite. There's no need to mix it with anything. 



potroast said:


> Hey palomine, nice to see you!
> 
> I don't have any questions for you, heehee, so I'll answer yours. Rollitup did a software upgrade a couple of weeks back, and the bugs are still flying around. Heh heh, and Rollie is still trying to recover from the holidaze.
> 
> Best wishes to you down there.


 Hay potster, good to hear from you. Thanks for the wishes, everything's normal here (i.e. FUBAR). 



homebrewer said:


> The sugars would be for the microbes if you're running them but if you're not, it still has a healthy dose of secondary macro nutrients (magnesium and sulfur) which could be desirable for people who use RO water. People use _Sweet_ for the wrong reasons and hydro stores sell it under false pretenses. There are situations where you'd want it and situations were you wouldn't, the key is knowing the difference.


 Microbes? No proper inorganic based hydro system should have any in them, especially when treating tanks with H2O2. I agree that a lot of products get misrepresented and misused, but some are just pure nonsense from the get-go- and this is one of them. 



DEVIOUZ0NE said:


> hey ALB sick post, can you peep a problem I had?? Same strain dro/soil.. not sure if my dro finished up early.. lacked nutes.. or burned.. any advice or pointers would be cool.. only main things I did was stop calmag @ week 7-8 of 11..
> 
> and I did use about 70ml of sweetner once a week per the 5gal res. didnt think that was it they loved it, but you said nono on molasses so I figured could have affected it somewhere??
> 
> ...


 Looks reasonably good, if but for a bit of nute burn. Cal-Mag isn't generally necessary unless you're using rainwater or water from an RO system, both of which will have no Ca or Mg. Poor density can be caused by a number of factors; excessively high air temp, poor root development, insufficient light to name a few. Avoid 'sweeteners.' Completely unnecessary. The nice flavour of good buds comes from good DNA and high resin content, the latter being a product of ideal grow op environmental conditions, good root development, etc. What's "dro"? Do you mean "hydroponics"? 



devero420 said:


> Hi Al - I posted on page 4, but it was right before a big answer so I think yo missed it, any help would be appreciated!
> 
> _Hi Al, great thread, thx for sharing your eperiences. I recently fell for the jargin and bought sweet I dont think I am going to use it though.
> 
> ...


Hygrozyme is an enzyme based product. Enzymes are proteins, which are organic compounds. H2O2 will break down dead organic matter including enzymes into elemental components on contact. Cal-Mag isn't generally necessary when using a good quality inorganic nutrient and regular municipal tapwater. Take the 'Sweet' back for a refund. Silly stuff, not generally useful.


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## frogster (Jan 12, 2011)

Thx Al for all of your previous post, I really dont have any questions ( I read, unlike many), you were very specific throughout the years ... the forum is a great tool with your added input... Frogster Btw.. im on my very forst grow... looking good, switched to flower today,,, excited!! woohoo


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 12, 2011)

cheers, thanks.


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## whuh (Jan 12, 2011)

....................


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## doniawon (Jan 12, 2011)

is phytocell the same as sure to gro??


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 13, 2011)

whuh said:


> Whats up Al? I have 2 questions for you.
> 
> 1- I'm starting clones in rapid rooters and growing them in an ebb & flow system. Since they don't hold as much water as rockwool can/should I flood half way up them or something or should my flood level still be right under them so they never get wet?


Rapid Rooters are compressed tree bark, an organic material. They have a tendency to fragment after being wetted a few times and bits get loose in the system. This can be hard on pumps as well as makes a general mess. I prefer not to use them. 

What media will you be putting in the pots under the Rapid Rooters? If it's clay pellets, flood to 1/2" below the bottom of the Rapid Rooter plug. 



> 2- I am trying to grow 2 mothers out big enough to take 50 clones once every 2 months so 25 from each mother. Will I be able to accomplish that with *THIS* light? Also how long do you think it'd take from seed before I can take 25 from each?


25 cuttings from a single plant is a huge ask. It'll require highly developed mums that have been cut back several times, forcing growth division, to produce the number of stems you'll need for cuttings. Moreover, mums raised under fluoros won't grow with the same vigor as those raised under HPS> You'll end up with thin stems for your cuttings. Please refer to *A batch of clones in rockwool * regarding the importance of thick stems for cuttings; 8-10mm is ideal. The way I get thick stems- and a lot of them- is to keep 10 mums, under a 400HPS, to support 30 cuttings every 2 weeks. 

I think you're shooting low with your lighting. I don't think fluoros will give you the number and quality of clones you need to be successful. At minimum, I'd suggest a 250W HPS or MH to run your mums, and that's pushing it. I think you'll do a lot better with about 15 mums and a 400W HPS.



doniawon said:


> is phytocell the same as sure to gro??


I don't know what 'sure to grow' is and can't find anything by that name on the web.


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## Highhopes99 (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey al, just want to say thanks for all your info thus far. Your old threads inspired me to coppy cat your set up to the best of my abilitys. I find it hard to belive I can actually ask you questions after all these months of study on your posts with you absent. I never thought I'd have this opportunity! So now that that is said before you leave, how am I going to kill my root rot? Maybe my res needs to be covered? I am going to put my air stone back in and start using h2o2 again. I am off the bleach that fatmans thread had me beliving would cure it. My h2o2 is only 29% ,so around 1.72 or round up to 1.8 ml per liter every 3/4 days My brand of h202 is nutrlife brand. So do you think that it too will have a stabilizer in it? (Canada seems to have tight rules on h202) Do you cover up your pots from light? I have to cut some black/white to cover the rockwool otherwise the algae grows on the top layer of rockwool. Thank again al.


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## drgreentm (Jan 13, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yes, it's a bit of work- but I can think of worse punishments than an endless stream of buds, can't you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


alright al im cutting out the vegging and i went through you harvest 2 weeks thread again and im going to set up the new op with the 4x4 trays, im sold on it, 16 oz's every 2 weeks is just to hard to pass on. now im using hydro rock in my pots but its getting expensive for the fact that basically the lower half of the rocks i dont even save because i would be pulling roots out for weeks (call me lazy if you like lol). in your thread you are using floc (loose rockwool) and just fill around your rooted cubes right. do you ever have a problem with that nasty green algae on the tops or do you cover them or something. thanks again.


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## Saerimmner (Jan 13, 2011)

doniawon said:


> is phytocell the same as sure to gro??












*&#8226; Optimum air/water ratio throughout the growing medium
&#8226; Encourages development of many finely branched roots &#8211; improving uptake of water and nutrients
&#8226; Ensures excellent oxygen content throughout the root zone
&#8226; Good capillary action ensures water is available throughout the slab or bag
&#8226; Easy water management &#8211; almost impossible to over-wet
&#8226; Easy to re-wet
&#8226; Biodegradable and compostable - easier to dispose of
&#8226; Makes fertigation management very easy*
*Air / Water Ratio
*Because of its structure Fytocell provides a near perfect air / water ratio at all times, encouraging the development of many finely branched roots - enabling better uptake of water and nutrients. The result is stronger, healthier plants and improved yields.
*
Oxygen
*Oxygen is as vital to healthy root development as water and nutrients. The open cell structure of Fytocell ensures good oxygen content throughout the slab or flake bag &#8211; even when Fytocell is saturated. Before Fytocell it was easy to add water to a substrate &#8211; but far more difficult to add oxygen!
*
Good Capillary Action
*The good capillary action of Fytocell means that water is drawn up to the top of the slab or flake bag &#8211; encouraging feeder roots to develop throughout the whole substrate.
*
Easy Water Management
*Fytocell is grower-friendly. It is impossible to over-wet. Even when a slab or bag is saturated the Fytocell structure ensures there is sufficient air for healthy root growth so there is never a need to dry Fytocell out in order to oxygenate the substrate.

Should Fytocell dry out for any reason, re-wetting is simple and trouble-free.
*
Biodegradable and Compostable
*Fytocell is an aminoplast. It is harmless to the environment and is biodegradable and compostable &#8211; making disposal easier and helping to meet the &#8220;green&#8221; requirements of many major buying organisations.
*
Perfect for Salads
*Fytocell is the perfect substrate for tomato, cucumber and pepper crops grown under glass and can be supplied in either bagged slab or flake bags.


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## suTraGrow (Jan 13, 2011)

Saerimmner said:


> *&#8226; Optimum air/water ratio throughout the growing medium
> &#8226; Encourages development of many finely branched roots &#8211; improving uptake of water and nutrients
> &#8226; Ensures excellent oxygen content throughout the root zone
> &#8226; Good capillary action ensures water is available throughout the slab or bag
> ...


Now where can i find some  been looking in socal for 2 years now.


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## MediMary (Jan 13, 2011)

Hey al, always great to see you, I have been growing in dwc/rdwc, im not sure if you have done much of this, also not quite sure of what diffrences are specific to unqiue styles of growing. But I respect your opinion greatly.



I am about to run the UnderCurrent system, on another tree growing site there have been a lot of failures recently with the system(lots of 2 lb plants as well), I have not see anyone using h202 in these systems. The owner/creator of the system recently addressed the problems with so many peoples crops failing, and I was hoping to get your opinion on it, and if you think this is more of a dwc thing, First off he also recommended canna aqua vega,flores as base nutrient.

*One of the inherent weaknesses in a "sterile" set up is the absence on life. It is this absence that can subject the plant roots to invasion by what equates to be the most resiliant and biocide resistant strains of pathogens.
A clean, mineral based nutrient run with homeopathic dosages of select beneficials is the most likely way to avoid DWC sudden death syndrome. 
Sterility leaves a vacancy for disease organisms to fill....intro of bennies promotes the colonization of a plant symbiotic microbe which will out compete the pathogens....or at very least compete with them for territory in the root zone. 
Bottom line.

***Root crown inoc with products like Great White and ZHO (Botanicare) which have myco properties which need constant root contact

***Aqueous inoc with bacillus Subtillus like Companion, Aquashield which can colonize in solution.

The rule of thumb in the UC with bennies is less is more, inoc without adding excessive biosolids. Its these biosolids that creat biofilms which cause anerobic layers which can lead to pathogen habitat.

Most relavent thing to consider.

Biocides will ultimately mutate the current pathogens that do exist into super strains of fusarium, phytophera, pythium, verticillium....whatever they might be. Very much like what has happened in hospitals with Staphylococcus infections becoming increasingly drug resistent.

Natural competition from indiginous beneficial microbes will keep these root diseases in check, keeping them from specializing into specimens that are evolved to resist antibiotic suppresion. 

Moral of the story......sterility is a pretty slippery slope.*



Also Have you ever had any problems with brown algae, or any experience with it?










I have tried in the past to kill it with 50% h202 when running dwc buckets, but with no luck, do I need a larger dose that the 10ml per l?

Thanks for stopping in, have missed reading your entertaining posts.

When adding h202 to this system, any recommendation on how to add it? if I put in the epicenter would I need to dilute it in water first? Do you think the dosage of h202 will change since the roots are in water, where as the rockwool might act as a bit of a buffer?


----------



## whuh (Jan 13, 2011)

..................


----------



## Japanfreak (Jan 13, 2011)

MediMary said:


> I am running the UnderCurrent system


Do the world a favor and call it r-dwc.


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## MediMary (Jan 13, 2011)

whys that, UC is the only RDWC on the market. seems pretty simple

what other system from the factory is a RDWC system? Ebb and Grow isnt, waterfarm isnt.


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## doniawon (Jan 13, 2011)

sure to grow is basically polyester pillow stuffing. same as phytocell?


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## Saerimmner (Jan 13, 2011)

doniawon said:


> sure to grow is basically polyester pillow stuffing. same as phytocell?


that looks kinda fluffy like cotton wool, fytocell is kinda like a very crumbly powdery styrofoam ill grab a handful an take a pic for ya in a while after ive had dinner,quite a strong eye irritant if it gets into the air


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## Doubleup420 (Jan 13, 2011)

Molasses/sugar from what I hear is to keep the system "cleaner" not necassarily to feed though right? Keeps salt build up down??


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## tea tree (Jan 13, 2011)

two words, Spider Mites. Any thoughts or stories on how to get rid of or deal with them. I got them and man are they a pain. It looks like a 100 dollar fluoromite spray mite have worked finally. But I seriously doubt that. They survived dips in various oils even!


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## doniawon (Jan 13, 2011)

Saerimmner said:


> that looks kinda fluffy like cotton wool, fytocell is kinda like a very crumbly powdery styrofoam ill grab a handful an take a pic for ya in a while after ive had dinner,quite a strong eye irritant if it gets into the air


cool thank you .


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 13, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Hey al, just want to say thanks for all your info thus far. Your old threads inspired me to coppy cat your set up to the best of my abilitys. I find it hard to belive I can actually ask you questions after all these months of study on your posts with you absent. I never thought I'd have this opportunity!


 Be careful. I don't think I'm quite the deity you make me out to be. I'm neither a chemist nor a botanist. However, I do have a good general science background and a highly developed bullshit detection protocol and can run a grow op. 



> So now that that is said before you leave, how am I going to kill my root rot? Maybe my res needs to be covered?


 Don't cover the rez, you'll create a moisture trap that will encourage pathogens that require high humidity and air to thrive, such as pythium & algae. 



> I am going to put my air stone back in and start using h2o2 again.


 That ought to fix it. Do a once-off 10x dose of H2O2 to try to get on top of the pathogen load in the system. 



> I am off the bleach that fatmans thread had me beliving would cure it.


 If you use enough sodium hypochlorite to control the pathogens, it'll probably be enough to kill the plants. 



> My h2o2 is only 29% ,so around 1.72 or round up to 1.8 ml per liter every 3/4 days


 Yep.



> My brand of h202 is nutrlife brand. So do you think that it too will have a stabilizer in it? (Canada seems to have tight rules on h202)


 Query the mfr. They'll probably tell you what's in it. 



> Do you cover up your pots from light? I have to cut some black/white to cover the rockwool otherwise the algae grows on the top layer of rockwool. Thank again al.


 No, I don't bother. I don't get much algae. A _little_ algae isn't generally a problem. After all, it's a plant and indicates that growing conditions for plants must be OK in your media. However, a big thick layer of green slime is nasty and may provide food for an infestation of bugs. Keep your media tops dry; may have to pack pots fuller and perhaps not flood quite as high. If you do use some means of shielding the media tops from light, don't use anything that seals tightly. You do want air circ across the media tops.



drgreentm said:


> alright al im cutting out the vegging and i went through you harvest 2 weeks thread again and im going to set up the new op with the 4x4 trays, im sold on it, 16 oz's every 2 weeks is just to hard to pass on. now im using hydro rock in my pots but its getting expensive for the fact that basically the lower half of the rocks i dont even save because i would be pulling roots out for weeks (call me lazy if you like lol). in your thread you are using floc (loose rockwool) and just fill around your rooted cubes right.


 Yep, cutting out the vegging will give you much shorter internodes. Don't forget to trim off all the branching on the lower 1/3 of the plants. Any branch more than about 1" long gets the snip. This will encourage large, dense bud formation on the terminal (top) colas.

Clay pellets etc. are a pain in the ass. They're heavy, expensive and hard to dispose of. Cleaning them for re-use is a messy, wet job and there's no guarantee that you'll be able to sterilise them enough to prevent transmission of root diseases from crop to crop. Using fresh, sterile disposable media is a much better way to go. 



suTraGrow said:


> Now where can i find some  been looking in socal for 2 years now.


 Hit ye Google. Your answer is there somewhere. Also, you can always ask your local hydro shop to order some in for you. 

I've also just found the data on 'Sure To Grow.' It may be a reasonable facsimile of Fytocell, however, it's made of polystyrene, which isn't biodegradable. Fytocell is. You can dig waste Fytocell into your gardens and it will disappear completely in about a year. I don't dig my waste Fytocell into my gardens only because I simply don't have enough garden space to support that method of disposal. Whether you care or not is up to you. 



MediMary said:


> Hey al, always great to see you, I have been growing in dwc/rdwc, im not sure if you have done much of this, also not quite sure of what diffrences are specific to unqiue styles of growing. But I respect your opinion greatly.


 Thanks. 



> I am about to run the UnderCurrent system, on another tree growing site there have been a lot of failures recently with the system(lots of 2 lb plants as well), I have not see anyone using h202 in these systems.


 I can see why there would be a lot of failures. The UnderCurrent system would not lend itself to easy cleaning. It's also not SoG friendly. SoG involves growing a large number of small plants. UnderCurrent would work better in situations where you, for legal reasons, must restrict the numbers of plants you grow. Plants would have to be vegged and then cut back a couple of times before flowering. This would have the effect of giving you a larger number of small, fluffy buds. SoG gives you a smaller number of highly dense buds. There's no growing method which can beat SoG for sheer yield per sq ft of lighted floorspace and for best bud density. SoG wins every time because the method puts the main bud mass of all the plants in the highest intensity area of the lighting's pattern. 



> The owner/creator of the system recently addressed the problems with so many peoples crops failing, and I was hoping to get your opinion on it, and if you think this is more of a dwc thing, First off he also recommended canna aqua vega,flores as base nutrient.


 UC is kinda like DWC without the benefit of having an air stone in each grow container. No wonder people are having problems.



> *One of the inherent weaknesses in a "sterile" set up is the absence on life. It is this absence that can subject the plant roots to invasion by what equates to be the most resiliant and biocide resistant strains of pathogens.
> A clean, mineral based nutrient run with homeopathic dosages of select beneficials is the most likely way to avoid DWC sudden death syndrome.
> Sterility leaves a vacancy for disease organisms to fill....intro of bennies promotes the colonization of a plant symbiotic microbe which will out compete the pathogens....or at very least compete with them for territory in the root zone.
> Bottom line.
> ...


 Oh, jesus fucking christ on an ugly motorcycle... Woowoo city. It took 5 mins for my eyes to recover from rolling back into my head after reading this. Anyone who mentions the word 'homeopathic' without using it in a totally ironic or derogatory sense is a full-tilt _kook _and can be safely ignored. This joker is using a bunch of sciencey sounding terms to say more or less nothing. 

A system based in inorganic nutrients can be sterilised with H2O2. No microbe can develop a resistance to H2O2 because it'll be dead on contact with a sufficient dose. Dead microbes don't reproduce. 


> Also Have you ever had any problems with brown algae, or any experience with it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Algae is a plant and will have similar H2O2 resistance characters to larger plants, such as cannabis. To reduce algae problems, clean the system thoroughly and block light to any surface or material which is unavoidably kept wet or is wetted frequently. H2O2 will have some effect on algal spores, but once algae has established, you'll have to physically remove it.



> Thanks for stopping in, have missed reading your entertaining posts.


 Thanks. 



> When adding h202 to this system, any recommendation on how to add it? if I put in the epicenter would I need to dilute it in water first? Do you think the dosage of h202 will change since the roots are in water, where as the rockwool might act as a bit of a buffer?


 First and foremost, I wouldn't use the UC system. It looks like a recipe for disaster, not unlike hempy buckets. It won't lend itself well to SoG and the per sq ft yields and bud density won't be as good. 



whuh said:


> Thanks man, So if I used a 250w/400w mh with 5-10 mothers, what size pots would you recommend I use? I only have 3x3 for all my mothers AND clones.


 Sheesh, you're not asking for much, are you? 

My mother area is about 2'x6' for 10 mums. I have a separate clone box which is about 20"d x 30"w x 36"h. 

If you're going to have enough room to flower 60 plants, maybe you should look to devote some of that space to mums & clones



> Also what if I grew them out with my 600w mh then stuck them under the floros, would that work or?


 No. The mums will need a consistent, regular source of high intensity light. Mums will not give you the quality of stems you will want for cuttings without some sort of HID lighting. 



Japanfreak said:


> Do the world a favor and call it r-dwc.


 How about we just call it a bad idea and leave it at that?



doniawon said:


> sure to grow is basically polyester pillow stuffing. same as phytocell?


 No, Fytocell is not polyester pillow stuffing. It's a resin-based foam material.



Doubleup420 said:


> Molasses/sugar from what I hear is to keep the system "cleaner" not necassarily to feed though right? Keeps salt build up down??


Man, that's about the wrongest thing I've ever heard said about molasses. Sugars won't clean anything and definitely won't remove nutrient salts. The only place you should use molasses is in oatmeal cookies. Keep molasses and other sugars a safe distance away from cannabis plants!



tea tree said:


> two words, Spider Mites. Any thoughts or stories on how to get rid of or deal with them. I got them and man are they a pain. It looks like a 100 dollar fluoromite spray mite have worked finally. But I seriously doubt that. They survived dips in various oils even!


One word: abamectrin (sometimes spelled avamectrin). There is no substitute. Kills spider mites every single time. However, if you ever get a spider mite infestation, the grow op has to be cleaned out totally and vacuumed THOROUGHLY or they'll be back. They're clever little bastards and will hide in the tiniest nooks and crannies. Plants that are heavily infested with spider mite should be put in plastic rubbish bags and disposed of. The plants won't yield well and are not worth saving. If you see just a few (under 50) on one leaf in your op, you MAY be able to save the grow. MAY.


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## drgreentm (Jan 13, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, cutting out the vegging will give you much shorter internodes. Don't forget to trim off all the branching on the lower 1/3 of the plants. Any branch more than about 1" long gets the snip. This will encourage large, dense bud formation on the terminal (top) colas.
> 
> Clay pellets etc. are a pain in the ass. They're heavy, expensive and hard to dispose of. Cleaning them for re-use is a messy, wet job and there's no guarantee that you'll be able to sterilise them enough to prevent transmission of root diseases from crop to crop. Using fresh, sterile disposable media is a much better way to go.


ok well my other batch in flower is at 14 days now so i went in last night and started trimming off the lower branches and they are actually looking quite nice. didnt want to do to much on one pass so figured i will do another in a week i will take some pics so you can tell me if im heading in the right direction. im always leery to hack full branches lol but they look great today.


Al B. Fuct said:


> I can see why there would be a lot of failures. The UnderCurrent system would not lend itself to easy cleaning. It's also not SoG friendly. SoG involves growing a large number of small plants. UnderCurrent would work better in situations where you, for legal reasons, must restrict the numbers of plants you grow. Plants would have to be vegged and then cut back a couple of times before flowering. This would have the effect of giving you a larger number of small, fluffy buds. SoG gives you a smaller number of highly dense buds. There's no growing method which can beat SoG for sheer yield per sq ft of lighted floorspace and for best bud density. SoG wins every time because the method puts the main bud mass of all the plants in the highest intensity area of the lighting's pattern.
> 
> UC is kinda like DWC without the benefit of having an air stone in each grow container. No wonder people are having problems.


very well said


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 13, 2011)

hey al got a bit of a problem with foam and my res smell, just running 
GH, superthrive, greatwhite, calmag, nitrogen suplament. temps are 70 in the water and my ph keeps going up, was stable for a week now all is fd up. i did post a thread but i need help cant wait


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## drgreentm (Jan 13, 2011)

here is some pics man good for a start ya think??


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## gumball (Jan 13, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> here is some pics man good for a start ya think??


you think the outside ones could be rotated in every few days? they look great, but you can see the sloping outer plants.


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## don2009 (Jan 13, 2011)

Yo Al Whats up with the rusty nail nailed into the stem to increase potency. Im ready for that shit. You still working with the sweet tooth? Im want to use this strain as your SOG method what you think? Check out the site let me know what you think about the gear Im really excited about this strain. http://www.sanniesshop.com/killing-fields-fem-en.html


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## drgreentm (Jan 13, 2011)

gumball said:


> you think the outside ones could be rotated in every few days? they look great, but you can see the sloping outer plants.


 actually those 4 outside plants are my og's that get insanely tall so i topped them. dont be fooled by there stunty look they are very deceiving and will spring up quite quickly!! going to actually stop using this strain on the new op when the time comes.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 13, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> ok well my other batch in flower is at 14 days now so i went in last night and started trimming off the lower branches and they are actually looking quite nice. didnt want to do to much on one pass so figured i will do another in a week i will take some pics so you can tell me if im heading in the right direction. im always leery to hack full branches lol but they look great today.


 Yep, I usually do 2 or 3 passes of branch pruning, at the ends of wks 2 & 4, but I keep a sharp eye on 'em and snip any branching that looks like it's going to get long. Branches produce small, leafy buds that are a pain in the ass to manicure, yield very little and take away from the yield/density of the tops. 



hellraizer30 said:


> hey al got a bit of a problem with foam and my res smell, just running
> GH, superthrive, greatwhite, calmag, nitrogen suplament. temps are 70 in the water and my ph keeps going up, was stable for a week now all is fd up. i did post a thread but i need help cant wait


 A rising pH is a pretty good indicator that there's a high pathogen (pythium, fusarium) load in the system. Ditch the 'great white' (whatever that is), Cal-Mag and nitrogen supplement. You don't say what you're doing for pathogen control, so I'll assume you're not doing anything. You need H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L every 3-4 days in the tanks, but begin with a once-off shock treatment at 10ml/L, following up every 3-4 days at 1ml/l. That'll get rid of the foam & funky smell. 



drgreentm said:


> here is some pics man good for a start ya think??


Everything looks pretty healthy, but you do have an awful lot of branching. A lot of branching not only will reduce the density of the top colas but restricts airflow around the plants. 

Since you didn't start out by chucking your just-rooted clones straight into the flowering area, the branching is understandable. Follow the SoG pruning method in your subsequent batches, but you could remove a bit more of the lower branches in this crop. 



don2009 said:


> Yo Al Whats up with the rusty nail nailed into the stem to increase potency. Im ready for that shit.


I'll bet you are. 



> You still working with the sweet tooth? Im want to use this strain as your SOG method what you think? Check out the site let me know what you think about the gear Im really excited about this strain. http://www.sanniesshop.com/killing-fields-fem-en.html


Yep, I'm still using Sweet Tooth #4- in fact, from the same batch of beans sprouted in 2002. Anyone who tells you that you can't continually replace mums with cuttings from them is talking shit. You can keep replacing mums with cuttings from them approximately forever. 

I don't think I'd choose Killing Fields for a SoG op as the breeder says that it's a sativa dominant hybrid. Sativas tend to get taller and don't yield the weight that indica dominant hybrids do. I don't think that Spice of Life are doing Sweet Tooth #4 anymore, but last I heard, they had an indica dom hybrid called Blockhead which might be a better way to go.


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 13, 2011)

ok your right about the h202 but i can only find 29% whats the dose per gallon? 
il ditch the other stuff. im wondering though what could of cause this I would
like to understand it, one thing i noticed was all my nutes are inorganic and 
the nitrogen is a organic product  might that be the weak link? either way 
im not going to use it.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 14, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> ok your right about the h202 but i can only find 29% whats the dose per gallon?


Whip out Mr Calculator! The rate is 1ml/L for 50%. 50/29=1.724, so 1.724ml/L. 1.8ml/L is close enough for rock'n'roll. A US gallon is 3.78L. So, 3.78x1.8ml=6.804ml/gallon, 7ml/gal is close enough. 



> il ditch the other stuff. im wondering though what could of cause this I would
> like to understand it, one thing i noticed was all my nutes are inorganic and
> the nitrogen is a organic product  might that be the weak link? either way
> im not going to use it.


Technically, nitrogen itself is an inorganic element. However, the source of this nitrogen additive is probably some manure of some kind- manure is organic, being that it comes from a biological process. 

Good quality inorganic hydroponic nutes have everything your plants need. There's no reason to add anything else. In most cases where you see what looks like a nutrient deficiency, the actual cause is pH out of range. The magic number for pH is 5.8. More than about .1 up or down will lock out certain nutrients for cannabis.


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 14, 2011)

thanks al your info very helpfuf


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 14, 2011)

no wucking furries, mate.


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## Tiger Woods (Jan 14, 2011)

Al great to see you back around, much respect for all the valuable knowledge!

Are your feelings still the same towards electric(digital) ballast? As in its still not worth the ridiculous amont of dough.

When every I see a question about are digi's better I always give them your quote. The one where you did a test in your local shop and found that they put out the same lums as a good ol standard magnetic ballast. Even though lumatak says their ballast produce 30% more blah blah blah bs bs exc......

They've even made types now that can go from 400/600 just with a flip of a switch just like a hps/mh switchable. Wouldn't it be safe to say that even if you did have it running on the 400 wouldn't it still be using just as much energy as it would if it were on 600watts?

Thanks in advance


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## shnkrmn (Jan 14, 2011)

I don't know about efficiency or lumen output. Don't really care. But digital ballasts are damn near silent and don't radiate immense amounts of heat. For many, those are rather important factors.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 14, 2011)

Tiger Woods said:


> Al great to see you back around, much respect for all the valuable knowledge!
> 
> Are your feelings still the same towards electric(digital) ballast? As in its still not worth the ridiculous amont of dough.
> 
> ...


I've been away from commenting on this sort of thing for long enough that I thought it would bear fruit to go looking around to see what I've missed. Strangely enough, nothing's changed in my absence.

As regards the Lumatek 400/600 ballast, yes, you can run either wattage HPS lamps off one but you will have to have BOTH a 400HPS lamp to run the ballast at 400W and a 600W HPS lamp to run it at 600W. You can _not_ crank up a 400W HPS bottle to 600W. 

Due to the nature of operation of HPS lamps, it's the characters of the lamp itself in operation which sets the conductivity hence the power rating of the lamp. If you connect a 400W lamp to a 600W ballast, the ballast will apply a 1.5x higher voltage to the lamp tube than it is designed for- and the result will be about 30s of operation (if you're lucky) before the lamp tube catastrophically fails. The quartz tube within the borosilicate glass envelope will crack, pressure will be lost and the lamp will stop emitting light. If you're lucky, the quartz tube won't explode with quite enough force to shatter the envelope, but if you're not lucky, you'll end up with bits of glass, quartz and mercury/sodium amalgam all over the place.

Having said that, I suppose it's going to be tremendously convenient for some very few users to be able to switch between 400 & 600W, but they'll still require 2 lamp tubes.

Lumatek say that some models of their ballasts are dimmable; you can dim a lamp to 50% of normal rating- but.. why... the... fuck... would... you... want... to...?! 

The '30% greater lumens' is still nonsense. The luminous output of an HPS tube is a function of how much power (in watts) is dissipated across the tube. You can increase the wattage dissipated in the tube if you increase the supply voltage. However, this will cause the thermal dissipation within the tube to exceed the design's limitations and will reduce the life of the tube. So, how do Lumatek substantiate their '30% more lumens' claim? They can't. If you connect a sample 600W HPS bottle to a Lumatek ballast and measure light output with a lux meter, you're going to get the very same luminous output as you do with a standard magnetic ballast. 

Now... if Lumatek shift the goalposts & claim '30% more lumens/tube lifespan,' the waters become murkier. HPS lamps naturally lose luminous output with ageing. Electronic ballasts start the tube a bit more gradually, which consumes the Hg/Na amalgam more slowly, meaning the tube will strike more times over its lifespan, potentially giving more lumen/hours of useful operation. This probably is useful if you're an operator of municipal street lighting, where you don't really care if you're getting 100% of rated luminous output or 80%. You might get another year of operation with a ballast that 'soft-starts' the tube. Mind, horticultural HPS tube makers recommend tube replacement every 12 months- because horticultural users DO care about the degradation of luminous output with tube ageing. Electronic ballasts are probably a very good thing for streetlighting operators- that is, if they can justify the 2-3x cost of an electronic ballast over a standard magnetic type against savings in reduced tube replacement frequency and power cost savings.

Electronic ballasts don't have iron-cored inductors. Iron-cored inductors have inherent eddy current losses which generate heat in their laminations, so they're less efficient. A standard magnetic 600W ballast will draw about 695W in operation, after tube warmup. If Lumatek's figs are to be believed, their 600W ballast will draw 615W. The 80W is significant, but significant enough to justify the 2-3x higher purchase price of their product? My local hydro shop sells 600W magnetics for $120, 600W Lumateks for $360, a difference of +$240. How long would it take to recover the extra $240 cost of the electronic ballast? At my local (very high) rate of 19c/kWh an 80W draw costs $0.0152/hr (1.5 cents/hr), it'll take 16,000 hours for me to recover the additional $240 spent on the electronic ballast in power savings. A lamp used in a 12/12 flowering application runs about 4000hrs/yr, so the payback time is about 4 years. I have a friend in Tennessee who is paying about 5c/kWh for electricity. In that person's case, the payback time is roughly _16 years_. Woohoo, let's hear it for power cost reduction!! *applause*

Poor quality magnetic ballasts don't have securely bolted inductor laminations. Over time, they'll become noisy- if they're not already noisy when new. Good quality ballasts are silent from day 1 and remain so for many years. My 1000W ballasts are now about 12 yrs old and are still silent. Anyone who whinges about noisy magnetic ballasts apparently has never owned a good quality magnetic ballast. 

As regards heat dissipation from magnetic ballasts- yes, there's a significant amount of heat generated by eddy current losses in the iron inductor core. This can be a problem for some users. So, you mount the ballast outside the grow room airspace... problem solved. However, in some cold winter weather localities, having a little heat from a ballast dissipated into the grow room airmass is a very helpful thing, particularly in winter. 

I've been an electronics techie for more than 30 years. I have YET to find a semiconductor junction which is as durable as a coil of copper wire wound on an iron core. The useful lifespan of magnetic ballasts is measured in DECADES. If you buy a good quality magnetic ballast, it's reasonable to expect that it may be the only ballast you ever buy. Lumatek warranty their ballasts fully for 3 years. After 3 years, there's an additional 2 year pro-rata warranty, where you will get partial credit of the purchase price in case of failure. Any questions?

So, are electronic ballasts worth the dough? Same luminous output, despite mfr claims. Lower power consumption, but many years to recover the much higher purchase price compared to magnetic ballasts. Yes, Lumatek ballasts have a 3 year full value replacement warranty, but what happens when one fails? You'll have to return it for repair or replacement, but how long will your grow room be dark in the process? As cheap as magnetic ballasts are, it's economically practical to keep a spare ballast on hand, meaning zero downtime. 

In the net analysis, magnetics are simply more practical.


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 14, 2011)

and there it is the main reason i dont own a ditgital, that and rfi signal not for me, plus i got buddys with them and there always returning those darn things. way to lay it out AL


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## TruenoAE86coupe (Jan 14, 2011)

Just one quick question before you go, I picked up some 29% hydrogen peroxide, strongest i could find locally, will running this help to prevent disease even if i am fighting water temps a little bit? Just before lights off my water hits 74 degrees, obviously above the 68 recommended and the 72 everyone seems to say to keep it below, but i cannot afford to renovate to fix this problem until the end of this run.


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## defcomexperiment (Jan 14, 2011)

so i decided to give my h2o2 another whirl tonight @.5ml/gal in a small veg dwc i have. the plants are well established, and im waiting to see if i notice any drooping. i called the chemical company and verified there is no stabilizers in their 35% food grade h2o2, so all should be well.


edited to add:
quite a few other posts ive read say to add it at 2-5 drops per gallon, which would be 1/4ml per gal of 35%. i dont understand why there would be such a large discrepancy between the figures. either way, at a rate of .5ml to a gallon i should be more than fine considering you said i could at 5 or 10 times the amount and it wouldnt hurt my plants... im still shit scared they are gonna get shocked...


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 14, 2011)

defcomexperiment said:


> so i decided to give my h2o2 another whirl tonight @.5ml/gal in a small veg dwc i have. the plants are well established, and im waiting to see if i notice any drooping. i called the chemical company and verified there is no stabilizers in their 35% food grade h2o2, so all should be well.
> 
> 
> edited to add:
> quite a few other posts ive read say to add it at 2-5 drops per gallon, which would be 1/4ml per gal of 35%. i dont understand why there would be such a large discrepancy between the figures. either way, at a rate of .5ml to a gallon i should be more than fine considering you said i could at 5 or 10 times the amount and it wouldnt hurt my plants... im still shit scared they are gonna get shocked...


hey i added yesterday 7ml per gal and had no signs of anything plants are doing great, pior to that I didnt use it and overnite i got foam and brown slime so 
im a believer in it.


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## defcomexperiment (Jan 14, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey i added yesterday 7ml per gal and had no signs of anything plants are doing great, pior to that I didnt use it and overnite i got foam and brown slime so
> im a believer in it.


yea i dunno, its lookin like my leaves are slightly drooping.

also are you in dwc? and what percentage are you using? 7ml seems like a lot.


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## Kaptain Kron (Jan 14, 2011)

i have to reply to all and zem on this one im sorry guys you dont have to jump on the LED boat but i can tell you from my own side by side experience with the panel and 400w hps i own that the LED panel is most definately better. I can also tell you there was no loss in yeild for me but i think that is because the LED is actually more equivalent to a 500w hps. I would say with LED generally there is a SMALL however negligable loss in yeild as the gains you get on your power and heating/cooling bills more than pay for the slight loss. Lighthouse Blackstar 240w 6 band panel. All i will say about LED's is i KNOW the panel i just stated works better than a 400hps. As for other manufacturers no idea. Oh and BTW i paid 60 bucks more for the LED panel than i did for my 400 hps. I spent well under 300 bucks for a brand new one. Most LED companies are full of it though and i will completely agree with you on that one. It is next to impossible to go out and buy and LED and get a good one on the first try unless you really know or have seen it work before.

that being said i am also using just base nutrients it happens to be left over sensi a and b i had from a soil grow, will be switching out to somehting cheaper soon not sure what yet, thanks for takin the time to talk with us al.

I agree most LED's dont work and are WAY over priced but lets be honest things have changed in the last couple years there ARE good LED manufacturers out there. I only like 2 though out of ALL the ones i've read about. One company Kessil NASA is using, their shit really works the only problem is such a small footprint and 200 bucks a light... So a light mover becomes a neccesity if you want to run kessil's. That is why i am running the blackstar panel i previously mentioned. That and due to power constraints (not paying for power where im at, my roomates are and they dont know whats going on) so i could not run my 400 or purchase the 600 i wanted to and HAD to go LED. Fortunately it has been a invaluable foray in to new lighting tech and i will NEVER go back to HID again now that i have found a CHEAP alternative that performs as well as my 400w hps does. I highly reccomend trying one out if someone is in the market for a 4 or 600 hps. you can get a 240w panel which falls somewhere in between a 4 and 600hps for the same price so why not give it a shot. I've been converted and i still own my 400hps it just sits in my closet though until i have the power available to use it again. I just wont be buying anymore HID's than i have already and once they die no more ever unless i have to go very large scale and even then i doubt it. Im on a small to mid scale right now. I've been made a believer in somthing i used to rip on people for. Things have changed take a look around maybe experiment if you got some extra money.

But above all DONT FIX IT IF IT AINT BROKE!!



zem said:


> yes! the LED evangelists! those are my favorites! i actually analysed their psychology. imagine you have bought a light for like 800-1000$ it will be hard for you to admit that it doesn't work now wouldn't it? worse though is to try convince people to do the same stupid mistake you did lmao up until they swallow their loss and switch to hps they would have convinced a dozen to buy LED all of whom will be telling others to do the same, compounding the inefficiency and the lost efforts. sometimes i ask myself why i even bother, all i care for actually is to have a world with more free weed! haha


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 14, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> and there it is the main reason i dont own a ditgital, that and rfi signal not for me, plus i got buddys with them and there always returning those darn things. way to lay it out AL


 Thanks. 



TruenoAE86coupe said:


> Just one quick question before you go, I picked up some 29% hydrogen peroxide, strongest i could find locally, will running this help to prevent disease even if i am fighting water temps a little bit? Just before lights off my water hits 74 degrees, obviously above the 68 recommended and the 72 everyone seems to say to keep it below, but i cannot afford to renovate to fix this problem until the end of this run.


 Yes, it'll both reduce pathogens and oxygenate the roots. Presuming you're doing a DWC? Water loses dissolved oxygen as it gets warmer, but H2O2 and an airstone will help.



defcomexperiment said:


> so i decided to give my h2o2 another whirl tonight @.5ml/gal in a small veg dwc i have. the plants are well established, and im waiting to see if i notice any drooping. i called the chemical company and verified there is no stabilizers in their 35% food grade h2o2, so all should be well.
> 
> edited to add:
> quite a few other posts ive read say to add it at 2-5 drops per gallon, which would be 1/4ml per gal of 35%. i dont understand why there would be such a large discrepancy between the figures. either way, at a rate of .5ml to a gallon i should be more than fine considering you said i could at 5 or 10 times the amount and it wouldnt hurt my plants... im still shit scared they are gonna get shocked...


.5ml/gal is way too little. For 29% H2O2, it should be about 7ml/gal, reapplied every 3-4 days.



Kaptain Kron said:


> i have to reply to all and zem on this one im sorry guys you dont have to jump on the LED boat but i can tell you from my own side by side experience with the panel and 400w hps i own that the LED panel is most definately better.


With all due respect, you're mistaken. If you have all grow room conditions correct, a 400W HPS lighting an 8 sq ft area will kick any LED system's ass to Mars- and that's a lot of kicking.


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## defcomexperiment (Jan 14, 2011)

kk, well, i am going to pump in 5ml/gal tomorrow into my flower res and see what happens.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 14, 2011)

defcomexperiment said:


> kk, well, i am going to pump in 5ml/gal tomorrow into my flower res and see what happens.


5ml/L is not 7ml/L. The dosage I'm suggesting is really quite low- and you're independently electing to take it lower. You're on your own.


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## defcomexperiment (Jan 14, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 5ml/L is not 7ml/L. The dosage I'm suggesting is really quite low- and you're independently electing to take it lower. You're on your own.


kk, if you say its quite low, i will do 7ml, but im using 35% so i lowered it slightly. i will do it tonight, im not saying that h2o2 is harmful to my plants, all im saying is that my last grow i introduced it @2.5ml/g, and within 10 hours my plants were seriously droopy, droopy to the point that some branches fell over and all leaves looked like they had wilt... i had colas laying on my scrog screen, and it looked so bad i didnt take any more pictures of my grow til i was hanging buds up. then i read some people that use 2-5 drops of 35% h2o2 for maintenance in their dwc res. being that i cant find any literature done by universities or such with implicit instructions of using h2o2 it is difficult for me to pour the shit in based off of peoples recommendation. my res [email protected] constantly, i probably have very little to worry about as my res's are very well oxygenated, but im looking for solutions in the near future when i begin growing 10kw+. here is the journal entry as this went down my last grow:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/348678-600w-dwc-medical-grow-first-22.html#post4833218

so yea, tonight im going to think hard on when im going to test 7ml/g. i may wait as im about 9 days from harvest and could test it at the very ass end of the harvest. the whole purpose of this isnt for fixing an issue now, as i have no biolfilm/fungus/algae/bacteria issue right now. the whole thing is me trying to figure out whats going to be viable for the future and what can be scaled up cost effectively.

edited to add:
also, i did contact the chemical company, and as far as they were concerned their product is safe for use on plants, though on the label it just has directions for foliar application. the FDA does allow for stabilizers in food grade h2o2 in the USA, so there could still be something harmful in there. i may need to just buy some different stuff. all im doing is reporting what happened to me, and why i am so concerned.


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 14, 2011)

Hello DR. AL B Fuct, i just want to say thanyou for all your post. i stay up late every night reading your post. Just to let you know, i'm trying to do thing the way you would. My system is a 1000w light system ,blockbuster hood, 40gal rez, 4x4 tent,16pots ,with hydroton, two fans one on the light the other on the filther. just two question, would you use a co2 tank with this setup, and question two, would it be better to grow as a sog or scrog with DNA chocolope? with the 4x4 table i can get around 49 seven inch pots on the table what should i do to get a large amount.


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## defcomexperiment (Jan 14, 2011)

added 6ml/g of h2o2 to my flower soup and about to pump it back in.


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## onegreenthumb (Jan 14, 2011)

WOW, that was all very useful information Al, thanks

I am new and have been absorbing all the information I could here for the last few months and have found it quite conflicting, there is alot of great information but one has to read it all and try to decipher the good from the bullshit, you made it a little easier.

It is nice to hear input from a real world grow vet!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 14, 2011)

defcomexperiment said:


> kk, if you say its quite low, i will do 7ml, but im using 35% so i lowered it slightly. i will do it tonight, im not saying that h2o2 is harmful to my plants, all im saying is that my last grow i introduced it @2.5ml/g, and within 10 hours my plants were seriously droopy, droopy to the point that some branches fell over and all leaves looked like they had wilt... i had colas laying on my scrog screen, and it looked so bad i didnt take any more pictures of my grow til i was hanging buds up. then i read some people that use 2-5 drops of 35% h2o2 for maintenance in their dwc res.


 How many ml in a "drop"?

Applying H2O2 directly to a rez where roots are in the solution could have been part of the problem, but this much I'll tell ya- 2.5ml/gal of 35% is about half the efficacious rate for sterilising solutions and would have barely had an effect on microbes, let alone cannabis plants. 



> being that i cant find any literature done by universities or such with implicit instructions of using h2o2 it is difficult for me to pour the shit in based off of peoples recommendation. my res [email protected] constantly, i probably have very little to worry about as my res's are very well oxygenated, but im looking for solutions in the near future when i begin growing 10kw+.


 I take my information mainly from reliable sources such as university studies as well. If you look around on the web a bit, you will find such data. In a quick search, I found this slide presentation on Greenhouse & Nursery Sanitation from Colorado State U: http://ghex.colostate.edu/presentations/Greenhouse_and_Nursery_Sanitation.pdf (see page 55):



> Hydrogen peroxide
> &#8211; H2O2
> &#8226; Strong oxidizer
> &#8211; Sold from 3-90%
> ...


 For 35% H2O2, 2.7ml in 1 gallon H2O = 250ppm; 5.4ml/gal = 500ppm. 




jojodancer10 said:


> Hello DR. AL B Fuct, i just want to say thank you for all your posts. i stay up late every night reading your posts. Just to let you know, i'm trying to do thing the way you would. My system is a 1000w light system ,blockbuster hood, 40gal rez, 4x4 tent,16pots ,with hydroton, two fans one on the light the other on the filter. just two question, would you use a co2 tank with this setup, and question two, would it be better to grow as a sog or scrog with DNA chocolope? with the 4x4 table i can get around 49 seven inch pots on the table what should i do to get a large amount.


 I don't know what a "blockbuster hood" is. A 1000 will do very well over a 4'x4' tray- I'd use a 1000 over as much as 20 sq ft. You'll get very good results with the SoG method. I'm not a fan of SCRoG- it's a method intended for a small number of plants and there's some veg time involved. SoG doesn't require any vegging time, no farting around with tying stems down to screens or nets and has much better air circ than SCRoG, with the associated lower potential for mould. Just keep after pruning off the branching in SoG and it'll work well. 

Using CO2 is very expensive and requires a grow room specifically built for it, but can be worth your while if you're willing to part with the cash and do the work. To make the best use of CO2, automated control systems which sense the CO2 concentration in the room atmosphere and apply more gas as required are preferred. Application systems which also control fans and aircon are better yet. Mind you, you can easily chuck thousands of dollars into such controllers and you'll have the ongoing expense of CO2 tank rental and hassle of lugging the heavy cylinders around. Combustion based CO2 gens can be used if you have a very large op, but the heat they generate makes them impractical for very small ops like yours.

I don't think I'd recommend Chocolope for SoG. It's a sativa dominant hybrid which has a tendency to get tall. Look around for an indica dominant hybrid instead. 



defcomexperiment said:


> added 6ml/g of h2o2 to my flower soup and about to pump it back in.


Should be fine. Let me know how you go. 



onegreenthumb said:


> WOW, that was all very useful information Al, thanks
> 
> I am new and have been absorbing all the information I could here for the last few months and have found it quite conflicting, there is alot of great information but one has to read it all and try to decipher the good from the bullshit, you made it a little easier.
> 
> It is nice to hear input from a real world grow vet!


Thanks much for your confidence and compliments.


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## Highhopes99 (Jan 15, 2011)

[/QUOTE]Lumatek say that some models of their ballasts are dimmable; you can dim a lamp to 50% of normal rating- but.. why... the... fuck... would... you... want... to...?!


> That's why I read your threads al, that quote made me giggle like a child... Nice


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## defcomexperiment (Jan 15, 2011)

20 drops/ml is a standard although there are a few discrepancies between standards. either way, 2-5 drops isnt even close to an effective dose according to your info. i've already applied 6ml/g and everything seems to be ok. the last run could have been a fluke, or some weird reaction, but my plants were looking just about dead.



edited to add:
just so you know, i never make any adjustments to the water without pumping it out first. all adjustments are made and stable before the water hits the roots.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

defcomexperiment said:


> 20 drops/ml is a standard although there are a few discrepancies between standards. either way, 2-5 drops isnt even close to an effective dose according to your info. i've already applied 6ml/g and everything seems to be ok. the last run could have been a fluke, or some weird reaction, but my plants were looking just about dead.


Something happened that likely wasn't related to the H2O2. Just can't imagine such a low dose of H2O2 doing anything harmful.



> edited to add:
> just so you know, i never make any adjustments to the water without pumping it out first. all adjustments are made and stable before the water hits the roots.


Good deal.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

> > Lumatek say that some models of their ballasts are dimmable; you can dim a lamp to 50% of normal rating- but.. why... the... fuck... would... you... want... to...?!
> 
> 
> That's why I read your threads al, that quote made me giggle like a child... Nice


What? The wisecrack I made about full-tilt homeopathic kooks a couple of pages back which was much snarkier.


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## nothingtodeclare (Jan 15, 2011)

al b fuct you seem to know your stuff i use the same system as under current systems just a diy version now my question is that when i use just plain water with sensi grow 2 part i have no problems white fuzzy roots etc perfect no problems at all but the second i add any zymes additives i seem to combat problems ie jellysnotty roots etc do i have bad nutes or something an i know it is this as i clean my system trim roots with jelly/snot on an start with just water an sensi 2 part an new white roots appear every where i keep this going for a few weeks no problems add some zymes an bang 2 days later slimey shit covering airstones an jelly blobs on ends of roots so is it bad nutes or is the pathogen just in my system or water supply waiting for its food to arrive i am in the uk water is quite hard around 400ppm i can keep my system water temp at a constant 60-64 degrees i run a 500gph water pump with a 50 litre a min air pump so the water is really areated just wanted some ideas really if nutes were bad or they react different with my water supply in this system


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

nothingtodeclare said:


> al b fuct you seem to know your stuff i use the same system as under current systems just a diy version now my question is that when i use just plain water with sensi grow 2 part i have no problems white fuzzy roots etc perfect no problems at all but the second i add any zymes additives i seem to combat problems ie jellysnotty roots etc do i have bad nutes or something


Don't use the 'zymes' additive. 

The 'jelly snot' is a mass of pathogens- bacteria, fungi, etc. Dump the tank, clean the tank & airstone. Mix a new tank of nutes with 50% grade H2O2 at 10ml/L. In 3-4 days, dose the tank with 1ml/L 50% grade H2O2 and keep doing so every 3-4 days. Fixed.


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 15, 2011)

DR. Al, i have 3 questions and anyone can answer this ,1. what do you think about beneficial bacteria ? will it help the plants more or not really needed? 2. do i need a cover for my rez or leave it open/ uncovered.? 3. what is H2o2 and what its for? alge in the rez? always wanting to learn more thankyou


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## TruenoAE86coupe (Jan 15, 2011)

Jojo, all of this has been covered in this very thread...i will do my best to give you Al's answers.... 1. He does not use them, anything alive in your system besides your plants is going to cause problems and pathogens. 2. I am pretty sure he said that he does not cover the res, this one i am not positive on but it is in this thread somewhere. 3. The H202 is hydrogen peroxide (not the stuff you get at walmart, that is only 3% concentration and has stabilizers in it that will kill the plants) he uses 50%, trying to find that in the US could possibly get a knock on the door from the ATF. I went to the local hydro shop and found 29% very easy. The hydrogen peroxide is to kill all pathogens and anything living in the res that is not plant material, algea is plant material so the hydrogen peroxide does not affect it.


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## Tiger Woods (Jan 15, 2011)

Wow really appreciate that! I know which quote Ill be refering to from now on,lol. Good to know your feelings are the same. Just wasn't sure because like you said you haven't brought them up in ages(August 2008 to be precise). Its good you really broke it all the way down like that for everyone. If they read that and still are convinced the digitals are the best way to go, then fuck em there's just no convinceing them,lol.

I know its not necessary to cut the leaves in half when cloneing but many still do (including me). The reasoning makes since . Do you think it helps clones root quicker or can this just be one less step to not have to fuck with. Only reason I do is because I noticed faster root development when doing so. Could have been a number of factors though water/air(aero cloner) temps fluctuating exc.....

Thanks


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 15, 2011)

*Hay thanks Trueno* man, i'm trying to put in a new panel fuse box set up my grow and go to the hydro store plus get these questions answered so the saleman at the hydro store dont rip me off. so i am a some what newbie but learning. I guess the name of the game is to learn as much as one can and save some money too. we all have to start somewhere thankyou lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

jojodancer10 said:


> DR. Al, i have 3 questions and anyone can answer this ,1. what do you think about beneficial bacteria ?


 Not much, really.



> will it help the plants more or not really needed?


 Totally unnecessary.



> 2. do i need a cover for my rez or leave it open/ uncovered.?


 Leave it uncovered.



> 3. what is H2o2 and what its for? alge in the rez? always wanting to learn more thankyou


 H2O2 is commonly used in hydroponics as a nute solution steriliser and root oxygenator. In conjunction with inorganic nutes, it's a surefire way to keep rootmasses free of disease and promote root development. 



Tiger Woods said:


> I know its not necessary to cut the leaves in half when cloneing but many still do (including me). The reasoning makes since . Do you think it helps clones root quicker or can this just be one less step to not have to fuck with. Only reason I do is because I noticed faster root development when doing so. Could have been a number of factors though water/air(aero cloner) temps fluctuating exc.....
> 
> Thanks


Cutting leaves in half isn't necessary. Leaves are the solar panels for the plant. Once a cutting sets root, it's beneficial to have as much leaf surface in place as possible to promote rapid growth. However, a stem cut isn't a rootmass and there's only so much water a cutting can pick up via the stem cut. I tend to leave 2-3 full fan leaves on each cutting.


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## Dropastone (Jan 15, 2011)

What's up Al? I got a Question for ya. My well water is 750 PPM in the summer and 950 PPM in the winter. I use a water distiller to make water for my plants. Would you also suggest that I use my well water for hydro or soil as well?


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 15, 2011)

thanks al enjoy your say and thankyou for everything 503 and were out


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## Tiger Woods (Jan 15, 2011)

Understood.

Thanks again


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

Dropastone said:


> What's up Al? I got a Question for ya. My well water is 750 PPM in the summer and 950 PPM in the winter. I use a water distiller to make water for my plants. Would you also suggest that I use my well water for hydro or soil as well?


Were I you, I'd get a water analysis from a county extension agency or a nearby university. TDS readings as high as yours could be caused by high salinity. Distillation/RO is a good option if you're stuck with well/bore water with excessive salinity (>500ppm).


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## whuh (Jan 15, 2011)

Al, say I wanted to veg 4 plants for 2 months then put them into an ebb & flow system with netpots and hydroton. Do you have any idea/suggestions on how I can veg them? I planned to use a soiless mix but I just realized when I flower there would be no way to put them into the ebb & flow.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

whuh said:


> Al, say I wanted to veg 4 plants for 2 months then put them into an ebb & flow system with netpots and hydroton. Do you have any idea/suggestions on how I can veg them? I planned to use a soiless mix but I just realized when I flower there would be no way to put them into the ebb & flow.


You're going to wind up with HUGE plants if you veg for 8 weeks then flower. They'll wind up so tall that most of the bud mass will be well & truly out of the highest intensity pattern of HID lighting. Much of what you'll get will be small, fluffy buds with a lot of leaf. Do you have some particular reason for only growing 4 plants?


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## JohnnyGreenfingers (Jan 15, 2011)

Al-
I've been a lurker of your threads for years. I've never posted on this or any other MJ forum, but seeing you back here again motivated me to get off my a$$ and make an account to say thanks. It would take pages to tell you how far I've been with the knowledge you gave me. 

As it turned out, there actually was some truth to overthrowing by overgrowing, and it's legal for me to grow here now as long as I stay at 72 plants. 
I've been tweaking your SOG into a perpetual tree of green to account for the lesser numbers allowed. It won't produce as efficiently as the sog obviously, but if the police knock on my door complaining of marijuana odor, I can simply show them a card and ask that they kindly gtfo. 
I don't know what compelled you to invest the time and effort you've invested to educate pure strangers, but thank you sincerely for doing so. 

Also, the only place I've been able to find non stabilised 35% h2o2 is a chain of organic grocery stores (isn't it ironic? don'tcha think?) called Foods For Living. It was the last place I looked. Anyone having trouble finding it can find it there. I've been unable to find a reliable source of 50%.


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## whuh (Jan 15, 2011)

Yeah I was originally planning on growing 56 in a 4x4 but I only have a pair of 2ft 2 bulb ho T5's to veg with. So I cant get the 56 clones every 2 months and figured if I cant grow a bunch of small plants the next best thing is a few huge plants right? I can't figure it out so maybe you can help me out. Here's my setup - 

4x4 room (+ 6" can fan & filter) with 4x4 ebb & flow (also have 64 netpots and 100l hydroton)
600w hps (probably upgrading to a 1k)
3x3 tent (with 6" can fan)
2 - 2ft 2 bulb high output T5's

I'm trying to yield 6lb/year which is why I originally wanted to harvest once every 2 months with a 1lb yield each time. What do you thing the best way of doing this is? I AM willing to buy more equipment if needed but I cant really go over 1200w with the lights.


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## Kaptain Kron (Jan 15, 2011)

with all due respect al have you done a side by side comparison as i have i know my grow room conditions are good as i have pulled LARGE crops down with SOG off of my 400. I use a 2x3 table filled with hydroton generally pull at least an elbow to elbow and a half with my 400w and have matched that with the LED. You dont have to believe me, but no 400w is going to kick my led's ass to mars.

Im just sayin when was the last time you looked really hard at AMERICAN made LED's and the LATEST LED tech all the old chinese LED's are bullshit, bridglux blow me. Anything with CREE led's (american made) or kessil (american made with DICON fiber optics) in a small grow will beat out an hps if you compare them properly theres been many claims of 90w led ufo's being equiv to a 400w thats a crock. it takes a minimum of 200w to even be close to a 400. Im just trying to set the record straight, there is a place for LED's now its not right for everyone, it depends on the size of your grow honestly but if your doing it for personal or just a few people. LED's win out. Large scale it just doesnt scale up yet with the prices that people want for things. It's getting close though. 4x4 though no contest. its when you start moving up to where you would need a couple 1k hps is where i start questioning led's because they are so FUCKING expesive to cover the area you need for a couple 1ks.

I used to completely agree with you about LED's man then i got roped into buying one because of my current living situation which was changing in a couple monts and i had to solve the problem before i moved and well i did a lot of research and bought the reasonably priced panel that uses american components and is assembled in China. Im not sure how long it will last im still waiting to find that out (being as a chinese underpaid factory worker assembled it) but the performance is phenomenal because of the american LED's the companys that have panels that look identical to mine and perform identical to mine but charge 800 bucks are charging that cause they are assembled in the US and its ridiculous.

Take it with a grain of salt make your own decisions. Like i said though dont just jump in like a lot of people do because of the hype that has been given to LED's take your time do some research find one you think might work, and then get it if you can AFFORD to test it and decide if you like it better. I could afford to take the hit when i bought mine and im not sorry. But i didnt throw my 400 in the dumpster either. LED's arent for everyone but they can be VERY beneficial if they are right for your size grow and situation. I would not even be able to grow if i didnt have this LED panel right now, the amount of CFL's i was running was too much too, just like the 400. Now i am able to get my herb and still get a good pull when i shouldnt even be able to grow where im at.

Theres benefits is all im sayin





Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

JohnnyGreenfingers said:


> Al-
> I've been a lurker of your threads for years. I've never posted on this or any other MJ forum, but seeing you back here again motivated me to get off my a$$ and make an account to say thanks. It would take pages to tell you how far I've been with the knowledge you gave me.


 Wow! Thanks. 



> As it turned out, there actually was some truth to overthrowing by overgrowing, and it's legal for me to grow here now as long as I stay at 72 plants.


 Bewdy, you can do quite a lot with 72 plants. 



> I've been tweaking your SOG into a perpetual tree of green to account for the lesser numbers allowed. It won't produce as efficiently as the sog obviously, but if the police knock on my door complaining of marijuana odor, I can simply show them a card and ask that they kindly gtfo.


 Wish I could say the same. Anything over 5 plants in my locality is a 'large commercial quanitity' and could get me 20 years. 



> I don't know what compelled you to invest the time and effort you have to educate pure strangers, but thank you sincerely for doing so.


 I blame the drugs. 



> Also, the only place I've been able to find non stabilised 35% h2o2 is a chain of organic grocery stores (isn't it ironic? don'tcha think?) called Foods For Living. It was the last place I looked for obvious reasons. Anyone having trouble finding it can find it there. I've been unable to find a reliable source of 50%.


 35% will do as long as doesn't have any stabilisers added. 

I'm really alarmed about 35% H2O2 being sold in 'health food' or 'organic' markets, undoubtedly because they're encouraging people to DRINK it. I've had my rant about the crazies that encourage human consumption of the stuff, but it's worth repeating: This is _truly dangerous bullshit_. See: http://www.solvaychemicals.us/static/wma/pdf/8/6/3/9/3051-HH208.pdf



whuh said:


> Yeah I was originally planning on growing 56 in a 4x4 but I only have a pair of 2ft 2 bulb ho T5's to veg with. So I cant get the 56 clones every 2 months and figured if I cant grow a bunch of small plants the next best thing is a few huge plants right?


Not really. 

Let's start from the start. If you want to fill that 4x4 tray, you'll want a 1000. If you have a limit of 1200W (presuming a 10A ckt on 120V), you have a bit of a problem. A 1000HPS will draw about 1100-1150W from AC mains when running and a bit more on startup. A 1000 MAY trip a 10A ckt bkr on 120V. If you have a 15A ckt, your life gets a lot easier. If not, you're stuck to a 600HPS which will really only effectively light a 3x4' space. You won't be able to pack that 4x4 tray full. 

What is the rating of the ckt bkr for the grow area? Any chance you can run a good heavy duty extension lead to an outlet on another ckt?

Once you tell me what you have to work with in terms of ckt power limitations, I'll give you an idea of how to best use your gear. 



Kaptain Kron said:


> with all due respect al have you done a side by side comparison as i have i know my grow room conditions are good as i have pulled LARGE crops down with SOG off of my 400. I use a 2x3 table filled with hydroton generally pull at least an elbow to elbow and a half with my 400w and have matched that with the LED. You dont have to believe me, but no 400w is going to kick my led's ass to mars.


I don't have to believe you? Good, because I don't believe you. 

Waste as much of your time as you like- but kindly stop wasting mine.


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## whuh (Jan 15, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Not really.
> 
> Let's start from the start. If you want to fill that 4x4 tray, you'll want a 1000. If you have a limit of 1200W (presuming a 10A ckt on 120V), you have a bit of a problem. A 1000HPS will draw about 1100-1150W from AC mains when running and a bit more on startup. A 1000 MAY trip a 10A ckt bkr on 120V. If you have a 15A ckt, your life gets a lot easier. If not, you're stuck to a 600HPS which will really only effectively light a 3x4' space. You won't be able to pack that 4x4 tray full.
> 
> ...


Well I have a 20A circuit the problem is that's the one circuit I have to use for everything in my grow rooms + a small window AC in the summer (no clue of the watts or btu but I figure 500w max, and an outdoor light which is 300w but I'm going to set my light scheduled so that outdoor light and my grow light will rarely go on at the same time. I guess I could run a few things like my fans to a different socket in the room which is on another breaker but the main reason I didn't want to go over 1k in the 4x4 is because of heat. Is a 1k ALOT hotter then a 600? I have an air cooled hood and a cool tube btw.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

whuh said:


> Well I have a 20A circuit the problem is that's the one circuit I have to use for everything in my grow rooms + a small window AC in the summer (no clue of the watts or btu but I figure 500w max, and an outdoor light which is 300w but I'm going to set my light scheduled so that outdoor light and my grow light will rarely go on at the same time. I guess I could run a few things like my fans to a different socket in the room which is on another breaker but the main reason I didn't want to go over 1k in the 4x4 is because of heat. Is a 1k A LOT hotter then a 600? I have an air cooled hood and a cool tube btw.


I think you should get a better idea of that aircon unit's current draw- best thing you can do is buy a plug-in kWh meter, something like this one. Betting you can find them more cheaply than listed, at general electronics stores. Most devices like this will measure both peak and continuous power consumption. If you can swap that 300W outdoor light for a compact fluoro, so much the better, but I realise that mightn't be possible if it's a big floodlamp for lighting a large area. 

You say heat is a concern. You'll want to be able to run your grow op lighting at night when the air you have to draw in for cooling is cool as possible. I don't know what sort of a room you're planning to use for your op, but to be useful, the cooltube will need to draw air from outside the grow room airmass and dump it outside of that airmass as well. The ventilation for the op should vent to outside the op as well. If you're using a spare bedroom, dumping warm air into the attic is a good way to go. Putting ballasts in the attic is also a smart move. 

A 1000 will make appreciably more heat than a 600, but a 600 makes a significant amount of heat all by itself. You're going to have to work out how to get the heat out of the room, whether using a 600 or a 1000. If you organise a cooltube which sources & dumps air from outside the room, it's no problem using either one. 

Are you SURE that the other outlets in the room are on a separate ckt? It'd be rather unusual if it is. 

You say you have an air-cooled hood and a cooltube. These do the same job. Some air-cooled hoods source their intake air from the grow room airmass, with no facility to connect an intake air duct. Cooltubes allow you to attach flexiduct to both ends, so you can source air from outside the grow room airmass and dump it outside as well. This is a far preferable arrangement as it allows the room ventilation (intake & exhaust fans) to be thermostatically controlled. 

To make full use of your 4x4 tray, you will want a 1000 over it. 

The actual genesis of the idea for my 'every 2 weeks' system was to break up the harvesting job. Very early on in the piece, I was filling my entire op, 4 trays x 24 plants each (yep, 96 plants) all at once and harvesting the lot after 8 wks of flowering. I had a hard time coming up with 96 clones all at one time and harvesting time was a BITCH because it all had to be done at once. So, I started staggering the feed of clones into the op and was then able to harvest one of my 4 trays at a time. Much more manageable on all accounts. Didn't have to have as many clones ready all at once, either.

You will get much better yields from SoG than you will from individual large plants- AND you'll be able to break up the harvesting job as well as grow fewer mother plants and produce fewer clones per batch. You can stagger the introduction of new clones into your flowering area so that you only fill 1/4 of the capacity of the 4x4 tray at a time. This means that you'll only need 12-16 clones every 2 weeks. 

However, to grow mother plants quickly enough to get even that few clones for you every 2 weeks, you'll want an HID lamp of some flavour running the mums. A 250HPS is a good choice for up to 5 mums. A 175W MH would probably do OK. I am quite confident that fluoros won't cut it, not even T5HO fluoros. The luminous output just isn't there to produce the thick stems you'll want and recover the mums from being cut back hard every 2 weeks. Fluoros are OK over clones because they're not really being actively grown- rather, merely being convinced that it's daylight for 18h, or preferably, 24h/day to keep them in veg state until they're ready to go into flowering. 

Cannabis plants in veg mode don't flip over to flowering mode overnight just because they've been chucked under 12/12 lighting. It takes about 3-4 weeks under 12/12 for them to shift fully into flowering state. This is actually one of the secrets to why SoG works the way it does. Clones which are only 6-9" tall when they've set root will grow in a tapering veg mode under 12/12 lighting, eventually reaching their final stature at about 36-40" tall by week 4. This is ideal for artificial lighting; the major bud mass of all the (hopefully uniform) short plants forms in the maximum light intensity of the HPS light. SoG tailors plants to the limitations of artificial lighting. 

When you veg before flowering, you get a tall plant that has a lot of the bud mass down low and out on lower branches (which you prune off in SoG). The tall plants will force you to raise the light to avoid cooking the top colas. Buds that are outside of the maximum intensity zone of the pattern will be fluffy & leafy- a pain to manicure and very little yield for a lot of trimming work. Best to simply not grow the little stuff. Pruning off the branching also dramatically improves circ fan airflow around the plants, greatly reducing the possibility of mould. 

With SoG, you get a bunch of single stalks with a large top cola and nothing else. The plants require very little lighted space for each plant, maximising the use of the lighted space and thus yield per sq ft. Breaking up the workflow into 1/4 of the flowering area's capacity per batch will make your per-harvest workload much lower, though you will be harvesting more often. 

Give this a think and restructure your plans to suit your grow op's physical situation.


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## zem (Jan 15, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> with all due respect al have you done a side by side comparison as i have i know my grow room conditions are good as i have pulled LARGE crops down with SOG off of my 400. I use a 2x3 table filled with hydroton generally pull at least an elbow to elbow and a half with my 400w and have matched that with the LED. You dont have to believe me, but no 400w is going to kick my led's ass to mars.
> 
> Im just sayin when was the last time you looked really hard at AMERICAN made LED's and the LATEST LED tech all the old chinese LED's are bullshit, bridglux blow me. Anything with CREE led's (american made) or kessil (american made with DICON fiber optics) in a small grow will beat out an hps if you compare them properly


same old nonsense... if you're claiming that a multi hundred dollar light is goin to beat HPS we need proof, real proof not just clams. boy how many times have i waited for side by side grows they never get to a conclusion, grower would usually evaporate experiment halts and life goes on. bottom line, LED's are not the way forward, maybe some other tech in the future but sure not LED. and man they have been on our vcr and xmas trees for decades, not that new really.


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## whuh (Jan 15, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I think you should get a better idea of that aircon unit's current draw- best thing you can do is buy a plug-in kWh meter, something like this one. Betting you can find them more cheaply than listed, at general electronics stores. Most devices like this will measure both peak and continuous power consumption. If you can swap that 300W outdoor light for a compact fluoro, so much the better, but I realise that mightn't be possible if it's a big floodlamp for lighting a large area.


Didn't want to quote the full message and take up a whole page lol

Wow, alot of info! Thanks! Yeah my air cooled hood has duct ports on bot sides as well. I got that after I did a grow with the cool tube because the cool tube (with outside & inside reflectors) wasn't giving me the coverage I wanted. I figure I could use that for the mother room if I get HID lighting. I plan to vent out my window and intake from a different window.

As far as that one plug being on it's own breaker it's because it used to have a huge air conditioner on it + the outside light was a big metal halide so the electrician put it on it's own.

So your saying I can take 14 cuttings put them into flowering then 2 weeks later take 14 more and so on until I have 56 plants, and I can put them right next to the others? I keep my light about 18" from the canopy so say I can keep my plants total height at 18" when done stretching. Won't the new 14 clones be too far away from the light since they'll be 36" away?

Thanks again for all the help! Wish I could send you part of my harvest or something!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

zem said:


> same old nonsense... if you're claiming that a multi hundred dollar light is goin to beat HPS we need proof, real proof not just clams. boy how many times have i waited for side by side grows they never get to a conclusion, grower would usually evaporate experiment halts and life goes on. bottom line, LED's are not the way forward, maybe some other tech in the future but sure not LED. and man they have been on our vcr and xmas trees for decades, not that new really.


Yeah. All that. I DO believe that high intensity LED technology will eventually come along that will make growing plants with them a functional possibility, but the limitation right now is the thermal dissipation of the LED semiconductor junction into the substrate. Serious LEDs like Luxeons have to be on a big fuckin' heatsink even now to avoid cooking the junctions and still don't develop the luminous intensity necessary to grow cannabis. Fluoros are a better bet at the moment and even the highest-output fluoros are not up to the task of flowering cannabis. 

It sorta works like this: anyone claiming that LEDs outperform HPS lighting almost certainly didn't have a room setup suiting removing the heat generated by HPS lighting. They got a crappy result from HPS because the room was running at 37-40C, reckoned that was the normal result from HPS, so they chucked the HPS & got an LED panel that makes 1/10 the light as HPS. Naturally, it did somewhat better because the plants weren't getting totally cooked, but the result was still shitty, wispy buds as you'd expect from insufficient light. 

*sigh* 

LED EVANGELISTS: Last time- don't try on the 'LEDs are better than HPS' garbage with me. I know better, mkay?



whuh said:


> Didn't want to quote the full message and take up a whole page lol
> 
> Wow, alot of info! Thanks!


Heh, sorry... I got a bit windy on that one, but I had a lot to say! If you plan a grow op correctly from the start, you won't fumble through months or years of trying to make a bad setup work correctly.



> Yeah my air cooled hood has duct ports on bot sides as well. I got that after I did a grow with the cool tube because the cool tube (with outside & inside reflectors) wasn't giving me the coverage I wanted. I figure I could use that for the mother room if I get HID lighting. I plan to vent out my window and intake from a different window.


Oh, OK. Good deal. That sounds pretty good. 



> As far as that one plug being on it's own breaker it's because it used to have a huge air conditioner on it + the outside light was a big metal halide so the electrician put it on it's own.


Makes sense. Good for your op plans, tho! Lucky you. 



> So your saying I can take 14 cuttings put them into flowering then 2 weeks later take 14 more and so on until I have 56 plants, and I can put them right next to the others?


Yup. 



> I keep my light about 18" from the canopy so say I can keep my plants total height at 18" when done stretching. Won't the new 14 clones be too far away from the light since they'll be 36" away?


Your cooltube/air cooled hood will allow you to place the lamp a lot closer to the maturing tops than without it. Cooltubes are fantastic for reducing the radiant IR. You can put the maturing tops 6-8" away from a 1000 in a cooltube. The height mismatch isn't that big of a deal; the little 'uns will catch on & catch up within a couple of weeks. 



> Thanks again for all the help! Wish I could send you part of my harvest or something!


No wucking furries. The way you can pay me back is to get proficient and help other people navigate the learning curve. I've only got so much time to put into commenting on cannabis boards and I'm probably going to have to bail out on RIU again, likely sooner than later.


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## lowerarchy (Jan 15, 2011)

Hey Al, just another grateful reader here. Would that we had more like you. 

Couple questions:

Did you get a noticeable improvement in yield from the fytocell vs rw?

Don't you get bored doing the same technique all the time? I realize there's a certain satisfaction in striving for perfection, but there's also that irresistible pull to experiment especially when you've got two potential opportunities for experiment/control in your flowering room all the time. It's obvious that you're extremely adept at what you do, so you'd probably have a good idea of what effect any changes you've made are actually having, unlike many of us who have problems doing the same thing twice in a row, let alone crop after crop for years. 

On that note, what's your limiting factor right now? co2? 

Any experiments or speculations on the table right now?


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## whuh (Jan 15, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yeah. All that. I DO believe that high intensity LED technology will eventually come along that will make growing plants with them a functional possibility, but the limitation right now is the thermal dissipation of the LED semiconductor junction into the substrate. Serious LEDs like Luxeons have to be on a big fuckin' heatsink even now to avoid cooking the junctions and still don't develop the luminous intensity necessary to grow cannabis. Fluoros are a better bet at the moment and even the highest-output fluoros are not up to the task of flowering cannabis.
> 
> It sorta works like this: anyone claiming that LEDs outperform HPS lighting almost certainly didn't have a room setup suiting removing the heat generated by HPS lighting. They got a crappy result from HPS because the room was running at 37-40C, reckoned that was the normal result from HPS, so they chucked the HPS & got an LED panel that makes 1/10 the light as HPS. Naturally, it did somewhat better because the plants weren't getting totally cooked, but the result was still shitty, wispy buds as you'd expect from insufficient light.
> 
> ...


Ok so let me make sure I have this right. Using a 1k in the 4x4 and a 250w mh or hps in the 3x3 take 14 clones, root them then flower them. Do this every 2 weeks and after 1 month I will be harvesting every 2 weeks assuming I'm growing an 8 week strain. Is this correct?

Since I'm doing ebb & flow how do I deal with different nutrient strengths for the different stages of growth? Is there a set ppm you recommend or does it depend? All I'm using is AN Sensi bloom + hygrozyme if that matters.

Also since I'm doing ebb & flow with net pots and hydroton how do you recommend getting/cleaning the roots out after I harvest the 14 plants since if I still have 43 flowering I can't just wash the whole tray out or anything and I'm assuming all the roots will be tangled.

Sorry for all the questions just trying to get all the info I can and think of everything I'm going to run into .


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

lowerarchy said:


> Hey Al, just another grateful reader here. Would that we had more like you.


Keep paying attention and we WILL have more like me- such as you. 



> Couple questions:
> 
> Did you get a noticeable improvement in yield from the fytocell vs rw?


Definitely. RW floc is highly absorbent, so you can't water often without causing root problems. It tends to hold more water than my biggest flowering plants in 175mmx175mm pots could use in 24h. Using smaller pots can be problematic later down the track- plants tend to fall over as the buds get heavier... sooo... I looked for a less absorbent medium. Fytocell was new at the time, so I gave it a go. It has its problems but one thing's certain- you can't overwater a plant in the stuff. Doesn't matter how much water a plant is using at various stages of development; I can water all plants in the op for 3 mins/day and not overwater anything. 



> Don't you get bored doing the same technique all the time?


Not at all. I grow dope to get dope, not for the entertainment of growing dope. It's actually a bit of work and I get tired of it, occasionally neglect the op. I have warned RIU that I'm a stoned slacker many, many times. A lot of what happens in my op is directly attributable to me not wanting to work very hard. One example- I use flood trays instead of aeroponics because I don't want to have to clean sprayers every goddamn day. Flood systems require somewhere between no and zero maintenance. They're no-brainer reliable for the most part unless a timer or a pump shits itself. I've just invested about $130 in an industrial quality, German digital timer which is guaranteed not to fuck up... so I'm soon going to replace the 4 independent (consumer grade) timers in my flowering room, eliminating a failure point. Automation is fine, but it has to be dead-nuts reliable. Having to look in on an automated system means it's not automated. You may as well be there to flip the switches yourself. 



> I realize there's a certain satisfaction in striving for perfection, but there's also that irresistible pull to experiment especially when you've got two potential opportunities for experiment/control in your flowering room all the time. It's obvious that you're extremely adept at what you do, so you'd probably have a good idea of what effect any changes you've made are actually having, unlike many of us who have problems doing the same thing twice in a row, let alone crop after crop for years.


Well, thanks for the compliment, but I'm using my familiarity to reduce workload more than increase yields or achieve some state-of-the-art in dope growing. I get more than enough weed out of the op even with decidedly suboptimal (yet more reliable, lower maintenance) methods. I could make it do a lot more if I worked harder at it. But I'm frankly getting a bit on in the years (think 50-something) and I can't/don't want to.



> On that note, what's your limiting factor right now? co2?


Nope. Lack of hard work put into the op. 



> Any experiments or speculations on the table right now?


Maybe a nap and a nice coffee & cone when I wake up.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 15, 2011)

whuh said:


> Ok so let me make sure I have this right. Using a 1k in the 4x4 and a 250w mh or hps in the 3x3 take 14 clones, root them then flower them. Do this every 2 weeks and after 1 month I will be harvesting every 2 weeks assuming I'm growing an 8 week strain. Is this correct?


Yeppers.



> Since I'm doing ebb & flow how do I deal with different nutrient strengths for the different stages of growth? Is there a set ppm you recommend or does it depend? All I'm using is AN Sensi bloom + hygrozyme if that matters.


Ditch the hygrozyme. Deal with pathogens using H2O2. Use 50% grade at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. Run the single tank at 1000. The younguns don't really need ramping up and the mature ones don't really need flushing. 



> Also since I'm doing ebb & flow with net pots and hydroton how do you recommend getting/cleaning the roots out after I harvest the 14 plants since if I still have 43 flowering I can't just wash the whole tray out or anything and I'm assuming all the roots will be tangled.


Netpots will air-prune the roots so they don't fill the tray. There will be no media in the tray for roots to grow into, so there ought not to be any root matting or knitting. If roots escape the netpots, clip 'em off. 



> Sorry for all the questions just trying to get all the info I can and think of everything I'm going to run into .


No problem. I'm here for a few days only, so get 'em in while you can!


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## whuh (Jan 16, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yeppers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Cool so I'll use H202 instead of the Hygrozyme. Is there any specific reason for that? Just wondering out of curiosity since I don't really know 100% what hygrozyme does. Would it be beneficial to use both together?

So your saying run netpots with hydroton in them and don't put anything at all in the tray? Thats whole lot easier! and less hydroton I'll need! lol
2 questions with that though. My pots are 6" in diameter and 4.5" tall, are those big enough? If not what size will work best? Also do I have this right - fill pot with hydroton then stick rockwool in and cover it completely with a 1-2" layer of hydroton then flood my table so the water JUST touches the bottom of the rockwool? If that's right then i will only be able to flood my table 1-2" assuming I'm using 1.5" rockwool cubes. Can you explain this to me if I'm not understanding it correctly?

Last thing I can think of right now - When you say 1000ppm... My tap water is 133 so does that mean run 1133 or 867? I assume I'd use 1133 but want to be positive.

Good thing I saw this thread, I like this plan you gave me 100% more then the other 2 I had before! Seems alot easier and the possibility for higher yields.


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## lowerarchy (Jan 16, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Automation is fine, but it has to be dead-nuts reliable. Having to look in on an automated system means it's not automated. You may as well be there to flip the switches yourself.


Automation seems hard, probably because it actually is hard. I was looking into building an arduino-controlled pH doser but when I realized how much time I'd have to spend learning the language, finding the actuators and sensors and stuff, learning how to build it, building it, testing and all that I realized I'd be better off just going into the room every now and then.




> Well, thanks for the compliment, but I'm using my familiarity to reduce workload more than increase yields or achieve some state-of-the-art in dope growing. I get more than enough weed out of the op even with decidedly suboptimal (yet more reliable, lower maintenance) methods. I could make it do a lot more if I worked harder at it. But I'm frankly getting a bit on in the years (think 50-something) and I can't/don't want to.


Good to hear. That's a good school of thought and one that I'm trying to follow myself. I don't really see the point of getting a massive yield on a gram per watt basis if it takes thousands of dollars worth of equipment, is like working two full-time jobs and takes and extra six months of setup and veg to pull off. Work with the equipment you have, learn the capabilities of your genetics and everything works out well in the long run. 

There's a trend in the hobby growing community to buy whatever the fuck comes out in hopes of making astounding personal breakthroughs in growing expertise. I was in my local hydro shop and saw a dozen magnetic ballasts on the used rack for fifty bucks, asked "what's wrong with them?" and the guy just sighed and said "they're from a customer who just learned about digital ballasts." I guess we're easy prey for salesmen because this hobby may lead to a bit of disposable income for some, and what better than to "re-invest" back into the source? 

One more question. Did you ever experiment with staggered lighting? Thread about it: 
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/376157-staggered-lighting-anyone-tried.html


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## nothingtodeclare (Jan 16, 2011)

talking about your led grows has anyone tried the bi-spectrum plasma grow lights range in various sizes 150w 200w 300w 400w 600w wondered if anyone uses these done a side by side with hps i am really liking but jus want info if a 200w say will out perform a 600w hps also one other thing that puts me off is the size they look like the lowbay lights factorys have heres a pic jus incase some of you are unknow




an here are some claims like led 
*1000W Hps : LightPros 300W Bi-Spectrum Induction Grow Light. 300W= 450W LED and 1000W HPS! BETTER THAN LED AND HPS Features*


300W induction will REPLACE 450W LED and 1000W HPS! BETTER and MORE EFFICIENT THAN LED AND HPS!!
Full light spectrum for plants emitted to help accelerate growth, budding, and flowering!!
BULB LASTS 100,000 HOURS and MUCH LOWER DEGRADATION than LED, HPS and T-5/T-8 fixtures!!
Light Efficency per watt is 3 TIMES HIGHER compared to LED!!
Light stays 75% COOLER and offers 65% ENERGY SAVINGS OVER HPS, but PRODUCES approx. EQUAL YIELDS!!
so yes to all i would like your take on this or shall i just stick with my switchable ballast 400w/600w?????


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 16, 2011)

whuh said:


> Cool so I'll use H202 instead of the Hygrozyme. Is there any specific reason for that? Just wondering out of curiosity since I don't really know 100% what hygrozyme does. Would it be beneficial to use both together?


 Hygrozyme is an enzymatic cleaner. Enzymes are proteins. Proteins are organic matter. H2O2 will break down enzymes as though they were pathogens. So, no, you can't use them together. 



> So your saying run netpots with hydroton in them and don't put anything at all in the tray? Thats whole lot easier! and less hydroton I'll need! lol


 Yup. 



> 2 questions with that though. My pots are 6" in diameter and 4.5" tall, are those big enough?


 That'll be fine. 



> Also do I have this right - fill pot with hydroton then stick rockwool in and cover it completely with a 1-2" layer of hydroton then flood my table so the water JUST touches the bottom of the rockwool? If that's right then i will only be able to flood my table 1-2" assuming I'm using 1.5" rockwool cubes. Can you explain this to me if I'm not understanding it correctly?


 No. Fill the netpots with clay pellets. When your clones in RW cubes have rooted, nest them in the pellets 1/2" above the floodline. 40mm (about 1.5") plastic wrapped RW cubes are preferred. See the link in my sig to cloning in rockwool.



> Last thing I can think of right now - When you say 1000ppm... My tap water is 133 so does that mean run 1133 or 867? I assume I'd use 1133 but want to be positive.


 The TDS reading you see in your tapwater is from dissolved Ca & Mg. Fert burn is caused mostly by an excess of N. If your tapwater is 133 and you want a nute strength of 1000ppm, aim for 1133ppm. 



lowerarchy said:


> Automation seems hard, probably because it actually is hard. I was looking into building an arduino-controlled pH doser but when I realized how much time I'd have to spend learning the language, finding the actuators and sensors and stuff, learning how to build it, building it, testing and all that I realized I'd be better off just going into the room every now and then.


Meh. Timers, for the most part, are generally reliable and don't usually lose programming- but sometimes they CAN. That's why I've invested in an industrial quality tiemr for my water pumps. 



> Good to hear. That's a good school of thought and one that I'm trying to follow myself. I don't really see the point of getting a massive yield on a gram per watt basis if it takes thousands of dollars worth of equipment, is like working two full-time jobs and takes and extra six months of setup and veg to pull off. Work with the equipment you have, learn the capabilities of your genetics and everything works out well in the long run.


Simpler is better, every time. 



> There's a trend in the hobby growing community to buy whatever the fuck comes out in hopes of making astounding personal breakthroughs in growing expertise. I was in my local hydro shop and saw a dozen magnetic ballasts on the used rack for fifty bucks, asked "what's wrong with them?" and the guy just sighed and said "they're from a customer who just learned about digital ballasts." I guess we're easy prey for salesmen because this hobby may lead to a bit of disposable income for some, and what better than to "re-invest" back into the source?


Some growers are pretty susceptible to a sales pitch. Some are smarter than that...


> One more question. Did you ever experiment with staggered lighting? Thread about it:
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/376157-staggered-lighting-anyone-tried.html


That's a silly idea that's been making the rounds for a while. The problem is that cannabis plants don't work like that. Cannabis needs a continuous, uninterrupted 12 hour dark cycle to build up flowering hormone to produce tight, dense buds. This goofy flowering idea tends to yield hermaphroditic plants and wispy buds. Ignore it. 



nothingtodeclare said:


> talking about your led grows has anyone tried the bi-spectrum plasma grow lights range in various sizes 150w 200w 300w 400w 600w wondered if anyone uses these done a side by side with hps i am really liking but jus want info if a 200w say will out perform a 600w hps also one other thing that puts me off is the size they look like the lowbay lights factorys have heres a pic jus incase some of you are unknow
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The lights you're describing are just fluorescents. The claims being made about them are pure bullshit. "INDUCTIVE!" means it's got an iron-cored ballast, like all fluoros. "PLASMA!!!!" means the plasma you find in every single fluorescent light ever made. 

This is an absolutely deceptive shyster ploy to make you think these are some sort of special light. Despite all the absurd claims and MULTIPLE CAPSLOCK FAILURES and overuse of exclamation points!!!!! do you see any claims of luminous output? No? Huh, why is that? BECAUSE THEY'RE JUST FUCKING FLUOROS. FOR $995.00!!


Assholes like the sellers of this ridiculously oversold fluoro light should have their balls worked over with a cheese grater.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 16, 2011)

Now's as good a time as any to draw the gentle reader's attention to the adventures of Stoney McDoper in https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/10004-how-not-grow-dope.html

And let me tell you, after the last few posts about LEDs and ordinary fluorescent lamps coated in a very thick layer of bullshit (which seems to inflate their hardware store price by a factor of 15 or so), I think I've got more Stoney tales coming again soon.


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## mrduke (Jan 16, 2011)

Ahh,, everyone loves the tales of Stoney McDoper. Just wondering do you still prefer your cloning to be done in RW as in your sig. or haveyou moved to a different method? I never seem to have any luck with RW. So I've been using Rapid Rooters at about 80% rate and taking about 15-20 days, can you make a suggestion to speed this up and have a better rate of success. THanks again Al for all your knowledge


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## phxfire (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks Al B for the info... This is the (1) of few threads that hAS VERY useful info.... 

Back to where I left off on the ventilation question... Using cooltubes makes sense but what would you recommend for getting rid of the smell... The budget is LOW... I was looking into carbon filters... I am trying to figure pressure in the room... What size tubes and fans should be used?


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## skinnyone (Jan 16, 2011)

Al B whats your opinion on CMH vs HPS? I have an old bloombox and have been reading on CMH 400w and wondering if it would be worth trying.


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## Ronjohn7779 (Jan 16, 2011)

Hey Al do you use 1400 ppm or 1100-1200 ppm start to finish? In your get a harvest every 2 weeks thread you say you do 1400 PPM start to finish and in this thread you're recommending 1100-1200.
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks-185.html#post843687
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks-194.html#post866167

I'd like to know since I'm pretty much mirroring your setup to a tee (2 1000w setups, air cooled magnum xxxl hoods, flood tables with 40 gal res, 40 plants to a table, ect..). I'll be basically using Canna A/B aqua flowering and a few additives CANNA PK 13/14 and cal-mag (if needed). The other canna additives seem like a ripoff (one looks to be septic bacteria i.e CANNAZYM, and the other RHIZOTONIC seems kind of hype-ish). 

Also what PPMs do you recommend for light, medium, and heavy feeders? My current plant was to use cannas at 1400 ppm flush every 2 weeks and top off the res with tap every few days and ph correct if need be. 

FYI tentative setup is (2) 1000w setups, 4 flood tables, 4 40 gal res, 40 plants a table, CO2 generator (got it on the low and will be running it during feeding every 90 mins for 4 mins), Dehumidifier, 4 air stones, and maybe a ductless AC setup if need be, also all the obvious ventilation (fans to air cool the hoods, another to bring fresh air to the room, and one to scrub the air). 

Also some quick general questions what size is your dehumidifier (I was looking at 30 pints a day, but it's cheaper to buy a 70 pint a day unit my room is only 9x5x?
What sized pumps do you use...I was looking at 250 gal a min or 360 gal a min (for each 40 gal res and table).

P.S. thanks for the kick ass work. Your threads have been highly informative and well written. Thats a true rarity on web forums.


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## Kaptain Kron (Jan 16, 2011)

i like how you can tell me my plants cooked like you were inside my room watching them every day man. I dont care what you guys spend your money on but you honestly make yourself look ignorant when you refuse to recognize something that works i could link you to a bunch of LED grows. If your in so cal and a med patient feel free to hit me you can come look and see for yourself. I follow ALOT of your advise al, because its simple and it straight fucking works. ALL THE TIME. I didnt want to go LED i think your missing that point but since i was forced into it i've learned many things. It's like trying to explain to someone why fuel injection is so much better than a carbuerator. The carb works reliably and great but theres better stuff out there but it costs. Im not asking for you to like LED's but to completely ignore them as even capable of growing decent herb is absolutely ridiculous. un subed to this thread its a pointless waste of time as you said.



Al B. Fuct said:


> Yeah. All that. I DO believe that high intensity LED technology will eventually come along that will make growing plants with them a functional possibility, but the limitation right now is the thermal dissipation of the LED semiconductor junction into the substrate. Serious LEDs like Luxeons have to be on a big fuckin' heatsink even now to avoid cooking the junctions and still don't develop the luminous intensity necessary to grow cannabis. Fluoros are a better bet at the moment and even the highest-output fluoros are not up to the task of flowering cannabis.
> 
> It sorta works like this: anyone claiming that LEDs outperform HPS lighting almost certainly didn't have a room setup suiting removing the heat generated by HPS lighting. They got a crappy result from HPS because the room was running at 37-40C, reckoned that was the normal result from HPS, so they chucked the HPS & got an LED panel that makes 1/10 the light as HPS. Naturally, it did somewhat better because the plants weren't getting totally cooked, but the result was still shitty, wispy buds as you'd expect from insufficient light.
> 
> ...


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## Kaptain Kron (Jan 16, 2011)

the reason people buy these is because there is no fucking mercury in them they are safer however they cost out the ass to not have to worry about, wow light nazi's in here next i bet you will tell me that CMH is complete bullshit too.



Al B. Fuct said:


> Hygrozyme is an enzymatic cleaner. Enzymes are proteins. Proteins are organic matter. H2O2 will break down enzymes as though they were pathogens. So, no, you can't use them together.
> 
> Yup.
> 
> ...


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 16, 2011)

hay al, have you ever thought about starting a class on growing, half of riu will be there no matter where it is. your name is golden. even if you put your name on plant food it will sell. just got done replacing the circuit panel for the whole house, now its time to play with some hydroton. thanks for eveything "DR. AL"


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## whuh (Jan 16, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No. Fill the netpots with clay pellets. When your clones in RW cubes have rooted, nest them in the pellets 1/2" above the floodline. 40mm (about 1.5") plastic wrapped RW cubes are preferred. See the link in my sig to cloning in rockwool.


My pots are 4.5" tall, so can I fill them with 3.5" of hydroton then have the 1.5" rockwool sticking out 1/2" over the pot so I can flood my table 3"? or does the entire rockwool cube have to be in the hydroton?

also since I'm using netpots how do I deal with light hitting the roots growing on the outter part of the pot? Not outside of the pot but the roots circling just inside on the edges.


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 16, 2011)

whuh read page17 post 163


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## whuh (Jan 16, 2011)

jojodancer10 said:


> whuh read page17 post 163


I did.... I'm asking if it's okay for them to be 1/2" over the top of the pot so I can flood 3"


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 16, 2011)

i dont think so, u want the r/w to be a 1/2 inch above the flood line so the roots can grow into the hydroton. then fill the rest of the pot with hydroton. use 1.5 inch r/w. remember only 1/2 inch above the water line


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## whuh (Jan 16, 2011)

Thats what I'm saying since my pot is only 4.5" tall,If I put 3.5" of hydroton THEN put the rockwool ontop and fill around the edges with more hydroton. Then flood 3" so my rockwool is 1/2" above the water.


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 16, 2011)

i think you got it boss.but may i ask why do you have 4.5 inch pots? what size is your table? we are all learning here each one teach one


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## whuh (Jan 16, 2011)

I see what you mean now. Your saying you think I need to put the hydroton ON TOP of the rockwool too? That's what I thought too, but it seems like Al was saying you don't have to... I'm sure he'll will clear it up lol.

My table is 4'x4'x7" tall. I have no clue why they're only 4.5" tall lol. I just bought 6" netpots thinking they'd be 6" diameter & height.. Anyone know if net pots are usually this short or what the reason is? They're from 2 different places too and they were both that size.


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 16, 2011)

whuh i dont think al will be on rui long, his last post was 2008! he said he was just checking in but if each one teach one we will be ok. im on the same page as u 4x4x7 table 4x4 tent 1000w light, aircool hood, 7 inch square pots lol we are on our way


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## drgreentm (Jan 16, 2011)

if your rockwool is not physically touching the water you shouldnt have anything to worry about exposing the top of the wool for the fact that it should be dry all the time and not the slightest bit damp if its above the water level at all times just the roots should be in the wet hydroton. now if your rw cube is getting wet and not under the hydroton you could get algae and mold from it being damp and exposed to the light.


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## whuh (Jan 16, 2011)

jojodancer10 said:


> whuh i dont think al will be on rui long, his last post was 2008! he said he was just checking in but if each one teach one we will be ok. im on the same page as u 4x4x7 table 4x4 tent 1000w light, aircool hood, 7 inch square pots lol we are on our way


 He was just here today answering questions. I hope he's not gone yet. I still have a few things to ask. lol


drgreentm said:


> if your rockwool is not physically touching the water you shouldnt have anything to worry about exposing the top of the wool for the fact that it should be dry all the time and not the slightest bit damp if its above the water level at all times just the roots should be in the wet hydroton. now if your rw cube is getting wet and not under the hydroton you could get algae and mold from it being damp and exposed to the light.


 cool so it should NEVER get wet? I read somewhere like once a week or maybe month you should flush it or something.. I don't need to do that?


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## Bob Smith (Jan 16, 2011)

Al, great to see around - hope you're happy and healthy in the new year.

Started out being LP aero/NFT but I'm currently converting it to TAG (aka HP Aero).

Figured I'd share a quick bit of my little twist on the typical SOG:


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## TallBuddy (Jan 16, 2011)

Hey al,
You're the man! My upcoming grow is going to be using 4 2x2 trays with 2 600w light and 16 6 inch pots in each tray inspired by your grow. I've currently only have 2 mothers but will take two cuttings soon to double the moms under a 250w mh, will that be enough light for the mothers? Also, would the two 600s be overkill and might I have better results with 1 1kw lamp? Thanks lots!

PnP


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 16, 2011)

OK, _now _I'm annoyed. I just spent 45 mins replying to several of the 2 pages of questions waiting for me, hit POST and the RIU board threw an error and LOST THE FUCKING LOT. 

If this happens again, I'm NOT going to bother re-writing all those answers. I simply have too many other things to do. 

OK, _once more with feeling_... pardon me if I'm brief. 



mrduke said:


> Ahh,, everyone loves the tales of Stoney McDoper. Just wondering do you still prefer your cloning to be done in RW as in your sig. or haveyou moved to a different method? I never seem to have any luck with RW. So I've been using Rapid Rooters at about 80% rate and taking about 15-20 days, can you make a suggestion to speed this up and have a better rate of success. THanks again Al for all your knowledge


 Cheers for the thanks.  

If you have no luck with RW cubes, there's a high probability that you're keeping them too wet. RW is highly absorbent and it's very easy to overwater the material. Refer to my thread on cloning in RW in my signature for details. I have changed the process only slightly; I'm now using only plain water to pre-soak the cubes and water the clones, no H2O2, no pH correction. Works fine, 100% strikes in 10 days. Clonebox air temp is 26-27C, heat mat temp set to 30C. 



phxfire said:


> Thanks Al B for the info... This is the (1) of few threads that hAS VERY useful info....
> 
> Back to where I left off on the ventilation question... Using cooltubes makes sense but what would you recommend for getting rid of the smell... The budget is LOW... I was looking into carbon filters... I am trying to figure pressure in the room... What size tubes and fans should be used?


 Most cooltubes are 150mm dia. Use a good quality 150mm axial blower for the cooltubes, preferably a fan with ball bearings on the motor shaft. Carbon filters present a high static pressure load. You must use a centrifugal blower with carbon filters. You need to shift the volume of the room's airmass in about 3 mins. A 500 cu ft room needs a ~167CFM exhaust blower.



skinnyone said:


> Al B whats your opinion on CMH vs HPS? I have an old bloombox and have been reading on CMH 400w and wondering if it would be worth trying.


 CMH is kinda interesting but not really necessary. CMH does have a broader spectrum but cannabis doesn't need the blue end of the spectrum for flowering. In SoG, you're not vegging the plants to be flowered, so  all the flowering area needs is HPS. 



Ronjohn7779 said:


> Hey Al do you use 1400 ppm or 1100-1200 ppm start to finish? In your get a harvest every 2 weeks thread you say you do 1400 PPM start to finish and in this thread you're recommending 1100-1200.
> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks-185.html#post843687
> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks-194.html#post866167


 I've since revised the nute strength downward. 1000-1100ppm from go to whoa. 



> I'd like to know since I'm pretty much mirroring your setup to a tee (2 1000w setups, air cooled magnum xxxl hoods, flood tables with 40 gal res, 40 plants to a table, ect..). I'll be basically using Canna A/B aqua flowering and a few additives CANNA PK 13/14 and cal-mag (if needed). The other canna additives seem like a ripoff (one looks to be septic bacteria i.e CANNAZYM, and the other RHIZOTONIC seems kind of hype-ish).


 Cannanym isn't compatible with H2O2, so that's out. Rhizotonic is hugely expensive & hugely stinky and I've never noticed a benefit from it. OK to skip it. 



> Also what PPMs do you recommend for light, medium, and heavy feeders? My current plant was to use cannas at 1400 ppm flush every 2 weeks and top off the res with tap every few days and ph correct if need be.


 1000-1100 will do for just about any cannabis plant. Don't flush between tanks- that actually can cause problems; flushing will leach nutes out of the rootmass. 



> FYI tentative setup is (2) 1000w setups, 4 flood tables, 4 40 gal res, 40 plants a table, CO2 generator (got it on the low and will be running it during feeding every 90 mins for 4 mins), Dehumidifier, 4 air stones, and maybe a ductless AC setup if need be, also all the obvious ventilation (fans to air cool the hoods, another to bring fresh air to the room, and one to scrub the air).


 Sounds good



> Also some quick general questions what size is your dehumidifier (I was looking at 30 pints a day, but it's cheaper to buy a 70 pint a day unit my room is only 9x5x?
> What sized pumps do you use...I was looking at 250 gal a min or 360 gal a min (for each 40 gal res and table).


 I don't recall the capacity of my dehumidifier at this instant, but I'll check later on & get back to you as time permits. Use the highest capacity dehumidifier your wallet allows. 70pt/day should do fine. Your target RH is around 30-50%, adjust the dehumidifier to suit. Use a peak-hold thermometer/hygrometer so you know the ranges. 



> P.S. thanks for the kick ass work. Your threads have been highly informative and well written. Thats a true rarity on web forums.


 Cheers for that. 



Kaptain Kron said:


> i like how you can tell me my plants cooked like you were inside my room watching them every day man. I dont care what you guys spend your money on but you honestly make yourself look ignorant when you refuse to recognize something that works i could link you to a bunch of LED grows
> 
> _blah blah blah_


 Remember what I said about not wasting my time? Welcome to my ignore list. It's rare company- you're only the 2nd person I've put on ignore in 15 years of commenting on cannabis boards. 



Kaptain Kron said:


> the reason people buy these is because there is no fucking mercury in them they are safer however they cost out the ass to not have to worry about, wow light nazi's in here next i bet you will tell me that CMH is complete bullshit too.


 Rubbish. ALL fluoros have mercury in them and the lights advertised are nothing but plain old fluoros. It's a sucker ad for ordinary fluoros. You really don't know what you're talking about- time for you to be very, very quiet. A deserving addition to my ignore list. 



jojodancer10 said:


> hay al, have you ever thought about starting a class on growing, half of riu will be there no matter where it is. your name is golden. even if you put your name on plant food it will sell. just got done replacing the circuit panel for the whole house, now its time to play with some hydroton. thanks for eveything "DR. AL"


 Thanks for your confidence & compliments. No, I've not considered running a class on growing, but I have briefly considered offering grow op help on a subscription basis. I haven't found the spare time to actually do that, though. Just far too busy. 



whuh said:


> My pots are 4.5" tall, so can I fill them with 3.5" of hydroton then have the 1.5" rockwool sticking out 1/2" over the pot so I can flood my table 3"? or does the entire rockwool cube have to be in the hydroton?
> 
> also since I'm using netpots how do I deal with light hitting the roots growing on the outter part of the pot? Not outside of the pot but the roots circling just inside on the edges.


 Load the netpots to the top. Nest the 1.5" cube into the pellets so that the cube bottoms are 1/2" above the flood level. Don't worry about light hitting the roots through the netpot mesh. The plants will make roots elsewhere, where there's no light getting to them. 

Mind you, you're going to get sick of lugging clay pellets around and you sure won't want to clean them for re-use. Give some serious thought to a sterile, disposable medium in plain old 175mm dia x 175mm tall round plastic pots. Netpots really aren't necessary. The drain holes in ordinary plastic pots do fine for admitting nute soln & draining as well. 



whuh said:


> I see what you mean now. Your saying you think I need to put the hydroton ON TOP of the rockwool too? That's what I thought too, but it seems like Al was saying you don't have to... I'm sure he'll will clear it up lol.
> 
> My table is 4'x4'x7" tall. I have no clue why they're only 4.5" tall lol. I just bought 6" netpots thinking they'd be 6" diameter & height.. Anyone know if net pots are usually this short or what the reason is? They're from 2 different places too and they were both that size.


 No need for pellets on top of the RW cube. All we're looking for is to have the cubes 1/2" above the flood level. If the cubes are touching or below the flood level, the RW will saturate and kill the young plants before they have the oppty to get roots down into the pellets. 



jojodancer10 said:


> whuh i dont think al will be on rui long, his last post was 2008! he said he was just checking in but if each one teach one we will be ok. im on the same page as u 4x4x7 table 4x4 tent 1000w light, aircool hood, 7 inch square pots lol we are on our way


Oh, I'll be around for a few days, but answering questions on here is already clashing with my other work. I just don't have time to keep up with everything on my plate. 



whuh said:


> He was just here today answering questions. I hope he's not gone yet. I still have a few things to ask. lol
> 
> cool so it should NEVER get wet? I read somewhere like once a week or maybe month you should flush it or something.. I don't need to do that?


The RW cube should not be touching or below the flood level. Roots will seek the wet pellets. You may want to hand-water the pellets AROUND the cube for a few days immediately after planting in the pellets, but don't water the cube itself.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 16, 2011)

Bob Smith said:


> Al, great to see around - hope you're happy and healthy in the new year.


 Thanks, hope all is well for you, too. 



> Started out being LP aero/NFT but I'm currently converting it to TAG (aka HP Aero).
> 
> Figured I'd share a quick bit of my little twist on the typical SOG:
> 
> View attachment 1386021View attachment 1386023View attachment 1386022


 Kinda interesting; I like the central lighting- light loses intensity when bouncing off a reflector. However, the setup looks really complex & expensive. I think I see some kinda dead looking plants in the 1st photo. What happened there?



TallBuddy said:


> Hey al,
> You're the man!


Thanks. 



> My upcoming grow is going to be using 4 2x2 trays with 2 600w light and 16 6 inch pots in each tray inspired by your grow.


Noice. Sounds like my setup in about 2/3 scale. 



> I've currently only have 2 mothers but will take two cuttings soon to double the moms under a 250w mh, will that be enough light for the mothers?


Should be fine. 



> Also, would the two 600s be overkill and might I have better results with 1 1kw lamp? Thanks lots!


No, I think a pair of 600s will be great for your 4x 2x2s as long as you're using some flavour of batwing reflector which will lay down a rectangular light pattern. Sounds like it'll do very well.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 16, 2011)

Oh, those were some clones I had in there just to test it out, but went to Europe for two weeks and decided to kill them (just let them die)..........(was still a new and untested system and didn't wanna come home to a flooded/burned down house surrounded by cops).

And yeah, it is complex (and getting more so by the day with this HP aero conversion) and expensive but that's what people do with hobbies, right? 

Stay well brother.

EDIT: if you're ever at a computer twiddling your thumbs and have three minutes to kill, here's a video of the delivery system when it was LP aero/NFT.............again, best of luck and stay healthy, kiddo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrWEfZ_4tuY

DOUBLE EDIT: Last we spoke I was telling you about my 9 plants per square foot experiment (142 plants in a 4x4 tray) - actually worked out pretty well - was too lazy to lollipop (lazy stoner) and still got 1.5+ pounds off of a 1K (which with that strain is actually pretty decent).

4" netpots, hydroton, flooding every two hours.......pics are from week 5, if memory serves.....


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 16, 2011)

Bob Smith said:


> Oh, those were some clones I had in there just to test it out, but went to Europe for two weeks and decided to kill them (just let them die)..........(was still a new and untested system and didn't wanna come home to a flooded/burned down house surrounded by cops).


Gotcha.



> And yeah, it is complex (and getting more so by the day with this HP aero conversion) and expensive but that's what people do with hobbies, right?


I hope it produces at least a metric fucktonne for you for all the work you've put into it. You're more ambitious than I am. 



> Stay well brother.
> 
> EDIT: if you're ever at a computer twiddling your thumbs and have three minutes to kill, here's a video of the delivery system when it was LP aero/NFT.............again, best of luck and stay healthy, kiddo.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrWEfZ_4tuY


Very interesting. I hope it's easy to maintain and reliable for you. 



Bob Smith said:


> DOUBLE EDIT: Last we spoke I was telling you about my 9 plants per square foot experiment (142 plants in a 4x4 tray) - actually worked out pretty well - was too lazy to lollipop (lazy stoner) and still got 1.5+ pounds off of a 1K (which with that strain is actually pretty decent).
> 
> 4" netpots, hydroton, flooding every two hours.......pics are from week 5, if memory serves.....
> 
> View attachment 1386375View attachment 1386378View attachment 1386377View attachment 1386376


Noice work.


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## Ronjohn7779 (Jan 16, 2011)

Thanks for the answers Al! By the way I'm buying a heavy duty rubbermaid 50 gallon tote to use as a res. I fill this tote to 35-40 gallons of liquids. My flood table size is 3Lx2wx8h. I'll most likely fill my flood table to 3-4 inches or so. You think a 250 gallons per hour pump or 350 gallons per hour pump would be better? Shockingly it's cheaper to buy the 350 gph pump. 

P.S. Each flood table will have 20 SOG (not 40 like I said earlier) style no veg plants (2 tables under each light). Also each flood table will have it's own res. You think I should go with 30 gals of nutrient solution or 40 per table? I realize the more you use the less PH and Nutrient deficiencies you should have in theory. I also don't want to be wasteful.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 16, 2011)

Ronjohn, you're much better off going with a Sterilite (they make a 45 gallon tote, I have shitloads of them) than the Rubbermaid - I have two of the 50 gallon Rubbermaids, they both leaked within six months (in addition, the handles only allow ~40 gallons of liquid in there, tops).

If memory serves the Sterilite is 1.5" taller than the Rubbermaid, but it's worth it, trust me.

Now back to the Al show - Al, I'm calling it a night, but God help me if you come around my way and don't drop me a line..............keep doing what you do, brother


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## whuh (Jan 16, 2011)

Awesome I think you answered all my main questions 

Have you used *Sure-To-Grow Cubes*? If so how do they compare to rockwool? Would they be better to use?

Do the netpots have any benefit since they allow more air into the root zone? How do you think grow bags or smart pots would work in an ebb & flow?

And lastly so you recommend I use loose rockwool as my medium instead of hydroton? With that I only flood once a day correct?

Thanks again Al.


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## Ronjohn7779 (Jan 16, 2011)

Bob Smith said:


> Ronjohn, you're much better off going with a Sterilite (they make a 45 gallon tote, I have shitloads of them) than the Rubbermaid - I have two of the 50 gallon Rubbermaids, they both leaked within six months (in addition, the handles only allow ~40 gallons of liquid in there, tops).
> 
> If memory serves the Sterilite is 1.5" taller than the Rubbermaid, but it's worth it, trust me.
> 
> Now back to the Al show - Al, I'm calling it a night, but God help me if you come around my way and don't drop me a line..............keep doing what you do, brother


Nice thanks I like sterilite I use them for monotubs in mushroom growing. And they've yet to leak now that you mention it. In any case, was planning on double layering each tote in case of leakage. I'll have to check out those sterilite tubs.

EDIT these are the only 45 gal totes I see sterlite makes. http://www.amazon.com/Sterilite-19481004-45-Gallon-Titanium-Latches/dp/B002C4KYFS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295245522&sr=8-1
I'd rather not get these since they have wheels...I can see those fuckers leaking.


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## TallBuddy (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the reply al! Follow up questions. 1. Could you elaborate on how you maintain your mothers...are the only cuts you make for clones? Should I be topping my mothers early on to encourage bush-like growth? (I was thinking this might be a nice way to double my mothers) and....2. I plan on running 6 inch pots, since I'm not using hydroton in the flood bed will I encounter any problems running the pots next to each other with no space in-between?...I like to support my local shop and am hoping they'll order me some floc if not fytocell but should nether be the case do you think I could get away with using "rock wool pellets" from a logical standpoint I'd think itd would similarly to floc. These pellets are very small (I'd guess they're only 1 cm in length and a quarter of that in width)

Thanks so much for being a source of experienced based knowledge!


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## onegreenthumb (Jan 17, 2011)

Hey Al I was wondering if you have ever check out the videos on Youtube about limbo's growing tech's and what you thought?

This guy seems amazing I have never seen such bud growth before.


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## phxfire (Jan 17, 2011)

BUT AL.... What about my question...... VENTALATION... 10x10 & 7ft tall ROOM

WHAT I AM BUYING:

6" inline fan 490 CFM
6" duct (30ft)
Carbon Filter (Phat Filter) 500CFM 24inch tall 6" DUCT
Exhaust Fan 980 CFM

I will be using (2) Tube Cooled 1000 WAtters... 

Is this enough to get out the smell??? I am in a little of a JAM... What would be the best configuration for the best results? Should vent system be on a timer or always ON???


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## skinnyone (Jan 17, 2011)

Al B what seedbank/breeder would you recommend? I am looking to get some seeds soon. I used to have a mother sensi star that was awesome. I see Paradise has sensi star and I am looking to get a few others.


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## Bob Smith (Jan 17, 2011)

Ronjohn7779 said:


> Nice thanks I like sterilite I use them for monotubs in mushroom growing. And they've yet to leak now that you mention it. In any case, was planning on double layering each tote in case of leakage. I'll have to check out those sterilite tubs.
> 
> EDIT these are the only 45 gal totes I see sterlite makes. http://www.amazon.com/Sterilite-19481004-45-Gallon-Titanium-Latches/dp/B002C4KYFS/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1295245522&sr=8-1
> I'd rather not get these since they have wheels...I can see those fuckers leaking.


The ones with wheels do not leak - have NEVER had any Sterilite leak.

I'd recommend building (I do) a brace around the tub with 2x4s (costs $2 in materials, just a simple square with legs) to help the tub hold its shape and not bow from the water pressure.

Again, Rubbermaids leak, Sterilites do not..............good luck.


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## Bauks (Jan 17, 2011)

Thanks for the help Al  Because of your hard typing I was able to roll out a Every week system that keeps me very Flush In Bud.
I couldn't of done it without you, I really couldn't have Thanks so much  Keep It green


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## mindphuk (Jan 17, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> OK, _now _I'm annoyed. I just spent 45 mins replying to several of the 2 pages of questions waiting for me, hit POST and the RIU board threw an error and LOST THE FUCKING LOT.
> 
> If this happens again, I'm NOT going to bother re-writing all those answers. I simply have too many other things to do.


 Al, if you use Firefox, you have to get the kick-ass Lazarus form recovery extension https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/
If you post regularly on any message board, it will end up being a lifesaver.


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## SCARHOLE (Jan 17, 2011)

al b. Fuct said:


> on flushing: The only thing you really _*need *_to flush is your toilet. There's no particular need to flush or leach cannabis plants before harvesting, but you can do it if you want. The plants store about 2 weeks worth of nutes, so you can safely give plants plain water, no ph correction needed, in weeks 6-8.
> 
> 'clearex' is completely unnecessary and falls into the dreaded 'magic sauce' category, that is, things that your local hydro shop are happy to take your dough for that won't really do anything. Nothing but time will cause plants to consume the remaining stored nutrients.


exactly pluss rep+ 
I can tell no difference if its flushed or not in all honesty.
It good to hear someone else say it.


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## green_is_good (Jan 17, 2011)

hey al, thanks for coming back i really enjoy reading your posts.


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## drgreentm (Jan 17, 2011)

SCARHOLE said:


> exactly pluss rep+
> I can tell no difference if its flushed or not in all honesty.
> It good to hear someone else say it.


 i agree last harvest was 0 flush cut them down still with nutes in the water and couldnt tell the difference.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 18, 2011)

Ronjohn7779 said:


> Thanks for the answers Al! By the way I'm buying a heavy duty rubbermaid 50 gallon tote to use as a res. I fill this tote to 35-40 gallons of liquids. My flood table size is 3Lx2wx8h. I'll most likely fill my flood table to 3-4 inches or so. You think a 250 gallons per hour pump or 350 gallons per hour pump would be better? Shockingly it's cheaper to buy the 350 gph pump.
> 
> P.S. Each flood table will have 20 SOG (not 40 like I said earlier) style no veg plants (2 tables under each light). Also each flood table will have it's own res. You think I should go with 30 gals of nutrient solution or 40 per table? I realize the more you use the less PH and Nutrient deficiencies you should have in theory. I also don't want to be wasteful.


 The size of tray pumps is really non-critical. Can be the smallest pump in the shop that can lift the water to tray level. Bigger pumps may fill the tray faster, but that's not important in a flood system. Bigger pumps, however, may be built better and may be more reliable in the long run. 

Allow about 5L per plant in reservoir volume. 5L per plant should allow a tank to last 2 weeks without being topped up. If all is well, the plants will consume an amount of nutes sufficient to keep the nutrient concentration constant, even as the res water level drops over that time frame. 



whuh said:


> Awesome I think you answered all my main questions
> 
> Have you used *Sure-To-Grow Cubes*? If so how do they compare to rockwool? Would they be better to use?


 I've never used the stuff, hadn't heard of it before it was mentioned in this thread. Worst you can do is try some. There'll be a learning curve as you get used to how to water the stuff. 



> Do the netpots have any benefit since they allow more air into the root zone?


 No, not really. Netpots in fact allow a bit too much air into the rootmass and can allow pots to dry out. Also gives readier access to the roots by pests that will damage them such as sciarid fly/fungus gnats. I'm not a fan. 



TallBuddy said:


> Thanks for the reply al! Follow up questions. 1. Could you elaborate on how you maintain your mothers...are the only cuts you make for clones?


 Sorta. When I do a pass of cuttings, I first take the biggest stems for the cuttings themselves. Then I cut back any tall stems that are too thin to use for cuttings. I aim for a goblet shape to the newly trimmed plant, removing those trying to grow from the middle. This encourages new branches to form. It's essential to cut back the plants as short as possible while leaving nodes for new growth to form. Once a mother plant starts getting too tall, that is, it's not possible to get new shoots below about 8" on the remaining stem, it's time to turf that mother plant and replace it with a clone. If the woody mainstem gets too tall, the plant's new growth will get into the light before 2 weeks passes by and I need a new batch of clones. 



> Should I be topping my mothers early on to encourage bush-like growth? (I was thinking this might be a nice way to double my mothers)


 Yep, nip off the growing tips of new mother plants. This will force branching; after a couple of passes of topping, the plant will be yielding 10-15 nnice clones every 14 days or so. 


> and....2. I plan on running 6 inch pots, since I'm not using hydroton in the flood bed will I encounter any problems running the pots next to each other with no space in-between?...


 Not if you keep the branching cut back. Anything on the bottom 1/3 of the plant needs to go. Any branches which threaten to be more than about 1" long should go, as well. 



> I like to support my local shop and am hoping they'll order me some floc if not fytocell but should nether be the case do you think I could get away with using "rock wool pellets" from a logical standpoint I'd think itd would similarly to floc. These pellets are very small (I'd guess they're only 1 cm in length and a quarter of that in width)


 Rockwool pellets will do, they're somewhat harder to overwater than floc, but they're also more expensive. 



> Thanks so much for being a source of experienced based knowledge!


 Nao wucking furries, mate. 



onegreenthumb said:


> Hey Al I was wondering if you have ever check out the videos on Youtube about limbo's growing tech's and what you thought?
> 
> This guy seems amazing I have never seen such bud growth before.


 Nope, I haven't. Got a link?



phxfire said:


> BUT AL.... What about my question...... VENTALATION... 10x10 & 7ft tall ROOM


 I _did_ answer your question:



> _*Most cooltubes are 150mm dia. Use a good quality 150mm axial blower for the cooltubes, preferably a fan with ball bearings on the motor shaft. Carbon filters present a high static pressure load. You must use a centrifugal blower with carbon filters. You need to shift the volume of the room's airmass in about 3 mins. A 500 cu ft room needs a ~167CFM exhaust blower.*_


 I do expect you to do a little work here, too. Calculate your room volume, know you have to shift that volume in 3 mins, buy a centrif blower to suit. 



> Is this enough to get out the smell??? I am in a little of a JAM... What would be the best configuration for the best results? Should vent system be on a timer or always ON???


 Carbon filters are highly effective at killing scent. The ventilation system should be on thermostatic controller that can keep the air temp between 24-26c. 



skinnyone said:


> Al B what seedbank/breeder would you recommend? I am looking to get some seeds soon. I used to have a mother sensi star that was awesome. I see Paradise has sensi star and I am looking to get a few others.


 I have not bought seeds in so long that I could not begin to comment. For a SoG grow, find a strain that's identified by the breeder as being indica dominant. Further to that, consult some of the genetics experts on this board, longtimers etc. 



Bob Smith said:


> The ones with wheels do not leak - have NEVER had any Sterilite leak.
> 
> I'd recommend building (I do) a brace around the tub with 2x4s (costs $2 in materials, just a simple square with legs) to help the tub hold its shape and not bow from the water pressure.
> 
> Again, Rubbermaids leak, Sterilites do not..............good luck.


 I've had one mega-cheap 125L plastic storage tub crack in about 10 yrs and when it did, only about a 1" fissure opened in one upper corner of the tank. It dribbled a bit but no catastrophic leaks. I like the previous suggestion of nesting a couple of tubs. I like the frame suggestion, too. However, I'll not argue with the suggestion of the Sterilite tubs. They're very good quality and not prone to failing when used as a water tank. Depending on your situation, a tank leak could be a seriously big fucking deal that might just bring the cops to your door (i.e. a big leak in an upper floor apartment grow, maintenance visits, finds your grow, all hell breaks loose...)



Bauks said:


> Thanks for the help Al  Because of your hard typing I was able to roll out a Every week system that keeps me very Flush In Bud.
> I couldn't of done it without you, I really couldn't have Thanks so much  Keep It green


 No worries, glad to have been able to help. 



mindphuk said:


> Al, if you use Firefox, you have to get the kick-ass Lazarus form recovery extension https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/lazarus-form-recovery/
> If you post regularly on any message board, it will end up being a lifesaver.


 Ooh. Good tip. Thanks for that, getting it now. 



SCARHOLE said:


> exactly pluss rep+
> I can tell no difference if its flushed or not in all honesty.
> It good to hear someone else say it.





drgreentm said:


> i agree last harvest was 0 flush cut them down still with nutes in the water and couldnt tell the difference.


 Yeah, that's one that I find to be a bit silly. Aged domestic engineer's anecdote department. 



green_is_good said:


> hey al, thanks for coming back i really enjoy reading your posts.


Cheers, thanks for that.


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## tea tree (Jan 18, 2011)

Thanks for the spider mite killer. Cool ingreds. Hey, why dont you tell us how you made those adjust a wings with cool tubes. Was it an easy mod to the wings? I am gonna look for it in a thread anyway tho. Thanks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 18, 2011)

tea tree said:


> Thanks for the spider mite killer. Cool ingreds.


My only comment on spider mite eradication was to buy a miticide containing abamectrin/avamectrin. Rotsaruck finding it, it's a restricted pesticide in some localities. Worth buying & having on hand before you get spider mite. Long shelf life, having it on hand instead of having to fish it up when you discover an infestation may make the difference between saving a crop & burying it. 



> Hey, why dont you tell us how you made those adjust a wings with cool tubes. Was it an easy mod to the wings? I am gonna look for it in a thread anyway tho. Thanks.


It was just a matter of removing the lamp socket as provided with the Adjust-A-Wings and drilling holes suiting the hanging point pem nuts on the cooltube. No biggie, 2 holes in the thin aluminum reflector, job done.


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## Ronjohn7779 (Jan 18, 2011)

Al you kick ass! Thanks for the heads up. 

Seriously this is my last question (I figure it's one of the few times to ask the master himself). By the way mad props for helping me out (I can't stress that enough). 

When trimming my SOG clones when fruiting, I do the first trimming at week 2 (cut the lower 1/3 branches) and then I do a judgment call between weeks 3-4 and recut the lower 1/3 branches. After that I leave those clones alone. Is it Correct that you only trim them twice in this timer frame? Is there anything else you do to your clones? Should I trim or cut off any larger branches in week 2 and weeks 3-4 (the second trimming).


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## whuh (Jan 18, 2011)

Under a 250w HID light how many mothers should I keep to take 14 clones every 2 weeks? Well actually probably more around 20 since I should take more then I need right? What's the tallest I should let them get(the mothers)? I've never used a 250w before.
And should I get a MH instead of HPS for them?

Lastly.... I saw in your cloning thread you said put newly cut clones in 6hr darkness then put them in 25hr light. Do you still do it this way?


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## tip top toker (Jan 18, 2011)

Hey al b. You say magic sauce and say cannabis is sufficient. Is that just A and B or do you also use PK or boost?


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## ausbushman (Jan 18, 2011)

Id just like to say thanks for taking your time and posting all this mr fuct, ive spent all day reading your 197 page long SOG post and now this much shorter one. The info that ive got out of it has been amazing, a real help with understanding some concepts. I also probably smoke some of your bud too, went through a nice Q of it last night and today while reading, keep it up!


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## onegreenthumb (Jan 18, 2011)

Here is the link for Limbo Al if you are interested?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReKlkHhCxM


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## onegreenthumb (Jan 18, 2011)

check out week two through eight, it is pretty amazing! One of my buddies thinks that it is somewhat fake, but It looks alright to me.


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## The Waiter (Jan 18, 2011)

onegreenthumb said:


> check out week two through eight, it is pretty amazing! One of my buddies thinks that it is somewhat fake, but It looks alright to me.


It kinda seems like there is a mirror on the back wall so the room looks twice as big. I could just be stoned but it seems like he never looks at that wall/mirror straight on (to hide his supposed reflection). But like i said i might just be baked hahaha


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## whuh (Jan 18, 2011)

Al, I have a few questions about my current grow. I'm growing in straight Coco with fox farms grow big. I ph my water/nutes to 5.8. I've only fed them a few times so far and I water them until I get a good amount of runoff each time. Temps are usually 69f-77f but my humidity is low (30%). There's 3 different things wrong. 1- the spots on the leaves 2- the cupping leaves mainly on 2 of 5 plants near the top+ middle (i figured theyre too hot but its only half of them and theyre all the same exact distance from the light and the cupping ones are closest to the fan). and finally 3- there are leaves twisting. I thought that might be ph but I always ph to 5.8 and my meter is calibrated every time. Any ideas?


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## drgreentm (Jan 18, 2011)

im going to go out on a limb here and say you where correct when you thought it was heat/light stress if its only the middle of the bunch getting it(right under the light im assuming) then it confirms it even more this is exactly what happens to my plants when the light is to close. right under the bulb emits more lumens then the outside plants are getting for sure i would raise your light up a little bet it helps


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## MediMary (Jan 18, 2011)

Hey Al have you ever heard of hydrofungicide from sanda products? its some au company that makes a root zone product that sterilizers, shit sounds fuckng amzing sorry off topic but don't know any cats in AU to ask .
http://www.sandaproducts.com.au/sanda_products_006.htm


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## don2009 (Jan 19, 2011)

Hey Al do you use Epsom salt in your resv?


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## GoatSmeg (Jan 19, 2011)

Hi. This is my first post after a lot of work. I do have some questions I can't find the answers to in several hundred pages so if someone has seen them please let me know:

Al's Cloner looks to be 24"... I think I see 3 24" floros in there... is that correct?
What type of thermostatic switch is in the cloner?
Any details on your eviro controllers, timers etc. would be great or if anyone has seen pics/posts I will go read it all myself.

you are the man Al. Thanks.


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## GoatSmeg (Jan 19, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 50% grade is usually available from hydro shops but failing that, check foodservice or general chemical supply houses. I persuaded my local hydro shop to buy in a pallet of 25L jugs of 50% grade from a local chemical house. I pay $AUD90 for 25L 'carboy' jugs.


Can H2O2 really sit around that long? I thought the shelf life of even sealed bottles was < 6 months...

Maybe some of the issues people report to have here with H2)2 "not working" is becuase they are not storing it properly or it is old or they don't measure well.. 

"While it can vary depending upon temperature of storage and whether exposed to U.V. light, if properly stored h2o2 will decompose at a rate of 1/4 to 1/2% concentration level per month. As concentration gradually reduces, its rate of decomposition slows."


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Jan 19, 2011)

Ronjohn7779 said:


> Al you kick ass! Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> Seriously this is my last question (I figure it's one of the few times to ask the master himself). By the way mad props for helping me out (I can't stress that enough).


 No worries.



> When trimming my SOG clones when fruiting, I do the first trimming at week 2 (cut the lower 1/3 branches) and then I do a judgment call between weeks 3-4 and recut the lower 1/3 branches.


 That'll do. 



whuh said:


> Under a 250w HID light how many mothers should I keep to take 14 clones every 2 weeks? Well actually probably more around 20 since I should take more then I need right?


 5 mums should do it. You might want to start with 7 and reduce to 5 when they're all a bit more developed.



> What's the tallest I should let them get(the mothers)? I've never used a 250w before.


 After several passes of cuttings, the mums' stems will begin to get woody. When the woody bit is more than about 8-10" tall, compost it & replace it with a clone. 



> And should I get a MH instead of HPS for them?


 MH will produce shorter, more dense foliage- which isn't at all important when raising mums to feed a SoG op. HPS will do and are cheaper than MH. 



tip top toker said:


> Hey al b. You say magic sauce and say cannabis is sufficient. Is that just A and B or do you also use PK or boost?


 I'll pretend to understand what you've asked! Was that English?

When I say 'magic sauces,' I'm referring to the useless rot that is sold in just about every hydro shop- designed to make a profit for the hydro shop, not actually help you in the grow in any way. All you really need is nutrient, pH Down for occasional use and H2O2 50% grade (35% will do if it does not have stabilisers added).



ausbushman said:


> Id just like to say thanks for taking your time and posting all this mr fuct, ive spent all day reading your 197 page long SOG post and now this much shorter one. The info that ive got out of it has been amazing, a real help with understanding some concepts. I also probably smoke some of your bud too, went through a nice Q of it last night and today while reading, keep it up!


 No worries. However, for reasons that I'm not going to explain in much depth in a public forum, it's pretty unlikely that you're smoking any of my buds. You certainly would not have needed to smoke a Q in one sitting, that's for sure. 



onegreenthumb said:


> Here is the link for Limbo Al if you are interested?
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YReKlkHhCxM


 Thanks for that. Limbo does OK for his process. His clones start out very small & spindly. He'd get much better results if he started out with more robust clones and got rid of all the branching. I also don't know how he works with that op. There's no room around the edges to get in there and manage plants once he had put all his clones in the pellets. Doesn't appear as though he has any facility to raise & lower his lighting. His clones are very small and apparently have so little root development that he has a need to add humidity to keep them from just falling over & wilting. I could double his yield with a few minor changes. 



onegreenthumb said:


> check out week two through eight, it is pretty amazing! One of my buddies thinks that it is somewhat fake, but It looks alright to me.


 Doesn't look fake, but it does look like there's a lot of room for improvements. 



whuh said:


> Al, I have a few questions about my current grow. I'm growing in straight Coco with fox farms grow big. I ph my water/nutes to 5.8. I've only fed them a few times so far and I water them until I get a good amount of runoff each time. Temps are usually 69f-77f but my humidity is low (30%). There's 3 different things wrong. 1- the spots on the leaves 2- the cupping leaves mainly on 2 of 5 plants near the top+ middle (i figured theyre too hot but its only half of them and theyre all the same exact distance from the light and the cupping ones are closest to the fan). and finally 3- there are leaves twisting. I thought that might be ph but I always ph to 5.8 and my meter is calibrated every time. Any ideas?


 I'd have guessed high air temps and pH problems. RH is pretty low @ 30%, but that shouldn't cause you that sort of problem. I've never used coco because it's an organic material. You're using an organic nutrient, so you're not using H2O2. What are you doing for pathogen control? What do the roots look like? Got plenty of air circ happening? By that, I mean an oscillating fan in every corner of the room.



MediMary said:


> Hey Al have you ever heard of hydrofungicide from sanda products? its some au company that makes a root zone product that sterilizers, shit sounds fuckng amzing sorry off topic but don't know any cats in AU to ask .
> http://www.sandaproducts.com.au/sanda_products_006.htm


 Nope, never heard of the stuff before. I'm highly skeptical about 'secret ingredients.' Always remember that user anecdotes are not evidence. While it appears that the maker has paid for some sort of professional analysis, that analysis doesn't appear to be independent- moreover, it was done on fabric material, not in a hydroponic plant growing situation. The final red flag for me is that the mfr claims to have 'discovered' the stuff. While most people enjoy a 'David beats Goliath' story, the possibility of Jim-Bob discovering a new antimicrobial substance in his garage in his spare time is so improbable as to invite serious skepticism. Were I you, I'd use H2O2, which is well known and proven independently over & over to work in hydroponic plant cultivation the world over. 



don2009 said:


> Hey Al do you use Epsom salt in your resv?


 No, never have had a need to add Mg. Seems there's enough in my tapwater. 



GoatSmeg said:


> Hi. This is my first post after a lot of work. I do have some questions I can't find the answers to in several hundred pages so if someone has seen them please let me know:
> 
> Al's Cloner looks to be 24"... I think I see 3 24" floros in there... is that correct?


Yep, 3x 24" twin-tube fixtures.



> What type of thermostatic switch is in the cloner?


There's two thermostats in the clone box. One is a digital type for air temp, one is a mercury bulb type with the bulb taped down to the heat mat, which is of course controlling the heat mat temp. 



> Any details on your eviro controllers, timers etc. would be great or if anyone has seen pics/posts I will go read it all myself.


Nothing more sophisticated than digital thermostats which run the exhaust fans. There's a few HD mechanical timers (rated for use with aircon units) which run the HPS lighting. It's very simple stuff. However, I have found that the HPM (very common Australian electrical goods supplier, usually Chinese made crap) consumer grade digital timers I was using to run my tray pumps are not bulletproof. One of them started inserting programming entries all by itself; this caused this one particular timer to run an ON cycle for several hours in the middle of the night, badly overwatering plants in that tray. I've since invested in a German industrial quality digital timer (DIN rail mounting type) to run the tray pumps. 



GoatSmeg said:


> Can H2O2 really sit around that long? I thought the shelf life of even sealed bottles was < 6 months...
> 
> Maybe some of the issues people report to have here with H2)2 "not working" is becuase they are not storing it properly or it is old or they don't measure well..
> 
> "While it can vary depending upon temperature of storage and whether exposed to U.V. light, if properly stored h2o2 will decompose at a rate of 1/4 to 1/2% concentration level per month. As concentration gradually reduces, its rate of decomposition slows."


High strength H2O2 (50%) has a shelf-life of several years. Lower strength H2O2 tends to decompose more quickly, which is why low strength H2O2 is commonly packaged with stabiliser chemicals added. Stabilisers are not plant friendly. Most 35% 'food grade' (i.e. for use in sterilising foodservice equipment, NOT for human consumption) H2O2 does not have stabilisers added.


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## GoatSmeg (Jan 19, 2011)

Many thanks. I actually read the original and followed on OG prior to becoming legal in MI. We MIGHT have saved the entire thing if it is of any value to you. I have to pull an old lappy out of the basment.

50% H2O2 is difficult to find online in the US. 35% true food graded is not. Thanks.

12v in the cloner for exhaust fan and exhaust thermostat?
Special floros in the cloner?
Do you think HPS bulb brand matters or just use plain ones?

Thanks for all the work man... I have tried to pay it forward/sideways/back on mycotopia over the years. May my mistakes/knowledge in that arena save others time and money and frustration.


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## whuh (Jan 19, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'd have guessed high air temps and pH problems. RH is pretty low @ 30%, but that shouldn't cause you that sort of problem. I've never used coco because it's an organic material. You're using an organic nutrient, so you're not using H2O2. What are you doing for pathogen control? What do the roots look like? Got plenty of air circ happening? By that, I mean an oscillating fan in every corner of the room.


 Yup, maybe the curling is from the low humidity + the fan blowing directly on it so it's over drying? The roots look good, nice and white. It doesn't seem to be affecting growth, I can see them grow a little bit every day or so. Could they be root bound? They are in 1/2 gal pots right now and they're about 8" tall a little over a month old from seed. They were doing this since probably a week or so old so I really don't think it's that. Any other ideas of what it can be? I can't think of anything. Thanks


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## mindphuk (Jan 19, 2011)

GoatSmeg said:


> Do you think HPS bulb brand matters or just use plain ones?


 I also would like your thoughts on enhanced spectrum HPS lamps or even combining MH and HPS to give a broader spectrum.


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## sparkafire (Jan 19, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> I also would like your thoughts on enhanced spectrum HPS lamps or even combining MH and HPS to give a broader spectrum.


Yes I too would like that.


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## tip top toker (Jan 20, 2011)

What can i say, touch screen phones are utter shite, biggest fad of the decade. That said only 1 word was wrong (cannabis instead of canna) and makes perfect sense to me  was just wondering whether you include canna boost and canna pk13/14 when you say that there is no need for the snake oil products, and that nutrients like canna are fine. 


Al b said:


> *(I use Canna nutes)*


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## shnkrmn (Jan 20, 2011)

Al, if you are still around, judging by the pic do you think I can add another unit to this flower setup whilst still burning only 3 lights? Here I have 2 600 HPS flanking a 1000 MH. I have another light, I'm just reluctant to increase my power consumption. The crops are currently 3 weeks apart. With another I can accelerate the pace of harvests.

And don't say anything about my mothers. I'm very soft-hearted about them and find it difficult to not let them reach their full potential. Growing up past the lights is style point reduction, I know . . . Having a 4th tub would help with that too, since I would need more cuts!


*








*​


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## sparkafire (Jan 20, 2011)

Hey shnkman , I am in the process of rebuilding my set up and building the same setup you have room size and everything other than I am running 5 gal buckets x4 with 4 plants each. What kind of weight are you getting using both spectrum's and do you have Co2? Thanks man and your grow kicks ass.


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## shnkrmn (Jan 20, 2011)

no CO2. It's definitely not a sealed environment, lol. This round is actually the first time I've had dual spectrum going. I bought that light for a big veg table, but it ended up turning my mothers into trees . But with straight HPS, running Chronic or White Russian I get an ounce+ per plant. A couple other things I've run, somewhat less. I'm still working on what the optimal number of plants is. I went from10 to 12 and now I can stuff 17 5 inch pots max in one of those units, and that's where I'm at. If I can still pull an ounce a plant with 17 in there I'll feel like I've exceeded my goal.

I think Al may have left the buildling . . . .


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 20, 2011)

very nice shnk. i saw that limbo video small plants big buds and i got to tell you, he got to be running co2. on the other hand i see what al B was saying about the flint its eazy to use


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## frogster (Jan 20, 2011)

Im with Tip top,,, I decided on Humboldt nutes (not humboldt county!), and I had better add the " extra sauce" because the part a&b are incomplete nutes for complete growing, its designed that way, unlike Gh floranova,,, sufficient for a complete grow... So, as I agree most nutes are complete, but a few, adding all the extras are a must.... otherwise you will have deficiencies.. Al, I read you like the h202, but I ran across brown algae, even at higher rates than you recommended, the h202 just fed them so they grew more, additional h202 in the amount to kill off the algae would more than likely killed off the plant also, I switched to bennies and a nute that uses amino acids and my plants love it.... There is a thread on here started by heisenburg about beneficial bacteria and the benefits your plant will have, just use nutes that dont have high salts, they will kill the bennies... Im a believer ....


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## NLXSK1 (Jan 21, 2011)

frogster said:


> Im with Tip top,,, I decided on Humboldt nutes (not humboldt county!), and I had better add the " extra sauce" because the part a&b are incomplete nutes for complete growing, its designed that way, unlike Gh floranova,,, sufficient for a complete grow... So, as I agree most nutes are complete, but a few, adding all the extras are a must.... otherwise you will have deficiencies.. Al, I read you like the h202, but I ran across brown algae, even at higher rates than you recommended, the h202 just fed them so they grew more, additional h202 in the amount to kill off the algae would more than likely killed off the plant also, I switched to bennies and a nute that uses amino acids and my plants love it.... There is a thread on here started by heisenburg about beneficial bacteria and the benefits your plant will have, just use nutes that dont have high salts, they will kill the bennies... Im a believer ....


Umm... (where to begin?)

There are 2 types of hydro nutrients. Organic and inorganic. To use H2O2 you need to have a completely inorganic system. Otherwise the H2O2 will just destroy the beneficial bacteria and other organic compounds and be rendered completely ineffective. So, you are talking about 2 different systems. 

It is easy to understand why the H2O2 did not work for you. Good luck with your organic grow.


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## ympb (Jan 21, 2011)

Thanks for stopping by. I've learned a lot from your experience, you are the man!


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## Huel Perkins (Jan 21, 2011)

I just finished reading this entire thread, great stuff Al! It's refreshing to see someone speaking from their experience rather than just passing down more forum rumors from inexperienced growers.

My question is about top heavy plants that end up falling over or even worse snapping branches off due to massive colas. I never had this problem in soil but in my 3 hydro grows it has been a huge problem for me. Tying them up with strings has been my only solution so far but its a major inconvenience due to the fact I need to be able to move my dwc buckets around in order to water and feed the plants in the rear of my room. I'm thinking about building tomato cages onto my bucket lids for my next grow... Any other suggestions???


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## flamdrags420 (Jan 21, 2011)

anyone know if sensi 2 part of AN is organic?

Al, I've seen you talk about this before and answered a question of mine a while back. But wanted to touch base with ya again on this.

What are your thoughts on running a centrifugal vertically? I run a generic brand from HTGSUPPLY 170 CFM with a carbon filter on the inlet on the garden side of the room. Room size is 462 cubic feet with passive venting. I was going to try to devise a way to test pressure or airflow on a vertical versus horizontal installation of the fan. These types of fan design to be mounted facing up at all? Any ideas on what means I could test this. I don't have access to an hvac fancy testing device.
Thanks


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## Runkill27 (Jan 21, 2011)

Ahh FUCT that was fantastic ive always wondered why people made such a big deal about using tap water, i didnt understand and would have bought some kind of filter, just because most people have them, but now i am not, thanks for saving me a couple bucks..


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## r1tony (Jan 21, 2011)

I throw Big Macs in my reservoir every week so my plants get FAT!


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 21, 2011)

well we are on our way, rewired the house new breakers for everything. the chocolope is a 50/50 not sure if she will pullthrough. using tapwater with a clone dome. rw was every dry wish me luck. bubba kush looks nice got 3 moms going in dirt, plan on doing a sog thanks for ur help *flam* i see the light bro


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## Al B. Fuct (Jan 21, 2011)

Hiya. I haven't had time to answer anything and I won't for a few days; I have a gravely ill family member. Back when I can.

Sorry.


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 21, 2011)

take care of the family al see u soon


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## doniawon (Jan 22, 2011)

best wishes AL thanks for stopping by. hope everything turns out okay..


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## drgreentm (Jan 23, 2011)

best wishes hope all goes well man


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## Ronjohn7779 (Jan 23, 2011)

Sorry Al, feel better. Best wishes for your family!


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## RoCKCoaStt970 (Jan 24, 2011)

Yo al just got s to tell u your work is greatly appriciated you are and idle in my neck off the woods! Rock out with your cock out Brother!


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## behshm (Jan 25, 2011)

Hey al When you get a sec I was wondering about your thoughts with the Uncle Ben method of topping to go along with the SOG.


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## suTraGrow (Jan 26, 2011)

behshm said:


> Hey al When you get a sec I was wondering about your thoughts with the Uncle Ben method of topping to go along with the SOG.


Im not Al apparently  but i have tired this before and the sacrifice in yield was horrible. Plants didnt have enough time to get to big :/ got like 2-4gram per plant going from 28-40gs per plants


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## shnkrmn (Jan 26, 2011)

the whole point of SOG is growing unbranched single-cola plants. So why would you top?


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## Swiezy (Jan 26, 2011)

Hi!

Nice to meet you Al(l)  I know that star of this post, maybe even of all forum got a family problems. I wish you and your family the best.

It is my first post but i have a little bit (really little) expirience with growing tomatoes,but not with hydro and perpetual.

Al you've inspired me. Im trying to copy yours OP in this same scale. I've already studied almost half of your posts and i got some notes. Anybody has something to add? Am I forgot about something? Al, I count on your answer while you can do that

That is my think-tank:


```
Motherz

-Tray can be 250x800 , rockwool floc 50mm flood 1x day
-Plants grown from seed need 6-8 weeks to sexual maturity.
-400 HPS , 24 hrs
-Canna Aqua Vega, 1400ppm, 5.8, also H2O2 every 3-4days (50l tank)
-&#8216;Tip&#8217; some growth to force division just after bringing it from clonebox. Do it for first 3 weeks, afther that - they are ready for taking cuttings.
Take 15 days to re-grow-so 4-5 Momz need are really 8-10, (4-5 replacements)
-After 3-4 parts of cuttings (each part 30cuttings ;about 2 mos worth) discard and replace, ready in about 2 weeks.
-exhaust blower 250CFM



Clonez

-RW mini cubes 40mm?? flood 2x/day to 1/3 of cube for 2-3 sec (once flooded should keep 1/4-1/3 of water after 24h)
-Rooting takes 10-12 days
-No grow nutes added to clone watering mixture.
-pH correct with phosphoric acid 'pHDown' to 5.8 and add 10ml 50% grade H2O2 per 10L of clone watering sol.
-FLUOROS 4*24W 10-12 days, then put in BLOOM
-24 hr light EXCEPT for 1st cutting (1 night dark, next few 18/6)
-small desktop fan
-heating mat


Flower

Every tray is 900x900 (820x820mm -inside), pots 175mm(4l) Fytocell with 50mm med packed rockwool in the bottom , 23-24 plants, flood to 150mm 2x/day (light on)
All flowering tanks:
-get Canna Aqua Flores, 1000-1100ppm @ 5.8 (125L tank  , 5l/plant).
-get dosed with H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/litre every 3-4 days to control pathogens.
-1000 HPS @ 12/12
-tray 2 is for week 2-4 (TRIM time!-once at the end of week 2 and 4)
-after every 2 weeks put shortest plants nearest light
-oscillating circ fans in every corner of the flowering area 
-sulfur burner. 2x/day for 8 minutes during lights off. It runs about an hour after lights-off and about an hour before lights-on
-exhaust blower >600CFM with thermostat
-intake blower 250CFM



Clean trays and rez every 2 weeks

min. 7' tall x 8' wide x 9' long space needed
Don't overwater nor overfertilize, keep your room at 24-26C @ 30-50% RH
and a fluorsescent UV ioniser (with light trap) which runs 30min on/30min off all hours- keeps scent and mould well in check. A second ioniser in the area outside the room istelf guarantees no stray scents escape. 
cooltubes with adjust-a-wings
```
I also think about replace inside ionizer with carbon filter (what size? and what size of blower? L1 750 m³/h 200mm 8" will be ok?)

From where to take fresh air(except windows)?
If i got a space, then a little of veg (1-2weeks) will increase yieald either like Al said can do nothing because without veg it better suits to HPS light pattern?

Thanks in advance,
Swiezyy


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## D3mon (Jan 26, 2011)

I have been working out some self induced kinks from my perpetual grow based off your harvest every 2 weeks, which I too cannot thank you enough for. Your batch of clones thread has allowed me to clone with 100% success every 2 weeks for the past year! With that said I would like to post my recent experience using the Lucas Formula and GH Flora series and see if anyone can relate. I have no good excuse for trying the lucas formula instead of using GH's recommendations, I too reject the magic sauces and such but I guess I fell off the wagon for a minute...

3x3 flood tray with lid, 6" net pots, 1.5" RW cubes buried in hydroton, flooding every 2 hours even at night (mum table shares timer for now), 600 HPS with a 32x26 air cooled reflector (400 MH over mums). Current max air temp is 81f and min is 63f humidity around 20-30% max. 27 gallon res, 1100-1200 ppm of micro/bloom (after reading this I will drop to 1000-1100).

I cut my clones at 10" similar to Al, they root in 10-12 days like clockwork. For the past 3 harvests I have had erratic plant heights. I had 3 strains, 2 indica dom and a sativa mix. The indica dom strains all went from about 9" to 20-24" during flower, which when missing the lower 1/3 ends up with one mediocre bud about 6" long and the sativa mix may have went as high as 28" tall but long internode spacing as I expected (I no longer clone this strain).

I just switched my mums back over to 1-1-1 ratio of grow/micro/bloom. Does anyone think that using the lucas formula could be the cause of such short plants? Am I expecting too much for the plant to go from 10" to 30" when put under 12/12 after the clones root well? 

I have also stopped pruning the plants at all, where before I was trimming them in week 3 and 4. I had thought perhaps I was stressing/stunting them by doing this so late that the plant stops growing in length and starts budding as a natural response? I must stay within my legal plant numbers, so I can let them branch out a bit, i'd say I run about 1.5-2 plants per square foot

I also wondered about the low air temps at night, since I didn't really start to notice how short they were staying until winter arrived. But at the same time its not like I have a good baseline height to begin with, I just started a log on starting/ending heights. I know 63f is not TOO cold, but is it cold enough to perhaps slow growth like this? It also seems that more trichs appear sooner, say around week 3...

I am taking bigger clones now, fat stems and 12" tall or so. I am going to buy a small radiant heater to keep the night temps close to 72.

I usually just lurk, but i happened to see this new thread and thought I would see what others have experienced. 

Thanks!


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## flamdrags420 (Jan 26, 2011)

D3mon said:


> I have been working out some self induced kinks from my perpetual grow based off your harvest every 2 weeks, which I too cannot thank you enough for. Your batch of clones thread has allowed me to clone with 100% success every 2 weeks for the past year! With that said I would like to post my recent experience using the Lucas Formula and GH Flora series and see if anyone can relate. I have no good excuse for trying the lucas formula instead of using GH's recommendations, I too reject the magic sauces and such but I guess I fell off the wagon for a minute...
> 
> 3x3 flood tray with lid, 6" net pots, 1.5" RW cubes buried in hydroton, flooding every 2 hours even at night (mum table shares timer for now), 600 HPS with a 32x26 air cooled reflector (400 MH over mums). Current max air temp is 73f and min is 63f humidity around 20-30% max. 27 gallon res, 1100-1200 ppm of micro/bloom (after reading this I will drop to 1000-1100).
> 
> ...


Nice post I hope to learn from this one


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## mindphuk (Jan 26, 2011)

What are the two strains you kept? Sometimes it's just a genetics thing, you might be getting the most out of these particular strains with your particular setup. Are you running cool tubes? How close is the light? 1000w lamp would also help. A space heater during lights off should be helpful. Colder temperatures do indeed slow down metabolism.


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## D3mon (Jan 26, 2011)

The 2 strains I have are supposed to be Permafrost and Blue Thunder, and when I first started growing the strains I could pull 1.5-2oz off each plant. During the summer I actually had one hit 2.25oz with very little pruning (plant was about 38" tall which is my max) That plant grew with the net pot sitting right on the floor of the tray, roots exposed to light and light algea all over. These last few batches have been less than 1/2oz a plant, but I have also taken on a MM patient so I have a few more plants in the bunch than I did back then (more per sq ft)... 

Also I should mention that I take clones of clones for flowering and new mums (up to at least 15 crops like this), I have recently added bubblelicious and bubblegum kush clones that grew from seeds via Nirvana and have yet to see how they grow. Currently they are both at week 3 of flower and 16" tall, hopefully they have a growth spurt but I'm already a little discouraged. 

Trial and error is a bitch when you only get 2 chances a month to make changes!


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 26, 2011)

lol i dont know what i was thinkin but i was smoking. my last grow i stressed one plant and got seeds from her. she was a bubba kush, i germ the seeds and the grow out to be nice. my question is how can i tell if its a male or female? i always buy femseeds. any help?


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## Swiezy (Jan 27, 2011)

If you don't have any males in the flower room that u almost can be sure it will be a female identical to your selfpolinated plant. there is aswell a little possibility that it'll be a hermie.


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## mindphuk (Jan 27, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> If you don't have any males in the flower room that u almost can be sure it will be a female identical to your selfpolinated plant. there is aswell a little possibility that it'll be a hermie.


 A selfed plant is not identical to the mother. Yes the genes will all be from the mother but the genome will be different. These are still haploid cells joining to create a new genotype and phenotype that is different than the original. There will be less diversity than a male-female pairing but they will not be genetically identical like a clone is.


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## medicine21 (Jan 27, 2011)

D3mon said:


> I have been working out some self induced kinks from my perpetual grow based off your harvest every 2 weeks, which I too cannot thank you enough for. Your batch of clones thread has allowed me to clone with 100% success every 2 weeks for the past year! With that said I would like to post my recent experience using the Lucas Formula and GH Flora series and see if anyone can relate. I have no good excuse for trying the lucas formula instead of using GH's recommendations, I too reject the magic sauces and such but I guess I fell off the wagon for a minute...
> ...
> I just switched my mums back over to 1-1-1 ratio of grow/micro/bloom. Does anyone think that using the lucas formula could be the cause of such short plants? Am I expecting too much for the plant to go from 10" to 30" when put under 12/12 after the clones root well?
> 
> ...


I'd love to learn from this too, as I was planning on somehow combining the Lucas method with Al's, which is apparently what you are already doing.

Do you use peroxide?

Here is a quote from Ask Lucas thread with his opinion on peroxide use:

_"... So, anyone needing to use peroxide in their res, has too little oxygen is solution. Peroxide goes away in minutes, so if oxygen is the goal, aereation is the cure, not peroxide.

in any case, dont use peroxide, its a bandaid for a symptom, whose cause is poor oxygen delivery. Assuming the hydroponic system is properly aereated, the gardener does not need to use peroxide with any nutrients, and need not think about growing a bacterial field, except with Metanaturals.

These comments are specific to liquid nutes used in hydroponics. Im not talking about organic composting, and the role of bacteria in outdoor soil.

Lucas"_

Seems to be the opposite of Al's teachings. Opinions?


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## don2009 (Jan 27, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> I'd love to learn from this too, as I was planning on somehow combining the Lucas method with Al's, which is apparently what you are already doing.
> 
> Do you use peroxide?
> 
> ...


I dont agree with not using perxiode b4 I used it, my roots was dark then put some regular perxiode from the dollar store in my resv a day or 2 later they were white and happy, so idk what to say bout that. I bout some h202 25% now love it.


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## D3mon (Jan 27, 2011)

I do not use peroxide but not for any particular reason, I will be trying it eventually but I was hoping to get my perpetual system flowing so I could compare before and afters. I have not totally given up on the lucas formula because many claim it works and it does actually grow good smoke, but I need to know for sure that its not a nute problem so I will follow GH's directions for now. To be honest I am leaning more towards it being something I am doing to stress them, but I was also hoping someone would chime in with the same issue and I would get lucky  I have just started to record data for each crop cycle (something I should have been doing all along) and if I determine its the nutes then I will surely chime in here on RIU!


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 28, 2011)

I used lucas and I had nitroget issues right off the bat, so I use the feeding chart GH grow/micro/bloom and correct ph and my ppm is 1300 and they love it now
I also use AVN big bud and 10ml per gal of 29% h202 also looking into adding snow storm


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## drgreentm (Jan 28, 2011)

don2009 said:


> I dont agree with not using perxiode b4 I used it, my roots was dark then put some regular perxiode from the dollar store in my resv a day or 2 later they were white and happy, so idk what to say bout that. I bout some h202 25% now love it.


 i agree the thought of using PEROXIDE for my plants was horrifying but man when i got some 28% h202 man the cleanliness was amazing.


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## medicine21 (Jan 28, 2011)

The other main difference between Al and Lucas that I see, is that Lucas adds back nutes with res water top up and Al is against it. The reason Al gives is that you don't know the exact N-P-K ratio of the res when adding back and this would throw it out of whack. This tells me that the used res (before topping up) is likely ALREADY NOT in the desired N-P-K ratio, so then what is the difference between adding more nutes with water top up or adding just plain water? The res will still have an incorrect N-P-K in both cases. Does adding more nutes AMPLIFY the issue?


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## jojodancer10 (Jan 31, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> I used lucas and I had nitroget issues right off the bat, so I use the feeding chart GH grow/micro/bloom and correct ph and my ppm is 1300 and they love it now
> I also use AVN big bud and 10ml per gal of 29% h202 also looking into adding snow storm


 wow that snow storm is just that a snowstorm. i used that with afgah from wos and it was covered with snow the price is up there and not sure if i would buy more. let me know how your grow goes with it hellraizer


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## trichome fiend (Feb 2, 2011)

...thankx for all your knowledge Al....here's a few shots of my zero veg mini gardens...you've inspired me alot bro! ...virtual of my best to ya! 


View attachment 1418810View attachment 1418813View attachment 1418807View attachment 1418809View attachment 1418804View attachment 1418806View attachment 1418816 View attachment 1418805


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## medicine21 (Feb 2, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...thankx for all your knowledge Al....here's a few shots of my zero veg mini gardens...you've inspired me alot bro! ...virtual of my best to ya!


Very nice, trichome fiend! Where did you get (or how did you make) that screen grid that keeps the plants in place?


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## Rick Ratlin (Feb 3, 2011)

Al hope all is well. Long time reader of your knowledge. I use your cooltube/ AAW diy combo for a 1k hps in the flowering room, love it. I use a light diffuser for hot spots, my lamp is about 14" above the canopy. Do you use a light diffuser? I feel like it shades some areas too much, but don't want to risk burning my plants.


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## RyanTheRhino (Feb 3, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> * Organic hydroponics: Is complete nonsense. The 'organic' buzzword is overused and largely misunderstood by the general public. 'Organic' doesn't mean 'good' or 'better.' It means that the material in question is sourced from a biological system. Organic nutrients are, in actual fact, mostly shit. Compost and manures themselves are not assimilable by plants; it's the breakdown components, N, P & K, which plants eat. There's no difference between the N, P & K obtained via organic matter breaking down and that obtained from "chemical" aka inorganic fertilisers. However, inorganic nutes allow you to precisely and CONSISTENTLY control the amount of N, P & K presented to the plants. With 'organic' nutes, you never really know what the precise amounts and ratios of N, P & K your plants will actually get. Moreover, inorganic nutes are not affected by the use of H2O2 in hydroponic nute solns. Inorganic based hydro systems are clean, tanks are clear and such systems are much easier to maintain, especially for the newbish. Now, before some holy organic evangelist upbraids me for not knowing what I'm talking about, know ye this: my veg patch out back is run on organic principles; my cannabis plant waste, lawn clips and kitchen veg cuttings are composted and incorporated into the garden soil after spending about a year breaking down in the compost bins. It works pretty well- outdoors, where I don't give a damn how many bugs & microbes are hanging about. In my indoor hydroponic grow-op, I want to have only ONE living organism: cannabis plants.
> 
> So, wut up, dawg?


Are you telling me people have actually been telling others to throw compost into their rez for nutes? WOW. That sound like trouble


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## jojodancer10 (Feb 4, 2011)

tric im not to far from starting boss got the moms up and growing lst them 2weeks ago


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## kstampy (Feb 6, 2011)

Al B, first off you have taught me a great deal in the past so thanks very much for your efforts to help our community. Thanks for taking the time to come back around and help out some more, hopefully you don't waste your time repeating yourself over and over haha. My best wishes to your family as well buddy.

A couple of things I have picked up over time since reading all of your insight on growing years ago.

Where to get Fytocell in the states? ehydroponics.com.

Physan20 - Seems great for disinfecting, what do you think?

*Powdery Mildew? Eagle 20 EW. USE WITH CAUTION !READ!*- 2ml/Gal + spreader/sticker spray every inch of the plant top and bottom, lights out for 3 hours, crank the fans for 30-60 mins and lights on. (systemic for 25-30 days give yourself at least 55-60 to be safe, to be even safer do it before flower) - huge thread on this on ICMag. It has absolutely STOPPED PM. Spray your clones just before flower and forget about PM. Remember not to use as an excuse for poor environment. Also one bottle should last you a life time since the mix rate is so low. Try to use this in some sort of rotation as there are other products such as this, we don't want some super strain of PM forming and floating around. Wear a respirator and long sleeves and pants and gloves etc. BE SAFE! This is heavy duty stuff but more than worth it because I have had a personal battle with PM for a very long time and have tried just about everything I could read about on every single canna forum, aside from starting from new plants and sterilizing everything with bleach this is the way to go. I believe it is used on golf courses lol. Al I am confident if you throw this in to your rotation as a preventative you will never have to burn sulfur ever again, personally sulfur was like a long term band-aid for me and was a PITA that smelled like ass.

I tried Fytocell + RW Cube clones and just could not get it to work so maybe between batches again I will give it another go, clones just wouldn't root in to the Fytocell. The RW cube the clone was in would be dry yet the Fytocell around it and below it was wet, the plants would just droop and die a week later. Clones were healthy and bursting with roots as I have rooted hundreds in RW now with about 99% success with your methods (some times I miss one when watering or plug it in wrong in a bad cube eh it happens). I only had to flood about once a day a few inches up to make the Fyto not too wet. Working on my ez cloner again and that should eliminate that issue, stupid brown algae actually lives and thrives through H202, another huge thread on that at ICM by richyrich. That's all I can think of for now. 

Hope all is well for you, I can not stress how much I learned from you when I started and really appreciate it!

P.S. You have no idea how much I have searched for SWT#4 with no luck, I thank all the ridiculous hype about "OGs" around here lol. I did end up with Blockhead, LUI (3 diff. mothers) and Dutchgrown's SWT#3/Bros Grimm C99, all Wonderful hybrids so thanks for turning me on to a strain that relieves me medically as well as being easy to grow. 

Just so ya know Kootenay has taken the steering wheel for SOL with Steve's oversight and is currently remaking SWT#3 which should be out in the coming months since he has already chosen parents from around 110 seeds .


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## Swiezy (Feb 6, 2011)

Kstampy,

I read that you got some notes from Al. B's thread. Maybe you could share it with us via rapidshare or something?


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## ldachosenonel (Feb 6, 2011)

Question about toping off the rez's, when plants start drinking alot do I just add ph'ed water to the rez or does the water need to have nutes also?


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## BluBerry (Feb 7, 2011)

I have seen this question asked several times. IMO it will be hard to try to mix nutes to the right PPM by mixing in small amounts. So it's prob best to add pH'd water back into the res. Then when you do a weekly res change you should add nutes back and adjust accordingly.


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## ldachosenonel (Feb 7, 2011)

Thanks alot Bluberry cause I wasnt sure if adding ph'ed water would lower the ppm concentration


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## ldachosenonel (Feb 7, 2011)

Question Al bleach or H2O2 for my reservoir. Half the people I ask say bleach is fine half say dont use bleach under any circumstances and to use H2O2. Whats is you ropinion and at what concentration should I use either at?


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## BluBerry (Feb 7, 2011)

im a noob but everywhere i have read i have not read any bad things. 6-8 drops per gallon i believe is adequate ratio. everyone has their own opinions tho. I have washed many homes and roofs with sodium hypochlorite which is pool chlorine and stronger than bleach and it would soak the outside plants with the bleachy water and i never had any problems with the plants dying. i know thats a little different but bleach is bleach and a plants a plant. city water has chlorine in it and we drink it. i have well water and not sure of the chlorine level but i still add a small amount of bleach to my res. but who am i to say? my first round with dwc.


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## PetFlora (Feb 8, 2011)

*RE: MUNICIPAL H2O: *Perhaps you forgot that when using an indoor rez, with certain nutes, at least, you can have too much Ca-Mg. But let's go one step farther. 

We are no longer drinking our father's Municipal water. Much is recycled, and now contains a cocktail of prescription medications that were flushed. Google it. Knowing the issues with chlorine (bleaching agent I do not want in my body, and Flouride, a known toxin, and Ammonia- used as a buffer because they use so much chlorine), I have been using either a distiller or RO for 30+ years for cooking and drinking. If it's good enough for me, it's good enough for my rez.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2011)

Hiya.

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, but I thought I'd drop in and suggest that I'm not dead. Much.

A few quick notes...

It isn't necessary to use enhanced spectrum lighting for flowering cannabis. It wants a yellow-red accented spectrum at that time and HPS suits ideally. You can veg your mums with MH if you like, but I use a 400HPS over mine and it works great.

Don't use laundry bleach in nute solutions. Ever. 

If you must top up your tanks, use plain tapwater then adjust the pH of the solution. Don't pH adjust the top-up water. 

I'm not a fan of customised nutrient mixes i.e. Lucas. I prefer to rely on the expertise of the mfr and use their mixing instructions. You can be well assured that mfrs have some time & trouble in testing the stuff- or growers wouldn't buy it twice.

Yes, seeds from a hermaphroditic plant will wind up either female or hermaphroditic. Thanks for covering that one, *mindphuk.*

H2O2 remains effective (primarily) as a steriliser and (secondarily) as a root oxygenator for several days in nute solutions. The amount of time varies dependent upon several factors; the amount of pathogens in the system which will react with the H2O2, the size of the tank and the concentration maintained. Flood systems with plants in pots of absorbent media which are watered generally once a day benefit significantly from H2O2 maintenance. Other types of media (such as pellets) and watering systems (i.e aeroponics) which allow multiple cycle/day if not continuous watering have much better root oygenation just by their very natures. However, they're also a pain in the ass in terms of handling old media and system maintenance. I am a stoned slacker, can't drive that point home quite enough. Plants in pots of absorbent lightweight, disposable media are mobile within the op, flood systems are very low maintenance, and lightweight media like rockwool and Fytocell are relatively cheap and easy to dispose of. 

Chlorine and fluoride in the amounts as applied by municipal water treatment plants are harmless to humans and plants. There's ample evidence that the use of them has significant benefits at negligible risk. If you have water paranoia, you can filter your water through a goat's bladder and have it blessed by a homeopath for all I care- but it's utterly unnecessary. 

I'll try to get back on more often, but duty in the op calls and I'll be stacked up for a day or two.


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## medicine21 (Feb 24, 2011)

Al, great to see you back! On the topic of oxygenating, do you know how much air pump power is sufficient to oxygenate each 100L of reservoir? I would guess the more the merrier, it's just the industrial ones can be quite loud. There is this GH Air Pump rated at 20L/min, but I am not sure how to apply that to reservoir sizes for best results.

Any drawbacks of having too much air, maybe H2O2/nutes bubbling out?


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## homebrewer (Feb 24, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Al, great to see you back! On the topic of oxygenating, do you know how much air pump power is sufficient to oxygenate each 100L of reservoir? I would guess the more the merrier, it's just the industrial ones can be quite loud. There is this GH Air Pump rated at 20L/min, but I am not sure how to apply that to reservoir sizes for best results.
> 
> Any drawbacks of having too much air, maybe H2O2/nutes bubbling out?


It doens't matter how long you oxygenate or how much power you use, you're only going to get to about 8ppm of dissolved O2.


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## medicine21 (Feb 24, 2011)

homebrewer said:


> It doens't matter how long you oxygenate or how much power you use, you're only going to get to about 8ppm of dissolved O2.


Yes, that is true, although depends on the water temperature. At sea level:

Temp	Fresh Water mg/l	
°F	°C 
50	10 11.3	
59	15 10.1	
*68	20 9.1	*
72	22 8.7	
75	24 8.4	
79	26 8.1	
83	28 7.8	
86	30 7.5	

I believe the ideal water temperature we should shoot for is 17-20 Celc, so let me rephrase the question:

How much air pump power measured in L/Min do I need to maintain max oxygenation of a 100L reservoir?


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## mihjaro (Feb 24, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You say heat is a concern. You'll want to be able to run your grow op lighting at night when the air you have to draw in for cooling is cool as possible. I don't know what sort of a room you're planning to use for your op, but to be useful, the cooltube will need to draw air from outside the grow room airmass and dump it outside of that airmass as well. The ventilation for the op should vent to outside the op as well. *If you're using a spare bedroom, dumping warm air into the attic is a good way to go.* Putting ballasts in the attic is also a smart move.


I can agree with everything above, except for the emphasized sentence. For odor control reasons, it's a good idea to maintain a negative pressure differential between the grow area and the rest of the building, creating a negative pressure differential between the building and the outside is not. Unless the outside are temperature is above the setpoint when heating or below the setpoint when cooling you are bringing air which will need to be conditioned. For instance, if it's the middle of summer and the nighttime temperatures are in the 90s your are replacing 75 degree air from the grow area with air that is much warmer. I think it's better to take the hit and cool the grow room air in the summer and get the benefit of some extra "free" BTUs in the winter. In temperate climates, it's mostly a wash in terms of cost.

Running an isolated ventilation pathway for the lights is probably the easiest way to boost the cooling capacity of a given ventilation system and is the best advice I've ever heard. With a little work, it's really easy to build a system that captures the heat from the lights in winter for heating the building and dumps all of the heat from the lights in summer so as to not add to the cooling load.

ETA: The whole quote is italicized so, to be clear, here is the sentence I refer to above.

*If you're using a spare bedroom, dumping warm air into the attic is a good way to go.

*


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## Swiezy (Feb 24, 2011)

Nice to hear you Al.

I still got hope that you will answer to my post

```
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/399206-its-fuct-world-25.html#post5225382
```
Peace


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Al, great to see you back! On the topic of oxygenating, do you know how much air pump power is sufficient to oxygenate each 100L of reservoir? I would guess the more the merrier, it's just the industrial ones can be quite loud. There is this GH Air Pump rated at 20L/min, but I am not sure how to apply that to reservoir sizes for best results.
> 
> Any drawbacks of having too much air, maybe H2O2/nutes bubbling out?


 A plain old fish tank air pump and a large bubble-curtain type airstone running continuously will do the job. The bubble curtain 'airstones' I use are not really stones. They're a tubular foam material with a stainless steel tube inside which keeps them from floating. The compressed/glued sand sort of 'airstones' are not tolerant of acidic nute solutions are thus not useful in this application, They will disintegrate into a pile of sand in a few weeks. 

While I've not tested the effect of raging amounts of air bubbling through the nute solution, I don't think that there'd be any effect other than being noisy. An ordinary fish tank air pump is sufficient, though. 



homebrewer said:


> It doens't matter how long you oxygenate or how much power you use, you're only going to get to about 8ppm of dissolved O2.


Yep, but that's generally enough. As long as you're getting and maintaining bright white roots, there's enough oxygen. 



mihjaro said:


> I can agree with everything above, except for the emphasized sentence. For odor control reasons, it's a good idea to maintain a negative pressure differential between the grow area and the rest of the building, creating a negative pressure differential between the building and the outside is not. Unless the outside are temperature is above the setpoint when heating or below the setpoint when cooling you are bringing air which will need to be conditioned. For instance, if it's the middle of summer and the nighttime temperatures are in the 90s your are replacing 75 degree air from the grow area with air that is much warmer. I think it's better to take the hit and cool the grow room air in the summer and get the benefit of some extra "free" BTUs in the winter. In temperate climates, it's mostly a wash in terms of cost.
> 
> Running an isolated ventilation pathway for the lights is probably the easiest way to boost the cooling capacity of a given ventilation system and is the best advice I've ever heard. With a little work, it's really easy to build a system that captures the heat from the lights in winter for heating the building and dumps all of the heat from the lights in summer so as to not add to the cooling load.
> 
> ...


I agree that a grow room should be maintained at a negative pressure. This is something that I covered on a few occasions in the original 'Get A Harvest Every Two Weeks' thread when talking about ventilation system design. In that thread, I suggested using an axial blower (or blowers) for intake and a centrifugal for exhaust, with the CFM rating for the intake blower/s about 5-10% lower than the CFM capacity of the exhaust.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> Nice to hear you Al.
> 
> I still got hope that you will answer to my post
> 
> ...


All sounds good. The only change I'd make to your notes is that you really only need about 25mm of tightly packed rockwool floc in the bottoms of the pots to keep the Fytocell crumbs from washing out of the pots. Yes, a carbon filter is fine for scent control. In fact, since the writing of the original bit, I have eliminated the ozone generator from my flowering room and am using a large carbon filter driven by a centrifugal blower.


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## potroast (Feb 24, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> ... you can filter your water through a goat's bladder and have it blessed by a homeopath for all I care- but it's utterly unnecessary.



Uhhh, if you used a goat bladder, shouldn't that be _*udderly *_unnecessary?? 


Thanks Al


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2011)

Clever, but what if it is a male goat that has been sacrificed under the light of a waxing 1st quarter moon? Ever tried to milk one? Did you make a new friend?


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## kevin (Feb 24, 2011)

Al, what's your thoughts on this lighting situation, is a 1000hps for a 4x4 closet overkill? been thinking about getting a 600 to save on utilities but if it's going to cause a significant loss of yield the 1000 will stay. there are no heat issues.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 24, 2011)

kevin said:


> Al, what's your thoughts on this lighting situation, is a 1000hps for a 4x4 closet overkill? been thinking about getting a 600 to save on utilities but if it's going to cause a significant loss of yield the 1000 will stay. there are no heat issues.


Use the kW. A 600 is just that little bit too small for 16 sq ft.Wrap that rascal in a cool tube with a closed air circuit.


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## kevin (Feb 24, 2011)

i've got my reflector insulated and ducted the way you recomend. thanks Al, you're the best!!



Al B. Fuct said:


> Use the kW. A 600 is just that little bit too small for 16 sq ft.Wrap that rascal in a cool tube with a closed air circuit.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 25, 2011)

kewel beens.


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## zem (Feb 25, 2011)

5000lumens/sq.ft is the minimum requirement to flower, a high efficiency 600 should cover a 16sq.ft, just a thought


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 25, 2011)

zem said:


> 5000lumens/sq.ft is the minimum requirement to flower, a high efficiency 600 should cover a 16sq.ft, just a thought


Think again. A 600 will produce poor bud density around the edges of a 4x4 tray. A 1000 is the right choice for that large a tray.


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## jimbizzzale67123 (Feb 25, 2011)

Fuck how did I miss this, That was funny. I didnt know about the carbs, I always see that picture in Jorge's Bible about the 20% larger from using molasses. I just Bought General Hydroponics FloraNecter are you saying I just wasted 25 bucks?


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 25, 2011)

jimbizzzale67123 said:


> Fuck how did I miss this, That was funny. I didnt know about the carbs, I always see that picture in Jorge's Bible about the 20% larger from using molasses. I just Bought General Hydroponics FloraNecter are you saying I just wasted 25 bucks?


With all due respect to Jorge (and that's quite a lot), sugars have no place in hydroponic systems. Vascular plants can't eat them. Sugars may have some use in soil-based cultivation, where microbes which break down organic matter into N, P & K may benefit from application of them. However, in an inorganic-based hydro system, sugars do only one thing- attract pests, including moulds & fungi. The only living thing that should be in an inorganic cannabis hydro op is cannabis plants. 

So yeah, I think you've just done your $25. Get a refund if you can... or put the stuff on your veggie patch out the back.


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## iflylow (Feb 25, 2011)

Long time lurker but it was worth it for me to come out and post just to say thank you Al. I won't say specifically what for but I think you deserve the kudos.


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## kevin (Feb 25, 2011)

you're only trying to bump up your post count.



iflylow said:


> Long time lurker but it was worth it for me to come out and post just to say thank you Al. I won't say specifically what for but I think you deserve the kudos.


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## MediMary (Feb 25, 2011)

I dunno, he joined july of last year, maybe he just wanted to give al kudos, Al def deserves it,


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 25, 2011)

iflylow said:


> Long time lurker but it was worth it for me to come out and post just to say thank you Al. I won't say specifically what for but I think you deserve the kudos.


 Thanks. 



kevin said:


> you're only trying to bump up your post count.


There's easier ways to bump one's post count than being nice to me- which I truly do appreciate, BTW.



MediMary said:


> I dunno, he joined july of last year, maybe he just wanted to give al kudos, Al def deserves it,


Thanks, MM.


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## kevin (Feb 25, 2011)

i was poking fun for 2 post in 7 months. this person would be the last one that could be acused of running up post count. 



kevin said:


> you're only trying to bump up your post count.


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## jimbizzzale67123 (Feb 25, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> With all due respect to Jorge (and that's quite a lot), sugars have no place in hydroponic systems. Vascular plants can't eat them. Sugars may have some use in soil-based cultivation, where microbes which break down organic matter into N, P & K may benefit from application of them. However, in an inorganic-based hydro system, sugars do only one thing- attract pests, including moulds & fungi. The only living thing that should be in an inorganic cannabis hydro op is cannabis plants.
> 
> So yeah, I think you've just done your $25. Get a refund if you can... or put the stuff on your veggie patch out the back.


I already opened it too see if it smelt like Pineapple. It didn't


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

Pineapple! A cannabis plant's natural food, right?


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 26, 2011)

hey al got a issue or a buddy does I post this aready in another thread but now im calling out the big guns.

the issue is fogging/milky/merky water after 2 rom a fresh res change.
water temp is 69-70
nutes are NSR green leaves grow/bloom/boost with H202 at 7ml per gal
tank has aire stones running 24/7
res system is drain to waist no recovery
there are no light lleks into the res tank
res size is 55 gal trash can 

K so simple elimination to try to stop this has gone in steps and each step started
with a fresh res change and a crazy cleaning of everything.

step #1 remove the boast to eliminate the vitaimins that could react to the H202/air stone 
2 days later blame theres a problem

step #2 was to clean the system again and do a res change
2 days later blame problem again

step #3 is going to be remove the H202

step #4 and if it comes to it remove the air stones

AL me and my buddy are completely lost with this issue he has 5 res tanks
and this res tank is the only one that is drain to waist and the ones that
are recycle dont do it and the formulas are the same between the 5


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## tat2ue (Feb 26, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Think again. A 600 will produce poor bud density around the edges of a 4x4 tray. A 1000 is the right choice for that large a tray.


Very true. When I upgraded my flower room from 1000w mag/core ballast to Quantum 600w digitals I had to hang 3 x 600w in cool tubes over each 4x8 SOG flood table to achieve the best/better light and lumen coverage than the 2 x 1000w's I had. Actually, using the three 600's gave me better results over two 1000's and saved a little on electric using 1800 total watts as opposed to 2000w. And since I run two 4x8 flood tables in my flower room, using six 600w over them instead of my 4 x 1000w...I saved a total of 400w's which lets me run a 400w in my veg/mother room basically for free.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey al got a issue or a buddy does I post this aready in another thread but now im calling out the big guns.
> 
> the issue is fogging/milky/merky water after 2 rom a fresh res change.


I don't understand "after 2 rom a fresh res change."

I am not generally a spelling/grammar pedant, but if I have to guess to divine what you mean, you're not helping me help you. 



hellraizer30 said:


> water temp is 69-70
> nutes are NSR green leaves grow/bloom/boost with H202 at 7ml per gal
> tank has aire stones running 24/7
> res system is drain to waist no recovery
> ...


I've never heard of "NSR green leaves" before. Is this an organic nutrient? If so, this could be reacting with the H2O2. This will have the effect of breaking all the H2O2 down into H2O + O, leaving nothing to attack pathogens. Vitamins (unnecessary anyway) should not react with H2O2, but there may be other organic ingredients in this magic sauce which could be reacting with the H2O2. My final guess is there's something about the plastic in the container being used as a res tank which is causing the cloudiness. Removing the H2O2 and/or airstones is not a good idea. 



tat2ue said:


> Very true. When I upgraded my flower room from 1000w mag/core ballast to Quantum 600w digitals I had to hang 3 x 600w in cool tubes over each 4x8 SOG flood table to achieve the best/better light and lumen coverage than the 2 x 1000w's I had. Actually, using the three 600's gave me better results over two 1000's and saved a little on electric using 1800 total watts as opposed to 2000w. And since I run two 4x8 flood tables in my flower room, using six 600w over them instead of my 4 x 1000w...I saved a total of 400w's which lets me run a 400w in my veg/mother room basically for free.


While electronic ballasts don't have eddy current losses as do inductive ballasts, there is still some power consumption in the electronic ballast. This is a result of resistances in the regulation circuitry. The upshot is that 600W electronic ballast will draw about 660W from the AC mains. A 1000 on an inductive ballast will draw about 1080W. Your three 600s on electronic ballasts are drawing about 1980W vs. 2160W for a pair of 1000s on inductive ballasts. Yes, you're saving about 180W, but at the same time, sacrificing some luminous intensity. However, with three 600s, you can get the plants closer to the light source (on average). Cooltubes allow a 1000 to be just as near the plants as a 600. A 1000HPS typically will deliver 145,000 lumens while a typical 600 will deliver about 90,000. The buds closest to the 1000s will develop better density than those nearest the 600s. You can even things up a bit in the 2x 1000 scenario by moving the plants around a couple of times during flowering. 

Incidentally, a 400HPS on an inductive ballast will draw about 435W from AC mains, so your use of 3x 600 on electronic ballasts, while reducing flowering power consumption by 180W, isn't _quite_ covering the operating cost of the 400 doing your mother vegging. Moreover, the 400 is running 18-24h/day and your flowering lighting is only running 12h/day. 

At the end of the day, it's 6 of one & half a dozen of the other.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 26, 2011)

sorry folks not sure what this thread is about now please forgive me, i see al b here and rememberd my cuttings question 
AL B. in your rockwool sticky, it looked like you were putting cuttings directly into upside down 3 inch "transplanting cubes" i have never seen anyone do it like that before is there any advantage to that, rather than using the 1 or 2 inch seed cubes that then insert into the correct transplanting cubes (big hole/small hole) once roots show through the seed cubes


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> sorry folks not sure what this thread is about now please forgive me, i see al b here and rememberd my cuttings question
> AL B. in your rockwool sticky, it looked like you were putting cuttings directly into upside down 3 inch "transplanting cubes" i have never seen anyone do it like that before is there any advantage to that, rather than using the 1 or 2 inch seed cubes that then insert into the correct transplanting cubes (big hole/small hole) once roots show through the seed cubes


Please go back and review the cloning thread. All specifications are detailed. In short, I use 40mm plastic-wrapped RW cubes for cloning. The clones in 40mm cubes, once rooted, are then planted into 175mm dia pots of Fytocell (with 25mm of RW floc packed into the bottoms of the pots to keep Fytocell crumbs from escaping the drain holes).


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 26, 2011)

sorry AL for the grammer, runs is what I thought I said lol, so you think the trash can plastic/pvc type res could cause this?
and I research that line of nutes and cant come up with a answer to organic or non organic theres just very lttle info on it out there.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> sorry AL for the grammer, runs is what I thought I said lol, so you think the trash can plastic/pvc type res could cause this?
> and I research that line of nutes and cant come up with a answer to organic or non organic theres just very lttle info on it out there.


No, I don't think the plastic in the trash can is causing the problem- it's really just a last ditch guess to explain what's happening- it's one of the few remaining variables.

If you can't find out if the nutes are organic or not, mix up a small amount of nute solution (about a litre) and add some H2O2 to it. If it fizzes, the nutes are organic. If you do determine that the nutes are organic, change to a good quality inorganic nutrient.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 26, 2011)

sorry AL B its been a while since i seen the larger cubes 10cm (4 inch) from the picture in your rockwool sticky they look huge i normaly use the 2.5cm (one inch) cubes once roots show out the bottom of those 1 inch seed cubes i place them in the larger 7.5 cm transplanting cubes .. and place them on the nft system .. 

i always try to use as little rockwool as possible as i only realy use it to give the plants a base to sit on so i go for the 3inch transplanting cubes 

your picture looked like you are using the transplanting cubes to root the clones instead of the seed cubes that was my only query 
as those larger blocks absorb much more water and take longer for the roots to show through than the much smaller 1 inch (2.5cm) cubes i wonderd why you would do that, but if you are using the seed cubes or feel you dont need them my mistake


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> sorry AL B its been a while since i seen the larger cubes 10cm (4 inch) from the picture in your rockwool sticky they look huge i normaly use the 2.5cm (one inch) cubes once roots show out the bottom of those 1 inch seed cubes i place them in the larger 7.5 cm transplanting cubes .. and place them on the nft system ..
> 
> i always try to use as little rockwool as possible as i only realy use it to give the plants a base to sit on so i go for the 3inch transplanting cubes
> 
> ...


I use 40mm cubes because 25mm cubes are too prone to drying out unexpectedly. My cubes don't look so small when you consider taht the clones I cut are about 8-9" tall on average.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 26, 2011)

yeh that makes sense , those juicy thick steams on your clones would split the 1inch cubes in half most likely they do that with some of my clones which are smaller than yours i wrap a rubber band round them to keep the little cube together 

i normaly take much smaller cuttings about 4 inch or so, i have taken larger cuttings 8-9 inch but found that after a few weeks of veg the smaller 4 inch cuttings had caught up with the larger ones in size anyway 
well thanks for clearing that point up AL B .. peace to you


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 26, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, I don't think the plastic in the trash can is causing the problem- it's really just a last ditch guess to explain what's happening- it's one of the few remaining variables.
> 
> If you can't find out if the nutes are organic or not, mix up a small amount of nute solution (about a litre) and add some H2O2 to it. If it fizzes, the nutes are organic. If you do determine that the nutes are organic, change to a good quality inorganic nutrient.


ok will do. didnt know that was a way of finding out the different too. thanks AL


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> yeh that makes sense , those juicy thick steams on your clones would split the 1inch cubes in half most likely they do that with some of my clones which are smaller than yours i wrap a rubber band round them to keep the little cube together


Don't put a rubber band around RW cubes. This will crush the material and remove all the airspaces from it. Use larger cubes. The 40mm cubes are ideal. Larger ones tend to stay wet too long and cause stem rot.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 26, 2011)

its not often i put a band round the cube although ive had no issues when doing so i would imagine you would have to wrap the band round extreemly tight to smash plant materal and restrict air supply. have no fear i wouldnt do such a silly thing 

the smaller cubes suit me fine i am able to see roots poping out of the bottom of the smaller cubes in around 9 -12 days, i dont even like using the larger 2 inch cubes, they are too big, 

using the transplanting blocks to root clones in would take up way too much propagator space, i havent had issues with the 1inch cubes drying out .. myself

taking cuttings its a very simple process for me, 
i take the cuttings from the mother plants make the final cut under water to avoid air bubbles , dip them in clonex, pop them in a 1 inch wet seed cube put them in the wet propagator .. (closed vents) leave them for 3 days, then open the vents every once in a while, and spray them occasionaly with water only , making sure the humidity is kept high, i replace the water every 2-3 days, after 9-12 days they root .. 

this method has worked for me for about 15 years .. i do like to keep things as simple as i posibly can .. 

i do recall when i first started i followed the rule book to the letter i would ph the rockwool first and "condition" it with formlex or some other condition agent to lower the ph of the rockwool.and add some nurtrients i would even spray my cuttings with nutriants and even apply some antifungal just incase, but with experance and a little lazyness i later found all this to be unnecessary

if your 1 inch cubes were drying out unexpectedly , it perhaps might of been becuase your propagator vents were open for too long, .. if anything i find they can stay too wet and i will gently squeeze excess water out of the bottom of them, making sure not to smash plant materal when squeezing ofcourse


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 26, 2011)

well AL I me and my buddy tried it and no fiz so I to a pure organic he had laying around and we tryed it in that and no fiz so im confused?


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> its not often i put a band round the cube although ive had no issues when doing so i would imagine you would have to wrap the band round extreemly tight to smash plant materal and restrict air supply. have no fear i wouldnt do such a silly thing


You'd be surprised how little force it takes to deform RW cubes. However...



> the smaller cubes suit me fine i am able to see roots poping out of the bottom of the smaller cubes in around 9 -12 days, i dont even like using the larger 2 inch cubes, they are too big,


If you're getting roots in no more than about 10 days, it's working OK. I frequently get roots out of the bottoms of 40mm cubes in 5-6 days.



> using the transplanting blocks to root clones in would take up way too much propagator space, i havent had issues with the 1inch cubes drying out .. myself


OK. 



> taking cuttings its a very simple process for me,
> i take the cuttings from the mother plants make the final cut under water to avoid air bubbles , dip them in clonex, pop them in a 1 inch wet seed cube put them in the wet propagator .. (closed vents) leave them for 3 days, then open the vents every once in a while, and spray them occasionaly with water only , making sure the humidity is kept high, i replace the water every 2-3 days, after 9-12 days they root ..


Cutting stems under water isn't necessary. Some old-school florists have used that technique for cut flowers (knowing of course that they're not trying to get cut flowers to set root), but unless the water is completely sterile, it can be a problem when propagating by cuttings. 

I prefer to cut stems with a scalpel that has been sterilised with methylated spirit (aka denatured alcohol), which is then flamed off with a candle. Any alcohol left on the blade will damage capillaries in the cutting and will cause leaves to go crispy dry in about 8-12h. 

I also don't use humidomes nor mist clones. If there's enough water uptake through the stem cut, it's not necessary. If clones wilt, then the stem cut was not sterile or the medium is being kept too wet and in either case, the stem tip has rotted. Rotten tissue won't conduct water up the stem and the cutting will wilt. Upside is you can recut the stem and try again with a fresh cube.

I generally recommend against use of gel-type cloning aids. First, gels can harbour pathogens between doing batches of cuttings if stems are dipped into the main container instead of into a small, separate container that a small amount of gel has been decanted into- excess gel that has had stems dipped into it should be discarded. The main container of gel should be refrigerated once opened. Second, gels tend to rinse off after the clones have been watered a few times, while rooting powders form a paste which tends to stay put, even after numerous waterings,. 



> this method has worked for me for about 15 years .. i do like to keep things as simple as i posibly can ..
> 
> i do recall when i first started i followed the rule book to the letter i would ph the rockwool first and "condition" it with formlex or some other condition agent to lower the ph of the rockwool.and add some nurtrients i would even spray my cuttings with nutriants and even apply some antifungal just incase, but with experance and a little lazyness i later found all this to be unnecessary


Quite so. Nothing other than soaking the cubes for 24h in plain water is really necessary.


> if your 1 inch cubes were drying out unexpectedly , it perhaps might of been becuase your propagator vents were open for too long, .. if anything i find they can stay too wet and i will gently squeeze excess water out of the bottom of them, making sure not to smash plant materal when squeezing ofcourse


I don't use 'propagators,' never have- and RW cubes should never, ever be squeezed, even gently.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> well AL I me and my buddy tried it and no fiz so I to a pure organic he had laying around and we tryed it in that and no fiz so im confused?


heh, the 'pure organic' wasn't. If a nutrient is truly organically sourced, it'll fizz when H2O2 is added.


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 26, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> heh, the 'pure organic' wasn't. If a nutrient is truly organically sourced, it'll fizz when H2O2 is added.


ok well I guess we will just run the process of elimination and if there aint a way to stop it then out goes the NSR. you got any clue why 
a recycleing system doent cause this? becouse hes running both types and only the drain to waist does it.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 26, 2011)

Well, now you know why I suggested the plastic trash can might be a problem! It's one of the few variables between the system that has problems and the ones that don't. 

Bear in mind that even a drain to waste system's rez tank needs to be dosed with H2O2, 50% grade @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days.


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## zem (Feb 26, 2011)

hellraizer i've had murky water before, it happened when i used h2o2 with recycled grorocks that were not well flushed. i found a solution to it by flushing with water and h2o2 then dumping res and flushing again until it was clear again. i think it's the h2o2 breaking dead matter and stuff in your medium which is a good thing itself. just need to flush it better next time. hope this helps


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2011)

zem, the system he's having a problem with is a run-to-waste, not recirculating system.


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## zem (Feb 27, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> zem, the system he's having a problem with is a run-to-waste, not recirculating system.


right Al, didn't pick up on it, sounds strange, could be something something stuck on the res or something as you said. anyway i gota Q of myself i want to throw in here

i always preferred flood/drain better than top feeding, but for the sake of practicality, it would be cool if i could do a top feeding system and still have similar results as flood/drain. do you think top feeding could give as good results as flood/drain? i always liked the how the drain sucks in fresh air every time i water, i guess nothing can replace this... what do you think? thanks Al


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2011)

There's several watering methods that perform better than flood systems. Aeroponics & NFT can get quite a lot more oxygen to the roots. However, aero systems are a pain in the ass to maintain and NFT systems sacrifice plant mobility. Flood systems are stupidly simple to set up and maintain and are highly reliable due to that simplicity. If you can't grow dope in a flood system, you can't grow dope.


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## zem (Feb 27, 2011)

hey Al i get what you're saying, i grew using flood/drain and DWC and i got great results, just that in my next setup, it will be much simpler to have a top feeding system because i'm planning to go vertical and having them in poles is simpler than having flood/drain trays at different heights, thats why i wanted to know if a top feeding system can perform equally or similarly to a flood/drain...


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2011)

Top feeding systems are generally known as drip systems. These use dripper aperture heads that have a tendency to clog with nute salts. 

Vertical gardens are ambitious. And complex. 

Lemme tell ya something about growing dope: it's a hell of a lot of fun for a few years... then it becomes work. There will come a day when you just don't want to work so hard. Simple systems, without a lot of plumbing and hoohah to maintain and clean, will serve you better in the long run.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 27, 2011)

i think we will have to agree to disagree on some points AL B there is nothing wrong with squeezing rockwool gently to relese some of the water 

the 40mm (1.5 inch") blocks you speak of, dont seem to be availble here, is it possibe you have made a mistake on the size of these blocks ?

the plastic coverd grow blocks your are rooting cuttings in, look like 3inch 7.5cm 75mm transplanting cubes to me as i said i root cuttings in 1inch seed cubes, your blocks are many times bigger than that, from the picture the look like 3inch transplanting blocks turned upside down as the correct side has a hole in them for the seed cube to be placed 

i agree its not nessecery to make the final cut under water, i try to do it with most but do forget sometimes, if you read the back of the clonex bottle it still advises to do that, even says to put them in hot water too, i guess i still do it just incase but you are right on that point as i have found myself when i havent botherd to do it, the cuttings are fine 

i guess its also possible they have differnt sizes of cubes where you are 
i can remember long ago buying the rockwool slabs and cutting my own blocks rockwool isnt the nicest stuff to handle its ok when wet, so i didnt keep that up for long 

roots showing in 6 days is great, you must have some eary rooting strains, ive noticed aeroponic cloners and bubbleponic cloners are giving roots around the 7-8 day mark, so you must be doing something right, 

i dont need cuttings so fast, as i like to harvest around 8-9 weeks it takes 4 weeks of growth of the rooted cuttings to be large/mature enough to give new cuttings so 2 weeks is a good time for me or my mother plants end up needing a fair bit of pruning to keep small enough for when i need cuttings for the next harvest
if you can see roots through those huge blocks in 6 days, you perhaps could see roots through the much smaller 1inch seed cubes in maybe 4 days if you could find a way of keeping them from unexpectedly drying out


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> i think we will have to agree to disagree on some points AL B there is nothing wrong with squeezing rockwool gently to relese some of the water


That's like agreeing to disagree on whether or not gravity works. Squeezing RW cubes collapses the airspaces in the RW. It's a bad practise that will contribute to poor rooting performance. You're absolutely entitled to do it wrong if you want, but it's still wrong.



> the 40mm (1.5 inch") blocks you speak of, dont seem to be availble here, is it possibe you have made a mistake on the size of these blocks ?


No, it's not possible. They're 40mm, mfr is Grodan. 





> the plastic coverd grow blocks your are rooting cuttings in, look like 3inch 7.5cm 75mm transplanting cubes to me as i said i root cuttings in 1inch seed cubes, your blocks are many times bigger than that, from the picture the look like 3inch transplanting blocks turned upside down as the correct side has a hole in them for the seed cube to be placed


Wrong again. They are not 75mm. My cubes are 40mm. 





> i agree its not nessecery to make the final cut under water, i try to do it with most but do forget sometimes, if you read the back of the clonex bottle it still advises to do that, even says to put them in hot water too, i guess i still do it just incase but you are right on that point as i have found myself when i havent botherd to do it, the cuttings are fine


I don't have a bottle of Clonex to refer to, but it'd be bad advice if it is so given. Cutting underwater is a poor practise- unnecessary and can cause problems. You can do it if you like but it's something no-one else should emulate. 

HOT WATER? What rubbish. This would have the effect of cooking the tissue and collapsing the capillaries in the stem. Patently bad advice. This would be a really good way to cause poor rooting performance, notably as a way to kill stem tip tissue and cause tip rot and overall wilt. 



> i guess its also possible they have differnt sizes of cubes where you are




Well, I am SO glad you think it's possible. xD



> roots showing in 6 days is great, you must have some eary rooting strains, ive noticed aeroponic cloners and bubbleponic cloners are giving roots around the 7-8 day mark, so you must be doing something right,


I am so pleased you think I must be doing something right. Because that's important to me. No, really. It is. 



> i dont need cuttings so fast, as i like to harvest around 8-9 weeks


I harvest at 8 wks. I have 4 trays in the flowering area, plants stay in each tray for 2 wks. I harvest every 2 wks. Naturally, that means I have a tray cleared and ready to fill every 2 wks. This means that I need to have a batch of cuttings ready to go in every 2 wks. 



> it takes 4 weeks of growth of the rooted cuttings to be large/mature enough to give new cuttings so 2 weeks is a good time for me or my mother plants end up needing a fair bit of pruning to keep small enough for when i need cuttings for the next harvest


Wait... you're taking cuttings off of the clones you just rooted? *boggle* 

Yes, mother plants SHOULD be cut back hard with every batch of clones. See the link to my thread about cloning in my signature. Mums will recover to the point of being ready to deliver more clones in 12-14 days, with lots of excess material



> if you can see roots through those huge blocks in 6 days, you perhaps could see roots through the much smaller 1inch seed cubes in maybe 4 days if you could find a way of keeping them from unexpectedly drying out


What huge blocks? Mine are 40mm. 



25mm seedling cubes are for seedlings, not cloning. 

I think you may be well on your way to being a w33d b4R0n.


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## skunkd0c (Feb 27, 2011)

AL B you have some very ridgid fixed ideas and opinions there .. what becomes harmful is when one mistakes his own opinion as fact .. 

your tone seems to have become hostile, thats quite sad. you seem to want to nit pick over a rather silly point .. 
why is this,?

perhaps you could show me a plant that was damaged because someone squeezed a rockwool cube ? 

all the 10s of thousands of cuttings sitting in 1inch rockwool cubes around the world , well i guess they just dont exsist , becuase you say so ?

i like the picture of your transplanting cube, hense its name, its for transplanting seeds or cuttings into that is why it has the plastic round it as its a block that can sit stright on a system but what would i know, i have only been buying them and using them for about 15 years

dam little fella get over yourself . if only my colas were as big as your ego 

and all those plants i have grown, well i guess they never grew right, because YOU SAY SO 

*Wait... you're taking cuttings off of the clones you just rooted? *boggle* <<< look at this comment of yours absolutley stupid statement 

perhaps you should learn to read my comments correctly, but instead you rush in with your "ego" lol

read again, i said i only need 4 weeks of growth for my clones once they have rooted before they are large enough to give clones themselves .. now thats not rocket science to understand .. but when one is blinded buy his own ego he cant see what is directly infront of him i guess 
*
oh look you have a little link let me click it! w33d b4r0n AL B im trying not to laugh now
i have been trying to get away from the irc n yahoo kiddies who insist on replacing letters with numbers because someone told them it was 1337 10 years ago .. that kind of ebonics doesnt impress me anymore 
AL B i think you may well be on the way to becoming an asshat, ahh dam its too late lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 27, 2011)

I'd be nicer if you were smarter. 

Still think I use 75mm cubes? xD


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## skunkd0c (Feb 27, 2011)

do you still think squeezing rockwool damages plants, ? 
do you still think 1 inch cubes are not for cuttings. ?
sorry to correct you AL B . in time your ego will learn to live with it lol 

oh sorry ill type it so you can understand it, j00 455#47 lol


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## infinitescrog (Feb 27, 2011)

Hey Al, awesome to have a pro to bounce stuff off of, thanks man! I was wondering the negative effects of a low Relative humidity, other than the plant consuming more water. I am running a 2L Hempy SoG system filling the reservoir once a day in flower. From where the hempy hole is located, I'd estimate the reservoir at ~500mL for each plant. They seem to be doing great at 3 weeks into flower but I am wondering if a low RH would have negative impacts, because I am exchanging air rapidly with ~350CFM in a ~60 cubic foot flower chamber. It is attached to a 600w HPS in a cooltube.

The only problem I have so far is that one clone (different strain than the rest) has one fan near the top that is all wilted down but it is still green and uncracked. Feels rather dry to the touch. Just want to try to head off any problems before they start. I am getting a hygrometer in a couple days, I've had several successful harvests without one, but want to improve.

Thanks for any insight!


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 27, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> do you still think squeezing rockwool damages plants, ?
> do you still think 1 inch cubes are not for cuttings. ?
> sorry to correct you AL B . in time your ego will learn to live with it lol
> 
> oh sorry ill type it so you can understand it, j00 455#47 lol


dam man chill AL b the man and his methods are sound no reason to continue this just move on!!


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## zem (Feb 28, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Top feeding systems are generally known as drip systems. These use dripper aperture heads that have a tendency to clog with nute salts.
> 
> Vertical gardens are ambitious. And complex.
> 
> Lemme tell ya something about growing dope: it's a hell of a lot of fun for a few years... then it becomes work. There will come a day when you just don't want to work so hard. Simple systems, without a lot of plumbing and hoohah to maintain and clean, will serve you better in the long run.


yeah it's been more than a few years of growing for me, like 7-8... i don't mind work to setup, but i do mind maintenance work, that's why i want to run a single pump in vertial poles. the drippers are no problem, aero sprayers are more of a trouble. vertical can be done with low maintenance, but it is harder to setup initially. i plan on having 4 plastic pipes standing like poles with plants growing out of them and a light hanging in the middle drippers on top of pipes. maintenance would be the same as maintaining a regular system, just empty the pipes, clean refill and grow on. i have always asked myself why the hell would someone top feed when flood/drain is simpler to setup and airs better the roots, until this plan came up. if i wanted to flood/drain a vertical system i will have to add several pumps each for a level of plants, which i don't want to do. i'm leaning more to think that the difference in plant growth rate between top feeding and flood/drain is negligible... just unsure yet.....


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## doniawon (Feb 28, 2011)

Al your "ego" is deserved and well respected. I've learned more from you than anyone in many years. thanks again. If your only questionable method is to squeeze or not to squeeze, in all the wealth of info you supply us big fuggin deal... You spend all that time reading and replying with great answers im sure your just tired of the bull shiz. Agree to disagree and remain humble, no need to bash on a legend. Were not rippin through there sticky.


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## zem (Feb 28, 2011)

hey skunk i'm not Al's advocate here, but i gota say, YES, squeezing rockwool damages root growth because you're basically squeezing the air out of the cube making it less airy. it's NOT a matter of opinion, and in fact i can see why Al can sound a bit defensive when he hears someone insist on this bullshit


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## TruenoAE86coupe (Feb 28, 2011)

But Al, look at skunkd0c's avatar, what would u do to have an amazing looking plant like that in your garden. LoL.
Anyhow, skunk you really have no room to talk here like this, this thread is from a very knowledgeable experienced gardener sharing his "secrets" with us, really no reason to talk shit here, take what you want from it, rep him and thank him for the help and discard anything you do no believe in, not keep asking him "*do you still think squeezing rockwool damages plants, ? 
do you still think 1 inch cubes are not for cuttings. ?" He did not say that squeezing the rockwool damages the plant, he said it damages the ROCKWOOL, and if he did squeeze it he wouldn't have rooted clones in 6 days. He said he does not use the 1 inch (25 mm) for cuttings, because his cuttings are so big he will break a 25mm cube.
If you really want to compare your grow to Al's you really need to have pictures and proof that you can even compare to being on the same level as him. And at that point you will only at best be compared to Al, there is no one more respected/trusted on this site period. 
Al was decent enough to come back after a long absence just to answer our questions, so please do not fuck this up for us, as we would like to tap this resource as long as possible, as he has good theory with reasons to back everything up. 
His ego as mentioned once before is well deserved, and he is allowed to flaunt it when he wants/needs to. 
Finally you say that he is a child, but if you really read this thread, then your stupid .02 most of us would have been pretty pissed off at you, in fact me and my wife sat here and laughed through not only your stupid post, but Al's response. 
Al has posted more in this one thread then you have at all, so based simply on that, i am going to continue to take all from this i can, and make it a point to ignore ALL skunkd0c posts. 

*


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## Bob Smith (Feb 28, 2011)

zem said:


> hey skunk i'm not Al's advocate here, but i gota say, YES, squeezing rockwool damages root growth because you're basically squeezing the air out of the cube making it less airy. it's NOT a matter of opinion, and in fact i can see why Al can sound a bit defensive when he hears someone insist on this bullshit


Zem, setting up a vertical system is certainly more complex than a simple E&F setup, but it's not THAT much harder (but with any new endeavor, some planning is a REALLY good idea) - as you've said correctly, yes, there's lots more initial setup, but I only check on my plants two or three times a week, so that means automating everything I can.

Had some downtime so actually converted my octagon from LP aero/NFT to full on HP aero (100-125PSI) for shits and giggles.

Al, good to see you back and I hope everything is okay with the situation you had to deal with a couple of weeks ago.


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## zem (Feb 28, 2011)

Bob Smith said:


> Zem, setting up a vertical system is certainly more complex than a simple E&F setup, but it's not THAT much harder (but with any new endeavor, some planning is a REALLY good idea) - as you've said correctly, yes, there's lots more initial setup, but I only check on my plants two or three times a week, so that means automating everything I can.
> 
> Had some downtime so actually converted my octagon from LP aero/NFT to full on HP aero (100-125PSI) for shits and giggles.
> 
> ...


 thanks for this helpful post! i'm not going to do aero for sure, i like low energy consumption and maintenance, dont even want to do several pumps, that's why i was considering pipes standing like poles with top feeding... did you ever try this?


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## Bob Smith (Feb 28, 2011)

Posts #182 and #186 in this thread have some good info for you.

BTW, HP aero uses less energy than any other form of growing except handwatering........my 100 watt pump runs for 30 seconds every twelve hours.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2011)

infinitescrog said:


> Hey Al, awesome to have a pro to bounce stuff off of, thanks man! I was wondering the negative effects of a low Relative humidity, other than the plant consuming more water.


 Low RH will indeed cause higher transpiration- not a real problem. However, if you're unfortunate enough to get some spider mites, low RH will increase their reproduction rate significantly. 



> I am running a 2L Hempy SoG system filling the reservoir once a day in flower. From where the hempy hole is located, I'd estimate the reservoir at ~500mL for each plant. They seem to be doing great at 3 weeks into flower but I am wondering if a low RH would have negative impacts, because I am exchanging air rapidly with ~350CFM in a ~60 cubic foot flower chamber. It is attached to a 600w HPS in a cooltube.


 Should be OK in general, but I do have problems with the Hempy concept. Allows roots to sit in stagnant water, which can (and almost surely will) cause problems. 



> The only problem I have so far is that one clone (different strain than the rest) has one fan near the top that is all wilted down but it is still green and uncracked. Feels rather dry to the touch. Just want to try to head off any problems before they start. I am getting a hygrometer in a couple days, I've had several successful harvests without one, but want to improve.


 If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Getting as much diagnostic equipment in your op as possible is always worth doing. 



hellraizer30 said:


> dam man chill AL b the man and his methods are sound no reason to continue this just move on!!


 That troll is now on my ignore list, I really don't care what it says- because I don't see it.

...but dipping stems in hot water is DEFINITELY going to be some future Stoney McDoper material. 



zem said:


> yeah it's been more than a few years of growing for me, like 7-8... i don't mind work to setup, but i do mind maintenance work, that's why i want to run a single pump in vertial poles. the drippers are no problem, aero sprayers are more of a trouble. vertical can be done with low maintenance, but it is harder to setup initially. i plan on having 4 plastic pipes standing like poles with plants growing out of them and a light hanging in the middle drippers on top of pipes. maintenance would be the same as maintaining a regular system, just empty the pipes, clean refill and grow on. i have always asked myself why the hell would someone top feed when flood/drain is simpler to setup and airs better the roots, until this plan came up. if i wanted to flood/drain a vertical system i will have to add several pumps each for a level of plants, which i don't want to do. i'm leaning more to think that the difference in plant growth rate between top feeding and flood/drain is negligible... just unsure yet.....


 I don't think the growth rate will be much different, but I have my worries about maintaining the system. If you have the floorspace to run a simple flood tray system, I'd do it that way.



doniawon said:


> Al your "ego" is deserved and well respected. I've learned more from you than anyone in many years. thanks again. If your only questionable method is to squeeze or not to squeeze, in all the wealth of info you supply us big fuggin deal... You spend all that time reading and replying with great answers im sure your just tired of the bull shiz. Agree to disagree and remain humble, no need to bash on a legend. Were not rippin through there sticky.


 When someone loses an argument with me, it's typical for them to attack me instead of the facts. Going _ad hominem_ is simple proof that the crank can't win the dispute with knowledge. Trolls can use whatever incorrect practises they like; just as long as everyone else knows not to replicate the error, which appears to be the case here. 

Squeezing rockwool cubes is bad practise every single time. It removes airspaces from the material and will contribute to poor/slow rooting performance, if not outright failure. 



zem said:


> hey skunk i'm not Al's advocate here, but i gota say, YES, squeezing rockwool damages root growth because you're basically squeezing the air out of the cube making it less airy. it's NOT a matter of opinion, and in fact i can see why Al can sound a bit defensive when he hears someone insist on this bullshit


 I don't mind helping out inexperienced growers after they've made a mistake. However, someone who _claims_ to have experience growing should know better. It's always obvious to me when someone who claims to have 15 years experience growing has more like 15 minutes. If someone wants to use poor practises and call my advice on doing it the right way some sort of ego trip, you must realise that it's no skin off my nose. The person paying for using incorrect practises is the person getting the shithouse results, not me. 



TruenoAE86coupe said:


> But Al, look at skunkd0c's avatar, what would u do to have an amazing looking plant like that in your garden. LoL.
> Anyhow, skunk you really have no room to talk here like this, this thread is from a very knowledgeable experienced gardener sharing his "secrets" with us, really no reason to talk shit here, take what you want from it, rep him and thank him for the help and discard anything you do no believe in, not keep asking him "*do you still think squeezing rockwool damages plants, ?
> do you still think 1 inch cubes are not for cuttings. ?" He did not say that squeezing the rockwool damages the plant, he said it damages the ROCKWOOL, and if he did squeeze it he wouldn't have rooted clones in 6 days. He said he does not use the 1 inch (25 mm) for cuttings, because his cuttings are so big he will break a 25mm cube.
> If you really want to compare your grow to Al's you really need to have pictures and proof that you can even compare to being on the same level as him. And at that point you will only at best be compared to Al, there is no one more respected/trusted on this site period.
> ...


Yeah. All that. 



Bob Smith said:


> Zem, setting up a vertical system is certainly more complex than a simple E&F setup, but it's not THAT much harder (but with any new endeavor, some planning is a REALLY good idea) - as you've said correctly, yes, there's lots more initial setup, but I only check on my plants two or three times a week, so that means automating everything I can.
> 
> Had some downtime so actually converted my octagon from LP aero/NFT to full on HP aero (100-125PSI) for shits and giggles.
> 
> ...


I don't have any fundamental opposition to novel growing methods like this. They'll certainly work. I rather like the vertical scheme as regards the absence of a reflector, since you lose light intensity by bouncing light off of one. However, I DO have a fundamental opposition to working hard and spending money. Constructing a system like this with a forest of PVC pipe takes time, money & effort and maintaining it would be a pain. There's no way to completely clean a system like this short of fully disassembling it. In the past, I've commented to Bob that he deserves a metric fucktonne of weed out of this system for all the work he has in it.


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## hellraizer30 (Feb 28, 2011)

well done..........................


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## pdillo (Feb 28, 2011)

Howdy Al, thanks for all the great threads and info you've provided over the years, your post have totally changed the way I grow (for the better).

With you're electrical knowledge, I was curious if you had any insight on (or even heard of) *this issue* about the incompatibility of digital ballast and standard HPS bulbs? The study basically states normal HPS bulbs are designed to work with a basic magnetic 60hz ballast, an electronic ballast opperates at 20 hz or higher (from wikipedia: Electronic ballasts usually change the frequency of the power from the standard mains (e.g., 60 Hz in U.S.) frequency to 20,000 Hz or higher), and the study goes on that this incompatibility creates "acoustic resonance" that will shorten the life and ouput of the bulb. So now there are all these new products designed to provide solutions for these claims, bulbs designed specifically for electronic ballast and also electronic ballast that are suppose to operate at the lower 60hz frequency&#8230; ¿Thoughts? More reason to go magnetic? Total BS to sell even more new new-fangled devices?


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2011)

pdillo said:


> Howdy Al, thanks for all the great threads and info you've provided over the years, your post have totally changed the way I grow over the past several years (for the better).
> 
> With you're electrical knowledge, I was curious if you had any insight on (or even heard of) *this issue* about the incompatibility of digital ballast and standard HPS bulbs? The study basically states normal HPS bulbs are designed to work with a basic magnetic 60hz ballast, an electronic ballast opperates at 20 hz or higher (from wikipedia: Electronic ballasts usually change the frequency of the power from the standard mains (e.g., 60 Hz in U.S.) frequency to 20,000 Hz or higher), and the study goes on that this incompatibility creates "acoustic resonance" that will shorten the life and ouput of the bulb. So now there are all these new products to support these clames, bulbs designed specifically for electronic ballast and also electronic ballast that are suppose to operate at the lower standard frequency&#8230; ¿Thoughts? More reason to go magnetic? Total BS to sell even more new new-fangled devices?


Eye/Hortilux is a reputable maker of good quality HID lamps. If their testing indicates that acoustic resonance is a problem for HPS tubes, I'm inclined to take their word for it. 

One thing I can tell you as a result of my ~35 years as an electronics techie is that I have never seen a semiconductor junction that is as reliable as a coil of copper wire on an iron core. Inductive aka magnetic ballasts don't use significantly more power than electronic ballasts and electronic ballasts do not cause HPS lighting to generate any more luminous intensity than lamps run on magnetic ballasts. When you consider that the useful lifespan of magnetic ballasts is measured in decades and the purchase cost of magnetics is about 1/3 that for electronic ballasts, there's just no cause to buy electronic types. 

Buy a good quality magnetic ballast and it will probably be the only ballast you ever buy.


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## medicine21 (Feb 28, 2011)

Hey Al, I do rockwool cubes in a 8x4' flood and drain with a 300L rez, so these questions will draw on your past experience with rockwool before you switched to fytocell (which is not available in my area):

1. Does algae that grows on top of rockwool cubes eat nutes and raise the pH in the cube?
2. Are cube covers a good idea or is it better to just deal with the algae? - I am seeing some mold develop under the covers as they are not getting the air circulation. also have some mold on bottom of RW cubes later in flowering
3. When to water RW? - 50% saturated weight, 25%,...?
4. Can you keep RW 75% saturated at all times if your rez is well oxygenated AND you use H2O2?
5. I have some difficulty managing the ideal EC in the cube, I am guessing due to cube sometimes running dry and perhaps too much nutes in rez. I run EC 1.6 in the rez, but pull EC 3.2+ later in flowering out of the cube with a syringe. Plants don't seem to mind too much, but the salt build up concerns me, should it?


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## pdillo (Feb 28, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Eye/Hortilux is a reputable maker of good quality HID lamps. If their testing indicates that acoustic resonance is a problem for HPS tubes, I'm inclined to take their word for it.


Sure you're probably right. There is also some credibility in the fact they would stand to lose sales from that info rather than gain.

Sooo&#8230; any RIU members interested in swapping your old rusty 600w coil ballast for a super sweet shiny purple DIMMABLE (!!) Lumatek, PM me!


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## infinitescrog (Feb 28, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Should be OK in general, but I do have problems with the Hempy concept. Allows roots to sit in stagnant water, which can (and almost surely will) cause problems.
> 
> If you can't measure it, you can't manage it. Getting as much diagnostic equipment in your op as possible is always worth doing.


They drink the entire reservoir every day to 1.5 days so they arent in stagnant water for more than a day but I can see this being a problem when they aren't in flower I only have to water every 2 days, I have this sog going and I have two 5 gal. DWC vegging in a scrog going to put them in soon, and depending on results may or may not switch over to that.

And I am getting my hygrometer tomorrow!

Thanks for the advice!


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Hey Al, I do rockwool cubes in a 8x4' flood and drain with a 300L rez, so these questions will draw on your past experience with rockwool before you switched to fytocell (which is not available in my area):


 OK. 



> 1. Does algae that grows on top of rockwool cubes eat nutes and raise the pH in the cube?


 Algae does eat a small amount of your nutes, but not enough to worry about. However, it's not the algae raising the pH, it's pathogens like pythium and fusarium, which are probably present due to overwet conditions, causing the pH to jump.This is indicative of root problems. You'll probably find dead and rotting roots if you look. 



> 2. Are cube covers a good idea or is it better to just deal with the algae? - I am seeing some mold develop under the covers as they are not getting the air circulation. also have some mold on bottom of RW cubes later in flowering


 A cover of some sort that blocks direct light but allows air circ is what you need. 



> 3. When to water RW? - 50% saturated weight, 25%,...?


 Somewhere between 25% & 50%.



> 4. Can you keep RW 75% saturated at all times if your rez is well oxygenated AND you use H2O2?


 No. When RW is saturated, water won't move into it. Best to let the plant's transpiration and evaporation remove a significant portion of the water before you add more. 



> 5. I have some difficulty managing the ideal EC in the cube, I am guessing due to cube sometimes running dry and perhaps too much nutes in rez. I run EC 1.6 in the rez, but pull EC 3.2+ later in flowering out of the cube with a syringe. Plants don't seem to mind too much, but the salt build up concerns me, should it?


 1.6 EC is 1120ppm, kinda hot. 3.2EC is 2240ppm, which is well into cooked. It'd concern me a lot! 



pdillo said:


> Sure you're probably right. There is also some credibility in the fact they would stand to lose sales from that info rather than gain.
> 
> Sooo any RIU members interested in swapping your old rusty 600w coil ballast for a super sweet shiny purple DIMMABLE (!!) Lumatek, PM me!


If you have it, use it. You're unlikely to recover much of your outlay by onselling it- used ballasts don't normally have much resale value. If it blows up while still in warranty, get another one, bearing in mind that there may be a pro-rata warranty, where you may be expected to pay a portion of the replacement cost. Compare what you have to pay on the pro-rata against what you will spend on a new magnetic ballast. 

I DO shake my head when I think of the EEs at Lumatek adding the dimming feature. WHY would you want to dim a horticultural light? Mood lighting, I guess...



infinitescrog said:


> They drink the entire reservoir every day to 1.5 days so they arent in stagnant water for more than a day but I can see this being a problem when they aren't in flower I only have to water every 2 days, I have this sog going and I have two 5 gal. DWC vegging in a scrog going to put them in soon, and depending on results may or may not switch over to that.
> 
> And I am getting my hygrometer tomorrow!
> 
> Thanks for the advice!


Your plants removing a significant portion of the water in the bucket in a relatively short period of time is your only saving grace. If the plants were smaller, transpiring less water and doing so more slowly, you'd be more likely to see problems.


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## Bob Smith (Feb 28, 2011)

I've blown up a few dual arc bulbs using my digital dimmable ballasts, but regular HPS bulbs work fine on them.

The dimmable feature is nice for someone like me who can't move their lights in relation to their plants and doesn't want to shock plants coming straight from fluoro tubes to 2400 watts of light - starting them off at 50% really helps them ease into their new home.


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## jojodancer10 (Feb 28, 2011)

hay DR. Al ,just built a box hor my mom's under a 4 foot eight bulb flo. just wanted to say thanks and you were wright about everything. my 6 mom's are in hydro farm buckets. lol they took off like a bat out of hell. thanks al. i will put post pic's of my mom's before i take cuts


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## Ferredoxin (Feb 28, 2011)

Al....... Thanks for all your knowledge over your countless posts. I am usually more of the trolling type, but every now and then a question pops up that I can't find a straight answer to. I am very well versed in plant physiology and soil culture, but I am new to the hydro scene. I am still trying to pinpoint a reservoir management strategy that is effective and easy. Work smarter, not harder right? 

I dont employ your perpetual system, opting to instead grow fewer, larger plants. I have 16 grape stompers under 4 1000w HPS (4 per light) in a CAP Ebb & Gro system w/ hydroton. I am using GH nutes following the Lucas method (sort of....i am actually doing 3G/5M/15B ml/gal for the first 2 weeks of 12/12 before I take the Grow nutes out). I keep the reservoir at 40 gallons by topping off every day with fresh H2O (plants are using about 5 gallons per day right now...Day 11 of 12/12...flooding 4x per lights on and nothing in the dark). As you can imagine, my EC tails off rather quickly with each slug of H2O I add. I seem to get equally valid opinions about topping with either straight H2O or with nutrient solutions of various strength (Lucas says full strength, some say 1/2 strength, some say 1/2 strength every other day....). Either way, I would like to try to stretch out my reservoir changes to the longest interval as possible without sacrificing plant health. 

Should I aim to maintain a target EC, or allow the EC to drop over time? What is an acceptable drop? Again, the Lucas method says to drain and refill the res after 1/2 the original volume has been added back. That would mean every 4 days for me, which seems a bit much. Any guidance you offer is appreciated....thanks.


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## medicine21 (Feb 28, 2011)

Thanks for the response, Al.



Al B. Fuct said:


> Algae does eat a small amount of your nutes, but not enough to worry about. However, it's not the algae raising the pH, it's pathogens like pythium and fusarium, which are probably present due to overwet conditions, causing the pH to jump.This is indicative of root problems. You'll probably find dead and rotting roots if you look.


No root problems here. I learned my lesson of overwatering 2 crops ago and I watered every second day in 5 day veg and first 12 days flowering. The cubes got quite light at some points (around 10% saturated) for sure. It gave good roots (never wilted) but built up my EC in the cubes over time.



> A cover of some sort that blocks direct light but allows air circ is what you need.


I experimented with covers like this in side-by side without them, but I don't see a difference in the plants. Observed differences WITH the covers is no algae, higher EC, lower pH and mold later on. Not sure what else to cover with or if it's even necessary.



> 1.6 EC is 1120ppm, kinda hot. 3.2EC is 2240ppm, which is well into cooked. It'd concern me a lot!


It did concern me at first and in the past I would flush the cubes once a week, but now I am running with it and the plants don't seem to mind. I wonder if it's possible that it is build up that is not even used by the plants. The numbers tell me they should be burning, but I'm in W9 of flower and they are plumping up, probably another 10-14 days to go.

Another question. If you don't mind...

Have you noticed a big difference in yield in flood and drain setup when upgrading pot/medium size? I have ran 4'' x 4'' x 3.25" and 4x4x4" cubes side by side and saw no difference in plant or bud size.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2011)

Bob Smith said:


> I've blown up a few dual arc bulbs using my digital dimmable ballasts, but regular HPS bulbs work fine on them.


Combination MH/HPS lights really are not necessary anyway, so no great loss. 



> The dimmable feature is nice for someone like me who can't move their lights in relation to their plants and doesn't want to shock plants coming straight from fluoro tubes to 2400 watts of light - starting them off at 50% really helps them ease into their new home.


meh... I put clones, which have been under fluoros for about 14 days, straight into the flowering room under 1000HPS with never a problem. 



jojodancer10 said:


> hay DR. Al ,just built a box hor my mom's under a 4 foot eight bulb flo. just wanted to say thanks and you were wright about everything. my 6 mom's are in hydro farm buckets. lol they took off like a bat out of hell. thanks al. i will put post pic's of my mom's before i take cuts


I hope fluoros are enough to raise your mums. If you're running a perpetual/rolling harvest system where you need cuttings every couple of weeks, you'll need a fair amount of light power to regrow them within that time span. I don't generally recommend fluoros for anything but clones, because they only need to be convinced it's daylight for 18-24h/day, instead of needing a lot of light for photosynthesis.



Ferredoxin said:


> Al....... Thanks for all your knowledge over your countless posts. I am usually more of the trolling type, but every now and then a question pops up that I can't find a straight answer to. I am very well versed in plant physiology and soil culture, but I am new to the hydro scene. I am still trying to pinpoint a reservoir management strategy that is effective and easy. Work smarter, not harder right?


Yep. 



> I dont employ your perpetual system, opting to instead grow fewer, larger plants. I have 16 grape stompers under 4 1000w HPS (4 per light) in a CAP Ebb & Gro system w/ hydroton. I am using GH nutes following the Lucas method (sort of....i am actually doing 3G/5M/15B ml/gal for the first 2 weeks of 12/12 before I take the Grow nutes out). I keep the reservoir at 40 gallons by topping off every day with fresh H2O (plants are using about 5 gallons per day right now...Day 11 of 12/12...flooding 4x per lights on and nothing in the dark). As you can imagine, my EC tails off rather quickly with each slug of H2O I add. I seem to get equally valid opinions about topping with either straight H2O or with nutrient solutions of various strength (Lucas says full strength, some say 1/2 strength, some say 1/2 strength every other day....). Either way, I would like to try to stretch out my reservoir changes to the longest interval as possible without sacrificing plant health.


I'm not a fan of this Lucas stuff. 

You should never add nutrient concentrate nor freshly mixed nute soln to an old tank of nutes. Use the nutrient mfr's instructions for mixing. If you follow the mfr's mixing instructions, you'll get the NPK ratio the mfr specifies. A partially spent tank of nutes may (for example) have half the N, 1/3 of the P and 2/3 of the K remaining. If you add nute concentrate or premixed nute soln to the tank, you're not going to get the mfr's specified NPK ratios. You may end up with more of one and less of the other. Ratios that are out of whack can cause the appearance of nutrient deficiencies, but they're not deficiencies at all. You wind up chasing your tail and cooking plants. 

When topping up tanks, you might dip your TDS meter into the solution and add plain water until the TDS comes to the point it should be at, 1000ppm or so. The NPK ratios won't be at the specified ratios for a fresh tank, but you'll be shooting low instead of high. It's always better to underfeed than burn. You can recover a plant from underfeeding- you're much less likely to be able to recover a cooked plant.


> Should I aim to maintain a target EC, or allow the EC to drop over time? What is an acceptable drop? Again, the Lucas method says to drain and refill the res after 1/2 the original volume has been added back. That would mean every 4 days for me, which seems a bit much. Any guidance you offer is appreciated....thanks.


It's preferable to maintain a target strength. Most nutrient mfrs will tell you something similar as regards changing the tanks when 50% of the volume has been replaced with plain water. If your nute strength is dropping precipitously when topping up, just don't top the tank up fully. 

You might also consider a larger res tank. 5L per plant is is about right. I use 125L tanks with trays that hold 24 plants. The nute strength will stay constant, within about 10%, as the soln level drops, over a 2-week life of a tank of nutes. In other words, the plants are eating the nutes in a similar proportion to the quantity of water they're using. I don't have to top up at all, just add H2O2 every 3-4 days, then dump, clean & mix new sauce at the 2-week point.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 28, 2011)

medicine21 said:


> Thanks for the response, Al.


no worries. 



> No root problems here. I learned my lesson of overwatering 2 crops ago and I watered every second day in 5 day veg and first 12 days flowering. The cubes got quite light at some points (around 10% saturated) for sure. It gave good roots (never wilted) but built up my EC in the cubes over time.


Good that there's no root problems, but pH spiking upward is characteristic of pathogen issues. 

Part of the TDS figure from the runoff is comprised of accumulated Mg & Ca redissolving and being carried out by the runoff. The problem is, we don't know just how much. If the plants are doing OK, I don't think I'd have as much basis for concern. Mg & Ca won't contribute to the usual excess-N nute burn. 




> I experimented with covers like this in side-by side without them, but I don't see a difference in the plants. Observed differences WITH the covers is no algae, higher EC, lower pH and mold later on. Not sure what else to cover with or if it's even necessary.


Was there airspace between the covers and the RW cubes? Mould tends to be inhibited by air motion. Might prop them up with 3-4 plastic swizzle sticks into the top of each cube. 




> It did concern me at first and in the past I would flush the cubes once a week, but now I am running with it and the plants don't seem to mind. I wonder if it's possible that it is build up that is not even used by the plants. The numbers tell me they should be burning, but I'm in W9 of flower and they are plumping up, probably another 10-14 days to go.


I suppose the proof of the system working OK despite the runoff figures is whether the plants are doing OK. 



> Another question. If you don't mind...


Sure.



> Have you noticed a big difference in yield in flood and drain setup when upgrading pot/medium size? I have ran 4'' x 4'' x 3.25" and 4x4x4" cubes side by side and saw no difference in plant or bud size.


That's not an awful lot of difference in volume between the two. You really don't need much media volume unless you're growing big plants. If you are growing a small number for legal reasons and thus have to veg a bit before you flower instead of growing a large number of SoG 'lollipops,' you'll probably want about 4L of pot/media volume. My mother plants, vegged for months in some cases, will get a bit potbound by the time I retire them. They're in 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots (as is everything else), which are pretty close to 4L. My flowering plants don't even begin to get potbound by harvest time. I could use smaller pots and less media, but a SoG plant pretty much needs that 175mm circle for foliage space, so even with smaller pots, I don't think I'd grow a greater number of plants in each tray. Smaller pots would make it easier for plants to tip over when the buds get heavy. My trays are 900mm x 900mm- so it happens that 24x 175mmm pots fit very tightly in the trays and simply can't fall over.


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## Ferredoxin (Mar 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'm not a fan of this Lucas stuff.
> 
> You should never add nutrient concentrate nor freshly mixed nute soln to an old tank of nutes. Use the nutrient mfr's instructions for mixing. If you follow the mfr's mixing instructions, you'll get the NPK ratio the mfr specifies. A partially spent tank of nutes may (for example) have half the N, 1/3 of the P and 2/3 of the K remaining. If you add nute concentrate or premixed nute soln to the tank, you're not going to get the mfr's specified NPK ratios. You may end up with more of one and less of the other. Ratios that are out of whack can cause the appearance of nutrient deficiencies, but they're not deficiencies at all. You wind up chasing your tail and cooking plants.
> 
> ...


Excellent. I had that little voice in the back of my head telling me to follow the label rates...not sure why I thought this guy Lucas knows better than the scientists at GH. =/

So basically it is okay to let the res drop over time as long as a) there is enough volume to complete a flood, and b) the EC stays constant. I have been short-filling my 55 gal res to save on nutes and water, but it sounds like I will fill it all the way and just let it drop. 55 gals - 15 gals for a flood = 40 gals to play with, divided by 5 gals/day consumed = 8 days between changes. Easier for me, and better for my plants....I love it when that happens!


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 1, 2011)

sounds like a plan, Stan.


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## medicine21 (Mar 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Was there airspace between the covers and the RW cubes? Mould tends to be inhibited by air motion. Might prop them up with 3-4 plastic swizzle sticks into the top of each cube.


That's a good idea, I will give it a shot next time! Thanks.



> You really don't need much media volume unless you're growing big plants. If you are growing a small number for legal reasons and thus have to veg a bit before you flower instead of growing a large number of SoG 'lollipops,' you'll probably want about 4L of pot/media volume.


In fact, this is exactly what I have to do. Moving away from 30 SOG plants per each 4x4' area, that has treated me so well thanks in part to your previous threads.

The plan is to convert to a 4 week perpetual. One 4x4' flood and drain doing 4 week veg. Two other 4x4 flood and drains doing 1-4 and 5-8W flowering. There would be 12 plants in each 4x4 shooting for 3oz/plant. I am currently doing almost an ounce per SOG plant with a 5 day veg.

During veg, the plants are Uncle Ben topped and the cuttings become clones. So the idea is to have a motherless perpetual with 48 plants. Not sure if that makes sense, since I have no experience cloning or growing big plants.

I was going to do it in 6" RW cubes (3.5L) volume, really for the lack of something better. Hydroton doesn't hold enough water for safety margin for me and I don't want to clean it, coco doesn't seem ideal for flood and drain, can't get fytocell and sure-to-grow look to be crap. What's my best bet for these bigger plants in a flood and drain?


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## Indefinately (Mar 1, 2011)

Hey medicine Mary,
I flood and drain coco with no issues.
I lay a layer of floc (bottom 8cm) of my pot.

Works great for me.....


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## Highhopes99 (Mar 1, 2011)

Hey al, i went to my local hydro store to get some flock, there asking me if I want repelant or obsorbant rockwool flock.
Do you mix these two together for better drainage? I know you don't use flock for flowering anymore but I wanted to know if you were using a mix of theses two when you used to use it for flowering? You have written that flock holds too much water so this could help? Also I was at the hardwear store looking at insulation and came across rock fiber insulation. It looks exactly the same as rockwool slabs. Was thinking of trying test to see if it would work as well. Any thoughts? Thanks.. Nice to see you still kicking around.


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## pdillo (Mar 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you have it, use it. You're unlikely to recover much of your outlay by onselling it- used ballasts don't normally have much resale value. If it blows up while still in warranty, get another one, bearing in mind that there may be a pro-rata warranty, where you may be expected to pay a portion of the replacement cost. Compare what you have to pay on the pro-rata against what you will spend on a new magnetic ballast.
> 
> I DO shake my head when I think of the EEs at Lumatek adding the dimming feature. WHY would you want to dim a horticultural light? Mood lighting, I guess...


Thank you sir, think I'll go ahead will invest in a Digilux bulb and see how it treats me. Also went ahead and ordered a lux meter, sounds like a wise tool to keep on hand. Along with the dim feature on new Lumateks, there is also an overdrive (or SUPER LUMEN!!) setting&#8230; which is probably good for burning bulbs out a lot faster. I've just kept it on normal 600w output so far. 

While we got ya here, thought I would bug ya about batwing reflectors. I'm thinking of making my own to fit over my cooltubes for a better rectangular spread (pretty much the same dimensions as a medium adjust-a-wing). Would you say common hardware store mill aluminum with a high-heat matte white paint job suffice? Or would it be a better idea to go ahead and spend the extra cash on the reflector specific 'german aluminum' material (shiny aluminum with dimples) from the hydro shop? I mean, aesthetically that would be less ghetto looking 

Thanks mane!

*edit - actually neva mind, went to the hydro shop earlier and the price on the german aluminum was pretty fair, thats what I'll be using


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## skiweeds (Mar 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> On flushing: The only thing you really _*need *_to flush is your toilet. There's no particular need to flush or leach cannabis plants before harvesting, but you can do it if you want. The plants store about 2 weeks worth of nutes, so you can safely give plants plain water, no pH correction needed, in weeks 6-8.
> 
> 'Clearex' is completely unnecessary and falls into the dreaded 'magic sauce' category, that is, things that your local hydro shop are happy to take your dough for that won't really do anything. Nothing but time will cause plants to consume the remaining stored nutrients.



just curious, why would you not want to flush plants? i notice when i flush my plants the smoke tastes much better. i have harvested a few plants without flushing(same strain) and the smoke tasted like chemicals. i know a flush isnt needed, but shouldnt flushing be a requirement to grow premium dope since it improves the flavor? 

im more of a soil grower myself. im new to hydro and just starting with a small aeroponic system. thanks a lot for this thread. lot of good info. +rep!


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## pdillo (Mar 1, 2011)

skiweeds said:


> i notice when i flush my plants the smoke tastes much better


haha, good luck convincing al of that! you might want to go ahead and bring up the importance of a 'good cure' while your at it


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 1, 2011)

Ferredoxin said:


> Excellent. I had that little voice in the back of my head telling me to follow the label rates...not sure why I thought this guy Lucas knows better than the scientists at GH. =/
> 
> So basically it is okay to let the res drop over time as long as a) there is enough volume to complete a flood, and b) the EC stays constant. I have been short-filling my 55 gal res to save on nutes and water, but it sounds like I will fill it all the way and just let it drop. 55 gals - 15 gals for a flood = 40 gals to play with, divided by 5 gals/day consumed = 8 days between changes. Easier for me, and better for my plants....I love it when that happens!


lucas works good for young plant but as soon as they get bigger you will run into a def. and lucas swears by not useing supliments and thats BS GH has a online nute
calculator to custom build a feeding program. if you mix 1300ppm in 55gal of water and a day later its 40gal and 1400ppm your going to add back water to get back
to the 1300ppm but at the same time, if this is the case then I believe your ppm is to high to start with. If you start at 1300ppm and lose 10gal and its still 1300ppm
then I think its a perfect ratio, now plants will take more or less through there life span so get a calander and chart every feeding and change so next time you can follow
or correct your feeding. I use 1300ppm as a nonfiction number.


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## jojodancer10 (Mar 1, 2011)

hello family, DR. Al B. Fust, got a question for ya, i dont have much room so i built a home made box that's 4 feet long, 4 feet tall and two and a half feet wide. i had a t5 8 bulb light from my first grow about 2 years ago. i have been studing your style and i have came to the point that i will take cuttings from my mom's every 8 weeks. will the moms be ok under the flo's? or do i need to spend more money on my light bill? what size light system should i get if i am to spend money? a 150, 250, 400 or 600 watt light for 24sqf


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## Ferredoxin (Mar 1, 2011)

My PPM has stayed consistent from day to day. It only drops when I add water back to top off. I am just not going to top off now.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 1, 2011)

Ferredoxin said:


> My PPM has stayed consistent from day to day. It only drops when I add water back to top off. I am just not going to top off now.


then it sound like you found that sweet spot


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## dlively11 (Mar 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> While I'm here, I've got to comment on 'magic sauces.' I was in my local hydro shop the other day and noticed they've expanded the range of magical rubbish by a factor of 2, at least. If you're using a good quality inorganic nutrient (I use Canna nutes), you simply will have no need for anything else beyond H2O2 and perhaps some phosphoric acid based pH Down. You'll find that good nutes already include pH buffers that will set the pH of most tapwater to 5.8-6.0 when you mix for 1000-1100ppm. However, when you top up tanks (always with plain tapwater), the pH may wander upward somewhat. Correct it _carefully_ with pH Down- and don't overshoot. Too low is as bad as too high.
> 
> Dump your tanks every 2 weeks and mix entirely new solution. Don't try to add nute concentrates to a half-eaten tank of nutes. You'll have no way of knowing if the NPK ratios are correct- but I can guarantee you that they won't be.


I was told to dump my tank every week. Or atleast it was ideal. Do you think I am wasting my time/money Al ? I have been doing it this way for well over a year since I went to hydro.


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## dlively11 (Mar 1, 2011)

What are your thoughts on the whole defoilation debate for a full SOG table. I have had my best results doing 4 per SQ foot and removing all the large fan leaves by week 3 of bloom. There are some in here that seem to beleive we are hurting the grow by doing this. That being said they do not grow SOG themselves. Just curious as to what your thoughts were on the matter. Here are a few I did at 4 per foot and removed all the larger fan leaves. Averaged 30 grams per plant dried and cut.


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## mindphuk (Mar 2, 2011)

pdillo said:


> Thank you sir, think I'll go ahead will invest in a Digilux bulb and see how it treats me. Also went ahead and ordered a lux meter, sounds like a wise tool to keep on hand.


 Instead of a lux meter, you really want to get a quantum meter to measure PAR. 

They are a bit more expensive that lux meters but it looks like some aquarium hobbyists were able to get a really good discount on one particular brand. I think we should look into something like this http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-aquariums/26252-group-buy-apogee-mq200-par-meter.html


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## iflylow (Mar 2, 2011)

Hey Al, was reading the MSDS on 29% H2O2 (you do read the sheets on all your hazardous chems right?!!) and discovered that its biggest hazard involves contamination followed by rapid oxidization. How do you handle your 50% stuff? 

How do you measure out small quantites of the potent stuff without contaminating your source? 

Have you ever had any issue with spills? 

I was talking to the local hydro shop owner and he told me a story of a bottle of 29% he sold that didn't have the cap entirely on. It was leaking out onto the customer's back seat. The customer was driving home, heard some noise, smelled the smoke and watched as his rear seat effectively melted down. I don't expect that to happen to me but I also don't want to go blind just transferring 6.8 mL into 4L of water. Am I being over cautious?


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## pdillo (Mar 2, 2011)

mindphuk said:


> Instead of a lux meter, you really want to get a quantum meter to measure PAR.
> 
> They are a bit more expensive that lux meters but it looks like some aquarium hobbyists were able to get a really good discount on one particular brand. I think we should look into something like this http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-aquariums/26252-group-buy-apogee-mq200-par-meter.html


Thanks man! I ordered the lux meter (same one they sell on HTG) from china for 15 bucks a few days ago&#8230; once that one breaks I'll def invest in the quantum meter


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 2, 2011)

iflylow said:


> Hey Al, was reading the MSDS on 29% H2O2 (you do read the sheets on all your hazardous chems right?!!) and discovered that its biggest hazard involves contamination followed by rapid oxidization. How do you handle your 50% stuff?
> 
> How do you measure out small quantites of the potent stuff without contaminating your source?
> 
> ...


all i can get is 29% at the local shop and ive never been burned by it yet so id have to call BS on that story, it is hazardus just dont believe its that stong


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## doniawon (Mar 2, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> all i can get is 29% at the local shop and ive never been burned by it yet so id have to call BS on that story, it is hazardus just dont believe its that stong


stick your finger in the bottle and count to 20!!!


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 2, 2011)

for the sake of my finger il pass lol just havnt been burned and ive had little drops get on me from time to time and
no issue, although i wiped it off but melting a car seat im not sure about that.


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## pdillo (Mar 2, 2011)

I've accidentally gotten 35% on my finger tips a few times actually it happens kinda frequently   oxidizes my skin (turns it white) for a half hour or so. Don't be a lazy ass like me, wear some rubber gloves! Haha. I've never felt a 'burn' sensation tho but then again I don't go stickin my finger in the jug either!


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## jojodancer10 (Mar 3, 2011)

5 inch square pots = 4 pots per sqf total 32 plants


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## WWShadow (Mar 5, 2011)

Al B. I never thought I'd get the chance to thankyou for your [email protected] on a harvest every 2 weeks, how long are you drying & curing? Or do you just smoke it right off the stalk? lol I love the week baron thread!! I hope you'll be back to visit more often.

thanks for all the knowledge

WW


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 6, 2011)

OK, had to tend to some crap for a few days. Let's see if I can catch up. 



medicine21 said:


> I am currently doing almost an ounce per SOG plant with a 5 day veg.


 Sounds good. 



> During veg, the plants are Uncle Ben topped and the cuttings become clones. So the idea is to have a motherless perpetual with 48 plants. Not sure if that makes sense, since I have no experience cloning or growing big plants.


 Topping plants in a straight SoG op is not a good idea. You're eliminating the top cola. If you top the plants, they will branch out & grow a number of smaller terminal coals on each resulting stem. 


> I was going to do it in 6" RW cubes (3.5L) volume, really for the lack of something better. Hydroton doesn't hold enough water for safety margin for me and I don't want to clean it, coco doesn't seem ideal for flood and drain, can't get fytocell and sure-to-grow look to be crap. What's my best bet for these bigger plants in a flood and drain?


 6" RW cubes will do fine, as will pots of RW floc. Just be careful with watering when the plants are still small. RW has such a high water holding capacity that small plants might suffer from overwatering issues if watered daily. 



Indefinately said:


> Hey medicine Mary,
> I flood and drain coco with no issues.
> I lay a layer of floc (bottom 8cm) of my pot.
> 
> Works great for me.....


 Sounds OK, though I'm not a fan of coir. Organic matter will break up when repeatedly exposed to H2O2 and the bits will get loose in the system. You've solved that problem by putting some RW in the pot bottoms, though. 



Highhopes99 said:


> Hey al, i went to my local hydro store to get some flock, there asking me if I want repelant or obsorbant rockwool flock.
> Do you mix these two together for better drainage? I know you don't use flock for flowering anymore but I wanted to know if you were using a mix of theses two when you used to use it for flowering? You have written that flock holds too much water so this could help? Also I was at the hardwear store looking at insulation and came across rock fiber insulation. It looks exactly the same as rockwool slabs. Was thinking of trying test to see if it would work as well. Any thoughts? Thanks.. Nice to see you still kicking around.


 Normally, you will want only absorbent RW floc. You could conceivably mix absorbent and repellent floc, but I've not tried it and can't really advise you on the mixing ratio. 'Rock fibre' insulation very likely is what growers know as rockwool. It's probably the water repellent variety, though- by itself, in slabs, would probably not be suitable for hydroponic growing.



pdillo said:


> Thank you sir, think I'll go ahead will invest in a Digilux bulb and see how it treats me. Also went ahead and ordered a lux meter, sounds like a wise tool to keep on hand. Along with the dim feature on new Lumateks, there is also an overdrive (or SUPER LUMEN!!) setting&#8230; which is probably good for burning bulbs out a lot faster. I've just kept it on normal 600w output so far.


 The Digilux lamps are kinda pricey. Expanded spectrum lamps are not necessary for flowering. Plain old HPS streetlight tubes will work fine. I prefer name branded lamp tubes i.e. Sylvania, GE, etc. 

I'm with you- I would not use the 'overdrive' function of the electronic ballast. 

Lux meters are handy, mainly as an aid in judging when an HPS tube is worn out. When you put in new tubes, pick a convenient spot and measure the luminous output. When the measured output is down 20%, replace the lamp. 



> While we got ya here, thought I would bug ya about batwing reflectors. I'm thinking of making my own to fit over my cooltubes for a better rectangular spread (pretty much the same dimensions as a medium adjust-a-wing). Would you say common hardware store mill aluminum with a high-heat matte white paint job suffice? Or would it be a better idea to go ahead and spend the extra cash on the reflector specific 'german aluminum' material (shiny aluminum with dimples) from the hydro shop? I mean, aesthetically that would be less ghetto looking


 I'd prefer the dimpled aluminum to a painted reflector. In high-humidity environments, the paint will eventually start peeling. 




skiweeds said:


> just curious, why would you not want to flush plants?


 Because it has no effect on the taste of the buds. 



> i notice when i flush my plants the smoke tastes much better. i have harvested a few plants without flushing(same strain) and the smoke tasted like chemicals.


 By any chance, had those plants been fert burned? That's the usual cause for that sort of problem. 



> i know a flush isnt needed, but shouldnt flushing be a requirement to grow premium dope since it improves the flavor?


 A plant that hasn't been fert burned will yield perfectly fine tasting buds. 



pdillo said:


> haha, good luck convincing al of that! you might want to go ahead and bring up the importance of a 'good cure' while your at it


 Yeah... 'curing' is just not necessary in a modern grow op. That's a practise that you'll find described in VERY old grow books- we're talking early 1970s. Back in the day, growers used to leave quite a lot of fan leaf matter in with the buds. Aging or 'curing' as it were does break down chlorophyll, which is important if you're smoking leaf. Buds by themselves have a very high resin to vegetable matter ratio and a lot less chlorophyll than fan leaves. There's no need to 'cure' buds. These days, fan leaves go to the compost- problem solved. 



hellraizer30 said:


> lucas works good for young plant but as soon as they get bigger you will run into a def. and lucas swears by not useing supliments and thats BS GH has a online nute
> calculator to custom build a feeding program. if you mix 1300ppm in 55gal of water and a day later its 40gal and 1400ppm your going to add back water to get back
> to the 1300ppm but at the same time, if this is the case then I believe your ppm is to high to start with. If you start at 1300ppm and lose 10gal and its still 1300ppm
> then I think its a perfect ratio, now plants will take more or less through there life span so get a calander and chart every feeding and change so next time you can follow
> or correct your feeding. I use 1300ppm as a nonfiction number.


 I'd follow the mfr's mixing instructions. 

1300 is a bit too strong. Remember, these are plants, not V8 engines. There's 'not enough,' 'just right' and 'cooked.' 'More' is not always 'better' unless we're talking about light. Plants will do fine at about 800-1000ppm. 

If you mix for 1000 and find the TDS has jumped up when some of the water has been used, yes, you can add some plain tapwater until the TDS drops back to 1000 (and then correct pH). What's happening is that the plants are proportionately using water faster than the nutes in the solution. You might try mixing for a lower TDS, perhaps 800ppm. 



jojodancer10 said:


> hello family, DR. Al B. Fust, got a question for ya, i dont have much room so i built a home made box that's 4 feet long, 4 feet tall and two and a half feet wide. i had a t5 8 bulb light from my first grow about 2 years ago. i have been studing your style and i have came to the point that i will take cuttings from my mom's every 8 weeks. will the moms be ok under the flo's? or do i need to spend more money on my light bill? what size light system should i get if i am to spend money? a 150, 250, 400 or 600 watt light for 24sqf


 It depends on how fast you need mums to regrow after taking a batch of cuts and how many cuttings you need to make. 8wks is a long time between batches of cuttings. Fluoros may be sufficient in your case, but one thing you won't get with mums under fluoros is big, thick stems. If your mums don't regrow fast enough, look at a 250W HPS or 175W MH. 



dlively11 said:


> I was told to dump my tank every week. Or atleast it was ideal. Do you think I am wasting my time/money Al ? I have been doing it this way for well over a year since I went to hydro.


 It depends on the volume of your nute tank. If you have about 5L of tank volume per plant, you should be able to get through 2 weeks between tank dumps. Mind you, I'm quite sure your local hydro shop operator would have you mix new tanks every day if he could convince you to do it. 



dlively11 said:


> What are your thoughts on the whole defoilation debate for a full SOG table. I have had my best results doing 4 per SQ foot and removing all the large fan leaves by week 3 of bloom. There are some in here that seem to beleive we are hurting the grow by doing this. That being said they do not grow SOG themselves. Just curious as to what your thoughts were on the matter. Here are a few I did at 4 per foot and removed all the larger fan leaves. Averaged 30 grams per plant dried and cut.


 Leave the fans on. Leaves are solar panels for your plants- they're responsible for making the sugars that build the cellulose plant matter. SoG trimming involves removing all the branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant, usually at the end of wk 1 & 3- any branch that's threatening to get more than about 1" long should be pruned off. However, I'd leave the fans on, for the aforementioned reasons. 



mindphuk said:


> Instead of a lux meter, you really want to get a quantum meter to measure PAR.
> 
> They are a bit more expensive that lux meters but it looks like some aquarium hobbyists were able to get a really good discount on one particular brand. I think we should look into something like this http://www.reefland.com/forum/reef-aquariums/26252-group-buy-apogee-mq200-par-meter.html


 All you really need for light measurement is a relative indication. Any lux meter is fine, as long as it is consistent. There's not much use for lux meters else than determining when a tube is past its serviceable life. Beyond that is splitting hairs. There IS a such thing as too much information.



iflylow said:


> Hey Al, was reading the MSDS on 29% H2O2 (you do read the sheets on all your hazardous chems right?!!) and discovered that its biggest hazard involves contamination followed by rapid oxidization. How do you handle your 50% stuff?


 Carefully!

I'm not sure what they mean by 'contamination followed by rapid oxidization.' An aqueous H2O2 solution, certainly when the water content is 71%, is not apt to cause spontaneous combustion of combustible materials. 



> How do you measure out small quantites of the potent stuff without contaminating your source?


 By tipping it into a clean, dry graduated measuring cup. Very small amounts can be drawn out with a 10ml or 60ml syringe.



> Have you ever had any issue with spills?


 Yes. Spilled H2O2 should be flushed away with a large volume of plain water. If your grow room doesn't have a resilient floor where flushing is possible, while wearing rubber gloves, mop up with paper towels, which are then placed in a large volume (say, a 10L bucket) of water, then clean up the remaining spill with a wet sponge. Rinse the sponge out immediately under a running tap and repeat until the H2O2 on the surface is dilute enough to be safe. It's always smart to use safety goggles and nitrile rubber gloves when handling high strength H2O2. A splash in the eye MAY result in permanent eye damage but WILL be painful as hell. 



> I was talking to the local hydro shop owner and he told me a story of a bottle of 29% he sold that didn't have the cap entirely on. It was leaking out onto the customer's back seat. The customer was driving home, heard some noise, smelled the smoke and watched as his rear seat effectively melted down. I don't expect that to happen to me but I also don't want to go blind just transferring 6.8 mL into 4L of water. Am I being over cautious?


 29% isn't especially strong, and as said, with 71% water content, isn't apt to cause spontaneous combustion. I honestly don't believe his story. The 29% stuff _can_ cause skin irritation and eye injuries, though. I think he may have been a bit hypey/overcautious with his advice, but all the same, it's not wise to splash the stuff around. 



pdillo said:


> Thanks man! I ordered the lux meter (same one they sell on HTG) from china for 15 bucks a few days ago&#8230; once that one breaks I'll def invest in the quantum meter


 Meh. As said, any lux meter that reads consistently is sufficient. 



hellraizer30 said:


> all i can get is 29% at the local shop and ive never been burned by it yet so id have to call BS on that story, it is hazardus just dont believe its that strong


 Agreed. 



doniawon said:


> stick your finger in the bottle and count to 20!!!


Uh, no. 29% will definitely cause skin irritation, particularly if you get some under a fingernail. 



WWShadow said:


> Al B. I never thought I'd get the chance to thankyou for your [email protected] on a harvest every 2 weeks, how long are you drying & curing? Or do you just smoke it right off the stalk?


My buds are usually dry in 3 days, using my bud dryer. Ready to smoke as soon as the stems snap. 



> lol I love the week baron thread!! I hope you'll be back to visit more often.
> 
> thanks for all the knowledge


You're quite welcome. 'How Not To Grow Dope' IS a good bit of fun. I just wish I had more time to write stuff like that.


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## Rick Ratlin (Mar 6, 2011)

Hey Al great to have you back. I wanted to know if you use light diffusers with your cooltubes. I've got one on my 1K, about 14" above the canopy. Uncle Ben had mentioned bleaching that occurs from too much light, so I'm afraid to remove my diffuser. 
I used your cloning tips with the best success, but I switched to a diy bubbler cloner that works well, I'm too lazy to water the rw cubes, as the new system is set and forget. I now have the free clonebox with exhaust, do you see any problem using it as a bud dryer? I also use a sulfur burner, no problems, for 5 minutes 1 hour after lights off, 1 hour before lights off, no fans running, about 55% rh. Sound good? Also, why not top off with pH 5.8 water? Sorry for the question grenade. Thanks for the advice, you're the best!


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## medicine21 (Mar 7, 2011)

Hey Al, still in search of a medium that is somewhere in between rockwool and hydroton in terms of water absorption, retention and capillary action for flood and drain. What are your thoughts on diatomite/higromite/dyna rock 2/etc...? It seems to fit the bill and adds silica as a bonus.


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## pdillo (Mar 8, 2011)

Thanks Al for all this free consulting, u'z a patient man!



Al B. Fuct said:


> The Digilux lamps are kinda pricey. Expanded spectrum lamps are not necessary for flowering. Plain old HPS streetlight tubes will work fine. I prefer name branded lamp tubes i.e. Sylvania, GE, etc.


One problem I've had with the 600w setup is finding streetlight variety bulbs. Even GE and Sylvania types are a lot more pricey and harder to track down than the more common 400w and 1000w. I know, its a hard knock life!



Al B. Fuct said:


> I'd prefer the dimpled aluminum to a painted reflector. In high-humidity environments, the paint will eventually start peeling.


Cool, thanks. The sheets come 2'x4', so I would be able to cut two 2'x2' pieces for two batwings u think a 2 foot width would be wide enough to work with for a 600w hanging over a 3'x4' area? Or should I buy 2 pieces of the stuff so I can go wider? 

Do u filter your cooltube intake? My cooltubes are gettin dusty fast my fear is my shit brushless axials couldnt take the added static pressure of a filter (gonna upgrade to BB axials once these go down!)

One last question about the bud dryer; do you manicure the buds off the main stem before loading em in? The only benefit I could see to keeping the buds on the stem would be to have something to bend or snap for judging moisture content but it seems like it would dry faster and easier to get rid of fan leaves removing em from the stem

Thanks, U rock


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## Swiezy (Mar 8, 2011)

Anybody got an idea what to do with waste?? There will be probably a lot of that after every 2 weeks.


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## pdillo (Mar 8, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> Anybody got an idea what to do with waste?? There will be probably a lot of that after every 2 weeks.


Compost! If u don't have a yard for a compost bin, u can drive yer gro specific trash to a dumpster. Its okay to throw away certain things with the normal household garbage. Grow medium without any plant material can be sacked and mixed in discreetly with other household waste. U can deface or remove labels from nute bottles before putting em your trash or recycling, or take em to one of those recycling places where u load the plastic in yourself. Just make sure no obvious plant material gets in yer trash, u should be safe. One thing to note, if cops are sorting thru your trash, chances are u done fucked up anywho! But its good to be cautious.

Speaking of cautious, one thing thats always concerned me was ordering grow gear online&#8230; however buying gear from hydro shops isn't necessarily 100% safe either&#8230; has anyone ever had issues with online ordering or using personal credit/debit cards? or hell, even posting journals and such on these forums? Would having a VPN service be showing acute signs of paranoia? Seems like lots and lots of people are getting away with it&#8230; so thats assuring, ha!


----------



## DIRTHAWKER (Mar 8, 2011)

Ive read the whole thread..thanks Al for all the great information!

Ive been running the full botanicare mix for the last couple years in an aeroponic stinkbud system. I always get brown semi slimy roots at (weeks 4- harvest). 

How would you battle that when using an organic nute such as botanicare? I was all set to go pick up some 29% h202 and start using it. but botanicare is organic.

I will switch to an inorganic in the future but at the moment i am already stocked up with botanicare.

Thanks


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## medicine21 (Mar 9, 2011)

DIRTHAWKER said:


> Ive read the whole thread..thanks Al for all the great information!
> 
> Ive been running the full botanicare mix for the last couple years in an aeroponic stinkbud system. I always get brown semi slimy roots at (weeks 4- harvest).
> 
> ...


This thread right here seems right up your alley. All who have followed this recipe seem to report success of getting rid of slime.


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## joe macclennan (Mar 9, 2011)

hey al i posted this question in the plant problems section but have received no responses.my question is about using abamectin i read in a post somewhere that you recomend using this to control spider mites so i went right out and got some. whew pretty expensive stuff. anyway i did not follow the recommended mixing instructions of 4 oz per 100 gallons as the fraction was too boggling to my somewhat fuzzy brain so i just eyeballed "a bit" into my one pint spray bottle.(bad move) the next day it looked as if my clones had received a serious nitrogen od. (at least to my eyes)i'm probably going to lose around a third of my clones
i have been spraying them 2x a day since w/regular tap water but the damage has already been done.so my question is what other care would you recommend for my babies at this time. 
thanks a bunch you are an inspiration to many of us
joe


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## doniawon (Mar 16, 2011)

Is it possible to graft hundreds of sog plants together, like there holding hands i guess??? would that make the plant count 1?


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## skiweeds (Mar 16, 2011)

doniawon said:


> Is it possible to graft hundreds of sog plants together, like there holding hands i guess??? would that make the plant count 1?


 under michigan medical laws, plant count is determined by the amount of root structures. yes it would be considered 1 plant because the scions(plants to be grafted) would have no roots. at least in michigan anyway. hell as long as you had it locked indoors, you could legally have a 20 foot plant. i know a guy that literally has a tree of a pot plant over 10 feet in a green house. he actually keeps a step ladder next to it. check your state laws to be sure though. i dont know if all states go by root count.


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## JayDoe71 (Mar 16, 2011)

Subscribed


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2011)

Rick Ratlin said:


> Hey Al great to have you back. I wanted to know if you use light diffusers with your cooltubes. I've got one on my 1K, about 14" above the canopy. Uncle Ben had mentioned bleaching that occurs from too much light, so I'm afraid to remove my diffuser.


 Bleaching occurs when plant tissue is killed, for whatever reason. If the tops get overheated, the tissue will die & bleach. with cooltubes, it's pretty hard to get that to happen. Keep about 6-8" spacing between tops & a 1000 in a cooltube and you should not need diffusers.



> I used your cloning tips with the best success, but I switched to a diy bubbler cloner that works well, I'm too lazy to water the rw cubes, as the new system is set and forget. I now have the free  clonebox with exhaust, do you see any problem using it as a bud dryer?


 Not everyone has as much success with aero cloners but if yours works, go with it. I like to clone in RW cubes because the roots are supported within teh cube and are more difficult to damage when planting in the grow media. 



> I also use a sulfur burner, no problems, for 5 minutes 1 hour after lights off, 1 hour before lights off, no fans running, about 55% rh. Sound good?


 Yep, sounds OK.



> Also, why not top off with pH 5.8 water?


 It's easier to hit the correct pH by dosing the tank after you have topped up with plain water. You'll be prone to overshooting low when you try to top up with pH adjusted water. 



medicine21 said:


> Hey Al, still in search of a medium that is somewhere in between rockwool and hydroton in terms of water absorption, retention and capillary action for flood and drain. What are your thoughts on diatomite/higromite/dyna rock 2/etc...? It seems to fit the bill and adds silica as a bonus.


 Perlite works pretty well. I've never heard of diatomite/higromite/dyna rock 2.



pdillo said:


> One problem I've had with the 600w setup is finding streetlight variety bulbs. Even GE and Sylvania types are a lot more pricey and harder to track down than the more common 400w and 1000w. I know, its a hard knock life!


 400 & 1000 are, as you note, much more common in public lighting and are thus easier to find. All I can tell you is shop hard, baby. 


> Cool, thanks. The sheets come 2'x4', so I would be able to cut two 2'x2' pieces for two batwings&#8230; u think a 2 foot width would be wide enough to work with for a 600w hanging over a 3'x4' area? Or should I buy 2 pieces of the stuff so I can go wider?


 The commercially made Adjust-a-wings reflectors are made in 2 sections, split down the centreline of the lamp tube. No reason why you can't emulate that style. 


> Do u filter your cooltube intake? My cooltubes are gettin dusty fast&#8230; my fear is my shit brushless axials couldnt take the added static pressure of a filter (gonna upgrade to BB axials once these go down!)


 No, I don't filter my cooltube air intake, but it's certainly possible. Try some pantyhose material stretched tightly across the intake. Should pass enough air but will catch larger dust particles. Works on my bud dryer. Clean or replace the filter material periodically. You can tell if you're not getting enough air if the surfaces of the cooltube get warm.



> One last question about the bud dryer; do you manicure the buds off the main stem before loading em in? The only benefit I could see to keeping the buds on the stem would be to have something to bend or snap for judging moisture content&#8230; but it seems like it would dry faster and easier to get rid of fan leaves removing em from the stem&#8230;


 Yep, I take the buds off the stem before putting them in the dryer. When I manicure, the fan leaves and larger bud leaves get trimmed off first, then I snip the buds off the stems and finish leaf removal. This way, once the dryer has done its job, the buds are ready to bag up or smoke.



Swiezy said:


> Anybody got an idea what to do with waste?? There will be probably a lot of that after every 2 weeks.


 Some ppl use cold water filtration extraction to make hash out of the rather resinous bud leaf material. Me, I can't be fucked to mess with it. All my plant waste (a solidly packed 10L bucket every 2 weeks) goes through a branch chipper, then into the compost. The branch chipper shreds everything into a relatively fine mulch that breaks down in compost really fast, about a week or so until the plant matter is unrecognisable as cannabis cuttings. 



pdillo said:


> Compost! If u don't have a yard for a compost bin, u can drive yer gro specific trash to a dumpster. Its okay to throw away certain things with the normal household garbage. Grow medium without any plant material can be sacked and mixed in discreetly with other household waste. U can deface or remove labels from nute bottles before putting em your trash or recycling, or take em to one of those recycling places where u load the plastic in yourself. Just make sure no obvious plant material gets in yer trash, u should be safe. One thing to note, if cops are sorting thru your trash, chances are u done fucked up anywho! But its good to be cautious.


 Yep, that's what I do around here. 



> Speaking of cautious, one thing thats always concerned me was ordering grow gear online&#8230; however buying gear from hydro shops isn't necessarily 100% safe either&#8230; has anyone ever had issues with online ordering or using personal credit/debit cards? or hell, even posting journals and such on these forums? Would having a VPN service be showing acute signs of paranoia? Seems like lots and lots of people are getting away with it&#8230; so thats assuring, ha!


 It's always better to be safe than sorry. Where possible, buy from hydro shops, pay cash and do not give a name or address. Operation Green Merchant targeted hydro shops- customer lists were confiscated and used as evidence. If there's no records, there's no evidence. However, this doesn't stop coppers from surveilling vehicles which are used to visit hydro shops. All by itself, though, the appearance of your car at a hydro shop will not constitute probable cause to obtain a warrant to search your house for a grow op. If a cop gets a warrant based on a number plate surveilled at a hydro shop, any good lawyer should be able to get all ensuing evidence suppressed as 'fruit of the poison tree' and any resulting charges should be dismissed (provided you are in the US & exercised your 5th Amendment right to remain silent, throughout any contact with LEO).

VPN isn't a bad idea. Remember, paranoia is just a heightened state of awareness (apologies to Hunter Thompson). If you use Gmail as the interface between you & the hydro shop, better yet. Gmail does not reveal an originating IP. 



DIRTHAWKER said:


> Ive read the whole thread..thanks Al for all the great information!
> 
> Ive been running the full botanicare mix for the last couple years in an aeroponic stinkbud system. I always get brown semi slimy roots at (weeks 4- harvest).
> 
> ...


 Get rid of the organic nutes. Return them to the shop & exchange for inorganic nutes. Problem solved. 



medicine21 said:


> This thread right here seems right up your alley. All who have followed this recipe seem to report success of getting rid of slime.


 Some ppl, but far from all, who have used beneficial bacteria report success. ALL ppl who use inorganic nutes & H2O2 have success. 



joe macclennan said:


> hey al i posted this question in the plant problems section but have received no responses.my question is about using abamectin i read in a post somewhere that you recomend using this to control spider mites so i went right out and got some. whew pretty expensive stuff. anyway i did not follow the recommended mixing instructions of 4 oz per 100 gallons as the fraction was too boggling to my somewhat fuzzy brain so i just eyeballed "a bit" into my one pint spray bottle.(bad move) the next day it looked as if my clones had received a serious nitrogen od. (at least to my eyes)i'm probably going to lose around a third of my clones
> i have been spraying them 2x a day since w/regular tap water but the damage has already been done.so my question is what other care would you recommend for my babies at this time.
> thanks a bunch you are an inspiration to many of us
> joe


Sorry joe, you MUST follow the mfr's mixing instructions EXACTLY. If the plants are cooked, start over. Make sure you clean, clean, clean and vacuum, vacuum, vacuum your grow op before starting again. 



doniawon said:


> Is it possible to graft hundreds of sog plants together, like there holding hands i guess??? would that make the plant count 1?


No, it's not possible to graft hundreds of plants together. Impractical. When LEO is counting plants, they're counting rootmasses.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 16, 2011)

hey AL im on a full line of inorganic nutes now and have been hiting it with H202 at 7mil per gal. its helping but not 100% killing
this shit im also trying bleach and thats not working either. theres no light leeks in the res and ive got x4 air stones in there
and a pump on a closed loop running 24/7. water temp is 66 to 69F so my Q is how high can I up the H202? its 29% H202
without plant damage.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> hey AL im on a full line of inorganic nutes now and have been hiting it with H202 at 7mil per gal. its helping but not 100% killing
> this shit im also trying bleach and thats not working either. theres no light leeks in the res and ive got x4 air stones in there
> and a pump on a closed loop running 24/7. water temp is 66 to 69F so my Q is how high can I up the H202? its 29% H202
> without plant damage.


Plants are highly tolerant of H2O2. You can increase the dose by a factor of 10 with no ill effects. 

DO NOT USE LAUNDRY BLEACH IN NUTE SOLUTIONS. EVER.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 16, 2011)

K say I up the H202 dose from 7ml to ?ml per gal with 29%
at what point if there is will it be a waist, knowing it 
wont hurt the plants.


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## Encomium (Mar 16, 2011)

Hello and thank you for the extremely informative posts.
I have a few questions on my first grow regarding flushing and replacing my organic nutrients to inorganic.
Some general info: Using ebb and flow with rockwool cubes (roughly 5x5 inch squares) and plants that are 4 days into 12/12 light cycle.

After reading about the Lucas formula I've decided that on my next res change I'll be switching from organic nutrients to the Flora series from General Hydroponics (which I understand is inorganic). I'd also like to use H2O2 as preventative measures. Since I'm using RW as my medium. What would you recommend flushing with? I've read that using 1/4 strength nutrient solution would get rid of more salt buildup than just regular water. What I had in mind was roughly 1 gallon per plant of Ph'd 1/4 strength nutrient solution to flush. Do you think this is enough since RW is such a moisture retaining medium? Should I use both the Bloom/Micro combination when making this weak solution in order to flush? I'm worried about residual organic nutrients being exposed to the H2O2 which I hope to introduce on my next res change so I want to make sure my medium is flushed out enough.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to help!


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 16, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> K say I up the H202 dose from 7ml to ?ml per gal with 29%
> at what point if there is will it be a waist, knowing it
> wont hurt the plants.


Did you read my last post to you?



Encomium said:


> Hello and thank you for the extremely informative posts.
> I have a few questions on my first grow regarding flushing and replacing my organic nutrients to inorganic.
> Some general info: Using ebb and flow with rockwool cubes (roughly 5x5 inch squares) and plants that are 4 days into 12/12 light cycle.
> 
> ...


Flushing isn't necessary. You can change nute types at will. Flushing with plain water will cause an ionic imbalance in the rootmass and suck nutes out of the plant. Just change nutes to inorganic and keep using them. Don't use the Lucas silliness. Mix to the mfr's specifications. They have done this before!


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 17, 2011)

guess there was some cofusion in my Question, what I was asking was knowing theres no danger to my plants at a higher amount, and adding more will
help solve the issue with the slime. how high of a dose have you done?


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## medicine21 (Mar 17, 2011)

pdillo said:


> Compost! If u don't have a yard for a compost bin, u can drive yer gro specific trash to a dumpster.





Al B. Fuct said:


> All my plant waste (a solidly packed 10L bucket every 2 weeks) goes through a branch chipper, then into the compost. The branch chipper shreds everything into a relatively fine mulch that breaks down in compost really fast, about a week or so until the plant matter is unrecognisable as cannabis cuttings.


Never made compost. Will it stink of weed?


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## Encomium (Mar 17, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Flushing isn't necessary. You can change nute types at will. Flushing with plain water will cause an ionic imbalance in the rootmass and suck nutes out of the plant. Just change nutes to inorganic and keep using them. Don't use the Lucas silliness. Mix to the mfr's specifications. They have done this before!


Thank you for the info. I'm primarily flushing to remove possible salt buildups in my rockwool. As for the Lucas formula I figured it was the easiest method of measuring and maintaining nutrient solution for a newbie like me. The appeal of having to worry about only 2 nutrients rather than 3 plus additives seems rather nice. 

Cheers.

PS. - So I tried ph balancing my GH Micro/Bloom solution and noticed that no matter how much Ph Down (organic) I added it never had any effect? Do I need to get Inorganic PH Up/Down to resolve this?


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## skiweeds (Mar 17, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No, it's not possible to graft hundreds of plants together. Impractical. When LEO is counting plants, they're counting rootmasses.


i agree, it would be impractical, and i would never do it, but wouldnt it only count as 1 root mass from the stock plant? of coarse get rid of all root masses of the scions(plants to be grafted) so LEOs dont know. im not experienced with grafting, but its pretty much just sticking the branch of a plant, into another plant right?

on a side note, i say its impractical because if someone wants a big plant, why not just use the LST technique. only down side is longer veg time.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 17, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> guess there was some cofusion in my Question, what I was asking was knowing theres no danger to my plants at a higher amount, and adding more will
> help solve the issue with the slime. how high of a dose have you done?


 I already told you. 



medicine21 said:


> Never made compost. Will it stink of weed?


 Nope.



Encomium said:


> Thank you for the info. I'm primarily flushing to remove possible salt buildups in my rockwool. As for the Lucas formula I figured it was the easiest method of measuring and maintaining nutrient solution for a newbie like me. The appeal of having to worry about only 2 nutrients rather than 3 plus additives seems rather nice.


Follow GH's mixing instructions, not Lucas. 




> PS. - So I tried ph balancing my GH Micro/Bloom solution and noticed that no matter how much Ph Down (organic) I added it never had any effect? Do I need to get Inorganic PH Up/Down to resolve this?


pH Down is phosphoric acid. Added to a nute soln (or plain water), it will lower the pH (make it more acidic). If your pH meter does not measure a drop in pH, either the pH Down sauce you have is bad or the meter is broken. Test the meter with a known value calibration solution. You will need pH 4.0 & 7.0 calibration solutions to calibrate your meter. Please don't bother with 'colour match' pH measurement kits. Get a proper pH meter and learn how to use it. 



skiweeds said:


> i agree, it would be impractical, and i would never do it, but wouldnt it only count as 1 root mass from the stock plant? of coarse get rid of all root masses of the scions(plants to be grafted) so LEOs dont know. im not experienced with grafting, but its pretty much just sticking the branch of a plant, into another plant right?


Won't work. Wasting your time.


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## hellraizer30 (Mar 17, 2011)

k well I back track the thread and you said you can up it by a factor of 10. but my Q and I cant find a answer that has been given on how high you
have ever gone with the H202, if this has been already somewhere stated I cant find it.


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## Encomium (Mar 18, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> pH Down is phosphoric acid. Added to a nute soln (or plain water), it will lower the pH (make it more acidic). If your pH meter does not measure a drop in pH, either the pH Down sauce you have is bad or the meter is broken. Test the meter with a known value calibration solution. You will need pH 4.0 & 7.0 calibration solutions to calibrate your meter. Please don't bother with 'colour match' pH measurement kits. Get a proper pH meter and learn how to use it.


Yea I have a Milwaukee brand Ph meter that I recalibrated right after coming up with no results adding Ph down to my 1/4 strength GH nute solution. Frustrated I added a hefty quantity of Ph Down to the bottle and absolutely nothing happened. Interestingly, adding the same solution to one of my reservoirs did end up with the result I wanted. (reservoir was using organic nutes and the Ph Down labeled "use with botanicare line nutrients" blah blah). I went out and purchased GH Ph Up/Down, dumped the other 1/4 strength nute solution and restarted. The new Ph down worked as intended leaving me with the conclusion that organic Ph up/down doesn't work with inorganic nutrients.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2011)

Encomium said:


> The new Ph down worked as intended leaving me with the conclusion that organic Ph up/down doesn't work with inorganic nutrients.


I don't think it's a case of nutrient incompatibility. Try some with plain water. If it doesn't shift the pH, the 'organic' pH down is no good (i.e. just a bottle of water). 

The retail hydroponic supplies industry is rife with opportunities for sellers to commit outright fraud. Face it, if you're using the goo to grow cannabis, exactly _what_ consumer protection agency are you going to whinge to?


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## sparkafire (Mar 18, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The retail hydroponic supplies industry is rife with opportunities for sellers to commit outright fraud. Face it, if you're using the goo to grow cannabis, exactly _what_ consumer protection agency are you going to whinge to?


I always report all indiscretions of the hydroponic nature to the YJGF agency, they seem to be on top of it.


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## DIRTHAWKER (Mar 18, 2011)

Hey AL thanks for the response regarding switching to inorganic...and i will. I was reading up on the harvest a lb every 2 week thread.. and i think you mentioned that you never add nutrients to a half eaten reservoir beacuse you never really know whats in there. my question is how do keep your ppm levels up and steady (1000PPM)during the 2 weeks between res changes? I run a sealed room with co2 and the plants drink up alot of water. I have to top off my tanks every other night and this will throw off the ppms.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2011)

sparkafire said:


> I always report all indiscretions of the hydroponic nature to the YJGF agency, they seem to be on top of it.


What's a YJGF?



DIRTHAWKER said:


> Hey AL thanks for the response regarding switching to inorganic...and i will. I was reading up on the harvest a lb every 2 week thread.. and i think you mentioned that you never add nutrients to a half eaten reservoir beacuse you never really know whats in there. my question is how do keep your ppm levels up and steady (1000PPM)during the 2 weeks between res changes? I run a sealed room with co2 and the plants drink up alot of water. I have to top off my tanks every other night and this will throw off the ppms.


If your res size is well matched to the number of plants, the TDS will remain relatively constant as the solution level drops. 5L/plant is about right. If the TDS is remaining constant as the nute level drops, you don't need to top up. If the TDS is rising as the level drops, the res tank is too small. If TDS is falling as the res level drops, the tank is too large for your application.


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## sparkafire (Mar 18, 2011)

Its the Y ou J ust G ot F uct agency the number is 800 -You - Fuct.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2011)

sparkafire said:


> Its the Y ou J ust G ot F uct agency the number is 800 -You - Fuct.


Funny, sparks. 

Just so the reading public knows, there is no affiliation between YGJF and Fuct Heavy Industries Pty Ltd.


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## jojodancer10 (Mar 18, 2011)

hello family, hello DR. al. got a qusetion? my ph with my moms get high every 3 days i dont know why. so i just keep lowering the ph back down to 5.4! my mpms are in 5gal buckets hydro farm with hydrton. food i use is gh. anyone can help?


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2011)

jojodancer10 said:


> hello family, hello DR. al. got a qusetion? my ph with my moms get high every 3 days i dont know why. so i just keep lowering the ph back down to 5.4! my mpms are in 5gal buckets hydro farm with hydrton. food i use is gh. anyone can help?


Rising pH is indicative of a high level of pathogen infection in the roots- root rot. This is usually caused by poor drainage or bad system design where roots are allowed to sit in stagnant water (water which has lost all dissolved oxygen). Replace the watering system with one where roots cannot sit in stagnant water, i.e. tray-based flood & drain system. Treat nute solution with 50% grade H2O2 @1ml/L. Treating the nute soln with H2O2 will not by itself fix the problem- the watering system must be replaced with something that will not allow the roots to sit in stagnant water.


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## pdillo (Mar 18, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Try some pantyhose material stretched tightly across the intake. Should pass enough air but will catch larger dust particles. Works on my bud dryer. Clean or replace the filter material periodically. You can tell if you're not getting enough air if the surfaces of the cooltube get warm.


Thanks, heres what I ended up coming up with, put some pantyhose material over the intake end of the tube. The 2 foot wide batwing doesnt quite have the spread of a adjust-a-wing, but a million times better than the reflector that came with the thing:





Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, I take the buds off the stem before putting them in the dryer. When I manicure, the fan leaves and larger bud leaves get trimmed off first, then I snip the buds off the stems and finish leaf removal. This way, once the dryer has done its job, the buds are ready to bag up or smoke.


Thanks again. I may as wel show you this fuct inspired bud dryer I made out of this food dehydrator I found at a thrift store. The heating element is hooked up to a dimmer and the dimmer to a thermostat. Has a 120mm axial blowing air thru a carbon scrubber.




And of course a totally fuct clone box:


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2011)

Noice work, pdillo.


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## pdillo (Mar 19, 2011)

Thank ya. Who knows how I would be killing plants these days if I had never read your threads.  

Are you still doing around 2.6 plants per square foot? Do you think 4 per square foot is really enough room to get decent light penetration? Also, how important do you think light-proofing the res is when running h2o2?


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## jojodancer10 (Mar 20, 2011)

DR. al i have a waterfarm system for my mom's with a 6inch air stone that runs 24/7, how can i have rot root? no disrespect. and one more question , i dont know if you were asked this question before but, what are your thoughts on the lucas formula? or should i stick with the directions on the lable


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## joe macclennan (Mar 22, 2011)

pdillo said:


> Thank ya. Who knows how I would be killing plants these days if I had never read your threads.
> 
> Are you still doing around 2.6 plants per square foot? Do you think 4 per square foot is really enough room to get decent light penetration? Also, how important do you think light-proofing the res is when running h2o2?


i believe al runs sog so 4 per sq.ft would be perfect.but if you plan on topping or cloning off of yours it may not be enough room


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 22, 2011)

pdillo said:


> Are you still doing around 2.6 plants per square foot?


 Yep. 



> Do you think 4 per square foot is really enough room to get decent light penetration?


 While you can do it, it's a bit tight for my tastes and can lead to poor bud density down low on the plants. 



> Also, how important do you think light-proofing the res is when running h2o2?


 Not very. If you're getting algae groth in the tanks, block light to them. If not, they're probably shaded enough for you to not bother. 



jojodancer10 said:


> DR. al i have a waterfarm system for my mom's with a 6inch air stone that runs 24/7, how can i have rot root?


Waterfarm can allow roots to grow down into the res below the media container, leading them to be constantly submerged. When this happens, Waterfarm begins acting like a bubbler instead of a drip system given the presence of the airstone. In this case, adding H2O2 50% grade @ 1ml/L to the res every 3-4 days becomes critical to prevent root rot, as does 100% reliable 24/7 air supply to the roots.

Just looked back at your post I replied to the other day (hurriedly) and noted you are setting your pH at 5.4. No. should be 5.8. 

I'm willing to bet that if you inspect your rootmasses, you find some root rot. Check for funky smell. Few things cause pH to bump up as you describe quite as reliably as root disease. Fungus gnats aka sciarid fly can also spread fungi into the rootmasses. Result is the same. 



joe macclennan said:


> i believe al runs sog so 4 per sq.ft would be perfect.but if you plan on topping or cloning off of yours it may not be enough room


Hi Joe. While I appreciate you wanting to participate and be helpful, kindly let me address questions directed at me. Get a couple of years under your belt, reliably growing successfully before you start answering queries.


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## whuh (Mar 22, 2011)

Hey Al. So with 2 mothers, to take 16 clones every 2 weeks (8 from each plant) should I use a 250w or 400w? The clones will also be in the same area.... It's a 3x3x7 box.


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## Shwagbag (Mar 22, 2011)

OMG welcome back Al, I've been here a couple months, read many of your posts, thank you for contributing!  Any recommendations where to get H202 50%?


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## jojodancer10 (Mar 22, 2011)

thanks Al , i will get my ph up to 5.8 asap.. i alos bought some root zone from D.M and hygrozome that seems to be working but i will go buy h202. thanks for all your help al !


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## joe macclennan (Mar 22, 2011)

sorry al didnt mean to step on toes.i am definitely still learning even after 8 years.


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## DIRTHAWKER (Mar 23, 2011)

Al or anyone who knows. Can you switch from organic nutes to inorganic nutes after the plants have been vegging for 4 weeks with organic (botanicare)?

I want to experiment with these plants ready to go into flower with Canna aguas and H2O2 . Im hoping that the root slime im getting at week 4 when the roots fill the post and cause poor slow drainage (and slime) will be resolved.


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## pdillo (Mar 23, 2011)

Hey Al, another random question for ya: When running a thermostatic dimmer and an intake fan, can you hook 1 thermostatic dimmer up to BOTH your intake (axial) and your exhaust (centrifugal)? Or would dimming 2 motors with the same fan speed controller create 'issues'? (Assuming you are working within the amperage rating of the thermostatic dimmer, of course)

Also wanted to ask a question about ozone generators, do you happen to know why Uvonair ozone generators soooo much more expensive than the Cap OZN-1 generators? Both are UV, yet the Cap generator claims to cover about twice the area for about half the price. The reason I ask is cuz I'm thinking about adding an ozone unit on top of my carbon scrubber for super-duper odor control , good idea? Oh yeah, I should mention I grow in a basement, so ozone would be distributed to my basement/crawl space&#8230; I imagine an added bonus would be killing mold n' other dankness&#8230; but should I worry about the o3 seeping up into the living area?


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## flamdrags420 (Mar 23, 2011)

pdillo said:


> Hey Al, another random question for ya: When running a thermostatic dimmer and an intake fan, can you hook 1 thermostatic dimmer up to BOTH your intake (axial) and your exhaust (centrifugal)? Or would dimming 2 motors with the same fan speed controller create 'issues'? (Assuming you are working within the amperage rating of the thermostatic dimmer, of course)
> 
> Also wanted to ask a question about ozone generators, do you happen to know why Uvonair ozone generators soooo much more expensive than the Cap OZN-1 generators? Both are UV, yet the Cap generator claims to cover about twice the area for about half the price. The reason I ask is cuz I'm thinking about adding an ozone unit on top of my carbon scrubber for super-duper odor control , good idea?


I have almost the same question. I was wondering if you could go one step further and run 1 power bar outlet on 1 speed controller thus attempting to control the settings for multiple fans.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 23, 2011)

whuh said:


> Hey Al. So with 2 mothers, to take 16 clones every 2 weeks (8 from each plant) should I use a 250w or 400w? The clones will also be in the same area.... It's a 3x3x7 box.


 For 16 cuttings every 2 weeks, I'd run about 4-5 mums. Functionally, you may only need 3 well-developed mums, but you need room for a couple of mums that are being raised up as replacements. I'd not want to try to do clones in the same space as the mums. Clones are a bit more finicky about temp control and it's easier to control temp in a separate, smaller clone box. 



Shwagbag said:


> OMG welcome back Al, I've been here a couple months, read many of your posts, thank you for contributing!  Any recommendations where to get H202 50%?


 Apparently, it's hard to get 50% in Nth America for some stupid reason. 29% is common and available in (shudder) health food shops, where they sell it intending for people to DRINK the stuff (which you shouldn't EVER do). The dosage for 50% grade is 1ml/L. 50/29=1.72 so for 29% H2O2, use 1.7ml/L. 



jojodancer10 said:


> thanks Al , i will get my ph up to 5.8 asap.. i alos bought some root zone from D.M and hygrozome that seems to be working but i will go buy h202. thanks for all your help al !


 Beware magic sauces. H2O2 always works. Of course, in case you're not aware, you cannot use H2O2 with organic nutes. 



DIRTHAWKER said:


> Al or anyone who knows. Can you switch from organic nutes to inorganic nutes after the plants have been vegging for 4 weeks with organic (botanicare)?


 Yep, no problem. 



> I want to experiment with these plants ready to go into flower with Canna aguas and H2O2 . Im hoping that the root slime im getting at week 4 when the roots fill the post and cause poor slow drainage (and slime) will be resolved.


 H2O2 & inorganic nutes will fix things right up. 



pdillo said:


> Hey Al, another random question for ya: When running a thermostatic dimmer and an intake fan, can you hook 1 thermostatic dimmer up to BOTH your intake (axial) and your exhaust (centrifugal)? Or would dimming 2 motors with the same fan speed controller create 'issues'? (Assuming you are working within the amperage rating of the thermostatic dimmer, of course)


..thermostatic dimmer? huh?

Dimmers will not work as motor speed controllers (MSCs). 

You can use a single motor speed controller to control multiple fan motors, within the current handling capacity of the MSC. 



> Also wanted to ask a question about ozone generators, do you happen to know why Uvonair ozone generators soooo much more expensive than the Cap OZN-1 generators? Both are UV, yet the Cap generator claims to cover about twice the area for about half the price. The reason I ask is cuz I'm thinking about adding an ozone unit on top of my carbon scrubber for super-duper odor control , good idea? Oh yeah, I should mention I grow in a basement, so ozone would be distributed to my basement/crawl space&#8230; I imagine an added bonus would be killing mold n' other dankness&#8230; but should I worry about the o3 seeping up into the living area?


Good question. If they're both UV based, there's no reason to pay more for the Uvonair. Quite often, inexpensive O3 generators are of the high-voltage type, which will generate nitrogen oxides and thus nitric acid when NOx combines with H2O vapour. 

It's true that you do not want to be breathing O3. However, if there's reasonably good airmass isolation between the basement and habitable spaces, it should be OK. Also, O3 molecules are broken down when they come in contact with susceptible, oxidisable molecules, thus consuming the O3 (and doing so rather quickly, I might add). My O3 gens do a great job at both killing scents and mould/fungi. If you ever detect the scent of O3 in the living spaces, put the O3 generator on a timer and run it perhaps 30mins/hr. Adjust duty cycle as required.



flamdrags420 said:


> I have almost the same question. I was wondering if you could go one step further and run 1 power bar outlet on 1 speed controller thus attempting to control the settings for multiple fans.


Yes, you can do that, no problem. However, you may find that different fan motors respond to running on a single MSC by spinning at different speeds. Make sure that no fans stall or spin too slowly as this may cause their armatures to overheat. It may work out better in the end to just use separate MSCs. They're not that expensive.


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## pdillo (Mar 23, 2011)

Cool, thank ya. 

Right, thermostatic fan motor speed controller would of been the more proper label I've learned the hard how to melt incandescent dimmers, haha


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## flamdrags420 (Mar 23, 2011)

Thanks AL. Keep it rockin man.


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## fictionalgrower (Mar 23, 2011)

I have read this entire thread today and I have to say Al my hat is off to you sir. I want to ask you what your feelings are about DWC? The reason I ask is that I am currently growing a micro SoG in soil / party cups under my 400w HPS but it's a shitload of work and I too am a lazy stoner. DWC seems to be pretty dummy proof and requires no maintenance other than changing out the reservoir (and obviously setting the correct ppm and PH in each "change"). I have absolutely nothing against the ebb and flow system, my interest is solely on simplicity and the fact that I already have everything for a DWC setup (sterilite containers, air stones, air pumps etc..). I just don't want to have to buy a water pump and another timer if I don't really need to. If I used inorganic nutrients and the 29% peroxide available here in the states I should still be fine right? If I am missing something here please point out my flawed logic.

I appreciate you taking the time to read my trivial question


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## DIRTHAWKER (Mar 23, 2011)

Mad farmer has some 35% h202 called oxygenator. It here in the states, i just dont know if its exactly the right stuff or not?


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## don2009 (Mar 23, 2011)

fictionalgrower said:


> I have read this entire thread today and I have to say Al my hat is off to you sir. I want to ask you what your feelings are about DWC? The reason I ask is that I am currently growing a micro SoG in soil / party cups under my 400w HPS but it's a shitload of work and I too am a lazy stoner. DWC seems to be pretty dummy proof and requires no maintenance other than changing out the reservoir (and obviously setting the correct ppm and PH in each "change"). I have absolutely nothing against the ebb and flow system, my interest is solely on simplicity and the fact that I already have everything for a DWC setup (sterilite containers, air stones, air pumps etc..). I just don't want to have to buy a water pump and another timer if I don't really need to. If I used inorganic nutrients and the 29% peroxide available here in the states I should still be fine right? If I am missing something here please point out my flawed logic.
> 
> I appreciate you taking the time to read my trivial question


Thanks fictionalgrower I wanted to ask the same question to Al, but I want my DWC in like a 9 plant SOG all in 1 resvior a long resv and put a couple good airstone in there. Not only I think its easier to maintain but the growth and the roots come out way better to me Im doing aeropnics and a couple single bucket DWC and I luv the way it grows DWC style faster, simple, and it just seems bigger and frostyer buds to me but I want multiple plants in a big resv will that be ok thanks Al, and Fctgrower


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## pdillo (Mar 23, 2011)

DIRTHAWKER said:


> Mad farmer has some 35% h202 called oxygenator. It here in the states, i just dont know if its exactly the right stuff or not?


Yep: "_Oxygenator_ is a 35% hydrogen peroxide solution. Hydrogen peroxide adds dissolved _oxygen_ to your nutrient solution as well as kills any unwanted bacteria."

Most people say they cant find high grade H2O2, but what they mean is they cant find it for sale online (besides those fools who sell it to drink). Thats because H2O2 generally falls into the 'hazardous chemical' category and shipping hazardous chemicals is highly regulated here in the states. I was able to find H2O2 by doing a search for 'chemical supply' in my city on google maps and poking around. I found a chemical supply house that sold 35% for about $15 a gallon. There where several other local chemical places that sold it, and my town is nothing special! Quite a bit cheaper than oxygenator too


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## Indefinately (Mar 24, 2011)

Hey Al,

I went to the trouble of setting up a nice little grow op.
I just doubled your grow thinking I would be at least 1 and a half your yield since I'm no "expert".
Instead I have a bunch of equip just sitting there because I'm not very productive.
And have had poor results cloning.
My flower room is now empty and has been for a fortnight.

Another issue may be that I smoke pot every day and that would make me "A Lazy Stoner" also........

How do you manage your time and motivate yourself once the "hype" runs out.
I'm about to give up growing...... 
Problem is I will eventually run out of smoke..... Lol

I only wish I could be as productive as your op.
How much time does your op take to be running smoothly?

All the best to ya mate....
Thanks for your help.


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## fictionalgrower (Mar 24, 2011)

btw subscribed.


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## Phat B (Mar 26, 2011)

Hey Al. Love your F.A.Q. and this thread. Had a quick question about the amount of PH Down I'm using. I have a 24 Liter rez and I have to use 15ml of ph down to get the water from 7.6 down to 5.6. Reading your previous posts it seems like this is an absurd amount of ph down to be using. Is there some type of problem with my rez or is ph down just a "different strokes for different water sources" type of deal? I'm testing with a calibrated milwaukee ph meter and I ran a backup test using a pool kit just to double check.


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## Illegal Smile (Mar 27, 2011)

Al, A question from way back at the beginning of the thread where you said to change the water every two weeks because if you feed on top of partially eaten nutes you will have the wrong NPK ratio. I confess that I have been trying the wrong way with no bad results. I'm only changing water once from seed to harvest. I'm not getting the mega yields I see talked about, but I can't imagine the plants looking healthier or the product being better. I've always wondered - don't plants eat what they want and need regardless (within reason) of how much of what is in the water?


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## fictionalgrower (Mar 28, 2011)

Looks like I asked my question a day too late. Come back Al!


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## flamdrags420 (Mar 28, 2011)

Hey AL, how's spring time this year around for ya? If you have any extra sun out there send some over this way. It's still cold and depressing.
A while back, you were talking about the savings and power consumption of magnetic and digital ballasts. I was wondering if and when you get caught up on more important questions that you could talk about running devices on 115V versus 240V. I see a lot of ballasts come with options for both as do other appliances and devices. I know that some countries are 240V by default where as in the US it's mainly 115V. I hear the reason for these differences is for the most part cost and safety.
Could you elaborate on this please? I don't see or perhaps don't understand how there is a running cost savings of running things at 240V if the pricing is the same per KWH. Meaning at least to me P=IE so I could have a device that is 1000W at 115V and 8.7A or the same device at 1000W at 240V and 4.2A. They are same no?
Thanks for any info you could provide.


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## Shwagbag (Mar 28, 2011)

It looks like Al is gone again for awhile and we're on our own. Anyone here ever use insulated coolers as their reservoirs? I need to keep my reservoirs inside my confined space and I'm concerned about the nute solution getting too warm under 1000w.


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## infinitescrog (Mar 28, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> It looks like Al is gone again for awhile and we're on our own. Anyone here ever use insulated coolers as their reservoirs? I need to keep my reservoirs inside my confined space and I'm concerned about the nute solution getting too warm under 1000w.


 Lot's of people do this, there is a group or thread dedicated to the use of coolers as a dwc res. Most take the lid off, and cut their own from styrofoam w/ net pot holes.


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## Shwagbag (Mar 28, 2011)

infinitescrog said:


> Lot's of people do this, there is a group or thread dedicated to the use of coolers as a dwc res. Most take the lid off, and cut their own from styrofoam w/ net pot holes.


Cool I will keep looking around. I plan to do ebb and flow, a smaller version of Al's setup and i would feel more comfortable using a cooler than a regular tote for temp reAsons. Thanks for the comments.


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## defcomexperiment (Mar 29, 2011)

i use coolers, and i use the lids that come stock. best deal ive found is for jungle green coleman 5 day coolers from walmart for abou $50, they are 120qt or 30gal. i just get a hole saw for whatever size netpots... the inside of the lids on the 5 days is styro.

edited to add:
you can check my journal for information about feedings and other info about my coolers...


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## Cannabis Enthusiast (Mar 31, 2011)

Can someone please give me some direction as to why this is happening to my headband plant. ph is 5.7-5.9, ppm around 600, room temp 76-80, rh about 40%. I'm using GH 3 part nutes



Thanks for any suggestions


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## pdillo (Mar 31, 2011)

Cannabis Enthusiast said:


> Can someone please give me some direction as to why this is happening to my headband plant. ph is 5.7-5.9, ppm around 600, room temp 76-80, rh about 40%. I'm using GH 3 part nutes
> 
> View attachment 1525045View attachment 1525046
> 
> Thanks for any suggestions


It looks kinda like heat stress, but you shouldnt be having heat stress at 76-80. I might recommend raising your PPM to 1000, several nutrient deficiencies cause leaf curl.


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## mihjaro (Mar 31, 2011)

Cannabis Enthusiast said:


> Can someone please give me some direction as to why this is happening to my headband plant. ph is 5.7-5.9, ppm around 600, room temp 76-80, rh about 40%. I'm using GH 3 part nutes
> 
> View attachment 1525045View attachment 1525046


CalMag usually gets rid of that for me.


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## DIRTHAWKER (May 29, 2011)

DIRTHAWKER said:


> Al or anyone who knows. Can you switch from organic nutes to inorganic nutes after the plants have been vegging for 4 weeks with organic (botanicare)?
> 
> I want to experiment with these plants ready to go into flower with Canna aguas and H2O2 . Im hoping that the root slime im getting at week 4 when the roots fill the post and cause poor slow drainage (and slime) will be resolved.


I recently started a new grow and switched from the full botanicare line of (organics) to Canna aquas (inorganic).
I did this so that i could supplement with 35% h202 and keep things nice and clean.

Its been 10 days now (with the canna aquas) and i have had major defiencies from day one. Ive been battling red stems and pale geen leaves with stunted growth. Ive added epsom salt (1/4 tsp per gallon in one reservoir... cal mag in another.. flushed etc etc etc...still weak stunted growth!!! My tap water is 350 with a ph of 6.8. From my understanding my tap water should work well with the the canna aquas line??? Im stumped??

I switched one of my 3 systems back to botanicare , and after 2 days the plants started recovering and became vigorous again. Im very dissapointed beacuse i really wanted to run the canna with h202..to fight off the bad bennies. Also spent a good chunk of change on it.


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## DarthJemima (May 30, 2011)

bump too much knowledge here not to bump....


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## DIRTHAWKER (May 31, 2011)

DIRTHAWKER said:


> I recently started a new grow and switched from the full botanicare line of (organics) to Canna aquas (inorganic).
> I did this so that i could supplement with 35% h202 and keep things nice and clean.
> 
> Its been 10 days now (with the canna aquas) and i have had major defiencies from day one. Ive been battling red stems and pale geen leaves with stunted growth. Ive added epsom salt (1/4 tsp per gallon in one reservoir... cal mag in another.. flushed etc etc etc...still weak stunted growth!!! My tap water is 350 with a ph of 6.8. From my understanding my tap water should work well with the the canna aquas line??? Im stumped??
> ...


Its only fair to say that i was wrong in my statement about the canna. It turns out that i am infested with root bugs from clones i bought from a local idiot!! I thought it was defiencies but it was the bugs. Time to start over.


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## Shwagbag (May 31, 2011)

DIRTHAWKER said:


> Its only fair to say that i was wrong in my statement about the canna. It turns out that i am infested with root bugs from clones i bought from a local idiot!! I thought it was defiencies but it was the bugs. Time to start over.


What kind of root bugs you talkin bout Willis?


----------



## DIRTHAWKER (May 31, 2011)

Root aphids


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## RancidGoatPiss (Jun 8, 2011)

Has anyone run Als system of just using Canna base nutes and h202? I want to run this in my aeroflo system and am thinking of adding an inorganic bloom booster/yield enhancer to Als formula. Any ideas on which ones work best with Canna that are inorganic. Cannas own boost is organic based.


----------



## purple ranger (Jul 21, 2011)

here is a good question for you advanced peeps:

i have a uvonair system, i mainly got it to clean the stinky exhaust air form my portable a/c unit. my only question now, before i turn my a/c unit on is: will the heat from the a/c's exhaust harm the uvonair system at all?


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## Clown Baby (Jul 21, 2011)

RancidGoatPiss said:


> Has anyone run Als system of just using Canna base nutes and h202? I want to run this in my aeroflo system and am thinking of adding an inorganic bloom booster/yield enhancer to Als formula. Any ideas on which ones work best with Canna that are inorganic. Cannas own boost is organic based.


try pk 13/14. 
Or any PK booster where the bottle says "derived from monopotassium phosphate" <--- that's a salt that has P and K. Lots of bloom boosters are derived from this. Lots of regular bloom fertilizers use this for P and K as well.


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## trichome fiend (Jul 28, 2011)

....thankx again Al!


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## don2009 (Jul 29, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....thankx again Al!
> 
> 
> View attachment 1709482View attachment 1709481View attachment 1709480View attachment 1709479View attachment 1709478


Nice how much yield did you get from that and how many watts and plants? Good job


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## potroast (Jul 31, 2011)

purple ranger said:


> here is a good question for you advanced peeps:
> 
> i have a uvonair system, i mainly got it to clean the stinky exhaust air form my portable a/c unit. my only question now, before i turn my a/c unit on is: will the heat from the a/c's exhaust harm the uvonair system at all?


I don't think the hot air will hurt your uvonair, after all it's just a fluorescent tube with a little fan. However, the problem with cleaning air using ozone is that the air must be in contact with the ozone long enough for it to oxidize the odors. Simply passing air through a duct that contains ozone may not be a long enough time to do that. You can do it best by exhausting your A/C to a room with the ozone generator running in it, and then exhausting that room.


----------



## doniawon (Jul 31, 2011)

If im using synthetics and peroxide would UV sterilization also be a good idea?


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## doser (Jul 31, 2011)

Back Again?


----------



## tenthirty (Jul 31, 2011)

> *If im using synthetics and peroxide would UV sterilization also be a good idea?*


It couldn't hurt and this is exactly what I'm doing. 2mil/gal 35% h2o2 every day keeps the h2o2 at around 100ppm and the solution is clear with a fresh clean smell to it.


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## potroast (Aug 1, 2011)

I don't know why you would need a UV sterilizer if you are using H2O2.


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## tenthirty (Aug 1, 2011)

> *I don't know why you would need a UV sterilizer if you are using H2O2.*


I have it already, so why not?


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## trichome fiend (Aug 17, 2011)

...Ohhhh, it smells so good! I just can't get enough of all these damn colas! Al.B.Fuct, you da' man! 
yield = 1-3/4 lbs. (under 1200 watts)


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## Shwagbag (Aug 17, 2011)

Duuuude nice work! Do you use Al's cloning system too? I still have a hard time getting clones to take in a reasonable amount of time.


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## trichome fiend (Aug 17, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> Duuuude nice work! Do you use Al's cloning system too? I still have a hard time getting clones to take in a reasonable amount of time.


...my cloner, is an 80 site ezcloner....it operates like a typical aeroponic cloner. 
...I keep a heating missle in the cloner set @ 70F +.... I use pure RO water w/ 1ml h2o2 per gallon....put under 23watt t-8 fluros....in 7-10 days = roots....once I see roots, I give 1/4 strength solution


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## Shwagbag (Aug 17, 2011)

Do you use a cycling timer or do you run constant? Do you have heat issues or cold issues? I have a hard time keeping the water cool, I think it gets too warm. h2o2 is the shit! Does it do a good job keeping the algae away? Last question for now lol, if you are in the states where do you get your H2o2?

Thanks for the input!


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## trichome fiend (Aug 17, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> Do you use a cycling timer or do you run constant? Do you have heat issues or cold issues? I have a hard time keeping the water cool, I think it gets too warm. h2o2 is the shit! Does it do a good job keeping the algae away? Last question for now lol, if you are in the states where do you get your H2o2?
> 
> Thanks for the input!


...I run the pump 24/7. I have only had issues with low temps effecting the rooting speed (in the winter ofcourse)...I believe my temps also run high in the summer, but I have not seen any ill effects, my understanding is that clones like it warm....yes, h2o2 works well, just don't forget to add every 3-4 days throughout the whole grow, no fungi here. Hope things get better for ya!


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## Shwagbag (Aug 17, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I run the pump 24/7. I have only had issues with low temps effecting the rooting speed (in the winter ofcourse)...I believe my temps also run high in the summer, but I have not seen any ill effects, my understanding is that clones like it warm....yes, h2o2 works well, just don't forget to add every 3-4 days throughout the whole grow, no fungi here. Hope things get better for ya!



Are you in the states? If so where do you get the damn H2o2?


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## trichome fiend (Aug 17, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Nice how much yield did you get from that and how many watts and plants? Good job


...between 3/4 lb.- 1 lb. per 600 watt HPS, 20 ladies each table/light. Thanks.


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## trichome fiend (Aug 17, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> Are you in the states? If so where do you get the damn H2o2?


 
...lol, I go to Walmart....lol, I use the 3% hydrogen peroxide.


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## Shwagbag (Aug 17, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...lol, I go to Walmart....lol, I use the 3% hydrogen peroxide.


Ahhhh, gotcha, that didn't do jack for me lol. I need that fitty cent!


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## trichome fiend (Aug 17, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> Ahhhh, gotcha, that didn't do jack for me lol. I need that fitty cent!


...hygrozyme is always an option, but expensive.


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## Shwagbag (Aug 17, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...hygrozyme is always an option, but expensive.


Thanks for the advice, I don't understand why every goddamn grow store doesn't stock 50% HP. Silly!


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## don2009 (Aug 18, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...lol, I go to Walmart....lol, I use the 3% hydrogen peroxide.


Same here cant work with out it, the stuff works well for me.


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## weednublet (Aug 18, 2011)

It's 5ml/gallon for H202, right? I'll prolly have to use the 3% too.


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## Shwagbag (Aug 18, 2011)

Yes, I'm curious what ratio do you use for the 3%. I'm going to stop at the local hippie food store today and see if they have the 50%.


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## trichome fiend (Aug 18, 2011)

weednublet said:


> It's 5ml/gallon for H202, right? I'll prolly have to use the 3% too.


...I can't remember what Al uses here, but...I use 1 milliliter of h2o2 per gallon of solution in my res. (3%) ...it's been doing the trick for some time now


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## weednublet (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks dude.


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## suTraGrow (Aug 18, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I can't remember what Al uses here, but...I use 1 milliliter of h2o2 per gallon of solution in my res. (3%) ...it's been doing the trick for some time now


 Al uses 35% h2O2 at 5-7ml per gallon. 
Ive been using 35% H2O2 at 8ml per gallon for the past 19 months and have been experiencing superior results.


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## trichome fiend (Aug 18, 2011)

suTraGrow said:


> Al uses 35% h2O2 at 5-7ml per gallon.
> Ive been using 35% H2O2 at 8ml per gallon for the past 19 months and have been experiencing superior results.


...nice big'o plant there! ...well, if your temps and oxygen levels are in check within your res...one wouldn't need h202 at all.


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## suTraGrow (Aug 18, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...nice big'o plant there! ...well, if your temps and oxygen levels are in check within your res...one wouldn't need h202 at all.
> 
> View attachment 1741322 View attachment 1741328 View attachment 1741329 View attachment 1741331 View attachment 1741332


 IMO any preventive measure against pathogen should always be applied . But hey to each their own.


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## don2009 (Aug 18, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...nice big'o plant there! ...well, if your temps and oxygen levels are in check within your res...one wouldn't need h202 at all.
> 
> View attachment 1741322 View attachment 1741328 View attachment 1741329 View attachment 1741331 View attachment 1741332


Hey what size pots are those and what mediem you use and do you use rooter plugs or rockwool? Thanks for the info and +rep


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## Shwagbag (Aug 18, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...nice big'o plant there! ...well, if your temps and oxygen levels are in check within your res...one wouldn't need h202 at all.
> 
> View attachment 1741322 View attachment 1741328 View attachment 1741329 View attachment 1741331 View attachment 1741332


Those are just lovely, really maximizes the potential of a 600 too. Well done my friend! What is the link in your sig? Do you have a journal?


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## trichome fiend (Aug 19, 2011)

*@ don2009*
...I've tried many different pots but the above pots in post #247 were 5" x 5". 
...now I grow in fence post, these pics below are my technique ( I use 3" netted pots to support my ladies, no rooters/rockwool )


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## trichome fiend (Aug 19, 2011)

*@ Shwagbag*
...thanks!...efficiency is my goal ...the link in my sig is a torrent download of the book, "Teaming with Microbes"...very good info on organics (for my veg garden)...I also started a thread on the book here --> https://www.rollitup.org/organics/427826-soil-food-web-gardening-compost.html


...yeah, I once had a journal here. My profile was deleted for some reason and I've ventured off elsewhere since, but I still nose around Al's threads.


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## trichome fiend (Aug 20, 2011)




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## Shwagbag (Aug 21, 2011)

Ahahahah wtf?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2011)

Just so you know, I'm not dead. I just don't have time to reply to all the questions I usually get when I post here. 

It's not hard for me to wind up putting 4-8/day into cannabis boards- and I quite frankly have other shit to do. 

I'm really kinda annoyed at the infiltration of pseudoscience into the posts that appear in my absence; I could take a solid week in debunk mode. 

This is SCIENCE, folks. Treat it that way. Think critically and seek evidence before accepting a new technique or using a new product in your op. Evidence, by the by, is not 1000 hits on Google. It's stuff you can cross-check with info you get from agricultural or horticultural university resources, NOT adverts on a hydro supplier's website. 

I've threatened for some years to write a grow book. When I can put about 3 months of nose-to-the grindstone writing in, I just might.


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## suTraGrow (Sep 17, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Just so you know, I'm not dead. I just don't have time to reply to all the questions I usually get when I post here.
> 
> It's not hard for me to wind up putting 4-8/day into cannabis boards- and I quite frankly have other shit to do.
> 
> ...


You're back  always a pleasure. 
Much has change since last time you popped in. We got a mob of neo Nazis now (about 60 mods lol ) But yes still extremely entertaining .
Anyways like i said before glad to have a legend of your statue back and, looking forward to your future posts. Hope you'll stay here for a good while


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 17, 2011)

Yep, potroast popped me a note to let me know. I've apparently been appointed a neo-nazi myself, so WATCH YOUR ASS. xD


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## suTraGrow (Sep 17, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, potroast popped me a note to let me know. I've apparently been appointed a neo-nazi myself, so WATCH YOUR ASS. xD


 Haha nice, Congrats


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## Swiezy (Sep 18, 2011)

Can somebody tell me what is the approx. cost of Al's OP from nothing? Preferably in british pounds but it is not necessary. More answers is better. My calculation is 2000 pounds but mayby I missed something. Thanks.


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## negrodamusCBG (Sep 18, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> * Chlorinated municipal tap water is fine for hydroponics. Fancy water filtration systems are completely unnecessary. Chlorine, in the amounts applied by muni water treatment plants, is completely harmless to plants and people. High TDS readings from 'hard' water are caused primarily by dissolved minerals like Ca and Mg, both of which are necessary micronutrients. Any water suitable for drinking is excellent for hydroponics. The only reason one would _ever_ have to ever use expensive RO or filtration systems is if one is sourcing water from a local bore/well, where water may contain high levels of salinity or sulfur. In 25 years of growing dope, I've never once seen tapwater from a municipal system cause problems in a hydroponic grow op.


you forget about fluoride in the tap, which, according to the EPA (a bullshit agency who lied to 911 workers) if you handle you must wear hazmat suits because it is classified by them as a poison. that's a fact.

if anyone is wondering how to find out call your utility provider and ask them, check their website as well sometimes it's on there usually under water quality lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N4Jj1UPbDTc

and depending on where you live, radiation. here in the pnw we are getting shat on by fukishima, tonns of radioactive iodine 131, some cesium. 

filtered water is your best bet or buy a reverse osmosis filter. they really work and you can buy them online.

chlorine is actually really toxic to the plants and us, but im not sure if it sticks like fluoride. probably.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 18, 2011)

welcome back al b hope you stick around!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> Can somebody tell me what is the approx. cost of Al's OP from nothing? Preferably in british pounds but it is not necessary. More answers is better. My calculation is 2000 pounds but mayby I missed something. Thanks.


 That's probably not too far off. 



negrodamusCBG said:


> you forget about fluoride in the tap


Easy to do because fluoride in the amounts in muni tapwater is harmless to plants and highly beneficial to dental health. Same for the levels of chlorine in muni tapwater. Harmless to plants and humans- and the absence of it would create a public health hazard of the likes you see in the 3rd world

Take your tinfoil hatted batshit crazy nonsense elsewhere- because I don't have a nanosecond for it. 



hellraizer30 said:


> welcome back al b hope you stick around!!


Thanks. Will drop in as I can.


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## trichome fiend (Sep 18, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> Can somebody tell me what is the approx. cost of Al's OP from nothing? Preferably in british pounds but it is not necessary. More answers is better. My calculation is 2000 pounds but mayby I missed something. Thanks.


....alot of variables there. I'd say that's a good start.

EDIT: kiss-ass Hi Al!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 18, 2011)

Heya, TF. 

While I realise you had every good intention by posing that 'ass kiss' gif, I gotta tell ya, that one makes me a tick uncomfortable every time someone posts it in a note pointed at me. 

I have never demanded respect (no one can, it can only be earned) and often feel the praise thrown at me on RIU can be a little over the top. I'm glad folks get some use out of my commentary on here, but I got news for ya, my shit still stinks.


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## panhead (Sep 18, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Take your tinfoil hatted batshit crazy nonsense elsewhere- because I don't have a nanosecond for it.


Thats the Al we all know 

Last i knew you were taking a job as webmaster or some shit,is that over now ?
Good to see ya back al 

Hey al i got a question,you allways refer to peroxide in the 50% range,is this something you've found outside normal hydroponic manufacturers or am i just blind.

All ive ever been able to find is 30%,ive had a bunch of different shops check for me with no luck,whats the name brand of that shit.


----------



## don2009 (Sep 18, 2011)

kiss-asskiss-asskiss-assWe still love your shit Al! Is there any changes in your op? Im on my way to your full scale op thanks bro. You should make a book on that 2 wk harvest bro its a classic. Thanks for donating your time I personally appreciate you to the fullest. Good luck.


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## trichome fiend (Sep 19, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Heya, TF.
> 
> While I realise you had every good intention by posing that 'ass kiss' gif, I gotta tell ya, that one makes me a tick uncomfortable every time someone posts it in a note pointed at me.
> 
> I have never demanded respect (no one can, it can only be earned) and often feel the praise thrown at me on RIU can be a little over the top. I'm glad folks get some use out of my commentary on here, but I got news for ya, my shit still stinks.


...what a humble lad....much respect.  (punch in the arm)


----------



## Swiezy (Sep 19, 2011)

Ok it is good to hear that. don2009 asked very good question. I am impatient to hear answer for that as well. What about legalizing money from OP? It is quite a lot of money annually. In my opinion it is necessary, isn't it? Do you have any ideas? Many many thanks for sharing info with us.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2011)

panhead said:


> Thats the Al we all know
> 
> Last i knew you were taking a job as webmaster or some shit,is that over now ?


 No, still doing it, but things have slowed down a bit. 



panhead said:


> Good to see ya back al


 Good to see you too, mang. 



panhead said:


> Hey al i got a question,you allways refer to peroxide in the 50% range,is this something you've found outside normal hydroponic manufacturers or am i just blind.
> 
> All ive ever been able to find is 30%,ive had a bunch of different shops check for me with no luck,whats the name brand of that shit.


 You can get 50% grade in Australia but I understand that stronger than 30% is limited access in the US. The claim is that 50% could be used to make the explosive TATP. I'm not into amateur bomb-making, so I don't know if the claim is exaggerated or not. 



don2009 said:


> We still love your shit Al! Is there any changes in your op? Im on my way to your full scale op thanks bro. You should make a book on that 2 wk harvest bro its a classic. Thanks for donating your time I personally appreciate you to the fullest. Good luck.


You wouldn't love my shit if you smelled it. 

No changes in the op to speak of, other than replacing a dehumidifier that shat itself a few weeks ago. No functional changes. 

I'd write a grow book but there's no financial motivation for me to do so. In the digital age, I'd sell one copy and it'd instantly go out on BitTorrent. 

Thanks for the thanks. 



Swiezy said:


> Ok it is good to hear that. don2009 asked very good question. I am impatient to hear answer for that as well.


Which question was that?



Swiezy said:


> What about legalizing money from OP? It is quite a lot of money annually. In my opinion it is necessary, isn't it? Do you have any ideas? Many many thanks for sharing info with us.


I can't really offer you much advice on money laundering, aside from dissipating income in cash- in small amounts. For example, I'd never go buy a new car with cash, though I could if I wanted to. The key is to draw as little attention to yourself as possible.


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## don2009 (Sep 19, 2011)

Hey Al do you still use floc? And at the grow shop they have this rockwool small square cubes similair to floc from the way you explain it. What do you think of that? And I use hydroton now, when I change to that how many times a day should I feed?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Hey Al do you still use floc? And at the grow shop they have this rockwool small square cubes similair to floc from the way you explain it. What do you think of that? And I use hydroton now, when I change to that how many times a day should I feed?


I use floc alone for the mother plants as they really need the water capacity and anchoring support for a well-developed plant. In between batches of cuttings, they can get really topheavy. Just before I do a pass of cuttings, they'll be close to a metre tall and sucking up 2-3L/day each. After cuttings, they're back down to about 200mm tall. Even though they're in floc, they get watered 2x/day at 12h intervals. Running under 24h light, they can use it all. 

For the flowering plants, I pack about 25m of floc in the bottom of the pots and fill the rest with Fytocell. Floc generally holds too much water for the comparatively smaller flowering plants, which is the reason for the Fytocell. My flowering plants are only watered 1x/day for about 3 mins.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 19, 2011)

were can fytocell be sold at? just never seen it before


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2011)

Fytocell is usually found at hydroponics shops. It's available rather widely in Australia, but if you're not in Aus, you'll have to check the web to see where it is sold in your area.


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## Indefinately (Sep 20, 2011)

Hey Al,

What dehumidifier did you buy?

I left my "room" un-attended for 4 days and came to realise the Exhaust fans ducting had ripped and therefore i wasnt exhausting at all.
So my ceiling was covered in mildew.....( well is i guess/ as i havent cleaned it yet)
I have since fixed the exhaust but think i i'll need to get a dehumidifier.

I tried to "duplicate" your OP.
I have all the equipment.
BUT
I smoke to much pot and have a job that require 12-14 hours a day.......
SO i guess i will never be able to duplicate your op.

Im growing some trees at the moment ( been really Lazy )....
I will have some fresh grass soon.
All different strains that i havent tried before......

Main Point being : I think People UNDER ESTIMATE how much TIME is required for an OP your size or larger...

Hope you pop in when you can, TAKE CARE!


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 20, 2011)

Doesnt seem to be sold in the us from what ive seen still checking the net


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 20, 2011)

Ok is the reason you put the flock or grodan flock on the bottom to hold a bit more moisture, but do you also
Use it to stop loose fine particle from going back to the res and geting into your pumps?


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## *BUDS (Sep 20, 2011)

Al, can i use a fan forced oven to dry buds in 3-4 days like your drying box if i can keep temps at 26-27(lowest setting) for the 3-4 days and air out the house?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2011)

Indefinately said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> What dehumidifier did you buy?


 Just a garden variety 10L/day dehumidifier from the whitegoods shop. I think this one is a DeLonghi brand. 



> I left my "room" un-attended for 4 days and came to realise the Exhaust fans ducting had ripped and therefore i wasnt exhausting at all.
> So my ceiling was covered in mildew.....( well is i guess/ as i havent cleaned it yet)
> I have since fixed the exhaust but think i i'll need to get a dehumidifier.


 Dehumidifiers are useful even when your ventilation is working properly, especially during lights-off in cool times of the year. During lights off, your thermostatically controlled ventilation may not trigger. A dehumidifier will stop any 'overnight' humidity spikes. 



> I tried to "duplicate" your OP.
> I have all the equipment.
> BUT
> I smoke to much pot and have a job that require 12-14 hours a day.......
> SO i guess i will never be able to duplicate your op.


 Look, if you're motivated, you can do an op like mine with 30 mins/day regular maintenance and a marathon harvest session every 2 weeks, probably on weekends for you. You'll put 14-16h in manicuring one tray of flowering plants. You will have little time to sit around stoned, tho. 



> Main Point being : I think People UNDER ESTIMATE how much TIME is required for an OP your size or larger...


 True, it does take a chunk out of your life. You never get holidays, either. Clones have to be watered every day at 12h intervals. Miss a watering & you can lose a whole batch. 



hellraizer30 said:


> Doesnt seem to be sold in the us from what ive seen still checking the net


 There were a couple of places carrying it when I checked a cpl yrs ago; they may have closed up shop, tho. You can use perlite instead of Fytocell if you like. It behaves similarly. 



hellraizer30 said:


> Ok is the reason you put the flock or grodan flock on the bottom to hold a bit more moisture, but do you also
> Use it to stop loose fine particle from going back to the res and geting into your pumps?


The floc in the bottoms of the flowering plant pots is there mainly to keep crumbs of Fytocell from falling out of the pot drain holes. It floats, so any I have spilled it usually just stays in the tray, but the few crumbs might get washed down into the rez won't generally cause any problems for the pumps. Fytocell is a resin foam type material and is not abrasive, unlike some things like perlite & vermiculite. 



*BUDS said:


> Al, can i use a fan forced oven to dry buds in 3-4 days like your drying box if i can keep temps at 26-27(lowest setting) for the 3-4 days and air out the house?


If you can be sure that the 'fan forced oven' will not exceed 29C, it should work OK, but I don't like your chances of keeping an oven reliably below 29C.


----------



## RavenMochi (Sep 20, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Just a garden variety 10L/day dehumidifier from the whitegoods shop. I think this one is a DeLonghi brand.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Al, maybe you should have your handle changed to Q&A 
Seriously, or start up a 900 hotline, you'd make a killing.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 20, 2011)

RavenMochi said:


> Al, maybe you should have your handle changed to Q&A
> Seriously, or start up a 900 hotline, you'd make a killing.


Heh, thanks- but to be deadly honest, I don't need the $ that bad.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 20, 2011)

thanks al b. for the info


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## Indefinately (Sep 20, 2011)

*BUDS said:


> Al, can i use a fan forced oven to dry buds in 3-4 days like your drying box if i can keep temps at 26-27(lowest setting) for the 3-4 days and air out the house?


I Have dried a small ammount of bud in the oven when i have been out of dried/cured bud.
It isnt worth destroying the quality of your BUD to save your self 7-10 days to dry naturally or 2-3 days in a dry box.
I made a dry box with no thermostat or heater. Just a tote with a fan on both sides ( Like Al's ).
I put the dry box in a closet where the temps are between 21-28 degrees celsius and the humidity is 30-55 ( not too bad ).
Then i put an ozone machine on low just outside the closet as the smell gets "crazy" ....LOL.

THANKS for the reply Al.......


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## *BUDS (Sep 20, 2011)

Yeah i agree 1-2 days would kill it and the oven sounds a bit much , Al said 3-4 days drying and it comes out nice,perfect. If i can keep temps of oven <29cel(i tested it with thermometer for an hour,26 and steady) no damage will be done ,if it dries too much just put it in air tight container for a day with a wet tissue/paper towel and its ready for smoking. Just temporary ,im making a' drying box' for next harvest.


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## william69er (Sep 20, 2011)

Hay al b this is just another one of those "your the man!!" posts that you get alot of so just thort I'd put mine up.yep copying your grow but only have one 600 over 32 babys and a 400 over the mothers.also doing your cloning tecnique as well but useing humidity domes becuase the box is to big for the heat mats to warm up. Useing house and garden nutes becuse the local store has boycott canna(Nz sales rep is a penis apprently).my only qestion I have is what are the ppms for your trays? Right through eg clones=0ppm tray one=***ppm,tray two=***ppm,tray three=***ppm,tray four=***ppm?? Oh and how low do you think any one could run the nutes on the mothers??

Just to reiterate YOU ARE THE MAN!!


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## Budologist420 (Sep 20, 2011)

* Chlorinated municipal tap water is fine for hydroponics. Fancy water filtration systems are completely unnecessary. Chlorine, in the amounts applied by muni water treatment plants, is completely harmless to plants and people. High TDS readings from 'hard' water are caused primarily by dissolved minerals like Ca and Mg, both of which are necessary micronutrients. Any water suitable for drinking is excellent for hydroponics. The only reason one would _ever_ have to ever use expensive RO or filtration systems is if one is sourcing water from a local bore/well, where water may contain high levels of salinity or sulfur. In 25 years of growing dope, I've never once seen tapwater from a municipal system cause problems in a hydroponic grow op. 





does this apply for outdoor soil as well.

if so this paragraph is going to save me a lot of money and time.


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## william69er (Sep 21, 2011)

Iv been running from a freash water spring for about 3 months now.only problem is when the land lord dosnt turns the pump on harf way through filling the res and we run out of water grrr. But it's FREE water so I'm not complaning one bit!!


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## tree king (Sep 21, 2011)

al thanks alot for answering everyones questions. i have some questions for you if you dont mind. theres alot but ive been trying to figure this stuff out for months so im hoping you can help me out

im running an ebb and flow system using 4'' squared rockwool cubes and i have a serious fungus gnats problem that i cant get rid of. what would you do to get rid of them for good or at least make it so there not powerful enough to effect a crop? im thinking its a great idea to start spreading Diatomaceous Earth on top of each cube

can gnatrol be combined with h202 in the res? that would be a great duo to get rid of fungus gnats

can i run h202 with rock supercharge root tonic? im not sure whats in it but its a similar product to home & gardens root excelerator

theres a person similar to you on another forum that i go to for advice and i consider him almost an expert when it comes to nutrients and growing in general. he told me that it was ok to combine hygrozyme and h202 because he says theres nothing alive to kill in hygrozyme. i read earlier in this thread that you said they cant be combined. what are your thought on this and are you 100% sure there not compatible? 

im noticing alot of green algea in my res and its totally uncovered. since im using a water chiller can i cover the res to get rid of the algea?

do you use a water chiller or just run the h202 without it? what is your res temp?

and probably the most important question of all. i cant figure out for the life of me when i should be uping my nutes in flower. i do sea of green with no veg. is there a way to figure out when to up nutes by looking at what the ppm in the res is doing? ive never finished a crop without some tip burn 3-4 weeks in. ive heard alot of people say that if the ppm goes up when res gets depleated then your overfeeding and if the ppm goes down as res gets depleated then you have to up nutes. they say you want the ppm to stay the same as the res goes down. this didnt make sense to me because they were talking about without topping off. ive never had my ppm not go up as the res goes down ever. i cant start my plants with more than 300 ppm or else i get tip burn but i dont know how to tell when to increase nutes after that. and trust me i cant start my plants at 1000ppm like you, i think its cause it depends on the type of nutes your using and im using advanced nutrients. what are your thoughts on this?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2011)

william69er said:


> my only qestion I have is what are the ppms for your trays? Right through eg clones=0ppm tray one=***ppm,tray two=***ppm,tray three=***ppm,tray four=***ppm?? Oh and how low do you think any one could run the nutes on the mothers??
> 
> Just to reiterate YOU ARE THE MAN!!


 Thanks for the praise. 

All my flowering plants run at 1000ppm. Mother plants run at about 1200; they're under 24/7 light and don't mind the stronger nutes. I spoze they could run at about 800, tho. 



Budologist420 said:


> * Chlorinated municipal tap water is fine for hydroponics. Fancy water filtration systems are completely unnecessary. Chlorine, in the amounts applied by muni water treatment plants, is completely harmless to plants and people. High TDS readings from 'hard' water are caused primarily by dissolved minerals like Ca and Mg, both of which are necessary micronutrients. Any water suitable for drinking is excellent for hydroponics. The only reason one would _ever_ have to ever use expensive RO or filtration systems is if one is sourcing water from a local bore/well, where water may contain high levels of salinity or sulfur. In 25 years of growing dope, I've never once seen tapwater from a municipal system cause problems in a hydroponic grow op.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, outdoor plants will do fine with muni tapwater. My veg garden does fine with tapwater during those times when there hasn't been enough rain. 



tree king said:


> al thanks alot for answering everyones questions. i have some questions for you if you dont mind. theres alot but ive been trying to figure this stuff out for months so im hoping you can help me out
> 
> im running an ebb and flow system using 4'' squared rockwool cubes and i have a serious fungus gnats problem that i cant get rid of. what would you do to get rid of them for good or at least make it so there not powerful enough to effect a crop? im thinking its a great idea to start spreading Diatomaceous Earth on top of each cube


Get some yellow sticky card traps; they will trap enough of the adults that it will put a dent in their reproductive cycle. 



> can gnatrol be combined with h202 in the res? that would be a great duo to get rid of fungus gnats


From what I can find out about Gnatrol, it's an organic-based goo. If so, it's not compatible with H2O2. H2O2 doesn't have any effect on gnats beyond killing fungus & thus eliminating their food source. 



> can i run h202 with rock supercharge root tonic? im not sure whats in it but its a similar product to home & gardens root excelerator





> theres a person similar to you on another forum that i go to for advice and i consider him almost an expert when it comes to nutrients and growing in general. he told me that it was ok to combine hygrozyme and h202 because he says theres nothing alive to kill in hygrozyme. i read earlier in this thread that you said they cant be combined. what are your thought on this and are you 100% sure there not compatible?


Hygrozyme is an enzymatic agent. Enzymes are proteins. H2O2 will break down proteins- they're organic matter. 



> im noticing alot of green algea in my res and its totally uncovered. since im using a water chiller can i cover the res to get rid of the algea?


Block the light getting to your rez. When you change nute solns, clean the tank with a 10% bleach/90% water solution with a few drops of dish soap added as a wetting agent. 

do you use a water chiller or just run the h202 without it? what is your res temp?



> and probably the most important question of all. i cant figure out for the life of me when i should be uping my nutes in flower. i do sea of green with no veg. is there a way to figure out when to up nutes by looking at what the ppm in the res is doing? ive never finished a crop without some tip burn 3-4 weeks in. ive heard alot of people say that if the ppm goes up when res gets depleated then your overfeeding and if the ppm goes down as res gets depleated then you have to up nutes. they say you want the ppm to stay the same as the res goes down. this didnt make sense to me because they were talking about without topping off. ive never had my ppm not go up as the res goes down ever. i cant start my plants with more than 300 ppm or else i get tip burn but i dont know how to tell when to increase nutes after that. and trust me i cant start my plants at 1000ppm like you, i think its cause it depends on the type of nutes your using and im using advanced nutrients. what are your thoughts on this?


The concentration in the tank over the life of a batch of nutes varies by a couple of factors; what nutes the plants eat and the ratio of water to nutrients in the tank. Water exits via transpiration through the plants and through direct evaporation from the tank & media. If your tank is too small for the number of plants you're running, the ppm will tend to rise over the several days after you mix a fresh batch. What's happening is the ratio of water:nutes is changing as a result of water used by the plants and lost through evaporation. The plants are not eating the nutes as fast as they can can consume water, increasing the concentration of nutes in solution. I've found that about 5L of tank volume per plant, using a 1000ppm concentration, is about ideal. The plants will eat nutes as a similar comparative rate to their water usage and thus, the ppm will stay pretty close to 1000ppm, even as the tank level drops. 

1000 isn't terribly strong, but it's enough to supply all that the plant will demand. That's why I can get away with running all tanks at 1000, even the one for the newest clones. Bear in mind that clones are mature plants from the get-go- you've just given the plant a new root system in the cloning process. I would not hit a SEEDLING with 1000, but clones do just fine.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2011)

On Gnatrol: It's a competitive bacteria preparation. From the MSDS:



> *Active Ingredient:
> Bacillus thuringiensis, subsp. israelensis, strain AM 65-52
> fermentation solids, spores and insecticidal toxins . . . . . 37.4%
> Other Ingredients . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 62.6%
> Total . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 100.0%*


H2O2 will kill the Bacillus thuringiensis bacteria.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2011)

While we're on nutes, I think it's appropriate to comment (again) that plants are not V8 engines. Plants do NOT do better with more 'fuel.' There's a bell-curve to plants; too little, just right and _*dead. *_You will lose more yield by nute burning than by slightly underfeeding. It's much better to run a moderate ppm than try to push your luck. 

MOAR IS NOT BETTERER. 

Mkay?


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## Beansly (Sep 23, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> While we're on nutes, I think it's appropriate to comment (again) that plants are not V8 engines. Plants do NOT do better with more 'fuel.' There's a bell-curve to plants; too little, just right and _*dead. *_You will lose more yield by nute burning than by slightly underfeeding. It's much better to run a moderate ppm than try to push your luck.
> 
> MOAR IS NOT BETTERER.
> 
> Mkay?


Jeez, idk know when you came back but I'm glad you're here.


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## tree king (Sep 23, 2011)

Al B. Fuct, thanks alot for answering my questions but you didnt fully answer one of them. it might be the way im asking it thats confusing you so let me try to ask as clear as possible. how do you know when to up nutes when doing hydro? i know you run the same ppm the entire time in flower but what if you started them at 500ppm and then you wanted to slowly up it along the way as the plants need more? what do the plants do or what does the ppm's in the res do to give you a signal that the plants need more nutes to be fully healthy? what im basically asking is how do you know when a plant isnt getting enough nutes in hydro?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2011)

tree king said:


> Al B. Fuct, thanks alot for answering my questions but you didnt fully answer one of them. it might be the way im asking it thats confusing you so let me try to ask as clear as possible. how do you know when to up nutes when doing hydro? i know you run the same ppm the entire time in flower but what if you started them at 500ppm and then you wanted to slowly up it along the way as the plants need more? what do the plants do or what does the ppm's in the res do to give you a signal that the plants need more nutes to be fully healthy? what im basically asking is how do you know when a plant isnt getting enough nutes in hydro?


A plant that's not getting enough nitrogen will generally appear yellowish/sallow. 

If you run your tanks at 1000ppm, you simply won't see nute deficiencies. 

In most cases where a grower thinks they've seen deficiencies, 99% of the time, it's a pH problem. The magic number for cannabis in hydroponics is 5.8. Running the pH too low or too high will cause nute lockout. 

1000ppm @ 5.8 and you're golden.


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## tree king (Sep 23, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> A plant that's not getting enough nitrogen will generally appear yellowish/sallow.
> 
> If you run your tanks at 1000ppm, you simply won't see nute deficiencies.
> 
> ...


by your answer im taking it that there is no way to know when to raise nutes unless the plant looks yellow or theres something wrong with it. i was hoping you were gonna tell me a way to know when to up nutes before the plant shows deficiencies but i guess theres no way. just to add theres no way in hell my clones can handle any where near 1000 ppm. im pretty sure it depends on what kind of nutes you give them and from what company. ive burned the crap out of my plants with just 400-500 ppms so now you see why im trying to figure out when to up them without burning them because i start my ppm at 200. thanks for your help


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2011)

That's right! If the plant is thriving, does not show signs of nute burn or deficiency, the nute strength is correct. 

Remember what I just said about 'too little, just right and _*dead*_? It really is that simple. 

If you're burning plants at 400-500ppm, there's something else wrong. Bad meter, pH wrong, etc. Get good meters and use (fresh) reference solutions for calibration.


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## tree king (Sep 23, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> That's right! If the plant is thriving, does not show signs of nute burn or deficiency, the nute strength is correct.
> 
> Remember what I just said about 'too little, just right and _*dead*_? It really is that simple.
> 
> If you're burning plants at 400-500ppm, there's something else wrong. Bad meter, pH wrong, etc. Get good meters and use (fresh) reference solutions for calibration.


all i can say is i wish you would use advanced nutrients sensi 2 part one time like i do so you can see what im talkin about. i tried out a nute called bc nutrients before and i had it up to 1500ppm with no nute burn but with the sensi 2 part you cant give the same ppm for some reason or else the plants get fried. a.n also has a product called connoisseur and everyone says its extremely strong and whatever ppm you give your plants with sensi 2 part you can only give them half the ppm with connoisseur. i dont know why this happens but i can assure you its true. this is why its important to know when to raise the nutes and i cant find an easy way to tell so far other than seeing how much lower the ppm is after top off. 

what kind of nutes do you use al?


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## panhead (Sep 23, 2011)

Not to step on al's toe here but there is no "Real" method to running a multi ppm nute cycle based on plant growth,ive found out in my grows that running multi ppm phases causes alot of shit on the plants.

If you must run multi ppm growth phases you raise nutes by watching leaf/bud development,for instance in veg when the plant starts stacking nodes fast you can up the N value of your mix .

Same goes for bud,once pistil & calyx formation kicks into high gear is when you would increase the P & K ratios of your mix,unfortunately most times the increases just fuck the overall NPK ratios up which causes an unbalanced nute mix.

This is whats happening with the Advanced Nutrient crap,i only used their sauce once & it fucked me over too,when you start off with a bad NPK ratio to start with alot of corrective actions are needed to set things right.

Use a standard feeding regime along with a better balanced nutrient & things will go alot better,even 1,000 is screaming hot unless you have had the strain going a long time & know all the little tells of the plants.


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## tree king (Sep 23, 2011)

i hear you panhead, thats what i actually do to. i wait till the plants get alot bigger before i even up it to 300 but most of the time as soon as i get to the 4-500 ppm area i start to see tip burn. the highest i ever went in flower safely was 700 and it was a heavy eating strain. i got some blubonic and double strawberry diesel plants in flower right now that are almost 3 ft tall and i burned the shit out of them with 500ppm. since then im keeping them at 400 till they finish. it seems like the only thing i can do is if they get burned then i know next crop that i cant take them that high you know. i will point out though that mothers in the past i had them at 1000 no problem but only 700 max in flower with a little veg time


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## tenthirty (Sep 23, 2011)

Al,

Just to clarify, when you talk about 1000ppm you are using are using a .7 conversion. A.K.A. 1.5 EC.

Thanks


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## churchhaze (Sep 23, 2011)

The fuct-iest thing about the cannabis growing community is that they pay top dollar for diluted name brand solutions or even for their powders.

I got a 50 pound bag of calcium nitrate for about 30 dollars last year. (for example) That's thousands of gallons of GH flora micro which is mostly just calcium nitrate. A one pound bag of potassium nitrate is equivalent to a LOT of GH flora gro (which is mostly potassium nitrate). You learn quickly what happens when you add more or less iron, etc. Basically all the deficiency threads I see on pot forums end with "just go get calmag" and when it works, they confirm "yes, it must have been a magnesium deficiency after all". And yes, they probably wouldn't have deficiency if they followed the GH recipe instead of lucas 

So which is better AN or GH? Are you serious? The way we're marketed hydroponic nutrients is similar to homeopathic medicines that are basically one drop of some scent in a giant bottle water sold for big bucks.

It does take a bit of time making recipes and fine tuning.. I think I wouldn't have thought to use this much iron had I only been getting it in the ratio of a GH flora micro formula.


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## don2009 (Sep 24, 2011)

Hey Al is there any other threads or forum your at? And do you browse around the new post and talk shit sometimes? Your a scientist bro I like when you broke down the ppm info a few post ago about the water evaporating and how some of the water can stay in the medium then you think there drinking water when there not, I never thought of that Im still learning so IDK if thats common sense to others but new to me. Good one.


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## Rick Ratlin (Sep 25, 2011)

al, I'm having trouble with my cool tube/ adjust a wing set up. I'm not sure how much space to leave between the glass and the aaw. I've also got some hot spots, but not directly under the bulb, only on the sides. Which holes do you use in the wing to attach the wire, there are multiple options, and I'm not sure which is best as I don't have a light meter. I also can't make both the cool tube and aaw level, so should I shoot to make the aaw or the tube level? Thanks for Stayin around!


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## tree king (Sep 26, 2011)

something just popped in my head to ask you al. i know you recommend 6.8 ml of 29% h202 per gal for maintenance but is that enough to kill fungas gnat larvae in the medium? if not how much would you use per gallon to kill the actual larvae if you have a problem?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 28, 2011)

tree king said:


> all i can say is i wish you would use advanced nutrients sensi 2 part one time like i do so you can see what im talkin about. i tried out a nute called bc nutrients before and i had it up to 1500ppm with no nute burn but with the sensi 2 part you cant give the same ppm for some reason or else the plants get fried. a.n also has a product called connoisseur and everyone says its extremely strong and whatever ppm you give your plants with sensi 2 part you can only give them half the ppm with connoisseur. i dont know why this happens but i can assure you its true. this is why its important to know when to raise the nutes and i cant find an easy way to tell so far other than seeing how much lower the ppm is after top off.
> 
> what kind of nutes do you use al?


 Hydroponic nutrient mixes are all more or less the same. They're solutions designed to present N, P & K to plants in certain ratios along with some micronutes. Often, pH buffers are included. A TDS meter will give you an idea of the concentration of nutrient salts in the solution by virtue of the electrical conductivity caused by the dissolved salts. If a nutrient is sold as NPK 10-20-10 and you mix it for 1000ppm, it's going to be chemically very similar to any other 10-20-10 mixed for 1000ppm. 

I use Canna nutes.



panhead said:


> Not to step on al's toe here but there is no "Real" method to running a multi ppm nute cycle based on plant growth,ive found out in my grows that running multi ppm phases causes alot of shit on the plants.
> 
> If you must run multi ppm growth phases you raise nutes by watching leaf/bud development,for instance in veg when the plant starts stacking nodes fast you can up the N value of your mix .
> 
> ...


 Toes not stepped, panster. 

I've used Canna for the last 10 yrs because of consistency of performance. 



tenthirty said:


> Al,
> 
> Just to clarify, when you talk about 1000ppm you are using are using a .7 conversion. A.K.A. 1.5 EC.
> 
> Thanks


 I read 1000ppm directly off the meter, a Bluelab (fmrly NZ Hydroponics) Truncheon. Their TDS meter is the gold standard. Avoid the pH Truncheon, tho. Junk. 



churchhaze said:


> The fuct-iest thing about the cannabis growing community is that they pay top dollar for diluted name brand solutions or even for their powders.
> 
> I got a 50 pound bag of calcium nitrate for about 30 dollars last year. (for example) That's thousands of gallons of GH flora micro which is mostly just calcium nitrate. A one pound bag of potassium nitrate is equivalent to a LOT of GH flora gro (which is mostly potassium nitrate). You learn quickly what happens when you add more or less iron, etc. Basically all the deficiency threads I see on pot forums end with "just go get calmag" and when it works, they confirm "yes, it must have been a magnesium deficiency after all". And yes, they probably wouldn't have deficiency if they followed the GH recipe instead of lucas
> .


 Ca & Mg 'deficiencies' are readily caused by pH errors. CalMag etc are usually unnecessary if using muni tapwater. There's usually plenty of both in muni tapwater due to water passing through reservoirs, rivers, etc. CalMag might be needed if you're using rainwater or have an RO system (which is unnecessary unless you're using high-salinity bore/well water). 



don2009 said:


> Hey Al is there any other threads or forum your at? And do you browse around the new post and talk shit sometimes?


 Talk shit? Really?



Rick Ratlin said:


> al, I'm having trouble with my cool tube/ adjust a wing set up. I'm not sure how much space to leave between the glass and the aaw.


 The cooltube can be fitted in direct contact with the central fold in the AAW. 



> I've also got some hot spots, but not directly under the bulb, only on the sides.


 That's a bit of a surprise. The strongest part of the pattern from the lamp is in the middle of the quartz tube. 



> Which holes do you use in the wing to attach the wire, there are multiple options, and I'm not sure which is best as I don't have a light meter.


 I drilled holes in the AAW to match the location of the pem nuts in the cooltube, which are normally used for suspension eyebolts.



> I also can't make both the cool tube and aaw level, so should I shoot to make the aaw or the tube level? Thanks for Stayin around!


 Yes, the tube can often sag a bit in the socket, particularly a problem with 1000HPS bottles because of their weight. You may want to organise a support for the far end of the tube; a chunk of glass or ceramic might work. Don't use any metal up against the tube envelope. 



tree king said:


> something just popped in my head to ask you al. i know you recommend 6.8 ml of 29% h202 per gal for maintenance but is that enough to kill fungas gnat larvae in the medium? if not how much would you use per gallon to kill the actual larvae if you have a problem?


H2O2 is not an insecticide and won't kill gnat larvae. Bayer's Alsystin will get the little bastards. H2O2 will only control fungus, which the gnats both spread & eat.


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## tree king (Sep 28, 2011)

thanks al.


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## don2009 (Sep 28, 2011)

Hey Al I just got my 2nd 1k watt light up and Im parionoid now. So is there any precaution you go by? Say if the law comes by or anything like that, sometimes I feel like shuting down because of my parnoid, but I know im good I have a business and a nice size home and no drama around but still a little p-noid what do you do?


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## Rick Ratlin (Sep 28, 2011)

About the adjust a wing, How much of a parabola do you give it, there are multiple options on the edge of the wing, supposedly to simulate the seasons, are your two aawings bent the same. mabe a close up pic? Thanks Al!


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## tenthirty (Sep 29, 2011)

> *I read 1000ppm directly off the meter, a Bluelab (fmrly NZ Hydroponics) Truncheon. Their TDS meter is the gold standard. Avoid the pH Truncheon, tho. Junk. *


Thank you sir!! That would be a .7 conversion. Almost 1.5 EC.


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## Highhopes99 (Sep 29, 2011)

Nice to see you back Al,


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## Highhopes99 (Sep 29, 2011)

Yourself and Homebrewer are the only veteran growers on this site that have any luck with rookwool ( or at least used to ) why do you think this is? I water it once every 2 days and still have root issues. I'm going to perlite because fytocell is impossible to find in north america.


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## hellraizer30 (Sep 29, 2011)

I use rockwool with awsome luck! I would love to give fytocell a shot but like ou said its not avalible


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## tree king (Sep 30, 2011)

deleted post


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## drgreentm (Sep 30, 2011)

tree king said:


> al ive had extremely bad results using 4 inch squared rockwool cubes in flower. straight brown discusting roots and real bad overwatering problems. i havent used h202 yet but i plant to next crop but even still i never want to use rockwool again. what do you recommend using instead? just so you know i want to do 36 plants in a 4 x 4 space with no veg. im hoping you know some sort of cubes or something like that so i dont have to use pots of some sort


 use some of the little trays that go inside a clone tray and hold rapid rooters and line your flood tray with them so that your RW blocks are not sitting on a flat surface. this helps break the water tension in the blocks and they will drain much faster. I water my 4x4x4 cubes 3x a day with great results. this also allows your roots (instead of being stuck inside the block) to grow into the little cups and your plants can grow much larger while the roots are safely tucked into the cups so no light can get into them.


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## tree king (Sep 30, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> use some of the little trays that go inside a clone tray and hold rapid rooters and line your flood tray with them so that your RW blocks are not sitting on a flat surface. this helps break the water tension in the blocks and they will drain much faster. I water my 4x4x4 cubes 3x a day with great results. this also allows your roots (instead of being stuck inside the block) to grow into the little cups and your plants can grow much larger while the roots are safely tucked into the cups so no light can get into them.


thats pretty original i never saw someone do that before. how high does the water go up the cube when you water? to be totally honest though id like to get rid of the rockwool all together

have you ever tried those coco tek cubes?


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## drgreentm (Oct 1, 2011)

tree king said:


> thats pretty original i never saw someone do that before. how high does the water go up the cube when you water? to be totally honest though id like to get rid of the rockwool all together
> 
> have you ever tried those coco tek cubes?


nope cant say i have ever tried coco of any kind, i have always been a RW or hydroton guy myself and think most of the problems with RW are the amount of water they hold. this is what i came up with and it works like a charm. like i said i can water 3x per day (thats as much as my hydroton!). i set the flood level to be halfway up the block.


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## dankhoe417 (Oct 1, 2011)

I posted a query over at icmag about the Fytocel in the US.
Try ehydroponics.com they stock it.


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## tree king (Oct 1, 2011)

dankhoe417 said:


> I posted a query over at icmag about the Fytocel in the US.
> Try ehydroponics.com they stock it.


wow thats great news dankhoe thanks! im gonna try Fytocell in my next crop. i got a few questions about Fytocell for al or anyone else that wants to comment

im doing sea of green 36 plants in a 4 x 4 space with no veg so im guessing Fytocell is used with pots? if so what kind of pots should i use and what size do you recommend using cause i noticed earlier in this thread you said you didnt like net pots

whatever pots i use should i put tape around the sides to protect the roots from light and insects? i want to use neoprene inserts as covers so i think net pots might be the only pots i can use

how high do i flood the water when using Fytocell? can i just flood it a half inch like rockwool cubes and it will soak up the whole pot like a sponge or do i have to flood it real high until it touches the actual plant like hydroton?

how many pots will a 50 L bag fill?

im gonna be taking clones from my aero cloner, i can transplant the clones right inside the Fytocell right? i just didnt know if i put something on top of the Fytocell or something.

one time i used hydroton and i had a problem with plants falling over because they dont really hold any water so they dont weigh that much. the pots were probably just too small. do i risk having this problem with Fytocell? can i use those long bamboo sticks in the Fytocell and tie the plants to those so they dont tip over if need be? my worst nightmare would be plants falling down all over the place. 

you said you put 25m of floc on the bottom of the pot, how much of an inch is that, like how tall is it?

how many times a day should i be flooding the tray in flower? is once a day really all i need? i thought one of the advantages of Fytocell was that you can flood it more often to have a more constant flow of nutes but i guess thats not the case. thanks


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## dankhoe417 (Oct 1, 2011)

I use the fytocell for moms only right now, because i am trying to use the shiteload of hydroton that i already have. To cover tje large drain holes in my mom pots, i use a little bit of window screen, then alternate layers od hydroton and Fytocell. Stuff is awesome.


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## tree king (Oct 1, 2011)

dankhoe, i cant wait to try it out. il be buying some in the next couple weeks for my new crop.


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## tenthirty (Oct 1, 2011)

4x4 pot = 1 gal, 4 L to a gallon. I would say maybe 15-20 pots.


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## tree king (Oct 1, 2011)

tenthirty said:


> 4x4 pot = 1 gal, 4 L to a gallon. I would say maybe 15-20 pots.


i gotta fill 36, 5" net pots with Fytocell. do you think a 100 L bag will do the job?


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## tenthirty (Oct 1, 2011)

It'll be close.

Just make some adjustments with the RW flock in the bottom and you should be good.


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## tree king (Oct 1, 2011)

tenthirty said:


> It'll be close.
> 
> Just make some adjustments with the RW flock in the bottom and you should be good.


thanks. yeah i was gonna do that anyway so it will probably work. so i guess the Fytocell leaks out of the bottom but not the side. i hope ehydroponics.com hurries up and gets the 100l bags back in


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## tree king (Oct 3, 2011)

al these are the pots i think im gonna go with when using the fytocell
http://www.ehydroponics.com/?action=product&id=6395&cid=162
im gonna put rockwool on the bottom like you do. im not gonna have to drill any air holes on the side/bottom am i?

how many inches up the pot do you recommend filling with rockwool because i dont know how much 25mm is? i was gonna go with the gallon pots

do you presoak your fytocell? i dont know how someone would go about presoaking a huge amount of the stuff

i read a previous thread where you said to lightly scrape the last 25mm of stem with the back of a scalpel when cloning. is there any way you can show a picture of what the clone looks like after you do this? i cant picture it in my head. can i use a razor to do this? thanks


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 4, 2011)

dankhoe417 said:


> I use the fytocell for moms only right now, because i am trying to use the shiteload of hydroton that i already have. To cover tje large drain holes in my mom pots, i use a little bit of window screen, then alternate layers od hydroton and Fytocell. Stuff is awesome.


where are you geting the flytocell at?


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## dankhoe417 (Oct 4, 2011)

http://ehydroponics.com

50l for $38.95

Actually had a bag via a friend and just found this source through a query on icmag. Have some in transit.


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## Huel Perkins (Oct 4, 2011)

Al, I love reading your threads and always value you opinions. Ever since I switched from soil to DWC I've been having a problem with buds getting so big and top heavy that my plants have been leaning/falling over and laying all over each or even worse breaking branches under the weight of the buds. At first I was using strings to tie up and support the plants with the other end tied to hooks in the ceiling of my but this made it such a pain in the ass to move buckets around which is needed to maintain the plants in the back of my room. I recently built in tomato cages to my bucket lids which has helped support my plants a great deal but it's still not enough. The plants get plenty of air flow and are constantly being swayed from my two fans. I also supply them a silica supplement to try to strengthen the stalks. Do you have any ideas why my girls can't seem to support their own weight?


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## tree king (Oct 4, 2011)

im so damn mad right now its not even funny. ehydroponics.com is all out of fytocell and they said they cant even get any more. if anyone knows another spot then please let use know cause i need to buy some this week to get my next crop going


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 5, 2011)

Ive been trying to locate it for months


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Hey Al I just got my 2nd 1k watt light up and Im parionoid now. So is there any precaution you go by? Say if the law comes by or anything like that, sometimes I feel like shuting down because of my parnoid, but I know im good I have a business and a nice size home and no drama around but still a little p-noid what do you do?


 Electricity use alone is not going to be a cause of you getting busted. Power companies as a matter of course do not report customers to the cops, especially not if you pay your bill, in full and on time every time. You're just a good customer. You'd have to have bridged out your kWh meter *and* have a ton of power draw to attract attention from your power company. 

Now- if you get busted taking a load of buds somewhere, cops may get a warrant not only to search your premises but also subpoena records from your electricity provider. 

Don't make stupid mistakes. Having a taillight out, boomy car stereo or other traffic violations are unforced errors that you can so easily avoid. Don't ever tell anyone that you grow- and most importantly, NEVER have 5-minute visitors to your house. Neighbours notice these things. 



Rick Ratlin said:


> About the adjust a wing, How much of a parabola do you give it, there are multiple options on the edge of the wing, supposedly to simulate the seasons, are your two aawings bent the same. mabe a close up pic? Thanks Al!


 The slots on the AAW have nothing at all to do with simulating seasons. 'Simulating seasons' as it were is done by manipulating the day length with timers. Use the adjustments on the AAW to set the light dispersion so that it hits your plants and not the far walls. 



tenthirty said:


> Thank you sir!! That would be a .7 conversion. Almost 1.5 EC.


 OK, if you say so! 



Highhopes99 said:


> Nice to see you back Al,


 Thanks. 



Highhopes99 said:


> Yourself and Homebrewer are the only veteran growers on this site that have any luck with rookwool ( or at least used to ) why do you think this is? I water it once every 2 days and still have root issues. I'm going to perlite because fytocell is impossible to find in north america.


 Are you using H2O2 in your reservoirs? 

Perlite's fine.



hellraizer30 said:


> I use rockwool with awsome luck! I would love to give fytocell a shot but like you said its not available


 Hard to get outside Australia, I'm told. Worth asking your local hydro shop to stock it, tho. 



drgreentm said:


> use some of the little trays that go inside a clone tray and hold rapid rooters and line your flood tray with them so that your RW blocks are not sitting on a flat surface. this helps break the water tension in the blocks and they will drain much faster. I water my 4x4x4 cubes 3x a day with great results. this also allows your roots (instead of being stuck inside the block) to grow into the little cups and your plants can grow much larger while the roots are safely tucked into the cups so no light can get into them.


 I'm not a fan of the 100mm (4") cubes. They are highly absorbent and hold so much water that the cutting can't suck it up quickly- the water in the cube loses all of its dissolved oxygen (stagnates). 100mm cubes also take up a lot more space in the clone box; I only have so much space on the heat mat- I can do 4x the number of cuttings with 40mm cubes in the same space as with 100mm. 

I need cuttings ready to plant out every 14 days. 100mm cubes, by virtue of the fact that there's more distance between the stem and the bottom of the cube, will significantly add to the amount of time between doing the cutting and getting roots out of the bottom of the cubes.

The plant in your photo look likes it's about 30+ days post cutting. That's a very large plant compared to the size we work with in Sea of Green grows. 



tree king said:


> have you ever tried those coco tek cubes?


 I'm not a fan of organic matter in an inorganic hydro op, whether it's coconut coir or peat pellets (rapid rooters). They go to pieces when exposed to H2O2 (bits can get stuck in pumps) & being organic matter, can support mould growth. 



dankhoe417 said:


> I posted a query over at icmag about the Fytocel in the US.
> Try ehydroponics.com they stock it.


 There you go!



tree king said:


> wow thats great news dankhoe thanks! im gonna try Fytocell in my next crop. i got a few questions about Fytocell for al or anyone else that wants to comment
> 
> im doing sea of green 36 plants in a 4 x 4 space with no veg so im guessing Fytocell is used with pots?
> 
> if so what kind of pots should i use and what size do you recommend using cause i noticed earlier in this thread you said you didnt like net pots


 Use plain old plastic pots with drain holes in the bottom. 



> whatever pots i use should i put tape around the sides to protect the roots from light and insects?


 Not needed if you use just plain plastic pots. 



> i want to use neoprene inserts as covers so i think net pots might be the only pots i can use


 I wouldn't cover a pot of media with anything that air and moisture can't readily move through. You'll create an anaerobic moisture trap where pythium etc will thrive and bugger the roots. 

If you want to keep sciarid flies out, pantyhose or knee-high stocking material works great. 



> how high do i flood the water when using Fytocell? can i just flood it a half inch like rockwool cubes and it will soak up the whole pot like a sponge or do i have to flood it real high until it touches the actual plant like hydroton?


 Flood to about 25-50mm and drain as soon as the nute soln reaches that level. My pumps fill my trays in about 3 minutes. 



> how many pots will a 50 L bag fill?


 Depends on the size of the pot you're using. My 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots are roughly 2L in capacity, so I'd say about 25-30 pots filled from a 50L bag. Consider buying the 100L bags- fewer trips to the hydro shop, probably a little cheaper per litre of Fytocell as well. 



> im gonna be taking clones from my aero cloner, i can transplant the clones right inside the Fytocell right? i just didnt know if i put something on top of the Fytocell or something.


 You can take the rooted clones and plant directly in previously wetted Fytocell. Make a large hole (50-60mm) in the Fytocell, place the plant & backfill with Fytocell that you pushed aside to make the hole. Aerocloners are great & all but there's no media to support the roots. Use EXTREME care not to break roots when planting in Fytocell. 



> one time i used hydroton and i had a problem with plants falling over because they dont really hold any water so they dont weigh that much. the pots were probably just too small. do i risk having this problem with Fytocell? can i use those long bamboo sticks in the Fytocell and tie the plants to those so they dont tip over if need be? my worst nightmare would be plants falling down all over the place.


 When using clay pellets, plant the rooted cutting deeply enough in the pellets that they don't fall over. Same with Fytocell. 

I don't like using bamboo sticks to support plants but have used them when there was nothing better available. You'll find that they rot after being constantly wet for a spell. Rotting is caused by microbes which you'd rather not have near your rootzone. Use plastic dowels if you can get them. 



> you said you put 25m of floc on the bottom of the pot, how much of an inch is that, like how tall is it?


 25mm is about an inch. 


> how many times a day should i be flooding the tray in flower? is once a day really all i need? i thought one of the advantages of Fytocell was that you can flood it more often to have a more constant flow of nutes but i guess thats not the case. thanks


 New clones introduced to the flowering area can be flooded every other day for the first 2 weeks. Plants in wks 2-4, 4-6 & 6-8 can be flooded daily. 

Remember, in SoG, we're not growing large plants. SoG sized plants are not likely to deplete the media around the rootmass of nutrients in 24h. 



tree king said:


> i gotta fill 36, 5" net pots with Fytocell. do you think a 100 L bag will do the job?


 Don't use netpots. 



tree king said:


> thanks. yeah i was gonna do that anyway so it will probably work. so i guess the Fytocell leaks out of the bottom but not the side. i hope ehydroponics.com hurries up and gets the 100l bags back in


 If you use netpots, you will have Fytocell crumbs escaping all over the place. Go to the dollar shop or a gardening plastics supplier and get standard plastic pots as normally used for soil. 



tree king said:


> al these are the pots i think im gonna go with when using the fytocell
> http://www.ehydroponics.com/?action=product&id=6395&cid=162


 That'll do fine. 



> im gonna put rockwool on the bottom like you do.


 OK. 



> im not gonna have to drill any air holes on the side
> /bottom am i?


 Nope. 



> how many inches up the pot do you recommend filling with rockwool because i dont know how much 25mm is? i was gonna go with the gallon pots


 Make friends with the metric system! 25mm is about 1".



> do you presoak your fytocell? i dont know how someone would go about presoaking a huge amount of the stuff


 I use a spare pump & a length of garden hose to wet the Fytocell, which I have packed into the pots while dry. 



> i read a previous thread where you said to lightly scrape the last 25mm of stem with the back of a scalpel when cloning. is there any way you can show a picture of what the clone looks like after you do this? i cant picture it in my head. can i use a razor to do this? thanks


 You're looking only to bruise the stem a bit. I'm pretty sure there's a pic of the process in the thread about cloning as is linked in my sig. 



Huel Perkins said:


> Al, I love reading your threads and always value you opinions. Ever since I switched from soil to DWC I've been having a problem with buds getting so big and top heavy that my plants have been leaning/falling over and laying all over each or even worse breaking branches under the weight of the buds. At first I was using strings to tie up and support the plants with the other end tied to hooks in the ceiling of my but this made it such a pain in the ass to move buckets around which is needed to maintain the plants in the back of my room. I recently built in tomato cages to my bucket lids which has helped support my plants a great deal but it's still not enough. The plants get plenty of air flow and are constantly being swayed from my two fans. I also supply them a silica supplement to try to strengthen the stalks. Do you have any ideas why my girls can't seem to support their own weight?


 Everybody should have your problems.   

You can get plant support netting like this. Stretch it horizontally about 500mm above plants while they are short & let the plants grow through it. Otherwise, try some plastic dowels as stakes, use twist-ties to secure them to the plants. 



tree king said:


> im so damn mad right now its not even funny. ehydroponics.com is all out of fytocell and they said they cant even get any more. if anyone knows another spot then please let use know cause i need to buy some this week to get my next crop going


Drat.



hellraizer30 said:


> Ive been trying to locate it for months


*sigh* Rotsaruck. Perlite will do as a substitute.


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## *BUDS (Oct 5, 2011)

Al, im using your cloning methods but with jiffy pots, problem im having is roots growing from one jiify to another(in the same tray) and i have to pull them apart to separate, breaking roots, how bad is this for the clone?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2011)

*BUDS said:


> Al, im using your cloning methods but with jiffy pots, problem im having is roots growing from one jiify to another(in the same tray) and i have to pull them apart to separate, breaking roots, how bad is this for the clone?


I use 40mm rockwool cubes that are individually wrapped in plastic; this prevents knitting between neighbouring plants. See the link to my cloning thread in my signature. Breaking roots will stunt the plant & slow growth.


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## *BUDS (Oct 5, 2011)

Ok will change to the plastic wrap cubes, thanks for quick reply.


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## *BUDS (Oct 5, 2011)

One more thing, im thinking of investing in one of these,  to eliminate spidermite,gnats etc without using chemicals. Do you think it would work and would it cause the plants any problems?


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## batf1nk (Oct 5, 2011)

Al, on the subject of using tap water and the fact RO is not needed... The water in my area is 500-600ppm is this still good to use? When I started I was told to only use RO, after reading your posts here, i now know this is not needed and I will gladly dump that system as its a pain in the ass lol.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2011)

*BUDS said:


> One more thing, im thinking of investing in one of these, View attachment 1820985 to eliminate spidermite,gnats etc without using chemicals. Do you think it would work and would it cause the plants any problems?


I don't think it'll work. I have yet to see peer-reviewed, replicatable evidence that bugs are frightened by electronic devices. Now, the zappers that attract bugs with light & fry them with high voltage are another story- but those are not much use in a grow op, where there has to be a period of darkness in most cases. 

BTW- 'chemicals'? WATER is a chemical. Let's have some sense about science, OK? 



batf1nk said:


> Al, on the subject of using tap water and the fact RO is not needed... The water in my area is 500-600ppm is this still good to use? When I started I was told to only use RO, after reading your posts here, i now know this is not needed and I will gladly dump that system as its a pain in the ass lol.


The EC of your tapwater is most likely being caused by Ca & Mg as a result of water storage in lakes, reservoirs & passage through rivers, underground aquifers. If you want a nute concentration of 1000ppm & your water is 500ppm out of the tap, mix for 1500.

RO is not necessary unless you are using bore/well water that has high salinity.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2011)

BTW, if you're concerned about what's in your tapwater, your local water utility will do analyses frequently- many publish that information on their website or will provide it on request. 

If you're using bore/well water, your local university's agriculture/horticulture dept or county extension agent may offer analysis, often for free.


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## tree king (Oct 5, 2011)

al thanks alot for answering all my questions i really appreciate it!


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## don2009 (Oct 5, 2011)

Yeah Al I really appreciate you too. Your opnion or answers mean a lot to us. RIU is becoming so lame now you are a golden bar to us now you helping at the best time thanks a million soon as I get my SOG going I will make a donation to you just because.


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## Slivers (Oct 5, 2011)

Hey al good to see you're still around. I've read most(first 50 pages) of your cloning tutorial. Following what you've said about cloning, I have 1/6 showing roots at day 7. I wanted to say thanks for the information provided, and although I don't have a heating mat I'm confident the rest will follow by day 10-12. I haven't watered them at all, do you think I will get 6/6 with enough time?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2011)

kofseattle said:


> Awesome tip thanks! I just found a report on our water districts website that give complete breakdown of what is in the water. Very interesting


 No wucking furries. 



tree king said:


> al thanks alot for answering all my questions i really appreciate it!


 No problem. 



don2009 said:


> Yeah Al I really appreciate you too. Your opnion or answers mean a lot to us.


 Thanks for the thanks. 



> RIU is becoming so lame now you are a golden bar to us now you helping at the best time thanks a million


 Is that what me mum meant when she said I was goldbricking? 



> soon as I get my SOG going I will make a donation to you just because.


 Thanks, but no, please. If I got paid to do this, it'd become a millstone- really fast. I'd feel obligated to answer promptly and extensively- and I'm a stoned slacker, so you know damned well that's never gonna happen. 

Cheers to y'all. 



Slivers said:


> Hey al good to see you're still around. I've read most(first 50 pages) of your cloning tutorial. Following what you've said about cloning, I have 1/6 showing roots at day 7. I wanted to say thanks for the information provided, and although I don't have a heating mat I'm confident the rest will follow by day 10-12. I haven't watered them at all, do you think I will get 6/6 with enough time?


Yes, cloning will certainly work without a heat mat, but mat will make things faster & more reliable. Worth the investment, avail at most gardening shops. You might have all 6 popped by now if you used a heat mat. If you mind the watering closely- never wet, always just damp- you'll get all 6 in time. Will just take longer & the roots won't pop quite as prolifically, but it'll still work.


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## Slivers (Oct 6, 2011)

Just checked them again 3/6 now. 1 of them is growing roots like it's planning on taking over. There is a heating mat for sale at my local hydro shop so I'll prolly get that tomorrow. It's like 20 bucks... I was thinking once I get my clones in my aero system should i start them at like 200-300 ppm right away or should I wait a week into flowering?


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## Shwagbag (Oct 6, 2011)

Hey Al, 

Great to see you back and contributing when you have time. I have a question about your system. What are your thoughts about coco or coco chips as a substrate? Thanks in advance. 

Shwagbag


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## don2009 (Oct 6, 2011)

Hey Al how do you do your electricty do you have extension cords thru out the house so you wouldnt clog up one amp or do you have a electric box or something so you dont have to have cords going to different rooms in the house?


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## tree king (Oct 6, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> Great to see you back and contributing when you have time. I have a question about your system. What are your thoughts about coco or coco chips as a substrate? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Shwagbag


he already answered that in the thread. he doesnt like coco


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## tree king (Oct 6, 2011)

can someone post a link to al's how to clone thread? i cant find it


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## drgreentm (Oct 6, 2011)

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html


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## tree king (Oct 6, 2011)

drgreentm said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html


i appreciate it thanks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 7, 2011)

Slivers said:


> Just checked them again 3/6 now. 1 of them is growing roots like it's planning on taking over. There is a heating mat for sale at my local hydro shop so I'll prolly get that tomorrow. It's like 20 bucks...


 Bargain. 



Shwagbag said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> Great to see you back and contributing when you have time. I have a question about your system. What are your thoughts about coco or coco chips as a substrate? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Shwagbag


 Not a fan of coconut coir. It will break down into little fragments that may get caught in pumps. Use an inorganic medium. 



don2009 said:


> Hey Al how do you do your electricty do you have extension cords thru out the house so you wouldnt clog up one amp or do you have a electric box or something so you dont have to have cords going to different rooms in the house?


 My op is in a single room and has its own run of 10ga Romex cable to the breaker box and its own circuit breaker. Never, ever run extension cords all over the place. Never exceed 80% of the rating of cabling or connectors, i.e. never more than 8A through a 10A rated cable or connector. 

The 2nd most common cause of police discovery of grow ops (after being dobbed in by dissatisfied grow partners or aggrieved exGFs/BFs) is fires caused by substandard electrics. 



tree king said:


> he already answered that in the thread. he doesnt like coco


 Yep.



tree king said:


> can someone post a link to al's how to clone thread? i cant find it


It's in my signature, at the end of every message I post.


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## don2009 (Oct 7, 2011)

My op is in a single room and has its own run of 10ga Romex cable to the breaker box and its own circuit breaker. Never, ever run extension cords all over the place. Never exceed 80% of the rating of cabling or connectors, i.e. never more than 8A through a 10A rated cable or connector. 

The 2nd most common cause of police discovery of grow ops (after being dobbed in by dissatisfied grow partners or aggrieved exGFs/BFs) is fires caused by substandard electrics.
***********

Dame so what to do? IDK anything about electrcity. And I got one extension cord to the laundry room for the 1000 watt the 600watt is plug to the grow room into the surge protecter with 1 oscilating fan my inline fan, water pumps 2,air pump and t5 lights for vegg,wtf to do I dont want to turn on my lights now I'll wait till you come back lol j/k but I'll be waiting for ya


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## don2009 (Oct 7, 2011)

Hey Al Im a little confuse about what you said. Never, ever run extension cords all over the place. Never exceed 80% of the rating of cabling or connectors, i.e. never more than 8A through a 10A rated cable or connector. Can you say that in lame terms?


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## trichome fiend (Oct 9, 2011)

...Hi Al!  ...I thought you and viewers may like to gander at the progress....this is PPP (pure power plant) the first 3 weeks of flowering from clone....


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## Distiller (Oct 10, 2011)

Hi, this is a question for Al or trichome...Al, you said a few pages back not to cover the rootmass with anything that would trap air and moisture. I have experimented with putting panda film over the ebb and flow table to allow roots to grow out of the pot and onto the table. My grow medium is hydroton and I do use 6.8 ml 29% h2o2 solution. I haven't seen any problems at all but I would like your experience on the matter.

Trichome, from your pictures earlier, you grow in plastic fence posts similar to a NFT technique? Do you notice problems with moisture or lack of oxygen by covering your trays?


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## Distiller (Oct 10, 2011)




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## Swiezy (Oct 10, 2011)

Al, as you are more competent and like god of buds for me, can you offer me some good strain for op like yours?

Big yield is most important, potency is important too but on a second position. I tried Grape God but potency is not very high. Somebody said that Blue Cheese will be good - in my opinion potency is excellent, but yield leaves a lot to be desired. I can't find strain which has both characteristics with 8 weeks flowering. 

What do you think about it?

Thanks


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## trichome fiend (Oct 10, 2011)

Distiller said:


> Trichome, from your pictures earlier, you grow in plastic fence posts similar to a NFT technique? Do you notice problems with moisture or lack of oxygen by covering your trays?


...good day Distiller! I like the setup!...I fill my fence post with rocks to prevent moisture issues....I cover my tables with panda poly and grow in netted pots, which new air enters through and bypasses the roots as the table drains....this has been the most productive technique for me, I wouldn't trump my words over Al's, I'm a lifelong pupil.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 10, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> Al, as you are more competent and like god of buds for me, can you offer me some good strain for op like yours?
> 
> Big yield is most important, potency is important too but on a second position. I tried Grape God but potency is not very high. Somebody said that Blue Cheese will be good - in my opinion potency is excellent, but yield leaves a lot to be desired. I can't find strain which has both characteristics with 8 weeks flowering.
> 
> ...


...check out this strain ---> http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/dinafem-seeds-critical-/prod_49.html


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## potpimp (Oct 11, 2011)

Subbed to this!


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## Swiezy (Oct 11, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...check out this strain ---> http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/dinafem-seeds-critical-/prod_49.html


Cheers pal, but after a research I've found that its maturing too late for me. People says that 65-70 days is perfect for this strain. Maybe it is difficult to find this fast maturing pheno.

Anybody grew Endless Sky from Dr. Greenthumb in SOG? (I read that Dr. Greenthumb has lost original parents so it is no longer quick flowering strain, takes ~70days as well ;/)

How about Pakistani Valley? Cant find too much info for this.

It is so fucking difficult to find proper strain.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 11, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> Cheers pal, but after a research I've found that its maturing too late for me. People says that 65-70 days is perfect for this strain. Maybe it is difficult to find this fast maturing pheno.
> 
> Anybody grew Endless Sky from Dr. Greenthumb in SOG? (I read that Dr. Greenthumb has lost original parents so it is no longer quick flowering strain, takes ~70days as well ;/)
> 
> ...


...really? I've been pullin'em down at 49 days for a couple years now....you can view post # 446 of this very thread to view the preharvest shots. The first pic is Dinafem's," Critical+" @ day 48. The 3rd pic is of Barney's farms, "Blue Cheese"....both do really well in a sog, imo. World of Seeds, "Northern Lights x Big Bud" and their "Northern Lights x Skunk" are rewarding also....PPP (Pure Power Plant) is another one I like....but my all time favorite would have to be, Sensi Seeds, "Big Bud". Good luck....


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## Swiezy (Oct 11, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...really? I've been pullin'em down at 49 days for a couple years now....you can view post # 446 of this very thread to view the preharvest shots. The first pic is Dinafem's," Critical+" @ day 48. The 3rd pic is of Barney's farms, "Blue Cheese"....both do really well in a sog, imo. World of Seeds, "Northern Lights x Big Bud" and their "Northern Lights x Skunk" are rewarding also....PPP (Pure Power Plant) is another one I like....but my all time favorite would have to be, Sensi Seeds, "Big Bud". Good luck....


Are you remember average table/plant yield from strains which you offered to me? Which one was more potent? I am looking for strain which will give me at least average ounce of potent weed per plant in SOG like Al's or similar.

BTW nice setup, those NLxSkunk buds looks awsome.

Thanks for patience.


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## HydroDawg421 (Oct 12, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...really? I've been pullin'em down at 49 days for a couple years now....you can view post # 446 of this very thread to view the preharvest shots. The first pic is Dinafem's," Critical+" @ day 48. The 3rd pic is of Barney's farms, "Blue Cheese"....both do really well in a sog, imo. World of Seeds, "Northern Lights x Big Bud" and their "Northern Lights x Skunk" are rewarding also....PPP (Pure Power Plant) is another one I like....but my all time favorite would have to be, Sensi Seeds, "Big Bud". Good luck....



Tell more more about Big Bud. I have 10 beans I intend to use for my 2nd grow. I'm 2 weeks in to veg on 8 Swiss Cheese now. I run a 6 site DWC using House & Garden nutes, 1000w, CO2, etc . . .


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## tree king (Oct 12, 2011)

deleted post


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## trichome fiend (Oct 12, 2011)

HydroDawg421 said:


> Tell more more about Big Bud. I have 10 beans I intend to use for my 2nd grow. I'm 2 weeks in to veg on 8 Swiss Cheese now. I run a 6 site DWC using House & Garden nutes, 1000w, CO2, etc . . .


....she does GrrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrreat in a SoG!


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## HydroDawg421 (Oct 12, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....she does GrrrrrrRRRRRRRrrrreat in a SoG!
> 
> View attachment 1833418View attachment 1833416View attachment 1833419View attachment 1833420View attachment 1833417



How many plants are in those pics?


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## tenthirty (Oct 12, 2011)

HydroDawg421 said:


> How many plants are in those pics?


 Please..........Give us all the details!


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## tree king (Oct 13, 2011)

al i got a couple clones in my aero cloner that have been in there over 3 weeks and they havent rooted. i took the clones late in flower from a real sick plant. there slowly yellowing and i feel like if i do nothing they will eventually die without rooting. is there any thing i can do now that can kick them into gear and make them root? if they die i might lose my new mom forever so its kind of important. just to add i dont know if this was a good idea but i just took them out of the cloner and soaked them in gel for 15 minutes and i never cut the bottom of the stem open or scraped it from the start like you do cause i just found out about it


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## trichome fiend (Oct 13, 2011)

HydroDawg421 said:


> How many plants are in those pics?


...approx 60 ladies under 2- 600 HPS.....I pulled 2-1/2 lbs on that run


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## tenthirty (Oct 13, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...approx 60 ladies under 2- 600 HPS.....I pulled 2-1/2 lbs on that run


 That is sweet!!


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## davidgrimm (Oct 13, 2011)

subscribed


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## Shwagbag (Oct 14, 2011)

Hey Trichome Fiend, you running PPP currently? That is one of my all time favorite strains! I've always thought it would be perfect for SoG too! I've tried Big Bud, didn't have the potency I was looking for. The buds were huge and nice looking but the buzz wasn't there with the genetics I have.


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## liMes vaiDs (Oct 15, 2011)

tree king said:


> al i got a couple clones in my aero cloner that have been in there over 3 weeks and they havent rooted. i took the clones late in flower from a real sick plant. there slowly yellowing and i feel like if i do nothing they will eventually die without rooting. is there any thing i can do now that can kick them into gear and make them root? if they die i might lose my new mom forever so its kind of important. just to add i dont know if this was a good idea but i just took them out of the cloner and soaked them in gel for 15 minutes and i never cut the bottom of the stem open or scraped it from the start like you do cause i just found out about it


I wouldn't have much hope for your girls, but I remember Al saying that if your clones are not rooting and there is rot you can make another cut above the rot and re-dip in hormone and try again. good luck. Back up plan?


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## liMes vaiDs (Oct 15, 2011)

Hey Al, thanks for everything. I have learned a lot reading through this thread. Thank you for writing in a very easy to understand, grammatically correct manner; digging through threads of idiots writing in some kind of stoned speak has me not using the internet much for research. 

The only thing I could add to this thread would be the discrepancy in PPM. I'm surprised that for all the metric measurements you champion (and I love that), that you use PPM as your measurement and not EC. 

"

* PPM Conversion Factors*

Not all TDS meters will give the same PPM reading. The main reason for this is that different meters will use different conversion factors. These conversion factors are based off the EC reading. For example: A meter that uses a conversion factor of 0.5 will display a reading of 0.5 times that of the EC reading. If the EC reading is 1000 µS then the ppm reading will be 500 ppm. It is as simple as multiplying 1000 by the conversion factor of 0.5. If the meter uses a conversion factor of 0.7 (the most common conversion factor used) then 1000 µS would be 700 ppm (1000 x 0.7). When purchasing a TDS meter it is very important to find out what the correct conversion factor is for the meter. It could make a difference of more than 200 ppm! Not only is it important to know what the conversion factor for the meter is, it is also important to know the conversion factor of the calibration solution. Generally speaking, Genesis calibration solutions are for meters that use a 0.7 conversion factor and the Hanna solutions are for meters with a 0.5 conversion factor."

so, not that it matters for most people, but I had a problem years ago when I was burning plants at 1000ppm, only to learn the conversion factor of my meter was .5, which would be [email protected] conversion. clearly, this was my mistake, but it is one that I feel could happen to many people if it happened to me. I have a strong science background- B.S. in chemistry. since then I only look at the EC, I haven't even thought about PPM in a couple years. 

since EC has no conversion factor it makes the communication of how strong your nutrient solution is standardized, assuming your meter corrects for temperature. Like you I have found that running a lower EC/PPM increases yield as less is more. Once leaves are burned, even just the tips, you have done damage. Stay low to stay high. I run 1350uS EC, or [email protected] conversion. 

Thanks for all your time and effort, it is very appreciated.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 15, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Dame so what to do? IDK anything about electrcity. And I got one extension cord to the laundry room for the 1000 watt the 600watt is plug to the grow room into the surge protecter with 1 oscilating fan my inline fan, water pumps 2,air pump and t5 lights for vegg,wtf to do I dont want to turn on my lights now I'll wait till you come back lol j/k but I'll be waiting for ya


 You need to familiarise yourself with some basic electrical concepts. The most important is the current carrying capacity of the house wiring and any cabling or connectors you use to run all your stuff. Current is expressed in Amperes (often abbreviated amps). All devices intended for use with AC mains electricity will be labelled with the amount of current the device will consume or will carry. 

The device may also be marked with the power consumption or power carrying capacity, measured in Watts. Power (in Watts) = Current x Voltage. A device that runs on a 240V mains voltage that draws 1 Amp can be said to be using 240 watts. A device running on 120V that draws 2A is also consuming 240W. 

House wiring is divided up into several circuits or daisy-chains of power point outlets. Each chain or 'circuit' has its own circuit breaker (or fuse, in very old houses). Circuit breakers disconnect the mains power when the load has exceeded the rating of the breaker. The bedrooms may be on one circuit breaker, the kitchen on another, the laundry on another, the water heater on its own circuit, etc. This is why you have several circuit breakers in your home's breaker box. 

I am in Australia, where the AC voltage at household power points is 240V. Much of what I'll discuss will be based on 240V wiring, but it applies also for 120V mains as used in the US, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc. 

Most 120V residential wiring also provide 220 or 240V for high power appliances like electric stoves, water heaters, clothes dryers, etc. The reason for 220/240 service is that when you need to deliver a large amount of power (in watts) to a device, remember that Power = Current x Voltage. When voltage is halved, current must be doubled. If you are running a 1000W load on 240V, it will draw about 4.1A. A 1000W load on 120V will draw 8.2A. Current carrying capacity is dependent upon the diameter of the wires. Thicker wires can carry more current. Thin, smaller gauge wires tend to get warm when you draw too much current through them. However, if you double the voltage, the current is cut by half to deliver the same wattage. Growers in the US may wish to install a 220/240V line from the breaker box into the op and buy lighting to suit that voltage. 

In residential house wiring, most of the individual circuits are designed for operating low power devices like lighting and small appliances. The rating for lightly loaded ckts as such is usually somewhere around 8 - 15A. Everything you connect to a ckt adds to the load on that ckt. A 1000W HPS lamp will usually pull about 4.6A on 240V (there's about .5A loss in the ballast, which leaves the ballast as heat). An oscillating fan may draw about 60W, or .25A (250 milliamps, or 250mA) for 240V mains. To determine the load you're placing on a ckt, simply add up all the amperage figures on all the devices you connect. 

To avoid overloading a ckt, the load connected must be lower than the rating of the ckt breaker. For best reliability and safety, I recommend that you do not load a ckt to more than 80% of its capacity; in example, don't put more than an 8A load on a 10A ckt. This assures that the wiring and connectors will run cool and thus with a high margin of safety. 

Bear in mind that some devices like HPS lighting have a very high current draw on startup but then settle back to a lower current draw once warmed up. A 1000W HPS may pull 6.5A when striking the arc and warming up but then will fall back to about 4.6A. For this reason, you could not put two 1000s on a single 10A ckt, even though their combined running current (9.2A) would be less than 10A. Even if you stagger the start times by about 5 mins, if one lamp is warmed up and running at 4.6A, when the other lamp starts, it may be pulling 6.5- the combined draw from both lamps, one running, one starting, will be about 11.1A- which will likely trip the 10A breaker. 

Use of extension cords is not a good idea with high-power devices like lighting due to the highly variable quality of the connectors and assembly work. A lot of cheap Chinese extension leads, despite carrying UL or other safety certification insignia, are poorly made and use substandard connectors. If you _*must *_use an extension cord for high power devices, it's best to buy heavy-duty plugs & sockets and assemble them yourself to cable of known quality and wire gauge.

For the greatest degree of safety, run a dedicated cable from your breaker box to the op. Install a breaker specifically for the op. Use standard flexible house wiring cable, often called Romex. Make a power distribution board with high-quality power point outlets mounted on a plywood panel, which you can hang high above the floor, away from any potential water splash areas. Keep all cabling off the floor. 

Surge suppressors are not generally useful in a grow op. They're good for protecting sensitive low power electronics from line surges, but the stuff you'll use in a grow op is not normally susceptible to damage from line surges. However, Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters or GFCIs, do have a purpose in grow ops. GFCIs detect current leaking into the ground lead- this can be caused by water intrusion into a device or wiring or by an insulation fault. GFCIs will cut current flow to a device if an unsafe condition is detected. 



trichome fiend said:


> ...Hi Al!  ...I thought you and viewers may like to gander at the progress....this is PPP (pure power plant) the first 3 weeks of flowering from clone....


 Noice work. Looks like you're keeping the branches well pruned. That will be a nice crop. 

I'm a little concerned about the complete covering of the grow media with panda film; this might cause conditions in the rootzone which may favour anaerobic bacteria, potentially causing root rot. It may also restrict the entry of oxygen to the roots. This isn't an aeroponic grow by any chance, is it? 



Swiezy said:


> Al, as you are more competent and like god of buds for me, can you offer me some good strain for op like yours?


 I'm not the best person to ask about specific strains- I've been using Sweet Tooth #4 and nothing else for the last 9 years. The best strains to use in SoG are indica dominant hybrids; these feature quick maturation, high yield and short stature on maturity.



trichome fiend said:


> ...good day Distiller! I like the setup!...I fill my fence post with rocks to prevent moisture issues....I cover my tables with panda poly and grow in netted pots, which new air enters through and bypasses the roots as the table drains....this has been the most productive technique for me, I wouldn't trump my words over Al's, I'm a lifelong pupil.


 Hmm, sounds OK. If you're getting good root formation and no root rot issues, it's fine. 



liMes vaiDs said:


> I wouldn't have much hope for your girls, but I remember Al saying that if your clones are not rooting and there is rot you can make another cut above the rot and re-dip in hormone and try again. good luck. Back up plan?


You can recut & try again, provided only the tip is rotted and there's no rot travelled up the stem. 



liMes vaiDs said:


> Hey Al, thanks for everything. I have learned a lot reading through this thread. Thank you for writing in a very easy to understand, grammatically correct manner; digging through threads of idiots writing in some kind of stoned speak has me not using the internet much for research.
> 
> The only thing I could add to this thread would be the discrepancy in PPM. I'm surprised that for all the metric measurements you champion (and I love that), that you use PPM as your measurement and not EC.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that. I'm accustomed to using the Bluelab Truncheon meter which reads directly in ppm. If anyone cares to convert my figures from the Truncheon into EC, they're always free to do so.


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## tree king (Oct 15, 2011)

liMes vaiDs said:


> I wouldn't have much hope for your girls, but I remember Al saying that if your clones are not rooting and there is rot you can make another cut above the rot and re-dip in hormone and try again. good luck. Back up plan?


thanks for the response. yeah im already expecting them to die. what would it look like on the bottom of the stem if there was rot though?


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## trichome fiend (Oct 15, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Noice work. Looks like you're keeping the branches well pruned. That will be a nice crop.
> 
> I'm a little concerned about the complete covering of the grow media with panda film; this might cause conditions in the rootzone which may favour anaerobic bacteria, potentially causing root rot. It may also restrict the entry of oxygen to the roots. This isn't an aeroponic grow by any chance, is it?


...thankx! ...and again for the concern. My technique atm, the ladies go from the ezcloner into 3" netted pots filled with growrocks only, which is put into the fence post filled with growrocks....flood and drain.
...I cover the tables/medium with panda poly because I _was_ having fungi growth on the uppermost layer of the rocks ....I have holes/slits in the poly where the medium is located....they seem to like it, and the poly seemed to help lower RH levels a bit....I'll keep your words in my mind for a future experiment....really glad to have you on the boards


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## tree king (Oct 15, 2011)

thanks once again al


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## hornedfrog2000 (Oct 15, 2011)

Hey Al. I've been watching your work for a long time. Like years. Anyway, do you still use floros, or did you end up switching to MH for your moms? I notice your clones have massive thick stems. Just wondering what you like better.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 16, 2011)

hello Al, just a question about wiring.



H<INTAKE FAN> N CONNECTS TO [email protected] 
H 
H 
HHHHHHH HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
H H H
P H H H
O THERMO SWITCH MOTOR SPEED HHHHHHHHHHHH
W> H H
E HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH TO SCRUBBER>
R

NNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN


I hope this diagram makes sense.
N= Nutreal or white
H= Hot or black
Trying to wire my exhaust to run on motor speed controller when thermostat is switched off (temps are low). but It seems to power my intake fans as well.

is this possible or will i need to get another independent thermostat for my intake?

thanks in advance.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 16, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> hello Al, just a question about wiring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that did not come out in the right fomat. It will make scene when you view it in ( reply with Quote)


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## trichome fiend (Oct 16, 2011)

...update on the PPP...wk#4's growth


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## hornedfrog2000 (Oct 16, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...update on the PPP...wk#4's growth
> 
> View attachment 1840977
> 
> ...


What breeder for that ppp?


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## trichome fiend (Oct 16, 2011)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> What breeder for that ppp?


....I had to check to be sure, it's Nirvana's, "Pure Power Plant" from Attitude's pix and mix. 
...here's the link ---> http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/pick-and-mix-nirvana-seeds-ppp/prod_2038.html


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2011)

tree king said:


> thanks for the response. yeah im already expecting them to die. what would it look like on the bottom of the stem if there was rot though?


 If the stem tip is brown & squishy, it's rotted. Cut it back until you see no more brown matter in the stem. Remember, the rooting medium should be kept just damp, never wet or saturated. 



trichome fiend said:


> ...thankx! ...and again for the concern. My technique atm, the ladies go from the ezcloner into 3" netted pots filled with growrocks only, which is put into the fence post filled with growrocks....flood and drain.
> ...I cover the tables/medium with panda poly because I _was_ having fungi growth on the uppermost layer of the rocks ....I have holes/slits in the poly where the medium is located....they seem to like it, and the poly seemed to help lower RH levels a bit....I'll keep your words in my mind for a future experiment....really glad to have you on the boards


 Were you getting fungus or algae? Algae is green- and won't generally cause much problems for your plants. Algae is a plant and will eat some of the nutes on the uppermost level of the medium but won't compete much with the cannabis plants' roots, since they're deeper down in the media. Like any plant, algae needs light, water & nutrients to grow. Shielding the media from light will stop it, as you've done, but the moist/dark conditions may favour growth of pythium, fusarium or other things which will do damage to roots. If you're using a flood system, you have the option of not flooding as deeply- this can help keep the media tops dry, which will also inhibit algae growth. 

Thanks for the thanks. 



tree king said:


> thanks once again al


 No worries. 



hornedfrog2000 said:


> Hey Al. I've been watching your work for a long time. Like years. Anyway, do you still use floros, or did you end up switching to MH for your moms? I notice your clones have massive thick stems. Just wondering what you like better.


Thanks for reading. 

I use a 400HPS over my mums. There's 3x twin tube fluoro fixtures in the clone box. I did try a MH conversion lamp over the mums for a while but it didn't work as well as the 400HPS. 



Highhopes99 said:


> hello Al, just a question about wiring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, but it doesn't!



> N= Nutreal or white
> H= Hot or black
> Trying to wire my exhaust to run on motor speed controller when thermostat is switched off (temps are low). but It seems to power my intake fans as well.
> 
> ...


Oh, OK, I see what you're trying to do now. I'm pretty sure I wrote something about that some time back. I even recall drawing up a schematic for it... however, changes in the way RIU is set up no longer allow me to get to my image library. 

Aw hell, I'll draw it again... 



This arrangement will allow a fan to run at a low speed at all times- whatever you set it to with the MSC- and when the temperature exceeds the setpoint on the thermostat, the MSC will be bridged out and the fan will run at max speed, until the air temp falls below the thermostat's setpoint. You can run more fans (such as your intakes) by connecting them in parallel with the motor as drawn in this diagram.


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## panhead (Oct 17, 2011)

Hey Al,was reading the discussion between yourself & Trichome fiend & i see where he is running flood tables using panda plastic as a lid.

Ive been running all 8 of my flood tables with panda plastic covering the top well over a year now with no problems at all,its the cleanest & whitest my roots have ever been,some of the roots are thinner than a human hair.

I use 30% H202 in my rez & change it out once a week,when i uncover the tables after harvest the root masses are spotless,the plastic lid on the table took care of several problems i was having.

With 8 seperate 4ft x 8ft tables going at once you know what humidity conditions were like to control, i constantly fought powdery mildew,the plastic knocked my humidity problem right out,the room is stable now between 30% & 40%.

I also had concerns with the medium staying wet around the stalk & causing root rott,i ran 2 full crops with hydroton in the net pots with no rott,after those grows i stopped using medium in the net pots just because its a pain in the ass no matter what medium used,i have no medium in the tables at all,in the net pot i have the plant grown out in natural sponge instead of rockwool.

I take a couple chunks of natural sponge & wedge the clone into the pot to hold it up till the roots take hold & thats it for medium,getting rid of the medium helped me out alot,rock steady ph too.

Im not sure what method to call my grow style,the plastic over the table is wrapped over the sides & clamped in place,i then cut 4" holes to accomidate the 5" net pots,over the drain & flood tubes i cut small access holes,the inner table area is pitch black & roots grow like a mo fo,i flood once an hour so the area between the table & underside of the plastic has a fog inside the area at all times so i think its a mix of flood n drain & aero,its a healthy grow.

Just wanted to let ya know the plastic over the table is the bomb & might help you if your still batteling humid conditions in your room,its been spot on for me.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 17, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Sorry, but it doesn't!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes that is what I am trying to do thanks for the great diagram.
but how would one hook up intake fans to the thermostat controll without the power 
looping back causing the intake to run continually on the msc. I want the intake to shut of and on with the thermo switch and not msc when the switch is open (disabled) .. maybe some sort of diode relay that only lets power flow toward the fan?  thanks for your time Al.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 17, 2011)

panhead said:


> Hey Al,was reading the discussion between yourself & Trichome fiend & i see where he is running flood tables using panda plastic as a lid.
> 
> Ive been running all 8 of my flood tables with panda plastic covering the top well over a year now with no problems at all,its the cleanest & whitest my roots have ever been,some of the roots are thinner than a human hair.
> 
> I use 30% H202 in my rez & change it out once a week,when i uncover the tables after harvest the root masses are spotless,the plastic lid on the table took care of several problems i was having.


....right there with ya...beautiful roots, and RH in check.


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## Long Dogg (Oct 17, 2011)

I took off this site when you started a new job a while back, I learned so much from you. 
Glad to see your back teaching the masses.

Thank You


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## don2009 (Oct 17, 2011)

BIG Al. B
You need to familiarise yourself with some basic electrical concepts. The most important is the current carrying capacity of the house wiring and any cabling or connectors you use to run all your stuff. Current is expressed in Amperes (often abbreviated amps). All devices intended for use with AC mains electricity will be labelled with the amount of current the device will consume or will carry. 

The device may also be marked with the power consumption or power carrying capacity, measured in Watts. Power (in Watts) = Current x Voltage. A device that runs on a 240V mains voltage that draws 1 Amp can be said to be using 240 watts. A device running on 120V that draws 2A is also consuming 240W. 

House wiring is divided up into several circuits or daisy-chains of power point outlets. Each chain or 'circuit' has its own circuit breaker (or fuse, in very old houses). Circuit breakers disconnect the mains power when the load has exceeded the rating of the breaker. The bedrooms may be on one circuit breaker, the kitchen on another, the laundry on another, the water heater on its own circuit, etc. This is why you have several circuit breakers in your home's breaker box. 

I am in Australia, where the AC voltage at household power points is 240V. Much of what I'll discuss will be based on 240V wiring, but it applies also for 120V mains as used in the US, Canada, Mexico, Japan, etc. 

Most 120V residential wiring also provide 220 or 240V for high power appliances like electric stoves, water heaters, clothes dryers, etc. The reason for 220/240 service is that when you need to deliver a large amount of power (in watts) to a device, remember that Power = Current x Voltage. When voltage is halved, current must be doubled. If you are running a 1000W load on 240V, it will draw about 4.1A. A 1000W load on 120V will draw 8.2A. Current carrying capacity is dependent upon the diameter of the wires. Thicker wires can carry more current. Thin, smaller gauge wires tend to get warm when you draw too much current through them. However, if you double the voltage, the current is cut by half to deliver the same wattage. Growers in the US may wish to install a 220/240V line from the breaker box into the op and buy lighting to suit that voltage. 

In residential house wiring, most of the individual circuits are designed for operating low power devices like lighting and small appliances. The rating for lightly loaded ckts as such is usually somewhere around 8 - 15A. Everything you connect to a ckt adds to the load on that ckt. A 1000W HPS lamp will usually pull about 4.6A on 240V (there's about .5A loss in the ballast, which leaves the ballast as heat). An oscillating fan may draw about 60W, or .25A (250 milliamps, or 250mA) for 240V mains. To determine the load you're placing on a ckt, simply add up all the amperage figures on all the devices you connect. 

To avoid overloading a ckt, the load connected must be lower than the rating of the ckt breaker. For best reliability and safety, I recommend that you do not load a ckt to more than 80% of its capacity; in example, don't put more than an 8A load on a 10A ckt. This assures that the wiring and connectors will run cool and thus with a high margin of safety. 

Bear in mind that some devices like HPS lighting have a very high current draw on startup but then settle back to a lower current draw once warmed up. A 1000W HPS may pull 6.5A when striking the arc and warming up but then will fall back to about 4.6A. For this reason, you could not put two 1000s on a single 10A ckt, even though their combined running current (9.2A) would be less than 10A. Even if you stagger the start times by about 5 mins, if one lamp is warmed up and running at 4.6A, when the other lamp starts, it may be pulling 6.5- the combined draw from both lamps, one running, one starting, will be about 11.1A- which will likely trip the 10A breaker. 

Use of extension cords is not a good idea with high-power devices like lighting due to the highly variable quality of the connectors and assembly work. A lot of cheap Chinese extension leads, despite carrying UL or other safety certification insignia, are poorly made and use substandard connectors. If you _*must *_use an extension cord for high power devices, it's best to buy heavy-duty plugs & sockets and assemble them yourself to cable of known quality and wire gauge.

For the greatest degree of safety, run a dedicated cable from your breaker box to the op. Install a breaker specifically for the op. Use standard flexible house wiring cable, often called Romex. Make a power distribution board with high-quality power point outlets mounted on a plywood panel, which you can hang high above the floor, away from any potential water splash areas. Keep all cabling off the floor. 

Surge suppressors are not generally useful in a grow op. They're good for protecting sensitive low power electronics from line surges, but the stuff you'll use in a grow op is not normally susceptible to damage from line surges. However, Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters or GFCIs, do have a purpose in grow ops. GFCIs detect current leaking into the ground lead- this can be caused by water intrusion into a device or wiring or by an insulation fault. GFCIs will cut current flow to a device if an unsafe condition is detected.

Don2009
Hey Al iM not a big social person even on the internet. But when I first came to RIU I went to the forums section just off of instant and I knew I wanted to do hydro and I went straight to your thread harvest every 2 week and I immediatly started reading non stop very profound shit bro. Then I was so excited you seem like a celebrity to me, I was like dame I wish I could of been around when you was, just to think of a question to get an answer. lol 4 real. An d I almost got a lecture from you on this post WOW! Thanks bro But I really needed the info not just some Q&A shit. Anyway Al can you refer me to some electrical litature so I can learn the basics to get my issue solved the way you learn? Im really stressing this shit now I did not expect this much $$$$$$$$ and complex knowledge. Espically with electrical everytime I say this is it with spending $$$$ theres another important issue. I spend almost 4-5k just to get my bull shit yields trying to get to your yield and op going now electrical. Is there any thing else vital I have to worry about? Can you do a thread about your thoughts on electrical and the price on getting your op going exactly the way you going now? Thanks bro your a scientist.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 18, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....right there with ya...beautiful roots, and RH in check.



Hey nice setup, 
What kind of air stone size are you using in your Rez?
I'm looking into requirements for my 120 liter res for flood and drain perlite, any suggestions? Also would love to see some pics of your root development inside your tables( maybe when you chop). Thanks


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## Destillat (Oct 18, 2011)

panhead and trichome thanks for your responses! This is my first grow with the panda film but I have experienced all of the benefits you're speaking about. Nice to know i'm on the right track


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## trichome fiend (Oct 18, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Hey nice setup,
> What kind of air stone size are you using in your Rez?
> I'm looking into requirements for my 120 liter res for flood and drain perlite, any suggestions? Also would love to see some pics of your root development inside your tables( maybe when you chop). Thanks


...the more air in your res the better, but I use those cheap 6" blue strips sold at walmart in the pet/fish area....I put 2-6" strips in each 40 gallon res..... I also use the whisper pumps sold in their fish isle....alot of oxygen will be mixed in your water as the table floods/drains, along with H2O2 in there....my tables do pretty good. 

...I've never ran straight perlite, so I wouldn't be the best person to speak on it....but, I would most definately get the large chunk perlite....fox farm sells their "Big and Chunky" here's a link --> http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADFA_en___US452&q=fox+farm%27s+large+perlite#q=fox+farm's+large+perlite&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_en___US452&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=QuKdTpWsE4rCsQK4yLSDCg&ved=0CDAQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=3fef7adf3901cf7e&biw=1440&bih=733


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## hiluxphantom (Oct 19, 2011)

u got any advice on meally bugs?
and what kind of bulbs should i get I'm thinking of 4 400 hortilux blues or 2 600s and a 1000or maybe 4 400s plus a 1000


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## Shwagbag (Oct 19, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...update on the PPP...wk#4's growth
> 
> View attachment 1840977
> 
> ...


My favorite strain. Of all times. Gorgeous work. I just put one in a 4 x 4 under a screen and 720 watts of LED's in soil. Day one of flower right now


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## hornedfrog2000 (Oct 19, 2011)

A lot of the good strains are lost in the hype of marketing anymore.


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## panhead (Oct 20, 2011)

Destillat said:


> panhead and trichome thanks for your responses! This is my first grow with the panda film but I have experienced all of the benefits you're speaking about. Nice to know i'm on the right track


Damm skippy your on the right track,the farther along you go with flood n drain the more you will despise using any type medium,the shits a mess,a bitch to clean,a bitch to lug around ect.

Im an old fart & lifting heavy shit isnt my scene,same with cleaning filthy shit im not some cleaning hag who digs cleaning rocks that smell like sewer foder so i stopped using any medium at all & have the best results so far.

My table is empty,then i stretch the plastic over it with a few xtra inches on all sides,clamp one side with little spring clamps & pull that baby tight from the other side & clamp,makes the plastic tight as a snare drum skin.

When i chop i blow the top of the table with an air wand so no debris gets into the table & when i uncover the table its an awesome sight,roots 12 inches long minimum & white as snow,the best part is if you leave the pumps going till you clean the table so the roots stay wet cleaning takes about 15 minutes.

Try & get away from mediums as ive seen only negatives with all mediums,with no medium all you have to do is increase flood times & your done,no other changes from standard flood n drain.

One of these days i will post up some pics of my set up.


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## Shwagbag (Oct 20, 2011)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> A lot of the good strains are lost in the hype of marketing anymore.


True that, finishing a good ol fashioned NL right now and she is marvelous.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 20, 2011)

panhead said:


> One of these days i will post up some pics of my set up.


.... I'm highly interested, please do.


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## Long Dogg (Oct 20, 2011)

panhead said:


> Damm skippy your on the right track,the farther along you go with flood n drain the more you will despise using any type medium,the shits a mess,a bitch to clean,a bitch to lug around ect.
> 
> Im an old fart & lifting heavy shit isnt my scene,same with cleaning filthy shit im not some cleaning hag who digs cleaning rocks that smell like sewer foder so i stopped using any medium at all & have the best results so far.
> 
> ...


please do so sooner than later, i am very interested to see this


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 20, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...the more air in your res the better, but I use those cheap 6" blue strips sold at walmart in the pet/fish area....I put 2-6" strips in each 40 gallon res..... I also use the whisper pumps sold in their fish isle....alot of oxygen will be mixed in your water as the table floods/drains, along with H2O2 in there....my tables=1T4ADFA_en___US452&q=fox+farm%27s+large+perlite#q=fox+farm's+large+perlite&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_en___US452&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=shop&tbo=u&sa=X&ei=QuKdTpWsE4rCsQK4yLSDCg&ved=0CDAQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=3fef7adf3901cf7e&biw=1440&bih=733"]http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rlz=1T4ADFA_en___US452&q=fox+farm%27s+large+perlite#q=fox+farm's+large+perlite&hl=en&rlz=1T4ADFA_en___US452&prmd=imvns&source=univ&tbm=
> =u&sa=X&ei=QuKdTpWsE4rCsQK4yLSDCg&ved=0CDAQrQQ&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.,cf.osb&fp=3fef7adf3901cf7e&biw=1440&bih=733[/URL]


Thanks for the link I would love to find some of that big chunky stuff. Looks like it would provide alot more air and stay in the pots well . 
Are you using any h202 ? I know al uses 1 ml per liter of 50% grade. But I can only get 29% so I would have to use 1.7 ml per liter Which would be over 255ml every 3 days! Over 1 liter every 2 weeks for 1 res. That seems a bit much.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 21, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Thanks for the link I would love to find some of that big chunky stuff. Looks like it would provide alot more air and stay in the pots well .
> Are you using any h202 ? I know al uses 1 ml per liter of 50% grade. But I can only get 29% so I would have to use 1.7 ml per liter Which would be over 255ml every 3 days! Over 1 liter every 2 weeks for 1 res. That seems a bit much.


....yeap, I use h2o2....I use the 30%, and I typically only add a ml per gallon. I try to stay focused on res temps and bubbles in the res also.


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## tree king (Oct 21, 2011)

al i got a question about how h202 works since your a scientist. what would happen if i just dumped 6.9 ml of 29% h202 in a gallon of water but i didnt use the water to grow with. to be more clear after i dump it in i know the oxygen level will be higher. will the oxygen level in the water be higher permanently and never leave because its liquid oxygen and it isnt being givin to the plants and sucked up by the roots? if its possible for the extra oxygen from the h202 to leave the water without being sucked up by the roots then how long will it last until its totally gone and can you explain scientifically how its able to leave since i think it stays liquid oxygen? im just trying to figure out if the reason you have to give h202 to plants every 3-4 days is because the plants are using it all up or if it breaks down and disappears even when plants arent using it up. thanks


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## potpimp (Oct 21, 2011)

H2O2 is water with a diatomic oxygen molecule. It's basically just an extra atom of O2. If something makes a demand on it, like the plant, it will give up the extra atom of O2, leaving plain water.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 21, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....yeap, I use h2o2....I use the 30%, and I typically only add a ml per gallon. I try to stay focused on res temps and bubbles in the res also.


you have a chiller for the res? what temp do you keep it at?


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## tree king (Oct 21, 2011)

potpimp said:


> H2O2 is water with a diatomic oxygen molecule. It's basically just an extra atom of O2. If something makes a demand on it, like the plant, it will give up the extra atom of O2, leaving plain water.


potpimp can you be more clear? are you saying the extra oxygen it adds never leaves water unless roots suck it up? if not how long till it leaves? i dont have an oxygen meter to run the test


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 21, 2011)

H202 disapates by the third day of being put in the water


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## trichome fiend (Oct 21, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> you have a chiller for the res? what temp do you keep it at?


...I don't have a chiller, my res sits on a basement floor and my temps always stay below 70 in the res.......the main reason for the H2O2 is to kill pathogens....I keep the light out of my res, I add plenty of bubbles, and H2O2....no brown slim. H2o2 disapates quickly and must be added every 3-4 days just as HR30 said....also, as Potpimp mentioned, the oxygen moecules will attach to the pathogens (killing them)...Al has gone pretty deep into detail about H2O2 somewhere in one of his threads, if I find the time, I'll quote his words....


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## tree king (Oct 22, 2011)

hellraizer30 said:


> H202 disapates by the third day of being put in the water


hellraizer, i think you and potpimp are giving two different answers on this subject. potpimp seems to be saying it never leaves and your saying it does. id like al to clear this up for us. thanks for the responses


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 22, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I don't have a chiller, my res sits on a basement floor and my temps always stay below 70 in the res.......the main reason for the H2O2 is to kill pathogens....I keep the light out of my res, I add plenty of bubbles, and H2O2....no brown slim. H2o2 disapates quickly and must be added every 3-4 days just as HR30 said....also, as Potpimp mentioned, the oxygen moecules will attach to the pathogens (killing them)...Al has gone pretty deep into detail about H2O2 somewhere in one of his threads, if I find the time, I'll quote his words....


its 

thanks, I am quite aware of Al's thoughts on h202 and why it's used. I just like hearing what others grower find helpful in there res.


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## hornedfrog2000 (Oct 22, 2011)

its doesn't ever "leave" it just changes back to water, sort of the same thing that ozone does with bad smells. It just gets used up, and needs to be replaced.


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## tree king (Oct 22, 2011)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> its doesn't ever "leave" it just changes back to water, sort of the same thing that ozone does with bad smells. It just gets used up, and needs to be replaced.


when i say leave im talking about the extra oxygen it adds. lets say sitting water has an oxygen level of 5.5 ppm and when you add h202 it then becomes 8.5 ppm. if roots arent taking up the water will it permanently stay at 8.5 oxygen level or does it return to 5.5 no mater what?


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## TruenoAE86coupe (Oct 22, 2011)

Water is H2O, so it is 33% oxygen always. (333,333 ppm).
Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2, so it is 50% oxygen (500,000 ppm). 
So by adding a little h202 you are not really adding much oxygen at all. You are adding hydrogen peroxide which works to kill pathogens, not increase the level of oxygen in the water.
The reason for using H2O2 has very little if nothing to do with oxygen at all, simply the effects of adding a sterilizing agent.


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## tree king (Oct 22, 2011)

TruenoAE86coupe said:


> Water is H2O, so it is 33% oxygen always. (333,333 ppm).
> Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2, so it is 50% oxygen (500,000 ppm).
> So by adding a little h202 you are not really adding much oxygen at all. You are adding hydrogen peroxide which works to kill pathogens, not increase the level of oxygen in the water.
> The reason for using H2O2 has very little if nothing to do with oxygen at all, simply the effects of adding a sterilizing agent.


thats false Trueno. my friend has an oxygen meter and sitting water comes up as 5.4 approx ppm and his bucket system water with expensive airstones and constantly moving water comes up as 6.7 ppm. he did a test and added h202 to his system and the meter read 8.5 ppm afterward. from his readings the h202 does a tremendous job at adding oxygen. the problem is my friend wants to argue with me and he doesnt want to run the type of test i want him to run. i told him to dump h202 in water that has nothing to do with growing and see if it still reads 8.5 like 2 weeks later thats what im trying to figure out. when the h202 is in his system at 10 ml a gal (29%) the meter slowly goes down as the plants use up the oxygen and by his calculations its totally gone in 24-36 hours


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## hornedfrog2000 (Oct 22, 2011)

you just want to argue?


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## tree king (Oct 22, 2011)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> you just want to argue?


i have no idea what your talkin about? were having a conversation and a couple people in this thread are saying 2 different things so im just trying to get to the bottom of it. its all good il wait for al

just to add in your last statement you werent talking about oxygen itself your were talking about the actual h202. this question is about the oxygen. heres your quote

"its doesn't ever "leave" it just changes back to water, sort of the same thing that ozone does with bad smells. It just gets used up, and needs to be replaced."

i dont like arguing with people


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## hornedfrog2000 (Oct 22, 2011)

Why ask if you're just going to debate about it. If you know how to test it, and what you're doing then have at it. I don't get why you would ask people how something is if you already have the answers.


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## tree king (Oct 22, 2011)

hornedfrog2000 said:


> Why ask if you're just going to debate about it. If you know how to test it, and what you're doing then have at it. I don't get why you would ask people how something is if you already have the answers.


i dont have the meter myself a friend does. im done talkin to you, il wait for al


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 22, 2011)

H2O2 breaks down to H2O and O2 the release of the free radicle or O2 is what decomposes organic matter in the res system. You actually want the H2O2 to decompose i would say to release the O2 and hence cleanse or sanitize the res system. 

H2O2 Eliminates protein structures through oxidization using the free O2 radicle which destroys all organic matter and leaves only pure water behind.

H2O2 when added to H2O or water forms a Eutectic solution which i believe means that temperature and pH exert a say on how quickly H2O2 breaks down over time and releases the O2 free radicle that gives the sanitizing action you want.

I too would ask for clarification of Al for what i have written. Peace


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## tree king (Oct 22, 2011)

Kingrow1 said:


> H2O2 breaks down to H2O and O2 the release of the free radicle or O2 is what decomposes organic matter in the res system. You actually want the H2O2 to decompose i would say to release the O2 and hence cleanse or sanitize the res system.
> 
> H2O2 Eliminates protein structures through oxidization using the free O2 radicle which destroys all organic matter and leaves only pure water behind.
> 
> ...


Kingrow, im sorry to keep saying the same thing over and over but my question isn't really related to how h202 works in general. the question is about how long the oxygen it adds stays in the water if the water isnt being consumed by plants


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## Kingrow1 (Oct 22, 2011)

tree king said:


> Kingrow, im sorry to keep saying the same thing over and over but my question isn't really related to how h202 works in general. the question is about how long the oxygen it adds stays in the water if the water isnt being consumed by plants


Sorry dude i wasnt trying to answer the question just get some clarification on H2O2 scientifically, i understand partially but i guess Al knows a lot more than me, hydrogen groups (hydroxyl i think) have recently peaked my intrest, dose not the O2 recombine with other Hydrogen molocules to crate H3O and similar structures or dissapate into the air. God i hope Al knows this stuff, hours of chemistry and science are not what i look forward to when stoned, school should have made me more cannabis specific aware but i guess they left this outa the syllabus. Peace


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## tree king (Oct 22, 2011)

Kingrow1 said:


> Sorry dude i wasnt trying to answer the question just get some clarification on H2O2 scientifically, i understand partially but i guess Al knows a lot more than me, hydrogen groups (hydroxyl i think) have recently peaked my intrest, dose not the O2 recombine with other Hydrogen molocules to crate H3O and similar structures or dissapate into the air. God i hope Al knows this stuff, hours of chemistry and science are not what i look forward to when stoned, school should have made me more cannabis specific aware but i guess they left this outa the syllabus. Peace


no problem brotha. yeah im definitely interested in what al has to say. take care


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## trichome fiend (Oct 23, 2011)

...here's my PPP, day #35!


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## trichome fiend (Oct 23, 2011)

tree king said:


> Kingrow, im sorry to keep saying the same thing over and over but my question isn't really related to how h202 works in general. the question is about how long the oxygen it adds stays in the water if the water isnt being consumed by plants


...here's something from the University of Illinois you might find interesting ---> http://www.life.illinois.edu/cheeseman/main/publications/peroxidePubs/PlStressH2O2review.pdf


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## tree king (Oct 23, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...here's something from the University of Illinois you might find interesting ---> http://www.life.illinois.edu/cheeseman/main/publications/peroxidePubs/PlStressH2O2review.pdf


you just made me remember why i never did good in school and hated it. the way that article is written is too complicated for me to understand but i appreciate you posting the link trichome fiend.


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## tree king (Oct 26, 2011)

al i wish you were a member at icmag so you could respond to this thread
https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=224381
this guy says he put 3 ml of 29% h202 in his aero cloner and it created slime everywhere. he also says he gave his plants 10ml a gallon of 29% h202 and all 4 of his plants died. i know he's full of it but i wish you were a member so you could respond there


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 26, 2011)

panhead said:


> Just wanted to let ya know the plastic over the table is the bomb & might help you if your still batteling humid conditions in your room,its been spot on for me.


 If it works for you, great. I prefer not to do it that way for a couple of reasons, both those I've previously mentioned and limits on plant portability. I like to be able to move plants around in case of uneven development. My dehumidifier takes care of any humidity issues I have, which due to the peculiar circumstances of my op's location, are not only caused by evaporation from the media. Thanks for the note, nonetheless. 



Highhopes99 said:


> Yes that is what I am trying to do thanks for the great diagram.
> but how would one hook up intake fans to the thermostat controll without the power
> looping back causing the intake to run continually on the msc. I want the intake to shut of and on with the thermo switch and not msc when the switch is open (disabled) .. maybe some sort of diode relay that only lets power flow toward the fan?  thanks for your time Al.


 If you have 'power looping back causing the intake to run continuously' you've wired it wrong. Follow the diagram I drew for you. No diodes are necessary in this situation and in fact with AC, would create problems. Check your wiring & try again. 



Long Dogg said:


> I took off this site when you started a new job a while back, I learned so much from you.
> Glad to see your back teaching the masses.
> 
> Thank You


 Thanks for the thanks. 



don2009 said:


> Hey Al iM not a big social person even on the internet. But when I first came to RIU I went to the forums section just off of instant and I knew I wanted to do hydro and I went straight to your thread harvest every 2 week and I immediatly started reading non stop very profound shit bro. Then I was so excited you seem like a celebrity to me, I was like dame I wish I could of been around when you was, just to think of a question to get an answer. lol 4 real. An d I almost got a lecture from you on this post WOW! Thanks bro But I really needed the info not just some Q&A shit. Anyway Al can you refer me to some electrical litature so I can learn the basics to get my issue solved the way you learn? Im really stressing this shit now I did not expect this much $$$$$$$$ and complex knowledge. Espically with electrical everytime I say this is it with spending $$$$ theres another important issue. I spend almost 4-5k just to get my bull shit yields trying to get to your yield and op going now electrical. Is there any thing else vital I have to worry about? Can you do a thread about your thoughts on electrical and the price on getting your op going exactly the way you going now? Thanks bro your a scientist.


 Thanks for the thanks. 

The key to good yields is making your op produce certain conditions. It has to maintain the correct temp (24-26C) & RH (40-60%) while also having sufficient ventilation to remove heat and introduce fresh, CO2-laden air. The op has to be constructed so exhaust air cannot easily be re-drawn into the op. You need accurate measurement devices so you KNOW what the temp, RH, nutrient TDS & pH are at all times. When you're sure of what's going on, you can make corrections as needed- and you _will_ get good results. I probably won't do any new threads on RIU. It's hard enough for me to keep up with this one. If you have any specific questions, feel free to ask them here. 



Highhopes99 said:


> Hey nice setup,
> What kind of air stone size are you using in your Rez?
> I'm looking into requirements for my 120 liter res for flood and drain perlite, any suggestions? Also would love to see some pics of your root development inside your tables( maybe when you chop). Thanks


 My air "stones" (they're not stone) are foam sleeves with a stainless steel tube core which keeps them from floating. They're about 250-300mm long. Will post pix the next time it's convenient to do so. 



hiluxphantom said:


> u got any advice on meally bugs?
> and what kind of bulbs should i get I'm thinking of 4 400 hortilux blues or 2 600s and a 1000or maybe 4 400s plus a 1000


 No advice on mealy bugs at all. Never seen them in an op- had to look them up on Wikipedia to even know what they are. A broad spectrum insecticide, applied weekly for a while, should make them go away. 

As regards the lamps- all you need is HPS for flowering- they'll work fine for mums as well I use 2x1000HPS over 4x900mmx900mm trays for my flowering are & 1x400HPS for the mums. Fluoros in my clone box. The fewer lamps, the better, in most cases. Ballasts waste a certain amount of power in converting voltage and controlling current to suit the lamp, so fewer, larger lamps are better. You do not need to have broad spectrum lighting for flowering plants. In flower, the plants mainly need a red-yellow spectrum, as they'd get outdoors in autumn. It's not necessary at all to add blue lighting for flowering plants. Waste of time & money. 




Highhopes99 said:


> I know al uses 1 ml per liter of 50% grade. But I can only get 29% so I would have to use 1.7 ml per liter Which would be over 255ml every 3 days! Over 1 liter every 2 weeks for 1 res. That seems a bit much.


 For a large res, that sounds about right. You may not be able to get anything stronger than 30% in North America. The story I'm told is that 50% is restricted as it may be able to be used in making TATP, a highly unstable but easy to make explosive commonly used by terrorists. I'm not into amateur bomb-making, so I don't know if that story is true or not. You may be able to get 50% grade from chemical supply houses or you may be able to persuade your local hydro shop to order the stuff in from said chemical suppliers. 



trichome fiend said:


> ....yeap, I use h2o2....I use the 30%, and I typically only add a ml per gallon. I try to stay focused on res temps and bubbles in the res also.


 If you're keeping pathogens under control with 1ml per 3.78L (1 gallon) of nute soln, fine. BTW, make friends with the metric system. It's SO much easier to use than ounces/pints/quarts/gallons etc. 



tree king said:


> al i got a question about how h202 works since your a scientist. what would happen if i just dumped 6.9 ml of 29% h202 in a gallon of water but i didnt use the water to grow with. to be more clear after i dump it in i know the oxygen level will be higher. will the oxygen level in the water be higher permanently and never leave because its liquid oxygen and it isnt being givin to the plants and sucked up by the roots? if its possible for the extra oxygen from the h202 to leave the water without being sucked up by the roots then how long will it last until its totally gone and can you explain scientifically how its able to leave since i think it stays liquid oxygen? im just trying to figure out if the reason you have to give h202 to plants every 3-4 days is because the plants are using it all up or if it breaks down and disappears even when plants arent using it up. thanks


 H2O2 breaks down into GASEOUS hydrogen and oxygen. Water will retain a certain amount of dissolved gases (more retention of dissolved O2 when the nute soln is cooler) but they will leave the soln through evaporation in time. There's a number of factors which will change the rate at which dissolved O2 will leave the solution; size of the res, nute soln temperature, etc. When H2O2 comes in contact with dead organic matter or microbes, it breaks down quickly into H2 & O2, so the greater the pathogen load in the solution, the faster the H2O2 concentration will drop. You can get test kits which will indicate the amount of H2O2 in your nute soln. 



Highhopes99 said:


> you have a chiller for the res? what temp do you keep it at?


 If you realllly want to know how much dissolved O2 your water will hold, you can calculate it- see http://antoine.frostburg.edu/chem/senese/101/solutions/faq/predicting-DO.shtml

However, in a hydroponic grow op, it's generally enoguh to know that keeping your nutes cooler will increase the dissolved O2 in solution. However, making it _*very*_ cold will reduce the roots' uptake of O2:

From: http://www.simplyhydro.com/nutrient_temp.htm



> *Nutrient Temperature - Oxygen and Pythium in Hydroponics
> by Dr. Lynette Morgan, Courtesy of NA Greenhouse*
> 
> The hydroponic nutrient solution is not just a mix of fertilizer salts and water, there are a number of organisms and compounds commonly found in our hydroponic systems that we need to be aware of. One of the most important of these is dissolved oxygen, which is vital for the health and strength of the root system as well as being necessary for nutrient uptake.
> ...





tree king said:


> hellraizer, i think you and potpimp are giving two different answers on this subject. potpimp seems to be saying it never leaves and your saying it does. id like al to clear this up for us. thanks for the responses


 H2O2 certainly does break down into gaseous H2 & O2 and will exit the soln eventually. As a general rule, H2O2 will remain in soln for 2-4 days depending upon various factors. This is why I recommend re-dosing the soln every 3-4 days. 



hornedfrog2000 said:


> its doesn't ever "leave" it just changes back to water, sort of the same thing that ozone does with bad smells. It just gets used up, and needs to be replaced.


 Some of the H2O2 converts into water, some departs the soln as gaseous H2 & O2. 



tree king said:


> when i say leave im talking about the extra oxygen it adds. lets say sitting water has an oxygen level of 5.5 ppm and when you add h202 it then becomes 8.5 ppm. if roots arent taking up the water will it permanently stay at 8.5 oxygen level or does it return to 5.5 no mater what?


 The dissolved O2 holding capability of water is dependent upon temperature. The dissolved O2 level will eventually drop as th O2 exits the soln through evaporation. 



TruenoAE86coupe said:


> Water is H2O, so it is 33% oxygen always. (333,333 ppm).
> Hydrogen Peroxide is H2O2, so it is 50% oxygen (500,000 ppm).
> So by adding a little h202 you are not really adding much oxygen at all. You are adding hydrogen peroxide which works to kill pathogens, not increase the level of oxygen in the water.
> The reason for using H2O2 has very little if nothing to do with oxygen at all, simply the effects of adding a sterilizing agent.


 H2O2 works BOTH to kill pathogens and oxygenate the solution. 



tree king said:


> thats false Trueno. my friend has an oxygen meter and sitting water comes up as 5.4 approx ppm and his bucket system water with expensive airstones and constantly moving water comes up as 6.7 ppm. he did a test and added h202 to his system and the meter read 8.5 ppm afterward. from his readings the h202 does a tremendous job at adding oxygen. the problem is my friend wants to argue with me and he doesnt want to run the type of test i want him to run. i told him to dump h202 in water that has nothing to do with growing and see if it still reads 8.5 like 2 weeks later thats what im trying to figure out. when the h202 is in his system at 10 ml a gal (29%) the meter slowly goes down as the plants use up the oxygen and by his calculations its totally gone in 24-36 hours


Precisely. 



tree king said:


> al i wish you were a member at icmag so you could respond to this thread
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=224381
> this guy says he put 3 ml of 29% h202 in his aero cloner and it created slime everywhere. he also says he gave his plants 10ml a gallon of 29% h202 and all 4 of his plants died. i know he's full of it but i wish you were a member so you could respond there


H2O2 will not 'create slime' anywhere. I don't know what this guy is doing wrong, but he's certainly doing something wrong. I don't have the time to chase up every inaccuracy on RIU, let alone on other boards. It's sufficient to say that this fellow is mistaken. 10ml of 29% H2O2 in 3.78L of water is about 3x the usual dosage I run in my tanks, but it's not enough to hurt anything. 

I don't half wonder if this guy bought a very old container of H2O2 which had broken down into mainly H2O & O2 (the latter which escaped as a gas). That would explain the 'slime' (probably an accumulation of pythium) and the death of his cuttings from rot, since there was no H2O2 in his solution to kill the pathogens.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 26, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I like to be able to move plants around in case of uneven development.


....ya got me there! I wish I could move'em around.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 26, 2011)

If you have 'power looping back causing the intake to run continuously' you've wired it wrong. Follow the diagram I drew for you. No diodes are necessary in this situation and in fact with AC, would create problems. Check your wiring & try again. 



here is the problem..... you can see now how the power goes in two directions after the msc. a little more clear this time I hope.. thanks Al


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## dankhoe417 (Oct 27, 2011)

Al - Very interested to see these Foam air stones. Now I have something new to obsess about.


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## dankhoe417 (Oct 27, 2011)

BTW Al, went to the local sheet metal shop to see how much it would be to have them make an Adjust-a-wing for my cool tube. Dude was awesome and made one out of scrap embossed stainless..... For FREE. Damn, I love this hobby!


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## IAm5toned (Oct 27, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> For a large res, that sounds about right. You may not be able to get anything stronger than 30% in North America. The story I'm told is that 50% is restricted as it may be able to be used in making TATP, a highly unstable but easy to make explosive commonly used by terrorists. I'm not into amateur bomb-making, so I don't know if that story is true or not. You may be able to get 50% grade from chemical supply houses or you may be able to persuade your local hydro shop to order the stuff in from said chemical suppliers.


Al is correct... be VERY VERY careful ordering any h2o2 in the US @ concentrations higher than 30%... or else you might get a suprise visit from the alphabet boys... or in the least, end up on a watch list. Just sayin...


----------



## tree king (Oct 27, 2011)

thanks for the responses once again al


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 27, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> If you have 'power looping back causing the intake to run continuously' you've wired it wrong. Follow the diagram I drew for you. No diodes are necessary in this situation and in fact with AC, would create problems. Check your wiring & try again.


 
This ckt is designed specifically to allow the fan/s to run at a limited speed when the air temp was below the setpoint. I thought that's what you wanted. If you only want the exhaust fan to run at a limited speed when air temp is below the setpoint, you'll need a thermostatic switch with two sets of contacts or two thermostatic switches. In any case, power is not 'looping back.' Current flows in one direction only, from source to sink. 



dankhoe417 said:


> Al - Very interested to see these Foam air stones. Now I have something new to obsess about.


 They're here: http://www.accenthydroponics.com/ecom1/prod1.htm



dankhoe417 said:


> BTW Al, went to the local sheet metal shop to see how much it would be to have them make an Adjust-a-wing for my cool tube. Dude was awesome and made one out of scrap embossed stainless..... For FREE. Damn, I love this hobby!


Whoa. Can't beat that!



IAm5toned said:


> Al is correct... be VERY VERY careful ordering any h2o2 in the US @ concentrations higher than 30%... or else you might get a suprise visit from the alphabet boys... or in the least, end up on a watch list. Just sayin...


While I suppose that may be possible, it's a bit of a stretch to think that buying high-strength H2O2 would put one on any sort of terrorism watch list. It's a common chemical for use in hydroponics and not just hydroponics used for growing cannabis. Particularly if you persuade your local hydro shop to stock it, I can't see a problem.


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## william69er (Oct 27, 2011)

Hay al.b I sprayed my plants with neem the other day and got a bit of it in the res while they were on the floor. The mothers res went cray throffy and reacted with the ho2o I'm gessing.so I changed it and wat not but it's to late.the mothers are looking like shit.oh and I pulled one out of the pot becuse it died and it was WEll root bound.but dno wat to do with the other mothers that look like poo?? Any ideals I still need clones in two weeks.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 27, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> you'll need a thermostatic switch with two sets of contacts or two thermostat switches.


Thanks Al, 
Would that be called a double pole thermostat? 
What are you using for your intake fans? 
Do you run two thermo switches, Or does both your intake and exaust fans run on constant Motor speed controller when temps are down?


----------



## smalltymer (Oct 28, 2011)

hey al. just want to verify something and make sure im understanding this correctly before i try it. you take your clones that youve been feeding plain water and (when ready) place them in youre flowering tray and feed them straight 1000ppm @ 5.8PH sauce for there first feeding? i plan on going with canna veg and flower like you have going on. what you think?

btw is this what you use? http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=NLCAF05&eq=&Tp=


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## trichome fiend (Oct 30, 2011)

...flush time for the PPP!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 30, 2011)

william69er said:


> Hay al.b I sprayed my plants with neem the other day and got a bit of it in the res while they were on the floor. The mothers res went cray throffy and reacted with the ho2o I'm gessing.so I changed it and wat not but it's to late.the mothers are looking like shit.oh and I pulled one out of the pot becuse it died and it was WEll root bound.but dno wat to do with the other mothers that look like poo?? Any ideals I still need clones in two weeks.


 Cray throffy, huh? Damn. I have no idea WHAT the fuck that means, but it certainly doesn't sound good. 

What were you spraying the plants with neem oil for? 

My best advice it to prune back the mother plants to undamaged growth and veg them until they recover. It'll probably take at least 2 weeks, provided their root systems are not damaged. 



Highhopes99 said:


> Thanks Al,
> Would that be called a double pole thermostat?


It could be, yes. 



> What are you using for your intake fans?


A pair of 150mm axial blowers running in parallel. Their capacity is slightly less than that of my 250mm centrifugal exhaust blower. This keeps the grow room at a slightly negative pressure so that all air leaving the room goes through the carbon filter. 



> Do you run two thermo switches, Or does both your intake and exaust fans run on constant Motor speed controller when temps are down?


I use a single thermostat to run both intake & exhaust blowers. I don't use a speed controller for constant ventilation because it's not needed in my case. In my specific case, it would make the room run too cool. Your mileage may vary. 



smalltymer said:


> hey al. just want to verify something and make sure im understanding this correctly before i try it. you take your clones that youve been feeding plain water and (when ready) place them in youre flowering tray and feed them straight 1000ppm @ 5.8PH sauce for there first feeding?


Yep. 



> i plan on going with canna veg and flower like you have going on. what you think?


It'll work fine. Canna has been very good for consistent results for me over the last decade. 



> btw is this what you use? http://www.bghydro.com/BGH/itemdesc.asp?ic=NLCAF05&eq=&Tp=


That's similar to what I use. The version marketed in Australia does not use the word 'Aqua' in the labelling.


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## william69er (Oct 30, 2011)

Sorry al.b It was meant to be "crazy frothey" just didn't know how to spell it.yea I'm not sure about the roots becuse there in there pots and don't like pulling them out becuse the perlight and rock wool might go every were.I have spider mite just waiting to get some cash to get some peditor mites and or co2 to get rid of em.
What do you thinks better in regards to mothers short and sqwat or tall and Lolly poped?


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 31, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...flush time for the PPP!
> 
> View attachment 1862875View attachment 1862874View attachment 1862873View attachment 1862872
> View attachment 1862871View attachment 1862870View attachment 1862869View attachment 1862868


Looks great man! How much you think yield will be?


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## trichome fiend (Oct 31, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Looks great man! How much you think yield will be?


...I typically pull 14-16 ounces with this 600....I'm thinking 15-16 this round. Dankx!


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## don2009 (Oct 31, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I typically pull 14-16 ounces with this 600....I'm thinking 15-16 this round. Dankx!


With 1 or 2 600 watt 15-16 oz??????? WoW! How many plants, what type of reflector, strain & is it potent, what type of ballast,bulb, and wheres you temp/Humid at and any info you can think of. Thanks you guys for the good pics and info great thread.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 31, 2011)

don2009 said:


> With 1 or 2 600 watt 15-16 oz??????? WoW! How many plants, what type of reflector, strain & is it potent, what type of ballast,bulb, and wheres you temp/Humid at and any info you can think of. Thanks you guys for the good pics and info great thread.


...20 kids under 1-600 watt HPS Lumatek bulb with a 600 watt Netgen digital ballest. Sunleaves 6" aircooled reflector with the double parabolic dented metal dome. That strain is Pure Power Plant, but I've yielded better....just go with an Indica dominate strain, for the most part....temps= 65-80F...RH= 30-50%...hydro, SoG, co2.....and alot of L-O-V-E.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 31, 2011)

...I added a 2 liter of soda to get a size perspective.


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## don2009 (Oct 31, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...20 kids under 1-600 watt HPS Lumatek bulb with a 600 watt Netgen digital ballest. Sunleaves 6" aircooled reflector with the double parabolic dented metal dome. That strain is Pure Power Plant, but I've yielded better....just go with an Indica dominate strain, for the most part....temps= 65-80F...RH= 30-50%...hydro, SoG, co2.....and alot of L-O-V-E.


Good stuff bro your doing very wellfor yourself & from my research. Now I know I need to go harder thanks again bro.


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## don2009 (Oct 31, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...20 kids under 1-600 watt HPS Lumatek bulb with a 600 watt Netgen digital ballest. Sunleaves 6" aircooled reflector with the double parabolic dented metal dome. That strain is Pure Power Plant, but I've yielded better....just go with an Indica dominate strain, for the most part....temps= 65-80F...RH= 30-50%...hydro, SoG, co2.....and alot of L-O-V-E.


Hows the potency? Nice pic^^


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## Shwagbag (Oct 31, 2011)

I love the PPP, its said to be mostly sativa by the breeder I got my genetics from but it tends to grow more like an indica and finishes quickly. I've grown several mothers and didn't really notice much variation from one to the next, seemed very stable. I've had the current one going for a year or two. The only real difference I noticed was a purpling of the leaves under cold stress late in flower. Most people that have tried it seem to recommend it for quality and cultivation. Its one of the easiest plants I've grown as it responds well to heavy feeding (soil for me) and it is highly disease and illness proof. 

Great plants TF!


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 31, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I typically pull 14-16 ounces with this 600....I'm thinking 15-16 this round. Dankx!


Nicely done keep us updated.


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## don2009 (Oct 31, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> I love the PPP, its said to be mostly sativa by the breeder I got my genetics from but it tends to grow more like an indica and finishes quickly. I've grown several mothers and didn't really notice much variation from one to the next, seemed very stable. I've had the current one going for a year or two. The only real difference I noticed was a purpling of the leaves under cold stress late in flower. Most people that have tried it seem to recommend it for quality and cultivation. Its one of the easiest plants I've grown as it responds well to heavy feeding (soil for me) and it is highly disease and illness proof.
> 
> Great plants TF!


Thanks for the info Shawag. BTW that avatar makes me want to jerk off!


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## Sandbagger (Oct 31, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> .....Would that be called a double pole thermostat? .....


Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it would be called a double throw.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 31, 2011)

Sandbagger said:


> Correct me if I am wrong, but I think it would be called a double throw.


Correcting.

Two single pole switches ganged to one actuator is called DPST (double pole, single throw).


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## don2009 (Oct 31, 2011)

Hey Al what type of reflectors you have? And are you still using cool tubes?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 31, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Hey Al what type of reflectors you have? And are you still using cool tubes?


I use modified Adjust-a-wings: http://www.adjustawings.com/

The modification is the fitment of cooltubes.


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## Highhopes99 (Oct 31, 2011)

Thanks for all the help with the electrical ABF

May seem like a dumb question but was wondering were I should place my thermometer in the grow room. Should the temp be at 25 degress directly under the air cooled lamps? If I move it outside the tables I loose 5 degrees. Were should the temp be monitored?


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Thanks for all the help with the electrical ABF


No wucking furries. 



> May seem like a dumb question but was wondering were I should place my thermometer in the grow room. Should the temp be at 25 degress directly under the air cooled lamps? If I move it outside the tables I loose 5 degrees. Were should the temp be monitored?


Not a dumb question at all. 

If the thermostat is placed where light can hit it, radiant IR will warm the thermostat's temp sensor (be that semiconductor (thermistor), mercury bulb or bimetallic spring), making the apparent temperature several degrees warmer than the actual air temperature. You need to measure the air temperature alone. 

Shade the thermostat or place it out of the light pattern coverage. If you have enough oscillating circulation fans going to flutter every leaf in the op every 20 sec or so, the air temperature will be fairly homogeneous throughout the room- in that case, the thermostat can be placed anywhere, but at plant level is best.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> ever[/I] have to ever use expensive RO or filtration systems is if one is sourcing water from a local bore/well, where water may contain high levels of salinity or sulfur. In 25 years of growing dope, I've never once seen tapwater from a municipal system cause problems in a hydroponic grow op.


So are you saying I should chuck my RO filter and start using straight tap water out of my faucet and my grows will be just as good as they were in the past with filtered water? Just want to double check on that.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> So are you saying I should chuck my RO filter and start using straight tap water out of my faucet and my grows will be just as good as they were in the past with filtered water? Just want to double check on that.


Or, as you originally wrote (text as appeared in my email notice of a reply to this thread):



> So are you saying I should chuck my RO filter and start using straight tap water out of my faucet and my grows will be just as good as they were in the past with filtered water? I don't believe that.


Believe it. If water is of suitable quality for drinking- and chlorinated, fluoridated water from a muni treatment plant most assuredly is- it's ideal for hydroponic growing. RO filtration is completely unnecessary for water from a municipal reticulation system.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Or, as you originally wrote (text as appeared in my email notice of a reply to this thread):
> 
> 
> 
> Believe it. If water is of suitable quality for drinking- and chlorinated, fluoridated water from a muni treatment plant most assuredly is- it's ideal for hydroponic growing. RO filtration is completely unnecessary for water from a municipal reticulation system.


Still not convinced. I think there is too wide a variance from one municipality to another. And sure, you could drink my faucet water and you won't keel over, but it's far from suitable drinking water by my standards and my plant's standards. I already wasted my money on my RO filter, so I'll think I'll just keep using it, thanks.

I had a lengthy discussion with the guy at my hydro shop about how the very nature of hydro growing is about variables on a case-by-case basis. We were agreed that even if he and I ran the exact same system, we wouldn't have the exact same results. We know what has worked for us, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to work for everyone.

Edit:
And I re-worded my original post in an attempt to present my question in a milder fashion, but since you called me out... Okay. I find that piece of advice suspect.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

Be unconvinced if you so choose. Water quality from muni system to muni system will insubstantially vary but not in any manner significant to its use in hydroponic growing. 

If you want to know what's in your water, your local treatment plant will provide you with analysis data on your request- they often publish it on their websites. 

Seriously, how do you think plants have managed for the last few million years on that filthy, nasty rainwater that's been filtered through soil? C'mon.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Be unconvinced if you so choose. Water quality from muni system to muni system will insubstantially vary but not in any manner significant to its use in hydroponic growing.
> 
> If you want to know what's in your water, your local treatment plant will provide you with analysis data on your request- they often publish it on their websites.
> 
> Seriously, how do you think plants have managed for the last few million years on that filthy, nasty rainwater that's been filtered through soil? C'mon.


Plants surviving in the wild outside is one thing, but I think we indoor hydro growers strive for better quality than the bush growing by the side of the highway.

I have a pretty good idea of what's in my water without any kind of municipal analysis because I can see it building up in my sediment filter. It looks like an accumulation of sewer sludge... And when I clean out my filters... total sewer smell. I wouldn't characterize that as ideal for anything.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

The material trapped in your sediment filter is almost certainly iron oxide particles- yep, rust from ageing pipes. 

One thing it almost certainly _*isn't*_ is sewerage. Bear in mind that the water reticulation is pressurised- nothing's going to seep IN to a pressurised water main from a nearby sewerage system. If there's sewerage in your water main, it would have to enter at the head end of the system and would be distributed throughout the system. The city-wide cholera epidemic just might draw some small amount of attention.

If you have an RO system and wish to use it, fine. Those who are on muni water should not go out and buy one, though. Just not necessary- and fairly expensive, to boot.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The material trapped in your sediment filter is almost certainly iron oxide particles- yep, rust from ageing pipes.
> 
> One thing it almost certainly _*isn't*_ is sewerage. Bear in mind that the water reticulation is pressurised- nothing's going to seep IN to a pressurised water main from a nearby sewerage system. If there's sewerage in your water main, it would have to enter at the head end of the system and would be distributed throughout the system. The city-wide cholera epidemic just might draw some small amount of attention.
> 
> If you have an RO system and wish to use it, fine. Those who are on muni water should not go out and buy one, though. Just not necessary- and fairly expensive, to boot.


Granted, sewer-like, but not actual sewage.

Has anyone conducted a field study of your report and found it to be conclusively true? I ask that because I can't tell you how many noobs suffered because they used straight faucet water. They eliminate every possible error (except the tap water) and wonder why their seedlings died.

I'm not trying to bust your balls, and your pressure explanation makes sense. Just call me a doubting Thomas (but a friendly one).

Much respect to you, Al.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> Has anyone conducted a field study of your report and found it to be conclusively true?
> 
> I'm not trying to bust your balls, and your pressure explanation makes sense. Just call me a doubting Thomas (but a friendly one).
> 
> Much respect to you, Al.


Well, thanks for the respect and all that, but a field study isn't going to be particularly useful in proving a negative. 

Water processed through a muni treatment plant is significantly cleaner than rainwater and will have levels of dissolved minerals etc. which will not harm human health. Good enough for your coffee, good enough for your plants.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, thanks for the respect and all that, but a field study isn't going to be particularly useful in proving a negative.
> 
> Water processed through a muni treatment plant is significantly cleaner than rainwater and will have levels of dissolved minerals etc. which will not harm human health. Good enough for your coffee, good enough for your plants.


Field studies are conducted to prove or disprove anything, positive or negative.

Are you in the United States or Europe?

If you ain't from the US, you don't know what bad water is.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> Field studies are conducted to prove or disprove anything, positive or negative.


Proving a negative with absolute certainty is functionally impossible. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but unless you have some concrete symptom for which you're looking for a cause, you will chase your tail and waste a lot of time- and money- searching for something evil which in all likelihood does not exist. 

The vast majority of (well, 'all') hydroponic grow ops running on muni water get by just fine without additional water filtration. Cannabis plants are not sensitive princesses which require over-the-top water filtration. 



> Are you in the United States or Europe?


Neither. Australia.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Proving a negative with absolute certainty is functionally impossible. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, but unless you have some concrete symptom for which you're looking for a cause, you will chase your tail and waste a lot of time- and money- searching for something evil which in all likelihood does not exist.
> 
> The vast majority of (well, 'all') hydroponic grow ops running on muni water get by just fine without additional water filtration. Cannabis plants are not sensitive princesses which require over-the-top water filtration.
> 
> ...


Then how did you prove that RO is NOT necessary? That's a negative. More, not just for your Austrailian municiple water sources, but for every municipality in every state in the US? Perhaps your information is correct world-wide?

How about a side by side? Any Los Angeles growers want to experiment with an RO plant and a tap water plant side by side to see which one does better?


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

The claim that RO is required for growing cannabis in hydroponics is extraordinary. The burden of proof of an extraordinary claim lies with the claimant. So- how did you determine that RO is necessary? Specifically, what problem were you seeking to resolve- and did it work?


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> The claim that RO is required for growing cannabis in hydroponics is extraordinary. The burden of proof of an extraordinary claim lies with the claimant. So- how did you determine that RO is necessary? Specifically, what problem were you seeking to resolve- and did it work?


I never clamined RO is necessary for all hydroponic growers, but you claim that RO is a waste of time and money for everyone.

You said proving a negative is impossible. How did you prove RO is NOT necessary, not just for you, but for everyone?

Edit: And what problem was I trying to solve? Let's see, that would be getting the stinking chlorine/sewer smell out of my water before feeding to my plants. And yes, it worked.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

Chlorination is not only harmless to plants but pathogen suppression in the reticulation system is a highly desirable outcome. If you can smell chlorine in your water, that's evidence of UNDERchlorination, which, along with any objectionable 'sewer' smell, that you should pursue with the LA water treatment authority. 

So, what was the actual problem _*with your plants *_that you were looking to resolve? Did it work?


----------



## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Chlorination is not only harmless to plants but pathogen suppression in the reticulation system is a highly desirable outcome. If you can smell chlorine in your water, that's evidence of UNDERchlorination, which, along with any objectionable 'sewer' smell, that you should pursue with the LA water treatment authority.
> 
> So, what was the actual problem _*with your plants *_that you were looking to resolve? Did it work?


Stop dancing around my question with scientific sounding mumbo jumbo. 

First you say that RO is not necessary to all, then you say it is scientifically impossible to prove a negative. Which is it?

Then you go on to say that I clamied RO is necessary to all (which I never did) and then say the burden of proof is on the claimant? I never claimed such a thing.

Confusing.


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## cerberus (Nov 1, 2011)

i think its both man, he is saying it does NOT help and how can he prove it NOT helpig. se his question is can you prove it DOES help (a positive)..

my .02 but I don't think Fuct is being arguementative here..

p.s. scientific sounding mumbo jumbo? lol nice..


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> Stop dancing around my question with scientific sounding mumbo jumbo.


What 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' would that be? 

It's timely at this moment to make the earth-shattering observation that hydro shops are in business to make a profit. They sell a number of products of dubious benefit to the user but of very concrete benefit to the shop's bottom line. Shops employ salespeople to persuade customers of the benefit of products, without necessarily providing any solid evidence that the products are necessary.

It's OK- you can admit that you were sold a bill of goods on dubious claims of benefit. We won't think you were suckered or anything.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

cerberus said:


> i think its both man, he is saying it does NOT help and how can he prove it NOT helpig. se his question is can you prove it DOES help (a positive)..
> 
> my .02 but I don't think Fuct is being arguementative here..
> 
> p.s. scientific sounding mumbo jumbo? lol nice..


If he can't prove it NOT helping, then how can he say it doesn't help? He's making claims here, not me... so the burden of proof is on him.


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## *BUDS (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> What 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' would that be?
> 
> It's timely at this moment to make the earth-shattering observation that hydro shops are in business to make a profit. They sell a number of products of dubious benefit to the user but of very concrete benefit to the shop's bottom line. Shops employ salespeople to persuade customers of the benefit of products, without necessarily providing any solid evidence that the products are necessary.
> 
> It's OK- you can admit that you were sold a bill of goods on dubious claims of benefit. We won't think you were suckered or anything.


I agree my hydro shop has everything in 250g bags, small bottles etc, cant get bulk. How did you convince them to get 20L H2O2 in?


----------



## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> What 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' would that be?
> 
> It's timely at this moment to make the earth-shattering observation that hydro shops are in business to make a profit. They sell a number of products of dubious benefit to the user but of very concrete benefit to the shop's bottom line. Shops employ salespeople to persuade customers of the benefit of products, without necessarily providing any solid evidence that the products are necessary.
> 
> It's OK- you can admit that you were sold a bill of goods on dubious claims of benefit. We won't think you were suckered or anything.


So you're giving me a life lesson on the moral shortcomings of retail operations? Maybe you should try patronizing a first time grower instead of me. What? Everything they have on the shelves at my hydro store is not absolutely essential? My, my thanks for letting me in on that.

I'll admit that when you admit your information isn't perfect.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> If he can't prove it NOT helping, then how can he say it doesn't help? He's making claims here, not me... so the burden of proof is on him.


I repeat: The claim that RO is required for growing cannabis in hydroponics is extraordinary. The burden of proof of an extraordinary claim lies with the claimant. So- how did you determine that RO is necessary? Specifically, what problem were you seeking to resolve- and did it work?

And what was that 'scientific sounding mumbo jumbo' you were accusing me of a few posts back?

You're at very high risk of being deemed a troll at this point. Knock it off, begone or I'll see to it that you are gone. Remember, I am a mod now, albeit a somewhat reluctant one. 



*BUDS said:


> I agree my hydro shop has everything in 250g bags, small bottles etc, cant get bulk. How did you convince them to get 20L H2O2 in?


Oh, they can get bulk packaging if they want to. However, if you guessed that the margin is higher on small packages, your guess is right. Ask them for larger packages. If they won't respond to your requests for larger size packages with appropriate discounting, shop elsewhere. My hydro supplier was quite happy to buy in 25kg jugs of H2O2, particularly after I did the shopping for them, obtained pallet-quantity pricing and indicated what I would be willing to pay, which included a healthy profit for the shop.


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## RL420 (Nov 1, 2011)

the process of RO is hella wasteful


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## RavenMochi (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> Then how did you prove that RO is NOT necessary? That's a negative. More, not just for your Austrailian municiple water sources, but for every municipality in every state in the US? Perhaps your information is correct world-wide?
> 
> How about a side by side? Any Los Angeles growers want to experiment with an RO plant and a tap water plant side by side to see which one does better?


Well, why don't you. Your a very capable grower, and you have every other variable worked out, your as good as any to do such a thing. If he's wrong, the proof will be in the pudding. 


lordjin said:


> So you're giving me a life lesson on the moral shortcomings of retail operations? Maybe you should try patronizing a first time grower instead of me. What? Everything they have on the shelves at my hydro store is not absolutely essential? My, my thanks for letting me in on that.
> 
> I'll admit that when you admit your information isn't perfect.


 This is his thread, Jin, who's patronizing who? I'm sure reading his advice came off as insulting, your a snob with your methods, not necessarily a bad thing, its given you excellent results, but you know you are. You let it hit your ego, don't. If you want to prove him wrong based on what you see from your filters, a simple side by side done 12/12 from seed or clone from a short flowering indica will give you the quickest results. But since this little back and forth has started not nearly as many questions are being answered. You could start your own such thread in Aero, it is your specialty after all. 
In conclusion, nice pic, she's a new one.


----------



## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

RavenMochi said:


> Well, why don't you. Your a very capable grower, and you have every other variable worked out, your as good as any to do such a thing. If he's wrong, the proof will be in the pudding.
> 
> This is his thread, Jin, who's patronizing who? I'm sure reading his advice came off as insulting, your a snob with your methods, not necessarily a bad thing, its given you excellent results, but you know you are. You let it hit your ego, don't. If you want to prove him wrong based on what you see from your filters, a simple side by side done 12/12 from seed or clone from a short flowering indica will give you the quickest results. But since this little back and forth has started not nearly as many questions are being answered. You could start your own such thread in Aero, it is your specialty after all.
> In conclusion, nice pic, she's a new one.


Alright, message received. But this information is posted here as if it's gospel. All I'm saying is that no matter how long we've been growing, or how much we think we know, there are no absolutes. I don't claim to know everything. He does. So why is it such a sin to question that? Especially when someone starts such an elaborate 'educational' thread with, " a few folks have been drinking FarkingClueless&#8482; by the megalitre." 

He seems to think that his information is absolutely correct without any question. Does RIU feel the same?

Edit:

And since he's the one claiming absolute correctness without any proof by example, shouldn't he have to convince us?

I have a beginner in another thread who is trying to germ Attitude seeds in rockwool. He did everything as I would have done it and his seedlings died... everything EXCEPT the RO water. So he's now removing that last variable and trying again. This could serve as a test of sorts.


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## RavenMochi (Nov 1, 2011)

Not really, think of it this way. People come here knowing this info is according to him. Its their responsibility to do homework on the advice they get. If he was going thread to thread, that would be a different matter, but as far as I can tell, he only answers questions here. 
Not to mention that would require a MASSIVE operational grow to test all waters in every municipality. He's proven it in his area solidly. Being in Australia, I can't even think of what he would have to do to get LA tap water, especially enough for a full grow. You on the other hand have both. Seriously, do the side by side, hell, I'd keep up with it, fucking love side by sides. 
Hell, I might do a side by side, about to start my first hydro grow, I'll try one side RO and one side tap. But that will only give proof for SA, TX (though our water is fucking cloudy and takes a bit to clear up, so I figure its as good a place to test as any  )


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

RavenMochi said:


> Not really, think of it this way. People come here knowing this info is according to him. Its their responsibility to do homework on the advice they get. If he was going thread to thread, that would be a different matter, but as far as I can tell, he only answers questions here.
> Not to mention that would require a MASSIVE operational grow to test all waters in every municipality. He's proven it in his area solidly. Being in Australia, I can't even think of what he would have to do to get LA tap water, especially enough for a full grow. You on the other hand have both. Seriously, do the side by side, hell, I'd keep up with it, fucking love side by sides.
> Hell, I might do a side by side, about to start my first hydro grow, I'll try one side RO and one side tap. But that will only give proof for SA, TX (though our water is fucking cloudy and takes a bit to clear up, so I figure its as good a place to test as any  )


I like you, Raven. So I'll do as I'm told if you're the one telling me. Peace.

And yeah, I'll do that side by side. Not as a big "I told you so" to this thread starter, because I'd be happy to prove him right as well.


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## cannawizard (Nov 1, 2011)

RL420 said:


> the process of RO is hella wasteful


*Why? cause the system your using isnt 1:1  

..cheers


----------



## RavenMochi (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> I like you, Raven. So I'll do as I'm told if you're the one telling me. Peace.
> 
> And yeah, I'll do that side by side. Not as a big "I told you so" to this thread starter, because I'd be happy to prove him right as well.


As always, I appreciate it. 
And pm me when you start it, I'll be subbed.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 1, 2011)

...I used RO until the time came to change the filters....then started tap, the only noticable difference wasn't my plants, it was the pH needed adjusted. The pH typically falls right into place with RO water....but I'm with Al, I've grown in several different locations with tap water....still growin, tap isn't a problem in hydro.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

Oh, fuck me dead. Now, not using RO causes seeds not to germinate? *facepalm* *headdesk*


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## RL420 (Nov 1, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *Why? cause the system your using isnt 1:1
> 
> ..cheers


ro removes 95% of minerals right? Thats a waste to me, CHEERS.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Oh, fuck me dead. Now, not using RO causes seeds not to germinate? *facepalm* *headdesk*


Help this guy then.

Show us all how wise and benevolent you are.

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/482573-need-help-asap-everything-keeps.html


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## Shwagbag (Nov 1, 2011)

Al's thread A batch of clones in rockwool is very informative, its definitely helped me dial in my cloning.


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## lordjin (Nov 1, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> Al's thread A batch of clones in rockwool is very informative, its definitely helped me dial in my cloning.


Hey, it's all good. I have no doubt he's helped many... and I'm not being sarcastic in any way when I say that.


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## potpimp (Nov 1, 2011)

I lived in Cali for only 6 months but that was long enough to convince me that the water there is barely drinkable. We even had_ arsenic_ and *uranium* in our muni water!!! No shit, we didn't even have to have night lights, LOL. Why anyone would use super-filtered water for plants is beyond me; it just does not make sense.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 1, 2011)

potpimp said:


> I lived in Cali for only 6 months but that was long enough to convince me that the water there is barely drinkable. We even had_ arsenic_ and *uranium* in our muni water!!! No shit, we didn't even have to have night lights, LOL. Why anyone would use super-filtered water for plants is beyond me; it just does not make sense.


I'm pretty thankful for my well water no doubt!


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 1, 2011)

lordjin said:


> Hey, it's all good. I have no doubt he's helped many... and I'm not being sarcastic in any way when I say that.


 After nearly 800,000 reads of my threads on RIU alone, that's a fair guess.



potpimp said:


> I lived in Cali for only 6 months but that was long enough to convince me that the water there is barely drinkable. We even had_ arsenic_ and *uranium* in our muni water!!! No shit, we didn't even have to have night lights, LOL. Why anyone would use super-filtered water for plants is beyond me; it just does not make sense.


 Arsenic occurs in small quantities naturally in some fruits, notably apples. I'd not be surprised to find traces of all manner of minerals, inclusive of uranium, in tapwater, but the keyword there is 'traces.' The amounts of minerals like arsenic & uranium tolerable in drinking water would be measured in parts per billion- vanishingly small and as such harmless. 



Shwagbag said:


> I'm pretty thankful for my well water no doubt!


As long as you have a water treatment system of the calibre used by most 1st world cities- sure, rock that well water. If not, have it tested periodically by your county extension agent or state university- they may do it for free. This is especially recommended if you have any mining or coal seam gas extraction happening near the aquifer that supplies your bore.


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## william69er (Nov 2, 2011)

Hay al.b
um don't want to nag but like I mentioned in my last post I have spider mite and want to get some preditor mites to get rid of them.last resort would be co2 but that's a while off yet.I thort I read some were you sprayed neem every two weeks for Powdery mildew before you had the sulfa burner.what would you recomend to get rid of them or at least controlling them? 
Cheers William.


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## JimmyRecard (Nov 2, 2011)

Al I thought you had left? I have never spoken to you before but I live to learn from your wisdom. Nah but really I am amazed that a fine aussie like ya self knows so much  maybe not amazed but proud fo sure.


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## Tran Dinh (Nov 2, 2011)

i didnt know Al was visiting Hi Al! respect.
Ill catch up on some reading.
I got a question Al, hows the sweet tooth treating you? Theres been quiet a resurgence of sweet tooth and #4 was recentley rre-eleased, albeit by a community member saving old SOL stock. Do you find it anti anxiety herb Al, and hows the flavour?
cheers mate.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 2, 2011)

william69er said:


> Hay al.b
> um don't want to nag but like I mentioned in my last post I have spider mite and want to get some preditor mites to get rid of them.last resort would be co2 but that's a while off yet.I thort I read some were you sprayed neem every two weeks for Powdery mildew before you had the sulfa burner.what would you recomend to get rid of them or at least controlling them?
> Cheers William.


...google, "Azamax"
...and get some lady bugs, if possible....they sell them frozen at my hydro shop spot.


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## dankhoe417 (Nov 2, 2011)

Al...many humble and sincere thanks and praises! About to finish a "modified-to-my-space" Fuct perpetual grow. Had a bit of a challenge w acquiring Sweet Tooth but am starting it with Killing Fields to get things running smooth. Quick question...have you heard of the SuretoGrow Arroyo Plugs? They fit into the 3.25 inch net pots and supposedly can be used to root clones and pop straight into pots. They are made from PETE plastic. I have some HAIL from them and am trying it out on some moms at the moment. Just wondering how the texture and water retention holds up to Fytocell.


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## Shwagbag (Nov 2, 2011)

dankhoe417 said:


> Al...many humble and sincere thanks and praises! About to finish a "modified-to-my-space" Fuct perpetual grow. Had a bit of a challenge w acquiring Sweet Tooth but am starting it with Killing Fields to get things running smooth. Quick question...have you heard of the SuretoGrow Arroyo Plugs? They fit into the 3.25 inch net pots and supposedly can be used to root clones and pop straight into pots. They are made from PETE plastic. I have some HAIL from them and am trying it out on some moms at the moment. Just wondering how the texture and water retention holds up to Fytocell.


Hey dankhoe, if you're looking for an 8 week finishing strain KF is probably not the strain you're looking for. Mine went for 11-12 weeks before they were ready. Has anyone here ever tried Top 44? This is a fast finishing strain I have in my perpetual 600 soil box and I think the quality is very good. A nice yielder too considering how fast it finishes.


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## dankhoe417 (Nov 2, 2011)

My perp grow setup is in 8 moveable/quick-connect NFT tubes, which I was going to pilot the Killing Fields cause they were freebie and popping. Sucks to know they took that long. The read on them I thought was 8-9. Oh well, still waiting on my SOL Sweet Tooth from DR. C. Also have Blockhead on the way. Any more info on Top44?


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## Highhopes99 (Nov 2, 2011)

william69er said:


> Hay al.b
> um don't want to nag but like I mentioned in my last post I have spider mite and want to get some preditor mites to get rid of them.last resort would be co2 but that's a while off yet.I thort I read some were you sprayed neem every two weeks for Powdery mildew before you had the sulfa burner.what would you recomend to get rid of them or at least controlling them?
> 
> AL b fuct
> Cheers William.


One word: abamectrin (sometimes spelled avamectrin). There is no substitute. Kills spider mites every single time. However, if you ever get a spider mite infestation, the grow op has to be cleaned out totally and vacuumed THOROUGHLY or they'll be back. They're clever little bastards and will hide in the tiniest nooks and crannies. Plants that are heavily infested with spider mite should be put in plastic rubbish bags and disposed of. The plants won't yield well and are not worth saving. If you see just a few (under 50) on one leaf in your op, you MAY be able to save the grow. MAY. AL b fuct


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## Highhopes99 (Nov 2, 2011)

Called the manufacturer of my tds pen meter (nutradip) and asked what conversion scale it was on. He said 700 (or 442) scale but also told me doesn't matter because meters using 500 (or NaCi)scale would read exact same ppm in my res. He says that they have different calibration solution for for different scales of conversion but once calibrated correctly, should have the same readings. He said that the Target brand 1000pm calibration that I was using should be set at 1400 not 1000. This info is conflicting with what I thought tds meters read. 

I guess my question is simply put..when I take somones advice on a ppm level should I be asking what conversion factor there using? Thanks Al you rock


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## MediMary (Nov 2, 2011)

My starting ec from the local municipality comes out at. 6. -.7 I compared my last three grows where half the plants received ro and the other half straight tap. The plants grown with ro tested higher in final cannibinoid levels. I think this was due to the high starting EC from the tap effecting nutrient uptake.


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## don2009 (Nov 2, 2011)

Yeah I got Killing fields (smoking it right now, good stuff) but its def not good for SOG 10-11 week strain Im keeping her but I def need that top44 or that PPP anyone can show some other good potent lollipoop strain thats goes 8 weeks. Thanks guys


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## Tran Dinh (Nov 3, 2011)

Chimera grapefruit x blueberry is basically what Al grows, same mother (clone only sweet pink grapefruit) and BB daddy is different but still from DJ Short, and not backcrossed 4 times. Grows huge single colas in 8 weeks with a nice little stretch.


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## Goldowitz (Nov 3, 2011)

Hey Al,

Big fan here. I have been getting a harvest every week for years now, based on your grow model. 

I have had this problem for a long time now (not with your model, but my hydroponics in general) where I change the water in any one of my reservoirs, add the correct amount of nutrients, set the Ph and the very next day the Ph is up 2.0-2.5 higher. Example, I set it at 5.5 and it is 7.5 the next day. I tested leaving the Ph ridiculously low (4.5) and it is 6.5 the next day.

All three of my reservoirs do it and it doesn't matter if I am doing a bi-monthly drain and fill of the water, or a complete drain, clean, sterilize and rinse that I do once a month. It only does it for the first two or three days after changing the water and then everything is fine until the next water change. I also have to set my PPM on the low side, so it doesn't become too high when I have to add Ph down a few days in a row.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 3, 2011)

....havest time for the PPP!
...wet= 1704
...estimated dry = (1704 x .25) = 426
...average per plant = (426/20)= 21.3 each
...almost got my elbow!


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## Shwagbag (Nov 3, 2011)

Those are lovely TF thanks for sharing my fav!


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## trichome fiend (Nov 3, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> Those are lovely TF thanks for sharing my fav!


...no problem!  ... I still have the smell of kellogs fruity pebbles stuck in my olfactory receptors....with a little rot mixed in there.....


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## Highhopes99 (Nov 3, 2011)

Nicely done TF. Thanks for keeping us posted. Did you veg at all? What is the highest ppm you run in flower? Thx


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## trichome fiend (Nov 3, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> Nicely done TF. Thanks for keeping us posted. Did you veg at all? What is the highest ppm you run in flower? Thx


...thankx, thankx, and thankx! I let my clones run 3 weeks in an aeroponic cloner, then straight into flowerin', so I suppose one could argue that the cuttings do get a lil veg....around wk#2 I bump it up as high as 1.6 EC.


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## don2009 (Nov 3, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...thankx, thankx, and thankx! I let my clones run 3 weeks in an aeroponic cloner, then straight into flowerin', so I suppose one could argue that the cuttings do get a lil veg....around wk#2 I bump it up as high as 1.6 EC.


good job bro! With a 1000 watt you probly would got that elbow.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 4, 2011)

don2009 said:


> good job bro! With a 1000 watt you probly would got that elbow.


...thankx. I actually get my elbow most of the time.


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## Highhopes99 (Nov 4, 2011)

What's an elbow lb ?


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## trichome fiend (Nov 4, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> What's an elbow lb ?


...elbow = pound, yeap.


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## Highhopes99 (Nov 4, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...elbow = pound, yeap.


. Any way you go in to detal about the medium u use under the plastic for support. Thx


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## trichome fiend (Nov 4, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> . Any way you go in to detal about the medium u use under the plastic for support. Thx


...post #600 here---> https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/399206-its-fuct-world-60.html


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## Highhopes99 (Nov 4, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...thankx! ...and again for the concern. My technique atm, the ladies go from the ezcloner into 3" netted pots filled with growrocks only, which is put into the fence post filled with growrocks....flood and drain.
> ...I cover the tables/medium with panda poly because I _was_ having fungi growth on the uppermost layer of the rocks ....I have holes/slits in the poly where the medium is located....they seem to like it, and the poly seemed to help lower RH levels a bit....I'll keep your words in my mind for a future experiment....really glad to have you on the boards


THX for the info but I am still a little confused about the fence posts you speak of is this just the dug out for the net pots. do you have a layer of rocks all across the bottom? 2 and a half lbs on that grow! awsome almost 1 g per watt


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## trichome fiend (Nov 4, 2011)

Highhopes99 said:


> THX for the info but I am still a little confused about the fence posts you speak of is this just the dug out for the net pots. do you have a layer of rocks all across the bottom? 2 and a half lbs on that grow! awsome almost 1 g per watt


...yeap, the fence post is filled and backfilled as each 3 inch netted pot is placed into positon. If your not accustomed with a flood and drain, it can be a bit tricky calculating your irrigation frequency...I just watch my plants....if they ever start to wilt between floods, I add a flood with my handy digital timer. 

... I've been questioned about the ability of the 3 inch netted pots, if they can support my plants....and, absolutely! They do a wonderful job! They have a 1/4" lip and the body of the pot fits really snug against the 3" holes I drill into the post...here's the exact pot I use.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 5, 2011)

william69er said:


> Hay al.b
> um don't want to nag but like I mentioned in my last post I have spider mite and want to get some preditor mites to get rid of them.last resort would be co2 but that's a while off yet.I thort I read some were you sprayed neem every two weeks for Powdery mildew before you had the sulfa burner.what would you recomend to get rid of them or at least controlling them?
> Cheers William.


 Nope, I've never used neem anything. For spider mite, I use an abamectrin (also known as 'avamectrin' in some locales) based miticide. 



JimmyRecard said:


> Al I thought you had left? I have never spoken to you before but I live to learn from your wisdom. Nah but really I am amazed that a fine aussie like ya self knows so much  maybe not amazed but proud fo sure.


 Thanks. I drop in from time to time as my schedule permits. 



Tran Dinh said:


> i didnt know Al was visiting Hi Al! respect.
> Ill catch up on some reading.
> I got a question Al, hows the sweet tooth treating you? Theres been quiet a resurgence of sweet tooth and #4 was recentley rre-eleased, albeit by a community member saving old SOL stock. Do you find it anti anxiety herb Al, and hows the flavour?
> cheers mate.


 Still using Sweet Tooth No. 4. Sprouted the beans for the plants I'm growing right now in 2002. Let it never be said that you cannot take clones of clones & get consistent performance for many years. 



dankhoe417 said:


> Al...many humble and sincere thanks and praises! About to finish a "modified-to-my-space" Fuct perpetual grow. Had a bit of a challenge w acquiring Sweet Tooth but am starting it with Killing Fields to get things running smooth.


 kewl. 



> Quick question...have you heard of the SuretoGrow Arroyo Plugs? They fit into the 3.25 inch net pots and supposedly can be used to root clones and pop straight into pots. They are made from PETE plastic. I have some HAIL from them and am trying it out on some moms at the moment. Just wondering how the texture and water retention holds up to Fytocell.


 Nope, haven't seen those. Will be interested to hear how you go with them. 



Highhopes99 said:


> One word: abamectrin (sometimes spelled avamectrin). There is no substitute. Kills spider mites every single time. However, if you ever get a spider mite infestation, the grow op has to be cleaned out totally and vacuumed THOROUGHLY or they'll be back. They're clever little bastards and will hide in the tiniest nooks and crannies. Plants that are heavily infested with spider mite should be put in plastic rubbish bags and disposed of. The plants won't yield well and are not worth saving. If you see just a few (under 50) on one leaf in your op, you MAY be able to save the grow. MAY. AL b fuct


 Sounds familiar- are you quoting me? 



Highhopes99 said:


> Called the manufacturer of my tds pen meter (nutradip) and asked what conversion scale it was on. He said 700 (or 442) scale but also told me doesn't matter because meters using 500 (or NaCi)scale would read exact same ppm in my res. He says that they have different calibration solution for for different scales of conversion but once calibrated correctly, should have the same readings. He said that the Target brand 1000pm calibration that I was using should be set at 1400 not 1000. This info is conflicting with what I thought tds meters read.
> 
> I guess my question is simply put..when I take somones advice on a ppm level should I be asking what conversion factor there using? Thanks Al you rock


 Beats me. I use a Bluelab Truncheon TDS meter and run everything at indicated 1000ppm. 



MediMary said:


> My starting ec from the local municipality comes out at. 6. -.7 I compared my last three grows where half the plants received ro and the other half straight tap. The plants grown with ro tested higher in final cannibinoid levels. I think this was due to the high starting EC from the tap effecting nutrient uptake.


 How do you go about testing for cannabinoid levels? Have you got a mass spectrometer handy?



Goldowitz said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> Big fan here. I have been getting a harvest every week for years now, based on your grow model.
> 
> I have had this problem for a long time now (not with your model, but my hydroponics in general) where I change the water in any one of my reservoirs, add the correct amount of nutrients, set the Ph and the very next day the Ph is up 2.0-2.5 higher. Example, I set it at 5.5 and it is 7.5 the next day. I tested leaving the Ph ridiculously low (4.5) and it is 6.5 the next day.


A rapidly rising pH is often indicative of root pathogens such as pythium or fusarium. They'll kill a rootmass fairly quickly. Are you dosing your tanks with H2O2?



> All three of my reservoirs do it and it doesn't matter if I am doing a bi-monthly drain and fill of the water, or a complete drain, clean, sterilize and rinse that I do once a month. It only does it for the first two or three days after changing the water and then everything is fine until the next water change. I also have to set my PPM on the low side, so it doesn't become too high when I have to add Ph down a few days in a row.


Something's amiss. Your pH should not be jumping up like that. Betting root disease.


----------



## MediMary (Nov 5, 2011)

The samples were tested at the university of new Mexico. new Mexico is medical marijuana state,all producers are require by the state to have harvests tested for contamination and most will test for the three main cannabidnoids as well. I think extremely highly of you and am a big fan of your commentaries but honestly think you are giving bad advice concerning municipal water especialy living in AU. I can't make a gross generalization about the water quality in Au as I don't live there. The starting EC of municipal city varies greatly from town to town.and starting EC of1.0 is not uncommon in large cities. Again I have no idea the starting EC in larger towns in AU, so I have no idea if that is problem you have ran into. Ou


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## trichome fiend (Nov 5, 2011)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Still using Sweet Tooth No. 4. Sprouted the beans for the plants I'm growing right now in 2002. Let it never be said that you cannot take clones of clones & get consistent performance for many years.


...really glad you touched this subject. I ran Big Bud for a couple years, had consistent performance the whole while, until I was cursed with powdery mildew, which nearly wipped out my whole garden. Long story short, the Big Bud recovered after the battle. Once I got cuttings from her and the flowering was done....the finished product did not taste nothing of the normal, but I kept growing her, only to get the same nasty taste harvest after harvest... everything seemed normal during the grows and the bud was still potent.
After doing some lazy research, I was convinced (at the time) that the strain has grown past its maturity or the PM took a toll. I kind'a feel as though I came to that conclusion too soon, and should've (maybe) consulted someone with experience in that area....I since have killed off the stain, and its left me with a guilty conscience....like I left my best friend to die in battle.  ....I've ordered more seeds since, but still haven't found a pheno of her that performs the same as my origional.  
...do you think the pm was responsible even though the mother had recovered?....or can a plant fully recover from a PM attack? 

...Glad to know that the "past maturity" hype, is just that, hype.


----------



## Highhopes99 (Nov 6, 2011)

Awesome info and ideas


----------



## Shwagbag (Nov 7, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...really glad you touched this subject. I ran Big Bud for a couple years, had consistent performance the whole while, until I was cursed with powdery mildew, which nearly wipped out my whole garden. Long story short, the Big Bud recovered after the battle. Once I got cuttings from her and the flowering was done....the finished product did not taste nothing of the normal, but I kept growing her, only to get the same nasty taste harvest after harvest... everything seemed normal during the grows and the bud was still potent.
> After doing some lazy research, I was convinced (at the time) that the strain has grown past its maturity or the PM took a toll. I kind'a feel as though I came to that conclusion too soon, and should've (maybe) consulted someone with experience in that area....I since have killed off the stain, and its left me with a guilty conscience....like I left my best friend to die in battle.  ....I've ordered more seeds since, but still haven't found a pheno of her that performs the same as my origional.
> ...do you think the pm was responsible even though the mother had recovered?....or can a plant fully recover from a PM attack?
> 
> ...Glad to know that the "past maturity" hype, is just that, hype.


I have been running Chrystal, PPP and Ice for a couple years now, notice no differnce in potency. The Chrystal has changed a bit in that it veges differently than it did initially. Around the 5th or 6th gen it started vegging with different looking leaves (3 leaf sets), like it was changing from flower back to veg. Since then its also started stacking calyxes throughout the entire veg process like its just dying to be flowered like a mofo. It has proven to be effin' awesome since then and just packs on some awesome buds FAST right from the change in the photoperiod. Although this is the only strain I've noticed a change in, it has proven to be a positive.


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## Sencha (Nov 7, 2011)

I have an 8x4' grow tent with 2 600 watt HPS, I want to start a perpetual grow and build a flood and drain table in half of the tent (so 4x4). I have a separate box for clones and another cab for mothers.

-how many plants under one 600 watt light?
-I want to harvest every two weeks, can I do that with one table? I guess I could use two ~2x4 tables and two rezes.
-rez and pump size?


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## trichome fiend (Nov 7, 2011)

Sencha said:


> I have an 8x4' grow tent with 2 600 watt HPS, I want to start a perpetual grow and build a flood and drain table in half of the tent (so 4x4). I have a separate box for clones and another cab for mothers.
> 
> -how many plants under one 600 watt light?
> -I want to harvest every two weeks, can I do that with one table? I guess I could use two ~2x4 tables and two rezes.
> -rez and pump size?


 
...I've done 16-40 under one single 600 HPS....20 seems to be my preferred #
...I use 180- 360 gph pumps
...I wouldn't have plants in different stages on the same table because your ladies will need the EC/PPM adjusted according to their age. You can't flush only 1/2 of the table.....unless, unless....well, you'd have to get damn creative and it would be a pain in the arse....what size are your tables?...can you find 4 smaller tables that will fit under your 2 - 600's?


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## don2009 (Nov 7, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I've done 16-40 under one single 600 HPS....20 seems to be my preferred #
> ...I use 180- 360 gph pumps
> ...I wouldn't have plants in different stages on the same table because your ladies will need the EC/PPM adjusted according to their age. You can't flush only 1/2 of the table.....unless, unless....well, you'd have to get damn creative and it would be a pain in the arse.


Dame TF you can fit more than 20 clones under 1 600watt? You must have a good reflector I had trouble with 10-15 clones for the light to cover them I didnt have a good reflector either.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 7, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Dame TF you can fit more than 20 clones under 1 600watt? You must have a good reflector I had trouble with 10-15 clones for the light to cover them I didnt have a good reflector either.


...it's all about how long you veg them....and a good lollipop!


----------



## Sencha (Nov 7, 2011)

I still need to build the tables and find suitable trays. I'll build two tables 1.5'x3' I'll start with 8 per table in 6" pots.

I don't want to use the whole tent for this yet. I still like growing bigger plants in soil, so...

-20 gal. rezes?
-think I can find trays that fit or use some kind of liner?


----------



## trichome fiend (Nov 7, 2011)

Sencha said:


> I still need to build the tables and find suitable trays. I'll build two tables 1.5'x3' I'll start with 8 per table in 6" pots.
> 
> I don't want to use the whole tent for this yet. I still like growing bigger plants in soil, so...
> 
> ...


...I've had a look at lowes and home depot online, and I think you can find totes that will be doable.


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## Sencha (Nov 8, 2011)

Is there a list of parts somewhere? I'm not finding a lot of great info on this system.

I have a few Sterlite containers that I'm going to use for trays, and rezes should not be hard to find. It's the other parts and details that I lack. Pump, fittings, tubing, how tall the drain needs to be etc, etc.


----------



## trichome fiend (Nov 8, 2011)

Sencha said:


> Is there a list of parts somewhere? I'm not finding a lot of great info on this system.
> 
> I have a few Sterlite containers that I'm going to use for trays, and rezes should not be hard to find. It's the other parts and details that I lack. Pump, fittings, tubing, how tall the drain needs to be etc, etc.


...it sounds as though your interested in a flood and drain, or ebb and flow set up.

...here, I'll link you to some good info --> http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/eftips.htm


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## Sencha (Nov 8, 2011)

Great find, thanks a bunch. 

I bought the trays and rezes today. Pump and rockwool shopping tomorrow.


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## phxfire (Nov 8, 2011)

@FUCT
Hey BRO
Been following you some time.. Love your shit...I have been using your technique in SOG... Trying to find the right strain for max gram per sqft... I am getting about 3/4 oz a plant on strain I am using now... Any strains you recommend? Prefer Indica..

Thanks Man


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## tree king (Nov 9, 2011)

phxfire said:


> @FUCT
> Hey BRO
> Been following you some time.. Love your shit...I have been using your technique in SOG... Trying to find the right strain for max gram per sqft... I am getting about 3/4 oz a plant on strain I am using now... Any strains you recommend? Prefer Indica..
> 
> Thanks Man


im curious what strain are you growing now phxfire?


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## trichome fiend (Nov 9, 2011)

tree king said:


> im curious what strain are you growing now phxfire?


....I'm wondering too...and how many ladies did you have under how many watts? ...3/4 per sounds sweeeeeeeeet!


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## phxfire (Nov 9, 2011)

tree king said:


> im curious what strain are you growing now phxfire?


 Purple Urkle... 4 weeks in rock wool cube under CFL... Then in pure coco coir 6" pots...
Then Straight to flower... 
The extra time in rock wool allows a large root mass to develop and air prunes any roots that try to stray... 

Also running
Blue Dreams
LSD
Master Bubba
Bubba Kush

2 pollenated with cherry kush male
Blue Dreams
Purple Urkle
Hoping to collect some nice seeds........


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## phxfire (Nov 9, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....I'm wondering too...and how many ladies did you have under how many watts? ...3/4 per sounds sweeeeeeeeet!


 I have various plants going but the SOG style ones that have 3/4 oz are Purple Urkle..

I am running 2 - 600watt HPS over 2 3x3 trays.. One light is on light mover that moves about 6 inches both ways from center.... Reason had 3rd tray beside the 2nd tray and got rid of it and have not had a chance to remove light mover....


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## phxfire (Nov 10, 2011)

Hey AL

What is the best strain to run in SOG? No bigger plants than 1-2 feet... I am running Purple Urkle right now..


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## tree king (Nov 11, 2011)

my fault phxfire, i thought you were doing no veg time


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## Long Dogg (Nov 11, 2011)

Mr. Fuct

I have a fungus gnat problem, they are killing my clones, they are killing my seedlings.

I am using a hydrogen peroxide at 29% diluted at the manufacturer's recommended rate of 3 mL per gallon to kill the larvae. What is the strongest concentration ( mL/gallon) I may use that will not hurt the plant.


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## phxfire (Nov 11, 2011)

tree king said:


> my fault phxfire, i thought you were doing no veg time


 If you consider being under dome with clone for 1 month a veg time then ok... But I would say it is about 10 days veg time in the dome... The roots are about the only thing that grows.. a little leaf growth but mostly root growth


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## don2009 (Nov 11, 2011)

Warning Warning!!!!!!!!!! Hey guys be careful lifting heavy things I just got a hernia lifting a 5 gallon jug the wrong way I just had surgery and its a bitch please becareful lifting heavy things use your legs to lift no joke I got my girl helping me and its alright but no one can do it the way you need it done. FYI


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## dankhoe417 (Nov 11, 2011)

I have to get the shuttlecock for mine, but I am fending it off as long as I can. Changed my MO from 5 gallon buckets to smaller, higher quantity plants. Amazing how something like that can hinder so much.


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## *BUDS (Nov 12, 2011)

don2009 said:


> Warning Warning!!!!!!!!!! Hey guys be careful lifting heavy things I
> 
> 
> > just got a hernia lifting a 5 gallon jug
> ...


You be more carefull next time old fella.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 12, 2011)

I'm running World of Seeds (Medical Collection)
"Northern Lights x Big Bud" this round....


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## don2009 (Nov 12, 2011)

*BUDS said:


> You be more carefull next time old fella.


Dang im only 30yrs old! Looking good TF cant wait to see how they grow keep us updated.


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## phxfire (Nov 14, 2011)

Where do you FIND 50% Peroxide???

I can only find 3-5%


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## Shwagbag (Nov 15, 2011)

phxfire said:


> Where do you FIND 50% Peroxide???
> 
> I can only find 3-5%


If you are in the states check the health food stores. I can only get 35% at the local place but its better than OTC boo-boo stuff.


----------



## phxfire (Nov 15, 2011)

Shwagbag said:


> If you are in the states check the health food stores. I can only get 35% at the local place but its better than OTC boo-boo stuff.


Thanks... Nice ass


----------



## Swiezy (Nov 17, 2011)

Have you guys got any tips how to conduct OP like this with super dense buds strains like Critical+ or Criticall Mass which can be subject to mold? How do you prevent mold?

Thanks in advance

Peace,


----------



## trichome fiend (Nov 17, 2011)

Swiezy said:


> Have you guys got any tips how to conduct OP like this with super dense buds strains like Critical+ or Criticall Mass which can be subject to mold? How do you prevent mold?
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Peace,


 
.... get that light close to the plants, and grow hydro....that's how I get denseness.

.... low humidity (dehumidifier) and plenty of fresh air exchange will prevent mold/mildew....I shoot for 40% humidity in my flowering room.


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## phxfire (Nov 17, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> .... get that light close to the plants, and grow hydro....that's how I get denseness.
> 
> .... low humidity (dehumidifier) and plenty of fresh air exchange will prevent mold/mildew....I shoot for 40% humidity in my flowering room.


How close do you go?

I use a 600 and I go as close as 4 inches and NO burn... Air cooled reflectors help


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## trichome fiend (Nov 18, 2011)

phxfire said:


> How close do you go?
> 
> I use a 600 and I go as close as 4 inches and NO burn... Air cooled reflectors help


...I wish I could get that low....I aircool and I get as close as 8-10 inches maybe, and I still get a little light burn on atleast one bud each crop.....4 inches would be awesome!!! You must have some kick ass inline fans, eh?


----------



## phxfire (Nov 18, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I wish I could get that low....I aircool and I get as close as 8-10 inches maybe, and I still get a little light burn on atleast one bud each crop.....4 inches would be awesome!!! You must have some kick ass inline fans, eh?


8" High Output can fan with 6" reducers.... with all 6" lines and reflectors... 800CFM carbon filter...


----------



## trichome fiend (Nov 20, 2011)

...NLxBB, 10 days into it!


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## tree king (Dec 12, 2011)

al quick question for you. if your doing sea of green with no veg time using 4" squared rockwool cubes only do you think theres ever a time where you have to flood them more than once a day even late in flower? they hold alot of water so im curious about this


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## trichome fiend (Dec 13, 2011)

...someone, sometime ago ask to see the root system in my setup "using the panda poly cover"...this ones for you kid!


----------



## trichome fiend (Dec 13, 2011)

...also, the NLxBB 33 days into it for those interested.


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## tenthirty (Dec 13, 2011)

That looks like a lot of work to clean up. Very nice plants though!!


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## Highhopes99 (Dec 13, 2011)

Thanks tf, that was me who asked. Looks like a pretty big root system thx


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## Rick Ratlin (Dec 14, 2011)

Hey Al, here's my cool tube set up, works great! Thanks so much for your wisdom


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## Rick Ratlin (Dec 14, 2011)

Couple of Q's TC, I've followed your grows, is that just the perfect single cola strain? How do you get just a top to bottom single cola with no branching? The strains I run don't grow at all like that. I started my latest batch with the panda film over the tray as I have excessive humidity issues, no problems 1 week in. how's your cover working out?


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## trichome fiend (Dec 14, 2011)

Rick Ratlin said:


> Couple of Q's TC, I've followed your grows, is that just the perfect single cola strain? How do you get just a top to bottom single cola with no branching? The strains I run don't grow at all like that. I started my latest batch with the panda film over the tray as I have excessive humidity issues, no problems 1 week in. how's your cover working out?


...I assume you were directing your question towards myself.
...it isn't _just_ a characteristic of the strain, but also the technique used to grow the strain that makes single colas....how long do you veg your ladies? Al's growing technique here is called a SoG.....we trip our clones into flower with very little veg life, resulting is smaller plants. A lollipop (pruning of the lower branches) occurs during early flowering to redirect all growth to the cola....hth....and get your light as close as possible (I aircool).
...what strain are you growing? I personally like to grow Indica dominate strains.
...the panda cover has been one of my greatest improvments ever to the op!


----------



## trichome fiend (Dec 14, 2011)

tenthirty said:


> That looks like a lot of work to clean up. Very nice plants though!!


....it's soooOOOOOOooooooo worth it though!


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## Destillat (Dec 14, 2011)

Trichrome, I notice you have some nitrogen toxicity in your latest pics and I'm curious to know a solution as I have had the same problems. I use botanicare cns 2 part nutrient formula. The directions recommend a 50-50 mix of veg and flower nutes during the transition. I recirculate my reservoir for 2 weeks. It takes roughly a week to show sex.

The first time I filled my reservoir to 1100 ppm using 500 ml grow and 500 ml bloom. This literally wiped out 4 of my weakest plants, and I got massive clawing on the rest. Next rotation, I went with 300 ml grow and 700 ml bloom. This time went a LOT better but I still have toxicity symptoms, mainly the claw.

My question is, what should I do? I have to have grow nutes in my res for 2 weeks. Should I lower the amounts to 200 - 800, or possibly put grow nutes in for only the second week of the first two weeks of flowering?


----------



## trichome fiend (Dec 15, 2011)

Destillat said:


> Trichrome, I notice you have some nitrogen toxicity in your latest pics and I'm curious to know a solution as I have had the same problems. I use botanicare cns 2 part nutrient formula. The directions recommend a 50-50 mix of veg and flower nutes during the transition. I recirculate my reservoir for 2 weeks. It takes roughly a week to show sex.
> 
> The first time I filled my reservoir to 1100 ppm using 500 ml grow and 500 ml bloom. This literally wiped out 4 of my weakest plants, and I got massive clawing on the rest. Next rotation, I went with 300 ml grow and 700 ml bloom. This time went a LOT better but I still have toxicity symptoms, mainly the claw.
> 
> My question is, what should I do? I have to have grow nutes in my res for 2 weeks. Should I lower the amounts to 200 - 800, or possibly put grow nutes in for only the second week of the first two weeks of flowering?


...the only thing wrong with my plants are, they have a little light burn....no toxicities here...I run a low solution, if you had said nitrogen 'deficiency,'...I wouldn't have denied that...my ladies usually look like they are about to die, when they are_ indeed _about to die....I'll take my next shot with the light off.

...if your having plant issues I'd first make sure your meters are calibrated and accurate, then flush and start a new res....I've never used those fertz you speak of so I wouldn't be any help there...I use GH's, Flora series now days and I've never found any magic concoctions that are of any better performance....I've come to the conclusion that most 3 part fertz works out pretty much the same, the N/P/K are only slightly different between name brands...all the extra bottles of shit I've bought outside of the 3 parts became what-nots.


----------



## Lemon from yemen (Dec 15, 2011)

Where are you Alan? Where are you old son ?, help us please, probably gone sailing on his yacht.


----------



## Rick Ratlin (Dec 15, 2011)

Thanks TF, I've followed al for a while and do all those practices with Blue Bonic, a indica dominant strain, and specifically, it looks like your NL*BB are all cola from top to bottom. Did you do any trimming at all for that batch, or do they just grow with no side branching. I air-cool also, about 12 inches from the canopy, and trim the bottom third. They veg no longer than a few days to establish roots, clones are cut about 6 inches, not 9, but with thick stems. Where can I pick up that strain?


----------



## trichome fiend (Dec 16, 2011)

Rick Ratlin said:


> Thanks TF, I've followed al for a while and do all those practices with Blue Bonic, a indica dominant strain, and specifically, it looks like your NL*BB are all cola from top to bottom. Did you do any trimming at all for that batch, or do they just grow with no side branching. I air-cool also, about 12 inches from the canopy, and trim the bottom third. They veg no longer than a few days to establish roots, clones are cut about 6 inches, not 9, but with thick stems.  Where can I pick up that strain?


...the attitude, breeder is World of Seeds, Northern Lights x Big Bud. I didn't lollipop at all with the NLxBB, but the clones were a little small this time. Good luck bro.


----------



## Destillat (Dec 16, 2011)

Thanks for the response trichome. I thought the clawing of the leaves was a sign of over fertilization. Cuz your plants looked just like a couple of mine.


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## trichome fiend (Dec 16, 2011)

Destillat said:


> Thanks for the response trichome. I thought the clawing of the leaves was a sign of over fertilization. Cuz your plants looked just like a couple of mine.


....what's your pH like?


----------



## phxfire (Dec 16, 2011)

@Trichome

What are some good strains to run this method on??

Had great success with Purple Urkle


----------



## Shwagbag (Dec 16, 2011)

phxfire said:


> @Trichome
> 
> What are some good strains to run this method on??
> 
> Had great success with Purple Urkle


I will go ahead and answer for him and say Pure Power Plant


----------



## trichome fiend (Dec 16, 2011)

phxfire said:


> @Trichome
> 
> What are some good strains to run this method on??
> 
> Had great success with Purple Urkle


... you can run any strain you'd like in a sog...but I like to stay away from the long flowering strains myself, they like to overgrow the table, which means a 'heavy' lollipop. I tend to look for 'commercial' strains


----------



## phxfire (Dec 16, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ... you can run any strain you'd like in a sog...but I like to stay away from the long flowering strains myself, they like to overgrow the table, which means a 'heavy' lollipop. I tend to look for 'commercial' strains


Better question..

What strains have you been more successful with than others?


----------



## trichome fiend (Dec 17, 2011)

phxfire said:


> Better question..
> 
> What strains have you been more successful with than others?



...sensi seeds, Big Bud....World of seeds NLxBB....world of seeds NLxSK....ofcourse the Pure Power Plant....Greenhouse Seeds, Trainwreck (highest yield).....Dinafem's, Critical +....Barney's farm, Blue cheese....Reserva Privada, Kandy kush.....just to name a few of the good ones.


----------



## Destillat (Dec 17, 2011)

My ph ranges from 5.8 to 6.1, I check it every 2-3 days and that's how much it fluctuates. Usually I'll top off with 3 gallons of tap water and it takes 15ml of ph down to get back to 5.8. Again this is about a 40-42 gallon res.


----------



## bigpimp (Dec 23, 2011)

skunkd0c said:


> do you still think squeezing rockwool damages plants, ?
> do you still think 1 inch cubes are not for cuttings. ?
> sorry to correct you AL B . in time your ego will learn to live with it lol
> 
> oh sorry ill type it so you can understand it, j00 455#47 lol


This is from the company's website regarding squeezing rockwool. http://grodan101.com/growing-tips/soakwater I have been reading this thread from the beginning and wanted to clarify this. Whenever in doubt just simply check with the manufacturer. 

[h=1]Soak/Water[/h] 
< Prev










 Adjust the pH of water to 5.5. (NO LOWER). Use pH Down or lemon. Check with pH paper or meter.

















 If soaking A-Ok plugs, Macroplugs, or Miniblocks, mix in a little bit of plant food. Then just dip the starter in this pH 5.5 mix and its ready for the seed or cutting. 

















 For all other Grodan products- SOAK, FLUSH, then PLANT! 
Soak in plain water (pH 5.5) for 1/2 an hour (longer if soaking granulate).

















 Flush through with pH 5.5 water mixed with some plant food. Make sure the flushed water goes to waste. Then plant into your prepared Grodan block, slab, Grow-Cubes, or granulate!
*DO NOT SQUEEZE the cubes or blocks.* They are designed for the perfect air/water ratio. When you squeeze the product you may ruin the good structure.


----------



## trichome fiend (Dec 24, 2011)

....NLxBB @ start of flush, looks like I may yield on the lower-end this round, est 12 zips....

...I'll be running Kandy Kush X Skunk #1 next round. 
...Merry X-mas everyone!


----------



## don2009 (Dec 26, 2011)

Nice job, looking good.


----------



## phxfire (Dec 26, 2011)

trichome fiend said:


> ....NLxBB @ start of flush, looks like I may yield on the lower-end this round, est 12 zips....
> 
> ...I'll be running Kandy Kush X Skunk #1 next round.
> ...Merry X-mas everyone!
> ...




You fuckin AMAZE me every time man!!!


----------



## trichome fiend (Jan 10, 2012)

...Kandy Kush x Skunk #1, 3 days after the flip!


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 10, 2012)

And another one down, and another one down......


----------



## trichome fiend (Jan 10, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> And another one down, and another one down......


...you already know.  ...how's it going bro Shwagbag  The NLxBB yielded on the lower end, 13 ounces...really dank though, smells of rot with a spice twist.... and I taste a black pepper taste in there too.
...I gave this KKxSK a trial run and it is near identical to the Kandy Kush but shorter and has a shorter flowering time...I'm excited!!!  ...smells of fruit and cheese/rot.
...I just took clones from OG Kush, Querkle, White Berry, Power Skunk, (ch9 freebies->) Bubba Kush 33, White Shark 33, Jack 33....so, we'll find out which ones will be the new women of the op soon! ...the OG Kush, and Power Sk. has already shown female preflowers that started around week #5-6 of veg...
...more strain reports soon fellas!


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 10, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...you already know.  ...how's it going bro Shwagbag  The NLxBB yielded on the lower end, 13 ounces...really dank though, smells of rot with a spice twist.... and I taste a black pepper taste in there too.
> ...I gave this KKxSK a trial run and it is near identical to the Kandy Kush but shorter and has a shorter flowering time...I'm excited!!!  ...smells of fruit and cheese/rot.
> ...I just took clones from OG Kush, Querkle, White Berry, Power Skunk, (ch9 freebies->) Bubba Kush 33, White Shark 33, Jack 33....so, we'll find out which ones will be the new women of the op soon! ...the OG Kush, and Power Sk. has already shown female preflowers that started around week #5-6 of veg...
> ...more strain reports soon fellas!


Its going man! My 600 tent is doing better than ever... I've been messing with some LEDS in a new tent without much luck though, bout to throw in the towel and get a HID. I can see I'm not the only one that is juggling too many strains lol. Its so hard to let one go! I just let a NL go, put the last one into flower and I already regret not taking some cuts. It flowers soooo nicely with nice dense nugs from top to bottom. Think I might try to reveg it but there's barely any veg on the effer, its all dense bud lol. Always glad to see another round complete. Hopefully Al will check in soon and admire your handy work.


----------



## trichome fiend (Jan 10, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Its going man! My 600 tent is doing better than ever... I've been messing with some LEDS in a new tent without much luck though, bout to throw in the towel and get a HID. I can see I'm not the only one that is juggling too many strains lol. Its so hard to let one go! I just let a NL go, put the last one into flower and I already regret not taking some cuts. It flowers soooo nicely with nice dense nugs from top to bottom. Think I might try to reveg it but there's barely any veg on the effer, its all dense bud lol. Always glad to see another round complete. Hopefully Al will check in soon and admire your handy work.


...yeah that seems to be the conclusion on the LED growing, too expensive and produces little product.... I think Al got pissed about the tap water debate. I believe most people that speak against it probably has never tried to grow with tap....my $.02, cause just as Al, it works fo' me!  

...lol about the strain collection....I've done away with my NLxSK too...
...anymore, the grow strategy is so repetitive, I need new strains to keep my interest/motivation.


----------



## Shwagbag (Jan 10, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...yeah that seems to be the conclusion on the LED growing, too expensive and produces little product.... I think Al got pissed about the tap water debate. I believe most people that speak against it probably has never tried to grow with tap....my $.02, cause just as Al, it works fo' me!
> 
> ...lol about the strain collection....I've done away with my NLxSK too...
> ...anymore, the grow strategy is so repetitive, I need new strains to keep my interest/motivation.


I hear you, its definitely nice to look forward to something new. Right now I have a Deep Purple x Haze, Blue Widow as my newbies. All the others are oldies but goodies. Tried a romulan, got a male, working on herijuana that needs to be sexed, no preflowers. 

Regarding the LED's.... I really think we will see a major shift in plant health and yield in 2012, the tech is getting dialed in its just been missing the mark until recently. The lights I have produce a significantly greater amount of usable light in specific wavelengths compared to HPS, its actually TOO strong if you can believe that, lol. Unbelievable efficiency with the wavelengths, just need to hit the right targets at the right levels which has been a work in progress for a few years. Some manu's have been testing and working to produce better lights, while others just produce garbage to sell over and over again.


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## trichome fiend (Feb 4, 2012)

...the Kandy Kush x Skunk#1 is really dank but it stretches too much, this will be the 1st and last run in my sog 
...this was day #29


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 4, 2012)

Snergle, lest I rend thee in the gobberworts. 

Fuck, I've been busy. 

You?


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## trichome fiend (Feb 4, 2012)

_..."with my blurglecruncheon, see if I don't!" _


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 4, 2012)

Fuckin' Vogons.


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## trichome fiend (Feb 4, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Fuck, I've been busy.
> 
> You?


...busier than a one legged man in an ass kicking contest


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 4, 2012)

Holy whale fuckin' thundercrap, Batman. Noice work. Strain?


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## Shwagbag (Feb 4, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Holy whale fuckin' thundercrap, Batman. Noice work. Strain?


Ahahaha, that is some chunky shit!


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## trichome fiend (Feb 4, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Holy whale fuckin' thundercrap, Batman. Noice work. Strain?


...dankx brotha'! ...that strain is Dinafem's, Critical + ....really, really dense rock hard buds.....awesome smell, awesome smoke.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 4, 2012)

I gotta get a copy of that DNA. Trouble is, getting beans is such a pain in the ass these days. Well done, sir.


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## trichome fiend (Feb 4, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I gotta get a copy of that DNA. Trouble is, getting beans is such a pain in the ass these days. Well done, sir.


...that means alot coming from you, believe it or not. Respect.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 4, 2012)

No worries. Mind, I still think I get far too much credit around here, I'm not that speshy. 

What's a reliable beanery to get Critical+ from?


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## RavenMochi (Feb 4, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ....NLxBB @ start of flush, looks like I may yield on the lower-end this round, est 12 zips....
> 
> ...I'll be running Kandy Kush X Skunk #1 next round.
> ...Merry X-mas everyone!
> ...


I've been getting NLxBB from a grower here on a regular lately, Really like its bud density and taste, been a good toke.


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## trichome fiend (Feb 5, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No worries. Mind, I still think I get far too much credit around here, I'm not that speshy. What's a reliable beanery to get Critical+ from?


...I went through The Attitude --> http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/dinafem-seeds-critical-/prod_49.html...they gave me the strain as a freebie a couple years ago and it turned out to be better than my purchased beans.....I ordered a few beans of her shortly afterwards and was impressed by the consistency of the genetics, they all appeared identical. ...just several month back I slipped up and put my timer on the wrong settings, my fucking lights stayed on for 2 whole days  ....dude, their was not one seed in the Critical+


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## SmokinBs (Feb 5, 2012)

Hey man i was reading yer post and it actually made alot of sence to me. I just had 2 questions, first i was using the store bought h2o2 which i believe is 3%. I know this is not suggested but if i ajusted for the concentration would it be sufficient? Next is im using Advanced Nutrients 3 part system (grow,micro,bloom) and i just picked up bud candy and big bud also. I followed the chart exactly and my PPM's read 1760. Now i was told 1600 was the max for the plants. Should i add water to get the PPM down? The plants are in there 2nd week flowering.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...I went through The Attitude --> http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/dinafem-seeds-critical-/prod_49.html...they gave me the strain as a freebie a couple years ago and it turned out to be better than my purchased beans.....I ordered a few beans of her shortly afterwards and was impressed by the consistency of the genetics, they all appeared identical. ...just several month back I slipped up and put my timer on the wrong settings, my fucking lights stayed on for 2 whole days  ....dude, their was not one seed in the Critical+


Most excellent. I had found Attitude's site & was browsing when you posted. Definitely going to have a go with that pheno, looks like a winner for indoor. Cheers for that. 



RavenMochi said:


> I've been getting NLxBB from a grower here on a regular lately, Really like its bud density and taste, been a good toke.


I've grown both NL & BB in years past- a cross couldn't be anything but good. Thanks for that. 



SmokinBs said:


> Hey man i was reading yer post and it actually made alot of sence to me. I just had 2 questions, first i was using the store bought h2o2 which i believe is 3%. I know this is not suggested but if i ajusted for the concentration would it be sufficient? Next is im using Advanced Nutrients 3 part system (grow,micro,bloom) and i just picked up bud candy and big bud also. I followed the chart exactly and my PPM's read 1760. Now i was told 1600 was the max for the plants. Should i add water to get the PPM down? The plants are in there 2nd week flowering.


3% H2O2 isn't recommended for a couple of reasons- first, the concentration is WAY too weak to be economical to use. To get the same H2O2 concentration with 3% that you get with 1ml/L of 50%, you'd need to use 17ml/L of 3%. Second, low-strength H2O2 requires the addition of stabiliser chemicals to prevent the H2O2 from breaking down into H2O & O2 in storage. The breakdown components of the stabiliser are not good for plants. 

Apparently, 50% H2O2 is hard to come by in North America because 50% grade can be used to make a crude, highly unstable and dangerous explosive called TATP. This is not something I'm going to test, thank you very much..! 35% grade will do. "Food grade" 35% is available from foodservice suppliers as a steriliser for foodservice equipment. Bear in mind that "food grade" does not mean it is suitable to drink, though there are a number of seriously stupid crazies on the internet who suggest people do just that. As such, 35% "food grade" H2O2 can be bought from (disreputable) health food shops who do recommend that you drink the stuff. Not only will it not do what the crazies say it will (which has something to so with 'adding oxygen to the body'), but it's highly dangerous and could very well kill you. _*Never, EVER drink H2O2. *_ Anyway, back on topic.... 35% H2O2 will do OK in hydroponic nutrient solutions when used at about 1.5ml/L of nute soln, applied every 3-4 days. 

As regards your nute strength, I run my flowering system tanks at about 1000-1100ppm. I run my mother plants at about 1400-1500. 1700 is way too hot & will very likely give you a case of nute burn. Remember, plants are not V8 engines- 'more' is not better. There's a bell curve to this- not enough, just right & DEAD. It's much preferable to underfeed than overfeed. Yes, to lower the nute strength, use less nutrient concentrate or add water to the tanks to reduce the concentration.


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## Gyroscope (Feb 5, 2012)

@ Al
Nice to see you back sir.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 5, 2012)

Good to see you, too. 

Can't say how much time I can put in to RIU at the moment, but I can promise you that it won't be much. Busy, busy, busy here.


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## jojodancer10 (Feb 6, 2012)

Hay al great to see you. Just want to say thank-you for all your help. Follwed your plan in a 4x4 tent and I'm happy to day I should be hitting 2 lbs this go round.thinking about adding co2. Lollipop 80 girl's in a 4x4 ebb&flow table. LOL ill make u proud. 20 lavander 20 DJ short 20 affair 20 strawberry. 20 Bubba.


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 6, 2012)

Great news, jojo! 

Keep crankin' it out.


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## Rick Ratlin (Feb 6, 2012)

Welcome back Al! I just got gifted a digital light meter that reads lux from 200 to 200,000. I've got the same cool tube set up as you, only 600 watt sun master bulbs, using a socket extender to center the bulb on the reflector. What average lux should I be shooting for on the canopy? I can lower these down to about 7 inches, but my spread barely reaches the edges of the trays ( 3'x 4' area) here's a pic


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## Shwagbag (Feb 7, 2012)

Hey guys, looking for some input on this little system I just built. I want to try a little hydro in one of my tents to give it a quick try before I jump in with both feet. I plan on using rockwool just like Al. With the setup like it is in the pics the flood falls about 3.5" away from the top of the pots and the water is pushing maximum levels in the "flood table" so I can't flood any higher. In fact I would like to lower it but I'm not sure that is doable. I may have to find a different pseudo table. I'm wondering if this is high enough with rockwool? I'm thinking it should be considering how absorbent it is. Input and criticism welcome, thanks in advance. I would like to add one more air pot when I get the setup going.


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## trichome fiend (Feb 8, 2012)

...pretty cool Shwagbag! ... you could drip, or top feed...you wouldn't need to set a flood/drain level at all then.


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## SmokinBs (Feb 10, 2012)

Thanks for the response man! you said you keep your mother at 1400, why? I thought mothers were on lower amounts ? but i am a noobs still so just wondering


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## cincity420 (Feb 12, 2012)

Al I've recently made the decision to buy an ebb and flow system and have been taking notes based of your posts, yesterday I seen an older thread you had and you said you run your flower rez at 1400 but I just seen a newer post saying 1000 ppm ? Any reason for the change ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Feb 17, 2012)

Sorry guys, I just have not had time to get to your queries. Got a bunch of stuff on this weekend, will try to get stuck in this coming Monday, but no promises.


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## phxfire (Feb 17, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...the Kandy Kush x Skunk#1 is really dank but it stretches too much, this will be the 1st and last run in my sog
> ...this was day #29
> 
> 
> View attachment 2038219View attachment 2038220View attachment 2038221View attachment 2038222



Looking Beautiful my friend!!


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## phxfire (Feb 17, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Snergle, lest I rend thee in the gobberworts.
> 
> Fuck, I've been busy.
> 
> You?


Waiting around for you my friend!!


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## trichome fiend (Feb 18, 2012)

phxfire said:


> Looking Beautiful my friend!!


...dankx! Here's the last shot before they come down...idk if it's a bad pheno I have or if the strain, but I'm turely unhappy with the finger shaped buds ... I'll be doing away with this strain a.s.a.p....damn shame too because it is KILLER!


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## trichome fiend (Feb 19, 2012)

...thought I'd drop some more porn while the masses wait for Al's return  
...(front table) Critical + (rear table) KKxSK#1...2nd pic is another table of Critical +, can't get enough of it!


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 17, 2012)

wait, where did the last 4 pages of this thread go? Potroast? Anybody?


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## Bigz2277 (Mar 17, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> wait, where did the last 4 pages of this thread go? Potroast? Anybody?


RIU got hacked on march 15th, They restored the servers to an image they had taken on 2-20-12. so anything since then is gone.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 17, 2012)

Well, that sucks donkey wongs. Sniffing around a few threads, claims that anti-drug twatbags are responsible are floating around. 

This, in and of itself, amuses me to no end... as if hacking a pot growers' discussion forum is going to make any kind of a dent in the general scheme of people growing & smoking cannabis. I love Anonymous dearly, but their claim to 'we are legion' is piddling compared to the sheer numbers of clandestine pot growers in this world. 

OK, well, let me sum up everything I posted from 20 Feb forward:

DON'T use laundry bleach, molasses, sulfuric acid, LEDs, RO systems. DO buy a good waterproof pH meter, cheap meters are false economy- and calibrate your pH meter before every use. 

And what's going on in my op? GLAD you asked!

First, learn how to set the white balance on your camera so photos taken under HPS light look like they were taken under normal full-spectrum light! Orange light looks like hell in photos unless you custom set the white balance properly!


Tray 1, with a batch of clones just put in. One recalcitrant clone in the left corner is just being a time-waster. TO THE COMPOST WITH YE! Note that I've raised this tray up about 4" with 2"x4" wood blocks to get the new plants a bit closer to the light for their 1st 2 weeks in the flowering room. 


Tray 2, plants have been flowering for 2 weeks. Yellow sticky cards are a great alarm system to tell you if bugs have sneaked in. Had some whitefly recently, dosed the lot with Confidor. BAM. No whitefly. 


Tray 3, plants have been flowering 4 weeks, rocking right along. 


Tray 4, plants flowering 6 weeks. 


Doing reasonably well at 6 weeks, nice solid nuggies.

So, how's things?


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## Gyroscope (Mar 17, 2012)

Hello Al, 
Nice to see some new pics of your grow. Looking good as usual ! I was surprised to see how close the fans are to the plants.

What is the name brand of your yellow sticky traps ?

Also, I just bought a home in the country to fix up and was wondering something. The Ph of the well water is 6.8 and the PPM is 20. It tastes OK and does not have any kind of a smell to it. Would you give it a try like it is or go with RO ? I have heard you say that bore water can be a problem.


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## Bigz2277 (Mar 17, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Hello Al,
> Nice to see some new pics of your grow. Looking good as usual ! I was surprised to see how close the fans are to the plants.
> 
> What is the name brand of your yellow sticky traps ?
> ...


sounds fine man, my tap water is 8.0 and 200 ppm. If oregon is where you are headed im pretty sure there water is solid. im Eastern wa myself.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 17, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Hello Al,
> Nice to see some new pics of your grow. Looking good as usual ! I was surprised to see how close the fans are to the plants.


Thanks.

If the room were bigger, the fans would be further away, but there's simply no more room. The fans run on low speed and probably should have a speed controller on them to slow them down even more. New clones especially don't like a lot of wind on them, so I raise the fan for that table up so the air blows over top of them. When the plants get bigger, they can tolerate a bit more breeze. 



> What is the name brand of your yellow sticky traps ?


Not sure, but I think they're made by 'Seabright Laboratories.' I'm sure there's dozens of makers of the things. Should be available at any hydro shop, garden shop or hardware store. 



> Also, I just bought a home in the country to fix up and was wondering something. The Ph of the well water is 6.8 and the PPM is 20. It tastes OK and does not have any kind of a smell to it. Would you give it a try like it is or go with RO ? I have heard you say that bore water can be a problem.


Noice! Sounds like it's fine to use your bore water. Only when there's a high sulfur or iron content need you consider RO.



Bigz2277 said:


> sounds fine man, my tap water is 8.0 and 200 ppm. If oregon is where you are headed im pretty sure there water is solid. im Eastern wa myself.


Yep, your pH is a bit alkaline, most likely due to some Ca & Mg content, which is indicated by the 200ppm TDS figure. I'm sure it's fine, just by correcting the pH down with some phosphoric acid, which I'm confident you already do.


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## Gyroscope (Mar 17, 2012)

Thanks for the reply Al.

I just finished reading your "get a harvest every two weeks" thread on here. All 1966 posts. I read this one first and then went back to your old one taking it on a little at a time. I guess I'll look in on your "batch of clones in rockwool" next. Man you have a lot of patience answering the same things over and over. I was tempted to ask you how long do you leave your clones in veg, lol.-Gyro


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Thanks for the reply Al.
> 
> I just finished reading your "get a harvest every two weeks" thread on here. All 1966 posts.


You're a bit of a masochist. xD



> I read this one first and then went back to your old one taking it on a little at a time.


Goes on a bit, doesn't it? 



> I guess I'll look in on your "batch of clones in rockwool" next.


I rather like that thread, but most of the meat of it is in the 1st 10 pgs or so. The method remains the same in my op at present, but I now only use plain water when watering clones. No H2O2 or weak nutes in ther watering soln; seems the latter was slowing things down a bit. No nutes 'til they have roots. 



> Man you have a lot of patience answering the same things over and over. I was tempted to ask you how long do you leave your clones in veg, lol.-Gyro


The repetition gets annoying after a while, but when a thread runs into thousands of posts, you can't really expect most ppl to read the whole thing. 

I would not kill someone who asked how long I veg my clones, but I would invite them to revisit the entire theory of SoG! xD


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## jojodancer10 (Mar 18, 2012)

Hello al I'm in coco ad a medium I want to know how often should I flood the table per day the.clones are starting week two and medium is wet I don't want to over feed them.thanks al


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## Gyroscope (Mar 18, 2012)

I knew you stopped using nutrients on the clones, but why did you stop using H2O2 on them ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 18, 2012)

jojodancer10 said:


> Hello al I'm in coco ad a medium I want to know how often should I flood the table per day the.clones are starting week two and medium is wet I don't want to over feed them.thanks al


I'm not a fan of coir because it is composed of organic matter, which tends to fragment & disintegrate when exposed to H2O2. This can result in bits of coir jamming up water pumps in flood systems, along with making a general mess. Your concern with watering intervals in any given type of media is not so much overfeeding but overwatering. I can't speak to the water holding capacity of coir as I've not run any in my op. 



Gyroscope said:


> I knew you stopped using nutrients on the clones, but why did you stop using H2O2 on them ?


Wasn't necessary. The chlorination applied by my local muni water supplier is sufficient to keep a bucket of plain water pathogen free for about 3 days, which is as long as I ever keep a bucket of water around for watering the clones.


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## don2009 (Mar 18, 2012)

Thanks for the recap Al I was thinking of asking for that. Hey Al what is your average dry wiegh per plant?


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## fiverivers (Mar 19, 2012)

Hey Al.
I have finally gotten everything dialed in thanks to you and RIU. Girls are in week 2 of 12/12, running clones rooted in rockwool into full hydroton, flooded 7min/3 hours. My question is, few of my girls are starting to look sad and droopy!??? Im having to adjust ph daily to 5.5-5.8, as it reaches 7.1, by adding distilled vinegar (going to auto store to buy sulfuric acid tomorrow). PPM was only 800.
All help for a successful harvest is appreciated. 

FR


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## fiverivers (Mar 19, 2012)

LOL. Scratch the Sulfuric ACid part....just read a page back..what do you recommend for ph down? Im sure all the vinegar i am using is effecting EC some how.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 19, 2012)

don2009 said:


> Thanks for the recap Al I was thinking of asking for that. Hey Al what is your average dry wiegh per plant?


Varies, but avg would be about .75z per plant. 



fiverivers said:


> Hey Al.
> I have finally gotten everything dialed in thanks to you and RIU. Girls are in week 2 of 12/12, running clones rooted in rockwool into full hydroton, flooded 7min/3 hours.


Flood interval sounds OK for clay pellets. 



> My question is, few of my girls are starting to look sad and droopy!??? Im having to adjust ph daily to 5.5-5.8, as it reaches 7.1, by adding distilled vinegar (going to auto store to buy sulfuric acid tomorrow). PPM was only 800.
> All help for a successful harvest is appreciated.
> 
> FR


The problem is pathogens attacking your roots and they're coming from the vinegar. Vinegar is a fermented product- there's yeast and probably some leftover pythium from the grape crop. One very good clue to pathogen infestation of a system is a pH that jumps up rather quickly. 

Ditch the vinegar. Do _*NOT*_ use sulfuric acid! 

Dump & thoroughly clean your tanks & trays with 10% bleach in water with a drop of liquid soap. Get some phosphoric acid based pH Down from the hydro shop. Also, treat nute soln with 50% grade H2O2 @ 1ml/L every 3-4 days. 30% H2O2 will do, at 1.7ml/L same schedule. Don't use pharmacy grade 3% or 10% H2O2- these include stabilisers that are bad for plants.


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## Rick Ratlin (Mar 19, 2012)

speaking of hydroton, what is the best flood interval in your opinion. How high would you flood in hydroton if the clone is air rooted and planted directly in the hydroton. Love the pics, the more the better, especially of the cool tube set up and attachment areas. Thanks Al!


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2012)

Rick Ratlin said:


> speaking of hydroton, what is the best flood interval in your opinion. How high would you flood in hydroton if the clone is air rooted and planted directly in the hydroton. Love the pics, the more the better, especially of the cool tube set up and attachment areas. Thanks Al!


For medialess clones in pellets, you can flood to the stem tip if you want to. Roots should be under at least 25mm of pellets, tho. 

The cooltubes have pem nuts in the upper surface of the aluminum tube sections on either end of the glass tube. These are for eyebolts normally used the hang the things from. I've simply drilled a couple of holes in the reflector to suit these eyebolts and suspended the reflector & cooltube with *easy-roll light hangers*. The air ducting used is the heatproof semi-flexible all auminum sort used for range hood ventilation. Flexible dryer type duct is more restrictive but might be used anyway. The output air temp of my pair of cooltubes in series is usually about 6-7C higher than the intake air temp. I'm using a 150mm axial blower to run the cooltubes but a centrifugal blower, since it can make more pressure & overcome poor flow characters introduced by bends as well as the lamp tubes & sockets themselves, would keep the lights a bit cooler- but probably would not affect the performance of the grow op. Works well enough, very little of the heat generated by the HPS jugs makes it into the room airmass.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 20, 2012)

Rick Ratlin said:


> speaking of hydroton, what is the best flood interval in your opinion.


Oops, forgot to comment on the interval... Because pellets hold very little water, you can flood frequently. I'd start with 3min at lights on (LO), then again at LO+3h, LO+6h, LO+8h & LO+10h. Of course, no floods during lights off.


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## Swiezy (Mar 20, 2012)

Al, could you please tell us what's your daily/weekly/bi-weekly checklist? 
It could be good if you'll make some kind of tutorial how to conduct OP like yours. I mean what are you doing step by step when you enter the room and why in this specific order. It will probably stop continous questions about the same things. I won't deny that it will help me a lot, cos I'm fucking perfectionist and you're a master in my eyes in what you're actually doing. I've read every post in all of your threads but it's difficult to come back and find an specific answer in thicket of information. 

How much of Canna nutes do u use monthly for mothers and flowering plants, roughly?
I can't remember what do you use as ph up? Do you use phosporic PH down for all stages of grow?
Haven't you noticed any bad smell or taste issues because of sulfur vap?


Thanks for your contribution and dedication. Best wishes

Swiezy


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## don2009 (Mar 20, 2012)

Hey Al why not feed when lights out? And I read somewhere that a guy was flowering 10 hours lights on 14 hours lights off, everyday what you think of that? Also I seen another guy doing SOG but they make bigger plants maybe about 2 feet start flowering, I was thinking of that and have less plants, have about 4 big plants every 2 weeks in a SOG rotation, at 4oz per plant what you think of that Al? Also I was referred to this MLC-4X for your lights, you can plug in 4000 watts to this, and it gives more amps to hold in a room or power IDK, Im not sure about this. If possible can you let me know your idea or google or check it out and see if this is something worth buying is it a good buy, I never heard anyone talking about this so IDK if its new or what. Just want your opinoin. Thanks for all you input.


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## bird mcbride (Mar 20, 2012)

I do F&D in lava rock/clay gravel. Anyone is welcome to visit my posts if they ever get the site working properly again. There aren't any threads.


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## jasman (Mar 20, 2012)

Hey guys. I'm not so sure if al will actually read this but if he does I want to thank him for the time he has devoted to teaching others he is truly an inspiration. Now on the off chance that mr fuct has abit spare time I'm gonna ask my questions. I know there are many great minds here so if al doesn't get back I would appreciate any advice from other people doing the same kind of thing. Ok here goes!I plan to have 2 4x6 flood tables with my plants spaced 6x6 in hugo blocks. I will be running 2 cooltubed 1000w hps above each tray. Probably about 350mm from plant tops. I don't have much vertical limitation. My question is, would it be a good idea to veg my plants for maybe a week or two. And instead of cutting everything from the bottom 1/3 of the plant I plan to just trim it back to encourage bud production close to the stem. I read the harvest every2 wk thread and loved it and I know al said that by allowing the bottom of the plants to grow will just produce small whispy buds. I'm just thinking with a 1000 dedicated to only 3x4 of canopy space and hung 350ml from canopy that maybe the growth at the bottom of the plant stands a good chance of producing tight bud. I had a picture in my head of a 150cm cola rising from the rockwool is this simply impossible or is it in fact possible with the extra luminous intensity. I know lumens don't add up but I thought by halving the amount of plants that each lamp supplies with light would in fact allow each plant to take in more lumens. And also each pair of lights will be colled by an 8" centrif blower so no radiant heat will harm plants at even 300mm from canopy. I just feel that these massive lights will have the ability to penetrate deep down the stems and provide even the very bottom growth with enough light to create solid buds. Sure would b great to get a reply from the main man himself but if not really any help from others would be massively appreciated. Thanks a bunch dudes ! Keep up the good work!


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## painkillerman (Mar 20, 2012)

ok so 288 if spaced u mean center to center 83.3 wpsf at lamp 350mm =13,79inch give take a mm or 2 given 63 watts at tops id not go ur route plants( really thats more dwc area due to larger root volume those systems create) will to large hinder air circulation cause localized humidy unmanageable problemsdue to over density ive ran 66 watts and found if cutting is small 3inches 6 days veg max those conditions will make them fast if all other factors are kept inline h202 decay is kept up ph nutes res top up checks twice daily no over fert problems/defs ur 150cm colas will get 75% less light at the bottems to tops and that given no leaves to hinder penatrtion ie wisby buds smaller palnts in this syle growing is best for maxium bract density giving u one huge cola 10-12" long higher quaitiy as well due to plants have greater stimuils to respond too ive found higher wpsf = max resien max desinity bestresults just my opinion


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## don2009 (Mar 21, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> ok so 288 if spaced u mean center to center 83.3 wpsf at lamp 350mm =13,79inch give take a mm or 2 given 63 watts at tops id not go ur route plants( really thats more dwc area due to larger root volume those systems create) will to large hinder air circulation cause localized humidy unmanageable problemsdue to over density ive ran 66 watts and found if cutting is small 3inches 6 days veg max those conditions will make them fast if all other factors are kept inline h202 decay is kept up ph nutes res top up checks twice daily no over fert problems/defs ur 150cm colas will get 75% less light at the bottems to tops and that given no leaves to hinder penatrtion ie wisby buds smaller palnts in this syle growing is best for maxium bract density giving u one huge cola 10-12" long higher quaitiy as well due to plants have greater stimuils to respond too ive found higher wpsf = max resien max desinity bestresults just my opinion


WTF?????? IDK What he was taking bout I advise you to wait for Al he's the big dog! (He's been active on this thread) (Please guys on this thread ask profound questions to have Al come back for a reason.)My simple idea of from what you said and from what I scamed thru right quick I think to achive good yield at SOG you have to have multipul mothers that give out good thick, healthy,big leafs,mature,feed on time, ppm, ph, nutes correct and well takin care of (mothers)then you put them bitches in flower almost a zip per plant or really more. Clone them bitches at 9" And better. Look for an indica strain thats potent of course but that is the trick to the game is finding that nitch that pack buds easy to grow and get ya fucked up, its a course. Dont listen to me wait for Al. GOOD LUCK!


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## jasman (Mar 21, 2012)

Yeah thanks pain killer and don great advice, I sure do hope al is gonna pop in and slap me around the ear and tell me the error of my ways. And painkiller yeah they're 4 psqft. I have environmental controlls for co2 temp and humidity which keep all of that in order, I also have a hygro controlled dehumidifier to get rid of humidity (well some of it) through the day so I don't need to air exchange nearly as often. I also have 5 large oscilating fans per tray. I don't think density or humidity related problems would be much of a biggie on this one due to the ammount of air circulation and I have access to a sulphur burner if pm became a bastard. Thanks dudes


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## jasman (Mar 21, 2012)

Oh and don I don't deal with mothers I buy clones. This batch is whappa which is indica dom or maybe even straight indica 15-20% thc real heavy knock u down indica. All cuttings are pretty uniform usually around the 7" mark and never less than 5mm stems. Everything else is pretty much in place. The only other thing I'm not too sure on is CO2's effect on nutrient uptake and ideal temp/humidity? Al went over it a little in a previous thread and said 30'c and 80% rh but nothing on nute uptake. Also I feel it might be important to state that my harvest is not perpetual. I will be harvesting every 8 weeks cleaning my room and starting again. Thanks !


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## kbo ca (Mar 21, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> ok so 288 if spaced u mean center to center 83.3 wpsf at lamp 350mm =13,79inch give take a mm or 2 given 63 watts at tops id not go ur route plants( really thats more dwc area due to larger root volume those systems create) will to large hinder air circulation cause localized humidy unmanageable problemsdue to over density ive ran 66 watts and found if cutting is small 3inches 6 days veg max those conditions will make them fast if all other factors are kept inline h202 decay is kept up ph nutes res top up checks twice daily no over fert problems/defs ur 150cm colas will get 75% less light at the bottems to tops and that given no leaves to hinder penatrtion ie wisby buds smaller palnts in this syle growing is best for maxium bract density giving u one huge cola 10-12" long higher quaitiy as well due to plants have greater stimuils to respond too ive found higher wpsf = max resien max desinity bestresults just my opinion


I hate when crack heads find rollitup


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## RL420 (Mar 21, 2012)

kbo ca said:


> I hate when crack heads find rollitup



lmfao. Maybe he knows what hes trying to say but is bad at putting it into words? Idk


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## kbo ca (Mar 21, 2012)

RL420 said:


> lmfao. Maybe he knows what hes trying to say but is bad at putting it into words? Idk


we will never know lol


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## painkillerman (Mar 21, 2012)

this guy Al will know( i like techincal) what iam saying( im used to my own grows and i iam controll freak hence i grow hydro) iam new to givin simple instrution( iguess real simple is best here lol) only 18 year hydro vetern and dispencery supplier with me extra im medical card holder and when done my current hydro grow my pic n video (can that be posted here i havent found any) all who dont know will be come an instant fan ive been growing like the methods decribed here for 17 years and think its great there sites like this i want start a medical club (so i have no legal issuses) and hands on train pple art of hydro,aeroponics even soil if thats thier thing lol as i just started my pk hydro grow 2 weeks in on that one and 4 2 days on my large flowering room 20 by 10 60 watts per square foot 2 large ac for temp controll demidifeirs 8 lights (1000's all air cooled tubes but its top floor so ac is needed co2 1100ppm max 900 turn on general hydro nutes flora series i love its tweakablty (iam trying to crack 3.0/ GPW IVE HIT 2.6 on 6on-12off at thatback to back using f-1 hybrids as the grow bout 20% faster haevier potent as hell basic light pyhsics an object twice as far waay from light (ie bottems of his 3 foot super buds )will get 8 times less light energy meaning ill keep it basic lol jk if using a 1000 at proper distance 24 inches from tops to bottem not even the 36 " hes asking bout at 24 75% light is lost due to photons lose energy exponentiolly3-1 per 12 inches but this guy Al so busy and hes already given u systems here and like myself has tried going larger on hydro table and found for extra veg time (even if just the 7-14 day u said u wanted)has found wieght drops due to veg time given (i mean 2 crops no veg say 50 day strain not incl cloning 100 day average no add in that month veg for both crops and uve done well big long 3footers but thier light airy and just not as good as ur capable of and u wasted a month flowering time to get less than steller results was what i was say


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## painkillerman (Mar 21, 2012)

just my 2 cents but u grow ur own moms n ur clonrs will b e strong i dont lik releying on clubs/friends to many give out clones from unhealthu stock ie PM, this simple mistake i was in a time crunch i did same thing as u and trust the grower of clones as my last grow i had to use sulfur tried all remides this worked best due to no rh spikes(folair spray cures)this sulfur saves my buds but cost me 50 pounds of hash making sweet leaf and pounds of product i had it but i cant smoke it tastes like hydralic fuild smells nasty so if any has better cure for PM ive tried rh 30 ,25'temps i cant go any higher in light intesity,milk sprays baking soda sprays im tring UV light with great sucess with killing PM as i run sealed rooms with uv lighing on all intakes to make sure no molds,fungi,viruses can get to my babies and i helped to breach my defences STUPID MISTAKE but i hear round these parts pk ,danby are PM spyies waiting to get ur babies under thier control this reson alone its worth urt ime to grow mom stock if u cant ie no room make deal with buddy he helps u u help him works for all iam waiting for my snow slyder PM resistent now only 3 weeks old/joker collection old school afgani crossed northern #1 heavy larthgenic/narcotic stone avge sog 20-25 grams per pole highest 33 grams sog method


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## RL420 (Mar 21, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> just my 2 cents but u grow ur own moms n ur clonrs will b e strong i dont lik releying on clubs/friends to many give out clones from unhealthu stock ie PM, this simple mistake i was in a time crunch i did same thing as u and trust the grower of clones as my last grow i had to use sulfur tried all remides this worked best due to no rh spikes(folair spray cures)this sulfur saves my buds but cost me 50 pounds of hash making sweet leaf and pounds of product i had it but i cant smoke it tastes like hydralic fuild smells nasty so if any has better cure for PM ive tried rh 30 ,25'temps i cant go any higher in light intesity,milk sprays baking soda sprays im tring UV light with great sucess with killing PM as i run sealed rooms with uv lighing on all intakes to make sure no molds,fungi,viruses can get to my babies and i helped to breach my defences STUPID MISTAKE but i hear round these parts pk ,danby are PM spyies waiting to get ur babies under thier control this reson alone its worth urt ime to grow mom stock if u cant ie no room make deal with buddy he helps u u help him works for all iam waiting for my snow slyder PM resistent now only 3 weeks old/joker collection old school afgani crossed northern #1 heavy larthgenic/narcotic stone avge sog 20-25 grams per pole highest 33 grams sog method



biggest run-on sentence award goes to you my friend.


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## painkillerman (Mar 21, 2012)

thanks tips lol


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## jasman (Mar 21, 2012)

I love a nice full stop I do !


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## kbo ca (Mar 21, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> this guy Al will know( i like techincal) what iam saying( im used to my own grows and i iam controll freak hence i grow hydro) iam new to givin simple instrution( iguess real simple is best here lol) only 18 year hydro vetern and dispencery supplier with me extra im medical card holder and when done my current hydro grow my pic n video (can that be posted here i havent found any) all who dont know will be come an instant fan ive been growing like the methods decribed here for 17 years and think its great there sites like this i want start a medical club (so i have no legal issuses) and hands on train pple art of hydro,aeroponics even soil if thats thier thing lol as i just started my pk hydro grow 2 weeks in on that one and 4 2 days on my large flowering room 20 by 10 60 watts per square foot 2 large ac for temp controll demidifeirs 8 lights (1000's all air cooled tubes but its top floor so ac is needed co2 1100ppm max 900 turn on general hydro nutes flora series i love its tweakablty (iam trying to crack 3.0/ GPW IVE HIT 2.6 on 6on-12off at thatback to back
> using f-1 hybrids as the grow bout 20% faster haevier potent as hell basic light pyhsics an object twice as far waay from light (ie bottems of his 3 foot super buds )will get 8 times less light energy meaning ill keep it basic lol jk if using a 1000 at proper distance 24 inches from tops to bottem not even the 36 " hes asking bout at 24 75% light is lost due to photons lose energy exponentiolly3-1 per 12 inches but this guy Al so busy and hes already given u systems here and like myself has tried going larger on hydro table and found for extra veg time (even if just the 7-14 day u said u wanted)has found wieght drops due to veg time given (i mean 2 crops no veg say 50 day strain not incl cloning 100 day average no add in that month veg for both crops and uve done well big long 3footers but thier light airy and just not as good as ur capable of and u wasted a month flowering time to get less than steller results was what i was say


like i said.... crack is a hell of a drug


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## painkillerman (Mar 21, 2012)

sorry im little over UR head man and ur level of expertze but this is extremely accurate of light dissapation laws if u dont want to learn them the easy way be all means learn em the hard way buddy id send u my current grow pics when done so u can drool at what can be abtained when at this level i leave nothing unknown this i believe has led to my success as ull see in near future PEACE


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## kbo ca (Mar 21, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> sorry im little over UR head man and ur level of expertze but this is extremely accurate of light dissapation laws if u dont want to learn them the easy way be all means learn em the hard way buddy id send u my current grow pics when done so u can drool at what can be abtained when at this level i leave nothing unknown this i believe has led to my success as ull see in near future PEACE


If you could spell at atleast a fourth grade level, your comments might hold a little more weight.


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## painkillerman (Mar 21, 2012)

Reeeaaalllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?????????????? spelling checks wtf either way my theories and methods WORK


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 22, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> Al, could you please tell us what's your daily/weekly/bi-weekly checklist?
> It could be good if you'll make some kind of tutorial how to conduct OP like yours. I mean what are you doing step by step when you enter the room and why in this specific order. It will probably stop continous questions about the same things. I won't deny that it will help me a lot, cos I'm fucking perfectionist and you're a master in my eyes in what you're actually doing. I've read every post in all of your threads but it's difficult to come back and find an specific answer in thicket of information.


Argh. You know, I haven't got any sort of checklist. Decades into this trip, I'm actually still quite uneasy about keeping any notes or records around. I run the checklist in my head, which is always dangerous for a stoned slacker. It's easy to forget, for example, when the last time was I dosed the tanks with H2O2 (fuck, I gotta do that tonight...).

It's not hard to develop your own checklist, though. It's pretty much clones every 14 days or so, biweekly tank dumps, tank dosing with H2O2 every 3-4 days, monitor tank pH every cpl days, pruning of branching at the ends of week 1 & 3, general daily verification that everything's working i.e. pumps, fans, thermostats, timers, etc. 



> How much of Canna nutes do u use monthly for mothers and flowering plants, roughly?


It's around 2L each Flores A&B per flowering system tank change (4x 125L tanks), so 4L/month. Veg plants use about 250-300ml Vega per (~50L) tank, so 500-600ml/month. 



> I can't remember what do you use as ph up?


I use potassium hydroxide based pH Up from Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe. 



> Do you use phosporic PH down for all stages of grow?


Yep. Works fine with the mums as well as flowering plants. 



> Haven't you noticed any bad smell or taste issues because of sulfur vap?


No. You'd be amazed at how little sulfur the 'burner' actually uses. I put about 50-60g of sulfur powder in it when I got it several years ago and have not had to put any more in. The 'burner' runs 2x15mins/day in lights off; you can smell it when it's running but it's not overpowering and the scent goes away almost immediately after the thing cools down. Suffice it to say it puts very little sulfur onto the plants. All it takes is a very faint mist on the leaves to make them inhospitable to powdery mildew, etc. There's never any sulfur scent or flavour on the buds.



don2009 said:


> Hey Al why not feed when lights out?



When lights are out, transpiration all but stops. The plants can't photosynthesise in the dark so they take up very little moisture from the media. The moiture contained in the rootmass will be sufficient to get the plant through the dark cycle. Adding water when the plant can't remove it from the medium is an invitation to root rot. Don't water in lights off, simple as that. 



> And I read somewhere that a guy was flowering 10 hours lights on 14 hours lights off, everyday what you think of that?


Lots of folks have monkeyed around with photoperiods, for very little return, if not introducing problems (i.e. hermaphrodism in extreme cases). Cannabis plants flower best at 12h light/dark. Reducing the light period reduces the light energy available for photosynthesis. Increasing the light period to 14h would invite mixed veg/flowering growth habit, such as sparse buds on long stems. 

If I could get a plant to make dense, heavy buds under 24h light, believe me, I'd do it. The more light energy you can get into the plant, the faster it will grow- unfortunately cannabis' DNA is built to change growing habit dependent upon photoperiod. Don't monkey with photoperiods. 



> Also I seen another guy doing SOG but they make bigger plants maybe about 2 feet start flowering, I was thinking of that and have less plants, have about 4 big plants every 2 weeks in a SOG rotation, at 4oz per plant what you think of that Al?


To get a plant that size requires that it be vegged for a 2-3 weeks. This requires that you maintain a separate vegging area for plants you later intend to flower. It'd have to be about half the size of the flowering room. A vegging period will also induce much taller plants than non-vegged plants by the time they're ready to harvest. Tall plants are not your friend in the flowering room because of the limited canopy penetration of artificial light. Even the mighty 1000HPS will only make nice, dense buds competently down to about 600-700mm down from the plant tips. This limited light penetration is the entire reason for the SoG method. Short plants have all of their flowering mass in the butter zone as regards light intensity. 

If you want to grow a smaller number of bigger plants, you'll need a vegging space about half the size of your flowering area & you should think about vertical light fixtures interspersed amongst the plants to light them from the side instead of from overhead. 

At the end of the day, traditional SoG will yield more per sq ft of lighted floor space than any other method. If you have plant count limitations under law, I can see why you'd not want the numbers required in a SoG op, but if you have the slightest concern about LEO ever counting your plants, your security culture & behaviour need a revisit. 


> Also I was referred to this MLC-4X for your lights, you can plug in 4000 watts to this, and it gives more amps to hold in a room or power IDK, Im not sure about this. If possible can you let me know your idea or google or check it out and see if this is something worth buying is it a good buy, I never heard anyone talking about this so IDK if its new or what. Just want your opinoin. Thanks for all you input.


The MLC-4X is simply a high power relay that allows you to control 4 lights using a single, light-duty timer. The timer need only be able to switch enough current to turn on the relay in the MLC-4X unit. All the lights connected to the unit come on at the same time when the timer energises the relay in the unit. 

I prefer to use separate HD timers for my lights. This allows me to stagger the start times of the lights slightly so that I'm not putting a big surge on my supply line by having them all come on at once. On 240V, 1000HPS lamps draw about 9.5A when they strike the arc. They fall back to about 4.6A when warmed up and running- about 3-4 mins. I set my two 1000HPS flowering room lights to come on 5 mins apart via separate timers to reduce the maximum current load placed on my wiring to about 14.1A instead of 19.6A if they were both to come on simultaneously. While my cabling can easily carry 30A, lower loads put less stress on connectors etc., meaning I can sleep like a baby knowing I'll never, ever have an electrical fire due to stressed components going resistive over time. I design my ops to run for decades- there's no mucking about pushing the limits of what the gear can do.


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## painkillerman (Mar 22, 2012)

I WONT EVEN SAY IT LOL but KBO CA crack prices must gone up guy ........ they stole are jobbssssss tey stoleee our jobbbsssss what what they do u holy shit they stole ourrrrrr jjjjjoooooobbbbbsssssss !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## painkillerman (Mar 22, 2012)

I THOUGHT BOUT AFTER ABLAZED N I THINK SAYING BE THE BEST THING so without delay I QUOTE' Also I seen another guy doing SOG but they make bigger plants maybe about 2 feet start flowering, I was thinking of that and have less plants, have about 4 big plants every 2 weeks in a SOG rotation, at 4oz per plant what you think of that Al? 
To get a plant that size requires that it be vegged for a 2-3 weeks. This requires that you maintain a separate vegging area for plants you later intend to flower. It'd have to be about half the size of the flowering room. A vegging period will also induce much taller plants than non-vegged plants by the time they're ready to harvest. Tall plants are not your friend in the flowering room because of the limited canopy penetration of artificial light. Even the mighty 1000HPS will only make nice, dense buds competently down to about 600-700mm down from the plant tips. This limited light penetration is the entire reason for the SoG method. Short plants have all of their flowering mass in the butter zone as regards light intensity. post taken from ur god als reply end QUOTE"
If you want to grow a smaller number of bigger plants, you'll need a vegging space about half the size of your flowering area & you should think about vertical light fixtures interspersed amongst the plants to light them from the side instead of from overhead. 
At the end of the day, traditional SoG will yield more per sq ft of lighted floor space than any other method. If you have plant count limitations under law, I can see why you'd not want the numbers required in a SoG op, but if you have the slightest concern about LEO ever counting your plants, your security culture & behaviour need a revisit.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 22, 2012)

jasman said:


> Hey guys. I'm not so sure if al will actually read this but if he does I want to thank him for the time he has devoted to teaching others he is truly an inspiration.


Thanks. 



> Now on the off chance that mr fuct has abit spare time I'm gonna ask my questions. I know there are many great minds here so if al doesn't get back I would appreciate any advice from other people doing the same kind of thing. Ok here goes!I plan to have 2 4x6 flood tables with my plants spaced 6x6 in hugo blocks.


What's a hugo block?


> I will be running 2 cooltubed 1000w hps above each tray. Probably about 350mm from plant tops. I don't have much vertical limitation. My question is, would it be a good idea to veg my plants for maybe a week or two.


No. The result will be tall plants- and you won't be happy with the results.

I just wrote this in my last reply: 



> * Tall plants are not your friend in the flowering room because of the limited canopy penetration of artificial light. Even the mighty 1000HPS will only make nice, dense buds competently down to about 600-700mm down from the plant tips. This limited light penetration is the entire reason for the SoG method. Short plants have all of their flowering mass in the butter zone as regards light intensity.
> 
> If you want to grow a smaller number of bigger plants, you'll need a vegging space about half the size of your flowering area... *





> And instead of cutting everything from the bottom 1/3 of the plant I plan to just trim it back to encourage bud production close to the stem.


Will result in time-waster buds that will have the effect of hurting the yield in the top cola. 



> I read the harvest every2 wk thread and loved it and I know al said that by allowing the bottom of the plants to grow will just produce small whispy buds.


Yep, and that's what you'll get.




> I'm just thinking with a 1000 dedicated to only 3x4 of canopy space and hung 350ml from canopy that maybe the growth at the bottom of the plant stands a good chance of producing tight bud. I had a picture in my head of a 150cm cola rising from the rockwool is this simply impossible or is it in fact possible with the extra luminous intensity


.

What extra intensity?

I think you're being wishful if you think you're going to get dense buds 1.85m away from the light (1.5m plant + 35cm clearance). 



> I know lumens don't add up but I thought by halving the amount of plants that each lamp supplies with light would in fact allow each plant to take in more lumens. And also each pair of lights will be colled by an 8" centrif blower so no radiant heat will harm plants at even 300mm from canopy. I just feel that these massive lights will have the ability to penetrate deep down the stems and provide even the very bottom growth with enough light to create solid buds. Sure would b great to get a reply from the main man himself but if not really any help from others would be massively appreciated. Thanks a bunch dudes ! Keep up the good work!


Light intensity reduces as a function of inverse square with distance from the light source. Double the distance, quarter the light intensity. I don't think you're going to get the result you want. 

Thanks for the thanks. 

I understand perfectly what painkillerman is saying, but a sentence & paragraph break would make him a lot easier to read. 

I try not to snipe at writing style too much but if you make yourself hard to read I may not read you. 

In our discussions in this thread, I'd appreciate it if we were all somewhat nice to one another, though.


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## panhead (Mar 22, 2012)

RL420 said:


> biggest run-on sentence award goes to you my friend.


Please dont antagonize members or resort to name calling,while painkiller's punctuation makes his posts hard to read he has not been deserving of disrespect.

Play nice.


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## jasman (Mar 22, 2012)

Hi al and thanks for getting back to me. A hugo block is a 6x6x6" rockwool block. And thanks for the heads up on the bad idea lol. I'm just going to put them straigh in to flower then, no point in changing something I already know works (really quite well tbh). And if u say the change would be detrimental to the yield. I have similar experience running the same setup with 600s and no veg and got good results. So would u suggest increasing floor space and plant count, and spreading the 1000s out to cover the extra floor space (of course with no veg). Or keeping the same floorspace and plant count and using the 1000s closer to the canopy in order to achieve a better yield per plant? Thanks al much appreciated.


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## painkillerman (Mar 22, 2012)

tops off panhead this is what growing site vibe needs,as i have tons hydro/soilless growing experince but first time helping teach the masses but i know the posts LONG N TECHNICAL but accurate ill try keep post down earth in plain easy read's


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## RL420 (Mar 22, 2012)

panhead said:


> Please dont antagonize members or resort to name calling,while painkiller's punctuation makes his posts hard to read he has not been deserving of disrespect.
> 
> Play nice.


I dont think i called him any names. Antagonize? I was giving him an award!





painkillerman said:


> tops off panhead this is what growing site vibe needs,as i have tons hydro/soilless growing experince but first time helping teach the masses but i know the posts LONG N TECHNICAL but accurate ill try keep post down earth in plain easy read's


Yeah because a grow website should promote the use of grow information that you have to decode just to understand. Gotcha. Peace


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## jasman (Mar 23, 2012)

Does anyone have a link to a good home made batwing for a cooltube. I was sure al had made one but can't find it :s hmmmmm.


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## painkillerman (Mar 23, 2012)

posts will be given as the question is answered (some ppl really know the technial terms as i was chem major and botinany student way back in the day but i dont need any more awards lol so ill keep stuff short sweet and to the point in easy to understand terms But any one wants or craves the teck and leaves no detail to chance please ask me anything(harder the better i need a challenge as of late) ill repond and give facts plus the science y this works/fails so we can all learn togegther PEACE


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## jasman (Mar 23, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> posts will be given as the question is answered (some ppl really know the technial terms as i was chem major and botinany student way back in the day but i dont need any more awards lol so ill keep stuff short sweet and to the point in easy to understand terms But any one wants or craves the teck and leaves no detail to chance please ask me anything(harder the better i need a challenge as of late) ill repond and give facts plus the science y this works/fails so we can all learn togegther PEACE


Maybe you can answer this for me painkiller. When using a co2 system, due to the plants extra thirst for nutrients, would it be better to water more frequently or water for a longer period. Or would it be better to up the ppm of the nute solution? I feel as if both the frequency of watering and the ppm could be up'd but wanna know for sure first. Thanks dude


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## painkillerman (Mar 23, 2012)

well first off Thank You also great TRICK QUESTION !!! ive found when running high co2 irun mine at 1100max900min i find that running less but more often is the best plan off attack!!! now the real reason y im sure someone will find this long n techy but VERY useful due to the extra metsblism caused when co2 is ran with opitmal conditions meet the less watering (high flow 396 gph) forces the plant to to adapt less food at one givin time eats more as it it forced to absorb more (due to lower cf will increase the plants metablismeven when not combined with c02 ) more faster too maintain contenst cf consentrations inthe plant tissues the cells rapid divsion osmosic pressure must be mantained (due to rapid gwoth the plant cells osmosic slight pressure change must be maintined thus fastest rates growth so raising the waste by products this waste cause unbalanced ec/ppm slightly but each feeding(also increased co2 demands increased 02 inthe roots zone for fastest metablism rates possible maxamizn CO2 levels as a result)(causing less than optimal growth done if left as as system not running co2 water frequency adjustments thus resulting in more growthin faster in short the faster ur metablism in ur plants just like anyliving thing higher metablism increased water needs due to engery spent thier simple terms if a sprinter was at to eattill he was stuffed and didnt drink more fluids to boost watse removel he woundnt be a sprinter lol if u want to build muscle u eat less more often and drink tons fuilds (due to cell stimuli/metablism/leading to wastes)also keep close eye on h202 adjust as needed ex(40 02 levels are safe adding 100ml 29% makes 2900ml o2 if memory severs H2(2)02(2)-(organic material) catalist-2H2(2)0+02 balanced chemical/chemical reation leading to realease of free02 molcule hope this helps LOL and thanks if i knew how 420 ur rep i would guy !!!!!!!!!hence y h202 needs top up daily but due to unknown varables(level of organics) decay is impossible to predict Tips when in doubt if u should add take any soft centered plant stem and dunk in solution fresh and when in question look at them both times first will bubble a if u put h202 on cut ur hand and check often u will know the perfect time ud be surprized on decay rates cleaner system slower rates 2-3 maxuim i can give u an experiment and actually measure the 02 realeased from given reactionif u know little chemistry/math


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## Bigz2277 (Mar 23, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> well first off Thank You also great TRICK QUESTION !!! ive found when running high co2 irun mine at 1100max900min i find that running less but more often is the best plan off attack!!! now the real reason y im sure someone will find this long n techy but VERY useful due to the extra metsblism caused when co2 is ran with opitmal conditions meet the less watering (high flow 396 gph) forces the plant to to adapt less food at one givin time eats more as it it forced to absorb more (due to lower cf will increase the plants metablismeven when not combined with c02 ) more faster too maintain contenst cf consentrations inthe plant tissues the cells rapid divsion osmosic pressure must be mantained (due to rapid gwoth the plant cells osmosic slight pressure change must be maintined thus fastest rates growth so raising the waste by products this waste cause unbalanced ec/ppm slightly but each feeding(also increased co2 demands increased 02 inthe roots zone for fastest metablism rates possible maxamizn CO2 levels as a result)(causing less than optimal growth done if left as as system not running co2 water frequency adjustments thus resulting in more growthin faster in short the faster ur metablism in ur plants just like anyliving thing higher metablism increased water needs due to engery spent thier simple terms if a sprinter was at to eattill he was stuffed and didnt drink more fluids to boost watse removel he woundnt be a sprinter lol if u want to build muscle u eat less more often and drink tons fuilds (due to cell stimuli/metablism/leading to wastes)also keep close eye on h202 adjust as needed ex(40 02 levels are safe adding 100ml 29% makes 2900ml o2 if memory severs H2(2)02(2)-(organic material) catalist-2H2(2)0+02 balanced chemical/chemical reation leading to realease of free02 molcule hope this helps LOL and thanks if i knew how 420 ur rep i would guy !!!!!!!!!hence y h202 needs top up daily but due to unknown varables(level of organics) decay is impossible to predict Tips when in doubt if u should add take any soft centered plant stem and dunk in solution fresh and when in question look at them both times first will bubble a if u put h202 on cut ur hand and check often u will know the perfect time ud be surprized on decay rates cleaner system slower rates 2-3 maxuim i can give u an experiment and actually measure the 02 realeased from given reactionif u know little chemistry/math


.......... paragraphs man... paragraphs. that hurts my eyes to even try to read. when you finish a thought. Hit the enter button to make a space in between.


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## painkillerman (Mar 23, 2012)

I"ll try but, I get in these rants and forget this happens from time to time the next one guy ill increase puncution skills. As i have been away school too long smoke to much but im trying make for smoother read one at a time.


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## Bigz2277 (Mar 23, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> I"ll try but, I get in these rants and forget this happens from time to time the next one guy ill increase puncution skills. As i have been away school too long smoke to much but im trying make for smoother read one at a time.


I dont really care about correct grammar and punctuation, just a little space in between your thoughts helps the reader. Look at how Al posts its all broken up to who he is addressing. just trying to save you some future wars with people over something so simple. cheers ^_^


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## painkillerman (Mar 23, 2012)

very true thanks Bigz


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 25, 2012)

jasman said:


> Hi al and thanks for getting back to me. A hugo block is a 6x6x6" rockwool block. And thanks for the heads up on the bad idea lol. I'm just going to put them straigh in to flower then, no point in changing something I already know works (really quite well tbh). And if u say the change would be detrimental to the yield. I have similar experience running the same setup with 600s and no veg and got good results. So would u suggest increasing floor space and plant count, and spreading the 1000s out to cover the extra floor space (of course with no veg). Or keeping the same floorspace and plant count and using the 1000s closer to the canopy in order to achieve a better yield per plant? Thanks al much appreciated.


 I'd be inclined to keep the floorspace the same & put the 1000s a bit lower. You'll get denser buds that weigh more- and the adoration of all who smoke them.



RL420 said:


> I dont think i called him any names. Antagonize? I was giving him an award!


Cut the passive-aggressive bullshit. You & kbo_ca can be nice or be gone. 



jasman said:


> Does anyone have a link to a good home made batwing for a cooltube. I was sure al had made one but can't find it :s hmmmmm.


Nope, I've always used the commercially made Adjust-A-Wings. You can make your own, not that hard, just some sheets of polished aluminum. The AAWs have a dimpled finish which spreads light very well, though. Worth the money.



Bigz2277 said:


> I dont really care about correct grammar and punctuation, just a little space in between your thoughts helps the reader. Look at how Al posts its all broken up to who he is addressing. just trying to save you some future wars with people over something so simple. cheers ^_^


Yes, paragraph breaks are much appreciated. I don't expect everyone to reply with quote and splice in comments as I do, but it really helps readers sort out what's being discussed.


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## firsttimeARE (Mar 25, 2012)

jasman said:


> Does anyone have a link to a good home made batwing for a cooltube. I was sure al had made one but can't find it :s hmmmmm.


I thought he made one too and discussed it in Al B Faqt thread back in like 08' but I think it was VV who made one and was talking about it on the thread, I do remember a post by Al showing a section view of the radius and lengths to use for the metal something like 300mm wings with a 60mm or something depression for the parabola. Something like that haha, been months since I finished that thread.

But I found this for you Jasmin: https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/109209-diy-batwing-reflector-cool-tube.html


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## jasman (Mar 25, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> well first off Thank You also great TRICK QUESTION !!! ive found when running high co2 irun mine at 1100max900min i find that running less but more often is the best plan off attack!!! now the real reason y im sure someone will find this long n techy but VERY useful due to the extra metsblism caused when co2 is ran with opitmal conditions meet the less watering (high flow 396 gph) forces the plant to to adapt less food at one givin time eats more as it it forced to absorb more (due to lower cf will increase the plants metablismeven when not combined with c02 ) more faster too maintain contenst cf consentrations inthe plant tissues the cells rapid divsion osmosic pressure must be mantained (due to rapid gwoth the plant cells osmosic slight pressure change must be maintined thus fastest rates growth so raising the waste by products this waste cause unbalanced ec/ppm slightly but each feeding(also increased co2 demands increased 02 inthe roots zone for fastest metablism rates possible maxamizn CO2 levels as a result)(causing less than optimal growth done if left as as system not running co2 water frequency adjustments thus resulting in more growthin faster in short the faster ur metablism in ur plants just like anyliving thing higher metablism increased water needs due to engery spent thier simple terms if a sprinter was at to eattill he was stuffed and didnt drink more fluids to boost watse removel he woundnt be a sprinter lol if u want to build muscle u eat less more often and drink tons fuilds (due to cell stimuli/metablism/leading to wastes)also keep close eye on h202 adjust as needed ex(40 02 levels are safe adding 100ml 29% makes 2900ml o2 if memory severs H2(2)02(2)-(organic material) catalist-2H2(2)0+02 balanced chemical/chemical reation leading to realease of free02 molcule hope this helps LOL and thanks if i knew how 420 ur rep i would guy !!!!!!!!!hence y h202 needs top up daily but due to unknown varables(level of organics) decay is impossible to predict Tips when in doubt if u should add take any soft centered plant stem and dunk in solution fresh and when in question look at them both times first will bubble a if u put h202 on cut ur hand and check often u will know the perfect time ud be surprized on decay rates cleaner system slower rates 2-3 maxuim i can give u an experiment and actually measure the 02 realeased from given reactionif u know little chemistry/math


 WOW that is super technical. I suppose that's due to your expansive experience in such fields. I'm not sure I got it all. Let me know if this is along the right lines.Instead of flooding once a day flood twice a day but 2/3 of the volume so over the 2 waterings your increasing flood volume by 1/3.More o2 to the roots is needed so I should top up H2O2 daily. However decay of H2O2 is hard to calculate so to test I should dip the stem of any soft stemmed plant in the solution to see if it bubbles it means there is not enough H2O2 in the solution beacuse osmosis is forcing the o2 out of the plant tissue. Could I just use the trimmings I take from my plants to test this? Thanks painkiller. I can just imagine a lab full of white coats standing round talking the way you write haha classic!


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## jasman (Mar 25, 2012)

"I'd be inclined to keep the floorspace the same & put the 1000s a bit lower. You'll get denser buds that weigh more- and the adoration of all who smoke them."Originally posted by AL B FUCT. Haha like what I did there? I'm on my tablet and it don't let me multi quote and it was eitha do it myself or quote that whole reply.I never mentioned I have 8 3x6 tables from a friend that got busted and quit (actually a lot of my stuff came from this friend). So it would be possible to do pretty much as you have in terms of wpsf with each 1000 over a 3x6 area. That is correct isn't it? A pair of your tables is about 3x6?. In the op now my plant count is 192. If I switched the 2 4x6s to 4 3x6s I would have a plant count of 284 do you think my yield would be better even growing almost 100 extra plants. When using the 4x6s and 2 600s over each table I have been achieving about around 20g per plant however I had a freak plant yield 30 g on my first run :s which was nice. "Nope, I've always used the commercially made Adjust-A-Wings. You can make your own, not that hard, just some sheets of polished aluminum. The AAWs have a dimpled finish which spreads light very well, though. Worth the money." You know who said it haha.if I were to go the none DIY route would you suggest putting panda film on these? It probs sounds stupid but I looked at a tutorial for making one and they put panda film on the reflecting side of the wing. Is this just for home made ones ? I'd never heard of it and don't think you do this but I might aswell ask while your answering. Thanks for the info al there's nothing quite better than learning from the best!


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## jasman (Mar 25, 2012)

firsttimeARE said:


> I thought he made one too and discussed it in Al B Faqt thread back in like 08' but I think it was VV who made one and was talking about it on the thread, I do remember a post by Al showing a section view of the radius and lengths to use for the metal something like 300mm wings with a 60mm or something depression for the parabola. Something like that haha, been months since I finished that thread.But I found this for you Jasmin: https://www.rollitup.org/do-yourself/109209-diy-batwing-reflector-cool-tube.html


 Dude thanks for that. Seems fairly simple. Cheers!


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## painkillerman (Mar 25, 2012)

ya once day is just not gonna cut this kinda room . id say running 6/12 dat/night cycle (best yeild 40%less power usage too not drop in yields at all )but thats not this topic ,,
2 3in cycles= 3 2min cycles same daily volume more often feedings 
yes top up h202 daily use 25% decay n up from there 
no,the plant is being decayed this is the bubbles h202 comined with organic matter decays and 02 is realeased ,but is nothing osmosic bout this reaction(i use soft center stem ex because its just that wetn soft i find itd easyier to tell if u used this method again this was only example 
just add h202 at ur rate based on ur findings but up to 2-3ml if uped slowly is awesome growth cominbine 6/12 the only problem ull have is finding jars to cure it all 
thanks i try ps keep em coming


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## jasman (Mar 26, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> ya once day is just not gonna cut this kinda room . id say running 6/12 dat/night cycle (best yeild 40%less power usage too not drop in yields at all )but thats not this topic ,,2 3in cycles= 3 2min cycles same daily volume more often feedings yes top up h202 daily use 25% decay n up from there no,the plant is being decayed this is the bubbles h202 comined with organic matter decays and 02 is realeased ,but is nothing osmosic bout this reaction(i use soft center stem ex because its just that wetn soft i find itd easyier to tell if u used this method again this was only example just add h202 at ur rate based on ur findings but up to 2-3ml if uped slowly is awesome growth cominbine 6/12 the only problem ull have is finding jars to cure it all thanks i try ps keep em coming


I had heard about these shortened day cycles before but always dismissed it and thought it wouldn't work. So your saying I should only run lights for 6 hours then off for 6? Making the plant think that a full day has passed when really only 12 hours has. Ahh right I got you on the decay reaction. So if it fizzes then I don't need to top up but if there's no reaction get the h2o2 out. Thanks painkiller dude ur info is being absorbed


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## painkillerman (Mar 26, 2012)

18 hours total day cycle 6 hours lights on ,12 hours lights off u need a 1200watt tungstun1875 watt(for safety) capable digital timer there days the lights on 2times u need this or dont even try


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## jasman (Mar 26, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> 18 hours total day cycle 6 hours lights on ,12 hours lights off u need a 1200watt tungstun1875 watt(for safety) capable digital timer there days the lights on 2times u need this or dont even try


I will not be doing this. I don't like the fact that my plants would be robbed of light for 6 hours. I also dislike the fact that my available work time in the op without having to use silly greenlights and whatnot would be limited and at different times every day. Do you do this? It seems rather risky to me. You obv know better but I'd rather just stick with what works for me. Thanks though.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> ya once day is just not gonna cut this kinda room . id say running 6/12 dat/night cycle (best yeild 40%less power usage too not drop in yields at all )but thats not this topic


You can do this in your op if you like but I strongly recommend against monkeying around with photoperiods.


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## jasman (Mar 26, 2012)

I agree its not natural and an unneccesary risk well atleast for me it is


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 26, 2012)

You can do a lot of things to make cannabis plants bend to your will in artificial conditions- SoG lets you grow unnaturally short plants, for example- but messing with the photoperiod is asking for problems, notably hermaphrodism.


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## mountainboy (Mar 27, 2012)

Hi Al, I know its mostly strain dependent, but I was wondering if you might have any ideas on how to keep my plants at a finished height of 2ft. I thought maybe by keeping air temps cooler ,but no big swings in temps between lights on and off, or maybe reducing N in the nute mix until they finish stretching. I dont want to just start with smaller clones as I worry that would reduce yield. My start height for clones now is 8''. But would like to start with even larger ones. 
O.K. for real last question(for now)lol. I have no heat issues at all with my a/c 1000w light, so is 1ft. from canopy to close?
On a separate issue, I was the guy with the duckfoot, I looked all over for info on growing indoors with the stuff and came up empty,just wondering if you might have come across anything?
Thanks again for your help Al. As always thanks in advance and looking forward to your response.


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## panhead (Mar 27, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> 18 hours total day cycle 6 hours lights on ,12 hours lights off u need a 1200watt tungstun1875 watt(for safety) capable digital timer there days the lights on 2times u need this or dont even try


A word of caution for gowers,light cycles like the unorthodox lighting schedule above should not be used but by growers with heavy experience,or by growers that have a 2nd grow area outside the main grow.

Some well known growers have had good success using unorthodox schedules but to the average new grower the dangers far outweigh any benifits or enhancements to yeilds.

As al allready pointed out hermaphroditism is a real consequence with onorthodox schedules,even for a highly experienced grower the odd's of having the plants turn hermie are seriously increased,for an inexperienced grower its allmost assured to end in disaster.


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## painkillerman (Mar 27, 2012)

well said guys ,as i never recommened anyone grow this way i was just pointing out how i obtain 2.0gpw 

but that said ive been this 18 years now and ur right its not my only room 

i used this method from day one as way i learned was advanced from older chap who was prized orcid grower 

n believe the sun will never hit the ground for 12 hours on any point on earth at 75% growth rates capable (i guess in his eyes 12 hours was just wrong as plants rarely hit these kinds hours direct sunlight anywhere unless artifial (clouds,sunrise,sunset ,shade due to moving sun etc )

leading him through years of watching and making the world grow came on too 6/12 

HERMIES yes in the begin crop sativa's dont like this cycle at all 25% 75% ive had great sucess with no seeds yet (MY BAD but as i was just trying anwser a question IF and forgot theres people that will try to duplcate these conditions when they dont have the skill set to manage all aspects that need be factored in to make this cycle growing advantagous 
KNOW YOUR SKILLSET AND PLAY WITHIN IT FOR BEST RESULTS


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## jasman (Mar 28, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> well said guys ,as i never recommened anyone grow this way i was just pointing out how i obtain 2.0gpw but that said ive been this 18 years now and ur right its not my only room i used this method from day one as way i learned was advanced from older chap who was prized orcid grower n believe the sun will never hit the ground for 12 hours on any point on earth at 75% growth rates capable (i guess in his eyes 12 hours was just wrong as plants rarely hit these kinds hours direct sunlight anywhere unless artifial (clouds,sunrise,sunset ,shade due to moving sun etc )leading him through years of watching and making the world grow came on too 6/12 HERMIES yes in the begin crop sativa's dont like this cycle at all 25% 75% ive had great sucess with no seeds yet (MY BAD but as i was just trying anwser a question IF and forgot theres people that will try to duplcate these conditions when they dont have the skill set to manage all aspects that need be factored in to make this cycle growing advantagous KNOW YOUR SKILLSET AND PLAY WITHIN IT FOR BEST RESULTS


Yeah dude thanks for that. Personally I am in no way shape or form ready to experiment in such way. But its good to know that if I ever did then the resources and knowledge are here to learn from. Honestly I will never tire of reading Al's threads. It seems knowledge attracts knowledge. Easily the best threads on the net! Keep up the good work guys!


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## jasman (Mar 28, 2012)

jasman said:


> "I'd be inclined to keep the floorspace the same & put the 1000s a bit lower. You'll get denser buds that weigh more- and the adoration of all who smoke them."Originally posted by AL B FUCT. Haha like what I did there? I'm on my tablet and it don't let me multi quote and it was eitha do it myself or quote that whole reply.I never mentioned I have 8 3x6 tables from a friend that got busted and quit (actually a lot of my stuff came from this friend). So it would be possible to do pretty much as you have in terms of wpsf with each 1000 over a 3x6 area. That is correct isn't it? A pair of your tables is about 3x6?. In the op now my plant count is 192. If I switched the 2 4x6s to 4 3x6s I would have a plant count of 284 do you think my yield would be better even growing almost 100 extra plants. When using the 4x6s and 2 600s over each table I have been achieving about around 20g per plant however I had a freak plant yield 30 g on my first run :s which was nice. "Nope, I've always used the commercially made Adjust-A-Wings. You can make your own, not that hard, just some sheets of polished aluminum. The AAWs have a dimpled finish which spreads light very well, though. Worth the money." You know who said it haha. If I were to go the none DIY route would you suggest putting panda film on these? It probs sounds stupid but I looked at a tutorial for making one and they put panda film on the reflecting side of the wing. Is this just for home made ones ? I'd never heard of it and don't think you do this but I might aswell ask while your answering. Thanks for the info al there's nothing quite better than learning from the best!


I don't know what the problem is with my tablet but that botched attempt at a diy multi quote went terribly wrong. There was meant to be spaces between each comment and reply. And in their absence that post became rather hard on the eyes. I've tried to split it up (again) fingers crossed this one might work !


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## Bigz2277 (Mar 28, 2012)

I have a friend (growing about 5 years now) and he starts 24/0 and works his way slowly throughout the grow to 4/20. think every 1.5 weeks he shortens the day a bit. he gets pretty damn good results but as stated above work with your skillset (he has his masters in Horticulture)


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## jasman (Mar 28, 2012)

I'd be scared shitless to experiment like that lol. Takes a gut full of courage for me to use a 10% bleach mix to clean my room lol. I'm allways mixin it up then takin a puff..... Then paranoia...... Did i put bleach in or not??? How much went in. Second geussing myself and mixing a fresh one haha. I swear one of these days I'm gonna install cctv, just to keep track of myself!


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## BluCross (Mar 28, 2012)

Hello Al,

May question is on the 14th day of the cycle you are cutting clones from the mamas, moving the newly rooted clones to the flowering room, and harvesting to make room for the new clones. Also you would have the last harvest drying for 2 week which is about right to process.. So that's 3 if not 4 things needed to be done on that 14th day.. Can you give some insight on how you deal with this process. I am sure you have this dialed.. 

Thanks Al,


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## *BUDS (Mar 28, 2012)

painkillerman said:


> just my 2 cents but u grow ur own moms n ur clonrs will b e strong i dont lik releying on clubs/friends to many give out clones from unhealthu stock ie PM, this simple mistake i was in a time crunch i did same thing as u and trust the grower of clones as my last grow i had to use sulfur tried all remides this worked best due to no rh spikes(folair spray cures)this sulfur saves my buds but cost me 50 pounds of hash making sweet leaf and pounds of product i had it but i cant smoke it tastes like hydralic fuild smells nasty so if any has better cure for PM ive tried rh 30 ,25'temps i cant go any higher in
> 
> 
> > light intesity,milk
> ...


How did that comma get in there?


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 28, 2012)

Bigz2277 said:


> I have a friend (growing about 5 years now) and he starts 24/0 and works his way slowly throughout the grow to 4/20. think every 1.5 weeks he shortens the day a bit. he gets pretty damn good results but as stated above work with your skillset (he has his masters in Horticulture)


This method will result in tall plants, which will not perform well under artificial lighting. Any buds more than about 600mm from the lamp will be fluffy, leafy & will be a pain to manicure for little yield. Also, this tapered lighting schedule cannot be used in a continuous harvest SoG plan such as mine. 

In SoG, where clones are immediately put into 12/12 light, plants will grow in a tapering vegetative habit for the 1st 3-4 weeks, when they will shift into full flowering habit. Vegetative growth under 12/12 will halt when the plants are about 400-500mm tall roundabout the end of week 4- and the end result is stalks of tight, dense buds that are easy to manicure.

I really don't understand why people insist upon complicating things. 



BluCross said:


> Hello Al,
> 
> May question is on the 14th day of the cycle you are cutting clones from the mamas, moving the newly rooted clones to the flowering room, and harvesting to make room for the new clones. Also you would have the last harvest drying for 2 week which is about right to process.. So that's 3 if not 4 things needed to be done on that 14th day.. Can you give some insight on how you deal with this process. I am sure you have this dialed..
> 
> Thanks Al,


You're quite right- I'm busier than a one-legged asskicker every 2 weeks. However, the drying only takes 3 days in my bud dryer. 





See detail _*here.*_

Cutting a batch of clones takes only about an hour. Packing a set of pots with media takes about the same. Pots have to be washed with a 10% bleach plus a few drops of dish soap solution before re-use, but if you have about a tray's worth of spare pots, the pot-washing task can be deferred until time is less precious. However, clearing space for the new batch of clones is a bit of a challenge. 

I often have to put some plants from tray 4 on the floor in the flowering room to clear space to bring in the new batch. After that, it's go-go-go on manicuring to get them into the dryer quickly before mould has a chance to get at them. It's important to keep plants pending harvest in the controlled conditions in the flowering room, where there's a dehumidifier & plenty of ventilation available to keep the outbound plants in good shape until they can be manicured. 

I've long considered using some sort of manicuring/trimming machine to speed up the tedious & much hated manicuring task, which I should be doing right now as a matter of fact... but I don't like leaving any leaf at all on my buds, which is always the result from any of these machines.


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## Rick Ratlin (Mar 29, 2012)

Al great info, what should I use to periodically clean my cool tubes, I find that windex leaves a residue, so I just use a microfiber cloth. Also, what about cleaning the adjust-a-wing itself? Thanks sir!


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2012)

Rick Ratlin said:


> Al great info, what should I use to periodically clean my cool tubes, I find that windex leaves a residue, so I just use a microfiber cloth. Also, what about cleaning the adjust-a-wing itself? Thanks sir!


I do OK cleaning mine with Windex & paper towels. A microfibre cloth (as for eyeglasses) will do ok, I spoze, works for eyeglasses! 

The reflective surfaces of the AAW are on the underside, so they won't pick up appreciable amounts of dust etc. but windex & paper towels will do should you feel the urge to clean them.


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## mountainboy (Mar 29, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Hi Al, I know its mostly strain dependent, but I was wondering if you might have any ideas on how to keep my plants at a finished height of 2ft. I thought maybe by keeping air temps cooler ,but no big swings in temps between lights on and off, or maybe reducing N in the nute mix until they finish stretching. I dont want to just start with smaller clones as I worry that would reduce yield. My start height for clones now is 8''. But would like to start with even larger ones.
> O.K. for real last question(for now)lol. I have no heat issues at all with my a/c 1000w light, so is 1ft. from canopy to close?
> On a separate issue, I was the guy with the duckfoot, I looked all over for info on growing indoors with the stuff and came up empty,just wondering if you might have come across anything?
> Thanks again for your help Al. As always thanks in advance and looking forward to your response.



sorry AL , I just wanted to repost this, in hopes you might see it.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> sorry AL , I just wanted to repost this, in hopes you might see it.


oops! Sorry, this week has been pretty heavily booked, somehow I missed your queries!



mountainboy said:


> Hi Al, I know its mostly strain dependent, but I was wondering if you might have any ideas on how to keep my plants at a finished height of 2ft. I thought maybe by keeping air temps cooler ,but no big swings in temps between lights on and off, or maybe reducing N in the nute mix until they finish stretching. I dont want to just start with smaller clones as I worry that would reduce yield. My start height for clones now is 8''. But would like to start with even larger ones.


Cooler air temps should theoretically keep them shorter, but if you have more advanced flowering plants in the same airmass, you could be reducing yield for them. How tall are they finishing up at now?



> O.K. for real last question(for now)lol. I have no heat issues at all with my a/c 1000w light, so is 1ft. from canopy to close?


With cooltubes, 12" is OK. 



> On a separate issue, I was the guy with the duckfoot, I looked all over for info on growing indoors with the stuff and came up empty,just wondering if you might have come across anything?


Nope, haven't come across anything r/ duckfoot. I have not even seen any pix of the strain in full flowering, just a few of the shape of the leaf in veg habit.


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## *BUDS (Mar 29, 2012)

> I'm busier than a one-legged asskicker


lol al. 


> However, the drying only takes 3 days in my bud dryer


Al are the buds dry enough in 3 days that when you chop up with scissors its not clumpy/sticky/damp ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2012)

*BUDS said:


> Al are the buds dry enough in 3 days that when you chop up with scissors its not clumpy/sticky/damp ?


Yep. A good measure of bud dryness is stiffness of any remaining stems. If the stems are still flexy, they're not dry enough to smoke yet. My bud dryer is really quite effective, even when ambient humidity is high- and there have been some rain periods recently which has held ambient RH at 95-100% where my bud dryer is located. 

All I'm doing with the bud dryer is warming the air to 29C, which drops the RH inside the bud dryer and accelerates drying without breaking down d9-THC.


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## *BUDS (Mar 29, 2012)

Before the buds go in do you remove all leaves and visable stem? ,thats brilliant that you can do it in 3 days Al even in high rh, it takes me up to 2 weeks, 1 week in front of fans(leaves and stems still on hanging up) and a week opening and closing tupaware containers(after manicure) ,and still sometimes its clumpy/damp.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2012)

*BUDS said:


> Before the buds go in do you remove all leaves and visable stem?


Yep.



> thats brilliant that you can do it in 3 days Al even in high rh, it takes me up to 2 weeks, 1 week in front of fans(leaves and stems still on hanging up) and a week opening and closing tupaware containers(after manicure) ,and still sometimes its clumpy/damp.


Ah, I see your problem. Remove the leaves in entirety and take the buds off of the stems. Fans alone will speed drying somewhat and will inhibit mould formation to a degree but if you are not increasing the air temp, there won't be much acceleration. Refer to my posts on the bud dryer. 3 days from go to whoa, in almost any ambient conditions.


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## *BUDS (Mar 29, 2012)

Thanks mate ill read it again.


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## Al B. Fuct (Mar 29, 2012)

No worries. Note that the bud dryer has gone through a revision and rebuild since the beginning of the bud dryer thread. Fan sizes were increased from 100mm to 120mm and the heater schematic was revised somewhat to put more heat into the heat sink. The most recent schematic is the one I posted a page or so back in this thread. 

When I increased the fan sizes, I used a gutted fan body as a spacer between the heat sink and the intake fan. If the intake fan is mounted right up against the heat sink, the fan blades passing by the heat sink fins so closely creates a high pressure zone between them and thus creates an unacceptable level of WHZZZZZZZ noise. Since I had a fan of the same size with a dead motor, I used a Dremel with a cutoff wheel to remove the dead motor & mounting spiders. I then used a sanding drum to remove the remnants of the fan spiders to smooth airflow through the remaining fan body. This spacer fan body puts enough space between the fan & heat sink fins such that the thing is quietened right down. 

Also, I use some old pantyhose material over the air intake path through the heat sink as filters. This stops any dust or bugs from being drawn into the bud dryer. More details on request should you need them.


----------



## jasman (Mar 31, 2012)

jasman said:


> "I'd be inclined to keep the floorspace the same & put the 1000s a bit lower. You'll get denser buds that weigh more- and the adoration of all who smoke them."Originally posted by AL B FUCT. Haha like what I did there? I'm on my tablet and it don't let me multi quote and it was eitha do it myself or quote that whole reply.I never mentioned I have 8 3x6 tables from a friend that got busted and quit (actually a lot of my stuff came from this friend). So it would be possible to do pretty much as you have in terms of wpsf with each 1000 over a 3x6 area. That is correct isn't it? A pair of your tables is about 3x6?. In the op now my plant count is 192. If I switched the 2 4x6s to 4 3x6s I would have a plant count of 284 do you think my yield would be better even growing almost 100 extra plants. When using the 4x6s and 2 600s over each table I have been achieving about around 20g per plant however I had a freak plant yield 30 g on my first run :s which was nice. "Nope, I've always used the commercially made Adjust-A-Wings. You can make your own, not that hard, just some sheets of polished aluminum. The AAWs have a dimpled finish which spreads light very well, though. Worth the money." You know who said it haha.if I were to go the none DIY route would you suggest putting panda film on these? It probs sounds stupid but I looked at a tutorial for making one and they put panda film on the reflecting side of the wing. Is this just for home made ones ? I'd never heard of it and don't think you do this but I might aswell ask while your answering. Thanks for the info al there's nothing quite better than learning from the best!


I think you missed this one too al. Sorry to go on, I know ur real busy.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 1, 2012)

See, this is the danger of writing in a manner that is hard to read. I didn't see any questions in that & took it as a comment. 

I would not use pandafilm on a reflector- unless the ref were fitted with cooltubes. Pandafilm is flammable plastic and I don't want to see it hung above a hot HPS bottle.


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## jasman (Apr 1, 2012)

Yeah al sorry its my tablet it won't let me multi quote or use spaces to break up paragraphs. I do have 8" cooltubes. What did you think of the other question about the 4 3x6s rather than 2 4x6s. I have enough trays pumps and res' on hand to do this. Sorry for makin that last post so hard to read. I'm really quite new at all this forum stuff.


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## TrueBoy (Apr 2, 2012)

Hi Al,

1) What do you think about Gavitas concept of running a 400V-bulb in a 240Volt high frequency digital ballast?
Link > http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/products/proline/prolinefixtures/item/gavita-pro-1000-de.html

They run a very efficient Philips bulb in it ... it emits 1900 micro-mol/sec... "Philips GreenPower 1000W 400V EL Double" 


2) I remember you ranted about expensive and not durable sulfur plasm lamps some years ago. Technology progressed. What are your thoughts today about the Gavita Plasm system?
Link > http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/products/proline/prolinefixtures/item/gavita-pro-300-lep-2.html

thanks!


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## MonkE (Apr 2, 2012)

So you speed dry your bud? Have you noticed a lowered quality of taste with this method?
It's always been my belief that an important part of curing is to allow the buds to use up any remaining nutrients. The issue being that quick drying kills the buds before they use everything so you're left with more nutrients than you may want.
Do you not think buds use up their storages and improve in taste with long curing?


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2012)

jasman said:


> Yeah al sorry its my tablet it won't let me multi quote or use spaces to break up paragraphs. I do have 8" cooltubes. What did you think of the other question about the 4 3x6s rather than 2 4x6s. I have enough trays pumps and res' on hand to do this. Sorry for makin that last post so hard to read. I'm really quite new at all this forum stuff.


Not sure I understand what you want to do. As long as you're putting down a minimum of about 50W/sq ft of HPS, should be OK.



TrueBoy said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> 1) What do you think about Gavitas concept of running a 400V-bulb in a 240Volt high frequency digital ballast?
> Link > http://www.gavita-holland.com/index.php/products/proline/prolinefixtures/item/gavita-pro-1000-de.html
> ...


The specs claim '8% more grow light' - than what? HPS? How much does the Gavitas lamp cost compared to HPS? Consider that the lamp renewal interval for HPS is about 12 mos in flowering applications (~4000 hours). It becomes an economic consideration more than anything else. I don't think 8% more light than HPS will make a huge difference in yield performance.



MonkE said:


> So you speed dry your bud? Have you noticed a lowered quality of taste with this method?


Nope. 'Speed dry' is a relative term. 3 days while maintaining a max air temp of 29C is not that fast. It's not like I'm popping them in an oven!



> It's always been my belief that an important part of curing is to allow the buds to use up any remaining nutrients. The issue being that quick drying kills the buds before they use everything so you're left with more nutrients than you may want.


Nutrients are consumed by photosynthesis. You should be drying in very low light or dark conditions as light will cause THC to break down. If you are drying in darkness (or close to it) nutes are not being consumed anyway. 

It's better to dry quickly to prevent any possibility of mould, which is a certain way to spoil taste. 



> Do you not think buds use up their storages and improve in taste with long curing?


Nope.


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## Gyroscope (Apr 3, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You're a bit of a masochist. xD


Ello Gov'nor,

Well I read the clone thread after the "get a harvest every two weeks" and needed even more punishment so I started on the FAQ thread. I made it to post 1420 of 1808 so far. It is better reading than a lot of the BS on here and keeps me out of trouble too. Hell, I think I have even learned a few things...No more questions yet. I just saw you posted on here a few minutes ago and thought I would say hey.-Gyro


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2012)

O hai 

Hope you're enjoying the thread. I don't think I killed anyone in that one, did I?


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## TrueBoy (Apr 3, 2012)

Hi Al,

once you stated an advantage of a flood and drain system with pods is that the root zone is supplied with fresh oxygene whenever nutritiant solution is draining from the pods after the flooding... air will be sucked into the pods from the top as the nutrient solution leaves the pods through the drainage holes in the bottom... (must have been mentioned in the "Get a harvest every 2 weeks"-Thread)

Can you be really detailed:

I cant find no flood tables that are higher than 7cm or 12cm... from my imagaination: in these tables you cannot raise the water level high enough to create this kind of "sucking"-effect, when your pods are 23 or 25 cm high. I would expect the neccessary height of the tables must be around 18 or 20 cm, with water levels at least at 15cm height, so the drain and therefore also the described "sucking-in-the-air"-effect in the pods will get strong enough...

What tables are you using specifically (in detail as manufacturer and model, so I can take a look for photos or detailed specs of them...)... as I said, you cant find no tables that are higher than 7cm or 12cm here...

If you want to provoke an absolute maximum of air/oxygene exchange when flooding and draining the tables using rockwool floc in pods, what would be the optimum table height?

thank you so much, Al!

~ Trueboy


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## jasman (Apr 3, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Not sure I understand what you want to do. As long as you're putting down a minimum of about 50W/sq ft of HPS, should be OK.The specs claim '8% more grow light' - than what? HPS? How much does the Gavitas lamp cost compared to HPS? Consider that the lamp renewal interval for HPS is about 12 mos in flowering applications (~4000 hours). It becomes an economic consideration more than anything else. I don't think 8% more light than HPS will make a huge difference in yield performance.Nope. 'Speed dry' is a relative term. 3 days while maintaining a max air temp of 29C is not that fast. It's not like I'm popping them in an oven!Nutrients are consumed by photosynthesis. You should be drying in very low light or dark conditions as light will cause THC to break down. If you are drying in darkness (or close to it) nutes are not being consumed anyway. It's better to dry quickly to prevent any possibility of mould, which is a certain way to spoil taste. Nope.


Sorry al I'm not the best at getting ideas accross in writing. I'm trying to say that I have a choice. Grow 192 plants in a 6x8 area which is 83 watts per square foot or grow 288 plants in a 6x12 area which is 55 watts per square foot. Which do you think would yield the most? I have everything I would need in both scenarios so I won't need to spend any more money. Thanks al ur clone thread is the BOMBBB btw


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## *BUDS (Apr 3, 2012)

Al what is the name of that stuff you recommend for spidermites ?


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 3, 2012)

TrueBoy said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> once you stated an advantage of a flood and drain system with pods is that the root zone is supplied with fresh oxygene whenever nutritiant solution is draining from the pods after the flooding... air will be sucked into the pods from the top as the nutrient solution leaves the pods through the drainage holes in the bottom... (must have been mentioned in the "Get a harvest every 2 weeks"-Thread)
> 
> ...


not trying to jack your thread al ^_^
check out bghydro.com they have 7 inch high flood tables if you really want a high one.


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## bigwood111 (Apr 3, 2012)

Hey Al, I'm growing in Rockwool flock. Haven't seen much growth in the first week of veg. I'm pretty sure I should of hand watered every other day or so. I'm I correct on that assumption?


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## bigwood111 (Apr 3, 2012)

Forgot to mention I'm growing in 4x4 trays with a 40 gallon res with flood to drain with 1000 watts above each 4x4. In the first tray week 1 and 2 the light is about 3.5 feet away from the top of the plants. Thanks Al!!!


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## TrueBoy (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for the link, Bigz... very much appreciated ... 

We dont have these extra-high tables here ... have to do some research now...

@Al: Do you use such 7" high tables?


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## Shwagbag (Apr 3, 2012)

bigwood111 said:


> Hey Al, I'm growing in Rockwool flock. Haven't seen much growth in the first week of veg. I'm pretty sure I should of hand watered every other day or so. I'm I correct on that assumption?


Most likely Al is going to suggest that you reconsider growing in straight rockwool flock and cut it a significant degree with perlite. 100% flock is going to retain a lot of moisture and could be doing more harm than good. I'm not a hydro guy but this is the response Al gave me a while back when I asked him the same question a cpl months ago. Dialing in flood times and frequency seems like it would have a lot of factors including the plants point in the cycle relating to its root mass and ability to uptake nutrients. Good luck!


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 3, 2012)

TrueBoy said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> once you stated an advantage of a flood and drain system with pods is that the root zone is supplied with fresh oxygene whenever nutritiant solution is draining from the pods after the flooding... air will be sucked into the pods from the top as the nutrient solution leaves the pods through the drainage holes in the bottom... (must have been mentioned in the "Get a harvest every 2 weeks"-Thread)


 Pods? Presuming you mean 'pots.'



> Can you be really detailed:
> 
> I cant find no flood tables that are higher than 7cm or 12cm... from my imagaination: in these tables you cannot raise the water level high enough to create this kind of "sucking"-effect, when your pods are 23 or 25 cm high. I would expect the neccessary height of the tables must be around 18 or 20 cm, with water levels at least at 15cm height, so the drain and therefore also the described "sucking-in-the-air"-effect in the pods will get strong enough...


 The action of water draining out of the pots, no matter the flood depth, will draw fresh air into the media. 



> What tables are you using specifically (in detail as manufacturer and model, so I can take a look for photos or detailed specs of them...)... as I said, you cant find no tables that are higher than 7cm or 12cm here...


 My trays were made by the hydro shop I bought them from- they happen to have a thermal vacuforming machine and produce them from sheets of plastic (probably PVC). The max flood depth is about 80mm. 



jasman said:


> Sorry al I'm not the best at getting ideas accross in writing. I'm trying to say that I have a choice. Grow 192 plants in a 6x8 area which is 83 watts per square foot or grow 288 plants in a 6x12 area which is 55 watts per square foot. Which do you think would yield the most? I have everything I would need in both scenarios so I won't need to spend any more money. Thanks al ur clone thread is the BOMBBB btw


 In the 6x8 scenario, you will get fewer buds but with greater density than in the 6x12 format. Either way will yield similar dry weight but you will spend significantly less time manicuring fewer, denser buds.



*BUDS said:


> Al what is the name of that stuff you recommend for spidermites ?


 Abamectin (also spelled avamectin in some locales) is the active ingredient in effective spider mite treatments. It's sold under a variety of brand names. 

Bear in mind that the recommended withholding period after treating plants with abamectin is 14 days (pears, apples) to 20 days (cotton). I would not spray mite-infested plants in week 6-8 of flowering. Remains to be seen if plants in late flowering as such would even be worth harvesting. Severely infested plants should be contained in plastic bags while you're in the op & disposed of immediately. 

When working in a mite-infested op, wear a disposable painter's jumpsuit & shoe covers and bag them up on your first step out of the op. You don't want mites clinging to your clothing to be distributed any further. 

To prevent re-infestation, vacuum the daylights out of the grow room & spray, spray, spray- EVERYTHING. Strongly recommend you use an air compressor & a paint spray gun to apply the abamectin solution. WEAR A DUST MASK & EYE PROTECTION. Immediately dispose of vacuum cleaner bags. Put them in plastic bags before removing them from the grow area. 

Remember, mites will develop a resistance to abamectin if you don't kill them all in the first pass- so BE THOROUGH.



Bigz2277 said:


> not trying to jack your thread al ^_^
> check out bghydro.com they have 7 inch high flood tables if you really want a high one.


 If you like, but it is not necessary to have a particularly deep-flooding tray to benefit from the air-drawing effect of water draining from media.



bigwood111 said:


> Hey Al, I'm growing in Rockwool flock. Haven't seen much growth in the first week of veg. I'm pretty sure I should of hand watered every other day or so. I'm I correct on that assumption?


Rockwool holds a LOT of water. If you top water once on planting with about 100-150ml of nute soln & then flood every other day thereafter for the 1st 2 weeks, it should be OK. RW floc isn't ideal because it has such a high water holding capacity. This is why I use Fytocell for my flowering plants- it holds less water & can be watered 1x day from day 1 of planting. 



TrueBoy said:


> @Al: Do you use such 7" high tables?


No. Not necessary.



Shwagbag said:


> Most likely Al is going to suggest that you reconsider growing in straight rockwool flock and cut it a significant degree with perlite. 100% flock is going to retain a lot of moisture and could be doing more harm than good. I'm not a hydro guy but this is the response Al gave me a while back when I asked him the same question a cpl months ago. Dialing in flood times and frequency seems like it would have a lot of factors including the plants point in the cycle relating to its root mass and ability to uptake nutrients. Good luck!


Exactly. Rockwool floc holds so much water that small plants in particular will struggle if they're watered daily.


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## Gyroscope (Apr 3, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> O hai
> 
> Hope you're enjoying the thread. I don't think I killed anyone in that one, did I?


I am enjoying it as I do all of your threads.

Not much carnage in that one, but I'm only 3/4 of the way through it. I'm still hoping for some though !!


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## bigwood111 (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks Al. I hand watered yesterday which was the one week date in flower. I'll water them every other day now this week and see how it works out. Then I should be able to start flooding everyday after the second week once a day at lights on to about 2-3 inches? If I remember correctly that is how you were doing it before you switched over to rockwool flock and fytocell. Thanks for the quick reply and glad to see you back.


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## *BUDS (Apr 3, 2012)

Thanks for the help Al.


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## Brazil Wasp (Apr 4, 2012)

Hey Al. Thanks for sharing your knowlegde, this thread has been an inspiration to me and many others here in Brazil.

I have a single madre running on a small DWC system and cant keep the Ph down. I use Flora Nova Grow with EC 1.0 and Ph 5.7 and after a couple of hours the Ph is around 6.8 - 7.0. 

Do you have any ideia what may cause this? 

My bucket is small (2 gallons). I have no light penetration and a resonable ar compressor. 

cheers


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 4, 2012)

Sounds like a pathogen is in your system somewhere


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## Shwagbag (Apr 4, 2012)

Brazil Wasp said:


> Hey Al. Thanks for sharing your knowlegde, this thread has been an inspiration to me and many others here in Brazil.
> 
> I have a single madre running on a small DWC system and cant keep the Ph down. I use Flora Nova Grow with EC 1.0 and Ph 5.7 and after a couple of hours the Ph is around 6.8 - 7.0.
> 
> ...


Also sounds like you could stand to have a larger res. Again, I'm not a hydro guy but a mom seems like it needs some room to roam. Your ppms dropping fast too with fresh solution?


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## Brazil Wasp (Apr 4, 2012)

EC has dropped from 1.0 to 0.9 in a day. Water level does not change much in a week. 

I just bought a 50% h202 to avoid any pathogen. I will clean my resevoir tonight and add the h202. Should I drop the EC? 

The little lady is in a very ugly shape...


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 4, 2012)

if ppm/ec drops and ph rises then she is hungry. you can up the ppm. Root trimming will allow you to keep her small and in that little bucket, if you dont she will demand a bigger res every day


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 4, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> I am enjoying it as I do all of your threads.
> 
> Not much carnage in that one, but I'm only 3/4 of the way through it. I'm still hoping for some though !!


 One of these days, I'm going to start wandering around some of the threads in the hydroponics section & start smacking around some of the pseudoscience & general goofery in that neck of the weeds. There will be blood. Of course, this requires that I actually find the time to do so... Bear in mind that there's some posters that have gone so far down the rabbit hole that I simply can't type due to repeated facepalming.



bigwood111 said:


> Thanks Al. I hand watered yesterday which was the one week date in flower. I'll water them every other day now this week and see how it works out. Then I should be able to start flooding everyday after the second week once a day at lights on to about 2-3 inches? If I remember correctly that is how you were doing it before you switched over to rockwool flock and fytocell. Thanks for the quick reply and glad to see you back.


 Yes, that's pretty much the way I watered when the flowering plants were still in RW. In week 1 of flowering, you won't be seeing screaming growth, but you should be seeing the growing tips & associated leaves displaying lime green colour and the beginnings of active growth. RW floc is so absorbent that you really don't need to flood terribly deeply- floc has a strong wicking ability and will adequately wet the media even flooding only 25mm (1") or so.



*BUDS said:


> Thanks for the help Al.


 No worries 



Brazil Wasp said:


> Hey Al. Thanks for sharing your knowlegde, this thread has been an inspiration to me and many others here in Brazil.


 Good to see it's of some use to you. 



> I have a single madre running on a small DWC system and cant keep the Ph down. I use Flora Nova Grow with EC 1.0 and Ph 5.7 and after a couple of hours the Ph is around 6.8 - 7.0.
> 
> Do you have any ideia what may cause this?


 Almost every time I see a system displaying pH jumping up like that, it's a pathogen infection of the system & rootmass. Pythium & fusarium infections fairly reliably cause pH to bump up just as you describe. 

Are you dosing the tanks with H2O2 regularly? Use 50% grade H2O2 at the rate of 1ml/L every 3-4 days. If you can only get 30%, use it at the rate of 1.7ml/L on the same 3-4 day dosage schedule. Never use pharmacy grade 3% or 9% H2O2. Low strength H2O2 requires the mfr include stabiliser chemicals wot prevent the H2O2 from breaking down into H2O & O while in storage. The stabilisers are not good for plants. 

If you see cloudy, gelatinous gack on the rootmass, the system is badly infected and may need some more aggressive measures to bring it under control. Dump the nute solution, flush the rez with plain water, dump again & refill. Use 50% grade H2O2 at 10ml/L as a 1-off treatment to get the pathogen load under control, following up with the usual 1ml/L rate every 3-4 days. 

Adjust pH with a phosphoric acid based pH Down solution as you find at hydro shops. Do not use vinegar, lemon juice or any other sort of acid. I often see goobers suggesting use of sulfuric (battery) acid to correct pH. Please don't do this. 

Good luck. 



Shwagbag said:


> Also sounds like you could stand to have a larger res. Again, I'm not a hydro guy but a mom seems like it needs some room to roam. Your ppms dropping fast too with fresh solution?


If you're not a hydro guy, should you be answering queries about hydroponics? 

Reservoir capacity of about 5L per plant is usually sufficient.



Brazil Wasp said:


> EC has dropped from 1.0 to 0.9 in a day. Water level does not change much in a week.
> 
> I just bought a 50% h202 to avoid any pathogen. I will clean my resevoir tonight and add the h202. Should I drop the EC?
> 
> The little lady is in a very ugly shape...


EC 1.0 is a moderate to weak nute soln. If the plant were thriving, 1.5 would be about the strength I'd use. Photos of the plant would be useful if you could post some.



Bigz2277 said:


> if ppm/ec drops and ph rises then she is hungry. you can up the ppm. Root trimming will allow you to keep her small and in that little bucket, if you dont she will demand a bigger res every day


I would not trim roots unless there's a lot of dead (brown or tan) rootmass- and I'd only remove the dead root material. 2 gallons is not a particularly small res for a single plant. 5 litres per plant is normally sufficient- 2 gallons is around 7L and is fine for a single plant.


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 4, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I would not trim roots unless there's a lot of dead (brown or tan) rootmass- and I'd only remove the dead root material. 2 gallons is not a particularly small res for a single plant. 5 litres per plant is normally sufficient- 2 gallons is around 7L and is fine for a single plant.


thanks for the correction Al


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## jasman (Apr 4, 2012)

Hi al thanks for that. I'm gonna go the denser buds and less work lol. Especially as the yield would probably be the same. Same money+ less work = success!. I was wondering if I could pick ur brain abit on the use of bottled co2 in a grow room. I'm not fully commited yet but pretty sure I will be investing in CO2. I live in the uk and even though we run 240v I don't have the available load capacity to add aircon. I can maintain constant 28`c all day and only really use my exhaust system to replenish the air. I did a test with no plants in the room and a thermostatic fan controller and the temp only got high enough twice throught the day to trigger a air exchange. I have a de humidifier which keeps rh at 40-50%. Knowing this I think I could get away with no aircon, seeing as I'll only be using my fans 2 times per light cycle. I read that plants favour a higher temp and rh when growing in a co2 enriched environment (say 1400 ppm). So al my questions to you are as follows; what is the ideal air temperature? What is the ideal rh? How would I recirculate the co2 that isn't used, because its heavier than air and sinks to the floor doesn't it? Oh and also could you tell me how I would have the co2 controller doser and monitor rigged up to a fan controller so that when the room reaches a set temp the co2 is shut off and the fans run to cool the room, then when the fans shut off the monitor senses how much co2 has been lost and releases another dose to replenish the room. I found one I like the look of its by echotechnics its the complete co2 package (doser monitor controller) it says it can be used in conjunction with their own fan speed controller but that's an extra £210. Am I going to need this or is there some other way I can rig it up. I know you're a whizz with the tech stuff n thought you'd probably be the best person to ask. Thanks al!


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## Shwagbag (Apr 5, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you're not a hydro guy, should you be answering queries about hydroponics?
> 
> Reservoir capacity of about 5L per plant is usually sufficient.


Nope I shouldn't lol  But I've seen mother plants outgrow 5 gallon buckets in DWC.


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## akpaco (Apr 6, 2012)

Al, I'm growing in a crawlspace where even in the summer temps stay realitivly cool but I'm running six 600 watt hps on three 1000w ballasts with splitters. Right now my temps are around 75-80F but will warm up. I think I read somewhere you recommended cool tubes? If that could drop my temps 5-10 degrees that would be significant. I don't know anyone that uses them but had someone tell me they weren't that good. Would appreciate any input as I'm tired of adding more equipment to my ever growing collection. Thanks in advance.


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## jasman (Apr 6, 2012)

Cooltubes are an excellent investment and well worth there money. Probably pay for themselves after the first crop due to better yield cos u can have ur lights much closer. The glass of my cooltubes sits about 8" from canopy. Since getting cooltubes and dropping them down I have been getting much tighter harder buds.


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## akpaco (Apr 7, 2012)

jasman said:


> Cooltubes are an excellent investment and well worth there money. Probably pay for themselves after the first crop due to better yield cos u can have ur lights much closer. The glass of my cooltubes sits about 8" from canopy. Since getting cooltubes and dropping them down I have been getting much tighter harder buds.



Jasman, appreciate the info!


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## jasman (Apr 8, 2012)

akpaco said:


> Jasman, appreciate the info!


Normal cooltubes will have a built in reflector which isn't very good as far as reflectors go. This can usually be taken out. I have 2 runs with 2 600s in each. 8" cooltubes 8" ducting and 8" fan. This is overkill for 2 600s but when I bought the cooltubes the plan allways was to upgrade to 1000s. As far as reflectors go you want a wing shaped one like an ajusta wing or something similar. I have cheap imitations which will soon be getting changed for adjustawings. They allow all of the available light to be used that would otherwise be trapped in the reflector or reflected back at the bulb. It would depend on what shape your grow room was as to how efficiently you can cool the lights. If you could have a straight run with rigid aluminium ducting from a 6" centrifugal fan blowing cold air from outside the rooms airmass thru the cooltubes to somewhere else outside the rooms airmass, then I would reckon you could definatly have 3 600s in series. So 2 runs of 3. It also depends on the temp of the air ur blowing from outside. Als thread get a harvest every 2 weeks has quite a lot on the importance and workings of his cooltube system. I think its around page 90 ishhh aswell as a lot of repitition of the information throughout.


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 8, 2012)

Hey Al,


Been lurking here for quite a while reading your posts and i have a question or two if you do not mind?

I am in the process of putting together a medical grow op in which i am limited to 45 flowering plants at any given time. In the pre medical days i ran a fairly large NFT op and more recently several quite small personal ops. I am once again in it for the numbers as i am supplying one medical patient and my local coop. or rather will be. Since i was able to run as many plants as i wanted in my large NFT o ( it was illegal so 5 plants or 99 same diff)


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 8, 2012)

Shit touchpads suck for typing sorry.

ill cut to the chase. i have been thinking about implementing either your flood system (albiet with less plants) or dwc buckets as i think that with my prior hydro knowledge that i can get faster growth in dwc than in a flood set up and bigger plants. Im quite high and being overly verbose.

Do you think that your system( with a veg period done in seperate room) would perform as well as a dwc set up?


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## Wafflebuds (Apr 9, 2012)

How much you think that stran of kush running???


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## jasman (Apr 9, 2012)

http://www.drugs-forum.com/growfaq/1275.htm I seen this a while back. What do you guys think of the 9 plants per square foot crack? I think this would only work with a sativa. I don't think my whappa girls would be happy that densley packed! What do you think?


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## JackRabbit (Apr 9, 2012)

Hey Al was wondering if u had any preference over a white vs black flood tray. Also fytocell isnt availabe at my local hydro shop, any comments on hydroton. thanks


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## truthislove (Apr 11, 2012)

not organic= unatural = effect on natural world


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 11, 2012)

truthislove said:


> not organic= unatural = effect on natural world


.............................


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 11, 2012)

jasman said:


> Hi al thanks for that. I'm gonna go the denser buds and less work lol. Especially as the yield would probably be the same. Same money+ less work = success!.


 Yep.



> I was wondering if I could pick ur brain abit on the use of bottled co2 in a grow room. I'm not fully commited yet but pretty sure I will be investing in CO2. I live in the uk and even though we run 240v I don't have the available load capacity to add aircon. I can maintain constant 28`c all day and only really use my exhaust system to replenish the air. I did a test with no plants in the room and a thermostatic fan controller and the temp only got high enough twice throught the day to trigger a air exchange. I have a de humidifier which keeps rh at 40-50%. Knowing this I think I could get away with no aircon, seeing as I'll only be using my fans 2 times per light cycle. I read that plants favour a higher temp and rh when growing in a co2 enriched environment (say 1400 ppm). So al my questions to you are as follows; what is the ideal air temperature?


 With CO2, you can run up to about 29C. Above that, THC begins to break down.



> What is the ideal rh?


 40-60%



> How would I recirculate the co2 that isn't used, because its heavier than air and sinks to the floor doesn't it?


 Your oscillating circ fans will keep the room air homogenised. 



> Oh and also could you tell me how I would have the co2 controller doser and monitor rigged up to a fan controller so that when the room reaches a set temp the co2 is shut off and the fans run to cool the room, then when the fans shut off the monitor senses how much co2 has been lost and releases another dose to replenish the room. I found one I like the look of its by echotechnics its the complete co2 package (doser monitor controller) it says it can be used in conjunction with their own fan speed controller but that's an extra £210. Am I going to need this or is there some other way I can rig it up. I know you're a whizz with the tech stuff n thought you'd probably be the best person to ask. Thanks al!


 Integrated controllers are really the best way to go if you're going to run CO2- and none of them are cheap. In fact, I have elected not to use CO2 because the cost of the controller, gas & gas bottle rental are so high that I don't think I can justify the expense in my own op. Your mileage may vary. However, if you're going to go to the expense and effort of running CO2, I would recommend that you atomate as much of it as possible. If your op is big enough to justify CO2 (mine isn't), you'll be earning back the purchase price of the system pretty readily. 210 squids isn't that much in the general scheme of things.


Shwagbag said:


> Nope I shouldn't lol  But I've seen mother plants outgrow 5 gallon buckets in DWC.


 I really don't think I'd bother with running mums in DWC. It's too easy to run them in a small flood system. Moreover, I'm not a fan of DWC in general due to complexity & reliability issues. If you have an air pump or power failure lasting more than about 3 hours, you can lose the lot. Flood systems are much more tolerant of power failures. a 24 hour power outage is no big deal for a flood system. Much more than that and mums will start to flower- and this can be disastrous. It takes a number of weeks to revert a mum in flower back to full veg mode. This completely fucks the workflow in a SoG op.



akpaco said:


> Al, I'm growing in a crawlspace where even in the summer temps stay realitivly cool but I'm running six 600 watt hps on three 1000w ballasts with splitters. Right now my temps are around 75-80F but will warm up. I think I read somewhere you recommended cool tubes? If that could drop my temps 5-10 degrees that would be significant. I don't know anyone that uses them but had someone tell me they weren't that good. Would appreciate any input as I'm tired of adding more equipment to my ever growing collection. Thanks in advance.


 Hang on- you're running a 2x 600W HPS bottles on a single 1000W ballast? How's that work?

Your flowering room should never exceed 26C. 

Anyone who recommends against cooltubes frankly doesn't know WTF they're talking about. Cooltubes are brilliant for controlling room airmass temps. Dramatically improves temp stability. They should run on a closed air circuit; this is to say they should source & dump their air from outside the room airmass. They're essential in ops running CO2 & aircon as they significantly reduce the load on the aircon while preserving the CO2 in the room's airmass instead of blowing it out every time the lighting heats up the airmass. Cooltubes will knock at least half the power cost of aircon in CO2 equipped systems as well as significantly reducing the amount of gas that needs to be dispensed into the room. Crazy not to use them, even if you're not using CO2.



jasman said:


> Cooltubes are an excellent investment and well worth there money. Probably pay for themselves after the first crop due to better yield cos u can have ur lights much closer. The glass of my cooltubes sits about 8" from canopy. Since getting cooltubes and dropping them down I have been getting much tighter harder buds.


 And fuckin' how.



jasman said:


> Normal cooltubes will have a built in reflector which isn't very good as far as reflectors go. This can usually be taken out. I have 2 runs with 2 600s in each. 8" cooltubes 8" ducting and 8" fan. This is overkill for 2 600s but when I bought the cooltubes the plan allways was to upgrade to 1000s. As far as reflectors go you want a wing shaped one like an ajusta wing or something similar. I have cheap imitations which will soon be getting changed for adjustawings. They allow all of the available light to be used that would otherwise be trapped in the reflector or reflected back at the bulb. It would depend on what shape your grow room was as to how efficiently you can cool the lights. If you could have a straight run with rigid aluminium ducting from a 6" centrifugal fan blowing cold air from outside the rooms airmass thru the cooltubes to somewhere else outside the rooms airmass, then I would reckon you could definatly have 3 600s in series. So 2 runs of 3. It also depends on the temp of the air ur blowing from outside. Als thread get a harvest every 2 weeks has quite a lot on the importance and workings of his cooltube system. I think its around page 90 ishhh aswell as a lot of repitition of the information throughout.


 Yep, all that. The refs included with most cooltubes are crap. This is why I've fitted mine with Adjust-A-Wings double-parabolic reflectors. 3 cooltubes in series is as many as I'd do- and really does require a centrif blower. Depending upon the centrif blower, you may be able to drive 2x 3 seriesed cooltubes with a single blower. 2 in series can be done with an axial blower. When the air in the cooltubes gets warm enough compared to room airmass temp, heat will be transferred through the ductwork surfaces, into the room airmass, defeating the purpose. If your ductwork is warm to the touch, heat is being transferred into the room airmass. The solution is to wrap the ducts with insulation of some sort or increase the airflow through the ducting with more blower power. Centrif blowers can cope with more bends & airflow restrictions as they can generate a fair bit of pressure, where axial blowers, by their nature, just can't. Pressure leaks backward between the blades of axial blowers.



Shivaskunk said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> 
> Been lurking here for quite a while reading your posts and i have a question or two if you do not mind?
> ...


 While I sympathise with ppl trying to keep an op 'legal' under medical grower restrictions, if you are concerned that LEO will ever be in your op counting plants, your security culture behaviour isn't up to scratch. You can only fuck that up once, so don't. Build up a good op & crank it out- and always remember- silence.



Shivaskunk said:


> Shit touchpads suck for typing sorry.
> 
> ill cut to the chase. i have been thinking about implementing either your flood system (albiet with less plants) or dwc buckets as i think that with my prior hydro knowledge that i can get faster growth in dwc than in a flood set up and bigger plants. Im quite high and being overly verbose.
> 
> Do you think that your system( with a veg period done in seperate room) would perform as well as a dwc set up?


 Oh, so you're saying you're going to stick to plant count limits? OK. This puts a bit of a damper on things. SoG is not the best way to go if you are sticking to plant count limits, but any method where you are vegging before you flower is going to give you tall plants. Tall plants do not work well under artificial lighting to to limitations on foliar penetration. Any bud more than about 700mm from a 1000HPS bottle (or the focus point of a double parabolic reflector) is going to come up fluffy, wispy & be barely worth your time to manicure in a system where the flowering period is limited to 8 weeks. Somewhat longer flowering periods (to 10 wks) can compensate to a degree for tall plants, but there's other complications that come with longer flowering periods. 

DWC is complex, especially when there's a large number of plants, and has an Achilles heel, notably in times of power failures or if an air pump dies. In my not so fucking humble opinion, all DWC ops should have backup power, such as from an uninterruptible power supply capable of sustaining the system for at least 3 days. You should also keep a spare air pump on hand, as a defence against failure of a pump on a weekend or other time when you can't get a replacement pump within a couple of hours. 

I'd strongly recommend a flood system; the reliability factor trumps any improvement in yield from DWC. NFT systems are more resistant to power failures than DWC and provide similar levels of root oxygenation, but NFT has its own set of complexities, notably in limited plant portability within the op.



jasman said:


> http://www.drugs-forum.com/growfaq/1275.htm I seen this a while back. What do you guys think of the 9 plants per square foot crack? I think this would only work with a sativa. I don't think my whappa girls would be happy that densley packed! What do you think?


I don't think much of it. Packing plants in at that level of density invites poor bud density lower down on the stalks- and powdery mildew is almost a sure thing. Yes, might work- to some degree- with sativas, but I'd never attempt it with an indica dominant hybrid.



JackRabbit said:


> Hey Al was wondering if u had any preference over a white vs black flood tray. Also fytocell isnt availabe at my local hydro shop, any comments on hydroton. thanks


The only benefits I can think of for white trays is being able to readily see any mould, algae or fungi growth on the surfaces and to some degree, reflectivity. If your plants are packed in at an appropriate density, the leaves will be using all the light anyway, so the reflectivity is not a big plus. I think I'd stick with plain old black trays. 

If you can't get Fytocell, try perlite in pots with a bit of rockwool floc packed in the bottom of each pot- just enough to keep the perlite bits from faling otu of the pot drain holes. 



truthislove said:


> not organic= unatural = effect on natural world


So, water is 'unnatural'? Water is an inorganic substance. 

Let's get clear on our definitions here... 'Organic' doesn't mean 'good.' 'Organic' means a molecule was created as an output from a biological system. Also, 'natural' doesn't mean 'good' or 'good for you.' It means 'occurs in nature.' Bubonic plague is 100% natural. Cyanide is also 100% natural. I don't think you want either one in your breakfast. 

Far too many people have been sucked in by the marketing tropes applied to the terms 'natural' and 'organic.' No shit- I have seen bottled water labelled 'organic.' The facepalming was painful. If your water is 'organic' then you kinda have to wonder whose kidneys it was pissed out of.

Few things piss me off more than pseudoscience and marketing bullshit. The co-option of terms like 'natural' and 'organic' to mean 'good' is all that. 

'Organic' is not always the best way to go- and hydroponic cannabis growing is most definitely one of those situations. In particular, organic nutrients create all manner of problems in hydroponics. You can't use H2O2 with organic nutes; H2O2 is a highly effective system steriliser that releases oxygen into the rootmass whilst stopping pathogens dead in their tracks. Organic nutes demand use of competing microbes for pathogen control- and sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. H2O2 works every single time, when applied regularly. Also, the N, P & K you get from organic nutrients are identical to the N, P & K you get from inorganically sourced nutes- however, organic nutes must break down from their source molecules into the N, P & K that the plants can actually assimilate. The rate of breakdown can be unpredictable. With inorganic nutes, you know what you're getting, every single time. There's simply no comparison to the reliability & predictability you get from inorganic nutes. 

If you want to push airy-fairy tree-huggin' hippie crap, there's plenty of places on innumerable cannabis growing boards where you can do that. Don't do it in my threads.


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## Shivaskunk (Apr 11, 2012)

Wow i typed out a huge thank you pressed enter and poof gone. in any case thanks for your input Al. Maybe ill just try your method anyway. No one knows where my op is i just remember the paranoia from my 12k watt days. that was before the medical scene though. Doubt cops are raiding much now.

cheers


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## jasman (Apr 11, 2012)

Thanks for all that al. Its crazy this is like a job for you. Your away for a day or two and you come back to a ton of messages and still take the time to write back to everyone. Can't knock your devotion to the sport mate. Thanks a bunch!


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## akpaco (Apr 11, 2012)

Thanks for the response Al! I'm using sunpulse splitters which allow me to run two 600W hps off a single 1000w "has to be magnetic" ballast. I will be investing in some cool tubes come this June. I believe the newer ones have a wing type reflector available on them now.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 11, 2012)

Shivaskunk said:


> Wow i typed out a huge thank you pressed enter and poof gone. in any case thanks for your input Al. Maybe ill just try your method anyway. No one knows where my op is i just remember the paranoia from my 12k watt days. that was before the medical scene though. Doubt cops are raiding much now.
> 
> cheers


No worries. This forum software appears to have some flavour of auto-save for text input boxes. Sorry it didn't work for you! You might consider getting the Lazarus plugin for Firefox. Saves your text and makes it recoverable. Downside- you have to clear out its cache from time to time if you're writing sensitive material that you would prefer not to be recovered at a later date. 

Don't fool yourself- cops would be more than happy to raid any grow op they learn about. Paranoia is just a heightened sense of awareness. Use it to your advantage.



jasman said:


> Thanks for all that al. Its crazy this is like a job for you. Your away for a day or two and you come back to a ton of messages and still take the time to write back to everyone. Can't knock your devotion to the sport mate. Thanks a bunch!


No worries. I try to keep up with replies but some days (and months!) it's just impossible to do so. Right now, I should be in the op manicuring...



akpaco said:


> Thanks for the response Al! I'm using sunpulse splitters which allow me to run two 600W hps off a single 1000w "has to be magnetic" ballast. I will be investing in some cool tubes come this June. I believe the newer ones have a wing type reflector available on them now.


I did a little sniffing around on the Sunpulse splitters. Could not find any wiring diagrams. This much I know- magnetic ballasts are L-C (inductance-capacitance) networks that are designed to couple electrical energy into a load of a specific impedance. That specific impedance is an HPS lamp matched to the L-C network of the ballast. The splitter must be comprised of an impedance matching network that will mimic the impedance of a 1000W HPS lamp on the input and not care about the impedance of the load. However, all this means is that the 1000w ballast will deliver 1000W to the splitter, which then couples it to the pair of 600W HPS bottles. There will be some losses in the matching network; how much is hard to say without seeing the schematic, but let's guess and call it 5%. This means that there's 950W available to drive the pair of 600W lamps. Each lamp will be driven with ~425W. Naturally, this means that they're not being driven to full brightness. To be quite honest, I don't think I'd use such a setup.


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## jasman (Apr 12, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No worries. This forum software appears to have some flavour of auto-save for text input boxes. Sorry it didn't work for you! You might consider getting the Lazarus plugin for Firefox. Saves your text and makes it recoverable. Downside- you have to clear out its cache from time to time if you're writing sensitive material that you would prefer not to be recovered at a later date. Don't fool yourself- cops would be more than happy to raid any grow op they learn about. Paranoia is just a heightened sense of awareness. Use it to your advantage.No worries. I try to keep up with replies but some days (and months!) it's just impossible to do so. Right now, I should be in the op manicuring...I did a little sniffing around on the Sunpulse splitters. Could not find any wiring diagrams. This much I know- magnetic ballasts are L-C (inductance-capacitance) networks that are designed to couple electrical energy into a load of a specific impedance. That specific impedance is an HPS lamp matched to the L-C network of the ballast. The splitter must be comprised of an impedance matching network that will mimic the impedance of a 1000W HPS lamp on the input and not care about the impedance of the load. However, all this means is that the 1000w ballast will deliver 1000W to the splitter, which then couples it to the pair of 600W HPS bottles. There will be some losses in the matching network; how much is hard to say without seeing the schematic, but let's guess and call it 5%. This means that there's 950W available to drive the pair of 600W lamps. Each lamp will be driven with ~425W. Naturally, this means that they're not being driven to full brightness. To be quite honest, I don't think I'd use such a setup.


Hats off al u da man. I'm switching the last rooms 4 600s for 4 1000s tomorrow. The first room which was switched from 600s to 1000s came out last week. I fucked up abit with them by letting em veg for abit and trying to get a bigger cola, result was whispy buds at the bottom which got hashed and the same 20g ish colas on top. But the 2nd cycle in there is just under week 5 now and I didn't veg those ones, I can allready tell they're gonna b fatties. I'm glad I made the change from the 600s to the 1000s. The cooltube glass sits at 10" from canopy, with the 600s its 8" from canopy. I'm having problems with my first run of mothers tho. I've got 16 in a 4x4 f+d in pots of grodan cubes. But I fucked up and only got a 100l res. They're looking bad and ph is flyyying on a daily basis each is only about a foot tall but I cut the tops to devide growth like u said and they've really bushed out. Allmost to the extent that I feel there's not enough space for them. There is probably enough material to take my 96 cuts allready but I don't wanna take cuts from a mom that isn't happy if u know what a mean. I think I'm just gonna have to cut my losses and rebuild the mother area.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 14, 2012)

jasman said:


> Hats off al u da man. I'm switching the last rooms 4 600s for 4 1000s tomorrow.


That ought to make some bitchin' buds. 



> The first room which was switched from 600s to 1000s came out last week. I fucked up abit with them by letting em veg for abit and trying to get a bigger cola, result was whispy buds at the bottom which got hashed and the same 20g ish colas on top.


Yep. Vegging only makes 'em taller, doesn't help with cola size. Flowering longer may help with cola size but fucks up the flow through the chain. 



> But the 2nd cycle in there is just under week 5 now and I didn't veg those ones, I can allready tell they're gonna b fatties.


Good news. 



> I'm glad I made the change from the 600s to the 1000s. The cooltube glass sits at 10" from canopy, with the 600s its 8" from canopy.


Cooltubes are brilliant. I've heard ppl carp about light loss through the glass but you more than make up for any loss by being able to run the lamps a lot closer to the canopy. 



> I'm having problems with my first run of mothers tho. I've got 16 in a 4x4 f+d in pots of grodan cubes. But I fucked up and only got a 100l res. They're looking bad and ph is flyyying on a daily basis each is only about a foot tall but I cut the tops to devide growth like u said and they've really bushed out. Allmost to the extent that I feel there's not enough space for them. There is probably enough material to take my 96 cuts allready but I don't wanna take cuts from a mom that isn't happy if u know what a mean. I think I'm just gonna have to cut my losses and rebuild the mother area.


100L should be OK for 16 mums; pots of mini-cubes or floc should be OK. Are you dosing the mums' tank with H2O2 every 3-4 days? Got any fungus gnat/sciarid fly in there? If the pH is jumping up on you then there's likely some pathogen problems in the mums. Gnats spread fungus & other pathogens. Yellow (or blue) sticky card traps will help sort them out. A flea bomb (set off during a 6hr lights-off period) will help smack them down also. May have to do this once every 2 weeks or so until they're eradicated. Dropping mum pots in the leg from an old pair of pantyhose will stop gnats entering their rootmass. Secure the open end of the stocking with a cut & knotted rubber band, tied rather loosely around the stem. Get any gnat affected mums out of the area quickly and replace them with new clones with pot stocking covers ASAP. 

Rotsaruck.


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## itchybans (Apr 15, 2012)

I need to keep reading your posts. I've been so tired of changing dirty coagulated reservoirs every week cause the hydro guys sold me on organic nutes.

And I stopped using RO water cause of the cost. Now I feel more confident about it. Thanks again!!


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## *BUDS (Apr 15, 2012)

Al do you buy Canna nutes this size or smaller? big diff in price to the hydro shops with 1L bottles.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2012)

itchybans said:


> I need to keep reading your posts. I've been so tired of changing dirty coagulated reservoirs every week cause the hydro guys sold me on organic nutes.
> 
> And I stopped using RO water cause of the cost. Now I feel more confident about it. Thanks again!!


No worries. Nothing beats a clean, clear tank of inorganic nutes. It's so easy to be certain your tanks and plants are pathogen-free with inorganic nutes & regular dosing of the tanks with H2O2. Also, as I've said for many years, and as I'm sure you've just read, RO is unnecessary if you're on 1st-world municipal tapwater.



*BUDS said:


> Al do you buy Canna nutes this size or smaller? big diff in price to the hydro shops with 1L bottles.


Have never bought 1L size; I use 2L per tank dump every 2 weeks. I buy 5L jugs (each, A&B). The next size up available from my supplier is 25L (ea, A&B). The larger size would save me some dough, but is harder to handle. I'm giving it some thought.


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## akpaco (Apr 15, 2012)

Al, This is my fourth grow and my first in hydro. I'm using cap ebb and gro 16 pot system. I'm in my fifth week of veg. I'm using heavy 16 veg a&b,heavy 16 prime,superthrive,sensizyme and calmag. I have a hannah grochek and my ph is steady between 5.7 and 6.0. ppm is around 800 and water temp is around 64-66 degrees. I initially had a little leaf discoloration and added the calmag and it seemed to help. The next res change i eased up on the calmag because it really shoots my ppm up. So this week I upped the calmag again. It's only been a few days but haven't noticed any improvement. The third picture with the rust spots on it seem to be the most common. I've attached some pics. Appreciate any info. Thanks in advance


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2012)

akpaco said:


> Al, This is my fourth grow and my first in hydro. I'm using cap ebb and gro 16 pot system. I'm in my fifth week of veg. I'm using heavy 16 veg a&b,heavy 16 prime,superthrive,sensizyme and calmag. I have a hannah grochek and my ph is steady between 5.7 and 6.0. ppm is around 800 and water temp is around 64-66 degrees. I initially had a little leaf discoloration and added the calmag and it seemed to help. The next res change i eased up on the calmag because it really shoots my ppm up. So this week I upped the calmag again. It's only been a few days but haven't noticed any improvement. The third picture with the rust spots on it seem to be the most common. I've attached some pics. Appreciate any info. Thanks in advance
> 
> 
> View attachment 2123271View attachment 2123272View attachment 2123270


Pic 1 is straight nutrient burn, the other two could be related, but could also be pH error related, indicative of nutrient lockout caused by wrong pH. 

Heavy 16 prime is sold as a bloom enhancer but they give very little information about what's actually in it. From the sales literature, I'm inclined to believe it is an 'organic' nutrient additive and not a flowering nutrient by itself. Strongly suggest you discontinue using it and get a standard inorganic nutrient, such as Canna Aqua Flores or something equivalent from GH, etc. Superthrive is primarily a vitamin B additive. I'm unconvinced of the benefits. CalMag is unnecessary if you are using municipal tapwater in most locations. Most water catchments in North America, UK & Europe have limestone substrata and quite a lot of Ca & Mg are leached into the water as it is stored in reservoirs and travels through rivers & streams. If you have sufficient Ca & Mg in your tapwater, you'll see a TDS reading around 100-300ppm right out of the tap. Sensizyme is an enzymatic agent intended for pathogen control. Enzymes are proteins and are instantly broken down by application of H2O2 (which I don't see in your list of things you're using...) and sometimes work, sometimes don't- mostly don't.

Discontinue use of Heavy 16 prime, Sensizyme & CalMag. Get some proper inorganic nutes as suggested. Dose tanks with 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L every 3-4 days. 

Correct pH with a phosphoric acid based pHDown solution as available from hydro shops. Make sure you calibrate your pH meter using standard 4.0 & 7.0 reference solutions before EACH use of the meter. If the meter is not properly calibrated, the readings you get from it are meaningless. 

Don't expect damaged leaves to change appearance. Look for new growth to be absent this sort of damage.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 15, 2012)

*BUDS said:


> Al do you buy Canna nutes this size or smaller? big diff in price to the hydro shops with 1L bottles.


Did some checking, found that the 20L size ($30 saves me $2/litre over the 5L packaging ($87). Was coincidentally placing an order with my supplier today & will be getting the 20L size. Hoping there is a tap on these jugs to make refilling 5L jugs a bit easier. I usually keep a pair of 5L jugs in the grow room for handy access- but there's no room for 20L jugs in there. Cheers for the suggestion.


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## akpaco (Apr 15, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Pic 1 is straight nutrient burn, the other two could be related, but could also be pH error related, indicative of nutrient lockout caused by wrong pH.
> 
> Heavy 16 prime is sold as a bloom enhancer but they give very little information about what's actually in it. From the sales literature, I'm inclined to believe it is an 'organic' nutrient additive and not a flowering nutrient by itself. Strongly suggest you discontinue using it and get a standard inorganic nutrient, such as Canna Aqua Flores or something equivalent from GH, etc. Superthrive is primarily a vitamin B additive. I'm unconvinced of the benefits. CalMag is unnecessary if you are using municipal tapwater in most locations. Most water catchments in North America, UK & Europe have limestone substrata and quite a lot of Ca & Mg are leached into the water as it is stored in reservoirs and travels through rivers & streams. If you have sufficient Ca & Mg in your tapwater, you'll see a TDS reading around 100-300ppm right out of the tap. Sensizyme is an enzymatic agent intended for pathogen control. Enzymes are proteins and are instantly broken down by application of H2O2 (which I don't see in your list of things you're using...) and sometimes work, sometimes don't- mostly don't.
> 
> ...


Thanks Al, I have h2o2 and was adding it till one day I had a bunch of brown slime in my control bucket and res. So I stopped adding it and used it only at nutrient change by adding to fresh water and running it through my system. I'm assuming now that it might of reacted with that heavy 16 prime? I'm getting ready to switch over to 12/12 can I change my nutes to canna at that time? What canna products should I use for bloom and should i use any of there additives? What should the ppm's be? I believe my ph has been correct as my OCD has me not only calibrating my meter but also checking it with the liquid almost daily. I have to tell you as a new grower and a first time hydro grower. It's pretty frustrating getting info from these grow shops as its pretty clear they're just interested in selling you the latest and greatest. Also I'm on city water that has an initial ppm reading of 130 and a ph of 6.8 a 7.0. And I have 29% h2o2. Should I do any type of flush before a change my nutes over and because I have possible nute burn? Thanks Al!


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2012)

akpaco said:


> Thanks Al, I have h2o2 and was adding it till one day I had a bunch of brown slime in my control bucket and res. So I stopped adding it and used it only at nutrient change by adding to fresh water and running it through my system. I'm assuming now that it might of reacted with that heavy 16 prime?


Yep. Heavy 16 must be an organic nutrient/additive. Typical result. 



> I'm getting ready to switch over to 12/12 can I change my nutes to canna at that time?


It's as good a time as any. 



> What canna products should I use for bloom and should i use any of there additives?


Use Canna Flores. In some markets, it's called Aqua Flores. 



> What should the ppm's be?


You're looking for EC 1.5-1.6, which registers on the Bluelab Truncheon as 1050-1120ppm. 

Conversion chart, by Pure of Oz Stoners:





> I believe my ph has been correct as my OCD has me not only calibrating my meter but also checking it with the liquid almost daily.


OK. Daily checking is fine, but calibrate before each use with pH 4.0 & 7.0 reference standard solutions. Clean the pH meter probe per the mfr's instructions. 

What have you been running the nute strength at?



> I have to tell you as a new grower and a first time hydro grower. It's pretty frustrating getting info from these grow shops as its pretty clear they're just interested in selling you the latest and greatest.


Hydro shop counter attendants are not a reliable source of information. As you remark, they are there to sell you what they have on hand, not what you need. If these people were really good at growing dope, that's what they'd be doing- instead of tending a retail counter for minimum wage. 



> Also I'm on city water that has an initial ppm reading of 130 and a ph of 6.8 a 7.0.


Sounds fine. 



> And I have 29% h2o2.


For 29%, use 1.7ml/L every 3-4 days instead of the 1ml/L spec for 50%. 



> Should I do any type of flush before a change my nutes over and because I have possible nute burn? Thanks Al!


I would flush your media with plain water corrected to 5.8-6.0, then start the new nutes as specified above. Don't expect miracles; when a plant in flower has been exposed to high nute strength and/or other problems, it may not yield well. Your next crop will come out better.


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## bigwood111 (Apr 16, 2012)

Day 16 of my AL B FUCT style perpetual. Thanks Al... Big hat off to ya. I was thinking about it for a long time but you got my ass in gear and I made it a reality after growing every other way.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2012)

Fuckin' hell. Now I'm embarrassed. 

Was working in the op yesterday & noticed that the 400 in the mother plant area actually looked brighter than the 1000s in the flowering room. Dug out the lux meter & measured the output at 1m. The 400 (on a rather old ballast with a rather old HPS bottle) registered 245,000 lux @ 1m. One of the 1000s clocked 109,000 lux @ 1m! 

Shit. Well, that 'splains some poor yields of late...

The 1000 HPS bottles get replaced every 12 mos, come what may... but the ballasts? Very old. Like 12 years old. The culprit is the capacitors in the 1000 ballasts. Rather than dork around trying to track down some capacitors, I just bought a new pair of ballasts today. Now the 1000s are roasting out about 525,000 lux at 1m. 

Lesson learned.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2012)

bigwood111 said:


> Day 16 of my AL B FUCT style perpetual. Thanks Al... Big hat off to ya. I was thinking about it for a long time but you got my ass in gear and I made it a reality after growing every other way.


Noice. Clone stems are a bit thin, tho. What sort of light are you running your mums under? I use a 400HPS over my mums. I think you'll get moar yield if you start with moar staunch clonage. My clone stem thicknesses are between 5-10mm.


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## bigwood111 (Apr 16, 2012)

Yeah I run a 600 metal halide and a 400 mh as well. I think I just need more mothers of a single strain that as oppose to several mothers of different strains. I take 50 cuttings every 2 weeks off that plant and some are def smaller then others. This is my chem 4. Im 18at days in now and no formation of flowers yet which is unusual because I normally grow this strain in soil and I start seeing flowers a week into 12/12. Any ideas on that?


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2012)

bigwood111 said:


> Yeah I run a 600 metal halide and a 400 mh as well. I think I just need more mothers of a single strain that as oppose to several mothers of different strains. I take 50 cuttings every 2 weeks off that plant and some are def smaller then others.


Eeek, 50 off 1 plant? I see. I maintain 10 mums to provide 30 cuttings every 2 weeks. I may take 5-7 from about 6 mums while 4 are younger plants being grown up to sufficient size to donate slips. 



> This is my chem 4. Im 18at days in now and no formation of flowers yet which is unusual because I normally grow this strain in soil and I start seeing flowers a week into 12/12. Any ideas on that?


Could be any number of things- has your flood system been producing well with other strains?


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## *BUDS (Apr 16, 2012)

> I just bought a new pair of ballasts today. Now the 1000s are roasting out about 525,000 lux at 1m.


Thats a big difference im getting a lux meter. Did you go with magnetic again?


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2012)

*BUDS said:


> Thats a big difference im getting a lux meter. Did you go with magnetic again?


Would be nice to take lux meter readings with all new gear so you have a reference point. 

Yes, got ordinary magnetic ballasts. When they're working correctly, they're just fine.... and they DO last nearly forever. Supplier didn't sell any 1000W HPS electronic ballasts anyway, only up to 600.


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## ANC (Apr 16, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Fuckin' hell. Now I'm embarrassed.
> 
> Was working in the op yesterday & noticed that the 400 in the mother plant area actually looked brighter than the 1000s in the flowering room. Dug out the lux meter & measured the output at 1m. The 400 (on a rather old ballast with a rather old HPS bottle) registered 245,000 lux @ 1m. One of the 1000s clocked 109,000 lux @ 1m!
> 
> ...


It would inevitabily be one of the electrlytics, they do have quite a limited lifespan at high temps.
I would make a list of all values, voltages, case diameters and the spaceing of the pins, then replace the whole bunch.

I'm one of those sadist fuckers who loves fixing stuff.


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 16, 2012)

ANC said:


> It would inevitabily be one of the electrlytics, they do have quite a limited lifespan at high temps.
> I would make a list of all values, voltages, case diameters and the spaceing of the pins, then replace the whole bunch.
> 
> I'm one of those sadist fuckers who loves fixing stuff.


And coloring ^_____^


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## akpaco (Apr 16, 2012)

Al, Thanks for your response!. I'm in the US so it's Canna Aqua. What exactly should I use? Just part A & B? No other Canna products or any other additives? I also could veg them for a little longer and try to get them looking a little better before I put them into bud? So if you could tell me exactly what to use for veg and bloom including any additives,if any that would be great! 

My ppm's have been around 800ppm for the last few weeks. I always went lighter then the manufacturers suggested directions. That's why it's frustrating to hear I possibly burnt them. But I guess it also could be to much of one thing like the calmag I thought it was lacking. Based on the conversion chart I use a Hannah meter I should be around 800ppm. I been changing my res out every 7 days. So would that be h2o2 added twice in that period? I've definitely have cut down on my overall nutrients from when I first start growing in soil. If I told you what I was using then you might of threw me out of the forum! They get you hooked like a street corner dealer! 

I also should mention when I found that slime in my res at the time I also noticed fungus gnat larvae swimming in my res and in the little bit of water left in my pots. I used some Gognats in my res for a week and then flushed with h2o2 then changed my res out added nutrients and added half strength of gognats. It seemed to work as I don't see any more at all. There wasn't a lot to start with but jumped on it right away. I also have yellow sticky paper up in every third pot and I've still haven't seen a gnat on them.

Sorry for clogging up the forum lately with my questions. But I'm a total noob and when I can get some solid answers from someone with real experience like yourself I gotta jump on it! I can't thank you enough again for your time. Thanks Al!


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 16, 2012)

ANC said:


> It would inevitabily be one of the electrlytics, they do have quite a limited lifespan at high temps.
> I would make a list of all values, voltages, case diameters and the spaceing of the pins, then replace the whole bunch.
> 
> I'm one of those sadist fuckers who loves fixing stuff.


There's only one capacitor in a 'magnetic' ballast, usually 26 &#956;F, 525V for a 1000W HPS. Not electrolytic; it's an oil-filled, non-polarised type. 

View attachment 2125234



akpaco said:


> Al, Thanks for your response!. I'm in the US so it's Canna Aqua. What exactly should I use? Just part A & B?


Yep!



> No other Canna products or any other additives?


Nope!

I'm well aware that many growers seem to think they need to add a number of magic sauces to grow dope, but the vast majority (if not all) of them are unnecessary. They tend to be very effective for making profit for retailers but not for much else. 



> I also could veg them for a little longer and try to get them looking a little better before I put them into bud? So if you could tell me exactly what to use for veg and bloom including any additives,if any that would be great!


I haven't see a pic of the whole plant, so I don't know how badly your plants are cooked. May or may not be recoverable. Pls post a whole plant view. In any case, when a plant is damaged, if you can veg it a bit longer, at least until you see fresh, correct growth, you can have some confidence that it's worth going forward & trying to flower it. If you don't see new, healthy growth in a week or so, it may be more worthwhile to start over. 



> My ppm's have been around 800ppm for the last few weeks. I always went lighter then the manufacturers suggested directions. That's why it's frustrating to hear I possibly burnt them. But I guess it also could be to much of one thing like the calmag I thought it was lacking.


Ca & Mg will not cause nute burn. You can mix totally correctly and still get nute burn if there's nute salt residues in the system. Make sure the system is totally clean.



> Based on the conversion chart I use a Hannah meter I should be around 800ppm. I been changing my res out every 7 days. So would that be h2o2 added twice in that period?


Yes, H2O2 every 3-4 days. 



> I've definitely have cut down on my overall nutrients from when I first start growing in soil. If I told you what I was using then you might of threw me out of the forum! They get you hooked like a street corner dealer!


As said previously, hydro shops busy themselves with selling you what they have, not what you need. 



> I also should mention when I found that slime in my res at the time I also noticed fungus gnat larvae swimming in my res and in the little bit of water left in my pots. I used some Gognats in my res for a week and then flushed with h2o2 then changed my res out added nutrients and added half strength of gognats. It seemed to work as I don't see any more at all. There wasn't a lot to start with but jumped on it right away. I also have yellow sticky paper up in every third pot and I've still haven't seen a gnat on them.


Good. Remember to use such things totally per mfr's instructions. Don't be tempted to use more than is recommended.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2012)

Oh, and by the way- when using insecticides, don't use LESS than the recommended application amount, either! Insects can develop a resistance to insecticides if dosed in sub-lethal amounts. It's important to kill 'em all in one go!


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 17, 2012)

*sigh*

Another victim of the great LED grow light fraud: 

* Switching lights mid-grow HPS to LED

Don't waste your cash, folks.


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## Gyroscope (Apr 17, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> *sigh*
> 
> Another victim of the great LED grow light fraud:
> 
> ...


I feel sorry for them.

The makers of these should be shot with chicken shit for the amount they charge and again for the false claims that they make.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 18, 2012)

It really is outright fraud. No LED or array of them comes close to the light intensity produced by HPS, but several makers/sellers of the things claim they'll outperform a 400HPS. Ain't happening.


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## *BUDS (Apr 19, 2012)

I cant work out who are the bigger thieves, led sellers or hydro shops that make 500g bags and 500ml bottles of fertilizer and make 1000% profit.

Another thing Al ,with the adjust a wings do you have the avenger ($260) or the standard one ($100)?

The Avenger! lol


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## *BUDS (Apr 19, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Did some checking, found that the 20L size ($30 saves me $2/litre over the 5L packaging ($87). Was coincidentally placing an order with my supplier today & will be getting the 20L size. Hoping there is a tap on these jugs to make refilling 5L jugs a bit easier. I usually keep a pair of 5L jugs in the grow room for handy access- but there's no room for 20L jugs in there. Cheers for the suggestion.


No worries Al, I would be keen to find out if the plastic drums have a taphole , like you said things could get a bit heavy and awkward, still there's always a pump.


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## TillthedayiDIE420 (Apr 19, 2012)

zem said:


> yes! the LED evangelists! those are my favorites! i actually analysed their psychology. imagine you have bought a light for like 800-1000$ it will be hard for you to admit that it doesn't work now wouldn't it? worse though is to try convince people to do the same stupid mistake you did lmao up until they swallow their loss and switch to hps they would have convinced a dozen to buy LED all of whom will be telling others to do the same, compounding the inefficiency and the lost efforts. sometimes i ask myself why i even bother, all i care for actually is to have a world with more free weed! haha


I would have to agree with ya there, but at the same time i disagree my friend.. This is not to create an argument... lol For $1000 bucks i bought a spectra 500... last year... At the same time i bought a 600w Lumatek Digital Ballast with a HORTILUX bulb... my little LED light not only out grows my 600watt lol... I have yet to change a bulb in the led... HID lighting i bought Three bulbs... I have one left $250 for ballast $100 for bulb .... 550 dollars for one year... add 200-300 or more per year on bulbs...
Its people like you who need to learn a thing or two about diversity.... They both have there strong points..... Does not take rocket science to figure out.... I will save money on my led in a 10 year span... O wait your just growing this one time and dont do it for medical purpose? or a hobby? one shot wonder? just saying.... lol I use 1000 watt HPS still I love my little LED and it does its job well... 4 plants 600grams is good to me... could you say PAR?


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## Gyroscope (Apr 19, 2012)

*covering my head*


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## hornedfrog2000 (Apr 19, 2012)

Sup Al? I've been watching your threads forever man. This is my first time trying to clone in RW cubes, and I have them all setup under my dome, but I'm wondering if I should keep the weight of the cube at 25-30 grams for the entire cloning process, or should I just allow them to get lighter? Thanks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 20, 2012)

*BUDS said:


> I cant work out who are the bigger thieves, led sellers or hydro shops that make 500g bags and 500ml bottles of fertilizer and make 1000% profit.


 I don't begrudge anyone making a profit, but any shopkeeper who wants loyal clientele will charge reasonable prices instead of the limit of what the traffic will bear.


> Another thing Al ,with the adjust a wings do you have the avenger ($260) or the standard one ($100)?
> 
> View attachment 2129040The Avenger! lol


 I have Avengers. I believe the difference is the Avengers have a highly polished reflector surface finish.



*BUDS said:


> No worries Al, I would be keen to find out if the plastic drums have a taphole , like you said things could get a bit heavy and awkward, still there's always a pump.









The jugs are fitted with a bung suiting taps. I've lodge an inquiry with the shop to see if they can get some for me.


TillthedayiDIE420 said:


> I would have to agree with ya there, but at the same time i disagree my friend.. This is not to create an argument... lol For $1000 bucks i bought a spectra 500... last year... At the same time i bought a 600w Lumatek Digital Ballast with a HORTILUX bulb... my little LED light not only out grows my 600watt lol...


If you have plants doing better under LED than a 600, there's something very wrong with the 600 or the plant under it.

You should be able to light a 3'x4' tray with a 600HPS. Could sustain up to 48 SoG plants, each yielding .5-.75oz each for a total yield of 24-36oz. A 600 HPS with reflector & magnetic ballast is about $150. I don't see LEDs doing that at all, at least not for several times the price. Lot of bang for your buck with HPS.



hornedfrog2000 said:


> Sup Al? I've been watching your threads forever man. This is my first time trying to clone in RW cubes, and I have them all setup under my dome, but I'm wondering if I should keep the weight of the cube at 25-30 grams for the entire cloning process, or should I just allow them to get lighter? Thanks.


40mm cubes should weigh about 25-30g immediately after watering, should lose about 10-15g water weight either through evaporation or transpiration in 12 hrs time, presuming a heat mat set to about 30C.


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 20, 2012)

Hey al, I have a seedling mat that i bought (just a cheap one) no thermostat. i have a barrier between the mat and my seedling tray, but i turned off the mat and within 12 hours of doing so every r/w block i had in there showed healthy roots popping out. My question is, is it even worth having the cheap one on? or just ditch it? (i never throw anything away, i plan to use it at the bottom on my micro cab that i am converting into a bud dryer to add a little heat. the box has intake and exaust fans with one oscillating fan inside it. sound like it will work?) thanks for any input ^_^


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## hornedfrog2000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 40mm cubes should weigh about 25-30g immediately after watering, should lose about 10-15g water weight either through evaporation or transpiration in 12 hrs time, presuming a heat mat set to about 30C.


So should I add that 10-15 grams of water back to the cube?


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 20, 2012)

Bigz2277 said:


> Hey al, I have a seedling mat that i bought (just a cheap one) no thermostat. i have a barrier between the mat and my seedling tray, but i turned off the mat and within 12 hours of doing so every r/w block i had in there showed healthy roots popping out. My question is, is it even worth having the cheap one on? or just ditch it? (i never throw anything away, i plan to use it at the bottom on my micro cab that i am converting into a bud dryer to add a little heat. the box has intake and exaust fans with one oscillating fan inside it. sound like it will work?) thanks for any input ^_^


Heat mats which do not have an adjustable thermostat normally still have a thermostat but it is fixed at a particular temperature, usually 30C. Confirm the surface temperature of the mat by putting an indoor/outdoor thermostat's outdoor temp sensor in contact with the mat surface (a bit of box tape to hold it in contact with the mat surface is necessary). 

You can add an external thermostat to your heat mat. Most hydro & many general gardening shops sell thermostats which have an external temp sensor (often the mercury bulb type) which can be fixed down to the surface of the mat, again with a bit of box tape. Such thermostats incorporate a switch for controlling an AC mains powered device, such as this unit from Growlush:







A thermostatic controller like this will allow you to be certain of what the surface temperature of the mat is running at. 

I would not use a cloning heat mat in your bud dryer. They are not designed to heat air; they're designed to put a small amount of heat into objects in contact with the mat, such as rockwool cubes. 

That your clones popped after removing the heat mat sounds coincidental. There's an awful lot of variables in cloning and it's a rather fiddly process. You have not given me enough details to diagnose precisely what happened in your particular situation. 

Heat mats are used broadly in horticulture due to their well-known & proven effect of speeding rooting of cuttings and seedlings. If the temperature is well controlled, they are a very useful adjunct in cloning. I consider them to be essential in a SoG op due to their improvement of speed of rooting. With a heat mat, you should be seeing first roots out of the bottoms of 40mm cubes in 7-8 days (and even quicker on occasion). Without a heat mat, that period will roughly double and will not be nearly as consistent. Heat mats vastly improve the predictability of rooting time.



hornedfrog2000 said:


> So should I add that 10-15 grams of water back to the cube?


Isn't that what you're doing when watering the cubes every 12 hours?


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## hornedfrog2000 (Apr 20, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Isn't that what you're doing when watering the cubes every 12 hours?


I wasn't sure if that is what you meant. Thanks.


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## Swiezy (Apr 24, 2012)

Al, have you still got your exhaust swithched to thermostat? I am considering to don't use thermostat to make sure that all laydies got delivered enough of fresh air. I will switch a heater to heating thermostat. When temperature drops, heater switching on. What do you think about that?

how big tray u need to keep 10 mothers? And are you using first half of them when second half is growing up to be ready or u got 10 adult mums and taking few cuttings from every one?


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 24, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> Al, have you still got your exhaust swithched to thermostat?



Yes. I'm in a somewhat cool location and thus have my ballasts in the flowering room to keep the air temps up to 24-26C. There's also a dehumidifier in the flowering room that runs 24/7, which also puts some heat into the airmass. Consequently, the room needs thermostatic control of the intake/exhaust fans for when the airmass exceeds 26C.



> I am considering to don't use thermostat to make sure that all laydies got delivered enough of fresh air. I will switch a heater to heating thermostat. When temperature drops, heater switching on. What do you think about that?


While the exact amount of time it will take to deplete the room's air of all CO2 depends on the actual volume of the room's airmass, it would be on the order of hours even for a minimally sized room, as mine is (7'W x 8'L x 7'H = 392 cu ft). Plants will consume CO2 mainly when lights are on and they are actively photosynthesising. When lights are on, they should be putting enough heat into the airmass to trigger thermostatically controlled ventilation fans. 

During lights off, ventilation is not as critical, but will keep humidity under control (30-50% is ideal). If you are depending upon heat to trigger thermostatically controlled fans, bear in mind that unless you are running a dehumidifier 24/7 (or a heater), there's nothing adding heat to the room during lights off to trigger the thermostatically controlled ventilation fans. Consequently, humidity may spike during lights-off in the cooler times of the year if this is the case. If your cool season lights-off temps fall below 24C, you may indeed need to add a heater of some sort, probably electric, to hold temps up during lights-off. 



> how big tray u need to keep 10 mothers?


Without going into the room & measuring it, I'd guess it's about 300mm x 1200mm (roughly 1' x 4'). 



> And are you using first half of them when second half is growing up to be ready or u got 10 adult mums and taking few cuttings from every one?


I'm usually taking cuttings from 6-7 fully developed mums while there's 3-4 younger ones vegging up. I discard mums when they're about 3-4mos old (though that varies).


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## Swiezy (Apr 25, 2012)

It helped me a lot, but what about smell accumulating/escaping the room when exhaust is switched off for longer time? At "night" for example.

I'm concerning to make myself a corona discharge ozone generator if its neccessary to eliminate odour in full, simply because it's not cheap toy. Do you still use ozone generator on exhaust? Room will be pretty the same as yours.


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## trichome fiend (Apr 25, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> During lights off, ventilation is not as critical, but will keep humidity under control (30-50% is ideal). If you are depending upon heat to trigger thermostatically controlled fans, bear in mind that unless you are running a dehumidifier 24/7 (or a heater), there's nothing adding heat to the room during lights off to trigger the thermostatically controlled ventilation fans. Consequently, humidity may spike during lights-off in the cooler times of the year if this is the case.


^^^^ good stuff Al! ...I learned this the hard way a couple years back, bud rot all to hell from the RH raising when the AC stayed off during sleep hours....glad your still around bro!


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 26, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> It helped me a lot, but what about smell accumulating/escaping the room when exhaust is switched off for longer time? At "night" for example.


 There IS a way of keeping a fan running all the time, either at a low speed when the room is below the temperature setpoint of a thermostat and at full speed when above the setpoint:

View attachment 2140294

Simply parallel a motor speed controller with a thermostat. Set the MSC to a fairly low speed, enough to keep some air moving but not so low there's a chance of stalling the fan with some voltage applied (which might cause damage to the fan motor). Set the thermostat to switch on at 26C. When air temp exceeds 26C, the full line voltage will be applied to the fan motor- the thermostat provides a zero-ohm path around the MSC. Below the thermostat setpoint, its contacts are open and the current path will be through the MSC. The exhaust fan should be pushing air through a carbon filter. The net effect of an arrangement like this is to keep the grow room at a slightly negative air pressure all the time with exhausted air being pushed through a carbon filter. This will prevent unfiltered air containing scents from escaping the room. 



> I'm concerning to make myself a corona discharge ozone generator if its neccessary to eliminate odour in full, simply because it's not cheap toy. Do you still use ozone generator on exhaust? Room will be pretty the same as yours.


 I no longer use an ozone generator in the flowering room airmass. They're so effective, they'll de-scent resin while it's still on the plant- which isn't good for smoking qualities. 

If you employ an ozone generator, it must be downstream from the exhaust fan. In this case, it doesn't matter whether it's a UV or corona discharge type, but do be aware that corona discharge type ozone generators will produce nitric acid, which is corrosive to metals and harmful to plants.



trichome fiend said:


> ^^^^ good stuff Al! ...I learned this the hard way a couple years back, bud rot all to hell from the RH raising when the AC stayed off during sleep hours....glad your still around bro!


Thanks. 

A sulfur 'burner' (actually an evaporator) which runs 2x 10-15 mins in the flowering room airmass during lights-off will halt most moulds including powdery mildew & grey mould (botyritis, bud rot).


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 26, 2012)

OK, this is annoying.. images keep disappearing from my posts. 

This image should be appearing in the above post


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 26, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> OK, this is annoying.. images keep disappearing from my posts.
> 
> This image should be appearing in the above post


not showing for me here either ><


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 27, 2012)

one more time.


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## Al B. Fuct (Apr 30, 2012)

Hmm, OK... fine fellow at Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe fronted me a sample bag of Sure-To-Grow cubes. 



Will give these a go in the next batch going in to flower.


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## lagarrettBLUNT (Apr 30, 2012)

going to start a perpetual SOG here soon. Mother plants will be bagseed, G13 purple haze, and Killing Fields from sannies shop. Bagseeds started, ordering other seeds sometime this week. I'll be using a mini al b fuct version since i only have a closet. Haven't exactly figured how im gonna set that up yet.


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## Gyroscope (Apr 30, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Hmm, OK... fine fellow at Ye Olde Hydroe Shoppe fronted me a sample bag of Sure-To-Grow cubes.
> 
> View attachment 2147079
> 
> Will give these a go in the next batch going in to flower.



Good luck with those. I saw a guy try those and all his babies rotted. He then named it "Sure not to grow". He probably kept them too wet. I bet with your green thumb they will work great.....


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## Bigz2277 (Apr 30, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Good luck with those. I saw a guy try those and all his babies rotted. He then named it "Sure not to grow". He probably kept them too wet. I bet with your green thumb they will work great.....


These work ok in dwc. not sure about the watering them. Im just curious if they provide the same support that the hydro pellets provide?


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## ANC (May 1, 2012)

Al, I've potted my seedlings which was started in coarse vermiculite up into larger pots with coco peat. filling all the gaps.
I did mix the peat bick with a bit of the verm, but it seems to hold alot of water. It does drain reasonable fast, but I just get the impression that it holds on to too much.
I can only get hold of very fine coco, the plants were doing quite well (read my most impressive start so far) in the verm, but I read about some claims that verm is bad in the long term as a medium.
I have like 3 feedbags full of the vermiculite, so cost isn't an issue, I got it as a gift.

Do you have any experience with this?
What do you think about my concerns with the fine coco, am I being paranoid? I'd hate to see a grow that was going awesome up to now, go south due to a bad choice for medium.
At the moment I water them once a day, any more would apear to be courting trouble, as the pots stay quite heavy, even when drained.
It is a sativa so it would have to endure for quite a while (the medium).


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## Southtexasman87 (May 2, 2012)

Ok mr al, ( this is my first dwc that I have done)
iv kinda read thro the post I'm not going to read all 100+ pages but, I have a tote Rez at 5 gal with a 5" net pot rockwool and hydro pellets, I fell the Rez with 2gals protekt and dyna-grow for nutes, I use distilled water I noticed this weekend the roots had a lil slime on them I think ther was a lil light going thro the net cup so put so mylar over the net cup so no light gets in.. I can't seem to get my temps down in the day and it runs about 84-86 in the day and about 77 ish at night the Rez runs about 75-76 with lights on, rh about 40-50% I looked at the roots this morning and the slime is all over the roots now, I did us some h2o2 on the roots and they looked great for couple hours and the next morning it came back? I do have 35% that I can get I have 3%? At my house. I use cfls in a cab that's about 30"x17"x42" so it's an ok cab I have four lights 1-2700(150w eq) and 3-6500( 100w eq) in a DIY hood have a fan that moves about 250 cfm or so do the out take and a 4.5"hole with a fan on it for the intake and a 7" fan in the box to push air on the cfls cuz they get very warm! Sry if I'm kinda all over the place but I write as I think or I well forget so thanks to any one that can help!!!

The lil ladybud have be above ground since 4-5 and its about 3-4" tall with 4 nodes not including the seedling node and it's just a lil rounder then the bet pot I Belive it's stunned but idk cuz the inner nodes r filling out more?


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## richinweed (May 2, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> one more time.
> 
> View attachment 2141921


ive never seen it put that way before thats almost geious......infact im doing that tonight.lol


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## IjustSmoke (May 2, 2012)

Hey Al, I love all your information and advice. I was wondering if you can help with my grow https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/525310-2x4-ebb-flow-autoflower-tent.html


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## *BUDS (May 2, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Good luck with those. I saw a guy try those and all his babies rotted. He then named it "Sure not to grow". He probably kept them too wet. I bet with your green thumb they will work great.....


Maybe you could use the cubes as a substitute for the floc but not the fytocell ,Al ? less risk on the next batch.


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## Al B. Fuct (May 3, 2012)

hay folx. Harvesting time again for me, which naturally means I'm busier than a teenager in a cathouse on dollar day.

Bear with me, back in a few days.


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## lokie (May 3, 2012)

Happy Harvesting Al


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## Shwagbag (May 3, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> It really is outright fraud. No LED or array of them comes close to the light intensity produced by HPS, but several makers/sellers of the things claim they'll outperform a 400HPS. Ain't happening.


I toyed with some LEDS for flowering and it didn't work out well for me. They make fantastic veg lights though! The tech is getting better, but still not there yet. Some of them are insanely efficient at specific wavelengths relevant to photosynthesis. The par values are through the roof on the Spectras. That doesn't mean that they grow better buds though lol. The LEDs I tried were actually far too powerful at certain wavelengths which caused them to damage the foliage. Char fried sizzzzzzle. 

I hope the harvest goes well Al, keep the scissors sharp and your pipe packed!


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## bigwood111 (May 4, 2012)

Hey Al, now that you have everything dialed in with your cooltubes and everything else how are your yields? Have they increased?


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## mountainboy (May 7, 2012)

Hi Al, I just have a quick question. Will using h2o2 effect the ph of my water, I was thinking it would up the ph. I might be wrong but thought ph was short for (parts hydrogen) so I was thinking if I added hydrogen peroxide to my water it would make it more alkaline. I would just add some and test my water, but I'm waiting on my calibration solution to get here and cant test right now. Thank you in advance,I always look forward to your reply's. P.S. Hope you had a bountiful harvest, I'm sure you did my friend.


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## Shivaskunk (May 7, 2012)

mountain boy. it actually means potential hydrogen. Meaning basically an alkaline/acid spectrum where the ability to take in hydrogen is based on how alkaline or acid the medium is.

unfortunately adding h202 does nothing to the pH as h202 has a very unstable oxygen atom which is released leaving oxygen atoms and H20 which as you know is just water. you would have to seperate the 2 hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atom which takes a methos called electrolysis.

You really dont want pure oxygen or hydrogen in your grow room though. both are extremely combustable.


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## mountainboy (May 8, 2012)

Thank you Shivaskunk, I',m glad to hear it doesn't effect pH. I don't know why I was wondering about it, just a thought that crossed my mind and wanted an answer. I use nutrasheild 29% H2O2,Al uses 50%. damn 50%.I hit my skin a few times with 29 and ouch that shit burns,I can't imagine 50,it must burn twice as bad..lol.


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## ANC (May 9, 2012)

_I'm haveing a little issue with some of my plants.
It starts off at the bottom at the oldest leaves first.
It looks like tiny rustlike waterpaint marks at the serated tips of the leaves.
Eventualy looses chlorofil in those patches between the veins at the tips.
Then the leaves curl and pretty much die from the tip backwards

The plants seem generaly heatly, but the problem seems to be progressing. It seems mostly limited to the plants that gut nuteburned as seedlings with kelp. But the other plants also show some of this, but are bushy and healthy otherwise. I'd just rather get on top of this sooner rather than later.

I'm useing coco coir with a natural pH of about 6.8, and my nute solution has a pH of 6.3. Sadly I don't have access to your fancy coco specific nutes. I have been feeding a hydro nute wich I listed the composition of somewhere on here but the search seems screwed at the moment. I have been giving it kelp now for 2 days to see if I can hit the missing nutrient by accident. I don't realy like the kelp though as it attracts gnats and other flies.

I am going to start taking clones tommorrow. I grew the seedlings in straight coarse vermiculite, and they did awesomely, I couldn't stay ahead with repotting. One seems to suffer gigantism, but is a girl, I like big girls.
Two of the 9 plants seem to be males but its still very early, the ones I am clonening are showing pistols though, as I left them outdoors a few days to help sex... ironicaly the ones I kept under 18/6 are showing preflowers at the same time , so I just brought everything back in tonight. I'm starting small, with about 12 clones at a time. Would you, concidering the issues I seem to be haveing use verm or the coir as rooting medium?
_


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## ANC (May 9, 2012)

Fuckit, let me go grab a pic before the lights go out....


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## ANC (May 9, 2012)

Look at Gigantica, they were all planted the same day... seeds from the same nug.

P.S. my ballasts arrived, and I have one cooltube hood, busy remodeling washing room for flowering might get done tommorrow, allthough I need to get the ducting still for the hood.


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## tehgenoc1de (May 10, 2012)

Coco PH needs to be between 5.7 and 6.1 at the highest. Also if you're not supplementing some Calmag the coco sure does love to suck it out and not leave it for the plant.
Calcium deficiency looks similar to what you have.


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## ANC (May 10, 2012)

Thanks, yeah I'm not sure if it is calcium or potasium, they look so similar....

I hope the kelp can pull this straight, I see its got a bit of calcium in. N 53g/kg P 7g/kg K 17g/kg - Ca listed as .5g/kg

I have a bit of a problem with high pH tap water, I'm actualy amazed at how well the hydro ferts I use manage to pull it it down to the 6 range, normally 6.3 or 6.4. 
I've read that coco is more forgiving on the range than plain inorganic hydro media.


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## Shwagbag (May 10, 2012)

Looks like some larger containers wouldn't hurt either perhaps. I hope you figure it out.


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## ANC (May 11, 2012)

Well I think they can go a few more days in those ones, no roots pokeing out of holes yet.... probably been in those pots a week now.
Some will be picked as moms and the rest will go into the garden into soil, we don't have snow or frost here.

Might put the moms into soil for easier maintenance, but as I said, not too worried about pots yet, waterings are still more than 24h appart at this stage before its dryish.
I just hate how big plants get in large pots






Literaly had to get on a ladder to fit my last harvest in a picture... some swazi bagseed....


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## Al B. Fuct (May 11, 2012)

lagarrettBLUNT said:


> going to start a perpetual SOG here soon. Mother plants will be bagseed, G13 purple haze, and Killing Fields from sannies shop. Bagseeds started, ordering other seeds sometime this week. I'll be using a mini al b fuct version since i only have a closet. Haven't exactly figured how im gonna set that up yet.


 Eeek. Always build your op *before *you crack beans!

Closets are not always a good way to go unless you can find a way to dump warm, moist air effectively. Best way is cutting a hole in the closet ceiling & dumping air into an attic. 

Rotsaruck!



Gyroscope said:


> Good luck with those. I saw a guy try those and all his babies rotted. He then named it "Sure not to grow". He probably kept them too wet. I bet with your green thumb they will work great.....


 Actually, the 3 pots I have packed with the STG cubes are looking better than the others in straight Fytocell. I'm hopeful. As regards keeping them too wet- well, that'd be a trick! STG cubes hold very little water and probably can be watered 2-3x per lights-on cycle.



Bigz2277 said:


> These work ok in dwc. not sure about the watering them. Im just curious if they provide the same support that the hydro pellets provide?


 DWC does not employ any media at all.

As regards use of STG cubes vs clay pellets, STG cubes hold more water than pellets but don't have as much mass as pellets and probably would not make as good an anchor for plants. Nothing that can't be fixed by staking the plants up with some plastic dowel rods. 



ANC said:


> Al, I've potted my seedlings which was started in coarse vermiculite up into larger pots with coco peat. filling all the gaps.
> I did mix the peat bick with a bit of the verm, but it seems to hold alot of water. It does drain reasonable fast, but I just get the impression that it holds on to too much.
> I can only get hold of very fine coco, the plants were doing quite well (read my most impressive start so far) in the verm, but I read about some claims that verm is bad in the long term as a medium.
> I have like 3 feedbags full of the vermiculite, so cost isn't an issue, I got it as a gift.
> ...


 Vermiculite is a pretty good medium in flood systems; it's inorganic, meaning it'll work OK with H2O2. I'm not a fan of organic media i.e. coco peat & coir as it tends to break down into bits when exposed to H2O2. Fragments can get stuck in pumps, which can have disastrous consequences. Vermiculite has a rather high water holding capacity, so depending upon the size of the plants in it, can provide a good reservoir in case of pump/timer/etc. failure. Nothing wrong with vermiculite as a medium for use from cloning to harvest.



Southtexasman87 said:


> Ok mr al, ( this is my first dwc that I have done)
> iv kinda read thro the post I'm not going to read all 100+ pages but, I have a tote Rez at 5 gal with a 5" net pot rockwool and hydro pellets, I fell the Rez with 2gals protekt and dyna-grow for nutes, I use distilled water I noticed this weekend the roots had a lil slime on them I think ther was a lil light going thro the net cup so put so mylar over the net cup so no light gets in.. I can't seem to get my temps down in the day and it runs about 84-86 in the day and about 77 ish at night the Rez runs about 75-76 with lights on, rh about 40-50% I looked at the roots this morning and the slime is all over the roots now, I did us some h2o2 on the roots and they looked great for couple hours and the next morning it came back? I do have 35% that I can get I have 3%? At my house. I use cfls in a cab that's about 30"x17"x42" so it's an ok cab I have four lights 1-2700(150w eq) and 3-6500( 100w eq) in a DIY hood have a fan that moves about 250 cfm or so do the out take and a 4.5"hole with a fan on it for the intake and a 7" fan in the box to push air on the cfls cuz they get very warm! Sry if I'm kinda all over the place but I write as I think or I well forget so thanks to any one that can help!!!
> 
> The lil ladybud have be above ground since 4-5 and its about 3-4" tall with 4 nodes not including the seedling node and it's just a lil rounder then the bet pot I Belive it's stunned but idk cuz the inner nodes r filling out more?


 The slime on your roots is a pathogen infection, probably pythium. It's cured by regular application of 50% grade H2O2 at 1ml/L, every 3-4 days. If you have 35%, use 1.7ml/L. Do not use pharmacy grade 3%- it's not cost effective & contains stabilisers which are not good for plants. I don't know if the nutes you're using are organic or not. If they are organic, you cannot use H2O2. Use a good quality inorganic nutrient from Canna, GH, etc. CFLs are OK for cloning but are a waste of time for flowering plants. Might get away with maintaining mother plants under CFLs but you will not get vigorous mother plant growth with them.



richinweed said:


> ive never seen it put that way before thats almost geious......infact im doing that tonight.lol


 Whaddya mean ALMOST genius? 

Thanks for the compliment. 

It's a good way to keep scents from escaping your op as the exhaust fan runs constantly, pushing air through your carbon filter, although at very low speed when temps are below the setpoint of the thermostat. 



IjustSmoke said:


> Hey Al, I love all your information and advice. I was wondering if you can help with my grow https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/525310-2x4-ebb-flow-autoflower-tent.html


 What's your question?



*BUDS said:


> Maybe you could use the cubes as a substitute for the floc but not the fytocell ,Al ? less risk on the next batch.


 Possibly. I'm using the STG on its own in 3 pots for now.



Shwagbag said:


> I toyed with some LEDS for flowering and it didn't work out well for me. They make fantastic veg lights though! The tech is getting better, but still not there yet. Some of them are insanely efficient at specific wavelengths relevant to photosynthesis. The par values are through the roof on the Spectras. That doesn't mean that they grow better buds though lol. The LEDs I tried were actually far too powerful at certain wavelengths which caused them to damage the foliage. Char fried sizzzzzzle.
> 
> I hope the harvest goes well Al, keep the scissors sharp and your pipe packed!


 Thanks.

I tend to take PAR values with a pound or two of salt as they are often used as a salesmans' excuse to get ppl to buy substandard lights

I've never seen a decent flowering op with LEDs. Not one, ever. If all you need to do is veg some mums, you can do that much more cheaply with fluoros. 

As regards flowering, there's just no substitute for highly cost-effective & powerful HPS. They're SO cheap & universally known to work well that I wonder why anyone dicks around with anything else. 



bigwood111 said:


> Hey Al, now that you have everything dialed in with your cooltubes and everything else how are your yields? Have they increased?


 You bet. Yields are always better when you can control temps precisely. My flowering room runs at 25C +/- 0.5C. Before the cooltubes, temps would occasionally wander up to 27-28C (or worse depending upon air intake temps).



mountainboy said:


> Hi Al, I just have a quick question. Will using h2o2 effect the ph of my water, I was thinking it would up the ph. I might be wrong but thought ph was short for (parts hydrogen) so I was thinking if I added hydrogen peroxide to my water it would make it more alkaline. I would just add some and test my water, but I'm waiting on my calibration solution to get here and cant test right now. Thank you in advance,I always look forward to your reply's. P.S. Hope you had a bountiful harvest, I'm sure you did my friend.


 pH stands for 'potential hydrogen.' Doesn't shift the pH of my tanks at all.



Shivaskunk said:


> mountain boy. it actually means potential hydrogen. Meaning basically an alkaline/acid spectrum where the ability to take in hydrogen is based on how alkaline or acid the medium is.
> 
> unfortunately adding h202 does nothing to the pH as h202 has a very unstable oxygen atom which is released leaving oxygen atoms and H20 which as you know is just water. you would have to seperate the 2 hydrogen atoms from the oxygen atom which takes a method called electrolysis.


 Yep.



mountainboy said:


> Thank you Shivaskunk, I',m glad to hear it doesn't effect pH. I don't know why I was wondering about it, just a thought that crossed my mind and wanted an answer. I use nutrasheild 29% H2O2,Al uses 50%. damn 50%.I hit my skin a few times with 29 and ouch that shit burns,I can't imagine 50,it must burn twice as bad..lol.


 High strength H2O2 is definitely a hazardous chemical. Smart cookies use rubber gloves & eye protection when dealing with the stuff. 



ANC said:


> _I'm haveing a little issue with some of my plants.
> It starts off at the bottom at the oldest leaves first.
> It looks like tiny rustlike waterpaint marks at the serated tips of the leaves.
> Eventualy looses chlorofil in those patches between the veins at the tips.
> ...


 As previously said, I'm not a fan of coco coir. If I had to choose between coir & vermiculite, I'd use vermiculite. 

Your symptoms sound an awful lot like overwatering. pH is way wrong, too. You're looking for 5.8. 

Woudn't use kelp extract or any other organics in a hydroponic system. Incompatible with H2O2. 

Bringing plants that have been outdoors into an indoor grow room is just asking for trouble. You will almost certainly bring bugs and/or pathogens into the grow op.


> Look at Gigantica, they were all planted the same day... seeds from the same nug.
> 
> P.S. my ballasts arrived, and I have one cooltube hood, busy remodeling washing room for flowering might get done tommorrow, allthough I need to get the ducting still for the hood.


 I think the spots are being caused by the pH being too high.



tehgenoc1de said:


> Coco PH needs to be between 5.7 and 6.1 at the highest. Also if you're not supplementing some Calmag the coco sure does love to suck it out and not leave it for the plant.
> Calcium deficiency looks similar to what you have.


Possibly, although I think correcting the pH to 5.8 should sort it out. Municipal tapwater usually has enough Ca & Mg for hydroponic growing.



ANC said:


> Thanks, yeah I'm not sure if it is calcium or potasium, they look so similar....
> 
> I hope the kelp can pull this straight, I see its got a bit of calcium in. N 53g/kg P 7g/kg K 17g/kg - Ca listed as .5g/kg
> 
> ...


Most good quality nutes have pH buffers that will set the pH pretty close to 5.8 when you've mixed for an appropriate strength.



ANC said:


> Well I think they can go a few more days in those ones, no roots pokeing out of holes yet.... probably been in those pots a week now.
> Some will be picked as moms and the rest will go into the garden into soil, we don't have snow or frost here.
> 
> Might put the moms into soil for easier maintenance, but as I said, not too worried about pots yet, waterings are still more than 24h appart at this stage before its dryish.
> ...


Tall plants are not caused by big pots- that's caused by vegging before you flower. If you don't want tall plants, don't veg before flowering.


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## ANC (May 11, 2012)

Thanks Al, I'll try to get the pH down a little more. Our tap water has a pH of about 9.2 so I was pretty greatfull for the nutes pulling it to 6.3.
I'm also sure there should be enough calcium in the water alone, as we do get scale buildup in the shower and kettle, for some reason my ppm meter says its only 55ppm though, don't trust the meter, even though its new.
*How do you feel about foliar feeding of Epsom salt, how regular would one do it, and for how long would one keep it up? Been seeing it mentioned as a solution for calcium lockout/deficiency.*

Sog will be done in 2L bottles, I have nice deep crates that can hold 23 of them. So, batches will be about 12 plants each. So far I've been watering manualy so no pathogen issues yet, but I have timers, and pumps and stuff. If anything I tend to be somewhat on the cautious side with watering less rather than more. I manualy submerge the pots in a slightly larger container, then lift them on stands to drain out, after which they are good for 30 to 36 hours. I have quite a bit of the coarse vermiculite in there to help with oxygen availability. The dipping and lifting does help remove alot of the small particulate though, but I will rig up a filtering system for the pump when I use it.

Being in a country with no legal framework for use, means no access to hydroshops, (well technicaly there are one or 2 but they are a ripoff, and you are lucky if you can get some bulbs and hydroton from them). I guess I will go the import route once I know how much nutes I need to order to have a full regimen for a 3 month period, as I can't run to the shop for a refill.

Even with the calcium problem on some of the plants they are honestly healthier looking than my soil plants most years. Only learning about proper pH and nutrients now after a few grows.

P.S. the big pots thing was with reference to growing outdoors. I am thinking going to larger pots now will just make the pots retain water longer. Clones will all go straight to sog with no vegging.

Sadly I didn't follow your advice for haveing everthying ready before I started. I was busy emptying out the new flowering room till 11 last night, all kinds of crap in there. Not much space tough, 3.6' x 5.7' by 8' high.

Gotta go buy pipes now for moveing the taps in the back, as the washing machine is hooked up to it, as well as its drain pipe... Never done plumbing before, but willing to give it a go. suppose I should be happy to have watter and drainage in the room... Was an old servant's room.


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## TillthedayiDIE420 (May 14, 2012)

> Originally Posted by *TillthedayiDIE420*
> I would have to agree with ya there, but at the same time i disagree my friend.. This is not to create an argument... lol For $1000 bucks i bought a spectra 500... last year... At the same time i bought a 600w Lumatek Digital Ballast with a HORTILUX bulb... my little LED light not only out grows my 600watt lol...
> 
> If you have plants doing better under LED than a 600, there's something very wrong with the 600 or the plant under it.
> ...


Its just 4 plants under my LED produce around 600grams at under 600 watts draw. The HPS is fine and the plants are great, Just the cost of my HPS will be more then my LED very soon with no difference in yield really... ( same strain )
And yes the magnetic ballasts are cheap but bulbs are not... 100+ for Efficient bulbs..
I'm not praising LED, Nor shunning HID. I am saying i agree to disagree, LED and HID are almost on the same page... If it were not for the pricks praying on every ones cash, You would see it too. 
There is only one LED company i trust. Everything else has not shown results. You all take your false info from people who think they know how to grow with LED. Its the same difference. You can put a LED light to close... You will burn your plant... The &#956;mol's from a LED can exceed that of a HID, So far i am using the Spectra 500 which is a 300watt draw with &#956;mol ratings around the 600w HID range.... If i had a 600w LED light that was 600watts draw from the wall... It would out preform any HID of the same wattage.. ( considering who makes it lol ) 
To get down into it there is more math then you think when it comes to lighting, Its not just a plug and play like most think. Once you fine tune and really tweak your grow room, You can start fucking around with shit and increase your yield even more. 
Also I enjoy the smoke of a LED better maybe its all in my head  

Cheers
ttdid420


----------



## Al B. Fuct (May 14, 2012)

ANC said:


> Thanks Al, I'll try to get the pH down a little more. Our tap water has a pH of about 9.2 so I was pretty greatfull for the nutes pulling it to 6.3.
> I'm also sure there should be enough calcium in the water alone, as we do get scale buildup in the shower and kettle, for some reason my ppm meter says its only 55ppm though, don't trust the meter, even though its new.


Have you calibrated the pH meter with (at least) 4.0 & 7.0 reference solutions? 9.2 is pretty high. However, I'd expect a rather high pH if you are seeing scale buildups. I would also expect a much higher TDS figure than 55ppm for the tapwater. You can get reference solutions for the TDS meter to test & see if it is telling you the truth. 


> *How do you feel about foliar feeding of Epsom salt, how regular would one do it, and for how long would one keep it up? Been seeing it mentioned as a solution for calcium lockout/deficiency.*


I've never foliar fed a plant in an indoor grow op. Never had any need to do so. Moreover, wetting down foliage may assist in formation of powdery mildew- indoor ops naturally tend toward high humidity anyway. Your plants should be able to obtain all the nutrients they need via roots; about the only time I can think of that foliar feeding would become necessary is when there's root system damage. From the pix you've posted, I'd say your plants are in pretty good shape- I wouldn't be too worried. Correcting the pH to 5.8 should make your new growth look better- but don't expect old growth to change appearance. 



> Sog will be done in 2L bottles, I have nice deep crates that can hold 23 of them. So, batches will be about 12 plants each. So far I've been watering manualy so no pathogen issues yet, but I have timers, and pumps and stuff. If anything I tend to be somewhat on the cautious side with watering less rather than more. I manualy submerge the pots in a slightly larger container, then lift them on stands to drain out, after which they are good for 30 to 36 hours. I have quite a bit of the coarse vermiculite in there to help with oxygen availability. The dipping and lifting does help remove alot of the small particulate though, but I will rig up a filtering system for the pump when I use it.


I really have to encourage you to find an automated way of watering. Automation with pumps & timers will lead to more consistent results- it will also prevent the possibility of damaging plants by moving them around frequently.



> Being in a country with no legal framework for use, means no access to hydroshops, (well technicaly there are one or 2 but they are a ripoff, and you are lucky if you can get some bulbs and hydroton from them). I guess I will go the import route once I know how much nutes I need to order to have a full regimen for a 3 month period, as I can't run to the shop for a refill.


Poor you, sorry to hear it. There's no legal cannabis framework in Australia either, but there's about 200 hydro shops in Sydney alone. 

Good luck!




TillthedayiDIE420 said:


> Its just 4 plants under my LED produce around 600grams at under 600 watts draw. The HPS is fine and the plants are great, Just the cost of my HPS will be more then my LED very soon with no difference in yield really...


I maintain that there's no way any LED light will keep production pace with a 600HPS. I strongly recommend against anyone buying LEDs for growing cannabis. A typical 600HPS will pound out 95,000 lumens and will always produce excellent results over a 12 sq ft area. I've seen 600HPS kits including ballast, lamp tube, reflector & socket for as low as $150-160. You just can't beat the performance for the price.


----------



## ANC (May 15, 2012)

Thanks for the feedback Al. I have to say, it seems the calcium issue is realy mostly visible on one plant (of 9, oops sorry, 7, I trashed two boys yesterday).
I've been pHing the feeds to 5.8 now with a little lemon juice. Yeah will get proper stuff when I order. Found a sorta local place that stocks calmag, will only get it next weekend when people from that side of the cape comes over for my birthday.

I'm realy knackered and its only 8 in the morning, been working on the little grow room for 2 days now. Washing machine and tumble drier, out, shelf out, tap and drain moved, 80% of the vinyl tiles removed (they were in there when we moved in about '80. Today, I will paint it out in white, and add the new novilon flooring, and hopefully complete the electrics. Clones are still happy and alive since thursday (first time I don't kill a clone in 2 days). I just stuck them in a 1/3rds perlite, fine verm and coco mix. Humidity is kinda high (70) due to winter temps going into the mid 10's Celcius overnight where they are now, so no domes, I just propped some cake covers sligtly over them to protect them from the fan's draft. 

I do some LED design work part time. To get the equivalent to 95000 lum, you will need about 50 $10 20W Cree LED's (not spectrum optimised), and of course the drivers for them, we are looking at say $1000, then you need heatsinking for the LED's, so add another shit tonne. I honsetly don't see how anyone could take panels with 3W LEDs seriously, The big LED's will at best put out about 1500 to 1700l each into a 120 degree field (only usefull quality)

Might work well in a cabinet configuration where they are build into the aluminium walls which would in turn have watercooling on the back and a small radiator on top. We are talking Michael Jackson rich before you look at doing shit like that. And you will NEVER recover the investment.


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## Al B. Fuct (May 15, 2012)

ANC said:


> Thanks for the feedback Al. I have to say, it seems the calcium issue is realy mostly visible on one plant (of 9, oops sorry, 7, I trashed two boys yesterday).
> I've been pHing the feeds to 5.8 now with a little lemon juice. Yeah will get proper stuff when I order. Found a sorta local place that stocks calmag, will only get it next weekend when people from that side of the cape comes over for my birthday.


Glad you'll be getting proper phosphoric acid based pHDown. Lemon juice will have pathogens in it, will cause you grief. You probably don't need CalMag. 

Also glad the room's coming along. Don't work so hard & long that you start doing crap work, tho. 



> I do some LED design work part time. To get the equivalent to 95000 lum, you will need about 50 $10 20W Cree LED's (not spectrum optimised), and of course the drivers for them, we are looking at say $1000, then you need heatsinking for the LED's, so add another shit tonne. I honsetly don't see how anyone could take panels with 3W LEDs seriously, The big LED's will at best put out about 1500 to 1700l each into a 120 degree field (only usefull quality)
> 
> Might work well in a cabinet configuration where they are build into the aluminium walls which would in turn have watercooling on the back and a small radiator on top. We are talking Michael Jackson rich before you look at doing shit like that. And you will NEVER recover the investment.


Yep, all that. You KNOW the HPS will give solid yields. It's just too cheap & easy to whack up an HPS in a cooltube to yutz around with LEDs.


----------



## ANC (May 15, 2012)

Well its the lemon juice from bottles type , but I hear ya. Went to objectively look at the plants, and they seem pretty healthy, except for the spotted runt.

Never, it will be an upgrade if anything, The catch is I've never done plumbing or novilon before, but youtube is handy. Still didn't prevent the high pressure water fountain in the room though. Man what fun!

I'm pretty meticulous though, believe in geting the right toolsand doing the job properly. Just fucking slow because I'm a little disabled, and recovering from a stupid heart attack.

First child due in exactly one month, shitload of work to be done, but friends ganged up invited themselves to a help fix the place up party next weekend. I swear at his rate I will sleep through the birth. I don't have a working surface in my body that doesn't hurt, burn or sting. The things we do for good medicine.


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## Rick Ratlin (May 19, 2012)

Al, I'm switching up my room from your cool tube set up, but two 600 watt hps. Each lamp is over two 2'x3' trays. I'm switching over to a sealed room with CO2 and A/C, and running 1000 watt hps instead of 600. Do you think I'd be fine with each 1k over two 3'x3' trays. I've always used the cool tubes, but we naturally have high temps and humidity, so its better, and cheaper to run sealed. What height do you recommend keeping the adjust a wing (without the cool tube) above the canopy? Also, by running CO2 in a perpetual op, should I just set the monitor for natural outside ambient CO2 levels?


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## foreverflyhi (May 20, 2012)

sup al, so im not trying to argue with u, i respect your comments, and i hope you respect mine.
i just want to say that i disagree with alot you had to say about organics and chemicals ferts, as well as your comments about LED. 

Organics should be the only way we should be growing ANYTHING IN THIS WORLD(according to mother nature), indoor or outdoor, tomatoes, basil, indica, corn, it should all be grown organic, not only the QUALITY IS MUCH BETTER, but it helps us sustain this world, your threads name is "it's a fuct world" well yes it is if we keep using all these unsustainable methods to grow cannabis(or any other plant) with synthetics. Ive seen hydroponic grows done with raw organics and not only the quanity and quality was there, but it was as clean then any other grow done with chemicals.

as for RO water and tap water, last time i checked (sustainablity 101) most tap water is not just high on ppm because of broken down cal and mag, its much more then that! the gov is putting some of the worst chemicals known to man like _Fluoride_ and countless other chemicals that we dont know about, why on earth would u want to drink that let alone grow cannabis with it?
a big part of me wants to say hydroponic weed is just straight up wack, ive yet to smoke any hydro that can compare too organics, HOWEVER, i kno thats not the case, i kno somewhere out there, theirs some mad scientist growing some crazy ass shit that is prob better then organics, lol (IM SURE AT THE COST OF DESTROYING MOTHER NATURE)
now as for LEDS, i kno this is a HOT TOPIC, i just hope that the non believers, should at least acknowledge that their are people out there (like myself) growing some of the DANKEST ORGANIC LED HERB THAT TOPS ANY CHEMICAL HPS HERB ANYDAY, ESPECIALLY IN THIS FUCT UP WORLD!


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## Gyroscope (May 21, 2012)

foreverflyhi said:


> sup al, so im not trying to argue with u, i respect your comments, and i hope you respect mine.
> i just want to say that i disagree with alot you had to say about organics and chemicals ferts, as well as your comments ......



Hey guy,
Al has been doing this a long time and has helped a lot of people over the years. There is no way in hell that you and your LED toys will ever out produce Als' system. And besides that they are way to pricey for no more than they do. You are out of line to come to this thread with this BS.


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## ANC (May 21, 2012)

So why not open your own thread with step by step instructions like AL's?


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## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2012)

ANC said:


> Well its the lemon juice from bottles type , but I hear ya. Went to objectively look at the plants, and they seem pretty healthy, except for the spotted runt.


 If the lemon juice has been pasteurised, it'll cause less grief. Should use the phosphoric acid stuff anyway, provided you can get it. 


> Never, it will be an upgrade if anything, The catch is I've never done plumbing or novilon before, but youtube is handy. Still didn't prevent the high pressure water fountain in the room though. Man what fun!


 You have a decidedly masochistic idea of fun. 



> I'm pretty meticulous though, believe in geting the right toolsand doing the job properly. Just fucking slow because I'm a little disabled, and recovering from a stupid heart attack.


 Well, that sucks a lot. Hope you're OK. 



> First child due in exactly one month, shitload of work to be done, but friends ganged up invited themselves to a help fix the place up party next weekend. I swear at his rate I will sleep through the birth. I don't have a working surface in my body that doesn't hurt, burn or sting. The things we do for good medicine.


 Indeed. Glad you have good friends. Hope baby & mum are healthy & well. 



Rick Ratlin said:


> Al, I'm switching up my room from your cool tube set up, but two 600 watt hps. Each lamp is over two 2'x3' trays. I'm switching over to a sealed room with CO2 and A/C, and running 1000 watt hps instead of 600. Do you think I'd be fine with each 1k over two 3'x3' trays. I've always used the cool tubes, but we naturally have high temps and humidity, so its better, and cheaper to run sealed. What height do you recommend keeping the adjust a wing (without the cool tube) above the canopy? Also, by running CO2 in a perpetual op, should I just set the monitor for natural outside ambient CO2 levels?


 1000HPS will work fine over 2x 3'x3'. That's pretty much what I have here; my trays are 900x900mm. Cooltubes are pretty good at trapping longwave IR, so lamp-to-plant spacing can be pretty short, around 200mm with 1000s in cooltubes. Mind, with the lamp that low, you'll tend to get shadowing on the plants in the far ends of the trays. About 300-350mm above nearest plant tops is about right. 

Sealed is fine but expensive. If the ambient air you have to draw in is going to be above 26C, you pretty much have no choice but to run sealed with aircon & CO2, though. You'll probably find a way of recouping the expense. 

If you're going to run CO2, definitely run it above normal atmospheric CO2 concentration, which if I recall correctly is about 350ppm. If you bump it up to 1000-1500ppm & increase ambient temps to about 28-29C, you should see about a 25% increase in yield. 



foreverflyhi said:


> sup al, so im not trying to argue with u, i respect your comments, and i hope you respect mine.
> i just want to say that i disagree with alot you had to say about organics and chemicals ferts, as well as your comments about LED.


That's OK, you're entitled to be wrong if you like. 



Gyroscope said:


> Hey guy,
> Al has been doing this a long time and has helped a lot of people over the years. There is no way in hell that you and your LED toys will ever out produce Als' system. And besides that they are way to pricey for no more than they do. You are out of line to come to this thread with this BS.


Sometimes the best rebuttal to goobers is to simply let them let it all hang out. FFhi has certainly done that. 



ANC said:


> So why not open your own thread with step by step instructions like AL's?


Stoney McDoper already has such an advice column... https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/10004-how-not-grow-dope.html


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## Taurich (May 21, 2012)

foreverflyhi said:


> sup al, so im not trying to argue with u


Then maybe you SHOULDN'T POAST ALL IN CAPS.
Or imply people that don't totally agree with you are idiots

---


Anyway, hey Al this thread is just a treasure chest of great info. Thanks for keeping it updated, some of us new growers are keen to learn, and it's experienced vets like yourself passing info on that makes sure growing techniques don't go backwards
I've only read to page 8 or so and my eyes have started to bleed, so sorry if this has been asked already, but how much cal-mag should I be adding to my rainwater? I'm using the same nutes (canna vega) as you, with no additives bar superthrive.

Also any chance you would be able to point me towards a hydro store in vic that might stock fytocell?

And lastly, have you got any experience with bushmaster? I know you don't really veg your plants, but I've already gone and got a dedicated veg box, so I'm wondering what you thought about vegging for a while, pruning lower third SOG style, and then using the bushmaster to inhibit stretch when they're moved to 12/12. Figured this might turn out the same style of plants you get, but bigger due to the extra few weeks of growth.

I ask because I already have the bushmaster


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## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2012)

Taurich said:


> Then maybe you SHOULDN'T POAST ALL IN CAPS.
> Or imply people that don't totally agree with you are idiots
> 
> ---


I liked it when he ran off into fluoride fucknuttery. Neighbours 3 doors down could hear me laughing. Did my 'tree-huggin' hippie crap' Cartman imitation (which is really quite good, you know). 



> Anyway, hey Al this thread is just a treasure chest of great info. Thanks for keeping it updated, some of us new growers are keen to learn, and it's experienced vets like yourself passing info on that makes sure growing techniques don't go backwards



Thanks. 



> I've only read to page 8 or so and my eyes have started to bleed, so sorry if this has been asked already, but how much cal-mag should I be adding to my rainwater? I'm using the same nutes (canna vega) as you, with no additives bar superthrive.


Hasn't been asked. Use enough CalMag to bring the TDS to about 100-150ppm. 



> Also any chance you would be able to point me towards a hydro store in vic that might stock fytocell?


Unfortunately not. You may have to ring around a bit. Hold that thought, though. If Sure-To-Grow 1" cubes turn out to be economical to use, I may be revising my general advice on use of Fytocell. I have 3 plants running in STG at the moment and they are outperforming all the others in the tray which are in plain Fytocell. AND STG is much tidier to use- no little bits all over the place like Fytocell. 



> And lastly, have you got any experience with bushmaster?


Nope. 



> I know you don't really veg your plants, but I've already gone and got a dedicated veg box, so I'm wondering what you thought about vegging for a while, pruning lower third SOG style, and then using the bushmaster to inhibit stretch when they're moved to 12/12. Figured this might turn out the same style of plants you get, but bigger due to the extra few weeks of growth.
> 
> I ask because I already have the bushmaster


I can tell you right now that vegging before flowering will give you tall plants, where the lower buds yield poorly due to distance from the lamp. Use the veg box for mothers.

Rotsaruck.


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## Al B. Fuct (May 21, 2012)

Been nosing around on Bushmaster; apparently it does work for stopping vertical growth, but it's a bit pricey. If you just don't veg before flowering, you can omit it and speed up the process as there is no time in the growth cycle spent on vegging.


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## trichome fiend (May 21, 2012)

...I went and checked on *foreverflyhi*'s journal...look what I found.


foreverflyhi said:


> fuck!!!! i just flushed all my plants because im suspecting problems in the soil, and after reading the ph, all of them are fucked~!!!!! sb 1, 2 and 3 are low in ph, aboyut 6.3 and sb4 5 and nl bb are about 7.2 wtf!!!!!! im soo stressed out, im thinking of cutting production and starting over.


...dude, this proves you need to stop thinking your experiments are better than lifelong growers and knocking their techniques....if you knew organics you'd know that pH doesn't mean dick, _when in organics_, the microbes takes care of everything for you...why in the hell would you flush soil _*unless*_ your putting synthetic fertz into it ???...your not going to wash the bat shit out of it, or whatever your using.... 
...and you should keep your LED's for your flashlights.


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## Rick Ratlin (May 21, 2012)

Great info, many thanks Al! What are your thoughts on CO2 in perpetual ops? Some say too high CO2 levels late in flowering lower terpene production. I don't have pm issues, but I still like to run the sulfur burner just like you, and I swear (without any scientific backing) that it helps the final taste, and as a bonus kills the bad stuff in the room. Anybody out there run CO2 in a perpetual op like Al's? Also Al, since I'll be taking off my cool tubes this summer, what height do you recommend hanging the adjust a wing over the canopy without a cool tube? It's a 600 Watt now, but will be a 1000 watt come summer time. 1k covers two 3x3 trays. Thanks Al!


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## matatan (May 22, 2012)

hey Al i read your 2weeks thread few months ago and remember someone asked what im going to ask , just forgot your explanation..

i plan on starting a 3light rotation, each 600 over 3x3table, starting from regular seed. question is should i top ~day 15 early to begin multiple tops as early as possible or wait till ~day30 and use that 'top' as the clone to determine sex or throw the mom in into flower and grow out the clones as moms, to determine sex AND get a decent yield ?

i plan on starting 20seeds, will i be overwhelmed with that amount? my reasoning is that not all 20 are going to crack, and not all of the remaining are going to be female. leaving me with about 10 hopefuls to select from. selecting, shouldnt i flower these entirely to make my pick? cloning just to determine sex doesnt tell me what colors, smells, bud shapes, or any idea of yield...

also iv been growing in coco for 2yrs now. love it. will i be fine in a flood and drain setup using 8in pots filled w coco? will i have to hand water the top at all? 

thanx!


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## bigwood111 (May 22, 2012)

I would definitely read the whole thread again. Quite a bit of info and it sounds like you're not sure what you're doing.


matatan said:


> hey Al i read your 2weeks thread few months ago and remember someone asked what im going to ask , just forgot your explanation..
> 
> i plan on starting a 3light rotation, each 600 over 3x3table, starting from regular seed. question is should i top ~day 15 early to begin multiple tops as early as possible or wait till ~day30 and use that 'top' as the clone to determine sex or throw the mom in into flower and grow out the clones as moms, to determine sex AND get a decent yield ?
> 
> ...


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## Al B. Fuct (May 22, 2012)

Rick Ratlin said:


> Great info, many thanks Al! What are your thoughts on CO2 in perpetual ops? Some say too high CO2 levels late in flowering lower terpene production.


Haven't heard anything about that myself. 



> I don't have pm issues, but I still like to run the sulfur burner just like you, and I swear (without any scientific backing) that it helps the final taste, and as a bonus kills the bad stuff in the room.


There's an equally good chance that you don't have any powdery mildew because you're running a sulfur 'burner.' Sulfur 'burners' put so very little sulfur into the airmass that I would not expect it to alter taste at all. I put about 60g of sulfur into my 'burner' about 3-4 years ago and have not had to add any. However, the tiny amounts of sulfur vapour that float around the flowering area are clearly sufficient to halt powdery mildew entirely. 



> Also Al, since I'll be taking off my cool tubes this summer, what height do you recommend hanging the adjust a wing over the canopy without a cool tube? It's a 600 Watt now, but will be a 1000 watt come summer time. 1k covers two 3x3 trays. Thanks Al!


I would not disconnect cooltubes for any reason, especially not in summer. 

Plant top clearance for a 1000HPS without a cooltube should be about 450-500mm.




matatan said:


> hey Al i read your 2weeks thread few months ago and remember someone asked what im going to ask , just forgot your explanation..
> 
> i plan on starting a 3light rotation, each 600 over 3x3table, starting from regular seed. question is should i top ~day 15 early to begin multiple tops as early as possible or wait till ~day30 and use that 'top' as the clone to determine sex or throw the mom in into flower and grow out the clones as moms, to determine sex AND get a decent yield ?
> 
> ...


You cannot SoG from seed. Waste of time & money on power bills. Sex the plants first, grow out some mums from the females then take cuttings from the mums to provide plants to flower. 

I'm not a fan of any organically-based media. Coco coir has a tendency to break down & fragment when exposed to H2O2. Loose bits may plug the tray drain & may lodge in pumps. Don't say you haven't been warned.



bigwood111 said:


> I would definitely read the whole thread again. Quite a bit of info and it sounds like you're not sure what you're doing.


Yep.


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## pdillo (May 22, 2012)

Pretty interested in seeing what those STG cubes do, I never paid any mind to them before


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## Rick Ratlin (May 23, 2012)

Al, which sure to grow cubes are you using? I checked out their website. Lots of different products. Are you using the stg hail?


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## Al B. Fuct (May 23, 2012)

pdillo said:


> Pretty interested in seeing what those STG cubes do, I never paid any mind to them before


Working pretty well so far. The three STG trial plants are all doing better than the others in Fytocell. However, I tend to have problems with rosetting (stunting, failure of stems to elongate) this time of year as we head into winter. I suspect my lights-off temps are too low, touching 16C at the moment. Need to isolate the cause, but haven't yet. 



Rick Ratlin said:


> Al, which sure to grow cubes are you using? I checked out their website. Lots of different products. Are you using the stg hail?


Yes, 'Hail' 1" cubes.


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## pdillo (May 23, 2012)

ha, heading into winter! those qwazy southern hemisphere seasons&#8230;


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## Al B. Fuct (May 23, 2012)

pdillo said:


> ha, heading into winter! those qwazy southern hemisphere seasons&#8230;


That's not the only qwazy thing about the southern hemisphere. Stargazing northern hemi natives will immediately notice that the moon appears rotated about 60 degrees (depending upon your original northerly latitude & southerly latitude perspectives) counterclockwise. The moon (and sun, for that matter) traverses an arc across the northern sky, effectively from right to left, as opposed to the left to right apparent motion as viewed from the northern hemisphere. And it gets weirder when looking at constellations visible from both hemispheres...

So, back on topic. Very happy so far with the STG Hail 1" cubes. 



Unlike rockwool, STG cubes are safe to handle without gloves. STG does not escape pot drain holes & make a mess in trays & tanks like Fytocell. You can keep Fytocell from escaping pots by putting a thin layer of rockwool floc in the bottom of the pots, but this alters the drainage & water holding characters of Fytocell. STG does not hold as much water as Fytocell, so it can be flooded 2x (or more when plants have gotten large) per lights-on cycle. I have yet to run plants through an entire flowering cycle in the stuff yet, but so far, it looks really promising. 

Don't know how much the stuff costs, but even if it's a bit more expensive than Fytocell, it'd be worth it for the ease of handling & cleanliness factors alone.


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## bigwood111 (May 24, 2012)

STG is very pricey. I think it would cost at least twice as much if not three times as much as the fytocell.


Al B. Fuct said:


> That's not the only qwazy thing about the southern hemisphere. Stargazing northern hemi natives will immediately notice that the moon appears rotated about 60 degrees (depending upon your original northerly latitude & southerly latitude perspectives) counterclockwise. The moon (and sun, for that matter) traverses an arc across the northern sky, effectively from right to left, as opposed to the left to right apparent motion as viewed from the northern hemisphere. And it gets weirder when looking at constellations visible from both hemispheres...
> 
> So, back on topic. Very happy so far with the STG Hail 1" cubes.
> 
> ...


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## Al B. Fuct (May 24, 2012)

bigwood111 said:


> STG is very pricey. I think it would cost at least twice as much if not three times as much as the fytocell.


I get Fytocell for about $55/100L. After sampling some prices online, I think STG will come in about $75/100L, but we'll see.


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## Gyroscope (May 24, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> That's not the only qwazy thing about the southern hemisphere. Stargazing northern hemi natives will immediately notice that the moon appears rotated about 60 degrees (depending upon your original northerly latitude & southerly latitude perspectives) counterclockwise. The moon (and sun, for that matter) traverses an arc across the northern sky, effectively from right to left, as opposed to the left to right apparent motion as viewed from the northern hemisphere. And it gets weirder when looking at constellations visible from both hemispheres...


Being in the US I have never given much thought about this, but it makes perfect sense. It would seem odd seeing the sun going from "right to left".
Cheers.


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## Al B. Fuct (May 25, 2012)

Yep, got some pricing on STG... about what I'd guessed. Loose fill version is about 30% cheaper than cubes. Loose fill STG is somewhat less expensive per L than Fytocell. Would like to get a bag of that to try out.


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## ANC (May 25, 2012)

how high do I put a 400W hps above newly rooted clones?


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## ANC (May 25, 2012)

P.S the light is in, timer programed for 12/12 I just need to throw some clones under the light now, as soon as I get some feedback...
Also still doing a dryrun tonight to check temps....Don't have an extractor for the room yet, but I ductaped a small fan to the intake of my cooltube and rand the outlet into the ceiling. 
Ducting on one isde is hot on the other it is cold, so I think its kinda working somewhat. The glass tube still gets quite hot, maybe 60 or 70C by the thumb-test, maybe hotter even.

Will buy another controler shortly, that runs a fan and a heater to keep temp and humidity in a 5 degree range. But its another $40. I have for the sake of my sanity stoped doing sums as I buy shit for the op.


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## Al B. Fuct (May 28, 2012)

ANC said:


> how high do I put a 400W hps above newly rooted clones?


About 400-500mm.



ANC said:


> P.S the light is in, timer programed for 12/12 I just need to throw some clones under the light now, as soon as I get some feedback...
> Also still doing a dryrun tonight to check temps....Don't have an extractor for the room yet, but I ductaped a small fan to the intake of my cooltube and rand the outlet into the ceiling.
> Ducting on one isde is hot on the other it is cold, so I think its kinda working somewhat. The glass tube still gets quite hot, maybe 60 or 70C by the thumb-test, maybe hotter even.



If a cooltube or duct gets warm to the touch, you need more fan power or fewer restrictions in the airflow path.



> Will buy another controler shortly, that runs a fan and a heater to keep temp and humidity in a 5 degree range. But its another $40. I have for the sake of my sanity stoped doing sums as I buy shit for the op.



You need at least a thermostat to control the intake & exhaust fans. If you're running a dehumidifier, it can run on a timer to coincide with lights-off hours, when humidity tends to spike. During lights-on, the heat from lights will trigger the thermostat; frequent ventilation should keep humidity in check. 

Yes, starting up a new op is exxy, but if you buy the right stuff, you'll buy it once & use the op for years- and you most certainly will recover your investment.


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## ANC (May 28, 2012)

Thanks Al, so far room is running about 18C in the morning to 23C by shutoff.
It is pretty small, the whole room is about 9-10 cubic meters of which a 3rd is boarded off as my wife's laundry.

Its so nice and warm to go into, fekking freezing in the winter mornings. Will obviously be a problem in summer, but I will store for the warm, months rather than the other way round I've always been doing.

I just came in from sitting in the sun, cleaning a small 200gph water pump to try and make an areocloner thingy.... it's just too cold to stick clones into media at the moment, after almost 4 weeks, I have 0 roots. 

I have a bucket with a sealing lid, an aquarium heater, a 35mm drill and some plugs I cut off from a piece of swimmingpool noodle. Think I'll melt the centre hole with a long warm nail, and then make a cut through to it to attach the clones.

Will have to go read your howto for the 10th time now to go check things like water level, nuteing etc.


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## ANC (May 28, 2012)

Has been a busy day, including makeing a cast of my wife's belly along with baby's godparents, but got a 15 site cloner finished tonight with a glass of pink bubbly to celebrate the cloner... 
Tommorrow morning I'll try a new run of clones. I hope she is born tommorrow, then we will share a birthday, and it is also her godparent' wedding aniversary. Such good vibes for a blessed new grow.


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## Bigz2277 (May 29, 2012)

ANC said:


> Has been a busy day, including makeing a cast of my wife's belly along with baby's godparents, but got a 15 site cloner finished tonight with a glass of pink bubbly to celebrate the cloner...
> Tommorrow morning I'll try a new run of clones. I hope she is born tommorrow, then we will share a birthday, and it is also her godparent' wedding aniversary. Such good vibes for a blessed new grow.


Happy early bday ^_^


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## ANC (May 29, 2012)

Hehe, its not early anymore, busy bbqing a T-bone on my indoor BBQ useing black wattle coals. Gotta love africa, haveing a fireplace in your dining room


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 7, 2012)

Whew. Finally a moment to breathe. 

New ballasts (really only needed new capacitors, but meh) are paying off in spades. Yields are back up to about .75z/plant, nice lumpy, dense buds. 

Also have started using Canna PK1314 again since *Canna have posted some good instructions on how to use it.* With past instructions, I was consistently getting nute burn. Did one batch at 1ml/L for week 5 only (along with 3ml/L Canna Flores) and saw a nice improvement in yield with no nute burn. However, I usually run a tank for 2 weeks and thought dumping a tank of PK & Flores after 1 week & mixing up another tank of straight Flores for only week 6 was a bit wasteful. So, ran the next batch in tray 3 on PK + Flores for weeks 5 & 6. No nute burn so far. Looking pretty good, will let you know how the yields go.


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## Shwagbag (Jun 7, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Whew. Finally a moment to breathe.
> 
> New ballasts (really only needed new capacitors, but meh) are paying off in spades. Yields are back up to about .75z/plant, nice lumpy, dense buds.
> 
> Also have started using Canna PK1314 again since *Canna have posted some good instructions on how to use it.* With past instructions, I was consistently getting nute burn. Did one batch at 1ml/L for week 5 only (along with 3ml/L Canna Flores) and saw a nice improvement in yield with no nute burn. However, I usually run a tank for 2 weeks and thought dumping a tank of PK & Flores after 1 week & mixing up another tank of straight Flores for only week 6 was a bit wasteful. So, ran the next batch in tray 3 on PK + Flores for weeks 5 & 6. No nute burn so far. Looking pretty good, will let you know how the yields go.


Good to hear Al, lumpy dense nugz with the stanks make me all warm and fuzzy.


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## NoOne (Jun 8, 2012)

Holy Fuct, this thread is still going a year later. Al I'm back living in Arizona and enjoying my states medical MJ laws.  Two things that really sucks about Arizona though is the super hot summers and the price gouging my electric company does. As such my question is, what is your opinion on the 12/1 light cycle for vegetative growth? Does it over stress the plant? If you have tried this method, did you notice a larger node spacing? Seems to me the cost saving in not running my ac or lights for a few hours might be worth trying this method even if i have to use some more light for supplemental purposes to stop node stretching. Let me know what you think. Also to anyone else that reads this please try to save the "this method is crazy" comments etc, I have seen this method discussed in year one horticulture books for 10+ years and its been employed by the commercial flower company's for years. So please save your breath and time on trying to bash this grow technique. However if you have real life experience and know about real life results in regards to power savings, plant stress or node length numbers then please feel free to reply. Thank you, NoOne


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## tyler.durden (Jun 8, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Whew. Finally a moment to breathe.
> 
> New ballasts (really only needed new capacitors, but meh) are paying off in spades. Yields are back up to about .75z/plant, nice lumpy, dense buds.
> 
> Also have started using Canna PK1314 again since *Canna have posted some good instructions on how to use it.* With past instructions, I was consistently getting nute burn. Did one batch at 1ml/L for week 5 only (along with 3ml/L Canna Flores) and saw a nice improvement in yield with no nute burn. However, I usually run a tank for 2 weeks and thought dumping a tank of PK & Flores after 1 week & mixing up another tank of straight Flores for only week 6 was a bit wasteful. So, ran the next batch in tray 3 on PK + Flores for weeks 5 & 6. No nute burn so far. Looking pretty good, will let you know how the yields go.


Hey, Al! So you sprung for new ballasts, huh? Did you go digital or stay with magnetic?


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## Shwagbag (Jun 8, 2012)

What do you mean by 12/1? There are 24 hours in a day, I'm wondering if you had a typo?


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## NoOne (Jun 8, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> What do you mean by 12/1? There are 24 hours in a day, I'm wondering if you had a typo?


Not to be mean but google or a search on here would have netted you an answer. I didn't explain it on purpose cause people love to respond with its crazy etc. 12/1 is simple, 12 hours of light on 5.5 hours of light off 1 hour light on and 5.5 hours of light off. This gives you nearly the least amount of hours to have your lights on in a given day and keep the plant vegetating.


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## missnu (Jun 8, 2012)

But the less light the less growth..for real...what you are talking about sounds like a great way to cause some serious light stress...as well...
I personally would not do such a thing...good old 18 hrs on followed with 6 off is my favorite.


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## NoOne (Jun 8, 2012)

missnu said:


> But the less light the less growth..for real...what you are talking about sounds like a great way to cause some serious light stress...as well...
> I personally would not do such a thing...good old 18 hrs on followed with 6 off is my favorite.





NoOne said:


> *Also to anyone else that reads this please try to save the "this method is crazy" comments etc, I have seen this method discussed in year one horticulture books for 10+ years and its been employed by the commercial flower company's for years. So please save your breath and time on trying to bash this grow technique. However if you have real life experience and know about real life results in regards to power savings, plant stress or node length numbers then please feel free to reply. Thank you, NoOne *


Wow really

As for growth potential, here is a video of mj growing under this tech, in the video he even has a part where he shows how much he trims every week not including any cuttings he might take etc. Also he shows his node spacing and it looks pretty good at the top, hell maybe better then mine do atm and they have been under 24/7 from the start.

[video=youtube;fj28bTw6d8E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fj28bTw6d8E[/video]


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## Shwagbag (Jun 8, 2012)

NoOne said:


> Not to be mean but google or a search on here would have netted you an answer. I didn't explain it on purpose cause people love to respond with its crazy etc. 12/1 is simple, 12 hours of light on 5.5 hours of light off 1 hour light on and 5.5 hours of light off. This gives you nearly the least amount of hours to have your lights on in a given day and keep the plant vegetating.


Thanks for clarifying, it would have been just as easy without sounding like a douche. Good luck with the method and enjoy the forum.


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## sdgrower (Jun 8, 2012)

I would love to hear if 12/1 works. I grow chem hybrids so I am a little hesitant to try it.


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## beginner.legal.growop (Jun 8, 2012)

Yo Al, does all the information you have given apply to soil growing? 

Does unsulfered molasses make a difference if you added it to soil?

Does chlorinated water in the US cause harm when you smoke your final product?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 10, 2012)

NoOne said:


> Holy Fuct, this thread is still going a year later. Al I'm back living in Arizona and enjoying my states medical MJ laws.  Two things that really sucks about Arizona though is the super hot summers and the price gouging my electric company does. As such my question is, what is your opinion on the 12/1 light cycle for vegetative growth? Does it over stress the plant? If you have tried this method, did you notice a larger node spacing? Seems to me the cost saving in not running my ac or lights for a few hours might be worth trying this method even if i have to use some more light for supplemental purposes to stop node stretching. Let me know what you think. Also to anyone else that reads this please try to save the "this method is crazy" comments etc, I have seen this method discussed in year one horticulture books for 10+ years and its been employed by the commercial flower company's for years. So please save your breath and time on trying to bash this grow technique. However if you have real life experience and know about real life results in regards to power savings, plant stress or node length numbers then please feel free to reply. Thank you, NoOne


I do not recommend monkeying around with photoperiods- not for flowering plants and _*especially *_not for mother plants. 

Clones perform best in SoG when they come from thick-stemmed vigorous mothers. You get that with 18/6 or 24/0 lighting. 

Weird photoperiods tend to produce hermaphrodism in flowering plants and may induce flowering in vegging mums. This is particularly bad rice. Once a mum has begun flowering, clones taken from it will be slow to root. The cure is to re-veg a mum that has begun to flower under 18/6 or 24/0 light for about 4-6 weeks, cutting back severely every 2 weeks. 

I really wish people would stop trying to re-invent the wheel. If you're growing dope, you're doing it to get dope. Use methods known to work. Trying to use less mains power is admirable but playing with photoperiods is a false economy. 



tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Al! So you sprung for new ballasts, huh? Did you go digital or stay with magnetic?


Stayed with magnetic. Magnetics use about 5% more AC input power than an electronic or digital ballast, due to eddy current losses in the ballast's iron core. However, they're 1/4-1/3 the price of an electronic ballast and well known for no-brainer reliability. Honestly, there's just 3 components in a magnetic ballast and all of them are more durable than a semiconductor junction. Having a warranty is nice- never having a ballast quit unexpectedly is nicer. 



beginner.legal.growop said:


> Yo Al, does all the information you have given apply to soil growing?
> 
> Does unsulfered molasses make a difference if you added it to soil?
> 
> Does chlorinated water in the US cause harm when you smoke your final product?


Moleasses may have some use in organic soil culture, but from the agricultural science papers I've seen on it so far, it's certainly not magic. Molasses have no purpose in hydroponics. 

Chlorinated water is fine for drinking and growing plants. Municipal water treatment chlorination alone will keep a tank of nutrient solution pathogen free for about 3 days. Use care with non-expert & conspiracy-mongering opinions of chlorination & fluoridation.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 12, 2012)

It's nice to have a pound just sittin' around.


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## trichome fiend (Jun 12, 2012)

...isn't it though?


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## Shwagbag (Jun 12, 2012)

I wouldn't know as it is illegal for me to possess such quantities under my state's medical laws 

Great looking fruits guys, its nice to see Al still has a camera!  Looks like TF said to hell with using latex gloves, I'll just use these same ones whenever I trim! lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 12, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> I wouldn't know as it is illegal for me to possess such quantities under my state's medical laws
> 
> Great looking fruits guys, its nice to see Al still has a camera!  Looks like TF said to hell with using latex gloves, I'll just use these same ones whenever I trim! lol


It's nice that some localities have medical schemes in place, I maintain that if you ever have cause to fear LEO counting your plants or weighing your stash, your security culture needs a revisit. 

I don't tend to take too many pix because a perpetual op always looks pretty much the same. But, if it makes you feel better, here's tray 4 with plants in week 6.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 12, 2012)

Terrific. Firefox is (again) reporting that RIU has been reported as an 'attack site.' 

Hacked again? WTF.


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## Gyroscope (Jun 12, 2012)

Google Chrome just told me the same thing.....


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## firsttimeARE (Jun 12, 2012)

Oh wow I think this is a first flowering shot i've seen from you. Always been curious. Figured you avoided pictures for safety reasons though.

I've never thanked you for the time you spent on this site and all the words you've wrote, and rewrote for anyone not dedicated enough to skim through all the pages, haha... So thanks for your threads ABF! I've read your stickies all but harvest every 2 weeks thread. But from what I gather Al B FAQt thread covers most topics discussed in the other threads. Not gonna lie it was a chore reading all 180+ pages of the FAQt; Especially seeing the same questions being asked, which I understand, not everyone wants to read it all.

You really did help me out immensely when I was first getting into hydro/growing in general really as i've never grown soil and went straight to hydro. I don't use the table anymore and switched to bubble buckets as I feel they're easier to handle for a newbie, but you helped establish my hydro understanding that carried over to the buckets and now i'm a few weeks away from my first harvest. Its been months since i've read your work, but figured I owed you something. I'll be back to the tables eventually.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 12, 2012)

firsttimeARE said:


> Oh wow I think this is a first flowering shot i've seen from you. Always been curious. Figured you avoided pictures for safety reasons though.


There were lots of flowering (and other) posted at one time, but apparently there was a forum software change which made them disappear. A whole library of stuff. Poof. 



> I've never thanked you for the time you spent on this site and all the words you've wrote, and rewrote for anyone not dedicated enough to skim through all the pages, haha... So thanks for your threads ABF! I've read your stickies all but harvest every 2 weeks thread. But from what I gather Al B FAQt thread covers most topics discussed in the other threads. Not gonna lie it was a chore reading all 180+ pages of the FAQt; Especially seeing the same questions being asked, which I understand, not everyone wants to read it all.


I agree that the archive is a less than excellent way to get the data. The solution is for me to roll it into a grow guide. The rub is that I'm a stoned slacker and that'll probably never happen. 



> You really did help me out immensely when I was first getting into hydro/growing in general really as i've never grown soil and went straight to hydro. I don't use the table anymore and switched to bubble buckets as I feel they're easier to handle for a newbie, but you helped establish my hydro understanding that carried over to the buckets and now i'm a few weeks away from my first harvest. Its been months since i've read your work, but figured I owed you something. I'll be back to the tables eventually.


Thanks for that, but the only thing you owe me is to pay it forward. Get proficient over a few years and consider helping noobs on the boards. 

Surprised to see you say bubble buckets are easier. Flood systems are the dead-nuts simplest watering systems going; near zero maintenance, limited modes of failure and tolerant of pump/timer failures and especially tolerant of power outages. I wouldn't run a bubble system without a UPS for the air pump/s, with enough capacity to sustain air supply through at least 24 hours. Loss of air supply in DWC can trash roots in a matter of hours. Then again, I live in a place where the power goes out just about every time the wind blows...

Hope you get boatloads of buds.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 12, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ...isn't it though?
> 
> 
> View attachment 2209381View attachment 2209386View attachment 2209383View attachment 2209384View attachment 2209385View attachment 2209382


Noice work.


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## Shwagbag (Jun 13, 2012)

Lovely Al! Beautiful SoG canopy you have there with some stellar nugz. Love me some tray 4 lol.

Yes, its nice having the comfort of knowing that I can legally cultivate, but when it really comes down to it its just my name on another list and some people perhaps look at it as a greater likelihood of getting pinched. Michigan changed the legislation to allow state LEO's access to the list which is just plain bullspit. That said, I'm pretty comfortable and careful. My operation is small and within the limitations of the laws, perpetual seems to be the best way to do that. I'm getting security cameras installed soon though, it will be nice to know that they'll be recording while I'm away and I can access them through the web or iphone app 24/7 with a 15 day recording loop. 

Thanks for sharing pics Al, and TC, dense and dank as always!


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## firsttimeARE (Jun 13, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Surprised to see you say bubble buckets are easier. Flood systems are the dead-nuts simplest watering systems going; near zero maintenance, limited modes of failure and tolerant of pump/timer failures and especially tolerant of power outages. I wouldn't run a bubble system without a UPS for the air pump/s, with enough capacity to sustain air supply through at least 24 hours. Loss of air supply in DWC can trash roots in a matter of hours. Then again, I live in a place where the power goes out just about every time the wind blows...
> 
> Hope you get boatloads of buds.


You're right with there being more mechanical issues to go wrong. 

It's mostly because I had success with the same time given to each style of growing. Consideration has to be given to the fact that I had experience that carried over from my time in flood and drain which I will go back to after a couple DWC runs, got a strain surplus I need to burn down at the moment. I also find cleaning the buckets are much easier than cleaning a 1066mm square table and 40gal res.

Power failures aren't that common around here thankfully and if they do I have a gas generator that would easily handle the whole room. I also have 2 dual diaphragm air pumps powering 4 buckets with 2 air stones per bucket, 1 from each air pump so I don't have to worry if a pump goes one stone will still be supplying air. If they both go that'd just be some crazy odds and I'd probably just be too amazed to be mad.

Thanks, I hope so too.

This is a picture of a strain i'm growing called Fruity Chronic Juice at 42 days flower. I love the way this plant grows.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 15, 2012)

firsttimeARE said:


> You're right with there being more mechanical issues to go wrong.
> 
> It's mostly because I had success with the same time given to each style of growing. Consideration has to be given to the fact that I had experience that carried over from my time in flood and drain which I will go back to after a couple DWC runs, got a strain surplus I need to burn down at the moment. I also find cleaning the buckets are much easier than cleaning a 1066mm square table and 40gal res.
> 
> ...


I'm a big fan of redundancy. Wherever possible, having a live backup is a very good idea. A genset is also a very good thing to have.

Fruity Chronic Juice looks ok but I think it'd yield a lot more heavily for you if grown in a SoG arrangement. When growth division is induced by pruning back, you get a larger number of smaller buds, as demonstrated in your pix. As indicated by the browning of the calyxes, this plant is approaching the limit of bud production before the buds have gotten all that large. The bulk of bud production occurs between weeks 6 & 8, so there might yet be a bit more in it, but the calyx browning is telling you that it most likely won't be making much more than what you're seeing now. 

Looking forward to seeing this strain's performance in a SoG arrangement.


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## firsttimeARE (Jun 15, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'm a big fan of redundancy. Wherever possible, having a live backup is a very good idea. A genset is also a very good thing to have.
> 
> Fruity Chronic Juice looks ok but I think it'd yield a lot more heavily for you if grown in a SoG arrangement. When growth division is induced by pruning back, you get a larger number of smaller buds, as demonstrated in your pix. As indicated by the browning of the calyxes, this plant is approaching the limit of bud production before the buds have gotten all that large. The bulk of bud production occurs between weeks 6 & 8, so there might yet be a bit more in it, but the calyx browning is telling you that it most likely won't be making much more than what you're seeing now.
> 
> Looking forward to seeing this strain's performance in a SoG arrangement.


Yeah the only thing that worries me with SoG setup is the number of plants. I might still do it when I go back to the table. Unfortunately this was a freebie seed so this is the only one. I liked it though and would be interested in having some seeds of it on hand.

She just started browning up and still has some white calyxes. Never knew that was a sign of ceased bud production, but now I do. I wasn't sure what I was doing with that pruning, I topped it incorrectly so instead of forming 2 new tops the next node down just grew up and took its place to form a Y shaped stem. Then throughout the grow I was pruning the fan leaves that were covering top bud sites that weren't as high.

Do you harvest when buds reach their limit? Or is there a benefit to keeping them a bit longer? I hadn't planned on harvesting this until another 2 weeks, should I be planning sooner? Trichomes are still clear/cloudy but fully formed head, probably 50/50 ratio. And I wanted to *gasp* flush them for a week.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 16, 2012)

firsttimeARE said:


> Yeah the only thing that worries me with SoG setup is the number of plants. I might still do it when I go back to the table. Unfortunately this was a freebie seed so this is the only one. I liked it though and would be interested in having some seeds of it on hand.
> 
> She just started browning up and still has some white calyxes. Never knew that was a sign of ceased bud production, but now I do. I wasn't sure what I was doing with that pruning, I topped it incorrectly so instead of forming 2 new tops the next node down just grew up and took its place to form a Y shaped stem. Then throughout the grow I was pruning the fan leaves that were covering top bud sites that weren't as high.
> 
> Do you harvest when buds reach their limit? Or is there a benefit to keeping them a bit longer? I hadn't planned on harvesting this until another 2 weeks, should I be planning sooner? Trichomes are still clear/cloudy but fully formed head, probably 50/50 ratio. And I wanted to *gasp* flush them for a week.


Of course, plant count with SoG is a drawback, but with sufficient security culture & behaviours, you can conceivably grow indefinitely without LEO contact. I've been growing for more than 25 years without a single cannabis-related legal problem. 

Cannabis plants do flower for a definite, limited period. This character is strain dependent but is usually 8-9 weeks. When 80% of the calyxes have darkened (some brown, some orange), it's time to harvest. Once the calyxes are all darkened, very little new bud material will be produced. At this point, d9-THC in trichomes tends to begin breaking down into cannabidiol (CBD) & other less psychoactive cannabinoids. 

If you prune off growing tips, growth will continue from the nodes just below. Pruning off growing tips is how topiary is accomplished in other types of plants. In cannabis, this will make the plant bushier, with more bud sites, but the flowers produced will be smaller than the buds produced from a natural terminal node. 

Don't remove healthy fan leaves. They are the solar panels which generate sugars which are converted into cellulose matter that build more plant material, be that more root, leaf or bud. 

Plants store about 2 weeks worth of nutrients. You can stop feeding in wk 6 and usually not see any signs of nutrient deficiency til the end of week 8. The only thing that removes stored nutrients from the plant is photosynthesis. This takes time and exposure to light. Despite advertised claims, there is no product which will accelerate this process. You can 'flush' plants if you want but it is unlikely to make any difference to the smoking characters of the buds. You can try it if you like, but the only result I've ever seen from withdrawing nutrients is accelerated maturation (which stops formation of bud matter prematurely). 

There's a lot of urban myth around regarding 'flushing,' 'curing,' etc. Most of these myths date back to the late 1960s to early 1970s. At the time (and through the early 1980s), imported cannabis supplied for smoking was generally the whole dried plant, leaves & all- and it was usually wickedly harsh to smoke. Homegrowers tended to treat cannabis as though it was tobacco, employing curing methods used to make tobacco leaf more pleasant to smoke, but mimicked the whole-plant style of the imported product. It wasn't until cannabis cultivation came indoors broadly with the 1986 advent of the SON-T HPS light (which supplies some blue spectrum light) that cannabis bud, without leaf, became the predominant style of supply. 

Cannabis buds are much more pleasant to smoke than leaf because there's a very high ratio of resin to cellulose matter in them, the opposite of leaf. Buds, particularly from pedigreed DNA, don't require any any special treatment to make them smooth to smoke, be that 'flushing' or 'curing,' but old habits die slowly. To this very day you will find people insisting upon treating cannabis bud as though it were tobacco leaf. 'Flushing' and 'curing' of buds is quite unnecessary, is generally a waste of time and done badly can (and does) invite mould, which spoils the lot. 

Choose wisely, grasshopper!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 16, 2012)

If you're feeling geeky, Wikipedia has a rather good description of the theory of operation of HPS lighting and its history. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp#High_pressure_sodium


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## Shwagbag (Jun 17, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you're feeling geeky, Wikipedia has a rather good description of the theory of operation of HPS lighting and its history.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium-vapor_lamp#High_pressure_sodium


I live and die by the geekness!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 18, 2012)

Just took a minute to swing the camera around the flowering area. 


Clones at the end of week 2. This set is doing very well.


Tray 1 at the end of week 2.


Tray 2 in the background, end of week 4. Not as happy with this batch; some rosetting (failure of stems to elongate), not sure of the cause. 


Tray 3 in the background, plants in week 6. Also had some rosetting in this batch. 


Tray 4 with plants in week 8, nearly ready to harvest. 


Another view of tray 4. 


This batch will yield pretty well, looking for about 12-14oz or so.


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## cindysid (Jun 18, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Of course, plant count with SoG is a drawback, but with sufficient security culture & behaviours, you can conceivably grow indefinitely without LEO contact. I've been growing for more than 25 years without a single cannabis-related legal problem.
> 
> Cannabis plants do flower for a definite, limited period. This character is strain dependent but is usually 8-9 weeks. When 80% of the calyxes have darkened (some brown, some orange), it's time to harvest. Once the calyxes are all darkened, very little new bud material will be produced. At this point, d9-THC in trichomes tends to begin breaking down into cannabidiol (CBD) & other less psychoactive cannabinoids.
> 
> ...



Hi Al! You are a veritable fount of knowledge! I have a question. Are you saying that you don't cure your buds? How do you process your harvest? I have always thought the "flushing" thing was bs. There are way too many "voodoo" theories on growing pot, and you're right, old habits die hard. Thanks in advance.


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## Shwagbag (Jun 18, 2012)

I think with a lb laying around ABF cures whether he means to or not lol. I definitely like a cured product better personally, I notice a difference in flavor and aroma without any doubt. Potency, I'd say I notice no difference, they all make me cross-eyed lol. 

Nice shots Al, its been a long while since you've shared some photos of the op, its nice to see you active even if it is temporary. That's a great setup. It feels so good to just maintain a garden once all of the effort and expense is done up front to dial everything in. Have you ever thought about investing in a bud trimmer? One of the local shops rents them by the day here lol.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 18, 2012)

cindysid said:


> Hi Al! You are a veritable fount of knowledge! I have a question. Are you saying that you don't cure your buds?


Correct. No need for any such process. 



> How do you process your harvest?


I built a bud dryer which pushes ever-so-slightly warmed air (limited to 29C max) through the buds. 

This is an old sketch of how it's set up- I've since built a version 2, so the reference to two 470 ohm resistors is obsolete...



But the general physical configuration is the same in version 2. 




This is the wiring diagram for version 2. Bear in mind this unit is designed for 240V mains AC. Resistors R1-6 in V2 are 680 ohm, 25W. If you want to make a copy for 120V, halve the R values to 340 ohms. The blue thermistor is incorporated in the thermostat, but since I wanted the thermostat on the outside of the box, I had to remove it from the thermostat and remotely mount it in the airstream. You could substitute another type of thermostat which has a remotable temp sensor (either thermistor or mercury bulb type) to avoid having to tear apart the thermostat, but you clever folks will dream something up to suit, I'm sure!

The box labelled MSC is a motor speed controller. This is optional. It can be used to slow the fan motors down to both reduce noise and airflow through the heat sink, the latter being useful if the heat generated by the resistors isn't enough to bring the air temp up to 29C when the fans are running at full speed. 

The bud dryer only raises intake air temp slightly for the purpose of reducing the relative humidity of the air pumped through the buds. Air at a lower RH will pick up water more readily. The thermostat puts an absolute limit of 29C on the air fed through the buds because temps above that point will cause d9-THC to break down into less- or non-psychoactive components like cannabidiol (CBD). 

The dryer, configured as shown, will dry buds fully in 3 days. You could omit the heating components and it would still work but would take 6-8 days, depending upon the RH of the air being drawn through the unit. However, the entire point of drying quickly is complete elimination of the possibility of mould. Mould needs moisture, cool temps & still air to thrive. A bud dryer with a heating unit eliminates all the conditions required for mould to grow. 

Before anyone asks, no, this dryer does not produce harsh smoking buds (and concern trolls who want to ask 'ARE YOU SURE?!, please don't. It doesn't.). It IS possible to overdry buds with it if you leave buds in it too long. Overdry buds crumble easily if handled. However, rehydrating buds is as simple as putting a teaspoon of water on a paper towel and nesting it in the buds in a plastic storage tub. Rehydrating as described will make them pliant again with no change to the smoking or buzz characters. 

Buds are not tobacco leaves- 'curing' buds is simply unnecessary. The only treatment required is drying them to a point where they can be smoked and mould will not grow on them.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 18, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> I think with a lb laying around ABF cures whether he means to or not lol. I definitely like a cured product better personally, I notice a difference in flavor and aroma without any doubt. Potency, I'd say I notice no difference, they all make me cross-eyed lol.


Buds don't hang around here very long. About the only thing that happens when the buds are in one of my tubs is the moisture content will equalise through all buds in the tubs. If that's 'curing,' so be it. 



> Nice shots Al, its been a long while since you've shared some photos of the op, its nice to see you active even if it is temporary. That's a great setup. It feels so good to just maintain a garden once all of the effort and expense is done up front to dial everything in.


Thanks. 



> Have you ever thought about investing in a bud trimmer? One of the local shops rents them by the day here lol.


Bud trimmers leave too much leaf on buds for my liking. However, I'm old enough that my eyesight is starting to suck & my hands are a tick arthritic, so I will never say 'never.'


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 20, 2012)

Harvest time again.



Here's 3 typical SoG plants with fan leaves removed. Bud masses about 330mm tall. About .75z per plant. Rock solid nugs. The magic of the mighty 1000HPS.


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## Southtexasman87 (Jun 20, 2012)

Can't view^^^^^


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## *BUDS (Jun 20, 2012)

> Overdry buds crumble easily if handled. However, rehydrating buds is as simple as putting a teaspoon of water on a paper towel and nesting it in the buds in a plastic storage tub


Al, have you tried a plastic cup just shorter in hieght than the lid (storage tub) placed in the middle of the dry buds with the damp clean tissues in it? Its clean there is no wet contact with the buds and has the same rehydrating effect.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 20, 2012)

Southtexasman87 said:


> Can't view^^^^^


Stupid bloody board. Re-uploaded pic. Should be OK now.



*BUDS said:


> Al, have you tried a plastic cup just shorter in hieght than the lid (storage tub) placed in the middle of the dry buds with the damp clean tissues in it? Its clean there is no wet contact with the buds and has the same rehydrating effect.


I'd imagine that'd work fine.


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## Southtexasman87 (Jun 20, 2012)

Looks great al!! Reps to yea


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## Swiezy (Jun 22, 2012)

Al, could you describe how you clean whole system to prevent pathogens infection?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 22, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> Al, could you describe how you clean whole system to prevent pathogens infection?


Simple, regular application of 50% grade H2O2. Use 1ml/L of tank volume every 3-4 days. If you can't get 50%, use 35% at 1.7ml/L. Avoid pharmacy grades like 3% & 9%. Uneconomical to use & low strength H2O2 contains stabiliser chemicals, the breakdown components of which are harmful to plants.


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## Swiezy (Jun 22, 2012)

sorry My question wasnt precise. I ment biweekly cleaning. Is mix of water with bleach, brush and pumping the mix through whole system will do the job?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 22, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> sorry My question wasnt precise. I ment biweekly cleaning. Is mix of water with bleach, brush and pumping the mix through whole system will do the job?


You can use a solution of 10% sodium hypochlorite (laundry bleach) in water with a few drops of liquid dishwashing soap as a wetting agent to assure solution contact with all surfaces. Be sure to flush the system with copious amounts of plain water after cleaning with a bleach solution. Sodium hypochlorite is harmful to plants. 

An alternative is to use a strong H2O2 in water soln (50-100ml 50% H2O2 in 1L water, also a few drops of liquid dishwashing soap) for cleaning. You don't need to flush the system after cleaning with this sort of solution. A small amount of liquid soap is not harmful to plants.


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## zem (Jun 24, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Just took a minute to swing the camera around the flowering area.
> 
> View attachment 2217214
> Clones at the end of week 2. This set is doing very well.
> ...


hey there Al, very nice grow! I have to ask, what's this white medium?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 24, 2012)

zem said:


> hey there Al, very nice grow! I have to ask, what's this white medium?


Thanks. The medium is Fytocell. http://www.fytogreen.com.au/products/fytocell.htm


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 25, 2012)

Why does the board keep returning this error?

[h=2]"Errors[/h] [h=3]The following errors occurred with your submission[/h] 

The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters."
 

The message I'm trying to post is a lot more than 10 characters long!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 25, 2012)

I'm a bit tired of people who don't think critically. "Organic" doesn't mean "good" and "all natural" doesn't mean "safe."

From: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/04/20/3184037.htm



> When did 'chemical' come to mean the opposite of 'natural'?
> 
> Chemical scientist Uta Wille defends the demonised substances that make up the world around us.
> 
> ...


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 25, 2012)

Having a hell of a time getting this bloody board to take this text...

Also...

from http://www.atomsandnumbers.com/2012/a-closer-look-at-a-100-natural-product/


> A closer look at a &#8220;100% natural&#8221; product
> 
> During a recent trip to the supermarket, I saw a line of &#8220;100% natural&#8221; cleaning products on a shelf. I took a closer look at a few of the products &#8211; kitchen cleaner, toilet bowl cleaner, laundry detergent &#8211; curious as to its ingredients and the presentation of its naturalness. Some products had a rather long list of ingredients, but the natural provenance of every single one was listed &#8211; while interesting, this doesn&#8217;t really make a difference in terms of the product&#8217;s effectiveness or potential toxicity, since a chemical coming from a natural source is just as safe or unsafe as the same chemical coming from a synthetic (man-made) source. The product itself could be very effective, but marketing a product as all-natural allows these companies to further perpetrate this myth.
> 
> ...


Pay attention to that bit about sodium stannate in low-strength H2O2. The breakdown components of sodium stannate are harmful to plants, which is why you should not use low-strength 3% or 9% H2O2 as a hydroponic nutrient solution steriliser.


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## Shwagbag (Jun 26, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> I'm a bit tired of people who don't think critically. "Organic" doesn't mean "good" and "all natural" doesn't mean "safe."
> 
> From: http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2011/04/20/3184037.htm


Good read! Even though it makes complete sense to me, many people would read this and disregard it without any consideration. People, as a whole, have never really been very good at critical thinking. I do agree its getting worse, but I would say a majority of the public is ignorant pertaining to logic, deductive reasoning and general critical thinking. At least in my region! I don't think I'm intellectually superior to most people per se, but I do acknowledge my ability to think logically and critically while I deduce that most people do not, making me sound like a pretentious self righteous asshole occasionally, ahahahah.

I'm an expert at very few things, but it amazes me how absolutely clueless people can be with access to so many resources to information. I think reading the Reader's Digest would make one sound like a Harvard graduate to some people. Having said all that I still love organic fertilizers because they're so damn easy to work with. Have a good day all!


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## Bigz2277 (Jun 26, 2012)

Very good couple articles there Al!

How is the STG hail working for you?


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## Surrealestate (Jun 26, 2012)

Plants store about 2 weeks worth of nutrients. You can stop feeding in wk 6 and usually not see any signs of nutrient deficiency til the end of week 8. The only thing that removes stored nutrients from the plant is photosynthesis. This takes time and exposure to light. Despite advertised claims, there is no product which will accelerate this process. You can 'flush' plants if you want but it is unlikely to make any difference to the smoking characters of the buds. You can try it if you like, but the only result I've ever seen from withdrawing nutrients is accelerated maturation (which stops formation of bud matter prematurely). 

There's a lot of urban myth around regarding 'flushing,' 'curing,' etc. Most of these myths date back to the late 1960s to early 1970s. At the time (and through the early 1980s), imported cannabis supplied for smoking was generally the whole dried plant, leaves & all- and it was usually wickedly harsh to smoke. Homegrowers tended to treat cannabis as though it was tobacco, employing curing methods used to make tobacco leaf more pleasant to smoke, but mimicked the whole-plant style of the imported product. It wasn't until cannabis cultivation came indoors broadly with the 1986 advent of the SON-T HPS light (which supplies some blue spectrum light) that cannabis bud, without leaf, became the predominant style of supply. 

Cannabis buds are much more pleasant to smoke than leaf because there's a very high ratio of resin to cellulose matter in them, the opposite of leaf. Buds, particularly from pedigreed DNA, don't require any any special treatment to make them smooth to smoke, be that 'flushing' or 'curing,' but old habits die slowly. To this very day you will find people insisting upon treating cannabis bud as though it were tobacco leaf. 'Flushing' and 'curing' of buds is quite unnecessary, is generally a waste of time and done badly can (and does) invite mould, which spoils the lot. 

Choose wisely, grasshopper! [/QUOTE]

Hey Al, 

As always thanks for the info. It means a lot to those of us who need it. Question for you. What do you surmise contributes to smoke that is harsh with a less than fragrant odor and little taste? Most everything I can find blames curing/drying methods. Thoughts?


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## hxvoc (Jun 26, 2012)

Hey al, if you run your exhaust on a thermostat or a timer that cuts the fan off totally throughout the day then how do you maintain negative pressure in your room to avoid smell leaking out?


EDIT! 
*

Simply parallel a motor speed controller with a thermostat. Set the MSC to a fairly low speed, enough to keep some air moving but not so low there's a chance of stalling the fan with some voltage applied (which might cause damage to the fan motor). Set the thermostat to switch on at 26C. When air temp exceeds 26C, the full line voltage will be applied to the fan motor- the thermostat provides a zero-ohm path around the MSC. Below the thermostat setpoint, its contacts are open and the current path will be through the MSC. The exhaust fan should be pushing air through a carbon filter. The net effect of an arrangement like this is to keep the grow room at a slightly negative air pressure all the time with exhausted air being pushed through a carbon filter. This will prevent unfiltered air containing scents from escaping the room. 




mustve missed that, earlier but saw it my 3rd time around. ​




*


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 26, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Good read! Even though it makes complete sense to me, many people would read this and disregard it without any consideration.


 And they do so at their own peril. 


> People, as a whole, have never really been very good at critical thinking. I do agree its getting worse, but I would say a majority of the public is ignorant pertaining to logic, deductive reasoning and general critical thinking. At least in my region! I don't think I'm intellectually superior to most people per se, but I do acknowledge my ability to think logically and critically while I deduce that most people do not, making me sound like a pretentious self righteous asshole occasionally, ahahahah.


 I don't find anything pretentious in the least about being objectively correct. 



> I'm an expert at very few things, but it amazes me how absolutely clueless people can be with access to so many resources to information. I think reading the Reader's Digest would make one sound like a Harvard graduate to some people.


 Anti-intellectualism is stupid (see what I did there?  ).



> Having said all that I still love organic fertilizers because they're so damn easy to work with. Have a good day all!


 Depends on what you mean by 'easy to work with.' I find the hoops one must jump through with organic nutes in hydroponics to be unnecessarily complex, particularly as regards pathogen control.



Bigz2277 said:


> Very good couple articles there Al!


Thanks.



> How is the STG hail working for you?




STG cubes are working really quite well with 2 of 3 plants in STG cubes performing above average compared to other plants in the same batch in Fytocell. However, I think that plants in STG would benefit from being watered 2x/day. Since the plants in STG are sharing a tray with others in Fytocell, I could only water the entire tray 1x/day. I have yet to run a whole tray of plants in STG cubes. From a practical aspect, I do like how neat and clean the STG cubes are to use. No bits of stuff all over the place, as happens when you use pots stuffed with Fytocell only. I have long used a 25mm layer of rockwool floc in the bottoms of pots I intend to fill with Fytocell to keep the crumbs in the pots, which does work, but also prevents the Fytocell from draining fully. I have an experimental batch of plants that is in Fytocell only with no layer of floc in the bottoms- and there's bits of the stuff everywhere- in the trays & in the tanks. Real mess to clean up- and the bits floating in the tanks provide a hospitable home for algae & other crap. So far, I'm hopeful for STG and will probably buy enough to run a couple of full trays to see how they go when the watering can be tailored to STG's water holding capacity.



Surrealestate said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> As always thanks for the info. It means a lot to those of us who need it.


No worries. 



> Question for you. What do you surmise contributes to smoke that is harsh with a less than fragrant odor and little taste? Most everything I can find blames curing/drying methods. Thoughts?


A few things could cause that- overdrying (curable by nesting a paper towel dampened with a teaspoon of water or two in with the buds in a sealed container for a few hours), poor quality DNA or leaving too much leaf on the buds when manicuring.



hxvoc said:


> Hey al, if you run your exhaust on a thermostat or a timer that cuts the fan off totally throughout the day then how do you maintain negative pressure in your room to avoid smell leaking out?
> 
> 
> EDIT!
> ...


Yep.


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## Rick Ratlin (Jun 28, 2012)

Great pics Al. Couple Q's, I'm upgrading in size to your set up. I'm shopping for trays, and looking for 3x3 trays. Most trays on the market are 3'x3' inner diameter, with an outside diameter of 41". I can special order 3'x3' outer diameter trays, but shipping is expensive. could I get good coverage from the 41" x 41" outside diameter trays? 2 under each 1k adjust a wing. 
Finally I made the trip to get canna aqua flores nutes. How many ml of a and b do you add per gallon, and what ec do you get? I haven't gotten the npk booster yet, they were out of stock. 
Also, as I'm setting up my new room, I just stripped and painted everything. The house is on a concrete slab. Can I paint the floor, and if so, what kind of paint?
Thanks Al! Here's the current garden, two 3'x2' trays under a 600w cool tube aaw.


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## Shwagbag (Jun 28, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> And they do so at their own peril.
> 
> 
> I don't find anything pretentious in the least about being objectively correct.
> ...


I don't use organics in hydro, just for super soil. I wouldn't even go there based on everything I've learned from reading your threads. My gardening time is limited so "just add water" is the most time efficient method for me  Someday I'm going to build a model of your op though! Absolutely love it


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## hxvoc (Jun 28, 2012)

does anyone know the formula to get the correct odosage of h202? I can only get 29% in my area. trying to keep the same dosage as AL has been using


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## Gyroscope (Jun 28, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> does anyone know the formula to get the correct odosage of h202? I can only get 29% in my area. trying to keep the same dosage as AL has been using


If I am not mistaken, I think he usually recommends 1.7ml per Liter for your strength.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 30, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> does anyone know the formula to get the correct odosage of h202? I can only get 29% in my area. trying to keep the same dosage as AL has been using


50/29=1.7241379310344827586206896551724ml/L


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 30, 2012)

Rick Ratlin said:


> Great pics Al. Couple Q's, I'm upgrading in size to your set up. I'm shopping for trays, and looking for 3x3 trays. Most trays on the market are 3'x3' inner diameter, with an outside diameter of 41". I can special order 3'x3' outer diameter trays, but shipping is expensive. could I get good coverage from the 41" x 41" outside diameter trays? 2 under each 1k adjust a wing.
> Finally I made the trip to get canna aqua flores nutes. How many ml of a and b do you add per gallon, and what ec do you get? I haven't gotten the npk booster yet, they were out of stock.
> Also, as I'm setting up my new room, I just stripped and painted everything. The house is on a concrete slab. Can I paint the floor, and if so, what kind of paint?
> Thanks Al! Here's the current garden, two 3'x2' trays under a 600w cool tube aaw.
> View attachment 2231457


If your trays are slightly bigger than you need, no big deal. Just fill them to the limits of the light coverage. 

I use 500ml (ea, a & B) in my 125L tanks, for tank 1, 2 & 4. Tank 3 is for weeks 5 & 6- it gets 375ml A & B and 125ml PK13-14. 

You can paint the floor if you want but it's not necessary. If you do, get a recommendation from your local paint supply shop for a paint that will survive being wet frequently- perhaps some sort of outdoor patio paint. 

Looks nice, keep after it. 



Shwagbag said:


> I don't use organics in hydro, just for super soil. I wouldn't even go there based on everything I've learned from reading your threads. My gardening time is limited so "just add water" is the most time efficient method for me  Someday I'm going to build a model of your op though! Absolutely love it


Ah, OK. 

Thanks for that. My op is designed for maximum utility, not maximum yield. I could probably increase the output of the op with something like aeroponics or NFT but the flood systems are just so stupidly easy to use & maintain (that is, no maintenance at all) and the op makes more dope than I need already. Wait, did I just say that?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 30, 2012)

Rick Ratlin said:


> View attachment 2231457


oh, one thing I might suggest for your op is flood tray stands made from square aluminium tubing & plastic Qubelok connectors. This will allow you to easily scoot your tanks out from under the trays for easier cleaning, dumping, etc.


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## Gyroscope (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> 50/29=1.7241379310344827586206896551724ml/L


Where can I get a graduated cylinder that will accommodate this ^^?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 30, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> Where can I get a graduated cylinder that will accommodate this ^^?


heh. Obviously, you round to 1.7ml/L. Was just showing my maths so you see how I got there!

It's not critical that you measure terribly precisely.


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## Gyroscope (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> heh. Obviously, you round to 1.7ml/L. Was just showing my maths so you see how I got there!
> 
> It's not critical that you measure terribly precisely.


You know I was just kidding.

Those have been some nice pics you have been posting.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jun 30, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> You know I was just kidding.


Of course. 



> Those have been some nice pics you have been posting.


Thanks. 



I rather like this one.


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## Gyroscope (Jun 30, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that one is nice too !!!


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## hxvoc (Jun 30, 2012)

thanks for the math lesson guys. on my first flood table now, have had the clones in there 2 weeks and havent seen any growth yet. not even roots coming out the bottom of my 6 inch pots. im so frustrated with this, ready to go back to soil where i was seing growth everyday


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 1, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> thanks for the math lesson guys. on my first flood table now, have had the clones in there 2 weeks and havent seen any growth yet. not even roots coming out the bottom of my 6 inch pots. im so frustrated with this, ready to go back to soil where i was seing growth everyday


Whats the conditions of your flood table res? Medium used?


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## fandango (Jul 1, 2012)

Al...your the man....got my trays up an running now...after spending many days reading this thread.
Hard part now is waiting 60 days....dang clones are 12" tall now after only 2 weeks!
running 3 trays on 2600w


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## hxvoc (Jul 1, 2012)

using hydroton, 30 gal res running lucas formula at 8-16 at 900ppm and my tap water is naturally 150 ppm. only thing i added was h202 was flooding 3 times during the 12 hour light cycle but just jumped it up to 4 times. hard to tell if there getting nute burn do to the yellowing tip from cloning. just dont see any new growth in almost 2 weeks, its insane


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## hxvoc (Jul 1, 2012)

@ fandango

What ppm are u running your res at for newly rooted clones. how can AL get away with running at 1000 ppm? its like the plants havent moved any in 2 weeks. really getting descouraged


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## hxvoc (Jul 1, 2012)

My next batch of clones just all shitted on me for the first time and i got to get this thing going or ill be homeless in 2 months. tight time schedule. almost wishing i had stayed with soil.


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 1, 2012)

Water temp? Warmer temps lead to root issues.


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## hxvoc (Jul 1, 2012)

i dont even know the exact temp of my res. but with h202 regualrly and planty of air stones i was under the impression it wasnt that critical.


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## fandango (Jul 1, 2012)

To tell you the truth...I have been on a super tight budget lately due to lack of construction work.
Here's what I am running.
GH test kit(a few drops into a half full shot glass)First my water from the well is in the green range,so I mix 4 gallon batches.I add 5ml PH down.This brings the water into the yellow zone(5-6)
on my clones after they root(over in the clone room)I have 7" pots waitng for them in a tray(botanicare)that holds 49 pots.I fill the bottom of the pots with rock wool to stop the perlite from escaping.the 1-1/2"rw cubes ar showing roots and go into the pot.they are fed 1/4 strength part A and part B.
res is filled with 35 gallons.12/12 light cycle
flood once aday until the tray is 2-3" deep


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## Rick Ratlin (Jul 1, 2012)

Thanks Al, I've built rolling trays for the new op that will allow just that. Those are just 3'x4, wooden tables, and the reservoirs pull out quite easily. The panda film is just to keep the light out. With these new rolling trays, I'm thinking I'll rotate each tray every 3 days, instead of moving individual pots. Hopefully, this will keep growth even and avoid any hotspots.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 2, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> thanks for the math lesson guys. on my first flood table now, have had the clones in there 2 weeks and havent seen any growth yet. not even roots coming out the bottom of my 6 inch pots. im so frustrated with this, ready to go back to soil where i was seing growth everyday


 Sounds like overwatering. What medium, watering system type & watering schedule are you using?



fandango said:


> Al...your the man....got my trays up an running now...after spending many days reading this thread.
> Hard part now is waiting 60 days....dang clones are 12" tall now after only 2 weeks!
> running 3 trays on 2600w


 Thanks. All sounds as it should be. Good luck. 



hxvoc said:


> using hydroton, 30 gal res running lucas formula at 8-16 at 900ppm and my tap water is naturally 150 ppm. only thing i added was h202 was flooding 3 times during the 12 hour light cycle but just jumped it up to 4 times. hard to tell if there getting nute burn do to the yellowing tip from cloning. just dont see any new growth in almost 2 weeks, its insane


 What medium did you use for cloning? RW cubes? If so, are the bottoms of the cubes above the flood level? What persuaded you to use 'Lucas formula' instead of standard mfr's instructions for nute mixtures?



hxvoc said:


> My next batch of clones just all shitted on me for the first time and i got to get this thing going or ill be homeless in 2 months. tight time schedule. almost wishing i had stayed with soil.


 The usual cause for failure of clones is overwatering.



Bigz2277 said:


> Water temp? Warmer temps lead to root issues.


 It can, but I think there's something else going on here.



hxvoc said:


> i dont even know the exact temp of my res. but with h202 regualrly and planty of air stones i was under the impression it wasnt that critical.


Water temp isn't generally critical unless it's way wrong. 

I appreciate others trying to answer queries, but when they're directed at me, please leave them to me to answer. Yes, I'm not always able to get to queries every day, but I do the best I can. 



fandango said:


> To tell you the truth...I have been on a super tight budget lately due to lack of construction work.
> Here's what I am running.
> GH test kit(a few drops into a half full shot glass)First my water from the well is in the green range,so I mix 4 gallon batches.I add 5ml PH down.This brings the water into the yellow zone(5-6)
> on my clones after they root(over in the clone room)I have 7" pots waitng for them in a tray(botanicare)that holds 49 pots.I fill the bottom of the pots with rock wool to stop the perlite from escaping.the 1-1/2"rw cubes ar showing roots and go into the pot.they are fed 1/4 strength part A and part B.
> ...


"A few drops" is not a precise enough method for nute concentrate measurement. You need a decent graduated cylinder or measuring cup for nutes as well as a 10ml syringe for measuring pH Down, which is normally used in ml quantities (I only need 2ml in 125L when mixing up a fresh tank of nutes. 

Also, colour matching pH test kits are simply not accurate enough; it's just not good enough to know pH is between 5-6. You need 0.1 resolution. Get a good electronic pH meter. 

I prefer Eutech's waterproof pH Tester 10, though there are other good, reliable meters. Avoid Hanna meters. Don't buy cheap meters- you get precisely what you pay for- and cheap is false economy. Make sure you have at least pH 4 & 7 reference calibration solutions on hand and calibrate your meter before *EACH* use. Keep the probe tip damp by putting a bit of dampened sponge in the meter cap. Sterilise the bit of sponge with a strong (1ml 50% H2O2 in 9ml water) H2O2 solution once a week. Use the glass probe cleaner provided with the pH meter once a week. If you see fungal growth on the pH probe tip, clean with aforementioned H2O2 solution & an old toothbrush. 



Rick Ratlin said:


> Thanks Al, I've built rolling trays for the new op that will allow just that. Those are just 3'x4, wooden tables, and the reservoirs pull out quite easily. The panda film is just to keep the light out. With these new rolling trays, I'm thinking I'll rotate each tray every 3 days, instead of moving individual pots. Hopefully, this will keep growth even and avoid any hotspots.


Sounds OK. Good luck.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 2, 2012)

Pix du jour. 


Tray 1. Note vigorous growth indicated by light green colour of growing tips & new leaves.


Tray 2. This batch is screaming! Will be a heavy yielder. 


Tray 3 in the background. Not as happy with this batch- had some rosetting (failure of stems to elongate). Will yield some, but not as well as it should. 


Tray 4. Also some rosetting in this batch. Not sure of the cause of that with this one or the tray 3 batch; it'll yield some but not near as well as it should. 


Overhead shot; this is as wide a shot as I can get without a fisheye lens. Room is really no larger than absolutely necessary for the trays & some space for me to work in it.


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## hxvoc (Jul 2, 2012)

im watering about 30 mins after the lights come on and one time about 6 hours in about an hour before the lights go out. IM gonna get you some pics to look at Al. This is my first run in F&D. I decided to go this route do to Envy of your op. The Lucas formula just seems like it would be easier.

I have Advanced Nutrient 3 part along with some of there additives but puting the additives on the shelf is fine if the 3 part will get it done. I should still be considered a n00b  But i do have a few soil grows under my belt and I have spent countless dollars on reputable equipment regardless if it was necessary or not.

My clones did get over watered and it didnt take long before the clone reaper was in my tent. lol

I still have a couple moms, but only about 6 clones on the 3x3 table now hoping to get something out of this in 60 days. I will get some pictures up for you tonite, maybe that will give you a better idea of what i have going on.

By the way, Your setup is sick!


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## hxvoc (Jul 2, 2012)

1 more note Al, My ppm meter reads at a .5 conversion i realized last nite.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 3, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> im watering about 30 mins after the lights come on and one time about 6 hours in about an hour before the lights go out. IM gonna get you some pics to look at Al. This is my first run in F&D. I decided to go this route do to Envy of your op.


Thanks. Sounds OK. 



> The Lucas formula just seems like it would be easier.
> 
> I have Advanced Nutrient 3 part along with some of there additives but puting the additives on the shelf is fine if the 3 part will get it done. I should still be considered a n00b  But i do have a few soil grows under my belt and I have spent countless dollars on reputable equipment regardless if it was necessary or not.


Equal amounts of a 2-part nutrient is a much easier way to go.



> My clones did get over watered and it didnt take long before the clone reaper was in my tent. lol


Ouch. 



> I still have a couple moms, but only about 6 clones on the 3x3 table now hoping to get something out of this in 60 days.


Yep. I'm sure your next batch of clones will do better. Admittedly, getting the watering right when cloning in RW cubes is difficult & is an acquired skill. Review my thread on _*cloning in rockwool*_ if you need a refresher. 



> I will get some pictures up for you tonite, maybe that will give you a better idea of what i have going on.


OK 



> By the way, Your setup is sick!


ZOMFSM should I call a doctor? 

heh. Thanks. 



hxvoc said:


> 1 more note Al, My ppm meter reads at a .5 conversion i realized last nite.


Hmm? Don't understand what you mean.


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## hxvoc (Jul 3, 2012)

i was told some meters read at .7 and some at .5 , if your running 1000 ppm on a .7 conversion it will read a little different then my meter at .5 conversion. I was actually using rapid rooters and have had 100% success rate up until this time. I was rushing the clones trying to hurry them on the table. 

yes i understand the 2 equal parts would be easier and im definetly research something alot simpler, maybe even flora nova line.

Im checking my ph daily and its staying very close to 5.8, do you let your ph drift a little or do you adjust daily? ive read alot of post and some seem to have success with letting the ph drift slightly up and down. 

My damn camera was dead last night, so pics tonite after my op comes online around 7 eastern time. im attempting to copy 1/2 of your op as to get a harvest every month.

also i have left the lid off my res as ive read you leave yours off due to humidity causing problems in the res. Dosing 29% h202 every 4 days at 7ml per gal in my 30 gal res. I think i might be seeing some new growth on some of the clones but i wouldnt even think of comparing these 2 weeker's tothose monsters in your 3-4 week tray.

my grow space is dialed in nicely so im just down to this F&D thing getting worked out. im only running one tray right now till i can get a nute/flood schedule written in stone. I feel better knowing that im getting help from the man i learned almost everything i know from. 

Thanks Al for taking time to help the little people, lol


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## Shwagbag (Jul 3, 2012)

I was going to suggest trying rapid rooters if you're having issues with rockwool. They are definitely more suitable for me personally and my success rate is higher with them than any other method I've used in the past... I'm sure your success will return if you just get back to business. Good luck with the rest, hopefully Al can get you straightened out.


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## cindysid (Jul 3, 2012)

Hi Al, I am curious about the rosetting you were talking about. I have a Kalashnikova outdoors that seems to have this problem if I am understanding correctly. I am posting a pic. Do you have any idea what causes this? This particular plant came out of the seed with 3 cotyledons instead of 2. Could that have caused this, and what will happen with this plant...less yield?


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## hxvoc (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks Shwag! 

Im getting back to business! My aero-cloner is fired up and I have a few clones in there now. im hoping to get a better developed root system before i put them in the hydroton and getting this show on the road!

Im sure Al can whip me into shape on my new flood table adventure as i think my main problem is getting my nutes dialed in. Thanks for all the help guys!


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## Rick Ratlin (Jul 5, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> using hydroton, 30 gal res running lucas formula at 8-16 at 900ppm and my tap water is naturally 150 ppm. only thing i added was h202 was flooding 3 times during the 12 hour light cycle but just jumped it up to 4 times. hard to tell if there getting nute burn do to the yellowing tip from cloning. just dont see any new growth in almost 2 weeks, its insane


 Al, since you don't run gh nutes, I thought I could make some suggestions here. If you're into feeding low, try startin with these ratios, and tailor to your garden's needs. Also, ALWAYS add micro first. nute lockout will occur
VEG- 10-5-3 Grow/Micro/Bloom incidentally, this ratio is great for tomato plants all season long. Should read around 1.2 EC for RO water
BLOOM- first 2 weeks- 2-5-5 plus 5 ml/gal liquid kool bloom
week 3-4 0-4-6 plus 6ml Liquid Kool Bloom
week 5-6 0-4-7 plus 6ml LKB
week 7-8 0-4-5 plus 1g/gal powder kool bloom

If you don't have the liquid or powder kool bloom, just go with this.
week 1 grow/micro/bloom 5-5-5
week 2-3 2-6-10 
week 4-5 0-8-16
week 6-to finish 0-6-12

Again, I'm not trying to step on your toes Al. This is only a suggestion, as I ran gh 3 part with hydroton sterilized as well. This is a starting point, as every grow op has its own variables to account for. GH nutes can be a lil salty, so top flush with plain water every week. FWIW, I always experienced slow starting growth when the clones went into the hydroton without a nice full root set, or if I watered too high. Best of luck!


----------



## hxvoc (Jul 5, 2012)

I think maybe ive been watering to high. im also doing a little pheno hunting with these 5 querkles i got, well i pulled the obvious male last nite and the root mass was only halfway down in the hydroton. They were in there for 2 weeks I would think the roots would be at least to the bottom. 

Also, When my lights first come on, I can list up the pot and the bottom hydroton is still wet from the last watering before lights out. From what i have read, you need roots to search out the water and as long as the hydroton is staying wet there not going to stretch out. 

My nutes seem to be fine as my ph is staying right around 5.8 without adjusting, my ppm rises after a few days without top-up but that is normal from what i understand. I do have to ph adjust after topping off due to me using tap water, but it never strays after i set it at 5.8

Thanks guys and any help is appreciated. will be uploading pics as soon as i get this mess in the lab cleaned up


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 5, 2012)

Hay there. 

As I've said before, every 2 weeks, I'm busier than a 1-legged asskicker, and it's that time again. I won't be checking in for at least 5, perhaps 6 days while I get this work done. 

While I'm away, JUST SAY NO to myths, rumours and non-scientific thinking. 

*kisses* 

-Al.B


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## Gyroscope (Jul 6, 2012)

I guess I shouldn't tell the tale of how I grew a pound of buds under a 90 watt UFO with magic sauce....


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## fandango (Jul 10, 2012)

Cloning in rock wool,

thanks Al....just read the thread again.
my clones were to wet for awhile,they set under a dome(high desert air here)average temps summer time 75-95 farienheit(sp)
I spray inside the dome several times aday.some cubes rw are moist than I dip a corner in water.No roots after 12 days?should I make a solution of 1/4 strength nutes to promote roots that may be in the middle of the rock wool?


----------



## xtract44 (Jul 10, 2012)

Just wanted to pipe in and say the only time i have EVER had problems with my roots was when I decided to try the whole Molasses thing about 2 years ago. They got nice and slimy...I drained the res took all the babies and washed the roots in the sink. Molasses was some of the worst advice I ever applied from the internet...


----------



## hxvoc (Jul 12, 2012)

anyone know the minimum dosage for the 29% h202? My res is beautiful and ive been using it a different dosages. The bottle says 3 ml per gallon then add to res every 3 days. But al's dosage calls for alot more than that if im not mistaken. Anyone have any input?


----------



## mountainboy (Jul 12, 2012)

Al I know your away for a bit, But I have a few questions. I know you dont use hydroton, but you are the most knowledgeable person on this site IMO. So just a few questions before I start my grow.

1. I am using GH 3 part nutes,E&F in hydroton 6x6in.sq pots,4x4 table,1000w hps. Well rooted clones going str8 to 12/12. I am unsure of what strength to start at, thought you might have some ideas. I was going to use the seedling/cutting strength but I want to go str8 to 12/12. 

2. I'm not even sure if this is a question you can answer with out knowing more info, but I'll find out from your reply...lol, as I am growing in hydroton only, should I expect to flood newly transplanted clones more often. Say for the first week or so after transplanting. These clones are from a bubble clonner and used to alot of water so I dont want to shock them. Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.


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## hxvoc (Jul 12, 2012)

i Have almost the same thing in the works mountainboy, Im running a 3x3 with 600 hps. I am wondering about these things as well. When i moved new cuttings into flower i think i wasnt flooding enough and the roots dried out causing slowth growth initially. Eager to see what Al says about this.


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 13, 2012)

Al uses the 50% h202, so if your using the same doses as him your fine, could step it up a bit and be ok as well.


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## Gyroscope (Jul 13, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> anyone know the minimum dosage for the 29% h202? My res is beautiful and ive been using it a different dosages. The bottle says 3 ml per gallon then add to res every 3 days. But al's dosage calls for alot more than that if im not mistaken. Anyone have any input?


We answered this for you 2 weeks ago...



hxvoc said:


> does anyone know the formula to get the correct odosage of h202? I can only get 29% in my area. trying to keep the same dosage as AL has been using





Gyroscope said:


> If I am not mistaken, I think he usually recommends 1.7ml per Liter for your strength.





Al B. Fuct said:


> 50/29=1.7241379310344827586206896551724ml/L


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 13, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> We answered this for you 2 weeks ago...


i thought it sounded familiar ll


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## hxvoc (Jul 13, 2012)

Yes that is true, just wasnt sure if what the bottle recommended was ok for weekly doses. Thanks guys, sorry for the mix up. workin on getting some 35% h202 by the mad farmer. my local store only carries the 1 liters for 15 bucks and there ripping my nuts off.


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## tenthirty (Jul 14, 2012)

Best price for h202 i have found online is about $25/gal for 4 at a time. 35%.


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## *BUDS (Jul 16, 2012)

Al ,just wondering what is that stuff that kills gnat larvae in the rootmass that you use?


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## trichome fiend (Jul 21, 2012)

....sup Al! ...thought I'd share some of my funk  ...TGA's, "Querkle"


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## tyler.durden (Jul 22, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ....sup Al! ...thought I'd share some of my funk  ...TGA's, "Querkle"
> 
> View attachment 2263397View attachment 2263396View attachment 2263395View attachment 2263398View attachment 2263399


Goddamn, man! Those are some beautiful plants and even nicer buds. Is there any veg time at all, or do you go 12/12 right from clone? The only strain I have that gets that tall is NY-47, my Trainwreck, OG Kush and NL #5 only get about 10 inches or so from clone with no veg. Great job, thanks for sharing...


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## trichome fiend (Jul 22, 2012)

....yeah, they did get a veg life, about a week or so....thankx man.


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## tyler.durden (Jul 28, 2012)

Hey, Al! I hope all is well these days. I run a sog set up patterned after yours (I've read all your threads, thanks for all the great info!), but mine is scaled down; 4 - 3x2 trays holding 22 plants each under a pair of Sun Systems Magnum XXXLs air-cooled hoods using Digilux 600w HPS bulbs. Got a hanging panda mom tent in the corner with 12 moms of 4 different strains. I use a 36 site aero-cloner, and take the best 22 every to weeks. I use perlite with mini-rockwool cubes packed at the bottom in my 5.5 inch square pots. After I pot my newly rooted clones, I leave them in the bedroom to make sure they get over the transplant shock and make sure they're standing tall and taking up the nute solution before I put them under the HPS in the flowering room. The problem is that most of them wilt under the HPS for the first few days before they get used to the environment. The HPS is about 2 feet away, but the wilting issue persists. The room temp is between 72 to 78 max (air-conditioned now, it's summer in the States ) and humidity hovers between 45 - 55%. Any advice to help with the wilting? It scares me, and I've lost a less-hearty little girl here and there...


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## Taurich (Jul 29, 2012)

Hey Al

I'm using an adaptation of your SoG method
I've only got two flower tents (1.25m x 1.25m, 1000w HPS each), a separate box with a 400w MH, and a propagation box (some fluro's)
Currently I'm doing it like this

*Prop Box (24/0):*

3 weeks -> Move to veg box
*Veg box (24/0):*

2 weeks -> Move to empty tent
*Tents (12/12):*

Clones taken on day of move -> prop box
Bottom 1/3-1/2 of plant trimmed
10 weeks - alternating with other tent to be 5 weeks apart.

This allows me to harvest every 5 weeks. At time of harvest I have a fresh batch of healthy, robust plants about 16-20 inches high ready to go in the now empty tent. The harvested bud is manicured and dries in darkness in the veg box, ventilated with a few computer fans. The veg box is turned off for up to 3 weeks, allowing for ample time to dry the bud.

The plants get about 4-4.5ft high with a mild touch of PGR, but I would like to get rid of this additive if possible. Currently I am using 4 inch rockwool cubes in flood and drain. Running 20 in each tent but could fit more. Not sure of the output tbh because I've only just started doing it like this, the last grow was 6 plants that had been topped to 4-5 main heads each, made about 10-11oz. I was running canna nutes, a touch of calmag (I'm on tankwater), a little of the PGR, and this stuff a mate gave me called liquid lead (it's supposed to be some sort of yield enhancer. It was given to me so I figured might as well. I'll use it until it runs out and then see how the harvests turn out without it)
Now I'm looking to improve on yield any way I can, as well as decrease my harvest time to 4 weeks if possible. My strains are sour kush and ak48, and require a fairly long bloom time for the amber trichs to appear so I have to keep it to 10 weeks flowering.

This setup I have is a bit stretchy tbh, the plants get tall. I thought I could adjust the timer on my veg box to be 12/12 and become a preflower box, hopefully the blue spectrum from the MH should inhibit some stretch, and this would also cut the time in the flower tent to 8 weeks instead of 10 ie, 4 week harvest instead of 5. The downside of this is that to fit the new schedule I would have to reduce the prop box time to 2 weeks, and as the plants have 3 weeks less growth at cloning they might be too small to support the abuse. I'm trying to avoid flip-flipping the plants from veg to flower and back to veg here, but I don't really know anything about cloning so maybe I'm doing the wrong thing, is it better to wait a week into flowering before taking the clones? There's a lot of confusing information on the subject, I really don't know.
The main goal here is to eliminate PGR use altogether, as well as use the equipment I have in some useful fashion (MH lamp), also I don't like the idea of having to maintain a mother plant

I'd also like to ask you about CO2. Is it practical? I'm in Australia and have limited resources. I'd rather not be messing about with complex automated valve systems and expensive bulky cylinders. I'd also like something a bit more reliable than a bucket of yeast. I was thinking of dry ice, but I don't know where to source it, and I'm concerned about the cooling effect it will have on the air as I understand you want higher air temps with CO2. Also I'd like something that won't kill me or the dog if possible, any ideas?

Speaking of Australia, I would absolutely love to get my hands on some of that STG you've been using. How's that been working out by the way? Have you got any clue where I can source it over here? Neither google or their website were any help, and I'm sick and tired of this rockwool crap. Desperate for a quality medium like STG.

Now the obligatory voodoo question, I know that blue light inhibits stretch, and red light promotes flowering, is there any practical use to supplemental LED's? I'm talking like maybe 1-200w of LED in a strip (I could DIY that with chinese eBay LED's) somewhere in the tent, just for an added boost in an appropriate point in the spectrum. I mean I haven't done any costing or anything so it could be wildly impractical, but setting price aside would there be any use to doing something like this in conjunction with the lights I already have?

Oh and I have it on good authority that if I sacrifice a goat on winter solstice while dancing the macarana I can expect to double my yield, thought on the subject?

Thanks for all your help


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## reggaerican (Jul 29, 2012)

so what if I only have hydrogen peroxide 3% should I dump the whole frickn 16oz bottle in my 30 gal rez?? 
I will try to go buy the 50% but what if I dont find it..
I need help and fast. I lost one plant already and I fear the rest are close behind..


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## reggaerican (Jul 29, 2012)

I just went to pluck a dead leaf off and the whole frickn stem came out of the rock..


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## Gyroscope (Jul 29, 2012)

Oh crap...so sad bro !


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## Shwagbag (Jul 29, 2012)

Hit up natural food stores for 35%. That sucks dude, I feel for you.


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## Southtexasman87 (Jul 29, 2012)

I left some clones I took this morning out on the patio and the hot late afternoon sun was beating down on them I hope tiger ok to!! And I hopeople the rest of your plants are ok good luck on that!!


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 29, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> i was told some meters read at .7 and some at .5 , if your running 1000 ppm on a .7 conversion it will read a little different then my meter at .5 conversion.


 Ah, OK. 

Here's a table from Cannaversity that may be of help. 





> yes i understand the 2 equal parts would be easier and im definetly research something alot simpler, maybe even flora nova line.


 As long as Flora Nova not organic, give it a try. 


> Im checking my ph daily and its staying very close to 5.8, do you let your ph drift a little or do you adjust daily? ive read alot of post and some seem to have success with letting the ph drift slightly up and down.


 You can let it wander upward 0.2, but that's the high & outside. 

If you have at least 5L of tank volume, the pH & TDS should remain steady as the res level drops over the 2-week lifetime of a tank of nutes. 



> Dosing 29% h202 every 4 days at 7ml per gal in my 30 gal res. I think i might be seeing some new growth on some of the clones but i wouldnt even think of comparing these 2 weeker's to those monsters in your 3-4 week tray.


 Please make friends with the metric system. 1 gallon is 3.8L. You do have your ratio right for 29%, which should be about 1.8ml/L. 



cindysid said:


> Hi Al, I am curious about the rosetting you were talking about. I have a Kalashnikova outdoors that seems to have this problem if I am understanding correctly. I am posting a pic. Do you have any idea what causes this? This particular plant came out of the seed with 3 cotyledons instead of 2. Could that have caused this, and what will happen with this plant...less yield?


 3 cotyledons? A _*cotyledon*_ is a part of a seed. 

The rosetting in my plants was being caused by fungus gnat larvae damaging my roots. I'm taking measures to sort that out; yellow sticky fly trams & application of Scarid 10, a cat 3a insecticide containing Deltamethrin (30ml/L with a few drops of liquid dish soap as a wetting agent, applied as a spray). Rosetting indicates root system damage and will definitely reduce yield due to poor overall plant development.



Rick Ratlin said:


> Al, since you don't run gh nutes, I thought I could make some suggestions here. If you're into feeding low, try startin with these ratios, and tailor to your garden's needs. Also, ALWAYS add micro first. nute lockout will occur
> VEG- 10-5-3 Grow/Micro/Bloom incidentally, this ratio is great for tomato plants all season long. Should read around 1.2 EC for RO water
> BLOOM- first 2 weeks- 2-5-5 plus 5 ml/gal liquid kool bloom
> week 3-4 0-4-6 plus 6ml Liquid Kool Bloom
> ...


 If this is GH's mixing recommendation, fine... but it sounds immensely complex. I strongly prefer a 2-part nutrient, where, as with Canna (Aqua) it's as simple as 3ml/L each of A&B.



hxvoc said:


> I think maybe ive been watering to high. im also doing a little pheno hunting with these 5 querkles i got, well i pulled the obvious male last nite and the root mass was only halfway down in the hydroton. They were in there for 2 weeks I would think the roots would be at least to the bottom.
> 
> Also, When my lights first come on, I can list up the pot and the bottom hydroton is still wet from the last watering before lights out. From what i have read, you need roots to search out the water and as long as the hydroton is staying wet there not going to stretch out.
> 
> ...


 If the flood level is high enough to wet the rockwool cube, you're going to have problems. 

Yes, topping up with plain tap water will cause the pH to rise. If your res has at least 5L/plant capacity, you should not really have to top up the tanks nor adjust pH during the 2 week life of a tank of nutes.



Gyroscope said:


> I guess I shouldn't tell the tale of how I grew a pound of buds under a 90 watt UFO with magic sauce....


 And you should definitely leave out the part about mole-asses. 



fandango said:


> Cloning in rock wool,
> 
> thanks Al....just read the thread again.
> my clones were to wet for awhile,they set under a dome(high desert air here)average temps summer time 75-95 farienheit(sp)
> I spray inside the dome several times a day.some cubes rw are moist than I dip a corner in water.No roots after 12 days?should I make a solution of 1/4 strength nutes to promote roots that may be in the middle of the rock wool?


 95F is waaaay too hot. 30C max. I don't use humidomes. The point of them is to prevent wilt by limiting transpiration through the leaves. However, the cutting should be able to get enough water through the stem cut to prevent wilt, even with very low humidity. Also, I've never misted a clone, ever- and I don't control humidity in my clone box either; in fact, the clone box has a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan- the tstat is set to 28C. If a clone is wilting, there's a good chance the RW cube has been overwatered and the stem tip has begun to rot. In this instance, I'll recut the stem, removing any rot, and poke it in a new RW cube. 

Don't add nutes to clone watering solutions. Nitrogen in the solution will slow rooting. Are you using a heat mat? A good horticultural heat mat, set to 30C (or fixed temp at 30C), will speed things along. You should have roots out of the bottom of the cubes in no more than 10 days. If it's taking longer, soemthing else is wrong, most likely overwatering. Remember, cubes should be damp, never wet or saturated. If you're not using them, use 40mm plastic wrapped cubes. The bigger ones stay wet too long.



xtract44 said:


> Just wanted to pipe in and say the only time i have EVER had problems with my roots was when I decided to try the whole Molasses thing about 2 years ago. They got nice and slimy...I drained the res took all the babies and washed the roots in the sink. Molasses was some of the worst advice I ever applied from the internet...


 And how. Mole-asses may have some purpose in organic soil-based cultivation (feeds microbes which break down manures and compost into N, P & K) but should never be used in inorganic hydroponic culture. In hydroponics, mole-asses only feed pathogens which generally cause root rot. Also can attract insects. Avoid at all costs.



hxvoc said:


> anyone know the minimum dosage for the 29% h202? My res is beautiful and ive been using it a different dosages. The bottle says 3 ml per gallon then add to res every 3 days. But al's dosage calls for alot more than that if im not mistaken. Anyone have any input?


 Use 29% at 1.8ml/L.



mountainboy said:


> Al I know your away for a bit, But I have a few questions. I know you dont use hydroton, but you are the most knowledgeable person on this site IMO. So just a few questions before I start my grow.
> 
> 1. I am using GH 3 part nutes,E&F in hydroton 6x6in.sq pots,4x4 table,1000w hps. Well rooted clones going str8 to 12/12. I am unsure of what strength to start at, thought you might have some ideas. I was going to use the seedling/cutting strength but I want to go str8 to 12/12.
> 
> 2. I'm not even sure if this is a question you can answer with out knowing more info, but I'll find out from your reply...lol, as I am growing in hydroton only, should I expect to flood newly transplanted clones more often. Say for the first week or so after transplanting. These clones are from a bubble clonner and used to alot of water so I dont want to shock them. Any thoughts and comments are appreciated.


 You can start at 1000ppm (Truncheon) or 1.4-1.5 EC and maintain that through the flowering period.



Bigz2277 said:


> Al uses the 50% h202, so if your using the same doses as him your fine, could step it up a bit and be ok as well.


 The rate for 50% H2O2 is 1ml/L.



tenthirty said:


> Best price for h202 i have found online is about $25/gal for 4 at a time. 35%.


 I've persuaded my local hydro shop to stock 25kg jugs of 50% H2O2- about $100. Lasts months.



*BUDS said:


> Al ,just wondering what is that stuff that kills gnat larvae in the rootmass that you use?


 Scarid 10.



trichome fiend said:


> ....sup Al! ...thought I'd share some of my funk  ...TGA's, "Querkle"


 Noice. 



trichome fiend said:


> ....yeah, they did get a veg life, about a week or so....thankx man.


 You can eliminate the veg period and get more compact plants. Vegging makes your plants taller than they need to be, which will reduce the density of the buds down low on the plants due to the limitations of light penetration.



tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Al! I hope all is well these days. I run a sog set up patterned after yours (I've read all your threads, thanks for all the great info!), but mine is scaled down; 4 - 3x2 trays holding 22 plants each under a pair of Sun Systems Magnum XXXLs air-cooled hoods using Digilux 600w HPS bulbs. Got a hanging panda mom tent in the corner with 12 moms of 4 different strains. I use a 36 site aero-cloner, and take the best 22 every to weeks. I use perlite with mini-rockwool cubes packed at the bottom in my 5.5 inch square pots. After I pot my newly rooted clones, I leave them in the bedroom to make sure they get over the transplant shock and make sure they're standing tall and taking up the nute solution before I put them under the HPS in the flowering room. The problem is that most of them wilt under the HPS for the first few days before they get used to the environment. The HPS is about 2 feet away, but the wilting issue persists. The room temp is between 72 to 78 max (air-conditioned now, it's summer in the States ) and humidity hovers between 45 - 55%. Any advice to help with the wilting? It scares me, and I've lost a less-hearty little girl here and there...


 Wilting immediately after putting the clones in the flowering area may indicate that the roots are not as developed as they could be. You might leave them in the clone box for a couple more days until you see a nice spray of roots (10+ roots out of the cube bottoms)- a single taproot isn't enough for supply the plant's transpiration demands when it's photosynthesising enthusiastically. 600mm clearance is a bit close for a brand new clone, but if there's enough rootmass, they should cope OK & come good after about 48 hrs.



Taurich said:


> Hey Al
> 
> I'm using an adaptation of your SoG method
> I've only got two flower tents (1.25m x 1.25m, 1000w HPS each), a separate box with a 400w MH, and a propagation box (some fluro's)
> ...


 You're shooting yourself in the foot by vegging before flowering. This is the cause of your tall plants. It's also adding time to your harvest interval. Eliminate the veg step. 

CO2 is worth doing but only if done right- and by 'right,' I mean CO2 from tanks and metered with an automated application system which senses ambient air concentration of CO2, controls exhaust fans and doses the room with CO2. Also, the room has to be built to suit CO2 application- cooltubes, sealed room but for ventilation fans, aircon if necessary to control temps without blowing out your expensive CO2. It's very easy to get $2500-3000 (or more) wrapped up in a proper CO2 system. I get by fine without it. 

Clones should be well rooted in 15 days (max). At that time, they are ready to go into the 12/12 flowering room with no further mucking about.

Don't bother with LED lighting of any kind for any purpose. Waste of money. The tall plants are being caused by doing a veg period. Stop doing that & you will get plants about 500-600mm tall at finishing.

I don't know what "PGR" is. 'Liquid Lead' is yet another mysterious 'magic sauce' and can be omitted. 

You MUST maintain separate mother plants under a veg lighting cycle (18-24h on per day). Never take cuttings from a plant which is in flower. Such cuttings will be very slow to root. 

STG cubes are available at most hydro shops. If your local doesn't have it, request that they stock it. I've just gotten a few plants though an 8 week flowering cycle in STG and find that the performance is similar to Fytocell. I did notice that the plants I recently ran in STG did perform better early on, but then some gnats got into the op & mucked things up a bit. STG cubes also have large air gaps between them, which makes it easier for fungus gnats to get into the rootmass. I'm going to get more STG cubes and try again when I have the gnats eliminated before I make any sort of final verdict on the stuff.



reggaerican said:


> so what if I only have hydrogen peroxide 3% should I dump the whole frickn 16oz bottle in my 30 gal rez??
> I will try to go buy the 50% but what if I dont find it..
> I need help and fast. I lost one plant already and I fear the rest are close behind..


 As you might have guessed, this plant is dead, as are any others that look like it. No amount of H2O2 will save a plant with this much root damage. You should have been using H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L of tank volume every 3-4 days, and should have been doing so since day 1. If you can only get 29%, use it at 1.8ml/L every 3-4 days. 

Sorry, but you're going to have to start over. Do a thorough cleaning of your op before trying again. Clean all nutrient contact surfaces with a 10% laundry bleach in water solution with a few drops of liquid dish soap as a wetting agent. Make sure there's no entry points for fungus gnats. If you see a light leak, gnats will see it too. Make sure there's no wooden structural parts that can get wet- bugs just LOVE wet wood. 

3% grade H2O2 should not be used in hydroponics. Low-strength H2O2 must contain stabiliser chemicals to keep the H2O2 from breaking down into H2O & O2 in storage. The stabiliser (usually sodium stannate) is toxic to plants. 

I don't know enough about your op to pin down all the causes of this major root damage- you may have been overwatering, may have fungus gnats, etc.



Shwagbag said:


> Hit up natural food stores for 35%. That sucks dude, I feel for you.


Yep, that's one place to get moderately strong H2O2, but whatever you do, NEVER follow 'natural food stores'' instructions to drink the stuff, no matter what they say. There's a cult of 'body oxygenation' fraudsters out there who think drinking the stuff is a good idea, as though you have lungs in your gut. Never, never, never. 



Southtexasman87 said:


> I left some clones I took this morning out on the patio and the hot late afternoon sun was beating down on them I hope tiger ok to!! And I hopeople the rest of your plants are ok good luck on that!!


Putting plants outdoors that you will flower indoors is an EXCELLENT way to bring spider mites, fungus gnats or other pests into your op. Please don't do this.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 29, 2012)

It took me about 90 minutes to compose that last post. When I tried to post, I got a 'restriction' screen that forced me to enter a Captcha code. In so doing, I LOST MY ENTIRE POST TEXT. If it had not been for a plugin I have installed on my browser ('Lazarus'), I would have had to have re-written the whole thing. 

There's got to be a better way to keep spammers off the board. 

If I ever lose an entire post, I will simply delete my RIU acct and never come back. I don't need the aggravation.


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## reggaerican (Jul 29, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> As you might have guessed, this plant is dead, as are any others that look like it. No amount of H2O2 will save a plant with this much root damage. You should have been using H2O2 50% grade at 1ml/L of tank volume every 3-4 days, and should have been doing so since day 1. If you can only get 29%, use it at 1.8ml/L every 3-4 days.
> 
> Sorry, but you're going to have to start over. Do a thorough cleaning of your op before trying again. Clean all nutrient contact surfaces with a 10% laundry bleach in water solution with a few drops of liquid dish soap as a wetting agent. Make sure there's no entry points for fungus gnats. If you see a light leak, gnats will see it too. Make sure there's no wooden structural parts that can get wet- bugs just LOVE wet wood.
> 
> ...


dammit man and I was hoping to just transplant that sick little girl and bring her back to life... 
so do you really think I will loose the rest of them as well some roots were just as bad as that one and some not so bad...
and oops too late I already dumped that whole 16oz bottle of 3% into my rez cause I panic'd guess im doing a rez change tonight shit!! and I just checked my water temp right as it was going back to my rez and it was 72degrees this might be a bad thing cause the lights have only been on for 2 hrs...


----------



## Southtexasman87 (Jul 29, 2012)

Thanks all I'll keep that in mind, this was more of a first attempt to c if I can do it right and already on a half way bad start hope the will pull thru


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## Gyroscope (Jul 30, 2012)

Hello Al, glad to see you back.
I am glad you had the Lazarus app. We would be losing a valuable resource if you left. The new firewall software is a pain in the ass and you never know when it will hit. It even does it sometimes when you PM somebody. Even with no curse words or spam...


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2012)

reggaerican said:


> dammit man and I was hoping to just transplant that sick little girl and bring her back to life...


Sorry. If they look like that, they're cooked. 



> so do you really think I will loose the rest of them as well some roots were just as bad as that one and some not so bad...


You're on a hiding to nowhere trying to recover a plant that's in that bad of condition. Even if by some miracle you could get that stem to set new roots, you'd have to also cut it back severely, re-veg it under 18-24h light (min 8-10wks), get some new vegetative habit growth on it (4-6wks), then flower it (8-9 wks). Looks like about 20-27wks. Half a fucking year to recover the plant & get it to yield, which it almost certainly won't do very well. Time to bail, clean up & start over, even if you have to start from seeds. 


> and oops too late I already dumped that whole 16oz bottle of 3% into my rez cause I panic'd guess im doing a rez change tonight shit!! and I just checked my water temp right as it was going back to my rez and it was 72degrees this might be a bad thing cause the lights have only been on for 2 hrs...


I don't think it'll matter.



Southtexasman87 said:


> Thanks all I'll keep that in mind, this was more of a first attempt to c if I can do it right and already on a half way bad start hope the will pull thru


Before you bring that plant back indoors, treat it with Confidor insecticide (any hdwe or garden shop has it). If you've already brought it back in, treat all plants with Confidor, get some yellow sticky card fly traps (garden shops) and watch for signs of fungus gnat, whitefly or spider mites. 

Beyond hiding your grow from ppl who should not see it, the biggest advantage to indoor growing is being able to control pests' physical access to your plants. They do not need you to help them get in- you will always have some bug sneak into your op. Don't make it easy for them.



Gyroscope said:


> Hello Al, glad to see you back.


Thanks. Been busy & a bit unwell. I'll live.



> I am glad you had the Lazarus app. We would be losing a valuable resource if you left. The new firewall software is a pain in the ass and you never know when it will hit. It even does it sometimes when you PM somebody. Even with no curse words or spam...


Thanks for the compliment. 

I'm glad I had it, too. Got enough on at the moment, would not have coped well if I'd had to write that twice. In fact, I almost certainly wouldn't have.


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## reggaerican (Jul 30, 2012)

thanks man, and you gotta know I was joking about that one plant right? she has been in the compost pile since befor I posted to ya.... however here is a pic of one of the other plants roots that is on my table... this plant was right next to that one that died and her roots looked just as bad right befor my flush.. im still a rookie but im not so sure they are lost anymore..?
and a pic of the full table and why I dont wanna write them off so easily...


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2012)

reggaerican said:


> thanks man, and you gotta know I was joking about that one plant right? she has been in the compost pile since befor I posted to ya....


No, I didn't know nor think you were joking. Please don't waste my time with stuff like that. I have only a limited amount of time to reply to posts & I don't need to be punked.


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## reggaerican (Jul 30, 2012)

wow really you make a thread to put out info to try and help and then you say shit like that.. whatever im not trying to punk you just looking for advise clearly your not the one to give it..
evjoy your miserable life


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 30, 2012)

Have some respect. He gets so many damn questions this is basically a second job he does for free, and to waist his time like that ( posting a problem for him to answer, then once he does, you say " oh i dont give a shit you spent your time on what i said, i was joking"

Been on RUI over 3 years and your killing plants. Something needs to change.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2012)

reggaerican said:


> wow really you make a thread to put out info to try and help and then you say shit like that.. whatever im not trying to punk you just looking for advise clearly your not the one to give it..
> evjoy your miserable life


You put up a pic of a sick plant & ask for help, I answer in good faith, then you say, 'haha, I was just joking.' 

Again: don't waste my time.


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## mountainboy (Jul 30, 2012)

Wow! that guy said enjoy your miserable life. I'll tell you what. I would take Al's Awesome life over those miserable plants you got any day, I bet he used mole asses on those things...lol. Keep up the great work AL. ,and please dont leave us.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 30, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Wow! that guy said enjoy your miserable life. I'll tell you what. I would take Al's Awesome life over those miserable plants you got any day, I bet he used mole asses on those things...lol. Keep up the great work AL. ,and please dont leave us.


Thanks. 

I really REALLY don't have much time to put into responding to queries on cannabis boards. I used to post on multiple threads on several boards; now I post in one thread on one board- and you're looking at it. I try not to allow more than a week between visits, but sometimes there's simply no way around it. 

I don't think I'll ever entirely stop posting, but if it's not fun & interesting for me and the ppl I'm talking to, believe me, there's other things I can be doing. And as a matter of fact, I think I'll go roll a fatty & watch the sunset.


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 31, 2012)

Hey Al. just wondering, have you ever done any grafting? 
I am pretty anal about sticking to my med laws so i will never go over my 15 plant limit, but that being said i love testing new strains.
Thoughts on grafting?


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2012)

Bigz2277 said:


> Hey Al. just wondering, have you ever done any grafting?
> I am pretty anal about sticking to my med laws so i will never go over my 15 plant limit, but that being said i love testing new strains.
> Thoughts on grafting?


You certainly could graft cannabis, though I've not. I've done hardwood grafting on fruit trees (there's pears growing on my apple tree)- and I can't imagine the process would be much different. Look up grafting on the better gardening websites. 

I could see a single mum plant hosting a number of different strains to keep plant count down. Bit risky tho- root disease in the mum plant & suddenly you lose a lot of work. It'll be fiddly, expert stuff. Congrats if you pull it off & manage to keep it going for a year or so.


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 31, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You certainly could graft cannabis, though I've not. I've done hardwood grafting on fruit trees (there's pears growing on my apple tree)- and I can't imagine the process would be much different. Look up grafting on the better gardening websites.
> 
> I could see a single mum plant hosting a number of different strains to keep plant count down. Bit risky tho- root disease in the mum plant & suddenly you lose a lot of work. It'll be fiddly, expert stuff. Congrats if you pull it off & manage to keep it going for a year or so.


One thing i have been wanting to try is to graft a developing male flower onto a flowering female and see if it will breed.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2012)

Bigz2277 said:


> One thing i have been wanting to try is to graft a developing male flower onto a flowering female and see if it will breed.


You probably won't be successful grafting flowers. Usually only works grafting stems to stems. If you want to crossbreed, wait until the male flowers have some pollen showing & manually pollinate the female flowers with a small artist's paintbrush. Bear in mind that by the time you see pollen on male flowers, they've already pollinated the females in your room... they're sneaky like that.


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## Gyroscope (Jul 31, 2012)

I have heard that you can graft cannabis onto a hops plant. They a very similar.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2012)

Gyroscope said:


> I have heard that you can graft cannabis onto a hops plant. They a very similar.


You can, but there's no point in doing so. There's a myth that hops grafted to cannabis will cause the hop leaves to produce THC. Doesn't work like that.


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 31, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You can, but there's no point in doing so. There's a myth that hops grafted to cannabis will cause the hop leaves to produce THC. Doesn't work like that.


seen it done its possible but from what i learned the fermentation process destroys the THC


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## Gyroscope (Jul 31, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You can, but there's no point in doing so. There's a myth that hops grafted to cannabis will cause the hop leaves to produce THC. Doesn't work like that.


I had never heard that about the leaves. From what I heard the stronger hops root system made the cannabis top grow bigger. Seems like a waste of time unless you just wanted to do it for kicks.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2012)

Bigz2277 said:


> seen it done its possible but from what i learned the fermentation process destroys the THC


No, it's not possible. Sorry, you've been lied to. Grafted plant material will produce precisely what it does with its own root system.



Gyroscope said:


> I had never heard that about the leaves. From what I heard the stronger hops root system made the cannabis top grow bigger. Seems like a waste of time unless you just wanted to do it for kicks.


Yep- you've identified the main result, which is time wasting.


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## Bigz2277 (Jul 31, 2012)

Wasn't with grafting. He might have been blowing smoke when he said it (i would like to know if you have any info that refutes it), but he said he crossbread a Indica dom hybrid with a hops plant to make some beer, but he said he didnt taste much different from the other home brew stuff he had done.


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## Al B. Fuct (Jul 31, 2012)

Bigz2277 said:


> Wasn't with grafting. He might have been blowing smoke when he said it (i would like to know if you have any info that refutes it), but he said he crossbread a Indica dom hybrid with a hops plant to make some beer, but he said he didnt taste much different from the other home brew stuff he had done.


Cannabis & hops will not crossbreed. Too much genetic difference between the plants. It's like saying you could crossbreed basil with tarragon simply because they're both herbaceous- and you can't. 

I'm not going to invest several hours researching & posting a full dissection of the botany involved in this because it's irrelevant to what we are doing on a cannabis growing board, but you can search it up if you like.


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## Bigz2277 (Aug 1, 2012)

Heh, Well its good to know he's full of shit ^_^. Thanks for letting me know.

Btw, i dont know if i asked but what strain do you run on your flood tables? 

Im working out the kinks of my sativa dom colombian gold. 2 foot high after stretch, 12/12 from clone 0 veg. 
Building my flood table now, just not sure what strain is going in first. Prob gonna be 4-6 plants square pots with the STG hail. 

What would you recommend for flood times with the hail? Was thinking twice a day while lights on. 

Thanks for any help Al, just know there are people who appreciate your talent and knowledge... Keep it green.
Bigz


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 1, 2012)

Bigz2277 said:


> Heh, Well its good to know he's full of shit ^_^. Thanks for letting me know.


There's endless multitudes of myths about cannabis & growing the stuff. The hops thing is one of the oldest- and silliest. 

I get annoyed with those who thoughtlessly regurgitate unsubstantiable myths because somewhere down the line, it's going to cause problems for earnest growers. 



> Btw, i dont know if i asked but what strain do you run on your flood tables?


Sweet Tooth no. 4 from Spice of Life Seeds. No longer available from the breeder to the best of my knowledge. I cracked these beans in 2002 & have been propagating via cuttings ever since. 



> Im working out the kinks of my sativa dom colombian gold. 2 foot high after stretch, 12/12 from clone 0 veg.


Sounds about right. Sativas tend to get a bit taller than indicas and don't grow as thickly. You can risk somewhat higher plants/sq ft density with an entire tray of sativa dominant hybrids. I'd hold it to 4/sq ft max, though. 

Sweet Tooth no. 4 is a strongly indica dominant hybrid & grows very lushly; I hold it to 24 in a 900mm x 900mm table, which is about 2.75 plants/sq ft



> What would you recommend for flood times with the hail? Was thinking twice a day while lights on.


Sounds OK. 



> Thanks for any help Al, just know there are people who appreciate your talent and knowledge... Keep it green.


Thanks for that.


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## Shwagbag (Aug 2, 2012)

Still rockin' sweet tooth! I quit smoking pot for a lot of years due to the fact that I simply couldn't get good pot where I lived. A friend of mine showed me some sweet tooth, got me a hookup, scored me a zip and 3 months later I was growing my own legally lol. That changed rather quickly. I really liked the sweet tooth. That's a long time to be smoking the same pot though, hope you have some friends with top shelf dank you can trade with


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 2, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Still rockin' sweet tooth! I quit smoking pot for a lot of years due to the fact that I simply couldn't get good pot where I lived. A friend of mine showed me some sweet tooth, got me a hookup, scored me a zip and 3 months later I was growing my own legally lol. That changed rather quickly. I really liked the sweet tooth.


GYO is the way to go. 



> That's a long time to be smoking the same pot though, hope you have some friends with top shelf dank you can trade with


At the end of the day, no matter what the strain, delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol is delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol. What _does_ vary between strains is the ratios of delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol to the non- or less psychoactive cannabidiol & cannabidinol. 

Indicas tend to have higher levels of cannabidiol:delta-9 tetrahydrocannabinol, which may account for a sleepier or 'body' high, compared to sativas, which have relatively low levels of cannabidiol, which is tends to give a less sleepy high but doesn't last as long. 

Even after smoking the same buds for 10 years, I still find the buzz from ST4 more than adequate and still love the spicy, perfumey flavour. No complaints from the other folks who smoke my buds, either!


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## Shwagbag (Aug 2, 2012)

Oh I'm certain there's no complaints, I've seen them! Well not really, but I've seen pictures lol. I'm a big fan of variety, a connoisseur of sorts I guess. I get excitement from starting new strains and it seems to keep me interested and curious. I do love plants and growing cannabis but I get so damn busy that its difficult to enjoy staying on top of them when all one has time for is work, chores and gardening. It seems you know what this is like. Do you think you'll ever switch strains? If so what would you like to try in your system?


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## Swiezy (Aug 4, 2012)

Al, Thanks for all of the answers. Can you tell me something more about compisting. Could you describe technique that u r using? I know that u use shreader.Do u use worms?/ how big the composter should be for op like yours? Do you mix greens with browns in special ratio? Or just put in what you have from trimmed and discarded plants? Does it smell weed?How long it takes to transform it to unrecognizable mass?


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## budman111 (Aug 4, 2012)

reggaerican said:


> wow really you make a thread to put out info to try and help and then you say shit like that.. whatever im not trying to punk you just looking for advise clearly your not the one to give it.. evjoy your miserable life


 He's here to give advice and you treat him like this? And people actually pressed the like button? WTF?


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## mountainboy (Aug 5, 2012)

Hi Al,and everyone else. I have a question of course.... I am growing in E&F table 3x3 25 plants,1000hps. I started with small clones 4-5 inches and well rooted. I put them str8 to 12/12. Its been 15 days and they look healthy and happy room is perfect conditions. The clones only have grown to 7-8 inches and have started flowering already. So if they are flowering is the stretch done.Will they continue to grow and flower. I wanted short plants due to my height restrictions but not this short..lol I thought I might end up with 16-18 inch plants when finished. Should I scrape this grow and try a lil more veg next time? I am afraid to put pics up ,but if you need to see pics I'll put them up,so you can get a better idea. Not sure if it makes a difference or not but this is the duckfoot strain(3 fingered webbed leaves). Thanks for any advice you can give me.


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## Moebius (Aug 5, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Hi Al,and everyone else. I have a question of course.... I am growing in E&F table 3x3 25 plants,1000hps. I started with small clones 4-5 inches and well rooted. I put them str8 to 12/12. Its been 15 days and they look healthy and happy room is perfect conditions. The clones only have grown to 7-8 inches and have started flowering already. So if they are flowering is the stretch done.Will they continue to grow and flower. I wanted short plants due to my height restrictions but not this short..lol I thought I might end up with 16-18 inch plants when finished. Should I scrape this grow and try a lil more veg next time? I am afraid to put pics up ,but if you need to see pics I'll put them up,so you can get a better idea. Not sure if it makes a difference or not but this is the duckfoot strain(3 fingered webbed leaves). Thanks for any advice you can give me.


Lets see some pics dude. ... On the face of it I wouldn't say scrap them.

On a side note, really nice hash can be made with substandard or early flowering plants. Ive done it recently with a mini-washer, bubblebags and lots of ice.


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## tommygun666 (Aug 5, 2012)

Hey Al
I have read through both your threads a few times and there is a bunch of great info for my first grow.
But I have a couple questions I haven't seen the answers to.

1. After you mix your nutes in your reservoir, do you go back every couple days and use a stick or something to mix the stuff up again so the nutes dont start to settle at the bottom? Or is it after you mix them up the first time, they are pretty much permanently diffused throughout the water?

2. How do you empty your reservoirs? They seem like they would be pretty heavy so do you just pump the water out to a sink or something? I wouldn't want to pump them outside cause all that water would just flood my whole backyard.

3. Lastly, if I use perlite, is it the same watering schedule as using fytocell? 1x a day?

Thanks so much Al!


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## Moebius (Aug 5, 2012)

tommygun666 said:


> Hey Al
> 
> 1. After you mix your nutes in your reservoir, do you go back every couple days and use a stick or something to mix the stuff up again so the nutes dont start to settle at the bottom? Or is it after you mix them up the first time, they are pretty much permanently diffused throughout the water?









*Newave - Circulation Pump* 

 Why didnt they make these earlier??

 Circulates your nutrient solution at very high volumes

 No more sediment left floating on top of solution 

 No more sediment rings left around the tank

 _*&#8203;Available in 3 sizes:*_ 

 Adjustable 800-1600L/hr 

 2700L/hr

 3900L/hr


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## mountainboy (Aug 5, 2012)

Moebius said:


> Lets see some pics dude. ... On the face of it I wouldn't say scrap them.
> 
> On a side note, really nice hash can be made with substandard or early flowering plants. Ive done it recently with a mini-washer, bubblebags and lots of ice.


Thank you for responding, I will put up the pics tonight ,lights dont come on till 10pm east coast time. This is my first time going 12/12 from clone so I'm unsure what to expect. I did alot of research and it seemed everyone was doing this even AL. all be it Als clones are much bigger and beefier then mine,most of the stuff I saw and read about used small clones like mine with no veg at all ,and most ended up at least 2ft,even guys who go 12/12 from seed. Al says his are 9-10 inches if I read right and end up 2.5-3 ft when finished. Well anyway I will post pics 2nite,I hope for the best but I will plan for the worst as that is usually my luck..lol.


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## Moebius (Aug 5, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Thank you for responding, I will put up the pics tonight ,lights dont come on till 10pm east coast time. This is my first time going 12/12 from clone so I'm unsure what to expect. I did alot of research and it seemed everyone was doing this even AL. all be it Als clones are much bigger and beefier then mine,most of the stuff I saw and read about used small clones like mine with no veg at all ,and most ended up at least 2ft,even guys who go 12/12 from seed. Al says his are 9-10 inches if I read right and end up 2.5-3 ft when finished. Well anyway I will post pics 2nite,I hope for the best but I will plan for the worst as that is usually my luck..lol.


One thing to remember when taking clones and going to 12/12 is the strain. .... I have a G13 that remains in a veg state for two/three weeks in 12/12 and grows lots while the violator kush doesnt stretch so much and shows flowers real quick. ... 

and as you say, the initial size of the clone is an important factor. whether you want large or small clones will depend on how tall you want the finished plant and of course the size of your moms...... One thing I don't do, is trim the top leaves. Since they go straight to flower, I need as many leaves in place as poss.


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## mountainboy (Aug 6, 2012)

Moebius said:


> One thing to remember when taking clones and going to 12/12 is the strain. .... I have a G13 that remains in a veg state for two/three weeks in 12/12 and grows lots while the violator kush doesnt stretch so much and shows flowers real quick. ...
> 
> and as you say, the initial size of the clone is an important factor. whether you want large or small clones will depend on how tall you want the finished plant and of course the size of your moms...... One thing I don't do, is trim the top leaves. Since they go straight to flower, I need as many leaves in place as poss.


Moe thank you for your help, here are some pics, I used my trunchon for scale,and tried to get good pics of bud formation thus far day 16. Please dont laugh.


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## Moebius (Aug 6, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Please dont laugh.


Dude i'm not laughing, they look good to me. ... I find that I can keep my lights quite close at this stage (air-cooled). Obviously the lower the lights the smaller the footprint but they do love the light. As the flowers grow Its best to move them up, I find the bud is more delicate than the leaves, at any rate they're more precious and not worth stressing them.

Anyways ... all good for you so far. Defo don't throw them or next time you won't do any better. I think you'll get some good smoke so keep improving the setup and dial it all in.

peace.


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## mountainboy (Aug 6, 2012)

Thank you again, I know its impossible to know how tall these will finish at as neither of us knows the strain that well, but do you think they will continue to grow through out the flowering process, I am aiming for 1oz per plant, I just cant visualize these things getting big enough. I did move the light up just for the pics, they are normally 18" from the tops, I was going to set it higher just to get some stretch going..lol, The room stays at a steady 75 degrees day/night. I put most of my work and money into environmental control. So I just have to figure this strain out. 
O.K so just to make my worries subside ,would you say this grow is on track for a sog grow, at 16 days into 12/12, or are most taller then this at the onset of flowering. I know I'm a pain in the ass, but first time clones str8 to 12/12 for me. If you had to just take a guess what would you think might be a finished height for these girls. 
Thanks again, I will try to be more optimistic.


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## Moebius (Aug 6, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Thank you again, I know its impossible to know how tall these will finish at as neither of us knows the strain that well, but do you think they will continue to grow through out the flowering process, I am aiming for 1oz per plant, I just cant visualize these things getting big enough. I did move the light up just for the pics, they are normally 18" from the tops, I was going to set it higher just to get some stretch going..lol, The room stays at a steady 75 degrees day/night. I put most of my work and money into environmental control. So I just have to figure this strain out.
> O.K so just to make my worries subside ,would you say this grow is on track for a sog grow, at 16 days into 12/12, or are most taller then this at the onset of flowering. I know I'm a pain in the ass, but first time clones str8 to 12/12 for me. If you had to just take a guess what would you think might be a finished height for these girls.
> Thanks again, I will try to be more optimistic.


It might not end up a SOG (Sea of Green) but a LOG (Lake of Green). .... sorry poor joke. but seriously we can't tell how thick a canopy you'll get just yet. You're placing your plants quite closely so your canopy should get quite thick.

Personally I don't worry about the name of it, I, like you are attempting to squeeze as many plants into a relatively small area and flower them early.... Obviously a true SOG would be easier to achieve with some veg time. ... As I'm sure you're becoming aware its a bit of a balancing act between the strain, density of plants, veg time etc etc.

One thing I have been surprised to find is just how important good ventilation and fresh air is to indoor Cannabis. I always knew it was very important but after just opening a garden door and allowing fresh air to enter my grow room I have found the quality and size of buds increase. ... I shouldn't have been so suprised because when thought about, the majority of a plants bio-mass is CO2 absorbed from the air.... Forget boosters etc etc. Air is the key.

edit: re guessing a finishing height. errmmm I can't man, Ive experienced so much variation that i would defo just get it wrong. errmmm maybe 12"-18" max.


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## mountainboy (Aug 6, 2012)

Yes I do know what you mean, It is a balancing act, In my head I already have started my next grow,with some veg time..lol, It sucks when I have never grown this strain b4, but like you say once this test run is over, I will know its behavior better and can adjust accordingly. I think I read somewhere it is an early finisher (late 40-50) days,but again just hear say. It does love the nutes and roots easy I know that much...lol. I have to feed the mums a min of 2.0 EC or the bottom leaves yellow real bad,and I have seen no tip burn even when I was giving them some real hot doses just to see how much they could take.
I would go more into detail about the room,but I'll save that for my journal. I will say one thing that helps is I insulated every wall and ceiling and floor with 8" rigid insulation,and one of my room exhaust fans is a fan used to blow up one of those kids bounce houses(yard sale find) its 400watts and I thing the motor is a few hp, my room is 6x9 and it can change the air mass in about 2seconds..lmao
As usual thank you for your time and patience,and I will check in again after a week or so and let you know whats up.


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## Petch (Aug 7, 2012)

Hi Al,

Just a quick message to say thanks for the info you've provided over the years. your information has been the most helpful for me and my learning of correct grow procedure. I have scoured a lot of cannabis boards, but your threads on here presented me with a wealth of information.....took a while to wade through it all like, but worth it.

You also influenced me to adapt a SOG F+D method of growing, before that it was coco and also a failed DWC experiment, which would have worked had i knew about H202!

I have a scaled down version of your grow, but had to start from scartch so don't have a mother plant yet, and had to start from seed....24 plants, two trays of 12, almost 4 weeks in.

Questions:

Can you not use the cuttings from the pruning to use as clones, cutting out the need for a mother plant?

Here in England I can only get growth technology 'liquid oxygen' at 17.5% hydrogen peroxide, is this a problem for me? I have been using 250ml a week in my 100 litre res and it has been doing a good job, I really don't see how people can grow weed in hydro without it.

Maximum props to you Al B Fuct, great to see that you are still around.


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## reggaerican (Aug 8, 2012)

hey so al I just wanted to apoligize for that one comment I made to you a week or so ago.. I was just freekin out over my rot problem and the stress got the better of me.
been bothering me since so I just wanted to get it off my chest...
cheers hope all is well...


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## Bigz2277 (Aug 9, 2012)

reggaerican said:


> hey so al I just wanted to apoligize for that one comment I made to you a week or so ago.. I was just freekin out over my rot problem and the stress got the better of me.
> been bothering me since so I just wanted to get it off my chest...
> cheers hope all is well...


Takes a strong man to admit hes wrong. Ill give you that.


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## Swiezy (Aug 10, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> Al, Thanks for all of the answers. Can you tell me something more about compisting. Could you describe technique that u r using? I know that u use shreader.Do u use worms?/ how big the composter should be for op like yours? Do you mix greens with browns in special ratio? Or just put in what you have from trimmed and discarded plants? Does it smell weed?How long it takes to transform it to unrecognizable mass?


Hey Al, I forgot to ask you two more qustion. How are stg cubes doing? and how the yield improved when using PK?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 10, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Oh I'm certain there's no complaints, I've seen them! Well not really, but I've seen pictures lol. I'm a big fan of variety, a connoisseur of sorts I guess. I get excitement from starting new strains and it seems to keep me interested and curious. I do love plants and growing cannabis but I get so damn busy that its difficult to enjoy staying on top of them when all one has time for is work, chores and gardening. It seems you know what this is like. Do you think you'll ever switch strains? If so what would you like to try in your system?


 There's a few strains I'd like to try (Blockhead looks fun), but it's a bit immaterial as it's a lot harder to get beans through the post than it once was. I'm extremely conservative as regards security. I've been growing dope for more than 25 years without any legal problems whatsoever and I want to keep it that way. Organising a maildrop is certainly doable but I'm unmotivated to do so as ST4 is still doing wonderfully for me.



Swiezy said:


> Al, Thanks for all of the answers. Can you tell me something more about composting. Could you describe technique that u r using? I know that u use a shredder. Do u use worms?/ how big the composter should be for op like yours? Do you mix greens with browns in special ratio? Or just put in what you have from trimmed and discarded plants? Does it smell weed?How long it takes to transform it to unrecognizable mass?


 There's all manner of guides on gardening websites for running a healthy compost bin. *This one* is excellent and contains all the details you'll need. 

The general rule is about 25-30 parts brown to 1 part green. 

My compost bins are not used solely for disposal of grow-op waste. Lawn clippings, kitchen veg peelings (eggshells are OK) along with shredded newspaper & cardboard all go in my two bins, which are about 200L/each. I use 2 bins so one can have no new matter put into it for about 6 months to allow the matter to be fully broken down & digested by worms, while the other bin is getting new material added every week or so. 

A healthy compost heap will make cannabis waste disappear entirely in about 2 weeks, somewhat faster in warm weather, slower in cooler weather. 

Avoid onion cuttings & citrus peels unless in very small amounts. Never put animal fats or pet poo in your compost. You CAN put human urine in your compost- it's loaded with nitrogen & phosphorus. Wet your compost with about 10L of water per week, less if it has been raining a lot recently, more if it has been hot & dry. 

Cannabis waste is really a small proportion of what goes in my bins. The more stuff you put in your compost, the better. Bury the fresh cannabis waste under older compost & you will never smell anything cannabis-y. 

A 200L bin will hold enough material to allow microbial action in the middle of the pile to reach temperatures of 60-70C, which will sterilise the compost & kill weed seeds. Once the bacteria & fungi have done their job of breaking down the fresh material over the first 2 weeks or so, earthworms will take over and eat the remaining material. The result is worm-casting-rich compost that can be used directly in garden beds or to make a powerful 'casting tea' fertiliser. 

If your compost bin is placed on bare earth, local earthworms will find it and populate the compost matter very quickly. You probably won't have to buy any worms. Once there's a good population of worms, you can take out the well-digested compost and put it in your gardens, while leaving a bit with some worms in it in the bottom of the bin to repopulate the new material you put in. Worms reproduce quickly, so don't worry about taking out quite a few of them with the compost you put in your gardens. 

Not a single bit of waste paper or cardboard packaging goes into the recycling- it all goes through my paper shredder & into the compost. Toilet paper & paper towel roll cores, egg cartons, food package boxes, newspaper, etc are all excellent compost material once shredded. I covet dry tree leaves and pick them up with a leaf blower/vacuum that chops them up finely. 

I also have a branch chipper/chopper in the grow-op work area which has high-speed rotating blades that I use to mince up all cannabis waste before putting it in the compost. It's largely unrecognisable as cannabis trimmings even before it goes in my bins. Running cannabis waste through the chipper makes it break down much faster, as well.

A healthy compost bin has no odor at all. The way you achieve that is by getting oxygen into the decomposing mass by turning the compost at least weekly. A _*compost corkscrew*_ is a fantastic tool for mixing & aerating compost. A stinky compost bin is caused by anaerobic bacteria taking over. Aerate often and the compost is inhospitable to anaerobic bacteria. Frequent aeration makes for a hotter compost pile and faster breakdown of cannabis cutting wastes. 

It's harder to maintain a compost bin outdoors if you live in a freezing climate. Consult your local gardening centre for pointers on how to deal with compost in winter.



mountainboy said:


> Hi Al,and everyone else. I have a question of course.... I am growing in E&F table 3x3 25 plants,1000hps.


 Your 1000 could cover twice that area. 


> I started with small clones 4-5 inches and well rooted. I put them str8 to 12/12. Its been 15 days and they look healthy and happy room is perfect conditions. The clones only have grown to 7-8 inches and have started flowering already.


 That's about right. 



> So if they are flowering is the stretch done.


 No. They'll continue to gain height for the next 2 weeks. 



> Will they continue to grow and flower.


 Yep. As long as there's no root problems, they'll continue on to about 20-24" and then go into full flowering habit. 



> I wanted short plants due to my height restrictions but not this short..lol I thought I might end up with 16-18 inch plants when finished.


 Ought to get a bit taller than 18" if all is well. 



> Should I scrap this grow and try a lil more veg next time?


 Be patient. If there's no root problems, they'll get a bit taller. 



> I am afraid to put pics up


 Um, why?



> but if you need to see pics I'll put them up,so you can get a better idea.


 Please do. 



> Not sure if it makes a difference or not but this is the duckfoot strain(3 fingered webbed leaves). Thanks for any advice you can give me.


 Oh. Not one of my favourites. Not sure how that will perform for you. Would prefer you use a more typical indica dominant hybrid. I've yet to see a decent yield from duckfoot. 



tommygun666 said:


> Hey Al
> I have read through both your threads a few times and there is a bunch of great info for my first grow.


 Good, thanks. 



> 1. After you mix your nutes in your reservoir, do you go back every couple days and use a stick or something to mix the stuff up again so the nutes dont start to settle at the bottom? Or is it after you mix them up the first time, they are pretty much permanently diffused throughout the water?


 The action of filling & draining the flood tray as well as the action of air bubbles from your bubble curtain or airstone will be sufficient for stirring your tanks. 



> 2. How do you empty your reservoirs? They seem like they would be pretty heavy so do you just pump the water out to a sink or something? I wouldn't want to pump them outside cause all that water would just flood my whole backyard.


 A pair of lawn irrigation valves and a tee fitting make draining reservoir tanks easy. 

View attachment 2289901

For normal operation, close valve #2, open valve #1.

To drain tank, close valve #1, open valve #2 and turn on pump. 
Be sure to return the valves to the operating position unless you want your new tank of sauce to go down the drain!


Your tanks can't possibly be large enough to flood your yard, unless you have a yard the size of a bathtub! The waste nute sauce will be absorbed into the ground quickly and your lawn will love it!



> 3. Lastly, if I use perlite, is it the same watering schedule as using fytocell? 1x a day?


 Should be fine 1x/day.



Moebius said:


> *Newave - Circulation Pump*
> 
> Why didnt they make these earlier??
> 
> ...


 Cute, but I don't think it's necessary. The water motion from flooding the trays should be sufficient for tank mixing. If your nutes leave any sort of sediment, use different nutes. A good inorganic nutrient like Canna doesn't have anything in it that can fall out of solution.



Moebius said:


> One thing to remember when taking clones and going to 12/12 is the strain. .... I have a G13 that remains in a veg state for two/three weeks in 12/12 and grows lots while the violator kush doesnt stretch so much and shows flowers real quick. ...
> 
> and as you say, the initial size of the clone is an important factor. whether you want large or small clones will depend on how tall you want the finished plant and of course the size of your moms...... One thing I don't do, is trim the top leaves. Since they go straight to flower, I need as many leaves in place as poss.


 In SoG, you don't ever top the plants. Top pruning causes plants to be bushy and wide- the opposite of what we're trying to do in SoG. Also, there's no veg time given to plants in a SoG system. This will induce tall plants, something else we're trying to avoid in SoG. 



mountainboy said:


> Moe thank you for your help, here are some pics, I used my trunchon for scale,and tried to get good pics of bud formation thus far day 16. Please dont laugh.View attachment 2284194View attachment 2284195View attachment 2284199View attachment 2284200View attachment 2284204


 Looks OK for 2 weeks into flowering. Your clones are a bit thin stemmed, though. Let your mother plants develop a bit more before taking cuttings so you get thicker stemmed cuttings to work with. 




Petch said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> Just a quick message to say thanks for the info you've provided over the years. your information has been the most helpful for me and my learning of correct grow procedure. I have scoured a lot of cannabis boards, but your threads on here presented me with a wealth of information.....took a while to wade through it all like, but worth it.


 Thanks  



> You also influenced me to adapt a SOG F+D method of growing, before that it was coco and also a failed DWC experiment, which would have worked had i knew about H202!
> 
> I have a scaled down version of your grow, but had to start from scartch so don't have a mother plant yet, and had to start from seed....24 plants, two trays of 12, almost 4 weeks in.


 Cool. 



> Can you not use the cuttings from the pruning to use as clones, cutting out the need for a mother plant?


 Cuttings from branch pruning are very thin stemmed and don't quickly become vigorous plants. Thick stemmed cuttings taken from terminal growths on mother plants perform far better in a SoG grow. My cuttings all have stems which are 8-10mm dia. If you want to run a successful & productive SoG op, you need to maintain mums under separate veg cycle (18-24h) lighting. 



> Here in England I can only get growth technology 'liquid oxygen' at 17.5% hydrogen peroxide, is this a problem for me? I have been using 250ml a week in my 100 litre res and it has been doing a good job, I really don't see how people can grow weed in hydro without it.


 17.5% is really fairly low concentration for our purposes in hydroponics. As long as it does not contain any stannate stabilisers, it should be OK, though. I understand in that there'd be restrictions on H2O2 in the UK since it is a constituent chemical in the home-made explosive TATP which was used in the 7/7 London bombings, but have a sniff around foodservice supply companies- you might find 30 or 35%, which is used for sterilising food prep area surfaces and slicing equipment. Some alleged 'health food' shops sell 29-30% H2O2. Whatever you do, don't follow 'body oxygenation' cultists' instructions to drink the stuff!



> Maximum props to you Al B Fuct, great to see that you are still around.


 Thanks for that. 


reggaerican said:


> hey so al I just wanted to apoligize for that one comment I made to you a week or so ago.. I was just freekin out over my rot problem and the stress got the better of me.
> been bothering me since so I just wanted to get it off my chest...
> cheers hope all is well...


OK, thanks.


Bigz2277 said:


> Takes a strong man to admit hes wrong. Ill give you that.


Yep.



Swiezy said:


> Hey Al, I forgot to ask you two more qustion. How are stg cubes doing? and how the yield improved when using PK?


Plants in STG cubes did much better than plants in Fytocell for the 1st 3 wks or so, then things evened up between them. However, there was a confounding factor- some fungus gnats sneaked into my op and damaged the root systems of some of the plants in the batches with STG cubes, so it's hard for me to give a straight-up comparative estimation of the performance advantage of the STG cubes. The large gaps between the STG cubes, however, may have made it easier for gnats to get deeper into the rootzones. As soon as I get the gnats eradicated, I'm going to have another go with STG cubes to see how they go. I do like them, though. Much neater to handle (no crumbs of the stuff all over the place as with Fytocell), easier to dispose of used STG media as it dries out quickly and is much lighter than used Fytocell. 

PK really helps with bud density. Presently using it at 1.5ml/L in tank 3 for weeks 5 & 6 along with Canna Flores at 3ml/L. Would be safe to say that PK is good for 20% uptick in yield weight.


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## mountainboy (Aug 11, 2012)

Al thank you so much for answering my questions, I will take thicker stemmed cuttings for the next run. I was sad to hear about the small yielding potential of Duckfoot. It was my only option, I am looking to a friend to order me Pure power plant seeds,but it will be a long while b4 it becomes a mother and cloned and then into the sog, so for now I'm stuck with it, I will let you know how it turns out for me.
I was pleased however to hear that my plants will probably continue to grow,they are still healthy and happy,and as you said they continue to grow taller,slowly but they are growing..lol,only I would bitch about short plants in a sog grow,but I was looking for at least 2ft plant, I dont think I'll get my Oz per plant this run,I'll have to really baby them to get 1/2 that.
But again thank you Al for your answers and encouraging words.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 11, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Al thank you so much for answering my questions, I will take thicker stemmed cuttings for the next run. I was sad to hear about the small yielding potential of Duckfoot. It was my only option, I am looking to a friend to order me Pure power plant seeds,but it will be a long while b4 it becomes a mother and cloned and then into the sog, so for now I'm stuck with it, I will let you know how it turns out for me.
> I was pleased however to hear that my plants will probably continue to grow,they are still healthy and happy,and as you said they continue to grow taller,slowly but they are growing..lol,only I would bitch about short plants in a sog grow,but I was looking for at least 2ft plant, I dont think I'll get my Oz per plant this run,I'll have to really baby them to get 1/2 that.
> But again thank you Al for your answers and encouraging words.


Good luck. I do like PPP. Grew it some years back- it can be a very heavy yielder.


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## Gyroscope (Aug 14, 2012)

PPP is my favorite at the moment. It is easy to grow. I like the Lemon Skunk too, but the PPP is a faster finisher. Cheers.


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Aug 14, 2012)

Hey, Al! I just wanted to say thanks for all of the information you have given the grow community all of these years. You&#8217;re one of the only gurus that tell it like it is, without all the myths and bullshit. I started off growing DWC with great success, but just couldn&#8217;t get the yield I was looking for in my small space. I wanted to be able to grow enough to support myself when my unemployment ran out, plus have all I and my friends could smoke. I read for about two years before I finally got the balls to start, and apart from you guys in the growing forums, I&#8217;ve never told anyone what I&#8217;m up to (not easy, esp. when people state that I have the best weed they&#8217;ve ever had!) It was between aeroponics (mostly from Stinkbud&#8217;s thread) and F&D a la Mr. Fuct. I went with your method for several reasons, not the least of which is I am also a lazy stoner  Also, sog is the highest yielding method per square foot. My room is about 6wx8lx8h, and I&#8217;m growing with two 600w digilux hps in Sun Systems&#8217; Magnum XXXLs. I have 4 3x2 trays with a 2.5 square hanging panda tent with a 250w hps (what a genius idea, man!) in which I keep 11 moms of 5 different strains: White Widow, NY-47, Trainwreck (my favorite) OG Kush and NLxBB. I&#8217;ve got 22 plants in each tray and a 36 site aerocloner running most of the time (couldn&#8217;t do your rockwool cloning, too much work for me ). The mom&#8217;s do make way more clones than I need, and it&#8217;s nice to choose the best to flower. You were right, I cut the shit out of them with every batch of clones, and two weeks later they&#8217;re back where they were each time. My 5.5 inch pots (I grow 4 per sf) have a layer of rockwool mini cubes at the bottom and they&#8217;re filled with perlite. I can only water once every 2 or 3 days, and I&#8217;m looking to maybe switch mediums so I can flood more often, no hydroton please. I&#8217;m pulling a little over 10 ounces each tray every two weeks, not bad for 600s but I know I can get that up to a pound per tray. I&#8217;m still a newbie. I grow in my apartment, I converted my small office into the grow room with a deadbolt. Luckily, the room has two windows; one for intake in the cooler months and a 10,000 btu a/c in the other window. I took out the a/c side panels and replaced them with two vent boots on either side of the unit. I painted the inside of the boots white and put screen over them, looks totally natural from the outside. I run the ducting into the lights from one side of the a/c, then I have to have the ducting do a 180 sharp turn back over the lights and out the other boot register on the other side of the window. I have a 8 inch vortex fan so it easily compensates for the high static pressure of my ducting bends. I have 2 six inch vortex fans with carbon filters: one just cleans the room&#8217;s air and the other is used for room exhaust in the cooler months. You can&#8217;t smell or hear a damn thing from that room. 

I&#8217;ve wanted to say thanks for a long time to my mentor, so thank you Al. Here&#8217;s some pics, wish I could upload video&#8230;


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## mujujuju (Aug 15, 2012)

Hi Al,

First time poster; although i've been lurking your threads for a couple of weeks and am just blown away with how knowledgeable and objective you are. Fantastic contribution to the community that you have done here, Thank you!. 

I'm starting my first grow in a high rise building. I'm actually buying the place for this purpose but i will live there with my girlfriend (who owns a small business). My plan is to make one of the bedrooms into a stealth grow room. Being a high rise my main concerns are odour and noise. If i can find a way to vent into the central ducting without being too visible that will be my plan. Otherwise i will have to vent to a window (and i guess vent into my bathroom when the window washers come) I may need to muffle the exhaust though in either case.

Could you look at my diagram and tell me if it looks ok? I'm basically going to try and copy your design as it looks fantastic and i like the steady flow of ganj.

notes: 
-ill be using STG filler and STG starter cubes in regular pots.
-mothers may be in soil i haven't decided yet
-mylar grow tents will be sealed at all times except for venting 





My main questions are

1. Do you think ill be OK with just 2 600w HPS for flower room to start? Ill add a 3rd 600w if needed.
2. Do i need to areate the reservoir only while flooding or should i just let it run 24/7 so that the water is nice and oxygeny by the start of flood cycle
3. When i get a dehumidifier, what would be the best placement (that flower tent is pretty much maxed out space wise)
4. Do you think this will be too loud/smelly for a concrete high rise?
5. Is it OK that the 8 inch vortex will only be on with lights? should i consider running it 24/7?

Thanks so much for your input in advance!


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## matatan (Aug 16, 2012)

hey Al quick question for ya, i believe you answered this before but i couldnt find it, didnt know if it was this thread or your harvest every week thread.

what is the fastest way to establish mother(s) from seed? 
they are at day 22 in this pic.

i plan on harvesting every month, 2 600whps, 2 3x3 ftables

what i plan on doing is to let them keep growing till about day 40(about 10 inches tall) and top. use top as clone to determine sex while the topped plants begin to bush and form multiple tops. 2weeks later sex is determined and ill have several(hopefully) female 'moms'. get as many quality cuttings off of the remaining females to run in the first 3x3 table. by the time its time to get more cuttings for table #2, i will get rid of any moms that i dont like(i will still take a cutting and keep it just in case the smoke is amazing, then after taste/smoke test i will completely discard). 

what do u think?

i was told to throw these into flower NOW and when they stretch take a cutting of each then ill know which are female. but my point is that then ill have to wait another month or more to be able to take good quality cuttings... or no? is this the way to go about it?


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## Swiezy (Aug 18, 2012)

Thanks for answers Al. U r using Canna Substra wich is run-to-waste nutrient. Isn't it better to use nutes for recirculatin systems? Like Canna Aqua?



> Canna Aqua
> 
> Formulated to provide a stable pH, Canna Aqua is specifically designed to work in re-circulating hydroponic systems such as NFT tanks and flood and drain set-ups.
> 
> ...


Also room is 520ft3
What do you think about 36 lollioped plants (Dinafem Critical+) in 1m^2 (3,3^2ft) tray? A 1000w HPS over two of them. All together 4 trays. I also plan to use 14l dehumidifier and exchange air once per minute. Can I still expect 0.75oz per plant when plants are so crowded? Is the airflow, light enough?

Best Regards


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## *BUDS (Aug 18, 2012)

doo de doo de doo


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Aug 18, 2012)

menominah

de de de de de

menominah

de de de de


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## lokie (Aug 18, 2012)

Everything's better with bacon


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Aug 18, 2012)

baaaaaaaaaaaaaacon


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## tenthirty (Aug 19, 2012)

did somebody say BACON?


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## Shwagbag (Aug 20, 2012)

Perhaps that discussion is better suited for another part of the forum. Maybe Al would appreciate it if we changed the direction of the thread, back towards making dank. I think that would be a kind gesture.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2012)

Raphael Mechoulam said:


> Hey, Al! I just wanted to say thanks for all of the information you have given the grow community all of these years. You&#8217;re one of the only gurus that tell it like it is, without all the myths and bullshit. I started off growing DWC with great success, but just couldn&#8217;t get the yield I was looking for in my small space. I wanted to be able to grow enough to support myself when my unemployment ran out, plus have all I and my friends could smoke. I read for about two years before I finally got the balls to start, and apart from you guys in the growing forums, I&#8217;ve never told anyone what I&#8217;m up to (not easy, esp. when people state that I have the best weed they&#8217;ve ever had!) It was between aeroponics (mostly from Stinkbud&#8217;s thread) and F&D a la Mr. Fuct. I went with your method for several reasons, not the least of which is I am also a lazy stoner  Also, sog is the highest yielding method per square foot. My room is about 6wx8lx8h, and I&#8217;m growing with two 600w digilux hps in Sun Systems&#8217; Magnum XXXLs. I have 4 3x2 trays with a 2.5 square hanging panda tent with a 250w hps (what a genius idea, man!) in which I keep 11 moms of 5 different strains: White Widow, NY-47, Trainwreck (my favorite) OG Kush and NLxBB. I&#8217;ve got 22 plants in each tray and a 36 site aerocloner running most of the time (couldn&#8217;t do your rockwool cloning, too much work for me ). The mom&#8217;s do make way more clones than I need, and it&#8217;s nice to choose the best to flower. You were right, I cut the shit out of them with every batch of clones, and two weeks later they&#8217;re back where they were each time. My 5.5 inch pots (I grow 4 per sf) have a layer of rockwool mini cubes at the bottom and they&#8217;re filled with perlite. I can only water once every 2 or 3 days, and I&#8217;m looking to maybe switch mediums so I can flood more often, no hydroton please. I&#8217;m pulling a little over 10 ounces each tray every two weeks, not bad for 600s but I know I can get that up to a pound per tray. I&#8217;m still a newbie. I grow in my apartment, I converted my small office into the grow room with a deadbolt. Luckily, the room has two windows; one for intake in the cooler months and a 10,000 btu a/c in the other window. I took out the a/c side panels and replaced them with two vent boots on either side of the unit. I painted the inside of the boots white and put screen over them, looks totally natural from the outside. I run the ducting into the lights from one side of the a/c, then I have to have the ducting do a 180 sharp turn back over the lights and out the other boot register on the other side of the window. I have a 8 inch vortex fan so it easily compensates for the high static pressure of my ducting bends. I have 2 six inch vortex fans with carbon filters: one just cleans the room&#8217;s air and the other is used for room exhaust in the cooler months. You can&#8217;t smell or hear a damn thing from that room.


 Waaaow! Noice work. You obviously have it knocked. Well done. 

Best wishes for continued success. 



mujujuju said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> First time poster; although i've been lurking your threads for a couple of weeks and am just blown away with how knowledgeable and objective you are. Fantastic contribution to the community that you have done here, Thank you!.


 No worries, thanks for the compliments. 


> I'm starting my first grow in a high rise building. I'm actually buying the place for this purpose but i will live there with my girlfriend (who owns a small business). My plan is to make one of the bedrooms into a stealth grow room. Being a high rise my main concerns are odour and noise. If i can find a way to vent into the central ducting without being too visible that will be my plan. Otherwise i will have to vent to a window (and i guess vent into my bathroom when the window washers come) I may need to muffle the exhaust though in either case.


 Challenging. 



> Could you look at my diagram and tell me if it looks ok? I'm basically going to try and copy your design as it looks fantastic and i like the steady flow of ganj.
> 
> notes:
> -ill be using STG filler and STG starter cubes in regular pots.
> ...


 OK. Bear in mind light is emitted mainly from the sides of the lamps. If you're lighting a rectangular area, the lamp should be oriented with its axis across the short dimension of the rectangle.



> My main questions are
> 
> 1. Do you think ill be OK with just 2 600w HPS for flower room to start? Ill add a 3rd 600w if needed.
> 2. Do i need to aerate the reservoir only while flooding or should i just let it run 24/7 so that the water is nice and oxygeny by the start of flood cycle
> ...


 If this is the blower you're talking about, should be OK. 

You may have trouble finding an inline carbon filter. They usually have duct flanges on one end and suck or blow air through the side of the canister. As such, you may want to use your carbon filter on the intake end of the cooltube duct line instead of inline on the exhaust end. Put the blower downstream from the the carbon intake filter but upstream from the lights so you're not moving warm air through it. Fan motors make a fair amount of heat and need cool air running through them. 

A carbon filter on the intake of the fan will muffle it's intake whoosh quite a lot. The duct line will silence the exhaust. You can throttle the fan back with a motor speed controller if necessary. 

Suggest you get a UV ioniser to address scents instead of using masking agents. Masking scents are often giveaways by themselves.

A pair of 600s will surprise you. You probably won't need a third. 

Aerate your reservoirs 24/7. 



matatan said:


> hey Al quick question for ya, i believe you answered this before but i couldnt find it, didnt know if it was this thread or your harvest every week thread.
> 
> what is the fastest way to establish mother(s) from seed?
> they are at day 22 in this pic.
> ...


 Great plan. 



> i was told to throw these into flower NOW and when they stretch take a cutting of each then ill know which are female. but my point is that then ill have to wait another month or more to be able to take good quality cuttings... or no? is this the way to go about it?


 Don't do that. Much better idea to sex the plants via cuttings. That way, the prospective mums remain in veg mode. A plant that has been shifted to flowering habit has to be revegged for about 6 weeks & cut back a couple of times before it produces proper veg habit growth again. 

Good luck. 



Swiezy said:


> Thanks for answers Al. U r using Canna Substra wich is run-to-waste nutrient. Isn't it better to use nutes for recirculatin systems? Like Canna Aqua?


I'm not using Substra. The ordinary Canna nutrient sold is Aus is Aqua, just isn't labelled as such. 



> Also room is 520ft3
> What do you think about 36 lollioped plants (Dinafem Critical+) in 1m^2 (3,3^2ft) tray? A 1000w HPS over two of them. All together 4 trays. I also plan to use 14l dehumidifier and exchange air once per minute. Can I still expect 0.75oz per plant when plants are so crowded? Is the airflow, light enough?
> 
> Best Regards


I think your plants/sq ft density might be a little high. I think I'd keep it to 2.5 plants sq ft. 1m^2 is close as dammit to 10 sq ft, so about 25, perhaps 27 in each 1m^2 tray. Be diligent about removing lower branches to maintain airflow. 




Shwagbag said:


> Perhaps that discussion is better suited for another part of the forum. Maybe Al would appreciate it if we changed the direction of the thread, back towards making dank. I think that would be a kind gesture.


Yeah. I don't think commercial strategies are wise to discuss in an open forum. Would suggest the authors bin those posts, if they don't mind.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2012)

Most disappointed that all the images accompanying my thread on cloning are gone. The thread is practically useless without them. 

I once had a library of several hundred images on RIU, once here Rollitup.org - Marijuna Pics - Gallery. They're gone, too. 

WTF, Admin?


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 25, 2012)

All the images from https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html are gone, too. 

Can we get these images restored, please?


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## Shwagbag (Aug 26, 2012)

Bummer dude... There was a crash this last winter and much of what was lost could not be restored. When is the last time you visited the thread? I wanna say I thought they were ok after the crash? Both awesome threads and very helpful for anyone looking to SoG and looking to add consistency to cloning.


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Aug 26, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Waaaow! Noice work. You obviously have it knocked. Well done.
> 
> Best wishes for continued success.


Wow, thanks Al! Means a LOT coming from you. Sorry about the commercial strategy talk, I'm new and I don't know what forum to go to for learning these things. I'll delete those posts ASAP if someone can teach me how to do this...

P.S. I can't believe the all those pics are gone! There's no way I could have learned from you as effectively as I have without your awesome pics! They gotta restore 'em...


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## Justaman519 (Aug 26, 2012)

Wow! Hey man!
First time writing anything on the Internet! I've read all your tutorials (I remember you from overgrow!)
Words can't explain how much you've helped the masses become better cultivators! I wish you and yours all the best. Your a celebrity rockstar! Thanks for your incredible patience and knowledge!


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## chusett (Aug 26, 2012)

Great thread..as always from Al B. Only thing I can say is I use the Botanicare line which I love and swear by!

I think they had a data dump awhile back or something, cuz I now have zero journal entries and I'm pretty sure I had a few, I can recall about 3..


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Bummer dude... There was a crash this last winter and much of what was lost could not be restored. When is the last time you visited the thread? I wanna say I thought they were ok after the crash? Both awesome threads and very helpful for anyone looking to SoG and looking to add consistency to cloning.


 Nah, all the images are gone. I really miss the library. I had a lot of 'hand drawings' ginned up in Photoshop in there that were handy for illustrating posts. Since I frequently re-address a certain topic, I'd grab those over & over. Grr.



Raphael Mechoulam said:


> Wow, thanks Al! Means a LOT coming from you. Sorry about the commercial strategy talk, I'm new and I don't know what forum to go to for learning these things. I'll delete those posts ASAP if someone can teach me how to do this...
> 
> P.S. I can't believe the all those pics are gone! There's no way I could have learned from you as effectively as I have without your awesome pics! They gotta restore 'em...


Pretty sure you tick a box on the post & you get some options. Could also edit it to remove the text. Failing that, I am a moderator and can do it for you if you want me to.



Justaman519 said:


> Wow! Hey man!
> First time writing anything on the Internet!


Aren't you a bit late to the party? 



> I've read all your tutorials (I remember you from overgrow!)


If you remember anything from 2006 and before, I'm not doing my job very well.  



> Words can't explain how much you've helped the masses become better cultivators! I wish you and yours all the best. Your a celebrity rockstar! Thanks for your incredible patience and knowledge!


I am positively blushing.  Thanks. 



chusett said:


> Great thread..as always from Al B. Only thing I can say is I use the Botanicare line which I love and swear by!


According to Botanicare's site, they offer a 'mineral based' (presumably inorganic) nutrient. This would be the only one in their line which would be compatible with H2O2. Pure Blend Pro isn't compatible. Managing nute cleanliness & thus root diseases is so much easier when you can use H2O2. 



> I think they had a data dump awhile back or something, cuz I now have zero journal entries and I'm pretty sure I had a few, I can recall about 3..


Yeah, I'm hearing that there was some sort of crash some time back. I hope there's backups.


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## Bigz2277 (Aug 27, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Nah, all the images are gone. I really miss the library. I had a lot of 'hand drawings' ginned up in Photoshop in there that were handy for illustrating posts. Since I frequently re-address a certain topic, I'd grab those over & over. Grr.
> 
> 
> Yeah, I'm hearing that there was some sort of crash some time back. I hope there's backups.


It was back in march. They had a group of hackers take over the servers and pretty much messed up every single line of code that went into this site, So they were forced to restore the servers to an image taken in feb. Over a month of RIU posts gone and pretty much all of the pictures. 

Unless this was a recent hack on the pictures that i wasn't aware of i dont see them coming back 

But as always Al you know we love all that you do for us. Keep it green brotha


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## Petch (Aug 27, 2012)

The 'Get a harvest every two weeks' thread had photos on it 6 weeks ago, I know cos I read it then.

sort it out ADMIN


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## chusett (Aug 27, 2012)

Hey Al.. yea I don't use the inorganic one .. but its OK not too bad with the microbes. I use some hygrozyme in there. I found some people dislike hygrozyme cause they think it causes all the nasty slime in the system when it was FINE like a day prior. The truth is.. you need to use hygrozyme pretty much from the getgo.. the system will stay clean. When you put in the zyme.. and you see the brown nastiness a day later.. all it meant is your system was not clean. Just keep doing it with the zyme should be fine. At least thats my way and how i keep em clean!


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## tyler.durden (Aug 27, 2012)

Awesome thread, Al! Sorry all those awesome pics are gone!


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 27, 2012)

chusett said:


> Hey Al.. yea I don't use the inorganic one .. but its OK not too bad with the microbes. I use some hygrozyme in there. I found some people dislike hygrozyme cause they think it causes all the nasty slime in the system when it was FINE like a day prior. The truth is.. you need to use hygrozyme pretty much from the getgo.. the system will stay clean. When you put in the zyme.. and you see the brown nastiness a day later.. all it meant is your system was not clean. Just keep doing it with the zyme should be fine. At least thats my way and how i keep em clean!


I'm not a fan of competing microbe pathogen control because sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't- and by the time you find out it hasn't worked, you have root probs that cut yields severely... but good luck. H2O2 is a sure thing, every single time. 

On another topic, I've edited some recent posts to remove discussion of commercial strategies. Keep that sort of thing to private messages, please.


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Aug 27, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Pretty sure you tick a box on the post & you get some options. Could also edit it to remove the text. Failing that, I am a moderator and can do it for you if you want me to.



Hey, Al! I cannot for the life of me find how to alter or delete those posts, so please do so at your discretion. Thanks again for everything. Subbed for more great info 

Edit: ROTFLMAO! Just read your edits, hilarious...


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## Taurich (Aug 27, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> STG cubes are available at most hydro shops. If your local doesn't have it, request that they stock it. I've just gotten a few plants though an 8 week flowering cycle in STG and find that the performance is similar to Fytocell. I did notice that the plants I recently ran in STG did perform better early on, but then some gnats got into the op & mucked things up a bit. STG cubes also have large air gaps between them, which makes it easier for fungus gnats to get into the rootmass. I'm going to get more STG cubes and try again when I have the gnats eliminated before I make any sort of final verdict on the stuff.


Thanks

I have some more questions regarding your other answers but this one is a bit more urgent.
I've asked my hydro shop about STG, they'd never heard of it so I requested if they could order it in. They call me back and say they're having some trouble shipping it in from the US, and asked if I knew anyone in Aus that stocked it.
So I'm wondering now if you could maybe PM me the number of your hydro shop, so I can give it to the girl at my hydro shop, so they can get me some STG shipped down 

Thanks ^^


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## chusett (Aug 27, 2012)

So Al.. you would say there are NO organic nutes that you like. You simply do inorganic? What would you recommend, is canna expensive?Ive used GH.. and Humboldt synthetic nutes and hated em. And h202 commercial grade 50 % i couldnt even find.. (in the past) can you advise where to find?

Thx Al


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## matatan (Aug 28, 2012)

how much veg time would you recommend for 9 plants on a 3x3table under a 600? im thinking about 10days, topped twice... trellis at day 10 of flower(hybrid,8-9week)
what you think Al?


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## Justaman519 (Aug 28, 2012)

Hey brother!
You were helping someone out a page or so back, and you mentioned the proper placement of the lamp on a rectangular table. Are you saying that the long part of the bulb (socket end) should cross the narrow part of the table? Sorry about the misunderstanding. Thanks man, take care!

The bulb should be perpendicular not parallel to the long side of the table?


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## Shwagbag (Aug 28, 2012)

chusett said:


> So Al.. you would say there are NO organic nutes that you like. You simply do inorganic? What would you recommend, is canna expensive?Ive used GH.. and Humboldt synthetic nutes and hated em. And h202 commercial grade 50 % i couldnt even find.. (in the past) can you advise where to find?
> 
> Thx Al


Depending on location, if you're in US the easiest way to get higher concentrations of H2O2 is at natural health food stores.


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## LivingCanvas (Aug 29, 2012)

Hey Al, not a big poster, but I read as much on forums as I can. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!! 

Couple questions for you if I may:

What I'm considering doing would involve a flood drain SoG style op.
My questions are:

4 Mother Plants/4 Strains good for SoG Style
4 Clones from each Mother every 2 weeks
16 clones per 4x4 tray staggered at 2 week intervals.

Do you think it would be successful to run plants in 
2gal smart pots filled with hydroton/plant for the flowering cycle with 8/16 Lucas. (Been using that in DWC previously)
I am a fan of keeping nutes simple, and systems simple (until I get room to go mad scientist with a HP Aero setup I've been collecting parts for.)

I figured hydroton, to be washed/sterilized/reused after each harvest to save on repurchasing media.
The smart pots I've used with organics, and I like the air pruning/the ability to water via leaching with the ebb/flow system.

I'd either be cloning in rockwool (Studying into that recently/looked at your guide/bout to make a 2nd test run) or my preferred method
via LPAero.

Also (probably strain dependent) do you think reasonably well rooted clones can take 8/16 Lucas (~1250ppm with R/O)
straight out of the cloner and into flower? (I'm hesitant, and fed my clones on 1/3 strength in DWC after roots were good/Don't wanna burn the hell out of em.)

Thanks!


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## tenthirty (Aug 29, 2012)

On a 4x4 tray, with less than say, 10 days veg. I would be sport'in about 36 to 40 plants per table.
With 16 I think that you are going to want some considerable veg time to fill in the canopy. 
What is your definition of successful?
Also reaching over a 4' table is a bit of a stretch for me.


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## Al B. Fuct (Aug 30, 2012)

First, thanks to Admin for fixing the images on my '2 weeks' & cloning threads. Much appreciated. Y old image gallery isn't back yet and may not be recoverable, but I will continue to hope. 



Raphael Mechoulam said:


> Hey, Al! I cannot for the life of me find how to alter or delete those posts, so please do so at your discretion. Thanks again for everything. Subbed for more great info
> 
> Edit: ROTFLMAO! Just read your edits, hilarious...


 menominah. 




Taurich said:


> Thanks
> 
> I have some more questions regarding your other answers but this one is a bit more urgent.
> I've asked my hydro shop about STG, they'd never heard of it so I requested if they could order it in. They call me back and say they're having some trouble shipping it in from the US, and asked if I knew anyone in Aus that stocked it.
> ...


 If you're in Aus, I'd suggest you use Fytocell. Contact Accent Hydroponics. They also may be stocking STG now. Accent does wholesale so your local shop probably already deals with them. 



chusett said:


> So Al.. you would say there are NO organic nutes that you like.


 Correct. 



> You simply do inorganic?


 Yep. 



> What would you recommend, is canna expensive?


 I _*would*_ recommend Canna- and it _*IS*_ expensive. However, you do get what you pay for. Canna has given me very consistent results for the last 10 years. And if the Canna rep is reading this, I'll be quite happy to accept a sponsorship, thankyouverymuch. 



> Ive used GH.. and Humboldt synthetic nutes and hated em.


 GH makes a good inorganic product. As long as you use it per mfrs instructions & not "Lucas formula" it's pretty reliable. I prefer 2-part nutrients as they are very simple to use. I still prefer Canna. 



> And h202 commercial grade 50 % i couldnt even find.. (in the past) can you advise where to find?


 Accent has 50% grade H2O2 in 25kg carboy jugs.



matatan said:


> how much veg time would you recommend for 9 plants on a 3x3table under a 600? im thinking about 10days, topped twice... trellis at day 10 of flower(hybrid,8-9week)
> what you think Al?


 If you want to grow plants in a SoG system, zero veg time. Clones go straight into flowering light cycle. No topping. Ever. Remove lower branching that gets more than about 1 inch long. 



Justaman519 said:


> Hey brother!
> You were helping someone out a page or so back, and you mentioned the proper placement of the lamp on a rectangular table. Are you saying that the long part of the bulb (socket end) should cross the narrow part of the table? Sorry about the misunderstanding. Thanks man, take care!
> 
> The bulb should be perpendicular not parallel to the long side of the table?


 Yep:

View attachment 2314240


Shwagbag said:


> Depending on location, if you're in US the easiest way to get higher concentrations of H2O2 is at natural health food stores.


Yep.



LivingCanvas said:


> Hey Al, not a big poster, but I read as much on forums as I can. Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us!!


No worries. 



> Couple questions for you if I may:
> 
> What I'm considering doing would involve a flood drain SoG style op.
> My questions are:
> ...


OK



> Do you think it would be successful to run plants in
> 2gal smart pots filled with hydroton/plant for the flowering cycle with 8/16 Lucas. (Been using that in DWC previously)
> I am a fan of keeping nutes simple, and systems simple (until I get room to go mad scientist with a HP Aero setup I've been collecting parts for.)
> 
> ...


 I think the term you're looking for is [water via] 'wicking.'

If it's simple you want, you should run flood systems and 2-part nutes. I am not a fan of Lucas. And I completely hate hydroton because it's hard to dispose of and nearly impossible to properly clean for re-use. I don't totally hate 'smart pots' but they're hard to clean and don't lend themselves to high levels of root oxygenation. Flood systems are dead easy and permit better application of aerated nutes to the rootzones. Even if you were to put an airstone in the res in a smart pot, the nutes would tend to lose dissolved O2 as it is wicked up to the rootzone. 



> I'd either be cloning in rockwool (Studying into that recently/looked at your guide/bout to make a 2nd test run) or my preferred method
> via LPAero.


If you can make aero work reliably, go for it. Unsupported roots can be easy to damage, so keep that in mind. 



> Also (probably strain dependent) do you think reasonably well rooted clones can take 8/16 Lucas (~1250ppm with R/O)


I'd go 1.5-1.6 EC (roughly 1000ppm on the Bluelab Truncheon). I wouldn't use Lucas. Further, I wouldn't use RO unless you're on a well/bore with high salinity or sulfur content. Municipal tapwater is just fine without RO. 



> straight out of the cloner and into flower? (I'm hesitant, and fed my clones on 1/3 strength in DWC after roots were good/Don't wanna burn the hell out of em.)


Yep, clones go straight into flower in SoG.



tenthirty said:


> On a 4x4 tray, with less than say, 10 days veg. I would be sport'in about 36 to 40 plants per table.
> With 16 I think that you are going to want some considerable veg time to fill in the canopy.
> What is your definition of successful?
> Also reaching over a 4' table is a bit of a stretch for me.


You're not sportin' until you have painted little racing stripes on each plant. Get busy. 

No veg time in SoG. Fill your lighted space with individual small plants, pruned as I have stated above. 

Successful in a SoG is around .5-.75oz/plant under HPS providing about 50W/sq ft. I'd use a 1000HPS over your 4x4 tray & pack it with about 40 plants.


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## chusett (Aug 30, 2012)

THANKS Al !!! 

Here i light you up


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## tenthirty (Aug 30, 2012)

> *You're not sportin' until you have painted little racing stripes on each plant. Get busy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Al,

What I am finding in my situation, is that I'm having to clone for 10 or so days, then put the babies in 4" rockwool cubes and let them root for another 5 or 10 day to get an acceptable root mass by the time they go to flower.
So you could call it a preveg, or veg, do you have any trick to get the roots to grow bigger, better, faster on the clones? 
The section of time from rooting to the start of flower is really critical for root development IMHO.

By the way....SOG, Sweet tooth #4/Alien-Dawg rotation, 4" rockwool blocks, and monthy harvests.

And I'm trying to teach them to grow racing stripes!!


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## Petch (Sep 1, 2012)

Hi Al,

Quick question. I realise now that for successful clones I need mother plants, as you advised me in an earlier post. I need 10-12 clones every 4 weeks, how many mother plants do I really need? less the better for me. I have a feeling you're going to say 4?

I do deviate away from your method in areas, but follow the basics. I like to grow different strains, which makes things a less predictable than growing the same strain. Do you have a conclusion yet on Sure To Grow? or still to early to properly evaluate?

again cheers for your help.

ps. Unrelated question, what largers do aussie's drink? Here in England we assume you drink Castlemaine XXXX or Fosters as both are Aussie beers, Castlemain is goat's piss, weak shit beer, stopped being sold here in 2009 you can keep it, and fosters, although heavily marketed as an Aussie beer, with the sterotypical Aussie round a bbq.... throw another shrimp on the barby etc... is brewed in bloody Scotland, which is about as Australian as...er...rain. Surely you have a better selection than that, and do you have any English beers? As you may have gathered I like my beer almost as much as weed.


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## LivingCanvas (Sep 1, 2012)

Thanks Al! Several good points! 

I'm very n00b when it comes to RockWool in flood tables. I haven't the first idea about timing the flood cycles.
I've done flood with hydroton, but it dries much more quickly. 

In rockwool, will larger plants (or even SoG popsicles) pull enough water to dry out the slabs
if your flood cycle fully saturates them?

Or is the point, to flood only long enough to thoroughly wet the RW, but not fully saturate?
(So there is still pockets of air for oxygen transfer)

I assume that you find it easier to dispose of rockwool over soil. And maybe I'm too high...
Right now I'm wondering if I saw you grow in RW or coco... DOH!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2012)

Petch said:


> Hi Al,
> 
> Quick question. I realise now that for successful clones I need mother plants, as you advised me in an earlier post. I need 10-12 clones every 4 weeks, how many mother plants do I really need? less the better for me. I have a feeling you're going to say 4?


Yes, 4, but you will find that you need to prune the mother plants every 2 weeks. Since you're only doing clones every 4 weeks, every other batch of cuttings from pruning will go to compost. 


> I do deviate away from your method in areas, but follow the basics. I like to grow different strains, which makes things a less predictable than growing the same strain. Do you have a conclusion yet on Sure To Grow? or still to early to properly evaluate?


STG is definitely a good medium, but I haven't had a batch of plants go through the entire chain in STG without some confounding problem that clouds the actual results from the medium. I did find that plants got off to a better, more vigorous start in STG than in Fytocell. I also found that the larger air passages between STG cubes provided easier access to sciarid fly (fungus gnat) larvae, deeper into the rootmass. Fytocell is more gnat resistant. 



> ps. Unrelated question, what lagers do aussie's drink? Here in England we assume you drink Castlemaine XXXX or Fosters as both are Aussie beers, Castlemain is goat's piss, weak shit beer, stopped being sold here in 2009 you can keep it, and fosters, although heavily marketed as an Aussie beer, with the sterotypical Aussie round a bbq.... throw another shrimp on the barby etc... is brewed in bloody Scotland, which is about as Australian as...er...rain. Surely you have a better selection than that, and do you have any English beers? As you may have gathered I like my beer almost as much as weed.


I personally do not drink alcohol. I was a pro-drunk in uni like everyone else but got bored with it soon after. May have had 5 beers in the last 25 years and 4 of them would almost certainly be Guinness. Thus, I'm probably not a good person to ask about beer. However, I can tell you that the most popular beer in Aus is probably VB (Victoria Bitter), closely followed by XXXX (mainly in QLD). Nobody in Australia drinks Fosters. It's an export brand. I can seriously say that after around 20yrs here, I've never once seen anyone with a Fosters in their hand. I'm not even sure if I could buy it at the local bottle-o.



LivingCanvas said:


> Thanks Al! Several good points!
> 
> I'm very n00b when it comes to RockWool in flood tables. I haven't the first idea about timing the flood cycles.
> I've done flood with hydroton, but it dries much more quickly.


Yes, you can flood pellets 2-3x/day, sometimes more with big plants. 


> In rockwool, will larger plants (or even SoG popsicles) pull enough water to dry out the slabs
> if your flood cycle fully saturates them?


RW floc holds too much water as a general rule for SoG lollipops, which are not large plants. Even in wks 6-8, SoG plants really could be watered only 1x every 2 days in RW floc. This is why I searched out a less absorbent medium some years back and settled on Fytocell. The only plants I currently grow in straight RW floc are my mother plants, which DO become really quite large and can empty an 8" pot of RW floc of all its moisture in less than 24h. 

Would recommend that you find a less-absorbent medium than RW floc. Fytocell's great if you can get it, STG cubes are quite good, you can also use perlite. Bear in mind that if you use a medium composed of fine particles like Fytocell or perlite, you will want a very thin layer of RW floc (perhaps 25mm) in the bottoms of the pots to act as a filter to keep the fine particles from escaping the drain holes in the pots. 



> Or is the point, to flood only long enough to thoroughly wet the RW, but not fully saturate?
> (So there is still pockets of air for oxygen transfer)


The right amount of watering depends on the amount of water that can be removed by the plant, and to a lesser degree by evaporation directly from the medium. Ideally, you water your plants when half the water in the medium has been taken up by the plant/evaporated. It's complicated to water at exactly the right time with automated watering systems, so you need a medium that doesn't fully saturate- rather, has airspaces and will drain freely. Fytocell is particularly good for this. You can immerse it fully and once the excess drains off, there's still enough air in the rootzone to promote a healthy rootmass. 

Not having lots of airspaces, as with saturated RW floc, is less of a problem for larger plants as they will suck up water quickly and not allow stagnation. However, all big plants are once small... 


> I assume that you find it easier to dispose of rockwool over soil. And maybe I'm too high...
> Right now I'm wondering if I saw you grow in RW or coco... DOH!


RW floc is generally easy to dispose of but tends to be heavy if you don't allow it to dry before putting it in the bin. Soil always is heavy & near impossible to dry. However, it can be dug into gardens. Soil contains organic matter and microbes, so it's not suitable for use in hydroponics anyway.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 3, 2012)

Word for the day: *VACUUMSEALERSFUCKYEAH*


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## Taurich (Sep 3, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> STG is definitely a good medium, but I haven't had a batch of plants go through the entire chain in STG without some confounding problem that clouds the actual results from the medium. I did find that plants got off to a better, more vigorous start in STG than in Fytocell. I also found that the larger air passages between STG cubes provided easier access to sciarid fly (fungus gnat) larvae, deeper into the rootmass. Fytocell is more gnat resistant.


Have you tried the STG loose fill? It's the same material as the hail, but cheaper and you can control the amount of air-voids by how densely you pack it in.
At the very least it wouldn't have the spacious voids you would get between cubes.
If you haven't tried it yet, I plan on doing my next crop on it, will report on how it compares to RW.



Al B. Fuct said:


> I personally do not drink alcohol. I was a pro-drunk in uni like everyone else but got bored with it soon after. May have had 5 beers in the last 25 years and 4 of them would almost certainly be Guinness. Thus, I'm probably not a good person to ask about beer. However, I can tell you that the most popular beer in Aus is probably VB (Victoria Bitter), closely followed by XXXX (mainly in QLD). Nobody in Australia drinks Fosters. It's an export brand. I can seriously say that after around 20yrs here, I've never once seen anyone with a Fosters in their hand. I'm not even sure if I could buy it at the local bottle-o.


Oh I'm gonna chime in too. Confirming that no Australian in the history of ever, has ever enjoyed a Fosters. As the old joke goes, we send it overseas for a reason.
Down in vic we mostly drink Carlton Draught, Carlton Cold, VB, and Corona. All those are popular mass produced beer (and pretty crap). I personally drink MB (Melbourne Bitter) and a few microbrews like White Rabbit, Beez-Neez, or Mountain Goat


---

Oh and one quick question, what is the small (1-2mm long) white moth-like insect I see flying around my crops and how do I eliminate it before it becomes a problem? What if any substances should I use to prevent insects like this from gaining a foothold?

--- 
Double edit: Oh I had a couple basic questions, stuff that I'm not sure I'm doing right. Such as;
a) Res depletion. How do you maintain res level? Do you let it deplete over time then dispose of the tails (last 30-40% of the sauce) and remix a new batch? Or do you constantly keep refilling the res with premixed sauce until it's time to change the recipe such as when introducing PK or altering EC? 
I started off topping up with plain water to balance my EC rise (0.2-0.3 per day on a full tank, double that near end of tank cycle), eventually draining tails and remixing but found it a nightmare with constantly varying EC and flood levels. Nowadays I'm simply topping up the tank each day with a seperate (fresh) sauce, and adding H2O2 (plus maybe a few drops of PHd). 
It seems to be fairly stable with no unusual nutrient imbalances in the plants, my theory is the canna nutes have buffers of a high quality that ensure the ratios stay within the ideal range. Microbial growth does not seem to be a problem either as I apply H2O2 daily, I felt that H2O2 mostly decomposes in the first 24h (not a chemist, just noticed a lot less effervescence in day old solutions), so I apply ~0.4ml/day rather than 1ml/3day.

b) Lollipopping. What exactly is your pruning technique here? When you say cut off any branches over 1" in length, do you mean *any* branches on the plant, or do you specifically only prune branches on the lower half of the plant? What if a week or two after pruning, some short branches rapidly stretched to well exceed the 1" length, would you prune these off too or do you strictly prune only once?
I think I've been doing it wrong, I just do one round of pruning and don't cut longer branches that are fairly high up on the plant. My plants def don't look like yours, I end up with 1 pretty big bud (or sometimes the plant goes funny and grows a few decent heads instead of a big cola), usually surrounded by a crown of mid-decent sized buds, and a lower crown of crap-mid buds. Am I right in guessing that I should be more aggressive with my branch pruning? Is there a point in time at which I should not attempt pruning any more? I'd personally feel dicy pruning after week 4 or 5 but I'm a rookie so I'll defer to you 
Also, should I prune before or after the initial stretch?

c) PK Use, I know you were saying you are currently using 1.5ml PK & 3ml Nutes during 5/6 of flower, I'm wondering what your traditional nute levels are without the PK, seen as I'm using a similar sauce mixture I can use yours to predict mine. Currently I'm using 0.4-0.5ml of cal-mag (for an EC of 0.2), and ~3.4ml of canna flores for a total EC of 2.0. I'd like to hear what EC you'd usually run, I'm noticing a little tip burn so I'm thinking of dialing the canna down for total EC 1.8


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 4, 2012)

Taurich said:


> Have you tried the STG loose fill? It's the same material as the hail, but cheaper and you can control the amount of air-voids by how densely you pack it in.
> At the very least it wouldn't have the spacious voids you would get between cubes.
> If you haven't tried it yet, I plan on doing my next crop on it, will report on how it compares to RW.


I reckon that would work better. Let us know how you go. 



> Oh I'm gonna chime in too. Confirming that no Australian in the history of ever, has ever enjoyed a Fosters. As the old joke goes, we send it overseas for a reason.
> Down in vic we mostly drink Carlton Draught, Carlton Cold, VB, and Corona. All those are popular mass produced beer (and pretty crap). I personally drink MB (Melbourne Bitter) and a few microbrews like White Rabbit, Beez-Neez, or Mountain Goat


Fosters: it's Australian for whatthefuckISthat?



> Oh and one quick question, what is the small (1-2mm long) white moth-like insect I see flying around my crops and how do I eliminate it before it becomes a problem? What if any substances should I use to prevent insects like this from gaining a foothold?


99% chance it's whitefly. Sap-sucking insect, spreads fungi, makes a hell of a mess of things if left to its own devices. Fairly easy to eradicate with the neonicotinoid insecticide Confidor (avail at any hdwe or garden shop). I think there's an 8 day withholding period for fruits & veg (and buds for that matter) treated with Confidor. Read the label. When applying, use a couple drops of liquid dish soap per litre of mixed Confidor as a wetting agent- and spray the holy shit out of everything. Pay particular attention to spraying the underside of leaves. I use a workshop air compressor & a paint spraygun to apply such things. You want to kill them all in one go. Bugs will develop a resistance if they get a sublethal dose. KILL ALL THE THINGS.




> Double edit: Oh I had a couple basic questions, stuff that I've read but not sure if I've interpreted correctly. Such as;
> a) Res depletion. How do you maintain res level? Do you let it deplete over time then dispose of the tails (last 30-40% of the sauce) and remix a new batch? Or do you constantly keep refilling the res with premixed sauce until it's time to change the recipe (such as when introducing PK or altering EC)?


My tanks provide 5L/plant capacity. That capacity matches fairly closely the water & nutrient consumption of the plants; this is to say that the nutrient concentration stays fairly constant as the water level in the tanks drops. I don't generally top up, either with water or mixed nute sauce. Any sauce remaining at the end of 14-15 days goes down the drain & fresh nutes mixed. Tank 3 is the exception- I run PK at 1-1.5ml/L & Flores at 3ml/L in that one for 7 days, then dump & make up a new tank with 4ml/L Flores in the 125L tank. In 7 days, that'll go down the drain and all 4 tanks get dumped & renewed, with the PK/Flores mix in tank 3. Rinse, lather, repeat. 



> b) Lollipopping. What exactly is your pruning technique here? When you say cut off any branches over 1" in length, do you mean *any* branches on the plant, or do you specifically only prune branches on the lower half of the plant? What if a week or two after pruning, some short branches rapidly stretched to well exceed the 1" length, would you prune these off too or do you strictly prune only once?


I generally prune twice (end wk1 & 2), sometimes 3x (end wk3). Yes, it's only the branching on the lower 1/3 of the plant, because that's where such branching will appear. You want to confine bud development to the big nugs that have basically no stem length, those which are tight up against the mainstem.



> c) PK Use, I know you were saying you are currently using 1.5ml PK & 3ml Nutes during 5/6 of flower, I'm wondering what your traditional nute levels are without the PK, seen as I'm using a similar sauce mixture I can use yours to predict mine. Currently I'm using 0.4-0.5ml of cal-mag (for an EC of 0.2), and ~3.4ml of canna flores (for a total sauce EC of 2.0). I'd like to hear what EC you'd usually run


When I mix 4ml/L Flores in a 125L tank, the EC will be about 1.4-1.5, roughly 1100ppm on the Truncheon. Might be as high as 1250 depending upon variations in tapwater. 

The CalMag probably isn't necessary if you're on municipal tapwater. Most water catchments have limestone substrates, which will provide plenty of Ca & Mg in most cases.


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## Shwagbag (Sep 4, 2012)

lol, well said.. "KILL ALL THE THINGS"

Found some spider mites in my room. Operation Eradication underway!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> lol, well said.. "KILL ALL THE THINGS"
> 
> Found some spider mites in my room. Operation Eradication underway!


You can try Confidor on mites but I'd recommend some heavier artillery on them. Avamectin (sometimes spelled abamectin) is the go for mites. Same advice, spray like you've never sprayed before. 

BTW, use a filter mask, gloves & safety goggles which protect your eyes from mist when applying avamectin. It's gnarlier stuff than Confidor.


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## Shwagbag (Sep 5, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You can try Confidor on mites but I'd recommend some heavier artillery on them. Avamectin (sometimes spelled abamectin) is the go for mites. Same advice, spray like you've never sprayed before.
> 
> BTW, use a filter mask, gloves & safety goggles which protect your eyes from mist when applying avamectin. It's gnarlier stuff than Confidor.


Thanks Al! I'm spraying like I've sprayed before though. I've had them once or twice before and I share your mentality. CRUSH them and be done with it. I'm using Azamax this time as I have it on the shelf in my room and I need to get rid of some of my excessive growing supplies. I have a tendency to buy way more than I need lol. I think the active ingredient in Azamax is Azadirachtin, said to be derived from organic compounds. Thankfully none of the late flowering plants have been effected as far as I can tell from a visible inspection. For some reason they're only effecting 2 phenos of the same strain - Sannies Jackberry.

I'll


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 5, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Thanks Al! I'm spraying like I've sprayed before though. I've had them once or twice before and I share your mentality. CRUSH them and be done with it. I'm using Azamax this time as I have it on the shelf in my room and I need to get rid of some of my excessive growing supplies. I have a tendency to buy way more than I need lol. I think the active ingredient in Azamax is Azadirachtin, said to be derived from organic compounds. Thankfully none of the late flowering plants have been effected as far as I can tell from a visible inspection. For some reason they're only effecting 2 phenos of the same strain - Sannies Jackberry.


Don't forget, 'organic' doesn't mean 'good,' 'better' or 'safe.' For reference's sake, cyanide is a 100% natural organic compound. 

Regardless, it's a good idea to not spray late flowering plants with anything, 'organic' or not.


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## Shwagbag (Sep 5, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Don't forget, 'organic' doesn't mean 'good,' 'better' or 'safe.' For reference's sake, cyanide is a 100% natural organic compound.
> 
> Regardless, it's a good idea to not spray late flowering plants with anything, 'organic' or not.


Agreed 100%. I wouldn't spray anything past within 3 -4 weeks of harvest. I like to follow up with a few foliar sprays of just water just before lights out "after the smoke has cleared and the rubble has been swept away." - Tenacious D


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Sep 6, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Thanks Al! I'm spraying like I've sprayed before though. I've had them once or twice before and I share your mentality. CRUSH them and be done with it. I'm using Azamax this time as I have it on the shelf in my room and I need to get rid of some of my excessive growing supplies. I have a tendency to buy way more than I need lol. I think the active ingredient in Azamax is Azadirachtin, said to be derived from organic compounds. Thankfully none of the late flowering plants have been effected as far as I can tell from a visible inspection. For some reason they're only effecting 2 phenos of the same strain - Sannies Jackberry.
> 
> I'll


Everything was going so smoothly with my grow, then a week ago I noticed the dreaded little white spots on one plant. I turned over the leaves and found only two adult black mites and a few eggs. I haven't had fucking mites in over a year! I ran to the hydro shop and bought azamax, as I've used it with great success in the past. I think I went a little overboard with the dosage, and now my girls don't look as happy: a little leaf curling almost like nute burn. I only found two affected plants out of about a hundred, so I guess I panicked. I sprayed every plant heavily and even sprayed the top of the perlite in all my pots. Absolutely no sign of mites now, do you think rinsing some of the Azamax off by spraying with plain water would help? At low dosages, my girls used to love azamax looking shiny and healthy. Oh well, live and learn I guess...


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## iDC5 (Sep 6, 2012)

i think the problem is you let too much touch the soil!


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Sep 6, 2012)

iDC5 said:


> i think the problem is you let too much touch the soil!


That could be it, although I use straight perlite. I know that you can use azamax in the rez tank and as a soil drench, but it's probably that my dosage was too high. I've been wanting to know if azamax is compatible with h202 so I could add it to the rez, but I haven't found any info on that either way...


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## Shwagbag (Sep 6, 2012)

Doubtful you got enough into the root zone to harm them. I administered on the higher side of the recommending chart for foliar spray and mine also were stressed from it. I'll be doing the lighter application for the 2nd and 3rd sprays.


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## YodaadoY (Sep 7, 2012)

Does anyone have the forumla to calculate how much H2O2 is needed if 50% strength cant be found. Say maybe 18% or 35%...I cant seem to calculate it, math must be rusty


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## Shwagbag (Sep 7, 2012)

If I recall 1.7 ml/L is the rate for 35% and 1.0 ml/L for 50% per Al's recommendation but I would wait to hear back from him personally. I Garn'tee he knows the math behind it lol.


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## Bigz2277 (Sep 8, 2012)

scroll back like 10 pages. He covered h202 dosages couple weeks ago.


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## firsttimeARE (Sep 8, 2012)

If 1ml of 50% is recommended thats .5ml of h2o2. So take .5 and divide it by any percentage to get the ml.

So if its 18% it would be .5 divided by .18 to get 2.7ml
25% is .5 divided by .25 = 2ml
30% is .5 divided by .30 = 1.7ml
35% is .5 divided by .35 = 1.4ml
50% is .5 divided by .5 = 1ml
90% is .5 divided by .9 =.55ml


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 9, 2012)

Apropos of nothing at all- Shel Silverstein:

[video=youtube;GVfE_-ZJAxc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVfE_-ZJAxc[/video]



Shwagbag said:


> Agreed 100%. I wouldn't spray anything past within 3 -4 weeks of harvest. I like to follow up with a few foliar sprays of just water just before lights out "after the smoke has cleared and the rubble has been swept away." - Tenacious D


 Foliar spraying really should only be done in lights on, with plenty of time for leaves to dry before lights-off. Wet leaves in cool, dark conditions invites mould- powdery mildew, botyritis etc. 



Raphael Mechoulam said:


> Everything was going so smoothly with my grow, then a week ago I noticed the dreaded little white spots on one plant. I turned over the leaves and found only two adult black mites and a few eggs. I haven't had fucking mites in over a year! I ran to the hydro shop and bought azamax, as I've used it with great success in the past. I think I went a little overboard with the dosage, and now my girls don't look as happy: a little leaf curling almost like nute burn. I only found two affected plants out of about a hundred, so I guess I panicked. I sprayed every plant heavily and even sprayed the top of the perlite in all my pots. Absolutely no sign of mites now, do you think rinsing some of the Azamax off by spraying with plain water would help? At low dosages, my girls used to love azamax looking shiny and healthy. Oh well, live and learn I guess...


 Try not to panic when applying miticides etc. Use the recommended dosage rate. Once you see any symptom of damage to the plants, it's usually permanent. Some 'organic' and 'natural' insecticides use oils to suffocate bugs, which breathe through pores in their bodies. Problem is, leaves work the same way. Plug leaf stomata & you will kill the leaf.



YodaadoY said:


> Does anyone have the forumla to calculate how much H2O2 is needed if 50% strength cant be found. Say maybe 18% or 35%...I cant seem to calculate it, math must be rusty


well...



Shwagbag said:


> If I recall 1.7 ml/L is the rate for 35% and 1.0 ml/L for 50% per Al's recommendation but I would wait to hear back from him personally. I Garn'tee he knows the math behind it lol.


For 30%, it's 50/30= 1.666 (1.7) ml/L.

For 35%, it's 50/35= 1.428 (1.4) ml/L.



firsttimeARE said:


> If 1ml of 50% is recommended thats .5ml of h2o2. So take .5 and divide it by any percentage to get the ml.
> 
> So if its 18% it would be .5 divided by .18 to get 2.7ml
> 25% is .5 divided by .25 = 2ml
> ...


Yep, that's how she goes. 

Remember, pharmacy grade 3-10% is not useful as you have to use far too much (simply uneconomical) and low strength H2O2 contains stannate stabilisers, which are toxic to plants.


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## hxvoc (Sep 9, 2012)

A few questions for the great Al,

My ppm stays the same throught a week and my res just loses water

When you top up with plain tapwater, does it effect the ppm levels at all? and if so, do you add back nutes to keep the desired ppm until your 2 week tank flush? 

Ive heard too addback plain water with no nutes, but wouldnt this dilute your solution if its already at the correct ppm? 

When my ph drops or raises by a point (5.9,5.7) should I adjust immedietly back to the suggested 5.8?

Ive left the lid off my res and been adding h202 at the reccomended doses, but I still seam to get white bubble slime floating and sticking to pumps by the end of week 1.

The 200ppm tap I am running contains high traces of calcium, and adding 1/4 tspn epsom seems to help with the purpleing of stems. Is it safe to add epsom at that rate before I add nutes to the desired strength? And do I sutract the starting ppm after I add epsom or before?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 9, 2012)

hxvoc said:


> A few questions for the great Al,


*blush* OK



> My ppm stays the same throught a week and my res just loses water


Sounds like your res is the right size for the number of plants it's supplying. 



> When you top up with plain tapwater, does it effect the ppm levels at all? and if so, do you add back nutes to keep the desired ppm until your 2 week tank flush?


If your nute concentration is staying constant as the water level drops, there's no real need to top up between 2 week renewal intervals.



> Ive heard too addback plain water with no nutes, but wouldn't this dilute your solution if its already at the correct ppm?


It would, and that's why you don't really need to top up. Just let the level fall until it's time to mix up a new tank of sauce. As long as there's enough sauce in the res to fill the tray to the overfill, there's no need to top up. 



> When my ph drops or raises by a point (5.9,5.7) should I adjust immedietly back to the suggested 5.8?


It's most likely that the pH will rise rather than drop. pH should stay steady unless you top up with plain tapwater (usually 7.5-8 due to chlorination) or if there's a high pathogen (pythium, fusarium) load in the system. If you're dosing your tanks with H2O2 every 3-4 days, you shouldn't have any pathogen problems. However, if your pH does jump up by more than .2, do adjust it down to 5.8. If you're not topping up & don't have pathogen issues, your pH shouldn't wander much. 



> Ive left the lid off my res and been adding h202 at the reccomended doses, but I still seam to get white bubble slime floating and sticking to pumps by the end of week 1.


There's apparently a high enough pathogen load in your system that the usual periodic dosage isn't enough to keep your pathogens in check. The H2O2 you're getting may not be the strength that it says on the bottle (long term storage of H2O2 can reduce the concentration). Do a once-off shock treatment of 50% grade H2O2 at 10ml/L & then return to 1ml/L 3-4 days later. See if that doesn't sort it out. 



> The 200ppm tap I am running contains high traces of calcium, and adding 1/4 tspn epsom seems to help with the purpleing of stems. Is it safe to add epsom at that rate before I add nutes to the desired strength? And do I sutract the starting ppm after I add epsom or before?


Subtract the TDS of the tapwater and that added by the Epsom salts from the final figure post adding your nutes. TDS readings unfortunately only give you an indication of the total conductivity of the solution; doesn't tell you specifically how much N, P & K is in the solution. Mg & Ca won't contribute to nute burn. So, if you have 200ppm indicated in plan tapwater and the MgSO4 adds another 100ppm, subtract 300ppm from the figure you see from the solution with nutes mixed in.


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## hxvoc (Sep 10, 2012)

Thanks a a ton Al, I will definetly be using all this info and applying it to my grow immedietly. 

I dont doubt that my grow shop is selling outdated h202. Before settling with F&D and learning the basics for plant survival, he sold me about everything in the shop that I didnt need. All this is of course high on the shelf now. 

I try not to ask question that you have repeatedly answered as I have tried to read every post you have ever writtin. There is no doubt in my mind that this is the most informative thread about growing cannabis on the net.

With information such as this at everyones fingertips, all other threads concerning marijuana botany should be deleted. 

Thanks a ton AL!


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Sep 10, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Try not to panic when applying miticides etc. Use the recommended dosage rate. Once you see any symptom of damage to the plants, it's usually permanent. Some 'organic' and 'natural' insecticides use oils to suffocate bugs, which breathe through pores in their bodies. Problem is, leaves work the same way. Plug leaf stomata & you will kill the leaf.


Thanks Al. Yeah, the ladies are looking better now, especially the new growth, and buds are forming nicely. Azamax directions say that in can be used in the rez and plants will safely take it up through the roots to be bug-free, but I don't know if it's compatible with h202 and I can't find the info anywhere. What do you think, Al? I know that azamax is a concentrated neem-oil derivative. On an unrelated topic, why do the ladies smell so strong immediately after lights off?


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## The New Jim Jones (Sep 11, 2012)

christ this is too much for my stoned tired brain right now, ill check back later, even though im all soil, i like to know all the options, and how to correctly execute them


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## Trap Bunkin (Sep 11, 2012)

@ jim jones

If you come to the hydro side Jim you wont look back. 

Other threads and advice on hydro offer very complex and unnecessary practices to what should be a very simple routine. If you have time, read through this entire thread and also his original "get a harvest every 2 weeks". At some point throughout both threads EVERY question on how to replicate this op has been explained. I have read each thread, twice. I have even read the "batch of clones in rockwool" several times, even though I do not use RW. 

Good Luck!


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 11, 2012)

BTW, doing a shock treatment at 10ml/L can get kinda exxy if you're dosing a full tank. You can save some dough by doing the shock with only partial tank of water. 

Fill the res with water only as high as is necessary to flood the tray to the overflow, probably only 20-25% full in most cases. Say you're using 125L tanks; fill only to 25L & add 250ml 50% grade H2O2. Run the pump to fill the tray to overflow & let drain. Then you can either dump that shock treatment mix & mix a new batch of sauce with 1ml/L 50% H2O2 or you can just fill the res with water & add nutes as per usual. In the case of a 125L tank, you're saving a litre of H2O2 but still getting the high concentration needed to purge the system of pathogens.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 11, 2012)

Raphael Mechoulam said:


> Thanks Al. Yeah, the ladies are looking better now, especially the new growth, and buds are forming nicely. Azamax directions say that in can be used in the rez and plants will safely take it up through the roots to be bug-free, but I don't know if it's compatible with h202 and I can't find the info anywhere. What do you think, Al? I know that azamax is a concentrated neem-oil derivative. On an unrelated topic, why do the ladies smell so strong immediately after lights off?


H2O2 tends to react with organic matter, not necessarily plant oils like neem. H2O2 will instantly oxidise things like enzymes (which are proteins, organic matter) and predatory or competitive bacteria. Should be OK with just neem oil. 

When your lights shut off, your temp-operated exhaust fan will likely shut off. Stopping ventilation may account for more intense aromas in the flowering room.



The New Jim Jones said:


> christ this is too much for my stoned tired brain right now, ill check back later, even though im all soil, i like to know all the options, and how to correctly execute them


Soil is far too much work. Messy, heavy, low production compared to even flood & drain hydroponics.


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## Shwagbag (Sep 11, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Soil is far too much work. Messy, heavy, low production compared to even flood & drain hydroponics.


To each their own really.... But with a well formulated soil mix its quite simple, just add water  With the right strains I can knock down 16-18 zips in a 4 x 4 space per month. SOMEDAY I will use your method, which I very much look forward to, I just don't have the time to maintain 4 reservoirs compared to a just add water approach with a soil mix. Or at least the change scares the hell out of me lol. I REALLY want to get a small tray running this winter if time permits to get my feet wet with your method, probably start with a small tray with 5 or 6 1 liter pots and see if I can't dial it in.

I honestly adopted some of your method to set up my perpetual though, 4 plants roughly 8 week strains, every 2 weeks one plant comes out and another one goes in averaging about 4 zips per plant.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 11, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> To each their own really.... But with a well formulated soil mix its quite simple, just add water  With the right strains I can knock down 16-18 zips in a 4 x 4 space per month. SOMEDAY I will use your method, which I very much look forward to, I just don't have the time to maintain 4 reservoirs compared to a just add water approach with a soil mix. Or at least the change scares the hell out of me lol. I REALLY want to get a small tray running this winter if time permits to get my feet wet with your method, probably start with a small tray with 5 or 6 1 liter pots and see if I can't dial it in.
> 
> I honestly adopted some of your method to set up my perpetual though, 4 plants roughly 8 week strains, every 2 weeks one plant comes out and another one goes in averaging about 4 zips per plant.


Unfortunately, this is not a 'to each their own' sort of judgment call. Hydroponics, even very simple systems like flood & drain, will always outperform soil, mainly due to increased oxygenation to the roots. Wick hydro systems (aka 'smart pots') perform similarly to soil due to similar levels of root oxygenation. Further, use of sterile media with each crop eliminates the chance of soilborne root disorders. Even freshly mixed potting soil will contain a certain amount of fungi & other pathogens. 

This is a change you should in no way fear- nowhere to go but up.


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## The New Jim Jones (Sep 11, 2012)

after this harvest i have to move my setup, so when i do, ill try out some simple DIY hydro, i have heard quite a lot of good shit about hydro, its just a mystery to me, and what humans dont know scares them. I am human. Hydro is a mystery to me. Therefore Hydro scares me, no but honestly it sounds awesome, harvest every 2 weeks is beyond insane, if i ever could do that i would, i will seriously read this thread in a couple of months after i harvest, until then im subbed


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## Trap Bunkin (Sep 11, 2012)

There is somewhere in these threads that explains how and why DIY flood trays are not economical. Everything else can be DIY but it is advised that you purchase the flood trays from your local hydro shop.


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## Taurich (Sep 12, 2012)

First time I grew in hydro I had no idea what I was doing, not only had I not grown any plants before (let alone weed), but I really didn't understand the flood and drain system I was using, started from seed, and I was constantly running back to the hydro store for extra supplies. I killed a bunch of plants, burnt some plants early then underfed them late. In short I did just about everything you could do to ensure a terrible harvest

For my 3 months of toil and mistakes I got 14oz of some of the finest smoke I've ever toked (at the time), the crop after yielded over a pound, the crop after yielded more again.

Go to hydro guys, it's totally worth it


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## The New Jim Jones (Sep 12, 2012)

fucking shit balls, i got one oz offa three shitty sativas the first time i grew


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## Taurich (Sep 14, 2012)

Maybe not totally relevant, but made me giggle ^^
http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/386184_473081616046188_2109145821_n.jpg


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 15, 2012)

The New Jim Jones said:


> after this harvest i have to move my setup, so when i do, ill try out some simple DIY hydro, i have heard quite a lot of good shit about hydro, its just a mystery to me, and what humans dont know scares them. I am human. Hydro is a mystery to me. Therefore Hydro scares me, no but honestly it sounds awesome, harvest every 2 weeks is beyond insane, if i ever could do that i would, i will seriously read this thread in a couple of months after i harvest, until then im subbed


 Not sure what you mean by 'DIY' hydro. It's all kinda DIY. For your first hydro system, I strongly recommend a flood & drain type, the whole of which is commercially available- and works better than anything you'll gin up yourself. You'll spend a few bux getting up & going, but it will repay you rapidly. I'd make more specific recommendations, but I don't know what sort of a space you have to work with, so I'd just be spinning my wheels a bit. Let me know when you get closer to set-up time.



The New Jim Jones said:


> fucking shit balls, i got one oz offa three shitty sativas the first time i grew


In the SoG method, if you control temp & humidity properly as well as provide sufficient light intensity (50W/sq ft of HPS is a coarse guide i.e. a 400HPS will give 8 sq ft of solid buds) and grow about 2.5 plants/sq ft, you should be getting .5-.75oz per plant. For the example of a 400 over 8sq ft, with about 20 plants, you should pull about 10-15oz, presuming a decent yielding indica dominant hybrid. If you follow the method set forth in my 'Harvest Every 2 Weeks' thread, basically 4 sequential flood & drain systems, you'll get that yield every 2 weeks, in perpetuity. 



Taurich said:


> Maybe not totally relevant, but made me giggle ^^
> View attachment 2334892


Heh.


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## The New Jim Jones (Sep 15, 2012)

damn dude your a huge help, i really will look into hydro, it seems so futuristic, ill stick around until my messy soil harvest is done


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 19, 2012)

No worries, happy to help. 

However, let me warn you & everyone else- growing dope can be a real ball & chain. Once you fire up a grow op, you don't get holidays and if you slack off (like I'm doing right now), you can wreck the lot. 

Soooo... I guess I better get my ass in gear...


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## mountainboy (Sep 22, 2012)

Al, I'm sure you have mentioned it b4,but I was wondering what your thoughts are on using the lucas formula in my e&f sog set up?


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 22, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Al, I'm sure you have mentioned it b4,but I was wondering what your thoughts are on using the lucas formula in my e&f sog set up?


You're right, I have mentioned it- and I think within the last 3 pages of this thread. My advice on using Lucas is, quite simply, don't. Use the nutrient mfr's instructions.


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## mountainboy (Sep 23, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> You're right, I have mentioned it- and I think within the last 3 pages of this thread. My advice on using Lucas is, quite simply, don't. Use the nutrient mfr's instructions.


Al, sorry about that. I hate being one of those guys thats to lazy to read previous posts, I honestly havent been on in awhile and just skipped to the last page. I will go back and read what you said,and on top of that I won't use the lucas formula..thanks Al.


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2012)

No biggie. I know that these threads get stupidly long, but I do aim to keep the signal to noise ratio fairly high. 

The nut with employing non-standard mixtures of nutes is that you don't really know what NPK ratios you're winding up with- and you're chucking years of the nutrient mfr's R&D work out the window. Nute mfrs do this work to provide a product that yields predictable, reliable results. That's nothing but good for them and you. If you repeatedly get good results, you'll be coming back for more of their product. 

One thing I have encountered over and over as the years go by is that growers have a tendency to try to re-invent the wheel- and they do so without any evidence that what they're doing will yield a better result than was obtained by expensive, protracted trials by the mfr's R&D department. While less well documented, there's a number of end-user growers who have done all this before and gotten it to work well- and invariably, those growers are using products as their mfrs have intended.


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## mountainboy (Sep 23, 2012)

Again Al thank you. I searched the thread for "lucas" and found you had mentioned it several times. I do want to let you know I fallow your advise to the letter "no magic sauces or BS,just my nutes and h2o2 and a shit ton of light...lol, I only asked about the LF because it seemed simple and I could save a little on the cost of nutes. I may just switch to what you use anyway,its canna right?, I might as well I'm such a copy cat," Al want to be" anyway I might as well use your nutes too...lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 23, 2012)

LF is really very complex in practise, especially compared to 2-part nutes like Canna.

When you consider the cost inputs in a grow op, nutes are not high on the list. Electricity & media are on top, even if using pricey nutes. Yes, I do use Canna, even though it is significantly more expensive than most other brands- but you get proven reliability. If you're doing things right, the value of your yields will eclipse even electricity costs, by a very significant margin. Nute cost barely figures at the end of the day.

The greatest sin in running an op is poor availability. May be sad to say it, but your smokers will opt for poorer quality buds from someone else if they're always available. You can afford to spend up on inputs that increase the likelihood that your op will produce well predictably, particularly on something as comparatively inexpensive as nutes.


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## famine (Sep 23, 2012)

Hey Al.

I have read almost all of your posts in your long threads. I have learned a great deal from you, many thanks for sharing your knowledge.

I am in the middle of expanding and changing my grow room, to try to mimic your setup.
I will be using 3 3'x4' tables under 600W HPS in BlockBuster Reflectors.
My first table is up and running and I am attempting construction around it.
I will be putting the girls in 35 5"x5"x7" square pots using Rockwool Mini-cubes. ( 1 cm)

What flood schedule would you recommend for this media? I started at 2 floods a day but they were looking a little droopy so I backed off to 1 a day.
They are 3 weeks in and about finished stretching. Everything is looking very good except for a few stunted plants that weren't strong clones to begin with. 
Should I move back to 2 floods a day now or at any point in the future?

Also do you think it would be OK to use an oversized rez (30 G) and use it to flood 2 tables? Flooding about 30 mins apart.

Thanks Again


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## Al B. Fuct (Sep 26, 2012)

famine said:


> Hey Al.
> 
> I have read almost all of your posts in your long threads. I have learned a great deal from you, many thanks for sharing your knowledge.
> 
> ...


RW mini cubes behave very similarly to RW floc, which is to say that they saturate (too) easily, which drives all the oxygen out of the medium. As you know, this will damage if not destroy roots. By the time you see droopy plants, root damage has already happened. The plants will be significantly set back in development due to root system damage. 

It is between difficult & impossible to recover a damaged root system in flowering plants. Once the plant is in flower, the clock's ticking. That plant's going to be finished growing & will start dying off after 8-9wks of flowering. Whatever yield you get will be closely correlated to the health of the rootmass during flowering. When you harvest poorly developed plants, there's an excellent chance you will find an underdeveloped or partially rotted rootmass, depending upon when in the flowering cycle that the overwatering occurred. If the plants have consistently been overwatered since the beginning of flowering, the entire rootmass will be sparse and underdeveloped. If the overwatering occurred later in flowering, you will find a more developed rootmass, but a significant part of the rootmass will be tan/brown (ie. dead). 

Overwatering damage is one of the most common failures I see in grow ops. 

It is necessary to limit watering in RW to only the amount of water that the plant & evaporation can remove at least half of in 24hrs. This is to say that you must not water again until half of the water held in the medium has been removed by the plant or evaporation. In most cases with RW, this means limiting watering to 1x/day if not 1x/2days, or even less, particularly with very small (young) plants. 

I stopped using RW floc in my flowering plants simply because it holds way too much water for SoG flowering plants, which never get particularly large. Plants that don't get very large can't remove a lot of water from the medium. If your plants can't remove a lot of water from the medium, you can't water very often. If you can't water very often, you can't take advantage of introducing oxygen to the rootmass via that dissolved in the nute solution, either by an airstone or H2O2. 

I've been using Fytocell media for my flower plants for some years now- works so much better than RW, though it is necessary to pack about 25mm of RW floc in the pot bottoms to keep the Fytocell granules from escaping the pot drain holes. Have also trialled some Sure-To-Grow 'Hail' cubes, which perform about as well. If you can't get either of those, try perlite with a 25mm layer of RW floc tightly packed in the pot bottoms. 

I hope you're talking about using more than one 600HPS over your 3x 3x4 trays. Should be 1x 600 per 3x4 tray. 

I prefer to use 4 trays & 4 separate tanks; this give me the ability to run a different nute mix in tank/tray 3, which handles plants in weeks 5-6. For week 5 in tank 3, I use Canna PK13-14 at 1ml/L & Flores at 3ml/L. At the end of wk 5, that tank is dumped and renewed with a mix containing just Flores at 4ml/L, the same as all the other tanks. 

Using 1 res per tray also has the advantage of limiting the spread of any root diseases to only one batch (though with properly applied H2O2, you shouldn't have any root diseases) as well as limits the amount of damage that will be done by an individual pump or timer failure.


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## STACKB (Sep 26, 2012)

RESPECT mon..RESPECT.


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## ringlead3r (Sep 28, 2012)

how do you notice salt build up by reading the res tank? Also, how much ppm should a sativa dominant flowering plant take before noticing nutrient burn. suppose someone was doing nft and wanted to know what all could cause the salt build up. where would he go to find out the answer. or maybe you know =P


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## Raphael Mechoulam (Sep 29, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> No worries, happy to help.
> 
> However, *let me warn you & everyone else- growing dope can be a real ball & chain. Once you fire up a grow op, you don't get holidays and if you slack off (like I'm doing right now), you can wreck the lot. *
> 
> Soooo... I guess I better get my ass in gear...


But it is SO much better than sitting in a fucking cubicle 8 hours a day, surrounded by idiots that you'd never voluntarily spend time with. Depending on the timing, I can get away for a quick 3 day holiday without a problem so far. Even when I can't, the sleeping late, no commute, playing on the net all day and mid-day tennis with buddies makes this a sweeter gig than most. I know what you mean, though, I don't love my girls as much as I used to now that the op is dialed in and it's the same routines all the time. I still act like I feel the same, they can't seem to tell the difference (kind of reminds me of my marriages)...

P.S. By the by, switching to Canna aqua flores next run with PK 13/14. Not Cannaboost though! That shit is more expensive than AN's stuff...


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## budman111 (Oct 4, 2012)

Hey Al, what is your views on seaweed supplements in general other than the electrolyte debate?


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## Rick Ratlin (Oct 4, 2012)

Al, a while back you mentioned that I should run cool tubes right through summer. I don't have a cool airspace to bring air through the tube, so what is the max temperature of air that I can safely push through the cool tube?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 5, 2012)

ringlead3r said:


> how do you notice salt build up by reading the res tank? Also, how much ppm should a sativa dominant flowering plant take before noticing nutrient burn. suppose someone was doing nft and wanted to know what all could cause the salt build up. where would he go to find out the answer. or maybe you know =P


 ...how do you notice salt buildup? Not sure what you mean. 

Sativas are not as heavy feeders as indica dominants, but can operate in similar TDS strengths with no problem. Run them at 900-1100ppm & she'll be right. 



Raphael Mechoulam said:


> But it is SO much better than sitting in a fucking cubicle 8 hours a day, surrounded by idiots that you'd never voluntarily spend time with.


 Fair comment. 



> Depending on the timing, I can get away for a quick 3 day holiday without a problem so far. Even when I can't, the sleeping late, no commute, playing on the net all day and mid-day tennis with buddies makes this a sweeter gig than most. I know what you mean, though, I don't love my girls as much as I used to now that the op is dialed in and it's the same routines all the time. I still act like I feel the same, they can't seem to tell the difference (kind of reminds me of my marriages)...


I have all the widgets necessary to accomplish automated refilling of my tanks, but watering clones is something you can really only do by hand. With some planning, I could probably find 3 days away between planting out a batch of clones & cutting the next batch, but it sorta throws the rhythm of the system out a bit and tanks don't really need attention for a 3 day absence. 



> P.S. By the by, switching to Canna aqua flores next run with PK 13/14. Not Cannaboost though! That shit is more expensive than AN's stuff...


Agree, Cannaboost is stupidly expensive. Someday when I get rich & famous, I might fuck with it. Probably not, tho.



budman111 said:


> Hey Al, what is your views on seaweed supplements in general other than the electrolyte debate?


Seaweed supps are OK to use in soil, never in hydroponics.



Rick Ratlin said:


> Al, a while back you mentioned that I should run cool tubes right through summer. I don't have a cool airspace to bring air through the tube, so what is the max temperature of air that I can safely push through the cool tube?


The temperature of the air being drawn into the cooltubes isn't terribly critical, though they'll naturally be more effective at keeping the temp of the HPS bottles down with cooler intake temps, which extends tube life. The point of cooltubes though, is not mainly to cool the HPS bottles, it's to get the heat away from the plants. Even 45C intake air will get most of the heat from the tubes away from the plants. However, if the ductwork is single-wall aluminium, high air temps will tend to heat up the ducts, which will heat up the room air. In that case, you can wrap the duct tubes in an insulation blanket of some sort (hdwe stores should have some) to prevent transfer of heat into the room's airmass.


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## butcher73 (Oct 6, 2012)

hey Al B Sorry to just blow in here mate , but ive read your SoG and thats a common practice that i was shown and works great , just one ? is why do you use a 400 hps n not a 400 MH ? your knowledge is great as ive picked up alot of pointers


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 6, 2012)

butcher73 said:


> hey Al B Sorry to just blow in here mate , but ive read your SoG and thats a common practice that i was shown and works great , just one ?


What's a common practise you've been shown? Don't know what you're referring to. 



> is why do you use a 400 hps n not a 400 MH ?


I happened to have a 400HPS lying around when I set the op up about 13 yrs ago and found it worked fine for my mums. In fact, since I actually want a bit of stretch in my mums as I cut tall clones, a 400HPS is just fine for mums. 



> your knowledge is great as ive picked up alot of pointers


Thanks, hope things keep working well for you.


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## butcher73 (Oct 6, 2012)

Sorry i meant the sog set up , one other thing is u memtioned the frames you used are 25 mm alloy box n "not steal" why not go with steel n weld it up ? Can u PM on this site :/


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## butcher73 (Oct 6, 2012)

you seem pretty comitted to the ST4 strain  does it suit humid conditions ? and weres best to purchase it from mate ? im looking at getn back into a season as its been a fair while !!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 8, 2012)

butcher73 said:


> Sorry i meant the sog set up , one other thing is u mentioned the frames you used are 25 mm alloy box n "not steal" why not go with steel n weld it up ? Can u PM on this site :/


Steel will rust out readily in a grow room, notably with exposure to nutrient solutions, which are as corrosive (if not more) as seawater. Aluminum will last approximately forever. 



butcher73 said:


> you seem pretty comitted to the ST4 strain  does it suit humid conditions ? and weres best to purchase it from mate ? im looking at getn back into a season as its been a fair while !!


Cannabis doesn't handle high humidity very well- no leafy, herbaceous plant does. The target RH range is 40-60%. Higher than that will tend to promote powdery mildew on leaves and bud rot (botyritis).

You probably won't be able to get ST4. I popped the beans that are my mother stock in 2002. I haven't seen anyone selling ST4 beans since about 2005. There are similar indica dominant strains around from Spice of Life, though, like Blockhead. Others on here might also have suggestions for an indica dominant strain as well.


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## jojodancer10 (Oct 8, 2012)

dr.al i was wondering what do growers do to make there buds ice up as in thc.i was told about a product called ultra snow storm.what do u think about adding this into the rez?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 8, 2012)

jojodancer10 said:


> dr.al i was wondering what do growers do to make there buds ice up as in thc.i was told about a product called ultra snow storm.what do u think about adding this into the rez?


Ice up? Not sure what you mean. 

If you're talking about a profusion of resin trichomes that give a 'frosty' appearance, that comes from good genetics and healthy plants; such appearance is usually developed beginning late in wk6 and on through wk8. 

'Snow Storm Ultra,' per the sales literature, is a potassium (K) additive. I can't see the purpose of a K-only additive. Cannabis flowering activity benefits from a bump in K & P (phosphorus) in week 5, not just K alone. 

If you want to use a flowering enhancer, try Canna's PK-13-14, which contains both potassium & phosphorus. PK1314 is used at 1ml/L in week 5 (ONLY), along with your usual inorganic flowering nute at 75% usual strength (i.e. Canna Flores at 2ml/L). At the end of wk5, dump your tank & remix with the usual strength of flowering nutrient (i.e. Flores at 3ml/L).


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 8, 2012)

Hello Al, 

I've read your perpetual grow thread and it's brilliant. Thank you for posting it, i will follow your instructions with just a few tweaks.

Tweaks are, I'll be using 1000W HPS lights over each 4x4 table and will be using CO2. Now I'm familiar with the mantra "the more light the better" but
1000W over each 4x4 table of non veg'd plants does seem like it could be overkill, and that is fine with me if it means a bigger yield. 

Thanks in advance. You've helped me more than you know...


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2012)

legaleyes13 said:


> Hello Al,
> 
> I've read your perpetual grow thread and it's brilliant. Thank you for posting it, i will follow your instructions with just a few tweaks.
> 
> ...


There's no such thing as too much light but there IS a such thing as too much heat. As long as you can pump the heat out of the room (cooltubes are excellent), 1000s over 4x4s will be excellent. With 1500ppm CO2, you can run the room warmer than without (29-30C), which will speed growth & improve both weight yield and density. 

You have your work cut out for you as CO2 rooms require good sealing to be economical on gas usage, but a good seal kills two birds- you make it hard for pests to gain entry. 

Will be looking forward to pix when you're up & running.


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 9, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> There's no such thing as too much light but there IS a such thing as too much heat. As long as you can pump the heat out of the room (cooltubes are excellent), 1000s over 4x4s will be excellent. With 1500ppm CO2, you can run the room warmer than without (29-30C), which will speed growth & improve both weight yield and density.
> 
> You have your work cut out for you as CO2 rooms require good sealing to be economical on gas usage, but a good seal kills two birds- you make it hard for pests to gain entry.
> 
> Will be looking forward to pix when you're up & running.



Thanks again Al,

As you say, sealing the room will be my biggest challenge, and is something I've always had a difficult time doing. I find it difficult to tape the the panda plastic to the floor and have it stay stuck. I also have a problem constructing a proper door... As far as heat is concerned, I'm not too worried. One way or another I'll get the heat out of there, even if I have to use and ice box heat exhanger (though I really really hope I don't have to). I'm hoping a couple of vortex fans venting the lights will do the trick


And one last thing. Do you think 1.5 gallon pots are big enough, or are they so small that they will stunt the growth of the plants?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2012)

legaleyes13 said:


> Thanks again Al,
> 
> As you say, sealing the room will be my biggest challenge, and is something I've always had a difficult time doing. I find it difficult to tape the the panda plastic to the floor and have it stay stuck.


Yep, I feel your pain. Most flavours of duct tape will come unstuck in short order. The seal need not be totally airtight, just snug. However, silicone sealant makes a dandy adhesive for panda film- and it's not too hard to remove if sometime in the future you do need to remove it. 



> I also have a problem constructing a proper door...


Frame up the door in 2x3" timber with a diagonal crossmember & skin it with 1/4" MDF. 


> As far as heat is concerned, I'm not too worried. One way or another I'll get the heat out of there, even if I have to use and ice box heat exhanger (though I really really hope I don't have to). I'm hoping a couple of vortex fans venting the lights will do the trick


Cooltubes on a closed air circuit will do most of the job. This is to say the cooltubes should be fed air from outside the room airmass and dump the warmed air outside the room airmass as well. However, circ fans and radiant IR from the lamps will introduce some heat into the room airmass, which you'll have to remove with aircon or periodic dumping of the room air. Integrated CO2 controller units can manage dosing the room airmass with CO2 & control exhaust fans to minimise gas loss. However, CO2 systems as such are VERY exxy- this is the main reason I don't bother with CO2. 



> And one last thing. Do you think 1.5 gallon pots are big enough, or are they so small that they will stunt the growth of the plants?


In a SoG system, pots of about 3L capacity (175mm dia x 175mm tall) are fine. SoG flowering plants don't get any veg time and as such don't get that large. You might even be able to go smaller than 3L depending upon various factors, such as media type & watering frequency.


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## GrnMn (Oct 9, 2012)

Al, it's good to read you brother, been a long time, and you posting has brought back some memories. Would you please send me a private message?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 9, 2012)

GrnMn said:


> Al, it's good to read you brother, been a long time, and you posting has brought back some memories. Would you please send me a private message?


Thanks.

I try to avoid PMs on cannabis boards; what seems to happen is I end up engaging in extended discussions of growing techniques and problems that are better carried out in open forums so everyone can benefit from the matters discussed and I don't repeat said discussions several times- often several hundred times!


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 10, 2012)

hmm, OK, my hydro gear supplier is forcing my hand on my choice in media. They've discontinued Fytocell. I'll be using Sure-To-Grow loose fill from now on. So, for anyone who wants to see a serious test of the stuff, you're about to get your wish!


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 10, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> hmm, OK, my hydro gear supplier is forcing my hand on my choice in media. They've discontinued Fytocell. I'll be using Sure-To-Grow loose fill from now on. So, for anyone who wants to see a serious test of the stuff, you're about to get your wish!



I would love to use something other than clay pebbles, as they are somewhat impractical for anything other than a small grow, but something about fytocell and sure-to-grow loose seems disconcerting. I'm happy to hear that someone like you uses this stuff, it makes me think that it works just fine. Are the plants loose and fragile in those types of mediums? Does it effect growth or health?


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## tyler.durden (Oct 10, 2012)

Hey, Al! I copied your set up and I love it. I used H202 at your recommended levels and it's worked well for me with GH 3 part nutes. I just bought Dutchmaster gold flowering nutes and found this copy about h2o2 on their website, and I wanted your opinion on what they had to say:


HYDROGEN PEROXIDE:
 Commonly known as H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB], is intended for cleaning equipment and treating well water only. Often, it is sold on the premises as "extra oxygen" for roots. H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] is a highly reactive molecule. It is an oxidizing agent that is unstable in solution and tends to rip away electrons from other sources such as living matter (including root cells, bacteria and your skin!!) and chelating agents as well as reacting with other organic matter. This is what makes it an effective "cleaning" agent. However, for this reason it is not recommended in root zones or nutrient solutions. Adding too much H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] can kill your plants by damaging the roots, and render 'Hydroponic Nutrient Solutions' less effective by breaking down chelating agents.

It is recommended that you follow label instructions on dilution rates and treat water beforehand with H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] and allow at least 24 - 36 hours for most of it to react and become water and oxygen. Then use this "sterilized" and oxygenated water for your nutrient solution. Remember to keep the nutrient temperatures between 60 - 70 F / 16 - 22 C to keep the oxygen dissolved in the water.


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## butcher73 (Oct 10, 2012)

Al B my man ,, what is the best distance between the flood table and cieling ht ? as ill build my room to that requirement !! do you think a fan sucking fresh air in is best as well as a fan sucking out ? or just have a fan sucking out in cieling with a lower vent to let air flow come in ? cheers mate


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## butcher73 (Oct 10, 2012)

what is the hieght of your table from the ground ?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 10, 2012)

legaleyes13 said:


> I would love to use something other than clay pebbles, as they are somewhat impractical for anything other than a small grow, but something about fytocell and sure-to-grow loose seems disconcerting. I'm happy to hear that someone like you uses this stuff, it makes me think that it works just fine. Are the plants loose and fragile in those types of mediums? Does it effect growth or health?


Plants do very well in both Fytocell & STG. Plants usually stand themselves up with no problem, but sometimes in leat flower, the weight of the budmass will tend to pull the plants down. This will happen in clay pellets, too. If you have a tray full of plants, they'll tend to prop one another up. You can also use plastic dowels to stake them up. Bamboo stakes tend to rot when stuck into a wet medium but will work for a couple of crops. 

Clay pellets are a royal pain in the ass. Heavy, hard to dispose of, nearly impossible to clean sufficiently for re-use. Avoid if you can. 




tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Al! I copied your set up and I love it. I used H202 at your recommended levels and it's worked well for me with GH 3 part nutes. I just bought Dutchmaster gold flowering nutes and found this copy about h2o2 on their website, and I wanted your opinion on what they had to say:
> 
> 
> HYDROGEN PEROXIDE:
> Commonly known as H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB], is intended for cleaning equipment and treating well water only. Often, it is sold on the premises as "extra oxygen" for roots. H[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]2[/SUB] is a highly reactive molecule. It is an oxidizing agent that is unstable in solution and tends to rip away electrons from other sources such as living matter (including root cells, bacteria and your skin!!) _*blah blah blah *_


My opinion is that these guys are idiots. Ignore with extreme prejudice. If the rest of their advice is of this quality, they deserve approximately none of your business. 



butcher73 said:


> Al B my man ,, what is the best distance between the flood table and cieling ht ? as ill build my room to that requirement !! do you think a fan sucking fresh air in is best as well as a fan sucking out ? or just have a fan sucking out in cieling with a lower vent to let air flow come in ? cheers mate


My room's ceiling is about 2.1m high. Trays are about 650mm from the floor. 

Yes, you should be using both intake and exhaust fans. Your exhaust fan should be a centrifugal type, capable of shifting the entire air volume of the room in about 5 mins or less. I'm using a 250mm centrif similar to this one. My room is about 14,000 litres; that blower moves 410L/sec and will change the room air entirely in 34sec. Centrif blowers are necessary when you have long ducts, ductwork with bends or carbon filters inline, as centrifs can generate a fair amount of static pressure in the duct. Axial blowers can't do that- air will leak backward between the blades when there's any static pressure in the duct at all. However, they're OK to use as intake blowers when you are using a centrif exhaust blower. I use a pair of 150mm axials as intake blowers. The combined volumetric capacity of the axials is slightly less than the capacity of the centrif exhaust blower. This keeps the room at a slightly negative pressure; any air leaks in the room will thus leak inward. This means that scents will leave the room through the exhaust blower and the carbon filter which I have inline.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 10, 2012)

OK, just got a 'post restriction' popup page which caused me to lose the entire text in my last post. It's SHEER LUCK that I habitually copy my text to the clipboard before posting. 

WHAT IS THIS SHIT?!


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## tyler.durden (Oct 11, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> My opinion is that these guys are idiots. Ignore with extreme prejudice. If the rest of their advice is of this quality, they deserve approximately none of your business.


LOL! Glad to hear it. I've read good things about their nutes and already bought 'em so I'll see how it does this run. Yeah, this site fucks up sometimes like giving an error message and deleting your posts. I use the Lazarus add-on in Firefox, it saves pages of your text and is easier than cutting & pasting from a Word document. Thanks for the advice!


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey al 

wondering do you use canna and if so do you use the hole nute line?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 11, 2012)

tyler.durden said:


> LOL! Glad to hear it. I've read good things about their nutes and already bought 'em so I'll see how it does this run. Yeah, this site fucks up sometimes like giving an error message and deleting your posts. I use the Lazarus add-on in Firefox, it saves pages of your text and is easier than cutting & pasting from a Word document. Thanks for the advice!


I've got Lazarus but sometimes it doesn't work. When I say 'copy to the clipboard' I mean Windows clipboard, nothing to do with Word.



hellraizer30 said:


> Hey al
> 
> wondering do you use canna and if so do you use the hole nute line?


I use Canna Classic and PK1314.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 11, 2012)

Right on AL... Im looking to starting running trail runs with canna, but in my area the classic isnt a option.
only there new line is, so from what i see your not buying into the boost/zyme/or the rhizotonic?


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 11, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> Right on AL... I'm looking to starting running trail runs with canna, but in my area the classic isn't a option.
> only there new line is, so from what i see your not buying into the boost/zyme/or the rhizotonic?


Boost is far too expensive to even try. $207/L! Rhizotonic is unnecessary if you don't have any root problems- and if you regularly apply H2O2, you won't have any root problems. Besides, Rhizotonic stinks like cigarette butts fermented in a camel's asshole. Cannazyme, being an enzymatic agent, is not compatible with H2O2.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 11, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Boost is far too expensive to even try. $207/L! Rhizotonic is unnecessary if you don't have any root problems- and if you regularly apply H2O2, you won't have any root problems. Besides, Rhizotonic stinks like cigarette butts fermented in a camel's asshole. Cannazyme, being an enzymatic agent, is not compatible with H2O2.


Yep thats what i needed to hear... AL with all companys theres something you can do without 
that drops cost to almost nothing...woot! Got one more question, is there much difference between
the classic and the new base line?

the new line is the aqua line.

from what i read the classic line is favored
in inert mediums like clay/rockwool and such.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 11, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> Yep thats what i needed to hear... AL with all companys theres something you can do without
> that drops cost to almost nothing...woot! Got one more question, is there much difference between
> the classic and the new base line?
> 
> ...


The definition of hydroponics is growing plants in an inert medium with plants supplied with nutrients dissolved in water. All hydroponic media is inert, whether STG, perlite, clay pellets and so on. 

Aqua is more than likely Classic in a different wrapper. The purpose is the same.

All nutrient mfrs have a few 'magic sauces,' which serve mainly to generate profit for hydro shops. Mind you, if there's a Canna rep reading who'd like me to test Boost, I'm happy to have some free samples...


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## Gibb (Oct 11, 2012)

Hey Al, great stuff as always, happy to be talking with a forum legend.

Simple question I couldn't find answered after reading your threads and searching: will the 4 SOG tray perpetual grow method work with Lucas Hempys with 100% perlite, or will the growth be too stunted to get some real bud weight?


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 11, 2012)

Thanks again..

on the feeding charts it shows to use veg nutes from first day of 12/12 to when you see preflowers!
then switch to bloom nutes. I talked to a canna rep and he says thats how canna nutes are designed.

im doing zero veg sog and would rather not use any veg nutes to eliminate cost, but if thing are formulated
to be used as such! 

What are your thoughts


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 11, 2012)

Gibb said:


> Hey Al, great stuff as always, happy to be talking with a forum legend.


*blush* Thanks. 



> Simple question I couldn't find answered after reading your threads and searching: will the 4 SOG tray perpetual grow method work with Lucas Hempys with 100% perlite, or will the growth be too stunted to get some real bud weight?


I'm not a fan of hempy buckets. Inherent in the design is the potential for root rot due to stagnant nute soln in the bottoms of the buckets. When you peruse pix of plants in hempys, you usually see distinct signs of overwatering, aka root disease. Stick to flood/drain systems. I am neither a fan of Lucas formula use of nutes. Use the mfr's mixing instructions.



hellraizer30 said:


> Thanks again..
> 
> on the feeding charts it shows to use veg nutes from first day of 12/12 to when you see preflowers!
> then switch to bloom nutes. I talked to a canna rep and he says thats how canna nutes are designed.
> ...


Veg nutes are unnecessary in the flowering area of a SoG op.


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 11, 2012)

Thats what im thinking! But there reps say to use it in the first weeks of flower. Owell
im going to treat it like i know how, f-ck all this feeding chart crap. Thank bro


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> Thats what im thinking! But there reps say to use it in the first weeks of flower. Owell
> im going to treat it like i know how, f-ck all this feeding chart crap. Thank bro


You could do that if you want, but it's really not necessary.


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## The New Jim Jones (Oct 13, 2012)

hey just letting you know I'm lurking and reading even though I don't know what the majority of what you're talking about means


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## hellraizer30 (Oct 13, 2012)

The New Jim Jones said:


> hey just letting you know I'm lurking and reading even though I don't know what the majority of what you're talking about means



......thats creepy lol.......


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 13, 2012)

The New Jim Jones said:


> hey just letting you know I'm lurking and reading even though I don't know what the majority of what you're talking about means


Well, that's OK, I don't know what the majority of what I'm talking about means, either. When I find out, you'll be the first to know. 



hellraizer30 said:


> ......thats creepy lol.......


Nah, not creepy. Lots of lurkers read my threads who never, ever post. Fine with me.


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## Trap Bunkin (Oct 14, 2012)

had a an account over at grasscity and got banned due to preaching the use of h202. Apparantly there against it over there so looks like im only at RIU now. 

Thanks Al for preaching the good word. Guess there are some that just cant change there ways from 30 years ago.


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## wheels619 (Oct 14, 2012)

hellraizer30 said:


> ......thats creepy lol.......


im a lurker also. lmao. although i do get most of what he says. 

u gotta peruse thru the legends threads every now and again. keeps ya on your toes.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2012)

Trap Bunkin said:


> had a an account over at grasscity and got banned due to preaching the use of h202. Apparantly there against it over there so looks like im only at RIU now.
> 
> Thanks Al for preaching the good word. Guess there are some that just cant change there ways from 30 years ago.


Hmm, my acct on GC is still happening. Just posted there to be sure. I just don't have time to keep up with accts on several cannabis boards anymore. 

Banned for recommending H2O2? Sounds pretty extreme- and dumb. H2O2 is widely used in large-scale hydroponic vegetable farming. To suggest it's a poor practise is <cartman> a buncha tree-huggin' hippie crap. </cartman>



wheels619 said:


> im a lurker also. lmao. although i do get most of what he says.
> 
> u gotta peruse thru the legends threads every now and again. keeps ya on your toes.


Thanks for the compliment, but every time someone calls me a 'legend' or something similar, I blush like a ripe strawberry. 

All I do is grow dope & talk about it from time to time, folks.


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## wheels619 (Oct 14, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks for the compliment, but every time someone calls me a 'legend' or something similar, I blush like a ripe strawberry.
> 
> All I do is grow dope & talk about it from time to time, folks.


yes but its good dope and you are great at talking about it. lol.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2012)

wheels619 said:


> yes but its good dope and you are great at talking about it. lol.


Thanks. 

And now... time to actually go do some of that growing dope stuff instead of procrastinating by playing around on cannabis forums...


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## wheels619 (Oct 14, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Thanks.
> 
> And now... time to actually go do some of that growing dope stuff instead of procrastinating by playing around on cannabis forums...


yeah me too. but the forums are just to fill the time while i smoke my bong loads before doing that growing stuff.  lol. have a good day.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 14, 2012)

wheels619 said:


> yeah me too. but the forums are just to fill the time while i smoke my bong loads before doing that growing stuff.  lol. have a good day.


Ah. Now there's something I ought to comment upon... doing op work while high can result in disasters. Can't tell you how many times I've failed to do something blindingly obvious because I've choofed up before working in the op. 

I have: 

Failed to reset timers after dumping tanks resulting in wilted plants
Failed to change valves back to 'water' from 'tank dump' & poured entire tanks of fresh nutes down the drain
Left the op for a sandwich (or 3) while tanks are pumping out, allowing pumps to run dry, which trashes pump impeller shafts
An assortment of other stupid shit, which I could take a few hours describing, while I should be in the op working...


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## wheels619 (Oct 14, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Ah. Now there's something I ought to comment upon... doing op work while high can result in disasters. Can't tell you how many times I've failed to do something blindingly obvious because I've choofed up before working in the op.
> 
> I have:
> 
> ...


i forgot to turn my timers back on last night after messing with shit becuz i rushed for lights out. came out this morning and found them still sleeping. they get 4 hours less light today. too many


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 15, 2012)

wheels619 said:


> i forgot to turn my timers back on last night after messing with shit becuz i rushed for lights out. came out this morning and found them still sleeping. they get 4 hours less light today. too many


Well, a long night (or even a couple days of total darkness) in flowering is a lot less sinful than a long day or interrupted dark cycle. The former will reduce yield slightly while the latter can induce hermaphrodism and make a general fucking mess of things. Pollinated seed bracts die back & go to mould, making the buds good candidates for compost unless surgically manicured (read: pain in the ass). 

I got buried in work not long back and didn't harvest some plants fast enough. Excessive flowering time (on the order of 11-12 wks) is a pretty sure way to induce hermaphrodism.


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## wheels619 (Oct 15, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Well, a long night (or even a couple days of total darkness) in flowering is a lot less sinful than a long day or interrupted dark cycle. The former will reduce yield slightly while the latter can induce hermaphrodism and make a general fucking mess of things. Pollinated seed bracts die back & go to mould, making the buds good candidates for compost unless surgically manicured (read: pain in the ass).


it got worst. the power strip i was using died completely later in the day. lol. had a few laying around so it wasnt a big deal. but made me a little unsure as to how long they were in the dark again for.


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 16, 2012)

Hey Al, thanks again for all of your help...

A couple of posts back, you recommended that I use cooltubes to avoid heat issues. Now, while they're certainly the best reflectors for avoiding heat issues, I've only heard bad things about them as they pertain to reflecting light... will I run into any problems with them, and what type of reflectors do you use?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 16, 2012)

legaleyes13 said:


> Hey Al, thanks again for all of your help...
> 
> A couple of posts back, you recommended that I use cooltubes to avoid heat issues. Now, while they're certainly the best reflectors for avoiding heat issues, I've only heard bad things about them as they pertain to reflecting light... will I run into any problems with them, and what type of reflectors do you use?


Throw the reflectors included with cooltubes in the bin & hang the 'tubes under some Adjust-A-Wings batwing reflectors.


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## wheels619 (Oct 16, 2012)

a few companies actually make a cooltube with a full size built in reflector. kinda nice when heat issues are ur worst enemy.


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 16, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Throw the reflectors included with cooltubes in the bin & hang the 'tubes under some Adjust-A-Wings batwing reflectors.


Okay. Here's the thing Al,

I already have 4 reflectors; 3 radiant 6'' and 1 XXXL, so I don't want to have to buy 4 cooltubes. Of course there isn't much advice you could give me, other than see how my current reflectors work and then go from there. But with your expertise, do you anticipate me running into heat issues with my current hoods. I'll have an AC, dehumidifier and 2 vortex fans, one pulling hot air from each pair of reflectors...

I noticed that your op improved when you switched to cooltubes, but can't recall what kind of reflectors you had before switching. And how close to the canopy do you keep your lights? Thanks again...


----------



## Ganjapussy (Oct 16, 2012)

Hey Al... Have you ever heard of cloning a auto, is it possible and work? Why do you have clones instead of autos? What's your take on that?


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Oct 17, 2012)

wheels619 said:


> a few companies actually make a cooltube with a full size built in reflector. kinda nice when heat issues are ur worst enemy.


The reflectors supplied with cooltubes are generally poor compared to the Adjust-A-Wings double parabola 'batwing' design. This is why I married some cooltubes to some Adjusta-A-Wings Large Avengers:






legaleyes13 said:


> Okay. Here's the thing Al,
> 
> I already have 4 reflectors; 3 radiant 6'' and 1 XXXL, so I don't want to have to buy 4 cooltubes.


OK



> Of course there isn't much advice you could give me, other than see how my current reflectors work and then go from there. But with your expertise, do you anticipate me running into heat issues with my current hoods. I'll have an AC, dehumidifier and 2 vortex fans, one pulling hot air from each pair of reflectors...


Ventilated hoods of the sort you have generally have poor light spread and are not adjustable. One of the design strengths of AAWs is that simply by changing the length of the stainless cables (just move crimped ends to a different adjustment slot on the reflector) they can be focused narrowly or broadly, depending on your needs at the time. Hoods also have a lot more surface area to transfer heat into the room airmass than do cooltubes, meaning cooltubes a more efficient at shifting heat from the lights out of the room before it gets a chance to radiate off the light fixture's surfaces. 

BTW, fans should be placed such that they are pushing cool air into a cooltube or air-cooled hood instead of sucking air out. Fan motors generate a fair amount of heat on their own and rely on the air that they move to cool themselves. Putting them in the warm air stream may shorten their lifespans. 



> I noticed that your op improved when you switched to cooltubes, but can't recall what kind of reflectors you had before switching. And how close to the canopy do you keep your lights? Thanks again...


I had a set of AAWs and added the cooltubes to them. To obtain even light coverage of my trays, the bottom of the cooltubes are about 700mm above the trays. However, with cooltubes, it's possible for the plant tops to be within about 200mm of the cooltube (or even closer) without risking any heat damage to the plants.



Ganjapussy said:


> Hey Al... Have you ever heard of cloning a auto, is it possible and work? Why do you have clones instead of autos? What's your take on that?


Autoflowering plants flower in relation to the age of the plant, without regard to photoperiod. After a certain period of vegging, they'll flower, without changing the photoperiod to 12/12. This makes it impossible to maintain mother plants of autoflowering strains. Autoflowering strains mus be grown from seed for every crop. As such, it wouldn't be possible to clone them. Naturally, this means autoflowering strains cannot be used in SoG ops. 

In addition to that, I've not heard glowing reviews of the smoking qualities of autoflowering strains, though I'm sure there's got to be a decent smoking one somewhere. 

If you're growing indoors, controlling photoperiod is not a problem. There's simply no need for autoflowering strains.


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## trichome fiend (Oct 17, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> If you're growing indoors, controlling photoperiod is not a problem. There's simply no need for autoflowering strains.


....amen! I've never grown any myself and wouldn't consider them indoors... but I've thought about making a large order of regular autoflowers to harvest seeds....once I have the seeds, plant them outdoors, then pull males. I'm pretty sure I could get 3 crops annually....then again, I hear the ruderalis takes away from the potency, so don't know if it'd be worth the work...but it would definately be an option if a guy was trying to hide from the choppers!...around my area, a guy could pull a harvest before the choppers even start to run.


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 17, 2012)

_"I had a set of AAWs and added the cooltubes to them. To obtain even light coverage of my trays, the bottom of the cooltubes are about 700mm above the trays. However, with cooltubes, it's possible for the plant tops to be within about 200mm of the cooltube (or even closer) without risking any heat damage to the plants."_ - Al B Fuct


Okay thanks Al,

But just so I'm perfectly clear. You keep your lights 700mm away from the tray and not the canopy, regardless of how tall your plants get? And unfortunately for me, I don't know that I'll be able to afford cooltubes and AAWs, so I may just have to stick with what I have. 

And you're right, the hoods I currently have don't spread light as well as the large AAWs, but they are more intense to the plants directly beneath them. In all honesty, I'll have them over 4x4 trays, so I would prefer the AAWs in this scenario, as I think that great spreading of the light would be slightly more valuable than great intensity directly beneath. Take a look at this link for yourself, and tell me what you think.

ePerimeter = spread, eInside = intensity directly beneath reflector
http://www.greners.com/reflector-test.html


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## Gibb (Oct 17, 2012)

Al, are you worried about the air cooling the arc tube of that vent system? The colder bulb will cost a loss of voltage.


----------



## Ganjapussy (Oct 17, 2012)

Do you have any recommendations on which tester I should use for a ebb and flow?


----------



## ilikecheetoes (Oct 17, 2012)

hey Al. thanks for all your posts. I've been doing your method for a couple years now with a couple twists.
I use 2x4 trays because they are easier to move and clean and transport in a normal car 
I use 28 pots in each tray. I want to say they are 5inch pots but maybe 6inch. The cheap black ones you get at the grow shops.
I use perlite as my medium. I have found that it doesnt get heavy like hydroton, its cheap, it fills in well by just shaking the pot as you transplant the clones in.

One thing I have always sucked at is cloning. I've gone back and forth from your method to aero and i'm just coming off a run of just buying clones. (just beat down an infestation so its time to go back to my own stuff, dirty clones suck).

Soooo I thought I'd ask about rockwool. I generally use the sheets of 1 or maybe 2 inch cloners. like these:
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hydroempire.com/store/images/1x1x1.5cube_Lrg.gif&imgrefurl=http://nevadanaturals.com/accessories/growing-media&h=350&w=356&sz=79&tbnid=ZkcNTJh6nARudM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=95&zoom=1&usg=__8ZQ68DDdadN9G37KOM0jScE7uds=&docid=WowOuOE4ZzHTPM&sa=X&ei=70t_UOnwM8To2gWrx4DoBg&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAQ&dur=331

Have you ever used these? My aversion to using the 40mm square like you is the cost and space they take up.

I was going to try to mimic you every way I could other than that but I cant fit the slab into a salad spinner lol. So after soak I will just shake the shit out of it.
Second issue with those trays is the additional watering.
I was just putting the slab onto a net bottom tray then that tray in a normal tray (with a humidome) So I could just lift up the inner tray and set it in another tray with water.
This of course soaks the cubes which why my results are like 50% and take 3 or more weeks.

So I need to figure a better way of watering. 

And I thought you got a new job and disappeared? Welcome back !!!


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## butcher73 (Oct 19, 2012)

hey ALB what size t5 would be best to do say 20 cuttings at a time ? does 2 x 55w sound ok ? 
cheers mate


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2012)

trichome fiend said:


> ....amen! I've never grown any myself and wouldn't consider them indoors... but I've thought about making a large order of regular autoflowers to harvest seeds....once I have the seeds, plant them outdoors, then pull males. I'm pretty sure I could get 3 crops annually....then again, I hear the ruderalis takes away from the potency, so don't know if it'd be worth the work...but it would definately be an option if a guy was trying to hide from the choppers!...around my area, a guy could pull a harvest before the choppers even start to run.


 There's probably an entire subforum somewhere on RIU devoted to guerrilla growing with auto strains.



legaleyes13 said:


> But just so I'm perfectly clear. You keep your lights 700mm away from the tray and not the canopy, regardless of how tall your plants get?


 They're roughly 700mm above the trays, but my lights are hung with yo-yos, so I can adjust the clearance whenever it suits me. Usually about 200mm above the tops.



> And unfortunately for me, I don't know that I'll be able to afford cooltubes and AAWs, so I may just have to stick with what I have.


 When you consider the returns on an op the size you're considering, you can afford a fair bit more than you think you can. 


> And you're right, the hoods I currently have don't spread light as well as the large AAWs, but they are more intense to the plants directly beneath them. In all honesty, I'll have them over 4x4 trays, so I would prefer the AAWs in this scenario, as I think that great spreading of the light would be slightly more valuable than great intensity directly beneath.


 With the hoods you've got, you will need to shuffle plants around frequently to get even development on all your plants. The large AAWs permit fine adjustment of beamspread such that the plants furthest away from the lamp tube are actually getting slightly MORE light than the plants directly below the lamp. Worth doing.



Gibb said:


> Al, are you worried about the air cooling the arc tube of that vent system? The colder bulb will cost a loss of voltage.


No. The quartz arc tube itself is insulated by the glass envelope. Cooltubes don't affect the luminous output of HPS jugs.



Ganjapussy said:


> Do you have any recommendations on which tester I should use for a ebb and flow?


There's no better nutrient strength meter than the Bluelab Truncheon. Ultra-durable, easy to read. You'll only ever buy one. Eutech makes some excellent pH meters. Buy one of their waterproof models like the Tester 10. Avoid Hanna meters.



ilikecheetoes said:


> hey Al. thanks for all your posts. I've been doing your method for a couple years now with a couple twists.
> I use 2x4 trays because they are easier to move and clean and transport in a normal car
> I use 28 pots in each tray. I want to say they are 5inch pots but maybe 6inch. The cheap black ones you get at the grow shops.
> I use perlite as my medium. I have found that it doesnt get heavy like hydroton, its cheap, it fills in well by just shaking the pot as you transplant the clones in.


Works for me!



> One thing I have always sucked at is cloning. I've gone back and forth from your method to aero and i'm just coming off a run of just buying clones. (just beat down an infestation so its time to go back to my own stuff, dirty clones suck).


Cloning requires practice. Hardest thing is getting the watering right. Super-easy to overwater clones in RW cubes. 



> Soooo I thought I'd ask about rockwool. I generally use the sheets of 1 or maybe 2 inch cloners. like these:
> http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.hydroempire.com/store/images/1x1x1.5cube_Lrg.gif&imgrefurl=http://nevadanaturals.com/accessories/growing-media&h=350&w=356&sz=79&tbnid=ZkcNTJh6nARudM:&tbnh=93&tbnw=95&zoom=1&usg=__8ZQ68DDdadN9G37KOM0jScE7uds=&docid=WowOuOE4ZzHTPM&sa=X&ei=70t_UOnwM8To2gWrx4DoBg&ved=0CDQQ9QEwAQ&dur=331
> 
> Have you ever used these? My aversion to using the 40mm square like you is the cost and space they take up.


The 40mm cubes don't take up THAT much space- and they hold enough water without saturation to get through 12 hours on a heat mat. 



> I was going to try to mimic you every way I could other than that but I cant fit the slab into a salad spinner lol.


That's a bit of a problem, isn't it? 



> So after soak I will just shake the shit out of it.


You'll probably end up crushing the material and losing the airspaces. 



> Second issue with those trays is the additional watering.
> I was just putting the slab onto a net bottom tray then that tray in a normal tray (with a humidome) So I could just lift up the inner tray and set it in another tray with water.
> This of course soaks the cubes which why my results are like 50% and take 3 or more weeks.


Sounds like you're seriously overwatering. Humidomes are not necessary- and they're not helping your overwatering problems. If the stem cut is clean & sterile, the clone can get all the water it needs without having to limit transpiration with humidomes. 



> So I need to figure a better way of watering.


Use the 40mm wrapped cubes so you can tailor the watering to each individual clone. A properly damp 40mm cube weighs about 20g. Heavier is too wet. 



> And I thought you got a new job and disappeared? Welcome back !!!


I did, still doing it, but I drop in here when I can. 



butcher73 said:


> hey ALB what size t5 would be best to do say 20 cuttings at a time ? does 2 x 55w sound ok ?
> cheers mate


Wouldn't use a T5, far too big. Clones don't need much light. My clonebox has 3x 18" twin-tube fluoro fixtures- and that's even a bit of overkill, 2 twin-tube fixtures would be fine. I think the lamps are 18W each.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2012)

Just a small note about economy & value: Growing dope indoors with hydroponics will cost you some money. An op like mine would cost about $4-5000 to set up and I bet I dump about $700/mo into it, considering electricity & all consumables. It outputs about 18-20oz/mo, more or less. I do like the Grodan MM40/40 40mm cubes, which if you buy them one at a time from a particularly greedy hydro shop, can cost 50c each. Mind, if you buy a carton of 2250 of them (about $450) only cost about 20c/ea. Gotta figure that a carton of 40mm cubes costs less than what 1.5oz of buds are worth- and will last me a few years. 

Perspective, folks- perspective!


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## butcher73 (Oct 20, 2012)

thanx ALB  for in rainy humid areas what would the best filter be for the intake fan coming from outside ? would it be better to suck air into a first room then into the tent from that room ? or just suck fresh air from outside then direct into the grow room/tent via a filter to avoid mould etc ? what does a carbon filter do in the extraction of air out of the room ? is it just to filter the smell ? thank you heaps for your time to answer my questions ,,cheers


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 20, 2012)

butcher73 said:


> thanx ALB  for in rainy humid areas what would the best filter be for the intake fan coming from outside ? would it be better to suck air into a first room then into the tent from that room ? or just suck fresh air from outside then direct into the grow room/tent via a filter to avoid mould etc ? what does a carbon filter do in the extraction of air out of the room ? is it just to filter the smell ? thank you heaps for your time to answer my questions ,,cheers


Filtration will have no effect on humidity. Mould spores will get through all but HEPA quality filtration. However, a layer of old pantyhose material stretched over the air intake will help keep bugs out of your op. It's difficult to prevent light from escaping your air intake, so I'd be inclined to draw air in from an adjoining room instead of directly from outdoors, but your situation may permit it. Your judgment call. Yes, carbon filters are mainly for stopping scents escaping, but they also will help muffle sound from your exhaust blower.


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## butcher73 (Oct 21, 2012)

ALB as for lighting in a 8 x 4 room i was thinking of going 2 x 600w cooltubes ,, do you think get the cooltubes with the external reflectors ? or i noticed you mentioned something bout fixing the tube to adjustawing reflecrors ? ive read here n there that cooltubes loose alot of lumens over air cooled hoods ,, whats your opinion on that ? i think the tubes would suit hot humid area im in but ive never used them before ,, 2 x 600w would be fine for an 8 x4 room ? once again cheers for your advice ..


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 22, 2012)

butcher73 said:


> ALB as for lighting in a 8 x 4 room i was thinking of going 2 x 600w cooltubes ,, do you think get the cooltubes with the external reflectors ?


Yep.



> or i noticed you mentioned something bout fixing the tube to adjustawing reflecrors ?


Yep.



> ive read here n there that cooltubes loose alot of lumens over air cooled hoods ,, whats your opinion on that ?


Nope, they're about the same in terms of light lost through the glass. Cooltubes with AAWs will spread light more evenly over a recutangular area, though. You might opt for the medium sized AAWs in your case.



> i think the tubes would suit hot humid area im in but ive never used them before ,, 2 x 600w would be fine for an 8 x4 room ? once again cheers for your advice ..


Pretty small room. You could fit 2 900x900mm trays in there under 2x 600HPS just fine.


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## butcher73 (Oct 22, 2012)

cheers ALB  ive noticed that most of the 900 x 900 trays all are only 11cm deap ,so they would only flood to bout 90cm im guesssing ? , what size pots would suit these trays as i was gunna get them 170cm big W specials but there would be 80cm that doesnt get flooded ?

cheers mate ..


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 22, 2012)

butcher73 said:


> cheers ALB  ive noticed that most of the 900 x 900 trays all are only 11cm deap ,so they would only flood to bout 90cm im guesssing ? , what size pots would suit these trays as i was gunna get them 170cm big W specials but there would be 80cm that doesnt get flooded ?
> 
> cheers mate ..


90cm is 900mm, nearly 1m! That's a pretty deep flood you're wanting there, mate. 

It's really only necessary to flood to about 25-50mm (2.5-5cm) deep. Your media will wick nute soln up to the roots of small plants with no problem.

170*mm* (not *cm*!)dia pots are fine. I use 175mm dia pots. Try Garden City Plastics for cheaper pots than at Big W. Should be about 45c/ea for 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots in stacks of 70. I haven't bought any from them for a few years, price may have changed.


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## butcher73 (Oct 22, 2012)

haha ,, woops i meant 90mm / 175mm ,, cheers


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## WWShadow (Oct 22, 2012)

Nice to see you back on here Al! your threads have been the source of information for me learning learning from ground zero. the weed Baron , you should sell to a stand up comedian! that shit made me laugh so hard! i'm looking forward to November This election will/should make Arkansas the first southern state for legal MMJ. I've been waitng for a couple of years for this. the whole reason for not moving to a legal state was to help get it passed here. this is the last chance, Either it passes or I move. I'm lucky that I have family in two legal states and several friends in 2 others. If I have to move I can take my pic. I'd rather spend that money setting up up a killer grow system than moving.
Anyway, pardon the ramble. You rock and your sog system is so simple even I can't fuck it up! well, not much anyway lol.


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## JimmyRecard (Oct 23, 2012)

Good to see you around Al B, Sorry for sending the friend request, didn't read the About me. 
Was going to ask ya, why don't you ever make an appearance in the Aussie Growers thread? 
Anyway keep up the good work and contributions you always make.


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 23, 2012)

Hey Al, I'm on the final stage of prep for my op and have another question for ya...

Okay, so I'm going with 4x4 trays and I'm going to buy 7in square pot for the trays. 36 7in pots can fit in the 4x4 with room for 8 more 6in pots (all of this depends on if the dimensions the manufacturer states are spot on). So I guess I'm asking if there's such a thing as too many plants for the space. I'd imagine that there isn't because of the lollipop effect, but I don't want to assume. 

What do you think?


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## Swiezy (Oct 26, 2012)

Al, How big is your clonning tray if you cut so long clones and let them root in 40mm cubes? Is the 60x40cm cloning tray enough to hold 35-40 clones?



> *Clones*
> 
> Humidity: 50-60%
> Temperature: 26-28C
> ...


Is it still actual?

Thanks in advance


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## JGF (Oct 26, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> Al, How big is your clonning tray if you cut so long clones and let them root in 40mm cubes? Is the 60x40cm cloning tray enough to hold 35-40 clones?
> 
> Thanks in advance


http://forum.grasscity.com/grow-journals/156518-batch-clones-rockwool.html

This is his clone setup.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 26, 2012)

WWShadow said:


> Nice to see you back on here Al! your threads have been the source of information for me learning learning from ground zero.


 Thanks. I drop in when I can. 



> the weed Baron , you should sell to a stand up comedian! that shit made me laugh so hard!


 I'll pass your regards on to Stoney. 



> i'm looking forward to November This election will/should make Arkansas the first southern state for legal MMJ. I've been waitng for a couple of years for this. the whole reason for not moving to a legal state was to help get it passed here. this is the last chance, Either it passes or I move. I'm lucky that I have family in two legal states and several friends in 2 others. If I have to move I can take my pic. I'd rather spend that money setting up up a killer grow system than moving.


 Hope it works out for you. However, until the federal laws on cannabis are reformed, state laws permitting MMJ use are not a safe haven. The DEA will bust you & laugh at your state laws. Consequently, even if state laws permitting MMJ are enacted, were I you, I would not sign up to any MMJ producers' or users' registries nor obtain a permit card, etc. 



> Anyway, pardon the ramble. You rock and your sog system is so simple even I can't fuck it up! well, not much anyway lol.


 Thanks, I'm sure you'll do fine. 



JimmyRecard said:


> Good to see you around Al B, Sorry for sending the friend request, didn't read the About me.


 S'ok. 



> Was going to ask ya, why don't you ever make an appearance in the Aussie Growers thread?


 I don't have time to keep up with multiple threads. All I can manage is this one. 



> Anyway keep up the good work and contributions you always make.


 Thanks. 



legaleyes13 said:


> Hey Al, I'm on the final stage of prep for my op and have another question for ya...
> 
> Okay, so I'm going with 4x4 trays and I'm going to buy 7in square pot for the trays. 36 7in pots can fit in the 4x4 with room for 8 more 6in pots (all of this depends on if the dimensions the manufacturer states are spot on). So I guess I'm asking if there's such a thing as too many plants for the space. I'd imagine that there isn't because of the lollipop effect, but I don't want to assume.
> 
> What do you think?


 It's possible in SoG to do as much as 4 plants per sq ft, but I don't like to pack them in that tightly in my own op. I hold it down to about 2.5/sq ft. 



Swiezy said:


> Al, How big is your cloning tray if you cut so long clones and let them root in 40mm cubes? Is the 60x40cm cloning tray enough to hold 35-40 clones?


My clone box has 2 trays suiting 30x 40mm cubes each. I rarely have 60 in the clonebox at the same time.



Swiezy said:


> Is it still actual?


Yep, figures are still the same.



JGF said:


> http://forum.grasscity.com/grow-journals/156518-batch-clones-rockwool.html
> 
> This is his clone setup.


Same info is in the 'Batch of Clones in Rockwool' link in my signature on this board.


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## JGF (Oct 26, 2012)

Hey Al, I really admire all the time and effort you've put into this thread, and your initial thread that I started following when I joined RIU, "Get A Harvest Every 2 Weeks". A virtual plethora of information, and your patience and time spend explaining things to virtually every poster has been an overwhelming source of information. Basically, thank you SO much!

I know you're rocking cool tubes w/ custom fitted Adjust-A-Wings and you highly recommend them, but for initial setup and cost minimization, if you had to pick one or the other to start with, would you do 6" cool tubes with generic XL reflectors (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000w-1000-watt-Digital-HPS-MH-Grow-Light-System-Set-/160634128853?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item25668a49d5 w/ the 6" Cool Tube w/ XL reflector option) or go with Adjust-A-Wings (http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/hoods-reflectors/wing-reflector/adjust-a-wing-large-reflector.html) and find a magnetic ballast and then add cool tubes when budget allowed. My only concern with doing Adjust-A-Wings first is the inability to cool the room effectively, whereas Cool Tubes allow most of the heat to be directed out of the room. My environment is a hot one so being able to keep the heat down is a priority, however since it's coming into cooler months now, it might not be an issue for winter and I could just adjust my setup before heat becomes an issue again. Your experience and advice is of course welcomed and valued, so I figured if anyone could help me, it would be you!

Also, when you setup your mother room you're running a 400wHPS 24/7 in a 2'x4' area correct? How exactly do you have it partitioned and ventilated other than having an oscillating fan? I didn't see any pics of your 400w and I wasn't sure if it was a cool tube as well run in conjunction with your other lights or how you maintained temp in there. I remember seeing a pic of an axial fan, but if you could explain that setup to me I would appreciate it.


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 26, 2012)

Al, thank you, thank you, thank you for all of your help. I'm sure I'm becoming somewhat of a pest with all of my questions...

but, I'm trying to copy your setup as exact as I can (with some tweaks for my space I guess). So I did some math. Your tables are 2'7^ (820mm) with 23 6.9'' (175mm) pots in each tray. 2'7x2'7 = 7.29, and 23/7.29 = 3.15, meaning you have 3.15 plants per sq. ft. All of this information is based on a post you made in the original thread on pg. 52, and with all of this said, I'm going to be shooting for the 3.15 plant a sqft. that you have. However, you just said that you try to hold your plant count down to 2.5 sq ft. So, I'm not sure if I missed some adjustment you made to your setup (table size or plant number) as I was not able to read the entire thread.

Moreover, I really can't get around the hydroton/fytocell problem. I don't want to have to go to the hydro store or order off the internet as often as this setup would require me to, and I don't want to have to deal with disposing of this stuff either (not much of a problem with the fytocell). So I think I'm gonna construct or buy 4 4x4 aeroponic setups. How do you feel about aero? I've run a DIY aeroponic system myself before, but never doing SOG...


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 27, 2012)

JGF said:


> Hey Al, I really admire all the time and effort you've put into this thread, and your initial thread that I started following when I joined RIU, "Get A Harvest Every 2 Weeks". A virtual plethora of information, and your patience and time spend explaining things to virtually every poster has been an overwhelming source of information. Basically, thank you SO much!


Happy to help! 



> I know you're rocking cool tubes w/ custom fitted Adjust-A-Wings and you highly recommend them, but for initial setup and cost minimization, if you had to pick one or the other to start with, would you do 6" cool tubes with generic XL reflectors (http://www.ebay.com/itm/1000w-1000-watt-Digital-HPS-MH-Grow-Light-System-Set-/160634128853?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&var=&hash=item25668a49d5 w/ the 6" Cool Tube w/ XL reflector option) or go with Adjust-A-Wings (http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/hoods-reflectors/wing-reflector/adjust-a-wing-large-reflector.html) and find a magnetic ballast and then add cool tubes when budget allowed. My only concern with doing Adjust-A-Wings first is the inability to cool the room effectively, whereas Cool Tubes allow most of the heat to be directed out of the room. My environment is a hot one so being able to keep the heat down is a priority, however since it's coming into cooler months now, it might not be an issue for winter and I could just adjust my setup before heat becomes an issue again. Your experience and advice is of course welcomed and valued, so I figured if anyone could help me, it would be you!


Because winter's coming up for you, I would initially use the AAWs, without cooltubes and with a magnetic ballast located outside the room airmass. Add the cooltubes as soon as you are financially able, but before May if you can. Doing cooltubes right entails sourcing & dumping the air for them from outside the room airmass, as you will know, so plan your construction around your ductwork routing. 



> Also, when you setup your mother room you're running a 400wHPS 24/7 in a 2'x4' area correct? How exactly do you have it partitioned and ventilated other than having an oscillating fan? I didn't see any pics of your 400w and I wasn't sure if it was a cool tube as well run in conjunction with your other lights or how you maintained temp in there. I remember seeing a pic of an axial fan, but if you could explain that setup to me I would appreciate it.


The op is laid out something like this:


Only the fans on the 900x900mm flowering trays oscillate. There's no room for the oscillating fan in the mother plant area for the fan to oscillate, so it doesn't. 

Only the 1000s are in cooltubes, in a series duct. 

The 400HPS in the mother area is about 1100mm above the trays and is not in a cooltube. The axial exhaust blower for the mother area is almost directly above the 400. 

The ventilation systems for each area are controlled with independent thermostats. 

My op is effectively a room within a room; I've roughed in some wall frames out of 2x4 timber and put some ceiling joists across them. That's all wrapped on the interior with panda film. The outside is coated in thin 1/4" MDF. The flowering & mother areas are separated with a double layer curtain of panda film; simply panda film looped over appropriate length 2x4's screwed to the supporting joists.


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 27, 2012)

legaleyes13 said:


> Al, thank you, thank you, thank you for all of your help. I'm sure I'm becoming somewhat of a pest with all of my questions...


No worries- you're OK. I'll respond when I have time to do so. If I don't reply immediately, presume I'm working in my own op!



> but, I'm trying to copy your setup as exact as I can (with some tweaks for my space I guess). So I did some math. Your tables are 2'7^ (820mm) with 23 6.9'' (175mm) pots in each tray. 2'7x2'7 = 7.29, and 23/7.29 = 3.15, meaning you have 3.15 plants per sq. ft. All of this information is based on a post you made in the original thread on pg. 52, and with all of this said, I'm going to be shooting for the 3.15 plant a sqft. that you have. However, you just said that you try to hold your plant count down to 2.5 sq ft. So, I'm not sure if I missed some adjustment you made to your setup (table size or plant number) as I was not able to read the entire thread.


My trays are actually 900mm x 900mm (2.95 feet ^2 = 8.75 sq ft) & have 24 plants in each = ~2.7 plants sq ft. 



> Moreover, I really can't get around the hydroton/fytocell problem. I don't want to have to go to the hydro store or order off the internet as often as this setup would require me to, and I don't want to have to deal with disposing of this stuff either (not much of a problem with the fytocell). So I think I'm gonna construct or buy 4 4x4 aeroponic setups. How do you feel about aero? I've run a DIY aeroponic system myself before, but never doing SOG...


Aero is fine but you will find that it's difficult or impossible to move plants around to even up development by putting stragglers in more preferential lighting positions.


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## Swiezy (Oct 28, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> My clone box has 2 trays suiting 30x 40mm cubes each. I rarely have 60 in the clonebox at the same time.


Are these clones tightly packed? I'm trying to figure out what's your clonebox and/or trays size. I will need space for ~40 clones on 60x40cm tray and need your advice, is it doable?

Also can't find how much you flood mother and flo table. I found contradictory information about it. Read somwhere that you flood flo tray to 150mm, but another post said 25-50mm. Found nothing about mother tray. Could you enlighten me?

Cheers


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 28, 2012)

Swiezy said:


> Are these clones tightly packed? I'm trying to figure out what's your clonebox and/or trays size. I will need space for ~40 clones on 60x40cm tray and need your advice, is it doable?


The cubes can be packed right up against one another. In fact, that will improve heat retention in the cubes from your heat mat. That's how I place them in my clonebox. You'll be able to fit 150 40x40mm cubes in 600mm x 400mm. 



> Also can't find how much you flood mother and flo table. I found contradictory information about it. Read somwhere that you flood flo tray to 150mm, but another post said 25-50mm. Found nothing about mother tray. Could you enlighten me?


Only if you're using clay pellets do you need to flood up to the overflow. With absorptive media, only 25-50mm is necessary. Wicking action will do the rest.


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## pen47Tex (Oct 28, 2012)

Al,
I just wanted to take a moment to say "THANK YOU"!!
I have been reading your threads and have learned so much. You have saved my first grow several times. I'm going to pattern my grow after yours. I am changing a lot around. You have explained in detail every little potential problem with solutions and preventative measures to take. 
Thank you.
Pen


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## Al B. Fuct (Oct 28, 2012)

pen47Tex said:


> Al,
> I just wanted to take a moment to say "THANK YOU"!!
> I have been reading your threads and have learned so much. You have saved my first grow several times. I'm going to pattern my grow after yours. I am changing a lot around. You have explained in detail every little potential problem with solutions and preventative measures to take.
> Thank you.
> Pen


 *blush*

Thanks for the thanks. Hope it goes swimmingly for you!


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## Adrive (Oct 29, 2012)

I am starting from seed.

Have seedlings in 1.5" rockwool cubes under T5 6 bulb at about 3" from the canopy 

Im running ph water 5.5-5.8 on the seedling for 2 weeks flushing from the top of the rockwool cube to rid salt crust on the block and test run off every 3-4 days with 20ml of ph 5.5 water... Do you get salt crust on the top of your clone cubes? and Do you flush the cubes from the top to get EC reading of the clones run off? 

You advise with clay pellets to flood a 1/2" below where the cube is set. With the wicking power of loose rockwool absorbent I get that you only have to flood about 1 to 3" but how deep do I put the seedling cube or clone cube? how deep do you place the cubes in Loose Roc/ STG? i

Should I put my 2 week seedlings in 8.5"x 8" pot that I have reserved for my mothers or work my way up to the 8.5" pot? I have a 400w hps for the mothers. If I remember correctly you flood for five minute intervals once a day for your mothers right....and five min intervals twice a day with the STG

Historic hurricane happening outside right now, what a goodtime for my first post ever on the worldwide web

Al B you took a already 6 year crazed lunatic and turned me into a monster, THANK YOU


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 30, 2012)

Al, I can't stop saying Thank You. You deserve a medal or something...

But if I'm gonna need about 49 clones every 2 weeks, how many mothers do you suggest I keep, and under what amount of wattage? 

And by the way, I have 8 125W LEDs laying around (big waste of money, if you ever intend to flower with these things), so I could use those for the mothers, but if you think HID is the way to go, I'll take your advice.


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## Shwagbag (Oct 30, 2012)

legaleyes13 said:


> Al, I can't stop saying Thank You. You deserve a medal or something...
> 
> But if I'm gonna need about 49 clones every 2 weeks, how many mothers do you suggest I keep, and under what amount of wattage?
> 
> And by the way, I have 8 125W LEDs laying around (big waste of money, if you ever intend to flower with these things), so I could use those for the mothers, but if you think HID is the way to go, I'll take your advice.


Sorry to intrude on this response but I thought I may have something to add. I too bought some 180w LED's from SPectra (wattage reduced to 140 or so), which do indeed not work for flowering, but it turns out they make very good vegging lights. Whether or not they would be adequate to keep your perpetual going, I won't say, but they work much better for vegging that they do for flowering! They seem to provide superior vegetative vigor compared to T5 as well. Good luck!


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## legaleyes13 (Oct 30, 2012)

Shwagbag said:


> Sorry to intrude on this response but I thought I may have something to add. I too bought some 180w LED's from SPectra (wattage reduced to 140 or so), which do indeed not work for flowering, but it turns out they make very good vegging lights. Whether or not they would be adequate to keep your perpetual going, I won't say, but they work much better for vegging that they do for flowering! They seem to provide superior vegetative vigor compared to T5 as well. Good luck!



Thank you very much my man. I don't recall having much of a problem with them during veg, but I admit that it was so long ago that I didn't quite remember.

And you have the best avatar on the board...


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 3, 2012)

Adrive said:


> I am starting from seed.
> 
> Have seedlings in 1.5" rockwool cubes under T5 6 bulb at about 3" from the canopy


OK.



> Im running ph water 5.5-5.8 on the seedling for 2 weeks


Seedlings should be getting plain tap water (ph ~7), no need for pH correction, until they develop their 1st set of 'true' leaves, when they can take a weak veg nute soln, around 500ppm (EC 0.7) at 5.8. Hold them at 500ppm until they have their 3rd set of true leaves and several roots out of the bottom of the cube, at which time you can put them in pots of media and introduce them to your 400HPS at a distance of about 1m. If all looks well, raise the nute strength to 1000ppm, lower the lamp to about 750mm & you're off to the races. 



> flushing from the top of the rockwool cube to rid salt crust on the block and test run off every 3-4 days with 20ml of ph 5.5 water...


5.5 is too low & will lock out certain nutrients. Top watering 40mm RW cubes will result in saturation and root damage from overwatering. Better to dip a corner of the cube in your nute soln until the cube weighs about 20g. 



> Do you get salt crust on the top of your clone cubes? and Do you flush the cubes from the top to get EC reading of the clones run off?


No, because I don't give clones any nutes, just plain water, hence no nutrient salt crust. My clones don't get nutes until they have a decent spray of roots and go into the flowering area, whne they get 1000ppm off the bat. 



> You advise with clay pellets to flood a 1/2" below where the cube is set. With the wicking power of loose rockwool absorbent I get that you only have to flood about 1 to 3" but how deep do I put the seedling cube or clone cube? how deep do you place the cubes in Loose Roc/ STG? i


You can place cubes in absorbent media like STG with the top of the cube level with the top of the medium. Flood to 25-50mm, wicking will do the rest. 



> Should I put my 2 week seedlings in 8.5"x 8" pot that I have reserved for my mothers or work my way up to the 8.5" pot? I have a 400w hps for the mothers. If I remember correctly you flood for five minute intervals once a day for your mothers right....and five min intervals twice a day with the STG


Once your seedlings have got 3 sets of true leaves and a decent spray of roots out of the cubes, they can go directly into pots of media and be places under your 400HPS, as noted above. 



> Historic hurricane happening outside right now, what a good time for my first post ever on the worldwide web


Jeez, hope you & yours are OK. Horrific images coming out of NJ & NYC. Hope you have mains power...



> Al B you took a already 6 year crazed lunatic and turned me into a monster, THANK YOU


I'm hoping that's a good thing. I have my worries about crazed lunatic monsters, you know. 



legaleyes13 said:


> Al, I can't stop saying Thank You. You deserve a medal or something...


'Thanks' will do, no medals required- unless they're the chocolate medals, the sort in gold foil wrappers. I do like those. 



> But if I'm gonna need about 49 clones every 2 weeks, how many mothers do you suggest I keep, and under what amount of wattage?


You should be able to get that qty of clones with about 10-12 well-developed mums under a 400 HPS. You'll be actively taking clones off about 8 of those, reserving space for 4-6 mums which are being grown up to replace the mums which are getting a bit long in the tooth. Replace your mums with clones taken from the older mums about every 2-3 mos. 


> And by the way, I have 8 125W LEDs laying around (big waste of money, if you ever intend to flower with these things), so I could use those for the mothers, but if you think HID is the way to go, I'll take your advice.


You can have a try with the LEDs for vegging, but I'm not hopeful due to their low light intensity. I use a 400HPS over my mums because the high intensity produces rapid growth and thick stems, which contribute to far better performing clones.


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## NewguyNL (Nov 4, 2012)

Are your mothers in a ~1 gallon pots?


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## ringlead3r (Nov 4, 2012)

Al have you experimented with pot size and if so what sizes have you tried and what gives the the overall best yield per sq ft. I also made a clone box similar to yours however my clones are wilting pretty good just wondering what I'm missing. Thanks a Bunch!


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## ringlead3r (Nov 4, 2012)

to add
i have the heating mat 
inside the box isn't wrapped in plastic
no exhaust fan 
2 t5 4100k lights
rapid rooter grow cubes
im wetting the cube and i do spray the leaves but not drench


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 4, 2012)

NewguyNL said:


> Are your mothers in a ~1 gallon pots?


No, they're in 175mm x 175mm dia standard pots, which are about 3L. 1 US gallon is 3.78L. Make friends with the metric system!



ringlead3r said:


> Al have you experimented with pot size and if so what sizes have you tried and what gives the the overall best yield per sq ft.


I've always used the 175mm dia x 175mm tall pots. So it happens, 24 fit tightly in a 900mm x 900mm flood tray, which prevents pots from tipping over. Would fit 25 but the overflow & fill fittings in the middle of the tray prevent putting a pot there. 

It also happens that a properly SoG pruned plant occupies about a 175mm circle, so going with smaller pots would increase plant density to the point where airflow around the plants would be unacceptably impeded by fan leaves- which you don't want to remove! 



> I also made a clone box similar to yours however my clones are wilting pretty good just wondering what I'm missing. Thanks a Bunch!


My clonebox has a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan which holds he clonebox at about 27-28C. There's a heat mat, also thermostatically controlled to run at 30C. If your box is running warmer than that, it would produce wilty plants. Also, 40mm rockwool cubes are very easy to overwater. A properly damp wrapped 40mm cube weighs about 20g. Heavier than that is too wet. Saturated, overwet cubes will rot stem tips. Rotted stem tips will not allow water to flow up the stem, consequently producing wilted clones. 



ringlead3r said:


> to add
> i have the heating mat
> inside the box isn't wrapped in plastic
> no exhaust fan
> ...


The inside of my clonebox is lined with white coroplast, recycled from some old real estate signs. It's there for cleanability and light reflection. 

Your clonebox will need a thermostatically controlled exhaust fan to hold the air temp down to about 28C max. Fluoro ballasts make a fair amount of heat. 

T5 lamps are about 4 feet long- your box can't be similar in size to mine. 



I'm using 3x 18", twin tube fluoro fixtures. T5s are not necessary for clones- they simply don't need a lot of light. 

I don't use Rapid Rooters because they're made of compressed peat- an organic material which can support mould growth. They also fragment when exposed to H2O2, also because they're made of organic matter. 

There is no need to spray clones. They should be getting sufficient water uptake from the stem cut, provided the tip has not rotted from overwet/saturated conditions. 

You need a peak-memory thermometer in the clonebox so you know with some certainty what the temp range happens to be in the box.


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## ringlead3r (Nov 5, 2012)

Thanks I will be changing my clone box around however my t5s are only 2 ft long and i will be getting rid of the Rapid Rooters on the next batch.

Pot size. I'm more concerned about the roots, I'm wondering if you ran lets say 3 less plants, but larger pots if the roots could grow more and produce more weight on end result. I was hoping you already tried this or could tell me that the roots Couldn't even use more than 3L of growing medium for this set up is what I was asking I guess.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 5, 2012)

ringlead3r said:


> Thanks I will be changing my clone box around however my t5s are only 2 ft long and i will be getting rid of the Rapid Rooters on the next batch.


Hmm, OK on the 2' T5s, but there's still no need for high light intensity for clones. 



> Pot size. I'm more concerned about the roots, I'm wondering if you ran lets say 3 less plants, but larger pots if the roots could grow more and produce more weight on end result. I was hoping you already tried this or could tell me that the roots Couldn't even use more than 3L of growing medium for this set up is what I was asking I guess.


SoG plant size is deliberately limited by flowering immediately after clones set root. Even with more rootzone volume, they won't get bigger. My flowering plants don't come close to filling the 3L of medium volume they have available. I could use slightly smaller pots and grow more plants, but I'm already at the greatest density of foliar mass I'm comfortable with in terms of keeping adequate air circ around the plants to prevent mould & powdery mildew.


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## legaleyes13 (Nov 5, 2012)

Al, on average, how much do you yield per plant? I know you've answered this question before, on the 1st page even. But I know somewhere else in the thread after adding cool tubes and making other adjustments that your yield improved but I can't find what page it was. I'm asking because I'm in the process of building my aero system and I'm about to drill holes for the net pots and your answer will dictate how many sites I make... And, if I recall I think you said at best you do about a oz per plant, but is that ordinary or a freak occurrence? I've been researching other clone to flower ops and you are up there with the best yielders. 

Thanks man.


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## trichome fiend (Nov 6, 2012)

...Al brother, I just want to say, your one hell of a dude to spend your time here, and to keep repeating the same answers over, and over, and over....I hope your perseverance to spread info leads you to a wonderful place, somewhere, someday.....(from the heart!)


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## Adrive (Nov 6, 2012)

I just transplanted two seedlings into a pot of loose rockwool, water repellent. It seems it's drying out too quickly.

Al B: Do you recommend using a 50/50 mixture of repellent/absorbent?


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 7, 2012)

legaleyes13 said:


> Al, on average, how much do you yield per plant?


On average, about .75oz per plant. 



trichome fiend said:


> ...Al brother, I just want to say, your one hell of a dude to spend your time here, and to keep repeating the same answers over, and over, and over....I hope your perseverance to spread info leads you to a wonderful place, somewhere, someday.....(from the heart!)


Thanks for that, but I'm already in a wonderful place. US Republicans call it 'Australia,' and about this, we are most amused. 



Adrive said:


> I just transplanted two seedlings into a pot of loose rockwool, water repellent. It seems it's drying out too quickly.
> 
> Al B: Do you recommend using a 50/50 mixture of repellent/absorbent?


You should not use water-repellent rockwool at all. The stuff makes pretty good insulation but not so hot for use as a hydroponic medium.


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## JCKHMR (Nov 10, 2012)

Hello Al,
A couple days ago I stumbled onto your "...every 2 week" thread from '07 and kept reading till my eyes bled! Great stuff - straight forward, gotta be some of the best no-nonsense info I've ever seen out there! Got me thinking about a major redesign of 'the set-up.' You signed off the site back then 'cause you were moving on to other pursuits, but after bouncing around the site a bit - to my surprise... *The Phoenix *has arisen! Just wanted to drop a note of thanks and to add my name to the legions of devoted "Fuct-ers" on this site. Keep doing what you do...


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 10, 2012)

JCKHMR said:


> Hello Al,
> A couple days ago I stumbled onto your "...every 2 week" thread from '07 and kept reading till my eyes bled! Great stuff - straight forward, gotta be some of the best no-nonsense info I've ever seen out there! Got me thinking about a major redesign of 'the set-up.' You signed off the site back then 'cause you were moving on to other pursuits, but after bouncing around the site a bit - to my surprise... *The Phoenix *has arisen! Just wanted to drop a note of thanks and to add my name to the legions of devoted "Fuct-ers" on this site. Keep doing what you do...


Thanks. 

The biggest pitfall for would-be w33d b4R0ns is the failure to use evidence-based techniques. All too common is the ineffective and inefficient scattergun approach where lots of expensive and unproven 'magic sauce' additives are thrown at a crop, often causing problems and always costing more than is necessary to do a good grow.

There's one constant; you cannot convince w33d b4R0ns to do things correctly or to believe actual evidence, even if you shove it right up their noses with a hydraulic ram. 

Case in point; there's a clown posting in this hydroponics subforum who is growing in soil (so, you already can tell this cat's an expert...) and is not only spraying H2O2 on his leaves (um, why?) but is using 3% pharmacy grade, which is wholly useless in hydroponics, even if correctly used as a nutrient solution steriliser, because low-strength H2O2 contains sodium stannate to keep it from breaking down into 2H2O + O in storage. Sodium stannate is toxic to plants and to humans in sufficient quantity. Brimming over with wrongability, but this cat tells me that I'm *just all wrong* about this sodium stannate toxicity stuff, because he's found it used as an ingredient in tooth whitening goo (in use as a stabiliser for H2O2 in the stuff), yet ignores the warning of toxicity on the MSDS issued by a manufacturer of sodium stannate. Face, meet palm.

There's few adages that you can uniformly apply to growing dope, but KISS is one of them. You must start with good grow room design, basing it largely on how you will fit in adequate ventilation and cooltube air supply & exhaust with the structure that will house your op. Work with with the bare minimums- good quality nutes, HPS lights, control temp & humidity to the acceptable range (24-26C, 30-50%RH), assure adequate ventilation, be vigilant for common pests like fungus gnats, whitefly & spider mites and sterilise nute solutions *regularly *every 3-4 days with 1ml/L of 50% grade H2O2. If you do those things, I'll put your odds of success at >98%. Avoiding 'organic' nutrients and expensive, unproven nonsense 'magic sauces' will make your life much easier and help your op produce reliably for years to come. 

I do have to confess that I stopped posting voluminously on cannabis boards for more cause than just taking a gig doing some website work. I simply cannot keep up with the Legion of Stupid. I don't have the time nor inclination to chase every wrongheaded dumbass around on this board, let alone all of them. My objective is to help readers grow good dope for a reasonable investment. If I'm asked about something, I'll happily answer with the best information I can present. However, I'm not keen to debate basic science or botany with some dimwitted w33d b4R0n who's already convinced he's right and my 25+ years of cranking out poundage reliably is just rubbish. Fuck those idiots. The penalty for ignoring me is a problematic grow op that produces nothing or damned close to it after a huge financial and time investment. 

To you growers with some commonsense- keep at it and I'll try to be here to help as much as I can.


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## stormp (Nov 10, 2012)

Hey Al

Sometime soon after i took my medication today i decided that i should become a w33d b4R0n.
So naturaly i read every thread in the organics forum and now i can safely say that i know everything there is to know about growing.

Well, all kidding aside ... i havent started growing anything but i have found great comfort in reading your threads after having started out reading a lot of bullshit written by people that should know better.

I have experience from reef keeping so stuff like ph and microsiemens isnt scary to me. What was scary was reading about all these rituals and endless additives that was absolutely needed to prevent Bad Things from happening.

So thanks for putting a repeatable, sane method out here. It really makes a difference for us noobs


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 10, 2012)

stormp said:


> Hey Al
> 
> Sometime soon after i took my medication today i decided that i should become a w33d b4R0n.
> So naturaly i read every thread in the organics forum and now i can safely say that i know everything there is to know about growing.
> ...


Happy to help.

I just wrote a relatively long reply on another thread which has some bearing on what we're takling about here, so I'm going to repost it here in entirety.

BUdbuddysmile is asking our unmethodical, anti-scientific H2O2 leaf-sprayer what the deal was- and I reply to him:





BUdbuddysmile said:


> So, how was it helpful? You said faster germination and healthier sprouts. How? Im not being a jerk, I just don't see any reason in using it in a foliar. so lmao all you want. I am all about trying new things and experimenting but this just didn't sound right to me. You just havnt explained why very well.





Al B. Fuct said:


> There is no benefit to use of H2O2 in a foliar spray. Zero.
> 
> Strangely enough, if someone _really_ knows what they're talking about, they'll be able to describe extraordinarily complex phenomenae in a few simple sentences.
> 
> ...


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## ectweak (Nov 10, 2012)

I have been reading through countless "Manuals" and all of your threads (trying to sift through the nonsense almost made me want to quit) But I have finally gotten to the point that I am going to begin my first Grow.

Being someone who like to have control of everything, I have decided to start with Hydroponics, as well as it becoming Winter in my hemisphere, and it is the only way to grow at this time.

A couple questions I had was, would I be able to start smaller, and work my way up to your setup.

e.g. I was planning on purchasing a 2'x2' table, a 60 litre reservoir, and a 400w HPS for growing. Would this setup still benefit somewhat from the SoG growing style (14 rooted clones placed in 12/12 and trimmed) or would it not work as well.

I was also told by one of the hydro shops I was planning on buying from that it wouldn't be as efficient to rotate 4 trays, as you have to clean everything out. I didn't see as much of a problem with this, as I could dedicate the rotation to be on say, Sunday, and I could clean just after their morning flood and drain, and the plants would have enough nutrients in the material (rockwool mini-blocks) to cover the time it took to clean everything.

also, one thing I never noticed mentioned has been the cleaning. Should I pull out the plants to be harvested, and move my way backward through the trays, cleaning them, and then put the plants up to dry (or even build one of your driers?) or would you recommend something else entirely.

I am new at this, but would appreciate you bestowing myself and others with your wisdom, and apologies if I have asked questions that have already been answered.


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## stormp (Nov 11, 2012)

Even the crystal wizards know what works 



> *So far my plant has reacted greatly to the moss agate pyramid. I put it right in between the 2 buckets on the ground. My root mass has increased incredibly the past few days. Granted I have been using h2o2 and switched out the water with fresh nutes.*


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## doniawon (Nov 11, 2012)

lol crystal wizards..


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## NewguyNL (Nov 11, 2012)

Thanks, can you tell me how far from plants is your AAW in cooltube?


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## djbthunder (Nov 11, 2012)

Hey Al great advice but I do have a couple of questions.
I use a homemade aeroponic tote system and I am trying your 2 week system. Can I cut my roots if they start to go into the water I dont want a DWC system. And if so would it stunt the growth of the plants. I would only cut enough roots so they wont go into the water below


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## JCKHMR (Nov 12, 2012)

Hey Al,

Did my first hydro grow on a flood and drain table back in the early '80s. Had absolutely no idea what I was doing, and compared to what's available now... there was NO quality information available back then and I had great yields using Miracle Grow as my only nute source. The point being, you really have to try hard to screw up a grow and still so many out there find a way to do just that. Amazing.

There is no bigger rule than K.I.S.S.!

I just read a guys thread who claimed to be a "big fan" of yours, even dedicated his journal to you... then when I start reading he's built tables twice the size you had (I'm thinking, Man that's gonna be a lot of work) and puts just 8-10 plants on it and grows in Coco. What the Hell?

Water, nutes, lite and adequate ventalation (CO2 "recirculating," solves most heat and humidity issues and strengthens the stems).

Why do so many try to make this more complicated than it has to be? IMHO, anyone who's thinking about starting a grow should read your "...every 2 week" thread and if they don't follow it word for word they're an absolute... idiot. Just had to be said. I've tried a dozen different grow "methods" over the years and while what I'm doing now is a lot more complicated, I'm not getting any better results for all my added effort than the basic model you've outlined. You've stripped away the B.S. and provided a perfect road map for success.

Props,

Jckhmr


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 12, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Happy to help.
> 
> I just wrote a relatively long reply on another thread which has some bearing on what we're takling about here, so I'm going to repost it here in entirety.
> 
> BUdbuddysmile is asking our unmethodical, anti-scientific H2O2 leaf-sprayer what the deal was- and I reply to him:


you shat all over him and his flawed philosophies. ZING!


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 13, 2012)

ectweak said:


> I have been reading through countless "Manuals" and all of your threads (trying to sift through the nonsense almost made me want to quit) But I have finally gotten to the point that I am going to begin my first Grow.
> 
> Being someone who like to have control of everything, I have decided to start with Hydroponics, as well as it becoming Winter in my hemisphere, and it is the only way to grow at this time.
> 
> ...


 My primary comment about advice from hydro shop clerks is that if their advice was worth anything, it's highly improbable that they would be writing up sales for minimum wage in a hydro shop. 'Cleaning' is a pretty weak excuse for not using multiple trays. If anything, the clerk should have used your interest in a multiple tray system to upsell you. 

Cleaning flood & drain systems is as easy as it gets. If you're using H2O2 as I recommend, it's barely necessary. I clean trays when they start to get a bit of nutrient salt buildup, but I don't always clean trays between batches. I do on occasion spray a stiff H2O2 (~20%) solution with a drop of liquid dish soap added as a wetting agent into the tanks on renewing nute solutions if there's any algae in evidence. 

The primary downside to not running a 4-tank/tray system is that you can't use flowering boosters like Canna PK1314 in week 5 without dosing all the plants. 

Strongly suggest you build a bud dryer. Eliminates any possibility of mouldy buds as well as speeds up the drying, such that you have aromatic buds stinking up the place for a much shorter period of time.



stormp said:


> Even the crystal wizards know what works


 I shall delegate commentary on crystal waving goobers to Captain Picard:






NewguyNL said:


> Thanks, can you tell me how far from plants is your AAW in cooltube?


 My AAWs with cooltubes are hung with yoyos so I can adjust the clearance at will, but they're usually about 250-300mm from the plant tops. Cooltubes are so effective at controlling IR emissions that leaves can be touching them without damage. However, if the lamps are that low, the plants furthest from them will be shadowed by the plants nearest. Clearance should be determined by most even light coverage of all plants.



djbthunder said:


> Hey Al great advice but I do have a couple of questions.
> I use a homemade aeroponic tote system and I am trying your 2 week system. Can I cut my roots if they start to go into the water I dont want a DWC system. And if so would it stunt the growth of the plants. I would only cut enough roots so they wont go into the water below


 You could trim the roots a little without doing too much damage, but if you have a reliable, backed-up & redundant air supply in your aero system, there's no harm in letting it behave like a DWC. I use pots of absorbent media because it allows portability of plants within the op, something that you can't do with either aero or DWC and which has much greater resilience to power interruptions and equipment failures. 



JCKHMR said:


> Hey Al,
> 
> Did my first hydro grow on a flood and drain table back in the early '80s. Had absolutely no idea what I was doing, and compared to what's available now... there was NO quality information available back then and I had great yields using Miracle Grow as my only nute source. The point being, you really have to try hard to screw up a grow and still so many out there find a way to do just that. Amazing.


People dis Miracle Grow quite a lot, but in reality, it's not a bad soluble plant food at all. It's designed for use in soil though, and doesn't have every little whipstitch of micronutes you will find in high quality hydroponic nutrients. 



> There is no bigger rule than K.I.S.S.!


Yep. 



> I just read a guys thread who claimed to be a "big fan" of yours, even dedicated his journal to you... then when I start reading he's built tables twice the size you had (I'm thinking, Man that's gonna be a lot of work) and puts just 8-10 plants on it and grows in Coco. What the Hell?


*sigh* Yep, there's a lot of unauthorised invocations of the Fuct "brand" (as it were) floating around the web in application to systems and methods that I have never used and wouldn't recommend. I think my (least) favourite was someone flogging an 'Al B. Fuct SCRoG grow.' I am certainly not the inventor of the SoG method, but I use a refinement of it for very good reasons, mainly high production per sq ft combined with simplicity. 8-10 plants in trays double the size of mine makes me think that person was topping the plants & vegging before flowering to make them bush out, which is a direct contradiction of the SoG method, defeats its purpose/advantages and totally blows the timeline. 



> Water, nutes, lite and adequate ventalation (CO2 "recirculating," solves most heat and humidity issues and strengthens the stems).


mmm hmm. 



> Why do so many try to make this more complicated than it has to be? IMHO, anyone who's thinking about starting a grow should read your "...every 2 week" thread and if they don't follow it word for word they're an absolute... idiot. Just had to be said. I've tried a dozen different grow "methods" over the years and while what I'm doing now is a lot more complicated, I'm not getting any better results for all my added effort than the basic model you've outlined. You've stripped away the B.S. and provided a perfect road map for success.


Thanks. I really don't know why some folks want to modify the fundamentals of the '2 week' system. It is a distillation of performance vs. utility. I built in a few compromises that may shave a few % off absolute max yield (notably use of pots of absorbent media in flood trays over any other watering system) but which make the system infinitely easier to work with, certainly over the longer term.



The New Jim Jones said:


> you shat all over him and his flawed philosophies. ZING!


Thanks, but I'm not really here to shit on ppl or prove what a badass I am. That particular joker got up my nose by repeating falsehoods after having been shown authoritative information about the toxicity of a substance, published by the manufacturer of the substance. It doesn't get any more authoritative and accurate than that. Facts are real things and they matter!


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## JCKHMR (Nov 14, 2012)

Welcome *ectweak*,

A 2'X2' table with 7" (175mm) pots would hold 9 plants (24"x24"). It's the little details in Al's system that are really ingenious - one of those details is moving the plants from one table to the next instead of "simply" switching reservoirs. One advantage is cleanliness, but the underlying benefit is actually taking a little time to examine each plant during the move (after cleaning the empty tray). Also, plants will have slight variations in growth rates, so while moving them you&#8217;re able to reposition and rotate plants so taller ones go to the &#8220;outside&#8221; of the tray and you can bring the smaller/shorter plants closer to the lamp where they won&#8217;t be shadowed by the bigger girls. You get 3 opportunities to do this during the 2 month flower.

You're right about the progression. Harvest #4, clean tray, move plants tray #3 to #4, clean #3, move #2 -#3... newly rooted clones get loaded into tray #1.

Let me offer another variation I don&#8217;t recall Al mentioning in his post, if all the trays start at the same level&#8230; the newly rooted clones you&#8217;re loading into tray #1 will obviously be much shorter than the plants you&#8217;ve moved into tray #2; which will be slightly shorter than those you will have moved to tray #3 (#3 & #4 should be fairly close in height). You certainly don&#8217;t want an 18&#8221; difference in the height of the plants between the trays, so in order to establish a fairly consistent canopy height between the 4 trays, #1 should be sitting 6&#8220;- 12&#8221; higher, and #2 should be 4&#8221;-6&#8221; higher than trays #3 &#4. This will be dependent on the strain you&#8217;re growing. So think about leaving a couple extra inches of hose on the fill and drain tubes between those first 2 trays and their reservoirs and devise a way of elevating them so as to end up with a more even canopy.

*You don&#8217;t want* the canopy to be even at the start&#8230; remember the plants during those first 2 weeks are going to shoot up considerably so if you start the plants in #1 even with #2, they&#8217;ll be a lot taller by time you move them 'downhill' to tray #2. You want to try and split the difference so they start out a little shorter and in 2 weeks their a little taller.

A 400 HPS would bearly work for what would be roughly a 5'x5' (all 4 trays together) flower area - but if you're buying for your project spend the little extra for a digital dimmable 600 or 1000 watt lamp - You're never going smaller with your grow... but eventually wanting to go bigger is the obvious progression.

https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/6592-get-harvest-every-2-weeks.html
https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/15030-batch-clones-rockwool.html

Yes, this is a SOG operation at this size. The most important thing about a Sea of Green is the pruning of the plant. It is really hard to trim away healthy lower growth but you want the plant to pump nutes to just a couple HUGE colas on the top, not a bunch of popcorn on lower branches that shouldn't even be there. The above links are your manuals... the "big cutting" process Al lays out will put you about 8-10 days ahead of the game. Once a "small" clone takes root and starts to feed on the nutes, it will take at least a week to get to the point where his clones are starting.

Good luck.


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## ringlead3r (Nov 14, 2012)

Al I'm still having problems with wilting i think its due to low humidity seeing its only about 38% I was wondering what yours is normally at. air temp is right around 20c and medium temp is right around 28c


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## savage007 (Nov 14, 2012)

Hey Al!

Been reading and following for a long time...just built a cabinet and have some girls in bubble buckets, needless to say I am struggling...

Here's my info:
Girls: 6 Tahoe OG (5 now pulled weakest one down to see it's roots this morning due to no growth and limp ass plant)
Mother Area: 1.5' x 3' x 4'
Lighting: (1) 156watt 4 bulb HO T5 with (2) SunWave 12k (1) SuperBlue 460 (1) Truelumen Flora
Room temp range: 74 Hi 62 Low (currently 70)
Humidity range: 45-55
Res temp range: 60-70 (currently 63) - Last res change was Saturday 11/10 pH was 5.5, 650ppm
Using GH Flora 3 part: Currently @ 630ppm's (week prior 430, week prior to that 400) - Note: I have Canna for flowering Substra Hard water and pk 13/14 just using the GH nutes cause they were available, but I would like to use the canna for vegging too! 
Tap water stats: 170ppm and 8.2 pH
pH in buckets: currently 5.8-6.2 (although it was all over weeks prior, would set @ 5.4 and would rise rapidly to 6.5+ in 12-24 hours. I have the chart and recorded jumps/adjustments if needed)

*Using 29% H2O2 @ 3ml a gallon every change/top off
*When I top off I use pH'd tap water to 5.5 and H2O2 every day/other day if buckets shows signs of drinking (also if I need to bring pH down I do it after top off and I use home made pH down, mix: sulfuric acid 1 cup to 1 gal distilled water)
*Using home made bubble buckets (2) 2.5 gal (1) 3.5 gal and (1) GH HydroFarm with 3 girls in it - this one is always all over the place with pH

Just switched over to GH pH down powder, I had thought I was getting sulfur toxicity with the hard water I have and the home brew pH down.
Pics:


I have a chart I can upload that shows all my adjustments ect but here's the pics from last few weeks  sad...If I can get these girls healthy I can move forward and take clones and try my luck flowering but haven't been able to as of yet.

Thank you for your time and any suggestions you may have.

PS - Im not married to these Tahoe OG's (OR GH NUTES) esp since I will be SOG'ing in some HP Aero chambers in the flowering partition and realize OG prob isn't the best strain. I just wanted to start with something and these were left over from another grow. I can dump em and start fresh but wanted to learn on these first.

My faith is dwindling - So I'm reaching out to the MAN! Al B Fuct!


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## savage007 (Nov 14, 2012)

Oh and I forgot to mention..

Roots have grown since they have been put in the buckets about 3+ weeks ago, no smell but slight browning color. They have just started to come out the sides of the net pots.

I guess I don't expect the old growth or leaves to change drastically or show immediate improvement...but 3+ weeks in buckets, maybe 3 inches of growth and the way they look has got this savage confused and almost as sad as them plants!

Again thank you for any time or recommendations you have, it is GREATLY APPRECIATED!!!

savage007


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## Grandpapy (Nov 14, 2012)

Hey Al,
First off, Gday! And Thank you for providing all tips, techniques, and Ideas.

This question comes from me not being able to see pics of your grow room, The link to the "in Operation" photos is Fuct. lol.

Could you repost that photo? 

I have a 10x10 room with only 2 4x4' trays and I'm feeling cramped! I'm really interested in your wiring and pluming and what you do to keep it neat, out of the way, do your reservoirs dump to drain or do you pump them out? 

Again, Thanks for helping, if I could I'd shout for tea.


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 14, 2012)

Hey Al lemme bombard you with questions! ahahahah I'm just kidding, your quite the man for answering every person's question, even if you answered it somewhere in this thread. YOU DA MAYNE, I honestly don't think I'm going to go hydro, just because I have everything I need for a good soil grow, but I shall lurk in the crevices and niches of this thread, or wait, I might go hydro sometime in the future if my brother wants to grow in his new place, but thats a quite a variable. Stay lit.


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## savage007 (Nov 14, 2012)

savage007 said:


> Hey Al!
> 
> Been reading and following for a long time...just built a cabinet and have some girls in bubble buckets, needless to say I am struggling...
> 
> ...


Holy shitballz it just dawned on me...I think my T5 is way to far away from the girls, hence all the issues!!! I should have that light SLAMMED on the tops of them things...

Man I Fuct myself!!!...

PERFECT


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 15, 2012)

if you read then you can see im an idiot


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## stormp (Nov 15, 2012)

The New Jim Jones said:


> if you read Al B fuct's post, hes out of the RIU community, hes too busy with the work that he loves





Al B. Fuct said:


> View attachment 2409857


Last thing I saw Al post above, two days ago.

Are you sure that you are not referring to a very old post jim?


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 15, 2012)

im a 1000% idiot


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## doniawon (Nov 15, 2012)

he's been updating this thread.he is answering questions still???


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 15, 2012)

im an idiot


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## doniawon (Nov 15, 2012)

Thats old. He checks in on us still


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## ringlead3r (Nov 15, 2012)

Go troll somewhere else lol


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 15, 2012)

damn i suck, sorry for my stupidity


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 15, 2012)

JCKHMR said:


> in order to establish a fairly consistent canopy height between the 4 trays, #1 should be sitting 6&#8220;- 12&#8221; higher, and #2 should be 4&#8221;-6&#8221; higher than trays #3 &#4. This will be dependent on the strain you&#8217;re growing. So think about leaving a couple extra inches of hose on the fill and drain tubes between those first 2 trays and their reservoirs and devise a way of elevating them so as to end up with a more even canopy.


 All generally good, but the plants in a properly operating system will be at their final height in wk4, so trays 2, 3 & 4 can all be at the same height from the floor. My tray 1 is blocked up 50mm taller than tray 2, but it really doesn't need to be. I've only blocked that tray up in the last year & a bit or so. The tray 1 plants catch up pretty quickly. 



> A 400 HPS would bearly work for what would be roughly a 5'x5' (all 4 trays together) flower area - but if you're buying for your project spend the little extra for a digital dimmable 600 or 1000 watt lamp - You're never going smaller with your grow... but eventually wanting to go bigger is the obvious progression.


 A general rule for HPS lighting is 50W/sq ft. A 400HPS will cover an 8 sq ft rectangular area, 2'x4' or a pair of 2'x2' trays.

I would recommend against 'digital' aka electronic ballasts. 'Magnetic' ballasts have just 3 working components (ballast coil, capacitor & igniter) and every one of them is more durable than the weakest component (semiconductor junctions) in electronic ballasts. Magnetic ballasts' service life is measured in decades. The component which tends to fail is the capacitor, and they rarely fail catastrophically. Light output may dim as the capacitor wears out, but rarely do magnetic ballasts quit entirely. Any old schmoe can replace a capacitor in a magnetic ballast. Capacitors are cheap & available and you might even consider replacing them as a wear component every 3-5 years. Even if you don't want to tear into your magnetic ballast and replace a capacitor, good quality magnetic ballasts (those with bolted laminations in their ballast coil) are so inexpensive that you you can justify having an entire spare ballast unit on the shelf. 

Electronic ballasts do not have a ballast coil (as do magnetics), which wastes about 5% of the input power as heat due to eddy currents, but the durability/reliability of magnetics is so superior to electronic types that the 5% greater power consumption of a magnetic a worthwhile trade-off. 



> Yes, this is a SOG operation at this size. The most important thing about a Sea of Green is the pruning of the plant. It is really hard to trim away healthy lower growth but you want the plant to pump nutes to just a couple HUGE colas on the top, not a bunch of popcorn on lower branches that shouldn't even be there. The above links are your manuals... the "big cutting" process Al lays out will put you about 8-10 days ahead of the game. Once a "small" clone takes root and starts to feed on the nutes, it will take at least a week to get to the point where his clones are starting.


 Yep, all that. 



ringlead3r said:


> Al I'm still having problems with wilting i think its due to low humidity seeing its only about 38% I was wondering what yours is normally at. air temp is right around 20c and medium temp is right around 28c


 Humidity is not generally something you have to worry about. If your clones are wilting, it's almost certainly because of stem tip rotting due to overwet conditions in your cloning medium. If the stem tip has rotted, the cutting can't take up any water, causing wilt.



savage007 said:


> Hey Al!
> 
> Been reading and following for a long time...just built a cabinet and have some girls in bubble buckets, needless to say I am struggling...
> 
> pH in buckets: currently 5.8-6.2 (although it was all over weeks prior, would set @ 5.4 and would rise rapidly to 6.5+ in 12-24 hours. I have the chart and recorded jumps/adjustments if needed)


 pH jumping up like that is a pretty reliable indicator of pathogen infection (pythium, fusarium etc) in your rootmass. 



> *Using 29% H2O2 @ 3ml a gallon every change/top off


 And that's why. You're not using enough H2O2 nor are you using it frequently enough. If using 29%, you should be using 1.7ml/L every 3-4 days. 

Bubble buckets aka DWC is not a method I'd recommend as a general rule and definitely not a good method for new growers. Maintenance is difficult & DWC is susceptible to big problems if there's a power failure or air pump failure. 



> *When I top off I use pH'd tap water to 5.5 and H2O2 every day/other day if buckets shows signs of drinking (also if I need to bring pH down I do it after top off and I use home made pH down, mix: sulfuric acid 1 cup to 1 gal distilled water)


 Don't use sulfuric acid to adjust pH. Use proper pHDown, available from any hydro shop. It's one of the very cheapest chemicals a hydro shop carries- there's just no excuse for attempting to use battery acid as a substitute. You can get either the phosphoric acid based type for flowering plants or nitric acid based for vegging plants, but the phosphoric acid based flavour will work in either application. 

Never adjust pH of your makeup water. 5.5 is far too low anyway. Mix plain tapwater with nutrient concentrate, check pH & adjust as required afterward. Good quality nNutrient concentrates will generally contain pH buffers, which when mixed to around 1000ppm will set your pH pretty close to 5.8. 



> *Using home made bubble buckets (2) 2.5 gal (1) 3.5 gal and (1) GH HydroFarm with 3 girls in it - this one is always all over the place with pH


 As said, the pH jumping up is indicative of pathogen infection. 



> Just switched over to GH pH down powder, I had thought I was getting sulfur toxicity with the hard water I have and the home brew pH down.
> Pics:


 Yep, bigtime root problems, caused by pathogen infections. 



> I have a chart I can upload that shows all my adjustments ect but here's the pics from last few weeks  sad...If I can get these girls healthy I can move forward and take clones and try my luck flowering but haven't been able to as of yet.


 Your plants are in pretty bad nick. Make plans around getting some good cuttings going and starting over. 


> PS - Im not married to these Tahoe OG's (OR GH NUTES) esp since I will be SOG'ing in some HP Aero chambers in the flowering partition and realize OG prob isn't the best strain. I just wanted to start with something and these were left over from another grow. I can dump em and start fresh but wanted to learn on these first.


 I'd not recommend aero for a SoG op. You can't move plants around easily within the op to even up growth among the plants. Strongly suggest you change to flood & drain systems with plants in pots of absorbent media of some sort. I'm seeing very good performance with Sure To Grow loose fill media. 



savage007 said:


> Oh and I forgot to mention..
> 
> Roots have grown since they have been put in the buckets about 3+ weeks ago, no smell but slight browning color.


 Tan/brown roots are dead roots.



Grandpapy said:


> Hey Al,
> First off, Gday! And Thank you for providing all tips, techniques, and Ideas.


 No worries. 



> This question comes from me not being able to see pics of your grow room, The link to the "in Operation" photos is Fuct. lol.


 *sigh* RIU has a very bad habit of losing photos- and I'm losing my patience with RIU. My entire photo library disappeared some time back- hundreds of instructive photos, many painstakingly Photoshop assembled images, just gone. 



> Could you repost that photo?


 What would you like a photo of? 


> I have a 10x10 room with only 2 4x4' trays and I'm feeling cramped! I'm really interested in your wiring and pluming and what you do to keep it neat, out of the way, do your reservoirs dump to drain or do you pump them out?


 Electrics are best managed by building a power panel. No electrics should ever touch the floor. EVER. 







Details are here. https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/13825-power-panel-keep-electrics-safe.html

Tanks have a valving system for dumping old nute solns:






Details are here: https://www.rollitup.org/hydroponics-aeroponics/9187-easy-drain-system-flood-hydro.html



> Again, Thanks for helping, if I could I'd shout for tea.


 Thanks, but I'm not actually a tea fan. Coffee, black, will do. 



The New Jim Jones said:


> Hey Al lemme bombard you with questions! ahahahah I'm just kidding, your quite the man for answering every person's question, even if you answered it somewhere in this thread. YOU DA MAYNE, I honestly don't think I'm going to go hydro, just because I have everything I need for a good soil grow, but I shall lurk in the crevices and niches of this thread, or wait, I might go hydro sometime in the future if my brother wants to grow in his new place, but thats a quite a variable. Stay lit.


Soil is a major pain in the ass compared to hydroponics. Heavy, can harbour pathogens, hard to dispose of, never performs as well as hydroponics with sterile media for each crop. Get past your fear, fork out the cash to do a hydro system correctly & just get on with it.



savage007 said:


> Holy shitballz it just dawned on me...I think my T5 is way to far away from the girls, hence all the issues!!! I should have that light SLAMMED on the tops of them things...
> 
> Man I Fuct myself!!!...
> 
> PERFECT


Fluoros are OK for clones. Use HPS or MH for mums (I use a 400HPS for 10 mums), HPS only for flowering plants.



doniawon said:


> he's been updating this thread.he is answering questions still???


I THINK so!


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## linky (Nov 16, 2012)

I recently just switched to hydro, using flood and drain bucket system (12 4 gal buckets per 55 gal res, flo n gro). I am using house and gardens nutes, a, b, root exel, algen extract, multi zen, drip clean, bloombastic, nitro boost, superthrive, cal mag and have bud candy as well for use in flowering. I have been debating using something like h2o2 as a preventative to baddies forming in my systems. As of now I am just using ro water and nutes. I use 6" grodans and large perlite as medium. I noticed some of the roots look stained brown.. smelled fine (well smelled earthy like). If I wipe my finger over the roots hanging down whatever was making it brown (maybe nutes?) it would wipe off and they would be white. Do not feel slimey at all.


*** I went and bought some h2o2, 29 percent at the grow store. I am using that now in the res's. 

Another big concern for me is how often to flood. its a ebb n flo system (gro n flo). Has a 55 gal res, 12 4 gal buckets/net pots. I am using 6" grodans and large chunk perlite as medium. I know the grodans will hold quite a bit of water and not sure how often I should be flooding.. I have been flooding 3 times a day in veg but seems it may be to much.. plants look ok. but not as good as they should/could be. I have lowered it to once a day now and will see how that goes.

I veg for 3 weeks (get plants to about 20-24") before going into flower room, 19/5 light schedule. I veg under 3 600 watt mh's and flower under 6 1k's hps in raptor hoods (vented hoods in veg as well). Flower room has 3 flo n gro setups, doing 3 runs of 12 for a total of 36 plants, cut down every 3 weeks this way. I have been doing this in soil for the past year and just switched to hydro. temps in flower room are 75 with lights on, 68-70 lights off, temps in veg room are 77-79 lights on and 70ish lights off.

How often should I be flooding overall do you feel?

** Just finished reading almost all of al b.'s posts in this thread and noticed you are now using sure to grow medium. I am going to try to get a hold of the 6" blocks they sell and use those for now on.. seems like a better alternative to the grodans.. how often would you flood using the sure to grow blocks in perlite?

Another thing.. all the nutes/additives I have..

I see you mainly just use base nutes, A and B.. I was probably ill advised by friends and grow stores and online and paid a TON of money for stuff like root exec, algen extract, bloombastic, nitro boost, AN's bud candy and so on.. Should I just ditch all this stuff and just run A and B through veg and flower? Which house and gardens nute would you run during flower on top of A and B? I see you run something special for week 5 on your grows. I was told and have read bloombastic is good for this time in flower, I'm not there yet so have not tried it.. but at 200 a liter its pricey.

In soil I vegged to 24".. plants end up around 5' in flower but I yield about 4 ozs a plant of nice dense crystally bud and plan to continue growing to these sizes now that I am in hydro. I have started lollipopping now as well, only did a little bit of this previously.

As I said I have been using ro water all along.. which again is probably not needed from what I have read in this thread and may switch to just using tap.. water here is roughly 170ppm (have to verify that again, been awhile since I checked last). Having 4 55 gal hydro res's and 3 45 gal just ro water res's for water changes etc is kinda annoying, would be nice to ditch those 3 extra containers and just use tap for everything.. plus won't need to be buying cal mag anymore.

All your info has been great btw, thank you! Really helped a ton.. and made me realize just how much fuckin money I have wasted it appears lol.


thanks!


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## mountainboy (Nov 16, 2012)

Linky, you better go back and read this thread. Its mentioned about 100 times....lol, Al's gonna chew you a new ass about the bleach.


----------



## linky (Nov 16, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Linky, you better go back and read this thread. Its mentioned about 100 times....lol, Al's gonna chew you a new ass about the bleach.


lol yeah i spent the past few hours reading the thread and see h2o2 is the way to go.


----------



## Adrive (Nov 16, 2012)

Ph question: tested the run off of four hopeful girlies and it read 9.2-9.5 ph and the ec readings were from .8,1.5 for the two getting a 1.0 ec diet. The other two read 1.8 ec and they receive 2.0 ec diet.. 

Flushed the rockwool with 5.5 ph until I got a reading of 6.0-6.5 ph before I transplanted


Confused about how the ph is so high but the ec readings are perfect with my feeds, plants aren't showing any signs of lockout.


Just received some loose STG!!!


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## oceangreen (Nov 16, 2012)

9.2 runoff.. Something's not right...


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 17, 2012)

linky said:


> I recently just switched to hydro, using flood and drain bucket system (12 4 gal buckets per 55 gal res, flo n gro). I am using house and gardens nutes, a, b, root exel, algen extract, multi zen, drip clean, bloombastic, nitro boost, superthrive, cal mag and have bud candy as well for use in flowering. I have been debating using something like h2o2 as a preventative to baddies forming in my systems. As of now I am just using ro water and nutes. I use 6" grodans and large perlite as medium. I noticed some of the roots look stained brown.. smelled fine (well smelled earthy like). If I wipe my finger over the roots hanging down whatever was making it brown (maybe nutes?) it would wipe off and they would be white. Do not feel slimey at all.
> 
> 
> *** I went and bought some h2o2, 29 percent at the grow store. I am using that now in the res's.
> ...


Happy to help & thanks for the thanks. 

You're not going to like me very much- I would change just about everything that you're doing. Please refer to my 'Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks' thread as linked in my signature. 

Vegging clones before flowering wastes time and money. SoG produces better quality, easier to manicure buds and more weight per sq ft of lighted space. Please consider switching to plants in pots of absorbent media in flood & drain trays. 

RO is completely unnecessary if you're on typical 1st-world municipal tapwater. 170ppm out of the tap is really quite 'soft' water but ought to have enough Ca & Mg for your purposes. 

'Magic sauces' are indeed a waste of money, with the sole exception of those based on P & K such as Canna PK1314. I am not a gambler but I would put a few bucks on many 'magic sauces' being comprised mainly of water with food dyes added for effect. I've even seen 'bloom boosters' which contain beeswax as a main ingredient- which doesn't even dissolve in water, let alone be taken up by plants, for whatever purpose. 'Bloombastic' is a prime example of a 'magic sauce.' They don't give you any idea of what's in the stuff nor give any plausible mechanism for how it works; they just tell you it's wonderful & charge you $200/L for it. Crap. Anyone telling you they have a 'unique' magic sauce, of which the ingredients are a trade secret, is bullshitting you- and laughing all the way to the bank. 

I'm not familiar with 'home & garden' nutes- never heard of the stuff before. A good 2-part hydroponic nutrient from a large, well-known nutrient maker like GH, AN or Canna is preferred. I've used Canna for more than a decade. It's not the cheapest but it absolutely provides consistent & reliable results. Large mfrs are preferred as their products tend to be more consistent over time. 

Never use laundry bleach as a nute solution steriliser, despite the protestations of some on this & other cannabis boards. H2O2 is far preferable; it breaks down into 2H2O + O upon contact with pathogens, introducing oxygen into the rootmass. If you can only get 29% H2O2, dose your nute solns at 1.7ml/L every 3-4 days. That 'earthy' smell in your rootmasses is being caused by pathogen infections, notably fungi. Rootmasses in hydroponic systems should have no scent at all. 

Rotsaruck!



mountainboy said:


> Linky, you better go back and read this thread. Its mentioned about 100 times....lol, Al's gonna chew you a new ass about the bleach.


I try not to bawl anyone out over bad practises- I'm not here to make people feel bad. I'm here to help ppl grow dope frugally. 'Frugal' does not mean 'cheap,' it means value for money.



Adrive said:


> Ph question: tested the run off of four hopeful girlies and it read 9.2-9.5 ph and the ec readings were from .8,1.5 for the two getting a 1.0 ec diet. The other two read 1.8 ec and they receive 2.0 ec diet..
> 
> Flushed the rockwool with 5.5 ph until I got a reading of 6.0-6.5 ph before I transplanted
> 
> ...


pH jumping up is usually a pretty reliable indicator of pathogen infection in the rootmass. 9.5 is out of the ballpark. Don't adjust pH of water before mixing with nutes. 5.5 is too low, in any instance. The magic number for pH in hydroponics is 5.8. Make sure your pH meter is not lying to you. Calibrate your pH meter before EACH use, employing reference standard 4.0 & 7.0 solutions. Colour-matching pH test kits are not suitable for hydroponics. If you don't have one, get a good pH meter. Eutech's meters are reliable and durable. Their pH Tester 10 is a good 'un.


----------



## linky (Nov 17, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Happy to help & thanks for the thanks.
> 
> You're not going to like me very much- I would change just about everything that you're doing. Please refer to my 'Get a Harvest Every 2 Weeks' thread as linked in my signature.
> 
> ...



House and Gardens is a higher end nutrient like canna, even comes in the same containers as canna, well the large containers, I thought I heard somewhere canna and house and gardens were related somehow.. not sure though on that.. probably not lol.

I veg for a few weeks just because I get 4oz per plant doing it that way, I top once about a week into veg.. get 4 or 5 nice colas that get 16" long buds on each one. Granted I have not tried skipping veg stage and going straight to a flower light schedule but I kinda doubt I would be pulling off the same numbers.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 17, 2012)

linky said:


> House and Gardens is a higher end nutrient like canna, even comes in the same containers as canna, well the large containers, I thought I heard somewhere canna and house and gardens were related somehow.. not sure though on that.. probably not lol.


Still have never heard of the stuff. Looked them up on the web; seems H&G are miming Canna's label art & colours to give the impression that their product is like Canna's. H&G is not made by Canna & the 2 outfits have no relation to each other. H&G appear to be trying to ride Canna's coattails (and they appear to have persuaded at least you that there's some similarity between the products...) and I find that disingenuous enough that I'd walk a mile away from H&G's products. If H&G are charging Canna-level prices without Canna's well-established, decades-long reputation for performance and quality, I'd not walk, I'd run. How high a product is priced generally offers you no clue about the quality or reliability of the product. 



> I veg for a few weeks just because I get 4oz per plant doing it that way, I top once about a week into veg.. get 4 or 5 nice colas that get 16" long buds on each one. Granted I have not tried skipping veg stage and going straight to a flower light schedule but I kinda doubt I would be pulling off the same numbers.


Per-plant yield is not a particularly good way to gauge the output of a grow op since the sizes of plants can vary broadly. It's more reasonable to gauge productivity by how much weight you're getting for the amount of lighting power you're throwing at the crop. I am flowering with a pair of 1000HPS lamps and yielding about 18oz per 2 weeks while investing no power cost at all in vegging plants that I'll later flower. 

You could characterise productivity in a number of ways, from grams/watt to grams/kWh/year or even grams/kWh/sq ft/year, but this much I can tell you- SoG outperforms any other method, bar none, by any standard of comparison. There's no time nor electricity cost wasted in vegging plants which will be flowered; all lighted floorspace can be devoted to flowering instead of tying it up with vegging.


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## doniawon (Nov 17, 2012)

Al what strain r u running these days


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## linky (Nov 17, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Still have never heard of the stuff. Looked them up on the web; seems H&G are miming Canna's label art & colours to give the impression that their product is like Canna's. H&G is not made by Canna & the 2 outfits have no relation to each other. H&G appear to be trying to ride Canna's coattails (and they appear to have persuaded at least you that there's some similarity between the products...) and I find that disingenuous enough that I'd walk a mile away from H&G's products. If H&G are charging Canna-level prices without Canna's well-established, decades-long reputation for performance and quality, I'd not walk, I'd run. How high a product is priced generally offers you no clue about the quality or reliability of the product.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I have 36 plants in flower under 6 1k raptor 8" vented hoods.. last 12 I cut down I got 3.25 lbs. so what that equals to cost per watt or whatever other equation to plop that into I dunno.. but I am happy with the results. Plus I am in a state where I am limited to the number of plants I can legally grow. I am just struggling a little with my move to hydro atm.. mostly from misinformation.. as you can read polar opposite opinions from one thread to another. You seem to be a well respected grower and appear to know your shit so I am really taking note of your advice.

As far as House and Gardens nutrients I can't tell you how good or bad they are. A buddy has been using them for about 3 years now with great results. From what I have read online they make a quality nutrient... other than what I have read and see from my buddies grow I don't know much else about them.. but I could not really tell you about any other nutrient out there either though besides botanicare pro line.. which I used when I was growing in soil.. that seemed to work well for me. Maybe once my 20l containers of h&g a and b are gone I will give canna a try.


thanks again.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 17, 2012)

doniawon said:


> Al what strain r u running these days


Sweet Tooth No. 4 from Spice of Life. Probably no longer available from SoL. Still running plants which were sprouted from beans bought in 2002. There's other indica dominant hybrids out there which will perform similarly, eg Blockhead. 



linky said:


> I have 36 plants in flower under 6 1k raptor 8" vented hoods.. last 12 I cut down I got 3.25 lbs. so what that equals to cost per watt or whatever other equation to plop that into I dunno.. but I am happy with the results.


Don't forget, when you are vegging plants before flowering them, you must also include the power/cost of the vegging lighting into your productivity calculations. 



> Plus I am in a state where I am limited to the number of plants I can legally grow.


That's certainly a viable reason to not use the SoG arrangement. However, if you ever have cause to worry about someone coming in and counting your plants, you need to revisit your security culture. 

Even if I lived in the US in a state where medicinal (or even recreational, given the results of the recent election) cannabis is legal, I would not participate in any registration scheme. Legalities are still far too tenuous given the DEA Schedule 1 prohibition of cannabis at a federal level. Things could flip overnight and the relevant authorities would have my details- for life. 



> I am just struggling a little with my move to hydro atm.. mostly from misinformation.. as you can read polar opposite opinions from one thread to another.


Noted. The problem with people giving advice about growing is there's so little independent, university-level peer-reviewed research & data. The advice proffered is only as good as the analytical skills of the advisor. It's really easy to make erroneous conclusions about the benefit of certain methods additives etc without doing controlled trials, preferably in parallel to limit variables. 



> You seem to be a well respected grower and appear to know your shit so I am really taking note of your advice.


Thanks. The way one earns respect in this environment is to do the work, describe it well and see if other, independent growers can replicate it. The latter has happened quite a lot in the case of information I've posted to an assortment of cannabis boards over the last 16 years or so. 



> As far as House and Gardens nutrients I can't tell you how good or bad they are. A buddy has been using them for about 3 years now with great results. From what I have read online they make a quality nutrient... other than what I have read and see from my buddies grow I don't know much else about them.. but I could not really tell you about any other nutrient out there either though besides botanicare pro line.. which I used when I was growing in soil.. that seemed to work well for me. Maybe once my 20l containers of h&g a and b are gone I will give canna a try.


If H&G develops a broad track record of good performance, I'm sure they'll find a following. However, to capture a market niche, they're going to have to do more than mimic Canna packaging- they'll be competing on price vs performance- and most notably, reliability across batches over several years. Canna's got about 17 years of history making a world-class product. Challengers have got their work cut out for them.


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## linky (Nov 17, 2012)

So with using 6" grodans and perlite how often would your educated be to flood? I just lowered to once a day in flower and in veg. I think I was over watering before. I do want to get a hold of those sure to grow 6" blocks they sell and switch to them though.

Also as far as a schedule 1 on a federal level that is true but it is in the supreme court right now to have it removed from that list.. crossing my fingers!


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 17, 2012)

linky said:


> So with using 6" grodans and perlite how often would your educated be to flood? I just lowered to once a day in flower and in veg. I think I was over watering before. I do want to get a hold of those sure to grow 6" blocks they sell and switch to them though.
> 
> Also as far as a schedule 1 on a federal level that is true but it is in the supreme court right now to have it removed from that list.. crossing my fingers!


Rockwool saturates easily. 6" blocks saturate & STAY saturated unless there's a large, thirsty plant in 'em. Overwatering problems are almost a sure thing when 6" RW blocks are used as the primary (cloning) medium. 6" blocks are intended to be used as a secondary medium- you clone in 40mm (1.5") cubes, then when you have a good spray of roots, plug the 40mm cube into the larger block- see http://grodan101.com/products/grodan-stonewool/blocks/hugo

Strongly recommend you clone in 40mm cubes then transplant into pots of absorbent media. RW blocks (& floc in pots) tend to hold too much water, which is why I switched to Fytocell some years ago. Recently, I've been using STG loose fill and am very happy with the performance- even better than Fytocell. 

I have no faith whatsoever in SCOTUS making any reasoned decisions on cannabis. This is the mob that brought you Citizens United, overturning 100 years of anti-corruption legislation and ruling that corporations are people. Thomas in particular is corrupt to the core- he opined against the Affordable Care Act (aka Obamacare) while his wife is a fucking lobbyist for Americans for Prosperity (Koch Bros)! How Obama managed to win when numerous GOP states implemented bogus 'voter ID' laws (though mostly blocked by Justice Dept lawsuits) and other electoral shenanigans designed to stop potential Dems from voting (note 6-8hr wait times to vote, esp in Florida) is absolutely amazing. 

Anyway, back to cannabis- SCOTUS will rule that DEA can make any rule it damned well pleases on any substance it deems dangerous or offensive and it need not necessarily justify rules to anyone. Your best bet as a dope grower is to carry on with high security & secrecy, even if you're in Colorado or Washington, which (for the moment) have legalised possession & recreational use.


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## linky (Nov 17, 2012)

Hey, I just checked my tap water ppm, its at 149.. will that have enough cal/mag in it to use with no problems without adding calmag additive?

thanks!

I clone in root riots.. but just made a cloner using ezcloner spray heads and will be figuring out a way to plant that into the 6" grodans.. and in the future the 6" sure to grow blocks. 8 days in the home made cloner and already have 4 inch roots all over the place outta the clones. 

Just saw this article about cal/mag in tap water...

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/505993-interesting-read-cal-mag-check.html


Just read some info on house and gardens nutes.. I guess its very popular in europe and made from a guy named Van De Zwaan, who I guess also made canna nutes.


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## savage007 (Nov 17, 2012)

Thanks for the help Al, much thanks for taking the time to answer questions and concerns!!

Best regards,
savage007

DO NOT CONTRACT with anyone as the contract holder makes the "LAWS"....example: Driver License, SSN, MJ Card....anything you sign representing your "ALL CAPS NAME"
Proper name: John Doe - real flesh and blood
Name of Corporation: JOHN DOE - NOT an actual being/human

"OFFICERS" enforce the "LAWS" of the contract holder, "PERSONS" "EMPLOYEES" and other "THINGS" are under the "JURISDICTION" of the "CORPORATION" which is privately owned (USA)

Failure to READ WHAT YOU SIGN and ignorance of the LAW is no excuse. DO AS I SAY NOT AS I DO...

You are FREE to choose, so CHOOSE TO BE FREE...

The ONLY thing we have to FEAR is FEAR itself...

SIMPLE  be everything you can possibly imagine on the inside and the reality you see will reflect just that


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## DND (Nov 18, 2012)

Al... no questions, just want to say thank you for all of the knowledge you have supplied here and in all of your threads. Peace to you my friend!


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 18, 2012)

linky said:


> Hey, I just checked my tap water ppm, its at 149.. will that have enough cal/mag in it to use with no problems without adding calmag additive?


Ought to be fine. Ca & Mg are micronutes- extremely small quantities are sufficient. 


> I clone in root riots.. but just made a cloner using ezcloner spray heads and will be figuring out a way to plant that into the 6" grodans.. and in the future the 6" sure to grow blocks. 8 days in the home made cloner and already have 4 inch roots all over the place outta the clones.


Root Riot plugs are compressed organic matter, just like Rapid Rooters. I can't recommend either one. 

Cloning in aerocloners is all well & good if you are going to grow the clones in an aeroponic or DWC system. However, transferring aerocloned, medialess clones into some sort of media can be fraught with danger- unsupported roots will happily break off, with almost no effort on your part! This is why I don't use aerocloners. 

Don't let your roots get more than about 25mm (1") or so long before CAREFULLY planting in a loose-fill medium. The longer they are, the easier they are to break!



savage007 said:


> Thanks for the help Al, much thanks for taking the time to answer questions and concerns!!
> 
> Best regards,
> savage007


Happy to help. 



DND said:


> Al... no questions, just want to say thank you for all of the knowledge you have supplied here and in all of your threads. Peace to you my friend!


Thanks for the thanks. Will help when I have time to do so.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 18, 2012)

linky said:


> Just saw this article about cal/mag in tap water...
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/505993-interesting-read-cal-mag-check.html


Wow, a press release from a guy who sells cal-mag, who thinks it's a good idea to buy cal-mag. Sold! (um... not)




> Just read some info on house and gardens nutes.. I guess its very popular in europe and made from a guy named Van De Zwaan, who I guess also made canna nutes.


You'll find rumours repeated on several cannabis boards that he has had some historical association with Canna, but this is simply not true. William Van De Zwaan has never been employed by nor associated with Canna, per Canna rep. I strongly suspect that such rumours are part of H&G's marketing strategy.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

Hey al. Long time reader of your famous SOG grow. U should c the threads ive made trying to get help for this lol. i didnt how to set up a flood table, but with the knowldege i have now i pobly could. but i found dwc would seem to work best for me. Currently trying to set up a blueprint and i herd you were the professional to ask.

i want to have 4 dwc mothers in a 4x4 tent 400w 18/6 lighting time. 

From there i want to take 32 clones and then transfer 8 each into 10 gallon tote for dwc. Cuttings will go straight to the 8x8 flower tent once they have shown signs of roots

In my 8x8 tent i want to put 2K W HPS lighting. So eventually in the 8x8 tent il have 128 clones and b harvesting 32 clones every 2 weeks. I want to harvest a pound every 2 weeks woll my setup enable me to do so?

the strain is Sour Kush (headband) from attitude and i want to use the lucas formula through out the grow


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 18, 2012)

inlovewiththc said:


> Hey al. Long time reader of your famous SOG grow. U should c the threads ive made trying to get help for this lol. i didnt how to set up a flood table, but with the knowldege i have now i pobly could. but i found dwc would seem to work best for me. Currently trying to set up a blueprint and i herd you were the professional to ask.


DWC is an advanced technique which I would not recommend for new growers. DWC is highly dependent upon constant air supply. A power or air pump failure lasting more than about 2-3hrs will kill the plant. If you're going to do DWC, you should have redundant air pumps (2 pumps & air stones) per plant and AC power backup, in the form of an uninterruptible power supply (UPS) which has enough battery capacity to run the pumps for a couple of days- we're talking major cash for such a UPS. Changing nute solutions in DWC is much more difficult than in flood systems. The plant has to come out of the DWC container while you dump old solutions, giving a reasonably good opportunity for damage. 

Flood & drain systems are stupidly simple (much simpler than DWC in practise) and are capable of coping with extended power outages or water pump failures which go unnoticed. Pots of absorbent media will keep the plants hydrated for a couple of days in most cases (animation by simplyhydro.com):







DWC systems do not generally facilitate plant portability within the op- the plant will pretty much have to stay where it is. In a flood system, it's no trouble to move an underperforming plant into a more preferential lighting position. 



> i want to have 4 dwc mothers in a 4x4 tent 400w 18/6 lighting time.


Of *all* the places I would never use DWC, mother plant systems are at the top of the list. If you lose your mother plants, you are (as we say in the biz) fucked. If the only plants in your op that survive a power failure happen to be in flower, you're (so to speak) dead in the water. 


> From there i want to take 32 clones and then transfer 8 each into 10 gallon tote for dwc. Cuttings will go straight to the 8x8 flower tent once they have shown signs of roots
> 
> In my 8x8 tent i want to put 2K W HPS lighting. So eventually in the 8x8 tent il have 128 clones and b harvesting 32 clones every 2 weeks. I want to harvest a pound every 2 weeks woll my setup enable me to do so?


Ditch the DWC idea and go for plants in pots of absorbent media watered by flood trays. 



> the strain is Sour Kush (headband) from attitude and i want to use the lucas formula through out the grow


Sour Kush is a predominantly indica hybrid and should do OK in a SoG op. 

I strongly recommend against use of 'Lucas formula.' Use the nutes per the manufacturer's mixing instructions.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

Can you do hempy in flood and drain? The flood and drain would be something i could build. Seems like a simple thing to build if you have the right peices

How would i go hydro not on dwc? :s


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

I really like the dwc idea.. And if it can work with the lucas formula id like to do it. Ive never had a power out in my lifetime longer then a hour. Like half and hour max

i was thinking just 1 large air stone in each reservoir

it would be better for me cuz i could jusy drain the sink and fill with the tap. It would work better for the enviroment that im in


like i can make sure with the temps, ppm, ph.. And lucas seems like itll work great.. Ive seen some dwc dnd results with the lucas and it looked like fire


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 18, 2012)

inlovewiththc said:


> Can you do hempy in flood and drain? The flood and drain would be something i could build. Seems like a simple thing to build if you have the right peices


Hempy is another kind of watering system. I don't understand what you're asking. 



> How would i go hydro not on dwc? :s


What?



inlovewiththc said:


> I really like the dwc idea.. And if it can work with the lucas formula id like to do it. Ive never had a power out in my lifetime longer then a hour. Like half and hour max
> 
> i was thinking just 1 large air stone in each reservoir
> 
> ...


You asked for my advice. I've given it to you. You can ignore it if you like. 

Good luck.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

Spoken like a true og


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

Yu kno to be honest. I think i have enough knowledge to make systems. Im guna play the grow game now and c which is best. Il post


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 18, 2012)

I've been growing dope for more than 25 years. I've been running hydro ops for 20 years and doing Sea of Green for about 17 years. If you can think of a way to fuck up a grow op, there's a pretty good chance I've committed that particular fuckup (and perhaps a few you haven't yet considered). 

If what you want to do is successfully grow dope, I can tell you how to do so frugally, with reasonable investment and how to avoid common pitfalls. Also, given I have had to live with running grow ops for a couple of decades now, I have a lot to say about ease of operating and maintaining them. There's no reason to work harder than you have to; systems can be designed to make your life easy- or hard. Systems can be designed to limit the potential for failures, or they can be (poorly) designed such that they are fiddly nuisances which are such a pain in the ass to run that they're likely to put you off growing dope for life. 

The '*Get a harvest every 2 weeks*' thread is the summation of everything I'd learned up to about 2007 or so. There's been a few tweaks to the process since, but nothing fundamental. Even the first post in that thread is a fairly good blueprint for how to crank out lots & lots of buds at reasonable expense in a fairly small area (about the size of a car parking space). 

If you genuinely want information or advice, I'm happy to provide them. However, if you have a preconceived notion of what you want to do or are looking for validation of something you're already doing, _*please *_don't waste my time- or yours. If what you have your mind set on is not supported by the facts, you're very likely not going to be happy with my comments.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

I get that ebb and flow probly is the best way to go. But i like dwc so i want to design a dwc sog. What would b the risks? Besides power failure?


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

It would be the same 2k w lights but in a 8x8 tent


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 18, 2012)

inlovewiththc said:


> I get that ebb and flow probly is the best way to go. But i like dwc so i want to design a dwc sog. What would b the risks? Besides power failure?


DWC is OK for small numbers of plants. SoG relies on a large number of small plants. A DWC SoG op would be complex and difficult to maintain. Complexity breeds problems and difficult maintenance leads to poor maintenance, which leads to failed grows. 

DWC does get more oxygen to the roots but the productivity difference between that & a flood system, especially when the potential for problems is considered, is negligible. 

Good luck.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

I would have thought a dwc was less work considering the fact that its just an air stone in a res.


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## Adrive (Nov 18, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> pH jumping up is usually a pretty reliable indicator of pathogen infection in the rootmass. 9.5 is out of the ballpark. Don't adjust pH of water before mixing with nutes. 5.5 is too low, in any instance. The magic number for pH in hydroponics is 5.8. Make sure your pH meter is not lying to you. Calibrate your pH meter before EACH use, employing reference standard 4.0 & 7.0 solutions. Colour-matching pH test kits are not suitable for hydroponics. If you don't have one, get a good pH meter. Eutech's meters are reliable and durable. Their pH Tester 10 is a good 'un.


I guess H2O2 will do the trick... Are you still putting 10 ml/ L of H2O2 in your reservoir when you make a new batch?

Although ph is high, growth isn't slowed, well at least not yet. Tips of new growth show no signs, look great, maybe it was my rockwool treatment


Any helpful tips on flushing or treating loose rockwool, I followed your info on treating the cubes and grodans with how to stabilize the ph of their product. Maybe I missed a step somewhere


I'm using my cloning tent for my seedlings... Temps 80 F +-2 40 RH, Do you think they need more humidity?


I have read all your threads for the past two years anonymously until the hurricane that tore threw the states... Rollitup and GrassCity, I finally built it.. Still making modifications, but I'm at the start of my SOG journey Al B style 


Bohdi seeds Goji OG, Head trip, Dream lotus, 
Rockwool mothers 400 watt HPS 2x4 tray 
4-2x4 trays with STG and 2" of rockwool under 2-1000 watt
Clone tent T5 6bulb 343 watt- ( I know it's to much compared to the 18 watt flouros )And all the accesories..40 mm of course


Plants I have growing now are to practice 40 mm cubes and loose rockwool and hopefully get some clone practice and flowering practice. No magic sauces or tricks up my sleeve Al B, plain and simple how you have outlined it....


Thanks a bunch for the fast track of knowledge from your 17 years of hard work it's almost not fair, but the information age is what we are living in.. Thanks Al B 

Have you visited Breedbay forum?


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 18, 2012)

inlovewiththc said:


> I would have thought a dwc was less work considering the fact that its just an air stone in a res.


What do you think is easier, turning a couple of valves to pump out a single res for a flood system, cleaning it & mixing up new sauce in it- or removing EACH plant from EACH bucket, dumping, cleaning & renewing the solns?

DWC is simply not practical for SoG.



Adrive said:


> I guess H2O2 will do the trick... Are you still putting 10 ml/ L of H2O2 in your reservoir when you make a new batch?


No, and I never have done that. The only recommendation I've ever given for 10ml/L of 50% grade H2O2 is as a once-off shock treatment for heavily pathogen loaded systems. 



> Although ph is high, growth isn't slowed, well at least not yet. Tips of new growth show no signs, look great, maybe it was my rockwool treatment


Unless you have a control plant that's running in the correct pH, you won't have much clue as to whether the one/s in the wrong pH are slow or not. 



> Any helpful tips on flushing or treating loose rockwool, I followed your info on treating the cubes and grodans with how to stabilize the ph of their product. Maybe I missed a step somewhere


Cubes should be soaked for 24hrs before use. However, it's messy & impractical to soak RW floc for a day before use. It's generally sufficient to top flood floc with plain water with 2x the volume of the pot of floc before plugging plants in it 



> I'm using my cloning tent for my seedlings... Temps 80 F +-2 40 RH, Do you think they need more humidity?


30-50% RH will do for seedlings. 



> I have read all your threads for the past two years anonymously until the hurricane that tore threw the states... Rollitup and GrassCity, I finally built it.. Still making modifications, but I'm at the start of my SOG journey Al B style


op... op... oppan Al B style! (somebody alert Mr Psy...  )



> Bohdi seeds Goji OG, Head trip, Dream lotus,
> Rockwool mothers 400 watt HPS 2x4 tray
> 4-2x4 trays with STG and 2" of rockwool under 2-1000 watt
> Clone tent T5 6bulb 343 watt- ( I know it's to much compared to the 18 watt flouros )And all the accesories..40 mm of course
> ...


Sounds good- and thanks for the thanks. 



> Have you visited Breedbay forum?


No, I haven't.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 18, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> What do you think is easier, turning a couple of valves to pump out a single res for a flood system, cleaning it & mixing up new sauce in it- or removing EACH plant from EACH bucket, dumping, cleaning & renewing the solns?
> 
> 
> DWC is simply not practical for SoG.


Nvmm! I c how the flood table would be less work. I dont want to use a valve because im in an apartment. So il use a siphon to the bathroom sink to drain the rez. i like the idea now of just using 1 big res for each 2 weeks.

like just 4 res only in the 8x8 tent 2K hps.

question is now what medium should i use and how many plants above the res?

im going to make a diy flood and drain. The goal is cut a p every 2 weeks


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 19, 2012)

If its possible id like to to harvest 35 cuts every 2 weeks (7x5 rows of clones on the flood table) . hoping for half o per clone. the flood and drain way. and 35 in a 3.5x3.5 area. ( guna need room to work in my tent too)


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## ringlead3r (Nov 19, 2012)

Al, i have just started your OP and ive noticed algae has started a little bit I put 1.7ml/l of H202 in the tank however it seems to be an on going process.
Ilm just guessing its because i dont have the flood trays covered with any plastic yet. mybe not applying H202 enough?


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 19, 2012)

ringlead3r said:


> Al, i have just started your OP and ive noticed algae has started a little bit I put 1.7ml/l of H202 in the tank however it seems to be an on going process. Ilm just guessing its because i dont have the flood trays covered with any plastic yet. mybe not applying H202 enough?


 Depends upon where the algae is forming; a bit of it on the media tops isn't really a big deal- gloppy handsful of it in the tanks is another story. Algae won't generally interfere with your plants (algae is a plant and is nibbling some of the food you're feeding your cannabis plants), but it is an ugly nuisance. Algae needs light and water to grow; block light and it will slow down considerably. Depriving algae of moisture will slow it down, too. Fully covering the media tops isn't a great idea as you'll form a moisture trap that can encourage really problematic microbes like pythium & fusarium. It takes a fairly stiff dose of H2O2 to kill algae; spraying it directly with a 10ml/L 50% grade H2O2 solution ought to do it. Also, flooding trays to only about 25mm will lessen the amount of moisture available on the media tops, making conditions there less hospitable for algae. If you have algae forming on the res tank walls, when you're changing nute solns, you can spray the walls with a VERY strong H2O2 soln (20ml 50% grade H2O2 in 100ml water with 1 drop (0.5ml) liquid dish soap as a wetting agent), rinse fully & drain before refilling tanks.


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## ringlead3r (Nov 19, 2012)

My problem is on the bottom of the fill tray due to the fact about 5% of water actually dont drain out algea will slowly build over 2weeks with barely anything in the res at the 2 week mark


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## doniawon (Nov 19, 2012)

ringlead3r said:


> My problem is on the bottom of the fill tray due to the fact about 5% of water actually dont drain out algea will slowly build over 2weeks with barely anything in the res at the 2 week mark


raise the back of your flood tray so all the water drains?


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 19, 2012)

ringlead3r said:


> My problem is on the bottom of the fill tray due to the fact about 5% of water actually dont drain out algea will slowly build over 2weeks with barely anything in the res at the 2 week mark


 Ah, OK. Assuming the tray is level and on a proper tray stand, which allows the middle of the tray to sag just a bit to permit proper drainage, you might consider replacing the tray fill/drain fittings with PPI style bits (see http://www.greensea-hydroponics.co.uk/shop/flood-drain-fittings.html), which fit very close to flush with the floor of the tray. Should solve the problem.


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 19, 2012)

doniawon said:


> raise the back of your flood tray so all the water drains?


 Square trays with centre drains (almost all of them) should be level. Some very large rectangular trays have fill/drain fittings on one end- those can be propped up about 13mm on the end opposite the fill/drain fittings to assure full drainage.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 19, 2012)

Hey al? Totaly missed my post lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 19, 2012)

Okay, this is as weird as it gets:


> Cops puzzled by 'free dope' left on roadside
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 from: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-20/free-dope/4381488


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 19, 2012)

inlovewiththc said:


> Hey al? Totaly missed my post lol


 Didn't miss it, ignored it. You don't need my help. You already know everything, don't you?


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 19, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Didn't miss it, ignored it. You don't need my help. You already know everything, don't you?


No not at all. Just dwc seems like itd b less makntence for me


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 19, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> Okay, this is as weird as it gets: from: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-11-20/free-dope/4381488


I wouldnt have told the cops about that, I would just grab it and run! ahahaha


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 19, 2012)

inlovewiththc said:


> No not at all. Just dwc seems like itd b less makntence for me


 It's much more difficult, but you do what you like.


The New Jim Jones said:


> I wouldnt have told the cops about that, I would just grab it and run! ahahaha


 Seriously. There's got to be an incredible story behind that. I'm thinking cheesed-off girlfriend/boyfriend/spouse/etc.


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 19, 2012)

Word. Well thnx to u i now know how to do sog hydro or hempy dwc and flood and drain. Il post my set up once i have it down


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 19, 2012)

you have to do something pretty drastic for someone close to you to just give it up for free! youd think they might just run away with it or sell it in bulk or just hide it, but give it away? I MEAN COME ON, AND it fell into the hands of the cops, what a waste


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 19, 2012)

Oh. It was a bag of leaf.


> A dopey idea: bags full of cannabis left on side of road Published: November 20, 2012 - 2:25PM Advertisement In what appears to have been a half-baked plan, three bags brimming with cannabis have been dumped on the side of a road on the NSW south coast with a sign advertising "free dope". Shoalhaven police posted pictures of the garbage bags and the sign, which said "Free Dope. Smoke. Mull up" accompanied by a drawing of a cannabis leaf, on their Facebook page yesterday. A local had reported seeing the bags on Bolong Road, Bomaderry, on Saturday morning. Officers inspected the bags and found 16 kilograms of cannabis leaf inside, police said. On their Facebook page, police said the leaf was of little value, as the head of the plant is sold. The cannabis will be destroyed. The local police were not immediately available to elaborate on the incident.


 from: http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/a-dopey-idea-bags-full-of-cannabis-left-on-side-of-road-20121120-29nh5.html Well, that was much ado about nothing. Someone ditched a bag of trimmings that would have been much better used in their compost pile. I feel ripped off!


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## inlovewiththc (Nov 19, 2012)

pftt i was so baked in my last posts and didnt even notice i put dwc........and man who ever dumped the leaves is pretty stupid. not really a good way to get rid of leaves + so heatscore


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## Land (Nov 20, 2012)

Hey Al I'm sure you never get tired of hearing this but all of your post, well maybe not all but most. Lol are vary instrumental to me to all the fuct heads out there. Just quick question what kind of ppm meter do you use or could you recommend one for me to buy that works well?

Thanks, again


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## The New Jim Jones (Nov 20, 2012)

Yeah I had a theory that no one would ever dispose of 90 kilograms of radankulous, If i were to have found that I would feel cheated, cheated out of something that never belonged to me


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## ringlead3r (Nov 20, 2012)

So this algea bugs me and im wondering how much effort I should put into getting it 100% gone because ive never had the problem before with the old op 

If a little bit wont effect end result mybe I can just go through a 2week cycle before trying to fix it

I feel like I should be sending a check for advice lol u make it so e z thanks


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 21, 2012)

Land said:


> Hey Al I'm sure you never get tired of hearing this but all of your post, well maybe not all but most. Lol are vary instrumental to me to all the fuct heads out there.


 Thanks. 


Land said:


> Just quick question what kind of ppm meter do you use or could you recommend one for me to buy that works well?


 Bluelab Truncheon. There is no substitute! http://www.getbluelab.com/shop/Bluelab+Truncheon%AE+Nutrient+Meter.html


The New Jim Jones said:


> Yeah I had a theory that no one would ever dispose of 90 kilograms of radankulous, If i were to have found that I would feel cheated, cheated out of something that never belonged to me


 I felt cheated by the news story. The first story I saw about it had the coppers saying it was $90,000 worth of buds. The 2nd story in the SMH had the photo of the bag contents, which took a lot of the cops' hype out of it and more or less revealed it to be a prank- and one that made the coppers look pretty hilarious. $90,000 for a few bags of leaf.   


ringlead3r said:


> So this algea bugs me and im wondering how much effort I should put into getting it 100% gone because ive never had the problem before with the old op If a little bit wont effect end result mybe I can just go through a 2week cycle before trying to fix it I feel like I should be sending a check for advice lol u make it so e z thanks


 Algae spores are ubiquitous. They are present nearly everywhere in the planet's habitable zones. Not unless you HEPA filter your air intake, sterilise your op fully & work in a cleansuit will you keep algae totally out of your op. Fortunately, it's not a huge deal. A little algae on media tops of flowering plants, which will be harvested in relatively short order, really won't hurt much. Blocking light to algae will slow it right down, a topical spray of strong H2O2 will wipe it out.


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## NewguyNL (Nov 21, 2012)

Al, have you changed frequency offlooding since you use STG loose fill?


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 21, 2012)

NewguyNL said:


> Al, have you changed frequency offlooding since you use STG loose fill?


 Not yet, although I think there may be room to do so when the plants are past wk5. STG LF is very hard to saturate and the plants may benefit from an additional flooding cycle in the middle of lights-on. Presently only flooding at the beginning of lights-on in the flowering area.


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## A Richard Head (Nov 21, 2012)

Al B. Fuct,

Great Great Great Info! It seems like you're the only one growing that doesn't sound like a witch doctor!

So I have a few topics that I'd like your opinion about. I'm going to jump right into the questions. How should a grower handle a couple hour power outage? If different, how should it be handled If the Op losses power for a few days? Obviously after a few days, if located in a populated area, scent can become a security risk. Should one invest in a home generator or a portable generator?

Talking about scent, do you still use Ozone Gens? There's scary info on the net about how unhealthy they are for you. Do you feel there's truth to the information out there? Or should we contribute the negativity to ignorance?

Internet and security, Is it worth the effort to hide your IP? I understand purchasing gear and supplies with cash and not driving your vehicle to the local grow shop. But does "Big Brother" really care about small time growers and are they tracking everyones IP's? I'm pretty sure most ISP delete your search information within 6 months to 1 year. I'm not sure how long forums like RIU or eCommerce sites store user data. Any ideas?

If you couldn't compost plant waste, what would be your next preferred method of disposal?

Do you have a red button for your Op? Or a destroy plan? You know, incase SHTF?

If someone was to mimic your flower setup in a 1.22mx1.83m room using four 560mm x 560mm trays (12-15 plants per tray), two cool tubes each McGyvered with Large Adjust-a-wings, one light per pair of trays. Do you think that is to tight of space? Would you run a pair of 400w or 600w or 1000w (assuming that RH and temps are in-check)? Or a combination (600w over trays 1 and 2, 1000w over trays 3 and 4)? Which leads me to ask, can cannabis get too much light? (take burning out of the equation)

12 clones = 3 mature Mums? (Take 15, expect tossing 3 weaklings)

Are you lighting your mums with a cool tube, reflector or bare bulb? Do you feel there is a better medium for your mums (just asking)?

Based off of your Op (currently If I recall, you average .5 to .75 ounces dry weight per plant) do you think you could change anything to get more weight? I think I know your position on CO2 (expense/hassle > ROI), no magic sauces or silly lighting tricks. Maybe more frequent waterings or longer flower time? What if a 1500w lamp existed? Excuse my ignorance If some of this sounds idiotic, I've never grown before. I'm actually staring at a dead house plant as I write this post.

If you could add one piece of equipment or change one thing, If the expense and/or hassle wasn't an issue, (and having a long legged, big tit, naked swedish model run your Op is not an option...sorry, I have the only one that was available lined up to run mine) what would it be?

It seems like the way to store buds for any length of time is in a large masonry jar? Do you have a preferred short-term/long-term storage method?

Do you have a pump for each air-stone? Have you ran your reservoirs without air-stones?

I know you're a sweet tooth #4 grower and have been for some time, do you have an opinion on Northern Lights or Bubblelicious in a SOG?

Last question, build it and they will come? Or build it to fulfill a consumer need?

Thanks in advance! I know... a lot of questions!!!


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## ringlead3r (Nov 22, 2012)

Al,

I know you buy a lot of rockwool cubes and I was wondering if you could point me to a website with good cubes at a good price


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## A Richard Head (Nov 24, 2012)

Either Al is on a vaca or I asked too many questions...


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 24, 2012)

A Richard Head said:


> Either Al is on a vaca or I asked too many questions...


I'm busy. I'll get to you when I have the time to do so.


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## hellraizer30 (Nov 24, 2012)

al b. Fuct said:


> i'm busy. I'll get to you when i have the time to do so.


lmfao.......


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## mountainboy (Nov 24, 2012)

Al, just trying to mimic your set up best as I can. I am changing my bulbs out after this run,and was curious what type 1000watt hps you run? 

I know you use 400hps for your mums, but as of now I have a 250watt MH. Just wanted to ask, what degree K is best for mums. I found a GE 250 that is 6000deg. K, with 19000 lumens, and another that is 4200deg. K and 23000 lumens. should I go for lumens or deg.K?

Thanks again for your help.


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## *BUDS (Nov 29, 2012)

> Do you have a red button for your Op? Or a destroy plan? You know, incase SHTF


Or an escape tunnel? lol


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## Al B. Fuct (Nov 29, 2012)

A Richard Head said:


> Al B. Fuct,
> 
> Great Great Great Info! It seems like you're the only one growing that doesn't sound like a witch doctor!


Thanks for that. I tend to avoid the terms oo ee oo ah ah ting tang walla walla bing bang, for reasons which should be self-evident. 



> So I have a few topics that I'd like your opinion about. I'm going to jump right into the questions.


OK


> How should a grower handle a couple hour power outage?


No problem for flood & drain watering systems. World of hurt if you're in DWC or aero. You need backup AC for DWC & aero systems. In terms of photoperiods, not a worry for plants on vegging cycle. For plants in flowering cycle, it's not a real big deal but a long night is preferred to lights going on & off.



> If different, how should it be handled If the Op losses power for a few days? Obviously after a few days, if located in a populated area, scent can become a security risk. Should one invest in a home generator or a portable generator?


A few days without power can be a real big problem. That long will tend to cause vegging mother plants go into flowering. Flowering plants will muddle through a few days without light, but humidity will spike up to 100% pretty fast without ventilation. 100% RH will cause bud rot (botryritis) and powdery mildew in nothing flat. A genset with enough grunt to run a couple kW of light will cost you several thousand bucks. Bear in mind that a 1000W HPS needs about 2kW for a brief period to start & warm up the lamp before it falls back to about 1100W. However, you might be able to save your bacon with a smaller, perhaps 1-2kW genset running some temporary fluoro lights for the mothers along with your ventilation and/or a dehumidifier. 



> Talking about scent, do you still use Ozone Gens? There's scary info on the net about how unhealthy they are for you. Do you feel there's truth to the information out there? Or should we contribute the negativity to ignorance?


I do run a UV ozone gen in the area outside of the grow op to handle scents from the bud dryer. You should not breathe O3 for extended periods of time- the main hazard is eye & lung irritation. I turn mine off when I'm going to be in the area for extended periods. 



> Internet and security, Is it worth the effort to hide your IP? I understand purchasing gear and supplies with cash and not driving your vehicle to the local grow shop. But does "Big Brother" really care about small time growers and are they tracking everyones IP's? I'm pretty sure most ISP delete your search information within 6 months to 1 year. I'm not sure how long forums like RIU or eCommerce sites store user data. Any ideas?


If you post cannabis pix, make sure you've stripped the EXIF data out of them. Phone cameras, notably those in iPhones, will append the phone user's name and other info like GPS coordinates into the images. Most cannabis board software will strip the EXIF data but you should remove it yourself to be certain. However, it's pretty unlikely that text that you post to cannabis boards will get you busted, at least as primary evidence. First, cops need a warrant to monitor your communications and even then, any good lawyer will tell you that an IP address is not a person. However, if you've attracted the attention of LEO by other means, you can bet that your data devices will be seized & searched. Use some commonsense and don't post direct evidence of business dealings around cannabis. SMS messaging is really pretty easy to eavesdrop upon. Be very wary of mobile phones. They are nifty little tracking devices that can reveal your location if wiretapped. 



> If you couldn't compost plant waste, what would be your next preferred method of disposal?


In-sink garbage disposers can be put to good use. Don't overload them, plugging up your plumbing with plant waste can out you when the plumber comes. You might dry plant trimmings & crunch the stuff up to reduce visual identifiability then distribute it amongst weeds & whatnot. Least preferable is disposal in common rubbish, but if you must, triple or quadruple bag it and use the same sort of bags you'd use for other rubbish. It's security by obscurity, though, which is never a good practise. 



> Do you have a red button for your Op? Or a destroy plan? You know, incase SHTF?


I do have a plan B, which for security reasons I can't discuss here. 



> If someone was to mimic your flower setup in a 1.22mx1.83m room using four 560mm x 560mm trays (12-15 plants per tray), two cool tubes each McGyvered with Large Adjust-a-wings, one light per pair of trays. Do you think that is to tight of space? Would you run a pair of 400w or 600w or 1000w (assuming that RH and temps are in-check)? Or a combination (600w over trays 1 and 2, 1000w over trays 3 and 4)? Which leads me to ask, can cannabis get too much light? (take burning out of the equation)


You could probably do those trays with a pair of 400HPS, one over each pair. 



> 12 clones = 3 mature Mums? (Take 15, expect tossing 3 weaklings)


Sounds about right. 



> Are you lighting your mums with a cool tube, reflector or bare bulb?


The light in the mother plant area is a 400HPS in a simple reflector. The exhaust fan for the mums is almost directly above it. 



> Do you feel there is a better medium for your mums (just asking)?


Rockwool floc works pretty well for the mums because they're under 24H light and do get big & thirsty especially near time to do a batch of cuttings. 



> Based off of your Op (currently If I recall, you average .5 to .75 ounces dry weight per plant) do you think you could change anything to get more weight? I think I know your position on CO2 (expense/hassle > ROI), no magic sauces or silly lighting tricks. Maybe more frequent waterings or longer flower time? What if a 1500w lamp existed? Excuse my ignorance If some of this sounds idiotic, I've never grown before. I'm actually staring at a dead house plant as I write this post.


If I really wanted to bump up production, I'd do CO2- probably good for about 15-20% uptick. More frequent watering invites problems if the plants can't suck it up. If power cost was not a consideration, I might put a 600 over trays 1 & 2 and 1000s over trays 3 & 4. Also would be good for about 15-20% over a pair of 1000s running the lot, but would really bump up the power cost. 


> If you could add one piece of equipment or change one thing, If the expense and/or hassle wasn't an issue, (and having a long legged, big tit, naked swedish model run your Op is not an option...sorry, I have the only one that was available lined up to run mine) what would it be?


I can't think of any single item that I'd add that I don't already have. 



> It seems like the way to store buds for any length of time is in a large masonry jar? Do you have a preferred short-term/long-term storage method?


Get a vacuum food sealer! Buds that are vacuum sealed and kept in a cool dark place will store a few years at full or damn near full potency. Vac sealed buds could be kept in a refrigerator at about 5C if you like. Don't put buds in a freezer.



> Do you have a pump for each air-stone?


I have dual-output air pumps, each output runs one bubble curtain. 



> Have you ran your reservoirs without air-stones?


No. Aeration not only dissolves O2 in the nute solns, it also stirs the tanks. 

Note- always put air pumps and air tubing above the level of the nute solutions in the tanks. If there's a power outage, water will siphon out into pumps & tubes put below that level. 



> I know you're a sweet tooth #4 grower and have been for some time, do you have an opinion on Northern Lights or Bubblelicious in a SOG?


I have grown NL in the past and it's a very good SoG performer. Haven't grown Bubblelicious & thus can't comment. 



> Last question, build it and they will come? Or build it to fulfill a consumer need?


Build your op to suit your own needs first. There's a pretty good chance you'll produce more than you can smoke. Vac seal your over-run and see what happens down the track. Bear in mind though that having pounds around for a long time isn't the best idea if things go badly. 



ringlead3r said:


> Al,
> 
> I know you buy a lot of rockwool cubes and I was wondering if you could point me to a website with good cubes at a good price


I have a wholesale account at a supplier of rockwooly sorts of stuff. I buy a 2250-count carton of Grodan MM40/40 wrapped cubes every few years. Can't really advise you on retail suppliers as such.



mountainboy said:


> Al, just trying to mimic your set up best as I can. I am changing my bulbs out after this run,and was curious what type 1000watt hps you run?
> 
> I know you use 400hps for your mums, but as of now I have a 250watt MH. Just wanted to ask, what degree K is best for mums. I found a GE 250 that is 6000deg. K, with 19000 lumens, and another that is 4200deg. K and 23000 lumens. should I go for lumens or deg.K?
> 
> Thanks again for your help.


You can use either a metal halide or an HPS for your mums. An HPS will cause stems to be a bit more elongated than MH, but that's just fine for mums from which you'll be cutting rather long clones. Lighting for mums is not that fiddly, don't stress too much about the different colour temps of MH lamps for vegging mums. You probably won't note any difference at all between a 6000K or a 4200K MH lamp. Luminous output is much more important in flowering than in vegging. 



*BUDS said:


> Or an escape tunnel? lol


Actually, I have an infinite improbability drive and occasionally turn into a whale or a potted plant at appropriate times.


----------



## mountainboy (Nov 30, 2012)

Al thanks for the MH info. I know your where answering alot of stuff ,but could I get the info on what brand 1000watt hps you use. Thanks.


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Nov 30, 2012)

mountainboy said:


> Al thanks for the MH info. I know your where answering a lot of stuff, but could I get the info on what brand 1000watt hps you use. Thanks.


Sorry, I missed that. I use GE Lucagrow HPS lamps. Lucagrow lamps maintain more of their initial luminous output over a standard 12 month service life than any others I've used. Very consistent quality over the years. I can run Lucagrows for 18 months if I want to. Have never had a total failure of a Lucagrow lamp.


----------



## mountainboy (Dec 2, 2012)

No need to apologize. Thank you for getting back with the info Al. I will order my new bulbs today.


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## klx (Dec 2, 2012)

G'day Al,

Great thread you have here and also your others, I have had a good look through them. I have been out of the game (and out of the country) for a number of years and off the boards since but all good things and all that, so am back and designing the new op and am leaning towards your setup, it looks much lower maintenance than the bucket systems I always used in the past but still cranks it out very nicely indeed.

I have a couple of Qs if that&#8217;s ok?

One thing I wanted to avoid this time if possible was bags of medium. I am done with clay pellets thats for sure. I was wondering have you ever experimented with a no medium solution...off the top of my head something like a smaller bowl with a hole in the middle of the base placed upside down inside your pots. Then placing the 40mm RW cube on the upside down bowl so the roots grow down through the hole and have some space to develop, out of the light in the gap below. Some sort of collar to support the plants&#8230;&#8230;or something similar. . It would obviously need more thought and the flooding frequency would need to be tweaked for individual trays etc but do you use medium purely to give the plants a stable base and for the redundancy of pump failure or are there other problems with a no medium setup? Do you see any other negatives to it if I could sort out some way to support the plants and put a redundant power supply in place for the pumps? I could go NFT but I like the simplicity of the F&D with limited plumbing and no small diameter tubing.

Regards odour control, humidity and exhausting. Let's say the lights are cooled separately and I have a speed controlled exhaust that runs at full speed above 26C and half speed below 24C in a negatively pressured room to ensure all air is being exhausted through a scrubber. Would that reduce the effectiveness of a dehumidifier a lot by pulling the nicely dehumidified air straight out?...what would you recommend in terms of having the air exhausted through a scrubber at all times but also keeping the humidity under control. Let&#8217;s say I am in the Sydney region in terms of humidity levels.

Other than that it looks like you have the setup pretty much dialed in so just finally, I nearly choked when I saw the &#8220;new&#8221; electricity prices in NSW. Pretty much doubled since I pulled down my last op in 06 and took off OS. I know a lot of the boys are running bridged meters but I am not keen to do that, so with the higher elec costs now do you think there is any value in digital 1000W ballasts, or the ROI still too long on the difference in the original purchase vs a 10% power saving even with the increases rates?

Sorry for the long winded post and cheers in advance for advice!


----------



## Al B. Fuct (Dec 7, 2012)

klx said:


> G'day Al,
> 
> Great thread you have here and also your others, I have had a good look through them. I have been out of the game (and out of the country) for a number of years and off the boards since but all good things and all that, so am back and designing the new op and am leaning towards your setup, it looks much lower maintenance than the bucket systems I always used in the past but still cranks it out very nicely indeed.


Welcome back!



> I have a couple of Qs if that&#8217;s ok?


Sure. 


> One thing I wanted to avoid this time if possible was bags of medium. I am done with clay pellets thats for sure. I was wondering have you ever experimented with a no medium solution...off the top of my head something like a smaller bowl with a hole in the middle of the base placed upside down inside your pots. Then placing the 40mm RW cube on the upside down bowl so the roots grow down through the hole and have some space to develop, out of the light in the gap below. Some sort of collar to support the plants&#8230;&#8230;or something similar. . It would obviously need more thought and the flooding frequency would need to be tweaked for individual trays etc but do you use medium purely to give the plants a stable base and for the redundancy of pump failure or are there other problems with a no medium setup? Do you see any other negatives to it if I could sort out some way to support the plants and put a redundant power supply in place for the pumps? I could go NFT but I like the simplicity of the F&D with limited plumbing and no small diameter tubing.


What you're proposing sounds like aero but without the water sprayers or nute soln with air stones in it. I don't think it'll work without active misting of the roots by some sort of system. 



> Regards odour control, humidity and exhausting. Let's say the lights are cooled separately and I have a speed controlled exhaust that runs at full speed above 26C and half speed below 24C in a negatively pressured room to ensure all air is being exhausted through a scrubber. Would that reduce the effectiveness of a dehumidifier a lot by pulling the nicely dehumidified air straight out?...what would you recommend in terms of having the air exhausted through a scrubber at all times but also keeping the humidity under control. Let&#8217;s say I am in the Sydney region in terms of humidity levels.


If your op is in a high humidity location, it's probably better to go with straight thermostatic control of the exhaust/intake fans and let a dehumidifier handle the RH during lights-off. Scents won't escape much during lights-off if your grow is reasonably well sealed.


> Other than that it looks like you have the setup pretty much dialed in so just finally, I nearly choked when I saw the &#8220;new&#8221; electricity prices in NSW. Pretty much doubled since I pulled down my last op in 06 and took off OS. I know a lot of the boys are running bridged meters but I am not keen to do that, so with the higher elec costs now do you think there is any value in digital 1000W ballasts, or the ROI still too long on the difference in the original purchase vs a 10% power saving even with the increases rates?


Yep, with power prices hovering around 24-27c/kWh, it's very tempting to bridge out a power meter. All I can say is DON'T DON'T DON'T. Bridging a power meter is extremely dangerous and is a very quick way to attract the attention of the electricity provider. If you bypass the power meter, your consumption will go to zero and the supplier will, without your knowledge, send out a tech to find out why your meter has failed. The techie will pop in a new meter and either find the bridge or, if you have hidden the bridge, discover by use of a clamp ammeter, that your wiring is still drawing current without a meter installed. In either case, you're busted.

If you connect the op to power before it hits the meter, you could conceivably use a contactor (relay) with the actuating coil connected to the 'legal,' post-metered supply such that when the post-metered supply is switched off, the contactor opens and interrupts unmetered power to your op. This would make it harder to find by random inspection, but still entails making connections to live wires. *I can't emphasise enough just how dangerous this is.* While this method of connection is harder to detect, all the techie has to do is put a clamp-type ammeter (amprobe) on the service drop and compare the current draw to that indicated by the meter- and boom, game over. S/he'll see more current draw on the amprobe than on the service meter. Mind, kWh meters don't indicate direct current draw, meaning it's not that easy to see a discrepancy, but that's still 'security by obscurity' which is by no means a concealment sufficient to keep you from going to the hoosegow. 

If you have off-peak power, which is priced much lower than domestic rate (7-9c/kWh), you could tap power post-meter but before the 'ripple control receiver' which is a switch that the supplier remotely controls, so they can shed load during peak usage hours. This is somewhat safer to do since the main switch for the residential service will shut off power for the purpose of making connections. However, it's easily detectable by anyone who looks in your breaker box. The off-peak service meter will still be spinning even when the ripple control receiver switch indicates that it is open (off-peak power disconnected)- and the jig is up.

In general, it is not a good idea to monkey around with mains AC supplies and I strongly recommend against it. 

As regards the power savings of electronic (digital) ballasts, the savings isn't usually quite 10%, usually closer to 5%. However, with the cost of power where it is, it may be economical to use them. If you do opt for electronic ballasts, buy a spare to keep on the shelf in case one fails- and they do fail at much greater rates than coil & core 'magnetic' ballasts. Service life of electronic ballasts tends to be 3-5 years (don't think I've ever seen one with more than a 5 year warranty); magnetics can go 10-20 years if the capacitor is replaced about every 5-7 years. Get a lux meter and make note of initial lamp brightness on installation of the gear and check the luminous intensity every few months. Re-lamp annually and recheck luminous intensity. If the capacitor is still OK, the intensity should remain the same as when you first installed the new gear. 

Rotsaruck!


----------



## klx (Dec 7, 2012)

Al B. Fuct said:


> What you're proposing sounds like aero but without the water sprayers or nute soln with air stones in it. I don't think it'll work without active misting of the roots by some sort of system.



Yes the aim is to minimise the bags of medium, if possible. Have been looking at some foam wholesalers and thinking some medium density foam may be an option. Will try a couple of things but if it has to be floc/perlite or similar solution so be it.





Al B. Fuct said:


> If your op is in a high humidity location, it's probably better to go with straight thermostatic control of the exhaust/intake fans and let a dehumidifier handle the RH during lights-off. Scents won't escape much during lights-off if your grow is reasonably well sealed.


Thanks, will start out with this and go from there.




Al B. Fuct said:


> Yep, with power prices hovering around 24-27c/kWh, it's very tempting to bridge out a power meter. All I can say is DON'T DON'T DON'T. Bridging a power meter is extremely dangerous and is a very quick way to attract the attention of the electricity provider. If you bypass the power meter, your consumption will go to zero and the supplier will, without your knowledge, send out a tech to find out why your meter has failed. The techie will pop in a new meter and either find the bridge or, if you have hidden the bridge, discover by use of a clamp ammeter, that your wiring is still drawing current without a meter installed. In either case, you're busted.
> 
> If you connect the op to power before it hits the meter, you could conceivably use a contactor (relay) with the actuating coil connected to the 'legal,' post-metered supply such that when the post-metered supply is switched off, the contactor opens and interrupts unmetered power to your op. This would make it harder to find by random inspection, but still entails making connections to live wires. _*I can't emphasise enough just how dangerous this is.*_ While this method of connection is harder to detect, all the techie has to do is put a clamp-type ammeter (amprobe) on the service drop and compare the current draw to that indicated by the meter- and boom, game over. S/he'll see more current draw on the amprobe than on the service meter. Mind, kWh meters don't indicate direct current draw, meaning it's not that easy to see a discrepancy, but that's still 'security by obscurity' which is by no means a concealment sufficient to keep you from going to the hoosegow.
> 
> ...


My brother in law is an electrician and is of the same opinion. I have been doing some ringing around and "off peak" is not the same for all utility companies....so yes I will just do my best to minimise the cost legally without sacrificing yield which would be false economy anyway. 



Al B. Fuct said:


> As regards the power savings of electronic (digital) ballasts, the savings isn't usually quite 10%, usually closer to 5%. However, with the cost of power where it is, it may be economical to use them. If you do opt for electronic ballasts, buy a spare to keep on the shelf in case one fails- and they do fail at much greater rates than coil & core 'magnetic' ballasts. Service life of electronic ballasts tends to be 3-5 years (don't think I've ever seen one with more than a 5 year warranty); magnetics can go 10-20 years if the capacitor is replaced about every 5-7 years. Get a lux meter and make note of initial lamp brightness on installation of the gear and check the luminous intensity every few months. Re-lamp annually and recheck luminous intensity. If the capacitor is still OK, the intensity should remain the same as when you first installed the new gear.
> 
> Rotsaruck!


Thanks, you've been very helpful.


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## ringlead3r (Dec 16, 2012)

Al,

If your heat mat is set to high would roots not grow towards the mat?


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## klx (Dec 21, 2012)

Hi Al,

Ok, what do you think about this:

Standard Ebb & Flo tray with a sheet of polystyrene (or similar) clamped to cover the entire top of tray (no light into tray) .
Holes cut in the polystyrene to take 4" or 5" (or even smaller?) neoprene collars.
Rooted clones straight out of an aero cloner into the collars, into the tray 12/12.
The collars support the plant while it is small, until the roots form a mat in the tray to support the plants when they are bigger. (maybe netpots with a collar would be better?)
Flood frequency will have to be trial and error but say flood 5 mins on / 55 mins off during lights on as a starting point.

Negatives:
Cannot move plants around once the roots mat.
Pump failure will be catastrophic. (could use 2 small pumps instead of 1 large per rez as redundancy?)
Getting the flooding right when plants are young may be challenging.

Positives:
No pots to fill or clean
No media, ever!!! 
Lots of oxygen to the roots
Less work and $$ overall.

Could it work do you think?

This guy did something similar but I would prefer a tray to fence posts - https://www.thcfarmer.com/community/threads/custom-medium-less-ebb-flow-grow-posts.20284/

Edit> Actually, it seems some people are way ahead of me... http://www.botanicare.com/Tray-Lids-P100.aspx


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## Julyhebe (Dec 22, 2012)

I'm new in Melbourne and looking to buy some, please help me out.


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## zem (Dec 23, 2012)

wow this thread is more than 1 year old now... thanks Al keep it up


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## mountainboy (Dec 24, 2012)

Hey Al, just wanted to stop by and wish you a Merry Christmas! Thanks for all the help!


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## Land (Jan 3, 2013)

> Originally Posted by Land
> Just quick question what kind of ppm meter do you use or could you recommend one for me to buy that works well?
> Bluelab Truncheon. There is no substitute! http://www.getbluelab.com/shop/Bluel...ent+Meter.html


Thank you for all your help Al B. 

Im only running two trays. Would it be ok to run pk 13/14 in weeks 5 through 8? 

Thanks in advance


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## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

Very long, very informative thread but I'm left with a question for Al or anyone else with a good answer. Is H2O2 capable of killing/ curing cyanobacteria ("brown slime algae")? I've been reading over the Heisenberg Tea thread and it implies that neither H2O2 or Chloramine are effective for treating this particular root problem in hydro. Like Al I'm a sterile rez guy so the thought of a chloramine/peroxide resistant root pathogen really scares me. Anyone defeated this slime using sterilizers or is the beneficial tea really the ONLY cure?


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Very long, very informative thread but I'm left with a question for Al or anyone else with a good answer. Is H2O2 capable of killing/ curing cyanobacteria ("brown slime algae")? I've been reading over the Heisenberg Tea thread and it implies that neither H2O2 or Chloramine are effective for treating this particular root problem in hydro. Like Al I'm a sterile rez guy so the thought of a chloramine/peroxide resistant root pathogen really scares me. Anyone defeated this slime using sterilizers or is the beneficial tea really the ONLY cure?


H202 will not cure it! That form of bacteria is deadly and yes i have had it! Last summer i got it in a ebb and grow during a hot
summer. The fill lines were the cause, with them laying under the lights baking  nothing worked tryed h202 and bleach still no
buano... So i started brewing hies tea and problem solved!

as a alternate to the tea im trying out pond zyme as its highly rec by superstoner. Very cheap and seems effective in killing
everything so far..


im sure al will have some thoughts to it but this is just my exp.


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## Krondizzel (Jan 4, 2013)

hellraizer30 said:


> H202 will not cure it! That form of bacteria is deadly and yes i have had it! Last summer i got it in a ebb and grow during a hot
> summer. The fill lines were the cause, with them laying under the lights baking  nothing worked tryed h202 and bleach still no
> buano... So i started brewing hies tea and problem solved!
> 
> ...


I'll keep that in mind. Haven't had this issue. Now I know the fix muahahaha.


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## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

hellraizer30 said:


> H202 will not cure it! That form of bacteria is deadly and yes i have had it! Last summer i got it in a ebb and grow during a hot
> summer. The fill lines were the cause, with them laying under the lights baking  nothing worked tryed h202 and bleach still no
> buano... So i started brewing hies tea and problem solved!
> 
> ...



Why the need for an alternative? Trying to prevent resistance or Heis-Tea stop working for you?


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## Krondizzel (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Why the need for an alternative? Trying to prevent resistance or Heis-Tea stop working for you?


I dunno about you, but.. I'm going with raizer advice on this. I call myself the hydroponic specialist, but... I learned a ton from that guy. Soak it up!


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## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

Krondizzel said:


> I dunno about you, but.. I'm going with raizer advice on this. I call myself the hydroponic specialist, but... I learned a ton from that guy. Soak it up!


Yup, that's why I'm asking questions. Would also like to hear Al's take on this.


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## Krondizzel (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Yup, that's why I'm asking questions. Would also like to hear Al's take on this.


Usually the info that I give, I can reference directly to one of the two of them saying it. They know their shit.


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## mountainboy (Jan 4, 2013)

Funny everyone seems to be thinking about h2o2...lol, I was jumping on to ask a question also. I have a UV water treatment unit for my homes water system (its well water). The unit is small and I was wondering if it would work to keep my rez clean. I could hook one up to a pump in my rez and just let it pump 24/7 recirculating the water in my rez. The only reason I wanted to try this is because the h2o2 is getting a bit pricey. I have a 50gal rez and I treat the water every other day with 250ml. of 30% h2o2. At 40.00 bucks a gal. The UV filter is 100.00 bucks and the bulbs are 30.00 but last a year or so in my house unit.


----------



## hellraizer30 (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Why the need for an alternative? Trying to prevent resistance or Heis-Tea stop working for you?


Heis tea didnt fail! Just always trying new stuff, helps me get a better understanding of what works.
and whats working for other folks.


----------



## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

hellraizer30 said:


> Heis tea didnt fail! Just always trying new stuff, helps me get a better understanding of what works.
> and whats working for other folks.



IF it's true that beneficials are the ONLY effective treatment against cyanobacterial brown slime then I say it's time to finally declare a "live" rez to be the winner in the age old debate of sterile VS bennies. Honestly makes me a little sick inside to think of putting live stuff in my Rez 

It really is a fuct world.....


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> IF it's true that beneficials are the ONLY effective treatment against cyanobacterial brown slime then I say it's time to finally declare a "live" rez to be the winner in the age old debate of sterile VS bennies. Honestly makes me a little sick inside to think of putting live stuff in my Rez
> 
> It really is a fuct world.....


Its good to learn option face, not saying you cant continue the h202 and if you see the start of slime start brewing!

to not jack ALs thread to much we could talk shop if you like! Just hit me up in pm or in my thread.


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## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

hellraizer30 said:


> Its good to learn option face, not saying you cant continue the h202 and if you see the start of slime start brewing!
> 
> to not jack ALs thread to much we could talk shop if you like! Just hit me up in pm or in my thread.



Thanks a lot HR, I may just do that but I think this thread is also an appropriate place to discuss this because Al is such a strong proponent for H2O2. Maybe he's got another solution we don't know of.......hopefully...


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## doniawon (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Thanks a lot HR, I may just do that but I think this thread is also an appropriate place to discuss this because Al is such a strong proponent for H2O2. Maybe he's got another solution we don't know of.......hopefully...


if your trying to use organics in your hydroponics? this is the wrong thread for you.. AL says dont do it. Organics have no place in most hydroponic systems. 

on the other hand if you want to try organic hydro. its recommended to use enyzmes like hygrozyme or pondzyme.. I also hear the Benificial bacteria would keep things in balance.. I have tried this with coco and it made me fucking nuts trying to keep things in check.. 

never been happier now using fully synthetic nutes and H2o2


----------



## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

doniawon said:


> if your trying to use organics in your hydroponics? this is the wrong thread for you.. AL says dont do it. Organics have no place in most hydroponic systems.
> 
> on the other hand if you want to try organic hydro. its recommended to use enyzmes like hygrozyme or pondzyme.. I also hear the Benificial bacteria would keep things in balance.. I have tried this with coco and it made me fucking nuts trying to keep things in check..
> 
> never been happier now using fully synthetic nutes and H2o2



I'm totally chemical as well and have no desire to go organic. This is about an H2O2 resistant/ Zone resistant problem. "Brown slime algae" I've had awesome success using DM Zone but some say it's no match for cyanobacteria.

What gave you the impression that I wanted to put organic nutes in my rez?


----------



## doniawon (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> I'm totally chemical as well and have no desire to go organic. This is about an H2O2 resistant/ Zone resistant problem. "Brown slime algae" I've had awesome success using DM Zone but some say it's no match for cyanobacteria.
> 
> What gave you the impression that I wanted to put organic nutes in my rez?


i was out of line .. my apologies..


----------



## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

Oh,no need for apologies. I appreciate your interest.


----------



## stormp (Jan 4, 2013)

mountainboy said:


> Funny everyone seems to be thinking about h2o2...lol, I was jumping on to ask a question also. I have a UV water treatment unit for my homes water system (its well water). The unit is small and I was wondering if it would work to keep my rez clean. I could hook one up to a pump in my rez and just let it pump 24/7 recirculating the water in my rez. The only reason I wanted to try this is because the h2o2 is getting a bit pricey. I have a 50gal rez and I treat the water every other day with 250ml. of 30% h2o2. At 40.00 bucks a gal. The UV filter is 100.00 bucks and the bulbs are 30.00 but last a year or so in my house unit.


Im new to hydro, but have many years of experience from fish tanks, so take this with a grain of salt.

The uv unit would work very well to keep the water in the res sterile, so its a great way to prevent problems and kill algae (including cyano) etc. in the water.
It will not do anything to any pathogen already established in the root zone (assuming flood and drain), for that you still need some kind of agent in the water.

I think you could easyly get away with running a uv unit instead of the maintenance dose of h2o2, if you keep an eye out for problems and use h2o2 to fix it when they show up.


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## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

stormp said:


> Im new to hydro, but have many years of experience from fish tanks, so take this with a grain of salt.
> 
> The uv unit would work very well to keep the water in the res sterile, so its a great way to prevent problems and kill algae (including cyano) etc. in the water.
> It will not do anything to any pathogen already established in the root zone (assuming flood and drain), for that you still need some kind of agent in the water.
> ...


Great advice for the most part but the cyanobacteria we're discussing is said to be resistant to peroxide, chlorine, and chloramines.


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## stormp (Jan 4, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Great advice for the most part but the cyanobacteria we're discussing is said to be resistant to peroxide, chlorine, and chloramines.


UV-C radiation will certainly kill cyano bacteria in the water that is passed through the uv filter. But as I said it wont do anything for the rest of the system.
In fish tanks this is often enough to get rid of cyano over time as the old heavy infestation dies of old age and the new smaller offspring is light enough to be sucked through the filter.
With ebb and flood however, you could have a cyano culture living happily in the root zone and never get in contact with the uv unit.

Cyano in fish tanks is a very old problem, try google for lots of tips and tricks.


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## facestabber (Jan 4, 2013)

stormp said:


> UV-C radiation will certainly kill cyano bacteria in the water that is passed through the uv filter. But as I said it wont do anything for the rest of the system.
> In fish tanks this is often enough to get rid of cyano over time as the old heavy infestation dies of old age and the new smaller offspring is light enough to be sucked through the filter.
> With ebb and flood however, you could have a cyano culture living happily in the root zone and never get in contact with the uv unit.
> 
> Cyano in fish tanks is a very old problem, try google for lots of tips and tricks.



Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately we ARE talking about curing existing root infection.

You're obviously very knowledgeable about fish tanks and UV sterilization so maybe you can answer a different question. Does the UV-C radiation have any effect on nutes?


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 5, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately we ARE talking about curing existing root infection.
> 
> You're obviously very knowledgeable about fish tanks and UV sterilization so maybe you can answer a different question. Does the UV-C radiation have any effect on nutes?



Yes it does! Using uv will distroy minirals in your water leading to iron deff!


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## stormp (Jan 5, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Yeah, yeah, yeah. Unfortunately we ARE talking about curing existing root infection.
> 
> You're obviously very knowledgeable about fish tanks and UV sterilization so maybe you can answer a different question. Does the UV-C radiation have any effect on nutes?


Well. To be polite:
You were talking about fighting existing pathogens while I was answering a question about replacing regular use of h2o2 with uv.



hellraizer30 said:


> Yes it does! Using uv will distroy minirals in your water leading to iron deff!


Yes, some reports of this occur every now and then.
Personally I have never experienced this problem, and my corals typically show me right away when something is wrong with the mineral balance (sensitive creatures, these little bitches complain about anything from micro nutrients to the neighbours being to loud Saturday night).

I dont think that with a normal uv filter sized for fish tank duty you would ever run into this problem, given that we change the entire reservoir so often.

Link to outside source:
http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.200401/msg00668.html


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## mountainboy (Jan 5, 2013)

stormp said:


> Im new to hydro, but have many years of experience from fish tanks, so take this with a grain of salt.
> 
> The uv unit would work very well to keep the water in the res sterile, so its a great way to prevent problems and kill algae (including cyano) etc. in the water.
> It will not do anything to any pathogen already established in the root zone (assuming flood and drain), for that you still need some kind of agent in the water.
> ...


Thank you for the response. I dont know why facestabber is jumping down you throat, your are responding to my post not his. I think what you said makes sense.
As far as effecting the nutes, I have no clue. I just dont understand how it could effect them,as it is not a physical filter. The water is just exposed to the light as it passes through a glass tubing.


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## stormp (Jan 5, 2013)

mountainboy said:


> Thank you for the response. I dont know why facestabber is jumping down you throat, your are responding to my post not his. I think what you said makes sense.
> As far as effecting the nutes, I have no clue. I just dont understand how it could effect them,as it is not a physical filter. The water is just exposed to the light as it passes through a glass tubing.


The theoretical possibility to lock out certain elements due to ionization is very real, but its a slow process.
Really what uv filters do in this regard is very similar to what h2o2 does, so I wouldn't worry about it.

Here is a lengthy read about the subject that also goes into detail with h2o2, chlorine and more. Just look at the first picture for easy to digest explanation if you don't want to read the whole thing 
http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/redox_potential.html


> Effect on plants:
> In a controlled test conducted with terrestrial plants; plants treated with magnetized water (basically Redox Balanced Water) reacted in a test, with a growth in the order of 20% to 40% bigger than the plants treated with regular water.
> While no test has been conducted with planted aquariums, it is not rocket science to draw conclusions from this study and apply this to a planted freshwater aquarium and the effect of Redox Balance on plant growth!


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## facestabber (Jan 5, 2013)

stormp said:


> Well. To be polite:
> You were talking about fighting existing pathogens while I was answering a question about replacing regular use of h2o2 with uv.
> 
> 
> ...



Sorry stormp if I came off as "mean" or whatever. Wasn't my intention, we're all big boys here


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## stormp (Jan 6, 2013)

facestabber said:


> Sorry stormp if I came off as "mean" or whatever. Wasn't my intention, we're all big boys here


No problem 
Now you keep asking those interesting questions. Its good for us to see more than one answer to these


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## tyler.durden (Jan 7, 2013)

Hey, Facestabber (lovely name, by the by )! FTIW, I used to do a recirc dwc and got the brown slime a few times, and I actually joined riu because of Heis' thread. Since then, I started doing sog f&d because of Al's success, and it is SO much easier than the dwc and much higher yielding than the big plants I was growing. While doing dwc, Heis' tea was amazingly effective, while h2o2 only slowed the slimes progress, even in high dosages. When I first started my sog f&d, I kept on with the tea and it worked great at first - the plants loved it and looked great! The problem came when it was time to clean the rezes. Holy shit, the fucking bio-gunk in the rezes was thick and really gross, and took forever to clean out completely. Since I've switched to h2o2 in the rezes, the plants still grew great and the tanks were gunk-free, and super easy to clean. h2o2 is a cost, but totally worth it imo, esp. if you're doing this for a living. Just my experience, hope it helps. Good luck!


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 7, 2013)

Strange i only get a bit of bio around my air stones! But i dont use the zho in my brewing.


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## facestabber (Jan 7, 2013)

tyler.durden said:


> Hey, Facestabber (lovely name, by the by )! FTIW, I used to do a recirc dwc and got the brown slime a few times, and I actually joined riu because of Heis' thread. Since then, I started doing sog f&d because of Al's success, and it is SO much easier than the dwc and much higher yielding than the big plants I was growing. While doing dwc, Heis' tea was amazingly effective, while h2o2 only slowed the slimes progress, even in high dosages. When I first started my sog f&d, I kept on with the tea and it worked great at first - the plants loved it and looked great! The problem came when it was time to clean the rezes. Holy shit, the fucking bio-gunk in the rezes was thick and really gross, and took forever to clean out completely. Since I've switched to h2o2 in the rezes, the plants still grew great and the tanks were gunk-free, and super easy to clean. h2o2 is a cost, but totally worth it imo, esp. if you're doing this for a living. Just my experience, hope it helps. Good luck!


Again, great advice but I'm looking for that sterile cure to brown slime (cyanobacteria). I'm a faithful user of DM Zone and sometimes H2O2 but I cannot honestly say either of them can CURE an existing problem and keep it at bay. Seems the benny camp has an answer in the heis tea. Does the sterile camp have a cure? Word on the street is that this stuff is peroxide/o2/chlorine/chloramine resistant.

I feel like this issue needs to be properly addressed because many growers including myself are die hard advocates of either bennies or sterilizers. I've argued with people that used bennies and urged them to go sterile right here on RIU. Was I naive to do so? Does sterile only work sometimes (unless cyanobacteria attacks)? If so I'm contemplating a total change in my methods.


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## Scroga (Jan 7, 2013)

i came to the conclusion from my ton of reading that i could just add worm castings to my dwc as a preventative...which 'they say' is better than a cure..so thats what i do...as well as 'inocculating' the root zone with worm castings when i transplant... i know you want sterile, i just want no problems...im lazy with rez change and havnt had problem.. touch weed..


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## tyler.durden (Jan 7, 2013)

hellraizer30 said:


> Strange i only get a bit of bio around my air stones! But i dont use the zho in my brewing.


Yeah, maybe the bio-gunk is mainly from the zho. Also, I don't cover my rezes per Al's advice and some light gets in there. h2o2 takes care of any algae now, though...



facestabber said:


> Again, great advice but I'm looking for that sterile cure to brown slime (cyanobacteria). I'm a faithful user of DM Zone and sometimes H2O2 but I cannot honestly say either of them can CURE an existing problem and keep it at bay. Seems the benny camp has an answer in the heis tea. Does the sterile camp have a cure? Word on the street is that this stuff is peroxide/o2/chlorine/chloramine resistant.
> 
> I feel like this issue needs to be properly addressed because many growers including myself are die hard advocates of either bennies or sterilizers. I've argued with people that used bennies and urged them to go sterile right here on RIU. Was I naive to do so? Does sterile only work sometimes (unless cyanobacteria attacks)? If so I'm contemplating a total change in my methods.


I see. If I got the cyanobacteria now, I'd probably change the rezes and add the tea for a couple of weeks to wipe it out, then go back to the h2o2 afterward. I've used everything trying to get rid of it and keep a sterile rez (physan 20, sm-90, h2o2 and bleach, etc.) nothing worked for me but the tea in those instances...


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## facestabber (Jan 7, 2013)

Exactly. The general consensus says "Heis-tea" is the only cure. You guys have no idea just how bad I want to find a sterile cure.
Root rot is a reoccurring topic on every cannabis forum I've ever been on. Hard for me to believe there's not a sterilizer/magic sauce that can be added to rez water that will kill EVERYTHING except our trees.
Products like Zone, H2O2, and bleach are SUPPOSED to do just that but don't.

NUTRIENT/ADDITIVE COMPANIES: You have a niche to fill and lot's of farmers lined up to give you their money for a product that works ALL of the time. Killing and controlling everything EXCEPT cyanobacteria brown slime isn't good enough.


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## ilikecheetoes (Jan 7, 2013)

interesting. I havent dealt with the slime since dumping RDWC for ebb/flow. I remember that crap though. physan seemed to kill it but at levels that did noticeable damage to the plants as well. I run sterile rez with bleach now but if I was to get hit with the slime I'd dump the bleach and run some Great White for a 2 week cycle along with a normal dose of H2O2 (i called them they said normal doses wont kill the benes). And then switch back to sterile as was mentioned above.


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## tenthirty (Jan 9, 2013)

Been there done that......
I ran a Heath Robinson flooded tube for about a year.
The only thing that would keep the slime at bay was the tea, or
UV sterilizer and H2O2 and even at that, if the slime got started on the roots, it could not be stopped, though you could drink from my rez.
Lota consolation in that.

So I went to the Fuct method, lets say half fuct once a month harvests in 4" rockwool block and haven't looked back.


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## hellraizer30 (Jan 9, 2013)

Most if not all my exp with brown/slime involved a ebb&grow system! Sinse i have moved to the fuct/tables,
the slime hasnt come back! Something about tables is almost slime proof! Although i still take steps I.E
brewing tea and testing pondzyme. H202 will work but its not a cure! Its more like puting it in time out!

now root rot is a complete different beast! I have fount with growdan its best to mix the loose fill with 20%
perlite or hydrotron to add to the drainage. Aiding in the ability to flood more and replace old water with
new and more oxygenated water. Thus solving most root rot for me


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## tallen (Jan 9, 2013)

hellraizer30 said:


> Most if not all my exp with brown/slime involved a ebb&grow system! Sinse i have moved to the fuct/tables,
> the slime hasnt come back! Something about tables is almost slime proof! Although i still take steps I.E
> brewing tea and testing pondzyme. H202 will work but its not a cure! Its more like puting it in time out!
> 
> ...


Good to hear, I'm switching from rdwc to tables because of repeated slimings. Almost got the titan but decided to go with the tables instead. Now I'm glad I did!!


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## Dtv211 (Jan 10, 2013)

WOW! Just got done reading all 156 pages of this thread... Keep the info coming, wanting to learn more! Thanks for the info!!


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## ringlead3r (Jan 10, 2013)

anyone here know how often you would flood medium grade perlite?


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## tyler.durden (Jan 11, 2013)

ringlead3r said:


> anyone here know how often you would flood medium grade perlite?


I use Krum course grade perlite, and it's the consistency of parking lot gravel. I use an inch of grodan rockwool mini cubes on the bottom of the pots to keep the perlite from falling out. For all plants under 6 weeks I water every 3 days, for plants older than that I flood every 2 days. I'd like to find a medium that I could water my 5.5 inch square pots every day (no hydroton, please), but with perlite it takes that long for the pots to get light enough to water again. When I try to water more often I've seen overwatering symptoms, so this works best for me. Good luck...


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## ringlead3r (Jan 11, 2013)

have you tried just putting hydroton on the bottom maybe than you'd be able to flood more due to the fact rockwool holds so much water


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## ringlead3r (Jan 11, 2013)

one last question is how many inches do you flood your perlite than


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## tyler.durden (Jan 11, 2013)

ringlead3r said:


> have you tried just putting hydroton on the bottom maybe than you'd be able to flood more due to the fact rockwool holds so much water


I tried that but the perlite kept coming through the hydroton, it got messy. Perlite holds a lot more water than people think...



ringlead3r said:


> one last question is how many inches do you flood your perlite than


One and a half inches, perlite really wicks the water up!


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## ilikecheetoes (Jan 11, 2013)

i flood every hour for about 4 minutes. Its about 2 or 3 inches up the 6inch pots. Straight perlite. I was using the Course stuff. Went to get more and they only had the small stuff. I actually like the small stuff better. but I havent gone to bud with it yet. i never had a problme with stuff coming out the holes in the bottom. Who cares about a few crumbs in the res anyway.


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## ringlead3r (Jan 12, 2013)

ok, im getting ready to throw a batch into the flower room, ive been watering 4 times a day 2-3 inch on a 6inch pot for 10mins so I'm thinking im going to knock it down to 1-2 times, however I cant even imagine only doing it 1 time every other day. Im watering 4 times a day right now and see no visual signs of overwatering. But I'm also runing straight krum grade perlite no rockwool to hold any water.

Thank You Both for your suggestions everything helps and of course I'll have to experiment a little on my own.

Seeing how I have 2 different totally different suggestions above does anyone else have another opinion. I know Al has this info somewhere on one of these threads it just takes soooo long to find it.


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## spzd (Jan 17, 2013)

Hey Al or anyone who knows the answer

A question about nute strength. From your Al B FAQt 



> Nutrient strength is measured by electrical conductivity (EC) of the soln, usually specified in ppm. I *run my flowering tanks at 1400*, my *mums get 1600-1800*.


And from this thread you say



Al B. Fuct said:


> 1100-1200 is fine, if a bit toward the strong end of the spectrum. Flushing is optional. I don't bother, *all my tanks run the same mix, 1000-1100ppm* @ 5.8. The best strains for SoG are predominantly indica hybrids- and there's lots of those around.


So what is the best nute strength?? I have read all the way through your 3 threads and have put together and tested a room. Everything is working beautifully. Before I crack these beans I want to be sure of this nute strength.


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## tyler.durden (Jan 18, 2013)

spzd said:


> Hey Al or anyone who knows the answer
> 
> A question about nute strength. From your Al B FAQt
> 
> ...


Al used to run his nutes hotter at about 1400, he scaled it back to 1000-1100 as I'm guessing the 1400pm was a little too hot. I run mine at 1000 (not counting the 170ppm tap water I start with). Al uses Canna nutes, I run Dutchmaster Gold line, both are two part nutes. I used to run GH 3 part, but almost always saw some deficiency. I'd say start out safe with 800-900ppm to see how your girls like it, then tweak up a little if needed. Underfed is easy to fix, overfed sucks. Of course, if you're starting from seed, wait until you have 3 sets of leaves before you add nutes, seedlings are easy to burn and kill. Good luck...


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## spzd (Jan 18, 2013)

Thanks td. I am going to use Canna as there is a distributor close by. I am going to attempt to duplicate Al's system as closely as I can, albeit on a smaller scale. Also thanks for the reminder when starting from seed. Cheers...


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## joe macclennan (Feb 2, 2013)

Hey Al, a few questions regarding sulfur burners. Sealed CO2 enriched Flower room 240 sq.ft. Six 18 inch wall mount fans and two 12 inch floor fans all oscillating on low speed most of the time. RH runs 40-60%. Two propane ventless wall heaters. My first question. Do I have to turn my wall heaters off when running sulfur burner?.Wouldnt vaporized sulfur be explosive? Especially when in contact with an open flame. Second question. How long and how frequent should I run sulfur burner.I do not have a tremendous problem with PM there is some here and there on top of the hydroton. I have a problem with mold growing on the ceiling I am in a building with a steel roof that is not vented properly and condensation builds up in the ceiling in cold weather. I hope to be in a different location next winter so just have to get thru till then. I am hoping the burner will help keep the mold down. Thanks for any advice, Joe


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## NewguyNL (Mar 12, 2013)

Hi Al, Have you ever thought about semi-automatic clones watering system? I have an idea of making it, but would like to ask you - what do you think about it? I'm thinking to put a absorbent mat under the clones and put under this mat few laces. Other end of laces will be submerged in reseroir. I am worried only about over watering of the cubes? have you tried it out? Regards


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## C. Duke (Nov 26, 2014)

Come back Al B Fuct!

You can't go on telling a good story for years, while putting up with and replying to continuous repeated questions from people who have not bothered to read the thread, and then stop posting without telling us the ending! Specifically how the 'Sure To Grow' is working for you.

I've read every post on all your threads.
I've sat threw all the talk about using Unobtanium (flytocel).
You've got me convinced about H202 instead of organic (not a small task).
You've convinced me to drop the bucket idea for F&D tables only.
You've probably saved me a bunch of money on Floro tubes.
You've probably saved me a bunch of headaches in regards to a bunch of stuff. (rising ph = pathogens, ph down, cloning, hps in mother room, size pots, 1000w better than multiple 600w, Canna nutes, etc.)

Questions:
1. Are you still using STG 1" cubes?
2. Have you tried the STG Loose Fill?
3. Have you tried their rooting clone blocks instead of Rockwool?
4. STG watering schedule for above products? 2x day flower, ??? for clones?
5. Does STG flow well threw your chipper? 

I'll assume that STG requires more watering of clones (if using their clone cubes) due to the bigger air pockets, and that it is not a wicking medium that holds water like Rockwool.

And I also want to thank you for forcing me to get acquainted with the metric system! After about 50 years, it's about time someone provided me with enough reason to do that beside Suzuki Motorcycles!

P.S. And THANKS for all the years you have put into writing this all down so others may learn!


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## C. Duke (Jun 17, 2015)

I guess Al B. Gone.

Anyway, I finally got 6 plants going. [Ca Legal grow with MMJ card].

I was going to replicate Al's setup, and had it all built & was about to go and get a selection of clones from some dispensaries when all hell broke loose. I have a crazy neighbor lady who must think I'm stealing her gas [LP] and called the gas co out to inspect my garage. I'm a plumber of 30 years experience and qualified to build nuclear power plants, and told the gas co idiot to go F-OFF and that there was no leak. "Come back tomorrow if you must look at it, but you get no admittance without 24 hour notice unless there is a REAL emergency." The little douche threatened to call the police, etc. He wound up F-ing off as I requested, and I wound up tearing down the setup before the cops came the next day. No cops ever showed up, and the gas co A-Hole never came back. I figure I destroyed about 100 hours of work setting up the op. Real pissed off at this point. 

I let everything calm down and went about my business as usual. Then a neighbor gave my GF a plant he was growing in his back yard, and it all started again. This time, I only set up one 3x3 table. Won't be a perpetual AL B. grow so long as I'm living here, but I will be using everything I learned from Al to do the small op. That's why I'm posting it here instead of starting my own thread. Thanks AL, wherever you are! 

I'm using expanded clay because I have 6 bags of it laying around. I want to try the STG cubes and or loose fill when it all runs out. I won't be shaking the plants to get as much clay balls back to be reused as I can. If it's stuck to the roots, it goes in the trash. I hope this will reduce the amount of cleaning I need to do to reuse some of the clay.

I took 9 clones off of the donated plant [strain unknown] with nice thick stems, and propagated them in a makeshift clone box I set up using some of the torn down panda film from the original op setup and a floro light. I followed Al's advice to the letter, and they began popping on day 7, and all but one popped by day 10. I cut them at 8" tall, and trimmed off all the lower stuff. I used rooting powder, and Growdan 1.5" rockwool cubes. None of the local shops had the ones Al uses that come with the wrapping. I think the ones I got are for seeds? Anyway, they take a little more watering than the others. Instead of just touching the corner to the water for a second, I had to touch the whole bottom for a second to last the whole 12 hours between watering. I used just plain water for the first 8 days, then added a weak mixture of CANNA Aqua [veg] nuts because they were turning yellow a little, and I figured it couldn't hurt since the roots had popped already. 

My Mistake #1.
I didn't have a PH tester when doing the clones. They wound up for two weeks being watered with alkaline solution so high, that it was above the color chart on the test strips I eventually got from Home Dp. I have a real PH tester ordered and on the way now. 

My Mistake #2.
After potting the plants, and filling the rez, I adjusted down the PH without checking first, and after putting in the CANNA Flora nutes. I forgot that the Canna nutes had stabilizers in them, and would bring down the PH by themselves a little. I used 1/4 cup of GH PH Down solution in 25-30 gallons of water with a PPM of 1100-1200. My water is 500 PPM out of the tap, so 11-1200 is a low #. Should be 1500 PPM. The PH soured down to below where the stupid little bottles color chart goes. It starts at 6.1, and I'm going for 5.8. TIP: You can go on line to find a better test strip PH chart than the one that comes on the little bottles. I figure I'm somewhere around 5.5 with what I wound up with. No big deal.

I also dumped about one gallon of the Aqua enriched water I was using with the clones into the rez. It brought up the PPM to where it floats between 1100 & 1200 PPM on my Bluelab Truncheon. Waste not, want not.

My Mistake #3.
I spent some time hooking up the overflow and drains for my 3x3 table under 400w HPS. I had the overflow set exactly at 1/2" below the Rockwool cubes in the 1 gal pots filled with expanded clay. Oooops! When I put the overflow tube back in the last time after cutting off another 1/4", I must not of stuck it in the bulkhead fitting far enough. The RW cubes got wet for 48 hours. Last night I corrected the overflow problem and broke out the tape measure and a unused cube. I also dug down to see how the roots were doing in one pot, and they are going crazy! Yippieeee!!! 

The potted clones are STOUT! Leaves are sticking straight out to the sides, no wilting, roots taking off like a rocket. In the next couple days I'm anticipating seeing some good growth out of them. 

This is where I should be adding some laughing gif's, but it cost me $10 USD so it ain't that funny. I took my GF to the local dispensary the other day, and had her pick up their "best" clone. Hahaha, sooo sad looking. I've seen happier sprigs of parsley next to my burger at Denny's. It's in one of the cubes Al uses, and it was SOAKING wet! The stem is as small as a # 14 wire, and the roots are so small that they are almost invisible. Only way I could even see them is because they propagated it on a flat surface, and they were all matted down up on the bottom of the dripping wet cube. It may survive, or it may be added to the compost bin? After 48 hours, at least it don't look any worse than when we got it. 

This is my first Hydro grow. Thanks to Al's no nonsense threads, I can at least figure out when I screwed up before it causes damage to the plants. At least I have so far. It's really pretty simple this way. Follow the rules as listed by Al, and bad shart shouldn't happen. I will have to deal with heat issues since I'm only using my mother light 400w, and not my cook tube 100's due to the decreased space. I picked up a nice little portable AC unit, and redesigned it to act as a dual tube unit, but I never got the 240 run down to the grow area so I can use it. The crazy paranoid hunt neighbor lady makes that task impossible. It would involve construction noises like drilling joists, etc, to run the #10 wire, and I can't risk that after what's already happened, even though it's 100% legal now. I'll have to work around it with improved ventilation.

I'm running a 4" fan in the 3x4x9 area. I also have a couple 100mm pie fan [computer fans] running 24/7 to keep a negative pressure in the small space. The pie fans are connected to the duct with a y before going into the 10" carbon filter. At the top, I have two dryer vent dampener [draft blockers] set up so that when the thermostat starts the 4" fan, the pie fan one closes. When only the pie fan is on, the 4" fan dampener closes, and all the air is sent threw the over sized carbon filter. The 4" fan is wrapped up in an old sleeping bag, and insulation to quiet it down, and it runs threw a fan speed controller at about 1/2 power so the woosh sound is not so loud. The filter is enclosed in a 3x3x9 plastic air dumping enclosure I made out of panda film plastic. This then goes into a false wall I made that carries the used hot air up to the front of the space where it can leave the garage. I turned my work bench in the front of the garage [where people can see when door is open] into a air intake duct. I blocked up the front of the bottom bench with cardboard boxes. I just the face of the boxes stapled together so they still look like regular boxes being stored under the bench. The bench is right next to the door, and should get enough fresh air from down low. I hope. It's not ideal, but it's all I got. The front of the garage will mix some intake with exhaust, but I can't help that without causing obvious problems. 

I'll update from time to time.


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## C. Duke (Jun 17, 2015)

^^^^ Edit

Not "cook tube 100's" I meant to write "Cool Tube 1000's. The 1000w cool tubes I can't use because I don't have enough power to run even one in the garage with the other stuff going on the 15 amp breaker.


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## 2Hearts (Jun 17, 2015)

Al B Fuct is still alive...wow!

If i may ask of your hounorablness a question and beg of your pardon for its triviality or if it is in one of your previous posts and i missed it.

I tried to order up H2O2 from hydro store and due to some new terroist law or somthing it wasnt available. I seen in my local pharmacy they had 6% H202 but with two added ingredients - some type of Potassium which i fathomed was for ph buffering and Phenacetin which seemed to act as a stabalizer/preservative.

This was through a lot of reading and being a noob what do i know, but most threads seemed to condone the use of this carcinogenic chemical that kills rats in large doses . Until i hit on one thread where some science dude was saying its safe and only miniscule amounts are actually used and totally plant safe.

This was like one thread saying yes and a thousond saying no but being the internet im inclined to believe that one guy with dubious credentials over the everyone else.

I will source some decent marijuana grade H202 but it did make me scratch my head once or twice over wether this stuff is kosher or a indiscriminate plant killer.

As always your imparted wisdom shall lead to my heart felt thanks, potential gains and finally world domination (which i think is a fair trade).


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## C. Duke (Jun 18, 2015)

"_*Al B Fuct is still alive...wow!"
*_
The last post I could find by Al, was back on Dec 7, 2012. I hope he's still alive and kicking! 

You can get good [not the Chinese crap] H202 at 35% food grade here in the US. Can't get 50%. I don't know about the UK. I wound up with a couple gallons of some stuff from my local hydro store [Mad Farmer Oxygenator http://www.madfarmerproducts.com/2015_site/product-labels/oxygenator-label.jpg ] that claims to be 35%, and comes with no mixing instructions. When that's gone, I'll order the real stuff without the fancy label and just pay for shipping.


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## potroastV2 (Jun 18, 2015)

Thank you C. Duke for answering 2hearts question. Welcome to Rollitup, you'll fit in well around here. You should use your previous post as a first post in your Grow Journal, and then you can add updates to it.

Yes, unfortunately our good friend Al B. Fuct has not been active here recently. He is one of our most prolific teachers, and his content here is invaluable. I talk to him occasionally, he is busy teaching the hyenas how to laugh.


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## C. Duke (Jun 18, 2015)

rollitup said:


> Yes, unfortunately our good friend Al B. Fuct has not been active here recently. He is one of our most prolific teachers, and his content here is invaluable. I talk to him occasionally, he is busy teaching the hyenas how to laugh.



Good to hear he's still alive, and I hope the "Hyenas" aren't prison guards! Haha.
Do you know if he's still using the 1" STG Hail cubes, or if he's tried using the STG loose fill?


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## 2Hearts (Jun 18, 2015)

rollitup said:


> Thank you C. Duke for answering 2hearts question. Welcome to Rollitup, you'll fit in well around here. You should use your previous post as a first post in your Grow Journal, and then you can add updates to it.
> 
> Yes, unfortunately our good friend Al B. Fuct has not been active here recently. He is one of our most prolific teachers, and his content here is invaluable. I talk to him occasionally, he is busy teaching the hyenas how to laugh.


My bad Potroast, i just was like wow Als back when i saw this thread open and after scrolling back two pages there he was making a post. I never checked the dates and now am wondering why this dude has posted on such an old thread.

Not to be a douche but he didnt answer my question as it was about 'Phenacetin' not just obtaining suitable Mary J grade H2O2 which i will obtain soon. 

Its kind of a redundant question and Phenacetin is less used in the US thanks to FDA laws etc but popular here. Just wondering if my drug store H2O2 is safe as way cheaper and hey its like five steps away from my house.

But hey its cool ill try some against one without.

Thanks guys


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## C. Duke (Jun 18, 2015)

2Hearts said:


> I never checked the dates and now am wondering why this dude has posted on such an old thread.


Cuz I would like to know how it went for Al with the STG products he just started using about the time he stopped posting, and it's as valid of a post today as the original thread about harvesting every two weeks.

I can't comment on "Phenacetin" as I have never even heard of the stuff. Personally, I'll just stick to what we all know works, H202, so long as it's available. I'm interested to hear what you come up with in a side by side comparison.


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## Alby Fuct (May 18, 2020)

C. Duke said:


> "_*Al B Fuct is still alive...wow!"*_
> 
> The last post I could find by Al, was back on Dec 7, 2012. I hope he's still alive and kicking!
> 
> You can get good [not the Chinese crap] H202 at 35% food grade here in the US. Can't get 50%. I don't know about the UK. I wound up with a couple gallons of some stuff from my local hydro store [Mad Farmer Oxygenator http://www.madfarmerproducts.com/2015_site/product-labels/oxygenator-label.jpg ] that claims to be 35%, and comes with no mixing instructions. When that's gone, I'll order the real stuff without the fancy label and just pay for shipping.


Alive, kicking, but no longer growing. Dec 2012 was not the best month in my life, but not a big deal in the end..


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## potroastV2 (May 18, 2020)

So happy to see you back Bro! 

Here he is folks, The Legend has returned.


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 25, 2020)

Mr Fuct inspired a generation of growers. His knowledge and experience, journaled and detailed for those hungry for good growing information. 

His bullshit detector is among the worlds best, his wit sharper than your cloning scapel and his use of h2o2 will be told for eons to come.

Here's to Al B, thanks for your time mate. I would't know half of what I do without you putting in the effort you do.

Shame you're no longer growing, I really hope you didn't get busted.


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## Alby Fuct (Aug 25, 2020)

er... wow, thanks!

As a matter of fact, I did get busted. I had always made it a rule not to have anything to do with people who did drugs other then weed, but a person who was weed-total when we met got sucked into meth a few years later. Shit does awful things to you, not the least of which is utterly fucking your judgement. Clown got busted dealing meth and gave me up to save his own scrawny ass. In the end I got a 2 year good behaviour bond. No fine, no jail if no legal trouble for 2 years. Naturally, the op went to the tip & the cops got all my weed. Bond ended 5 years ago. But I still really would like a joint. #sigh


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## LostInSpace... (Aug 25, 2020)

Thats fucked up brother! What the fuck is with all the weak cunts around these days?!?!?! Rule #1 DONT FUCKING TALK TO POLICE!

Keep your head up mate, it'll be legal here soon enough. Then you can take on some coushy consoltant type role overseeing a warehouse size grow....or go back to bedroom op?


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