# LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow



## pr0fesseur (Aug 15, 2010)

So when i decided to grow i started with a 400W hps and MH conversion bulb. I put up my tent and it was problem after problem. With the generous help from the people here i decided to throw away my setup and start from scratch. I purchased the Quantum Badboy 8 lamp T5. I started with the standard 6500k bulbs with some success. I wanted to buy an LED light but didnt have the money. So... i was at my buddies house and he has a LARGE aquarium and he showed me his bulbs..it clicked.. corals need light too and his lights produced the EXACT spectrum corals need to live and are capable of penetrating 3'+ of water. well corals and plants are very similar as they use the EXACT same light spectrum. Digging deeper i found bulbs that produce 410-460nm and 620-660 nm light.. That is also Exactly what LEDs put out..now putting one plus one together i decided to do a small test.. i bought 2 2' t5 lights ATI AND UVL Blue plus and Super Actinic. Explosive growth followed. i couldent believe my eyes. I was told on 4 different forums that actinic bulbs DO NOT WORK FOR plants boy were they really wrong!. i ahve since gone 100% T5 with various bulbs producing only yhe light spectrum that plants need. As you can see my plants are doing AMAZING for being grown with Actinic bulbs.2 of my bulbs are missing as they were broken upon arrrival. I will be changing out some of the blue bulbs with the deep red ones i found for flowering..they produce ONLY 630-660nm light. no other spectrum so i get 100% PAR. top that with MH...now i know what your thinking these lights are not bright at all... well its not about lumens.the human eye response isphotosynthetic is , so your eyes do not see ALL the light these bulbs output. hardcore believers will flame me but let the math and the facts be known.HPS BULBS View attachment 1101469 Anyone notice a pattern here???? Lumens are not the ending factor to bud growth or you could not grow with LED. my sample grow i netted 1oz on a plant with only 116w. If your still in disbelief consider this, chect the spectrum charts for your coveted 3000k bulbs and overlay it with your chlorophyll response charts.. youll notice MOST of the light these bulbs prodice is outside the chloraphyll A+B peaks... now place the spectrums of my lights and overlay them...100% match.. seems to me im doing something right?


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## 9867mike777 (Aug 15, 2010)

Where do you get "Super Actinic" bulbs?


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## Wudaheo (Aug 15, 2010)

From looking at that chart.. Instead of paying $20ea for the actinic bulbs which i think are only around 400-600nm wavelength .. wouldn't it be cheaper to get just to get the $7ea full spectrum t5 bulbs since it has the blue & red spectrum that plants mostly need?


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 16, 2010)

Ok lets do some math shall we? View attachment 1102455 here is two bulbs a common GE gow bulb and EYE hortilux MH bulb. now lets discuss what were looking at. You see the peaks in the 500 range? plants are NOT sensitive to green or yellow light spectrum so thats wasted lumens. Now those peaks are the percentage of light output at that spectrum. based on that analysis a LARGE majority of light is wasted $$$ wasted on unnecessary lumens. now look at the actinic bulbs.View attachment 1102486 Now do we see where im going with this?  notice that any light that is output in the 480 to 600nm is pretty much wasted light? nuff said.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 16, 2010)

9867mike777 said:


> Where do you get "Super Actinic" bulbs?


 ever heard of google?


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 16, 2010)

i purchased the following...
UVL Red sun 630nm
UVL 454nm
UVL Super Actinic peaks at 420nm
ATI Pro Color 660nm
KorallenZucht peaks at 630 and 440nm
i got all my bulbs from various aquarium supply stores. These bulbs are designed to supply hardbody and softbody corals with sunlight in the correct spectrum AND penetrate water up to 5' deep...these bulbs have been on the market for longer than any "grow" bulbs and have more worldwide research put into them. if you have any doubts read about PUR and PAR values and how these lights can provide 90-100% of the light plants need..without wasting light on the "yellow" spectrums. corals like plants use sunlight to provide energy, and grow.


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## Magnificient (Aug 17, 2010)

A very impressive post. Here's some rep for your thoroughness.


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## RobertInAz (Aug 17, 2010)

I'm way impressed. Are the fixtures and/or bulbs either HO or VHO? And how long have you been using these lights?


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 17, 2010)

all these bulbs are ho.. vho bulbs are actually LESS efficient and $ for $ not worth it. i shouldent need to post proof but can if need be...VHO bulbs are just overdriven HO bulbs and you can overdrive all these bulbs with an ATI ballast....ask for links if needed.


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## victhaog (Aug 17, 2010)

impressive.....this is a new type of grow for me to see.... +rep my friend


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## Wudaheo (Aug 17, 2010)

Keep us updated with the grow. From my experience.. I disagree with using actinic lighting because it cost 3x more for the bulbs and your results would no better then standard bulbs. I used my t5 from my mini reef tank before with actinics/aqua blue+. It did okay but 6500k bulbs did better during veg stage.

btw not all corals are the same. Only some corals benefit from actinic lighting and the corals that do need lighting grow faster under 6000k daylight bulbs but it looks ugly.. So most people use actinic for aesthetic and not their main light source.


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## RobertInAz (Aug 18, 2010)

Hi Professeur,
I'm thinking of trying your system ... do you have any thoughts on whether or not a couple of 4 tube x 48" Bad Bays are a better deal at $285 than the same thing in a Sun Blaze for $220?
Thanks again, Robert


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## Wudaheo (Aug 19, 2010)

> Hi Professeur,
> I'm thinking of trying your system ... do you have any thoughts on whether or not a couple of 4 tube x 48" Bad Bays are a better deal at $285 than the same thing in a Sun Blaze for $220?
> Thanks again, Robert



If you want similar design to the quantum badboys you can get the 6 bulb htg slimstar for $210 w/bulbs shipped but has 1yr warrantly. The sun blaze doesn't have individual reflectors but has 5yr warranty and they really quick on replacements. Not sure about the quantum warranty since they seem like a new company?


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## RobertInAz (Aug 19, 2010)

Hi Wudaheo,
Thanks for the info. I've been researching the aquarium bulbs that the Professeur mentioned, but there doesn't seem to be many people who have used them, but apparently you have. Why do you say that "your results would be no better than standard bulbs"? Did you grow a crop with them and also a crop with T5 units regular bulbs?
Thanks again, Bob


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## Wudaheo (Aug 20, 2010)

RobertInAz said:


> Hi Wudaheo,
> Thanks for the info. I've been researching the aquarium bulbs that the Professeur mentioned, but there doesn't seem to be many people who have used them, but apparently you have. Why do you say that "your results would be no better than standard bulbs"? Did you grow a crop with them and also a crop with T5 units regular bulbs?
> Thanks again, Bob


I was using giesemann T5 HO actinics+ during vegg stage before but not for entire stage. If you want to try it out note there are several different types of actinic bulbs. I believe the pure actinic 03 have very low intensity so don't get that. Get the ones that are mixed like actinic+, actinic white, super actinic..etc. But i still think its its waste of money. If actinics were that useful for plants lots of company's would relabel the reef bulbs as plant bulbs right? I'm sure there's a lot more people into growing plants indoors then people with a plant/reef tank. You will do fine with t5ho bulbs like spectralux by sunlight supply. 

In the end its all about what you use for flowering to get the big buds right??


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## RobertInAz (Aug 20, 2010)

Thanks again, Wudaheo, for your wise counsel. I'll give them a try and report back.
All the best, Bob


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## Lightworker (Aug 20, 2010)

This is gonna be a hot thread indeed!


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## RobertInAz (Aug 20, 2010)

Re: _In the end its all about what you use for flowering to get the big buds right??, _I was thinking that if the actinic pure blue spectrum bulbs worked for the veg stage, then the Red Sun pure red spectrum bulbs would work for the flowering stage, using the Professeur's same logic.


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## RobertInAz (Aug 21, 2010)

Hey Professeur,
You still here? What are your thoughts re: what Wudaheo said about mixed vs. pure actinic? And about the fact that if these actinic bulbs grow better than regular T5s, they would have been used long before now? Thanx again, Bob


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## RobertInAz (Aug 21, 2010)

You know, I just smoked a little bowl and i was thinking about this and I had one of those thoughts that you sometimes get when you're stoned and you figure that later you'll see -- in the clear logic of the unstoned state -- that the thought you had was retarded. But I'm going to put it out here anyway, and hopefully we're all about equally stoned and it won't sound stupid. At any rate, somewhere here in the Forum one of the experts was saying that plants use light spectra in the blue and red zones, and the spectrum that they don't use is the green, hence their green color. They absorb everything except the green, which they reflect, which is why we can see it. (My girlfriend just walked by with no cloths on. She says I shouldn't get stoned today since we have things to do, but I figure that I can do both. She also says I shouldn't get stoned since it makes me forgetful and I lose my focus and train of thought, but that's ridiculous.)
Now, what was I talking about? Oh, yeah,... I was thinking about this: if plants only reflect green, what would happen if you had one of the Professeur's pure blue bulbs, turned all other lights out, and then turned the blue one on. Would you be able to see the plants?
Anyway, with a naked girl in the room I just decided that this idea no longer has any interest for me, but I've pretty much typed the whole thing so I might as well post it.
All the best, Bob


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 12, 2010)

thanks for the rep im suprised i havent had more views.. im trying to get the best $ for your effort here.. i understand people like the MH and HPS.. but the math just doesent add up for using these bulbs. The heap output and cooling for those bulbs is still greater than min wth the same results.. I just got back from a 2 week trip and my babies were covered in mites...i had no choce but to use "safer spray" wait a day than give my babies a shower...they just started flowering this week...ill post an update shortly.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 12, 2010)

RobertInAz said:


> You know, I just smoked a little bowl and i was thinking about this and I had one of those thoughts that you sometimes get when you're stoned and you figure that later you'll see -- in the clear logic of the unstoned state -- that the thought you had was retarded. But I'm going to put it out here anyway, and hopefully we're all about equally stoned and it won't sound stupid. At any rate, somewhere here in the Forum one of the experts was saying that plants use light spectra in the blue and red zones, and the spectrum that they don't use is the green, hence their green color. They absorb everything except the green, which they reflect, which is why we can see it. (My girlfriend just walked by with no cloths on. She says I shouldn't get stoned today since we have things to do, but I figure that I can do both. She also says I shouldn't get stoned since it makes me forgetful and I lose my focus and train of thought, but that's ridiculous.)
> Now, what was I talking about? Oh, yeah,... I was thinking about this: if plants only reflect green, what would happen if you had one of the Professeur's pure blue bulbs, turned all other lights out, and then turned the blue one on. Would you be able to see the plants?
> Anyway, with a naked girl in the room I just decided that this idea no longer has any interest for me, but I've pretty much typed the whole thing so I might as well post it.
> All the best, Bob


I have the same problem with the naked girlfriend not allowing to ton concentrate.. but turn on the all blue bulbs and it does mess with the eyes a bit...its like looking at colors under blacklight to be honest.. im still trying to find more "procolor" bulbs by ati which are the red ones. they discontinued them because people dont like the color but i do cause they are 650-670nm


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 12, 2010)

Wudaheo said:


> I was using giesemann T5 HO actinics+ during vegg stage before but not for entire stage. If you want to try it out note there are several different types of actinic bulbs. I believe the pure actinic 03 have very low intensity so don't get that. Get the ones that are mixed like actinic+, actinic white, super actinic..etc. But i still think its its waste of money. If actinics were that useful for plants lots of company's would relabel the reef bulbs as plant bulbs right? I'm sure there's a lot more people into growing plants indoors then people with a plant/reef tank. You will do fine with t5ho bulbs like spectralux by sunlight supply.
> 
> In the end its all about what you use for flowering to get the big buds right??


You CANNOT use actinics alone and i would not suggest it.. if you actually read all of my posts im using the bulbs to supplement each other. im looking to fulfill the plants spectrum requirements without using wasted lumens.. this is about filling the gap between HID and LED for ROI (return on investment) for the laymen. Bud size is NOT dependent on one factor alone and my methods would NEVER use any one set of bulb type.. This is also a work in progress, you must understand im using bulbs that meet the standards of one type of animal for plants. LED's have proven viability HID's IMHO are great but convert energy to HEAT rather than lumens.. so im trying to get the Most PAR and PUR out of my setup. I must dissagree about more people using grow lights than aquarium lights.. it is only because of the aquarium people that spetralux bulbs even exist.. these companies have been producing aquarium bulbs for over 25 years.. FAR longer than growing with Fluoro have been considered. please only back your opinions with real facts, as i have. Spreading disinformation is worse than lying.. If you only used Actinics you DID NOT supply the plants with the light they require through out their life.. plants need both spectrums of light..both 410-460nm and 600-700nm. your observations are only based on using ONE spectrum of light. please be unbias and state only accurate information.


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## bigv1976 (Sep 12, 2010)

Kick ass thread man. I am a T5 grower.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 12, 2010)

bigv1976 said:


> Kick ass thread man. I am a T5 grower.


Im just trying to help ALL T5 growers out there seeing as no one else seems to want to.


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## 420n00b (Sep 12, 2010)

Very interesting. Subbed & rep.


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## RobertInAz (Sep 12, 2010)

Nice to have you back, Professeur, and sorry about your mite problem. I'm about to buy some actinics ...you have a brand/supplier you can recommend?
Bob


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## topspin (Sep 13, 2010)

I'm down with this thread, I've been using T5 only for a year but just the conventional 6700/3000 switch. Will give these a shot


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## dum (Oct 10, 2010)

I am beginning a grow in which I will be using a 65w 420nm (420 for good luck) actinic aquarium light and a 65w 6500k daylight bulb (both made by "current" I believe). I was thinking of adding another small, low watt cfl at around 2700k to fill the spectrum a bit. I like the professor's "full spectrum" idea. If I feel up to it I will start a grow journal. You guys should do a google image search for "light spectrum for plants", very convincing.


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## pr0fesseur (May 21, 2011)

Sorry to everyone!!! I had some of my belongings removed by the authorities! however remember to have something available to prove your innocence i suggest TRUECRYPT ROFL!! so cops took my laptop and found my tent but nothing was in it THANK GOD! i had killed them due to a Mite issue i was having. Everything is up and running and i am posting new pics today! The shorter plant is sharks breath and the taller plant is Kandy Kush... I bought fem seeds and am testing the strains for my setup as you can see Kandy Kush is my new winner! i also have some fem super lemon haze !! I tested 3 varieties one didnt germ after 2 seeds so its out! debating on making a mother.. BTW Kandy Kush is a great topper and sharks breath... i have a BUNCH of tops as you can see.. If anyone asks whats my yeild ... im really not after a yeild.. sounds crazy im trying to test out topping, LST and grooming.. my last plants as you can see were all LST trained! i use a pinch method and the stems bend on their own.. and every day ill push the branches down gently to promote central growth on all nodes!


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## pr0fesseur (May 21, 2011)

dum said:


> I am beginning a grow in which I will be using a 65w 420nm (420 for good luck) actinic aquarium light and a 65w 6500k daylight bulb (both made by "current" I believe). I was thinking of adding another small, low watt cfl at around 2700k to fill the spectrum a bit. I like the professor's "full spectrum" idea. If I feel up to it I will start a grow journal. You guys should do a google image search for "light spectrum for plants", very convincing.


 I say toss the daylight bulb completely and buy the fiji purple they are the perfect "blend" color! and a blue plus thats all you need! i use other bulbs to get a more even "MIX"


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## pr0fesseur (May 21, 2011)

bigv1976 said:


> Kick ass thread man. I am a T5 grower.


Thanks and i apologize ive been having issues with "the authorities!"
everything is back on track and ill have more updates to come!


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## pr0fesseur (May 21, 2011)

My new toy! oh the things you can find on craigs list 150$ NEW!!!


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## pr0fesseur (May 21, 2011)

Wudaheo said:


> From looking at that chart.. Instead of paying $20ea for the actinic bulbs which i think are only around 400-600nm wavelength .. wouldn't it be cheaper to get just to get the $7ea full spectrum t5 bulbs since it has the blue & red spectrum that plants mostly need?


no not at all.. matter of fact you missing the point! actinic bulbs are ~400nm NOT 400-600nm thats the WHOLE spectrum. by using "full spectrum" bulbs you waste electricity by creating light plants DONT use... so in effect my actinic bulbs are more efficient by creating light in a very narrow spectrum.


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## pr0fesseur (May 21, 2011)

PAR vs PUR measurement of light, efficency
This is a new thread to discuss the differences in terms of growth, asethetics and brands of various bulbs of using PAR and PUR measurements.

Some background is useful as these terms are not as familiar to many hobbyists:

Photosynthetically available radiation (PAR) is defined as the amount of radiant energy available within the approximate spectral range of 350 to 750 nm (Tyler 1966). Instruments commonly used in studies of photosynthesis are PAR meters; that is, they report 400J700 I,h) or total PAR. Photosynthetically usable radiation (PUR) is defined as
the fraction of photosynthetically available radiant
energy of such wavelengths that it can be absorbed by
the algal and plant pigments. Light is selectively absorbed
by most algae in the blue and red regions of the
spectrum, causing the transmitted light to be concentrated
in regions of the spectrum where algal pigment
systems are ineffective at trapping light for photosynthesis
(Sullivan et al. 1984). PUR is necessarily less than
PAR, and PUR will depend on both the pigment complement
of the microalgae and the spectral composition
of the available submersed radiant energy.

It has been suggested that we can calculate PUR through a light calculator and thus have a more precise method of measuring light than PAR. However, I have argued that without knowing the pigment complement of the plants in question, none of which are known............nor have been quantified near as I can tell, maybe I have not searched enough yet, you cannot say much about it. Research also supports this view.

PAR will always be equal to or higher than PUR.
I do not dispute that. PAR meters are also easy to measure with, the methods for measuring specific PUR wavelengths and intensities is not. 
Modeling calulators can and do have issues, and need results to verify.

I'm asking and debating whether it can be measured and verified in the aquarium to the same argument made by PUR calculator proponents. There is not enough evidence to say that there is at this point.

You can speculate without support, but you cannot say much else.
What I am asking and looking for is some meat on the bone here, some real support that it makes a difference that aquarists can see, measure, quanatify, heck, anything other than "belief" and yes, I "feel good".

Here's an algal back ground paper that discusses what is involved and the methods to measure PUR in situ, a much higher bar than using a PAR meter. Given that most bulbs used already have a good amount of Red and blue anyway, this starts to get pretty insignificant and difficult to test and support any differences using PUR vs PAR for aquarium plants.

I remain unconvinced.

http://www.new.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_31/issue_3/0557.pdf

Show me some quantum yeld differences, Relative growth rates differences between PAR and PUR with typical bulbs.

Something.

Are comparison of modesl is detailed here:
http://222.aslo.org/lo/toc/vol_44/issue_7/1599.pdf

While there was a difference between PAR and PUR models in biomass, look at the variation, it's quite a bit. Adding 300 species of plants and that would go even higher. There was good correlation with the PAR model and production, see the last Figure 9, also, look at table 1.


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## wildcajun (Jun 5, 2011)

Damn I have a T5 grow going ,no problems at this time Flowers are getting big,25 days into flower period Happy Farming Cajun


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 5, 2011)

Thanks Cajun! nice ladies! during your bloom phase try a few of these
http://www.hellolights.com/24w-procolor-t5hofluorescent-ati.aspx
or
http://www.hellolights.com/24inch-24w-fiji-purple-T5ho-fluorescent.aspx
they will improve (supplement)overall resin and weight production!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 5, 2011)

Updates!!! We All Love Updates!

this is the 4th day of 12/12 Yay! these Babies are doing so well!


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## wildcajun (Jun 5, 2011)

Girls sure look pretty .


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 6, 2011)

Thanks Wildcajun They are coming along nicely Ill have updates tomorrow!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 7, 2011)

UPDATES!! We all love Updates no?


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## TillthedayiDIE420 (Jun 13, 2011)

Looks very healthy my friend, cant wait to see what happens!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 13, 2011)

Ill have more pics tomorrow!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 19, 2011)

Updates coming soon! lost my phone  gotta hunt down my digi cam...


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

Nice to find someone experimenting with spectrums. This is the very reason I decided not to get another LED. I get to play Sun God! 

*The Myth About Green *(~ 500-600 nm), GSL (LED mfg) now incorporates a few green LEDs into his lights. He calls his lights _'_Quantum'. From his website...

_"__Many scientists have long believed that plants absorb little to no light in the 500-600nm region of PAR, however new research has shown that light in this region plays a vital role in growth times, yield, and photosynthetic efficiency._ 
_Plants convert light energy into chemical energy in a process known as photsynthesis. Two compounds, Chlorophyll A & B, are primarily responsible for this conversion process. These compounds absorb blue and red light most efficiently, and have the highest conversion rates at 439nm, 469nm, 642nm, and 670nm. Our Quantum lights target all 4 of these points, and then take the science one step further. Multiple tests have shown that plants absorb more red and blue light in the presence of green light, yet we are the only company to focus on this occurrence. Research published by NASA verifies that when all 3 regions of PAR are balanced properly (400-500nm, 500-600nm, & 600-700nm), flowering times and yields can be dramatically altered.__.."_
and with that I have been on a quest for 1-2 4ft HOs to add to my mix. Anybody?


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## Nordic division (Jun 20, 2011)

Absolutely love led growers and pr0fessor got everything organized like supposed to be


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

*HOLY CRAP *http://www.spectrumlighting.com.au/led_tube_lights.php http://www.spectrumlighting.com.au/


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## Corbat420 (Jun 20, 2011)

dude.... i'll just beat down 80% of your shit with this ONE post..... ok?


*THIS is what BROAD LEAFED PLANTS need.* *not JUST marijuana......*
View attachment 1656967
Veg plants need 5k-5,500 and flowering plants need 2k-3k. these are the BEST spectrums of light for plant growth, they are the spectrums used in Comertial greenhouses. on TOP of that, plants CAN'T absorb green light. none of the chlorophyll's can absorb it, makeing it impossible for the plant to use it......



> * Two compounds, Chlorophyll A & B, are primarily responsible for this conversion process.*


ACTUALY its Chlorophyll A,B,C and D. C and D allow for VERY LITTLE green absorbtion, less than .01% of anything, seeing as C and D only take up around 1% of the total plant structure 

get a job in a comertial greenhouse. you might learn a whole lot. i know i did.......


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

I do not appreciate your arrogant tone. Had you said "When I worked in a commercial greenhouse, they experimented with GREEN spectrums and found no improvement" then at least you would be speaking from knowledge.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

Corbat420 said:


> dude.... i'll just beat down 80% of your shit with this ONE post..... ok?
> 
> 
> *THIS is what BROAD LEAFED PLANTS need.* *not JUST marijuana......*
> ...


I hate when people use information like a stick to beat people with ESPECIALLY when the information they use they dont even understand! im going to dismantle 100% of your argument with what we call scientific FACT.

1.) THe Kelvin scale you use, which is laughable is called the Kelvin scale for a reason. It is based on a black body radiator like an iron pot being HEATED TO A CERTAIN TEMPERATURE TO EMIT LIGHT.heres some photos and graphs so you can actually learn something. ANY BLACK BODY RADIATOR ie lightbulbs CANNOT PRODUCE THE FULL COLOR SPECTRUM!

2.) *Green Light Drives Leaf Photosynthesis More Ef&#64257; ciently than 
Red Light in Strong White Light: Revisiting the Enigmatic 
Question of Why Leaves are Green..*If you wont believe me believe people WITH PHD'S AT OXFORD UNIVERSITY!!!
3.)Chlorophyll DOES INDEED ABSORB GREEN LIGHT VIEW GRAPH BELOWView attachment 1657624
4.) Quit your job and go back to school


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

nordic division said:


> absolutely love led growers and pr0fessor got everything organized like supposed to be


This Is not an LED grow but thanks i try to educate but people can be so damn ignorant.


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

OK now that corbat is behind us, what do you think about having some green ~500 nms mixed in? I am on a quest for 2 to mix into my 8 bulbs hoping you can direct me


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

Use one of these 
ATI T5 24 Watt 24" 12000K Aquablue Special	
$19.95

ATI T5 39 Watt 36" 12000K Aquablue Special	
$20.95

ATI T5 54 Watt 48" 12000K Aquablue Special	
$21.95

ATI T5 80 Watt 60" 12000K Aquablue Special	
$23.95


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## Lightworker (Jun 20, 2011)

jesus, this thread is still alive? good job proffessour, I hope this thread turns out more like a "show and tell" thread with lots of pics than a "your theory sucks dude" thread. (meaning: more updates!)


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

I should get a stickey for this damn thread by now!!! i have to deal with a few flamers and retards then ill post updates...


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

Thanks Pr0f. Do you think one will be sufficient, or should I get 2 for my 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy 4ft? I am getting the room ready to grow under the BB, but it is too hot here this time of year. Won't crank back up till late September, unless I can swing a portable ac. I have seen one advertised for < $300


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

great thing about the badboy is you can use one side at a time.. i would suggest running one side for veg and when your ready to bloom turn on other side its what i did when its too hot! my temps without ventilation hit about 85-90 which the plants dont seem to mind in soil. so long as the roots stay cool and watered... you should look into an evaporative cooler! cheaper to run! no exaust either! ive seen an evap cooler "swamp Cooler" modded to hold 50 gals of water! they use less power and can cool quite well with enough water !
http://burningman.rengeekcentral.com/swampcooler.htmlJUST AN EXAMPLE but its SOLAR POWERED!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Thanks Pr0f. Do you think one will be sufficient, or should I get 2 for my 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy 4ft? I am getting the room ready to grow under the BB, but it is too hot here this time of year. Won't crank back up till late September, unless I can swing a portable ac. I have seen one advertised for < $300


what kind of light setup do you have? what bulbs etc?


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

Unfortunately it's the ambient heat in the room- open beam ceilings. It stays over 90 degrees throughout much of the day. Would an evap help that?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

evaps can bring temps down about 15 degrees depending on the size of the room and since this is an attic area how much space are we talking in SQft


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

Not an attic. It's my spare bedroom. House has beautiful tongue n groove pine ceilings throughout. worse this room is in the direct line of mid=morning-late afternoon sun. I have actually considered some type of roof watering system, but it entails cutting a hole in the roof overhang, which I dread doing


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 20, 2011)

do you have access to the attic above the room? are there windows etc?
It may be possible to *re-insulate* the room in the attic above and prevent a large amount of the heat from entering that room... also if that room gets that hot i would suggest checking our roof vent make sure you have enough airflow.. if that room has windows i would suggest getting the 3m *NIGHT VISION WINDOW FILM* it blocks 75% of the heat from the sun. And USing a _*"GROW TENT"*_ will isolate the plants in a "micro environment" less cooling required!


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## PetFlora (Jun 20, 2011)

There is no attic. The room/house has open beam ceilings. The heat immediately enters the room


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## PetFlora (Jun 21, 2011)

i know you are trying to help but... Why is this so hard for you? Roof- no attic- room- high heat.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 21, 2011)

Not so hard for me i posted links for insulation that blocks IR both on the windows and in the room... then suggested a "grow tent which is much easier to climate control... depending on the room size they make grow tents 8'x8' which would be a room in a room... that would be WAY easier to control temps even in the hottest of rooms... i use a tent because i have a room that has no ac just 1 window and is south facing.. its 88 outside and 73 in the tent...no ac.. the window tint helps alot and IR insulation does a good job repelling the heat transfer through the walls...if you add an evap cooler in a large tent you can keep temps pretty kool!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 21, 2011)

Updates!!!!


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## Millsie (Jun 22, 2011)

Prof, plants look good and I'm really liking this thread too...
I've always been interested in T5's but in the end I went and bought a HPS/MH 400w setup.
I haven't even started growing yet and I'm already liking the look of a T5 setup, oh well... 

Really interested to see how this all turns out!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 22, 2011)

Im just trying to get the stigma of T5 out of peoples mind.. This is NOT a LED or T5 thread but a hybrid style... I am the ONLY one using this setup. and am the first to do the research! Im taking the efficiency of single spectrum growing like LED with the output of T5. I grew with a 400 and after this grow im selling my ballast and bulbs! no more HID for me EVER! 
there are lots of flamers and ignorant people that im trying to cure of their kool-aid sickness. HID's are great but they have had their 15 mins.. LED and plasma are on the way! My T5 setup is for EXPERIMENTAL purposes only.. this isnt about yield or the perfect grow.. but to test the technology and method.. if i can grow a better healthier crop WITHOUT white light and CHEAPER than LED its WIN WIN!!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

Bud pr0n anyone?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

As you can see the lights are Pretty Damn Bright... and the light is evenly spaced along the growing area with no one point of origin for the light. the dispersion pattern give me more even lighting! i have itty bitty leaves growing at the base of my plants....ALL THE TIME... if there wasn't light down there they wouldn't grow i say penetration is pretty damn good...


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Bud pr0n anyone?


looking good.

I have a 4' 6 bulb T-5. What would you suggest for your bulb arrangement according to the wavelength and bulb types that you use?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

9 bulbs total...3 to switch out  
in this order too....

UVL 454 w/internal reflector
Fuji Purple
UVL Super Actinic w/internal reflector
ATI T5 12000K Aquablue Special
UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
Fuji Purple

3. UVL Red Sun 
when you bloom add the red sun bulbs where the actinic (blue) ones are (75.25, 454, Super Actinic)


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## mattman (Jun 23, 2011)

how much does a light setup such as this cost?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

20$ per 4' bulb on average including shipping.
then whatever fixture you get... I bought the quantum because of its lightweight design and great noiseless ballasts. They make a 16 bulb lamp....


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## mattman (Jun 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 20$ per 4' bulb on average including shipping.
> then whatever fixture you get... I bought the quantum because of its lightweight design and great noiseless ballasts. They make a 16 bulb lamp....


Would you mind pointing me in the right direction, possibly where you bought everything? I see you stalk the forum like I do ha


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## lowdime (Jun 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 9 bulbs total...3 to switch out
> in this order too....
> 
> UVL 454 w/internal reflector
> ...


 

not trying to say its a waste of money or anything like that but, if you dont live around a pet store that carried them its like 25 "on the low end" a bulb and at 9 thats 225 bucks and with a badboy thats almost 500 bucks i know i spent alot on my t5 in 08 there is no way i would pay that now when hps are dirt cheap now. so what i am trying to get at is why not just buy two blackstars?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

My badboy was $175 8 bulb.. ya the 16bulb is 529 _*EBAY*_ i use http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/ for my bulbs....15.99-24$ depending on the bulb...prices have come WAY down since 08.. 
I save money on cooling (NONE) and Electricity


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## lowdime (Jun 23, 2011)

wait your saying your t5 puts off no heat?


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## mattman (Jun 23, 2011)

lowdime said:


> wait your saying your t5 puts off no heat?


I have played with T5's before, the ones I had put out very little heat, so really no reason to have serious cooling on... a Fan does just fine.


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## mattman (Jun 23, 2011)

I noticed you have the several spectums, are you noticing any of the plants possibly enjoying one of the spectrums more than another?


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## lowdime (Jun 23, 2011)

i have a sunleaves 8 bulb 4ft and well it puts off some heat but temps still get up there. i am just trying to find a change


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

I dont know where you read that? I said "_*I save money on cooling (NONE)*_" 
Meaning I don't have to cool My growing area. 

When I was using The HID i had to actively cool not only the light but ventilation as well.. More fans etc....


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## lowdime (Jun 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I dont know where you read that? I said "_*I save money on cooling (NONE)*_"
> Meaning I don't have to cool My growing area.
> 
> When I was using The HID i had to actively cool not only the light but ventilation as well.. More fans etc....


 
yea sorry about that i need to stop getting stone so much


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

lowdime said:


> i have a sunleaves 8 bulb 4ft and well it puts off some heat but temps still get up there. i am just trying to find a change


Try an* Evaporative cooler!* IT's less expensive than cooling with AC and given enough water can keep your temps down...


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## PakaloloHui (Jun 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 9 bulbs total...3 to switch out
> in this order too....
> 
> UVL 454 w/internal reflector
> ...


Thanks I might give this a try when I need to get new bulbs.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 23, 2011)

If your going to buy them 1 at a time (which i don't suggest because of shipping costs...) 
Buy the Redsun... first that way youll be ready to bloom... Youll thank me! then when your done order the 454 75.25 then .......12000k
so its WHAT YOU HAVE----->BLOOM (RED SUN)---->NEW CROP(ACTINICS)....12000K is the last because its a "white" light its "less" blue with more red and green.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 24, 2011)

mattman said:


> Would you mind pointing me in the right direction, possibly where you bought everything? I see you stalk the forum like I do ha


http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/ for the lights...
Ebay Bad Boy Lamp..


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 24, 2011)

mattman said:


> I noticed you have the several spectums, are you noticing any of the plants possibly enjoying one of the spectrums more than another?


Yes the Plants LOVE the actinics!!! they will literally grow over to the blue bulbs(454 and the actinics!) in a few days if I dont turn them.


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## PetFlora (Jun 24, 2011)

Sweet!

I am trying to get Quantum to post the Spectrum Graphs of their bulbs before I buy the ATI you recommended, as I did see an ATI 6500 bulb with a nice GREEN spike, so maybe Quantum does too. It's amazing how brain dead companies are about making sure they provide the information needed to make a buying decision.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 24, 2011)

Trust me when I say I've done all the legwork.. stay away from the Kelvin rated bulbs under 10,000 You dont want that much green @ all..or yellow for that matter. I have researched these bulbs in and out and can offer a large amount of my experience and knowledge to your setup. 
Quantum just re-brands cheap bulbs.. The problem with Kelvin rated bulbs is that they say 2900k 6500k "Grow" "Bloom" but each vendor uses different combinations of phosphors to achieve those levels. Quality and lux on these cheap bulbs is quite noticable and you DO get what you pay for. All th bulbs i have chosen are "dimmable" in a dimmable fixture, AND can be overdriven! Cheap bulbs are just that...Where as all the bulbs i have chosen and researched have VERY SPECIFIC wavelength selections. The 10,000k Bulbs are mainly Blue with a touch of red and or green ... but small amounts... Kind of like the QUALITY LED companies are using "white"(I use the term "white" very loosly as everyone has their own definition of white!) LEDs in their newer Lamps.


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## PetFlora (Jun 24, 2011)

You da' man! Not a grow Noob, but a light Noob. 

I do have 8 each of Quantum Tri-phosphor bulbs. Growth was VG until the heat wave killed my root hairs. I think the heat stress caused my 4 sweet female looking bushes to flip to 4 males- or could that have been low quality bulbs at play? Hmmmm. You've got me thinkin.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 24, 2011)

most likely HEAT most cheap bulbs give off more IR heat than light.... Heat WILL kill and stress the hell outa your plants... I use AIRPOTS so heat is not an issue to my rootzone, also beneficial microbes an fungus make the plant more resistant to heat stresses.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 24, 2011)

Also During warm temps dim your lights! Quantum ballasts can be dimmed so can their bulbs! since heat waves usually last a short while the dimming wont hurt overall plant growth!


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## Heads Up (Jun 25, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Nice to find someone experimenting with spectrums. This is the very reason I decided not to get another LED. I get to play Sun God!
> 
> *The Myth About Green *(~ 500-600 nm), GSL (LED mfg) now incorporates a few green LEDs into his lights. He calls his lights _'_Quantum'. From his website...
> 
> ...


Interesting, I will have to look into this info. I too was under the impression 'green' light did your plants no good at all.


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## Heads Up (Jun 25, 2011)

Interesting thread. The thing about this hobby of ours that I find fascinating, other than outright killing off your babies, is there a 'right' way of going about our hobby? Prof you have obviously done some due diligence on the subject of light wavelengths and what spectrum benefits marijuana the most at what time of it's growing cycle. A tip of the hat to you for wanting to share your info. I'm curious to see what kind of yield you get from your experiment and especially the quality of the finished product. Unlike you, I am growing with the intent of at least two ounces per plant under hid lights and my next grow will be a scrog with the intent of producing higher yields with the same amount of lighting. I would love to be able to use only my tent in the summer, the heat and humidity in florida is a killer for my electric bill. I use a spare bedroom to grow and I have everything I need but would love to cut out some of the cost of growing in the summer and still have a decent enough yield to get me through to my next effort.

One thing I would like to question, the swamp cooler thing. They don't work here in florida very well at all, the humidity. To my understanding swamp coolers work best in low humidity, the ten to twenty percent range, dessert. They're great if you live in phoenix not so great for orlando. Other than that, interesting thread. Nothing like a stimulating mix of opinions.

More pics prof, show us what ya' got. How long have your babies been in flower? I'm not a big fan of kushes, not enough of a yield for my tastes plus I'm more of a sativa person.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

_*Green Light Drives Leaf Photosynthesis More Ef&#64257; ciently than 
Red Light in Strong White Light: Revisiting the Enigmatic 
Question of Why Leaves are Green*_
. 
Ive had this argument several times and believe PHD's over any grower myself.. Green light IS absorbed by the plant and used to produce energy! Some green light is necessary.. but not much!

PIC COMING NOW!
This will be week 3 of flower...


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

My next batch!


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## mattman (Jun 26, 2011)

I actually had a professor from Florida state come up to my university, he presented some very fascinating research on the subject of green light, and that it really did have a necessary role in plant growth.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

mattman said:


> I actually had a professor from Florida state come up to my university, he presented some very fascinating research on the subject of green light, and that it really did have a necessary role in plant growth.


Yes there is plenty of research on the topic. And ill believe a PHD over a stoner any day.. Thats why im using my technique! i believe that by following the LED path with T5 i can get better yeild than LED at T5 efficiency and penetration. As you can see in my pics results are showing my method IS working and VERY well.. I have yet to see ANYONE show showing flowering results like mine with cheap "bloom" bulbs.


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2011)

While wasting my time trying to get Quantum to provide/post spectrum color graphs, I followed Pr0fs ATI lead and came across a 6500 bulb with a nice green spike (I'll run it down and post link). I didn't follow up as I thought for sure Quantum would want to post the reason why I spent 25% more for their light. HA! I emailed them and told them they were leaving me no choice but to NOT RECOMMEND them. One of my HPA/LED journals has over 48K hits.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> While wasting my time trying to get Quantum to provide/post spectrum color graphs, I followed Pr0fs ATI lead and came across a 6500 bulb with a nice green spike (I'll run it down and post link). I didn't follow up as I thought for sure Quantum would want to post the reason why I spent 25% more for their light. HA! I emailed them and told them they were leaving me no choice but to NOT RECOMMEND them. One of my HPA/LED journals has over 48K hits.


I urge you to check out this bulb ATI Aquablue Special 12000K Better PAR than the 6500K
TYPICAL T5 6500K GE starcoat top of the line GE bulb(NOT EL CHEAPO!) You do get what you pay for!










OR the AQUASUN by UVL ignore the "color" of the graph liik at the NM range of each spike! this bulb comes with an internal reflector so the light only goes in one direction


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2011)

Pr0f, from your article link, page 4 right column seems to state 550 nm is the ticket but how much? : _Through fitting the data, k and s for the palisade tissue and spongy tissues for 680 and 550 nm were obtained, respectively; 680 nm is the red absorption peak of chlorophyll a in vivo, *while 550 nm is green light at which leaves show maximal T L and R L* ._

and a bit further down... 

_The calculated values showed abrupt changes at the interface between the palisade and spongy tissues. This is because k and s for these tissues differed. Both k and s for the spongy tissue were much greater than those for the palisade tissue (see legend of Fig. 3 ), reflecting the enhancement of absorption by the détour effect and diffusive nature of the spongy tissue._
>
_
*On the other hand, for 550 nm, k /2.3 was 1,500, much greater than &#949; in the green region (<500 m 2 mol &#8211;1 for the solution of chlorophylls) even for the palisade tissue. *These absolute values are somewhat greater than those obtained for blue light (2,600&#8211;2,900 m 2 mol &#8211;1 ) and green light (1,000&#8211;1,300 m 2 mol &#8211;1 ) in spinach leaves ( Vogelmann and Evans 2002 )._

Am I correct thinking mj leaves are Palisade, and if so, then can we hone in on the right amount of Green?
>
Page 5 left column...
_
the chloroplasts in the lowermost part of the leaf absorb <10% of those in the uppermost part, even at a wavelength of 550 nm at which the absorption gradient is most moderate._

Page 7 left column...

_For upright or pendulous leaves, it has long been known that the sharpest light response curves are obtained when these leaves are irradiated equally from both sides ( Moss 1964 , Tanaka and Matsushima 1970 , Evans et al. 1993 )._

Pr0f gets his due: 

_A more straightforward method to detect such a difference in light saturation would be to monitor fluorescence from both sides of the leaf, in order to assess the PSII quantum yields or Genty's parameters for each side ( Genty et al. 1989 ). After formulation by Genty et al. (1989) , the linear electron transport rate from water to NADP + for the whole leaf has been frequently estimated as: (4)
where &#945; is the absorptance of the leaf, &#981; PSII is the fraction of
excitation energy allocated to PSII, F m &#8242; is *the maximal fluorescence in the light, and F s &#8242; is the fluorescence level in the presence of actinic light. *_

Bottom of page 7- top of 8

_The greatest decrease in F v /Fm in the uppermost part of the leaf was observed with blue light, and F v /F m approached high levels at depth. The second greatest damage to the surface chloroplasts was observed with red light, but the damage was confined to the irradiated half of the leaf. *On the other hand, damage to the surface chloroplasts was least with green light, but continued deep into the leaf, probably because sufficient green light penetrated and was absorbed by the chloroplasts in the abaxial side.*_
>
_As has been explained above, it is dangerous to assume that the 
fluorescence signals obtained from the irradiated side of a leaf represent the quantum yield of the chloroplasts within the whole leaf. *In particular, when the chloroplasts near the irradiated surface are photoinhibited, the misleading effect would be very large.*_
_
In situ quantum yield of monochromatic light in white light. As Nishio (2000) clearly postulated, and as we have detailed so far, red or blue light is preferentially absorbed by the chloroplasts in the upper part of the leaf. Then, when PPFD is high, the energy of these wavelengths tends to be dissipated as heat by the upper chloroplasts, while green light drives photosynthesis in the lower chloroplasts that are not light saturated ( Sun et al. 1998 , Nishio 2000 ). However, there has been no quantitative evaluation of this possibility. Here, we propose a new method to quantify the quantum yield of monochromatic light contained in white light.

_This seems like confirmation...
_
Page 9 Thus, in this study, we compared the effects of green light at 550 nm *and* red light at 668 nm. Judging from the
action spectra of green leaves ( McCree 1972 , Inada 1976 ), the
red light at 668 nm used in this study would not cause the marked red-drop effect. Moreover, the measurements were conducted in the presence of the background white light.

The data shown in Figs. 10 and 11 clearly demonstrate that *green
light more effectively drove photosynthesis* than red light in
the white light at high PPFDs.

_*BINGO:*_

Although the light absorption profi les calculated by Nishio (2000) are spurious ( Vogelmann and Evans 2002 ), his argument has nevertheless been proven experimentally to be correct using our differential quantum yield method. Namely, red light is more effective than green light in white light at low PPFDs, *but as PPFD increases, light energy absorbed by the uppermost chloroplasts tends to be dissipated as heat, while penetrating green light increases photosynthesis by exciting chloroplasts located deep in the mesophyll. Thus, for leaves, it could be adaptive to use chlorophylls as photosynthetic pigments, because, by having
chlorophyll with a &#8216;green window&#8217; the leaves are able to maintain high quantum yields for the whole leaf in both weak and strong light conditions.

*So while this confirms what I read on GSLs website (LED mfg) I don't think it answers the ultimate question *"How much 550 nm Green do we need?" Say in my 8 bulb Bad Boy should I have 1/8, 2/8...?*_


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

If you check the light spectrum of the UVL Aquasun and the 12000K bulb we see that the 550nm range is the 3rd most output of the light therefore about 30% of that light is 550nm this should be sufficient as a supplemental light source. As I am using ACTINICS the light penetrates the leaf more readily and makes up for the loss of the Green in my PURE ACTINIC bulbs.. These "White" bulbs can be used ALONE or as a supplement... i prefer to use as a supplement.. but if you used 6 of these you soule get better results than with the 6500K..IMHO
Unfortunately these 12000K bulbs spread their PAR in too many directions for my taste... I would prefer to keep a large actinic spread in veg and a deep red for flowering both with a "white" supplement!


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I urge you to check out this bulb ATI Aquablue Special 12000K Better PAR than the 6500K
> TYPICAL T5 6500K GE starcoat top of the line GE bulb(NOT EL CHEAPO!) You do get what you pay for!
> 
> 
> ...


Would I be correct to assume if one was not mixing bulbs then the Aquarium Specialty would be the better choice (due to the reds), but if mixing bulbs where some were strong red, then buy the Aquasun as it has a wider Green balance?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Would I correct to assume if one was not mixing bulbs then the Aquarium Specialty would be the better choice (due to the reds), but if mixing bulbs where some were strong red, then buy the Aquasun as it has a wider Green balance?


No the color(gradient) of the AQUASUN is WRONG.. the graph was colored improperly, HOWEVER the peaks are correct... the aquasun has MORE red and comes with an internal reflector.... but the ATI has MUCH more blue (Actinic)
Personal preference.. I prefer the actinics! and the 12000k is BRIGHT!! and hard to look @


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2011)

OK, so is this the best choice for blue and green? http://www.soslightbulbs.com/ATI-Aquablue-Special-T5-HO-Bulb.aspx

Did you see this on SOS site? Strong 400 and 640 peaks http://www.soslightbulbs.com/GiesemannAqua-Flora-T5-HO-Aquarium-Bulb.aspx


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2011)

*Oh BTW, That's one hell of a lot of bud production for 5 days. *I have nothing to compare with my Quantum bulbs as all 4 plants became males, so I shut it down for awhile. 

My grow method is HPA which is cutting edge feeding cycles (< 2 seconds wet/~ 3 minutes dry: 24/7 *The combination of it with mixed 12K and Actinic bulbs should be awesome. I am soooo psyched
*


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2011)

my next grow will be a scrog with the intent of producing higher yields with the same amount of lighting. I would love to be able to use only my tent in the summer, the heat and humidity in florida is a killer for my electric bill. I use a spare bedroom to grow and I have everything I need but would love to cut out some of the cost of growing in the summer and still have a decent enough yield to get me through to my next effort.

SCROG should be awesome with an 8 bulb BB. I am ~ 250 miles south of you. I think your temps are a lot cooler at night. If you can grow at night you would also save as electric is cheaper


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> OK, so is this the best choice for blue and green? http://www.soslightbulbs.com/ATI-Aquablue-Special-T5-HO-Bulb.aspx
> 
> Did you see this on SOS site? Strong 400 and 640 peaks http://www.soslightbulbs.com/GiesemannAqua-Flora-T5-HO-Aquarium-Bulb.aspx


The ATI bulb IS the 12000K... the geissman is fine more red than blue... i would still suggest getting the _*AQUASUN 10000k w/Internal Reflector*_
The reflector will push more light directly to the plants instead of making the photons travel to the hood then down...and $15.95


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> my next grow will be a scrog with the intent of producing higher yields with the same amount of lighting. I would love to be able to use only my tent in the summer, the heat and humidity in florida is a killer for my electric bill. I use a spare bedroom to grow and I have everything I need but would love to cut out some of the cost of growing in the summer and still have a decent enough yield to get me through to my next effort.
> 
> SCROG should be awesome with an 8 bulb BB. I am ~ 250 miles south of you. I think your temps are a lot cooler at night. If you can grow at night you would also save as electric is cheaper


the electricity is cheaper @ night is a myth! perpetrated by the power company to make you use more energy!!!
IF you want to save energy do a 12/12 from seed with something that stays short like WW or AK47


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 26, 2011)

theres no reason to get both bulbs .. like i said the uvl internal reflector is reason enough to choose it.. you want both get both ... get all of them! 
you have to realize ive spent months perfecting my bulb choices...I would start with the UVL 10000K internal reflectors and then get the 454, and a 75.25 all internal reflector! and they cover the TOTAL spectrum!


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## PetFlora (Jun 27, 2011)

Ordered the Aquason this morning. FYI Red Suns are back ordered. Aquarium Specialties told me the mfg called THEM to see is they had any.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 27, 2011)

Ya red suns are backordered because the ATI procolor got taken off the market for some stupid reason... ati has a 660nm range DEEP red... would have been great for flowering
but 630nm is still sufficient


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 27, 2011)

UPDATES!!! everyone loves BUD PR0N!!


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## Heads Up (Jun 28, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> the electricity is cheaper @ night is a myth! perpetrated by the power company to make you use more energy!!!
> IF you want to save energy do a 12/12 from seed with something that stays short like WW or AK47


Two hundred fifty miles south of me petflora, that would put you in the miami area. Last summer my flower cycle was from six pm to six am to try to save me from cooling my room at the height of the heat during the day. I went to my local power company, first I asked them how much am I paying a kilowatt hour, they didn't know but I found out about sixteen cents and it is indeed a myth that electricity is cheaper at night. When I asked them about it they looked at my like I had two heads. Prof, I have a barney's farm morning glory about to finish week ten of flower. I grew this seed from a 12/12. Supercropped the main stem and tied two side branches down. The plant is about a foot tall and fourteen inches wide and I'm hoping for two ounces from her dry. Incredible thick, hard nugs on her. I'm hoping to chop her this weekend and keep the plant in one piece for a pic after chopping.


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## johnmontes29 (Jun 28, 2011)

What would you get if they are out of the red sun?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

... bored waiting for more....LOL
But seriously.. Ebay has them.. so does reefbuilders.com


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

Heads Up said:


> Two hundred fifty miles south of me petflora, that would put you in the miami area. Last summer my flower cycle was from six pm to six am to try to save me from cooling my room at the height of the heat during the day. I went to my local power company, first I asked them how much am I paying a kilowatt hour, they didn't know but I found out about sixteen cents and it is indeed a myth that electricity is cheaper at night. When I asked them about it they looked at my like I had two heads. Prof, I have a barney's farm morning glory about to finish week ten of flower. I grew this seed from a 12/12. Supercropped the main stem and tied two side branches down. The plant is about a foot tall and fourteen inches wide and I'm hoping for two ounces from her dry. Incredible thick, hard nugs on her. I'm hoping to chop her this weekend and keep the plant in one piece for a pic after chopping.


Any pics? I would love to see.. I supercrop after pinching twice.. four main stems then supercrop down like arms let them go and she'll sprout up! Thats how i did my Original crop (God Bud). Have you ever revegged or chopped but leaving all the popcorn letting it re-ripen? i usually let a good producer "finish" after a few more weeks shell put out one more time...


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## rick19011 (Jun 28, 2011)

Impressive, was thinking of going for a led grow light but don't have the money, this seems like a good alternative.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

rick19011 said:


> Impressive, was thinking of going for a led grow light but don't have the money, this seems like a good alternative.


I don't see it as an alternative but a replacement..  more output W/W and when plasma comes down I'm going directly to that... 
There's no way that anyone could say HID is "Better because" when looking at Real facts and REAL scientific documentation, and REAL results there are more efficient less expensive ways to grow  Plasma WILL be the next Method. it fits both HID and LED Growers needs.. With the light spectrum almost IDENTICAL to the sun, indoor growers will be able to produce MONSTER plants! indoors with LESS wattage!


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## mellokitty (Jun 28, 2011)

@ pet flora:

shawn from quantum is a friend of ours and i was gonna bug him a little bit about how i was reading complaints about his company and before i got a chance to, he was like "let me guess, it's about putting the spectrum graph on the wp, right?" 

he wanted me to let you know he's not ignoring you, he's just waaaaaay behind on all sorts of stuff (including getting on his proofreader to make the accompanying information to the bulb info 'publishing quality'). he and his family are in the process of moving to another country (they're literally leaving tomorrow) so he's been pre-occupied by that for the last month or so and sends his apologies. says he didn't expect the graph thing to take so damn long, and that he'll be back in office on the 3rd.

[/threadjack] sorry pr0f. you have done what i haven't managed to do in *years*; you've gotten my man sincerely interested in blue-spectrum fluoros. i can't even begin to tell you how exciting that is.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> @ pet flora:
> 
> shawn from quantum is a friend of ours and i was gonna bug him a little bit about how i was reading complaints about his company and before i got a chance to, he was like "let me guess, it's about putting the spectrum graph on the wp, right?"
> 
> ...


Well I think its something that IS very interesting and WHY IN THE WORLD no one but me has jumped head first into this? I now think that With the proper "tweaking" we can find that "Magic Light Soup" in T5 bulbs and grow beyond our Wildest Dreams! 

I am trying to raise some $$ for another lamp and put them vertically on either side of the plants kind of like a light box!


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## mellokitty (Jun 28, 2011)

(sorry if i'm repeating myself here, i can't remember who i've told this story to): i saw some side-by-side 'cherry bomb' a number of years back where buddy was supplementing half of his hps room with those blue lights you see in nail salons. apparently they all started as clones taken in the same batch off the same mom, but when they finished up almost didn't even look like the same *strain.
i've been prattling on about this for years, in fact when we upgraded our room i even mentioned this to the guys at quantum, but i guess my visual men respond better to pictures than anecdote. 

so thank you again.

and the 'pseudo light box' sounds awesome!


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

No problem... there is a paper that shows the effects on ACTINIC light with plants.. it in my grow journal...called the facts about green light great read kinda dry but it explains in detail that actinic light and green light have tremendous effects on plant growth.. So much so that the amout of "blue" that a HID puts out can be completely replaced by Blue t5 and achieve the same results! w/w If you look at the spectrograph on HID the largest spike on ALL HID is the Infra red band HEAT by 3:1 so in essence the bulb generates 3x more HEAT than light... Just sayin... if i had 1000W of T5 actinic vs HPS im pretty sure where my money would go! ITS all about PAR


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## mattman (Jun 28, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> No problem... there is a paper that shows the effects on ACTINIC light with plants.. it in my grow journal...called the facts about green light great read kinda dry but it explains in detail that actinic light and green light have tremendous effects on plant growth.. So much so that the amout of "blue" that a HID puts out can be completely replaced by Blue t5 and achieve the same results! w/w If you look at the spectrograph on HID the largest spike on ALL HID is the Infra red band HEAT by 3:1 so in essence the bulb generates 3x more HEAT than light... Just sayin... if i had 1000W of T5 actinic vs HPS im pretty sure where my money would go! ITS all about PAR


So are you saying that t5 actinic and t5 blue spec. lights would be the best combo?


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

mattman said:


> So are you saying that t5 actinic and t5 blue spec. lights would be the best combo?


Actinic IS blue... more precisely Actinic is the FAR blue range 
The first line in WIKIPEDIA
"Actinic light is either light that affects photographic film,[1] or *will facilitate photosynthesis or stimulate light sensitive species*"

There are different Actinic bulbs out on the market. And it IS kind of intimidating on which one to buy. But there are some factors we should take into account!!! 
First Lets look at Spectrum. without too much explaination ill show you some pictures. the First pic is the "Super Actinic" These bulbs are ALL a DEEP BLUE color and while they look cool really do not have a good PAR value. There are Better Bulbs to Stimulate plant Growth. 





The second Picture is the Bulbs that i call 450's(actinic Plus). These bulbs usually have a *spike* @420nm and an *arch* @450nm





From here we move onto the "Special" Actinic These vary by as many combinations as there are companies that make them and most DAYLIGHT bulbs follow this model. A large majority of bulbs from 20000K





to 12000K





After 12000K the lights start to produce more [email protected] and [email protected] More of the light your eyes see as white! "Cool White" then the color trickles down lower and more "warm White" by adding more of these colors and less blue...

I would stay away from the "Special" Actinics like the plague and here's why. By adding these Unnecessary bands of light the bulb is not producing bands of "useful" light when other bulbs produce a large majority in a single agea and greater PAR.
_For example_
The typical "Bloom" bulb




Notice not that much going on, yeah they work.. but look at my Red




and my *PURPLE*





By mixing these various bulbs we can more accurately target the plants needs By Providing More "Usable" light i dont waste Money on heating due to inefficiency in the lamp to produce the proper spectrum.. T5 has MASSIVE potential..you can get it REALLY close to the plants and it has GREAT penetration with the "Right" light!





BTW i WILL journal this post if anyone misses it. I


Did everyone miss this but me? I thought i would be amongst MANY users growing like this... :/ turns out its only ME


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## mattman (Jun 28, 2011)

Okay, pro

After reading that post, I understand what you are saying, but from your experience so far... how many of each bulb and ratios would you use for growth from veg to flower. I want to known each and every detail. I want to know which bulb, which company, how many.

Your thread has been extremely useful... I too have come to the conclusion that there is large amount of science behind this, and I think you are doing a excellent job at documenting your results and explaining them wonderfully.

Also, I'm reading through the article you provided, very interesting.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

mattman said:


> Okay, pro
> 
> After reading that post, I understand what you are saying, but from your experience so far... how many of each bulb and ratios would you use for growth from veg to flower. I want to known each and every detail. I want to know which bulb, which company, how many.
> 
> ...


Thanks for your support.

Well you can see the bulbs i have in my sig minus the ati pro color... that one is discontinued.. I have One of the 454 2 Fuji purple 1 super actinic 2 Blue+ and have recently gotten some 22K for my next switch out..and i have 3 of the RED SUN by UVL


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## mattman (Jun 28, 2011)

Professor I have a question, after reading through the journal, I think I am understanding that a 2/1 ratio of red/blue light keeps the plant running at optimal condition with minimal heat. So, do you think a 1red-1blue-1red-1purple-1blue-1red would be a good order to have the lights? I was thinking that they would need to be lined up so that the same wavelengths are making it to a larger surface area of the plant.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

for 6 lamps 3 red is too much...
purple blue red purple blue red
or 
purple red blue purple red blue 
if your vegging you dontt need red an should have a 22K or 454 instead of the red...


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## mattman (Jun 28, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> for 6 lamps 3 red is too much...
> purple blue red purple blue red
> or
> purple red blue purple red blue
> if your vegging you dontt need red an should have a 22K or 454 instead of the red...


I don't recall in the article where it stated that red wasnt necessary for veg. Just said 50% blue for plant growth.


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## fatalack (Jun 28, 2011)

WOW I currently grow with LED's And cfl's 
But like I said wow, I like the complete break down of your'e knowledge especially the external link to the oxford journals.Cant say more I would love to try this.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

mattman said:


> I don't recall in the article where it stated that red wasnt necessary for veg. Just said 50% blue for plant growth.


Let me rephrase
I dont think the RED SUN Bulbs should be used in VEG the Fiji Purple bulbs are 50% red....so using the red bulbs you have a 70/30 mix red /blue. it would better suit you to use a 454 or 22K bulbs to add a better spectra for vegging.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 28, 2011)

fatalack said:


> WOW I currently grow with LED's And cfl's
> But like I said wow, I like the complete break down of your'e knowledge especially the external link to the oxford journals.Cant say more I would love to try this.


Thsnks!
Like I have stated previously I'm here to Experiment, document and enlighten.. I'm not shoving anything down any ones throat, or saying my grow is in anyway better. Just using FACT based analysis and research to my advantage. Im taking another PROVEN technology and applying it to a "similar" field... Seems like a no brainer to me! Thanks for following along and please feel free to contribute.


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## Heads Up (Jun 28, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Any pics? I would love to see.. I supercrop after pinching twice.. four main stems then supercrop down like arms let them go and she'll sprout up! Thats how i did my Original crop (God Bud). Have you ever revegged or chopped but leaving all the popcorn letting it re-ripen? i usually let a good producer "finish" after a few more weeks shell put out one more time...


Prof, yes indeed I have revegged a couple of plants. I did it with an arjan's haze after she was chopped and from sannies seeds I am currently growing a shackzilla and a herijuana x big white. I took some cuttings three weeks into flower, revegged them and now they have a few more weeks to go, well at least the herijuana x big white does, the shackzilla will take longer it's a sativa dominant strain. I have only topped one or two plants since I've been growing which is a couple of years now. Generally I will fim a plant to slow it down but rarely top them. I didn't care for fimming since I don't seem to get it right so instead I've started supercropping. The morning glory and my psycho killer and deep psycho, after supercropping, I tie down the main stem to keep it from popping back up overnight. It also moves the top over to the side of the container allowing more light to penetrate into the plant.

These are some pics of my morning glory taken last week. One or two of the pics are from under the plant looking into the middle which is just slap full of bud. I'll post up some pics after the chop which I hope will be this weekend.


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## MEANGREEN69 (Jun 29, 2011)

nice thread.keep the updates comeing i really want to see the outcome.


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## SOCALRP (Jun 30, 2011)

Hi there, pr0fessuer- just wanted to let you know that this thread right here is the reason I joined this community. While I have been entrenched in the culture for quite some time and have worked in the industry on a couple different levels, I am ready to take that next step and start growing (for my own personal use). I like that you take a decidedly scientific approach to your decision making processes when it comes to equipment choices as well as cultivation techniques. Looking forward to seeing more as I have already learned valuable stuff from this thread alone. This is my first ever post here, and I intend on divng in head first. Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your angle on things.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 30, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> Hi there, pr0fessuer- just wanted to let you know that this thread right here is the reason I joined this community. While I have been entrenched in the culture for quite some time and have worked in the industry on a couple different levels, I am ready to take that next step and start growing (for my own personal use). I like that you take a decidedly scientific approach to your decision making processes when it comes to equipment choices as well as cultivation techniques. Looking forward to seeing more as I have already learned valuable stuff from this thread alone. This is my first ever post here, and I intend on divng in head first. Just wanted to let you know that I appreciate your angle on things.


Thanks it means A LOT to me that others become excited and enlightened by my research. Stay tuned more to come!


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## reverof (Jun 30, 2011)

I actually owned an aquarium store for several years, and was a huge T5 fan back then and brought that with me to this hobby. I have several bulbs and just for a test purpose went and put in 1 actinic 420-460nm bulb in my t5 light that I use for veg. I am curious as to how well the plants react to this bulb, i would expect to see some movement within 48 hours at the the plants around it and growth of plants directly under it. I have 7 plants directly under it and are for most part even height with the majority of the 28 plants. I will be looking for plants movement towards that bulb that are on either side and look at growth of the plants directly underneith it. all these plants are about 6" tall. its presently 10pm when I placed the bulb in the slot, will make first post on if any changes about that time tomorrow night.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 30, 2011)

reverof said:


> I actually owned an aquarium store for several years, and was a huge T5 fan back then and brought that with me to this hobby. I have several bulbs and just for a test purpose went and put in 1 actinic 420-460nm bulb in my t5 light that I use for veg. I am curious as to how well the plants react to this bulb, i would expect to see some movement within 48 hours at the the plants around it and growth of plants directly under it. I have 7 plants directly under it and are for most part even height with the majority of the 28 plants. I will be looking for plants movement towards that bulb that are on either side and look at growth of the plants directly underneith it. all these plants are about 6" tall. its presently 10pm when I placed the bulb in the slot, will make first post on if any changes about that time tomorrow night.


I cant wait! and yes the plants do enjoy the actinic light!


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## reverof (Jun 30, 2011)

Funny thing is when I started this hobby I really thought about aquarium bulbs, specific nm ones of course and with just a hint of reading on different forums similar questions were asked and always said it wouldnt work. I really didnt even think much of it till you actually put 2 & 2 together for me, stating (which I knew but didnt put 2&2 together) LED is very specific wave length, so whats the differene with T5's in those exact or very close to exact wave lengths.

Am looking forward to seeing some results. If works correctly with no ill effects I will be ordering some more actinic bulbs, obviously still got wholesale accounts so ATI bulbs are $14.80 a piece lol... also some other brands that are actually cheaper and I will say this years of t5 usage, almost all the are exact the same... UVL has a slight leg up with the internal reflector.


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## pr0fesseur (Jun 30, 2011)

well results are all i have with these t5, as you can see from my photos.. all im using is T5's plants look healthy, minus a little mag difficiency im battling...


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## reverof (Jun 30, 2011)

Try using some CalMag? 
BTW you flowering with all UVL Red Suns?


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## Hasbroh (Jun 30, 2011)

Really enjoying this thread. Plasma will be the future but until then...

Prof,didn't see where you determined the 8 bulbs to be sufficient. Do you feel 8 4" bulbs are where you want to be for a 4x4 area? Have you considered using 12 or 16 bulbs? How do you feel about the extra bulbs and not changing out but keeping all the bulbs in for a more natural light?

Btw, I saw portable ac units at Home Depot today starting at $259 and portable swamp coolers starting at $99.


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## reverof (Jun 30, 2011)

This would be my honest opinion on 4x4 area and T5's... T5's are great great lights, but the light output outside the bulb region begins to fall. What I mean is, if your fixture is 3 feet wide anything really outside the 3'6" mark would get a fraction of the light... this being said for vegging in particular where your fixture is very low to the plants. A correctly configured fixture I "THINK" could be fine for flowering a 4x4 area with the fixture raised up, but still think on either side plants would not get as much light.


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## Hasbroh (Jun 30, 2011)

Not sure what you are talking about. I'm referring to 48" bulbs. An 8 bulb unit measures 24" x 48" and a 16 bulb unit is 48" x 48".


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## reverof (Jun 30, 2011)

Correct, if you want to cover a 4x4 area well, I would recommend the 16 bulb fixture, as the 8 bulb fixture would at best truly cover a 30"x52" area.


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## Hasbroh (Jul 1, 2011)

Hasbroh said:


> Really enjoying this thread. Plasma will be the future but until then...
> 
> Prof,didn't see where you determined the 8 bulbs to be sufficient. Do you feel 8 4" bulbs are where you want to be for a 4x4 area? Have you considered using 12 or 16 bulbs? How do you feel about the extra bulbs and not changing out but keeping all the bulbs in for a more natural light?


Thanks for your input, reverof.

Prof, would appreciate your take re. my queries.


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## reverof (Jul 1, 2011)

I attached 2 images showing the actinic bulb in place over the plants. Total of 28 plants, all are about 10 days old or so.
White Lightning, Ice, Aurora Indica and EasyRyder
Fixture is a retro (diy) 6 bulb T5 HO.


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## reverof (Jul 1, 2011)

It is presently 16 hours after installing the single actinic bulb... and 14 hours of light (I run 22/2 in veg)
Some very noticeable changes have occurred, I am hoping you all can see them in the pictures.
1. All plants on the right of the actinic bulb have pointed themselves in direction of the actinic bulb, even though there are 2 veg bulbs directly above them)
2. Some noticeable plant growthin the line directly underneath the actinic bulb.
The plant in the very back left corner if you can see it has been the star of this grow so far, its an Aurora Indica, 2 of the plants under the actinic bulb are truthfully looking to even up with it, I expect if the growth continues under the actinic as it did in past 14 hours, this time tomorrow they will have at least equaled the tallest and possibly taken it over.

Again these pictures are about 16 hours since original.


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 1, 2011)

Nice report reverof.


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## reverof (Jul 1, 2011)

I just want to point out some other bulbs that can be purchased, the brand Blueline has been around for several years and is a little cheaper in price, avg $16 a bulb. They have a few bulbs you might find interesting

BlueLine Actinic 420nm
BlueLine Actinic 460nm
BlueLine Koral Gro Red - Peaks at 436nm Provides blue & red 

The 420 & 460 are obvious, the Koral Gro light, I really like its potential due to its range, below is the chart for the Koral Gro bulb. I like that it has a peak at 436nm but also has a hit what looks to be around 600-660 range, it also has a hit at 540 or so, but i dont see it as wasted output, just a little bid of broad spectrum with great 436 range and red range.


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## mattman (Jul 1, 2011)

reverof said:


> It is presently 16 hours after installing the single actinic bulb... and 14 hours of light (I run 22/2 in veg)
> Some very noticeable changes have occurred, I am hoping you all can see them in the pictures.
> 1. All plants on the right of the actinic bulb have pointed themselves in direction of the actinic bulb, even though there are 2 veg bulbs directly above them)
> 2. Some noticeable plant growthin the line directly underneath the actinic bulb.
> ...


Very interesting indeed. I think these with the combination of LED's for side lighting would be a very efficient grow. Both for the plant and the grower.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

reverof said:


> Try using some CalMag?
> BTW you flowering with all UVL Red Suns?


Cal mag check! but it seems that this strain just doesent like me.. ive tried for 2 weeks to figure out whats wrong at this point... i dont care.... everything is simple organic the other plant is fine and this one is probably just not meant for my setup.... this is an experimental grow and other than a defficiency its still growin


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

reverof said:


> I just want to point out some other bulbs that can be purchased, the brand Blueline has been around for several years and is a little cheaper in price, avg $16 a bulb. They have a few bulbs you might find interesting
> 
> BlueLine Actinic 420nm
> BlueLine Actinic 460nm
> ...


 I applaud your enthusiasm  However stay away from those Special bulbs... i just did a writeup about the special atinics.. they have very low PAR because of wasted lumens in a particular spectrum. stick with super actinics and blue plus youll be pleasantly supprised.. also the fuji purple have the best spectrum on the market! also the UVL has internal reflectors that alone is worth the .99c extra!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

mattman said:


> Very interesting indeed. I think these with the combination of LED's for side lighting would be a very efficient grow. Both for the plant and the grower.


The whole point of this thread is to show that LED is unnecessary when T5 provides the same spectrum with better penetration!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

reverof said:


> It is presently 16 hours after installing the single actinic bulb... and 14 hours of light (I run 22/2 in veg)
> Some very noticeable changes have occurred, I am hoping you all can see them in the pictures.
> 1. All plants on the right of the actinic bulb have pointed themselves in direction of the actinic bulb, even though there are 2 veg bulbs directly above them)
> 2. Some noticeable plant growthin the line directly underneath the actinic bulb.
> ...


I told you that you would be pleasantly surprised
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

Hasbroh said:


> Really enjoying this thread. Plasma will be the future but until then...
> 
> Prof,didn't see where you determined the 8 bulbs to be sufficient. Do you feel 8 4" bulbs are where you want to be for a 4x4 area? Have you considered using 12 or 16 bulbs? How do you feel about the extra bulbs and not changing out but keeping all the bulbs in for a more natural light?
> 
> Btw, I saw portable ac units at Home Depot today starting at $259 and portable swamp coolers starting at $99.


I think that 8 bulbs for my setup is sufficient...im trying to balance $$$ with results.. now if i used a 12 light i would have to add cooling.. over the time of the grow i would add 100$ to my costs for electricity and bulbs... i dont think i could have a 16 bulb in my tent .. sure in a bigger area fine...but consider that 16 bulbs can only illuminate a 3x4 area...regardless of the amount of bulbs the coverage is the same.....so with tat i think 2 8 bulbs could grow MORE than 1x16bulb again i know NO ONE running my setup besides me.. so if you wanna donate to help me run a higher output setup... 8 bulbs seems the way to go... If i could use 2 fixtures i could grow with the fixture vertical and get better results..


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## mattman (Jul 1, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> The whole point of this thread is to show that LED is unnecessary when T5 provides the same spectrum with better penetration!


Im just saying for side lighting... they are much lower wattage than T5, so I dont think side lighting would be that inefficient compared to having t5's as side lighting that use more wattage.

Mainly im saying this, bc I currently own LED's... so replacing them for the light above the canopy is what ill do... but will keep the LED for side lighting.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

mattman said:


> Im just saying for side lighting... they are much lower wattage than T5, so I dont think side lighting would be that inefficient compared to having t5's as side lighting that use more wattage.
> 
> Mainly im saying this, bc I currently own LED's... so replacing them for the light above the canopy is what ill do... but will keep the LED for side lighting.


Ah gotcha! sorry its late and i didnt know you had LED currently... i think led as side lighting is almost a wasteWhat i mean is I would try to put it facing UP into the canopy... bottom lighting! considering LED has a short light throw below canopy would be more beneficial.. leaves absorb light from any direction but light entering the parallel to the leaf would give better coverage and use of the lamp..


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## mattman (Jul 1, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Ah gotcha! sorry its late and i didnt know you had LED currently... i think led as side lighting is almost a wasteWhat i mean is I would try to put it facing UP into the canopy... bottom lighting! considering LED has a short light throw below canopy would be more beneficial.. leaves absorb light from any direction but light entering the parallel to the leaf would give better coverage and use of the lamp..


Gotcha, should have thought of that my self. I am going to finish my current cactus grow with the LED... and will def be buying a 8unit t5, with the bulbs we discussed earlier.... I knew I should have went t5 from the beginning, but with all the speculation I didnt want to risk it... Thank the plant gods yah came around to put some effort in t5.

Something I have been considering

Getting decent sized cabinet, and lining these t5's on all sides with screens around them so that there is complete light saturation... similar to the unit earlier in the thread


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## reverof (Jul 1, 2011)

I just checked the girls and all seem to be doing well... I will do another update tomorrow about 2pm as I did today.

I do like the wavelength for the fiji purple, BUT... the price on that bulb is about rediculous $30 a bulb. I would have to see amazing results form that bulb to even consider it, as I have 1 6 bulb fixture and 2 8 bulb fixtures.

Btw I just got done reading about the ATI pro color & the fiji purple, both are manuf by Sylvania for their respected companies, fiji purple is by far a better bulb all around (between the 2) as the pro color. And the use of thr pro color is almost redundant if using fiji purple, the fiji just has a large addition to the 650nm area where pro color lightly hits around 615nm here is a great page including graphs. http://reefgizmo.com/2011/01/kz-fiji-purple-vs-ati-purple-plus/


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## reverof (Jul 1, 2011)

Also here are graphs for the Blueline bulbs.. including the Koral Gro
http://www.championlighting.com/product.php?productid=35107&cat=0&page=4


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

_*MY next purchase with these T5 bulbs can we say "heaven"*_!!!


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## mattman (Jul 1, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> _*MY next purchase with these T5 bulbs can we say "heaven"*_!!!


but it only fits 1 plant :/


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 1, 2011)

mattman said:


> but it only fits 1 plant :/


 1big plant!


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## reverof (Jul 2, 2011)

I just have to say I am disappointed that we can't get more people involved in this. I know tons are using T5's and are most just straight not willing to test or listen or see another aspect then, 3000k bulbs and 6000k bulbs?


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## reverof (Jul 2, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> UPDATES!!! everyone loves BUD PR0N!!


How long did you veg these plants? also how far along in flowering are they?


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## rick19011 (Jul 2, 2011)

So how much cheaper is it to grow like this compared to buying an LED panel then?
I know LED prices vary but what kind of saving would be made if going down this route?


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 2, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> _*MY next purchase with these T5 bulbs can we say "heaven"*_!!!


Isn't that a phototron???

My friend had one back in the late 90's. I used it once myself and they work, but your plant gets crowded in the casing and I did not feel there was enough airflow for my likings, or any period. Improvise and make your own. I think it was a waste of money personally.


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## mellokitty (Jul 2, 2011)

personally i'd be more interested in those industrial dealies they're putting in hoity-toity restaurants getting on the "grow your own ingredients" bandwagon.... (hang on a sec, i forget what they're called...)


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 2, 2011)

rick19011 said:


> So how much cheaper is it to grow like this compared to buying an LED panel then?
> I know LED prices vary but what kind of saving would be made if going down this route?


I dont own LED so i can t tell you how much cheaper. what i can tell you is theres better penetration and more light output! at a fraction of the cost!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 2, 2011)

reverof said:


> I just checked the girls and all seem to be doing well... I will do another update tomorrow about 2pm as I did today.
> 
> I do like the wavelength for the fiji purple, BUT... the price on that bulb is about rediculous $30 a bulb. I would have to see amazing results form that bulb to even consider it, as I have 1 6 bulb fixture and 2 8 bulb fixtures.
> 
> Btw I just got done reading about the ATI pro color & the fiji purple, both are manuf by Sylvania for their respected companies, fiji purple is by far a better bulb all around (between the 2) as the pro color. And the use of thr pro color is almost redundant if using fiji purple, the fiji just has a large addition to the 650nm area where pro color lightly hits around 615nm here is a great page including graphs. http://reefgizmo.com/2011/01/kz-fiji-purple-vs-ati-purple-plus/


Pro Color has been discontinued i am now using the RED SUN bulbs by uvl..
the fuji purple is the ONLY bulb like it!
There are ONLY a handful of light bulb manufacturers
sylvania and GE being the biggest.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 2, 2011)

reverof said:


> How long did you veg these plants? also how far along in flowering are they?


6 weeks veg and now in the 4th week flowering.


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## Hasbroh (Jul 2, 2011)

I'm getting pretty excited about your experiment. Woke up in the middle of the night thinking about a 5'l x 5'w x 8'h cabinet, 4 plants. Lights up top and sides and one in the middle the way some growers place their HPS bulbs. It would require a custom frame. Can you place the ballists outside of the grow room?


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## mattman (Jul 2, 2011)

well pro, i went ahead and bought the 8 lights, along with 5 extra incase they go out or get damaged for what ever reason. I still cant find your fixture though, searched ebay and google.


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## reverof (Jul 2, 2011)

Bad Boy is by Quantum is very readily available... here is one place with decent prices
http://www.greners.com/grow-lights/fluorescent-grow-lights/brand/quantum-badboy.html

Only reason I didnt get a Bad Boy was I had older 8 bulb fixtures already. and enough end caps and ballasts for a 6 bulb retro


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 2, 2011)

Hasbroh said:


> I'm getting pretty excited about your experiment. Woke up in the middle of the night thinking about a 5'l x 5'w x 8'h cabinet, 4 plants. Lights up top and sides and one in the middle the way some growers place their HPS bulbs. It would require a custom frame. Can you place the ballists outside of the grow room?


Ballasts dont produce that much heat... and they dont have long leads. HOWEVER there are "kits "like" this one where you can DIY






Special Pricing for DIY KIT
DIY KIT 1
Dual x 24W Kit
1no of Dual x 24W E-ballast (Elbiru)
4nos of BJB Waterproof End-caps
2nos of 2Ft T5 parabolic spider reflectors (complete with plastic holder)
2mtrs of wiring 
13Amp Plug Top with 1.5mtrs of 3coilx70 power cord
SPECIAL PRICE AT ONLY $70.00 PER SET
NORMAL PRICE = $85.00 


DIY KIT 2
Dual x 39W Kit
1no of Dual x 39W E-ballast (Elbiru)
4nos of BJB Waterproof End-caps
2nos of 3Ft T5 parabolic spider reflectors (complete with plastic holder)
2mtrs of wiring 
13Amp Plug Top with 1.5mtrs of 3coilx70 power cord 
SPECIAL PRICE AT ONLY $75.00 PER SET
NORMAL PRICE = $90.00 



DIY KIT 3
Dual x 54W Kit
1no of Dual x 54W E-ballast (Elbiru)
4nos of BJB Waterproof End-caps
2nos of 4Ft T5 parabolic spider reflectors (complete with plastic holder)
2mtrs of wiring 
13Amp Plug Top with 1.5mtrs of 3coilx70 power cord 
SPECIAL PRICE AT ONLY $85.00 PER SET
NORMAL PRICE = $100.00 


OPTIONAL
Option 1
Change to Vossloh or Tridonic Atco brand of E-ballast - Add $20.00
Option 2
Change to Non-waterproof endcaps - Less $23.00


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 2, 2011)

reverof said:


> Bad Boy is by Quantum is very readily available... here is one place with decent prices
> http://www.greners.com/grow-lights/fluorescent-grow-lights/brand/quantum-badboy.html
> 
> Only reason I didnt get a Bad Boy was I had older 8 bulb fixtures already. and enough end caps and ballasts for a 6 bulb retro


_*BADBOY $199*_


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## reverof (Jul 2, 2011)

Quick update... no big notice of growth on the direct line of plants. Also the plants to the right of the light have straightened back up, no longer pointing towards the actinic bulb. Everyone seems very happy just nothing major to report.


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## Hasbroh (Jul 3, 2011)

I think I got a little confused with V-HO so let me get the facts straight. No V-HO lamps or bulbs, correct? So, would all 48" bulbs be 54 watts, 24"/24 watts, etc.?

Prof, I was asking about the ballasts/heat because I could be talking about 800-1200 watts in a 5x5 cabinet. My room is 88* in the summer.

Nice price on the BADBOY. Good to see the kits, too!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 3, 2011)

Hasbroh said:


> I think I got a little confused with V-HO so let me get the facts straight. No V-HO lamps or bulbs, correct? So, would all 48" bulbs be 54 watts, 24"/24 watts, etc.?
> 
> Prof, I was asking about the ballasts/heat because I could be talking about 800-1200 watts in a 5x5 cabinet. My room is 88* in the summer.
> 
> Nice price on the BADBOY. Good to see the kits, too!


No v-ho... However these bulbs CAN be V-HO by putting them in a V-HO setup but they will shorten the lifespan by more than half. 
My 8 lamp is in a 3x3x6 tent....no fans inside just an exaust fan with carbon filter...


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## PetFlora (Jul 3, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I dont own LED so i can t tell you how much cheaper. what i can tell you is theres better penetration and more light output! at a fraction of the cost!



*rick:* I have a 2 yo UFO 90. I think it only has 2 red and 2 blue spectrums; it's probably 90/10 R/B. I paid $370. Today, they sell the same light for $280, and oversell its' coverage potential. Current LED competitor offerings use 3 watt chip sets, provide 5-8 spectrums, and are way more expensive.

Foot print is an issue with LEDs. An 8 bulb T 5 provides a 2 x 4 foot print, getting that coverage with a LED of comparable spectrums to an 8 bulb T 5 with Pr0fs bulb recommendations would require 2 LEDs @~ $750 per (GSL.com- with Quantum option). Also consider when T 5 bulb lumens decline, replacing them is simple and fast. hth


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## reverof (Jul 4, 2011)

new little test I through up... I had a mixture of aqurium bulbs, non of these are strict actinic bulbs, total of 6 bulbs put in a 8 bulb fixture, 1 is a regular bloom bulb the layout goes as such

life-glo (full spectrum bulb) - bloom 6500k - life-glo - life-glo - aquasun ( 3 peaks at 420/540/600 reddish in color) - empty - aquasun - empty

I placed 4 plants under this setup and 3 in between this fixture and my normal veg fixture. Will get a picture here shortly.
Goal is to see how the 3 between the two fixtures reacts, leaning turning of fan leaves etc... 4 under it are to see full fledge action with only those lights

Pics



Also noticed taking pics of this fixture that 1 of the ballasts doesnt seem to be happy, will have to replace this shortly... the 4 outside lights are on 1 ballast workhorse 7 that was replaced before, the middle 4 are on an old original ballast.


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## Precog420 (Jul 4, 2011)

Very impressed and very interested! I was originaly going to buy 400 watt induction but I really cant fit that into my budget at the moment. I will soon be ordering the 8 bulb Quantum T5 BadBoy Fixture -4foot- along with what seems to be the most accurute bulb arrangement, *

UVL Red sun 630nm; 
UVL 454nm;
UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm;
ATI Pro Color 660nm;
KorallenZucht Fuji Purple 630 & 440nm*

I'm excited to see what this setup can do for me. I plan on starting a thread/journal very soon. I allready have a small room built so things should move quickly.

Pr0fesseur, thanks for the tremendous amount information, and even more so to the way you lay it out.
+++ rep!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 5, 2011)

Precog420 said:


> Very impressed and very interested! I was originaly going to buy 400 watt induction but I really cant fit that into my budget at the moment. I will soon be ordering the 8 bulb Quantum T5 BadBoy Fixture -4foot- along with what seems to be the most accurute bulb arrangement, *
> 
> UVL Red sun 630nm;
> UVL 454nm;
> ...


 I am Glad that i may have helped in any way. The ATI PROCOLOR are no longer being produced.... Unfortunately... SO i have replaced them with the UVL RED SUN. I am still trying to find a far red bulb but i dont think its extremely necessary... My last document about the "truth of Green light" has explained that far red does more cellular damage than blue actinic light... Also actinic light seems to enhance/increase resin production. 
I hear induction lamps do very well and last a LONG time... I was considering them for a while before T5.. the ease of access to bulbs and equip was main concern for me...T5 wins
My bulb choice is in no way the "perfect" setup but if i had a 16 bulb i would add a few bulbs. Since this is not the case i dont have room to add "colors" the light would not balance properly.. 
PS don't put the red sun bulbs at the outside of the lamp..
I read somewhere out there that there are issues with these bulbs being on the outside of lamps... 
Bottom line im getting LED light accuracy+T5 power+ BIG footprint+ evenly produced light=WIN

So far my setup seems to be Working well... Pioneering something has only theory/and here-say to go on...as long as my assumptions are based on good theory it works!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 5, 2011)

reverof said:


> new little test I through up... I had a mixture of aqurium bulbs, non of these are strict actinic bulbs, total of 6 bulbs put in a 8 bulb fixture, 1 is a regular bloom bulb the layout goes as such
> 
> life-glo (full spectrum bulb) - bloom 6500k - life-glo - life-glo - aquasun ( 3 peaks at 420/540/600 reddish in color) - empty - aquasun - empty
> 
> ...


Is it the UVL Aquasun? 
AquaSun 10,000K T5
These bulbs are to be appealing to the eye hence to 500nm range. Rods are maximally sensitive to wavelengths near 500 nm, and play little, if any, role in color vision. In brighter light, such as daylight, vision is photopic: light is detected by cone cells which are responsible for color vision. Cones are sensitive to a range of wavelengths, but are most sensitive to wavelengths near 555 nm. I havent found anything on plants using this spike and wanted to avoid making them test subjects...there are so many 10000k bulbs out there with so many different color combinations i would need 30 or so bulbs  i do plan on finding a "daylight" bulb to add to the mix on my next Veg... 
I will watch closely as I'm sure others will do. +rep for helping the effort!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 5, 2011)

New Updates... Almost half way done! Lights just came on so updates it is! Flowers seem to be sprouting up EVERYWHERE on these plants all the way down to the main stem...I wont be pruning or preening i want the plants to go as far as possible on their own. the speckles of white stuff is DIatomaceous earth... keeps the bugs off.. i noticed some flies....so this will kepp them @ bay! and no chemicals or fowl odor..
I use a wetting agent and spray on .... wit till its done dripping and apply with a duster


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 5, 2011)

Ballasts
http://cgi.ebay.com/TRIDONIC-PCA-2-x-54w-DIGITAL-DIMMABLE-BALLAST-DSI-ECO-/250847573742?pt=UK_BOI_Lights_Lighting_ET&hash=item3a67ae36ee#ht_544wt_1185

Lamp holders for those DIYers out there!
http://cgi.ebay.com/ARCADIA-ULTRASEAL-T5-WATERPROOF-LAMPHOLDERS-IP67-ABT5LL-/250842213171?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item3a675c6b33#ht_500wt_1202


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## reverof (Jul 5, 2011)

I had to do some moving around of my plants yesterday do to what was gonna be over crowding, I will state an auto easy ryder got placed under my actinic bulb around 5pm, within 18 hours that auto grew into the actinic bulb, lights were about 2 inches above her when she was moved to the location... that is a nice sight, could be coincidence, or it could be the mix of light and the much help of the actinic spectrum!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 5, 2011)

no such thing as coincidence! great post!


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## SOCALRP (Jul 5, 2011)

Hey there Prof, 
A question about using DE. My experience with DE is limited to my using it in my swimming pool filter. I have noticed just how fine it is. While I cannot argue with the "inert" or maybe I should say innocuous nature of DE I wonder if due to the fact that is is so fine that it might have an adverse effect of the respiratory rate of your plants by basically clogging the stomata. Also, do you take any special care to avoid dusting on the actual flowers (and would taking that care be exceedingly tedious?), as I could also see the DE as having a diminishing effect on the overall turpenoid production of the plant? Just curious as to your opinions on those two issues.


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 5, 2011)

How far are you keeping your lights from the tops???


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## reverof (Jul 6, 2011)

Pakalolohui... if your asking that question to me, I attempt to keep the light atleast 1.5 inches from the tallest plant, which kinda sucks at the moment, because this one easy ryder is out pacing the entire crowd by about 3-4 inches, about 3 weeks old and pushing 11", 17" including the 1gal pot.


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 6, 2011)

The question is open to all.

You don't see light burn as an issue at being this close to the tops???
What about frying the nugs and hairs being that close???

I do have a fan blowing pretty good on my tops, for fresh air circulation and cooling as well.

The warmest I may get is about 82 or 84 for the last hour or two in the evening before lights out, and this is seldom, it is usually no more than 80. Daytime temps are 73-77 typically.


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## reverof (Jul 6, 2011)

Pakalolohui....
I do not flower with T5's at this time I just veg, but as far as vegging goes there are no ill effects from having a T5 light within an inch or two of a plant. Standard Bloom & Flower T5 bulbs only reach a temp of 125-140F with zero air movement. I h ave had plants literally grow into the bulb and about wrap leaves around the bulb and never even see a brown speck.


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 6, 2011)

I've dropped my 2' T-5 a few times on a few plants and a leaf had grown to a bulb and I do and have had burn spots on my plants. It looks like a ring, burnt, on my leaves where the light dropped, kinda funny in a way.

I've tried to keep about 5" during veg. any closer and the nodes would of been staked on top of each other.
Now in bloom, the average height is 5", about 3" at the very tops and 7"-8" at the under sites.

I will try lowering a bit more but don't want to fry my buds.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 6, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> Hey there Prof,
> A question about using DE. My experience with DE is limited to my using it in my swimming pool filter. I have noticed just how fine it is. While I cannot argue with the "inert" or maybe I should say innocuous nature of DE I wonder if due to the fact that is is so fine that it might have an adverse effect of the respiratory rate of your plants by basically clogging the stomata. Also, do you take any special care to avoid dusting on the actual flowers (and would taking that care be exceedingly tedious?), as I could also see the DE as having a diminishing effect on the overall turpenoid production of the plant? Just curious as to your opinions on those two issues.


No worries its silica... not talc. the tiny "shards" of fossilized diatomes cant block stomata. viewed under a microscope its extremly "sharp" which in turn cuts the exoskeleton of the insect and it basically dehydrates to death..... 
Im not worried if i get it on the plants as DE has been used for longer than you can imagine with no ill effects.. it wont "burn" and cant cause you harm in any way... matter of fact its "food grade" 
im not coating the plants in a blanket but a small duster like device




that is as fine as blush powder... the spots of it were my feeble attempt to hand apply...its easily blown off the leaves.. now a few days later no flies , no poison, no neem!"smelly shit" no sm90 either! BTW you can grow in DE as well as its organic and fill of crevices and makes great reusable growing medium.http://www.diatomitecanada.com/hydroponics-using-diatomite.htm


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 6, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> The question is open to all.
> 
> You don't see light burn as an issue at being this close to the tops???
> What about frying the nugs and hairs being that close???
> ...


Low as possible actually right now one of my buds is 1" from my bulb and no issues...but usually as close as possible on that front...if i have to ill train the tallest buds down so i can get the light closer!


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## iNFID3L (Jul 7, 2011)

i am in the uk and out of work, i cant decide if i want a 400 hps lamp, or one of these ? 

i can add more later.... can anyone please PLEASE advise a noob ?


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## PetFlora (Jul 7, 2011)

*Infid3l: *I do not think a single 400 hps can provide the foot print coverage of a 2 X 4 HO T 5. hth.


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## iNFID3L (Jul 7, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Infid3l: *I do not think a single 400 hps can provide the foot print coverage of a 2 X 4 HO T 5. hth.


i dont have room for 2x 4 HO t5.

and im only wanting to grow 2 at a time so 4 is do-able, but not 8

also, im having difficulty findin t5 bulbs in the uk that offer the same nm as the UVL bulbs, ahhhhhh

i might just have to get a hps after all
either that or just some 3k t5's and see what happens...


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 7, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Low as possible actually right now one of my buds is 1" from my bulb and no issues...but usually as close as possible on that front...if i have to ill train the tallest buds down so i can get the light closer!


I wish I had room to tie down. I need more room to spread out.

I did lower the lights yesterday I will see how they did when the lights come on, and maybe lower more if I can.


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## reverof (Jul 8, 2011)

PakaloloHui....
What strain are you growing there? Have you grown it before? Hows the yield?


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## reverof (Jul 8, 2011)

Prof.... As far as the Aquasun bulb goes, main reason I put it in was because I had the bulbs, but their spectrum isnt horrible. It is a tri band spectrum and has 3 peaks, 425nm, 545nm and around 600nm.... You can see spectrum chart on all UVL Bulbs at http://uvlco.com/UVLI_catalog.pdf

Though the Aquasun has a almost redish hue to it, it seems to put out more blue 400-500 than anything else. Though it is by the sense wasting some electricty its a bulb I had (free) and does offer some good 400-500 spectrum with a peak of 425.


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 8, 2011)

The strain is White Shark. I have not grown it before. I had someone grow for me for a year until I got situated, and got the seeds from some of the medicine.

It looks like it will pull off just over 2oz. under my 6 bulb T-5. It still has maybe 20+ days left. It can still bulk up on me yet and give me more than I anticipate.


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## reverof (Jul 8, 2011)

A 400 watt HPS can cover close to a 2x4 area... it does quite well covering a good 3x3 area... I have a 4x6 room for vegging and presently just have my 1 400 watt HPS on, and it covers the area pretty good (4x4) I dont really put anything outside a 3x3 area though coz I dont need to right now, if I did I would move the girls around though as to sharing the main spots of light.


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## reverof (Jul 8, 2011)

Here is an update of the girls... all seem to be doing quite well, as previous posts 1 Auto Easy Ryder is really out pacing the bunch at almost 14 inches. I have begun putting her in my 12/12 room during the day for some HPS light but she goes back under T5's shortly before 12/12 goes out. here are a few pics


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## reverof (Jul 9, 2011)

Just wanted to give a quick update I found interesting... The first picture in the above post is the same view as the picture I am attaching to this post, check out the growth and leave movement changes in less than 24 hours... The big plant is actually in between the 2 aquasun bulbs, he actually grew about 3/4 of an inch maybe more and is within 1/2 inch of the fixture now. She was not in that location prior to last night.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 10, 2011)

reverof said:


> Just wanted to give a quick update I found interesting... The first picture in the above post is the same view as the picture I am attaching to this post, check out the growth and leave movement changes in less than 24 hours... The big plant is actually in between the 2 aquasun bulbs, he actually grew about 3/4 of an inch maybe more and is within 1/2 inch of the fixture now. She was not in that location prior to last night.
> 
> View attachment 1683315


Great post I will post updates, ive been pulling extra shifts to raise capital to buy a larger tent and more light! but i will be going offline after this grow for some time just until i get a new setup... i will open a new thread.. 
I hope i have inspired others to be open to information and ideas about alternative light sources!
This grow has taught me lots and i will tweak my setup as such! for all you t5 growers out there these lights are better than you can even imagine! and they're not going anywhere anytime soon!


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## reverof (Jul 10, 2011)

Pr0f,
When do you expect to harvest? I am very curious how your light setup yields... I know yield wasnt a big part of your test, but this can ultimately help in deciding factors for many T5 pondering users and your alternative lighting theory is just another great feat for the T5 world!


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## Millsie (Jul 10, 2011)

reverof said:


> Pr0f,
> When do you expect to harvest? I am very curious how your light setup yields... I know yield wasnt a big part of your test, but this can ultimately help in deciding factors for many T5 pondering users and your alternative lighting theory is just another great feat for the T5 world!


Curious as well, my 400w might be creating too much heat for my grow box, its either spend another 100-200 and hopefully make it okay temp wise or cut my losses now/sell everything and get a 6-8bulb T5 but then sourcing the bulbs becomes a real problem.. My country really doesn't have the variety that USA does(T5 bulb wise)..


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## reverof (Jul 10, 2011)

Millsie...
To be honest T5 bloom & flowering bulbs, in atleast 8 bulb configurations do seem to do pretty good for vegging & flowering. I have always flowered with T5's and had great success and the lack of heat is absolutely awesome. I have not however bloomed with T5's yet, but have read great things. I am picking up some new bulbs this week to place a 8 bulb T5 fixture into my flower room. Theoretically T5's should blow a HPS out of the water, especially on a SOG grow. Think of it like this, T5 light can be kept within 1-2" off the plants tops with no burning, a HPS light must be kept (without glass shield) about 12" away from the plants tops. There is a lot of lumen loss in that. Though with Pr0f grow he is proving lumens have less to do with growth and actual spectrum have even more to do with the final product, I no doubt this to be true with vegging, as even I have seen differences using other types of bulbs.

I would recommend going ahead and getting a T5 fixture, I do believe you will be happy with it.


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## Tentgremlin (Jul 10, 2011)

interesting dude fair play to you.


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## novice11 (Jul 10, 2011)

I feel there is very little respect here on RIU for the T5. I made a suggestion that there be a T5 subforum, and the response was that I should look in the CFL section.....but CFLs are NOT T5s. Like telling me to look in the Camaro section for Corvette posts, LOL.

I also think that the Pr0fesseur is doing ground breaking work in his analytical approach to lighting.


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## Hasbroh (Jul 10, 2011)

reverof said:


> Pr0f,
> When do you expect to harvest? I am very curious how your light setup yields... I know yield wasnt a big part of your test, but this can ultimately help in deciding factors for many T5 pondering users and your alternative lighting theory is just another great feat for the T5 world!


In the end it's all about the buds. Aside from quality I'm sure we are all hoping for decent yield results. I really can't see Prof's yield being any less than leds yield - to say the very least. They are certainly robust enough looking. And it is only the first run. Further development should improve yield some more me thinks, me hopes.


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## hyroot (Jul 10, 2011)

* reverof 
*


> *I have always flowered with T5's and had great success and the lack of heat is absolutely awesome. I have not however bloomed with T5's yet, but have read great things.*


That's a contradiction. flower and bloom mean the same thing. so have you flowered with T5's or not?


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## reverof (Jul 10, 2011)

hasbro... I am just curious as far as the yields go with his specific lighting... I know T5's with regular bloom/grow bulbs yield pretty decent, T5's with cfl or T5 side lights yield even better


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## Hasbroh (Jul 10, 2011)

Yeah, I'm really interested in more lights up top and side lighting...


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 10, 2011)

reverof said:


> Pr0f,
> When do you expect to harvest? I am very curious how your light setup yields... I know yield wasnt a big part of your test, but this can ultimately help in deciding factors for many T5 pondering users and your alternative lighting theory is just another great feat for the T5 world!


 I expect to harvest in 5 more weeks... again this isnt about total weight.. as its 2 different strands i have NEVER grown... total organic grow trying to eliminate growth factors and just analyze T5 statistics.. you have to understand that when you are doing research your trying to prove ONE hypothesis only mine is t5 ability not weight. weight is TRUELY determined by strain and growing ability... anyone who says otherwise has no concept of the scientific method and needs to go back to school.. you also have to understand this is the FIRST documented T5 grow in this method..... it takes years of documentation to prove a theory... so one grow will not be enough... It is up to the followers of this thread to continue and vary/replicate my research.... I have a limited budget, and a small area to test this... others may have different combinations of setups which will add to the total exploration of this method. I urge others to use truth and research to debunk the old hid is better mentality!


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## Hasbroh (Jul 10, 2011)

Prof, I am aware how research works. We are all just hoping that yield relative to strain will be encouraging.


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## reverof (Jul 10, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I expect to harvest in 5 more weeks... again this isnt about total weight.. as its 2 different strands i have NEVER grown... total organic grow trying to eliminate growth factors and just analyze T5 statistics.. you have to understand that when you are doing research your trying to prove ONE hypothesis only mine is t5 ability not weight. weight is TRUELY determined by strain and growing ability... anyone who says otherwise has no concept of the scientific method and needs to go back to school.. you also have to understand this is the FIRST documented T5 grow in this method..... it takes years of documentation to prove a theory... so one grow will not be enough... It is up to the followers of this thread to continue and vary/replicate my research.... I have a limited budget, and a small area to test this... others may have different combinations of setups which will add to the total exploration of this method. I urge others to use truth and research to debunk the old hid is better mentality!


Now I know why so few people will follow this thread or pipe up.... I read this thread from start to finish, I know what you are testing, point is regardless if the plants grow 10 feet tall, if they yield crap then the lights are crap for the use of flowering mj.... I have no hopes or dreams that you are gonna get 10oz a plant, but curious as to what the yield actually is. if your yield averages .75-1oz from each plant then I find the lights to be very probable, being you were testing for not harvest but growth and finishing of the plant... the only true way to know if they flower correctly is to see the end result. If you dont agree with that, then maybe you need to go back to school, as good growth with little yield means nothing as this is a forum and testing grounds for cultivation of mj not roses.


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## SOCALRP (Jul 11, 2011)

reverof said:


> Now I know why so few people will follow this thread or pipe up.... I read this thread from start to finish, I know what you are testing, point is regardless if the plants grow 10 feet tall, if they yield crap then the lights are crap for the use of flowering mj.... I have no hopes or dreams that you are gonna get 10oz a plant, but curious as to what the yield actually is. if your yield averages .75-1oz from each plant then I find the lights to be very probable, being you were testing for not harvest but growth and finishing of the plant... the only true way to know if they flower correctly is to see the end result. If you dont agree with that, then maybe you need to go back to school, as good growth with little yield means nothing as this is a forum and testing grounds for cultivation of mj not roses.


Alright REV and and HAS, I totally see what you guys are getting at. I volunteer in a dispensary and I can tell you that my highest quality meds go out the door the fastest and that my lowest quality meds sit of the shelf. While I am slightly confused by pr0f's latest post he certainly makes valid points. Just looking at that post (and yes I have read the entire thread as well), it looks like pr0f is saying that he wants to analyze the t5's "ability" to produce higher quality within any given strain. Now, as pr0f is using the scientific method and this is just his first trial, we will have to be patient to see the final result. A strain analysis should be performed after harvest/curing to determine t5's performance and ability to produce higher cannabanoid levels than we might otherwise achieve. Or maybe after analysis we will find the ratio of THC to CBD is closer than it might otherwise be, or vice versa, thereby indicating what kind of attributes that we look for in our medicine are best met by one lighting method or another.

It's very plain to see that we all want to produce the very highest quality herb with the least amount of pain an effort-- that just intrinsically makes sense. Looking at the pics of pr0f's grow so far it's pretty clear that flower development certainly isn't lacking-- those are some nice looking colas. From having read through the thread it makes intuitive sense that quality would only be augmented by providing the plants within very defined spectrums of light that have been shown to enhance growth. As far as degradation of quality as a result of spectrum restriction (which is basically what you said, REV, in your latest post), I haven't done the research myself, but that phenomenon just doesn't make intuitive sense to me.

I came to this community for the technical threads-- this is the best thread I have seen on lighting. Pr0f's very fastidious approach and method has only served to provide the rest of us an opportunity to observe his trial without risk of financial loss-- thanks pr0f for going out on that limb. I came to this thread because I have had the opportunity doing what I do to see just how much fools gold is actually out there in the mmj world, I want to explore new cultivation techniques to produce the absolute highest quality medicine for my patients. The game changer came for me when I found out that my big sis, at the age of 36, was just diagnosed with an aggressive and hereditary form of colon cancer. This thread holds personal value for me for that reason. 

I am similar to pr0f in terms of being a real student of the game-- admittedly I just started actually doing my homework. I have my indoor finishing right now and then I will have to concentrate on my outdoor, but I plan on joining in to test the efficacy of this lighting method. I guess I am somewhat fortunate in that I do and will continue to have the means to experiment. I am planning on doing rdwc/scrog/T5. My research has got me to this setup. I wish I had the logistical resources to make this happen right now, but I have already committed a lot of resources to the outdoor, so it's gonna be a few moe month before I can go full bore on my personal experiment, but I really hope some of theother folks that have been following this thread start performing their own tests.

I count myself as lucky that we have guys here like pr0f and uncle ben that put in the time to do the research, so I kind of feel duty bound to that effort to reciprocate and put in a little effort of my own. I know that together we can share enough knowledge to raise the level of the entire game. Sure, if quality goes up overall and the market gets flooded with this product it will drive down prices, but let's face it boys and girls-- if you're trying to do this to get rich you're really no different than the fat cats that work for big Pharma (well maybe just a little given that when you become a CEO or an exec for a major pharmaceutical firm you don't have a huge target on your back for the feds to point at, and let's now even go into the whole cartel thing...)


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## hyroot (Jul 11, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I expect to harvest in 5 more weeks... again this isnt about total weight.. as its 2 different strands i have NEVER grown... total organic grow trying to eliminate growth factors and just analyze T5 statistics.. you have to understand that when you are doing research your trying to prove ONE hypothesis only mine is t5 ability not weight. weight is TRUELY determined by strain and growing ability... anyone who says otherwise has no concept of the scientific method and needs to go back to school.. you also have to understand this is the FIRST documented T5 grow in this method..... it takes years of documentation to prove a theory... so one grow will not be enough... It is up to the followers of this thread to continue and vary/replicate my research.... I have a limited budget, and a small area to test this... others may have different combinations of setups which will add to the total exploration of this method. I urge others to use truth and research to debunk the old hid is better mentality!



If you showed more picture updates weekly. people would probably stop asking about yield over and over. If you stated what strains you are working with and if they are more sativa dominant or indica dominant and how many weeks your strains take from start to finish. People might actually use their own brain power to compare to their own and estimate what you might be getting I actually want to see pics too.I'm anxious to know myself how it's going.


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## isthis2012 (Jul 12, 2011)

Hey man, I've been interested in T5 for a while. How is the heat output? Do you think you could make your setup shorter and keep temps running nicely?

My ideal setup would be T5s and a short, short sea of green, and the whole "shelf" being 2 feet. Do you think thats viable? The goal one day would be stackign 3-4 shelves high.


Thanks for this thread, I'd love to see more work done with T5s, hopefully soon you guys will see my very own T5 "shelf" journal. I think they hold alot of potential. To me their biggest value seems to be how close you can take them to the canopy. So in my ideal world, I'd keep that canopy as short as possible so every single plant gets maximum light penetration top to bottom. Of course this would hurt yields (very very short plants) but I'd hope to make up for it by stacking these shelves vertically. I also want to and will experiment with side lighting, basically engulfing the entire plant in T5 light. I like its low profile, flexibility, and ability to get right in close to the canopy. Heat is my main worry, I know they get hot (I believe they run at 100f?) but until I try them I guess I cant know HOW hot.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 12, 2011)

Shelves have been used for years... in cloning.. ive seen rooms with thousands of clones on shelves... with t5 above them... thing is you MUST adjust your lights as the plants grow.. and shelves are not a good platform to do any serious growing


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 12, 2011)

hyroot said:


> If you showed more picture updates weekly. people would probably stop asking about yield over and over. If you stated what strains you are working with and if they are more sativa dominant or indica dominant and how many weeks your strains take from start to finish. People might actually use their own brain power to compare to their own and estimate what you might be getting I actually want to see pics too.I'm anxious to know myself how it's going.


You do realize i have a journal that answers all your questions by clearly stating my ENTIRE setup... This thread if you started @ the begining and read that I also have mentioned CLEARLY what yield i am expecting is "0" this would not be a thread for those interested in yield. 
IF your interested in learning about how light affects plants, with an untested method, using a new technique, and helping others learn... than your in the right place...
You cant expect results that's not the scientific method... _You expect to fail miserably!_ and thats the POINT! 
I have made no claims as to any yeild expectations..i really dont even care about the plants.. its about the lights!!
PLants are fed organic nutes once a week no ph needed thats it... water....
strains have been stated before
if its 5 weeks in and 5 weeks to go ... do the math...
lastly i think if people READ threads before asking questions they would not have to ask these questions in the pirst place.. i update once a week...
I have a life too you know!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 12, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> Alright REV and and HAS, I totally see what you guys are getting at. I volunteer in a dispensary and I can tell you that my highest quality meds go out the door the fastest and that my lowest quality meds sit of the shelf. While I am slightly confused by pr0f's latest post he certainly makes valid points. Just looking at that post (and yes I have read the entire thread as well), it looks like pr0f is saying that he wants to analyze the t5's "ability" to produce higher quality within any given strain. Now, as pr0f is using the scientific method and this is just his first trial, we will have to be patient to see the final result. A strain analysis should be performed after harvest/curing to determine t5's performance and ability to produce higher cannabanoid levels than we might otherwise achieve. Or maybe after analysis we will find the ratio of THC to CBD is closer than it might otherwise be, or vice versa, thereby indicating what kind of attributes that we look for in our medicine are best met by one lighting method or another.
> 
> It's very plain to see that we all want to produce the very highest quality herb with the least amount of pain an effort-- that just intrinsically makes sense. Looking at the pics of pr0f's grow so far it's pretty clear that flower development certainly isn't lacking-- those are some nice looking colas. From having read through the thread it makes intuitive sense that quality would only be augmented by providing the plants within very defined spectrums of light that have been shown to enhance growth. As far as degradation of quality as a result of spectrum restriction (which is basically what you said, REV, in your latest post), I haven't done the research myself, but that phenomenon just doesn't make intuitive sense to me.
> 
> ...


This is the exact point one WOULD make given he read the entire thread  Thanks for your post... it shows people are absorbing  not just reading the latest couple of posts!
HYPOTHETICAL STATEMENT FOLLOWS:"If joe blow can grow 100lbs of 5%thc and i grow 1 pound of 90%" Doesn't that make mine by the laws of scarcity more expensive? and more desirable like wine, cigars,etc.. its PURE economic principal. I have even stated previously that im not even sure these bulbs WILL perform...and it wouldn't matter what strain i used... its LIGHT I'm testing..


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 12, 2011)

Millsie said:


> Curious as well, my 400w might be creating too much heat for my grow box, its either spend another 100-200 and hopefully make it okay temp wise or cut my losses now/sell everything and get a 6-8bulb T5 but then sourcing the bulbs becomes a real problem.. My country really doesn't have the variety that USA does(T5 bulb wise)..


These bulbs are made mostly in germany ! ans switzerland i think.... uvl is made here though.. you just go the the manufacturers sites the have vendors world wide! remember there are more serious aquariums than pot growers in the world  besides alot of the bulbs you can even find on ebay!


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## mrcryce (Jul 12, 2011)

This is really a phenomenal grow, I did all this research as well but so far cost has prevented me from pulling the trigger so I've been using 4300k fluoros for a while. Wish I found this thread sooner, I think I would have just invested in those bulbs right out the door. I just got a bunch of 420nm and ~420/630nm T5s so I'm real excited about retrofitting them in. (For like $6 each I just couldn't refuse.) 

I am using arrays of 4x24W T5s though so I don't have anywhere near your wattage. However my bulbs each have individual reflectors, which I have not seen in any commercial T5 array yet muahahha!(except for absurdly overpriced T5 arrays for aquariums) I do coco and aero and am planning on running side by sides, so I can't wait to see how my stuff compares to yours! By the way, in my research I ran across an article suggesting that some light in the 500-600nm in addition to red and blue enhances growth. Here is an excerpt from the abstract 

reen supplemental lighting could also offer benefits, since green*light*can better penetrate the*plant*canopy and potentially increase*plant*growth by increasing photosynthesis from the leaves in the lower canopy. In this study, four*light*sources were tested: 1) red and blue LEDs (RB), 2) red and blue LEDs with green fluorescent lamps (RGB), 3) green fluorescent lamps (GF), and 4) cool-white fluorescent lamps (CWF), that provided 0%, 24%, 86%, and 51 % of the total PPF in the green region of the*spectrum, respectively. The addition of 24 % green*light*(500 to 600 nm) to red and blue LEDs (RGB treatment) enhanced*plant*growth. The RGB treatment plants produced more biomass than the plants grown under the cool-white fluorescent lamps (CWF treatment), a commonly tested*light*source used as a broad-spectrum*control.

Not sure if that means its worth it for me to throw some green in the mix too


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## hyroot (Jul 12, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> You do realize i have a journal that answers all your questions by clearly stating my ENTIRE setup... This thread if you started @ the begining and read that I also have mentioned CLEARLY what yield i am expecting is "0" this would not be a thread for those interested in yield.
> IF your interested in learning about how light affects plants, with an untested method, using a new technique, and helping others learn... than your in the right place...
> You cant expect results that's not the scientific method... _You expect to fail miserably!_ and thats the POINT!
> I have made no claims as to any yeild expectations..i really dont even care about the plants.. its about the lights!!
> ...



I have read your journal and I wasn't referring to your set up. the plants themselves. No where in there do you say what strains your are working with. You just say it's two strands you never worked with. You don't say actual strain and whether they are clone or seed or type whether indica or sativa. If its taking 10 weeks it's obviously sativa. I never asked about yield. I just said things you can do so people can estimate by comparison. people know strains so by more updated pics people can compare. height, thickness of stalk, node spacing, bud size and how frosty they look and estimate if they have done that strain or seen it done. That's all. All I said was update once a week. Not everyday. that didn't really answer anything I said except for time span of growth. Also, if you don't care about the plants then whats the point of this experiment. That's an OXYMORON and a CONTRADICTION. If you don't care then you don't know what the T5 is really capable of doing. Then you just wasted time and money and there's nothing scientific about that. The plants and light go hand in hand. If the plants end up shitty then its a failure. Yield and quality should be a factor in your experiment that's just retarded to think otherwise. Then there really is no experiment.


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## brainalive (Jul 12, 2011)

Hey All!

Noob alert! (duh). I'm a PhD student, studying biology (with a physics & mathematics background), though I'm not a botanist. The pr0f's approach really appeals to me! I'm going to try and advance things a little bit on the experimental side, once I'm satisfied that I have something to add. For now, a bit of an analytical contribution, and some more points for discussion.

I used bitmap-images of emission spectra of various bulbs (found these by following the pr0f's lead), and imported them into MATLAB (a piece of software used primarily by scientists and engineers for numerical computing). I was able to extract reasonable estimates of all the curves (x & y data). These are plotted here:



Then, I estimated the over-all illumination spectrum for the combination of bulbs that the pr0f indicated he uses for veg & flowering (respectively). This was achieved by simply summing the emission values at each wavelength, and dividing the resulting intensity vs. wavelength curve by its maximum value, yielding a relative intensity vs. wavelength curve:



I think that pr0f has done a really excellent job in putting these sets of bulbs together. However, I thought I would validate this opinion with some analysis.

What I've done (above) in combining the spectra from multiple bulbs, suggests a route to searching for an "optimal" combination of bulbs (one that most closely matches the action spectrum of photosynthesis). This is quite a straightforward thing to do, as we have the spectra from all the bulbs, and the desired spectrum. This is a simple linear equation which can be solved using linear algebra.

The only other wrinkle is which action spectrum to use? There were two images of action spectra that pr0f posted early on in this thread, so I decided to use both. Here is a plot of those action spectra, the pr0f's veg/flow spectra again (without components, just for comparison) and the two fits that I came up with (one for each action spectrum):



The bulb combinations that this analysis suggested were: (for action spectrum 1) 1.0373 x ATI Actinic, 1.3633 x KorallenZucht Fiji Purple, 0.2249 x UVL AquaSun, 0.1560 x UVL RedSun & (for action spectrum 2) 1.0047 x ATI Actinic, 0.1991 x ATI Blue Plus, 0.2575 x ATI Purple Plus, 1.2164 x KorallenZucht Fiji Purple, 0.3465 x UVL AquaSun, 0.1698 x UVL RedSun.

Note that I don't consider these reasonable or recommended in any way! In fact, to achieve these sorts of fractional illuminances, one would have to use filters, or a very large number of bulbs with small fractions in each of the categories corresponding to the fractions indicated in the analysis. Rather, I was trying to keep in the academic spirit of this thread and explore what the math had to tell us. What the math DOES show is (again) that the pr0f's setup is just great, note that neither of the "optimal" spectra do much better (if at all) approximating either of the action spectra. Why did I do this then? To satisfy my suspicious mind! And for the fun of it (yep, I'm a huge nerd, and proud of it).

Finally, some thoughts about action spectra. An action spectrum is obtained by keeping a plant in a sealed environment where CO2 use can be monitored. The use of C02 being a good approximation of the rate of photosynthesis. We did a very simple version of this in a physiology lab that I was the TA for several times, using spinach, and comparing the rate of photosynthesis under blue light to the rate under red light (using colored filters). The reason that I mention this is that it is important to understand that without actually performing this sort of empirical test of the effects of various wavelengths of light on a cannabis plant, it is essentially impossible to know the action spectrum. This is one reason why it is very likely to see images of "the action spectrum of photosynthesis" that are very different: they're derived from empirical observations of different plants. I've been scouring various journals of botany to find out if somebody has actually collected data that would reveal the action spectrum of photosynthesis in cannabis, but to no avail. I'm particularly interested in the possibility of non-linear interactions between wavelengths (this has been mentioned above, the idea that green light can stimulate photosynthesis in the presence of high-intensity red light).

I have found some nuggets of information, however, that are worth-while in relating:

(1) "Action spectra for the promotion of flowering by long periods of irradiation in the red and far-red regions of the spectrum have been determined by the use of interference filters. The percentage floral initiation was greatest at 710720 um for both wheat and rape [seed]"

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1399-3054.1968.tb07348.x/abstract

(2) "The concentration of cannabinoids in Cannabis sativa L. is correlated with high ultraviolet-B (UV-B) radiation environments."

http://www.osti.gov/energycitations/product.biblio.jsp?osti_id=6696642

(3) "The concentration of &#916;9-tetrahydrocannabinol (&#916;9-THC), but not of other cannabinoids, in both leaf and floral tissues increased with UV-B dose in drug-type plants."

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1751-1097.1987.tb04757.x/abstract

Thus, finally:

It seems like perhaps it would be worthwhile to get some far-red in the spectrum to promote flowering (although the data in ref 1 are obvs not from cannabis, and I know that Fiji Purple definitely gets some in there). It also seems like including some UV-B (315 nm280 nm) during flowering might increase THC production. Thoughts?


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## Hasbroh (Jul 12, 2011)

brainalive said:


> Thoughts?


Did you throw this together during lunch break?

Really impressive, I need to re-read it a couple more times. Thanks for your efforts!


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## SOCALRP (Jul 12, 2011)

BRAINALIVE, BRAINALIVE, BRAINALIVE!!!!!

Yeah, I totally had to capitalize and make gratuitous use of the punctuation marks to express how stoked I am that you jumped in. Awesome post, +rep & friend request coming.

Bravo!


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## isthis2012 (Jul 12, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Shelves have been used for years... in cloning.. ive seen rooms with thousands of clones on shelves... with t5 above them... thing is you MUST adjust your lights as the plants grow.. and shelves are not a good platform to do any serious growing


I know they are used for cloning, I am talking about flowering a sea of green with them though. Nice to see support for T5 users in a T5 thread..wow. Why are they "not a good platform", its not hard to stick planks of wood under your try and raise/lower it as needed.

The idea is using vertical space efficiently. If you only have a 2x4' area but you can use up to 8-9 feet of vertical, you could use 3-4 shelves where the average HPS user only uses 1 "shelf" in a typical 7 foot tall cabinet. 


Will T5 outperform HPS in a 2x4 foot area for flowering? Hell no. Will 2, 3, 4 shelves of T5 outperform it in the same floor space? That is my goal. These are a nice option for people with limitted space, ie you were willing to do a 2000-3000w grow but didnt have floor space for it, but had space for 3-4 vertical shelves of T5. You could do 1600 watts vertically in far less space then an average 1000w HPS uses (avg 4x4' table). Nice to see you being open minded ...


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## SOCALRP (Jul 12, 2011)

isthis2012 said:


> Hey man, I've been interested in T5 for a while. How is the heat output? Do you think you could make your setup shorter and keep temps running nicely?
> 
> My ideal setup would be T5s and a short, short sea of green, and the whole "shelf" being 2 feet. Do you think thats viable? The goal one day would be stackign 3-4 shelves high.
> 
> ...



Once again have to agree with the pr0f-- this time concerning the shelf idea. However, I am happy to report that you are not going to have heat issues. We veg all of our mothers using t5's, and when my patients ask me about heat I turn the fixture towards them and hold the bulb with my bare hand (yes I make sure to clean the bulb) for SEVERAL seconds. This very ability is what initially intrigued about T5's, and then it all went from there are for so many different reasons I am such a hardcore advocate for T5's now. After my outdoor finishes I am going to build out a lab in my house and do 4'x4' scrog in rdwc, and I intend on using a 16-bulb fixture for each one. I have yet to do the actual math on the lights, but just a rough estimate I would say 864w of T5 @ 96lumens/watt roughly 2in. away from my canopy will give me light intensity on the order of 1600W of HPS @ 2ft. Yeah, it will be damn expensive (about $800), but have you ever seen someone pack 1600w into that small of an area? Oh yeah, I will be doing the side lighting as well. I mean, hell, I don't want much- just colas the size of baby arms all the was to the base on my plants!


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## isthis2012 (Jul 12, 2011)

So do you think its just not a viable idea? Which part specifically I'm curious about. Plants veg/clone fine in shelf lit T5 systems. I think its easy to get the proximity of the bulbs to plants dialed down easily through flowering. I'm not sure what part you guys think isn't viable about it.

I'm not expecting 400w of T5 to rival 400w of HPS if thats what people think, I know it wont. And to be honest i'm inexperienced so I'm genuinetely curious. To me in my head it seems like this awesome idea, granted it uses a ton of electricity (imagine even 3 shelves at 400w of T5 power). But what I like is that 400w is spread nicely across 2x4 feet, and you have say 3 of those shelves. 

Do bud plants not respond well to being grown exceptionally short? I dont mind very low yielding plants (3-10g per plant) but I'd be growing like 100 of them, so as long as the quality is there I'm happy. I'd hope that 3x400w T5 shelves could consistently pull over a pound of chronic, but I could be wrong here as alot of this is speculation in my inexperienced head. Lemme know what you guys think.

I think the hardest part will be keeping plants short. I know you can LST or scrog, but what I'm thinking is just taking very short clones and flowering very early. I'd like to keep the entire plants height under a foot.

If its possible to keep plants under a foot, in pots no taller then 3-4", how much vertical height do you guys think I'd need each shelf to be? I figure I need at least 2" or so above the lights, if not 4" to let them vent out a bit. And about 2-3" above canopy. And give thickness of a low profile fixture about 2-3" as well.

So pot (4") + plant (12") + air (2") + fixture (3") + air (4") = 25".


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## hyroot (Jul 12, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> Once again have to agree with the pr0f-- this time concerning the shelf idea. However, I am happy to report that you are not going to have heat issues. We veg all of our mothers using t5's, and when my patients ask me about heat I turn the fixture towards them and hold the bulb with my bare hand (yes I make sure to clean the bulb) for SEVERAL seconds. This very ability is what initially intrigued about T5's, and then it all went from there are for so many different reasons I am such a hardcore advocate for T5's now. After my outdoor finishes I am going to build out a lab in my house and do 4'x4' scrog in rdwc, and I intend on using a 16-bulb fixture for each one. I have yet to do the actual math on the lights, but just a rough estimate I would say 864w of T5 @ 96lumens/watt roughly 2in. away from my canopy will give me light intensity on the order of 1600W of HPS @ 2ft. Yeah, it will be damn expensive (about $800), but have you ever seen someone pack 1600w into that small of an area? Oh yeah, I will be doing the side lighting as well. I mean, hell, I don't want much- just colas the size of baby arms all the was to the base on my plants!



great deal on Quantum Badboy T5's

http://www.thehydrosource.com/Lighting/Fluorescent_Lighting/T5_Fixtures/Quantum_T5_Badboy?zenid=fca33ddb99d6601705f1087efc73943e


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## SOCALRP (Jul 12, 2011)

hyroot said:


> great deal on Quantum Badboy T5's
> 
> http://www.thehydrosource.com/Lighting/Fluorescent_Lighting/T5_Fixtures/Quantum_T5_Badboy?zenid=fca33ddb99d6601705f1087efc73943e


16 lights though homie!!!


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## SOCALRP (Jul 13, 2011)

isthis2012 said:


> So do you think its just not a viable idea? Which part specifically I'm curious about. Plants veg/clone fine in shelf lit T5 systems. I think its easy to get the proximity of the bulbs to plants dialed down easily through flowering. I'm not sure what part you guys think isn't viable about it.
> 
> I'm not expecting 400w of T5 to rival 400w of HPS if thats what people think, I know it wont. And to be honest i'm inexperienced so I'm genuinetely curious. To me in my head it seems like this awesome idea, granted it uses a ton of electricity (imagine even 3 shelves at 400w of T5 power). But what I like is that 400w is spread nicely across 2x4 feet, and you have say 3 of those shelves.
> 
> ...


Hey 2012!!!

First off, I like that you are really enthusiastic about learning, and any tidbit of advice that I can give you comes so free-ly. I definitely like the fact that you are thinking outside of the box, wanting to stack your harvests and what not, but I don't think that's a very viable option in the long run. We know that you could obviously run T5's right over the top of any given canopy and that the proximity of your light source relative to the top of your canopy would be ideal, but there are other factors at play which play with your verticality (is that really a word?).

Here me out: You have 9ft. to work with vertically, and you want 4 shelves. That means from top to bottom you have no more than 26" per shelf. NOW, the fixtures alone account for 2". Now we're down to a 24" ceiling. I know you are willing to grow "small" plants, but I would have to question their overall viability given that plants so small would have inherently small root structures, thus making then hyper-vulnerable to various stresses. Even if you were to sog or scrog you still have to account for the root structure of the plant and you have to allow that root ball to seek out nutes. Even in a 3" basket you have to have some sort of a res that is 6" deep total, meaning that you can't go more than 18" up without hitting your light. That means if you're gonna try to scrog that you would literally have to take your clones and train them within the first 2 to 3 inches of their life to take to the scrog due to the fact that once you change the photo period to induce flowering you're gonna have to deal with the stretch.

While you're idea is both admirable and intriguing, I just don't see it as being viable overall. Your theory is correct, but the practical application, unfortunately, seems only plausible at best.

I personally am interested in max yields with limited sq. ftg. and thimk that this thread provides some key info to make that happen. Stay tuned for more!!!!

Peace and Love!!


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## BlackMesa (Jul 13, 2011)

Just out of curiosity, why didn't you grow a strain that you regularly deal with so you could get a basic idea if the lights produce more than your average yield just to answer the question that has the biggest impact? It seems like this testing method is setup to be inconclusive...

I am interested in experiments however so don't take it the wrong way. I am also curious that since your so close to the LED spectrum if you will end up with LED grow behavior such as higher resin production and shorter flowering time which both seem to be a growing trend.


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## SOCALRP (Jul 13, 2011)

BlackMesa said:


> Just out of curiosity, why didn't you grow a strain that you regularly deal with so you could get a basic idea if the lights produce more than your average yield just to answer the question that has the biggest impact? It seems like this testing method is setup to be inconclusive...
> 
> I am interested in experiments however so don't take it the wrong way. I am also curious that since your so close to the LED spectrum if you will end up with LED grow behavior such as higher resin production and shorter flowering time which both seem to be a growing trend.


If you are following the empirical method then strain at this point is not yet relevant. I believe, although I do not speak for or on pr0f's behalf, that he is initially testing the efficacy of narrow spectrum lighting as far as it effects photosynthetic rates during veg and flower and how the flower structure turns out. I volunteer at a medical dispensary and I talk to folks all day long about growing. Most people (and I mean the VAST majority) still rep HID's really hard and I have to explain a little bit of the science to them in order for them to wrap their heads around the idea of T5 even being capable of delivering a comparable amount of light in the right portion of the spectrum as an HPS does. That is a function of the fact that to this point if you go to hydro stores you're not going to see the type of bulb variety that you'll see in an aquarium supply store.

pr0f's really blazing a trail here. I remember 15 years ago when I was first starting out and folks would literally jack commercial hps light off of buildings and poles (I grew flouro back then at it pretty much sucked); everyone knew that hps was good for flowering, but very few people knew why. Although the lumen output may have been the same as what you could have bought, those bulbs throw light in a portion of the spectrum that has since been proven ineffective during flowering. To this day you can go online and buy a 400W hps bulb made by GE for around 15 bucks, or you could save yourself the time and just literally light your cash on fire because those things are worthless.

I think everyone here wants to rush the process (it's natural, so no one should feel bad-- afterall, the last 2 weeks of flowering are kind of like a kid waiting to be picked up to go to disneyland). Due to space and time limitations I am unable to jump on this experimental bandwagon for four months, AND IT'S KILLING ME!!! When I do though, you can bet your last dollar that I am going to address some of the other future issues that we're all curious about-- I will be working with familiar strains, the lineage of which I can trace quickly back to oaksterdam; we have sent these strains out already to get tested and are cultivating them already for our patients. The recipes on these strains are totally dialed in, we know what our yield per watt is (we generally get .8 to .9 grams per watt on the low yielders, and 1.1 to 1.2 on the higher yielders), hoew the flower structure turns out and so forth.

It's not reasonable to expect pr0f to do all of the legwork alone. The man's got a life, a job, and bills to pay, just like all of us. Let's not forget that this is a community, a collective, and when we all work together we achieve the greatest possible results. Eventhough this thread began quite some time ago it had to be shut down for quite some time and is effectively only a few months old. I am looking forward to seeing where this all lead a year down the road. I should have at least 2 if not 3 harvests completed by then-- and yeah, I'm willing to shell out the gram and a half along with $50 to get the labwork done. All good things in due time my amigos!

Peace and Love!


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## SOCALRP (Jul 13, 2011)

hyroot said:


> great deal on Quantum Badboy T5's
> 
> http://www.thehydrosource.com/Lighting/Fluorescent_Lighting/T5_Fixtures/Quantum_T5_Badboy?zenid=fca33ddb99d6601705f1087efc73943e


Brotha, that's a SMOKIN deal on that fixture!! Good looking out! I just happen to be kinda blessed and fortunate to have a good working relationship with a hydro shop and I pay nowhere near retail, but if I did that's def. where I would go.


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## hyroot (Jul 13, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> Brotha, that's a SMOKIN deal on that fixture!! Good looking out! I just happen to be kinda blessed and fortunate to have a good working relationship with a hydro shop and I pay nowhere near retail, but if I did that's def. where I would go.



Just use that place to negotiate your price. I'm in Cali and I've used HTG's prices to negotiate. Also hydro source, their ebay store is cheaper and free shipping.


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## isthis2012 (Jul 13, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> Hey 2012!!!
> 
> First off, I like that you are really enthusiastic about learning, and any tidbit of advice that I can give you comes so free-ly. I definitely like the fact that you are thinking outside of the box, wanting to stack your harvests and what not, but I don't think that's a very viable option in the long run. We know that you could obviously run T5's right over the top of any given canopy and that the proximity of your light source relative to the top of your canopy would be ideal, but there are other factors at play which play with your verticality (is that really a word?).
> 
> ...


Good to know, thanks!

I am having second thoughts anyways, after reading of laws and such, I doubt I would ever get caught but it is a risk. And sadly (stupidly) in the eyes of the law, 100 small plants is a far more serious offense then a few large ones, even if they both yield the same amount of pot. Law enforcement around here also likes to say each plant has $1000 street value, whether its a 6" clone or a 6' pine tree. So for the near future I'm going to shift my efforts into growing large plants while I learn to grow better..not giving up on the idea though. Just for now I dont think I'll be building shelves of flowering pots. I was thinking though, you guys are probably right, 4 shelves under an average ceiling probably wouldn't cut it. I still think 3 would be viable though


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## Dubnificent (Jul 13, 2011)

I'll post a 16 x 24watt (8 horizontal 4x2 vertical) grow in a few months. I want to tweak the proffs spec.s to include more UVB. I've got 16 2 footers will listen to ideas. Great post or thread Prof. I'm a fan. Been growing wit t5's for a while veg & flower I do alright. Have heat problems occasionally but more specifically have bulb degradation issues with the standard issue from the local hydro stores. They appear to only be good for one grow. Shoot me your configs. with more uvb, please. Thanks for your thread.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 13, 2011)

mrcryce said:


> This is really a phenomenal grow, I did all this research as well but so far cost has prevented me from pulling the trigger so I've been using 4300k fluoros for a while. Wish I found this thread sooner, I think I would have just invested in those bulbs right out the door. I just got a bunch of 420nm and ~420/630nm T5s so I'm real excited about retrofitting them in. (For like $6 each I just couldn't refuse.)
> 
> I am using arrays of 4x24W T5s though so I don't have anywhere near your wattage. However my bulbs each have individual reflectors, which I have not seen in any commercial T5 array yet muahahha!(except for absurdly overpriced T5 arrays for aquariums) I do coco and aero and am planning on running side by sides, so I can't wait to see how my stuff compares to yours! By the way, in my research I ran across an article suggesting that some light in the 500-600nm in addition to red and blue enhances growth. Here is an excerpt from the abstract
> 
> ...


In my journal i link to the truth about green light a study done by phd's.. its an interesting read!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 13, 2011)

isthis2012 said:


> I know they are used for cloning, I am talking about flowering a sea of green with them though. Nice to see support for T5 users in a T5 thread..wow. Why are they "not a good platform", its not hard to stick planks of wood under your try and raise/lower it as needed.
> 
> The idea is using vertical space efficiently. If you only have a 2x4' area but you can use up to 8-9 feet of vertical, you could use 3-4 shelves where the average HPS user only uses 1 "shelf" in a typical 7 foot tall cabinet.
> 
> Will T5 outperform HPS in a 2x4 foot area for flowering? Hell no. Will 2, 3, 4 shelves of T5 outperform it in the same floor space? That is my goal. These are a nice option for people with limitted space, ie you were willing to do a 2000-3000w grow but didnt have floor space for it, but had space for 3-4 vertical shelves of T5. You could do 1600 watts vertically in far less space then an average 1000w HPS uses (avg 4x4' table). Nice to see you being open minded ...


Vertical grow systems are designed to be easy to clean and efficient.. ive seen great systems at a good price with HID in the center all the plants grow centrally...
http://www.hydrostacker.com/about.html


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 13, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> Hey 2012!!!
> 
> First off, I like that you are really enthusiastic about learning, and any tidbit of advice that I can give you comes so free-ly. I definitely like the fact that you are thinking outside of the box, wanting to stack your harvests and what not, but I don't think that's a very viable option in the long run. We know that you could obviously run T5's right over the top of any given canopy and that the proximity of your light source relative to the top of your canopy would be ideal, but there are other factors at play which play with your verticality (is that really a word?).
> 
> ...


Sounds like a 12/12 method!


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## SOCALRP (Jul 13, 2011)

isthis2012 said:


> Good to know, thanks!
> 
> I am having second thoughts anyways, after reading of laws and such, I doubt I would ever get caught but it is a risk. And sadly (stupidly) in the eyes of the law, 100 small plants is a far more serious offense then a few large ones, even if they both yield the same amount of pot. Law enforcement around here also likes to say each plant has $1000 street value, whether its a 6" clone or a 6' pine tree. So for the near future I'm going to shift my efforts into growing large plants while I learn to grow better..not giving up on the idea though. Just for now I dont think I'll be building shelves of flowering pots. I was thinking though, you guys are probably right, 4 shelves under an average ceiling probably wouldn't cut it. I still think 3 would be viable though


once you go past 99 plants the federal mandatory minimum is 5years, that's while you'll never see a rec that allows more than 99 plants.


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## two2brains (Jul 14, 2011)

SOCALRP said:


> once you go past 99 plants the federal mandatory minimum is 5years, that's while you'll never see a rec that allows more than 99 plants.


lucky you. 100 plants or more in my state is a whopping mandatory minimum 25 years with no chance of parole.

and people have the nerve to complain about high prices


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## PetFlora (Jul 14, 2011)

FYI Aquarium Specialty finally got a shipment of Red Suns in.


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## PetFlora (Jul 14, 2011)

mellokitty said:


> @ pet flora:
> 
> shawn from quantum is a friend of ours and i was gonna bug him a little bit about how i was reading complaints about his company and before i got a chance to, he was like "let me guess, it's about putting the spectrum graph on the wp, right?"
> 
> ...


Hey thanks for the update. FYI I just checked and the graphs still aren't posted. Thanks to what Pr0f has taught me, it probably has little meaning to me now, but it would for others


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## mrcryce (Jul 14, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> In my journal i link to the truth about green light a study done by phd's.. its an interesting read!


wow. i read the article you were talking about (i hope i found the right one, i am referring to "Green light: a signal to slow down or stop") Amazing read, I never knew there was such definitive research in this area. Learning about the antagonistic relationship between red/blue light response and green light response reminds me of an idea I had a while ago when I learned about phytochrome and its role in flowering response. I was thinking instead of having a full 12 hour dark cycle, it may be possible to run a flowering period with cycles of 2 hours of "darkness" with 730nm far-red emitters, 10 hours of lights on. 730nm light is supposed to convert Pfr to Pr, which stimulates flowering, while red light (~660nm, predominant during the day) converts Pr into Pfr, which inhibits flowering. If exposing a plant to constant 730nm far-red during the "dark cycles" is enough to trigger flowering in plants, then it might be possible to get many more hours of photosynthetic activity over the 12/12 cycle. Have you ever heard about this? I was interested in trying it in one of my project boxes but I can't find 730nm leds, nor do I have the expertise to make my own array..


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## PetFlora (Jul 14, 2011)

iNFID3L said:


> i dont have room for 2x 4 HO t5.
> 
> and im only wanting to grow 2 at a time so 4 is do-able, but not 8
> 
> ...


Thinking on this, how about a 250 CMH VERTICAL you can put 3-4 plants around it and simply turn them 180 degrees at the half way point each day?


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## Hasbroh (Jul 14, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Thinking on this, how about a 250 CMH VERTICAL you can put 3-4 plants around it and simply turn them 180 degrees at the half way point each day?


I was thinking with four plants you could hang a center bulb and four in the corners and rotate plants individually or with a big lazy susan. This in a 4x4 up to a 5x5. And have at least 8 up top, probably 12 or 16. Or 1 big plant without the center bulb.


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## PetFlora (Jul 15, 2011)

A lazy Susan does not rotate the plants container (keeping only the exposed side to the light) , which is why you have to hand rotate. hth Let's not hijack this thread.


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## Hasbroh (Jul 15, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> A lazy Susan does not rotate the plants container (keeping only the exposed side to the light) , which is why you have to hand rotate. hth Let's not hijack this thread.


Understood, I meant for the single plant.


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## DaGreenThumb (Jul 15, 2011)

dam bro kicking they asses with the t5s hell uve got sum of them mad but the proof is in the pudding


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## PetFlora (Jul 18, 2011)

Came across urls to Duster and Human Grade DE for humans, pets and our gardens http://www.amazon.com/All-Stop-M345-Pistol-Duster/dp/B002SW52CE/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&m=A2EPFO332ATZGH&s=generic&qid=1311008945&sr=1-2


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 18, 2011)

I like my T-5's....

Pics from 7/17


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## Precog420 (Jul 20, 2011)

After some minor setbacks I Finaly got my T5 Quantum BadBoy Fixture and all the lights.
here are a few puctures of it set up in my closet untill my new room is finsied.


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## novice11 (Jul 20, 2011)

Sir - I am doing my 1st grow, under T5's. I have the Sun-Blaze 4' 8 bulb. 

I'm on a budget. I plan to get the recommended bulbs for my next grow. But for now...

I am using the bulbs that came with the unit. I bought 8 of the red bulbs at the same time. I am about 2 weeks from the 12/12 switch.

Question 1 - any point in leaving any of the blue bulbs in when I go to bloom? 
If so, in what position (1-8 )?

If I find some cash, what would be the order of putting in the recommended bulbs if I can only do one at a time? And in what position (1-8 )?

Thank you, Sir!


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## PetFlora (Jul 23, 2011)

*More validation t*he importance of UVB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfiI78uN3Ks&feature=youtu.be


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## PakaloloHui (Jul 23, 2011)

Snowryder autoflwer from Short Stuff Seeds. Grown in 1 gallon pots with Subcool's Super Soil and organic tea's. Light: 2' 4 bulb T-5, standard BLUE bulbs. 24 hours light from day 1 till harvest in a few more days. It will be 70 days from popping through the soil.



[video=youtube;JisnTlfAFVs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JisnTlfAFVs[/video]


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## PetFlora (Jul 23, 2011)

*sweeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet*


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## wesleyp1pes (Jul 23, 2011)

very nice i have a 4' 4bulb t5 with 2 actinic and two 10000k plus 2 hps. im goin all actinic after this one


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 23, 2011)

Updates everyone!! tonight after lights out i shall take some pics and give everyone updates... i have been MIA on business and have to work to pay the bills... EVERYONE here is doing a great job showing the plausibility of these great lights.! let the T5 revolution begin !!!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 23, 2011)

YOU CANNOT USE ALL ACTINIC.... you will not get great results.. plants NEED the red spectrum NEED!!


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## Ghudda (Jul 23, 2011)

Pr0 how viable are the T5s when hung vertically? I read this entire thread today, but don't quite remember the vertical talk. I'm a noob, but am trying to figure out some kind of vertical and aero type of grow, somebody posted over on another forum a thread titled "heath inspired test prootype (aero)" which is in the right direction for me... but I wanna know if I can efficiently do something like that with a cluster of T5's hung vertically? Or is there some advantage to using MH or HPS bulbs in that fashion?

Off the top of my head, I'm thinking that with a cluster of bulbs (lets say  hung vertically you would not really be able to get equal light in all dimensions, ie. you may only be able to grow on say, two sides. Know what I mean?


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## Precog420 (Jul 23, 2011)

I cant wait to see some new pics Pr0! I seen PetFlora say that the Red Suns are back in stock. would you still prefer that? This is my first grow but I think that some of them are looking fantastic!(pic)


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 24, 2011)

Precog420 said:


> View attachment 1703720 I cant wait to see some new pics Pr0! I seen PetFlora say that the Red Suns are back in stock. would you still prefer that? This is my first grow but I think that some of them are looking fantastic!(pic)


Red suns are only part of the equation! remember to create a complete spectrum.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 24, 2011)

Ghudda said:


> Pr0 how viable are the T5s when hung vertically? I read this entire thread today, but don't quite remember the vertical talk. I'm a noob, but am trying to figure out some kind of vertical and aero type of grow, somebody posted over on another forum a thread titled "heath inspired test prootype (aero)" which is in the right direction for me... but I wanna know if I can efficiently do something like that with a cluster of T5's hung vertically? Or is there some advantage to using MH or HPS bulbs in that fashion?
> 
> Off the top of my head, I'm thinking that with a cluster of bulbs (lets say  hung vertically you would not really be able to get equal light in all dimensions, ie. you may only be able to grow on say, two sides. Know what I mean?


T5 can be hung in any position.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 24, 2011)

UPDATES and who doesent love them?


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 24, 2011)

ladies are coming along... its been so hot i have no choice but to use AC to cool my tent...and the temps are killing me!


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## Precog420 (Jul 24, 2011)

yea i know its only part of the spectrum, I Just wondering if the Red suns were a better choice for the red bulb. I have a few 2-bay fixtures that im not using.. what 2 bulbs would you add if I allready have my 8-bay filled with 

UVL 454 w/internal reflector
Fuji Purple
UVL Super Actinic w/internal reflector
ATI T5 12000K Aquablue Special
UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
Fuji Purple

If I use my 2-bays as side lighting should I use the UVL HO super actinic 420nm?


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## Precog420 (Jul 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> ladies are coming along... its been so hot i have no choice but to use AC to cool my tent...and the temps are killing me!


 i just bought a small ac for my room as well, its rediculous!

Love the update!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 24, 2011)

Precog420 said:


> yea i know its only part of the spectrum, I Just wondering if the Red suns were a better choice for the red bulb. I have a few 2-bay fixtures that im not using.. what 2 bulbs would you add if I allready have my 8-bay filled with
> 
> UVL 454 w/internal reflector
> Fuji Purple
> ...


i would consider using the fuji purple and blue plus...IMHO more red for flowering
Think of the fuji purple as your "base" build off that..


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## Precog420 (Jul 24, 2011)

Wow..yea I was just looking at the light spectrums again (http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html ) and the *Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple* looks amazing. , I saw your edit and it would make perfect sense to use it as a "base". Im so excited to see whats in store for my plants when they start flowering under these brilliant lights!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 24, 2011)

Glad everyone sees the promise of this setup.


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## mileee (Jul 24, 2011)

the ladies seem to love it! Keep us informed


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## hyroot (Jul 24, 2011)

Wow I'm impressed. That looks awesome. I know those will swell up so much more too. I just got my badboy 8 bulb. Im anxious to get bulbs .I have to wait to get get paid to get them though. Bills come first.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 25, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Wow I'm impressed. That looks awesome. I know those will swell up so much more too. I just got my badboy 8 bulb. Im anxious to get bulbs .I have to wait to get get paid to get them though. Bills come first.


They seem to love the heat so long as they get water! these airpots i must say keep the roots nice and cool!!! just have to keep watering them!!!


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## novice11 (Jul 25, 2011)

Pr0fesseur, I want to play but remain a bit confused. I also have an 8 bulb T5. But you only list 6 bulbs. 

What are the 8 - or is it 11? - bulbs I should get and in what position 1-8 of the fixture do they go in? (They are 48" long). Which ones get swapped for bloom, where do they go?

THANKS!


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## Precog420 (Jul 25, 2011)

novice11,

My set up is as follows (in this order)

UVL 454 W/internal reflector 
Fiji Purple
UVL super actinic w/internal reflector
ATI 12k aquablue speacial (I think that the ATI blue plus is probably a more viable bulb here)
UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
Fiji pruple

these lights will give you a good spectrum to veg from, with any empty space I would use more blue (blue plus)(actinic) bulbs for veg and more red for flower(redsun), or the Fiji purple is a good mix of both blue and red, pr0fessor suggested to me to look at the Fiji purple as like a "Base" and to build from it to get what you need, depending on veg/flower and how many tubes your using. As for the order of the lights, I wouldnt put the same bulbs next to each other and if I remember correctly I think that I remember reading not to put the red bulbs on the ends. (not sure how serious this is)
this is just what ive gathered and I am by no means experienced!


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## Millsie (Jul 25, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *More validation t*he importance of UVB http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfiI78uN3Ks&feature=youtu.be


loved that vid! Got me really thinking, a simple search of UVB for marijuana brought up fantastic results... 
I'd been thinking since UVB is harmful rigging up a door trigger so when the doors shut its on and when its open its off, protecting you from the harmful rays... 
(I later found a post of someone who actually did this - so at least I know its possible..)
(Some people even said a blacklight maybe able to emit the light that the plants require ~ I couldn't do anymore research on this though)

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/36510-uvb-thc-experiment-2.html ~ Is one from our very own RUI, very short though...

http://www.greenmanspage.com/guides/thc.html ~ I must admit I haven't read this one yet, but I skimmed and it mentions quite a few studies..

Very interesting stuff! Seriously looking to get a UVB light in about a month...
Does anyone else know about UVB or is currently running it in their setups?


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 26, 2011)

Precog420 said:


> novice11,
> 
> My set up is as follows (in this order)
> 
> ...


spacing should be as such
you want the plants to get an even light pattern so try to space lights 2 bulbs away from each of the similar spectrum.
fuji
blue 
red
fuji
75.25
red
blue
fuji
this is an example!


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## novice11 (Jul 26, 2011)

Thanks. Is this a veg or bloom setup? What lights get replaced for either veg or bloom?


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## PetFlora (Jul 27, 2011)

*FYI* I just spoke with Aquarium Specialty. They have all the bulbs that PreCog420 uses

My RedSuns are being shipped for the 3rd time. Twice broken in route. good thing I wasn't waiting on them to start a grow, or flip one


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 27, 2011)

That's ups for you always breaking shit!!! I'm out countless dollars from their negligance. But good luck with your setup!
For those asking about veg bloom.. simply replace one or two actnics with a red sun...as the Fiji have red and the 75.25 12000k also have "some" red
I am still looking for a "far" red like The ATI pro color! (discontinued!) Or something with a far red spectrum...


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## PetFlora (Jul 27, 2011)

This may be a dumb Q but, if you placed a red sun (or some other red next to a blue would you get the equivalent of a purple?


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## exclusiveghost (Jul 27, 2011)

like rollitup on facebook www.facebook.com/rollituporg and follow them on twitter @rollituporg​


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## Precog420 (Jul 27, 2011)

I would be so pissed about that many broken bulbs!, FedEx delivers most of my things, I havent had anything broken yet. luckily I guess! ordering from 5+sites can get rather expensive on shipping cost so it is rather nice that aquarium specialty has a large variety of quality bulbs.


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## hyroot (Jul 27, 2011)

i hate fed ex. they are never on time. and they;re website sucks. you can't even track your package as detailed as ups. oh ups gives free insurance up to $100. so if they break your bulbs. they should cover it.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 27, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> This may be a dumb Q but, if you placed a red sun (or some other red next to a blue would you get the equivalent of a purple?


 No its a red and a blue bulb... they all have different spectrum..light doesent "mix" thats an optical illusion..


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 27, 2011)

Midnight snack anyone?


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## Paperhouse (Jul 27, 2011)

I love what I'm seeing. Hard to believe these fatties are being done under T5's.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 27, 2011)

Hard to believe i am the only one doing this ATM?


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## hyroot (Jul 28, 2011)

In the words of Cartman. " You warped my fragile little mind"

those look mouth watering. I want to get mine started so bad. I have to wait a couple weeks to get the bulbs. cool thing is my homies cousins next door neighbor owns an aquarium shop and is hooking me up with those bulbs for 15 to 20 each. I don't have to order them


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 28, 2011)

good deal! hope you have as much success as i do!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 28, 2011)

"Two photons cannot ever collide.In fact light is quantized only when interaction with matter."


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## Precog420 (Jul 28, 2011)

Damn, I love this thread! they look amazing Pr0! I will be ordering red bulbs soon. I can hardly wait.


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## Ghudda (Jul 29, 2011)

Sorry if this is mentioned in here somewhere... do we know how much lumens worth (or whatever measurement I should be talking about) is being "wasted" into the wrong spectrum? As far as HPS goes? Or MH for that matter (for Veg). I'm trying to get some kind of an idea when I look at one deep red bulb's lumens how many of them it would take to stack up to the HPS bulb's red spectra that it puts out. I'll go digging through this again and delete this if I find it 

Hope you know what I'm getting at? (Warning, I don't know the math) If people knew that 70% or some crazy amount of their current bulb setup was creating useless light, wasting power, and extra heat... causing them to keep the plants far away from the bulb to lose even more effect... out of the 50,000 lumens hitting their plant only 15000 lumens were actually helping it flower... then they'd probably consider buying 40,000 lumens worth of T5 that they could hold practically on top of the plants, hehe


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## dr.smallbudz (Jul 29, 2011)

can i use led stage light as a grow light?


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 29, 2011)

you can use whatever you want... theres no guarantee it will work... this is a T5 thread check out the LED threads


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 29, 2011)

Ghudda said:


> Sorry if this is mentioned in here somewhere... do we know how much lumens worth (or whatever measurement I should be talking about) is being "wasted" into the wrong spectrum? As far as HPS goes? Or MH for that matter (for Veg). I'm trying to get some kind of an idea when I look at one deep red bulb's lumens how many of them it would take to stack up to the HPS bulb's red spectra that it puts out. I'll go digging through this again and delete this if I find it
> 
> Hope you know what I'm getting at? (Warning, I don't know the math) If people knew that 70% or some crazy amount of their current bulb setup was creating useless light, wasting power, and extra heat... causing them to keep the plants far away from the bulb to lose even more effect... out of the 50,000 lumens hitting their plant only 15000 lumens were actually helping it flower... then they'd probably consider buying 40,000 lumens worth of T5 that they could hold practically on top of the plants, hehe


I will be nice and point you in the right direction....
These are standard and enhanced horticulture bulbs.
Along the graphs you will notice that the light "peaks". that is where the light is actually produced and the body of the peak is the "intensity" of that light.. the higher the peak the more light is produced @ that frequency as a total percentage of light output... Whew
now youll notice that the "large majority of light is produced between 540nm and 620nm most of that light is wasted because the plant is not very sensitive to that wavelength.. 
now using this reference is like filling a bathtub full of muddy water, sure you can drink it but theres a shit ton of crap in the water you have to remove... 
once you remove all the mud you may be left with very little potable water to use...
now if i use distilled water and fill the tub i can drink all of it with no waste..
read about PAR values and PUR values.. 
100W of 100% PAR = 1000W of 10% PAR and this is what im trying to achieve.. (let the flaming begin..) 
now my bulbs are approx 90% PAR on average 
now most companies use the SUN to measure PAR or PUR values against but that theory is a fart in a windstorm..
plants DONT use all the visible spectrum... but a very narrow band of 380nm to 450nm and 580 to 660nm and 750nm FAR red
any light produced out of that band is "less" effective
sure 1000W bulbs produce an abundance of light... but not in the photosynthesis action curve
View attachment 1711582View attachment 1711583


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 29, 2011)

https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13232-scientists-2-cents.html
ill repost this a few times to answer any n00b questions!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 29, 2011)

*EVERYONE WHO LIKES MY THREAD PLEASE GO TO MY GROUP!!*

If i have helped you in any way towards your success please dont be shy to ADD +REP


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## novice11 (Jul 29, 2011)

Hi Pr0fesseur - 
I don't think I should join yet because I haven't got the bulbs, still using the Quantoms. But I plan to for my next grow.

+REP is my pleasure!


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## Paperhouse (Jul 29, 2011)

Do you guys think a 4' 8 Bulb T5 Badboy with pr0fesseur's bulb setup would give similar yield to a 600W HPS in a small scale closet grow using LST/SCROG?


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 29, 2011)

No one will be willing to make those claims....not even me... 
Different tech different method different end results... this is all experimental and a WIP. Even saying is a 600W hortilux bulb = a 600W solarmax...is still a stretch..
Have you seen my results so far? Have you taken the time to read this entire thread? did you read it again? 
When you do you will realize that your question is moot. 
Learn what light IS how it affects plants, read all the material and ask yourself will it work for _*YOU!*_


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## Ghudda (Jul 30, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I will be nice and point you in the right direction....
> These are standard and enhanced horticulture bulbs.
> Along the graphs you will notice that the light "peaks". that is where the light is actually produced and the body of the peak is the "intensity" of that light.. the higher the peak the more light is produced @ that frequency as a total percentage of light output... Whew
> now youll notice that the "large majority of light is produced between 540nm and 620nm most of that light is wasted because the plant is not very sensitive to that wavelength..
> ...


Alright. Tell me if I'm completely off?

The point or question I'm trying to pose, at least I think  "Is there a way we can put some *different *numbers on the table to spell out what is equivalent?". I think if we can that'd help well... me at least! Probably many others. Lets say you're delivering 70k lumens at a plant from your 1k watt HPS, at optimal range. The spectral range of around 620nm looks to be fairly important for the plant (I assume for flowering?), only about 30% of your bulbs lumens are applying because it just doesn't deliver this range in a high concentration. So we can say "This HPS is delivering 21k lumens around the 620nm mark". When you get down to 660-700nm it's more like 10% effective, perhaps we can say "At 660-700nm the HPS delivers 7000 lumens to this range".

So now people can look at this 660-700nm range, see how important it is (looks high on the importance scale) and try to find better T5 bulbs to hit that range. If a T5 bulb can put out 5000+ lumens at this range at a cost of 55 watts lets say... seems like a great option to at least supplement the HPS with a very deep red T5 bulb? As for totally replacing an HPS bulb, if I saw something like what I'm writing below.. I'd think more people would try the experiment (I'm making these numbers up, I hope the ones above or somewhat realistic)

T5 bulb A produces 7000 lumens for 55 watts, 5000 lumens hits 660-720nm, with a peak of 5500 lumens hitting 690-700nm
T5 bulb B produces 5000 lumens for 42 watts, 4000 lumens hits 420nm-500nm, with a peak of 45000 lumens at 450nm
Your HPS bulb produces 70k lumens for 1000 watts, as far as flowering goes though, 20k lumens are hitting x range

(And if it's possible) Combination A of T5 bulbs produces 40k lumens, x of which hits the deep red range, x of which hits your orange range at a cost of x watts, time to throw out your HPS bulb and try this.

Now if T5 bulbs capable of efficiently covering the entirety of the flowering ranges exist or not, I wouldn't know  To me though, it seems like that deep red range is barely even being touched on by HPS.

EDIT: Or actually, (I've re-read your PUR and PAR statements) if you put up a setup that's say 70% PUR and another that's 80% PAR @ x lumens and x watts it puts you in a situation where you can compare that "This HPS however is is 20% PUR, delivering x effective lumens at x watts"

Sorry I'm pretty confused myself at what I wrote  LOL


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## Ghudda (Jul 30, 2011)

Speaking of... does anybody supplement or plant to supplement their HPS with some deep red bulbs? That spectrum to me, just looks like it could use more light hitting it.


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## lymebrain (Jul 30, 2011)

hi there prof great info!

I am currently using a LightWave T5 LW 44-HO .

This is in an area 43cm * 130cm. There are currently 4 * 6500K 865 54w tubes in the unit. Could you give me some advice on how to achieve your effect in such a limited space. I am mainly concerned with flowering at the moment though your thoughts on vegging would be much appreciated. Perhaps using some tubes lighting from the base of the plants up ?

many thanks any help greatly appreciated.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 30, 2011)

Ghudda said:


> Alright. Tell me if I'm completely off?
> 
> The point or question I'm trying to pose, at least I think  "Is there a way we can put some *different *numbers on the table to spell out what is equivalent?". I think if we can that'd help well... me at least! Probably many others. Lets say you're delivering 70k lumens at a plant from your 1k watt HPS, at optimal range. The spectral range of around 620nm looks to be fairly important for the plant (I assume for flowering?), only about 30% of your bulbs lumens are applying because it just doesn't deliver this range in a high concentration. So we can say "This HPS is delivering 21k lumens around the 620nm mark". When you get down to 660-700nm it's more like 10% effective, perhaps we can say "At 660-700nm the HPS delivers 7000 lumens to this range".
> 
> ...


your trying to quantify 3 different scales which CANT be done... you cant measure speed and distance @ the same time.. laws of physics demand you only measure one @ a time because both are relative to the observer...
Physics aside, your trying to measure an elephant and a rock... apples and oranges have too many similarities! first ignore lumens.. forget they even exist... imagine the PUR and PAR values as the speed of light.. a constant if you will... so if you know the speed of light why compare the anything to it? its a constant... a PAR value is more of an indicator than ANY measurement... thats why it exists in the first place! if i have a bulb thats 90%PUR and a bulb of 50% par it would take dramatically more wattage of 50% PUR to = the 90% get it? so in essence lets say im producing 432W of 90% PUR and your producing(sun = 2000) 600W of 40% par with hps.. MH has a higher par value due to a broader red spectrum... in essence it doesent matter how much light you use its diminishing returns. For every 1w u have to create in order to bring up your PUR you have to use 1/3 w to mitigate it! thats why LED do such a great job with plants they measure at about 1200 PAR which is 60% i get 90 on average because T5 produces MORE PUR light per watt... and these lights are dialed in for growing living organisms and have 20 years of research behind them! the reason you have to use 1000w hps to reach through the canopy is because only 40% of the light is usable by the plant... so your only getting 400W of usable light! if your light is MORE efficient you dont need as much of it! 
IGNORE the 3000k 6500k bullshit thats a kelvin measurement of a black body radiator and IS NOT FOR GAS LAMPS!!!!
someone put that on a gas lamp and it stuck a LONG time ago.... there is NO BLACK BODY RADIATOR IN GAS LAMPS!!! quit thinking your 6500k bulbs are actually that ... its a fallacy that really needs to stop! PLEASE read my thread again i really think your not picking up what im putting down... 
watts are not a measurement of anything but POWER REQUIRED TO RUN THE LAMP!
LUMENS The lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI derived unit of luminous flux, a measure of the total "amount" of visible light emitted by a source. Luminous flux differs from power (radiant flux) in that luminous flux measurements reflect the varying sensitivity of _*the human eye*_ to different wavelengths of light, while radiant flux measurements indicate the total power of all light emitted, independent of the eye's ability to perceive it.
A bulbs lumen rating means NOTHING to plants... for example! 
uva is not visible to the human eye so therefore the uva bulb would have 0 lumens. plants can "see" uva so does that mean uva doesent do anything for plants because we cant see it NO NOT AT ALL!
jsut because your bulb produces 55000 lumens doesent mean a fart in a windstorm it only 5% of that light is USABLE to plants!


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 30, 2011)

lymebrain said:


> hi there prof great info!
> 
> I am currently using a LightWave T5 LW 44-HO .
> 
> ...


use the setup i have outlined in this forum as far as bulb layout and selection.. dont go craxy plants dont need light @ the base of the plant but near the top!


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## lymebrain (Jul 30, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> use the setup i have outlined in this forum as far as bulb layout and selection.. dont go craxy plants dont need light @ the base of the plant but near the top!


but with only four bulbs is this possible ?


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 31, 2011)

2 fuji purple 1 red sun 1 blue plus or 454...fuji on outside blue and red in middle!


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## PetFlora (Jul 31, 2011)

My new bulbs should be here Wednesday. FYI Aquatic Specialties told me that *Red Sun* has a new name, but I forget what it is. (Reefer Madness) 

Anyway, I tried running half my Bad Boy 8 bulb as I have some fresh seeds working under my UFO 90, which vegges well in spite of being ~ 90% red (don't know what nms either B/R are but I think 2 blues and 2-3 reds are covered). Even under ~ 200 watts of Quantum Grow bulbs that room gets too damn hot, unless I want a bunch of males- _92 degrees in early morning. Imagine hours 12-6pm being hotter. _So, unless a Bad Ass in-room ac falls into my lap, I'm DOA until it gets cool enough here ( typically mid October). Plus they already hooked up a Smart Meter. I read where I can send a specific letter to get it removed which states that eavesdropping is a Federal Offense.

I have a small Mylar lined closet under air with my UFO 90. Even though it's 3 yo technology, it does a damned good job of growing 2-3 < 15" colas. So yes LEDs work, _*but,*_ T 5s offer twice the sqft coverage for one-third the price. 



It pisses me off that I am stuck on the sidelines because I was thinking about this and researching non-aquatic T5 HOs before seeing Pr0fs thread. Still I didn't know where to start other than simply adding ~ 500nm range to punch up chlorophyll production; a tidbit I learned about while staying current on LED technology. FYI: GSL charges $100 extra to get Green LEDs in his Pro Bloom version. I was thinking about getting one until I came across Pr0fs thread. But I wasn't thinking too hard, because the same coverage would cost $1500+ and I had just bought the Bad Boy. 

Hope you guys aren't gonna make *Pr0f* do all the heavy lifting. Let's see more pics. The shots of Pr0f's babies with 3-4 nodes look fantastic for that stage, though I did have some nice ones myself using just Quantums bulbs.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 31, 2011)

thanks flora... you can get a swamp cooler pretty cheap that will cool that area cheaply... speaking of heavy lifting my plant tumbled over today under her own weight!!!! so im stringing her back up be patient ill have pics tonight.. maybe...
Im leaving for a bit for business so no updates/responses till next week. please join my advanced t5 gorwers so that i may create a bulb vendor/price list for our bulbs so everyone can use it!


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## PetFlora (Jul 31, 2011)

I am east of the mississippi. Swamp coolers are SAID not to work here due to the high humidity. Now if I could try one no charge, I would give it a go.


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## MediMary (Jul 31, 2011)

swamp coolers DO NOT work in high humidity.. you are correct


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## Hasbroh (Jul 31, 2011)

If your house is air conditioned and you use a small interior swamp cooler it should work. You need to know your house's humidity first.


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## pr0fesseur (Jul 31, 2011)

again i had no idea where you were so ya i used to live in FL swamp coolers are not useful there!they require humidity to be low....


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## lymebrain (Aug 1, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 2 fuji purple 1 red sun 1 blue plus or 454...fuji on outside blue and red in middle!


UVL Red Sun don't appear to be available here? 

Any other possible suggestions ?

Perhaps 2 Fiji purple and 2 ATI Purple plus ?

Do you know anything about the new Korallen Zucht - T5 Coral Light New Generation 54w ? http://www.coralculture.co.uk/shop/product_info.php?products_id=3489

Any help greatly appreciated stop me having to go the HPS route.

many thanks prof.


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## PetFlora (Aug 1, 2011)

Bulbs are here. Man were they wrapped well this time.

I have a question about the *Aqua Sun. *The AS graph on Aquarium Specialty's site shows mostly Blue and Green (which I wanted), but the bulb light is pink. WTF? I called AS, they are investigating, but shouldn't this light be bluish?


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## lymebrain (Aug 1, 2011)

brainalive said:


> Hey All!
> 
> Noob alert! (duh). I'm a PhD student, studying biology (with a physics & mathematics background), though I'm not a botanist. The pr0f's approach really appeals to me! I'm going to try and advance things a little bit on the experimental side, once I'm satisfied that I have something to add. For now, a bit of an analytical contribution, and some more points for discussion.
> 
> ...


hi brainalive,

Seeing how you already have the info in your system is it possible for you to produce a graph for me based on 2 * KorallenZucht Fiji Purple and 2 * ATI Purple Plus. Perhaps comment on that mixes suitability for flowering.

and help my brain come more alive 
lymebrain.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 1, 2011)

.. i would stay away from any bulb not mentioned by me, or any new "color" i havent mentioned... brainslave has done quite alot of work and i thank him for it... I will be including these charts on my google doc when its finished...
UVL has a few bulbs that you can easily find..
the aquasun IS pink thats the color... it has some red but mostly orange and green besides the blue.. again i dont use the specialty bulbs i try to stick with purer color bulbs to target the spectrum im after... the aquasun has useless orange and yellow... no red to speak of...
i would use the 75.25 personally it has some far red and more red after 600nm... a little green


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## hyroot (Aug 1, 2011)

i got the bulbs sooner than i thought. and put it together. i will post pics soon.


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## lymebrain (Aug 2, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 2 fuji purple 1 red sun 1 blue plus or 454...fuji on outside blue and red in middle!


UVL Red Sun don't appear to be available here? 

Any other possible suggestions ?

Perhaps 2 Fiji purple and 2 ATI Purple plus ?

Do you know anything about the new Korallen Zucht - T5 Coral Light New Generation 54w ? http://www.coralculture.co.uk/shop/p...oducts_id=3489

Any help greatly appreciated stop me having to go the HPS route.

many thanks prof.


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## PetFlora (Aug 2, 2011)

FYI: I noticed the markings on both sets of bulbs had V-HO, so I called yesterday to make sure that I did not get VHO bulbs. They mfg response basically says the V-HO designation does not mean VHO. What rocket scientist decided that V-HO made sense is beyond me. I suggested they make this clear on their site. hth


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## MurshDawg (Aug 4, 2011)

DUDE! are you running HO or VHO. I own a sunblaze t5-48 HO and I started with only 3000k and 6500k bulbs and then I saw Aquarium bulbs and i had the same epiphany. I want to know what type of bulbs you recommend. where do you find redder t5ho bulbs?


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## PetFlora (Aug 5, 2011)

DUDE, read the dam thread


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## novice11 (Aug 5, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> DUDE, read the dam thread


I agree, but the answer is to use HO and not VHO. If you read the thread you will see that VHO are overdriven HO bulbs and are not cost-effective.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 6, 2011)

novice11 said:


> I agree, but the answer is to use HO and not VHO. If you read the thread you will see that VHO are overdriven HO bulbs and are not cost-effective.


*POOF*
VHO bulbs are indeed overdriven T5, while they are more inefficient, you would not be able to overdrive them with a standard ballast anyways. you would need an ATI fixture to do that and they are 500$+ not worth it IMHO, in addition they effectively halve the life of your bulbs... HOWEVER! you can overdrive the 400w to over 600W no problem and even use a dimmer to simulate sunrise noon and sunset as this is the method many people use for their aquariums. but just because you can overdrive doesent mean you should! overdriving actually doesent effect the gas inside but the electrodes that excite the gas, as they wear out very fast and eventually take more and more juice to keep the light aglow. thus killing your ballast in return. again a caveat ati ballasts are meant to be overdriven and from what i have read they are not cheap to replace! might as well just buy 2 fixtures for the same price!!!

and yes READ THE DAMN THREAD
i have done plenty of explaining in her to make me blue in the face. I will however respond to well thought out ideas and questions that are outside the scope of my and others explainations or if i have left out any details. 
I am still traveling and have yet to get home so please be patient! 
I commend others for their interest and expect to see an entire thread full of people growing with this method...
or maybe ill start my own? possible! i still think i deserve a sticky!
we should put it to a vote! lol
For those of you buying these setups hurry up with the damn pics already.... jk!
I have come across some new bulbs i cant say much about yet still doing research.. we shall see.! Looks VERY promising for THC/RESIN production!!!!!










Side note!!! i just got a free macbook pro.. someone was going to toss it because it wouldent post.. took it in for repair found out there was a recall on the logic board (600$ repair!!!) FREE!!! The only way i would ever own a MAC...


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## novice11 (Aug 7, 2011)

You're living right, Pr0fesseur...

These new bulbs would take the place of the Red ones? C'mon, drop a hint!!!


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 10, 2011)

Anyone who says these bulbs wont produce buds needs to take a close look here * Weeks people!

Plant physiology people ... 
510 nm - 610 nm=WEAK light absorption by chlorophyll, no morphogenetic effect....
but 610-720 that's where we want the light for flowering....

A number of secondary metabolites such as flavonoids, tannins and lignins=(Polyphenols!!!!!) are increased at elevated levels of UV-B radiation which screen UV-B and protect the cellular components against the UV-B damage.
Now it shows that Green light indeed does help with lower canopy and crowded situations..


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## Grimbsy (Aug 10, 2011)

Amazing work pr0f, I applaud your efforts in finding a viable alternative to HPS, and making it as efficient as possible.  I've been thinking about getting into this and making it as space and energy efficient as possible, I'm thinking about a setup similar to isthis2012. 

I'm going to have a 4 tier shelf, 32" apart, shelves are going to be 24"^2, going to be using pots 6" tall 7" diameter, and the lights should be about 2", leaving me with 24". I'm going to be growing an autoflower with a max height of 24", with 3 rows of 3 on each shelf. I've been looking into getting 1 or 2 sunblaze 24" 24w T5 strip lights per shelf as I'm trying to keep the total power consumption under 200w, I'm well aware I'm not going to yield very much, but this is more of an experiment, even if I get 5g dry per plant I'll be happy. The shelves are going to be fully enclosed and covered in mylar, and I'm going to have relectors on the t5s bent to get more light to the outer rows to maximize efficiency. 

Now for the question, I read the optimal color temp for autoflowers is 6500k, but I was wondering if you could recommend something better. I'd go with everything you've already suggested, but I'm trying to keep it down to 2 24" t5's max per shelf.

Oh yeah, and where is a cheap place to get 24" t5 fixtures? The cheapest on ebay is 30$ shipped, for that price I might as well buy the sunblazes, pay 6$ less and get a free bulb. 

Thanks in advance.


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## PetFlora (Aug 10, 2011)

*Now for the question, I read the optimal color temp for autoflowers is 6500k, but I was wondering if you could recommend something better. **How would anyone know 6500 is best unless they experimented with aquarium lights? I recently grew a sweet little AF using mostly a UFO 90 LED*. *It did get some T5 lighting during mid growth - early flower*
*pots 6" tall 7" diameter, Even short AFs need more soil than this* *to reach their full potential*

hth


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## Grimbsy (Aug 10, 2011)

About the lights, https://www.rollitup.org/grow-room-design-setup/183511-auto-flower-strain-lighting.html, https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-growing/441426-autoflower-grow-using-cfl.html, https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/428530-2700k-6500k-cfls-autoflowers-2.html, some people are saying use 2700k+6500k, 1 person says 6500k straight through, 1 person says 2700k straight through, people on other sites are also suggesting 6500k straight through, I gathered that the general consensus was that 6500k is the best to have if only using one. That combined with the fact I found a fixture + 6500k bulb for 24$ made it the best choice. I guess "optimal" was a bad way of wording it.

Out of the strains I've been looking at they recommend 5-7 litres for the really short ones that grow 12-16", I know it's on the smaller side, but I've read in quite a few threads that 1 gal pots are ok for them.


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## PetFlora (Aug 10, 2011)

This was 4 AFs from my first attempt using Quantums bulbs. Not too shabby, but I am mos def on board to experiment with aquarium bulbs. Popping some bag seeds right now. 

Note they were all from the same strain, but the little fatty in the middle was clearly a cut above. Alas, all 4 became males due to an unexpected 95^+ heat wave. right as I flipped to 12/12 (this strain refused to flower under 18/6).

Note the venting stack. It took me 5 days to figure this simple solution out to reduce the temps inside my pod. Reflectex didn't touch it, but this vent knocked temps down to low 80s from mid 90s.


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## PetFlora (Aug 10, 2011)

Again, have these people done side-by-side grows to see the differences? Roots need room to grow properly. When crammed into containers that are too small, they compete against each other for what little nutrients you are able to deliver before your container is soaking. hth


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## Grimbsy (Aug 10, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Again, have these people done side-by-side grows to see the differences? Roots need room to grow properly. When crammed into containers that are too small, they compete against each other for what little nutrients you are able to deliver before your container is soaking. hth


I could use the 2gal smartpots instead, they're only 8" diameter and 7" tall, would be kinda tight but I'd still be able to fit 9 per shelf.

I figure I should use a UVL red sun, and a UVL super actinic per shelf, it should do better than a 2700k/6500k combo.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 10, 2011)

air pots do a great job of air pruning... i have to say i have 2 gal pots and youve seen what grows in them...  
my pots were 4$ each......for the two gal and 2$ for the seedling starters! never had a problem.... just use lots of water!


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## ChronicClouds (Aug 10, 2011)

Awesome Work! I found a 36"in bulb that will replace your 660nm, but the largest bulb is 36" http://www.hellolights.com/39w-procolor-t5hofluorescent-ati.aspx. I also had one question, will the bulbs you have discussed work for my 48" 6 t5 sun leaves/blazing sun fixture?? UVL Red sun 630nm; UVL 454nm; UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm; KorallenZucht Fuji Purple 630 & 440nm


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 11, 2011)

ChronicClouds said:


> Awesome Work! I found a 36"in bulb that will replace your 660nm, but the largest bulb is 36" http://www.hellolights.com/39w-procolor-t5hofluorescent-ati.aspx. I also had one question, will the bulbs you have discussed work for my 48" 6 t5 sun leaves/blazing sun fixture?? UVL Red sun 630nm; UVL 454nm; UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm; KorallenZucht Fuji Purple 630 & 440nm


the pro colors are nice but they are discontinued i USED to use those.... i replaced them with the red suns becasue i could readily find them! look at my signature!


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## ChronicClouds (Aug 11, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> the pro colors are nice but they are discontinued i USED to use those.... i replaced them with the red suns becasue i could readily find them! look at my signature!


 Well check the link http://www.aquariumguys.com/aquaticlife-10000k-700nm-t5ho-39w-36in.html . Its 700+nm but only comes in 36" or 24". They only stopped making 660nm 48".

or 

http://www.hellolights.com/39w-procolor-t5hofluorescent-ati.aspx 650nm-720nm

I run HPS for flower but am very interested in running your lights for veg. I have a friend who is a pro grower for a club. He says that the red spectrum in veg helps keep your plant from stretching, keeping internodes tight. IDK if this is correct. I had thought the blue light in veg keeps the plant from stretching and vice versa for flower. What do you think pr0f?


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## THISguyy (Aug 11, 2011)

very nice, been thinking about investing in the same light


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 11, 2011)

Grimbsy said:


> Amazing work pr0f, I applaud your efforts in finding a viable alternative to HPS, and making it as efficient as possible.  I've been thinking about getting into this and making it as space and energy efficient as possible, I'm thinking about a setup similar to isthis2012.
> 
> I'm going to have a 4 tier shelf, 32" apart, shelves are going to be 24"^2, going to be using pots 6" tall 7" diameter, and the lights should be about 2", leaving me with 24". I'm going to be growing an autoflower with a max height of 24", with 3 rows of 3 on each shelf. I've been looking into getting 1 or 2 sunblaze 24" 24w T5 strip lights per shelf as I'm trying to keep the total power consumption under 200w, I'm well aware I'm not going to yield very much, but this is more of an experiment, even if I get 5g dry per plant I'll be happy. The shelves are going to be fully enclosed and covered in mylar, and I'm going to have relectors on the t5s bent to get more light to the outer rows to maximize efficiency.
> 
> ...


 Fuji purple and blue+ or 75.25 two bulb is perfect


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## hyroot (Aug 11, 2011)

prof. with those air pots, since they air trim the roots do they never get root bound? 2 gal seems awfully small for what you pulled.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 13, 2011)

No root bound plants the roots never actually start choking themselves... you can grow real TREES in these pots





[video=youtube;nceTm3r1mZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nceTm3r1mZc[/video]


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 13, 2011)

ChronicClouds said:


> Well check the link http://www.aquariumguys.com/aquaticlife-10000k-700nm-t5ho-39w-36in.html . Its 700+nm but only comes in 36" or 24". They only stopped making 660nm 48".
> 
> or
> 
> ...


Blue light keeps plants nice and short from the research papers ive read... red lights are used to start the life cycle process from veg to bloom... they "trigger" flowering.
see my last posts about wavelength lifecycle a few posts back


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## RawBudzski (Aug 13, 2011)

Thoes/Some trees were planted in the ground in thoes pots then uprooted in the pots for transportation.. their doing it about 5 miles from my house.. but the TREES are in the GROUND their entire life until moved.


pr0fesseur said:


> No root bound plants the roots never actually start choking themselves... you can grow real TREES in these pots


@ least out here they are.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 13, 2011)

RawBudzski said:


> Thoes/Some trees were planted in the ground in thoes pots then uprooted in the pots for transportation.. their doing it about 5 miles from my house.. but the TREES are in the GROUND their entire life until moved.
> 
> 
> @ least out here they are.



well i must beg to differ in FL the trees live their entire lives in air pots!! and as seen here all these TREES live their lives in air pots...


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 13, 2011)

Originally Posted by Noromaru 
Would it help if I put red plastic over the lights?????

WHAT???? look @ that question...
read it 6 or seven times...
then use google
then yahoo then lycos then bing
then dont ask stupid questions


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## MurshDawg (Aug 14, 2011)

If V-HO bulbs are just over driven HO bulbs then why do they sell different ballasts for V-HO? As far as the efficacy of V-HO the verdict is still out on that being that they are relatively new. Oh and Mr.PetFlora the knowledge you possess on this topic is only over shadowed by your prickish nature in handling questions from people. Not everyone can be as cool as you. I hope you remember that the next time you feel like being an ass.


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## PetFlora (Aug 14, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> *Maybe not, but most people can and do read. Your questions were previously answered in this very thread. *


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## MurshDawg (Aug 14, 2011)

and most people haven't spent the past two years building up a "rep" just to act like a douche to someone new to the site. Way to help the cause bro. Next time I need to post I guess I should wade through 36 pages of forum posts just to make sure I don't sound dumb and get verbally assailed by PetFlora.


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## novice11 (Aug 14, 2011)

You guys need to mellow out and take it in a bit. Smoke a J or something...


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## MurshDawg (Aug 14, 2011)

good idea, novice11!


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## hyroot (Aug 14, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> well i must beg to differ in FL the trees live their entire lives in air pots!! and as seen here all these TREES live their lives in air pots...


Thats cool
So then, Can you grow larger plants in smaller pots opposed to the 1 foot per gal rule? Would I be able to do 3 foot in a 2 gal with the air pots and without the plant getting spindly too?


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## RawBudzski (Aug 14, 2011)

I have 3-4 footers right now in 2gal bags. ^^ their kinda tall but fine. No root issues.


hyroot said:


> Thats cool
> So then, Can you grow larger plants in smaller pots oppose to the 1 foot per gal rule.. Would I be able to do 3 foot in a 2 gal with those pots and without the plant getting spindly too?


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## hyroot (Aug 14, 2011)

is that in grow bags? I started using 3 gal bags on my most recent grow and they seem to hold way more soil than the 3 gal plastic pots I normally use.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 14, 2011)

novice11 said:


> You guys need to mellow out and take it in a bit. Smoke a J or something...


AGREED!
BTW I read through 36 pages and im sure almost everyone here does as well... People go through life just asking questions, but those who learn, educate themselves on the topic to know *Which* questions to ask!


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 14, 2011)

RawBudzski 
Thanks for checking my forum I hope we can share our knowledge and experience for others to learn.

For all you others Lets see those pics!!! i want to see what i have inspired you to either try or buy and tell me what you think!


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## MurshDawg (Aug 14, 2011)

Well gee, pr0fessur must have found a way to time travel as well as grow the best buds with aquarium fluros. I still haven't figured out where to fit in 37 pages of convoluted stoned rantings from someone with an ego and no patience for questions. You got me there, pr0fessur. Maybe, you should check your pretentious attitude or take novice's advice and smoke one. Just remember not everyone can be as cool as you. Perhaps your humility should reflect that fact.
[video]http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103374/mr-derp[/video]


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 15, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Well gee, pr0fessur must have found a way to time travel as well as grow the best buds with aquarium fluros. I still haven't figured out where to fit in 37 pages of convoluted stoned rantings from someone with an ego and no patience for questions. You got me there, pr0fessur. Maybe, you should check your pretentious attitude or take novice's advice and smoke one. Just remember not everyone can be as cool as you. Perhaps your humility should reflect that fact.
> [video]http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/103374/mr-derp[/video]


 even if you didnt read the entire forum which is necessary to even understand the concept of what im trying to do, you could have @ the very least looked up ONE bulb listed *in my signature..*. even if you only read the first thread on his topic it clearly states which bulbs i am using. Even if you didnt read one post you could have used google rather than asking what bulbs im using and if they're ho vs vho....
Its a wonder why your the only one curious about whether the lights are vho or not seeing as im sure you would research a topic before asking any questions... you dont blurt out a physics question without knowing what your asking do you? 
Lastly if you DIDNT read any of the posts then how would you be able to come to the conclusion that i have stoned ramblings??? also out of 368 posts i dont believe i have made any "ramblings" other than offer advise to No0b5 such as yourself and others, without name calling and acting like im mr high and mighty with my 18 posts.  
Go back to the beginners forums or learn to uses google before you accuse people of hostility for having to listen to ramblings of narrow minded individuals such as yourself only looking for people to do all the work for them, instead of "learning" something... 
_*have a super day*_


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## PetFlora (Aug 15, 2011)

Hey pr0f. I didn't want to say too much to this person as it is your thread. And as such you can ask the Mods to delete his immature, stoned ramblings


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 15, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Hey pr0f. I didn't want to say too much to this person as it is your thread. And as such you can ask the Mods to delete his immature, stoned ramblings


No i dont need to hide his comments im going to let them be apparent so others can judge my actions for themselves.. if im being a douche someone will call me on it!
if not than hes just an immature spoiled child who wants nothing more than to be handed everything cause he asked for it... last time i checked it ..... didnt work that way... maybe in Cali... but def not here... 
not everyone deserves a trophy...


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## MurshDawg (Aug 15, 2011)

08-04-2011 03:48 PM
Thread: LED Without LEDs -My First T5 Grow
by MurshDawg Replies
{DUDE! are you running HO or VHO. I own a sunblaze t5-48 HO and I started with only 3000k and 6500k bulbs and then I saw Aquarium bulbs and i had the same epiphany. I want to know what type of bulbs you recommend. where do you find redder t5ho bulbs?} 

My first question was a valid question; especially when 3 out of the 5 bulbs you list are sold only as V-HO only. As a noob, I know that you shouldn't run HO bulbs on a V-HO ballast because the bulb life will be shortened. I did not know that you can run V-HO bulbs on an HO ballast. Which is apparently what you are doing. Here I thought someone with your apparent knowledge would exercise a little humility in dealing with us "special" people. If you do not like answering the questions maybe you shouldn't start a forum. Just a thought from the local re-re.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 16, 2011)

Still with the questions.. 
the bulbs are the SAME v-ho or not...
second vho bulbs are designed to be overdriven...(better electrodes) thats all.. overdriving bulbs causes the electrodes inside to deteoriate even faster thus dimming over time... im sure i stated this previously.... theoretically you can overdrive ANY t5.. 
the ballasts are designed to provide a higher wattage than spec usually 50% more on average.
almost ALL of the bulbs i buy can be overdriven.... i choose not to.. HOWEVER the quantum ballasts do slightly overdrive the bulbs as ive ripped open and did some research on the ballasts they use...
Second this isnt the place to be asking about VHO HO etc...


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 16, 2011)

now for actual news... i will be chopping my smaller plant tonight.. shes ready.. my bigger girl im going to let go till the end of the week and start chopping her too... 
I am ready to go full scale and these ladies are in my way!
most of my crop will go to those in actual need.. as ive said before these plants are not for profit...
Now I have a few super lemon haze feminized id like to grow but given the length of time they take to grow im probably going to do a run of OG or maybe NLx5 afghanni or WW 
im going old school so im looking for something short and fast... 
Im probably going to do a 12/12 see what i can get.. soil only with organics... same as before..
i only get FEM seeds i have no room for a mother ATM... and i have no way to get clones so seeds are my only option.
im going full 10 seeds this time no tent.. that piece of garbage went out last night!
new tent time! 
Im moving to a larger place so ill get more room to build out. 
Till i move next month ill be "curing" when everything is done and cured ill get weight... but i dont want you guys to use the weight to measure efficacy... thats not what this forum was about... 
no when i have a strain and everything dialed in we can talk weight! if i use an old school strain that ive used before like WW i KNOW i can get @ least 2oz a plant and still keep them short..and get some bubble hash too!


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## PetFlora (Aug 16, 2011)

*Pr0f:* I am using 2 Aqua Suns: My one 3 week old plant is light green. 

Under the OEM Quantums, the 4 young'uns were all darker green (normal looking). 

Nutes are the same. Any ideas?


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 16, 2011)

I did warn you about the mixed bulbs... thats why i use the actinics... see your aqua suns have only *1/3 blue* 1/3 green and 1/3 yellow/orange......
the aqua suns are designed to "look" better to the eye so your filsh will pop! not to grow coral/plants 





thats 2/3 of light young plants dont really use very well.... you need more actinic light.. if you throw an actinic bulb in that mix shell darken right up..


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## PetFlora (Aug 17, 2011)

Thanks. Can't afford more bulbs, but I can replace with the Quantums


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 17, 2011)

Everyone loves updates.. this is my small plant sharks breath... im thinking maybe an "O"


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## hyroot (Aug 18, 2011)

looks good. great job


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## PetFlora (Aug 18, 2011)

I'm betting his next harvest will put this to shame.


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## hyroot (Aug 18, 2011)

for sure. everyone is like that regardless of light. because you learn more about the strain you have and more technique etc... Every time I have a new batch the quality is always better than the one before. Yield on the other hand goes up and down.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks everyone, and remember i didnt coddle this plant @ all. in fact I was downright an absent parent on this one.
she got bare minimum nutes and watered when I could. Im sure if i dialed it in i could get imressive results... 
These were freebie strains. I know nothing of them or how they grow.. not too shabby  
The bigger lady i think im gonna chop this weekend...


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## MurshDawg (Aug 18, 2011)

Thanks for answering my question, Pr0fesseur


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## lymebrain (Aug 19, 2011)

hi prof you said you were going to trial some new lights ? Will you share what these are. Where I live I can't get some of the lights you recommend so some new lights may help. I am very close to needing to flower some plants and will need to go hps if I can't get some better T5's.

What tent are you getting ? I was thinking of getting a Secret Jardin MII DR150 any thoughts ? What did you throw out and why ? What would you go with in such a tent ?

many thanks, ignore the haters


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 19, 2011)

Well since some of these lights are made in europe the Fiji purps can be had anywhere .. i would try to get those... im looking into T5 Led tubes.. still trying to source them... so hang tight.
I cant imagine not being able to get these lights.. there @ any Aquarium store.. if not they will order them for you!
as long as you get actinics and some of the bulbs i mention your going in the right direction... EBAY!! spend the cash and import them if you have to.. buy 6 or 8 @ a time...


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 19, 2011)

http://www.amazon.com/Wave-Point-Coral-Wave-54-Watt-Output/dp/B002OJFSUC
These look promising... they have a VERY far red spike... may be too much>?


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## hyroot (Aug 19, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Well since some of these lights are made in europe the Fiji purps can be had anywhere .. i would try to get those... im looking into T5 Led tubes.. still trying to source them... so hang tight.
> I cant imagine not being able to get these lights.. there @ any Aquarium store.. if not they will order them for you!
> as long as you get actinics and some of the bulbs i mention your going in the right direction... EBAY!! spend the cash and import them if you have to.. buy 6 or 8 @ a time...




they have the agro led tubes T8 in the sunlight supply catalog for $79.95 per bulb .red (288 led's), white/blue(144 white/ 144 blue led's) bulbs are 22 watt

a little expensive hmmm!


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 19, 2011)

Well seeing as im trying to get some 660nm red t5 led tubes.. i dont know why anyone hasnt thought of them yet!


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## hyroot (Aug 20, 2011)

they also have fixtures that run t5 fluoro and t8 led on same fixture for $229.95 for 4ft 8 bulb the led t8 8 bulb fixture is $189


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## lymebrain (Aug 20, 2011)

It's the UVLs I'm having trouble getting.

A mixture of KZ FIJI PURPLE and ATI PURPLE PLUS would seem to be one possible solution ?

Any thoughts on tents?


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 20, 2011)

hyroot said:


> they also have fixtures that run t5 fluoro and t8 led on same fixture for $229.95 for 4ft 8 bulb the led t8 8 bulb fixture is $189


t5 produces double the light t8 does not worth it...


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## novice11 (Aug 20, 2011)

Hello pr0fesseur - 

I just bit the bullet and bought 3 Fuji's and 1 Red Sun for my 8 bulb SunBlaze. I held back on the rest as I am in bloom and don't need the Blue bulbs now. I held back on the other 3 Red Suns due to your previous teaser note about new bulbs and more resin. So I'm halfway there. They should be here and installed on Monday 8/22. (The other red 2700K bulbs are Spectrums, the same brand as the Blue bulbs that came with the SunBlaze).


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## novice11 (Aug 20, 2011)

lymebrain said:


> It's the UVLs I'm having trouble getting.
> 
> A mixture of KZ FIJI PURPLE and ATI PURPLE PLUS would seem to be one possible solution ?
> 
> Any thoughts on tents?


I believe the UVL brand is now UV. Can anyone confirm this?


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## hyroot (Aug 20, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> t5 produces double the light t8 does not worth it...



I know, I was just throwing that out there. i did some google searches and all I could find for t5 red led was knock offs from china and india. all they would give is the lux.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 20, 2011)

http://www.uvlco.com/ theyve always been uv lighting company


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## novice11 (Aug 20, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> http://www.uvlco.com/ theyve always been uv lighting company


Okay, but you said you use...."My Bulbs. UVL Red sun 630nm; UVL 454nm; UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm; ATI Pro Color 660nm; KorallenZucht Fuji Purple 630 & 440nm", but they are UV brand on the aquarium specialty website, I found that a bit confusing as I was looking for UVL. I was a bit concerned that I was getting the wrong ones.

Will the 3 Fuji bulbs have an effect on their own?


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 20, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Okay, but you said you use...."My Bulbs. UVL Red sun 630nm; UVL 454nm; UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm; ATI Pro Color 660nm; KorallenZucht Fuji Purple 630 & 440nm", but they are UV brand on the aquarium specialty website, I found that a bit confusing as I was looking for UVL. I was a bit concerned that I was getting the wrong ones.
> 
> Will the 3 Fuji bulbs have an effect on their own?


Ya the uv Lighting comapny bulbs are listed as UVL because UV will get you blacklights!
The y should be good as a base... but like i said before @ least get one blue plus/super blue in the mix... actinics are optimal for growth!


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## ghantron (Aug 20, 2011)

as far as density of buds how do the red t5s size up to hps watt for watt?


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 20, 2011)

There is no experimentation to make any assumption on that topic. Unfortunately no one but me is using this method full time... I have no interest in comparisons and discourage them in my thread.. Comparisons will start flaming.. and discourage actual functional conversation. 
If you feel like doing a comparison i will help you with all i can offer... 
My part is to do a proof of concept if you will.. I have invested a ton of time just trying to proove my method is viable and such an experiment to test HPS vs T5 would take 3 grows and @ least 3 strains to be a fair comparison. a baseline test cfl or t5, a test of my t5 and a hps test. 
any other method would be meaningless as you cant proove your hypothesis on 1 side by side grow.... anyone who does is just blowing smoke... LOL~!
i dont have the funds for that....


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## hyroot (Aug 20, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> There is no experimentation to make any assumption on that topic. Unfortunately no one but me is using this method full time... I have no interest in comparisons and discourage them in my thread.. Comparisons will start flaming.. and discourage actual functional conversation.
> If you feel like doing a comparison i will help you with all i can offer...
> My part is to do a proof of concept if you will.. I have invested a ton of time just trying to proove my method is viable and such an experiment to test HPS vs T5 would take 3 grows and @ least 3 strains to be a fair comparison. a baseline test cfl or t5, a test of my t5 and a hps test.
> any other method would be meaningless as you cant proove your hypothesis on 1 side by side grow.... anyone who does is just blowing smoke... LOL~!
> i dont have the funds for that....


 

how did yours come out? are they dry and cured yet.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 20, 2011)

just clipped! and hanging since yesterday..


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## salvador60 (Aug 21, 2011)

it's refreshing to find some people that see the science smacking them in the face too. I spent ten years selling the aquarium lightings and have been wondering why no one is talking about using these bulbs. most people tell me i'm crazy and aquarium bulbs won't work because I'm asking them questions they don't know the answers to. i always used 10K/420 actinic 50/50 PC bulbs for my veg and had good results in the past. I want to add some actinic into the mix for next veg cycle and start playing with different bulbs. Aquaticlife has a line of bulbs I've used in the past for reef and aquatic plants. I am by no means a rep. Just a satisfied customer. They make a 10K, 420/460 nm, 460/420 nm, 6000k and a roseate 650 nm bulb. If your having trouble finding red, their 650nm is worth looking at. 
the link is for the actinic bulbs
http://www.aquaticlife.com/products2/337#1


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## novice11 (Aug 21, 2011)

Yes, I am forced to do this piecemeal due to the usual $$ issues, LOL.

So I have the 3 Fuji and the 1 Red Sun. Even though I am in bloom, you are saying I should go with the Blue Super Actinic and/or the 454 next? Then the 75.25, or is that just for Veg? Then finish with the rest of the Red Sun? THANKS (as always).


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 21, 2011)

salvador60 said:


> it's refreshing to find some people that see the science smacking them in the face too. I spent ten years selling the aquarium lightings and have been wondering why no one is talking about using these bulbs. most people tell me i'm crazy and aquarium bulbs won't work because I'm asking them questions they don't know the answers to. i always used 10K/420 actinic 50/50 PC bulbs for my veg and had good results in the past. I want to add some actinic into the mix for next veg cycle and start playing with different bulbs. Aquaticlife has a line of bulbs I've used in the past for reef and aquatic plants. I am by no means a rep. Just a satisfied customer. They make a 10K, 420/460 nm, 460/420 nm, 6000k and a roseate 650 nm bulb. If your having trouble finding red, their 650nm is worth looking at.
> the link is for the actinic bulbs
> http://www.aquaticlife.com/products2/337#1
> View attachment 1745473
> ...


Ive seen those ... but i feel that 25% of the light on average comes from 550 nm and that is useless for plant growth... they make "fish" "look" good though! makes the color "pop" to the eye... 
I try to stay away from mixed bulbs and use single nm range bulbs to get the highest PAR for my $$$


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 21, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Yes, I am forced to do this piecemeal due to the usual $$ issues, LOL.
> 
> So I have the 3 Fuji and the 1 Red Sun. Even though I am in bloom, you are saying I should go with the Blue Super Actinic and/or the 454 next? Then the 75.25, or is that just for Veg? Then finish with the rest of the Red Sun? THANKS (as always).


 ges the super blue or blue plus.. you need lots of 410-460nm light!that the best light to stimulate growth and resin production... red lights tell the plant to shift lifecycle... but lots of blue is needed still for increased photosynthesis and respiration as plants respirate better under blue light...less cellular damage...


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## novice11 (Aug 22, 2011)

Okay. Super blue = UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm, blue plus = UVL 454nm ? 

If correct, then the only bulb that would get swapped out altogether when going from veg to bloom would be the 75.25?

Once I have this down correctly, I would like to put together a matrix of what bulbs to use and when for both a 8 bulb and 6 bulb array. I will run this by you of course. I think it would make it easier for the newly converted - like me - to see what to do and when in one convenient spot. Instead of peppering you with the same or similar requests, there would be no need to ask these questions, and I will be happy to do that.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 22, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Okay. Super blue = UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm, blue plus = UVL 454nm ?
> 
> If correct, then the only bulb that would get swapped out altogether when going from veg to bloom would be the 75.25?
> 
> Once I have this down correctly, I would like to put together a matrix of what bulbs to use and when for both a 8 bulb and 6 bulb array. I will run this by you of course. I think it would make it easier for the newly converted - like me - to see what to do and when in one convenient spot. Instead of peppering you with the same or similar requests, there would be no need to ask these questions, and I will be happy to do that.


Ive laid out the setup before multiple times, it really is in the thread if you read it... i only change out the red sun and 75.25... thats it... always use the actinics.. change out the non actinics for the red suns... and you dont really need but 2 in an 8 fixture
Always here to help ...
I do really deserve a stickey for this Thread!


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## MurshDawg (Aug 22, 2011)

Hey there Pr0fesseur, Have you tried any lights by a company called Wave Point? I really like the Super Violet and The Super Daylight (12,000k). I would like your opinion before I send out for a $100 order for bulbs. Thanks again for your work.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 22, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Hey there Pr0fesseur, Have you tried any lights by a company called Wave Point? I really like the Super Violet and The Super Daylight (12,000k). I would like your opinion before I send out for a $100 order for bulbs. Thanks again for your work.


I commented on their bulbs a few posts ago....i would only buy their actinics and nothing else... too many companies with too many combinations stick to single wavelength bulbs
Coral wave
reef wave 
super blue
stay away from the others... UVL is the only company that have internal reflectors i would stick with those! more light for your $


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## MurshDawg (Aug 22, 2011)

my apologies but just to be sure if I ran V-HO bulbs on an HO ballast can I expect to get the 5000 lumens produced by HO bulbs?


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## MurshDawg (Aug 22, 2011)

I really like UVL as a bulb company they have a nice selection and their sales material are very informative.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 23, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> my apologies but just to be sure if I ran V-HO bulbs on an HO ballast can I expect to get the 5000 lumens produced by HO bulbs?


No worries its not about lumens..... but PAR... if you have close to 100% par your fine! my bulb combo is ~96%Par you could have 100000 lumens @ %10PAR and my light would kill yours


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## salvador60 (Aug 23, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> my apologies but just to be sure if I ran V-HO bulbs on an HO ballast can I expect to get the 5000 lumens produced by HO bulbs?


i sold aquarium lights for a long time, and i had a customer who was big into freshwater plants that swore by using the t-12 VHO's in the reg t-12 fixtures because they would hold spectrum longer.


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## novice11 (Aug 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Ive laid out the setup before multiple times, it really is in the thread if you read it... i only change out the red sun and 75.25... thats it... always use the actinics.. change out the non actinics for the red suns... and *you dont really need but 2 in an 8 fixture*
> Always here to help ...
> I do really deserve a stickey for this Thread!


Yes you do!!!

A point of confusion in the above reply. You said (in a previous post) for an 8 bulb array to use FUJI / BLUE / RED / FUJI / 75.25 / RED / BLUE / FUJI for VEG phase. For BLOOM phase, swap out the 75.25 for RED. If I do that, I will have 3 RED bulbs, but in the above reply, you say only 2 RED bulbs are necessary, thus my confusion. 

Do I really swap out the 75.25 for a RED for a total of 3 RED? If not, then what? Another BLUE doesn't seem right. Another FUJI? 

I just want my girls to have the light they need!

Thanks as always, pr0fesseur!


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## novice11 (Aug 23, 2011)

A note to all - according to Aquarium Specialty, the RED SUN is now referred to by UVL as RED LIFE.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 23, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Yes you do!!!
> 
> A point of confusion in the above reply. You said (in a previous post) for an 8 bulb array to use FUJI / BLUE / RED / FUJI / 75.25 / RED / BLUE / FUJI for VEG phase. For BLOOM phase, swap out the 75.25 for RED. If I do that, I will have 3 RED bulbs, but in the above reply, you say only 2 RED bulbs are necessary, thus my confusion.
> 
> ...


thats what I personally do... however you have to remember that the fujis are 50% red too.... 3 reds in a fixture "for me" shift the balance of light from more blue to more red... again you dont NEED 3 thats just because i have a PRO COLOR which is DEEP red...i like to swap that in when blooming... pro colors are no longer avail in 48" so i am looking for a replacement in the LED arena @ 660nm+


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 23, 2011)

salvador60 said:


> i sold aquarium lights for a long time, and i had a customer who was big into freshwater plants that swore by using the t-12 VHO's in the reg t-12 fixtures because they would hold spectrum longer.


t12 are just not as efficient as t5. bottom line. better PAR with t5. better color, better phosphors, =WIN.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 23, 2011)

BTW sharks breath official weigh in 31.22 grams dry... not to shabby...


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## novice11 (Aug 23, 2011)

Thanks for clearing that up pr0fesseur. I just ordered the rest of the bulbs I need to complete the array. What I like about this is that even though you have to buy some pricey bulbs, you only need 9 for both veg and bloom.

I guess I can join the group you started now.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 24, 2011)

Your welcome... Yup 9 bulbs instead of 16... your saving money already!


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## PetFlora (Aug 24, 2011)

9 bulbs? My Quantum runs on even numbers. If one bulb goes out the adjacent bulb does not light. I have to use even numbers.

FYI I checked Quantum's site about a week ago, still no spectral photos 

hth


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## salvador60 (Aug 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> t12 are just not as efficient as t5. bottom line. better PAR with t5. better color, better phosphors, =WIN.


what i was getting at really is that in my experience with the t-12 lights at least, is that if you fire a VHO bulb at a lower wattage it will last longer than it's lower wattage counterpart. I have not tried or looked into under driving the t-5 VHO's though.


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## novice11 (Aug 24, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> 9 bulbs? My Quantum runs on even numbers. If one bulb goes out the adjacent bulb does not light. I have to use even numbers.
> 
> FYI I checked Quantum's site about a week ago, still no spectral photos
> 
> hth


I think you may have misunderstood. I was saying using the pr0fesseur's system, I have an 8 bulb array. When switching from VEG to BLOOM the pr0fesseur says to only swap out the 75.25 bulb for another RED SUN. So in addition to the 8 bulbs used for VEG (FUJI/BLU/RED/FUJI/75.25/BLU/RED/FUJI) , only swapping out the 75.25 for a RED SUN for BLOOM means you only need the additional RED SUN. 8 + 1 = 9 total bulbs needed, with 8 used at any given time.


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 24, 2011)

salvador60 said:


> what i was getting at really is that in my experience with the t-12 lights at least, is that if you fire a VHO bulb at a lower wattage it will last longer than it's lower wattage counterpart. I have not tried or looked into under driving the t-5 VHO's though.


Aquarium bulbs are typically V-HO meaning typically you dont overdrive them unless you have a very deep tank...36"+ basically in theory anyways you can overdrive any T5 but the aquarium bulbs are designed to be overdriven not underdriven.... physically speaking there is no real difference in VHO/HO bulbs except the ballasts and the ignitor!! most bulbs that require ballasts can be overdriven to some degree... just as most cpu's can be overclocked... sure youll shorten its lifespan or void the warranty ... but in the long run will you notice an extra 100W or so in growth probably not... 
VHO bulbs deinately are better quality both in CRI and phosphors used! 
Having 1 light fixture you can use for both veg AND bloom makes more sense to me.! especially since you only have to change out one or two tubes @ a time...


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## PetFlora (Aug 26, 2011)

Interesting link. Interview with Dr who uses NEAR IR for healing people. Well, if we give it to our plants, won't that make them better healers? And how much is too little or too much? What is the 'ideal' range?

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?noframes;read=213950


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## novice11 (Aug 26, 2011)

Well the RED SUNSs are on backorder again, should be in next week. They asked if I wanted to substitute a Giesemann Fiji Pink. I took a look at that bulb and said NO!!! It doesn't appear to be anything like the RED SUN (or Red Life, whatever).


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 28, 2011)

Hello everyone! hope the hurricane didnt do too much damage and everyone is safe!
*SO UPDATES UPDATES UPDATES*

SO i have harvested and dried 66.25g off my Kandy Kush!!
Thanks for everyones support and i will be starting my new crop in a month or so!
I will be here helping others and supporting further experimentation!
Im not going anywhere and this thread will stay open for everyone who is interested in my work!


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 28, 2011)

remember these guys selling lights only know what they do for fish... For tropical fish red makes the fish color "POP" like blacklight on white.. 
This is a picture of a beautiful REEF aquarium with fuji purple bulbs.. with actinic super blue and fuji purple.
Stands to reason that the living coral is VERY healthy with this combination.. it seems to be a popular trend among aquarium enthusiasts to keep their coral healthy..
Growing coral is MUCH more difficult than plants IMHO!!


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 29, 2011)

Not to mention the reason water is BLUE is not because it reflects blue light but because it absorbs red-Infrared light. the colder something is the more energy it absorbs including LIGHT! so for example since light is absorbed and refracted by water the corals living @ the bottom of the tank being PLANTS! in essence yes theyre animals but they absorb light because they have a great symbiosis with zooxanthellae hope i spelled that right! so these zooxanthellae need an abundance of light to support the soft bodied corals! i bet 1$ that these aquarium lights have a better canopy penetration than any HID on the market! if it can penetrate up to 3' of water it can penetrate through 1 foot of foliage!


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## hyroot (Aug 31, 2011)

Hey Prof, so I'm watching the science channel. A show about light in our universe. They say radio waves, sound waves, and microwaves are forms of infrared light. We can't see infrared light because the wave forms are so stretched out. This is caused by the universe expanding. Anyway One thing I gather from this is that could this be a reason for why plants like music so much.......?


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## MurshDawg (Aug 31, 2011)

here's my update pics guys. Please feel free to read my journal, thank you


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## AltarNation (Aug 31, 2011)

Hey pr0f--

Great thread, loving this stuff. I have a couple questions regarding a specific arrangement, if anyone wants to input on it:

My situation is this, I just bought a T-5 8-bulb setup and it came with 8 6500k AgroMax bulbs.

I WAS going to buy all new bulbs, but it is awfully painful for the pocket book right now, so I'd like to apply the 6500k veg bulbs at least.

What would you recommend for a flowering bulb line-up, given the use of the 6500k bulbs for veg?

Basically I'm wondering if there's an easy way I can get away with combining some of the red spectrum bulbs mentioned (like the Red Sun) with the already-purchased 6500k agromax bulbs for a flowering arrangement... or would I need to replace the 6500k's all together for flowering?

Thanks!
-AN


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## MurshDawg (Aug 31, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> here's my update pics guys. Please feel free to read my journal, thank you


Props to the Pr0fessur


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## pr0fesseur (Aug 31, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> here's my update pics guys. Please feel free to read my journal, thank you


not too bad with the spectralux bulbs... id try to replace @ least one or two of those with fujis though :-/
Keep up the good work i will be watching.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 1, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Hey pr0f--
> 
> Great thread, loving this stuff. I have a couple questions regarding a specific arrangement, if anyone wants to input on it:
> 
> ...


Im sorry to tell you that those bulbs have poor PAR however you could buy @ the very least 2 Fuji purps OR two Actinics in there.
RED SUNS ARE NOT TO FLOWER WITH... 
let me make this clearer 
RED SUN bulbs "AUGMENT" the light you provide you cant just add the red suns and expect results..... you want better flowering bulbs your going to HAVE to replace ALL your bulbs... theres just no way around it...
Think of it like cooking you cant use one ingredient to make pie now can you? what i suggest is to send that fixture back and get one without bulbs and save $$$$ by not getting them in the first place. if they gave them to you for free you still paid too much.(they were included in the purchase price) .. you cant and wont get ANY results using those bulbs >p e r i o d.<
I paid around 300 on my fixture and bulbs if you cant afford that @ least buy 4 bulbs 2 fujis and 2 actinics.. NOW and when you flower add 2 more red suns then when you can buy 2 additional bulbs a 451 and a 75.25... UVL with internal reflectors please 
I did review a red wave bulb thos MAY replace fujis but have far too much FAR red than id like to see.
ITS ALL ABOUT THE PAR PAR PAR PAR PARdamn echo


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 1, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Hey Prof, so I'm watching the science channel. A show about light in our universe. They say radio waves, sound waves, and microwaves are forms of infrared light. We can't see infrared light because the wave forms are so stretched out. This is caused by the universe expanding. Anyway One thing I gather from this is that could this be a reason for why plants like music so much.......?


? sorry i have to stop you..with an UM NO... 
They are ALL part of the EM spectrum


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 1, 2011)

*NOW THATS A GRAPH*


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## hyroot (Sep 1, 2011)

So that graph completely debunks what they were saying. That was a waste of an hour then


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## novice11 (Sep 1, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> @ least buy 4 bulbs 2 fujis and 2 actinics.. NOW and when you flower add 2 more red suns then when you can buy 2 additional bulbs a 451 and a 75.25... UVL with internal reflectors please
> I did review a red wave bulb thos MAY replace fujis but have far too much FAR red than id like to see.
> ITS ALL ABOUT THE PAR PAR PAR PAR PARView attachment 1764249damn echo


A bit of confusion again - I have the 8 bulb, you advised 3 Fiji / 1 454 / 1 420 Super Actinic / 3 RED SUN for bloom. The 75.25 was for veg, replaced for bloom with the 3rd RED SUN.
Here you have advised 2 FIJI / 2 Super Actinic / 2 RED SUN / a 451 (is that 454???) / 75.25 for Flower. 

So is the "extra" Super Actinic preferable to a 3rd FIJI ? And I thought the 75.25 was replaced with a RED SUN for Flower/Bloom stage. 

Please clear this up for all the 8 bulb users, thanks!


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## PetFlora (Sep 1, 2011)

Wow. Now I'm confused.

*novice11*: 

1. Do you have an 8 bulb fixture? I see now- 8 bulb. Me too.
2. Are you starting from scratch?
3. It sounds like you want to know which 4 bulbs for veg + 4 for flower?

I use half my Quantum during veg. Checking the aquarium specialty www, it looks like the 75.25 & Fiji compliment each other to flesh out the blues. I'm thinking 2 of each, alternating them should bath your young- uns in beautiful blue light. 

During flower I think you keep one 75.25 on each half of your fixture

If Pr0ff agrees, I will replace my Quantum 2700s with the above set up, but only because in over 2 months of asking, Quantum has still not posted the spectral graphs. That said, my 3 week old plants are looking very healthy


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## brainalive (Sep 1, 2011)

Questions for the pr0f:

(1) Where did you get the output spectrum for the Fiji?
(2) Do you know what the initial output of the Fiji is in lumens?

Thanks!


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## novice11 (Sep 1, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Wow. Now I'm confused.
> 
> *novice11*:
> 
> ...


He just told me a few posts ago what to do. But I use all 8 lights all the time.

He told me FIJI/RED/BLUE1/RED-(Bloom) or 75.25-(VEG)/FIJI/RED/BLUE2/FIJI where RED=RED SUN, BLUE1=Super Actinic, BLUE2=454. The 75.25 is for VEG, swapped out with a RED SUN for BLOOM. So 3 FIJI, 3 RED SUN *or* 2 RED SUN and 1 75.25, 1 Super Actinic, 1 454.

But he seems to have told you to use an additional Super Actinic instead of a 3rd FIJI. Thus my confusion.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 1, 2011)

novice11 said:


> A bit of confusion again - I have the 8 bulb, you advised 3 Fiji / 1 454 / 1 420 Super Actinic / 3 RED SUN for bloom. The 75.25 was for veg, replaced for bloom with the 3rd RED SUN.
> Here you have advised 2 FIJI / 2 Super Actinic / 2 RED SUN / a 451 (is that 454???) / 75.25 for Flower.
> 
> So is the "extra" Super Actinic preferable to a 3rd FIJI ? And I thought the 75.25 was replaced with a RED SUN for Flower/Bloom stage.
> ...


ok so let me straighten a few things out... 
I have 3 red myself 2 red suns and 1 PRO COLOR (discontinued) i mentioned replacing the PRO COLOR with a red sun if that made people happy...
the 75.25 or 12000K is the only bulb that really has any green in it so you need one of those..
the fuji purple are the base consider them your go-to bulb if you will.
youll need a 454 and a super blue or blue plus which ever you like better...
i probably confused you by even mentioning the 75.25 in that post.. 
"*@ least buy 4 bulbs 2 fujis and 2 actinics.. NOW* >for flowering<*and when you flower add 2 more red suns* THEN when you can*(afford it)* buy 2 additional bulbs a 451 and a 75.25... UVL with internal reflectors please" 
that was a recipe not for flowering but for bulbs to BUY and in which order....


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 1, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Wow. Now I'm confused.
> 
> *novice11*:
> 
> ...


Again great work people. 
i think you can use the 3rd fuji and the 3rd actinic as (preference bulbs) more base color or more actinic.. base color helps flowering because of the red, and actinic helps with resin production... theres no right way so long as you stick with the theme switch a 12000k or 75.25 out with a red when you flower and use heavy fuji and actinic as your base.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 1, 2011)

brainalive said:


> Questions for the pr0f:
> 
> (1) Where did you get the output spectrum for the Fiji?
> (2) Do you know what the initial output of the Fiji is in lumens?
> ...


Great question
(1) google kz fuji purple t5
(2) doesent matter why its all PAR you have to remember luminosity (lumen) is only for the human EYE not for PAR measurements.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 1, 2011)

hyroot said:


> So that graph completely debunks what they were saying. That was a waste of an hour then


no they probably just meant that its all the same thing..theyre all waves or particles , cept light is both.


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## Phillip J Fry (Sep 2, 2011)

hey love that lighting you got going on. I have a 4 bulb T5 fixture that i only veg with. What bulbs should i use to optimize my results?


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## PetFlora (Sep 2, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I don't see it as an alternative but a replacement..  more output W/W and when plasma comes down I'm going directly to that...
> There's no way that anyone could say HID is "Better because" when looking at Real facts and REAL scientific documentation, and REAL results there are more efficient less expensive ways to grow  Plasma WILL be the next Method. it fits both HID and LED Growers needs.. With the light spectrum almost IDENTICAL to the sun, indoor growers will be able to produce MONSTER plants! indoors with LESS wattage!


Unless the plasmas have 2 settings one for vg- one for flower- they are simply a compromise to both.


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## PetFlora (Sep 2, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 1big plant!


I got one as a hand-me-down. HUGE piece of crap


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## PetFlora (Sep 2, 2011)

Precog420 said:


> I would be so pissed about that many broken bulbs!, FedEx delivers most of my things, I havent had anything broken yet. luckily I guess! ordering from 5+sites can get rather expensive on shipping cost so it is rather nice that aquarium specialty has a large variety of quality bulbs.


after 4-6 phone calls they are consistently nice and helpful too


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## PetFlora (Sep 2, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Well since some of these lights are made in europe the Fiji purps can be had anywhere .. i would try to get those... im looking into T5 Led tubes.. still trying to source them... so hang tight.
> I cant imagine not being able to get these lights.. there @ any Aquarium store.. if not they will order them for you!
> as long as you get actinics and some of the bulbs i mention your going in the right direction... EBAY!! spend the cash and import them if you have to.. buy 6 or 8 @ a time...


Aquarium Specialties is now offering LEDs


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## novice11 (Sep 2, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> ok so let me straighten a few things out...
> I have 3 red myself 2 red suns and 1 PRO COLOR (discontinued) i mentioned replacing the PRO COLOR with a red sun if that made people happy...
> the 75.25 or 12000K is the only bulb that really has any green in it so you need one of those..
> the fuji purple are the base consider them your go-to bulb if you will.
> ...


I appreciate you clearing that up for us. pr0fesseur. Thanks!


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## PetFlora (Sep 2, 2011)

Long before coming across Pr0fs thread, I started a thread on another site titled *Are LEDs Misunderstood?* It was in response to having 2 grows using a UFO 90 from seed to flower, and not being as satisfied as the marketing hype suggested. Over time I learned that this UFO would be better for flower as it has 90/10: R/B, but even then it is really only good for one small bush or 2-3 small colas. Had I only known then what I know now. The same money would have gotten me a my BB + 8 aquarium bulbs. lol That said, it is still good to supplement. Using it now for my herbs- rosemary and basil, and it kicks ass for wheat grass. 

Anyway, contrary to pr0fs steadfast approach of not mixing B/R, at least during veg, I posed the question on my thread. Yesterday I got a response from a guy who has been making his own LEDs for several years. He says _*yes, *_you *do *want *both,* BUT, more B than R during veg; the opposite during flower. This validates my intuition regarding the make up of sun light from planting through to harvest. And throughout both you want some green to amp up chlorophyll A & B.

Not having funds to buy 8 new bulbs, I settled on 4: 2 Aqua Suns (nice green spike) and 2 Red Suns (pinch of blue and green). Upon receipt of my aquarium bulbs I mixed 2 Aqua Suns with my 2 Quantum Grows. The leafs seemed a bit on the light green side, but very healthy. I asked pr0f who strongly suggested this could be the fault of the red mix within the Aqua Sun. He is currently focused solely on using actinic blue for veg, so I went back to all Quantum Grows (still no clue what their actual color make up is). During this time I also popped some new seeds (same strain). The new plants are very healthy; now 3" tall with 3 leaf nodes, however, they too are lighter green than I am used to, so it could be the strain, which is new to me. I am using the exact same nutes. 

So today (after reading the response on my LED thread), I replaced 2 of the Quantums with 2 Aqua Suns. When I flip to flower I will replace the Grow Quantums with Flower Quantums and replace the Aqua Suns with Red Suns. It isn't ideal but it should work a lot better than all Quantums. Time will tell. Keep you all posted. hth


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## MurshDawg (Sep 2, 2011)

Just placed my order at Aquarium Specialties got two red suns and two 454s next I'll get these fiji's and I'll be set


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 2, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Unless the plasmas have 2 settings one for vg- one for flower- they are simply a compromise to both.


I call shenanigans, Plasmas provide the absolute closest copy to the sun we can make currently and represent 90% PAR They would only need far red supplementation during flowering! thats it...


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## novice11 (Sep 2, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Just placed my order at Aquarium Specialties got two red suns and two 454s next I'll get these fiji's and I'll be set


Well, I ordered 2 RED SUNS along with the 2 Blue and the 75.25 last week. The RED SUNs are due to be in sometime soon, I'm still waiting. And I have written 2 emails, 1 Wednesday and 1 today asking about it and have not received the courtesy of a reply. So the prices are good and the Customer Service sux.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 2, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Long before coming across Pr0fs thread, I started a thread on another site titled *Are LEDs Misunderstood?* It was in response to having 2 grows using a UFO 90 from seed to flower, and not being as satisfied as the marketing hype suggested. Over time I learned that this UFO would be better for flower as it has 90/10: R/B, but even then it is really only good for one small bush or 2-3 small colas. Had I only known then what I know now. The same money would have gotten me a my BB + 8 aquarium bulbs. lol That said, it is still good to supplement. Using it now for my herbs- rosemary and basil, and it kicks ass for wheat grass.
> 
> *Anyway, contrary to pr0fs steadfast approach of not mixing B/R, at least during veg, *I posed the question on my thread. Yesterday I got a response from a guy who has been making his own LEDs for several years. He says _*yes, *_you *do *want *both,* BUT, more B than R during veg; the opposite during flower. This validates my intuition regarding the make up of sun light from planting through to harvest. And throughout both you want some green to amp up chlorophyll A & B.
> 
> ...



I must interject again...during veg i grow with fuji purps which are ~>=50/50 red blue with actinics and a 75.25 or 12000k 
for green


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## PetFlora (Sep 3, 2011)

*Wazzup* just chimed in to my thread *Are LEDs Misunderstood*. He is from the Netherlands. Reading his many posts there, he seems to know quite a bit about lighting. Here is his response: 

_Let me try to illustrate the use and maturity of LED in professional greenhouse and climate room experiments as an example. For greenhouses LED's are not suitable to replace HPS top lighting yet. Philips and numerous other companies have done trials (including water cooled systems!) and they have no benefits over HPS. The general opinion among researchers is that LED's are perfect for providing a specific spectrum, but for good plant development you need a full continuous spectrum for the best development. Search for a Wageningen University research paper by Sander Hogewoning discussing artificial sunlight. 

Philips now researches LED's for interlighting (for additional growlight between the crop) and is getting some results with that, though the incomplete spectrum does stress the plants. _ _

The last big project in greenhouses and climate rooms is the vegetative growth of lettuce, but the generative growth is still done in a standard greenhouse or with other lighting. For tissue culture LED is great, and most plants veg under LED. For flowering plants need a much more complex, wider and complete spectrum of light. 

Now you also need to take into consideration that a greenhouse depends for the most on sunlight to provide the right spectrum, HPS lamps are only used as extra photons for photosynthesis. So it is wide full continuous spectrum for quality, hps for quantity. For climate rooms most lamp manufacturers recommend a combination of HPS and MH because HPS does not provide enough blue light. Hoewever, MH is much less efficient than HPS in producing photons. White LEDs are less efficient than red or blue ones. 

You also need to understand that a plant needs blue spectrum maintain and renew its photosynthetic system. A plant grown under a balanced spectrum will stay green and healthy a lot longer. 

The myths about UVA/UVB: It is already scientifically proven that UVB has an influence on trichome development on cannabis. The trichomes protect the plant, they are the only part of the plant that actually absorb the UVB. That also leads to a faster ripening of the trichomes btw, and will influence the cannabinoid content and types of cannabinoids. There is for example a theory that strains that grow on high altitudes (with high dosage of UVB, well above where other plants survive) contain high levels of THCV. You see that in Thai, Hawaiian and African strains that grow on high altitudes. 

Imho it is possible to make a LED light with a spectrum suitable for indoor but the problem is always the spikes in the spectrum. A plant does use green light, and every color is essential for a good development of a plant, it influences the morphology of the plant. You can see that with MH versus HPS, where the MH crop has short internodes, while under HPS plants stretch a lot. Don't forget that IR light (heat radiation) is also important for a plant. 

In horticulture we don't expect that LED will take over the HPS market very soon. HPS is still a very efficient light source and it is very cost effective. Be we do see a purpose already for steering light.
hth. _


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 3, 2011)

And this is why i mentioned using a broader spectrum using the T5 lamps verses the MH&HPS ive already posted the various SPD charts to show that not only do my lamps have a more "FULL" spectrum the beat the snot out of LED because Led typically just produces light in a very narrow band. however HPS and MH produce light in bands shown not to induce growth ie yellow light. and waste photons generating heat.. anything that produces heat instead of light is wasting electricity and inefficient. so what if they can produce MORE light in a smaller bulb, just by the inverse square law i win, my light is produced over a much larger area and travels a shorter distance to the leaf. being that the sun can only provide 1370W m/sq Given this number if i use 2 badboy 16 bulb lamps and tilt them over a 4' section im generating more light than the SUN!


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## AltarNation (Sep 4, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> the sun can only provide 1370W m/sq Given this number if i use 2 badboy 16 bulb lamps and tilt them over a 4' section im generating more light than the SUN!


Awesome. I seriously might do that down the line, when I have more space.

I know most people are all about the most bang for buck, but I have other concerns, such as heat safety in confined spaces, and not wanting to plunk down a ton more for heavy duty ventilation. And, as you said, the benefits are found in being able to move the plants so much closer to the light in the first place. I could see making a "tent" out of two at an angle, sounds awesome. Someday.

Oh, and an update, I ended up deciding to just bite the bullet and buy the bulbs. I have a nice setup along the lines you've described coming, minus the reds which are backordered to all hell because of all of us trying to buy up their bulbs. 

So I have this arrangement ordered:

for VEG:

FIJI
RED SUN
Super Actinic
75.25
FIJI
RED SUN
UVL 454
FIJI

Which blue bulb do I swap out to shift the balance towards red? I believe I read somewhere in this thread that the 75.25 gets swapped out for the red, but wouldn't that leave the flowering phase with no green spectrum? is that okay?

Reds will come next week, so they say... so I have to make do with the others for now.

Would you say I'd be best off leaving the agromax 6500k bulbs I already have, in place of the missing reds, for now? or should I leave those slots empty for now? (I am a little worried that adding the two red bulbs that are supposed to be in the veg mix late might induce flowering?? I will still have more blue than red as designed, but it's going to be so strongly blue-shifted before their addition that I'm wondering how the plant will respond.

Thanks for all your hard work and awesome input pr0f!


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## PetFlora (Sep 4, 2011)

To all potential Quantum Bad Boy purchasers, my 8 bulb has 2 separate o/o switches. It occurred to me I can erect a divider and use half for veg and half for flower *depending on diameter of said plants), which allows for a small perpetual grow set up. for small AF type plants

FYI I went to KorallenZucht website. They do not have a color spectrum chart for the Fiji. I emailed Aquarium Specialty to see whether they can locate. Since Pr0f said he posted it I went back from the beginning, but did not find it. Then I came across Precog420 post on page 28-29, which has a link that shows it. Once I saw it, yes Pr0f posted it, BUT there was no name referencing the graph. hth


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## PetFlora (Sep 4, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> And this is why i mentioned using a broader spectrum using the T5 lamps verses the MH&HPS ive already posted the various SPD charts to show that not only do my lamps have a more "FULL" spectrum the beat the snot out of LED because Led typically just produces light in a very narrow band. however HPS and MH produce light in bands shown not to induce growth ie yellow light. and waste photons generating heat.. anything that produces heat instead of light is wasting electricity and inefficient. so what if they can produce MORE light in a smaller bulb, just by the inverse square law i win, my light is produced over a much larger area and travels a shorter distance to the leaf. being that the sun can only provide 1370W m/sq Given this number if i use 2 badboy 16 bulb lamps and tilt them over a 4' section im generating more light than the SUN!


It's a chore getting at the bulbs in the middle of my 8 bulb, I wouldn't want to do that with a 16. Besides 2 @ 8 allows better management of plants with different heights, or experimenting vertically. 

Instead of tilting them, how about putting a reflector on top?


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## PetFlora (Sep 4, 2011)

*Alternation*

Do you mean Aqua Suns for veg? Red Suns seem better suited for flower, but you do have a lot of blue in there already. 

Wish we could get the color spectrum graph for the Fiji. _*Update: Precog420 posted a link to it back on pg 28.*_


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## AltarNation (Sep 4, 2011)

Naw, he said use some red suns in veg too, and then swap out one blue bulb for a red to offset the balance enough to trigger flowering later.


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## novice11 (Sep 4, 2011)

I believe he said to swap out the 75.25 for a RED SUN.


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## PetFlora (Sep 4, 2011)

In case anyone is interested MelloKitty managed to acquire the Quantum Triphosphor graphs and sent them to me. Thanks again MelloK

The color ranges are decent enough in the Grow bulb, almost no blue in the Bloom, both lacking in intensity, certainly not worth the premium you pay for them (MSRP is ~ $12), I saw them on line as low as $8.99, which is about what I paid, but I bought 8 of each. Comparing graphs, it appears that the aquarium bulbs are easily worth twice the price. 

I have nothing to compare, as this will be my first full grow using the BB. I was very happy with my last vegg effort with the Quantums, but a heat wave right as I flipped to 12/12 turned all 4 plants into males, so I pulled them. And then along came Pr0f.

My new grow is only 2 weeks old, this time a bulb mix: 2 Quantum Grows and 2 *Aqua Suns*. Plants are already 3+" tall, with very thick and healthy leaf sets. The main stalks are thick and hardy. When I flip I will probably use* 2 Aqua Suns and 2 Red Suns. *or 1 Quantum Bloom (it does have strong green and red spike at ~ 500 & 620) and 1 Red Sun. 

Viva Pr0f, and his effort to post a thread hypothesizing the probable benefits of aquarium bulbs, which are about 4xs as intense as the Quantums, which are probably comparable to any 'standard' HO bulb so not worth the premium. hth


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## PetFlora (Sep 4, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I must interject again...during veg i grow with fuji purps which are ~>=50/50 red blue with actinics and a 75.25 or 12000k
> for green


_My bad, Let me rephrase that. You seem to prefer bulbs with concentrated spectrums, which you then mix side-by-side. _


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 4, 2011)

Makes more sense no? controlling the mix yourself allows u to customize the light to your situation and strain... i would prefer a light source "I" control rather than trying to find that one perfect bulb.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 4, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Alternation*
> 
> Do you mean Aqua Suns for veg? Red Suns seem better suited for flower, but you do have a lot of blue in there already.
> 
> Wish we could get the color spectrum graph for the Fiji.


 Ive already posted them a couple of times... check the begining of the thread


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 4, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Alternation*
> 
> Do you mean Aqua Suns for veg? Red Suns seem better suited for flower, but you do have a lot of blue in there already.
> 
> Wish we could get the color spectrum graph for the Fiji.


No red suns for veg.. theres plenty of red in the fuji purps...


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## MurshDawg (Sep 4, 2011)

Here's a little weekly update. I got four total; three fems and a mystery bean. I'm going to take clippings hopefully in the next three weeks nothin but t5s! I got my bulbs being shipped so I'll go from a "dual" spectrum to a "quad" spectrum.


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## PetFlora (Sep 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Makes more sense no? controlling the mix yourself allows u to customize the light to your situation and strain... i would prefer a light source "I" control rather than trying to find that one perfect bulb.


Yes and no. 

The reason I bought a BB was after reading* BendMC*s BB T5 thread _using standard bulbs. _His grow was impressive. So my thinking is _while the __Aqua Sun / Red Sun have mixed spectrums, when used correctly, they should significantly outperform the Quantums by themselves. _ 

So I'm thinking that mixing the Aqua Sun with the Quantum Grow bulbs ( a pretty decent grow bulb) then at flower switching to Red Suns mixed with the Quantum Blooms (very little blue, but a nice green/red spike) should be better still. Now, if I didn't already own the Quantums, I would be more _inclined _to mix them up as you are, but even then... 

So going back to your/my question _"Is it better to mix color specific bulbs, or, simply use quality aquarium blended bulbs like the AS/RS? _My thought on this is: the AS/RS will do a better job of evenly spreading the light over the canopy, whereas _separate _wave length specific bulbs placed side-by-side less so. To me, it seems you will need to keep your lights farther from the plants to facilitate color blending. Speculative I know. I will be very interested to follow your next grow. An A/B test would be interesting, but either way, I think we are going to come out winners. And again, I thank for for the direction. 

I am about to start a journal on another site that is LED crazy. My thread over there *Are LEDs Misunderstood* has over 11K views. My HPA + UFO 90 has over 53K views. I am now in my 5th HPA grow (feel ready for prime time), as long as I can get past transitioning the young plants from bubbler to my HPA pod (the most difficult) I'll start a journal titled *HPA + T5 Using Aquarium HO Bulbs. *That should shake things up over there. 

hth


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## AltarNation (Sep 5, 2011)

Okay, taking the above comment about no red suns in Veg into account, I think my misinterpretation must have come from the fact that I should have some red SPECTRUM, (not red suns) in my veg stage... and since I have fiji purps, that is covering that...

So my thoughts are, all things considered, I could just go with a six-bulb setup for veg and an 8-bulb for flower. So my veg would be:

FIJI PURP
Super Actinic
75.25
FIJI PURP
UVL 454
FIJI PURP

with two empty slots (or I'll leave the agromax 6500k bulbs in there for shits)

Then at flower I can just add the two Red Suns into the empty slots, and the third Red Sun replaces the 75.25...

Much thanks all around! Glad I didn't put the red suns into my veg arrangement already.


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## PetFlora (Sep 5, 2011)

PakaloloHui said:


> The strain is White Shark. I have not grown it before. I had someone grow for me for a year until I got situated, and got the seeds from some of the medicine.
> 
> It looks like it will pull off just over 2oz. under my 6 bulb T-5. It still has maybe 20+ days left. It can still bulk up on me yet and give me more than I anticipate.


Your grow looks amazing. What light configuration are you using?


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## PetFlora (Sep 5, 2011)

reverof said:


> Now I know why so few people will follow this thread or pipe up.... I read this thread from start to finish, I know what you are testing, point is regardless if the plants grow 10 feet tall, if they yield crap then the lights are crap for the use of flowering mj.... I have no hopes or dreams that you are gonna get 10oz a plant, but curious as to what the yield actually is. if your yield averages .75-1oz from each plant then I find the lights to be very probable, being you were testing for not harvest but growth and finishing of the plant... the only true way to know if they flower correctly is to see the end result. If you dont agree with that, then maybe you need to go back to school, as good growth with little yield means nothing as this is a forum and testing grounds for cultivation of mj not roses.


Rev: There is a complete grow on another site using standard bulbs (I think Quantum). I was so impressed that I bought my BB 8 bulb. Google *BendMC* for his thread. I can only speculate (as I am 3 weeks in veg- with awesome main stalks and lovely growth) that flowering results will be similar using the Red Suns. hth


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

What no one understands is that Yeild is entirely dependent on 3 factors
1. STRAIN
2. NUTRIENTS
3. GROWER

NOT LIGHTS, hard to believe i know but given the same light source you can yield as much as you want given you allow the plant to veg long enough and provide the PAR a plant needs to grow. and for those nonbelievers ive seen 1lb a plant from only T5That being said there is a point where you reach diminishing returns. The sun only provides ~1360W sq/m and 100% PAR/PUR.
If you grow the same strain in a DWC with the right nutrients and a grower who knows has strain he will out perform a soil grow any day of the week. The reason you cannot apply the final product to the scientific method is you cant measure 2 separate things @ once using the scientific method. 
Any one who knows physics can tell you that you cant measure both speed and distance @ the same time. Read about the laws of special relativity then pick up a book or go back to school with your ignorance in check. 
I am only measuring the efficacy of my T5 vs standard T5, not yield. 
I could have used flowers or buckwheat... or peas, grapes tomatoes. yield is not a determining factor to the viability of a light source, its a perk. Even if you had a larger yield lets say 25% more with HPS/MH and we both grew grapes, lets say i had a higher sugar content, i would get a better price for my grapes than you would regardless of total weight! Thats a simple law of economics. An even more basic principal is the law of scarcity, my quality is better so therefore i can demand more $. If one cannot grasp those concepts you need to STOP doing drugs immediately!
I have Phd peer reviewed science to back up my experiments and have yet to see someone post 1 conflicting document. Until then lets all keep growing and sharing instead of speaking out of our as*s*es...

side note 
I dont have to keep my lights farther than anyone else light does not "mix" (optical illusion)the sheer fact that you can even observe light is only because that light actually "reveals" the quantum state of an object. using Actinics verses Mixed bulbs has MANY advantages firstly PAR... ANY bulb that uses multiple phosphors like <12000K bulbs have less PAR, plants dont care what "kind" of light they get so long as its in the "PAR" range... if i have 1 actinic and 1 red sun i have 100% par, on the other hand the 75.25 and aqua suns have about 70% because the produce light that is out of the ideal "PAR" range.
I have a post called ACTINICS EXPLAINED please read.


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## novice11 (Sep 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> No red suns for veg.. theres plenty of red in the fuji purps...


HUH? I have 2 RED SUNS for Veg, as you previously suggested...is this a test?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

novice11 said:


> HUH? I have 2 RED SUNS for Veg, as you previously suggested...is this a test?


Someone please find the post where i told someone to use red suns for veg?


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## novice11 (Sep 5, 2011)

Phillip J Fry said:


> hey love that lighting you got going on. I have a 4 bulb T5 fixture that i only veg with. What bulbs should i use to optimize my results?


I believe earlier in this thread he suggested a FIJI/BLUE/RED/FIJI setup for a 4 bulb. Not sure if you swap in a 75.25 for the RED in VEG for a 4 bulb, it would seem to make sense though.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

ya that setup is 50/50 R/B only 4 bulbs any other combination would throw off your ratio... all Fujis would be the same but more $$$ thus he would have the perfect veg "PAR" by providing 50/50 you complete the blue and red requirements in the 400nm range and 600nm range... any other bulbs would be reducing PAR.
In an 8 bulb setup i have more room to add extra lights.. Now when i add the red suns and take out the 75.25 or 454 im now 60/40 red blue.... anyone get this?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

altarnation said:


> okay, taking the above comment about no red suns in veg into account, i think my misinterpretation must have come from the fact that i should have some red spectrum, (not red suns) in my veg stage... And since i have fiji purps, that is covering that...
> 
> So my thoughts are, all things considered, i could just go with a six-bulb setup for veg and an 8-bulb for flower. So my veg would be:
> 
> ...


yes^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Naw, he said use some red suns in veg too, and then swap out one blue bulb for a red to offset the balance enough to trigger flowering later.


 YEs for small 4 bulbs setups you would need the red to get the 50/50 R/B


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> To all potential Quantum Bad Boy purchasers, my 8 bulb has 2 separate o/o switches. It occurred to me I can erect a divider and use half for veg and half for flower, which allows for a small perpetual grow set up. for small AF type plants
> 
> FYI I went to KorallenZucht website. They do not have a color spectrum chart for the Fiji. hth


As requested here you go!

View attachment 1771091


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> As requested here you go!
> 
> View attachment 1771091


YOU CAN USE THE RED SUNS FOR VEG SO LONG AS THERE IS ACTINICS FOR 50/50 i use 2 red suns but i have 2 super actinics to balance the light to 50/50 
if you have a small 4 light i would suggest fuji red blue fuji
if you have a six bulb i would suggest fuji blue 75.25 red blue fuji... 
get it try o keep the red less than or = to blue...
DO NOT however unbalance that ratio.. it wont force flowering but it will induce the plant to stop "vegging." and growth starts to slow stalks get spindly...etc...


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## novice11 (Sep 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> spacing should be as such
> you want the plants to get an even light pattern so try to space lights 2 bulbs away from each of the similar spectrum.
> fuji
> blue
> ...


Isn't this where I asked about my 8 bulb array? And we switch the 75.25 for (another) RED SUN for BLOOM?

If this isn't correct, I must ask for you to list out a proper 8 bulb array for VEG and say WHAT gets swapped out for BLOOM/FLOWER for the same 8 bulb setup.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Isn't this where I asked about my 8 bulb array? And we switch the 75.25 for (another) RED SUN for BLOOM?
> 
> If this isn't correct, I must ask for you to list out a proper 8 bulb array for VEG and say WHAT gets swapped out for BLOOM/FLOWER for the same 8 bulb setup.


This is correct... 
i was assuming people were wanting to use red suns for veg.. not a mix... once you bloom take out 75.25 then replace with red to make 60/40 R/B
you could also use
fuji
blue
fuji
fuji
red 
fuji
fuji
blue
hell you "could" use all Fuji purps... but thats $$$$$
its all about "balance"

or any other combination ... 
thats why i wrote 
"this is an example"


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## novice11 (Sep 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> This is correct...
> i was assuming people were wanting to use red suns for veg.. not a mix... once you bloom take out 75.25 then replace with red to make 60/40 R/B


PHEW!...thought I had "over-indulged"...LOL.

pr0fesseur - as most of these questions seem to ask about "what bulbs to use" in a 4 / 6 / 8 bulb array AND what to swap out from VEG to FLOWER/BLOOM....I still think it would be most helpful to have that matrix posted and then it can be referred to when asked (yet) again...."See post # 123".

I would be happy to work this out offline and send you a PM with the result, you could edit it and then use that as the go to post.

It just seems that it would be more efficient and less repetition. IMHO.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

sounds like i have some work to do ....
Anyone want to do a chart? 
I can provide all the SPD charts and lets do a google doc matrix agreed?
we can then do a price breakdown on bulbs as well as vendors..
any takers to help????


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## PetFlora (Sep 5, 2011)

brainalive said:


> Questions for the pr0f:
> 
> (1) Where did you get the output spectrum for the Fiji?
> (2) Do you know what the initial output of the Fiji is in lumens? Thanks!


_*1. Precog posted it on page 28 or 29. Pr0f did earlier but neglected to provide the name.*_
2. *I don't recall that being there.*


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## PetFlora (Sep 5, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Well, I ordered 2 RED SUNS along with the 2 Blue and the 75.25 last week. The RED SUNs are due to be in sometime soon, I'm still waiting. And I have written 2 emails, 1 Wednesday and 1 today asking about it and have not received the courtesy of a reply. So the prices are good and the Customer Service sux.


Try calling. There are only a couple people working there with lots going on. Email likely suffers.


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## novice11 (Sep 5, 2011)

4 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE / FIJI ................................................BLOOM/FLOWER=SAME

6 BULB - VEG = FIJI / BLUE1 / 75.25 / FIJI / RED / BLUE2 .....................BLOOM/FLOWER = Replace 75.25 with RED

8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI .....BLOOM/FLOWER = Replace 75.25 with RED 

BLUE1 = UVL Super ACTINIC @ 420nm 
BLUE2 = UVL 454nm
RED = UVL RED SUN 630nm
FIJI = KorallenZucht FIJI PURPLE 630nm & 440nm 
75.25 = UVL 75.25 (VEG ONLY)

How that for starters?


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## PetFlora (Sep 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Someone please find the post where i told someone to use red suns for veg?


Actually I saw where you said this in effect 4-5 pages back. when you said _no Red Suns for bloom. _Clearly a fo-pa, (easy to confuse *Aqua Sun *with *Red Sun *when you are responding to a bunch of questions) but confusing to those who are running as fast as we can to catch up. It is only today (rereading the entire thread) that I finally get why I need Blue Actinic in flower. I stil don't get the Fijis being any better than say Aqua Suns for veg.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

View attachment 1771545
Fuji PURP SPD

Aquasun SPD 

Anyone notice a difference?
Maybe I'm hallucinating but i DEFINITELY notice a HUGE difference
Sometimes i can be a raving lunatic... but look closely and youll see all the difference


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## hyroot (Sep 5, 2011)

prof Im confused as all hell. In a much earlier post you said when you bloom add the red sun bulbs where the actinic (blue) ones are (75.25, 454, Super Actinic) . I thought the actinics and 454 were just for veg.

for flower im rockin 3 red sun,, 3 fiji and 2 ati aqua blue 12000k. so is this the wrong set up?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

hyroot said:


> prof Im confused as all hell. In a much earlier post you said when you bloom add the red sun bulbs where the actinic (blue) ones are (75.25, 454, Super Actinic) . I thought the actinics were just for veg.
> 
> for flower im rockin 3 red sun,, 3 fiji and 2 ati aqua blue 12000k. so is this the wrong set up?


No your fine .... the aqua blues are fine they have a HUGE (actinic) blue spike to them AND a good green spike and a good red spike.... I only have 1x12000k so i leave in the actinics im good...
I cant only have 1 bulb in at a time.. they must be pairs... the more blue you use the shorter plants seem to be but i had room to let my plants get large thus keeping a pro color 
I have a procolor bulb that changes how i have my reds and blues... the 75.25 is almost the same as the 12000k both have their 
some 12000k bulbs have less blue actinic in them the ATI blue are +++++ blue! 
My setup is also very AD-hock... im trying to keep as many combinations in my ballast as possible for experimentation..


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## hyroot (Sep 5, 2011)

sweet. I was kind of trippin and can't really afford more bulbs right now.


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## Precog420 (Sep 5, 2011)

I have been really busy lately, but everything is taken care of now, This is my first grow and i was planning on keeping it small and cheap, but, As of last night my new 10x10 room was finished  double sided wall with insulation :. I will finally be able to post some more pics of my T5 grow. All of the plants look AMAZING with stacking nodes, The pics that i will uploading will be 2 months into veg.


Prof Ive learned so much in this thread I could never thank you enough! many thanks to everyone that keep up on this thread as well.


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## hyroot (Sep 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> No your fine .... the aqua blues are fine they have a HUGE (actinic) blue spike to them AND a good green spike and a good red spike.... I only have 1x12000k so i leave in the actinics im good...
> I cant only have 1 bulb in at a time.. they must be pairs... the more blue you use the shorter plants seem to be but i had room to let my plants get large thus keeping a pro color
> I have a procolor bulb that changes how i have my reds and blues... the 75.25 is almost the same as the 12000k both have their
> some 12000k bulbs have less blue actinic in them the ATI blue are +++++ blue!
> My setup is also very AD-hock... im trying to keep as many combinations in my ballast as possible for experimentation..


Im using a whole room, so I have room for height. I plan on adding another badboy eventually. Should I change out one of the aqua blue? I want them to get big. I veg under other lights in another room I do LST and super cropping.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 5, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Im using a whole room, so I have room for height. I plan on adding another badboy eventually. Should I change out one of the aqua blue? I want them to get big. I veg under other lights in another room I do LST and super cropping.


 Nah your good once you have 16 bulbs you will do a 4 bulb x4 bulb...
you will be able to use 4 different bulbs..


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## hyroot (Sep 5, 2011)

cool thanks


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## MeanJean (Sep 6, 2011)

So new guy hear been reading your post find your hardcore evidence and dedication to the subject amazing and was gonna give this system a try. Buying a T5 bad boy 8 bulb lighting system soon and was wondering if i could get a list of the lights you have been using to good effect for seed/veg/flower stages.


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## PetFlora (Sep 6, 2011)

For anyone interested in some in depth research regarding LED lighting my thread Are LEDs Misunderstood has attracted some excellent minds. Here is an excerpt on UVB (note they are thinking short blasts):

_I devoted most of my research to this topic, as currently there is more that we don't know about than we know for sure. 

For cannabis, we are narrowing down the spectrum that works better, at least for whole grows. Except for the UV range, we know decently what we need to use, and how to vary attending to different situations.* Now we need to find optimal spectrums for each stage of development and situations as well as "tricks" allowing to affect some traits by lighting manipulation.* I think possibilities of LEDs on this are really huge and severely under researched. Blast of light of narrow wavelengths or combinations of narrow wavelengths for short periods of time have the potential of strongly affect outcomes.

Just an example: could strong blue light blasts affect in a similar way than UV? (I suspect so). Either a pair of hours a day, maybe blasts during three days each 15 days, or at the mid of veg period, then after flowering induction and finally at ripening, etc. Possibilities are almost endless. Or, does a blast of very narrow UVB (290 +-5nm, for example) have a different effect or intensity response that wide UVB or UVB+UVA irradiation?_


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## PetFlora (Sep 6, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 1771545
> Fuji PURP SPD
> View attachment 1771534
> Aquasun SPD
> ...


Seeing them side-by-side I see that the Fiji has a lot more red. Now I understand why they are your 'go-to' bulbs for both veg & flower. I will be getting some of them for sure.


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## cjd (Sep 6, 2011)

*pr0fesseur, I have been a lurker for a while now and you are doing what I thought would be a great source of lighting. I like the way you are doing and going with this, you are using Science. I was going the LED route but your testing has put that on hold for a bit. Many moons ago I played around with aquarium lighting for plant growth at a pet store I worked at with not great results. But this was 20 years ago. I was considering using another aquarium tool. Do you know of or does anyone know if there has been any experimenting using a light timer, such as the type used for Reef aquariums. I know there are people working on introducing far red into their lighting, you being one of them, and from what I have read the unknown is the timing. I am wondering if there is a chart of what nm's are present and at what intensities at specific times of the day. For example unless I misunderstood what I read, far red is present before the sunrise. Also the intensity of the wavelengths are different threw out the day so I see a timer being an asset. I believe some of the LED people are switching on only the far red diodes for a time before any of the others, and at the end of the cycle they switch off all but the far red. I believe 1 hr on both ends. I think it may be a cheap and effective way to squeeze every last bit of potential out of indoor lighting and improve the quality of the end product. I was thinking about using lights with only 2 bulbs per unit to make the switching on easier. Unless you know of a 8 bulb light that works on 4 independent switches. What do you think? Or am I wasting time on something that would make a negligible difference. 
*


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## MurshDawg (Sep 6, 2011)

cjd said:


> *pr0fesseur, I have been a lurker for a while now and you are doing what I thought would be a great source of lighting. I like the way you are doing and going with this, you are using Science. I was going the LED route but your testing has put that on hold for a bit. Many moons ago I played around with aquarium lighting for plant growth at a pet store I worked at with not great results. But this was 20 years ago. I was considering using another aquarium tool. Do you know of or does anyone know if there has been any experimenting using a light timer, such as the type used for Reef aquariums. I know there are people working on introducing far red into their lighting, you being one of them, and from what I have read the unknown is the timing. I am wondering if there is a chart of what nm's are present and at what intensities at specific times of the day. For example unless I misunderstood what I read, far red is present before the sunrise. Also the intensity of the wavelengths are different threw out the day so I see a timer being an asset. I believe some of the LED people are switching on only the far red diodes for a time before any of the others, and at the end of the cycle they switch off all but the far red. I believe 1 hr on both ends. I think it may be a cheap and effective way to squeeze every last bit of potential out of indoor lighting and improve the quality of the end product. I was thinking about using lights with only 2 bulbs per unit to make the switching on easier. Unless you know of a 8 bulb light that works on 4 independent switches. What do you think? Or am I wasting time on something that would make a negligible difference.
> *


 +rep!!!!! great question


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## cannabineer (Sep 6, 2011)

Another new guy here being drawn out of the lurkosphere! I am tiptoeing back into growing for myself; I had a coupla grows in the previous century. (grin)
I'm starting out very small. I really don't want to f*** with HIDs in a rented space, and I was soooo close to pulling the trigger on an LED grow panel before finding this thread. The Pr0fesseur's method and passion have won me over.
So I have a small light on order, 4x 24 inch bulbs, to prove concept to myself ... not so much whether the Pr0f's ideas work - I consider that demonstrated - but whether I can have a small simple grow to call my own. 

Bulbs - I selected 2x Fiji Purple, 1x UVl Super Actinic, and 1x ATI Aquablue for veg. I will swap the Aquablue for a Red Sun for flowering. 

Opinions in re my bulb choices? cheers 'neer


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 6, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> Another new guy here being drawn out of the lurkosphere! I am tiptoeing back into growing for myself; I had a coupla grows in the previous century. (grin)
> I'm starting out very small. I really don't want to f*** with HIDs in a rented space, and I was soooo close to pulling the trigger on an LED grow panel before finding this thread. The Pr0fesseur's method and passion have won me over.
> So I have a small light on order, 4x 24 inch bulbs, to prove concept to myself ... not so much whether the Pr0f's ideas work - I consider that demonstrated - but whether I can have a small simple grow to call my own.
> 
> ...


good choice in bulbs thats a good mix for veg and bloom


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 6, 2011)

PrOfesseur? Did I see you say that you use VHO bulbs in your HO ballast? something about they last longer? I didn't think one could use VHO lamps in a HO set up. I'm going to buy the 54 watt HO bulbs (w/reflectors where possible) and wanted to make sure that was the right choice.

Would you suggest any additional bulbs in a 16 bulb lamp than you have already mentioned? 

Thanks for sharing all this info you've compiled with us.

Sub'd & Voted


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 6, 2011)

MeanJean said:


> So new guy hear been reading your post find your hardcore evidence and dedication to the subject amazing and was gonna give this system a try. Buying a T5 bad boy 8 bulb lighting system soon and was wondering if i could get a list of the lights you have been using to good effect for seed/veg/flower stages.


I know this is a long thread but a few pages ago we covered that..


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 6, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> PrOfesseur? Did I see you say that you use VHO bulbs in your HO ballast? something about they last longer? I didn't think one could use VHO lamps in a HO set up. I'm going to buy the 54 watt HO bulbs (w/reflectors where possible) and wanted to make sure that was the right choice.
> 
> Would you suggest any additional bulbs in a 16 bulb lamp than you have already mentioned?
> 
> ...


Aquarium bulbs usually are V-HO meaning they are both... that is to say that they are either underdriven VHO bulbs or overdrive capable HO bulbs any way you slice it thats they way they come!
The UVL bulbs have an internal reflector series 
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting/t5-lamps/uv-lighting/uv-lighting-t5-w-reflectors


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 6, 2011)

cjd said:


> *pr0fesseur, I have been a lurker for a while now and you are doing what I thought would be a great source of lighting. I like the way you are doing and going with this, you are using Science. I was going the LED route but your testing has put that on hold for a bit. Many moons ago I played around with aquarium lighting for plant growth at a pet store I worked at with not great results. But this was 20 years ago. I was considering using another aquarium tool. Do you know of or does anyone know if there has been any experimenting using a light timer, such as the type used for Reef aquariums. I know there are people working on introducing far red into their lighting, you being one of them, and from what I have read the unknown is the timing. I am wondering if there is a chart of what nm's are present and at what intensities at specific times of the day. For example unless I misunderstood what I read, far red is present before the sunrise. Also the intensity of the wavelengths are different threw out the day so I see a timer being an asset. I believe some of the LED people are switching on only the far red diodes for a time before any of the others, and at the end of the cycle they switch off all but the far red. I believe 1 hr on both ends. I think it may be a cheap and effective way to squeeze every last bit of potential out of indoor lighting and improve the quality of the end product. I was thinking about using lights with only 2 bulbs per unit to make the switching on easier. Unless you know of a 8 bulb light that works on 4 independent switches. What do you think? Or am I wasting time on something that would make a negligible difference.
> *


+rep good question
YES i would love to use a ballast with times however im not paying 700$ for one! that being said most lamps have one two or 4 switches and only 1 cord  so thats not going to work.. however there are DIY retro kits i have mentioned here before that you can DIY a setup... is it worth it... maybe will the yeild be affected who knows... will it grow better bud probably not.
Plants react to different wavelengths by producing hormones based on what wavelength they recieve.. i know NOTHING about the hormones that these plants produce other than names and what roles they play... NOW
Animals on th other hand react DIFFERENTLY to light! that is to say it induces "behavior" so i would have to say maybe a timer on something like a UV lamp would affect growth .. but red light probably not...


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 6, 2011)

I must say today i smoked my first of my Kandy kush, and while she smells tame im zonked its hard to spell hard to do anything really.... and no headache! and for this reason i love love love organics! and even made a nice little ball of bubble hash which was gifted to my buddy whos never smoked real hash before. i am left with just enough to tide me over till next grow 60g should las a little while.... maybe not @ this rate!!!


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## Izoc666 (Sep 6, 2011)

hey fellas, i was researching to get a light for my grow tent soon...my wife really like to get me a LED (Sunshine Systems 45WT LED Grow Light) instead of HID light....so my wife found this one and asked me if i like this one....so i really dont know much about LED if you can help me out if this one is good enough for few plants. its at the sears. if you can click below and check it out for me , please ?

?http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_01299273000P?prdNo=13&blockNo=13&blockType=G13

if you have any better advice for me to get kind of different LED as long as its under 150 bucks. I will be highly appreicate it. thanks for your time.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 6, 2011)

Izoc666 said:


> hey fellas, i was researching to get a light for my grow tent soon...my wife really like to get me a LED (Sunshine Systems 45WT LED Grow Light) instead of HID light....so my wife found this one and asked me if i like this one....so i really dont know much about LED if you can help me out if this one is good enough for few plants. its at the sears. if you can click below and check it out for me , please ?
> 
> ?http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_01299273000P?prdNo=13&blockNo=13&blockType=G13
> 
> if you have any better advice for me to get kind of different LED as long as its under 150 bucks. I will be highly appreicate it. thanks for your time.


Don't waste your money. You can't buy a good L.E.D system for 150$


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## Izoc666 (Sep 6, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Don't waste your money. You can't buy a good L.E.D system for 150$


really ? I thought so since my wife is really greenthumb...not cannabis  anyways im going to get HID for sure. thanks.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 6, 2011)

BadBoy 16 lamp T-5 $350, 18 T-5 Aquarium lights $371, A 4x4 grow area with 777 watts of 100% P.A.R lighting Priceless! 


Sorry I had to.
Can't wait to put the girls under it.


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## Izoc666 (Sep 6, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> BadBoy 16 lamp T-5 $350, 18 T-5 Aquarium lights $371, A 4x4 grow area with 777 watts of 100% P.A.R lighting Priceless!
> 
> 
> Sorry I had to.
> Can't wait to put the girls under it.


lol its all good...happy growing ....peace


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 6, 2011)

T5 for you invest a few $$$ in bulbs and get a light that will make the same pretty light your Wife AND your Girls will love!
170$shipped!
http://www.home-hydroponics.co/T5-2Ft-8-Tube-Designer-System-w-Bulbs-10659.htm


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## Izoc666 (Sep 6, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 1774075View attachment 1774077T5 for you invest a few $$$ in bulbs and get a light that will make the same pretty light your Wife AND your Girls will love!
> 170$shipped!
> http://www.home-hydroponics.co/T5-2Ft-8-Tube-Designer-System-w-Bulbs-10659.htm


yeah it looks real good, i have checked it out, ill talk to my wife about it. thanks a lot for link


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 8, 2011)

I am considering the following bulb setup for a new 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy in a 2' x 4' x 5.5' tent. Bulb budget is $250.00. I just priced it out, and I would be able to purchase the 12 bulbs below (4 blue rotated with 4 red) for $250.00 shipped from Aquarium Specialty.

I am really interested in hearing what you guys think:

VEGETATIVE
1 Giesemann aquaflora
2 UV Lighting 454
3 UV Lighting super actinic
4 Korallen Zucht fiji purple
5 Korallen Zucht fiji purple
6 UV Lighting super actinic
7 UV Lighting 454
8 Giesemann aquaflora



FLOWERING
1 Giesemann aquaflora
2 UV Lighting red sun
3 Korallen Zucht fiji purple
4 UV Lighting red sun
5 Giesemann aquaflora
6 UV Lighting red sun
7 Korallen Zucht fiji purple
8 UV Lighting red sun


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## PetFlora (Sep 8, 2011)

I think you want the Red Suns on the inside. Probably Fijis on the outsides


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 8, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> I am considering the following bulb setup for a new 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy in a 2' x 4' x 5.5' tent. Bulb budget is $250.00. I just priced it out, and I would be able to purchase the 12 bulbs below (4 blue rotated with 4 red) for $250.00 shipped from Aquarium Specialty.
> 
> I am really interested in hearing what you guys think:
> 
> ...


Obviously you havent looked at the SPD charts for the AQUA flora... Stay away from them... These bulbs have far too much yellow in them to be efficient the blue peaks @ 400nm which is not as efficient as 420-450 their SPD charts also seems a bit suspect.... 
Consider instead Ati Blue+ or *ATI aquablue special*









Side note 
try to space your bulbs so that your colors are as close to each other as possible and evenly spaced. 
1
2
3
4
1
2
3
4


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 8, 2011)

Hrmmm

Well, I was thinking that I would have plenty of blue light with the 2 454s and the 2 super actinics (with supplemental blue spillover coming from the 2 fiji purples and 2 ???... where ??? could be the aquaflora, or some other, better bulb for the purpose).

But I am still thinking that the preferred ??? bulb is something with decent red spillover during flowering, as well as the blue since these bulbs will remain in the Bad Boy during both vegetative and flowering growth. I am also thinking that the preferred bulb should have a green peak. I see the ??? bulb filling sort of the same role as the fiji purples (decent blue/red/green) for all phases

The Giesemann midday isn't bad either and shares similar peaks... just a little less specific

Giesemann midday:




Giesemann aquaflora:


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## PetFlora (Sep 8, 2011)

I defer to Pr0f, but I am more inclined towards more green than he, BUT, the Fiji may provide more than enough Green. In the end it depends on the rest of your bulbs. On second look at the graph, I agree with Pr0f- too much yellow/orange with the Giesmann. 

I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around how disparate bulbs will commingle when < 4" above the canopy, though. hth


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 8, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I still haven't been able to wrap my mind around how disparate bulbs will commingle when < 4" above the canopy, though. hth


Light travels in ALL directions....
Unless your doing a SOG and the plants are perfectly FLAT... you shouldn't have a problem... the sheer fact you can see all the bulbs 4" from your face means light is reaching your eyes telling you they exist....


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 8, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Hrmmm
> 
> Well, I was thinking that I would have plenty of blue light with the 2 454s and the 2 super actinics (with supplemental blue spillover coming from the 2 fiji purples and 2 ???... where ??? could be the aquaflora, or some other, better bulb for the purpose).
> 
> ...


The more light peaks the bulb produces the less of that light it produces.......
for example you must ADD the total light distribution together to get the total output... if you disperse that light over the entire spectrum you diminish the intensity of the individual peaks....therefore the light would not be as energetic for that spectrum and produce fewer photons....
More of one color is always going to be better than less of all colors...
While thinking you would have enough blue is rather a misnomer.. each bulb is focused on a specific spectra... you have to add the spectras together to get a more complete PAR footprint...
Adding light between 500 and 630nm is wasting photons.... and $$$
you need green "some" yes thats true.. however the ??? bulb is a "supplemental" bulb like a vitamin if you will while red and green are food.... plants will grow with ONLY blue... and grow better with R/B and produce more resin with actinic light... so blue and red are primaries... you want only 10% of your light for supplementation out of that spectra... i explained under Actinics Explained a few posts back...
View attachment 1776819


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## MurshDawg (Sep 8, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> The more light peaks the bulb produces the less of that light it produces.......
> for example you must ADD the total light distribution together to get the total output... if you disperse that light over the entire spectrum you diminish the intensity of the individual peaks....therefore the light would not be as energetic for that spectrum and produce fewer photons....
> More of one color is always going to be better than less of all colors...
> While thinking you would have enough blue is rather a misnomer.. each bulb is focused on a specific spectra... you have to add the spectras together to get a more complete PAR footprint...
> ...


 How did you map all of that plus the sum spectra? I think it would be neat if we could all provide graphs like yours, Pr0fesseur.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 8, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> How did you map all of that plus the sum spectra? I think it would be neat if we could all provide graphs like yours, Pr0fesseur.


These graphs were posted already in this forum* HERE *ive even posted them in my journal.. please check it out! they do not belong to me and were provided by BrainAlive
Brainalive if you read this Thanks again for these great graphs to help the cause!


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## PetFlora (Sep 9, 2011)

This is why a journal would be a good idea. The introduction is editable over time. The various graphs could be laid out there with a brief explanation on the whys and wherefores, eliminating scrolling through 53 pages and counting. hth


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 9, 2011)

Amazing graphs Brainalive! Thank you! And thank you pr0f for the heads up and replies, and for all of your researching efforts, and posts here. I'm sucked in! Can't wait to get my own T5 grow going =D. Looks like that fiji purple is every bit as precious as the red suns for flowering... and the only bulb that really hits the 660 range... I'm certain that I will make at least one of the ??? bulbs another fiji purple. Probably even drop a red sun for a fiji purple so that I would have 3 of each during flower and the ??? bulbs can still be something else...

It would really be awesome for the cause to organize the bulbs/graphs, and if the freaking spectra could be provided better (or even at all with some) from the manufacturers... I know I'm not the only one that is noticing all the differences in scale on these spectrum graphs on both the x-axis and the y-axis, as well as the coloring etc... ***sigh*** Worth sorting through it all though IMO! Brainalive... where are you... lol


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## PetFlora (Sep 9, 2011)

*Psy:* Yes those X/Y axis are not consistent, especially the vertical (x?) plus many are small and do not have a large enough 'enlarge' size, some none at all.


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## smokeymarine (Sep 9, 2011)

This is a bit off topic, but I've been looking for a cooler running alternative to my 400W HPS for flowering. A normal grow is 16 48" T8 lamps for veg then a 400W HPS for flowering. As everyone knows a big problem with the HPS is heat. Once the HPS lamp is on so is the A/C. I thought LED's might be an option, this thread got me thinking. I haven't had any luck searching the internet for T8 lamps that come in the color spectrums mentioned here. In fact what I keep seeing is T8 sized LED lights for aquariums. Any suggestions for T8 lamps? I would really love to just try new lamps rather than getting a whole new fixture for T5's


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 9, 2011)

smokeymarine said:


> I would really love to just try new lamps rather than getting a whole new fixture for T5's


You probably know you can get more lumens and watts into the same amount of space with a T-5 while being more efficient on electrical usage, I'm not sure how long it would take to pay for it self but in the meantime your plants will love you for the upgrade.


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 9, 2011)

Well, I shot off an email to UV Lighting company about their published spectrum graphs, and will let you know the response. The email is below:

_Hello,_
_I am researching the optimum combination of T5 bulbs for my system. It is wonderful that you have spectrum graphs for each of your T5 bulbs. However, I have found that the information provided is VERY confusing. _
_FIrst of all, what is the unit of measurement of the x-axis in the graphs anyways? It is reported as a numerical value, with no unit of measurement... _
_Also, suddenly in the graph for the Red Sun bulb, it is given in percentages???_
_Furthermore, I have found that the x-axis in each of the graphs is scaled differently in magnitude._
_For example, the first five T5 bulbs on the site share the same x-axis measure (numerical), but the magnitude ranges greatly!_
_The 75.25, 454 and Indigo Sun bulbs x-axis range from zero to 5.00E-05 (0.00005)_
_The Actinic White and Aquasun bulbs x-axis range from zero to 1.00E+00 (1)
_
_The Super Actinic x-axis ranges from zero all the way up to 2.5E+00 (2.5) _
_Is this correct? If so, it suggests that none of the light peaks from the 75.25, 454, and Indigo Sun bulbs have even the slightest fraction of the light intensity (or whatever that missing unit of measurement is???) that the other bulbs have in their light peaks._
_And the Red Sun bulb&#8230; well&#8230; I have no idea how to make any direct comparison in magnitude with that graph, given the x-axis is in a completely different measurement altogether (percentages), and the unit of measurement is still missing&#8230;_
_Any assistance that you could provide in this matter would be greatly appreciated!_


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## novice11 (Sep 9, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> I am considering the following bulb setup for a new 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy in a 2' x 4' x 5.5' tent. Bulb budget is $250.00. I just priced it out, and I would be able to purchase the 12 bulbs below (4 blue rotated with 4 red) for $250.00 shipped from Aquarium Specialty.
> 
> I am really interested in hearing what you guys think:
> 
> ...


Here's what I have:

1 FIJI Purple
2 RED SUN
3 Super Actinic
4 FIJI Purple
5 75.25 (VEG) /// RED SUN (BLOOM)
6 454
7 RED SUN
8 FIJI Purple

Note that you only need 9 bulbs, the 75.25 is for veg and swapped out with another RED SUN for BLOOM.


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 9, 2011)

I emailed Korallen Zucht as well, and asked them for spectrum data for each of their T5 bulbs. Will let you know if I hear anything...


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## cannabineer (Sep 9, 2011)

smokeymarine said:


> This is a bit off topic, but I've been looking for a cooler running alternative to my 400W HPS for flowering. A normal grow is 16 48" T8 lamps for veg then a 400W HPS for flowering. As everyone knows a big problem with the HPS is heat. Once the HPS lamp is on so is the A/C. I thought LED's might be an option, this thread got me thinking. I haven't had any luck searching the internet for T8 lamps that come in the color spectrums mentioned here. In fact what I keep seeing is T8 sized LED lights for aquariums. Any suggestions for T8 lamps? I would really love to just try new lamps rather than getting a whole new fixture for T5's


smokeymarine, I looked online for them but no soap. It appears that the good stuff is specific to T5. Wish i could a helped ...
cheers 'neer


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 9, 2011)

smokeymarine said:


> This is a bit off topic, but I've been looking for a cooler running alternative to my 400W HPS for flowering. A normal grow is 16 48" T8 lamps for veg then a 400W HPS for flowering. As everyone knows a big problem with the HPS is heat. Once the HPS lamp is on so is the A/C. I thought LED's might be an option, this thread got me thinking. I haven't had any luck searching the internet for T8 lamps that come in the color spectrums mentioned here. In fact what I keep seeing is T8 sized LED lights for aquariums. Any suggestions for T8 lamps? I would really love to just try new lamps rather than getting a whole new fixture for T5's


Why not just get a retrofit kit and change ballasts etc?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 9, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> You probably know you can get more lumens and watts into the same amount of space with a T-5 while being more efficient on electrical usage, I'm not sure how long it would take to pay for it self but in the meantime your plants will love you for the upgrade.


t5's are 30% more efficient than t8 and last longer... 
Ballasts and fixtures are CHEAP... you can get a decent ballast and fixture
http://www.cpesupply.com/default.aspx?page=item detail&itemcode=IBZT56L
hell even Home Depot sells them!


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## MurshDawg (Sep 9, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> smokeymarine, I looked online for them but no soap. It appears that the good stuff is specific to T5. Wish i could a helped ...
> cheers 'neer


 I know that in the Sunsystems catalog they sell t8 size LED bulbs They have read, blue, and red blue mix. They are called AgroLED


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 9, 2011)

Ive seen t5 style bulbs on alibaba.. however those led batches are what we call "Bins" as in theyre not graded... they would have to be individually tested to determing exact spectra... leds are famous for inconsistancy.. where as a t5 bulb is the same irradiane along the entire tube... not to mention glass instead of plastic in front of the bulb... plastic does diffuse much more light than glass.. thats the reason they dont make plastic mirrors!


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## Izoc666 (Sep 10, 2011)

hey fellas its me again...I would like to hear from your opioion after i dont want to buy LED glow panel 45...so i went to my hydro store...they will sell me T5 (4 ft) for 123.00 with daylight it produce 10,000 lumens...so i thought it will be good start to invest with T5 ? so my question is about acquire the red and blue tubes, im not sure if its meet the standard grow with cannabis ? heres a link that i would like to order

http://www.quantumhort.com/quantum-triphosphor-lamps.html

I ll be highly appreicate , from your advice or tip...and hook me up if you know where the site that offer good deal of tubes  thanks.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 10, 2011)

Izoc666 said:


> hey fellas its me again...I would like to hear from your opioion after i dont want to buy LED glow panel 45...so i went to my hydro store...they will sell me T5 (4 ft) for 123.00 with daylight it produce 10,000 lumens...so i thought it will be good start to invest with T5 ? so my question is about acquire the red and blue tubes, im not sure if its meet the standard grow with cannabis ? heres a link that i would like to order
> 
> http://www.quantumhort.com/quantum-triphosphor-lamps.html
> 
> ...


Start here.. and look for the bulbs listed in this forum theres plenty in the last few pages...
Your local aquarium stores may have some of these bulbs as they are pretty popular. 
http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/54w-48in-ati-blue-plus-t5-ho-fluorescent-bulb.html
http://www.marinedepot.com/ATI_Blue_Plus_T5HO_Fluorescent_Bulbs_T5_High_Output_Fluorescent_Light_Bulbs_for_Aquariums-ATI-UZ1109-FILTBUT5HO-vi.html


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## smokeymarine (Sep 10, 2011)

I ended up finding a few T8 lamps from Zoo Med, but they all seem to be on the blue end of the spectrum.

I guess I'll just try retrofiting. My lights are already just some home made modular panels that let me keep adding lamps in groups of four. Time to shop for some ballasts and hardware.


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## Izoc666 (Sep 10, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Start here.. and look for the bulbs listed in this forum theres plenty in the last few pages...
> Your local aquarium stores may have some of these bulbs as they are pretty popular.
> http://www.bulkreefsupply.com/store/54w-48in-ati-blue-plus-t5-ho-fluorescent-bulb.html
> http://www.marinedepot.com/ATI_Blue_Plus_T5HO_Fluorescent_Bulbs_T5_High_Output_Fluorescent_Light_Bulbs_for_Aquariums-ATI-UZ1109-FILTBUT5HO-vi.html


thanks a lot... i got full of pictures now...have a good day, sir

+rep for ya


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 14, 2011)

Well I have exchanged several emails now with Thomas Pohl @ Korallen Zucht about spectrums and nm peaks. His replies:

"we don't have that, sorry. I have only exact parameters in nm but that i can not give for advertising"
and
"sorry but that are our combanys secrets"
and
"nobody gives you exactly nm levels, you get from everybody only self made grafics but we do not have that. I hope you understand that."

so, a big strikeout on trying to get something definitive from the manufacturer on that one... really makes me wonder where these Fiji Purple spectrum graphs on the Internet have come from...


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 14, 2011)

Oh I also got a reply from Jeff Saghy @ UV Lighting:

"Sorry for the late response, we've been shorthanded and extremely busy. So not to make the graphs more confusing then they are is to simply show where the light peaks are. The lamps are all measured differently on the x-axis chart and should not be used to show light intensity. The red Sun lamp is peaking at 633nm which is very specific in the red spectral peak."


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 14, 2011)

What I have come up with now:

12 BULBS TOTAL
2X UVL Super Actinic (420)
2X UVL 454 (460)
2X Giesemann Actinic Plus (420-460)
2X Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple (440 and 660)
2X UVL Red Sun (633)
2X Aquatic Life Roseate (650)



VEGETATIVE
1 Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple (440 and 660)
2 UVL 454 (460)
3 Giesemann Actinic Plus (420-460)
4 UVL Super Actinic (420)
5 Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple (440 and 660)
6 UVL 454 (460)
7 Giesemann Actinic Plus (420-460)
8 UVL Super Actinic (420)

FLOWERING
1 Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple (440 and 660)
2 Aquatic Life Roseate (650)
3 Giesemann Actinic Plus (420-460)
4 UVL Red Sun (633)
5 Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple (440 and 660)
6 Aquatic Life Roseate (650)
7 Giesemann Actinic Plus (420-460)
8 UVL Red Sun (633)

Thoughts???


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 14, 2011)

Not too keen on the roseate bulbs... :-/
a large waste in yellow and orange...


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 14, 2011)

The giesemann actinic plus has a waste of light in green...






UVL super actinic


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 15, 2011)

The Giesemann Actinic + (420 + 460) is an entirely different bulb than the UVL Super Actinic (420). Giesemann also has a pure (420) bulb called the Pure Actinic... That would be the one to compare to the UVL Super Actinic... Neither of these have much 460...

The reason I like the Giesemann Actinic +, is exactly because it has both 420 and 460 emissions. I was going for a bulb with both 420 and 460 that could be more ideal for staying in the fixture during both vegetative (where they would be combined with pure 420 and 460 bulbs, and the Fiji Purples) and during flowering (replace the pure 420/460 bulbs for the 633/650 bulbs, and the Giesemanns and the Fiji Purples stay...).

I suppose I could save money and achieve approximately the same result by not purchasing any Giesemann Actinic +, and just keep 1 420 bulb and 1 460 bulb in the fixture during flowering... yeah... only have to buy 10 bulbs total then... /shrug

I agree with you on the Roseate... I don't like the spectrum a whole lot either, but it is difficult to find that upper red... I sure wish you could still get the 48" ATI Pro Colors! ***sigh*** (of course I have not seen a spectrum for those...)

Anyways, just wanted to point that out. Thanks for your thoughts Pr0f!


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 15, 2011)

ATI Pro Color stuff that I have found:

http://www.bostonreefers.org/forums/showthread.php?84562-54w-(48-inch)-ATI-T5-Pro-Color-Bulb

http://www.monstermarketplace.com/light-bulbs/ati-pro-color-t5-ho-80w-60-aquarium-bulb

Color Temperature: 650 - 720 nm



ATI Pro Color T5 HO Aquarium Bulb Full spectrum bulb characterized by its deep red color section in the 650 - 720 nm range. Deep red spectrum is excellent for bringing out the vibrant reds in an aquarium and enhances the non-fluorescent pigments in corals bringing out the true color of an aquarium. This new "Pro color" is characterized especially by its deep red color sections (max by 660nm wavelength) , which are responsible for the lush, red color. Thereby, "Pro color" represents an optimum addition to many of the other light tubes on the market for the illumination of aquariums.


The ATI Pro Color graph is basically identical to the Aquatic Life Roseate:


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 15, 2011)

Come to think of it, each of the above is basically identical to the Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple... with the major exception that the Fiji Purple graph is rendered with a taller red peak, and a shorter green peak... heh...

It is a shame about the email replies that I got from Thomas Pohl @ Korallen Zucht... would be nice to confirm.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 15, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Come to think of it, each of the above is basically identical to the Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple... with the major exception that the Fiji Purple graph is rendered with a taller red peak, and a shorter green peak... heh...
> 
> It is a shame about the email replies that I got from Thomas Pohl @ Korallen Zucht... would be nice to confirm.


View attachment 1788073
Not even close... fuji are 660nm and have tons more blue... if i could find a cheaper better bulb i would use it! the procolors are not even on my list any more.. theyre obsolete s far as im concerned.. i have found a replacement!!!





the 454 is the bulb for 450-46nm
also the 75.25 is the bulb i use for "green" supplementation.. because its mostly actinic with a sprinkle lol of green and a dash of yellow ... :-/ but its the only bulb that has this very hard to find combo without any other extra color.


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 15, 2011)

Zoo Med Flora Sun

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4479



again... basically the same spectrum as the Roseate and Pro Color (discontinued)


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 15, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Zoo Med Flora Sun
> 
> http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4479
> 
> ...


Looks like a big spike in the green. What say you pr0fesseur?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 15, 2011)

Could be a good bulb... however their charts seem to be suspect... if they are as represented they would be a good addition.. however i stiil have found a better far red bulb


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 15, 2011)

i think im going to mix one or two of these with my fiji purps in flowering(maybe remove an actinic and replace with these?!!).. i love the even DEEPER red! from what i have researched deep infra red will be very beneficial to flowering...


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 15, 2011)

http://www.fosterandsmithaquatics.com/1/1/1357-wavepoint-coral-wave-ho-t5-lamp.html


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 15, 2011)

There is no doubt that the graph of the Fiji Purple that is posted throughout this thread is the best looking spectrum. The problem is, *nobody knows where that graph came from...* Even the author of the original article that this mysterious spectrum graph comes from stated* in the same article*, _*"Do you know how nearly impossible it was to find this spectral graph? I actually can't even remember how I came across it, but this is the graph for KZ's Fiji Purple."*_ How do I know this is the post where pr0f found the graph? Do some searching yourself, and you will see! And look at the file name! _*"giesemann fiji purple.jpg"*_ LOL

Anyways, talk about suspect... ^^^

And again, I pursued this issue further in several email communications with Thomas Pohl at Korallen Zucht over the course of 2 days, and posted his replies right here in this thread a page or two back... The company does not release any spectrum graphs or any specific nm peaks... Sucks!

Not that I won't be testing out Fiji Purples, or that I am trying to diss on them... I like them! They have a great reputation, and are clearly designed to be red/blue bulbs. I am just trying to shed further light on the subject... Perhaps it is not really necessary to pay a premium for a bulb that has no specs released by the manufacturer. You keep talking about suspect graphs pr0f, yet swearing by the one graph that is clearly the most suspect of any of them! Don't get me wrong! I actually agree with you that some of these graphs do indeed raise considerable suspicion... ***sigh*** My 2c... Can't wait to start experimenting myself! I think I have looked at T5 bulb specs and graphs and obsessed over it enough to get going...


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 15, 2011)

1. No where did i mention that theres a premium for the kz fiji purps.. just that they are specialized like the super actinic all actinic and nothing else... those are expensive too... 
http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/index.html <-------- Hes a published Author.... thats where i got the picture.
The geissman bulbs are the same price.
http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting/t5-lamps/deltec-giesemann/giesemann-pure-actinic-t5-ho-lamps
Fiji purple have been posted before that one it was the picture that i saved...also how many times do you ever get any assistance fron anyone over email?support... 
heres another posting...
http://reefgizmo.com/2011/01/kz-fiji-purple-vs-ati-purple-plus/
And Another
http://www.utahreefs.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=40599&OB=ASC
Another
http://reefbuilders.com/2011/01/27/sylvania-t5-kz-fiji-ati-purple/
Another
http://blog.captive-aquatics.com/captive_aquatics/2010/11/t5s-spectrums-choosing-whats-right-for-you.html

Im just going off what i can find... at least all posts of this chart are the SAME...but when the posting of the same bulb are DIFFERENT i have an issue and when the spd chart has inaccurate measurements.. thats suspect...


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 16, 2011)

Never said YOU mentioned a premium for the KZ Fiji Purple... I mentioned it! hehe =D I have found that they are near $30 a bulb everywhere you look, unless you can get lucky and find a sale. That is approximately 2-3X as much as other "red" producing bulbs like Zoo Med Flora Sun and Wave Point Red Wave (now called Color Wave) which can be had around $10 a bulb, and the Current/True Lumen Freshwater Flora and Aquatic Life Roseate which can be had around $15 a bulb... Hey, maybe they are worth it! Maybe they are not... But why compare the price of a Giesemann pure actinic? 1. Entirely different bulb spectrum. 2. You can find plenty of pure actinics for $10 - $15, so I wouldn't buy the Giesemann one either! Almost every brand out there sells pure actinics at 420 and 460 for much cheaper than Giesemann! Have a look! Although I do agree with you that it is nice that the UVL actinic bulbs have internal reflectors, solid reputation, and still hover around $20, so these are probably worth it when purchasing pure actinics!

Yep, he's a published author, and his pic is titled "giesemann fiji purple.jpg" and he states that he has no idea where he got the graph...

http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html

It is clear that other sources of this graph have simply ripped it off this same article... Read these articles, and look at the file name! In all the examples (except for the reefgizmo one), it is still called "giesemann fiji purple.jpg" I guess one guy had the sense to notice and change it! LOL But this same guy also actually tells you upfront in his article that his data is coming from http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html... And the last example is just a blog wherein the orignial practicalcoralfarming article was simply copied/pasted in its entirety! All of this hardly makes the argument "at least they are the SAME" hold any water... The graph is not very specific, either. The whole thing looks like it is mathematically averaged between very few data points... Look at how soft and curvy it is... there are no specific peaks jutting out... What kind of light emitters do that?

As far as email support goes... I have exchanged emails with Current, Wave Point, Aquatic Life, UVL and Korallen Zucht all in the last week, and every single one of them except for Korallen Zucht has been helpful, and provided me with specific nm peaks and spectrum graphs. So that is how many times I was able to get assistance from someone over email support...

Anyways, I'm interested in reading more about the benefits of 700-800nm during flowering that you mention... Can you help me out with any links to get going? Cheers!


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 16, 2011)

*Current/TureLumen Freshwater Flora:

Current USA - Support, Sep-13 11:25 (PDT):* Dear Mr.,
We do not have a spectrum graph for this lamp, only the specific peaks in nm spectrums.
Sincerely,
Current-USA, Inc.

*
Current USA - Support, Sep-12 13:53 (PDT):* Dear Hobbyist,
Thank you for contacting Current-USA, Inc.
The freshwater flora T5HO lamps peaks at 405nm, 550nm and 640nm.
If you should have any further questions, please feel free to contact us again.
Sincerely,
Current-USA, Inc. Technical Support


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 16, 2011)

Is there a reason you guys are going with the Badboys over fixtures such as the Hydrofarm? Are they driving the lights that much more?


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## novice11 (Sep 16, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> i think im going to mix one or two of these with my fiji purps in flowering(maybe remove an actinic and replace with these?!!).. i love the even DEEPER red! from what i have researched deep infra red will be very beneficial to flowering...


I like the idea, but why would you replace the pure blue actinic bulb with the blue/red combo Coral Wave? Wouldn't the more logical bulb to be swapped be the FIJI PURPLE, also a blue/red combo bulb? Just wondering...


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 16, 2011)

not to speak for pr0f, but he is talking about using this bulb during flowering only... You wouldn't want to remove any Fuji Purples during flowering! He can take a pure actinic 420 out (I think he uses UVL Super Actinic) *during flowering* and replace it with this bulb. This would still give him the actinic 420 (to a lesser intensity... which is fine... this is during flowering...) and add the desired far red in the 700-800...


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## ohiogrown03 (Sep 16, 2011)

Well i purchased a hydrofarm T5 4' 8 bulb fixture today, i have a few 6-9 inch plants i've been keeping outdoor in pots from mid summer to now turning fall weather here. it'll be a week or two until i get the new bulbs that you suggested. I have waterfarm buckets too, is it worth trying to transplant these plants into a hydro bucket or just leave them in soil and start from clones with the buckets when i get them. I know its not ideal but i'm sure these bulbs will at least kick the plant back into veg since it's starting to try to flower because of the weather/day changes here.


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## [email protected] (Sep 16, 2011)

OK guys, I seriously don't mean to be lazy here but I just got some KILLER outdoor bud sugar coated in trics so I'm pretty baked right now, Ive been reading through pages and pages of this thread and I can't seem to find what I'm looking for so can the OP or someone please help me here??? I just want to know how well the T5 setup in the OP with the different color bulbs has been working out?? Have you completed a grow with them and if so what are the results IE: Node spacing, Yield, Trichome density, Potency etc? And how would you compare it to LED and HID? Thank you.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 16, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> OK guys, I seriously don't mean to be lazy here but I just got some KILLER outdoor bud sugar coated in trics so I'm pretty baked right now, Ive been reading through pages and pages of this thread and I can't seem to find what I'm looking for so can the OP or someone please help me here??? I just want to know how well the T5 setup in the OP with the different color bulbs has been working out?? Have you completed a grow with them and if so what are the results IE: Node spacing, Yield, Trichome density, Potency etc? And how would you compare it to LED and HID? Thank you.


This as not a comparison grow, nor is it a better than grow.. it was a scientific plausibility grow "does this work".
I yielded a small amount and that according to the scientific method I was expecting 0 yield... 
This method is all about method not yields .. this was only to measure the efficacy of the bulb.. and efficiency. It works and from the pics I have rec'd many a 
Question about my grow.. if you want to do a side by side I will help however I can.. I was just trying to prove the method nothing else.. yield is irrelevant.. I know I can veg and bloom with a single method and that speaks volumes... I urge you the reader to experiment with the method and provide more results. I will be doing another grow here shortly with 3 strains maybe 9 plants to show viability in my method. Remember that the scientific method demands I fail. If I have any other result that's icing on the cake. 

Ya im not locked into the bulbs I use but from the documentation im trying to stay with a specific curve that gives the best bang for $ 
Yes fiji purps are suspect but the light they emit is obviously a great base to build on. 
I accept these as my base and build from there.. 
Yes nlite purpose bulbs have the same spectrum.. but no one supplies them.. maybe oz bought.them..? Let's just go with what we can find...


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 17, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Is there a reason you guys are going with the Badboys over fixtures such as the Hydrofarm? Are they driving the lights that much more?


Bad boys are great quality and light!


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 17, 2011)

novice11 said:


> I like the idea, but why would you replace the pure blue actinic bulb with the blue/red combo Coral Wave? Wouldn't the more logical bulb to be swapped be the FIJI PURPLE, also a blue/red combo bulb? Just wondering...


Good question... if i replace the sctinic plus with this bulb i get actinic like the actinic & i get the far infra red... this provides 700nm and the fiji add 630nm more spectrum...
remember its not about the color its about the NM range i can get from each bulb in order to complete the PAR were after.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 17, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> not to speak for pr0f, but he is talking about using this bulb during flowering only... You wouldn't want to remove any Fuji Purples during flowering! He can take a pure actinic 420 out (I think he uses UVL Super Actinic) *during flowering* and replace it with this bulb. This would still give him the actinic 420 (to a lesser intensity... which is fine... this is during flowering...) and add the desired far red in the 700-800...


 THanks +rep


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 17, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> Well i purchased a hydrofarm T5 4' 8 bulb fixture today, i have a few 6-9 inch plants i've been keeping outdoor in pots from mid summer to now turning fall weather here. it'll be a week or two until i get the new bulbs that you suggested. I have waterfarm buckets too, is it worth trying to transplant these plants into a hydro bucket or just leave them in soil and start from clones with the buckets when i get them. I know its not ideal but i'm sure these bulbs will at least kick the plant back into veg since it's starting to try to flower because of the weather/day changes here.


Dont stress your plants place them under a flowering regimen.. if you hold them back you may hermie them... you can take some clones NOW and reveg them.... NP they will just take longer to veg out... maybe 3 weeks or so you can take cuttings from them too... and so on..
DO NOT GO FROM SOIL TO HYDRO!!!!! you will shock your plants.. not worth it.. leave them in soil top dress(add soil to the top) if you have to.. give the roots plenty of room...to grow into the new soil they will bush out as the new roots take hold..


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 17, 2011)

Has someone made a list yet of the bulbs and places to buy them in one post yet? That would be awesome while compiling a shopping list for veg and flower.


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## Grimbsy (Sep 17, 2011)

4 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE / FIJI ................................................BLOOM/FLOWER=SAME

6 BULB - VEG = FIJI / BLUE1 / 75.25 / FIJI / RED / BLUE2 .....................BLOOM/FLOWER = Replace 75.25 with RED

8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI .....BLOOM/FLOWER = Replace 75.25 with RED

BLUE1 = UVL Super ACTINIC @ 420nm
BLUE2 = UVL 454nm
RED = UVL RED SUN 630nm
FIJI = KorallenZucht FIJI PURPLE 630nm & 440nm
75.25 = UVL 75.25 (VEG ONLY)

I think for 16 bulb you just double the 8 bulb, and they're available at a www.aquariumspecialty.com.


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## novice11 (Sep 17, 2011)

Grimbsy said:


> 4 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE / FIJI ................................................BLOOM/FLOWER=SAME
> 
> 6 BULB - VEG = FIJI / BLUE1 / 75.25 / FIJI / RED / BLUE2 .....................BLOOM/FLOWER = Replace 75.25 with RED
> 
> ...


Please note that in addition to what I originally posted - the pr0fesseur has added a new bulb, the WAVE POINT CORAL WAVE bulb. This bulb is to be swapped in during flowering/bloom in place of BLUE1 (UVL Super Actinic). This bulb keeps the 420nm actinic and adds the very far red spectrum. He talks about this just a few posts back.

This bulb is also available @ aquarium specialty.


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## Grimbsy (Sep 17, 2011)

I also wondered about the ATI Pro color, where would that be in the setups?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 18, 2011)

Anyone else have any photos from their grows using this for Flowering?


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## novice11 (Sep 18, 2011)

Grimbsy said:


> I also wondered about the ATI Pro color, where would that be in the setups?


You cannot get the Pro Color in 48" and the pr0fesseur has just substituted the Wave Point CORAL WAVE. 

You really ought to read the thread to get an idea of how this has evolved, no offense intended.


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## Dubnificent (Sep 18, 2011)

To: Proffesor
I've been a fan of your idea for a few years even before I found your thread (you really dialed it in on the bulb outputs from prospective companies). Unfortunately with the small grow space I have available 2'x4'x5' with two centrifugal fans one clip on fan and an inline duct fan through a hepa filter and a carbon filter in a Mylar lined tent in a closet. For lighting I have an 8bulb fixture hanging vertically and two 4bulb fixtures hanging vertically on the right and left of the tent. I also use a homemade hybridized DWC system. My temps during warmer months have no problems elevating into the mid 90's or higher. It's got be really considering scrapping my big 8light fixture for some led's of some sort probably blackstar's hopefully some GLH spectra's. I grow 4 plants at a time and was wondering with the light spectrum tailoring do you think the 8bulb joint could carry 4 Indica's (lollipop-ed and heavily manicured) through their flowering phase? It's rated at 18,000 lumens even though I'm not sure how that converts to PAR. The reason being that i'm able to maintain a temp in the high 80's when i run just 8 bulbs instead of all 16. Also room temp outside of the closet is maintained at 72 degrees. Intakes & exhaust run outside of the tent. I've had heat ruin two crops making the buds so thin and wispy. I even pulled 76 grams off of one plant but it was only good for butter or extractions (best butter I ever had, though not something for the vaporizer). It's been a constant learning curve dealing with temps from reservoir and ambient room. I even learned to beat and reverse root rot because of it. Now I ask your opinion because I don't want to learn this through trial and error. Your input is greatly appreciated  Note just finished reading another 500 page thread and just returning to this thread only on page 32 gotta read through & see what I missed. So could you or anyone else pm me a link as to where I can purchase all of your specified bulbs in/at one place. Thanks in advance!


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 18, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Anyone else have any photos from their grows using this for Flowering?


I posted my pics a few pages back check in the 40's or check my album or my Advanced T5 growers community thread ALL my pics are there..


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 18, 2011)

novice11 said:


> You cannot get the Pro Color in 48" and the pr0fesseur has just substituted the Wave Point CORAL WAVE.
> 
> You really ought to read the thread to get an idea of how this has evolved, no offense intended.


As soon as i get my new setup i will be purchasing the coral wave just cant buy 1 bulb at a time.. it WILL get broken.. and $$$ to expensive..
Aquarium Specialty.com
reefgeeks.com i think thats how its spelled... any aquarium wholesaler has SOME of these bulbs..


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 18, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I posted my pics a few pages back check in the 40's or check my album or my Advanced T5 growers community thread ALL my pics are there..


yea I saw yours I was trying to see if anyone else has had such good results.


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## MurshDawg (Sep 19, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> As soon as i get my new setup i will be purchasing the coral wave just cant buy 1 bulb at a time.. it WILL get broken.. and $$$ to expensive..
> Aquarium Specialty.com
> reefgeeks.com i think thats how its spelled... any aquarium wholesaler has SOME of these bulbs..


Aquarium Specialties are still waiting on their Red Suns just to keep people informed.


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## DCgrow505 (Sep 19, 2011)

man i like the whole idea of this and the funny thing is that i also have a salt water tank and have thought of doing the same thing but man you should take pics and keep us all up dated how fast are you vegging that way and how are you end results


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## novice11 (Sep 19, 2011)

Aquarium Specialty told me that the distributor has about 400 back orders for Red Suns "all of a sudden". Hmmm....wonder why that might be, LOL. Anyway, they are expecting to get them in this week (week of 9/19) so we may be seeing them sooner rather than later. I already added the Wave Point Coral Wave to my order, so that should come with the Red Suns.


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## AltarNation (Sep 19, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Aquarium Specialty told me that the distributor has about 400 back orders for Red Suns "all of a sudden". Hmmm....wonder why that might be, LOL. Anyway, they are expecting to get them in this week (week of 9/19) so we may be seeing them sooner rather than later. I already added the Wave Point Coral Wave to my order, so that should come with the Red Suns.


lolol. I did the exact same thing.


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## cannabineer (Sep 19, 2011)

oh too funny. I received my fixture from Aq Spclty but no bulbs. It looks like i'm part of the problem ... I'm laughing!
cheers 'neer


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 19, 2011)

DCgrow505 said:


> man i like the whole idea of this and the funny thing is that i also have a salt water tank and have thought of doing the same thing but man you should take pics and keep us all up dated how fast are you vegging that way and how are you end results


I vegged for a month and a week got a 2' plant outa that.. then bloomed got to about 3.5'.. it grows fast(er) than traditional T5.
others that have used my bulbs has noticed plants "leaning towards" the actinics..


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 19, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> oh too funny. I received my fixture from Aq Spclty but no bulbs. It looks like i'm part of the problem ... I'm laughing!
> cheers 'neer


There are plenty of places to get these bulbs gents  look around reef geek has em marine depot...bulk reef supply...aqua cave!!... theres tons of sources.. most of them have a majority of the bulbs your looking for!

Congrats on everyone who is going this route shows that there are people out there that believe in "reason" and "logic" rather than some guy telling you hid is the only way to go...

On a side note guess who found compact fluorescent? in reef bulb!!!! shhh looking for a place that will send me a sample....


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 20, 2011)

If using a 12 bulb Bad Boy how many Actinics would I use and would I leave them in during flower as well?

Pr0fesseur- could you put a list of how things should be in a 12 bulb?


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## AltarNation (Sep 20, 2011)

Very interested in CFL additions, since my bad boy knockoff has a gap down the middle where the ballasts are... thinking I could hang a few CFLs from the middle point and get some center-hung side-lighting in!!


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## novice11 (Sep 20, 2011)

Just got an email from Aquarium Specialties stating that their order should be in tomorrow.


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## silasraven (Sep 20, 2011)

Wudaheo said:


> If you want similar design to the quantum badboys you can get the 6 bulb htg slimstar for $210 w/bulbs shipped but has 1yr warrantly. The sun blaze doesn't have individual reflectors but has 5yr warranty and they really quick on replacements. Not sure about the quantum warranty since they seem like a new company?


heres my thing about hat what does it cost to run per day i saw an LED online yesterday it said 2 cents a day to run for full 10-14 hour grow days. but theres also another i found where you can get 
*LED grow light, panel, bulbs, 225 LED, 14W, plant growth 
*

for 30 dollars and some change.. people say lights blow out easy on something like this. but i still think you could solder your own lights when they burn out. still iffy on the LED for 30 they arnt cheap and this seems as a rip off. but hey im in need of light with a 300 dollar budget and a fixed income 600 so i cant afford giant electric bills. im shooten the shit any adivce and corrections? much appreciated


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 20, 2011)

silasraven said:


> heres my thing about hat what does it cost to run per day i saw an LED online yesterday it said 2 cents a day to run for full 10-14 hour grow days. but theres also another i found where you can get *LED grow light, panel, bulbs, 225 LED, 14W, plant growth *for 30 dollars and some change..


The only way to grow for 2 cents a day is outdoors!
A 14 watt 225 LED fixture is so under powered you'll end up throwing it away. With LED's you need at least a 1 watt bulb for decent plant canopy penetration, if you had 225 1 watt bulbs that would make a decent fixture but your gonna pay hundreds and hundreds of dollars for one of those.


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## silasraven (Sep 20, 2011)

i need something very cost effienct for a light. i found and HPS for 125. but it will jack my bill right up. only thing i no is CFL's but im not even sure about if they can even be run for a decent not to steep digit to my bill. i dont have a job so this makes the variables hard to come up with for a good solution.


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## novice11 (Sep 20, 2011)

It's pretty simple math. For a 65 watt (actual) CFL, that is 65 watts an hour. Power is charged by the kilowatt/hour, 1000 watts/hour, and it depends what you are charged for that KWH. Say it is 15 cents. if you had 7 65 watt (actual) CFLs, then 7*65=455 watts. Let's round up to 500 to make the numbers work easy. So for 500 watts you would pay 7.5 cents per hour. 12 hours a day = 90 cents a day. 30 days = $27 a month.


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## silasraven (Sep 20, 2011)

ah ha thank you. that is exactly what i needed, ill copy this and see how to work it up or down for the future. but for 65W CFL's thats right around where i need to be. winters coming soon. thanks so much


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 20, 2011)

Wouldnt a 12 bulb Badboy and a 600wt HPS light use about the same amount of electricity? The only advantage to the T5 would be the lower heat. RIGHT?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 20, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> If using a 12 bulb Bad Boy how many Actinics would I use and would I leave them in during flower as well?
> 
> Pr0fesseur- could you put a list of how things should be in a 12 bulb?


12 bulbs you would probably want 3x4 bulb combinations or 4x3 bulb combinations...

something like this
for veg
fiji
actinic plus
454 or 75.25
F
A
4
F
A
4
F
A
4

or 

F
A+
75
454
*repeat


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 20, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Wouldnt a 12 bulb Badboy and a 600wt HPS light use about the same amount of electricity? The only advantage to the T5 would be the lower heat. RIGHT?


YES same amount of electricity
YES Lower heat
NO not the only advantage.
MORE PAR=MORE USABLE LIGHT the plant receives more light that it can use to drive growth. its like octane in fuel sure a gallon is a gallon.. BUT 89 octane and kerosene have very different burn patterns! 89 octane will run a car just fine but kerosene is what you NEED for aircraft....... get it?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 20, 2011)

silasraven said:


> ah ha thank you. that is exactly what i needed, ill copy this and see how to work it up or down for the future. but for 65W CFL's thats right around where i need to be. winters coming soon. thanks so much


T5 gives you the best coverage and heres why.. the light from a single point disperses so that a plant 2' from the light recieves 1/4 of the light that a plant 1' from lthe light does.... thus the inverse square law. now the law still applies to T5 BUT ALL the light comes from MORE Surface AREA! thus is more efficient.


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## smokeymarine (Sep 20, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Wouldnt a 12 bulb Badboy and a 600wt HPS light use about the same amount of electricity? The only advantage to the T5 would be the lower heat. RIGHT?


The math on the T5's add up to about 650W so yes on the power. As far as heat I'm not so sure its that much different. I know 500W of T8's gets thr room temp whole lot hotter than a 400W HPS. It looks to me that the big advantage of the T5's is the ability to mix and match light spectrum.


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## smokeymarine (Sep 20, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> T5 gives you the best coverage and heres why.. the light from a single point disperses so that a plant 2' from the light recieves 1/4 of the light that a plant 1' from lthe light does.... thus the inverse square law. now the law still applies to T5 BUT ALL the light comes from MORE Surface AREA! thus is more efficient.


How is it true that all the light is comming from more surface area? A 4 foot T5 is something like 5k lumens, so 12 is 60k, but that is spread over about 8 sq ft. If a plant is centered under the lights, 3" from the light then the light it is getting from the far end of the tube (which is more than 24" away) 1/32 as intense as the light directly overhead. I don't see how that plant could be getting as much light from the 12 tube 650W T5 light fixture (~60k lumens) as it would get from a 600W HPS light (~90k lumens). Does that make sense or is my brain not functioning properly?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 20, 2011)

The sun gives off about 10,000 lumens per sqft the ho T5 bulbs will give you 5000 lumens per sqft that can be put right next to the plant provising maximum usage of the lumens. A 600 watt will provide 7500 lumens per sqft at 12". Most people don't grow that close and surround the light also the fixture is 4' so if the HID light was in the middle the foliage 2' away would be getting much less lumens than the T5 will provide. 
It's late.... my 2 cents anyway.
~ucdwc

P.S. Also Plants do most of there photosynthesis in the red and blue spectrum, Hid lights put off about 10% of there lumens in the P.A.R range. A T5 fixture with these bulbs = 100% P.A.R with 90% efficiency.


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## silasraven (Sep 20, 2011)

yeah but the CFL's have to be full spectrum right?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 20, 2011)

silasraven said:


> yeah but the CFL's have to be full spectrum right?


These are not cfl's, we are talking about T5 fluorescent tubes (Although the professeur is looking to bring specific Nm cfl's into this thread later) . The combination of the bulbs gives you a very wide lighting spectrum tailored specifically for plant growth.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 21, 2011)

Kinda.

If this is the case why in the world do large grow ops with main concern of yield NOT run things like t5's for flowering? 

I'm trying to get my head around it and REALLY like the idea of growing with the T5's permanently.

How many plants realistically could you flower under a 12 bulb Badboy?




pr0fesseur said:


> YES same amount of electricity
> YES Lower heat
> NO not the only advantage.
> MORE PAR=MORE USABLE LIGHT the plant receives more light that it can use to drive growth. its like octane in fuel sure a gallon is a gallon.. BUT 89 octane and kerosene have very different burn patterns! 89 octane will run a car just fine but kerosene is what you NEED for aircraft....... get it?


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 21, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 12 bulbs you would probably want 3x4 bulb combinations or 4x3 bulb combinations...
> 
> something like this
> for veg
> ...


What about Flower?


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

MelloKitty sent me the Spectral Graph of the Quantum bulbs. The Grow is pretty decent, though only 6500K. It might be a suitable replacement for the Fijis. If someone can tell me how to post it- it is a Word document. I just checked their site, they still haven't posted them!


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 21, 2011)

Can you save the image in the Word document as a .jpg or whatever and then upload it?


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Can you save the image in the Word document as a .jpg or whatever and then upload it?


I saved it in my library, when I open the library I see the doc, but when I try to load it from" my computer" it doesn't show up. Very frustrating. Maybe because it appears in my library as a word doc, not an image, though when I click on it there, it opens.

I looked at Save Options but do not see jpeg, gif, etc


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## ohiogrown03 (Sep 21, 2011)

i tried looking through here, but i didnt see anything about the ATI purple. My local aquarium supply store wont have fiji purple for 3-4 weeks, but they have ati purple plus. I see there is almost no red, in the 660 range, but more in the 625-35 range it looks likr from this graph http://reefgizmo.com/2011/01/kz-fiji-purple-vs-ati-purple-plus/ 

I'm probably just going to tell them to ship the ati for now and order the fiji's form somewhere else.


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 21, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I saved it in my library, when I open the library I see the doc, but when I try to load it from" my computer" it doesn't show up. Very frustrating. Maybe because it appears in my library as a word doc, not an image, though when I click on it there, it opens.
> 
> I looked at Save Options but do not see jpeg, gif, etc


Try opening the Word document, selecting the image, right click the image and "copy" and then open up Microsoft Paint (Start/Programs/Accessories) and "paste"... Then in Paint you can "save as" a .jpg...


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Can you save the image in the Word document as a .jpg or whatever and then upload it?


*Unfortunetely, no.*


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## PetFlora (Sep 21, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Try opening the Word document, selecting the image, right click the image and "copy" and then open up Microsoft Paint (Start/Programs/Accessories) and "paste"... Then in Paint you can "save as" a .jpg...


*No can do*. I will PM someone if you think you can convert it though.


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## novice11 (Sep 21, 2011)

Just got shipping info from Aquarium Specialty, so they now have the Red Suns in. 

Can't wait to see how the Coral Wave does, pr0fesseur!


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## novice11 (Sep 21, 2011)

Just a note about PAR values to the fellow non-scientists...PAR value essentially shows how much of the light spectrum plants need is given by the light source. So for 2 bulbs, both 54 watts, one might put all of its spectrum @ 454, so the PAR value for that bulb would be 100%. Another 54 watt bulb might have all of its spectrum at 550, its PAR value would be close to 0. This is just a ridiculous example, but the PAR value is the measurement of choice. 

The various bulbs the pr0fesseur has listed have very high PAR values, thus they are the most efficient at giving the plants the light that they want to "see".


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 21, 2011)

Wow. I hadn't ever heard of "nlite" before pr0f mentioned them a few posts back. Look at what we find on their website:

http://www.nlites.co.uk/growgood/eco-light.htm

and when you click the Bio Tropic 25000K light spectrum:

http://www.nlites.co.uk/growgood/assets/site-graphics/light/1.PURple.jpg

Look familiar?!?!?!? LOL


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## ohiogrown03 (Sep 21, 2011)

well, my ATI purple plus should be here tomorrow, it says that it replaced the ATI procolor. 
I also looked for the biotropic 25k but out of stock at the only place i could find, which i was the link above. I also ordered fiji purples from another site because i'm going to pick up a 2nd waterfarm 8lamp fixture tomorrow.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 22, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Wow. I hadn't ever heard of "nlite" before pr0f mentioned them a few posts back. Look at what we find on their website:
> 
> http://www.nlites.co.uk/growgood/eco-light.htm
> 
> ...


What are we seeing here? Is there a place in the US to get these all in 1 spot?


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 22, 2011)

What we are seeing here is the actual source of the mysterious, amazing, and completely unavailable KZ Fiji Purple spectrum (OMGZ!) that has been the topic of much discussion in this thread, and many, many others all over the Internet... Why do I say unavailable? Because, as it turns out, this is NOT the KZ Fiji Purple spectrum at all! It is the nlite PURple (or Bio Tropic 25K) spectrum, and these bulbs are not available...

Here is another link where they talk about this spectrum on the nlite site: http://www.nlites.co.uk/photoponics.htm

The actual KZ Fiji Purple spectrum is a closely guarded company secret, and has not been released to the public. This is what I have been told repeatedly in emails from Thomas Pohl @ Korallen Zucht.


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 22, 2011)

On the other hand, we as consumers are free to study the spectrum of similar, competing, and less expensive T5 HO bulbs produced by other companies, and make educated purchasing decisions:

AquaticLife Roseate http://aquaticlife.com/
Aqua Medic Plant Grow http://www.aqua-medic.com/
ATI Purple Plus http://www.atiaquaristik.com/en/
Coralife Colormax http://coralifeproducts.com/
Current/TrueLumen Freshwater Flora http://www.current-usa.com/
Giesemann Aquaflora http://www.giesemann.de/
JBL Solar Ultra Color http://www.jbl.de/en/
Wave Point Color Wave(same as Red Wave) http://www.wave-point.com/
ZooMed Flora Sun http://www.zoomed.com/

I would paste the spectrum graphs here for you, but some of them are embedded in Flash, and are not 'saveable'

The above all have a similar spectrum (some look better than others...for sure). God (and Thomas Pohl) only knows if they are similar to the KZ Fiji Purple's spectrum... but I suspect that they are... Having said that, Korallen Zucht is without a doubt highly reputed among all these, and the Fiji Purple bulb in particular is held in high regard among enthusiasts (thus the price tag). It is also, after all, the bulb that pr0f has actually flowered cannabis with! So again, I'm not dissing on that bulb so much as I am ticked off that we cannot get a spectrum to study so that we are able to make an educated purchasing decision, without going through all the work (time and money!) of comparing other bulbs to the Fiji Purple ourselves via direct experimentation...

Of course you still want to pick up your UVL Red Suns and use them! They are unique in their spectrum, and you definitely want some of it!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 22, 2011)

Has anyone found a place where you can buy them all in one spot?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 22, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> What we are seeing here is the actual source of the mysterious, amazing, and completely unavailable KZ Fiji Purple spectrum (OMGZ!) that has been the topic of much discussion in this thread, and many, many others all over the Internet... Why do I say unavailable? Because, as it turns out, this is NOT the KZ Fiji Purple spectrum at all! It is the nlite PURple (or Bio Tropic 25K) spectrum, and these bulbs are not available...
> 
> Here is another link where they talk about this spectrum on the nlite site: http://www.nlites.co.uk/photoponics.htm
> 
> The actual KZ Fiji Purple spectrum is a closely guarded company secret, and has not been released to the public. This is what I have been told repeatedly in emails from Thomas Pohl @ Korallen Zucht.


Also those are 24 watt bulbs from Nlites. Aren't the ones Professuer uses 54 watt?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 22, 2011)

What do you guys think of this in flowering?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 22, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> MelloKitty sent me the Spectral Graph of the Quantum bulbs. The Grow is pretty decent, though only 6500K. It might be a suitable replacement for the Fijis. If someone can tell me how to post it- it is a Word document. I just checked their site, they still haven't posted them!


um thats personal info there buddy!!!


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 22, 2011)

any thoughts?  i may buy one of these bulbs... looks like we have a winner!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 23, 2011)

professeur- look at the one i posted. let me know what you think. Which bulb is the one you posted?


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## novice11 (Sep 23, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Also those are 24 watt bulbs from Nlites. Aren't the ones Professuer uses 54 watt?


They are 24". They would be 54 watts in a 48".


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## novice11 (Sep 23, 2011)

The Red Suns and my other bulbs came, one of the Red Suns is faulty. The Coral Wave looks nice though. Hope the plants like it too!


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## novice11 (Sep 23, 2011)

Aquarium Specialty is sending me the LAST Red Sun they have out of the 25 that were just received. This is a great response from them. My, my, those Red Suns sure are popular.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 23, 2011)

novice11 said:


> The Red Suns and my other bulbs came, one of the Red Suns is faulty. The Coral Wave looks nice though. Hope the plants like it too!


Light them things up and send a pic!


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 23, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> On the other hand, we as consumers are free to study the spectrum of similar, competing, and less expensive T5 HO bulbs produced by other companies, and make educated purchasing decisions:
> 
> AquaticLife Roseate http://aquaticlife.com/
> Aqua Medic Plant Grow http://www.aqua-medic.com/
> ...


For the comment in red!
Use the Snipping tool in Win 7 and just highlight save done!
Can you post to MY community group the graphs that youve listed.. and zip up the ones you download maybe send them via rapidshare etc? I am making a shareable document for All bulbs and graphs! with the help of Brainalive!
I really do want to make a community effort here and am willing to share and learn from all members here. And with your help, grow some decent Meds!
Agreed we will no longer use that graph of KZ Fiji's


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 23, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What do you guys think of this in flowering?


 Im still on the fence about that much 550NM in that bulb.. a red sun will give you all that red and no yellow... a good 75.25 would be a better choice IMHO


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 23, 2011)

@ Lucius Vorenus
That looks like a typical 2700K or 3000K "grow" bulb spectrum... These will work, but certainly not as well as other bulbs discussed here. There is too much waste in green/orange/yellow, and not enough red in the 630nm through far-red to compete... The whole point of this thread is to get away from these typical "grow" bulbs and put together a spectrum with more PAR/PUR for our little babies!

@pr0fesseur
Excellent! I'll gladly help =D


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> any thoughts?  i may buy one of these bulbs... looks like we have a winner!


Interesting spectrum! Certainly one of the more complete/full spectrums I have seen in any bulb... I am a little oncerned about how much is wasted in 500-600 range, but very interesting! OK OK where did you get that? lol I'm assuming it is actually available in 54W 48" T5 HO?  It appears that you could use nothing but those through veg AND flower and get good results!


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 23, 2011)

I have to do more research on the bulb and the manufacturer but this could be the best of both worlds...
Seems a company is making these bulbs for aquariums and now are using them for grow bulbs
Someone else is getting in on this bandwagon... it may marry the world of HID and T5.. 
we shall see..


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 23, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Interesting spectrum! Certainly one of the more complete/full spectrums I have seen in any bulb... I am a little oncerned about how much is wasted in 500-600 range, but very interesting! OK OK where did you get that? lol I'm assuming it is actually available in 54W 48" T5 HO?  It appears that you could use nothing but those through veg AND flower and get good results!


 im thinking about 15-20% but it could be the best success in the field.. besides plasma.. which is going to be my next experimental grow after the T5 dial in..


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 23, 2011)

Wow, I just got off the phone with a company that will rent a spectroradiometer with cosine corrector (pre-calibrated, with included software to install on PC) for a week for $250.00!!!

Would love to buy a bunch of the most interesting bulbs and test them myself! Not to mention test and optimize for a final 8-bulb vegetative/flowering configuration... Totally worth the $250.00... includes shipping!

http://www.shop.spectrecology.com/Rental-VIS-spectroradiometer-with-cosine-corrector-R2.htm The guy mentioned that their equipment was used in an article in September 2011 issue of Popular Science... I'll have to check that out.

Also worth checking out these guys http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/ They sell reasonably priced meters and sensors!


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## novice11 (Sep 24, 2011)

Well, if you could solve the Fiji spectrum issue alone all of us would be grateful.


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## novice11 (Sep 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Light them things up and send a pic!


Will do as soon as my replacement Red Sun arrives, should be mid-week. I can say that the plants seem to be raising their arms towards the Coral Wave, already seem to like the actinic light.


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## LightLady (Sep 24, 2011)

here are some photos of 3rd week flower with 864 watts of T5 only using specialty lamps in the mix.


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## LightLady (Sep 24, 2011)

sorry for the duplicate photos


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## novice11 (Sep 24, 2011)

Had to share this. Photo on left is 3 days old. Photo on right is today. Before lights were 3 Fiji, 1 Red Sun and 4 Quantom red spectrum. Yesterday I added 1 more Red Sun, 1 UVL 454 and 1 Coral Wave. (Still have 1 Quantom in there as the 3rd Red Sun was DOA and a replacement is due next week).
Look how the plants have raised there arms toward the Coral Wave. Unbelievable.


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## LightLady (Sep 24, 2011)

Nice plants. [Soil is more forgiving, yes?]
I went for the whole NEW [potentially suicidal] experience of T5+AERO, so our metrics may vary a bit.
How far into flower were the plants in the 3day old photo please?
I really want to try 'Artificial Sun' Sulphur Plasma 1300 AAA.


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## PetFlora (Sep 24, 2011)

Off topic, BUT, I think that Air Pots would be kick-ass with this lighting. I went to 3 nurseries, NONE carried them. WTF????!~!!!!


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## PetFlora (Sep 24, 2011)

*Novice: I see this when I use DM Liquid Light +Saturator ($$$) which suggests to me your light choice is duplicating DM supplements. *


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## LightLady (Sep 24, 2011)

nice plants. soil is more forgiving, yes?
i went the route of potential suicide w/ T5+AERO for my experiment, as i understand the metrics to be a bit different.
how long were the plants in 3 day old photo into flower please?


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 24, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Off topic, BUT, I think that Air Pots would be kick-ass with this lighting. I went to 3 nurseries, NONE carried them. WTF????!~!!!!


I grow with airpots.. check my photos,,,


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 24, 2011)

LightLady said:


> View attachment 1804158View attachment 1804161View attachment 1804166View attachment 1804170View attachment 1804175View attachment 1804158View attachment 1804161View attachment 1804166View attachment 1804170View attachment 1804175here are some photos of 3rd week flower with 864 watts of T5 only using specialty lamps in the mix.


if you would have had some actinic in the mix your plants would not be so spindly.. great grow though! now add some red suns quick!


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 24, 2011)

soil can be more forgiving as my soil is just add water ... supersoil...!


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 24, 2011)

novice11 said:


> View attachment 1804339View attachment 1804340
> 
> Had to share this. Photo on left is 3 days old. Photo on right is today. Before lights were 3 Fiji, 1 Red Sun and 4 Quantom red spectrum. Yesterday I added 1 more Red Sun, 1 UVL 454 and 1 Coral Wave. (Still have 1 Quantom in there as the 3rd Red Sun was DOA and a replacement is due next week).
> Look how the plants have raised there arms toward the Coral Wave. Unbelievable.


The plants really do respond well to actinics... i cant stress enough the importance of having them in your grow... red suns are great, but haing more actinic light really gets them going!


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## LightLady (Sep 25, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> if you would have had some actinic in the mix your plants would not be so spindly.. great grow though! now add some red suns quick!


 red suns are 633nm & roseates are 650nm [i already have 4- roseates- 2 top/2side] with 2- 6500k & 10- 3000k bloom lamps. --total of 16 54watt lamps. should i still add more red suns?
i have actinic 420 & 460 in the veg & the fan leaves were huge. should i replace the 2- 6500k or 2- of the bloom lamps with the actinic blues in the latter setup?


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## novice11 (Sep 25, 2011)

LightLady said:


> nice plants. soil is more forgiving, yes?
> i went the route of potential suicide w/ T5+AERO for my experiment, as i understand the metrics to be a bit different.
> how long were the plants in 3 day old photo into flower please?


They are 6 weeks in soil as of today so they were 5 1/2 weeks when the photo on the left was taken. Photo on right taken 2 days later not 3 as I originally said. Photo on right was during the 1st full day of the added bulbs. They were added midday the day before the photo was taken. So - to be clear - day1 left photo taken, day2 new lights added midday, day3 right photo taken.


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## MurshDawg (Sep 25, 2011)

Has anyone used the *Coralife* brand actinic bulbs? I figure that those are readily available at most commercial pet stores and aquarium stores across the US. I just want to know if they are worth a try. The PAR graph look good, it peaks at 420nm with >80% intensity. Any thoughts?


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## LightLady (Sep 25, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Has anyone used the *Coralife* brand actinic bulbs? I figure that those are readily available at most commercial pet stores and aquarium stores across the US. I just want to know if they are worth a try. The PAR graph look good, it peaks at 420nm with >80% intensity. Any thoughts?


 i have used them & they do a decent job..... look at these options too:
http://www.wave-point.com/images/LampMain2_enlarge.jpg


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 25, 2011)

Yes we have discussed these bulbs..
I have recommended the coral waves the reef waves are similar to the actinic plus.. 
There are better bulbs especially those with internal reflectors..like UVL Internal reflectors.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 25, 2011)

I am not discounting other bulbs im sure they work just fine. (within the paramaters discussed in this forum)
Please feel free to buy the bulbs and experiment. But if i can get a similar bulb WITH an internal reflector.. thats always a bonus... more light directly to the plant remember reverse square law demands 50% of your light travels 1.5x the distance to the bulb... light must reflect then travel back through the glass and off the reflector thus diminishing the amount of light rec'd
In this Internal manner we can assume that 99.99% of light is emitted in the SAME direction thus gaining in efficiency..
Im just trying to achieve the best benefit/cost ratio


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## novice11 (Sep 26, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Light them things up and send a pic!




As promised, from left to right, (1) Fiji (2) Red Sun (3) 454 (4) Red Sun (5) Fiji (6) Coral Wave (7) Red Sun (eight) Fiji. (If I put in the number eight I get the emoticon with the sunglasses).

This is for Flower/Bloom in a 12/12 grow. When I go back to Veg, #4 Red Sun will be replaced with a 75.25 and #6 Coral Wave will be replaced by a Super Actinic. 

For 12/12 the Veg bulbs will stay until all the girls show their pistils, about 4-6 weeks, then I switch back to the Flower/Bloom bulbs.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 26, 2011)

Any of you guys moved to T5 from HPS? If so what percentage of growth would you say you get compared to the HPS and how is the heat situation in comparison?


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## PetFlora (Sep 26, 2011)

novice11 said:


> View attachment 1807055
> 
> As promised, from left to right, (1) Fiji (2) Red Sun (3) 454 (4) Red Sun (5) Fiji (6) Coral Wave (7) Red Sun (eight) Fiji. (If I put in the number eight I get the emoticon with the sunglasses).
> 
> ...


I am reading a 12/12 from seed thread. Clearly it works, but wouldn't 10-14 days of veg first significantly improve yield? Also I am looking into getting some Air Pots. If doing a 12/12 or variant with APs, geez I would imagine getting 8-10 plants under an 8 bulb.


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## LightLady (Sep 26, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Yes we have discussed these bulbs..
> I have recommended the coral waves the reef waves are similar to the actinic plus..
> There are better bulbs especially those with internal reflectors..like UVL Internal reflectors.


i agree that more directional lamps are superior if the spectrum & optimal ambient operating temps are in concord.
what are your thoughts on the Sun Wave & Tropical Wave lamps please?

i know from reading your posts that you are not a fan of LEDs currently being marketed as 'Grow Lights', but i have found that clones & mother plants seem to like the specialty 7.5watt 96.80 CRI Pucks [200lumens per] that we developed for 35watt Halogen replacements in the luxury retail market. [light distribution is 100 degree]

LM-79 test report with test results FYI:
http://s77163.gridserver.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Puck-8F-001g-S3.pdf 
your thoughts about why the clones & mothers might be liking these?


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 26, 2011)

Has anybody checked these guys out? Pretty cool stuff!

http://www.flowmagic.com/

One product that caught my eye in particular is their 4 foot/8 tube T5 HO (54W each)/T8 LED (22W each) combo fixture. I found online pricing as low as $170.00 for the fixture, and the T8 LED tubes are as low as $66.00 each... *Could* be awesome IF the LED tubes are any good...

Each T8 Red tube has 288 LEDs, 660nm only
Each T8 Blue/White tube has 288 LEDs, 144 420nm/144 5500K

What gets me hung up is the 288 LEDs running at only 22W??? Seems crazy to me, as that computes out to merely 0.0764W/LED... Meanwhile other LED grow lights are running at 3W/LED...

Thoughts? Anyone have any experience with AgroLED T8 tubes?


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## PetFlora (Sep 26, 2011)

I have studied LEDs for a couple years. DIY guys pretty much agree you need 3 watt diodes to get adequate penetration/lumens


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## Psytranceorgy (Sep 26, 2011)

Yeah, 288 LEDs running at 22W sounds utterly useless, right?!?!? meh...


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## novice11 (Sep 27, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I am reading a 12/12 from seed thread. Clearly it works, but wouldn't 10-14 days of veg first significantly improve yield? Also I am looking into getting some Air Pots. If doing a 12/12 or variant with APs, geez I would imagine getting 8-10 plants under an 8 bulb.


I already had a grow going, and I only have the one area to work with, so I really had no choice, the 12/12 from seed was the only way I could get another grow going.

Funny thing is the first 3-4 weeks was all veg anyway. So the only advantage of going pure veg the first couple weeks would be plant size. I have read about fimming, topping and bending the plants over to control size. The 12/12 from seed seems to solve that from the get go. And seeing what del66666 has done with 12/12 from seed in terms of yield kind of pushed me into it as well. So I'll see what kind of yield I get from 12/12 and go from there.

Also - and I've written this before - around the Equatorial region of the globe, all days are 12/12, and they seem to get some nice yield there.


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## MurshDawg (Sep 27, 2011)

Here's a pic of my new bulbs, gang! Thanks a lot Pr0fesseur for letting me know I am not totally insane (just a little crazy). From right to left: 3000k, 454, red sun, 6500k. I am planning on getting a couple of Super violets to replace the 6500k lamps. Thanks again guys!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 28, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Here's a pic of my new bulbs, gang! Thanks a lot Pr0fesseur for letting me know I am not totally insane (just a little crazy). From right to left: 3000k, 454, red sun, 6500k. I am planning on getting a couple of Super violets to replace the 6500k lamps. Thanks again guys!


Looks great. I look forward to seeing what you can turn out with it. I'm going to be adding on a small grow using that setup out here in AZ soon as well.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 28, 2011)

I wanted to post up some pics of my new light in action. 
For now I'm going with a 5 bulb mix: Fiji, 454, Redsun, Actanic +, 75.25..... then repeat.... ending up with a fiji purp on the ends of my 16 lamp fixture. I thought more blue than red would be better for veg, in some places it's a 3:1 ratio B:R and in others it's 1:1 ratio B:R. I also have some yellow/green/orange thrown in there to add spectrum every fifth light with the 75.25.
I can say having it for only 24 hours the new growth on my plants are loving the light!.... but more than likely it's because I tripled the wattage it's now under 
I'll pop back in regularly on Sundays and post pics of the progress for a veg grow or two.

Thanks again for all the good ideas involving T5 lighting Professeur! 
P.S. I'll be looking out for your plasma lighting thread when you start it.






For reference lights from Left to Right, ...........................Fiji....454....................RedSun....Actanic+.........................75.25....Fiji.........454....Redsun...........Actanic+


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## Lucius Vorenus (Sep 30, 2011)

^looks great


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## MurshDawg (Sep 30, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> I wanted to post up some pics of my new light in action.
> For now I'm going with a 5 bulb mix: Fiji, 454, Redsun, Actanic +, 75.25..... then repeat.... ending up with a fiji purp on the ends of my 16 lamp fixture. I thought more blue than red would be better for veg, in some places it's a 3:1 ratio B:R and in others it's 1:1 ratio B:R. I also have some yellow/green/orange thrown in there to add spectrum every fifth light with the 75.25.
> I can say having it for only 24 hours the new growth on my plants are loving the light!.... but more than likely it's because I tripled the wattage it's now under
> I'll pop back in regularly on Sundays and post pics of the progress for a veg grow or two.
> ...


Looking fantastic, bro! got a little burn on your bottom leaves?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Sep 30, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Looking fantastic, bro! got a little burn on your bottom leaves?


I accidentally used a contaminated sprayer bottle(weed killer) a week ago when foliar feeding and It left burnt patches on some of the plants. The white on some of the leaves is diatomaceous earth.

After putting up the new light I've noticed my leaves have developed DEEP ridges (they kind of look like Ruffles potato chips), the stalks and veins are becoming a fluorescent purple, sharpening/more defined serrated edges and over all healthier looking plant.


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## pr0fesseur (Sep 30, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> I accidentally used a contaminated sprayer bottle(weed killer) a week ago when foliar feeding and It left burnt patches on some of the plants. The white on some of the leaves is diatomaceous earth.
> 
> After putting up the new light I've noticed my leaves have developed DEEP ridges (they kind of look like Riffles potato chips), the stalks and veins are becoming a fluorescent purple, sharpening/more defined serrated edges and over all healthier looking plant.


My leaves did the same thing... literally like mountain ridges... the stems were super healthy and very stiff i never had one broken branch..unless i was lst/fimming 

The plants may start leaning into the actinics so rotate your plants if possible...

So lets get a review 
what have you learned/noticed 
how are the temps?
how close on average are your lights
has your water consumption gone up?
Diatomaceous earth is acidic so be careful! not like burning acidic just i can change your ph....
Are you planning on training your plants?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 1, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> My leaves did the same thing... literally like mountain ridges... the stems were super healthy and very stiff i never had one broken branch..unless i was lst/fimming
> 
> The plants may start leaning into the actinics so rotate your plants if possible...


So lets get a review 
what have you learned/noticed 
 I've noticed the leaves pray to the light with intensity now, leaves have turned dark green and developed DEEP ridges, the stalks and veins are becoming a fluorescent purple, sharpening/more defined serrated edges, The smell of the plant is much stronger and a overall healthier looking plant. I've also noticed burnt leaves when they touch the light bulbs and a few spots of bleaching of the leaf (it's really only a few spots where I noticed this and I think It's just the plant getting use to the light and I don't think I will continue).
how are the temps?
 Higher.... but not unmanageable, I'm running 3 times the watts as before the light switch. I'd say the room runs 4-5 degrees warmer I've had to turn my exhaust fan to 24/0 instead of 15 min/hour and I've had to turn on my 16" oscillating fan. 
how close on average are your lights 
 2-4" above the canopy
has your water consumption gone up? 
Oh yeah! twice as much or more... the 12 plants burn through about 2 gallons a day now.
Diatomaceous earth is acidic so be careful! not like burning acidic just i can change your ph.... 
I haven't had a problem with it yet, I know it has run off into the rez from foliar feeding.... I'm using Supernatural Nutes, it has a Ph buffer that could be why I haven't seen a change. 
Are you planning on training your plants? 
Yes!... I have been training the older ones by tying them down to open them up for SCROG, I've also been thinking about letting half the plants just grow regularly supported by tomato cadges and compare yields. I'm going to make 2 of the 12 mother plants so I can keep it a perpetual garden, then I'll take the best 8 of the remaining 10 plants and put them in the flower room in the Under Current system. 

Here's a pic of the growth in under 48 hours on one of the small plants.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 1, 2011)

Great response... ya youll have to let your plants get used to the lights. they are intense to plants... 2" is kinda close but if your plants can handle the temps leave em be... i would lift them up just a touch... leaves are gonna burn when they touch these lamps.. but not right away and if you have a good fan blowing you should see the plants really bush out with tons of early tricomes and a wonderful smell...something ive noticed only with my lights... the plants seem to recover from shock much faster as well
great setup i cant wait for more updates...


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## theharborgreenthumb (Oct 1, 2011)

I just scimmed through your thread and would like it if you could show me the results of your last grow the final results. Nice thread btw and I am subbed. If you feel like checking mine out here you can check out my youtube page. 
[video=youtube;vPMhPvsMsTU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPMhPvsMsTU[/video]


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## PetFlora (Oct 1, 2011)

I mixed 2 *AquaSuns* with 2 *Quantum Grows* (pretty decent actually) but only 6500K for vegging seedlings in my HPA rig. I had several near death set backs, so I started more seeds. In order to make room for the new seedlings I moved 3 plants to a F & D and one to a soil mix in a 6" net pot which I placed inside a slightly larger pot. All still under my T 5, sort of an A v B v C test. 

The 3 F & D plants have taken off big time. The one in soil has the largest leafs, but the leafs were floppy, the plant was too squat (not growing much). Yesterday, my Air Pot order came in and I repotted it. I had to break off a hand full of roots that were already outside the net pot, but after several hours it was no worse for wear. This morning I am blown away by how much this plant has grown, plus the leaves are full and reaching toward the lights. 

Moral of the story, if you are using these bulbs, but not seeing amazing results, it could be your grow method needs some tweaking. I haven't given up on HPA. I have 4 new seedlings in it that are all doing well, but I have plenty of APs ready just in case. hth


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 1, 2011)

Great to hear your having great results would like to see them once you have everything dialed in...
Yes the airpots are a great choice you will love them... remember to SOAK them in the airpots...you cant over water them!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 1, 2011)

theharborgreenthumb said:


> I just scimmed through your thread and would like it if you could show me the results of your last grow the final results. Nice thread btw and I am subbed. If you feel like checking mine out here you can check out my youtube page.


Love the Clones wish i could pick some up! If you threw at least one actinic bulb in that mix you will see some amazing results.. a fiji purple would give you the best of both worlds, enhanced growth and better stress recovery!
the results of my grow are in this thread all my pics of them being chopped are here as well... 
You should spend the time to read through the thread there is some really good science in here. 
I have answered almost every possible question and with the help from others i have made a complete breakdown of this method.
This is not however a thread of comparison or how much you can grow... this is dedicated to the sheer efficacy of the method..
My grow was NOT intended to work. in fact i hoped it would fail as thats how the scientific method works. 
2 plants i have never grown, organic nutes, SUPERSOIL and water! i netted 90grams off 2 plants dried. this was only meant to show that the method works and will grow plants...
This was never about yield or quality, you cannot quantify two separate measurements with one single experiment... its all about the quality of the light and the PAR that you are giving the plant.
With a higher PAR you need less light to provide the same results to the plant. Using distinct bands of light i can get my par values close to 100% most HPS and MH are in the 30-60% range... 
Using the reverse Square law 90% PAR at 2" my plants receive close to 100% of the photons emitted by the lamps... Using HPS/MH at 1' away plants receive MAXIMUM 50% of the light you provide.. and thats math fact! 
Also using Actinic light the Photonic energy produced by the t5 1x54w bulb provides more photonic energy in the 400nm range than ANY HID lamp on the market...
Actinic light is so energetic that it carries a charge! this charge plants can use to facilitate photosynthesis..


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## Tyler123 (Oct 2, 2011)

Ok. So I have been reading through all of this and I just don't see the point. Is this to prove that these bulbs will just work or work better than say 6500K bulbs and 3000K. If your setup does not increase quality and create larger yields why spend all the extra cash on specialty bulbs? So do you feel your setup is better (creating larger yields and big tight sticky buds) than what most T5 growers are using?


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## PetFlora (Oct 2, 2011)

*Tyler. *What are you missing? The bulbs we are using have 2-3+Xs *(edit- all in the PAR range*) the lumen output of standard horticulture T 5s. That's like going from 150w CMH to a 300-450w. Any doubt which one of those will produce more? *Additionally*, because individual bulbs are available in much more PAR specific ranges than standard horticulture T5s, we can dial in the amount of PAR we want during grow and bloom by mixing them together. Pretty cool really. 

In my current 6 bulb mix, I had one Quantum Bloom bulb mixed in with 3 Quantum Grows (which have a nice PAR balance including a small 420 peak). To these I added the following aquarium bulbs: 2 UVL AquaSuns during grow. Yesterday, I flipped to 12/12: today I replaced the one Quantum Bloom with a UVL Red Life (formerly Red Sun). The difference in color _from just replacing that one bulb_ on the plants is amazing, leaving no doubt here as to why. I also have UVL Super Actinics and Coral Waves on order. hth


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## Tyler123 (Oct 2, 2011)

Yes I understand what you are trying to accomplish but what really matters is quality and quantity of bud. From reading through this post, and the first set of pictures of results, I am a little disappointed. I was hoping all this "science" was going to blow the socks off of what everybody else is doing. I agree it is kind of cool but if my results are as good with my T5 setup using 6500K for vegging and 3000K for flowering why would I bother. (I also use CFL for side lighting)? Now are you saying that your results are substantially better using this method of dialing in PAR? And if you say yes in what ways have you seen a difference between this and your previous grows?


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## PetFlora (Oct 2, 2011)

I am unable to provide before and afters as I have not had a completed grow with my BB _(edit- and 100% Quantum bulbs_). I had 4 nice plants going then an unexpected 90+ heat wave hit for a week. It took me several days to adjust my HPA system; the pod temps were in the ^80s, and so damaged my roots that by the time the plants recovered, they all flipped to males, so I pulled it. Also, they were short AFs. Nothing to compare to my new seeds.

I came across Pr0fs thread before starting this grow (~ 8 weeks ago). Since I have 8 each Quantum G/B bulbs, I bought a couple of bulbs to test the waters during grow and flower. I bought 2 AquaSuns and 2 Red Suns. I added the 2 AquaSuns during veg, to be replaced with Red Suns during bloom. 

During this grow I had other issues with my HPA (it is very tweaky), so last week I moved 4 of the plants from HPA to different methods (F& D + Air Pot). Those plants have really taken off, and so far blowing the doors off my recovering HPA plant, but it too is coming along now that I have the system better dialed in. hth


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 2, 2011)

Update: Day 4 under new light.
Observations:
I think I need to buy a carbon filter just for my veg room now =P... These things stink!
The plants now eat and drink like Hogs!
Definitive plant growth overnight.
Super strong well defined new plant growth standing straight up to the light.

Day1





Day4





Day 3: Super dark green healthy new leaves with fluorescent purple stems.


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## PetFlora (Oct 2, 2011)

Same 'problems' here 

I will take/post some pics tomorrow.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 2, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> Yes I understand what you are trying to accomplish but what really matters is quality and quantity of bud. From reading through this post, and the first set of pictures of results, I am a little disappointed. I was hoping all this "science" was going to blow the socks off of what everybody else is doing. I agree it is kind of cool but if my results are as good with my T5 setup using 6500K for vegging and 3000K for flowering why would I bother. (I also use CFL for side lighting)? Now are you saying that your results are substantially better using this method of dialing in PAR? And if you say yes in what ways have you seen a difference between this and your previous grows?


Well you obviously are new to this forum and i will give you the penny tour..

My grow was CONTROLLED
SUPERSOIL AND WATER..+LIGHT+Organic nutes... thats it.. no additives no bloom enhancers.. im not measuring nute comparative analysis so nutes DONT MATTER
My grow was NEVER about yield, i dont know how many time i have to explain this... there was 0 expectation of growth.. 
The scientific method demands i fail the first round.. and i didnt...not only did i not fail but with 0 effort i got my results... my grow was with 3 original seeds all different strains and genetics. one failed to sprout.. i was left with 2 plants. the strains DONT MATTER im not measuring what strains grow and how
you MUST read the* entire thread *to understand what im doing..
And im sorry you *WILL NOT* have the same reults using your 6500k and 3000k bulbs period. i have proved this point. time and time again. others on this forum will attest to the physical changes these lights provide to the plants OVERNIGHT! you cannot simply dismiss something because the results _YOU WANT_ are not there... thats no way to make an educated observation.
if you have indeed taken the time to read this thread there are 2 grows here... just look at my pics verses others online both in plant health and rate of growth are substantially increased...
EVEN ON THE FIRST PAGE I outline my previous growth experience.
You cant measure 2 things at once in an experiment... you must find 1 thing to test. I chose to test the LIGHTING
You cannot measure speed and distance at the same time the laws of physics prevent you from doing so.
If this WAS about yield i would have stated this from day one i would have a dialed in grow with a strain i have previously grown and with something i KNOW the average yield on... and grown with the best nutes i an find and used 2x the lighting..... but its not...and i didnt....
Its obvious you have never done any real lab work or you would truly understand my position. Just your "science" comment proves your ignorance to what you learned in school, and to the fact that plants of different strain yield differently..

FOR EXAMPLE
Nevilles haze 12 weeks to flower about 25-30 gm dried even for a great grower... why you ask BECAUSE ITS THE MOST POTENT SHIT ON EARTH! thats why..
Big Bud average flowering 8 weeks yield 100+gm dried per plant but its garbage.... comparatively speaking...
so you tell me which plant has a higher yield, and which one would you rather smoke? EXACTLY!!!
people who grow for quantity or yield IMHO are sheer profit whores.. and care nothing for the industry or the medicine, or even what they give to others.
my 30gm sell for 5x what yours does because the QUALITY is better.. brokers favor quality EVERY TIME!

Here is a pick from Don Gin and Ton hes a masterfull grower here and an icon in the 600W grow club





Heres my leaves and canopy.... with LESS LUMENS!!!


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## MurshDawg (Oct 3, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Well you obviously are new to this forum and i will give you the penny tour..
> 
> My grow was CONTROLLED
> SUPERSOIL AND WATER..+LIGHT+Organic nutes... thats it.. no additives no bloom enhancers.. im not measuring nute comparative analysis so nutes DONT MATTER
> ...


So Sayeth thy Pr0fesseur. I have grown two grows this year using 6500k/3000k mixed. This run I have had the pleasure to try this method and It does work. I have noticed new growth on a daily. How long do you have to veg with your t5s to get decent size plants, Tyler (at least 3 ft)?


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## MurshDawg (Oct 3, 2011)

PS I got two Coralife actinics. There not much to right home about but It does give a good spread of blue that peaks at 420nm. If you have an actinict burn out and you don't want to wait you can get these Coralife bulbs at the national pet stores


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## PetFlora (Oct 3, 2011)

Photos as promised: 

I am glad I moved some of the plants (ONE week ago!) from HPA to soil (now AP) and F & D, which is by far the easiest hydro method. If not for that I really wouldn't have a good idea what the impact of the aquarium bulbs are. Those plants have all doubled in height, as well as filling in with node branching. Instead of just using a pvc goose-neck to fill the F & D chamber, I decided to add some tubing lengths and drill holes along it. When the pump comes on it's like a mini- Bellagio water show, which further aerates the nutes just before hitting the lava rocks.


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## MurshDawg (Oct 3, 2011)

here's a little update. These bulbs are freaking amazing! Surely those with sound logic and reason have already came to this conclusion  [video=youtube;_0e9uaQukus]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0e9uaQukus[/video]


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## Tyler123 (Oct 3, 2011)

Looks like they veg great but that is all that is proven


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 3, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> here's a little update. These bulbs are freaking amazing! Surely those with sound logic and reason have already came to this conclusion  [video=youtube;_0e9uaQukus]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_0e9uaQukus[/video]


Glad to see that my logic is not wated MurshD you get my seal of approval!! I journaled your post! 

"One fact well understood by observation, and well guided development, is worth a thousand times more than a thousand words" - The American Journal of Education, 1858.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 3, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> Looks like they veg great but that is all that is proven


You are obviously too stoned to see straight did you not see the buds from my last plants? do i have to repost pictures larger for you? take your 21 posts to a forum where your comment may seem intelligent... There are plenty of other people who are here to... whats that word oh ya "_*LEARN*_" somethning. and be objective...

1.	existing independently of perception or an individual's conceptions: are there objective moral values?
2.	undistorted by emotion or personal bias
3.	of or relating to actual and external phenomena as opposed to thoughts, feelings, etc.


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## MurshDawg (Oct 3, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> Looks like they veg great but that is all that is proven


Well please feel free to stay tuned because I update my journal weekly and I look forward to showing how sound logic and objective science can lead one to better conclusions that tend to violate the common sense of the hoi polli.


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## Josh1r (Oct 4, 2011)

I just found this site advertising a new "State of the art" lighting system! Hah check it out im pretty impressed.. http://www.cyberbiota.com/index.html ps. This isn't me advertising the guy lol, just thought it was cool.


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## fssalaska (Oct 4, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 1101487View attachment 1101488View attachment 1101489View attachment 1101490View attachment 1101491
> So when i decided to grow i started with a 400W hps and MH conversion bulb. I put up my tent and it was problem after problem. With the generous help from the people here i decided to throw away my setup and start from scratch. I purchased the Quantum Badboy 8 lamp T5. I started with the standard 6500k bulbs with some success. I wanted to buy an LED light but didnt have the money. So... i was at my buddies house and he has a LARGE aquarium and he showed me his bulbs..it clicked.. corals need light too and his lights produced the EXACT spectrum corals need to live and are capable of penetrating 3'+ of water. well corals and plants are very similar as they use the EXACT same light spectrum. Digging deeper i found bulbs that produce 410-460nm and 620-660 nm light.. That is also Exactly what LEDs put out..now putting one plus one together i decided to do a small test.. i bought 2 2' t5 lights ATI AND UVL Blue plus and Super Actinic. Explosive growth followed. i couldent believe my eyes. I was told on 4 different forums that actinic bulbs DO NOT WORK FOR plants boy were they really wrong!. i ahve since gone 100% T5 with various bulbs producing only yhe light spectrum that plants need. As you can see my plants are doing AMAZING for being grown with Actinic bulbs.2 of my bulbs are missing as they were broken upon arrrival. I will be changing out some of the blue bulbs with the deep red ones i found for flowering..they produce ONLY 630-660nm light. no other spectrum so i get 100% PAR. top that with MH...now i know what your thinking these lights are not bright at all... well its not about lumens.the human eye response isView attachment 1101463photosynthetic is View attachment 1101468, so your eyes do not see ALL the light these bulbs output. hardcore believers will flame me but let the math and the facts be known.HPS BULBS View attachment 1101469 Anyone notice a pattern here???? Lumens are not the ending factor to bud growth or you could not grow with LED. my sample grow i netted 1oz on a plant with only 116w. If your still in disbelief consider this, chect the spectrum charts for your coveted 3000k bulbs and overlay it with your chlorophyll response charts.. youll notice MOST of the light these bulbs prodice is outside the chloraphyll A+B peaks... now place the spectrums of my lights and overlay them...100% match.. seems to me im doing something right?


Anyone putting down LEDs I'm with you! never used T5s but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. lol but really I bought 2 UFOs sunshine 90 watts and a 150 watt that said it was a 240 watt blackstar and really think the results were crap.. I love my MH & HPS but may give T5s a try one day..


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## PetFlora (Oct 4, 2011)

Josh1r said:


> I just found this site advertising a new "State of the art" lighting system! Hah check it out im pretty impressed.. http://www.cyberbiota.com/index.html ps. This isn't me advertising the guy lol, just thought it was cool.


Good lookin' out. Possibilities. My biggest problem with LEDs (owning one) is that they have so far been static, meaning I cannot control the PAR. You definitely want more Blue in veg than you do in bloom and vise versa with Red. My second biggest problem is price vs coverage. They all lie about that. To get the coverage an 8 bulb HO T5 delivers you need 2 LEDs which so far more than doubles the cost of a T 5 including aquarium bulbs. These conclusions, from ownership and study, convinced me to move away from them. What I did take away from the experience is a better knowledge of PAR and wondered how I could incorporate it into my BB, and then like mana from heaven, along came Pr0fs thread.


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## novice11 (Oct 4, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> any thoughts?  i may buy one of these bulbs... looks like we have a winner!


So what exactly is this bulb? Or are we still in "teaser" mode?


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## Tyler123 (Oct 4, 2011)

I think that you have misunderstood me. I think it is really cool that you are trying different methods for growing. If this works I too will be trying these bulbs. I have read the entire post and understand what you are trying to do. I am a born skeptic. I can't believe that engineers at GE or Phillips have overlooked the basics of photosynthesis and have not created a bulb for the horticultural industry. It seems too easy. If it works great job but for now for me it just seems that you proved it works but is it actually better than current methods I will have to see others yields. I know you say it is not about yields but big healthy viable plants yield more than weak ones. We will see and I promise I mean no disrespect. I think it is great that you are trying new things.


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## LightLady (Oct 4, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> I think that you have misunderstood me. I think it is really cool that you are trying different methods for growing. If this works I too will be trying these bulbs. I have read the entire post and understand what you are trying to do. I am a born skeptic. I can't believe that engineers at GE or Phillips have overlooked the basics of photosynthesis and have not created a bulb for the horticultural industry. It seems too easy. If it works great job but for now for me it just seems that you proved it works but is it actually better than current methods I will have to see others yields. I know you say it is not about yields but big healthy viable plants yield more than weak ones. We will see and I promise I mean no disrespect. I think it is great that you are trying new things.


pr0fesseur's wavelength/nm research is dead on & the results of using these specialty t5 lamps are beneficial in several ways. since there are so many variables in an interior grow ranging from plant strain to grow medium to room design/layout, he is wise to simply experiment with the lighting variable & report his results. 

when doing my first grow [to learn the ropes, sort of speak] i decided to go completely t5 start to finish because i realized an interesting alignment in nm wavelengths produced by 'aquarium t5ho lamps' & i wanted to see if the theory that was evident in the spectral chart overlays proved out.
i encountered all kinds of realworld issues as a newbie from overwatering to high temp./humidity room conditions to gnats/spidermites & even mistakenly feeding too high levels of nutes in an aeroponic system causing the ladies to become super-stressed out on several occassions. these t5 lamps actually allowed me to correct the problems & heal the plants somewhat quickly, instead of losing the crop completely. [a real interesting benefit in my case] 
the results are a superior grade of bud. 

the reason that you cannot believe that the engineers at GE or Philips have overlooked the potential of these lamps for the horticulture industry is because you apparently do not understand the Business that GE & Philips are in. i have worked for over 30 years with the top guys at GE, Philips, Siemans [Osram] & Sylvania [both GTE & domestic] & i can tell you from personal experience that what you think they do to develop light source products is far from the reality. 
they haven't gotten the green light from the suits above because there is not enough profit in it for them. be assured that if/when the numbers become 'more interesting' they will get the mandate from marketing to jump on it immediately & then they will tweek the existing aquarium t5.s to offer their revolutionary new Horticulture product.

i would rather have a higher quality product than more of a lower quality product. 
you decide which is best for ur situation ::: Quality vs. Quantity


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## Tyler123 (Oct 4, 2011)

I am greedy, I want both! Anyway I am anxiously waiting to see the buds that these lights produce. I am not sure but I did not think that underwater plants were of the flowering type.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 4, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> I am greedy, I want both! Anyway I am anxiously waiting to see the buds that these lights produce. I am not sure but I did not think that underwater plants were of the flowering type.


What are u stoned or just thick....
These bulbs are for "coral" growth.. yes remember zoolanthe from school... plants that live in a symbiotic relationship with coral to provide essential nutrients to the coral polyps... 
The education standards are lacking these days
Some aponogetons flower underwater...
Before you open your digital mouth to spout ignorance I suggest you google your thoughts before putting them in writing..


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 4, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> I think that you have misunderstood me. I think it is really cool that you are trying different methods for growing. If this works I too will be trying these bulbs. I have read the entire post and understand what you are trying to do. I am a born skeptic. I can't believe that engineers at GE or Phillips have overlooked the basics of photosynthesis and have not created a bulb for the horticultural industry. It seems too easy. If it works great job but for now for me it just seems that you proved it works but is it actually better than current methods I will have to see others yields. I know you say it is not about yields but big healthy viable plants yield more than weak ones. We will see and I promise I mean no disrespect. I think it is great that you are trying new things.


Um these bulbs are made by Sylvania and GE just rebranded you must have missed a few posts there....we discussed manufacturers and found Sylvania makes these bulbs... this technology is NOT YET AVAILABLE in HID systems.. but IS on the horizon, and will be shortly replaced by plasma(.) period.
These companies dont make their own bulbs.. factories needed to make these bulbs are HUGE! and requite SH*TlLOADS of power... these bulbs make up less than 1% of total bulb sales world wide..
you would go broke just making these bulbs... so you have to make all bulbs.. 
now lets say you want to make your own bulb of whatever color, 
go HERE http://amglo.com/ Go here fill out the form and they will make you a lamp... 
Im pretty sure they will make you an HID lamp that will meet the exact colors i am using here... with a 1000W lamp
Now what's the formula of phosphors to produce it? because thats what they WILL NOT HELP YOU WITH! 
So companies like Sylvania receive orders from whoever makes the fuji purple red sun etc bulbs and they happily make 100k bulbs at a time... 
Trust me if i could afford it i would make a custom bulb... HOWEVER Plasma bulbs are and will be the future of HID lighting.. but in an led style application 8 100w plasmas will outperform 20 1000W HPS bulbs because Plasma light is intense over the ENTIRE spectrum, i will admit they lack in deep & infra red..


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 4, 2011)

How would running this during Flower be with 2 Red suns and a standard T5 HO light?

http://www.aquacave.com/giesemann-powerchrome-br-pure-actinic-t5-lamps-835.html


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 4, 2011)

Remember that actinic and uv help with resin production.. I would try to broaden your actinic spectrum like an aquablue plus if thats the only one you'll have.. Actinics are very necessary throughout the ENTIRE growing process. You cannot and should not IMHO use only the red sunf for flowering.. as they are not "flowering bulbs" They are part of a whole and work better "With" actinics than "Without"
I am not saying the plants wont grow of course they will.. but you will see a very clear difference once you complete the PAR specrum..


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## LightLady (Oct 5, 2011)

give the ladies what they need


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## LightLady (Oct 5, 2011)




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## PetFlora (Oct 5, 2011)

*Heads Up:* At least one of my Red Suns is bad.  In just 4 days of use, the intensity has fallen to where it looks like my Quantum Bloom bulb. 

I contacted Aquarium Specialties, alas no replacements are immediately available. That said, it will be shipped direct from mfg.  I installed my other Red Sun yesterday. Hopefully it is OK. If not, what should I replace with? I have 2 Wave Lighting Coral Waves on order. They have a nice red peak


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## Psytranceorgy (Oct 5, 2011)

go with Coralife Colormax...
http://coralifeproducts.com/product/lamps/#t5-ho

Even available at PetCo online for $14.87!
http://www.petco.com/product/113082/Coralife-T5-High-Output-Colormax-Lamp.aspx?CoreCat=OnSiteSearch


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## PetFlora (Oct 5, 2011)

Unfortunately, they do not post graphs


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## Psytranceorgy (Oct 5, 2011)

I linked the graph twice in my reply above... You can see it on their website or in the pic I posted.

FYI the graph is also clearly printed (with nm labels across x-axis) on the box when you buy them. I was in PetCo looking at them the other day.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 5, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> I linked the graph twice in my reply above... You can see it on their website or in the pic I posted.
> 
> FYI the graph is also clearly printed (with nm labels across x-axis) on the box when you buy them. I was in PetCo looking at them the other day.


Unfortunately those bulbs are the "walmart" of bulbs cheap you bet! bad phosphors... they loose their color fast and have very poor quality control... 4-5$ more you can get a quality bulb...


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## AltarNation (Oct 5, 2011)

Okay, just started flower period, bag seed six weeks from sprout. changed out two 454's for two Red Suns, leaving in the actinic and the 75/25 to accompany the 2 coral lifes and 2 fiji purps... I must say, the glow is more pleasant to MY eyes... anyway, I'll throw up some pictures as things progress for those looking for flowering results from these setups... but I won't necessarily be a good scientific sample as there have been a lot of variables that didn't get pieced together til halfway thru veg, including the actual aquarium bulbs...


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 5, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Okay, just started flower period, changed out two 454's for two Red Suns, leaving in the actinic and the 75/25 to accompany the 2 coral lifes and 2 fiji purps... I must say, the glow is more pleasant to MY eyes...


Actinics are hard on the eyes for sure... but plants love'em  and thats what matters


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## AltarNation (Oct 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Actinics are hard on the eyes for sure... but plants love'em  and thats what matters


Indeed... but it is definitely more bearable with red suns than with the 454s!!


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## PROF XAVIER (Oct 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Remember that actinic and uv help with resin production.. I would try to broaden your actinic spectrum like an aquablue plus if thats the only one you'll have.. Actinics are very necessary throughout the ENTIRE growing process. You cannot and should not IMHO use only the red sunf for flowering.. as they are not "flowering bulbs" They are part of a whole and work better "With" actinics than "Without"
> I am not saying the plants wont grow of course they will.. but you will see a very clear difference once you complete the PAR specrum..


Hey prOfesseur, new member to the rollitup community...am very pleased to see a thread on these bulbs. You are 100% correct in your ideas, trials, and thoughts on coral bulbs on plant growth. But just like the sun, the range of color isn't the only important thing. Remember, it IS about lumens, and the PAR spectrum, and an absolute even light distribution across the canopy, and heat distribution, and one that I feel is important is the CRI of the bulb, or color rendering index. If all of these can be joined into one super bulb, than the sun may have it's competition. The sun puts off 10,000 lumens per square ft., at 100 CRI, delivering all a plant can handle. With a full spectrum bulb, supplemented with the coral bulbs, you get the right amount of lumens, at the right PAR levels. Consider the T5 Badboy 12-16 bulb fixture with supplemental lights on the side.....maybe 2-4 coral bulbs in the main fixture..... Not sure if anyone has discussed this option.
Oh, and by the way, those fixtures can be retrofitted as one big cool tube, resulting in absolutely zero heat that can be placed an inch above the canopy for almost 7500 lumens per sq ft, when run with Co2 @ 1250-1500 PPM's, which is about the optimal level that an indoor grower can get, with right temperatures, and humidity..........who knows the possibilities!!!!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 5, 2011)

PROF XAVIER said:


> Hey prOfesseur, new member to the rollitup community...am very pleased to see a thread on these bulbs. You are 100% correct in your ideas, trials, and thoughts on coral bulbs on plant growth. But just like the sun, the range of color isn't the only important thing. Remember, it IS about lumens, and the PAR spectrum, and an absolute even light distribution across the canopy, and heat distribution, and one that I feel is important is the CRI of the bulb, or color rendering index. If all of these can be joined into one super bulb, than the sun may have it's competition. The sun puts off 10,000 lumens per square ft., at 100 CRI, delivering all a plant can handle. With a full spectrum bulb, supplemented with the coral bulbs, you get the right amount of lumens, at the right PAR levels. Consider the T5 Badboy 12-16 bulb fixture with supplemental lights on the side.....maybe 2-4 coral bulbs in the main fixture..... Not sure if anyone has discussed this option.
> Oh, and by the way, those fixtures can be retrofitted as one big cool tube, resulting in absolutely zero heat that can be placed an inch above the canopy for almost 7500 lumens per sq ft, when run with Co2 @ 1250-1500 PPM's, which is about the optimal level that an indoor grower can get, with right temperatures, and humidity..........who knows the possibilities!!!!


Welcome to the forum. and glad to see you so excited..
2 issues... Lumens are a measurement of light responsiveness to the EYE... which is measured @460nm to 600nm NONE of which plants need... so its not @ all about lumens. again 100k lumens @ 500nm wouldent grow lichen... let alone plants.. infra red had 0 lumens yet 10k watts will burn your flesh! 
Plants dont actually need a high intensity light source as a matter of fact plants can only absorb 20% of what the sun outputs.. high intensity light has caused plants to defend themselves with auxins oils and waxes against the harmful rays of the sun... Its also a proven fact that diffused light is more efficient for plant growth as photons are made to travel in all directions vs a single direction.. this causes the light to enter the leaf surface and interact with multiple layers of pigments to aid in photosynthesis...
The more surface area you provide the plants with light the shorter the distance the light travels the more effective it is! a single light source will never be more efficient than light spread over an area.
oh ya 2 CRI is oly the ability of a bulb to represent a specific color measured against a black body radiator and completely useless as a measurement for anything related to plant growth. sorry to burst your bubble on that one.. CRI is only defined for light sources that are approximately white.. 

I know someone is gonna say "the suns a single light source" and for him or her who thinks that ... i shake my head in disgust...


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## PROF XAVIER (Oct 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Welcome to the forum. and glad to see you so excited..
> 2 issues... Lumens are a measurement of light responsiveness to the EYE... which is measured @460nm to 600nm NONE of which plants need... so its not @ all about lumens. again 100k lumens @ 500nm wouldent grow lichen... let alone plants.. infra red had 0 lumens yet 10k watts will burn your flesh!
> Plants dont actually need a high intensity light source as a matter of fact plants can only absorb 20% of what the sun outputs.. high intensity light has caused plants to defend themselves with auxins oils and waxes against the harmful rays of the sun... Its also a proven fact that diffused light is more efficient for plant growth as photons are made to travel in all directions vs a single direction.. this causes the light to enter the leaf surface and interact with multiple layers of pigments to aid in photosynthesis...
> The more surface area you provide the plants with light the shorter the distance the light travels the more effective it is! a single light source will never be more efficient than light spread over an area.
> ...


I don't mean to argue with you, but lumens are perceived by the plant as well, why do you think so many people are so reluctant to growing with HPS??? It works because cannabis is a high light level plant. What the HPS growers dont' realize is that it is at the wrong spectrum and their plants could benefit from correcting this issure. Sure plants can grow using less lumens, but what if you could combine both?? Spectrum and lumens....exactly what the sun is. Plants can absorb different intensities of light depending on its' environment, which Professor Marijuana is very critical about, because with EXACT temperatures, EXACT humidity, and EXACT CO2 levels, combined with an avg. of 6800-7500 lumens per sq. ft., with the plant recieving the correct PAR levels, you can achieve results similar or better to Professor Marijuana who used 2000W, 60 plant aeroponic system, 80-100F, 55-60% R/H, and CO2 PPM's @ 1500. He yielded 11 lbs. in 45 days. And YES, diffused light is AWESOME!!! Look up ORCA reflective film. Hands down, by far, superior to mylar and all similar products. Maybe suggest changing out all reflective surfaces with this.


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 6, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> go with Coralife Colormax...
> http://coralifeproducts.com/product/lamps/#t5-ho
> 
> Even available at PetCo online for $14.87!
> ...



I do like that price point. Professeur what do you think about these?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 6, 2011)

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this $15 GE yet







http://www.eyepoppincorals.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=40


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## Psytranceorgy (Oct 6, 2011)

yeah, Lucius, you did... on page 63. and got replies on page 64.


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## PetFlora (Oct 6, 2011)

the sun -The Sun* -THE SUN.* Come on people. The Suns is a constant. It's the RELATIONSHIP between Mother Earth, the sun (and the moon) that guides farmers. 

Why do you think farmers plant in early Spring and harvest in the Fall? Yes, the weather plays a big part, but so does the Sun's varying spectral intensity due to earths' _elliptical_ path around it. Since we grow indoors, weather is less of a factor and can be controlled. What does that leave? LIGHT_, or more specifically, the ability to simulate natures' Spring-Fall spectral cycle_. 

Fixed spectrum lights (even with excellent PAR) fail to provide the _varying_ PAR intensity required at the 2-3 different stages of a plant's cycle. That goes for Plasmas too!

I have grown with 400watt MH/HPS, LED, CFLs. The only lights that can _simulate the Spring-Fall spectral cycle_ at a reasonable cost is T5s/ Coral bulbs. 

Since flipping to 12/12 just 5 days ago (and with one barely performing Red Sun) and no Actinic to speak of (though the Quantum Grow has a short peak) the inter-nodal growth is exploding. Bud site branches are already 2"+ long at the top nodes, and 4-6" near the bottom, all with stout stems. I have never experienced anything like this. _Viva la HO T 5 + Coral Bulbs!_ hth


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 7, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> yeah, Lucius, you did... on page 63. and got replies on page 64.


damn i still can't find it! lol


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## MurshDawg (Oct 7, 2011)

Does anyone know where I can get those ATI pro color 660 nm lamps in 54 watt?


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## hyroot (Oct 7, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Does anyone know where I can get those ATI pro color 660 nm lamps in 54 watt?



they have been discontinued


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## hyroot (Oct 7, 2011)

has any one had problems with their badboy.? lately if mine gets bumped 2 bulbs stop working then i twist them in the other direction and they work again.


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## hmmmmm..... (Oct 7, 2011)

hey prof, i was wondering what the monthly extra cost on your electricity bill is because my 600watts on 12/12 is £20epm and 125cfl on 22/2 is about £5/10epm so to run these for the full cycle must cost a little extra?
regards
sorry for the monetary question


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## Tyler123 (Oct 7, 2011)

The only bulbs I can get locally are made by HAGEN. They are 30.00 each. Does anyone know if these are good quality? I am looking at their actinic.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 7, 2011)

hyroot said:


> has any one had problems with their badboy.? lately if mine gets bumped 2 bulbs stop working then i twist them in the other direction and they work again.


I have the 16 bulb, every 4 bulbs is controlled by an individual ballast with an on off switch, 1 out of 4 can not turn off, It's been that way since I received the fixture. I use a lighting controller so I can bypass this problem, but yeah.... I'm having issues with mine too. 

Here's some pics of a plant under the light.
Day 1






Day 8


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## hyroot (Oct 8, 2011)

Mine is an 8 bulb and its the 2 bulbs at one end. It seemed kind of flimsy as I put it together too. I might get one of those HTG ones for the next 8 bulb..They are even the same price after shipping. They run on 120 or 240 and have similar reflectors too.

. finally got a camera that actually works

Day 2 of flower under the t5.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 8, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Mine is an 8 bulb and its the 2 bulbs at one end. It seemed kind of flimsy as I put it together too. I might get one of those HTG ones for the next 8 bulb..They are even the same price after shipping. They run on 120 or 240 and have similar reflectors too.
> 
> . finally got a camera that actually works
> 
> ...


As far as electrical issues, Mine flickerd when i moved them.. i opened up the top and checked every connection.. they were hastily put together and have since behaved...
The ballasts are what i am after...
http://www.goodmart.com/products/fulham-race-horse-23-t5ho-fluorescent-electronic-ballast-120-277v-rh23-unv-254lt5.htm?source=gsGM


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## PROF XAVIER (Oct 8, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Mine is an 8 bulb and its the 2 bulbs at one end. It seemed kind of flimsy as I put it together too. I might get one of those HTG ones for the next 8 bulb..They are even the same price after shipping. They run on 120 or 240 and have similar reflectors too.
> 
> . finally got a camera that actually works
> 
> ...


You can reinforce the light fixture using simple components. Also, with a few pieces of Plexiglas and duct connectors, you can run a cool tube type fixture where the light can touch the plant for days without burning....delivering more light distribution than a 1000 Watt HPS. Just simple engineering and a trip to Lowes.


----------



## PROF XAVIER (Oct 8, 2011)

hyroot said:


> they have been discontinued


By the way, pretty plants and good color spectrum...be curious to see what they would do with more full spectrum linens maybe as a supplement? Cannabis is high light level plant. Best strains from Mexico and Afghanistan where sunlight is very intense. Just my two cents but VERY nice plants.


----------



## PROF XAVIER (Oct 8, 2011)

PROF XAVIER said:


> By the way, pretty plants and good color spectrum...be curious to see what they would do with more full spectrum linens maybe as a supplement? Cannabis is high light level plant. Best strains from Mexico and Afghanistan where sunlight is very intense. Just my two cents but VERY nice plants.


God damn spell check....lumens not linens!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 8, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Does anyone know where I can get those ATI pro color 660 nm lamps in 54 watt?


Sorry they are discontinued... I have since found replacements


----------



## PROF XAVIER (Oct 8, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> I have the 16 bulb, every 4 bulbs is controlled by an individual ballast with an on off switch, 1 out of 4 can not turn off, It's been that way since I received the fixture. I use a lighting controller so I can bypass this problem, but yeah.... I'm having issues with mine too.
> 
> Here's some pics of a plant under the light.
> Day 1
> ...


Each ballast in the Barboy controls a certain number of bulbs. If you are having problems with the bulbs, check to see if the wires are tightly tangled. Also, the end connectors have to be alligned in a certain way. Also, the pins on the bulbs cannot have any oxidation, as will affect the bulb firing. Use fine grit sandpaper or a sharp xacto knife and gently scrape/ sand pins until nice silver finish removing all brown rust looking surface. Bending the fixture in one position too much will result in end connectors out of line and failure in bulb. Just use some kind of top reinforcement whether using steel or wood dowels or long bars, or apply 90 degree angle iron supports drilled through the corner of the fixtures. This fixture is flimsy....but with proper reinforcement, and correct bulbs...can be highly efficient light system!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 8, 2011)

Great garden... the light is kind of entrancing.. you look a the healthy plants and wonder why you didnt do this sooner!... looking great! glad to see your ladies are doing well.


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## hyroot (Oct 8, 2011)

you notice when you leave your garden how everything looks like a hazy shade of green as if you just took a shot of weed tincture vodka. Everything goes green lol


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## hmmmmm..... (Oct 8, 2011)

hey prof, as an oxford university man, would you know if it would be possible to double or triple this guys idea with a car battery to get a 125cfl working? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR37MDIrU_E
or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cLjuec8mz1E&NR=1

kind regards


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## MurshDawg (Oct 8, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Sorry they are discontinued... I have since found replacements


 SWEET! Did you post the link earlier on? I was doing research on the effects of infrared light upon plant life and I think I stumbled upon the reason why HID heads think that HIDs are the end all be all. Is it possible that infrared energy, emitted from a lamp, is what causes plants to stretch. That seems to be the only variable that separates our lighting style from the HID heads.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 8, 2011)

For all those wanting the Air Pots heres the link
_*http://www.airpotgarden.com/store/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=catshow&ref=airpot*_


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## Myles117 (Oct 8, 2011)

t5 power baby!


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## hyroot (Oct 8, 2011)

*here is a side by side comparison of a t5 with coral bulbs vs a 1k with an eye hortilux. They are 5 weeks apart. Im liking the t5 much more. Both lights do bleed a little into each side. thats all the room I have. Also I have since lowered the t5 and put the ducting back up on the 1k. was doing maintenance and cleaning .

I will document all this to put an end to t5 haters. the t5 is so much more brighter than my 1k

using 3 gal pots and feed guano tea that's it


*


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## Kaptain Kron (Oct 8, 2011)

hey prof, why the plastic air pots instead of smart pot style ones, i actually like the plastic ones alot especially their compost bin they make but fuck man $$$$$$$$$ lol so im tryin to find the distinct advantage of going to those instead of smart pots, im actually using smart pots right now in my micro grow.


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## AltarNation (Oct 8, 2011)

PROF XAVIER said:


> You can reinforce the light fixture using simple components. Also, with a few pieces of Plexiglas and duct connectors, you can run a cool tube type fixture where the light can touch the plant for days without burning....delivering more light distribution than a 1000 Watt HPS. Just simple engineering and a trip to Lowes.


Strongly considering modding my 8-bulb setup with a plexiglass cage of some sort. I'll see what they have at the local stores and see what I can come up with. I have the SunStar HTG clone of the bad boy... very similar except the lights do not have switches and the ballasts are between instead of above so there's a gap... none the less, it's working pretty well, save for the fact that I have to be kind of careful about how close I let them get, as I have had a few burns and some wilting on hotter days. (Still dialing in exhaust system, but have been keeping things open air to compensate.)

Question, have you built one of these? I'm thinking that you'd want to hold the plexi off the bulbs a little... I'd like to seal it in with some good air flow, but wondering how far off the bulbs need to stay from the plexi to avoid the plexi heating up... I guess, with a good enclosure and a strong exhaust fan, you could have it almost right on the bulbs and still stay cool... thinking just shy of an inch, and then you have a unit that lets your plants get right up to the 1" distance without any risk of burn. I have an exhaust blower that I am hooking up tomorrow, but now I am thinking I might as well pipe it directly from a hood through a passive intake.


----------



## pr0fesseur (Oct 8, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> hey prof, why the plastic air pots instead of smart pot style ones, i actually like the plastic ones alot especially their compost bin they make but fuck man $$$$$$$$$ lol so im tryin to find the distinct advantage of going to those instead of smart pots, im actually using smart pots right now in my micro grow.


 Plastic air pots come off while leaving behind a mint condition rootball and super easy to transplant, all you have to do is stack them on top of more dirt like a pyramid...the plant will grow down into the next medium.... theyre easy to water and you CANT over water... theyre great in ebband flow as they have perforations for water entry and drainage evenly...
theyre not $$$... i got my pots for about 7$ they will last FOREVER... the plastic theyre made of is a durable nylon. theyre stupid prof.. they dont break roots they air prune... and your roots will never choke themselves.


----------



## GodSlave (Oct 9, 2011)

Hey Prof- Good read! I have a four light T5 reflector that needs bulb replacing. Agromax makes a 10,000k bulb, and I can get 4 for like $17. Would these work just as well? Would you do 2 10,000k and 2 3000k or all 10,000k? Thanks for all your research, I'm glad this thread was referred to me.
GS


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> *here is a side by side comparison of a t5 with coral bulbs vs a 1k with an eye hortilux. They are 5 weeks apart. Im liking the t5 much more. Both lights do bleed a little into each side. thats all the room I have. Also I have since lowered the t5 and put the ducting back up on the 1k. was doing maintenance and cleaning .
> 
> I will document all this to put an end to t5 haters. the t5 is so much more brighter than my 1k
> 
> ...


The way you shot that the 1000wt def looks like it is growing the thicker buds.


----------



## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 9, 2011)

GodSlave said:


> Would these work just as well? Would you do 2 10,000k and 2 3000k or all 10,000k?


No!... they will not work as well....If you've read the thread, the pr0fesseur doesn't recommend any of those bulbs. I believe someone asked about the 10,000k bulbs a while back and the recommendation from the pr0fesseur was a 10,000k bulb could be used in place of the 75.25 bulb to supplement the Orange , green, and yellow spectrum BUT it in no way was superior to the 75.25 bulb. 



Lucius Vorenus said:


> The way you shot that the 1000wt def looks like it is growing the thicker buds.


That's because the 1000w plants are 5 weeks ahead of the T5 plants..... Dude!!!.. just read what you quoted.


----------



## GodSlave (Oct 9, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> No!... they will not work as well....If you've read the thread, the pr0fesseur doesn't recommend any of those bulbs. I believe someone asked about the 10,000k bulbs a while back and the recommendation from the pr0fesseur was a 10,000k bulb could be used in place of the 75.25 bulb to supplement the Orange , green, and yellow spectrum BUT it in no way was superior to the 75.25 bulb.


I may have missed that, but it doesn't seem right that a 10k bulb would be supplementing orange, green, and yellow, when it is a super blue. Are you sure about that? Can you point me to the page you are talking about please?
I believe I am correct in that the bulbs he is using are 12,000k, is there that much difference between 10,000k and 12k, rendering the 10k totally useless? 
I want to see what the prof says. Sorry prof if I missed your response to the 10k bulbs, I read many many many pages of this thread, but admittedly I didn't read every single page, some pages were tied up with trolls ragging on you...

GS


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## novice11 (Oct 9, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> t5 power baby!


I have to ask a bit of a silly question, but Where did you get your drip trays? I have been looking and have found nothing much. Thanks!


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## GodSlave (Oct 9, 2011)

novice11 said:


> I have to ask a bit of a silly question, but Where did you get your drip trays? I have been looking and have found nothing much. Thanks!


 LOL! I was wondering the same thing!!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 9, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> No!... they will not work as well....If you've read the thread, the pr0fesseur doesn't recommend any of those bulbs. I believe someone asked about the 10,000k bulbs a while back and the recommendation from the pr0fesseur was a 10,000k bulb could be used in place of the 75.25 bulb to supplement the Orange , green, and yellow spectrum BUT it in no way was superior to the 75.25 bulb.
> 
> 
> 
> That's because the 1000w plants are 5 weeks ahead of the T5 plants..... Dude!!!.. just read what you quoted.


Shit. My bad.

Hey do you have which bulbs you are using listed somewhere? 5 weeks difference is AMAZING! WEll done.


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## GodSlave (Oct 9, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Shit. My bad.
> 
> Hey do you have which bulbs you are using listed somewhere? 5 weeks difference is AMAZING! WEll done.


 Lol, not 5 weeks in advanced growth. They are 5 weeks in age difference.


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

novice11 said:


> I have to ask a bit of a silly question, but Where did you get your drip trays? I have been looking and have found nothing much. Thanks!



any hydro shop will sell 10X20 trays without holes. also you can find em on many webshops. i got mine from amazon as well as sunburst hydro

http://www.4hydro.com/cloning/blackPropTray.asp


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2011)

novice11 said:


> I have to ask a bit of a silly question, but Where did you get your drip trays? I have been looking and have found nothing much. Thanks!



those are propagation trays. They are usually used for clones. you put the dome over them


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

not if you use them as drip trays  dont think a dome would work well for me right now


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> not if you use them as drip trays  dont think a dome would work well for me right now


I was being facetious.

Its funny how much cheaper those are than regular saucers


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

and im just giving ya shit  all in good fun bro!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 9, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> and im just giving ya shit  all in good fun bro!


Hey myles glad to see you here again.. sorry to everyone i am moving into a new place for a few months so i can renovate my next home... I will be starting up over the winter to take advantage of the cool air....
Love all the new posts keep them coming so we may prove to this community that this thread deserves a subsection!!! T5 Section T5 section!!!!!
Maybe i should start a petition..?


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

can i sign twice? 

hope you have a smooth move bro (as smooth as such a hectic event can go anywho)


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 9, 2011)

"T5 section! T5 section! T5 section!" +1


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2011)

T5 section


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## MurshDawg (Oct 9, 2011)

here's my update, guys. These bulbs are no joke! I love them but my plants love them more. [video=youtube;FqTl5tMe5VM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FqTl5tMe5VM[/video]


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

i love the traveling finger point lol

how far away from tops do you keep your lights? wasnt sure if you raise em up for the update or if you keep em so far away from the plants.

with fimming and topping it can def stunt/slow growth. they catch right up though 

hopefullly I'll have some sun reds by next weekend.


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> i love the traveling finger point lol
> 
> how far away from tops do you keep your lights? wasnt sure if you raise em up for the update or if you keep em so far away from the plants.
> 
> ...



hellolights.com has them in stock. they package very well.


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## MurshDawg (Oct 9, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> i love the traveling finger point lol
> 
> how far away from tops do you keep your lights? wasnt sure if you raise em up for the update or if you keep em so far away from the plants.
> 
> ...


Thanks bro! I try to be at least consistent (finger points and such) I do raise the light to film but I return it to with in 8 inches of the canopy. while not tending to them. You'll enjoy those Red Sun lamps


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> hellolights.com has them in stock. they package very well.


much apppreciated  i gotta get an order in asap



MurshDawg said:


> Thanks bro! I try to be at least consistent (finger points and such) I do raise the light to film but I return it to with in 8 inches of the canopy. while not tending to them. You'll enjoy those Red Sun lamps


i figured you dropped em down after video  good shit. its always a great sign when you gotta trim the plants in veg cuz they are so dense. happy plants grow fatty colas!

my room hit 100 degrees today  the girls didnt mind but I dont like seeign that. unseasonably warm weather last few days (today was 90 out and bout 5 days ago the high for the day was bout 60....screwy shit lol)

keeping one of my 4 bulb fixtures off till temps cool back off inna few days. cant wait for winter!!!!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 9, 2011)

Update: Day 11 under new light
Observations:
Continued explosive new growth the past few days The last couple days I've had to raise my light a full chain rung per day (2").
Plants still stink but not quite like the first week, plants are still producing trix' on the leaves.
Plants have mostly reverted back to growing green stalks instead of purple
Plants are growing wider than they are tall with very tight internodes.
One happy camper.


Day 11






Day 1






& some random pics












Day8





















Day 11 sour-d
















Day 1 sour-d


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

wow broo, nice looking mantis!!!!  does he live in there with your plants?

plants are looking to be veryyyy happy. keep up the good work


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 9, 2011)

Day 11 after the Rez change.
The plants have gotten so bushy I had to add another tote today. I have another BB 8 lamp coming this week, when I get it I'll add another tote and spread out the plants even more.


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## Myles117 (Oct 9, 2011)

moreeee powahhhh!!!!!


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## MurshDawg (Oct 9, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Day 11 after the Rez change.
> The plants have gotten so bushy I had to add another tote today. I have another BB 8 lamp coming this week, when I get it I'll add another tote and spread out the plants even more.
> Lookin nice and bushy!


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## hyroot (Oct 9, 2011)

Nice. I like how you have the small light on the side. I want to add a couple of 4 ft 2 bulbs on each side. Going to get another 8 or 12 first, not sure which.....


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## daveroller (Oct 9, 2011)

Subscribed! I hope I can catch the flower phase to see what you do. Should be interesting.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 9, 2011)

Hey Love the plants... they almost doubled from the last time we saw them.. no more wilting etc... Im usingthe same tough totes and gasket to prevent the leaking great boxes though they dont swell when you put water in them! and theyre easy to move too...


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 10, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Hey Love the plants... they almost doubled from the last time we saw them.. no more wilting etc... Im usingthe same tough totes and gasket to prevent the leaking great boxes though they dont swell when you put water in them! and theyre easy to move too...


Are you going DWC pr0fesseur?


----------



## lamabile85 (Oct 10, 2011)

I love what those T5's are doing. From my understanding, you can get blue and red spectrum light for the BB's? Also, would it be better to stop off with 6, 8, or, 12 bulb?


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 10, 2011)

GodSlave said:


> Lol, not 5 weeks in advanced growth. They are 5 weeks in age difference.


Right. i got that. Just looking for a list and links to specific bulbs


----------



## PetFlora (Oct 10, 2011)

Here's a couple photos of various grow methods- HPA/F&D/Air Pot

This is 3 week old from seeds in HPA rig. They were too far away from the lights. I just rearranged late yesterday. The one in the front is slightly wilted due to not getting enough mist. I repositioned after taking this pic. The droopy one in the right rear seems to be the same pheno as the one in the AP. The leaves are grow bigger and heavier than the stems ability to support. 


The next 2 are of the AP. Originally in a standard pot, it was totally root bound. I moved to 4" AP, then a week later to 1.5G AP. Growth has been explosive. Sigh, it's got balls, but I may keep it to cross with the fast growing bitch in the F/D rig.




Group shot of all 3 methods. Plants are in various stages of growth. The tall one on the right (F/D) was ~7" just 2 weeks ago when I transplanted her to the F/D. She is now 27", growing 2"+ per day. Just before lights out yesterday I raised the light 2". This morning she was touching it!  




She's one fast growing bitch! I took 7 clones near the base. In the lower left is another plant that I moved from HPA one week later. This one had wilted so many times I am surprised it has responded so well., but is too far away from the light to get what it needs. There are 2 other plants in there. I may need to rearrange the furniture.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 10, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Hey do you have which bulbs you are using listed somewhere?




Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple 
UVL 454nm with internal reflector 
UVL Red Suns/Red Life
ULV Super Actinic @ 420nm with internal reflector
UVL 75.25 with internal reflector

I use those bulbs in that order repeated. I ordered them from Aquarium Specialty .com


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Are you going DWC pr0fesseur?


I DID grow dwc my first round but the heat from hid turned my res into a swamp... couldent keep the temps down... i have pics in my community...


----------



## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Right. i got that. Just looking for a list and links to specific bulbs


Start with my sig... look down
newbs should stick with pr0fs bulbs/recommendations until they have a grow under their belt... 
depending on your grow area i would suggest starting with an 8 bulb heres why ...
get an 8 bulb and populate only 4
when your plants start getting ready for bloom you can drop in another 4 and stagger your cost... i suggest owning a total of 10-12 bulbs that you can switch out for veg/bloom.
most fixtures have more than one switch if they dont theyre crap!... stay far away from the value fixtures... the ballasts are what your after ballasts are worth their weight in herb... 
Some ballasts will wear out your bulbs faster because they dont use a delayed start... my ballasts are Dimmable, electronic delayed "soft" start..!! and thats important because if im having heat issues i can lower the light output without sacrificing overall coverage....
I know the bad boy fixtures seem flimsy and buggy they just need a little tlc before primetime.. you have to open the top cover and check all your connections and tighten all wires. what they lack in rigidity they make up for in overall weight! and dissasemble quickly!
For those of you who do have bad boys check out this neat trick! order 20 computer thumscrews and your badboy can come apart and pack up in less than 5 minutes.... i also dissasemble for cleaning its quite easy... 
oh and use a little rain-x and a microfiber cloth to bring out the super shine and make them easy to clean!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2011)

I cant stress enough the importance of the t5 with internal reflector....


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## Myles117 (Oct 10, 2011)

please let me know if i got the wrong bulb in the other thread... ya got me stressin haha


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2011)

Prof did you switch out your ballast? my badboy is not dimmable


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## grapeoptimo (Oct 10, 2011)

been lurking for a few days now will be trying out some of these T5 tubes soon.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Prof did you switch out your ballast? my badboy is not dimmable


sorry ... just hooked it up to a dimmer to test... i can dimm slightly then off...  opened it up sure enough...
they are RHA not RHD for dimmable...
http://www.1000bulbs.com/pdf/fulham 2010 catalog.pdf
could have swon they were the dimmable ones... i take it back.... cant dimm...
i remember reading somewhere that these were dimmable maybe quantums other ballasts are where i got the idea...


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2011)

yeah I have a quantum 1000 and its dimmable and their 600 and 400 are too.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 10, 2011)

When I reordered bulbs I noticed the price on all these bulbs went up by 5$ @ AquariumSpecialty.c =( , + they won't have the Actanics or the 454's in stock for 2 weeks. Looks like I'm going to have to shop around.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> When I reordered bulbs I noticed the price on all these bulbs went up by 5$ @ AquariumSpecialty.c =( , + they won't have the Actanics or the 454's in stock for 2 weeks. Looks like I'm going to have to shop around.


I think we have singlehandedly caused the t5 market sector to start up! theres plenty of places to get these bulbs...


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## ^NoR*[email protected] (Oct 10, 2011)

congrats! you have fueled my fire, as i was wrongly satisfied with the norm... *******+REP........ cuz i cant press da buttin

thanks Pr0f.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2011)

$18 at amazon guys use your supersaver shipping!!
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PQU512/ref=noref?ie=UTF8&s=hi&psc=1
http://www.f3pets.com/UVL-46.5-Inch-T12-VHO-Super/M/B001EHJPB8.htm
http://www.petsupplynow.net/uv_lighting_company_uvl_H47pc.php


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2011)

^NoR*[email protected] said:


> congrats! you have fueled my fire, as i was wrongly satisfied with the norm... *******+REP........ cuz i cant press da buttin
> 
> thanks Pr0f.


Very welcome! and thank you for your support im just trying to give back..


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## ^NoR*[email protected] (Oct 11, 2011)

you gave me the facts i needed, as i am a factual learner, realist idk. but that does make a lot of sence. it confused me slightly when i joind this community recently an every one's t5 wer like store lights... it didnt seem right. but now having a decent t5ballast, with you help it will out produce its help, so thanks again sir


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## PetFlora (Oct 11, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I DID grow dwc my first round but the heat from hid turned my res into a swamp... couldent keep the temps down... i have pics in my community...


I am blown away by how much the side branching has grown since taking the pics yesterday morning. Most are 8-10" and each node has 2. 

For a variety of reasons try *Flood & Drain*. The largest plant is in a 4" net pot, which is inserted into (surrounded with) Lava Rock. The tray is actually a Rubbermaid tote; the high walls help keep the environment cool, ala a forest. The rez is external. I feed from the top and drain back into the rez from the bottom. This makes changing topping off nutes easy. The lava rock traps lots of tiny bubbles which helps oxygenate and feed roots between feedings.


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## novice11 (Oct 11, 2011)

Pr0fesseur, what size Air Pots are you using?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 11, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> $18 at amazon guys use your supersaver shipping!!
> http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001PQU512/ref=noref?ie=UTF8&s=hi&psc=1
> http://www.f3pets.com/UVL-46.5-Inch-T12-VHO-Super/M/B001EHJPB8.htm
> http://www.petsupplynow.net/uv_lighting_company_uvl_H47pc.php


Which ones to get Professeur?


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 11, 2011)

novice11 said:


> Pr0fesseur, what size Air Pots are you using?


2 gallons 

ITs great you can twist this little green screw and the unwrap leaving a perfect root ball.i suppose i could even take them off after a few weeks and they would stay put.. lol


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## Ponicengineer (Oct 12, 2011)

Oh goodness. This has consumed me entirely. /chases after wallet as it runs down the hall


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 12, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Which ones to get Professeur?


 Look at my SIG!!!


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## hyroot (Oct 12, 2011)

A little levity


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 12, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 2 gallons
> 
> ITs great you can twist this little green screw and the unwrap leaving a perfect root ball.i suppose i could even take them off after a few weeks and they would stay put.. lol


You use 2 gallon through the whole thing??


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 13, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> You use 2 gallon through the whole thing??


Indeed! I actually do.. Just dont pack the dirt down tight... The root ball will completely engulf the air pot using every inch of space and will air prune... if you need more room for growth, simply place in a larger bucket unwrap the pot and backfill with more dirt.... very little shock as the roots are already exposed to the environment.


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2011)

So I have 1 plant that is mostly under hps but a few tops are getting more light from the t5 and those tops are swelling up more than the rest of the plant.

i will post pics later,,,,


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 13, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Indeed! I actually do.. Just dont pack the dirt down tight... The root ball will completely engulf the air pot using every inch of space and will air prune... if you need more room for growth, simply place in a larger bucket unwrap the pot and backfill with more dirt.... very little shock as the roots are already exposed to the environment.


Really? Wow. Have you done that?

I need airpots, whats the best place to buy 3 gallon versions and have any of you used them with Coco or Rockwool grows yet?


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 13, 2011)

http://www.airpotgarden.com/
nuff said i only order from here. super fast shipping no hassle and great customer service... remember honey attracts more bees than vinegar  if you come off as an ass they will treat you accordingly... know what you want before you order you MUST order a minimum here...i use 2 galsand the mini starter pots they are a great fit for smaller grow and grew all my plants to 3' tall....
since airpots dont allow water to stay in the pot and drain away really fast i suggest NOT using rockwool or coco cubes.(coco yes)..the water retention will be an issue.. these are designed for soil/soiless mediums...with "some" water retention qualities.
[video=youtube;-NUjNBKex0I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NUjNBKex0I&feature=related[/video]
[video=youtube;nceTm3r1mZc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nceTm3r1mZc[/video]


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## grapeoptimo (Oct 14, 2011)

what posts in this thread can i find pics of plants flowering 7 weeks + under the T5 setup you have suggested?


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 14, 2011)

grapeoptimo said:


> what posts in this thread can i find pics of plants flowering 7 weeks + under the T5 setup you have suggested?


https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first-28.html#post6006261


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## PetFlora (Oct 15, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first-28.html#post6006261



You beat me to it. I was going to say... 

wait for it...

*RTDT*

*APs: I* started in the 4", then moved the plant to a 1.5G. Lay the plant on its side, remove the green thumb screw and the outer wall opens up. Root ball is in tact (you will see that the roots look like the video), gently place it inside the larger AP, and back fill. I think it is a good idea to use something in the base so the mix doesn't fall through. I had some S2G pads lying around that I cut, but I think a couple layers of unbleached napkins/paper towels will do the trick. _Follow directions! _The APs have a top and bottom. The top does not have holes in the first row to help prevent spillage. 

Aquarium Specialties must be having a problem as I still do not have my Actinics. Corals have been in stock, but I have been waiting for Actinics and Red Life replacement for 3 weeks to save on shipping. Spoke with Kelly who says her last 2 shipments indicated that the Actinics were shipped, but were not in the shipment. She said she will have mfg send direct along with my replacement Red Life. Tic Toc.

In the mean time, I have been using the one Red Life, one Quantum Bloom, four Quantum Grow and 2 Aqua Suns. I think it's too much blue. Since I flipped to 12/12 two weeks ago, the plants have been slow to show sex. I didn't want to use the 2900 Quantum Blooms, thinking I would have the others by now, but will switch the remaining 5 Grows out for Quantum Blooms at "lights on" this morning. 

My biggest plant continues to amaze me. Every day it grows 2-4" (now ~ 35") and all side branches are 10"+ long. Can't wait to show off the bud shots, but really need the missing bulbs to do it justice. I may have to order elsewhere.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 15, 2011)

I used the free panty hose socks you get @ the shoe store and wrapped that around the base!!! i have pics here somewhere


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 15, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> You beat me to it. I was going to say...
> 
> wait for it...
> 
> ...


Ya I can only vouch for my experience... but they are a great vendor and have been under high volume lately.. I do seriously think i have single handedly caused their sales to skyrocket!..
there is reefdepot and others that have the bulbs in question be patient it will happen..
On a second note i cant wait to see pics.. the blue bulbs will assist with growth and yes they will be reluctant to show flowers until you throw red light on them.. but it does happen SLOWLY..without red suns(life) what the fuk ever they call em now..
So happy that im not the only one seeing dramatic and visible differences using these bulbs. these knuckleheads think that HID is the ONLY way to grow AMAZING plants.. the proof is in the Pudding (bill cosby style)[video=youtube;taQqVHw4PYU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taQqVHw4PYU&feature=related[/video]


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## Myles117 (Oct 15, 2011)

bill cosby makes pudding durttyyyy hahahhahaha


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## ^NoR*[email protected] (Oct 15, 2011)

pr0fesseur, would i still use those bulbs you recomend if i will use the T5 for vugging, and my HPS for flower? or would i want to replace the red with another blue or purple?

its a 4 foot 4 tube. thanks Pr0fesseur!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 15, 2011)

fiji
454
UVL 75.25
Fiji


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## Tyler123 (Oct 15, 2011)

Anyone start flowering yet? Pics would be great.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 15, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> Anyone start flowering yet? Pics would be great.


yup go back and read the thread...last 8 pages or so should have pics... seek and ye shall find


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## Triplezero1 (Oct 15, 2011)

Great work pr0fesseur!!! Just got done reading all of the thread & I have a couple questions. 
1) What king of dry yields per m2 are you getting out of these lights?
2) How much heat are they throwing off?
3) what do you think about mixing them with high quality L.E.D. fixtures?


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 15, 2011)

Triplezero1 said:


> Great work pr0fesseur!!! Just got done reading all of the thread & I have a couple questions.
> 1) What king of dry yields per m2 are you getting out of these lights?
> 2) How much heat are they throwing off?
> 3) what do you think about mixing them with high quality L.E.D. fixtures?


 1.) If you read my thread i stated frequently my experiment was not about yield. and is impossible to quantify yield when measuring just the lights capability to grow.. too many variables to make an accurate statement. yield is different per strain and per grower. 
2.) Heat was never an issue with my setup dramatically less than my 400HID threw off. 4-5-10 degrees less on average. depending on full light daytime nighttime and height of the lamp... the closer to the exaust the less heat reached my control unit... i used a control unit to adjust heat/cool/light/humidity. set it forget it.
3.) Why? your wasting money on led using this method these bulbs BLOW LED AWAY!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 15, 2011)

Any of you have any comparison of these vs Airpots?

http://shop.geoplanter.com/GeoPot-Self-supporting-Geo-Pots_c2.htm


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 16, 2011)

[video=youtube;S1nFnr0HA5I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1nFnr0HA5I[/video]


Lucius Vorenus said:


> Any of you have any comparison of these vs Airpots?
> 
> http://shop.geoplanter.com/GeoPot-Self-supporting-Geo-Pots_c2.htm


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## PROF XAVIER (Oct 16, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Strongly considering modding my 8-bulb setup with a plexiglass cage of some sort. I'll see what they have at the local stores and see what I can come up with. I have the SunStar HTG clone of the bad boy... very similar except the lights do not have switches and the ballasts are between instead of above so there's a gap... none the less, it's working pretty well, save for the fact that I have to be kind of careful about how close I let them get, as I have had a few burns and some wilting on hotter days. (Still dialing in exhaust system, but have been keeping things open air to compensate.)
> 
> Question, have you built one of these? I'm thinking that you'd want to hold the plexi off the bulbs a little... I'd like to seal it in with some good air flow, but wondering how far off the bulbs need to stay from the plexi to avoid the plexi heating up... I guess, with a good enclosure and a strong exhaust fan, you could have it almost right on the bulbs and still stay cool... thinking just shy of an inch, and then you have a unit that lets your plants get right up to the 1" distance without any risk of burn. I have an exhaust blower that I am hooking up tomorrow, but now I am thinking I might as well pipe it directly from a hood through a passive intake.


If you have a good fan....the bulbs can be an inch away from the Plexiglas. The melting point temp is much higher than the bulbs. I have used simple silicone for the creases and duct connectors from wood working equipment that's only 3". I can place my hand on the Plexiglas for a while and it feels cool to the touch


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## PROF XAVIER (Oct 16, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Strongly considering modding my 8-bulb setup with a plexiglass cage of some sort. I'll see what they have at the local stores and see what I can come up with. I have the SunStar HTG clone of the bad boy... very similar except the lights do not have switches and the ballasts are between instead of above so there's a gap... none the less, it's working pretty well, save for the fact that I have to be kind of careful about how close I let them get, as I have had a few burns and some wilting on hotter days. (Still dialing in exhaust system, but have been keeping things open air to compensate.)
> 
> Question, have you built one of these? I'm thinking that you'd want to hold the plexi off the bulbs a little... I'd like to seal it in with some good air flow, but wondering how far off the bulbs need to stay from the plexi to avoid the plexi heating up... I guess, with a good enclosure and a strong exhaust fan, you could have it almost right on the bulbs and still stay cool... thinking just shy of an inch, and then you have a unit that lets your plants get right up to the 1" distance without any risk of burn. I have an exhaust blower that I am hooking up tomorrow, but now I am thinking I might as well pipe it directly from a hood through a passive intake.


I built one in the past to compensate for summer heat and a weak a/c. I was impressed by the results as it lowered my temps in a tent by 10 degrees and sometimes more.


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## TechnoMage (Oct 16, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> For all those wanting the Air Pots heres the link
> _*http://www.airpotgarden.com/store/index.php?app=gbu0&ns=catshow&ref=airpot*_


I'm doing a Air-Pot vs Standard Pot grow now (*https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/465519-air-pot-vs-standard-pot.html*)


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## PetFlora (Oct 16, 2011)

One of the ballasts in my BB is making a vibrating noise. Any ideas as to what I should do?


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## novice11 (Oct 16, 2011)

Well, one of my new Red Suns just went to like half power, it is now a dull red instead of bright. So of the 2 new ones, one came DOA and was replaced, and now another one is "sick". 

As I still have 2 working Red Suns (I already had another one in) I think I am going to replace the faulty Red Sun with a Coral Wave. This will give my 8 bulb setup the following:

Fiji (#1) / Coral Wave (#1) / 454 / Red Sun (#1) / Fiji (#2) / Coral Wave (#2) / Red Sun (#2) / Fiji (#3). Total 3 Fiji, 2 Red Sun, 2 Coral Wave and the 454. This is for Bloom. For my next Veg I will pull out 1 Coral Wave for a 420 Actinic and pull out a Red Sun for 75.25.

Any thoughts on swapping out the faulty #3 Red Sun for a 2nd Coral Wave, pr0fesseur?


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## Myles117 (Oct 16, 2011)

sometimes bulbs will act "sick" when its a ballast prob, have you tried putting another bulb in that same spot to see if it functions fine or if its doing the same thing.


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## novice11 (Oct 16, 2011)

Yes the spot is fine it is the bulb.


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## Myles117 (Oct 16, 2011)

that sucks, sorry that happened to ya. The company should replace it though? I would think they would as it is so new.

my two sun reds are going great still. I've had em running for bout 3 days now


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## Triplezero1 (Oct 16, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> 1.) If you read my thread i stated frequently my experiment was not about yield. and is impossible to quantify yield when measuring just the lights capability to grow.. too many variables to make an accurate statement. yield is different per strain and per grower.
> 2.) Heat was never an issue with my setup dramatically less than my 400HID threw off. 4-5-10 degrees less on average. depending on full light daytime nighttime and height of the lamp... the closer to the exaust the less heat reached my control unit... i used a control unit to adjust heat/cool/light/humidity. set it forget it.
> 3.) Why? your wasting money on led using this method these bulbs BLOW LED AWAY!


 First of all...I agree with what you have done using aquarium bulbs! I'm in no way trying to insult you, so calm down. And yes I agree there are different variables when talking about yield, just wanted a rough figure, thats all. I built a custom enclosure that is 6' wide 3' deep & 7' tall, then split it into 2 flowering chambers to get a perpetual grow. It has a jumbo 180 per side as well as 4' T5 side lighting all around. Not much on power savings but heat savings are unbelievable. I personally go for quality when growing and my led's work fantastic. I was just thinking on adding some of these lights instead of my blue & red T5's. Just jumped to aeroponics so I was going to set everything up from scratch.


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## ^NoR*[email protected] (Oct 16, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> fiji
> 454
> UVL 75.25
> Fiji


Thanks Pr0fesseur! keep up the good work!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 16, 2011)

TechnoMage said:


> I'm doing a Air-Pot vs Standard Pot grow now (*https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/465519-air-pot-vs-standard-pot.html*)


 Thanks i look forward to watching +REP +SUB


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 16, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> that sucks, sorry that happened to ya. The company should replace it though? I would think they would as it is so new.
> 
> my two sun reds are going great still. I've had em running for bout 3 days now


YUP REPLACE IT! get your money back...


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 16, 2011)

Where are you guys buying your Fijis? Aquarium specialty just jacked the price to $32!!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 16, 2011)

http://www.quantumhort.com/quantum-triphosphor-lamps.html

I'd be curious to know what the Spectrum look like on their lamps.


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## Myles117 (Oct 16, 2011)

cant wait to put in the 4 more sun reds that are arriving tuesday


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## blazedapurp (Oct 16, 2011)

Wssup pr0 im new to riu and i wil be starting my first grow soon. I have a 4' 4 54w tek light fixture that i had on one of my reef tanks. Right now in this fixture I have 3 blue plus (one is a spare), 1 aquablue special, and a 12000k actinic white (50/50). Can i use any of these bulbs to veg? Or should i get rid of them all and go with this set up (fiji, 454, UVL 75.25, Fiji) that u recommended to another person? And is my fixture good enough to veg and flower 2 plants?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 17, 2011)

Well my plants out grew the space I had for them to veg in so..... it's off to the UC system for 8 of um' to flower. 
I still have 2 mothers under the t5's along with 2 extras, I think I'm going to veg these for another 2 months and see what kind of weight I can pull from these plant.

On a side note I received another 8 lamp bb, after putting it together one of the bays will not fire =( I'm going to check the connections before I call to return it.... but it seems like everyone is having some kind of issue with there BB T5 fixtures.


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## AltarNation (Oct 17, 2011)

PROF XAVIER said:


> I have used simple silicone for the creases and duct connectors from wood working equipment that's only 3".


Hey X, thanks for your response... can you link me to an example of what kind of duct connector you are using? That was the part that stopped my progress on this project, I could not find a duct other than a 10x3 to 6" round conversion... and that obviously would still require further connecting to hook up to a big flat T5 unit. Wood working, I did not think of that... some sort of vaccuum collection ducting from a saw or something?? Really interested in what you've got, you could save me the trouble of setting up elsewhere during the warmer months!


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## PetFlora (Oct 17, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> that sucks, sorry that happened to ya. The company should replace it though? I would think they would as it is so new.
> 
> my two sun reds are going great still. I've had em running for bout 3 days now


One of my Red Suns/Red Lifes went belly up on the 3rd day. The other is fine. And here too, it is the bulb, not the ballast/socket.


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## Myles117 (Oct 17, 2011)

and have you contacted the seller to see about having it replaced? the bulbs are too expensive to be havin that shit happen.


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## PetFlora (Oct 17, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> http://www.quantumhort.com/quantum-triphosphor-lamps.html
> 
> I'd be curious to know what the Spectrum look like on their lamps.


MelloKitty sent them to me in a PDF, and I can't figure out how to transfer into a file that I can post. The grow bulb has a decent spectrum. Small 420 peak with a big blue range- small green peak and a small red. The Bloom is not too good, most due to only being 2900K. If it was 10-12K it would be good. For the small price difference toward UVLs/ Wave Tech Coral waves, I see no point. Alas, I bought 8 each Quantums prior to be schooled by the Pr0f. kiss-asshth


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## PetFlora (Oct 17, 2011)

*UnderCurrentDWC:* Very professional set up. 

*BB*: Try adjusting the bulbs. I find the distance between the female recepticals is a bit to long, making it hard to get the bulb pins to make a solid connection. Also, I have to turn the light on/off to check. Simply making a proper connection does not automatically make the light go on. hth


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## organicbynature (Oct 17, 2011)

This was a very interesting thread! It makes perfect sense. I think I will try this for my next lighting purchase.

Right now I'm settling into a Magnum Plus LED panel in a 4x4 tent with a single T5 attached vertically in each corner. They've got the default grow tubes that they came with right now, but I wonder if I should switch them for actinics or another aquarium T5. Coral Waves maybe? Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

The Mag Plus has: *"11 dialed in spectrums* emitted through PAR AMP lens configurations essential for big bud production! (420nm/439nm/469nm/483nm/3000k-3500k/642nm/667nm/680nm/720nm)"

I'm not sure what the exact ratios are, but it's got 4 rows of blues and whites (17-18 and 5-6 respectively, per row) and 6 rows of reds with a total of 7 UV LEDs mixed in to the red rows.

Seems like Prof did a pretty good job on his T5 spectrum, going by this.

I'm really curious to see how the color of light put out by these T5 arrangements compares to the Mag-Plus. They look quite similar from where I'm sitting. Could get a lot of this T5 wattage for the price of this LED panel.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 17, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> MelloKitty sent them to me in a PDF, and I can't figure out how to transfer into a file that I can post. The grow bulb has a decent spectrum. Small 420 peak with a big blue range- small green peak and a small red. The Bloom is not too good, most due to only being 2900K. If it was 10-12K it would be good. For the small price difference toward UVLs/ Wave Tech Coral waves, I see no point. Alas, I bought 8 each Quantums prior to be schooled by the Pr0f. kiss-asshth


Open the pdf and use snipping tool !!! or if you have a mac use command+shift+4
If your too stoned use 
http://pdf.my-addr.com/free-online-pdf-to-tiff-convert.php


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 17, 2011)

blazedapurp said:


> Wssup pr0 im new to riu and i wil be starting my first grow soon. I have a 4' 4 54w tek light fixture that i had on one of my reef tanks. Right now in this fixture I have 3 blue plus (one is a spare), 1 aquablue special, and a 12000k actinic white (50/50). Can i use any of these bulbs to veg? Or should i get rid of them all and go with this set up (fiji, 454, UVL 75.25, Fiji) that u recommended to another person? And is my fixture good enough to veg and flower 2 plants?


Use the blue and the 12k and 2 fiji's you should be good!


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## hyroot (Oct 17, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *UnderCurrentDWC:* Very professional set up.
> 
> *BB*: Try adjusting the bulbs. I find the distance between the female recepticals is a bit to long, making it hard to get the bulb pins to make a solid connection. Also, I have to turn the light on/off to check. Simply making a proper connection does not automatically make the light go on. hth


I had the same problem with 2 of my bulbs. the wiring was fine. i just bent the recepticals a little at one end and its been good. I can even hit my head on it when I stand up and the bulbs stay on every time that happens or even when it rocks.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 17, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Where are you guys buying your Fijis? Aquarium specialty just jacked the price to $32!!


Go back a few pages i posted some more links try reef geek and reef depot and http://www.aquasythe.com/Products/KZ-Fiji-Purple-High-Output-T5-Lamps-by-Korallen-Zucht__LT-KZ-FP.aspx


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 17, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *UnderCurrentDWC:* Very professional set up.
> 
> *BB*: Try adjusting the bulbs. I find the distance between the female recepticals is a bit to long, making it hard to get the bulb pins to make a solid connection. Also, I have to turn the light on/off to check. Simply making a proper connection does not automatically make the light go on. hth


Again the BB lights.. Check all of your connections.. open her up UNPLUGGED and check all connectors.. they dont wire them very well. I would prefer soldering to join all connections.. but alas everythings made in china!


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## cannawizard (Oct 17, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 1101487View attachment 1101488View attachment 1101489View attachment 1101490View attachment 1101491
> So when i decided to grow i started with a 400W hps and MH conversion bulb. I put up my tent and it was problem after problem. With the generous help from the people here i decided to throw away my setup and start from scratch. I purchased the Quantum Badboy 8 lamp T5. I started with the standard 6500k bulbs with some success. I wanted to buy an LED light but didnt have the money. So... i was at my buddies house and he has a LARGE aquarium and he showed me his bulbs..it clicked.. corals need light too and his lights produced the EXACT spectrum corals need to live and are capable of penetrating 3'+ of water. well corals and plants are very similar as they use the EXACT same light spectrum. Digging deeper i found bulbs that produce 410-460nm and 620-660 nm light.. That is also Exactly what LEDs put out..now putting one plus one together i decided to do a small test.. i bought 2 2' t5 lights ATI AND UVL Blue plus and Super Actinic. Explosive growth followed. i couldent believe my eyes. I was told on 4 different forums that actinic bulbs DO NOT WORK FOR plants boy were they really wrong!. i ahve since gone 100% T5 with various bulbs producing only yhe light spectrum that plants need. As you can see my plants are doing AMAZING for being grown with Actinic bulbs.2 of my bulbs are missing as they were broken upon arrrival. I will be changing out some of the blue bulbs with the deep red ones i found for flowering..they produce ONLY 630-660nm light. no other spectrum so i get 100% PAR. top that with MH...now i know what your thinking these lights are not bright at all... well its not about lumens.the human eye response isView attachment 1101463photosynthetic is View attachment 1101468, so your eyes do not see ALL the light these bulbs output. hardcore believers will flame me but let the math and the facts be known.HPS BULBS View attachment 1101469 Anyone notice a pattern here???? Lumens are not the ending factor to bud growth or you could not grow with LED. my sample grow i netted 1oz on a plant with only 116w. If your still in disbelief consider this, chect the spectrum charts for your coveted 3000k bulbs and overlay it with your chlorophyll response charts.. youll notice MOST of the light these bulbs prodice is outside the chloraphyll A+B peaks... now place the spectrums of my lights and overlay them...100% match.. seems to me im doing something right?


**excellent read, --subd


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 17, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> **excellent read, --subd


Welcome Welcome! thanks for stopping by and allow me to impart a little knowledge upon thee! lol
Lemme know if you need anything! ask any questions u like, take a look in my albums and my community or what exists of it..


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 17, 2011)

Seems the Badboys are having some Quality Control issues. Can someone recommend a next step up in brand? I'm using the Home Depot lights right now and they seem OK thusfar but they come on at full power and im sure that's hard on the bulbs.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 17, 2011)

http://www.amazon.com/Wavepoint-High-Output-Retrofit-4x54w/dp/B003I5ZQSU


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 17, 2011)

http://cgi.ebay.com/TRIDONIC-PCA-2-x-54w-DIGITAL-DIMMABLE-BALLAST-DSI-ECO-/250847573742?pt=UK_BOI_Lights_Lighting_ET&hash=item3a67ae36ee#ht_544wt_1185[/url]
http://www.icecapinc.com/430-fluorescent-lamp-electronic-ballast-2
icecap are the best money can buy...
Lamp holders for those DIYers out there!
Aquatic life ballast kit...
http://www.marinedepot.com/AquaticLife_54W_4_Lamp_T5HO_Ballast_Kit_(without_Lamps)_T5_PC_VHO_Fluorescent_Aquarium_Ballasts-AquaticLife-AK01212-FILTACBAFL-AK01216-vi.html
http://cgi.ebay.com/ARCADIA-ULTRASEAL-T5-WATERPROOF-LAMPHOLDERS-IP67-ABT5LL-/250842213171?pt=UK_Pet_Supplies_Fish&hash=item3a675c6b33#ht_500wt_1202


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## PetFlora (Oct 18, 2011)

My big plant is now ~ 48" tall X 30"+ circumference (shaped like a christmas tree), with bazillions of bud sites. I am running out of height to raise my fixture. No way to take a pic from the top, though that would be awesome. 

Aq Specialties still does not have UVL Super Actinic, but they have all my other bulbs. After a bit of shopping around for the UVL Super Actinics (with reflector), Marine wants $20 handling charge + shipping; others you have to call to get shipping, so I decided to go with 2 ATI True Actinics (non reflector), close enough for hand-grenades. All being shipped from Aq Specialties, so I save a bunch of money with one shipping charge. They finally got 2 Red Lifes in (one a N/C replacement), so I grabbed the other one, just in case another one dies.

Hopefully I will have them by Friday. I need more red/far red and the Quantum Blooms ain't cutting it.

BTW, the file MelloKitty sent me is Word, not PDF. Also, I have a Dell Dudes. Does that change anything?


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## organicbynature (Oct 18, 2011)

Nobody has had a suggestion yet for the single T5s in the corners of my Mag-Plus tent, but upon further reflection I'm thinking the Fiji's might be the bulb to use, as the Mag-Plus has a pretty comprehensive spectrum and so it makes sense to add more to the "base" colors.

But having read through this entire thread the other day, I see that the spectrum graph believed to be for the Fiji's is actually for another bulb that is no longer produced. What makes us think at this point that the Fiji is worth the money? Is anyone leaning towards a different "base" bulb with the uncertainty surrounding the Fiji's spectrum?


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## Myles117 (Oct 18, 2011)

i use 3000ks as my base and super actinic and sun reds to boost. thats a base for a flowering room though.

professor, i got 6 sun reds, 2 super actinics and 6 3000k in my flowering room now....is that a good mix for flowering? I dont plan on having veggers in the room at all so thats why i am leaning more towards the orange/red spectrum.


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> http://www.amazon.com/Wavepoint-High-Output-Retrofit-4x54w/dp/B003I5ZQSU



I just seen those in person. They are sick but way out of my price range... Maybe after I win the lotto


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Nobody has had a suggestion yet for the single T5s in the corners of my Mag-Plus tent, but upon further reflection I'm thinking the Fiji's might be the bulb to use, as the Mag-Plus has a pretty comprehensive spectrum and so it makes sense to add more to the "base" colors.
> 
> But having read through this entire thread the other day, I see that the spectrum graph believed to be for the Fiji's is actually for another bulb that is no longer produced. What makes us think at this point that the Fiji is worth the money? Is anyone leaning towards a different "base" bulb with the uncertainty surrounding the Fiji's spectrum?


I've been braining out on side lighting too. I'm thinking of mounting 4ft 2 bulbs n the sides with a fiji and coral wave on each

link to graph
http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html


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## Myles117 (Oct 18, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I just seen those in person. They are sick but way out of my price range... Maybe after I win the lotto


whats so great bout that setup? just seems like an overpriced t5 fixture to me but surely im missing something?


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## organicbynature (Oct 18, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I've been braining out on side lighting too. I'm thinking of mounting 4ft 2 bulbs n the sides with a fiji and coral wave on each
> 
> link to graph
> http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html


400+ watts, that's some serious side-lighting (at least if you're in a 4x4 like me)! 

Have you thought at all about 2 or 3 footers for the corners instead? I feel like they might be a little more optimal height-wise, but then they basically cost the same as the 4 footers...Or are you even running them vertically?

Find a good deal somewhere for 2 bulb fixtures?


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> whats so great bout that setup? just seems like an overpriced t5 fixture to me but surely im missing something?


they are made for aquariums. they have much better sockets and reflector. but the largest they make is a 4 bulb. It does come with decent bulbs too. No temperamental issues like the badboy. but Im still sticking with the bad boy or maybe htg's version. much more affordable. the badboys are the only ones that run on a 240v. have great reflectors too. just got to go over it before you hang it.

http://www.wave-point.com/Lighting_folder/RetrofitKitMain.html


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## Myles117 (Oct 18, 2011)

oh okay, thanks. i have a few dif reflector brands in my arsennal (a hydrofarm, 2 new waves and one sunblaze) and have never had probs with any of em cept one of the new waves had a ballast fail recently but the thing was bout 5 years old. I have heard many people have probs with those badboy fixtures but they bout 5 bucks cheaper then the ones i have so not surprised they are as bit more tempermental


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> 400+ watts, that's some serious side-lighting (at least if you're in a 4x4 like me)!
> 
> Have you thought at all about 2 or 3 footers for the corners instead? I feel like they might be a little more optimal height-wise, but then they basically cost the same as the 4 footers...Or are you even running them vertically?
> 
> Find a good deal somewhere for 2 bulb fixtures?



Im not using a 4x4 im using a little bit bigger. I have t5 and 1000w. Im replacing the 1k probably with a 12 bulb 2 8 bulbs isnt enough cover what I need. eventually i plan on running th 2 bulbs on each wall

the best deal I found for a 4ft 2 bulb is $49.95 plus shipping at HTG
http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-HTG-Supply-4-Foot-2-Lamp-High-Output-T5-Fixture.asp


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## Myles117 (Oct 18, 2011)

htg is def the cheapest for fixtures. i have a couple lil single bulb fixtures from them


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 18, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> i use 3000ks as my base and super actinic and sun reds to boost. thats a base for a flowering room though.
> 
> professor, i got 6 sun reds, 2 super actinics and 6 3000k in my flowering room now....is that a good mix for flowering? I dont plan on having veggers in the room at all so thats why i am leaning more towards the orange/red spectrum.


 Sounds good to me.. i dont put much faith in any of the 3Kk bulbs.. a waste of money IMHO i would get the reef wave instead of 3000k if your gonna flower only.. and you should be golden..


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 18, 2011)

The BadBoys are the only ones i knowof that make a 16 bulb version!!!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 19, 2011)

*[video=youtube;xzE-I3ad6_w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzE-I3ad6_w[/video]​*


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## Myles117 (Oct 19, 2011)

sry for the lame question but what media is that? looks like rockwool but white? never seen that around here


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 19, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> sry for the lame question but what media is that? looks like rockwool but white? never seen that around here


It's STG (Sure-to-grow) Hail. 
I would explain it like this, STG is to hydroton/rockwool like P.A.R. T5 lighting is to HID. 

STG is non-wicking, inert, Ph neutral your roots will grow right through it. I had to get it online no local hydro store carries it, one of the guys told me they carried it a while back and people complained about salt build up, I bought "Drip Clean" by House & Garden to prevent this, the hydro store guy also said the locals where so use to using rockwool and hydroton that it's hard to get them to buy into a new product... since this is my first go at hydro I figured why not try it out! 
So far I really like using it, I've cloned from cuttings in it, it is super fast to pot a net cup, they say it's reusable but I would only reuse the stuff on the top and throw away what the roots have worked themselves through. 
It cost's the same or less than rockwool. Rockwool is actually hazardous to humans that's why they wrap it in plastic and should only be handled wet. 
You should give it a try, STG also comes in blocks, mats and any size net pot insert you currently use. They have a 1/2 off sale on the Hail product.... I'd also like to try their tornado inset for the 6"x4.75" net pots.

[video=youtube;EKzqa8X4qOo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKzqa8X4qOo[/video]
[video=youtube;pmOmViRxbgY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmOmViRxbgY&feature=related[/video]
[video=youtube;wDwG4qbqhKc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDwG4qbqhKc&feature=related[/video]​

Happy growing
UCDWC~


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## Myles117 (Oct 19, 2011)

glad i asked!!!  im only growing in soil right now but would love to try this stuff (i hate rockwool because of the need to presoak and prep it to neutralize its natural ph)

i would like to try it exclusively for rooting clones tho.. do they come in plug sizes?


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## PetFlora (Oct 19, 2011)

Bulbs will be here tomorrow. Plant is now 48"+ tall with multiple calyxes beginning to form. Will take a snap shot and post so others can watch bud development
 
Looking for suggestion for configuring 8 bulb with the following

2 Wave Tech Coral Waves 2 Red Lifes, 2 ATI Super Actinics and either; 2 Aqua Suns or 2 Quantum Grow (6500) or 2 Quantum Bloom (2900K)

Thinking 

1/8 Quantum Gs (6500K) or UVL Aqua Suns with reflectors
2/7 Coral Waves 
3/6 ATI Super Actinic 
4/5 UVL Red Life


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 19, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> glad i asked!!! , i would like to try it exclusively for rooting clones tho.. do they come in plug sizes?


Yes, I think they are called clipper cloner inserts.


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## Myles117 (Oct 19, 2011)

i ordered two sheets of cubes 

im curious as to how its gunna go as far as watering them/keeping them the proper moisture level as they dont wick. maybe a light top watering daily or a bit less. 

right now im rooting in a tray of perlite and vermiculite and i have swelling of stems already and its only been a few days.


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## hyroot (Oct 19, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> glad i asked!!!  im only growing in soil right now but would love to try this stuff (i hate rockwool because of the need to presoak and prep it to neutralize its natural ph)
> 
> i would like to try it exclusively for rooting clones tho.. do they come in plug sizes?



Rockwool sucks its spun rock and when dry its like espestos.It changes the flavor. Rapid Rooters is the best way to go. Its made from tree bark and its ph balanced. I swear shit grows much quicker with those. I use them for my clones then drop them into soil. I don't soak them at all. after i put em in the tray i just pour some tea into the tray.


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## Myles117 (Oct 19, 2011)

what tea do you use? i dont usually feed em at all till they have some roots on em.


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## hyroot (Oct 19, 2011)

well when you use rapid rooters, or plugs, or rockwool. you have to keep them moist. i use an insert with the square holes. set the clones in that and set the insert in a tray. then they have to stay moist or what ever. I just use the guano tea that I make for my veg. i dilute it a little for the clones. You can't burn them with tea. they like it. I used to use just liquid karma. ever since i ran out of it I haven't bought it again. using either I have roots in 7 days. oh the rapid rooters root fast too.


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## hyroot (Oct 19, 2011)

under nice video. kind of an appropriate song too


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 19, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Bulbs will be here tomorrow. Plant is now 48"+ tall with multiple calyxes beginning to form. Will take a snap shot and post so others can watch bud development
> 
> Looking for suggestion for configuring 8 bulb with the following
> 
> ...


Your gonna want 60/40 red/blue...the 2900k are yellow.... that really doesent help... actinics will stunt growth and prevent stretching... too much red and its all stretch...


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## Kaptain Kron (Oct 19, 2011)

so what did you end up doing myles? Im not a big fan of that STG, never really liked the concept for some reason, i may look into it again though as i've been lookin at alternatives to hydroton, i like it but its expensive and i got enough for a while but eventually im going to replace it because roots grow into it still. =(

Ill keep an eye on your progress with those, and update your thread you ho, lol i learned more about whats goin on in here than in your thread lol.

Hows it growin prof, hows everything doin. I got an itch to do a t5 flower... problem is my fixture is at the moment busy keepin my mothers alive lol. -_- i guess ill just settle for my panels til i can do a comparo when i can get another fixture.

hey uc, the tea you are using to root your clones with is that the heisenburg tea? i use that for root rot, can i use it as my cloning solution too? Cuz i will just lop off a 12 incher and pop it into a DIY bubble cloner with the tea and see if it works if thats what you be using good sir. 

Im currently on the hunt for somthing i can use in my hydro systems as a tea where ingredients i use are all the same but brew time changes from veg-flower but i dont know enough about teas yet im still trying to do the research foot work. Ive got the compost pile built and waiting for it to compost and im about to order up an EWC tray. I'd like to go all organic hydro like that, my next setup when i get the tinker time is going to be a aquaponics aka guppy ponics setup. Sounds like fun. Nice root porn in that vid BTW looked sexy


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 19, 2011)

http://blujay.com/item/Myco-Blast-Mycorrhizae-soil-bacteria-8-stick-11090706-3645546
Add one to fresh room temp water add Unsulphered molasas/ or my fave pure rock turbinado and bubble 24-48 hours
you can make 50 gals all at once! and use a Seed sock... panyhose with some of this in it and a medium for it to cling to...i use some spagnum or a natural sponge...
My teas are for biology only i then add nutes to the teas for feeding...


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## grapeoptimo (Oct 19, 2011)

what do you think of this http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-48-216W-T5-AQUARIUM-LIGHT-FIXTURE-REEF-FISH-TANK-/130589752772?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e67c17dc4#ht_5241wt_923


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## PetFlora (Oct 20, 2011)

*Cpt Kron/et al, * 

*CLONES:* In the past I mostly started from seeds, in either S2G or RW Starter Cubes. I would hand water until the second leaf set, then move into a DIY bubbler. I was not crazy about the results, often losing 30-50% due to too much moisture. I cut the cubes in half, which helped some. I decided to order Sunleaves Super Starter Cubes (SSSCs), but neglected to start these plants in them. The seeds came from a friend's brother, but I could not get any strain or genetic info, so I named them *Brother's Keeper. *The BK plant that survived my HPA fiasco, I call BK-1. Thankfully, it's a female. 

BK-1 is much bigger than any strains I have grown. She is taller/wider, with tons of long side branches, so I took 4 small clones, then a week later, she was twice as tall, so I took 7 more clones. These were cut after the 3rd node. 

*The first 4:* Three were put directly into neoprene pucks and hung over my DIY bubbler. One clone was placed in a SSSCs (looks identical to Root Riot): all 4 have rooted, and been moved into my HPA rig. 

A week later, I took 7 more clones. Four were placed directly into neoprene pucks, then placed inside a PVC coupler and hung over the bubbles; the other 3 were placed in SSSCs. All clones are healthy (no wilt), I can see root knuckles on the clones hanging in air, so it's too soon to see roots popping outside the SSSCs, but again, all are healthy. 

Some of these will go into HPA, others F & D and others Air Pots as a test to see which performs best. hth


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## PetFlora (Oct 20, 2011)

*Blue Actinic Question? *Should they be used throughout the grow or just during early veg and late flower?


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## PetFlora (Oct 20, 2011)

My bulbs are here. MY BULBS ARE HERE! 

It's truly amazing how different the green leafs appear.

Here' s a shot of BK-1 in early bud, prior to installing the new bulbs. so all can follow along as she fattens up. Hopefully, I can finally earn my UN on other sites-* PhatNuggz*

BK-1 now >50", but more importantly, loaded with side branches and bud sites. I hope the bloom bulbs slow her growth down as I can't raise the fixture any higher. 



The tiny bleaching on one leaf is burn. I try to keep the bulbs within 4" of the plant, but she has been growing so fast that within a few hours she can get within burn zone.


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## Myles117 (Oct 20, 2011)

bloom bulbs make plants stretch taller lol fuckin bend that main top to one side with some supercroppin or LST n she will explode from her side branches


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## cannawizard (Oct 20, 2011)

--these chicks like it rough 



Myles117 said:


> bloom bulbs make plants stretch taller lol fuckin bend that main top to one side with some supercroppin or LST n she will explode from her side branches


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## Myles117 (Oct 20, 2011)

looking at that crease makes my dick hurt. SNAP!!!! lmao


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## cannawizard (Oct 20, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> looking at that crease makes my dick hurt. SNAP!!!! lmao


**thats gonna be another quote under Kron's sig.. rofl


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## Myles117 (Oct 20, 2011)

hahahhaha quite plausable


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 20, 2011)

hyroot said:


> well when you use rapid rooters, or plugs, or rockwool. you have to keep them moist. i use an insert with the square holes. set the clones in that and set the insert in a tray. then they have to stay moist or what ever. I just use the guano tea that I make for my veg. i dilute it a little for the clones. You can't burn them with tea. they like it. I used to use just liquid karma. ever since i ran out of it I haven't bought it again. using either I have roots in 7 days. oh the rapid rooters root fast too.


How do you make this?


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> How do you make this?



*TEA????*


*
Usually I aerate the water for a day or 2 then I add molasses ( 1 tbsp per gal ) and aerate for another hour. The molasses neutralizes the chlorine and chloramine. 

Then I add guano 
VEG** .............................1/2 cup peruvian seabird and 1/2 mexican bat. 
EARLY FLOWER...... 1/3 cup peruvian seabird and 2/3 cup jamaican bat,
LATE FLOWER .........1/3 cup peruvian seabird and 2/3 cup indonesian bat. 

to all 3 - 1/2 cup ancient forest humus (used to use ewc ) 
dr. earth seaweed concentrate or grow more kelp meal
grow more dolomite lime

aerate for another day and half
feed full strength no diluting

A few times when I've been out of stuff and not a lot of money, I used earth juice rainbow mix grow 5-5-2 and bloom 0-9-2 and primal harvest 0-12-1 and aerate that at same ratios. Everything else is already in it. When I have used that I actually saw a lot more crystals. Something in the earth juice seems to combat PM too. 

**CLONES: 2 red party cups of VEG TEA =4 cups, 1 red party cup of aerated water = 2 cups. then pour into tray.


recipe for 5 gallons

*


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 20, 2011)

so you're using that rather than any Nutes? I know shit about tea. Did I read Humus?????


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## Myles117 (Oct 20, 2011)

the ingrediants such as guanos and concentrates are the nutrients. its the more hands on do it yourself way of mixing up nutes for your plants.

shows basic method to make tea.


[video=youtube;SMaAJ3nHPLs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMaAJ3nHPLs[/video]


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## Tyler123 (Oct 20, 2011)

What has happened to this thread? So are we getting good results with our T5s? Really results is what we want or should want.


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## Myles117 (Oct 20, 2011)

im having excellent results with my super actinics and sun reds  ill have pics up in the next few days


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> so you're using that rather than any Nutes? I know shit about tea. Did I read Humus?????



thats all I feed them
Ancient forest humus or earth worm casting which both produce humic acid and that's where most of the beneficial bacteria and fungi comes from.guano produces some good bacteria too.

its humus from decomposing forest litter. Not hummus the levantine arab dip or spread for pita bread or flatbread


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2011)

Day 14 of flower. I love how they are always perky and never droop. I'd say they are developing about 5 days ahead or faster than ones under 1000w. Ive had to raise the light 4 times in the last 2 weeks


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## Mrharold (Oct 20, 2011)

Way too high to comprehend this now, but when i sober up this'll probably blow my fucking mind


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## ohiogrown03 (Oct 20, 2011)

these were what i brought back indoor from about 5 or 6 weeks ago, i transplanted one, and left the other in dirt. obviously the non transpanted one is doing better. Sorry for the awkard pics, i just the other day arranged this lighting, going to try it for a week or so and see how it goes, i did just have it about 2" away from tops. 

when i brought them in they were starting to flower outside and about 8 inches tall with a total of 10-15 leaves a piece, really rough condition, got no attention but survived that long anyway. when i brought them in, i cut off the top buds and transplanted one to hydro. this is what they look like after about 5 weeks. the soil one is really a beast i think, it's bushy as hell, i trimmed up a few of the bottom stuff that was starting to grow, but i think i might wait another week or two and try to get some clones off of the soil one. i'm thinking maybe another month of veg for that one, what do you think? i'm building one of the bubble cloners and thats what i plan to put cutting in.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 20, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Blue Actinic Question? *Should they be used throughout the grow or just during early veg and late flower?


well again 60/40 r/g for bloom
vice versa for grow 
these are just for base...remember fiji's have some of the actinic in them.. you could do just fiji and red sun... maybe a single full spectrum for completeness,.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 20, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> these were what i brought back indoor from about 5 or 6 weeks ago, i transplanted one, and left the other in dirt. obviously the non transpanted one is doing better. Sorry for the awkard pics, i just the other day arranged this lighting, going to try it for a week or so and see how it goes, i did just have it about 2" away from tops.
> 
> when i brought them in they were starting to flower outside and about 8 inches tall with a total of 10-15 leaves a piece, really rough condition, got no attention but survived that long anyway. when i brought them in, i cut off the top buds and transplanted one to hydro. this is what they look like after about 5 weeks. the soil one is really a beast i think, it's bushy as hell, i trimmed up a few of the bottom stuff that was starting to grow, but i think i might wait another week or two and try to get some clones off of the soil one. i'm thinking maybe another month of veg for that one, what do you think? i'm building one of the bubble cloners and thats what i pan to put cutting in.


Amazing job there glad to see everything working for you she looks great extremely healthy looking! keep everything coming along and please try to note any significant differences in your grow.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 20, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Day 14 of flower. I love how they are always perky and never droop. I'd say they are developing about 5 days ahead or faster than ones under 1000w. Ive had to raise the light 4 times in the last 2 weeks
> 
> 
> View attachment 1847772
> View attachment 1847776View attachment 1847777


to all the non believers ... now you know what my tent ALWAYS looks like! isnt the difference like night and day?


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 20, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> My bulbs are here. MY BULBS ARE HERE!
> 
> It's truly amazing how different the green leafs appear.
> 
> ...




you could bend her gently right where that piece of wood interects... just gently squeeze the stem all the way around ever so slightly and eventually shell lean over without breaking the stem, you just have to soften it up...then that main stem will grow buds from each node!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 20, 2011)

grapeoptimo said:


> what do you think of this http://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-48-216W-T5-AQUARIUM-LIGHT-FIXTURE-REEF-FISH-TANK-/130589752772?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e67c17dc4#ht_5241wt_923


those are fine.... jsut get very limited beam on them...you will have to place plants DIRECTLY under them...


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## PetFlora (Oct 21, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> bloom bulbs make plants stretch taller lol fuckin bend that main top to one side with some supercroppin or LST n she will explode from her side branches



So you can you imagine how wild it is to watch this plant (gifted seeds from a brother of a commercial grower, don't have any clues about the pheno) grow like a mofo under Grow bulbs: Quantum Grow + 2 UVL Aqua Suns (total of 4 bulbs). When I flipped to 12/12, I added 2 Red Sun/Life, but one went belly up (total of 6 bulbs), so I replaced the Aqua Suns and one bad Red Life with Quantum Blooms , which suck, but it's what I had , and still she grew 2"+ /day (total 8 bulbs). Keep in mind I placed my bulb order 3 weeks ago, and still wound up not getting the UVL with reflectors. 

Haven't been in to see her this morning, but bending is inevitable.


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## hyroot (Oct 21, 2011)

Prof.. I came up on 2 coral waves. For free. I have a 6 bulb hydrofarm in my veg with basic 6500 bulbs. Do you think the waves would be good to use for adding red? Even though its more infrared red. They stretch a lot more under that t5 rather than when I vegged under a 400 hps. They r were real bushy under that light. I want to add red to stop the stretching in veg.


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## AltarNation (Oct 21, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> What has happened to this thread? So are we getting good results with our T5s? Really results is what we want or should want.


Seems like lots of people are getting good results. Not a lot of photo evidence, but a lot of word of mouth going, and a few pics to boot. I'm a newb so I have nothing to compare to, but mine are growing great. I was waiting for significant flower development before pics, which has definitely started to occur now! I'll take some next watering.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 21, 2011)

the coral waves will add light the plants will actually use... the far red is what i have in my pro color..


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 21, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Seems like lots of people are getting good results. Not a lot of photo evidence, but a lot of word of mouth going, and a few pics to boot. I'm a newb so I have nothing to compare to, but mine are growing great. I was waiting for significant flower development before pics, which has definitely started to occur now! I'll take some next watering.


Pics will start coming in.. we have seen PLENTY of results from petflora and DWC... no one is in late flower yet and thats when we will see actual documentation week by week


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## AltarNation (Oct 21, 2011)

Here's 18 days into flower... I call them Beginner's Lucky 7... my first time, lucked out and got seven out of seven ladies from bagseed... this is T5 with a mix of the bulbs recommended so far. I could have gone farther towards red, but didn't want to spend any more. Maybe next time. In the mean time, how does this look for 18 days into flower?

Pics:


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 21, 2011)

Looks great AlterNation!

Oh... your the one who bought up all the blues!!!!! J/K =P


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 21, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Here's 18 days into flower... I call them Beginner's Lucky 7... my first time, lucked out and got seven out of seven ladies from bagseed... this is T5 with a mix of the bulbs recommended so far. I could have gone farther towards red, but didn't want to spend any more. Maybe next time. In the mean time, how does this look for 18 days into flower?
> 
> Pics:
> 
> View attachment 1848796View attachment 1848797View attachment 1848798View attachment 1848799View attachment 1848803View attachment 1848812View attachment 1848813


I dont know EVERYONE what do YOU think? lets hear some thought other than my own for once
BTW beautiful ladies !  those plants have such VIGOR! and life no drooping and very little thinning.. looks like no HID grow ive seen...


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## AltarNation (Oct 21, 2011)

Thanks!

You're looking at:

Fiji Purp
Super Actinic
Coral Wave
Red Life

On the other side I have a 75/25 in place of the super actinic... I rotate all plants from side to side each watering to keep even exposure and make up for the stupid gap in the middle of my fixture...


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## AltarNation (Oct 21, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I dont know EVERYONE what do YOU think? lets hear some thought other than my own for once
> BTW beautiful ladies !  those plants have such VIGOR! and life no drooping and very little thinning.. looks like no HID grow ive seen...


Thanks Pr0f, I think they look damn good my self but I wanted to be unbiased about my post, lol.

I feel really good about the whole thing... I've been diligent and careful each step of the way, and I trained them thoroughly early on so as to get a good canopy going. I had a couple heads ahead of the pack, but I went ahead and bent them right over and they are recovering nicely at an even height with the rest of the canopy.

I have a leaf that is larger than my hand that I took off the bottom of one of my LST'd ladies. In fact let me get a shot of this...


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 21, 2011)

Your doing well.. and your bulb seletion is good you have a great spectrum going.. amd those ladies are doing SUPER for a beginner.!
My first crop ended miserably! with so many issues i started from scratch growing with what commoon sense and a little forethought told me to do..
i should open my own store....
something to think about.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 21, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> and make up for the stupid gap in the middle of my fixture...


Did you buy the HTG supply T5?

edit:

Fiji Purp
Super Actinic
Coral Wave
Red Life
On the other side I have a 75/25

That's just about what I run.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 21, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Looks great AlterNation!
> 
> Oh... your the one who bought up all the blues!!!!! J/K =P


your ladies are also coming along and thanks for the plug in your video! it jsut goes to show that theres more to growing than just "you hvae to grow it this way or it wont work" mentality 







r MR Footclan being a douche, love you man i really do... but a STOCK nissan beat a STOCK ferrari 

11 cars and a nissan won suck it
http://www.wimp.com/dragrace/


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## Myles117 (Oct 21, 2011)

lmao someone drugged the ferrari driver....jusss sayin


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 21, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> your ladies are also coming along and thans for the pug in your video! or MR Footclan being a douche, love you man i really do... but a STOCK nissan beat a STOCK ferrari
> 
> 11 cars and a nissan won suck it
> http://www.wimp.com/dragrace/


lol Wait I'm lost....What the hell are you talking about? lol


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## Myles117 (Oct 21, 2011)

get this guy some weed!!!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 21, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> lol Wait I'm lost....What the hell are you talking about? lol


stoner rant


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## AltarNation (Oct 21, 2011)

Huge leaf with duality on primary leaflet, with some new clones taken before putting the others into flower:




Underside shots of LSTing:


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## AltarNation (Oct 21, 2011)

Re: UndercurrentDWC: Yeah it's the HTG one... ebay ad said "bad boy quantum" at the end of the title, even though the listing wasn't for one... and I didn't know exactly what it looked like... it was my fault for not thinking more about the picture before ordering, but I was in a hurry and the price was right. The whole fixture fell once because the hooks it hangs on are impermanent and come out a little too easily at certain angles. I lost a couple bulbs, but the fixture held up. All that aside, I guess it's working pretty well, although I hate that gap. I would get a regular bad boy if I were to get another.

On the upside, when I brought the ebay ad discrepancy to HTGSupply's attention, they acknowledged the mistake and made amends by sending me four free grow bulbs. Which, I, obviously, am not using... hahaha. Oh well. Still a nice gesture, and I have backup bulbs just in case.


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## hyroot (Oct 21, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Here's 18 days into flower... I call them Beginner's Lucky 7... my first time, lucked out and got seven out of seven ladies from bagseed... this is T5 with a mix of the bulbs recommended so far. I could have gone farther towards red, but didn't want to spend any more. Maybe next time. In the mean time, how does this look for 18 days into flower?
> 
> Pics:
> 
> View attachment 1848796View attachment 1848797View attachment 1848798View attachment 1848799View attachment 1848803View attachment 1848812View attachment 1848813




looks great and healthy. good work.


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## AltarNation (Oct 21, 2011)

Much thanks! I am a proud daddy.

I'm going by the book, so to speak... FoxFarm Ocean Forest Blend, with the usual three FoxFarm liquids and solids on their schedule by the book.


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## poind3xter (Oct 21, 2011)

I've been lurking this thread for awhile and just want to say thank you to pr0fesseur for the info and for being a pioneer with all this. I'm ready to take the leap myself and try this. I've got a 3/3 area that I can use with this fixture: http://htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-2-Foot-8-Lamp-High-Output-T5-With-Choice-of-Bulbs.asp. It's a 2x2 8-bulb T5HO setup. Can I even use this fixture? And if so what bulbs would you recommend for veg and flowering? This is what I was thinking:

Order of bulbs in veg
blue
purple
blue
red
purple
blue
red
blue

Order of bulbs in flower
red
purple
red
blue
purple
red
blue
red

Any advice? Thanks!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 22, 2011)

poind3xter said:


> I've been lurking this thread for awhile and just want to say thank you to pr0fesseur for the info and for being a pioneer with all this. I'm ready to take the leap myself and try this. I've got a 3/3 area that I can use with this fixture: http://htgsupply.com/Product-GrowBright-2-Foot-8-Lamp-High-Output-T5-With-Choice-of-Bulbs.asp. It's a 2x2 8-bulb T5HO setup. Can I even use this fixture? And if so what bulbs would you recommend for veg and flowering? This is what I was thinking:
> 
> Order of bulbs in veg
> blue
> ...


Yes you can use that fixture, yes you can get these bulbs in 2 foot I think you can still get the Ati pro color 660nm the professeur uses in the 2 foot length. The bulb order looks good. I include a ulv 75.25 during veg
Happy to see you interested in using the P.A.R T5 bulbs.

Happy growing
UCDWC~


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## Triplezero1 (Oct 22, 2011)

Is anybody running their ballasts remotely outside of the grow space to save on heat? I found a site that sells remote ballasts pre wired for HO T5's. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19811&cmpid=03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525426348
I'm re-configuring my setup and could use some input. I already own two jumbo 180 leds from prosource worldwide and they work great so I still want to use them. I plan to use the leds for top light but want to surround my space with these T5's everyone has been discussing. My flowering space is 6' wide X 3' deep X 7' tall & split in half (3x3x7) for a perpetual grow. So, I want to add some real kick ass side lighting. Any suggestions?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 22, 2011)

Triplezero1 said:


> . Any suggestions?


Get those lights up and post a pic!


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## AltarNation (Oct 22, 2011)

Triplezero1 said:


> Is anybody running their ballasts remotely outside of the grow space to save on heat? I found a site that sells remote ballasts pre wired for HO T5's. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19811&cmpid=03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525426348
> I'm re-configuring my setup and could use some input. I already own two jumbo 180 leds from prosource worldwide and they work great so I still want to use them. I plan to use the leds for top light but want to surround my space with these T5's everyone has been discussing. My flowering space is 6' wide X 3' deep X 7' tall & split in half (3x3x7) for a perpetual grow. So, I want to add some real kick ass side lighting. Any suggestions?


I think that remote ballasts would be a great way to go for side lighting. I am considering side-hanging my fixture but the vents for the ballasts are on top so I would have to make sure to cool it well. I probably won't hang it vertically until I've built a plexiglass hood to vent the heat like a cooltube.

I am considering eventually going with the vertical T5's on one or two walls, because my setup does not allow for a lot of vertical clearance of a large surface area. The plan was to eventually go quasi-wall-mount (kind of at an angle against an eve wall) when I exceed the height limitations... but since I was bumped to flower early due to an autoflowerer, I don't think I will exceed my height this time. I am going to have to think more about this before my next round.


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## Myles117 (Oct 22, 2011)

hey guys, so due to legal probs i have to get rid of my MJ plnts 

making the best oudda the situation, imma be growing veggies in the growroom under the lights.


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## AltarNation (Oct 22, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> making the best oudda the situation, imma be growing veggies in the growroom under the lights.


Sorry to hear of your troubles man... be sure to post us some pics of your veggies under PAR T5's though!


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## Myles117 (Oct 22, 2011)

oh i will  ordered up the seeds yesterday. gunna hav e a few tomato varieties, some jalapenos, sugar snaps and lettuce. might play with some hydro as well


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## Gastanker (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm a big believer in flouros and am a big fish enthusiast as well but I'm having a hard time with this... I didn't read the entire thread - did yields rise rapidly after the initial test run? 1 oz from 116w is pretty terrible; I yielded 6oz from 388w of CFL during my initial test run with them - nearly twice the the g/w and that barely compares to my HID grows. All 388w of my CFL cost me $5, that's 1/4 the price of a single UVL bulb. 

I totally agree that spectrum is often overlooked but side by side comparisons always show the standard flouros to do better when growing plants. Hard to argue with side by side scientific testing (I'm talking about fish tank plant testing as they tend to be much more scientific than pot growers and accurate info is much easier to find). If you went onto a coral forum and told them that using just actinic would grow better coral than a MH they would laugh - and that's what these bulbs are made for. 

Actinic bulbs penetrate water well and help with particular algae but even coral people admit that they don't grow plants very well. Here is a great aquarium site with a TON of useful scientific information. Even here they state that most 6500k grow flouros will out do actinics/narrow range bulbs. 

http://www.americanaquariumproducts.com/Aquarium_Lighting.html


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 22, 2011)

Gastanker said:


> I'm a big believer in flouros and am a big fish enthusiast as well but I'm having a hard time with this... I didn't read the entire thread - did yields rise rapidly after the initial test run? 1 oz from 116w is pretty terrible; I yielded 6oz from 388w of CFL during my initial test run with them - nearly twice the the g/w and that barely compares to my HID grows. All 388w of my CFL cost me $5, that's 1/4 the price of a single UVL bulb.
> 
> I totally agree that spectrum is often overlooked but side by side comparisons always show the standard flouros to do better when growing plants. Hard to argue with side by side scientific testing (I'm talking about fish tank plant testing as they tend to be much more scientific than pot growers and accurate info is much easier to find). If you went onto a coral forum and told them that using just actinic would grow better coral than a MH they would laugh - and that's what these bulbs are made for.
> 
> ...


How's it Gastanker?
I use to live on the Ridge! have you eaten @ "Casa de Paradiso"? They have the best salsa Ever!!!

Yes it's true.. so far there's been few posts showing yields under these lights but stick around they'll start showing up, more and more people are trying the lights out.
I can attest to how well they work during veg.

Happy growing
UCDWC~


----------



## Gastanker (Oct 22, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> How's it Gastanker?
> I use to live on the Ridge! have you eaten @ "Casa de Paradiso"? They have the best salsa Ever!!!
> 
> Yes it's true.. so far there's been few posts showing yields under these lights but stick around they'll start showing up, more and more people are trying the lights out.
> ...


The vegging plants look wonderful - I'm sure for supplementation those bulbs are great. 

I don't know if I've been there or not but I have defiantly seen it. I'm new to the area, but loving it.


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## AltarNation (Oct 22, 2011)

Yeah, let's see how results turn out and then start drawing some conclusions. Personally, If I'm not happy with my yields I will do a run with the standard bulbs after, as I have both on hand. Or I may throw a cool tube in line as well, and use the T5's as supplemental from the side. All depends on how the results turn out. I'd rather not have to double the electric expense if I can get away with just the T5's.

When people shoot for a certain gram to wattage ratio, is that dried bud or wet weight? And what is considered a good ratio?


----------



## Gastanker (Oct 22, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah, let's see how results turn out and then start drawing some conclusions. Personally, If I'm not happy with my yields I will do a run with the standard bulbs after, as I have both on hand. Or I may throw a cool tube in line as well, and use the T5's as supplemental from the side. All depends on how the results turn out. I'd rather not have to double the electric expense if I can get away with just the T5's.
> 
> When people shoot for a certain gram to wattage ratio, is that dried bud or wet weight? And what is considered a good ratio?


Dried bud. .5g/w is considered good, 1g/w is considered a pro. What people should report is gram/kWh. g/kWh flouros do very well in comparison to HID.

I pulled 5.4oz my first grow with CFLs:
15 day veg:
First 10 days @ 18hrs*23w
Days 10-15 @ 18hrs*46w
Total veg kWh: 8.28 kWh
60 day flower:
Days 1-20 @ 12hrs*230w
Days 21-40 @ 12hrs*296w
Days 41-60 @ 12hrs*388w
Total flower kWh: 219.36
Total kWh: 227.64 Total yield in grams: 151.2 g/kWh: .665 g/w: .39

Now lets look at a 400w HID:

400w*18hrs*15days = 108 kWh veg
400w*12hrs*60days = 288 kWh flower
Total: 396 kWh 

Over the course of the same grow the 400w would use 178% more electricity so anything less than 270grams and the HID is doing worse g/kWh - I don't know many people than can pull 9.5+ oz from a 400w with just a 15 day veg...


----------



## AltarNation (Oct 22, 2011)

Thanks for that Gastanker.


----------



## Triplezero1 (Oct 22, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Get those lights up and post a pic!


Ordering some remote ballasts this week. Planning on a 6 bulb on 2 opposing walls in each side of the setup...


----------



## pr0fesseur (Oct 22, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> oh i will  ordered up the seeds yesterday. gunna hav e a few tomato varieties, some jalapenos, sugar snaps and lettuce. might play with some hydro as well



NOOOOO!!!
shibby...
well i hope you sort those legal issues out, Ive personally been screwed as such more power to you!!


----------



## pr0fesseur (Oct 22, 2011)

Gastanker said:


> I'm a big believer in flouros and am a big fish enthusiast as well but I'm having a hard time with this... I didn't read the entire thread - did yields rise rapidly after the initial test run? 1 oz from 116w is pretty terrible; I yielded 6oz from 388w of CFL during my initial test run with them - nearly twice the the g/w and that barely compares to my HID grows. All 388w of my CFL cost me $5, that's 1/4 the price of a single UVL bulb.
> 
> I totally agree that spectrum is often overlooked but side by side comparisons always show the standard flouros to do better when growing plants. Hard to argue with side by side scientific testing (I'm talking about fish tank plant testing as they tend to be much more scientific than pot growers and accurate info is much easier to find). If you went onto a coral forum and told them that using just actinic would grow better coral than a MH they would laugh - and that's what these bulbs are made for.
> 
> ...


Again im not using JUST actinics...
AND HID bulb manufacturers are getting the hint that spectrum is what were after.. They make HID bulbs EXACTLY like the t5 aquarium lights for growing... i have them bookmarked and will share once i get my personal bulb first


----------



## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 22, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> NOOOOO!!!
> shibby...
> well i hope you sort those legal issues out, Ive personally been screwed as such more power to you!!


Have you been having problems since starting posting here at RIU?


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 22, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Yes you can use that fixture, yes you can get these bulbs in 2 foot I think you can still get the Ati pro color 660nm the professeur uses in the 2 foot length. The bulb order looks good. I include a ulv 75.25 during veg
> Happy to see you interested in using the P.A.R T5 bulbs.
> 
> Happy growing
> UCDWC~


I concur..
DWC can you post that vid you made here plz show people what you have?


----------



## pr0fesseur (Oct 22, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Have you been having problems since starting to posting here at RIU?


No... Only the very first grow police wanted to "take a look around and i had nothing... they grabbed what they wanted and eventually returned it... everything was packed away as my plants suffered Spidermite death..  so it was very fortunate..
i use HEAVY encryption with a hidden volume by truecrypt... i will happily let anyone take my pc they wont get anything


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 22, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Again im not using JUST actinics...
> AND HID bulb manufacturers are getting the hint that spectrum is what were after.. They make HID bulbs EXACTLY like the t5 aquarium lights for growing... i have them bookmarked and will share once i get my personal bulb first


You bastard!!.. send me a pm!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 22, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I concur..
> DWC can you post that vid you made here plz show people what you have?


I had posted it a few pages back but would be obliged too do it again. 

[video=youtube;xzE-I3ad6_w]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzE-I3ad6_w&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL[/video]​


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## AltarNation (Oct 23, 2011)

Having a little light trouble... lost one of my reds... looking into warranty info since it's pretty new. In the mean time I'm dropping in a bloom bulb from agromax to supplement.


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## AltarNation (Oct 23, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> You bastard!!.. send me a pm!


ditto this..  I have a 6" duct from the blower running right above the T5s at the top of the space... seems silly that there is not an HID in a cool tube in there ... I could easily shift my T5's to a vertical arrangement and have some serious lighting coming from two directions... that would open up my space and allow me to use it to it's full extent as well... hmmm... I might just have to do this anyway, new bulb or not, haha.


----------



## novice11 (Oct 23, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Having a little light trouble... lost one of my reds... looking into warranty info since it's pretty new. In the mean time I'm dropping in a bloom bulb from agromax to supplement.


Lots of problems with the last shipment of Red Suns, it seems. Aquarium Specialties has been good about replacing them, if that's where it came from.


----------



## AltarNation (Oct 23, 2011)

Yeah I saw someone else post about something along those lines... I'm sure they'll be cool about it... their service has been great so far.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 23, 2011)

Last week I transfered 8 plants from under the T5 to bloom under 2000w of Hps freeing up a lot of space in my veg room. The 4 plants left under the badboy are very happy with lots of room to grow. My roots are massive & healthy and the leaves continue to come out Dark Dark Green and very fragrant. 

Notes:
I've also found my flowering plants under HPS have lost that deep dark green.
Flowering plants have started to show sex in under a week.

Happy Growing!
UCDWC~

This Week:


























Last week


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## PetFlora (Oct 23, 2011)

My leaves are dark- dark green too.  I am experimenting in m y F & D rig. I was running 4 feed cycles per lights on, but today I decided to go with a cycle every 45 minutes. This should not be a problem as plant roots are in lava rock (quick drain). I will stay with only 2 feedings during lights out. Hoping all that extra food + the bulbs will super charges bud development, which was already pretty good. Will post pics next week


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## hyroot (Oct 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Again im not using JUST actinics...
> AND HID bulb manufacturers are getting the hint that spectrum is what were after.. They make HID bulbs EXACTLY like the t5 aquarium lights for growing... i have them bookmarked and will share once i get my personal bulb first



yeah I think I want to know too, but I' m not sure though.. I think I'd rather still stick with the t5 based on the heat factor. Even with venting my 1k at 2 feet away still puts out a great deal of heat. It kind of burns the plants that directly centered under it. those ones definitely get a little light bleaching too.


----------



## AltarNation (Oct 24, 2011)

Dude those root balls :O oh my god.


----------



## grapeoptimo (Oct 24, 2011)

if u can keep those healthy they will b great.


----------



## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 24, 2011)

Thought I'd show a few pics of my canopy, I also hung a bb vertical in the flower room.


----------



## AssDan (Oct 25, 2011)

Thanks Pr0f for doing the leg work on this subject. I read the entire thread, and I like to think I absorbed most of it. I'm fairly new to growing and I chose T5s as my light source. I'm glad that you and this community here has said to hell with conventional thinking. I feel the same way. In different posts, I was told that I needed HID lights and that T5s are only good for clones. I nearly believed them and was really considering a 400w HPS. 

I'm doing my grow conventionally right now with 6500k for veg and 3000k for flowering and growing some decent flowers. When I have the money for new bulbs, and possibly more fixtures, I'm giving your method a shot. 

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for bringing this to the attention of anyone who is open to new ideas. 

PS - I agree there needs to be a separate fourm for T5 growers.


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## AltarNation (Oct 25, 2011)

I'm not entirely satisfied with the temperature inside my tent... I've got a panasonic whisperline @240 cfm but heat is still building up over the course of the day, slowly rising to 80-85 ambient in a room that's something like 70-75 ambient. I'm not sure what would have happened if I let it keep building up the rest of the day, because I opened it to check things out.

Anyway, as a solution, I am strongly considering replacing the ballast box on my unit with a 2x4 and moving the whole ballast box outside of the grow area. Lengthening all the wires sounds like a pain in my ass, but I don't want to heat-stress my plants. As "cool" as these lights run compared to a HID (ie, the ballasts don't need to be remote) I still feel the heat would be a lot more manageable overall with the ballasts outside the tent. I'd recommend anyone getting T5's to go more along the "build your own" route and use remote ballasts just for the extra convenient level of heat control it yields. The reflectors right up on the bulbs are cool to the touch, but the ballast box gets pretty uncomfortably warm.


----------



## TechnoMage (Oct 25, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> I'm not entirely satisfied with the temperature inside my tent... I've got a panasonic whisperline @240 cfm but heat is still building up over the course of the day, slowly rising to 80-85 ambient in a room that's something like 70-75 ambient. I'm not sure what would have happened if I let it keep building up the rest of the day, because I opened it to check things out.
> 
> Anyway, as a solution, I am strongly considering replacing the ballast box on my unit with a 2x4 and moving the whole ballast box outside of the grow area. Lengthening all the wires sounds like a pain in my ass, but I don't want to heat-stress my plants. As "cool" as these lights run compared to a HID (ie, the ballasts don't need to be remote) I still feel the heat would be a lot more manageable overall with the ballasts outside the tent. I'd recommend anyone getting T5's to go more along the "build your own" route and use remote ballasts just for the extra convenient level of heat control it yields. The reflectors right up on the bulbs are cool to the touch, but the ballast box gets pretty uncomfortably warm.


That was the problem I had in my cab. I had four, 2x32w T8 reflectors (total 8 bulbs) as side lighting and a 3x55w T5 reflector as my main and had serious problems with heat. I moved to a 250w HPS CoolTube and it decreased my temp and I still had a bigger yield. Just a warning, how remote you can make your ballast depends on your ballast. For example, with Fulham ballast, the WorkHorse can only go the length of it's leads, the HighHorse is 9 feet and the Long Horse is 20 feet.


----------



## pr0fesseur (Oct 25, 2011)

It also depends on the quality of the ballast... more efficient ballasts produce less heat.. better ventilation would help as well.
Obviously a cool tube is going to produce less heat...
ALSO 250cfm is TOO SMALL for anything other than a tv stand.. Mind your probably only gettin ~100cfm when all is said and done remember every bend in a hose diminishes the capacity up to 15%+ i have 120mm fans that do 200cfm, that doesent mean the ACTUALLY move that much air...my 3x3x7 cab absolutely needed a 600cfm to keep the temps @ bay. Also remember you must have exaust &&&& Supply @ the same rate or your fan will suffer from backpressure...
http://www.bathroomfanexperts.com/product.php?p=suncourt_tf106&product=112180


----------



## PetFlora (Oct 26, 2011)

10 days since seeing the first pistils and only 5 full days (pic taken first thing this morning) with Coral Waves/Red Lifes/Special Actinics, oh and only 3 days of feeding every 30-40 minutes during lights on instead of every 4 hours.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 26, 2011)

ill see your cool tube and raise you one of these.
_*http://www.growlightexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1033&cPath=5#googlebase*_





Remember if your going to air cool your T5 DO NOT COOL THE ENTIRE BULB.. ONLY THE LABEL END
the temperature of the label end determines the pressure of the bulb and how well it performs.. the cooler the label end the better the bulb will run and a longer life.


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## AltarNation (Oct 26, 2011)

Got my thinking cap on and I'm going to try to "cooltube" the ballasts and not the bulbs, haha. I am just going to cut a section of ducting in half and lay it across the ballast box, run a strip of tape up each side... should work I think... the bulbs don't really get that hot compared to the ballasts. Also getting rid of a lot of ducting in my setup to increase air transfer rate, and getting rid of some corners in the exhaust path.

While I'm at it I'll float the blower with bungie cords and wrap in something to dampen noise... hopefully I can make things work with the blower I have even though it's low cfm. They wanted to take 25% restocking fee and make me pay the original shipping cost to get it to me, in addition to the shipping to get it back to them! Absurd... I will ebay it if I can't make it work, but I'm going to see what I can do with it first.


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## TechnoMage (Oct 26, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> ill see your cool tube and raise you one of these.
> _*http://www.growlightexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1033&cPath=5#googlebase*_
> 
> 
> ...


That's pretty slick, hadn't seen those before. Wouldn't have fit in my cab however, it was only 36"x18".

Here's a shot of that first grow with all the lights in action.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 26, 2011)

Received a few bulbs from my order today, installed 4 of 5 in the flower room.












Happy growing 
UCDWC~


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 26, 2011)

Pr0fesseur?

Do you think a Plazma/led/lcd tv could give off the Nm wave lengths we're looking for?


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## PetFlora (Oct 27, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Pr0fesseur?
> 
> Do you think a Plazma/led/lcd tv could give off the Nm wave lengths we're looking for?


Much love for your efforts. *

Bulb config question:* I see you have your reds next to each other. I placed mine so that Actinc blues are in between the Red Lifes, outside of each a Coral Wave. My thought being to help spread the light. Any thoughts? 
*
Plazma: *My personal opinion is that we want the ability to control the amount of far red and deep blue


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## PetFlora (Oct 27, 2011)

Grow Light HO T 5: I emailed them to inquire whether it has separate o/o switches. 

*TechnoMagi* Their product page says 4ft.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 27, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Much love for your efforts. *
> 
> Bulb config question:* I see you have your reds next to each other. I placed mine so that Actinc blues are in between the Red Lifes, outside of each a Coral Wave. My thought being to help spread the light. Any thoughts?
> *
> Plazma: *My personal opinion is that we want the ability to control the amount of far red and deep blue


Fiji purps are 50-50 blue/red
The order of bulbs in that fixture is:
Fiji
Red sun/life
454
75.25
red sun/life
Fiji

I didn't receive my whole order from Aquarium specialty or else I'd have it set up like this:

Fiji
Red sun/life
454
75.25
red sun/life
+
fiji
red sun/life

Happy growing
UCDWC~


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## Triplezero1 (Oct 27, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> I'm not entirely satisfied with the temperature inside my tent... I've got a panasonic whisperline @240 cfm but heat is still building up over the course of the day, slowly rising to 80-85 ambient in a room that's something like 70-75 ambient. I'm not sure what would have happened if I let it keep building up the rest of the day, because I opened it to check things out.
> 
> Anyway, as a solution, I am strongly considering replacing the ballast box on my unit with a 2x4 and moving the whole ballast box outside of the grow area. Lengthening all the wires sounds like a pain in my ass, but I don't want to heat-stress my plants. As "cool" as these lights run compared to a HID (ie, the ballasts don't need to be remote) I still feel the heat would be a lot more manageable overall with the ballasts outside the tent. I'd recommend anyone getting T5's to go more along the "build your own" route and use remote ballasts just for the extra convenient level of heat control it yields. The reflectors right up on the bulbs are cool to the touch, but the ballast box gets pretty uncomfortably warm.


Check out this link. http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=19811&cmpid=03csegb&ref=3312&subref=AA&CAWELAID=525426348
im thinking of the same idea.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 27, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Pr0fesseur?
> 
> Do you think a Plazma/led/lcd tv could give off the Nm wave lengths we're looking for?


 Nope most tv sets only produce 700 ft candles.. not even close to enough light
some of the best projectors only produce 2500 lumens..


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## PetFlora (Oct 28, 2011)

After several emails to Grow Light Express, I am told it is the standard 46", and may behave as BB does in the ability to be used in 2/4/6/8 bulbs at a time


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## PetFlora (Oct 28, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> I'm not entirely satisfied with the temperature inside my tent... I've got a panasonic whisperline @240 cfm but heat is still building up over the course of the day, slowly rising to 80-85 ambient in a room that's something like 70-75 ambient. I'm not sure what would have happened if I let it keep building up the rest of the day, because I opened it to check things out.
> 
> Anyway, as a solution, I am strongly considering replacing the ballast box on my unit with a 2x4 and moving the whole ballast box outside of the grow area. Lengthening all the wires sounds like a pain in my ass, but I don't want to heat-stress my plants. As "cool" as these lights run compared to a HID (ie, the ballasts don't need to be remote) I still feel the heat would be a lot more manageable overall with the ballasts outside the tent. I'd recommend anyone getting T5's to go more along the "build your own" route and use remote ballasts just for the extra convenient level of heat control it yields. The reflectors right up on the bulbs are cool to the touch, but the ballast box gets pretty uncomfortably warm.


Unless you are growing inside a tent, the BB has vent holes along the reflectors. You could also put a light-weight fan on the top (facing up) and suck the hot air up & out.


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## organicbynature (Oct 28, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> On the other hand, we as consumers are free to study the spectrum of similar, competing, and less expensive T5 HO bulbs produced by other companies, and make educated purchasing decisions:
> 
> AquaticLife Roseate http://aquaticlife.com/
> Aqua Medic Plant Grow http://www.aqua-medic.com/
> ...


Does anyone have experience with any of these Fiji Purple alternatives yet? I'm struggling with paying twice as much for a bulb that I don't know the spectrum for when the reason I'm paying extra to begin with is spectrum control. Has anyone seen any of these going next to a Fiji Purple to compare visually?

I think ohiogrown has both the ATI Purple and the Fiji, can you tell us how you think they compare?


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## AltarNation (Oct 28, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Unless you are growing inside a tent, the BB has vent holes along the reflectors. You could also put a light-weight fan on the top (facing up) and suck the hot air up & out.


Well, I'm growing in inside a cramped closet with a tent like door, haha... but I digress... I also do not have a regular BB, but a knockoff brand. A lightweight fan on top of it is not a bad idea, but I decided to go one further with it; I'm going to put together a custom piece of half-duct along all the ballast vents, then attach that half-duct right to my exhaust line... should result in a cool-tube-like effect on the ballasts themselves.


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2011)

Day 23


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2011)

last day of hps 1000 watt


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## Myles117 (Oct 28, 2011)

what day is last day? how long you run them bitches? looks great bro


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## Kaptain Kron (Oct 28, 2011)

mmm sexy beasts


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> what day is last day? how long you run them bitches? looks great bro


63 days. no bullshit, I'm seeing better results under the T5. The girls under the 1k were that far along after 4 weeks. the T5 ones are so frosty already
I love how they remain so perky through the whole day and absolutely zero stretching. These bulbs open up the stomata on the leaves so much more

I so can't wait for the 12 bulb to replace the 1k


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## Myles117 (Oct 28, 2011)

giggggggity!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 28, 2011)

hyroot said:


> 63 days. no bullshit, I'm seeing better results under the T5. The girls under the 1k were that far along after 4 weeks. the T5 ones are so frosty already
> I love how they remain so perky through the whole day and absolutely zero stretching. These bulbs open up the stomata on the leaves so much more
> 
> I so can't wait for the 12 bulb to replace the 1k


 And the results are amazing hyroot! Beautiful under any light 
Proof is in the PAR ladies and gentlemen...More light less HEAT!
Thanks for showing others what i could not!


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 28, 2011)

hyroot said:


> 63 days. no bullshit, I'm seeing better results under the T5. The girls under the 1k were that far along after 4 weeks. the T5 ones are so frosty already
> I love how they remain so perky through the whole day and absolutely zero stretching. These bulbs open up the stomata on the leaves so much more
> 
> I so can't wait for the 12 bulb to replace the 1k


On a side note... Save for the 16 bulb...
that will be a true equivalent to a 1k... and im sure we would all love to see THAT grow!!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 29, 2011)

I decided to flower the 4 plants I have in veg.
Today I turned the lights off for 36 hour dark period before lights on for a 12/12 P.A.R T5 flower cycle.


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> On a side note... Save for the 16 bulb...
> that will be a true equivalent to a 1k... and im sure we would all love to see THAT grow!!



I already have an 8 bulb. I plan on adding the 12 right next to it. So it will be like rockin a 20 bulb.


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## PetFlora (Oct 29, 2011)

*Psytranceorgy:  I am not using Fiji Purp. Although Pr0f has proven results, we have no Fiji graph to justify its' high price. I, like you, went with a known bulb for purple range- Wave Technologies Coral Wave.

My buds are growing crazy fast, but probably 50% of that can be attributed to me flooding my table every 20 minutes during lights on.*


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## PetFlora (Oct 29, 2011)

Ta Da. Just wanted to be the first entry on page 100. Looks like I didn't make it though. Nevertheless Outstanding Thread.


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## organicbynature (Oct 29, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Psytranceorgy:  I am not using Fiji Purp. Although Pr0f has proven results, we have no Fiji graph to justify its' high price. I, like you, went with a known bulb for purple range- Wave Technologies Coral Wave.
> 
> My buds are growing crazy fast, but probably 50% of that can be attributed to me flooding my table every 20 minutes during lights on.*


So you're using the coral waves as your "base" rather than swapping them in as a flowering supplement? Not much for red, is it? It looks to me like a blue bulb that also offers a touch of far red.


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## MurshDawg (Oct 29, 2011)

Here's my weekly update. I think I made a noob mistake but I am curious to hear all y'alls opinion [video=youtube;4mcZlZxDnpc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mcZlZxDnpc[/video]


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## Myles117 (Oct 29, 2011)

seeing as you are having multiple nutrient def symptoms it may be a case of ph lockout. have you tested your soil runoff for ph?

im anti advnaced nutrients cuz they overpriced but botanicares calmag plus is great stuff


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## organicbynature (Oct 29, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Here's my weekly update. I think I made a noob mistake but I am curious to hear all y'alls opinion


They'll be OK. It may be that the CalMag (or similar) helps, but I agree that you should check your runoff PH. I just recently had some more intense nutrient issues than that, and it was from over-fertilizing. I got a PH meter and found that my runoff was coming out at 5.3. I've just been giving them RO water and some Magic Green treatments and the worst of them are just about back to normal (normal being really great)

Actually, now that I think of it, I did give some of the smaller ones, which I hadn't burned as badly, a bit of CalMag and some molasses


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## MurshDawg (Oct 29, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> They'll be OK. It may be that the CalMag (or similar) helps, but I agree that you should check your runoff PH. I just recently had some more intense nutrient issues than that, and it was from over-fertilizing. I got a PH meter and found that my runoff was coming out at 5.3. I've just been giving them RO water and some Magic Green treatments and the worst of them are just about back to normal (normal being really great)
> 
> Actually, now that I think of it, I did give some of the smaller ones, which I hadn't burned as badly, a bit of CalMag and some molasses


I didn't check my run off but my media PH was around 5.5 yesterday before I flushed with R/O and clearex. Today when I checked the PH it went back up to around 6.5-7.0; I am gonna water them with only R/O from now on and next week I'll start feeding again.
As far as AN goes for nutes. I agree they are a tad bit expensive. AN is advertised to work well with Coco. I might go to humboldt or GH's Organics line the nexst time I re-up on nutes. For now, I went with ANs CalMag-grow. I always wanted to try the molasses thing as part of the final flush. I hear it makes a difference.


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## organicbynature (Oct 29, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> I didn't check my run off but my media PH was around 5.5 yesterday before I flushed with R/O and clearex. Today when I checked the PH it went back up to around 6.5-7.0; I am gonna water them with only R/O from now on and next week I'll start feeding again.
> As far as AN goes for nutes. I agree they are a tad bit expensive. AN is advertised to work well with Coco. I might go to humboldt or GH's Organics line the nexst time I re-up on nutes. For now, I went with ANs CalMag-grow. I always wanted to try the molasses thing as part of the final flush. I hear it makes a difference.


If you're stuck on whether or not to add the CalMag, I don't think there's a drawback to the foliar-feeding approach while you get things figured out. That's what I used Magic Green for most recently. I should add the caveat that I'm an experienced gardener but new to this in particular.

Based on how it works in gardening in general, I assume MJ is using its friendly bacteria and fungi in a carbohydrates for nutrient exchange. The plant provides sugars, which it has created through photosynthesis, to the bacteria/fungi. In return, the bacteria and fungi provide access to nutrients that would otherwise be unavailable to the plant. They also sometimes provide other services, like pest or weather support. When you add molasses, you're adding sugars to the soil, which the bacteria/fungi can use instead of getting them from the plant. They suddenly have an abundance of easy energy available in their environment and can operate at high levels without taking as much from the plant in exchange for what they give back to it. This is how it is food for your soil (I think).

I know some people use it only in flower and some use it all throughout the grow. I haven't seen anyone having a problem with it. I think the best thing to do is understand it as best you can and then do what feels right in your situation.


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Here's my weekly update. I think I made a noob mistake but I am curious to hear all y'alls opinion [video=youtube;4mcZlZxDnpc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mcZlZxDnpc[/video]


 Don't use cal/mag. it has edta in it, no bueno...... Use calplex . From botanicare too but its organic and omri listed and has more cal and mag in it. Or use dolomite lime. It has cal mag in it. Dolomite lime also is a ph miracle fixer and it only costs $3 for a 4 lbs. box

That doesn't look like a deficiency. If it were a mag def the tips and edges would be yellow and if it was calcium def there would be transparent red spots. It looks like its too hot. The edges of the leaves are all flared up. Thats an indicator of too much heat. It looks like too much phos.. That will burn the tip and edges making a red / brown color. flush and cut back the nutes. Too much heat can cause the edges to burn too

Always remember less is more


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2011)

Prof can you send me a pm of those hid bulbs?. My buddy is replacing bulbs for 3 lights and I want to help him find good bulbs. The best I found are the c.a.p. digilux enhanced blue spectrum.


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## AltarNation (Oct 29, 2011)

If anyone's interested, I ended up cutting up some 6" flexible ducting and using aluminum tape to patch together a ballast cooler. (don't mind the duct tape in the middle... it looks like crap but it's got a layer of air-tight aluminum tape on the inside.) I'd like to set up a plexi casing and cool the bulbs too, but this alone should take most of the heat right out of the tent before it has a chance to linger and build up.

Here's a couple shots, plus a few obligatory bud shots:



Buds:


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 29, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> If anyone's interested, I ended up cutting up some 6" flexible ducting and using aluminum tape to patch together a ballast cooler. (don't mind the duct tape in the middle... it looks like crap but it's got a layer of air-tight aluminum tape on the inside.) I'd like to set up a plexi casing and cool the bulbs too, but this alone should take most of the heat right out of the tent before it has a chance to linger and build up.
> 
> Here's a couple shots, plus a few obligatory bud shots:
> 
> ...


 Anyone say frosty?
so what do you think how are your lights performing so far what are your likes/dislikes/observations...
1000 words sometimes are better than a few pics..
how far along are they again?


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## PetFlora (Oct 30, 2011)

*OrganicByNature:*

Yes, Coral Waves as my base.

Don't have sufficient amount of coral bulbs, so I am infilling with Quantum Grow (on the outsides). The overall effect is reddish blue

*Grow*
Aqua Suns
Special Actinics
Coral Waves 
Quantum Grow

*Flower*
All the above plus Red Lifes

I'm trying to hold off on taking another pic until it's a week, but DAMN, the buds are rockin


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## AltarNation (Oct 30, 2011)

Pr0f those shots are 22 days into flowering. Veg was something like 9 weeks from seed germination..? I kind of feel like I should have seen more vegetative growth, compared to other grows? I don't really know, honestly, so a thousand words from me isn't that valuable, lol. I also started out weak, using CFLs for the first couple weeks and the agromax 6000k bulbs for a week or so after that before getting custom bulbs.

But, I've been happy with the bud development so far... I wanted my plants to be a bit bigger before going to bud, but had an autoflowerer in there that forced my hand... none the less, the timing works out as it should be done before christmas. I'm going to let my next plants veg longer and try some FIMing. 

So I guess, overall, my plants look really healthy but are a little smaller than I expected to see at this stage. Maybe I will see a lot of development over the next month of flowering?


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## AltarNation (Oct 30, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Anyone say frosty?


Here's a better shot of the leaves frosting up on one of the obviously more potent ladies:


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## hyroot (Oct 30, 2011)

I said frosty before. I love everything about them. the only thing that im not sure of but i guess its cool. even if super crop outwards or not. the branches don't grow out sideways at all really. they go straight upwards but they are not stretching

under the hps mine still got very frosty. under the t5 they got frosty much much sooner. They are caked so much more with crystals today than when I took those last pics.


----------



## Kaptain Kron (Oct 30, 2011)

Gotta love par I love how well this thread validates LEDs as viable even tho it's a t5 grow proves that intensity plays a far second to par and proper spectrum somthin led guys been sayin forever I love this thread really shows its all about spectrum more than the light u use great job guys if i wasn't already usin LEDs I'd run this style setup


----------



## pr0fesseur (Oct 30, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> Gotta love par I love how well this thread validates LEDs as viable even tho it's a t5 grow proves that intensity plays a far second to par and proper spectrum somthin led guys been sayin forever I love this thread really shows its all about spectrum more than the light u use great job guys if i wasn't already usin LEDs I'd run this style setup


Led definitely has its place in the Grow room. However i think that the Led has much more work to be done before its competitive. 
They still dont Bin the LED to accurately measure EVERY LED. thats concerning as we dont have any idea how/IF the led will perform when its assembled. 
Led still dont come in enough colors to be truly effective as they have a limited NM range.plants obviously need a larger range of light than led (at the moment) can provide.
LED IS getting better, and the prices ARE coming down. However plasma tech is coming down faster and the prices to manufacture Plasma are OLD technology.
a magnetron, ballast and a gas bulb = plasma
Plasma is also VERY efficient and produces the best(most equivilant to sunlight) and most light of ANY solution $/$
Will led become the next lighting technology...sure for low energy projects.. Now i know there are 25W-100W single diode led's out there but 300$ each is stretching my wallet too thin  
Sure we can add more diodes to a board but if they get too close they WILL fail due to heat... Still a major concern to microelectronics...
LED/Oled is the future and will be bringing us sensor glass and see through televisions... but may loose in the longrun to a plasma based bulb.


----------



## Kaptain Kron (Oct 30, 2011)

Plasma has been around for long time I know All about that thanks tesla lol but I think your views while being accurate i have one qualm spectrums what nm spectrum can i not get in led? Ive seen tons of different nm leds being offered by seti cree and luxeon. I have two different kinds I use and will continue to use they are a bit expensive still and need to come down in price but kessil and blackstar have very impressive products I'm easily pulling qps off of a 133 watt draw light add my 36 watt kessil in there and I can get up to six off of one plant with five total gallons of rootspace so LEDs are definitely beginning to perform

That being said the price is still a bit high but so is the price on a decent plasma rig and til those come down more ill stick to my leds or running a t5 setup like yours. I want a plasma rig if I'm going to run any sort of hid besides a CMh right now and that's just because i can't fit t5s and LEDs too much $ for a micro grow 


pr0fesseur said:


> Led definitely has its place in the Grow room. However i think that the Led has much more work to be done before its competitive.
> They still dont Bin the LED to accurately measure EVERY LED. thats concerning as we dont have any idea how/IF the led will perform when its assembled.
> Led still dont come in enough colors to be truly effective as they have a limited NM range.plants obviously need a larger range of light than led (at the moment) can provide.
> LED IS getting better, and the prices ARE coming down. However plasma tech is coming down faster and the prices to manufacture Plasma are OLD technology.
> ...


----------



## UnderCurrentDWC (Oct 30, 2011)

How's It guys?
Well my plants came out of the 36 hour dark cycle this morning. I under currented the two totes I'd been using, I also changed over to bloom nutes & added the other 8 bulb bb to the room giving me 24 bulbs @ ~1400-1500 watts. 





































Happy growing
UCDWC~


----------



## Kaptain Kron (Oct 31, 2011)

Likin it that's a fuckin insane amount of t5 watts lol without par would be so wasteful but with the right bulbs fuckin magic again props to the prof what tickled ur brain the day u decided to do this i do not know but bless its heart lol


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## AltarNation (Oct 31, 2011)

I was trying to get a cat hair off a bud without hurting it (god damn cat hair is the bane of my existence at this point... getting the door tightened up with screen on the intake asap...) but I accidentally mushed my finger through the hairs a bit in the process... so I took a whiff and ho-leeee-sheeeeit that smells amazing. It's like some kind of candy bubblegum temptress.


----------



## Myles117 (Oct 31, 2011)

lmao funny shit. i have same prob once inna while but not bad. i keep the cats away formt he plants when i got a grow goin


----------



## falcon223 (Nov 1, 2011)

I brought this up, about the T5 aquarium bulbs on another forum and got flamed. Might get baned for it.

I owen 101...


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## AltarNation (Nov 1, 2011)

Word... I rushed to get started so I didn't dial in the enclosure all the way beforehand. Been slowly getting the enclosure squared away.


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## AltarNation (Nov 1, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I brought this up, about the T5 aquarium bulbs on another forum and got flamed.  Might get baned for it.



Dude you are the 1011th post in the thread... if he was going to get banned it would have happened by now.


----------



## falcon223 (Nov 1, 2011)

Well I asked about using T5 aquarium bulbs , And flowering under them. I got flamed real bad. I was called stupid and uninformed.

I do plan on using the professors idea. 

It is 102 now.


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## AltarNation (Nov 1, 2011)

Haha... no worries man. Just saying, this thread is pretty stable and I think this is a community that is open minded towards the idea!


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## PetFlora (Nov 2, 2011)

*AltarNation* falcon223 was talking about being slammed on another site, not ours.

A couple shots just one week later than previous. I used same relative position so anyone can scroll back and compare


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## AltarNation (Nov 2, 2011)

Looking good Flora...


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## AltarNation (Nov 2, 2011)

26:


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## falcon223 (Nov 2, 2011)

Yea they jumped my ass hard. Nice looking there Altar.


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## AltarNation (Nov 2, 2011)

Much thanks!


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## imlovnit24/7 (Nov 2, 2011)

Hi everybody. I've read almost half this thread tho there's a lot of info to read and retain so I'm sorry if I'm asking ?'s that've already been asked. I'm a CFL grower and have been looking to upgrade but I've had mixed emotions on what to switch to. I've got an easy $150 to spend tho could scrape together $50 if worth it. After reading thru a lot of this HIGH-ly informative thread, I'm torn between LED and the Aquarium bulbs. Because this yr i got raped by my electric bill running about 600W between my veg area and flower box and I know i could do a lot better. I plan to go to just 1 cabinet and work on a 3-4 month cycle instead of what I'm doing now. 

Spectrum's and everything make a lot of sense instead of the wasted lumens in the wrong spectrums like from HPS/MH. I just really would like to know what the best sites for pricing and availability for either setup???

My grow cabinet it 36''T x 36"W x 16"D (4sq.ft.) as long as my 150 will get me the fixture and bulbs or just 1 decent LED setup I'll be all over it.


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 2, 2011)

150 for an led you be hard pressed for that area your ginna need at least a black star 240 panel and that's like 250 not sure about the t5 setup tho but 150 will get u a 4 bulb 4' fixture


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## organicbynature (Nov 2, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> 150 for an led you be hard pressed for that area your ginna need at least a black star 240 panel and that's like 250 not sure about the t5 setup tho but 150 will get u a 4 bulb 4' fixture


The Blackstar 240 is running $280 these days, though you can get it for $270 with free shipping if you call them. Might be able to talk them down lower.


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## PetFlora (Nov 3, 2011)

*Problem with 4 bulb T5. *Unless you are growing _only _cola phenos it won't work. BK-1 (my lovely first coral bulb effort) takes up a solid 2ft square footprint. The 8 bulb is barely big enough. Now that said, The 8 bulb BB allows you to run blubs in sets of 2, so you can run half at a time to save on electric. You can also do a modified 12/12 from seed, or clone


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 3, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> The Blackstar 240 is running $280 these days, though you can get it for $270 with free shipping if you call them. Might be able to talk them down lower.


Your info is flawed call em and it's dropped to 240-250 shipped trust me I bought mine damn near a year and a half ago they aren't raisin prices on em if anything they goin down


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 3, 2011)

That's the eBay price you posted I don't know anyone who hasn't called em direct and got cheaper prices


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## imlovnit24/7 (Nov 3, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> The Blackstar 240 is running $280 these days, though you can get it for $270 with free shipping if you call them. Might be able to talk them down lower.


Basically I need to save a bit more then...dam i was hoping to upgrade real soon. If anything else to help me in persuit if educating myself on NM wave and photosynthasis, I'm having a hard time finding charts and understandable info. Anyone got any good links?


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## Myles117 (Nov 3, 2011)

always better to wait and get the right shit then to jump the gun n end up wishing you had waited


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## canadian1969 (Nov 3, 2011)

imlovnit24/7 said:


> Basically I need to save a bit more then...dam i was hoping to upgrade real soon. If anything else to help me in persuit if educating myself on NM wave and photosynthasis, I'm having a hard time finding charts and understandable info. Anyone got any good links?


Couple charts I found some time ago.


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 3, 2011)

Yep do your research I will have a few nice pics comn in my journal. Well actually one really of my blue dream under LEDs in week five. It's gonna go for eleven this time least that's what I'm shooting for chunking up nice already gonna have some fatties on her I'm in a 3-3-5 cab with air floor and a six inch inline evacuating the box. Passive intake runnin a blackstar 240 and a kessil. I want to switch my mother can to another flower booth and build a bigger mouse room and run the aquarium bulb t5 rigs


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## MurshDawg (Nov 3, 2011)

Here's my update! I solved my nute problems and got some good clippings check out my journal [video=youtube;raYWTvx00s4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=raYWTvx00s4[/video]


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## hyroot (Nov 3, 2011)

DO NOT USE THE WAVE POINTS DURING VEG. The infrared red will cause them to flower even in a 18 hour cycle. I just learned that the hard way. They started flowering after 2 days. According to Texas A&M University, they say the same thing.


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## organicbynature (Nov 3, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> Your info is flawed call em and it's dropped to 240-250 shipped trust me I bought mine damn near a year and a half ago they aren't raisin prices on em if anything they goin down


I ordered more recently than that, but I did do my math wrong (I bought more than 1). I got mine for 260 ea. Like I said, might be able to talk them down more, but that's what he offered me.


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## PetFlora (Nov 4, 2011)

Can we please stop discussing where/how to buy LEDs in this Thread?

Thank You!


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## PetFlora (Nov 4, 2011)

*I MUSTA BEEN HIGH*

True Story- Sadly!

So yesterday I'm thinkin- WTF: I bought 3 Red Lifes like 2 weeks ago (10/20), but am only usin 2 OF them. OMG, what an Idiot. Problem solved. Now have 12.5% more far red just in time to bring her home.


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 4, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I ordered more recently than that, but I did do my math wrong (I bought more than 1). I got mine for 260 ea. Like I said, might be able to talk them down more, but that's what he offered me.


Good to know man thanks


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 4, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Can we please stop discussing where/how to buy LEDs in this Thread?
> 
> Thank You!


Umm lol excuse me. We were answering a question someone had.


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## Triplezero1 (Nov 4, 2011)

I'm almost ready to assemble my new cabinet(40" x 40" x 7'). I did change the quantity of T5 lighting I'm planning on using. My original design was a larger room split into 2 spaces. But now I have decided to use separate cabinets for each flowering setup. I am an LED user already(jumbo 180), so I plan on using the LEDs for top light but want to use the aquarium T5's for surround side lighting. I would like some input as to which combination of T5's I should use. I have a remote ballast setup, Four 4' bulbs per side. What would be the best mixture of color for each 4 bulb array? I was thinking of one full spectrum, two reds, and a blue/red. This is for flowering only.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 4, 2011)

What are "Red Lifes" and where do you get them? Sounds like something I could use for the flowering stage of my CFL grow....


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## cabbagesXradia (Nov 4, 2011)

Tyler123 said:


> I think that you have misunderstood me. I think it is really cool that you are trying different methods for growing. If this works I too will be trying these bulbs. I have read the entire post and understand what you are trying to do. I am a born skeptic. I can't believe that engineers at GE or Phillips have overlooked the basics of photosynthesis and have not created a bulb for the horticultural industry. It seems too easy. If it works great job but for now for me it just seems that you proved it works but is it actually better than current methods I will have to see others yields. I know you say it is not about yields but big healthy viable plants yield more than weak ones. We will see and I promise I mean no disrespect. I think it is great that you are trying new things.


 what we are trying to do here is get the cost down and get quality meds this is on of the best threads ive come across yet on this site i cannot speak for every one but i started getting into t5 lighting due to the fact i didnt have enough money for led so i figuered i would copy cat one . at first i was going to try and get just some red bulbs for flowering i didnt realize all these other spectrums and the nms they peak at the profess has brought this to my attention thanks profess i have pics coming soon!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 4, 2011)

IMO with blackstar around its been gettin really hard to justify t5 lighting I mean how much does an 8 bulb four foot bad boy run? About the same as a blackstar 500 that draws three hundred actual watts this is ginna he ya real close if not right there with a 600 hid. That being said I love the t5 lighting I want to compare the LEDs now to t5 as bids have been truly waxed by LEDs reason why no one believes it is no one does watt for watt comparisons. Do us and you will see LEDs walk all over hid. This begs to question now the differences between t5 and led maybe the t5s are actually better. It remains to be seen bu what's been proven is they are way viable shit I've seen good nug come off of dual spectrum t5 rigs take Myles for example lol


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## Myles117 (Nov 4, 2011)

my dream grow......LEDS and t5s together fighting the dank fight together


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## hyroot (Nov 4, 2011)

How many tims have you said something alomg these lines. It hqs already been explained over and over. T5 is better. Covers more area, less heat, controlable spectrum, less cost. Easier to maintain.


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## Myles117 (Nov 4, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> What are "Red Lifes" and where do you get them? Sounds like something I could use for the flowering stage of my CFL grow....


 
you sure can  i am using 6 of them with 2 super actinics and 6 3000k bulbs. dont wanna use just red lifes or you will be lacking in the lower end of the spectrum which is no good.

http://www.marinedepot.com/UVL_T5_V_HO_Red_Sun_Bulb_633NM_VHO_Fluorescent_T5_Light_Bulbs-UV_Lighting_Company_(UVL)-UF5229-FILTBUT5VH-vi.html


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## Myles117 (Nov 4, 2011)

i love t5s but they create way more heat than LEDs. not even close.


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## organicbynature (Nov 4, 2011)

hyroot said:


> How many tims have you said something alomg these lines. It hqs already been explained over and over. T5 is better. Covers more area, less heat, controlable spectrum, less cost. Easier to maintain.


I feel like this post should be in an LED grow journal, posted by a belligerent HID user.

I do like many of your other posts though, hyroot. 

Why are people in this thread down on LED all of a sudden? Got something against PAR lighting? 

As Myles suggested, the only way T5s put off less heat is if you have the ballasts outside of your grow-space. I haven't found a cheap, quality kit for this - would love to see what others have found. I think a 2-bulb, $50 ballast kit was linked to by the Prof some time ago, which isn't a bad price, but like the Kaptain was saying, that's going to put it into Blackstar pricing, once you add in the bulbs and shipping costs - and it looks like a bit of a pain to me. If you're going the DIY route, you can make your own LED panel relatively cheaply (or so I've read) and use whatever spectrums you want.

To me, both LEDs and T5s seem like great, similar, and compatible options. I've got LEDs going now, but intend to try out the T5s as well. It does look like a great way to grow, which is why I'm in this thread. 

A watt-for-watt PAR T5/LED/CMH comparison grow would be awesome.


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## hyroot (Nov 4, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> i love t5s but they create way more heat than LEDs. not even close.


The 500 watt ones ive seen have to be 15 inches away or it will burn the plant.


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## hyroot (Nov 5, 2011)

Im not down on leds its just I dont think their there yet. the led ive seen that pulls similar results costs 900 and covred less area. It was a blackstar 600 an


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## canadian1969 (Nov 5, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> If you're going the DIY route, you can make your own LED panel relatively cheaply (or so I've read) and use whatever spectrums you want.


This question should probably elsewhere, so apologies in advance... but WHERE have you read you can DIY LED on the cheap? I would love to know, cause I have priced the good quality diodes (high lumen/watt outputs, 1,2,3 watt versions) and they are really expensive, so unless you are going to buy like thousands of them its way to cost prohibitive, plus you have to add in the housings, temperature controls, backplanes, ballasts, wiring, sinks (in some cases) et al.

So please direct us to your source material. Honestly you would be helping me out at least and I am sure there are many others interested.


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## organicbynature (Nov 5, 2011)

canadian1969 said:


> This question should probably elsewhere, so apologies in advance... but WHERE have you read you can DIY LED on the cheap? I would love to know, cause I have priced the good quality diodes (high lumen/watt outputs, 1,2,3 watt versions) and they are really expensive, so unless you are going to buy like thousands of them its way to cost prohibitive, plus you have to add in the housings, temperature controls, backplanes, ballasts, wiring, sinks (in some cases) et al.
> 
> So please direct us to your source material. Honestly you would be helping me out at least and I am sure there are many others interested.


Well, it's not something I've read extensively on since it's not something I intend to pursue, Ive just seen it said in reference. A forum search for "LED DIY" brings up plenty of threads, but maybe you've already been through them.

Have you seen this site? - RapidLED

I'm not sure how their prices compare to other outlets, but a 3w cree LED with a lense is ~$4.60 there. That's top-of-the-line, but 100 of those, which would be 300 watts at max burn, would run $460, so DIY may not be a cheaper option than Blackstar after all (though it still beats the other leading panels). Actually, this makes me all the more impressed with Blackstar's pricing. 

I'm sorry I don't have better supporting information for you!

Also sorry to those who are sick of reading about LEDs in this thread. 

You know what would really get things back on track? Some nice T5 bud shots...


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 5, 2011)

I would wager to say No $750 L.E.D. can do this.

















I know we're all in the P.A.R. brotherhood. 
I don't exactly know why all this l.e.d talk is irritating me, it's probably because it's been a lot of clutter not particularly specific to T5 and when people read the last few pages it reads like an L.E.D thread, it could be all the talk about the blackstar being superior to the T5 set up that we're all using, or it could be the way kron insults p.a.r members when replying.





Edit:


organicbynature said:


> Well, it's not something I've read extensively on since it's not something I intend to pursue, Ive just seen it said in reference.
> I'm not sure how their prices compare to other outlets, so DIY may not be a cheaper option
> I'm sorry I don't have better supporting information for you!
> Also sorry to those who are sick of reading about LEDs in this thread.


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## falcon223 (Nov 5, 2011)

Kaptain. The blackstar is like 1000.00 A 8 bulb Bad Boy is 200.00
Throw in some good bulbs 200.00 or so. That is what 400.00 Of cores 
There is some heat.


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## falcon223 (Nov 5, 2011)

Also I have heard that some people have had trouble getting there LEDs warranted. When thy don't work.


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## PetFlora (Nov 5, 2011)

It's one thing to mention LEDs, or ask a question here, but it seems like we have a Black Star troll in our midst. Clearly that whole dialog could/should have been handled in PMs..., 

but even if quality LEDs cost the same (they don't) and even if they provided the same amount of coverage/$ (they don't), the biggest shortcoming is that the operator/grower cannot adjust the spectrums (V- R/B: 60/40 & F- B/R 60/40), which is important to overall production. Then of course T5ers can change/replace bulbs as needed, and ya can't do that with LEDs. This from someone who owns one, has had 2 transformers blow, and has posted journal elsewhere proving this.

Now please, can we get back to what this thread is about. In case you've forgotten the title is *LED Without LEDs- My First T5 Grow *


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

Wanna bet lol a 500$ blackstar could do that any day bro



UnderCurrentDWC said:


> I would wager to say No $750 L.E.D. can do this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Kaptain. The blackstar is like 1000.00 A 8 bulb Bad Boy is 200.00
> Throw in some good bulbs 200.00 or so. That is what 400.00 Of cores
> There is some heat.


You show me where i can get a four foot had boy with 8 bulbs for 200 l that's a joke i paid 140 for a four foot four bulb sun systems rig lol and the four bulb bad boy was way more expensive than mine lol


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

Your barking up the wrong tree callin me a troll man I support this thread and prof. I answered someone's question on LEDs and then you began the bashing you can call me a troll but forgive me for spreading fact to answer someone's question. You want he thread to return to t5s stop fuckin bringin up LEDs for real. oh and fyl get your facts straight blackstar 500 doesn't cost a thousand dollars it costs 500 bucks Keep it to fact please. Also how can I not hangs the diodes in my led if I want it's not hard it's called unscrew the case and solder in new ones. On noes a transformer blew after 50k hours of use door really??? You wanna start a bash rest we can. If you noticed in my earlier post I complimented t5s. But you just wanna start a how t5 is better than led bash feat because I merely stated its getting harder to justify t5 lighting how can you argue that when prices on plasma rigs are dropping drastically as well as LEDs. Sure maybe not surpassed it in value and efficiency yet but they are beating down the door and they want in to play. You sound ignorant the way you come off man it's quite hilarious really. And you wanna call me he troll lol I'm in this three because I use t5s for my mother room setup like this. I have just as muh right to be here as anyone else seems to me I'm not the one trolling


PetFlora said:


> It's one thing to mention LEDs, or ask a question here, but it seems like we have a Black Star troll in our midst. Clearly that whole dialog could/should have been handled in PMs...,
> 
> but even if quality LEDs cost the same (they don't) and even if they provided the same amount of coverage/$ (they don't), the biggest shortcoming is that the operator/grower cannot adjust the spectrums (V- R/B: 60/40 & F- B/R 60/40), which is important to overall production. Then of course T5ers can change/replace bulbs as needed, and ya can't do that with LEDs. This from someone who owns one, has had 2 transformers blow, and has posted journal elsewhere proving this.
> 
> Now please, can we get back to what this thread is about. In case you've forgotten the title is *LED Without LEDs- My First T5 Grow *


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## Myles117 (Nov 5, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> You show me where i can get a four foot had boy with 8 bulbs for 200 l that's a joke i paid 140 for a four foot four bulb sun systems rig lol and the four bulb bad boy was way more expensive than mine lol


http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/quantum-badboy-t5-ft-lamp-grow-light-p-3353.html

the bulbs arent included on that one tho. 

that place has awesome prices on lighting. i've spent thousands thru them over the years


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## falcon223 (Nov 5, 2011)

Look here Kaptain. 
http://www.thehydrosource.com/Lighting/Fluorescent_Lighting/T5_Fixtures/Quantum_T5_Badboy?zenid=fca33ddb99d6601705f1087efc73943e
8 tube 199.00


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## falcon223 (Nov 5, 2011)

The Quantum Tri-phosphor bulbs are designed for optimum performance with the Fulham Race Horse ballast. These are tuned for max output with the Bad Boy. The BadBoy coupled with Fulham's latest and greatest Race Horse ballasts put out* 28%* more light than the competitions fixtures with the Work Horse 7 with NO additional power consumption!


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/quantum-badboy-t5-ft-lamp-grow-light-p-3353.html
> 
> the bulbs arent included on that one tho.
> 
> that place has awesome prices on lighting. i've spent thousands thru them over the years


Umm yea doesn't. One with actinic bulbs same up front cost as a led can we stop talkin about this now before pet flora starts to cry


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

Lol it doesn't even come with bulbs rofl ha ha ha ha ha I would never buy one of those they are so over priced. I would just go buy all he fullback ballasts and make my own reflector at that price


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## canadian1969 (Nov 5, 2011)

Hmm, with a mix of bulbs and shipping , only $250 to Canada. Sounds like a good deal to me, am I missing something? I really dont care about LED comparison, just how does that rate in comparison to other T5 HO's?


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

It's anfuxkin nice t5 rig I could just build he same thing for cheaper myself is what I was sayin


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## canadian1969 (Nov 5, 2011)

From where would you purchase your parts?


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

Last place I was buying t5 parts from was induction lamps.com think but now I just go through my electrician buddy same prices but he's local and delivers my parts to me. Do a search for ballasts for t5 pretty easy to find what you need to build your own for half the price


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## canadian1969 (Nov 5, 2011)

So you are getting parts wholesale I guess. I wouldn't have a frikkin clue where to start with ballast requirements. never done a T5. Guess I need to find a T5 HO DIY tutorial.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 5, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> Wanna bet lol a 500$ blackstar could do that any day bro


Any time an where!
You talk so big!... Where are your photos?

Does anyone know where the ignore button is?

Kaptin this is the first an last time I'll tell you! Stop insulting other members here. The people your cursing @ actually contribute to this thread!


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

Screw u bro I did nothin to u and u wanna start some shit why don't u go take a look at this thread right here where a guys doin a vert grow with a 300 watt draw panel?? Lol I'm sorry but a led pullin 300 watts can make a bush like that. You got no pull to tell me to stop doin anything. It's not like u showed me something amazing man u showed me a big ass vegetated bush u wanna impress me to the point where I won't say a 300 watt draw panel can do that post some nug pics because veg pics really bro? Everyone and their mouse knows LEDs kick ass for veg I could easily get bushes that big on my 240watt panel sure I'd have to do lots of rotation and moving but I could do it. If your gonna try and impress me at least try with somthin other than pics from veg that means nothing. 

Not only that this is a waste of space and time ur arguing with me about something we both agree works I LIKE THIS STYLE SETUP. Your the one who brought up I doubt a 700$led could do this lol. You started it not me

Nice pic of yourself lol


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## canadian1969 (Nov 5, 2011)

Well, thats enough for me, too bad this thread got all out of control. unsub'd.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 5, 2011)

Keon and everyone else plz... im traveling and don't have time to babysit..plz try to keep this thread a peaceful place.. 
This is not a LED thread and those discussions should be kept to PM PLZ...
KRON,FLORA,DDWC I respect all of your support and were here to help others... 
This is for T5 users and noobs. We will only make direct observed comparisons based on experimentation and facts.. led is viable for some it does work.. and ut is proven tech. That being said it is a smaller footprint and does have.limited "throw" you can't argue with physics..
Further flaming in any direction will result in my personal attention and a full on ban from this forum. 
Many forums have issues that get out if hand this will not be one of them.
KRON I challenge your blackstar comment and until you can do a side by side plz don't make comparisons..FLORA HAS PROVEN HIS 1000W IS NOT AS GOOD AS T5


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## novice11 (Nov 5, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> What are "Red Lifes" and where do you get them? Sounds like something I could use for the flowering stage of my CFL grow....


AKA Red Suns, they are made by UVL. Google UVL RED SUN or go to aquariumspecialty.com.


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

He made a veg comparison bro there's info and pics and proof all over he web that LEDs can easilly achieve that pic he posted. So if I wanna talk fact lets talk fact where's his flower shots I wasn't referring to flower til u and him brought it up. What i said is fact. Don't believe it go buy a panel and try for yourself. I don't need to do a side by side to know that a 300 watt draw panel can vegetate a bush lol now if u wanna talk flower i won't comment. Why? Because I haven't flowered with a t5 setup like this I'm doing mothers with one right now. You won't see me talk about what i do not know as fact. He put the challenge out I merely answered it. Also if u notice I told the noob LEDs were too expensive and go t5 but I guess no one cares and wants to look at this objectively and fair. Sure I'll do a side by side flower someday when I got $ for more lights but at the moment i don't. WHICH IS WHY I DIDNT COMMENT ON FLOWER!!! Only veg. Everything was totally peaceful until I got called a troll for helpin someone with a question they posted don't like it? Don't call me a troll lol save it for the real ones. Not for someone who just has a slightly different opinion than you. He swears like I was sayin these lights don't work as well if not better than LEDs none of which I said. In fact I didn't Ben make a direct comparison. This all stemmed from my comment of led tech is getting cheaper therefore makin it harder to justify this style setup. You tell me how that's insulting to any members or even sayin LEDs are better than this setup. It's not it's merely an observation on market price and I got jumped on. So please dont begin pointing the finger at me prof I'll leave lol. See I'm not a troll as said before sure this threads beneficial to me but I've got some courtesy unlike some people in here hat seem to take things way to personally. I'd leave before u would need to ban me all it would take would be askin me to go. But I'm not jus gonna lay down and let people call me a troll for thin to help someone when my opinions just different. 

I'm allowed an opinion just like everyone else on here without gettin bashed for it 



pr0fesseur said:


> Keon and everyone else plz... im traveling and don't have time to babysit..plz try to keep this thread a
> 
> peaceful place..
> This is not a LED thread and those discussions should be kept to PM PLZ...
> ...


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

Prof if u would like me to leave please pm me and I'll gladly unsub for you.


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## hyroot (Nov 5, 2011)

Im the one that proved the t5 out peforms a 1000 w hps. I posted pics on here and in my journal and I'll post more. After they wake up. Also the blackstar 600 which is 500 watts. Sells at light house and and gotham for 899.99 + tax and shipping. So that is over a 1000. All the other t5 lights that come with shitty bulbs sell for around the same price as the bb. But the bulbs are going to be replaced anyway. So that is just redundant kron to say that. The bb is the only t5 that can run on a 240 and has reflectors like that. If you built your own the ballast alone would cost around 180 so that would cost more to build. 
TA DAAAAAA


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## organicbynature (Nov 5, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Im the one that proved the t5 out peforms a 1000 w hps. I postd pics on here andbin my journal amd ill post more. After they wake up. Also the blackstar 600 which is 500 watts. Sells at light house and and gotham for 899.99 + tax amd shipping. So that. Over a 1000. All the other t5 lights that come with shitty bulbs sell for around the same price as the bb. But the bulbs are going to be replaced anyway. So that is just redundant kron to say that. The bb is te only t5 that can run on a 240 and has reflectors like that. If you built your own the ballast alone would cost around 180 so that would cost more to build.
> TA DAAAAAA


This will be my last post in this thread discussing LEDs, since it seems to make people crazy for some reason (which I still think is really strange for this thread).

Your information is (blatantly) incorrect. The panel you mention sells for $629 on their site. If you call them to order (and maybe otherwise?) they will comp you shipping and you also don't have to pay tax (unless you're in NY, I imagine). They will also sell it to you at a lower price if you call them, my guess is you could get it for $600 shipped.

From what I have seen, LEDs work great as long as you get a quality panel, which there seem to be several different makes for at this point. Also from what I have seen, Blackstars seem to have the best value of those companies (I personally have panels from three different companies at this point - none of them were purchased on a special arrangement). I think Blackstars are the only ones that compete with T5s in terms of price. Here is a great comparison grow of three different panels, if you're interested. Here is another grow, this one using two 500 watt Blackstar panels.

That said, I really appreciate this thread for what it offers. I haven't seen any others like it and would really like to see more people try this, as I hope to myself. PAR T5s seem to me to be neither better nor worse than LEDs (unless you get crappy LEDs, of course), simply two different, quality options for PAR lighting.

I suggest everyone goes and enjoys a bowl of something grown under their favorite type of lighting and we'll see who chills out the most.


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## hyroot (Nov 5, 2011)

I have built an led before and it took 200 hours to put together and sodder the mother board and everything together and only had 14 light diodes on it. But it wasn't for grow. I was building a photon synth. . Similar the brain of synth keyboard. Every time each diode would light up it would play a different tone. And you could play a 16 bar easily with that. My point its not as easy as you think to build. You mess up one sodder point on the mother board and you have to start all over.

I went through 3 mother boards til I got it right.


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## organicbynature (Nov 5, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I have built an led before and it took 200 hours to put together and sodder the mother board and everthing together and omly had 14 light diodes on it. But itvwasnt for grow. I was building a photon synth. . Similar the brain of synth keyboard. Every time eaxh diode would light up it would play a different tone. And you could play a 16 bar easiky wiyh that. My point its not as easy as you think to build. You mess up one sodder point on the mother board and you have to start all over.


That sounds pretty cool. 

Can you do it with T5s?


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## hyroot (Nov 5, 2011)

I went to audio school, we had to learn how to build vu meters and repair mixing boards in one course, A lot of us got done much faster than the teacher anticipated so he showed us how to do those. Im sure it can be done. it would take up a lot more space for an instrument


also this was the led i was referring to which Ive seen in action 

http://www.lighthousehydro.com/led-grow-lights/lighthouse-blackstar-600w-led-grow-light-2w-cree.html


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## Kaptain Kron (Nov 5, 2011)

That's all well and fine I'm talking about veg take a look at eBay or call Gotham direct u will get it for way cheaper. That price is exhorbiant and not what they sell for. I'm not going to even comment on flower because I haven't flowered with a t5 rig is it really necessary to carry on a pissing match that no ones gonna win. Your using he same spectrums LEDs use only difference is you may be putting down more intensity depending on what light you wanna compare your t5 rig to. 

I wasn't refereeing to building an led but if you want to get into that I can do that too. Speaking of sound engineers my rather was vp of sales with d&r consoles when I was a child and has been in the indistry for forty years I've been soldering since before I knew how to ride a bike. Solder takes patience a steady hand and a knowledge of heat transfer. I'm also a welder. 

And I'm going to end this with one final statement


Par>everything it's all that matters



hyroot said:


> Im the one that proved the t5 out peforms a 1000 w hps. I posted pics on here and in my journal and I'll post more. After they wake up. Also the blackstar 600 which is 500 watts. Sells at light house and and gotham for 899.99 + tax and shipping. So that is over a 1000. All the other t5 lights that come with shitty bulbs sell for around the same price as the bb. But the bulbs are going to be replaced anyway. So that is just redundant kron to say that. The bb is the only t5 that can run on a 240 and has reflectors like that. If you built your own the ballast alone would cost around 180 so that would cost more to build.
> TA DAAAAAA


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## hyroot (Nov 5, 2011)

Do you even know.what context means. You interprate everything the wrong way. I showed a specific price listing and you still argue that. in the first post I was talking about t5's. In the next one I was using building an led as an example of building a light. So get off your high horse and stop bullshitting to make yourself look better. Even though it doesnt work. Dont say another thing without showing some proof. I looked at your profile and no grow pics......... When I talked about audio school , I was just explaining why I happened to make that. You try so hard to compete with every thing everyone says. You should change your name to Captain One Upper


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## MurshDawg (Nov 5, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Do you even know.what context means. You interprate everything the wrong way. I showed a specific price listing and you still argue that. in the first post I was talking about t5's. In the next one I was using building an led as an example of building a light. So get off your high horse and stop bullshitting to make yourself look better. Even though it doesnt work. Dont say another thing without showing some proof. I looked at your profile and no grow pics......... When I talked about audio school , I was just explaining why I happened to make that. You try so hard to compete with every thing everyone says. You should change your name to Captain One Upper


LMAO "Captain 1-upp3r" good lols
PS Use your spell checker, Kron. It'll make you sound smarter. Now back to our regularly scheduled program [video=youtube;PnBIVmzXLLs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnBIVmzXLLs[/video]


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 5, 2011)

*Yeah!!!... Regularly scheduled programing!!!!*
[video=youtube;oOH3NH-XKg4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oOH3NH-XKg4&feature=related[/video]


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 6, 2011)

Kaptain Kron said:


> He made a veg comparison bro there's info and pics and proof all over he web that LEDs can easilly achieve that pic he posted. So if I wanna talk fact lets talk fact where's his flower shots I wasn't referring to flower til u and him brought it up. What i said is fact. Don't believe it go buy a panel and try for yourself. I don't need to do a side by side to know that a 300 watt draw panel can vegetate a bush lol now if u wanna talk flower i won't comment. Why? Because I haven't flowered with a t5 setup like this I'm doing mothers with one right now. You won't see me talk about what i do not know as fact. He put the challenge out I merely answered it. Also if u notice I told the noob LEDs were too expensive and go t5 but I guess no one cares and wants to look at this objectively and fair. Sure I'll do a side by side flower someday when I got $ for more lights but at the moment i don't. WHICH IS WHY I DIDNT COMMENT ON FLOWER!!! Only veg. Everything was totally peaceful until I got called a troll for helpin someone with a question they posted don't like it? Don't call me a troll lol save it for the real ones. Not for someone who just has a slightly different opinion than you. He swears like I was sayin these lights don't work as well if not better than LEDs none of which I said. In fact I didn't Ben make a direct comparison. This all stemmed from my comment of led tech is getting cheaper therefore makin it harder to justify this style setup. You tell me how that's insulting to any members or even sayin LEDs are better than this setup. It's not it's merely an observation on market price and I got jumped on. So please dont begin pointing the finger at me prof I'll leave lol. See I'm not a troll as said before sure this threads beneficial to me but I've got some courtesy unlike some people in here hat seem to take things way to personally. I'd leave before u would need to ban me all it would take would be askin me to go. But I'm not jus gonna lay down and let people call me a troll for thin to help someone when my opinions just different.
> 
> I'm allowed an opinion just like everyone else on here without gettin bashed for it


Indeed, everyone is allowd an opinion, and by all means we can argue these thing till were blue in the face, however please dont use my thread for this... theres now 3 pages of this crap from everyone...
Im not singling anyone out but should you guys want to continue this arguement pleas do it in PM....
I do remember that I posted about LED being too expensive.
HOWEVER if youll note that i am using a premium Ballast &fixture you can find MUCH cheeper fixtures out there under 200$
and the bulbs i chose can be had for a deal if you buy them all @ once... 
FACT 1 is unless your LED fixture has 20+ colors it cannot match the spectrum of this T5 setup as LED have a very FINITE spectrum.
FACT 2 LED just doesent have the footprint of T5 and is still using the HID model of one light source in a small area. thus suffers from the inverse square law more so than T5. 
FACT 3 Were no longer going to argue this point its moot. Until we have a side by side comparison were all WRONG...

This is why i tend to stay away from the which is better arguement...




Lastly, I am in the process of designing an external T5 ballast got the CAD drawing done last night now to buy the parts....
This will be a T5 retro-outro where the ballasts will be able to be placed up to 8 feet outside of the fixture while only needing simple install into your existing fixture stay tuned as I am purchasing the parts from CHINA they will take a few weeks to arrive.
you can use ANY ballasts as well which is a great thing IMHO


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## PetFlora (Nov 6, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Keon and everyone else plz... im traveling and don't have time to babysit..plz try to keep this thread a peaceful place..
> This is not a LED thread and those discussions should be kept to PM PLZ...
> KRON,FLORA,DDWC I respect all of your support and were here to help others...
> This is for T5 users and noobs. We will only make direct observed comparisons based on experimentation and facts.. led is viable for some it does work.. and ut is proven tech. That being said it is a smaller footprint and does have.limited "throw" you can't argue with physics..
> ...


*Pr0f: *This is why i said some time ago a journal is best because you can delete A'holes who do not respect the integrity of the thread. I believe it was Hyroot who had the 1000w result. 

Anyone reading this in the future will probably get turned off _(maybe that's what the few Troll A'holes want)_. Hell, I am, but feel I owe you to show what T5s *(not LEDs)* can do in Bloom. I'm starting to see some trics now.


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## PetFlora (Nov 6, 2011)

kaptain kron said:


> prof if u would like me to leave please pm me and i'll gladly unsub for you.


*yes! Yes! Yes!*


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## PetFlora (Nov 6, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> This will be my last post in this thread discussing LEDs, since it seems to make people crazy for some reason (which I still think is really strange for this thread).
> 
> Your information is (blatantly) incorrect. The panel you mention sells for $629 on their site. If you call them to order (and maybe otherwise?) they will comp you shipping and you also don't have to pay tax (unless you're in NY, I imagine). They will also sell it to you at a lower price if you call them, my guess is you could get it for $600 shipped.
> 
> ...


A Tool (for saying this is the last time you will discuss LEDS then carry on for 2 paragraphs) and a Troll (that should be obvious). I don't mean that in a bad way. hahahahahahaha


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## canadian1969 (Nov 6, 2011)

Dudes, was PM'd things calmed down in here, so back, In a hopeful effort to get back to NON LED lighting issues....

Does anyone know anything about UVB Narrowband (310-315nm) flourescent lighting versus UVA broadband (315+nm) and how plants respond to either/both? I am very interested in this, along with how much UVA the T5 HO's can create and if they create any UVB, safety issues, plant tissue damage and UV production levels that plants actually respond to, either in terms of exciting growth or in defensive oil productions.


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## Myles117 (Nov 6, 2011)

thats a great question. i know too much UV light can damage plants but in small amounts it provokes the plant into defensive oil production to protect it potential seeds as they develop. Not sure bout the different nm outputs and how they differ in relation to the plant. 

when i would use reptisun 10.0 CFLs, i put them on a seperate timer for 6 hours a day centered in middle of the 12 hours of light. i also had a kill switch at the growroom door so when i was checking on them n the lights were on i could turn the UV light off seperately.


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## canadian1969 (Nov 6, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> when i would use reptisun 10.0 CFLs, i put them on a seperate timer for 6 hours a day centered in middle of the 12 hours of light. i also had a kill switch at the growroom door so when i was checking on them n the lights were on i could turn the UV light off seperately.


What kind of results did you get? Some say it increases potency, others say they are useless. I know the plants produce 6 cannabinoids and probably additional other plant oils, but does it actually create additional &#916;9 ?


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## Myles117 (Nov 6, 2011)

what i saw was more trichomes on the plant.

I heard that trichomes react very strangely with light. they actually obsorb and redirect it away. scientists arent yet sure if this is essential for assembly of THC or not but it def is a form of "sunblock" for the plants. so if there are UV rays htta could damage the calyxes n their contents the plant will put more energy into trichome production

i was very happy with the results


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## canadian1969 (Nov 6, 2011)

So the 10 stands for 10% UVB output for that bulb right? Guess the rest us UVA, so growth promoting.... So how do we achieve this with T5 HO's? Seems like the addition of even 1 tube per array would be a smart thing to do.


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## Myles117 (Nov 6, 2011)

i hang the cfls in with the t5s but if u want all t5s then yeah i guess youd just use a general ratio of UV bulb to total bulbs in setup. maybe one per every 4 or 6 regular bulbs?


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## organicbynature (Nov 6, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> A Tool (for saying this is the last time you will discuss LEDS then carry on for 2 paragraphs) and a Troll (that should be obvious). I don't mean that in a bad way. hahahahahahaha


You need to adjust your spectrums, PetFlora, your bud is making you paranoid. 

There's no trolls here, just some good folks getting in a huff with each other about nothing.

If you look back through my posts you'll see I've been nothing but respectful and have done my best to be helpful. I have not attacked anyone and have even tried to provide links to back up what I've written. *I like this thread *and really can't understand why people are getting so upset.

As with those of hyroot, I've really enjoyed your posts (except for the ones where I or someone else is being attacked), and am really interested in what's happening here. Seriously, brother, can we all smoke the peace pipe now?


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## MurshDawg (Nov 7, 2011)

canadian1969 said:


> Dudes, was PM'd things calmed down in here, so back, In a hopeful effort to get back to NON LED lighting issues....
> 
> Does anyone know anything about UVB Narrowband (310-315nm) flourescent lighting versus UVA broadband (315+nm) and how plants respond to either/both? I am very interested in this, along with how much UVA the T5 HO's can create and if they create any UVB, safety issues, plant tissue damage and UV production levels that plants actually respond to, either in terms of exciting growth or in defensive oil productions.


From my understanding Actinics have plenty UVA and a little UVB. I have 4 actinic bulbs 2 that peak at 420nm and two that peak at 454nm. I also have two red suns they peak at 633nm and two 3000k spectralux. I am thinking of replacing the 3000k with two coral wave or reef waves. it would be the shit if we could find a 660 nm t5 bulb.


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## canadian1969 (Nov 7, 2011)

Cool, but how do you know how much UVA/B those Atinics put out? I think UVA peters out before 400nm 
(p.s. was just at the local aquarium store this morning, muhahahaha) think I'll start with a 5% UVB for flower (just a CFL for now as I am small time micro).


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## MurshDawg (Nov 7, 2011)

look at the PAR charts that are provided for the bulbs you are looking at kinda like this


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## canadian1969 (Nov 7, 2011)

Yeah, I know, but you are saying "your" bulbs produce UVA/B right? What are the spectrographs for those models looking like? 
Or maybe not yours , but there ARE Atinics that do, guess I misunderstood.


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## Myles117 (Nov 7, 2011)

sounds great bro, hope the UV brings you bountiful trichomes


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 7, 2011)

canadian1969 said:


> Cool, but how do you know how much UVA/B those Atinics put out? I think UVA peters out before 400nm
> (p.s. was just at the local aquarium store this morning, muhahahaha) think I'll start with a 5% UVB for flower (just a CFL for now as I am small time micro).


Check out CANNAWIZARD he has his thread ALL about UVA/B...


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## cannawizard (Nov 7, 2011)

**this is a great thread about T5 grows and excellent data/inputs for anyone interested to replicate the method  ..lets just stay on course~

--cheers Prof.


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## PetFlora (Nov 8, 2011)

3 full weeks of flower. Just one plant boyzzzz. Look at all the fn colas. She has at least doubled in volume since 11/2 pics

View attachment 1877413View attachment 1877420View attachment 1877422


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## AssDan (Nov 8, 2011)

Ok guys. I've gone all in on this method. I converted my 2' T5 fixtures to HO and I have 7 bulbs on order from aquarium specialty. Here's my question as I wait for the next 3 weeks for my bulbs to come; do I have enough red in my spectrum? I keep second guessing myself. Here's the setup, 2 4' HO lamps and 4 2' HO lamps. I have ordered the following;

4'
UVL Red Sun
UVL 454

2'
2 Fiji Sun
UVL super actinic
UVL 75.25
UVL Red Sun

My plan is to switch the 75.25 for a red Sun in flower. I look at this and keep thinking there's not enough red.

Also, I stared a grow journal to document my results. 

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/484948-my-3rd-grow-turning-novice.html#post6592560 

I hope you guys will have me drop in occasionally to ask questions/update my progress. 

Thanks.


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## MurshDawg (Nov 8, 2011)

That sounds like an excellent spread, bro!


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## organicbynature (Nov 8, 2011)

I got the spectrum graphs for ZooMed bulbs through email, and since I didn't recall seeing them in this thread and was unsure about the graphs on DrFostersSmith, which was the only place I could find any for these bulbs, I thought I would share them here.

Hopefully this will be helpful to someone.

Flora Sun


Coral Sun


Ultra Sun


Ocean Sun


I'm sorry the images themselves aren't labeled, but that's how they sent them to me. Here is the accompanying text:



> Thank you for contacting us. We have gathered the following spectrum graphs for our 24 watt T5HO lamps. Please let me know if you have any further questions.
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> ...


The Coral Sun looks like a fine super actinic alternative, and the Flora Sun doesn't look bad to me either. It has a high green spike, but can't that just replace the 75.25 (not directly, but by using a more targeted blue in its place)? The graph also makes it look like it has a lot of yellow, but it's mostly 630 nm and up. It has some high peaks that are off target, but they're pretty narrow with wide intensity right where we want it.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 8, 2011)

AssDan said:


> Ok guys. I've gone all in on this method. I converted my 2' T5 fixtures to HO and I have 7 bulbs on order from aquarium specialty. Here's my question as I wait for the next 3 weeks for my bulbs to come; do I have enough red in my spectrum? I keep second guessing myself. Here's the setup, 2 4' HO lamps and 4 2' HO lamps. I have ordered the following;
> 
> 4'
> UVL Red Sun
> ...


You could replace the super actinic with another fiji... again blue is included on the fiji's


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 8, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> **this is a great thread about T5 grows and excellent data/inputs for anyone interested to replicate the method  ..lets just stay on course~
> 
> --cheers Prof.


Thanks WizRd

side note thers a gentleman asking about UVA/B/C i sent him to your thread..  I do have a question though ive seen a good deal of uvc articles that pertain to plant pests... have you had any experience with short bursts of uvc for this purpose? 
especially urban garden mag sept 2009 issue. 
ATTENTION UV-C IS VERY DANGEROUS AND DESTROYS DNA YES YOUR DNA.. AND PLANT MATTER IT KILLS(ANIMALS PLANTS HUMANS) SO BE CAREFUL!!
-Quote the lawyers


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## cannawizard (Nov 8, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Thanks WizRd
> 
> side note thers a gentleman asking about UVA/B/C i sent him to your thread..  I do have a question though ive seen a good deal of uvc articles that pertain to plant pests... have you had any experience with short bursts of uvc for this purpose?
> especially urban garden mag sept 2009 issue.
> ...


*yessir, i sometimes use uvc attached to some handheld device, and expo rate is just short intervals of 5mins  --you can get UVc bulbs online~

(also using UVc as some sort of a "stress" reaction before harvest.. try it )


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 9, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *yessir, i sometimes use uvc attached to some handheld device, and expo rate is just short intervals of 5mins  --you can get UVc bulbs online~
> 
> (also using UVc as some sort of a "stress" reaction before harvest.. try it )


I LOVE WALMART!
http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product.do?product_id=13916979&sourceid=1500000000000007346330&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=13916979


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## PetFlora (Nov 9, 2011)

FYI: Now this looks interesting. A 6 X 6 pyramid tent (they have other sizes) for <$160. The pyramid is above the basic height, would provide venting space. Said to set up easily. Has steel frame. Available in silver (don't know what color the inside is, assuming same Should hold a Bad Boy or 2...

http://worldwantads.com/index.php?do=/store/66-x-66-pyramid-roof-pop-up-canopy-black/


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## poind3xter (Nov 9, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> FYI: Now this looks interesting. A 6 X 6 pyramid tent (they have other sizes) for <$160. The pyramid is above the basic height, would provide venting space. Said to set up easily. Has steel frame. Available in silver (don't know what color the inside is, assuming same Should hold a Bad Boy or 2...
> 
> http://worldwantads.com/index.php?do=/store/66-x-66-pyramid-roof-pop-up-canopy-black/


Could definitely be interesting. 

As for me I'm about a week or two from buying my bulbs. Just trying to do a bit more research first. I've now got a 16-bulb T5 setup so I'm pretty stoked and I can't wait to get started with this new style of lighting.


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## organicbynature (Nov 9, 2011)

Lately I've been pouring through spectrum graphs, trying to decide (for like the third time) what I want my T5 set up to look like. Looking at these graphs, I feel like there is an inconsistency regarding the Red Sun graph and I wonder what it means.

The Red Sun is billed as a 633 nm light, but that's not what their spectrum graph makes it look like, as you can clearly see when you blow it up a little and throw in some more unit lines:



Has this been discussed? I don't remember it coming up in the thread, previously.

I see two possible conclusions that can be drawn from this:

1. While the Red Sun has some light output at around 633 nm, the bulk of it is actually closer to 615 nm, which, incidentally, is yellow/orange on any other spectrum graph. If this were the case, the bulb is not helping people as much as (or at least the way that) they think it is. Though, if the contention is Red Suns do substantially help growing even if their spectrum is as represented in this graph, then light in that range has been underestimated (the supposedly unfortunate yellow spike on the 75.25 is right in this range, for instance).

or

2. The Red Sun peeks at 633nm and the graph is off. This does not seem at all unlikely to me, but I want this graph to be accurate. If it isn't, how can we have faith in any of the spectrum graphs? Certainly they're not random, but how should the extent of their (in?)accuracy influence our judgement of different bulbs, especially when comparing between brands (which may have differences in the quality of their graphs). Do we judge some bulbs too harshly, considering the bulb we hold it up against has a questionable spectrum graph to begin with? (I don't mean the Red Sun specifically here, probably the Fiji is the best example of this at this point)

So what is everyone's take on this? How do you feel about your Red Sun and its graph? Is there another possible conclusion?

Thinking about this has brought me back to one of Prof's first graphs, that of the photosynthetically active spectrum:

View attachment 1880301

This reminds me that we're not necessarily looking to dial in on a few specific wavelengths at the exclusion of all others (which is actually what most appeals to me about these T5s as an alternative to another spectrum-specific technology that I will not name). 

This graph shows the relative ability for plants to make oxygen (as a result of photosynthesis) using light at varying spectrums. You'll note that while light is used most efficiently in the reds and blues/violets, it is still used across other wavelengths, including throughout the green and yellow areas. This makes sense, given what we've learned about the worthwhile inclusion of some green, or even far red (why do we include far red again?) in the spectrum mix.

None of the light produced by these bulbs is "wasted". It's just not used as efficiently in certain spectrums. Does that mean those spectrums aren't worth having? No, I don't think so. Again we can look at how the inclusion of some green has come up. What it means is we want to have the bulk of our light in the optimum spectrums, but we're probably enhancing things in ways we don't specifically understand by including lower amounts of light in non-ideal spectrums. I want to compare the reds and blues to N-P-K, the macro nutrients, and the remaining spectrums to micronutrients. They're still important, you just don't need as much.

I've been looking hard at that Flora Sun lately, and so just for kicks I'll throw the graph for that bulb up again, this time with the PAR curve pasted over it:



I want to look at some of the comparable bulbs in this light, now. I'm feeling pretty high on the Flora Sun with the inclusion of Coral Wave for the violets (420nm+/-) and far red. Sure, there's an unnecessary green spike, but it's very narrow, so there shouldn't actually be much light put out in that range, right? The big yellow spike is another one in the range of what the Red Sun graph shows, so I'm not seeing much harm in that either.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 9, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Lately I've been pouring through spectrum graphs, trying to decide (for like the third time) what I want my T5 set up to look like. Looking at these graphs, I feel like there is an inconsistency regarding the Red Sun graph and I wonder what it means.
> 
> The Red Sun is billed as a 633 nm light, but that's not what their spectrum graph makes it look like, as you can clearly see when you blow it up a little and throw in some more unit lines:
> 
> ...


Love the Research and appreciate your interest in this thread. 

Firstly the bulb spectrums were adjusted a while back and can be located in my journal and in my SIG. Another member put them all into MATLAB and actually mapped them all together with labels... I find that were not trying to limit the bulbs that we use and my decisions on bulbs were purely because i needed to get 8 bulbs and had to cram in as Much in as possible to maximize my ROI. I chose each bulb based on results of other scientific papers and the graphs that were available @ the time. 

Second It is More important if you really understand the Science behind the way the graphs represent "what" they measure
The higher the beak the more energy is there.. and the more spikes and the higher they are the more energy is divided among them... so that big green spike is "Bigger" in total energy than most of the smaller spikes put together...

Third Plants have the ability to use ALL light to make food this curve shows how efficient the light at that spectrum... If you have a large spike in the right area it is more efficient at that spectrum therefore the plant makes more food for itself... Yes, light IS needed needed At those lower spectrum and MOST T5 already provide them EXCEPT the specialty bulbs "Actinics" and the like. the 75.25 provides what i think is a good peak at every key spectra evenly across the graph where its needed.

Providing 200% more light than is PUR (Percent of Useable Radiation) is a waste of electricity, and $$$.
Thats why it is essential to calculate PUR and thats what some people dont understand.. you could do for example..
PAR/PUR+PUR/PAR and see how your lights measure up... against others i mean. the larger spikes make up a larger percentage of energy so if they are outside the sensitivity curve they do no more than "light" that space. 

When i say that High intenisty solutions are 10% par you have to look @ the TOTAL energy that is beyond the curve and deduct that from the total of light measured. Then of the total spectral curve what is left... bout 10-20%...AT THE MOST!

Those 2 spikes in that T5 graph make over 40% of the light that bulb emits...and its only 10% efficient... less efficient than a solar panel  and thats not very green now is it? 

Last i spent over 6 months reading and learning about the EM spectrum, phosphors, ballasts, how to measure par/pur and scientific journals of botany and plant science. It took me ages to find the 1 product that would last, was worth my dollar and would suit my purpose with the ease of customizability. I started like everyone else but saw Serious FLAWS built into current and upcoming tech. I still have various gripes, and tech that Ive designed just because no one is smart enough to figure it out yet. If i could afford it i would build/buy an auto lab and grow in that. I am not in this for personal gain i really do think that by contributing and by making this process as efficient and practical as possible. nothing fancy was used. everything i used was readily available and the very best i could buy for longevity. Survival growing if you will. My setup was Extremly portable and would traven in a large duffle bag and pvc/foam tube for the bulbs. 

When i can CAD out my design i can build a tent that will be The perfect T5 Super Tent. have Drawn out how to design the tent and get ventilation by the tube as well...it will fit with my external ballast pack 
I might get a prototype built by spring have to gather the money first.


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## organicbynature (Nov 9, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Love the Research and appreciate your interest in this thread.
> 
> Firstly the bulb spectrums were adjusted a while back and can be located in my journal and in my SIG. Another member put them all into MATLAB and actually mapped them all together with labels... I find that were not trying to limit the bulbs that we use and my decisions on bulbs were purely because i needed to get 8 bulbs and had to cram in as Much in as possible to maximize my ROI. I chose each bulb based on results of other scientific papers and the graphs that were available @ the time.


I didn't realize you had a separate grow journal, I'll check that out!

I actually referenced that post by brainalive before I posted . That was very cool. He actually brings up another point, that photosynthetic action spectrums are based on observations of specific plants in controlled environments. We do not have data for the photosynthetic action spectrum for MJ. There is, however, a graph on wikipedia showing the reflective properties of MJ. It is there to show how Cannabis reflects light differently from other plants, which helps in its detection. If it has notably different reflection than most plants, wouldn't that mean its absorption (action spectrum?) is also different? Can we extrapolate the one from the other? Here is the chart I'm speaking of:
View attachment 1880510

Also, what (if anything) are you saying about the Red Sun bulb here? Did he use the same curve but move it over so that it peaked at 633 nm? If so, do we know that this is correct and what does this mean for the accuracy of spectrum graphs?



pr0fesseur said:


> Second It is More important if you really understand the Science behind the way the graphs represent "what" they measure
> The higher the beak the more energy is there.. and the more spikes and the higher they are the more energy is divided among them... so that big green spike is "Bigger" in total energy than most of the smaller spikes put together...


This is not how I was reading it, not that I'm arguing. Certainly the higher the peak, the more energy is used, but can't we better measure the amount of "undesired wavelength" by looking at the total area under the curve for the range of those wavelengths (e.g. 500nm to 600nm), rather than the height of a particular peak or two that falls within the range?

Or, to put it another way, if one bulb has a 4 y-unit peak between 570 and 580 nm, isn't that the same as a 2 y-unit peak between 565 and 585 nm? Obviously I don't know what the the unit is on the y-axis. Is that why I'm understanding things differently?



pr0fesseur said:


> Third Plants have the ability to use ALL light to make food this curve shows how efficient the light at that spectrum... If you have a large spike in the right area it is more efficient at that spectrum therefore the plant makes more food for itself... Yes, light IS needed needed At those lower spectrum and MOST T5 already provide them EXCEPT the specialty bulbs "Actinics" and the like. the 75.25 provides what i think is a good peak at every key spectra evenly across the graph where its needed.
> 
> Providing 200% more light than is PUR (Percent of Useable Radiation) is a waste of electricity, and $$$.
> Thats why it is essential to calculate PUR and thats what some people dont understand.. you could do for example..
> ...


I get this, thanks! I wasn't conscious of the 200% of PUR rule, though I'm still not entirely sure of what it means in a practical sense (how do I translate what the bulb is putting out in relation to the capacity of my canopy?)



pr0fesseur said:


> *Those 2 spikes in that T5 graph make over 40% of the light that bulb emits*...and its only 10% efficient... less efficient than a solar panel  and thats not very green now is it?


As I wrote earlier, this is not how I understand the graphs. If you could help me understand them better, I would appreciate it!  Why are we looking at the height of the peak to determine energy use, rather than the total area under the curve?


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## spex420 (Nov 10, 2011)

what tubes would you suggest i pick if i had a 4 bulbs floro

and should i switch bulbs for flower or does it cover the whole spectrum?


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 10, 2011)

Just awesome Prof, keep it coming... I look forward to seeing your ultimate lighting recommendation. Can I as, Why do you need a separate ballast?


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 10, 2011)

Have you seen this web site for CFL's:
http://cfl-growlight.com/store/

Some really good prices on cfl bulbs it appears...


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 10, 2011)

spex420 said:


> what tubes would you suggest i pick if i had a 4 bulbs floro
> 
> and should i switch bulbs for flower or does it cover the whole spectrum?


Fiji
75.25
redsun/life
454

Should get you through both phases.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 10, 2011)

Prof, just curious why you are using fluorescent tubes and not the cfl bulbs. You get much more concentrated light with the bulbs don;t you?


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## AltarNation (Nov 10, 2011)

Been browsing a lot of cool vert. setups lately... was considering a vert T5 setup, but the space I'm working in is so awkwardly shaped that I'm pretty limited in my options.

So now I am thinking, why not diagonal T5 arrangement... I am thinking that I will build up a couple platforms to make a semi-vert grow setup and maximize light exposure.

On the left: The first picture shows what I'm doing now, with a flat canopy and a lot of LSTing to maximize exposure.

On the right: The second part shows what I'm proposing... I would probably still do LST in this arrangement, but could work with the light position to maximize exposure to my unevenly heighted canopies...

I THINK I'd be getting more light exposure overall with the latter design... but I'm not going to waste my time if the difference is negligible... it seems like, with the plants trained right so that there's an angle to each canopy, it might be better... but then I feel like that would put me back at square one, with the light surface maximized... there's no way to increase the surface area of the light, obviously, but this MIGHT be a way to compensate for the fact that my LST'd colas are never all the same height... (Not interested in trying to SCROG, it's way too tight in this space.) In theory I can twist and turn each plant as necessary to get at least some of the shorter colas just a close as the tall ones...


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## hyroot (Nov 10, 2011)

im turning the 1k back on I havent sold it yet an have not got enough money together in time to get another t5...... Next time though....


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## PetFlora (Nov 11, 2011)

*AlterNation: *The photos I have been posting are of ONE plant. when it outgrew my available height I begrudgingly snapped it based on input given here. That plant now has a canopy ~ 2 X 4! So I would say FIM, then force each new main branch left to right, keeping the plant on the middle step. Instead off a tall grow pot use something low but wide (~ 12 X 24) that allows the roots to spread out.


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## MurshDawg (Nov 11, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *AlterNation: *The photos I have been posting are of ONE plant. when it outgrew my available height I begrudgingly snapped it based on input given here. That plant now has a canopy ~ 2 X 4! So I would say FIM, then force each new main branch left to right, keeping the plant on the middle step. Instead off a tall grow pot use something low but wide (~ 12 X 24) that allows the roots to spread out.


Hey PetFlora, Thanks for posting on my thread, bro!


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## novice11 (Nov 11, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Fiji
> 75.25
> redsun/life
> 454
> ...


I agree but I would swap out the 75.25 for a Coral Wave for flower/bloom. It will give you some actinic (420nm/blue) light which the plants love, and also add some far red light.


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## PetFlora (Nov 12, 2011)

Finally getting some cool weather here (hope it lasts for ~ 30 days. Ambient room temp down 10 degrees, which should help BK-1 to bundle up in trics.


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## AltarNation (Nov 12, 2011)

Lost my circulation fan to electronic failure (should have gotten the oldschool kind without the electronics)--and unfortunately the only other fan I have handy is a box fan, which doesn't really fit anywhere. Using it as best I can though.

Leaves are showing some stress... not sure what's going wrong exactly, but I got a lot of yellowed leaves after it wilted when the fan failed and they needed watering. It is ALSO possible it was just nutrient burn, (or a nutrient lock out from salts more likely) as they had been fed the night before and were about due for a water flush.

Is it likely to just lose some leaves to heat stress in this way? I lost my circulation fan, not the exhaust fan. And the wilted bottom leaves stayed green at first, just wilted, then they went yellow while the rest of them perked back up. I thought it was nutrient burn so I flushed... but did not notice the fan right away I think.

Anyway, the buds are getting big and beautiful, I just hope I don't lose any more fan leaves. Here's a pic of what they looked like when I found the yellowed leaves. I trimmed all yellows and flushed the soil incase of salt buildup. I don't THINK i've seen any increase in yellowing since then. I left a few half-yellow leaves, and they appear to be staying that way for now.

Will take fresh pics when I take them out to water later.

These are from the other day when I first found the issue:



I still feel really good about these plants. The buds and upper leaves still look very healthy on each, but I lost several fan leaves. I'm sure this has nothing to do with the lighting, though. I am just an amateur is all. But if anyone wants to kick in a comment on what kind of ailment this looks like, feel free.


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## falcon223 (Nov 12, 2011)

No worry the plants still look healthy.


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## MurshDawg (Nov 12, 2011)

Here's a little update. See my sig for more info.[video=youtube;pE_wILiqK7o]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pE_wILiqK7o[/video]


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 12, 2011)

Nice post Dawg!

? Is your box fan constantly blowing on your plants? If so I would change that to just circulate the air in the room.
During veg I keep my T5 within 3" of the tallest leaf and have been getting great results.

Happy growing
Uc~


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## Mohican (Nov 13, 2011)

Hi Prof,
I love your science! It would be great if all of the manufacturers would use a standardized spectrum graph. I wonder if UL measures these parameters.

I also wanted to tell you that my Quantum BadBoy 8 Bulb is on its way and I will need to get some bulbs.

Where is the best place to get the bulbs with the built-in reflectors? Have you come across any new bulbs you can recommend?

Thanks for all of the great info and your inspiration.

Cheers,
Mo


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## PetFlora (Nov 13, 2011)

*Mohican: * Shipping can be expensive: look for closest location to you. Aquarium Specialties (Carolinas) carries all lights recommended, though their inventory can be an issue. Most likely due to the popularity of this thread.

*Mursh:* It is not a good idea to lollipop as much as you have. If done at all, just enough to assist air circulation. Primary leaves store nutes to help feed the plant. At this point you could have a CaMg def and/or a nute lockout. Some primary leaf die-off is natural, but you no longer have enough of them.


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## PetFlora (Nov 13, 2011)

*Educational. *And while their lights 'may' be better than what we are doing here, theirs comes at a much higher price. 

http://www.youtube.com/user/GrowLightSource?feature=mhee#p/u/4/RwI4MzPXxOY


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## Myles117 (Nov 13, 2011)

that is still pretty dam cool!!! a whole new way to look at flouros


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## MurshDawg (Nov 13, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Mohican: * Shipping can be expensive: look for closest location to you. Aquarium Specialties (Carolinas) carries all lights recommended, though their inventory can be an issue. Most likely due to the popularity of this thread.
> 
> *Mursh:* It is not a good idea to lollipop as much as you have. If done at all, just enough to assist air circulation. Primary leaves store nutes to help feed the plant. At this point you could have a CaMg def and/or a nute lockout. Some primary leaf die-off is natural, but you no longer have enough of them.


Thanks for the tip, Pet. I am not gonna be clipping so much on my next run


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## MurshDawg (Nov 13, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Educational. *And while their lights 'may' be better than what we are doing here, theirs comes at a much higher price.
> 
> http://www.youtube.com/user/GrowLightSource?feature=mhee#p/u/4/RwI4MzPXxOY


there's a guy in my state selling a 400 watt induction lamp for $900 it's been up for almost a year... I smell tax return gift!


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## falcon223 (Nov 13, 2011)

I came across this today. *70 Watt LED Light - "Amethyst", T5 fluorescent light replacement. *
*Might be cool. got to fugue out the price.*


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## spex420 (Nov 13, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Well I think its something that IS very interesting and WHY IN THE WORLD no one but me has jumped head first into this? I now think that With the proper "tweaking" we can find that "Magic Light Soup" in T5 bulbs and grow beyond our Wildest Dreams!
> 
> I am trying to raise some $$ for another lamp and put them vertically on either side of the plants kind of like a light box!



is that a tanning booth  that would be a awsome grow light tho wouldnt it..


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## PetFlora (Nov 15, 2011)

Weekly photo update. On que, it has doubled in volume from last week


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 15, 2011)

I ran across some fairly cheap LED's the other day from China. I am thinking they were on Ebay.


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## grapeoptimo (Nov 15, 2011)

^nice poast bro. smoke more weed.


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## grapeoptimo (Nov 15, 2011)

anyone growing with these? http://grow-light-source.com/All_Lighting_Products.htm#420 Watts


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## organicbynature (Nov 15, 2011)

This is from another thread (not a T5 grow), but felt relevant:



jubiare said:


> Apparentely there is something to to with far red 720 or 740nm? Something to do with the sunrising and sunset.... some people give a hour of far red first thing in the morning and last thing in the eve? There is a guy on icmag that has experienced one week less flowering than HPS, compared to not using far red flowering was taking one extra week compared to HPS


We may have covered this, but I at least was not sure at this point why we wanted the far red included. Anyone have anything else to add about this?


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## AltarNation (Nov 15, 2011)

grapeoptimo said:


> anyone growing with these? http://grow-light-source.com/All_Lighting_Products.htm#420 Watts


Here, I found this:

https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/401594-blue-dream-800w-induction-lights.html

Pretty intriguing, but I want to know what they consider cool operating temps and how close you can get plants to them...


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 15, 2011)

Check craigs list man, I saw one for $150..... Possibilities


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## poind3xter (Nov 16, 2011)

grapeoptimo said:


> anyone growing with these? http://grow-light-source.com/All_Lighting_Products.htm#420 Watts


I'd LOVE to grow with those things. Plasma is the closest thing to the sun. But look at the PAR chart. Not nearly enough intensity in the 400-450 and 600-700 range. I imagine that Prof's T5 setup would destroy the plasma. Having said that I hope that the plasma tech continues to press forth. I think plasma and LED, or a combo of both, is where the most efficient lighting for growing cannabis is headed.

Personally I'll be ordering my aquarium-style bulbs here within the next week or two. I've seen enough, and done enough research, to recognize that this is going to work. I'll be running a 16 bulb, 864w T5 setup. Wish me luck!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 16, 2011)

poind3xter said:


> I'd LOVE to grow with those things. Plasma is the closest thing to the sun. But look at the PAR chart. Not nearly enough intensity in the 400-450 and 600-700 range. I imagine that Prof's T5 setup would destroy the plasma. Having said that I hope that the plasma tech continues to press forth. I think plasma and LED, or a combo of both, is where the most efficient lighting for growing cannabis is headed.
> 
> Personally I'll be ordering my aquarium-style bulbs here within the next week or two. I've seen enough, and done enough research, to recognize that this is going to work. I'll be running a 16 bulb, 864w T5 setup. Wish me luck!


Good luck!
& post some pics when you get it!


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## PetFlora (Nov 17, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Here, I found this:
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/401594-blue-dream-800w-induction-lights.html
> 
> Pretty intriguing, but I want to know what they consider cool operating temps and how close you can get plants to them...


OK, I followed the link. Wondering how they can state coverage is 5 X 5 when the lamp is rectangular. That's a bad informational start


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 17, 2011)

Any updates on any of your grows guys? PICS!!!!


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Any updates on any of your grows guys? PICS!!!!


Jeez guys I don't know if these lights are working...  lulz.

Growth has picked back up I believe! i saw some extra height, which makes me think the lime did the trick!!

Watching the buds grow is a trip... I don't "see" it happening much, then I turn around one day and realize "hey that use to be smaller than a dime!"

haha. This is making me kind of giddy. Sorry folks, first timer. 

Pics:




This is a temporary veg chamber I rigged up along the ceiling of the grow room to accomodate my clones until my flowering period is over! Then these 5 gal bags go into the main chamber, except for whichever one looks healthiest, which will go into the new mother chamber I'm about to build. (Should be a fun project, I'm converting a box that used to be one of those big old time radios.)


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## Myles117 (Nov 17, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> haha. This is making me kind of giddy. Sorry folks, first timer.




hahahaha we as growers fully understand. cherish that first grow excitement  

your buds are looking great bro. good job so far!


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

Thanks a lot man! I am feeling really good about them. Can't wait to see what the next month brings size-wise. I've heard they bulk up a lot at the end...


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## Myles117 (Nov 17, 2011)

they usually do most of the bulking up second half of flowering but near the end they slow down.


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

Okay, cool... my flower period started Oct 6th... so I am just past 5 weeks... I should expect 3-4 more weeks, right? Hopefully I'll see some size gains before it slows!


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## Myles117 (Nov 17, 2011)

yeah depends on the genetics of your plants. should def get some fattening next few weeks. 

you have any plans to flush or for how long you might do so?


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

Re: Genetics, this is a mix of bag seeds but I was told a few of them were vendor-purchased blueberry seeds. I'm not sure exactly what I planted, but I've noticed a few of them smell similar and I suspect these are the blueberries. The rest is all random bag seed, so who knows!

If I flush it will probably be minimally, maybe just one good flush a few days b4 harvest (3x vol. through like I do every couple weeks anyway to avoid salt buildup) and then leave it be to dry up before harvest... such a double-sided subject, so much heresay on both sides, but I don't like the idea of depriving them of food during their last growth, so I'm not going to cut them off of food any earlier than a few days. (which is a normal interval for feeding anyway) I am interested in trying the "36 hours of dark at the end" bit though.

Honestly I don't know what to do so I am playing it safe and not gonna flush much if at all... I will follow drying/curing guides to the T and if it still smells or tastes off I might flush next time. Tough question, haha.


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## Myles117 (Nov 17, 2011)

so if genetics are mixed finish times may also be. if you can get a lil pocket microscope to inspect trichomes it'll be of great use in determining when each is ready. aim for all milky with some amber all the way to bout half amber depending on ur preference in high.

and even just cutting to lighter feeds at end would help the taste.  its not so much starving the plants, just attempting to reduce excess nutrients beeing held in the smokeable plant tissues. plus the plants have energy and mobile nutrients that can be taken from the fan leaves during this time.


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

Yeah, that sounds right on man. I am thinking just reduce and/or leave out the last feeding or two.

And yeah, definitely expecting different finishing times, lol. One plant turned out to autoflower so I had to flip everything to flower when that happened... and the one autoflowerer is easily 1-2 weeks ahead as a result. So I'm expecting variance there for sure.

I have a 30x led lit eye loupe so I will be keeping an eye on things... but I read some threads about recognizing the "general symptoms of ripeness" beyond trichomes, so I will be watching for hairs to start receding and for the "fall colors" in the leaves. Will keep an eye on trichomes too of course, hehe.  Thanks man!


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## AssDan (Nov 17, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Jeez guys I don't know if these lights are working...  lulz.
> 
> Growth has picked back up I believe! i saw some extra height, which makes me think the lime did the trick!!
> 
> ...


This is your first grow??? Holy shit I can't wait to get these bulbs now. I feel like I had a decent grow with only 6500k and 3000k. 

How is customer service usually with aquarium specialty? I send an e-mail asking about the status of my lights, and I haven't heard back. I'm gonna call tomorrow. I've been waiting a while for the red sun and 454 (2 weeks) so my order can ship. 

Thanks again for finding this science and these lamps.


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## AssDan (Nov 17, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah, that sounds right on man. I am thinking just reduce and/or leave out the last feeding or two.
> 
> And yeah, definitely expecting different finishing times, lol. One plant turned out to autoflower so I had to flip everything to flower when that happened... and the one autoflowerer is easily 1-2 weeks ahead as a result. So I'm expecting variance there for sure.
> 
> I have a 30x led lit eye loupe so I will be keeping an eye on things... but I read some threads about recognizing the "general symptoms of ripeness" beyond trichomes, so I will be watching for hairs to start receding and for the "fall colors" in the leaves. Will keep an eye on trichomes too of course, hehe.  Thanks man!


Fall colors? This is only my 2nd grow, so I've got some things to learn as well. Do the fall colors refer to leaves turning purple due to phosphorus deficiency? I am in a spot similar to you. I'm thinking harvest soon. You can look in my grow journal if you want to know where I'm at.


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

Yes, first grow, unless you count some really poorly grown bag seed in solo cups that I never transplanted and then gave away to a friend, lol. That was years ago though.

This is my first 'real' grow, definitely the first time I've gotten into flowering at all.

Aquarium Specialty's support has been GREAT for me so far. The rep I've been in contact with via email does take some time to get back to me, but they have really taken care of me, replacing a bad red sun (just came) and they also shipped me the available bulbs while I waited for the red suns to come in last time. If you ask them to do that I'm sure they'll help ya out. I feel like maybe they're a bit swamped right now, maybe ven from people visiting this thread, lol. So a phone call couldn't hurt! I'm sure they are not intentionally neglecting you; their service has been too good for that.


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

AssDan said:


> Fall colors? This is only my 2nd grow, so I've got some things to learn as well. Do the fall colors refer to leaves turning purple due to phosphorus deficiency? I am in a spot similar to you. I'm thinking harvest soon. You can look in my grow journal if you want to know where I'm at.


Fall colors would be leaves changing like in trees in fall outdoors.. basically just the green going out of the leaves as the plant uptakes the stored nutrients in the leaves and redirects that energy to the buds. 

I'm a total newb, but I read a good thread on it recently. I'll see if I can find. 

Edit: Here's a thread by fdd2black that touches lightly on the alternate methods of determining ripeness:  

https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/28072-harvest-time-tutorial.html 

But doesn't really deal with leaf color at all, and I notice that the leaves are still green in his "ready" pics so that might not be a good gauge after all. I'm pretty sure I saw another thread that went into it, but it might not have been a reliable source. 

None the less, quothe the black: " *we will start with ripeness. most people say to check your trichromes with 30X magnification. i have other ways. when buds are done they look "done". the appearance of the bud changes. the leaves start to hook upwards and become hard and crispy. the calyxes will swell and the hairs will turn brown. you can see a golden tinge to the bud leaves. this is the amber crystals. they start to turn amber on the leaves first."

*In addition I know I read some stuff about how the hairs recede as the calyxes swell, but again, I am a total newb so don't take anything I say as fact.

Also, found this post from this thread: (the thread title's a bit of an exxageration, lol) https://www.rollitup.org/harvesting-curing/475921-trichome-color-waste-time-5.html



> *But there are other non-microscopic clues worth looking at too: Calyx swelling/fullness, pistil* coloration change, pistil withering/receding, and yellowing of the upper fan leaves are also all clues that the plant is ripe, or close.
> 
> Again, the exact changes will vary from strain to strain: Some plants pistils will either start off non-white, or simply won't change color from white until its way late. Many plants also won't yellow until its way past peak, plus of course poor nutrition can cause any plant to turn yellow early. You do have to know your strains.
> 
> In my experience, with most plants, its basically not worth it to even start with the microscope until you start seeing the physical maturity changes listed above. Once you know your particular strains well, you can usually determine peak ripeness (or pretty darn close) without a microscope. *


Anyway, feel like I'm derailing this thread...  There are so many opinions on this my head spins... gonna go think about T5s instead..


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## AssDan (Nov 17, 2011)

AltarNation - Thanks for the info. 

I agree. I need to stay on topic. T5s all the way. Can't wait for these new bulbs so my 4 girls can grow big.


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2011)

AssDan said:


> *These plants are as close to daughters as I'm ever going to have, and I plan to chop them down and burn them. Does this make me a bad person?*


Ahahaha... nice sig man.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 17, 2011)

Altar- looks great!!

Can you list your bulb setup and how is the heat?


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## MurshDawg (Nov 17, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Altar- looks great!!
> 
> Can you list your bulb setup and how is the heat?


I know my 8 bulb set throws less heat than a 250 watt HPS


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## PetFlora (Nov 18, 2011)

Hey Guys, BK-1 continues to fatten up (new pics Tuesday). 

*AlterN:* Even having grown for 3 consecutive years (this time), I sometimes think they are not growing, especially since I am a stay at home dad. Now, they do 'rest', but more likely something is wrong when they aren't growing/fattening up over the course of a day. Typically, this begins to happen ~ 6 days into nutes (which are recirculating, so no way to tell how much macro/micro is being used up), so now I automatically dump and replace every 7 days. Also, since I am growing in lava rock, I will flush with H2O2 every 4th replacement, just so salt doesn't build up in all the air pockets. 

As I mentioned early on, this seed was gifted and I am not able to get any info other than it's a Sat: _Tell me something I don't know! _Anyway, the brother of the original grower saw it 2 days ago, and was really impressed.


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## AltarNation (Nov 18, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Altar- looks great!!
> 
> Can you list your bulb setup and how is the heat?


I'm using a cheap Bad Boy knockoff from HTGsupply... get a real one so there's no gap in the middle tho'...

Veg line up:

2 fiji purps
2 Wavepoint coral waves
1 UV 454
1 UV 75.25
1 super actinic blue
...and... uh. One more. I forget. I think it's another blue. haha.

Flower line up is:

2 UV Red Sun/Lifes (they renamed it)
1 Super Actinic blue
1 75.25
2 coral wave
2 fiji purps

So I basically just swap out two blues for two reds and the rest stay the same.

The heat is very manageable overall. It will still require some ventilation in a closed space though.


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## Calrt (Nov 18, 2011)

After reading and studying this thread I have my bulbs and fixture on the way for my first grow! I will be doing an 8 bulb setup in one tent and a 600 watt HPS in another and do a side by side comparison. Should be good fun!


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## AltarNation (Nov 18, 2011)

Calrt said:


> After reading and studying this thread I have my bulbs and fixture on the way for my first grow! I will be doing an 8 bulb setup in one tent and a 600 watt HPS in another and do a side by side comparison. Should be good fun!


Definitely looking forward to seeing what kind of results you get from that comarison. Keep in mind when comparing those results that an 8 bulb setup is just 432 watts.


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## Calrt (Nov 18, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Definitely looking forward to seeing what kind of results you get from that comarison. Keep in mind when comparing those results that an 8 bulb setup is just 432 watts.


If the T5s can outperform the HPS then that is what I will be going for my new room set up. I will be getting some fully vegged plants from a buddy in about 2 weeks so this will be testing just the flowering stage of the grow which could be interesting. I dont remember what the strain is but he has been growing for awhile and I will be able to compare quality and yield to his....


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## PetFlora (Nov 19, 2011)

Calrt said:


> After reading and studying this thread I have my bulbs and fixture on the way for my first grow! I will be doing an 8 bulb setup in one tent and a 600 watt HPS in another and do a side by side comparison. Should be good fun!


*Thinking out loud: *I am looking forward to this comparison. I would be surprised if the 600 wins out. Why? The energy is concentrated in a much smaller area (~ 18") As I understand bulb light distribution, it reduces considerably over distance (inverse sq law?). Keep in mind HO T5s run cooler and have a much larger footprint (4ft v 18"). So while the 600* might *be 'better' directly underneath: 

1. You have to raise the 600 higher to avoid burning

2. The plant tops further away probably won't get half the stated lumens.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 19, 2011)

I like my Blackstars a lot but NO they don't grow colas like this method seems to be doing.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 19, 2011)

eggselent points!


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## falcon223 (Nov 19, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus, Really? That statement makes you the only honest LED owner out there. I have never heard the LED people say there results are under par in any way.
Calrt , I hope you do this comparison. It would be the talk of the town.


Good luck , and good growing.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 19, 2011)

I agree, usually all you get is the babbling HPS crowd...


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 19, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Lucius Vorenus, Really? That statement makes you the only honest LED owner out there. I have never heard the LED people say there results are under par in any way.
> Calrt , I hope you do this comparison. It would be the talk of the town.
> 
> 
> Good luck , and good growing.


ye ill take pics of my current Blackstar grow soon


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## AltarNation (Nov 19, 2011)

Would like to see what kind of results you're getting from LED if you say it doesn't do as well as this... what kind of wattage are you totaling?


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## MurshDawg (Nov 19, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Would like to see what kind of results you're getting from LED if you say it doesn't do as well as this... what kind of wattage are you totaling?


most folk on here either run an 8 bulb (432 watt) or a 16 bulb (864 watt)


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## falcon223 (Nov 19, 2011)

Yea it would be nice to see you Blackstar LED grow, and witch one do you have ?


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## AltarNation (Nov 19, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> most folk on here either run an 8 bulb (432 watt) or a 16 bulb (864 watt)


Should have quoted... I was talking to Lucius regarding his LED setup.


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## Undercover Cop (Nov 19, 2011)

Obviously does not understand that the full spectrum bulbs include alot of wasted color temps that are not used during photosynthesis. In stoner terms, these specific colored tubes provide the exact light plants need. They may not seem very bright to us as humans because we're most sensitive to green light, plants are LEAST sensitive to green. So while the light may look dim to us, it's all usable energy to the plants with no wasted frequencies. The bulbs are more efficient in return. You would need several "full spectrum" bulbs to equal the specific red OR blue spectral output of one of these purpose made tubes. Look at a few coral/saltwater tank forums, they get fanatical about the light freq's they use.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 19, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Would like to see what kind of results you're getting from LED if you say it doesn't do as well as this... what kind of wattage are you totaling?


Using 2 Blackstar 240's over 2 plants right now. Almost 4 weeks into flower. Hoping we get some major growth in the next 3 weeks! I mean I like the lights and we are definately growing some dope but nothing like the huge colas that are being showed in the Professeurs pics etc. 

Our next grow will be side by side an 8 bulb over 4 plants and in a tent next to it the 2 LEDs over 4 plants to see how they stackup.


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## hyroot (Nov 19, 2011)

Day 44. I was battling gnats for a few weeks, finally got rid of them. if not for those buggers I think they would have swelled up more. Since the gnats have been gone they have been swelling up everyday.. Right now I would say the nugs are the same size as they were under my 1k. they are super frosty so much more than the 1 k. so sticky too. i had to wash my hands with rubbing alcohol after touching them. the t5 definitely out performs a quantum 1000w with a eye hortilux...... They still have a few weeks left. these strains almost double in size in the last week.


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## Myles117 (Nov 19, 2011)

glad you won the battle with those roots munching fuckers.

whatd you end up doing to beat them? iv heard a layer of sand on top of soil will make it impossible for larva to hatch. i forget if ur hydro or soil  real stoned 

you right bout the frost!!!! dammmm thats beautiful


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## hyroot (Nov 19, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> glad you won the battle with those roots munching fuckers.
> 
> whatd you end up doing to beat them? iv heard a layer of sand on top of soil will make it impossible for larva to hatch. i forget if ur hydro or soil  real stoned
> 
> you right bout the frost!!!! dammmm thats beautiful


Thanks, I'm doing soil. 

The sand and perlite on top does not work. I tried a neem drench and a gognats drench. None of those worked. Pure spray green only killed the flyers (even though it works great for mites).

I was going to try predatory nematodes but if its too cold or too hot, they die off. What worked was the cheapest of all. Mosquito dunks from home depot. It has bacillus thuringlenis in which kills off all larva. I soaked a dunk in a bucket of water for a day and crumbled up and sprinkled the dunks over the soil and then watered them. By the next day they were gone.

drying out soil does not work and neither does H202 (peroxide). the larva can go dormant when soil dries out then wake up when its wet again.


also i found sticky traps are pointless. just take a bowl of water with a little liquid soap and all the flyers will go to it and die. they are searching for moisture and like the smell of soap. if it fills up with dead gnats in one day , you have a gnat problem. as the gnats die off you will see less and less in the bowl. also change out the bowl of water everyday,


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## Myles117 (Nov 19, 2011)

i've never had them fuckers in my gardens thankfully. have had to deal with spider mites tho. 

glad to hear the mosquito dunks work well for knat control. they fairly cheap right?


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## hyroot (Nov 19, 2011)

Myles117 said:


> i've never had them fuckers in my gardens thankfully. have had to deal with spider mites tho.
> 
> glad to hear the mosquito dunks work well for knat control. they fairly cheap right?


they are less than $10 you get 6 donut shaped dunks. I use only 4 of them for my entire garden. even my veg and moms. I have had them before when i used to do hydro. This is the first time I ever had them in soil and the first time ive had that many of them too.. I guess gnats are around a lot more this time of year.

also this batch i tried dr earth soil ( which sucks). i went back to ffof. the ones with ocean forest do not seem to attract gnats. the dr earth ones did.


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## AltarNation (Nov 19, 2011)

lookin great hyroot!! Rock on!


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## Endur0xX (Nov 19, 2011)

hey hyroot, looks like things are going well, nice grow.

I am a little confuse though you say you are using t5 yet the pics looks like you have LEDs as well? Also, you are saying that a bunch of t5s outperform a 1000W HPS!? thanks


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## hyroot (Nov 19, 2011)

Endur0xX said:


> hey hyroot, looks like things are going well, nice grow.
> 
> I am a little confuse though you say you are using t5 yet the pics looks like you have LEDs as well? Also, you are saying that a bunch of t5s outperform a 1000W HPS!? thanks


Have you read any of this thread or just the last few pages????? i posted pics a while ago showing a side by side comparison.

yes one 8 bulb t5 does out perform the 1k. Look at my journal. No led's . Im rocking 3 uvl redsun, 3 fiji purple, 2 coral wave. I had a problem with one blue bulb and swapped in an extra coral wave in its place that I already had. When you have all the bulbs with that spectrum thats how it looks. have you read the first page of this thread? Look at profs pics his look the same way


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## MurshDawg (Nov 19, 2011)

Show them HID heads what's what.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 20, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Right now I would say the nugs are the same size as they were under my 1k. they are super frosty so much more than the 1 k. so sticky too. i had to wash my hands with rubbing alcohol after touching them. the t5 definitely out performs a quantum 1000w with a eye hortilux...... They still have a few weeks left. these strains almost double in size in the last week.


Beautiful Hyroot!!! Just beautiful... nice PAR in yo SPECTRUM


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## poind3xter (Nov 20, 2011)

I can't see the T5 bringing a greater yield than a 1k. But when you factor in electricity, heat, etc and break it into a grams-per-watt comparison then the T5 should DESTROY the 1k if you're using the proper lights/par. The T5's should also produce great thichs and an overall frostier bud. I love my T5s and will never go back to hps/hid. Can't wait to finally get my aquarium bulbs and post a few pics once it's all up and running.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 20, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Thanks, I'm doing soil.
> 
> The sand and perlite on top does not work. I tried a neem drench and a gognats drench. None of those worked. Pure spray green only killed the flyers (even though it works great for mites).
> 
> ...



DIATOMACEOUS EARTH>> like pit of hypodermic needles for bugs.. guaranteed to work on ALL bugs..


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## AltarNation (Nov 20, 2011)

New pics coming in a few minutes guys.

Pr0f, I think I speak for the whole "club" when I say, we owe ya! Thank you once again for introducing these concepts!!


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 20, 2011)

How do you get those pics to appear in line like that without being thumbnailed?


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 20, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> - a T5 PAR Spectrum BeLEAfer!


Woohoo!!! nice plants and beautiful spectrum  wonderful 
pics, thanks for sharing!


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## MurshDawg (Nov 20, 2011)

here's my video update. check my sig for pics [video]http://www.youtube.com/user/MurshDawg?feature=watch[/video]


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## AltarNation (Nov 20, 2011)

> *How do you get those pics to appear in line like that without being thumbnailed?*


I don't even know, haha. Well, what I did was, those ones I posted in another thread... and I just right-clicked the thumbnail and selected the "Copy link location" option... then I put that address in between an "IMG" tag and a "/IMG" tag.. (use brackets [ and ] to enclose... I would demonstrate but I think it would interpret it as an image and not show up)


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## AltarNation (Nov 20, 2011)

> *Woohoo!!! nice plants and beautiful spectrum
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you, I am a proud daddy. I still can't believe I managed to pull this off without experience. I owe a lot to this forum's members. I can't wait to see them finish up.


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## Stomata (Nov 20, 2011)

T5's kick ass. They work great for me. Both veg and flower. I use two 220W 4 bulb duo-tube (biax/2G11) fixtures.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 20, 2011)

Kick Ass man!


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## AssDan (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm about to ask a lot of questions. Please bear with me. 

I'll start with lights. Forgive me if the answers are already in this thread somewhere. I was out today, and I went to some stores to see what's available locally. I happened to come across some bulbs at a local aquarium store; coralife. The output spectrums were right on the boxes. They are also on this website.

http://coralifeproducts.com/product/lamps/

I thought that the super actinic was a no brainer as far as blue light is concerned, so I bought one.

Before:


After:


So I looked at a few places in person and online and have the following questions about specific bulbs;

Would the coralife colormax, linked to above, be a substitute for the Fiji purple? It has an unfortunate green spike, I know, but it seems evenly balanced.

How about the ATI Purple Plus in place of a Fiji purple? Looks like it has more blue than red to me though.

Do all the 50/50 red blue lights have a green spike somewhere? It's not bad to have a little green in your spectrum right?

It seems like the red bulbs are hard to find. Is there anything out there other than the red sun?

Also, you guys are mostly using 8 bulb fixtures. I am not starting with that much light in my room. What kind of watts/sq ft are you guys running? I know it's all about PAR, but I would like some kind of metric I can compare against. My thought is; if I have a good spectrum, like you guys, and I have a good quantity of PAR, my results will be the same. I wish there were a better way to quantify what we are doing. I currently am running 24w/sq ft. It would be ridiculously low according to conventional wisdom. Needless to say, I want to prove conventional wisdom wrong.

I appreciate anyone's input while I wait for my order to come.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 21, 2011)

AssDan said:


> I'm about to ask a lot of questions. Please bear with me.
> 
> I'll start with lights. Forgive me if the answers are already in this thread somewhere. I was out today, and I went to some stores to see what's available locally. I happened to come across some bulbs at a local aquarium store; coralife. The output spectrums were right on the boxes. They are also on this website.
> 
> ...


First id like to say that i commend you for at least knowing what your trying to do. and seeking help instead of screwing it up first and asking questions later.
2nd you need more than 2 lamps for this to work i sugest getting another 2bulb fixture.
i dont reccomend any bulb other than the ones I am already using/recommended here.
red suns are the only pure red bulbs i know of...that are available anyways. I suggest using the coral wave if you can't get the fiji purps. you already have what looks like a standard cool white that will have enough green in it to suffice.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 21, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> New pics coming in a few minutes guys.
> 
> Pr0f, I think I speak for the whole "club" when I say, we owe ya! Thank you once again for introducing these concepts!!


Indeed i think we should still petition for our own category... were not CFL or HID so why confuse others when we shoud have a T5 category.. this thread proves that we as a community really do need one.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 21, 2011)

grapeoptimo said:


> anyone growing with these? http://grow-light-source.com/All_Lighting_Products.htm#420 Watts


I looked into that tech a while ago... thing is... those bulbs are hard to find, ballasts forget about it... $/$ t5 can outperform on scalability and remember "INVERSE SQUARE LAW" single point of light is not good for growing a large crop. You cant Fight the laws of particle physics..


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 21, 2011)

Sign this petition to have T5 added as a category under Indoor Growing!! Aslo Add pr0fesseur as the new MODERATOR!+++++
Repost this link anywhere you know others would likely sign the petition!

*https://www.rollitup.org/make-your-requests/488816-t5-growers-petition-category-status.html#post6661170*


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## AltarNation (Nov 21, 2011)

Yeah, Stomata! Those are fucking beautiful! What re we looking at, three separate containers? Two in the front one in the back? How big is each container?


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## AssDan (Nov 21, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> First id like to say that i commend you for at least knowing what your trying to do. and seeking help instead of screwing it up first and asking questions later.
> 2nd you need more than 2 lamps for this to work i sugest getting another 2bulb fixture.
> i dont reccomend any bulb other than the ones I am already using/recommended here.
> red suns are the only pure red bulbs i know of...that are available anyways. I suggest using the coral wave if you can't get the fiji purps. you already have what looks like a standard cool white that will have enough green in it to suffice.


I've also got 4 2' HO T5s hanging over my plants in addition to the 2 bulb 4' fixture in the picture. I have 7 bulbs on order from aquarium specialty including red suns, fijis, 454, and 75.25. Mursh and the other regulars here thought I made myself a decent spectrum when I laid it out earlier in this thread. I'm trying, in the meantime, to upgrade my light spectrum before my order arrives and so I could have some emergency spares. I have 206 watts in a 9 sq ft space. Do you think that would be enough?

Thanks again for your help.


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## AltarNation (Nov 21, 2011)

AssDan said:


> I've also got 4 2' HO T5s hanging over my plants in addition to the 2 bulb 4' fixture in the picture. I have 7 bulbs on order from aquarium specialty including red suns, fijis, 454, and 75.25. Mursh and the other regulars here thought I made myself a decent spectrum when I laid it out earlier in this thread. I'm trying, in the meantime, to upgrade my light spectrum before my order arrives and so I could have some emergency spares. I have 206 watts in a 9 sq ft space. Do you think that would be enough?
> 
> Thanks again for your help.


Sounds pretty good man... I'd say that it will work, but it also couldn't hurt to drop one more two-bulb fixture in for a little extra wattage. For reference, I basically have 430w in a 4x3.5'ish space.

The bulbs you're getting are good choices. You said you have a blue actinic already... I'd say that line up will go nicely with it. (pretty much what i'm using in fact.)


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 21, 2011)

Stomata said:


> T5's kick ass. They work great for me. Both veg and flower. I use two 220W 4 bulb duo-tube (biax/2G11) fixtures.
> 
> View attachment 1897881View attachment 1897882


What bulbs are you using? Got any pics of the grow?


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## Stomata (Nov 21, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What bulbs are you using? Got any pics of the grow?


http://www.elightbulbs.com/Eiko-49312-DT55-65-RS-Single-Tube-4-Pin-Base-Compact-Fluorescent-Light-Bulb

Those are the bulbs. My fixtures are similar to the "Tek-Four" that HTG sells. I use all 6500K in veg and switch out 6 of the 8 bulbs to 3000K for flower.


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## cifer (Nov 21, 2011)

Hey guys i only joined the forum because of this thread. First of all i apologies for my english. Im from germany and its only school english but i think i can express myself on a way ull understand...i hope so 
I want to thank u all for this great Thread cause like in ur forums here in our german ones coloured fl. bulbs have no big community ....Originally i wanted to do DIY Led with Chinese Leds but it doesnt seem theyre are pretty well and im not that good in electricity....and the diods u need for good results are pretty expensive....expensive for me as a student ....so next option was a t5 scrog wich was meanwhile putes aside but i didnt forget it completely....and so ive found this thread. At the beginning i wanted to do a 10x21 He scrog with t5 but now i want to add a bit of colours especially fuji purple (flower, veg) blue (veg) and red (flower)....the problem i met is there is no really good red bulb (660nm) so maybe i add this with some Osram 660nm Leds but i prefer using a t5 bulb any idea? And then i want to give advise in form of another supllier called narwa. I think its a german one and they have preety good bulbs also coloured ones....the big plus is they have colored HE Bulbs too whereas these aquaristic bulbs are only available in HO wich is ok but for me and my little room/grow i prefer He bulbs for maximal efficiency...the blue bulb is pretty good in my opinion  (i like that narwas product informations are more or less complete)

http://www.narva-bel.de/ressourcen/datenblaetter/QD17121T5.07_LT-T5_COLOUR_mix.pdf

i want to use the blue one i think its a good bulb. It has 500lm in approx. 98" blue spectrum....what do u think can i use this?

Otherwise i dont like the red one...its to much orange although so far i didnt see another bulb wich is far better? Can u help me there is it a good bloom light perhaps in combination with 2000k and 660nm?
So sorry for this bad english i hope u understand my concern 

Oh i have another question...Osram and Phillips both sell coloured bulbs but i didnt find any spectrum sheets wich is important to me....Is it expensive to measure it urself or mybe impossible (realllly expensive?)

I red through all these pages (promise) and i hope u dont get the feeling im one of these people wich ask quations answered one page before or ahead ...im serious about this for a long time bu i live at my mums place. Until i live in my own home ill do outside (this year the police stole all my equip and more or less all my plants ) ....i want to do outdoors its alot of fun and good for mother nature (mother nature produces really potent stuff ) but i want to to some strains wich are impossible to grow at this latitudes and im a litlle scientist  and i love PLANTS 
ok enough of brabbling good night all


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## AltarNation (Nov 21, 2011)

Hey cifer, welcome man. It's true the red suns lean a little farther left of the desired red range, but there are no alternatives outside of LED right now. That seems to be the consensus anyway. Pr0f has an ATI bulb that provided a better red spectrum, but it has been discontinued as far as I know, so we are temporarily at a stand still on providing that range. LED supplementation is probably the only option until some new bulbs get produced.

What is the difference between HE and HO? never heard of HE bulbs.


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## cifer (Nov 21, 2011)

Wow this was a fast answer ...im really glad ....HE means high efficiency (longer bulbs lesser wattage...some are over 100 L/w i think)...cannot sleep


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## AltarNation (Nov 21, 2011)

cifer said:


> Wow this was a fast answer ...im really glad ....HE means high efficiency (longer bulbs lesser wattage...some are over 100 L/w i think)...cannot sleep


Haha, yes. I am a forum camper! And the answers come quick because, as you said, some of it has been addressed earlier in the thread. But no one is going to blame you for not going through 100+ pages before posting, lol. It's easier at this point to ask again than to find anything in this thread! haha. 

Cool... HO is High Output right? So do you sacrifice some lumens for the longer life? Oh, I see, you said it's lesser wattage... how much less do you get out of it? I think my 4' HO bulbs are 54 watts each.

Also, what is L/w?


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## cifer (Nov 21, 2011)

Im a camper too 

for example 21w He has a length of 849mm, same as 39w HO...my future growroom should has something like 95x65x130...and i want to use 2 FUji Purple 39w HO; 2 Narwa blue 21w HE; 2 865 21w He in veg....flower: 2 Fuji Purple; 1 of the blue and far red/IF (forgot the name ); 2 Narwa red 21w He; 2 Narwa 820; 20x3w 660nm Led....appro. 240w Lightpower wich is alot....maybe i get one of the 39w lights out for the sake of my electricity bill 

l/w means lumen/watt

greetz


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 21, 2011)

Stomata said:


> http://www.elightbulbs.com/Eiko-49312-DT55-65-RS-Single-Tube-4-Pin-Base-Compact-Fluorescent-Light-Bulb
> 
> Those are the bulbs. My fixtures are similar to the "Tek-Four" that HTG sells. I use all 6500K in veg and switch out 6 of the 8 bulbs to 3000K for flower.


So you're using all 300k bulbs for flowering but whats the spectrum of those bulbs?


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## cyberbiota (Nov 21, 2011)

Josh1r said:


> I just found this site advertising a new "State of the art" lighting system! Hah check it out im pretty impressed.. http://www.cyberbiota.com/index.html ps. This isn't me advertising the guy lol, just thought it was cool.


In addition to the benefits of solid state lighting (dramatically reduced energy use, exact spectral wavelengths matched to the absorption maxima of chlorophyll a and b, no UV, no IR, our lights are straight DC so there is no flicker that disturbs the chloroplast orientation, and no heat directed at the plants, so less water is lost through transpiration) you can control the wavelengths individually to promote foliar growth or to induce budding. We now have a large database of the optimal timing of light, spectral composition for each stage of growth, and it is all controlled via microprocessor in the power distribution box, and modifiable by a user interface that runs on your linux/wintel/mac/iPhone/Android. Call or email if you have questions or wish to be a beta tester. http//www.cyberbiota.com 

Never buy photons you don't need, and your crops cant use!

Peter C, Charles, PhD
Director of Research and Technology
Advanced Photobiology Laboratory
CyberBiota, INC
http//www.cyberbiota.com


----------



## poind3xter (Nov 21, 2011)

cyberbiota said:


> In addition to the benefits of solid state lighting (dramatically reduced energy use, exact spectral wavelengths matched to the absorption maxima of chlorophyll a and b, no UV, no IR, our lights are straight DC so there is no flicker that disturbs the chloroplast orientation, and no heat directed at the plants, so less water is lost through transpiration) you can control the wavelengths individually to promote foliar growth or to induce budding. We now have a large database of the optimal timing of light, spectral composition for each stage of growth, and it is all controlled via microprocessor in the power distribution box, and modifiable by a user interface that runs on your linux/wintel/mac/iPhone/Android. Call or email if you have questions or wish to be a beta tester. http//www.cyberbiota.com
> 
> Never buy photons you don't need, and your crops cant use!
> 
> ...


I'd kill to be a beta tester. This sounds AMAZING. I would love to do a test and write a complete journal here on RIU about it. Please let me know if you're interested.


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## AltarNation (Nov 21, 2011)

Not to make a big deal, but you guys could probably take this to private messages. I mean this doesn't seem to be new technology... it's LEDs... (no offense to the manufacturers or the representative) and this isn't even an LED thread. (I know the title is misleading.)


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 21, 2011)

cyberbiota said:


> In addition to the benefits of solid state lighting (dramatically reduced energy use, exact spectral wavelengths matched to the absorption maxima of chlorophyll a and b, no UV, no IR, our lights are straight DC so there is no flicker that disturbs the chloroplast orientation, and no heat directed at the plants, so less water is lost through transpiration) you can control the wavelengths individually to promote foliar growth or to induce budding. We now have a large database of the optimal timing of light, spectral composition for each stage of growth, and it is all controlled via microprocessor in the power distribution box, and modifiable by a user interface that runs on your linux/wintel/mac/iPhone/Android. Call or email if you have questions or wish to be a beta tester. http//www.cyberbiota.com
> 
> Never buy photons you don't need, and your crops cant use!
> 
> ...


No uv? no IR... than your missing out my friend... I have posted studies that prove BOTH of these spectrums play a LARGE part of plant development. ill beta test your led vs my T5...
yes leds are great for low power grows... they still produce a great deal of heat and have the problem of being a single point of light...Inverse Square law applies to tiny LED's too.LED is just too young to be used for production use...by the time led is mature it will be over and plasma will win...


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 21, 2011)

Mohican said:


> Hi Prof,
> I love your science! It would be great if all of the manufacturers would use a standardized spectrum graph. I wonder if UL measures these parameters.
> 
> I also wanted to tell you that my Quantum BadBoy 8 Bulb is on its way and I will need to get some bulbs.
> ...


Science is good, standardizing would be great, F* UL, internet is great for finding UVL bulbs aquarium specialty has them! reef wave look em up! Thanks Mo please feel free to hamg about and learn something!


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 21, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Day 44. I was battling gnats for a few weeks, finally got rid of them. if not for those buggers I think they would have swelled up more. Since the gnats have been gone they have been swelling up everyday.. Right now I would say the nugs are the same size as they were under my 1k. they are super frosty so much more than the 1 k. so sticky too. i had to wash my hands with rubbing alcohol after touching them. the t5 definitely out performs a quantum 1000w with a eye hortilux...... They still have a few weeks left. these strains almost double in size in the last week.
> 
> View attachment 1896180View attachment 1896181View attachment 1896182View attachment 1896183View attachment 1896185View attachment 1896186View attachment 1896191View attachment 1896192


Great photos i cant wait to see the weigh in!


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## alley.walker (Nov 21, 2011)

I have seen the same light charts. Some vary a little. For instance peak red might be found at 430NM and blue at 460nm. But I agree, if you hit the right spectrum's you should phenomenal growth and results. I have several home built LED's along with a purchased one. I integrate those with cfl's 
Have a look. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/488391-newb-grow-barneys-pineapple-chunk.html


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## organicbynature (Nov 21, 2011)

For those looking at bulbs, I like the Flora Sun that I posted a chart for a little while back. Here it is again:



I'm mixing them with Coral Waves (for the 420 and extra IR) right now for side lighting.


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## PetFlora (Nov 22, 2011)

cyberbiota said:


> in addition to the benefits of solid state lighting (dramatically reduced energy use, exact spectral wavelengths matched to the absorption maxima of chlorophyll a and b, no uv, no ir, our lights are straight dc so there is no flicker that disturbs the chloroplast orientation, and no heat directed at the plants, so less water is lost through transpiration) you can control the wavelengths individually to promote foliar growth or to induce budding. We now have a large database of the optimal timing of light, spectral composition for each stage of growth, and it is all controlled via microprocessor in the power distribution box, and modifiable by a user interface that runs on your linux/wintel/mac/iphone/android. Call or email if you have questions or wish to be a beta tester. Http//www.cyberbiota.com
> 
> never buy photons you don't need, and your crops cant use!
> 
> ...


*450-465 deep blue. **WTF**??????? 
*


----------



## PetFlora (Nov 22, 2011)

alley.walker said:


> I have seen the same light charts. Some vary a little. For instance peak red might be found at 430NM and blue at 460nm. But I agree, if you hit the right spectrum's you should phenomenal growth and results. I have several home built LED's along with a purchased one. I integrate those with cfl's
> Have a look. https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/488391-newb-grow-barneys-pineapple-chunk.html


Peak RED at 430????????


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## PetFlora (Nov 22, 2011)

Although the plant has fattened up somewhat since last Tuesday, the warm weather here (mid 80s days, mid 70s nights) has all but stopped tric production. We are scheduled for 2 cool days (low 70s) Thursday-Friday, so I am hoping that comes and stays awhile.

Could not really take a good shot of the main cola because it has grown so long that I had to turn it sideways to prevent bleaching. 

I took a shot of the entire plant so all can see how wide it is (4ft+)

Enjoy:


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## AssDan (Nov 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> For those looking at bulbs, I like the Flora Sun that I posted a chart for a little while back. Here it is again:
> 
> View attachment 1900253
> 
> I'm mixing them with Coral Waves (for the 420 and extra IR) right now for side lighting.


I saw zoo meds at petco this weekend when I was looking at bulbs. All their bulbs have a green spike. I guess it's not that bad if you look at one of these graphs and integrate visually. The area under the curve would give you the energy right? I think that with the red and blue peaks just as high and covering a larger range of wavelengths, it would give a nice spectrum for your plants. 

I am right about reading the graphs, right? I hope so. I've been using this logic when looking at the spectral output.


Edit: I looked at this graph again. The y axis only goes up to 40%. Aren't these things usually normalized to their largest peak? The blue and green spikes appear to go.off the page. Which one is larger? By how much? I am not so sure about the bulb anymore.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

AssDan: Yeah, I would try to get something without the green spike. Have you checked out Wave Point's Coral Wave? This bulb is the shit.. in fact I believe it is the only bulb anyone's found so far that covers the far red spectrum the ATI procolor pr0f uses covers. Probably not as intensely, but still a really good distribution. Look at how little of the output is wasted in green and yellow. And although the red is not a HUGE spike, it is a wide spike, and the gigantic blue spike can only help matters.

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting/t5-lamps/wave-point/wave-point-coral-wave-t5-ho-lamp-9246

This is what you want, more than likely.

Here's the spectrum graph right from AS's website:



BTW, CIFER!! I forgot about this bulb's red spectrum. This bulb seems to be the far red solution for the time being, although it's not as intense as it could be!


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## PetFlora (Nov 22, 2011)

Check this out [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Microplasma lighting. Flat panels- no mercury
http://www.edenpark.com/microplasma[/FONT]


----------



## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

PF: Very intriguing!! I am itching to try plasma some day for sure... that looks like a solution that could take care of the inverse square law limitations!


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## AssDan (Nov 22, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> AssDan: Yeah, I would try to get something without the green spike. Have you checked out Wave Point's Coral Wave? This bulb is the shit.. in fact I believe it is the only bulb anyone's found so far that covers the far red spectrum the ATI procolor pr0f uses covers. Probably not as intensely, but still a really good distribution. Look at how little of the output is wasted in green and yellow. And although the red is not a HUGE spike, it is a wide spike, and the gigantic blue spike can only help matters.
> 
> http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting/t5-lamps/wave-point/wave-point-coral-wave-t5-ho-lamp-9246
> 
> ...


Thanks. I will get this bulb for my spectrum after my order comes in. It's much cheaper than the Fiji purple too.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

AssDan said:


> Thanks. I will get this bulb for my spectrum after my order comes in. It's much cheaper than the Fiji purple too.


No prob man... I would recommend some fiji purps in your mix too if you have the money though, as they both hit significantly different red zones... the Coral Wave spikes at about 780-790, while the Fiji purp's red spike is around 680 maybe. At least according to the chart that is available and floating around.

This site shows a fiji purp graph... keep in mind that it seems to be drawn differently, in a way that's a little misleading and makes it look like there's a lot more "fill" between the spikes.. unfortunately, this is the only fiji purp graph floating around and it hasn't been confirmed.

http://reefgizmo.com/2011/01/kz-fiji-purple-vs-ati-purple-plus/

Just had a thought... does anyone know how these assessments are made? Could one of us buy some sort of meter that will determine the light spectrums provided from an actual bulb??


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## organicbynature (Nov 22, 2011)

AssDan said:


> I saw zoo meds at petco this weekend when I was looking at bulbs. All their bulbs have a green spike. I guess it's not that bad if you look at one of these graphs and integrate visually. The area under the curve would give you the energy right? I think that with the red and blue peaks just as high and covering a larger range of wavelengths, it would give a nice spectrum for your plants.
> 
> I am right about reading the graphs, right? I hope so. I've been using this logic when looking at the spectral output.
> 
> ...


I understand these graphs the same way you do. To determine what percentage of the bulb's energy is being used in a spectral range you look at the area under the curve for that range compared to the area under the curve for the entire bulb output. As you noted, the actual area of green light is quite small (and we want some of that green anyways). I really like how this bulb fits the PAR curve:



None of these bulbs are perfect (and we don't even know what the Fiji Purple puts out), but this seems like a pretty solid bulb to me. The Coral Wave is also nice, but not an alternative to this bulb. I see it as a complement, filling in all that 420 (the only thing the Flora Sun is missing in terms of PAR) and adds some far red as well.

While you're paying attention to y-axes, you can note that this overlay uses a different y-axis scale from the spectrum graph (it is showing the percentage of light at that spectrum that is absorbable) - but it shows you how this bulb puts out light in proportion to the efficiency of the PAR curve (except for the 420 range, which can be filled by super actinic in veg and coral wave in flower)


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## organicbynature (Nov 22, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> No prob man... I would recommend some fiji purps in your mix too if you have the money though, as they both hit significantly different red zones... the Coral Wave spikes at about 780-790, while the Fiji purp's red spike is around 680 maybe. At least according to the chart that is available and floating around.
> 
> This site shows a fiji purp graph... keep in mind that it seems to be drawn differently, in a way that's a little misleading and makes it look like there's a lot more "fill" between the spikes.. unfortunately, this is the only fiji purp graph floating around and it hasn't been confirmed.
> 
> ...


It was shown earlier in this post that the chart floating around for the Fiji Purple is for a different bulb that is no longer available. There is no chart for the Fiji Purple.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> It was shown earlier in this post that the chart floating around for the Fiji Purple is for a different bulb that is no longer available. There is no chart for the Fiji Purple.


further clarification...

There *is* a chart for the pro color.... that is the ATI bulb that is no longer available.

There is, indeed, *no* chart for the Fiji Purple. The chart that is floating around for the Fiji Purple is actually from:
*
http://www.nlites.co.uk/growgood/eco-light.htm

*and when you click the Bio Tropic 25000K light spectrum:*

http://www.nlites.co.uk/growgood/ass...t/1.PURple.jpg

*Look familiar?!?!?!? LOL*

*anyways... yeah... earlier in this thread I had also posted some emails between Thomas Pohl @ Korallen Zucht and myself where he stated that there are no published spectrums for their bulbs. He said that giving their spectrum out would be like Pepsi giving you their formula. Search my posts...


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 22, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> This site shows a fiji purp graph... keep in mind that it seems to be drawn differently, in a way that's a little misleading and makes it look like there's a lot more "fill" between the spikes.. unfortunately, this is the only fiji purp graph floating around and it hasn't been confirmed.
> 
> http://reefgizmo.com/2011/01/kz-fiji-purple-vs-ati-purple-plus/


See my last post... "It" has been confirmed 



AltarNation said:


> Just had a thought... does anyone know how these assessments are made? Could one of us buy some sort of meter that will determine the light spectrums provided from an actual bulb??


Talked about this earlier in this thread as well. Here is a snippet from an earliest post of mine:



Psytranceorgy said:


> Wow, I just got off the phone with a company that will rent a spectroradiometer with cosine corrector (pre-calibrated, with included software to install on PC) for a week for $250.00!!!
> 
> Would love to buy a bunch of the most interesting bulbs and test them myself! Not to mention test and optimize for a final 8-bulb vegetative/flowering configuration... Totally worth the $250.00... includes shipping!
> 
> ...


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 22, 2011)

Just to give some more information... I have actually called and spoke with those guys at apogee instruments... and well, they really can hook you up with a sweet-ass setup for your grow area for a relatively inexpensive price tag.

This is the actual page you wanna look at:

http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/quantum/

You just wanna get the appropriate meter, and sensor(s)

and again at $250.00 for the equipment pre-configured and shipped to you for your use for a week... that is not bad! (talking about that other link above...)


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

For the record, when I said "it hasn't been confirmed" I was stating that it is not necessarily the actual graph for the fiji purp. If you're saying it's been confirmed that it ISN'T the right graph, then I stand corrected, but I wasn't saying it necessarily was the right graph at all, i was simply saying that there is a lot of doubt that it is the right graph and that it is quite possibly NOT the right graph. I was attempting to warn what you said, basically.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

Would be cool to get my hands on one of those testers, but I don't have the extra cash to throw around. Oh well.


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## AssDan (Nov 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I understand these graphs the same way you do. To determine what percentage of the bulb's energy is being used in a spectral range you look at the area under the curve for that range compared to the area under the curve for the entire bulb output. As you noted, the actual area of green light is quite small (and we want some of that green anyways). I really like how this bulb fits the PAR curve:
> 
> View attachment 1900709
> 
> ...


The thing that turn me off from that bulb is the green spike right at the very bottom of the PAR curve. Doesn't this mean that the plant is using that green light least efficiently? Seems like the least efficient use of your wattage. What about the green looking like it goes off the page? I found this graph. It looks like the blue has a nice spike, but the green is worrisome to me.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4479

Just my opinion, I don't think I'll be using that bulb.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 22, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> For the record, when I said "it hasn't been confirmed" I was stating that it is not necessarily the actual graph for the fiji purp. If you're saying it's been confirmed that it ISN'T the right graph, then I stand corrected, but I wasn't saying it necessarily was the right graph at all, i was simply saying that there is a lot of doubt that it is the right graph and that it is quite possibly NOT the right graph. I was attempting to warn what you said, basically.


hehehe no problem Altar... Yes! I was just stating that is has indeed been confirmed that the graph that everyone on the net thinks is the Fiji Purple, is actually the graph for an unavailable nlite bulb, and also that it has been confirmed that there are no graphs for KZ bulbs.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

Re: the FloraSun bulbs, Perhaps you are right in the sense that there is a lot more red activity in that bulb... but if you have red suns in there it should help cover that as well. Google is 404ing on me, otherwise I'd double check the red sun's spectrum again.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

AssDan said:


> The thing that turn me off from that bulb is the green spike right at the very bottom of the PAR curve. Doesn't this mean that the plant is using that green light least efficiently? Seems like the least efficient use of your wattage. What about the green looking like it goes off the page? I found this graph. It looks like the blue has a nice spike, but the green is worrisome to me.
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4479
> 
> Just my opinion, I don't think I'll be using that bulb.


That was definitely my primary concern as well and is the reason I didn't buy any of those. I'm having very good results with the mix I'm using (Coral Waves/Fiji Purps/454/75.25/Red Suns) 

iirc, the red suns spike around 680. Comparing that to the FloraSun graph, the FloraSun appears to spike significantly closer to orange than the red suns. Probably couldn't hurt to have all of the above, but for the sake of efficiency I've got what I've got.


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## Gastanker (Nov 22, 2011)

I ran across this article and thought you might appreciate it as you use UVL bulbs. Make sure when looking at the graphs to differentiate between PAR and PUR adjusted for coral (very different PUR than pot). Might make you reconsider the super actinics in favor of the white actinics. 







http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2009/3/review


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 22, 2011)

I agree that the FloraSun's spectrum looks fantastic. BUT I will throw in a word of caution, as the link on Foster Smith aquatics posted above states the 48" is only 39W... hrm... I would confirm that you are getting a 54W HO bulb with that FloraSun... I have always said that it is a great looking spectrum though! Not to replace Red Suns... rather as possible Fiji Purple replacements... (cost)

Also, I will let the pr0f chime in, but I seem to remember a good bit about the quality of manufacturing that could be an issue with low-end bulbs... ZooMed was not exactly at the top of the list... The ZooMed and CoralLife ones seem to be more low-end PetSmart/PetCo type bulbs... I dunno... /shrug.

--EDIT--
Just had that Foster Smith link wrong above... Here is the correct link for 54W T5 HO FloraSun: http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13821+23649&pcatid=23649


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## cifer (Nov 22, 2011)

Wow u guys are awesome ....u found something impossible allthough i dont have the money and live in europe...maaaaaaaaaaaaaaan i want the real chart for the fiji Purp [email protected] Altar: thank u this is the bulb i looked for .....Fiji Purp and this one in the middle and between 2000k and red only and on the other side 2000k again and 660 Leds....i love my brain for the pics it makes in my vision


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## cifer (Nov 22, 2011)

Lol its not 11:46 Am i have to correct that its 19:47 pm in my place 

Does anybody of u like electronical music? Had a bad day and give my some luck hormon through Happy Hardcore


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## organicbynature (Nov 22, 2011)

AssDan said:


> The thing that turn me off from that bulb is the green spike right at the very bottom of the PAR curve. Doesn't this mean that the plant is using that green light least efficiently? Seems like the least efficient use of your wattage. What about the green looking like it goes off the page? I found this graph. It looks like the blue has a nice spike, but the green is worrisome to me.
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4479
> 
> Just my opinion, I don't think I'll be using that bulb.


The graph that you linked to is not correct. I posted about that a little while ago. I emailed the company and got actual graphs.

The green spike is high, but very narrow. It does not look to me like much energy is being used here. We need some green anyway, as you can read about earlier in the thread. Finally, show me a good, all-around base bulb without some green.



Psytranceorgy said:


> I agree that the FloraSun's spectrum looks fantastic. BUT I will throw in a word of caution, as the link on Foster Smith aquatics posted above states the 48" is only 39W... hrm... I would confirm that you are getting a 54W HO bulb with that FloraSun... I have always said that it is a great looking spectrum though! Not to replace Red Suns... rather as possible Fiji Purple replacements... (cost)
> 
> Also, I will let the pr0f chime in, but I seem to remember a good bit about the quality of manufacturing that could be an issue with low-end bulbs... ZooMed was not exactly at the top of the list... The ZooMed and CoralLife ones seem to be more low-end PetSmart/PetCo type bulbs... I dunno... /shrug.
> 
> ...


I have some of these and can confirm they are 54w. I'm not sure how long they will hold up but I got them for $10 ea.

I agree, they are a possible replacement for the Fiji as a base bulb (though you may recall the Prof posting a while ago that you could as easily go all Fiji Purples but that it would be too expensive).



AltarNation said:


> Re: the FloraSun bulbs, Perhaps you are right in the sense that there is a lot more red activity in that bulb... but if you have red suns in there it should help cover that as well. Google is 404ing on me, otherwise I'd double check the red sun's spectrum again.


The Red Suns' peak is the same as the high orange peak (NOT 680) on the Flora Sun (the one that goes above the PAR curve in the chart I posted earlier), according to its chart:

View attachment 1900820


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 22, 2011)

I had a few set backs with clones taken from an outdoor plant turning herm.
I now have 2 plants (Sour-D & Jack Frost)24 days into flower under the Par T5 lighting.






























































I started more clones 3 weeks ago the plants went under the T5 last week.

Again the leaves turn much more "Lush" under this light than the Mh


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 22, 2011)

^^^ nice!!!


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 22, 2011)

Awesome plants man, you definitely are doing something right.... And the lady too! Is that a Shiner she's drinking?


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## ATFgrower (Nov 22, 2011)

I am looking into buying a T5 badboy system. I am interested in the aquarium bulbs, but would like to see a light spectrum chart for the Quantum grow and bloom lamps as well.

Anyone know where to find a chart with that information? I am trying to see how much green or yellow comes from those.

Thanks Prof for such awesome research. Not sure if I will use this method right away, but I will be experimenting with it sometime.


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## Calrt (Nov 22, 2011)

Got my 8 bulb Bad Boy, the quality was a little lacking and had a loose wire and cut off zip ties floating around. The plug connector had a screw missing and was inside the enclosure too...the overall quality control is a joke...The design is nice though. 

Anyway I got it fixed up and working, I only have my 3 Fiji Purps at the moment. Both grow tents are set up, 8 bulb T5 in one and 600w Sun System hood with 6" air cooled and a Lumatek Digital ballast in the other. I will be picking up my 2x4 trays today and my hydro plumbing should be here tomorrow. I want to have everything dialed in before my "ready to flower plants" arrive.

They will be in the same room and using the same reservoir for the hydroponics for both tents to keep things fair. I will do my best to keep the humidity and air temp the same in both as well. Anyone want to chime in on what they feel is their ideal air temp and humidity? Also water temp.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 22, 2011)

Whats an alternative to the Badboys you guys are using? I have heard way too many issues with the quality.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 22, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Anyone want to chime in on what they feel is their ideal air temp and humidity? Also water temp.


I would suggest Air temps between 70-80*F during lights on 85*F with Co2, 60-80%Rh during veg & below 50% during flower, H2o temps should be kept below 72*F If you have a chiller 59-65*F depending on flowering stage.

Happy growing
UC~


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 22, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Whats an alternative to the Badboys you guys are using? I have heard way too many issues with the quality.


Any H.O T5 will work.
I would recommend people start buying products made in there own country.


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## Calrt (Nov 22, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Any H.O T5 will work.
> I would recommend people start buying products made in there own country.


Find me one!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 22, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Find me one!


? 


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Buy+sun+systems+T5


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 22, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Got my 8 bulb Bad Boy, the quality was a little lacking and had a loose wire and cut off zip ties floating around. The plug connector had a screw missing and was inside the enclosure too...the overall quality control is a joke...The design is nice though.
> 
> Anyway I got it fixed up and working, I only have my 3 Fiji Purps at the moment. Both grow tents are set up, 8 bulb T5 in one and 600w Sun System hood with 6" air cooled and a Lumatek Digital ballast in the other. I will be picking up my 2x4 trays today and my hydro plumbing should be here tomorrow. I want to have everything dialed in before my "ready to flower plants" arrive.
> 
> They will be in the same room and using the same reservoir for the hydroponics for both tents to keep things fair. I will do my best to keep the humidity and air temp the same in both as well. Anyone want to chime in on what they feel is their ideal air temp and humidity? Also water temp.


Yup thats the way your gonna get it... quality control IS lacking!!! i will contact them personally! all you ahve to do is take it apart and tighten everything up! Once everything is tightened up youll notice the wiggle and light flicker will go away.. you have to remember there are alot of pieces to the light and the connections to the ballasts should be tightened as well.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 22, 2011)

AssDan said:


> The thing that turn me off from that bulb is the green spike right at the very bottom of the PAR curve. Doesn't this mean that the plant is using that green light least efficiently? Seems like the least efficient use of your wattage. What about the green looking like it goes off the page? I found this graph. It looks like the blue has a nice spike, but the green is worrisome to me.
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4479
> Just my opinion, I don't think I'll be using that bulb.




plants actually DO use green and in some circumstances use it MORE efficiently that red light... we have posted the effects of green light on plants here previously!


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## hyroot (Nov 22, 2011)

I almost bought a Pro Grow 400 LED today off a friend. It was more of a trade and barter situation, wink wink. Anyway It does have good spectrum an penetrates well. I wasn't sure about how much area it would cover and I felt like I was cheating on my t5. I told dude I would think about it. Also I love the results of my t5. I don't want to take a chance on taking steps backwards in my grow. I still want to try one out sometime though.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

cifer check out this mix my buddy put together... it's not necessarily "happy hardcore" but more a blend of ethereal awesomeness with a bit of a 'ElfStep" edge.  (His idea of trippy dub step, lol.)

Anyway I jammed out on it last night and it was sick, so check it out: 

http://soundcloud.com/adamyst/wandering-a-field-of-fallen?utm_source=soundcloud&utm_campaign=share&utm_medium=facebook&utm_content=http://soundcloud.com/adamyst/wandering-a-field-of-fallen


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> *The Red Suns' peak is the same as the high orange peak (NOT 680) on the Flora Sun (the one that goes above the PAR curve in the chart I posted earlier), according to its chart:*


Cool.. then i guess I'm covered, heh.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

DWC, great work man. You're inspiring the hell out of me. Those root balls. I must learn some DWC.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Whats an alternative to the Badboys you guys are using? I have heard way too many issues with the quality.


Lucius, I have the HTGSupply unit here:
http://cgi.ebay.com/T5-HO-Fluorescent-4ft-8-Lamp-Grow-Light-x-hydrofarm-/160517285882?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item255f9367fa

The build quality is good enough... but the hanging hooks they provide are a fuckin' joke... I tilted it just a tiny bit too far towards one end (it was not very far at all) and all of the sudden one end let go and broke two bulbs.  Just use some S hooks and the holes on the corners of the unit instead of the stupid little V pieces they give you to use the middle holes.

The other (obvious) downside to this unit is that there is a 4" ballast block right in the middle of the reflectors. This is not a huge deal, but it makes it harder to "center" a plant under it and it really seems completely unnecessary since the bad boy puts the ballast box behind the reflectors.

Honestly, i wouldn't buy either of them. The bad boy's QC is shit, and this unit has it's flaws. I would get something different all together, maybe two 4 bulb units. I am also working in a limited space and I find the size of the thing to be kind of a pain in the ass.


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## organicbynature (Nov 22, 2011)

Lucius,

I have a couple 2-bulb, 4-footers from HTG, as well as a couple of 4-bulb, 4-footers from GrowBright (also purchased through HTG).

I like the GrowBrights a lot. I got them instead of the cheaper 4-bulb HTG fixtures because I liked how they had individual reflectors for the bulbs. They feel like nice quality fixtures.

Both those lines of fixtures boast 95% reflectivity and I'm happy with both of them so far. No idea on the ballast quality.

AltarNation,

Just to clarify, the Red Sun spike appears to be around 615 nm, where there is also a spike on the Flora Sun. In addition, the Flora Sun chart also shows intensity around 630 nm and 660 nm, which are the key red wavelengths. The 660 nm in particular seems to be hard to hit with T5s (and is a really great wavelength to have in abundance).

I'm curious about the Red Sun, because it seems to work well but according to the chart it is not putting out the light that a lot of people appear to think it is.


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## AltarNation (Nov 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> AltarNation,
> 
> Just to clarify, the Red Sun spike appears to be around 615 nm, where there is also a spike on the Flora Sun. In addition, the Flora Sun chart also shows intensity around 630 nm and 660 nm, which are the key red wavelengths. The 660 nm in particular seems to be hard to hit with T5s (and is a really great wavelength to have in abundance).
> 
> I'm curious about the Red Sun, because it seems to work well but according to the chart it is not putting out the light that a lot of people appear to think it is.


Okay, I gotcha... hm. Well, the combo I'm using seems to be working really well, but neither the coral waves nor the red suns are hitting that 660 nm spot. So I'm not sure how critical it is, but my results would be better if I was hitting it... I could probably retrofit a 2-bulb unit onto the bottom of the ballast box right in the middle of my unit and drop two more bulbs in there, but I won't go through that trouble til next grow.

Maybe I could substitute with a strip of 660nm LEDs instead or something... hmm.

Thanks for your info. Sorry if I seemed unreceptive at first, no one wants to hear they bought the wrong thing, especially after the amount of time I spent trying to figure out which bulbs to buy. lol.  I walked into this completely blind... never grown with anything before, so it was a lot to absorb on top of everything else, haha.


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## organicbynature (Nov 22, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Okay, I gotcha... hm. Well, the combo I'm using seems to be working really well, but neither the coral waves nor the red suns are hitting that 660 nm spot. So I'm not sure how critical it is, but my results would be better if I was hitting it... I could probably retrofit a 2-bulb unit onto the bottom of the ballast box right in the middle of my unit and drop two more bulbs in there, but I won't go through that trouble til next grow.
> 
> Maybe I could substitute with a strip of 660nm LEDs instead or something... hmm.
> 
> Thanks for your info. Sorry if I seemed unreceptive at first, no one wants to hear they bought the wrong thing, especially after the amount of time I spent trying to figure out which bulbs to buy. lol.  I walked into this completely blind... never grown with anything before, so it was a lot to absorb on top of everything else, haha.


Oh, I'm not saying you bought the wrong thing. Red Suns are one of the bulbs that people are swearing by in this forum. Nobody seems to mind that the chart shows it spiking around 615 nm, and rightly so if it's working for folks.

I'm just making the case for Flora Suns because they look like good (and accessible/inexpensive) bulbs to me. Just add some super actinics / coral waves and you're good to go. 

But I'm just starting with these bulbs and I'm using mixed lighting, so they're far from proven.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Lucius,
> 
> I have a couple 2-bulb, 4-footers from HTG, as well as a couple of 4-bulb, 4-footers from GrowBright (also purchased through HTG).
> 
> ...


Thanks. I don't know shit about the quality of these from HTG but will do some research


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## hyroot (Nov 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Oh, I'm not saying you bought the wrong thing. Red Suns are one of the bulbs that people are swearing by in this forum. Nobody seems to mind that the chart shows it spiking around 615 nm, and rightly so if it's working for folks.
> 
> I'm just making the case for Flora Suns because they look like good (and accessible/inexpensive) bulbs to me. Just add some super actinics / coral waves and you're good to go.
> 
> But I'm just starting with these bulbs and I'm using mixed lighting, so they're far from proven.



According to the company it spikes at 633nm and to me it looks around 630nm. You are looking at the center of the spike not where it peaks which is on the very right side (red) of the spike. You want both 630 nm and 660 nm. So that's what the redsun and fiji purple do. The chart floating around is for the deltec giesemann fiji purple which was supposedly the exact same spectrum as korallen zucht fiji purple.

http://www.uvlco.com/AquariumT5.html

http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html

for some reason the servers on uvl are all of a sudden blocked,,,,




In my flower on my T5, Im rockin 3 fiji purps, 3 redsuns , 2 coral waves and they are kicking ass. Despite the Q.C. of Badboys. I would still use those because of the reflectors and they are the only T5's that can run on a 240v.

I bought a 6 bulb hydrofarm off ebay for my veg for 145 after shipping and they come with bulbs. They have individual reflectors for each bulb too. I put in 1 aqua blue and another coral wave I already had in that light. thats a possiblity for an alternative light. it does put out a little more heat than my badboy. the rflectors are not vented like the badboy ones.


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## organicbynature (Nov 22, 2011)

hyroot said:


> according to the company it spikes at 633nm and to me it looks around 630nm, you are looking at the center of the spike not where it peaks which is on the very right side (red) of the peak. you want both 630 nm and 660 nm so that's what the redsun and fiji purple do. the chart floating around is for the deltec giesemann fiji purple which was supposedly that exact same spectrum as korallen zucht fiji purple.
> 
> http://www.uvlco.com/AquariumT5.html
> 
> ...


You're correct, the company does say it's a 633 nm light, and it may be. That's not what the chart shows though:



The coloration on this chart is different from other companies charts, so these may just not be good charts. I don't know.

I ordered some Red Suns but don't have them yet. Do they look very red or are they whiter or more yellow/orange than you might expect?


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## hyroot (Nov 23, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> You're correct, the company does say it's a 633 nm light, and it may be. That's not what the chart shows though:
> 
> View attachment 1901962
> 
> ...




The redsuns look very red.


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## pooper (Nov 23, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Find me one![/QUOTE
> 
> wow ... do you know how to use Google??


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## organicbynature (Nov 23, 2011)

hyroot said:


> The redsuns look very red.


Then their chart is probably wrong and they're really around 633 instead of 615.

But if that's the case, how well can we trust other UVL charts?


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## pooper (Nov 23, 2011)

looks great bud nice work with finding your own lighting method.


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## Redoctober (Nov 23, 2011)

WOW, What a thread!!!

It took me three days to read all 128 pages but I wanted to get through the entire thing before posting because I don't want to be that annoying asshole that asks some ignorant repetitious question that's been discussed a thousand times already. This thread is so packed with information that I will probably need to read it again just to digest it all! I should have taken notes and demarcated the pages with the bits that really caught my attention...but I didn't haha. 

Thank you Pr0fesseur for all of your hard work and countless hours of research! And to all the participants in this experiment as well, thank you for helping to further our knowledge and improve upon our methods which are ever evolving! 

I would like to try the T5 experiment as well. Unfortunately I live in a very 420 unfriendly place, so posting pics or dong a journal is probably not in the cards for me. I don't know if anyone would even want anecdotal accounts without pictures. 

I had bought two GLH LED lights several months ago for the exact reason that you made this thread Pr0f. On their website, they discussed the limitations of HID lights and introduced me to the concept of PAR light for plant growth. I said to myself, huh, that sure makes a lot of sense...I wonder why more people aren't researching that. Low and behold, here you all are, doing it not with LED but T5. What a creative idea to use aquarium lights! T5's are wonderfully dynamic in so many ways. They come in an endless variety of spectra, and can be switched mid grow, something LED's can never do. I am fully on board here and can't wait to see how everyone's results turn out. 

Here's my first question which has been touched on briefly and it's about heat. Never having owned a T5, I am completely unacquainted with how much heat they give off. It sounded like the 8 lamp units give off a fair bit, not from the lamps themselves but from the ballasts, which is why the pr0fessor was looking to keep the ballasts separate and outside the grow space. I don't really think this is feasible for me, so my options are to go with the Badboy and try to rig some kind of cool tube thing like...like...geez, I can't remember now if it was Altar, or DWC who did it (forgive me, it's been a long read). Or the other choice is to go with the air cooled Solar Wind which is significantly more expensive and can't be run without a cooling fan from what I understand. Both of these have drawbacks especially since I wanted to do a relatively equivalent watt run with the T5's to my two 600W HPS lamps. This would mean 3, 8 Lamp BadBoy's...24 bulbs total equaling 1296W. From what I understand about what you all have said, these would throw off a significant amount of heat. My grow room is roughly 10x10x9. I was hoping to use CO2 and thus keep my room sealed, but with that many lamps would that be feasible? 

I guess I'm wondering what the best course of action would be to allow for the use of CO2 and a sealed room while mediating the heat from the T5 ballasts?


----------



## falcon223 (Nov 23, 2011)

I my self am not a big fan of CO2. I like lots of air flow. I have not bought my T5s yet. hope there are some good Xmas sales.


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## PetFlora (Nov 23, 2011)

ATFgrower said:


> I am looking into buying a T5 badboy system. I am interested in the aquarium bulbs, but would like to see a light spectrum chart for the Quantum grow and bloom lamps as well.
> 
> Anyone know where to find a chart with that information? I am trying to see how much green or yellow comes from those.
> 
> Thanks Prof for such awesome research. Not sure if I will use this method right away, but I will be experimenting with it sometime.


You can bug Quantum. I gave up after like 4 attempts. I got the charts but in a format I cannot upload. The Grow bulb is actually pretty decent, the 3000K not so much. Unless you can get a super deal on the Grows I would go with Aqua Suns or something similar.


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## PetFlora (Nov 23, 2011)

*RedOctober"* I have one 8 bulb BB n my DIY 2 X 4 wood frame in a ~ 10 X 12 room. Windshield reflector loosely draped to reflect light back in. Not doing co2. The room is dark at night. Not worried about a little moon light leaking. I run a small circulating fan aimed just above the canopy. Any heat is blowing out into the rest of the room. If your tent doesn't breathe I cannot know how much heat it will hold, but I think 2 @ 8 bulb T 5s will compare production wise to your 2 @ 600.


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## AssDan (Nov 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> plants actually DO use green and in some circumstances use it MORE efficiently that red light... we have posted the effects of green light on plants here previously!


Sorry I spoke out of my depth/experience. I am reading the thread again. I didn't absorb all that I should have. Going through a second time, I understand better and I will take more away after the second read.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 23, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> WOW, What a thread!!!
> 
> It took me three days to read all 128 pages but I wanted to get through the entire thing before posting because I don't want to be that annoying asshole that asks some ignorant repetitious question that's been discussed a thousand times already. This thread is so packed with information that I will probably need to read it again just to digest it all! I should have taken notes and demarcated the pages with the bits that really caught my attention...but I didn't haha.
> 
> ...


Nice having you aboard Redoctober!

I've ran 24 bulbs in a grow room! The heat output from the t5 in no way compares to the heat from a HID.
With passive air my room stayed at 75*F (that's with a water chiller running in the room blowing copious amounts of hot air) I would wager to say with Co2 @ 85*F you could gat away with a small airconditioner in the sealed room.

P.s. I bought a 16 bulb Bb for 350$ & an 8 bulb for 220$ I prefer the way the 16's bays light up, consecutive, the 8 fires the bulbs in the middle than the bulbs on the outside. 

Happy growing 
Uc~


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## Redoctober (Nov 23, 2011)

> ]If your tent doesn't breathe I cannot know how much heat it will hold, but I think 2 @ 8 bulb T 5s will compare production wise to your 2 @ 600.


 Actually I don't have a tent, it's just a 10x10 room. So you're saying that 2 Badboys with 8 bulbs a piece will produce as much heat in the room as 2 600W HPS lights? Just want to clarify. Wow that's quite a bit of heat. 



> Nice having you aboard Redoctober!
> 
> I've ran 24 bulbs in a grow room! The heat output from the t5 in no way compares to the heat from a HID. With passive air my room stayed at 75*F (that's with a water chiller running in the room blowing copious amounts of hot air) I would wager to say with Co2 @ 85*F you could gat away with a small airconditioner in the sealed room. P.s. I bought a 16 bulb Bb for 350$ & an 8 bulb for 220$ I prefer the way the 16's bays light up, consecutive, the 8 fires the bulbs in the middle than the bulbs on the outside. Happy growing Uc~


 Thanks UnderCurrent, I love your grow! Those T5 are kicking serious ass! So you think that a small AC would keep a 10x10 room in the high 70's low 80's even with 24 bulbs? That would be pretty perfect. I was even thinking of possibly trying out the IceBox cooling system from Hydro Innovations. It looks way more efficient than an air conditioner. If you type icebox chiller into YouTube you'll see their channel...they've got some interesting videos. 

Maybe I will go with the BadBoy after all then. It's much cheaper @ $190 with no bulbs than the Solar Wind which is like $340. Plus with the solar wind you always need to have a duct hooked up to it. 

The reason I was thinking of 2x 8 bulb units instead of 1x 16 bulb unit is so that I could make a sort of a tent with the lights, angling each at about a 45 degree angle, then gradually flattening the angle out as things grow. Plus, my aero unit is only about 3.5 ft or so across, so a 16 bulb unit would extend way out over the sides and be wasting light. If I had 3x 8 bulb units, I could make almost a makeshift dome of light over my aero unit with one directly overhead and one on either side. 

Now I do remember that the pr0fesseur said something along the lines that having the T5 tilted 90 degrees and placed on the side of the side of the plants is inefficient and wasting light, so if this configuration isn't going to work, someone should stop me right now lol!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 23, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Actually I don't have a tent, it's just a 10x10 room. So you're saying that 2 Badboys with 8 bulbs a piece will produce as much heat in the room as 2 600W HPS lights? Just want to clarify. Wow that's quite a bit of heat.
> 
> Thanks UnderCurrent, I love your grow! Those T5 are kicking serious ass! So you think that a small AC would keep a 10x10 room in the high 70's low 80's even with 24 bulbs? That would be pretty perfect. I was even thinking of possibly trying out the IceBox cooling system from Hydro Innovations. It looks way more efficient than an air conditioner. If you type icebox chiller into YouTube you'll see their channel...they've got some interesting videos.
> 
> ...


I think Petflora was referring to yield not heat.

I'm not sure why you would want to angle the fixtures on a 45*, the inverse square law applies with T5 as well. What you'll be after using T5 is an even canopy where the fixture is as close as possible. I would suggest looking into scrog techniques, keeping the plant wider than it is tall.


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## PetFlora (Nov 23, 2011)

Here's a question that crossed my mind. I got photographed for running a red light. They can zoom in on your license plate. So I'm thinking what (if any) spectrum would obscure their lens from seeing the plate. Perjhpas an simple LED would do the trick. Anybody? 

*RedO:* I was referring to production. Never said anything about heat. Go back, maybe a week ago, I posted info on cheap banquet tents with steel frames ranging from 6 X 6 (< $120) on up. 2 @ 8 gives you a lot more flexibility to boot.


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## Redoctober (Nov 23, 2011)

Petflora: Ah, I thought when you said 2 8 lamp fixtures will compare "production wise" I thought you meant heat but as UnderCurrent said, it was yield you were talking about lol! I figured as much...it just didn't seem right that an 8 lamp Badboy would get as hot as a 600W HPS. 

I agree, it definitely should stack up yield wise. Most of the grows in this thread have been with less watts than would be used with an HPS, and even then, I bet the yields will be comparable. 

People so often cite lumens of HPS being much higher from an HID light but as the pr0fesseur so astutely pointed out, lumens are a measurement for "humans" to use when setting up interior or exterior illumination because it measures light intensity in our eye's spectrum. Watts (radient flux) are a much better metric for comparing output. People so often say that T5 or LED doesn't compare yield-wise but the vast majority of those comparisons are made by people using far less watts than they would with HID lights. I would bet anything that watt for watt, both T5 and LED match or exceed HID light results provided they are set up with the correct PAR spectrum.



> I'm not sure why you would want to angle the fixtures on a 45*, the inverse square law applies with T5 as well. What you'll be after using T5 is an even canopy where the fixture is as close as possible. I would suggest looking into scrog techniques, keeping the plant wider than it is tall.


Yeah I guess the 45 degree angle probably isn't the most efficient way to get 2 lights over my aero unit, but how else could I get 2 or 3 Badboys(8 lamp units) to fit over a 3.5ft wide unit? I suppose 4x 4 lamp units could be arranged more efficiently than 2x 8 lamp units, but that's going to get expensive! I was thinking that the more like a semicircle, or hemisphere(dome) I could arrange the lights over the plants, the better it would be.


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## Calrt (Nov 23, 2011)

pooper said:


> Calrt said:
> 
> 
> > Find me one![/QUOTE
> ...


----------



## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

hyroot said:


> According to the company it spikes at 633nm and to me it looks around 630nm. You are looking at the center of the spike not where it peaks which is on the very right side (red) of the spike. You want both 630 nm and 660 nm. So that's what the redsun and fiji purple do. The chart floating around is for the deltec giesemann fiji purple which was supposedly the exact same spectrum as korallen zucht fiji purple.


This is what I like to hear 




> In my flower on my T5, Im rockin 3 fiji purps, 3 redsuns , 2 coral waves and they are kicking ass.


Right on, that's pretty close to my line up, except I left a super actinic in place of one of the red suns and a 75.25 in place of one of the fiji purps  I am quite pleased!! Infact I'm almost ready for a nother set of pics I think, hehe. Hairs are changing... and I am salivating...


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Then their chart is probably wrong and they're really around 633 instead of 615.
> 
> But if that's the case, how well can we trust other UVL charts?


Who knows. How far can we trust anything in this world man?


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> *Here's my first question which has been touched on briefly and it's about heat. Never having owned a T5, I am completely unacquainted with how much heat they give off. It sounded like the 8 lamp units give off a fair bit, not from the lamps themselves but from the ballasts, which is why the pr0fessor was looking to keep the ballasts separate and outside the grow space. I don't really think this is feasible for me, so my options are to go with the Badboy and try to rig some kind of cool tube thing like...like...geez, I can't remember now if it was Altar, or DWC who did it (forgive me, it's been a long read). Or the other choice is to go with the air cooled Solar Wind which is significantly more expensive and can't be run without a cooling fan from what I understand. Both of these have drawbacks especially since I wanted to do a relatively equivalent watt run with the T5's to my two 600W HPS lamps. This would mean 3, 8 Lamp BadBoy's...24 bulbs total equaling 1296W. From what I understand about what you all have said, these would throw off a significant amount of heat. My grow room is roughly 10x10x9. I was hoping to use CO2 and thus keep my room sealed, but with that many lamps would that be feasible?
> 
> I guess I'm wondering what the best course of action would be to allow for the use of CO2 and a sealed room while mediating the heat from the T5 ballasts? *


Welcome Red, welcome. Glad to have another grower joining us in here. 

The "cool tube for ballasts" was mine... it's working GREAT, by the way. It basically keeps my cramped grow room comfortably at 70-75 while before (when the air was allowed to just float into the space) my limited CFM fan (240) was only able to keep it down for half a day and I was pushing 85 by the end of the light cycle!! :O That is why I implemented it and it worked PERFECTLY. The only better thing would be if I could build an enclosure for the whole thing and get the bulbs in there too.

But really the heat is not bad at all now that I have this set up.

I would say that since you are working with CO2 and you WANT it around 85, if you cooltubed the ballasts or did something similar, you could probably get away with it even though you're using 3x the lights. The key is to suck that heat off right as soon as it's being created, before it builds in the room at all.

Not sure what kind of fan you're using, but mine is wimpy as hell, a 240cfm whisperline... so if you get a decent inline fan I think you could have some really good luck with that setup, especially considering you actually want it 10 degrees higher for CO2. I'm assuming you're in a relatively cool climate though.

Edit!: Waaaait... ack, I forgot that a C02 grow is usually closed environment so that would mean you can't vent at all? I don't think you're going to get away with 3x8 bulb units with no ventilation unless you run an A/C... personally, I would get a decent CFM fan, duct all three ballast boxes, and ditch the CO2. But that's me.


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

AssDan said:


> Sorry I spoke out of my depth/experience. I am reading the thread again. I didn't absorb all that I should have. Going through a second time, I understand better and I will take more away after the second read.


I believe that if you're using fiji purps you're getting a dose of green already... coral waves have a bump of green too, though not much. I have no idea if this is ample though. Pr0f?


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

> *The reason I was thinking of 2x 8 bulb units instead of 1x 16 bulb unit is so that I could make a sort of a tent with the lights, angling each at about a 45 degree angle, then gradually flattening the angle out as things grow. Plus, my aero unit is only about 3.5 ft or so across, so a 16 bulb unit would extend way out over the sides and be wasting light. If I had 3x 8 bulb units, I could make almost a makeshift dome of light over my aero unit with one directly overhead and one on either side.*


*

There is an alternative, in the sense that you can just pull the bulbs from the exterior slots until you need them. Then you'll save power as those won't be running.
*


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## organicbynature (Nov 23, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> I believe that if you're using fiji purps you're getting a dose of green already... coral waves have a bump of green too, though not much. I have no idea if this is ample though. Pr0f?


Prof uses 75.25s for green in his mix. They are "75% Actinic 03 & 25% Tri-band phosphors".


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

Okay, cool. I kept the 75.25 in through veg and flower. That must have been why.  I can barely remember why I bought what I bought at this point, heh.


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## Redoctober (Nov 23, 2011)

> The "cool tube for ballasts" was mine... it's working GREAT, by the way. It basically keeps my cramped grow room comfortably at 70-75 while before (when the air was allowed to just float into the space) my limited CFM fan (240) was only able to keep it down for half a day and I was pushing 85 by the end of the light cycle!! :O That is why I implemented it and it worked PERFECTLY. The only better thing would be if I could build an enclosure for the whole thing and get the bulbs in there too.


Ok , that's a good standard against which I can measure. Thanks. How's your grow going? You must be approaching the finish line by now no?



> I would say that since you are working with CO2 and you WANT it around 85, if you cooltubed the ballasts or did something similar, you could probably get away with it even though you're using 3x the lights. The key is to suck that heat off right as soon as it's being created, before it builds in the room at all.


I think I would have to "cooltube" em like you said if I am going to run 3 or 4 Badboys in one room, same as with HPS.



> Not sure what kind of fan you're using, but mine is wimpy as hell, a 240cfm whisperline... so if you get a decent inline fan I think you could have some really good luck with that setup, especially considering you actually want it 10 degrees higher for CO2. I'm assuming you're in a relatively cool climate though.


I have an 8" 720 cfm fan running through my filter now. It does a pretty decent job of keeping the room temps down, though my next investment in addition to the T5's is a chiller. Thankfully my rez is small, only about 12 gallons or so. 



> Edit!: Waaaait... ack, I forgot that a C02 grow is usually closed environment so that would mean you can't vent at all? I don't think you're going to get away with 3x8 bulb units with no ventilation unless you run an A/C... personally, I would get a decent CFM fan, duct all three ballast boxes, and ditch the CO2. But that's me.


Yeah I have never run CO2 before and wanted to try it out as it increases yield and decreases flowering time, but unfortunately I wouldn't be able to vent the room like before with a filter, fan and duct. I would have to make a closed system type of duct line taking cool air from outside and running it through sealed reflectors or cooltubes and out of the room without ever mingling with the ambient room air. This is kind of a pain in the ass and I'm wondering if it's really worth it just to use CO2. But if CO2 can increase yield by 20% then I suppose it is. I think if I go this route, like you said I'll have to get those Solar Wind units because I just don't have the time or energy to build my own cooltube like you did...Great job on that btw! The Solar Wind units do exactly what you said, they keep the bulbs and ballast completely enclosed and sealed so that you can evacuate the heat through a duct line. But they do cost a helluvalot more and require the whole duct setup ....Blurg!!!! (as Liz Lemon would say)


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

Hahaha... yeah man, I would love to get the solar wind units instead. Those are sick. I get what you're saying about enclosed ducting in and out... it would be hard but doable... as you can see in the pic, the way I have mine setup it sucks air right from around the light, not outside the room.

I think if you are going to do a chiller setup you could make it work though... I like that idea. I looked up the icebox on youtube and watched a nice demo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M0uRrMvfucY

Definitely a cool idea man, I want to do something like that someday! But it seems like it would be expensive to set up too. Still, chiller seems better than A/C, as he said it is more efficient.

And thanks for the props on the cooltube solution... it's so ghetto but it really does work. 


As for my grow, I am estimating 2-4 weeks left for them. They're a variety of seeds, all "bag seed" technically but half of them were high quality blueberry seeds from a grow my friend did from purchased seeds that ended up pollinating.

This is my first grow ever so I really don't know when they'll be done! But I am definitely starting to get there... the last pics I put up were on page 120: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/358190-led-without-leds-my-first-120.html


Definitely still have some time left though. Maybe less than 2 on the most mature one, but expecting closer to 4. Darn, I wanted to give some away for Christmas.  Gonna have to wait til after it cures though I guess!! heh.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm not sure why you would use an Ice box & water chiller to cool vented air from the hood?


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## Redoctober (Nov 23, 2011)

So I'm putting together (mostly for my own reference) a list of the bulbs, suppliers and links. I think this will be a good reference for others as well and I'm sure I will edit this list as people offer up other links as well as corrections to my list. Btw please check my work and if anyone spots anything wrong or out of place, don't hesitate to point it out as this will be for everyone. I was assuming 48" 54W bulbs for these links. For some sites, a lower price is listed if you buy in bulk but I just listed the single bulb prices here. Aquarium Specialty seems to be the only place that has everything but I have ordered other stuff from BulkReefSupply and can vouch for them. They are very good and have good customer support.

*Fiji Purple*

BulkReefSupply - $26.99

 Aquarium Specialty - $31.40

Aquacave - $27.99

*UVL Super Actinic @ 420nm*

 BulkReefSupply - $19.79

 Aquarium Specialty (VHO) Internal Reflector -$20.95

 Aquarium Specialty - $23.00 

 Marine Depot - $18.50

*UVL 75.25*

Aquarium Specialty - $23.00

 Aquarium Specialty VHO Internal Reflector-$20.95

 BulkReefSupply - $19.79

*UVL 454*

Marine Depot - $18.50

 Aquarium Specialty - $23.00

 BulkReefSupply - $22.49

*UVL Red Sun (Red Life)*

Aquarium Specialty - $19.95

 Marine Depot - $21.95

*Wave Point Coral Wave (ATI Pro Color Replacement)
*
Aquarium Specialty - $14.75


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 23, 2011)

Aq specialty is backordered on UVL Actanic+ & 454's with Internal reflectors.

I've been waiting for over a month!


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

Looks great Red... go for the ones with the internal reflectors whenever possible to maximize output!


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## AltarNation (Nov 23, 2011)

ROFL...

Yeah, they've been having back order issues... I think it's because we swamped them honestly. 

Took some time to get all my red lifes (prev. called red suns) and when they did come, the order had been rushed through production and the bulbs were failing! (NOT AS's fault, but UVL's manufacturer) I already lost one and I'm looking at another that looks like it's going to go. Luckily they already replaced the first... hoping they'll replace the second too...


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## Redoctober (Nov 23, 2011)

> Looks great Red... go for the ones with the internal reflectors whenever possible to maximize output!


Yeah it was a little unclear on a few of the websites whether the UVL bulbs had the internal reflectors. Some didn't specify. On the Aquarium Specialty site for instance, they advertise different versions. An example would be the Super Actinic. 

One choice is "UV Lighting Super Actinic T5 VHO with Internal Reflector"

and the other choice is "UV Lighting Super Actinic T5 Lamp with Reflector" 

It's not really clear what the second choice is? If it's not an internal reflector, what is it?



> Aq specialty is backordered on UVL Actanic+ & 454's with Internal reflectors. I've been waiting for over a month!


 A MONTH!!!! DAMN! That blows! 



> Yeah, they've been having back order issues... I think it's because we swamped them honestly.


 Haha! I think you're probably right! 

Hey Pr0fesseur, if you're out there, I think Aquarium Specialty should give you some sort of discount or deal for bringing them so much business  Of course you couldn't explain why so many people are so interested in their T5's all of a sudden, so just say you started a coral club!


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## Redoctober (Nov 23, 2011)

> I'm not sure why you would use an Ice box & water chiller to cool vented air from the hood?


 If you are thinking about something in the context of my post, I meant that I was going to get a chiller for my rez which is not related to the icebox system. That'll be a later investment. 

If you are referring to the icebox chilling system, you should check it out on youtube because the guy does a far better job demonstrating it than I could trying to explain it. Basically it uses a water chiller and cold water to cool the air both coming out of the hoods/reflectors/cooltubes and also the ambient air in the room, just like an air conditioner, except much, much more efficiently and at a fraction of the power consumption of an air conditioner or other similar cooling devices. It's really a very cool device lol! It is expensive though unfortunately  I bet it would work wonderfully in conjunction with the Solar Wind T5 hood though!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Nov 23, 2011)

^^^^^^

A strong inline fan pushing/pulling air from outside the room through venting past the bulb through more venting than being exhausted outside the room in my opinion is much more efficient than using an Ice box setup inside a sealed room.


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## Redoctober (Nov 24, 2011)

> A strong inline fan pushing/pulling air from outside the room through venting past the bulb through more venting than being exhausted outside the room in my opinion is much more efficient than using an Ice box setup inside a sealed room.


 Yes that's true in many cases especially if the air outside is cool air, but if you live in a hot climate or if you have several lights in series, the air becomes less efficient at cooling. Remember we are talking about HID's not T5's, so several 600W or 1000W HID lamps daisy chained together all sharing the same outside duct line will get cooled for sure, but sequentially less and less as the air gets warmed by each subsequent lamp. The goal is to cool the lamps as much as possible because the cooler you can make them, the closer you can get them to the plants. This is where the IceBox comes into play. If you live in an area where the outside air is 80-100 degrees, particularly in the summer, one might opt for a extra cooling boost. In a normal situation, the air exiting the cooling fixture, or hood will be substantially warmer than the air that went in because it has absorbed the heat from the lamp. So if lamp #1 in the series gets 70 degree air passed over it and emerges 10 or 15 degrees warmer, it may not cool lamp #2 particularly well. In the test the guy does in the video, with the IceBox hooked up, the air emerges from a blazing hot lamp at 56 degrees or something, and is ready to cool the next lamp or be released into the room as cool ambient air and then be recycled. 

I assure you that I agree with you, bringing in air from the outside in an isolated circuit from the room is definitely the cheapest and in many cases easiest way to cool lights. I'm just saying that the IceBox does have merit in certain situations. Additionally, it'd allow you to not have to bring in outside air at all if you so desired because the ambient air in the room would be cool enough to run through the lamps as though it were outside air. This is particularly nice if you have a CO2 setup where your room is sealed. Then you don't even have to bother setting up a duct to bring in outside air. For many, setting up this kind of duct usually involves some sort of home modification, and I hate the idea of cutting holes into the side of my house. That is the primary reason I was considering the IceBox system, but like you said, it's now almost winter, and it's just cheaper to run an inline fan using cold air from outside. I am in the very annoying process of trying to build a sealed duct unit to be installed into a window. It really sucks and I am not good at carpentry. I'm still even considering the IceBox so I don't have to go through all that. I'm not sure what the chiller would cost to run, but it'd almost be worth it haha!


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## cifer (Nov 24, 2011)

@ altar: i really like the music u posted thx alot 

i do have another question: Is there by chance a colored compact fluo. (Osram Delux l, Phillips PL/L).....or one like the fiji purp spectrum and all the others? I really like to do a grow with cfl but i only found the standard spectrums...can u help me?


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## AssDan (Nov 24, 2011)

cifer said:


> @ altar: i really like the music u posted thx alot
> 
> i do have another question: Is there by chance a colored compact fluo. (Osram Delux l, Phillips PL/L).....or one like the fiji purp spectrum and all the others? I really like to do a grow with cfl but i only found the standard spectrums...can u help me?


While I was out looking in stores, I saw this kind of stuff. I'm not sure how many of these are out there or what brands, but there are some.

http://www.petsmart.com/product/index.jsp?productId=11740166&lmdn=Fish+Lighting

I've been having trouble with the toolbar on the forum for my last few posts. Sorry.

Edit: The link works anyway. Go me.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 24, 2011)

I believe those are 10 watters from what I can tell


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## cifer (Nov 24, 2011)

No sorry i mean the 55w Cfl called Delux L by Osram and Pl/l by Phillips....one can say its a ordinary t5 tube but its twisted so its only half the length ....these bulbs are pretty awesome for small grow cabinets combining with mini sog or better, scrog. Therefore i search for some bulbs with good spectrum and not the shit 3000k a.s.o.....maybe someone seen such bulbs for aquaristic???? Or more red than 2700k?


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## AssDan (Nov 24, 2011)

cifer said:


> No sorry i mean the 55w Cfl called Delux L by Osram and Pl/l by Phillips....one can say its a ordinary t5 tube but its twisted so its only half the length ....these bulbs are pretty awesome for small grow cabinets combining with mini sog or better, scrog. Therefore i search for some bulbs with good spectrum and not the shit 3000k a.s.o.....maybe someone seen such bulbs for aquaristic???? Or more red than 2700k?


My ignorance of CFLs has been exposed. I looked briefly, but I have thanksgiving to attend to. Seems like all the pl/l aquarium bulbs I found were sterilizer bulbs. Sorry.


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## Blunt Master Flex (Nov 24, 2011)

Sorry if this has already been asked, but what is the best 4 light combination for veg?
Please and Thank you sir.


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## AltarNation (Nov 25, 2011)

cifer said:


> @ altar: i really like the music u posted thx alot


Gladly man! I will let my friend know you enjoyed it!


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## cannabineer (Nov 25, 2011)

Blunt Master Flex said:


> Sorry if this has already been asked, but what is the best 4 light combination for veg?
> Please and Thank you sir.


 I run 2x Fiji Purple, 1x Aquablue Special, and 1x Super Actinic. cn


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## AltarNation (Nov 25, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> I run 2x Fiji Purple, 1x Aquablue Special, and 1x Super Actinic. cn


Swap out both blues for red suns for flower?


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 25, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> I believe that if you're using fiji purps you're getting a dose of green already... coral waves have a bump of green too, though not much. I have no idea if this is ample though. Pr0f?


Green isnt necessary in abundance so long as it is represented..


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 25, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Here's a question that crossed my mind. I got photographed for running a red light. They can zoom in on your license plate. So I'm thinking what (if any) spectrum would obscure their lens from seeing the plate. Perjhpas an simple LED would do the trick. Anybody?
> 
> *RedO:* I was referring to production. Never said anything about heat. Go back, maybe a week ago, I posted info on cheap banquet tents with steel frames ranging from 6 X 6 (< $120) on up. 2 @ 8 gives you a lot more flexibility to boot.


High intensity infrared would mess up the CMOS BUT you would have to aim it @ the camera for it to work....
get out your tinfoil hats ladies and gents...
http://hacknmod.com/hack/blind-cameras-with-an-infrared-led-hat/
http://boingboing.net/2008/02/20/infrared-leds-make-y.html


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## cannabineer (Nov 25, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Swap out both blues for red suns for flower?


Tough call. I'd swap out the Aquablue for sure and maybe one Fiji Purple. Would need the Pr0f's opinion on that one. cn


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 25, 2011)

cannabineer said:


> Tough call. I'd swap out the Aquablue for sure and maybe one Fiji Purple. Would need the Pr0f's opinion on that one. cn


fijis have actinic so swap out blue for red...


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 25, 2011)

http://zapatopi.net/afdb/


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## ATFgrower (Nov 26, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> You can bug Quantum. I gave up after like 4 attempts. I got the charts but in a format I cannot upload. The Grow bulb is actually pretty decent, the 3000K not so much. Unless you can get a super deal on the Grows I would go with Aqua Suns or something similar.


Thanks for the response! I have tried bugging Quantum, but the people acted like they had no clue what I was talking about. 

Where did you get the charts from? I am really interested in seeing what the spectrum for those bulbs are.

So the grow looks decent, but not the bloom? I saw a guy use those bulbs with pretty decent results.Thanks.


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## falcon223 (Nov 26, 2011)

That is pretty cool Professor. I like the LED hat. I will have to make one of those.


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## hyroot (Nov 26, 2011)

Amerinada Dist. owns Quantum . I heard today that C.A.P. / Discount Hydro recently bought Quantum. So if thats true. They were probably busy or what ever.


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## Undercover Cop (Nov 26, 2011)

48" 55w T5 
3000k bloom, WavePoint Coral Wave, WavePoint Red Wave, 3000k bloom
6500k daylight, WavePoint Blue Wave 460nm Actinic, Wave Point Reef Wave 420nm Actinic, 6500k daylight.
  
 
 

any suggestions? I think I have a pretty decent blend of heavy blue's for veg and heavy reds for flowering.

After being in my room for awhile, with practically 0 green light emitted by these lights, Ill walk into another room and the regular light bulbs appear to have ALOT of green in them! I think my eyes become super sensitive to the absent green wavelengths, so when I see the lights in another room that would normally appear pure white or warm white, they have a definite green hue to them, I can only assume its because your eyes are used to having that green light in the blend, but when its removed (such as in PAR specific fluoro's) they become more sensitive to those color freq's. Kinda interesting lol.


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## hyroot (Nov 26, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> View attachment 1905997 View attachment 1905998
> View attachment 1905999 View attachment 1906001
> View attachment 1906000 View attachment 1906002




Lookin nice. Good work.


The same thing happens to me. I don't know if it is the absent of green or if it's because of the uv or infrared or all of the above. I usually wear sunglasses now when I go in there. Everything still looks the same under the light while wearing them. But when I leave the room. No more hazy shade of green.... You should wear glasses. Over time the light will screw up your eyes other wise. It is almost like staring into the sun .


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## AltarNation (Nov 26, 2011)

Just got back from the holidays guys... got to feed 'em, then I'll update with pics.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 26, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Lookin nice. Good work.
> 
> 
> The same thing happens to me. I don't know if it is the absent of green or if it's because of the uv or infrared or all of the above. I usually wear sunglasses now when I go in there. Everything still looks the same under the light while wearing them. But when I leave the room. No more hazy shade of green.... You should wear glasses. Over time the light will screw up your eyes other wise. It is almost like staring into the sun .


prolonged exposure to these lights may harm your eyes..wear glasses people... the light these bulbs emit is @ the FAR end of the human spectrum and may stress your cornea and damage the rods and cones... just sayin..


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## AltarNation (Nov 26, 2011)

Ohhh man. Okay, so this is day 50 of flowering.

I wish I had an idea of what ripe flowers really look like. Unfortuntely, I can't figure how to get consistent pictures... the lighting is so different depending on where/how I photograph so I'm having trouble getting good shots to ask about ripeness. I guess I'll just have to keep gambling and do what feels right. I still feel most of these are not ripe, BUT, I am starting to see a tint shift on the trichomes overall, from a distance. With the 30x glass I think I am still seeing only about 20% amber maybe, if that... and that's on the ripest. But, I do feel I'm starting to see the hairs "recede" and that the buds are starting to swell a bit. Still, noooo idea. Haha. So if any of these look like they need to be harvested soon, let me know... haha. Otherwise, I guess I'll keep waiting!

8x7=56 so I guess 1 more week and I'll be right at 8 weeks. I guess that is when I'm going to start looking real close.

Am I right in my understanding that indica dominant strains tend to be 6-8 weeks and sativas are considerably longer? I'm sure most if not all of these are crosses, and it's all bag seed, so I have variety galore. No idea what I'm doing!!! Ahhhh!!! hahaha.

I'm NOT itching to harvest early, like most newbs seem to... I'm on the other side of that coin, going "Oh no, what if I let them overripen?!?!"

Haha.

Here are some pics guys, cheers.

These ones are taken under the lights:



Some more of the same plant, in different light:



I believe these are another plant... not entirely sure what's what here, I suck at organizing pics:



And another:



Yet another, I believe this one is ripening ahead of the others. It was the autoflower that got a week or so jump on the others: (Oddly, I've noticed that this one has significantly less trichome development):




Some shots with flash for a different interpretation of the colors:



Errrgh... accidentally deleted like 7 photos due to silly key command setups in Lightroom. Oh well, this will have to do for now! Hope you all enjoy these.

Oh, P.S. Some of you may remember me complaining about cat hair in my grow because my cats LOVE to hang out in my plants. It was not a problem during veg, but now I watch them like a hawk and have a screen from a window rigged into the doorway to keep them out. I felt bad because they liked it so much, so I picked up some oat grass seed and have this comin' up in my garden... going to give it to them as soon as it thickens up:



Cheers, e'rybuddy!


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## AltarNation (Nov 26, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> prolonged exposure to these lights may harm your eyes..wear glasses people... the light these bulbs emit is @ the FAR end of the human spectrum and may stress your cornea and damage the rods and cones... just sayin..


Thanks for the tips Pr0f... I usually don't spend too much time in there, but I occasionally do my watering in the room... I think I'll stop doing that, or I'm going to pick up some good shades to protect my eyes in there. I didn't realize it was risky with these, but I love my eyes!!


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 26, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Thanks for the tips Pr0f... I usually don't spend too much time in there, but that is pretty useful information. I'm going to pick up some good shades to protect my eyes in there. I didn't realize it was risky with these, but I love my eyes!!


remember the actinics have UVA+B protect your eyes...


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## AltarNation (Nov 26, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> remember the actinics have UVA+B protect your eyes...


eek, can't say I was realizing that at all. Time to get some good UV shades.


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## Redoctober (Nov 27, 2011)

> remember the actinics have UVA+B protect your eyes...


 So does this mean that additional UVB supplementation is not needed? I was looking into the effects of UVB and it seems really good...or are we already providing enough with the current bulb set?


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## MurshDawg (Nov 27, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> So does this mean that additional UVB supplementation is not needed? I was looking into the effects of UVB and it seems really good...or are we already providing enough with the current bulb set?


I thought that we were providing plenty of UV. remember these aren't your grandma's fluorescent tubes! These are meant for growing water/sea plant life.


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## falcon223 (Nov 27, 2011)

Look mostly sativa to me but hard to tell from pics. You got a good 3 or 4 more weeks I think. I would start flush in 2 weeks.


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## Redoctober (Nov 27, 2011)

Altair, your plants look amazing! Great great job! I would also say you have a few more weeks to go. Hopefully they'll fatten up even more  They quality looks teriffic, super frosty. You should have a very happy holiday season; you timed it nicely.


> eek, can't say I was realizing that at all. Time to get some good UV shades.


 I use welders shades, but I bought Shade 5 where I probably should have bought Shade 3. They're a bit dark but not to the point where I can't see anything. Admittedly I don't wear em as often as I should. It's important to protect your eyes. I also wear glasses so I had to find a pair that would sort of fit over them. I think there's a better pair out there but mine were only like $8. 

One of these might work for you: 

http://www.safetyglassesusa.com/s212.html 

Here's the ones I have but in Shade 3 instead of Shade 5: 

http://www.amazon.com/Spirite-Safety-Glass-Shade-Welding/dp/B000GUN9JS/ref=sr_1_6?s=hi&ie=UTF8&qid=1322433654&sr=1-6 

or just do a google search for "Shade 3 welders"


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## larmo (Nov 27, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I my self am not a big fan of CO2. I like lots of air flow. I have not bought my T5s yet. hope there are some good Xmas sales.


 You have no idea of what you are missing out on.
Try it and see your yield increase to 2 to 3 times what you get now. It's more 'jaw dropping' than switching to T5's.
I can't even imagine the yield when they are combined.


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## hyroot (Nov 27, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> So does this mean that additional UVB supplementation is not needed? I was looking into the effects of UVB and it seems really good...or are we already providing enough with the current bulb set?



the fiji purple and coral wave have 5% UV-A and UV-B. anymore than that and you couldn't keep the lights on for a full 12 hour cycle. It would damage the plants. The fiji purp has 5% infrared and the coral wave has 35% infrared.

so no supplementation is needed


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## AssDan (Nov 27, 2011)

Ok guys, I saw some results from using aquarium lights. They are not even the good ones I ordered. I thought my plant was in late flower. After I introduced new lights, I found new growth. I know everyone here is probably familiar with the performance of these lights, but I'm new to this still. After 6 days, I found pink pistils growing on my top cola closest to my colirmax bulb. See my grow journal in my Sig for more details.

These lights are amazing. I just wanted to add the number of people using this method and reporting great results.


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## jjthejetplane (Nov 27, 2011)

what proximity do you hang your light at?


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## hyroot (Nov 27, 2011)

jjthejetplane said:


> what proximity do you hang your light at?


10 inches minimum for spectrum blend. Usually about a foot away


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## MurshDawg (Nov 27, 2011)

hyroot said:


> 10 inches minimum for spectrum blend. Usually about a foot away


I am no less than 12"


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## AltarNation (Nov 28, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> I am no less than 12"


I am anywhere from 2-6". I make sure to reposition everything regularly for spectrum exposure.


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## PetFlora (Nov 28, 2011)

Since I ran out of height to raise the fixture, I have had to pull the branches away from the bulbs, but can't pull down very much. Comparing to bud branches that are ~ 10" away, no real difference in bud/tric production


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## Redoctober (Nov 28, 2011)

> the fiji purple and coral wave have 5% UV-A and UV-B. anymore than that and you couldn't keep the lights on for a full 12 hour cycle. It would damage the plants. The fiji purp has 5% infrared and the coral wave has 35% infrared.
> 
> so no supplementation is needed


 Ah, I didn't realize that the fiji and coral wave had that much UV-B in them. How did we arrive at the 5% number as being the max amount of UV-B? Is there an article or thread that analyses UV content and its effects? 

Does the far infrared just aid with flower basically? I know the professor was looking for some far infrared bulb to simulate the dawn and dusk wavelengths in the late summer/fall.


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## PetFlora (Nov 28, 2011)

WOW. I had no idea my Coral Waves had that much infrared. I have 2 of 8. I haven't noticed any eye strain. 

Since we never got a spectrum graph on the Fiji Purple, I don't understand why it continues to be promoted


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## hyroot (Nov 28, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Ah, I didn't realize that the fiji and coral wave had that much UV-B in them. How did we arrive at the 5% number as being the max amount of UV-B? Is there an article or thread that analyses UV content and its effects?
> 
> Does the far infrared just aid with flower basically? I know the professor was looking for some far infrared bulb to simulate the dawn and dusk wavelengths in the late summer/fall.


There is a video on you tube some where and an article in high times from around 6 months ago. Both are Ed Rosenthal and Nasa doing LED and UV-B experiments for space at University of Maryland. The UV-B lights they were using are 10% UV-B. They tried using at various schedules. At a full 12 hours, there was damage to trichomes an leaf growth. It didn't get more specific than that. They came to the conclusion that having it on for 5 hours a day produced the best results. To have it on for full 12 hour schedule it would have to be less or possibly half the amount of UV-B that they were using.

The video is just ed rosenthal at a convention talking about the experiments


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## Redoctober (Nov 28, 2011)

hyroot said:


> There is a video on you tube some where and an article in high times from around 6 months ago. Both are Ed Rosenthal and Nasa doing LED and UV-B experiments for space at University of Maryland. The UV-B lights they were using are 10% UV-B. They tried using at various schedules. At a full 12 hours, there was damage to trichomes an leaf growth. It didn't get more specific than that. They came to the conclusion that having it on for 5 hours a day produced the best results. To have it on for full 12 hour schedule it would have to be less or possibly half the amount of UV-B that they were using.
> 
> The video is just ed rosenthal at a convention talking about the experiments


Very cool! I must check that out!

btw, completely unrelated but can you not "like" a post with javascript turned off? I can't seem to like your post hyroot so I gave you rep instead but where is the like button?


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 28, 2011)

its tyhat little heart shaped picture with a number by it in the upper right


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## AltarNation (Nov 28, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> WOW. I had no idea my Coral Waves had that much infrared. I have 2 of 8. I haven't noticed any eye strain.
> 
> Since we never got a spectrum graph on the Fiji Purple, I don't understand why it continues to be promoted


eh, someone posted a ways back saying that the Fiji Purp used to be manufactured by someone else and that it was an accurate spectrum graph according to the prior mfr. The current mfr does not divulge that info. So it's really up in the air. Don't use it if you don't wanna, heh. I feel it is a good bulb. It is working well for me. That's all i care bout honestly.

Edit: I mean I don't think anyone's really "promoting" them... we're just telling people what we're using and is working for us. :shrug:


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## AltarNation (Nov 28, 2011)

Red, the "Like" is just a single word that shows up in the bottom right corner of the post, right above the poster's signature and straight north from the "Multi-Quote This Message" icon... it just says the word "Like" and it only appears while mousing over each post individually. I suspect this is some kind of javascript. But as Reefer said, I believe you can also like it through that drop-down at the top. I haven't messed with that tho.


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## pr0fesseur (Nov 28, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> WOW. I had no idea my Coral Waves had that much infrared. I have 2 of 8. I haven't noticed any eye strain.
> 
> Since we never got a spectrum graph on the Fiji Purple, I don't understand why it continues to be promoted


These bulbs are praised by even the best aquarium enthusiasts for a myriad of reasons. AND i have yet to find a SIMILAR bulb that gives the same spectra. Yes we dont have a proper spectrum chart.. ill take the one i can find though....


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## Redoctober (Nov 28, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Red, the &quot;Like&quot; is just a single word that shows up in the bottom right corner of the post, right above the poster's signature and straight north from the &quot;Multi-Quote This Message&quot; icon... it just says the word &quot;Like&quot; and it only appears while mousing over each post individually. I suspect this is some kind of javascript. But as Reefer said, I believe you can also like it through that drop-down at the top. I haven't messed with that tho.


 haha yeah it is javascript because it's not there for me, nor can I use the big like button. Oh well. From now on, just assume that I like everyone's posts!


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## blazedapurp (Nov 28, 2011)

Wussup pr0fesseur so can i veg with these bulb u told me to get?

12000k actinic white
Fiji
Blue plus
Fiji


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## falcon223 (Nov 29, 2011)

blaze. Those would probably work just fine for veg. I have no problem in veg with ordinary bulbs. How ever flower is a bit more technical.


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## falcon223 (Nov 29, 2011)

I see you guys are giving me the like thing. Thanks. I am new around here. I still have to figure this like post thing out.
And thanks for a warm welcome.

I am trying to save the money to get some T5s. I am hopping they are easer on the light bill. And with the aquarium bulbs they would be great. Love this thread. Thanks.


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## hyroot (Nov 29, 2011)

People when you look at a spectrum chart, what is before or to the left of 400 nm is uv light and what is passed or to the right of 700 nm is infrared. So the big red spike you see at 765 nm on the coral wave chart is infrared aka far red.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 29, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> AND i have yet to find a SIMILAR bulb that gives the same spectra. Yes we dont have a proper spectrum chart.. ill take the one i can find though....


AND how are you trying to find a SIMILAR bulb that gives the same spectra, when you do not even know what that spectra is? Did you obtain instrumentation to measure the spectrum of the fiji purple? You'll take the one you can find though... The spectrum from another company's bulb (nlite PURple), that isn't even on the market

Sorry pr0f I had to go there... with all the talk of real science that goes on in this thread, your comments are pretty deflating


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## PetFlora (Nov 29, 2011)

I feel like I have let the curious down. (*Edit*: _as it relates to flowering with coral T5 bulbs)_

Unfortunately, 2 weeks ago, BK-1 suffered from a combination of moderately high ambient heat which led to lots of rez evaporation, causing the already high ppm (I was pushing her @ 1320) to rocket up to ~ 1900. This would not have been as devastating had I not been feeding every 45 minutes, which was the equivalent of dousing her with high octane gasoline. All the above combined to cause nute burn at the worst possible time- just when all the colas were swelling up. Trics literally melted, but new ones are normal, and some new pistil growth is happening. 

Still, a recent sample of pop corn bud from down low smokes great. Even though the pistils are ~ 95% orange (mostly due to burn) she probably has ~ 7 days left 

The colas look thinner than in previous pics due to heavy loss of primary leaves, which thankfully, took the brunt of the burn. 

These photos are probably my last contribution. I am totally convinced that switching to coral bulbs made a huge difference.

_*Thanks Pr0f!*_


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## PetFlora (Nov 29, 2011)

This looks interesting. Haven't read it yet, so don't know "How much". Sigh, it's only about having green light so you can work in the dark. But, hmmm, I wonder whether having the right amount of green ~ 500 in say a small LED supplement light might jack up chlorophyll production

http://bigbudsmag.com/grow/how/article/use-green-light-work-your-indoor-garden-during-dark-cycle-november-2011


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## AltarNation (Nov 29, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> haha yeah it is javascript because it's not there for me, nor can I use the big like button. Oh well. From now on, just assume that I like everyone's posts!


Are you anti javascript for a particular reason?


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## AltarNation (Nov 29, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> AND how are you trying to find a SIMILAR bulb that gives the same spectra, when you do not even know what that spectra is? Did you obtain instrumentation to measure the spectrum of the fiji purple? You'll take the one you can find though... The spectrum from another company's bulb (nlite PURple), that isn't even on the market
> 
> Sorry pr0f I had to go there... with all the talk of real science that goes on in this thread, your comments are pretty deflating


Again... I'm not really in the mood to dig through the posts, but just a few pages back someone posted something about how the fiji purp was previously manufactured by Geissman, before KZ made them... and that the chart was confirmed for the Geissman version but not the KZ bulb... I believe that is the closest I've heard in this thread to an actual confirmation of the bulb.

Not sure why you think that not having solid evidence of this one bulb in a scientific chart form is grounds for disregarding the sound science and logic presented throughout the thread otherwise. Not to mention the evidence. But to each their own.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 29, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Again... I'm not really in the mood to dig through the posts, but just a few pages back someone posted something about how the fiji purp was previously manufactured by Geissman, before KZ made them... and that the chart was confirmed for the Geissman version but not the KZ bulb... I believe that is the closest I've heard in this thread to an actual confirmation of the bulb.


Sorry, this is just whackadoo. I suggest you go ahead and read through the posts.



AltarNation said:


> Not sure why you think that not having solid evidence of this one bulb in a scientific chart form is grounds for disregarding the sound science and logic presented throughout the thread otherwise. Not to mention the evidence. But to each their own.


Not sure why you think I am disregarding sound science and logic. Or evidence. I was actually criticizing the opposite. Anyways.


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## AltarNation (Nov 29, 2011)

Like I said, to each their own. You can call me whackadoo all day man, I don't really care. These bulbs are growing nice plants. I can't speak for Pr0f and his science. I'm not here to prove anything to anyone, just to learn something interesting and attempt to apply it, and it is working for me.

If you read my post again you will see that I said, "this is the closest we've come to an actual confirmation of the bulb." Which, in case you didn't realize, is basically the same thing as saying that it remains uncomfirmed. And you turn around and toss insults. Okay.

To be clear, it just sounded like you were saying that because he uses one bulb that doesn't have a chart to back it up that we should discount the rest of his research. If that is not what you meant, I apologize.

-

Bout done with being a part of this thread at this point... seems like it's just being used as a grounds for people to argue at this point. I'll be sure to put up a journal post with more pics and harvest pics in the near future, so anyone who's interested, feel free to look out for that.

Thanks again Pr0f, your help's been invaluable.

Peace out guys.


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## organicbynature (Nov 29, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Like I said, to each their own. You can call me whackadoo all day man, I don't really care. These bulbs are growing nice plants. I can't speak for Pr0f and his science. I'm not here to prove anything to anyone, just to learn something interesting and attempt to apply it, and it is working for me.
> 
> If you read my post again you will see that I said, "this is the closest we've come to an actual confirmation of the bulb." Which, in case you didn't realize, is basically the same thing as saying that it remains uncomfirmed. And you turn around and toss insults. Okay.
> 
> ...


I think sometimes in this thread (and of course, elsewhere) opinion/anecdotes and "scientific fact" get confused. I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that the Fiji is a bad bulb, that you can't grow cannabis with it, or that it invalidates anything else.

However, the bulb has at times in this thread been promoted as THE bulb to use. Prof mentions at one point (before the graph issue came up) that you can use all Fiji's if you want, though it would be expensive. The only problem with this is that we don't have good information regarding this bulb. If it was mentioned somewhere (besides a couple pages back) that the Fiji is the same bulb as the one that we have the chart for, I didn't see that. I don't think it happened, but anyone can feel free to link the post (again, I know that was said recently, but I'm not sure what it was referencing).

Can you grow with Fiji's? Yes. Does it work well? Early results seem to suggest it does. Is it better than some of the less expensive alternatives? We have no idea, because we don't know exactly what the bulb is putting out and we don't have any comparisons.

It may be the greatest bulb available to us, hopefully so at $30 a pop, or it may be comparable to or even worse than less expensive alternatives. We don't know, which is OK as long as we don't act like we do.

Personally, I don't see enough evidence that those particular bulbs are worth $30 for me to drop the extra cash on them. I went with the Flora Suns for my base at $10 ea. You (whomever) can tell me the Fiji's are better, but there's really no evidence to that effect.

That's my two cents.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 29, 2011)

Ok, just simma down now, simma down! lol

Altar, nobody is calling you whackadoo, tossing insults at you, or discounting the good pr0f's research! I posted a 'reply with quote' to specific comments that were made by the pr0f concerning the KZ Fiji Purple spectrum. This subject material dates back nearly 3 months ago to some very informative discussions on pages 52-57 of this thread, in which it was shown that the graph for the fiji purple does not exist, nor has it ever existed. The fiji purple was never manufactured by any other company besides KZ. The spectrum we are talking about belongs to a company called nLite and their PURple bulb, which you cannot purchase. In my reply to the pr0f, I criticized what I perceived to be a public lapse in his scientific method, the same method that he has upheld here so dearly (which we should all thank him for!), and that we should all adhere to as we press forward. He is a leader here, and this is his thread. He has proven his theories, and attracted lots of 'students.' I think that the pr0f is a big boy, and can handle the criticism. I also don't think that the pr0f wants one of the end results of his work here to be a bunch of misled consumers running out and buying up KZ Fiji Purples under false pretenses. I dunno... maybe it is lol! Maybe he is getting a kickback! AHHHH THAT'S IT!!! lol

Just go read pages 52-57. You were providing false information... lots of it. That is what I am calling whackadoo... not you personally! The fiji purple was never manufactured by any other company besides KZ. Giesemann never made it. I am guessing you concluded that they did because of the image with the unfortunate and obviously mislabeled filename "giesemann fiji purple" that was posted in that Practical Coral Farming acticle. We've been through this. The spectrum we are talking about belongs to a company called nLite and their PURple bulb, which you cannot purchase. If it is insulting to you that I am pointing this out, and making you feel that I am attempting to discount the rest of pr0f's research, then you are indeed sorely mistaken =D Love your pics! Keep up the good work


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## falcon223 (Nov 29, 2011)

Shit no Alter Nation you got to hang around, and see what comes next. I like to hear your in put.
I think you have been productive here.
Might be a new bulb out soon, just because of this thread.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 29, 2011)

Does this help in any way?
Fiji purple, scroll down
http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html







*Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple* - Do you know how nearly impossible it was to find this spectral graph? I actually can't even remember how I came across it, but this is the graph for KZ's Fiji Purple. This bulb is pinkish in appearance, and tends to bring out more of the red colors in corals. I've had great results with these bulbs, and when combined with a giesemann pure actinic they make the colors really glow. My favorite combination at the moment in my 8 bulb fixtures are 6 x ATI Blue Plus, 1 Fiji Purple, and 1 Pure Actinic. In my SPS system I replaced the pure actinic with an ATI Aquaspezial.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 29, 2011)

oh boy... lol


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## organicbynature (Nov 29, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> Does this help in any way?
> Fiji purple, scroll down
> http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html
> 
> ...


No, that perpetuates the confusion. This might help though: 







*NOT THE Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple* - Do you know how nearly impossible it was to find this spectral graph? I actually can't even remember how I came across it, in fact this might not even be the graph for the Fiji Purple. It might be the graph for the nLite PURple, a bulb that is no longer available. However, I'm (presumably) confused and suppose I'll just go ahead and mis-represent this graph to the community, which well then perpetuate the bad information until the graph is commonly mis-identified as the Fiji Purple, even though Korallen Zucht has been clear that there are no publicly available spectrum graphs for their bulbs. What harm could it do?


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 29, 2011)

Just trying to be helpful and this is what I get
Fahgeddabowtit


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## Redoctober (Nov 29, 2011)

> Are you anti javascript for a particular reason?


 Once when I was young, Javascript pants'd me in front of the whole school...I never got over it  Actually I have to turn it off for proxy reasons. 

Please Altar, don't leave this thread! We need you around here and more like you who are dedicated to this research and performing these experiments which benefit us all. And you can't leave before I get my T5  I know you said you're going to set up a journal and I can't wait to see your results. Everything looks great so far. The Pr0fesseur will be pissed if he hears this so nobody tell him I asked you this  but I am curious about the yield as well. I think we've gone beyond the Pr0f's initial goal, which was to prove that these lamps are effective for growing and maintaining plantlife throughout it's entire life cycle. Now I believe we are ready for the exciting part where we can begin to look at and talk about performance...or maybe it's just me who's excited! But to quote Rodney Dangerfield "keep it fair, keep it fair!" We must do fair comparisons. Comparing a 432W grow to a 600 or 1000W HPS isn't really a terribly fair, or scientific trial. 

As for the Fiji Purple discussion, I believe we will obtain the correct data one day, but for now, can everyone just accept the fact that they are very good bulbs and work for growing. I've been reading some coral forums and have heard pretty much unanimous support for them. Fish tank owners and reef enthusiasts love them and say their coral has never flourished so much as with these lights. Granted coral is a bit of a different plant, but still performs the same plant operation of photosynthesis. So time will tell if they are worth the money, but like organicbynature said, if you don't feel comfortable paying the higher price, go with something more affordable. The best way to determine their efficacy would be to do and all Fiji grow side by side with a no Fiji. Short of that, it's all speculative.


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## organicbynature (Nov 29, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> Just trying to be helpful and this is what I get
> Fahgeddabowtit


No worries, bro. 

That's the graph that's circulating around. That guy put it in his article and then it spread from there. As previously mentioned, we found out the graph belonged to a different bulb about 55 pages into the thread.

I posted that because I thought it should be clear to people who are just popping in and not reading all the way through the thread that there is no Fiji Purple graph as of this time.

Cheers!


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 29, 2011)

I sent an email to *Korallen Zucht maybe theyll cough it up...

*


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## organicbynature (Nov 29, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> I sent an email to *Korallen Zucht maybe theyll cough it up...
> 
> *


They've reportedly been pretty definitive about not releasing a graph for the bulb, but let us know what they say! Who knows, maybe if enough people bug them about it they'll change their minds. 

It would be great if the bulb were shown to be as good as expected!


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## Redoctober (Nov 30, 2011)

So I've been looking at a few fixtures and need a little advice on which one to go with, never having owned a T5 before. So I'll list them first and then give my thoughts: 

New Wave T5-48 8x lamp fixture - $264 

Quantum Badboy T5-48 8x Lamp fixture w/o bulbs- $190 

Sun Blaze T5-48 4FT 8x Lamp T5 Grow Light - $190 

Wave Point T5-48 4x lamp 54w T5 HO 4 Lamp Lighting System - $252 

So I guess I was originally thinking about the Badboy or the Sun Blaze because they are the same price. I don't know if the Sun Blaze has individual reflectors like the Badboy, or if it has the dual switches so you can turn on only 4 bulbs instead of the full 8. For those reasons I was tending towards to Badboy. My only reservation was that many people throughout the thread commented on it's shoddy assembly and tendency towards troubled operation. 

The New Wave is an alternative, and here is a very interesting comment on the description of the fixture from Specialty Lights website: "Other T5 Light features include a solid state electronic ballast that is enclosed in the fixture and does not emit heat, noise or vibration." Here's the link so you can read it for yourselves and not take my word for it: New Wave T5 

I can't see how that could possibly be true about the does not emit heat part right? If it's true then it's a no-brainer which light to get since many have said that they still struggle with heat issues from the ballasts. 

The Wave Point I threw in because the Pr0fesseur had said somewhere in the thread that if budget was no concern, it would be his top choice, but it only has 4 lamps instead of 8. Perhaps the Pr0fesseur might chime in and explain his reasons for loving this light? 
What does it do that the others don't?
Does it take care of the heat issue? 

I had hoped to find an alternative to having to get the Solar Wind T5 because then I will have to do the whole duct and fan setup which is really annoying seeing as I am going to do a sealed room. I wish that the ballasts didn't give off heat. Funnily enough, the new HID electronic digital ballasts give off very little (if any) heat, so I wonder why T5 can't be the same. Damn you HEAT!!!


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 30, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> I sent an email to *Korallen Zucht maybe theyll cough it up...
> 
> *


been there done that... posted replies... good luck!


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 30, 2011)

They say they do not release that information, at least they replied. Maybe if enough ask they will do it?


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## PetFlora (Nov 30, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Once when I was young, Javascript pants'd me in front of the whole school...I never got over it  Actually I have to turn it off for proxy reasons.
> 
> Please Altar, don't leave this thread! We need you around here and more like you who are dedicated to this research and performing these experiments which benefit us all. And you can't leave before I get my T5  I know you said you're going to set up a journal and I can't wait to see your results. Everything looks great so far. The Pr0fesseur will be pissed if he hears this so nobody tell him I asked you this  but I am curious about the yield as well. I think we've gone beyond the Pr0f's initial goal, which was to prove that these lamps are effective for growing and maintaining plantlife throughout it's entire life cycle. Now I believe we are ready for the exciting part where we can begin to look at and talk about performance...or maybe it's just me who's excited! But to quote Rodney Dangerfield "keep it fair, keep it fair!" We must do fair comparisons. Comparing a 432W grow to a 600 or 1000W HPS isn't really a terribly fair, or scientific trial.
> 
> As for the Fiji Purple discussion, I believe we will obtain the correct data one day, but for now, can everyone just accept the fact that they are very good bulbs and work for growing. I've been reading some coral forums and have heard pretty much unanimous support for them. Fish tank owners and reef enthusiasts love them and say their coral has never flourished so much as with these lights. Granted coral is a bit of a different plant, but still performs the same plant operation of photosynthesis. So time will tell if they are worth the money, but like organicbynature said, if you don't feel comfortable paying the higher price, go with something more affordable. The best way to determine their efficacy would be to do and all Fiji grow side by side with a no Fiji. Short of that, it's all speculative.


Coral growers raving about Fiji, but compared to what... Coral Waves? That seems to be the test that would put this topic to bed. I would gladly pay more* IF *I was CERTAIN I was getting my money's worth. 

On a positive note, I am seeing new pistils and trics since reducing ppms to ~ 700 and diluting when ~ 800. It would be awesome if she started fattening up again, but she is a Sat, so she may not fatten up much anyway, but as long as the calyxes and trics do, then I'm golden. 

I will take potency per gram over volume any day. The less I smoke to get high the better it is on my lungs


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## PetFlora (Nov 30, 2011)

I think the important thing to focus on here is PAR. It can be achieved using various combinations of coral bulbs

Here's the Wave Point Coral Wave graph (can't copy image). Currently $14.75 from Aquarium Specialties. 

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/w/p/wp-coralwave_2.jpg 

They sell the Fiji Purple for $31.40
 
IF we could believe the Fiji graph for PAR, I am thinking the combination of Coral Wave + Red Life compares, but I get twice the bulbs/coverage for ~ the same money. Yes/No? 





*Veg* I am using: 2 UVL Aqua Suns +2 Coral Waves + 2 ATI Blue Special + 2 Quantum Grow 6500K, which is actually a decent grow bulb and I have 8 of them to use somewhere. *

Flower* I am using: 2 CWs + 3 UVL Red Life/Sun (which fills in the reds missing from the CW) + 2 ATI Blue Specials @ $19.95 (nice 550 spike + reds) and one Quantum Bloom 2900K on the outside. Yes it needs replacing, but I bought 8 of them too prior to finding Pr0f's thread.


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## hyroot (Nov 30, 2011)

The coral wave does not compare to any of them. you can't even use the coral wave during veg. That bulb has way more infrared than any bulb. Infrared induces flowering. 1 coral wave bulb on a 6 bulb on a 18 hour on 6 hour off, you will see buds forming in 1 to 3 days. The younger the plant the sooner it causes flowering. I learned that twice the hard way. No one here seems to read the chart right. AGAIN THE BIG RED SPIKE PEAKS AT 765 NM. That is passed 700 nm which means that spike is INFRARED!!!!!!!!!!! I have said this same thing already 4 other time in this thread. The red spikes in all the other bulbs are around 630 nm or 660 nm. That is before or below 700nm which means its on the visible par scale betweeb 400 nm and 700 nm.

The coral wave has 35% infrared at 765 nm


NM - NANOMETERS - the numbers that run horizontally across the bottom. 

% of energy - numbers that runs vertically usually on the left side.


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## Psytranceorgy (Nov 30, 2011)

Hey guys, I just noticed where some of you were talking about the UVL Red Sun/Red Life spectrum on page 128ish... so I figured that I would post the emails I exchanged with them back on 9/9/11 for your perusal:

*[FONT=&quot]Sorry for the late response, we've been shorthanded and extremely busy. So not to make the graphs more confusing then they are is to simply show where the light peaks are. The lamps are all measured differently on the x-axis chart and should not be used to show light intensity. The Red Sun lamp is peaking at 633nm which is very specific in the red spectral peak. Below is my phone # if you would like to call me.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Regards,
Jeff Saghy
UV Lighting Co.
[email protected][/FONT]* *
[FONT=&quot](800) 435-7779 x209[/FONT]* 


[FONT=&quot]----- Original Message ----- [/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]From:[/FONT]*
*[FONT=&quot]To:[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] [email protected] [/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Sent:[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] Friday, September 09, 2011 2:33 PM[/FONT]
*[FONT=&quot]Subject:[/FONT]*[FONT=&quot] T5 V-HO bulbs | Spectrum graphs on website[/FONT]

Hello,

I am researching the optimum combination of T5 bulbs for my system. It is wonderful that you have spectrum graphs for each of your T5 bulbs. However, I have found that the information provided is VERY confusing. 

FIrst of all, what is the unit of measurement of the x-axis in the graphs anyways? It is reported as a numerical value, with no unit of measurement... 

Also, suddenly in the graph for the Red Sun bulb, it is given in percentages???

Furthermore, I have found that the x-axis in each of the graphs is scaled differently in magnitude.

For example, the first five T5 bulbs on the site share the same x-axis measure (numerical), but the magnitude ranges greatly!

The 75.25, 454 and Indigo Sun bulbs x-axis range from zero to 5.00E-05 (0.00005)
The Actinic White and Aquasun bulbs x-axis range from zero to 1.00E+00 (1)
The Super Actinic x-axis ranges from zero all the way up to 2.5E+00 (2.5)

Is this correct? If so, it suggests that none of the light peaks from the 75.25, 454, and Indigo Sun bulbs have even the slightest fraction of the light intensity??? (or whatever that missing unit of measurement is) that the other bulbs have in their light peaks.

And the Red Sun bulb well I have no idea how to make any direct comparison in magnitude with that graph, given the x-axis is in a completely different measurement altogether (percentages), and the unit of measurement is still missing
Any assistance that you could provide in this matter would be greatly appreciated!


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## PetFlora (Dec 1, 2011)

*Hyroot*: Thanks. I am crystal now on when to use the Coral Wave. I did buy them for flower, but thought I could also use them for veg.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Dec 1, 2011)

I have a bunch of old T12 fixtyres, does anybody think it would be worth using them or would I be better starting over with T5 fixtures for more power?


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 1, 2011)

Well everything seems to be going good i think with my first grow. This is what it looks like after 15 days of flower. I took the pics as soon as the lights went out, i'll try to get some better shots in another week or so. Also I trimmed up 3 or 4 branches of "new" growth that was buried in the middle of the plant. It had some new branches starting off the stem at the bottom that looked really sad/weak. I was wondering if i should do any more trimming. I don't plan on doing any kind of supercropping or anything major like that my first go and not knowing the exact genetics. (It was a seed given to me by a friend, i know its good but it's over a year old and i forgot what he called it, i think it was a sharks breath or tooth, something like that, could be wrong though. 

Also i think its some kind of indica dom because of how bushy it is. Is that an accurate guess? I just switched over from transition to bloom to full bloom and ripening nutes. I was wondering what if any "flower booster" or that kind of food that I should use and when. As it is now, it's about 2.5 ft tall and close to that as wide. I'm hoping I can get at least 1.5oz dried as that would hold me over till next is done. That seem reasonable? Thanks for the advice/tips.


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 1, 2011)

here are some better shots today. any advice is appreciated. I'm glad i stumbled upon this thread early before i got started because i can't imagine better results so far under anything else. 
1.stem, 2.top view 3. cola 4. cola 5. bush 6.roots



starting of flowering


a view of the stem and how tall it is.


just a full frontal shot, glad to see the ornaments are showing up on the christmas tree


another view of the starting of flowering to top of plant




the roots are starting to come out of the bottom of the 5 gallon bucket..... should i just fill up the drain bucket i have it in now,attach them for the time being, and put the entire thing on a draining dish, or just start putting it on a dish after cutting exposed roots to smother new roots trying to come out and force them back up. i only put it in a 5 gallon about 2 months ago from a 3gallon and it wasn't even close to being rootbound then. also like i said in previous post, i'll take any tips or suggestions on trimming any new growth off the main stem the bottom 6 inches or so and anything i should be adding as far as nutes for a flower booster type stuff. 

a top down view obviously


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## AltarNation (Dec 1, 2011)

Alright alright guys, I overreacted, I apologize. I'll stick around and try to keep contributing, though I am probably the last guy to ask anyway since I am so new to all this.

I am curious about what Hyroot says about the infrared in Coral Waves triggering flowering... I can understand how that might trigger flowering if it's all you're using, but if you're dominating with a lot of blue spectrum that should keep the issue at bay, no? Pr0f seemed to suggest that as long as you're dominant towards blue it will stay in veg, and if you add enough red it will bounce toward flowering... and moreso, what about the time frame? If you have more blue bulbs than red-containing bulbs and you keep it away from 12 hours of darkness, I would think this would keep vegging?

I guess I'll be finding out on my own soon enough as when my ladies are done I will be moving some vegging plants out of my CFL chamber and into there to get more juice to them, but I intend to keep vegging them for some time still. The thing is I believe I will be keeping the coral waves in play, but my red suns will be replaced with blue bulbs again. Honestly I can't remember WHEN I got my coral waves and/or whether I had vegging going under them.

I'll let you guys know if it triggers flowering when I bring them in. The setup will be dominant towards blue, but will have coral waves and fiji purps still involved... if for no other reason, that I don't have any other PAR spectrum bulbs to put in place of the waves. I could put some 6000k agromax bulbs in instead I guess, but would rather stick with PAR spectrum bulbs.

I will be crossing my fingers that htey stay in veg, as I intend to do some serious vegging on these babies... they're in 5 gal cloth garden bags this time, so there is a lot more root space and it would be a waste if they didn't get a good chance to use that space. I was planning on going bigger this time, with a long veg period and a lot of supercropping to keep them growing mostly horizontal. There will only be 3 plants total instead of 7, under the same light and in the same space. So a lot more branching and a lot more vegging.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> here are some better shots today. any advice is appreciated. I'm glad i stumbled upon this thread early before i got started because i can't imagine better results so far under anything else.
> 1.stem, 2.top view 3. cola 4. cola 5. bush 6.roots
> 
> 
> ...


DONT DO ANYTHING! IT LOOKS GREAT! ROOTS will always come out the bottom of anything you put plants in to. DONT worry about it and let the roots do their thing whether they dry up or just sit there. Just keep a drain dish under it and keep it in flower mode. KEEP UP the good work my friend! This is one of the best, nicely bonsai pruned trees I've ever seen!!!!!!
Thank you for sharing the photo. Are you hand watering it or do you have a drip line attached somewhere?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Alright alright guys, I overreacted, I apologize. I'll stick around and try to keep contributing, though I am probably the last guy to ask anyway since I am so new to all this.
> 
> I am curious about what Hyroot says about the infrared in Coral Waves triggering flowering... I can understand how that might trigger flowering if it's all you're using, but if you're dominating with a lot of blue spectrum that should keep the issue at bay, no? Pr0f seemed to suggest that as long as you're dominant towards blue it will stay in veg, and if you add enough red it will bounce toward flowering... and moreso, what about the time frame? If you have more blue bulbs than red-containing bulbs and you keep it away from 12 hours of darkness, I would think this would keep vegging?
> 
> ...


Here people are saying that 630 nm is more for veg and 660 is more for flower. Not sure if it helps, but take a look at this page.
http://youcannect.com/forums/topic/82/led


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## AltarNation (Dec 1, 2011)

Looking great Ohio... very healthy. If I were you I would consider supercropping or otherwise training that top cola so that it's closer to the height of the others, then you could get the whole thing closer to your light! But it looks great as is and probably isn't necessary... just love those even canopies


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## AltarNation (Dec 1, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> Here people are saying that 630 nm is more for veg and 660 is more for flower. Not sure if it helps, but take a look at this page.
> http://youcannect.com/forums/topic/82/led



Hm... didn't read the page yet, but if that is accurate, maybe I should leave the red suns in and pull the coral waves for veg. Seems crazy with the reds being so obviously red, but if 630 is good for veg and the infrared is more flower friendly, maybe I should put the blues in place of my coral waves instead for veg.

Hyroot, pr0f, interested in your assessment of this concept.

Obviously the red suns are around 630 which is (according to the link provided) being suggested to be ideal for veg... but is it worth it to sacrifice all the blue activity in the coral waves if I did the above? Keeping in mind that I'd have a handful of other blue bulbs compensating as well...

...can barely remember what my blue bulb lineup is now that they've been packed up in tubes for so long during flower. D'oh.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

I've read through this whole thread and I'm totally down with all the info. Really appreciate it everyone. I've purchased about 20 new bulbs of a rainbow of colors to try this out myself. 

Also, I know that site I posted doesn't say anything about infra-red, but I still think it might be a place to start for searching for info.

Peace,
Sage


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Hm... didn't read the page yet, but if that is accurate, maybe I should leave the red suns in and pull the coral waves for veg. Seems crazy with the reds being so obviously red, but if 630 is good for veg and the infrared is more flower friendly, maybe I should put the blues in place of my coral waves instead for veg.


Earlier in this thread someone said FOR SURE, take the coral waves out for veg, but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying them all out, who knows what will happen. It could all be strain specific you know? I have two 2x2 8 bulb T5 panels I will be doing a side by side comparison with the coral sun in one and the red sun in the other for veg. Also, I don't think the red is very important for vegging, I think that any daylight bulb that has a small spike of 630nm and 660nm should work fine. I purchased 2 of the FloraSuns for just that reason.
I was thinking a mixture of Fiji Purple, ATI Blue Plus, and Flora Sun would be a good mix. Not sure on the Super Actinic if that would go in there for veg or not?? I'm still impartial on the UV for vegging, it kind of sounds more harmful than good. It also sounds like if you want your leaves to be wider and bigger that you need more red in your veg, therefore, like you just said, maybe put a Red Sun in the mix for veg as well?


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## AltarNation (Dec 1, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> Earlier in this thread someone said FOR SURE, take the coral waves out for veg, but I don't think there is anything wrong with trying them all out, who knows what will happen. It could all be strain specific you know? I have two 2x2 8 bulb T5 panels I will be doing a side by side comparison with the coral sun in one and the red sun in the other for veg. Also, I don't think the red is very important for vegging, I think that any daylight bulb that has a small spike of 630nm and 660nm should work fine. I purchased 2 of the FloraSuns for just that reason.
> I was thinking a mixture of Fiji Purple, ATI Blue Plus, and Flora Sun would be a good mix. Not sure on the Super Actinic if that would go in there for veg or not?? I'm still impartial on the UV for vegging, it kind of sounds more harmful than good. It also sounds like if you want your leaves to be wider and bigger that you need more red in your veg, therefore, like you just said, maybe put a Red Sun in the mix for veg as well?


Yeah, I hear you man. My blue lineup includes Super Blue Actinic, 454s, and a 75.25... I could leave one coral wave and one red sun and swap out one of each too. Hmmm. I am going to have to think on this heavily over the next week or so... not much more time to choose though, my ladies are getting closer and closer to harvest.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah, I hear you man. My blue lineup includes Super Blue Actinic, 454s, and a 75.25... I could leave one coral wave and one red sun and swap out one of each too. Hmmm. I am going to have to think on this heavily over the next week or so... not much more time to choose though, my ladies are getting closer and closer to harvest.


I've heard that UV helps build resin the last couple weeks of flower. Not sure how true this would be with CFLs, but what about swapping out with some more SUPER Actinic?


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## AltarNation (Dec 1, 2011)

Well, I'm not gonna buy any more bulbs, can't afford to at this point. So I gotta work with what I've already got. The CFLs are just a temporary hold over in a second chamber to keep 'em alive until I switch 'em into the main chamber, which will be right when my current crop finishes. (Hopefully next week.)


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

Well, all I can say is your set up and photos look F'n AMAZING! I would hate to be the one that has to scrub all your equipment out and clean it when you are done though, LOL


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## AltarNation (Dec 1, 2011)

eh? You must be thinking of DWC's grow. I am all soil. No scrubbing here.  Just a quick wipedown of my reflectors and bulbs and I'm good go to again.


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## AssassinofYouth (Dec 1, 2011)

pr0fesseur, I am thinking of running these bulbs in the New Wave-28 (my grow box is only 34 inches on the inside, I wish I could use a badboy)
I am not exactly trying to be lazy but do you think you could edit your first post for us, giving the bulbs to use and when? I am a noob to t5, and your thread is very large, although interesting, a lot of misinformation by others and what not.

I have a 4 bulb t5 setup for veg, and 8 bulb setup for flower.. 

I am expecting a read the thread noob response though.


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 1, 2011)

okthanks2, i hand water, i make up a batch of nute solution in a 5gallon water cooler type jug and just pour out into a gallon jug and use as needed. I put a airstone in the water for a few hours before i water. All through veg i'd use nute solution every few days, when soil felt dry when i'd finger it deep......., anyway, if i saw the tips of leaves start to curl or a hint of yellow i'd water with a gallon of water for about 3 days to try and flush some nutes out. Now in flower i've been using nute solution about every 2 1/2 to 3 days it seems before soil is pretty dry. I mean i waited until it was bone dry on top and i could barely feel a hint of cool/wet in soil a 4-5 inches deep. Only because i read a lot of people overwater, and i saw a lot recommending waiting until day 3 to even check soil(obviously the bigger they get, more they drink so i started checking every other day, now i check daily). I haven't seen any signs of the yellowing on tips and curling that i'd get in veg sometimes after i've been doing a gallon of nute solution every 36-48 hours now. The gallon seems to be about the perfect amount to get a little bit of runoff for me, but only maybe 1/2 inch in bottom of that bucket so probably about 2-3 cups. Also anyone have idea if it's indica vs sativa? i think it's more indica because of the bushyness, darker color, and i dunno what else. The fan leaves look a little more sativa, but not quite as long, to me when i compare to indica vs sativa pics. 




AltarNation said:


> Looking great Ohio... very healthy. If I were you I would consider supercropping or otherwise training that top cola so that it's closer to the height of the others, then you could get the whole thing closer to your light! But it looks great as is and probably isn't necessary... just love those even canopies


i actually thought about that a few days ago, but i'm worried i'll end up breaking the stems this far along now that they are flowering i didn't know if it would be too much stress on it in flower. I'll probably fiddle around tonight and start seeing what i can do. I was also thinking of getting a second light to hang vertically with the bulbs pointing towards side of plant ya know like a "right angle of light" type setup with a turntable to keep a "even exposure" for the sides too. I already have a turntable that was used for glass art that could hold 75lbs. Crazy idea but since i only plan on doing 1 at a time really it might be an interesting experiment for people like me.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> eh? You must be thinking of DWC's grow. I am all soil. No scrubbing here.  Just a quick wipedown of my reflectors and bulbs and I'm good go to again.


 oh yeah, thats what I meant lol :/


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

ohiogrown03 Ya, 1 gallon is what I water 5 gallon of soil with and it works perfectly. I usually feed every water with very diluted solution (1/4 to 1/2). I'm sure it doesn't matter though.


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## falcon223 (Dec 1, 2011)

Wow Ohio that is awesome. I think you have a green thumb, you should be telling us how to grow. I cant believe 
you got that with one seed.

I am glad you are here Alter. I veg under T8s, with regaler bulbs. I don't think you need a lot of par for veg. But that is just
the way I do it. But flower is another thing.


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## falcon223 (Dec 1, 2011)

Assassin , You are right. I think the professor put all the info you need in their some where? 
I know this is a lot to read. but I cant remember all the bulb names.


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## AssassinofYouth (Dec 1, 2011)

I mean it is listed in the sig, but it doesn't specify exactly when and how many exactly..


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## hyroot (Dec 1, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *Hyroot*: Thanks. I am crystal now on when to use the Coral Wave. I did buy them for flower, but thought I could also use them for veg.


 I did the same thing. the first time i had 2 coral waves and 4 6500k bulbs. I had 2 foot bushy ones that were under a 400 hps then moved under the t5 with 2 corals waves. 2 days later they started flowering so I took one coral wave out and swapped it with the aquablue special from my flower. with one coral they were fine. i had to cut off little buds and topped the ones that I had fimmed. Then a few days ago I put a bunch of clones into soil at the end of the night. Then15 hours later there were buds on 3 different strains. not every one had flowered but quite a few did. i pulled that bulb out and threw in the stock 6500k bulb.

In a 6bulb ,I had 4 6500k bulbs, 1 aquablue special, 1 coral wave. 35% infrared is too much for veg apparently.


15 hour flowered


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## hyroot (Dec 1, 2011)

AssassinofYouth said:


> pr0fesseur, I am thinking of running these bulbs in the New Wave-28 (my grow box is only 34 inches on the inside, I wish I could use a badboy)
> I am not exactly trying to be lazy but do you think you could edit your first post for us, giving the bulbs to use and when? I am a noob to t5, and your thread is very large, although interesting, a lot of misinformation by others and what not.
> 
> I have a 4 bulb t5 setup for veg, and 8 bulb setup for flower..
> ...



some one posted this before and i saved it so........


4 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE / FIJI ................................................BL OOM/FLOWER=SAME

6 BULB - VEG = FIJI / BLUE1 / 75.25 / FIJI / RED / BLUE2 .....................BLOOM/FLOWER = Replace 75.25 with RED

8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI .....BLOOM/FLOWER = Replace 75.25 with RED

BLUE1 = UVL Super ACTINIC @ 420nm
BLUE2 = UVL 454nm
RED = UVL RED SUN 630nm
FIJI = KorallenZucht FIJI PURPLE 630nm & 440nm
75.25 = UVL 75.25 (VEG ONLY)


you can substitute coral waves for the blues during flower or if you rock a 2ft they still make the pro color for 2 ft.


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## hyroot (Dec 1, 2011)

DAY 56 sitting in dark til tomorrow when they get chopped mu whahahaha (dr. evil laugh)




Day 57 getting chopped in a week maybe longer


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 1, 2011)

not trying to hijack the thread or step on prof's toes, but here is just a few of the things people(including myself) try to dig back through the thread to find. _ I DID NOT COME UP WITH ANY OF THE FOLLOWING, THIS IS ONLY REPLIES REPOSTED FROM PROF AND UNDERCURRENTDWC:_

* well again 60/40 r/g for bloom
vice versa for grow 
Your gonna want 60/40 red/blue...the 2900k are yellow.... that really doesent help... actinics will stunt growth and prevent stretching... too much red and its all stretch..*

* newbs should stick with pr0fs bulbs/recommendations until they have a grow under their belt... 
depending on your grow area i would suggest starting with an 8 bulb heres why ...
get an 8 bulb and populate only 4
when your plants start getting ready for bloom you can drop in another 4 and stagger your cost... i suggest owning a total of 10-12 bulbs that you can switch out for veg/bloom.
most fixtures have more than one switch if they dont theyre crap!... stay far away from the value fixtures... the ballasts are what your after ballasts are worth their weight in herb...*

 *I cant stress enough the importance of the t5 with internal reflector....*

*12 bulbs you would probably want 3x4 bulb combinations or 4x3 bulb combinations...

something like this
for veg
fiji
actinic plus
454 or 75.25
F
A
4
F
A
4
F
A
4

or 

F
A+
75
454
*repeat*

*Korallen Zucht Fiji Purple 
UVL 454nm with internal reflector 
UVL Red Suns/Red Life
ULV Super Actinic @ 420nm with internal reflector
UVL 75.25 with internal reflector*
(end of reposted info)

a few of my own thoughts(yes me not pr0f so take it with a lot of salt), even though this is my first grow, i have had an outdoor veggie/herb/spice garden for about 5 years and seem to have a knack for this kind of stuff. Not trying to toot my own horn here, but I find if you read a lot about a topic and then use a little bit of your own intelligence and common sense and just go for it you can surprise yourself. In this scenario i'm not trying to sound like a dick but the order of the bulbs is not really going to make or break this kind of setup. Consider how many bulbs you have, remember the 60/40 Blue for veg, and 60/40 Red for bloom and divide try to space out evenly. Obviously if you might not have perfect spacing to fit the bulbs you need to get the 60/40 ratio you want, but i just did the best i could to alternate bulbs when i could. 

Assassin, for 4 bulb, i'd maybe try the following (maybe even another 454,72/25,or actinic plus, but i think that might be a little too much blue for the 60/40 ratio)
*fiji
actinic plus
454 or 75.25
fiji*

I'd just go with what i have in bold unless prof or undercurrentdwc or someone who has a little more experience suggests something else. Thats the same order of bulbs i have in my 8 lamp, same order repeated twice basically. For the flower i have, (fiji, actinic plus, red, 75/25, fiji, red, 454, fiji). Working fine for me so far. As far as where to get bulbs and links, you now have names of bulbs above, just do some searching. not only for the bulb names, but for aquarium stores in your area. I've found it much easier to just go to an aquarium store thats only 40 minutes away and get the same bulbs without any shipping stress on bulbs, let alone cost. They even gave me 10% off my first order with them just because I told them I wanted to use a local shop rather than an internet distributor. A little bit of kissass and just being a friendly person can go a long way with a locally owned business. they still make money, you get a deal, everyone's happy.

sorry for getting sidetracked and i hope prof isn't upset for reposting some stuff i thought a lot of people are always looking for. There is a lot of science and interesting stuff in this thread that i won't even bother trying to repost or find the most important content out of those posts. There is just too much and it's all very important to what we are all looking for here. So while you can try and shortcut and find the key posts you need to keep going, you really should go back and read the thread post by post when you have time here and there so you can have some of the knowledge in your head so you can make some decisions based on what you read if you can't find exactly the same bulb or you find a new bulb that meets the criteria of what has been discussed here. 

Thanks again prof for starting this thread and keeping it going smooth.


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 1, 2011)

also real quick i was going to try and see what i can do to try and keep the top down a little by tying some string or whatever i can come up with to try and even the canopy out a little bit, i can do it during the "dark period" if i use a green flourescent right? i have regular "party" light or whatever you wanna call em that's green colored. I'm pretty sure i've read places that you can use one of these if you want to work in the room during the dark because the plant doesn't "see" it


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## hyroot (Dec 1, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> also real quick i was going to try and see what i can do to try and keep the top down a little by tying some string or whatever i can come up with to try and even the canopy out a little bit, i can do it during the "dark period" if i use a green flourescent right? i have regular "party" light or whatever you wanna call em that's green colored. I'm pretty sure i've read places that you can use one of these if you want to work in the room during the dark because the plant doesn't "see" it



Personally I wouldn't do anything in the dark. All those green lights at the hydro shop advertise that plants don't use green spectrum and that's why plants appear green to us and the people who work at the hydro shop say the same thing. We all on this thread know plants use 20% to 30% of green spectrum.. Even though its a very narrow bandwith, I still would not use it in the dark.

I have friends who do use it and they don't listen to me. My stuff is better than theirs.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

I just ordered a bunch of bulbs to use and experiment with. All of which were suggested at some point in this thread. Real anxious to try them out. Anyway, I only bought a couple different UVL bulbs and chose the ones W/O the internal reflector only because the aquarium guy said he didn't think it was necessary. I know the lighting company considers this an "upgrade" to the bulb. 
ohiogrown03 why do you say the internal reflector is important when there is a reflector built into the fixture already? My fixture has individual reflectors for each bulb. Does it have to do with narrowing the beam to penetrate the leaves at the bottom?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 1, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> *I cant stress enough the importance of the t5 with internal reflector....*


Well, I found this comment from an aquarium enthusiast on one of the reef forums, it looks like as long as you have a good reflector you don't need the internal one in the bulb: 2. Internal reflectors have an advantage where space is limited (AIO nanos for example), or when added to fixtures that start with very poor reflectors (like early generation FNI and Nova's). Would these compare to an ATI or Aquatinics reflector? No. Those reflectors will produce more usable light in a tank with standard bulbs than if you were to use bulbs with internal reflectors.



Anyway, just a heads up........


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 1, 2011)

well i won't say for sure as i was only pointing out other comments in the thread, but i assume it has to do with light intensity and distance being an inverse square function.


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## AltarNation (Dec 2, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I did the same thing. the first time i had 2 coral waves and 4 6500k bulbs. I had 2 foot bushy ones that were under a 400 hps then moved under the t5 with 2 corals waves. 2 days later they started flowering so I took one coral wave out and swapped it with the aquablue special from my flower. with one coral they were fine. i had to cut off little buds and topped the ones that I had fimmed. Then a few days ago I put a bunch of clones into soil at the end of the night. Then15 hours later there were buds on 3 different strains. not every one had flowered but quite a few did. i pulled that bulb out and threw in the stock 6500k bulb.
> 
> In a 6bulb ,I had 4 6500k bulbs, 1 aquablue special, 1 coral wave. 35% infrared is too much for veg apparently.
> 
> ...


Dang... alright, well, I've got some 6500k bulbs, I'll put those in in place of the waves for veg I guess... crud, I bought them specifically because I thought I could use them for both periods.


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## falcon223 (Dec 2, 2011)

The professor sead the internal reflector, gives you more bang ,out of your bulb. They are just better.


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## falcon223 (Dec 2, 2011)

You got any pics for us Altar? We love to see the girl's.


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## AltarNation (Dec 2, 2011)

I put up some pretty recently, but I am gonna take some new ones soon to get some assessments on ripeness anyway. My last batch of pics was on like, pg 120 i think.


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## falcon223 (Dec 2, 2011)

I am sure I saw those . I have read every page. And I love this T5 shit.


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## falcon223 (Dec 2, 2011)

Oh yea I am glad you are still here .


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## falcon223 (Dec 2, 2011)

Lights will be on in ten minutes so I can check on the girls be for I go to work.


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## PetFlora (Dec 2, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Hm... didn't read the page yet, but if that is accurate, maybe I should leave the red suns in and pull the coral waves for veg. Seems crazy with the reds being so obviously red, but if 630 is good for veg and the infrared is more flower friendly, maybe I should put the blues in place of my coral waves instead for veg.
> 
> Hyroot, pr0f, interested in your assessment of this concept.
> 
> ...


UVL makes both AquaSun (*veg)* and Red Suns/Life (*flower)*. I think the Coral Wave is just outside (or at least at the extreme ends of) PAR. 

Your point about keeping Coral Waves throughout got me thinking. Seems like as long as you don't overdo it you can run them throughout: maybe 1/8 during veg, and 2/8 during flower


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## hyroot (Dec 2, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> UVL makes both AquaSun (*veg)* and Red Suns/Life (*flower)*. I think the Coral Wave is just outside (or at least at the extreme ends of) PAR.
> 
> Your point about keeping Coal Waves throughout got me thinking. Seems like as long as you don't overdo it you can run them throughout: maybe 1/8 during veg, and 2/8 during flower




PAR is the number of photons in the visible spectrum, between 400 and 700 nm. So UV and Infrared spectrum is outside PAR. From my experience. 1 coral wave is too much infrared for veg. IR spectrum drives flowering. Maybe if you keep light on 24/7 it might work for veg. On an 18 hour cycle, 1 coral wave will cause flowering. 

The aquasun barely has any red, like 20%. I would just throw 1 redsun per 6 bulb or 2 per 8 bulb for veg. I have 1 ati aquablue special and 5 6500k bulbs. I just ordered a uvl super atinic and a uvl redsun that im going to add to same 6 bulb. I'll see how that goes.

For flower I have 2 corals waves in the blue spots. On an 8 bulb bb.


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## organicbynature (Dec 2, 2011)

Coral Waves are basically Super Actinics with some infra-red. I would use (am using) Super Actinics in their place in veg. There are Super Actinics out there that are cheaper and (potentially) more accessible than the UVLs, if getting those particular bulbs is a problem. You might be able to find some Zoo Med Coral Suns (their actinic) reasonably priced at a pet shop around town somewhere.

Here's a chart for the Coral Sun:


Internal reflectors will presumably increased the light that is focused at your plants, but I'm perfectly comfortable with my GrowBright panels with individual reflectors and 95% reflectivity.


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## MurshDawg (Dec 2, 2011)

I am running two of those zoo med bulbs. They are not bad.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Dec 2, 2011)

Just curious, there are lots and lots of posts here and I must admit I am intrigued by the efforts here. Has anyone documented using all these different grow bulbs versus other types of systems? HPS, CFL etc? Is the yield better?


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## MurshDawg (Dec 2, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> Just curious, there are lots and lots of posts here and I must admit I am intrigued by the efforts here. Has anyone documented using all these different grow bulbs versus other types of systems? HPS, CFL etc? Is the yield better?


I am trying to document my efforts. It'll take a few more months for me to finalize the findings


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks I can appreciate that. Would you be sure and start a separate forum so that it doesnt get lost in the volume here? I find this all fascinating.


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## hyroot (Dec 2, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> Just curious, there are lots and lots of posts here and I must admit I am intrigued by the efforts here. Has anyone documented using all these different grow bulbs versus other types of systems? HPS, CFL etc? Is the yield better?



I'm chopping down today and next week. So I will know later. From the looks of everything. I would say the yield is about the same give or take as what I pulled under a 1000w hps. The quality under the t5 is rediculous. Blows aways 1000w quality.


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## AltarNation (Dec 2, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Coral Waves are basically Super Actinics with some infra-red. I would use (am using) Super Actinics in their place in veg. There are Super Actinics out there that are cheaper and (potentially) more accessible than the UVLs, if getting those particular bulbs is a problem. You might be able to find some Zoo Med Coral Suns (their actinic) reasonably priced at a pet shop around town somewhere.
> 
> Here's a chart for the Coral Sun:
> View attachment 1915874


Think it would be worth it to track down some of these Coral Suns rather than just throw in some 6500k bulbs during veg? I've got the 6500k's on hand already, but I don't want to stunt growth by using them if I would get a lot better results with some new bulbs. It seems people have pretty good luck with straight 6500k setups for veg, so I'm probably gonna save money and just do that... Also, I'm looking on petco's site right now and they're quoting all the bulbs two inches short... 46" instead of 48" for instance... is this just an error on their site? I'd hate to buy bulbs and find they're two inches short of fitting in my fixture..


----------



## AltarNation (Dec 2, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I'm chopping down today and next week. So I will know later. From the looks of everything. I would say the yield is about the same give or take as what I pulled under a 1000w hps. The quality under the t5 is rediculous. Blows aways 1000w quality.



Nice. Can't wait to see the results man.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 2, 2011)

Second veg using par bulbs
5 plants
Day 21-30
410ppm
5.7ph
65-75*F
60-75%Rh














































































And a few of my 4500w HID room


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## Redoctober (Dec 2, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I'm chopping down today and next week. So I will know later. From the looks of everything. I would say the yield is about the same give or take as what I pulled under a 1000w hps. The quality under the t5 is rediculous. Blows aways 1000w quality.


 Awesome! I'm so psyched to see the pics. Your last set of pics looked incredible (the ones that were in focus  lol). So all you were using was the single, 8 lamp Badboy? Or was it 16 bulbs? If you got a comparable yield to a 1000W HPS with only 432W of T5 lamps, you may have just cured erectile dysfunction, cause I don't know how anyone could NOT have a boner after that!


----------



## organicbynature (Dec 2, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Think it would be worth it to track down some of these Coral Suns rather than just throw in some 6500k bulbs during veg? I've got the 6500k's on hand already, but I don't want to stunt growth by using them if I would get a lot better results with some new bulbs. It seems people have pretty good luck with straight 6500k setups for veg, so I'm probably gonna save money and just do that... Also, I'm looking on petco's site right now and they're quoting all the bulbs two inches short... 46" instead of 48" for instance... is this just an error on their site? I'd hate to buy bulbs and find they're two inches short of fitting in my fixture..


I'm no authority, but I expect you're fine with the 6500k's for veg, especially if you're already rocking some other PAR T5s. Just get the super actinics when it is financially convenient for you.

For what it's worth I got my zoo med bulbs from bigalspets.com for $10 each. They have free shipping on orders of $75 or more. Free shipping on T5s - nice! 

Don't worry about the 46". I've seen 45" for some bulbs too, I think. I haven't bothered to measure, but I expect they're all shorter than a full 48" - how else would they fit in a Bad Boy fixture, which is only 46.25" long?  As long as it's a 54w bulb it should fit fine for you, from what I can tell.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 3, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Think it would be worth it to track down some of these Coral Suns rather than just throw in some 6500k bulbs during veg? I've got the 6500k's on hand already, but I don't want to stunt growth by using them if I would get a lot better results with some new bulbs. It seems people have pretty good luck with straight 6500k setups for veg, so I'm probably gonna save money and just do that... Also, I'm looking on petco's site right now and they're quoting all the bulbs two inches short... 46" instead of 48" for instance... is this just an error on their site? I'd hate to buy bulbs and find they're two inches short of fitting in my fixture..


CRAZY, I just bought 2 of the Coral Suns and 2 of the Flora Suns at Petco in town here today to try out. I have 2 Coral Suns, 2 Flora Suns, and 4 of the 6500K Spectralux going and it is a very bright purple hue. I think 1 Blue Plus and 1 Red Sun in place of 2 of the Spectralux would make it perfect. The Flora Suns hit the red 660nm. Also has all the other peaks needed for photosynthesis. Seems like a good bulb so far.

They all fit in my 2 x 2 sunblaze fixture. Some places advertise the 24W 24" bulbs as 22" or 21" because that's the actually length. Same probably goes for the 54W 4 ft bulbs. If you measure them they are probably 46" or something around there.

I am aware that these daylight bulbs have extra output in regions not necessary for photosynthesis, but it does make it a little easier to see having 1 or 2 in the mix.


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## falcon223 (Dec 3, 2011)

Wow undercurrent. You don't fullarond do you. I like your setup, real professional.


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## falcon223 (Dec 3, 2011)

I found this. What do you all think about this grow bulb?





Use 54 Watt T5 high output fluorescent bulbs for 4' T5 Grow Lights from Sunlight Supply. These Fluorescent 3000K (Warm) T5 bulbs emit a red/orange spectrum that is ideal for budding and flowering.
These high output T5 bulbs have an extremely high lumen per watt rating at 5000 lumens per bulb: 54 watts = 92.59 lumens per watt. In addition These fluorescent bulbs have a very low heat factor which allows the fixture to be hung very close the plant canopy, raising light levels. This fluorescent bulb is compatible with T5HO electronic ballasts.




More Info  More T5 Bulbs


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## hyroot (Dec 3, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Awesome! I'm so psyched to see the pics. Your last set of pics looked incredible (the ones that were in focus  lol). So all you were using was the single, 8 lamp Badboy? Or was it 16 bulbs? If you got a comparable yield to a 1000W HPS with only 432W of T5 lamps, you may have just cured erectile dysfunction, cause I don't know how anyone could NOT have a boner after that!



Yes I'm using a single 8 bulb badboy. 3 fiji purps, 3 redsun, 2 coral waves. These lights are Awesome. I wish I had them 10 years ago.


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## hyroot (Dec 3, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I found this. What do you all think about this grow bulb?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



for bulbs , if you can't see a spectrum chart. do not buy


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## hyroot (Dec 3, 2011)

Anyone here ever tried burning a candle and setting it behind a fan to produce co2? well i did and it works much better than the yeast/sugar method because its constant and does not attract bugs.

here is some science on the matter

http://www.math.harvard.edu/~knill/pedagogy/waterexperiment/index.html


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## organicbynature (Dec 3, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Anyone here ever tried burning a candle and setting it behind a fan to produce co2? well i did and it works much better than the yeast/sugar method because its constant and does not attract bugs.
> 
> here is some science on the matter
> 
> http://www.math.harvard.edu/~knill/pedagogy/waterexperiment/index.html


Sounds like a good way to burn down your house. 

At least for me.


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## hyroot (Dec 3, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Sounds like a good way to burn down your house.
> 
> At least for me.


I know it can be dangerous. I took a small candle set it in a drinking glass then set that in a big glass bowl and set that on a stand then shook it tough to make sure nothing would fall off then lit the candle. I tried it twice. It worked great. I noticed a positive difference in just a couple hours. I plan on buying the rest of my co2 set up after next paycheck. Noy doing the candle thing. It was interesting to find out that you only need a flame and you dont have to burn a specific type of gas.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 3, 2011)

Hey you guys, check this bulb out. I'm pretty sure they only come as T8's in the USA, but they are really nice. I just bought a DIY T8 2 bulb fixture and 2 of these bulbs. For both the fixture and bulbs it was around $30. Puts out a really nice purple light. Right now I have it sitting over my cuttings. I have yet to try out the Fiji's but spectrum wise it seems like there is not much difference between the Sylvania Gro-Lux and the Fiji Purple.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 4, 2011)

Found this today:

"During photosynthesis, wavelengths in the blue (440 nm) and red (660 nm) spectrum are the most important. For plant growth and development, red (660 nm) and far-red (735 nm) rays promote stem growth and flowering, while blue rays (435 nm) encourage leaf formation and dark green foliage. Plants must have all these wavelengths in the right amounts to grow properly.

Blue rays (440 nm) are primarily responsible for a phenomenon called phototropism, which refers to the movement of part of a plant in response to light. Just think of how a sunflower follows the sun and how indoor plants "reach" for light when they don&#8217;t get enough."

(Today when I put my cuttings under the FloraSun's and the Coral Sun's the first leaflet of every fan leaf was sticking straight up in the air after about 2 hours. All the leaves were "V" shaped reaching for the light. Never seen anything like it! I just moved a few cuttings under the Sylvania Gro-Lux bulbs to see if they keep reaching for the light, if not, I will be adding a Coral Sun or equivalent bulb to the sides of the T8 fixture to see if they are the ones responsible for the reach.

I have some UVL, KZ, ATI, and WavePoint bulbs on order. I should have them by next week. I'm going to see how they compare to the ZooMed and Sylvania Gro-Lux bulbs because in the long run it would be nice to not spend $20 and $30 per 2 ft bulb in the future. I'm pretty sure the ZooMed bulbs are between $12 and $15 each. I've also found some really nice 4 ft, 10 bulb T5, DIY fixtures for $348 each that I will be looking in to. They come with a 95% reflector. They are nice because the whole underside with bulbs folds down like a doorway so you can access the ballast components. 

About the T8 Gro-Lux's, they have a bulb life of 30,000 hours! Thats pushing LED bulb life almost! If anyone knows where to get the Gro-Lux T5's in the USA, please do tell.

Another VERY IMPORTANT thing about the Gro-Lux bulbs is the MODEL #. There are a couple different versions of the Gro-Lux out there. One is called a "wide-spectrum" and is completely worthless. The one that isn't worthless is the "standard narrow spectrum." The model # of the ones I bought is: F017/GRO/AQ/ECO/2/24

The F017 stands for 17 watts. The GRO stands for gro-lux. The AQ stands for Aquarium. The ECO stands for Ecologic (not sure what that is.) LOL
IF THE MODEL NUMBER HAS THE LETTERS "WS" IN IT, THEN IT IS THE "WIDE SPECTRUM" BULB AND YOU DO NOT WANT THAT ONE.

Keep in mind these are T8 bulbs because I cannot find the T5 bulbs here in the USA. They are also NOT HIGH OUTPUT. I am using them for cuttings only to try and save a little space and energy. I will keep a cutting under these lights for a few weeks to grow it out and to see the quality and potential of them. I will also be starting some lettuce and chard under them to see if they have enough power. 

I am 100% sure the reason plants are reaching up to the actinic's (Coral Wave and Coral Sun) lamps is because they are actinic bulbs and have that 435nm peak in them. To me, leaves that are reaching like that mean one thing, "HAPPINESS!" Any plants that I have seen reaching for the light have always grown faster, healthier, and greener than ones that are not reaching out. I know that the subject about including the 420's has been somewhat debated and questioned in this thread. I'm still not quite sure how harmful the UV rays are in the actinic bulbs, but I really can't imagine that bulb companies would manufacture anything that would be detrimental to plants, fish, or humans, and sell it to the general public for plant/aquarium use. 

I would also like to say that I would guess the main reason that T5 HO fixtures come with 6500K and 3000K standard bulbs is because they "work" and are very inexpensive. It would be interesting to calculate exactly how much of the light is being wasted as "yellow, green, orange" (white) light in brands like Spectralux and Quantum in these standard daylight bulbs. Either way, I'm still having a hard time accepting the fact that "aquarium bulbs" work better only because they have never been marketed as "gardening bulbs" and yet have been around for such a long time. I just don't get it........anyone else?


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## falcon223 (Dec 4, 2011)

Well Okthanks, the prof is in this thread. The aquarium bulbs are letting us dial in the PAR. much like LEDs. I cant wait to get a good T5 set up to do this. I will be running a professor type of research. Just got to save a little more money.I am only interested in the flower stage of performance. I have bin vegging under T8s with good results. My 600 watt HPS is a electricity eating whore. I all so hope to save money with the T5s, on my light bill. If they [T5s] save on electricity, then they will pay for there self,if they flower like the other growers here are saying, and they have some amazing pics.
I really love this forum. So glad the professor started this thread. It seams to be just what I am looking for.
Wow am I ever rambling on, and I don't even get stoned, don't like it.


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## falcon223 (Dec 4, 2011)

Sorry Okthanks. I think I see what you are saying about why nobody using the aquarium bulbs before.
I don't get it ether, guess the aquarium people want to keep this to there selfs.And none of us where sober enough to look at them seriously.
Like I sead, I am so glad the Professor did the research. Now we know.


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## PetFlora (Dec 4, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> Found this today:
> 
> "During photosynthesis, wavelengths in the blue (440 nm) and red (660 nm) spectrum are the most important. For plant growth and development, red (660 nm) and far-red (735 nm) rays promote stem growth and flowering, while blue rays (435 nm) encourage leaf formation and dark green foliage. Plants must have all these wavelengths in the right amounts to grow properly.
> 
> ...


Keep in mind that mj is a unique type of horticulture. Just as most nutrients are not formulated specifically for mj, neither are horticulture bulbs.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 4, 2011)

Had 20 bulbs on order with Aquarium Speciality. A week and a half later they were kind enough to email and say they won't be in stock for awhile. Unreal.

Where else to try?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 4, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Had 20 bulbs on order with Aquarium Speciality. A week and a half later they were kind enough to email and say they won't be in stock for awhile. Unreal.
> 
> Where else to try?


Wow, unreal, seems like if you are going to have a successful internet business you would keep an updated inventory. Hmm, anyway, Aquacave, DT aquarium, Marinedepot(updated inventory), BulkReefSupply, PremiumAquatics, Foster and Smith, AquaticsElite. 

That should be enough to find a few instock for ya! Good luck, I've already had to cancel a few orders to find ones that are actually available as well.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 4, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> Wow, unreal, seems like if you are going to have a successful internet business you would keep an updated inventory. Hmm, anyway, Aquacave, DT aquarium, Marinedepot(updated inventory), BulkReefSupply, PremiumAquatics, Foster and Smith, AquaticsElite.
> 
> That should be enough to find a few instock for ya! Good luck, I've already had to cancel a few orders to find ones that are actually available as well.


THanks for the UPdate on suppliers im always bugged for lists....
Its good to see some new faces here. Im not gone and shouldent be forgotten...
I do however travel Extensively lately so i am peeking in every once in a while.. you know to make sure this thread stays confrontation free.
I DO not tollerate flaming or arguing here so if you feel the need to argue a point take it somewhere else....(not you okthanks2..)
its great to see that my efforts have not fallen on deaf ears. I am very fortunate to have such dedicated people taking over for me to help others (petflora, DWC, Altarnation, lucius, hyroot, organicbynature.) if i missed you please dont take it as an insult...
This forum is meant to share our experience with others please do this. DO NOT let all my hard work turn into a hangout for flaming and knuckleheads trying to prove whatever method they use is better... they all work... mine just works better 
Please feel free to msg me for immediate concerns. if i dont reply i probably am traveling. and will reply when i get time.
I applaud EVERYONE for embracing this concept and expect you to share with everyone your great results. not for fame but for the community... sure id like my name and face on a magazine, but only to help others grow medicine and become independently healthy. 
I am really not a fan of HID and never truly embraced the rhetoric or the hype... i am glad other have opened theyre eyes and wallets to embrace something that could have been pure junk science.. for those of you that have spent what im sure is hundreds of dollars i applaud your boldness, and hope that i have not lead you to a decision that you will regret. 

-Pr0f-


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## okthanks2 (Dec 5, 2011)

pr0fesseur: In your signature you have a Fiji Purple listed as 630 & 440nm wavelengths and the Pro Color for the 660nm. 

The Fiji Purple already has the 660nm as one of its main peaks. 

Not sure if you caught that, but it seems like since the Pro Color has been d/c'd you could get by without it altogether. If need be, the ZooMed Flora Sun has a similar range.

ALSO, for anyone that still has doubts about using T5 aquarium bulbs for growing: The GE 6500K and 3000K bulbs that grow stores sell for gardening are ALSO sold as aquarium bulbs. Here are the spectrum graphs for both of these T5 HO bulbs:
GE 6500k T5 HO





GE 3000k T5 HO






As you can see, the T5 bulbs that have been recommended in this thread have a much better spectrum that plants need for photosynthesis. I'm not sure how much more proof is needed. At the beginning of this thread I saw that a few people were saying aquarium bulbs don't work for growing, yet they recommended using them. LOL


----------



## okthanks2 (Dec 5, 2011)

I also would like to add that in this thread it was mentioned a few times that the Wavepoint Coral Wave bulb should NOT be used during veg because of the risk of triggering flowering due to the IR output. If your plants are flowering during the vegetative period, I would tend to think that you have an auto-flowering strain. I could be wrong, and the only way to find out is to experiment. There's my $0.02
Have a great day!


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## organicbynature (Dec 5, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> pr0fesseur: In your signature you have a Fiji Purple listed as 630 & 440nm wavelengths and the Pro Color for the 660nm.
> 
> The Fiji Purple already has the 660nm as one of its main peaks.


I'm going to jump in again and point out that there is no spectrum graph for the Fiji Purple. The graph that is floating around on the internet is for another bulb and has been mislabeled and spread around.

*There is no public information on the spectral output of the Fiji Purple*.


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## organicbynature (Dec 5, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I also would like to add that in this thread it was mentioned a few times that the Wavepoint Coral Wave bulb should NOT be used during veg because of the risk of triggering flowering due to the IR output. I have to disagree with this because the IR that these bulbs give off is EXTREMELY SMALL. The Coral Wave is an actinic bulb. If your plants are flowering during the vegetative period, I would tend to think that you have an auto-flowering strain. I could be wrong, and the only way to find out is to experiment, but it REALLY doesn't seem like these bulbs would trigger flowering since they are actinic. I would still recommend using the UVL Red Sun's for the main red spectrum in flowering and NOT the Coral Wave. There's my $0.02
> Have a great day!


It also seems unlikely to me that this would induce flowering, but it sounded like he (was it hyroot? I can't find it now) was speaking from experience. I'm not going to test it myself, because I have some Zoo Med Coral Suns (Super Actinics) that I got for $10 ea. I'd rather use those for veg than the Coral Waves.

I suspect any super actinic on the market would be a better veg bulb than the Coral Wave.

Will the Coral Waves put your veg plants into flower? Try it out and let us know your experience!


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## organicbynature (Dec 5, 2011)

kevinr said:


> Moving on, one question I had after reading all the pages of this thread is if your half way into flowering, and currently using HPS, would adding some lighting in the "cool" range help things? This isn't ideal but for someone who doesn't want to switch out lighting so late into flowering.


HPS bulbs don't have much in the blue spectrum, particularly at the lower wavelengths. Go ahead and add some!

I have a 4x4 tent going right now with a 400 watt HPS on top and two, 4-bulb, 4" T5 fixtures hanging on opposing sides (for another 400 watts total of T5 side-lighting). I'm only a couple weeks in, but it sure is bright in there!

To quote the Prof:


> Remember that actinic and uv help with resin production.


----------



## hyroot (Dec 5, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I also would like to add that in this thread it was mentioned a few times that the Wavepoint Coral Wave bulb should NOT be used during veg because of the risk of triggering flowering due to the IR output. If your plants are flowering during the vegetative period, I would tend to think that you have an auto-flowering strain. I could be wrong, and the only way to find out is to experiment. There's my $0.02
> Have a great day!



Definitely no autos here. ive had these strains for a long time. Google search infrared experiments with plants at texas a&m. Infrared def drives flowering. Thats why they start flowering in the first few days instead of the 2nd week. During flower period.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 5, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Definitely no autos here. ive had these strains for a long time. Google search infrared experiments with plants at texas a&m. Infrared def drives flowering. Thats why they start flowering in the first few days instead of the 2nd week. During flower period.


I see that now. Thank you for clearing that up. 

I am wondering if the Actinic bulbs help with vegging or are they just for the last 2 weeks of flower to help resin production. I had a couple actinics in my fixture, but I just took them out because I was concerned about the UVA AND UVB damaging the leaves or something, anyone have any input? Experience?


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## organicbynature (Dec 5, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I see that now. Thank you for clearing that up.
> 
> I am wondering if the Actinic bulbs help with vegging or are they just for the last 2 weeks of flower to help resin production. I had a couple actinics in my fixture, but I just took them out because I was concerned about the UVA AND UVB damaging the leaves or something, anyone have any input? Experience?


The actinics are focused around 420 nm, which is very important for photosynthesis, particularly during veg.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 7, 2011)

Contacted KZ to try to get the Fiji Purple spectrum today. They responded saying their bulbs are the best for coral and do not share the spectrum outside the company. LOL I don't understand why someone would keep that a secret, sure seems weird. Anyway, couldn't even get one of the peak nm out of them. Is there a way to break the peaks down with some sort of light meter?


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Dec 7, 2011)

same response I gopt a few days ago... Seems like they would be getting so many requests they would share this info.?


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## Calrt (Dec 7, 2011)

Dont Fear The Reefer said:


> same response I gopt a few days ago... Seems like they would be getting so many requests they would share this info.?


Maybe they don't know?


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 7, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> Contacted KZ to try to get the Fiji Purple spectrum today. They responded saying their bulbs are the best for coral and do not share the spectrum outside the company. LOL I don't understand why someone would keep that a secret, sure seems weird. Anyway, couldn't even get one of the peak nm out of them. Is there a way to break the peaks down with some sort of light meter?


Originally posted this information on Page 64 of this Thread. Re-posted it again on Page 124 of this Thread. Here you go again:

http://www.shop.spectrecology.com/Rental-VIS-spectroradiometer-with-cosine-corrector-R2.htm <-- This company that will ship you a pre-configured spectroradiometer for your use for a week for $250.00. Nice!

http://www.apogeeinstruments.com/quantum/index1.html <-- This company that sells reasonably priced meters and sensors!

I talked with both companies, they are legit and ready to help you.



Calrt said:


> Maybe they don't know?


They know. Here is a direct quote from Thomas Pohl @ Korallen Zucht that was posted along with some other responses from KZ on Page 55 of this Thread:

*We dont have that, sorry. I have only exact parameters in nm but that i can not give for advertising.

Mit freundlichen Grussen / Best regards

Thomas Pohl*


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## falcon223 (Dec 7, 2011)

I got an old light meter. It was my uncle's, he was a photographer in WW2. I wander if I can measure PAR. with it. I don't think I can tell the Peck colors, but it will show how much light is putting out. I imagine a light spectrograph would be vary expensive. I will have to goggle it.


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## Calrt (Dec 7, 2011)

Here is a conversation with Sun Pulse about their MH bulbs that a buddy was raving about, I decided to ask a few questions as I am still trying to learn about different peoples ideal spectrums. This is what I got:


Great info and they look like great bulbs! Do you have
the spectrum graphs for each bulb so I can make a choice on which ones
to buy based on this rather than the temp?

Thanks in advance,




Hello,

There is a spectral graph comparison in the Tech Info section in the
SunPulse vs. HPS white paper there.

Basically, the graphs you are used to seeing are done in laboratories by
the lamp companies with very specialized equipment. Growers don't have
any of the same equipment. The spectral graph you get is created by your
lamp, your ballast and your fixture. Change any one thing, and you
change it all. Dim an electronic ballast and the spectrum changes again.

Plants just want the Sun and our lamps are made for living things. The
color temperature is just a marketing tool to help growers know which
lamp to buy. If you just want one all around light for all phases of
growth, I'd get the 4k. Having a compatible ballast for our lamps is
important too.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Regards,
Dan
SunPulse Lamps



On 12/1/2011 11:29 PM,
Each of your bulbs with different temperature have a different
spectrum, correct? I know the NM graphs are not entirely accurate due
to the reasons you state but feel it is a good start or ballpark. I run
other lights and want to combine your bulbs and don't want too much
overlap for different stages of growth.

Thanks,




Subject: Contact Form.
Date: Sun, Dec 4, 2011 10:17 am

Hello,

Since the NM graphs aren't an accurate way to measure light for the
growers, I just won't provide them. BS is BS, and NM graphs are BS.

If you "mix" our lamps with other lamps in your garden, expect "mixed"
results. Uniformity of light gives you better uniformity in the garden.
I expect you'll have plants at very different heights, with very
different results from zone to zone.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Regards,
Dan
SunPulse Lamps



On 12/4/2011 4:13 PM,

Ok, what would be an accurate way to measure the light coming off of a 
bulb? I am trying to educate myself about lights and the answer that 
it is BS does not help me much...



Date: Thu, Dec 1, 2011 9:27 pm 

The light coming off the lamp, intensity that reaches the leaf is one 
element. The color of the light, or spectrum, is another.

Footcandles are a good way to measure light intensity. At around 5500FC, 
in nature, photosynthesis stops. Watts per meter squared is also a good 
reference for measuring incident energy at the leaf. Footcandles are a 
little more practical for hobbyists.

We are the only lamp company that makes lighting for living things. All 
other lamp companies make light for the human eye. We're plant people 
who make lighting for plants.

Our recommendations for which color lamp to buy are on the side of every 
lamp box.

Let me know if you have any other questions.

Regards,
Dan
SunPulse Lamps> >


----------



## organicbynature (Dec 7, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Originally posted this information on Page 64 of this Thread. Re-posted it again on Page 124 of this Thread. Here you go again:
> 
> http://www.shop.spectrecology.com/Rental-VIS-spectroradiometer-with-cosine-corrector-R2.htm <-- This company that will ship you a pre-configured spectroradiometer for your use for a week for $250.00. Nice!
> 
> ...


Thanks for posting this again, I think it's good to keep this information fresh in the thread for new people.

This is why I find it confusing that they don't share spectrum information outside the company. If a competing company wanted to find out the spectrum of the Fiji Purple, they would just test it the same way they create graphs for all of their bulbs. The only ones who can't easily test the bulbs are we, the consumers. So why don't they want us to know they spectrum output of the bulbs?


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 7, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> So why don't they want us to know they spectrum output of the bulbs?


Yeah well this is what Thomas Pohl @ KZ had to say:

_All spectrum graphs that you told me are selfmade by the combanys. 
That its not interestet for somebody. A real Spectrum Information is a 
list with quantytis of every nm and with that list you can make the 
same tube by another producer without any problems.
So go to pepsi and ask about the real intgrediants, when you have that 
let me know 

I wish you a good time.



Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards

Thomas Pohl_


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 7, 2011)

Of course I had to respond:

_LOL Tom you really are something else 

All I am looking for is the range of light that is provided by your lamp. No secret formulas. No conspiracies. Nothing about HOW you provide the range. No long list of every nm produced so I can make the same tube...lol That is preposterous.

My application is agricultural, and requires blue light in the 420-460 nm range, and red light in the 630-660 nm range (i.e. growing tomatoes). I am simply trying to confirm/deny how effective your light would be for this application... Whether you like it or not, there is a spectrum graph that can be found all over the Internet that is commonly accepted by people all over the Internet as the Korallen Zucht Fuji Purple spectrum:

(http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/t5spectrums.html)

But even the author of the article himself has no idea where the graph came from  So it doesn't do me a whole lot of good!

I figured why not just ask the company that makes the bulb! Little did I know I would get this kind of response  Every other company out there publishes this information. You say this information is not of interest for somebody... quite frankly you are wrong.

Can you at least let me know if that spectrum is accurate or not? There is no way someone could look at that spectrum and go and manufacture a bulb that can exactly reproduce it... let's get real. The graph is attached, if you can just please tell me if it is accurate or not, I will be able to make a purchasing decision.
_
ALAS, I never got any further responses... GG


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## Redoctober (Dec 7, 2011)

What a bunch of jerkoffs! I can't believe that they wouldn't just give you a simple yes or no. Your email to them was perfect: well thought out, reasonably stated, and direct. I am wondering if threatening them by telling them that since they refuse to provide the information, you, as the owner and proprietor of a large (unnamed) aquarium website, will be forced to pull their bulbs and alert all of your associates to do the same, as you are very influential in the aquarium reef community. It probably will have no effect but it might be a last ditch effort. 

You made a very good point too when you said that just because the spectrum is published, it doesn't mean that another company can go right out and duplicate it. After all, just because you might have a list of ingredients for sea urchin ceviche, doesn't mean that you are going to be able to make it taste as if it were prepared by Iron Chef Morimoto.

I wish we were able to find out which bulb that graph is actually for. Does anyone have any possible leads on that? Do we have the boys down at the crime lab working in shifts?


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## AltarNation (Dec 7, 2011)

Seriously... the responses from Sun Pulse and KZ are pretty disrespectful. Haha. I might not buy either of their lights from now on. I can't stand it when reps act like the customer doesn't matter... who do they think buys their products? LoL.


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## AltarNation (Dec 7, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> I wish we were able to find out which bulb that graph is actually for. Does anyone have any possible leads on that? Do we have the boys down at the crime lab working in shifts?


Actually, yeah, it's been posted a couple times. Organicbynature (or maybe it was psytranceorgy, i forget) is probably shitting himself that he has to keep posting the same info over and over again, lol. It's back some pages. I don't know exactly where. but yeah, there is another bulb that is not available for sale that sports the EXACT same graph.

P.S. Was that an impromptu Lebowski reference? :0)


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## hyroot (Dec 7, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Yeah well this is what Thomas Pohl @ KZ had to say:
> 
> _All spectrum graphs that you told me are selfmade by the combanys.
> That its not interestet for somebody. A real Spectrum Information is a
> ...


There were 2 different specials on msnbc or cnbc , one with coke and the other was pepsi. On both they said their recipes and how they have changed them over the years.


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## hyroot (Dec 7, 2011)

Send this to KZ


2.3. The Supposed Pepsi-Cola Recipe

This is supposedly the original Pepsi-Cola recipe. It was submitted to a court in the USA when Pepsi-Cola filed for bankruptcy in 1923.

Ingredients:

7500 lbs. Sugar - standard confectioners 12 gal. Caramel - burnt sugar colour Up to 1200 gallons Water 12 gal. Lime Juice 58 lbs. Phosphoric Acid - S.G. 1.750

Flavourings:

½ gal. Alcohol 4 fl oz Cinnamon Oil 6 fl oz. Lemon Oil 2 fl oz Nutmeg Oil 5 fl oz Orange Oil 2 fl oz Coriander Oil 1 fl oz Petit Grain *

*Note: Petit Grain is an essential oil extracted from the leaves and twigs of the lemon tree.

Pepsi-cola originally contained pepsin, an enzyme that aids digestion. Like coca-cola, pepsi-cola was first sold at soda fountains and it now probably contains gum Arabic as an emulsifier.

Source: www.sodamuseum.com


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## Redoctober (Dec 7, 2011)

> Actually, yeah, it's been posted a couple times. Organicbynature (or maybe it was psytranceorgy, i forget) is probably shitting himself that he has to keep posting the same info over and over again, lol. It's back some pages. I don't know exactly where. but yeah, there is another bulb that is not available for sale that sports the EXACT same graph.


 Shit, I have to go back and check that out. I hate when people do that. Therefore by transitive property, I must hate myself...but that's hardly a revelation! That totally sucks that it's not for sale. I think someone must have put that graph on the internet just to tease everyone.



> P.S. Was that an impromptu Lebowski reference? :0)


 It absolutely WAS! Well spotted!

Too bad about the bulb...it really tied the room together  



> hyroot Send this to KZ 2.3. The Supposed Pepsi-Cola Recipe This is supposedly the original Pepsi-Cola recipe. It was submitted to a court in the USA when Pepsi-Cola filed for bankruptcy in 1923. Ingredients: 7500 lbs. Sugar - standard confectioners 12 gal. Caramel - burnt sugar colour Up to 1200 gallons Water 12 gal. Lime Juice 58 lbs. Phosphoric Acid - S.G. 1.750 Flavourings: ½ gal. Alcohol 4 fl oz Cinnamon Oil 6 fl oz. Lemon Oil 2 fl oz Nutmeg Oil 5 fl oz Orange Oil 2 fl oz Coriander Oil 1 fl oz Petit Grain * *Note: Petit Grain is an essential oil extracted from the leaves and twigs of the lemon tree. Pepsi-cola originally contained pepsin, an enzyme that aids digestion. Like coca-cola, pepsi-cola was first sold at soda fountains and it now probably contains gum Arabic as an emulsifier. Source: www.sodamuseum.com


HAHA!!! 

Apparently both KZ and ATI are owned by the German lighting company Sylvania; maybe we should go over KZ's helmet (yes that's from spaceballs) and email Sylvania. Maybe they'll be less dickish about it...but most likely not. 

http://reefbuilders.com/2011/01/27/sylvania-t5-kz-fiji-ati-purple/


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## organicbynature (Dec 7, 2011)

Only the best RIU threads result in someone emailing the Pepsi recipe to a lighting company.


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## AltarNation (Dec 7, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> It absolutely WAS! Well spotted!
> 
> Too bad about the bulb...it really tied the room together


ROFL...  ...and this dude PEED on it!


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## AltarNation (Dec 7, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Only the best RIU threads result in someone emailing the Pepsi recipe to a lighting company.



Hahahahaha

This thread is comedy gold at this point, thanks guys.


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## hyroot (Dec 8, 2011)

Here is another site that uses the same chart for KZ fiji purple. i found through Redoctober's link. they got it from *Practical Coral Farming* too. They say that ther'e not sure of its validity either.

http://reefgizmo.com/2011/01/kz-fiji-purple-vs-ati-purple-plus/?utm_campaign=1128&utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitter


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## okthanks2 (Dec 8, 2011)

Well, I just got some Fiji Purple tubes in yesterday and tried them out. They are by no means very purple at all! They are mostly BLUE. I would compare them to an Actinic/Blue mixture. If there is any red in them at all I would be surprised. And if there is, then 660nm must be out of the visual spectrum BECAUSE I DON'T SEE THAT MUCH RED AT ALL. 

Anyway, I just got some UVL Red Suns today and WOW, that is one AMAZING bulb. I know it puts out the 633nm wavelength, which is pretty important for photosynthesis as far as I have heard. I took these bulbs and mixed them with the UVL Super Actinics and together they looked REALLY NICE AND PURPLE. So with only the UVL super actinic and UVL Red Sun, you get some far out amazing purple. So it is lacking in that 660nm range. So what is next. I really can't say I like the Fiji Purple. So far, nothing is growing because I found out my soil Ph'd at 7.5! WTF I've been using Fox Farm soil now for 3 years with no problems and now they are sending out batches of soil with f'd up ph. I switched to Dr. Earth today, ph'd the soil at a nice 6.8. Perfect. Hopefully now we'll see some growth and be able to tests these bulb combinations. I sure am curious what a Super Actinic and Red Sun ONLY combo would do.
Peace


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## PetFlora (Dec 8, 2011)

LMAOROF! Many Germans can be likened to AI. They are programmed to not think outside the box. If he gets high, it's probably from an inorganic pill (again AI)




Psytranceorgy said:


> Of course I had to respond:
> 
> _LOL Tom you really are something else
> 
> ...


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 8, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> I wish we were able to find out which bulb that graph is actually for. Does anyone have any possible leads on that? Do we have the boys down at the crime lab working in shifts?


pr0f mentions the company on PAGE 57. I caught the reference and expanded upon the meaning on PAGE 62.

The company is *nlite* and it appears they are defunct. They made a bulb called PURple and published that graph as the spectrum. The spectrum graphs for their other bulbs were also published, and all the graphs share the same format/style.

I would personally use the ZooMed Flora Sun or Coralife Colormax as a "purple" base bulb that provides red spectrum coverage further out than the UVL Red Sun @ 633 nm. There are a couple of others that I would use before buying a Fiji Purple as well... The AquaticLife Roseate's are advertised having their peak at 650 nm, for example, and the Aqua Medic Plant Grow also looks like a great candidate... I posted about some other 'puple' or 'plant growth' type bulbs on Page 63. I am sure there are more...

*AquaticLife Roseate http://aquaticlife.com/
Aqua Medic Plant Grow http://www.aqua-medic.com/
ATI Purple Plus http://www.atiaquaristik.com/en/
Coralife Colormax http://coralifeproducts.com/
Current/TrueLumen Freshwater Flora http://www.current-usa.com/
Giesemann Aquaflora http://www.giesemann.de/
JBL Solar Ultra Color http://www.jbl.de/en/
Wave Point Color Wave(same as Red Wave) http://www.wave-point.com/
ZooMed Flora Sun http://www.zoomed.com/

*The above all have a similar spectrum (yes, some look better than others...for sure). God (and Thomas Pohl) only knows if they are similar to the KZ Fiji Purple's spectrum... but I suspect that they are... 

Of course you still want to pick up your UVL Red Suns and use them! They are unique in their spectrum, and you definitely want some of it!


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 8, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> I am wondering if threatening them by telling them that since they refuse to provide the information, you, as the owner and proprietor of a large (unnamed) aquarium website, will be forced to pull their bulbs and alert all of your associates to do the same, as you are very influential in the aquarium reef community. It probably will have no effect but it might be a last ditch effort.



LOL well, I already told him (the truth) that I am a humble tomato farmer... hehehe Someone else will have to play the influential aquarium reef community card...


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## PetFlora (Dec 8, 2011)

Add one Coral Wave per 8 bulbs, and I think you've approximated the infamous Fiji graph. Anyway, that's what I was shooting for



okthanks2 said:


> Well, I just got some Fiji Purple tubes in yesterday and tried them out. They are by no means very purple at all! They are mostly BLUE. I would compare them to an Actinic/Blue mixture. If there is any red in them at all I would be surprised. And if there is, then 660nm must be out of the visual spectrum BECAUSE I DON'T SEE THAT MUCH RED AT ALL.
> 
> Anyway, I just got some UVL Red Suns today and WOW, that is one AMAZING bulb. I know it puts out the 633nm wavelength, which is pretty important for photosynthesis as far as I have heard. I took these bulbs and mixed them with the UVL Super Actinics and together they looked REALLY NICE AND PURPLE. So with only the UVL super actinic and UVL Red Sun, you get some far out amazing purple. So it is lacking in that 660nm range. So what is next. I really can't say I like the Fiji Purple. So far, nothing is growing because I found out my soil Ph'd at 7.5! WTF I've been using Fox Farm soil now for 3 years with no problems and now they are sending out batches of soil with f'd up ph. I switched to Dr. Earth today, ph'd the soil at a nice 6.8. Perfect. Hopefully now we'll see some growth and be able to tests these bulb combinations. I sure am curious what a Super Actinic and Red Sun ONLY combo would do.
> Peace


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## PetFlora (Dec 8, 2011)

I just chopped BK 1 yesterday as she never recovered from whatever I did. And I am thinking about that. The primary and secondary leaves all turned light brown. I thought this was from internal nute burn, but now wondering whether it was from having 2/8 Coral Waves, which could have burned them up. I pulled the second one, but only during the last week. By then, the damage (however it was caused) was done. It could be all the above contributed- high pH + >1900 ppms due to high water consumption + 2/8 Coral Waves. But of too much UV & IR is bad for us, they could also be bad for our plants. NO?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 8, 2011)

Man it would be great if more people were actually posting videos of successful grows with T5's and pics.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 8, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I just chopped BK 1 yesterday as she never recovered from whatever I did. And I am thinking about that. The primary and secondary leaves all turned light brown. I thought this was from internal nute burn, but now wondering whether it was from having 2/8 Coral Waves, which could have burned them up. I pulled the second one, but only during the last week. By then, the damage (however it was caused) was done. It could be all the above contributed- high pH + >1900 ppms due to high water consumption + 2/8 Coral Waves. But of too much UV & IR is bad for us, they could also be bad for our plants. NO?


 I HIGHLY doubt any aquarium bulb on the market has the capability to damage a plant unless it is actually touching the leaves. 1900 PPM?????? that is REALLY high. I only use 950 ppm at the most for hydro. I know it's a bit different but still seems high. Anyway, back to the drawing board!


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## cifer (Dec 8, 2011)

If i have time i will ask him about the fiji purp, i can talk on german with him ...mayby this is a plus tomas tell me all his secrets


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## Redoctober (Dec 8, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> pr0f mentions the company on PAGE 57. I caught the reference and expanded upon the meaning on PAGE 62.
> 
> The company is *nlite* and it appears they are defunct. They made a bulb called PURple and published that graph as the spectrum. The spectrum graphs for their other bulbs were also published, and all the graphs share the same format/style.
> 
> ...


 This is great! Thanks Psy! I was actually rereading the entire thread the other day and demarcating the pages where people talked about their bulb configurations and was probably so preoccupied with that aspect that I completely glossed over the section you are talking about haha. 

I too was looking at the AquaMedic Plant Grow which does seem to have a 650-660nm spike as well as 430ish, 550, and wasted 600 peaks. It looks fairly good as far as compromising for the Fiji. One down side is that they are roughly the same price as the Fiji, but at least we have a valid spectrum to run with. I read a few different reviews so I thought I'd post em and see what you guys think: 

AquaMedic Plant Grow Reviews: 


Source: http://www.aquacave.com/plant-grow-t5-lamps-brby-aquamedic-982.html 

The bulbs are much better than the stock bulbs. I was recommended to these bulbs due to a black algae problem in my tank. Following installation, my plants are growing well and the black algae does not seem to be advancing. These bulbs work as advertised. 

Next Review:
I am using two of these lamps in a four-lamp T5 fixture over an 80g high tech freshwater planted tank. I recently replaced two of four "no-name" 6500K lamps with these Aqua Medic Lamps, and the results are astounding. The plants are all pearling at a phenomenal rate. These lamps are now a &quot;must&quot; for my tank. The next experiment for me will be to replace the remaining two &quot;no-name&quot; broad spectrum lamps with two fresh broad spectrum lamps (Giesemann PowerChrome midday 6000K lamps?). 

Source:http://www.aquascape-boutique.fr/AQUAMEDIC-PLANT-GROW-24W

Plant Grow is a growth lamp for plants in fresh water aquariums. The lamp accentuates the red and blue parts of the spectrum and comes close to the absorption spectrum of water plants. These wave lengths stimulate photosynthesis and so create excellent condition for luxuriant plant growth. In addition the colours become more vibrant in any fish with red pigmentation 



Here is a rather scathing review that gave me pause about buying this bulb but please take this with a major grain of salt because first and foremost, it is from 2006. So is a review from 5 years ago really applicable today? Probably not. Also it is the only negative review I have found. I would hope that all of these issues have been corrected at this point in time or else I'd be reading plentiful negative reviews all over vendors websites which I am not. On the contrary, contemporary buyers seem quite pleased with their performance, but I figured I'd post it anyway for posterity sake: 

taken from: http://www.aquaticplantcentral.com/reviews/showproduct.php/product/122/sort/1/cat/52/page/ 

There is a long version and a short version of this review, long version being my experience with the bulbs and short version being the bottom line. 

---------------------------------------------------- 

Short version: AquaMedic planta bulbs are truly an unacceptable choice for any planted tank for the following reasons: 

-Their intensity is less than or equal to standard T8-T12 bulbs. The intensity drops at an astounding rate as the bulb gets older. 

-Due to very weak intensity, plants do not pearl. 

-Also due to weak intensity, plants grow slowly, stunt, or end up dying. 

-The spectrum will make your plants look washed out; red plants will become brown 

-The color these bulbs produce is a very dull pink, not aesthetically pleasing at all. 

-They burn out within 6 months, 8 months tops. 

-They are a potential fire hazzard. When they burn out, the glass on the ends cracks and/or melts. 

Bottom line: Do not buy Planta bulbs. They're a waste of money and your plants will do horrible. As a much better alternative, look into GE StarCoat 6500k bulbs. 

---------------------------------------------------- 

Long version: This is my experience with AquaMedic's bulbs. Others on the forums have confirmed having the same problems. 

My fixture is 6 feet long and holds 8x39w HO T5 bulbs. When I first installed the fixuture, lighting was staggered 4x10,000k AquaMedic and 4xPlanta AquaMedic bulbs. Within 5-6 months, 6 of 8 bulbs had burnt out. And by burnt out, I don't mean they just stopped working. Apparently they became so hot that the glass near the ends of the bulbs had melted. After conversing with other members, this seems to be common with AquaMedic bulbs. I can't help but think AquaMedic's bulbs may pose some sort of fire hazzard. After all, glass has to get very hot to melt. 

Plants seem to do decent with the 10,000k/Planta combo. I assume this was only because of the 10,000k bulbs. 

I had cheap and easy access to more AquaMedic Planta bulbs, so I replaced all bulbs with AquaMedic Planta bulbs. 

Within 3 months of putting all Planta bulbs in my fixture, the limited intensity they started with had dropped to the point that plants were starting to stretch for light(long internode spaces, etc.). 

Within 5 months, 4 of the 8 brand new bulbs had burnt out, again with glass cracking and/or melting. My plants had absolutely no red at all, just dull brown. Many plants had stunted or died. There was absolutely no pearling in the tank with CO2 levels at 30ppm+. 

I replaced the burnt out bulbs this time with GE 6500k bulbs, and moved the 4 remaining bulbs to one side of the tank. When I first turned on the fixture, I was instantly blinded by looking at the GE bulbs. They were at *least* 5-6 times brighter than the Planta bulbs. Within 2 minutes of the fixture being turned on, all plants on the GE side of the tank were pearling like mad. The Planta side of the tank looked dark and dull... Plants looked pale and dying. Within a few days of the GE6500k bulbs being on the tank, the bright reds I've always wanted had shown up and the plants have grown about 4-5 times faster than they did with the Planta bulbs. 

Planta bulbs are by far the absolute worst bulbs I have ever owned.


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## Redoctober (Dec 8, 2011)

All that being said, I think I will try a few AquaMedic Plant Grows and see. They seem like the best choice for capturing that 660nm peak. I know I posted it, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that bad review. 

Also I need my fixture before I can do anything. I think I've settled on the New Wave 8 lamp HO T5. It's ballasts are advertised to put out zero heat and zero noise, which I'm not sure I believe, but since no one else's fixture makes that claim, I thought it was worth a shot. 

Psy, I couldn't find any actual spectral graphs for the Zoo Med bulbs, do you know where those might be found?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 8, 2011)

The Plant Grow was the first bulb I was thinking of getting before seeing the "color spectrum" that was posted as the Fiji Purple. I switched because I thought it was the real spectrum chart. Now that I have had a chance to see it first hand, I realize that it is way on the blue side of the spectrum. As I researched bulbs further, I noticed that the best bulb I could find in that 660nm region was the ATI ProColor which has been discontinued as was stated earlier in this thread. Supposedly it was discontinued because it is a bit on the red side, which is what all of us seem to be searching for. There are a few stores that still have these bulbs in stock in the 2 ft, 24watt size. Not sure how many however. The Aqua Medic Plant Grow have a fairly similar spectrum. The only way to say for sure would be to compare the light side by side. They both look fairly PINK from what I've seen in photos online. There is also the Sylvania Gro-Lux bulb which DOES exist in a T5 HO, but unfortunately only in Europe. Here are the spectral analysis of all of them:
Aqua Medic Plant grow





Ati ProColor





Sylvania Gro-Lux, Narrow spectrum top, Wide spectrum bottom.





Strangely enough, the Gro-Lux narrow spectrum looks exactly like that mystery KZ Fiji spectrum that is floating around the internet.......must be the Gro-Lux spectrum.


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## organicbynature (Dec 8, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> All that being said, I think I will try a few AquaMedic Plant Grows and see. They seem like the best choice for capturing that 660nm peak. I know I posted it, but I wouldn't put too much stock in that bad review.
> 
> Also I need my fixture before I can do anything. I think I've settled on the New Wave 8 lamp HO T5. It's ballasts are advertised to put out zero heat and zero noise, which I'm not sure I believe, but since no one else's fixture makes that claim, I thought it was worth a shot.
> 
> Psy, I couldn't find any actual spectral graphs for the Zoo Med bulbs, do you know where those might be found?


I posted the Zoo Med graphs back on page 111 (link). They had no problem providing them for me via email.

Gosh - it's like people don't memorize all 149 pages of this thread or something! We could probably use an FAQ/Index.

I'm currently running Flora Suns along with Coral Waves for side lighting. I'm also going to add Red Suns in the future.

The Flora Sun has as good a "base bulb" graph as I've seen (from what's available), though I'm also somewhat interested in the Roseate. I think it's supposed to have like 20% yellow/green light - meh, could be worse.

I'd love to hear what you think of your new fixture and what kind of heat it puts off. When will you get it?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 8, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I posted the Zoo Med graphs back on page 111 (link). They had no problem providing them for me via email.
> 
> Gosh - it's like people don't memorize all 149 pages of this thread or something! We could probably use an FAQ/Index.
> 
> ...


I am running a couple Flora Suns, but they put out a lot of unusable light. The whole point of this thread was to try and find bulbs that only put out the usable wavelengths (or closest to that). The Flora Sun puts out a warm white color. I just purchased a few different ones to compare. ATI ProColor, Aqua Medic, Plant Grow, and Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 HO (from Germany). Needless to say, I am sure I will have quite a few bulbs left over after finding the ones that my plants like the best. LOL


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## hyroot (Dec 8, 2011)

I have been using 3 kz fiji purps along with 3 uvl redsun and 2 coral wave. I like the results from that combo. I will continue to use it and when I get another t5 I will most likely buy that same combo of bulbs again. I probably wont use them for veg though. For that I would just use a combo ov uvl redsuns and uvl super actinics. Not sure ho many of which yet til I completely change out all the 6500 bulbs.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 8, 2011)

My plants have really responded well to the new Red Suns. I am now beginning to think that the Red side of the spectrum is pretty damn important throughout the entire plant's life. The problem with florescent lighting IS getting the right phosphors for Red. The technology of florescent lighting is based around the Blue end of the spectrum. That is why there are few options for the Red side. I will be able to do a full comparison between the bulbs I have mentioned in the previous post within the next couple of weeks and hopefully be able to narrow the list down to just a few bulbs rather than a few hundred. :/


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## organicbynature (Dec 8, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I am running a couple Flora Suns, but they put out a lot of unusable light. The whole point of this thread was to try and find bulbs that only put out the usable wavelengths (or closest to that). The Flora Sun puts out a warm white color. I just purchased a few different ones to compare. ATI ProColor, Aqua Medic, Plant Grow, and Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 HO (from Germany). Needless to say, I am sure I will have quite a few bulbs left over after finding the ones that my plants like the best. LOL


Can we get a shot of those different lights running together to compare color?

I like the Flora Sun chart, but the light is whiter than I expected, as well.

Here's the chart again with an overlay showing the PAR curve:


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## okthanks2 (Dec 8, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> Can we get a shot of those different lights running together to compare color?
> 
> I like the Flora Sun chart, but the light is whiter than I expected, as well.
> 
> ...


I will most definitely post a photo of the bulbs running side by side when I receive them. I just placed the order today, so it will be however long it takes to receive the T5's from Germany. Until then, keep running the Red Suns and Super Actinics for sure. It seems like there has to be something missing from only running those 2 bulbs for veg, but the light quality of the purple hued mixture that is emitted appears really bright and clear. Seems to be of a much richer and higher quality light than LED. IMO


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## organicbynature (Dec 9, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I will most definitely post a photo of the bulbs running side by side when I receive them. I just placed the order today, so it will be however long it takes to receive the T5's from Germany. Until then, keep running the Red Suns and Super Actinics for sure. It seems like there has to be something missing from only running those 2 bulbs for veg, but the light quality of the purple hued mixture that is emitted appears really bright and clear. Seems to be of a much richer and higher quality light than LED. IMO


You might want to throw one or two regular, white T5s in there while you're waiting on your other bulbs. You're working with some pretty narrow-spectrum bulbs in super actinics and Red Suns.

Looking forward to that comparative pic!


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok I take back what I said obout the fiji's. I just took half of what I chopped down and put into jars. I got much less than I expected. I was expecting an hp and got 5 oz. Granted they had a few deficiency's when they went into flower and bug issues this round and some of them were smaller than before. The quality is unreal. I started looking at th bulbs and the fiji purps do look more blue than the coral waves. So it seems there is more blue than red. So I am thinking of swapping out 2 fiji purps with redsuns then possibly throw the fiji purps into veg. I know thats the opposite of what I said. But after seeing my yield, the drunk goggles came off. on the other hand there were many other factors that I never had to deal with before. So I cant really judge this batch. This might just be some bitter ramblings though.


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## Redoctober (Dec 9, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I posted the Zoo Med graphs back on page 111 (link). They had no problem providing them for me via email.
> 
> Gosh - it's like people don't memorize all 149 pages of this thread or something! We could probably use an FAQ/Index.
> 
> ...


 Thanks organic! I definitely didn't memorize all 149 pages, but it appears you did Rainman  

I like the Flora Sun graph, especially the far red 760 peak for flowering, but there does appear to be a decent amount of wasted peaks there. That's a very strong 545 peak as well as a 610 which probably accounts for 30-40% of the bulb's output. I know we do need some green in there but this may be overkill. Thanks for obtaining all those graphs from Zoo Med! 

okthanks, I'm very interested in that Gro-Lux bulb. I assume you are in the US? How was the shipping charge on those boys? The Gro-Lux and the AquaMedic Plant Grow could be the new base bulbs. It is indeed hard to find red T5's and unfortunately most of the aquarium applications are based on the visual appeal of how they make the tank and the fish look rather than attacking it from a plant growing mindset. Most fish tank people are growing coral, and perhaps coral needs less red wavelengths than land based plants. After all, blue light is absorbed least by ocean water, so this is what coral receive the most of, and have probably evolved to make more efficient use of blue light and have less of a need for the red wavelengths. Thus aquarium bulbs would be geared more toward the actinic side of the spectrum. Just a theory.


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## Redoctober (Dec 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Ok I take back what I said obout the fiji's. I just took half of what I chopped down and put into jars. I got much less than I expected. I was expecting an hp and got 5 oz. Granted they had a few deficiency's when they went into flower and bug issues this round and some of them were smaller than before. The quality is unreal. I started looking at th bulbs and the fiji purps do look more blue than the coral waves. So it seems there is more blue than red. So I am thinking of swapping out 2 fiji purps with redsuns then possibly throw the fiji purps into veg. I know thats the opposite of what I said. But after seeing my yield, the drunk goggles came off. on the other hand there were many other factors that I never had to deal with before. So I cant really judge this batch. This might just be some bitter ramblings though.


 NOooooooooooo! Sorry man. I know you had high hopes, but it WAS a first experiment, so you can't be too concerned with yield until we all get this dialed in. Also we don't even know what the Fiji spectrum is so it could have been a waste of 108W (assuming you had 2 of them in there) of light which is fairly significant. Also you were only using 432W as compared to a 600W or 1000W HPS that you would normally have. I'm sure watt for watt, T5 matches or exceeds HPS, and if it didn't I'd like a scientific explanation for why not. 

Perhaps we may need to load even heavier on the red side during flower than we had originally thought. Instead of 60/40 maybe 70/30? What do you guys think? 

Got any pics even though it didn't quite meet your expectations? Also how would you describe the buds? Were they light and airy? Or hard and dense?


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> NOooooooooooo! Sorry man. I know you had high hopes, but it WAS a first experiment, so you can't be too concerned with yield until we all get this dialed in. Also we don't even know what the Fiji spectrum is so it could have been a waste of 108W (assuming you had 2 of them in there) of light which is fairly significant. Also you were only using 432W as compared to a 600W or 1000W HPS that you would normally have. I'm sure watt for watt, T5 matches or exceeds HPS, and if it didn't I'd like a scientific explanation for why not.
> 
> Perhaps we may need to load even heavier on the red side during flower than we had originally thought. Instead of 60/40 maybe 70/30? What do you guys think?
> 
> Got any pics even though it didn't quite meet your expectations? Also how would you describe the buds? Were they light and airy? Or hard and dense?





The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.

4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......

I'm going back to my former techniques. so we will see in 6 weeks or so if they do better than this round. 

my problem is I keep experimenting with different things every batch.......

I'm thinking of rocking just 5 uvl redsun , 2 coral wave, and 1 uvl super actinic for flower. For now im just going to swap out 2 bulbs for now.

I have some going at the same time now with 1000w and t5 and the ones under the t5 have slightly bigger buds too. They are all at 3 weeks. these ones got the proper veg time and were very healthy all through veg, went back to ffof soil.


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## PetFlora (Dec 9, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I HIGHLY doubt any aquarium bulb on the market has the capability to damage a plant unless it is actually touching the leaves. 1900 PPM?????? that is REALLY high. I only use 950 ppm at the most for hydro. I know it's a bit different but still seems high. Anyway, back to the drawing board!


Believe me I know better, and still. 

The thing is. during veg she was very happy at ~1300. But then she wasn't sucking water like a drunken sailor.

The game changes during flower, and I failed to account for it. The problem was multiplied by increased ppm in the rez due to extreme water consumption to feed all those bud cribs combined with ~ 45 minute flood cycles. She slow cooked from the inside, and no amount of flushing saved her.

The ~ 45-60 minute flood cycles seem fine during flower, but I will make sure to keep next plants under 800 during flower, and increase time between flooding when I am away for a few hours. Also, thinking to expand flooding to ~ 2 hours during flower.


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## PetFlora (Dec 9, 2011)

I would have tagged this with a *LIKE, *but for some reason it's not working. Man all this addictive behavior about a bulb (Fiji) we never had any spectral proof of. Yes Pr0f recommended it, but geez, he is human. 



hyroot said:


> Ok I take back what I said about the fiji's. I just took half of what I chopped down and put into jars. I got much less than I expected. I was expecting an hp and got 5 oz. Granted they had a few deficiency's when they went into flower and bug issues this round and some of them were smaller than before. The quality is unreal. I started looking at the bulbs and the fiji purps do look more blue than the coral waves. So it seems there is more blue than red. So I am thinking of swapping out 2 fiji purps with red suns then possibly throw the fiji purps into veg. I know thats the opposite of what I said. But after seeing my yield, the drunk goggles came off. on the other hand there were many other factors that I never had to deal with before. So I cant really judge this batch. This might just be some bitter ramblings though.


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## PetFlora (Dec 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.
> 
> 4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......
> 
> ...


I use UVL *AQUA Suns* in veg; UVL Red Sun/Life in flower


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 9, 2011)

What do you guys think about using T5's for a commercial grower? Practical with all the bulb switching? Im talking a 2 room with 24 plants in flower type operation that is currently running 8 1000's in each room.


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 9, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What do you guys think about using T5's for a commercial grower? Practical with all the bulb switching? Im talking a 2 room with 24 plants in flower type operation that is currently running 8 1000's in each room.


I believe that it is possible to come up with a viable commercial PAR T5 solution that would involve minimal bulb switching...

As far as yields... It looks like the proof is not yet in the pudding. I do want to say that I wish I was able participate in the amazing research being performed here, but my current situation is LED panels supplemented with CFL. Works great for me, so I have no need to replace it. But I would love to build a PAR T5 in a similar space and run comparisons, but... ***sigh*** I am not able to at the moment for several reasons. Anyways, MANY THANKS to those of you who are pushing the research!!! Keep the pictures coming!!! =D =D =D


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 9, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> I believe that it is possible to come up with a viable commercial PAR T5 solution that would involve minimal bulb switching...


I'd love to hear one!


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 9, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> I'd love to hear one!


Seriously? Suggestions for bulb configurations are found all throughout this thread...

I could come up with a configuration to suggest to you, but my suggestions are purely theoretical. In fact I have previously posted some suggestions earlier on in this thread for an 8 bulb setup, which once you had a good 8 bulb setup, you could basically just repeat/scale out as big as you want from there, but yeah, I am not actually growing with a PAR T5 setup.

I would listen to someone like UnderCurrentDWC who is actually growing with PAR T5 in a "larger" space, and having what looks to me like great success! AlterNation, PetFlora, murshdawg, organicbynature, of course the pr0f himself, and increasingly many others here are also actually growing with PAR T5 setups and dicussing their results... It's a work in progress!

So I say to you, do the research, take the plunge and build your own PAR T5 setup, and let us know the results! Many of the bulb choices involved here come down to personal decisions, and the results are not yet documented, so JOIN IN THE FUN =D


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## Calrt (Dec 9, 2011)

I have my two tents up and going and went dark for 12hrs last night. 6 plants in each tent, one tent is a 600w air cooled reflector hood with a digital ballast and Hortilux bulb. The other is a 8 bulb Bad Boy with 3 Red Suns, 2 Fijis, 2 454s and 1 75.25. I have two Coral Waves that will be here Monday that I will put in place of the 454s. Aquarium Specialies screwed me and did not ship them 3 day when they said they would....All 12 came out from being Vegged under a 600w MH and are 18-24" tall and a little lankey. They spent one day in Veg with my set up and already the T5 plants perked up better. One even grew itself into one of the bulbs over night! I had at least a 4" gap from the closest plant too. It was split between the 454 bulb and Red Sun if it matters. Anyway, I will try to keep you all posted!


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## organicbynature (Dec 9, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Thanks organic! I definitely didn't memorize all 149 pages, but it appears you did Rainman
> 
> I like the Flora Sun graph, especially the far red 760 peak for flowering, but there does appear to be a decent amount of wasted peaks there. That's a very strong 545 peak as well as a 610 which probably accounts for 30-40% of the bulb's output. I know we do need some green in there but this may be overkill. Thanks for obtaining all those graphs from Zoo Med!
> 
> okthanks, I'm very interested in that Gro-Lux bulb. I assume you are in the US? How was the shipping charge on those boys? The Gro-Lux and the AquaMedic Plant Grow could be the new base bulbs. It is indeed hard to find red T5's and unfortunately most of the aquarium applications are based on the visual appeal of how they make the tank and the fish look rather than attacking it from a plant growing mindset. Most fish tank people are growing coral, and perhaps coral needs less red wavelengths than land based plants. After all, blue light is absorbed least by ocean water, so this is what coral receive the most of, and have probably evolved to make more efficient use of blue light and have less of a need for the red wavelengths. Thus aquarium bulbs would be geared more toward the actinic side of the spectrum. Just a theory.


I think you got this, but I was of course joking about memorizing the thread and serious about an FAQ/Index. This thread has been such a learning process, it's probably a pretty big thing for new folks to tackle at this point, with information spread all throughout. Maybe we can put something together as a group and the Prof can link to it in the initial post.

I agree the Flora Sun is not perfect, I just haven't come across anything that has a better graph to my eyes. The 550 spike is tall but narrow, so as I understand it there isn't a lot of actual wattage going into it (am I wrong about this?). There is also a spike at ~610-615 as you note. This is actually where the peak is on the Red Sun graph, though it sounds like the Red Suns are really at 630 and their chart is just not very good. Also, HPS are heavily focused in this yellow/orange area and while it's not the most efficient part of the spectrum, it's far from wasted.

It's worth pointing out that nobody besides for me, I think, has really latched onto this bulb - so it's not very popular right now. I'm not thrilled with the bulb color, but don't have a lot to compare it to. I don't see any graphs I like better for a base bulb though. It's a broader spectrum bulb to be sure, but one that fits the shape of the PAR curve quite well. But is it as good as it looks in the chart even? Beats me.

hyroot - sorry to hear your yield was lower than expected! Keep us updated!


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## AltarNation (Dec 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Ok I take back what I said obout the fiji's. I just took half of what I chopped down and put into jars. I got much less than I expected. I was expecting an hp and got 5 oz. Granted they had a few deficiency's when they went into flower and bug issues this round and some of them were smaller than before. The quality is unreal. I started looking at th bulbs and the fiji purps do look more blue than the coral waves. So it seems there is more blue than red. So I am thinking of swapping out 2 fiji purps with redsuns then possibly throw the fiji purps into veg. I know thats the opposite of what I said. But after seeing my yield, the drunk goggles came off. on the other hand there were many other factors that I never had to deal with before. So I cant really judge this batch. This might just be some bitter ramblings though.


Hmm... a little confused... are you saying that you WERE pro fiji purp, but now you're not so sure? Or the other way around?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.
> 
> 4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......
> 
> ...


What sort of problems did you have with the Dr. Earth soil? Also, there are a few different kinds of Dr. Earth soil so which one were you using? I am curious because I just swapped all the Fox Farm Ocean Forest shit out for the Dr. Earth because of HUGE PROBLEMS with the Fox Farm shit. I will NEVER purchase another FOX FARM product again. I have only just switched to the Dr. Earth brand and got the all purpose potting soil. So far so good. PH is spot on, no bugs yet (knock on wood). Keep in mind, the majority of the time the reason there are bugs in soil is because of where the distributors store it. It usually isn't the manufacturer's fault. The PH problem with the Ocean Forest, however, IS the manufacturer's fault. The PH is 7.8 of the last batch! Also, it depends on what plant it was made out of. I have only experienced good things with the N. Cali plant for Fox "Farm. "There is a new one out east that I have only heard bad things from.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 9, 2011)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Seriously? Suggestions for bulb configurations are found all throughout this thread...
> 
> I could come up with a configuration to suggest to you, but my suggestions are purely theoretical. In fact I have previously posted some suggestions earlier on in this thread for an 8 bulb setup, which once you had a good 8 bulb setup, you could basically just repeat/scale out as big as you want from there, but yeah, I am not actually growing with a PAR T5 setup.
> 
> ...


Yea yea yea...I know! Hey I just got 3 8 bulb fixtures delivered. Bunch of bulbs on the way, 454, red suns, Fiji, and Actinic. Gonna give it a go with those and see how it goes. Anything has to be better than my current grow of tiny nugs from this Blackstars LED grow. We are gonna move those to the Veg room because they are really good at vegging.


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## Redoctober (Dec 9, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I think you got this, but I was of course joking about memorizing the thread and serious about an FAQ/Index. This thread has been such a learning process, it's probably a pretty big thing for new folks to tackle at this point, with information spread all throughout. Maybe we can put something together as a group and the Prof can link to it in the initial post.
> 
> I agree the Flora Sun is not perfect, I just haven't come across anything that has a better graph to my eyes. The 550 spike is tall but narrow, so as I understand it there isn't a lot of actual wattage going into it (am I wrong about this?). There is also a spike at ~610-615 as you note. This is actually where the peak is on the Red Sun graph, though it sounds like the Red Suns are really at 630 and their chart is just not very good. Also, HPS are heavily focused in this yellow/orange area and while it's not the most efficient part of the spectrum, it's far from wasted.
> 
> ...


Yes I was of course kidding...sort of...it actually does appear that you have this thread memorized lol! I think the Index/FAQ would be very helpful; it'd be nice to have a centralized, concise summary of the basic premise of the science involved, a list of the bulbs and their spectral graphs, bulb configurations, and so forth so thread participants (myself included) can stop asking: what the graph for such and such a bulb is, or how do I arrange my 8 lamp fixture? I do think it's important for new people to read the whole thing at least once, as long and tedious as that might be, but even for people like myself who've read it three times, it's still hard to keep track of everything. If it helps get things going, Here are some post numbers where bulb configuration is discussed (this doesn't cover the entire thread, only the first 80 pages or so): 

72, 285, 318, 328, 394, 405, 412, 441, 458, 478, 489, 492, 493, 504, 520, 552, 556, 573, 574, 658, 668, 680, 704 

As for the Flora Sun Graph I'm not sure about the total percentages and how they are arrived at. Intuitively I would say that if you integrate the area under the curve (calculus 1) you will have the total output of the bulb, so you may be right that narrower peaks mean less total output than wider smoother ones. I'm not positive about this though. So then it would stand to reason that if you used the partial differential equation and integrated just the sectional area of the single peak, then inserted it into a proportional ratio with the entire integral's area, you would theoretically get the percentage output of that one peak.....theoretically. One thing to be careful of is if the y-axis measuring intensity is linear or exponential. I'm pretty sure it's linear, but not all spectral graphs are the same. 

All that being said, I'm excited for you to get those AquaMedic and Gro-Lux bulbs! I think they both have great potential! 

Yes I think the HPS do have output in the yellow/red range, which would explain a little bit about why they work for flower, but when you really think about it especially in the context of all the science in this thread, it almost doesn't make sense that HPS bulbs are actually as efficient as they are. You'd think that if they only are functioning at roughly 20% PAR, the results would be mediocre at best, yet I think we would all agree that they do still produce pretty well....kind of a head scratcher when you examine it in context of the theory of photosynthesis.


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## Redoctober (Dec 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> The buds are just as dense. They look amazing. More color and very frosty and very sticky.
> 
> 4 of them only got 2 week veg time and the rest had 5 weeks. The 2 week ones replaced others that were doing horrible thanks to the WACK Dr. Earth Soil. Never use that again. Also I did not cut off any lower growth this round either. I wanted to see if these bulbs could penetrate to the lower buds. If they were spread out more they probably would have swelled more. I have sveral more to chop his weekend and those have been the most healthy so .......
> 
> ...


I see. Well I guess it's a consolation to know that it likely didn't fall short because of the T5's, but rather the soil/nutrients/veg time. I know all about the temptation to experiment, and therefore I don't conduct proper science myself. I get overeager, and tinker with multiple aspects simultaneously, so then if I get good results, I don't know exactly which variable made the difference, or if was a synergistic effect. Similarly if the results go bad, I don't know which thing I changed caused it either. 

Good to hear about the bud morphology...they sound like winners, even though you didn't get the yield you were looking for. It's nice that you are doing a side by side with the 1000W HPS too. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you added another 8 lamp light which would bring you up to 864W of PAR T5 power! That would give your HPS a serious run for it's money. It would be expensive too so I'm not saying you should run out and do this...just a thought


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## RyanTheRhino (Dec 9, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Hmm... a little confused... are you saying that you WERE pro fiji purp, but now you're not so sure? Or the other way around?


like for a like whats up


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Hmm... a little confused... are you saying that you WERE pro fiji purp, but now you're not so sure? Or the other way around?


yep i was pro fiji and now I'm not sure


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> I see. Well I guess it's a consolation to know that it likely didn't fall short because of the T5's, but rather the soil/nutrients/veg time. I know all about the temptation to experiment, and therefore I don't conduct proper science myself. I get overeager, and tinker with multiple aspects simultaneously, so then if I get good results, I don't know exactly which variable made the difference, or if was a synergistic effect. Similarly if the results go bad, I don't know which thing I changed caused it either.
> 
> Good to hear about the bud morphology...they sound like winners, even though you didn't get the yield you were looking for. It's nice that you are doing a side by side with the 1000W HPS too. It would be interesting to see what would happen if you added another 8 lamp light which would bring you up to 864W of PAR T5 power! That would give your HPS a serious run for it's money. It would be expensive too so I'm not saying you should run out and do this...just a thought



I do want to add another t5. i was thinking of getting rid of my 1000w but now i might keep the combo for now until i perfect the t5 and then........


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## AltarNation (Dec 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> yep i was pro fiji and now I'm not sure


Well I've got a good bit of fiji purp goin on in mine as well, so we will see what happens. I am still waiting for them to finish up... getting closer.

Unfortunately, since it's my first grow, I won't be much of a gauge either... too many unpredicted variables at work. Had a calcium deficiency... didn't cut with perlite like is recommended for FFOF... and I'm a total fuckin newb, lol.

But still, we'll see how it goes I guess.

Were your figures for all plants combined or what?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 9, 2011)

If the Zoo Med Flora Sun spectral analysis was actually CORRECT, the bulb would be emitting WAY more RED than it actually is, and it is not. I would say the chart is indeed, way wrong. It does have a slight pink, but no where near RED. 

For now, I am only trying to find the perfect "Veg" bulb formula. All of the plants will then be moved to HPS for flower FOR NOW. My initial purpose for trying to find that perfect Veg combo was to prevent the "shock" that happens when moved from T5 to 1000w HPS. After that, I will work on finding that perfect "Flower" bulb formula. I've also thought that it would be nice to find a spectrum that would work for both flower and veg, but maybe it wouldn't be possible. Eventually it would be very nice to move away from HID lighting altogether. My ultimate goal would be 2, 10 bulb x 4 ft fixtures in a 5' x 5' room with the CO2 at 1300 PPM.

I just finished perfecting the vent that took days and days to finish for my 1000w HPS. I've had to insulate the ductwork so it won't ice up when it brings -20 F degree air in from outside! For the last week ice has been falling down off the ducting on to my head and on the plants, not to mention water dripping onto all the electrical. It has been quite the experience trying to vent ONLY the heat from the light out of the room and keep the heat under control, not to mention keeping the CO2 in the room! But, finally everything has evened out. 75 F degree 24/7. 1300 PPM CO2. NO frost falling off the ducting and/or water. The amount of electricity that is used in order to keep the heat and air exchanges under control in order to use 1000w HID lighting is absolutely insane, not to mention the 1000w FROM JUST THE LIGHT ITSELF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can't wait for the day I can say "goodbye" to HID and still get the same or BETTER yield. Better quality would be a + as well.


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

If the fiji purps really have the same amount of blue and red in the visible spectrum they should appear purple like the coral wave does. To all who already got fiji purps and those who did not I came up with a couple new bulb combos for flower......

8 bulb................Coral Wave / Redsun / Fiji Purp / Redsun / Coral Wave / Fiji Purp / Redsun / Coral Wave ( for people who already have fiji and don't want to spend too much more money)

or..................... Redsun / Redsun / Coral Wave / Redsun / Blue Actinic / Coral Wave / Redsun / Redsun


I came up with a new veg combo 

6 bulb .........................Blue Actinic / Redsun / Blue Actinic / Blue Actinic / Redsun / Blue actinic


blue actinic ............UV lighting Super blue actinic


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## okthanks2 (Dec 9, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Well I've got a good bit of fiji purp goin on in mine as well, so we will see what happens. I am still waiting for them to finish up... getting closer.
> 
> Unfortunately, since it's my first grow, I won't be much of a gauge either... too many unpredicted variables at work. Had a calcium deficiency... didn't cut with perlite like is recommended for FFOF... and I'm a total fuckin newb, lol.
> 
> ...


I have ALWAYS cut the Fox Farm Ocean Forest with Perlite 50/50 with great results, up to the last few months. Fox Farm quality control has gone to shit. Did you try to PH the soil? The last batch of that shit soil was at 7.8. I will NEVER purchase another Fox Farm product again.


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Well I've got a good bit of fiji purp goin on in mine as well, so we will see what happens. I am still waiting for them to finish up... getting closer.
> 
> Unfortunately, since it's my first grow, I won't be much of a gauge either... too many unpredicted variables at work. Had a calcium deficiency... didn't cut with perlite like is recommended for FFOF... and I'm a total fuckin newb, lol.
> 
> ...



Mine were for half of the plants. I'm chopping down the rest this weekend . They had to go an longer. I also think I tried to cram to many under the t5


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> What sort of problems did you have with the Dr. Earth soil? Also, there are a few different kinds of Dr. Earth soil so which one were you using? I am curious because I just swapped all the Fox Farm Ocean Forest shit out for the Dr. Earth because of HUGE PROBLEMS with the Fox Farm shit. I will NEVER purchase another FOX FARM product again. I have only just switched to the Dr. Earth brand and got the all purpose potting soil. So far so good. PH is spot on, no bugs yet (knock on wood). Keep in mind, the majority of the time the reason there are bugs in soil is because of where the distributors store it. It usually isn't the manufacturer's fault. The PH problem with the Ocean Forest, however, IS the manufacturer's fault. The PH is 7.8 of the last batch! Also, it depends on what plant it was made out of. I have only experienced good things with the N. Cali plant for Fox "Farm. "There is a new one out east that I have only heard bad things from.



I used the dr. earth potting soil and medicine soil. Medicine one dried to fast. Almost no perlite in them. The medicine one only has high n guano and that's it. The potting soil has nothing in it.. barely any microbial. They advertise it to have so much more. Because of that soil, even when I added nutes. There were major deficiencies. calcium, manesium, magnanese, nitrogen, phosphorus.That soil attracts bugs like no other.. Plants grew so slow in that soil too. I never had that problem with fox farm ocean forest. So I went back to it. That is the only thing I buy from fox farm. I have a rule when buying soil. It has to be chillin indoors at a shop. I will never buy soil if it is sitting outside. More chance for bugs. Too much heat or cold can mess with ph too ( my opinion). You know they spray those shops to keep bugs out.

You could try roots organic or sunshine ...... I haven't used them but I hear good things or just mix your own soil...


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## organicbynature (Dec 9, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> All that being said, I'm excited for you to get those AquaMedic and Gro-Lux bulbs! I think they both have great potential!


You're thinking of okthanks2 in this regard. I am really looking forward to seeing how all his different bulbs look next to each other!


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

I looked at the grow lux bulbs. They only come in t8 bulbs but they make a pentron model for t5 that has similar specs


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

So I just tried. Runing ffiji purps by themselves and they appear very purple. So I just keep confusing myself. I dont know what im doing anymore aaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! I dont know. Argh


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## AltarNation (Dec 9, 2011)

Those sound good man... I am going to do something like that, drop in some red suns for veg so that I can avoid the coral wave's infrared like you said.


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## AltarNation (Dec 9, 2011)

hyroot said:


> So I just tried. Runing ffiji purps by themselves and they appear very purple. So I just keep confusing myself. I dont know what im doing anymore aaahhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!! I dont know. Argh


Don't worry man, none of us know what we're doing.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 9, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I have ALWAYS cut the Fox Farm Ocean Forest with Perlite 50/50 with great results, up to the last few months. Fox Farm quality control has gone to shit. Did you try to PH the soil? The last batch of that shit soil was at 7.8. I will NEVER purchase another Fox Farm product again.


Move from FF to straight Coco with like 10% perlite and it was a great move.


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## cannabineer (Dec 9, 2011)

I've got Happy Frog soil going and I'm tickled pink* with it so far ... cn

*or is that Fiji purple?


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## AltarNation (Dec 9, 2011)

My foxfarm has been serving me well, really... but I read later on that it should be cut with perlite. LoL, I bought like 6 bags when I bought it, because i heard it was the best and I was paranoid about coming back to the shop multiple times. LOL.

I still have about 4 bags, maybe 4 and a half, hahaha. This shit will last me a loooong time if I start cutting with perlite.

I bought these two big ass 25 (guess) gallon mixing bins that I was going to use as drain basins... now I'm thinking I should fill the bottom with some rock and use the whole things as containers and veg out some monsters... use up that FFOF... hahah. Or maybe I'll just hold onto it, because I have no idea what I'd use to catch run off if I did that. (Could do it outdoors, but the season is short)


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## Redoctober (Dec 9, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> You're thinking of okthanks2 in this regard. I am really looking forward to seeing how all his different bulbs look next to each other!


Shit! I just can't keep things in this thread straight...my apologies. Wait, this is the Clay Aiken forum right? jk  

Say what ever became of LightLady? She had a real nice 18 bulb setup going with aero. I was very anxious to find out how her grow turned out. Are you still following along here LightLady? Blink once for yes, twice for no


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## okthanks2 (Dec 9, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> My foxfarm has been serving me well, really... but I read later on that it should be cut with perlite. LoL, I bought like 6 bags when I bought it, because i heard it was the best and I was paranoid about coming back to the shop multiple times. LOL.
> 
> I still have about 4 bags, maybe 4 and a half, hahaha. This shit will last me a loooong time if I start cutting with perlite.
> 
> I bought these two big ass 25 (guess) gallon mixing bins that I was going to use as drain basins... now I'm thinking I should fill the bottom with some rock and use the whole things as containers and veg out some monsters... use up that FFOF... hahah. Or maybe I'll just hold onto it, because I have no idea what I'd use to catch run off if I did that. (Could do it outdoors, but the season is short)


 I used to have GREAT success with Fox Farm Ocean Forest, up until they started the new plant out east. Now all the soil that people get in the central and eastern states is from out east and NOT northern california. Where are you from? If you say California then that is WHY you still have good success with the Fox Farm. No other reason.


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## hyroot (Dec 9, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Don't worry man, none of us know what we're doing.


Now im thinking of swapping one fiji for a redsun. Leaning it more towards red


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## Myles117 (Dec 9, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I used to have GREAT success with Fox Farm Ocean Forest, up until they started the new plant out east. Now all the soil that people get in the central and eastern states is from out east and NOT northern california. Where are you from? If you say California then that is WHY you still have good success with the Fox Farm. No other reason.


i live in northeast and have been growing with their happy frog for years without a single prob. i dont use the ocean forest tho


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## AltarNation (Dec 9, 2011)

Not from cali. I wonder if the bags say where they came from. They were purchased in the northeast, but the guy had a lot of it on hand and I have no idea how long it sat in his store.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 9, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Not from cali. I wonder if the bags say where they came from. They were purchased in the northeast, but the guy had a lot of it on hand and I have no idea how long it sat in his store.


 Thats probably why. I don't get it either, I've always had great results with the soil, and now it all has gone down the pisser. The last 20 bags of it have all had issues, from bugs to PH.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm not trying to promote the Dr. Earth crap, but after transplanting my ladies out of the shit soil and into this crap they have actually started growing and I am thinking my T5 arrangement is kicking ass. I have one lady in an ebb and flow as well, so that means no shitty soil to deal with and she is starting to take off. Anyway, my bulb arrangement if anyone is interested is:
2 Fiji Purp, 2 UVL super actinic, 2 UVL red sun, 1 ati blue plus and 1 ZooMed Flora Sun. They really look like they do when under a 400w MH hortilux blue. One more week and they should be good enough to take some action shots and pose for me!


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## AltarNation (Dec 9, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> Thats probably why. I don't get it either, I've always had great results with the soil, and now it all has gone down the pisser. The last 20 bags of it have all had issues, from bugs to PH.


Weird. Definitely no bug problems, and my plants grow healthily in it. I never PH'd it, but didn't feel the need to either.


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## PetFlora (Dec 10, 2011)

OK guys I started a *Tips Tricks FAQ journal.* It needs a bit of editing, but here's the url : https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog18579-tips-tricks-faq-ho-t.html

I may have to move this to *forum threads *as I see no way to edit it, although replies can be edited.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 10, 2011)

Wonder what a 400w CMH with some Red Sun and Coral Wave supplement would do?


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## hyroot (Dec 10, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I'm not trying to promote the Dr. Earth crap, but after transplanting my ladies out of the shit soil and into this crap they have actually started growing and I am thinking my T5 arrangement is kicking ass. I have one lady in an ebb and flow as well, so that means no shitty soil to deal with and she is starting to take off. Anyway, my bulb arrangement if anyone is interested is:
> 2 Fiji Purp, 2 UVL super actinic, 2 UVL red sun, 1 ati blue plus and 1 ZooMed Flora Sun. They really look like they do when under a 400w MH hortilux blue. One more week and they should be good enough to take some action shots and pose for me!



Mine were like that in the first week with dr. earth.. After that everything went to shit..


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 10, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I used to have GREAT success with Fox Farm Ocean Forest, up until they started the new plant out east. Now all the soil that people get in the central and eastern states is from out east and NOT northern california. Where are you from? If you say California then that is WHY you still have good success with the Fox Farm. No other reason.



SUPERSOIL nuff said 
PS stay on topic.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 10, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> SUPERSOIL nuff said


WHICH ONE? Link please?


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## AltarNation (Dec 10, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> SUPERSOIL nuff said
> PS stay on topic.


155 pages deep I'd say we're doin pretty good stayin on topic, lol.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 11, 2011)

Some info worth checking out. The idea of using T5's for "wavelength specific" grow ops has been around for some time. They kinda wander trying to find that correct wavelength especially in the Red spectrum. Take a look
https://www.gardenscure.com/420/lighting/89513-bulbs-comparison-tool.html
http://www.gardenscure.com/420/lighting-reference/103689-spectral-distributions-various-bulbs-6.html
https://www.gardenscure.com/420/lighting/89513-bulbs-comparison-tool.html
http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f47/grow-room-3x5-12936/index2.html


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## okthanks2 (Dec 11, 2011)

This bulb seems to be the answer to the elusive Red 660nm, now finding one in the USA might be the next challenge!
Osram Fluora 77


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 11, 2011)

Wow!

http://www.gardenscure.com/420/lighting-reference/103689-spectral-distributions-various-bulbs-6.html


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## falcon223 (Dec 11, 2011)

Pleas where is everyone getting there Fiji purple ??


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## Calrt (Dec 11, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Pleas where is everyone getting there Fiji purple ??


Do some reading in this thread and you might want to give something differant a go. I have the Fiji Purps and got them from Eye poppin coral. Too soon to tell if I would buy them again.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 11, 2011)

I don't understand why people have doubts about the Fiji Purple. I know that the specs remain elusive, although a few people in here have already verified that they work, including the guy who started this thread. I'm sure they have both red and blue in them, so I would say it is probably safe to assume that you could get by running only the Fiji Purple and some Red Suns. Only one way to find out!! We need more testers to eliminate bulb options. I have already purchased about $700 worth of T5 bulbs!!!!! And I KNOW FOR SURE I won't be using them all.


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## hyroot (Dec 11, 2011)

Well I chopped down the rest. They swelled up a lot. I will know how much I got total in a week. I think im going to end up with a pretty good yield aside from the other strains I chopped over a week ago. I think I will stick with the fiji's. Still might swap one for a redsun. Like I said before I have some girls under a 1k and some girls under the t5. They are the same age. The ones under th t5 have bigger buds. I have same strains under both lights. This time no deficiencies during veg. No bugs and I trimmed of lower growth and they ar 18 inches taller too. So I expect to have a much better yield this next round. I'll post some pics in a day or 2.

3 kz fiji purple, 3 uvl redsun, and 2 wave point coral waves


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 11, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Well I chopped down the rest. They swelled up a lot. I will know how much I got total in a week. I think im going to end up with a pretty good yield aside from the other strains I chopped over a week ago. I think I will stick with the fiji's. Still might swap one for a redsun. Like I said before I have some girls under a 1k and some girls under the t5. They are the same age. The ones under th t5 have bigger buds. I have same strains under both lights. This time no deficiencies during veg. No bugs and I trimmed of lower growth and they ar 18 inches taller too. So I expect to have a much better yield this next round. I'll post some pics in a day or 2.
> 
> 3 kz fiji purple, 3 uvl redsun, and 2 wave point coral waves


Lookin forward to your results. How many plants are you able to put under an 8 bulb fixture?


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## Calrt (Dec 11, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I don't understand why people have doubts about the Fiji Purple. I know that the specs remain elusive, although a few people in here have already verified that they work, including the guy who started this thread. I'm sure they have both red and blue in them, so I would say it is probably safe to assume that you could get by running only the Fiji Purple and some Red Suns. Only one way to find out!! We need more testers to eliminate bulb options. I have already purchased about $700 worth of T5 bulbs!!!!! And I KNOW FOR SURE I won't be using them all.


I have nothing against them, just started mine in flower and I will let you know. But I were to start over I may go a different route with something known.....


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## Beagle (Dec 12, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> I am running a couple Flora Suns, but they put out a lot of unusable light. The whole point of this thread was to try and find bulbs that only put out the usable wavelengths (or closest to that). The Flora Sun puts out a warm white color. I just purchased a few different ones to compare. ATI ProColor, Aqua Medic, Plant Grow, and Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 HO (from Germany). Needless to say, I am sure I will have quite a few bulbs left over after finding the ones that my plants like the best. LOL


Have your Sylvania Gro-Lux bulbs arrived yet?


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## hyroot (Dec 12, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Lookin forward to your results. How many plants are you able to put under an 8 bulb fixture?




I had 15, 2.5 footers. Meow I can only fit 8, 4 footers. I'll probably get more of the 8 too.......


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## falcon223 (Dec 12, 2011)

We are on track professor, soil is just as important as light.


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## PetFlora (Dec 12, 2011)

Just a reminder that I started A journal (see my sig) where everyone can post learned information so others do not have to dig through 156 pages.

If you would rather I copied it into a thread just let me know


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 12, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> It also seems unlikely to me that this would induce flowering, but it sounded like he (was it hyroot? I can't find it now) was speaking from experience. I'm not going to test it myself, because I have some Zoo Med Coral Suns (Super Actinics) that I got for $10 ea. I'd rather use those for veg than the Coral Waves.
> 
> I suspect any super actinic on the market would be a better veg bulb than the Coral Wave.
> 
> Will the Coral Waves put your veg plants into flower? Try it out and let us know your experience!


I personally don't use the coral waves for veg, but I do use the blue wave 460 and reef wave420nm with 2 6500k's... Not much for far red wavelengths but some minor uva waves... I had two begin to flower under 22/2. I suspect one may have been an autoflower (tall skinny sativa dom) but the other is a squatty indica, both started to flower under 22/2... ??? I haven't seem it before. Thoughts? I'll edit this post later to add pics, or just check my journal (sig) I updated last nite.

Just ordered a 8x48 t5 and some more uvl red suns, and coral and reef waves  ill be pushing 860w+ of PAR specific T5s  good stuff!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 12, 2011)

Any of you know what the spectrum or kelvins are on the stock bulbs that come in the Home Depot T5 HO light fixture?


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## MurshDawg (Dec 12, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Any of you know what the spectrum or kelvins are on the stock bulbs that come in the Home Depot T5 HO light fixture?


if they say 'cool' they are between 5600k and 6500k if they say 'warm' they'll be between 2500k and 3000k


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 12, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> if they say 'cool' they are between 5600k and 6500k if they say 'warm' they'll be between 2500k and 3000k


obviously. however, they don't say shit.


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## MurshDawg (Dec 12, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> obviously. however, they don't say shit.


You can tell by the light... if the light looks like daylight (really really white) it's a cool bulb if it looks like a reading lamp or an HPS (really orange) than it's warm


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## falcon223 (Dec 12, 2011)

Shit, where shit, no see shit.


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## falcon223 (Dec 12, 2011)

My home depot doesn't have any t5s.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 12, 2011)

Beagle said:


> Have your Sylvania Gro-Lux bulbs arrived yet?


Not yet, they are coming from Germany. I just emailed them today to see when they were getting sent out and I got a reply in German.LOL


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## okthanks2 (Dec 12, 2011)

So I just got some Aqua Medic Plant Grow bulbs and tried them out. They are very "white" looking with a tinge of pink. I would say DEFINATELY stick with the Fiji Purples. So far they are the "reddest" 2nd to the Red Suns. Hyroot, I would say your bulb configuration is the best so far. I did purchase some of the ATI procolor bulbs that are discontinued, got them for $8.99 a piece so I couldn't pass it up, however, they are quite on the "white" side as well. They are supposed to contain some red, but I can't see it! They are VERY comparable to the Aquamedic plant grow bulbs, but a little dimmer. Not much though. I don't understand why they look so white!? I can't wait to check out the T5 HO Gro-Lux bulbs. I had purchased some T8 standard output bulbs (gro-lux) and they had a real nice color light, but very very dim. They were pink/purple.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 12, 2011)

Just a quick update on the Dr. Earth soil: So Hyroot, you was right once again! Approximately 1 week later, started seeing a Mg deficiency. I am so fed up to this point I just bought some Miracle Grow Moisture control soil. They are looking a lot healthier now and NO BUGS! I purchased a bag of Happy Frog once again and will keep it outside for now since I had bugs with that type recently. I can't have any more problems with bugs, it has really set me behind schedule. I will have to check the PH as well. I am still waiting for a reply as to what "super soil" to use. I googled it and got back about 20 different types of "super soil."


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## overTHEman (Dec 12, 2011)

Hello PAR T5 Community

I discovered this thread on halloween, read it that night, and received my bulbs one month later. 

The science here is undeniable and the examples are quality. Prof, PetFlora, murshdawg, hyroot, organicbynature, and others; thank you, you have all contributed to a great wealth of knowledge on this thread. 

I'm new around here and would like to be involved in any way possible. Most importantly I'm here to learn. 



Fiji, Redsun, 454, Fiji


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## MurshDawg (Dec 12, 2011)

overTHEman said:


> Hello PAR T5 Community
> 
> I discovered this thread on halloween, read it that night, and received my bulbs one month later.
> 
> ...


Dude! I love your scrog! Nice choice on bulbs, too. Do you have a journal thread I can sub up to? Btw here's my newest video update[video=youtube;kpCYrsk7Z9Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpCYrsk7Z9Y&amp;context=C29f68ADOEgsToPDskIC1m y-jr6eH9APeJ1kKA2u[/video]


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## okthanks2 (Dec 12, 2011)

overTHEman said:


> Hello PAR T5 Community
> 
> I discovered this thread on halloween, read it that night, and received my bulbs one month later.
> 
> ...


Is this the light configuration you veg under? Flower? Veg?


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 12, 2011)

Ive been so busy lately and havent posted much, but Im still lurking around  Had 3 males I had to kill  but I still have 2 in flower and 5 in veg. I just ordered a radiion 48 (8x48") to replace my 4 bulb t5 Im using in veg now, Im going to put it opposite the 4 bulb unit I have hanging for side light in my flower box, so Ill have 4 on each side. I currently have a wavepoint blue wave and reef wave with 2 6500k's for veg, and wavepoint coral wave and red wave with 3000k bloom's for flowering under a 400w Growbrite HPS in a cool tube. I was gonna go all t5 for flowering but decided to try the cool tube... Im sorry but the 400 is rocking inside the tube! temps are fine for now so Ill use the HPS until it starts getting hot out again in March, then all T5's thru summer 




pics from yesterday... .   



I just ordered 4 UVL red suns and some more coral wave and reef waves to use with the 10000k and 460nm actinics the 8x48 T5 comes with. Ill have pics of the new setup on friday


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 12, 2011)

Any input on distance from plants to keep your T5's? I know its been covered, and the general concensus is 3-6"ish, I know Prof keeps his further for better spectral blending... just looking for input from actual T5 Par growers with experience. The pic in my last post was just posing, I normally keep em 3-4" above the tops if I can, and I notice very strong growth, like they're reaching for the blue in veg.






As side lighting, you can see the tops that are reaching for the T5's, under the 400w HPS 



Before I had to kill my males, I now only have the two smaller girls in front.


Ill soon have another 4x48" T5 opposite this one in flower  w/ some UVL Red suns  Ill prob loose the cfl's then

As side lighting they're generally a little further away than they would be if on top... any thoughts on distance for side lighting? should I smush them right up into the foliage? or let the fan leaves work in behind the bulbs even? The t5's dont burn if left on the leaf surface, so...? Ill prob try it, Im just worried the overall ambient temp might get too high between the 2 4-bulb T5 units, Ill have to use a few more fans for sure.


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## AltarNation (Dec 12, 2011)

Careful, T5's have a rated running temp of 95 degrees F and if there isn't a fan right on the bulb it can definitely get hot enough to hurt the plant a little. I don't know about leaves but I have had some buds harmed by growing into the lights.

Personally, I like to keep mine as close as possible. I don't care about spectrum balancing so much, I rotate and move my plants regularly to keep that from being too much of an issue. However, I find that I don't want to get closer than about 3" because of the heat... it just scares me a little so I play it safe... though I have to say that was before I built my ballast cooler, which works like a charm, and I don't really worry about too much heat buildup under the fixture now.


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## overTHEman (Dec 13, 2011)

MurshDawg said:


> Dude! I love your scrog! Nice choice on bulbs, too. Do you have a journal thread I can sub up to? Btw here's my newest video update[video=youtube;kpCYrsk7Z9Y]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpCYrsk7Z9Y&amp;context=C29f68ADOEgsToPDskIC1m y-jr6eH9APeJ1kKA2u[/video]


A video update, wonderful. Your garden looks fantastic.


okthanks2, this is my current light configuration for both veg and flower. 50/50 red/blue per the pr0f's instructions.


Altarnation! Thank you as well, you have been an excellent resource for this thread.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 13, 2011)

A quick update:

Again the plants look super healthy!... more so than any other veg light I've used!
The plants stink like a skunk again!
This coming week I'll take clones from these plants let them veg till the weekend, then switch them over to flower.





















Last week


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 13, 2011)

DAAAMMMn! UCDWC's got a micro jungle going on! Nice! And I think its hilarious that I logged on right now with the sole intention of letting it be known how impressed I am with my growth, and the last post is from you saying the same thing lol!
For Veg I only have one WavePoint Blue Wave and Reef Wave @ 420 & 460nm, with 2 6500k's in a 4 bulb fixture. I have never in my life seen internode distances as short as what Im seeing now on my vegging babies. Im talking under 6 inches tall and a foot in diameter foliage. Internodes at under 1/2". 
I gotta go take some pics, and try to find some pics from last week to compare growth. But I came home today and just sat for about 30mins smiling at how bushy my babies are. Ive never seen growth like this before, and the plants that have spent thier whole life under the t5's are trouble free and just soaking up the light they like. leaf tips just pointing the way up toward the light!

lemme go take more pics


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 13, 2011)

28 days into flower here are some updated pictures of some kind of bean i got. i have some killing fields, k.o. kush, mad kush, and jackberry x k.o. kush beans in the mail. moving to a new place soon so i will be sure to let you all know how those go. also love seeing all the action going on in this thread, underdwc your are looking great as well as the others posted recently. 

below closeup of random budsite


just another site


whole thing, i have light setup where i can raise it up and set it at a 45 degree angle, just take it down so i can get pictures. also have a 400hps just out of sight.
all the black tape is just wire spreading out the sites a bit and pulled top down before flower and just rearranged the stems a bit to optimize light to the flowers.


just a birds eye view, the main cola is pointing towards the bottom of the screen near the bottom of pic. it's about 8-10" thats gotten thick so far, most there are probably 5-6 branches that are 6-8"ish and another 5-6 that are in the 4-6"ish of full thick flowering. hoping to get around 50g dry out of it, think that is reasonable? 


this one came out really trippy in high res, might upload it in full res somewhere to get full effect, looks photoshopped or something. it's just a shot along a flower site. guess the expensive cameras are good for something.


another site


little size/length comparison of one of the 5-6 larger sites other than main


all in all i've been very happy with the results in veg with the t5 only w/ specialty bulb assortment, and was very happy with flowering results with bulbs used in this thread as well, the hps was added to make sure it is still reliable for an extended period of time, and the thought that it can't really hurt as it still is getting 2/3 to 3/4ish canopy exposure to t5 still. I do rotate the plant once during light period to give equal time to it all. all of this will be easier once i have a little more permanent setup, but this was setup for a one time use before moving to have a bit after move while i get things setup. i just hope this gives me enough to at least last half the 4 months i'm going to need to get a new harvest from seeds.


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## Redoctober (Dec 14, 2011)

This might be a silly question but a bunch of websites are listing certain bulbs (e.g. Red Sun) @ 46 inches instead of 48 inches. Do they really mean 48 inches? Or are there actually 46 inch fixtures that these bulbs are designed for, and won't fit a 48 inch BadBoy? 

Here's one such listing from Marine Depot. I was about to order from them but now I'm not sure; thought I'd check with you guys first. If you click the drop down arrow where it says: size - please select... 

http://www.marinedepot.com/UVL_T5_V_HO_Red_Sun_Bulb_633NM_VHO_Fluorescent_T5_Light_Bulbs-UV_Lighting_Company_(UVL)-UF5229-FILTBUT5VH-vi.html


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> This might be a silly question but a bunch of websites are listing certain bulbs (e.g. Red Sun) @ 46 inches instead of 48 inches. Do they really mean 48 inches? Or are there actually 46 inch fixtures that these bulbs are designed for, and won't fit a 48 inch BadBoy?
> 
> Here's one such listing from Marine Depot. I was about to order from them but now I'm not sure; thought I'd check with you guys first. If you click the drop down arrow where it says: size - please select...
> 
> http://www.marinedepot.com/UVL_T5_V_HO_Red_Sun_Bulb_633NM_VHO_Fluorescent_T5_Light_Bulbs-UV_Lighting_Company_(UVL)-UF5229-FILTBUT5VH-vi.html



a lot of them say that. but its fine.


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## einsteinus (Dec 14, 2011)

Well bob I hope you ....came..........to your senses.....when you finally came back to earth and relazied how dumb that question was...only a blind person like myself cannot see a green plant under a blue light....under such conditions it would appear black......


RobertInAz said:


> You know, I just smoked a little bowl and i was thinking about this and I had one of those thoughts that you sometimes get when you're stoned and you figure that later you'll see -- in the clear logic of the unstoned state -- that the thought you had was retarded. But I'm going to put it out here anyway, and hopefully we're all about equally stoned and it won't sound stupid. At any rate, somewhere here in the Forum one of the experts was saying that plants use light spectra in the blue and red zones, and the spectrum that they don't use is the green, hence their green color. They absorb everything except the green, which they reflect, which is why we can see it. (My girlfriend just walked by with no cloths on. She says I shouldn't get stoned today since we have things to do, but I figure that I can do both. She also says I shouldn't get stoned since it makes me forgetful and I lose my focus and train of thought, but that's ridiculous.)
> Now, what was I talking about? Oh, yeah,... I was thinking about this: if plants only reflect green, what would happen if you had one of the Professeur's pure blue bulbs, turned all other lights out, and then turned the blue one on. Would you be able to see the plants?
> Anyway, with a naked girl in the room I just decided that this idea no longer has any interest for me, but I've pretty much typed the whole thing so I might as well post it.
> All the best, Bob


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 14, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> This might be a silly question but a bunch of websites are listing certain bulbs (e.g. Red Sun) @ 46 inches instead of 48 inches. Do they really mean 48 inches? Or are there actually 46 inch fixtures that these bulbs are designed for, and won't fit a 48 inch BadBoy?
> 
> Here's one such listing from Marine Depot. I was about to order from them but now I'm not sure; thought I'd check with you guys first. If you click the drop down arrow where it says: size - please select...
> 
> http://www.marinedepot.com/UVL_T5_V_HO_Red_Sun_Bulb_633NM_VHO_Fluorescent_T5_Light_Bulbs-UV_Lighting_Company_(UVL)-UF5229-FILTBUT5VH-vi.html


What hyroot said!

Another way to determine if it's the correct bulb would be to look for it saying 54w


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> 28 days into flower here are some updated pictures of some kind of bean i got. i have some killing fields, k.o. kush, mad kush, and jackberry x k.o. kush beans in the mail. moving to a new place soon so i will be sure to let you all know how those go. also love seeing all the action going on in this thread, underdwc your are looking great as well as the others posted recently.
> 
> below closeup of random budsite
> View attachment 1933955
> ...



Looks great. But did you say you are also using an HPS? If so that kinda defeats the purpose.

What bulbs are you running in your T5 setup? Id say those plants look pretty damn fine for 28 days!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

Anyone finding any good alternative Bulb arrangements other than what has been discussed?

I know there are a ton of bulb companies out there making Aquarium bulbs and we are just touching on them.

Any of you using a Roseates yet? Im thinking too much green.

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/1/1/13352-aquaticlife-t5-ho-pink-roseate-650nm-fluorescent-lamps.html


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 14, 2011)

Lucious, while yes it would "defeat the purpose" for any scientific testing comparing the two. i never was going for that, just wanted to see what t5 can do. I Liked the thread, vegged under only t5, using mostly the bulbs pr0f suggested with a couple changes that the guy at store recommended(ATI purple plus over fiji, saved 10 bucks on price, for similar range since there isn't graph for fiji anyway hard to say) and just before i switched to flower a friend gave me an old 400w hps he had gathering dust so he said i could have it, but recommended i run it for a month on a schedule to make sure it is still reliable. So I thought why not just add it to what I have. I could be way off but I don't see how it could hurt adding more light, still have the same amount of lumens of the same wavelengths coming from the t5, just with added lumens/wavelengths of the hps is my basic idea. I just wasn't sure that harm could be done be adding "too much" light so long as your temps where under control. 

As far as trying other bulbs, I am going up to the aquarium shop(saltycritter) 45 minutes from me to talk more with the bulb guy about what i'm looking for. They are actually a pretty good place to order from, their website looks like it was made in 1995 by a kid and they are only "open" 3 days a week, but i'm kinda glad as it turns away a lot of people i'm sure, they never had a backup with the red suns or fiji's when everyone was trying to find a place that had them ready to ship and looking for alternatives. I'd recommend more people going to the store and finding someone who knows the bulbs, there was only 1 guy at this store, but he seemed pretty knowledgeable, more than me, about what i was looking for and suggesting bulbs to use. Plus most smaller businesses are willing to match online prices if you ask or at least come close.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

HEY PROFESSOR IS THIS TOO MUCH YELLOW?

GE starcoat 3000k


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

brainalive said:


> Hey All!
> 
> Noob alert! (duh). I'm a PhD student, studying biology (with a physics & mathematics background), though I'm not a botanist. The pr0f's approach really appeals to me! I'm going to try and advance things a little bit on the experimental side, once I'm satisfied that I have something to add. For now, a bit of an analytical contribution, and some more points for discussion.
> 
> ...


This post probably deserves to be refreshed.


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Anyone finding any good alternative Bulb arrangements other than what has been discussed?
> 
> I know there are a ton of bulb companies out there making Aquarium bulbs and we are just touching on them.
> 
> ...


This is actually a good example of how a high peak doesn't use as much power as you might think if the output is at a narrow range of wavelengths. Given the percentages at the side, that tall green spike accounts for less than 10% of the bulb's spectral output despite being the highest peak.

This bulb has a total of 21% of its output in the least desirable range. It's not ideal but I personally think it's a pretty decent option - since we don't have an ideal. 

Lots of great pictures posted lately! Has anyone learned anything particular to growing with these lights that you either should or should not do, as compared to growing with different lighting options?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

Not me but I can tell you I added a couple red suns over a current LED grow we were running and the buds really took off.


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> This is actually a good example of how a high peak doesn't use as much power as you might think if the output is at a narrow range of wavelengths. Given the percentages at the side, that tall green spike accounts for less than 10% of the bulb's spectral output despite being the highest peak.
> 
> This bulb has a total of 21% of its output in the least desirable range. It's not ideal but I personally think it's a pretty decent option - since we don't have an ideal.


I've been staring at this a little more.

As with many of the "base" bulbs we're looking at, it's essentially an enhanced white bulb with a spread of energy and an emphasis in the blue and red areas. Looking at it more simply:

26.5% Blue Light (400-490 nm)
21% Green Light (490-590 nm)
40.5% Red Light (590-700 nm)
12% UV/Infrared (including some UVB and UVC)

I'd like a better bulb (and I do like the Flora Sun's graph a little better), but that's not too shabby in my opinion. Also, with those percentages it's maybe not surprising that these types of bulbs look pretty white with a little pink. It's still a pretty different distribution from standard "white" bulbs.

What do others think about this?


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

I came across another older thread on THC Farmer where a guy is using some lights I don't think we've seen yet. Not quite sure what to make of these super-blocky graphs, but I guess the blue looks good:




They're Philips Primary Color lamps available from Advanced Technology Solutions, LLC (?) - link

Still no 660, naturally.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 14, 2011)

The plant I have under the colored T5's is starting to get a tad weird. The leaves are really dark green and starting to get wrinkled. Any idea why this might be? 
Here is the same strain under a 1000w HPS Hortilux to give an idea of what the leaves normally look like.


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## Calrt (Dec 14, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I've been staring at this a little more.
> 
> As with many of the "base" bulbs we're looking at, it's essentially an enhanced white bulb with a spread of energy and an emphasis in the blue and red areas. Looking at it more simply:
> 
> ...


I full agree and think this or the flora Sun is not a bad bulb to hit that 650nm range and cover some blue and a touch of green. It is really only about 20% wasted......and yes these should be almost white and the spectrum is filling in. The more colors the whiter it will be.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> Lucious, while yes it would "defeat the purpose" for any scientific testing comparing the two. i never was going for that, just wanted to see what t5 can do. I Liked the thread, vegged under only t5, using mostly the bulbs pr0f suggested with a couple changes that the guy at store recommended(ATI purple plus over fiji, saved 10 bucks on price, for similar range since there isn't graph for fiji anyway hard to say) and just before i switched to flower a friend gave me an old 400w hps he had gathering dust so he said i could have it, but recommended i run it for a month on a schedule to make sure it is still reliable. So I thought why not just add it to what I have. I could be way off but I don't see how it could hurt adding more light, still have the same amount of lumens of the same wavelengths coming from the t5, just with added lumens/wavelengths of the hps is my basic idea. I just wasn't sure that harm could be done be adding "too much" light so long as your temps where under control.
> 
> As far as trying other bulbs, I am going up to the aquarium shop(saltycritter) 45 minutes from me to talk more with the bulb guy about what i'm looking for. They are actually a pretty good place to order from, their website looks like it was made in 1995 by a kid and they are only "open" 3 days a week, but i'm kinda glad as it turns away a lot of people i'm sure, they never had a backup with the red suns or fiji's when everyone was trying to find a place that had them ready to ship and looking for alternatives. I'd recommend more people going to the store and finding someone who knows the bulbs, there was only 1 guy at this store, but he seemed pretty knowledgeable, more than me, about what i was looking for and suggesting bulbs to use. Plus most smaller businesses are willing to match online prices if you ask or at least come close.


The Fiji graph was posted back on like page 20 or so I think. It looked vastly different than the Purple Plus from what I recall.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> The plant I have under the colored T5's is starting to get a tad weird. The leaves are really dark green and starting to get wrinkled. Any idea why this might be?View attachment 1934884 View attachment 1934916
> Here is the same strain under a 1000w HPS Hortilux to give an idea of what the leaves normally look like.View attachment 1934886View attachment 1934917


How far are your lights from the top of the canopy and what lights are you running in the fixture?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 14, 2011)

Calrt said:


> I full agree and think this or the flora Sun is not a bad bulb to hit that 650nm range and cover some blue and a touch of green. It is really only about 20% wasted......and yes these should be almost white and the spectrum is filling in. The more colors the whiter it will be.


The Flora Suns are pink. They are identical to the ATI ProColors that are discontinued. I have them running side by side and there is almost no difference. I have already had 2 defective Flora Sun bulbs so watch out for that! The AquaMedic plant grow bulb is really close but it is not quite as pink.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 14, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> How far are your lights from the top of the canopy and what lights are you running in the fixture?


In the T5 fixture I have 2 Fiji Purple, 2 Red Sun, 2 ATI Blue Plus, 2 UVL Super Actinic. The fixture is about 20" from the canopy. I took the photo under white light to see the color.


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## Calrt (Dec 14, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> The Flora Suns are pink. They are identical to the ATI ProColors that are discontinued. I have them running side by side and there is almost no difference. I have already had 2 defective Flora Sun bulbs so watch out for that! The AquaMedic plant grow bulb is really close but it is not quite as pink.


Where did you get your Flora Suns from? Sucks about the defective ones!


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## okthanks2 (Dec 14, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Where did you get your Flora Suns from? Sucks about the defective ones!


from petco


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> In the T5 fixture I have 2 Fiji Purple, 2 Red Sun, 2 ATI Blue Plus, 2 UVL Super Actinic. The fixture is about 20" from the canopy. I took the photo under white light to see the color.


Well im no expert but maybe Professor or someone can chime in but it seems like thats a lot of Blue in there for Flowering or a lot of Red in there for Vegging. I personally keep my lights about 6" off the Canopy. Maybe they are too far? Who knows. 

Your leaves are Canoeing/Tacoing...i usually hear this is them defending themselves from too much light. I wouldn't worry about it if they aren't burning.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 14, 2011)

4 for $20.....how ya like that?


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## growbuddy1 (Dec 14, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 1101487View attachment 1101488View attachment 1101489View attachment 1101490View attachment 1101491
> So when i decided to grow i started with a 400W hps and MH conversion bulb. I put up my tent and it was problem after problem. With the generous help from the people here i decided to throw away my setup and start from scratch. I purchased the Quantum Badboy 8 lamp T5. I started with the standard 6500k bulbs with some success. I wanted to buy an LED light but didnt have the money. So... i was at my buddies house and he has a LARGE aquarium and he showed me his bulbs..it clicked.. corals need light too and his lights produced the EXACT spectrum corals need to live and are capable of penetrating 3'+ of water. well corals and plants are very similar as they use the EXACT same light spectrum. Digging deeper i found bulbs that produce 410-460nm and 620-660 nm light.. That is also Exactly what LEDs put out..now putting one plus one together i decided to do a small test.. i bought 2 2' t5 lights ATI AND UVL Blue plus and Super Actinic. Explosive growth followed. i couldent believe my eyes. I was told on 4 different forums that actinic bulbs DO NOT WORK FOR plants boy were they really wrong!. i ahve since gone 100% T5 with various bulbs producing only yhe light spectrum that plants need. As you can see my plants are doing AMAZING for being grown with Actinic bulbs.2 of my bulbs are missing as they were broken upon arrrival. I will be changing out some of the blue bulbs with the deep red ones i found for flowering..they produce ONLY 630-660nm light. no other spectrum so i get 100% PAR. top that with MH...now i know what your thinking these lights are not bright at all... well its not about lumens.the human eye response isView attachment 1101463photosynthetic is View attachment 1101468, so your eyes do not see ALL the light these bulbs output. hardcore believers will flame me but let the math and the facts be known.HPS BULBS View attachment 1101469 Anyone notice a pattern here???? Lumens are not the ending factor to bud growth or you could not grow with LED. my sample grow i netted 1oz on a plant with only 116w. If your still in disbelief consider this, chect the spectrum charts for your coveted 3000k bulbs and overlay it with your chlorophyll response charts.. youll notice MOST of the light these bulbs prodice is outside the chloraphyll A+B peaks... now place the spectrums of my lights and overlay them...100% match.. seems to me im doing something right?


That's awesome man! Props on taking it upon yourself to try something new even with the haters! That looks nice... are you getting high temps off those lights or no?


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## AltarNation (Dec 14, 2011)

FYI guys, I think it would really behoove us all to find a subsitute for the UVL Red Sun/Life bulb. So far I have had to replace one which died completely... a second one is starting to discolor, going towards purple and less red... luckily I already had them send out another replacement for the one that was going funny... but get this... the one they already replaced (the second one, the replacement) is down to like 50% intensity.  So I guess I'll replace THAT one with the third replacement bulb instead of the off-color one...

Really would like to find alternatives to Red Suns.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 14, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> The plant I have under the colored T5's is starting to get a tad weird. The leaves are really dark green and starting to get wrinkled. Any idea why this might be?View attachment 1934884 View attachment 1934916



Yes...... thats the way the leaves look under this light!
I would say it's from all the available P.A.R. light.
Super healthy looking to me!


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> The plant I have under the colored T5's is starting to get a tad weird. The leaves are really dark green and starting to get wrinkled. Any idea why this might be?View attachment 1934884 View attachment 1934916
> Here is the same strain under a 1000w HPS Hortilux to give an idea of what the leaves normally look like.View attachment 1934886View attachment 1934917


Are you letting your water sit out for a day or so uncovered? If so that does get rid of chlorine. But the water evaporates causing everything still in the water to become more concentrate. That causes wrinkled leaves. It's better to aerate and cover. Or it could be ph, or fluctuations in temp and humidity,


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## Calrt (Dec 14, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> FYI guys, I think it would really behoove us all to find a subsitute for the UVL Red Sun/Life bulb. So far I have had to replace one which died completely... a second one is starting to discolor, going towards purple and less red... luckily I already had them send out another replacement for the one that was going funny... but get this... the one they already replaced (the second one, the replacement) is down to like 50% intensity.  So I guess I'll replace THAT one with the third replacement bulb instead of the off-color one...
> 
> Really would like to find alternatives to Red Suns.


Thats not good! With or without internal reflectors? I am running 3 without and they are about 2 weeks in.....I have heard from a vendor that the UVLs are not great lights....


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> The Fiji graph was posted back on like page 20 or so I think. It looked vastly different than the Purple Plus from what I recall.


That graph is for the nlite PURple and is mislabeled. There is no graph for the Fiji.

I hope nobody gets tired of reading that, I feel like it's important to keep reiterating so that we don't perpetuate the misinformation.



Calrt said:


> Where did you get your Flora Suns from? Sucks about the defective ones!



If you want to order online, I recommend http://www.bigalspets.com/. Zoo Med bulbs are only $10 each with free shipping at $75. 



Lucius Vorenus said:


> 4 for $20.....how ya like that?
> 
> View attachment 1935095


What is that? It's a T5? Funky looking graph, but lots of red! It would be nice if it had the wavelengths printed.


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> FYI guys, I think it would really behoove us all to find a subsitute for the UVL Red Sun/Life bulb. So far I have had to replace one which died completely... a second one is starting to discolor, going towards purple and less red... luckily I already had them send out another replacement for the one that was going funny... but get this... the one they already replaced (the second one, the replacement) is down to like 50% intensity.  So I guess I'll replace THAT one with the third replacement bulb instead of the off-color one...
> 
> Really would like to find alternatives to Red Suns.



Did you see the graphs I posted two pages back (last post on p.159)? There's a red one.


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## growbuddy1 (Dec 14, 2011)

So if I wanted to have a similar setup to the ordinal posts, which exact bulbs would I need? Could someone tell me what those are, I have a bulb guy from work so I just need the type / what they are, not where to buy them. I'm thinking about doing this idea with an LED hybrid setup.


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## growbuddy1 (Dec 14, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> i purchased the following...
> UVL Red sun 630nm
> UVL 454nm
> UVL Super Actinic peaks at 420nm
> ...


Nevermind! Found it.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 14, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> FYI guys, I think it would really behoove us all to find a subsitute for the UVL Red Sun/Life bulb. So far I have had to replace one which died completely... a second one is starting to discolor, going towards purple and less red... luckily I already had them send out another replacement for the one that was going funny... but get this... the one they already replaced (the second one, the replacement) is down to like 50% intensity.  So I guess I'll replace THAT one with the third replacement bulb instead of the off-color one...
> 
> Really would like to find alternatives to Red Suns.



 I just ordered 4 of em! they come tomorrow. Other than 3000k and my coral/red waves they will be the only red strong tubes I will have. I did just get another Coral Wave and Reef Wave today  get my 4 red suns tomorrow then a 8x48" fixture to swap out for my 4x48" unit Im vegging with now. I hope the Red Suns hold up for me, I dont have any other UVL tubes to compare to, I know they're expensive as hell, but my cheap $10 WavePoints are holding up well. Anyone have a supplier for nLites PURple? cant find em anywhere w/ Google shopping/search. They have that elusive 660 spike


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> I just ordered 4 of em! they come tomorrow. Other than 3000k and my coral/red waves they will be the only red strong tubes I will have. I did just get another Coral Wave and Reef Wave today  get my 4 red suns tomorrow then a 8x48" fixture to swap out for my 4x48" unit Im vegging with now. I hope the Red Suns hold up for me, I dont have any other UVL tubes to compare to, I know they're expensive as hell, but my cheap $10 WavePoints are holding up well. Anyone have a supplier for nLites PURple? cant find em anywhere w/ Google shopping/search. They have that elusive 660 spike


I should have said in my last post, the nlite PURple is no longer available.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 14, 2011)

Im reluctant to invest in Fiji Purples... without any verified SPD chart for em I wont risk my money when Coral waves look plenty purple but are primarily blue except for a far red (+700nm) spike which gives the purple tinge to an otherwise blue bulb. 

 Coral Wave is 3rd bulb up (bottom fixture), red/color wave is below it (much more pink, spikes at 610 w 547green spike). Top fixture has 2 6500k's and a Reef Wave Super Actinic 03 420 and Blue Wave SuperBlue actinic 460 (actually spikes at 436 but has a good wide blue streak)

Fiji's could be the same, who knows where the red spike is? I know that the 660nm phosphor is the most expensive... (green is cheapest, go figure) I do like the Coral Wave bulb's far red spike though as it helps to trigger the flowering response, but Ill have to rely on Red Sun's/3000k's/hort400wHPS for a complete blend of reds in my flowering box. Im adding 2 red suns to flower, and 2 to veg as Im lacking almost any red in my veg box.


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> FYI guys, I think it would really behoove us all to find a subsitute for the UVL Red Sun/Life bulb. So far I have had to replace one which died completely... a second one is starting to discolor, going towards purple and less red... luckily I already had them send out another replacement for the one that was going funny... but get this... the one they already replaced (the second one, the replacement) is down to like 50% intensity.  So I guess I'll replace THAT one with the third replacement bulb instead of the off-color one...
> 
> Really would like to find alternatives to Red Suns.


I have been using my redsuns for 16 weeks now and they are still going strong. Never had any problems. Btw you have to run them by themselves to see how they truly appear in color. When they sit next to a different bulb they appear a different color or shade. For example. The fiji looks very purple. When placed next to a redsun it looks more blue. The redsun is the only one I have come across with that much red at that nm and with no other wasted spectrums. I wouldn't believe anything a vendor or salesman at a store says. They usually talk out their ass and don't know the first thing of how light really works. I have had plenty experience. With dumbass salesman at aquarium shops and hydro shops that give the worst advice. I almost think that it's on purpose. So you will come back and spend more money when their advice backfired


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 14, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I should have said in my last post, the nlite PURple is no longer available.


I figured as much, just like the ATI pro color. Not enough demand to justify the cost of producing/R&D for the 660nm phosphors. nLites website does have a TON of useful info related to PAR specific growing as well as other growing tips, last updated '08 


http://www.nlites.co.uk/photoponics.htm#nanometric scroll to the top and follow the links around, lots of good info


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 14, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I have been using my redsuns for 16 weeks now and they are still going strong. Never had any problems. Btw you have to run them by themselves to see how they truly appear in color. When they sit next to a different bulb they appear a different color or shade. For example. The fiji looks very purple. When placed next to a redsun it looks more blue. The redsun is the only one I have come across with that much red at that nm and with no other wasted spectrums. I wouldnt believe anything a vendor or salesamn at a store says. They usually talk out their ass and dont know the first thing of how light really works. I hav had plenty experience. With dumbass salesman at aquarium shops and hydro shops that give the worst advice. I almost think that its on purpose. So you will come back ajd spend more money when their advice backfired



+Rep. Im sure they do! This asshole kid at the SOGhydro tried to explain why NOT to use Blackstrap molasses and why I SHOULD use Raw Sweet lol. uh, yeah cuz you sell Sweet for more than the cost of a human kidney. what a dick.

Same here, I cant find anything else with that much Red and very little else, and Im very Blue strong right now as my 8x48" t5 will come Friday w 4 10000k's and 4 460nm Actinics, to add to the reef/blue waves I already have. and almost every other bulb has plenty of blue in it already, so I want something STRONG in red for flowering.


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## cabbagesXradia (Dec 14, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I have been using my redsuns for 16 weeks now and they are still going strong. Never had any problems. Btw you have to run them by themselves to see how they truly appear in color. When they sit next to a different bulb they appear a different color or shade. For example. The fiji looks very purple. When placed next to a redsun it looks more blue. The redsun is the only one I have come across with that much red at that nm and with no other wasted spectrums. I wouldn't believe anything a vendor or salesman at a store says. They usually talk out their ass and don't know the first thing of how light really works. I have had plenty experience. With dumbass salesman at aquarium shops and hydro shops that give the worst advice. I almost think that it's on purpose. So you will come back and spend more money when their advice backfired


My red suns are going strong , no probs for a while now. Just some bad luck


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I came across another older thread on THC Farmer where a guy is using some lights I don't think we've seen yet. Not quite sure what to make of these super-blocky graphs, but I guess the blue looks good:
> 
> View attachment 1935481
> 
> ...


I'm bumping this because it seems like nobody saw it and the topic of *Red Sun alternatives* is coming up.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 14, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I came across another older thread on THC Farmer where a guy is using some lights I don't think we've seen yet. Not quite sure what to make of these super-blocky graphs, but I guess the blue looks good:
> 
> View attachment 1934676
> View attachment 1934680
> ...


meh, the blue heavy bulb seems like your typical and widely available actinic of course, and the red heavier bulb seems like it might be OK due to the lack of green, and the not so common 700nm spike, but the 610nm red spike is available in almost every bulb on the market with red in it. Its the standard. It is nice that it's weighted towards the red side, and the spike is kinda wide, but the Red Sun's SPD is gonna match with the PAR curve more. It will still work though, and might be a pretty good choice if its cheap. It would prob appear to be like a pinkish 3000k or a little more red than a coral wave... my guess


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I'm bumping this because it seems like nobody saw it and the topic of *Red Sun alternatives* is coming up.


i saw it and i went to the link. for $22 I'd rather use UVL and ATI . they are $2 cheaper 

the blue one has wasted light between 480nm and 560nm and no uv-a or uv-b the UVL super actinic is $19.95 at my local aquarium shop. the redsun is too


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## organicbynature (Dec 14, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> meh, the blue heavy bulb seems like your typical and widely available actinic of course, and the red heavier bulb seems like it might be OK due to the lack of green, and the not so common 700nm spike, but the 610nm red spike is available in almost every bulb on the market with red in it. Its the standard. It is nice that it's weighted towards the red side, and the spike is kinda wide, but the Red Sun's SPD is gonna match with the PAR curve more. It will still work though, and might be a pretty good choice if its cheap. It would prob appear to be like a pinkish 3000k or a little more red than a coral wave... my guess


These are what they look like:
 

Also, the blue is not like a super actinic. If you look again, it's got the complete blue spectrum. Kind of like a super actinic and a 454 combined. I'm not saying that's preferable, but it's at least interesting.

What available (54w) red bulb has a better graph than this red bulb besides for the Red Sun (which either has an inaccurate graph itself or does not peak at 630 like they say)? I don't know, look's pretty red to me. Also, Philips is a good brand. It sounds like some of you are having trouble with your UVLs...


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## noptical (Dec 14, 2011)

So I've been following this thread closely and have a few questions guys in here say that with an 8 bulb t5 they are making yields that are on comparrison with a 1k hps. I wanna know with a 16bulb t5 give say 6 week veg time and the normal 60 days of flower for my strain what type of yield would i be looking at with this setup im trying to make sure this settup is right for me to justify the money for the badboy instead of a 1k hps


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 15, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> These are what they look like:
> View attachment 1935557
> 
> Also, the blue is not like a super actinic. If you look again, it's got the complete blue spectrum. Kind of like a super actinic and a 454 combined. I'm not saying that's preferable, but it's at least interesting.
> ...


My Red Suns are on their way by UPS tomorrow, from pics Ive seen I like their red. But damn that does look a nice even red, going strictly from the SPD the Red Sun shows the 630nm so... 

If I had a 16 bulb or two 8 bulbs in flower I may sprinkle a few into the mix since they are pretty focused in the red end without much blue. 

Ill give it to you, they'd be a good alternative to Red Suns if they go under. good call.


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## falcon223 (Dec 15, 2011)




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## falcon223 (Dec 15, 2011)

http://www.globeaqua.com/rental_par_meter.html
Here is a PAR meter for rent.


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## falcon223 (Dec 15, 2011)

Full Spectrum Lamps Save $10 Off Orders of $75 or More When You Use Promo Code TY1231
www.FullSpectrumSolutions.com


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## falcon223 (Dec 15, 2011)

I dont know if we can trust these PAR grafs. But it is all we have to go on.


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## falcon223 (Dec 15, 2011)

These PAR meters don't show a Graff, but only light intensity. You can watch someone use it on youtub. It is in aquarium lights.


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## growbuddy1 (Dec 15, 2011)

Anyone know if they make these bulbs in smaller sizes? Like half as long or maybe even shorter..?

This is my current project (after seeing this thread and wanting a full LED setup I decided to make a hybrid between the two: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/495316-new-project-grow-room-led.html


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

growbuddy1 said:


> Anyone know if they make these bulbs in smaller sizes? Like half as long or maybe even shorter..?
> 
> This is my current project (after seeing this thread and wanting a full LED setup I decided to make a hybrid between the two: https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/495316-new-project-grow-room-led.html


They make them in 24 in, 36 in, 48 in, 60 in.


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

noptical said:


> So I've been following this thread closely and have a few questions guys in here say that with an 8 bulb t5 they are making yields that are on comparrison with a 1k hps. I wanna know with a 16bulb t5 give say 6 week veg time and the normal 60 days of flower for my strain what type of yield would i be looking at with this setup im trying to make sure this settup is right for me to justify the money for the badboy instead of a 1k hps



I dont know your strain or your environment. So I can't really say. From my strains the yield is pretty much the same. Slightly more under the t5. Because they are denser under the t5. Much much better quality too. Right now I have 1 batch, half under a 1k and the other half under the t5. All at 4 weeks and the ones under the t5 are just a little bit bigger and way more frosty. Im using an 8 bulb too.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 15, 2011)

Poor mans 3000k bulb. Maybe someone can scroung up a spectrum for it by contacting manufacturer or something

http://www.lightbulbsurplus.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1131&cPath=83


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## Redoctober (Dec 15, 2011)

hyroot said:


> a lot of them say that. but its fine.


 Cool, thanks, I figured as much  



UnderCurrentDWC said:


> What hyroot said! Another way to determine if it's the correct bulb would be to look for it saying 54w


 Good tip thanks UnderCurrent  btw that's my favorite Chappelle episode: "How about you and your crew vs. me and the Revolution!"


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## Redoctober (Dec 15, 2011)

So I finally put together my bulb arrangement for flower and veg and I wanted to run it by you guys. I like the look of the Flora Sun as a base bulb for flower, plus it has some nice UVB and UVA spikes. Otherwise it's fairly similar to the Aquamedic and supposed Fiji Purple graph. I do have a Fiji in there for good measure but I decided to try 2 Flora Suns instead of all 3 Fiji's. The Coral Wave is good for the actinic side but it has that nice far red spike for flower as well. 
Here goes: 

8 bulb flower arrangement 

Blueprint: \Base/~\Red/~\Blue/~\Base/~\Red/~\Blue/~\Base/~\Red/ 

\Flora Sun/~\RedSun/~\CoralWave/~\Fiji/~\RedSun/~\CoralWave/~\FloraSun/~\RedSun/ 



4 bulb veg arrangement: 

\Fiji/~\RedSun/~\UVLSuperActinic/~\AquamedicPlantGrow/


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> So I finally put together my bulb arrangement for flower and veg and I wanted to run it by you guys. I like the look of the Flora Sun as a base bulb for flower, plus it has some nice UVB and UVA spikes. Otherwise it's fairly similar to the Aquamedic and supposed Fiji Purple graph. I do have a Fiji in there for good measure but I decided to try 2 Flora Suns instead of all 3 Fiji's. The Coral Wave is good for the actinic side but it has that nice far red spike for flower as well.
> Here goes:
> 
> 8 bulb flower arrangement
> ...



Nice I have mine in a different order making it more symetrical to create an even spectrum blend.

Fiji / redsun / coral wave / redsun / fiji / coral wave / redsun / fiji. 

Might swap the center fiji for a redsun. But then ill have 2 redsuns right next to each other and not sure if I want to do that.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 15, 2011)

What are you guys using the Coral Waves in place of?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 15, 2011)

Under a 4 bulb t5, 2 red suns, 2 generic Daylight.

The plant on the left is the T5. The one to the right was grown under 240 watt Blackstar (never again). Both plants 7 weeks. 

T5 can def do the trick. We added the T5 to this plant at week 4.5 of bloom because the Blackstar wasn't doing shit. We will now be doing our first large grow using all T5 and will be mixing the spectrum up even a bit better adding in the Fuji Purps and another 3000k Uship bulb that is heavy orange and into the red.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 15, 2011)

Any of you tried the Plantmax or AgroMax 3000k bulbs or find a Spectral Graph for it? They are very cheap on eBay!


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## AltarNation (Dec 15, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I have been using my redsuns for 16 weeks now and they are still going strong. Never had any problems. Btw you have to run them by themselves to see how they truly appear in color. When they sit next to a different bulb they appear a different color or shade. For example. The fiji looks very purple. When placed next to a redsun it looks more blue. The redsun is the only one I have come across with that much red at that nm and with no other wasted spectrums. I wouldn't believe anything a vendor or salesman at a store says. They usually talk out their ass and don't know the first thing of how light really works. I have had plenty experience. With dumbass salesman at aquarium shops and hydro shops that give the worst advice. I almost think that it's on purpose. So you will come back and spend more money when their advice backfired


Right, well... colors being off is one thing, but I've had two bulbs fail in a row now. I think their mfr quality is questionable at the moment, as the vendor told me that several people had their UVL Red Lifes fail from the same batch. Then they replaced that one with another one that is failing.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 15, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Any of you tried the Plantmax or AgroMax 3000k bulbs or find a Spectral Graph for it? They are very cheap on eBay!


I have 4 plantmax 3000k's before I opened my eyes to the PAR specific bulbs. They work fine for me, and are ok to add into the blend for flower if you have enough bulbs. Tomorrow I will have two 4 bulb t5's in my flower box to supplement my 400w hps cool tube. I only have one RedWave so I will put a 3000k opposite it, otherwise I have equal on either side... super blue, red sun, coral wave, then red wave/3000k... all facing either other with my babies sandwiched between.

no graph for the 3000k's, I was going based on a general SPD for GE 2700k cfl's, assuming they would be relatively similar... View attachment 1936589, that is a wide ass red streak (but heavy orange not red), still accurate???


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 15, 2011)

from UCDWC"




"


LMFAO!!! is that jon jones? FATALITY!! he didnt do it right though, he didnt fully remove that cracka ass cracka's head and spine from his body though...epic fail I guess then?


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Under a 4 bulb t5, 2 red suns, 2 generic Daylight.
> 
> The plant on the left is the T5. The one to the right was grown under 240 watt Blackstar (never again). Both plants 7 weeks.
> 
> ...


She's puurrddy


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What are you guys using the Coral Waves in place of?


In th blue position. In place of the super actinic and 454


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## falcon223 (Dec 15, 2011)

I need help with the watt ratting on the 4 foot 8 bulb t5 fixture. Is it 430 watts give or take. Or is it 500 watts give or take ? 
Some places say 430 and some say 515. I am about to pull the trigger on a 8 bulb light.


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## Myles117 (Dec 15, 2011)

around 430 

about 54 watts per bulb


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I need help with the watt ratting on the 4 foot 8 bulb t5 fixture. Is it 430 watts give or take. Or is it 500 watts give or take ?
> Some places say 430 and some say 515. I am about to pull the trigger on a 8 bulb light.


With 54 watt bulbs it puts out 432 watts of lights. It draws 488 watts of power. You can put .higher wattage bulbs in it too. But they only mke a few 96 watt bulbs


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## okthanks2 (Dec 15, 2011)

My hydro plant is totally all wrinkled up now. Looks like a raisin.....DEFINATELY not healthy, but I know now that it isn't being caused from the lights. I have the plant under a CMH and it is still doing the same weird shit. It must be an over-fertilization problem. Strange as it is on a 50% nute!


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> My hydro plant is totally all wrinkled up now. Looks like a raisin.....DEFINATELY not healthy, but I know now that it isn't being caused from the lights. I have the plant under a CMH and it is still doing the same weird shit. It must be an over-fertilization problem. Strange as it is on a 50% nute!



Are the tips of the leaves a reddish brown color? If so that's a sign of over feeding. It sounds like ph or quality of water issues. Add some dolomite lime to you nute mix. its $3. It's a ph buffer or soil sweetener, also has mag and calcium in it too.


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2011)

final
 



Next new batch at 4weeks under 1k eye hortilux and t5 8 bulb 3 fiji / 3 redsuns / 2 coral waves



veg under 6 bulb. 1 ati aquablue special and 5 6500 k


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 15, 2011)

^im confused is that 3 different grows or all the same grow? They all seem to have different lighting.


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## okthanks2 (Dec 16, 2011)

Hyroot, do you have the 1K and the T5 lights right next to each other in the same room? Or are the plants and lights in separate rooms?


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## hyroot (Dec 16, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> Hyroot, do you have the 1K and the T5 lights right next to each other in the same room? Or are the plants and lights in separate rooms?


Same room. the 1k has only been on for 2 weeks. The girls got too big to fit under the T5 alone. 

The small veg ones are in another room.


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## Redoctober (Dec 16, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Nice I have mine in a different order making it more symetrical to create an even spectrum blend. Fiji / redsun / coral wave / redsun / fiji / coral wave / redsun / fiji. Might swap the center fiji for a redsun. But then ill have 2 redsuns right next to each other and not sure if I want to do that.


 Oh good call! I was thinking that I should probably arrange it so that I have a base bulb at either end. Those closeup pics of your buds look like some High Times shots! T5 really does make for some serious quality. Which strain was that again? Your room looks great! I don't think it really skews the experiment much having an HPS next to the T5 because as you get further than 3 feet away from the HPS, it's impact is almost negligible due to the inverse square law. 

P.S. best avatar I've ever seen  That's one of my all time favorites! Ye intruders beware...crushing death and grief...soaked with blood...of the trespassing thief!


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## Redoctober (Dec 16, 2011)

okthanks2, not much consolation for ya but it is kind of good to know it isn't the lights. I had plants do something similar to me one time and it turned out to be humidity related. The leaves folded up along the central vein and also turned sideways. I don't think that that's what you've got going on, but if you've absolutely ruled out everything else, it may be something different to look at.


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## hyroot (Dec 16, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Oh good call! I was thinking that I should probably arrange it so that I have a base bulb at either end. Those closeup pics of your buds look like some High Times shots! T5 really does make for some serious quality. Which strain was that again? Your room looks great! I don't think it really skews the experiment much having an HPS next to the T5 because as you get further than 3 feet away from the HPS, it's impact is almost negligible due to the inverse square law.
> 
> P.S. best avatar I've ever seen  That's one of my all time favorites! Ye intruders beware...crushing death and grief...soaked with blood...of the trespassing thief!



Thanks. There is a noticable difference between the girls under both lights. The t5 buds are slightly bigger and more frosty. The leaves are darker an more perky. Less stretching . Yet most are same height and the ones under the 1k stretched a little so the t5 ones have more bud sites. A little light from each bleeds into.each side but still there is difference.


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## PetFlora (Dec 16, 2011)

In the future, please keep your lame ass racist remarks to your stupid self



Undercover Cop said:


> from UCDWC"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## PetFlora (Dec 16, 2011)

_My take on mj/lighting sales people is they have very little practical experience in growing, let alone growing mj. As with all purchases, the less knowledgeable I am, the more money I waste, not just in purchases, but 3-6 months later when my grow is less than it would have been. I have blown way more $$$ on nutes than lights, though_.



hyroot said:


> I have been using my redsuns for 16 weeks now and they are still going strong. Never had any problems. Btw you have to run them by themselves to see how they truly appear in color. When they sit next to a different bulb they appear a different color or shade. For example. The fiji looks very purple. When placed next to a redsun it looks more blue. The redsun is the only one I have come across with that much red at that nm and with no other wasted spectrums. I wouldn't believe anything a vendor or salesman at a store says. They usually talk out their ass and don't know the first thing of how light really works. I have had plenty experience. With dumbass salesman at aquarium shops and hydro shops that give the worst advice. I almost think that it's on purpose. So you will come back and spend more money when their advice backfired


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## PetFlora (Dec 16, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> My hydro plant is totally all wrinkled up now. Looks like a raisin.....DEFINATELY not healthy, but I know now that it isn't being caused from the lights. I have the plant under a CMH and it is still doing the same weird shit. It must be an over-fertilization problem. Strange as it is on a 50% nute!


A lot of nute calculators cannot be trusted, including Dutch Masters own on their site. It seems their Hanna chart is the wrong chart. *Hanna *is 1 EC = 500 ppm, but when I mix to their amounts, it is always ~40% higher. That alone can either cause nute lockout (if caught soon enough, salvageable) or outright death.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 16, 2011)

BTW guys on these new T5 grows we have totally abandoned all Nute regimens and went straight to a dry Maxibloom ONLY mix.

I will never go back to Part A, b, add this add that crap again. Straight up, 1tsp of Maxibloom per gallon throughout the plants entire life. Getting as good of grows as I have with Fox Farms, GH and Advanced. Not to mention saving a SHITLOAD of money.

2.2lb for $15!


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 16, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> In the future, please keep your lame ass racist remarks to your stupid self


Lol yeah thx for bumping it so we could all see that clip again, soo funny.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 16, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> BTW guys on these new T5 grows we have totally abandoned all Nute regimens and went straight to a dry Maxibloom ONLY mix.
> 
> I will never go back to Part A, b, add this add that crap again. Straight up, 1tsp of Maxibloom per gallon throughout the plants entire life. Getting as good of grows as I have with Fox Farms, GH and Advanced. Not to mention saving a SHITLOAD of money.
> 
> ...


Ive been using GH flora 3 part, with ok results... I used to make my own mix from MG epsom ST etc and was considering it again... Does maxibloom have all the mirconutes also? Special instructions for diff stages? It'd be nice to have something so easy and cheap. 
Reason for your switch? Do you think the nutrient requirements are that different using T5s? (I'm sure they prob transpire less due to less intense light/heat than HID)
thx


and are you referring/suggesting this for hydro or soil?


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## falcon223 (Dec 16, 2011)

Well I dropped the hammer today. Got this light coming. I hope I did good. *Delivery estimate: *Dec. 22, 2011 - Dec. 28, 2011 
[FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]*1*[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]*"New Wave 48 T5 HO Fluorescent Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamp"*
$134.99
In Stock
Sold by: Hydro Galaxy [/SIZE][/FONT]


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## hyroot (Dec 16, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> BTW guys on these new T5 grows we have totally abandoned all Nute regimens and went straight to a dry Maxibloom ONLY mix.
> 
> I will never go back to Part A, b, add this add that crap again. Straight up, 1tsp of Maxibloom per gallon throughout the plants entire life. Getting as good of grows as I have with Fox Farms, GH and Advanced. Not to mention saving a SHITLOAD of money.
> 
> ...



Try doing guano teas. Its a little more work. Its much cheaper than buying bottled nutes. Thats all I feed my girls and thy love it. Its completely organic and it is very hard to over feed. I spend around $50 every 2 months on my teas


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## falcon223 (Dec 16, 2011)

hyroot, can you tell us witch guano you use and where to get it . And all the prep you do to get your teas. Thanks. 


I steel haven't found a good feeding plan.


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## Calrt (Dec 16, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Well I dropped the hammer today. Got this light coming. I hope I did good. *Delivery estimate: *Dec. 22, 2011 - Dec. 28, 2011
> [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]*1*[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]*"New Wave 48 T5 HO Fluorescent Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamp"*
> $134.99
> In Stock
> Sold by: Hydro Galaxy [/SIZE][/FONT]


Great price!


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## hyroot (Dec 16, 2011)

*any hydro shop or nursery carries all this and even amazon

Tea recipe for 5 gal*
* 

get a 5 gal bucket , dual air pump, tubing , stocking or paint strainer, and 2 air stones*

*Usually I aerate the water for a day or 2 then I add molasses ( 1 tbsp per gal ) and aerate for another hour. The molasses neutralizes the chlorine and chloramine. 

Then I add sun leaves guano 
VEG ......................1/2 cup peruvian seabird and 1/2 mexican bat. 
EARLY FLOWER...... 1/3 cup peruvian seabird and 2/3 cup jamaican bat,
LATE FLOWER ........1/3 cup peruvian seabird and 2/3 cup indonesian bat. 

1/2 cup ancient forest humus (used to use ewc ) 
1/2 cup grow more dolomite lime

dr. earth seaweed concentrate 4 tsp for veg and 6 - 8 tsp for flower

aerate for another day and half or when foam is at its peak
feed full strength no diluting

A few times when I've been out of stuff and not a lot of money, I used earth juice rainbow mix grow 5-5-2 and bloom 0-9-2 and primal harvest 0-12-1 and aerate that at same ratios. Everything else is already in it. When I have used that I actually saw a lot more crystals. Something in the earth juice seems to combat PM too. I add dr. earth seaweed and dolomite lime to that too. The earth juice foams up faster too because its in powder form so it breaks down faster


CLONES: 2 red party cups of VEG TEA =4 cups, 1 red party cup of aerated water = 2 cups. then pour into tray.


*


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## hyroot (Dec 16, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Well I dropped the hammer today. Got this light coming. I hope I did good. *Delivery estimate: *Dec. 22, 2011 - Dec. 28, 2011
> *1*[SIZE=-1]*"New Wave 48 T5 HO Fluorescent Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamp"*
> $134.99
> In Stock
> Sold by: Hydro Galaxy [/SIZE]


Let us know how that goes. That is an awesome deal. I'm probably going to grab one too


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## Redoctober (Dec 16, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Well I dropped the hammer today. Got this light coming. I hope I did good. *Delivery estimate: *Dec. 22, 2011 - Dec. 28, 2011
> [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]*1*[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]*"New Wave 48 T5 HO Fluorescent Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamp"* $134.99 In Stock Sold by: Hydro Galaxy [/SIZE][/FONT]


 Are you sure you bought the one you think you bought? 
The 4' 8 lamp New Wave fixture is listed on Hydro Galaxy's website for $291.56. http://www.hydrogalaxy.com/categories/growing-lights/flourescent-lights.html?sort=featured&page=4
Did you mean that you bought a 2' 8 lamp? 
Even that one is listed at $168.20


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 16, 2011)

Ok so a few days ago I commented on a post about how impressed I was with the growth I was seeing, tight internode distance and having super short squatty bushes....
only 5" tall!


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 16, 2011)

So I got my 8 bulb fixture yesterday and after my Red Suns were delivered today, I shuffled around some bulbs and peppered in the red suns... tada!

  <-- will be used for vegging, good mix heavy in blues. from left to right... 1/super blue wave 460, 2/6500k, 3/red sun, 4/reef wave 420, 5/super blue wave 460, 6/red sun, 7/6500k, 8/reef wave 420. 

with 4 switches you can select every other bulb or groups of two 
   
    


Here's all 3 of my fixtures, the 8 bulb for vegging and the two 4 bulbs for flower, to use as side lighting. You'll notice the 4 bulb units have individual reflectors so the bulb colors are much more vivid and dont bleed into each other like they do in the 8 bulb unit which has a reflector for every 2. I have a Radiion 48 but I think the BadBoys are the same way (the 4 bulb units are Radiion 44's, w individual reflectors.) I think that three 4 bulb units ($100 ea. = $300 for 12 bulbs total) would be a better choice than two 8 bulb units ($150ea =$300 for 16 bulbs) there would prob be slightly less heat and 216 fewer watts used for about the same light spread/coverage area. I think the 8 bulb unit's reflectors cause wasted light from bulbs shining into each other and not a reflector. The tubes will absorb and waste some of the emitted light from other bulbs if they shine on each other. point is, you can see from the brightness side by side, that the 4 bulb units use the light more effectively, IMHO. blah blah blah heres more pics 

 

 <-- for flowering #1... Super Blue Wave 460, UVL Red Sun, Coral Wave, 3000k bloom

 <-- for flowering #2... Super Blue Wave 460, UVL Red Sun, Coral Wave, Red Wave


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Are you sure you bought the one you think you bought?
> The 4' 8 lamp New Wave fixture is listed on Hydro Galaxy's website for $291.56. http://www.hydrogalaxy.com/categories/growing-lights/flourescent-lights.html?sort=featured&page=4
> Did you mean that you bought a 2' 8 lamp?
> Even that one is listed at $168.20


 did you go to the link he put up? its a holiday deal through amazon. keep it hush hush so they don't sell out


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> So I got my 8 bulb fixture yesterday and after my Red Suns were delivered today, I shuffled around some bulbs and peppered in the red suns... tada!
> 
> View attachment 1939244 View attachment 1939245 <-- will be used for vegging, good mix heavy in blues. from left to right... 1/super blue wave 460, 2/6500k, 3/red sun, 4/reef wave 420, 5/super blue wave 460, 6/red sun, 7/6500k, 8/reef wave 420.
> 
> ...




what do you think about the radiion? i saw those on ebay and did a google search for the company and couldn't find a thing on them. i ended up finding someone on there selling 6 bulb hydrofarms for 120.


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## Redoctober (Dec 17, 2011)

hyroot said:


> did you go to the link he put up? its a holiday deal through amazon. keep it hush hush so they don't sell out


 Shit! Never Mind...I'm just a simpleton. I didn't even see that the Hydro Galaxy was an active link so I went to their web page instead. 

Sorry falcon, ignore my stupid post. But well done on getting that deal  That's quite a snag!


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## Redoctober (Dec 17, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> Ok so a few days ago I commented on a post about how impressed I was with the growth I was seeing, tight internode distance and having super short squatty bushes.... only 5" tall! View attachment 1939236 View attachment 1939239 View attachment 1939240 View attachment 1939241 View attachment 1939242


 WOW! I've never seen anything like that. Amazing. Was that done with the blue wave, reef wave, 6500, and red sun?
I've always wanted to have short dense plants like that. With such tight internodes, you can imagine what the bud formation will be like!


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## falcon223 (Dec 17, 2011)

Those plants look great.
I got the light at amazon, I hope they got it right. I just cant pass that deal by.
I may get anther one.


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## Redoctober (Dec 17, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Those plants look great. I got the light at amazon, I hope they got it right. I just cant pass that deal by. I may get anther one.


 Yeah I just found what you were talking about. I wish I saw that 4 days ago before I before I paid $280 for mine lol. That's $150 off. How long is that deal going for?


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## PetFlora (Dec 17, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> WOW! I've never seen anything like that. Amazing. Was that done with the blue wave, reef wave, 6500, and red sun?
> I've always wanted to have short dense plants like that. With such tight internodes, you can imagine what the bud formation will be like!


I actually had the same type of tight node spacing using a Quantum BB (8 bulb) + 8 Quantum 6500s, which I already owned prior to finding Pr0fs thread. Now (for veg) I mix them with UVL Aqua Suns & ATI Special Actinics + one Coral Wave


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## Redoctober (Dec 17, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I actually had the same type of tight node spacing using a Quantum BB (8 bulb) + 8 Quantum 6500s, which I already owned prior to finding Pr0fs thread. Now (for veg) I mix them with UVL Aqua Suns & ATI Special Actinics + one Coral Wave


 Is it possible to use the T5 spectrum (actinic side) to keep the nodes that tight during flower, and prevent the plants from stretching like crazy? My plants always run away on me in flower and I'd like them to stay more squat.


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## AltarNation (Dec 17, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Well I dropped the hammer today. Got this light coming. I hope I did good. *Delivery estimate: *Dec. 22, 2011 - Dec. 28, 2011
> [FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica]*1*[/FONT][FONT=verdana,arial,helvetica][SIZE=-1]*"New Wave 48 T5 HO Fluorescent Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamp"* $134.99 In Stock Sold by: Hydro Galaxy [/SIZE][/FONT]


 That looks sweet man, and it's a lot cheaper than I paid for my crap... I think you could easily plexiglass the bottom and make a cooltube design...


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## MurshDawg (Dec 17, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Is it possible to use the T5 spectrum (actinic side) to keep the nodes that tight during flower, and prevent the plants from stretching like crazy? My plants always run away on me in flower and I'd like them to stay more squat.


It's been my experience that most t5 lighting will promote tighter internodal spacing.


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## falcon223 (Dec 17, 2011)

I need a source for flowering bulbs. If anyone has a good link I would appreciate it. 
I think 2 red suns, and 2 Fiji purple, and 1 coral wave, and 67000K full spectrum. Need 2 more.


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## Calrt (Dec 17, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I need a source for flowering bulbs. If anyone has a good link I would appreciate it.
> I think 2 red suns, and 2 Fiji purple, and 1 coral wave, and 67000K full spectrum. Need 2 more.


Check these guys out for the Fiji and UVL bulbs. Good customer service and fast shipping unlike Aquarium Specialties.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 17, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Check these guys out for the Fiji and UVL bulbs. Good customer service and fast shipping unlike Aquarium Specialties.


who are you talking about?


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## Calrt (Dec 17, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> who are you talking about?


Lol, oops!

http://eyepoppincorals.com/


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 17, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I need a source for flowering bulbs. If anyone has a good link I would appreciate it.
> I think 2 red suns, and 2 Fiji purple, and 1 coral wave, and 67000K full spectrum. Need 2 more.



They may not have the best prices, but a good selection http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/


damn guess I missed the previous posts lol. Petmountain.com has WavePoints at a good price, fast shipping to the western US


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 17, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> WOW! I've never seen anything like that. Amazing. Was that done with the blue wave, reef wave, 6500, and red sun?
> I've always wanted to have short dense plants like that. With such tight internodes, you can imagine what the bud formation will be like!


I now have em vegging under the 8 bulb, but up until yesterday they were only under the 4 bulb w 2 6500k's and 1ea Blue Wave & Reef Wave... I didnt get any red suns until yesterday
vegged under top fixture only with this blend -->  =


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 17, 2011)

hyroot said:


> what do you think about the radiion? i saw those on ebay and did a google search for the company and couldn't find a thing on them. i ended up finding someone on there selling 6 bulb hydrofarms for 120.


At first I got the two 4 bulbs for $100 ea. The ebay listing showed them as being used w slight wear. The only sign of any use is subtle dents/marks on the reflector... just windex the reflector when you change the bulbs and they're fine. Ive had no problems at all, and had no prob dropping $150 for the 8 bulb. After I got the first two and then purchased bloom bulbs separately, I found other fixtures being sold with all bloom or 50/50 bloom/6500k... then I found the same fixtures marketed as aquarium lights being sold with blends of 10000k/460actinic. The aquarium models are available new and with optional timers that may allow you to set different on off times for specific bulbs, which may be nice if you want to hit some FarRed/IR before and after the main lights to simulate natural dawn/dusk just like aquarists do when lighting corals.


I think the bad boys are wider overall, my 4 bulbs are 13" wide and the 8 bulb is 17" wide.

I saw the hydrofarms and even searched out commercial lighting mfg's for high bay fixtures, but went with the radiions from ebay again because they have a nice compact design, everything is self contained. 4 bulbs can daisy chain. 8 bulbs cant, but do have multiple switches.

$70 for 4x24" $100 for 4x48" $125 for 6x48" $150 for 8x48" and I think I might have seen some 12 or 16 bulb fixtures... free shipping.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 17, 2011)

anyone have a SPD chart for 10000k bulbs? Im using 2 6500k's just to have a bit of green in the blend (Ive read that chlorophyll uses the red/blue light with more efficiency in the presence of green light... some LED panels come with a ratio of something like 12red/4blue/1green) so I want a little green from those bulbs but I cant find a spd for 10k's to compare the spikes between 10k's and 6.5k's


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## hyroot (Dec 17, 2011)

check out these bulbs i might grab the actinics and maybe the 10000k for veg.

http://coralifeproducts.com/product/lamps/

it would not let me save the or copy the spd charts. click on the button for each light and it will show you.

they sell them at petco for 15.99


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 17, 2011)

hyroot said:


> check out these bulbs i might grab the actinics and maybe the 10000k for veg.
> 
> http://coralifeproducts.com/product/lamps/
> 
> ...


HOLY SHIT those red ones look like the holy grail of 630nm and 660nm ish spikes, w a pretty wide band from blue through green. I gotta do some research and try to find a bigger SPD graph, but those could replace red suns for cheaper????


edit, damn I was wrong, the chart I found in google images is not even close to the graph the pops up when you hover over the colormax bulb. Google images for Coralife colormax shows a pink hued bulb like the WavePoint RedWaves with this chart ... 

The graph their website shows looks like tits, nice wide red swatch... this chart looks like balls


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## MurshDawg (Dec 17, 2011)

Here's a little update on what's going on. I hope y'all enjoy it. [video=youtube;QZRNhA9qttU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZRNhA9qttU[/video]


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## PetFlora (Dec 18, 2011)

The 6500 looks vg, too. It has a bit more red, which should not hurt, if they happen to be out of the 10K when you need one



hyroot said:


> check out these bulbs i might grab the actinics and maybe the 10000k for veg.
> 
> http://coralifeproducts.com/product/lamps/
> 
> ...


----------



## milfblaster (Dec 18, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Is it possible to use the T5 spectrum (actinic side) to keep the nodes that tight during flower, and prevent the plants from stretching like crazy? My plants always run away on me in flower and I'd like them to stay more squat.


They might stretch less if you leave the veg bulbs in for the first few weeks of 12/12. That would be an interesting experiment.

Some people feed them bushmaster. I like the scrog technique to keep them short.


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## Redoctober (Dec 18, 2011)

milfblaster said:


> They might stretch less if you leave the veg bulbs in for the first few weeks of 12/12. That would be an interesting experiment.Some people feed them bushmaster. I like the scrog technique to keep them short.


Interesting idea, I do that with nutrients; feed em veg formula for first week or 2 of flower. I guess we'll have to test the veg bulb theory to see if it prevents stretch. I just hope that having the extra blue in there for initial phase doesn't delay flowering and flower formation.


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## AltarNation (Dec 18, 2011)

Sup guys... just wanted to let y'all know I should have some harvest results for you soon. Only did a partial because the lower buds were still less developed, but I feel really good about it... seemed like a lot of quality smoke to my amateur eyes. :0]

I am still not convinced I waited til full development... but the hairs were receding, buds were getting hard... seemed close enough. And I didn't want to painstakingly track each of seven bagseed plants individually, so whatever I get I get. Also I think I was still suffering a cal/mag issue as I was starting to get brown leaves shriveling up in the buds themselves... decided it was better to just chop 'em.

Next round I will definitely be adding lime a lot sooner... and in the future I will be mixing it in up front...


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## falcon223 (Dec 18, 2011)

Cant Waite. love cana porn. I find it hard to find lime in my area. I want some dolomite lime. Dont know where to find it.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 18, 2011)

Started a new batch today this will be the first time I'll be cloning from the start with the par bulbs. I'll compare average time of root onset compared to Mh light.

My first flowering with these lights didn't turn out great as far as yield but I just sampled a small nug tonight and _MY GOD_ is it potent!

I'll be doing a solo cup Uc grow and will continue to flower using this light hoping for a greater yield.


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## hyroot (Dec 18, 2011)

Using veg bulbs to prevent stretching is pointless. The flower bulbs do not cause stretching. The first week or 2 the plant still grows taller producing new nodes and foliage. Thats not stretching. If yours are stretching then either your light is too far away or you are using the wrong bulbs or you haven't ever used them and you dont know what you re talking about. That is not directed at anyone. Just a generalization.


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## hyroot (Dec 18, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Sup guys... just wanted to let y'all know I should have some harvest results for you soon. Only did a partial because the lower buds were still less developed, but I feel really good about it... seemed like a lot of quality smoke to my amateur eyes. :0]
> 
> I am still not convinced I waited til full development... but the hairs were receding, buds were getting hard... seemed close enough. And I didn't want to painstakingly track each of seven bagseed plants individually, so whatever I get I get. Also I think I was still suffering a cal/mag issue as I was starting to get brown leaves shriveling up in the buds themselves... decided it was better to just chop 'em.
> 
> Next round I will definitely be adding lime a lot sooner... and in the future I will be mixing it in up front...


Sounds like you were over feeding them. They can lock up from that. I could tell more from a pic. Too much phos will cause browning leaves. If you see the tips turning a reddish brown then cut back on nutes. You should track them seperatley. They each need different regiments. If you go by the directions on the bottle, full strength is actually 20% less than what it says because you are using differnt things in conjuction with each other. When I started brewing teas. It took me almost a month to figure out proper regiments for each of my strains. Also they can all be done at different times. My rule of thumb is when they look done to your own eyes (no scope) give them another week. Or use a scope. I like chopping when at least half the trichomes are amber. If you dont have access toba scope. Experiment. Chop at different times and see what you like more. Your next batch will usually be better thatn the one before. Even experienced growers have a learning curve when a new strain is introduced into the garden.. Hope my ramblings help in some way.


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## organicbynature (Dec 19, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Started a new batch today this will be the first time I'll be cloning from the start with the par bulbs. I'll compare average time of root onset compared to Mh light.
> 
> My first flowering with these lights didn't turn out great as far as yield but I just sampled a small nug tonight and _MY GOD_ is it potent!
> 
> I'll be doing a solo cup Uc grow and will continue to flower using this light hoping for a greater yield.


Did you talk about your first PAR harvest already or are you just getting to that now?

I want to know more! 

Glad it's awesome.


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## falcon223 (Dec 19, 2011)

I don't think you can give Undercurent advice. Because he has a ware house set up. I think. So he is a pro, that is for sure.


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## Redoctober (Dec 19, 2011)

> Started a new batch today this will be the first time I'll be cloning from the start with the par bulbs. I'll compare average time of root onset compared to Mh light. My first flowering with these lights didn't turn out great as far as yield but I just sampled a small nug tonight and MY GOD is it potent! I'll be doing a solo cup Uc grow and will continue to flower using this light hoping for a greater yield.


 Sorry to hear about the yield UnderCurrent. That's a bit disappointing considering how much you put into it (24 bulbs). Would you attribute it solely to the lights, or were there any other factors involved? Was it lack of light penetration that caused it? I forget how many plants you were doing. Did you change anything else from your HPS grows to this one besides the lights, and were you using an equivalent wattage of T5 that you would have been using with HPS? 

Happy to hear about the quality however! So far we have two similar reviews of the T5 flowering performance: lower yield but increased quality. Although hyroot had an asterisk next to his grow because of a few non-T5 related issues. Anecdotally I believe BendMC on another forum said he had relatively comparable HPS and T5 yields, and he wasn't even using PAR bulbs, just the Quantum veg 6000 and bloom 3000. 

I still remain optimistic that it is possible to achieve comparable yields to HPS, but maybe I'm just talking myself into it because I'm financially and emotionally invested in T5 now lol!


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## AltarNation (Dec 19, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Sounds like you were over feeding them. They can lock up from that. I could tell more from a pic. Too much phos will cause browning leaves. If you see the tips turning a reddish brown then cut back on nutes. You should track them seperatley. They each need different regiments. If you go by the directions on the bottle, full strength is actually 20% less than what it says because you are using differnt things in conjuction with each other. When I started brewing teas. It took me almost a month to figure out proper regiments for each of my strains. Also they can all be done at different times. My rule of thumb is when they look done to your own eyes (no scope) give them another week. Or use a scope. I like chopping when at least half the trichomes are amber. If you dont have access toba scope. Experiment. Chop at different times and see what you like more. Your next batch will usually be better thatn the one before. Even experienced growers have a learning curve when a new strain is introduced into the garden.. Hope my ramblings help in some way.


Appreciate your feedback... could have been overfeeding I guess... I'd track separately but it seems kind of unreasonable to track seven plants simultaneously... got any tips on how to go about that? Do you keep written records? Switch up dosages regularly? I'm a stoner... it's hard to keep track of shit like that, for me, hahaha. I don't really know proper methods for testing their needs, because I don't recognize the symptoms easily either, being a newbie.

I do have a 30x magnifier and I would say trichomes were approaching 50% amber on most of them. Some of them may not have been as done. In the future I plan to work with less genetic variation so it will be easier to keep track of what I'm doing. My next batch (in veg right now) is three plants in bigger containers (5 gal bags) so at least there is less variation there. They are clones from the bag seed plants, so it's still sort of a crapshoot genetically but at least there's only 3 to keep track of instead of 7, I think that will make it a lot easier on me. I'm also planning to veg them longer and get bigger bushes going to take up the difference in space, so maybe that will give me more time to get to know them in this sense and adjust to their needs.

I will start with lower doses this time... it's hard to tell which end of the map I'm on a lot of the time though, as far as feedback from the plants is concerned... one person says it's nute burn, another tells me cal/mag deficiency... and I honestly don't know how to tell the difference that well. The leaves yellow, and then the tips go dark brown, and then the whole leaf goes brown. Is that nute burn?

Honestly I can't wait to use up all the foxfarm nutrients and switch to something organic so I don't have to deal with the salts and flushing the salts every few weeks... 

I am SURE some of my plants were a little early, but I'm also fairly sure some of them were due. Some of them were not as dense feeling, and those were probably a bit early. The others had receded hairs, rock hard colas, and a good ratio of amber... But with these lights, I feel like I need to keep my canopy so even, so I felt the need to chop all of these to allow for maintaining an even canopy on the lower buds, which I left in tact... maybe a silly reason. But it's also the holiday season and I wanted to make sure things were taken care of in time to not be affected by travel and such... probably could have waited til after, but those brown leafs were kinda freaking me out.

I'm not too worried about it... for a first time, I feel like I did really well. Always looking to improve though, so next grow will hopefully be more dialed in and perhaps I'll have more of a sense of what's going on... like I said, any tips for how to monitor/track/vary feeding to learn the needs of the plants individually, I'm all ears on that stuff.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 19, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Sorry to hear about the yield UnderCurrent. That's a bit disappointing considering how much you put into it (24 bulbs). Would you attribute it solely to the lights, or were there any other factors involved? Was it lack of light penetration that caused it? I forget how many plants you were doing. Did you change anything else from your HPS grows to this one besides the lights, and were you using an equivalent wattage of T5 that you would have been using with HPS?
> 
> Happy to hear about the quality however! So far we have two similar reviews of the T5 flowering performance: lower yield but increased quality. Although hyroot had an asterisk next to his grow because of a few non-T5 related issues. Anecdotally I believe BendMC on another forum said he had relatively comparable HPS and T5 yields, and he wasn't even using PAR bulbs, just the Quantum veg 6000 and bloom 3000.
> 
> I still remain optimistic that it is possible to achieve comparable yields to HPS, but maybe I'm just talking myself into it because I'm financially and emotionally invested in T5 now lol!


This could very well be the case and we could all find out next month that Pr0Fesseur works for Quantum and the joke is on all of us. LOL


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 19, 2011)

UnderCurrent - do you have pics of your yield and some numbers somewhere?


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## asdmo (Dec 19, 2011)

This is a really interesting thread, glad I found this cause I was actually going to buy brand new 6500k lights for my t5. Im actually thinking of using the PAR t5's to veg and (2) 600w Hps to flower cause im kinda iffy about the yield that a t5 would put out during flower. Correct me if im wrong, the recommended veg setup right now for an 8 bulb would be: 8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI.

I have a Pioneer VIII 8Bulb setup, actually thinking of buying a different 8 bulb cause currently it doesnt fit into my 2x4 tent, its like 2" to wide... should I get a new tent or should i get a new t5?? thanks for the help folks! Happy growing!


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## Calrt (Dec 19, 2011)

Here are some pics from day 10 of flower. The t5 tent I think looks a little happier but you be the judge!T5 up closeT5 up close again.600w HPS tentUp close



Strain: Lemon Kush
Lights: 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast.
T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 3 Red Suns 2 Coral Waves, 2 Fijis, 1 454
Temps with the lights on 72-75 degrees Off around 62-65
RH 23-40


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## hyroot (Dec 19, 2011)

AltarNation said:


> Appreciate your feedback... could have been overfeeding I guess... I'd track separately but it seems kind of unreasonable to track seven plants simultaneously... got any tips on how to go about that? Do you keep written records? Switch up dosages regularly? I'm a stoner... it's hard to keep track of shit like that, for me, hahaha. I don't really know proper methods for testing their needs, because I don't recognize the symptoms easily either, being a newbie.
> 
> I do have a 30x magnifier and I would say trichomes were approaching 50% amber on most of them. Some of them may not have been as done. In the future I plan to work with less genetic variation so it will be easier to keep track of what I'm doing. My next batch (in veg right now) is three plants in bigger containers (5 gal bags) so at least there is less variation there. They are clones from the bag seed plants, so it's still sort of a crapshoot genetically but at least there's only 3 to keep track of instead of 7, I think that will make it a lot easier on me. I'm also planning to veg them longer and get bigger bushes going to take up the difference in space, so maybe that will give me more time to get to know them in this sense and adjust to their needs.
> 
> ...



first off. yeah write everything you feed them down and keep track. write how much of each nute you used and see if its enough or too much and then change accordingly. eventually you will have it down and won't need to write down anything.

tips and edges yellow - magnesium deficiency. 

Blotchy yellowing - nitrogen and/or phosphorus deficiency

reddish brown tips and edges / spread to rest of leaf - over feeding phosphorus- causes plant to get nutrient lock and will stop growing. - flush if nute lock happens happens.

curling leaves and/ or whole stalk is purple - ph is off or nute lock( if no new growth occurs) or over watering.

red transparent circles - calcium deficiency.

that covers most common ones


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## hyroot (Dec 19, 2011)

final tally on yield. half pure indicas and half hybrid sativa dominant. Per plant its disappointing. But for area I guess its pretty good. 2.5 x 4 - 10 sqft total = 319 g yield

also like i said before many factors why i think yield was so small.


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## hyroot (Dec 19, 2011)

*The major nutrient uptake processes are:

1) Active transport mechanism into root hairs (the plant has to put energy in it, ATP driven) which is selective to some degree. This is one way the plant (being immobile) can adjust to the environment.

2) Passive transport (diffusion) through symplast to endodermis.

Lecture Notes:, Transport and Nutrition in Plants, Bio 102

http://www.hort.wisc.edu/cran/Publications/2001 Proceedings/min_nutr.pdf

The claim only &#8216;chemical&#8217; ferted plants need to be flushed should be taken with a grain of salt. Organic and synthetic ferted plants take up mineral ions alike, probably to a different degree though. Many influences play key roles in the taste and flavor of the final bud, like the nutrition balance and strength throughout the entire life cycle of the plant, the drying and curing process and other environmental conditions.

3) Active transport mechanism of organic molecules into root hairs via endocytosis.

Elisabeth Holland

Here is a simplified overview of nutrient functions:

Nitrogen is needed to build chlorophyll, amino acids, and proteins. Phosphorus is necessary for photosynthesis and other growth processes. Potassium is utilized to form sugar and starch and to activate enzymes. Magnesium also plays a role in activating enzymes and is part of chlorophyll. Calcium is used during cell growth and division and is part of the cell wall. Sulfur is part of amino acids and proteins.

Plants also require trace elements, which include boron, chlorine, copper, iron, manganese, sodium, zinc, molybdenum, nickel, cobalt, and silicon.

Copper, iron, and manganese are used in photosynthesis. Molybdenum, nickel, and cobalt are necessary for the movement of nitrogen in the plant. Boron is important for reproduction, while chlorine stimulates root growth and development. Sodium benefits the movement of water within the plant and zinc is neeeded for enzymes and used in auxins (organic plant hormones). Finally, silicon helps to build tough cell walls for better heat and drought tolerance.

Sidwell Friends School » News and Events

You can get an idea from this how closely all the essential elements are involved in the many metabolic processes within the plant, often relying on each other.

Nutrient movement and mobility inside the plant:

Besides endocytosis, there are two major pathways inside the plant, the xylem and the phloem. When water and minerals are absorbed by plant roots, these substances must be transported up to the plant's stems and leaves for photosynthesis and further metabolic processes. This upward transport happens in the xylem. While the xylem is able to transport organic compounds, the phloem is much more adapted to do so.

The organic compounds thus originating in the leaves have to be moved throughout the plant, upwards and downwards, to where they are needed. This transport happens in the phloem. Compounds that are moving through the phloem are mostly:
Sugars as sugary saps, organic nitrogen compounds (amino acids and amides, ureides and legumes), hormones and proteins.

Sirius Systems, Inc.

Not all nutrient compounds are moveable within the plant.

1) N, P, K, Mg and S are considered mobile: they can move up and down the plant in both xylem and phloem.
Deficiency appears on old leaves first.

2) Ca, Fe, Zn, Mo, B, Cu, Mn are considered immobile: they only move up the plant in the xylem.
Deficiency appears on new leaves first.

HORT 201 & 202 Home Page

Storage organelles:

Salts and organic metabolites can be stored in storage organelles. The most important storage organelle is the vacuole, which can contribute up to 90% of the cell volume. The majority of compounds found in the vacuole are sugars, polysaccharides, organic acids and proteins though.

http://jeb.biologists.org.pdf

Translocation:

Now that the basics are explained, we can take a look at the translocation process. It should be already clear that only mobile elements can be translocated through the phloem. Immobile elements cant be translocated and are not more available to the plant for further metabolic processes and new plant growth.

Since flushing (in theory) induces a nutrient deficiency in the rootzone, the translocation process aids in the plants survival. Translocation is transportation of assimilates through the phloem from source (a net exporter of assimilate) to sink (a net importer of assimilate). Sources are mostly mature fan leaves and sinks are mostly apical meristems, lateral meristem, fruit, seed and developing leaves etc.

You can see this by the yellowing and later dying of the mature fan leaves from the second day on after flushing started. Developing leaves, bud leaves and calyxes don&#8217;t serve as sources, they are sinks. Changes in those plant parts are due to the deficient immobile elements which start to indicate on new growth first.

Unfortunately, several metabolic processes are unable to take place anymore since other elements needed are no longer available (the immobile ones). This includes processes where nitrogen and phosphorus, which have likely the most impact on taste, are involved.

For example nitrogen: usually plants use nitrogen to form plant proteins. Enzyme systems rapidly reduce nitrate-N (NO3-) to compounds that are used to build amino-nitrogen which is the basis for amino acids. Amino acids are building blocks for proteins, most of them are plant enzymes responsible for all the chemical changes important for plant growth.

Sulfur and calcium among others have major roles in production and activating of proteins, thereby decreasing nitrate within the plant. Excess nitrate within the plant may result from unbalanced nutrition rather than an excess of nitrogen.

University of Missouri Extension Home*


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## organicbynature (Dec 19, 2011)

hyroot said:


> final tally on yield. half pure indicas and half hybrid sativa dominant. Per plant its disappointing. But for area I guess its pretty good. 2.5 x 4 - 10 sqft total = 319 g yield
> 
> also like i said before many factors why i think yield was so small.


That was with an 8-bulb? Cause that's not a bad yield.

319 / 430 = .74 g/w isn't too shabby for a first go with these if you ask me. Especially if the quality is there.

And as you say, it's not bad by area either. If I stuck two 8-bulbs in a 5x5 tent and pulled off 1.4+ pounds of frosty buds I don't think I'd be disappointed.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 19, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> That was with an 8-bulb? Cause that's not a bad yield.
> 
> 319 / 430 = .74 g/w isn't too shabby for a first go with these if you ask me. Especially if the quality is there.
> 
> And as you say, it's not bad by area either. If I stuck two 8-bulbs in a 5x5 tent and pulled off 1.4+ pounds of frosty buds I don't think I'd be disappointed.


.74 is a great first time number... i would be proud of that .. once dialed in im sure you can hit 1.0


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## overTHEman (Dec 19, 2011)

Whenever there is a change in a grow room (nutrients, medium, strain, LIGHTS, etc.), yield changes. Good growing hyroot, rep.

Carlrt, great bulb choice! Pretty plants in your PAR tent.



*Week 4*









Note, she's headed toward lockout. Struggling with the phosphorus problem, so she'll be going on a diet.


Happy growing.


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## asdmo (Dec 20, 2011)

Hey guys im stopping by the local aquarium shop to buy some lights tomorrow. Just wondering if the recommended 8 bulb Veg setup is still: 
*

8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI​
​
*Oh also, I have a Sunleaves Pioneer VIII 8Bulb T5 fixture, am i supposed to get the VHO bulbs? Cause im not sure if my fixture supports VHO, someone please clear this up for me?


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## PetFlora (Dec 20, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Cant Waite. love cana porn. I find it hard to find lime in my area. I want some dolomite lime. Dont know where to find it.


Lowes/HD usually has it in outside garden area. If not there a nursery


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## PetFlora (Dec 20, 2011)

Anybody have a good alternative to UVL Red Suns? Just had my 3rd one go bad. I had taken it out for a few weeks, but when I put it back _nada._ I have an email in to AS, but this is getting ridiculous.

I am drying now, maybe another week. Not sure what to expect due to burning them up from the inside; probably OD them with too much DM Potash +


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 20, 2011)

asdmo said:


> Hey guys im stopping by the local aquarium shop to buy some lights tomorrow. Just wondering if the recommended 8 bulb Veg setup is still:
> *
> 
> 8 BULB - VEG = FIJI / RED / BLUE1 / 75.25 /FIJI / BLUE2 / RED / FIJI​
> ...


More than likely you won't be able to find those bulbs @ your local aquarium shop.
Yes those are the bulbs you want and that order looks fine.
You'll be fine with these bulbs being vho and your T5 being Ho.


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## asdmo (Dec 20, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> More than likely you won't be able to find those bulbs @ your local aquarium shop.
> Yes those are the bulbs you want and that order looks fine.
> You'll be fine with these bulbs being vho and your T5 being Ho.


Thanks for your reply UC, I actually found a store that had every bulb except the Red Sun, and 454. I think I might have to order online from a different supplier, any suggestions? 

Oh also, should I be getting the bulbs with the internal reflectors? Thanks for your help much appreciated!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 20, 2011)

asdmo said:


> Thanks for your reply UC, I actually found a store that had every bulb except the Red Sun, and 454. I think I might have to order online from a different supplier, any suggestions?
> 
> Oh also, should I be getting the bulbs with the internal reflectors? Thanks for your help much appreciated!


Nice!... was it a national store or just a local one?
Aquariumspecialty.com
Internal reflectors are recommended but if there out of stock I'd get the regulars.


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## organicbynature (Dec 20, 2011)

I question the value of the internal reflectors a little. I guess I'm ambivalent about them.

My T5 fixtures have individual reflectors built in with 95% reflectivity. I imagine with the internal bulb reflectors you get a bit more penetration, but it also sends the light from that bulb out at different angles from the bulbs without internal reflectors. Particularly in the case of actinics, red suns, etc, where you're working with a narrow spectrum, I would think there is benefit to having that light blend with your other bulbs' light better, rather then getting extra penetration from them. On the other hand, I hate to talk down anything that gives T5s more penetration.

Does this make sense to anyone else?

My hunch is they don't make a big difference either way and it's probably not worth stressing about it one way or the other.


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## Calrt (Dec 20, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I question the value of the internal reflectors a little. I guess I'm ambivalent about them.
> 
> My T5 fixtures have individual reflectors built in with 95% reflectivity. I imagine with the internal bulb reflectors you get a bit more penetration, but it also sends the light from that bulb out at different angles from the bulbs without internal reflectors. Particularly in the case of actinics, red suns, etc, where you're working with a narrow spectrum, I would think there is benefit to having that light blend with your other bulbs' light better, rather then getting extra penetration from them. On the other hand, I hate to talk down anything that gives T5s more penetration.
> 
> ...


Could not have put it better myself!


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## Calrt (Dec 20, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Anybody have a good alternative to UVL Red Suns? Just had my 3rd one go bad. I had taken it out for a few weeks, but when I put it back _nada._ I have an email in to AS, but this is getting ridiculous.
> 
> I am drying now, maybe another week. Not sure what to expect due to burning them up from the inside; probably OD them with too much DM Potash +


Thats sucks to hear more people with Red Sun problems. Has anyone run one in a VHO fixture? Could under driving them be a problem?


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## asdmo (Dec 20, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Nice!... was it a national store or just a local one?
> Aquariumspecialty.com
> Internal reflectors are recommended but if there out of stock I'd get the regulars.
> 
> ​


Its a local store, they ship out to the US, check out their website.
http://www.vividaquariums.com/aquariumlightingbulbs.asp

So just clearing things up, say you have VHO bulbs; a non-VHO t5 Fixture is able to put out the same light intensity as a VHO fixture?


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 20, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Thats sucks to hear more people with Red Sun problems. Has anyone run one in a VHO fixture? Could under driving them be a problem?


I was optimistic when awaiting my 4 Red Suns and I started seeing people talking about their shoddy quality... I thought "no not me"...



less than a week in and it stopped lighting on the left half  the geek at aquarium specialty said "yeah we've been hearing alot about the UVL's" then said they'd replace it.


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## hyroot (Dec 20, 2011)

All my bulbs are going strong especially the redsuns. 4 months strong. 


Try switching bulbs to make sure its the bulb and not the fixture the bb's sometimes have qc issues and who knows with the ebay lights. I bought a hydrofarm from ebay myself too. No issues with that though.


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## hyroot (Dec 20, 2011)

To all my fellow PARtians. 

In my quest to organically irradicate all the harmful bugs from the garden I stumbled upon the cure for genetic powdery mildew. You can buy it in a bottle ready to go. What is it and where can I get it you ask. I'm building the suspense here. Not only is it an insecticide, its also a fungicide. It can be used as foliar, soil drench or used in a reservoir. It is organic and omri listed. Its a mix of fish oil and sesame oil. You can find it at home depot for $14. it is called, wait for it wait for it.......


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## hyroot (Dec 20, 2011)

Its organocide


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 21, 2011)

hyroot said:


> All my bulbs are going strong especially the redsuns. 4 months strong.
> 
> 
> Try switching bulbs to make sure its the bulb and not the fixture the bb's sometimes have qc issues and who knows with the ebay lights. I bought a hydrofarm from ebay myself too. No issues with that though.


Yeah, already swapped in a blue wave and its running fine in that fixture, then I tried it in a different fixture and it was still bad. Aquarium specialty said its prob a re-occuring prob with the end caps that cause them to fail... makes sense but whatev, now I gotta wait another week for shipping from East coast to the desert.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 21, 2011)

asdmo said:


> So just clearing things up, say you have VHO bulbs; a non-VHO t5 Fixture is able to put out the same light intensity as a VHO fixture?


no, the ho t5 fixture will fire the bulb @ 54w giving you around 5000 lummens from the bulb, the vho will fire it @ around 96w giving you around 7500 lummens. Firing the bulb with only 54w will give you a longer bulb life.


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## PetFlora (Dec 21, 2011)

*RE: Red Life/Sun *

My replacement worked fine. Then I took it out to return to veg. When I reinstalled it, it did not fire in my BB. I put another bulb in its' place which works fine. Just heard from Kelly at AS, she said they sure had a lot of problems with that 'batch'.


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## asdmo (Dec 21, 2011)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> no, the ho t5 fixture will fire the bulb @ 54w giving you around 5000 lummens from the bulb, the vho will fire it @ around 96w giving you around 7500 lummens. Firing the bulb with only 54w will give you a longer bulb life.
> ​


Thank makes sense. Thanks for clearing that up UC! Time for me to order some bulbs!


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 21, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> *RE: Red Life/Sun *
> 
> My replacement worked fine. Then I took it out to return to veg. When I reinstalled it, it did not fire in my BB. I put another bulb in its' place which works fine. Just heard from Kelly at AS, she said they sure had a lot of problems with that 'batch'.


Yeah, I will give Aquarium Specialty credit at least for being responsive about it. I talked to Kelly too, and she was pretty cool about it and said they'd send out a replacement right away, and she said the replacements are coming from a newer order than the stock that was just sold so hopefully the prob as been fixed at the source. (although I just got mine a week ago so who knows) Im always an optimist, and thought all mine would be fine, and now I have to hope my replacement will be fine... but damn, your replacement went out too  That really sucks. 

I wish there were more T5 options in the red spectrum


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 21, 2011)

PIcs of finishing products folks, that is what is needed here. Someone prove WEIGHT!


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## organicbynature (Dec 21, 2011)

I'm going to be ordering some more T5s soon. I've been using them as side lighting, but I think I'll be starting an all T5 grow soon.

In light of all the problems with Red Suns, I may try some of the Philips red bulbs I posted graphs for a little while ago. If so, I'll let y'all know how they compare!

Also, I've been thinking about something that I think could use some clearing up. As PAR/PUR-educated growers, we don't worry too much about lumens. But why?

A 1000w HPS puts out about 150k lumens (I'm looking at an AgroMax bulb at HTG supply for that number), a 600w HPS puts out about 95k lumens. A 400w HPS is rated at 55k. Meanwhile those 8-bulb New Wave T-5 fixtures mentioned recently are rated at 40k lumens. So with two 600w HPS bulbs you get 190k lumens, where as with the same wattage of T5 panels you only get 120k. Given the significant decrease in lumen output, how can we expect the T5s to compare to HPS, even with more PAR?

It has to do with how lumens are measured.

I'm no expert on this, and would love confirmation from someone who is or an awesome link or something like that, but my understanding is that lumens as a measurement are "calibrated" for the human eye. Because the human eye sees green/yellow light more intensely than red/blue, a certain amount of green light will produce (a lot) more lumens than the same amount of red light. As a result, these color lights appear less bright to us, but not to plants, which as we know are much more interested in red/blue light.

Why does this matter to us? Because we look at some of these base bulbs and they look pretty darn white to us. But, maybe they should, right? Even though there may not be as much yellow/green light as red/blue light in these bulbs as many of the graphs show, they should still appear whiter to us than we might expect, because the green and yellow that is in the lights will appear brighter to us than the red/blue light. (I'm talking about base bulbs - Fijis and their alternatives, not actinics, Red Suns, etc.)

In fact, according to this graph, the human eye uses light essentially opposite from photosynthesis in terms of efficiency, so clearly our eye is not a good judge of spectrum/light intensity for this application.



Source: The Perceptive Efficiency of the Human Eye as a Function of Wavelength

Thoughts? I wish I had a better source for this information.


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## MurshDawg (Dec 22, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Its organocide


I love that stuff! It smells like nasty fish or ripe pussy.


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I'm going to be ordering some more T5s soon. I've been using them as side lighting, but I think I'll be starting an all T5 grow soon.
> 
> In light of all the problems with Red Suns, I may try some of the Philips red bulbs I posted graphs for a little while ago. If so, I'll let y'all know how they compare!
> 
> ...


Early on in the thread. Prof touches on all that and explains with math and diagrams why lumens (visible light) are irrelavant.


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2011)

Thes fools just don't know.



[video=youtube;2UFc1pr2yUU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UFc1pr2yUU&amp;hd=1&amp;t=17s[/video]


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## ohiogrown03 (Dec 22, 2011)

I just typed up a huge post and lost it like an idiot while previewing, so anyway......posting this on this thread as well because it's been helpful and i am using t5. Just ran into some possible issues with some of the leaves 37 days into flower. I've been feeding every 3 days usually with solution mixed to the directions on the bottle of general hydroponics regular line for bloom/ripen. And just the past 2 times with some added koolbloom 1tsp/gallon like it says. Temps have been 82-64(moving in a couple days so i half assed the temp control, but i made adjustments tonight to keep it below 80 at least for 2 more days til it moves to new home to finish. PH has been good, but i noticed today it was 4.5-5.25ish so I flushed with plain water PH'd to 7 to try and raise a little and maybe counteract the burn i'm getting if it's not just due to temps. Anyway problems are some clearly "burned" looking spots on a handful of leaves, curling tips on about 1/3 to 1/4 of plant, more older growth than new. Tiny white specs the size of a pinhead that do not wipe off, small white blotches that look almost bleached, and i think thats it. Here are some of the pictures, i'm also going to start a thread in the problems part of the forum. Thanks for any help and I'm only posting in this thread because i am using t5.


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2011)

ohiogrown03 said:


> I just typed up a huge post and lost it like an idiot while previewing, so anyway......posting this on this thread as well because it's been helpful and i am using t5. Just ran into some possible issues with some of the leaves 37 days into flower. I've been feeding every 3 days usually with solution mixed to the directions on the bottle of general hydroponics regular line for bloom/ripen. And just the past 2 times with some added koolbloom 1tsp/gallon like it says. Temps have been 82-64(moving in a couple days so i half assed the temp control, but i made adjustments tonight to keep it below 80 at least for 2 more days til it moves to new home to finish. PH has been good, but i noticed today it was 4.5-5.25ish so I flushed with plain water PH'd to 7 to try and raise a little and maybe counteract the burn i'm getting if it's not just due to temps. Anyway problems are some clearly "burned" looking spots on a handful of leaves, curling tips on about 1/3 to 1/4 of plant, more older growth than new. Tiny white specs the size of a pinhead that do not wipe off, small white blotches that look almost bleached, and i think thats it. Here are some of the pictures, i'm also going to start a thread in the problems part of the forum. Thanks for any help and I'm only posting in this thread because i am using t5.View attachment 1949916View attachment 1949927View attachment 1949925View attachment 1949923View attachment 1949922View attachment 1949920View attachment 1949918View attachment 1949915View attachment 1949917View attachment 1949928


The leaves with red circles around the leaves with the tiny light green spots. That looks like you have spider mites. With high heat thats definitely a possibility. get some pure spray green. That will take care of them after 2 applications, It's omri listed too. just spray the bottom of the leaves like 20 min before they go to sleep. mites like to hang out on the underside of leaves. The leaves with big white blotches, that just looks like nutrient solution got spilled on them and it burned it a little.


light bleaching, when it starts it kind of resembles pm forming but doesn't rub off. instead of turning white it gets more and more yellow


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 22, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> PIcs of finishing products folks, that is what is needed here. Someone prove WEIGHT!


Greeting and salutations all!
Happy holidaze to the rest of you crazy people.

While i would like to see others post their results, I fear what your asking for is not what we actually want.
sure more bud is always good; premium bud is ALWAYS better.
THat being said yes we need pics here, but you must remember were still in the bloom phase for most people by now.
Secondly we must understand while my grows are semi successful, and i did post pics, others are still trying to Dial in results.!
Now then we have had a grower bring in .7 g/w which on a first run with 400W is AMAZING in anyones world let alone T5...
And FINALLY who doesent want AMAZING product?
sure you can buy Moet champagne and they produce a great product cheaply.. but Crystal and Dom is what you WANT! QUALITY OVER QUANTITY.
Brokers in CA are looking for Quality from growers now not just who can grow the biggest plants...
Remember Nevilles HAze? that stuff went for 50$/g and could literally put you in a coma.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 22, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Greeting and salutations all!
> Happy holidaze to the rest of you crazy people.
> 
> While i would like to see others post their results, I fear what your asking for is not what we actually want.
> ...


The quality will be there if you are starting with quality genetics. We are talking about yield! We want to know that you can get 5-6z a plant off of a T5 grow.

I agree that most people are in Bloom. We are still in Veg with a 32 bulb T5 grow personally. 

Just anxious to know we aren't all wasting our time and money and that YOU don't work for Quantum.


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## hyroot (Dec 22, 2011)

Quantum was owned by Amerinada Dist. and recently sold to Discount Hydroponics who also owns C.A.P. and Digilux. Very few people including myself are using Badboys. Most people here have Hydrofarms, Sunblaze, Radiion, New Wave, htg, Tek, Maxlume, various aquarium brands, etc......... He's not pushing their ballasts and he has already said the quantum t5 bulbs are crap. He would of got fired or demoted for that one, so I doubt that he works for Quantum.

Prof if there is a chance you work for Quantum how about hookin up a homie price on BB??


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 22, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Quantum was owned by Amerinada Dist. and recently sold to Discount Hydroponics who also owns C.A.P. and Digilux. Very few people including myself are using Badboys. Most people here have Hydrofarms, Sunblaze, Radiion, New Wave, htg, Tek, Maxlume, various aquarium brands, etc......... He's not pushing their ballasts and he has already said the quantum t5 bulbs are crap. He would of got fired or demoted for that one, so I doubt that he works for Quantum.
> 
> Prof if there is a chance you work for Quantum how about hookin up a homie price on BB??


I'm just bustin his balls. Besides I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks it's a bit odd he hasnt posted any new grows since starting the thread.


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## tehshyt (Dec 22, 2011)

I'm planning on getting a badboy any day now to start using this method. I'm wondering if anyone who has experience can tell me what type of heat I can expect from the ballast. My grow space is limited and its possible that the metal of the ballast could actually be touching wood.

Does the ballast get really hot to the touch? Could this pose a fire hazard? What if there was a half inch of clearance between the ballast and the wood?


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## organicbynature (Dec 23, 2011)

Hey okthanks2 - Any word on those bulbs you ordered? I really want to see a shot of the Fiji alternatives next to each other.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 23, 2011)

WOW... another of my 4 new UVL piece of shit Red Suns is already going out, less than a week old. 2/4=shit  This one is noticeably dimmer than another one next to it and has dark bubbles pulsing from midway towards one end that is even darker (Im assuming it will end up going dark on that one end within a day or two like the other one did) I need a replacement for the UVL's. Flora Suns have a peak at 630nm but overall have an overall pinkish light with wasted green. Phillips as well as Osram Sylvania both have a pure red tube with no wasted green waves (much like the Red Suns), but they both peak at 610nm which is much cheaper and easier to produce, but not so good for photosynthesis which likes 630/660nm best.

Anyone have any other suggestions? Or should I just resolve to keep calling for replacement bulbs and waiting?


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## hyroot (Dec 23, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Greeting and salutations all!
> Happy holidaze to the rest of you crazy people.
> H
> While i would like to see others post their results, I fear what your asking for is not what we actually want.
> ...


$50/g . Holy rip off batman....... $50/g that better glow in the dark and give me the ability to breathe under water or something. I wouldn't pay more than $15/g for the best hash.......


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 23, 2011)

tehshyt said:


> I'm planning on getting a badboy any day now to start using this method. I'm wondering if anyone who has experience can tell me what type of heat I can expect from the ballast. My grow space is limited and its possible that the metal of the ballast could actually be touching wood.
> 
> Does the ballast get really hot to the touch? Could this pose a fire hazard? What if there was a half inch of clearance between the ballast and the wood?


My 2cents = you can almost get 2 cheap units off ebay for the cost of a BadBoy, they are almost a clone of the SunBurst units. I'd say most of the quality you're seeking from a T5 unit would be from the Bulbs#1 and the reflector #2 (individual reflectors trumps bulbs that are doubled up 2 to a reflector). Spend your money on good bulbs to replace the crap generics that come with it. If a ballast will fire a T5 bulb then its good to go compared to any other unit unless you go for a VHO fixture. I have 2 4bulb and 1 8bulb unit and none will get too hot to hold your hand near. I'd think you'd have no prob with the fixture touching wood (line it with aluminum foil if you get really worried about it) T5's do create heat, but much less than HID and is spread out over the length of the 4 foot fixture so theres no hot spots really.


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## hyroot (Dec 23, 2011)

Undercover, what is the dimesions of your 8 bulb? Is it the same as it says on ebay. They say the 8 bulb is 4' x 16.75in and the 4 bulb is 4' x 13in. my badboy 8 bulb is 4' x 2' and my hydrofarm 6 bulb is 4' x 18in. Out of all the radiion ones on ebay, for more light coverage getting a couple 4 bulbs would be the best way to go.... right...?


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 23, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Undercover, what is the dimesions of your 8 bulb? Is it the same as it says on ebay. They say the 8 bulb is 4' x 16.75in and the 4 bulb is 4' x 13in. my badboy 8 bulb is 4' x 2' and my hydrofarm 6 bulb is 4' x 18in. Out of all the radiion ones on ebay, for more light coverage getting a couple 4 bulbs would be the best way to go.... right...?


Yeah those dimensions are about right. They are pretty compact units, only 2-3 inches high also. The 8 bulb unit is almost the same as the 4 bulb, but the reflectors are a little wider and they put 2 bulbs in each, so they are a little less efficient due to re-strike as the tubes shine on each other within the reflector. I would say the 4 bulb units would be a little more efficient due to the individual reflectors and wider spaced bulbs giving better coverage. They dont get hot at all where as the 8 bulb units do get a little hot, but not where my tops arent 2-3" away. 

Overall, if you're strapped for $, the 8 bulb units are an awesome deal at $150 (the aquarium version can come with 50/50 or all Actinic460 which look exactly like the WavePoint Blue Waves when next to each other... so you can save money on bulbs also). 

But IMO, if I had $300 budgeted for fixtures, I would get 3 four bulb units over 2 eight bulb units. Although you'd get 4 less bulbs and their light, I think the benefits of the better coverage/spread from the wider/individual reflectors, and the fact that you're saving 216w, 12bulbs=648wfor almost 40" x 48" coverage vs 16bulb=864 for only 34"x48" coverage. Plus you can adjust each of the 3 smaller fixtures individually to fit plants easier than 2 larger.
This is just my opinion, and have never flowered solo w T5's (mixed w Hps) but through veg the 4 bulbs are great. For flowering, I cant say if the overall loss of those lumens/watts would drastically affect yield much, but I know that plants love having the T5's really close, and the 8 bulb units are a little heavier and not as easy to adjust right down onto the tops. I'd go all 4 bulb units if I could just for adjustability, but the 8 bulb units fix perfectly in my veg box and covered my bubblers perfect so i got one 

I know some like having two bulbs per reflector to blend the spectrums... but its not as effiecient because alot of the light energy is lost when the bulbs shine on each other and not a reflector.

From pics Ive seen, I think the Radiions are just clones of the Sunburst units.


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## PetFlora (Dec 23, 2011)

tehshyt said:


> I'm planning on getting a badboy any day now to start using this method. I'm wondering if anyone who has experience can tell me what type of heat I can expect from the ballast. My grow space is limited and its possible that the metal of the ballast could actually be touching wood.
> 
> 
> Does the ballast get really hot to the touch? Could this pose a fire hazard? What if there was a half inch of clearance between the ballast and the wood?


The ballast doesn't get HOT, hot, but I would not keep the frame that close to anything. Plus, the reflectors are vented so hot air can escape. Your idea would negate that benefit, instead, concentrating the heat onto your grow


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## okthanks2 (Dec 23, 2011)

THIS BETTER NOT BE A WASTE OF $$ because I have spent $750 on T5 bulbs to make this shit happen! Anyway, I emailed the store I purchased the Gro-Lux T5's from and they are OUT OF STOCK. Yeah, thanks for letting me know 3 weeks later. Needless to say that order is CANCELLED! I have now been running FloraSuns and 6500K bulbs half and half in my fixture for veg and it is FANfuckinTASTIC! The plants love that combo and they have doubled in size in only 3 days. I purchased some ATI ProColors since they are super cheap $9.50 a bulb in place of the FloraSuns because they are pretty much identical. Anyway, I'm starting to realize that at least for vegging, plants need more of the full spectrum. I had my half 6500K and half FloraSuns in one area and the PAR only T5's in another, and the 6500K/FloraSun plants are about 10 times bigger. Same everything for nutes and time started.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 23, 2011)

Pr0fesseur- This thread you started is now 18 months old. Do you happen to have any photo updates of your grows since this original one you had such success with? Im sure you have had at least 4 harvests since then. Would love to see the final weights and turnout.


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## falcon223 (Dec 23, 2011)

Well the great deal I was to get on a 8 bulb light, Is not going to go. Here is a copy of the email I got to day, and the light is to come today. I will never do business with this company again.Thy will not oner the sale price that was posted, and of coarse they got my money.


We just discovered an error with this product and for some reason the SKU also known as a Product Code listed as 960195 is for a different item, the 4 foot 2 bulb light system and the price is for that item as well. So unfortunately when we shipped the item we shipped the wrong product to you and charged the cheaper price for the smaller light system. We have a couple options how we can resolve this issue. We can give you an additional discount and you will only have payed $100 for each light and we will send you a free $10 gift certificate to use with any future puchases. Second you can refuse the shipment when it arrives and we will still send you a free gift certificate and we will refund your entire purchase price. If you accept the item we will have to do a return and it will take us longer to get your money refunded. No matter what though we will make sure to resolve this issue as fast as possible, we apologze profusely for this mixup and we have already taken down the listing to be fixed. Please let us know as soon as possible when you receive this message, if you have any questions please don't hesitate to call us at 800-818-6128 thank you.

Happy Holidays


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## falcon223 (Dec 23, 2011)

Oh yea the phone number is for a recording.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Dec 23, 2011)

I think they're bound to give you the item for the advertised price. Other wise you have grounds for a law suit under false advertising. Depends on how far you want to take it.

My cousin had this problem when buying fine china after his wedding, the store had to honor there advertising mistake.

Good luck 
Uc~

[video=youtube;oc_ZhdAJyOE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc_ZhdAJyOE[/video]​


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## Calrt (Dec 23, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Well the great deal I was to get on a 8 bulb light, Is not going to go. Here is a copy of the email I got to day, and the light is to come today. I will never do business with this company again.Thy will not oner the sale price that was posted, and of coarse they got my money.
> 
> 
> We just discovered an error with this product and for some reason the SKU also known as a Product Code listed as 960195 is for a different item, the 4 foot 2 bulb light system and the price is for that item as well. So unfortunately when we shipped the item we shipped the wrong product to you and charged the cheaper price for the smaller light system. We have a couple options how we can resolve this issue. We can give you an additional discount and you will only have payed $100 for each light and we will send you a free $10 gift certificate to use with any future puchases. Second you can refuse the shipment when it arrives and we will still send you a free gift certificate and we will refund your entire purchase price. If you accept the item we will have to do a return and it will take us longer to get your money refunded. No matter what though we will make sure to resolve this issue as fast as possible, we apologze profusely for this mixup and we have already taken down the listing to be fixed. Please let us know as soon as possible when you receive this message, if you have any questions please don't hesitate to call us at 800-818-6128 thank you.
> ...


I had ordered 4 of them, my boxes showed up yesterday when I was gone and got the email about the time I got home and the boxes where there. They are 2 bulb fixtures....maybe at $50 a piece I could keep them but not $100! Sent her 2 emails not and havnt heard back....they might be closed for Christmas already


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## falcon223 (Dec 23, 2011)

I think they are closed, but I think they should oner there price. Yea I can get a 6 bulb fixture for that price. They want to give me a 10 dollar coupon. F that. I want my light. Maybe we all email them, and tell them that we will not be buying from them in the future. And we will be posting the crappy email they sent us, for others to see how they do business. 
I have never had a company that made a mistake in the advertised price and not oner it. 

Sorry to get of track professor, thanks for doing this T5 thread.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 23, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> Well the great deal I was to get on a 8 bulb light, Is not going to go. Here is a copy of the email I got to day, and the light is to come today. I will never do business with this company again.Thy will not oner the sale price that was posted, and of coarse they got my money.
> 
> 
> We just discovered an error with this product and for some reason the SKU also known as a Product Code listed as 960195 is for a different item, the 4 foot 2 bulb light system and the price is for that item as well. So unfortunately when we shipped the item we shipped the wrong product to you and charged the cheaper price for the smaller light system. We have a couple options how we can resolve this issue. We can give you an additional discount and you will only have payed $100 for each light and we will send you a free $10 gift certificate to use with any future puchases. Second you can refuse the shipment when it arrives and we will still send you a free gift certificate and we will refund your entire purchase price. If you accept the item we will have to do a return and it will take us longer to get your money refunded. No matter what though we will make sure to resolve this issue as fast as possible, we apologze profusely for this mixup and we have already taken down the listing to be fixed. Please let us know as soon as possible when you receive this message, if you have any questions please don't hesitate to call us at 800-818-6128 thank you.
> ...


Was this the New Waves on Amazon? If so I ordered 2 as well. No emails as of yet.


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## Calrt (Dec 23, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Was this the New Waves on Amazon? If so I ordered 2 as well. No emails as of yet.


Sure was, talked with Jesse about an hour ago. They sent out 15 and he is saying that there is nothing he can do. Said the 2 bulbs cost them $100 each so he cant do better on those either!


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## falcon223 (Dec 23, 2011)

I sent a nasty Email to them. I told them that every company that makes a mistake will always oner the price. And I don't want there 10 dollar discount because I will not buy from them. 
What a bunch of asses.


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## Calrt (Dec 23, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I sent a nasty Email to them. I told them that every company that makes a mistake will always oner the price. And I don't want there 10 dollar discount because I will not buy from them.
> What a bunch of asses.


Let me know how it goes!


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## hyroot (Dec 23, 2011)

report them to the better business bureau. good luck


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## hyroot (Dec 23, 2011)

I know everyone has been back an forth on the fiji's, even me..... From what ive saw the last batch and this batch. The girls in one row on the side with 2 fiji's are swelling up more than the side with one fiji. I have 2 rows of 4 under the t5. now im starting to think the fijis are the best bulbs out of all of them. I plan on buying another t5 in a week or 2. So I wil do a comparison between 2 t5's . One with 4 fiji's and 2 redsuns. Another with 4 redsuns and 2 fiji's.


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## Redoctober (Dec 23, 2011)

Man, I was within 2 keystrokes of buying that New Wave. I'm glad I saw this. I thought something was fishy with that listing. There was no mention of a Christmas sale or anything, and the fixture seemed to be priced way out of range. Not to mention that Hydro Galaxy has a pretty piss poor feedback rating for an Amazon store (70% or something). I've never done business with any vendor that has less than a 90% feedback, and even that's pushing it. Sorry you guys got screwed  I guess the worst that happens is that you pay the full price but it still sux moose cock to get jerked like that! The silver lining might be that the New Wave is a very nice unit imho. Much nicer and sturdier than the Badboy, and it's completely assembled. 

I've had one Flora Sun fail on me but overall I'm impressed with the bulb. Actually I had all Flora Suns in my fixture for the past week until my other bulbs arrived today, when I swapped out for Red Suns and an actinic. Still waiting on my Coral Waves. The Flora Sun seems to have the full balanced spectrum, yes a bit of a wasted green peak, but it is pretty much what the Fiji Purple was supposed to be. Which kind of leads me to believe that if the Fiji Purple was actually anything like its "supposed" spectral graph, it would appear white, like the Flora Sun. This makes me think that it is really much more of a blue spectrum bulb, which may explain why some are having sub-par flowering results with it, because we have been treating it like a balanced, dual spectrum bulb which I don't think it is. Just a hypothesis... 

In fact I am contemplating leaving one half of my 8 bulb fixture all Flora Suns for the rest of flower, or maybe swap one out for a Red Sun. Just got my Red Suns and after reading all of your troubles, I'm not throwing away any of the packaging because I fully anticipate having to send some back. I hope Marine Depot is good about returns!


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## hyroot (Dec 24, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Man, I was within 2 keystrokes of buying that New Wave. I'm glad I saw this. I thought something was fishy with that listing. There was no mention of a Christmas sale or anything, and the fixture seemed to be priced way out of range. Not to mention that Hydro Galaxy has a pretty piss poor feedback rating for an Amazon store (70% or something). I've never done business with any vendor that has less than a 90% feedback, and even that's pushing it. Sorry you guys got screwed  I guess the worst that happens is that you pay the full price but it still sux moose cock to get jerked like that! The silver lining might be that the New Wave is a very nice unit imho. Much nicer and sturdier than the Badboy, and it's completely assembled.
> 
> I've had one Flora Sun fail on me but overall I'm impressed with the bulb. Actually I had all Flora Suns in my fixture for the past week until my other bulbs arrived today, when I swapped out for Red Suns and an actinic. Still waiting on my Coral Waves. The Flora Sun seems to have the full balanced spectrum, yes a bit of a wasted green peak, but it is pretty much what the Fiji Purple was supposed to be. Which kind of leads me to believe that if the Fiji Purple was actually anything like its "supposed" spectral graph, it would appear white, like the Flora Sun. This makes me think that it is really much more of a blue spectrum bulb, which may explain why some are having sub-par flowering results with it, because we have been treating it like a balanced, dual spectrum bulb which I don't think it is. Just a hypothesis...
> 
> In fact I am contemplating leaving one half of my 8 bulb fixture all Flora Suns for the rest of flower, or maybe swap one out for a Red Sun. Just got my Red Suns and after reading all of your troubles, I'm not throwing away any of the packaging because I fully anticipate having to send some back. I hope Marine Depot is good about returns!


the fijis only appear white when next to another bulb. Run the fijis by themselves and you will see how purple they are. Im still sticking with them. At least for now. If you mix blue and red you get purple. If the flora suns appear more white. Then obviously there is more blue energy than red. My 6500 k bulbs have less Than 5% red and appear very white. My aqua blue special has 5 and 10% red and 45% orange and 100% blue . It has a hint of purple. More on te blue side though. But with the added red, orange is why.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 24, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I know everyone has been back an forth on the fiji's, even me..... From what ive saw the last batch and this batch. The girls in one row on the side with 2 fiji's are swelling up more than the side with one fiji. I have 2 rows of 4 under the t5. now im starting to think the fijis are the best bulbs out of all of them. I plan on buying another t5 in a week or 2. So I wil do a comparison between 2 t5's . One with 4 fiji's and 2 redsuns. Another with 4 redsuns and 2 fiji's.


For vegging Id almost be willing to put money that the one with more Fiji's will do better for veg, they have the full blue spectrum as well as the red peak where the Red Suns are almost all Red, and blue wavelengths are needed prominently over red in Veg phase. I'd be interested in seeing a t5 grow through veg with two fixtures, both with 2 blues either 420 or 460, and both with two 6500k's, then one with two Fiji's and one with two Red Suns. Or each with 2 blue then 4 Fiji's /or/ 4 Red Suns. Just to show the response specifically to each bullb, and if the Fiji would work as a suitable replacement for the Red Sun... I AM STILL STEAMING OVER THE FACT THAT 2 OF THE 4 RED SUNS I BOUGHT ARE SHIT and CRAPPED OUT within ONE WEEK!

 <-- 2nd Red Sun, in 8 bulb fixture with half the other tubes turned off, 2nd bulb down is a normal Red Sun, 3rd down is another fucked up tube, half as bright and even dimmer on left side.

 <-- 1st one to go out. Dim/out on one end, bright on the other

Or if anyone plans to get one of the Phillips or Osram/Sylvania Pure Red tubes. They peak at 610nm but otherwise are all red, I'd love to see how the do despite not having that perfect 630 or 660 peak.

Either way, Id be interested to know the results from this and will def stay tuned.


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## organicbynature (Dec 24, 2011)

This is a panel of Flora Suns and Coral Waves. From top to bottom it is FS, CW, FS, CW (the FS look pink and the CW look purple).



The Flora Suns look whiter than this to the eye, but there you go I guess.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

okthanks2 said:


> THIS BETTER NOT BE A WASTE OF $$ because I have spent $750 on T5 bulbs to make this shit happen! Anyway, I emailed the store I purchased the Gro-Lux T5's from and they are OUT OF STOCK. Yeah, thanks for letting me know 3 weeks later. Needless to say that order is CANCELLED! I have now been running FloraSuns and 6500K bulbs half and half in my fixture for veg and it is FANfuckinTASTIC! The plants love that combo and they have doubled in size in only 3 days. I purchased some ATI ProColors since they are super cheap $9.50 a bulb in place of the FloraSuns because they are pretty much identical. Anyway, I'm starting to realize that at least for vegging, plants need more of the full spectrum. I had my half 6500K and half FloraSuns in one area and the PAR only T5's in another, and the 6500K/FloraSun plants are about 10 times bigger. Same everything for nutes and time started.


YOU CANNOT USE ACTINIC/RED ONLY SETUP...
im pretty damn sure i mentioned to have some 75.25 10000k bulbs in the mix...


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> I'm just bustin his balls. Besides I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks it's a bit odd he hasnt posted any new grows since starting the thread.


I have done/posted a total of 2 grows in this thread.... how many have you done?


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Quantum was owned by Amerinada Dist. and recently sold to Discount Hydroponics who also owns C.A.P. and Digilux. Very few people including myself are using Badboys. Most people here have Hydrofarms, Sunblaze, Radiion, New Wave, htg, Tek, Maxlume, various aquarium brands, etc......... He's not pushing their ballasts and he has already said the quantum t5 bulbs are crap. He would of got fired or demoted for that one, so I doubt that he works for Quantum.
> 
> Prof if there is a chance you work for Quantum how about hookin up a homie price on BB??


Nope dopnt work for quantum jsut like the ballast... there is a copycat out there thats Green but i couldent find anyone that sold the damn things...
Aquarium fixtures are too compact to give a good footprint.. if i could afford(Time&Money) to build them i would with the parts i have mentioned here previously... Maybe ill start my own shop


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

tehshyt said:


> I'm planning on getting a badboy any day now to start using this method. I'm wondering if anyone who has experience can tell me what type of heat I can expect from the ballast. My grow space is limited and its possible that the metal of the ballast could actually be touching wood.
> 
> Does the ballast get really hot to the touch? Could this pose a fire hazard? What if there was a half inch of clearance between the ballast and the wood?


Not a fire hazard i can touch the entire ballast/fixture/bulbs without burning myself...


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I know everyone has been back an forth on the fiji's, even me..... From what ive saw the last batch and this batch. The girls in one row on the side with 2 fiji's are swelling up more than the side with one fiji. I have 2 rows of 4 under the t5. now im starting to think the fijis are the best bulbs out of all of them. I plan on buying another t5 in a week or 2. So I wil do a comparison between 2 t5's . One with 4 fiji's and 2 redsuns. Another with 4 redsuns and 2 fiji's.



UHHH DUH!!! i have been premoting them since day one.. theres a reason i use them as my "base" people...


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 24, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> This is a panel of Flora Suns and Coral Waves. From top to bottom it is FS, CW, FS, CW (the FS look pink and the CW look purple).
> 
> View attachment 1952778
> 
> The Flora Suns look whiter than this to the eye, but there you go I guess.


Flora Suns look alot like RedWaves. They would prob look alot like Fiji Purps or Coral Waves if they didnt have the green spike in em View attachment 1952822 I like the 660 spike, its rare. and the red peak is kinda short but its wide, showing a majority of its output in the red range.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 24, 2011)

Just a pic to show how I attach a cheap ass desk fan to my fixture with a binder clip to blow down the length of my tubes. Its really easy with the Radiion 4 bulb fixtures cuz they have the plug on the end to Daisy Chain with.


*as you can see, my leaves are just reaching up towards the light... they love it!


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## falcon223 (Dec 24, 2011)

I wish I could show a pic of my light, but I got screwed. Here is the email I got back. 

0249715-0476202:
1 of New Wave 48 T5 HO Fluorescent Light Fixture 4FT 8 Lamp [ASIN: B000W4VJM2]

------------- Begin message -------------

Ok, well we are very sorry, I wish there was something we could do to resolve this, I am not sure what you meant when you wrote "But you are the first company to not oner your mistake to my satisfaction". Please let us know what we did not do to your satisfaction. We will issue you a full refund as soon as possible and we understand if you do not wish to purchase from us in the future and we were just trying to offer you something on top of your refund. Sorry once again.


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## PetFlora (Dec 24, 2011)

hyroot said:


> I know everyone has been back an forth on the fiji's, even me..... From what ive saw the last batch and this batch. The girls in one row on the side with 2 fiji's are swelling up more than the side with one fiji. I have 2 rows of 4 under the t5. now im starting to think the fijis are the best bulbs out of all of them. I plan on buying another t5 in a week or 2. So I wil do a comparison between 2 t5's . One with 4 fiji's and 2 redsuns. Another with 4 redsuns and 2 fiji's.


I think we are looking for a Fiji replacement that provides Fiji's STATED spectrum but at a lower price. I am using the Wave Tech *Coral Waves + Red Suns*. I think the better test would be same number of Fiji vs Coral Waves My $0.02


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## PetFlora (Dec 24, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> Just a pic to show how I attach a cheap ass desk fan to my fixture with a binder clip to blow down the length of my tubes. Its really easy with the Radiion 4 bulb fixtures cuz they have the plug on the end to Daisy Chain with.
> 
> View attachment 1952829
> *as you can see, my leaves are just reaching up towards the light... they love it!


Excellent idea. I have the same fan. 

You can adjust the aim to gently shake the young plants, too.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I have done/posted a total of 2 grows in this thread.... how many have you done?



i must have missed the second grow. what page is it? i would have assumed you would be posting the most.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> Just a pic to show how I attach a cheap ass desk fan to my fixture with a binder clip to blow down the length of my tubes. Its really easy with the Radiion 4 bulb fixtures cuz they have the plug on the end to Daisy Chain with.
> 
> View attachment 1952829
> *as you can see, my leaves are just reaching up towards the light... they love it!


FYI
COOL YOUR TUBES FROM THE LABEL END ONLY!!! by creating a cool spot on the bulb anywhere else you will damage your phosphors, and overwork your ballasts.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> i must have missed the second grow. what page is it? i would have assumed you would be posting the most.


If you look at my posts through time you will see that my first crop was ravaged by mites, died then had my shit raided by the fuzz who promptly returned my equip with nothing to charge me with(TRUECRYPT USE IT!) ... i relocated and returned to the thread with a new batch of Kandy Kush and sharks breath.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> Flora Suns look alot like RedWaves. They would prob look alot like Fiji Purps or Coral Waves if they didnt have the green spike in em View attachment 1952822 I like the 660 spike, its rare. and the red peak is kinda short but its wide, showing a majority of its output in the red range.


Your misinterpreting that graph.... technically there is MORE green in that bulb than red. and more 440nm than all the light combined. I know you may think im kooky but the spike is relative intensity and the horizontal line is coverage in that NM spectra. you read the graphs from highest peak to lowest in terms of light OUTPUT. thats why the fiji purps and the red suns are SO important to the mix.. their spike intensity in the regions we WANT are the highest we can find...
Read the 
https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13232-scientists-2-cents.html
Specifically
https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/indoor-growing/1687905-led-without-leds-my-first-mbspect.jpg


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## falcon223 (Dec 24, 2011)

Well I got my bulbs to day. And no fixture to put them in.


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## Calrt (Dec 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Your misinterpreting that graph.... technically there is MORE green in that bulb than red. and more 440nm than all the light combined. I know you may think im kooky but the spike is relative intensity and the horizontal line is coverage in that NM spectra. you read the graphs from highest peak to lowest in terms of light OUTPUT. thats why the fiji purps and the red suns are SO important to the mix.. their spike intensity in the regions we WANT are the highest we can find...
> Read the
> https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13232-scientists-2-cents.html
> Specifically
> https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/indoor-growing/1687905-led-without-leds-my-first-mbspect.jpg


I am not sure if this is always true, there are some graphs that break down the percentage in each peak and even with a large peak like that it might only be 8% of the bulbs output.


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## organicbynature (Dec 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Your misinterpreting that graph.... technically there is MORE green in that bulb than red. and more 440nm than all the light combined. I know you may think im kooky but the spike is relative intensity and the horizontal line is coverage in that NM spectra. you read the graphs from highest peak to lowest in terms of light OUTPUT. thats why the fiji purps and the red suns are SO important to the mix.. their spike intensity in the regions we WANT are the highest we can find...
> Read the
> https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13232-scientists-2-cents.html
> Specifically
> https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/indoor-growing/1687905-led-without-leds-my-first-mbspect.jpg


I don't understand why you keep talking about the Fiji this way. The best you can honestly say about it is that it has a good reputation and that it has worked for you. Insisting again that they have a good graph is disingenuous and misleads people who come to this thread. You claim that the Fiji has spike intensity in the regions we want, but the truth is you don't know where the Fiji spikes, true or false?

Also, why are you still claiming that a high peak = high energy use? When I asked you to explain this before you ignored me. My understanding is that energy use can be determined by checking the area under the bar between two set nm points, not just by looking at the height of the peak. If a peak is high but narrow, it should not be using a lot of energy. I don't see how this could be different unless the y-axis is on an order of magnitude, but I do not believe this is the case. Please explain this if you understand it differently.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 24, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I don't understand why you keep talking about the Fiji this way. The best you can honestly say about it is that it has a good reputation and that it has worked for you. Insisting again that they have a good graph is disingenuous and misleads people who come to this thread. You claim that the Fiji has spike intensity in the regions we want, but the truth is you don't know where the Fiji spikes, true or false?
> 
> Also, why are you still claiming that a high peak = high energy use? When I asked you to explain this before you ignored me. My understanding is that energy use can be determined by checking the area under the bar between two set nm points, not just by looking at the height of the peak. If a peak is high but narrow, it should not be using a lot of energy. I don't see how this could be different unless the y-axis is on an order of magnitude, but I do not believe this is the case. Please explain this if you understand it differently.


Lets break this down...
1. Lets just forego the "spectral graph issue for moment." there are aquarium hobbyists and experts ALL OVER THE INTERNET that can provide solid performance reviews for the fijis. I am not the only person using these bulbs and getting results.
2 high peak is NOT ENERGY use.... theres no way to measure that. what the peaks measure is the *Power per unit area per unit wavelength of an illumination...*
In Layman THE HIGHER THE SPIKE THE MORE ENERGY! and Blue light(actinic) carries a higher charge(more energy) than red. while the light may be comprised of a large amount of red spectra that in no way means that the light has MORE POWER.. in fact it has MUCH LESS. just as the same measure of infra red light and gamma radiation ARE NOT EQUAL... the same amount of gamma rays would cook the flesh off your bones. 
Didn't anyone take science classes?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 24, 2011)

Less talk and more pics of big buds folks. Post pics of big buds produced via this method. Big buds.


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## Gastanker (Dec 24, 2011)

Hate to do this but I'm a fish guy - Aquarium hobbyists generally agree that the fiji is terrible for growing aquatic/terrestrial plants - great for growing symbiotic algae in coral and supplementing the visual quality of the more actinic blue hues. Kind of the reason you only see it used on salt water aquariums and never on fresh water planted tanks...

pr0fesseur - could you please take a look at this and tell me where I am going wrong? Or at least what numbers I need to change to make it more accurate - https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-fluorescent-lighting/497875-actinic-linear-flourescents.html


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## organicbynature (Dec 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Lets break this down...
> 1. Lets just forego the "spectral graph issue for moment." there are aquarium hobbyists and experts ALL OVER THE INTERNET that can provide solid performance reviews for the fijis. I am not the only person using these bulbs and getting results.
> 2 high peak is NOT ENERGY use.... theres no way to measure that. what the peaks measure is the *Power per unit area per unit wavelength of an illumination...*
> In Layman THE HIGHER THE SPIKE THE MORE ENERGY! and Blue light(actinic) carries a higher charge(more energy) than red. while the light may be comprised of a large amount of red spectra that in no way means that the light has MORE POWER.. in fact it has MUCH LESS. just as the same measure of infra red light and gamma radiation ARE NOT EQUAL... the same amount of gamma rays would cook the flesh off your bones.
> Didn't anyone take science classes?


1. Vague claims of satisfied aquarium hobbyists is not at all in league with the level of scientific (or at least non-anecdotal) approach of much of this thread, an approach laid out by you yourself. The fact that you started this thread gives you influence that you should be aware of - those who have more recently joined this thread may not realize that your staunch support of the Fiji is based on an entirely different degree and kind of evidence than the rest of the bulbs we have been looking at. The Fiji is the most expensive option with the least hard evidence supporting it and you have been portraying it very differently. As you can see in the post above, there is anecdotal evidence to be found contradicting your claim as well.
2. "high peak is not energy" use yet "the higher the spike the more energy"? But OK, so you're saying it is "power per unit area per unit wavelength of an illumination"...But using that explanation, if the spike is narrow then it has less units of wavelength than if the spike is wide and therefor a narrow spike will be representative of less energy use than a wider one. Gamma radiation? What? What are you saying here?

No offense, but I've taken more science classes than most (I'm no scientist - but it supported my major), and I don't think it's my education that's preventing me from understanding and agreeing with what you're saying.

Edit: That said, I'm still listening and trying to understand where you're coming from.


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## falcon223 (Dec 24, 2011)

I cant wait to try the Fiji. It is a combo thing. You need several bulbs to get the PAR. right.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 24, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I think we are looking for a Fiji replacement that provides Fiji's STATED spectrum but at a lower price. I am using the Wave Tech *Coral Waves + Red Suns*. I think the better test would be same number of Fiji vs Coral Waves My $0.02




View attachment 1953571
We already know the CoralWaves are pretty much a blue bulb with a far red spike at 760nm which is out of the PAR range (but is useful to help induce flowering, not so much for photosynthesis) The Red Suns spike at 630nm which lines up w chlorophyll B and the Fiji Purps SUPPOSEDLy have a 660nm spike which matches Chlorophyll A (but that is only if we believe that they are like the nLite PURple tubes, whose SPD graph was passed off for the Fiji Purple's for awhile, when we really dont know what the Fiji's are)

View attachment 1953572 <-- nLite PURple -discontinued... this is what we all thought was the Fiji Purple... we dont know what the Fiji is tho

View attachment 1953573 <-- Red Suns have this nice Red 630nm Spike, and work well as a flowering tube... BUT ARE SHITTY QUALITY AND I WILL NEVER BUY AGAIN!



View attachment 1953574 <-- Flora Sun's have a nice wide red 660nm peak, with little green and a bit of a blue hump also. I would think this would be good to replace a 6500k or 10k-k for flowering****
View attachment 1953778 <---*** (EDIT added this chart provided by ORGANICBYNATURE as the correct FloraSun chart provided by the mfg, see the post after the next)

*** they look pretty damn similar, except the peaks are slightly off in the 610nm region (understated in the first graph), otherwise the spikes line up pretty well.*** IMO



 <-- RedWaves are also known as ColorWave. bottom row middle. nice purple color but mostly blue with FAR 760nm red (out of PAR range)


My logic thinks that the Fiji Purple would be able to replace one Blue tube as well as a Red Sun... that is IF the Fiji's can be proven to have useful Red wavelengths. They could be like the WavePoint Coral Wave (which looks pretty purple to me) and be primarily blue with a FAR red spike that wont aid photosynthesis as well as the Red Sun does.
Since there is no SPD for the Fiji's, we need some kind of experiment to prove that the red in them is useful to photosynthesis and is not just a Red that blends with blue to make a pretty purple color. DAMN why doesnt KZ put out a SPD for their Purps???

We may all have different reasons for wanting to know, you may be looking for a cheaper alternative (which would def be a bonus) Im just looking for something to replace the Red Suns... I was so optimistic when people mentioned their questionable quality, while I waited to get mine... then 2 crap out within a week... Im peeved. I dont care about cost, Ill pay for the KZ's if I know what the hell they are and that the red in them can suitably replace the red in the Red Suns.

I forgot if I read somewhere in the hundreds of previous pages.... has anyone contacted KZ about a SPD for the purps?


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 24, 2011)

Dont get me wrong, I dont think the Fiji's would be a bad bulb, Im sure they have some good blue in them, its hard to find a tube that isnt loaded with useful blues. I just want to know where the Red in them peaks at... is it under 600nm or over 700nm? Does the red just make it look pretty or is it a usefull red that I can use for flowering. If the red is PAR useful, I could replace one 460nm blue and one Red Sun with 2 Fiji Purples. You couldnt do that with CoralWaves even though they have that nice purple color. Im sure the Fiji's grow great... but we're all spending big$ on tubes that are for experimentation to find out what works best... We want to KNOW what works best so we dont have to buy bulbs we will end up not using. 

I absolutely love the work that some scientist guy did for Prof, using all the bulbs to graph the light/PAR distribution of his set-up... it would be absolute proof of concept and a guide for exactly what to use... IF THE FIJI PURPLE GRAPH HE WAS USING IS CORRECT. Who knows, it could actually be exactly like the nLite PURple SPD but we have no idea, do we? I think this guy already did the leg work for us and I reccommend reading it, just remember the Fiji SPD he was using is only speculative.

https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13232-scientists-2-cents.html <-- under Prof's signature SCIENTISTS 2 CENTS


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## organicbynature (Dec 24, 2011)

I don't think you've got the correct chart for Flora Suns. Here is the one they sent me when I emailed them:


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 24, 2011)

organicbynature said:


> I don't think you've got the correct chart for Flora Suns. Here is the one they sent me when I emailed them:
> 
> View attachment 1953599



hmmm... could be, I just google image searched it and came up with the other one. If that one came from them, I'd take yours as accurate then... and it doesnt look that bad either. I'd say even with this graph I'd still use it as a replacement for a 6500k or other daylight bulb in my assortment. nice wide swath of red with blue, and even the green isnt entirely wasted energy... not bad.

good lookin out organic


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 24, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Your misinterpreting that graph.... technically there is MORE green in that bulb than red. and more 440nm than all the light combined. I know you may think im kooky but the spike is relative intensity and the horizontal line is coverage in that NM spectra. you read the graphs from highest peak to lowest in terms of light OUTPUT. thats why the fiji purps and the red suns are SO important to the mix.. their spike intensity in the regions we WANT are the highest we can find...
> Read the
> https://www.rollitup.org/blogs/blog13232-scientists-2-cents.html
> Specifically
> https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/indoor-growing/1687905-led-without-leds-my-first-mbspect.jpg




View attachment 1954037
This graph for the Aquaticlife 650 (not a bad bulb either) shows that while the peak on an SPD may not be the highest, it can still be the dominant output color. The red spike in this graph is not very high at all, but it is wide and comprises the highest percentage of output. Sure the green peak is highest, and the waves at that particular freq are prob more intense than the red, but the overall output is much smaller and will not come into play as much as the Red. This bulb actually has 40% output in the orange red 600nm+ range 

Just pulling numbers out of my ass to show example. 
If a narrow green spike comprises 5 units of energy at 552nm, 70 at 553nm, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], then 5 again at 558nm, you can add up the energy output at each specific wavelength to get an approx energy output in that range, this example would be 5+70+300+600+300+70+5 =1350 total units of energy in that green spike. 

If a red spike comprises 5 at 600nm, [email protected], [email protected], [email protected], [email protected] etc etc etc up to a peak that only reaches maybe 300 max (half the green spike) @630nm, then back to [email protected], This wide peak would only show half as strong on the graph, but would comprises much more total output in this range. 5+10+20+30+40+50+60+70 on and on to 300 at 630nm, then the peak dropping off back down to 5 at 660nm, would total roughly 9310 total units of energy output overall throughout that spike. 

If you're going strictly by the highest number reached in a peak, then yes that one specific wavelength would have more power than the other peak, but the peaks are wide and comprise many wavelengths within them


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## organicbynature (Dec 25, 2011)

I remember looking at this Roseate graph a while ago when I decided I liked the Flora Suns (it helped me get over the green spike). Not a bad bulb to my eye. Handy chart on the side! 

Thanks for posting this example. This is exactly how I understand it.

Pr0f?


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 25, 2011)

Most tube manufacturers source their tri-band phosphors from China, where they predominantly have a peak at 610nm and 549nm. Blue phosphors are much more widely available and researched due to demand for Aquarium use, but unfortunately horticultural fluorescents arent used commercially for flowering enough to drive demand for the development/research into the red phosphors... so for now most mfg's use Chinese tri-band phosphors. Look at a ton of SPD's like I have and you'll see how common those peaks are. bulbs with a red peak above 610nm or with no green spike are pretty rare and prob pretty expensive also.



On another note, sorry for hijacking this thread and bombarding everyone with my ramblings. i appreciate the conversation and little arguments here and there that all contribute to the building of knowledge and us all improving our grows. Big props to the Prof for starting this thread, he may not have been the first but this is the most popular thread for T5 users and got me into it. Now Im balls deep! And Im loving that my plants are growing too fast to keep up!
everyone should add to Prof's petition to create a dedicated T5 category ------> https://www.rollitup.org/make-your-requests/488816-t5-growers-petition-category-status.html

*Happy Festivus!
*


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 25, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> View attachment 1954037
> This graph for the Aquaticlife 650 (not a bad bulb either) shows that while the peak on an SPD may not be the highest, it can still be the dominant output color. The red spike in this graph is not very high at all, but it is wide and comprises the highest percentage of output. Sure the green peak is highest, and the waves at that particular freq are prob more intense than the red, but the overall output is much smaller and will not come into play as much as the Red. This bulb actually has 40% output in the orange red 600nm+ range
> 
> Just pulling numbers out of my ass to show example.
> ...


You clearly dont understand how to measure energy. Light like all waveforms comprises of ENERGY not Color. the color is the reaction to the matter that the photons interact with, then are reflected BACK to your eye.
You CANNOT pull numbers out of your ass to prove a point. Luminous energy density is less the higher the NM range that you measure. second that graph has no measurement except nm range, that could be measuring how many potatoes you grow at that range... 
Measure something with a ruler or a calculator or leave the math to people who understand the concept. an SPD chart can use different measurements and meters to make these readings. the same bulb can be used on two different meters and give different results
FOR EXAMPLE. USING THIS CHART WE SHOULD ALL BE GROWING WITH 60W INCANDESCENTS..
PLants use Photon ENERGY the higher the energy the more photosynthesis. 
If we were to use your example we would have to use lights that put out 40% of their light output in the WEAKEST energy that it produces... thats like running a car on 20% octane.....


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## falcon223 (Dec 25, 2011)

Happy birthday Jesus.. 

And Mary Christmas to you all. 

I see you know nothing about octane. Thats OK. 
I was a math genius before the ARMY got me, now I am a broken man.
So if you still have a brain ,,[ and I think most here do ] I love your in put. I love this science shit.
I will post my results , but it will have to wait in till next grow. I think in February.

Thanks professor.


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## PetFlora (Dec 25, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> FYI
> COOL YOUR TUBES FROM THE LABEL END ONLY!!! by creating a cool spot on the bulb anywhere else you will damage your phosphors, and overwork your ballasts.


Another option is to put a small fan above the ballast blowing UP to pull heat away from the bulbs. You can also slightly tilt the fixture + fan facing UP at the highest point


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## PetFlora (Dec 25, 2011)

Calrt said:


> I am not sure if this is always true, there are some graphs that break down the percentage in each peak and even with a large peak like that it might only be 8% of the bulbs output.


I think the misunderstanding comes from the fact that the Vertical Intensity component of the graphs varies. Some are in whole points (1.0>) where many are in decimals (>0.01) which makes them appear stronger when they are actually not.

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/vision/cie.html 
​ COMMISSION INTERNATIONALE DE L'ECLAIRAGE / INTERNATIONAL COMMISSION ON ILLUMINATION / INTERNATIONALE BELEUCHTUNGSKOMMISSION http://www.cie.co.at/cie/
[h=3]Intensity[/h] W/m[SUP]2[/SUP] Physical unit; energy per time and per area (flux); independent of wavelength, total amount of energy integrated across spectrum.
PAR / Photon flux photobiology &#8211; photosynthesis: number of photons per area per time (photon flux) in photosynthetic active range: 400-700 nm. Not defined below 400 / above 700 nm). Measured photons independent of their individual energy content (E = h * n), because for photosynthesis, a blue, more energetic photon (lower wavelength = higher frequency) has similar rates of photosynthesis than a red, less energetic photon. Thus, only the number of photon counts, not their energy content (in broadband light &#8211; &#8216;white light&#8217. Be careful when using this assumption with narrowband (&#8216;monochromatic&#8217 light.
Lux only usefull / defined for visibility of human eye from 400 to 700 nm, peak 555 nm. Not defined outside this wavelength. For human eye, the same radiant energy flux (W/m[SUP]2[/SUP]) is perceived brighets for green light (555 nm), and almost invisible / less bright in the blue (400-450) or red end of spectrum (650-700 nm).
Unit Conversion depends on spectral composition. If the spectrum is known (spectro-radiometer, W/m2 per nm), than one can convert, for each wavelength band, from W/m[SUP]2[/SUP] to lux or PAR.
 Some rules of thumb can be applied for known, broadband light sources:
Full sunlight = 100,000 lux = 450 W/m[SUP]2[/SUP] = 2,000 mol/m[SUP]2[/SUP]/s.
[h=3]Spectral Composition[/h] Color different spectral composition (intensity at each wavelength) is perceived as different color. 
Some light sources produce narrow bandwith light, such as spectral emission lines of mercury 256 nm, Sodium,.. or LEDs (typ. 20-40 nm bandwidth at 50% intensity.
Other light sources have broad (white) emission &#8211; filament light bulbs, fluorescent lights, high pressure sodium lamps, arc lamps.


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## PetFlora (Dec 25, 2011)

I see the Pr0f is testy this christmas morning. Not that it has any special meaning to me. I do hope Undercover Cop takes the jabs in stride. Imagine how much shorter this thread would be IF we actually had a correct Fiji graph. lol Happy Holidays!


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## Calrt (Dec 25, 2011)

All I want for Christmas is the perfect T5 bulb! Lol. Merry Christmas all!


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 25, 2011)

Calrt said:


> All I want for Christmas is the perfect T5 bulb! Lol. Merry Christmas all!


you an me both.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 25, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> I see the Pr0f is testy this christmas morning. Not that it has any special meaning to me. I do hope Undercover Cop takes the jabs in stride. Imagine how much shorter this thread would be IF we actually had a correct Fiji graph. lol Happy Holidays!


Nah just late night and wrapping a gazillion presents...
you cant criticize something than use that very thing as proof of point. second some graphs are measured in luminious flux, others are measured in intensity...
you can t just measure the charts peaks and say "well its 25% percent 410nm etc.." because thats not a representation of the total energy of that given spectra... that completely IGNORES the energy output of that spectra... ITS A GRAPH you have to use the vertical and horizontal measurements..
those high peaks may be narrow but make up to 40% of the TOTAL ENERGY output...


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## hyroot (Dec 25, 2011)

Im thinking of adding some uvb lights or heat lamps. to run by themselves for the for th first 15 min and last 15 min only. Using the IR to mimic sunrise and sunset


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## organicbynature (Dec 25, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Nah just late night and wrapping a gazillion presents...
> you cant criticize something than use that very thing as proof of point. second some graphs are measured in luminious flux, others are measured in intensity...
> you can t just measure the charts peaks and say "well its 25% percent 410nm etc.." because thats not a representation of the total energy of that given spectra... that completely IGNORES the energy output of that spectra... ITS A GRAPH you have to use the vertical and horizontal measurements..
> those high peaks may be narrow but make up to 40% of the TOTAL ENERGY output...


So "ITS A GRAPH you have to use the vertical and horizontal measurements.." but it doesn't matter if a peak is narrow, it still takes up to 40% of the total energy output? If you're not contradicting yourself then I just have no idea what you're talking about, I'm afraid. "Narrow" = description of it's horizontal presence...

"you can't just measure the charts peaks and say 'well its 25% percent 410nm etc..' because thats not a representation of the total energy of that given spectra" yet "those high peaks may be narrow but make up to 40% of the TOTAL ENERGY output..."

Again, if you're not contradicting yourself then I don't understand what you're trying to say. Why can't you look at a chart and "measure" the RELATIVE INTENSITY between different ranges of spectra by looking at the AREA under the curve for that range? As long as the y-axis scale is linear I don't see why this would be incorrect.

The Roseate graph literally shows you the percentages of light that it is emitting in difference spectra. Look at the 400-440 section - this sections contains one of the two highest peaks and one of the two second-highest peaks for the bulb, yet is only responsible for 15.5% of the bulb's output. Please explain this graph (previous page) according to your SPD-world-view.

Does *anybody* here understand pr0f's point? Can you explain it?


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## Endur0xX (Dec 25, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Im thinking of adding some uvb lights or heat lamps. to run by themselves for the for th first 15 min and last 15 min only. Using the IR to mimic sunrise and sunset


I have been running my UVB lamp every other hour for an hour since the beginning of my grow, so 6hours a day with no apparent damage to the plant, in fact a shit loads of trich on the plant that gets the most. Why is everybody so careful with the UVB? mine is 125W reptile lamp so it's not like I have a weak UVB light.


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## MurshDawg (Dec 25, 2011)

I hope everyone is having an excellent holiday! [video=youtube;j_PJ64BW50I]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_PJ64BW50I&feature=plcp&context=C39bad0eU DOEgsToPDskKomXzBcx6UXKzc75pJhL1w[/video]


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## falcon223 (Dec 25, 2011)

I would say don't put to much in to the graph. I dought any of them are vary accurate. Also what about the bulbs that don't have a graph? There may be some relay good bulbs out there with no graph. I my self think the graph is bullshit. A sales pitch, if you no what I mean. These company's that make and sale the bulbs, will have a graph dune by the contract manufacturer, and that graph is false or for a one time run. Just how many times do you think the phosphorus, or the coating is bought from the same supplier? Well I tell you it is bought from the cheapest supplier. And that supplier goes out of business, then what? 

What I am trying to say is the graphs are not the Gospel. And it appears that you guys think that it is. 
The company that manufacture or the sealer will do what ever it takes to move the product. I call BS to the graphs. 
If take 3 red suns put them in a machine that messieurs the par on a graph you will most likely get 3 different graphs. So don't put to much Faith in the graph on the box.


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## falcon223 (Dec 25, 2011)

Trail and arrear. This is the only way to do it.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 25, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> You clearly dont understand how to measure energy. Light like all waveforms comprises of ENERGY not Color. the color is the reaction to the matter that the photons interact with, then are reflected BACK to your eye.
> You CANNOT pull numbers out of your ass to prove a point. Luminous energy density is less the higher the NM range that you measure. second that graph has no measurement except nm range, that could be measuring how many potatoes you grow at that range...
> Measure something with a ruler or a calculator or leave the math to people who understand the concept. an SPD chart can use different measurements and meters to make these readings. the same bulb can be used on two different meters and give different results
> FOR EXAMPLE. USING THIS CHART WE SHOULD ALL BE GROWING WITH 60W INCANDESCENTS..
> ...


I hope we've had a nice holliday and got some rest, and arent so snippy now. I understand that some actually do attack you/your theories so Im not bothered if you get stuck in defensive mode. Ill give up that those are some good points, not entirely wrong, but Id still argue that there is a balance between the intensity of a specific freq and overall coverage throughout a wavelength range. 
regardless, My main thought right now is finding bulbs with suitable red output so we can get really start to compare with a high watt HID. You keep mentioning the Fiji purp (and Im not really knocking them either) but do we really know the red is useable or is it like the Coral Wave which looks nice and purple but has little PAR usable red. who knows? lets find out


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## PetFlora (Dec 26, 2011)

I am searching for answers. Will post here, as I find links that might clear the air, so look for Edits. 

Best article so far

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2006-05/sj/index.php#0Another artifact of using the CCT arises from the fact that a single number is once again being used to characterize the SPD of the lamp. It is very possible that two very different spectral power density functions can have the same CCT, as shown in the Figure 7 below (I TRIED COPYING URL & IMAGE, BUT NEITHER WORKS. SCROLL DOWN IN THE ARTICLE TO SEE Light sources with different spectral distributions but with the same CCT are called metameric light sources.
Spectral power distribution of two metameric light sources:





 

Figure 7: The SPD on the left is that of an incandescent lamp with a CCT of 2856 K. The SPD on the right is of a red, green and blue LED mixed spectrum that is metameric with the incandescent lamp. 
[/URL]
[/COLOR]


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## mipainpatient (Dec 26, 2011)

Love the thread guys, been quietly watching for quite some time. Prof, especially props on all the work, but others too, UCDWC, murshdawg, all you guys are a real inspiration. Here is a late christmas gift from me:
CLEARANCE ON CORAL AND REEF WAVE BULBS $9.99 (free shipping over $49 and no extra ship for some reason too)
coral:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13821+23587&pcatid=23587
reef:
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13821+21451&pcatid=21451

I like them both for different reasons and was pretty sure I'd seen others feeling the same way,
sorry if someone already posted this but it is the cheapest I've seen and I've been looking for months. 
Buds of luck to all of you and happy upcoming new year. Maybe if I have time I'll post again later with some really really interesting academic studies I found regarding cryptochrome.
Peace,
MPP
p.s. just re-read undercover's post at the top of the page, love your grows btw man. I recently uncovered a study linking far-red wavelengths (700-1000 nm) and over all PAR adsorption. It seems the ratio of this range to "PAR" (referring to 400-700nm range as PAR) determines the rate of adsorption. So yes it is useful if not directly. I haven't had the time to read through the study line for line but I will add anything else I learn.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 26, 2011)

mipainpatient said:


> Love the thread guys, been quietly watching for quite some time. Prof, especially props on all the work, but others too, UCDWC, murshdawg, all you guys are a real inspiration. Here is a late christmas gift from me:
> CLEARANCE ON CORAL AND REEF WAVE BULBS $9.99 (free shipping over $49 and no extra ship for some reason too)
> coral:
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?c=3578+3733+13821+23587&pcatid=23587
> ...


these are 24" bulbs


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 26, 2011)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> these are 24" bulbs


Petmountain.com has the same price, 48" 54w. Free shipping over 49$


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## overTHEman (Dec 26, 2011)

The coral waves seem like a good bulb as an early bud stimulator and blue for the next flowering. Is the overal consensus that it is a quality bulb?


*Week 5*

Trichomes are starting to develop and stretch has stopped. Still fighting the phosphorus burn.









On the Fiji Purples; WHO KNOWS. It's a bulb that will make light and grow plants. So are the coral waves. And the red suns, colormaxes, super blues, and 6,500k daylight. This incessant discussion of whether or not the Fiji Purple is the "ultimate bulb" or if it "can be trusted" is pretty silly. This thread should keep to its intended nature of experimentation. 

So make a plan, tell us about it and be detailed. Get your bulbs, stick to the plan, and show us the results. We would love to see what happens - success or failure. The only way the efficacy of any of these bulbs will be determined is through repeated experimentation.

"Graphs are not the gospel." Ahmen falcon223.



Happy growing.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 26, 2011)

Im by no means slamming them and Ive heard nothing but good reviews about their performance and quality. Im just kinda peeved how KZ doesnt provide any info about their tubes. Im just really curious at this point. Ive been emailing them and their response I think that they just purchase their tubes from an outside manufacturer, and pay for the right to put their name on em... Im documenting my conversation with KZ in my journal and will post here when Im done (I dont want to clutter this thread with ALL my BS, I already post here too much lol) So far they just replied with a 3 sentence form letter with no answers to any of my questions... we'll see where it goes lol.

I have an interest in the red bulbs because its the middle of winter now and my temps are just under max, so in the summer when its 115 outside I wont be able run my HPS at all and I will have a T5 solo grow, I just want to find a good RED blend for flowering (without using Red Suns because to me they are SHIT!)

I think this all falls under the original intended nature of said experimentation.


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## overTHEman (Dec 26, 2011)

Undercover Cop,

You are a great resource to this thread and have DONE great things here. I was speaking in general about this thread. It's hard to participate in discussions of "bests" when new in the room. Positivity and openmindedness will facilitate the success of this thread. 

Regarding KZ, my correspondence with Thomas Pohl,

"Hello, 

I would like to start by apologizing for this inquiry in English, my experience with the German language is very limited. 

I have kept reef and coral marine aquariums since I was a young boy. The ritualistic, parental nature of this activity has centered me in times of toil and excited me in times of sadness. To care for a marine ecosystem and watch it grow and thrive has become so pervasive in my life, it is now a career path. 

As a graduate student at **** State University working for the Marine and Aquatic Life department, I am studying the effect of particular lighting sources on coral growth in the context of reef restoration. The study is very involved and requires very particular statistics on the outcome of the experiment.

A brief overview of the study:
An involved view of bulbs/lighting sources as they relate to different stages of coral life from origin to mature growth. There is to be a control tank for each of the three forms of coral we will be using and a minimum of four experimental tanks per control. The tanks will be kept at the same specifications and only the lighting is to be changed. The students will use bulbs as they deem appropriate for use. 

I have and currently do use your bulbs in my home reef. The Super Blue and Fiji Purple are two of my personal favorites. Though I do not have an emotional interest in seeing your bulbs outperform others, I would like to be able to include them in my study. My supervisor has indicated that the specifics of EACH bulb used must be available to the students for a final statistical comparison. 

There are many brands we are considering; UVL, WavePoint, ReptiSun, Giesmann, to name a few. Since I have personally seen wonderful results with your bulbs, I would like to be able to include them as well.

However, since the spectral radiance charts for both the Super Blue and Fiji Purple are not available, the department will not allow the usage of either. 

Here is my question: are the spectral radiance charts for your bulbs available for research/restoration purposes? If they are not available, are there bulbs with similar spectral output that could be used for comparison?

I am not asking for this information to be released to the public, I am in need for the purposes of this study. 

Any help in this matter will be greatly appreciated.


Dankeschon,
*** ****
**** State University"


"Hi ***,
all of my products and also the tubes are the result of the practical
work with corals in my live, i work now 27 Jears on that. I make that
way with pulps. I speak with my producer what light i need , than i
get from every tube 8-10 different ones to test on my corals. That
what we sell is the best what we can produce in time. I hope that
answer is ok for you.

Mit freundlichen Grüssen / Best regards
Thomas Pohl"


Only a nihilist could say no to reef-restoration. 

...

My experience thus far with the red sun is nothing short of amazing. It's a great bulb - the available red spectrum is fundamentally unique and perfect for our use. If you can get your hands on some that work well, it might be worth your while to do so.



It's about experimentation, something that clearly doesn't scare you. Keep on growing and showing.

Thank you.

P.S. Your mini DWCoffee-buckets rock, any chance you have a pic of those plants to date?


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 26, 2011)

*overTHEman* 
wow, I can appreciate all of that. Im a sucker for compliments lol. I didnt think I was the only one that had contacted KZ, and I got the same response, only worded slightly better (someone proofread his form letter for him in english.) Im gonna try to push him to at least tell me if he can or cannot get a graph from the actual bulb maker. Ill post when Im done. I actually do like/love the Red Sun's, and they definately are unique (I only know of two others that are similar from Phillips and Sylvania but they dont match the red of the Red Suns) Im just still peeved about having 2of4 go out in a week, and am still waiting to hear if/when AS will send replacements for both. I plan to get the Fiji's when I get my next T5 fixture so Ill see first hand then 

I appreciate all the contributions from everyone here!

Stay tuned, Im working on a DIY bubblebucket thread to document my method there, prob post tomorrow under DWC/Bubbleponics or DIY. Thanks again 


 << had to kill these three males yesterday, now Im down to these two in flower and two in the veg box starting to sex ...one may be herm  12 beans sprout and only 3 females?! fucking shitty cartel brick bagseeds 
View attachment 1957105


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## overTHEman (Dec 27, 2011)

Undercover Cop,

Looks great, love the nodal spacing and thick stem. I'll keep an eye out for that thread.


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## overTHEman (Dec 27, 2011)

PAR T5ers,

First, I apologize for getting off topic. 

Second, a local pet store is selling Coralife bulbs. The Colormax, 10,000k, and Actinic are available for $13 each. 

Does anyone have experience with any of these bulbs? What did you think?


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## okthanks2 (Dec 27, 2011)

overTHEman said:


> PAR T5ers,
> 
> First, I apologize for getting off topic.
> 
> ...


Ya, I use the 6500K bulbs, they work very well


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## overTHEman (Dec 27, 2011)

okthanks2,

can you elaborate on your usage of the 6.500k and its benefits?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 27, 2011)

Chalk me up to another guy that got fucked on the Amazon deal through Hydro Galaxy using Sunlight as their drop shipper.

They said they are going to make good on the deal and will send an RMA and fix the situation once Sunlight Supply is done with their inventory.


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## falcon223 (Dec 28, 2011)

I sent two nasty emails. I gess thay got the message?


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## PetFlora (Dec 28, 2011)

I believe Amazon will step in on your behalf, but you gotta let them know.

Hey I saw some awesome aquarium bulb buds on Club T5 that I haven't seen here. WTF guys? Pr0f deserves them to be posted here.


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## MurshDawg (Dec 28, 2011)

here's some interesting info that corroborates Pr0fesseur's methods. http://web.ncf.ca/bf250/plantlumen.html


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## Calrt (Dec 28, 2011)

Day 19 update, they have done great since day 10, all 4 Red suns still looks good too....It looks like the HPS is now growing larger then the T5s....as of today I pulled my 2 coral waves out and replaced them with a Fiji and a 454. I am wondering if the Coral Waves can give them a good flowing jump start but not great at keeping them going with the far red and deep blue. The T5s were flowering faster the first 15 days. I wish I knew what the Fijis were so i could try to match the missing spectrum's! Maybe I was missing that 450nm range and the Fijis are closer to the CW blue spectrum in the 420nm range?

*Strain: Lemon Kush
Lights: 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast.
T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 4 Red Suns, 3 Fijis, 1 454
Temps with the lights on 75-77 degrees Off around 62-65
RH 23-30*


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## hyroot (Dec 28, 2011)

check out these t5's they run for the same price as badboys. they run on 120 and 240 also and are linkable. I first read about these lights in maximum yield


http://www.mavericksun.com/mother-ho-t5-fluorescent/




I found pricing on a site called http://www.newerasupply.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=37_60&products_id=96

could not find any reviews on that shop. i emailed maverick sun though.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 28, 2011)

hyroot said:


> check out these t5's they run for the same price as badboys. they run on 120 and 240 also and are linkable. I first read about these lights in maximum yield
> 
> 
> http://www.mavericksun.com/mother-ho-t5-fluorescent/
> ...


I would stay AWAY form anything that links together... ESPECIALLY with a ballast! why you may ask? well simple answer...
DIRTY POWER! (line noise) & Surge!!!!
one ballast faulting can take out another, cheap ballasts are sensitive to line noise and small surges, remember ladies and gents the electronic ballasts dont like to be faulted... a small surge would cause the ballast to "hot start" and thereby degrade or fail.. 
can you imagine a cascade hotstart? i shudder to think of it... EVERY BALLAST/FIXTURE deserves its own CLEAN POWER SOURCE....

http://www.amazon.com/APC-LE600-Automatic-Voltage-Regulator/dp/B00009RA5Z


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## Gastanker (Dec 28, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> I would stay AWAY form anything that links together... ESPECIALLY with a ballast! why you may ask? well simple answer...
> DIRTY POWER! (line noise) & Surge!!!!
> one ballast faulting can take out another, cheap ballasts are sensitive to line noise and small surges, remember ladies and gents the electronic ballasts dont like to be faulted... a small surge would cause the ballast to "hot start" and thereby degrade or fail..
> can you imagine a cascade hotstart? i shudder to think of it... EVERY BALLAST/FIXTURE deserves its own CLEAN POWER SOURCE....
> ...


That is super confusing. So a single bulb t5 is one ballast, a 2 bulb is two ballasts linked together - each ballast still fires separately and each goes through a softstart if its ballast is a softstart ballast, if one ballast fails it has no impact at all on the other ballast - why is this 2 bulb fixture worse than the 1 bulb fixture? Are you saying that 8 bulb badboys are bad? They have a bunch of ballasts in parallel. How would linking in parallel create dirty energy? 

8 single bulb t5 fixtures plugged into the same power strip is equivalent to 8 single bulb t5 fixtures linked to each other in parallel...


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## Redoctober (Dec 29, 2011)

Red Suns FUCKING BLOW!!! Who the fuck built these things! Did they manufacture them with their ass! I ordered 8 of them because of all the bad reports so I knew I'd need extras. Out of the 4 I had in 2 separate fixtures, the one in my Badboy has already failed completely, and ALL THREE in my New Wave have bad shadow spots on them. I twisted them around 180 degrees to try to use the other sides, and now the shadows have appeared there too. I'll probably lose all 3 within the week. So after 1 week with these bulbs, NOT A SINGLE ONE is working properly. WTF! I feel like we are all completely trapped with the Red Suns, as there doesn't seem to be any other bulb to replace it for flower. I know it is not my fixture that's causing the problem because I have two completely different ones. 

Has anyone tried the Quantum 2900K flower bulbs? I know we don't have a spectrum for those either, and I'm sure Quantum won't release it, but I'm ready to try anything else at this point. It's going to get VERY expensive to keep having to pay shipping costs to return these piece of shit Red Suns. I haven't even contacted Marine Depot yet to see if they'll even take em back. 

I know we don't have much choice, but I'd stay away from Red Suns. They're just a giant headache


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## Arabic (Dec 29, 2011)

First I'd like to say I'm currently on page 97 of this thread and intend on reading it all, but I think I've found the best 48" T5 that covers the best red spectrum.. after some looking. 

we know that chlorophyll A and B peaks at 642nm and 662nm, check out this bulb

It's by Aquamedic, its called a "Planta" bulb. http://www.aqua-medic.com/t5_bulbs.shtml googling it brings up plenty of discussions about this light on aquarium forums, it's been around for a while! I think this is pr0f's secret bulb? 

Also I don't know why so many are suggesting the 454's and 75.25's, they Suck imo. And since we don't know the spectral distribution of that fuji purple, we don't know what it is doing. So I'd say toss that out too and go with ATI Blue Plus (for 450nm) and UVL Super Actinic (for 435nm) since those two ensure the blue spectrum is covered for both Cholorophyll at the blue end. I GUESS you could change out the Super Actinic for the Coral Wave if you think light at 740-780nm is beneficial, even at the sacrifice of like 35-40% of the bulb. But the fact that 100% of your light is nearly peaking at 420nm make the super actinic and blue plus great. Even though you have the charts you all have bulbs with high spikes of useless colors (454, 72.25, red sun) What's your reasoning behind those bulbs?

As for red, I'd have to see what you guys think about that Planta bulb, I think the Red Suns are garbage, you need red light that peaks at 640nm and 660nm, if you look at Red Sun charts you would see that ALL of the red is lost at 640nm... making them useless. 

I think you should replace the rest with 6500k grow bulbs... any spectrums on those?


Edit: looked around a bit and found Aquafloro by Gieseman. It'd be good for completing the spectrum in a "veg" combination. 


I veg for 1 month currently under my 8 bulb T5.. I'm putting a divider inbetween next cycle and changing 4 of the bulbs for the best veg combo and IMO that would be

1 ATI Blue Plus
1 UBL Super Actinic
1 Aquafloro
1 undecided... But I am so desperate to test the Fiji under a spectroradiometer. Anyone have one layin around?


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 29, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Red Suns FUCKING BLOW!!! Who the fuck built these things! Did they manufacture them with their ass! I ordered 8 of them because of all the bad reports so I knew I'd need extras. Out of the 4 I had in 2 separate fixtures, the one in my Badboy has already failed completely, and ALL THREE in my New Wave have bad shadow spots on them. I twisted them around 180 degrees to try to use the other sides, and now the shadows have appeared there too. I'll probably lose all 3 within the week. So after 1 week with these bulbs, NOT A SINGLE ONE is working properly. WTF! I feel like we are all completely trapped with the Red Suns, as there doesn't seem to be any other bulb to replace it for flower. I know it is not my fixture that's causing the problem because I have two completely different ones.
> 
> Has anyone tried the Quantum 2900K flower bulbs? I know we don't have a spectrum for those either, and I'm sure Quantum won't release it, but I'm ready to try anything else at this point. It's going to get VERY expensive to keep having to pay shipping costs to return these piece of shit Red Suns. I haven't even contacted Marine Depot yet to see if they'll even take em back.
> 
> I know we don't have much choice, but I'd stay away from Red Suns. They're just a giant headache


Kelly from aquarium specialty said she's had 8 different customers recently have issues (and is currently out and has no more to send), and she said UVL told her they've had no complaints yet. Ive been looking at the geiseman Aquaflora and the Aquamedic Planta (Geiseman makes Aquamedic's bulbs) Ill prob have AS replace my shitty Red Suns with Fiji's just so I have some to compare.

edit... lmfao I wrote this while Arabic was posting his about the plantas lol. Good call Arabic


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## hyroot (Dec 29, 2011)

I know how electricity works. it moves like water path of least resistance. I had to take electrician classes when I as going to audio school. Prof so long as its grounded and you have a surge suppressor or an uninterupted power supply, using copper or nickel (best) wiring you will be fine. Dont ever use gold wiring. Uts more susceptable to power surges and frequency interference. I had hydrofarms and sunblazes linking all together for over a year and nothing ever happened. Now the badboys. If they linked togetjer then maybe that would happen since they are so half ass built.

back in school wed to deal with and learn to prevent and repai thousands of watts on over a million dollars worth of studio equipment. Mixing console, racks, and computers. same thing applied to that. Those put out a gnarly amount of heat. Ac had to run 24/7.


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## Arabic (Dec 29, 2011)

also look up the aqua medic ocean blues.. they have high peaks at 400-450nm. usually you'd need two bulbs to hit both of those (one at 430nm and one at 450nm). Damn.. so many possibilities. These aqua medics seem golden though, right?

http://www.aqua-medic.com/t5_bulbs.shtml

I feel like I've unearthed gold, is the ocean blue not the perfect Blue spectrum? as well as the right? 3 ocean blue 1 planta for veg, we don't need a broad spectrum. we need a LOT of a small spectrum.


waiting to see what others say before I buy these, with my luck it'll be one of those shitty specialty bulbs Pr0f was talking about way earlier


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## organicbynature (Dec 29, 2011)

The Planta looks like a nice bulb to me!

A quick search didn't turn up anywhere to buy it though.


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## Arabic (Dec 29, 2011)

http://www.aquasythe.com/Departments/Lighting/Fluorescent-Lighting/T5-Fluorescent-Aquarium-Lighting/T5-Aquarium-Bulbs/AquaMedic-T5-Lamps.aspx


108$ shipped for what I think is the best 4-bulb veg combo, Ocean Blue is best blue spectrum T5 on the market. It's like a combination of UVL Super Actinic and ATI Blue Plus but better. All you'd have to do is change out two ocean blues for plantas to flower. funny thing is I bet the 150w off 3 plantas give MORE usable red light then a 1000w HPS does.


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## falcon223 (Dec 29, 2011)

I got these. Are these the red suns, that everyone is having trouble with ???
WavePoint T5 HO Red Wave Plant Growth Replacement Lamp, 46", 54W 
In Stock 
*Our Price:* $16.99 
*Sale Price: $10.95 *
_*You save $6.04!*_




*In Stock *


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 29, 2011)

falcon223 said:


> I got these. Are these the red suns, that everyone is having trouble with ???


no those are by WavePoint, they're basically a tri-band red heavy full spectrum bulb, blue/green/red. UV Lighting Red Sun's are almost all Red, but they're booty, avoid em, I'd say go w the phillips or sylvania reds if you need a red bulb. IMHO, fuck UVL. I have the Red Waves, rather pinkish bulb, good for the price but nothing unique.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 29, 2011)

Arabic said:


> also look up the aqua medic ocean blues.. they have high peaks at 400-450nm. usually you'd need two bulbs to hit both of those (one at 430nm and one at 450nm). Damn.. so many possibilities. These aqua medics seem golden though, right?
> 
> http://www.aqua-medic.com/t5_bulbs.shtml
> 
> ...


My thoughts are that blue colors are a dime a dozen, its hard to find a t5 bulb that isnt rich in blues. There are very few bulbs that dont have blue or green in em. Sure they have nice specific peaks, but through your assortment of 4-6-8 bulbs, almost every one will have blue so your blues will be covered pretty well by default. I think a good spread of red for both veg and even more for flowering. I do like the plantas, and think I prob will get 2 to add to flower to replace 2 460actinic's, then I should get 2 Fijis for veg.

Ill then have 8bulbs for veg, 2 fiji purps, 2 6500k's, 2 WavePoint ReefWave420, 2 WavePoint BlueWave460.
flowering Ill have two 4bulbs for side lighting, 2 UVL Shit Red Suns, 2 AquaMedic Plantas, 2 WavePoint RedWaves, 2 WavePoint CoralWaves. +400w HortHPS/cool tube.


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## PetFlora (Dec 29, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Red Suns FUCKING BLOW!!! Who the fuck built these things! Did they manufacture them with their ass! I ordered 8 of them because of all the bad reports so I knew I'd need extras. Out of the 4 I had in 2 separate fixtures, the one in my Badboy has already failed completely, and ALL THREE in my New Wave have bad shadow spots on them. I twisted them around 180 degrees to try to use the other sides, and now the shadows have appeared there too. I'll probably lose all 3 within the week. So after 1 week with these bulbs, NOT A SINGLE ONE is working properly. WTF! I feel like we are all completely trapped with the Red Suns, as there doesn't seem to be any other bulb to replace it for flower. I know it is not my fixture that's causing the problem because I have two completely different ones.
> 
> Has anyone tried the Quantum 2900K flower bulbs? I know we don't have a spectrum for those either, and I'm sure Quantum won't release it, but I'm ready to try anything else at this point. It's going to get VERY expensive to keep having to pay shipping costs to return these piece of shit Red Suns. I haven't even contacted Marine Depot yet to see if they'll even take em back.
> 
> I know we don't have much choice, but I'd stay away from Red Suns. They're just a giant headache


I have 8 each Quantum Grow/Flower bulbs. One of the guys here early on had a friend there who sent the graphs to him, and he to me), but they are not in a format that I can send. If someone who is able to convert and upload here, wants to PM me with their email I will forward.

FYI: I am barley computer literate. The 2900s graph SUCKS. Coral Wave has much better bulbs for flower, though they ain't no Red Sun. Here's hoping those guys get that figured out before they go belly up.


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## PetFlora (Dec 29, 2011)

Just emailed Kelly. They do not carry Aquamedic bulbs. Neither do they have a bulb that comes close to the UVL Red Life/Sun. 

AM had a Fd up dealer directory. I called 2 supposed dealers on this list neither sells bulbs or is in that biz!. They are in the process of updating their site. Scott from AS says they have an account, but no inventory.

http://www.aqua-medic.com/dealersloc.php?mailing_state=fl


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## PetFlora (Dec 29, 2011)

AquaticLife makes a Roseate 650 http://www.aquaticlife.com/products2/3411 Weak deep reds

 
Here is AquaMedic: *Aqualine T5 Plant Grow* lots of red http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216. Once you are on the page on the right is a pic of the bulbs below is a tiny graph> click on it to enlarge. They are available in lots of places. Best contender so far? 


 
*Ouch $38 pe*r http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13827 

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=13827Ah here it is @ $25.85 (48") + $4 ship fee per bulb http://www.aquacave.com/plant-grow-t5-lamps-brby-aquamedic-982.html

The more I compare the graphs, the less I think the Plant Grow is an alternative. I spoke with Scott @ AS. He thinks the problem is bad adhesive on the end caps. Says he will talk to UVL


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## organicbynature (Dec 29, 2011)

Thanks for the bulb tip and the link, Arabic. I'll look into picking some of those Plantas up. 

I agree with Undercover regarding the blue one. The graph isn't the easiest to read, but it pretty much looks like a super actinic to me.

Red is the hard-to-find color right now, particularly at 660 nm. The Planta looks pretty good for that, and looks to fit the curve well over all. I'll probably end up going base-bulb heavy with a mix of these and Flora Suns. Add in some Coral Waves (Super Actinic for veg) and it's an output I'm pretty comfortable with.

It would still be nice to get some all-red bulbs. I tried getting in touch with the only place I've found that carries the Philips bulb, but haven't heard back from them.


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## Arabic (Dec 29, 2011)

I think I've found an easier to read graph of the "Ocean" blue one, taking a closer look at it we see it doesn't emit high enough on the 450 side to justify it's effectiveness at that peak..

http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=213

so.... comparing EVERY other bulb listed on this thread (up to page 110  i'm not finished reading)

It would seem that these are the best bulbs:

 Aquafloro - gives a full spectrum and enough red for veg
 Super ATI Blue Plus gives you the best 450 peak of all 
 UVL Super Actinic gives best 420 spectrum


with these three bulbs, you could do two Aquafloros and one super actinic and blue plus. Aquafloros are great for veg too because they emit the perfect nm of blue. I'lll probably only use one and look for another good blue bulb.

For flower I'd suggest 1 ati super blue, 1 aquafloro, and two "Plant Grow"/Plantas bulbs. Or ditch an aquafloro for another Plant Grow

I recently inquired about better spectral graphs on the Planta bulbs, they said they've discontinued and now make a model called Plant Grow.



> Thank you for contacting us.
> Please note that Aqua Medic no longer makes Planta lamps. They replace them with current model called Plant Grow.


So Plant Grow is the newest bulb, not Planta. Here's a link showing its graph http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216

It has a thicker red band then most, I notice the very high blue spike but the thick red band is indeeed making it the number 1 contender right now.


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## Psytranceorgy (Dec 29, 2011)

I posted links to the AquaMedic Plant Grows, Giesemann Aqua Floras, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed Flora Suns, etc... etc... a long time ago back on page 63 of this thread:



Psytranceorgy said:


> On the other hand, we as consumers are free to study the spectrum of similar, competing, and less expensive T5 HO bulbs produced by other companies, and make educated purchasing decisions:
> 
> AquaticLife Roseate http://aquaticlife.com/
> Aqua Medic Plant Grow http://www.aqua-medic.com/
> ...


It is too bad that the UVL Red Suns have been having quality issues... 

But yeah guys, I like where you are headed here... I suppose there is no getting around the fact that it is going to take some experimentation with these bulbs to come up with the best solution =D Keep up the good work!


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## Arabic (Dec 29, 2011)

Can you tell me why you guys think the UVL Red Suns are good for bloom?

View attachment 1962925 Red spectrum we need must peak at 640nm and 660nm, and anything inbetween. 
Here the "plant grow" bulb shows plenty distribution in that area, especially since the band is wide. That big 450nm spike might be more beneficial to flowering than we think. I don't like the green spike though, still better than the red sun.
 Very little at 640nm and basically none at 660nm, the HIGH output at 610nm to 620nm is actually BARELY usable. Look at how much Cholorophyll is made at those spectrums.


Using my nooby paint skills I was able to show the high red spectrum the Red sun emits ontop of the plant absorption chart:



Showing that the red suns are indeed trash and you'd be better off with Aquafloros or Plant Grow bulbs 

Aquafloro:


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## organicbynature (Dec 29, 2011)

Still like the Plant Grow. Not a fan of the Aquaflora. There are definitely other base bulb options with better PUR than this one. Also, no 660 spike is a bummer. Stick with the Plant Grow between these two!

I also still like the Flora Sun as a base bulb (which is also a much cheaper bulb - can be found for $10 ea. with free shipping).

I'm not too worried about which is the best actinic and 450, they're mostly pretty comparable between brands, from what I can see. When comparing bulbs that are so close to each other I suspect the differences in graph quality make up most of the difference that you might see.


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## organicbynature (Dec 29, 2011)

Arabic said:


> Can you tell me why you guys think the UVL Red Suns are good for bloom?
> 
> View attachment 1962925
> View attachment 1962926
> View attachment 1962927


Because UVL says the spike is at 633nm.

Though, as you are perhaps noticing, that is not what the graph shows.

But also because people seem to be having success with it when it doesn't outright fail.


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## Arabic (Dec 29, 2011)

Well Chlorophyll A is barely made at 633nm. If you look closely you'd see that very very little of chlorophyll A is made with that redsun. BUT Chlorophyll B synthesis starts to pick up at 630nm. I think the red suns are DECENT at fulfilling only the red spectrum of Chlorophyll B but do absolutely nothing at all for Chlorophyll A


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## Calrt (Dec 29, 2011)

Arabic, you can't just say Red Suns are junk because it is not at the peak nm. Look at some HID graphs and tell the people growing great medicine with them that they are junk! All 6 of my Red Suns are going strong. 3 are 4 weeks old and three are 2 weeks. None bought from Marine Depot the first 3 from AS


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## Redoctober (Dec 29, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> no those are by WavePoint, they're basically a tri-band red heavy full spectrum bulb, blue/green/red. UV Lighting Red Sun's are almost all Red, but they're booty, avoid em, I'd say go w the phillips or sylvania reds if you need a red bulb. IMHO, fuck UVL. I have the Red Waves, rather pinkish bulb, good for the price but nothing unique.


 Which are the philips and sylvania red bulbs you are refering to? I'd be happy to switch to anything right now. I've seen several 2700-3000K Flower T5 bulbs by various companies, but none of them seem to show the spectra graphs for them. 

IMO I think the Planta bulbs look quite good, but I think it is a "balanced" bulb, and not really a replacement for a red flowering bulb. I believe it was suggested somewhere early in the thread that you could veg, flower or both under all balanced bulbs, and forgo the red/blue alternation. I'm not sure what effect this would have on the plants. People have reported bud swelling under the Fiji's but I tend to think of it as more of a blue bulb than a dual spectrum, but we'll never know for sure. 

I did find a red "heavy" bulb made by Hagen with a wonderful 660nm peak, but it seems to be available only as a T8 in a 48" 54W. If anyone can find a T5 version, they look fairly decent. I could potentially see it replacing Red Suns. 

It's called the Aqua-Glo. And it seem to be the ONLY bulb they DON'T make in a 4 foot T5....figures right? http://hagen.com/usa/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=112&PROD_ID=01015870020101


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 29, 2011)

View attachment 1962972 just remember that not all light waves that arent those perfect red/blue spikes are wasted by the plants. There is even research to show that Red and Blue are absorbed more efficiently in the presence of green, they lab tested panels that were different ratios of red to blue vs the same array's with a smaller percentage of green peppered in, like 12blue 4red to 1green, which outperformed the blue/red only panels... same nm LED's used for blue/red throughout... most all of these T5's are gonna work, just a matter of finding the most efficient blend for the BEST possible results

scrambling trying to find the SPD's for the sylvania and philips bulb... found the sylvania's for sale here, but no spd yet http://www.superiorlighting.com/20997_sylvania_Fp54_Red_Ho_p/20997-syl.htm


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## jewgrow (Dec 29, 2011)

I don't understand these claims. Plants have evolved under the spectrum of the sun for millions of years. The best spectrum to grow earth plants is the sun. Mimicking that spectrum would be ideal no?


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## hyroot (Dec 29, 2011)

jewgrow said:


> I don't understand these claims. Plants have evolved under the spectrum of the sun for millions of years. The best spectrum to grow earth plants is the sun. Mimicking that spectrum would be ideal no?


That's exactly what we are doing here. Our t5's with mix of coral bulbs are about 80% closer to what plants pull from the sun than any hid. google PAR (photosynthetically active radiation)

this is the spectrum of what plants use.
View attachment 1963001

these are the best hps bulb i could find. notice how much wasted light there is that plants do not absorb.


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## Redoctober (Dec 29, 2011)

> scrambling trying to find the SPD's for the sylvania and philips bulb... found the sylvania's for sale here, but no spd yet


 Maybe they don't publish the spectrum. They like to be annoying, like most of the bulb manufacturers. Thanks for looking though  

Arabic's point may be valid if indeed the Red Sun's peak is at 610 and not 633. Again we have conflicting info between the company and the graph that is on their web page. Man, why the hell can't these companies get their acts together! 



> most all of these T5's are gonna work, just a matter of finding the most efficient blend for the BEST possible results


 Totally! Just like, you CAN flower with a MH instead of an HPS if you want to. It's just that the spectrum of an HPS is more conducive to flower development, and the plants will produce better under them. Same with T5. Although maybe if you had actinics exclusively, flowering may not trigger, or be really sparse. But as long as you are providing any PAR to the plants, they will photosynthesize and survive. Ideally with flower you want more red PAR than blue PAR but just how much is still TBD. Should it be 60/40 or 65/35 or 70/30? We don't really know yet. The Pr0f has recommended 60/40 red/blue so that's what I'm aiming for.


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## Redoctober (Dec 29, 2011)

hyroot said:


> That's exactly what we are doing here. Our t5's with mix of coral bulbs are about 80% closer to what plants pull from the sun than any hid. google PAR (photosynthetically active radiation) this is the spectrum of what plants use. View attachment 1963001View attachment 1963002 these are the best hps bulb i could find. notice how much wasted light there is that plants do not absorb. View attachment 1963006View attachment 1963007


 You know what's crazy when you think about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only one to have this thought after this whole thread): How are HPS lights as efficient as they are, considering what we know about their PAR output? I mean, even with wasted light output pushing 85% +, we are still chasing their results with T5's that are probably 5x as efficient. That's insane! The only explanation I can come up with is that HPS lamps are a point source whereas T5 output is spread out over a 4 foot area. Thus the same amount of light that a 4 foot by 3 foot T5 fixture is throwing, in a smeared out fashion, gets squeezed into essentially a 1 inch area (filament). That's why their penetration is so good, and why they're too bright to even look at. I'm going to do some physics on this....


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## hyroot (Dec 29, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> You know what's crazy when you think about it (and I'm sure I'm not the only one to have this thought after this whole thread): How are HPS lights as efficient as they are, considering what we know about their PAR output? I mean, even with wasted light output pushing 85% +, we are still chasing their results with T5's that are probably 5x as efficient. That's insane! The only explanation I can come up with is that HPS lamps are a point source whereas T5 output is spread out over a 4 foot area. Thus the same amount of light that a 4 foot by 3 foot T5 fixture is throwing, in a smeared out fashion, gets squeezed into essentially a 1 inch area (filament). That's why their penetration is so good, and why they're too bright to even look at. I'm going to do some physics on this....


we are also doing that with half the wattage. if we matched watt for watt, I'm sure we would blow away any hps/mh

my last yield under t5. i recently did the math and per sq ft and per watt. i got the same yield to my 1000w, its to hard to judge per plant. we all know each plant grows differently even if its the same strain. by that i mean how it branches out and rate of growth and how many bud sites.. not so much different buds on same strain.

right now under both lights the buds are the same size and the t5 is less than half the wattage and the quality of the buds far surpasses the 1000w buds


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## Redoctober (Dec 29, 2011)

hyroot said:


> we are also doing that with half the wattage. if we matched watt for watt, I'm sure we would blow away any hps/mh my last yield under t5. i recently did the math and per sq ft and per watt. i got the same yield to my 1000w, its to hard to judge per plant. we all know each plant grows differently even if its the same strain. by that i mean how it branches out and rate of growth and how many bud sites.. not so much different buds on same strain. right now under both lights the buds are the same size and the t5 is less than half the wattage and the quality of the buds far surpasses the 1000w buds


 Now that's what I like to hear!  So how come you originally thought that your yield was disappointing? Doesn't sound disappointing at all, in fact it sounds pretty appointing lol! 

Do you think you'll do a side by side with equivalent wattage of HPS and T5? 

I've noticed that the buds under my T5 are slightly smaller than my HPS of equivalent wattage. I am doing a very non scientific, trial of GLH LED 180W, 400W HPS, and 432W T5. It's not a trial really, I just wanted to give the plants as much light as I could so I threw up 3 different fixtures literally side by side. Funnily enough I think it's the LED that's got the largest buds which I didn't expect, but the T5 has the best quality. Now also bear in mind that we are not using the same bulbs either and my bulb mix may be less than ideal for flower. 

I am testing the ZooMed Flora Suns as a base bulb just because their spectrum is pretty good and they are really easy to get (PetCo). I have 3 UVL Red Suns and 2 UVL Super Actinics in there as well. I was going to put the Fiji's in but I ordered the 80W VHO version because BulkReef was out of the 54W bulbs thinking it was no big deal to put a VHO bulb in a HO fixture. You may in fact be able to do this, but it turns out that the VHO was 60" long, so I couldn't even use it. Sunuva!


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## hyroot (Dec 29, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Now that's what I like to hear!  So how come you originally thought that your yield was disappointing? Doesn't sound disappointing at all, in fact it sounds pretty appointing lol!
> 
> Do you think you'll do a side by side with equivalent wattage of HPS and T5?
> 
> ...


I was disappointed becaus I got way kore per plant amd had less plants under the 1000w. But the 1k ones were huge. The t5 ones were half the size. I mean the plant not the buds. All tye problems I stated. At first I didnt take that into consideration.


I want to do 2 t5 8 bulbs and 1 or 2 pro grow 180's between the t5's. It will be a long time til im able to do that.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 29, 2011)

jewgrow said:


> I don't understand these claims. Plants have evolved under the spectrum of the sun for millions of years. The best spectrum to grow earth plants is the sun. Mimicking that spectrum would be ideal no?


Actually no...
BILLIONS OF YEARS!
Plants are damaged by MOST of the suns light. white "yellow" light is essentially useless to plants.. good for us.. See the sun ACTUALLY emits
UV
XRAY
far infra red radio waves etc 
also known as solar radiation...
 Most of the suns radiation is harmful to ALL LIFE..
thats why we have a magnetosphere\atmosphere to filter that all out.. and even then plants have evolved to use light during certain times of day and different wavelengths to MAXIMIZE the radiation the CAN use.
Tricomes and most AUXINS have been shown to serve as a "shield" against UV radiation. Plants also produce many solar defenses like a waxy coating that diffuses the light and green pigments provide protection to other "yellow" "orange" and "red" pigments which are more easily damaged by sunlight.


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## hyroot (Dec 29, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Actually no...
> BILLIONS OF YEARS!
> Plants are damaged by MOST of the suns light. white "yellow" light is essentially useless to plants.. good for us.. See the sun ACTUALLY emits
> UV
> ...


You do know that in the us and europe that there isnt really any infra red light and uv-b. infra red light and uv-b is mostly along the equator


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 29, 2011)

Arabic said:


> Can you tell me why you guys think the UVL Red Suns are good for bloom?
> 
> View attachment 1962925 Red spectrum we need must peak at 640nm and 660nm, and anything inbetween.
> View attachment 1962926Here the "plant grow" bulb shows plenty distribution in that area, especially since the band is wide. That big 450nm spike might be more beneficial to flowering than we think. I don't like the green spike though, still better than the red sun.
> ...


Not to shut you down but chlorophyl isnt MADE at those specrums... its "sensitive" and produces more energy at that spectra.
the trich is to find a bulb that has a very narrow output with a specific spectra... these specific spectra are easier to control like the super actinics are 420nm perfect.. no other light is produced so they are as efficient as possible.
ALL the other bulbs prouce light ACROSS THE ENTIRE SPECTRA... except the red suns...
the red suns also if you look VERY closely have the VERY FAR RED! which plants seem to LOVE, and if you put in the red suns EARLY it will FORCE them to flower!
now i USED to use the ATI pro color.. but they have since been discontinued in 48" lengths.
yes the red suns have issues, and i think its a damn shame... BUT you can return them and the suppliers are VERY helpful and good at doing so with no hassles!!!


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## Calrt (Dec 29, 2011)

On a side note, my T5 plants are much darker green then the HPS.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 29, 2011)

hyroot said:


> You do know that in the us and europe that there isnt really any infra red light and uv-b. infra red light and uv-b is mostly along the equator


care to wager on that?


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## Redoctober (Dec 29, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> the red suns also if you look VERY closely have the VERY FAR RED! which plants seem to LOVE, and if you put in the red suns EARLY it will FORCE them to flower! now i USED to use the ATI pro color.. but they have since been discontinued in 48" lengths. yes the red suns have issues, and i think its a damn shame... BUT you can return them and the suppliers are VERY helpful and good at doing so with no hassles!!!


 So if the Red Suns force flowering, should I not be using it in veg? 

My Veg mix was: Flora Sun --- Red Sun --- Super Actinic --- Flora Sun


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## hyroot (Dec 29, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> [/U]6803]care to wager on that?
> View attachment 1963255


According to that chart all the uv-b and infrared is only in the southern hemisphere. If that chart is correct, I am half right. We still dont get infrared and uv-b in the northern hemisphere.


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## hyroot (Dec 29, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> Not to shut you down but chlorophyl isnt MADE at those specrums... its "sensitive" and produces more energy at that spectra.
> the trich is to find a bulb that has a very narrow output with a specific spectra... these specific spectra are easier to control like the super actinics are 420nm perfect.. no other light is produced so they are as efficient as possible.
> ALL the other bulbs prouce light ACROSS THE ENTIRE SPECTRA... except the red suns...
> the red suns also if you look VERY closely have the VERY FAR RED! which plants seem to LOVE, and if you put in the red suns EARLY it will FORCE them to flower!
> ...


Doesn't far red mean infrared? Passed 700nm. The redsuns do not have that. From what I have done. Its the coral waves with the infrared that induces flowering early. Not th redsuns. YOu can use the redsuns in veg but not the coral waves. I already jad issues with the coral waves inducing flowering in less than a day im my veg on a 18/6 cycle.

I think you are confusing yourself.


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## jewgrow (Dec 29, 2011)

See, I think there's something going on "behind the scenes". I don't believe we know enough to perfect the plant growing environment. There will always be wasted energy, no matter which system you use. HPS and MH definitely waste much more electricity and light. Just by how hot they get it is obvious energy is wasted. The perfect spectrum LEDs and T5s don't have nearly enough penetration. The sun is perfection for plants. Growing is a life system and when we remove or add one constant, we change the entire process.


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## cannabineer (Dec 29, 2011)

jewgrow said:


> See, I think there's something going on "behind the scenes". *I don't believe we know enough to perfect the plant growing environment*. There will always be wasted energy, no matter which system you use. HPS and MH definitely waste much more electricity and light. Just by how hot they get it is obvious energy is wasted. The perfect spectrum LEDs and T5s don't have nearly enough penetration. The sun is perfection for plants. Growing is a life system and when we remove or add one constant, we change the entire process.


Imo that is reason to try, both necessary and sufficient. Unless you believe there is a spirit-component that only el Sol can satisfy ... an alternative belief is that plants are von Neumann chemical reactors and can be optimized as such. Jmo. cn


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## organicbynature (Dec 30, 2011)

Think of your light like soil.

The two blue hot spots and the two red hot spots are your N-P-K. You will use these in most abundance to the greatest effect. All the other wavelengths are the micronutrients, the bacteria, fungi, enzymes, etc. Other wavelengths help to varying degrees and are generally important in some quantity, and there are additional synergistic benefits as well (at least some of which we are surely unaware).

This is how I see it anyways.


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## Redoctober (Dec 30, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Doesn't far red mean infrared? Passed 700nm. The redsuns do not have that. From what I have done. Its the coral waves with the infrared that induces flowering early. Not th redsuns. YOu can use the redsuns in veg but not the coral waves. I already jad issues with the coral waves inducing flowering in less than a day im my veg on a 18/6 cycle. I think you are confusing yourself.


 Right! I remembered it being the Coral Waves that were to be avoided during veg, not the Red Suns.


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## hyroot (Dec 30, 2011)

I just read an article in maximum yield. About photosynthesis. it stated that chlorophyl A makes up 75% of the chlorophyl that absorbs light in green plants. Chlorophyll absorbs most light between 680nm and 700 nm. Magazines like tht have fact checkers im sure. 

So we need to find a red bulb in that range.


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## PetFlora (Dec 30, 2011)

Calrt said:


> Arabic, you can't just say Red Suns are junk because it is not at the peak nm. Look at some HID graphs and tell the people growing great medicine with them that they are junk! All 6 of my Red Suns are going strong. 3 are 4 weeks old and three are 2 weeks. None bought from Marine Depot the first 3 from AS



The last 3 RSs I purchased were all working fine after several weeks (the 2 in place still are). I took one out for a couple of weeks. When I put it back in - nada/DOA, or DOI (insertion). 

In discussing this yesterday with Scott at AS, he thinks UV Lighting has a batch of bad adhesive, which is used to marry the end caps. Further: the exciter is in the end caps. _You MIGHT minimize the problem when you insert/remove by grabbing the bulb as close to the ends as possible._

The Flora Grow looks sweet as a full cycle bulb. During veg/flower just pop a few and insert appropriate Actinic & Deep Red. My concern with the Plant Grow for flower is the intensity of the reds (~ 0.2- 0.3), but blending 1-2 RSs with the PGs should be even sweeter. So maybe, this was a blessing in disguise, as difficulties often are.


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## PetFlora (Dec 30, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Right! I remembered it being the Coral Waves that were to be avoided during veg, not the Red Suns.


I don't think the RSs help as much during Grow, as other bulbs would. So it may not be a problem, but you could do better. My 2 cents


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## Arabic (Dec 30, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> The last 3 RSs I purchased were all working fine after several weeks (the 2 in place still are). I took one out for a couple of weeks. When I put it back in - nada/DOA, or DOI (insertion).
> 
> In discussing this yesterday with Scott at AS, he thinks UV Lighting has a batch of bad adhesive, which is used to marry the end caps. Further: the exciter is in the end caps. _You MIGHT minimize the problem when you insert/remove by grabbing the bulb as close to the ends as possible._
> 
> The Flora Grow looks sweet as a full cycle bulb. During veg/flower just pop a few and insert appropriate Actinic & Deep Red. My concern with the Plant Grow for flower is the intensity of the reds (~ 0.2- 0.3), but blending 1-2 RSs with the PGs should be even sweeter. So maybe, this was a blessing in disguise, as difficulties often are.



When I meant junk I was not only referring to the technical problems, they aren't emitting the correct wavelength, they produce no usable light for chlorophyll A's red spectrum. chlorophyll B is barely made at 633nm, but the Red suns spectrum drops SO fast after 633nm and plants start using more red at 642nm-662nm. I guess if you are in favor of a broader spectrum I'd say go for them. But to me they seem ineffective, I'll add 1 to my 8 bulb flower setup whenever I make it though.

And for the intensity of the AquaMedic Plant Grow, it's got one green spike of bad light. the broadest band is red and it offers the most red at the 640-660 range, plus the blue spike is at ~435nm so i'd say that's PAR. that's good.


this thread should now be about the best 8-bulb flower setup until we find better bulbs


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## Arabic (Dec 30, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> Right! I remembered it being the Coral Waves that were to be avoided during veg, not the Red Suns.



I'd say the red suns are 100% useless for vegging.


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## PetFlora (Dec 30, 2011)

I think it was that scumbag Donald Rumsfeld who said _"We know what we know, and we don't know what we don't know"_

That said, I am inclined to agree with Arabic- no benefit to RSs in veg.


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## Arabic (Dec 30, 2011)

My future 8-bulb setup would be

No longer using the red sun, I don't care how RED the unusable light is. It has no other blue Par, not wasting a T5
Aquafloro x1 - good spectrum and best 640nm bulb imo, a lot of color from this bulb is PAR and very little is wasted in green
Plant Grow x4 - best all around flower bulb, thick red spectrum, lots around the 660nm area and the biggest spike is blue and happens to be PAR as well
Flora Sun x1 - I think this is identical to plant grow.. every picture of this shows it being identical, only the picture posted on here showed a spike at 700nm+ so I'd have to pick this for being unique.
ATI Super Blue x1 - amazing bulb imo... vegging wonder, beg to differ? )
Coral Wave x1 - only one with 420nm-435nm peak, plus people say it made their plants flower in 2 days because of the high IR output. Crazy.

hmm maybe I'd change out a plant grow for another aquafloro to better accomodate 640nm

I think this is the best combo until I can prove Flora Sun and Plant Grow are the same bulb.. 
Spectral graph of Plant Grow: http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216
Posted graph of Flora Sun: View attachment 1963755 See all that 750nm activity? Can't find it anywhere else on the net. 




On another note, why hasn't anyone mentioned Aquafloras yet? 
The 640nm spectrum is targeted decently. I don't know if the axis on the left is ever relevant. If it is then I've overlooked a LOT of information but it seems diff companies use diff numbers.


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## hyroot (Dec 30, 2011)

Have you looked at these

http://www.aqua-medic.com/t5_bulbs.shtml

http://coralifeproducts.com/product/lamps/


Aside from all those. The fijis im using are working great. If you read my other posts. Buds are the same size as my 1k but much more frosty and sticky. Im at 6 weeks and this ia my 2nd flower with the t5. In the first batch, per watt and sq ft I matched my 1k with a eye hortilux. 3 fiji, 3 reduns, 2 coral waves. Soon I plan on swapping 1 redsun for a fiji so to have 4 fiji.


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## PetFlora (Dec 30, 2011)

*Arabic *I think you have put together an excellent compliment.

I already own 3 almost new RSuns (one bad), so I'll use them in combination, but sparingly. Currently RSs are 2/8, but once I get either the AquaFloro & Plant Grow I plan on removing one.

Still not convinced what the non Red Suns lack in spike, they make up for band width, as those bands are not very intense.


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## Calrt (Dec 30, 2011)

Arabic said:


> When I meant junk I was not only referring to the technical problems, they aren't emitting the correct wavelength, they produce no usable light for chlorophyll A's red spectrum. chlorophyll B is barely made at 633nm, but the Red suns spectrum drops SO fast after 633nm and plants start using more red at 642nm-662nm. I guess if you are in favor of a broader spectrum I'd say go for them. But to me they seem ineffective, I'll add 1 to my 8 bulb flower setup whenever I make it though.
> 
> And for the intensity of the AquaMedic Plant Grow, it's got one green spike of bad light. the broadest band is red and it offers the most red at the 640-660 range, plus the blue spike is at ~435nm so i'd say that's PAR. that's good.
> 
> ...


When I responded to you saying that, my argument was that HPS have very little usable spectrum but still grow great. So to say that Red Suns are 100% useless I think is wrong. Now I will agree that they are not 100% perfect. A broad range from 640nm to 680 would be sweet, but its not....


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 30, 2011)

Gastanker said:


> That is super confusing. So a single bulb t5 is one ballast, a 2 bulb is two ballasts linked together - each ballast still fires separately and each goes through a softstart if its ballast is a softstart ballast, if one ballast fails it has no impact at all on the other ballast - why is this 2 bulb fixture worse than the 1 bulb fixture? Are you saying that 8 bulb badboys are bad? They have a bunch of ballasts in parallel. How would linking in parallel create dirty energy?
> 
> 8 single bulb t5 fixtures plugged into the same power strip is equivalent to 8 single bulb t5 fixtures linked to each other in parallel...


Computing Dictionary
[h=3]*dirty power definition*[/h]
Electrical mains voltage that is unfriendly to the delicate innards of computers. Spikes, drop-outs, average voltage significantly higher or lower than nominal, or just plain noise can all causeproblems of varying subtlety and severity (these are collectivelyknown as power hits). 

Not "create" dirty energy, your power company "produces" dirty power... so attaching a "fixture" to another "fixture" is not a good idea....
Anyone who works with HID lighting knows what a hotstart will do to both the bulbs and ballasts. im not talking about working with parallel ballasts.. but the incoming power TO the ballast..Every time your fridge comes on your lights in the home mMAY dim thats a SURGE... jsut protect your equipment is all im sayin.. just a cautionary tale... ounce of prevention...


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## AltarNation (Dec 30, 2011)

fyi guys, my grow is nothing to gauge these lights by as I obviously ran into some problems with nutrient levels, possibly cal/mag issues, etc... probably didn't help that I kept watering late, and I'm fairly sure I could have gone longer with maturity on some of them. This was my first time so I'm not too disappointed with the 182g I pulled off these crowded 7 plants under one 430watt fixture... but it's certainly not a much as I was hoping for. I blame my method and not the lights.

However, I will say that I did have similar results to some previously posted in the sense that I got some REALLY nice quality buds but just not the volume I'd hoped for. Mine are also a bit airier and leafier than I'd have preferred. It was kind of a bitch to trim because of the leaf content within the bud. I think this was due to my poor growing technique and the loss of a lot of fan leaves earlier on stimulating a lot of late leaf growth... but maybe it is a genetics thing and I just need to buy quality seed to avoid inter-bud leaf development..??

The buds are really potent and they smell/taste great after a slow dry over about two weeks. They've been curing only a few days and they're already really lovely scents, so I can't wait to see how they pan out later on.

I left the small undeveloped branches of each plant in tact and they are back under the lights... not expecting more than another zip total off all of them, but maybe I'll be surprised by some late development that I didn't get to see in the others due to my rush to harvest before the holiday. (I had about 40-50% amber trichomes on most of them, but they were still sort of slim and didn't seem like they were 'swelling' as much as I hoped to see)

I'm very happy with the quality, not so happy about leaf quantity or bud size. Intend to do better next time with the same lights, so keep an ear out on that... and I'll put some dried nug shots up when I get to takin' more pictures...


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## Redoctober (Dec 30, 2011)

Arabic said:


> My future 8-bulb setup would be No longer using the red sun, I don't care how RED the unusable light is. It has no other blue Par, not wasting a T5 Aquafloro x1 - good spectrum and best 640nm bulb imo, a lot of color from this bulb is PAR and very little is wasted in green Plant Grow x4 - best all around flower bulb, thick red spectrum, lots around the 660nm area and the biggest spike is blue and happens to be PAR as well Flora Sun x1 - I think this is identical to plant grow.. every picture of this shows it being identical, only the picture posted on here showed a spike at 700nm+ so I'd have to pick this for being unique. ATI Super Blue x1 - amazing bulb imo... vegging wonder, beg to differ? ) Coral Wave x1 - only one with 420nm-435nm peak, plus people say it made their plants flower in 2 days because of the high IR output. Crazy. hmm maybe I'd change out a plant grow for another aquafloro to better accomodate 640nm I think this is the best combo until I can prove Flora Sun and Plant Grow are the same bulb.. Spectral graph of Plant Grow: http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216 Posted graph of Flora Sun: View attachment 1963755 See all that 750nm activity? Can't find it anywhere else on the net. On another note, why hasn't anyone mentioned Aquafloras yet? View attachment 1963760 The 640nm spectrum is targeted decently. I don't know if the axis on the left is ever relevant. If it is then I've overlooked a LOT of information but it seems diff companies use diff numbers.


 If Chlorophyll A is Performing 75% of the photosynthetic action, I'd want to focus more on it's absorption peaks and be less concerned with chlorophyll B. So we're talking about the 662nm spike, the 410nm and 430nm blue peaks. Chlorophyll B's peaks are 642nm and 453nm. That is not to marginalize chlorophyll B, or say it is unimportant, but if I had to chose a bulb concentrated on either 642 like the AquaFlora vs a bulb focused on the 662nm peak like the Plant Grow or Flora Sun, I'd go with the 662nm bulbs. Ideally you'd want a mix of both so maybe throw in 1 642nm AquaFlora just to nail that absorption peak and have a balanced spectrum. 

The real question is, for flower, if we eliminate the Red Sun (which I'm all in favor of), how are we going to balance our spectrum to be 60/40 red/blue? All of the bulbs you mentioned Arabic are great bulbs, and probably all we have to choose from, but the dilema is that the Coral Wave and Super Blue are blue bulbs (except for that far red bump in the coral wave), and the others are dual spectrum, but probably slightly "blue heavy" it would seem from the spectral graphs. So with all this blue weighting, how do we tilt the scales towards the red end without a red heavy bulb like a Red Sun?


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## Calrt (Dec 30, 2011)

For those of us that bought the smoking deal through Amazon.....I did a customer service chat with them and this was the response, I might get my light after all! "There is no need to contact the seller again and again, we will file a claim against the seller on 1st, for re-deliver the correct item quantity."


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## Redoctober (Dec 30, 2011)

> I think this is the best combo until I can prove Flora Sun and Plant Grow are the same bulb..


 I agree, I think the Plant Grow and Flora Sun are very very similar but I'm not sure they're identical, although I initially thought so as well. If you overlay the graphs, the differences I've noticed are: 

on the Flora Sun, the 660nm spike on the PG has a slightly higher relative intensity (~.62) than the FS (~.45); 
the green spike on the PG (~.59) is less intense than on the FS (~.69), and you'll also notice that the red spike on the PG is higher than its green spike, whereas on the FS, the green spike is higher than the red; 
the 600nm peak is a bit higher on the FS than the on the PG; 
the blue spikes on both are pretty much the same; 
the FS has a (~.2) UVA spike at 360nm and a small UVB spike @ 390nm neither of which seem to be on the PG graph. 

I believe the Aqua Medic Plant Grow is also referred to as the "Planta" on many pages, but they are the same bulb. I found this confusing for a while. 

So these differences may be subtle, but there are differences. Overall, I'd have to give the edge to the Plant Grow over the Flora Sun. However the Flora Suns are really easy to obtain because they sell them in Petco, so there is no ordering or shipping, or return shipping to deal with should they go bad (I've had one Flora Sun fail on me and I just brought it right back and swapped it for a new one...so easy).


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## hyroot (Dec 30, 2011)

Redoctober said:


> I agree, I think the Plant Grow and Flora Sun are very very similar but I'm not sure they're identical, although I initially thought so as well. If you overlay the graphs, the differences I've noticed are:
> 
> on the Flora Sun, the 660nm spike on the PG has a slightly higher relative intensity (~.62) than the FS (~.45);
> the green spike on the PG (~.59) is less intense than on the FS (~.69), and you'll also notice that the red spike on the PG is higher than its green spike, whereas on the FS, the green spike is higher than the red;
> ...



Well the link arabic put up for the plant grow and the link I put up for the planta. The spectrum for each of those are different. Ill post them up when I get on my computer.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 30, 2011)

hyroot said:


> Well the link arabic put up for the plant grow and the link I put up for the planta. The spectrum for each of those are different. Ill post them up when I get on my computer.


Someone said earlier that the Planta was discontinued and was replaced w the Plant Grow... so they're prob a little different


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## hyroot (Dec 30, 2011)

this whole time when everyone was referring to the aqua flora. i kept thinking of the sylvania one and i just realized its the geisemann one. i like that one more than the plant grow. it has much higher peaks of red and blue with actinics and more uv -a uv-b and infrared spectrum


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## PetFlora (Dec 30, 2011)

Aquarium Life Roseate 650 graph . Just another vg grow bulb http://www.aquaticlife.com/products2/341#1


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## hyroot (Dec 30, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Aquarium Life Roseate 650 graph . Just another vg grow bulb http://www.aquaticlife.com/products2/341#1


WEAK SAUCE!!!!!!. the largest spike is green. There's more wasted light in that one than all the others.


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## pr0fesseur (Dec 31, 2011)

hyroot said:


> WEAK SAUCE!!!!!!. the largest spike is green. There's more wasted light in that one than all the others.


THOSE ARE THE "GROW" BULBS LOL....you know the ones that these hydroponics dealers sell you!!
no one listens to me...


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## organicbynature (Dec 31, 2011)

pr0fesseur said:


> THOSE ARE THE "GROW" BULBS LOL....you know the ones that these hydroponics dealers sell you!!
> no one listens to me...


I think both you and hyroot are looking at the 6000k graph, not the Roseate graph (labeled "650nm"!) Both can be found at that link and it opens up to the 6000k graph.

It is not surprising that a 6000k graph should look like a 'Grow' (6500k) graph, but the Roseate is clearly different.

We've been over this bulb a few times in this thread already. It is the clearest graph available to us as it shows specifically what percentage of its output is in each range of wavelengths. If you can live with a little over 25% of your base bulb in the green/yellow range, this bulb is fine for you. If not, what bulb are you using? To my eye, this is the 3rd best base bulb (behind the Plant Grow and Flora Sun - I'm not counting the false Fiji graph).


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## overTHEman (Dec 31, 2011)

PAR T5 Community, here's a bulb comparison.

At lights on yesterday, one of the two Fiji Purples burned out - one day after the immediate replacement seller's warranty. I sent an email to reefgeek and popped in a 6,500k from veg until a replacement could be found. 

A local pet shop carries CoraLife bulbs for $14 a piece (2ft). Taken as an opportunity to test a Fiji alternative, the CoraLife ColorMax was purchased. It was available in only the 14w so bear in mind that it is being overdriven in the following picture (pardon the burns).

From top to bottom, where 'X' is empty; ColorMax, X, X, Fiji









To add to the "graphs are not the gospel" comment made by falcon223, this bulb is producing a lot of green for the printed SPD chart. 







Note that this is NOT the graph on their website; it appears that the +600nm values (from the graph on the site) have been added to the single red spike.


...

To the rejection of my suspicions, this is not the Fiji Purple with a different label; good to know. Further, it's good to get the 6,500k out and something that resembles PAR in.


Happy experimenting.


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## organicbynature (Dec 31, 2011)

In fact, I LOVE that 6000k graph. It's a great baseline to compare against.

First off, I was wrong about 25+% green/yellow, because I was looking at the 6000k graph at the time. 

The Roseate has about 21% green/yellow vs ~27% in the 6000k (Grow bulb). It has 21.5% red instead of ~3%. The higher blue drops a bit but the UV and violet is higher than in the 6000k bulb.

I wish we had a similarly graphed "Bloom bulb" to compare with.

If you want to know how a graph translates visually to percentage of output by color, LOOK AT THESE TWO GRAPHS  - *http://www.aquaticlife.com/products2/341#1*

The reality is we're not going to find a base bulb that doesn't have a decent amount of green/yellow -at least not right now. What we can do to maximize our efficiency is use the best base bulb/s we can find and enhance appropriately with "booster" bulbs (actinics, red suns, etc.)

To me, partly what this means is not to bother with a 75/25 bulb - use a booster for that spectrum (450) as desired because efficiency is available to us there. Get your white light in the base bulb.


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## organicbynature (Dec 31, 2011)

overTHEman said:


> To add to the "graphs are not the gospel" comment made by falcon223, this bulb is producing a lot of green for the printed SPD chart.


Don't forget the green and yellow light will naturally appear much brighter to your eye than the other wavelengths. I've noticed my Flora Suns look much more pink when I take a picture of them than they do to my naked eye.


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## Arabic (Dec 31, 2011)

Yeah they no longer make the planta, only the Plant Grow. This is an e-mail I received from Albert @ aquasythe.com



> Thank you for contacting us.
> Please note that Aqua Medic no longer makes Planta lamps. They replace them with current model called Plant Grow.
> Thank you for choosing AquaSythe for your aquatic needs. You are a valued customer and we look forward to hearing from you in the future.
> 
> If we can be of any additional assistance, please feel free to contact our Customer Service Department at 1-224-656-5865 or via email at [email protected] and we will be happy to answer any question(s) you may have.


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## organicbynature (Dec 31, 2011)

I was under the initial impression that the Planta had just been renamed/marketed as the Plant Grow. Where was the updated graph for the Plant Grow available again?


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## Arabic (Dec 31, 2011)

Aqua Medic Plant Grow: http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216


that was a pain to find lol


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## PetFlora (Dec 31, 2011)

Does this look good for Flower?

1-2 Plant Grows
1-2 AquaFloros ( or one Plant Grow + one Aquafloro)
2 Red Suns (if you already have them. If not 2 @ AF & PG)
2 Coral Waves


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## hyroot (Dec 31, 2011)

I found this on zeovit salt water forum from years ago. Its from thomas of kz on that forum.



- - Korallen-Zucht's New T5 w/red on the way (http://www.zeovit.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7829 )

Thomas Pohl 


Dear Haaga, This is my last contribution to this thread. Our T5 is no copy of any other existing tube. The issue that was edited in reef central is nonsense.

Referring to our new T5 Coral Light Fiji Purple: This is a tube similar Hagen but nearly without green, orange and yellow spectrum. It is a mixture just of blue and red spectrum. This is brand new and not existing yet and just born out of our own tests with SPS.

We will not publish the spectrum of our tubes. I want to invite you to come and visit us in our shop, there I will show it to you, but the complete spectrum will not be published.

Best regards, Th.



So if anyone here is in germany or going there anytime soon. Make a stop by their shop and see the spd fiji chart and get back to us.


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## PetFlora (Dec 31, 2011)

Hagen doesn't provide graphs either


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## Arabic (Dec 31, 2011)

Someone rent a spectra-radiometer and test this damn fiji bulb, it's only 250$. I'm DYING to see its spectral graph..


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## Calrt (Dec 31, 2011)

Arabic said:


> Someone rent a spectra-radiometer and test this damn fiji bulb, it's only 250$. I'm DYING to see its spectral graph..


. I will throw $20 in for someone to do it! 

I wonder what it would really take to have Sylvania make me/us a run of the "perfect" bulb?


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## mipainpatient (Dec 31, 2011)

Pretty sure I didn't see this paper discussed in my initial read-through of the thread but check out Figure 4 (compare "F" and "G") 
http://envsupport.licor.com/docs/TechNote126.pdf

Again, if someone already presented this observation my bad but it seemed mildly poignant:
If HPS is emulating lower canopy light, heavy Chlorophyll-peak PAR and UV should emulate upper canopy (tip tops baby)
Also the pdf, which I found from the wiki article on PAR, was a nice read on PAR sensors and I recommend it.

Sorry if this is a redundant post,
MPP
p.s. sifting through papers on cryptochrome and gene expression, more to come


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 31, 2011)

Dear god hyroot, thank you for finding that post from kz, id bet that they won't release the spectrum because they just buy the right to label it a KZ, when its prob made by Hagen and KZ doesn't have the right to disclose Hagens proprietary data. 

I wish I could +rep you x1000 for that post. 

Im gonna try to find some posts on the coral threads from the Grim Reefer showing measured PAR values
For most T5 aquarium bulbs


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## overTHEman (Dec 31, 2011)

Undercover Cop said:


> Dear god hyroot, thank you for finding that post from kz, id bet that they won't release the spectrum because they just buy the right to label it a KZ, when its prob made by Hagen and KZ doesn't have the right to disclose Hagens proprietary data.
> 
> I wish I could +rep you x1000 for that post.
> 
> ...


This is likely to be the case with the bulb. +1 Great find, hyroot.

The lighting sections on the aquarium forums are very detailed. I'm gonna start looking through them, anyone want to divide an conquer?


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## overTHEman (Dec 31, 2011)

organicbynature,

The post was to offer a comparison between the Fiji Purple and ColorMax; as well as offer evidence about the reliability of the SPD charts. 



organicbynature said:


> Don't forget the green and yellow light will naturally appear much brighter to your eye than the other wavelengths. I've noticed my Flora Suns look much more pink when I take a picture of them than they do to my naked eye.


Graphs, eyes, pictures, and plant growth; until someone picks up a PAR meter, these are the only ways for us to determine what will best suit our needs. 

We know that the graphs are unreliable; this quote from wikipedia notes that wavelengths are changed for mere convenience: "Because the luminance of lighting fixtures and other light sources are handled separately, a spectral power distribution may be normalized in some manner, often to unity at 555 or 560 nanometers, coinciding with the peak of the eye's luminosity function." The ColorMax is an example of an altered SPD chart.

Eyes and pictures are great for bulb comparisons as one can SEE the differences in color. However, both are fall short for determining a bulb's PAR equivalency. 

Finally, plant growth is another form of evidence - it can be affected by many variables, however, and should be handled as such.

...

This thread is chock full of theory and opinion, improvement will happen only with evidence. 

"The ColorMax looks more green than the Fiji Purple, to the eye and in the picture." This is what I was offering, the closest thing to evidence without a PAR meter. We now know that the ColorMax does not equal the Fiji Purple.


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## hyroot (Dec 31, 2011)

I found a few hagen spectrum charts

aqua glo

View attachment 1966234

power glo





sun glo




marine glo



life glo




I don't know which he is referring to with fiji being similar. i would imagine its the aqua glo


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## hyroot (Dec 31, 2011)

PetFlora said:


> Does this look good for Flower?
> 
> 1-2 Plant Grows
> 1-2 AquaFloros ( or one Plant Grow + one Aquafloro)
> ...



i think the plant grows look weak. you should go with 4 aquaflora


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## hyroot (Dec 31, 2011)

from same zeovit forum


Dear Haaga,
here is a picture from my two coral lights. 
I hope you can see anything red






best regards
Th. 
Attached Thumbnails


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## Lucius Vorenus (Dec 31, 2011)

Anyone having any big buds growing with these yet?

Waiting for pics with some scale to show size.


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## hyroot (Dec 31, 2011)

I did. Didnt you see the pics I put up a while ago. Mine were indicas and a some sativa dominant hybrids. Those only get so big. I dont mess with pure sativas anymore. Thats what gets giant. I dont want to flower for 3 months.


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## Undercover Cop (Dec 31, 2011)

Can I be the first to wish everyone here a happy new year. Thanks to everyone for the intelligent conversation, and next year let us all remember, its just a plant! let it help reduce our stress, not cause it!  deuces!


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## PetFlora (Jan 2, 2012)

Looks like one AdvancedLED is listening. http://www.advancedledlights.com/3w-led-grow-lights/new-diamond-series-leds-extreme-3w-led-technology/

There new light uses Bridgelux 3 watt bulbs: _"*11+ Wavelengths of Color Output:* 760nm, 740nm, 720nm, 660nm, 630nm, 615nm-480nm, 460nm, 440nm, 415nm, 380nm" _Alas, they don't say how many of each in the literature. The small one 100 (92 actual) is a bargain at $295, but their 400 (~ 360) is $995. 

A small one ($295) in the middle with 2 @ 2 bulb HO T5s, one on each side, could be interesting


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 2, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Looks like one AdvancedLED is listening. http://www.advancedledlights.com/3w-led-grow-lights/new-diamond-series-leds-extreme-3w-led-technology/
> 
> There new light uses Bridgelux 3 watt bulbs: _"*11+ Wavelengths of Color Output:* 760nm, 740nm, 720nm, 660nm, 630nm, 615nm-480nm, 460nm, 440nm, 415nm, 380nm" _Alas, they don't say how many of each in the literature. The small one 100 (92 actual) is a bargain at $295, but their 400 (~ 360) is $995.
> 
> A small one ($295) in the middle with 2 @ 2 bulb HO T5s, one on each side, could be interesting


You must also remember that 3w led's are less efficient than 1W led... also most 3W led are 3x 1w on the same board... which is how they "sell" it !
Then to make matters worse most led manufacturers run their led's @ 750mw vs the 1k/mw in order to be more efficient. pbfft... i would love to crack that thing open and see what kind of cheap led's they've thrown in there...
Real 3w led's are approx >2$ each, so theres no way they are using quality LED.
http://www.theledlight.com/LuxeonLEDs.html


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 2, 2012)

At least they didnt try to advertise it as a 300w light using 100 3w LED's... not how they work but thats how most of the garbage led's on ebay are advertized.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 2, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> At least they didnt try to advertise it as a 300w light using 100 3w LED's... not how they work but thats how most of the garbage led's on ebay are advertized.


You are correct sir!

if anyone wants to see true LED lights

http://search.digikey.com/us/en/cat/optoelectronics/leds-high-brightness-power-modules/525140?k=Cree LMR4&vendor=90

http://orphek.com/led/orphek-products/pr-156/

[video=youtube;uzPlTIPpOdU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzPlTIPpOdU&amp;feature=fvwrel[/video]

http://blog.aquanerd.com/2011/06/more-info-on-the-orphek-3rd-gen-diodes.html








Let the Pr0f School ya 
These are REAL LED lighting products! and if i had the $$ i would buy THESE and nothing else! but for the price of one of these i could buy 5KW of T5!


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## okthanks2 (Jan 2, 2012)

Well, I tested out the ATI ProColor bulbs I bought. I started with 4 plants all 4 inches tall. I put 4 procolor and 4 spectralux bulbs into an 8 bulb 2 foot T5 sunblaze and vegged for 10 days. The plants grew 24". The leaves are about 10" in diameter! They stretched like crazy however, but I have never seen anything like this before. Absolutely insane! Would NOT recommend for vegging due to the stretch, but WOULD recommend for flowering due to the HUGE SIZE OF THE FAN LEAVES! I know they are discontinued, but they are just PINK bulbs. Nothing more. These pink bulbs are available from about 3 other companies. They are "PLANT GROW" bulbs. Basically, red, white, and blue color light in one bulb. They also come in the compact florescent version, but they are identical to the aqua medic plant grow and zoo med flora sun. I have found the flora sun's to be very unreliable however. Anyway, for sure add this bulb to your flowering regimen. My next experiment will be to combine 4 ProColor and 4 Ati Blue Plus to veg with to see if it will control the stretch and still produce huge fan leaves and an extreme growth rate.


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## organicbynature (Jan 3, 2012)

Have the Flora Suns been acting up on you, okthanks2?

I've got 6 going right now and haven't had any problems yet.

Anyone interested in some pics with T5s as supplemental lighting? I've got HPS and LED as my overheads.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 3, 2012)

organicbynature said:


> Have the Flora Suns been acting up on you, okthanks2?
> 
> I've got 6 going right now and haven't had any problems yet.
> 
> Anyone interested in some pics with T5s as supplemental lighting? I've got HPS and LED as my overheads.


The more pics the better, thats what Ive got (- the leds) HPS/cool tube w 8 t5s on the sides


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## hyroot (Jan 3, 2012)

I.want to rock some pro colors. So two 2ft 8 bulbs vs one 4ft 8 bulb. thoughts?


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 3, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I.want to rock some pro colors. So two 2ft 8 bulbs vs one 4ft 8 bulb. thoughts?


I would think the two fixtures would give you more room for adjustability, putting them at just the right level over certain plants. however each T5 bulb has an inch or two at each end that produce less light than the center... out of two 24" tubes you may loose 4-8" total usable tube over the length of 4ft (1-2" from each of 4 tube ends). One single fixture may be abit more efficient but is obviously bigger and thusly harder to adjust to the perfect light for all your plants. my 2cents

I know you know, but others may not know the ProColors are discontinued and only available in 24" tubes until the stock is used up.


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## PetFlora (Jan 3, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> At least they didnt try to advertise it as a 300w light using 100 3w LED's... not how they work but thats how most of the garbage led's on ebay are advertized.


I guess you missed this then* Massive New 3w Single Chip LEDs*

*




*​ [h=3]_The Biggest Breakthrough in LED Grow Light Technology. Period._[/h] 



*Available Models: 100w, 200w, 300w, 400w, 600w, 800w *
*Runs Cool and Saves Electricity! *
*Exclusive NEW Diamond Series Lens Built into each LED!*

*Grow Cycle Switch - Select your color output and intensity or run full strength.*

*3w High Output LEDs - Bridgelux, Epistar and SemiLED
*
*Daisy Chain Feature - Run multiple lights with just one cord to plug in.*

*90 Day Money Back Guarantee.*


----------



## Undercover Cop (Jan 3, 2012)

I also saw where they correctly show the models power draw vs # of diodes... the 300w panel uses 150 3w diodes at about 62% power on average, consuming 275w. Almost every panel out there, especially the BS ones on ebay would list that as a 450w fixture.

The average idiot would see a bigger diode and say "sure thats a 3w led all right", then count 150 of em and be happy with their 450w fixture. They're not gonna tear it open to look at the circuitry inside or even know what they're looking at. I was praising them for being honest. It does look like some pretty good quality, but performance vs $$$ who knows, maybe in the long run, who knows.


*Model *
*Total Coverage *
*Core Coverage *
*LED Specs*
*Avg. Power Draw*
*DS100*
*2.5ft x 3ft*
*2ft x 2.5ft*
*(50) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)*
*92w*
*DS200 *
*3ft x 3.5ft*
*2.5ft x 3ft*
*(100) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)*
*185w*
*DS300 *
*3.5ft x 4ft*
*3ft x 3ft*
*(150) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)*
*275w*
*DS400 *
*3ft x 4.5ft*
*2.5ft x 4ft*
*(200) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)*
*360w*
*DS600*
*3.5ft x 4.5ft*
*3ft x 4ft*
*(300) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)*
*540w*
*DS800*
*4.5ft x 5.5ft*
*3.5ft x 4.5ft*
*(400) 3w High Output LEDs (single chip)*
*710w*



... I love seeing the value packs of grow light cfls on ebay... 500watts of grow light power! 2 150w cfls and 2 100w cfls only $30!... when its just two 26w and two 42w cfls being advertized as the incandescent equivalents and marked up a few hundred percent and sold to the gullible. They're not lying because those are 3w leds (underdriven, like most are) but its good to see them actually displaying the stats and not just leaving you to count 150 tiny led's then do the math on your own and wonder how they came up with the 300w from 150 3w leds.



again, Im sure they give good PAR light and all, but like with most LED's the $ is prohibitive for most... for their 800w unit you could get 6 of my radiion 8 bulb fixtures and light an 8x4 area or 6x6 with better spread, (although using 2500w of power still, w/ the resulting heat) I think the heat from their 800w would be around a single 8bulb t5, there are fans built in so it wont get very hot but it will still produce some heat.


----------



## Undercover Cop (Jan 3, 2012)

pics from yesterday, 28days in...


 

View attachment 1971055

The nice short one is a complete random seed from a buddies bag of kindbud, but I think it may have Cheese genetics, cuz it smells rather cheesy and Ive never smelled that before lol, skunky sure but cheesy? not so much lol.


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## milfblaster (Jan 3, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> You are correct sir!
> 
> if anyone wants to see true LED lights
> View attachment 1970076
> ...


I wonder if e.shine systems makes that light? It looks similar. It doesn't look to put out much red though.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 3, 2012)

So im gonna start a grow next week and have 4 8 bulb Badboys free to grow under and all the right bulbs. Realistically how would be the most efficient way to setup and how many plants would you attempt to grow under a 32 bulb setup? I was WANTING to do 5 per fixture but think that might be too much and was thinking 3 might be most beneficial.

Thoughts?


----------



## Calrt (Jan 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> So im gonna start a grow next week and have 4 8 bulb Badboys free to grow under and all the right bulbs. Realistically how would be the most efficient way to setup and how many plants would you attempt to grow under a 32 bulb setup? I was WANTING to do 5 per fixture but think that might be too much and was thinking 3 might be most beneficial.Thoughts?


I have 6 per and they seem comfy....I would do that many again.


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## Calrt (Jan 3, 2012)

I am at day 26 now and the HPS is really running away from the T5. I would say almost double in size now! I will very some pics soon. The T5s look healthier and much darker green. But just not producing as much at this point. They have come to a crawl after growing like mad out of the gate for the first 14g days. I have 4 red suns, 3 fijis and 1 454 for the past week. I had 2 coral waves in there when they seemed to stall and added another Fiji and red sun in hopes of helping. No luck. Should O pick up some Plant grows? Throw two of those in there? What do you think?


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 3, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> You are correct sir!
> 
> if anyone wants to see true LED lights
> View attachment 1970076
> ...


Interesting post... Here is the spectrum, with all LEDs ON







Is that enough RED flower power?


----------



## Psytranceorgy (Jan 3, 2012)

I guess I'm more inclined to like graphs like:

plant grow







flora sun






colormax







etc...
etc...

...and if the KZ Fiji Purple is truly (BTW HYROOT!!! VERY NICE FIND ON THAT THOMAS POHL POST A FEW PAGES BACK!!!) a Hagen Aqua Glow bulb minus the yellow/green/orange... then the Fiji Purple is would truly be a wonderful bulb...


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 3, 2012)

Calrt said:


> I am at day 26 now and the HPS is really running away from the T5. I would say almost double in size now! I will very some pics soon. The T5s look healthier and much darker green. But just not producing as much at this point. They have come to a crawl after growing like mad out of the gate for the first 14g days. I have 4 red suns, 3 fijis and 1 454 for the past week. I had 2 coral waves in there when they seemed to stall and added another Fiji and red sun in hopes of helping. No luck. Should O pick up some Plant grows? Throw two of those in there? What do you think?


Based on your post above this one you have too many plants under each fixture most likely. I think 3-4 flowering plants under 488 watts is probably a fair number


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 3, 2012)

Hagen Aqua Glo seems to be a 40 watt bulb, is that correct?


----------



## Psytranceorgy (Jan 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Hagen Aqua Glo seems to be a 40 watt bulb, is that correct?



       A-1580   Aqua~Glo Fluorescent Aquarium Bulb - 12" - T5 8W
     
   A-1581   Aqua~Glo Fluorescent Aquarium Bulb - 15" - T8 14W
     
   A-1582   Aqua~Glo Fluorescent Aquarium Bulb - 18" - T8 15W
        A-1583   Aqua~Glo Fluorescent Aquarium Bulb - 24" - T8 20W
        A-1585   Aqua~Glo Fluorescent Aquarium Bulb - 36" - T8 30W
        A-1587   Aqua~Glo Fluorescent Aquarium Bulb - 48" - T8 40W


----------



## milfblaster (Jan 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Hagen Aqua Glo seems to be a 40 watt bulb, is that correct?


I think it's T8 only.


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## Calrt (Jan 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Based on your post above this one you have too many plants under each fixture most likely. I think 3-4 flowering plants under 488 watts is probably a fair number


Does that mean that there are too many under the HPS as well? They look fantastic and have less room then the T5s as they are more bushy.


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## hyroot (Jan 3, 2012)

I have 8 under mine and they are 3 feet tall. They are comfortbale with plenty of room. Im also doing pure indicas though. I plan on getting them bigger on the next that I have vegging now.


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## Calrt (Jan 3, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I have 8 under mine and they are 3 feet tall. They are comfortbale with plenty of room. Im also doing pure indicas though. I plan on getting them bigger on the next that I have vegging now.


Mine are about 30" and seem to have plent of room at 6, 8 would be crowded in my tent. 5'x3' tent with 4'x2' tray


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## ohiogrown03 (Jan 3, 2012)

here are some pics at week 7, had a spider mite problem 2 weeks ago, eliminated them, they are back to plumping/growing new white hairs after i burned the hairs with the water/pepper spray mixture under lights. None of the hairs have naturally turned red yet. also note that a branch broke off during a move to a new house and i've been drying it out the past week and a half tried a bit today, very head/energetic high at first, not super strong, but lasted a while. just showing some updated pics and looking for any advice how much longer and a little bit of bud shots for skeptics, note this is my first grow.View attachment 1971956View attachment 1971957View attachment 1971958View attachment 1971959View attachment 1971960you can go back a bit or search this thread to see pics along the way.


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## hyroot (Jan 3, 2012)

Calrt said:


> Mine are about 30" and seem to have plent of room at 6, 8 would be crowded in my tent. 5'x3' tent with 4'x2' tray


I dont have a tent. I have a room dedicated to it. So I can spread them out slightly more with out raising the light too much


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## organicbynature (Jan 3, 2012)

OK, here's some T5 side lighting. There are two four-bulb fixtures in the (400w) HPS tent and two two-bulb fixtures with the LEDs. The T5s are an even mix of Flora Suns and Coral Waves. I posted a shot of just the bulbs here a while ago, if anyone wants to see what that looks like.

HPS Tent - Day 43 of 12/12






LED Tent - Day 43 of 12/12






HPS Orange Crush - Day 43 of 12/12






LED Orange Crush - Day 43 of 12/12


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 3, 2012)

day29


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## PetFlora (Jan 4, 2012)

This might solve our Far Red problem. Any thoughts? Will it cover a 2 x 4 area... does placement matter...?

http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight-%2d-15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 4, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Interesting post... Here is the spectrum, with all LEDs ON
> 
> Is that enough RED flower power?


Its not the spectrum just the quality of the LED i was trying to show you the difference in the so called GROW LED vs a much higher quality LED color is irrelevant because the LED manufacturers produce them in plenty of colors those just happen to be the cool white variety.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 4, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Well, I tested out the ATI ProColor bulbs I bought. I started with 4 plants all 4 inches tall. I put 4 procolor and 4 spectralux bulbs into an 8 bulb 2 foot T5 sunblaze and vegged for 10 days. The plants grew 24". The leaves are about 10" in diameter! They stretched like crazy however, but I have never seen anything like this before. Absolutely insane! Would NOT recommend for vegging due to the stretch, but WOULD recommend for flowering due to the HUGE SIZE OF THE FAN LEAVES! I know they are discontinued, but they are just PINK bulbs. Nothing more. These pink bulbs are available from about 3 other companies. They are "PLANT GROW" bulbs. Basically, red, white, and blue color light in one bulb. They also come in the compact florescent version, but they are identical to the aqua medic plant grow and zoo med flora sun. I have found the flora sun's to be very unreliable however. Anyway, for sure add this bulb to your flowering regimen. My next experiment will be to combine 4 ProColor and 4 Ati Blue Plus to veg with to see if it will control the stretch and still produce huge fan leaves and an extreme growth rate.


I have pro colors before they went out of production and they are NOT pink,.... far from it actually they are quite redder than the other red bulbs..


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 4, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Its not the spectrum just the quality of the LED i was trying to show you the difference in the so called GROW LED vs a much higher quality LED color is irrelevant because the LED manufacturers produce them in plenty of colors those just happen to be the cool white variety.


Cool. I actually figured as much after I posted, but thanks for clarifying! Those do look like awesome LEDs =D


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## rollinbud (Jan 4, 2012)

I know this is a little off topic but does anyone know if a UV heat lamp would be okay for some flowering plants? I have no idea what the spectrum is? TIA


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 4, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I have pro colors before they went out of production and they are NOT pink,.... far from it actually they are quite redder than the other red bulbs..









This was the only ATI ProColor spectrum graph that I ever found on the Aquarium forums back when I was looking (this is page 55 or something)... I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking... I am not sure if it is 100% legit, but there it is again for what it is worth...


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 4, 2012)

rollinbud said:


> I know this is a little off topic but does anyone know if a UV heat lamp would be okay for some flowering plants? I have no idea what the spectrum is? TIA


No such thing... UV is 10~400nm heat lamps are infrared 750 nm - 1 mm


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 4, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> This was the only ATI ProColor spectrum graph that I ever found on the Aquarium forums back when I was looking (this is page 55 or something)... I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking... I am not sure if it is 100% legit, but there it is again for what it is worth...


Tose are right...
remember 48" bulbs will appear darker than the 24" variety due to the amount of light per foot. but they are MUCH darker than my fijis and a smidge darker than the red suns.. its a noticeable difference.. that aside they are dead tech... moving on...


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## rollinbud (Jan 4, 2012)

I stand corrected, it is indeed infrared. Would it be okay to run on a flowering plant for a little heat?


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## okthanks2 (Jan 4, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I have pro colors before they went out of production and they are NOT pink,.... far from it actually they are quite redder than the other red bulbs..


NOT PINK?? Here's a photo, I must be colorblind because these are pretty damn pink! You sure you have ProColors? Notice the word ProColor on the bulb. Post photos of your "red" ProColors please, it would be nice to see the difference you are talking about here.

From top to bottom: Spectralux 6500K, ATI ProColor, KZ Fiji Purple


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## pedro420 (Jan 4, 2012)

hey everyone ive been reading thisthread and i realy likethe setup im useing a t5 4ft 4bulb and ive been trying to findout what bulbs touse im realy interested in the setup professur has and im wondering what bulbs i should get 

this is what ive been thinking of so far 
fiji purple light
the red sun light
and a blue light 

sorry for not knowing the names rite off hand but i am wondering if nebody could help with links for the bulbs ive been looking but i can only find the 24 in bulbs and i havea 4 ft ballest (47.5 in)


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 4, 2012)

rollinbud said:


> I stand corrected, it is indeed infrared. Would it be okay to run on a flowering plant for a little heat?


Nope plants dont need heat from those sources that will only dehydrate them.. if you need warmth add light!


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## pedro420 (Jan 4, 2012)

hey would these be good lights to use

kz fiji purple by korallen zucht 
454 nm by uv
or 
ati blue plus 
ati purple plus

the only bulb i couldnt find is the red sun bulb all i could find of it is the v-ho and i just want the ho
any advice and help wiuld be great


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## Indicanna Jones (Jan 5, 2012)

hi *pr0fesseur* im currently in the 4th week of flower under 3 3000k, 1 6500k 2' t5's & 2 26 watt 2700 cfls for side lighting. i am wondering what would be the best combination of the t5's i have & actinic t5's. thanks in advance for any advice.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 5, 2012)

Heh, no comment eh? You like to go around telling people they are wrong and then not correcting yourself? Seems to me everyone is doing the actual testing of these bulbs for you. I've spent over $800 on T5 bulbs and have found the only real results to be with the ProColors or PINK plant bulbs. If you have results to show, why don't you show them? I haven't seen any photos from you and yet you are the one that started this thread. Is this just some idea that you had that you wanted others to test for you? I'm not getting it so far. People, stick with HPS and MH. Plants don't like low intensity lights, save your money!


----------



## ohiogrown03 (Jan 5, 2012)

While I will say that it is a little strange that pr0f hasn't shown or even gone into much detail at all about a harvest and keeps stating it's not about yield, just a test, etc. He never stated that you or anyone else should invest large amounts of money into testing/experimenting unless you have the time and money to spend on it. I personally went with the t5 and a mixture of bulbs in this thread due to the time i found the thread was the time I was starting some new plants so it was perfect for vegging my plants and didn't need to add any inline fans or duct work for cooling the lights(i knew i'd be moving in a couple/few months and didn't want to invest money into a room only to tear it down in a couple months). This was a major factor in my choice to try it out. I did like the results in the tight spacing of the nodes. I also used the 8 lamp fixture in conjunction with a 400 hps during flower with the t5 as side/angled lighting. While I am no scientist or botanist I do have common sense and have had many successful outdoor vegetable gardens and a handful of friends who have been growing with hps/mh for years and did comment that they were VERY suprised/impressed of the quality of the plant before I even added the 400hps. So there is something to the bulbs, but until we can get the intensity of the HID lights i think it won't make a huge difference in smaller plants, but larger/bushier plants would probably suffer a bit from the lack of intensity unless you had way, WAY more money invested in several, 5+, t5 fixtures and bulbs arranged in a pentagon type shape around the plant and above or something like that. 

pr0f i do appreciate this thread and have had good results so far, i've actually removed the 400 hps because i didn't notice much of a difference between having it on and having it off. Like i said before i mainly added the 400 hps during flower to make sure it worked reliable for a month. I do still plan on getting a 600 or 1000 watt hps for flowering to compare the results to what i got with the t5 this time, and just because my gut feeling is that a combination of two, t5 and hps, will give ME what I am looking for. 

bottom line, don't blame OP for telling you to try this or "help" him test it out. He was just trying to show that there are other options that could be as viable if not more viable than the current way of doing things. If something is working for you and has been for a while, there aren't too many people who will dump money/time/effort into trying to find a new/better way of accomplishing the same goal. I think this is more of the track that this thread was started in, a lets see what happens when we try this, because going by the papers/numbers this looks like it could potentially save us a bit of money on cooling lights, less amps on the fixtures, etc. just my 35 cents.


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## aoyanagi (Jan 5, 2012)

Indeed, for a semi-noob like me who has to use either t5 or CFLs (I live in New Mexico, it can easily go well over 100 every day for months at a time in summer, no way in hell can I afford to cool HID with what I have to invest in my personal medical grow.) Being able to get a bigger healthier crop out of my 1-2 plants with what $ I will be able to work with excites me and I'm grateful people are doing these tests to educate the poor-asses of the world like me. I'm sorry you feel so gypped, I'd be interested in buying your gently used bulbs if you're getting rid of them and it would be cost effective to ship.

Big thanks to everyone who's been posting their tests of various bulbs, especially the ones/brands to avoid. Any thoughts on a 4 or 6 bulb t5, what dimension lengthwise I'd be looking at to get a fairly square light footprint for a tent scrog? Talking to my dispensary turns out the LSD is much slower flowering and benefits from a longer veg than the Lemon Skunk (they offer both as clones) so I'll probably be a one-plant fussypants babied gardener. Plan is to flip the skunk fairly quickly, maybe just fim or top it a couple of times before finishing veg and going to flower. Then once that's cut start my LSD and give her the time she needs in veg fimming all the way to a box-encompassing scrog (insert evil laugh here) to get her hopefully producing a bit more. Organic soil grow, toying with the idea of trying a small yeast farm for CO2 supplementation. Need to look more into it. Legal medical grow so stealth isn't a huge issue, but with kids about in the neighborhood discretion still is.

So yeah, thanks guys!


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## organicbynature (Jan 5, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Heh, no comment eh? You like to go around telling people they are wrong and then not correcting yourself? Seems to me everyone is doing the actual testing of these bulbs for you. I've spent over $800 on T5 bulbs and have found the only real results to be with the ProColors or PINK plant bulbs. If you have results to show, why don't you show them? I haven't seen any photos from you and yet you are the one that started this thread. Is this just some idea that you had that you wanted others to test for you? I'm not getting it so far. People, stick with HPS and MH. Plants don't like low intensity lights, save your money!



I have to say, I see where you're coming from here. There does seem to be a disconnect between Pr0f's theoretical expertise and actual accomplishments. Personally, what bothers me is the apparent (to me) mixing of good information and bad information along with a healthy dose of self-righteousness.

According to Pr0f, his efforts were to test the viability of the concept, not to compete with other forms of lighting technology (or even against other T5 setups including bulbs he does not have, presumably). So there are no experiential grounds there for some of the self-assured proclamations of bulb value that we're hearing repeatedly (and of course there's the die-hard Fiji promotion that makes everyone who comes to this thread believe they must have these $30 bulbs).

Of course, when it comes down to it we're all responsible for our own choices and Pr0f isn't making anyone do anything that they don't want to. He wasn't the first person to come up with this concept, but it looks like he was the first to do so on RIU and whether or not it is optimum as the only light to be used in flower, choosing PAR-focused T5s definitely makes sense to do if you're using T5s.

Speaking for myself, I'm very happy with them as side-lighting at this point, both with HPS and LED. I am interested in doing an all-T5 grow, but would like to see more people have success with it before I take the plunge. 

I do not thank Pr0f for some of the (IMO) misinformation that he spreads, but I do thank him for starting this thread and sharing a very worthwhile concept with us. Does he over-sell it? Possibly. But we don't have to buy. 

I do understand where your frustration comes from.


----------



## okthanks2 (Jan 5, 2012)

This is starting to get weird. First of all I never "blamed" anyone for purchasing T5 bulbs. I did however state that the PINK T5 bulbs, i.e. ProColor, FloraSun, Plant Grow, work for REAL! I just wouldn't veg under them due to the stretch. So far, all the blue bulbs I have tried, i.e. Fiji Purple, Blue Plus, Actinic, have only cause growth to get stunted. What I would like to see are some actual results (photos) of healthy plants. So far I have only seen one post with nice growth (undercurrent). I have done the testing already and my results STILL stand. My answer STILL stands: do not waste your money on these expenisve ass aquarium bulbs except for the pink ones. If you have a temp problem get an aquarium chiller or a/c. It is ALOT cheaper than buying T5 bulbs that may or may not even work at $25 a piece. Reality check!


----------



## organicbynature (Jan 5, 2012)

Are you saying the blue bulbs stunted your plants growth in veg, flower, or both? Did the pink ones stretch your plants in veg in the presence of blue bulbs?


----------



## overTHEman (Jan 5, 2012)

okthanks2,



okthanks2 said:


> Heh, no comment eh? You like to go around telling people they are wrong and then not correcting yourself? Seems to me everyone is doing the actual testing of these bulbs for you. I've spent over $800 on T5 bulbs and have found the only real results to be with the ProColors or PINK plant bulbs. If you have results to show, why don't you show them? I haven't seen any photos from you and yet you are the one that started this thread. Is this just some idea that you had that you wanted others to test for you? I'm not getting it so far. People, stick with HPS and MH. Plants don't like low intensity lights, save your money!


This the pr0fesseur's thread and he has earned his keep. 

We are participating because we believe in this idea and are willing to take risks for experimentation's sake. If that does not describe you; sell your PAR equipment, get that HID and a bigger fan. 

Otherwise, post a pic and ask a few questions. There are plenty of experienced individuals here who would be more than happy to help diagnose any issue you may be having.


----------



## okthanks2 (Jan 5, 2012)

I already did post a photo of the gnarly twisted stunted growth I got under the blue lights. Since then, I switched back to pink and 6500k and everything is fine. There is PLENTY of blue light already in regular 6500k bulbs because it is the nature of flourescent lighting to have useful blue light in them. The intense blue light that comes from the "blue only" bulbs is problematic. Balance of wavelengths is important. I still laugh when someone says sunlight has a bunch of wasted wavelengths yet still proves to be the best light for growth. And Yes, to answer your question, the blue T5s have been stunting in flower and veg. I have tried about 100 different light combos and am not finished testing yet. So far, however, the tests I've done indicate what I have stated already about 4 times. I'm trying to present helpful info here through testing myself. Who knows, maybe the strain that is being tested reacts to blue light differently than yours? That will never be known. All I can do is present info I have gathered from my own experience.


----------



## okthanks2 (Jan 5, 2012)

I firmly beleive that these aquarium bulbs should be used as supplement to 6500k lights or HID. I think they would prove as a great addition much like LED. Bring on the photos of good, healthy vigorous growth people!


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## overTHEman (Jan 5, 2012)

Just be positive here, we PAR T5-ers are a small community and would benefit from sticking together. 

Also, do you have a link to your grow journal? It would be great to follow along, regardless of the outcome.


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## hyroot (Jan 5, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> I already did post a photo of the gnarly twisted stunted growth I got under the blue lights. Since then, I switched back to pink and 6500k and everything is fine. There is PLENTY of blue light already in regular 6500k bulbs because it is the nature of flourescent lighting to have useful blue light in them. The intense blue light that comes from the "blue only" bulbs is problematic. Balance of wavelengths is important. I still laugh when someone says sunlight has a bunch of wasted wavelengths yet still proves to be the best light for growth. And Yes, to answer your question, the blue T5s have been stunting in flower and veg. I have tried about 100 different light combos and am not finished testing yet. So far, however, the tests I've done indicate what I have stated already about 4 times. I'm trying to present helpful info here through testing myself. Who knows, maybe the strain that is being tested reacts to blue light differently than yours? That will never be known. All I can do is present info I have gathered from my own experience.




From what ive seen in my garden. The fijis have produced the best results. The side of the light with more fijis, the buds swell up more than the side with more redsuns. So I swapped one redsun for a fiji. The results are definitely comparable to hid size. Ive been hunting like crazy to find a another bulb like the fiji and cheaper but not have been successful. 

For me the best combo for flower is fiji / redsun / coral wave / fiji / fiji / coral wave / redsun / fiji.

For veg I set aside the bulbs I got and saving for next flower t5. Instead got all coralifes. 3 actinics and 3 6700k having them placed every other slot in a 6 bulb.

Have you run the pro colors by themselves? When I've seen them, they appear very red.Thats why I want to use them. When next to a mostly blue bulb, they appear pink. Just like the fiji looks very purple but when placed next to a red bulb it appears blue. For reef tanks, people want mostly blue and in every reef forum no one likes the pro color because its too red. Run every bulb by itself first.

Also if pink bulbs are producing more stretching in veg then obviously there is more blue than red in that bulb and would only be good to use one or two in flower. Ive seen first hand with cfls and t5 and hid how much more blue causes more stretching during veg. As soon as I added red the stretching stopped. It went from 6 to 8 inches between nodes to half an inch or an inch between nodes. 

So I think you might have your spectrums backwards for your experiment. All those bulbs you like have peaks in the right places but very low peaks. The ones I use dont.


Ive noticed with prof, he has several times said some thing wrong or backwards and I have even called him on it. Sometimes he says you're right my bad bro. Or he just likes your post and doesn't say anything. if anyone makes a post that is obviously asinine to everyone. he does not say anything unless it involves explaining it in a mathematical way. He is not god and you treat him as if he is infallable. Yes he can come off more arrogant at times. Doesn't everyone. 

Also dont you use 2ft t5? You cant compare that to a 4ft. The 2ft puts out much less light than a 4ft.



Happy growing


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## pedro420 (Jan 5, 2012)

hyroot - are the par t5s you use ho or vho 

i have been thinking about useing the fiji and the redsun but im only going to have 4 bulbs in my t5 ballest so what do you think would be a good combo for veg and flower


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## hyroot (Jan 5, 2012)

Im using ho, we all are. Not all these bulbs come in vho, plus vho burns rheough bulbs twice as fast.


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## Calrt (Jan 5, 2012)

Day 26 Time for a little update.
They are all coming along nicely but the HPS plants are much larger. The T5s are a little more smelly though, but about 50% the size. Here are some pics for size comparison. 

I am thinking about putting a Flora Sun or two to get into the 660nm range and add some green. I would pull the 454 at that point and maybe a red sun. Any thoughts?

*Strain: Lemon Kush
Lights: 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast.
T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 4 Red Suns, 3 Fijis, 1 454
Temps with the lights ON 75-77 degrees OFF around 62-65
RH 23-30*


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## hyroot (Jan 5, 2012)

Calrt said:


> Day 26 Time for a little update.
> They are all coming along nicely but the HPS plants are not much larger. The T5s are a little more smelly though, but about 50% the size. Here are some pics for size comparison.
> 
> I am thinking about putting a Flora Sun or two to get into the 660nm range and add some green. I would pull the 454 at that point and maybe a red sun. Any thoughts?
> ...


Looks good are you using both lights together or doing a comparison between the two?


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## Calrt (Jan 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Looks good are you using both lights together or doing a comparison between the two?


Side by side comparison. *600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast in one tent and **T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 4 Red Suns, 3 Fijis, 1 454* in the other. Same nutes, close to the same temps as I can. The HPS is running away with yield at this point. This is my first grow as well....


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## okthanks2 (Jan 5, 2012)

Calrt, lookin real nice! What did you veg under? What bulb colors etc.? 

Hyroot, you have it backwards. BLUE is for veg, red for flower. I've never heard of blue light causing plants to stretch. Blue light is supposed to keep the internodes closer together and make growth more compact. 

And no, I am not giving up yet on the T5 "christmas light" growing yet, after all I did spend $800 on the bulbs. I'm only advising people not to invest in them quite yet until we get some rock solid results from more than 1 person. 

I am starting another test: 2 fiji, 2 ati blue, 2 ati pink(procolor), 2 red sun. This will be for veg. I have a plant under those bulbs and one under 6, 6500k spectralux and 2 ati pink(procolor). This should be an ultimate deciding factor if the other pretty colors are advantagous or just pretty colors and nothing more. I will report back in 10 day time.

I would like to add, even though my plants haven't taken off under the purple/blue lights, they are staying quite a bit more green than my plants under the HPS light. Its making me think that these expensive T5 aquarium lights are like vitamins to plants. They are keeping things green but not providing the energy or main food source. Just food for thought. I think 6500k lights have been preferred for so long by growers because of the balance of red and blue in them. Anything higher and plants get stunted, anything lower and they start to stretch. More food for thought. The best growth I have ever seen has been under 6.4k sunpulse bulbs. Keep in mind, I am only talking about veg here. Do not think for one second I am referring to flower. I pointed out about 30 pages back that I joined this thread to find the perfect veg combination light. So far it has been the 6500k/pink T5 mixture or the sunpulse 6.4k. The only downfall with the pink is the stretch. I hope to solve the problem by adding a couple Fiji to the white/pink t5 mix.


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## hyroot (Jan 5, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Calrt, lookin real nice! What did you veg under? What bulb colors etc.?
> 
> Hyroot, you have it backwards. BLUE is for veg, red for flower. I've never heard of blue light causing plants to stretch. Blue light is supposed to keep the internodes closer together and make growth more compact.
> 
> ...


I didnt say I swapped blue for red. I added red to the mix. You want more blue than red in veg but you want some red to keep from stretching. In flower you want some blue to keep it from stretching. You want both spectrum in both veg and flower. 60/40 or 70/30. Try running bulbs that are competely blue with no red and see what happens. Mh and hps bothe have blue and red in them.

Like I said too fijis are my friend. anyway those do seem to be the best bulb for flower anyway so
far. For veg im having good reslults with the coralife actinics and 6700k


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## okthanks2 (Jan 5, 2012)

Hyroot, I never said that YOU said you swapped blue for red. I never even used those words so I don't know where you are getting that from in my statement. But I also have never heard that adding red would prevent stretching, I beleive you have that backwards. Anyway, this is really getting hard to communicate when people keep adding things or ideas to my statements that I never said. Please read and re-read if it doesn't make sense. I would still like some feedback as far as veg goes i.e. light configuration that has worked for anyone imparticular. It seems like people are responding to only one sentence in my post rather than the whole post. I know I've clearly presented more than one idea at a time. Please read the entire post so ideas don't have to be repeated over and over anymore.


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## Calrt (Jan 5, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Calrt, lookin real nice! What did you veg under? What bulb colors etc.?


Vegged under 600w MH, they were "extras" from a friend


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## tehshyt (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm ready to join this grand experiment!
Just got my 4' 6 bulb badboy and 8 bulbs from AS

I Currently have the following bulbs:
- 2x Fuji Purple
- UVL Super Actinic w/internal reflector
- ATI T5 12000K Aquablue Special
- UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
- 3xUVL Red Sun

(I ordered the UVL 454 w/ internal reflector but alas, they are on back order)

I was planning on vegging (as per pr0f's suggestion) with:
- 2x Fuji Purple
- UVL Super Actinic w/internal reflector
- ATI T5 12000K Aquablue Special
- UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
-UVL 454

BUT I DONT HAVE THE 454 yet. 
What would you guys recommend for my vegging configuration in light of this fact?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 5, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> (I ordered the UVL 454 w/ internal reflector but alas, they are on back order)
> 
> I was planning on vegging (as per pr0f's suggestion) with:
> - 2x Fuji Purple
> ...



It's going to be a while before Aq has the 454 with I.R.'s, I'd have them send out ones without.

Those bulbs look great for veg!.. I would slip a red sun between some blue bulbs and call it good till you get the rest of your order.


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## tehshyt (Jan 5, 2012)

Thanks for the reply. I actually already have the bulbs in my possession and I'll be getting this thing going very soon.

should I just say "fuck it" with the 454 and tell them to refund me for it? or does it seem like a worthwhile bulb to have in the long run?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 5, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> I would still like some feedback as far as veg goes i.e. light configuration that has worked for anyone imparticular.


420 Actinic+
Redsun
454
75.25
Fiji 
Is what I've been using for veg and I'm very happy with it, because the t5 is not HID and doesn't penetrate as well I veg my plants to be wider than tall there for giving me great penetration up to 18" and keeping my internodes at less than an inch. Now after 2 months I transplant them into a HID flower room where there's up to 4X's the light. 

Re: The 2 plants I flowered under the par light.
During flower I eliminated the 420nm+.... unfortunately I didn't catch the memo about taking the 75.25 out as well, The plants looked great & smelled great but never put on any good weight, however the tricrome development was very good under the t5! and the finished product smells and tastes better than the same strain under Hid light. 
I think for flower the best is a combo of the 2, HID top light and T5 side light. HID giving you the penetration and ability to grow donks' and the T5's adding potency, flavor & smell. 

Happy growing 
Uc~

P.S. I will remind everyone that these bulbs are only rated for 10,000 hours


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 5, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> Thanks for the reply. I actually already have the bulbs in my possession and I'll be getting this thing going very soon.
> 
> should I just say "fuck it" with the 454 and tell them to refund me for it? or does it seem like a worthwhile bulb to have in the long run?



I think the fiji produces some 454nm, but the graph for the 454 bulb is very impressive and worth while in my opinion... you have another blue bulb that I'm not familiar with you might be getting 454 from there!


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## pedro420 (Jan 5, 2012)

hyroot - i knno i dont want to get the vho bulbs ive been trying to find the ho bulbs but i cant seem to find redsun in ho 

so for veg im thinging
2x fiji purpke 
and just useing the grow t5 bulb

flowerin 
2x fiji bulbs and the bloom bulbs 

or do you guys think i should use redsun for flower if i can find ho and use the blue for veg if i can get them in ho also 
if anybody has a good link for the bulbs that would be awlsome


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## hyroot (Jan 5, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> hyroot - i knno i dont want to get the vho bulbs ive been trying to find the ho bulbs but i cant seem to find redsun in ho
> 
> so for veg im thinging
> 2x fiji purpke
> ...


http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting/t5-lamps/uv-lighting/uv-lighting-t5-lamps/uv-lighting-red-sun-t5-lamp

48 vho are 96 watts to 110 watts


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## pedro420 (Jan 5, 2012)

thanks for the link the only ones i could find before thst where all like 94w and i know vho bulbs are a waste 

as for the veg and flower cycle goes should i use all the par lights or just use a few with tehe regular t5 bulbs that came with the ballest


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## hyroot (Jan 5, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> 420 Actinic+
> Redsun
> 454
> 75.25
> ...


mmmmmmmmmmmm krystal steal.


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## hyroot (Jan 5, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> thanks for the link the only ones i could find before thst where all like 94w and i know vho bulbs are a waste
> 
> as for the veg and flower cycle goes should i use all the par lights or just use a few with tehe regular t5 bulbs that came with the ballest



you can use the 6500k bulbs for veg they work fine. if you want throw in some good bulbs you can. the con to the 6500k is a little more stretching and slower growth. i posted a few times that i grabbed the coralife bulbs for veg the actinic and the 6700k and they are 16.99 or 15.99 at petco. i got the same number as each. they grow a lot faster with those bulbs and tighter nodes.

everyone here has sort of came up with their own array of bulb selection. i went with the original recommended and changed it a little here and there.




if you want to and can afford it go for it. if not then wait. this is the most expensive hobby. except for maybe off roading


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## tehshyt (Jan 5, 2012)

This will be my first grow, and for the sake of this experiment, I want to make sure I give my plants ideal conditions to grow to their fullest potential.

So, Consider the following: My grow area will be *47'' wide, 20'' deep, 47'' tall*
As stated previously, I will be using a 6 bulb PAR t5
I will grow with organic soil in smart pots.
I will be implementing a SCROG
(also, I have a ventilation system that will suffice)

My question is this: How many plants and what size pots would be ideal for the most time/energy efficient yield?
(I'm thinking something like 4x 3 gallon smart pots)
- - Also, What strain would be ideal? (I'm assuming some type of indica or hybrid)


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 5, 2012)

AS is out of Red Suns and Fiji's rite now, 54w.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> ... this is the most expensive hobby. except for maybe off roading


 .. and maybe amature diamond mining, otherwise yeah, this shit can get expensive. Im growing my way into the poorhouse, but its fun


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 6, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Heh, no comment eh? You like to go around telling people they are wrong and then not correcting yourself? Seems to me everyone is doing the actual testing of these bulbs for you. I've spent over $800 on T5 bulbs and have found the only real results to be with the ProColors or PINK plant bulbs. If you have results to show, why don't you show them? I haven't seen any photos from you and yet you are the one that started this thread. Is this just some idea that you had that you wanted others to test for you? I'm not getting it so far. People, stick with HPS and MH. Plants don't like low intensity lights, save your money!


Ill get to you in a minute..

Second ya im a human being.. I have made mistakes and am willing to admit when im wrong or just move on from an argument when im obviously wrong, serves no one any good to argue IN the forum. I obviously have a lot riding on this thread and have always defended my project with my everlasting breath, but wouldent you defend something you believed in and work hard @, do you know no pride? I take my arguments to PM unless someone has really come off as either an idiot or a bully, and you my friend are leaning to the latter. I have used fact and method to show yourself and others the "path" i cannot hold your hand or show you EVERY thing that is perfect and wrap it with a bow... Some things in life you must do yourself. 

You have a total of 55 posts here @ RIU.
you say you have spent 800$ on bulbs good for you hope you feel happy about that.
In your 55 posts it is inconceivable that you could have posted clean documented Grow/Results comparable to ANYONE on this forum let alone MY thread. You have absolutely 0 to show for your work product, and storm in here like you own MY thread.
So you've been in my thread badmouthing bullying and claiming things that i and others say here are wrong when CLEARLY we as a collective have experience and knowledge in this subject that you cannot possible know. 
So what i want to know is what makes YOU the expert here? 
Youve tested ALL the bulbs and Combinations? really? Show your results? where are all your grows and strain comparisons? where are your pictures of growth throughout the lifecycle of the plant? 
My plants were 3' tall and beautiful and i have pictures of them posted in THIS forum. Matter of fact i have posted well over 200 of my own photos throughout RIU. I have documented and given factual analysis and documented proof of my method/technique and the science to back me up. i use as many factual studies and "try" to take the word of people who have been doing something for a large majority of their own lives.. If someone invests a major portion of their life to something they SHOULD be pretty good at it. I have also posted REAL journal published University studies that back my own method.
I am sorry you are having bad results... maybe its because you chose to use the 2' lights, maybe the wrong combination? maybe the wrong strain.....
Seems to me EVERYONE else is having better results than you? and you have once to say you have copied MY method. I have laid out my decision process and the reasons imade my decisions... thats right MY decisions, you are free to make your own and my word is not law around here. Just a pretty good damn suggestion.
And while you think you can throw crap assumptions and BS "testing" around like a flag of honor shows your immaturity here.
I have and never will claim that this method will give you ANY YIELD @ ALL... i can almost guarantee in writing, if done right and with MY method and your knowhow you WILL get BETTER product.
Start with a turd.....you ain't getting shit.

And last for your viewing pleasure i have a REAL job where iI travel and do things with my life besides livinng in my moms basement with a bong clutched tightly between my hands watching reruns of cartoons and smelling like B.O and bongwater.

I took $ from my pocket and time out of my life with no greater intent than to fail @ something, miserably.(also written/posted here Frequently)
and for 432W of pure purple enjoyment i grew a crop that not only surpassed my wildest expectations, i had fun learned a few things and enlightened others on a new technique they probably never would have tried with Tech thats efficient relatively cheap and easily affordable to anyone. If you cant see past your on inability to make this method for you well we thank you for your contribution, but maybe you should take your HID and go play with the others.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 6, 2012)

Indicanna Jones said:


> hi *pr0fesseur* im currently in the 4th week of flower under 3 3000k, 1 6500k 2' t5's & 2 26 watt 2700 cfls for side lighting. i am wondering what would be the best combination of the t5's i have & actinic t5's. thanks in advance for any advice.


I think you'd be best off with the 1xRed sun and dare i say one fiji/454 
sorry fo rthe late response I do not get a chance to read all the posts every day.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 6, 2012)

Calrt said:


> Day 26 Time for a little update.
> They are all coming along nicely but the HPS plants are much larger. The T5s are a little more smelly though, but about 50% the size. Here are some pics for size comparison.
> 
> I am thinking about putting a Flora Sun or two to get into the 660nm range and add some green. I would pull the 454 at that point and maybe a red sun. Any thoughts?
> ...


600W/480W keep the pics coming i want to see a good comparison in both quality and quantity, keep up the good work.

side note anyone going to run a 16 bulb badboy?


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 6, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> So im gonna start a grow next week and have 4 8 bulb Badboys free to grow under and all the right bulbs. Realistically how would be the most efficient way to setup and how many plants would you attempt to grow under a 32 bulb setup? I was WANTING to do 5 per fixture but think that might be too much and was thinking 3 might be most beneficial.
> 
> Thoughts?


Personally i would do a 3 plant grow per fixture and supercrop them... I am still a fan of supercropping and letting these lights get nice and close and get as much light on the plants and not on the walls and floor...


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## PetFlora (Jan 6, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> I firmly beleive that these aquarium bulbs should be used as supplement to 6500k lights or HID. I think they would prove as a great addition much like LED. Bring on the photos of good, healthy vigorous growth people!


I posted ~5 pics of growth stage that was staggeringly fast, but I did not employ any actinic blues, or fiji. I failed during mid flower when I was pushing ppms to 1300, which was fine, BUT... That combined with 6 ft tall plant with huge primary leafs sucking the water out of the nutes, left me with 1900+ ppms which was being cycled every 45 minutes over some 12 hours, which cooked the plant from the inside. Bottom line: *Pilot Error. 

*This combination was working damned well: 2 Red Suns+ 2 Coral Waves + 2 Aquablue Specials + on the outside 2 Quantum Grow bulbs (only because the only other bulb I had was Quantum Flower.


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## PetFlora (Jan 6, 2012)

*FYI:* My ~ 5 yo Hanna HI 98127(pH/temp meter) will not calibrate. I contacted Hanna and was told that probes last ~ 1 year. Cost of probe ~ $55. I also needed batteries. Between the 2, it was ~ the same as buying a new one. There's a place in Atlanta that comes up when you google Hanna. It is $74.99 + free shipping.


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## Indicanna Jones (Jan 6, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I think you'd be best off with the 1xRed sun and dare i say one fiji/454
> sorry fo rthe late response I do not get a chance to read all the posts every day.


Thanks loads pr0fesseur. So 1x454nm & 1x633nm in addition to the 3000k & 6500k t5's im currently flowering with......correct?


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Ill get to you in a minute..
> 
> Second ya im a human being.. I have made mistakes and am willing to admit when im wrong or just move on from an argument when im obviously wrong, serves no one any good to argue IN the forum. I obviously have a lot riding on this thread and have always defended my project with my everlasting breath, but wouldent you defend something you believed in and work hard @, do you know no pride? I take my arguments to PM unless someone has really come off as either an idiot or a bully, and you my friend are leaning to the latter. I have used fact and method to show yourself and others the "path" i cannot hold your hand or show you EVERY thing that is perfect and wrap it with a bow... Some things in life you must do yourself.
> 
> ...


WOW, all with name calling and everything! Apparently you haven't read any of my posts. Pretty sad considering this is "your" thread. Do you always throw temper tantrums when someone calls you out on one little statement? As far as maturity level goes, I'm pretty sure you just proved to everyone here that you lack that quality.

As far as YOU go, I've asked you questions that you never answered. I've done my best to try and help out with this aquarium bulb T5 idea, and no you are not the first one to come up with this idea. It has been around for ages, and I'm sure if the idea actually worked well, it would have been known by now. These bulbs are meant for aquariums, made for aquariums, and until they make bulbs FOR growing a garden it will stay that way. Sure, some people might get some decent results with these bulbs, but I wouldn't go prancing around like you have discovered something that everyone should praise you for. Last but not least, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a flamer like you. I won't even consider speaking with someone that resorts to name calling, I just won't stoop that low. BTW, who ever said I had poor results? All I ACTUALLY STATED was that the "BLUE" type of aquarium lights seemed to stunt growth and I also left a photo to show what I was talking about. I got one response from someone saying, "looks fine to me," when it obviously was not fine. I also stated quite a few times that I had excellent results with the PINK colored lights, no matter what brand they are. You responded to my statement only by stating the bulbs are "RED" not pink, and then not even responding to the fact that I had good results with them. Seems to me like all you want to do is argue your "point," no matter what it may be. If you feel like someone is wrong, all you do is call them on it and not even respond to anything else they say. I wouldn't be surprised if you do live in someone's basement or whatever you were talking about earlier. So I leave you with "your" thread! Great, you've earned it, or something? Anyway, have fun with your little fake idea, you're sure got everyone believing that you know your stuff! HA HA


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

BTW Calrt's garden is lookin the finest so far. He vegged under a 600w MH.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

Also, I want to add some interesting info I got from doing some research that may help ease some of your minds on this whole RED 660nm issue and not being able to get the "procolors" anymore:

"You can use 630nm rather than 660nm and it works no problem. Actually it works better because currently 630nm are available on more efficient chips than the 660s. Once we get our hands on the new high efficiency 660s we will experiment to find the most efficient ratio of 630s:660s.

As far as blue/red ratio, it very much affects stretch. So we use more blue during veg and also the first few weeks of flowering if you are trying to control a sativa dom. Red photons are more efficient at driving photosynthesis and they require significantly less power from the emitters per photon so it is beneficial to use as much red as you can get away with while still controlling stretch.

White light can help some strains ripen on time. White LEDs also have a convenient blue peak at 440-450nm. As an earlier poster mentioned, plants use photons from all the visible wavelengths for photosynthesis, including green. I expect that the small amount of these wavelengths contributed by the white LED is used very efficiently.

Plants may go through some period of adjustment when they are suddenly presented with a light of very different wavelengths. Therefore it may be useful to provide some white even during vegging. Since the white LED provides quite a nice peak of blue, it seems possible that a simple combination of white and red could be very effective. Another bonus would be a more even spread of wavelengths reaching each leaf."
SupraSPL

This is my reasoning behind using the 6500K T5 "white" bulbs mixed with procolors OR florasuns OR floramax OR plantgrow OR redsun. There is already MORE than enough BLUE in the 6500k bulbs. This is the point I've been trying to get at for awhile now. Plants use RED light waaayyyy more than blue. Blue light keeps plants from stretching more. Therefore, I have come up with a mixture of T5 lighting that should work appropriately for veggin. Pink(procolor, floramax, florasun, plantgrow etc.) x 4, 6500K x 4. THIS MIXTURE PRODUCED UNBELIEVABLE RESULTS AS I HAVE POSTED EARLIER. The only problem is the stretch that occured. So the mixture needs a bit more blue. Therefore, swapping out one of the 6500K bulbs for a blue plus(or equilvalent) should produce better results. Testing now, will post results in 10 days, as stated earlier. As far as flowering goes, I believe it would be safe to assume that all a person would need to get HUGE results would be half 6500K and half PINK(procolor, florasun, floramax, plant grow etc.) And, I wouldn't worry that much about whether the NM is 630nm, 647nm, 652nm or 660nm. I highly doubt plants are sitting there saying "gee where is my 660nm light? All I am receiving is 659nm and I can't grow." After all plants are NOT computers requiring an exact wavelength. If you actually think about it, plants don't need a specific wavelength at all, they need the appropriate balance for the desired outcome. Remember, numbers, math, computers, are all inventions of man, plants learned how to exist looooooong before humans came up with the idea of putting a label to the "type" of light plants require.


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## tehshyt (Jan 6, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Last but not least, I'm not going to waste my time arguing with a _*flamer*_ like you. I won't even consider speaking with someone that resorts to name calling, I just won't stoop that low.


I'll just leave this here.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I am sorry you are having bad results... maybe its because you chose to use the 2' lights, maybe the wrong combination?


Really? Are you sure? The only difference between a 2' T5 bulb and a 4' T5 bulb is the area they will cover. As far as light intensity and wavelength, they are identical. Seems like you would know this best out of anyone. As far as combination goes, I've stated my bulb configuration every time, so if you've ACTUALLY BEEN READING my posts, you would have known by now.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> I'll just leave this here.


Haha, yeah.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

*>Why is the 660nm wavelength so important for flowering plants?
* 
 Lab tests have shown that chlorophyll absorption peaks at deep red 660nm, so many grow lights use a lot of this wavelength. Plants need the whole red spectrum, but too much deep red causes the plants to stretch.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

I really don't think the KZ Fiji Purple bulbs are necessary. I am getting excellent results now with cheapo 6500K bulbs mixed with, Pink Procolor(floramax, florasun etc.) 50% 6500K and 50% PINK, and ONLY 1 ATI blue bulb for vegging. I would switch the ATI blue bulb out for another pink bulb for flowering as the 6500K bulbs have enough blue in them already. I don't see why everyone is acting like the KZ bulb is so amazing. The company isn't willing to present the spectral analysis, AND they are extremely expensive. I've had very similar results using the red sun bulbs in place of ANY of the red/pink colored bulbs. I would put the redsun bulbs in the same category as the procolor, floramax, florasun, plant grow, aqua-glo, etc. etc. I have been using verilux flouros which are also pink in color for the last 10 years for vegging. I haven't seen any T5 verilux's in the USA yet but the T12's have been doing fine for vegging with quality. BTW the procolors and all other pink bulbs have peak wavelengths in the blue region already, so NOT MUCH more blue is necessary.


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## overTHEman (Jan 6, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> I really don't think the KZ Fiji Purple bulbs are necessary. I am getting excellent results now with cheapo 6500K bulbs mixed with, Pink Procolor(floramax, florasun etc.) 50% 6500K and 50% PINK, and ONLY 1 ATI blue bulb for vegging. I would switch the ATI blue bulb out for another pink bulb for flowering as the 6500K bulbs have enough blue in them already. I don't see why everyone is acting like the KZ bulb is so amazing. The company isn't willing to present the spectral analysis, AND they are extremely expensive.


You've gotten everyone's attention plenty of times on this thread. If you don't like the way people are responding to your posts, change the content of what you write or perhaps use different words. We all know that you don't like the Fiji and your favorite is the 6,500k.

I used the 6,500k bulbs during veg and was pleased with the growth I saw. After reading this thread I realized I did not fully understand the implications of "6,500k" or "2,900k", so I looked into the way light is measured. A month later, I purchased the recommended PAR bulbs and witnessed much improvement in my plant's growth. Since then, I have shown this community, including you, my results. Many others have done the same.

So far, telling us hasn't worked. If you like the 6,500k - explain your thesis and plan. Carry out that plan and show us what happens. If no one believes you, show us again. 

It took the pr0fesseur six months to show us twice.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 6, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Seems to me like all you want to do is argue your "point," no matter what it may be... So I leave you with "your" thread! Great, you've earned it, or something? Anyway, have fun with your little fake idea, you're sure got everyone believing that you know your stuff! HA HA


yet you still continue to argue taking up another page trying to prove points that we're already familiar with, we all know the 6500 bulbs have blue and red in them, they use triband phosphors, we know you need a balanced distribution which is why we have to explain to noobs not to use ALL aquarium bulbs and that it is all about providing a balanced spread for the plants. You like the pink bulbs, we all hear you and some undoubetly will go out and get some pink bulbs and will grow amazing plants with them (Ive been looking at a few myself) Thank you for your contribution... now please chill with it. Present your findings from switching and be happy with the growth you're getting. You said you were leaving, Im not holding you to that but if you do stick around, please chill with the rhetoric, you aint running for office here.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 6, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Seems to me like all you want to do is argue your "point," no matter what it may be... So I leave you with "your" thread! Great, you've earned it, or something? Anyway, have fun with your little fake idea, you're sure got everyone believing that you know your stuff! HA HA


yet you still continue to argue taking up *another* page trying to prove points that we're already familiar with, we all know the 6500 bulbs have blue and red in them, they use triband phosphors, we know you need a balanced distribution which is why we have to explain to noobs not to use ALL aquarium bulbs and that it is all about providing a balanced spread for the plants. You like the pink bulbs, we all hear you and some undoubetly will go out and get some pink bulbs and will grow amazing plants with them (Ive been looking at a few myself) Thank you for your contribution... now please chill with it. Present your findings from switching and be happy with the growth you're getting. You said you were leaving, Im not holding you to that but if you do stick around, please chill with the rhetoric, you aint running for office here.


*** note okthanks2 deleted about 8 rather negative posts between these two, which is why I repeated my post.


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## organicbynature (Jan 6, 2012)

Peace?

I think if there is value to be taken out of this argument it is in the comparison between a set of bulbs focused around 6500ks and "pink" bulbs vs a more traditional (for this thread) mix of bulbs. Personally, I'd be interested to see that comparison if anyone is moved to do it and post pictures.

Beyond that, it's kind of a bummer when this thread gets all heated. That's not what we're here for. I'm sorry if I've upset anyone at some point in this thread and my vote is we all chill out and get back to enjoying life and this excellent plant and the sharing and experimentation that is this thread at its best.

And if that doesn't work for you, try some of this skunk kush because it totally worked for me.


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## Redoctober (Jan 6, 2012)

Well I put a couple of vegging plants under 4 lamps (Flora Sun--Coral Sun--Flora Sun--UVL Super Actinic) about a week ago, and growth has pretty much stalled out. 
Any ideas as to why? 
Too much Blue?
What should I switch to to get that explosive veg growth with super tight nodes that I've seen so many pics of?
hyroot, I'm thinking of duplicating your setup.


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## hyroot (Jan 6, 2012)

Redoctober said:


> Well I put a couple of vegging plants under 4 lamps (Flora Sun--Coral Sun--Flora Sun--UVL Super Actinic) about a week ago, and growth has pretty much stalled out.
> Any ideas as to why?
> Too much Blue?
> What should I switch to to get that explosive veg growth with super tight nodes that I've seen so many pics of?
> hyroot, I'm thinking of duplicating your setup.


No amount of any spectrum should cause them to stall. You might have nute lock....


===================================================================================



Okthanks. You constantly put everyone down and say you are not going to argue. You make all sorts of implications then deny ever saying anything. You obviously havent run all the light you say. Because some of what you say is ass backwards. You keep talking about this one pic that is not on this thread. you say you have bad results here in there and state why and then you say you never said you had bad results. You are a walking contradiction. Make up your damn mind. You definitely have a kanye complex and yet have not produced any proof of your so called findings. Scientist have to show documented proof before they can publish findings. If not its just theory. Im sure your going to attack me after this since you cant seem to be civil at all. Ever admit when your wrong. You keep. Calling everone a teenager. I bet you just turned 20. Tht still makes you a youngin. Reading all your posts is like watching a soap opera. Geez. Get over yourself and your ego. 

again ive posted good results despite other setbacks. Ive posted even better results. Try using the original bulb selection thats recommended. I did and it worked.great. Also there is definitely a difference between 2 ft and 4 ft. For.one 4ft has 2.5 times more lumens. 2 inches at each end of the bulb does not put out light. So you lose 4 inches on each bulb. Thats a big difference. 

Everything prof said about you. Did you forget that you attacked him and this concept.way before all of this. Yesterday you made a post talking so much shit and how bad your results were..... then deny ever having bad results and still say these bulbs dont work. That does not make any sense. Maybe its just you....


You praise the 6500k.so much that its implied thats it your favorite. Thatw why everyone said that. It hard keeping track of bullshit.....


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## hyroot (Jan 6, 2012)

i emailed coralife about spectrum charts and they just got back to me so here they are


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 6, 2012)

Redoctober said:


> What should I switch to to get that explosive veg growth with super tight nodes that I've seen so many pics of?






just my 2 cents


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

hyroot said:


> blah blah blah


 RedOctober, the reason growth has stopped is because these bulbs do not work for some strains. Seems as though some strains prefer the RED over any blue at all. Try the 2 Flora Suns and 2 6500K for a week and see what happens, I'm sure you will be shitless with surprise.
red causes stretching, blue causes tight internodes


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

hyroot said:


> i emailed coralife about spectrum charts and they just got back to me so here they are
> 
> 
> View attachment 1978567View attachment 1978568View attachment 1978569View attachment 1978570


These bulbs suck, had 2 burn out already after 1 week


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## overTHEman (Jan 6, 2012)

Yeah man, stoke that fire.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 6, 2012)

For those of you that are doing grow comparisons with these T5 bulbs right next to a HPS light, that isn't going to show how the T5's are stand alone vs HPS. If you actually want to do a valid comparison, you have to keep the T5 lights far away from any other light source. And, no I'm not 20, I actually just turned 110. I'm going to post this again, since it seems you have failed once again to understand. Not all plants respond to light in the same way. Even different strains of the same type of plant DO NOT always respond the same way. When I first started out with all 6500K bulbs, nothing grew at all. When switched to colored T5's only, nothing grew. When I switched to 50% 6500K and 50% Flora Suns, explosive growth followed. Soil, nutes, water, ph, time started were all the same for each trial. Try that and see what happens. The Flora Suns are a 5000K bulb which means they have more red in them. They still have the same amout of blue as regular 6500K bulbs do however. The only difference between 6500K bulbs and the FloraSuns, ProColors, FloraMax, Plant Grow bulbs is that the 6500K bulbs do not have the deep red added. The wavepoint bulbs are very similar in that they are all 6500K bulbs with either more red or more blue phosphors added to them. Not all 6500K bulbs are created equally. The best ones I've found are the Zoo Med Ultra Suns. They are very bright and have a real nice clear appearance. Another good bulb combo I've tried is 50% Zoo med Ocean Sun and 50% Flora Sun. It won't grow plants fast, but it does work. Add a couple 6500K bulbs to that mix and the plants will grow faster. The whole point in adding the 6500K bulbs is to add more blue without screwing up the balance of wavelength and to prevent stretch. If you only use the Flora Suns, the plants will stretch like crazy. Also, the colored bulbs do not put out many lumens, so by adding 6500K bulbs you will add about 4x the lumens and provide more energy for the plants to grow. Proper wavelengths + lumens = quality grow. If you want to see my journals that I've done over the last 4 years, you can find them on gardenscure.com, but it won't be of much interest to most of you on this thread because they are mostly HID grows not with aquarium bulb, I do have one where I used HID MH with LED supplement in the 660nm + 420nm and it is some amazing amazing shit people. Just search HID MH with LED supplemeeei zoif djlfle


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## organicbynature (Jan 6, 2012)

I wonder if any of the divergent results that are being reported have to do with light height.

The type of combination that okthanks 2 is talking about has bulbs with more complete spectrums, as opposed to the aquarium mixes that have some narrow spectrum bulbs. I believe we've concluded that with the aquarium bulbs its better to keep the lights a bit higher than usual to allow the spectrums to blend. Putting narrow-spectrum bulbs close to the canopy should result in poor growth. Similar issues have come up in the LED community in terms of distance to canopy and spectrum mixing. Putting your LEDs too close doesn't work well.

How high off the canopy have you been putting your lights okthanks2 and RedOctober?

Anybody thinks this might be a factor in what we're hearing lately?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 6, 2012)

organicbynature said:


> Anybody thinks this might be a factor in what we're hearing lately?


That wasn't the case for me. I kept the bulbs as close as possible >2" off the canopy.


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## hyroot (Jan 6, 2012)

organicbynature said:


> I wonder if any of the divergent results that are being reported have to do with light height.
> 
> The type of combination that okthanks 2 is talking about has bulbs with more complete spectrums, as opposed to the aquarium mixes that have some narrow spectrum bulbs. I believe we've concluded that with the aquarium bulbs its better to keep the lights a bit higher than usual to allow the spectrums to blend. Putting narrow-spectrum bulbs close to the canopy should result in poor growth. Similar issues have come up in the LED community in terms of distance to canopy and spectrum mixing. Putting your LEDs too close doesn't work well.
> 
> ...


Possibly, I've always have mine 12 inches away for the purpose of spectrum blend. I have not had any issues.

Nute lock can stop growth.

nute lock symptoms - purple stalk, curling leaves, zero growth.

Fimming will slow growth a lot , but for only a week.

High temps and humidity can slow growth to a crawl or even stop growth completely. 

High temp symptoms - edges of leaves will flare up then leaves will eventually curl upward and brown and turn crispy.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 6, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> That wasn't the case for me. I kept the bulbs as close as possible >2" off the canopy.


Ditto thru veg...


Damn, UCDWC, is that a 16bulb fixture?! huge footprint! I havent seen anyone with one yet!


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

organicbynature said:


> I wonder if any of the divergent results that are being reported have to do with light height.
> 
> The type of combination that okthanks 2 is talking about has bulbs with more complete spectrums, as opposed to the aquarium mixes that have some narrow spectrum bulbs. I believe we've concluded that with the aquarium bulbs its better to keep the lights a bit higher than usual to allow the spectrums to blend. Putting narrow-spectrum bulbs close to the canopy should result in poor growth. Similar issues have come up in the LED community in terms of distance to canopy and spectrum mixing. Putting your LEDs too close doesn't work well.
> 
> ...


Been keeping the lights 14" from the canopy. 

NOTICE: READ HERE: NOTICE: READ HERE: NOTICE: READ HERE: So if you miss this post it is not my problem anymore! LMFAO

NEXT:

Just checked in after running the comparison between T5 combinations after 2 days. (as a reminder to those that don't read good: LOL

In room #1. 8 bulb fixture with 4 of the 6500K $2 bulbs, 2 Redsuns, 2 ATI Procolor.

In room #2. 8 bulb fixture with 4 of the ATI procolor, 2 Redsuns, 1 ATI blue plus, 1 UVL Super actinic. AND NO 6500K BULBS! YAY!

BOTH ROOMS ARE ON 24 HOUR LIGHT CYCLE. TEMP 75 F, RH 50%

Room #1 is growing like crazy compared to room #2. Height from canopy is the same. Same everything else. Gonna give it another 8 days as promised and report back (with photos for those of you that don't know how to use the search feature.) Room #2 is still having stunted growth issues after round 3 of this same trial. I'm seeing some new growth so I would say that it is safe to give it more time and see if there is a change. Compared to room #1, however, it has it beat like a rusty bent nail.
HYPOTHESIS:
This test will show that the addition of 6500K bulbs will have extremely better results than the addition of the blue plus and super actinic bulbs. It will also show that adding to full spectrum lighting aka(5500K to 6700K) the UVL Red Sun or ATI ProColor or Zoo Med Flora Sun, or Aqueon Flora Max, or Aquamedic Plant Grow, etc. is the best choice for super growth.

NOTE:
For all the people in here that have been bad mouthing me for using 6500K bulbs, when you finally see that the $2 bulbs work better than the $17 dollar blue or actinic bulbs, are you still going to be bad mouthing me? Or maybe Hyroot will try to convince me that I have a nutrient problem/temp problem/whatever else, keeping in mind that everything is EXACTLY THE SAME IN BOTH ROOMS OTHER THAN THE LIGHT. I really STILL don't get it. I'm trying to find a cheaper way to do this by getting rid of useless bulbs and keeping the ones that actually are doing the job and still use the RED specific bulbs. Taking 1 useless bulb out and replacing it with 1 cheapo bulb would save some cash in the long run right? Ultimately we all want fast, vigorous healthy growth with a high yield and low heat/energy consumption right? Or do the people that have a problem with the 6500K bulbs only want to use expensive pretty color bulbs in their grow and not worry about anything else? God forbid that a 6500K bulb is in the mix, since they pretty much represent the same color of the sun on a cloudy day. Hey, I really like the color of the light that the Blue Plus, Fiji Purple, Super Actinic puts out, but if they aren't doing anything useful, then why have them in there? Why waste the money? Why put more mercury in the landfill?

THESE ARE THE BULBS THAT I AM REFERRING TO AS "AQUARIUM BULBS." THEY ARE BULBS THAT ARE MEANT TO GO INTO AQUARIUMS TO POP COLORS AND MAKE THE FISH AND CORALS LOOK PRETTY. THEY REALLY HAVE LITTLE OTHER FUNCTION. I AM LISTING THE BULBS SO THERE IS NO MORE CONFUSION AND SO THAT NO ONE CAN ACCUSE ME OF CONTRADICTING MYSELF ANYMORE(hyroot). THE BULBS ARE AS FOLLOWS: UVL SUPER ACTINIC, UVL 454, ATI BLUE PLUS, UVL 75/25, KZ FIJI PURPLE. PRETTY MUCH ANY BULB THAT IS ACTINIC/BLUE ONLY. 

The last trial run that failed was a mix of 4 Fiji Purple, 2 Redsun, 1 UVL 75/25, 1 Blue Plus. Growth came to a hault leaving the plant real weird looking while the plants with the same nutrient regimen under the "other lights" blasted off into outer space.

PEOPLE, I purchased these bulbs to do some experimenting and contribute. I'm doing EXACTLY that. When I say "don't waste your money on useless bulbs," I'm trying to warn people of useless bulbs so they do not waste money and they end up dumping a bunch of wasted mercury into the landfill for no reason. For some reason a few of you, (don't even care to mention, you know who you are) act like I'm complaining about spending $800 on light sticks when really I'm trying to explain that I OWN A SHIT TON OF EXPENSIVE ASS AQUARIUM LIGHTS TO EXPERIMENT WITH. If you choose not to believe me or choose to discredit my results, there is nothing I can do or say to help you. This information is not intended for you, it is intended for the people who want to buy the right lights for the job. I have been a gardener for 40+ years, I know my shit. I have been growing all kinds of fruits and veggies and medicines under all kinds of lighting for the majority of those 40 years. Just because I haven't posted on THIS forum, or don't have 1,000,000 posts doesn't make inexperienced at what I do. I really can't stand morons who base a persons knowledge and status on how many posts you make. Also, I could really CARE LESS about WHO started this thread, or who has the most posts, or who posts the most photos, all that shit REALLY makes little difference. What matters is the accuracy of information, the willingness to contribute, and still have the least amount possible of disruptions from adolescent behavior. Speaking of which, I am sure following this post there will still be those who only read the last line of people's posts, automatically assuming they know what the whole post is about and post some moronic judgemental b.s. about how "I don't have enough posts, your humidity is high, your nutes are low, blah blah blah. Does anyone realize that there are about 1,000,000 other people that read these forums without even owning an account? Think about those people right? They are as important as everyone here and the validity of the information is important. So when I say, RED LIGHT CAUSES STRETCHING, do your research before jumping all over me telling me I'm wrong and calling me names and shit like that. It really isn't necessary.


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## hyroot (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Been keeping the lights 14" from the canopy. NOTICE: READ HERE: NOTICE: READ HERE: NOTICE: READ HERE: So if you miss this post it is not my problem anymore! LMFAONEXT:Just checked in after running the comparison between T5 combinations after 2 days. (as a reminder to those that don't read good: LOLIn room #1. 8 bulb fixture with 4 of the 6500K $2 bulbs, 2 Redsuns, 2 ATI Procolor.In room #2. 8 bulb fixture with 4 of the ATI procolor, 2 Redsuns, 1 ATI blue plus, 1 UVL Super actinic. AND NO 6500K BULBS! YAY!BOTH ROOMS ARE ON 24 HOUR LIGHT CYCLE. TEMP 75 F, RH 50%Room #1 is growing like crazy compared to room #2. Height from canopy is the same. Same everything else. Gonna give it another 8 days as promised and report back (with photos for those of you that don't know how to use the search feature.) Room #2 is still having stunted growth issues after round 3 of this same trial. I'm seeing some new growth so I would say that it is safe to give it more time and see if there is a change. Compared to room #1, however, it has it beat like a rusty bent nail.HYPOTHESIS:This test will show that the addition of 6500K bulbs will have better results than the addition of the blue plus and super actinic bulbs.NOTE:For all the people in here that have been bad mouthing me for using 6500K bulbs, when you finally see that the $2 bulbs work better than the $17 dollar blue or actinic bulbs, are you still going to be bad mouthing me? I really STILL don't get it. I'm trying to find a cheaper way to do this by getting rid of useless bulbs and keeping the ones that actually are doing the job and still use the RED specific bulbs. Ultimately we all want fast, vigorous healthy growth with a high yield and low heat/energy consumption right? Or do the people that have a problem with the 6500K bulbs only want to use expensive pretty color bulbs in their grow and not worry about anything else? God forbid that a 6500K bulb is in the mix, since they pretty much represent the same color of the sun on a cloudy day.



24 hour lighting screws up the photo period if they dont get any dark.

You must be dillusional. No one has bad mouthed you for using 6500k. A bunch of people on here use them. The only badmouthing towards you was in rebutall to your shit talking to everyone else. Quit trying to start an argument.

WHAT AN EGO ON THIS GUY.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

exactly, no one has a prob with any bulb you use, and we appreciate your input and experience. Its the defensive/aggressive attitude. like I said along time ago when you called me a fucking teenager (I notice you deleted a bunch of posts where you were slinging insults around) Just chill ok, dont be defensive. everyone is welcome. It all started when you jumped in and told everyone to stick with HID cuz plants dont like low intensity light, on a thread where alot have used HID and are looking for an alternative for whatever reasons. Thats why some became defensive towards your attack on T5's (this is where we've been calling home for awhile now). Lets all reset and proceed with the presentation of ideas, peacefully


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## Redoctober (Jan 7, 2012)

organicbynature said:


> I wonder if any of the divergent results that are being reported have to do with light height. The type of combination that okthanks 2 is talking about has bulbs with more complete spectrums, as opposed to the aquarium mixes that have some narrow spectrum bulbs. I believe we've concluded that with the aquarium bulbs its better to keep the lights a bit higher than usual to allow the spectrums to blend. Putting narrow-spectrum bulbs close to the canopy should result in poor growth. Similar issues have come up in the LED community in terms of distance to canopy and spectrum mixing. Putting your LEDs too close doesn't work well. How high off the canopy have you been putting your lights okthanks2 and RedOctober? Anybody thinks this might be a factor in what we're hearing lately?


 Mine have been fairly close ~2-4 inches or so. I swapped out the Super Actinic for a Flora Sun. So now I have 3 Flora Suns and 1 Coral Sun. I was getting that twisted/deformed leaf phenomenon which could be from the lights being too close or it could be a nutrient issue. The water temps have gotten rather high into the 70's which may be causing some nutrient deficiencies and slowing growth as well. The T5 does raise the temps in the room into the 80's and I don't have any real good way of cooling it, so the plants sometimes have to negotiate high rez temps.


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## Buzzo (Jan 7, 2012)

hyroot said:


> 24 hour lighting screws up the photo period if they dont get any dark.


I do believe this is a false statement. Got any evidence or research to back this up? Not trying to be a smart ass or anything, just genuinely interested.


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## Redoctober (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> RedOctober, the reason growth has stopped is because these bulbs do not work for some strains. Seems as though some strains prefer the RED over any blue at all. Try the 2 Flora Suns and 2 6500K for a week and see what happens, I'm sure you will be shitless with surprise. red causes stretching, blue causes tight internodes


 Do they sell those 6500K's @ Petco or Home Depot? Or would I have to order them online?
Do they have to be Spectralux? Because think Home Depot has some 6500K T5's (could be 5000K though), but I have no idea what the brand is or the spectrum. I would assume that like every other bulb, not all 6500's are created equal.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Deleted posts? What? Dick turd #2. Enough with the lies. Please don't respond to anymore of my posts. You pretty much only come in at the end of someone else's insult to add more insults. That is very adolescent behavior. I really don't care how old you are, but please do not talk to me or about me anymore. Anyone else have any other crap to say? Keep it to yourself.


Yes, between posts 2009 and 2010 you posted about 8 times where you insulted myself, prof and hyroot mixed with other generally negative comments. This is why in post 2013 Hyroot comments on you calling others teenagers... and you continue still, calling others dickturds and liars when everyone else knows otherwise... can we please stop


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

Redoctober said:


> Do they sell those 6500K's @ Petco or Home Depot? Or would I have to order them online?
> Do they have to be Spectralux? Because think Home Depot has some 6500K T5's (could be 5000K though), but I have no idea what the brand is or the spectrum. I would assume that like every other bulb, not all 6500's are created equal.


I've tried about 5 different types of daylight bulbs. They are all pretty close in comparison as far as color goes, but some lack lifespan. So far I've found the Zoo Med Ultra Suns to do a fairly good job but they are quite spendy(about $11). The spectralux's are what came in my Sunblaze and they have worked extremely well for the past year. It is about time to switch them out for new ones though. I am also pretty sure that home depot's T5's are NOT high output. Maybe it's different at the store near you, but here at least they are only normal output T5's. I have done some researching for some other cheaper resources for 6500K bulbs and have found a brand called Plusrite. They are about $2 a bulb if you get them in quantity. I have read reviews that they are pretty descent but haven't tried them yet. Any 6500K will do as long as it doesn't shit out on you early. Keep in mind here that the bulbs that are REALLY doing the most are the PINK bulbs. (FloraSuns, plant grow, floramax, gro-lux, plant and aquarium, procolor, aqua-glo etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if that is all you need for a good harvest. But the only reason I add the 6500K is for vegging for the added blue and green. To try and keep the plants shorter.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> That wasn't the case for me. I kept the bulbs as close as possible >2" off the canopy.


I know I've already asked you, but what bulbs are you using for veg and how many of each? Also, what type of strain are you running? What nutes? Everything is still looking awesome as before. I'm sure if I was still running the NL strain I wouldn't be having any problem whatsoever, since that strain will grow anywhere. The last strains I've been working with are BB and OG and they have been proven to be REAL biatches. I have NEVER seen a plant that refuses to grow under 6500K lights alone. The OG has been about 4 times harder to grow than the BB, but it is sooooo worth every minute. I have read that a lot of people don't have much luck with the OG and only get small flowers (although high quality). I'm actually starting to understand the OG now and get what it wants. Pretty much you can NEVER say NO to OG or you will be ignored for a long time. LOVES being foliar fed, LOVES the Mg, LOVES the RED light, HATES being dry, HATES eating more than necessary, absolutely LOVES the 24 hour light cycle and HATES excessive blue light(seems strange but this strain would NOT grow under a hortilux blue 400w MH no matter how much I begged it to and no matter how little or much it ate!).


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## Redoctober (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> I've tried about 5 different types of daylight bulbs. They are all pretty close in comparison as far as color goes, but some lack lifespan. So far I've found the Zoo Med Ultra Suns to do a fairly good job but they are quite spendy(about $11). The spectralux's are what came in my Sunblaze and they have worked extremely well for the past year. It is about time to switch them out for new ones though. I am also pretty sure that home depot's T5's are NOT high output. Maybe it's different at the store near you, but here at least they are only normal output T5's. I have done some researching for some other cheaper resources for 6500K bulbs and have found a brand called Plusrite. They are about $2 a bulb if you get them in quantity. I have read reviews that they are pretty descent but haven't tried them yet. Any 6500K will do as long as it doesn't shit out on you early. Keep in mind here that the bulbs that are REALLY doing the most are the PINK bulbs. (FloraSuns, plant grow, floramax, gro-lux, plant and aquarium, procolor, aqua-glo etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if that is all you need for a good harvest. But the only reason I add the 6500K is for vegging for the added blue and green. To try and keep the plants shorter.


 You're absolutely right, the Home Depot ones aren't HO; I didn't even think about that. I was hoping that I could at least order them from an aquarium store if not buy em locally. I won't order anything from a grow store personally. I could get the Ultra Suns @ Petco though if they are the same as the 6500's. I'm just looking at the two graphs of the Ultra Sun and the spectralux and they look fairly similar. Also you had posted the graph for the GE 6500K on page 145 which looks basically the same as the Ultra Sun. So I guess any one of these would do? Petco is probably the easiest to buy from so I guess the Ultra Sun will be my version of the 6500K. I like that you are doing side by side experiments, and even though intuitively the 6500's red peak is not optimal (610nm), there may be some property about it that creates a synergy with the other bulbs in veg to create growth. I'm going to give it a try. I will start with 2 Flora Suns and 2 Ultra Suns alternating, and maybe bump it up to 3 and 3 if it works. 

I am pretty happy with my flower combo of 3 Flora Suns, 2 Coral Waves, 3 Red Suns, but if a 6500K would help there too, I'd swap out a Coral Wave or a Flora Sun. Have you noticed the 6500K having any effect on flower, or just veg?


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## Redoctober (Jan 7, 2012)

I'm sure this has been asked a billion times but how do you get your pics to appear in the post "in line" instead of as attachments like UnderCurrent does?


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

Redoctober said:


> You're absolutely right, the Home Depot ones aren't HO; I didn't even think about that. I was hoping that I could at least order them from an aquarium store if not buy em locally. I won't order anything from a grow store personally. I could get the Ultra Suns @ Petco though if they are the same as the 6500's. I'm just looking at the two graphs of the Ultra Sun and the spectralux and they look fairly similar. Also you had posted the graph for the GE 6500K on page 145 which looks basically the same as the Ultra Sun. So I guess any one of these would do? Petco is probably the easiest to buy from so I guess the Ultra Sun will be my version of the 6500K. I like that you are doing side by side experiments, and even though intuitively the 6500's red peak is not optimal (610nm), there may be some property about it that creates a synergy with the other bulbs in veg to create growth. I'm going to give it a try. I will start with 2 Flora Suns and 2 Ultra Suns alternating, and maybe bump it up to 3 and 3 if it works.
> 
> I am pretty happy with my flower combo of 3 Flora Suns, 2 Coral Waves, 3 Red Suns, but if a 6500K would help there too, I'd swap out a Coral Wave or a Flora Sun. Have you noticed the 6500K having any effect on flower, or just veg?


I've read in MANY reviews that the GE starcoat 6500K bulbs don't last very long. I would try for the Plusrite 6500K brand. They will have the number 865 in the model #. If you can find a bulb with 965 in the model # that would be even better, I'm pretty sure the CRI rating is higher on those. 

As far as FLOWER goes, I haven't even gotten to flowering yet with T5's because I flower under 1000w HPS super Horti's. I will be experimenting with the flower stage under T5's eventually after I get the veg figured out. I don't really think you need any 6500K for flower. There is already a nice even mixture of wavelengths in the FloraSuns or any of the plant grow bulbs. I would think that a 50/50 mixture of FloraSuns and RedSuns would produce really well on their own. Then, for the last 2 to 4 weeks, try some blue/UV lighting to see if you can get the buds to swell. I've also heard that some throw in a few 6500K during the final stage instead of the blue/UV for the same reason since they already have the UV and BLUE light phosphors inside. Actually, on second thought, I would take out those Coral Waves and do 4 Flora Sun and 4 Red Sun, then at the last 2-4 weeks replace 1 each of the Flora's and Red's with the 2 Coral Waves. Those Coral Waves are Actinic bulbs with some added Red. I would use those for finishing and NOT the entire flower cycle. Since you've already used the Coral Waves for the entire flower cycle and are familiar with the results, I would try taking them out next time until finishing to compare the results. So for flowering do, 50% Redsun 50% FloraSun, then at the last 2-4 weeks throw the Coral's in there.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

Redoctober said:


> I'm sure this has been asked a billion times but how do you get your pics to appear in the post "in line" instead of as attachments like UnderCurrent does?


IDK, send him a PM, he will respond to you.


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## hyroot (Jan 7, 2012)

Buzzo said:


> I do believe this is a false statement. Got any evidence or research to back this up? Not trying to be a smart ass or anything, just genuinely interested.


I read it in dj shorts book, Growing Acceptionable Cannibis. When I get back home in 2 days. I can site it. Im out of town for work. I'll try see if I can find it online. 

If I remember right it said plants produce most of their fiber chlorophyll at night an lack of woul pro long the flowering phase


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

Wanted to share this:

*Actinic*

These tubes emit light only from the blue end of the spectrum and are used in marine setups to supply the blue that is missing from normal aquarium lighting but is required by marine algae, anemones and corals. They are usually only available from specialty aquarium stores and are not cheap. They have little or no application for growing freshwater aquarium plants. 
http://aquaria.net/articles/lighting/FAQ/fluorescent/
Since these ocean dwelling photosynthetic creatures live at such a deep level in the water, they have adapted to only using the light available that can penetrate the water at those depths. The only wavelengths that can reach the bottom of the ocean at those depths are the UV, blue, or Actinic type wavelength.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

More useful info:
http://www.mmmfaq.com/light-measured-lighting-spectrum-photosythesis/
http://fotohobbist.com/blog/2011/08/19/what-kind-of-lights-ar-best-for-a-planted-aquarium/

I'm really starting to doubt the use of actinic only aquarium bulbs for the growing purpose.

Another:
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/grow-supply-product-reviews/85000-fluorescent-light-info.html

Please read thoroughly, these sites have some really good info for everyone.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 7, 2012)

As a guy who current
Y is begging my plants under 4 8 bulb batboys and 2 4 bulb generic T5's I can say you are all probably over thinking it.

I have yet to see growth from anyone like what can be achieved just simply begging und 6500 grow bulbs from Quantum and vegging under ALL Bloom bulbs which are 3000k and also from Quantum. $10 each.

I will be running more experiments as well soon mixing in some Red Suns and Fiji Purples in flower.

Check out this vid. All Bloom Bulbs 3000k. No clue of spectrum but cheap. Also a C02 burner in room and solid growing methods methods using a sealed room.

[video=youtube;gyG_SfvHCHE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyG_SfvHCHE&sns=em[/video]

*http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyG_SfvHCHE&sns=em

*

Y


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 7, 2012)

^ sorry formispellings. Typing on iPad


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 7, 2012)

Here is another T5 grow using Quantum Bloom bulbs only
[video=youtube;d7hYxksnT1E]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7hYxksnT1E&sns=em[/video]


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d7hYxksnT1E&sns=em


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 7, 2012)

I have never advocated using actinic only... I also have never said use all red suns either, in fact i urge people to use the 75.25 bulbs or 10000k bulbs to complete the spectrum.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> More useful info:
> http://www.mmmfaq.com/light-measured-lighting-spectrum-photosythesis/
> http://fotohobbist.com/blog/2011/08/19/what-kind-of-lights-ar-best-for-a-planted-aquarium/
> 
> ...



I prefer peer reviewed scientific documentation...
http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/11/3107.full


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 7, 2012)

Second this is a PAR thread if you have nothing to add about the topic create your own thread.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I prefer peer reviewed scientific documentation...
> http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/11/3107.full



Behold the power of cryptochrome (blue light response regulation) we actually use it too. Both plants and humans use c-chrome to regulate circadian rhythm. 
Okthanks, I value everyone's contributions and I appreciate the links but I stand with the prof here, there are solid studies debunking many statements in the first article, for example:
"Lumens are meaningless for plants, as green plants do not utilize green light for photosynthesis"
Lower canopy light (the stuff that "penetrates", why HPS is so widely used) is mostly green, yellow, and 700nm+. These spectrum bands are incredibly important and this article is dangerously misleading to imply that they aren't.
Should I go on?
-MPP

p.s.
""K" means temperature, it stands for Kelvin. A Kelvin degree is the same size as the Celsius degree, but 373K = 0C = freezing point."
WTF????? 373 K is boiling dude

​


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 7, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I have never advocated using actinic only... I also have never said use all red suns either, in fact i urge people to use the 75.25 bulbs or 10000k bulbs to complete the spectrum.


What do you think of those videos I just posted Professeur using all 1 type of bulb?


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I prefer peer reviewed scientific documentation...
> http://jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/61/11/3107.full


So, posting helpful info from other websites is not acceptable in your book? All it is for is to make people think, I never said anything about the links I posted being THE TRUTH. You never know what might spark an idea in someone else. Anyway, I am not in competition to see who can post the best link. LOL

Also, this article you have posted is based on growing CUCUMBER plants under 4000K Flouro bulbs and/or LEDs only. Not sure how you can relate this to the Actinic aquarium bulb and growing weed. Did you even read the article you posted? It pretty much says EXACTLY what I've been trying to tell everyone about BLUE light. In the article you've posted here it says that the addition of blue light at 7% gives the plants what they need for photosynthesis and any extra blue light over 50% blue starts to create a problem. This is what I have found with blue light, although it seems that the strain I have responds even better with closer to a 25% blue MAXIMUM. I would say that comparing cucumbers to weed is not really the best way to come up with a valid answer to a hypothesis about blue light and weed. Testing is the only way we can come up with a valid answer here. 

I also have not once suggested that weed try to be grown under RED only light. The bulbs I think do a great job already have a good amount of blue in them. The ProColor for example already have spikes in the blue regioin.(I could have sworn you stated at the start of this thread that the ProColors WERE your FAVORITE bulb, but hey........maybe I misread or something. I'm sure you will tell me how I'm wrong in some form or another soon enough. What I have been finding is that without the right amount of blue light, plants will either stretch or not grow upwards at all. Also, in this article they were using RED LED only light. RED LEDs DO NOT have any blue in them at all. The PINK bulbs that work so well, however, do have blue light in them. I just don't think adding an Actinic OR a Fiji purple, OR a blue only bulb of some kind will add any benefit and MAY inhibit growth for some strains. And just to clarify, when I write "Actinic Only Bulbs" what I am referring to are bulbs that have ONLY Actinic light in them and no other peaks. For example the UVL Super Actinic is an Actinic ONLY bulb. I was not saying "try to grow with Actinic ONLY bulbs", that is moronic. It doesn't even go with anything I've said. I have been saying use the PROCOLOR BULBS, USE THE PROCOLOR BULBS, USE THE PROCOLOR BULBS, for quite some time now. If you haven't seen that part of my posts, then you quite obviously ARE NOT reading my posts. You did state that you "do not have enought time to read everyone's posts." So obviously that is what is going on here.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Second this is a PAR thread if you have nothing to add about the topic create your own thread.


Have nothing to add about the topic? You really don't read do you. It really seems like you just post on here because you like to see yourself talk. BTW the 75/25 bulbs and 10,000K bulbs are just 6500K bulbs with added blue and green. This idea that you "own" this thread is completely moronic. You are not the first one to have this idea. Far from it. So telling me to start my "own" thread shows your adolescence. Compared to everyone else on here, you have contributed the LEAST. You have even said many times that you don't have time to read posts, or respond. Everyone has had an equal contribution to this thread, and although you "started" the thread, you are far from "owning" it. What a moronic idea. Congratulations! You just made my ignore list(shit-list). You haven't said one positive thing yet and your arrogance...........yuck!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> It really seems like you just post on here because you like to see yourself talk.


I would say this really applies to you!

I would have much more faith in you bulb selection if you made a post showing everyone day by day growth over your 10 day trial period with said bulbs.

Personally I think 150$ for 8 bulbs that last 2 years @ 12/12 is very expensive, and I'll be looking for new cheeper ways of getting phenomenal veg growth.

Page after page of long winded statements does nothing for me, I need to see the proof!


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 7, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What do you think of those videos I just posted Professeur using all 1 type of bulb?


You can use any type of bulb you choose, and yes the grow and bloom bulbs work, and for some that enough. i have documented and provided studies from multiple sources stating that the wavelenghts of light that im using have a beneficial impact on plant growth. I never said in any way to use actinic only or any "specific" bulb but to use a blend that COVERS THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM.
Actinics have a LARGER and more balanced "blue spectrum" 
red suns have a larger and more complete "red" spectrum" 
Actinic light has a HUGE impact on CO2 absorbtion and as this is a PAR discussion thread and is the intent of the discussion here. were are ALL experimenting to find the good balance. If 6500k T5 is good for you great... i urge you to find others that are having success with that method and learn from them. If you are interested in PAR growing stick around there are plenty of people here who ARE ACTUALLY RUNNING PAR SETUPS.... and are providing rsults as the grows progress.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> To everyone that has only posted positive, productive things to say: Thank you for all the information and ideas you have shared. Keep up the good work and don't let these other forum jerk-offs mess with you. You have every right to post ANYWHERE on this website that you want to, so don't feel like the jerks run this place.


Since I believe I posted a pretty damn positive response to you considering the material you recommended I appreciate the acknowledgment in this post even thought I believe you don't intend me to. My Kelvin quote came from your 3rd recommendation in that post, and had you read it yourself you would know the exact post I was talking about because it was on the FIRST PAGE. Pretty standard practice to vet your links before posting if you want to protect YOUR integrity, which has hardly been shaken in my eyes if that matters even a smidge to ya.

But in the interest of positivity I, again, thank you for your contributions, and can't wait for this all to blow over so I can continue to benefit from your useful information. I enjoyed the adolescent comment btw, starting to hit the age where it feels good to be called young.

Hit me up when you get a hankering to talk about flavoproteins.
-MPP


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 7, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> You can use any type of bulb you choose, and yes the grow and bloom bulbs work, and for some that enough. i have documented and provided studies from multiple sources stating that the wavelenghts of light that im using have a beneficial impact on plant growth. I never said in any way to use actinic only or any "specific" bulb but to use a blend that COVERS THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM.
> Actinics have a LARGER and more balanced "blue spectrum"
> red suns have a larger and more complete "red" spectrum"
> Actinic light has a HUGE impact on CO2 absorbtion and as this is a PAR discussion thread and is the intent of the discussion here. were are ALL experimenting to find the good balance. If 6500k T5 is good for you great... i urge you to find others that are having success with that method and learn from them. If you are interested in PAR growing stick around there are plenty of people here who ARE ACTUALLY RUNNING PAR SETUPS.... and are providing rsults as the grows progress.
> View attachment 1980152


I have yet to see better production than what iposted in those videosusig T5.how about you guys?


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## pedro420 (Jan 7, 2012)

lucius - i like the growth you got in your videos once i grt my tent and set up ill be able to put up my resaults im going to do a few test o my own and keep all the information on all the grows so i have refrence points on all the experaments 

they will be done with the same steains and same kigt sourc just diffrent bulbs


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

ust because I can't remember where I picked up the theory, may not have been here, but is everyone of the understanding that mountain strains expect/benefit from a certain wavelength-heavy spectrum more than jungle dominants? Translate that as you like but it would seem to be a huge factor in the formula that could be really frustrating if not accounted for.
Thanks for reading my thoughts,
MPP

p.s. I know there is a lot of info here, but what a beautiful picture, if you can make sense of it. (used without permission from wikipedia article on sunlight subhead spectral irradiation I think)
View attachment 1980340J
peace y'all


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> Just because I can't remember where I picked up the theory, may not have been here, but is everyone of the understanding that mountain strains expect/benefit from a certain wavelength-heavy spectrum more than jungle dominants? Translate that as you like but it would seem to be a huge factor in the formula that could be really frustrating if not accounted for.
> Thanks for reading my thoughts,
> MPP


Theories say mountain strains are used to getting more UVa and UVb at the higher elevations, and react to these wavelengths by creating more resin which acts like a sunblock for them. The same will happen when tropical strains are exposed to UV, but they're more likely to suffer from overexposure and damage than the mountain strains (afghan/kush etc.) and may benefit less


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> No one knows who or what you are talking about, DUDE? Great another immature adolescent. EXACTLY just what everyone needs here.





okthanks2 said:


> To everyone that has only posted positive, productive things to say: Thank you for all the information and ideas you have shared. Keep up the good work and don't let these other forum jerk-offs mess with you. You have every right to post ANYWHERE on this website that you want to, so don't feel like the jerks run this place.



you have gotta be one truly screwed up fella, one post you insult someone who may have mis-understood a concept and needed clarification, someone who is obviously new and is here for help with their medicine. Perfect chance to welcome someone to the community (I wonder if anyone welcomed you when you jumped into someone elses thread with negativity towards the OP?) 

Then the next post, you try to salvage support from anyone left who you havent insulted yet, contradicting your previous statement where you dumped on a new member for posting.

You are too much, if theres one person who wants you here then by all means stay... otherwise please go away, youve done nothing but quarrel with anyone who doesnt agree with your every word. You have to remember that everyones set up is different (for ex...you keep reccommending pro-colors where a large majority have 4ft fixtures and procolors arent available in 54w.)

This thread existed for along time before I came in, and even longer before you got here. But there has never been such negativity as since you came in. Again, please stop.
Telling the OP that he's on your shit list? please. you want to ignore HIM, leave HIS thread. you're too agro.
I still think its hilarious you accuse me of being a liar when I called you out on deleting your most insulting posts. (refer to post #2030... real classy)


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

No, actually, I am posting here to provide information, this has to be about the 100th time I've said this! So that is what I will continue doing. I'm done explaining my explanations. If you don't believe my results, I could care less. Why would I lie about my results? I've already presented photos of my problem with the blue light. If you are lazy and do not want to go and look at the photos, that's your problem not mine. I showed you a photo of the same strain under HPS absolutely flourishing. Undercurrent, you actually are the one that replied to the photos I presented, so lay off the weed if you can't remember shit! LMAO It really isn't that hard to go back about 50 pages to see the photos. As I said already, I will post the photos of the NEW results as I get them. Why would I post a photo day by day? That isn't my method and it is pointless since we are all going for the actual results. It will take more than 1 or 2 days to see results, that's why I'm giving it more time. I don't see why you have an issue with something I've discovered being believable or not. I'm posting my results, nothing more, nothing less. I really can't get over this dumbed down internet forum mentality many of you seem to have. Fortunately there are about 1,000,000 other people that don't even bother wasting their time posting that will see the useful information I have to offer and use it as they see fit. As far as the 3 or 4 of you who have some kind of "stick up the ass" problem with every idea or post that I present, really I DON'T CARE, so STFU and spare yourself some dignity.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> I would say this really applies to you!
> 
> I would have much more faith in you bulb selection if you made a post showing everyone day by day growth over your 10 day trial period with said bulbs.
> 
> ...





okthanks2 said:


> To everyone that has only posted positive, productive things to say: Thank you for all the information and ideas you have shared. Keep up the good work and don't let these other forum jerk-offs mess with you. You have every right to post ANYWHERE on this website that you want to, so don't feel like the jerks run this place.





Lucius Vorenus said:


> I have yet to see better production than what iposted in those videosusig T5.how about you guys?


I have yet to see good results posted. I've searched this whole thread and do not see one photo of an actual quality looking bud that makes this whole PAR T5 idea even remotely convincing that it is better than using only cheap daylight bulb. The only buds that look nice are Calrt's who vegged under a 600w MH. There are just not even close to enough lumens in a T5 bulb to provide enough energy for plants to flower properly.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

Because it still continues, no one cares anymore about your results with blue/red light, its not about that at all. Its your attitude, no one has yet told you to STFU, despite your negativity that has been directed at specific people, yet still no one has told you to STFU. It should have been done along time ago, Im tired of having to scroll past all your BS to find anything of substance here anymore. just please stop clogging up the thread with dribble.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

Oh man! go to his profile and add to ignore list! you dont have to see all his BS! I didnt know you could do that. It says post not visible because he's on your ignore list... much less to scroll through on every page! lol sweet!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> I have yet to see good results posted. I've searched this whole thread and do not see one photo of an actual quality looking bud that makes this whole PAR T5 idea even remotely convincing that it is better than using only cheap daylight bulb. The only buds that look nice are Calrt's who vegged under a 600w MH. There are just not even close to enough lumens in a T5 bulb to provide enough energy for plants to flower properly.


You clearly missed the videos I posted on the last page


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> You clearly missed the videos I posted on the last page



well he says that carlt's got the best buds... that were vegged under a 600wMH. irrelevent because vegging doesnt make those nice looking buds... note he flowered under PAR t5's and a HPS to compare results, and I appreciate the scientific input from Carlt. 

But Im done with that idiot, I dont care if he cures cancer he's proven himself unworthy of my time anymore. I feel dumber for having taken so much time replying to his immaturity in the first place... 
ignore list 

anyway lucius, I saw yer buds... nice! but how many total bulbs again? just curious cuz those are pretty tall for indoor, but have really nice lower bud development...sidelighting?

edit... saw another vid of yours and your setup, no sidelights... love it, you're getting nice buds downlow at 2ft+ from the bulbs! one of those tops looks like an artichoke lol, all them fingers just reaching for the heavens! nice


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

okthanks:
Just because I felt a little personally indicated in your posts and exuding positivity is part and parcel to my being, pm me a very specific question and I will do my best to assist you. I can assure you that I have had no problem confirming the indications of the research reading I've undertaken using PAR specific t5 bulbs. Things like yield and quality have more to do with container size (soil) reservoir size (-ponics) and nutes +biota than light given certain ideals are met. You think you got a NL strain? (or know I mean no disrespect) Most likely its been grown under HPS for decades and chances are you have a pheno which prefers something close. What are you trying to do with it? "Get better results" -can be relative, but I'm even willing to talk it through with ya, just play nice please. Thanks for your time,
-MPP
p.s. general offer open to anyone, my experience will not be our limitation as the vastness of the web is open to us


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## pedro420 (Jan 7, 2012)

WHY THE FUCK CANT PEOPLE GET ALONG

look i have read this entire thread like 4 times it is very usefull it has a bunch of indepth information on the bulbs and different combonations you can use NOWHERE in the thread does it say these are better than these ect ect 

people are here to SHARE there experaments with eachouther and to get help with chooseing par lights IF they choose to use them 

i have sat here and read all the stupidity not saying anything and not boosting egos by replying this thread has gone to shyt it was once a good information place now its rittled with bullshyt IMO everyone needs to get off the computer go smoke your self retarded and just stop being a dush if the person that keeps saying negative things is makeing you mad my advice is LEAVE IT ALONE DONT POST BACK posting back to the stupidity will only cause more stupidity to come along thus taking up more room on the thread 

now i know someone is gonna have something bad to say abiut this but his is what you should do instead of posting back some dumbass shyt about me SHUT THE FUCK UP AND DONT WASTE YOR TIME the energy you spend typing replies to me is useless energy used cuz im not going to boost your ego by answering you im jst gonna read it and laugh it off 

P.S to thoes who are trying to solve this problem i thank you


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> WHY THE FUCK CANT PEOPLE GET ALONG
> 
> look i have read this entire thread like 4 times it is very usefull it has a bunch of indepth information on the bulbs and different combonations you can use NOWHERE in the thread does it say these are better than these ect ect
> 
> ...


Very very very very well spoken sir! Can't answer your question as to what the fuck is wrong with people!


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## okthanks2 (Jan 7, 2012)

http://www.htgsupply.com/Category-T5-Fluorescent.asp


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 7, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Oh man! go to his profile and add to ignore list! you dont have to see all his BS! I didnt know you could do that. It says post not visible because he's on your ignore list... much less to scroll through on every page! lol sweet!


Hallelujah!!!

Just what I was looking for!


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

Sorry to run on with short posts all, but when you go switching light sources, remember that you are causing significant stress to your little leafy friends. Different nm's of EMrad have different energy levels associated with them and the best results have been seen with a more constant exposure (cut or seed to harvest). Drastic changes in the light type will disrupt circadian rhythms more than even dark times alone would and stress (like in humans) is not a force to under-reckon.
My last 2 cents for tonight, the lady's got me doing all the responsible stuff around the house 2night.
PEace,
MPP


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 7, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> As a guy who current
> Y is begging my plants under 4 8 bulb batboys and 2 4 bulb generic T5's I can say you are all probably over thinking it.
> 
> I have yet to see growth from anyone like what can be achieved just simply begging und 6500 grow bulbs from Quantum and vegging under ALL Bloom bulbs which are 3000k and also from Quantum. $10 each.
> ...



Very nice post Lucius! 

Those are some great looking bud filled plants you have there! 

Do you have a link to your grow thread? I'd like to check it out and probably others too.

+Rep on the sweet grow room!


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## aoyanagi (Jan 7, 2012)

JUP-1360 Magnesium arsenate phosphor
Mg5As2O11: Mn Red 660nm 

Available after searcing phosphor 660nm on yahoo. Now we know what ingredient our bulbs need, yes? Sorry if this was covered and I missed it. From second result in that yahoo search, made-in-china.com 

So, um, anyone have the balls to contact mfr to see who has it and who doesn't? And maybe who makes reliable inexpensive bulbs already and might want to, ahem *cough* expand their prospective market? Just a thought . . .

Edit: searching Magnesium arsenate phosphor one of the first results mentions that it's 20x more expensive than most other phosphors. Methinks this explains the Fiji's price.


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## overTHEman (Jan 7, 2012)

aoyanagi said:


> JUP-1360 Magnesium arsenate phosphor
> Mg5As2O11: Mn Red 660nm
> 
> Available after searcing phosphor 660nm on yahoo. Now we know what ingredient our bulbs need, yes? Sorry if this was covered and I missed it. From second result in that yahoo search, made-in-china.com
> ...


Welcome, aoyanagi.

I believe that information comes from the following site: http://www.itgcchem.com/phosphor/phosphor.htm - correct? It's great to have you along. We'll both be waiting to hear from the experts on those phosphor blends!

...

Today, the pr0fesseur's thread taught me about ignore lists and how to use them. This thread is always a good read.



Happy Growing.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

aoyanagi said:


> JUP-1360 Magnesium arsenate phosphor
> Mg5As2O11: Mn Red 660nm
> 
> Available after searcing phosphor 660nm on yahoo. Now we know what ingredient our bulbs need, yes? Sorry if this was covered and I missed it. From second result in that yahoo search, made-in-china.com
> ...


Yup, and the majority of specialty T5 tubes are for coral/saltwater setups where red is much less important to marine life especially at any depth, they dont have much reason to research/develop/produce the deeper red tubes that we're missing. Blue is a dime a dozen, its the good solid red bulb that is like gold, that can really fill in a full spectrum fixture. 

Ideally (my opinion is) if T5 tubes were made more like LED's with single individual spikes of output at our choice of wavelengths, a 6 bulb fixture with 4 tubes (two blues/two reds) to hit each of the 4 peaks of chlorophyll A+B ... with two other wide spectrum tubes like some 6500k, redwave or plantgrows to cover the phycoeyrthrin, phycocyanin and beta carotine, in the green/yellow/orange ranges between the red/blue peaks, would provide an optimal blend and would MORE than compete with the HID eqivalent (two 150w HPS spaced about 2ft apart = 300w vs 326w 6bulb T5) Ive used two 150's before, for several years infact. The response and bushiness I saw when I ran my plants under a single 4tube (216w) fixture for two weeks during trans to flower -tight nodes and minimal stretch- was much improved over the 300w of HPS I had before (using the same shitty mexican sativa genetics). I still say watt for watt, T5's compete with HID. Is it the cheapest? hell no, but the extra cost hurts less than the extra heat and issues that come with HID's. Again today, my AC came on lol. 87+outside


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Ideally (my opinion is) if T5 tubes were made more like LED's with single individual spikes of output at our choice of wavelengths, a 6 bulb fixture with 4 tubes (two blues/two reds) to hit each of the 4 peaks of chlorophyll A+B ... with two other wide spectrum tubes like some 6500k, redwave or plantgrows to cover the phycoeyrthrin, phycocyanin and beta carotine, in the green/yellow/orange ranges between the red/blue peaks, would provide an optimal blend and would MORE than compete with the HID eqivalent


..
Yo bro, got nothin but love for ya but check this from the wiki on phycocyanin:
"Phycocyanins are found in Cyanobacteria (previously called blue-green algae)."

Doesn't mean you shouldn't target for those, just the graph that im pretty sure we both have seen gives a lot of significance to something that may not even be that useful to higher plants.
Analyze my posted pic of the sunlight radiance. Many studies (im happy to post another time) have associated "sun emulating" bulb spectrums with positive results, including UV emissions (selective spectrum studies have shown UV linked to essential oil/terpenoid production) the far red are important as I said in an earlier post because their ratio to PAR light is actually a driver for generative genetic expression (if it doesn't make sense google it ((( no seriously, I did after posting and found this, looks like a good read---going into the archive for a sleepless night http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC159944/pdf/020953.pdf )))). Yo got the right idea methinks with the multi single-ish spectrum peak bulbs to dial in a balanced, hopefully blue heavy emission.
Just a brain fart on stunting:
Blue light, via cryptochrome is known for initiation of positive phototropism in plants. If you want your plant to stretch, move your blue light away. Get it? Got it? Good. You can even do some crazy LST stuff with blue light, did I give any of you ideas yet?
Word.
MPP
p.s. you do know you can run blue light at night right? Just make sure its pure... if only we knew of a wavelength specific efficient (ultra?) light source...naw not on this thread... (just teasing, we all love a little semantic play) I keep looking at those combo-light aquarium hoods. HID (despite my oaths against it- more for safety and conservation than for moral objections, its not a superiority game y'all) + t5 + LED moonlights? excuse me while I change my pants


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

Good catch  I dont think that belongs in my mj lol. Just wanted to show that there is more to plant reproduction than chlorophyll A/B. Good food for thought. Thats why some (myself included) use the coral waves to help initiate flowering due to the far red's role in triggering that response. Yup, was going from that same graph, geared toward aquarists. But it just reinforces that there is more to it than the 2red/2blue peaks to worry about, and you shouldnt leave out the rest of the light... even though your garden wont look quite so cool anymore like the leds do


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Good catch  I dont think that belongs in my mj lol. Just wanted to show that there is more to plant reproduction than chlorophyll A/B. Good food for thought. Thats why some (myself included) use the coral waves to help initiate flowering due to the far red's role in triggering that response.
> ...
> But it just reinforces that there is more to it than the 2red/2blue peaks to worry about, and you shouldnt leave out the rest of the light... even though your garden wont look quite so cool anymore like the leds do


yo dawg coral waves are legit for blue spec, same companies super blue is going into testing later. My thoughts on that graph:
Perfect example of PAR. PAR is a scientific concept, not a strain/plant/species/genus/domain specific requirement set. Do what gardeners-philosophers have done for millenia-- got a foreign plant? emulate home environment.
RE: the idea of balanced spec instead of hitting peaks
Ive found study after study that correlate "poor-quality" light with how shall we say...undesirable or unpredictable morphisms. Take from that what you like but it stands to reason to me (and forgive me PLEASE for repeating myself) that providing full spectrum--emulate the graph should get you consistent terrestrial results, despite your effective subterranean environment.

-MPP

p.s. I want to point out that today was one of the more painful days of my life and I totally kept my cool. Not consistent with my internet history/rep or whatever so big ups to the new meds.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

Also, the reason why you won't find aquarium market bulbs with the far red phosphors, aside from the fact that they are expensive as all hell:
(that sun graph prevails again)
Why is the ocean water blue? what does that tell you about its properties of absorption? Damn corals never get the red lovin. Enter low kelvin CFLs i guess, or LEDs if you got the moolah or the soldering craft. Been talking to an induction lighting company, anyone else on the same path? these guys use a 13 phosphor blend to target PAR peaks.....
Thanks for the welcome btw undercover, first one on RIU to do so 
-MPP


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

Has anyone else heard of the Wavepoint ULTRA GROWTH WAVE ??? Aoyanagi pointed me to their website, where is says COMING SOON. then in other brand literature from them, they refer to it as the ULTRA COLA  model # 01084... waiting to see a SPD for that bulb, sounds interesting, possibly a 10k... or a fiji clone w/ a graph we can see finally  red sun replacement ??? hmmm




whats wrong w/ this graph?

lol, seems abit "off" to me


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

dude I saw that on their site.... (the ultras)
have you emailed them yet?
I had a couple beers and I don't think I should for a while at least.
That graph is interesting ((((perhaps a rearrangment of light waves to show some kind of particular molecular effect? as the sun graph shows, there is kind of a banding of light which has certain absorption properties, the graph I'm looking for ties it all together)))), let me try to find the one my PAR-prof (not the prof here AFAIK) showed me... 
(this isn't it but holy crap does it look fun, wish I didn't have to pay to find out how useful it is but maybe worth it even if mostly bust)
http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=28_49&products_id=398

(damn this is fun too)
"Electromagnetic radiation is often described by its frequency&#8212;the number of oscillations of the perpendicular electric and magnetic fields per second&#8212;expressed in hertz.Radio frequency radiation is usually measured in kilohertz, megahertz, or gigahertz; this is why radio dials are commonly labeled with kHz, MHz, and GHz. Light is electromagnetic radiation that is even higher in frequency, and has frequencies in the range of tens (infrared) to thousands (ultraviolet) of terahertz." (wiki on EMrad)
so our blue/low nm has more energy in it if the "light output" in photons is the same. Booya, blue light is the more efficient transfer for t5, since you are starting with UV from the internal plasma anyways.
Sorry if this is 100% greek, I'm beyond translating at this point.
MPP
p.s. no luck on the prof graph, i know its in the txtbook, maybe its copyright protected and not on net? will see


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> i have sat here and read all the stupidity not saying anything and not boosting egos by replying this thread has gone to shyt it was once a good information place now its rittled with bullshyt


I was starting to get a negative feeling I was having trouble putting my finger on, I hope my excessive posting has alleviated some of the ego-biased posting ratio we all experienced. 
Peace and love


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## pedro420 (Jan 7, 2012)

yes im much happier now would have been back earlier but im running into a lil bit of an issue sfarting my garden 

see ive got my new light (t5 four foot four bulb ) just useing the h-o grow and bloom mixed spectrum for veg then going to ude all bloom for flowering or i just mite keep it mixed havent decided yet ive got all i need to get started but the most important thing my tent 

so therefore im trying to start my babies in the bottom of my closet under all my clothes hanging the light from the bar inbetween cloths lol i know it sounds realy ghetto but it should be ok sence its only gonna veg there untill i got my tent hopefully thats soone the company said they was on back order but i called yesterday and they said the just got them and he wss sending shipping a email to give them the go ahead but i yet to get a email saying its been shipped 

but quick question this will be my firt time useing cups to start due to hight restrictions 
what would be a good mix of soil and perlite im thinkin like half and half if it helps im goin to be starting directly in sooil


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 7, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> dude I saw that on their site.... (the ultras)
> have you emailed them yet?
> I had a couple beers and I don't think I should for a while at least.
> That graph is interesting ((((perhaps a rearrangment of light waves to show some kind of particular molecular effect? as the sun graph shows, there is kind of a banding of light which has certain absorption properties, the graph I'm looking for ties it all together)))), let me try to find the one my PAR-prof (not the prof here AFAIK) showed me...
> ...


damn lol, too much to smoke and too hungry rite now to make much sense of that right now lol!, but the graph I showed had curiously re-arranged the reds and greens... instead of VIBGYOR (violet indigo blue green yellow orange red) it went BIVROYG (blue indigo violet red orange yellow green) lol! and apparently green is 740-790nm!


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> but quick question this will be my firt time useing cups to start due to hight restrictions
> what would be a good mix of soil and perlite im thinkin like half and half if it helps im goin to be starting directly in sooil



Sure, 50% perlite might be a bit much (most mixes I see are 20-40%, but if you have an enclosed side container (opposite of an airpot) you kinda want a lot of aeration. Lack thereof + overwatering = willful denitrification via bacteria, assuming they are present. If they aren't you are kinda missing out even if you are chem gro because they will fix N from the atmosphere as long as they have access. 
-MPP


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## mipainpatient (Jan 7, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> damn lol, too much to smoke and too hungry rite now to make much sense of that right now lol!, but the graph I showed had curiously re-arranged the reds and greens... instead of VIBGYOR (violet indigo blue green yellow orange red) it went BIVROYG (blue indigo violet red orange yellow green) lol! and apparently green is 740-790nm!


You are seeing correctly, that graph does represent a not 'wavelength nm' true representation. But if you were ordering the wavelength spectrums by activity....type? or net END effect, they might be on to something. I know it sounds far fetched but beyond something of that nature, yea the graph can be disregarded as a rearrangement of the typical form of spectral output graph we have been conditioned to see.


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## pedro420 (Jan 8, 2012)

thank you patient

im going with a 30% mix in my grow bags when my tent gets here (hopeing with fingers crossed it is soone) 

but like i said ive never started in cups always started in final pot but ill go with a 20%/30% mix ill think more about it tonite ive been trying to find a way to germ withalmost perfect resaults as i dont want to loose the 5 seeds i have as i dont have ne more and wont be able to get sny for a long time


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

wave point ultra growth wave


http://www.wave-point.com/images/WavePoint product flyer.pdf


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> thank you patient
> 
> im going with a 30% mix in my grow bags when my tent gets here (hopeing with fingers crossed it is soone)
> 
> but like i said ive never started in cups always started in final pot but ill go with a 20%/30% mix ill think more about it tonite ive been trying to find a way to germ withalmost perfect resaults as i dont want to loose the 5 seeds i have as i dont have ne more and wont be able to get sny for a long time



put a seed in a cup of water over night. if its good it should sink by the next day(from growing marijuana soma style ). 

get some rapid rooters

put the seed in a plug 

put plug with seed in it into a party cup or what ever with soil. 

barely cover the plug with soil. just enough to block light but not to much so the sproutling can't push through.

set under a cfl or a single bulb t5 water a little and wait.

works every time and i have had a female every single time.



Also I use 2 gal grow bags and I've tried different ratios of perlite and even without adding any. My best results are 50/50 perlite/soil. With ffof soil which does not have much perlite to begin with. I lst too. That's just from my experience.


p,s. get Soma's book. he is the man.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

Little tip, if you are using party cups, take a razor/sharp edge to the sides (think perforation) to the bottom 1/2 to 1/3rd of the cup and it should increase the impact of your positive offering to your leafy friend 
MPP
edit: 
didnt realize you were going from seed, in addition to the cutting mod to cup scheme, celophane on the top is recommended for first few days + heat from underneath or ambient i guess works, just to emulate early spring sun-heated moist soil....mmmmm I think we could all sprout in some of that


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> wave point ultra growth wave
> 
> 
> http://www.wave-point.com/images/WavePoint product flyer.pdf


*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hyroot again*

It looks like that fucker's got the same 610nm spike that the redwave has, but then it plateau's through 630 then spikes BIG at 660!!! when do they come out!? that looks like a good wide/full spectrum bulb, prob a little pinker than the fiji's cuz of the green, but damn I like em. Ill be waiting in line to order a few, Wavepoints are priced really well so I wont have a prob getting a few to try  Big props to Aoyanagi who was the first to mention it to me, and BIG props Hyroot for the SPD... You always manage to pull good shit like this and that post from KZ, where do you keep all this top secret info?!?


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

i might just wait for that ultra growth. i like the red and it peaks at 660(highest) and 630 and the blue peaks just before 430. too much green though. still nice though


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> *You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to hyroot again*
> 
> It looks like that fucker's got the same 610nm spike that the redwave has, but then it plateau's through 630 then spikes BIG at 660!!! when do they come out!? that looks like a good wide/full spectrum bulb, prob a little pinker than the fiji's cuz of the green, but damn I like em. Ill be waiting in line to order a few, Wavepoints are priced really well so I wont have a prob getting a few to try  Big props to Aoyanagi who was the first to mention it to me, and BIG props Hyroot for the SPD... You always manage to pull good shit like this and that post from KZ, where do you keep all this top secret info?!?



google, its all how you word it. but of course i skim through quite a few sites and pdf's before striking gold.

that one was on the wave point site. just click on distributor at the top of the page.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> i might just wait for that ultra growth. i like the red and it peaks at 660(highest) and 630 and the blue peaks just before 430. too much green though. still nice though



Yeah but with other bulbs I have that have no green, like red suns, coral waves, super blues etc, I really dont mind that bit of green and its the only one I know that will have that much 660nm coverage, which isnt covered by anything I have now... HPS or T5. Im getting some. Ill let ya'll know of my results but I like that graph  and I like the other wavepoints I have and their low cost so Ill still be waiting for em. Lemme know when they come out if you find that.


lol I thought I was the google king...


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

bout to burn out but just wanted to offer you this undercover:
you want green and yellow, no matter the genetics, its minimums that you need to meet (full spec should cover this) and ratios that you wanna tweak (blue and red bulb changes you guys are doing) but don't fear the light that is the color of your leaves....the lower canopy depends on the ranges reflected by upper leaves (YELLOW, GREEN, INRARED <--- the most)
for real this time, laters all,
MPP
p.s. props to hyroot, no idea how to give rep but I was looking for that SPD to post and didn't want to mislead you guys if wave point was putting out another dud


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Yeah but with other bulbs I have that have no green, like red suns, coral waves, super blues etc, I really dont mind that bit of green and its the only one I know that will have that much 660nm coverage, which isnt covered by anything I have now... HPS or T5. Im getting some. Ill let ya'll know of my results but I like that graph  and I like the other wavepoints I have and their low cost so Ill still be waiting for em. Lemme know when they come out if you find that.
> 
> 
> lol I thought I was the google king...



the coral wave and the redsun both have small 10% and 20% bumps of green at 543nm. and the redsun has a 20% yellow spike at 580nm

im searching for release date now. i dont have a life anymore lol


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> bout to burn out but just wanted to offer you this undercover:
> you want green and yellow, no matter the genetics, its minimums that you need to meet (full spec should cover this) and ratios that you wanna tweak (blue and red bulb changes you guys are doing) but don't fear the light that is the color of your leaves....the lower canopy depends on the ranges reflected by upper leaves (YELLOW, GREEN, INRARED <--- the most)
> for real this time, laters all,
> MPP
> p.s. props to hyroot, no idea how to give rep but I was looking for that SPD to post and didn't want to mislead you guys if wave point was putting out another dud


click on sherriff star next to where it says journal this post and the triangle is to report a post (hint hint)


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

i emailed wave point......


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## Arabic (Jan 8, 2012)

i was thinking.... say all this time. the max lumens these 4 ft bulbs were outputting are significantly less than the 5000 you get by 6500k bulbs. Isn't that why HPS are more effective in flower anyway? not because of better spectrum, but because a 1000w hps is 150k lumens and a 1000w mh is only 90k lumens. Say these aquarium bulbs are 2k lumens?


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## Arabic (Jan 8, 2012)

for the best 4 bulb veg combo id say: ATI Blue Plus + UVL Super Actinic + Aquafloro x2

lacking a bit 660nm but just look at the 6500k bulbs, they hardly have any. Maybe the aquafloro uses a skewed chart?



Aquafloro: http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting/t5-lamps/deltec-giesemann/giesemann-aquaflora-t5-ho-lamps


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## pedro420 (Jan 8, 2012)

thanks for the help again guys 

i dont have rapid root or the cash to get ne i just spent all my money on new equiptment abd bags for the garden but i do have jiffy pellets that i can use and a humidity dome


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> i emailed wave point......
> 
> View attachment 1981320


lol that pic is about right! Wave Point will be feeling it as soon as that bulb is available!

Nice find Hyroot! this Ultra Growth Wave bulb definitely looks like the One







Honestly, I would love to see what an 8 bulb BadBoy filled with 8 of Ultra Growth Waves entire cycle could do


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## PetFlora (Jan 8, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> IDK, send him a PM, he will respond to you.


You have to start from *Advanced *reply. There you will see an icon which will take you into your picture folders. It says "*select file*" (you can select something like 4-5 pics). When finished, the button next to it downloads them into your Reply. hth


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> thanks for the help again guys
> 
> i dont have rapid root or the cash to get ne i just spent all my money on new equiptment abd bags for the garden but i do have jiffy pellets that i can use and a humidity dome


DO NOT USE A DOME WITH SEEDS!!!!!!!

The humidity will kill them. Humidity is only neede for clones. With the pellets, barely get them wet. They retain water forever. Their ok for seeds but not good for clones. They retain water dor too long and rot the stem. Rapid rooters are te best. Ph balanced and a buffer. Discount hyrdro has themm for 12.95 a 50 pack. Plus shipping. I would use straight soil instead pellets. Get an insert for a propagation tray and put soil in a square. run water through the square. Let it dry. Then water a litrle again then put the seed two seed lengths down in the square. Probably should wait til seed cracks open from sitting in cup of water for that method


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## PetFlora (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> wave point ultra growth wave
> 
> 
> http://www.wave-point.com/images/WavePoint product flyer.pdf


That looks REALLY promising. Gonna check AS to see whether they carry it.


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## TheHeathen (Jan 8, 2012)

Wow, good to see Hyroot and PetFlora still truckin'! I just caught this thread at about midnight here on the left coast. Got to page 44 and it's 5:42 hahaha decided it's time for some shut eye, thought I'd see when the last post was in this epic thread of cumulative knowledge, low and behold, the usual suspects here posting it up. Cheers to you gentlemen, and cheers to the Prof!


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## TheHeathen (Jan 8, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> lol that pic is about right! Wave Point will be feeling it as soon as that bulb is available!
> 
> Nice find Hyroot! this Ultra Growth Wave bulb definitely looks like the One
> 
> ...



It was July, I think, back on page 44, so have bulbs advanced that much since then? I hate to be the guy that asks the same question that has been answered numerous times by et.al., but there is still alot of reading to do!


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## pedro420 (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot - i wasnt realy going to use thewhole dome just the bottom and a heat mat to add warmth to the cups im accualuy going to get rapid rooters when i order stuff again after i save some cash but thanks for the advice on not ueing them for clones trying to do this with limited suplies realy sucks 

but in anouther story im realy likeing the ultra growth wave it looks like it will be a realy good bulb to use


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> You stupid morons that is a pink bulb, you people really have no clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


speaking of not having a clue, finally down to ignore your annoying @$$ too. Never seen someone project so much on a forum. Seriously impressive bro, now find a mirror


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## pedro420 (Jan 8, 2012)

all im going to say is ...... WOW..... FUCKING WOW 

on aniuther note we all kno by now you like the pink bulb OK WE FUKING GET IT now we are all trying to helpe achouther out with information OBVISULY they like the ultra groth bulb cuz it ives higher spikes than you beloved pink bulb 

i was happy as my last post calmed the attitude and ego talk but yet again it is back 

Please if you dont have anything to share dont post arguements its not worth nebodys time to read unless they are backed with good information 

CAN WE GO BACK TO CALM NOW FOR CHRIST SAKE


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## aoyanagi (Jan 8, 2012)

Momma sez no more feeding the troll kids. Just ignore it and the tantrum will eventually stop when there's no audience. *deep breath, boobie hug* Now, are well all better yet?

Side note: okthanks2 I don't dislike you per se, but you aren't being constructive. As such you're on ignore for at least a week. Being disagreed with is frustrating, but when everyone disagrees with you they likely aren't ALL the ones with the misconception/misperception. The common denominator in these posts you're making is your anger. I'd suggest a good cognitive behavioral therapist to help you find out who you're really angry at. Did/do your parents never take your ideas seriously? I struggled for a long time with anger and resentment over that one.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

Nice, another for the ignore list. Get phosphor blend listings and you can make claims like that, start in on me about me health and you've already penned "THE END" to your story bro.

obviously superPAR is okthanks2 or a little buddy (join date Jan 2012, coming to okthanks2's rescue...number of posts correlates to posts on this thread etc etc)
its so cute that he invented an alter ego to protect himself from the "bad" guys and assail the legal patients of states that adhere to modern medical findings. 
Sorry to everyone else for adding to the smut but I think i've got some good contributions under my belt
MPP

p.s. you can legitemately use the 'report' function for okthanks2 and superPAR's posts if you feel that he is harassing, fighting, abusive etc. just fyi I wouldn't get excessive, but report a post of each and cite your logic and I think the point is made.


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## pedro420 (Jan 8, 2012)

for everyone who just chimed in im not disagreeing with nebody im trying to keep peace in here so we allcan help eachouther out and shar are experiences to let eachouther kno how things went when everyone is all hyped up over disagreements nothing can be talked about but if everyone chills out then talks about everything and shares information that we have found then we can accualy get somewhere


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

I did suffer myself to read your comment and I believe it goes against the basic principles of this WHOLE forum, consider yourself warned. You are making this personal


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

Oh great, okthanks is back... Just another name for the ignore list, and a PM with a transcript of your contributions here sent to Potroast, have fun with a blocked IP


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

Very off topic here, but I asked in the seed threads with no help, if I order from Attitude and ask for re-packaging, how can I tell which is which if theyre not in breeder packs? If they send em in the wallet, are they labeled? PM me pls to help, I'm ordering later today  finally good genetics


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## theexpress (Jan 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Very off topic here, but I asked in the seed threads with no help, if I order from Attitude and ask for re-packaging, how can I tell which is which if theyre not in breeder packs? If they send em in the wallet, are they labeled? PM me pls to help, I'm ordering later today  finally good genetics


lol i mean... man... you couldnt have chosen a better name bro?


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

theexpress said:


> lol i mean... man... you couldnt have chosen a better name bro?



So ive been asked several times... Can't change it to UNDERCOVER CrOP... Check my profile, I'm legit... 
Any help???


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 8, 2012)

theexpress said:


> lol i mean... man... you couldnt have chosen a better name bro?


^^^^^^
LMAO!
A month ago I didn't friend you because of it!
But now...... I'm pretty sure your cool! 

P.S. I enjoy all the info you bring to this PAR subject +Rep.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

Lol I left my request there for awhile  thx bro...ditto.


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## Arabic (Jan 8, 2012)

To get back on topic....im gonna repeat some questions

how do we know the LUMENS of these aquarium bulbs? Say they only output 2000 lumens instead of our 5k lumens from our GE bulbs



I am really looking forward to do a side-by-side veg with 4 6500ks and 1 veg combo (ati blue plus + uvl super actinic + aquafloro x2) the aquafloros can be replaced for a better bulb as soon as I find one, or maybe one Florasun. heres Aquafloro:




Just to clarify.. the new CORAL WAVE GROWTH doesn't seem to be a copy of any bulb except a close copy of the Aqua Medic Planta Bulbs which are now discontinued, here's the chart:



So the teak they made to the Aqua Medic Planta bulb is unfavorable to us. Here's the new chart, we see a lot less red and higher peaks of other colors. There IS a difference between these two.

Aqua Medic Plant Grow (NOT discontinued) imo they effed it up, it was halfway decent before. either way the peaks of blue and green are way high, at least it peaks highest at like 440nm so the blue light is PAR. just too narrow of a red band and too high of a green spike:




The ultra growth wave looks promising because roughly 45% of the band is red, there is very little green AND the blue seems to be PAR. I can't see the exact numbers does anyone have a higher res picture of ultra growths spectrum?




These are the Florasuns everyone is using for their 660nm, this bulb emits the most at 660nm out of all the bulbs we've talked about but the green spike is very high, although narrow. Also lots of blue.
View attachment 1982324


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

lumens measures what humans see, not actual light emission photons (which can be different wavelengths = different colors)

p.s.
more relevant is this info from wiki (trying to be helpful):

The *lumen (symbol: lm) is the SI derived unit of luminous flux, a measure of the total "amount" of visible light emitted by a source. Luminous flux differs from power (radiant flux) in that luminous flux measurements reflect the varying sensitivity of the human eye to different wavelengths of light, while radiant flux measurements indicate the total power of all light emitted, independent of the eye's ability to perceive it.

(MPP to lazy to change font/bold---this is why the pink bulb comments are asenine, as what we see has less impact on effect than..well..effect---assuming you have all other growth related variables dialed in it should be noticeable)

((also my earlier comments about light quality changes and morphisms come in with this logic, you want your pinky's to be there from the get go for best results. again just a theory, following logic, not trying to market anything to you))*


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

so what you want is a PAR meter, (see my earlier post for a pdf on PAR meter comparisons---pitfalls ahead sorry to say) and honestly, I think the cheapest "PAR" meters at our disposal are (our) plants. I've got some spinach tests going cuz they are fast and I plan on eating em alive anyways 
Strawberries are next
MPP


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## milfblaster (Jan 8, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> You morons, that ultrawave bulb is THE SAME BULB as the florasun, procolor, aquaglo, plant grow. If you buy this ultrawave bulb YOU WILL SEE THAT IT IS PINK. This place REALLY is full of idiots and morons. Unbelievable!





okthanks2 said:


> You stupid morons that is a pink bulb, you people really have no clue!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I find your ideas interesting and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


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## Arabic (Jan 8, 2012)

Lumens are more than what just humans see, I've got a light meter I can hold under my 1000w HPS and it'll read 150k lumens, like advertised. It's nothing special either.. and I'm aware that this is better quality light but if it isn't outputting enough lumens (8 bulb t5 with 6500k is 40k lumens, if these are 3k instead of 5k then that means theres only 24k lumens on an 8 bulb fixture. then that would explain some people having bad results....


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## milfblaster (Jan 8, 2012)

A lot of things could explain some people's bad results. Maybe a lot of people are growing that special strain that refuses to grow under metal halides, lol.



okthanks2 said:


> I have NEVER seen a plant that refuses to grow under 6500K lights alone. The OG has been about 4 times harder to grow than the BB, but it is sooooo worth every minute. I have read that a lot of people don't have much luck with the OG and only get small flowers (although high quality). I'm actually starting to understand the OG now and get what it wants. Pretty much you can NEVER say NO to OG or you will be ignored for a long time. LOVES being foliar fed, LOVES the Mg, LOVES the RED light, HATES being dry, HATES eating more than necessary, absolutely LOVES the 24 hour light cycle and HATES excessive blue light(seems strange but this strain would NOT grow under a hortilux blue 400w MH no matter how much I begged it to and no matter how little or much it ate!).


Thanks, this is pure gold.

But yeah, I think I see what you're saying. The wattage is all the same, do you gain in PAR what you lose in lumens? If the x on the graph is the nanometers, what is the y? Can you compare the y value from one manufacturers graph to another? I don't know


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## aoyanagi (Jan 8, 2012)

VHO = Very High Output. HO = High Output. HO fixtures are designed to run HO bulbs and get 5k lumens per bulb. VHO fixtures are designed to run VHO bulbs and get 7800 lumens per bulb by supplying more electricity to each bulb, sacrificing some effiency for more light output. You cannot put an HO bulb into a VHO fixture and have it run ok, it will get too much juice and burn out. You can put a VHO bulb into an HO fixture and it will run just fine and have about twice the bulb life as an HO would have. Individual unscrupulous manufacturers notwithstanding, why would a VHO bulb output less lumens in an HO fixture than the HO bulb would? Does not compute. ALL T5 bulbs useable in a T5 HO fixture should put out roughly 5k lumens, or am I completely wrong here? 

*Assuming a 4 ft fixture, numbers taken from industry standard for 4 ft fixture/bulb*

Edit: Much thanks to the unseen/unknown mod(s) who took the disruptive posts out. Back to some productive discussion, woot!


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

Arabic said:


> Lumens are more than what just humans see, I've got a light meter I can hold under my 1000w HPS and it'll read 150k lumens, like advertised.


I, respectfully, fail to see how this proves that "lumens are more than what just humans see"
the internationally recognized (derived) SI term, Lumens, is EXACTLY limited to what humans see.
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, and if so I really want to fix it, can you explain?
Thanks


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> *
> (MPP to lazy to change font/bold---this is why the pink bulb comments are asenine,
> 
> you want your pinky's to be there from the get go for best results. *


This is confusing, are you saying the pink bulbs are good or bad? It sounds like you are saying they are good and bad. I have been trying to figure out which bulbs to order but everyone keeps recommending a different one.

I don't see anyone talking about pink bulbs except for that okthanks2 jerk. Does that mean you support his pink bulb theory or are against it? (Sorry if you are actually okthanks2 under a different name. not trying to start any problem) I know that just because someone is a jerk doesn't make them wrong, but I still can't figure out which bulb is the right one.


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

Arabic said:


> Lumens are more than what just humans see, I've got a light meter I can hold under my 1000w HPS and it'll read 150k lumens, like advertised. It's nothing special either.. and I'm aware that this is better quality light but if it isn't outputting enough lumens (8 bulb t5 with 6500k is 40k lumens, if these are 3k instead of 5k then that means theres only 24k lumens on an 8 bulb fixture. then that would explain some people having bad results....


Lumens by definition is visible light. Its way of measuring what te human eye sees. My 1000 watt is a 150k lumens too. Your light meter measures visible light. Lumens pretty muxh are irrelevant. Plants only use 10% of the light we see or kumens. 

Lumens are like greek mythology to light. so I dont understand your logic either. for your meter to measure morevthan lumens it would be a radio spectrameter too. those run for like $8,000 for cheapest one.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 8, 2012)

BlueB said:


> This is confusing, are you saying the pink bulbs are good or bad? It sounds like you are saying they are good and bad. I have been trying to figure out which bulbs to order but everyone keeps recommending a different one.
> 
> I don't see anyone talking about pink bulbs except for that okthanks2 jerk. Does that mean you support his pink bulb theory or are against it? (Sorry if you are actually okthanks2 under a different name. not trying to start any problem) I know that just because someone is a jerk doesn't make them wrong, but I still can't figure out which bulb is the right one.


ok heres the story, one mans pink is another mans fuchsia...
so the "pink" bulb is a misnomer because many bulbs can "appear" to the eye to be a specific color but in reality are more different than they appear....
I use fiji purple (personal preference because in my own research they make for the only mixed bulb that has a large amount of red and blue...
I also use the UVL 75.25 for the perfect triband bulb.IMHO
red suns for flowering and a strong actinic bulb for vegging. like the 451 or Actinic or blue plus.
heres my theory and its proven science...
if you control the light your plants get IE (red)[redsun], (blue)[actinic], Mixed[75.25,fiji] 
you can easily replace a solid color for another color during the veg/bloom phase to suit your need and the plants needs.
now if you use all 6500k bulbs or a majority which one? theres well over 30 varieties from GE{Starcoat} to [Veg] bulbs all use different degrees of "white" or "triband" phosphors which is very hard to control what your plants want/need...
my method just allows you to create a growing environment that YOU the grower can adjust the amount and level of light including {UV/IR} which the plants need at different stages of development. if i use a strong atinic i dont "need" the triband 6500 and i dont create unnecessary light that the plant uses @ a less efficient level. sure plants can grow under incandecant light but you need TONS of it... why reate energy the plant doesent use? 
Now that being said it all depends on your setup, i would suggest a good actinic, UVL454 or actinic plus, a 75.25 or 1000k[less yellow/orange light than 6500k], a red& blue like the planta or the fuji purple... then throw in some red suns during veg and remove the actinics... now theres a caveat, and this is from a ton of research you can google. Actinic light/UV promotes resin production, this is a fact that has been tested and proven by many botanical studies... UV light is damaging to plants so in order to protect themselves plants produce defense mechanisms, and in cannabis research has shown resin glands o be created in abundance during the introduction of UV light.. if in doubt i suggest reading https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/452030-c-wiz-advanced-cannabis-lounge.html
CANNAWIZARD can attest to this phenomenon and has EXTENSIVE TESTING in this arena. HE also uses PAR LIGHTING in his grows as it ENHANCES his crop... take it for what its worth...
I have never and will never discuss yield, or growth or weight as this is not the place for that... I can attest and it has already been posted in this very forum that QUALITY has been increased using this method. Also I would like to mention that others have done comparisons with this method vs 1000W and 600W with great results, weight not included as 480W is not = 600W HID. But i would bet the Quality is better on the T5 end  and that is what were all trying to achieve..


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Very off topic here, but I asked in the seed threads with no help, if I order from Attitude and ask for re-packaging, how can I tell which is which if theyre not in breeder packs? If they send em in the wallet, are they labeled? PM me pls to help, I'm ordering later today  finally good genetics


I order from attitude they sent me seeds in the "wallet" attached to the breeders business card...
I personally will be ordering fron greenhouse next time as i dont trust this method.. greenhouse color dyes their seeds so you KNOW what your getting, i do however get the attitude seeds CDcollectors seeds like super lemon haze its a blister pack with 10 seeds neatly arranges in their own "bubble"


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Oh great, okthanks is back... Just another name for the ignore list, and a PM with a transcript of your contributions here sent to Potroast, have fun with a blocked IP


THANK YOU! i try to be nice to some people..


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

Thanks prof for reiterating all that, nice even for someone who is following you w/o trouble to have a rehashing. 
Since it wasn't re-addressed in the prof's last post but it was asked, you cannot simply compare the two light company's graphs, there are too many ways of adulterating the data and the most important piece (e, energy level) is totally missing and should be hard to derive. This is the piece that we wish we could just plug in (like the lumen number, would seem to imply an energy level but lumens don't even differentiate between different nm's anyways) and know how effective the light source really is. Again the PAR pdf posted earlier addresses the substantial difficulties in measuring PAR light and our best option without the indicated budget requirements for the radio spectrometer, is to compare eachother's results and try not to heavily modify techniques if we are expecting similar outcomes. 
However regarding comparing graphs, I would feel a little more comfortable comparing the graphs from the same company/relabeler's various offered products (I guess if they are all in the same product line) which is how we determine the piecemeal wavelength spectrums we want to create.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 8, 2012)

overTHEman said:


> Welcome, aoyanagi.
> 
> I believe that information comes from the following site: http://www.itgcchem.com/phosphor/phosphor.htm - correct? It's great to have you along. We'll both be waiting to hear from the experts on those phosphor blends!
> 
> ...


I have looked around and there are manufacturers... who for the right "minimum" order make all the bulbs you want.

PROBLEM 
minimum order 100k


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

blueb said:


> this is confusing, are you saying the pink bulbs are good or bad? It sounds like you are saying they are good and bad. I have been trying to figure out which bulbs to order but everyone keeps recommending a different one.
> 
> I don't see anyone talking about pink bulbs except for that okthanks2 jerk. Does that mean you support his pink bulb theory or are against it? (sorry if you are actually okthanks2 under a different name. Not trying to start any problem) i know that just because someone is a jerk doesn't make them wrong, but i still can't figure out which bulb is the right one.



heeeeessss baaaaaaccccckkkkk


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I order from attitude they sent me seeds in the "wallet" attached to the breeders business card...
> I personally will be ordering fron greenhouse next time as i dont trust this method.. greenhouse color dyes their seeds so you KNOW what your getting, i do however get the attitude seeds CDcollectors seeds like super lemon haze its a blister pack with 10 seeds neatly arranges in their own "bubble"


I like gypsy nirvana. Ive been using them for years. They carry all the seed companies too and for a good prices. But dont get it. Confused with nirvana shop. Those are 2 different boutiques. Ive ordered from both. Nirvana shop is muxh cheaper. But strains are just ok and they pass off some strains as others. Like their master kush is realky hindu skunk. Any way gypsy nirvana has every seed company in their boutique and they all have great strains.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

Im going attittude, 5 fem wembley + 5 fem pipi... + 10 fem freebies! promo until 4pm tomorrow. So Im going w tude  Prof w the wallet option, they're bagged and labeled? so I can tell them apart? I dont need breeder packs, just want them and want to know whats what. Tshirt, Wallet, candies??? best option from attitude? ordering tonite


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## milfblaster (Jan 8, 2012)

BlueB said:


> ...I know that just because someone is a jerk doesn't make them wrong...


[youtube]uQl5aYhkF3E[/youtube]


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 8, 2012)

i did the wallet and the seeds were in little baggies attached&labeled with stickers to the breeders cards..
i ordered god bud, super lemon haze, kandy kush, and sharks breath. all arrived all females.

Im looking to pick up some vintage strains anyone know a good place?
i want WhiteWidow#1
afghan
and pure sour diesel.(not vintage jsut damn hard to find)


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> ok heres the story, one mans pink is another mans fuchsia...
> so the "pink" bulb is a misnomer because many bulbs can "appear" to the eye to be a specific color but in reality are more different than they appear....
> I use fiji purple (personal preference because in my own research they make for the only mixed bulb that has a large amount of red and blue...
> I also use the UVL 75.25 for the perfect triband bulb.IMHO
> ...


I am familiar with Cannawizard's grows. He uses Kessil LED lighting as supplement. In your opinion would this work as a good veg setup for a 4 bulb system? 2 of the fiji and 2 of the red sun? I see that the red sun peak at 630nm, does anyone know what specifically this wavelength does for the plants? For instance, would 630nm be used more for veg and 660 be used more for flower? What would be a good ratio of each wavelength for veg? Same question for flower? I know these may be tough questions, but if anyone has an idea please do share.


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> i did the wallet and the seeds were in little baggies attached&labeled with stickers to the breeders cards..
> i ordered god bud, super lemon haze, kandy kush, and sharks breath. all arrived all females.
> 
> Im looking to pick up some vintage strains anyone know a good place?
> ...


Would be awesome to get some SOUR D!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It's clone only


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## pedro420 (Jan 8, 2012)

i wanted to get in on the licky 7 but couldnt get the money in time for the promo


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> i did the wallet and the seeds were in little baggies attached&labeled with stickers to the breeders cards..
> i ordered god bud, super lemon haze, kandy kush, and sharks breath. all arrived all females.
> 
> Im looking to pick up some vintage strains anyone know a good place?
> ...



Cali Connection is the only place that i know of that has anything close to sour d 

http://thecaliconnectionltd.co.uk/products.php



for white widow, greenhouse seeds has it and soma seeds has 2 white widow crosses. i think somas would be better. ive done his rockbud and lavender and wow.


https://www.seedboutique.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=18302&Name=SeedList-Green-House-Seed-Co-Fem-10-pack-White-Widow&Type=PD

https://www.seedboutique.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=18542&Name=SeedList-Soma-Seeds-Standard-White-Light&Type=PD

https://www.seedboutique.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=18543&Name=SeedList-Soma-Seeds-Standard-White-Willow&Type=PD



soma has afghan delight too. 



https://www.seedboutique.com/ProductDetails.aspx?ProductID=18524&Name=SeedList-Soma-Seeds-Standard-Afghan-Delight&Type=PD



I want to try soma citrilah and somango. I want to try the afghan delight too, but I already have afghani bullrider.


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Lumens by definition is visible light. Its way of measuring what te human eye sees. My 1000 watt is a 150k lumens too. Your light meter measures visible light. Lumens pretty muxh are irrelevant. Plants only use 10% of the light we see or kumens.
> 
> Lumens are like greek mythology to light. so I dont understand your logic either. for your meter to measure morevthan lumens it would be a radio spectrameter too. those run for like $8,000 for cheapest one.


In regards to the gro-lux type of plant grow bulb.
FROM ED ROSENTHAL
"Theoretically, these tubes should work better for growing plants than standard lighting tubes. However, some standard or regular fluorescent tubes used for lighting actually work better for growing plants than more expensive natural-spectrum tubes and gro-tubes specifically manufactured for plant growth. The reason is that regular fluorescent produce more light (lumens), and overall lumen output is more important for growth rate than a specific light spectrum. To compensate for their spectrums, use them in combinations of one "blue" fluorescent to each one or two "red" fluorescent (Box B)."
http://www.1stmarijuanagrowerspage.com/how-to-grow-marijuana.html#c5-3
section 5.3


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

AWWW MAAANNNNN!!!!!!!!
Don't mean to burst everyone's Fiji Purple bubble buttttttttt.....................looks like the Fiji's only have about 5% Red in them. They do appear really blue from photos I have seen so this does make sense. 

From Thomas.
"Particularly for reef aquariums this new T5 serves lighting as however lighting or as additive for the HQI. This new spectrum was tested and developed particularly for SPS. High life span, high-quality, German quality product. The tube has one approx. 5-6% red part."

http://www.zeovit.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-7829.html


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> ...soma seeds has 2 white widow crosses....


The Pipi Im getting is WW x PowerPlant  Ill admit Im total noob as far as genetics go (for now) but just thinking about it makes me all tingly!


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

BlueB said:


> AWWW MAAANNNNN!!!!!!!!
> Don't mean to burst everyone's Fiji Purple bubble buttttttttt.....................looks like the Fiji's only have about 5% Red in them. They do appear really blue from photos I have seen so this does make sense.
> 
> From Thomas.
> ...


How old is that thread? The one I found where it was Thomas himself posting, he stated that he had come up with a new spectrum for the fiji that is similar to a hagen bulb. The one I found was from 2006.


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## Calrt (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> How old is that thread? The one I found where it was Thomas himself posting, he stated that he had come up with a new spectrum for the fiji that is similar to a hagen bulb. The one I found was from 2006.


This is the same thread that you posted.


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> How old is that thread? The one I found where it was Thomas himself posting, he stated that he had come up with a new spectrum for the fiji that is similar to a hagen bulb. The one I found was from 2006.


Yeah man 2006


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

I haven't received an answer yet, but I was thinking of trying half Fiji Purple from this Korealn Zuchrt or however you spell it and from the UVL brand half Redsun. Would that cover all the spectrae?


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## hyroot (Jan 8, 2012)

Calrt said:


> This is the same thread that you posted.


I know. I was just reitterating it in comparison to what he found.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 8, 2012)

*these are my own words fyi, you have my permission to repost but with credit via link so the whole thread is cited etc (this has been a communal project, lead by respected members of the forum)*
Hey all this was originally just a pm I sent to undercover but he said it was helpful and I guess I can just copy it to here too, was trying to relax a bit before I posted more since I let someone I wont even mention get to me a touch.
So here ya go, 

Blue light:

Causes phototropism (plants grow towards it if there is a clear &#8220;area with blue&#8221; and &#8220;area without&#8221; they will favor the former. Provide enough and you have created an environment which may signal to the plant (via saturation, or oversaturation---yes it is possible to deliver too much light) that it should not/will not grow anymore. Because the ratio of &#8220;good quality light&#8221; (PAR) to infrared is known to bring about specific genetic expression changes (morphisms) such as generative expression, which we commonly call &#8220;flowering&#8221; (yes photoperiod does this too). I submit that these ratios, when changed, cause stress to the plants and the generative expression is a survival response to the stress.

_**edit** Also I've gone over lower canopy light before, and rehash it shortly but while I'm on generative expression and stress, think about what lower canopy light signals:
My flowers also don't get the wind. And all the good lookin females are up nude-sunbathing (RE: trichs as sunscreen) in the good quality light....
If this is a male, this could be the difference between survival or not. Anyone ever seen a male stretch? No doubt. Look at corn plants... holy cow! The Takeway from the edit---> ever heard of hermies? wonder if green light might trigger hermie response (+/- other stress factors withstanding)? don't we all..._

So two concepts for bulb selection, placement, and light management (reflection)

1) Photoperiod is what you are going to use to initiate generative expression, you do not need to change your bulb colors, like that pinky? Get it in there from the get go. There are links showing the light quality will effect gene expression of the plant later on. Drastic (not that 1-3 out of an 8 bulb setup is that drastic) changes should be assumed to disrupt the circadian rhythm of the plant and will be an additional source of stress.
2) Sun irradiance graph is essential (Wikipedia on sunlight) the upper line is higher atmosphere radiation, there is another for sea level. Most likely mountain strains expect something closer to the PAR ratios seen in the upper atmosphere light, moreso at least than the balance seen in sea level. I take this to mean that one may push the low nm light a bit more (as we all know the prof and others have cited the 1986-7 studies showing increase in cannabinoids resulting from UVb exposure) There are also solid links between plants with anthocyanin (red pigment) and increased flux capacity tolerance for blue light spectrum---they can handle more before becoming overloaded/oversaturated. Again back to the graph, certain compounds/elements absorb certain ranges, something you see in the difference between the sea level and the upper atmosphere light spectrum ratios (favoring the blue more in the upper atmosphere, more flat in the sea level). 2 things from this&#8212;sea level plants in addition to canopy filtering (only yellow/green/infrared gets through) have atmospheric filtering. So results seen with mountain strains are not consistent with others, and hybrids are a dice-roll depending on which sets of predetermined favored genes you draw (and are thusly expressed at the expected junctures) How do you take this info and maximize your efficiency in an indoor growing environment? You need to keep your reflectors close to the center of irradiation (tents work great for this), keep the lights close too---a PAR meter or even a photometer measuring lumens should help as you are trying to determine the general field of emission from the light and maximize your placement choice results, the photon emission &#8220;degradation&#8221; at measured distances could help you figure this out. After reflectors and light distance is in check, you will want to train your plant to maximize the different growing environment, luckily mountain strains are already genetically prepared for this&#8212;short veg periods, early quick flower, etc. Pick the line on the sun graph you want to emulate, combine single or select banded bulbs that get an average &#8220;unit&#8221; (light fixture) emission of the banding range you want and you are ALL SET FOR A PAR GRO BROTHA

Please hit me back with any questions,
MPP
edit:
this may help, if you can get to it:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/a3527u6018823x43/


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## BlueB (Jan 8, 2012)

So, does anyone think that 2 Fiji x 2 Redsun would work for a 4 bulb setup? I figure if the Fiji doesn't have much red in it then adding an equal amount of the redsun would make up for it, not sure.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 8, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> ... Pick the line on the sun graph you want to emulate, combine single or select banded bulbs that get an average &#8220;unit&#8221; (light fixture) emission of the banding range you want and you are ALL SET FOR A PAR GRO BROTHA ...



wait, are you saying that we can pick whatever bulbs we like to create a UNIQUE and INDIVIDUAL light spectrum based on our preferences and growing style, which means that by changing bulbs we can find what combination works best in OUR OWN situations? Genius!


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## pedro420 (Jan 8, 2012)

patient - that is a nice lil article you posted


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## mipainpatient (Jan 9, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> patient - that is a nice lil article you posted


the flux density 1?
Honestly I found that so long ago and so many other studies I found were because of that I just assumed everyone knew...been spending winter break wisely, piling up the archives....
check this out:
http://www.medicinalgenomics.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/The-Response-of-Terpenoids-to-Exogenous-Gibberellic-Acid-in-Cannabis-Sativa-L-at-Vegetative-Stage-2010.pdf
(I would hope I get some rep for it at least, even tho soliciting for it makes me feel odd)

and this is cool looking too!:
http://wpcontent.answcdn.com/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7c/Atmospheric_Transmission.png/300px-Atmospheric_Transmission.png

which if you can read the small font, makes this a fun read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh_scattering

my favorite part of which is the following:
For example, the major constituent of the atmosphere, nitrogen, has a Rayleigh cross section of5.1×10[SUP]&#8722;31[/SUP] m[SUP]2[/SUP] at a wavelength of 532 nm (green light).[SUP][3][/SUP] This means that at atmospheric pressure, about a fraction 10[SUP]&#8722;5[/SUP] of light will be scattered for every meter of travel.

and this part might address why you gotta have your stuff close, or reflectors close(r) 
The strong wavelength dependence of the scattering (~_&#955;[SUP]&#8722;4[/SUP]) means that shorter (blue) wavelengths are scattered more strongly than longer (red) wavelengths. This results in the indirect blue light coming from all regions of the sky. Rayleigh scattering is a good approximation of the manner in which light scattering occurs within various media for which scattering particles have a small size parameter.

All of which I will conclude for the night with by indicating that info like this is not what you life by, its what you use to DIAL-IN
Peace all_


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

thats also a good one ide add rep but i dont kno how to lol


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

do you guys think i could germ 5 babies under a 75w t5 untill they start to grow then put them under my 4foot 4 bulb or should i just put them under the 4 footer and when thry sprot keep it going 

im thinking under the 75w unill they grow a lil then put them under the 4 footer im going to be vegging for abot 20/4 because 2 of the 5 are autos and it says they do good under 20/4 but they do best on 24 or should i just go 24/0 untill autos are done and after the 2 moths the autos take tobe done would it hurt the outhers if i lowerd time sothey accualy have a dark phase before putting into flowering


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## mipainpatient (Jan 9, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> thats also a good one ide add rep but i dont kno how to lol


I myself only learned on this very thread only pages ago:



hyroot said:


> click on sherriff star next to where it says journal this post and the triangle is to report a post (hint hint)


TTFN


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## milfblaster (Jan 9, 2012)

I've read that black widow from Mr. nice is the real white widow. I have no idea but it's a good story. Might be worth looking into if you're on a widow quest.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 9, 2012)

FYI: I grow a lot of plants and have been playing a lot lately.

My magic blend that grows plants in veg like CRAZY is this.

8 bulb bad boy fixture

6500k
Fiji
6500
6500
6500
Fiji
6500
6500

Don't ask me why but this mix is growing my plants insanely fast. 

As for bloom, we shall see. Gonna mix things up this time around and do 8 LST'd plants under 2 8 bulb batboys with the following mix 

6500
Fiji
Red sun
Red sun
6500
Fiji
Red sun

We shall see!

Ps: my 6500's are some no name brand but they have been treating me great so far in Veg so I'm guessing they have a pretty decent spectrum that the plants are obviously "using"


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 9, 2012)

Also: I think the key to getting anything remotely acceptable for commercial growth using the T5 method is to keep a super even canopy so scrog or heavy LST is absolutely a recommend and also to keep the lights no more than 2-3" from the top of the canopy. That is working BALLS for me right now.


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## BlueB (Jan 9, 2012)

BlueB said:


> So, does anyone think that 2 Fiji x 2 Redsun would work for a 4 bulb setup? I figure if the Fiji doesn't have much red in it then adding an equal amount of the redsun would make up for it, not sure.


Anyone anyone?


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## okthanks2 (Jan 9, 2012)

I will try to answer your question since no one else is. Most of these people are to busy trying to get credit by posting information from scientific research that they find through google. It's practically plagerism. And NO ONE has even tested out the "scientific evidence" they want credit so much for on their own plants. They only want to "look" good for in front of their hommies.

So to answer your question, the Fiji bulb is meant for growing corals. That means it is mostly a BLUE bulb with some actinic and some higher nm blue. Corals CAN ONLY TOLERATE a small amount of RED light or they will start bleaching so there most likely is not very much RED in the FIJI bulb. The REDSUN bulb is a 630nm only bulb. Plants DO use this wavelength so I would say you are good to go on this one. If you are looking for the higher nm RED then use one of the PINK bulbs that I have mentioned earlier. The PINK bulbs provide plants with all the wavelengths they need except they don't contain much blue.


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## okthanks2 (Jan 9, 2012)

My current bulb configuration is 4 Ati Procolor (which is still available through Premium Aquatics), 2 REDSUN, and 2 Ati Blue Plus. So far everything is looking fine. Hope this will be a good base for you to find your own bulb configuration that works for you.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 9, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> ...This results in the indirect blue light coming from all regions of the sky. Rayleigh scattering is a good approximation of the manner in which light scattering occurs within various media for which scattering particles have a small size parameter.
> 
> All of which I will conclude for the night with by indicating that info like this is not what you life by, its what you use to DIAL-IN
> Peace all
> [/I]


Hmmm, something to think about. If you've ever seen red/blue led police lights, they can be level and evenly spaced on a light bar, but get far enough away and the blue lights always appear larger and on a slightly different plane/elevation... Blue is more easily scattered by the atmosphere. Just my observation. (again I'm not a cop, but you should still worry about me though lol)


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 9, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Anyone anyone?


No one is answering you because its easy to see through your BS. find a different thread to troll okthanks/superpar/blueb.

You made enemies here when you insulted mmj patients, and even if you contribute an intelligent post you prob won't get much love here after your previous displays.

Enough already


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## BlueB (Jan 9, 2012)

Huh? This is my only log on guy. Whats your deal?


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## mipainpatient (Jan 9, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Huh? This is my only log on guy. Whats your deal?


I believe ya
The bulb spectrum you are putting forth seems a little unbalanced to me as it wouldn't have enough blue/yellow and thus would be "poor quality" light by being unbalanced. Take a page from lucius and throw a 6500K in and you should be good, honestly i'd pitch a full red bulb if you had to pick one to drop, (having 1 bulb t5s units has really come in handy for me to supplement the larger units)
I, like lucius, can confirm great results from an arrangement like this:
coral 6500K
6500K coral
coral 6500K
6500k coral

(corals are coral wave) and yea I'm working with 2' bulbs, but I can put a gap in between my units without losing too much canopy coverage and the pair cover more than a 4' would in my particular setup. Also I was able to let my leaves touch the coral waves with no issues, maybe because I try to emulate mountain temperatures 
hope this helps ya blueb,
MPP


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## aoyanagi (Jan 9, 2012)

So, we've been talking about how expensive a radio spectrometer is and how it's the only way to actually measure PAR output (and I'm guessing actual radiant flux rather than lumen?) Has anyone tried contacting their local community college? I audited instrumental analysis for fun and used one fairly extensively, and it was only a 2 year Ag and Tech school. A botany professor would love to team up with a chemistry professor and help us with this, I'm pretty sure. They might even get to publish something from it. Just a thought, and one I'm going to explore right now. Off to call the college here in town!


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## BlueB (Jan 9, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> I believe ya
> The bulb spectrum you are putting forth seems a little unbalanced to me as it wouldn't have enough blue/yellow and thus would be "poor quality" light by being unbalanced. Take a page from lucius and throw a 6500K in and you should be good, honestly i'd pitch a full red bulb if you had to pick one to drop, (having 1 bulb t5s units has really come in handy for me to supplement the larger units)
> I, like lucius, can confirm great results from an arrangement like this:
> coral 6500K
> ...


I would really like to stay away from 6500K light if possible.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 9, 2012)

you may want to aim a little higher, I'm at a uni and have a prof who specialized in PAR and even he only has a "PAR" meter, havent identified it from the pdf I posted pages and pages ago, but I plan to when I see him next.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 9, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I would really like to stay away from 6500K light if possible.


advice is just that, take it or leave it. but I think I feel good still about giving it as my motivation is to be helpful.


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## BlueB (Jan 9, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> advice is just that, take it or leave it. but I think I feel good still about giving it as my motivation is to be helpful.


Thank you for your suggestion, it just seems that there are a lot of wasted lumens in the 6500K bulb, so I am trying to figure out how to get away from wasting any of the light since the T5 puts out so little already.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 9, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> I, like lucius, can confirm great results from an arrangement like this:
> coral 6500K
> 6500K coral
> coral 6500K
> ...



I would love to see some pics from you since you've been contributing so many articles Mpp!


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## PetFlora (Jan 9, 2012)

theexpress said:


> lol i mean... man... you couldnt have chosen a better name bro?


Here here! And one guy on another site , whose set up is fucking impeccable, calls himself Agent Smith! WTF?


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## PetFlora (Jan 9, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> So ive been asked several times... Can't change it to UNDERCOVER CrOP... Check my profile, I'm legit...
> Any help???


It stopped me from accepting you as a friend, but that was before I saw all your posts. I am known on other sites as Phat Nuggz. Only wish I could change it here


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## PetFlora (Jan 9, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> do you guys think i could germ 5 babies under a 75w t5 untill they start to grow then put them under my 4foot 4 bulb or should i just put them under the 4 footer and when thry sprot keep it going
> 
> im thinking under the 75w unill they grow a lil then put them under the 4 footer im going to be vegging for abot 20/4 because 2 of the 5 are autos and it says they do good under 20/4 but they do best on 24 or should i just go 24/0 untill autos are done and after the 2 moths the autos take tobe done would it hurt the outhers if i lowerd time sothey accualy have a dark phase before putting into flowering


One of the things I really like about the Quantum Bad Boy (8 bulb) is you can operate 2 bulbs at time (2-4-6-8 ). This allows me to veg under 84 watts. Saves money on electricity. As they get bigger, just add 2 bulbs at a time


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

if i hsd the money to get a 8 bulb badboy then i would i havr a strip t5 thats 75w and a 4ft 4 bulb thats aroung 250w (i think) ass i get more exp and save money im going to get as biv as i can tou fit in my tent but i think its onkhggonna be a 6 bulb


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

ive been looking at the quantom bad boys but im haveing trouble with this 

quantom bad boy 4ft 8 bulb?what are the dimensions 
quantom bad boy 4 ft 6 bulb ? what are the dimentions 

in thinking about the one im going to get in the future im leaning more toward the 8 bulb but space mite be a issue but i wont be buying for a wile cuz im curently trying to get my own house


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## aoyanagi (Jan 9, 2012)

Herp a derp. I never used a radio spectrometer. I used a mass spectrometer. Plus side is the science/math/engineering combined head professor at Podunk Community College wants to meet me tomorrow and look into a research proprosal to buy one now lmao. He's very interested in helping, so we shall see. But yah, no more posting before my second cup of coffee anymore.  /facepalm


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## hyroot (Jan 9, 2012)

Wave point emailed me back and basically said the ultra growth is not being sold in the U.S. Market. He did not answer any of my questions either.


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 9, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Wave point emailed me back and basically said the ultra growth is not being sold in the U.S. Market. He did not answer any of my questions either.


is there a way to 'dislike' a post???  heh


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## hyroot (Jan 9, 2012)

Maybe if everyone emails wave point , we can create a demand for it amd maybe they will bring it to the U.S.


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

couldnnt you just order from the csrier overseas


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## mipainpatient (Jan 9, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Thank you for your suggestion, it just seems that there are a lot of wasted lumens in the 6500K bulb, so I am trying to figure out how to get away from wasting any of the light since the T5 puts out so little already.


Anytime bro, I just object to the concept of "wasted" lumens as all visible light is involved in PUR (photosynthetically-USED-radiation) I know the PAR graphs make the yellow/green look insignificant, but if you have ANY KIND OF CANOPY AT ALL you will want them. see my earlier posts for why.
MPP


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## Calrt (Jan 9, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Maybe if everyone emails wave point , we can create a demand for it amd maybe they will bring it to the U.S.


Done!!!!!!


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## hyroot (Jan 9, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> couldnnt you just order from the csrier overseas


what is that?


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

wzvepoint emald you back and said they wasnt going to sell in u.s market 
then you said we should all email them and it might make ademand 

so couldcnt you just order the ultra growth when they come out over seas because i dont think the little group we got herewould make a demand for the bulb we woukd need a shyt ton of oeople to make a demand for a light company


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

well everyone i got good new today my tent is finaly in the eayafter waiting 2 weeks the kpeople finaly shipped it out today 

so now i got to start my babies and hopefully theyall spriut i dont want to loose any as they are the onky seeds i got and i cant aford to buy more at this time


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## hyroot (Jan 9, 2012)

I


pedro420 said:


> well everyone i got good new today my tent is finaly in the eayafter waiting 2 weeks the kpeople finaly shipped it out today
> 
> so now i got to start my babies and hopefully theyall spriut i dont want to loose any as they are the onky seeds i got and i cant aford to buy more at this time


Ok I didn't know if csrier was a typo or some place you knew about. I acfually googled it.


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

sorry man i ment carier lol i hate useing this keyboad on my tablet it glitches sometimes and spells weird thangs it has a mind of its own sometimes i think


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## BlueB (Jan 9, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> Anytime bro, I just object to the concept of "wasted" lumens as all visible light is involved in PUR (photosynthetically-USED-radiation) I know the PAR graphs make the yellow/green look insignificant, but if you have ANY KIND OF CANOPY AT ALL you will want them. see my earlier posts for why.
> MPP


I'm starting to believe this myself. After reading the article from Ed Rosenthal about lumens being more important than wavelength. It just makes sense that plants would prefer bright light over dim wavelength. Energy is energy after all.


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## BlueB (Jan 9, 2012)

My last post sounded kinda odd, but you should be able to catch my drift eh?


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## hyroot (Jan 9, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I'm starting to believe this myself. After reading the article from Ed Rosenthal about lumens being more important than wavelength. It just makes sense that plants would prefer bright light over dim wavelength. Energy is energy after all.


Theres a video somewhere on you tube where ed rosenthall is speaking at a convention. He talks about uv light and spectrum and he even says hes not sure when to use uv and for how long and doesnt know much about spectrum and hes learning with working with nasa at university of maryland and he eveb said that if led. Ould produce green and amber spectrums that they would be the best light of all. Rosenthall is an old grower and activist. He cofounded high times with kyle kushman. He does have a lot of experience wuth growing. Some of what he says is more opinionated than factual. So take his articles with a grain of salt.

Just from this whole t5 experience with 2 t5 grows just about done and using hid since the late 90's . From what ive seen first hand. Spectrum and par definitely triumph over lumens. I pull the same size buds under both lights. The t5 produces better quality.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 9, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Maybe if everyone emails wave point , we can create a demand for it amd maybe they will bring it to the U.S.


Im sure I could dig it up, but you should post their addy so we can all bombard them, Ill use 3 of my email accounts


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## hyroot (Jan 9, 2012)

[email protected]


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 9, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Im sure I could dig it up, but you should post their addy so we can all bombard them, Ill use 3 of my email accounts


I would think that its not because they dont want to sell in the US...
remember that our government uses tariffs and regulations to stifle competition with companies like GE.. by forcing companies to register their products with UL (underwriters Limited) so that their products meet certain guidelines,,, or in reality to prevent competition with corporate donors to political parties...  (go f*#@ yourself GE for not paying taxes!)
I know for a fact i can get those new bulbs AND could have them shipped overseas NO PROBLEM... someone want to order a CASE with me?
25 bulbs @ a time...
its called mailforwarding people  its how i order ALL KINDS OF GREAT SH[]T! that i cant get here in good ol USA!
http://www.mailnetwork.com/


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 9, 2012)

hyroot said:


> [email protected]


I found an article/record of US Patents being issued... May2011 wavepoint applied for and was granted a patent for their Ultra Growth bulb... so they have the US patent, maybe trademark issues in US? I just dont know why they wouldnt offer it here, it's not like shipping from overseas is prohibitively expensive (they ship rubber chickens here from china on ships) so its gotta be some restriction keeping them from selling em here, I dont see why they would voluntarily restrict their market/sales


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## overTHEman (Jan 9, 2012)

Hey PAR T5ers.

Salvaging as much of this grow as possible, things are well for the circumstances. ReefGeek sent a replacement Fiji and it should be here by Wednesday.

Week 7






...

Two votes for the CoralWave/6,500k combination? 

What would a red-dominant combination of the above look like? The pr0fesseur said that he "read somewhere that the RedSun shouldn't be used on the ends of fixtures". Does anyone have experience with this?

Would anyone be able to rate this combination: RedSun, 6,500k, CoralWave, RedSun? Or suggest a better red dominant CoralWave/6,500k combination?


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## hyroot (Jan 9, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I found an article/record of US Patents being issued... May2011 wavepoint applied for and was granted a patent for their Ultra Growth bulb... so they have the US patent, maybe trademark issues in US? I just dont know why they wouldnt offer it here, it's not like shipping from overseas is prohibitively expensive (they ship rubber chickens here from china on ships) so its gotta be some restriction keeping them from selling em here, I dont see why they would voluntarily restrict their market/sales


I saw that article too. I dont think it has to do.with trademark. Trademark is basically ownership of a name of a product or business. There are 2 types of trademarks. State and federal. State- only good in that state. Federal- good through out the U.S. Those dont hold up in other countries. Then theres trade mark laws in other countries but they only hold up in those countries.

Its probably a demographic. Thing. Or maybe its just teating an area for sales before expanding. Who knows really......


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## asdmo (Jan 9, 2012)

been following this thread for a while, just wondering what you guys think the best veg setup is. im going to try to order within this week.
fiji purple, actinic, 75.25, 454, fiji, actinic, 75, 454
or
fiji, redsun, super actinic, 75.25, fiji, 454, redsun, fiji 
or what else do you guys recommend??


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 9, 2012)

Just from this whole t5 experience with 2 t5 grows just about done and using hid since the late 90's . From what ive seen first hand. Spectrum and par definitely triumph over lumens. I pull the same size buds under both lights. The t5 produces better quality.[/QUOTE]

Post pics!


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## pedro420 (Jan 9, 2012)

hey everyone ive been looking at new quantum ballests and i got a few questions

my tent is 48/24/60
the 6 bulb is 46.25/18/3.5
the 8 bulb is 46.25/24/3.5

ive been trying to figure the best to put in my tent and was wondering if the 8 bulb would rub the sides sence they are both 24 inches wide or you all think it would be ok 

also ive read a bunch of posts where people have mentiond there bad boy has multiple switches for diff bulbs the systems at quantumhort.com only have 2 switches where did you guys find them with multiple switches 

thank you for help 
pedro


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## PetFlora (Jan 10, 2012)

I got my new Hanna pH meter. My reses were 2.9 - 3.0 OUCH. I am pretty sure the dying tip was a major reason (+ 1900ppms) for my BK-1 to decline so badly during flower. And for my new plants to be doing so poorly +new 4 seeds started on 1/1/12 not to get past crack stage. I changed the water they were soaking in this morning and I think they may begin to develop. 

I emailed wavepoint and ccd Kelly at AS. Hopefully she will provide mouth watering potential

Pr0f: I would mos def buy 8 bulbs


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## pedro420 (Jan 10, 2012)

im thinking about it but i dont kno if getting the 8 bulb would be a issue being that it is the same size as my tent in width 

sucks to hear bout the ph inthe res


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## Calrt (Jan 10, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> im thinking about it but i dont kno if getting the 8 bulb would be a issue being that it is the same size as my tent in width
> 
> sucks to hear bout the ph inthe res


Some of the 8 bulb fixtures are as small as 18" wide. I can't remember which ones...


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## Calrt (Jan 10, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I got my new Hanna pH meter. My reses were 2.9 - 3.0 OUCH. I am pretty sure the dying tip was a major reason (+ 1900ppms) for my BK-1 to decline so badly during flower. And for my new plants to be doing so poorly + 4 seeds (1/1/12) not to get past crack stage
> 
> I emailed wavepoint and ccd Kelly at AS. Hopefully she ill provide mouth watering potential
> 
> I would mos def buy 8 bulbs


I can't believe you didn't have a PH meter!


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## PetFlora (Jan 10, 2012)

Calrt said:


> I can't believe you didn't have a PH meter!


I DID have a meter. The probe died- slowly. Most likely, the readings were inaccurate for well over 2 months, and got worse over time. I was adding more and more acid, not thinking the probe was dying.


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## pedro420 (Jan 10, 2012)

the ones i found were 24 in wide if i could find a thinner one that would be great


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## aoyanagi (Jan 10, 2012)

Just got off the phone with the professor at my local school, he said if I had my fixtures and bulbs already I could bring them up today and he'd run home and get the special computer to run his meters and we'd have a spd for the Fiji and for what a PAR setup is actually outputting both in wavelength and radiant flux. W-2's hurry the heck up so I can order mah stuffs!


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 10, 2012)

wow that is awesome aoyangi! I love your spirit! =D


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## aoyanagi (Jan 10, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> wow that is awesome aoyangi! I love your spirit! =D


Well, no one else is going to do it for us, right? And I decided when I applied for my state medical license that I was going to put my ass where my head and heart are. The only way to get rid of a taboo is to openly and unashamedly discuss the topic and keep your cool / keep your side of the debate "clean." If this somehow results in my getting some time, well then I'll just go full activist. Putting a mom in jail for trying not to be a pilled-out zombie or neurotic hypervigilant meanie all the time SHOULD embarrass the powers that be.


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

There are a few things I need cleared up. Do I have this right? Lumen refers to only the visible spectrum? I thought lumen referred to the brightness of all light. So, how do you refer to the light intensity of the non-visible spectrum? Also, don't plants mainly use light within the visible spectrum? I thought the visible spectrum was between 380nm and 760nm. It makes sense to me that the brightness of a light source would determine the amount of energy or photons given off by that particular light source. I know it would take some precise measuring, but if a 6500K light produces let say 15,000 lumens and a PAR specific light produced only 1,000 lumens, I would think it would be safe to assume that the 6500K light would grow plants better due to the higher lumen factor.
Plants mainly use light within the visible spectrum as far as I can tell.
Wiki:
Electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength between 380 nm and 760 nm (790&#8211;400 terahertz) is detected by the human eye and perceived as visible light. Other wavelengths, especially near infrared (longer than 760 nm) and ultraviolet (shorter than 380 nm) are also sometimes referred to as light, especially when the visibility to humans is not relevant.

P.S. 
Wouldn't it be possible for a 6500K light bulb to have more PAR than another 6500K bulb? I thought the Kelvin representation was just an average of color temperature. So wouldn't it be possible for a 6500K bulb to have more blue and red light than let say green or yellow and it just happens to average out at the 6500K zone? For example, when I was at the aquatics store the other day I checked out some lights they had glowing in a few different aquariums. In one aquarium they had the Coralife Nutrigrow lights and in another they had the Zoomed Ultrasun lights. The Nutrigrows had far more pink and the Ultrasuns had far more blue. This was detectable by looking at them. The color difference was obvious, yet they are both listed as 6500K!!


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## mipainpatient (Jan 10, 2012)

BlueB said:


> There are a few things I need cleared up. Do I have this right? Lumen refers to only the visible spectrum? I thought lumen referred to the brightness of all light. So, how do you refer to the light intensity of the non-visible spectrum? Also, don't plants mainly use light within the visible spectrum? I thought the visible spectrum was between 380nm and 760nm. It makes sense to me that the brightness of a light source would determine the amount of energy or photons given off by that particular light source. I know it would take some precise measuring, but if a 6500K light produces let say 15,000 lumens and a PAR specific light produced only 1,000 lumens, I would think it would be safe to assume that the 6500K light would grow plants better due to the higher lumen factor.
> Plants mainly use light within the visible spectrum as far as I can tell.
> Wiki:
> Electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength between 380 nm and 760 nm (790400 terahertz) is detected by the human eye and perceived as visible light. Other wavelengths, especially near infrared (longer than 760 nm) and ultraviolet (shorter than 380 nm) are also sometimes referred to as light, especially when the visibility to humans is not relevant.
> ...


Ill start with the 6500K Yes, especially as bulbs can be referred to as 6500K and differ from even the average by admitting a CRI lower than 100 (highest I've heard of was 95 CRI on a CFL and 90 CRI on a t5) Lumens are visible light yes, but measured the way our eyes see. And if you look at the graph of EMrad that we can see, we disproportionately see/sense yellow/green more than the other bands of the spectrum. Meaning that a light that puts out 100 lumens could be putting out more PAR than another light that puts out 100 lumens, depending on the banding of the wavelengths. If the first (higher PAR) light is still putting out 100 lumens, you could safely come to the conjecture that it is actually putting out more total radiation in the visible light spectrum, just exceeding the output of the second bulb. Also, regarding UV, UVb that you want to target is actually in the 315nm range, but you only need a teeny tiny amount, in fact a UV diode or bulb that targets UVa will probably get you enough UVb to see results.
Also just because a wavelength falls in the "visible" range doesn't mean you can see it very well. The fact that we can see the colors of the t5 bulbs means (to me) that they must be putting out A LOT of it.
Hope some of this helps blueb,
MPP

edit:
this is totally crude, but maybe it explains my words in picture form:
http://ledgrowlightsreview.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/par-chart-compared-to-humans.png


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> Ill start with the 6500K Yes, especially as bulbs can be referred to as 6500K and differ from even the average by admitting a CRI lower than 100 (highest I've heard of was 95 CRI on a CFL and 90 CRI on a t5) Lumens are visible light yes, but measured the way our eyes see. And if you look at the graph of EMrad that we can see, we disproportionately see/sense yellow/green more than the other bands of the spectrum. Meaning that a light that puts out 100 lumens could be putting out more PAR than another light that puts out 100 lumens, depending on the banding of the wavelengths. If the first (higher PAR) light is still putting out 100 lumens, you could safely come to the conjecture that it is actually putting out more total radiation in the visible light spectrum, just exceeding the output of the second bulb. Also, regarding UV, UVb that you want to target is actually in the 315nm range, but you only need a teeny tiny amount, in fact a UV diode or bulb that targets UVa will probably get you enough UVb to see results.
> Also just because a wavelength falls in the "visible" range doesn't mean you can see it very well. The fact that we can see the colors of the t5 bulbs means (to me) that they must be putting out A LOT of it.
> Hope some of this helps blueb,
> MPP
> ...


I know what you are saying, the 6500K lights that came with my fixture look really green. And after a year they start to appear even greener. They are crappy chinese made lights. I think I'm going to switch to the Zoomed bulbs because of how blue they appear. Then I will add a bulb with more red in it. Any suggestions? Since the Zoomeds already seem to have a lot of blue, I don't think I will need any additional blue lights. It makes me think that an array of the Zoomed lights and some 660 LeD would be real nice.


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

As you can see, the Nutri grow lights have far more red and less blue in them compared to the Zoomed lights. Nice to know I am not imagining things! Maybe a combination of these 2 lights would be good for vegging? hmmmm
View attachment 1986346View attachment 1986347
P.S.
I just noticed that the Zoomeds even have a nice spike in the UVb region. That solves that problem!
P.S.S
The Zoomed Ultrasun lights have a CRI rating of 98!


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## aoyanagi (Jan 10, 2012)

VHO = Very High Output. HO = High Output. HO fixtures are designed to run HO bulbs and get 5k lumens per bulb. VHO fixtures are designed to run VHO bulbs and get 7800 lumens per bulb by supplying more electricity to each bulb, sacrificing some effiency for more light output. You cannot put an HO bulb into a VHO fixture and have it run ok, it will get too much juice and burn out. You can put a VHO bulb into an HO fixture and it will run just fine and have about twice the bulb life as an HO would have. Individual unscrupulous manufacturers notwithstanding, why would a VHO bulb output less lumens in an HO fixture than the HO bulb would? Does not compute. ALL T5 bulbs useable in a T5 HO fixture should put out roughly 5k lumens, or am I completely wrong here? 

*Assuming a 4 ft fixture, numbers taken from industry standard for 4 ft fixture/bulb*

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Blue B, disregarding the lumen/lux etc this is how all T5 fluoros work: Low pressure mercury gas fills a glass tube coated with some blend of phosphors. This gas is excited by electricity, causing one of it's electrons to jump up to a higher energy orbit, when it falls back down that energy is released in the form of a photon of UV light. This UV light strikes the phosphor coating, where it's energy is absorbed, again stepping up an electron to a higher energy orbit. When this electron falls back down, it will produce a specific wavelength of light depending on what phosphor it is. Therefore unless it's just a shoddy bulb to begin with ALL T5 bulbs in a HO fixture will produce the same number of total photons per watt, it's the electricity being fed in not what wavelengths the bulb emits. VHO, HO, actinic or grow labeled this is how they ALL work and why they should ALL produce the same number of photons per square ft UNLESS you have a bad/old bulb or ballast because they ALL feed the same energy in electricity into that mercury gas. The ONLY difference is the phosphor blend and what wavelengths are being emitted. 

If you really want to know more try looking up quantum flux, photosynthetic photon flux, and yield photon flux.


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## milfblaster (Jan 10, 2012)

The eye sees 555nm most efficiently. If you have an LED panel with 380nm UV in the mix, they look like they're burnt out.


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

aoyanagi said:


> VHO = Very High Output. HO = High Output. HO fixtures are designed to run HO bulbs and get 5k lumens per bulb. VHO fixtures are designed to run VHO bulbs and get 7800 lumens per bulb by supplying more electricity to each bulb, sacrificing some effiency for more light output. You cannot put an HO bulb into a VHO fixture and have it run ok, it will get too much juice and burn out. You can put a VHO bulb into an HO fixture and it will run just fine and have about twice the bulb life as an HO would have. Individual unscrupulous manufacturers notwithstanding, why would a VHO bulb output less lumens in an HO fixture than the HO bulb would? Does not compute. ALL T5 bulbs useable in a T5 HO fixture should put out roughly 5k lumens, or am I completely wrong here?
> 
> *Assuming a 4 ft fixture, numbers taken from industry standard for 4 ft fixture/bulb*
> 
> ...


Oh sure, that makes sense, they are all the same wattage so they all produce the same amount of energy. Thank you for clearing that up.


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

BlueB said:


> As you can see, the Nutri grow lights have far more red and less blue in them compared to the Zoomed lights. Nice to know I am not imagining things! Maybe a combination of these 2 lights would be good for vegging? hmmmm
> View attachment 1986346View attachment 1986347
> P.S.
> I just noticed that the Zoomeds even have a nice spike in the UVb region. That solves that problem!
> ...


I just want to re-post this so that everyone sees. I am really feeling this zoomed light. YeaYuhh!


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## overTHEman (Jan 10, 2012)

aoyanagi said:


> Just got off the phone with the professor at my local school, he said if I had my fixtures and bulbs already I could bring them up today and he'd run home and get the special computer to run his meters and we'd have a spd for the Fiji and for what a PAR setup is actually outputting both in wavelength and radiant flux. W-2's hurry the heck up so I can order mah stuffs!


aoyanagi! You're awesome! 

This community will greatly benefit from your contribution.


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

Here's a little teaser while we wait for the results for the Fiji Purple

His latest addition Fiji Purple was again a true innovation from Korallen-zucht
that has up to 6% red spectrum to mimic the natural sunlight & agitate color pigments
,for outstandingly amazing coral color & growth.
Here is the link, the paragraph is about half way into the article.
http://www.premiumaquatics.com/proline/T5promo.pdf

With only 6% Red, I don't think this would be a very good stand alone light. In another article it says these bulbs consist mainly of light under the 400nm range.

If I had to guess, the Fiji Purple is a 6500K daylight mixed with an Actinic. It will sure be interesting to find out where the red 6% peak.
My guess is the graph will be something like.......


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

Check this out.
I took a photo of a white wall with the light from my Spectra 100s LeD bouncing off of it.
I took another photo of the same wall with the light from the mixture of T5 lights I just got in the mail today.
I then cropped the photos down to just a small area on the wall to show the difference in color. It's almost the same.
Spectra 100s color:

Color from my T5 mixture:


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## TheHeathen (Jan 10, 2012)

Your picture there reminds me of an idea I had the other night when I first discovered this thread. I wonder if, theoretically, you could use a lcd display as a grow light. Program it to cycle through a sequence of colors mimicking par values. Just an idea.


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

TheHeathen said:


> Your picture there reminds me of an idea I had the other night when I first discovered this thread. I wonder if, theoretically, you could use a lcd display as a grow light. Program it to cycle through a sequence of colors mimicking par values. Just an idea.


That for sure is a unique idea.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 10, 2012)

TheHeathen said:


> I wonder if, theoretically, you could use a lcd display as a grow light. Program it to cycle through a sequence of colors mimicking par values.





pr0fesseur said:


> Nope most tv sets only produce 700 ft candles.. not even close to enough light
> some of the best projectors only produce 2500 lumens..


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

It sure would be an expensive light source


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## TheHeathen (Jan 10, 2012)

BlueB said:


> That for sure is a unique idea.


I think it could be worth a look. LCD's either use cfl's or led's as backlighting, with the led backlit displays topping out somewhere in the 175 watt range. A 40" LED/LCD could be had from walmart(I don't condone shopping there, just for the sake of argument.) for right around $350 plus tax. No bulbs to buy. I just don't know about the UV spectrum. Seems to me that it wouldn't be able to emulate it, which, from my meager understanding about light waves and how LCD's work, thats all it would be able to do with any color. Still, an interesting idea, I think.


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## TheHeathen (Jan 10, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


>


So, the idea has already been pondered here?


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## TheHeathen (Jan 10, 2012)

BlueB said:


> It sure would be an expensive light source


I don't think it would be any more expensive than buying a quality fixture and subsequent bulbs. Not saying it would work...


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## BlueB (Jan 10, 2012)

I have no idea if that idea has been brought up before or not, I just joined this forum a couple days ago. I think you would have to design your own super bright LCD screen. Why not just go LeD? It would probably be cheaper. Still a cool idea though.


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## reactiv8ion (Jan 10, 2012)

I would like to use an 18" fixture as opposed to a 24" fixture due to space contraints. Not much bulb selection for the 18". Would it be ok to run 2x 454 and 2x Red Sun, in a blue/red/red/blue setup?


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## Calrt (Jan 10, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I DID have a meter. The probe died- slowly. Most likely, the readings were inaccurate for well over 2 months, and got worse over time. I was adding more and more acid, not thinking the probe was dying.


ahhh, this makes more sense, bummer though!


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 10, 2012)

aoyanagi said:


> Well, no one else is going to do it for us, right? And I decided when I applied for my state medical license that I was going to put my ass where my head and heart are. The only way to get rid of a taboo is to openly and unashamedly discuss the topic and keep your cool / keep your side of the debate "clean." If this somehow results in my getting some time, well then I'll just go full activist. Putting a mom in jail for trying not to be a pilled-out zombie or neurotic hypervigilant meanie all the time SHOULD embarrass the powers that be.


You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to aoyanagi again!


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 10, 2012)

reactiv8ion said:


> I would like to use an 18" fixture as opposed to a 24" fixture due to space contraints. Not much bulb selection for the 18". Would it be ok to run 2x 454 and 2x Red Sun, in a blue/red/red/blue setup?


1x454 1x75.25 2xred sun


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 10, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I have no idea if that idea has been brought up before or not, I just joined this forum a couple days ago. I think you would have to design your own super bright LCD screen. Why not just go LeD? It would probably be cheaper. Still a cool idea though.


LED TV are only BACKLIT with LED... so it doesent work...


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 10, 2012)

BlueB said:


> There are a few things I need cleared up. Do I have this right? Lumen refers to only the visible spectrum? I thought lumen referred to the brightness of all light. So, how do you refer to the light intensity of the non-visible spectrum? Also, don't plants mainly use light within the visible spectrum? I thought the visible spectrum was between 380nm and 760nm. It makes sense to me that the brightness of a light source would determine the amount of energy or photons given off by that particular light source. I know it would take some precise measuring, but if a 6500K light produces let say 15,000 lumens and a PAR specific light produced only 1,000 lumens, I would think it would be safe to assume that the 6500K light would grow plants better due to the higher lumen factor.
> Plants mainly use light within the visible spectrum as far as I can tell.
> Wiki:
> Electromagnetic radiation with a wavelength between 380 nm and 760 nm (790400 terahertz) is detected by the human eye and perceived as visible light. Other wavelengths, especially near infrared (longer than 760 nm) and ultraviolet (shorter than 380 nm) are also sometimes referred to as light, especially when the visibility to humans is not relevant.
> ...


*Black Body Radiator (Degrees Kelvin)*
The Kelvin rating of a light bulb can be misleading depending on the type of bulb. A black body will radiate at ALL wavelengths. The amounts at each wave length may be high or so low it is immeasurable but all wave lengths are emitted from a black body. Incandescent lights and the sun both represent a black body well in that ALL wavelengths are emitted. With these types of light one can measure the energy out put at two points in the light spectrum (normally near red and blue) and calculate the Kelvin rating.







Fluorescent lights as well as all gas discharge style lamps do not fit in this category. These have an interrupted spectrum. Light is not emitted at all wavelengths. There can be sections of the spectrum missing or there can be large spikes at various wavelengths. Since the Kelvin rating refers to a black body it does not accurately apply to fluorescent or gas discharge lamps. In the past, lighting companies used to use the term Apparent Color Temperature meaning that the color appeared to be at a particular Kelvin but was in fact a little off, due to the interrupted spectrum. This term was replaced with Correlated Color Temperature (CCT) and soon lighting companies just used the term Kelvin to refer to a lights apparent Kelvin rating.


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 10, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> *Black Body Radiator (Degrees Kelvin)*
> The Kelvin rating of a light bulb can be misleading depending on the type of bulb. A black body will radiate at ALL wavelengths. The amounts at each wave length may be high or so low it is immeasurable but all wave lengths are emitted from a black body. Incandescent lights and the sun both represent a black body well in that ALL wavelengths are emitted. With these types of light one can measure the energy out put at two points in the light spectrum (normally near red and blue) and calculate the Kelvin rating.
> 
> 
> ...


AND for this reason I DO NOT LIKE 6500k bulbs...
FOR YOU OKTHANKS2


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## BlueB (Jan 11, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> *Black Body Radiator (Degrees Kelvin)*
> The Kelvin rating of a light bulb can be misleading depending on the type of bulb. A black body will radiate at ALL wavelengths. The amounts at each wave length may be high or so low it is immeasurable but all wave lengths are emitted from a black body. Incandescent lights and the sun both represent a black body well in that ALL wavelengths are emitted. With these types of light one can measure the energy out put at two points in the light spectrum (normally near red and blue) and calculate the Kelvin rating.
> 
> 
> ...


They should have labeled the Zoo Med Ultra Sun bulbs 8500K or 10000K because they appear way more blue than that chart shows. Sure is confusing how they label them now. So does the CRI rating of 98 mean anything good for these lights? Or is that another meaningless number for growing pakalolo? What do you think of the lights I am using in my sig, will they be a good mixture?


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## BlueB (Jan 11, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> LED TV are only BACKLIT with LED... so it doesent work...


No, I was trying to humor the lad by saying go LeD grow light instead of trying to invent an LCD tv light for grow.


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## PetFlora (Jan 11, 2012)

aoyanagi said:


> Well, no one else is going to do it for us, right? And I decided when I applied for my state medical license that I was going to put my ass where my head and heart are. The only way to get rid of a taboo is to openly and unashamedly discuss the topic and keep your cool / keep your side of the debate "clean." If this somehow results in my getting some time, well then I'll just go full activist. Putting a mom in jail for trying not to be a pilled-out zombie or neurotic hypervigilant meanie all the time SHOULD embarrass the powers that be.


Your mistake here is assuming that they have hearts. They "may" when they get in office, but it is soon taken out (ala Dick Cheney). These people eat their young


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## TheHeathen (Jan 11, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> LED TV are only BACKLIT with LED... so it doesent work...


Why the emphasis on back-lit? I'm not sure that I understand. The light is refracted through an LCD panel(which was my initial query, not specifically about LED's, all LCD's are back-lit, whether by led or cfl array), which I'm sure diminishes it somewhat, but I'm sure that a decent sized monitor, like a 20" could produce enough light to grow a single plant. My question is if the colors would come out right. I'm going to see.


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## TheHeathen (Jan 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> No, I was trying to humor the lad by saying go LeD grow light instead of trying to invent an LCD tv light for grow.


I got your lad hanging right here.


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## PetFlora (Jan 11, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What do you think of those videos I just posted Professeur using all 1 type of bulb?


I bought 8 each Quantum G/B bulbs when I bought my light. That first crop was all males so I killed it. I then found Pr0fs thread and never tried sticking with Q bulbs. Very enlightening (NPI)


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## BlueB (Jan 11, 2012)

Would my sig be a good mixture for lights? I'm getting ready to start some cuts I got from the local dispense. Want to make sure.


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## aoyanagi (Jan 11, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Your mistake here is assuming that they have hearts. They "may" when they get in office, but it is soon taken out (ala Dick Cheney). These people eat their young


Heh, that's what people told my grandmother when she helped found the ARC. It is no longer societally acceptable to lock your mentally/physically handicapped child(ren) in the basement and beat them in the head with 2x4s. My grandfather once spent christmas day locked up because he'd dressed up as a vietnamese peasant and feigned death on the white house lawn. It's in my blood. I won't say anything if someone insults me because I don't care. I leap into the fray to stand up for someone else's rights though. Gotta work on doing on my own behalf more often.


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Would my sig be a good mixture for lights? I'm getting ready to start some cuts I got from the local dispense. Want to make sure.


Looks good to me BlueB... let us know how that works out!


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## BlueB (Jan 11, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> Looks good to me BlueB... let us know how that works out!


Sure will! I have never tried out these types of lights before so nothing like tossing all the eggs into one basket! I may get some of those Ultra Sun lights for backup. Those cuts were not easy to come by.


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## PetFlora (Jan 11, 2012)

Kelly from AS has investigated. The rep tells her Ultra Grow Waves are "Coming Soon" whatever that means


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## reactiv8ion (Jan 11, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> 1x454 1x75.25 2xred sun


These are my options for UVL 18" t5ho: Actinic White, AquaSun, Indigo Sun, Super Actinic, and obviously 454 and red sun. What is my best option for the 4th bulb?


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## Beeobee (Jan 11, 2012)

WOW 225 pages how many people are using this method? 
I read most of this post, but skipped the middle a little bit, to much bickering

anyone have a journal of there work with just T5's?
peace


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## hyroot (Jan 11, 2012)

Be my friend


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 11, 2012)

lol that just made me smile!  its not _all_ negativity here


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## pedro420 (Jan 11, 2012)

hey everyone after all the problems i have been haveing im finaly under way with my new grow 

I have a journal in my sig but I started a thread also cuz I don't kno much about doing journals I don't even think I started this one correctly lol 


I'll be happy to answer any questions tho and I'm always open to information


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> They should have labeled the Zoo Med Ultra Sun bulbs 8500K or 10000K because they appear way more blue than that chart shows. Sure is confusing how they label them now. So does the CRI rating of 98 mean anything good for these lights? Or is that another meaningless number for growing pakalolo? What do you think of the lights I am using in my sig, will they be a good mixture?


that chart is just an illustration (approximation)and not reality...


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## tehshyt (Jan 12, 2012)

prof, I know you had some mishaps with the mites and po po before. Are you growing anything with these t5's currently?


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## Redoctober (Jan 12, 2012)

Today I substituted a Zoomed Ultra Sun for a Flora Sun in my veg mix. I was kinda thinking that it was a similar spectrum to most 6500K's which people have reported good results with. I immediately noticed that within an hour, the leaves stood up, reaching for the light. I had seen this in some early pics on this thread. I interpret this type of phototropism as a good thing, though I suppose I could also take it to mean that the plants are reaching upwards because they are deprived of something. I cannot speak for any increase in growth yet because it's only been about 12 hours since I stuck it in, and it's only 1 bulb. 

I think those including 6500K type spectrum in veg might be onto something. Not entirely sure about flower. I know that the pr0f doesn't really care for those bulbs, and I understand why, but I can't argue with what I have observed. I will update more about the growth as time passes. In looking at the spectral graph of the Ultra Sun (much like the 6500K) it does seem to be less than optimal. In fact, as far as PAR goes, it wouldn't even make my top 10 list. So it is a bit counter intuitive that this bulb would trigger any kind of growth surge or provide any benefit at all in the face of all these other superior PAR bulbs. Yet of all the combinations I have tried, it was this bulb that made the leaves stand up. Perhaps it is only one peak in there that is causing that to happen, and maybe this peak is also present in some of the other T5's I haven't tried e.g. 75.25, Fiji, 454. This might explain why others experienced this phenomenon. I'm not sure what it is about the Ultra Sun that the plants seem to like (or hate depending on how you interpret phototropism), but it has clearly elicited a response from the plants. 

I'm not advocating these bulbs...not yet anyway; just thought I'd note the observation.


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## BlueB (Jan 12, 2012)

This probably doesn't help that much, but I found a program to analyze the color mixture of the Fiji Purple light. It's just a basic RGB program, but here are the results anyway,

I'm not sure how it works, but it is still interesting. I think it could be useful for trying to find a general red to blue ratio. I wonder how it will compare to the actual spectral analysis if it ever gets here. Here are the values for the Red Sun light,

Here are the values for the ATI Blue Plus,

Here are the values for the UVL Super Actinic,

Here are the values for the Zoo Med Flora Sun,

And finally here are the values for the Zoo Med Ultra Sun 6500K,

This is the actual color of the light reflecting off a white surface. I was surprised to see that some red light registered in the UVL Super Actinic, therefore I question the accuracy. I think it gives a general idea though.


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## PatientNo.420 (Jan 12, 2012)

I read an ok portion of this post but it is quite long and a lot of useless info as stated above (along with a lot of useful info) so I still haven't caught what the best mix is? My website is www.thebushdoctors.com and I run the Quantum 16 bulb units with their bulbs. I am planning on purchasing 2-4 of their 12 bulb units very soon and this post caught my eye (particularly because I'm a big LED advocate and am in talks with one atm) so I'm looking for some help in finding out what is going to give me the best results? 

I'm not even sure if I will be gaining any yields if I were to not run the Quantum bulbs. Their peaks listed on their website don't seem to be to too far off and they have a spike in the green as well. I have grown denser nugs than HPS with them on multiple occasions and pulled down some impressive yields so I'm still skeptical about not running the Quantum bulbs. Now I do understand though that any energy used to produce white light is for the most part wasted so I still have hope that my spectrum can be improved. 

Any help is greatly appreciated.


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## BlueB (Jan 12, 2012)

Here is an example of a color mixture where I think this program could be more useful.
Mixture of 8 tubes. 4 Red Sun, 2 Fiji Purple, 2 Super Actinic

The color square to the right is how the color looks to the camera. The analysis is the breakdown of red green and blue of that color square.


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## BlueB (Jan 12, 2012)

Here's where it starts to get a little bizarre.

Combination of 4 Red Sun and 4 Super Actinic

As you can see, the program says that when combining these two lights together it actually makes more green with a higher contrast value than replacing two of the actinics with two fiji purples as shown previously, which according to the color analysis the fiji purple has a lot more green in it than the super actinic. I am guessing the reason why the camera is picking up red in the super actinic is because of the extremely low wavelengths. Perhaps the super blue frequency is messing with the way the camera is detecting the light inside the camera?


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## PetFlora (Jan 13, 2012)

Looking at the RGB graphs, I can't help but wonder whether RGB relates to NPK and the ~ 60/40 blend of lights for veg and flower


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## PetFlora (Jan 13, 2012)

*Pat420* Very nice idea with the videos, but damn, why that choice of music? It's very DIS harmonious to my ears, and probably to the plants


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## PatientNo.420 (Jan 13, 2012)

I honestly hope my grow isn't given biased views and that I'm not judged by the music I listen to especially because I listen to a wide variety of music (no hostility here, just clarifying). I grew up with a strong hip-hop/rap influence so I listen to it daily because I love the beats (used to produce) and some of it is inspiring as well. Music was not intended to be in the video though, first day recording with a new phone and I couldn't find the audio mute button for the camera. I can't seem to find anywhere in the video editing on YouTube that allows me to mute it, obviously I'm going to have to figure out something as your not the first who has commented on the music, haha. 

To the plants though, I can't say as the SLH are liking the music (they were donated to me so they had issues to begin with) but the rest hear it everyday with no complaints as of yet. That room is about to be done for a while anyways, it needs to be remodeled and the HID is hopefully gone for good. I'll keep them around as extra lights but I'd like to have T5's or LED in their place. I yield within a half oz per plant (almost everytime) of my HID yields per plant with the Quantum setup so just switching to them with their bulbs seems to be reason enough but with a better spectrum it could be better than LED as well. However, I can't seem to come to the conclusion as which combination of bulbs is going to be the best yield/quality combo. I notice different people are running different combinations.

Has anyone who has ran these bulbs on here been able to hit 4+ ounces in 3 gallon pot with these bulb configurations?


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## ohiogrown03 (Jan 13, 2012)

@patient - Well I know I won't hit the 4 mark this time, but I'm pretty sure it will be 3+ this was my first grow and used t5 and, for a little bit, a 400hps(for about three weeks during start of flower, wanted to test an old ballast to make sure it was reliable, but didn't want to just waste the lumens i was paying for!) Anyway, it should be done in 2-3 weeks. Well that's what i've said for the past 3 weeks straight anyway. I don't want to rush it and had a little spider mite problem about 5 weeks ago that stunted the new bud growth, and my orgranic pepper spray mixture burned 75% of the hairs and turned them red (duh shouldn't have done it under the light, but it was my first time and didn't think it through properly). Long story short there was a 2 week total stretch there about 5 weeks ago that no real progress was made it seems, but it rebounded great since and is full of white hairs and buds are plumping up nicely. I have noticed maybe 5-10% of the hairs are starting to orange/redden as of last night. I'll try to get some pics before the weekend is up and see what you guys think. I just hope they will frost up some more, i dried about a 1/2 dried branch that broke off during a move and it turned out not too bad, taste isn't great yet, hay still. 

While I won't hit 4+ this time, it was my first go, I had some issues. Had a rough childhood, i left literally forgot about it outside behind a shed from june until sometime late semptember and it rained a ton here with not much sun this summer anyway it had flowered when it was about 6 inches tall and had just 1 tiny but on top, so i chopped the top off and revegged for about 2-3 months to get the small bush thing i got out of it. It was a seed of good genetics, just can't remember what it was that was given to me, i had it for two years before popping it. So we will see what the finally tally is here in month or so. damn that seems so long from now........


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## hyroot (Jan 13, 2012)

PatientNo.420 said:


> I honestly hope my grow isn't given biased views and that I'm not judged by the music I listen to especially because I listen to a wide variety of music (no hostility here, just clarifying). I grew up with a strong hip-hop/rap influence so I listen to it daily because I love the beats (used to produce) and some of it is inspiring as well. Music was not intended to be in the video though, first day recording with a new phone and I couldn't find the audio mute button for the camera. I can't seem to find anywhere in the video editing on YouTube that allows me to mute it, obviously I'm going to have to figure out something as your not the first who has commented on the music, haha.
> 
> To the plants though, I can't say as the SLH are liking the music (they were donated to me so they had issues to begin with) but the rest hear it everyday with no complaints as of yet. That room is about to be done for a while anyways, it needs to be remodeled and the HID is hopefully gone for good. I'll keep them around as extra lights but I'd like to have T5's or LED in their place. I yield within a half oz per plant (almost everytime) of my HID yields per plant with the Quantum setup so just switching to them with their bulbs seems to be reason enough but with a better spectrum it could be better than LED as well. However, I can't seem to come to the conclusion as which combination of bulbs is going to be the best yield/quality combo. I notice different people are running different combinations.
> 
> Has anyone who has ran these bulbs on here been able to hit 4+ ounces in 3 gallon pot with these bulb configurations?





looks good. I think petflora was more talking about the sound quality. yeah that was horrible. Im a hip hop /reggae head and an audio engineer and beat producer too. so i listen to everything. Ive been digging for samples lately listening to alot of o.v. wright and nina simone, even pulled some sergio mendez and boston samples too earlier. i couldn't handle that static


Ive been hitting about about an 1 oz to 1.5 oz. but my strains are pure or mostly indica. Sativas yield much more but take so much longer. I have one sativa dominant hybrid that I got around 50g to 70 g per.. that one takes forever to veg so the biggest i ever got it was 2 feet. its also not by best strain so i dont do it as much as the others i shim off any lower growth that does not get light .i do that too to get the bigger buds., that might make a smaller yield maybe....


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 13, 2012)

Nepaljam x Oaxaca said:


> follow the link-
> 
> x-nutrients
> http://www.xnutrients.com/index.php?option=com_chronocontact&chronoformname=SamplePackRequest2
> ...


 free shit ya"ll!


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 13, 2012)

Added a repti-glo 10.0 for UVb... 26w cfl, in a 5" reflector about 12" away... for the full light cycle 12 hrs a day... will let ya'll know what kinda response I get.

day34 12/12 unknown indica


BUD PORN!!!!


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## Redoctober (Jan 14, 2012)

Woah! Those leaves have a really interesting look to them. Almost a wet, slick, plastic type of texture. Never seen anything like that before. Do you think that's a characteristic of the strain you're growing or is it a byproduct of the T5's?


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## PetFlora (Jan 14, 2012)

PatientNo.420 said:


> I honestly hope my grow isn't given biased views and that I'm not judged by the music I listen to ..."
> 
> I would PM you, but I guess you don't have enough posts yet.
> 
> ...


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## falcon223 (Jan 14, 2012)

I love you man. But hate your music. That is just me, I feel honesty is best. If you got a bad hare cut would you want every one to say that looks good, when it looks like sh*& ??? 

But you know what you like, and that is all that matters. 


Well on to growing. I finally got my refund from Hydro Galaxy. And have a 4 foot 8 bulb fixture coming. should be here Tuesday. 
The red sun bulbs I ordered are on back order. Should ship on Tuesday. 
I will post pics of the light when I get things set up.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 14, 2012)

Redoctober said:


> Woah! Those leaves have a really interesting look to them. Almost a wet, slick, plastic type of texture. Never seen anything like that before. Do you think that's a characteristic of the strain you're growing or is it a byproduct of the T5's?


I think the T5s def help overall, but I cant compare to anything but bullshit mexican bagseed sativa, so I don't know if other indicas are like mine (ive suspected it may be bluecheese which is popular here now) I know shes not like any other plant I've had before  I did just mist her, but otherwise she is a beautiful deep green, not a single spot of burn or deficiency anywhere, as healthy/happy as can be. The twisting leaves are from low humidity I believe (under 20% at highest) but she doesn't seem to suffer. Shes my first quality stain, but hopefully I should have a good selection soon


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## BlueB (Jan 14, 2012)

Redoctober said:


> Today I substituted a Zoomed Ultra Sun for a Flora Sun in my veg mix. I was kinda thinking that it was a similar spectrum to most 6500K's which people have reported good results with. I immediately noticed that within an hour, the leaves stood up, reaching for the light. I had seen this in some early pics on this thread. I interpret this type of phototropism as a good thing, though I suppose I could also take it to mean that the plants are reaching upwards because they are deprived of something. I cannot speak for any increase in growth yet because it's only been about 12 hours since I stuck it in, and it's only 1 bulb.
> 
> I think those including 6500K type spectrum in veg might be onto something. Not entirely sure about flower. I know that the pr0f doesn't really care for those bulbs, and I understand why, but I can't argue with what I have observed. I will update more about the growth as time passes. In looking at the spectral graph of the Ultra Sun (much like the 6500K) it does seem to be less than optimal. In fact, as far as PAR goes, it wouldn't even make my top 10 list. So it is a bit counter intuitive that this bulb would trigger any kind of growth surge or provide any benefit at all in the face of all these other superior PAR bulbs. Yet of all the combinations I have tried, it was this bulb that made the leaves stand up. Perhaps it is only one peak in there that is causing that to happen, and maybe this peak is also present in some of the other T5's I haven't tried e.g. 75.25, Fiji, 454. This might explain why others experienced this phenomenon. I'm not sure what it is about the Ultra Sun that the plants seem to like (or hate depending on how you interpret phototropism), but it has clearly elicited a response from the plants.
> 
> I'm not advocating these bulbs...not yet anyway; just thought I'd note the observation.


I have done quite a few light mixtures with the so called PAR only arrangements and have never found a mixture of light that really make the plants take off. I believe I have done every arrangement possible. The lights that I found to produce the really amazing growth have been the Ultra Suns mixed with the Flora Suns in a 50/50 mix. I've been going back and forth between the fiji purples and red suns and blue bulbs and whenever I switch back to the Ultra sun/Flora sun arrangement the plants perk back up reaching for the light again. I've tried the Ultra suns by themselves and the Flora suns by themselves and it doesn't work as well until they are mixed 50/50. They designed the Flora sun bulb around what a plant needs. Why would they have put that green/yellow spectrum in there if plants didn't like that type of light? The people making the bulbs are the ones that really know. They are the ones that have spent days and days testing and retesting their products.

*I would like to see some other people try out this florasun ultrasun 50/50 mixture and compare their results.

When you guys post photos of your plants, would you pleeeeease take the photos under regular lighting? Turn your grow lights off and turn on a regular white light so that the plant can show it's true colors. The plants always look different under red and blue light alone. I found that plants always look dark green under the red/blue lighting even if they are actually yellowing and unhealthy. *


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## falcon223 (Jan 14, 2012)

BlueB, Where did you get your bulbs at? If it is ok to ask? I don't recall seeing a ultra sun, or Florasun.
Are they 4 foot bulbs? 

Thanks.


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## falcon223 (Jan 14, 2012)

Wow they look great. I cant Wait to get my light set up. You have some of the biggest buds I have seen.


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## BlueB (Jan 14, 2012)

Hey, I found this statement a little interesting,
*Spectrum Deficiency*​ *A low Red to Far Red or a low Blue to Red ratio spectrum can induce an overall shade-type growth response in a wide range of species, characterized by general elongation, a response normally allowing plants to reach above near by plants. *​ *Spectrum deprived conditions, reduced growth and photosynthesis when plants are grown under only red light, (or too much red light?) can be can be reversed by adding sufficient green light to the spectrum. The PLS lights have sufficient Green to compensate.*​ *Informed by that article in: *  The Oxford Journal

Its a webpage talking about sulfur plasma lighting I believe.
http://www.grow-light-source.com/SULPHUR_PLASMA_LIGHTING_SYSTEM-PLS_by_LG.htm

Maybe this is why there was reduced growth without the UltraSuns? I believe that scientific research still has a long way to go when it comes to what types of light plants really like the most. Sure has been an exciting journey so far! I've seen the research, I've seen the studies that have been done about the middle part of the visual spectrum (mainly green 500-550nm) not really contributing to photosynthesis, but from my latest findings it doesn't really add up.

Here is the RGB ratio from the UltraSun/Florasun 50/50 mix that has been working so well,

The amount of red is still slightly dominant over the amount of blue and there is quite a bit of green in there but still less than red and blue. 
I've got a couple more different types bulbs on the way to see if I can increase the amount of red and blue together over the amount of green. I don't want to increase or decrease the amount of green, but I would like to increase the amount of red and blue to see how the plants respond when that is done.​


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## mipainpatient (Jan 14, 2012)

Yea those guys (grow light source) sell the induction light I'm looking at, also some dialed in LED units that supposedly have been widely tested. Nice quote on the spectrum deficiency stuff, in so many words that's what I've been trying to say. The high yellow-blue of HPS (traditional, not blue blended obviously) spectrum output ratio compensates for the lack of PAR by providing what amounts to "adequate" intensity/quality lower canopy light. By my understanding because so much of plant evolution has been spent under the canopy of other (as likely their own species as not) plant's leaves, that is why the PAR to near/far IR ratio stuff is so important even at low levels because that may be all you get under the canopy. Your stunted plant is for lack of a better description, a happy plant. Just like people tho---keep em too happy and they may not reach their full potential.....Need is the driving piston of innovation.
Sorry if this isn't contributing, I'm having an evening off and wanted to respond despite potential incomprehensibility.
Ciao,
MPP


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## BlueB (Jan 14, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> Yea those guys (grow light source) sell the induction light I'm looking at, also some dialed in LED units that supposedly have been widely tested. Nice quote on the spectrum deficiency stuff, in so many words that's what I've been trying to say. The high yellow-blue of HPS (traditional, not blue blended obviously) spectrum output ratio compensates for the lack of PAR by providing what amounts to "adequate" intensity/quality lower canopy light. By my understanding because so much of plant evolution has been spent under the canopy of other (as likely their own species as not) plant's leaves, that is why the PAR to near/far IR ratio stuff is so important even at low levels because that may be all you get under the canopy. Your stunted plant is for lack of a better description, a happy plant. Just like people tho---keep em too happy and they may not reach their full potential.....Need is the driving piston of innovation.
> Sorry if this isn't contributing, I'm having an evening off and wanted to respond despite potential incomprehensibility.
> Ciao,
> MPP


I get what you are trying to say. I think that is what Ed Rosenthal was trying to say in his book. I believe what he was explaining was that let say you have a light that puts out 40,000 lumens with low PAR, and a light that puts out 5,000 lumens with high PAR, the brighter light would do a better job even though it does not put out a specific wavelength.


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## hyroot (Jan 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I have done quite a few light mixtures with the so called PAR only arrangements and have never found a mixture of light that really make the plants take off. I believe I have done every arrangement possible. The lights that I found to produce the really amazing growth have been the Ultra Suns mixed with the Flora Suns in a 50/50 mix. I've been going back and forth between the fiji purples and red suns and blue bulbs and whenever I switch back to the Ultra sun/Flora sun arrangement the plants perk back up reaching for the light again. I've tried the Ultra suns by themselves and the Flora suns by themselves and it doesn't work as well until they are mixed 50/50. They designed the Flora sun bulb around what a plant needs. Why would they have put that green/yellow spectrum in there if plants didn't like that type of light? The people making the bulbs are the ones that really know. They are the ones that have spent days and days testing and retesting their products.
> 
> *I would like to see some other people try out this florasun ultrasun 50/50 mixture and compare their results.
> 
> When you guys post photos of your plants, would you pleeeeease take the photos under regular lighting? Turn your grow lights off and turn on a regular white light so that the plant can show it's true colors. The plants always look different under red and blue light alone. I found that plants always look dark green under the red/blue lighting even if they are actually yellowing and unhealthy. *




question - how have you done so many light combinations so quickly and already came to conclusions..... ? When a week ago you were asking what bulbs to use.......

if you are doing multiple comparisons You would need to run several batches with different bulb combos at the same time. it would still be 3 or 4 months to you would see any final results. you would have to to do at least 2 or 3 batches under one combo just to makes sure you get the same results in case of outside factors.

Im not knocking you its just that your experimenting seems quite a bit premature. Ive done 6 months of par lighting. still switching bulbs around and yet no final conclusion..... im going with my next light 3 redsun, 1 coral wave, 4 coralife coloramax (unless the ultra growth comes out). it will be another 6 months til i know if i like that combo more than what I already have.

I have found that 2 coral waves is too much infrared for one fixture. towards the end im seeing some heat burns on the leaves. my room is always at 74 degrees. thats happened on every batch so far. that much heat radiating from infrared can diminish yield too.


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## falcon223 (Jan 15, 2012)

Yep, It is a trial and airer thing. We seem to to be at the point of looking for more bulb choices. 
I like hearing about what is working and what is not. I have been buying bulbs while waiting for my fixture. So I will 
have several bulbs to try.


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## PetFlora (Jan 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Here she is a few weeks from harvest time.
> View attachment 1997834View attachment 1997835View attachment 1997836


FYI: My plant leafs reach for the light, and I do not *yet* have the Ultra/Floros. _They also were reaching when I only used Quantum grow bulbs_


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 15, 2012)

If youre running a certain array of bulbs over seedlings and theyre growing slowly, then you switch tubes and they take off, they may have simply established their roots and had a growth spurt... Plants utilize different wavelengths at different stages of growth. Switching tubes every two weeks will show nothing scientific, will only prove that the tubes you use aren't harmful. The only way to prove a tube combo is superior would be to use it for the full length of veg (or a complete grow would be even better). Then grow the same strain under a different combo and observe the difference (size/development at the same age). I had plants right next to each other, same strain/age/conditions, one would be reaching for the light one day then relaxed the next, while the plants right next to it would be the opposite. I'll never suggest a superior combo cuz its may be different for everyone depending on conditions/strain/desired results at harvest (quality for med, yield for cash). It takes quite a while to be able to observe a specific response to a change in the lighting. 

I had a flowering female that sprouted bananas so I pulled he/she, put it in the garage and forgot about it for like 2 weeks. Complete darkness for 2 weeks and the leaves were barely even drooping. Actually looked pretty healthy, with no light for 2 weeks. Something to think about.


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## BlueB (Jan 15, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> FYI: My plant leafs reach for the light, and I do not *yet* have the Ultra/Floros.


What is your current mixture of light bulbs if you don't mind me asking you?


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## BlueB (Jan 15, 2012)

I have already switched back to the 50/50. I can just tell that the plants like it better. It really must have something to do with the strain why everyone else has been getting results with the other bulbs. I'm going to stick with the 50/50 through the rest of the grow. I can't afford to risk losing the new cuttings I've taken. The growth rate I'm getting has just been phenomenal to say the least so why change?


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## BlueB (Jan 15, 2012)

Anyone know what is going on with this leaf? A few of my plants have some leaves like this. I thought it might be a high pH issue with some new soil mix I was trying recently. Maybe it is a heat issue? It's only on the midsection fan leaves. I've posted in the Plant Problems thread, but no one knows over there.


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## hyroot (Jan 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Anyone know what is going on with this leaf? A few of my plants have some leaves like this. I thought it might be a high pH issue with some new soil mix I was trying recently. Maybe it is a heat issue? It's only on the midsection fan leaves. I've posted in the Plant Problems thread, but no one knows over there.
> View attachment 1999831


That looks like either too much heat or some nutes got spilled on it.


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## hyroot (Jan 15, 2012)

When leaves are reaching upwards that means tue stomatas have opened up more than usual and they are absorbing more light. Thats a very good thing. It makes for faster veg time.


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## falcon223 (Jan 15, 2012)

Looks like you spilled some ferts on the leaves.


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## BlueB (Jan 15, 2012)

hyroot said:


> When leaves are reaching upwards that means tue stomatas have opened up more than usual and they are absorbing more light. Thats a very good thing. It makes for faster veg time.


It sure seems like it! I've taken the Blue Plus back out now, 4 hours later the leaves are reaching up again. I sure don't get this, I thought the added blue light would make them grow even faster. It really must be the strain because this particular one can't get enough of the 50/50.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I get what you are trying to say. I think that is what Ed Rosenthal was trying to say in his book. I believe what he was explaining was that let say you have a light that puts out 40,000 lumens with low PAR, and a light that puts out 5,000 lumens with high PAR, the brighter light would do a better job even though it does not put out a specific wavelength.


I agree that Ed was making the point you just made yea. But "better job" is the subjective part. I have very good understanding of the quality limitations of HIDs and I assure you PAR approach will produce the finest medicine possible (not the MOST as with many industries/processes, quality/quantity ratio is a choice not an obligation) for the least Kwatts, something that matters more to some of us than others as electricity rates vary greatly from region to region. Although I don't believe the disclaimer is 100% necessary but here it is:
assuming EVERYTHING ELSE is dialed in you should see a dramatic improvement in "quality" both medicinal compound content and terpenoid content from dialed in Red/Blue/UV/IR spectrums, which may even just involve supplementing your HID with some side-riding t5 units. There are tons of possible DIY units and daisy-chain units that you could integrate into ANY setup.
The point is that you are using hard science (PAR has lots of great research behind it) to dial in your personal results, which is hopefully what you are here for.
Not at all tryin to rip into ya, if it sounds like I'm ranting its to reiterate points for the benefit of anyone who comes across our shared work of art (thread).
Also remember this, if your area is large enough (or your reflective surface is far enough away) you could have the baddest-ass HID in the 'hood but its a point source light so its an uneven distribution with losses literally floating through the air (air-light scattering) 
Also again, before you start trying to dial in your yields ANY other way, do a run in a 5gallon+ smart pot and see what you get.
Word,
MPP


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## PetFlora (Jan 16, 2012)

BlueB said:


> What is your current mixture of light bulbs if you don't mind me asking you?


UVL Aqua Sun + ATI Aquablue Special + UVL Red Life + ATI Aquablue Special + Red Life + Coral Wave + Quantum Grow + Quantum Flower. I just swapped out a second Coral Wave for the Quantum Flower, as it seemed to be bleaching the leafs and my 3ed Red Life died, limiting my choice


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## PetFlora (Jan 16, 2012)

hyroot said:


> When leaves are reaching upwards that means tue stomatas have opened up more than usual and they are absorbing more light. Thats a very good thing. It makes for faster veg time.


DM sells Liquid Light and Saturator (expensive combo) foliar feeds that react the same way


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## hyroot (Jan 16, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> DM sells Liquid Light and Saturator (expensive combo) foliar feeds that react the same way



Liquid light...... Yeah I've used that before. I was the guinea pig for my local shop. It works really great but you have to buy that penetrator or saturator depending on where you buy it. Seen with either labels. I think they changed the name at one point. and mix them and spray every other day. I went through it in a month. It works great and I definitely saw a positive difference but it costs way too much. Liquid light - $60, Penetrator - $50.you have to use up the whole mix you make. Once it mixes together. It starts breaking down rather quickly.


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## MurshDawg (Jan 16, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Liquid light...... Yeah I've used that before. I was the guinea pig for my local shop. It works really great but you have to buy that penetrator or saturator depending on where you buy it. Seen with either labels. I think they changed the name at one point. and mix them and spray every other day. I went through it in a month. It works great and I definitely saw a positive difference but it costs way too much. Liquid light - $60, Penetrator - $50.you have to use up the whole mix you make. Once it mixes together. It starts breaking down rather quickly.


 You can sub out wet betty, Humbolt sticky, or any other "wetting agent". That saves you a little scratch... I had to get DM reverse because I had a plant hermie on me. I subbed out saturator for wetbetty (had it on hand anyways). It worked remarkably!


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## ohiogrown03 (Jan 16, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Anyone know what is going on with this leaf? A few of my plants have some leaves like this. I thought it might be a high pH issue with some new soil mix I was trying recently. Maybe it is a heat issue? It's only on the midsection fan leaves. I've posted in the Plant Problems thread, but no one knows over there.
> View attachment 1999831


agreed, I'd lean towards heat because I had the same thing a little over a month ago. When i got solution on them it bleached it white more than the yellow/brown


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## pedro420 (Jan 16, 2012)

hey everyone 

my babys are a week old at midnite do you think they are strong enough to go under the 4fter yet or should I wait untill they are 2 Weeks


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## overTHEman (Jan 16, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> hey everyone
> 
> my babys are a week old at midnite do you think they are strong enough to go under the 4fter yet or should I wait untill they are 2 Weeks


My personal rule of thumb is to wait until the second set of 5 fingered leaves are visible before changing anything about the plant's environment. Opinions will vary here but if you think they're old enough - go for it!

...

*Week 8*

Here's the latest: the end of the lifecycle of Ms Headband is approaching, phew. As this is a new experience and things have gone horribly awry, harvesting anything from this plant will be deemed a huge success.









Happy PAR Growing.


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## pedro420 (Jan 16, 2012)

i just dont think they are getting the light they need i have 5 seedlings under a singly 75w t5 
they are all vigerous lil boogers except for the shy one who still has her seed shell but she is just as tall as the outhers


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## MurshDawg (Jan 16, 2012)

Here's some a little update on my end


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## hyroot (Jan 16, 2012)

Wood chop wood chop chop


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## falcon223 (Jan 17, 2012)

Pedro, you do need more light then that. If you move to the big light , don't put them to close. you can over do it.
Just keep an IE on them.


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## falcon223 (Jan 17, 2012)

My light fixture will be here to day. Some of the bulbs I ordered are on backorder.
One thing you learn with this hobby is patience's.


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## falcon223 (Jan 17, 2012)




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## pedro420 (Jan 17, 2012)

falcon - thank you I didn't think they were going to be getting enough lightbut i also know not to over due it with light when they are this young


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## hyroot (Jan 17, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> i just dont think they are getting the light they need i have 5 seedlings under a singly 75w t5
> they are all vigerous lil boogers except for the shy one who still has her seed shell but she is just as tall as the outhers


I would stick with the 75 watt. I use a 54 watt for my seedlings and to root clones. It takes longer yes. But seeds and clones neee minimal light. if you add too much light , it could be to intense amd kill them. Plus adding extra light an heat can lean them towards being male. Low wattage and cool temps and low humidity for seedlings will almost guarantee female. I have never had a male in all my years. Once the roots have establishes themselves ( 2 or 3 new nodes). Then add more light. Keep temps cool.


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## pedro420 (Jan 17, 2012)

hyroot - the temps have been around 68 max 62 lowest humidity is around 50/55 all the time I think I'll go with my original plan to transplant after they are 2 Weeks today they are only 1 week old 

I kno it's not much yet but you can check out my grow I'm my sig if you wanna kno nething


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 17, 2012)

NEw T5 grow on Youtube today

[video=youtube;itKbUHuAEE8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=itKbUHuAEE8&amp;list=UUm986eT9vJ0zYyz1Cb-UurQ&amp;index=2&amp;feature=plcp[/video]


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## tehshyt (Jan 17, 2012)

found a replacement for the 454



Behold! The Giesemann POWERCHROME Actinic Plus:


Its a little more expensive. But NOT on back order =D


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## falcon223 (Jan 17, 2012)

I got my fixture today and put in the bulbs I had on hand. I got this on amazon and it came with 6500 bulbs. Got free shipping and I 
paid $198.00 . Looks good to. 
Pedro I pop my seed under 200 WATS t8. I do get a lot of males though.


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## falcon223 (Jan 17, 2012)

Oh yea I think we need to remind everyone about waring eye protection. This light really messed with my eyes.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 17, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> found a replacement for the 454
> View attachment 2003350
> 
> 
> ...



nice bulb you have there


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## PetFlora (Jan 18, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Liquid light...... Yeah I've used that before. I was the guinea pig for my local shop. It works really great but you have to buy that penetrator or saturator depending on where you buy it. Seen with either labels. I think they changed the name at one point. and mix them and spray every other day. I went through it in a month. It works great and I definitely saw a positive difference but it costs way too much. Liquid light - $60, Penetrator - $50.you have to use up the whole mix you make. Once it mixes together. It starts breaking down rather quickly.



Once they are mixed you can extend life ~ 7 days by keeping it in the fridge


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## BlueB (Jan 18, 2012)

Did the spectral analysis for the Fiji Purple today.
Here it is finally!
Enjoy,


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 18, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Did the spectral analysis for the Fiji Purple today.
> Here it is finally!
> Enjoy,


+rep!!! How did you get it done? (out of curiosity)


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## BlueB (Jan 18, 2012)

My old physics teacher uses a spectrometer in his lab. The readings above 740nm is just noise so you can ignore that. So basically it is an actinic/blue light with a touch of red. No 660nm though.


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 18, 2012)

BlueB said:


> My old physics teacher uses a spectrometer in his lab. The readings above 800nm is just noise so you can ignore that. So basically it is an actinic/blue light with a touch of red. No 660nm though.


awesome! thanks for doing this... did you read any other bulbs? I confess that I am curious how your spectrometer results compare to published spectrum graphs =D


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## falcon223 (Jan 18, 2012)

Well darn, I got two Fiji purple and 3 red sons coming Friday. And I want bulbs for flower. I guess I will keep the Fiji for spear bulbs.


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## BlueB (Jan 18, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> awesome! thanks for doing this... did you read any other bulbs? I confess that I am curious how your spectrometer results compare to published spectrum graphs =D


I didn't have a reason to, although it did cross my mind. It was hard enough just to get the one graph. He is an extremely busy guy! The spectrometer is a really simple instrument. Small box that attaches to a computer on one side and a fiber optic sensor on the other. The sensor looks like a little maglite flashlight.  It would be cool to own one. I really wanted to do an analysis of my entire mixture of bulbs, but like I said, we are really lucky to even have this one.


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## BlueB (Jan 18, 2012)

I like the fact that the Fiji is an actinic/blue mixture. One less bulb to have to add (blue bulb). I think a good flower mixture would be something like 2 Fiji, 4 Flora Sun and 2 Red Sun. Keep your Fiji's man don't sweat it.


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## Redoctober (Jan 18, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Did the spectral analysis for the Fiji Purple today.Here it is finally!Enjoy,View attachment 2005223


Bellissimo!!! Finally we know about the elusive Fiji! You should email Korallenzucht them and tell them that you're going to send this graph UVL, ATI, and Wavepoint so they can all make bulbs that will crush the Fiji sales! That's what they get for being so dickish about not releasing their sacred spectral graph.

Incidentally, how expensive are those spectrophotometers anyway? All I've seen are the $200-$400 Apogee ones, and I don't know how good they are? Plus those are PAR meters so I'm not sure if they give a similar readout graph like what you were able to generate.


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## aoyanagi (Jan 18, 2012)

To add to the helpfulness of BlueB's research here's a cut-n-paste of my email and reply to Wave Point. Hyroot, was this your doing? I did cut out my email and full name for safety's sake, more from an old stalker than police worries.

PS - for those in the know about it, I'm currently doing my happy chicken dance! 

Dear Cheryle,

Sorry to get back to you late.
Yes, we do have this Ultra Cola bulb. And it was developed specifically by special request.
We can get you samples of this bulb right after our factory come back from vacation. If you would like, let us know the quantity you desire, and we will get this bulb to you sometime in mid to late February.
I can quote you price based upon the quantity you are looking for.

By the way, we can also develop special spectrum at your desire.

Please let us know how we can further assist you.

Thank you.

Yu Ling

Wave Point Technology
Fax: (805) 388.9532
*www.wave-point.com


From: [mailtoyahoo.com] 
Sent: Monday, January 09, 2012 10:05 AM
To: [email protected]
Subject: ULTRA GROWTH/Ultra Cola bulbs


I don't know of any delicate way to put this so here goes. You are making an incredibly smart business decision. The name of the bulb in your distributor section tells "us" that you know who will really be buying these bulbs, and we've been waiting awhile now for a manufacturer to realize that growers who shun HID lights will pay a premium for a PAR T5 bulb with that 660nm spike for chlorophyll A. But, I'm curious as to how you'll be able to keep them the same price as your other bulbs given that magnesium arsenate phosphor is generally more expensive than other phosphors? "We" will react VERY badly if the teaser graph on your site showing that 660nm spike is a lie. On the other hand "we" will run you dry of stock continuously if it's true, and pay a premium even. Oh, and don't forget the infrared and UV portions of the PAR spectrum! You will not be able to keep these things in stock if the graph that was up then taken down was true. I'm even so excited about it I'd also like to know if you're a publicly traded company and what exchange if you are, as I'd like to buy some stock I can see it soaring in the near future. 



Also, any chance to be put on a waiting list for first dibs when they do come in? I want I want I want. 



Thank you for your time, I look forward to seeing your business thrive~!



Cheryle 
*


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## hyroot (Jan 19, 2012)

woot woot.


maybe, I sent them several emails stating that there is a huge untapped market for the 660nm bulbs, etc....... They only replied to me that one time so it is possible, i know several other people emailed them too.


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 19, 2012)

the future's so bright, i gotta wear shades


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## asdmo (Jan 19, 2012)

hyroot said:


> woot woot.
> 
> 
> maybe, I sent them several emails stating that there is a huge untapped market for the 660nm bulbs, etc....... They only replied to me that one time so it is possible, i know several other people emailed them too.


Yo hyroot looks like they're finally granting your wish!!! Lets all celebrate!!!!


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## falcon223 (Jan 19, 2012)

we all need to send them a message. get the ball rolling. Lets use the power of the INTERNET.


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## Calrt (Jan 19, 2012)

*Day 38 Update Week 6 

Side by side comparison. 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast in one tent and T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 3 Red Suns, 4 Flora Suns, 1 420 in the other. Same nutes, close to the same temps as I can. The HPS is running away with yield at this point, I would say about twice the size..... This is my first grow as well....*

The T5 side is a little smellier and darker green, but nowhere near as dense.


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## poind3xter (Jan 19, 2012)

Calrt said:


> *Day 38 Update Week 6
> 
> Side by side comparison. 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast in one tent and T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 3 Red Suns, 4 Flora Suns, 1 420 in the other. Same nutes, close to the same temps as I can. The HPS is running away with yield at this point, I would say about twice the size..... This is my first grow as well....*
> 
> The T5 side is a little smellier and darker green, but nowhere near as dense.



480w vs 600w. Of course the HPS is going to win yield-wise. The T5 quality, however, will be better than the HPS.


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## tehshyt (Jan 20, 2012)

poind3xter said:


> 480w vs 600w. Of course the HPS is going to win yield-wise. The T5 quality, however, will be better than the HPS.


Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 48'' t5 bulbs are 54watts each
54 X 8 = 432watts

The badboy is using about 28% less watts than the 600w
(Also, Carlt - do you have to use a more powerful fan/cooling system for your 600w fixture? If so, how many more watts does that consume than the fan used for the t5)

Regardless, twice the yield seems like an incredible difference. I know pr0fessor mentioned quality over quantity.... But I'm interested to hear how pr0fessor and other supporters of the PAR technique would explain these drastically different results..

If the PAR t5 is supposed to give more available light to the plant, then why would the plant not grow as vigorously? Anyone?


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## poind3xter (Jan 20, 2012)

T5's are not going to penetrate to the same degree that HPS would. I didn't get my yield up until I was running 864W of T5 and then LST/Scrogging. I also keep my T5's 12-18 inches away to help light penetration. Using this method, at least right now is going to give up some yield. The benefits are less heat, lower energy consumption and higher quality bud. It's a trade off to be sure, but it's a trade I'd make every time...

...at least until induction lighting and/or led becomes cheaper and better suited to plant growth. I really feel induction lighting has awesome potential.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 20, 2012)

Calrt said:


> *Day 38 Update Week 6
> 
> Side by side comparison. 600w air cooled HPS eye Hortalux with a digital ballast in one tent and T5 Bad Boy 8 bulb with 3 Red Suns, 4 Flora Suns, 1 420 in the other. Same nutes, close to the same temps as I can. The HPS is running away with yield at this point, I would say about twice the size..... This is my first grow as well....*
> 
> The T5 side is a little smellier and darker green, but nowhere near as dense.


how much CO2 are you running in the tents? keep it at 1500 under the T5's and they should take off.


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## PetFlora (Jan 20, 2012)

*Carlt: *I am thinking you are missing that bit of green spectrum that supercharges chlorophyll production. I think someone posted spectral graphs for these bulbs, some ~ 10 pages back, so you can thumb through. Also, you might have your T5s too far away (inverse square law) but in the end the 600 may be just that much stronger.

Apparently not . Maybe drop one of the Red Suns for another FloroSun


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## tehshyt (Jan 20, 2012)

poind3xter said:


> T5's are not going to penetrate to the same degree that HPS would. I didn't get my yield up until I was running 864W of T5 and then LST/Scrogging. I also keep my T5's 12-18 inches away to help light penetration. Using this method, at least right now is going to give up some yield. The benefits are less heat, lower energy consumption and higher quality bud. It's a trade off to be sure, but it's a trade I'd make every time...
> 
> ...at least until induction lighting and/or led becomes cheaper and better suited to plant growth. I really feel induction lighting has awesome potential.


You're absolutely right. I had not considered it, but it doesn't look like Carlt is using any method of canopy control, which could explain a lot.


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## BlueB (Jan 20, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the 48'' t5 bulbs are 54watts each
> 54 X 8 = 432watts
> 
> The badboy is using about 28% less watts than the 600w
> ...


I would also like to add that even though the 4ft T5 bulbs emit 54 watts or whatever of light, they are not emitting from a single point light source like HPS bulbs do. Therefore the intensity is going to be much much less. The light is spread out across a 4ft area. Moving the plants closer to the T5s will make up for the lack of intensity. I just flipped one of my plants under 2 red sun, 2 fiji, 4 flora sun to 12/12. Will see how the buds compare to my monsters under the HPS. Unfortunately all my monster buds got pollenated. The cutting I got must have been a mutant. I'm not sure what they are doing over seas with these strains, but it sure has been creating a lot of hermies. I'm off to go search for a cutting that is pure 100% female. No more of this mutant hermie trash. It's possible the HPS had something to do with the pollenation so if it happens under the T5 I know that it was just a trashy cut. I'm pretty down about it because the one plant I had flowered got a LB off of it. Now it is riddled with tiny hard seed crap.


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## pedro420 (Jan 20, 2012)

blue - wow that realy suks to hear about the mutant messin up your crop like that 

im hopeing the 5 I just started a week ago are all fem if not I'm gonna have some crazy bud turn out of seeds cuz they are all different strains


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## poind3xter (Jan 20, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> You're absolutely right. I had not considered it, but it doesn't look like Carlt is using any method of canopy control, which could explain a lot.


Yep. In no way would I ever do a T5 grow and not use some form of canopy control.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 20, 2012)

poind3xter said:


> T5's are not going to penetrate to the same degree that HPS would... I also keep my T5's 12-18 inches away to help light penetration....


umm I dont even keep my HPS at that distance. Get yer T5's down to 2inches above the highest top and see about yield then. You could have 2k watts of T5 but if they're too far away, the energy that his the plants is about as strong as a cfl... get em right down on your tops and you wont have to worry about penetration. Everyone worries about penetration... If you have a HPS with a single point of light, a single large fan leaf can block a huge part of the plant from receiving direct light. With T5's if a high fan leaf is blocking light at one angle, the light being emitted from a 4foot long panel will be able to shine "around" that leaf... basically your foliage will get BETTER penetration with a T5 based on the wide spread of the light emission... Its just a matter of keeping them close enough to utilize the energy before it dissipates. Theres a balance w HID, far enough not to burn but close enough to still be strong light, T5's dont have the burning to worry about. get it as close as you can, then if a top grows into a tube just raise em a little then. The t5's will BARELY damage a plant that touches a tube.

Granted, lumens are not the best measurement to use with plants, but if a T5 8 panel is rated at 40k lumens at 1ft, using the inverse square law the light would be 160k lumens at 6" ***(I dont do math so correct me if Im wrong) my point is that lights are rated for lumens at one foot, if you cant get your HPS within the 1ft range you wont get its rated light ouput, but if you can get your T5's closer than 1ft then you will get significantly HIGHER lumen ratings than are given for that fixture.

My theory for why nugs from T5s arent as dense as HID's... HID's are single point light sources... if your plant is constantly reaching up towards a single point of light, the buds will all be growing in the general direction of that light source, up, which would lead to more dense nugs as they all grow towards that one point... with T5's the light the plants recieve comes from directly above, to almost 180deg in all directions (if you have your lights down low the top buds are getting light at an almost horizontal angle, very wide spread angle) I think the buds may be less desnse as they kinda spread out and reach towards the light they're getting on the sides rather than growing straight up towards that single point light like with HID. Make sense? it does to me lol.. my 3cents


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## pedro420 (Jan 20, 2012)

Undercover - I don't know about the lumens part but as for the bud development that does make sence as the buds under the t5 can be fluffier because they have a horizon of light to look at instead of a hid being like a star in the sky the bud is trying to reach kinda forcing the buds to aim up instead of relaxed and just growing out like under the t5 

If I lost nebody I'm sry but I hope you all get what I'm trying to get at


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## falcon223 (Jan 20, 2012)

I got 3 red suns and 2 Fiji's to day , well 1 red sun has bit the dust already. I put the t5 in yesterday, and I have leaves reaching strait up.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm having great success with T5 and I keep them 6-10" above canopy for Veg and 2-4" during flower.

You absolutely 100% need to keep your canopy even doing T5!!! I mostly Supercrop about 5-10x up to about week 2 of flower. Then just do mild bending if it needs more control after that.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 20, 2012)

Sidenote: Badboy fixtures are very nice and have a great reflector. However they are built like shit and are fragile. That being said I sold all my other ones and just kept 4 8 bulb badboys


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## mipainpatient (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm just gonna say this one last time. I've had leaves TOUCHING my coral waves, no problemo. Hope all is well for everyone. Remember, yield has as much to do with root ball size as light quality, (poor quality light can actually increase yield while decreasing [cannabinoids]/gram)
peace,
MPP


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## pedro420 (Jan 20, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> I'm just gonna say this one last time. I've had leaves TOUCHING my coral waves, no problemo. Hope all is well for everyone. Remember, yield has as much to do with root ball size as light quality, (poor quality light can actually increase yield while decreasing [cannabinoids]/gram)
> peace,
> MPP


I can side with this I have a lemon skunk that is a seedling and the first 1 thumb leaves so to speak are almost cradling the bulb and it is going strong it stretched a bit but when it got to the light it's stayed right under it


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## hyroot (Jan 20, 2012)

Wave point added the spectrum chart for the ultra growth cola to the page with the rest of te charts. Still says coming soon. Just a matter of time.....


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## seed slaya (Jan 20, 2012)

thats a badass looking setup


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## overTHEman (Jan 20, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Wave point added the spectrum chart for the ultra growth cola to the page with the rest of te charts. Still says coming soon. Just a matter of time.....


It looks good on their website; gave me a half chub.


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 20, 2012)

overTHEman said:


> It looks good on their website; gave me a half chub.




that's right, thirteen clapping smilies for your half chub


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## overTHEman (Jan 20, 2012)

you wanna make that twenty-six?


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## Psytranceorgy (Jan 20, 2012)

.......    





thank you. /bow ...lol


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## hyroot (Jan 20, 2012)

Dorks


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)

http://www.powerfromthesun.net/Book/chapter02/chapter02.html


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## pr0fesseur (Jan 21, 2012)

Hello from Deutchland!
I am currently working in germany and will be in Amsterdam tomorrow! I know your all jealous... 
if anyone reading this is my area let me know id like to meet up @ a coffeeshop! Drinks and smoke on me 
Everyone else thanks for your support! And thanks to those supporting my forum please keep it up!
About yield vs light indeed 600 w vs 432 will take off.. that's a no brainer. what's the THC content? I will be on the lookout for a lab that will take accurate measurements. also I will be officially starting a new grow upon my return please be on the lookout. I will be sourcing my seeds tomorrow. Hoping to find a Motherstrain that will give great results.. I may be going to a purer f1 strain or even rocking it oldschool and going WW any suggestions?
I anticipate a grow of 2 strains under 1000w of T5 and UV with mutes maybe heisi I buy and ship home 
Let's hear some suggestion to put this to bed! Remember t5 needs extra flower time and short plants to penetrate.. and test I keep my lights as CLOSE AS POSSIBLE.. inverse square law and all 
See you all soon and once again I thank everyone here


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## richinweed (Jan 21, 2012)

i believe that the colored t-5 bulbes have a painted coating on the inside of the glass tube...it filters out all the other light ....the other bulbes have all the same light just with the added bonus of not filtering out all the other light ...so talking wasted lumens...if 80 percent of the light intencity /spectrum and lumens are trapped in the bulb ..thats a sheer waste of power and potential spectrum....its like putting a red seethru film OVER your bulb...u will get decreased spectrum and so on....good plan but you will do the same with the regular t-5 bulbes and only need about two thirds the consumption.


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## tehshyt (Jan 21, 2012)

richinweed said:


> i believe that the colored t-5 bulbes have a painted coating on the inside of the glass tube...it filters out all the other light ....the other bulbes have all the same light just with the added bonus of not filtering out all the other light ...so talking wasted lumens...if 80 percent of the light intencity /spectrum and lumens are trapped in the bulb ..thats a sheer waste of power and potential spectrum....its like putting a red seethru film OVER your bulb...u will get decreased spectrum and so on....good plan but you will do the same with the regular t-5 bulbes and only need about two thirds the consumption.


Who was talking about using color painted bulbs?
I'm assuming you realize that the reason the bulbs in this forum are distinctive colors has to do with the radiation emitted by the charged elements inside of them and not 'painted glass'


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 21, 2012)

richinweed said:


> i believe that the colored t-5 bulbes have a painted coating on the inside of the glass tube...it filters out all the other light ....the other bulbes have all the same light just with the added bonus of not filtering out all the other light ...so talking wasted lumens...if 80 percent of the light intencity /spectrum and lumens are trapped in the bulb ..thats a sheer waste of power and potential spectrum....its like putting a red seethru film OVER your bulb...u will get decreased spectrum and so on....good plan but you will do the same with the regular t-5 bulbes and only need about two thirds the consumption.


someone needs to do a little research before posting... 
Its true that the colored cfl's that are $2 wont work for growing = Party bulbs dont grow and grow bulbs dont party... the colors you see from OUR "colored" bulbs are created the exact same way that your white or orange grow/bloom bulbs emit light. It all has to do with the phosphor coating on the inside of the glass. At heart ALL fluoro tubes are harmful UVC tubes... the UVC light created when the gasses inside are excited hits the unique phosphor coatings on the inside of the tubes and is then converted to the visible light we see. The light we see is the product of the phosphor coatings inside the tubes, and all fluoros have them the same (no one here is using any kind of cheap bulb or bulbs with colored plastic sleeves to tint the light) 
regular t5 bulbs may use less wattage, but T8's use even less... you're not even getting half the photonic energy output though

Your theory makes sense when applied to "party bulbs" because, yes, THEY ARE coated... but for $20 a tube, we'd all be pretty stupid if we're just buying party bulbs. You obviously havent seen any pics of T5 buds yet have you?
week5



I argued your point on this thread... https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-fluorescent-lighting/478975-coloured-fluorescent-lights-their-viability.html this was some guy who wanted to use the party bulbs to grow, there are alot of idiots that thought is was a good idea (and lots of idiots who thought you cant grow with PAR specific bulbs also)


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## richinweed (Jan 21, 2012)

totally correct,,the phosphors(sp) allow the visible light ...dependant on them is the visible light ...so a full spectrum bulb contains the same light as a red bulb....just the red is narrowed down..... no one here uses anything cheap...ive bieng doin this 30 years plus.....i have tried the colored bulbs , there is lots to be said for uvb bulbs....but it seems to me that there is no difference in one or the other as far as veg..altho reasearch is saying uvb(invisible spectrum) is showing potential.....i never bud under anything but hid lamps...anyway jus sayin from years of experements and modifications.OBTW....IVE BEEN GROWING PROB LONGER THAN U HAVE BEEN ALIVE ...bOY...SO CALLIN ME AN IDIOT IS VERY BRAVE bOY


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## falcon223 (Jan 21, 2012)

Wow painted bulbs. I could have saved a fortune. richinweed, you must be close to my age. Are you a Viet Nam Vet? 

I am so old I fart dust.

I got the hydro farm fixture, and it is well made, and a bit heavy. 4 foot 8 tube. I am happy with it so far. Wish I could get another one.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 21, 2012)

richinweed said:


> totally correct,,the phosphors(sp) allow the visible light ...dependant on them is the visible light ...so a full spectrum bulb contains the same light as a red bulb....just the red is narrowed down..... no one here uses anything cheap...ive bieng doin this 30 years plus.....i have tried the colored bulbs , there is lots to be said for uvb bulbs....but it seems to me that there is no difference in one or the other as far as veg..altho reasearch is saying uvb(invisible spectrum) is showing potential.....i never bud under anything but hid lamps...anyway jus sayin from years of experements and modifications.OBTW....IVE BEEN GROWING PROB LONGER THAN U HAVE BEEN ALIVE ...bOY...SO CALLIN ME AN IDIOT IS VERY BRAVE bOY


lol I am a very brave boy, who was calling those who thought you COULD grow with _party bulbs_ the idiots. chill old man. I respect your experience with HID's, but the point of the thread (had you read a few pages) was to test the theory and prove that you could indeed grow using PAR specific bulbs to create a spectrum that would compete watt for watt with HID's... which through the last 2k posts, has been proven several times over. We're to the point of perfecting it now, its already been proven (Here and elsewhere)

Your 30 years experience could make you an expert in your methodology, but your first post here where you stated


richinweed said:


> i believe that the colored t-5 bulbes have a painted coating on the inside of the glass tube...it filters out all the other light.... ... ...its like putting a red seethru film OVER your bulb...u will get decreased spectrum and so on....good plan but you will do the same with the regular t-5 bulbes and only need about two thirds the consumption.


 just shows that you dont really understand how fluorescent tubes work, let alone "colored" tubes which are the exact same in all except the composition of the phosphor coating inside the glass. Your description describes the cheap party bulbs that are painted and do filter out all but the desired color. These are a whole different story, completely different from spectrum specific tubes, which again are the same as the plain white or orange tubes or cfl's you prefer. To each his own, maybe I could have responded a little more delicately at first, but it gets old when we get die hard HID fans that come here to hate on a method that has been proven and is working for the majority here. It happens pretty regularly, just remember that the purpose of this thread was to test and perfect a method that was widely thought to be impossible. I still have a book by Cervantes where he says you cannot grow using aquarium bulbs. No you cant do with the traditional all blue aquarium actinics, but with the right blend you certainly can outperform HID watt for watt........ (and again performance is all relative, for a cash cropper yield may be your goal where HID may edge out T5, but for a medicinal grower (this IS a medicinal grower's community website) potency and quality are usually preferred, and so far T5's are showing to give better results there)



richinweed said:


> i never bud under anything but hid lamps


 ok, give it a try for yourself then let us know how it compares


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## tehshyt (Jan 21, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> week5
> View attachment 2010739
> View attachment 2010741


^Damn those look like some happy plants


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Hello from Deutchland!
> I am currently working in germany and will be in Amsterdam tomorrow! I know your all jealous...
> if anyone reading this is my area let me know id like to meet up @ a coffeeshop! Drinks and smoke on me
> Everyone else thanks for your support! And thanks to those supporting my forum please keep it up!
> ...




Anything from soma seeds. dutch passion has a great master kush which im doing now. its my fav of all my strains. that one is mostly inica which would probably be better for sog


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## Calrt (Jan 21, 2012)

poind3xter said:


> T5's are not going to penetrate to the same degree that HPS would. I didn't get my yield up until I was running 864W of T5 and then LST/Scrogging. I also keep my T5's 12-18 inches away to help light penetration.


 Mine are always 2-4"



Lucius Vorenus said:


> how much CO2 are you running in the tents? keep it at 1500 under the T5's and they should take off.


 No Co2 here but I have monitored it, it is around 350



pr0fesseur said:


> About yield vs light indeed 600 w vs 432 will take off.. that's a no brainer. what's the THC content? I will be on the lookout for a lab that will take accurate measurements.


 If I could have a place do it for a decent price I would! Help find a place, I am in Ca so there should be some places local....I am dying to try it myself!

No canopy control here, this is my first grow and I wanted to get my feet wet first. My gut feeling it HPS with something like a FloraSun on each side to add to the spectrum would be a cool combo. I only run about 30% less airflow in the T5 tent, makes sense, I have 30% less watts being used. Watts=energy=heat


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)




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## pedro420 (Jan 21, 2012)

looking realy good hyroot


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## falcon223 (Jan 21, 2012)

Say hyroot those leaves are black. What strain is that? And looks great. You are really growing there. I like I like a lot.
Is that a good pain killer? I live in pain. Really need a good pain killer. 
How far along are your plants? Sorry for all the questions.


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Say hyroot those leaves are black. What strain is that? And looks great. You are really growing there. I like I like a lot.
> Is that a good pain killer? I live in pain. Really need a good pain killer.
> How far along are your plants? Sorry for all the questions.




Yours looks nice too. the ones with black / dark purple is bubba kush. the cold air made go very dark purple.. its still curing, the bud that im holding the container up to is the ones still under the t5 at the end of the pics is raspberry cough and that is a good strain for pain. i got it from nirvanashop. most of their strains are not that good but cheap though. their master is actually hindu skunk. they are all at different rates. most of those i already chopped down last week. bubba kush, master kush, afghanni bullrider, platinum bubba x train wreck. the raspberry cough is still going which are the last pics where im holding the container to them. that is at day 66 today and i took that pic today. im letting go til 70 days days then going in the dark for 2 days before i chop chop


I had a half of them under hps and half under t5. when i chopped them i moved 2 of the rc that were under hps to the t5. then put a new batch under the hps. im doing sog this next round with a little lst


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## falcon223 (Jan 21, 2012)

Thanks hyroot. Looks good. I am dialing in flower bulbs and would like your in put.

























Witch is best in your opinion? I have my Owen choice, but want a second opinions.

Thanks.


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)

im still trying to figure out the wave point charts. they don't measure at percentage of irradiance or relative energy. they measure in w/m2. i do understand that aspect, i just have no idea what 4 De-001 means. thats how high the spectrum goes on the ultra growth. im switching my lights up. I'm going to do either 2 fiji 2 redsun and 4 ultragrowth or 1 fiji 1 coral wave and 4 ultragrowth or 4 colormax instead of ultragrowth. im starting to think these wave point bulbs are not as good as we thought. as soon as i figure it out i will say for sure. If anyone can tell me what that damn measurement is let me know. until then i will be in the nerd cave figuring it out


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Thanks hyroot. Looks good. I am dialing in flower bulbs and would like your in put.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



those charts are all mislabeled.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 21, 2012)

Just added CalCarb in for Co2 into our grow. Will report back on whether its snake oil or not. I hear good things.

Sidenote: HOme Depot now carries Philips 4100k T5 HO bulbs for $9. 


Here is the Bulb currently at HD for $9


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 21, 2012)

Another worthy thread. Which one of you might be BENDMMC and started this thread back in December 2009????

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/grow-supply-product-reviews/108241-quantum-t5-badboy-12.html


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 21, 2012)

PatientNo.420 said:


> I honestly hope my grow isn't given biased views and that I'm not judged by the music I listen to especially because I listen to a wide variety of music (no hostility here, just clarifying). I grew up with a strong hip-hop/rap influence so I listen to it daily because I love the beats (used to produce) and some of it is inspiring as well. Music was not intended to be in the video though, first day recording with a new phone and I couldn't find the audio mute button for the camera. I can't seem to find anywhere in the video editing on YouTube that allows me to mute it, obviously I'm going to have to figure out something as your not the first who has commented on the music, haha.
> 
> To the plants though, I can't say as the SLH are liking the music (they were donated to me so they had issues to begin with) but the rest hear it everyday with no complaints as of yet. That room is about to be done for a while anyways, it needs to be remodeled and the HID is hopefully gone for good. I'll keep them around as extra lights but I'd like to have T5's or LED in their place. I yield within a half oz per plant (almost everytime) of my HID yields per plant with the Quantum setup so just switching to them with their bulbs seems to be reason enough but with a better spectrum it could be better than LED as well. However, I can't seem to come to the conclusion as which combination of bulbs is going to be the best yield/quality combo. I notice different people are running different combinations.
> 
> Has anyone who has ran these bulbs on here been able to hit 4+ ounces in 3 gallon pot with these bulb configurations?


I saw you mention seeing the Spectrum for your Quantum Bulbs in the past, where did you find the Spectrum graph? I contacted Quantum and they said they don't have one.

The growth ive seen from the 2900k bulbs has been some of the most impressive from T5's that ive seen as of yet.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 21, 2012)

hyroot said:


> those charts are all mislabeled.


I was trippin at first, thinking "where did the IR go from the Coral wave?!?" Im thinking the Coral Wave SPD is actually the Reef Wave.

My opinion of the Wavepoints (I have all but the 6500k and 12000k)... they're better than the free bulbs that came with my fixture. 
I would opt for a red wave for a 6500k replacement, but its nothing special. 
The Coral wave is unique for it's IR spike in the 700+range. Its essentially a decent blue bulb with the benefit of IR to help trigger flowering. 
The Reef Wave is good for the lower/deeper blues that some other bulbs miss. 
The Blue wave is a pretty typical 440nm blue, but for half the price (I got mine for $10ea w shipping at petmountain.com... but Ive seen them elsewhere for $20, Im still going on the $10ea pricepoint). 

Here's what they look like, from top down, the middle two slots in each (top fixture = reef wave over blue wave) (bottom fixture = coral wave over red wave) 



I am excited for the Ultra Growth tho...


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> I saw you mention seeing the Spectrum for your Quantum Bulbs in the past, where did you find the Spectrum graph? I contacted Quantum and they said they don't have one.
> 
> The growth ive seen from the 2900k bulbs has been some of the most impressive from T5's that ive seen as of yet.


i sent quantum an email and the following day they posted them on their site. http://www.quantumhort.com/quantum-triphosphor-bulbs.html


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## hyroot (Jan 21, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I was trippin at first, thinking "where did the IR go from the Coral wave?!?" Im thinking the Coral Wave SPD is actually the Reef Wave.
> 
> My opinion of the Wavepoints (I have all but the 6500k and 12000k)... they're better than the free bulbs that came with my fixture.
> I would opt for a red wave for a 6500k replacement, but its nothing special.
> ...




Im just not sure of how high those peaks are though. the coral wave is at 8 De-001 and the ultra growth is at 4 De-001. i still have not figured it out yet what that means........


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 21, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Im just not sure of how high those peaks are though. the coral wave is at 8 De-001 and the ultra growth is at 4 De-001. i still have not figured it out yet what that means........


That is very true and Ive wondered about that myself... I guess I kinda figure they'll all have a given light output given their 54w usage, and I just compare the width/height/location of the peaks from their SPD and compare them to the location/height of the spikes in the SPD's of other bulbs, assuming that the overall light output wont be that different between various manufacturers given that they all get 54w and they all use the same technology/phosphors. I dont give much thought to if their pure blue 440 will be as "bright" as any other brands that have a SPD that looks the same. 
I dunno, anyone know if there can be really that much difference in the overall light output between two bulbs with very similar SPD's? Are Wavepoints cheaper cuz they're dimmer (even slightly)? I have them next to other brand bulbs and they all seem just as bright.


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## hyroot (Jan 22, 2012)

I have a friend who is an environmental physicist look into it and he was lost. He said he had never seen 4 De-001 written anywhere and without a given variable or defintion that it does not make sense.....


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## PetFlora (Jan 22, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Another worthy thread. Which one of you might be BENDMMC and started this thread back in December 2009????
> 
> http://www.420magazine.com/forums/grow-supply-product-reviews/108241-quantum-t5-badboy-12.html


I found MCBs thread last year, just when I as getting ready to order a bigger LED. He used ONLY Quantum G & B bulbs, so I bought 8 of each. My first grow was all males. Before the second grow I came across Pr0f's thread. And the rest, as they say, _is history_. I do infill with the 6500s. They actually have a decent spectral graph and one of the guys here (LV?) uses their Flower bulbs, which, again, I add for fill, only cause another Red Sun died. I am still looking for a kick-ass replacement. I found 2 Coral Waves sun burned my leafs


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## PetFlora (Jan 22, 2012)

hyroot said:


> i sent quantum an email and the following day they posted them on their site. http://www.quantumhort.com/quantum-triphosphor-bulbs.html


Well, it only took about 9 months (guess it had to gestate) before they posted them. They do think they are worth a premium (~$13/), but I imagine were I to run 8/8 Q Grows then when I flipped replace 2 with Q Flower (2900s) the yield would be pretty good. But their 2900 looks anemic when lit, not very comforting that it will rock some serious bud.


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## PetFlora (Jan 22, 2012)

Good news from Aquarium Specialty Rewards Program http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/specialtyrewards


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## tehshyt (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm still in the early stages of vegging. I've got 3 red sun bulbs ready to go when I flip them to 12/12. At this point I'm almost expecting them to die.
What is the current best substitute for a resdun?


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## falcon223 (Jan 22, 2012)

Yea we need a good flower bulb. I guess we could paint the bulbs red? You know like that other guy said.
The coral wave is on my list. 

What do you think about this.


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## Calrt (Jan 22, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> I'm still in the early stages of vegging. I've got 3 red sun bulbs ready to go when I flip them to 12/12. At this point I'm almost expecting them to die.
> What is the current best substitute for a resdun?


All 6 of my Red Suns in two different fixtures are going strong....maybe I just got lucky?


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## PetFlora (Jan 22, 2012)

My RS was fine until I removed one. A week later, when I reinstalled it was DOA. Probably bad adhesive which broke seal when twisting out


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 22, 2012)

The four red suns I bought, where two went out immediately... AS re-shipped me 2 Fiji Purples to replace them since they were all out of Red Suns... both Fiji's arrived broken in half! And they have no more Fiji's till Feb. I asked about Giessemann Aqua Flora's and Kelly said she wants to help but has nothing else to send me?!?! So Im getting a refund, bought 4 Red Suns from another seller hoping it was just AS's batch that was bad.

I hate the Red Suns after getting burned (a month later and still have blank slots in my 8bulb) but theres nothing comparable for pure red.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 22, 2012)

hyroot said:


> i sent quantum an email and the following day they posted them on their site. http://www.quantumhort.com/quantum-triphosphor-bulbs.html


Cool! What do you think about their bulbs?


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## Calrt (Jan 22, 2012)

I have moved all of my Red Suns lots of times....don't know why they are all good....


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## mipainpatient (Jan 22, 2012)

Yo undercover- you asked a ways back about comparing bulbs w similar outputs/spds. This is actually a huge issue the way I understand (from the pdf I posted like 40 pages back--one of my first on the thread) as there is no known meter which can reliably compare an artificial emitter (light bulb etc in their varied forms, diodes and so on) to solar irradiance. Boom. Fail for anyone trying to claim they are reproducing sunlight as opposed to claiming to try to emulate sunlight, no meter has been able to do an accurate (at least as far as peer-reviewed science via journals is considered) comparison. Yea I know you can walk outside with your "light meter" and get a number, probably a really high one, and come stick it under a grow bulb and complain or brag depending on the numbers. But the problem is that we have trouble accurately measuring all of the wavelengths at once. All are important in different ways because they are ALL available to the plant from the sun, normally. Full spectrum growing is an important concept because you can see some really bizarre morphologies from "low-quality light" aka deficient spectrums. 
I submit 2 ways of measuring the lights.
1) reverse spectroscopy-finding chemical compounds which have peak absorbance/reflectance etc at certain wavelengths/concentrations and rig a spectrometer which can compare it to recorded outputs from a light of the same type...? I'm assuming some of the error comes in the drastically changing output types. 
2) Target plant morphologies with low-quality dialed in spectrums.
For example phototropism with blue band, you should be able to arrange a test with even spinach or whatever and same heights/growing conditions, and just move the lights from side to side each day and monitor the pulling power. Put the plants in the middle, do they visibly favor one or the other? By my understanding, until the light saturation point is hit, the phototropism should favor the higher average blue band emission/intensity or some similar relationship of those factors.
If Prof. Craker over at UMass wins this case ( http://www.maps.org/research/mmj/dea_timeline/ It looks so favorable but you know how these things go) then maybe I'll submit some research in this area.
What is useful is comparing lamp to lamp, but major issues arise in the individual measuring devices, the pdf I posted is an analysis of like the 3 leading brand PAR meters.
Sorry if this is all greek to you. 
BTW all after you hit the lifespan of your bulbs and retire them from your grow, if you have another unit, they are probably still good to go for growing salad greens etc, or my latest idea:
Green manure + Rhizobium inoculated legume preplants for Added N and myco/bacteria population building time, fueled by old bulbs. (you grow inoculated bean seeds in your soil, potted up and ready for your med stock. After the beans are big enough, or you are done fruiting off them--may want to add nutes back to soil if you harvest a lot, think iron, no EDTA pls----you turn the whole bean plant, chopped up if you prefer, back into the soil and let it "compost" for a week or two before transplanting in your clone/popping in your sprouted bean)

MPP
edit:
the morphology tests in "2)" have been performed with many many many plants, databases are full of the published studies, (search "red light blue light xxx", xxx for plant name, just limited wavelngths have been tested on ganj, and honestly genetics play such a large role I've only seen 2 comprehensive studies and they were more about the terpenoid contents than the light, but a savvy eye can glean the details. There is also that flux density study i posted a bit back
edit edit:
http://www.maps.org/media/view/crakers_legal_team_submits_opening_brief_in_lawsuit_against_dea/
has the pdf link for the brief he submitted on December 15, 2011 read the first 50 or so pages, seems pretty tight.


----------



## Beagle (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm going to be building my t5 grow box setup soon and am also wondering what bulbs would be best for flowering. I will be sticking with the included 6500k for veg as they have worked fine in my current setup.

Here is what I'm considering so far:
View attachment 2013433
Zoo-med Florasun

View attachment 2013438
Sylvania Gro-lux...which seems to be only available across the pond. 

View attachment 2013445
UVL Red Sun ...seems to do nothing for 660nm.

View attachment 2013450
Ultra Growth Wave....coming soon.

Any others(red spectrum!) I should consider?


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## mipainpatient (Jan 23, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Any others(red spectrum!) I should consider?


Honestly given the difficulties, I wouldn't be opposed to LED supplementation at this point, I feel like I've seen strip LEDs that do high 600's nm.
Concerning t5s...
I dunno, anyone looked at this before?
[h=1]AquaticLife T5 HO Pink Roseate[/h](http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21444)
Couldn't find a graph, usually when you throw google the bulb name and hit the images section, you get applicable graphs in the first few pages...but the only ones I saw for like 20 or so pages were graphs for other products, thats not even getting into the accuracy or biasing of the graphs when you do find them.
Excited about the ultra can't get em so work with what you can I guess.
MPP


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## PetFlora (Jan 23, 2012)

I tried 2/8 CWs it was too much, bleached my leafs


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## BlueB (Jan 23, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I have a friend who is an environmental physicist look into it and he was lost. He said he had never seen 4 De-001 written anywhere and without a given variable or defintion that it does not make sense.....


Check this out guys. The verticle measurement on these graphs really don't mean much. The graph is only a representation of how the different wavelengths compare as in the ratio of blue to green to red. When I was doing the measurement for the Fiji Purple bulb the graph would shrink and grow vertically depending on how far the light was being held from the optic fiber sensor on the spectrometer. I had to stand about 7 feet away just to get a graph that wasn't off the chart. So the reason that we are seeing all these different Y-axis measurements is because they are irrelavant. The graph is meant only to show the buyer how the proportions of the light emitted. Don't beleive me? Call one of these bulb manufactures and ask for a tech.


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## BlueB (Jan 23, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> That is very true and Ive wondered about that myself... I guess I kinda figure they'll all have a given light output given their 54w usage, and I just compare the width/height/location of the peaks from their SPD and compare them to the location/height of the spikes in the SPD's of other bulbs, assuming that the overall light output wont be that different between various manufacturers given that they all get 54w and they all use the same technology/phosphors. I dont give much thought to if their pure blue 440 will be as "bright" as any other brands that have a SPD that looks the same.
> I dunno, anyone know if there can be really that much difference in the overall light output between two bulbs with very similar SPD's? Are Wavepoints cheaper cuz they're dimmer (even slightly)? I have them next to other brand bulbs and they all seem just as bright.


NO. The Y-axis is only to show how the peak intensities relate to each other not the overall brightness of the bulb. The reason why no one is using the same vertical measurement is because it is totally irrelevant. I hope I don't have to explain this again. These bulb graphs are only meant to give someone an idea about how the bulb emits the wavelengths in proportion to each other. The wattage is what is going to give you the intensity. For example, a VHO bulb will be much brighter than a HO bulb.


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## unohu69 (Jan 23, 2012)

blueb, great job on the Fiji chart. its good to see this thread evolving into a unique research base. deff the only one on RIU like it. 
This should be sticky'd


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## PetFlora (Jan 23, 2012)

*Hyroot* or anyone else who has HPS experience vs T5s: I think I mentioned that I am babysitting a female that was ~ 21 days into bloom when I took her in. At that time she smelled amazing. The smell has been gone now for awhile. I have no idea what bulb type or intensity (600-1000...) but am beginning to suspect my 432 w T5 setup is missing something, or do I just more T5 watts?


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## falcon223 (Jan 23, 2012)

It might just be a faze the plant is going through.


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## overTHEman (Jan 23, 2012)

Week 9 update.


This is likely the last pic before harvest. Her privates smell like ripe dankity and are covered in crystals. Dense buds but have not swollen, likely due to phosphorus burn issues.


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## pedro420 (Jan 23, 2012)

Looks realy good bro keep up the good work


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## BlueB (Jan 23, 2012)

overTHEman said:


> Week 9 update.
> 
> 
> This is likely the last pic before harvest. Her privates smell like ripe dankity and are covered in crystals. Dense buds but have not swollen, likely due to phosphorus burn issues.


That really looks like some tasty medical shiznit B. What strain do you got there if you know?


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## BlueB (Jan 23, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *Hyroot* or anyone else who has HPS experience vs T5s: I think I mentioned that I am babysitting a female that was ~ 21 days into bloom when I took her in. At that time she smelled amazing. The smell has been gone now for awhile. I have no idea what bulb type or intensity (600-1000...) but am beginning to suspect my 432 w T5 setup is missing something, or do I just more T5 watts?


Post a photo! Worth a thousands word!


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## hyroot (Jan 23, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *Hyroot* or anyone else who has HPS experience vs T5s: I think I mentioned that I am babysitting a female that was ~ 21 days into bloom when I took her in. At that time she smelled amazing. The smell has been gone now for awhile. I have no idea what bulb type or intensity (600-1000...) but am beginning to suspect my 432 w T5 setup is missing something, or do I just more T5 watts?


thats more or less sounds more like its not being fed what its used to or ph. or maybe thats just the way that strain is. post a pic, ive never had a problem moving them from hps to t5. actually they seem to be more happy when I do that.


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## hyroot (Jan 23, 2012)

ive kept my t5 about a foot away this whole time more for spectrum blend. . about a week ago i dropped to about 3 inches away. they got so much more chunky and they are bigger than they were at this time last batch.... they are getting chopped this week


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## BlueB (Jan 23, 2012)

hyroot said:


> thats more or less sounds more like its not being fed what its used to or ph. or maybe thats just the way that strain is. post a pic, ive never had a problem moving them from hps to t5. actually they seem to be more happy when I do that.


That's so cool that you say this because I just moved a plant from HPS to T5 and the plant really responded nicely. I am about to flip to 12/12 under the T5. Here is the bulb combo I'm using for flower now, 4 Flora Sun, 2 Fiji Purple, 2 Red Sun. So far so good. Can't wait to get some tasty smoke. It will be interesting to see if there is a taste difference between the HPS and T5 over here.


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## falcon223 (Jan 24, 2012)

This t5 shit is contagious. I am saving up to get another fixture. Any one try this bulb yet ,The AquaticLife 45.75 inch, 60/620nm Purple 54 Watt T5 HO Fluorescent?? Or this one,,The Roseate lamp is 650nm and is ideal for freshwater planted tanks. Best used in combination with 6000K lamps. 
Both have the 600 range nm. No graph. There is also the Sylvania red, but it is expensive. 54 Watt T High Output (Ho) Fluorescent Bulb, Red Emission - FPO/Red/Ho. So many bulbs so little money.


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## PetFlora (Jan 24, 2012)

She looks healthy and happy. Older leaves have some deficiency, but all newer leaves are perfect. When I got her she had just been watered- soaked more like it. It was 8 days before I watered as the soil meter reading remained very wet


Feeding her DM Gold + DM Potash+ @ ~ 750ppm

_*EDIT:* I have no idea what type or wattage of bulb she was under, but when I got her she stunk up the room. That stopped after 4-5 days. Looking for ideas why._


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## mipainpatient (Jan 24, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> This t5 shit is contagious. I am saving up to get another fixture. Any one try this bulb yet ,The AquaticLife 45.75 inch, 60/620nm Purple 54 Watt T5 HO Fluorescent?? Or this one,,The Roseate lamp is 650nm and is ideal for freshwater planted tanks. Best used in combination with 6000K lamps.
> Both have the 600 range nm. No graph. There is also the Sylvania red, but it is expensive. 54 Watt T High Output (Ho) Fluorescent Bulb, Red Emission - FPO/Red/Ho. So many bulbs so little money.


I was just askin about the roseate, seen it anywhere cheaper than dr'sfoster&smith?
I'm just lookin for 2footers but I'll report back on the effectiveness. Again im currently runnin 6500K/Coralwave/6500K/CW (2x) was thinking of switching out a bulb for the roseate but I have 2 single fixtures lying around might just throw the ROS where the second 6500K goes and add the single fixture on the end so its 6500K/CW/ROS/CW/6500K (2x) 

Id love to keep it pure t5 but im SCROGing so I'll probably through some CFLs under the canopy....although my neighbor had some BRIGHT ASS christmas lights this year, gave me a crazy idea for under canopy lighting.......
MPP


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jan 24, 2012)

2-3" max during flower boys. They won't burn I promise! I only raise them higher during veg when I want a stretch.

Sidenote about pics: Tiny buds can look big if it's just a pic of the bud. Everyone should try and place something like a Coke can or lighter next to buds to show SCALE.


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## stealth grow 11 (Jan 24, 2012)

can i add one blue super antic light to supplement my cfls i only have 2700ks in there now would it help to mix the spectrum up here's some pics
i want to add it to the wall vertically would this do anything or just waste time


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 24, 2012)

stealth grow 11 said:


> can i add one blue super antic light to supplement my cfls i only have 2700ks in there now would it help to mix the spectrum up here's some pics
> i want to add it to the wall vertically would this do anything or just waste time
> View attachment 2016834View attachment 2016837


Your CFL's already have almost the same range of blue, but their red peaks at about 610nm, you'd be alot better to try to find a red heavy tri-band bulb, like a colormax, florasun, or aquaflora. Your cfl's have a good dose of blue within them and naturally have a decent spectrum, blue/gree/red, but the reds are a little low for good PAR response (sure it will work but you want whats best right) 

Any bulb you can find with a red peak over 620nm would be a good addition.

btw those look like 6500k's, not 2700k?


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## stealth grow 11 (Jan 24, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Your CFL's already have almost the same range of blue, but their red peaks at about 610nm, you'd be alot better to try to find a red heavy tri-band bulb, like a colormax, florasun, or aquaflora. Your cfl's have a good dose of blue within them and naturally have a decent spectrum, blue/gree/red, but the reds are a little low for good PAR response (sure it will work but you want whats best right)
> 
> Any bulb you can find with a red peak over 620nm would be a good addition.
> 
> btw those look like 6500k's, not 2700k?


it said on the box they where 2700k. which is for flowering right 
i also have a aqua-glo and a power-glo a bunch of stuff from fish keeping i just want as much good light in there as possible
 the top is 6700k the bottom is 2700k right


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 24, 2012)

stealth grow 11 said:


> it said on the box they where 2700k. which is for flowering right
> i also have a aqua-glo and a power-glo a bunch of stuff from fish keeping i just want as much good light in there as possible
> View attachment 2017246 the top is 6700k the bottom is 2700k rightView attachment 2017247


ok they just looked like 6500k's in the pic. If you're still in veg I would use a blend of both 6500's and 2700's. of the two SPD's the top looks better, too much green/too little red on the bottom one. my 2c


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## stealth grow 11 (Jan 24, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> ok they just looked like 6500k's in the pic. If you're still in veg I would use a blend of both 6500's and 2700's. of the two SPD's the top looks better, too much green/too little red on the bottom one. my 2c


ok ill use that for now till i order one with more red thanx for the help +rep


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## falcon223 (Jan 24, 2012)

I think I will give these bulbs a try. 


*Our Price: $16.99 *




*In Stock * 






The AquaticLife 45.75 inch, Roseate 54 Watt T5 HO Fluorescent Lamps are 45.75 inches from end of pin to end of pin (for 48 inch fixtures/retrofits). 

The Roseate lamp is 650nm and is ideal for freshwater planted tanks. Best used in combination with 6000K lamps 


*Our Price: $16.99 *




*In Stock * 






The AquaticLife 45.75 inch, 60/620nm Purple 54 Watt T5 HO Fluorescent Lamps are 45.75 inches from end of pin to end of pin (for 48 inch fixtures/retrofits).

The 60/620nm Purple bulb spectrum is ideal for acroporas, anemones, clams, hard corals, leathers, mushrooms, polyps, soft corals and xenias. 

My 3 red suns have all crashed now.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 24, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> My 3 red suns have all crashed now.


damn you too huh? I have 4 more on the way from HelioLights (cheaper shipping than AS anyway) Lets hope its just AS's batch that are going bad. How old were yours and where did ya get em?

For flowering sidelighting Ill then have 2 red suns in each 4 bulb panel, with a coral wave and bloom3k until I can get some UltraGrowths or AquaFlora's/Colormax or similar.


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## Calrt (Jan 24, 2012)

What fixtures are you guys running? I have 3 that are 7 weeks old and 3 that are 5 and all looked good this morning.....Bad Boy and a Hydro Farm fixture, both 8-bulbs


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 24, 2012)

I have all cheap Radiion fixtures, and had one go out in an 8 bulb and one in a 4 bulb... separate fixtures. And they're the ONLY bulbs Ive had go out.

The theory is that its the glue on the end caps, which would explain why the ones that work, work well...and the ones that dont, dont.


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## ohiogrown03 (Jan 24, 2012)

just harvested the rest of my first plant. Before last night I already had 30 grams dried/curing that i took off to try over the past 2 1/2 weeks. So I just trimmed up the last of the 1 plant i did under 432 watts and got another 490g of trimmed/manicured tight buds and very little stem left, plus another 26g of sugar trim and airy buds i didn't care to jar with the rest. So if i get 25% of that, thats another 126ish so I think i might have got a total just short of 6oz dried off one plant and one t5 for my first attempt at this. I am more than pleased with the outcome no matter what the final yield, but there are finally some yield numbers for the people in question. I have some killing fields, mad shack, mad kush, and ko kush from sannie seedlings all going right now.


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## falcon223 (Jan 25, 2012)

I got my red suns from Hello lights. I wander if they will refund me?


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## falcon223 (Jan 25, 2012)

Ohiogrown , I ant never got 6 ounces of one plant . Even with HID.


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## PetFlora (Jan 25, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I have all cheap Radiion fixtures, and had one go out in an 8 bulb and one in a 4 bulb... separate fixtures. And they're the ONLY bulbs Ive had go out.
> 
> The theory is that its the glue on the end caps, which would explain why the ones that work, work well...and the ones that dont, dont.


Also, if you twist them out when hot, the seal can break, as it apparently did on one of mine


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## milfblaster (Jan 25, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *Hyroot* or anyone else who has HPS experience vs T5s: I think I mentioned that I am babysitting a female that was ~ 21 days into bloom when I took her in. At that time she smelled amazing. The smell has been gone now for awhile. I have no idea what bulb type or intensity (600-1000...) but am beginning to suspect my 432 w T5 setup is missing something, or do I just more T5 watts?


Some people say that plants won't smell if they aren't under stress. Maybe the smell is still being produced but just not being released? That could be a good thing. Maybe you aren't "losing" as much smell. I'm not saying that's what's going on, just throwing that theory out there.


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## ohiogrown03 (Jan 25, 2012)

@falcon223, sorry about your luck. I seriously doubt i'll get the 5 3/4 like i calculated last night, but I had just spent about the better part of almost 4 hours trimming and hanging and all that stuff. I had been up for 20 hours, had 8 hours of graduate school before that, and needless to say my mind was spent at the point of my last post. All I did was take my total wet trimmed bud weight and took 25% of that. I already have an oz give or take an 1/8 that was dried/ being cured now. So that's already a fact, another fact is that I easily pulled of 4-6 times what i already had dried/cured. I know this by how long it took to trim, size of the buds compared to the few branches i had already taken off. You don't have to believe me. I have a hard time believing it myself, but it seems reasonable. Even if i got half of what i came up with last night, that's still going to be 4+oz off one plant, which someone was wondering a few pages back. Which I have no doubt in my mind I will eclipse. Like I said i already have 1oz dried, and curing and there is way more than 3 times that amount cut and trimmed last night compared to what I had to trim to get 1oz. It's one of those moments when you don't want to get yourself too excited, but you have a good feeling that it's going to be a lot more than the 2-3 that you were expecting. 
Either way I'm very happy with the final product.


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## Swiftowl11 (Jan 25, 2012)

Question, I read through some of this post. Im new to T5, use to HPS and LED. I want to set-up a strictly veg tent. I want to use T5, but would 8 4ft 6500k t5ho bulbs or 4 10000k t5ho, 4 actinic 460nm t5ho bulbs, be better for ONLY VEGGING. 

Which is better for vegging.


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## PetFlora (Jan 25, 2012)

Swiftowl11 said:


> Question, I read through some of this post. Im new to T5, use to HPS and LED. I want to set-up a strictly veg tent. I want to use T5, but would 8 4ft 6500k t5ho bulbs or 4 10000k t5ho, 4 actinic 460nm t5ho bulbs, be better for ONLY VEGGING.
> 
> Which is better for vegging.


Drop a divider between the 8 bulbs and try both. Keep us posted


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> View attachment 2016538
> 
> She looks healthy and happy. Older leaves have some deficiency, but all newer leaves are perfect. When I got her she had just been watered- soaked more like it. It was 8 days before I watered as the soil meter reading remained very wet
> 
> ...


You sure you don't have thrips? Do you use way more fertilizer than neccessary?


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I have all cheap Radiion fixtures, and had one go out in an 8 bulb and one in a 4 bulb... separate fixtures. And they're the ONLY bulbs Ive had go out.
> 
> The theory is that its the glue on the end caps, which would explain why the ones that work, work well...and the ones that dont, dont.


Maybe they are getting rattled around more than necessary in transit? UPS does like to play kickball with the packages ya know?



PetFlora said:


> Also, if you twist them out when hot, the seal can break, as it apparently did on one of mine


They shouldn't get hot, you need a fan on them T5's to keep em cool. You know on those expensive ATI fixtures they come with cooling fans built in. Those would be a real nice fixture to get. You are talkin an extra $1k however for those.


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## Calrt (Jan 25, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Maybe they are getting rattled around more than necessary in transit? UPS does like to play kickball with the packages ya know?
> 
> 
> They shouldn't get hot, you need a fan on them T5's to keep em cool. You know on those expensive ATI fixtures they come with cooling fans built in. Those would be a real nice fixture to get. You are talkin an extra $1k however for those.



I have removed them lots of times "hot" I have also noticed the Red Suns are hotter then the others. Maybe the cheaper fixtures are harder to rotate in and out? Just a thought.....


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 25, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> I got my red suns from Hello lights. I wander if they will refund me?


Let me know if they do, Thats where I have 4 coming from now. Did they ever send you a tracking number when you first ordered? I havent got anything from them since Saturday when I ordered, except the paypal reciept


oh and btw, the RS's that failed on me had never been removed after being installed the first time, my radiion fixtures have easy slip on end caps so there is no rotating to install or remove. The two that failed had simply been placed in their spots and had the plastic cap slipped onto the end. So if the glue failed it was not due to anything I did... UPS bent my last shipping tube with fluoro's in half so yeah they suck (I used to work for em... yeah they suck, but all shippers suck ass IMO) but I got a total of 6 tubes in that shipment and the rest were ok. I kinda think that it is a prob with quality mfg at UVL, and if your tube went out it was prob destined to die from birth. But Im a sucker and bought 4 more.... we'll see


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 25, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Ohiogrown , I ant never got 6 ounces of one plant . Even with HID.


Damn you must be just starting out then lol , theres a dude here that claimed a few posts back "the one plant I had flowered got a LB off of it" ... lol we must be doing something wrong then if we're not pulling down "pounds" per plant


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## falcon223 (Jan 25, 2012)

This is the email I got back form Hellolighls. 
Hello 
Thank you for contacting us. If you'd like to try something else we can send them out to you today along with a prepaid shipping label that you can use to send the Red Sun bulbs back to us. 
If you'd like to send them back for a refund, I can email you a prepaid shipping label that you can use to send them back, and once we receive the bulbs we'll issue a refund.
Dan

I tried to make another order today and got some runaround. 

Ohio, I would like to know what you are useing for soil, and ferts, Thanks.






[HR][/HR]


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## falcon223 (Jan 25, 2012)

Yea Im an old fart.


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Damn you must be just starting out then lol , theres a dude here that claimed a few posts back "the one plant I had flowered got a LB off of it" ... lol we must be doing something wrong then if we're not pulling down "pounds" per plant


Holy crap!!!!!!! A pound off of only 1 plant under a T5???? I think I would have to see that to believe, I really doubt that it's even possible unless you were using a VHO fixture. Are you sure you weren't measuring in ounce????


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 25, 2012)

No man, read carefully... I was quoting a dude here that claimed HE pulled a pound off a plant... and that dude was *YOU*. post #2333

Granted its hard to tell sarcasm through print, but I dont think many would confuse a one ounce plant for a one pound plant.


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## asdmo (Jan 25, 2012)

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/grd/2816492446.html
$20 bucks a fxiture should i pick some up and go t5 crazy up in my tents?


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## Beagle (Jan 25, 2012)

How long was the pound yielding plant vegged for?


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 25, 2012)

asdmo said:


> http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lgb/grd/2816492446.html
> $20 bucks a fxiture should i pick some up and go t5 crazy up in my tents?


Damn thats a fuckin awesome deal, I scoped a few industrial lighting companies for High Bay t5 and HID fixtures and some would work pretty well. Those look perfect, I cant tell if they're HO 54w or NO 40w? I dont know what kinda selection they have in t5 NO bulbs, (I know my local petco only sells NO t5's so they do exist) Do they come with bulbs too? I'd get 4 -6 of em and go nuts dude!


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## falcon223 (Jan 25, 2012)

Some buddy is scratching there head rite now.


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## asdmo (Jan 25, 2012)

dude UC theres soo much stuff on craigslist. check this one out: 
http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sgv/for/2814038213.html
6 bulbs for 21 bucks! im going to email both these guys right now!


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## falcon223 (Jan 25, 2012)

Let see was that a LB, or OZ. And are those HO, or not.


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> No man, read carefully... I was quoting a dude here that claimed HE pulled a pound off a plant... and that dude was *YOU*. post #2333
> 
> Granted its hard to tell sarcasm through print, but I dont think many would confuse a one ounce plant for a one pound plant.


Ahhhhhh, only problem is, I'm not a dude!!!! That plant I harvested wasn't finished under T5 lighting though. If you would read carefully you would have seen that it was under a sodium light. And yeah, it was almost a LB! 11 oz. so roughly 3/4 LB!! Close. Weird, didn't you see the picture, posted about 2 pictures of them juicy flower?? There were roughly 7, 1 ounce colas on it next to a juice bottle for size. Can't you see.........dude??
This is the second time that you have tried to start shit with me for no reason whatsoever. Seriously, what's your deal??



BlueB said:


> I would also like to add that even though the 4ft T5 bulbs emit 54 watts or whatever of light, they are not emitting from a single point light source like HPS bulbs do. Therefore the intensity is going to be much much less. The light is spread out across a 4ft area. Moving the plants closer to the T5s will make up for the lack of intensity. I just flipped one of my plants under 2 red sun, 2 fiji, 4 flora sun to 12/12. Will see how the buds compare to my monsters under the HPS. Unfortunately all my monster buds got pollenated. The cutting I got must have been a mutant. I'm not sure what they are doing over seas with these strains, but it sure has been creating a lot of hermies. I'm off to go search for a cutting that is pure 100% female. No more of this mutant hermie trash. It's possible the HPS had something to do with the pollenation so if it happens under the T5 I know that it was just a trashy cut. I'm pretty down about it because the one plant I had flowered got a LB off of it. Now it is riddled with tiny hard seed crap.


Here is the post that you were quoting supposedly right? #2333, do you read well? I referred to HPS more than enough that if you actually read you would see that this monster plant was under a sodium light. Hmmmm, yeah, thought so. Nice try anyway. Gotta love the internet!
Hey MPP chime in here hommie!!!!



falcon223 said:


> Let see was that a LB, or OZ. And are those HO, or not.


READ MAN READ


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

Beagle said:


> How long was the pound yielding plant vegged for?


I think I had it going for about 2 months before flipping to 12/12. Had it real nice and bonzai'd to a bush so that it had all those colas, but they got really heavy and tipped over towards flush. Wasn't able to get a good flush in. On the positive side, I found out that it didn't get seeded after all. The things I thought were seeds were actually just the ovules that hadn't been pollenated yet. After that I realized that absolutely every female plant has these ovules and they are pretty much seeds that haven't gotten big yet. The bigger the plant/buds the bigger they are and they really looked like immature seeds at the time. Now that it's all dried they pretty much disappeared and are unnoticeable. I looked at some other dried bud I had laying around and the calyx's were filled with them also. Learn somethin new every day anyway.


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## asdmo (Jan 25, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I think I had it going for about 2 months before flipping to 12/12. Had it real nice and bonzai'd to a bush so that it had all those colas, but they got really heavy and tipped over towards flush. Wasn't able to get a good flush in. On the positive side, I found out that it didn't get seeded after all. The things I thought were seeds were actually just the ovules that hadn't been pollenated yet. After that I realized that absolutely every female plant has these ovules and they are pretty much seeds that haven't gotten big yet. The bigger the plant/buds the bigger they are and they really looked like immature seeds at the time. Now that it's all dried they pretty much disappeared and are unnoticeable. I looked at some other dried bud I had laying around and the calyx's were filled with them also. Learn somethin new every day anyway.


Did those "seeds" look like bananas?


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 25, 2012)

lol yeah I saw that it said HPS in your original post, and I had originally quoted it in response to someone _else_ who mentioned that they'd never pulled 6oz off a single plant before, _even with HID_... playfully referencing it as if to say "damn we all must be doing something wrong then" I just thought it humorous that you thought that it had to have been an exageration or mistake for someone to claim a full pound .... and 11oz isnt quite 16oz. 
I only mentioned it in the first place because a 1lb plant is almost unheard of for even the most experienced indoor growers.
And I only responded to your question - if I had mistaken a pound for an ounce - to clarify that I had never claimed that harvest, and to point out that the person I was originally quoting was infact yourself. I thought the whole thing was quite funny.


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

asdmo said:


> Did those "seeds" look like bananas?


No, they looked like immature seeds. There was only one banana on the whole plant and only one male flower. Next time you flower, take a real close look at the inside of a calyx and on the very bottom inside the calyx, still attached to the hair you will find the ovule. This IS the seed before it gets pollenated and starts to grow into an actual seed. It's pretty cool. It makes me realize though that every single calyx on every single female plant is filled with seeds. We all be smokin seeds. When the buds dry they pretty much shrink so much that you don't notice.


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> lol yeah I saw that it said HPS in your original post, and I had originally quoted it in response to someone _else_ who mentioned that they'd never pulled 6oz off a single plant before, _even with HID_... playfully referencing it as if to say "damn we all must be doing something wrong then" I just thought it humorous that you thought that it had to have been an exageration or mistake for someone to claim a full pound .... and 11oz isnt quite 16oz.
> I only mentioned it in the first place because a 1lb plant is almost unheard of for even the most experienced indoor growers.
> And I only responded to your question - if I had mistaken a pound for an ounce - to clarify that I had never claimed that harvest, and to point out that the person I was originally quoting was infact yourself. I thought the whole thing was quite funny.


Hahaha, yeah ya lost me a little bit but anyway the one pound I thought I would pull off was an estimate since when I said that I was in the middle of chopping when fresh. It only finished drying today actually so I finally got the weight. I think that 11 oz is pretty close for guessing anyway. I also got 1/4 of some nice kief. Overall, it's the most I've pulled off of one plant ever. I wish it could have finished all the way. The trichromes were only 50% milky and 50% clear. Still had a couple weeks left at least. Oh well, maybe next time. The quality is nowhere near what it is when grown outside. I am hoping that will change under my T5 setup for the next time. Bring it on UVb.

So do you still got that Fruity Juice strain going? Is that the same Sativa one from Sensi Seeds? Looks like a good one to try.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 25, 2012)

BlueB said:


> ... still got that Fruity Juice strain going? Is that the same Sativa one from Sensi Seeds? Looks like a good one to try.


Just shed her seed shell yesterday and is getting used to her grodan cube, was a freebie with the lucky 7 @ attitude, 90% indica, Im gonna try to stick with short bushy indica's. http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Fruity_Chronic_Juice/Delicious_Seeds/


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

The secret to getting a pound off of one plant is to prune, top, transplant, prune, top, transplant until you have a giant bush in a 20 gallon container. Yes, it will take up your entire grow room and it takes a lot more time, but it is fun pulling a lot of giant buds off of one plant. The most I've heard someone pulling off of one plant is 2 pounds, but the plant was around 12 feet tall and about 7 feet wide and grown outside. This will not work for the T5 method due to the lack of penetration, nothing a little side lighting can't fix.


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## BlueB (Jan 25, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Just shed her seed shell yesterday and is getting used to her grodan cube, was a freebie with the lucky 7 @ attitude, 90% indica, Im gonna try to stick with short bushy indica's. http://en.seedfinder.eu/strain-info/Fruity_Chronic_Juice/Delicious_Seeds/


Here is the one I was referring to.
http://sensiseeds.com/cannabis-seeds/sensi-seeds/fruity-juice


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## pedro420 (Jan 25, 2012)

BlueB said:


> The secret to getting a pound off of one plant is to prune, top, transplant, prune, top, transplant until you have a giant bush in a 20 gallon container. Yes, it will take up your entire grow room and it takes a lot more time, but it is fun pulling a lot of giant buds off of one plant. The most I've heard someone pulling off of one plant is 2 pounds, but the plant was around 12 feet tall and about 7 feet wide and grown outside. This will not work for the T5 method due to the lack of penetration, nothing a little side lighting can't fix.


There is a guy on here somewhere who literly grew a tree it was taller than his house and was about 9/10 feet wide he said he pulled almost 8 pounds off her the main stem was the size of his arm in the pics


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## falcon223 (Jan 26, 2012)

Well I got every one beat. I got a monster in the grow room that is for sure going to give me close to an,[ wait is that a LB. or an OZ ] Yea it is a once. I will try to get a pic up soon. Could be an once and a half. But it is my favorite plant in there. There is all ways one you just love more then the rest. 
All my plants under the t5 look great, I even have a fern that is going crazy, never got a fern to live this long.


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## PetFlora (Jan 26, 2012)

BlueB said:


> You sure you don't have thrips? Do you use way more fertilizer than neccessary?


No bugs. Ferting at 750 in a soil medium- could not find out what though. If anything, I may be too low, though I am seeing some tip burn, which could be pH- using aeroponic mix pHed at 5.6, which is probably way low for soil.. Been > 2 weeks with a functioning meter. My new meter would not calibrate. They sent a new probe, but it did not help. Sent the meter back yesterday

Have you investigated Air Pots? They could save you a lot of transplanting


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## AltarNation (Jan 26, 2012)

Hey guys, looking for some opinions on somethin.. I just got a new tent and it's so tall I don't think I'll utilize the entire thing with my T5's needing to be so close to the buds. Since penetration is minimal with T5's, I'm not going to be growing really tall in this tent unless I back-hang the T5's vertically or something. I don't really want to do that, though, since it requires I veg out for so long and I don't really have the time for that, so to speak.

So what I am thinking is, I'd like to work with the tent's parameters (a little larger than 2x4x7) and I was considering building some kind of metal grated platform halfway up... then I'd buy a second 8-bulb fixture and do two floors of T5 awesomeness and then go 12/12 from clone to control height and ensure a tight canopy for the T5's. It also eliminates the veg time... which is critical for me, because I am trying to keep up with my own usage at this point and I haven't gotten ahead of the curve yet as a grower... (ie, I probably won't have enough to last til next harvest as it is.)

So here's what i'm wondering... increase footprint AND lights, or just lights?

Because the other option is, I could buy two 4-bulb fixtures and hang them vertically at the back and front of the existing setup. Then I'd have 16 bulbs on a single 2x4 footprint.

Anyone have any idea which of these options would yield better? Let's assume I'd go SOG 12/12 from clone on the latter setup as well.

I'm tempted to go for the two-floor arrangement... I'm thinking the yield would be better in this arrangement but I might be way off... so just wondering if anyone ahs any input on those options.


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## BlueB (Jan 26, 2012)

I could honestly care less about yield. My friend grew this same strain outdoors last summer and it went a lot longer and had time to finish. They only pulled about 1/8 ounce from the plant but the flavor was amazing. It doesn't even taste like the same smoke. The medicinal properties are 100 fold in quality. I now know why. Read this article. http://www.counterpunch.org/2011/07/14/how-cannabis-works/


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 26, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I'm tempted to go for the two-floor arrangement...


and I think you'd prob be better off that way. If you could double your harvest freq then you'd obviously double your yield. but with the size of the buds you're pulling right now, do you think they would double with the addition of sidelighting? Im sure they would benefit greatly but I dont know if a few sidelights (which I use myself) would be able to take a well performing plant to be a super-mongo performer. if you had 2 levels, with 4-5 plants on each level, you could possibly harvest a full plant every 2 weeks

...my 2-3cents


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## falcon223 (Jan 26, 2012)

Well when you grow with t5s you should try to keep your plants short.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 26, 2012)

Well Hellolights jacked with me, I ordered 4 on Saturday then called today to wonder where my tracking number was... oh we're out of stock. Ok well why wouldnt you tell me that you're out of stock when ordering, uh yeah hold on while I go find em elsewhere. So I find em elsewhere on ebay and order those, then Hellolights calls me and says oh yeah we do have em afterall?? Too late! I had already ordered them elsewhere... long story and several fuckups by shitty online stores later and I now should have 2 red suns, 2 Giessemann AquaFlora's and 2 AquaMedic Plant Grow's on the way, so Ill be able to report the differences between them (the red suns will be the most visibly red as the other two still have some blue in them making them purplish, but they're both red heavy and their red is 660nm so yay!)


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## falcon223 (Jan 26, 2012)

Yea that is what I did, Just try to get bulbs with red in them. I saw a Roseate bulb that was supposed be in the 750nm rang.


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## RC7 (Jan 26, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Yea that is what I did, Just try to get bulbs with red in them. I saw a Roseate bulb that was supposed be in the 750nm rang.


Hey falcon nice plant! how many watts of t5 was that grown with?


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## Phaeton (Jan 26, 2012)

I am using Red Sun, Flora Sun, and Roseate 650 tubes in 48".

Red sun should be called orange sun, 630 nm is closer to red than HPS but still in the orange section. 630 nm is pretty much all it puts out, bright orange.
Flora sun is red, starts with 630 nm orange then doubles this output at 660 nm, red, genuine red.
Roseate 650, half the output is in the red region, no peaks, smooth even pink light. Nice medium output, works well with clones.

I use several more fluorescents, but for red the Flora Sun out performs them all. I checked with a red light meter (solarmeter 9.6) to be sure.


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## BlueB (Jan 26, 2012)

RC7 said:


> Hey falcon nice plant! how many watts of t5 was that grown with?


zero, that's not T5 grown, he said that's how short you want to keep them all.

What strain is that?, nice n stocky.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 26, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Yea that is what I did, Just try to get bulbs with red in them. I saw a Roseate bulb that was supposed be in the 750nm rang.


All 750? damn, that might put out alotta heat. I consider the Coral waves a blue bulb with a little 760nm bonus. Im with you on getting bulbs with red. The red sun is the only one Ive seen that is almost all red, the rest I still consider primarily a blue bulb with whatever else comes with, so I need bulbs with as much red as possible to keep the spectrum from getting too blue heavy (look at almost any SPD and they all have a big bump in the blue end). I think blue is a dime a dozen, the red peaks (and their strength/weight/location compared to green/yellow) is what you gotta look at in your tube. Unless your panel is all red sun's, you're gonna have blue and green no matter what so its all about getting enough of the full red spectrum (630nm and up). I think this applies to both veg and flower (moreso in flower, obviously) but you're not gonna get the best possible results in veg if your spectrum is dominated by blue... With a blue heavy panel full of actinics, your plants would grow short and squatty with tight internodal distances, but with the proper red spectrum provided, they would grow just as compact but much faster.

Phaeton, I like your bulbs, and may get some rosettes for myself soon. But the red suns look pretty red to me, even next to other bulbs. Chlorophyll responds well to 630-660 so I'd say the red suns are a pretty good choice for PAR (just shoddy quality). And technically above 610nm is considered red. I dont really see any orange in my red suns.



BlueWave, RedSun, CoralWave, RedWave


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## BlueB (Jan 26, 2012)

Phaeton said:


> I am using Red Sun, Flora Sun, and Roseate 650 tubes in 48".
> 
> Red sun should be called orange sun, 630 nm is closer to red than HPS but still in the orange section. 630 nm is pretty much all it puts out, bright orange.
> Flora sun is red, starts with 630 nm orange then doubles this output at 660 nm, red, genuine red.
> ...


Flora Suns are indeed the best on the market for your money for getting that deeper red in there. They work, and that's all there is to it. The Red Sun IS a 630nm bulb, specifically and very orange. I really don't think having only one wavelength peak in a bulb is as beneficial as an entire range in the red nm area would be like 630nm to 690nm, then tapering off at 740nm. The only reason we see those Flora Suns so bright is because all the other wasted light they put out, lots of green and middle spectrum. Just remember that the Flora Suns have a lot of blue in them already so I really doubt you would need to add anything else except for maybe right towards the last couple weeks of finishing add some UVb in there.

Currently I have 4 Flora Suns, 2 Red Sun and 2 Fiji Purple in the fixture on 12/12. I was thinking of just taking out the Red Sun altogether and throwing in 2 more Flora Sun. Has anyone noticed any real improvements or benefit with having the Red Suns in there? The Flora Suns already have that 630nm in them along with everything else inbetween 600 and 660 so why not add more of the whole range and what the plant really wants rather than only one peak??????????? When you look at the absorption graph for photosynthesis the 660nm peak is much higher than the 630nm peak so obviously the 660nm range drives photosynthesis more. If that Ultra Growth Wave graph for the bulb that is coming out is right, then it seems like it would really be the only bulb a person would need other than for finishing with some UVb. All these different bulbs we are using in these grows is getting rather confusing and it seems like we could really use some correct tools for the process no? Why don't we all just start a fund raiser and have that Wave Point company make us a better bulb. The bulbs are really designed around aquariums therefore they have much more blue in them for penetrating the water. Ocean life NEEDS blue light because that's the only light that makes it to the bottom for the most part. Terrestrial plants favor the red light and less of the blue spectrum more since they are not under water. It's like we are trying to make a boat out of a car, or build a house out of toothpicks, we really need some custom made bulbs that have the exact wavelengths necessary.


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## BlueB (Jan 26, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Well Hellolights jacked with me, I ordered 4 on Saturday then called today to wonder where my tracking number was... oh we're out of stock. Ok well why wouldnt you tell me that you're out of stock when ordering, uh yeah hold on while I go find em elsewhere. So I find em elsewhere on ebay and order those, then Hellolights calls me and says oh yeah we do have em afterall?? Too late! I had already ordered them elsewhere... long story and several fuckups by shitty online stores later and I now should have 2 red suns, 2 Giessemann AquaFlora's and 2 AquaMedic Plant Grow's on the way, so Ill be able to report the differences between them (the red suns will be the most visibly red as the other two still have some blue in them making them purplish, but they're both red heavy and their red is 660nm so yay!)


The Flora Suns are pretty much identical to the aqua medics plant grow and half the price. There is no 660nm peak in the gieseman aqua floras bulb though, those are pretty much 6000K or 6500K type of bulb. The plant grow already has the whole 630 and 660 range, so why not just use those? I'm tempted to try a mixture of just Flora Suns and Red Suns for flower, then tossing the Fiji's back in along with some actinic 420 for the finish.


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## hyroot (Jan 26, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Well Hellolights jacked with me, I ordered 4 on Saturday then called today to wonder where my tracking number was... oh we're out of stock. Ok well why wouldnt you tell me that you're out of stock when ordering, uh yeah hold on while I go find em elsewhere. So I find em elsewhere on ebay and order those, then Hellolights calls me and says oh yeah we do have em afterall?? Too late! I had already ordered them elsewhere... long story and several fuckups by shitty online stores later and I now should have 2 red suns, 2 Giessemann AquaFlora's and 2 AquaMedic Plant Grow's on the way, so Ill be able to report the differences between them (the red suns will be the most visibly red as the other two still have some blue in them making them purplish, but they're both red heavy and their red is 660nm so yay!)


Same thing happened to me. They were out of fiji purps. Then I emaled to complain. They didnt show up with my order. But there was a letter that I found later that said te fijis were being sent straight from the factory. When hellolights emails you its not really a new email. They make a comment on te original email when they contact you if something is wrong or what ever. So you have to log in on their site to see it. Any way hellolights is real cool. Keep in mind its just one person tht run te shop and handles everything. I had one bulb that did not work. He replaced it and he paid the shipping and I got it in 2 days. I even asked him if he wantedvte broken bulb back so he could send it to the factory. He said it was cool dont worry about it. Oh it was a ati aquablue special tht did not work. So just from that experience. Thats my favorite place to deal with. Like I said it just one guy so give him a chance to reapond and what not. Best customer service


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## falcon223 (Jan 27, 2012)

Hi all. That little plant is my favorite one. She is under the t5 now , but was grown under a 600 watt HPS. 
The sad thing is that was the only female I got out of those seeds. So I kept one male and Cross pollinated , the AK, WW, BQ.
Now I may have to scrape the hole grow. Got seeds every where. So many seeds so little time.
That is a Cluster bomb.
Thanks for the heads up on the flora suns.


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## hyroot (Jan 27, 2012)

About a week ago I started 24/0 veg. I never tried it in my life. I always did 18/6. they were droopy the 2nd day but by the following day they were perky again and have stayed perky. Of course reaching more towards the light than ever before. They really seem to like the actinics more on 24/0. That could be just the strain too. I am seeing tighter nodes and much much faster growth. Im stoked....... From everything I read on the subject. Everything was saying that there would be tighter nodes but in 18/6 they get taller faster from using stored energy while they sleep. In my case they got taller faster and since nodes are tighter. That means more budsites faster. Maybe its the bulbs too


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## PetFlora (Jan 27, 2012)

I had always vegged under 18/6. I tried the 24/0 for 3 weeks, but did not notice the results I hoped for (using UFO 90- mostly red, supplemented with 2 43 watt day light cfls). I now veg under 20/4. Maybe it's psychological, but I think they need some darkness, but 24/0 under actinic may up the ante. I could try shutting down the UFO and running all day light cfls.


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## PetFlora (Jan 27, 2012)

Check these out: New from Philips Solstice. Made in USA! Separate Driver handles up to 3 LED fixtures http://www.globaltechled.com/led-grow-light.php


Linear Bulbs for T5? Alas, no 600-660 http://www.globaltechled.com/linear-led-lights.php 




Cheap solution to our 660 woes? Alas, coverage would be an issue, but... 90w UFO all 660s ($135!): http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=399

_What about 2 of these UFO 660s + 2 @ 4 bulb T5 fixtures (keep them together during veg, then separate during flower) placing the 2 UFO 660s in between? Unless of course the Ultra Suns actually make it here soon. 
_


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## BlueB (Jan 27, 2012)

hyroot said:


> About a week ago I started 24/0 veg. I never tried it in my life. I always did 18/6. they were droopy the 2nd day but by the following day they were perky again and have stayed perky. Of course reaching more towards the light than ever before. They really seem to like the actinics more on 24/0. That could be just the strain too. I am seeing tighter nodes and much much faster growth. Im stoked....... From everything I read on the subject. Everything was saying that there would be tighter nodes but in 18/6 they get taller faster from using stored energy while they sleep. In my case they got taller faster and since nodes are tighter. That means more budsites faster. Maybe its the bulbs too


I've grown under 24/0 before with astonishing results. The only thing is they need to be watered more frequently. I have read somewhere about plants liking some darkness to process stored energy or ATF? But I have NEVER noticed plants not liking the 24/0 cycle. I agree that they stretch more when the light is off. I'm still mixed about which is better 24/0 or 18/6 and haven't seen any proof of which is better. I do know that my cuttings root almost twice as fast under 24/0. And what about Alaska? We all know about the monster produce and buds that come from AK. They have pretty much 24/0 daylight during the grow cycle and it is 100% natural there. I'm still not convinced that plants need any darkness during the grow cycle.


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## Phaeton (Jan 27, 2012)

I saw UV fluorescents mentioned. I found a new T5 HO in UVB.

54 watts, 12% UVB, twice the UVB as a reptisun 10 as well as twice the visible light. Arcadia D3+, available in america from Lightyourreptiles.com.
I am running 20 of the reptisun's, these will cut the usage in half if they are as advertised. I have 4 of them coming in for testing. $45 each, but reptisuns run $30 each so these are the better deal.

I though I would toss this out there for the UVB growers, this is only the second HO bulb I have found and the first I could purchase in USA, kinda stoked.

My surround is UVB and red, going all T5 and losing the T8's will be a good thing.


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## PetFlora (Jan 27, 2012)

Bought a Florosun at Petsmart ($21.99+ tax). It looks bright white. I was expecting bright red.


OMG I tried several times to post one pic of this DIY. It's on another site. What an amazing idea and the execution is first class https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4857222#post4857222


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## BlueB (Jan 27, 2012)

Phaeton said:


> I saw UV fluorescents mentioned. I found a new T5 HO in UVB.
> 
> 54 watts, 12% UVB, twice the UVB as a reptisun 10 as well as twice the visible light. Arcadia D3+, available in america from Lightyourreptiles.com.
> I am running 20 of the reptisun's, these will cut the usage in half if they are as advertised. I have 4 of them coming in for testing. $45 each, but reptisuns run $30 each so these are the better deal.
> ...


So do you only turn on the reptile light at beginning and end of light cycle? and for how long do you leave them on? do you just leave them on all the time? i've heard a few people say before that plants can only handle certain types of light at early and late of the ON cycle. I don't know if anyone has even tested this idea or if that's what you do with reptile bulbs. ive heard some people say they use 2 timers and only turn on some lights for a short period to emulate dawn and dusk, or midday hours..........i really have no idea either way though..........what works best for you?


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## BlueB (Jan 27, 2012)

I just switched out my fixture again today to try something new for flower mode. 4 Flora Sun, 1 Fiji Purple 2 Red Sun, 1 Plant Grow. Then I have 2 more plant grows on each side of the plant for side lighting in a 2-bulb fixture. The top fixture is very red while the side lighting has more blue in it, should be able to see if the side lighting has any positive effects on bud density under the canopy. I'm going to throw 2 actinics in there in place of the Red Suns at the least 2 weeks for extra UVb, or REPTISUNS?????? Who here has had some positive results doing this, do the UVb bulbs really produce a more sticky icky?


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## falcon223 (Jan 27, 2012)

Well you know that we love cana porn , so where are the pics? At least a pic of the lights.


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## falcon223 (Jan 27, 2012)

Your plant are , lets say domesticated, So they really don't know what daylight cycle is . They have never been in the reel world.
They depend on you to provide for them and protect them. They do how ever react to what is going on around them.


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## mipainpatient (Jan 27, 2012)

Phaeton said:


> I saw UV fluorescents mentioned. I found a new T5 HO in UVB.
> 
> 54 watts, 12% UVB, twice the UVB as a reptisun 10 as well as twice the visible light. Arcadia D3+, available in america from Lightyourreptiles.com.
> I am running 20 of the reptisun's, these will cut the usage in half if they are as advertised. I have 4 of them coming in for testing. $45 each, but reptisuns run $30 each so these are the better deal.
> ...


Thanks Kindly! Just got some nice mountain strain seeds and I may wait for the UV t5s to show to sprout em 
MPP

edit:
That is kinda a sweet graph too, at least, if you were coming in thinking you were ONLY getting UVb...just nice to see the ~440 blue peak


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## BlueB (Jan 27, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> Thanks Kindly! Just got some nice mountain strain seeds and I may wait for the UV t5s to show to sprout em
> MPP
> 
> edit:
> ...


Ahh, thank you for posting that, I will have to order a couple of those.


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## BlueB (Jan 28, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Well you know that we love cana porn , so where are the pics? At least a pic of the lights.


canopy under T5 mixture with CFL 65w plant grow lighting on the side,






here is the color analysis with the added red sun in place of the plant grow T5 along with the additional side lighting with the 65w plant grow,






photo of the canopy with T5 lights off,


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## PetFlora (Jan 28, 2012)

This observation is highly flawed so if someone can do an actual before & after comparo ..

I installed the FloroSun in position 5 in my BB 8 bulb@ ~ 2pm yesterday (light is on 12/12). Pos 5 was previously occupied by the Coral Wave, the best place left for the CW was position 7. 

Unfortunately, I did not think to carefully examine the 2 plants under flower at the change over. So, the FS is right next to a Red Sun pos 6 capped by a ATI Actinic Blue Special in pos 4.

Well, I checked them @ ~ 11 AM this morning and noticed a significant increase of new pistils, not only that but that appear heartier (beefier/thicker). And they appear all over from top to the very bottom buds, even those on the bottom branches (~ 16" below the T5 bulbs), nearest the main stalk, that aren't getting any light!

Just checked again, and resin production seems to have gone crazy, too.

Can somebody do a before & after with a similar bulb change?


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## PetFlora (Jan 28, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> Thanks Kindly! Just got some nice mountain strain seeds and I may wait for the UV t5s to show to sprout em
> MPP
> 
> 
> ...



The peak @ ~ 550 is sweet too.


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## BlueB (Jan 28, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> This observation is highly flawed so if someone can do an actual before & after comparo ..
> 
> I installed the FloroSun in position 5 in my BB 8 bulb@ ~ 2pm yesterday (light is on 12/12). Pos 5 was previously occupied by the Coral Wave, the best place left for the CW was position 7.
> 
> ...


I already posted photos with the flora sun switch. They are after all, made for plant growth. They WILL increase growth within 24 hours because they contain the deep red that plants use. The coral wave bulbs you are using ARE actinic bulbs meant for coral, hence the name coral wave. That little bit of infra-red in the coral waves is minimal and not going to create exhibited growth. The coral waves DO NOT have the red spectrum that plants need and that's why your plants started doing better when you switched them out for a flora sun bulb. If you are going to use the coral wave bulb, do not bother to put in any other actinics because coral waves are an actinic bulb, hope this makes sense. The Fiji Purple is like a Coral Wave and Blue Plus mixed together bulb making it a better option for your T5 fixture. Plus it has a little red in there. I am going with 4 Flora Sun, 1 Fiji Purple, and 3 Red Sun in my fixture. The Flora Sun already have the blue peaks along with the entire blue spectrum of the Fiji Purple so that's why I'm only keeping the 1 Fiji Purple in the fixture for now. It seems to be providing a sufficient amount of blue. Later, I will be switching out the Red Sun bulbs for 2 Coral Waves, and 2 UVb bulb maybe.


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## BlueB (Jan 28, 2012)

Here's a few must reads and a must watch,

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/budding-cycle/71198-elaboration-phytochemical-process-makes-thc.html

http://www.420magazine.com/forums/cabinet-closet-grow-room-setup/79209-uvb-light-whats-real-story.html

https://www.greenpassion.org/index.php?/topic/26244-methods-for-increasing-potency/page__p__338927__fromsearch__1#entry338927

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfiI78uN3Ks

explains why HPS sucks for THC production and why UVb is necessary.

this guy ultimately says to only use UVb lights for 5 hours during the "noon" time of the light cycle. I think I'm going to stick with 4 hours on and 20 hours off, overlapping the "noon" cycle with the T5's. That means I'm going to need some single bulb fixture. It really sounds like without UVb you're not doing your buds any justice.


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## gamereaper (Jan 28, 2012)

All i have to add to this long post is green and other light is there so you can see your plants... and make sure there the right colors


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## mipainpatient (Jan 28, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Here's a few must reads and a must watch,
> 
> http://www.420magazine.com/forums/budding-cycle/71198-elaboration-phytochemical-process-makes-thc.html
> 
> ...


Grave mistakes can be made overlooking the involvement in genetics and UVb response mechanisms. Choose mountain strains for best results imho.
mpp


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## BlueB (Jan 28, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> Grave mistakes can be made overlooking the involvement in genetics and UVb response mechanisms. Choose mountain strains for best results imho.
> mpp


Hawaii has 4 times more UVb than the mainland. This goes for all tropical zones including the non-mountainous ones. I don't think you need to have a "mountain strain" in order to make good use of UVb. I know what you are saying though. I am willing to bet that all cannabis strains benefit from having UVb added to the noon-time hours for short increments to simulate direct sunlight and to stimulate the production of THC and the highly valued and important and over looked terpenes. Yes, a plant on a mountain will be exposed to UVb in greater quantities (especially on a mountain in the tropics) but it also would have a higher intensity in all other wavelengths as well, not just UVb.


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## BlueB (Jan 28, 2012)

Here is what the same strain looks like under HPS as a reminder. Can't wait to see the color/quality/aroma/medicinal differences between the HPS and T5 in about 66 days or so.


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## tehshyt (Jan 28, 2012)

BlueB said:


> canopy under T5 mixture with CFL 65w plant grow lighting on the side,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



are there missing pictures here?


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## BlueB (Jan 28, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> are there missing pictures here?


i cropped all the images together so it could be seen without having to scroll down a whole page, the side lighting is under the T5 mixture. it's just one plant that's had the bonsai treatment if that's what Youre wondering??????LOL

I noticed some strange new growth and i'm not sure what to do about it. It was like the new growth was growing with holes or tears in the leaves. They've stopped reaching as much for the light fixture. I took out the red suns and put the ultra suns back in so now its back to 50/50 ultra/flora plus 1 fiji purple. It would be nice if someone would take a close up of their canopy with NATURAL LIGHT to compare. I keep going back and forth liking and then not liking the red sun bulb, I'm not noticing if it's helping or hurting, all I know is the growth perks up again after switching them back out for the ultras................hmmmmmmm, what to do what to do, so far I haven't been really seeing anyone on here say the red suns have been beneficial or if it's not red enough and then some people actually say the bulb is crap


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## mipainpatient (Jan 28, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Hawaii has 4 times more UVb than the mainland. This goes for all tropical zones including the non-mountainous ones. I don't think you need to have a "mountain strain" in order to make good use of UVb. I know what you are saying though. I am willing to bet that all cannabis strains benefit from having UVb added to the noon-time hours for short increments to simulate direct sunlight and to stimulate the production of THC and the highly valued and important and over looked terpenes. Yes, a plant on a mountain will be exposed to UVb in greater quantities (especially on a mountain in the tropics) but it also would have a higher intensity in all other wavelengths as well, not just UVb.


I only say mountain strains because that is what I and others have tested. Many sativa doms that have been bred for the last 30 years under HPS have shown adverse reactions to UVb levels easily tolerated by Kush/afghanica strains. My personal opinion, take it or leave it. I know tropical strains/hybrids (don't forget those tropical strains can have mountain genes from decades/centuries-old seed trading---a great human tradition) that do great, and many academic studies have correlated UVb balanced sun emulation to increase terpenoid precursors which result in increased volatiles production (it just straight up smells better). I can easily smell out medicine grown with blue light vs not. And honestly where you find blue you often find the UVs, I know we hear UVa is useless but until rigorous study has been performed, let us just assume that the PAR/PUR graph doesn't just plummet after the magical 400nm threshold is crossed (chlorophyl absorption, in my eyes, continues at reasonable rates into the UVa range---rates that seem comparable in the CO2 tests to 500-600nm aka yellow/green "high penetration" <--this because of the leaf reflectivity phenomenon amply discussed in previous posts by yours truly. I also submit that as a photon of 400-500 nm wavelengths carry more energy/unit than their 500+ counterparts = ignoring morphology stuff just for a moment pls thnks. If the UVa is also high PUR light, then it should be even higher energy than the blues, possibly to a point that it would more quickly overwhelm the photosynthetic electron transport systems. Not trying to rant just to sound smart, I'm just trying to explain why I like that UV t5 so much. If all that 280-400 is useful to the plants, at a reasonable distance to avoid oversaturation, this could be a great development. 
Not saying this means anything but as per this map:

It would seem to me that Hawaii isn't that far off from much of the Kush mountains with regards to UV index, it would be an elevation thing from there. I'm with you on the tropical strains producing terpenoids to deal with the UV, as above the hybridization may also result in them overproducing glands like the mountain ones probably HAVE TO DO. But yea a lot of the terps have UV protective capacities too. The main function I see however is the insect/fungus/microbe repelling properties they have. That would seem so much more important in the tropics where humidity, bugs, and bacteria are just waiting to have their share.
Anyhow, I've always like that the coral market bulbs have little UV spikes, thanks for the flora sun tip btw, I got some coming to see if I can correlate a morphological change like you reported.
I'm done ranting for tonight, all the best,
MPP


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

Aren't most Hawaiian strains sativa dominant? I thought maui waui and others were sativa, what places are the Sativa native to?


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## PetFlora (Jan 29, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I already posted photos with the flora sun switch. They are after all, made for plant growth. They WILL increase growth within 24 hours because they contain the deep red that plants use. The coral wave bulbs you are using ARE actinic bulbs meant for coral, hence the name coral wave. That little bit of infra-red in the coral waves is minimal and not going to create exhibited growth. The coral waves DO NOT have the red spectrum that plants need and that's why your plants started doing better when you switched them out for a flora sun bulb. If you are going to use the coral wave bulb, do not bother to put in any other actinics because coral waves are an actinic bulb, hope this makes sense. The Fiji Purple is like a Coral Wave and Blue Plus mixed together bulb making it a better option for your T5 fixture. Plus it has a little red in there. I am going with 4 Flora Sun, 1 Fiji Purple, and 3 Red Sun in my fixture. The Flora Sun already have the blue peaks along with the entire blue spectrum of the Fiji Purple so that's why I'm only keeping the 1 Fiji Purple in the fixture for now. It seems to be providing a sufficient amount of blue. Later, I will be switching out the Red Sun bulbs for 2 Coral Waves, and 2 UVb bulb maybe.


Prior to this change, the CW was abutted by 2 Red Suns, so even though they look red, they aren't providing the same red nms as the FS, which looks bright white. Odd, but true. This morning tons more trich production and bud swelling. Ima get me another FS today!


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## PetFlora (Jan 29, 2012)

BlueB said:


> i cropped all the images together so it could be seen without having to scroll down a whole page, the side lighting is under the T5 mixture. it's just one plant that's had the bonsai treatment if that's what Youre wondering??????LOL
> 
> I noticed some strange new growth and i'm not sure what to do about it. It was like the new growth was growing with holes or tears in the leaves. They've stopped reaching as much for the light fixture. I took out the red suns and put the ultra suns back in so now its back to 50/50 ultra/flora plus 1 fiji purple. It would be nice if someone would take a close up of their canopy with NATURAL LIGHT to compare. I keep going back and forth liking and then not liking the red sun bulb, I'm not noticing if it's helping or hurting, all I know is the growth perks up again after switching them back out for the ultras................hmmmmmmm, what to do what to do, so far I haven't been really seeing anyone on here say the red suns have been beneficial or if it's not red enough and then some people actually say the bulb is crap


I think the benefit of Red Suns (or not) has to do with how much blue coverage you have. I went with 2 ATI Aqua Blue Specials + 2 Red Suns = pseudo Fiji + 2 CWs (later removed one CW), but probably did not have enough red (or too much blue), so adding the FS kicked up bud production, so will get another FS and replace one of the ATI ABS.


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## Calrt (Jan 29, 2012)

Well I just did a partial harvest of the T5 tent and the trics were cloudy and turning amber. Only 7 weeks at 12/12. It is super sticky and stinky! The HPS looks like it will go 8 weeks. Pics to come later!


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

Calrt said:


> Well I just did a partial harvest of the T5 tent and the trics were cloudy and turning amber. Only 7 weeks at 12/12. It is super sticky and stinky! The HPS looks like it will go 8 weeks. Pics to come later!


What bulbs are you using for flower? Have you found any particular optimal bulb mixture?


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## PetFlora (Jan 29, 2012)

I went to 3 stores in search of another FloroSun today, but no luck. Local stores- petco/smart/supermarket all have pathetic bulb inventory. One place called All Fish Emporium had a variety of bulbs, but no zoomeds.

I did pick up a 50 watt uvb reptile bulb to add to in one corner of my seedlings/clones closet, which is; 2 x 2 x 5, fully lined with ref Mylar. Sockets in 4 corners midway up/down for side/underside cfl lighting + my 2+ yo UFO 90 hanging from the top. Damn uvb cfl was $18. Got it on a separate timer, along with the other 3 cfl side light bulbs @ 4 hrs per day (12-4) . The UFO will stay on 24/0. Could be interesting.

Just moved one Monster Cropping Clone from the closet to my T5 rig, where it will be growing in an HPA (high pressure aero) pod. It's pretty cutting edge. I am excited to see what the 2 will do in tandem. I have one of my X seedlings in there now (female Sat dom + Indica male). It is growing like a mofo. Alas, it is a male, but have several others getting ready to move in.


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## falcon223 (Jan 29, 2012)

[h=1]AquaticLife T5 HO 10000K 700+ nm[/h]Might be good for flower.


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

aquamedic,
why not just use these?





it really seems like a person should be able to get away with using actinic/plant grow in a 25/75 ratio. like 6 plant grows and 2 actinics, or Fiji purple instead of actinic.
http://www.aqua-medic.de/index.php?r=catalog/product&id=216


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

How about 6 flora suns(or plant grows) and 2 coral wave? Seems like it would work.............has all the peaks right???????
How about 4 flora suns and 4 coral waves in a 50/50 mixture,





I'm gonna leave the 50/50 flora, coral in there for a few days to see what happens. I know a few people have reported that the corals initiate flower response because of the small IR peak in them? I wouldn't be surprised if ALL actinic bulbs have this IR peak as well. I don't know, seems like a lot of blue


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 29, 2012)

So after waiting a month and a half for more suretogrow my hopes of cloning went down the tubes, I had to start with new genetics from seed. 

Here's 3 weeks under 216w 
1x 454nm
1x Super Actinic 420nm
2x Redsuns

P.s I just started to flip every other day from the outside 4 tubes 420+, 454, & Redsuns.... to the inside 4 tubes 454, 75.25, Fiji & 420+... to give more spectrum, In my opinion they're still to small to receive all 432w.


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

what light mixture is this? or is it just an incandescent coming from somewhere else??????


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jan 29, 2012)

^

It's a 175w Mh


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> ^
> 
> It's a 175w Mh


Your plants always look really nice.


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## falcon223 (Jan 29, 2012)

Undercurrent, I am poping seeds right now under 430 watts t5. Don't get to close to the light. They like it just fine.

I got to say that all my plants under the t5 are doing very well. Thy are one week behind the plants under 600 watts HPS. and
have way more bud sites. And I am still looking for the right bulbs. But the bulbs I got now have the leaves standing strati up. 
I hope to get another fixture soon. This is expensive, but I am having fun with the t5s. 
You really cant tell that the t5 plants are a week behind the others.


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## falcon223 (Jan 29, 2012)

BlueB, I saw that same chart but they don't tell witch bulb is the bottom chart, or graph. To me the bottom graph looks promising.


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 29, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> BlueB, I saw that same chart but they don't tell witch bulb is the bottom chart, or graph. To me the bottom graph looks promising.


The bottom one is the Aqua Medic Plant Grow, I have 2 coming by fedex on Tues. Gotta watch when you're looking up their SPD's, those charts are correct but the charts _they _printed on _their own _packaging is dramatically incorrect. It shows all the peaks shifted about 50-60nm to the left, so the 660nm peak appears to be the very common 611nm peak, but when you line up the mercury spikes that are common to triphosphoric fluoros, the 554nm and 420nm spike are both shifted waaay off. I dunno why they havent corrected it, but you can find the correct spd's published online, but the graphs they print on their packaging are not correct.

<-- incorrect, you cannot find a bulb anywhere with a spike in the 490ish, or 350nm range? (350 would be a reptile bulb with warnings about UV exposure) This is the graph printed on their packaging.

 <-- correct, although unsure if this is the plant grow or possibly planta spd, I know when they re-did the planta into the plant grow they tweaked the red spectrum abit, but it's still supposed to provide the 650-660 range. 


Update on my bulb fiasco... So after my order with AS was cancelled, I ordered 4 Red Suns from HelloLights.com. Then waited for a week before calling them to ask where my tracking number was, which was when they said they were out of stock until??? So I changed that order from 4 red suns to 2 AquaMedic Plant Grows that I should be getting on Tuesday. I then ordered 4 Red Suns from ReefCorals.com... 5 minutes later (right after cancelling my red sun order with them) HelloLights calls me and says "oh we do have them in stock" then why the fuck was I waiting for a week for you to send them!??? So I say "Too late, I already ordered 4 from someone else when you told me you were out, Ive been waiting since early December to get these". Then 2 days later ReefCorals.com emails me and says "oh our dropshipper is out, no one carries these so you can wait or cancel" So I cancel with those idiots, then call HelloLights back to ask about the Red Suns that they supposedly did have in stock afterall... They're out... but are supposed to be getting a shipment in tomorrow, so I have 4 shipping out tomorrow. Damn, since Dec11 and I still dont have my replacement RedSuns from those first two that went out. Anyway, +4 Red Sun and +2 Plant grows this coming week, then some Rosettes are next in line. Im gonna have 2 RedSuns, 1 CoralWave and 1 ReefWave in each 4 bulb panel in the flowering box, until eventually swapping the reef wave for a rosette (or maybe a plant grow) Im gonna put the plant grows in the veg box first though.


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> BlueB, I saw that same chart but they don't tell witch bulb is the bottom chart, or graph. To me the bottom graph looks promising.


That bottom bulb is the aqua-medic Plant Grow bulb. I know it looks a little different than the one on their site. I think it is the previous version, the Planta bulb. Either that or it was just an old spectral analysis that was taken with the bulb a little bit closer to the optic fiber sensor on the spectrometer. Like I've said before, these graphs will shrink and grow as the light source gets closer and farther away from the optic sensor(the Y-axis on the graphs stands for intensity and as we already know, the further away a light source is the lower the intensity). I really think that it is for the old Planta bulb though.


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## poind3xter (Jan 29, 2012)

Picked up a few Flora Sun's from Petco. 46" only $15-something. I was pretty stoked lol.


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## BlueB (Jan 29, 2012)

oh shit, didn't notice the previous post. so yeah. 

hey the aqua-medic plant grow bulb rocks the shit, but it's pretty much identical to the cheaper flora suns. any reason not to get the flora sun bulb? can't wait till the ultra growth pepsi cola bulb comes out or whatever its gonna be called, should be a good one to mix with 50/50 actinic/ultra growth wave.

something tells me this would be the ultimate bulb mixture,

50%ULTRA GROWTH WAVE AND 50%CORAL WAVE

maybe 60/40 or 75/25?
not sure. I guess what I really don't understand is that if in fact this Ultra Growth wave is for plant growth, along with all the other plant growth types of bulbs, then why didn't they include the actinic wavelength in there if actinic works for plants? does actinic only work for cannabis? maybe they are all just guessing like we are.


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## PetFlora (Jan 30, 2012)

*BB *I had a lot of bleached leafs (all over the plants) under 2/8 Coral Waves. Not 100% sure I can blame the bleaching on too much CW though, so be careful, and keep us posted.


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## BlueB (Jan 30, 2012)

well on a positive note, when i took the red suns out of the fixture and put in the coral waves the twisted leaves straightened out. I have 4 coral waves and 4 flora suns in there now and all the leaves look good(last photo i posted). the red suns seemed to make the leaves twist and cause some irregularities. it sure is cool how the slightest change effects the plants within 24-48 hours and then you are able to change it back to normal. i think i'm done with the red suns. it kinda sucks cause i have 8 of them. maybe some other strain will like them. i'm going to wait on those new ultra growth wave bulbs to try any additional changes. i'm gonna do the 50/50 coral wave, ultra growth wave because that will hit all the key wavelengths and i would expect some phenomenal quality growth. the coral waves sure look purple next to the super actinic. must be that IR peak in them. bleaching huh? not sure what would cause that. how hot is your canopy?????? 

SIGGY CHANGE


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## Calrt (Jan 30, 2012)

BlueB said:


> What bulbs are you using for flower? Have you found any particular optimal bulb mixture?


Read my other posts, I have switched them a few times.


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## BlueB (Jan 30, 2012)

Calrt said:


> Read my other posts, I have switched them a few times.


Ok? Is this right? 3 Red Sun, 4 Flora Sun, 1 Actinic? How do you have them arranged in the fixture? I don't see a photo of your light configuration anywhere. Your plants are looking badass though, I would really like to use the red suns since they are soooo red, but it seems like they are causing some irregular growth, not sure.


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## overTHEman (Jan 30, 2012)

Pre-harvest teaser....











She's coming down on Tuesday, all T5ers are welcome to join!


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## Calrt (Jan 30, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Ok? Is this right? 3 Red Sun, 4 Flora Sun, 1 Actinic? How do you have them arranged in the fixture? I don't see a photo of your light configuration anywhere. Your plants are looking badass though, I would really like to use the red suns since they are soooo red, but it seems like they are causing some irregular growth, not sure.


Those were the bulbs for weeks 5 and 6, didn't have flora suns at all before that. Finished with 4 flora Suns, 2 Red Suns ans 2 Actinics. I have not seen any weird growth from the Red Runs, I have switched bulbs lots ways in the fixture, just try to spread the spectrums out.


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## Calrt (Jan 30, 2012)

Full View of the t5 setupOne of the larger colasHPS GrowOne of the larger onesDrying about 70% of the T5 harvest The HPS and the rest of the T5 should be cut down in the next couple days.


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## BlueB (Jan 30, 2012)

Calrt said:


> Those were the bulbs for weeks 5 and 6, didn't have flora suns at all before that. Finished with 4 flora Suns, 2 Red Suns ans 2 Actinics. I have not seen any weird growth from the Red Runs, I have switched bulbs lots ways in the fixture, just try to spread the spectrums out.


haha yeah, i wouldn't have been able to figure that out from your posts lol. so how do you have them arranged in the fixture? i switched mine out AGAIN today to try out something new, 2 flora sun, 2 red sun, 2 coral wave, 2 fiji purple. i really need a fixture with like 12 slots in it. i would really like to be using 4 of the flora sun since it has the 660nm that is supposed to be so important. i would REALLY like to know how important that 660 really is. i mean, hps doesn't have any 660 any they still grow fat ass buds. it makes me wonder if those red suns are as good if not better than the flora suns. hmmmm, hey undercurrent, do you have a photo of a finished bud from your grow??????


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## BlueB (Jan 30, 2012)

overTHEman said:


> Pre-harvest teaser....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What happened to all your fan leaves? They are all yellow and crazy looking. Did you have a bug problem or heat? Do you think you are lacking in the far red spectrum? What is your opinion on the 2 fiji, 1 red sun, 1 blue that you are using? Do you think the plants are needing any other wavelength? There is no 660 in your setup, but I'm questioning the importance after seeing your grow and how juicy your buds look. Still, do you have any idea why your fan leaves got the way they are?


----------



## falcon223 (Jan 30, 2012)

BlueB. Sorry dude, but when a plant matures, it fan leaves die off. 


OOHHH Waite you were just blowing smoke. I thought you where for real.?? 

Man I am so dum.


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## hyroot (Jan 30, 2012)

Does anyone here realize that the aquaflora peaks at 630 nm. it does have a little red at 650. not much more than the fiji. i like the colormax more. it has 60% red at 660nm and has red running from 610nm to 700nm and less green. it covers Chlorophyll A, B, C.... it has more energy in the red rather than the blue like the others.....

View attachment 2029001View attachment 2029002


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## BlueB (Jan 30, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> BlueB. Sorry dude, but when a plant matures, it fan leaves die off.
> 
> 
> OOHHH Waite you were just blowing smoke. I thought you where for real.??
> ...


lay off the ammonium choloride,......dude...... or at least get yourself checkededed out, at least quit smokin your fertilizer. No, but really, you're not seeing the same picture, I know what fan leaves do before harvest time, this seems a little excessive though like something happened during the grow. It was a question for Calrt, not you. LOL funny though


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## BlueB (Jan 30, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Does anyone here realize that the aquaflora peaks at 630 nm. it does have a little red at 650. not much more than the fiji. i like the colormax more. it has 60% red at 660nm and has red running from 610nm to 700nm and less green. it covers Chlorophyll A, B, C.... it has more energy in the red rather than the blue like the others.....
> 
> View attachment 2029000View attachment 2029001View attachment 2029002View attachment 2029003


the colormax is a good one. really makes me want to have a 12 bulb fixture.


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## hyroot (Jan 30, 2012)

BlueB said:


> lay off the ammonium choloride,......dude...... or at least get yourself checkededed out, at least quit smokin your fertilizer. No, but really, you're not seeing the same picture, I know what fan leaves do before harvest time, this seems a little excessive though like something happened during the grow. It was a question for Calrt, not you. LOL funny though




That looks like its being very under watered. Leaves curl upward and turn crispy and yellow very fast when they don't get enough water. Leaves do not fall off unless they are deficient. I'd say loosen up the top soil or till it. Then feed it more water. Pull off every single one of those leaves. They are diseased so and that's a waste of energy. Slows the growth of the rest of the plant

When I chop, every leaf is still green. I'm 100% oraganic and I flush for a week.


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## BlueB (Jan 30, 2012)

hyroot said:


> That looks like its being very under watered. Leaves curl upward and turn crispy and yellow very fast when they don't get enough water. Leaves do not fall off unless they are deficient. I'd say loosen up the top soil or till it. Then feed it more water. Pull off every single one of those leaves. They are diseased so and that's a waste of energy. Slows the growth of the rest of the plant
> 
> When I chop, every leaf is still green. I'm 100% oraganic and I flush for a week.


When I do hydro, every leaf is still green also. In fact, my hydro crops never even get one little yellow spot on any leaf the entire time. Even when I'm flushing, the fan leaves stay green. It's pretty crazy because I've always been under the impression that you actually want the leaves to turn yellow because then it means that there will be no chlorophyll or nutrients left behind in your smoke. The plant uses up those extra nutes I guess. When I do soil, then the fan leaves usually turn yellow and fall off eventually, But they never get as crazy looking as these fan leaves are in this photo with all the splotches and what not. If the smoke tastes great though, you must be doin somethin right. If it tastes harsh though, I would reassess the situation and keep on farmin that herb. I always get more flavor in soil. I was doing some searching and came across this guy that was doing some LED trials. He made some conclusive observations about orange, red, and far red wavelengths and blue. He found that the far red(645nm) does a better job than the cherry red(745nm). It's a little difficult to follow but he has loads of photos and I know how much everyone here likes photos. Here's the site, please explain if you think you understand what his conclusions are about blue vs. red and all that good stuff. 

http://www.ledgrow.eu/

Make sure you check out all of his setups and every other page.
This guy experimented with lighting for 5 years, he knows his shit to say the least!
He's pulling 100 grams off of only 60 watts of electricity! Unreal. He really seems to stress the importance of intensity vs. color stating that overall intensity is going to produce a bigger yield. Looks like he uses a 2:3 blue/red ratio for growing and a 1:6 for flowering, he only turns on IR wavelengths(745nm) after flower set and NOT right at the 12/12 flip. Going to put the Coral Waves away until the buds start developing and not before. Lot of people here are having pretty good results getting by with the red sun as the only red source. Thinking of going back to the red sun and doing something like 4 red sun, 4 blue plus, and the plant grow side lighting, UNTIL bud formation is nice and set and then switching back to the flora sun/coral wave/UVb mixture.


----------



## mudminer (Jan 31, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Here is what the same strain looks like under HPS as a reminder. Can't wait to see the color/quality/aroma/medicinal differences between the HPS and T5 in about 66 days or so.View attachment 2024373View attachment 2024394


Hi. Are both of these plants cloned from same momma or did you grow from seed?


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## falcon223 (Jan 31, 2012)

I think Calart, said he had some problems with ferts or some thing , early on? Yea im sobber now.


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## PetFlora (Jan 31, 2012)

poind3xter said:


> Picked up a few Flora Sun's from Petco. 46" only $15-something. I was pretty stoked lol.


Damn. I bought 1 from 2 separate Petcos- both were $21.99


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## PetFlora (Jan 31, 2012)

BlueB said:


> well on a positive note, when i took the red suns out of the fixture and put in the coral waves the twisted leaves straightened out. I have 4 coral waves and 4 flora suns in there now and all the leaves look good(last photo i posted). the red suns seemed to make the leaves twist and cause some irregularities. it sure is cool how the slightest change effects the plants within 24-48 hours and then you are able to change it back to normal. i think i'm done with the red suns. it kinda sucks cause i have 8 of them. maybe some other strain will like them. i'm going to wait on those new ultra growth wave bulbs to try any additional changes. i'm gonna do the 50/50 coral wave, ultra growth wave because that will hit all the key wavelengths and i would expect some phenomenal quality growth. the coral waves sure look purple next to the super actinic. must be that IR peak in them. bleaching huh? not sure what would cause that. how hot is your canopy??????
> 
> SIGGY CHANGE


Canopy was < 80*s. My guess is that one can have too much of one spectrum relative to the other spectrums. Maybe you had way too much 630 in there, and it was overshadowing the deep blues. Who knows? Just a thought. I'm going to stick the other CW back in but I only have position one available, so not sure it will be of much help/hindrance. It does seem to matter how the bulbs are arranged as well.


----------



## PetFlora (Jan 31, 2012)

BlueB said:


> haha yeah, i wouldn't have been able to figure that out from your posts lol. so how do you have them arranged in the fixture? i switched mine out AGAIN today to try out something new, 2 flora sun, 2 red sun, 2 coral wave, 2 fiji purple. i really need a fixture with like 12 slots in it. i would really like to be using 4 of the flora sun since it has the 660nm that is supposed to be so important. i would REALLY like to know how important that 660 really is. i mean, hps doesn't have any 660 any they still grow fat ass buds. it makes me wonder if those red suns are as good if not better than the flora suns. hmmmm, hey undercurrent, do you have a photo of a finished bud from your grow??????


I was running 2 Red Suns , but within 8 hours of adding one FS (no other changes prior), tons of new pistils and trics appeared.


----------



## PetFlora (Jan 31, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Does anyone here realize that the aquaflora peaks at 630 nm. it does have a little red at 650. not much more than the fiji. i like the colormax more. it has 60% red at 660nm and has red running from 610nm to 700nm and less green. it covers Chlorophyll A, B, C.... it has more energy in the red rather than the blue like the others.....
> 
> View attachment 2029000View attachment 2029001View attachment 2029002View attachment 2029003


? Looking at the Color Max graph, note the hash mark between 600 & 700, no useful 650+ on that graph


----------



## BlueB (Jan 31, 2012)

mudminer said:


> Hi. Are both of these plants cloned from same momma or did you grow from seed?


They are clones from the same plant



PetFlora said:


> Canopy was < 80*s. My guess is that one can have too much of one spectrum relative to the other spectrums. Maybe you had way too much 630 in there, and it was overshadowing the deep blues. Who knows? Just a thought. I'm going to stick the other CW back in but I only have position one available, so not sure it will be of much help/hindrance. It does seem to matter how the bulbs are arranged as well.


I'm thinking now that the fixture was closer to the canopy than it should have been because it was only 2" away and the red sun was the only light getting to some of the leaves, so I moved it up to 10" as recommended by hyroot. switching to red sun/blue 50/50 today.


----------



## BlueB (Jan 31, 2012)

I'm gonna try this for now at least until flower set, then I will put in the UVb and switch out a blue plus or actinic for a coral wave??????????????????
Sure would be nice to use the spectrometer again to check out this mixture,


----------



## mudminer (Jan 31, 2012)

Wow,what a great thread. Considering the vastness of it and that your all still on topic without repetition (at least in the last 20 pages or so) shows your dedication and that your constantly experimenting trying to improve your set-ups. Id like to lurk and learn for a while, maybe ask a ? or 2 from time to time. Peace & all the best in your endeavors.


----------



## Psytranceorgy (Jan 31, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I'm gonna try this for now at least until flower set, then I will put in the UVb and switch out a blue plus or actinic for a coral wave??????????????????
> Sure would be nice to use the spectrometer again to check out this mixture,
> View attachment 2030958View attachment 2030979


Looks good to me BlueB


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## PetFlora (Jan 31, 2012)

BlueB said:


> When I do hydro, every leaf is still green also. In fact, my hydro crops never even get one little yellow spot on any leaf the entire time. Even when I'm flushing, the fan leaves stay green. It's pretty crazy because I've always been under the impression that you actually want the leaves to turn yellow because then it means that there will be no chlorophyll or nutrients left behind in your smoke. The plant uses up those extra nutes I guess. When I do soil, then the fan leaves usually turn yellow and fall off eventually, But they never get as crazy looking as these fan leaves are in this photo with all the splotches and what not. If the smoke tastes great though, you must be doin somethin right. If it tastes harsh though, I would reassess the situation and keep on farmin that herb. I always get more flavor in soil. I was doing some searching and came across this guy that was doing some LED trials. He made some conclusive observations about orange, red, and far red wavelengths and blue. He found that the far red(645nm) does a better job than the cherry red(745nm). It's a little difficult to follow but he has loads of photos and I know how much everyone here likes photos. Here's the site, please explain if you think you understand what his conclusions are about blue vs. red and all that good stuff.
> 
> http://www.ledgrow.eu/
> 
> ...


First, let me say I am very positive about the near future of LEDs. This guy has closed the gap focusing on the real needs based on testing. I applaud him, and will consider one of his lights to replace my Sunshine Systems UFO 90, which works really well for vegging/cloning, although I now supplement with daylight cfls, as it is 90%+ red. My take on reading the link is, he is still experimenting with UVB no clear answer as yet.

2/1/12: Came across this on FarRed from his LED experiments Also R/B ratios: _The Farreds are now On for the last 1,5 hour of the day and stay On for 0,5 hour after the Blue and Red are switched Off. _12-8, Stretching!! Switched off the Farreds, I will not use them until the last 5 weeks of flowering. _Switched to flowering, 12 hours, also the Farreds are now On during the last 2 hours of the dayperiod and the first hour of the night period. The panels have stayed the same, 18 Reds and 12 Blues, the 8 Farreds are not in use until flowering comes. The Farreds run at a seperate timer; they switch On just 2 hours before the other Leds switch Off and the Farreds stay On for 2 hours after the others are switched off. Thus imitating the evening sunlight in the autumn. _ _Since growth almost stopped, I switched to 6 : 1 Red/Blue ratio for the last 7 weeks of flowering. The Blue's are now running at 25% current, about 180mA. the added Red's are at 75% current, ~520 mA. The other Red's are at the normal 700 mA._ _A new Set-up, for the vegging period I am using 9 Red led's and 6 Blue led's on each panel. So quite a strong amount of Blue, I hope to get less stretching this time. Both panels have a neutral White led to complete the spectrum and prevent delayed flowering. After 2-3 weeks of flowering, I will reduce the Blue's to just 25% and turn on 6 extra Red's. *January 26,* 2 days ago all plants have been transplanted to the 40*60 cm box, and I switched to flowering. They'll be finished by March 29. I also modified the panels so they give 100% extra Farred and the Farreds will be switched On in all fases._


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## BlueB (Jan 31, 2012)

I changed again. One last time 
3 Red Sun, 2 Fiji Purple, 3 Flora Sun.
The Fiji already has 420 and 470 plus the additional red that I want in the mixture. I will do a color analysis later today.


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## BlueB (Jan 31, 2012)

Here it is, my final flowering light fixture! I'm happy with this setup since there is more red than blue now and I'm gonna go with this mixture for sure so that you guys can see what it does. No more changes until I add the UVb(unless they start to look like shit). I'm also happy I was able to toss in another Flora Sun since it's the only bulb I have with the far red that plants like. Final configuration is 3 Red Sun, 2 Fiji Purple, 3 Flora Sun, and the 130w of plant grow side lighting. The side lighting has 50/50 blue 460nm, red 610nm. It looks purple.

Color analysis,

This is how the tops look under this light mixture,


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## Undercover Cop (Jan 31, 2012)

So I got my PlantGrows today, and of course one was broken. So until I get my replacement PlantGrow and new RedSuns, this will be my veg spectrum which will come into play in a few days. 
View attachment 2032019
(top down) ReefWave, Bloom, 10k, RedSun, PlantGrow, 10k, Bloom, ReefWave
View attachment 2032020


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## BlueB (Feb 1, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> So I got my PlantGrows today, and of course one was broken. So until I get my replacement PlantGrow and new RedSuns, this will be my veg spectrum which will come into play in a few days.
> (top down) ReefWave, Bloom, 10k, RedSun, PlantGrow, 10k, Bloom, ReefWave


Looks nice!
I hate to say it but.............after only 24 hours I am not liking how the plants look. I've put the 50/50 Flora/Plant grow back in to see if the leaves perk back up. I've taken a picture with the previous light mixture so that I can compare and present the differences so that yall can see that I'm not trippin here. I know that plants can adapt to new types of light so maybe it just would have taken some time and the plants would have adjusted, but the plants looked like shit after only 24 hours with the new light mixture. My plants seem to hate the Red Suns.
They absolutely love the 50/50 Flora/Ultra and the only difference between the Plant Grows that I have and the Ultra Suns is that these Plant Grows have a really nice blue range that they put out and also some 630 red as well.
Here is a photo of my fixture with the 50% Flora Sun and 50% Plant Grow(These are an off brand plant grow not the aqua-medic plant grow). Also the spectrum that the Plant Grow bulbs I have put out.











I will take a photo of the leaves tomorrow with the 50/50 Flora/Plant to give them time to respond to the light. I will post both photos to compare.


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## Calrt (Feb 1, 2012)

BlueB said:


> What happened to all your fan leaves? They are all yellow and crazy looking. Did you have a bug problem or heat? Do you think you are lacking in the far red spectrum? What is your opinion on the 2 fiji, 1 red sun, 1 blue that you are using? Do you think the plants are needing any other wavelength? There is no 660 in your setup, but I'm questioning the importance after seeing your grow and how juicy your buds look. Still, do you have any idea why your fan leaves got the way they are?


The curling leaves were from the heat of the light I believe. I had the 660 for the last 3 weeks.


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## Calrt (Feb 1, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Looks nice!
> I hate to say it but.............after only 24 hours I am not liking how the plants look. I've put the 50/50 Flora/Plant grow back in to see if the leaves perk back up. I've taken a picture with the previous light mixture so that I can compare and present the differences so that yall can see that I'm not trippin here. I know that plants can adapt to new types of light so maybe it just would have taken some time and the plants would have adjusted, but the plants looked like shit after only 24 hours with the new light mixture. My plants seem to hate the Red Suns.
> They absolutely love the 50/50 Flora/Ultra and the only difference between the Plant Grows that I have and the Ultra Suns is that these Plant Grows have a really nice blue range that they put out and also some 630 red as well.
> Here is a photo of my fixture with the 50% Flora Sun and 50% Plant Grow(These are an off brand plant grow not the aqua-medic plant grow). Also the spectrum that the Plant Grow bulbs I have put out.
> ...


You are going to stress your plants changing bulbs so often...you have me stressed just reading about it!


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## Calrt (Feb 1, 2012)

This is about 85% of my HPS harvestThis is about 70% of my T5 harvest

I would say the HPS is way more than double but I will have to wait for it to dry to know....the T5 batch it curing now, just over 1/2 gallon of volume fully trimmed. No weight yet. Smoked some last night and it was nice....


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## BlueB (Feb 1, 2012)

Calrt said:


> You are going to stress your plants changing bulbs so often...you have me stressed just reading about it!


Tell me about it! LOL At least I have back ups going in another area. I'm really close to my plants so I know what they like and don't like. I know for sure they aren't liking the Red Suns now. Seems really crazy though ya know? You would think red light, is red light. Maybe these are a mountain kush variety and they like blue light more?


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## BlueB (Feb 1, 2012)

Calrt said:


> This is about 85% of my HPS harvestView attachment 2033074This is about 70% of my T5 harvestView attachment 2033075
> 
> I would say the HPS is way more than double but I will have to wait for it to dry to know....the T5 batch it curing now, just over 1/2 gallon of volume fully trimmed. No weight yet. Smoked some last night and it was nice....


Whoa! Those T5 buds look A LOT NICER than the HPS ones. They look practically white! They look fatter. I hope I can nail this T5 flower light mixture thing as you obviously have! I nailed the T5 grow spectrum for sure, but as far as flower goes I'm still looking for a good mixture. I'm only 3 days into flower with the T5 so I'm not that worried about it. I'm not using the Red Suns anymore for sure(at least not for this particular variety). I will post the photos of the leaves and you will see how they have been reacting to the light. You will see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Calrt (Feb 1, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Whoa! Those T5 buds look A LOT NICER than the HPS ones. They look practically white! They look fatter. I hope I can nail this T5 flower light mixture thing as you obviously have! I nailed the T5 grow spectrum for sure, but as far as flower goes I'm still looking for a good mixture. I'm only 3 days into flower with the T5 so I'm not that worried about it. I'm not using the Red Suns anymore for sure(at least not for this particular variety). I will post the photos of the leaves and you will see how they have been reacting to the light. You will see!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


The HPS is fatter and lighter color. The T5 pic was taken after a day or so of hanging and up closer, maybe the flash whited them out a bit? I will get some up close pics of the finished product, I should call it red head because of how many red hairs!


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## BlueB (Feb 1, 2012)

This is probably way more blue than necessary, but it's an idea for a flower mixture. It's 50/50 flora/actinic. My plants actually responded pretty well to the 50/50 Flora/Coral Wave the other day. This is the same minus the IR. If they do well I might keep it this way and then switch the actinic out for the coral wave after flower set. Seems like way more blue than should be there, but hey, maybe it's true that some strains prefer more blue.


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## Calrt (Feb 1, 2012)

BlueB said:


> This is probably way more blue than necessary, but it's an idea for a flower mixture. It's 50/50 flora/actinic. My plants actually responded pretty well to the 50/50 Flora/Coral Wave the other day. This is the same minus the IR. If they do well I might keep it this way and then switch the actinic out for the coral wave after flower set. Seems like way more blue than should be there, but hey, maybe it's true that some strains prefer more blue.
> View attachment 2033189View attachment 2033190


I have read before that plants use the blue to locate themselves towards the light so they appear to like it more then they really do...mine always go to the blue...


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## BlueB (Feb 1, 2012)

Calrt said:


> I have read before that plants use the blue to locate themselves towards the light so they appear to like it more then they really do...mine always go to the blue...


Thats really interesting. Something to think about anyway. Does anyone have any idea where to buy the WavePoint Ultra Growth Wave bulbs yet? I heard that they are only available overseas. Any idea when these bulbs will be hitting the US market? I'm guessing they are going to be exactly like every other plant grow and flora sun bulb.


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## BlueB (Feb 1, 2012)

How about this bulb? Looks like a good amount of red. It's called Dennerle TROCAL T5 Color Plus





Here's another one, 
*Croci - PLANT POWER T5, 24w*


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## falcon223 (Feb 1, 2012)

BlueB that looks like a good light. I want 2 of those.

My plants under the t5, are reaching for the blue and Fiji pupil. And thy have a lot of bud sights. And some are a little frosty, at 2 and 1/2 weeks.


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## BlueB (Feb 1, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> BlueB that looks like a good light. I want 2 of those.
> My plants under the t5, are reaching for the blue and Fiji pupil. And thy have a lot of bud sights. And some are a little frosty, at 2 and 1/2 weeks.


Thats cool, can you take a photo? These bulbs are only available overseas as far as I can tell.


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## tehshyt (Feb 1, 2012)

BlueB said:


> How about this bulb? Looks like a good amount of red. It's called Dennerle TROCAL T5 Color Plus
> 
> Here's another one,
> *Croci - PLANT POWER T5, 24w*



those look like solid bulbs. I want some of those croci's


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## overTHEman (Feb 1, 2012)

Ms Headband came down last night and has been drying for ~24 hours. 

Thank you pr0fesseur and PAR T5ers, you have made this grow possible. 












Final thoughts will be posted after the buds have completed drying.

Happy Harvesting.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 1, 2012)

BlueB said:


> How about this bulb? Looks like a good amount of red. It's called Dennerle TROCAL T5 Color Plus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where get?


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## hyroot (Feb 1, 2012)

I'm Awesome


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## BlueB (Feb 2, 2012)

Some damn good info on plants and the wavelengths we have so many questions about,

http://cronodon.com/BioTech/Plants_FAQ.html

http://www.ehow.com/about_6744341_effect-infrared-light-plant-growth.html


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## falcon223 (Feb 2, 2012)

I will try to get a pic this weekend? I do have to work Saturday.


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## hyroot (Feb 2, 2012)

Found it. They arein italy though...

http://www.crocitrading.com/index.php?pp2=menu_cate&cate=43&mc=5&L=e&pp=show_prodotti&x=0&br=&kk=23&perpa=20&id_an=6725

So far the smallest plant so under t5 is dry. 28.9g. 7 more are hanging. Ooooh the quality is so much better.


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## BlueB (Feb 2, 2012)

I got some cuttings from a friend the other day. One that had Sour D in it's genes. They all rooted and I found thrips on the leaves so I sprayed them with the Go Gnats product. I fucking killed all the cuttings!!!!!! They all had just rooted yesterday. I'm so  Stupid fucking thrips!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

On the positive side, my flowering plant that is under the 50/50 Flora Sun, Actinic is doing very well. The plant likes this mixture for some reason so I'm going to leave it for awhile.


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## BlueB (Feb 2, 2012)

The Flora Sun is 100% identical to that Croci Power Plant bulb.Flora Sun,




Croci Power Plant,




The only difference is that they are measuring in 50's on the X-axis for the Flora Sun. These bulbs are the same.

Here is the Sylvania Gro-Lux,





Notice the resemblance? These bulbs are at least 99% the same. I'm willing to bet that the Wavepoint Ultra Growth is pretty much the same as well. Might as well stick with the Flora Suns, being only $10-$15. The Aqua-Medic Plant Grow is the same and better quality, hence the higher price.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 2, 2012)

Are any of you finding that your buds are coming out lighter and airier using T5's?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 2, 2012)

Where are you finding Flora Suns for $10?


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## falcon223 (Feb 2, 2012)

As long as I get frosty buds, I think I will be happy. It is to soon to tell if they are going to be fluffy. They like the t5 . I like the t5. 

More bud sites, and some frosty showing up allready.


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## falcon223 (Feb 2, 2012)

Oh yea I need a good place to buy flora suns? Any help would be appreciated.

I can not tell a lie, officer, I put that letter under that 1/2 tun of garbage.


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## hyroot (Feb 2, 2012)

I get dense almost rock hard and very frosty buds. Using the coral waves which put out quite a bit of infrared which greatly contributes to density.


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## BlueB (Feb 2, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Where are you finding Flora Suns for $10?


It was either petmountain, petco online, or dr foster and smith. One of those places had a clearance the other day. I can't remember


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## BlueB (Feb 2, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I get dense almost rock hard and very frosty buds. Using the coral waves which put out quite a bit of infrared which greatly contributes to density.


That's really cool, did you read that article I posted on IR? Flowering plants really do benefit from a balanced diet of IR, but it's important to not over do it. I'm running 6 Flora Suns and 2 Coral Wave for flower now and my plants are finally happy again, really happy. They are already flowering after only 7 days of 12/12, staying nice and compact, dark green and woody strong stems. Thanks for all the suggestions and feedback everyone.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 2, 2012)

ok so I need to stop buying bulbs, I didnt realize how cheap the flora suns are, so I ordered 4 FloraSun's and 2 AquaticLife Roseate's...


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## asdmo (Feb 3, 2012)

BlueB said:


> It was either petmountain, petco online, or dr foster and smith. One of those places had a clearance the other day. I can't remember


yo blue I checked those sites couldnt find any on sale. I found these but i think these are t8's?
http://www.entirelypets.com/zmflosunmax42.html


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## PetFlora (Feb 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Where are you finding Flora Suns for $10?


Yeah, I paid $22 each + tax


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## PetFlora (Feb 3, 2012)

OK, I put the second CW in this morning as the one plant I am babysitting has ~ 5-7 more days. Here are 3 shots. I got her *3 weeks ago* in mid-bud set, so while the buds are not 100% T5, still...


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## BlueB (Feb 3, 2012)

Oh, sorry I meant $8.49 per bulb.
http://www.aquariumguys.com/zoo-med-flora-sun-max-plant-growth-t5-ho-fluorescent-lamp-46in-54w.html


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 3, 2012)

Any of you using the Colormax bulbs?


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## BlueB (Feb 3, 2012)

I only use black and white bulbs.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 3, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Oh, sorry I meant $8.49 per bulb.
> http://www.aquariumguys.com/zoo-med-flora-sun-max-plant-growth-t5-ho-fluorescent-lamp-46in-54w.html


Yup, and Roseate's are like $13ea. there


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Any of you using the Colormax bulbs?


I have CoralLife colormax T8's for my houseplants... one Colormax and one Actinic... Ive definately noticed a good response  They're a pink bulb, a little more pink than the AquaMedic PlantGrow I just got.



sorry if I already posted these here


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## BlueB (Feb 3, 2012)

nice aloe vera, looks like they really like that light color. Are they under them 100% or do you put them in the sun once in awhile?

*Has anyone else seen those Current USA TrueLumen Freshwater Flora pink bulbs? I can't find a spectral analysis anywhere, but I bet they are similar to the other plant bulbs that we all love so much. They are very affordable! They have a 460nm and a few other bulbs that look nice. *


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 3, 2012)

BlueB said:


> nice aloe vera, looks like they really like that light color. Are they under them 100% or do you put them in the sun once in awhile?
> 
> *Has anyone else seen those Current USA TrueLumen Freshwater Flora pink bulbs? I can't find a spectral analysis anywhere, but I bet they are similar to the other plant bulbs that we all love so much. They are very affordable! They have a 460nm and a few other bulbs that look nice. *


Nope, inside all the time, 15hrs/day under those lights. I dug it up from outside where it had fallen over and was struggling, it had smooth spines with no spikeletts. Under the t8's its plumped up and developed the healthy spikes on the spines/branches, and is showing new growth also. I have mostly desert succulents, aloe vera and blue agave, but I have a juniper bonsai and some AZ cypress saplings also which are faring just as well. They all originally had their own 4x48" T5 panel w/ 6500k bulbs... they like the "weaker" PAR bulbs more tho and have really livened up  ... 'cept of course the bonsai, it doesnt do much of anything lol.

I think Petmountian has the Current tubes, but no SPD's. pretty cheap there also, under $10


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## Psytranceorgy (Feb 3, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> *Current/TureLumen Freshwater Flora:
> 
> Current USA - Support, Sep-13 11:25 (PDT):* Dear Mr.,
> We do not have a spectrum graph for this lamp, only the specific peaks in nm spectrums.
> ...


originally posted 9/16/11


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## BlueB (Feb 3, 2012)

THANK YOU for posting that again Psytrance.

As promised, here is a photo of the same plant top under the Red Sun mixture from a few days ago that the plants didn't like, compared to the Coral Wave/Fiji Purple/Flora Sun mixture that they are liking better. The leaves have perked up and the new growth is much more robust. Notice how flat the leaves look under the Red Sun/Flora Sun/Fiji Purple mixture and how perky they are under the Coral Wave/Fiji Purple/Flora Sun mixture. The flowers are setting already.

3 Red Sun, 3 Flora Sun, 2 Fiji Purple, (not happy) 





4 Flora Sun, 2 Coral Wave, 2 Fiji Purple, (HAPPY!) 





Here is a leaf grown under a 600w HPS on the left and a leaf grown under PUR T5 only on the right,


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## Myles117 (Feb 4, 2012)

undercover, would you mind snapping a pic of your bonsai? i love those


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## falcon223 (Feb 4, 2012)

So can someone clear this up for me. Are the coral waves good for flower? And how much UV do thy have.? I am going to order
two of the flora suns , I have 1 coral wave. Should I get another?


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## PetFlora (Feb 4, 2012)

*BlueB *I don't see any links to the pics

Do you think the combination of Red Lifes + FloroSuns is too much 600- 630?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 4, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> So can someone clear this up for me. Are the coral waves good for flower? And how much UV do thy have.? I am going to order
> two of the flora suns , I have 1 coral wave. Should I get another?




I consider the CWs a blue/actinic with an infrared bonus, I use them to supplement blues in flower and enjoy the IRs role in triggering the flowering response. They have very little UV (nothing below 400nm). I use them exclusively in flower, the IR would not be utilized in veg so I would use a pure blue tube in that stage (ReefWave or BlueWave). Google image search "wavepoint spectrum" or spd and you'll find their charts. The CW is a ReefWave w IR @740-760nm.


Myles I'll get a pic for ya when I get home, its in the middle in the pics of the houseplants , next to the clay pot, short little thing.


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *BlueB *I don't see any links to the pics
> 
> Do you think the combination of Red Lifes + FloroSuns is too much 600- 630?


Is anyone else not seeing the photos? I don't know if it's the wavelength or the fact that the Red Sun is a red only bulb. It's possible that my fixture is not far enough away for the red sun to blend? Either way, I'm not using the red sun anymore.!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!i!

Plants really prefer 650-690 part of the red spectrum. Orange not so much. I haven't finished any flowers under the T5's yet so everything I recommend for flower is just speculative.

I went and got a Sour D cutting again after messing the last one up. The only problem is, the Sour D cutting comes with a helping of thrips. I'm going to let it root first so I don't stress the cutting before it can get established and will keep it quarantined away from my other plants. Thrips suck, they are little bitches to get rid of. Does anyone have or know about any useful tools for zapping thrips back to where they belong? I use Go Gnats that has cedar oil, but the shit is quite powerful and damaging to the leaf. Pyrethrin doesn't really work for thrips, is there a safe, non-toxic preferable method for these microscopic maggot fuckers that anyone knows of?


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I consider the CWs a blue/actinic with an infrared bonus, I use them to supplement blues in flower and enjoy the IRs role in triggering the flowering response. They have very little UV (nothing below 400nm). I use them exclusively in flower, the IR would not be utilized in veg so I would use a pure blue tube in that stage (ReefWave or BlueWave). Google image search "wavepoint spectrum" or spd and you'll find their charts. The CW is a ReefWave w IR @740-760nm.
> 
> 
> Myles I'll get a pic for ya when I get home, its in the middle in the pics of the houseplants , next to the clay pot, short little thing.


I was checking out the Giesemann bulbs the other day. Another really good blue bulb is the Giesemann Actinic Plus. Check out the spectral analysis. The Midday ones look like a good bulb for the 470 wavelength. They have some yellow though. 

I'm not having much luck with the ATI Blue Plus. The Actinics seem to work better for me. I guess the strain I have prefers deeper blues and reds or something. Either way, it's all experimental so grab some bulbs and start cookin some phosphor.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 4, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I was checking out the Giesemann bulbs the other day. Another really good blue bulb is the Giesemann Actinic Plus. Check out the spectral analysis. The Midday ones look like a good bulb for the 470 wavelength. They have some yellow though.
> 
> I'm not having much luck with the ATI Blue Plus. The Actinics seem to work better for me. I guess the strain I have prefers deeper blues and reds or something. Either way, it's all experimental so grab some bulbs and start cookin some phosphor.


I consider blue a dime a dozen (its hard to find a bulb that doesn't have blue... red suns and???) so I go with the cheapest... Wavepoint bulbs at 10$ are close to as cheap as they come.

And I haven't seen any of the pics you've posted yet. Use the uploader to browse and select pics to insert (if you had been copy/pasting)


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 4, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Does anyone have or know about any useful tools for zapping thrips back to where they belong?


Azamax + neem oil, Applying once every 3 days for a week to the top and bottom sides of the leaf, than one more time in 7 days has worked for me.


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I consider blue a dime a dozen (its hard to find a bulb that doesn't have blue... red suns and???) so I go with the cheapest... Wavepoint bulbs at 10$ are close to as cheap as they come.And I haven't seen any of the pics you've posted yet. Use the uploader to browse and select pics to insert (if you had been copy/pasting)


Here are photos that I have posted recently. Isn't anyone seeing them? I don't understand why you guys can't see them, I see them just fine. Is anyone else having a problem viewing photos I've posted recently?I've been uploading and also using the Img with the [ around it to post without the link. Must not be working? Anyway IF you guys can see these photos. In the photo of the 2 leaves, the HPS leaf is on the left and PUR T5 on the right. Yayyyy! The 50/50 coral wave/flora sun is the photo of the fixture. The leaf tops that are under the Red Sun (do not look nice) and the leaf tops that are under the actinic/flora that do look nice(this is the photo that has more blue. The Fiji Purple analysis, and a light graph of what certain types of coral photosynthesize. Notice that the Fiji Purple emits light that coral respond well to. (These are photos I posted ahile ago. Not sure if you guys didn't get to see these.) Let me know if the photos didn't come through.


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## PetFlora (Feb 4, 2012)

I have been able to see all your pics prior to my comment. Those (post 2577) have no valid link .


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 4, 2012)

Got these this time, and the graphs previously, but not all of the pics before


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Azamax + neem oil, Applying once every 3 days for a week to the top and bottom sides of the leaf, than one more time in 7 days has worked for me.


Cool Thanks!



Undercover Cop said:


> Got these this time, and the graphs previously, but not all of the pics before


Awesome! I will post photos as attachments from now on, I don't know why the [[ Img code didn't work that time. Worked all the other times. Oh well,
thanks for letting me know anyway.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 4, 2012)

Here's what's happened in a week using the bulbs in my sig.

For scale the net pots are 6"


























And here's a pic being filtered and without, I feel the filtered pic shows the truer color of the bulbs.

Filtered





Actanic+, Redsun, 454, 75.25, fiji, actinc+, redsun, 454


Unfiltered






Actanic+, Redsun, 454, 75.25, fiji, actinc+, redsun, 454


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## Phaeton (Feb 4, 2012)

I mixed in the new arcadia 12% UVB T5's with the reds in my sidelights. The UVB measured triple the output at 8" over reptisun 10. 432 uw UVB versus 152 uw for the reptisun 10.


The single T5 arcadia in the four bulb fixture puts 275 uw into the canopy, on the buds.
The three reptisun 10 T8's in the six bulb fixture put 140 uw into the canopy. Less falloff due to multiple bulbs.
Not pictured are the naturesun, they put 24 uw into the canopy, 98% CRI. Light duty for clones/veg.

Into the canopy is 18 inches from the sidelights, roughly. I fit between the plants and the sidelights and walk the perimeter with the meter held in the first row of leaves.



The sidelights with both red sun and flora sun give a pretty continuous orange-red 600 though 660 nm, seems to negate some of the stretch caused by red/far red ratio's in the canopy.
The UV just tries to stunt everything it touches. The plants getting 275 uw will have less yield, but a stronger creep effect.


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC, could you please list your bulbs from left to right? I know they are in your signature, but I don't know which is which in your fixture and how many of each. I think bulb order is somewhat important and it obviously is working for you!!!! What is the minimum height you keep your bulbs away from your canopy? Thanks.

To All:
I'm going to do a seed order soon. Here is a list of seeds I want to order, but I would like to narrow it down to just a few. Has anyone tried any of these strains or would or would not recommend any?
1. California Orange
2. Space Queen
3. Space Bomb
4. SAGE n Sour
5. Ace of Spades
6. Fruity Juice (Sensi)
7. Lavender (Soma)

Any other recommendations to add to the list are welcome.


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## hyroot (Feb 4, 2012)

BlueB said:


> UnderCurrentDWC, could you please list your bulbs from left to right? I know they are in your signature, but I don't know which is which in your fixture and how many of each. I think bulb order is somewhat important and it obviously is working for you!!!! What is the minimum height you keep your bulbs away from your canopy? Thanks.
> 
> To All:
> I'm going to do a seed order soon. Here is a list of seeds I want to order, but I would like to narrow it down to just a few. Has anyone tried any of these strains or would or would not recommend any?
> ...


I did lavender a few years back. It was really good and a nice yielder. Tasted exactly like the description. Like hash from nepal. Check out somas rockbud. Im doing that now. So bommy. I want to try his citrilah and somango.


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

Phaeton said:


> I mixed in the new arcadia 12% UVB T5's with the reds in my sidelights. The UVB measured triple the output at 8" over reptisun 10. 432 uw UVB versus 152 uw for the reptisun 10.The single T5 arcadia in the four bulb fixture puts 275 uw into the canopy, on the buds.The three reptisun 10 T8's in the six bulb fixture put 140 uw into the canopy. Less falloff due to multiple bulbs.Not pictured are the naturesun, they put 24 uw into the canopy, 98% CRI. Light duty for clones/veg.Into the canopy is 18 inches from the sidelights, roughly. I fit between the plants and the sidelights and walk the perimeter with the meter held in the first row of leaves.View attachment 2038930The sidelights with both red sun and flora sun give a pretty continuous orange-red 600 though 660 nm, seems to negate some of the stretch caused by red/far red ratio's in the canopy.The UV just tries to stunt everything it touches. The plants getting 275 uw will have less yield, but a stronger creep effect.


What strain ya got there? Could you take a close up bud shot please?


Here it is, my FINAL LIGHT MIXTURE. For sure this time, I will not be changing it after much thought and experimentation, trial and error. I swear, I will be keeping this mixture. LOL
From left to right, Flora Sun, Coral Wave, Flora Sun, CA plant grow,Flora Sun, Coral Wave, Flora Sun, CA plant grow.


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## overTHEman (Feb 4, 2012)

Having reached the end of my first PAR T5 grow, I now have a review of the setup. Copied from my journal:

The use of PAR T5 lighting was a pleasing and effective method to maximize the return on investment in this small space. During the planning stages, the tent was intended to be a seedling/clone space; a 2 foot 4 bulb T5 fixture with 6,500k bulbs was purchased under this assumption. When the plan changed, a decision had to be made: get a small HPS, switch to CFLs, purchase 3,000k T5 bulbs, or a combination plan. Out of the actinic, I stumbled on the pr0fesseur&#8217;s thread. He offered a way to maximize ROI using the T5 fixture through the implementation of aquarium bulbs. A combination of 50/50 red/blue was recommended for a 4 bulb fixture. 2x Fiji Purple, 1x UVL Red Sun, 1x UVL 454 were purchased from ReefGeek and installed. This combination was very successful. It produced healthy, green growth with compact internodes while using only 96w of electricity with little extraneous heat. During flowering, the buds developed quickly and started packing on the trichs. At the time of purchase, the Fiji Purple was believed to be 50/50 red/blue; however, I believe that it is dominant in the blue spectrum and until this can be confirmed or denied from multiple sources, I believe that it should not be the &#8220;base&#8221; bulb. Please note that this bulb is unique in its output and similar results with different &#8220;purple&#8221; bulbs have yet to be shown. If a four bulb fixture is used, this could be better employed as a filler bulb in a red dominant combination: RedSun, Coral Wave, Fiji, RedSun; Fiji, RedSun, Fiji, RedSun; or RedSun, 454, Fiji, RedSun - for example. Given the space, heat, internodal length, and resin production: 5/5 rating (with room for improvement).

Thank you, pr0fesseur and PAR T5 community. I am grateful to be able to participate and I hope that my experience has contributed to this thread.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 4, 2012)

Looks good over. Seems pretty airy and light, was it? What's was your yield and how many plants?


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

nice lookin buds man! BTW, the Fiji Purple graph has already been released. You can find it one page back. The analysis was done on a $4000 spectrometer so I wouldn't question the accuracy! They guy who performed the analysis has a Phd in physics so I highly doubt we need anyone else to prove the graph right or wrong, but sorry if you haven't been informed already. LOL 

The spectral output of the Fiji Purple closely resembles the photosynthetic reaction requirements of some saltwater corals that aquarists use in their tanks. Thats why it is mostly 420-440 blue with only a touch of (6%) red at the 615nm wavelength. It is most definately not a good base bulb, but that doesn't mean for every strain. I was running 50% actinic and my plants sucked that light right up. I believe the Kush I have is from the Himalayan Mountains. Blue light is good for the plants, I really don't think that cannabis can get enough of the blue.

As far as red light goes, just buy some 660nm par38 led bulbs and hang them around your fixture. They last a long ass time and are relatively inexpensive and will complete the perfect growing spectrum. Let's face it, the only T5 bulbs that have the 660nm in them only consist of around 20% red and to be ideal for flowering it should be more like 77% red. On a positive note however, the grows that we have been doing with the PUR T5's are much, much nicer than using the 6500K GREEN bulbs that are supplied with most every fixture. Can't complain about that now can we? I know that people have been using the 630nm redsun bulbs with success, but it would be really nice for those who have been using them to try switching to a couple 660nm par38 to fill in the red requirement and compare their grows to see if it is any better. Aren't there some T5 types of LED strips that fit in our fixture?? I'm thinking of just building my own 660nm LED strips to stick in between my blue bulbs, to get that deeper red the plants really use.


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## overTHEman (Feb 4, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Looks good over. Seems pretty airy and light, was it? What's was your yield and how many plants?


Thank you LV, it smokes good too.


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## hyroot (Feb 4, 2012)

final rewards




left- hps...... right-T5....same strain......below





right before the chop chop


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## overTHEman (Feb 4, 2012)

Cheers, hyroot. Thank you for the comparison, any difference in smoke?


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## BlueB (Feb 4, 2012)

hyroot said:


> final rewards
> View attachment 2039631View attachment 2039632
> 
> 
> ...


YES!! 4 REAL
THOSE ARE THE BEST BUDS I'VE EVER SEEN UNDER FLORO'S!!! A++ JOB, 
Gotta ask, what is your final flower bulb mixture?


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## hyroot (Feb 4, 2012)

overTHEman said:


> Cheers, hyroot. Thank you for the comparison, any difference in smoke?


oh yeah.... the t5 is so much better tasting, smelling, and so much more frosty.... burns the same though..... Its such a world of difference from the hps quality


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## hyroot (Feb 4, 2012)

BlueB said:


> YES!! 4 REAL
> THOSE ARE THE BEST BUDS I'VE EVER SEEN UNDER FLORO'S!!! A++ JOB,
> Gotta ask, what is your final flower bulb mixture?




ive been using ..... fiji / red sun / coral wave / fiji / redsun / coral wave / redsun / fiji

I plan on swapping in some flora suns and maybe the ultra growths. but I haven't had much extra loot lately to experiment in flower.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> oh yeah.... the t5 is so much better tasting, smelling, and so much more frosty.... burns the same though..... Its such a world of difference from the hps quality


I would definitely agree with that statement.


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

iv grown under both and i dont notice even the slightest difference in taste smell or quality. i still prefer using t5s but dont think it changes those things at all

i think it may be a mental bias you are putting on it because you want the t5 bud to be better further justifying them as the better light


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> ive been using ..... fiji / red sun / coral wave / fiji / redsun / coral wave / redsun / fiji
> 
> I plan on swapping in some flora suns and maybe the ultra growths. but I haven't had much extra loot lately to experiment in flower.


WHY WOULD YOU? Your results prove that you have the perfect mixture of light! The only thing I would experiment with next if I were you would be to add some UVb light for 4 hours in the middle part of the light cycle and see if you get stickier smellier buds. 

I've been wanting to use my redsun bulbs, but whenever I put them in the plants seem to respond in a negative way. Maybe its strain, maybe the plants need to adapt to the red light, or maybe I need to move them up off the canopy for better light blending, maybe to 24"? After seeing your finished grow it makes me want to try using the red suns again. 

Your mixture really does seem perfect as far as blue to red ratio. Seeing your results proves to me that the red sun bulb emits red light that the plants use. Now, are you sure that you didn't have any HPS light leaking over to these? 
Have you tried the strains Querkle or Sour OG? They look really nice.


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> iv grown under both and i dont notice even the slightest difference in taste smell or quality. i still prefer using t5s but dont think it changes those things at all
> 
> i think it may be a mental bias you are putting on it because you want the t5 bud to be better further justifying them as the better light


You do realize that we are using special T5's that put out specific wavelengths of light right? These aren't your typical grow/bloom bulbs that emit mostly green/yellow light. The point we are making with these grows is that a person can grow better quality if not equal bud to that which is grown under HPS lights that put out a lot of the WRONG SPECTRUM. And save energy while we do it. Sure, plants will grow under intense yellow light, but do they prefer it? NO! SURE, I COULD KEEP LIVING BY EATING ONLY MASHED POTATOES AND WHITE RICE, but would I be happy? NO! Would I be healthy? NO! We are providing a gourmet meal of quality light for our gardens, and that's why they reward us with high quality, sweet tasting buds that surpass in many ways your typical yellow light type of grow.


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## PetFlora (Feb 5, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> iv grown under both and i dont notice even the slightest difference in taste smell or quality. i still prefer using t5s but dont think it changes those things at all
> 
> i think it may be a mental bias you are putting on it because you want the t5 bud to be better further justifying them as the better light


Well, for one thing, T5 bulbs, like the FloroSun, put out a solid amount of 660, which increases trich production. I added one a week ago, and another 5 days ago: since adding them, IMHO, the amount of hardy trics has increased > $45 expenditure. I also reinserted the second Coral Wave for some additional IR. 

According to the spectral graph recently posted on another thread, hps doesn't produce much of either (IR/UV), and although you can add supplemental lighting, it's so much easier to implement with T5s- _a simple twist of the wrist. 
_
*Hyroots* pics prove to me that adding them pays huge dividends, if not in quantity, certainly in quality. And so I now have 2 Coral Waves + 2 FlorSuns + 1 Red Sun + Special Blue Actinic. The plant that I was given to baby sit, at the time maybe 3 weeks in flower, has fattened up with calyxes, and triched up enough that I Am now a believer in T5s *ability to bud.*

Even if the results were/are a draw, what I especially love about *T5s* is: by experimenting with a wide variety of aquarium bulbs I have significantly increased my knowledge about lighting plants. One of my grow methods is HPA, and after several years learning working with it, I am excited to incorporate it (most efficient feeding system - used by NASA) + T5s using aquarium bulbs. Pretty exciting stuff for me.


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

so you can look at a beautifully healthy and lush plant under HPS and say its an unhappy plant? i understand the spectrum isnt perfect but im not ready to say that full spectrum makes the bud taste better. up for debate, sure. but not a sure thing.

mashed potatoes and rice are nutrient supplies for us.... light isnt nutrients for the plant. and if the nutrients found in those two foods were all we needed, there'd be nothing wrong with it at all. but is there proof that it changes the taste in the least bit other then you saying so? 

Sometimes things taste better when grown under less than ideal conditions for the plant IE flushing at the end of flowering. the plant would be happier with bountiful nutrients right up to chop but depriving the plant of them increases quality. 

I do not want to fight with you guys. like i say, i love t5s. sold my HPS for more t5s cpl years ago n never looked back. I was never anything but impressed with the high quality great tasting product HPS gave me. I just dont believe that my t5 buds taste any better because its a fuller spectrum. in my case, they werent any frostier either cuz i had UV bulbs in with the HPS. 

dont tar, feather n chase me oudda town please


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## PetFlora (Feb 5, 2012)

Not tryin to T & F you at all. That said, you neglected to mention in your original post that you were supplementing your hps with UV, that def narrows the comparative results.


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

fair enough.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 5, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> iv grown under both and i dont notice even the slightest difference in taste smell or quality. i still prefer using t5s but dont think it changes those things at all
> 
> i think it may be a mental bias you are putting on it because you want the t5 bud to be better further justifying them as the better light



Well I grew the same strain with the same nutes in different rooms one under HPS and the other under T5, 

My results when comparing the two where. The hps grew huge donky's that where very delicious. The T5 grew small nugs that where more fragrant, and where more densely packed with trichomes.

I'm not wishing one was better than the other. I'm just stating what my experience was.


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

with inferior light, why are the HPS buds so much larger? at least your best guess. i find that odd as you are giving them a much fuller spectrum of usable light with the t5s 

did you ever use UV bulbs with the HPS in the same room? made a world of difference in the trich coating for me and were just as frosted as any of my t5 grows.


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Exactly my point. HPS will grow really big buds, but that's all they are, lots and lots of plant cellulose. The comparison I was making with the potatoes and rice was metaphoric. What I meant was that HPS is like a simple carb, a starch, the way white rice is to us. The HPS will produce a lot of plant material, but because they do not have an ideal spectrum, the plants will not acheive their full medicinal potential. When I have grown under a ceramic metal halide I got an increase in flavor because of the added blue and UVb light. Only recently people have been beginning to understand why. The shorter wavelengths penetrate the trichome and cause a reaction on the disc cell that lets more terpenes into the sphere. This is why outdoor bud can look like shit and be all fluffy shwag looking and yet be 100 times tastier and better than grown under HPS. The secret is in the light my friend. The medicine is in the terpenes. The terpenes are released with the proper environmental conditions.


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Hey I can take steroids and appear larger and more muscular. I see what you are saying, but bigger buds do not make a difference. It's like the jumbo baseball bat sized carrots you can buy from food distributers. They hardly taste like a carrot. Now compare it to an organically grown carrot with no hormones, which is full of perfume like carrot essence, the way it was meant to be. Light isn't the same as a nutrient, no, but it plays a huge roll in how the plants metabolize nutrients and how they grow. Sure, an engine will run on straight hydrogen, but does it run well?


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> with inferior light, why are the HPS buds so much larger? at least your best guess. i find that odd as you are giving them a much fuller spectrum of usable light with the t5s
> 
> did you ever use UV bulbs with the HPS in the same room? made a world of difference in the trich coating for me and were just as frosted as any of my t5 grows.


Now try adding some 420nm, 440nm, and some 660nm wavelengths to your HPS and see what happens. The reason the HPS grows mammoth buds is because of their intensity in the yellow spectrum. It's close enough to the red spectrum that the plants still can use it, but it's less than ideal. As time goes on, I'm sure more people will begin to realize the medical importance of proper lighting balance.


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

lol if HPS light were a simple carb to the plant would not live nevermind thrive! 

the medicine is in the terpenes? what are you even talking about with that statement bro? 

why did i get exceptional smelling and tasting buds without the short wavelengthed light? i just dont buy it at all.


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Now try adding some 420nm, 440nm, and some 660nm wavelengths to your HPS and see what happens. The reason the HPS grows mammoth buds is because of their intensity in the yellow spectrum. It's close enough to the red spectrum that the plants still can use it, but it's less than ideal. As time goes on, I'm sure more people will begin to realize the medical importance of proper lighting balance.




then why are the t5 buds smaller lol this is where you lose me 100% in your arguement. trying to say HPS buds are bigger cuz they full of cellulose is just silly.

full spectrum should produce buds at least the same size but with better quality, no?


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> lol if HPS light were a simple carb to the plant would not live nevermind thrive!
> 
> the medicine is in the terpenes? what are you even talking about with that statement bro?
> 
> why did i get exceptional smelling and tasting buds without the short wavelengthed light? i just dont buy it at all.


I will try explaining one more time. Again, the carbohydrate statement was a metaphor. And the reason the HPS grows big buds is because they have a high intensity in the yellow spectrum which is close to the red spectrum. The red spectrum is responsible for leaf growth. But, that's what you are getting under a HPS light, a bunch of leaf growth full of THC containing trichomes and not much more(not as much proportionally to PUR grown buds). The medicinal properties of cannabis are found in the terpenes. This is what makes each strain of cannabis unique in its own way. The THC combines with these terpenes which give us the different flavor, i.e. lemon skunk, cali-orange, grape crush, romulan pine. etc. The reason the different strains can assist with different medical conditions is due to the terpenes (aroma). Have you ever heard of aroma therapy? THC isn't the sole ingredient that is responsible for the medicinal properties of cannabis. In fact, it really only contributes to the psychoactive properties. There is a plethora of information that has been posted within this thread, and many others that explain what I'm talking about. It's fairly new information, that's why you don't understand it yet. 

Getting back to the red light. You have to think of red light as the gasoline for plants. Red light is responsible for wide, giant leaves. The way I see it, the reason red light is there is to allow the plants to absorb more blue light. I like to think of blue light as the magical portion of the spectrum. Blue light is responsible for the reaction that takes place within the plant to produce the terpenes, or essence. This is where the real healing properties come in to play. If you want me to, I can find the articles that explain this better. I'm not the best when it comes to wording and explaining facts. Hopefully I haven't confused you any more.

The reason the T5 buds are smaller is because they don't have the GIANT SPIKE of yellow/red light that the HPS lights have. I'm willing to bet that if you were to take 1 gram of HPS grown bud and 1 gram of PUR T5 grown bud and then do a chemical analysis of THC, CBD, TERPENES, etc. that the PUR T5 would be way more concentrated with the important essential healing elements. Read these, they will help you understand the synergistic relationship between THC and Terpene.

berkeleypatientscare.com/2010/10/08/terpenes-terpenoids-and-cannabis/

http://www.neartic.com/Pain_Management/What_Are_Terpenes_in_Marijuana-id39003.html

http://biol1114.okstate.edu/study_guides/labs/lab7/lab7.htm

http://cronodon.com/BioTech/Plants_FAQ.html

http://www.ehow.com/about_6744341_effect-infrared-light-plant-growth.html

I didn't say HPS buds are "full of cellulose." Leaves ARE cellulose. The HPS will grow buds bigger because the bud structure is made up of plant cells, or cellulose, and red light will increase cell production, but will not increase resin/thc/terpene production on a proportional energy level. The red light makes plants more capable of absorbing all light. And to answer your question about the HPS/UVb experiment you did, of course it is going to work. Any additional light spectrum that you add to HPS is only going to make it that much better. UVb has been shown to increase resin production and is the ONLY wavelength that penetrates the capitate(sphere) on the trichome. Not sure if I worded that right. Scientists believe UVb light is responsible for letting the terpenes be released through the disc cell so that it can combine with THC more efficiently within the lower portion of the sphere. Does this help you at all? I think you need to grab some of these specific T5 bulbs and try it for yourself to fully understand. BTW which T5 bulbs are you using currently?


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

i am not able to grow at the moment due to my situation but i have sun reds, super actinics, 6500Ks, 10,000Ks, an 3000Ks in my stock. 

an i just dont see HPS grown buds as being any leafier or looser than the others. I get that a bud with more leaf tissue in it isnt gunna be the same as one that is tighter and more calyx packed. I just dont see the increased leaf size under HPS that you speak of. Just a longer stretch n thats obut it. 

if UVB is what makes the terpenes show, why not just use HPS with a couple low wattage UV bulbs added as I have in the past with awesome results? HPS increases plant cell count as you say, so add the UV and bam you got bigger buds with the terpene production without buying 4,5,6 dif types of bulbs!


thank you for taking the time to type up that post, I know you put effort into it and theres alotta good info in there  just debating to get to the bottom of it all


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> i am not able to grow at the moment due to my situation but i have sun reds, super actinics, 6500Ks, 10,000Ks, an 3000Ks in my stock.
> 
> an i just dont see HPS grown buds as being any leafier or looser than the others. I get that a bud with more leaf tissue in it isnt gunna be the same as one that is tighter and more calyx packed. I just dont see the increased leaf size under HPS that you speak of. Just a longer stretch n thats obut it.
> 
> ...


I agree about the HPS/UVb. HPS is just not a good stand alone light source. If there was a HPS bulb that emitted more of a reddish spectrum instead of the yellow I would be all over it. But we can only use what exists. I think that a HPS/MH blue/UVb in a 3:1:1/4 would be a good combo, but we are talkin A LOT OF HEAT, and a lot of $$ for electricity. A lot of folks here use the T5 mainly due to the heat issue. T5's are a really good BLUE light source. I suggested earlier to combine some 630-660nm RED LED with all these good T5 bulbs and utilize the best of both worlds. I think I might just do that, and design some sort of light that has both. Right now I am running a few different experiments to compare. I have both a 400w dual arc HPS/MH and a 400w CMH bulb over a few plants to see how it compares to my last 600w HPS grow. In another area I have the T5 and CFL side lighting experiment to compare. I am anxious to see the final outcome. I will be posting the results here. Here is a teaser shot of the 400w dual arc/CMH grow and a teaser shot of the T5 grow.

400w dual arc HPS/MH and 400w CMH,

T5/CFL grow,


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

cheers to the experimenting bro! Ill be watching on with jealousy.  kills me not growing but gotta think safety and freedom is more important than any amount of homegrown. Hopin to do a few outdoors this coming season

and correct me if I'm wrong but CMH's wont run correctly with digi ballasts will they? Thought I heard they need a magnetic ballast which is obv less efficient.


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> cheers to the experimenting bro! Ill be watching on with jealousy.  kills me not growing but gotta think safety and freedom is more important than any amount of homegrown. Hopin to do a few outdoors this coming season
> 
> and correct me if I'm wrong but CMH's wont run correctly with digi ballasts will they? Thought I heard they need a magnetic ballast which is obv less efficient.


CMH's use a magnetic HPS ballast only. Here is a shot of a leaf comparison I posted the other day. HPS grown leaf on the left, PUR T5 leaf on the right. What differences do you notice?


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

hahahaha oh sure, show a leaf from each that shockingly fall right into what you were sayin  An you promise this is a steady trend not just selective pinching for said pic?


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Lol, I posted this the other day. Go back a few pages, trust me. I have nothing to gain by proving a valid point. I am as intrigued by these experiments as everyone else. I have noticed a general trend from everyone and from the last 10 years that I've grown, that plants grown under HPS lights make for very yellow growth. I've always wondered why up until now. There is just not enough blue light emitted by HPS. My buds under HPS have always smelled/tasted the same whether it was a blueberry strain or sativa. I have only recently been getting better smelling/tasting buds from adding more blue light into my grows. Blue light as in UVb, 420nm 440nm 470nm etc. The good stuff. I'm by no means saying that I'm 100% correct. By all means prove me wrong, I welcome the insight and info!


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## Myles117 (Feb 5, 2012)

haha just giving you a hard time. I honestly never noticed larger paler leaves under HPS but maybe its cuz i never had them side by side to compare?


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## falcon223 (Feb 5, 2012)

I guess the next thing we will have to come up with is a T5 dominant strain. I am working on something similar and will post pics as soon as I see some improvement , with the stains I am trying. 
But cluster bomb looks promising. A short fat lady, I cant get it to stretch. And the buds are rock hard. Will know more with more time.


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Update to room #2, 400w HPS super hortilux, and a 400w MH super blue hortilux. I took out the CMH and the dual spectrum because I think these are higher quality bulbs,

This bud shot was NOT taken with a flash, this is how it actually looks under the 2 lights.
Since this covers more of a full spectrum and includes the blue spectrum, I think it will be more of a fair comparison to the T5's. I can't wait for the next batch. Temps are stable at 72 F with the addition of CO2 at 1300 PPM. yeah baby yeah
Should it be warmer since there is CO2 added in there? I'm not sure what the ideal temps should be.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 5, 2012)

400+400w= 800wHID vs 432w of T5?


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> 400+400w= 800wHID vs 432w of T5?


The T5 grow I'm doing has 130w of plant grow side lighting as well. So 562w of T5. Then when I add the UVb it will be an additional 108w which puts it at 670w. I think it's a fair comparison considering the T5's consist of a more "exact spectrum." Yes, very fair.  I can't wait!!!!!!!!!

oops, I gotta edit my signature


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## BlueB (Feb 5, 2012)

Has anyone tried the california orange strain? Is it decent?


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## PetFlora (Feb 6, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Well I grew the same strain with the same nutes in different rooms one under HPS and the other under T5,
> 
> My results when comparing the two where. The hps grew huge donky's that where very delicious. The T5 grew small nugs that where more fragrant, and where more densely packed with trichomes.
> 
> I'm not wishing one was better than the other. I'm just stating what my experience was.


Only because Myles had failed to mention that he was supplementing, was your hps bulb same wattage as the T5 fixture, AND, was it supplemented in any way? We need full bulb disclosure if we are to work this out. Looking at the bulb mix in your sig, you are very heavy in the blue range. i would think a couple FloroSuns and or Coral Waves would help for budding.


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## PetFlora (Feb 6, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> lol if HPS light were a simple carb to the plant would not live nevermind thrive!
> 
> the medicine is in the terpenes? what are you even talking about with that statement bro?
> 
> why did i get exceptional smelling and tasting buds without the short wavelengthed light? i just dont buy it at all.


Then why did you supplement it?


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## Myles117 (Feb 6, 2012)

for increased trich production, nothing else. HPS has low UV but better spetrum for flowering.


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## PetFlora (Feb 6, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> i am not able to grow at the moment due to my situation but i have sun reds, super actinics, 6500Ks, 10,000Ks, an 3000Ks in my stock.
> 
> an i just dont see HPS grown buds as being any leafier or looser than the others. I get that a bud with more leaf tissue in it isnt gunna be the same as one that is tighter and more calyx packed. I just dont see the increased leaf size under HPS that you speak of. Just a longer stretch n thats obut it.
> 
> ...


OK, but you ARE adding IR bulbs + a fixture/outlet. If you also added UVb, you would need another fixture and another outlet to simulate what we can do with ONE T5 fixture. Next you would need to balance the IR/UV bulbs to match the intensity of the hps wattage to achieve max benefit. Let's use 250 hps as an example v 400 w hps: you would need ~ twice as much IR/UV to balance the 400, meaning even more (or bigger) supplemental fixtures/bulbs. 

If 'we' are using an 8 bulb HO fixture (@ 54w/bulb) then 5 bulbs is ~ 250w to simulate hps spectrum. That leaves 3 slots for IR/UV bulbs + , so you could start there to run some AB tests. hth


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## Myles117 (Feb 6, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> OK, but you ARE adding IR bulbs + a fixture/outlet. If you also added UVb, you would need another fixture and another outlet to simulate what we can do with ONE T5 fixture. Next you would need to balance the IR/UV bulbs to match the intensity of the hps wattage to achieve max benefit. Let's use 250 hps as an example v 400 w hps: you would need ~ twice as much IR/UV to balance the 400, meaning even more (or bigger) supplemental fixtures/bulbs.
> 
> If 'we' are using an 8 bulb HO fixture (@ 54w/bulb) then 5 bulbs is ~ 250w to simulate hps spectrum. That leaves 3 slots for IR/UV bulbs + , so you could start there to run some AB tests. hth



you are a bit confused, I never added IR bulbs in with the HPS.... i added reptisun 10.0 26 watt compact flouros in with the HPS purely to increase UV. I wasnt worried bout increased terpenes, just increased THC


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 6, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> ...HPS has low UV but better spetrum for flowering.


It has very poor spectrum for flowering, but has such an intense output that the plants can scavenge enough usable light to thrive, but its less than ideal. Body builders are big and appear to be very healthy, but are known for having chronic health issues and suffering later in life from from a lifetime of abuse. Sure HPS will work, and work well, but a proper T5PAR spectrum will more closely produce the optimal blend of light for photosynthesis. And if you work to keep your tops as close as possible to the tubes, using the inverse square law, you can actually get MORE intense light than HID when you consider the distances needed to prevent heat stress under HIDs. I hear lots of people keeping them 12-18+" from the tops to blend the spectrum... Blend the tube assortment and get em down low. People complain about stretch when starting flower, its because the plants are searching for the light they really want when theyre switched to HPS like most people do, not finding it and stretching. No stretch under PAR T5


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## PetFlora (Feb 6, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> you are a bit confused, I never added IR bulbs in with the HPS.... i added reptisun 10.0 26 watt compact flouros in with the HPS purely to increase UV. I wasnt worried bout increased terpenes, just increased THC


Nope, not confused at all. I was simply saying in order to simulate what T5s are capable of spectrum wise, you would need that too.


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## Myles117 (Feb 6, 2012)

yes but i got results every bit as good as any t5 grow iv done. so i wouldnt have any urge to add IRs to it.


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## PetFlora (Feb 6, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> yes but i got results every bit as good as any t5 grow iv done. so i wouldnt have any urge to add IRs to it.


Wait. So you are saying you added IR to your T5 grow and still preferred your hps + ir bud?


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## PetFlora (Feb 6, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> It has very poor spectrum for flowering, but has such an intense output that the plants can scavenge enough usable light to thrive, but its less than ideal. Body builders are big and appear to be very healthy, but are known for having chronic health issues and suffering later in life from from a lifetime of abuse. Sure HPS will work, and work well, but a proper T5PAR spectrum will more closely produce the optimal blend of light for photosynthesis. And if you work to keep your tops as close as possible to the tubes, using the inverse square law, you can actually get MORE intense light than HID when you consider the distances needed to prevent heat stress under HIDs. I hear lots of people keeping them 12-18+" from the tops to blend the spectrum... Blend the tube assortment and get em down low. People complain about stretch when starting flower, its because the plants are searching for the light they really want when theyre switched to HPS like most people do, not finding it and stretching. No stretch under PAR T5


Also when Myles says he finds the quality the same (since it is clear he is not comparing apples to apples) my guess is he is smoking a lot more bud to achieve the same high- if that is even possible.


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## PetFlora (Feb 6, 2012)

Myles check this out: side by side whole plants https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/508854-4-kessil-h350-600w-hid.html


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## BlueB (Feb 6, 2012)

I've been thinking. When you look at the photosynthesis spectral absorption graph, plants utilize the far red much more than the near. Such as, they use 660nm much more than the 630nm. This being said, if you only had one red wavelength to choose from could you get away with less 660nm than 630nm and still get the same results? If so, it might make sense why I have been having better results with the floras over the reds. I've also been pondering getting one of those Kessil Far Red lamps to add to my T5 grow next time. Sure would be an interesting addition to the mix.


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## Myles117 (Feb 6, 2012)

dunno why but link isnt working?


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## Myles117 (Feb 6, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Also when Myles says he finds the quality the same (since it is clear he is not comparing apples to apples) my guess is he is smoking a lot more bud to achieve the same high- if that is even possible.


hhahahah i smoke maybe 1/4 of a gram if that to get as high as I've ever been. If it can be stronger, it sure as hell don't need to be. 


I aint a cancer patient goin thru chemo either, I smoke recreationally.


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## Myles117 (Feb 6, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Wait. So you are saying you added IR to your T5 grow and still preferred your hps + ir bud?



nope, this whole convo started with me saying I dont believe the IRs produce bud that is in any way shape or form better than HPS with a few lil UV bulbs in with it. Never said I preferred one or the other but since I did mention me sellin my HPS for t5s, I'd say the preference is the other way due mainly to less heat and more even light distribution with flouro tubes. i was growing in a third floor attic space that had temp issues with HPS running even when aircooled. T5s still put out some moderate heat but it was more manageable


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## BlueB (Feb 6, 2012)

I purchased some Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 HO to try out from overseas. I have to say they put out a real nice color. Probably a good veg bulb. Here is a photo of the Sylvania Gro-Lux sitting next to a Flora Sun and a Coral Wave.

Photo is as follows from left to right,

Coral Wave, Flora Sun, Sylvania Gro-Lux,


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

Hey guys... I picked up a couple Flora Suns and an add-on fixture to add two bulbs to my setup as well. And since I haven't set up for the new batch yet, I figured I would take a "Bulb-Stock" and see what I had... so I pulled everything, wiped down all the bulbs, and am plotting my next arrangement for flowering under T5's.

Here's my current proposed line-up for flowering:

2x Zoo Med Flora Suns
2x Wavepoint Coral Waves
2x UVL Red Life/Sun
2x Fiji Purp
1x UVL Super Actinic
1x UVL 75.25

In the two last slots, I'm torn between which blues to supplement with... I could use the ones mentioned or I have a pair of 454's... or a combination thereof...

I've been comparing the charts for the 454, 75/25, and Super Actinic, but am finding it hard to say which would be more ideal than the other, given the other bulbs already included. It seems like sticking with what I had is ideal, but I have a hard time keeping track of all this. Anybody got thoughts, feel free to chime in. This stuff makes my head hurt.

Also wondering if the fiji purps are worthwhile or if I'd be better off with the 454's in there... did we ever get a real chart made for the fiji purps? I know someone was doing some testing.


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## Myles117 (Feb 6, 2012)

a rainbow of the purple variety


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hey guys... I picked up a couple Flora Suns and an add-on fixture to add two bulbs to my setup as well. And since I haven't set up for the new batch yet, I figured I would take a "Bulb-Stock" and see what I had... so I pulled everything, wiped down all the bulbs, and am plotting my next arrangement for flowering under T5's.
> 
> Here's my current proposed line-up for flowering:
> 
> ...


Imho, I have no desires for the Fijis anymore, BlueB got the SPD made... big spike at 610nm and not much more, garbage tri-band bulb, I would go with a pure 420-460 and use other bulbs with proven SPDs to fill in the reds.


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Imho, I have no desires for the Fijis anymore, BlueB got the SPD made... big spike at 610nm and not much more, garbage tri-band bulb, I would go with a pure 420-460 and use other bulbs with proven SPDs to fill in the reds.


Thanks for your reply UC...

Okay, so then you'd say go with the two 454's in place of the fijis? Or would I be better off dropping 6400k blooms in there instead? Just trying to work with what I've got on hand...  I'm a little worried that if I put the two 454's in I'm going to be too blue-heavy and not have enough red in my mix...?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 6, 2012)

Oh btw, these lights would qualify as a pet product right? For use w fish/reptiles etc. In the US there are no "truth in advertising" laws like for pet or garden products. As far as ingredients in your nutes, and light from your bulbs (ie SPDs) mfgs can say anything they want, can legally lie through their teeth with no requirements to prove their claims ("organic" "660nm" etc) buyer beware, theres no FDA to regulate if its not for human consumption.


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## BlueB (Feb 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hey guys... I picked up a couple Flora Suns and an add-on fixture to add two bulbs to my setup as well. And since I haven't set up for the new batch yet, I figured I would take a "Bulb-Stock" and see what I had... so I pulled everything, wiped down all the bulbs, and am plotting my next arrangement for flowering under T5's.
> 
> Here's my current proposed line-up for flowering:
> 
> ...


You got way more blue than red in your mix. I'm not saying it wouldn't work because it might. I would do at least 4 Floras. The Fiji graph has been done. Flip back a few pages . It covers the entire blue spectrum and has a 6% red 610nm spike. So very little red, but it is something. 6 Flora Sun and 2 Giesemann Actinic Plus would probably work. I haven't been having good results with the Red Suns for some reason unknown, but they are working for most people.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Okay, so then you'd say go with the two 454's in place of the fijis? Or would I be better off dropping 6400k blooms in there instead? Just trying to work with what I've got on hand...


Prob 2 454s and watch the results, as long as you have enough PAR red in there otherwise. I think the fijis are like a 6500k that is heavy in the 610, they may be better than a generic grow bulb but not by much. The 454s won't be wasting energy on the 554 and 610 spikes


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

BlueB said:


> You got way more blue than red in your mix. I'm not saying it wouldn't work because it might. I would do at least 4 Floras. The Fiji graph has been done. Flip back a few pages . The Fiji is a good bulb. It covers the entire blue spectrum and has a 6% red 630nm spike. So very little red, but it is something. 6 Flora Sun and 2 Fiji Purple would probably work. I haven't been having good results with the Red Suns for some reason unknown, but they are working for most people.


Hm... Well, my last mix was basically the same thing minus the two flora suns and I got decent results out of it... not as much bud growth as I'd hoped though, that's why I bought the flora suns to mess with the mix more.

I am definitely worried about being too far into the blue end of things and not enough red.

I opted to order two more Flora Suns... I'll put the 454's in for now and then switch to the flora suns when they come I guess... so my final line up would be:

4x Flora Sun
2x Coral Wave
2x Red Sun
1x 75.25
1x Super Actinic.

I hope that's enough red.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 6, 2012)

Red suns, then the assortment of grow bulbs (aqua medic plant grow, giessemann aqua flora, flora sun, aquatic life roseate, freshwater pink etc) which are all triband bulbs and emit blue/green also. without redsuns, it will be almost impossible NOT to be blue heavy.


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

mmm. Makes sense. I am weary to order more Red Suns after losing two of them... but maybe I should find some more...


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> mmm. Makes sense. I am weary to order more Red Suns after losing two of them... but maybe I should find some more...


Me too man, still waiting for my replacements...since Dec12!!!! Back ordered everywhere! Theyre so unique tho.

I like the line up you posted, i'd replace the 75.25 with the 454 tho (75.25s have lots of green that is already covered in the flora suns) otherwise it sounds pretty good


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Me too man, still waiting for my replacements...since Dec12!!!! Back ordered everywhere! Theyre so unique tho


Haha, at least I am not alone on that one.

The flora suns are soooo cheap... i'll probably stick with what I got for now, plus the two new flora suns, and hope for the best.

I might buy a couple more red suns later but it will kind of complicate things... I just added two new tube slots with retrofitted sockets to the middle of my T5 unit where the ballast box is... but they have no reflectors, so I've got two internal-reflector bulbs in those slots now. (the 75.25 and the Super Actinic) so I guess if I brought more Red Suns into the picture I'd either have to take some of the Flora Suns back out or a coral wave... so I'll probably hold off for now and see how this goes for this run, with the 4x flora suns...


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

just got my flora suns in, surprised to see they look almost white compared to the rest of these bulbs...


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## BlueB (Feb 6, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Red suns, then the assortment of grow bulbs (aqua medic plant grow, giessemann aqua flora, flora sun, aquatic life roseate, freshwater pink etc) which are all triband bulbs and emit blue/green also. without redsuns, it will be almost impossible NOT to be blue heavy.


That is right. Since all of these bulbs are meant to be used over water they are all at the most 50/50 red/blue. Adding the Red Sun is the only way to bring the ratio up to a 70/30 unless you add some LED to the mix.


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

BlueB said:


> That is right. Since all of these bulbs are meant to be used over water they are all at the most 50/50 red/blue. Adding the Red Sun is the only way to bring the ratio up to a 70/30 unless you add some LED to the mix.


I thought about adding some LED to the mix but would have to back the fixture off so far it would be difficult to set up without hanging my T5's vertically or somethin'...

Considering splurging and buying a couple more red suns too...

4 Flora Suns, 4 Red Suns, 2 Coral Waves... that sounds pretty good...


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## AltarNation (Feb 6, 2012)

Hah... couldn't help myself... found a couple red suns and went for it... going to do the 4/4/2 setup above... now I just need to find some cheap reflectors or rig somethin' up for those two center bulbs I added, since none of these bulbs will have the internal reflectors.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 6, 2012)

The biggest issue I'm having with T5 growing is the fact I can only really flower 2 good sized plants under 1 8 bulb Badboy. 

Makes it really tough when you are trying to flower 24 plants for patients!

Any tips or advice would be appreciated. 

Currently supercropping and or LST'ng all my plants for a full 5 weeks before flipping to flower.


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## BlueB (Feb 6, 2012)

Tropic Lighting has single bulb Sun Blazes with reflector for a reasonable price.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hah... couldn't help myself... found a couple red suns and went for it... going to do the 4/4/2 setup above... now I just need to find some cheap reflectors or rig somethin' up for those two center bulbs I added, since none of these bulbs will have the internal reflectors.


I think I remember seeing 2x48 hydrofarm fixtures for ?$60$?

Search t5 parts,

I'm on my phone now so my computing power is limited, but check profs journals... T5 diy replacement parts... Stand alone reflector inserts!


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## falcon223 (Feb 6, 2012)

I have to say the red suns don't work for me. Ovcorse they all died in a day or two. So I don't count. 

And not to sure about the Fiji yet.


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## C.Indica (Feb 7, 2012)

Very important question,
to the OP please, or those with fully outfitted 8bulb+ T5 fixtures.

Can we get some official wavelength tests on these PAR specific setups?
With the full mix of Reds, Purples, Blues, Corals, or whatever makes up your favorite bloom combination?

It would be incredible, not to mention very educational to be able to compare these
PAR specific tests with other wavelength charts such as Metal Halide or LED.

So come on, the ultimate demonstration or what?


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## anonymuss (Feb 7, 2012)

RobertInAz said:


> You know, I just smoked a little bowl and i was thinking about this and I had one of those thoughts that you sometimes get when you're stoned and you figure that later you'll see -- in the clear logic of the unstoned state -- that the thought you had was retarded. But I'm going to put it out here anyway, and hopefully we're all about equally stoned and it won't sound stupid. At any rate, somewhere here in the Forum one of the experts was saying that plants use light spectra in the blue and red zones, and the spectrum that they don't use is the green, hence their green color. They absorb everything except the green, which they reflect, which is why we can see it. (My girlfriend just walked by with no cloths on. She says I shouldn't get stoned today since we have things to do, but I figure that I can do both. She also says I shouldn't get stoned since it makes me forgetful and I lose my focus and train of thought, but that's ridiculous.)
> Now, what was I talking about? Oh, yeah,... I was thinking about this: if plants only reflect green, what would happen if you had one of the Professeur's pure blue bulbs, turned all other lights out, and then turned the blue one on. Would you be able to see the plants?
> Anyway, with a naked girl in the room I just decided that this idea no longer has any interest for me, but I've pretty much typed the whole thing so I might as well post it.
> All the best, Bob


ur gf sounds like a reeeeeal bitch... x D


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## C.Indica (Feb 7, 2012)

And on another unrelated note;
I'm looking at a 24" 8 tube Flower Specific Setup..
I don't know what I'm doing, so I'd love imput.

I've been thinking..
2x Fiji Purple
3x RedSun
2x CoralWave
1x SuperActinic

Any complaints/issues with this setup? Literally just for flower.


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## PetFlora (Feb 7, 2012)

*CIndica *I would replace 1-2 of the Red Lifes with FloroSuns and maybe one of the Fijis
Getting an education on an LED thread. Lots of mfgs are cheaping out in different ways that ultimately screw the purchaser. IE: colored lens covers being called Far Red, R & B leds on same electrical traces... 

Here's a tip that confirms why to add CW to FloroSun:_ From everything else I've been reading.. 660nm needs 735nm "together" to change Pr to Pfr.. don't know what or why.. I just know it's needed_.*




*


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## PetFlora (Feb 7, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I purchased some Sylvania Gro-Lux T5 HO to try out from overseas. I have to say they put out a real nice color. Probably a good veg bulb. Here is a photo of the Sylvania Gro-Lux sitting next to a Flora Sun and a Coral Wave.
> 
> Photo is as follows from left to right,
> 
> ...



Neither of my FloraSuns look pink. Think I'll contact ZooMed


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## C.Indica (Feb 7, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *CIndica *I would replace 1-2 of the Red Lifes with FloroSuns and maybe one of the Fijis
> Getting an education on an LED thread. Lots of mfgs are cheaping out in different ways that ultimately screw the purchaser. IE: colored lens covers being called Far Red, R & B leds on same electrical traces...
> 
> Here's a tip that confirms why to add CW to FloroSun:_ From everything else I've been reading.. 660nm needs 735nm "together" to change Pr to Pfr.. don't know what or why.. I just know it's needed_.*
> ...


s

I didn't mention any "Red Life" anything,
I said RedSun's.

I'm hesitant on those FloroSun's, as they simply look like 5000k bulbs..
If anything maybe a 6400k tube, or a supplementary 40w 5000k bulb on the side,
I'm just not convinced on those FloroSun's..


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## AltarNation (Feb 7, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> s
> 
> I didn't mention any "Red Life" anything,
> I said RedSun's.
> ...


Sup...

Red Life is the newer name for the Red Sun bulb from UVL. They changed the name and are now manufacturing it under the Red Life name.

I wouldn't bother with Fiji Purps... they are overpriced if nothing else... I can't find the damn graph now... does anyone know what page of this thread has the new results for the Fiji?

I am switching to a Zoo Med Flora Sun dominant setup, actually... I can't recommend them for sure yet, but the price difference is huge...


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## xeningti (Feb 7, 2012)

your plants look like they having a party under those lights! amazing!


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## BlueB (Feb 7, 2012)

Flora Suns are considered a 5500k bulb. A 50/50 Flora/Bloom3000k would be a good setup although high in yellow.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 7, 2012)

AltarNation, I have blue b's fiji graph at home, I'll post when I get off work.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 7, 2012)

Here it is.


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## BlueB (Feb 7, 2012)

My fixture is way blue heavy, I have to add these Red Suns back in or get some Kessil 150. I'm not going to worry about what the leaves do anymore. 3 Flora Sun, 3 Red Sun, 2 Coral Wave


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 7, 2012)

Pics boys, post pics!


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## AltarNation (Feb 7, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Here it is.
> 
> View attachment 2044734


I can't see the numbers... where does that last big spike fall?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 7, 2012)

View attachment 2045252
its a big fat 611nm spike typicial of most commerical (cheap) tri-band phosphors. From the SPD alone it looks like the average 6500k with a little less green than average which would lend the pink/purplish hue rather than the more properly blended white output from a bulb with equal spikes in RGB. I kinda think it was a message when the two Fiji Purps I ordered both arrived broken in two... I think someone was telling me not to waste the slots in my fixture on em, I kinda got soured by KZ's shadiness in refusing to release their data, I think we know why! Thomaz Pohl of KZ, sir you can cram your $30 bulbs up your cram hole!

Thanks again to Blueb for getting this chart done

My florasuns and roseates are finally on the way  
Im still getting dicked with by hellolights about my redsuns, every time I call em they say that they've tracked their shipment from UVL and their pallet is arriving the next day so it should ship to me the day after... for almost two weeks now :-/


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## BlueB (Feb 7, 2012)

Right, he didn't want everyone to know that he is selling a p.o.s. bulb for premium prices! That's the little secret! some people


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## falcon223 (Feb 8, 2012)

I thought the flora sun was are replacement for the red sun. So if not then we have to keep buying red suns untill we get some that stay alive. I realy need some red in my light.
Is this the only way to get the t5 in red??


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## PetFlora (Feb 8, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> s
> 
> I didn't mention any "Red Life" anything,
> I said RedSun's.
> ...


Red Sun and Red Life are the same. Very confusing


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## PetFlora (Feb 8, 2012)

*BlueB *Can you post or PM a pic of your FloraSuns? ZooMed asked for one. I sent mine, clearly showing they look mostly white, def no pink hue. If you could take a photo of them in pink, it might help. So far they ain't buying it. 

''Here's the photo I sent them. The label is clearly visible on the FloraSuns. First bulb at top is FS then Red Life then CW then FS


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## AltarNation (Feb 8, 2012)

I found some red suns on ebay and bought 2 more... not really happy with them myself, as they tend to die, but what ever... it's all we have for nearer red tones right now.

I know the larger LED units advise a good distance from the plants, but I know I've seen some T5 bulb replacing LED strips as well. Since the LEDs are distributed thinly, are those rated for closer to the plant so you could keep the fixture close so the fluoros still do something? Anyone know of anything like this that hits the right red spectrums?


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## AltarNation (Feb 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> its a big fat 611nm spike typicial of most commerical (cheap) tri-band phosphors. From the SPD alone it looks like the average 6500k with a little less green than average which would lend the pink/purplish hue rather than the more properly blended white output from a bulb with equal spikes in RGB. I kinda think it was a message when the two Fiji Purps I ordered both arrived broken in two... I think someone was telling me not to waste the slots in my fixture on em, I kinda got soured by KZ's shadiness in refusing to release their data, I think we know why! Thomaz Pohl of KZ, sir you can cram your $30 bulbs up your cram hole!
> 
> Thanks again to Blueb for getting this chart done


Much thanks to both of you! Mr Pohl can kiss my ass!


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## AltarNation (Feb 8, 2012)

Just got an email, they're backordered on the red suns through this ebay vendor too. False advertising drives me nuts. I told him to refund for now...


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 8, 2012)




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## Undercover Cop (Feb 8, 2012)

Im still waiting on my florasuns, but from the pics Im seeing they definately look pinkish. Remember the Red Sun is almost pure 630nm red, where the FS is still RGB so it will be more whitish by definition, I think they're rated at 5500k like commercial tubes, they just have a wider swatch of red which covers 610-660 where commercial tubes have a peak at 610 only. If you're trying to increase overall red output you'll need red suns, cuz for every FS you add you're adding its red AND blue so you're not increasing your ratio of red vs blue, its holding equal. I will use FS's in the same place as I was using 6500k's or 3000k's


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## BlueB (Feb 8, 2012)

They don't look that pink in person, I think it's the camera making them look redder. UC can you post a photo of your aquamedic plantgrow next to a flora sun when you get those? I will get on another photo of these.


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## C.Indica (Feb 8, 2012)

So due to research I've been doing,
I've decided that ultimately for my bloom room I'll be going with an "EYE Hortilux Blue MH"..

I REALLY like T5, but based on replacement cost for a full wave of PAR T5's,
especially with the short life of T5-VHO (Such as those RedSun's)

I just can't afford a ~$150 wave of bulbs to be replaced so often.
I don't grow for profit, I just self supply.

However, I will be getting a single T5 bulb to supplement some strong Blues,
to be paired with a standard 6400k T5HO bulb.

Anybody have a suggestion?
I'm thinking the SuperActinic T5, but will this spectrum mix well with a 6400k @ 50/50 ratio,
for a strong Vegetative/Mother light?


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 8, 2012)

BlueB thank you for all your hard work here. It is very hard for me lately to keep up with all the activity here. I am online reading the thread and appreciate everyones hard work. This thread has grown into its own and i thank everyone for their contributions. I do enjoy the latest and greatest bud porn. I am happy to say i will be traveling back to Europe shortly, Amsterdam and Spain  I will share pictures and notes  
I did receive my beautiful seeds sensi mix A&B(green house seeds) sent regular post mixed with glass beads  Since that was a test run i am sure i will have no problems shipping the same way again. Hello space cake! 
I am still trying to find a 24 bulb T5 fixture i definitely dont want to make one !!! Although it looks like i may have to just bite the bullet and get 2 16 bulb bad boys.... 
There are some bulbs in Amsterdam that have blown me away as far as HID goes.. 
Plasma may be my next investment  I do love my T5 but again im all about the experimentation and trying to make things better for the community.


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## PetFlora (Feb 9, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> So due to research I've been doing,
> I've decided that ultimately for my bloom room I'll be going with an "EYE Hortilux Blue MH"..
> 
> I REALLY like T5, but based on replacement cost for a full wave of PAR T5's,
> ...


If you don't already have T5 fixtures, I would get a couple 2 bulb fixtures to parallel your hortilux. Consider 2 Red Suns (or 1 RS + 1 FloraSun) and 2 Coral Waves for flower and ~ 2 Super Actinics for veg, possibly keep 1 for flower too


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## falcon223 (Feb 9, 2012)

OK I just got off the phone with UVL Lighting. I asked if there was a dealer I could purchase red suns from that are of a new stock, because I am tired of sending back the defective ones. I talked to Jeff and told him I got 3 red suns from Hello lights and they are all bad. He sead there are no new shipments out. He is waiting on a shipment from the manufacturer .

800-435-7779

Now the good news, he is going to send me 3 new bulbs when the new shipment gets in. No charge to me. 
More good news, all he asked me was my address. No Prof of sale or anything like that. 
I wish I had toled him I bought 6 from hello lights.

Just tell the girl on the phone you need to talk to Jeff, in aquarium lights.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 9, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> OK I just got off the phone with UVL Lighting. I asked if there was a dealer I could purchase red suns from that are of a new stock, because I am tired of sending back the defective ones. I talked to Jeff and told him I got 3 red suns from Hello lights and they are all bad. He sead there are no new shipments out. He is waiting on a shipment from the manufacturer .
> 
> 800-435-7779
> 
> ...


So the guy did you a solid nd treated you fair with good customer service and then you wished you would have lied to him and taken advantage? 

What a guy.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 9, 2012)

For you guys doing production grows. You will 100% want to rethink your bulb choices here and the reason for using T5's. Stick to bulbs that are under $10 or you will be hurting in he end.

Scrog and trim all bottom growth or you will be extremely disappointed.

Always keep a 6500k bulb mixed in with your 2700-3000k bulbs during flower as it helps create a budget seekers Par.

5 plants per 16 bulbs (badboy size) and you can def hit 2-3z per plant.


Bulb choice for the budget conscience is as follows. All are 48" T5 HO bulbs

Zoomed Flora Suns $9

Home Depot 4100k bulbs $9

HTGSupply 2900k bulbs $8

Htgsupply (grow bulbs) $8

Ushio 3000k $6. 

Quantum Hort Bloom and Grow bulbs $10


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## falcon223 (Feb 9, 2012)

No I sead I wished I had told him more bulbs, Did not say I really would do that. I am way to honest to lie.


But I have to say he has the best customer service I have ever seen.


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## falcon223 (Feb 9, 2012)

Lucius, what are you saying? That is not PAR growing. but if it can get 2 OZ a plant I would like to see pic of what you have grown.
I have spent a lot on bulbs, and most where on the cheap side. Still looking for the red bulb that will put T5 in the growers choice book. 
I am having fun with this T5 stuff. just a bit expensive, but then this hobby is like any other. Time consuming and expensive.


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## Sneex (Feb 9, 2012)

I like the set-ups and all the sexy lil ones


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## mipainpatient (Feb 9, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> especially with the short life of T5-VHO (Such as those RedSun's)


It is my understanding that the quoted life would be if you had the bulb in a VHO fixture, which is basically an overdriven t5 setup with improved ballasts etc, and so the VHO bulbs also have improved electrodes
the takeaway:
VHO bulbs should outlast normal bulbs in an HO fixture, so definitely shouldn't have to replace these first (Red Sun manufacture issues notwithstanding)
my $.02
MPP






edit:
also after you "conclude" that the bulb life has ended---assuming no catastrophic failure occurs, life's familiar clause---you could anticipiate the depreciated output of the bulb (you could totally use a light meter to gauge this, just note the initial "lumens" or however the meter reads, and periodically measure until it has dropped to a % of the original that you don't like) and have another unit, maybe smaller than your veg/flower unit, where you can repurpose them to grow food indoors. I'm in a cold climate and have tomatoes fruiting under 1 single 4 foot 6500K generic and a bunch of lettuce doing GREAT under the tiny bit of light that bulb puts out, so imagine what a whole PAR setup dedicated to food would put out. And actually if you do the math on the shorter turnover for certain foods (salad greens, beans, peas, etc) vs the store cost (especially organics) you should be saving almost as much money if not more than you do on producing your own medicine. So in that respect I think t5 has some real potential for the home-based self-producer, just try not to move the bulbs around too much, knowing the electrode-end glue problems.

Also lucius was talking about comboing 6500Ks with 2700Ks
I've heard that lumen readings between a 2700K and a 6500K come out higher than between (2) 2700Ks or (2) 6500Ks
and anyone perusing the thread might appreciate the reminder:
Lighting is just part of the equation bros&gals, you need to dial in the rest of your grow too. Yield etc, is easily tweaked with factors like CO2 & soil aeration and should be considered as a variable of its own right, only partially linked to light. I think I already posted the flux density paper but if not call me out and I will.

Theoretically, if you meet those flux numbers you should be able to call yield covered from the perspective of light. So your t5 PAR experience is about turning that "flux number" from an arbitrary Kelvin temperature tag for phosphorescence and its human visual results to a range called "good quality light" in academic papers, where within the white light present, ratios of blue wavelengths to red and infrared are considered as they all play a roll in coaxing the plant to present the morphologies that it does in its natural environment to you in your artificial environment because you desire those delicious and medicinal and nutritious (seeds for omega3/6's) morphologies. 
But if you want to start with the equation for photosynthesis, light is not a reactant or product, it is an energy source, like heat. If you don't have your CO2 locked in, you don't care about yield. Period. Granted expecting a pound out of a gallon sized container is probably a stretch even at ideal temperature/water/light/CO2/nutrient/pruning/vegtime/flower conditions/stress regimin so stay realistic please (and don't tell me you can do it with a 1gall netpot because that ress is sure as hell going to be bigger than 1gall).


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## falcon223 (Feb 9, 2012)

You know what the guy at UVL. would not admit there is a defect. He told me the manufacturer checked the returns and said, there is no defect. But he was quick to help out. So we may never know what is wrong with the current red suns. 

I hope they fixed the problem.


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## mipainpatient (Feb 9, 2012)

when you change the bulb, do you grab the cap or the glass?

edit:
before ya jump on me for blaming the recipient of a defective product, a scenario I've lived out time and again in other realms, it could totally be the result of shipping&handling too, making the unit unstable enough to reduce the working life (your driving unit is of course part of the equation, those little parts under the cover/your diy setup do wear out & burn out with use & abuse) Anyone tried taking up their frustrations with the shipping company alone or in pair with the sender and see if you can get some free shipping action for future purchases, if it is deserved? I ask because from my customer service days, most reps are happy as hell to right an email instead of having to comp you themselves


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 9, 2012)

I think its time for a _pic update_ before I chop chop chop 

So Im still waiting on my latest T5 bulbs (replacement AquaMedic PlantGrow, 2 AquaticLife Roseates, 4 FloraSuns, and 4 RedSuns---backordered) So im waiting until I get them to re-configure my veg/flower lighting. Im planning to get one more 4 bulb panel which will go in the veg box and with the single bulb/reflector I bought today for the side, I will have 5 bulbs for Veg. Then I will move the 8bulb fixture from the veg box to the flower box, with 8 on top and the two 4bulb panels I already have on the sides, Ill have 16 total bulbs taking up the left 2/3 of the box, then the 400wHPS will run on the far right 2feet. 

I had 6 mexican bagseeds that I had 12/12 from seedling, 4 of which have already shown their balls and were pulled. One of the two left looks very short and squatty and may be an oddball indica seed. But they're both healthy and thriving under the t5 12/12.

The 4 kindbud seedlings are doing well, the AutoHobbit is actually growing the fastest and is already growing sidebranches. The BlueCheese is labeled with a ? because Im only assuming that she's a BlueCheese because the friend that gave it to me said she was, but who knows for sure lol. She's (Im hoping for a girl also but cant be sure like the other *fem seeds) about 10 days older than the others which is why she's bigger.

View attachment 2049634View attachment 2049635
She's sitting in Pure Water and molasses until tomorrow when I get home from work, then she's going into the dark

View attachment 2049636View attachment 2049637
6 in 12/12... down to 2 today , 4 already showed male (mexican bagseeds)

View attachment 2049638View attachment 2049639
Daddy's little girls  They're so cute at this age!


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## mipainpatient (Feb 9, 2012)

Tight UC. 

I found some stuff that has me looking at infrared supplement, was looking at an SPD for a heat lamp and found this nice quote, but let me set it up first:
In case you were ever wondering if you could get a girl hot using a heat lamp, remember that "IR-C is already absorbed in the horny layer" and proceed with caution, because penetration into the dermis is already optimized at 30cm. Yuck yuck. so nice that they give you output numbers/nms at measured distances....saves lots of time.
in the spirit of community i'll share:
http://www.infraphil.info/Philips_Infraphil-PAR38E.pdf
SPD is on bottom left of page 2, and in case you are wondering I am NOT going with this light, but it is nice to see some. I imagine the bulb/unit I settle on will have to be field tested for a useful quantitation but still nice to get to look at pictures.
Cheers all, 
MPP


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## Phaeton (Feb 9, 2012)

I threw an UVB tube in with mine, the Arcadia is the greenish one. Like you wouldn't recognize Red Sun and Florasun.


ArcadiaD3+, 122 uw at 29"
View attachment 2049653 This is enough intensity to make a difference.

http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/ has more specs.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 10, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Lucius, what are you saying? That is not PAR growing. but if it can get 2 OZ a plant I would like to see pic of what you have grown.
> I have spent a lot on bulbs, and most where on the cheap side. Still looking for the red bulb that will put T5 in the growers choice book.
> I am having fun with this T5 stuff. just a bit expensive, but then this hobby is like any other. Time consuming and expensive.


Doing plenty of testing now with most recent harvest. Wil let you know.


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## PetFlora (Feb 10, 2012)

I heard back from Jeff at UV Lighting. He asked when I purchased, where I purchased, proof of purchase/date, product run code on bulbs, and, wants me to return the 2 bulbs for inspection. I said fine, send me a RA. Waiting to hear his position on that


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## PetFlora (Feb 10, 2012)

Today's pics. I have no idea of the genetics, other than supposedly Dutch seed. She is small < 20" buds are smallish, no colas. I was asked to baby sit and finish. Plant now 20 days under FloraSun + Coral Wave + Red Life/Sun + FloraSun + Coral Wave. She seems to like this combination

January 21st 

View attachment 2050496

Today Top Bud and lower bud

View attachment 2050487View attachment 2050488


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## AltarNation (Feb 10, 2012)

I'm kinda slackin on the pics because I'm having trouble getting good shots along the way and then I miss my opportunity... but, after I pulled 7 ounces early just before christmas, (whoops, should have let them go! newb) I ended up pulling another 3 zips off the bottom buds which I let mature past the others... (which matured too far and some hermi'd--whoops! newb!) that totals 10 zips off 430 watts... so at least I exceeded the famed .5g/w aim. AND, this was my first time growing buds, and there were definitely health problems with the plants that had nothing to do with lighting, so I feel like I got some really good results all things considered. Oh, and the buds are primo quality, even if some of the plants grew out airier than I'd like. Some grew out damn near rock hard buds, even the small ones at the bottoms of the stems. And everything was absolutely covered in crystals.

They're not the prettiest buds in the world, my hackjob post-dry manicure was pretty bad and my photography lacked proper lighting, but, Here's some of the early harvest... chose to leave foliage on while drying... on the upside, I got a nice slow dry and the buds cured great after... on the downside, it's a pain in the ass to trim out foliage-thick buds on the dried buds. Still, the buds were really nice even with the extra leaf, so it might be worth it for the slow cure. Reminder, this is my first grow, this is from bag seed, and was having some health issues when I opted to harvest (hence the funky leaf colors):


And, I mean, I harvested some too early and some too late, and both were really awesome smoke. Everyone who's tried it has been blown away. Well, the latter stuff is still curing but it is smoothing out nicely and still has a great smell, taste, and even potency, despite being probably a bit over-developed.

Here's a couple shots I snapped while trimming up the later harvest:



And here's a few shots of the (already jarred) dried buds... they are fluffy but I don't really care, 3 zips is 3 zips and the potency and smell is still great. Sorry, I apparently failed to take pics of the latter crop dried outside of the jars.



After trimming all the buds from the stems and into the jars, I was left with a huge pile of shake... here's the fat joint I rolled from it, with a few hermi seeds I found in the shake:




Overall it didn't end up being the quality I wanted, but I blame myself mostly, and newb mistakes. It certainly wasn't the lights!



I think that this method is proven, and no matter how you look at it, it's certainly a worthwhile method. The MAIN reason I use T5 is to keep heat control and fire hazards to a minimum. I might have spent a little more on bulbs than I needed to, but since this is for self-supply I'm not too worried about it overall, it's paying itself off quickly.

Since I timed everything poorly, I ended up taking clones at a time that gave the results no where to go when they were ready... rigged up a CFL-based veg chamber and used that to hold them over for way too long, over a month. Decent lighting, but not enough really. I transplanted each of these into full 5 gallon bags which gave each of them some new space to grow roots... and I think I can make it work despite the stretching because I supercropped everything over and laid it all out horizontally across the chamber... next I'm going to build 3 screens, one for each, which add up to total the footprint of my T5 unit. I will take pics of this process when I get there. Just waiting for some materials to arrive...

One more, Bulb Porn, here's my current setup with +2 bulbs in center under ballast:



Hoping to greatly exceed my first results now that I have a better idea of how to care for them, better starting soil mix, and a couple extra tubes.... not to mention this time I am SCROGing 3 plants instead of LSTing 7 in the same space... will be interesting to see how it goes...


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## AltarNation (Feb 10, 2012)

Phaeton said:


> I threw an UVB tube in with mine, the Arcadia is the greenish one. Like you wouldn't recognize Red Sun and Florasun.
> View attachment 2049649
> 
> ArcadiaD3+, 122 uw at 29"
> ...


Phaeton your setup is amazing dude... rock on. Can't believe how many T5 fixtures you have in there... makes me want to buy more... heh.


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## BlueB (Feb 10, 2012)

Update,
I got some new bulbs to try out, the Giesemann Midday and the Actinic Plus. They are both REALLY nice. The Midday is high in the 630nm range, the graph online is wrong. The graph on the package is correct. They have a golden type of appearance. The Actinic Plus covers the entire blue range really well.

Midday, Flora Sun, Red Sun, Coral Wave, Red Sun, Actinic Plus, Flora Sun, Midday,


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## Myles117 (Feb 10, 2012)

hell of a bulb lineup blue 

just curious, how do you guys dispose of old/unwanted flouro tubes?


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## BlueB (Feb 10, 2012)

I eat them,
Or I take them to the hazardous waste recycling center.


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## Myles117 (Feb 10, 2012)

do they charge? I don't have one near me but gotta get rid of some...


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## hyroot (Feb 10, 2012)

Myles117 said:


> do they charge? I don't have one near me but gotta get rid of some...



[video=youtube;X8tmCMpV10c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8tmCMpV10c&amp;t=22s[/video]


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## Myles117 (Feb 10, 2012)

hahahahha mmmmm nice deep breath of poisonous powders


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## mipainpatient (Feb 10, 2012)

I have a box that blown ones go in, like I mentioned in an earlier post, anything that still radiates light is used to grow veggies. When the box eventually fills (I have CFLs from my house that occasionally go too) I'll go dump it all at haz disposal, flat fee for volume so might as well save up bulbs in my situation.


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## BlueB (Feb 10, 2012)

hyroot said:


> [video=youtube;X8tmCMpV10c]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8tmCMpV10c&amp;t=22s[/video]


NOW THAT'S USIN YOUR HEAD!!
The haz-waste place here doesn't charge for normal household crap, such as light bulbs. For paint and shit like that I think they do charge.


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## BlueB (Feb 10, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I'm kinda slackin on the pics because I'm having trouble getting good shots along the way and then I miss my opportunity... but, after I pulled 7 ounces early just before christmas, (whoops, should have let them go! newb) I ended up pulling another 3 zips off the bottom buds which I let mature past the others... (which matured too far and some hermi'd--whoops! newb!) that totals 10 zips off 430 watts... so at least I exceeded the famed .5g/w aim. AND, this was my first time growing buds, and there were definitely health problems with the plants that had nothing to do with lighting, so I feel like I got some really good results all things considered. Oh, and the buds are primo quality, even if some of the plants grew out airier than I'd like. Some grew out damn near rock hard buds, even the small ones at the bottoms of the stems. And everything was absolutely covered in crystals.
> 
> They're not the prettiest buds in the world, my hackjob post-dry manicure was pretty bad and my photography lacked proper lighting, but, Here's some of the early harvest... chose to leave foliage on while drying... on the upside, I got a nice slow dry and the buds cured great after... on the downside, it's a pain in the ass to trim out foliage-thick buds on the dried buds. Still, the buds were really nice even with the extra leaf, so it might be worth it for the slow cure. Reminder, this is my first grow, this is from bag seed, and was having some health issues when I opted to harvest (hence the funky leaf colors):
> View attachment 2050497View attachment 2050498View attachment 2050500View attachment 2050502View attachment 2050504View attachment 2050506View attachment 2050507View attachment 2050509View attachment 2050510View attachment 2050511View attachment 2050512View attachment 2050513View attachment 2050515View attachment 2050516View attachment 2050517View attachment 2050518
> ...


What was your final bulb mixture that you liked best? I can't find where you list the names and order of the lights in the fixture. Your buds look real nice, it doesn't look like you did anything wrong to me! I've been playing with bulb mixtures for some time now, and there is for sure an optimal and not so optimal bulb mixture. I can tell you that for sure if you have a red sun in the fixture, that there should be at least 1 straight blue bulb to even it out. So far I'm REALLY liking the Giesemann Actinic Plus. It is an absolute perfect bulb for the blue. The Actinic Plus goes really well next to the Red Suns I have found and am now starting to get positive results from the red suns with those next to them. Instead of using any 6500K lights in your flower mixture that I believe was suggested by someone recently, use the 6000K Midday's because they add quite a bit of red to the mixture and they also have really nice coverage in the light blue zone! They are really working well for me! Anyway, what bulb combo did you use for your last harvest and what was the bulb order? That photo you have with the light tubes looks really blue heavy! I think that it is going to make your buds airier if you don't get some more red in there. I made the plunge and bought some RED LEDS to try out as supplemental 660nm. Damn expensive for only 40 watts. It's like paying $100 for only 1 T5 bulb! I wish someone would make a straight far red bulb for the T5 world. That will be the day! I think the added red will increase bud growth rate and might help in size.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 10, 2012)

Was wondering what ya'll thought of my babies pre-harvest (graduation?) pics? Before anyone trips for chopping off the fan leaves, she's going into 48-72 of dark tonite then she's done, after two months I was just so curious to see what she had under her clothes lol. Kinda obvious what I think she resembles

before...


then... 
  

enjoy




! Like a desert sunset. A little SW flavor for ya lol!


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## C.Indica (Feb 11, 2012)

Hurrah! Don't worry about chopping off leaves, she's not photosynthesizing anymore.
Just make sure you take enough leaves off, and get enough air flow,
without so much direct wind as to close stomata.

She still needs gas exchange, and air flow so she won't mold.

Looks beautiful, I can't wait for shots in better (whiter) light!


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> What was your final bulb mixture that you liked best? I can't find where you list the names and order of the lights in the fixture. Your buds look real nice, it doesn't look like you did anything wrong to me! I've been playing with bulb mixtures for some time now, and there is for sure an optimal and not so optimal bulb mixture. I can tell you that for sure if you have a red sun in the fixture, that there should be at least 1 straight blue bulb to even it out. So far I'm REALLY liking the Giesemann Actinic Plus. It is an absolute perfect bulb for the blue. The Actinic Plus goes really well next to the Red Suns I have found and am now starting to get positive results from the red suns with those next to them. Instead of using any 6500K lights in your flower mixture that I believe was suggested by someone recently, use the 6000K Midday's because they add quite a bit of red to the mixture and they also have really nice coverage in the light blue zone! They are really working well for me! Anyway, what bulb combo did you use for your last harvest and what was the bulb order? That photo you have with the light tubes looks really blue heavy! I think that it is going to make your buds airier if you don't get some more red in there. I made the plunge and bought some RED LEDS to try out as supplemental 660nm. Damn expensive for only 40 watts. It's like paying $100 for only 1 T5 bulb! I wish someone would make a straight far red bulb for the T5 world. That will be the day! I think the added red will increase bud growth rate and might help in size.


Hey-

Like I said the late trim left a lot of rough foliage on that I wasn't happy with... and there was definitely something funny going on with them before I chopped because I was losing fan leaves left and right and then leaves were browning out in the middle of the buds, going completely brittle dry and brown...

Anyway, it is still really great stuff, like I said... I practically disappeared from here for a month because I was smokin so much of it, hahaha... but like any good perfectionist artist type, (  ) I am shooting for a little higher up the bar.

I learned on the late harvest that I much prefer to trim before drying... but it also dried a lot faster. Of course it was all very small buds comparatively too. And the humidity may have been different; I didn't bother to find my hygrometer for the second batch for some reason... 

Bulb line-up I used for flowering the first time was:

2 fiji purps
2 coral waves
2 red sun
1 UVL 75/25
1 UVL Super Actinic

This time I am trying the following setup in a 10 bulb (retrofitted 2 add'l slots in the middle as shown above):

4 Flora Sun
2 Coral Wave
2 Red Sun
1 Super Actinic
1 75/25

I want to get two more red suns to put in place of the last two, but can't find them anywhere. Considering the fijis in there instead but probably not ideal either since it spikes at 610 and not 630... I'm gonna look up the graph and pricing on those Geissman Midday's...


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I can tell you that for sure if you have a red sun in the fixture, that there should be at least 1 straight blue bulb to even it out. So far I'm REALLY liking the Giesemann Actinic Plus. It is an absolute perfect bulb for the blue. The Actinic Plus goes really well next to the Red Suns I have found and am now starting to get positive results from the red suns with those next to them.


Wow, I didn't catch this when I was replying at first... went back to finish up reading and saw this, and it makes a lot of sense when I think about it. So for what I have now, I can cluster the blues and the reds side by side on each side with the floras "surrounding" them probably... Picturing:

Flora Sun
Red Sun
Super Actinic
Coral Wave
-
Flora Sun
Coral Wave
-
Flora Sun
75/25 (or 454?)
Red Sun
Flora Sun

This should help amplify the blending of the blues and reds I think... what do you think Blue?



> Instead of using any 6500K lights in your flower mixture that I believe was suggested by someone recently, use the 6000K Midday's because they add quite a bit of red to the mixture and they also have really nice coverage in the light blue zone! They are really working well for me!


I am going to go look into those after I'm done here, haha.



> Anyway, what bulb combo did you use for your last harvest and what was the bulb order? That photo you have with the light tubes looks really blue heavy! I think that it is going to make your buds airier if you don't get some more red in there. I made the plunge and bought some RED LEDS to try out as supplemental 660nm. Damn expensive for only 40 watts. It's like paying $100 for only 1 T5 bulb! I wish someone would make a straight far red bulb for the T5 world. That will be the day! I think the added red will increase bud growth rate and might help in size.


What are you using for LED? I am very interested in adding something like that, but was concerned with keeping it the proper distance from the plant while still getting T5 coverage... any issues there?

BTW that picture is the latter setup, the one I have in right now, except the 454's are going to be taken out and replaced with Flora Suns today. (Actually going to rearrange as above)

And yeah, I am definitely too blue, trying to figure how to fix that. I think just getting those 454's out and putting the Flora Suns in will make a difference, but I want to go farther with it. 

What would you do with the above layout? What would you take out to put in the Middays if I added those? Do you think it would work to pull the 75/25 and the Super Actinic and use mid-days for the blue supplement AND the extra red, or would that be too red?

I might have to pick up a 4-bulb to use for a veg chamber soon just because I'll have so many extra blues kicking around.


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

Ho-lee-shit dude, those look amazing. Crap. Makes me want to do an HID combo!

That shit is amazing!


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## BlueB (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm still in experimentation mode myself! For sure I would replace the 75/25 with a Midday because it is not needed. The 75/25 is a big green spike with some blue in it. The midday has the same green spike, has the blue, but it also has the 630nm red. Also, keep in mind that the graph online is incorrect. I will take a photo of the graph on the package for you to give a better idea. I purchased the UVL Super Actinics awhile ago and have replaced them now with the Giesemann Actinic Plus because it is like 2 bulbs in one. That way you can free up another slot. The Actinic Plus and the Midday both put out a lot of lumens as well. The Actinic Plus is da shit! It's like a super actinic and a 454 in one, and it goes great next to a red sun. I've found that my plants can only handle 1 red sun for some reason, so I now only have one red sun and 1 giesemann actinic plus. I'm doing this in my veg fixture and my flower fixture. The red LEDs I purchased are the Kessil 150 reds. They are only 40 watts each, so I figure they won't be that overpowering compared to the T5's. The more fixtures the better, and the more light the better. I have quite the arrangement of T5 bulbs including the 75/25 and super actinic so I know how it goes grabbing new bulbs. Experimentation costs $$ sometimes though . I feel like all the bulbs do a great job so don't take what I say as the absolute, this is just what is working for me so far. Instead of not using certain bulbs, it would be better to just buy another fixture for side-lighting, and as far as getting that 6:1 red/blue ratio, the only way to keep it high in the 660nm range is to use LEDs for now. The Flora Suns are a 1:1 red blue so adding more Flora Suns, although will add more 660nm, will not boost that 1:1 ratio. The higher red ratio is what's going to make for bigger, denser buds. A lot of people are having pretty good luck with the red sun even though they are only 630nm. I remember the first UFO LEDs only consisted of 630nm reds and didn't work that well. Now that they've switched to the 660nm reds they are working according to other users. All in all, I'm still up in the air with the red suns, but they are currently the only way to keep the 6:1 ratio and still use T5s alone. Hope this helps ya.


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## BlueB (Feb 11, 2012)

I really like both of these bulbs. The Midday has a good range of red and the actinic plus is a great blue bulb. It seems like you could get away with these 2 bulbs plus the Flora Suns and Red Suns as a good flower mixture. When I get my 660nm LEDs I might pull the red suns, but I'm not sure yet. It will depend on how the plants respond to the light.


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

Too rich for my blood on the kessils right now... all LED seems too expensive to me at this juncture. Thanks a lot for posting the graphs. The Midday has way more red than I thought... it looks like that big spike is at 630nm... wondering how that compares to a Red Sun... going to look into those other bulbs and see what it'd cost me...


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## BlueB (Feb 11, 2012)

The overall appearance of the Midday's is a bright yellow/gold. The Red Suns are pure red which makes it important to blend the light before it reaches the plants. The Midday's may be more user friendly, but again these are only a 1:1 red/blue ratio. Yeah, the price on the Kessil LEDs is a joke. But they are made in the USA which may be a plus. They also manufacture their own LED technology. I won't be buying any more of them unless they make a huge increase in yield or quality.


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

Will definitely be keeping tabs on that.

Considering some cheap low wattage 660nm LED fixtures dispersed on three sides as side-lighting or something... I'm going to have some cash to play with soon so I will hit the local shop and see what they have on hand, maybe I'll find a solution.

Hesitant to add more fluoros due to heat concerns.. but I ordered a new can fan which should give me an extra 100 cfm to work with so maybe I will add a 4-bulb in the back vertically or something. Also have considered just going with a good old fashioned 400 watt HPS addition... but that would be a LOT more heat to work with I'd imagine..


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 11, 2012)

Last week













This week


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

Beautiful greenery! NICE leaf size with the lighter, haha.


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## tehshyt (Feb 11, 2012)

Undercover, did your plants grow like 5'' in a week? Holy shit.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 11, 2012)

tehshyt said:


> Undercover, did your plants grow like 5'' in a week? Holy shit.


 undercover or undercurrent? Mine (the saguaro cactus) grew about 3" of bud height during flower, thats all. Everything else was bulk


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## BlueB (Feb 11, 2012)

HOLY SHIT MAN! The power of hydro! Looks like you got a little Mg deficiency. That's awesome that you are using those extra tough rubbermaid type containers, I picked up a few of those exact same containers a couple years ago to make an aeroponics machine out of them. It worked really well and they are nice for the fact that the lid sits lower than the edges of the container so it prevents dripping on the edge. Hydro sure does grow plants fast, but I never get that same sweet taste that I do from soil. Quick update,


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

Okay I finally found what I was looking for more or less, but it's a T8 not a T5. Damn them!

http://www.growlightexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1549&cPath=1#googlebase

I could work in a 2-bulb T8 unit at the back as a 660nm supplement, but I'm worried about the uneven exposure... some plants being too close, some too far away from the LEDs... if I could find a T8 fixture with the ballasts remoted like the one I'm using now for the T5s, I could put the T8 660nm tubes right down the middle of the whole fixture like I've got my two retrofitted T5's now... that's something to think about...

Of course I have no idea what the quality of the LEDs is... still intriguing...


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## BlueB (Feb 11, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Okay I finally found what I was looking for more or less, but it's a T8 not a T5. Damn them!
> 
> http://www.growlightexpress.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=1549&cPath=1#googlebase
> 
> I could work in a 2-bulb T8 unit at the back as a 660nm supplement, but I'm worried about the uneven exposure... some plants being too close, some too far away from the LEDs... if I could find a T8 fixture with the ballasts remoted like the one I'm using now for the T5s, I could put the T8 660nm tubes right down the middle of the whole fixture like I've got my two retrofitted T5's now... that's something to think about...


I highly doubt these LEDs run in typical T8 fixtures. I've looked into these types of lights before and they have them for T5's as well. But again, they need a special fixture I'm sure. LEDs don't run off the same power as floros. I could be wrong, that would be cool.


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I highly doubt these LEDs run in typical T8 fixtures. I've looked into these types of lights before and they have them for T5's as well. But again, they need a special fixture I'm sure. LEDs don't run off the same power as floros. I could be wrong, that would be cool.


I'm not sure... there's a couple responses here, kind of conflicting:
http://www.greners.com/i/grow-lights/led-brand/agroled-t8-led-tubes-white-blue-veg.html



> Can these be plugged into any 4' T8 fixture? -Rob
> 
> Yes these should work with any standard T8 fixture but it must have the fluorescent ballasts removed and rewired straight to the power cord. These tubes are self ballasted. -Greners Staff
> 
> ...


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

if you DO need a certain fixture, it's this one I guess:

http://stores.homestead.com/GreenPathGardenSupply2/-strse-764/AgroLED--LED-/Detail.bok

The price is comparable to the price for a 4-bulb T5 48" fixture... but the bulbs are of course 80 a piece, so it'd be pricey to fill up that fixture.

http://www.amazon.com/LED-FAR-660nm-Grow-Light/dp/B004D50MFQ/ref=pd_sim_sbs_ol_2

Considering a couple of those in lieu of something like the Kessils... but I have no idea if it's quality...


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## BlueB (Feb 11, 2012)

I found another site that said they can run on a T5 fixture with an adapter, but yeah it says the LED ballast is built into the bulb so you need to re-wire the fixture so that the power comes directly from the wall and not through the ballast. In other words, they do not run off the floro ballasts. Didn't think so. I'm sure it would be possible to wire your fixture up so that a few of the bulb slots are wired directly to the wall and the other slots are still wired to the floro ballast to run your T5 floros. At that point, you might as well get some retro kits and build your own fixture. The other problem with these LED tube lights is that they are only using 0.06w LED technology. That's pretty lame considering 1w, 3w and 5w single chip LEDs are already being used in the agricultural world. They would most likely run cool however, but not emit nearly as much light as a floro. Probably not even half the amount of light that floros do. The Kessil lights have a 2-year warranty, which doesn't say much. From the reviews I've read, if you get Kessil LEDs that work then they work really well, but if they are defective then I guess you just return them right? I figure it's worth a try anyway. I will measure the light output of both of the LEDs when they come and make sure they are putting out the same lumens. A year from now, I will check them again and make sure they are still putting out the same lumens. If not, then the manufacturer can send me another one or two for free! 

The only reason I am going to try the Kessil lights is to add the much needed 660nm spectrum that is lacking with the floros. There is obviously no reason to get blue LEDs since the floros put out a healthy blue spectrum already. The Kessil I'm getting is the h150 Red, which only puts out 645-660nm spectrum. Hopefully I will be able to get the light to blend well.



AltarNation said:


> if you DO need a certain fixture, it's this one I guess:
> 
> http://stores.homestead.com/GreenPathGardenSupply2/-strse-764/AgroLED--LED-/Detail.bok
> 
> ...


At $60 a piece for 12w, you might as well get a Kessil for $195 that puts out 36w. Then you don't have to buy any fixtures or do any wiring to make a spot for the par38 LED bulb.

http://blog.softwareadvice.com/articles/construction/are-led-fluorescent-tubes-ready-for-prime-time-1041920/


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## AltarNation (Feb 11, 2012)

Does make sense! I could do one kessil I guess, but I'm not sure how easily I'd be able to hit the whole 4x2 footprint inside my tent with the T5's in the way. It really depends on how close you can get it to the plants safely I guess. Still doubt I'd be able to get light across the whole footprint.

And yeah, I realize that the only reason to go LED is for the 660nm... I might have linked to a blue model but they do have a 660nm as well. That being said, if it's not 1w LED it's probably not worthwhile I'm guessing.

Even with the Wide model, I kind of doubt I can make the kessil work without flipping my T5's to a vertical setup or something... I'd end up burning the nearest plants even if I could get it in a spot that would hit the whole 4x2 canopy from the side...

--

Now that you got me investigating Kessils, those H350 models have some pretty damn sweet spectrum graphs... why am I messing with all these fluoros haha 

--

BlueB, if you can, when you get the kessils going let me know the closest it seems you can keep it to the plants comfortably...


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## falcon223 (Feb 11, 2012)

You know you smoking good stuff when you are sitting here reading t5 info on the computer and you can hear a Triffid moving around in the grow room??


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## PetFlora (Feb 12, 2012)

I posted a link a while back to a 660 LED bulb that screws in into a regular light fixture. Later I read where some chinese mfgs are simply putting red lenses over the diodes- not saying this bulb is one of those, but be aware. I will look for the link and edit.

This is a 660 UFO 90 for $135 http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=399

http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight-%2d-15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> You know you smoking good stuff when you are sitting here reading t5 info on the computer and you can hear a Triffid moving around in the grow room??


Man I don't know what a Triffid is, so I'll concede that IS some good shit.


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I posted a link a while back to a 660 LED bulb that screws in into a regular light fixture. Later I read where some chinese mfgs are simply putting red lenses over the diodes- not saying this bulb is one of those, but be aware. I will look for the link and edit.
> 
> This is a 660 UFO 90 for $135 http://www.ledwholesalers.com/store/index.php?act=viewProd&productId=399
> 
> http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight---15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html


Yeah, i'm gonna skip those LED fluoro tubes, they seem like a bad idea...

Is tempting to go with something like this UFO you linked but with it needing at least 18 inches from the plants, I'd have to rearrange my tent and put my 8-bulb T5 unit in the back vertically. Otherwise I'd never be able to get the UFO to hit all the plants under my 2'x4' T5 fixture without frying some of them.


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

Unexpected development... I was trying to reveg my favorite of the previous grows but it apparently hermied because I had 5 seedlings sprouting out of the soil yesterday morning. I transplanted them each to their own cups for now, and they are under a CFL. However, they're going to need more light long before my current batch finishes flowering. (Current setup just started 12/12 last week.)

So now I am thinking... I guess I will pick up a 4-bulb 48" unit and set it up separately to veg these ladies while the others flower... but can i get away with over 2 months of vegging 5 plants under one 4-bulb 4 footer? That sounds like I'd be pushing it...?


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## mipainpatient (Feb 12, 2012)

There are some light therapy lights with weaker LEDs (you could put them closer, less rearranging?) on amazon for around $40, I talked to the company and the guy says they do a 90 day return full refund no questions so it seems like someone should try this some day. I think it was 660nm but Ive seen others that were lower. I believe I saw both E26 socket units and standalone for a tad more $$$. 
Sorry if I'm repeating myself, has anyone tried the roseate?
mpp

edit:

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_hpc?_encoding=UTF8&node=3760901&field-brandtextbin=Light-Therapy-LED


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

I saw those light therapy lights... they do say not to leave them unmonitored and I'm not too sure how strong they are... but like you said, maybe weak is better for this application. Tough call. Would definitely need to know more about the units...


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## mipainpatient (Feb 12, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I saw those light therapy lights... they do say not to leave them unmonitored and I'm not too sure how strong they are... but like you said, maybe weak is better for this application. Tough call. Would definitely need to know more about the units...


4 watters (the unit not the diodes) = harmless
they are worried about skin damage from my understanding


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

Yeah, but is it so harmless that it's pointless? That's the other end of the spectrum i guess. Still very curious. At 170 a piece I'd hope they do something.

Hmm, i was looking at a different one than you were. Those light bulb ones might be useful... i could set one up at each corner of the T5 unit or something... but even then, looking at someting like 180 bucks for those four... might be worthwhile if it works...

Edit: Found this review on a parallel listing: http://www.amazon.com/Anti-Aging-Light-Therapy-Lines-Wrinkles/product-reviews/B004E2E2OU/ref=pd_sbs_hpc_cm_cr_acr_img_5?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

Not encouraging... but still, might have been trying to use it for more intense purposes. Still, not sure a weak LED is the solution to my problem either because I'd have to put a lot of those units around to spread a weaker intensity widely.


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## PetFlora (Feb 12, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Unexpected development... I was trying to reveg my favorite of the previous grows but it apparently hermied because I had 5 seedlings sprouting out of the soil yesterday morning. I transplanted them each to their own cups for now, and they are under a CFL. However, they're going to need more light long before my current batch finishes flowering. (Current setup just started 12/12 last week.)
> 
> So now I am thinking... I guess I will pick up a 4-bulb 48" unit and set it up separately to veg these ladies while the others flower... but can i get away with over 2 months of vegging 5 plants under one 4-bulb 4 footer? That sounds like I'd be pushing it...?


If you use Air Pots simply start with smaller pots then transplant, which with APs is relatively simple/easy


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

I don't have airpots... and I do start with smaller containers and transplant anyway. I'm not sure how that solves my problems though. Can you elaborate on the point you're making? Are you saying that if I had airpots I could leave them in the small containers to stunt growth longer if I wanted or something?

I do want to get some air pots fo' sho'... but they're a bit pricey... maybe i can make my own...


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## PetFlora (Feb 12, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I don't have airpots... and I do start with smaller containers and transplant anyway. I'm not sure how that solves my problems though. Can you elaborate on the point you're making? Are you saying that if I had airpots I could leave them in the small containers to stunt growth longer if I wanted or something?


Air Pots grow lateral root systems. Google and watch video. This allows for smaller pots to be used longer without stunting growth. You can easily fit 5 @ 1-2G APs under a 4 bulb


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Air Pots grow lateral root systems. Google and watch video. This allows for smaller pots to be used longer without stunting growth. You can easily fit 5 @ 1-2G APs under a 4 bulb


Well... regardless of the container size or type, the plants' canopies are going to expand on me, that's where my concern lies... just wasn't sure if they are going to get too big to fit comfortably under a section of a 4x4 unit.

But, I think it might work. I'll probably go with this plan. I wasn't planning to have a veg and a flower chamber... ah well... haha.

I'm going to pick up a 5-pack of the 5 liter air pots too, since i found 'em a little cheaper on ebay. Thanks for the idea, PF.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 12, 2012)

Mpp... I got my roseates, I'll post pics tonite roseate vs florasun vs plant grow. The roseates are very white compared though. I'm not impressed. The spd on their box doesn't look too impressive either (couldn't find one before purchase, I bought em just from the claim of 650nm) for the price I like the florasun


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## mipainpatient (Feb 12, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah, but is it so harmless that it's pointless? That's the other end of the spectrum i guess. Still very curious. At 170 a piece I'd hope they do something.
> 
> Hmm, i was looking at a different one than you were. Those light bulb ones might be useful... i could set one up at each corner of the T5 unit or something... but even then, looking at someting like 180 bucks for those four... might be worthwhile if it works...
> 
> ...


A unit that lacks intensity can be maximized by reducing the distance. My impression is that you are still trying to confirm a 660nm effect, the 90 day money back makes this a risk free so I was just pitching that Someone out there should try it Sometime. Honestly you should just solder your own 4-10 diode unit and test it that way. Will probably save you lots of $$$ and you can get the exact diodes you want. Just takes some know-how and some basic equipment....multimeter would be nice.


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## AltarNation (Feb 12, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> A unit that lacks intensity can be maximized by reducing the distance. My impression is that you are still trying to confirm a 660nm effect, the 90 day money back makes this a risk free so I was just pitching that Someone out there should try it Sometime. Honestly you should just solder your own 4-10 diode unit and test it that way. Will probably save you lots of $$$ and you can get the exact diodes you want. Just takes some know-how and some basic equipment....multimeter would be nice.


Yarr... I have a little experience doing some soldering but I wasn't that great at it so I'm shying away from this sort of DIYing. Sounds like a good idea, though...


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## BlueB (Feb 12, 2012)

I'm tempted to do some do it yourself LEDs for some extra 660nm after I see if they work or not. If these Kessil's show worthiness, then I may look into getting some 3w or 5w ledengine LEDs and do some custom work. I was thinking of making my own fixture that holds T5's and incorporate some red LEDs into it. (like a board with some reflective aluminum or something like that). I think it's worth doing the math, like figuring out the amount of 660nm wattage that you need to balance out the blue. I might even try flowering with a Horitlux Blue + a well balanced 660nm LED added to it. I figure with a 400w Hortilux Blue, it would probably take about 300w of 660nm red to balance it out to a 6:1 ratio. (or somewhere around there)
We are talkin big bucks for 300w of Red LEDs, but I imagine the outcome would be worth every penny.


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## Whatstrain (Feb 12, 2012)

Sorry for the stupid question but i just got quoted $105 for 16 3' T5's. Does that sound right? and also would i be able to use coral lighting with them? Just seems like maybe they mishit a number or something as i would imagine the bulbs alone for a normal t5 is more than $105.


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## C.Indica (Feb 12, 2012)

Whatstrain said:


> Sorry for the stupid question but i just got quoted $105 for 16 3' T5's. Does that sound right? and also would i be able to use coral lighting with them? Just seems like maybe they mishit a number or something as i would imagine the bulbs alone for a normal t5 is more than $105.



That's a steal.
If you can get 16x(Sixteen) 36" T5 units, for $105,
then do it.


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## BlueB (Feb 12, 2012)

The 5w, 660nm LED's are about $4 a piece. I figure I would need at least 250w of 660nm, so that would put it at $200 just for the LEDs. That's a lot to spend to try an experiment!
I am going to stick with the Kessil for now to see if it even does anything! If it seems to make some improvements to the buds, then I will look into experimenting more. I really think that LEDs are the way to go for getting the 660nm in there. Unless, of course, if we all pooled together to get WavePoint to make us a 660nm only bulb? If there minimum order is 1000, if we all pitched in $100 or something then maybe? Is it even possible to make a 660nm only bulb with floro technology? Like a Red Sun, but 660nm instead of the 630nm. I kinda got the impression that 630nm is just not the right spectrum the plants are looking for. Supposedly that's why the UFO LEDs stopped making the 630nm ones and went to the 660nm ones. It sounds like the 660nm is pretty damn important. I know plants utilize 630nm, I know plants use pretty much every wavelength actually, just in varying amounts. But 660nm sounds like a key wavelength for getting big results. Same reason HPS grows big buds, they push the red side of the spectrum with full intensity. If only it was the RIGHT wavelength! I wish I knew more about how to build LED lights, I would totally do it. I would never waste the money on blue LEDs though, no friggin way! The Giesemann Actinic Plus and Midday is my source of blue!


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## C.Indica (Feb 12, 2012)

BlueB said:


> The 5w, 660nm LED's are about $4 a piece. I figure I would need at least 250w of 660nm, so that would put it at $200 just for the LEDs. That's a lot to spend to try an experiment!
> I am going to stick with the Kessil for now to see if it even does anything! If it seems to make some improvements to the buds, then I will look into experimenting more. I really think that LEDs are the way to go for getting the 660nm in there. Unless, of course, if we all pooled together to get WavePoint to make us a 660nm only bulb? If there minimum order is 1000, if we all pitched in $100 or something then maybe? Is it even possible to make a 660nm only bulb with floro technology? Like a Red Sun, but 660nm instead of the 630nm. I kinda got the impression that 630nm is just not the right spectrum the plants are looking for. Supposedly that's why the UFO LEDs stopped making the 630nm ones and went to the 660nm ones. It sounds like the 660nm is pretty damn important. I know plants utilize 630nm, I know plants use pretty much every wavelength actually, just in varying amounts. But 660nm sounds like a key wavelength for getting big results. Same reason HPS grows big buds, they push the red side of the spectrum with full intensity. If only it was the RIGHT wavelength! I wish I knew more about how to build LED lights, I would totally do it. I would never waste the money on blue LEDs though, no friggin way! The Giesemann Actinic Plus and Midday is my source of blue!


Hateto burst your bubble, but HPS bulbs are almost all Yellow, useless light.
With very little red, and a little blue.
The only spike in the red is yellow.


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## BlueB (Feb 12, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> Hateto burst your bubble, but HPS bulbs are almost all Yellow, useless light.
> With very little red, and a little blue.
> The only spike in the red is yellow.


Re-read my post, I said HPS pushes the red side, if only it was the RIGHT wavelength (660nm) etc. Yellow is on the red side. That's why plants can utilize.


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## falcon223 (Feb 12, 2012)

OK side by side 600 watt HPS. and 4 foot 8 bulb t5. The T5 plants at week 3 to 4 of flower look fuller and fatter. 
The HPS look bigger and the flowers are spread out more. The HPS is going to make a lot more bud in the long run, but it should.
I see the difference in the two, but when it is all dune I will see witch is best smoke.

It is and old movie ,, The day of the Treffids. Look it up on amazon ?


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## hyroot (Feb 12, 2012)

Blueb , how are you going to mount or hang the kessils or ufo's? I thought about doing that. I don't see how there would be room for it other than side lighting. I have the t5 a few inches away from the canopy. So mo light will fit and of it did fit, it would block the light from the t5.


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## BlueB (Feb 12, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Blueb , how are you going to mount or hang the kessils or ufo's? I thought about doing that. I don't see how there would be room for it other than side lighting. I have the t5 a few inches away from the canopy. So mo light will fit and of it did fit, it would block the light from the t5.


The Kessil fixture is like 2" by 3". It's the size of a flashlight as far as I know. My T5 fixture is about 10" off my canopy as you recommended.  I'm going to shine the Kessils from the side on a downward angle(maybe with a coat-hanger or some kind of wire with loops, or velcro). I'm only growing one plant so it should be fine. I'm not, and never will go for a UFO because I have read many reviews that say they have bad power driver units and once they go bad, you can't replace or something? I did some research on making my own 660nm 150w light with 5w single chip LEDs. The LEDs are about $8.50 a piece, and the driver is over $100. I think I will stick to the Kessils for now. LOL at least they have a warranty if the driver goes out.

Going back to the HPS subject from earlier,
Although HPS lights emit a yellow dominant wavelength, it is still classified as red light.
I did a RGB analysis of my HPS+HortiBlue room. Here are the results,

*It seems like the HPS + Hortilux Blue combo would be a good Veg combo, but not a good Flower combo because the red/blue ratio is wrong.** I think I will try the HPS + UVb idea next time instead of adding the Hortilux Blue.
*

*Next I did a RGB analysis of the HPS light alone. The results are interesting. Pretty much sums up why HPS lights work for flowering. They work because the red to blue ratio is correct, not because they have the wrong wavelength. It shows how the red/blue ratio is almost more important than wavelength. 
Proper wavelength + proper ratio = perfect buds
Here are the RGB results for the HPS light by itself without the Hortilux Blue,
*View attachment 2055518*
As you can see the addition of the Hortilux blue adds quite a bit more blue.*


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## C.Indica (Feb 12, 2012)

Ahh missed the "If only it was right spectrum!" bit.
Nice to read.
Thanks


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## hyroot (Feb 12, 2012)

BlueB said:


> The Kessil fixture is like 2" by 3". It's the size of a flashlight as far as I know. My T5 fixture is about 10" off my canopy as you recommended.  I'm going to shine the Kessils from the side on a downward angle(maybe with a coat-hanger or some kind of wire with loops, or velcro). I'm only growing one plant so it should be fine. I'm not, and never will go for a UFO because I have read many reviews that say they have bad power driver units and once they go bad, you can't replace or something? I did some research on making my own 660nm 150w light with 5w single chip LEDs. The LEDs are about $8.50 a piece, and the driver is over $100. I think I will stick to the Kessils for now. LOL at least they have a warranty if the driver goes out.
> 
> Going back to the HPS subject from earlier,
> Although HPS lights emit a yellow dominant wavelength, it is still classified as red light.
> ...



it turns out i may be wrong about the 10 inches. just from what i read prior, it need to be that far away for a proper spectrum blend and the spectrum blend would be more important than intensity. This round of which I'm half way through, I dropped the light to 3 inches away and Im seeing much better results in bud size and they are still just as frosty. Each plant only gets light from a few bulbs , so I don't get the same spectrum blend though. I will see at the end of this batch which way is better.

the last 2 weeks of my last batch I did drop the t5 to 2 to 3 inches away. They swelled up a lot more. The quality may be better with proper blend but we will see.....

both times i have had 8 under the t5


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## milfblaster (Feb 12, 2012)

BlueB, do you have an RGB analysis for the CMH bulb?


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## BlueB (Feb 12, 2012)

I was reading about spectrum blending on that ledgrow.eu website. He said that he's taken the reflectors out for the same reason you just mentioned. He said the reflectors prevent spectrum blending at close distances so he took them out so they could blend more and get his plants closer to the lights. Makes sense. He still puts reflective mylar behind his lights. Doesn't seem like you would even need parabolic reflectors if you are keeping the lights at a close distance.


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## BlueB (Feb 12, 2012)

milfblaster said:


> BlueB, do you have an RGB analysis for the CMH bulb?


No, but I can do one. I'm sure it's equal Red Green Blue though. The CMH emits a pure white light.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 12, 2012)

without reflectors you're losing at least 180degrees (50%+) of emitted light. With two bulbs per reflector or close to each other for blending, and they're shining on each other then you're losing light due to re-strike. I'd much prefer putting as much of the usable light downward towards my foliage rather than onto another bulb or up and away from where its needed. I make sure to have a equally blended spectrum using my _bulb placement_. Dont put two red heavy bulbs next to each other, nor two blues. Spread it evenly across the whole panel, so one side gets the same general glow as the other side.... pics soon to come, but Im going pink1/red/blue/pink2/pink1/red/blue/pink2 ... with RedSun for red, CoralWave for blue and pink1=Florasun pink2=AquaMedic Plant Grow. 
I get his point, at very close distances...under 6"-ish a single bulb can dominate the overhead light of a very small plant... just rotate your pots abit to give a slight variation of the general glow theyre getting, but this would really only benefit small seedlings. once they have a few nodes and fan leaves, a fan blowing on them will ruffle the leaves enough to get light from other bulbs. A plant with any real size would be "seeing" light from all directions the bulbs are shining on em, they'll be fine as long as you dont have similar bulbs bunched together giving one side more blue or red than the other.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 12, 2012)

hyroot said:


> it turns out i may be wrong about the 10 inches. just from what i read prior, it need to be that far away for a proper spectrum blend and the spectrum blend would be more important than intensity. This round of which I'm half way through, I dropped the light to 3 inches away and Im seeing much better results in bud size and they are still just as frosty. Each plant only gets light from a few bulbs , so I don't get the same spectrum blend though. I will see at the end of this batch which way is better.
> 
> the last 2 weeks of my last batch I did drop the t5 to 2 to 3 inches away. They swelled up a lot more. The quality may be better with proper blend but we will see.....
> 
> both times i have had 8 under the t5


The closer the better, it may be harder to stuff all 8 under one panel at only a few inches, understood, you may need to raise it to get light to all the tops. But the closer the better, blend your bulbs evenly, if your bulbs are so close that your plant can only effectively "see" 3 bulbs, if they are a Red blue and Full Spectrum then you're golden, and should apply pretty evenly for both veg and flower (obviously the reds should be more dominate in flower) but the closer the better, they love it!


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## BlueB (Feb 12, 2012)

Wow, I never realized that you would lose that much light from not having a parabolic reflector.


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## PetFlora (Feb 13, 2012)

My tent is DIY (wood frame ~ 6" wider than the fixture) my fixture BB 8 bulb. I alternate bulbs in a complimentary fashion as UC suggests. Even though there is not much light extending beyond the 2 X 4 footprint, I do wrap my tent with windshield reflector, and was just thinking to clip the reflector material directly to the BB fixture. Hmmmm

*FYI *Jeff at UV Lighting says he will replace my 3 Red Sun/Lifes (but when?). The 2 I am using are now light orange (they started out blood orange); a considerable amount of phosphors have leaked out. Not sure how beneficial having them in there is, but thinking it's still better than the Quantum Flower bulbs. Thoughts? 

The plant I have been baby sitting for a month today, is almost done. Will post pics in a few days just before putting her into the dark


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## mipainpatient (Feb 13, 2012)

C.Indica said:


> Hateto burst your bubble, but HPS bulbs are almost all Yellow, useless light.
> With very little red, and a little blue.
> The only spike in the red is yellow.


With all due respect, this is the kind of statement that makes PAR growers look bad. Yellow is not useless light, green is not useless light. Red wavelengths are severely over-rated by ganj growers because they mistakenly think the PAR graph applies to plants exclusively. (it is a combined pigment absorbance graph, meaning that there are pigments on the graph which plants do not possess) HPS's do obviously emit plant usable light, and plenty of it (intensity) no the spectrum is not "good quality light" but to claim that yellow light is unusable to plants is to jeopardize the integrity of your other pretty spot on statements.
Yellow/Green light are obviously highly reflected by leaves (infrared in excess of 740nm as well) this means that they are the most reflected light types in the canopy while still showing 23%+ use in photosynthetic processes. This means that the other 77% that is not diffused or scattered or absorbed by some other pigment, just rockets from one chloroplast to another, deep into the canopy and even along and inside a leaf itself, according to "Green Light Drives CO2 Fixation Deep within Leaves" 
(Jindong Sun, John N. Nishio2 and Thomas C. Vogelmann). Ganj growers often refer to this effect as "penetration" if a light possesses enough yellow/green/IR to bounce through all/most parts of the canopy.
Where you fall short with HPSs is with the phenotypic expression of terpenes, a number of cannabinoids, and the severe climate factors you introduce. I think it should be noted, however, that plant's (higher plants at least) seem to experience a higher oversaturation point with yellow/green light meaning you can force-feed them more of this light than other types. So while you are supplementing your hortilux with RED LEDs, blueb, be careful not to overdo the red. Maybe make 2-3 units to spread, since you are opting for such high watt diodes. (yea you can run them at lower wattage but why would you?) Plenty of stories on the net of people bleaching leaves with overly intense red units.
Hope i balanced criticism with helpful info.
C.indica--
Not trying to throw you a dig, I'd expect the same if someone found me trippin up,
MPP


edit:
Lack of penetration is why us t5er's Scrog/Sog/LST/crop/top etc, unless we roll like phaeton(sp?) and just surround the bitches


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## mipainpatient (Feb 13, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> My tent is DIY (wood frame ~ 6" wider than the fixture) my fixture BB 8 bulb. I alternate bulbs in a complimentary fashion as UC suggests. Even though there is not much light extending beyond the 2 X 4 footprint, I do wrap my tent with windshield reflector, and was just thinking to clip the reflector material directly to the BB fixture. Hmmmm
> 
> *FYI *Jeff at UV Lighting says he will replace my 3 Red Sun/Lifes (but when?). The 2 I am using are now light orange (they started out blood orange); a considerable amount of phosphors have leaked out. Not sure how beneficial having them in there is, but thinking it's still better than the Quantum Flower bulbs. Thoughts?
> 
> The plant I have been baby sitting for a month today, is almost done. Will post pics in a few days just before putting her into the dark


It is my understanding that it is the gas (from whence the plasma is generated) that leaks out, not the phosphor coating, anyone want to weigh in on this?

which gave me this idea:
anyone thought of writing one of the manufacturer's of the bulbs and asking what kind of product might be appropriate to do a touch up glue-spackel job on the end caps, you might be able to prevent the EXTREMELY quick decline in output you guys are describing with a couple tiny dabs of glue around the connection point, even just where you can access.

Hope that pans out,
mpp


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## mipainpatient (Feb 13, 2012)

BlueB said:


> No, but I can do one. I'm sure it's equal Red Green Blue though. The CMH emits a pure white light.


a nearby thread starts out with the OP posting some:
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/502572-official-cmh-thread-post-your.html

Definitely considering this as one of my tents is just sitting dark.....


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## AltarNation (Feb 13, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> a nearby thread starts out with the OP posting some:
> https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/502572-official-cmh-thread-post-your.html
> 
> Definitely considering this as one of my tents is just sitting dark.....



I'm also considering adding a low wattage CMH to my T5's for supplementation. Still not going to shift my red balance enough, though.


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## AltarNation (Feb 13, 2012)

I was just browsing and found a chart for a 2700k cfl that showed it being extremely red heavy... doesn't seem right?

http://www.jungleseeds.co.uk/HardwareOrders/contents/en-uk/d34.html

What is up with that? If that's accurate couldn't I just add a few 2700k CFLs to change the blue/red ratio?


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

I doubt those are accurate. Try looking up that info somewhere else for the same bulb. CFL'S usually emit light high in the yellow wavelengths the same as HPS do. I don't think they know what they're talking about. Misleading info there.
What the heck is this?

This doesn't look like the output from an induction lamp, so what the heck is the spd graph from please?
http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/173635-new-induction-grow-light-9.html

?????????????????????????????

????????????????????????????????????????????
WHERE DO YOU GET THIS LIGHT? I WANT 4 OF THEM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Here is the correct SPD graph for a 2700K CFL,


I'm having a hard time believing that those middle SPD charts are even real. Everyone here should take a look at this thread over at boards.cannabis.com and figure this crap out. It sounds like someone got sold some bogus type of induction light, but who knows. I don't get it. This person ordered one of these amazing lights and said the CFL did better. Makes me think that the graph is total bogus, false.


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

FOUND IT,
http://www.ebay.com/itm/500w-induction-grow-light-full-spectrum-Tunnel-flood-replace-1000w-HPS-/220884521877?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item336dbe5395

Still hard to believe. Does anyone know anything about these?
Looking at the ebay ad, I can tell straight up that this graph they have is an outright lie. They have a photo of the light turned on where half of the light is yellow and half is white. There is NO WAY that this light produces this amount of 660nm wavelength. As UC has stated before, there is no law against false advertising when it comes to lighting. WHAT THE FUCK? How are these people getting away with selling these lights by advertising a falsely generated spectral analysis? There is no way that these graphs are real. Here is this company's website,

http://www.lightpros.us.com/products-page/grow-lights/lp-400-400w-lamp/


http://www.ebay.com/itm/150W-Bi-Spectrum-INDUCTION-GROW-LIGHT-300W-LED-450W-HPS-/270884637317?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f11fb8a85


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

http://www.lightpros.us.com/products-page/grow-lights/lp-400-400w-lamp/

Looking at the advertisement on ebay from this company, those amazing spectral analysis charts that I posted earlier ARE FROM LED grow lights not these induction lights!

Why are they showing SPD graphs from HPS, MH and LEDs but NOT THEIR OWN PRODUCT? This is for sure confusing. 

So, where is the SPD graph for the light that they sell??????????????? This induction light or whatever they are.


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## aoyanagi (Feb 13, 2012)

From what I've read induction is basically long-life fluorescent. The bulb is sealed and the mercury gas excited via induction rather than direct current. The phosphors are just as tune-able as for t5s, the bulbs last for freakin' ever, and they are more efficient generally than t5. Higher upfront cost, and I hadn't heard of that particular company. Inda-grow I think were the ones I was looking at.

Edit: Inda-Gro

I just called them, to get a proPAR 420 unit shipped to my door in 2 days would be $845 total with shipping. And they're all made-in-america with a 10-year warranty. The dude I talked to actually said "he's the owner and I'm the grower and we're mostly in this to help people, especially patients." I like 'em.


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## mipainpatient (Feb 13, 2012)

regarding inda-gro:
I have sent a number of emails with the owner and am currently saving for one of the proPARs, there are a number of indagro vs HPS/MH grows on youtube, check em out
mpp

edit:
what the propar lacks in blue (for my designs) i will do as sidelighting w/ t5s (coral wave, blue wave, reef wave all bought on clearance booyah)


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## mipainpatient (Feb 13, 2012)

BlueB said:


> http://www.lightpros.us.com/products-page/grow-lights/lp-400-400w-lamp/
> 
> Looking at the advertisement on ebay from this company, those amazing spectral analysis charts that I posted earlier ARE FROM LED grow lights not these induction lights!
> 
> ...


That would explain the blue part in the mostly RED spike output....Red LEDs are phosphored/colored lensed/colored plastic over Blue LEDs but the blue still gets through to a significant degree.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 13, 2012)

I got my FloraSuns and AquaticLife Roseate's. I really like the FloraSuns, Im not impressed with the Roseates. The Roseates dont publish their SPD's online, but proclaim 650nm all over, and the spd on their packaging shows a ripple in the 600-700 range but otherwise is relatively useless. To my eyes, compared to other tubes they appear a plain flat white, they may have some 650nm in them but its likely VERY little/very light. The FloraSuns look just like the AquaMedic PlantGrow's but for $8 a tube you cant go wrong. *** I will say that the way bulbs appear to the eye can vary greatly depending on what bulbs are around them, which I was reminded of when I took no-flash pics.




Flowering main panel ^^^...(to be supplemented with a 4bulb on either side)... top to bottom= Roseate/CoralWave/RedSun/FloraSun/Roseate/CoralWave/RedSun/FloraSun. Its amazing how different they look on camera, in person the Roseate's appear FLAT WHITE but they appear purplish here. So I wont discount them totally, but wont use them as a primary go-to bulb. Im gonna swap in the PlantGrows and use the Roseate's on the side panels, top most slot (Roseate, RedSun, Actinic, Bloom) 


Veg main panel ^^^... (to be supplemented with a single blue Actinic on the side)... top to bottom= FloraSun, BlueWave, ReefWave, FloraSun. Again they look very different on camera next to other bulbs. compare the bottom bulb from the flowering panel to the top bulb here, same bulb, both FloraSun. they appear more blueish here, they are infact quite pink (other pics show it)


suprisingly the top panel in the pic below vvv is a ReefWave/BlueWave just like the pic above ^^ is a BlueWave/ReefWave, but it has 6500k's on the outer two slots vs my new config using FloraSuns. Im sure it has to do with the camera's reception of different colors in the presence of other colors, I just think its funny how much more blue the ReefWave looks next to the FloraSun when it looks so Violet next to the 6500k's, and again how blue the FloraSuns look next to the other blue bulbs, when they definately appear pink to me.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 13, 2012)

This post messed up and wouldnt let me delete it... pls ignore this mess


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 13, 2012)

A few more pics just to show the different hues given inside each box.

my babies...




Notice the nice blue glow with a hint of pink?

This pic above ^^^ shows the pink in the FloraSuns abit more. I like em 






The flowering box...12/12 from seedling -about 12days now

Notice the overal rosy glow, very red but still showing blue 







^^^Roseate,CoralWave,RedSun,FloraSun,Roseate,Coral Wave,Redsun,FloraSun


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## AltarNation (Feb 13, 2012)

Hahaha. Okay. Thanks. I couldn't find a CFL 2700k chart when I searched. The only one I found was that pretty bogus looking one I linked.


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

Don't bother checking out that CMH thread. There isn't one bit of information on CMH, it's just a bunch of people ranting back and forth calling each other names. Pointless really. I feel bad for the person who started the thread, they should really consider starting a new one now that one has been ruined not 6 pages into it.


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> A few more pics just to show the different hues given inside each box.
> 
> my babies...
> View attachment 2057493
> ...


You got it goin on bro! The overall color appearance of both your veg and flower mixtures look spot on! Nice work! I might have to copy what you are doing now! Real nice!


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## mipainpatient (Feb 13, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Don't bother checking out that CMH thread. There isn't one bit of information on CMH, it's just a bunch of people ranting back and forth calling each other names. Pointless really. I feel bad for the person who started the thread, they should really consider starting a new one now that one has been ruined not 6 pages into it.


heh i was merely pointing out the cmh spd, sux on the bunk thread


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> heh i was merely pointing out the cmh spd, sux on the bunk thread


Oh ya, sorry, I wasn't knockin you by any means. I tried to make a couple educated and informative posts there and still like 3 pages later no one has responded yet. They are all into arguing over there.


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

I've started to incorporate the UVb bulbs into both rooms now. On for 4 hours during the mid part of the light cycle. Got three new strains to work with. All cuttings from a dispensary from the L.A. I believe. I got them from a local friend here in CO. One cut is a blueberry #1, which I can't wait to try growin under the T5 setup. The other 2 cuts are a sour deez cross and some other pure Sativa. They came kinda beat up, so I hope they recover. The blueberry is only 2 inches tall, in the veg cycle, and putting out crazy amounts of trichomes on the leaves. Sure hope they start to grow more.


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## BlueB (Feb 13, 2012)

milfblaster said:


> BlueB, do you have an RGB analysis for the CMH bulb?


Here's that RGB analysis of the CMH bulb that you asked for the other day,


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## Phaeton (Feb 13, 2012)

I built a square out of Hydrofarm T5's with two 400 watt CMH's up top. I must say I liked the way the lower buds filled out. No longer were they popcorn.

They were sucking me into the arguing in the CMH thread, so I quit visiting, there is growing to be done.


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## C.Indica (Feb 14, 2012)

Phaeton said:


> View attachment 2058212
> 
> I built a square out of Hydrofarm T5's with two 400 watt CMH's up top. I must say I liked the way the lower buds filled out. No longer were they popcorn.
> 
> They were sucking me into the arguing in the CMH thread, so I quit visiting, there is growing to be done.


That's BrickTop for you.
Uncle Ben'll get you too.


I'm going HPS.. Digilux w/ Blue.
Just for a simple onebulb bloom box.
I'll still use T5's for veg / mothers.

I didn't want to CMH + Supplement,
and thisis One bulb to replace.


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## hyroot (Feb 14, 2012)

http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight-%2d-15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html

Cheaper than kessil and does not have the the sam lense that supposedly mkes kessils weak.


----------



## PetFlora (Feb 14, 2012)

St Valentines Day Massacre: Time to bring her down. She filled out quite a bit in 30 days. When I got her the soil was so soaked I did not water for a week. Nuggz are small but tight. She's only 16" tall. I was fighting fucking fungus gnats the whole time. I have an electric fly swatter/zapper and would sweep/kill 4xs a day. I resorted to spraying her down with H2O2 each time I did a sweep: she seemed to like it. 

T5s can bud just fine- if you have the right mix of bulbs

View attachment 2058911View attachment 2058912View attachment 2058914


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## hyroot (Feb 14, 2012)

Happy singles awareness day


----------



## PetFlora (Feb 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Don't bother checking out that CMH thread. There isn't one bit of information on CMH, it's just a bunch of people ranting back and forth calling each other names. Pointless really. I feel bad for the person who started the thread, they should really consider starting a new one now that one has been ruined not 6 pages into it.


I do journals instead of threads, which allows me to control/delete the idiots


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## PetFlora (Feb 14, 2012)

I was at a cross roads when i came across Profs thread. Am I glad I did not go down the LED road further then I already had (UFO 90). I keep in touch with the various DIY LED threads. It seems unless you can DIY and know what the hell you are doing, you're probably gonna overpay and/or get screwed. Viva La HO T5s + aquarium bulbs


----------



## mipainpatient (Feb 14, 2012)

I have a pair of the 15w advanced LEDs, their main flaw (IMHO unless you are just looking for supplemental) is the 120 degree angle.
If you want to conserve intensity in LEDs you need less than 90 degrees, 60 would be ideal for my application. I use the 15w'ers on seedlings and in the veg tent, which is small enough that you can see blue/magenta light bouncing from every little 2mmx2mm bump in the pounded mylar, so at the very least that 120 degree angle is getting it out there into the canopy, I will give it that.
But the most effective lights (LED) that I have seen maintain a smaller exit angle.
Btw if you haven't read me say it yet, I use t5 + LED + CFL
MPP

edit:
anyone seen this video? found it before I found this thread and ended up not buying from these guys but damn it is a nice bud porn shoot:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kxPvN9ke2Xg


----------



## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

Hey MPP, what are you using for LEDs? DIY job or are you referring to something like this: http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight-%2d-15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html ?

Either way, I'm curious how close you can get them to your plants at that wattage... thinking about getting some LEDs to supplement but I'm concerned with how to maintain a close-to-canopy arrangemnet with the T5's while adding the LEDs.


----------



## mipainpatient (Feb 14, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hey MPP, what are you using for LEDs? DIY job or are you referring to something like this: http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight---15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html ?
> 
> Either way, I'm curious how close you can get them to your plants at that wattage... thinking about getting some LEDs to supplement but I'm concerned with how to maintain a close-to-canopy arrangemnet with the T5's while adding the LEDs.


I was gifted a pair of the lights your link goes to by a buddy who SWEARS by the larger advanced units and is a caregiver for 6 people. I was referring to that light for seedlings but the only heat from it is in the heat sink (the big metal folds) and it should be fine at 4"+ would think, less would cut down the light spread effect and possibly overdo the intensity, hurting the plant. Not to mention that being closer than 4" seems to me that it would make the 120 degree lensing useless and silly. You could totally use these units to test individual light spectrums on a particular if you just get real close and light that one stalk up. I also have a 90W (draws damn close to 90 in my setup) UFO from BloomBoss I found on amazon which has some really nice flavorful grows under its belt. It has PAR readings at various distances for different size footprints on a sheet that came with it, but I just do about 6-8" from the canopy, and pull the light up if the canopy rises.
I have my flower set up like this for now (2'x4'x5' pounded mylar darkroom tent):
-----2xCFL-------2xCFL
[4 2' t5] (UFO) [4 2' t5]
___2xCFL_____2xCFL

with coral waves/generic 6500Ks alternating in the t5s, 26W 6500K/2700K CFLs alternating at each double spot, and trying to figure out where to fit some UVb bulbs, have CFL and looking at t5. The 2xCFLs are sidelighting, hanging about 6-8" below the t5 units. The LED sits a couple inches above the t5s, so it will leak heavily onto each t5 footprint, while also making its own down the middle. 
Veg is really just a big 125W CFL (6500K I think, though it looks more like 5500K to me) in a tiny 2x3x3 tent, small to keep the reflective surface close, leaking photons is giving away money. The 15w leds are hanging in here over some seedlings, but at more like 12", making the seedlings look more green than blue. (i have a 15w blue and a 15w magenta or full spec)
hope that helps,
mpp


----------



## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> without reflectors you're losing at least 180degrees (50%+) of emitted light. With two bulbs per reflector or close to each other for blending, and they're shining on each other then you're losing light due to re-strike. I'd much prefer putting as much of the usable light downward towards my foliage rather than onto another bulb or up and away from where its needed. I make sure to have a equally blended spectrum using my _bulb placement_. Dont put two red heavy bulbs next to each other, nor two blues. Spread it evenly across the whole panel, so one side gets the same general glow as the other side.... pics soon to come, but Im going pink1/red/blue/pink2/pink1/red/blue/pink2 ... with RedSun for red, CoralWave for blue and pink1=Florasun pink2=AquaMedic Plant Grow.
> I get his point, at very close distances...under 6"-ish a single bulb can dominate the overhead light of a very small plant... just rotate your pots abit to give a slight variation of the general glow theyre getting, but this would really only benefit small seedlings. once they have a few nodes and fan leaves, a fan blowing on them will ruffle the leaves enough to get light from other bulbs. A plant with any real size would be "seeing" light from all directions the bulbs are shining on em, they'll be fine as long as you dont have similar bulbs bunched together giving one side more blue or red than the other.


That was probably the reason the guy at ledgrow.eu used the mylar around his grow area to give it a "tube effect." Although some light may get wasted without the individual reflectors directing the light in a beam like fashion towards the plant, its true that the light would blend quite a bit more without the reflectors in the way, especially right up by the bulbs and not X inches away. I'm sure some light would be wasted since mylar isn't as perfectly reflective as a highly polished reflector, but I think his main concern was light blending. Since his grow area was more of a tube shape with mylar then most of that "wasted light" would be reflected back onto the plants eventually. It looked like the space between the lights and the canopy wasn't more than 24" or so. In an open area type grow, and without side-lighting, reflectors make the most sense. Keep in mind that these grows he's doing are supposedly only using 60w max. It looks like a 2' x 3' area or around there. 2w LEDs
This webpage starts at the bottom and reads up to the top,

http://www.ledgrow.eu/test7.html

He uses a few white lights to "complete the spectrum." Also uses IR light and talks about the importance of only using it during flower, and the benefits of side-lighting while using the same amount of electricity 62w. Anyway, he took his reflectors out for some reason when he started to use lights on the side. I'm pretty sure he did it because he wanted to move the lights closer to his plants since he had turned the wattage down, and keep the wavelengths blended enough.

If one was to use like 24 of the 4' single bulb fixtures(without reflector), and mount them in a Mylar tube like area, I think the curved Mylar would reflect the light enough.


----------



## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> St Valentines Day Massacre: Time to bring her down. She filled out quite a bit in 30 days. When I got her the soil was so soaked I did not water for a week. Nuggz are small but tight. She's only 16" tall. I was fighting fucking fungus gnats the whole time. I have an electric fly swatter/zapper and would sweep/kill 4xs a day. I resorted to spraying her down with H2O2 each time I did a sweep: she seemed to like it.
> 
> T5s can bud just fine- if you have the right mix of bulbs
> 
> View attachment 2058911View attachment 2058912View attachment 2058914


Nice job Flora, lookin' good!


----------



## Undercover Cop (Feb 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> That was probably the reason the guy at ledgrow.eu used the mylar around his grow area to give it a "tube effect." Although some light may get wasted without the individual reflectors directing the light in a beam like fashion towards the plant, its true that the light would blend quite a bit more without the reflectors in the way, especially right up by the bulbs and not X inches away. I'm sure some light would be wasted since mylar isn't as perfectly reflective as a highly polished reflector, but I think his main concern was light blending. Since his grow area was more of a tube shape with mylar then most of that "wasted light" would be reflected back onto the plants eventually. It looked like the space between the lights and the canopy wasn't more than 24" or so. In an open area type grow, and without side-lighting, reflectors make the most sense. Keep in mind that these grows he's doing are supposedly only using 60w max. It looks like a 2' x 3' area or around there. 2w LEDs
> This webpage starts at the bottom and reads up to the top,
> 
> http://www.ledgrow.eu/test7.html
> ...



are we talking led's or T5's? without a reflector, whatever light is shining upward, even if it hits mylar, is likely being bounced right back down onto the tube it was emitted from, Im not even thinking about whatever kinda "tube" this guy has, just saying that reflectors are precicely angled to get the light that shines up, to be reflected back downward AROUND the tube to avoid re-strike. His theory makes sense, I just think its less than optimal and he's losing some of the power available from the t5's by removing the reflectors and raising the light to increase spectrum blending. I dont think spectrum blend would such an important issue if the tubes were blended properly.

Ive seen lots of pics here (not gonna call anyone out) that show an 8 bulb, with 2 blues on one side and 2 reds on the other, or right next to each other. Alternate tubes and thats all you need!


----------



## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

hyroot said:


> http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight---15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html
> 
> Cheaper than kessil and does not have the the sam lense that supposedly mkes kessils weak.


It looks like are using the same dense matrix type of led that Kessil is, only 15w instead of 36w. What's this lense that you speak of? I definitely might have to pick up a couple of these advanced led far-red spot lights to supplement with the 660nm Kessil if they even pan out. Thanks for the info!


----------



## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> I was gifted a pair of the lights your link goes to by a buddy who SWEARS by the larger advanced units and is a caregiver for 6 people. I was referring to that light for seedlings but the only heat from it is in the heat sink (the big metal folds) and it should be fine at 4"+ would think, less would cut down the light spread effect and possibly overdo the intensity, hurting the plant. Not to mention that being closer than 4" seems to me that it would make the 120 degree lensing useless and silly. You could totally use these units to test individual light spectrums on a particular if you just get real close and light that one stalk up. I also have a 90W (draws damn close to 90 in my setup) UFO from BloomBoss I found on amazon which has some really nice flavorful grows under its belt. It has PAR readings at various distances for different size footprints on a sheet that came with it, but I just do about 6-8" from the canopy, and pull the light up if the canopy rises.
> I have my flower set up like this for now (2'x4'x5' pounded mylar darkroom tent):
> -----2xCFL-------2xCFL
> [4 2' t5] (UFO) [4 2' t5]
> ...


Cool man, thanks for elaborating on your setup, and diagram. That was good to read. I like the way you've got your lights set up.

The problem for me is, I bought the 48" fixture so I'm always trying to figure out how to somehow supplement around the big obstruction which is the light itself, heh.

I wish I had worked at a smaller scale in retrospect, as I often found myself wishing I could separate the two 4-bulb sections of my lamp so they could be at different angles. Ohhhh well. Gotta do what I gotta do with what I've got, for now at least.

It seems like the 15w Advanced LEDs could work if i put one at each end pointing inward maybe. Amazing how pricey LED units still are, though. Still, if they work well, one in each corner pointing inward even would be good...

... Damn this is an expensive hobby. Looking into resources to see if I can swing two of those now.. haha.


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## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> are we talking led's or T5's? without a reflector, whatever light is shining upward, even if it hits mylar, is likely being bounced right back down onto the tube it was emitted from, Im not even thinking about whatever kinda "tube" this guy has, just saying that reflectors are precicely angled to get the light that shines up, to be reflected back downward AROUND the tube to avoid re-strike. His theory makes sense, I just think its less than optimal and he's losing some of the power available from the t5's by removing the reflectors and raising the light to increase spectrum blending. I dont think spectrum blend would such an important issue if the tubes were blended properly.
> 
> Ive seen lots of pics here (not gonna call anyone out) that show an 8 bulb, with 2 blues on one side and 2 reds on the other, or right next to each other. Alternate tubes and thats all you need!


Yeah, I'm talkin LEDs. They have a viewing angle of around 60 degrees, so that's why this guy took the reflectors off, probably not needed. T5's have a viewing angle of 360 degrees, so the reflector for them makes sense. You could always put the LEDs even with the tips of the T5 reflectors and that way none of the LED light would be cut off by the T5's reflector getting in the way.


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## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

Alright I grabbed two of the all red models, which I'll be adding to my 10-bulb T5 setup this round. Thinking I can raise just the front two corners of my T5 unit by a few inches to give the LED's some space... that way the back fluoros are still as close as possible. I hope I can see noticeable growth differences in the areas that are getting more light from the LEDs etc... then maybe I can move them around a bit to compensate for positioning. Or move the plants.

What will LEDs do if they're too close? Straight burn, or do the leaves bleach out or what?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 14, 2012)

ok then it makes sense, they're focused beam where t5's are omni-directional. A reflector for LED's would could be to either diffuse the light or prob to focus the spread to a tighter beam. taking the reflector off to allow the beam to widen prob would blend the spectrum better. Ah its all so clear now lol.


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## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Cool man, thanks for elaborating on your setup, and diagram. That was good to read. I like the way you've got your lights set up.
> 
> The problem for me is, I bought the 48" fixture so I'm always trying to figure out how to somehow supplement around the big obstruction which is the light itself, heh.
> 
> ...


I did the same thing. Bought a couple of 4' fixtures and now it makes it kinda hard to blend in other light sources. I'm seriously considering buying some more single bulb T5 fixtures so that I can blend in some other light sources. I really like T5 tubes for the fact that they put out such a balanced source of blue light. I'm starting to feel more and more that in order to get in enough red, 660nm LEDs are going to have to be supplemented in somewhere.


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## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

Since it's valentine's day, let me just say I fucking love this T5 growing group! Buncha brave pioneers are we.  Rock on fellow growers.


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## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I did the same thing. Bought a couple of 4' fixtures and now it makes it kinda hard to blend in other light sources. I'm seriously considering buying some more single bulb T5 fixtures so that I can blend in some other light sources. I really like T5 tubes for the fact that they put out such a balanced source of blue light. I'm starting to feel more and more that in order to get in enough red, 660nm LEDs are going to have to be supplemented in somewhere.


I am hoping it works! The only ways to work around the big 4-foot fixture I've come up with up til now was to either a) rig up some sort of "christmas light like" diy string of LEDs and run them amongst the T5 bulbs under the structure... or b) flip the T5's into a vertical position and add a high-power LED unit from above.

But I like this third option, of hopefully using small quantity of these weaker 15w units like this. I hope they can spread enough to get some light to the middle of the 4'x2' canopy.


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## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I hope I can see noticeable growth differences in the areas that are getting more light from the LEDs etc... then maybe I can move them around a bit to compensate for positioning. Or move the plants.


I'm sure you will, keep us posted please.



AltarNation said:


> What will LEDs do if they're too close? Straight burn, or do the leaves bleach out or what?


I wouldn't worry that much since they are only 15w. I think it's more of a blending issue that will cause the burning you speak of. For instance, if corals that are grown in aquariums get way more red light then they should, they will start to "bleach out" as well. I think it has to do with all red and not enough blue getting to that particular leaf to cause this burning, bleaching effect. I would play with the bulb distance moving it closer and away to try and get a proper light blend so that your plants don't have "red only" light getting to them anywhere. It's probably a good thing that these LEDs have a 120 viewing angle for your purposes, it's unfortunate you couldn't just drill some holes in the middle of your T5 fixture and install them there.


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## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I'm sure you will, keep us posted please.
> 
> 
> I wouldn't worry that much since they are only 15w. I think it's more of a blending issue that will cause the burning you speak of. For instance, if corals that are grown in aquariums get way more red light then they should, they will start to "bleach out" as well. I think it has to do with all red and not enough blue getting to that particular leaf to cause this burning, bleaching effect. I would play with the bulb distance moving it closer and away to try and get a proper light blend so that your plants don't have "red only" light getting to them anywhere. It's probably a good thing that these LEDs have a 120 viewing angle for your purposes, it's unfortunate you couldn't just drill some holes in the middle of your T5 fixture and install them there.


Yeah, right on. I will be messing with it a good bit. Thanks for the info on the bleaching and what not. I will definitely be keeping y'all posted and will do progress pics once I get it set up with the LEDs.

I like the 120 viewing angle. I didn't even notice that before I ordered it, haha. But yes, I think it would work well for my application as I'm supplementing widely and don't necessarily want to focus it much.

Can't wait to play with new toys.  I'm such a child...


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## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I am hoping it works! The only ways to work around the big 4-foot fixture I've come up with up til now was to either a) rig up some sort of "christmas light like" diy string of LEDs and run them amongst the T5 bulbs under the structure...


I like this idea. With the correct LED driver you pretty much could make a christmas light like string array with 20 or so 5 watt 660nm LEDs inbetween your T5 bulbs and just glue the LEDs right onto the fixture. Might want to consider those individual LED heat sinks or a fan blowing on your light fixture. I'm not sure you would be able to cool your fixture enough. I know LEDs require adequate cooling to even work properly.


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## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

Wait, isn't the title of this thread "Using T5's without LEDs"?


----------



## falcon223 (Feb 14, 2012)

The tread is evolving.


----------



## falcon223 (Feb 14, 2012)

Will this bulb give us the far red we need?







 
Model Number: 20997 


*MSRP $39.85* 
*Our Price:* $31.88 
*Sale Price: $27.10 *

*Special Instructions:* Price is per individual unit.
(Minimum order): 6

 
*Availability::* Please allow 1 week for delivery


----------



## Psytranceorgy (Feb 14, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Will this bulb give us the far red we need?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am going to say, NO:


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## mipainpatient (Feb 14, 2012)

heh just added a reptiglo UVb 10.0 (26w CFL) to my afore-outlined setup, sitting between the 2xCFLs on the bottom of the diagram, and down from the UFO, so basically the footprint with the UFO gets more UVb dose (no UV in the UFO) but at canopy height, slightly above the other CFLs as I am trying to splay the output across all of the canopy.
Some of the tops are as close as 8", most more like 15-20"...after 2 hours no significant damage visible so I may leave it on for full 12/12 if it doesn't show negative side effects.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 14, 2012)

Ive looked at those also, they're a 610nm bulb, good for commercial displays and games at the carnival, not so good for plants. Sylvania does make the Gro-Lux which is a tri-band tube heavy in 630-660nm like other pink plant bulbs, but with a little less green I think, I also think they're EU only.
Ive googled every combination of T5 and Red and seen so many bulbs (and found quite a few that use the same SPD that everyone thought was the Fiji Purples for so long)


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 14, 2012)

I retract my former dis-approval for the Roseate's, I think they may have their place in filling in a complete spectrum. They appeared flat white next to the FloraSun and RedSuns but on their own they do infact show a pink/rosy hue. So there's some red in there, but Im still reserving them for the topmost slot in my sidelights. I got my replacement PlantGrow's so they've replaced the Roseate's in my main flowering panel. The PlantGrow's are almost identical to the FloraSun's, but twice the price and I think lower quality... I had one snap in shipping, then the two I have now both have small nicks on the inside of the tube, maybe where the mercury has scraped the phosphor off the glass, or where it just didnt ahere properly, but there are areas that have tiny bright white specks on the otherwise rosy tube... not good. tiny UVc leaks.

Pics later. Final version of my flowering panel. Harvested Mari-guaro Cactus! 14.60oz wet wt.... for 14" total height!!!! granted wet weight, but 1oz per inch of height lol!


----------



## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

400w HPS + 400w Horti Blue update,


----------



## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

The calyx's never seem to fill up as much as they should when I grow. Is there something that can be done to get the calyx's to swell more?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 14, 2012)

^
Patience Grasshoppa'


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## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Wait, isn't the title of this thread "Using T5's without LEDs"?


Ahahahahaha.


----------



## AltarNation (Feb 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> The calyx's never seem to fill up as much as they should when I grow. Is there something that can be done to get the calyx's to swell more?


I felt the same way towards what I thought was the end of my grow... but the parts I left to mature farther eventually swelled and I definitely see the difference now. My problem was that my plants tended to keep foxtailing and growing out rather than swelling... I think this was a symptom of heat stress though. Also, while the calyxes did swell, I also feel that it over-matured a little, so I guess I missed the window on both harvests.


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## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

Well, I just started straight H2O watering, do you think that this is a good time to start H2O only, or should I keep givin em something to eat? And what should I fed them at this point?


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## BlueB (Feb 14, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Well, I just started straight H2O watering, do you think that this is a good time to start H2O only, or should I keep givin em something to eat? And what should I fed them at this point?


I'm feeling that they don't need any more food from here on out(unless someone says otherwise), but is there any other sort of non-nutrient type of additive or booster that would be good to mix into the water, or STRAIGHT PH'D RO WATER ONLY? I've always kinda been unsure at this point what to be giving them as far as the liquid type goes. Some people say to use a sugar type based booster(Molasses, Honey, Sugar Cane Vanasse) through the whole grow up until the last week when you start to flush with plain H2O, but I've always thought the sugar boosters were for the veg to flower stage and more for growing, not the ripening stage. Does anyone have any experience with these types of carb boosters? Or recommend another type of ripening sauce?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 14, 2012)

Final Flowering Panel after swapping the PlantGrows in for the Roseates


Top Down... FloraSun, RedSun, CoralWave, PlantGrow, FloraSun, RedSun, CoralWave, PlantGrow

Here's what the roseates look like next to different bulbs

bloom, actinic, x2 Roseates. 
They look good here, but arent as pink as FloraSuns or PlantGrows. My side panels will be (top down) Roseate, RedSun, Actinic, Bloom


----------



## Undercover Cop (Feb 14, 2012)

So after harvesting the Mari-guaro cactus...



14.60oz wet... 14" total height... not bad


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## PSUAGRO. (Feb 14, 2012)

****Who needs far red led bulb?????=====hortamericas.com..under led grow lights(duh)
Philips green power horticultural leds have arrived.....$68.00 bucks a pop....not bad 
Yes i'm a fan(philips) will be buying these as soon as my tax refund [email protected] arrives...

Oh [email protected] I forgot ^^^ those buds where flowered under T5?? no matter there awesome........


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

Interesting article on UV light and what it can do for you and your plants,

http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2009/MAY/USDA_260509.htm


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> ****Who needs far red led bulb?????=====hortamericas.com..under led grow lights(duh)
> Philips green power horticultural leds have arrived.....$68.00 bucks a pop....not bad
> Yes i'm a fan(philips) will be buying these as soon as my tax refund [email protected] arrives...
> 
> Oh [email protected] I forgot ^^^ those buds where flowered under T5?? no matter there awesome........


Are you sure these will grow cannabis? Looks like they are growing lettuce from the manufactures photos and using them as supplemental lighting to extend the photoperiod for strawberries, not using them as the main source of light. I can't even find where it gives the wattage for those single bulb $68 LEDs. The strip versions that sell for $250 only use around 30w. I purchased a 36w Kessil for $195 with free shipping. Sounds like another expensive, low wattage supplement alternative.

Here are the specs for the 4 ft strip 660nm only LEDs that sell for $234 a piece, they are only 28w each. That's like spending $234 for one 4 ft T5 tube,


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## kpmarine (Feb 15, 2012)

As I have been reading this thread, there seems to be a theory going around that the failing point of these T5 bulbs is the endcap adhesive. In order to preemptively avoid this, couldn't you just use some sort of high strength adhesive at the ends and let it dry before the first use? Hard to beak the encaps if you run a bead of 2-part epoxyright around the cap so it cant ever twist off. Viola! Faulty endcap problem solved before it occurs! It may have been mentioned already and I missed it, but thought I'd throw the idea out befrore it flew out my ear and was lost forever.


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## hyroot (Feb 15, 2012)

http://www.newport.com/Technical-Note-Solar-Simulator-Sample-Calculations/412211/1033/content.aspx


http://5e.plantphys.net/article.php?ch=9&id=131


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## PetFlora (Feb 15, 2012)

hyroot said:


> http://www.advancedledlights.com/products/SpectraBoost-Grow-Spotlight---15w-High-Intensity-LED-Grow-Light.html
> 
> Cheaper than kessil and does not have the the sam lense that supposedly mkes kessils weak.


There's a Kessil grow here that is looking damned nice *4 Kessils 600W HID*


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## PetFlora (Feb 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Well, I just started straight H2O watering, do you think that this is a good time to start H2O only, or should I keep givin em something to eat? And what should I fed them at this point?


Far from definitive, but I was dealing with a PM problem on the plant I am baby sitting. She was near to finish, no more watering, but I was spraying her 4Xs a day with H2O2. Certainly seemed to like it


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## PetFlora (Feb 15, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> I have a pair of the 15w advanced LEDs, their main flaw (IMHO unless you are just looking for supplemental) is the 120 degree angle.
> If you want to conserve intensity in LEDs you need less than 90 degrees, 60 would be ideal for my application. I use the 15w'ers on seedlings and in the veg tent, which is small enough that you can see blue/magenta light bouncing from every little 2mmx2mm bump in the pounded mylar, so at the very least that 120 degree angle is getting it out there into the canopy, I will give it that.
> But the most effective lights (LED) that I have seen maintain a smaller exit angle.
> Btw if you haven't read me say it yet, I use t5 + LED + CFL
> ...


And to further confuse (or unconfuse) the led controversy http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=oKEKkXAS7K4 especially when you consider the source. The 2-3 watt COULD have inferior diodes


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## PetFlora (Feb 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> That was probably the reason the guy at ledgrow.eu used the mylar around his grow area to give it a "tube effect." Although some light may get wasted without the individual reflectors directing the light in a beam like fashion towards the plant, its true that the light would blend quite a bit more without the reflectors in the way, especially right up by the bulbs and not X inches away. I'm sure some light would be wasted since mylar isn't as perfectly reflective as a highly polished reflector, but I think his main concern was light blending. Since his grow area was more of a tube shape with mylar then most of that "wasted light" would be reflected back onto the plants eventually. It looked like the space between the lights and the canopy wasn't more than 24" or so. In an open area type grow, and without side-lighting, reflectors make the most sense. Keep in mind that these grows he's doing are supposedly only using 60w max. It looks like a 2' x 3' area or around there. 2w LEDs
> This webpage starts at the bottom and reads up to the top,
> 
> http://www.ledgrow.eu/test7.html
> ...


He has gone back and forth on IR and now appears to leave it on throughout lights on


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## PetFlora (Feb 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Yeah, I'm talkin LEDs. They have a viewing angle of around 60 degrees, so that's why this guy took the reflectors off, probably not needed. T5's have a viewing angle of 360 degrees, so the reflector for them makes sense. You could always put the LEDs even with the tips of the T5 reflectors and that way none of the LED light would be cut off by the T5's reflector getting in the way.


Do you mean 'lenses" instead of reflectors?


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Do you mean 'lenses" instead of reflectors?


No, lenses are pointless from what I've read because all they are doing is blocking some of the spectral output. Like how UVb gets block through glass.


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

Today I installed the two Kessil h150 Red LEDs on a 45 degree downward angle on to the canopy.
Here is what the canopy looks like now with the addition of the red leds, Much more red-purple! 

Before adding the Red LEDs

After adding the Red LEDs

Note the color change.

Hyroot, I now see this lense that you were speaking of. It's a frosted like thin plastic disc that sits over the led to diffuse the light. I can see how this would take away from spectral output. It looks like it could be taken out, but I'm sure it would void the warranty.


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## PetFlora (Feb 15, 2012)

It appears that growled.eu has various diameter (and angle) recesses in his fixture to maximize correct spectrum dispersions, rather than using 60/90/120 lenses


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

Post removed by user, no bud porn for you!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 15, 2012)

^ yea that sounds good but still have the heat from the HID.

Which LEDs are you peddling on about?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 15, 2012)

Wow, off topic abit here. My beloved T5 thread is becoming diluted with convo about HID and LEDs, they will all work just fine, and have their own threads to show it.


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## AltarNation (Feb 15, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Wow, off topic abit here. My beloved T5 thread is becoming diluted with convo about HID and LEDs, they will all work just fine, and have their own threads to show it.


Haha. It's true, it's true. However, it was a natural evolution as we attempted to fill the 660nm range. At least for me, that's the only reason I ended up off T5... to discuss supplementary needs..


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## PSUAGRO. (Feb 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Are you sure these will grow cannabis? Looks like they are growing lettuce from the manufactures photos and using them as supplemental lighting to extend the photoperiod for strawberries, not using them as the main source of light. I can't even find where it gives the wattage for those single bulb $68 LEDs. The strip versions that sell for $250 only use around 30w. I purchased a 36w Kessil for $195 with free shipping. Sounds like another expensive, low wattage supplement alternative.
> 
> Here are the specs for the 4 ft strip 660nm only LEDs that sell for $234 a piece, they are only 28w each. That's like spending $234 for one 4 ft T5 tube,
> View attachment 2060769


Yeah the Far red bulb..........as an add on/supplementation...........not for main source...
I've misunderstood your intentions with the Far red...........my apologies


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> ^ yea that sounds good but still have the heat from the HID.



That's true, heat sucks!!!!!!!!!!


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Yeah the Far red bulb..........as an add on/supplementation...........not for main source...
> I've misunderstood your intentions with the Far red...........my apologies


Have you not seen the spectral absorption graph for terrestrial photosynthesis? When the seasons change, the sun is lower in the sky. It makes the overall light spectrum a bit more red heavy. Plants respond to this by taking in more carbohydrates and speed up the photosynthesis process. They respond because the light spectrum is flooded with the deeper wavelengths. The largest, and one of the most important peak wavelengths for driving photosynthesis is that magical 660nm wavelength. Without it, you are starving your plant quite a bit. It also means your plants aren't going to be as happy as they could be. It's not my fault, it's just the way it is. So far at least to my knowledge, no T5 is able to emit that part of the spectrum in a large enough "volume" to create the perfect balance.



Undercover Cop said:


> Wow, off topic abit here. My beloved T5 thread is becoming diluted with convo about HID and LEDs, they will all work just fine, and have their own threads to show it.


The reason I shared that LED bud photo here(which I'm so sorry for, I just thought everyone liked bud porn here and those are some sexy ass buds), is because this guy who grew the buds was only using WHITE AND 660NM RED LEDS. The reason it fits in THIS THREAD is because it has to do with spectral output balance, something that everyone here has been trying to achieve to accommodate their individual strain/s of plants. So again, something about those white LEDs has been working really well for this grower. THEREFORE, It might be a good idea to do a few trial runs with some WHITE T5's. His white LEDs were 4100K rated which is in the ballpark of some CFLs. Just something to think about that's all!

It would be a good thing to conclude this thread at some point so why not conclude that T5's grow damn good buds, but could do better with extra deep red wavelengths added to them? Whether it's through LEDs, Candlelight, me farting on fire, to produce that deep red wavelength, or someday someone invents a T5 that emits enough red light, the added wavelength is going to improve your grow exponentially in yield and quality. Let's not forget the overall purpose of trying to grow the best medicine possible!


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## mipainpatient (Feb 15, 2012)

Ya know, I had been operating on the assumption that the seasonal color change concept had been debunked... (with the exception of color change resulting from other leaves from other plants beginning leaf senescence and w/o the chlorophyl the other leaf pigments show through....heavy red/orange here, read the rest to make sense of this)

Heres what I understand of spectrum change morphologies:
(assuming adequate baseline photon density for photosynth needs)
If you go from higher blue/red aka "balanced spectrum" or "high quality light" ---> high green/yellow/IR you will get shade avoidance morphisms (hormone-based growth changes, stem elongation--everywhere affected by the spectrum change, including inside your budding structure) 
If you make the reverse flip from high green/yellow/IR ----> blue/red balanced you should see a cessation of the shade avoidance morphisms. Stretch time is done. This is independent of "flower stretch" which is by my understanding a shade avoidance superreaction to the 12/12 flip. Meaning the hormones go so heavy into overdrive it brings about a change in cell differentiation, initiating generative growth. AKA you just cut out 6 hours of light (moles of light per meter^2 * seconds) which is a lot of light, plants try and try to get back to the sweet spot with more moles of photons, but can't, so the hormonal shift brings about generative growth. Just a theory of mine but maybe I haven't made it to the paper which would confirm/disconfirm it yet.

So why does near IR (our beloved 660 fits this) and IR spectrum change matter? well to the plant this means that someone probably got in the way of our "money spot" and we need to do some growing...

Anyhow if this is still all greek to you I apologize... but for those for whom it isn't, think about how sativas do that grow a bit/ripen a bit thing...what if you timed your spectral changes with this to maximize effect......

Peace yall
MPP
If you do the reverse, high green/yellow/IR to


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

"Most photomorphogenous processes of terrestrial plants are controlled by bright red and an alternation between red (_lambda_ = 660 nm) and far-red (_lambda_ = 730 nm) light. The accompanying receptor is phytochrome, a protein-chromophore-complex existing in at least two different states that can be transferred from one state to the other upon light exposure."................http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e30/30.htm

*The phytochrome molecule is the photoreceptor for red lightresponses. It exists in two forms, Pr and Pfr:*





*The Pr form:*

Absorbs at a peak of 666 nm
Is the form synthesized in dark-grown seedlings.
When Pr absorbs red light, it is converted to the Pfr form................http://www.mobot.org/jwcross/duckweed/phytochrome.htm
*-* The *blue*, *red*, and *far-red* are active in *photomorphogenesis*, the regulation of plant development by light. The pigments involved in light absorption are the phytochrome, the carotenoids, and flavins. The pigments that are responsible for *phototropism*, the directional response of plants to unilateral light, absorb light in the *violet*, *blue*, and *green* regions (Poincelot 1980).

*-* Vegetation absorbs *red* but transmits *far-red* light so that light under a canopy or reflected from nearby stems has more of the far-red light or has a low red to far-red (*red/far-red*) light ratio. This signals a plant of the presence of neighboring plants. It induces stem elongation, suppressed branching, and early flowering of plants to outgrow competitors and to complete their life cycle before they are deprived of sufficient light (Arnold Arboretum 2010). These responses are characteristic of the *shade-avoidance syndrome* (Cerdan and Chory 2003)...................http://www.cropsreview.com/light-quality.html

(In the website of the American Societyof Plant Biologists.)
This bean plant action spectrum has a red peak and a violet-blue peak atwavelengths similar to those of chlorophyll A. The red peak is hown to bearound 665 nm and the blue peak is shown to be around 440 nm. Unlike many otherpublished action spectra, the blue peak is not as great as the red peak.
*One more note 5/3/2010:* The action curve is shown to be of a measure ofphotosynthetic action per photon, rather than per unit energy. To convert thisto photosynthetic action per unit energy, this curve needs to be weighted bywavelength. That would make the blue peak having a value around 55-60% of thatof the red peak. At 595 nm, photosyntetic action per unit energy/power of lightis about 81% of peak. At 585 nm, this figure is 76% of peak. The "green minimum"is around 525-530 nm with photosynthetic action around 50% of peak. There isanother minimum in the greenish blue around 475 nm, with photosynthetic actionaround 48% of peak. This would alter the curve to resemble most of the 33photosyntetic spectral action curves linked below.
Update 5/3/2010: Spectral action curves for 33 plant species are shown in:
 Page 1of explanations
 Page 2of explanations, including notation of what plant each curve is for
The curves themselves

These curves have peak wavelength anywhere from 645 to 690 nm in the red................http://donklipstein.com/photosyn.html

Photosynthesis,
http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/21666630/734929264/name/Ch-7-9-Plant


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

mipainpatient said:


> So why does near IR (our beloved 660 fits this) and IR spectrum change matter?


Infra-red doesn't even start until 740nm. That's quite far from 660nm actually. 110nm away. if you subtract 110nm from 660nm you get GREEN. 660nm is only 30nm farther up the scale than 630nm which is where red only BEGINS. 660nm is in the beginning of the deep-red zone which goes all the way up to 700nm and then FAR-RED starts at 700nm and goes up to 740nm or INFRARED. IR is all the wavelengths beyond 740 indefinitely.

So to clarify, 730nm is NEAR IR, not 660nm.



mipainpatient said:


> *If you go from higher blue/red aka "balanced spectrum" or "high quality light" ---> high green/yellow/IR you will get shade avoidance morphisms (hormone-based growth changes, stem elongation--everywhere affected by the spectrum change*


Actually this is only partially true. Near Infra-red wavelengths are what trigger stretching. The 660nm range of light will prevent the stretch effect you speak of by actually letting the rest of the plant grow(i.e. buds, leaves), not just the stems. Now do you get it? The 660nm range(also referred to as deep red) is like the carburetor for photosynthesis. Does that make sense?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 15, 2012)

AquaMedic Plant Grow, ATI ProColor, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed FloraSun, CoralLife Colormax
Ozram Fluora77 *EU only, Sylvania Gro-lux *EU only

All have a peak at 660, and a majority of their output in the 610-660 region.

Bulb selection/balance.

I was reminded by someone recently that the thread was called LED WITHOUT LED's, and the point was to prove a concept, that the spectrums could be created _without_ LED. 
My personal opinion, I dont like LED's for growing. They're an incredible technology, I personally own a 9diode spotlight that can outshine any cars high beams and put a perfect circle spot on a wall almost a quarter mile away. But for growing, unless you got fat pockets (I dont), most people cant afford a quality high power fixture like Phaeton has (how much $ are those per fixture again?) T5's are expensive as hell, but do-able on a budget, unless you wanna get your pants pulled down with a chinese UFO off ebay, I prefer T5's. Thats all my _opinion_ tho, Im sure I could be proven wrong. But Im fully invested in T5's here and love coming here to try to perfect my game with everyones help (for awhile there I was getting good info every single day, alot from blueb, thanks again and again and again) 



BlueB said:


> It would be a good thing to conclude this thread at some point...


Im sure when Prof gets tired of his thread he may do that, however its been evolving since long before I ever got here, and Ive followed through quite a few twists and turns since I stumbled upon this highly informative/educatoinal/amusing thread Ive come to kinda call home. Not trying to put anyone down, just trying to keep the thread on track in Prof's vacation absense. I flowered using HPS, but I kept my input here restricted to T5 related convo and my experiences using them for Veg and to supplement Flowering.


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## kushonly420 (Feb 15, 2012)

I got two 8 bulb fixtures im going to be using for veg. Ive been reading through this thread and there are so many recommended variation of bulbs. Im just wondering what you guys think would be the best 8 bulb setup so far. I already picked up my clones and I am vegging them under old 6500k bulbs, so I kind of need to get my bulbs asap; preferably tomorrow. So if you guys could please help me choose the best configuration for veg. TY FAM!


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## AltarNation (Feb 15, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Haha. It's true, it's true. However, it was a natural evolution as we attempted to fill the 660nm range. At least for me, that's the only reason I ended up off T5... to discuss supplementary needs..





Undercover Cop said:


> AquaMedic Plant Grow, ATI ProColor, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed FloraSun, CoralLife Colormax
> Ozram Fluora77 *EU only, Sylvania Gro-lux *EU only
> 
> All have a peak at 660, and a majority of their output in the 610-660 region.
> ...


Thanks for the recommendations, I will look into those bulbs. It's not just about having the 660nm but also being able to provide a purely red source gives my overall blue:red ratio a big boost that is hard to attain with other fluoro tubes because they tend to contain a lot of blue as well as whatever red they might have. That being said, I must have overlooked that Aquamedic Plant Grow, it does look like it has a nice spike at 660.


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> AquaMedic Plant Grow, ATI ProColor, AquaticLife Roseates, ZooMed FloraSun, CoralLife Colormax
> Ozram Fluora77 *EU only, Sylvania Gro-lux *EU only
> 
> All have a peak at 660, and a majority of their output in the 610-660 region.
> ...


Right, which makes them very useful. But those bulbs are designed around the aquarium industry. They are spec'd for illuminating plants that are under water, which require much more blue light unlike terrestrial plants. "Photosynthesis works most fundamentally from red light and secondarily fromblue light. However, many plants have some need for blue light for propergrowth regulation and/or flowering and/or fruiting."

This is why I've added the 660nm LED supplementation. I'm still using 4 Flora Suns in my grow. I will always swear by using those. And for the added IR I'm using a Coral Wave. For everything else I'm using the Middays. I've been tuning my light mixture as my plants respond and tell me what to do!

I've aligned the supplement LEDs now so that they are being evenly mixed with the T5's at the canopy. Here is the overall light color,
it stills seems quite a bit blue heavy. I might have to take out the Actinic Plus and replace with a Flora Sun, or Midday.


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

kushonly420 said:


> I got two 8 bulb fixtures im going to be using for veg. Ive been reading through this thread and there are so many recommended variation of bulbs. Im just wondering what you guys think would be the best 8 bulb setup so far. I already picked up my clones and I am vegging them under old 6500k bulbs, so I kind of need to get my bulbs asap; preferably tomorrow. So if you guys could please help me choose the best configuration for veg. TY FAM!


It's going to take some playing around a bit on your end to find the spectrum your plants like best. I would start by adding Zoomed Flora Suns to your fixture in a 50/50 ratio and see what happens. If your plants start to stretch throw in a blue bulb like the Giesemann Actinic plus! Adding a couple bloom bulbs that are high in yellow light will increase growth and budding as well as adding 1 or 2 UVL Red Suns. Consider changing it up for each fixture to get an even mixture.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 15, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Thanks for the recommendations, I will look into those bulbs. It's not just about having the 660nm but also being able to provide a purely red source gives my overall blue:red ratio a big boost that is hard to attain with other fluoro tubes because they tend to contain a lot of blue as well as whatever red they might have. That being said, I must have overlooked that Aquamedic Plant Grow, it does look like it has a nice spike at 660.



I havent compared their B/G spikes, but their Red spikes are almost the same as the FloraSun... The two PlantGrows I have both have tiny little holes in the phosphor coating= UVc leaks... they just dont seem as well made as the FloraSuns. They're twice the price and seem like lower quality (both have these tiny holes, one area looks like the mercury scraped abit off, like a spotty patch) I'd recommend the FloraSuns over PlantGrow, they both look the same next to each other *see previous post... Final Flowering Panel.


I think the only bulb Ive come across that didnt have at least some output in blue and green was the Red Sun, I use them to increase the overall Red hue. To get enough 660 I think you may need about half of your tubes having it. I have 4 pink hued tubes (w/630-660) for BLUE/GREEN/RED , 2 RedSuns for RED , and 2 CoralWaves for BLUE/IR 
6 tubes have BLUE, 4 have GREEN, and ALL have RED 6/4/8 sounds like a decent ratio for flowering (I know I know that doesnt mean thats how much they output etc etc, but to my eyes and after compiling the SPD for all my bulbs, it looks like mostly red, some blue and very little green, so Im happy) 

Not saying its perfect (always looking to improve) but Im pretty happy


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## mipainpatient (Feb 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Infra-red doesn't even start until 740nm. That's quite far from 660nm actually. 110nm away. if you subtract 110nm from 660nm you get GREEN. 660nm is only 30nm farther up the scale than 630nm which is where red only BEGINS. 660nm is in the beginning of the deep-red zone which goes all the way up to 700nm and then FAR-RED starts at 700nm and goes up to 740nm or INFRARED. IR is all the wavelengths beyond 740 indefinitely.
> 
> So to clarify, 730nm is NEAR IR, not 660nm.
> 
> ...


Yea my bad, near-IR is out of the human vis range. 
Some really great stuff on phytochrome fleshed out in the sci lit, have fun with your grows all.
MPP over and out


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 15, 2012)

kushonly420 said:


> I got two 8 bulb fixtures im going to be using for veg. Ive been reading through this thread and there are so many recommended variation of bulbs. Im just wondering what you guys think would be the best 8 bulb setup so far. I already picked up my clones and I am vegging them under old 6500k bulbs, so I kind of need to get my bulbs asap; preferably tomorrow. So if you guys could please help me choose the best configuration for veg. TY FAM!



Welcome to the community! FloraSuns and WavePoint Blue/ReefWave. $8ea! would work well through Veg, then for flowering... Im sure you'll have an idea by the time you get there


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## BlueB (Feb 15, 2012)

I'm not trying to force this 660nm idea on anyone, sorry if it seems that way! I'm just super excited to see some major results without tacking on the heat and added electricity charge, while keeping in mind that it may not work! The science is there, it's proven for the most part although I think that research needs to be limited to a controlled environment and test subjects(i.e. cannabis). Just because it works well for one person, doesn't mean it will work well for another!

U.C. how long was your flower cycle from start to finish? How does it compare to the rated length of time that the strain/s your grew are supposed to have.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 15, 2012)

BlueB said:


> U.C. how long was your flower cycle from start to finish? How does it compare to the rated length of time that the strain/s your grew are supposed to have.


My current grow is my first with any quality strains, so I dont have any to compare to. From what Ive seen, a blue heavy veg spectrum causes slower growth, but much tighter internodes and bushier so it may take longer to veg to a suitable size for flowering. But for flowering, no idea. The Mari-guaro was harvested at about 68days, but she could have gone longer after taking the tops/fan leaves for the under flowers to ripen abit. But around 9 weeks for an indica is normal, Sativa's can be tricky and upto 12-13weeks sometimes for a producer.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 15, 2012)

Its A Girl!!

mexican brick bagseed, 12/12 since 10days old.


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I was reminded by someone recently that the thread was called LED WITHOUT LED's, and the point was to prove a concept, that the spectrums could be created _without_ LED.


Fair enough... I believe that we have proven that, though. I grew out a perfectly decent crop with considerably LESS red than I have even now without my LED supplements. I've already proven to myself that I can meet the spectrum needs of the plant with T5's... now I'm just being a perfectionist, trying to get as much as I can out of my current setup as I can, given the spatial and other limitations.

I am grateful for this thread and all the information in it...

Thanks guys and girls.


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## PetFlora (Feb 16, 2012)

Sorry UC, but I'm with AltarNation. It's clear that we have proven the concept to a point. Yes you can mos def grow well using HO T5s, BUT, they do leave something to be desired due to lack of high quality 660 nm bulbs. Once we knew that, why wouldn't we explore what is needed to introduce it to further perfect our grows. I know you and I have spent a fair amount off google time In Search Of, to no avail, so enter Plan B- supplementation which seems only available with LEDs. Oh Well


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 16, 2012)

Completely understandable, I'm the same way and don't think I'll ever really be satisfied, but I come here for T5 info and lately its been pages and pages about leds. I love the group, but there are tons of threads that have already explored and perfected it, like we're doing here w t5. This is the only thread really making progress with T5s, and is the source of info for lots of others who are curious about, or are just starting out with T5s. Lets keep it the concentrated source of T5 info we've made it. If someone stumbles into the thread and reads all about LEDs they may assume the "without LEDs" part failed.


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Completely understandable, I'm the same way and don't think I'll ever really be satisfied, but I come here for T5 info and lately its been pages and pages about leds. I love the group, but there are tons of threads that have already explored and perfected it, like we're doing here w t5. This is the only thread really making progress with T5s, and is the source of info for lots of others who are curious about, or are just starting out with T5s. Lets keep it the concentrated source of T5 info we've made it. If someone stumbles into the thread and reads all about LEDs they may assume the "without LEDs" part failed.


True Enough! But I wouldn't assume anything about what others might assume, that's just not my perrogative. :0) I hope that the T5 contents of this thread continue to flourish... and I hope that anyone reading it can understand that just because I am experimenting with LEDs doesn't mean I'm giving up on completing the spectrum with just T5's, hehe. I probably would have stuck to just the T5's exclusively if I could get more Red Suns. I really want to see what happens if I shift the red balance, though. It's a sort of test, really... to see how important the balance is...

None the less, I definitely understand where you're coming from, I hope that's clear! I understand wanting to keep the thread on focus... and I feel we are still on focus, albeit slightly deviated temporarily for lack of particularly T5-focused content for the moment... (and perhaps not quite conforming to the exact semantic terms of the title in the sense that we're technically playing with LEDs) I am sure that we'll get back on track when there is more to be said about T5's... 280+ pages is a lot of content and I think a lot of us are simply "out of breath" on the T5 subject for the moment. ie, I simply have nothing to say about them at the moment, lol. But I will post my new T5 veg 4-bulb unit as soon as it's purchased and put up. 

I love how discussing whether or not a thread has been thrown off topic always thows it way farther off topic. :facepalm: haha. (Especially once I open my long-winded mouth, lol.)

So yeah let's talk about T5's  Whether you supplement with LED (or HID) doesn't matter in my book, as long as we're talkin' about T5 usage! But that's just my opinion... I understand if others have more strict definitions of what does or does not belong in a particular thread.


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Completely understandable, I'm the same way and don't think I'll ever really be satisfied, but I come here for T5 info and lately its been pages and pages about leds. I love the group, but there are tons of threads that have already explored and perfected it, like we're doing here w t5. This is the only thread really making progress with T5s, and is the source of info for lots of others who are curious about, or are just starting out with T5s. Lets keep it the concentrated source of T5 info we've made it. If someone stumbles into the thread and reads all about LEDs they may assume the "without LEDs" part failed.


I have to agree with this, even though I'm the one the most responsible for flooding this place with LED ideas. What U.C. is trying to say is, let's keep this place as an information source for people that do not have access to anything other than T5's, or are only interested in using one source of light. Agreed, so we need to wrap this thread up before it gets way to big. Let's finish this thread by filling it with successful photos of T5 only buds so that if someone comes in here they will have the proof they need without having to search for it.


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

BlueB said:


> I have to agree with this, even though I'm the one the most responsible for flooding this place with LED ideas. What U.C. is trying to say is, let's keep this place as an information source for people that do not have access to anything other than T5's, or are only interested in using one source of light. Agreed, so we need to wrap this thread up before it gets way to big. Let's finish this thread by filling it with successful photos of T5 only buds so that if someone comes in here they will have the proof they need without having to search for it.


That's a nice idea! Haha.

To be honest, some of us are probably just getting "too comfortable" here. LoL. I know that I post in this thread more than anywhere else, heh. It's like a home to me on this site, so I'm hesitant to agree to pull the plug! But you are right. I should probably start a journal or something, lol.


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## PetFlora (Feb 16, 2012)

Yep. I think it has served its' purpose, but I would miss you guys. 

As I see it, at this point, we somehow need to band together to petition a mfg to produce a bulb that is concentrated in 630-660- possibly even 700. May need to create an escrow account to show money is there. I would upfront $$$ to buy 4-8. 

Could the reason be it is too expensive to produce?


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

I liked BlueB's idea so, here's a summary post for my T5-only grow's flowering period...

This is an 4-foot 8-bulb grow with the following: 2 fiji purps, 2 coral waves, 2 red suns, a Super Actinic Blue, and a UVL 75/25.
:









































DIY "air tube" for T5 ballasts (also sucks some of the heat off the bulbs from the crack between the ballasts and the reflectors) --this worked really well, easily bringing my room temps as a whole down a lot more compared to just pulling the air out of the top of the room.:
















































































































































Partial-Harvested my first batch probably too early due to newb error and worrying about a deficiency I never pinned down. Still, I pulled 182g's off of 7 plants under 430watts now, and then later another 3 oz's probably a little late for a total of roughly 10oz (260-something grams) off 7 plants in 430 watts so I felt pretty good about it, considering I botched it with my newb errors on timing the harvests and all my other errors...

Unfortunately I did not take as many well-lit harvest pics as I would have liked...

























































a Late Harvesting of the last of each plant..












Yielded another 3 oz's of small but fairly dense buds, which are curing in these jars now... might take some out later and take some more pics:













That's a rap on this... I learned my lessons in harvest timing and in good photo lighting. :0)


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Yep. I think it has served its' purpose, but I would miss you guys.
> 
> As I see it, at this point, we somehow need to band together to petition a mfg to produce a bulb that is concentrated in 630-660- possibly even 700. May need to create an escrow account to show money is there. I would upfront $$$ to buy 4-8.
> 
> Could the reason be it is too expensive to produce?


Good question and an interesting idea... I would probably throw in for some if the price was right.


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## PetFlora (Feb 16, 2012)

I just sent an email to Jeff at UV Lighting _"Is it possible to have a single bulb made up of ~ 50% 630 + ~50% 660, or ~ 630-700?
_

_What minimum order would be required?" _


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## PetFlora (Feb 16, 2012)

Jeff replied cannot mix red phosphors, and they only work with authorized retailers. I am thinking we can cut a deal with vendors if we have enough prepaid orders. Thoughts?


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

I honestly doubt UVL is going to play ball... they've been so quiet about this red sun problem I find their PR a little alarming... might be better talking up someone that already has a 660-dominant bulb like AquaMedic or Coral life... but I don't know if they can just drop the rest of the spectrum, it's probably built on the tri-band in the first place... so maybe UVL IS the right place to go, since they're the only ones who seem to be demonstrating the possibility of making a red-only bulb in the first place...

Edit: On the other hand, looking at a red sun chart it's probably built on a tri-band foundation as well as it has the three peaks, they'r ejust a lot smaller... so it doesn't seem like such a stretch to think they couldn't just put a lot less of those in (ie, make a 'very dim tri band') and then add a lot of red. It seems reasonable that anyone could do it if UVL can do it...


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I just sent an email to Jeff at UV Lighting _"Is it possible to have a single bulb made up of ~ 50% 630 + ~50% 660, or ~ 630-700?
> _
> 
> _What minimum order would be required?" _


Forget the 630nm spectrum. There is plenty of it in all the other T5 bulbs including cheapo bloom bulbs. Anyway the correct proportions for 630nm to 660nm is 25%/75%.

That means 25% 630 and 75% 660nm. What we need is a 660nm ONLY bulb! I'm sure the red phosphor used to make the 660nm spectrum would emit enough of the 630nm spectrum anyway.


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

Good point Blue! If you look at the clorophyll absorption charts it's a dramatically higher absorption rate at 660 than it is at 630!


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 16, 2012)

Or..... we could let the Prof wrap up his thread when hes done with his thread, and we can add our T5 related contributions whenever we have relevant input. I have a thread of my own, I come here to talk T5, then HID/cfl and everything else there. Im all for seeing everyones T5 bud shots, bring em on! Love it! Just not as a step towards wrapping up someone elses thread lol. Come on, its been going for like a year and a half! Others will come and go too, but this home needs to stay available for others to come and learn... No one is learning anything from "club T5" this is the RIU T5 think tank! Don't give up people, when I first joined the group it was debatable whether flowering successfully was even possible wT5s, oh how far we've come! Keep it up guys, were not done here!


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

Right on, I don't think we need to be done either, haha. But I still like the idea of posting summarial grow posts collectively in an easy to reach spot... too bad there IS no easy to reach spot... it would be cool if a thread owner could "pin" some of his own thread's posts so that they float just below the OP's post out of chronological order. (with an obvious flag to denote it)


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## PetFlora (Feb 16, 2012)

Not that I am pushing UVL. Hell, I have 3 bad Red Lifes (said he will replace when shipment arrives ~ 7 days. We could also use the 660 order as leverage). He says minimum order for 660s is 288 bulbs and roughly 5-7 weeks to produce. So he seems willing to play ball on some level.

What we need now is 36 growers to take 8 bulbs each. I'm in. 

If we deal direct with UVL (If not see *Plan B)*, I am thinking to protect ourselves we need an attorney's escrow account. Everyone can send their money there. Realize attorneys do not work for free (unless you can hook us up) so in addition to whatever price we get quoted, there will be pre negotiated attorney's fee. Plus shipping/handling to ~ 40 people. Whomever we contract with will no doubt add shipping charges to each destination. That part could get complicated. Now if we choose one bulb retailer to handle the transaction, of course they need to get paid, too. Most likely their percentage will be offset by attorney's fee to escrow anyway. So I am inclined to Plan B.

What I need now is who is in, and how many. 

*Plan B *We cut a deal directly through one retailer and simplify it. If I get a 288+ commitment I will shop the idea to other bulb mfgs. 

Balls in your court.


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> when I first joined the group it was debatable whether flowering successfully was even possible wT5s, oh how far we've come! Keep it up guys, were not done here!


A lot of people still doubt T5's can produce quality buds. I've even heard it's against the rules in some states to be a provider if you aren't using HID for your grows. I'm not sure if it applies to LEDs or not. The title of this thread would give someone the assumption that a person can re-create the PAR/PUR spectrum that is being produced with LEDs these days through using T5's without the help of LEDs. Well, we've summed that up to the best of the T5 world's capabilities. And the answer is, NO, T5's will never duplicate an exact PUR/PAR spectrum because they are not designed for gardening. They do pretty well however, but to a newcomer seeing the title of this thread for the first time his first thought is going to be, "Wow is it really possible to re-create a spectrum with these special T5 bulbs that match that which can be done with LEDs?" There's nothing more we can do other than add other light sources. I didn't mean this thread should be closed, just summed up eventually so that people have an answer. Until they make a 75/25 660/630nm bulb, the answer is NO. Please remember that this thread is not entitled, "Can T5's produce good buds." We've established that over and over and over and over and over, the real question is, "Can T5's actually duplicate the spectral output in a red/blue 6:1 balanced ratio that is similar to LEDs?"


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Not that I am pushing UVL. Hell, I have 3 bad Red Lifes (said he will replace when shipment arrives ~ 7 days. We could also use the 660 order as leverage). He says minimum order for 660s is 288 bulbs and roughly 5-7 weeks to produce. So he seems willing to play ball on some level.
> 
> What we need now is 36 growers to take 8 bulbs each. I'm in.
> 
> ...


HOLD THE PHONE WOMAN! I would throw down enough money for 50 of these 660nm bulbs if I knew it was going to be a quality product and isn't going to "leak" or crap out like the red suns have been doing for quite a few people(I've never had a problem with my red suns however). We need a sample first, that's how the industry works. Keep trying to work out a deal with this guy that makes sense on the consumer's side. UVL would be absolute morons to not realize the market potential for these bulbs! Have them produce a few samples for us to try out. Then we'll talk. BTW, whatever happened with WavePoint? Maybe they would be more inclined to create a few samples for us to try.


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

BTW, posting photos of LED only grown buds in here 100% goes along with the title of this thread. If we are trying to re-create the LED spectrum with T5's, then doesn't it make sense to compare T5 grown buds to LED grown buds?

And if someone on the LED side discovers how to grow even fatter buds by changing the spectrum a little bit, wouldn't someone on the T5 side want to know about it so that they can try that change in spectrum with T5's(if possible) as well? fo realz


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 16, 2012)

Damn, no reason to get so defensive, or to remove posts/pics... All info is good info, but when I check my phone or comp for the latest posts and newest developments with T5s, and its page after page of led posts, I start to wonder if maybe we've gotten off track. Sure, share useful info, please, we all want to know more about PAR growing. But again there are tons of other threads for LED related discussions. Sure, share your anecdotal stories of T5 vs LED or PAR or whatever, but consolidate them so its not pages and pages. Maybe I'm being a crusty old fuck, but really, I have no interest in LEDs (don't have disposable income for one). And I'm NOT convinced that you can't perfect the spectrum without LED. Ill never discourage anyone from trying to improve their grow, I know Ill never stop trying. And its not my thread to control, but without Prof here to say exactly what path he wants to take his thread, I vote to keep it on track.
Please share every damn T5 bud pic you take (everyone loves bud porn, and will show PROOF of the concept for doubters) that's why I love it here so much... major boner for T5 bud porn! But I also know where to go to discuss LED, HID or cfls. 
Sharing your experience using both is fine, whatever, post the LA county yellow pages for all I care, not my thread. I just think back two weeks ago when we were learning something new every day. Those that are just discovering the thread are gonna miss out on that
Theyre not gonna read thru hundreds of pages to get to the good stuff, they'll read the first page, then skip to the last page and learn all about LEDs. 

does anyone really think they've perfected their spectrum/bulb selection, nowhere else to go? And the ONLY option is LEDs? Im sure there are places for better info about LEDs than the T5 thread.

Ok, I'm done, I feel like a grumbly old asshole now for trying to salvage the thread that taught me so much. I just want it to stay in its current format, available for so many other people to use as a reference in their own grow.

Hate me or love me, I love my T5s and this is the only place online with such a concentration of knowledge... RIU T5 think tank! Lets keep it pure


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## AltarNation (Feb 16, 2012)

And now back to our previously scheduled program...? heh.

Went into my closet and found a cat had ripped the mylar off the wall and over a fluoro and some seedlings, knocking over two of them. D:

I think the seedlings are okay.

Cats are once again banned from the grow room. I was letting them back in because they're pretty harmless towards the vegging plants and the hair isn't getting all caught up in the sticky buds. But I guess now they are trying to chase mice through the wall and ripping the freaking mylar off in the process... BANNED...

Need to go to the hydro store and buy more T5's to replace CFL's in the new veg space... for these seedlings...


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 16, 2012)

Lol when I was setting up my room, still empty, I would invite my dog in to hang while I did my thing, now shes comfortable and will push the door open on her own and go in to sleep in the warmer room... 9 inch long chow/collie hair all over lol. No bueno


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

Not defensive, realized. LOL

I've switched my bulb setup a little today. 5 Flora Suns, 1 actinic plus, 1 blue plus, 1 coral wave, to balance out all the RED from the leds. Oops, I said it. LEDs LOL SO UNPURE!


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## kpmarine (Feb 16, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Not defensive, realized. LOL
> 
> I've switched my bulb setup a little today. 5 Flora Suns, 1 actinic plus, 1 blue plus, 1 coral wave, to balance out all the RED from the leds. Oops, I said it. LEDs LOL SO UNPURE!


LED's!?!? LED's?!?! Stands for "Light Emitting Devil"!!! Did you not hear?!?!  (Just teasing, I'm pretty new here, but this has rapidly become one of my go-to threads.) 2 8-bulb 48" T5's and the corresponding veg and flower bulbs. I have a GDP, ATF, and a Romulan just waiting for them. The Rom and GDP are both 17"+, just waiting for all the light to get here in the next couple days.


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> LED's!?!? LED's?!?! Stands for "Light Emitting Devil"!!! Did you not hear?!?!  (Just teasing, I'm pretty new here, but this has rapidly become one of my go-to threads.) 2 8-bulb 48" T5's and the corresponding veg and flower bulbs. I have a GDP, ATF, and a Romulan just waiting for them. The Rom and GDP are both 17"+, just waiting for all the light to get here in the next couple days.


LOL Have you had the Romulan before? \What are the romulan's qualities/downfalls if any?
ty


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## falcon223 (Feb 16, 2012)

What is this bulb?


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## kpmarine (Feb 16, 2012)

I got this clone from a dispensary near my house. I enjoy the Romulan myself, great for 2 bad knees and a bad back. Definitely an evening high in my opinion though. The stuff I tried did not mess around. My buddy and I smoked one bowl, and I was good for the whole evening. The only downside I have noticed is that its not a good outdoor plant (obviously irrelevant given the topic of this thread.), the yield seems good, and the potency is kick-ass by all accounts I have found. So if you grow it well, it seems like a good choice. The ones I have seems to be a good candidate for topping/lst combo, not alot of bushing like the Grand Daddy Purp. I'm still new at this game though, these three will be my first plants. I have some cuttings trying to root now off the Rom (7 or so). If the original does well, I can try some CS and see if I cant get some seeds for you. I'm out in Cali,so it wouldn't be hard to ship.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 16, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> What is this bulb?


discontinued in 54w, but available in the 2' length.. I think MarineDepot has em. 2ft only


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> LED's!?!? LED's?!?! Stands for "Light Emitting Devil"!!! Did you not hear?!?!  (Just teasing, I'm pretty new here, but this has rapidly become one of my go-to threads.) 2 8-bulb 48" T5's and the corresponding veg and flower bulbs. I have a GDP, ATF, and a Romulan just waiting for them. The Rom and GDP are both 17"+, just waiting for all the light to get here in the next couple days.


what spectrum of tubes did you get?


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## BlueB (Feb 16, 2012)

Read this and couldn't help but think that maybe this is the reason some of you are having problems with your UVL Red Sun bulbs? I know that no one is using VHO fixtures but if the bulbs aren't being cooled enough there can be a big drop in your spectrum, hence the orange. The red phosphor will burn out quickly. I'm not sure if all UVL T5 bulbs are rated to be used with VHO or what(which seems like it would make the bulbs even more stable at HO wattages), but maybe the heat is contributing to the failures?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is from some other aquarium website;

Standard wattage T5 lamps should fire fine in a high output fixture. If you chose to do this I would make sure the fixture is ventilated with forced air ie fans. T5 lamps are limited in the amount of phosphor that can be used in each lamp by the diameter of the lamp. Heat causes the phosphors to deteriorate. The higher the temperature the lamps experience the faster the phosphors will deteriorate. I've seen HO T5 lamps run at VHO output (54 watt lamps run at 85 watts) dramatically shift in spectrum in as little as two months without forced air ventilation.

Regards,
George
http://www.dendroboard.com/forum/parts-construction/41511-can-regular-t5-bulbs-used-t5ho-fixtures.html


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## Myles117 (Feb 16, 2012)

very goood info, so a bulbs life can essentially be extended by keeping them cooler. wonder how much longer the bulb would perform at optimum light quality with different running temps. like if i keep my bulbs ten degrees cooler, would they last say 15% longer? just an example but im quite curious now!


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## Calrt (Feb 16, 2012)

I would be in for 10-15 660nm bulbs!


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## kpmarine (Feb 17, 2012)

BlueB said:


> what spectrum of tubes did you get?


 I have pretty close to the prof's flower and veg setup, seemed like a good starting point.


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## PetFlora (Feb 17, 2012)

Jeff (UVL) says they have 99% QC. Of course I laid it out that we would want assurance that all our defective Red Lifes would be replaced (my primary reason for suggesting we give UVL the shot). Months back, Scott from Aquarium Specialty suspected the problem had to do with the adhesive used on that run of end caps. That should be a simple solution. 

I put my plant into 48 hrs darkness, and gave the top bud a soft squeeze late yesterday. Tight as can be


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## PetFlora (Feb 17, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Damn, no reason to get so defensive, or to remove posts/pics... All info is good info, but when I check my phone or comp for the latest posts and newest developments with T5s, and its page after page of led posts, I start to wonder if maybe we've gotten off track. Sure, share useful info, please, we all want to know more about PAR growing. But again there are tons of other threads for LED related discussions. Sure, share your anecdotal stories of T5 vs LED or PAR or whatever, but consolidate them so its not pages and pages. Maybe I'm being a crusty old fuck, but really, I have no interest in LEDs (don't have disposable income for one). And I'm NOT convinced that you can't perfect the spectrum without LED. Ill never discourage anyone from trying to improve their grow, I know Ill never stop trying. And its not my thread to control, but without Prof here to say exactly what path he wants to take his thread, I vote to keep it on track.
> Please share every damn T5 bud pic you take (everyone loves bud porn, and will show PROOF of the concept for doubters) that's why I love it here so much... major boner for T5 bud porn! But I also know where to go to discuss LED, HID or cfls.
> Sharing your experience using both is fine, whatever, post the LA county yellow pages for all I care, not my thread. I just think back two weeks ago when we were learning something new every day. Those that are just discovering the thread are gonna miss out on that
> Theyre not gonna read thru hundreds of pages to get to the good stuff, they'll read the first page, then skip to the last page and learn all about LEDs.
> ...


Although I am not in total agreement, it was your original rant that got me to think, we probably wouldn't be discussing LEDs, IF, we had a 660, which morphed into maybe we can get a T5 mfg to produce one. So IMWOT, the LED conversation played an important role, but I hear you when the LED discussion is outside 660, as every other nm range is covered.

ASAP, we need enough people to pony up for a minimum run of 288 660s. I do not expect them to run samples for a variety of reasons, only one of which is production cost for a few samples of a specialty item. How would that help us? We would need 30-90 days to flesh them out, and what if the few had grow problems, and what if... I doubt seriously they would agree to wait. So let's put our money where our science is, and get this thing moving. As I mentioned, once I have verbal commitment I will shop the idea to other T5 mfgs.


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## PetFlora (Feb 17, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Read this and couldn't help but think that maybe this is the reason some of you are having problems with your UVL Red Sun bulbs? I know that no one is using VHO fixtures but if the bulbs aren't being cooled enough there can be a big drop in your spectrum, hence the orange. The red phosphor will burn out quickly. I'm not sure if all UVL T5 bulbs are rated to be used with VHO or what(which seems like it would make the bulbs even more stable at HO wattages), but maybe the heat is contributing to the failures?
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This is from some other aquarium website;
> 
> ...


My UVL Red Lifes/Suns were/are in a Bad Boy (good ventilation),with no top over fixture and lots of air space above. I'm pretty sure the problem is/was the interface point of end caps and glass. I have 3 other mfg bulbs in there with no issues.


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## Indicanna Jones (Feb 17, 2012)

What do you guys think of Zoo Med tubes?

http://www.zoomed.com/db/products/Search.php?SearchID=21&DatabaseID=2&ProductCategory=T5Lighting&Heading=Aquarium&Search.x=24&Search.y=20


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## PetFlora (Feb 17, 2012)

*Chop Shots:* Nuggz are small but very tight. Genetics, not T5s. Lots of trichs


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## BlueB (Feb 17, 2012)

I'm just gonna post this here too, you can do the math to figure out why,

*I just added 2 Kessil h150 REDs to my T5 grow to see if it will boost flowering. It's too early to tell as of yet, but I wanted to point out another grow journal that is only utilizing 60w of LED lighting and having outstanding results. He is running a DIY LED light that has 28 LEDs, 12 which are 660nm and 18 which are 2700K white. The white LEDs contain enough blue 460nm and also complete the spectrum. From what I can tell, he's getting better results than anyone I've ever seen and only using those 2 types of LEDs.

It's making me reconsider what T5s I'm going to use in my next T5 grow and also for wavelengths when I finally make the switch to LED as a sole source of lighting. Instead of having to deal with many LED wavelengths, it looks like it's potentially much better to just use 2700K white LEDs combined with 660nm LEDs.

Just as a side note, I've tried doing a 50/50 blend of 660nm T5 bulbs with full spectrum white T5s with some pretty amazing results. I got an extreme acceleration in growth rate and also a major increase in fan leaf size, but also at the same time some pretty major stretching. I've now added one pure blue bulb to that mixture and it seems to have halted the stretch.

Here is the journal where the grower is using 12, 660nm and 16, 2700K white(full spectrum) LEDs only, with max watt output at 60w.
https://www.opengrow.com/topic/44537...t/page__st__20*

This is why I was saying DON'T THROW OUT YOUR FULL SPECTRUM T5's QUITE YET! There is something about having the whole spectrum in there that the plants love. It makes sense, after all plants have only been growing under full spectrum light for the last 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.....n years right?

Here is what his buds look like under the 50% RED 660nm and 50% 2700K WHITE(Full spectrum), really really nice,


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## PetFlora (Feb 17, 2012)

Great news. Jeff has actually been working on a 660. I think it's safe to say it has now moved to the top of his to-do list. And yes, he is up to provide some free prototype bulbs. Time to suck up guys


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## BlueB (Feb 17, 2012)

After playing with it and observing, I decided to take the Kessil LEDs out of my T5 grow, since they are more of a "spot light" they do not blend well with the T5s. As I stated earlier(before being jumped on) I think these Kessil spot lights would be a better addition to a CMH or MH, since they are all a single point light source, and all penetrate the canopy really well.

Flora, I'm totally down to buy 50 of the 660nm tubes. Just give me a wholesale price so I know what I'm dealing with here. If Jeff ever gets a sample done, make sure to have him do a spectral analysis and make sure to post it here.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 17, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Great news. Jeff has actually been working on a 660. I think it's safe to say it has now moved to the top of his to-do list. And yes, he is up to provide some free prototype bulbs. Time to suck up guys


I don't give great head... but ok!.... 




Suck,suck,suck!​


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## falcon223 (Feb 17, 2012)

Hay Pet I want 3 bulbs for sure. If the price is right I will go 4.


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## falcon223 (Feb 17, 2012)

Ok I had to pop some seeds under my T5. So this the first time I tryed to go seed to full plant under 12/12. I have seen other grows
dun this way and they looked good. I dont have but 1 coal wave, and 1 red sun , that is kinda orang.

Anyway I got 3 femails already. And it is only been 3 weeks or 4.


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## falcon223 (Feb 17, 2012)

It is an 8 bulb fixture. with a mix of bulbs.


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## falcon223 (Feb 17, 2012)

I think the Tasmanian Devil likes it.


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 17, 2012)

If anyone is reading though this thread and is kinda new and havent really got a full grasp on the whole idea behind PAR specific Fluoros, I just spend about 4 hours total on 3 posts in the Club T5 thread for someone new who is starting off and was asking about bulb choice. Basically broke down most of the basics for newbies, explaining phosphors and PAR and all that. I know the regulars here are well versed in all that jazz, but if someone is new and cruising through, and needs a beginners course before going all in, check out these posts on the Club T5 thread. I didnt want to just Copy/Paste it all here cuz its mostly stuff we all know, but someone may have discovered this thread and not had the patience to read thru a few thousand posts. 

Anyway, T5 and PAR growing for beginners... (was in response to others questions so they're adressing them)



Undercover Cop said:


> post #1





Undercover Cop said:


> post #2





Undercover Cop said:


> post #3


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## PetFlora (Feb 17, 2012)

BlueB said:


> After playing with it and observing, I decided to take the Kessil LEDs out of my T5 grow, since they are more of a "spot light" they do not blend well with the T5s. As I stated earlier(before being jumped on) I think these Kessil spot lights would be a better addition to a CMH or MH, since they are all a single point light source, and all penetrate the canopy really well.
> 
> Flora, I'm totally down to buy 50 of the 660nm tubes. Just give me a wholesale price so I know what I'm dealing with here. If Jeff ever gets a sample done, make sure to have him do a spectral analysis and make sure to post it here.


I will run it by all you guys before finalizing anything. You are mos def on my short list for some prototypes!


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## hyroot (Feb 17, 2012)

im down for 4 and maybe 8 more if i add a 16 bulb. i might get an led and use both. still deciding. i just got hit with an unbelievable amount of shit i have to pay for. i love this time of year(sarcasm)


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## Calrt (Feb 17, 2012)

petflora said:


> great news. Jeff has actually been working on a 660. I think it's safe to say it has now moved to the top of his to-do list. And yes, he is up to provide some free prototype bulbs. Time to suck up guys :d


kick ass!!!!


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## AltarNation (Feb 18, 2012)

Pending price specifics I am in for anywhere between 4-16 bulbs probably...


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## kpmarine (Feb 18, 2012)

I would definitely be interested in a few 660's when I got some money together. If you're going to start growing, might as well do it the best you can.


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## PetFlora (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm going to ask this in a couple areas: *What is best nm mix for cloning?* Or asked another way- *to develop root*s?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 18, 2012)

Here's another quick update before I transfer these into the flower room tomorrow


Last week










This week


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## falcon223 (Feb 18, 2012)

hay Under, what fixture is that with duel bulb slots ? You do know what you are doing.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Feb 18, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> hay Under, what fixture is that with duel bulb slots ? You do know what you are doing.



Thanks falcon!
It's a Quantum Badboy


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## cjd (Feb 18, 2012)

Hi everyone I olnly posted a couple of times many pages ago but am in the process of putting my system together. I have been searching for a 660nm tube as well. Well I happened to meet the VP for a professional video audio lighting supply company at work today. They just happen to have a custom lighting manufacturing division, and he was down right excited when I explained the T5 growing to him. I should have some sort of information from him this week with minimums??? and pricing. The big guys buy from his company and they are legit. TV the movie studios etc. Once I get the information I will let everyone know. It might even come to be a product line for them, so there might be no minimum order for us.


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## pedro420 (Feb 18, 2012)

cjd said:


> Hi everyone I olnly posted a couple of times many pages ago but am in the process of putting my system together. I have been searching for a 660nm tube as well. Well I happened to meet the VP for a professional video audio lighting supply company at work today. They just happen to have a custom lighting manufacturing division, and he was down right excited when I explained the T5 growing to him. I should have some sort of information from him this week with minimums??? and pricing. The big guys buy from his company and they are legit. TV the movie studios etc. Once I get the information I will let everyone know. It might even come to be a product line for them, so there might be no minimum order for us.


That would be amazing to get I'm in the process of trying to find a 660nm bulb and it is almost impossible I'm looking forward to see if this is going to happin


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## mipainpatient (Feb 18, 2012)

if they ship online see if you can get the RIU thread peeps a discount coupon? sounds like you'll be giving them the idea for a new product line......


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 18, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> Here's another quick update before I transfer these into the flower room tomorrow...


Holy shit man, those look amazing. All are beautiful 9pt leaves!!! gorgeous man, you can tell they're healthy!


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## kpmarine (Feb 18, 2012)

cjd said:


> Hi everyone I olnly posted a couple of times many pages ago but am in the process of putting my system together. I have been searching for a 660nm tube as well. Well I happened to meet the VP for a professional video audio lighting supply company at work today. They just happen to have a custom lighting manufacturing division, and he was down right excited when I explained the T5 growing to him. I should have some sort of information from him this week with minimums??? and pricing. The big guys buy from his company and they are legit. TV the movie studios etc. Once I get the information I will let everyone know. It might even come to be a product line for them, so there might be no minimum order for us.


 Damn, everybody is making shit happen around here. Apparently I picked the right forum for learning how to grow, At this rate, ROI users are going to single-handedly change the T5 grow lamp market.


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## pedro420 (Feb 18, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Damn, everybody is making shit happen around here. Apparently I picked the right forum for learning how to grow, At this rate, ROI users are going to single-handedly change the T5 grow lamp market.


I net if we all stuck togather we could atleast get a realy good 660nm bulb


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## kpmarine (Feb 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I net if we all stuck togather we could atleast get a realy good 660nm bulb


With great collective spending power, comes great new bulbs!


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## kpmarine (Feb 18, 2012)

Learned a valuable lesson about LST today... Romulan is not as sturdy as GDP, the stem can break accordingly. In other news, got 5 new Romulan's clone-ifying. All the new lighting isn't due until tuesday though. Life is cruel.


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## PakaloloHui (Feb 18, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Learned a valuable lesson about LST today... Romulan is not as sturdy as GDP, the stem can break accordingly. In other news, got 5 new Romulan's clone-ifying. All the new lighting isn't due until tuesday though. Life is cruel.


Tape it up and she will heal.


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## pedro420 (Feb 18, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Learned a valuable lesson about LST today... Romulan is not as sturdy as GDP, the stem can break accordingly. In other news, got 5 new Romulan's clone-ifying. All the new lighting isn't due until tuesday though. Life is cruel.


I mad the same mistake when lsting my lemon skunk a branch came off I would have clones it but I didn't have the stuff yet but then the next day I got everything in the mail


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## kpmarine (Feb 18, 2012)

PakaloloHui said:


> Tape it up and she will heal.


 It completely snapped clean off. Didn't even bother, just cut it into some clones. Due to a series of issues out of my control, I've been vegging these under waaaayyyyy too little light, so I dont have high hopes for this one anyways. Maybe the chance to grow back under better light will help. Either way, I get more practice cloning.


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## kpmarine (Feb 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I mad the same mistake when lsting my lemon skunk a branch came off I would have clones it but I didn't have the stuff yet but then the next day I got everything in the mail


 If the 3 Alaskan Thunderfuck cuttings in the unrinsed Dr. pepper cans are any indication; I can root twice as fast in a can as the 45-spot Botanicare Aero-cloner I got. Or maybe I just got lucky.


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

I just use Coco plugs so I can plant then straight in the soil after roots form I'll be able to clone now once my autos get done in the next few weeks I'm going to clone my moms that are vvegging 

I still gotta findout where I'm gonna flower I'm running out of space in the house 

Damn I need to move away from the city


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

Hello again peeps im trying to keep up with the thread reading back posts. Undercover hello! Everyone I have an announcement!
I am tired of seeing everyone here not being able to grow to their potential due to limitation in the T5 bulb Tech. 
So in order to help out heres what I have done.
First my grow has been cancelled and heres why. 
I have taken several thousand dollars of my own cash and put it aside for the following project. 
[video=youtube;HHfOejlvVsY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHfOejlvVsY[/video]

I have been busy with a private contract to manufacture bulbs just for The T5 enthusiasts community!! MADE IN USA!!

Problem is I need preorders in order to meet my quota 500-1000 bulbs. 
Anyone remember that "Fiji Purple" graph which has been now cast aside as false? 
I have reached a manufacturer that will produce this and a far red bulb just for me!
These bulbs will be a secret formula and I will be patenting the formula and production process to protect my investment!
The two main bulbs will be 

Amazon Purple 420-451nm & 660nm
Red Devil 630-700nm ONLY* These will be the most expensive as the phosphors required are EXTREMELY $$$ 
Everest Blue a true FULL spectrum/multiphosphor bulb with that includes UV and FAR RED 

I have set up an Escrow dot com account for those interested please PM me I will send you more information.

Escrow dot com accepts paypal amex visa etc... this way all parties are covered incase something happens the monies will be returned.
I will be providing a pricing "estimate" through EBAY again PM me and I will send you to my store! 

Once everyone purchases the required minimum order I will package and reship the bulbs upon arrival, all purchases will be covered by Ebay and escrow dot com. AGAIN If your interested PM me and I wil send you more information on what you will be purchasing.


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## kpmarine (Feb 19, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Hello again peeps im trying to keep up with the thread reading back posts. Undercover hello! Everyone I have an announcement!
> I am tired of seeing everyone here not being able to grow to their potential due to limitation in the T5 bulb Tech.
> So in order to help out heres what I have done.
> First my grow has been cancelled and heres why.
> ...


Holy Shit!! I totally called this earlier today. Welcome back Prof.


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## falcon223 (Feb 19, 2012)

I don't see a PM hilight. How do you PM on here ???


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## PetFlora (Feb 19, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I net if we all stuck togather we could atleast get a realy good 660nm bulb


According to Jeff at UVL, once he pulls the trigger 5-7 weeks. I copied him the verbal commitments which is ~ 1/2 what he needs. Hopefully, he sees the benefit of going forward ASAP. 

_*(EDIT) *__So now I see *Prof* has a bulb thing going. Awesome! Not that it's a him or me thing, but in fairness to UVL, I need to know which direction you guys who verbally committed to UVL 660s want to go* now.* UVL's 660 minimum is 288 bulbs. Seems like we could pull that off a lot faster than 500-1000, no? _


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## PetFlora (Feb 19, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> With great collective spending power, comes great new bulbs!


Sort of. In the case with UVL, horticulture hasn't been their focus, but I think I really opened his eyes when I gave him a brief tutorial of our needs. I think any company is looking for ways to keep the bottom line healthy, and WE present a whole new, relatively untapped market


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## PetFlora (Feb 19, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Learned a valuable lesson about LST today... Romulan is not as sturdy as GDP, the stem can break accordingly. In other news, got 5 new Romulan's clone-ifying. All the new lighting isn't due until tuesday though. Life is cruel.


Fear not. Just support the stems above the snap and they will grow fine.


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## AltarNation (Feb 19, 2012)

BTW guys I got those 15w spotlight 660nms and they're so weak I can barely see any shift at all under the T5 lighting competition... would need like 8 of these to come anywhere near having a relevant effect on the red blue ratio. Back they go.

Let's get those 660nm bulbs goin...


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## falcon223 (Feb 19, 2012)

I'm still in for 4 bulbs. OK?? I will still probably through some money the professors way to. 
This could be a ground floor opportunity.


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## tehshyt (Feb 19, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> According to Jeff at UVL, once he pulls the trigger 5-7 weeks. I copied him the verbal commitments which is ~ 1/2 what he needs. Hopefully, he sees the benefit of going forward ASAP.
> 
> _*(EDIT) *__So now I see *Prof* has a bulb thing going. Awesome! Not that it's a him or me thing, but in fairness to UVL, I need to know which direction you guys who verbally committed to UVL 660s want to go* now.* UVL's 660 minimum is 288 bulbs. Seems like we could pull that off a lot faster than 500-1000, no? _


288 is certainly going to be a lot easier to obtain than 500. Do we have anyway of knowing what the spectrum of these 660 bulbs will look like?
Is 660 going to be the only peak?


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## Calrt (Feb 19, 2012)

I am going to stay with 15-20 from PetFlora. I might do another 5 or so from the Prof too. Just need some good 660!


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## kpmarine (Feb 19, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Sort of. In the case with UVL, horticulture hasn't been their focus, but I think I really opened his eyes when I gave him a brief tutorial of our needs. I think any company is looking for ways to keep the bottom line healthy, and WE present a whole new, relatively untapped market


 We're the perfect market too, all but throwing our money at them like this. One question though, I see UVL is based in the US, but do they make their bulbs here?


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## BlueB (Feb 19, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Forget the 630nm spectrum. There is plenty of it in all the other T5 bulbs including cheapo bloom bulbs. Anyway the correct proportions for 630nm to 660nm is 25%/75%.
> 
> That means 25% 630 and 75% 660nm. What we need is a 660nm ONLY bulb! I'm sure the red phosphor used to make the 660nm spectrum would emit enough of the 630nm spectrum anyway.


I'm really glad that people are starting to see the light and are taking the initiative to make this happen for all of us. If I knew some folk in the lighting industry I would have been on this a long time ago. It will be so nice to turn these precious watts into actual super effective growing power! It's not done yet though. No one knows if a 660nm red phosphor bulb will even work. I like the idea of protecting the customer through ebay while keeping their confidential information private. It would be nice to include everyone that has contributed to the birth of the idea in the profits somehow if this 660nm bulb idea gets huge. Prof, have you considered any kind of stock investment type of opportunity yet? This would produce the funds to get things going. I think it's a lot more expensive than people realize, getting a new product going. Lots of testing, re-testing, etc. The "right" formula needs to be unveiled to make a worthy product. If 2 or even 3 companies started to produce these 660nm only bulbs, I see it as a good thing. Competition creates evolution in product and also makes the price go down. Keep up the good work everyone and lets keep this ball rolling! Better yet, let's makes these bulb companies aware of each other ahead of time and maybe we can get UVL or "profs company" to get the ball rolling even faster.


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> According to Jeff at UVL, once he pulls the trigger 5-7 weeks. I copied him the verbal commitments which is ~ 1/2 what he needs. Hopefully, he sees the benefit of going forward ASAP.
> 
> _*(EDIT) *__So now I see *Prof* has a bulb thing going. Awesome! Not that it's a him or me thing, but in fairness to UVL, I need to know which direction you guys who verbally committed to UVL 660s want to go* now.* UVL's 660 minimum is 288 bulbs. Seems like we could pull that off a lot faster than 500-1000, no? _


I would see uvl getting the required 288 faster than the prof can get 500 

I do realy like the bulb choices the prof has tho they seem to be rite were we want them to be 


Also I was looking around Lastnite and was wondering about these 
Ati - purple plus 
Ati - pro color 

Has anyone here used these bulbs they are German made but can we use them in our fixtures if they are as good as the spd says they are (haven't seen one but the ones on the site and google ) does nebody have any information on these


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## kpmarine (Feb 19, 2012)

I thought the pro color was discontinued?


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## AltarNation (Feb 19, 2012)

With all due respect to Pr0f and his new project, I would still probably go forward towards the UVL goal just because it'd be considerably easier to get to 288 just with this thread's users...? Would be interested in putting in towards pr0f's as well. 

At this point neither avenue has hashed out pricing for a 660nm bulb... and neither can quote a time frame for any sort of deliverability... so as a consumer, I have to say, wherever I can put my money that will get me 660nm bulbs the soonest, is where I want to put my money... but I would also be interested in helping get a new business off the ground if possible, so I'd probably put some money into both avenues.

Tentatively, if pricing is reasonable, I'd be willing to put in for 10-20 660nm bulbs towards whichever order can put bulbs in my hands first, though.


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I thought the pro color was discontinued?


Well I was looking around and the page was saying something like it's a new pro color bulb and it didn't specify if it was discontinued or not the page says out of stock but I'm interested to know if they are discontinued or if they are going to put out more 


I'm with altar tho
I would like to help a buisness get off the ground and help someone out but st the same time I would rather go with the buisness that would put the bulbs in my hands faster 
I don't exactly have money to be throwing around but I would go with the prof bulb line because they seem to be at the rite spikes in nm and he is trying to make a whole line for us to use


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 19, 2012)

Pro-colors are discontinued but are still available in existing stock in 2ft . compare them to roseates tho  I posted SPDs for both in that long club T5 thread with links posted here earlier


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## PetFlora (Feb 19, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> We're the perfect market too, all but throwing our money at them like this. One question though, I see UVL is based in the US, but do they make their bulbs here?



I don't think so


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## kpmarine (Feb 19, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I don't think so


Not a deciding factor at the outset necessarily; but long term, I'd much rather buy from a place that's creating jobs in my country.


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## tehshyt (Feb 19, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> According to Jeff at UVL, once he pulls the trigger 5-7 weeks. I copied him the verbal commitments which is ~ 1/2 what he needs. Hopefully, he sees the benefit of going forward ASAP.
> 
> _*(EDIT) *__So now I see *Prof* has a bulb thing going. Awesome! Not that it's a him or me thing, but in fairness to UVL, I need to know which direction you guys who verbally committed to UVL 660s want to go* now.* UVL's 660 minimum is 288 bulbs. Seems like we could pull that off a lot faster than 500-1000, no? _



PetFlora It looks like a lot of people are down to make this happen. You put this into action, so let us know exactly what we need to do to make this happen


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## asdmo (Feb 19, 2012)

I want to thank both pr0f and pet for putting their effort into their new projects! Im willing to put into this experiment also just need to wait for the included information like pricing shipping ect. hopefully this could really happen soon, im super excited!


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## rollinbud (Feb 19, 2012)

Very nice man, those buds are killer!


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

I'm excited to see the prices and info on them also


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 19, 2012)

Kiss The Cook!!!


a few tiny 'nanners but noooo seeds


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

Heres a teaser  these bulbs are already in the works  were looking at the prototype exclusive AMAZON PURPLE 420+451&660nm bulb.. say hello to fuji purple friends


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

i posted the wrong bulb pic  OOPS!


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Heres a teaser  these bulbs are already in the works  were looking at the prototype exclusive AMAZON PURPLE 420+451&660nm bulb.. say hello to fuji purple friends
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 19, 2012)

No pics showed professuer


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

my apologies heres a pic for everyone!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Feb 19, 2012)

What is what?


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 19, 2012)

OOOHH Pretty! Here it is bigger!!!


pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 2069579
> my apologies heres a pic for everyone!


Nice!!! looks like a T8, or 36" t5?? just looks a little thick for 4ft t5.


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

It does look a lil thick for a 4ft 

But looks like it has a nice blend of color - is there any chance of getting a spd or nething


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

Thats the prototype and yes its a T8 this is just to get the color right...
heres a SPD to get ya drooling


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

anyone wanna see the far red?


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## asdmo (Feb 19, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Thats the prototype and yes its a T8 this is just to get the color right...
> heres a SPD to get ya drooling
> View attachment 2069624


OMGAH SPD PORN! Im going to take my laptop to the bathroom with some lotion, ill brb!


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 19, 2012)

nice Nice NICE NICE!!!niceNicE!


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## kpmarine (Feb 19, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> OOOHH Pretty! Here it is bigger!!!
> 
> 
> Nice!!! looks like a T8, or 36" t5?? just looks a little thick for 4ft t5.



T5, T8, and T12 are all standardised diameter. The number in their name is that diameter in 8th's of an inch. i.e. T5's are 5/8", and so on. Or at least, that's how one of the lighting companies broke it down. They may have been oversimplifying to avoid questions though.


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

hardest part is to convince manufacturer it will be worth it to buy 2k$ in phosphors for a 1K$ order LOL! the far red phosphor is quite expensive @ $195/Kilo 10Kilo minimum.... :-/


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

That is some crazy prices

Hopefully something works out and we can get that beloved 660 nm bulb we all are seeking


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## pr0fesseur (Feb 19, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> That is some crazy prices
> 
> Hopefully something works out and we can get that beloved 660 nm bulb we all are seeking


I am committed to getting you guys the perfect bulb.. i will eat some cost up front knowing that in time i will be able to break even with my first order  Once i open my ebay store im sure the bulbs will sell out!


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## pedro420 (Feb 19, 2012)

If the Ebay store is going to have the bulbs you listed and if they are a decent price I will difinatly order some


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## Undercover Cop (Feb 19, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> T5, T8, and T12 are all standardised diameter. The number in their name is that diameter in 8th's of an inch. i.e. T5's are 5/8", and so on. Or at least, that's how one of the lighting companies broke it down. They may have been oversimplifying to avoid questions though.


Nope thats right. if you can find some T2 aquarium bulbs (1/4") they blow T5 away for efficiency, but they're limited to 18" max... perfect for a clone box/moms.

I asked because it seemed abit thicker than a T5, and he said it was indeed a T8 (prob easier to make a proto with)


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## kpmarine (Feb 19, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Nope thats right. if you can find some T2 aquarium bulbs (1/4") they blow T5 away for efficiency, but they're limited to 18" max... perfect for a clone box/moms.
> 
> I asked because it seemed abit thicker than a T5, and he said it was indeed a T8 (prob easier to make a proto with)


Oh, I misunderstood. I thought you were asking if it was an unusually thick T5. My apologies, I should have known you would know better than that. lol


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## BlueB (Feb 19, 2012)

T8s are more efficient anyway, they don't even get hot to the touch.


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## BlueB (Feb 19, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Thats the prototype and yes its a T8 this is just to get the color right...
> heres a SPD to get ya drooling
> View attachment 2069624


thats one crazy looking photo shopped spd graph, it really does look like the perfect spectrum, make sure your company gets those end caps glued on the right way!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## kpmarine (Feb 20, 2012)

BlueB said:


> T8s are more efficient anyway, they don't even get hot to the touch.


On the contrary sir. They cost more than their increased efficiency warrants though. I assume due to the specialised market.

Courtesy of http://lightingsolutions.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25&Itemid=26

4. Why is T5 the best and how does that apply?
There are several different factors that determine levels of efficiency. Quality of light measured in CRI (Colour Rendering Index), quantity of light measured in LPW (Lumens per Watt) and CU (Co-efficiency of utilization.) The numbers being used for CU are general for those used in the low level (12 feet and under) multi-residential environment so there can be fluctuations.

CRI levels:LPW levels:CU (Generally):T12 = 62CRIT12 = 78LPWT12 = .46CUT8 = 85CRIT8 = 92LPWT8 = .76CUT5 = 85CRIT5 = 103LPWT5 = .90CU
 Considering these general factors, it is obvious that T5 is the best. But, how much better? With all factors weighed equally, a general presumption can be made, that:


a. T8 is 40% more efficient than T12.
b. T5 is 51% more efficient than T12.


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## BlueB (Feb 20, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> I am committed to getting you guys the perfect bulb.. i will eat some cost up front knowing that in time i will be able to break even with my first order  Once i open my ebay store im sure the bulbs will sell out!


here is the perfect vase for your perfect blub, might not work with the 4 footers though,


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## BlueB (Feb 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> On the contrary sir. They cost more than their increased efficiency warrants though. I assume due to the specialised market.
> 
> Courtesy of http://lightingsolutions.ca/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=25&Itemid=26
> 
> ...


they dont heat up at all dude!!!!!!!!!!


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## kpmarine (Feb 20, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> hardest part is to convince manufacturer it will be worth it to buy 2k$ in phosphors for a 1K$ order LOL! the far red phosphor is quite expensive @ $195/Kilo 10Kilo minimum.... :-/


 Have you contacted the other T5 thread? Maybe they would be interested. Any thoughts on that undercover? I know you were posting over there recently.


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## kpmarine (Feb 20, 2012)

BlueB said:


> they dont heat up at all dude!!!!!!!!!!


 Well, reasonably a 4' long T8 is going to put off less heat. It puts off less light and has almost twice the surface area. While only consuming a little more energy. Twice the surface area means twice the heat dispersion area in theory.


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## kpmarine (Feb 20, 2012)

There may have been one and I forgot it (I read most of this thread in one stretch.), but has anyone applied this method to autoflowers? I know they have fairly respectable yields from other methods, so I'm wondering if there have been positive results. Seeing as light maximisation is so important to these plants given their limited growth cycle.


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## Kite High (Feb 20, 2012)

since you seem intent on covering these supposed important spectrums why do I see no source for uva-uvb and far red?? All proven to enhance cannabis potency and enable cannabinoid profile ratio manipulation?


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## kpmarine (Feb 20, 2012)

Kite High said:


> since you seem intent on covering these supposed important spectrums why do I see no source for uva-uvb and far red?? All proven to enhance cannabis potency and enable cannabinoid profile ratio manipulation?


Post #2974 and #2975 I think it was when i just checked. They're in the works. If you read the more recent posts, you'd see it was being worked on. Thanks to a desire and the tentative interest of a couple light manufacturers. I believe there's spectrograms and a picture of the prototype even. Give 'er a look.


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## AltarNation (Feb 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Have you contacted the other T5 thread? Maybe they would be interested. Any thoughts on that undercover? I know you were posting over there recently.


This.

Also, can't wait to hear some price estimates per bulb, that will be a good day.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 16, 2012)

So what, we lost a months worth of posts?


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## Calrt (Mar 16, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> So what, we lost a months worth of posts?


what happened?


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## A.Green.Monster (Mar 16, 2012)

Some one hacked the site. Looks like the last time they backed it up was a month ago, thus the lost posts.


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## AltarNation (Mar 16, 2012)

Fuck.

Well, this makes me feel better about not posting my updates the other day. I guess I'll start up a new grow journal and get it goin' again.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 16, 2012)

A.Green.Monster said:


> Some one hacked the site. Looks like the last time they backed it up was a month ago, thus the lost posts.



Actually they were doing a server update and possibly migration late last night for hours and someone fucked up. It happens very regularly when people decide to update databases. Especiaqlly when the person doing it doesn't have much knowledge of msql databases and vBulletin.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 16, 2012)

I feel like it's GroundHog Day. So many good posts in the past month.


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## kpmarine (Mar 16, 2012)

Damn, 33 pages of mostly useful info down the tubes.


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## AltarNation (Mar 16, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Damn, 33 pages of mostly useful info down the tubes.


Yep. 'salright, we'll recover... the worst part is we don't know what we lost, lol. God knows my memory doesn't remember shit, nevermind all the stuff I posted over the last 33 pages


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## kpmarine (Mar 16, 2012)

I know, its not that we can't relearn it, I just entirely forgot what it is I was supposed to learn. lol


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## kpmarine (Mar 16, 2012)

Am I the only one missing the ability to "like" things?


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## AltarNation (Mar 16, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Am I the only one missing the ability to "like" things?



No... =( I hope they get it back up soon. It's such an integral part of the experience in a way. I know it's just a silly button like facebook or whatever, but the truth is that when you expect it to be there and it's not, well... you end up contributing and receiving a lot less feedback overall. Personally, I use the like system as an indicator that a thread has progressed and there might be a response to my post... so it's pretty annoying not having it, as I'm now having to manually find my way into any thread I posted in that i didn't subscribe... bah.

Gimme back my likes, RIU. Don't make me get the god damn pitchforks again.


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## PetFlora (Mar 17, 2012)

Say-La-Vee. I'll kick it off with my new grow using my Indica dom (I hope) BK-1 cross. This is from the mother that I posted amazing growth pics of from my first T5 experiment. 

Seeds cracked (with tap roots) in 24 hours, then placed in Super Starter Cubes. Once tap roots broke through, transferred to my DIY bubbler for 2 weeks, under a UFO 90 + 2 cool white CFLs and a 26 watt Repti-Glo CFL. A few days ago I added a warm white LED (should have done that from the get go). All grew straight and strong (~ 3" in < 2 weeks). 

Yesterday I moved them into my HPA pod. Starting with 6 bulbs. In order:

1. Quantum Grow
2. ATI Special Blue Actinic 
3. Coral Wave
4. Quantum Grow
5. UVL Red Life
6. UVL AquaSun

Photos shortly.



Plants are staggered in the HPA pod due to eventual development of large root mass (think cheerleader pompoms). Plus, hpa requires lots of air space around each root system for the mist to circulate before falling. HPA can be the most efficient grow method, but you have to know what you are doing: this being my 5th grow, I think I have all the kinks worked out. It should be very exciting combining HPA with aquarium HO T5 bulbs. 

The pump is sitting in a makeshift placeholder due to the fact that I keep moving pods in/out. Also, this frame was originally built to run A/B light tests. Fortunately, it is the right size for a 2 X 4 Quantum fixture. Most HPA growers use a accumulator + solenoids + pressure switches. Not me. I like to KISS. My results may not be quite up to their fanatical standards but to me it's pretty close, much better than any other aero method. That said, I am a big fan of F & D, especially using my technique (Air Pots and lava rock), Here's 2 photos.

The PVC was an experiment (Bellagio Technique). It had a bunch of holes to super oxygenate the nutes as they enter the tub. The high walls were necessary to catch the splash, but also act to keep the environment humid, ala rain forest. This was the basic set up I used to grow BK -1


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## A.Green.Monster (Mar 17, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Actually they were doing a server update and possibly migration late last night for hours and someone fucked up. It happens very regularly when people decide to update databases. Especiaqlly when the person doing it doesn't have much knowledge of msql databases and vBulletin.


Actually it was an attack

https://www.rollitup.org/support/513110-loss-data.html


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## 48martin (Mar 17, 2012)

looking good PF.


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## cjd (Mar 18, 2012)

Wasn't someone stomping their feet because they didn't feel like they were receiving enough attention? I am not sure of the screen name but it was a day or two before the data disappeared. All I remember is that they showed up about three months ago and someone called them out for being one poster with multiple screen names.


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## Scabbio (Mar 18, 2012)

Thank you OP! 
My plant is looking beefy dark green, and I credit the chlorophyll density to the lights that you put me onto.
I am now using two actinic, two far reds, with a 150w HPS for one plant. I was using 6500's. 
She is GORGEOUS.
This alone made joining RIU worth it.
Keep up the good work!

Scabbers


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## AltarNation (Mar 18, 2012)

Wow, this is neat. Haha. Not only am I more in touch with immediately meeting my plants' needs as they are presented, but I can actually see the direct evidence of each flowering nute addition as I add them... I swear my buds doubled in size over the last two days, haha.

Gonna take some good pics tonight hopefully... losing some leaves because I'm constantly fighting an N deficiency but can definitely see the gains on the buds too... kind of unsure as which was to go with feedings... don't really want to slow the bud development by adding veg nutes but also don't want to lose too many leaves... guess I'll just have to add a little veg fertilizer with ever other feeding for now...


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## falcon223 (Mar 18, 2012)

Hay, A.N. that is what I do. I add N. about every week.


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## pedro420 (Mar 18, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Wow, this is neat. Haha. Not only am I more in touch with immediately meeting my plants' needs as they are presented, but I can actually see the direct evidence of each flowering nute addition as I add them... I swear my buds doubled in size over the last two days, haha.
> 
> Gonna take some good pics tonight hopefully... losing some leaves because I'm constantly fighting an N deficiency but can definitely see the gains on the buds too... kind of unsure as which was to go with feedings... don't really want to slow the bud development by adding veg nutes but also don't want to lose too many leaves... guess I'll just have to add a little veg fertilizer with ever other feeding for now...


I sibylline if you thought about this yet but add some worm castings to the toped inch or so of soil I do it once or twice during flower and it keeps the n up


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## AltarNation (Mar 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I sibylline if you thought about this yet but add some worm castings to the toped inch or so of soil I do it once or twice during flower and it keeps the n up


Not a bad idea at all, thanks man. I'll see if I can get a bag in town. Was planning to get some to make my own soil mix soon anyway so I'm due for a trip to the store.


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## pedro420 (Mar 18, 2012)

Well I'm glad to help I mix it in the top few inches when I first mix my soil then when I switch them to flower I redo the top few inches with anouther dose of the castings then after about a month to a month and a half I add anouther dose then they get all the outher nutes from guano tea every outher watering or every 2 waterings

I'mWorking onn makeing a tea that has realy good numbers for all 3 (n-p-k) and I use karma for all the lil goodies they need


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 18, 2012)

Wow, I have no idea where I was when I last updated, well here's where I am now...

Flowering Box, 16 tubes total (4+8+4, FS/Roseate/CoralWave/FS - PlantGrow/RedSun/CoralWave/FS/PlantGrow/CoralWave/RedSun/FS - FS/CoralWave/Roseate/FS)
5 plants total, 2 small 12/12 from seed'ers, imposter BlueCheese (BlewCheez) sativa, FCJ and BBG.
View attachment 2076045
View attachment 2076047View attachment 2076049
View attachment 2076053 

Veg box, 7 tubes total (6bulb Hydrofarm, FloraSun/BlueWave/FS/BW/FS/BW +1 ReefWave sidelight) 6 newly rooted FCJ clones and my almost ripe AutoHobbit
 View attachment 2076052


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## PetFlora (Mar 19, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Wow, this is neat. Haha. Not only am I more in touch with immediately meeting my plants' needs as they are presented, but I can actually see the direct evidence of each flowering nute addition as I add them... I swear my buds doubled in size over the last two days, haha.
> 
> Gonna take some good pics tonight hopefully... losing some leaves because I'm constantly fighting an N deficiency but can definitely see the gains on the buds too... kind of unsure as which was to go with feedings... don't really want to slow the bud development by adding veg nutes but also don't want to lose too many leaves... guess I'll just have to add a little veg fertilizer with ever other feeding for now...


Losing leaves could be N *lock out* due to ratios of PK being too high. They can do more harm than good. NPK are the same products for both veg and flower, only the ratios change, but _should not change dramatically-_ as the so called bloom boosters would suggest. Mix fresh nutes but do not add much (if any) PK boosters.


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## AltarNation (Mar 19, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Losing leaves could be N *lock out* due to ratios of PK being too high. They can do more harm than good. NPK are the same products for both veg and flower, only the ratios change, but _should not change dramatically-_ as the so called bloom boosters would suggest. Mix fresh nutes but do not add much (if any) PK boosters.


Eh... maybe... I will keep it in mind. Not sure that's right though because i can see pretty obvious improvements with each N dose.


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## AltarNation (Mar 19, 2012)

Sup all. My plants are absolutely thriving in those air pots. But... I'm noticing that the 5 airpots I have now barely fit along the light length with their drip trays... I can pull the drip trays and tighten them all in if I make a big drip pan for the whole stretch... but it's gonna be tight, so I'm considering raising the bulbs a little more to give a little more footprint as the canopy increases.

My question is this... if I back the fixture off 8-12" what exactly happens to the growth? I mean, does growth just slow, or is it going to stretch to find the light? Because I want to avoid unnecessary stretching at all costs but also would like to get a little more footprint length out of it.

I've got my new airpots too, which are a bit bigger diameter, so I'm not sure how that's going to work if I have five down the lenght of the 48" fixture.

10.25" on each air pot so even if I have them right up against each other (would rather give them breathing room) I'd still exceed the 48" length.

So I'm considering some options... on one hand I could kind of stagger them back and forth at an angle so that I get more length out of it (major benefit of round containers) but I would definitely then once again have to have a higher light so I could get a better footprint out of it for now.

That is just for veg... for flowering the setup will have a second fixture hitting it from the other side to accomodate the extra width.

Anyway, I want to hear from those of you who run PAR T5's at a greater distance, 6-12" maybe? You don't get any stretch with that set up I'm hoping...? Can you describe the difference you've seen between having it at the farther end of the spectrum (ie, 6-12") versus having them in tight? (ie, 1-3")

Got some pics I'll put up tonight when i can get at my laptop... I think I'm going to invest in a flood light for photo-taking, haha. I keep trying to take good shots but when I look at 'em later they don't seem worth while. Definitely need to get some white light in there, preferably something stronger than a CFL... just while I'm photographing.


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## AltarNation (Mar 19, 2012)

Also considering grabbing an indagrow 420 later this year and using it as a top light with tons of T5 sidelights in a vertical T5 setup. But that subject, I suppose, is for another thread...


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## omgdatsik (Mar 19, 2012)

Hey guys I contacted my stockist about the badboy and he said he didnt have that specific model but did stock T5's. Is there a difference in the out put between models? I tried to read all the pages but it's taking so long  Would appreciate any help.


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## 48martin (Mar 19, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Sup all. My plants are absolutely thriving in those air pots. But... I'm noticing that the 5 airpots I have now barely fit along the light length with their drip trays...


I just started using the airpots also would agree they are awesome. A little bulky but the drainage cant be beat.

Thank you Prof. for turning me on to these pots!


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 19, 2012)

Completely unrelated.... I made some pretty good budder recently, took a few days alternating slowly heating the butter/bud for about 2hrs in a small pot, then directly into the freezer where it would stay until I had another two hours free to tend it while it slowly thawed and warmed again. I basically warmed/froze it about 5 times (I was in no hurry) then strained it a few times... Good budder. nothing special. 
But I wanted to share a way Ive come to dose with it... I was reading about the traditional Indian Bhang Lassi drink, which is a warm milk concoction where the milkfat absorbs the THC and is the medium, then its mixed with different spices and sugar for flavor. Well I didnt have any buds to mash into milk. 
So I tried this... about 3 fingers (1.5-2") worth of whole milk in a glass. Warm it up (I nuke it for 30secs) Add a tea-table spoon worth of sugar, and any other flavorings to make it very sweet. Ive been adding strawberry pancake syrup, but Im sure hot cocoa or hersheys syrup would work well too. Mix well. make sure its still warm, and tastes very sweet




Add one tea-table spoon of budder and mix well. The budder will melt but will still float ontop of the milk since they wont mix. The milk is basically a very delicious couter to the kinda funky taste of straight budder. But you can kick this back in 2-3 gulps, it tastes fantastic, when I use strawberry syrup, it basically tastes like a slightly buttery strawberry milkshake. But since the budder floats on top, thats all you will be able to smell when you drink it. Im not a fan of the green smell of budder so its a little off-putting to me, but it tastes good, and is alot easier than having to cook something up to use budder. takes less than 2 minutes to get a good solid dose, nothing easier except to take a straight spoonful.


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 19, 2012)

omgdatsik said:


> Hey guys I contacted my stockist about the badboy and he said he didnt have that specific model but did stock T5's. Is there a difference in the out put between models? I tried to read all the pages but it's taking so long  Would appreciate any help.


T5HO will be the standard. The do make NO (normal output) but I rarely see them anywhwere. Do the math for whatever fixture you're looking at. Divide the total watts advertized by the number of bulbs. T5HO 4ft tubes run at 54w. If its 432w and 8 bulbs (432/8=54w per bulb) Some ballasts are VHO (Very High Output=80w-48") but they're more expensive and you'll know if its a VHO fixture. Odds are, it'll be T5HO if someone says "t5" but to be sure, just ask what watts it uses/requires. 4ft=54w 2ft=24w ea.


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## falcon223 (Mar 20, 2012)

I have my T5, about 16" in. A way, and withe the bulbs we are using , there is no stretch.


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## AltarNation (Mar 20, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> I have my T5, about 16" in. A way, and withe the bulbs we are using , there is no stretch.


Wow, even at 16"? That's good to know. Thanks man.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 20, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> I have my T5, about 16" in. A way, and withe the bulbs we are using , there is no stretch.


Mind sharing your bulb configuration with us??????


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## falcon223 (Mar 21, 2012)

I had so much trouble with the red suns that I had to use what ever I could find. 
I think I have, 2 red waves,3 Coral waves, 1 10,000K, 2 Fiji purples. I think.


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 21, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> I had so much trouble with the red suns that I had to use what ever I could find.
> I think I have, 2 red waves,3 Coral waves, 1 10,000K, 2 Fiji purples. I think.


Thanks..............be safe/happy growing


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## PetFlora (Mar 21, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Eh... maybe... I will keep it in mind. Not sure that's right though because i can see pretty obvious improvements with each N dose.


Duh. By increasing the N you are overcoming the lock out due to too much ratio of PK.


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## AltarNation (Mar 21, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Duh. By increasing the N you are overcoming the lock out due to too much ratio of PK.


No need for the sarcasm. Like I said I am also feeding extremely light and had only done ONE flowering feeding so far.

I was under the impression that "nute lockout" meant that I had overfed and the salts in the nutes had built up and needed to be flushed. Perhaps i misunderstood what you meant.


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## AltarNation (Mar 21, 2012)

I decided to take the genetics plunge with sannies. I got a nice mix.. Kolossus, and the indica mix which includes Herijuana, Anesthesia, and Jackberry F2...


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 21, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I decided to take the genetics plunge with sannies. I got a nice mix.. Kolossus, and the indica mix which includes Herijuana, Anesthesia, and Jackberry F2...


Nice strains you got there................congrats..


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## falcon223 (Mar 21, 2012)

Hay,,A.N. Where you get those seeds?? I never heard of sannies. 

Did you say you used fox farm nutes, I think before the hack or crash thing ?? 
I am using the 3 soled ones. And earth juice, and I mix my Owen soil. Never tried the air pots. Looks good to go.


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## AltarNation (Mar 22, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Nice strains you got there................congrats..


Thanks man... happy to finally be getting some real genetics. Worked with all bag seed so far.


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## AltarNation (Mar 22, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Hay,,A.N. Where you get those seeds?? I never heard of sannies.
> 
> Did you say you used fox farm nutes, I think before the hack or crash thing ??
> I am using the 3 soled ones. And earth juice, and I mix my Owen soil. Never tried the air pots. Looks good to go.


Hey mang,

Sannies is rumored to be one of the best places to get seeds at this point... hes suppose to be producing some pretty high quality genetics. Not as many freebies thrown in as attitude does but better customer service from what I've read... (heard attitude does not "support" their seeds because they sell them for heirloom collecting technically and don't care if your seeds come cracked or whether or not they sprout--On the other hand, Sannies will send replacements) Also, I was reading 6-day turn around for orders to the US which seemed nice.

Here's a good thread on Sannies:

https://www.rollitup.org/seedbank-reviews/480129-sannies-shop-review.html

Another:

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/511862-sannies.html

Here's the site:

http://www.sanniesshop.com/

His strains look like quality and are actually in stock for the most part. Seems like every time I find a strain I like on attitude it's out of stock!

--

Also, yes, I use FF liquid and solid trios. Not very happy with them though. They'll do for now until I can get something better lined up I guess. Probably will switch to a new nute line and/or a custom soil mix for my new seeds.


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## PetFlora (Mar 22, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> No need for the sarcasm. Like I said I am also feeding extremely light and had only done ONE flowering feeding so far.
> 
> I was under the impression that "nute lockout" meant that I had overfed and the salts in the nutes had built up and needed to be flushed. Perhaps i misunderstood what you meant.


Sorry, it was meant in sarcastic fun. Believe me, I have had, and continue to have DUH/DOH moments


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## C.Indica (Mar 22, 2012)

I'm out of here, great info.
I might review it now and again,
but I'm moving over to ICMag..
Thanks for the information!

& For a 2 Tube 2' T5 fixture,
only being used to suspend Bonsai Mothers,
and pre-flower vegging clones,

Which bulb should I mix with my 6500k tube?


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## AltarNation (Mar 22, 2012)

Hey guys... my scrogged ladies are plumping up slowly and my seedlings have been vegging in airpots for one month now.

My scrog canopies are atrocious... learned my lesson in scrogging too late. But, the buds are growing. This is four weeks in... probably more like five technically but I stunted the hell out of them scrogging them too late. They look kind of crappy and I'm crossing my fingers that they fill out a good bit:




These, on the other hand, are my pride and joy, lol. These are my "surprise seedlings" that were produced from my favorite bagseed plant which happened to overmature and end up producing a handful of seeds during it's last burst of bud development after I partial-harvested most of it.

Here they are right after transplant from the solo cups they (almost) started in, one month ago:


And here they are after one month in airpots! Experimenting with varying degrees of fimming... one is unfimmed because she was transplanted a tad too and I wanted to catch her up. Then three of them have been fimmed once. And one, which really outpaced the others (future mother I think, haha):

Fimmed once:


Unfimmed because she was lagging behind and I was trying to even 'em out. Really a pretty plant. Producing some big fan leaves.:


These were fimmed once as well:


Here's my racehorse/future mother... grew so fast she singed her giant wingspan on the light. She has been fimmed twice to slow growth to allow the canopy to stay even. And because it's fun to play. Haha:


Family shot:



Sorry for the junk lighting... still haven't come up with a decent bright light to move around for photos...


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## Psytranceorgy (Mar 22, 2012)

/like ^^^^^


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## falcon223 (Mar 22, 2012)

Altar it looks like your nuts are working. I like the frosty stuff. Some of thoughs look real frossty. I will look at some of the seeds in your post. I need some new seeds. 

I would be willing to send you some of my seeds. They are my Owen cross, of black queen, and cluster bomb. I have plenty.

I will try to post a pic latter.


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## AltarNation (Mar 22, 2012)

Yes, the nutes do work, they're just really easy to mis-dose and they get the medium all clogged with salts, which sucks. I haven't done a full flush once yet on these ladies, as I haven't been feeding liquid nutes long at all...they were transplanted right before they went into 12/12 (another fail on my part, they should have been given more time to root out) so they had some fresh soil to feed on for a while... I flushed my last batch like 4-5 times because I kept fucking up the feeds. It's mostly my fault, but I would rather work with something a little more forgiving!


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## AltarNation (Mar 22, 2012)

Likes don't work anymore but rep still does  wink wink

lulz


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## Psytranceorgy (Mar 22, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Likes don't work anymore but rep still does  wink wink
> 
> lulz


good point... +rep =D


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## MurshDawg (Mar 22, 2012)

It's been a while, PAR t5 gang! I have a little update to give you guys. I have three big girls and 6 more in a SOGgy e&f under 8 bulbs. I am using 2 UVL 454, 2 coralife 420 actinic, 2 red life bulbs, and 2 3000k spectralux. I am blooming white widow, cheese, lsd, and blue dream. The big girls are in week 2 and the sogs are week 1.


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## AltarNation (Mar 22, 2012)

MurshDawg said:


> It's been a while, PAR t5 gang! I have a little update to give you guys. I have three big girls and 6 more in a SOGgy e&f under 8 bulbs. I am using 2 UVL 454, 2 coralife 420 actinic, 2 red life bulbs, and 2 3000k spectralux. I am blooming white widow, cheese, lsd, and blue dream. The big girls are in week 2 and the sogs are week 1.


Lookin good Mursh...


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## falcon223 (Mar 22, 2012)

Looks good mursh. 
Alter, I trans plant at several stages, and I just don't have any trouble. Just comm, down. Most of the time it because of a mistake. 
You will go Farr. It will fall in to place soon. Nice pics, Thanks.


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## PetFlora (Mar 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Lookin good man... your week 2'ers look like my week 4'ers... :facepalm:


*AN:* Your plants looks fine to me. Height is not the determining factor. Note half *MurshDogs * plants are nothing more then stem/stalk. When growing indoors, I'll take a bushy bush over stretchy genetics any day. My pics from November- December are a Sat Dom female. Her stretchy nature drove me crazy. I am growing a cross now between her and an Indica Dom male. I plan to select shorter females for easier control. *MurshDogs *bulb combination seems right, so I am guessing his plants are Sat dom 

*AP Tip *Bevel the top soil in will minimize overflow


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## AltarNation (Mar 23, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *AN:* Your plants looks fine to me. Height is not the determining factor. Note half *MurshDogs * plants are nothing more then stem/stalk. When growing indoors, I'll take a bushy bush over stretchy genetics any day. My pics from November- December are a Sat Dom female. Her stretchy nature drove me crazy. I am growing a cross now between her and an Indica Dom male. I plan to select shorter females for easier control. *MurshDogs *bulb combination seems right, so I am guessing his plants are Sat dom
> 
> *AP Tip *Bevel the top soil in will minimize overflow


Thanks for the pep talk.. Falcon too.

You're right in a sense... some of my buds got kind of stunted from being rough-housed into the scrog screen after they started... but you're right in that I am comparing scrogged plants to upright plants and it's not a fair comparison... we will see how it goes. I am trying to be optimistic for the most part. This is just where i tend to voice my concerns if I have them because I've come to rely on y'all as a reference group, so to speak. 

And yeah, I agree on the air pot tip... I end up forming a little valley right near the stem so that the water always goes down instead of out at the top.


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## MurshDawg (Mar 23, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *AN:* Your plants looks fine to me. Height is not the determining factor. Note half *MurshDogs * plants are nothing more then stem/stalk. When growing indoors, I'll take a bushy bush over stretchy genetics any day. My pics from November- December are a Sat Dom female. Her stretchy nature drove me crazy. I am growing a cross now between her and an Indica Dom male. I plan to select shorter females for easier control. *MurshDogs *bulb combination seems right, so I am guessing his plants are Sat dom
> 
> *AP Tip *Bevel the top soil in will minimize overflow


Yea, white widow and lsd are my sat plants. lsd is a great example of sativa stretch. She would not stop stretching no matter what. The internode length would not decrease despite my topping her. My cheese plant is very bushy. I had to trim her into a rectangle in order to fit. Altar, Your set up seems to be better than mine; you have more IR and reds in your spectrum than I do and that sog will pay off in the end, IMO. It'll keep your canopy more even allowing you to give out more light. The flowers will be supported by the trellising, allowing them to get abnormally larger than what my LSTed plants can get


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## AltarNation (Mar 23, 2012)

I hope you're right and I get some big buds, hehe. We'll see what happens. Does a plant know to stop packing weight onto a branch when the branch can't hold anymore? Or does it just topple and break? haha.

Edit: Wewt, I broke 1k posts! Happy postday to me! lol.


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## jsamuel24 (Mar 23, 2012)

Well, time for my week 2 update. Good to see that the site is back, wish we wouldnt have lost a months worth of posts though. Had one of my girls end up with spider mites, she is now outside where she will stay. Havent seen signs on my other girls however *knock on wood. They are just poping through the scrog now and I think looking pretty good for my 2nd grow ever. Let me know what you think.



A.N. and Mursh, your plants look great. I hope mine look as well in this grow.


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## falcon223 (Mar 23, 2012)

jsamuel, it looks like you might have a mag, deficiency. Or a iron deficiency.

Could be nut burn. But all looks pretty good.


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## kpmarine (Mar 23, 2012)

The plants do look like you're having a problem, the middle one especially. I don't know enough to say what problem though. Fix whatever is killing your leaves, and those will be some good looking plants.


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## jsamuel24 (Mar 23, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> jsamuel, it looks like you might have a mag, deficiency. Or a iron deficiency.
> 
> Could be nut burn. But all looks pretty good.


Allready on it. I believe it was a potassium defiency. Added some this morning but it will take a bit to get it to show. Also on the left plant there is some nute burn. First time using Fox Farms and I made it too strong. Again, workin on it. Thanks!


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## kpmarine (Mar 23, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Allready on it. I believe it was a potassium defiency. Added some this morning but it will take a bit to get it to show. Also on the left plant there is some nute burn. First time using Fox Farms and I made it too strong. Again, workin on it. Thanks!


Like^^^ Stupid, absent, "like" button....


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## PetFlora (Mar 24, 2012)

*POSSIBLE Spider Mites Cure:* Can't say for certain, cause I do not have any, but had been plagued with ants hanging out in my starter closet (hydro)- climbing all over the table top. This grow I added a 26w Repti-Glo IR bulb (runs throughout lights on) known to improve root development among other things. Well, it also seems to kill ants, cause a bunch were dead all over the table , and no more visitors. It would be cool if it also works on SMs. Someone let us know. 

*Jsam:* Looks like your netting is too high, but maybe you raised it for photo purposes. On another thread, a SCROGGER uses individual nets per plant, His frames rest on the top lip of each pot. This provides for flexibility should something happen (like SMs) and you need to get a plant out.


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## PetFlora (Mar 24, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I hope you're right and I get some big buds, hehe. We'll see what happens. Does a plant know to stop packing weight onto a branch when the branch can't hold anymore? Or does it just topple and break? haha.
> 
> Edit: Wewt, I broke 1k posts! Happy postday to me! lol.


Great lighting cannot overcome genetics. If the plant genetics produces smallish buds, lights are not likely to magically produce bigger buds, but will assure getting the most the genetics has to offer


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## AltarNation (Mar 24, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Great lighting cannot overcome genetics. If the plant genetics produces smallish buds, lights are not likely to magically produce bigger buds, but will assure getting the most the genetics has to offer



Righto... I was more wondering about whether a plant (let's assume a plant with good genetics for big buds) will keep packing bud onto a given branch despite that specific branch's strength or "weight limit" being exceeded.... or does the plant slow down on bud development when a branch is getting weak? I was just wondering because Mursh said something about how the scrog will help support the weight and allow for bigger buds on each branch because the weight won't be on the branch. Maybe I misunderstood what he meant though.

Specifically, it was compared to LSTing here, I was just wondering what he meant about the buds being supported yielding more weight... maybe he just meant because they will stay closer to the light... here's the quote:



> *The flowers will be supported by the trellising, allowing them to get abnormally larger than what my LSTed plants can get *


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 24, 2012)

Some ladies about4 weeks into Veg this is a room I setup for a couple of patients. Par lighting and we just flipped them to Flower about 10 days ago. Will update with more pics soon. For flower we don't have a ton of luck with Par and think we prefer all Bloom bulbs with a couple of Flora Suns mixed in. Will see how we yield out this time around. I have Par grows going for myself as well as 4 other grows for compliant patients. All are T5.

These plants have all been either LSt's or heavily supercropped.


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## kpmarine (Mar 24, 2012)

PICTURES!!!

Still grow number one. Haven't killed any yet. So I'm happy.



View attachment 2085794


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 24, 2012)

Me in my garden  
(at least this is how I feel)


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## AltarNation (Mar 24, 2012)

Lookin 'good everyone. Where the FUCK ARE MY LIKES ROLLITUP... god damn


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 24, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Lookin 'good everyone. Where the FUCK ARE MY LIKES ROLLITUP... god damn


I "like" this^^^

...


I guess we just gotta clog up their storage with a million "I 'like' this" posts...


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## AltarNation (Mar 24, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I "like" this^^^
> 
> ...
> 
> ...


Yep. Like. 

I peaked at my babies today... I can see the bud growth each time I look lately... soooo wonderful! I will do a new set of pics when I water...  Air pot babies are growing like crazy too... I think I'm going to FIM the one I left untouched after all, she's pulling ahead of the crowd with the race horse now...


----------



## Undercover Cop (Mar 24, 2012)

Nice  

I dont know if the post was erased during the "great meltdown"... but Im officially T5 exclusive now, from nursery thru flower. No more HPS. 27 tubes total. 960-ish watts in flower, 390-ish watts veg, 96w in the nursery. T5 vs HPS, after seeing the additional trich development now, sugary fuckin frosted leaves and buds, much more so than with my 400wHPS in a cool tube at 4-5" away, I put the HPS away, sitting in my garage now  PAR T5 has proven itself well enough for me


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## AltarNation (Mar 24, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Nice
> 
> I dont know if the post was erased during the "great meltdown"... but Im officially T5 exclusive now, from nursery thru flower. No more HPS. 27 tubes total. 960-ish watts in flower, 390-ish watts veg, 96w in the nursery. T5 vs HPS, after seeing the additional trich development now, sugary fuckin frosted leaves and buds, much more so than with my 400wHPS in a cool tube at 4-5" away, I put the HPS away, sitting in my garage now  PAR T5 has proven itself well enough for me


Haha, very cool. I have to admit, I was amazed at the level of frosty I got to last time. Did not expect to produce such primo quality!!

Sounds like a good setup... I am running 4 4' tubes (216 watts) in my veg chamber and 10 4' bulbs (540w) in my flower chamber... but when the current flower batch finished I'm going to drop the veg chamber fixture in with the 10 for a 14 bulb flowering run next. So that will be a 756w flowering run. 

BTW, with 960 watts in flower, what is your bulb line-up? All PAR?

I was thinking about just dropping in 4 3000k bloom bulbs I have to fill out the balance, and just spread 'em out evenly amongst the PAR bulbs. Might as well use what I've got on hand.

P.S. Reppin' up my PAR T5 brothers 'n sisters in lieu of likes!


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## AltarNation (Mar 24, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> PICTURES!!!
> 
> Still grow number one. Haven't killed any yet. So I'm happy.
> 
> ...


Hey, these look great man. can't wait to see them finish out!


----------



## Dubdeuce (Mar 24, 2012)

Hey Professur, what was your yield with your T5 setup and how big of an area did you use? I definitely dig the whole concept and love all the facts you have put together. Well done and definitely impressed with the growth for being T5. Could you point me to final flowering pictures so I don't have to sift 280 pages of posts on this thread? I've seen your early stages/up to week 4 in flower.


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 25, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Haha, very cool. I have to admit, I was amazed at the level of frosty I got to last time. Did not expect to produce such primo quality!!
> 
> Sounds like a good setup... I am running 4 4' tubes (216 watts) in my veg chamber and 10 4' bulbs (540w) in my flower chamber... but when the current flower batch finished I'm going to drop the veg chamber fixture in with the 10 for a 14 bulb flowering run next. So that will be a 756w flowering run.
> 
> ...


I gotta wait a few days before I can rep you again... 

WHERES THE LIKE BUTTON ROLLIE???

anywhoo... All PAR
Veg is 7 tubes total= 50/50... FloraSun/420-460 Actinics (3 of ea) +1 ReefWave 420nm


FlowerBox is 16 total. 4 tubes sidelight= FloraSun/CoralWave/Roseate/FloraSun, repeated on the opposing panel. then 8 overhead= FloraSun/RedSun/CoralWave/PlantGrow/FloraSun/CoralWave/RedSun/PlantGrow. Eventually I want to swap out the Roseates for RedSun's, but Im ok with it for now.

I also have the 4bulb 2ft panel from the nursery in the flowering box while Im not germinating/cloning. used as sidelighting on the 3rd side, 2x6500k's/1xFS/1x420-460nm actinic


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## AltarNation (Mar 25, 2012)

Woooooo... beautiful! What a bulb collection you've got there! I bet your veg chamber grows out of control with all those actinic bulbs...


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## AltarNation (Mar 25, 2012)

Dubdeuce said:


> Hey Professur, what was your yield with your T5 setup and how big of an area did you use? I definitely dig the whole concept and love all the facts you have put together. Well done and definitely impressed with the growth for being T5. Could you point me to final flowering pictures so I don't have to sift 280 pages of posts on this thread? I've seen your early stages/up to week 4 in flower.


FYI, I pulled about 9.5 Oz's off 7 plants in a 4x3 space with one 8-bulb 4' PAR T5 setup. (432 watts total) Not gonna track down pics for you, but those are the numbers for me.


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## MurshDawg (Mar 25, 2012)

Hey Undercover! What are bulbs do you use for your germination light?


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 25, 2012)

MurshDawg said:


> Hey Undercover! What are bulbs do you use for your germination light?


I used to use 3 to 1 6500k/3000k 26w cfls (7 total).. Now with 4 2ft T5 bulbs, I use 2 of the stock 6500k tubes alone, until I see true leaves (or new growth for clones) then I kick on the other two tubes, a 420\460 actinic and a FloraSun


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## AltarNation (Mar 25, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I used to use 3 to 1 6500k/3000k 26w cfls (7 total).. Now with 4 2ft T5 bulbs, I use 2 of the stock 6500k tubes alone, until I see true leaves (or new growth for clones) then I kick on the other two tubes, a 420\460 actinic and a FloraSun


Sounds good! I think I might pull one of the 454's in my veg chamber and put in a 6500k to balance the light a little more... (right now it's 454,75/25,SuperActinic,454)


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## MurshDawg (Mar 26, 2012)

You guys think the PAR curve for the 6500ks are better for propagation than the 3000ks? I thought 3 ks spread was wider and better, imo... but maybe that 6500k has just the amount of blue.


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## ThirdHyeOpen (Mar 26, 2012)

Excellent reading minus the gap, so much info for my newbie brain. question for blueb and the pr0, what ever became of the lighting you were looking to have manufactured ? Also I would love to get a recommendation from the par t5 collective on a 4 foot 8 bulb bloom configuration.


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 26, 2012)

MurshDawg said:


> You guys think the PAR curve for the 6500ks are better for propagation than the 3000ks? I thought 3 ks spread was wider and better, imo... but maybe that 6500k has just the amount of blue.


Yeah, the 6500k's have more useable blue, and neither have much useable red. The bloom bulbs have drastically less blue, and about the same amt of 630-660 as the grows, so as far as PAR output I think the 6500k's provide more usable output. Much of a bloom bulbs output will be in the less utilized yellow/orange region. Although neither can compare to FloraSun's, which provide both PAR Blue and Red


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## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

I Shall be In the PAR T5 Group Soon enough. I just ordered me a 2 ft 8 bulb T5 fixture. 
Though i read the thread i am still a little confused on the setup and the nM wave length that is needed with the correct order to disperse the light correctly.. 

I will be in Flowering shortly so i will need a flowering setup
Does anyone want to help me out here. 

Im thinking that i will have the 

Fiji Purple
Super Blue Actinic
Red
75.25
Fiji Purple
Red
Super Blus Actinic
Fiji Purple


BUT 

I dont know what bulbs are in the RED spectra. 



I know the PRO said that he used www.aquariumspecialty.com as his bulb supplier. But they no longer carry the ATI bulb that he referenced. can some one reefer me to another bulb. 

Thanks Much..


I cannot wait to join the ranks. 

First thing on my list.....


FUCKING SCROG COMPETITION WITH THE PAR T5 GROUP..

Unless some one beat me too it. 




IF SOME ONE WOULD BE KIND ENOUGH TO SHOW ME TO A BULB THAT SUPPORTS THE FAR RED SPECTRUM THAT WOULD BE GREAT...

Im still searching google. ...


----------



## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

maybe a possible ATI T5 12000K Aquablue in there for some balance. what do you think...??


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 26, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> I Shall be In the PAR T5 Group Soon enough. I just ordered me a 2 ft 8 bulb T5 fixture.
> Though i read the thread i am still a little confused on the setup and the nM wave length that is needed with the correct order to disperse the light correctly..
> 
> I will be in Flowering shortly so i will need a flowering setup
> ...


Red suns are in the red but they are overpriced as hell. I will never pay $20 for a single bulb again. Keep in mind most bulbs are really only 10,000hrs and degrade pretty greatly after even 6000hrs.

I like the Florasuns and AgroGrow for my bloom bulbs now. But im doing side by side with a bunch right now. Currently all neck and neck at the 2 week mark.


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## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

What are tHe spectra of the agro sun and florasun. I'm not to worried about price on bulb I just need to know if I have em in town or if I gotta order em .


----------



## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

another question.. With the spectra graphs... Does it matter how high the peak is.. This may be stupid question. But The peaks on the graph designate the intesity at that spectrum of light, Right?


If i am correct i would assume that we want the highest intensity possible. do we know that all companies graphs are accurate and not a bunch of hooey. 

So i am going to just go with the assumption they are high output if it says it.... 


0.o


----------



## 48martin (Mar 26, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> *and not a bunch of hooey.*
> 
> 
> 0.o


Rep + for the use of the word hooey.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 26, 2012)

Here is a little side by side going at 15 days so far. Pretty much all running neck and neck. LED kinda falling behind a bit on the larfy buds.

Read the description for details on it.

[video=youtube;ChZahrcwoto]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ChZahrcwoto[/video]


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 26, 2012)

great video Lucius............man that blackstar led has a TINY coverage area................keep on rocking the T5 bro............


----------



## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

So can someone confirm that these bulbs will work. I am nervous that i just dropped 115 bonaroons for nothing. 

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16887
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16769
http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21444


The actinics are not in stock at the moment. 
But the 12000k and the HO Pink Roseate 650 nM were in stock. 

And I do believe that the 650nM are closer to the 660 nM so better that 630nM right? 

Some one please respond soon. Im kinda trippin


----------



## Undercover Cop (Mar 26, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> So can someone confirm that these bulbs will work. I am nervous that i just dropped 115 bonaroons for nothing.
> 
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16887
> http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=16769
> ...


The 12000k Actinic Whites are mostly 550 green and 610 orange, not well used for photosynthesis. I would skip em. FloraSun's are under $10 and are a little better than the Roseates. But the Roseates arent bad. I'd skip the 420 Actinics also, unless you already have a decent PAR spectrum and are just fine tuning. The 420/460 Actinics are good to use during Veg but only with other, more full spectrum, tubes.

 <- Actinic White 12k
It will look very bright and white to our human eyes, but produces no Red over 610 ("power band" is 630-660) and has lots of green that wont be utilized by the green foliage.


Call em before they ship. Aquarium Guys has FloraSun's for like $9, WavePoint BlueWave and AquaticLife 420/460s are good actinics also. The 420 Actinics or 03 actinics have a pretty narrow peak at about 422 giving a deep violet hue, but Regular Super Blue's or 460 Actinics (BlueWave's) have a wider peak from 420 thru 455ish that covers more of the PAR wavelengths. AquaticLife 420/460's are pretty nice too


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 26, 2012)

It will work but I personally am growing away from Actinics as I don't think they are needed.

Also not a fan of expensive bulbs when cheap bulbs do the trick.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 26, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> great video Lucius............man that blackstar led has a TINY coverage area................keep on rocking the T5 bro............



yea it's bullshit. i have 2 of them.


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## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> The 12000k Actinic Whites are mostly 550 green and 610 orange, not well used for photosynthesis. I would skip em. FloraSun's are under $10 and are a little better than the Roseates. But the Roseates arent bad. I'd skip the 420 Actinics also, unless you already have a decent PAR spectrum and are just fine tuning. The 420/460 Actinics are good to use during Veg but only with other, more full spectrum, tubes.
> 
> View attachment 2092193 <- Actinic White 12k
> It will look very bright and white to our human eyes, but produces no Red over 610 ("power band" is 630-660) and has lots of green that wont be utilized by the green foliage.
> ...


Well my fixture is coming with some GROW lights so would those balance the spectrum? I have an aqaurium store that I can go to buy some different bulbs


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## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

But the 12000k have a 450 spike which would balance par with giving some green light to introduce photosynthesis correct?


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## ValleGrown (Mar 26, 2012)

These will work for bloom tho right ???


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 27, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> But the 12000k have a 450 spike which would balance par with giving some green light to introduce photosynthesis correct?


regular 6500k grow bulbs have about the same amout of blue as those, they look like they have a bit more green tho. They will work ok for either bloom or veg, but you can get much better performance from the right spectrum. people grow from seed to flower with HPS which is a horrible spectrum for plant growth, but it still works, quite well infact. But with the right spectrum you can increase the potency/flavor/overall quality. Just like nutes provide nutrition to the plant, proper lighting is also necessary to get the most optimal growth.


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 27, 2012)

T5 and PAR growing for beginners... (was in response to others questions so they're adressing them)
yes they were posted only about a month ago (sorry to those that already saw them), but they cover alot of topics and have lots of SPD graphs






Originally Posted by *Undercover Cop*  
post #1






Originally Posted by *Undercover Cop*  
post #2






Originally Posted by *Undercover Cop*  
post #3


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## ValleGrown (Mar 27, 2012)

I can't see anything.



So what are the main spectra that need to be accomplished?
420nM - 700nM right? 


So what considers PAR different than regular T5 . Just that we aren't wasting energy on unusable spectrums and utilizing only the spectra that plants grow in. Right? 

I'm still a little confused. Can someone point out if there are specific nM ranges.


all of this data Is confusin the fuck out of me


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## ValleGrown (Mar 27, 2012)

http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-growing/59617-lumens-lux-par-what-they.html

If this article is correct even though anectdotal would I be led to believe that anything between 420nM - 700nM would be consider on PAR? As long as we aren't wasting lots of energy is 550nM - 600nM where the yellows and oranges come in... 

We consider 
420-550nm and 630-700nm is optimum spectra for their each respected end of thspectrum and PUR

Am I even close here or am I a fuckin nut rambling?


----------



## ValleGrown (Mar 27, 2012)

Bump for good reason


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## jsamuel24 (Mar 27, 2012)

I just thought of a strange question. Has anyone looked into what PAR the moon reflects when it is in its various phases? not that I want to use light durring flowering, but just was curious if anyone had looked into that and what they found.


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## overTHEman (Mar 27, 2012)

ValleGrown,

Most of the PAR T5 growers here started with the pr0fesseur's recommendations, then adapted his techniques to fit their own needs as dictated by their experience. Also, check out those posts from UCC, they're loaded with compiled PAR info. 

IME, the pr0fesseur's bulb suggestions are a great place to start.


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## ValleGrown (Mar 27, 2012)

Ok but did you notice my original question


ValleGrown said:


> http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-growing/59617-lumens-lux-par-what-they.html
> 
> If this article is correct even though anectdotal would I be led to believe that anything between 420nM - 700nM would be consider on PAR? As long as we aren't wasting lots of energy is 550nM - 600nM where the yellows and oranges come in...
> 
> ...


----------



## Undercover Cop (Mar 27, 2012)

420-460 and 630-660 are the power bands, plants can utilize almost all light to some degree, but those are the primo wavelengths that are used most efficiently. Ideally you would have both during both phases of growth, only dominant in blues during veg and dominant reds during flower. You still want to fill out the rest of the spectrum tho, as IR and UV have their place in optimizing your results in flower, and cyan/green/yellow can help the absorbtion of other wavelengths (but are needed substantially less). 

In my previous post, click the 3 blue square arrows ">>" for the individual links to the posts referred to.


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## 48martin (Mar 27, 2012)

Thank you guys again for all of the great info. Its been two weeks since the new bulbs arrived and have been installed. Plants really look like they are enjoying the light. Here is the arrangement of bulbs I am using.

Flower- ATI ProColor / CoralWave / RedSun / ATI ProColor - repeat every 4 tubes (2 weeks so far)
Veg- 6500 / Reefwave / Bluewave / 6500 (have not used yet)
Seeds/Clones - 24wCFL

Went with the ATI ProColor because I got them cheaper than Florasuns and my budget was fixed. These will last me until I can upgrade. 

Thanks again for the incredible amount of useful info and insight.

-48


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## PSUAGRO. (Mar 27, 2012)

overTHEman said:


> ValleGrown,
> 
> Most of the PAR T5 growers here started with the pr0fesseur's recommendations, then adapted his techniques to fit their own needs as dictated by their experience. Also, check out those posts from UCC, they're loaded with compiled PAR info.
> 
> IME, the pr0fesseur's bulb suggestions are a great place to start.


^^^^wow....I AM INTRIGUED......I was also under the assumption of using rocks for lower root aeration.......taught to me @ PSU in 2001..go figure


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 27, 2012)

rollitup said:


> Yes, we are aware that you want the Like feature. We would Like to bring it back, but are having trouble with it. We are working on it, and hopefully will be able to implement it again.


Soon, I hope.


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## AltarNation (Mar 27, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Soon, I hope.


Second!

Also, THANK YOU ROLLY for responding and updating us on it instead of leaving us hanging! <3


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## AltarNation (Mar 28, 2012)

Freaking GROWTH EXPLOSION... left the house for two days and came back and it was like someone stole my airpot plants and replaced them with bushes  Pics today when I feed!


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## ValleGrown (Mar 28, 2012)

Fuckin a! 5/6 females. The boy will be used for pollen. I need more seeds. So we have three god bud females. And 1 snow white. And one mystery bean. I will be flowering them all hopefully.


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## Ballsonrawls (Mar 28, 2012)

Plants look great man! Subd


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 28, 2012)

Ballsonrawls said:


> Plants look great man! Subd


Why thank you  -(from all of us lol)-


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## unohu69 (Mar 28, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Freaking GROWTH EXPLOSION... left the house for two days and came back and it was like someone stole my airpot plants and replaced them with bushes  Pics today when I feed!



Its usually a pleasant surprise if i take off for a day or two, its almost like they want to be left alone sometimes hahahaha


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## kpmarine (Mar 28, 2012)

unohu69 said:


> Its usually a pleasant surprise if i take off for a day or two, its almost like they want to be left alone sometimes hahahaha


Even plants need a little "me time" once in a while. haha


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## falcon223 (Mar 28, 2012)

Hay Alter, thanks for the sannies hook up. I got 2 of there seeds coming. I hope they make it??


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## AltarNation (Mar 28, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Why thank you  -(from all of us lol)-


second that!


----------



## AltarNation (Mar 28, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Hay Alter, thanks for the sannies hook up. I got 2 of there seeds coming. I hope they make it??


Cool man, which ones did you order? 

He has a high success rate and he resends anything that doesn't get through, so... !


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## knnthc93 (Mar 28, 2012)

So what is the yield increase compared to regular veg/bloom bulbs


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## AltarNation (Mar 28, 2012)

knnthc93 said:


> So what is the yield increase compared to regular veg/bloom bulbs


I dunno, why doncha try it? Haha. 312 pages of material to draw from... but I can't say anyone has done a side by side...


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## AltarNation (Mar 28, 2012)

unohu69 said:


> Its usually a pleasant surprise if i take off for a day or two, its almost like they want to be left alone sometimes hahahaha


For serious B


----------



## knnthc93 (Mar 28, 2012)

Ive read this thread a few times. No one has grow With reg bulbs then upgraded?


----------



## pedro420 (Mar 28, 2012)

knnthc93 said:


> Ive read this thread a few times. No one has grow With reg bulbs then upgraded?


I could say that I have 

I had 2 autos under my fixture with 3 vegging girls they were under just reg grow/bloom now the 3 girls that are left are under par lights 

2 flora sun / 1 Coralwave 1- 3000k
( I know that's not enough to flower all 3 but it's wat I got so I'm working with it and it is working good enough fr me for now untill I move) 

But there was a big difference in just one day one of the girls leafs went from kinda saggy to almost strieght up and there has been tighter nodes and a lot healthier looking leafs 

Am haveing a bit of a p-k def but we are working threw it getting back on track things got kinda screwed up for a bit


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 29, 2012)

knnthc93 said:


> Ive read this thread a few times. No one has grow With reg bulbs then upgraded?


I started with just plain ol' 6500k grow bulbs and had good results. I added a BlueWave and ReefWave and saw much tighter internode spacing although possibly slightly slower growth. I swapped out those generic tri-band 6500k's that only peak at 610nm, for FloraSuns that have PAR red 630-660nm. I now have the tight node spacing but have a quicker growth rate since they're getting lots of both PAR RED and BLUE with a little bit of green/yellow/orange too. During Veg I keep them Blue dominant but always make sure to provide good Red and the other supplementals. The opposite goes for Flower, Red Dominant while still providing blue (which isnt hard since almost every bulb has a healthy dose of blue anyway)

Trust me and the whole point of the thread, you will see a difference in performance with the right bulb selection ...and it wont cost you $20 a bulb... except for RedSuns, sorry 

WavePoint BlueWave + CoralWave, ZooMed FloraSun, AquaticLife Roseate, CoralLife ColorMax will all run about 8-10$ All will hold their own and will work into most custom PAR spectrums. 
In My Ever So Humble Opinion...


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 29, 2012)

I emailed Kevin from WavePoint about the UltraGrowth Waves. He said "We are going to release the ultra growth wave however we are in final test, verifying that the bulbs will hold up as you may know many of the red bulbs do not hold color. I hope to have some production bulbs ready in about 4-6 weeks....Kevin Shiotani" 

If UVL is making a "660", I would be willing to bet it would be a tri-band bulb due to costs, and if so I'd be willing to pay half the price to get the same bulb as the UltraGrowth (which is pretty much the same as a FloraSun really when you compare SPD's, but I'd still be willing to get a few UltraGrowths just to compare and hope for more of a deeper red from them) 
But if UVL is making a DeepRedSun or a pure 660 tube like the RedSuns 630........then that changes everything...


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## PetFlora (Mar 29, 2012)

First to anyone who cannot afford $15-25 bulbs...

Both Quantums are pretty good, with the nod to the Grow bulb. However, the Flower bulb needs help in the Red Zone (especially when growing Indica dom), but that can be covered with adding a Coral Wave + Red Life + FloraSun and/or a 660. So if you don't own Quantum Flower (I have  then buy CW + RL + FS. Hell, the FS alone should provide a damn nice harvest both quality AND quantity

*UC: Good 411* on the Ultra Wave. Did he actually say deep reds are harder to keep inside the bulb? If so, then that could be the issue with the Red Lifes, too.

According to my conversations early on with UVL, the new bulb is a specific 660nm, and consequently is going to cost more ($24.95). I asked him about a bulb that covered 650-740. He said it would be too expensive, which could be mfg speak for maybe later, as the focus is on the 660

*Bulb Placement*

Due to much darker green leafs on one side, I repositioned the other 3 bulbs. (Plants are still small enough to not need 8 bulbs). 

Even though heat is not an issue, I am raising the BB fixture to ~ 5" above the canopy. The top of my pod is covered with Al foil + side reflection SHOULD help in homogenizing the various spectra 

*Current Veg*

1/6 UVL AquaSuns- Mostly B/G: soon to be replaced with Red Lifes (could show up by tomorrow)
2/5 Coral Waves- veg & flower UVb + IR: What the Fiji should have been
3/4 Quantum Grow- Excellent inexp bulb- better for Sats. Soon to be replaced with FloraSuns (better for Indica dom). I should do this now, but waiting for 3 plants to darken a bit. 

*Happy growin*


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## PetFlora (Mar 29, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I could say that I have
> 
> I had 2 autos under my fixture with 3 vegging girls they were under just reg grow/bloom now the 3 girls that are left are under par lights
> 
> ...


_*and he got really good results too! My frst grow was using only Quantum G/F bulbs. I had excellent growth, but due to heat stress in my HPA pod, all plants became male, so I pulled them. Before starting again I came across Pr0fs thread
*_


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## hyroot (Mar 29, 2012)

Hola banditos. Im baa-aack. 9 days away from chop chop. bubba kush yaaaaaaaa.

Im putting 16 bulb up now so 24 bulb total

8 bulb - 2 fiji, 1 coral wave, 3 redsun, 2 flora sun. I swapped a redsun back in. They like it.
16 bulb - 2 coral wave, 7 flora sun, 7 redsun. This combo rocks. I almost want ro swap in 2 fiji. I will post some pics just before wood chop wood chop chop and after.

Keep it real

Happy yard work


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## cjd (Mar 29, 2012)

A couple quick questions for everyone. Has anyone used the Evergreen light? Would there be much interest in an American made "Badboy" design with options. Options like a choice of reflectors and ballasts and higher quality?


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## AltarNation (Mar 29, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I emailed Kevin from WavePoint about the UltraGrowth Waves. He said "We are going to release the ultra growth wave however we are in final test, verifying that the bulbs will hold up as you may know many of the red bulbs do not hold color. I hope to have some production bulbs ready in about 4-6 weeks....Kevin Shiotani"
> 
> If UVL is making a "660", I would be willing to bet it would be a tri-band bulb due to costs, and if so I'd be willing to pay half the price to get the same bulb as the UltraGrowth (which is pretty much the same as a FloraSun really when you compare SPD's, but I'd still be willing to get a few UltraGrowths just to compare and hope for more of a deeper red from them)
> But if UVL is making a DeepRedSun or a pure 660 tube like the RedSuns 630........then that changes everything...


*crossing fingers*


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## jsamuel24 (Mar 29, 2012)

Hows it going everyone here at RIU.

Last veg photos are in. I think I have my Nute problem taken care of and have started to add Earth Juice individual nutes to prep for flowering change. As allways any advice would be appreciated. Have started to prune under the cannopy, but held off till I can get to the hydro store to get some rockwool and rooting agent. Too many stems are in great shape but need another 2 weeks or so to hit the cannopy, so figure i should keep this fire og around. I think its still a little low in N, and since I changed to PAR lighting I have noticed that the plants drink the N out of the soil like a life long alcoholic in the middle of the Jack Daniels Distelery that is unguarded. Any imput on this grow would be greatly appreciated. I dont think its going too bad for a second grow from a person who had never kept a plant alive for a full life cycle until last grow. In the past I have had the worst green thumb ever. Hoping that changed alot. As for the plant that went outside, she is doing well and is recovering from her spider mite fiasco. Just going to leave her out there for the year and hope, but I dont think she is going to really do much at all.


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## pedro420 (Mar 29, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> _*and he got really good results too! My frst grow was using only Quantum G/F bulbs. I had excellent growth, but due to heat stress in my HPA pod, all plants became male, so I pulled them. Before starting again I came across Pr0fs thread
> *_



Like -----^^^

Thanks I thought they did pretty good for being my second grow indoors and haveing heat issues almost there entire lyfe 

I'm hopeing the remaining girls do a lil better thangs autos 

The auto was a realy cool experament tho it was interesting to watch


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## kpmarine (Mar 29, 2012)

cjd said:


> A couple quick questions for everyone. Has anyone used the Evergreen light? Would there be much interest in an American made "Badboy" design with options. Options like a choice of reflectors and ballasts and higher quality?


What kind reflector and ballast choices were you thinking? What quality improvements? The judicious use of 2 pc fans would make a bad boy run as cold as it could, or so it would seem. That's the only improvement I can think of.


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## cjd (Mar 29, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> What kind reflector and ballast choices were you thinking? What quality improvements? The judicious use of 2 pc fans would make a bad boy run as cold as it could, or so it would seem. That's the only improvement I can think of.


The fan was something I was working with a company to either install a fan or make it like a "cool tube". Honestly I am leaning more to the "cool tube" idea. As for the ballasts it would be a choice of a basic unit or a high end electronic unit. The reflectors could be available in wide, medium and narrow it would depend on how you would want to blend your light. It would also be aluminum but not collapsible. There seems to be some complaints about the Badboy's construction and it seems that the folding is a weak point. Lastly it would be made in the US and if it goes as it should CHEAPER in the equlivent configuration as the current Badboy.. Right now I am seeing if there is much if any interest in it before I invest any cash.


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## AltarNation (Mar 29, 2012)

Hey man. I like the idea of cool tube setups because these things do put a decent amount of heat off... the problem is, plexiglass in front of lights that already have relatively weak penetration power... not really comfortable losing anything to the glass shield.

I am pretty interested in the premise of figuring out a way to vent out the heat without shielding the bulbs, though. I have built a DIY solution by halfing a section of 6" ducting and laying it across the ballast box, taping it down along the sides, and having a 6" duct coming out of the middle of that halfed piece. It pulls a ton of heat directly off the fixture, and even pulls some from between the ballast box and the reflectors, so it does vent some heat right off the bulbs as well.

If you could figure out a way to engineer a solution along those lines, while still keeping the bulbs bare, I would be very interested in buying some.

P.S. There is a picture from my gallery incase you don't get what I'm describing... no patents on this, just DIYing for fun. Would be glad to see someone apply the logic, so consider it a freebie idea.

Can't figure out how to access my own damn gallery... heh. Here, I'll reupload a couple shots:


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 29, 2012)

Welcome back Hyroot!

PF, that was an exact quote from Kevin at wavepoint. I'm sure they prob have some that theyre running a few more months to make sure they'll last their full rated lifespan. Ive not had the problem myself with RedSuns (mine just pooped out within a week) but Ive heard that they like to fade to a more orangeish color long before their rated life is up (if they don't fail outright, that is)

Id still love to see the SPD (or planned spd) for the new 660. Just to see how wide the spike is. RedSuns cover something like 622-640 or so, Itd be nice to have a really wide peak for the 660s. A peak from 625-670 would be Tits AND Ass. That bulb would replace RedSuns all together IMO.


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## AltarNation (Mar 29, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Id still love to see the SPD (or planned spd) for the new 660. Just to see how wide the spike is. RedSuns cover something like 622-640 or so, Itd be nice to have a really wide peak for the 660s. A peak from 625-670 would be Tits AND Ass. That bulb would replace RedSuns all together IMO.


*crossing fingers*


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## kpmarine (Mar 29, 2012)

cjd said:


> The fan was something I was working with a company to either install a fan or make it like a "cool tube". Honestly I am leaning more to the "cool tube" idea. As for the ballasts it would be a choice of a basic unit or a high end electronic unit. The reflectors could be available in wide, medium and narrow it would depend on how you would want to blend your light. It would also be aluminum but not collapsible. There seems to be some complaints about the Badboy's construction and it seems that the folding is a weak point. Lastly it would be made in the US and if it goes as it should CHEAPER in the equlivent configuration as the current Badboy.. Right now I am seeing if there is much if any interest in it before I invest any cash.


If you could make it better, cheaper, and customisable; people will buy it. If the cooltube design goes over the bulbs, I have the same concerns as AN. However, if you can pull all of this off with your fixtures. I would totally buy some when I expand.


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## kpmarine (Mar 29, 2012)

Speaking of T5 related business ventures, anybody heard from the Prof lately?


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## cjd (Mar 29, 2012)

AN,
It was your idea that brought me to the vent!


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## AltarNation (Mar 29, 2012)

cjd said:


> AN,
> It was your idea that brought me to the vent!


Cool man, I am glad to be an inspiration! Have you got any ideas about how to implement it smoothly without covering the bulbs and without a bunch of taped-on ducting? hehe. It works really well as is, but sure would like something more compact and permanent.


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## cjd (Mar 29, 2012)

The cooling of the bulb is the problem I totally agree with both you and AN. I really don't know if much can be done with that unless the bulb could be pushed a little harder. Then you have to compare the benefits of a little less heat to the overall cost and lifespan of the set up. Can it be done? Yes it can, but with what draw backs, final cost is the major one. What I have been asking myself is, how perfect of a set up can we realistically and economically expect.


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## hyroot (Mar 29, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Welcome back Hyroot!
> 
> PF, that was an exact quote from Kevin at wavepoint. I'm sure they prob have some that theyre running a few more months to make sure they'll last their full rated lifespan. Ive not had the problem myself with RedSuns (mine just pooped out within a week) but Ive heard that they like to fade to a more orangeish color long before their rated life is up (if they don't fail outright, that is)
> 
> Id still love to see the SPD (or planned spd) for the new 660. Just to see how wide the spike is. RedSuns cover something like 622-640 or so, Itd be nice to have a really wide peak for the 660s. uA peak from 625-670 would be Tits AND Ass. That bulb would replace RedSuns all together IMO.



That sounds great. I have not seen any spd chart for a new deep redsun. That will be so sweet when it comes out. 

Also my original redsuns are still going strong even the one I thought was going to burn out. They have not faded at all. I think I got them last sep or oct.


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## falcon223 (Mar 29, 2012)

jsamuel, thous look good. You do have some kind of nute problem. I think you may be rite, about N. Try a good flush.


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## 48martin (Mar 29, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> What kind reflector and ballast choices were you thinking? What quality improvements? The judicious use of 2 pc fans would make a bad boy run as cold as it could, or so it would seem. That's the only improvement I can think of.


Their are high end T5HO fixtures that already have built in fans on the top that exhaust the heat. I dont think it would be that much $ to incorporate that into a fixture and the draw would be minimal. I like Alternations next step that hooks up to an exhaust hose. I think it would be great to have a unit with built in fans and an adapter that hooks easily to a 4" hose or something. 
-48


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## cjd (Mar 29, 2012)

I have a couple of ideas and the simplest seems to be the most economical. I am focusing on the ballasts in the idea of a cool tube. I am also keeping the idea of my first post on this site. I believe using the PAR concept and incorporating the idea of adjusting the amount of available light at different times of the day and time of the plants life will maximize the yield and or quality. The fundamental work has already been done by the aquarium people primarily the reef guys. It just needs to be tweaked. Most life on this planet is effected by the changing of the seasons. What are we really attempting to do with indoor lighting? Copy nature but just more intensely and with less loss. I might be wrong but I worked with salt and fresh water plants and fish and anytime I went against the way nature does it I wasn't satisfied with the results. The concept of this can and has been used for many different things for a very long time.


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## 48martin (Mar 29, 2012)

cjd said:


> I have a couple of ideas and the simplest seems to be the most economical. I am focusing on the ballasts in the idea of a cool tube. I am also keeping the idea of my first post on this site. I believe using the PAR concept and incorporating the idea of adjusting the amount of available light at different times of the day and time of the plants life will maximize the yield and or quality. The fundamental work has already been done by the aquarium people primarily the reef guys. It just needs to be tweaked. Most life on this planet is effected by the changing of the seasons. What are we really attempting to do with indoor lighting? Copy nature but just more intensely and with less loss. I might be wrong but I worked with salt and fresh water plants and fish and anytime I went against the way nature does it I wasn't satisfied with the results. The concept of this can and has been used for many different things for a very long time.


nice. I think that will be the way of the future for LED for sure. Hook up an LED to a computer and run a program that controls which light. You could program dawn, dusk, early summer, cloudy days, ect... 

Your right about the reef guys. Some of those high end T5 units have programmable features but the cost is still too high. IMO
-48


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## ValleGrown (Mar 29, 2012)

Now this is going somewhere...


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## AltarNation (Mar 29, 2012)

cjd said:


> I have a couple of ideas and the simplest seems to be the most economical. I am focusing on the ballasts in the idea of a cool tube. I am also keeping the idea of my first post on this site. I believe using the PAR concept and incorporating the idea of adjusting the amount of available light at different times of the day and time of the plants life will maximize the yield and or quality. The fundamental work has already been done by the aquarium people primarily the reef guys. It just needs to be tweaked. Most life on this planet is effected by the changing of the seasons. What are we really attempting to do with indoor lighting? Copy nature but just more intensely and with less loss. I might be wrong but I worked with salt and fresh water plants and fish and anytime I went against the way nature does it I wasn't satisfied with the results. The concept of this can and has been used for many different things for a very long time.


Pr0f was talking early in the thread about remoting ballasts... why not just make a T5 design with premium ballasts that can handle long leads and remote them so they can be put outside the grow room? I would have done something along those lines but I'm fairly sure the ballasts in my unit are the cheap kind that can't handle the long leads...


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## cjd (Mar 29, 2012)

48 & AN 
Already crossed that path and the fix has already been produced. It would be a re purposed reef timer and light controller. It not much different than the current light controllers you could but from CAP etc, just more advanced. In the end it would run about the same as a quality light timer that you can buy at a grow shop. It can even email you with updates on conditions and alerts, power loss ph issues etc. It would just be a question of how far do you want to go.


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## cjd (Mar 29, 2012)

48, 
Hans at ledgrow.eu is basically doing the same thing, he is just doing in manually.


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 29, 2012)

48martin said:


> nice. I think that will be the way of the future for LED for sure. Hook up an LED to a computer and run a program that controls which light. You could program dawn, dusk, early summer, cloudy days, ect...
> 
> Your right about the reef guys. Some of those high end T5 units have programmable features but the cost is still too high. IMO
> -48


Growzebo on ebay, 8bulb 4ft panels WITH built in timer controls and Actinic tubes for only about $160ish (w/o timers are $150) Not exactly a computer program, but I believe the timers allow control of 4 pair of bulbs individually so you can start with IR/Red then bring in the Blues during mid-day etc...


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## 48martin (Mar 30, 2012)

cjd- Thanks for the link to that site. Just popped it up and it looks interesting. Will have too check it out.

UnderCover- Nice find. any idea on the quality? It would be ideal if they could a just put a (dimmer) rheostat for each light.
This way you could still keep supplying light to the plants but just not as much. This is where i think the flexibility and cost of LED tech will be cheaper but maybe not better. IMHO


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 30, 2012)

48martin said:


> cjd- Thanks for the link to that site. Just popped it up and it looks interesting. Will have too check it out.
> 
> UnderCover- Nice find. any idea on the quality? It would be ideal if they could a just put a (dimmer) rheostat for each light.
> This way you could still keep supplying light to the plants but just not as much. This is where i think the flexibility and cost of LED tech will be cheaper but maybe not better. IMHO



I have 4 of their fixtures now (not with timers tho) Their 4bulb fixtures are unbeatable for the price ($100, or $70 for a 2ft panel), Their 6 and 8 bulb fixtures hold 2 bulbs per reflector so there is loss due to restrike off adjacent bulbs and less efficient reflectors VS a Hydrofarm or more costly fixture with individual reflectors. But they're very compact (17"w for an 8bulb) vs 2ft wide for other models, so they have their functionality if you wanna cram a shitload of tubes in a small area or a vert grow. Ive had no problems with mine, as long as they run the tubes I stick in em, and have reflectors to put it where I need it...
then Im happy


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## cjd (Mar 30, 2012)

48,
Hans is helpful if you or anyone has questions email him. He is very busy but will get back to you. FYI read every one of his grows, every one has invaluable info for all. You are right is is easier to build a LED panel with micro controllers and such to vary, adjust and time your lighting. Right now it's not cheaper and not all LED's are the same. You can have 2 of the same LED's that will not produce the exact same light, there are from different "Bin's". A higher bin just means that it's the best of the best of that run of LED's. It's why you will find 2 prices for the same LED on some of the DIY reef light sites or electronics company's. It's why I say to also look at them for ideas. They are very analytical in what they do.


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## PetFlora (Mar 30, 2012)

I know pr0f was working on a fixture prototype. He seems to be MIA. I will PM him and see if I get a response. Quantum BB has vent slots in the reflectors. 

I am in S FL, my room does not have ac, and don't have any extreme heat issues that a strong floor fan can't solve, but I am not growing in a close quarter tent. The space above my diy frame is open + high ceiling. Banquet tents (with pyramid ceiling) are available under $200. Lowes sells 4 x 8 @ 2" insulated panels: one side is reflector material. Super easy to make a 3-4 sided 4 X 4 X 8 tent (or double wide) with open ceiling to vent hot air.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I know pr0f was working on a fixture prototype. He seems to be MIA. I will PM him and see if I get a response. Quantum BB has vent slots in the reflectors.
> 
> I am in S FL, my room does not have ac, and don't have any extreme heat issues that a strong floor fan can't solve, but I am not growing in a close quarter tent. The space above my diy frame is open + high ceiling. Banquet tents (with pyramid ceiling) are available under $200. Lowes sells 4 x 8 @ 2" insulated panels: one side is reflector material. Super easy to make a 3-4 sided 4 X 4 X 8 tent (or double wide) with open ceiling to vent hot air.


Wow, that's actually a great idea. I could always throw a panel over the top temporarily if I have company. Kudos PF... perhaps my next enclosure will be a DIY frame with no roof 

"You must spread reputation around before giving it to PetFlora again!"


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## cjd (Mar 30, 2012)

Wow in my doing 10 different things at once made me forget something huge. I have access to Wavepoint, Coralife, Zoomed and Purely Enterprises bulbs and just about everything pet related. I can buy from the same distributors that everyone else buys from. Let me know what you are looking for and I might be able to save everyone some money. I am also talking to an induction and Flouro light company so I will be able to sell either at a discount. But with the lights the more I can order the cheaper they would be for everyone.


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## cjd (Mar 30, 2012)

This site is a great source of scientific reports and studies. If you can think it up most likely has been a study. There are hours of reading fun on it.


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## 48martin (Mar 30, 2012)

I could not agree anymore.


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## cjd (Mar 30, 2012)

cjd said:


> This site is a great source of scientific reports and studies. If you can think it up most likely has been a study. There are hours of reading fun on it.


My bad I never put the links up 
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/advancedsearch.jsp
http://www.osti.gov/


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

cjd said:


> Wow in my doing 10 different things at once made me forget something huge. I have access to Wavepoint, Coralife, Zoomed and Purely Enterprises bulbs and just about everything pet related. I can buy from the same distributors that everyone else buys from. Let me know what you are looking for and I might be able to save everyone some money. I am also talking to an induction and Flouro light company so I will be able to sell either at a discount. But with the lights the more I can order the cheaper they would be for everyone.


Dude, if you get a hookup for a deal on good induction lighting I might be interested there. Or if you can get a deal on UVL Red Suns that are actually in stock.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I know pr0f was working on a fixture prototype. He seems to be MIA. I will PM him and see if I get a response. Quantum BB has vent slots in the reflectors.
> 
> I am in S FL, my room does not have ac, and don't have any extreme heat issues that a strong floor fan can't solve, but I am not growing in a close quarter tent. The space above my diy frame is open + high ceiling. Banquet tents (with pyramid ceiling) are available under $200. Lowes sells 4 x 8 @ 2" insulated panels: one side is reflector material. Super easy to make a 3-4 sided 4 X 4 X 8 tent (or double wide) with open ceiling to vent hot air.


BTW, just curious, do you do odor control at all? The whole room instead of the tent, or what? I know Florida is not exactly a 'friendly' place for these sorts of things so I figured you must have the whole room filtered...?


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## cjd (Mar 30, 2012)

Ok here we go. I have some UVL 48" 660nm engineering samples available from the factory who wants in? The only requirement are detailed journals and feedback.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

cjd said:


> Ok here we go. I have some UVL 48" 660nm engineering samples available from the factory who wants in?


Hmmm... PF was saying the same thing. What kind of availability are we talking about? This is a website dedicated to cultivation of a legally-questionable plant so I'm not really keen on passing shipping addresses out... do you have a storefront or something we can work through?

Sorry, a little paranoid, just trying to figure out the safest way to handle this...


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## cjd (Mar 30, 2012)

I was thinking the same thing. No I don't have a store front yet. I could but this just happened I wasn't ready. I just called the factory to locate a local dealer and the lead scientist happened to pick up the phone. In this case you are testing a new tube for a product line that will be available everywhere. These are hand made and not in production yet so they are it. I am talking in the mail Monday or Tuesday. I can speak to him on Monday re drop shipping. How can I PM on this site? I can't find the button. I agree I would prefer to not put everything that needs to be discussed up here.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

cjd said:


> I was thinking the same thing. No I don't have a store front yet. I could but this just happened I wasn't ready. I just called the factory to locate a local dealer and the lead scientist happened to pick up the phone. In this case you are testing a new tube for a product line that will be available everywhere. I can speak to him on Monday re drop shipping. How can I PM on this site? I can't find the button. I agree I would prefer to not put everything that needs to be discussed up here.


Click on the user name next to the post, a little drop down comes down, select private message.

Feel free to contact me, I'd definitely take a couple of them for testing. We were asking PF but did not get an answer: is this a straight 660nm spike like in a Red Sun or is it a tri-band like a flora sun? And if it's a straight spike, can he get us a graph or something so we can see how big and where the spike falls exactly?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 30, 2012)

Ive been doing some side by side stuff and I gotta tell you guys now that im at day 20 of Flower, the fixture with Flora Suns and Agrogrows is about neck and neck with the full Par light. Will be interesting to see what happens going into weeks 4-5.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

cjd, definite hit me up via PM. I can have you ship to somewhere else just to be safe, in fact.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Ive been doing some side by side stuff and I gotta tell you guys now that im at day 20 of Flower, the fixture with Flora Suns and Agrogrows is about neck and neck with the full Par light. Will be interesting to see what happens going into weeks 4-5.


Lucius, sorry if you already posted this, but can you summarize the precise bulb line up for each unit?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Mar 30, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Lucius, sorry if you already posted this, but can you summarize the precise bulb line up for each unit?


El Cheapo setp:

Agrogrow BLOOM bulbs mixed with Flora Suns 8 bulb Bad Boy...ag/flora/ag/flora/ag/flora/ag/flora

Par:

Red Sun, Flora Sun, 454nm, Actinic, red sun, fiji purp, 454, flora

Something like that. Im not there right now so I don't know for sure but can write it down next time im at my grow.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> El Cheapo setp:
> 
> Agrogrow BLOOM bulbs mixed with Flora Suns 8 bulb Bad Boy...ag/flora/ag/flora/ag/flora/ag/flora
> 
> ...


Cool man... I like the flora suns a lot and I wouldn't be surprised if you could almost get away with a straight flora sun grow, so I am not surprised to hear you're doing well with that half and half setup


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2012)

Ok this round is going to take a week longer than I originally thought. Last time they were done in 8 weeks. Now it looks like its going to.be 9 weeks. Weird.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Ok this round is going to take a week longer than I originally thought. Last time they were done in 8 weeks. Now it looks like its going to.be 9 weeks. Weird.


Conditions the same? Same seeds/clones or what have you? Maybe a difference in temperature due to the winter months?


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

jaytoker said:


> What would be the best bulb for veg and flower combined? I've done quite a bit of skimming through this thread and have yet to find an answer. All I really want is one bulb type that can be purchased at a reasonable price. No mixing blues and reds ect. The only thing (I've yet to find anyways) was fiji purple or something. Haven't had enough time to properly research the subject or read all 300 sum odd pages of this thread. Your help would be greatly appreciated.


Keep an eye on Lucius's grow with the combo of standard bulbs with florasuns. This is the simplest setup I've seen so far. I feel like you could get away with strait flora suns even, in theory.

Honestly, you can just use strandard grow and bloom bulbs... one switch out, pretty easy... and they usually come with the fixtures.

I mean, to be fair, this thread really isn't about what you're after at all. You could easily attain what you want by just alternating grow and bloom bulbs across a fixture. But I'm not so sure you're going to get anywhere near the quality possible to attain with more advanced arrangements.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

cjd said:


> I was thinking the same thing. No I don't have a store front yet. I could but this just happened I wasn't ready. I just called the factory to locate a local dealer and the lead scientist happened to pick up the phone. In this case you are testing a new tube for a product line that will be available everywhere. These are hand made and not in production yet so they are it. I am talking in the mail Monday or Tuesday. I can speak to him on Monday re drop shipping. How can I PM on this site? I can't find the button. I agree I would prefer to not put everything that needs to be discussed up here.


Word, you've got PM's bro


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 30, 2012)

jaytoker said:


> What would be the best bulb for veg and flower combined? I've done quite a bit of skimming through this thread and have yet to find an answer. All I really want is one bulb type that can be purchased at a reasonable price. No mixing blues and reds ect. The only thing (I've yet to find anyways) was fiji purple or something. Haven't had enough time to properly research the subject or read all 300 sum odd pages of this thread. Your help would be greatly appreciated.


click the little blue square arrows >> for the links to each post


Undercover Cop said:


> Anyway, T5 and PAR growing for beginners... (was in response to others questions so they're adressing them)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Conditions the same? Same seeds/clones or what have you? Maybe a difference in temperature due to the winter months?


The conditions and strains are the same. The only thing I did different was adding more perlite to soil making it 50/50 mix. The buds are bigger than last batch too. I attribute that to more oxygen to the roots from more perlite.


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## AltarNation (Mar 30, 2012)

hyroot said:


> The conditions and strains are the same. The only thing I did different was adding more perlite to soil making it 50/50 mix. The buds are bigger than last batch too. I attribute that to more oxygen to the roots from more perlite.


Cool... well I dunno what's up with the extra time but if the buds are getting bigger I say that's a fair compromise


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## Undercover Cop (Mar 30, 2012)

I cant stop ... 2 more 2ftx4bulb Hydrofarm panels and 12 more tubes coming... AquaticLife makes a 460/620nm purple tube I got a few of just to try, no spd published but I figured 620 is pretty close to 630... Ill take one for the team and try em, will be for nursery/vegging only, 2 purples and 2 florasuns


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## kpmarine (Mar 31, 2012)

Has anyone seen reasonable priced end-caps or ballasts for T5 lighting? I want to wire up my own under-lighting, but I'm fairly poor.


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## hyroot (Mar 31, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Has anyone seen reasonable priced end-caps or ballasts for T5 lighting? I want to wire up my own under-lighting, but I'm fairly poor.



http://www.hellolights.com/t5fluorescentdiyparts.aspx


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## PetFlora (Mar 31, 2012)

cjd said:


> I was thinking the same thing. No I don't have a store front yet. I could but this just happened I wasn't ready. I just called the factory to locate a local dealer and the lead scientist happened to pick up the phone. In this case you are testing a new tube for a product line that will be available everywhere. These are hand made and not in production yet so they are it. I am talking in the mail Monday or Tuesday. I can speak to him on Monday re drop shipping. How can I PM on this site? I can't find the button. I agree I would prefer to not put everything that needs to be discussed up here.


Hmmmm. I have been in close contact with Jeff Saghy at UVL for several months, who says HE spearheads the 660 project. I was hoping to get a couple free bulbs in exchange for info provided and some postings. Once the bulbs arrived last week, he shot me an email telling me they are $25 per. I reminded him of goods exchanged for postings. He came back saying he went to the CEO who said no freebies. I declined. And they could have put 2 into the package I received from them yesterday with my finally replaced 3 Red Lifes. So I'm guessing that they had no takers at $25 per, and coincidentally, you called.

Part of me wants to give Jeff a piece of my mind, but will keep quiet for now to see whether you actually get free bulbs. I definitely want 2 660s, if they are free.


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## PetFlora (Mar 31, 2012)

jaytoker said:


> What would be the best bulb for veg and flower combined? I've done quite a bit of skimming through this thread and have yet to find an answer. All I really want is one bulb type that can be purchased at a reasonable price. No mixing blues and reds ect. The only thing (I've yet to find anyways) was fiji purple or something. Haven't had enough time to properly research the subject or read all 300 sum odd pages of this thread. Your help would be greatly appreciated.


I guess you never heard the phrase _"Jack of All trades, a Master of None"_. Why do farmers plant in the Spring and harvest in the Fall? The Suns light is completely different, as are weather conditions. The slight warmth combined with blue dominant sun rays is conducive to growing seedlings into plants, whereas cooler weather and warmer spectrums are conducive to flower/fruits. Without these differences neither plants nor fruits will reach their genetic potential. 

Next, we now know that Sats prefer blue dom light, whereas Indicas prefer red dom. So your choice of plant alone will have an impact. 

Lets use ZooMed FloraSuns as an example: decent blue and vg red through 650. You may be able to get away with 650 during veg, but it is likely to send plants into flower *prematurely*. It's a great bulb to introduce near the end of the grow stage for say ~ 2 weeks then compliment with Red Lifes (630) + 660s assuming they Ge R Dun.  Adding Coral waves provides uvB + IR which are very important in small quantities.

What's my point? This thread is about how to *max yield AND quality*. You don't get that by expecting one bulb to do all be all.


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## PetFlora (Mar 31, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> BTW, just curious, do you do odor control at all? The whole room instead of the tent, or what? I know Florida is not exactly a 'friendly' place for these sorts of things so I figured you must have the whole room filtered...?


No odor control. House sits well away from nosy noses. If it was an issue I would get a scrubber for the room


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## AltarNation (Mar 31, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> No odor control. House sits well away from nosy noses. If it was an issue I would get a scrubber for the room


Coolies... guess you don't have a lot of house guests?  Or do you vent out a window and the house stays fresh otherwise? I have a nice spot for keeping away from noses for the most part, but still worry about house guests and maintenance people and stuff like that!


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## AltarNation (Mar 31, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I guess you never heard the phrase _"Jack of All trades, a Master of None"_. Why do farmers plant in the Spring and harvest in the Fall? The Suns light is completely different, as are weather conditions. The slight warmth combined with blue dominant sun rays is conducive to growing seedlings into plants, whereas cooler weather and warmer spectrums are conducive to flower/fruits. Without these differences neither plants nor fruits will reach their genetic potential.
> 
> Next, we now know that Sats prefer blue dom light, whereas Indicas prefer red dom. So your choice of plant alone will have an impact.
> 
> ...


Good post. ++ agree!! This thread is not for those looking to take the easy road!

One question, I never haerd that Sativas prefer blue dominant! Is that for veg only or both?? Still should swing towards red for flowering right? Just not as far as you would with indicas or something?


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## hyroot (Mar 31, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Hmmmm. I have been in close contact with Jeff Saghy at UVL for several months, who says HE spearheads the 660 project. I was hoping to get a couple free bulbs in exchange for info provided and some postings. Once the bulbs arrived last week, he shot me an email telling me they are $25 per. I reminded him of goods exchanged for postings. He came back saying he went to the CEO who said no freebies. I declined. And they could have put 2 into the package I received from them yesterday with my finally replaced 3 Red Lifes. So I'm guessing that they had no takers at $25 per, and coincidentally, you called.
> 
> Part of me wants to give Jeff a piece of my mind, but will keep quiet for now to see whether you actually get free bulbs. I definitely want 2 660s, if they are free.


So does that mean they are done with the testing phase? Will be in stores soon? Once a price is figured out.....


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## AltarNation (Mar 31, 2012)

hyroot said:


> So does that mean they are done with the testing phase? Will be in stores soon? Once a price is figured out.....


Sounds like we're about to enter the first phase of hands-on testing but that they are going to charge us 25 dollars a bulb to do so. Not sure what the logic is there, honestly, but I'm willing to pay for all-red bulbs so what ever. Cost just as much for the Red Lifes.

I'm talking to cjd about possibly getting at least a guarantee with that... so that if the 660nm bulbs fail maybe they could be replaced with the same number of UVL Red Lifes as a guarantee.


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## cjd (Mar 31, 2012)

hyroot,
This would be the 1st and maybe the only needed "real world" test. If nothing comes up in our testing you are testing what will be sold. The line is a couple of months out. The 25.00 +/- should be the retail price. This is only part of an entire line of Horticulture bulbs and will not be sold thru their current dealers. There are 4 more that have not been spoken for. They are exactly 658nm 54w @48" and they are 25.00 ea.


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## AltarNation (Mar 31, 2012)

Thumbs up cjd... someone take those last 4 so we can see some action


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## hammer21 (Mar 31, 2012)

Have some questions for the t5 pros getting ready to launch my dual 16 bulb badboys after reading this whole thread got questions 
1.trying to get the perfect par with multi different spectrums bulbs is this hurting the grow because you have to raise the lights so high to get the mixture you are after by doing this you are getting less lumens?
2. Would it be better to use just 2 types of bulbs with the spectrum you are after may not be perfect but close and get better lumens?
3. A lot of places are selling 46 inch bulbs and 48 inch bulbs all say 54 watt are some measuring the bulbs and some are measuring the fixture are they the same and will all fit my badboys?
thanks all


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## PetFlora (Mar 31, 2012)

*Hammer:* The fixtrures are 48". I have a BB, it uses 46" bulbs, they are 54 watts

I am using 3 different bulbs in veg (total of 6) Once they bulk up, I will add 2 more bulbs


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## PetFlora (Mar 31, 2012)

To pay $50 for the 660s when FloraSuns already have a nice 650-700 spike did not make sense to me for my 8 bulb set up- 6 of which cover a broad red range. Now if I was starting from scratch, I would not have a variety of bulbs I now have.

ZooMed FloraSuns (nice 650-660 + tapering off into 700) + Red Lifes (630) + Coral Waves with small but useful 700+. This combination already provides a strong wide red band plus sufficient B/G during flower

I would need to replace my FloraSuns with maybe UVL AquaSuns (good B/G spike) or ATI Special Blue Actinic (both of which I have) to fill in the B/G that the FloraSuns also provide- then use the Red Lifes + 660s + Coral Waves. I think these 2 bulbs sets would make for a good A/B, but for me it requires another 8 bulb fixture to run a ligit side-by-side ++++ more plants. Now if they gave me the bulbs, I would begin to put that together


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## PetFlora (Mar 31, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Has anyone seen reasonable priced end-caps or ballasts for T5 lighting? I want to wire up my own under-lighting, but I'm fairly poor.


Go back into this thread. Pr0f posted a place for kits/parts


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## kpmarine (Mar 31, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Go back into this thread. Pr0f posted a place for kits/parts


I have no trouble finding parts, I was seeing if anyone knew a place that was particularly low-priced.


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## hyroot (Mar 31, 2012)

So how do we or I go about getting these uvl 660 bulbs......? whether be testers or not. Even before I ever order anything online. I read everything I can find on a store and/or site that I can find. To see if they're reputable or not. Im very weary of where I buy from.


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## AltarNation (Mar 31, 2012)

hyroot, cjd has been discussing an arrangement with me via PM but I can't vouch for his legitimacy. I'm honestly probably just going to risk it and hope paypal saves my ass if it ends up being a scam or something. None the less, he's looking for someone to take the last of what he has available. It would be nice if we had some way of being assured of his legitimacy but I don't know what can be done really.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 1, 2012)

Fliping the switch tomarrow after I wake up. Changed bulbs to flower today and finished getting my spidermites (Damed clones) sorted out for the time being. Now to pray they dont come back and put me on the defense again. Tomarrow gonna set up my SLR camera and take new photos with the great lenses instead of my Iphone like my last few have been. Planing on making a time laps of the Flowering cycle I think. I am not enjoying these last two days. Fighting spider mites, not being able to smoke since I have a DT before my interview with Apple on tuesday. Yay for cleansers, now I just hope it works lol. Post more tomarrow.


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## PetFlora (Apr 1, 2012)

AN: UV Lighting is a for real company. I have had many discussions with Jeff Saghy. It was his idea to develop a line of horticulture bulbs. They would have sold me direct. You could call them direct as easily as cjd did. 

*jsam:* When you get clones, place in a bag, and dust them in DE. Remove and put stems in water. After 15 minutes, shake off the DE and submerge them in 3% H2O2 for like 5-10 minutes. That should kill damn near anything, and totally non-toxic.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 1, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> AN: UV Lighting is a for real company. I have had many discussions with Jeff Saghy. It was his idea to develop a line of horticulture bulbs. They would have sold me direct. You could call them direct as easily as cjd did.


It's not UVL I'm worried about, but the poster with 15 posts who claims to be able to middle man.  (no offense cjd, just being cautious) But you're right, I could call up UVL and ask them about whether or not this arrangement is already in progress. That could ease my mind for sure. I'm not sure who cjd's been speaking with though... he didn't indicate it was the same guy as you necessarily. I guess I'll just call them up and ask about a direct purchase arrangement for the ones I was going to grab, that would be safer.


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## AltarNation (Apr 1, 2012)

Hey PF, I am trying to respond to your PM but your box is full.  Clear some out so I can send ya a response


----------



## PetFlora (Apr 1, 2012)

Done If it's to say thank you, no need. you're welcome


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 1, 2012)

*jsam:* When you get clones, place in a bag, and dust them in DE. Remove and put stems in water. After 15 minutes, shake off the DE and submerge them in 3% H2O2 for like 5-10 minutes. That should kill damn near anything, and totally non-toxic.
[/QUOTE]

I am not gonna take clones. I can get this strain again if I need from the same person (in seed form next time.) I will start from seed next go round. I have about 7 diff strains of seeds right now. Am thinkiong of doing some blue cheese next. Thank you for the advice though.


----------



## jsamuel24 (Apr 1, 2012)

Hello fellow PAR/PUR folks. Today is the great day of the 12/12 flip on my Fire OG girls. Have been dealing with a spider mite issue for a few days. Anyways, this is the transition food that I am using. Following the constant feeding cycle of it with a water flush every 3rd feeding. 

Here is a shot up at the lights, allthough at the angle you cant see the 6th light lol.

And here are the girls. Going to keep feeding through the scrog for the next week or so. After the dark period today its time to start tucking again.


As allways comments and sugestions are allways and greatly appreciated. Only my second grow and I wouldnt even call my first grow a grow. It was pathetic. I think I will start up a grow journal since I am planing on doing a timelapse of its growth, but I will still post my weeklies up here. Thanks for all the assistance so far. Coming to RIU has completly changed my grow from the last one to this one and it has been mostly due to this thread.


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## novice11 (Apr 1, 2012)

Hi pr0fesseur just saw the entry about your custom bulbs made in USA. I tried to PM you but got:

pr0fesseur has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.

Please make some room for my PM! Thanks


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## kpmarine (Apr 1, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Hi pr0fesseur just saw the entry about your custom bulbs made in USA. I tried to PM you but got:
> 
> pr0fesseur has exceeded their stored private messages quota and cannot accept further messages until they clear some space.
> 
> Please make some room for my PM! Thanks


He's been absent for quite some time. Hopefully getting these bulbs to happen.


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## hyroot (Apr 2, 2012)

Good read


http://m.jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/376/1935.full


http://www.interestingengineering.com/2012/03/sunlight-powered-bulbs-made-from.html?m=1


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## PetFlora (Apr 2, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Good read
> 
> 
> http://m.jxb.oxfordjournals.org/content/53/376/1935.full
> ...


*Seems to suggest using molasses during mid flower is worth experimenting

*


----------



## BigBuddahCheese (Apr 2, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Sorry to everyone!!! I had some of my belongings removed by the authorities! however remember to have something available to prove your innocence i suggest TRUECRYPT ROFL!! so cops took my laptop and found my tent but nothing was in it THANK GOD! i had killed them due to a Mite issue i was having. Everything is up and running and i am posting new pics today! The shorter plant is sharks breath and the taller plant is Kandy Kush... I bought fem seeds and am testing the strains for my setup as you can see Kandy Kush is my new winner! i also have some fem super lemon haze !! I tested 3 varieties one didnt germ after 2 seeds so its out! debating on making a mother.. BTW Kandy Kush is a great topper and sharks breath... i have a BUNCH of tops as you can see.. If anyone asks whats my yeild ... im really not after a yeild.. sounds crazy im trying to test out topping, LST and grooming.. my last plants as you can see were all LST trained! i use a pinch method and the stems bend on their own.. and every day ill push the branches down gently to promote central growth on all nodes!
> View attachment 1611519View attachment 1611528View attachment 1611527View attachment 1611526View attachment 1611525View attachment 1611524View attachment 1611523View attachment 1611522View attachment 1611521View attachment 1611520View attachment 1611529



You sound like a smart individual, the cops raid you find nothing yet you start back up few days later in same spot? Umm.. I am beginning to doubt your intelligence on this and any other matter if you are lacking common sense.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

BigBuddahCheese said:


> You sound like a smart individual, the cops raid you find nothing yet you start back up few days later in same spot? Umm.. I am beginning to doubt your intelligence on this and any other matter if you are lacking common sense.


Valid point, but you are making an assumption as he did not say he started back up in the same spot... just that things were up and running again...

Then again, we haven't heard from pr0f recently and I certainly hope he's alright!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> He's been absent for quite some time. Hopefully getting these bulbs to happen.



He'll be back to sell you guys something eventually


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 2, 2012)

Day 21 Flower experimental grow

[video=youtube;eVB1LyROGkU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVB1LyROGkU[/video]


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## hyroot (Apr 2, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *Seems to suggest using molasses during mid flower is worth experimenting
> 
> *


I use molasses all through veg, flower, and flushing, except for last watering. I also feed only guano / compost teas every watering. So I have to use molasses to feed the bacteria. Its also carbs for the plant. Has small amounts of nutes. Iron, potassium, calcium magnesium. Some have trace amounts of nitrogen. It's all completely organic. It brings out great smell, flavor, trichome production and its a chelating agent too.

You can make some dank cookies with it too.


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## hyroot (Apr 2, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Day 21 Flower experimental grow
> 
> [video=youtube;eVB1LyROGkU]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVB1LyROGkU[/video]


Looks great. Good music selection too.


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## ValleGrown (Apr 2, 2012)

What's up with the girl thats almost yellow? Or is that the light?


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## infinitalus (Apr 2, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Id still love to see the SPD (or planned spd) for the new 660. Just to see how wide the spike is. RedSuns cover something like 622-640 or so, Itd be nice to have a really wide peak for the 660s. A peak from 625-670 would be Tits AND Ass. That bulb would replace RedSuns all together IMO.


Hey guys, been trolling this forum for a while and I thought it was time to say hi 

I definitely agree with this statement, but the spectral graph will be the determining factor for sure.

I first purchased my T5 set up at the beginning of February, and it literally took just under 2 months for the back-ordered Red Suns to get here. I also had a couple of defective lamps and then a set of broken lamps through Aquarium Specialty, but their customer service is top-notch. Kelly, Scott, and Kristen are all excellent people to work with on their team. I will be doing business with them again in the future.

My lighting setup is an 8 bulb grosite fixture with lamps targeted for the flowering spectrum. My current set up goes like this: UVL454/KZFijiPurple/RedSun/FijiPurple/RedSun/KZFijiPurple/KZFijiPurple/ATICoralPlus. I know I need more red, and I have been working with Jeff at UVL. Since I had to wait so long for the Red Suns, he is sending me one of the 660nm engineering samples that he just got in to see how the results go. I spoke with him today, he says that he is supposed to have the spectral graph data live on their website by the end of the week. He will be shipping 2 super actinics with that 660. I want to switch out the Coral Plus for a Super Actinic. Once I receive my shipment of lamps, my setup will be like this: SuperActinic/FijiPurple/660/FijiPurple/RedSun/FijiPurple/454/RedSun

I believe this is the absolute best PAR lighting setup available on the market. (or if the 660 spectral graph boasts better results than the already rare RedSun lamps, swap them out) However, I have a feeling there may be enough of an imbalance between the wavelength output between the RedSuns and the 660's which will cause the need for both. Looking at the blue side of the spectrum, it takes three different lamps to effectively target the 420-460nm range in force. The 454, SuperActinic, and the Fiji are a rock solid combination for the blue and the small amount of green that is needed. The RedSun has a REALLY strong 620-630 spike, and tiny spikes which barely compliments the rest of the spectrum. I am REALLY excited to see the 660 data and to put it to the test. I will be sure to share the first-hand results with the community here as well.

I learned a lot of things from this place while I was trolling on the internet for useful information on my first grow. This single topic really saved my hide when making a decision as to whether or not I wanted to continue growing after my first run. The results were varied for multiple reasons but the biggest issue was heat output from HPS lighting. My temps went from 85F-88F to 72F-78F depending on the day after having a full fixture of T5 lamps running for several hours. Problem solved. My next biggest issue was grow space itself. I was getting tired of having to constantly adjust my grow space and equipment and setting it up took several hours to 2 or 3 days depending on the project. After doing research, I bought a 4'x8' mylar lined growtent with military grade zippers, multiple ported slots for venting (I dont really use the vent slots though, I utilize CO2) which can also remain lightproof if properly sealed. The hollowed steel bars for structural support can hold up to 120lbs on the top crossbars to hold lighting. Cost: $190 shipped. Effort: 2 hours of labor with a couple of buddies and a 30 rack of PBR. The 4x8 space is perfect for 12 plants, and can fit 2 of these lighting fixtures to accommodate 6 plants on either side of the tent. Simply put, I LOVE this tent. I will be buying more in the future for sure. Since I am my own caregiver in Michigan, I am only entitled 12 plants (including clones and seedlings) unless I have registered patients. I am staying within State law. I don't really want to go to jail. I've never been arrested and dont want to be, let alone have some assholes smash my equipment and destroy my hard work.

I am finishing up my second grow attempt. The *assumed* genetics I have are Blueberry yum yum, Big Bud, Himalayan Gold, and I found a single seed in a REALLY tasty AK Variant bud that I got from another person. According to him, he had 8oz of it and didnt find a single seed. I popped it into some dirt on 09/11/2011 and it sprouted. Some time later, it was a presexing female. It grew quite symmetrically, but due to faulty equipment and poor conditions the end result was less than anything considerable. I successfully took some clones before inducing flowering and I am giving them a second chance. If I can get the end result to be anywhere near as good as the bud it came from, I will be really pleased. I will be eliminating the rest of the genes and purchasing feminized seeds from attitude seed bank in the near future. I want them on hand when I begin harvesting in about 2 or 3 months.

With targeting every single aspect that a plant can benefit from with the enhancement of science and growing methods along with a cautious and competent caretaker, the yield and the quality should be superior if not elite compared to commercial methods and greenhouses. PAR lighting, LST, CO2 enrichment, nutrient feeding, and environment control is the way to go.

I only recently came up with an efficient and effective system for myself to log data on plants, and will be implementing this system on my next grow which will be after I move in or around July. I am not using the system now since Im already so far into the grow. Once I get things going again, Ill be keeping a detailed and organized journal.

My first grow produced about 7.5oz dry out of 12 plants. This grow I want to see atleast 12 oz, considering I am experimenting with LST on only 2 of my 12 plants. My next grow, I want to be able to expand with enough equipment to have a patient under my wing with equipment and material to support it. Thats a $3,000 investment though after doing all of the math, heh. If I am running 12 plants next run, I want to see atleast 25 ounces by effectively utilizing LST. If I have that patient, I want to see atleast 50.

Ill be following and trolling this thread as always


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 2, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> What's up with the girl thats almost yellow? Or is that the light?


Not 100% sure but the Cal Mag was kicked up as well as a Nitrogen boost. Should be good by next weeks vid.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

Guys, I've been in contact with Jeff at UVL and he says he will have a SPD chart and time tables for proper usage by the end of the week.

Oops, didn't read Infinatulus' post before i posted this! Great minds think alike. That's a confirmation, we should have charts by the end of the week.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 2, 2012)

BTW if we don't get at least 24z out of the 18 plants we will have a bunch of Bad Boy fixtures and bulbs for sale soon for you guys with more time to waste


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> BTW if we don't get at least 24z out of the 18 plants we will have a bunch of Bad Boy fixtures and bulbs for sale soon for you guys with more time to waste


I think it's doable... I pulled a total of 10 oz. off 7 plants, and I had no idea what I was doing... so...


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I think it's doable... I pulled a total of 10 oz. off 7 plants, and I had no idea what I was doing... so...


How long were yours in veg though? i did a 4 week veg only after clones took root and i transfered. Wanted to get this test underway with the side by side T5's.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

Maybe a little longer, but I was growing them pretty badly, lol. Water stress, heat stress issues. I think I vegged maybe 6 weeks from seed. Your plants look pretty big to me... but I LST'd mine as I went so it's hard to get an accurate comparison.

Also, I guess it was more like 9.5 oz when I think about it.

Oh, and I definitely harvested early. I think I would have seen more weight if I gave it more time.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Maybe a little longer, but I was growing them pretty badly, lol. Water stress, heat stress issues. I think I vegged maybe 6 weeks from seed. Your plants look pretty big to me... but I LST'd mine as I went so it's hard to get an accurate comparison.
> 
> Also, I guess it was more like 9.5 oz when I think about it.
> 
> Oh, and I definitely harvested early. I think I would have seen more weight if I gave it more time.



I've been going back and forth with my thoughts on light height as well. Part of me likes keeping them about 3" off the top but the other part of me thinks the spectrum blends better when I keep it more like 10" off the top. So i've been keeping it 6"


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

Yeah I hear ya. Hard to say what's better on that. I like to give them a little extra space to keep the heat of the bulbs away from the buds... and the spectrum blend is a bonus. I would have them 1-3" if I could do it, but since my fixture is retrofitted with a couple extra tubes that hang lower than the rest, I inevitably have them a bit farther off. I'd say the middle tubes are about 2-3" from the buds but the rest inevitably fall closer to 4-6".

BTW I am psyched at the size increases I'm seeing on my buds, but the vegging airpots seem to have slowed down. I am not sure if they've reached capacity and are ready for transplant or if it's because they are sort of outgrowing the 4-bulb light or what... but I got some bigger airpots to put them in so I will transplant soon and see how they react to that. I am also considering tearing those two retrofitted bulbs out of the flowering room and putting them in the veg chamber.

I flipped the veg chamber's light to the side lighting position, so I'm rotating the plants every day to get even light now. Can't wait to harvest so I can get those ladies fully covered again, from both sides. Now I'm just torn on whether I should set up the new flowering run in the closet or my tent... closet is so hard to get at the plants in, and is an eve closet so one of the walls is diagonal, cramping space as they grow up taller... on the other hand, the tent is easy to get and has no diagonal wall impeding vertical space, but has a smaller footprint. (closet is about a 4x3.5' footprint while the tent is 4x2)

Agh... got to settle on it soon so I can set up the new fan and filter before I put more lights in either way... (Right now the closet is just open air, because they don't stink much yet and the 4-bulb T5's put off almost no heat compared to the bigger setup)

I'm gonna take some new pics for you guys today, just to show off me buds  infact, brb.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> BTW if we don't get at least 24z out of the 18 plants we will have a bunch of Bad Boy fixtures and bulbs for sale soon for you guys with more time to waste


Well this puts me in a spot. I want you to succeed...but those sweet, sweet, discount fixtures call to me...


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Well this puts me in a spot. I want you to succeed...but those sweet, sweet, discount fixtures call to me...


LOL, hahaha.

I love how active this thread is. T5 Nation! haha.

Here's some pics I just took... first the buds, then the veg chamber:




New fim job on tallest plant, decided she was gonna have to join the others in multi-cola-dom after all due to outgrowing the rest:


Love this shot, this is one of the older fims from straight above... perfect X:


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## hyroot (Apr 2, 2012)

I used to keep my light 10 inches away for spectrum blend. Half way through a batch, 3 batches ago I dropped it to.3 inches away. Got much better results. Each batch the buds get bigger and better. Closer- more intenisty. we covered the whole thing about inverse square law a while ago.

Yield mainly depends on strain. I have 1 strain thats a sativa dominant hybrid. It will easily pull 2 oz with not doing much. But my pure indicas. I hve to tie down and super crop to get 1 oz and veg for 4 weeks. If veg for 8 weeks. They pull 1.5 oz.

Next week im putting my first par sog into flower. 24 1 gal in the place of 6 big girls. 48 x 18. 4 plants per sq ft. Im aiming at 14g per plant. That will double my yield with only tops.


P.S. A while ago I tried empire soil and said it was great. I was sadly mestaken. Its apparently an ammending soil and runs hot like super soil. Eventually leaves cuppled tough and looked like venus fly traps. They came out of it in flower.

Ive tried, ocean forest, empire, dr earth, sunshine mix, happy frog , roots coco. Now im doing root organic original 
soil. So far I like this one the most. Everything is so lush and vegging fast. I love that it has a ton of chunky perlite in it.


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## hyroot (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> LOL, hahaha.
> 
> I love how active this thread is. T5 Nation! haha.
> 
> ...


Like button.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 2, 2012)

Looks good.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 2, 2012)

Looks Awsome A.N.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

Nice Altar, how long left on those buds? They're looking good. Sadly, I must smack some other folks with the rep stick before I can +1 you again.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 2, 2012)

Oh yeah, forgot to mention. Went ahead and started a grow journal so I wouldnt overload this thread with pics every few days. will still post my pics here every 2 weeks or so so folks can see my test results when they study T5 Better then LED setups.

Cheers


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Nice Altar, how long left on those buds? They're looking good. Sadly, I must smack some other folks with the rep stick before I can +1 you again.


I don't know really... it's bag seed and I have no predictable window. They are clones from my last batch, but I don't even know which plants the came from so... shrug! (I had 7 random bag seed plants) haha. Last time I gave them about 8-9 weeks I think, but they could have gone a bit longer. (I harvested early because I was impatient and was worried they would over-ripen while I was out of town for Christmas... in retrospect, they could have gone a couple more weeks comfortably I think.)

I am tracking this batch a lot better... I started 12/12 almost exactly 2 mo's ago, (Feb 6th) but realistically should probably track from about a week after that when they started showing flowers, so I figure this is about week 7. I also kind of stunted their development because I scrog'd them two weeks AFTER they started flowering (whoops) around Feb 22nd.

Sooo... I figure they should be finishing up within the next couple weeks if all goes well. I might let them go a bit longer, though, because the 8-9 weeks I gave them the first batch was a slightly premature harvest.

Wow, that's a long winded answer. Haha. I am GUESSING somewhere around 2 weeks left.

--

My vegging batch are 5 seedlings from the nicest of that first batch of plants, which happened to also be the slowest to ripen, haha. The most sativa looking of the strains, and also the most trichome-laden. So those should take even longer.  I'm going to transplant those (probably tomorrow) into some larger air pots, then they will go the last 2 weeks or so in veg while the others finish up. Then I am moving the veg fixture in with the flowering fixture for these next five ladies to flower with a full 14-bulb setup, which will be all vertical. (4 on one side, 8 on the other, two retrofitted tubes floating in the middle between the plant "rows"... which will really be a sort of staggering with 2 on the 4-tube side and 3 on the 8-tube side.)


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Oh yeah, forgot to mention. Went ahead and started a grow journal so I wouldnt overload this thread with pics every few days. will still post my pics here every 2 weeks or so so folks can see my test results when they study T5 Better then LED setups.
> 
> Cheers


Nice, subbed your journal.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Nice, subbed your journal.


Thanks, allways great to get advice from folks in the good old Del Norte. Heh, my mom grew up in Del Norte. I love fishing up there.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I don't know really... it's bag seed and I have no predictable window. They are clones from my last batch, but I don't even know which plants the came from so... shrug! (I had 7 random bag seed plants) haha. Last time I gave them about 8-9 weeks I think, but they could have gone a bit longer.
> 
> I am tracking this batch a lot better... I started 12/12 almost exactly 2 mo's ago, (Feb 6th) but realistically should probably track from about a week after that when they started showing flowers, so I figure this is about week 7. I also kind of stunted their development because I scrog'd them two weeks AFTER they started flowering (whoops) around Feb 22nd.
> 
> ...


The best answers are rarely short. haha I think I have about a week and a half left on my plants, tops. All the hairs are turning finally. This is mid week 7 for me. All my strains are supposed to be about 8-9 weeks on average.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Thanks, allways great to get advice from folks in the good old Del Norte. Heh, my mom grew up in Del Norte. I love fishing up there.


Yeah, I'm damn near spitting distance from lake shasta. Haven't been here long, but did some fishing last fall. Looks like a promising place to get a line wet.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Yeah, I'm damn near spitting distance from lake shasta. Haven't been here long, but did some fishing last fall. Looks like a promising place to get a line wet.


Shasta is awsome, took my boat up there 2 times last year. The Klamath is also great starting about Memorial Day. Nice Salmon come out of there. Much better then the salmon we get out of our river down here.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

hey guys just got a 4 bulb t5 whats the best bulb setup? i was thinking 2 12000k wave points and 2 coral growth accelerators? and untill i can afford them i was gonna use 2 actinic bulbs that came with the light uknown brand(faded) and 2 4100k sylvania bulbs from menards as they seem to have the best spread a lot of blue and a dash of uva.

sound good for veg?


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 2, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> hey guys just got a 4 bulb t5 whats the best bulb setup? i was thinking 2 12000k wave points and 2 coral growth accelerators? and untill i can afford them i was gonna use 2 actinic bulbs that came with the light uknown brand(faded) and 2 4100k sylvania bulbs from menards as they seem to have the best spread a lot of blue and a dash of uva.
> 
> sound good for veg?



Sounds like it will work pretty well. Much better when you get the better lights of course.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Looks Awsome A.N.


BTW guys thanks for the good feedback... I am not entirely satisfied once again... I am such a perfectionist and every time I find more that could have gone better. I REALLY wish I got the scrog screens on sooner so I had a more even canopy of buds... BUT, still some good buds coming up. Also, I am definitely ready for a genetics change because these buds just don't get THAT big. But I think it is genetic, as these are random bag seeds.

Looking forward to maybe seeing a slightly better yeild on my next batch... and most likely will also be buying yet another fixture (lol) so that I can veg my new sannies seeds. Kolossus here I come...


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Shasta is awsome, took my boat up there 2 times last year. The Klamath is also great starting about Memorial Day. Nice Salmon come out of there. Much better then the salmon we get out of our river down here.


Nice, salmon fishing has been on my list of things to do. I just love how I wander outside and will see deer 10 feet away in my yard. If they keep teasing me, I'm going to have to set a tasty venison trap.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

thanks for response nice shit altarnation. you think this will be on par with 400mh?(the swap) i got a lot growing was gonna add some supplemental but it seem pretty powerful fromwhat my eyes can tell. distance from the floor 36-40 inches good? distance from canopy 6-12 inches? i know these are basic ?s but may as well get them answered before i make the swap and encounter problems.(the area is open area but its basically a 2x4 area)


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thanks for response nice shit altarnation. you think this will be on par with 400mh?(the swap) i got a lot growing was gonna add some supplemental but it seem pretty powerful fromwhat my eyes can tell. distance from the floor 36-40 inches good? distance from canopy 6-12 inches? i know these are basic ?s but may as well get them answered before i make the swap and encounter problems.(the area is open area but its basically a 2x4 area)


Can't really tell you how it will compare to MH, i've never grown with HID at all. As for distance from plants, I like to keep them less than 6" to maximize penetration.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thanks for response nice shit altarnation. you think this will be on par with 400mh?(the swap) i got a lot growing was gonna add some supplemental but it seem pretty powerful fromwhat my eyes can tell. distance from the floor 36-40 inches good? distance from canopy 6-12 inches? i know these are basic ?s but may as well get them answered before i make the swap and encounter problems.(the area is open area but its basically a 2x4 area)


Canopy distance can be as close as you want really, it won't burn your plants. Mine grew into my lights with no problems. The only potential issue is a bit of bleaching if its touching too long. 3" seems to be a happy medium between distance and not having to move the lights up all the time. As for equivalency, I havent used HID, so I can't say. Though 4 HO bulbs would be about 200 watts. With some good bulbs, being right on the plants (The inverse square law is on our side for once.), and the benefit of less much less inefficient light, you should get some good growth.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kp, I saw you mention that before, about no damage to stuff growing into the lights... i haven't quite found that to be true, haha. Minor burns, but permanent damage definitely. I lost the tips of several leaves from growing up into the light. No where near the damage you can get from a stronger light, but still permanent damage to the areas that were physically touching the bulbs. Perhaps you just caught yours sooner. :0]


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 2, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thanks for response nice shit altarnation. you think this will be on par with 400mh?(the swap) i got a lot growing was gonna add some supplemental but it seem pretty powerful fromwhat my eyes can tell. distance from the floor 36-40 inches good? distance from canopy 6-12 inches? i know these are basic ?s but may as well get them answered before i make the swap and encounter problems.(the area is open area but its basically a 2x4 area)


I keep my lights about 2.5-3 inches from the tops of my plants and I havent seen anything bad happen as of yet. I also am only using 3 footers so they may be a bit cooler then 4's


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

remember this is veg not flower and i have used hid for the most part since i strarted(first harvest under t12) but i was under the impression you could have a little distance with t5 i just want to keep my mothers mad bushy, my clones barely have a VEG stage so their growth under the t5 isnt that important


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

as far as damage yeah you just got to catch it soon enough had it happen with t12s plenty of times thx guys about to do the swap tonight


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 2, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thanks for response nice shit altarnation. you think this will be on par with 400mh?(the swap) i got a lot growing was gonna add some supplemental but it seem pretty powerful fromwhat my eyes can tell. distance from the floor 36-40 inches good? distance from canopy 6-12 inches? i know these are basic ?s but may as well get them answered before i make the swap and encounter problems.(the area is open area but its basically a 2x4 area)


T5 is great for sidelighting/supplemental... since it can hang horizontally/sideways you can line your walls with em and get those lower buds some love too... check my thread, I started with a 400wHPS in a cool tube and have slowly migrated to an all T5 setup... will never look back  fuck HID!


I keep my lights as close as I can (on all sides)... I figure if the highest colas arent getting the best/widest spectrum, they're getting more intense light due to their proximity to the bulbs so they will get some benefit from that, then the lower buds are getting a better spread of spectrum so they benefit from that. Honestly I dont see any areas that are struggling, Im rocking out with my spectrum, I think you could do very well with a ratio of 2 FloraSuns-1 CoralWave-1 RedSun/life. FS=RGB, CW=RB, RS=R... sounds like a good ratio to me, and my still developing buds prove it to me!

Pic update soon

And just a reminder to all the new posters here, make sure to vary your tube assortment across your panel... if youre using 2 blue and 2 red, have one of each on each side of your panel, dont put both blues on the same half, you (and your plants) want the bulbs to create a homogeneous/equal glow over the entire footprint, not half/half red/blue. If you have 8 slots and put a blue tube in slot 2, put one in slot 7. Red in slot 1, put one in slot 8 etc... I found the RedSuns very useful to complete the spectrum, but I tried a 4 bulb panel with half RedSuns and my babies quickly grew tall and spindly towards them. They're still good to fill in the spectrum, but if you have 2 on one half of your panel, the colas under that half may grow more spindly than the other side that is under blues and growing slower but bushier. just make em as even as you can, is my humble advise


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

thats the info i needed thx uncover cop for real. whats red sun and what the spectrum for the flora suns? this is a veg bulb setup right? as far as supplemental im just gonna add an 80w t12 flouro.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> kp, I saw you mention that before, about no damage to stuff growing into the lights... i haven't quite found that to be true, haha. Minor burns, but permanent damage definitely. I lost the tips of several leaves from growing up into the light. No where near the damage you can get from a stronger light, but still permanent damage to the areas that were physically touching the bulbs. Perhaps you just caught yours sooner. :0]


If found that you can fuck up a bud if your flower is actually pressed onto a tube, but I dont worry about leaf burn. The leaves will burn/bleach out if left on contact, but it wont stress the whole plant like a hot HID bulb can (I crisped 3 ft worth of sativa my first grow when I thought a 500w HALOGEN light would be good to grow with, yeah lol I know) HID heatstress/burns can damage right down to your babies soul! no recovering from that. But the T5 burns Ive had to my foliage is basically just a white strip across a fan leaf where the contact was made, but the leaf structure is not damaged (the tip of the leaf will remain green where there is a bleached white strip right across it) Ive even found that leaves that are bleached when the plant are young, actually repair themself (or seem to at least, young leaves continue to grow larger and the bleached strip seems to shrink in turn). The point is, T5's operating temp is abt 95deg I think, and HID's are in excess of 150deg. Im only concerned for top colas growing up into the bulbs, otherwise I dont worry about jack  love my T5's! 29 tubes running as of today, soon to be 37!!!! oh and my electricity bill last month (with a 14kBTU 1350w AC running 24/7, in a 2story home) ... = $84!!!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

i think im gonna switch a coral accelerator for a redsun as far as my bulb selection goes


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 2, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thats the info i needed thx uncover cop for real. whats red sun and what the spectrum for the flora suns? this is a veg bulb setup right? as far as supplemental im just gonna add an 80w t12 flouro.



Go back a few pages to post #3176 (#'s are at the top right of each post). between the three links it should give you alot of new info and should catch you up... warning, your head may explode (this thread is for waay advanced T5 users, most are happy with one bulb for grow/bloom) You'll get all the spectral graphs and explanations to common questions.

and no that was for my flowering spectrum, roughly FS/CW/RS/FS repeated. For Veg Im using 50/50 420-460Actinics and FloraSuns (would prob work just as well with 6500k's in place of FS's).


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## pedro420 (Apr 2, 2012)

I know it's not a lot of light and I should be getting a bigger fixture wile I'm in down to.comw wile getting my new house so when I go to set up again I should have upgraded my equiptment and stocked up on supplies for a better go around but just for personal use this should do me rite untill I can grow again if not I got a few auto seeds I can pop and let go for a lil bit 

But here are the girls 
I'm useing 2x flora suns 1x coral wave 1x 3000k 
View attachment 2103422View attachment 2103424 the family 
View attachment 2103426View attachment 2103427View attachment 2103428View attachment 2103429View attachment 2103430View attachment 2103431View attachment 2103432View attachment 2103433


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 2, 2012)

"Like" ^^^ aw shit man I like everything posted before this one one big blanket "LIKE"! feel my love everyone!!! *now go clean up lol


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

have you seen the spectrum charts for the 4100 phillips 54w t5 its got a pretty good spread im thinking those the coral growth accelerator or 1200k and a red sun? i think that might be the best mix for me. with 2 40w aquaium bulbs.
296w veg that not too bad to swap for my 400 mh i think i will be good with this mix tthx for the input. good read UC


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 2, 2012)

I would avoid the 4100k's, they're a commercial bulb produced for human use ie offices/buildings/ etc for people to see, its gonna have waaay too much green/yellow/orange to be a good choice... yes they will work, but wont be as efficient as a bulb that is producing more PAR light and less G/Y/O. 6500k's are prob the only commercial bulbs that can be used in a PAR setup (3000/2700k's have their place, but a much smaller place IMO) as they have more blue, and less green/orange so most of its power is putting out photosynthetically usable Blue. I would, and am currently, use a 6500k grow bulb before I'd use a 3000k bloom, even during flowering... blooms waste too much output in the G/Y/O range for my liking. I use the 6500k's kinda like an actinic+, since neither will have any Red over 610nm anyways and both have green. Again, any bulb can have its place in a PAR setup, but if you only have a few bulbs in your spread, make them good ones (then you can get creative and add in oddball tubes to fill in the spectrum once you have your base spectrum laid down)

You want the CoralWaves for the PAR blue, plus its unique in how much IR is emits, which will act like a catalyst to help make your Red spectrum from other tubes more effective. most 12000k's will be like 6500k's, they'll have some good blue but little useable red and a large dose of green

make sure to read all 3 of those links


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

Woo! It's christmas in my house! Got free seeds from 9 strains from a friend! Probably a solid 70 seeds total. So I'm a happy individual.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> T5 is great for sidelighting/supplemental... since it can hang horizontally/sideways you can line your walls with em and get those lower buds some love too... check my thread, I started with a 400wHPS in a cool tube and have slowly migrated to an all T5 setup... will never look back  fuck HID!
> 
> 
> I keep my lights as close as I can (on all sides)... I figure if the highest colas arent getting the best/widest spectrum, they're getting more intense light due to their proximity to the bulbs so they will get some benefit from that, then the lower buds are getting a better spread of spectrum so they benefit from that. Honestly I dont see any areas that are struggling, Im rocking out with my spectrum, I think you could do very well with a ratio of 2 FloraSuns-1 CoralWave-1 RedSun/life. FS=RGB, CW=RB, RS=R... sounds like a good ratio to me, and my still developing buds prove it to me!


Right on brother... totally agree with fuck HID and with intensity over blend... they blend anyway more or less, unless they're like 1" away. And even then, I mean, it's the same plant... the plant is going to use the different spectrums that hit it, even if not all in the same spot... 's all good.

And I also second the FS/CW/RS combo. Working very well for me. That's what I have, straight up, plus two fiji purps thrown in because I had extra slots to fill and it's better than standard bulbs!


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> If found that you can fuck up a bud if your flower is actually pressed onto a tube, but I dont worry about leaf burn. The leaves will burn/bleach out if left on contact, but it wont stress the whole plant like a hot HID bulb can (I crisped 3 ft worth of sativa my first grow when I thought a 500w HALOGEN light would be good to grow with, yeah lol I know) HID heatstress/burns can damage right down to your babies soul! no recovering from that. But the T5 burns Ive had to my foliage is basically just a white strip across a fan leaf where the contact was made, but the leaf structure is not damaged (the tip of the leaf will remain green where there is a bleached white strip right across it) Ive even found that leaves that are bleached when the plant are young, actually repair themself (or seem to at least, young leaves continue to grow larger and the bleached strip seems to shrink in turn). The point is, T5's operating temp is abt 95deg I think, and HID's are in excess of 150deg. Im only concerned for top colas growing up into the bulbs, otherwise I dont worry about jack  love my T5's! 29 tubes running as of today, soon to be 37!!!! oh and my electricity bill last month (with a 14kBTU 1350w AC running 24/7, in a 2story home) ... = $84!!!


Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the plants suffered at all from the burns... just a little localized patch that dies on the leaf exactly where the bulb was touching.  Definitely not a big deal at all compared to intense HID damage! Just wanted to clarify because it sounded like kpmarine got full recovery even in the spots that touched the bulbs. Definitely no worries with these little burns, especially when contrasted against the kind of damage you can get from HID.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Woo! It's christmas in my house! Got free seeds from 9 strains from a friend! Probably a solid 70 seeds total. So I'm a happy individual.


Very Nice, Very Jellous!


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Woo! It's christmas in my house! Got free seeds from 9 strains from a friend! Probably a solid 70 seeds total. So I'm a happy individual.


Wewt! Nice! Now if only my sannies order would show up... :O

Passing out reps to everyone!!


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the plants suffered at all from the burns... just a little localized patch that dies on the leaf exactly where the bulb was touching.  Definitely not a big deal at all compared to intense HID damage! Just wanted to clarify because it sounded like kpmarine got full recovery even in the spots that touched the bulbs. Definitely no worries with these little burns, especially when contrasted against the kind of damage you can get from HID.


Oh, sorry, didn't mean to imply that. I was trying to say they were trivial compared to the HID damage I had seen.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Wewt! Nice! Now if only my sannies order would show up... :O
> 
> Passing out reps to everyone!!


Indeed! Reppin' Oprah style! (Except I'm pretty sure my rep is +1 at best, Oprah reps you, you get a car in the mail probably.)


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Oh, sorry, didn't mean to imply that. I was trying to say they were trivial compared to the HID damage I had seen.


No worries mate, I think we're all on the same page now


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Indeed! Reppin' Oprah style! (Except I'm pretty sure my rep is +1 at best, Oprah reps you, you get a car in the mail probably.)


*like* (*shakefist at RIU*)


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> *like* (*shakefist at RIU*)


Seriously, that needs to get fixed. I didn't realize how much I'd taken it for granted until it was gone.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Seriously, that needs to get fixed. I didn't realize how much I'd taken it for granted until it was gone.


Sadly, I feel like this might be a thing of the past at this point. It's been gone an awful long time this time.  RIU fails me, but oh well. I have to admit I give out way more rep now.


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## kpmarine (Apr 2, 2012)

Maybe that's why it's not fixed yet. People are more motivated to post now.


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## AltarNation (Apr 2, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Maybe that's why it's not fixed yet. People are more motivated to post now.


Well, more motivated to use rep, yes. I guess maybe they didn't like how it was overshadowing the reps. But all the extra posts are just the word "Like" so I don't see why that would make them happy, lol.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 2, 2012)

I LIKE this ^^^^


and if i can get my fucking phone to cooperate i will throw some pics up so i can get your opinion on these bulbs(came with light)


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## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

got any guess as to the spectrums of the bulbs would be helpful. the red bulb is a phillips 5000k still can read the label, that really blue area is atinic not too sure what brand the other 2 on the ends are really blue but look as if they have some white to them
my veg area under the new t5 light and my super cucumber plant 3-4 weeks old
flowering room 21 1 gal pots SOG 400w hps 400w MH x2 reptisun 10.0 WW and a purp Flowering (i dont know what strain the purp is some bagseed from highgrade calli bud)
 purp close up, some recent yeild, WW under scope


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 3, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> have you seen the spectrum charts for the 4100 phillips 54w t5 its got a pretty good spread im thinking those the coral growth accelerator or 1200k and a red sun? i think that might be the best mix for me. with 2 40w aquaium bulbs.
> 296w veg that not too bad to swap for my 400 mh i think i will be good with this mix tthx for the input. good read UC



Id actually like to see the Spectrum of the 4100k Philips if anyone has it. I noticed they carry these at Home Depot now for $9


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 3, 2012)

Apparently 4100k should be something like this


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 3, 2012)

I might give these a go next time. GE's 5000k Full Spectrum bulb


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> I might give these a go next time. GE's 5000k Full Spectrum bulb
> 
> View attachment 2104253


Just curious, but why. Those bulbs are kinda the opposite of PAR/PUR. Almost all Green, yellow orange.


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## PetFlora (Apr 3, 2012)

^^^ IMHO, after a ton of researching lighting mj, I want a few staple bulbs because G/Y are far more important than PAR advocates realize. PUR is where the action is, and that includes ~ 25% G/Y/O. 

I experimented with FloraSuns during veg, but not seeing enough stretch or growth with my Indica dom cross. So I added 2 UVL AquaSuns to increase the B/G ratio. They were only in a couple days, when my new RLs arrived. So, I popped them out to test my new Red Lifes, which have been in for 4 days. Not much happening, so will revert to the ASs. 


Failing that, I will replace the FSs with Quantum Grows until ~ 6", then shift to UVL AquaSuns into early-mid flower, then replace them with FloraSuns which I think have sufficient B/G/Y to carry the load + Red Lifes, and of course Coral Waves throughout.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

that really isnt a bad bulb jsam. but i dont knoe if 5000k form HD have a spectrum like that. the 4100 graph you have is wrong the spread is better than that and would combo with the other bulbs i want to buy better, but if those 5000k are at menards i will probably get those instead


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## infinitalus (Apr 3, 2012)

That lamp isnt terrible, but I wouldnt use any other single type of lamp for my entire system and I would rather have more PAR lighting for chlorophyll than for other pigments.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

i really just want 4 of the bulbs wave point is has got "coming soon"

http://www.wave-point.com/Lighting_folder/LampMain.html

ULTRA GROWTH WAVE


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## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

Wow, I heard people mention that a few times but hadn't looked into it yet. That red spike is phenomenal. Why am I looking to buy these straight 660nm bulbs again? LOL.

Hmmmm.


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## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

"*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to polyarcturus again."

*


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## Psytranceorgy (Apr 3, 2012)

ultra growth waves 'look' like the shit... no question!

anybody heard an ETA on availability?


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## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

Just emailed them that very question Psytrance, I will let you know what they say.

So guys, assuming that this bulb is as good as it looks, what would you do for a layout with these bulbs available? I am thinking a combo of Coral Waves and Ultra Growth Waves alone could make an amazing flowering line up... am I missing something though?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> "*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to polyarcturus again."
> 
> *



thats a first nobody ever reps me lol.

i found those yesterday got all excited getting ready to go buy 4 of them then i saw COMING SOON
SALTY.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

4 ultra growth waves a 2 reptisun10.0 and a 2 coral wave. best flowering set up i could think of.

i would pay double price to get them early lol! im serious.


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## ValleGrown (Apr 3, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> I might give these a go next time. GE's 5000k Full Spectrum bulb
> 
> View attachment 2104253


You do realize these are not PAR lighting right?


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## ValleGrown (Apr 3, 2012)

I am supplementing with 12000k super actinics. For the green yellow and orange. Just 2 of em. And 2 650 roseates and depending on when these ultra waves come out. ..ooooo wheee that would be a fucking badass setup

My setuP


12000k
650nm
actinic 
6500k will sub for a blend

Hopefully with the ultra waves but until then some more 650Nm roseates

6500k will sub for a blend 
actinic
650nm
12000k


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 3, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i really just want 4 of the bulbs wave point is has got "coming soon"
> 
> http://www.wave-point.com/Lighting_folder/LampMain.html
> 
> ULTRA GROWTH WAVE


Wow yes those are awsome. cant wait to start changing out some of my bulbs for those.

*You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to polyarcturus again."*

Damn it, everyone who is helpfull to me here is on that message, guess i have to start reading other threads soon just so i can pass out some rep so i can hit you guys again lol


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 3, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> You do realize these are not PAR lighting right?


Yes. I also realize that im growing 3 different grows side by side including 2 different blends of PAR (as ive mentioned in the past 10 pages) and the fixture that is currently running away with the growth side of things is a 2 bulb blend of 3000k bulb and Florasuns.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> 4 ultra growth waves a 2 reptisun10.0 and a 2 coral wave. best flowering set up i could think of.
> 
> i would pay double price to get them early lol! im serious.


Reptisun 10.0's are what, straight UV bulbs? So Coral Wave for IR, Reptisuns for UV, and ultragrowths to fill out just about damn near everything else? hehe


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 3, 2012)

Reptisuns are 5000k triband fluoros (R-G-B + UVb), but 2x 54w of them will be enough UVb to crisp your fan leaves like HID heat stress... Be warned

Kevin from wavepoint said a few more months for final testing, and yes I want a few to try... But compare them to the FloraSuns SPD, almost identical (wavepoint makes their peaks appear higher, but otherwise they line up petty well)


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Reptisuns are 5000k triband fluoros (R-G-B + UVb), but 2x 54w of them will be enough UVb to crisp your fan leaves like HID heat stress... Be warned
> 
> Kevin from wavepoint said a few more months for final testing, and yes I want a few to try... But compare them to the FloraSuns SPD, almost identical (wavepoint makes their peaks appear higher, but otherwise they line up petty well)


It looks way more intense... that is some mind trickery they are pulling? I don't quite know how to read these damn charts...


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 3, 2012)

Again remember guys, if its advertised with just a kelvin temperature (4100k, 5500k etc) theyre more than likely just your run of the mill commercial fluoros that were made to seem bright to the human eye and will be loaded with G/Y/O so as to light up a room well, this applies to 6500k grow/2700-3000k bloom bulbs too. They have a good dose of PAR blue tho (moreso for the 6500k's) which is why they do work decently for growing... otherwise a good chunk of their output will not be utilized unless there is already an abundance of PAR light being created by the rest of your spread to where the G/Y/O can act as a catalyst to "assist" the "uptake, or usability" of the primary PAR colors (B/R). Point is, dont worry about providing G/Y/O, its next to impossible to create a spectrum that won't provide those colors by default (unless ALL your tubes are actinics or RedSuns, in which case youre going about it all wrong lol)


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 3, 2012)

No one knows what scale theyre using, so you can't compare the height of the peaks, only the shape of the curves and their location L or R to indicate the nm wavelength...


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 3, 2012)

Oh and I like the new avatar AN !


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> No one knows what scale theyre using, so you can't compare the height of the peaks, only the shape of the curves and their location L or R to indicate the nm wavelength...


That sucks. Why the hell isn't the scale standardized? Damn, that's annoying.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Oh and I like the new avatar AN !


Thanks man... I found it on Google, haha. I looked it up and it apparently was a lucid dreaming conference in Melbourne Australia back in 96! Kind of a trippy coincidence, hah. I still haven't figured out what the other AltarNation I jacked my logo from actually is:

http://www.altarnation.net/

no idea, lol.

I coined the phrase on my own, then I just started searching google for logos, lol. Luckily someone else out there already thought of the same clever play on words and made cool logos out of it, hahaha.


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 3, 2012)

I am getting the best growth thusfar out of the Agrosun 3000k bulbs mixed with a couple of Flora Suns

http://www.htgsupply.com/Product-3000K-AgroMax-4ft-T5-Bloom-Bulbs.asp


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

http://www.petmountain.com/product//11442-504808/zoo-med-natural-bush-cannabis.html


looking for light bulbs and found this


----------



## hyroot (Apr 3, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> http://www.petmountain.com/product//11442-504808/zoo-med-natural-bush-cannabis.html
> 
> 
> looking for light bulbs and found this


That made me laugh so tough.


----------



## Psytranceorgy (Apr 3, 2012)

w t f

still lol @ that ^^^


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

x2 coral growth accelerator, x2 6500k final decision what site is the cheapest to order from?


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 3, 2012)

http://www.driedpoppiesdirect.com/jumbo_large_poppy_pods.html

That's another one that amuses me.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> http://www.driedpoppiesdirect.com/jumbo_large_poppy_pods.html
> 
> That's another one that amuses me.


Err but those are actual poppies right? hahaha


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 3, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Err but those are actual poppies right? hahaha


Yup, for "crafting" purposes. haha


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Yup, for "crafting" purposes. haha


Yeah, crafting a big pot of opiate tea


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

hey if you guys go to the website with cannabis plant they have a NICE SALE going on WAVEPOINT 13$ enter coupon SAVE and save 5$. i just bout 4 wavepoints from them


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 3, 2012)

http://www.petmountain.com/?utm_medium=affiliate&utm_campaign=affiliate&utm_source=cj


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 3, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> x2 coral growth accelerator, x2 6500k final decision what site is the cheapest to order from?


For flowering or veg...? The IR in the CoralWaves can induce premature flowering if used during veg and have been recommended for use only during flowering... Petmountain's got em cheapest tho. 

Cheapest combos = = = 
Veg... 2 BlueWaves + 2 free 6500k's or FloraSuns if you have to buy em. 

Flower... 3 FloraSuns + 1 CoralWave, or 2 FloraSuns + 1 CoralWave and 1 free Bloom.

The only bulb Ive paid more than 11 for are UVL RedSuns... 

Petmountain for Wavepoints, AquariumGuys for FloraSuns.


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 3, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> http://www.driedpoppiesdirect.com/jumbo_large_poppy_pods.html
> 
> That's another one that amuses me.



"May have seeds so you can grow your own. Flower color is white with purple splotches and maroon with purple splotches." 


holy shit, ummmmm, I may be wrong but possession of live poppies is like a straight to anal rape prison level felony, ??? damn


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 3, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> "May have seeds so you can grow your own. Flower color is white with purple splotches and maroon with purple splotches."
> 
> 
> holy shit, ummmmm, I may be wrong but possession of live poppies is like a straight to anal rape prison level felony, ??? damn


Pretty sure it is, they exploit a loophole since it's for "crafts".


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 3, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Pretty sure it is, they exploit a loophole since it's for "crafts".


Indeed. You can sell the dried ones. Go figure.

*tries to sell dried buds for crafts* Oh, I'm in jail now? Okay, seeya later.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> For flowering or veg...? The IR in the CoralWaves can induce premature flowering if used during veg and have been recommended for use only during flowering... Petmountain's got em cheapest tho.
> 
> Cheapest combos = = =
> Veg... 2 BlueWaves + 2 free 6500k's or FloraSuns if you have to buy em.
> ...



your veg choices are basically the same the only reason im going with the coral accelarator is the red spike. the 6500k will cover the blues its not hitting just fine though. but where all gonna have opinions on "better" spectrum

ended up going with 6700k coralife instead just placed my order post a update when they get here


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 4, 2012)

*cries* My sannies seeds are no where to be found... waiting patiently, hoping they are just delayed...


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

brave one. i have only placed 2 orders in my life. thankfully they both came, i find im more comfortable ordering spores than i am seeds. but i hope they come thru for you. what did you get anyways? i was thinking of ordering with the 420 boom.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> brave one. i have only placed 2 orders in my life. thankfully they both came, i find im more comfortable ordering spores than i am seeds. but i hope they come thru for you. what did you get anyways? i was thinking of ordering with the 420 boom.


Yeah, unfortunately there are so many packages coming in through customs that they may be clamping down... i don't know. I'm hoping it's just a delay, like I said... but it's not lookin good right now from where I'm sitting. Definitely easier to just order spores since it doesn't have to come through customs.

I got Kollossus and an indica-three-pack that contains four of each of the following: Herejuana, Anesthetic, and Jackberry F2


----------



## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

Yea hopefully the tude will have some good specials.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 4, 2012)

OHHHH fucking SWEET... the tracking finally updated today!! It has moved past "Parcel received in country of destination" and now says it's at the PostNL Distribution Center, "Parcel at depot" woooooo there is hope yet


----------



## pedro420 (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> For flowering or veg...? The IR in the CoralWaves can induce premature flowering if used during veg and have been recommended for use only during flowering... Petmountain's got em cheapest tho.
> 
> Cheapest combos = = =
> Veg... 2 BlueWaves + 2 free 6500k's or FloraSuns if you have to buy em.
> ...


Hey uc I'm not saying your wrong about useing ir in veg but I used a Coralwave 2 flora suns 1 3000k bulbs for the last 3 weeks of veg for my 
Bubblegum kush .lemon skunk and pineapple express and none of them showed pre flowers but within a week of being on 12-12 they all had thumbnail sized clusters of hairs poking out everywhere on them and they are like doubling in size every day 

Again not saying your wrong or right but that was what happind to me remember it was only 2-3 weeks tho


----------



## hyroot (Apr 4, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Hey uc I'm not saying your wrong about useing ir in veg but I used a Coralwave 2 flora suns 1 3000k bulbs for the last 3 weeks of veg for my
> Bubblegum kush .lemon skunk and pineapple express and none of them showed pre flowers but within a week of being on 12-12 they all had thumbnail sized clusters of hairs poking out everywhere on them and they are like doubling in size every day
> 
> Again not saying your wrong or right but that was what happind to me remember it was only 2-3 weeks tho


If you dig in this thread im the one who said coral waves cause flowering in veg. I posted pics too. In one day on a 18/6. 5 different strains already had buds as if it had been in flower for 2 weeks. That was with 2 coral waves. On th following batch I tried it with 1 coral wave and same results. Then I found a published paper from texas a&m doing experiments with infrared lighting and the effects it has on plant growth. That. Comfirmed everything. I even posted a link to that too. I have no idea where in this thread that was. Ive already done 7 Par batches about to start my 8th. As that as a time span of how long ago ot could of been.


----------



## pedro420 (Apr 4, 2012)

Well that's why I said I wasn't saying if it was rite or wrong it just didn't happin for me 

But I'll keep that in mind when I set up again after this round


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 4, 2012)

1 vs. 2 coral waves, perhaps the amount from one bulb won't trigger but 2 will.. probably depends on the plant too on that...


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 4, 2012)

Yay!! My new genetics hath arrived! Props to Sannies! Woo Woo... can't wait for my flowers to finish so I can rotate and get some of these into action...


----------



## 48martin (Apr 4, 2012)

Vegging with- 6500 / Bluewave / 6500 / Reefwave - repeat every 4 tubes

Plants react much better to this blend of light, compared to four 6500 tubes. (for my situation)

So far so good

-48


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

The IR in CoralWaves is out of the PAR curve, they are essentially Actinic BlueWave bulbs with IR that wont be utilized. When used in Veg, if they dont induce flowering, you can count on them being a good chunk less effective than a BlueWave. 760 is out of the PAR curve so its being wasted in Veg, IR is used in a PAR spectrum to induce and enhance flowering... BlueWaves are a dual phosphor blend covering 03 actinic as well as 460, so it will provide all the PAR blue you need, FloraSuns will provide all the PAR red (630-660) 
The IR from the CoralWaves wont be utilized in Veg, save em for flower.
If used, they'll still grow, they're just not putting out as much blue as efficiently as a pure blue BlueWave or other 420-460Actinic (I like AquaticLife's 420/460 also) since whatever % of their output that is used to create that IR spike is being wasted. You'll get results, but you want the most efficient means to it


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

48martin said:


> Vegging with- 6500 / Bluewave / 6500 / Reefwave - repeat every 4 tubes
> 
> Plants react much better to this blend of light, compared to four 6500 tubes.
> 
> ...


I used that combo last grow through veg, liked it and had no complaints, but I think the BlueWaves cover all the blue well enough so I havent bought any more ReefWaves, but I still have one as sidelighting. I think the 630-660 red from the FloraSuns are giving me a bit quicker growth than I was getting when I had the 6500k's (610nm), But I got good squatty bushy growth with both combos, like 2-3 nodes per inch 

Ill agree tho, I definatley got much better results when I initally swapped out half of my 6500k's for actinics. That was the first sign I got that helped really open my eyes to the PAR method


----------



## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

aAlright guys

IT SEEMS EVERYONE IS ENJOYING THE POSTAL SERVICE TODAY!! CONGRATS ON YOUR NEW GENETICS ALTAR NATION GOTTA LOVE NEW SHIT!

I MYSELF JUST RECEIVED MY LAST PAIR OF BULBS. AND IT SEEMS THAT MY ORDER WAS CHANGED A LITTLE. BUT....I DONT REMEMBER IF I DID IT. 

I WAS ALMOST POSITIVE THAT I ORDERED 12000K ACTINICS. BUT THEY SENT ME 420 NM / 620 NM PURPLE BULBS. WHICH IS FUCKING AWESOME!!!!


THEY ARE BASICALLY FIJI PURPS. 

ANYWAYS MY SETUP IS NOW AS FOLLOWS

CAN SOMEONE LET ME KNOW WHAT THEY THINK ON THE BLEND HERE..

420/460 PURP 
6500K
420 SUPER ACTINIC
650 ROSEATE
650 ROSEATE
420 SUPER ACTINIC
6500K
420/620 PURPLE


What cha think????


----------



## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

Here are the pics guys right after i put the bulbs in. So hopefully soon they will react to the bulbs. 

I left em alone for now


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> aAlright guys
> 
> IT SEEMS EVERYONE IS ENJOYING THE POSTAL SERVICE TODAY!! CONGRATS ON YOUR NEW GENETICS ALTAR NATION GOTTA LOVE NEW SHIT!
> 
> ...


I think its a pretty good combo for veg, for Flower I'd swap the 420's for CoralWaves and the Purples for some FloraSuns or more Roseates. 

Im still waiting on mine, but I have some of those AquaticLife 420/620's on the way too. I found the SPD at their website and I wasnt too impressed, looks more like a 610nm spike which wont be as effective as if it actually was 620, let alone 630-660nm which it shoulda been.




I have a theory that these may actually be the 12k tubes you ordered, Kelvin temperatures are for describing incandescent/black body radiators, not fluoros. Giving the NM measurements are a more accurate way to describe a bulbs hue. These are a new product for AquaticLife (Ive never seen em before 2012) so it'd make sense to market them with their NM's over K temps. They may be the same tubes that would give an approx 12k hue, just renamed. Thats what my brains thinkin anyway


----------



## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

No no I was positive. UVL 12000k super actinic. From dr fosters. ...



But wouldnt this be a Perfect blend all around? 
it is bassically the par curve.


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 4, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> No no I was positive. UVL 12000k super actinic. From dr fosters. ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They probably ran out of that bulb and shipped you an equivalent. Hoped maybe you'd be just as happy.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> The IR in CoralWaves is out of the PAR curve, they are essentially Actinic BlueWave bulbs with IR that wont be utilized. When used in Veg, if they dont induce flowering, you can count on them being a good chunk less effective than a BlueWave. 760 is out of the PAR curve so its being wasted in Veg, IR is used in a PAR spectrum to induce and enhance flowering... BlueWaves are a dual phosphor blend covering 03 actinic as well as 460, so it will provide all the PAR blue you need, FloraSuns will provide all the PAR red (630-660)
> The IR from the CoralWaves wont be utilized in Veg, save em for flower.
> If used, they'll still grow, they're just not putting out as much blue as efficiently as a pure blue BlueWave or other 420-460Actinic (I like AquaticLife's 420/460 also) since whatever % of their output that is used to create that IR spike is being wasted. You'll get results, but you want the most efficient means to it


this is why i got the coral growth tube for veg are you guys using 18/6? this would cause flowering with the coral enhancement because of the far reds. these bulbs are best used in a 24 hours setup where during the the six hours of dark these would be lit up. so for those six hours the plants "pretend to sleep" its great for veg i had been doing this with hps and halide with great results but i felt i wasnt getting the deep sleep thats why switched to t5 in my veg(plus energy savings and better spectrum for a vegging plant). 24/0 with a six pretend sleep of red lighting, this has been a major boost in my lighting techniques since i started though i would share this with you guy. it has a lot to do with hormones and what not, but definitely can cause flowering if lights aren't kept on 24/0, had this happening with plants under HID


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

i also use this method in flower hps come on and goes off an hour earlier and an hour later. plus the T5 light i bought has 2 plugs for 2 sets of bulbs really good buy for 50$...


----------



## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

I ordered two more 650nm's for safe keeping.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

pet mtn sold out of 12000k 46" wave point


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 4, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> I ordered two more 650nm's for safe keeping.


Where from?


----------



## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

30 bucks with shipping from aquariumguys.com

11 dollars a bulb


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> this is why i got the coral growth tube for veg are you guys using 18/6? this would cause flowering with the coral enhancement because of the far reds. these bulbs are best used in a 24 hours setup where during the the six hours of dark these would be lit up. so for those six hours the plants "pretend to sleep" its great for veg i had been doing this with hps and halide with great results but i felt i wasnt getting the deep sleep thats why switched to t5 in my veg(plus energy savings and better spectrum for a vegging plant). 24/0 with a six pretend sleep of red lighting, this has been a major boost in my lighting techniques since i started though i would share this with you guy. it has a lot to do with hormones and what not, but definitely can cause flowering if lights aren't kept on 24/0, had this happening with plants under HID


im totally lost, you can just keep your lights on bull blast 24/0 if you want. The point is that IR will confuse your plants into thinking its time to start flower. so when you want it to be thinking of nothing but growing big and tall and bushy, the IR you're giving her wil make her say "huh, hold up? should I be flowering now?" and she wont grow as vigorously, but since she's not on 12/12 she wont be able to fully switch into fruiting, so she'll drudge along, maybe growing a little, maybe put out a few more pre-flowers, but wont be growing as if under optimal condiitons. Or she may thrive due to light from other tubes and the PAR blue from them, but the point is that IR is a signal of Autumn and a trigger for flowering. Im still confused why you want to use them during veg?? 
pretend sleep? just cuz these appear kinda dim by themselves, to _OUR_ eyes, they are gonna appear bright as hell to the plants who "see" outside of our optic limits... remember we see green brightest, they see blue and true red brightest. The blue in the CoralWaves will appear like high noon to you girls.


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> pet mtn sold out of 12000k 46" wave point


Those 12000k's have more green than the 6500k's, and neither have any viable PAR red (620-700) why would you use either???? The PAR blue you would get in those tubes would be provided much more efficiently by the pure blue BlueWaves.



until the UltraGrowth comes out, Wavepoint does not make a bulb that provides any PAR Red, they are only good for their Blues in Veg, and the Blue+IR in Flower along with other tubes that provide the PAR Red.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

i agree thats why i switched to 2 6700k by coralife and 2 wavepoint coral accel. those bulbs red spike isnt that great the 6500k is better


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> im totally lost, you can just keep your lights on bull blast 24/0 if you want. The point is that IR will confuse your plants into thinking its time to start flower. so when you want it to be thinking of nothing but growing big and tall and bushy, the IR you're giving her wil make her say "huh, hold up? should I be flowering now?" and she wont grow as vigorously, but since she's not on 12/12 she wont be able to fully switch into fruiting, so she'll drudge along, maybe growing a little, maybe put out a few more pre-flowers, but wont be growing as if under optimal condiitons. Or she may thrive due to light from other tubes and the PAR blue from them, but the point is that IR is a signal of Autumn and a trigger for flowering. Im still confused why you want to use them during veg??
> pretend sleep? just cuz these appear kinda dim by themselves, to _OUR_ eyes, they are gonna appear bright as hell to the plants who "see" outside of our optic limits... remember we see green brightest, they see blue and true red brightest. The blue in the CoralWaves will appear like high noon to you girls.


i understand where you are coming from but hormones aren't just "flowering hormones" those are built up in pure darkness best, far reds(like at duk and dawn) signal the creation of these hormones and other hormones that help with growth. i create basically an dusk of about 6 hours this helps the plant enter a sleep-cycle without entering flowering. but let say i ran all the lights 18/6 you would see buds after a while because the far red encourages budding.

so my light cycle in veg is like this 18 hours full par lighting then 6 hours far red only. works great so far


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i understand where you are coming from but hormones aren't just "flowering hormones" those are built up in pure darkness best, far reds(like at duk and dawn) signal the creation of these hormones and other hormones that help with growth. i create basically an dusk of about 6 hours this helps the plant enter a sleep-cycle without entering flowering. but let say i ran all the lights 18/6 you would see buds after a while because the far red encourages budding.
> 
> so my light cycle in veg is like this 18 hours full par lighting then 6 hours far red only. works great so far


I think its working great simply due to the light being provided... im iffy on the pretend sleep concept, they see that coralwave bright as fuck. people use green lighting in greenhouses during the dark period if you want to run a light during the dark period, but 18/6 or 24/0 they're gonna respond well and its been debated whether a dark period is necessary or if 24/0 is better. They'll look good either way, Im not buying the pretend sleep thing, and stand by my premise that you could get better results with a pure blue tube in the same set-up and save the CoralWave's IR for when you want to flower. again, those bulbs dont look dark to your plants so I dont know why you think they would enter a "sleep cycle", they may not grow as vigorously as when under the full PAR lighting, but they're still absorbing photons and processing CO2 and photosynthesizing. Anytime theres light shining on their leaves, they're "feeding" on it. But not the IR, its just confusing the plant and wont contribute well to the growth stage you're trying to optimize during veg.


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 4, 2012)

My buddy is growing the same strains as me with T5's and 100% 2900k bloom bulbs. He is at 4 weeks into Flower right now and his plants are super impressive and frosty. Also good size.

Here is the part that has me perplexed. He has his fixture 4 FEET above the canopy! I keep mine at 4" roughly. My mind is blown at this point. I never even thought of keeping my lights tht high and getting good growth. It just doesn't make sense!


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

The Green lines are what you want to try to create with your light set-up.
This would be a good proportion of Blue to Red for veg, reverse the peaks so Red is higher for a flowering spectrum 

__________________________________________________________________________________________

http://www.myhydroponicgardening.com/the-cannabis-growers-guide-to-led-grow-lights-spectrum-wavelength/

..."When looking at a PAR chart, you can see that there are distinct peaks along the visible light spectrum at which plants derive nearly all of their energy required for photosynthesis. It is clear that red and blue are needed and, until I did more research, I thought that orange was needed as well. The fact is that just 2 wavelengths in the red band and 2 wavelengths in the blue band can provide over 95% of the light needed for all phases of plant growth. Some manufacturers also deliver UV and/or infrared light bands in their products to enhance resin production and flowering. 

Photosynthetic Pigments & Absorption Spectrum

There are 6 main photosynthetic pigments in higher plants that drive plant growth, flowering, and fruiting. Different pigments in the plant absorb light at various points of the visible light spectrum - both red and blue - for vegetative and flowering growth.
For example, lets take the most common/abundant photosynthetic pigments in a plant, chlorophyll A and B. The absorption spectra for chlorophyll A is both at 400-450nm (violet to blue) and at 650-700nm (near-red to deep red) while chlorophyll B peaks at 450-500nm and 600-650nm. So, while red is essential to flowering, it is also necessary for vegging. It also happens to be absorbed less efficiently by plants, hence the increased need for red lighting during flowering

Check out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_pigment
http://www2.chemistry.msu.edu/faculty/reusch/VirtTxtJml/Spectrpy/UV-Vis/spectrum.htm

My previous understanding of the need for orange in LED grow lights was based on what I know now as flawed science from this Solar Oasis patent . . .
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/6921182.html

Their research and testing were flawed which is where they came up with the 612nm (orange) and its importance to photosynthesis. While the reading is well within the absorption range for chlorophyll B, it is not at the peak of absorption. In their testing, they attributed growth to the 612nm while in fact, it was because of the 660nm they were also using (red). They also said that the orange excites carotenoids . . . which is just wrong as it peaks at around 439nm and 483nm as you can see here: http://omlc.ogi.edu/spectra/PhotochemCAD/html/beta-carotene.html "....


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 4, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> I ordered two more 650nm's for safe keeping.


Which bulb?


----------



## 48martin (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I used that combo last grow through veg, liked it and had no complaints, but I think the BlueWaves cover all the blue well enough so I havent bought any more ReefWaves, but I still have one as sidelighting. I think the 630-660 red from the FloraSuns are giving me a bit quicker growth than I was getting when I had the 6500k's (610nm), But I got good squatty bushy growth with both combos, like 2-3 nodes per inch
> 
> Ill agree tho, I definatley got much better results when I initally swapped out half of my 6500k's for actinics. That was the first sign I got that helped really open my eyes to the PAR method


Yeah I kind of took what you and prof. were doing and worked it for my situation. (thanks )


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> I ordered two more 650nm's for safe keeping.





Lucius Vorenus said:


> Which bulb?



He's talking about the AquaticLife Roseate 650nm

View attachment 2107132

Its a good bulb, but the amt of green and yellow in it makes it look much more white than the FloraSuns or AquaMedic PlantGrows I have. On its own, it looks a little pinkish but next to the others its a flat stone white. Not a bad bulb for the $, but FloraSuns are even less at $8. (I realize it may sound like I work for ZooMed, Im just reeeallly cheap and they're good quality for the $... AquaMedics are $22ea and dont seem to be as well made)


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Those 12000k's have more green than the 6500k's, and neither have any viable PAR red (620-700) why would you use either???? The PAR blue you would get in those tubes would be provided much more efficiently by the pure blue BlueWaves.
> 
> View attachment 2106806
> 
> until the UltraGrowth comes out, Wavepoint does not make a bulb that provides any PAR Red, they are only good for their Blues in Veg, and the Blue+IR in Flower along with other tubes that provide the PAR Red.



When the ultra growth comes out, wouldnt it just be best to fill the entire fixture with those, or in a 6 bulb set up, 4 of those, 2 Actinic for veg, and then replace the actinics with red suns?


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

48martin said:


> Yeah I kind of took what you and prof. were doing and worked it for my situation. (thanks )


 love to hear it! 

I guess I can join the "Finally Get My Shit In The Mail" club!!!! Finally got my 2 Hydrofarm 4bulb 2ft panels to finish out my boxes, and got 2 more coral waves from PetMountain. Yay, its my weekly xmas morning lol


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> When the ultra growth comes out, wouldnt it just be best to fill the entire fixture with those, or in a 6 bulb set up, 4 of those, 2 Actinic for veg, and then replace the actinics with red suns?


I think so, They're gonna look almost identical to the FloraSuns that already exist, I currently use 50/50 FS's and Actinics for Veg, then 50-75% FS's and CoralWaves and RedSuns in Flower for a more complete red spectrum with the Actinic from the CoralWaves to provide the blue spread.

You could prob substitue FloraSuns with UltraGrowth's, they'll prob be around the same pricepoint any way ($10-ish) But I dont think they'll be very unique, only unique to WavePoints line-up.

View attachment 2107152
View attachment 2107153

We discussed a few months back how you cant really take the graphs for exact truth since theres no laws requiring accuracy of marketing materials for "Pet Products", theres no regulation unless its for human consumption and monitored by the FDA. They dont want to outright lie, but you can see how WavePoint makes the peaks look really big and bold, but when you compare the height of the blue and red _humps_ in both charts, you can see that they are just as high at both 450 and 640 between the two, although the ZooMed chart looks more subdued... they're damn near equal. Thats a German quality products vs a shady Chinese company like WavePoint. I dont want to show preference because Ive still had no problems with any of my WavePoint tubes and they're about the same cost so Im really in favor of both. I just wanted to point out the tactics that some companies use in their marketing. something to look for.


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## overTHEman (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Anytime theres light shining on their leaves, they're "feeding" on it.


Like this, a lot. PAR = plant food??


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

i have been looking for zoomed charts i know they make good bulbs and personally i would prefer to buy from them. the only reason i went with bluelife and wavepoint is they have very good info.

i did realize something and you made a good point the normal red lights i had been using where way out of that spectrum and less intense by far so i am starting to see what you where saying, maybe it more the lowering of the lumens that allow me to get this pretend sleep period(hell i can show you of the difference between my active periods and sleep periods)

so i may go ahead and get the atinics like you are saying so 2 atinics wave point and 2 6700k bluelife? or should i go with zoomed? im about to cancel my order


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

also i have ran into a hiccup how hot does the air get below your bulbs? mine is aquarium fixture so most of the light is focused downwards i took the plastic lens out at first but my plants got stressed overnite so i put the lens back in now the fixture is hot but the air isnt. right now its at the same height with the lens on about 6 in from my tops, if i could move it back to 2 ft without the lens i would be happy but from what you guys are telling me closer is better so what should i do?


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i have been looking for zoomed charts i know they make good bulbs and personally i would prefer to buy from them. the only reason i went with bluelife and wavepoint is they have very good info.
> 
> i did realize something and you made a good point the normal red lights i had been using where way out of that spectrum and less intense by far so i am starting to see what you where saying, maybe it more the lowering of the lumens that allow me to get this pretend sleep period(hell i can show you of the difference between my active periods and sleep periods)
> 
> so i may go ahead and get the atinics like you are saying so 2 atinics wave point and 2 6700k bluelife? or should i go with zoomed? im about to cancel my order


Cancel it, about the cheapest combo Ive found is 50/50 FloraSun and BlueWave, about $32 for all 4. Im glad you were able to see, the IR isnt PAR light (it is beneficial, but not to photosynthesis, it assists as a catalyst for the true PAR red (630-660)




polyarcturus said:


> also i have ran into a hiccup how hot does the air get below your bulbs? mine is aquarium fixture so most of the light is focused downwards i took the plastic lens out at first but my plants got stressed overnite so i put the lens back in now the fixture is hot but the air isnt. right now its at the same height with the lens on about 6 in from my tops, if i could move it back to 2 ft without the lens i would be happy but from what you guys are telling me closer is better so what should i do?


Take the plastic out, move em down close. get a cheapo desk fan just to circulate/ruffle the tops, T5's operate at 95deg so they will get warm but that heat dissipates quickly over the length of the tubes. Look up the Inverse Square Law... you will want to get the tubes as absolutely close as possible (keeping in mind that any changes to your babies environments can cause stress, so whenever you change lights/nutes/temps etc, do it over the course of a couple days so they can get used to it) If they're not used to the strong light they may shy away from it at first, but you gotta trust me they will be reaching for more and more light once they get a taste. They'll literally change the shape of their leaves and flatten out then curve towards it to be able to reach as much as possible.




overTHEman said:


> Like this, a lot. PAR = plant food??


PAR Photosynthetically Active Radiation, The specific lightwaves that trigger photosynthesis in chlorophyll A/B.
PUR Photosynthetically Usable Radiation, is the PAR that is specific to a certain plant species, there has been very little as far as scientific research into the actual PUR spectrum for cannabis, only higher plant species like different trees and crops etc (at least that I can find)


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> how hot does the air get below your bulbs?



lights were raised to post for the pic, they were only 2" above the canopy before this pic (old pic) but notice how the leaves are all reaching upwards 

any cheapo fan pointed up will help to circulate the air, and remember you cant have them in a completely enclosed small space, cuz again they run at 95deg so eventually your space will heat up so some ventillation will be necessary, but theyre nowhere near as hot as HID will get

Ive been told when blowing air directly onto tubes to do it from the label end and down the length from there, due to their internal components and how they're made. (dunno why exactly)


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

dude i changed the lights their entire growth pattern changed over nite overnite. happy canoeing leaves (not the bad kind the ramshorn leaves is what let me know the heat was bad) and green and the thickness seemed to change overnite and all node have begun to branch it was amazing i am super happy with my t5 swap in veg. yeah im gonna take the plasic off(it has a computer exhaust fan built in and i have a 4inline that blow the hot air from the light directly down so im gonna move that and rais the light a little till the plants adjust to the light. hey on few pages back i posted a pick of my bulbs that came with the light can you tell me what spectrum they are or your guess at least? i called and canceled my order you got me thinking.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

i run co2 so high temps ar e ok im just making sure every thing is ready for summer so if temps reach 90+ i will be alright


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

ok i will move 4in inline ducting to blow across bulbs label down dont know which side is label side but ill try


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> ...hey on few pages back i posted a pick of my bulbs that came with the light can you tell me what spectrum they are or your guess at least?


View attachment 2107231

Its really hard to tell since the bulbs play off each other to our eyes and can really appear quite different when placed next to various other bulbs, similar to optical illusions, that phillips 5000k bulb would prob appear flat white on its own, but the 610nm orange in it is showing dominant next to the actinic. i would have guessed it was a 3000k bulb, since it appears so orange, but thats just the Actinic playing off it. I would guess tho that the two on the ends are possibly something like an Actinic+ or a 75.25, maybe a 20000k. it looks like they may have a small amt of green/orange which is why they're not as pure blue as the actinic, but not as intense or wide of a spread as the 5000k


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

it might be a 3000k i can barely read the label let me get back to you on that. you think this okay for veg? been working good so far(3days) these are old bulbs that came with the light but they light up so i figured may as well use them


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

wont let me give you rep but next time i can i will


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

no worries dude, I just like to help. I would have guessed it was a 3000k if you hadn't said it was a 5000k earlier. I think it would work for veg, wouldnt be optimal but would work, would prob give very short internode distances, but would be slow growing...it wouldnt kill em


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

im cool with slow growth and short internodes got time on my hands, so its cool, plenty of clones.

bulb is 3000k just checked


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

chances are pretty good it would look something like this...

or this


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 4, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> He's talking about the AquaticLife Roseate 650nm
> 
> View attachment 2107132
> 
> Its a good bulb, but the amt of green and yellow in it makes it look much more white than the FloraSuns or AquaMedic PlantGrows I have. On its own, it looks a little pinkish but next to the others its a flat stone white. Not a bad bulb for the $, but FloraSuns are even less at $8. (I realize it may sound like I work for ZooMed, Im just reeeallly cheap and they're good quality for the $... AquaMedics are $22ea and dont seem to be as well made)


Id pass on that bulb. I'd get the Ushio 3000ks over that all day


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## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

Mind telling me why?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

cool seems pretty good for some half assed old free bulbs. better than my Mh imo. now that all about this t5. here soon im gonna be pairing t5 with hps or LED seems like this is the best way to get the sunlight indoors. this t5 shit is pretty sweet i must say i did not know there was this much to flouro, my next goal is to get some of these CL and start over driving air cooling and blending spectrums


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## polyarcturus (Apr 4, 2012)

ushio is a good brand went to thier website no info on fluoro so i passed if they cant even market that means its run of the mill IMO. and beside i would go with zoomed or hell philips over them any day proven quality.


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## ValleGrown (Apr 4, 2012)

Why are you using kelvin as your scale. I'm targeting certain PAR. I trying to accomplish a near perfect blend of par and get as close to the different peaks of chlorophyll a and b as possible With still having g/y/o in there to help with photosynthesis.

par lighting is certain wavelengths of light. So 650nm seems pretty close to 660nm and having it be a dominant wavelength. Ie exactly at 650nm instead of a "blend" Seems better to me.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 4, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Id pass on that bulb. I'd get the Ushio 3000ks over that all day


I know that you have said you prefer the generic cheapo grow/bloom bulbs before, but I dont know why. The only SPD I could find for the Ushio 3000k bulb is this one
View attachment 2107398
I thought this graph looked odd for a fluoro because it was lacking the usual mercury spike at 420, but when I went to save it I saw it was actually named "HPS 2100k". this graph seems to lack much true red anyway and is primarily yellow/orange... I think I'd still take the Roseate's over this SPD if this was actually the 3000k Ushio's... Im led to think that the Ushio's would be no different than the previous two graphs I posted for 3000k bulbs. If they had any true red over 630nm, they'd appear more pinkish than orange and may even have a higher kelvin temp like the FloraSuns which are 5000k or the PlantGrows which I belive are actually rated at 6500k. (again showing that the Kelvin temps are only a generic label to give a lamp, PlantGrows are just as pink as FloraSuns and dont appear blue at all, although they're given the same 6500k rating as the common bluish 6500k grow/veg bulb... and those 6500k grow bulbs actually appear green as fuck in my PAR flowering closet, where they're the heaviest in green of all my bulbs.


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## kpmarine (Apr 4, 2012)

Woot! Just popped a tap root out of a seed that is at least 8 years old. Now let's hope it's female. haha


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## hyroot (Apr 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> ushio is a good brand went to thier website no info on fluoro so i passed if they cant even market that means its run of the mill IMO. and beside i would go with zoomed or hell philips over them any day proven quality.


 http://www.ushio.com/products/generallighting/f-ultra5t5.htm

http://www.businesslights.com/ushio-f54t5ho-830-54w-3000k-85-cri-4ft-t5-ho-fluorescent-lamp-case-25.html

http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/t5-ushio-54w-48-inch-3000k-ho-fluorescent-lamp-4pack-p-1017.html


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/t5-ushio-54w-48-inch-3000k-ho-fluorescent-lamp-4pack-p-1017.html


That was exactly where I found that BS graph that is actually for a 2100k HPS. The other two links are for product pages where they are obviously marketed as commercial lighting, ie under cabinet and high-bay, where human eyesight would be the goal... so I still say that they are gonna be the _opposite_ of PAR lighting, dominant in green/yellow/orange and little blue or red


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

Sylvania gro lux

http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/Grolux_3/T5-54W-Grolux-Sylvania-54-Watt 

Free shipping if over 40 GBP or $64 for slow shipping. Probably 2 weeks. its ups


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## falcon223 (Apr 5, 2012)

I use the wave point bulbs, and do OK. 
Hay Alter, I ordered the colasas, and killing fields. I am glad you got your order. I am still waiting.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> I use the wave point bulbs, and do OK.
> Hay Alter, I ordered the colasas, and killing fields. I am glad you got your order. I am still waiting.


Cool, I bet it will get to ya. Kolossus looks amazing! I can't wait to see what the yields are!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Sylvania gro lux
> 
> http://www.lampspecs.co.uk/Light-Bulbs-Tubes/Grolux_3/T5-54W-Grolux-Sylvania-54-Watt
> 
> Free shipping if over 40 GBP or $64 for slow shipping. Probably 2 weeks. its ups


That bulbs looks pretty legit too bad about those other spikes in it though.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Shit... I might have to chop early again... they are hardening up but I still see so much new growth... the thing is, I'm seeing really bright green splotches in the new growth... and they've got me thinking hermie...  Is it normal for new growth in buds to show up bright green? Whatever they are it's so small I can't tell... looks like pistils coming out of most of them... but I'm not too sure overall.

They really look good too... I'm going to post up a new thread with pics, maybe you guys can chime in on what you think... I'll link it in a few...


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

Fresh growth brah! When mine go through a good flowering spurt I notice some of the fresh flowers and calyxes are really light green/yellowish before they mature a bit in the light. I get the hermie jitters sometimes too, but with my good genetics at least, I haven't had a single nanner yet


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Fresh growth brah! When mine go through a good flowering spurt I notice some of the fresh flowers and calyxes are really light green/yellowish before they mature a bit in the light. I get the hermie jitters sometimes too, but with my good genetics at least, I haven't had a single nanner yet


Alright that is definitely reassuring man... thank you for that. Here, take a look at the pictures and see if you still feel the same:

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/518468-do-new-calyxes-sometimes-grow.html#post7253545

And man do I hope you're right because these fuckers are PLUMPING UP. BIG time. Wish I could say my genetics were sound but the thing is i don't know which clones survived and ended up being these plants, so it's not impossible for it to be the same genes as the one that produced my 5 fem-seed babies at the end when I re-vegged her... a little scared! But I think I have time to let them develop and find out either way, because I still can't tell what the fuck I am looking at even with the macro shots


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

new growth foxtails most likely from what i have been told this means you are hitting the nail on the head so to speak, so DONT chop. they arent hermi


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

That's two for non-hermi, yay... 

They have been bulking up so much I almost refuse to believe they could be suffering!

Speaking of which I will go take some new shots of the whole buds after I calm my nerves on this suspicion... there is a front-row monster who has just grown out of control... must have been the original head cola, though I couldn't tell for a damn now that they're so heavily scrogged.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

yeah i had the same thing happen a 2 weeks ago i was like wtf new growth? how much bigger can they get? and their already swoll? so i posted just like you to confirm and then i chopped 2 weeks later everything was fine.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Sweet deal.

I wish I made a thread for all my posts, lol. I think I will organize them into one thread so I (and everyone else) can see the increases more obviously...


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

Doesnt look like something to worry about IMO either. Not with the pistols, but I am a newbie to this still so who knows, maybe I am dead wrong lol.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

but i do currently have a problem maybe you guys can help me come to a decision, i have a hermi its in it own container, the prob is its showed all male growth till i snapped the stem and put it in the container,(about 10-15 degrees colder than grow room) not its got mostly male flowers but some female flowers just started. i was gonna use it to breed as it was the perfect male (till this happened) now i am unsure if a male can hermie i was tolf they cant but this plant never had any stress when it showed male first and didnt develop female flowers till after i stressed the fuck out of it? what should i do with this guy? toss him? breed him? what?


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Well I value y'allz opinions more than the rest of the site, so I am pretty damn reassured, lol. Still if anyone else here wants to chime in I am all ears of course.

Poly, as far as I've heard males can indeed hermi... I'd be worried about it passing on that genetic vulnerability to it's offspring...but I don't breed so I have no idea what I'm talkin bout, lol... hopefully someone else can help ya


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

i would almost be happy for a male herm as i could use some more male seeds. im on a witch hunt in 4 generations in and im about to have some pure strains soon. if you guy want samples i will geocahing my seeds around the midwest in a few months if opur in the area i have a thread on it i will be posting to coordinates there later... but thats conversation for later


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i would almost be happy for a male herm as i could use some more male seeds. im on a witch hunt in 4 generations in and im about to have some pure strains soon. if you guy want samples i will geocahing my seeds around the midwest in a few months if opur in the area i have a thread on it i will be posting to coordinates there later... but thats conversation for later


If you end up on the west coast for some reason let me know, I would sample them. I am going to be working on genetics in the future as well, but not for at least 2 more grow cycles.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

how bigs your grow? finding males is no joke. lot of plants to go thru, lots of seeds instead of clones so slower growth too. but its mad fun to breed

trust me my seeds will be out west soon enough.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> but i do currently have a problem maybe you guys can help me come to a decision, i have a hermi its in it own container, the prob is its showed all male growth till i snapped the stem and put it in the container,(about 10-15 degrees colder than grow room) not its got mostly male flowers but some female flowers just started. i was gonna use it to breed as it was the perfect male (till this happened) now i am unsure if a male can hermie i was tolf they cant but this plant never had any stress when it showed male first and didnt develop female flowers till after i stressed the fuck out of it? what should i do with this guy? toss him? breed him? what?


You may want to look into it more, but you may have the elusive "male-hermie" given the order of sex appearance. Supposedly they are badass for breeding. Though I'm not a breeder yet, so look around to be sure.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i would almost be happy for a male herm as i could use some more male seeds. im on a witch hunt in 4 generations in and im about to have some pure strains soon. if you guy want samples i will geocahing my seeds around the midwest in a few months if opur in the area i have a thread on it i will be posting to coordinates there later... but thats conversation for later


geocaching seeds is an ingenious idea man. Wish i was in the area! lol


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> how bigs your grow? finding males is no joke. lot of plants to go thru, lots of seeds instead of clones so slower growth too. but its mad fun to breed
> 
> trust me my seeds will be out west soon enough.


Its not big since I stay SB420 compliant. But I am only growing for myself right now. I have a friend who has a 99 plant script, so I am going to be working on genetics in the future for seeding there. That and because I am loving growing now and I want to make some special seeds for me and what not.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i would almost be happy for a male herm as i could use some more male seeds. im on a witch hunt in 4 generations in and im about to have some pure strains soon. if you guy want samples i will geocahing my seeds around the midwest in a few months if opur in the area i have a thread on it i will be posting to coordinates there later... but thats conversation for later


Me and my buddy were talking about doing that with some old seeds. Figured a seed, plus some planting instructions could result in fun for everyone involved.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Its not big since I stay SB420 compliant. But I am only growing for myself right now. I have a friend who has a 99 plant script, so I am going to be working on genetics in the future for seeding there. That and because I am loving growing now and I want to make some special seeds for me and what not.


Last I checked, didn't the Cali supreme court overturn SB420? I thought limits were based on medical need now. Also, that 99 plant scrip is a scam. Unless his doctor plans on taking the stand and explaining why he needs 99 plants for his bad back (In a medically convincing way.), he just paid for something that gives him a false sense of security.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Me and my buddy were talking about doing that with some old seeds. Figured a seed, plus some planting instructions could result in fun for everyone involved.


Heh, if you do that KP, make sure to geocashe 1 county east, 7 counties south, 1 county east of ya lol!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

i figure since the legality of seed is in? i could place them outside of anyones reach but the dedicated, plus it would be agreat way to get testers and advertise my product. but quite getting me hyped up im still a ways away. but all my breeding projects are done in large grow rooms my personal grow is small but i can fit whatever i can in there as im not compliant lol. so im always picking really good males and well i only breed with my favorite females. my next breeds will be some pure strains and that when im gonna really start taking off


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Leaving instructions too! I love it! LOL. It's a great idea!


Here are some more shots... I'm going to spend some time today assembling a grow thread with all the pics I've uploaded so far from this batch. Then I can stop plastering them all over this thread..  Though I'm sure it's good to see RESULTS!! Shit, the crystal coverage alone is stunning with these PAR grows! And they bulk up nicely too! haha.



Okay, I'll stop dropping pics here til harvest probably... gonna start a separate thread for it from now on, lol. But I will still drop some harvest pics when the time comes, just to silence the naysayers


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

when i travel out west i let you guy know the locations in arizona and grand canyon if your willing to drive, i might be up in Washington too.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> You may want to look into it more, but you may have the elusive "male-hermie" given the order of sex appearance. Supposedly they are badass for breeding. Though I'm not a breeder yet, so look around to be sure.


this is what im hoping for becasue this motherfucker has been my 2nd favorite male thus far. (first place was a skunk and 3rd a NL )


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> this is what im hoping for becasue this motherfucker has been my 2nd favorite male thus far. (first place was a skunk and 3rd a NL )


Yeah, i had no idea about male hermies being a good and rare thing! Good to know, if I ever get into breeding 

Edit: Reppin' everyone I can in mah T5 fam!


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Last I checked, didn't the Cali supreme court overturn SB420? I thought limits were based on medical need now. Also, that 99 plant scrip is a scam. Unless his doctor plans on taking the stand and explaining why he needs 99 plants for his bad back (In a medically convincing way.), he just paid for something that gives him a false sense of security.


Here is what I found about it KP 

In 2006, San Diego County was sued for refusing to implement an ID card system as required under SB 420. In response, San Diego County filed a lawsuit against the State of California to overturn Prop. 215 and SB 420. San Diego Superior Court Judge, William R. Nevitt Jr. struck down San Diego's claim in the court's December 6, 2006 ruling. San Diego County filed an appeal in the case. The appeal was on August 1, 2008, and was thrown out again on the basis that the counties did not have the authority to make a case against the state. The counties do, however, have the right to make an appeal about the statutes in SB 420 that deal with the issuing of identification cards, as this task is placed upon the counties and affects their taxes. San Diego County along with San Bernardino County appealed to the United States Supreme Court. On May 18, 2009 that appeal was denied.[SUP][8][/SUP]

In SB420 it made it to where all counties have to follow 215 with the 6 Mature, 12 Inmature rules, and 8oz possession. SB420 allows counties to raise that limit not lower it. So it is county per county and your Dr has to prescribe it as 99 plants. If not it is 6/12/8 or whatever your counties limit is, which in humbolt and del norte its prolly 99 but i dont live there so i am not sure.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> when i travel out west i let you guy know the locations in arizona and grand canyon if your willing to drive, i might be up in Washington too.



Too far for me to drive or I would. Thanks though brother. heh, its funny that I want strains from out of CA when I am an hour from the bay area, hour and a half from medocino, 10 mins from placer and 5 hours from humboldt, but I think mixing some stuff from out of state would be good with some of our instate stuffs.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Here is what I found about it KP
> 
> In 2006, San Diego County was sued for refusing to implement an ID card system as required under SB 420. In response, San Diego County filed a lawsuit against the State of California to overturn Prop. 215 and SB 420. San Diego Superior Court Judge, William R. Nevitt Jr. struck down San Diego's claim in the court's December 6, 2006 ruling. San Diego County filed an appeal in the case. The appeal was on August 1, 2008, and was thrown out again on the basis that the counties did not have the authority to make a case against the state. The counties do, however, have the right to make an appeal about the statutes in SB 420 that deal with the issuing of identification cards, as this task is placed upon the counties and affects their taxes. San Diego County along with San Bernardino County appealed to the United States Supreme Court. On May 18, 2009 that appeal was denied.[SUP][8][/SUP]
> 
> In SB420 it made it to where all counties have to follow 215 with the 6 Mature, 12 Inmature rules, and 8oz possession. SB420 allows counties to raise that limit not lower it. So it is county per county and your Dr has to prescribe it as 99 plants. If not it is 6/12/8 or whatever your counties limit is, which in humbolt and del norte its prolly 99 but i dont live there so i am not sure.


This is what I found a while back on the NORML website for CA. http://www.canorml.org/news/kellyruling.html


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> This is what I found a while back on the NORML website for CA. http://www.canorml.org/news/kellyruling.html


Wow that left it really unclear. Says that limits are unconstitutional, but didnt strike SB420 from the books. So I guess county limits are in force unless you get pinched then you sue the state over it?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

i dont know if i was in calli i would be easier to take bigger chances as they already allow it... plus who comes over anyway? i dont think i let anyone into my house cuz ii grow


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

It's unconstitutional to charge you for violating it, however, they can still use it as a "guideline" when establishing reasonable amounts. So there is no plant limit, but there is. That's why your buddy's 99 plant card is iffy. He technically can grow it, but if they ever called medical need into question, he would need the doctor who signed that card to explain why he needs almost 5 times the established norm. in most counties. It's still illegal federally though, so you could go to jail at any time. Grow what you feel safe with, and keep your head down, that's really the only rule right now in CA from what I've seen.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i dont know if i was in calli i would be easier to take bigger chances as they already allow it... plus who comes over anyway? i dont think i let anyone into my house cuz ii grow


Yeah I have thought about taking the chance, but it wouldnt be till I build the grow box/room I am thinking about sometime next year if I do push it. Maybe I will get lucky and it will get clarified sometime this year lol.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i dont know if i was in calli i would be easier to take bigger chances as they already allow it... plus who comes over anyway? i dont think i let anyone into my house cuz ii grow


Up in the far norh of cali, it seems to be pretty much accepted. My neighbor is encouraged to shoot rippers with his paintball gun when they come into his backyard. Makes it easier for the local PD to pinch them for trespassing when they're covered in neon paint.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

quite being scared trust me, the laws where im at are pretty lenient if i get caught with up to 300grams cultivating its still a misdemeanor. up to 2000 grams 5th degree felony.. both of those sentences aren't very long IMO. if i chose to do this i have to be willing to deal with the consequences, plus this just make you a martyr for the cause i know no one wants to get caught but it happens all you can do is do your best to remain low key.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> It's unconstitutional to charge you for violating it, however, they can still use it as a "guideline" when establishing reasonable amounts. So there is no plant limit, but there is. That's why your buddy's 99 plant card is iffy. He technically can grow it, but if they ever called medical need into question, he would need the doctor who signed that card to explain why he needs almost 5 times the established norm. in most counties. It's still illegal federally though, so you could go to jail at any time. Grow what you feel safe with, and keep your head down, that's really the only rule right now in CA from what I've seen.


What I would really like is 24 plants in flower, 24 in veg and 2-3 mothers. So 50-51 so I could harvest 3 plants every 1-3 weeks. But until I can build my room/box that I want I dont see that happening without converting my Garage to a complete grow op.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Up in the far norh of cali, it seems to be pretty much accepted. My neighbor is encouraged to shoot rippers with his paintball gun when they come into his backyard. Makes it easier for the local PD to pinch them for trespassing when they're covered in neon paint.


now that is the best idea i have herad for ripper although i would have my gun hooked to an air compressor and freeze half the paintballs


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> What I would really like is 24 plants in flower, 24 in veg and 2-3 mothers. So 50-51 so I could harvest 3 plants every 1-3 weeks. But until I can build my room/box that I want I dont see that happening without converting my Garage to a complete grow op.



thats exactly what i do in 2 2x4 spaces. 21 plants in flower, up to 6 mothers and 30-40 clones, then a male or 2 in the container.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> quite being scared trust me, the laws where im at are pretty lenient if i get caught with up to 300grams cultivating its still a misdemeanor. up to 2000 grams 5th degree felony.. both of those sentences aren't very long IMO. if i chose to do this i have to be willing to deal with the consequences, plus this just make you a martyr for the cause i know no one wants to get caught but it happens all you can do is do your best to remain low key.


We also have tons of DoJ in our county right now. Atmoshphere is really bad in this county atm so I dont know that the risk is greater then the reward at the moment. Especially since I have no intention of ever making money on what I grow. I dont want to sell to the dispensaries here in this county cause of what too many of them have been doing, and I gave up selling on the streets when I was in my early 20's heh.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

total area it takes up is about 5x7x8. a whole room basically but i could do it smaller if i didnt run co2 plus i could really stack my 2 2x4 grow rooms and make it really condensed


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

DOJ? but no i mean i feel it i just dont worry about these # laws too much as if you caught you get caught a couple plants over 100 when your only supplying yourself and they have no evidence otherwise then i wouldn't worry thats all im saying.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Guys I finally started a thread, link is in my sig


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> DOJ? but no i mean i feel it i just dont worry about these # laws too much as if you caught you get caught a couple plants over 100 when your only supplying yourself and they have no evidence otherwise then i wouldn't worry thats all im saying.


Yeah I know what you mean and I agree. When I have the money to build I am sure that my desire to work with genitics will get the best of me and I will worry far less about numbers. I dont know why, but every day I get more and more interested in making my own strains, and I know that the SB420 limits will not help me one little bit in that regard lol.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> now that is the best idea i have herad for ripper although i would have my gun hooked to an air compressor and freeze half the paintballs


Yeah, except cali is gay. You'd probably get arrested for some form of assault. This is the state of shit gun laws and frivolous lawsuits. If it weren't for the weed laws here, I'd move to Wisconsin. haha


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> DOJ? but no i mean i feel it i just dont worry about these # laws too much as if you caught you get caught a couple plants over 100 when your only supplying yourself and they have no evidence otherwise then i wouldn't worry thats all im saying.


The feds are cracking don HARD all around San Francisco, I can understand the concern. Though they're mostly after the collectives or any large ops. Small timers with less than 100 plants arent really worth their time and money. Asset seizures net better profits when you're busting a collective with $100k on hand, rather than towing off old John Q. Publics pinto and trying to auction if off after busting his 40 plant grow op.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> The feds are cracking don HARD all around San Francisco, I can understand the concern. Though they're mostly after the collectives or any large ops. Small timers with less than 100 plants arent really worth their time and money. Asset seizures net better profits when you're busting a collective with $100k on hand, rather than towing off old John Q. Publics pinto and trying to auction if off after busting his 40 plant grow op.


Yeah SF counties are getting hit even harder then we are here and thats saying something. Just wondering, am I being too cautious? I was staying a bit small because of whats going on around here, and because I figured its easier to learn what I am doing by staying as close to the 6/12 as possible. Means I can focus on learning instead of running around trying to do too many things at once. what do you guys think?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

ok did some research into male hermies it seems i can be stress induced (fell much better) so the pollen is good hermie trait isnt carried in males pollen(another thank god moment) and its still a male so it will produce male seeds.

another thing is that males hermis have the ability to generate offspring with triploid leaf sets(chromosome set XXY and YYX like retarded human babys) so im gonna let this guy go on and see what i can do with him


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

i think do whatever your comfortable with.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> DOJ? but no i mean i feel it i just dont worry about these # laws too much as if you caught you get caught a couple plants over 100 when your only supplying yourself and they have no evidence otherwise then i wouldn't worry thats all im saying.


Remember, under 100 plants is no minimum sentence. 100 plants is 5 years minimum in federal lockup. So if you're trying to balance risk and reward, I'd stay under 100.

>50 plants- max 5 years (no min.)
50 to 99 plants-`max 20 years (no min.)
100 to 999 plants- 5 to 40 years


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Yeah SF counties are getting hit even harder then we are here and thats saying something. Just wondering, am I being too cautious? I was staying a bit small because of whats going on around here, and because I figured its easier to learn what I am doing by staying as close to the 6/12 as possible. Means I can focus on learning instead of running around trying to do too many things at once. what do you guys think?


There is definitely some wisdom in not biting off more than you can chew. I'm starting fairly small (9 veg/ 9 flower) with 3 people living here that have cards, so I obviously feel safer about expanding. Seeing as 3 patients growing a bunch of plans looks less suspect. Plus nobody really cares up here, so I'm probably not the best reflection of your circumstances.


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## ValleGrown (Apr 5, 2012)

Hey everyone. To anyone that is interested. I will be growing SNOW WHITE and GOD BUD under these new lights.

Here is my thread. 
www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/513382-sticky-icky-goo-goo-god.html

I would love any input 

+rep everyone


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm subbed up Valle... by the way love your sig, great movie.


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## ValleGrown (Apr 5, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I'm subbed up Valle... by the way love your sig, great movie.


DUDE that movie was a trip. It changed my life.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> DUDE that movie was a trip. It changed my life.


Heheh... it was sooooooo good the first time. What a plot twist. So well executed, I did not see it coming at all!


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

Subbed up Valle. Lookin great. Feel free to check out mine bro, love feed back. its in the sig

cheers


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## ValleGrown (Apr 5, 2012)

Watch it on acid. You will literally be spun the fuck out on why you work and live a social life. hahah

i realized that rock bottom is THE BEST PLACE TO BE. all it takes is a decision. 



" Why do you think i blew up your condo"

Because hitting rock bottom isnt a week end retreat!"


Ah man i loved that line


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> Watch it on acid. You will literally be spun the fuck out on why you work and live a social life. hahah
> 
> i realized that rock bottom is THE BEST PLACE TO BE. all it takes is a decision.


Haha, yeah man, I hear you. You just got to get comfortable with it and shed all the social stigma and subconscious influence. It's a challenge. But I've come pretty far over the years... gone through periods where I got rid of practically every possession... lived on the road traveling full time for a couple years... etc.etc... it's a lot of fun to shed society's expectations. Hell, I have to live that way, I'm a fucking full time aspiring musician, lol.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Haha, yeah man, I hear you. You just got to get comfortable with it and shed all the social stigma and subconscious influence. It's a challenge. But I've come pretty far over the years... gone through periods where I got rid of practically every possession... lived on the road traveling full time for a couple years... etc.etc... it's a lot of fun to shed society's expectations. Hell, I have to live that way, I'm a fucking full time aspiring musician, lol.


If you don't lead a diverse and slightly eccentric life, I'm pretty sure you get your musician card revoked. Plus, life is just boring when you do the expected. Keeps folks on their toes.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Right on!

We have slowly turned this thread into a chat room... We need a T5 Nation chat room...


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

That's because there's only about 7 regulars I think, we run out of profound things to discuss after a while.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> That's because there's only about 7 regulars I think, we run out of profound things to discuss after a while.


Yup, thats what it looks like. Until Prof or Pet Flora or UC come back with another brilliant idea that we will need to disect for 30 or 40 pages  Cant wait, lovin T5 nation!


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

The angle of the dangle is congruently proportional to the heat of the beat...



that's my contribution for the moment


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## PetFlora (Apr 5, 2012)

Hi guys. I have been posting on Club T5 as I think Pr0fs thread has done its' job.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

I bought my house about 9months ago, had all the jerks from work over to see it, then started up about 6mo ago... Ive only had 2 people in my home since then, my mom and one buddy. I have a pretend roommate that lives in that room if someone ever does come over (they wont). The people I work with are all either career LE/DOC or Mil SF, and every fucking week I have to fend off someone who invites themself over to play MW3 or something... nope.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Hi guys. I have been posting on Club T5 as I think Pr0fs thread has done its' job.



yeah but you get 2-3 posts a day there, 2-3 _pages _a day here....

this page gets alot more hits on google over its hundred pages, and brings in more traffic/new coverts to PAR.
Ive learned ALOT here (and taken ALOT of time researching on my own too) and want to give back to those that have questions... 

I disourage anyone from un-subbing, Ill find you!


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I bought my house about 9months ago, had all the jerks from work over to see it, then started up about 6mo ago... Ive only had 2 people in my home since then, my mom and one buddy. I have a pretend roommate that lives in that room if someone ever does come over (they wont). The people I work with are all either career LE/DOC or Mil SF, and every fucking week I have to fend off someone who invites themself over to play MW3 or something... nope.


Hah. People who invite themselves over never get invited over in my book


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Speaking of new stuff, I got bored yesterday and made a little grow box out of an unused cabinet in my computer desk. 

View attachment 2108291 Got to dig out my other mylar scraps to finish it, but it keeps around 88-90. So its great for germinating right now. Made a little shoebox DWC for in there once the big bud auto seed pops out of the rockwool cube. Got abou 2'x1'x18" of usable grow area after the DWC and lights. Think that would do it with a bit of LST?


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I bought my house about 9months ago, had all the jerks from work over to see it, then started up about 6mo ago... Ive only had 2 people in my home since then, my mom and one buddy. I have a pretend roommate that lives in that room if someone ever does come over (they wont). The people I work with are all either career LE/DOC or Mil SF, and every fucking week I have to fend off someone who invites themself over to play MW3 or something... nope.


5 bucks says half your SF guys smoke spice off duty. lol On a side note, MW3 sucked. Black ops 2 FTW!


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Speaking of new stuff, I got bored yesterday and made a little grow box out of an unused cabinet in my computer desk.
> 
> View attachment 2108291 Got to dig out my other mylar scraps to finish it, but it keeps around 88-90. So its great for germinating right now. Made a little shoebox DWC for in there once the big bud auto seed pops out of the rockwool cube. Got abou 2'x1'x18" of usable grow area after the DWC and lights. Think that would do it with a bit of LST?


It'd be interesting to see, My Auto Hobbit got about 18" high but I always wondered what would have happened if I had topped her ???


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Speaking of new stuff, I got bored yesterday and made a little grow box out of an unused cabinet in my computer desk.
> 
> View attachment 2108291 Got to dig out my other mylar scraps to finish it, but it keeps around 88-90. So its great for germinating right now. Made a little shoebox DWC for in there once the big bud auto seed pops out of the rockwool cube. Got abou 2'x1'x18" of usable grow area after the DWC and lights. Think that would do it with a bit of LST?


Your attachment isnt working KP


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Hi guys. I have been posting on Club T5 as I think Pr0fs thread has done its' job.


Haha... I still consider this place home. The Club T5 thread just isn't very busy. This thread is still seeing more action.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

in dont know a t5 chat room would be nice... but i like this better is a internet cache.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> It'd be interesting to see, My Auto Hobbit got about 18" high but I always wondered what would have happened if I had topped her ???


Topping is a consideration too, seeing as I've got limited height anyways. Running 100w in there now, with spaces for 2 more 26w if need be. Probably going to do the majority of veg in my veg area, lst it there, then transfer to the 2700k CFL's once flower starts. Plus I have about 30 of these seeds, and they were free. So why not experiment a bit?


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> 5 bucks says half your SF guys smoke spice off duty. lol On a side note, MW3 sucked. Black ops 2 FTW!


lol they're ALL alcoholics! I get buzzed on half a beer lol, then wish I'd had some koolaid instead lol. Buds over booze!!!! 

wait wait, BlackOps or MW2?? I couldnt stand BlackOps (it runs on the COD3 engine and wasnt as smooth as even COD4) BlackOps blew, I refused to play it and went back to MW2. MW3 is the same as the previous ones in the series which I loved (I was just happy it wasnt BlackOps) I did like some of the new things about BlackOps like the decoys and customizable icons etc, but the gameplay itself was horrible! oh well to each his own lol. sorry to get soo off topic ya'll


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

we can start a new thread but what about haters? and naysayers? you guys are mad cool. and we will have these other t5 guys trying to tell us to buy bulbs out of par lol.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Should have worked this time. I have no end of trouble with the damn uploader. That's what I get for using Ubuntu I guess.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> lol they're ALL alcoholics! I get buzzed on half a beer lol, then wish I'd had some koolaid instead lol. Buds over booze!!!!


HELL YEAH BUDS OVER BOOZE! haven't had a drink since is was under 21 actualy the last drink i had was on my 21st bday with my dad, 1 beer. last smoke 5 secs ago some bagseed weed i grew and hate, but trying to get rid of it and it has no value IMO

i just saw 3 pc cases on CL FREE i was thinking of getting and building some stealth boxes to sell. anybody know anything about CF bulbs?(other than they are slightly less efficient than t5) and there is a deal on a x2 96w cf square pin ballast 30$


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> View attachment 2108317Should have worked this time. I have no end of trouble with the damn uploader. That's what I get for using Ubuntu I guess.


Very very nice!


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> lol they're ALL alcoholics! I get buzzed on half a beer lol, then wish I'd had some koolaid instead lol. Buds over booze!!!!


Yeah that's how it is in the military; you either drink very, very socially, or nobody really trusts you fully. lol Alot of people started on that pseudo-weed called "spice" when I was in. Shit'll get you higher than weed ever could, but it's some bad stuff. Pretty much everybody was using it by the time I got out.


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Here is what I found about it KP
> 
> In 2006, San Diego County was sued for refusing to implement an ID card system as required under SB 420. In response, San Diego County filed a lawsuit against the State of California to overturn Prop. 215 and SB 420. San Diego Superior Court Judge, William R. Nevitt Jr. struck down San Diego's claim in the court's December 6, 2006 ruling. San Diego County filed an appeal in the case. The appeal was on August 1, 2008, and was thrown out again on the basis that the counties did not have the authority to make a case against the state. The counties do, however, have the right to make an appeal about the statutes in SB 420 that deal with the issuing of identification cards, as this task is placed upon the counties and affects their taxes. San Diego County along with San Bernardino County appealed to the United States Supreme Court. On May 18, 2009 that appeal was denied.[SUP][8][/SUP]
> 
> In SB420 it made it to where all counties have to follow 215 with the 6 Mature, 12 Inmature rules, and 8oz possession. SB420 allows counties to raise that limit not lower it. So it is county per county and your Dr has to prescribe it as 99 plants. If not it is 6/12/8 or whatever your counties limit is, which in humbolt and del norte its prolly 99 but i dont live there so i am not sure.



There is no such thing as 99 plants script. You can get a 75 as a care giver but you have to be an actual car giver. Like take care of old people. Or you will be sued by the state. 

In del norte its 6 and 12. In humboldt and mendocino it 100 sq feet per scrip and 3lbs..
Thats why lot of them do the hydro rings. In san jose there is no limit. But every where else if you have patient copies you can do as many as the copies you have. But exceeding 99 is a federal no no. Weve been rolled on before and the cops sad we were good. The number of copies covered it.

On march 1st in orange county, riverside county, and san benardino county. Appeals court judge ruled dispensaries.cam stay open and sell only what they grow on site. Last august the governor signd a bill which went into.effect jan 1st. giving counties right to ban dispensaries and the right for counties and cities do decide for themselves with out a vote by the people. The d.a. Of every county is still fighting the last ruling to bam.dispensaries. Thy want them.gone.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> There is no such thing as 99 plants script. You can get a 75 as a care giver but you have to be an actual car giver. Like take care of old people. Or you will be sued by the state.
> 
> In del norte its 6 and 12. In humboldt and mendocino it 100 sq feet per scrip and 3lbs..
> Thats why lot of them do the hydro rings. In san jose there is no limit. But if you have patient copies you can do as many as the copies you have. But exceeding 99 is a federal no no. Weve been rolled on bedore and the cops sad we were good. The number of copies covered it.



Ahh okay, thanks for clearing that up. I dont even have 12 plants atm so i am way under, but i am sure you can see my conserns right?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

i thought i had smoked crack again. made a bet with my buddy for 10$ said i could smoke a whole blunt..... never again that shit is poison i hope they do make that shit illegal, that shit is fucked up like ROBO tripping this why i only smoke weed anymore. maybe have a beer or chew some khat hell do a line, but that shit is on another level!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

oh im at 52 in my personal just counted.... all my other grows exceed that by far... but fuck it, thats then, this is now.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i thought i had smoked crack again. made a bet with my buddy for 10$ said i could smoke a whole blunt..... never again that shit is poison i hope they do make that shit illegal, that shit is fucked up like ROBO tripping this why i only smoke weed anymore. maybe have a beer or chew some khat hell do a line, but that shit is on another level!


Yeah, it got me so high before that I couldn't move, but my mind was running at full speed. The whole time I was convinced if I fell asleep, I was going to cease to exist. It was fucking terrifying, especially since I couldn't convey my concerns to the rest of the world. Plus it gave me withdrawals like it's cool. The only upside is that they couldn't catch me, because there's no test.


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> oh im at 52 in my personal just counted.... all my other grows exceed that by far... but fuck it, thats then, this is now.


Just get copies of your friends scrips. 6 x number of scrips is ok


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

i dont even know if i call that "high" i felt like a waterfall was washing over me yet my brain was free to move and walking omg... then i made me puke blood so i will never test new drugs again!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Just get copies of your friends scrips. 6 x number of scrips is ok


that wont matter to me. srry i could make some pretend scripts lol but i dont think they will accept that in my court(not in cally)


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i thought i had smoked crack again. made a bet with my buddy for 10$ said i could smoke a whole blunt..... never again that shit is poison i hope they do make that shit illegal, that shit is fucked up like ROBO tripping this why i only smoke weed anymore. maybe have a beer or chew some khat hell do a line, but that shit is on another level!


What the hell you put in your blunts. Here a blunt is weed rolled in cheap.cigar paper. Like a phile blunt or optimos


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## ValleGrown (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> oh im at 52 in my personal just counted.... all my other grows exceed that by far... but fuck it, thats then, this is now.


But fuck it


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> that wont matter to me. srry i could make some pretend scripts lol but i dont think they will accept that in my court(not in cally)


Im in cali too. I.have mine plus 8 different copies. So im legit. You got to know some one with a scrip. Every one has one.

When you go to a dispensary they keep.your copy to make them legit.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> What the hell you put in your blunts. Here a blunt is weed rolled in cheap.cigar paper. Like a phile blunt or optimos


what do you want me to call it a a hand rolled spice cigar?i could smoke lb of weed easy. im serious.

(we were talking about K2 and posh and shit)


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

K2 is no bueno. Drugs are bad mmmkay


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

I used to top a bowl with it for flavor awhile back, but I just prefer the smooth natural high and taste of good ol' mj. One thing I tried once and *never* will again is salvia... fuck no. felt like I was falling through the floor, but simultaneously felt the need to fight the freefall with everything I had. I was absolutely desperate not to fall through the floor I was sitting on. not fun


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

basically. never again tho. you live you learn. ya know?


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> K2 is no bueno. Drugs are bad mmmkay


!!!!!!!!!!


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

I'd rather go back to Salvia than smoke K2 spice again... (jwh-018 variety) ...and that's saying something, I hate Salvia, heh. But I trust it a hell of a lot more just because it's naturally occurring.

My experience with Spice that pushed me over the edge into "never again" territory was wretching up everything in my stomach and then about a half-hour of dry heaving while I whimpered with my head resting on the edge of a garbage can. Never again. I think I was convulsing, just didn't know it at the time. Fuck that shit. I would rather drink lots of liquor... and THAT is REALLY saying something, because I hate liquor too. 

And that was the day AFTER I tripped the fuck out on it and thought the world turned to plastic.. felt my mind enter "that space" where it's "just me" and "I know it intrinsically"... ummm... it was a feeling of utter dread. I realized I had "undone" the world, and that now I had to ride out the experience of being an entity floating in a black abyss of fucking nothing until the world decided to return...

FOR SOME REASON, my brain was like "Hey let's smoke more of that shit" the next morning. NEVER AGAIN.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

on my do not buy but legal list, 151, salvia, posh(or similar), or crazy hallucinogenic stuff on the internet 2ce or whatever my friend went schitzo off that shit(well probably a lot more than that but i dont know didnt share the exp just sold him stuff)


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

i dont know im sticking to weed and shrooms and maybe a beer or a line(i get cluster headaches in fact this is the only drug i use thats illegal that has a medical purpose for me other than i have rage issues without weed) . everything else is for the birds! salvia is a wild trip im not going down that road again. i feel it UC strong shit but like half strength of posh.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

In order of preference, my list is: Weed whenever, Caffiene whenever, Shrooms a few times a year, LSD maybe once every few years, oh, and maybe a glass of wine once a week. Occasional Adderall, maybe a couple times a year when someone else has some. NEVER let myself get a steady supply of uppers, that shit will own me.


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I'd rather go back to Salvia than smoke K2 spice again... (jwh-018 variety) ...and that's saying something, I hate Salvia, heh. But I trust it a hell of a lot more just because it's naturally occurring.
> 
> My experience with Spice that pushed me over the edge into "never again" territory was wretching up everything in my stomach and then about a half-hour of dry heaving while I whimpered with my head resting on the edge of a garbage can. Never again. I think I was convulsing, just didn't know it at the time. Fuck that shit. I would rather drink lots of liquor... and THAT is REALLY saying something, because I hate liquor too.
> 
> ...


Anthrax, virus', and cyonide are all naturally occurring as well!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

wish they would lock people up for thats spice shit. oh where im at bathsalt is where its at i was helping a friend who owned a corner store move that shit outside the store i couldn't believe it. from what i hear that shit is like mixing meth and acid. but we madde mad money from that stuff but i feel bad for the salt head cuz they were really fiends(i mean super fiends) for the stuff.

yeah i stay away from amphetamines too very counterproductive if you run  out and my girl has control issues with these things so i just keep em out of the house.


google jenkem if you want to know how nasty organic can get


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I used to top a bowl with it for flavor awhile back, but I just prefer the smooth natural high and taste of good ol' mj. One thing I tried once and *never* will again is salvia... fuck no. felt like I was falling through the floor, but simultaneously felt the need to fight the freefall with everything I had. I was absolutely desperate not to fall through the floor I was sitting on. not fun


My buddy got in a fistfight with a wardrobe while he was smoking salvia, because it was "talking shit". haha Needless to say, never trying that stuff.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Anthrax, virus', and cyonide are all naturally occurring as well!


Bring your trolling elsewhere. It's not like I said I only do naturally occurring drugs. I was just comparing JWH-018 to salvia.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

back to PAR so this is the line up for me 2 blue wave 2 6700 bluelife? what do you think?


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

I used to do and try everything, but for about 8 years now its just MJ and the occasional alcohol. Other stuff is just too bad nowadays.


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## pedro420 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> wish they would lock people up for thats spice shit. oh where im at bathsalt is where its at i was helping a friend who owned a corner store move that shit outside the store i couldn't believe it. from what i hear that shit is like mixing meth and acid. but we madde mad money from that stuff but i feel bad for the salt head cuz they were really fiends(i mean super fiends) for the stuff.
> 
> yeah i stay away from amphetamines too very counterproductive if you run out and my girl has control issues with these things so i just keep em out of the house.
> 
> ...


You are not kidding about that bath salt shyt I was useing it for a wile I got aholda a guy that made it so I got it super cheap and sold it to whoever wanted it then I started to do it one night I was watching TV and out of nowhere I was inside the TV then no was back on my couch and was watching creatures and people walk up and down my hall threw the walls and shyt it was trippy but I started to hear a bunch of stories about people over dosin on it and shyt so I stoped takeing it like that and I refused to sell it after I foundout that my ex girlfriends dad was tweeked out on the shyt and went missing for a week then turned up in his house one morning dead after that I put a stop to anyone in my town selling the shyt


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> wish they would lock people up for thats spice shit. oh where im at bathsalt is where its at i was helping a friend who owned a corner store move that shit outside the store i couldn't believe it. from what i hear that shit is like mixing meth and acid. but we madde mad money from that stuff but i feel bad for the salt head cuz they were really fiends(i mean super fiends) for the stuff.
> 
> yeah i stay away from amphetamines too very counterproductive if you run out and my girl has control issues with these things so i just keep em out of the house.
> 
> ...


It's pretty much crack and meth rolled into one. The bath salts I mean. My friend's ex husband got into that shit, it isn't pretty. Acts just like someone that smoked meth.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> back to PAR so this is the line up for me 2 blue wave 2 6700 bluelife? what do you think?


Not sure brother, I cant find the chart on the 6700 blue lifes to see its par


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Why do companies that make bulbs for coral or agriculture feel that a SPD chart is optional most times?


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Why do companies that make bulbs for coral or agriculture feel that a SPD chart is optional most times?


I wish that I knew.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

coral life i mean coralife damnit i have looked at so many bulbs im forgetting the names


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## pedro420 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Why do companies that make bulbs for coral or agriculture feel that a SPD chart is optional most times?



well imo they feel it isnt needed so that they can bend the truth about the bulb if they dont have a published chart they can tell you it hits whatever they want to 

but thats me just saying what i think as i have delt with my fair share of buisnesses that arent to truthfull


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

that shouldnt be optional but its a loop hole they use to their advantage for advertising purpose's show good spectrum pics and keep the bad one out. if you look hard enough ther is almost always a pdf somewhere but i would have to have the bulb in my hands to find it. (lots of variables so i cant just google the numbers on a website, i need serial codes, mfg #s, and probably some numbers off the packaging)
but anyways i meant coralife


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> well imo they feel it isnt needed so that they can bend the truth about the bulb if they dont have a published chart they can tell you it hits whatever they want to
> 
> but thats me just saying what i think as i have delt with my fair share of buisnesses that arent to truthfull


That's pretty much what I've thought.


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## falcon223 (Apr 5, 2012)

Alter those look sooo good. I think if you told someone you grew it under t5 , they would say no f^%$ way. 
It looks like everyone is doing good with the t5s. 
I am an old timer [Viet Nam vet] What the hell is bath salt???? Don't you bath with it?? like Epsom's?? 
I hope I can start my Co-lases seeds about the same time you do Alter. So we can compare the growes. 
I am still waiting on my seeds. 
I remember smoking ants when in Nam. I miss the old days , we could get mandrex. I called them pantie droppers. 
Give a girl a couple beens and off came the panties,. Good times.


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

Bath salts are the guise head shops and gas stations use to sell research chemicals.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Alter those look sooo good. I think if you told someone you grew it under t5 , they would say no f^%$ way.
> It looks like everyone is doing good with the t5s.
> I am an old timer [Viet Nam vet] What the hell is bath salt???? Don't you bath with it?? like Epsom's??
> I hope I can start my Co-lases seeds about the same time you do Alter. So we can compare the growes.
> ...


Hah. Thanks Falcon, they are certainly coming along. Can't wait to see how they finish out and what kind of numbers I see on it...

"bath salts" is just a guise... it's the name they sell it under... so that they can get away with it, basically. "not for human consumption" and all that. Llike the k2 "incense"

What the hell is mandrex? And smoking ants? damn, haha...

I'm planning to wait a couple more weeks before poppin' the colossus... quite probably right around the time these flowers finish. Hoping to pick up one more fixture in the mean time so that I can add the 4-bulb unit I have to the 10 bulbs I have in flower now for a total of 14... maybe get a new 6-bulb for vegging... of course then I'll be tempted to put the 6-bulb in the flower chamber instead... haha.


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Bring your trolling elsewhere. It's not like I said I only do naturally occurring drugs. I was just comparing JWH-018 to salvia.


My point is that just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good. Thanks for calling me a troll!


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> My point is that just because something is natural doesn't mean it's good. Thanks for calling me a troll!


Well, I agree with you. It came off as trollish to word it the way you did. Sorry for offending you.


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Well, I agree with you. It came off as trollish to word it the way you did. Sorry for offending you.


It's all good.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

Its funny, I find myself refering people to this thread so often on other threads lately. I have found it so helpfull that I seem to think that everyone should read it. lol, just realized it when my fingers just automaticly started typing a response in another thread asking about T5's. Had to share.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Alter those look sooo good. I think if you told someone you grew it under t5 , they would say no f^%$ way.
> It looks like everyone is doing good with the t5s.
> I am an old timer [Viet Nam vet] What the hell is bath salt???? Don't you bath with it?? like Epsom's??
> I hope I can start my Co-lases seeds about the same time you do Alter. So we can compare the growes.
> ...


Bath salts are the new crank, that's legal. They are sold at gas stations packaged as "bath salts" to avoid regulations, and therefore remaining legal.


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

I'll agree that it's way better to use actual cannabis instead of synthetic cannabinoids if you can. I'm however, looking for a job. I use am2233 and in no way do I claim it's safe, but it is an option for me.


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Bath salts are the new crank, that's legal. They are sold at gas stations packaged as "bath salts" to avoid regulations, and therefore remaining legal.


It's true that some of these research chemicals labeled "Bath Salts" are amphetamine anologs, but some are much different. For example the phenethylamines such as the 2c chemicals are powerful hallucinogens that rival the effects of shrooms and Lsd. 2c-e, is incredible! ...but not necessarily safe.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> I'll agree that it's way better to use actual cannabis instead of synthetic cannabinoids if you can. I'm however, looking for a job. I use am2233 and in no way do I claim it's safe, but it is an option for me.


Well then that explains your initial comment really, haha. Be careful with the stuff man, it's just plain not very safe at all in my book... heard too many bad stories... convulsions, cardiac arrest, etc... I don't know what am2233 is specifically but I stay away from the whole pile now...


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> It's true that some of these research chemicals labeled "Bath Salts" are amphetamine anologs, but some are much different. For example the phenethylamines such as the 2c chemicals are powerful hallucinogens that rival the effects of shrooms and Lsd. 2c-e, is incredible! ...but not necessarily safe.


I had some intense 2C-I trips several years back when they first hit the scene and were legal for sale as a research chem... the stuff is no joke that's for sure... very powerful.. but it didn't make me feel well at all... kind of scary. Tripping is a very "mortally aware" experience and I feel a lot safer when I eat shrooms, which have a documented history of being relatively benign on the body.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't get that in legal states, a guy that has a scrip for weed can't pass a drug test. Yet the guy that goes to the pill farm doc. for his norco's gets to pass. How does this even make sense? Felt like ranting because Wal Mart won't hire me because I use weed to manage my pain and sleep issues, instead of much more addictive and dangerous opiates, sleeping pills, and muscle relaxers. It's a sad day when doing the right thing and what's legal don't line up...


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I don't get that in legal states, a guy that has a scrip for weed can't pass a drug test. Yet the guy that goes to the pill farm doc. for his norco's gets to pass. How does this even make sense? Felt like ranting because Wal Mart won't hire me because I use weed to manage my pain and sleep issues, instead of much more addictive and dangerous opiates, sleeping pills, and muscle relaxers. It's a sad day when doing the right thing and what's legal don't line up...


I hear you KP, I think I may be running into the same problem with Apple. Just talked to my recruiter and they havent gotten my DT back yet. Been 3 days and she said that isnt a good thing :/


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## falcon223 (Apr 5, 2012)

Well I will steer clear of that shit.
Mandrex where, pretty good. You could eat them or smoke them. They where a downer, but didn't last long, taste lawful when you smoke them. I maybe spelling it wrong. they only give you a buzz for about 30 minuets. We called them mandes, or beens, I loved those things. You could get a lot of pussy.

Say Pet how is the Roots organic soil working out???


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/methaqualone/methaqualone.shtml

Ah, they are quaaludes... never experienced those!


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I had some intense 2C-I trips several years back when they first hit the scene and were legal for sale as a research chem... the stuff is no joke that's for sure... very powerful.. but it didn't make me feel well at all... kind of scary. Tripping is a very "mortally aware" experience and I feel a lot safer when I eat shrooms, which have a documented history of being relatively benign on the body.


Shrooms are nothing to joke about, I've had some overly intense not believing I was real trips on shrooms. As far as toxicity is concerned, they're safe.




kpmarine said:


> I don't get that in legal states, a guy that has a scrip for weed can't pass a drug test. Yet the guy that goes to the pill farm doc. for his norco's gets to pass. How does this even make sense? Felt like ranting because Wal Mart won't hire me because I use weed to manage my pain and sleep issues, instead of much more addictive and dangerous opiates, sleeping pills, and muscle relaxers. It's a sad day when doing the right thing and what's legal don't line up...


It's our wonderful Pharmaceutical Lobby hard at work.


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## falcon223 (Apr 5, 2012)

No, simaler , but ludes where better.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

quaaludes are way out your youngn eyes (im young but i know alot of vets that love thier pills had a bootleg version) imagine drinking a 12 pack in 30min thats about what feels like gives you giggles makes you horny. i dont discuss opiates often because was addicted, ODed, now i smoke weed. i havent taken pills for 4 years(other than medical reasons) and will never again unless its for a medical reason. anybody else her not eat Tylenol or any over the counter drugs? im have really high standards when it comes to doing drugs and the only thing im excessive with is bud...


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Anyone have luck with that 6700k SPD?


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

To get back to the subject...

I'm making progress on building my stacked t5 cabinet system. I'm going to use the standard 6500k bulbs for veg...I know I'll get chewed out for that 

For flower I was thinking FloraSuns and CoralWaves in this config: 
FS-FS-CW-FS-FS-CW-FS-FS. Substitute FloraSuns for whatever equivalent ...Ultra Growth wave, Gro-Lux...ect.
View attachment 2108483View attachment 2108484View attachment 2108485


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> quaaludes are way out your youngn eyes (im young but i know alot of vets that love thier pills had a bootleg version) imagine drinking a 12 pack in 30min thats about what feels like gives you giggles makes you horny. i dont discuss opiates often because was addicted, ODed, now i smoke weed. i havent taken pills for 4 years(other than medical reasons) and will never again unless its for a medical reason. anybody else her not eat Tylenol or any over the counter drugs? im have really high standards when it comes to doing drugs and the only thing im excessive with is bud...


I try not to take anything over the counter at all personaly. I find my symptoms get alot worse when I give myself that crap.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> To get back to the subject...
> 
> I'm making progress on building my stacked t5 cabinet system. I'm going to use the standard 6500k bulbs for veg...I know I'll get chewed out for that
> 
> ...


Flowering light pattern sounds good to me.

Veg, well you know what i am gonna say so i wont lol


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Flowering light pattern sounds good to me.
> 
> Veg, well you know what i am gonna say so i wont lol


I'm on a budget, and I've been using 6500k bulbs for veg in my current setup, so I know they'll work.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> I'm on a budget, and I've been using 6500k bulbs for veg in my current setup, so I know they'll work.


Understandable. I wasnt saying anything bad about it brother.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> I'm on a budget, and I've been using 6500k bulbs for veg in my current setup, so I know they'll work.


I like it


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> To get back to the subject...
> 
> I'm making progress on building my stacked t5 cabinet system. I'm going to use the standard 6500k bulbs for veg...I know I'll get chewed out for that
> 
> ...



I think you got it backwards, all these bulbs seem blue dominant from what I'm seeing. Red dominant for flower, blue dominant for veg.

I'd recommend a couple of these, but they're pricey and people have had problems with them in the past. The UVL RedSun. View attachment 2108489


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I think you got it backwards, all these bulbs seem blue dominant from what I'm seeing. Red dominant for flower, blue dominant for veg.
> 
> I'd recommend a couple of these, but they're pricey and people have had problems with them in the past. The UVL RedSun. View attachment 2108489


I've considered redsuns, but they do nothing for 660nm and eveybody is having problems with them. Each of the bulbs I posted hit 660nm, except for the coral wave which has the IR spike.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> I've considered redsuns, but they do nothing for 660nm and eveybody is having problems with them. Each of the bulbs I posted hit 660nm, except for the coral wave which has the IR spike.


But proportionately, the two bulbs you listed to use in your setup are both blue dominant. Seems awesome for supplementary light, but personally I'd try to make it more red heavy. It seems you'd be predominantly blue light with just those bulbs (Just based on the relative spikes at least.). As for the redsun problems, I think it stems from people fiddling with their bulbs before letting them cool properly. I haven't had problems with mine, they all fired up, and no endcap issues.


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## pedro420 (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I think you got it backwards, all these bulbs seem blue dominant from what I'm seeing. Red dominant for flower, blue dominant for veg.
> 
> I'd recommend a couple of these, but they're pricey and people have had problems with them in the past. The UVL RedSun. View attachment 2108489


They have discontinued the redsun/redlife bulb 

But they are working on makeing a new one accualy idk if it was discontinued or not hit they got put on standstill for a wile due to a falty batch they sent out


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## Beagle (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> But proportionately, the two bulbs you listed to use in your setup are both blue dominant. Seems awesome for supplementary light, but personally I'd try to make it more red heavy. It seems you'd be predominantly blue light with just those bulbs (Just based on the relative spikes at least.). As for the redsun problems, I think it stems from people fiddling with their bulbs before letting them cool properly. I haven't had problems with mine, they all fired up, and no endcap issues.


Find me a bulb that hits nothing but 630-670(that peaks around 660nm) with an IR spike and I'll be all over it like shit on a diaper!


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

I sill see them for sale. Though they may just be old. I bought mine back in Feb., so haven't really looked into them aside from a quick search on google shopping just now.


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## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Find me a bulb that hits nothing but 630-670(that peaks around 660nm) with an IR spike and I'll be all over it like shit on a diaper!


Good luck with that haha. I'm just saying that 2 red suns would give you a nice 630 spike, and help your R/B balance favor the red quite a bit more. They are a bit pricey though, so on a budget they probably aren't the best choice.


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

They have never been called redlife. They are redsun. I dont know where people got that. They stil make them. Aquarium specialty stopped to carry them because they got to many returns on them. All the other shops still carry them. AS was the only place that had bad ones. Me and one of my friends got ours from hellolights andvthey have been going strong for 10 months. And I recently got 7 more of them too. HL had a march madness sale. I got the redsuns for $14 each. Their mh and icecap.bulbs were 2 for 1 . They will probably have an easter sale too.


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> They have never been called redlife. They are redsun. I dont know where people got that. They stil make them. Aquarium specialty stopped to carry them because they got to many returns on them. All the other shops still carry them. AS was the only place that had bad ones. Me and one of my friends got ours from hellolights andvthey have been going strong for 10 months. And I recently got 7 more of them too.


eh.. Kelly at Aquarium Specialty said they replaced them with red lifes... I think I even have one that says red life on it... and I tried to purchase through a couple other vendors and they were out of stock around the same time, and having trouble getting more in stock. :shrug: Maybe I'll look up hellolights when I need some more tho..


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## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> To get back to the subject...
> 
> I'm making progress on building my stacked t5 cabinet system. I'm going to use the standard 6500k bulbs for veg...I know I'll get chewed out for that
> 
> ...


That sounds like a good flowering line up... couldn't hurt to work in a couple red-exclusive bulbs though, just to shift the overall spectrum farther red...


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## 48martin (Apr 5, 2012)

It would be great to have a collection of bulb SPD's, that are tested with the same parameters.


What type of equipment is used to create an SPD?


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 5, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Shrooms are nothing to joke about, I've had some overly intense not believing I was real trips on shrooms. As far as toxicity is concerned, they're safe.


I was speaking of the toxicity, yes. Obviously no psychedelic should be taken lightly...


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

48martin said:


> It would be great to have a collection of bulb SPD's, that are tested with the same parameters.
> 
> 
> What type of equipment is used to create an SPD?


A spectrogram is what the device is called I believe.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 5, 2012)

and why not a reptile bulb, do atinic bulbs hit that low? i would make your set up more red dom like everyone say why not coralife colormax?.http://www.petmountain.com/product/aquarium-t5ho-bulbs/11442-522697/coralife-high-output-t5-colormax-lamp.html


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## pedro420 (Apr 5, 2012)

So I've been looking for some where to get red suns from and nowhere has them is there somewhere I can get them that nebody knows of or should I just place a back order with hellolights


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## 48martin (Apr 5, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> A spectrogram is what the device is called I believe.


I wonder if you could rent one? It would be nice to be able to find out where your bulb configuration sits in real time.


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## keamy (Apr 5, 2012)

how do you think of 660 and 630 or 440 and 430?


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> So I've been looking for some where to get red suns from and nowhere has them is there somewhere I can get them that nebody knows of or should I just place a back order with hellolights


Marine depot has them in stock. If you buy 6 bulbs you get free shipping.

Hellolights is a very small store. But Dan is a cool guy though. Sometimes he would say he has.something in stock and did not. He had the fijis sent to me straight from the manufacturer. Did not charge me for shipping amd he replaced my ati and I didnt have to give him the non working one and didnt charge shipping there either. I triedbto go there to swap them. he told me to save my gas. Anyway thats why I like that store. Cool people, great service. The have sales alll the time.


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

48martin said:


> I wonder if you could rent one? It would be nice to be able to find out where your bulb configuration sits in real time.


Spectrogram is the software that makes the color charts. Radio spectrometer is what you read the bulbs with. Its $250 a day to rent or $5,000 and up to buy one.

We went through this with blue b who said they had one at his school and came up with what he thought was a fiji chart which turned out to be fake. Blue b disappeared


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

UC did you see the link I posted on 338 for the sylvania gro lux?


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## pedro420 (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Marine depot has them in stock. If you buy 6 bulbs you get free shipping.
> 
> Hellolights is a very small store. But Dan is a cool guy though. Sometimes he would say he has.something in stock and did not. He had the fijis sent to me straight from the manufacturer. Did not charge me for shipping amd he replaced my ati and I didnt have to give him the non working one and didnt charge shipping there either. I triedbto go there to swap them. he told me to save my gas. Anyway thats why I like that store. Cool people, great service. The have sales alll the time.




I looked on there site and all I could find was the vho I want the ho I don't think that I can use a vho in my fixture well I could just don't think it would run rite


----------



## 48martin (Apr 5, 2012)

Thanks hyroot. where would you be able to rent it from?


----------



## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I looked on there site and all I could find was the vho I want the ho I don't think that I can use a vho in my fixture well I could just don't think it would run rite


 http://www.marinedepot.com/UVL_T5_V_HO_Red_Sun_Bulb_633NM_VHO_Fluorescent_T5_Light_Bulbs-UV_Lighting_Company_(UVL)-UF5229-FILTBUT5VH-vi.html


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

48martin said:


> Thanks hyroot. where would you be able to rent it from?


I never rented one but I found a lot of places doing a google search. Some where in thisv thread someone posted links to a place.


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 5, 2012)

hyroot said:


> ....We went through this with blue b who said they had one at his school and came up with what he thought was a fiji chart which turned out to be fake. Blue b disappeared


Thank god too, notice how she got insulted once then okthanks comes back and tells everyone to go fuck themself... lol they were the same person the whole time from way back in december 




hyroot said:


> UC did you see the link I posted on 338 for the sylvania gro lux?


I did, but I think they're only sold in the EU arent they, I think that site was from the UK... I dunno about shipping to AZ, but they do look really nice. I'd love a pair. They look like the SPD that was broadcast for the Fiji Purple that was actually the NLite PURple... looks like that same SPD all over again, but I hear they are rather purple hue'd. I'd like a few, but not enough to pay more than I would for a RedSun, and Im debating if I want to pay $20 for a RedSun (I was back-ordered at HelloLights for 7weeks before I cancelled it)


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Im debating if I want to pay $20 for a RedSun (I was back-ordered at HelloLights for 7weeks before I cancelled it)


I'm afraid to ever have to order more redsuns. I got mine in a week, no backorder, all bulbs intact, no endcap problems or early burnout, I'm afraid to ever buy one again. lol


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 5, 2012)

Too much typing and not enough picture posting on this thread. You guys really growin buds or just talkin about it?

God Bud week 3


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## hyroot (Apr 5, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Thank god too, notice how she got insulted once then okthanks comes back and tells everyone to go fuck themself... lol they were the same person the whole time from way back in december
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They do ship over seas. If you spend $64 its free shipping with UPS. But if you want it faster, I forget how many days its like $55 or $65. 

Im debating on them but I want to see the spd for the new uvl 660 bulb first....


----------



## nuggly (Apr 6, 2012)

WOW Finally made it all the way through the thread! Been lurking for awhile really like the mutli spectrum T-5 concept. I like everyone else is tired of guessing on spectrums and waiting
for new bulbs. Found a few links to share but not sure if some of the cheaper spectrographs will be able to measure grow lights at 1 foot.
my light meter needs 2 feet plus or it overloads.

this one was interesting and really cheap
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/do-yourself/163931-diy-spectrometer-check-what-wavelengths-your-lights-give-out.html

The Red tide Spectrometer 350-100nm 1695.00 bottom of page
http://shop.spectrecology.com/Spectrometers_c19.htm

the jazz is interesting expandable and portable but more expensive
http://shop.spectrecology.com/Jaz-Spectrometers_c22.htm
http://www.oceanoptics.com/Products/jaz.asp

Thanks for everyones work it's very intersting!

nuggly


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 6, 2012)

GDP tipped and broke off the roots... Gravity is a vindictive bitch when you attempt to defy her. So it's now been pulled a week early (I think). It was about 90% red/brown hairs, and no new white ones for about a week at least. 

Didn't get much off her, but it beats nothing I suppose. 

On a brighter note, I have a GDP (Back left), ATF (Back right), 2x Cali Orange, and 2x Jack Herer coming along. With a 2 liter for reference. 

View attachment 2108868View attachment 2108869The Cali Oranges are the taller two of the 4 small plants. The Jack Herer's are the smaller ones, obviously.


----------



## hyroot (Apr 6, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Too much typing and not enough picture posting on this thread. You guys really growin buds or just talkin about it?
> 
> God Bud week 3
> 
> View attachment 2108816


----------



## hyroot (Apr 6, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> GDP tipped and broke off the roots... Gravity is a vindictive bitch when you attempt to defy her. So it's now been pulled a week early (I think). It was about 90% red/brown hairs, and no new white ones for about a week at least.
> 
> View attachment 2108864Didn't get much off her, but it beats nothing I suppose.
> 
> ...


----------



## jsamuel24 (Apr 6, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Too much typing and not enough picture posting on this thread. You guys really growin buds or just talkin about it?
> 
> God Bud week 3
> 
> View attachment 2108816



Still Growing here. Fire OG, Flowering week 1


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

my pics from yesterday are a page or 2 back\



this is my final decision for veg lighting for my 4 bulbs

wavpoint super blue x2 coralife color max and coralife 6700k


super-6700k-super- colormax (6700 and color max are on the same swutch to stay on 24/0 the supers are on 18/6)


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

i would like to have it super-6700k-colormax-super but i dont feel like opening up the fixture right now but i might


----------



## falcon223 (Apr 6, 2012)

You can veg just fine under 6500K, I would throw in a blue bulb or two if you can. 
I bought 3 red suns from hello lights, and all died in a week. My flower setup is way blue heavy, and I got 2 coral waves.
I think the coral waves make the buds frosty. I love the frosty buds. 
Alter you have some reail frosty buds, be shure to post pics when you cut that down.
I think my plants mature faster under T5 with the coral waves, and I get some funny grow spurts like was posted earlyer.
This thred is now to big for the naysayers to ignor.


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 6, 2012)

^^That sign is highly effective.


----------



## falcon223 (Apr 6, 2012)

Hellolights is having a sale this weekend, 25% off.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

so here my theory when you overdrive a bulb it shifts the spectrum to the red, could i overdrive my programmed t5 ballasts with the addition of 40w from a t12 programed ballast (95w total basically vho) and run some "redder" bulbs overdrived in the mix with my regular wattage atinics and blues. seems simple enough i am about to give this a go here in a sec. this would be the best way to get the most out af your fixture for flowering, the same result could be achieved by simply changing the t5ho ballast with a t5vho ballast but still running a 54w "redder bulb". but t12 mod is much cheaper and i have the parts and can sacrifice one of my crap bulbs will let you guy know if it lights and how it acts after a 24 hour burn, and also how the temps act wont benefit me but it seems like it could very useful to you guys


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## AltarNation (Apr 6, 2012)

Hey guys, little update on 660nm bulbs: cjd disappeared, he was supposed to contact me monday, so I guess I am not getting bulbs through him. I'm back to contacting Jeff at UVL directly for some. I am hoping he still has a few.

Hellolights, here I come!

Edit: Bah, it's only 25% of a handful of items. Nothing that interests me.


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 6, 2012)

Day 25

nutes: Maxibloom -Cal Mag - Roots Excel

Lights- T5 3 various mixtures of bulbs. The one doing the best thusfar is just 3000k bloom bulbs mixed with Flora Suns


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hey guys, little update on 660nm bulbs: cjd disappeared, he was supposed to contact me monday, so I guess I am not getting bulbs through him....


He seemed abit shady to me, only a few posts here and they seemed like he was just after $


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 6, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> so here my theory when you overdrive a bulb it shifts the spectrum to the red, could i overdrive my programmed t5 ballasts with the addition of 40w from a t12 programed ballast (95w total basically vho) and run some "redder" bulbs overdrived in the mix with my regular wattage atinics and blues. seems simple enough i am about to give this a go here in a sec. this would be the best way to get the most out af your fixture for flowering, the same result could be achieved by simply changing the t5ho ballast with a t5vho ballast but still running a 54w "redder bulb". but t12 mod is much cheaper and i have the parts and can sacrifice one of my crap bulbs will let you guy know if it lights and how it acts after a 24 hour burn, and also how the temps act wont benefit me but it seems like it could very useful to you guys


redder bulb? Just get some florasuns and be happy. 8$ea
Seems abit much to me, you realize you'd need vho tubes if youre trying to make your ballast push over the rated 54w. You can run a vho bulb in an HO ballast, but not an HO tube in a VHO ballast... Bulb will go.


----------



## pedro420 (Apr 6, 2012)

I would like to get my hands on a few 660 bulbs or atleast some red suns 
I've been waiting for uvl bulbs to come out sand searching for the red suns all I could find at marine depot was the vho bulb does nebody know of a place with the reg ho bulbs


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 6, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> He seemed abit shady to me, only a few posts here and they seemed like he was just after $


Same here. I might have scared him off with my cautious attitude. I was really throwing him through the ropes to make sure it was cool. I DID talk to Jeff at UVL and he confirmed that he had indeed supplied some of these bulbs to a fellow named Chris D, which correlates. So I don't think it was actually a shady situation, but I really wish he would have been a seasoned user so it was easy to trust him up front. And then he disappeared when he said he was supposed to contact me Monday so I don't know what to think. Fuck it though, I've got an email into Jeff to see if he has more of them.

Fed my ladies today for the first time since that big flush... took a full 5 days to dry out enough to rewater... and they grew SOOOO much in those 5 days... can't wait to see how they react to their first re-feeding.

And my "babies" are ready for transplant to their new airpots... just barely showing signs of N deficiency. Growth slowed way down over the last few days, so I knew something was up... I thought maybe they were just exceeding their container's size, but I thought the air pots were supposed to be so great because they could grow bigger and just air prune... I didn't even see roots coming out the sides yet, but I SUSPECT that has something to do with how hard it is to water the soil at the sides of the damn air pots in the first place. I'm NOT that happy with air pots overall. We'll see how they handle the new ones... this might be my last round with them though, because smart pots have not done me wrong and these are a pain in my ass: I took them into the bathroom to water in the shower today, just to make sure every square inch got hit with water before I tried to transplant. Water pouring out all over of course, but that's the only way to get water to the soil at the sides! I dunno, not my favorite design.

Just rambling about these here because i haven't started a log for these ones yet, heh. Anyway, I'm transplanting them to the bigger 3 gallon air pots later today, then they will go for the next 2'ish weeks to grow out roots in there... then they go into flowering, if the timing works out the way I'm predicting. This should work out nicely as it will mean that the FFOF will still be supplying nutes for roughly the first 4 weeks of flowering. Hoping I can hold off on nutes all together until then, but I might give them some very light doses of flower nutes to encourage bud development.

Time to go for a little run and enjoy some of this nice weather we've been getting... quick Q guys... should I wait a day or two before transplant or is it cool to transplant in a few hours? (seeing as I just gave them a thorough watering, that is why I ask)


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

hey UC been doing a lot of talking with the reef guys seems they have been running t5ho at 85w and 95w for a long time now. the studies show up to a 20% increase in par light. another thing is you guys need more lumens in flower yeah it cost more watts but it still keeps 80% efficiency.now the real downside to overdrivining bulbs (all fluoro are capable of being overdriven buy up to 2x wattage) is the start up voltage kills the bulbs as long as you keep the heat under control from the overdriven bulbs they should last near as long as normal lights.

also another note you could use programmed t5 ballast, well you could use a lot of different ballasts.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 6, 2012)

I dunno, at the risk of burning down my house, I'll leave the electrical innerds of my lights how they came


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

i love to play with electricity. and trust me this is a way lower risk than having a hps bulb in an open hood.


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## falcon223 (Apr 6, 2012)

Well it was a busy day at work today ,and busy for the mail man. I got my replacement bulbs from UVL today for the 3 red suns that went bad. And got my seeds to. I have been waiting on the bulbs for about 2 months. 

Lots to do now.


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## AltarNation (Apr 6, 2012)

Lucius I can't believe I almost missed that update, those look freaking LUSCIOUS... haha.. that was sort of a play on words, Lucius, Luscious... anyway. Great work. Do you have a grow log thread going?


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## AltarNation (Apr 6, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> hey UC been doing a lot of talking with the reef guys seems they have been running t5ho at 85w and 95w for a long time now. the studies show up to a 20% increase in par light. another thing is you guys need more lumens in flower yeah it cost more watts but it still keeps 80% efficiency.now the real downside to overdrivining bulbs (all fluoro are capable of being overdriven buy up to 2x wattage) is the start up voltage kills the bulbs as long as you keep the heat under control from the overdriven bulbs they should last near as long as normal lights.
> 
> also another note you could use programmed t5 ballast, well you could use a lot of different ballasts.


Certainly some very interesting info there man... I am intrigued about the overdrive success these reef guys are having... not quite intrigued enough to mess with my lights yet but I wouldn't be adverse to trying out some new arrangement with a new fixture if someone else does the leg work and research. :0] Definitely keep us informed on what you are learning!


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## falcon223 (Apr 6, 2012)

Ya he is doing some fine growing there.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Lucius I can't believe I almost missed that update, those look freaking LUSCIOUS... haha.. that was sort of a play on words, Lucius, Luscious... anyway. Great work. Do you have a grow log thread going?



Thanks man. Yea I started a grow with details earlier today. I don't think I'm gonna post much more on this thread because it's too hard to follow.


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## AltarNation (Apr 6, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Thanks man. Yea I started a grow with details earlier today. I don't think I'm gonna post much more on this thread because it's too hard to follow.


I hear that, LOL. It's so hard to find my own updates in this thread, that's why I started anew myself. Link us to your thread bro!


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## falcon223 (Apr 6, 2012)

My new bulbs say red sun UVL made in USA. Jeff is a man of his word. Good guy.


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## falcon223 (Apr 6, 2012)

Hay Altar, I think I might start some Kolossus this week end. I thank you for hooking me up with Sannes.


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## AltarNation (Apr 6, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Hay Altar, I think I might start some Kolossus this week end. I thank you for hooking me up with Sannes.


No prob bob... I am just waiting for my flowering to finish out, so you're gonna get a head start it looks like. Though I may jump the gun and sprout them a week earlier than i was planning (maybe next weekend) because I tend to forget that the first week doesn't need much light anyway. I'm sure I could fit them in with my vegging plants for a week.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 6, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I hear that, LOL. It's so hard to find my own updates in this thread, that's why I started anew myself. Link us to your thread bro!


Grow Journal will be here 
https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-fluorescent-lighting/518706-my-t5-lucas-formula-grow.html#post7258696


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

its all bad guy think i killed both my ballasts on my fixture, just hit up a guy on CL supposed to pick up a 6 bulb fixture tommorow for 90, on the plus side he has all the bulbs i need so i wont have to order bulbs. but im so pissed at myself right now. it should have worked! i dont know where i fucked up worker for a second then shorted out, not expected. so i had to throw all my t12 i keep for backups in there. im just pissed at myself for wasting 50$. overdrive experiments are on hold currently. next time im buying a ballast i can fuck up and not the one in my fixture. i dont know how but the ballast i fucked up fucked the other ballast too even though they weren't connected or anything. bout to pop them open here in a minute and see if i cant see what went wrong. super pissed shouldve listened but oh well got a new fixture coming post pics of the new fixture tomm. god damn im pissed right now.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

man im really pissed, just microwaved some widow pissed.


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## kpmarine (Apr 6, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> its all bad guy think i killed both my ballasts on my fixture, just hit up a guy on CL supposed to pick up a 6 bulb fixture tommorow for 90, on the plus side he has all the bulbs i need so i wont have to order bulbs. but im so pissed at myself right now. it should have worked! i dont know where i fucked up worker for a second then shorted out, not expected. so i had to throw all my t12 i keep for backups in there. im just pissed at myself for wasting 50$. overdrive experiments are on hold currently. next time im buying a ballast i can fuck up and not the one in my fixture. i dont know how but the ballast i fucked up fucked the other ballast too even though they weren't connected or anything. bout to pop them open here in a minute and see if i cant see what went wrong. super pissed shouldve listened but oh well got a new fixture coming post pics of the new fixture tomm. god damn im pissed right now.


Sure you didn't cook your plug? Some of those wall sockets aren't rated for much.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

yeah man im a wannabe electrician testers out the ass, no output from the ballast, and yes i even tried another plug.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

i just feel stupid because it should have worked. i think it was because there was a slight difference in design between the 2 ballasts. im gonna retry here soon with some different ballasts.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 6, 2012)

well now i get to ask whats my best 6 bulb set up here are my bulbs choices that are coming with the light along with a couple i already have.

x2 10000k aquasun uvl, x2 10000k coralife, x2 420nm truelumen, x2 460 truelumen, x1 coralife atinic, 3000k philips


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## falcon223 (Apr 7, 2012)

I don't play with electricity. I was almost blinded doing that. If are vegging thous bulbs might work. We like to see others experiment, and learn what we can. So you can use what ever bulbs you think will work. I have a mix of bulbs and try different ones from time to time. 

I have to say I did not think the over drive was going to work. It sounded to simple, and if it was easy to do we would all be doing it.
Remember there are a lot of electricians that are growing, and they always say to be safe. 
I was going to get another 8 bulb fixture, but cant come up with the funds right now. So I am going to supplement my T5s with a CMH.
I am in so much pain right now, I have to clean out my body for a DT. I am on opiates, and they don't work for me any more. 
The weed is best for my pain, but it also makes me laze. No simple cure. Man I heart, and have a tun of shit to do today.

I want everyone to have a safe and fun Easter. I take my Christianity series. God bless all of you. Even you atheist?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 7, 2012)

athiest me? no.... at least not exactly. any ways blinding dont know what you where doing but thats sucks. my funds are straight thats the only reason i can play around, i got plenty of back up supplies.

you are right overdriving isnt as simple as it sounds, when i get some concrete results i will let you guy know. trust me im safe. been electrocuted too many times. actually its too the point i dont really mind a mild shock, and for some reason every time i get out of the car i get shocked real bad nowadays.

as for the opiate withdrawl well once its over its over man. if you can get off the shit to where your body is no longer dependent that's the hardest part. my recommendation if you are strong(physically as well as mentally) is to sweat it out. meaning get outside with some water and some balanced food high in fiber chipotle or some sandwiches and excercise like a mother fucker, staying motion helps alot. i know the weed makes you lazy but you got to fight it get you blood pumping fight your bodys urge to simulate the opiate feeling, keep you adrenaline and testosterone up and you will feel better sooner.


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2012)

57 days


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## AltarNation (Apr 7, 2012)

Yeah yeah! GET IT GET IT! hyroot those look amazing! Close up bud shots plz? 

Those are so fat they put most of my colas to shame... I got one or two that size and the rest are skinny ninnies... is that 57 days from 12/12 flip or from flowers first developing or what?

Also, genetics?


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2012)

4 weeks veg, 57 days from12/12 flip to flower. Letting them go 63 days. Bubba kush (left side), soma rock bud ( right side). More pics later. Got to wait til they wake up to take more.


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## AltarNation (Apr 7, 2012)

Wow man, that blows my grow right out of the water. I don't know if it's my bagseed genetics or what, but that is way ahead of mine.


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 7, 2012)

Speaking of fire safety... Got these yesterday, 40$ each.

Automatic fire extinguishers, 4lb dry chem, one over flower box and one for the veg box and room in general


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## AltarNation (Apr 7, 2012)

Nice dude... been meaning to get me a couple too. Peace of mind when I'm out of town a couple days here and there.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 7, 2012)

smokeymarine said:


> How is it true that all the light is comming from more surface area? A 4 foot T5 is something like 5k lumens, so 12 is 60k, but that is spread over about 8 sq ft. If a plant is centered under the lights, 3" from the light then the light it is getting from the far end of the tube (which is more than 24" away) 1/32 as intense as the light directly overhead. I don't see how that plant could be getting as much light from the 12 tube 650W T5 light fixture (~60k lumens) as it would get from a 600W HPS light (~90k lumens). Does that make sense or is my brain not functioning properly?


This was a good comment/question Professuer should address.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 7, 2012)

hyroot said:


> 4 weeks veg, 57 days from12/12 flip to flower. Letting them go 63 days. Bubba kush (left side), soma rock bud ( right side). More pics later. Got to wait til they wake up to take more.


Lookin bomb brother. I am also growing a Bubba Kush pre 98 Katsu under mine. im only 25 days but lookin forward to huge buds like yours soon. Hit my journal for pics.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 7, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Day 25
> 
> nutes: Maxibloom -Cal Mag - Roots Excel
> 
> ...


Since it so hard to miss pretty much everything on this thread. Day 25


----------



## 48martin (Apr 7, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Lookin bomb brother. I am also growing a Bubba Kush pre 98 Katsu under mine. im only 25 days but lookin forward to huge buds like yours soon. Hit my journal for pics.


The pre98 works great under the T5's. ran that last year with just using 6500-veg and 3000-F and had great results. Now with everyones spectrum getting dialed in, everyone is going to be very happy. 

I love the smell of P98 in the morning....
-48


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 7, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> This was a good comment/question Professuer should address.


The same question applies to an HID and any other spot in the room. It has a single point of light and has to be much higher up making it even farther away from almost any point than the T5 can be. The inverse square law is especially vicious on HID's because they only have one point of light emission, as opposed to a whole tube. So the best light it can get is in a 1sq.ft. area. Anything beyond that and the inverse square law detracts from it's baseline measurements. So everything 2 feet away is getting ~45k lumens. So that should give you an idea of the power curve. Also, then there's the heat/wasted spectrum issue, plus all the extra A/C and fans. 

Also, T5 output is measure at 1' away as far as I know, so a light at 3" is almost 2times brighter than what the bulb tells you. Therefore, while it is 1/32 as intense at 3" as opposed to 24"; it is only *half of* *the bulb's intensity* at 24" when related to the fact that T5 output is rated at 12". So at 3" away, that T5 fixture smokeymarine used as an example is easily over 100k lumens. So, I'm pretty sure that the ~30k lumen loss from the other end of the bulb is somewhat buffered. Plus, being 3" away from your canopy gets ALOT more light to your lower buds, seeing as they get a baseline 8" closer to them than any HID can (At least without dropping another T5 fixture's worth of cooltubes and A/C.). Really, this is just the basic idea. There'd be alot of incremental math if tried to break it down as best I could; going off the distances of each of the 12 bulbs, lumens per inch of each bulb relative to location of this point, and probably something I'm overlooking. This should be enough to give you the idea though. You can work from there if you wish. Also, don't forget that HID bulbs are in theory much less generally efficient than our T5 setups. Heat removal, alot of inefficient spectrum use, and distance being paramount to this situation.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 7, 2012)

nice post KP  It sitll won't let me rep you, lol. But right on!!


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## kpmarine (Apr 7, 2012)

Thanks! Well, my work for the day is now complete. To the ATF!!


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## falcon223 (Apr 7, 2012)

Pet are those all T5 grown?? Because those are the biggest plants I have seen under T5. 

Polyarctus, I sweat all day long at work. And I really want to get of the opiates. I am pushing 60. But I can still work circles around the young guys. I am ex Military, and have worked hard all my life. 


T5s work, just wont blow HID out the water. But the buds look so much frostier and good. 
I am beginning to worry about the professor, no word in so time now.?


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## kpmarine (Apr 7, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Pet are those all T5 grown?? Because those are the biggest plants I have seen under T5.
> 
> Polyarctus, I sweat all day long at work. And I really want to get of the opiates. I am pushing 60. But I can still work circles around the young guys. I am ex Military, and have worked hard all my life.
> 
> ...


Wonder if maybe that bust from months back wasn't as small of a deal as he initially thought. Not trying to start a bunch of speculation or anything. Could really be anything.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 7, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Pet are those all T5 grown?? Because those are the biggest plants I have seen under ?



Which ones?


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## ValleGrown (Apr 7, 2012)

The only thing that i am totally stoked for is a Scrog with these lights. Get as close to quantity while still achieving quality


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## polyarcturus (Apr 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> well now i get to ask whats my best 6 bulb set up here are my bulbs choices that are coming with the light along with a couple i already have.
> 
> x2 10000k aquasun uvl, x2 10000k coralife, x2 420nm truelumen, x2 460 truelumen, x1 coralife atinic, 3000k philips


cmon guys help me pick six bulbs im thinking x4 1000k x1 420 atinic x1 460 atinic. just got my replacement fixture much nicer than the other one i had this one has 2 4in comp fans built in. it pretty sweet. im surprised by how lightweight these things are. im just happy to have my replacement and bulbs. i wasreally pissed yesterday.
oh well you live, you learn


post some pics here in a sec


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> cmon guys help me pick six bulbs im thinking x4 1000k x1 420 atinic x1 460 atinic. just got my replacement fixture much nicer than the other one i had this one has 2 4in comp fans built in. it pretty sweet. im surprised by how lightweight these things are. im just happy to have my replacement and bulbs. i wasreally pissed yesterday.
> oh well you live, you learn
> 
> 
> post some pics here in a sec


I approve, maybe toss in a bit of red though. It should do fine in theory though.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 7, 2012)

first pic is 2 1000k 2nd pic is all 6 2x 420nm 2x460nm x21000k ends up i just blew the bulbs tested one of the ballasts works fine now i have to rebuild that light... might still have to get another ballast.
this is with out the 10000kbomb ass built in axial fans!
 veg under new 6 bulb anxious about temps gonna check them later
broke my tomato plant. not paying attention..


flowering pics various ages between 2 and 4 weeks with the hps off, feel special cuz i rarely turn it off for pics.

tthhaaatts allll folks!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 7, 2012)

haha if you look in the flowering pics theres a plant reaching for the blue light in veg. that is very interesting, speaks for itself i guess, so have to be a believer now


----------



## pedro420 (Apr 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> haha if you look in the flowering pics theres a plant reaching for the blue light in veg. that is very interesting, speaks for itself i guess, so have to be a believer now


Hey what fixture did you get with the built in fans I have been looking for a good fixture with built in fans Bernhardt found a good price for them and not realy many options for getting them


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## polyarcturus (Apr 7, 2012)

i font know the guy i met had 3 LED panels(he said over a 1000$ a piece) for a 500 gal tank that i bought this light from. he was into this aquarium shit too deep like me and weed... anyways i believe its a tek light but it could be a corlaife fixture


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> View attachment 2111593View attachment 2111594first pic is 2 1000k 2nd pic is all 6 2x 420nm 2x460nm x21000k ends up i just blew the bulbs tested one of the ballasts works fine now i have to rebuild that light... might still have to get another ballast.
> View attachment 2111595this is with out the 10000kView attachment 2111615bomb ass built in axial fans!
> View attachment 2111616View attachment 2111617 veg under new 6 bulb anxious about temps gonna check them later
> View attachment 2111620broke my tomato plant. not paying attention..
> ...


Lights look good. Are you starting squash in there?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 7, 2012)

squash is upstairs in the widow sill, thats a cucumber, tomato, and hot pepper to the left


----------



## pedro420 (Apr 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i font know the guy i met had 3 LED panels(he said over a 1000$ a piece) for a 500 gal tank that i bought this light from. he was into this aquarium shit too deep like me and weed... anyways i believe its a tek light but it could be a corlaife fixture


Ok I'll see if I can't find any Coralife fixtures like that


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## kpmarine (Apr 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> squash is upstairs in the widow sill, thats a cucumber, tomato, and hot pepper to the left


Ah, it was the cucumber then. Haven't grown any of those in a while. Cucumber and tomato does sound good. Got some Habaneros and Bell Peppers started. Also some radishes growing for the hell of it in an empty corner of the veg room.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> View attachment 2111593View attachment 2111594first pic is 2 1000k 2nd pic is all 6 2x 420nm 2x460nm x21000k ends up i just blew the bulbs tested one of the ballasts works fine now i have to rebuild that light... might still have to get another ballast.
> View attachment 2111595this is with out the 10000kView attachment 2111615bomb ass built in axial fans!
> View attachment 2111616View attachment 2111617 veg under new 6 bulb anxious about temps gonna check them later
> View attachment 2111620broke my tomato plant. not paying attention..
> ...



Looking awsome Poly. Just looked at the date and realized I have to take pictures tonight. End of week 1 today.


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## hyroot (Apr 7, 2012)

Hi everybody


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## polyarcturus (Apr 7, 2012)

man i got to get a better camera this 3.2 camera on the phone doesn't cut it nice lookin buds hyroot. i would plus rep you but it wont let me.


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## ValleGrown (Apr 8, 2012)

I agree man those are Gonna turn out to be some intergalactic puffs man


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## falcon223 (Apr 8, 2012)

Dam Hyroot, thous look huge. what are you growing there?? I would like to know what you are feeding thos trees??


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## Kite High (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> haha if you look in the flowering pics theres a plant reaching for the blue light in veg. that is very interesting, speaks for itself i guess, so have to be a believer now


it is the blue wavelengths which trigger and guide phototropism


----------



## PetFlora (Apr 8, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Pet are those all T5 grown?? Because those are the biggest plants I have seen under T5.
> 
> Polyarctus, I sweat all day long at work. And I really want to get of the opiates. I am pushing 60. But I can still work circles around the young guys. I am ex Military, and have worked hard all my life.
> 
> ...


I am guessing you are asking me this question. My pic was of one sat dom plant. Dam thing grew and grew. I snapped it at ~ 3ft, eventually it was over 6ft long/tall. Many of the side branches were >3ft. Unfortunately, during mid flower my pH meter began to die, giving me false readings, consequently I was way over adding H down and burned it from the inside out.Still got a decent harvest, which was quite good smoke-wise. I pollinated her with a short Indica dom plant and am now growing 7 of those crosses, looking for best overall size and bushiness to clone.

I have been in communication with Pr0f. He says he is traveling, but has some goodies to present soon


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## hyroot (Apr 8, 2012)

Bulb change up giggity......... Flora sun / redsun / coral wave / redsun / flora sun / fiji / redsun / flora sun x 3


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Bulb change up giggity......... Flora sun / redsun / coral wave / redsun / flora sun / fiji / redsun / flora sun x 3



Love it! Id personally prefer another coral wave instead of the fiji, but otherwise I think thats perfect. Nice deep magenta hue from that combo.


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Bulb change up giggity......... Flora sun / redsun / coral wave / redsun / flora sun / fiji / redsun / flora sun x 3


Almost exactly what I'm rollin'...  Not exactly the same numbers but all the same bulbs. I could use another Red Sun in there!!


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 8, 2012)

Happy Easter ya'll. Im at work (like usual) but it could always be worse.


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Happy Easter ya'll. Im at work (like usual) but it could always be worse.


UC, are you really a cop? heh.

Happy Easter!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

Merry christmas!


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## 48martin (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Almost exactly what I'm rollin'...  Not exactly the same numbers but all the same bulbs. I could use another Red Sun in there!!


Almost exactly what Im running also.. - the fiji and + coral wave

Good luck with it and Happy Easter everyone! 

-48


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## ValleGrown (Apr 8, 2012)

Is it just me or am I like the only person who hates Easter. ... 

Idk man it just stresses me out. Terribly.


----------



## jsamuel24 (Apr 8, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> Is it just me or am I like the only person who hates Easter. ...
> 
> Idk man it just stresses me out. Terribly.



Your not the only one brother. I hate Easter, I hate having to cook dinner, I hate that my lights arent on yet so i cant even go in and talk to my plants to avoid family lol


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## kpmarine (Apr 8, 2012)

Happy zombie jesus day!


----------



## falcon223 (Apr 8, 2012)

Well to each his Owen. But I could convert anyone. 
Say Altar, I got 2 Kolossus in the seed starter. hope they pop. I hope to get two females. Just never know. I did some work on the room today and have bin Abel to keep the temp down around 76 degrees, that may help get some girls. Cant wait to get this strain going. 
I am going all organic this time. Having a hard time finding good worm castings at a good price. It is the shipping that is ridicules. 
It looks like hyroot is the man, with this T5 growing. I need his recipe, but he is not giving it up.

My new red suns are going good so far. Good Easter to you all, I love any day I dont have to work.


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 8, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Well to each his Owen. But I could convert anyone.
> Say Altar, I got 2 Kolossus in the seed starter. hope they pop. I hope to get two females. Just never know. I did some work on the room today and have bin Abel to keep the temp down around 76 degrees, that may help get some girls. Cant wait to get this strain going.
> I am going all organic this time. Having a hard time finding good worm castings at a good price. It is the shipping that is ridicules.
> It looks like hyroot is the man, with this T5 growing. I need his recipe, but he is not giving it up.
> ...


Everyone swears by Subcools super soil recipe around here. You should check that out.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Well to each his Owen. But I could convert anyone.
> Say Altar, I got 2 Kolossus in the seed starter. hope they pop. I hope to get two females. Just never know. I did some work on the room today and have bin Abel to keep the temp down around 76 degrees, that may help get some girls. Cant wait to get this strain going.
> I am going all organic this time. Having a hard time finding good worm castings at a good price. It is the shipping that is ridicules.
> It looks like hyroot is the man, with this T5 growing. I need his recipe, but he is not giving it up.
> ...



Man, you gotta hit local places for soil supplies... fuck those shipping costs, they are rough. I'm looking forward to seeing your Kolossus start up bro!! I can't waaaait to see the bud size on those... 

Hyroot is kicking some ass, and I'd love to know what he's feeding too


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Everyone swears by Subcools super soil recipe around here. You should check that out.


True enough... I have been lazy about getting the ingredients together though, and they are supposed to sit for a full month in the sunlight before you use them. I think I will start my new seeds in a standard mix, FFOF or maybe Happy Frog, and then transfer into subcool's mix if I can get it put together ASAP. Otherwise, I'm gonna invest in some Earth Juice for my first "real genetics" grow.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

oh man if you guys want to delve into the mysteries of organic growing come to me. not to say subs soil isnt good, but that soil is overrated and i guarantee that's not his personal mix because that mix is for beginners in organics.

i will help you tailor make your soil to suit your needs and wants from it, i accordance to want kind of fertilizing/watering system.

if your interested im gonna need to know what all you want to to what products you have and what products you like to use and a budget. (50-150$ is my average budget for soil one time forever 150 then maybe 50$ in product to refresh it 6 mo later i reuse my soil.)


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

Poly... my ideal blend is something that can allow me to forgo as much nutrient additive as possible... I would love to put together a soil that never needs to be fertilized and can get through a month of veg and 2 mo's of flowering without ever having to do anything but watering. Haha. Is that a reasonable expectation? I like worm castings as opposed to other poops because it doesn't smell much, haha. Other than that, I don't know, have at it. The whole reason subcool's mix is attractive IS because it's for beginners and I don't know what I'm doing. :0] So if you have a basic idea of what one could put together with relatively common ingredients, have at it... certainly don't know what to tell you as far as what I'd want to use, haha... if I did, I'd make the soil mix plans myself... ya dig?


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## hyroot (Apr 8, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Well to each his Owen. But I could convert anyone.
> Say Altar, I got 2 Kolossus in the seed starter. hope they pop. I hope to get two females. Just never know. I did some work on the room today and have bin Abel to keep the temp down around 76 degrees, that may help get some girls. Cant wait to get this strain going.
> I am going all organic this time. Having a hard time finding good worm castings at a good price. It is the shipping that is ridicules.
> It looks like hyroot is the man, with this T5 growing. I need his recipe, but he is not giving it up.
> ...


I make teas. 4 gal recipe


Veg - 
1/2 cup earth juice rainbow mix grow 5-5-2
5 tbs botanicare strapped molasses
2 tbs epsom salt 
3 egg shells cooked and crushed
4 tsp age old liquid kelp

Early flower
1/4 cup rainbow mix grow 5-5-2
1/2 cup rainbow mix bloom 0-9-2
4 tsp age old liquid kelp
2 tbs epsom salt
2 egg shells cooked and crushed
5 tbs molasses

Late flower
1/4 cup rainbow mix grow 5-5-2
1/2 cup earth juice primal harvest 0-12-1
5 tbs molasses
2 tbs epsom salt 
2 egg shells cooked and crushed
4.tsp age old liquid kelp.... No kelp last 2 weeks

Last week flush with 2 tbss molasses. Last water only water.

Sit em in the dark for 18 hours to 30 hours then chop.


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I make teas. 4 gal recipe
> 
> 
> Veg -
> ...



Hyroot you're awesome for sharing that with us all. Do you bubble the teas? How long do they need to sit before use?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Poly... my ideal blend is something that can allow me to forgo as much nutrient additive as possible... I would love to put together a soil that never needs to be fertilized and can get through a month of veg and 2 mo's of flowering without ever having to do anything but watering. Haha. Is that a reasonable expectation? I like worm castings as opposed to other poops because it doesn't smell much, haha. Other than that, I don't know, have at it. The whole reason subcool's mix is attractive IS because it's for beginners and I don't know what I'm doing. :0] So if you have a basic idea of what one could put together with relatively common ingredients, have at it... certainly don't know what to tell you as far as what I'd want to use, haha... if I did, I'd make the soil mix plans myself... ya dig?


reasonable and cona be done easily, the main problem will not be not enough nutes but possibly burning plants from hot soil, plus you cant really reuse soil that is hot like that, you will have to replenish it heavily but it can be done, basically thats what ffof straight out of the bag is. but i can custom make yours and it would last all the way till near end of bloom.

i personally like to have my soil nute concentration low and slow(breaking down), so i can use what ever nutes i want and the plant will still be in constant contact with nutrients. but this is preference. 

let me get back with a good mix with decent veg nutes and a good breakdown of P after 3 month's for flower, what do you want your soil base(the majority component) to be, coco coir, peat moss, or perlite?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

*NUTRIENT, PESTICIDE AND SOIL MIXTURES*
*SOIL COMPONENTS:*
_ROCK_: perlite, vermiculite, gravel, green sand,  
_INERT_eat moss, coco coir,
_FERTILIZER_: worm casting, manure/guano, bonemeal,  
my soil mixture tends to have a little bit of everything I will usual use a versatile organic soil that comes in a 20lb. Bag such as roots organic, or ocean forest in combination with a pH balanced peat-moss find it in a bale I recommend pro-mix or b-cuzz. I mix at a rate of 1 20lb. Bag of soil, 1 20lb. Bag of worm castings to half a bale of peat-moss. That is 2 bags of soil and 2 bags of worm castings to 1 bale of peat-moss.( I also mix about ½lb.- 1lb. Of dolomite lime in the mix to balance pH) and 4cft ofboth vermiculate and perlite or 2cft of both for a half batch
*NUTRIENTS:*
*A STYLE*
_STANDARD WATER_: pH 6.2-6.8  
Vitamin pill: ½ pill as needed Sterile enzymes: 5 ml
DIRECTIONS: clean 5 gallon bucket is filled to top with tap water or reverse osmosis filtered water. then nutrients are measured and mixed in. solution is aerated with regular air (not co2 enriched) using a air pump and air stone.  
_VEGITATIVE COMPOST TEA_: pH 6.4-6.8
worm castings: 4.5 tbs Mexican guano: 4.5tbs
Bone meal: .5 tsp Pure blend: 1oz
Fungus: 5cc / .5 tsp Seaweed extract: 1oz
Carbohydrate: 3oz
DIRECTIONS:5 gallon bucket is filled to top with tap water or reverse osmosis filtered water. Compost tea buckets do not need to be cleaned as they will harbor bacterium and fungus useful to the plant. A large air stone is placed at the bottom of the bucket. Dry ingredients are put in a mesh bag and tied shut with a twist tie. Dry ingredients in bag are then placed in water and liquid ingredients are then added solution is to be left alone for 24 hours, then it is to be aerated/agitated for 24 more hours once again with regular air.
_FLOWERING COMPOST TEA_: pH 6.0-6.5
Worm castings: 4.5tbs Mexican guano: 3.0tbs
Peruvian guano: 1.5 tbs Pure blend: 1oz
Fungus: 5cc Seaweed extract: 1oz
Carbohydrate: 3oz
DIRECTIONS:5 gallon bucket is filled to top with tap water or reverse osmosis filtered water. A large air stone is placed at the bottom of the bucket. Dry ingredients are put in a mesh bag and tied shut with a twist tie. Dry ingredients in bag are then placed in water and liquid ingredients are then added solution is to be left alone for 24 hours, then it is to be aerated/agitated for 24 more hours.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> reasonable and cona be done easily, the main problem will not be not enough nutes but possibly burning plants from hot soil, plus you cant really reuse soil that is hot like that, you will have to replenish it heavily but it can be done, basically thats what ffof straight out of the bag is. but i can custom make yours and it would last all the way till near end of bloom.
> 
> i personally like to have my soil nute concentration low and slow(breaking down), so i can use what ever nutes i want and the plant will still be in constant contact with nutrients. but this is preference.
> 
> let me get back with a good mix with decent veg nutes and a good breakdown of P after 3 month's for flower, what do you want your soil base(the majority component) to be, coco coir, peat moss, or perlite?


I hear that, FFOF only has enough nutes for like 6 weeks though so it definitely needs follow up feeding. Honestly I don't know what is best, I am not experienced with soil beyond FFOF, heh. I have heard peat moss has acidity issues, is that right? So leaning towards coco or perlite base?

Honestly I am curious as to what you would recommend for someone who doesn't know WTF they are doing, hahaha.

I'm looking at what you posted above and I feel fucking overwhelmed already, ROFL. But don't feel like you have to hold my hand, I will have to start researching this stuff heavily myself anyway if I'm ever gonna get good at this... 

I have heard people complain about using strong soils due to not being able to control what fertilizers the plant can get when it needs it, etc... is that something that concerns you? What happens if it DOES burn? You're just fucked? heh.

BTW, we are getting this thread way off topic... maybe you could start a new thread in the organics forum about this and we can talk about it there? Or you can send me PMs? Seems like info that would be useful to others though, so maybe a new thread would be good!



> i personally like to have my soil nute concentration low and slow(breaking down), so i can use what ever nutes i want and the plant will still be in constant contact with nutrients. but this is preference.
> 
> let me get back with a good mix with decent veg nutes and a good breakdown of P after 3 month's for flower, what do you want your soil base(the majority component) to be, coco coir, peat moss, or perlite?


So you're saying that certain elements of this mix won't provide the P needed until flowering because it takes time for it to break down in a way that will provide it? Which elements are providing it? Soil mixes seem so complicated when I have no idea what i'm doin, heh.


----------



## Undercover Cop (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Honestly I am curious as to what you would recommend for someone who doesn't know WTF they are doing, hahaha.



HYDRO! DWC!!! Ive done soil.. never again! I dunno, to each his own, but a sterile DWC is the simplest way that ive found. No need to worry about the mircro-environment / microbes / bennies etc, just give the straight nutes in 5.5ph water with an air rock... easy peasy baby


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

now when making your own soil there are your slow acting nutrient and fast acting nutrients. to make a good soil start with some basic non-fertilized potting soil. go and collect worm castings, dolomite lime, greensand, bonemeal, high N guano, and some kind of fibrous manure (steer, deer, goat, horse any mammal) this would get you pretty far mixed with some vermiculite perlite and peatmoss.
here a little mix off the top of my head
1 20lb bag of potting soil
1lb of high N guano
1lb of green sand
4 cups of bone meal
20lb bag of worm casting
10lb of manure
2cft of vermiculate
2cft of perlite
this would get you all the way to mid flower


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

now we're talkin, that's nice and simple and straight forward  Thanks... I will start looking around locally for some ingredients and see what I can pull together... gonna make a lil shopping list.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I hear that, FFOF only has enough nutes for like 6 weeks though so it definitely needs follow up feeding. Honestly I don't know what is best, I am not experienced with soil beyond FFOF, heh. I have heard peat moss has acidity issues, is that right? So leaning towards coco or perlite base?
> 
> Honestly I am curious as to what you would recommend for someone who doesn't know WTF they are doing, hahaha.
> 
> ...


fox farm will make it all the way to the end, its just got a lot of material that can be broken down by bennies so most people who dont just water water end up using all the available nutrient way before their time. peat moss is great, dolomite lime takes care of this and promix peat moss has both dolomite and perlite mixed in. yeah i will start a thread with some soil help mostly been thinking about doing that.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> HYDRO! DWC!!! Ive done soil.. never again! I dunno, to each his own, but a sterile DWC is the simplest way that ive found. No need to worry about the mircro-environment / microbes / bennies etc, just give the straight nutes in 5.5ph water with an air rock... easy peasy baby


Hahaha... and there we go in the opposite direction. So many options.  What kind of nutes do you use in a DWC setup? I am wondering if I can use the FoxFarm nutes I bought in DWC... I've noticed they have a "hydroponic" version of each of their liquids, not sure about the solids.

I'd like to try DWC eventually but I'm not set up for it yet... still, if I'm gonna drop a bunch of money on soil ingredients I could probably go buy some hydro supplies instead... 

*head spinning*

Are you guys trying to play pin the tail on the donkey with me here? LOL


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> fox farm will make it all the way to the end, its just got a lot of material that can be broken down by bennies so most people who dont just water water end up using all the available nutrient way before their time. peat moss is great, dolomite lime takes care of this and promix peat moss has both dolomite and perlite mixed in. yeah i will start a thread with some soil help mostly been thinking about doing that.


Well my FFOF have shown N deficiency around 6 weeks in the past... but I guess I might have jumped the gun and started adding nutes early since I was trying to follow their sched... I'm starting to see it now on my air pot babies, which are gonna be transplanted to bigger containers shortly so they should get some more food from that... what the heck am I doing wrong if there's supposed to be enough to go a whole run?


----------



## jsamuel24 (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hahaha... and there we go in the opposite direction. So many options.  What kind of nutes do you use in a DWC setup? I am wondering if I can use the FoxFarm nutes I bought in DWC... I've noticed they have a "hydroponic" version of each of their liquids, not sure about the solids.
> 
> I'd like to try DWC eventually but I'm not set up for it yet... still, if I'm gonna drop a bunch of money on soil ingredients I could probably go buy some hydro supplies instead...
> 
> ...


I want to build a DWC setup badly, but my problem is all my clones and seedlings right now are in soil. So I dont get the fun of Earth Juice Hydroponics for at least a year the way my veg holder is looking. Though I may end up trashing half of my Fire OG clones if they dont start showing some better signs of recovery from the heat stress they got the day I brought them home.


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 8, 2012)

Coco>Maxibloom on Drip> Done.


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 8, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> I want to build a DWC setup badly, but my problem is all my clones and seedlings right now are in soil. So I dont get the fun of Earth Juice Hydroponics for at least a year the way my veg holder is looking. Though I may end up trashing half of my Fire OG clones if they dont start showing some better signs of recovery from the heat stress they got the day I brought them home.


You can transplant clones in soil into DWC, I've done it sevreal times now with no problems. That's only dixie cup sized though. Thoughh, I also use the big baskets.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

Okay I officially hate you all, LOL.

I kid I kid... but seriously there are too many options and my head is spinning...

I like options but I am prone to indecision, haha. I like the idea of fast grow cycles with DWC, that's for sure..


----------



## jsamuel24 (Apr 8, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> You can transplant clones in soil into DWC, I've done it sevreal times now with no problems. That's only dixie cup sized though.



They are all in red solo cups, and I am sure they are root bound to hell. Friend moved and he still had 10 clones left that he didnt have room for in his new tent, so I took em instead of them just being trashed.


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Okay I officially hate you all, LOL.
> 
> I kid I kid... but seriously there are too many options and my head is spinning...


I know, it's ridiculous how many ways there are to grow a plant. haha


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

DWC is for those with # limits IMO yield for yield in soil i can get a better yield quicker, with more plants, its just DWC is like taking one plant and making it the size of 6 plants it takes time. 2 very different styles. as a far a nutes go all hydro nutes can be used in soil but not vice versa. i love soil but honestly my favorite sytem is aero and if we are talking about investing, well lets just make it worth while, i can help you design that too. but i will say im more the expert at soil. it up to you man. i have done both DWC and soil, i love DWC but soil is faster(if you know what your doing!)


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> You can transplant clones in soil into DWC, I've done it sevreal times now with no problems. That's only dixie cup sized though. Thoughh, I also use the big baskets.



i do it often too. but i kinda gave up on the DWC due to my rooms size restrictions couldn't do both and i know soil and organics like the back of my cock


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> DWC is for those with # limits IMO yield for yield in soil i can get a better yield quicker, with more plants, its just DWC is like taking one plant and making it the size of 6 plants it takes time. 2 very different styles. as a far a nutes go all hydro nutes can be used in soil but not vice versa. i love soil but honestly my favorite sytem is aero and if we are talking about investing, well lets just make it worth while, i can help you design that too. but i will say im more the expert at soil. it up to you man. i have done both DWC and soil, i love DWC but soil is faster(if you know what your doing!)


Really? I had allways heard the oposite the DWC is faster then soil. I am limited on space. My 3 plants under a scrog really stretch my limit allready thats part of the reason I was thinking DWC. What do you guys think.

ED: Of course I could also get off my lazy ass and clean my garage so I can build a bigger grow room, or a grow cabinet that I have an idea for.


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> DWC is for those with # limits IMO yield for yield in soil i can get a better yield quicker, with more plants, its just DWC is like taking one plant and making it the size of 6 plants it takes time. 2 very different styles. as a far a nutes go all hydro nutes can be used in soil but not vice versa. i love soil but honestly my favorite sytem is aero and if we are talking about investing, well lets just make it worth while, i can help you design that too. but i will say im more the expert at soil. it up to you man. i have done both DWC and soil, i love DWC but soil is faster(if you know what your doing!)


That's pretty fascinating there... I thought the main bene of hydro was faster growth rates and therefore shorter cycles. I'm not looking to limit #'s necessarily, I was more interested in the idea of a faster growth cycle from start to finish...


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

this comes down to your method, but my growth times are outrageous with proper organics. DWC takes time the first month there is like very little to no growth. those clones you saw in the pics in my veg room in the 1 gal bags on the floor where 1 week old and their old 4x4in pots were filled with roots. that huge cucumber plant is 3 weeks old


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> ED: Of course I could also get off my lazy ass and clean my garage so I can build a bigger grow room, or a grow cabinet that I have an idea for.


Wish I was working with such options there, man. You should do that shit. Got a garage but it's not secure or private enough. Really can't wait to own a place so I can build a serious hidden room.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

then you want a low nutrient content soil with a compost tea feeding once a week and a chemical nute feeding once a week(to regulate microbes and well feed your plants too) i dont use any plain water till last 2-3 weeks.


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

If anyone's looking for me, I drowned in nutrient talk a few posts back, lol


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Wish I was working with such options there, man. You should do that shit. Got a garage but it's not secure or private enough. Really can't wait to own a place so I can build a serious hidden room.


me too. me and my girl have been looking at places but haven't decided yet.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Wish I was working with such options there, man. You should do that shit. Got a garage but it's not secure or private enough. Really can't wait to own a place so I can build a serious hidden room.



I want to just convert my fiance's sewing room, but A my fiance would kill me. B my fiance would kill me, and C My fiance would kill me. 

The garage would be great and if I do the closet idea it would be very stealth even. I have a feeling it is what I will ultimately do, but going to perfect what system I want to use ect. in this little room before I scale up any.

Did I mention, my fiance would kill me?


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> then you want a low nutrient content soil with a compost tea feeding once a week and a chemical nute feeding once a week(to regulate microbes and well feed your plants too) i dont use any plain water till last 2-3 weeks.


*sputters to the surface* sounds reasonable... *resubmerges into the depths*

I am going to get some sleep guys, I will think on all this info you have filled my head with and try to figure out what i want to do, lol


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## falcon223 (Apr 8, 2012)

Polyar, what fungus are you using?? And where do you get it ??
I mix FFOF with Pro mix BX, earthworm castings, lime, and FF soil amendment, and a little bat guano. 
I will be using earth juice, and bat guano tea. And Alaska fish emulsion.
Hyroot that sounds real good, but I am to laze to get that put to gather. Still may try it though.


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## AltarNation (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> me too. me and my girl have been looking at places but haven't decided yet.


We are getting there ourselves... not quite ready to look seriously yet, but probably within the next year we will start arranging things financially.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Polyar, what fungus are you using?? And where do you get it ??
> I mix FFOF with Pro mix BX, earthworm castings, lime, and FF soil amendment, and a little bat guano.
> I will be using earth juice, and bat guano tea. And Alaska fish emulsion.
> Hyroot that sounds real good, but I am to laze to get that put to gather. Still may try it though.



i use great white, but i have had it for awhile and i got it b4 they doubled the price, so i wont be buying it again unfortunatly, but it is some GOOD shit. i gonna make some substrate jar and inoculate them and use the spawn soon i might actually make a thread about how to preserve and control your microbes.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> We are getting there ourselves... not quite ready to look seriously yet, but probably within the next year we will start arranging things financially.


same here were almost there, just looking right now, but our funds are coming along nicely here recently


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## kpmarine (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> this comes down to your method, but my growth times are outrageous with proper organics. DWC takes time the first month there is like very little to no growth. those clones you saw in the pics in my veg room in the 1 gal bags on the floor where 1 week old and their old 4x4in pots were filled with roots. that huge cucumber plant is 3 weeks old


What kind of dwc did you use? I get an average of an inch a day. Maybe 3 days of lag while it roots out and adjusts.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

some homemade shit. veg in a tupperware for 4 weeks i thing it was like a quart, by the time i tranfered it to a 5 gal with its own 18w air pump and single stone that covered the entire bottom, the root would be tangling with the other plant in the sytem (could fit 4 2in net cups in both my systems) the i would flower got some good results too i just felt it was 2-3 weeks slower, but it was a bigger yield, its kinda of a trade of IMO. yeild or speed. but in all honesty soil or DWC a beginner is gonna get slow times and smaller yields no matter what practice makes perfect, i definitely believe someone out there can grow DWC as fast as i can grow soil, but he is a master like i am soil. so it not really a matter of whos faster its a matter of who can yeild more for the same space/time and that will depend on the skill of the grower not the system.


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## kpmarine (Apr 8, 2012)

For anyone that wants to attempt overdriving a ballast. Try this site http://reocities.com/heartland/pines/7557/overdrv1.html it breaks down how to do it with rapid start and instant start ballasts. Just used it to turn my two 2xT8's that were laying around into one overdriven 4' 2xT8 successfully.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

unless we start talking about aero then its, the system, building skills and growing skillz


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## kpmarine (Apr 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> some homemade shit. veg in a tupperware for 4 weeks i thing it was like a quart, by the time i tranfered it to a 5 gal with its own 18w air pump and single stone that covered the entire bottom, the root would be tangling with the other plant in the sytem (could fit 4 2in net cups in both my systems) the i would flower got some good results too i just felt it was 2-3 weeks slower, but it was a bigger yield, its kinda of a trade of IMO. yeild or speed. but in all honesty soil or DWC a beginner is gonna get slow times and smaller yields no matter what practice makes perfect, i definitely believe someone out there can grow DWC as fast as i can grow soil, but he is a master like i am soil. so it not really a matter of whos faster its a matter of who can yeild more for the same space/time and that will depend on the skill of the grower not the system.


This is true. "Pick one and get good at it." is what I'm shooting for. I grow upstairs in my house, so soil seemed to be a much less appealing option.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 8, 2012)

i picked soil originally cuz i got sucked up in the "ORGANIC" hype. well i did about a months research bought about 200$ worth of stuff made my perfect mixtures, but it still took me a year to really perfect my method and about several months more of research. 

the 3 most important things in 100% organics

big pots
Microbes
3-1 N to P nutrient ratio so you dont risk killing off all your microbes and at the max a 2-1 ratio in flower

otherwise you will have to supplement with chem nutes


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 9, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hahaha... and there we go in the opposite direction. So many options.  What kind of nutes do you use in a DWC setup? I am wondering if I can use the FoxFarm nutes I bought in DWC... I've noticed they have a "hydroponic" version of each of their liquids, not sure about the solids.
> 
> I'd like to try DWC eventually but I'm not set up for it yet... still, if I'm gonna drop a bunch of money on soil ingredients I could probably go buy some hydro supplies instead...
> 
> ...



Ive done soil in the past but had nothing but problems (mostly bugs... I microwaved an entire 5gal bucket worth of soil, in a casserole dish for 10min, one bowl at a time for about 8 hours in an attempt to sterilize my soil, but only succeeded in making my apt complex smell like hot shit) Then I switched to hydro and tried nutrient film, flood and drain, and hybrids of aero/dwc systems and ive fallen on a simple DWC bubblebucket... the only drawback I see is that its a bit more labor intensive as far as maintaining water levels when they can drink over a gallon a day towards the end. I think organics/soil is easier to set and forget for awhile, but has too many variables to go wrong, whereas DWC is easy to correct any deficiencies (never an issue) and I feel it grows them MUCH faster than soil, like a few inches a day quick and faster response to feedings (I feed once a week, refill water level, light feeding, refill water level, then dump/refill with fresh nutes, usually tending them every other day unless they're bigguns, then they need to be re-flled every day) I feed with GH Maxi-Grow/Bloom & koolbloom during last half of flower. I also use in small amounts... SilicaBlast, H2O2, B1, SuperThrive (in Veg only), GH PHdown (sparingly), Hygrozyme (if needed) and Molasses during the last 5 days of flush (I give pure water for the last 10-14days, w/molasses at the very end). I used to use GH Flora 3part liquids but they were too expensive, now its easy Maxi powder, 1-1.5tsp/gal, shaken not stirred  

My dwc buckets are admittedly abit more labor intensive, but I love spending time with my girls  I think a RDWC like UndercurrentDWC's set up (whereever he went off to...) would be easiest to maintain and perfect with a scrog and T5's but would be abit more $ to startup...

I decided to give SCROG a try so tomorrow Im getting stuff to make screens to fit over 3 of my DWC bubble trays, so Ill have 10 total fems under 3 seperate scrogs in my flower box withing the next few weeks  (my 4 BlueBerryGum and 6 FruityChronicJuice clones)


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## hyroot (Apr 9, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hyroot you're awesome for sharing that with us all. Do you bubble the teas? How long do they need to sit before use?


I bubble tap water for a day or 2 then add molasses. let it aerate for an hour. takes a little time for the molasses to neutralize any chlorine if left, chloromine, amonia, etc.... Then I add everything else. Brew for about 12 hours and good to go. Sometimes I add earth juice humic acid too. More enzymes, bacteria, and fungi.

Also I use roots organic original soil. Ive tried everything else, ffof, black gold, empire, happy frog, dr earth ( 2 types) and roots coco. Ffof clumps up to much and you have to add a bunch of perlite. Empire runs to hot. The others are just horrible.. The roots airates good. Plenty of chunky perlite in it. Don't have to add anything. Don't have to till it. It doesn't clump up at all, drains perfectly. The roots coco is good too for coco. If you like that sort of thing... Lol hehe


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## AltarNation (Apr 9, 2012)

Cool, I will look into Roots Organic next time I buy some soil. I hope my local hydro guy has it on hand. Thanks for that info Hyroot. I agree that FFOF clumps way too much. It can be really hard to get it to take the water at the surface if I am a day late on watering. I've learned to just leave the top of the soil loose and broken up a bit, so I'm always sticking my fingers in the top a little before I water. But I would love to try something that won't give me so much trouble for now. I think I have about 1.5 bags of FFOF left that I am gonna use up first. Maybe I'll pick up a bag of perlite to loosen it up and help with drainage in the mean time.

I will probably stick to what I'm doing for now, maybe try some compost teas to get used to DIYing my nutes... I want to try the earth juice lines anyway, so maybe I will work with hyroot's recipes.  I dunno, I still have a bit of time to figure it out. FoxFarm isn't doing bad for me now that I got the nutrient levels dialed in... but I am almost out of Big Bloom so I will probably start replacing the FF products with some Earth Juice products to transition and then maybe work the same juice into some compost teas or something.

and then when I can rearrange my setup, I will give DWC a try. I'd really like to get set up either in or adjacent to a bathroom, maybe in a finished basement room with a floor drain and water lines, haha. I am thinking I could build or convert part of a bigger laundry room. That would be awesome. But that is down the road when we relocate. Plan is to buy a house next, so... FINALLY I'll have the freedom to do exactly what I want to do.


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## AltarNation (Apr 9, 2012)

I got a couple of those test batch UVL 660nm's coming. A little pricey, ended up costing me about 30 each shipped. Oh well. I hope they work well.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 9, 2012)

i use roots too i recommend them too, earth juice makes some good stuff. as far as humic acid goes you can make your own high powered version. brew a tea with 100% peat moss and filter it


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## AltarNation (Apr 9, 2012)

Cool... thanks Poly, for all your info! You too Hyroot! And UC! You guys are all frickin' helpful!


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## hyroot (Apr 9, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I got a couple of those test batch UVL 660nm's coming. A little pricey, ended up costing me about 30 each shipped. Oh well. I hope they work well.


Thats cool. Did they say anything a bout an spd for those bulbs?


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## AltarNation (Apr 9, 2012)

Hyroot you got a pm comin


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## hyroot (Apr 9, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hyroot you got a pm comin


Altar you have a reply comin


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## falcon223 (Apr 9, 2012)

Polyar, is it really that easy to make humic acid??? Wow. I am learning a lot here. I am learning all about bulbs, soil, overdriving ballast,where to buy stuff, and what not to buy.


Thanks guys.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 9, 2012)

yes its that easy, just like a regular compost teas just fill a 2L 3/4 of the way to the top with peat moss add water sugar and microbes give its 2 weeks by that time all that should be left is the stuff that isnt plant matter (perlite rocks dirt whatever) you filter off. the alcohol produced will have evaporated during filtering and sterilization, and h2o2 will break down after a few days once you microwave or pressure cook to sterilize for storage. store in a GLASS jar as this stuff will be powerful.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 9, 2012)

another way is Leonardo ore powder. its a rock mined from ancient seabeds made of 85% humic material, just add to water and mix.(i use peat moss method as more fulvic acid is derived i use this for hormone treatments)


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## falcon223 (Apr 9, 2012)

You say give it 2 weeks, is that in a sealed container ?


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## hyroot (Apr 9, 2012)

Or worm castings or forest humus makes humic to when aerated. It takes a couple days. Id rather buy a bottle of the earth juice humic. $13 its 22% humic. More than all other brands. Its very concentrate. So its ready in the time my teas are done.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 9, 2012)

Just added Humic acid to my resevoir yesterday. (Black Diamond Leonardite). Horrible Horrible stuff. My nice clean rez looks like someone dumped a gallon of motor oil in it.

So sad. Im done with anything organic. Fuck that nonsense.


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## kpmarine (Apr 9, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Just added Humic acid to my resevoir yesterday. (Black Diamond Leonardite). Horrible Horrible stuff. My nice clean rez looks like someone dumped a gallon of motor oil in it.
> 
> So sad. Im done with anything organic. Fuck that nonsense.


It may look funky, but does it work?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 9, 2012)

humic acids in hydro nice lol.
in hydro you have to be really picky about what you put in the most water soluble formulas are what you are looking for, i personally like powdered nutrients for hydro than mixing and matching liquids.

(humic acids) yes they work for the given purpose of making cell walls permeable for uptake of nutrient hormones ect. but useful in proper application. i dont add any humic acids to my compost teas as plenty is created from the ingredients them selves during the process of forming the tea, the only additive i add that the tea will make for itself is a little bit of enzymes as this can reduce possible toxicity of tap water by catalyzing with the chemicals in it.

the only reason i use humic acids is for foliar feeding hormone treatments, but humic acid is good for those who do hydo or inorganic in soil to make up for the loss of microbes; as normally they would produce this amongst many other thing both good and bad for plant.


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## kpmarine (Apr 9, 2012)

Ah, cool. Might have to look into that for my next round of flowering plants.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 9, 2012)

some pics for ya.... this is a compost tea bag the splotches are fungus there is mere on the inside only throw the matieral out inside the bag after 5-6 teas(so i can use less inoculant) gotta love par light makes it GLOW



harvesting this in a few days...


the male hermie blowing his/her load, and how to grow a male lol par cfl jk


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## 48martin (Apr 9, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Well my FFOF have shown N deficiency around 6 weeks in the past... but I guess I might have jumped the gun and started adding nutes early since I was trying to follow their sched... I'm starting to see it now on my air pot babies, which are gonna be transplanted to bigger containers shortly so they should get some more food from that... what the heck am I doing wrong if there's supposed to be enough to go a whole run?


Usually happens around that time for me also if I don't do any soil flushes prior. (give or take a week) By adding some worm castings to the top soil in week 4-5 has helped me during that period. Its a decent soil for those who do not want to bother with the mess and headache of mixing there own. I also find it a little harsh on seedlings. I wish I had the space to make my own soil and tea's.
-48


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## polyarcturus (Apr 9, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> You say give it 2 weeks, is that in a sealed container ?


open, its a living breathing organisms in there


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## AltarNation (Apr 9, 2012)

48martin said:


> Usually happens around that time for me also if I don't do any soil flushes prior. (give or take a week) By adding some worm castings to the top soil in week 4-5 has helped me during that period. Its a decent soil for those who do not want to bother with the mess and headache of mixing there own. I also find it a little harsh on seedlings. I wish I had the space to make my own soil and tea's.
> -48


It is a little strong for seedlings, agreed. I wish I had something more benign on hand just to get things started. But my seedlings have been able to handle it so far. I do have some peat pellets, I guess I could start in those and then go to FFOF.

Worm castings top dressed at week 4-5 is a great idea, thanks. I will hopefully get my hands on some more supplies soon...


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## kpmarine (Apr 9, 2012)

I just saw someone state with great conviction that generic grow and bloom bulbs have more PAR than aquarium fluorescents. Is reading too hard for some people?


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## AltarNation (Apr 9, 2012)

I saw it KP... just smile and nod...smile and nod...


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## kpmarine (Apr 9, 2012)

So, I'm thinking trying out a SoG this next run. Anyone have experience with it in respect to a PAR setup? I have 9x5g buckets in a DIY ebb and flow system with the large baskets; the ones that are pretty much the same inside width as the buckets. So I don't really lose much grow area pushing them together vs. a similarly 3'x3' SoG table. It would be a roughly 3'x3' area, that I can easily expand with DWC buckets into a 3'x6' area if it pans out. I have a 7 foot light rail that I plan on installing soon to cover the grow area more evenly. Just wanted to get some thoughts on how many plants i can fit in the 3'x3' area, how tall you grew them, your lights, etc. I have a 4' 8 bulb bad boy for flower, so you have an idea what I'm working with light-wise.


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## kpmarine (Apr 9, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I saw it KP... just smile and nod...smile and nod...


Someone needs to invent an e-sparta kick, I would pay out of your orifice of choice for that.


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## hyroot (Apr 10, 2012)

Im considering getting a few of these

http://www.giesemann.de/63,2,,.html
View attachment 2115383


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 10, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Im considering getting a few of these
> 
> http://www.giesemann.de/63,2,,.html
> View attachment 2115383


I have two of em, I like em so far.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 10, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Im considering getting a few of these
> 
> http://www.giesemann.de/63,2,,.html
> View attachment 2115383


Are those the AquaFlora's? I was considering them... kinda pricey tho (over$20) might be a good compliment to the FloraSuns, or alternative to the RedSun as it's high in 630 (but still putting out a bit of green...)


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## hyroot (Apr 10, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Are those the AquaFlora's? I was considering them... kinda pricey tho (over$20) might be a good compliment to the FloraSuns, or alternative to the RedSun as it's high in 630 (but still putting out a bit of green...)


Its the midday not aqua flora. It has almost the same amount of green as zoo med flora sun but more 650 -660 red than flora sun. And the 630 spike too. Its $20 every where .

Its got some uv-a, b and some good IR too.


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## PetFlora (Apr 10, 2012)

If only it had like 25% less blue it would be an awesome flower bulb


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## MurshDawg (Apr 10, 2012)

I think my next PAR spread is going to be nothing but Wave-point. I found a local distributor! Plus I like what that new bulb they are putting out looks like in chart.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 10, 2012)

[video=youtube;lh99EIFVXnQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lh99EIFVXnQ[/video]


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 10, 2012)

Anyone have any suggestions as to a good height for a scrog screen??? I just made a pretty nice cage out of chicken wire with 2.5/4" squares, I made it for a 10" canopy and it seems like a good height, but Ive never scrogged before so I dont know what to expect when it starts to fill in... is 10" a good height???

This will attach to and sit on top of the lids to my bubble tubs, 3 or 4 plants per screen is the plan.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 10, 2012)

ive always tried to keep my screens around 6-8 in from the base you dont want colas stretching to the screen but rather have them grow above the screen then weave them back down into the screen. i have a crazy lst mother to show you guys. you guys are gonna love this...


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## ValleGrown (Apr 10, 2012)

Pics coming in a few. 

New bulb line up

650nm roseate
super actinic
440/640
650nm roseate
650nm roseate
440/640
super actinic
650nm roseate

I want some more red in there. Probably be replacing the supers with roseates. Or something similar


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## polyarcturus (Apr 10, 2012)

3ft to under 1. BONZAI!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ValleGrown (Apr 10, 2012)

Check it out everyone

ME LIKEY


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## polyarcturus (Apr 10, 2012)

looking good VG! nice and bushy, i love the reaction my leaves have had to the new lights they are so much thicker!


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## ValleGrown (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks man I just hope its enough red for flowering. I think it should be pretty even for flower and veg. But I will definately be making another order for more Roseates.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 10, 2012)

Here's what I did today, I took air tubing and cut slits down them to wrap around the wire for cushioning wherever contact will be made. I hope 3 plants isnt too much.

Here's the AutoHobbit before chopping, I chopped half and got .55oz dried, the 2nd half is drying now and I should get an oz... 1.5 oz in 80days... not bad! ...although Ill smoke it in under 2 weeks


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 10, 2012)

I also mounted my 2 FlameDefender Automatic Sprinklers... I wouldnt mind a few more.
<- inside the top of my Flowering box, dedicated just to that box (1000w of lighting)

<- outside that box, aimed to cover the Nursery and Veg box and the room in general

I also finally got my CO2 farm up and running


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 10, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> Thanks man I just hope its enough red for flowering. I think it should be pretty even for flower and veg. But I will definately be making another order for more Roseates.


I would swap the actinics out for CoralWaves during Flowering, so you still get that good PAR blue but also the bonus IR to boost flowering  otherwise I think It'd work well, try the florasuns to tho, maybe instead of more Roseates. Next to each other, the FS's look really pink/red and the Roseate's look flat white, they'd be good to fill in any gaps in the red band


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## ValleGrown (Apr 10, 2012)

I think I will! That I thank you for


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 10, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I also mounted my 2 FlameDefender Automatic Sprinklers... I wouldnt mind a few more.
> View attachment 2116728<- inside the top of my Flowering box, dedicated just to that box (1000w of lighting)
> 
> View attachment 2116731View attachment 2116734<- outside that box, aimed to cover the Nursery and Veg box and the room in general
> ...


tell me about the Co2 setup


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 11, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I also mounted my 2 FlameDefender Automatic Sprinklers... I wouldnt mind a few more.
> View attachment 2116728<- inside the top of my Flowering box, dedicated just to that box (1000w of lighting)
> 
> View attachment 2116731View attachment 2116734<- outside that box, aimed to cover the Nursery and Veg box and the room in general
> ...


 I like that CO2 generator, what is the second bucket for though, I havent seen them built quite like that


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

hehe... co2.. buy a tank and regulator well worth the investment.....too bad none of you are near i have an extra of both


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 11, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> hehe... co2.. buy a tank and regulator well worth the investment.....too bad none of you are near i have an extra of both


I wish I could buy one but I dont even have the cash atm to buy lights for a mother/veg closet at the moment. Hoping I find some before my seeds get to big to where I need it fast.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

2 words, high bay. 50$ or less. great temporary lighting


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

Finally got everything the way I want it as far as lighting goes.

UVLSuperActinic/FijiPurple/RedSun/660nm/RedSun/RedSun/FijiPurple/UVL 454

The 660 appears to be a very deep magenta color, some cool pink hue to it.

This is day 8 of flower. Ive been using FF feeding schedule for the liquid nutes, I have an order of all 3 solubles supposed to be here friday. Research shows that side by side comparison of with and without solubles there is a huge benefit with the addition of solubles.

I have a couple of bushes hiding around my grow area that were LST'd with 10 and 12 nodes respectively. Im going to be moving after this grow and will be within the next 3 months. I needed to have them harvest before the move date, so I put them in flower early. I really, really wish I had more time to veg them out another 1.5-2ft before switching but its cool.

I finally decided on seeds for my third round: RockLock.


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## falcon223 (Apr 11, 2012)

Infinit, the leaves are Reilly reaching up. that look so cool.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 11, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> I like that CO2 generator, what is the second bucket for though, I havent seen them built quite like that


 Well its my first attempt at CO2 but after reading quite abit and making designs, I figured this would suffice. The right jug has my sugar/yeast mixture, and in an effort to help the yeast multiply and hopefully last longer I added ... an air rock to add O2 and circulation, a multi-vitamin, molasses and abit of maxi-grow. Pressure builds from the CO2 and the air rock, which is then transfered thru the blue tube to the 2nd (left) jug where a constant bubble stream is able to be monitored. I realize the pressure added thru the air stone will create alot of the pressure inside the 2nd jug but I can turn the pump off and still get a steady bubbling. The 2nd jug is basically an air lock that allows you to monitor the output via the bubble stream. The lid on the left jug has holes to allow the pressure to release after bubbling thru the clean water. I was hoping it would remove some smell... not very effective at that, still smells like my alcoholic uncle


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 11, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Well its my first attempt at CO2 but after reading quite abit and making designs, I figured this would suffice. The right jug has my sugar/yeast mixture, and in an effort to help the yeast multiply and hopefully last longer I added ... an air rock to add O2 and circulation, a multi-vitamin, molasses and abit of maxi-grow. Pressure builds from the CO2 and the air rock, which is then transfered thru the blue tube to the 2nd (left) jug where a constant bubble stream is able to be monitored. I realize the pressure added thru the air stone will create alot of the pressure inside the 2nd jug but I can turn the pump off and still get a steady bubbling. The 2nd jug is basically an air lock that allows you to monitor the output via the bubble stream. The lid on the left jug has holes to allow the pressure to release after bubbling thru the clean water. I was hoping it would remove some smell... not very effective at that, still smells like my alcoholic uncle



I am going to have to try something like that. I will prolly have to do it with two liters due to space restrictions, but I really like the second bottle/bubbler. I allways hate with my two liters that I dont know at all how much they are producing. +1 rep when I can hit you again brother.


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## FLOWERMASTER (Apr 11, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> ever heard of google?


fucking hilarious


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

UCC, its an interesting method for sure. The only problem is you really dont know how much CO2 its producing. Also, since CO2 is heavier than air, the CO2 you are producing is most likely only going to benefit the plants that are immediately next to that generator. The only way you are REALLY going to know how much CO2 is in your room is to use a tank and regulator, but its expensive, bulky, and impacts the environment from production.

Im going with an organic solution; small, vented mycelial blocks in a bag. Ive grown mushrooms before, and by experience I know mycelium produces quite a bit of CO2. Ive found these blocks on amazon at better prices before than what they are now, but they really do work. My first grow utilizing these had a 7 ft tall Himilayan Gold, with arms as long as 3 feet... pretty bad ass. The bag was sitting above/next to this plant its entire life.

The two that I know of are Boost Buddy and ExHale. Ive used both and they work as well as the other although Boost Buddy talks itself up in its product description but it is the same thing as ExHale. The only difference being that the mycelium is probably a different strain but that has virtually no affect as to how much CO2 is produced. Each bag is rated to make differences of rooms up to 4'x4' with no specific height. Since my tent is 4'x8'x6.5' and actively ventilated, I have 4 of these bags dangling from the support bars. It works REALLY well, and costs the same if not less over a 4 month period as using a CO2 tank with regulator without having to worry about dragging the tank out to resupply it. No fuss, no muss.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Infinit, the leaves are Reilly reaching up. that look so cool.


I thought so too. The plants in the background are being blown on by a fan off to the left in that pic, but the plant in the foreground had no airflow on it at all. Ive got a set of 6" clip-on fans from Air-King coming in which Im going to clip to my light fixture. I spent an hour the other day making sure all of my lamps labels are on the side where the fan will be. Then Im gonna drop the light closer to the plants and observe.


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## kpmarine (Apr 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> UCC, its an interesting method for sure. The only problem is you really dont know how much CO2 its producing. Also, since CO2 is heavier than air, the CO2 you are producing is most likely only going to benefit the plants that are immediately next to that generator. The only way you are REALLY going to know how much CO2 is in your room is to use a tank and regulator, but its expensive, bulky, and impacts the environment from production.
> 
> Im going with an organic solution; small, vented mycelial blocks in a bag. Ive grown mushrooms before, and by experience I know mycelium produces quite a bit of CO2. Ive found these blocks on amazon at better prices before than what they are now, but they really do work. My first grow utilizing these had a 7 ft tall Himilayan Gold, with arms as long as 3 feet... pretty bad ass. The bag was sitting above/next to this plant its entire life.
> 
> The two that I know of are Boost Buddy and ExHale. Ive used both and they work as well as the other although Boost Buddy talks itself up in its product description but it is the same thing as ExHale. The only difference being that the mycelium is probably a different strain but that has virtually no affect as to how much CO2 is produced. Each bag is rated to make differences of rooms up to 4'x4' with no specific height. Since my tent is 4'x8'x6.5' and actively ventilated, I have 4 of these bags dangling from the support bars. It works REALLY well, and costs the same if not less over a 4 month period as using a CO2 tank with regulator without having to worry about dragging the tank out to resupply it. No fuss, no muss.


It takes a bit of math, but you can get a good idea of how much CO2 is being made. You just need to know the temp, amount of yeast, and amount of sugar. As far as distribution, a series of air pump tubing ran to each plant perhaps? As long as every tube is the same length, you get even distribution in theory.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> It takes a bit of math, but you can get a good idea of how much CO2 is being made. You just need to know the temp, amount of yeast, and amount of sugar. As far as distribution, a series of air pump tubing ran to each plant perhaps? As long as every tube is the same length, you get even distribution in theory.


Sounds like a lot of work and cost ineffective along with a lot of variables. Im not knocking the guy at all; it is a really clever way to produce CO2. I would just prefer something that is effective, consistent, easy to use, easy to replace, cheap, and doesnt take up a lot of space. This really fits the bill all across the board.

Oh yeah, and it doesnt smell at all..


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

just buy the damn tanks will you guy? these diy co2 aren't worth it if you want to know the truth, yeah a boost but don't get your hopes up of doubling your yield or cutting growth time in half. just try to cycle the air as fast as possible i remember reading somewhere that if you could cycle the air in a room 10x a min it would be equivalent to running a co2 tank at 1500 ppm


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## kpmarine (Apr 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Sounds like a lot of work and cost ineffective along with a lot of variables. Im not knocking the guy at all; it is a really clever way to produce CO2. I would just prefer something that is effective, consistent, easy to use, easy to replace, cheap, and doesnt take up a lot of space. This really fits the bill all across the board.
> 
> Oh yeah, and it doesnt smell at all..


I already ferment beer in my flower room, so smell wouldn't be an issue for me. I'm a fan of all things DIY though. I get alot of free time, so new mays to MacGyver things are always fun. Most of it's downside is the lack of regulation, followed by he smell.

EDIT: On the plus side, UCC's CO2 generator can't get stuck on and asphyxiate you in your sleep.


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## Beagle (Apr 11, 2012)

I bought a used 50lb co2 tank full for 126$ and it lasted 2 cycles. Was only $23 to refill.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I already ferment beer in my flower room, so smell wouldn't be an issue for me. I'm a fan of all things DIY though. I get alot of free time, so new mays to MacGyver things are always fun. Most of it's downside is the lack of regulation, followed by he smell.
> 
> EDIT: On the plus side, UCC's CO2 generator can't get stuck on and asphyxiate you in your sleep.


Thats pretty slick, you ever do any mead? I swear its almost impossible to find any mead in my region and if you do, even harder for it to taste good.

Im all about DIY too but everyone has more important factors for themselves I suppose. With my grow tent in my bedroom (severe space limitations) having a CO2 tank in here doesnt seem like a good idea lol. I also dont have the time to rig stuff like that up. I work two full time jobs to pay my bills and invest in additional equipment and have a girlfriend who lives separately from me. In the future when I expand with more equipment, I will need consistent results with materials that are readily available and dont require much, if any modification.

Beagle, 50lbs of CO2 lasted 2 grows from start to finish? I wonder about your setup


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## kpmarine (Apr 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Thats pretty slick, you ever do any mead? I swear its almost impossible to find any mead in my region and if you do, even harder for it to taste good.
> 
> Im all about DIY too but everyone has more important factors for themselves I suppose. With my grow tent in my bedroom (severe space limitations) having a CO2 tank in here doesnt seem like a good idea lol. I also dont have the time to rig stuff like that up. In the future when I expand with more equipment, I will need consistent results with materials that are readily available and dont require much, if any modification.
> 
> Beagle, 50lbs of CO2 lasted 2 grows from start to finish? I wonder about your setup


Nah alot of Irish stout and home-made blue moon. I still have yet to try mead, it's up there on my list of things to try eventually.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

Heh, stout is too dark for me. Lager is about as dark as I like to go. Ales like blue moon are quite satisfying.. but theres nothing like a fresh mead made with both honey and fruit other than grapes and apples. I had a kiwi-raspberry mead once and I was disappointed at once because I knew I would never taste anything quite as good as that ever again.. and so far I was right 

It might take you quite a few brews to get what you are really looking for, but I assure you that you will be more than pleased with the pay off.


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## PetFlora (Apr 11, 2012)

Guys please PM each other for off topic stuff


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## falcon223 (Apr 11, 2012)

Pm s take to long . And I can see what you guys are up to. It is all on topic anyway, it is all about growing. right????


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## kpmarine (Apr 11, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Pm s take to long . And I can see what you guys are up to. It is all on topic anyway, it is all about growing. right????


I think it's mostly in reference to the homebrew discussion.


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## AltarNation (Apr 11, 2012)

Not to mention the PM limits are absurdly low on this site. Used to frequent the shroomery and you can pretty much message til the cows come home without ever deleting anything. Oh well. Just not used to limits on things like that.

Anyway... good news friends, my 660 bulbs came in today. I haven't opened or installed 'em yet, but i should have 'em in sometime tomorrow perhaps. I think I am going to go ahead and bump my second set of ladies to 12/12 now without all the bulbs in play... get 'em a little headstart before i harvest...


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## falcon223 (Apr 11, 2012)

Camt wait to see thous bulbs. Hope thay are red, you know red.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Not to mention the PM limits are absurdly low on this site. Used to frequent the shroomery and you can pretty much message til the cows come home without ever deleting anything. Oh well. Just not used to limits on things like that.
> 
> Anyway... good news friends, my 660 bulbs came in today. I haven't opened or installed 'em yet, but i should have 'em in sometime tomorrow perhaps. I think I am going to go ahead and bump my second set of ladies to 12/12 now without all the bulbs in play... get 'em a little headstart before i harvest...


Bandwidth is a premium these days, and I dont think rollitup is a revenue generator so it comes from out of pocket cost... Im assuming.

I think youll like the 660's as much as I do, I just wish I had more than one. It was free for me though, so no complaints here.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 11, 2012)

Don't even need that. I just pump in fresh air 15 min 4x a day with a 600cfm fan and it works awesome. Then I have a free standing AC in each room. I do spray Co2 foliar 2-3x week. That's good though because it keeps me lookin at my plants


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> just buy the damn tanks will you guy? these diy co2 aren't worth it if you want to know the truth, yeah a boost but don't get your hopes up of doubling your yield or cutting growth time in half. just try to cycle the air as fast as possible i remember reading somewhere that if you could cycle the air in a room 10x a min it would be equivalent to running a co2 tank at 1500 ppm


I will never use CO2 tanks myself for multiple reasons. If anything, I would create my own mycelial blocks with a vented hole for respiration but thats because Im familiar with how to do it. Eventually Id like to grow gourmet mushrooms like portabello, shiitake, morel.. but even the mushrooms that substrate produces would be worth more than a $40 brick from ExHale or BoostBuddy.

Its just not going to benefit you the same way supplemental CO2 does. Due to either heat or humidity or both caused by any lighting system, adequate ventilation is almost required. There is about 300ppm CO2 in the air, and plants peak at growth at ppm levels of ~1200-1300. AC and dehumid would work if you can rig a system up for it, but it would cost more in the long run for utility cost and equipment.

Flushing the air out 1x-2x per minute is all you need for your CO2 levels to remain at ambient atmosphere levels. Adjust for humidity, temperature, and CO2 supplementation as needed.

Some folks use carbon filters for stealth grows and this requires constant ventilation. Youll be losing some CO2 in the process, but in my case this isnt a problem because my 'tank' never turns off and doesnt run out of CO2 til its obviously expired.


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## cjd (Apr 11, 2012)

Left to right. 660 420, 633, Actinic White, 660, 460, 420, 660 Camera phone so it's a horrible picture. I have them over two Big Boy Tomato plants. After the first run of 6 on 6 off there was a a obvious difference in color and plant height. They were both 12" to the leaf tip 10" wide to the leaf tip with a 1/4" stem thickness. the next morning they were both 14" tall same width and stem. I had to move the light so they sat in front of a window for a little over 24 hr. with no loss in height or color. I did have some slight burning but day 2 was 18 on and 6 off at 18". I also intentionally did not harden them in anyway before putting them under the light just to see what would happen in a worse case situation. Greenhouse to under the light. The 660's are in production and should be avail. in 6 weeks. I can't release the graph until I get the OK but it is exactly as Jeff @ UVL described it. The names are still up in the air but it will be simple and to the point just like the concept. There most likely will be a graph of what the light will produce with whatever the final combo of tubes are. It may be what I am running but nothing is final.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

Looks nice.. that is a really deep purple on that 420. Which lamp is that?

Oh, UVL is already in production of the 660s? There is also a spectral graph for it?

Perhaps one or both of us are being misled.



> X,
> 
> We haven't promoted the 660nm lamp or spec graph yet until we finalize the field testing and put them into production....sorta don't want to put the cart before the horse theory.
> 
> ...


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> I will never use CO2 tanks myself for multiple reasons. If anything, I would create my own mycelial blocks with a vented hole for respiration but thats because Im familiar with how to do it. Eventually Id like to grow gourmet mushrooms like portabello, shiitake, morel.. but even the mushrooms that substrate produces would be worth more than a $40 brick from ExHale or BoostBuddy.
> 
> Its just not going to benefit you the same way supplemental CO2 does. Due to either heat or humidity or both caused by any lighting system, adequate ventilation is almost required. There is about 300ppm CO2 in the air, and plants peak at growth at ppm levels of ~1200-1300. AC and dehumid would work if you can rig a system up for it, but it would cost more in the long run for utility cost and equipment.
> 
> ...


no ac, yes a dehu but thats because of my grows location in a basement. maintenance, none. set timer and go! mines not completely sealed(i dont believe in thaT) but 1500 ppm is what allows me to grow so fast should i take a pic of veg today so you can compare to the pics a weeks ago? my growth is amazing, now im not knocking your method, its a good method but not accurate enough for me.


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## cjd (Apr 11, 2012)

He means full production. The graph exists but is not for distribution I am looking at it right now. It's in the rough format still. I am a dealer for them now so I have to follow certain rules with disclosure.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

how the fuck would they know if you posted im calling bullshit


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## cjd (Apr 11, 2012)

You can call anything you want it really doesn't matter to me. That's the picture of the light running so it's all you get and the rest of the forum will have to suffer I don't have to keep anyone informed here. Besides for all I know your bullshit. You are growing something that IS federal illegal. So who is the bandit here?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

wtfe dude. i would never jump up to use GROWING is illegal bullshit to try and prove your point i am well aware of this fact and here your the bandit. so stop.


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## kpmarine (Apr 11, 2012)

He's not selling anything at this very moment. Please tone down accusations of someone robbing you until they actually try to take money. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should. If he can't post the SPD, then wait until UVL releases it. Should be out in 6 weeks apparently. If that doesn't materialize, then calling CJD a liar would be fair. It's a bit too soon to pass judgment.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

he might not be selling but dont fluant you have the graph in my face unless you came here to secretley share i would rather wait having thought no one but the company has seen the charts if you got the charts who else has them? and what to stop them from posting it early elsewhere? all im saying i bet the chart is at the company on the hardrive till it at full production


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## Kite High (Apr 11, 2012)

have the very far read and far blue/ultraviolets by wave arrive as of yet? Thanks in advance


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## cjd (Apr 11, 2012)

It the reality of the situation son. You can twist it anyway you need to get by. Like I said in my previous reply what you think doesn't matter to me. If you had half a clue you would have looked back about a week ago and had seen that what I said are facts regarding the bulbs. So before you get all puffy and swollen don't ever call anyone out before you do at least a little research. Then you don't have to worry about looking foolish. So Mr. X grow up. Hum, my story's match up with confirmation of posts here I have the lights and the charts that were also confirmed to exist. But you like to shoot from the hip and act surprised when you get it back. That's sad. Don't ever contact me or if I ever post here again reply to ANYTHING I write!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

my name is polyarcturus and i do as please child, i have no ill will against you, but your position is strained. please feel free to share. im not surprised by your reaction took you long enough to think of a reply. 

and if your concerned about what i say there is an ignore option in "MyRollitup"


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## cjd (Apr 11, 2012)

*"i do as please child" *Says the little boy. Now you are actually amusing me. You can try your little high school game from your mothers basement but remember this. I have the bulbs and did it with 1 phone call and at the time 15 posts on this site.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> no ac, yes a dehu but thats because of my grows location in a basement. maintenance, none. set timer and go! mines not completely sealed(i dont believe in thaT) but 1500 ppm is what allows me to grow so fast should i take a pic of veg today so you can compare to the pics a weeks ago? my growth is amazing, now im not knocking your method, its a good method but not accurate enough for me.


Im not lucky enough to have my grow in a basement (yet) so I still have to be mindful of temperature. 1500 ppm exceeds the peak point for growth in plants, see below. There is never just one factor that will allow for a stupendous growth. Everything plays together with plants like music does to a dance. Percussion, strings, vocals (if any), brass, etc.

It may not be exceedingly accurate like a regulated CO2 tank, but my experience in the world of mycelium allows me to give good approximations while compensating for air thats being vented out of the room. Also, I dont have to worry about refills and dragging a big bulky tank out of my room, or my carbon footprint on the environment for the production of the CO2.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

CJD,

I reread his email to me and it says 'has not promoted' the lamp or graph. He didnt say it doesnt exist, although its disappointing that they wouldnt create a 'hype' before releasing it to the public if you will. UVL is a private company, and I respect their wishes as any other businessman would. Poly on the other hand does not, thats his perogitive and problem. They will both be available soon enough it appears, and will be on the market long before I have the need for additional lamps anyways.

Still, can you give me the lamp name of the (420) deep purple you have?

@Poly,

Think about video game companies. They ship to retailers like gamestop, walmart, target, etc., long before the release date so that when the date hits across the entire globe theres enough for everyone (hopefully). Employees and the Employers cant take any of these games until the release date at risk of being fired, sued, or both.


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## hyroot (Apr 11, 2012)

If you want to.see the spectrum chart for uvl 660. Then email uvl. I did and I hve seen the chart. But I cant release it either. I will tell you it does not look very good. Im hoping they will tweek it some more. as of now I would not buy it. After they make some changes, maybe. For the same money you can order the gro lux from the U.K.. That one is much better. 

I have sent more emails to coralife, current usa/ truelumen, and wave point. So I will let you all know when I hear back.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

hyroot said:


> If you want to.see the spectrum chart for uvl 660. Then email uvl. I did and I hve seen the chart. But I cant release it either. I will tell you it does not look very good. Im hoping they will tweek it some more. as of now I would not buy it. After they make some changes, maybe. For the same money you can order the gro lux from the U.K.. That one is much better.
> 
> I have sent more emails to coralife, current usa/ truelumen, and wave point. So I will let you all know when I hear back.


Just looked at the SPD for the Gro-lux. Thats actually a REALLY good full spectrum lamp. strong spikes just after 400, again ~430, quick strong spike at 550, and really strong output from 600-670. Wow.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

you do have a good point there with the video games bought modern warfare 3 weeks b4 it came out from a wallys world.....

@cjd well see how useful you prove to be. you can keep attacking me if you wish but this makes you look bad quips at my grammar and where i grow are not amusing. you are being childish add some more useful info, show off some pics off your beuties corals or otherwise, promote education and knowledge around here share some of your experiments its fine if you keep the chart from the above view point, but your not contributing anything but a bulb without any proof. if you have them in action i would be more inclined to believe you. you think i grow a mommys look a few pages back mommy wouldnt be happy if she stumblled in on that.....


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

anyways back to co2 1500 is optimum since i have leaks and vent 6 times a day anything over a 5x5 a tank become useless now you need a propane gen. but anyways back to the tank in my 5x5x7 tent that contains everything i enrich 6x a day a 20lb tank lasts 3-4 months. it super safe and can be out the way because you can tube the gas from the tank. trust me a 50$ tank on CL and a 100$ regulator and a 20$ refill is worth it. trust it pays for itself in one grow. super cucumbers dont happen everday im gonna post a pic hes going CRAZY since the temps have been warming up round here. thats why i origionally switched to T5 was in prep for the summer so my temps have been pretty low around 70-80. i usually run around 80-90. my nights are always 65 and i don't vent because my sleeping mothers produce co2 for my plants under 24/0 veg lights.

i just scrub the air with on filter then vent thru another filter out the tent for 15 min before every time i add co2 and 1hour b4 flower lights come on and 1 hour after they go off (save on elec and properly uses fresh air a KEY times)


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

Poly,

Hes not supposed to share it. Im sure some people have seen it, Ive been working with Jeff @ UVL for over 2 months on a back order. Dealers are supplied the information for when its released to the public. Its not like hes gloating about it. Patience is key.

As for CO2, can you send me pics of your set up? Some of what youre saying doesnt quite make sense to me 



@CJD,

I could give two fucks what the federal government thinks or laws it has in effect. Just because something is illegal doesnt make it right. According to the constitution, the states should have 98% of the power that the federal government now controls. Some legislation later which was fabricated by greedy lobbyists and strong armed into law changed this. Look up how big oil suppressed marihuana and the hemp plant in general.

@Both of you: just drop it and move on with the thread. Going back and forth like that isnt productive and isnt going to help people reading into the 3k+ replies on this thread already.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

look back a page or 2 you can see my whole setup the co2 tank is mixed in with the veg plants under T5

probably 5-8 pages back


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

I found what appears to be a large cylindrical object wrapped in something. Doesnt show much for the set up. I get my big shipment in Thursday (Today if you are on EST like me) so once I have everything set up Ill forward you a pic.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

large cylindrical object wrapped? huh? i mean, what?


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## Alex281 (Apr 11, 2012)

What bulbs would you guys recommend for a 4' 6 bulb only for flowering? also, how much more efficient are we talking with these bulbs over standard 3000k/6500k which i am currently using! (3000/6500/3000/3000/6500/3000)


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

i just remembered the pics are in my journal

@alex par lighting produces between 10-40% more useable light than standard florescents and are built to a higher standard too.

me if i was flowering with six bulbs my choices would be x2 1000k aquasun uvl, x2 coralife color max, x1 wave point coralwave, x1 zoomed reptisun 10.0


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

the 10000k could be interchanged with 6500k or 6700k to make it a little cheaper on the pocket

this is the order i would put them in to

10000k-colormax-reptisun-coralwave-colormax-10000k


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 11, 2012)

Holy Shit! an argument here that I wasnt involved in! damn where was I?


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Holy Shit! an argument here that I wasnt involved in! damn where was I?


Smokin herb somewhere? xD


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 11, 2012)

Alex...

2-3 FloraSuns, 2 RedSuns, 1-2 CoralWaves... flowering perfection... IR to boost flowering, Very Little Green, Good Blue, Lots of Reds... whatmorecanIsay?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

hes the man(undercover cop that is), i was just covering while the teacher was gone.

his combo is better he has exp @ alex


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## Alex281 (Apr 11, 2012)

hahahahahaahhaha!! +rep to both of you!!! thank you so much!


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## kpmarine (Apr 11, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Holy Shit! an argument here that I wasnt involved in! damn where was I?


 Judging by your name; racially profiling a minority somewhere?


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 11, 2012)

Sooo happy, was able to replace my 420 arc with a colormaxx today. Just wanted that little bit more red in my setup. Wish it were day 65 instead of day 11 lol.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Judging by your name; racially profiling a minority somewhere?



this made me laugh hard! his name is undercoverCROP


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## kpmarine (Apr 11, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> this made me laugh hard! his name is undercoverCROP


 I know it's supposed to read that way. Due to that (rather hilarious given the forum it occurred on) typo of his, I always think of cop jokes when he posts.


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## infinitalus (Apr 11, 2012)

My setup is UVL 454nm / Korallen-Zucht Fiji Purple / UVL Red Sun / Red Sun / UVL 660nm Engineering Sample / Red Sun / Fiji Purple / UVL Super Actinic ... thats for flowering.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 11, 2012)

i know i completely distrusted him at first, super jaded. i was like if i was cop why not just say it everyone's gonna think im joking, when im not. LOLOL!


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## AltarNation (Apr 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I know it's supposed to read that way. Due to that (rather hilarious given the forum it occurred on) typo of his, I always think of cop jokes when he posts.


Hahaha. I must have missed the post where he explained his name. I honestly assumed it was just a tongue in cheek joke...

Guys, so... speculation time... I've got my new 660's, two of them. I'm thinking, drop them in in place of the two fiji purps in my flower chamber for now, and see what happens.

I was considering putting them in my 4-bulb in the veg chamber and popping them to 12/12 early... but i'm not sure what other two bulbs I would put in with them. I could put one 660 in each fixture, and one of the fijis in each fixture. Still leaves two slots in my 4-bulb un-defined... either could use some of the veg bulbs (current line up for veg is 454, Super Actinic, 75/25, and another 454) or I could pop a couple generic blooms in or something.

I'm leaning towards just putting them both in the flower chamber and leaving the veg chamber as is for now... but the plan was to side-hang that 4-bulb in the flower chamber for the next round of flowering anyway, (for a total of 14 bulbs) so I'm gonna have to figure this out sooner or later. Probably going to order a couple more of something, just not sure what yet.

My whole list of availables is:

2 Red Suns
2 660 nm's
4 Flora Suns
2 Fiji Purps
2 Coral Waves

Then I've got two empty slots, or i can put in some of the blue bulbs mentioned above from the veg chamber... but would need to drop something new in there to replace, though I could just use some grow bulbs as I have a couple (a lot) of extras.

I'm thinking for flowering I'd like to have 1 660 and 1 red sun in each fixture to spread it around... shit, I might just order some more red suns, because I feel like that's not going to be enough once I get the 14-bulbs going at once...


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Judging by your name; racially profiling a minority somewhere?



I was getting blunted with the cops in Sanford FL, we were at a kegger the night Treyvon was shot, thats why they didnt respond... (sry if thats in poor taste, but those police dun fuuuuckked up!)


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 12, 2012)

Just finished putting the Hobbit into mason jars after drying... 1.3oz total, light and airy but sticky as a mutherfucker, holy hell its like touching flypaper!

I love going through my flowering box and doing a little scratch and sniff, lightly drag a clean finger over a sugarleaf towards a top cola and sniff it... 
My week3 BlueBerryGum is way more sugary and frosty than the others, and smells very clean, kinda spicy and piney
My week6 BlewCheez (unk. Sativa) isnt that frosty, but is developing these little fist like colas that are getting rounder by the day, and is now developing a nice purple color in the center of all the new calyxes, like a vibrant bright purple!
My week4 FruityChronicJuice got fimmed at about 3ft and is leveled out now, but is developing several colas that will fill in to be about forearm size! plus several clusters that are already getting bulky, sniff test... sweet lemons! love it.

Pics soon, Im getting about 12 2ft bulbs delivered tomorrow to complete my current setup, then pics 


[video=youtube_share;FKb3qRljGBc]http://youtu.be/FKb3qRljGBc[/video]

Unit 420's comin fuckers! ya'll better run and hide!


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## falcon223 (Apr 12, 2012)

What the hell was that???


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## infinitalus (Apr 12, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> What the hell was that???


Looks like a bunch of college kids smoking under a parachute while a single police officer is out to get them.


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## PetFlora (Apr 12, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Just looked at the SPD for the Gro-lux. Thats actually a REALLY good full spectrum lamp. strong spikes just after 400, again ~430, quick strong spike at 550, and really strong output from 600-670. Wow.


Yes there are really nice bulbs out there with a strong red, BUT, as I understand it from Jeff @ UVL the 660 is a monochrome. That can be very useful to those of us who want to mix/match to achieve best blend for our plants


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 12, 2012)

Day 30

https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-fluorescent-lighting/518706-my-t5-lucas-formula-grow-3.html#post7279501


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## polyarcturus (Apr 12, 2012)

WW 2 more weeks hoping to pull 2oz with this guy!

the fastest growing plant! doubled its size since the last pics! one week under t5 and co2! growth is amazing canatwait for the plant growth bulbs from wave point!

my blue cheese yeild from 2 plants in a gal pots around 2oz dry harvested 2 days ago,this remind me i got to show pics of my purple b4 it gets harvested!

View attachment 2118864View attachment 2118866DIY tissue culturing, and shroom once i order some more spore, had some old ones i guess they where too old


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## AltarNation (Apr 12, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Yes there are really nice bulbs out there with a strong red, BUT, as I understand it from Jeff @ UVL the 660 is a monochrome. That can be very useful to those of us who want to mix/match to achieve best blend for our plants


indeed, that is why I went after them. Having seen the chart, (shhh, I'm not supposed to share it either) I can say that it is still based on a tri-band base and that while it does appear to be very red in the pictures provided above, it definitely has larger spikes in blue and green than the red sun. [email protected] said this was a necessity to achieve the strong output on the 660 range. I don't know the details on that. Also, the 660 spike is pretty big, basically has a "half strength" mini spike at 630, then dips a tiny bit, then comes back up to about double that height for 660... tapers back down around 670.


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## ValleGrown (Apr 12, 2012)

What was the cost of these 660s??


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 12, 2012)

So the 660s spd looks kinda like a florasun's then, maybe a bit more intense (more phosphors) in the 660 zone, but otherwise same wavelengths covered? R/G/B wise that is?


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## AltarNation (Apr 12, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> So the 660s spd looks kinda like a florasun's then, maybe a bit more intense (more phosphors) in the 660 zone, but otherwise same wavelengths covered? R/G/B wise that is?


It seems similar, but definitely more red judging by the picture. It's hard to compare accurately. Baically, while the flora sun has that wide low "swath" of blue that starts around 350 and settles around 570 in addition to the sharp peaks, the 660 has only the sharp peaks (extremely narrow) and no "swath" (I can't figure out a better way to describe that, sorry) so I figure that is where the extra red energy is offset. I think that it is pretty obvious the 660 has a good bit more red end just from the pics with that magenta hue.

Give me a minute, I am going to do some super imposing to see if evrything else lines up

Edit, okay: Yeah, the peaks line up as expected... however, here are a few differences:
(all observations are relative to their own charts only, as I can't be sure these are measured on similar scales)

-while the 440ish spike and the 550 spike on the Flora Sun are very uneven, with a lot more 440, they are almost exactly the same height in the 660.
-The Flora Sun's UV spikes do not exist in the 660. 
-If you look at the Flora's chart, you will see a small spike at about 580nm. While that spike stays in the 660, the series of small spikes after that are completely gone, as well as the medium spike at 610. 
-While the Flora has a small bump at 700, the 660 bulb does not but has a series of small bumps ranging from 740 to 800. They are very small, though. 

Observations through scaling, which are estimations of relative distributions due to the scales applied being only relative to themselves:

Through vertical scaling, if I match the heights on the 550 spike and the 580 spike, it would seem that both the 410 and 440 spikes are significantly shorter in the 660 bulb... and that the 630 is a bump higher, and the 660 significantly higher. The valleys between are higher as well. I believe this would correlate with the idea of the bulb appearing so red.

In a similar move, I can scale the whole thing vertically to match on the 660 spike, but that wouldn't seem to make any sense because all the other spikes end up significantly shorter than the Flora's and there would be no logical explanation as to where the extra wattage is going from the missing spikes mentioned above, nor the extra wattage from the relatively shorter tri band spikes.


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## AltarNation (Apr 12, 2012)

ValleGrown said:


> What was the cost of these 660s??


Too much. 24 a piece. I am disappointed at the cost. Unless I see some absurd magic out of it, I'd still think this isn't a good investment overall.


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## falcon223 (Apr 12, 2012)

Nice cucumber, Mine died. I do good with jalapeños, and tomatoes though I don't eat tomato's,and love cucumbers.


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## hyroot (Apr 12, 2012)

You cant really compare by looking. Have to do math. Where the flora sun 660 peaks just over 40 % . The uvl 660 peaks over......... I could be wrong. by my math that its just over 20%. More equivelant to the roseates. The flora suns do have higher peak in blue,green and red.. Basically the flora sun irradiance is measured in % where the uvl 660 irradiance is measure in w/cm2 . Similar to wave points which are measured in w/m2


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## AltarNation (Apr 12, 2012)

hyroot said:


> You cant really compare by looking. Have to do math. Where the flora sun 660 peaks just over 40 % . The uvl 660 peaks over......... I could be wrong. by my math that its just over 20%. More equivelant to the roseates. The flora suns do have higher peak in blue,green and red.. Basically the flora sun irradiance is measured in % where the uvl 660 irradiance is measure in w/cm2 . Similar to wave points which are measured in w/m2


Oh, well, I don't know how to do the math. I realize you can't compare the peaks directly, which is why I didn't, I was just using the super-imposing to make sure the peaks were all in the same position along the nm scale. I speculated towards the end of my post about the intensity differences, but I was clear to state that it was speculation.

But if what you say is accurate, I don't get why the UVL 660 looks so red dominant then...


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## hyroot (Apr 12, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Oh, well, I don't know how to do the math. I realize you can't compare the peaks directly, which is why I didn't, I was just using the super-imposing to make sure the peaks were all in the same position along the nm scale. I speculated towards the end of my post about the intensity differences, but I was clear to state that it was speculation.
> 
> But if what you say is accurate, I don't get why the UVL 660 looks so red dominant then...


Do you mean appears in the spd or the bulb itself? From what jeff said its supposed to appear as a white bulb like the guisseman midday.


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## rollinbud (Apr 12, 2012)

Excuse me, I really do understand all the excitement here, but I have yet to see a compelling reason to spend $200 on 8 bulbs or more to produce 1-2 ounces per plant. Does anyone have a comparison of all this exotic stuff to regular T5's or the cursed HPS/HID?
Just curious, I want a compelling reason before I spend the $$$$$$$$$$$$


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## hyroot (Apr 12, 2012)

rollinbud said:


> Excuse me, I really do understand all the excitement here, but I have yet to see a compelling reason to spend $200 on 8 bulbs or more to produce 1-2 ounces per plant. Does anyone have a comparison of all this exotic stuff to regular T5's or the cursed HPS/HID?
> Just curious, I want a compelling reason before I spend the $$$$$$$$$$$$


Read the whole thread. I.did comparsons with a 1000 w. 2 other people did comparisons to a 600 watt. Alot of people did comparisons to basic stock t5 bulbs.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 12, 2012)

um dude i harvest 3+ oz every week under 800w HID not T5 read the thread thats a monster for what im doing im getting closee 1.5 gram per watt. i now veg under par T5


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## pr0fesseur (Apr 12, 2012)

Foregive the mirror i hate photobooth !
[video=youtube_share;YuuGZmHKF9k]http://youtu.be/YuuGZmHKF9k[/video]


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## AltarNation (Apr 12, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Do you mean appears in the spd or the bulb itself? From what jeff said its supposed to appear as a white bulb like the guisseman midday.


Someone above posted shots of it already... it's a magenta hue... unless I am mistaken and that was a different 660 bulb he was referencing

And if you are right and the bulb appears close to white I am all done with UVL. They won't see another penny from me. Touting that as a 660nm bulb is fucking absurd. What a waste of my money.

(If I wasn't so busy lately I'd have plugged 'em in by now. Soon enough.)


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## hyroot (Apr 12, 2012)

I re-read it. He said it appears white with a slight pink hue.


On a side note. Im throwing my 1000 w back up in another room. I ordered the eye hortilux mh blue. $200. Its got a great spectrum for hid. Similar to a cmh spectrum. Im going to flower with it.


http://www.eyehortilux.com/products/Metal-Halide


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## infinitalus (Apr 12, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Someone above posted shots of it already... it's a magenta hue... unless I am mistaken and that was a different 660 bulb he was referencing
> 
> And if you are right and the bulb appears close to white I am all done with UVL. They won't see another penny from me. Touting that as a 660nm bulb is fucking absurd. What a waste of my money.


Look at the magenta-ish lamp (below). Thats the 660nm engineering sample from UVL. I dont see any sort of white at all in the picture or when its running. I really want to see the SPD now because of the output mentioned in the blue and green. I was under the assumption that it was going to be what the Super Actinic is for blue as this 660nm lamp is for red. Sounds thoroughly disappointing from what Ive been reading, but we will see I suppose.

Ive been scouring for lamps that have strong, dedicated output at 650-670nm.. can anyone provide links/graphs of lamps that has this? If not, the best available substitute?

Edit: After thinking about it, magenta containing both blue and green makes a lot of sense. Still disappointed but now on the hunt for an even deeper red if its available

Also, other companies market their lamps in a similar fashion. They will call their lamp a 420 but the strongest peak is at 450-460. Red phosphor is much harder to come by, therefor more costly and rare for a company since these lamps were designed for AQUARIUM/CORAL use which is mostly blue/yellow/green with a touch of red. The sun at these tropic locations emits most wavelengths except deep red, so most companies dont offer a deep red for this reason.) Using T5 for horticulture is a pretty new concept when most commercial growers use MH/HPS. Less labor and less things that can go wrong using one single lamp @ 1000w over 16 lamps @ 1024w lamps plus labor costs and etc of setting it up. Some are shifting to plasma lighting, but still doesnt offer what T5 lighting can do. (I think prof in his most recent appearance said hes putting a plasma in his hydro hut? That will be an interesting journal as well)


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## infinitalus (Apr 12, 2012)

That blue lamp has a pretty broad spectrum, but I still dont think it will be as effective as PAR/PUR lighting. Science and technology offers better than what the sun can bc the sun fluctuates its wavelengths based on its position in the sky. With T5, the spectrum it emits is constant and consistent.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 13, 2012)

rollinbud said:


> Excuse me, I really do understand all the excitement here, but I have yet to see a compelling reason to spend $200 on 8 bulbs or more to produce 1-2 ounces per plant. Does anyone have a comparison of all this exotic stuff to regular T5's or the cursed HPS/HID?
> Just curious, I want a compelling reason before I spend the $$$$$$$$$$$$



Its been done several times over, and the only bulb I'll pay over $11 for is the Red Sun because its so unique/necessary for flowering... everyting else, 8-11$. For the opportunity to tweak your specific custom spectrum to whatever your needs may be, I think is worth the slight extra cost for the loss of heat/ducting/and inefficiency of HID and the gain of a more efficient use of your wattage as well as more options for hanging (vertically/horizontally) I have a 400w HortHPSw/CoolTube sitting in the corner, I dont have any need for it 

If you have a basic understanding of how plants respond to light kinda like a food source, you will clearly understand how giving them the proper "diet" of light can affect growth/development/yield... you can raise one kid on Doughnut Burgers every day and another kid on a healthy well balanced diet with excercise. They'll both grow up to be young men and eventually adults, but one is gonna have diabetes and athsma and allergies to cotton and water, and the other will be a healthy marathon runner. Growers can dial in their nutrients, medium, CO2/environment and every other factor but many neglect a large part of the plants development which is light. different wavelengths of light at different times can trigger different specific responses (ie.. the introduction of IR helps to initiate flowering, and UV can increase resin production as natural sunblock which we of course benefit from in turn) Some people are happy "feeding" their plants plain ol" 6500k/3000k or MH/HPS which are like Fatburgers, they'll provide what is needed to survive, but is far from optimal. Others who take time to research the theories behind PAR/PUR and spectrum specific lighting are quick converts and soon go balls deep into the PAR T5's.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

or balls deep in anything with proper research, anybody know any info about sunblaster 10000k? i can only find the bulbs in the cases and no charts the one place i did find a chart they were calling it a 25000k? cant fond any good info on these bulbs emailed the manufacturer.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 13, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> Foregive the mirror i hate photobooth !
> [video=youtube_share;YuuGZmHKF9k]http://youtu.be/YuuGZmHKF9k[/video]


Professeur you sound about 20yrs old. Good for you!


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 13, 2012)

Aaaaahhhhh!!!!!! Laughmyeverlovinassoff!!!!!


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## hyroot (Apr 13, 2012)

I dont know. I think he might be older than we think. Notice the thumb ring. I only know a few 40 something year olds that still sport those.


Or he's emo/goth. 

Im just messin...


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

im probably the youngest one here.... but im doing all right for my age! planing on some traveling in the next year.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

emo thats fucked up! i hope not.lol


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## infinitalus (Apr 13, 2012)

Haha.. Dont confuse punk w emo or the hardcore kids rolling crew are gonna push your shit in xD

Im 23. Pretty young I guess.

Balls deep... Ahahahah! I got a good laugh on that. I love that movie xD


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## hyroot (Apr 13, 2012)

so after reading several papers and going through plantphysiology.net. My math is so wrong. 3.0E -5 w/cm2. Os measuring par in relation to kelvin temp. Im confused as all hell. My brain hurts.


So that bulb can be awesome. Maybe. If that magenta bulb is it. Thats not what the bulb was described as. Or the redsuns next to it bring out that appearance. or jeff is reiterating from some one else maybe.....

Altar pop those in by themselves. Take a pic please


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## hyroot (Apr 13, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Haha.. Dont confuse punk w emo or the hardcore kids rolling crew are gonna push your shit in xD
> 
> Im 23. Pretty young I guess.
> 
> Balls deep... Ahahahah! I got a good laugh on that. I love that movie xD



Hardcore rolling crew. Roller bladers are hard. They like to kick.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

21... 4 years in this game started breeding when i was 18 moved into my own place when i was 17 made a big leap in growing between 17 and 18 then a really big leap a year ago but now i have chilled out, got most of what i wanted out of the experience im better for it now and could handle much much larger grow w/ expertise now.

roller bladers... hardcore like blag flag hardcore? or minor threat hardcore? or like weather undergroun hardcore......


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## infinitalus (Apr 13, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Hardcore rolling crew. Roller bladers are hard. They like to kick.


Yes.


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## infinitalus (Apr 13, 2012)

Kelvin temp isnt going to help much without a SPD IMO.

The red suns next to it emphasize the difference between the two. Personally, I thought the red it was going to emit would be similar to a fire engine. I was really hoping it was going to be the 'Super Actinic' of the Red side of the spectrum, but it sounds like it wont be. Shrug. Guess Ill wait to see the SPD for myself before deciding.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 13, 2012)

just LOL man. oh man


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

had some crazy shit happen today gas comp. wass replacing line in my area and they asked to come in. i shut everything and prayed the gas man couldn't smell it 5ft away.luckily he was in and out and didnt let on if he did notice anything(my tent is pretty stealth for being a s big ass room got it behind plastic and storage stacked on all sides) so i think im in the green when i read the paper they sent us i didnt say anything about having to light the pilot lights but fuck it its all good, always a good reason to keep shit stealthy and be on your toes for random shit!


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## AltarNation (Apr 13, 2012)

hyroot said:


> so after reading several papers and going through plantphysiology.net. My math is so wrong. 3.0E -5 w/cm2. Os measuring par in relation to kelvin temp. Im confused as all hell. My brain hurts.
> 
> 
> So that bulb can be awesome. Maybe. If that magenta bulb is it. Thats not what the bulb was described as. Or the redsuns next to it bring out that appearance. or jeff is reiterating from some one else maybe.....
> ...


I have a lot of shit on my plate right now but I promise you'll either get some shots of it today or tuesday... I know, what a variation. LOL. I will try to get them in today.

Edit: I made some time... just going to eat this sandwich then I'll go pop them in and take some shots. I want to do an update on my buds anyway, so... that works...


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## AltarNation (Apr 13, 2012)

Alright here they are alone (don't mind the lack of reflectors, they got moved to more efficient slots after the pics)



Here they are with the other bulbs (immediately adjacent are the red suns--again, rearranged my bulbs after these shots so that the red distribution was more even)



Here are some "before" shots with the Fijis in, also will be used as a marker for how the buds were looking before they were added:



And here are a few after shots with teh 660's in place of the fijis so you can see the difference in overall growspace color:



Pretty noticeable increase in overall red, but that's to be expected since they replaced purps and not reds.

They definitely "look pink" to me overall... they aren't red bby a longshot... but they are definitely significantly more pink than the floras. 

Noticed this at the end, a definite gap of distinct white at the end near the cap... I am assuming this is normal, but looks a little weird... makes me wonder how long these will last:



That's all for now folks... will post an update in about 4 days to show where the buds went in the mean time.


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## rollinbud (Apr 13, 2012)

I wasn't talking about HID, whole different ball game...


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## AltarNation (Apr 13, 2012)

rollinbud said:


> I wasn't talking about HID, whole different ball game...


It helps to use quotes in this thread, there are a lot of parallel conversations going.


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## infinitalus (Apr 13, 2012)

Looking at your final pic w the white ends, my 660 is not like that. Perhaps the way they fill the tubes can cause variation.


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## kpmarine (Apr 13, 2012)

rollinbud said:


> Excuse me, I really do understand all the excitement here, but I have yet to see a compelling reason to spend $200 on 8 bulbs or more to produce 1-2 ounces per plant. Does anyone have a comparison of all this exotic stuff to regular T5's or the cursed HPS/*HID*?
> Just curious, I want a compelling reason before I spend the $$$$$$$$$$$$


Yes, you definitely did ask about HID. Though, a couple people covered generic grow and bloom bulb vs. PAR too for you. So either way, you should be covered. Unless something was unclear?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

filter perhaps? or maybe a new design like another chamber or one phosphor reacting off another to create red light? or like dude said could be from the way they fill the tubes. another thing i would like to get answered is if all phosphers aren't florescenceanty equal, is this why blues are so easily obtained? are they as powerful as say the greens yellow and high blues or less than? regardless more useable light is better than more lumens i understand this just trying to get a grasp on how phosphors relate to fluorescence


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## hyroot (Apr 13, 2012)

Altar. Your scrog is lookin good. I think I want some of those bulbs meow.


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## AltarNation (Apr 13, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Altar. Your scrog is lookin good. I think I want some of those bulbs meow.


Thanks man... they look better and better by the day... it'll be interesting to see how they like the new bulbs... I will be doing a feeding tomorrow, then I'm going to ignore them for 3-4 days and see how it looks...


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## hyroot (Apr 13, 2012)

Bang bang

Bubba kush. Getting chopped tonight


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

are you guys ignoring me intentionally?


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## AltarNation (Apr 13, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> filter perhaps? or maybe a new design like another chamber or one phosphor reacting off another to create red light? or like dude said could be from the way they fill the tubes. another thing i would like to get answered is if all phosphers aren't florescenceanty equal, is this why blues are so easily obtained? are they as powerful as say the greens yellow and high blues or less than? regardless more useable light is better than more lumens i understand this just trying to get a grasp on how phosphors relate to fluorescence



lol poly... defintely not ignoring you intentionally... just didn't know what to say to this. Hoping someone with more understanding of fluoros can answer your questions. I don't think it's a filter, but maybe just a poorly filled bulb. It has no visible tint at all when off. And since infinitalus' bulbs don't do it it makes me think he sent me the more flawed bulbs because I bought the very last two he had.


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## kpmarine (Apr 13, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> lol poly... defintely not ignoring you intentionally... just didn't know what to say to this. Hoping someone with more understanding of fluoros can answer your questions. I don't think it's a filter, but maybe just a poorly filled bulb. It has no visible tint at all when off. And since infinitalus' bulbs don't do it it makes me think he sent me the more flawed bulbs because I bought the very last two he had.


Most likely, you got an improperly coated bulb, at least in questionably informed opinion. I'd call in and ask why they charge you for a half-ass prototype.

The phosphors themselves are what make the light, it's that particular phosphor's chemical makeup that allows it to put off a specific wavelength. The intensity of said light is dictated by electrical current primarily from what I can see. The only way to get more energy is more electrons in this case. I think most of the reason blues are so common is quite simple: it's cheaper to obtain the phosphors for blues than the red heavy lighting. I remember that being one of the big reasons red dominant bulbs are pricier and less common.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 13, 2012)

exactly, I believe its Magnesium Arsonate that is needed for the deep reds, and just like almost all other rare earth metals, it is mined and sourced almost exclusively in china, and they've been artificially inflating their price lately because they are also needed in manufacturing electrical components and alot of high tech stuff like ipods etc. Its been in the news that the International Trade Committee or some kinda international group that promotes trade/commerce is filing official complaints against China and is considering some kinda punishment like cancelling trade agreements or ending cooperation with China over it. Anyway, it is more expensive for the Red phosphors, it takes different combos of phosphors to create different colors. for all practical purposes, we can use these lights and count on their output being practically equal, but on a micro-physics level the longer Red wavelengths are not as powerful as the shorter Blue waves, the Blues cary more photonic energy. Through the visible spectrum, the difference isnt really too much (at least for our practical usage), where as the difference between UV and IR is a little more dramatic. In flower when you switch to a red spectrum, a little bit higher percentage needs to be dedicated to Red than Blue would be in Veg. This is due to the weaker Red waves that are needed dont carry quite as much energy so you need a little more Red to actually tip the balance towards the red end of the spectrum

Theres no tint on these bulbs, its a powdered phosphor compound that coats the inside of the tubes like a glaze, if there are spots that are a lighter shade or not the same hue (like on the ends) its prob from that area not getting an equal coating of the phosphor glaze. I dont think it should affect how long the bulb will last, just the hue emitted in that area. Without that coating, the bulbs would emit Hazardous UVc, like germicidal lamps which are basically clear quartzglass fluoros. In our bulbs, the UVc created by the electrical current excites the phosphors to start glowing/emitting the desired colors... kinda similar to colored fireworks in a tube if ya think about it


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## AltarNation (Apr 13, 2012)

Excellent response UC. Great info summary. What are your thoughts on the inch at the end being uncoated? Is it a hazard to my plants? Or to me for that matter? It's only the last inch so if anything maybe it will help by adding a little UV-C? I don't know whether that's good or bad for plants, but it seems other UV's in small doses are good for them, so maybe this is beneficial in a strange way? One more reason to make sure I wear my welding shades in there.


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## hyroot (Apr 13, 2012)

http://5e.plantphys.net/categories.php?t=t


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## MurshDawg (Apr 13, 2012)

I found my old "dream light" it's a 4ft 4 bulb t5 with two 150 watt HPS built in http://www.hydroponics.net/i/381051. Sadly, they discontinued it . Maybe one day I'll find it on E-bay


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## 48martin (Apr 13, 2012)

hyroot said:


> http://5e.plantphys.net/categories.php?t=t


Nice post and a lot of info there. 

-like button


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 13, 2012)

Do any of you masturbate when looking at your plants, or is that just me?


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## hyroot (Apr 13, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Do any of you masturbate when looking at your plants, or is that just me?


Thats just you. Thats contaminating the grow. I just sit on the floor and smoke bowls of same strains. It might be cannoblism to the plants though.


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## infinitalus (Apr 13, 2012)

Edit: UCC covered this


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> exactly, I believe its Magnesium Arsonate that is needed for the deep reds, and just like almost all other rare earth metals, it is mined and sourced almost exclusively in china, and they've been artificially inflating their price lately because they are also needed in manufacturing electrical components and alot of high tech stuff like ipods etc. Its been in the news that the International Trade Committee or some kinda international group that promotes trade/commerce is filing official complaints against China and is considering some kinda punishment like cancelling trade agreements or ending cooperation with China over it. Anyway, it is more expensive for the Red phosphors, it takes different combos of phosphors to create different colors. for all practical purposes, we can use these lights and count on their output being practically equal, but on a micro-physics level the longer Red wavelengths are not as powerful as the shorter Blue waves, the Blues cary more photonic energy. Through the visible spectrum, the difference isnt really too much (at least for our practical usage), where as the difference between UV and IR is a little more dramatic. In flower when you switch to a red spectrum, a little bit higher percentage needs to be dedicated to Red than Blue would be in Veg. This is due to the weaker Red waves that are needed dont carry quite as much energy so you need a little more Red to actually tip the balance towards the red end of the spectrum
> 
> Theres no tint on these bulbs, its a powdered phosphor compound that coats the inside of the tubes like a glaze, if there are spots that are a lighter shade or not the same hue (like on the ends) its prob from that area not getting an equal coating of the phosphor glaze. I dont think it should affect the time the bulb will last light, just the hue emitted in that area. Without that coating, the bulbs would emit Hazardous UVc, like germicidal lamps which are basically clear quartzglass fluoros. In our bulbs, the UVc created by the electrical current excites the phosphors to start glowing/emitting the desired colors... kinda similar to colored fireworks in a tube if ya think about it


thanks UC. you a wealth of information! you to HYROOT! and i have often wondered the affects of smoking the same strain as in your growing in cab, wonder if they can tell they are being burnt.


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## kpmarine (Apr 13, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thanks UC. you a wealth of information! you to HYROOT! and i have often wondered the affects of smoking the same strain as in your growing in cab, wonder if they can tell they are being burnt.


Would it be equivalent to a cremation with the relatives forced to watch?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 13, 2012)

why im just gonna cut some of my hair off and smoke it!

Where is the C.A.P. website they have a bulb that rated at 2800K i wanted to see the graph but i cant find it im trying to find their website so i can find out about the 2800k

its called MAXLUME BLOOM. just looking out for these red bulbs for you guys really interested in SOG results w/ t5


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> why im just gonna cut some of my hair off and smoke it!
> 
> Where is the C.A.P. website they have a bulb that rated at 2800K i wanted to see the graph but i cant find it im trying to find their website so i can find out about the 2800k
> 
> its called MAXLUME BLOOM. just looking out for these red bulbs for you guys really interested in SOG results w/ t5


Discount hydro owns c.a.p. Which owns max lume, quantum, eiko, ushio, digilux, and a few others I can't think of.

http://www.discount-hydro.com/categories/Bulbs/

Heres c.a.p. ( custom automated products) distrbutor site R&M Supply.

http://www.randmsupply.com/dept.php?navid=28

You probably have to email them for the spd.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

thank you hyroot im gonna shoot them an email i was unsure as these site sold products too


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thank you hyroot im gonna shoot them an email i was unsure as these site sold products too


DH is legit. I bought my first light there over 10 years ago when they were a small store. They were one.of the few shops around in those days. The best deals, if your able to deal with the sales manager. Since they own every thing . They should be able to give the best deals.


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## pr0fesseur (Apr 14, 2012)

20yo i wish! more like over 30! but i stay healthy... thumb ring is a gift from my daughter.
I do however look 20 still which is nice... 
Back to business..
Waiting on my shit to show up in the mail... im going to invent the 3d fax so they can just email my shit to my 3d printer!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

Since both the FP54/800HO and the FP54/800C/HO lamps produce 4900 lumens or more, the areas between the filaments of each lamp exhibit high surface brightness.The deeper insertion depth of the standard FP54/800/HO etch side filament, which establishes the "cold zone", results in an uneven shadow patter between the filaments and the bases for the operating lamp. The unevenness makes the shadow pattern more noticeable and has resulted in the mistaken impression that the lamp is "end darkening" very early in life. because the PENTRON C HO lamp does not use the "cold zone" technology, uneven filament insertion depths are not required and the shadows between filaments and bases are even and symmetrical.

couldn't copy paste from site(had to sit and type it) its from Sylvania t5 pentron brochure or something, seems COLD ZONE technology is the culprit, see told you it was in the design!


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## kpmarine (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> Since both the FP54/800HO and the FP54/800C/HO lamps produce 4900 lumens or more, the areas between the filaments of each lamp exhibit high surface brightness.The deeper insertion depth of the standard FP54/800/HO etch side filament, which establishes the "cold zone", results in an uneven shadow patter between the filaments and the bases for the operating lamp. The unevenness makes the shadow pattern more noticeable and has resulted in the mistaken impression that the lamp is "end darkening" very early in life. because the PENTRON C HO lamp does not use the "cold zone" technology, uneven filament insertion depths are not required and the shadows between filaments and bases are even and symmetrical.
> 
> couldn't copy paste from site(had to sit and type it) its from Sylvania t5 pentron brochure or something, seems COLD ZONE technology is the culprit, see told you it was in the design!


Maybe possible, but seeing as it's a loss of pigment. I'm sticking with "bad coating".


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

hey UC how the blue cheese my first popcorn buds of smoke-able bluecheese i just tried to day and i cant get enough! even without the cure a very flavorful bud!


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

Bubba kush and soma rock bud



Sog batch day 8


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

Yesterday I was at my buddies cruising the interweb. I came across a thread in zeo vit. Thomas Pohl of kz was on there saying the fiji has a very high spike at 420nm and 630 nm. Absolutely no yellow, orange, and green.


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## kpmarine (Apr 14, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Yesterday I was at my buddies cruising the interweb. I came across a thread in zeo vit. Thomas Pohl of kz was on there saying the fiji has a very high spike at 420nm and 630 nm. Absolutely no yellow, orange, and green.


Now if only they could actually be bothered to provide someone with an SPD.


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## 48martin (Apr 14, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Bubba kush and soma rock bud
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nice purple hues coming out in the product. Are you running a SOG type setup?

edit. Cant tell if they are clones under the lights or small plants? Looks good either way.


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

1st par sog. I think. I like it more so far. More even canopy. If I pull 20g each. I will get over a pound in a 2x4. If that works out im going to add more sog batches to the garden. Opposed to fewer big plants.

All the ones I do are clones. Thats how I keep the same strains. I let them veg for too long. 2.5 weeks. Now they are 18 inches tall. I wanted them to finish at 15 inches. Oh well. I didnt have room for them until.i chopped some down last week.


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## kpmarine (Apr 14, 2012)

Well, one red sun is down. Haven't even touched it since I put it in the fixture late Feb. If this beomes a rend, I'm seriously not buying those 650's.


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

Unfortunately, with no other red bulbs even available from anyone, it seems like it's impossible to get a good red balance without using either red suns or 660's... what else can we do?? Wish there were more options out there for red-only bulbs but they just don't exist. 

Hyroot rockin the par SOG, I like it. I hate scrogs and I don't give a fuck about plant limits so I just might go that way down the road to conserve my seeds... would like to build a nice aero/bubble cloner first though.


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## kpmarine (Apr 14, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Unfortunately, with no other red bulbs even available from anyone, it seems like it's impossible to get a good red balance without using either red suns or 660's... what else can we do?? Wish there were more options out there for red-only bulbs but they just don't exist.
> 
> Hyroot rockin the par SOG, I like it. I hate scrogs and I don't give a fuck about plant limits so I just might go that way down the road to conserve my seeds... would like to build a nice aero/bubble cloner first though.


Pretty much, we need to solicit someone other than UVL. If this is the best America can do, I can see why people buy foreign. Now that I got that out of my system, I should be starting my SoG in a couple weeks here. Shooting for 24 plants for the first run.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

SOG TAKING OVER! fuck da limits! my sog is rolling good right now im pulling every week, luvin it. got to keep myself supplied for real tho, i smoke between a half and an oz a week.


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## kpmarine (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> SOG TAKING OVER! fuck da limits! my sog is rolling good right now im pulling every week, luvin it. got to keep myself supplied for real tho, i smoke between a half and an oz a week.


Do you have a journal for it? I wanted to get a look at a T5 SoG. Nobody had alot of info when I asked before.


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> SOG TAKING OVER! fuck da limits! my sog is rolling good right now im pulling every week, luvin it. got to keep myself supplied for real tho, i smoke between a half and an oz a week.


Nice... I might try to stagger my sogs when i do them but I am weary about keeping canopy heights even if I do that... I guess I could build some little platforms to keep half the plants on, that way I could have shorter plants and taller plants side by side. Do you do something like this? If you're pulling them every week I assume you've got something ilke this going on to keep the canopy even... seems to be the biggest concern with T5 sog in my eyes


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Unfortunately, with no other red bulbs even available from anyone, it seems like it's impossible to get a good red balance without using either red suns or 660's... what else can we do?? Wish there were more options out there for red-only bulbs but they just don't exist.
> 
> Hyroot rockin the par SOG, I like it. I hate scrogs and I don't give a fuck about plant limits so I just might go that way down the road to conserve my seeds... would like to build a nice aero/bubble cloner first though.


I just built a dwc bubbler mom kit with a 10 gal sterilite tote. I have to take back the air pump. somethings wrong with it. Its super loud. Get my hole saw and drill back. So I can make holes for netpots. 

Scrog is only good for small closet or tent. For perpetual is too much of a pain in the ass. 

For clones. I just use prop trays, domes, square inserts, and rapid rooters. With a seaweed/kelp and silica solution in the tray. 24/0 light cycle. Dready roots in 5 to 10 days. Just dont let roots get light ( square inserts). When I clone in soil instead of rapid rooters it takes 10 to 14 days.


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

We all need to relocate to humby or mendo. 100 sq ft per scrip. Perfect for sog.


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

Yeah, well, I am in a tent.. but I just don't like scrog. I find it inconvenient in a myriad of ways at this point. But maybe my results will change my mind at the end of this grow. As I'm set up now, the plan is to go traditional "straight up" with the next batch... they are all fimmed but I am going to support with bamboo and add back lighting most likely... see how that goes... Thinking I'll grab another 6-bulb and keep my 4-bulb in the veg chamber... so I'll have 10 from above and 6 from behind.


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

hyroot said:


> We all need to relocate to humby or mendo. 100 sq ft per scrip. Perfect for sog.


I've been trying to talk my gf into that move for what seems like forever. Stuck where I'm at for the time being though. Gonna sog anyway, heh.


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

Mine got a little to tall. I moved them around unti the canopy was even. Each one has 3-5 tops. They have a little space im using totes amd lids as saucer/tray. Im going to build flood table when I put in the next batch.


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/60-5-ft-T5-Aquarium-Light-Coral-Reef-8-Lamps-80W-HO-Bulb-640W-Used-R58-Marine-/251037464030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a72ffb5de

Didn't know 5 ft'ers existed...

is this guy still the best deal for fixtures? anyone got better prices than this?

http://www.ebay.com/itm/T5-Grow-Light-Fluorescent-8-Lamps-6500K-Bulbs-Veg-48-4-ft-Sun-Hydroponics-R48-/251037141241?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a72fac8f9

8-bulb for 149 shipped seems pretty damn good to me.

Wanted the 6-bulb but the price jump is pretty small between the 6 and 8. Don't like the look of his reflectors though. It looks like they're two-bulb reflectors like the bad boy? Can't really tell in the pics... might have to shoot him a message and find out


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

Its narrow though. 14 in. My hydrofarm 6 bulbs are 18 in. My bb 8 bulb is 2ft and 16 bulb is 46 in I think.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

well remember guy i only veg with t5 but i would do an sog with them. my preferred light is HID but they can only go so far by themselves i really believe in combinations of lights(led t5 hid ect) proper lighting schedules, and the more the better(if you can handel the temps) im looking to you guys for SOG t5 info lol.


no journal all my pics are pretty much posted i clone 10-20 plants put them in 4x4 pots for week then 1 gal post for a week or 2 then into flower for 7 weeks 3 at a time. 3 rows of 7 1 gal pots in a 2x4x4. in my setup i really dont have to worry about a canopy there is too much light in there (430w hps and 400w MH +2 reptisun 10.0 26w) but for canopy management well they manage themselves trust me they will stretch up to be even just takes practice and there are all types of methods to managing to canopy most of the time i just break it(the cola) so it grows sideways


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Its narrow though. 14 in. My hydrofarm 6 bulbs are 18 in. My bb 8 bulb is 2ft and 16 bulb is 46 in I think.


shit, your 16 bulb fixture is 46 inches wide? That's like, almost 4x4? That's madness big. Can't even imagine. Yeah, his fixture is small, that's why I'm wondering if those are even double-bulb reflectors. Got any good resources for good deals on 6 or 8 bulb fixtures?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

hydroponics.net?

and CL that where i got my bomb ass 6 bulb fixture single reflectors and 2 4in pc fans built in


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> well remember guy i only veg with t5 but i would do an sog with them. my preferred light is HID but they can only go so far by themselves i really believe in combinations of lights(led t5 hid ect) proper lighting schedules, and the more the better(if you can handel the temps) im looking to you guys for SOG t5 info lol.


Unpure! UNPURE!!! *crosses fingers in front of him*

Just kiddin, hahaha. I definitely believe HID is better for sog in a way, but yeah, a blend of T5's and HID is a great option if you can handle the heat. I can barely manage the heat from my T5's... someday i'll get an A/C set up and might go for something more heavy duty... but my T5's have not failed me so far... it will be interesting to see how big the colas get on my next grow with a combo of side light and top light and a bit of a different design on the plants... will be the first time for untrained, just fimmed...


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> hydroponics.net?
> 
> and CL that where i got my bomb ass 6 bulb fixture single reflectors and 2 4in pc fans built in



Hmmm yeah I will check CL but I live remote so it's hard to find much on CL... still worth a look. And hydroponics.net looks like it has some decent deals, thanks!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

i wouldnt say hid is better for sog in fact i disagre completely t5 would be way better as far as the spread goes, HID is for growing large multi cola plants IMO because of thier reach they are more built for a large sog or grow in general where the plants height reach above 3 and 4 ft. the only reason im running it so small is im on my own nowdays and i cant afford to go too large.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

had to drive an hour for my fixture but worth the gas in the end.


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

Just checked all local craigslists, nothin reasonable. Idiots trying to sell their reef lights for like 350, absurd shit, but someone will probably pay it out in yuppyville where it's posted.

The appeal with sog under hid is that the canopy doesn't have to be maintained evenly to make it work. obviously i am pro-T5 on every other aspect, otherwise I'd have found a way to work with HID, heh. I guess what I meant was that it works better for a staggered perpetual harvest sog specifically, because you can have shorty plants and tall plants under the same light with relatively equal light exposure... but yeah, I prefer my T5's anyway so it's a moot point..


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## polyarcturus (Apr 14, 2012)

maintaining the canopy is what makes it fun! i love to beat up on my plants, weak one die thats the way it is nature that how i feel but i havent had a plant die on me for like 2 years now.

hey i feel that alot of mfer think they can get there used shit off for more than its worth, 2 words of advice from a CL pro, always underbid, always tell them you can get it that second. just be patient hope you find a good deal tho.


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> maintaining the canopy is what makes it fun! i love to beat up on my plants, weak one die thats the way it is nature that how i feel but i havent had a plant die on me for like 2 years now.
> 
> hey i feel that alot of mfer think they can get there used shit off for more than its worth, 2 words of advice from a CL pro, always underbid, always tell them you can get it that second. just be patient hope you find a good deal tho.



Yeah that makes sense... but these idiots are asking 350 for something that's worth like 160 tops... not even going to try to do business with someone that dense...

and yeah, maintaining canopy can be fun when it comes to supercropping and stuff... but it can become an issue when you're talkin' bout supercropping every plant from one step of a perpetual harvest, as there is only so much canopy space to share and the little guys need close light too.


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

http://item.mobileweb.ebay.com/viewitem?itemId=190490844894&index=1&nav=SEARCH&nid=88124333061


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

30 to ship makes that 190 for a 6-bulb... for another 10 I could get an 8-bulb hydrofarm at my local shop... so would have to be a better deal than that. Thanks for lookin' though.


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## hyroot (Apr 14, 2012)

Your math is wrong. Its 160 with shipping. 129.99.+ 29.99

Theres another one I ordered from that I cant find. The ebay store is seabrook island


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## AltarNation (Apr 14, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Your math is wrong. Its 160 with shipping. 129.99.+ 29.99
> 
> Theres another one I ordered from that I cant find. The ebay store is seabrook island


Oh, that's not as bad. haha. Thanks. Too much wine.

Edit: Found another one on the same ebay store you linked to for 119+29.99... even better... I will try to find seabrook island and see what htey got, thanks man


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## High^Hopes (Apr 14, 2012)

I got my 6 bulb Hydrofarm for $150 and change shipped. It was from a place called Grow Green Michigan, wasnt as happy that my "plain brown box" option consisted of a heavy black film that had holes torn in it during shipping


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 15, 2012)

Just a real quick photo update from Day 14 Flowering on these Fire OG's

View attachment 2122264View attachment 2122265View attachment 2122266View attachment 2122268


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 15, 2012)

I buy 8 bulb Bad Boys for $170 all day on Ebay.


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## kpmarine (Apr 15, 2012)

Anybody know of bulb distributors that have any deals going on?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 15, 2012)

nope never mind they only make that particular one in t8 im sure they are working on a t5 version though. NM


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## AltarNation (Apr 15, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> http://www.hagen.com/uk/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=112&PROD_ID=01015800031001
> 
> they have a 54w version of the bulb too. i think i may have found the needle!


Woah, if that's an accurate chart, I want more info! Shiiieeeet... nice red spike. Wonder if there's any way to get them in the U.S. for a reasonable price.


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## hyroot (Apr 15, 2012)

Unfortunately Hagen only makes that bulb in 12 in t5 or t8 for the 54 w

Here is the spd for hagens 660 48in t5. Power glo


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## infinitalus (Apr 15, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> http://www.ebay.com/itm/60-5-ft-T5-Aquarium-Light-Coral-Reef-8-Lamps-80W-HO-Bulb-640W-Used-R58-Marine-/251037464030?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a72ffb5de
> 
> Didn't know 5 ft'ers existed...
> 
> ...


You DO NOT want these. I bought one, and soon enough will only be using the fixture as a replacement if something happens. They are not nearly wide enough and the ballasts arent nearly as efficient as the fulham's. A Quantum Badboy is the best way to go (I bought a Grosite Kushmaster and am regretting it) because of all of the vented spots and easy take down. Ill be posting pics soon of the side with the grosite and then when I get my other 2 CO2 bags in Ill take pics of the side with the ebay'd fixture and 2x 4ft 2 lamp T8 fixture I have running next to it for a light booster.

Side by side experiments are fun, but detrimental to a real grow.


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## 48martin (Apr 15, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> You DO NOT want these. I bought one, and soon enough will only be using the fixture as a replacement if something happens. They are not nearly wide enough and the ballasts arent nearly as efficient as the fulham's. A Quantum Badboy is the best way to go (I bought a Grosite Kushmaster and am regretting it) because of all of the vented spots and easy take down. Ill be posting pics soon of the side with the grosite and then when I get my other 2 CO2 bags in Ill take pics of the side with the ebay'd fixture and 2x 4ft 2 lamp T8 fixture I have running next to it for a light booster.
> 
> Side by side experiments are fun, but detrimental to a real grow.


Really good point!

I would say always look carefully at what you buy. Usually these fixtures are lower in price because of cheaper parts and/or cheaper labor. That does not mean you should disregard them but just understand what your getting. I personally will not purchase a fixture that does not have a UL listed ballast or warranty. 

-48


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 15, 2012)

Here are some rebranded Badboys online now selling for the same price but includes the bulbs. Same ballasts too. I figured some of you guys who are looking could use this. 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Skylight-T5-Fluorescent-Fixture-4-ft-8-Lamp-FREE-LAMPS-grow-light-bad-boy-/130675356073?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6cdbb1a9#ht_3099wt_1021


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 15, 2012)

Altar, if those 8 bulb units for $150 on ebay were from the seller Growzebo (i didnt check the link, sry) those are what I have, every fixture I have except for my current Veg 6 bulb (hydrofarm) and 2 side panels (white, 4bulb hydrofarms), all the others are from Growzebo and Ive had no problems, they're worth the money. I use the 8 bulb for top overhead lighting since they're so compact (17" for 8bulbs) and their 4bulb panels for sidelighting. Their 6 and 8bulb panels ARE 2 bulbs per reflector, so they're not as efficient, but they're more compact so I figure they're a little more intense under the footprint so I can deal with it. Their 4bulb panels are single bulb to reflector and more efficient. I switched to a Hydrofarm for a little bit more money but a larger footprint and single bulb/reflectors in my veg box cuz thats what I wanted, but If you wanna cram a shitload of tubes into a smaller space, the Growzebo (Radiion brand) 8bulb panels are pretty decent, for $150 I'd take them over a badboy anyday (especially when Iheard you have to assemble the badboys...wtf???i dunno) check back through some of my pics.... they're all the Radiion cheapo's. oh and free shipping


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## AltarNation (Apr 15, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Altar, if those 8 bulb units for $150 on ebay were from the seller Growzebo (i didnt check the link, sry) those are what I have, every fixture I have except for my current Veg 6 bulb (hydrofarm) and 2 side panels (white, 4bulb hydrofarms), all the others are from Growzebo and Ive had no problems, they're worth the money. I use the 8 bulb for top overhead lighting since they're so compact (17" for 8bulbs) and their 4bulb panels for sidelighting. Their 6 and 8bulb panels ARE 2 bulbs per reflector, so they're not as efficient, but they're more compact so I figure they're a little more intense under the footprint so I can deal with it. Their 4bulb panels are single bulb to reflector and more efficient. I switched to a Hydrofarm for a little bit more money but a larger footprint and single bulb/reflectors in my veg box cuz thats what I wanted, but If you wanna cram a shitload of tubes into a smaller space, the Growzebo (Radiion brand) 8bulb panels are pretty decent, for $150 I'd take them over a badboy anyday (especially when Iheard you have to assemble the badboys...wtf???i dunno) check back through some of my pics.... they're all the Radiion cheapo's. oh and free shipping


Yeah, I like the looks of them. I'm not so concerned about them being compact... I don't see that as a bad thing necessarily... like you said, more intensity per sq. inch.

Thanks for the input everyone. Going to consider my options and hopefully make a purchase before my next batch goes into flower.


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## infinitalus (Apr 15, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Here are some rebranded Badboys online now selling for the same price but includes the bulbs. Same ballasts too. I figured some of you guys who are looking could use this.
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Skylight-T5-Fluorescent-Fixture-4-ft-8-Lamp-FREE-LAMPS-grow-light-bad-boy-/130675356073?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6cdbb1a9#ht_3099wt_1021


Now thats a deal if it is what it claims it is. Although the 3000k bloom lamps shouldnt look white.. one problem is it doesnt list the dimensions of the product. I suppose you could email them and ask.. but I would still prefer PAR/PUR lighting. I guess those lamps could be used as a substitute if one blows.

Personally, Id rather use the badboy just because of the warranty they offer. Once I can afford a badboy, the standard and cheaper fixture will be used for side lighting. Im not really utilizing any at this point.

EDIT: I bought the samething from Growzebo. Worked with me on getting the lamps I wanted, and fast free shipping. Couldnt be happier with the transaction itself. After some consideration, Ill probably get a few more and use them for side lighting.. that way I wont have to trim the bottoms of my plants so much


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## falcon223 (Apr 15, 2012)

Hyroot , or anyone . What photo host do you use. I hate photo bucket. 

Thanks in advance.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 15, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Now thats a deal if it is what it claims it is. Although the 3000k bloom lamps shouldnt look white.. one problem is it doesnt list the dimensions of the product. I suppose you could email them and ask.. but I would still prefer PAR/PUR lighting. I guess those lamps could be used as a substitute if one blows.
> 
> Personally, Id rather use the badboy just because of the warranty they offer. Once I can afford a badboy, the standard and cheaper fixture will be used for side lighting. Im not really utilizing any at this point.
> 
> EDIT: I bought the samething from Growzebo. Worked with me on getting the lamps I wanted, and fast free shipping. Couldnt be happier with the transaction itself. After some consideration, Ill probably get a few more and use them for side lighting.. that way I wont have to trim the bottoms of my plants so much


its a badboy. they just found the manufacturer in china that makes badboys and rebranded it. same maker of the bulbs too.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 15, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Hyroot , or anyone . What photo host do you use. I hate photo bucket.
> 
> Thanks in advance.



imgur.com or just upload here to the site


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## kpmarine (Apr 15, 2012)

RIU hosts photos for the forum.


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## hyroot (Apr 15, 2012)

No no no. That rebranded fake ass badboy nonono. Hydrosource is bad. They have gotten in trouble with every company. They have all pulled their products from them. The shop was a front for a shady dispensary before it got shut down. Suplosedly some of their inventory fell off a truck, winl.wink. They also have horrible reviews.

Also they do not accept returns. It says so in their policy. Ive been to their ghetto hole in the wall store in covina.


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## kpmarine (Apr 15, 2012)

hyroot said:


> No no no. That rebranded fake ass badboy nonono. Hydrosource is bad. They have gotten in trouble with every company. They have all pulled their products from them. The shop was a front for a shady dispensary before it got shut down. Suplosedly some of their inventory fell off a truck, winl.wink. They also have horrible reviews.
> 
> Also they do not accept returns. It says so in their policy. Ive been to their ghetto hole in the wall store in covina.


No returns? That is rather shady. Never trust people from LA county though, they're all shady in my experience.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 15, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Hyroot , or anyone . What photo host do you use. I hate photo bucket.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


For here, I just click the icon in the post/reply toolbar between the globe with a red X and the filmstrip icons... browse to the location on my hard drive to upload directly. The "From URL" tab may be default, so just click the "From Computer" tab to browse your own folders.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 15, 2012)

Chopped these two today...


This is the one I cant wait for, week 4 FruityChronicJuice


Week6 (I think) unk purple sativa... I gotta get some newer closeup pics, but it's def developing some nice purple tinged calyxes and flowers as it ages



Week2 BlueBerryGum (she's at week3 now, and has since been topped/leveled off and is looking gorgeous... yes I know a current pic would help lol, I gotta wait for lights on and go back)




These pics are all over a week old, Ill go in and take some new ones tonite. I just have so much shit to do!!!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 15, 2012)

better to host pics thru the site(this site yes, safer slightly) but on windows 7 you can right click and create a copy of pics with all personal data removed and if you cant do that google delete exif data or go to download.com and download a program that does this.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 15, 2012)

UC- what are your bulb choices there? Lookin good for week 4! I just entered week 4 myself. I'll do a new video tomorrow.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 15, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Chopped these two today...
> View attachment 2123196View attachment 2123197
> 
> This is the one I cant wait for, week 4 FruityChronicJuice
> ...



Lovin it UC. I hope my girls end up looking half as good!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 15, 2012)

View attachment 2123466 anybody try these sylvania gro lux? they dont seem to sell them in america from what i can see

http://www.aquaristikshop.com/cgi-bin/neu/webshop.pl?Nr568060+*+568061+*+568062=1&t=e_temcart


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## AltarNation (Apr 15, 2012)

Undercover those look gravy... let's get some close up shots of that fat bud on the top of that unk purp


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## pr0fesseur (Apr 15, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> better to host pics thru the site(this site yes, safer slightly) but on windows 7 you can right click and create a copy of pics with all personal data removed and if you cant do that google delete exif data or go to download.com and download a program that does this.


even better.
http://www.digitalconfidence.com/downloads.html


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## polyarcturus (Apr 15, 2012)

nice some new freeware ill check it out thx prof.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 15, 2012)

check it http://www.arcadia-uk.info/product.php?pid=11&mid=10&lan=en&sub=&id=4

jbl and arcadia got the shit you guy need! i dont know how to get them shipped here for the cheap tho


http://www.arcadia-uk.info/product.php?pid=97&mid=12&lan=en&sub=&id=4

http://www.jbl.de/en/aquatics-freshwater-products/detail/2384/jbl-solar-natur-ultra


http://www.swelluk.com/delivery-information.html they seem very promising they offer international shipping says contact them.


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## infinitalus (Apr 15, 2012)

That one hits the 660-670 spot, but theres just not enough power in the 600 range to influence a spending decision. Check over the fiji purple SPD again. Theres also less of a green spike for the fijis.

Heres the fiji SPD


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## kpmarine (Apr 15, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> That one hits the 660-670 spot, but theres just not enough power in the 600 range to influence a spending decision. Check over the fiji purple SPD again. Theres also less of a green spike for the fijis.
> 
> Heres the fiji SPD


Isn't that the SPD of dubious origins?


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## infinitalus (Apr 15, 2012)

Heres a look at pics I took inside the tent very early friday morning. Ill put pics up in a couple hours of how big they have grown in just a few days.




This is a close up of the two farthest back on the left side of the tent. I love how those leaves cup up! This is week 2 of flower. The one on left is Blueberry, on right is an AK variant I had a bag of and found a single seed out of a quarter oz. I called the guy up and he was pissed; he had a QP and didnt find a seed in any of the bags at all. I successfully germinated the mother 09/11/2011. Clones did well. Its the last time Im running any of the genes I have though. Im running RockLock next, check it out: http://www.cannabis-seeds-bank.co.uk/dna-genetics-rocklock-feminized/prod_750.html 



Far left side of the tent. The flexible venting is a 6" inline 240CFM fan intake. 12" stand fan pointed toward the middle to back side of the tent for optimal airflow.



Canopy shot. Yeah I know the front left plant doesnt look so well. It completely recovered from severe nutrient deficiency during mid veg. The measuring tools I was using for liquid nutrients were way off. I solved the problem.



Shot of my light setup. I decided it would be a much better idea to spread all that red out. From top to bottom: RedSun/FijiPurple/454/RedSun/660nm/SuperActinic/FijiPurple/RedSun


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 16, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Heres the fiji SPD


Guaranteed not to be the fiji purp spd. KZ won't publish their data because they source their tubes from another manufacturer (I believe Hagen) and they don't have the rights to publish them, just like those with a UVL 660 sample can't publish any graph they may have, same restrictions.


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## infinitalus (Apr 16, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Isn't that the SPD of dubious origins?


Fair enough. I checked my source and its source isn't credible. I searched for it here and on page 121 or something in this thread its stated that they tried to get ahold of the people at KZ and they refused to provide a spectral graph. Does seem kinda detrimental if they really want to market it. Its not like anyone is going to pinpoint the phosphor mixture they are using. Disappointing.

PS, that UVB lamp is pretty hot, too bad its not available in the states. I wouldnt pay a large amount for shipping for just a few lamps


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## infinitalus (Apr 16, 2012)

Took 15 min ago. Cant wait!


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## kpmarine (Apr 16, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Guaranteed not to be the fiji purp spd. KZ won't publish their data because they source their tubes from another manufacturer (I believe Hagen) and they don't have the rights to publish them, just like those with a UVL 660 sample can't publish any graph they may have, same restrictions.


It's Sylvania, same folks that make the ATI purple plus. Did the folks at KZ actually say that's why they won't give the SPD up? Not calling you a liar, but if they did say that they don't have the rights, that means Sylvania does I would imagine.They don't seem too keen on coughing up the difference between it and the ATI purple plus, just saying there is "a difference". Makes you wonder if the difference is meaningful... http://reefbuilders.com/2011/01/27/sylvania-t5-kz-fiji-ati-purple/


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## polyarcturus (Apr 16, 2012)

there was another site i was looking at they will sell/ship 6 bulbs for 90$(15$ a bulb 30$ shipping for 3kg of weight) if you go to google.co.uk adn search for European company that ship international T5 54w(they do their measurement is watts mostly) you will finda that few will ship without outragous shipping costs


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## falcon223 (Apr 16, 2012)

Well you have to wrap the bulbs vary well and box them so as to make it to your door unbroken. That alone is a a lot of money.


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## AltarNation (Apr 16, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Well you have to wrap the bulbs vary well and box them so as to make it to your door unbroken. That alone is a a lot of money.


Tell them I have plenty of extra fluoro wrapping material just sitting around at this point... they can have it... in fact please take it... LOL... too bad it's over here on this side of the lake...


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## kpmarine (Apr 16, 2012)

Hey, what do you folks think of this? It's the Aqua Medic Planta bulb. Have only found them on amazon so far. Looks promising in my opinion. Seems like it has that 660 spike we have been seeking.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 16, 2012)

cant confirm thats the TRUE SPD. i emailed them to make sure i thought them and TRUELUMEN are promising if they would give us the charts!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 16, 2012)

Day 35 flower with T5's and details here on my journal -- https://www.rollitup.org/cfl-fluorescent-lighting/518706-my-t5-lucas-formula-grow-3.html

View attachment 2125003View attachment 2125004View attachment 2125006View attachment 2125007View attachment 2125008View attachment 2125009View attachment 2125011View attachment 2125012View attachment 2125013View attachment 2125014


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## falcon223 (Apr 16, 2012)

Hay Alter I have poped 2 Kolossus, and 2 Killing Fields, and my free Kush. Hope I get some females.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 16, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Hey, what do you folks think of this? It's the Aqua Medic Planta bulb. Have only found them on amazon so far. Looks promising in my opinion. Seems like it has that 660 spike we have been seeking.
> View attachment 2124610


If that is the true SPD I will defenatly be getting a few of those. LOL all the lights I want are killing the budget so much I had to DIY an exhaust lol


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## infinitalus (Apr 16, 2012)

Id get a few of those myself for a confirmed SPD and replace my fijis with those. I also had a few 20" T5 single lamp fixtures laying around, Im putting the order in tomorrow for 2 of these to be set on 6 hour timers, right in the middle of my photo-period. A little bit of UV-B ought to kick start trichome production. I didnt notice any last night, but they are definitely starting to stink.

http://www.google.com/imgres?q=r+zilla+desert+50+spectral+graph&um=1&hl=en&sa=X&rlz=1C1CHFX_enUS429US429&biw=1599&bih=795&tbm=isch&tbnid=m3Lg1gBYlKbuWM:&imgrefurl=http://www.treatingyourself.com/vbulletin/showthread.php%3Ft%3D45525&docid=-mMwIOYbhg6rVM&imgurl=http://www.uvguide.co.uk/images/phototherapyphosphor/BZL2fullspectrum.gif&w=650&h=483&ei=d7GMT9CFKaXd0QGxvYX-CQ&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=181&sig=100431237467665173598&page=1&tbnh=126&tbnw=169&start=0&ndsp=32&ved=1t:429,r:1,s:0,i:69&tx=87&ty=55


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## falcon223 (Apr 16, 2012)

My replacement T5s arrived about a week ago, from Jeff at UVL, and are going strong. I think they got the problem fixed. 
If they go another week I will start bragging about there performance.


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## hyroot (Apr 16, 2012)

That bulb has already been covered in this thread. They don't make the planta anymore. They replaced it with plant. Which has a weak.spectrum. Right now zoo med flora suns the only good 660 bulbs in the U.S. 

I received an email today from Jeff at UVL. No bulbs available. He says they are in the infant stages of testing. The 660 bulbs will hit the market in June.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 16, 2012)

hyroot said:


> That bulb has already been covered in this thread. They don't make the planta anymore. They replaced it with plant. Which has a weak.spectrum. Right now zoo med flora suns the only good 660 bulbs in the U.S.
> 
> I received an email today from Jeff at UVL. No bulbs available. He says they are in the infant stages of testing. The 660 bulbs will hit the market in June.


I tried to keep track of all the different bulbs when I read the whole thread before i started buying my lights, somehow must have missed it. Sad that it isnt made anymore.


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## hyroot (Apr 16, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> I tried to keep track of all the different bulbs when I read the whole thread before i started buying my lights, somehow must have missed it. Sad that it isnt made anymore.


It might of been in one of the 100 pages that got deleted from this thead when the RIU servers were hacked.


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## pedro420 (Apr 16, 2012)

Ya I emailed aqua medic and they sent me the spd for all there t5 bulbs 
The best 2 are the reef blue and the plant grow but Tue plant grow has a weak spectrum 

Here they are


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## hyroot (Apr 16, 2012)

Looking good LV


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## kpmarine (Apr 16, 2012)

hyroot said:


> It might of been in one of the 100 pages that got deleted from this thead when the RIU servers were hacked.


Either way, I totally missed it. Does explain why I have had an issue actually finding the bulbs. haha Thanks for the heads up.


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 16, 2012)

hyroot said:


> It might of been in one of the 100 pages that got deleted from this thead when the RIU servers were hacked.


That would make alot of sense. Thanks for the heads up Hy. Tried to rep you but i have to spread the love first. Heh I actually can no longer rep any of the regular posters in this thread. I am going to have to branch out and pay attention to more non t5 folks so I can give you guys the rep you deserve in here.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 16, 2012)

If you guys have individual grows you should start a seperate thread and link them. This thread is way too hard to follow.


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## pedro420 (Apr 16, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> If you guys have individual grows you should start a seperate thread and link them. This thread is way too hard to follow.


I have a link in my sig for my grow its not much but its what I got


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## infinitalus (Apr 16, 2012)

I have a grow going but no active journal. I didnt have my journal method organized until recently and Ill be using it when I start up my next run after I move to an actual house instead of an apt/condo. Till then Ill be trolling and posting weekly pics, contributing to an already awesome thread. T5 growing for life


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## Beagle (Apr 16, 2012)

There's a group we can post in. https://www.rollitup.org/groups/advanced-t5-growers-2011.html


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 16, 2012)

Beagle said:


> There's a group we can post in. https://www.rollitup.org/groups/advanced-t5-growers-2011.html


Good looking out, just joined and will become active over there. Didnt know that group exhisted. +1

Cheers


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 16, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Ya I emailed aqua medic and they sent me the spd for all there t5 bulbs
> The best 2 are the reef blue and the plant grow but Tue plant grow has a weak spectrum
> 
> Here they are
> View attachment 2125210View attachment 2125211View attachment 2125212View attachment 2125213


I have 2 of the plant grows, compare their SPD to the FloraSun and they're almost equal... However the PlantGrows I have both have tiny dots or etches on the inside of the glass where it looks like the phosphor coating didnt adhere... looks like tiny dots of UVc leakage... very very bad. They just dont seem like quality to me, compared to the FloraSuns which are half the price, quality made, and even appear abit heavier in the red/pink end when side by side with a PlantGrow... Having both, I'd recomend the $8 FloraSun 

#1 FloraSun (abt $8
#2 CoralLife Colormax (abt $13)
#3 AquaMedic PlantGrow (abt $20)
#4 AquaticLife Roseate (abt $11)
...avg prices from what Ive found

havent used the discontinued ATI ProColor


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 16, 2012)

Removed by poster due to being in a very bad mood when it was writen and calmer heads prevailing today.

Snoochie Boochies


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## kpmarine (Apr 16, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Just an FYI from those who I have talked to here and care. I am prolly going to kill my grow journal and stop posting on this site in the next few days or so based on the assholeness I have recieved from trying to share an idea I had for folks on super tight budgets like me. All you LED without LED folks, you spoiled me, I got used to the constructive converstation and critisisim from this thread and thought more people were like that. Just found out that most people on here are the exact oposite of the great people I have talked to on this thread.
> 
> See ya guys sometime maybe.


Meh, it's the way of the internet. Anytime you give someone a way to be a dick with no real consequences, you will have dicks.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 16, 2012)

Day 35 flower. Not feelin the growth in the fixture using 3000k, Fiji, Red sun, Actinic, 454,Flora Sun.

By far the one running away with the growth is the fixture running the 3000ks mixed evenly with the Flora Suns. Which is great for me because it's the cheapest setup

I'm done with any bulb that costs more than $12. No need. Bottom line is you need these bulbs SUPER close to the plant or you will get airy buds. Period. Co2 would definitely help as well but I don't have it in this room.

All things being equal and considering how close your lights must be to your plants, I will probably opt for switching this room into a veg room and filling these fixtures up with 5500 and 6500k bulbs and just using my other 2 rooms for Flowering with HPS.

As much as I like the T5's I just need too damn many fixtures in this room to cover the amount of plants I need to cover. Unless you are flowering plants that are less than 14" tall, you will need to keep it at a max of 2-3 under each 8 bulb. Scrog would be a good idea.

As for commercial production using T5's. Forget it. The light management is a chore.

[video=youtube;59M05qJNoVA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59M05qJNoVA&amp;context=C43e407cADvjVQa1PpcFMG nNR9hWzX24ZtIRBC4q_Mcm_MZlcxMNY=[/video]


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## hyroot (Apr 17, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> I have 2 of the plant grows, compare their SPD to the FloraSun and they're almost equal... However the PlantGrows I have both have tiny dots or etches on the inside of the glass where it looks like the phosphor coating didnt adhere... looks like tiny dots of UVc leakage... very very bad. They just dont seem like quality to me, compared to the FloraSuns which are half the price, quality made, and even appear abit heavier in the red/pink end when side by side with a PlantGrow... Having both, I'd recomend the $8 FloraSun
> 
> #1 FloraSun (abt $8
> #2 CoralLife Colormax (abt $13)
> ...


They raised their price on flora suns $11.69


http://www.aquariumguys.com/zoo-med-flora-sun-max-plant-growth-t5-ho-fluorescent-lamp-46in-54w.html

After shipping its the same price as petco which is $15.39 and free shipping if you spend $49. They are evrywhere. So you can return it in person if need be. Faster free shipping too.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 17, 2012)

Fuck Aquarium Guys


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## falcon223 (Apr 17, 2012)

Jsamuel, you been on the internet long?? You will never be right or liked, or cool on a forum for very long.


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## 48martin (Apr 17, 2012)

That is why I dont bother with any Journals in the first place but I do like the people within the T5 group. 
Don't sweat it JS, and stay in soil. 

-48



jsamuel24 said:


> Just an FYI from those who I have talked to here and care. I am prolly going to kill my grow journal and stop posting on this site in the next few days or so based on the assholeness I have recieved from trying to share an idea I had for folks on super tight budgets like me. All you LED without LED folks, you spoiled me, I got used to the constructive converstation and critisisim from this thread and thought more people were like that. Just found out that most people on here are the exact oposite of the great people I have talked to on this thread.
> 
> See ya guys sometime maybe.


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## AltarNation (Apr 17, 2012)

Updated me grow journal with some new pics for y'allz, follow the link in the sig if you wanna see. They're coming along. I'm not sure the increase in red changed much, but they're definitely still growing so we'll see where it goes.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 17, 2012)

sun blaster SPD? they just emailed me this, what you guys think? believable?

altar you should rephrase your statement like this, "we'll see where this grows."


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## kpmarine (Apr 17, 2012)

Just some half-assed play with the vertical axis. I'd bet my bottom dollar. Otherwise, if I'm reading these charts right; one T5HO bulb is somehow putting out more photon energy than the sun. Seems a bit opimistic on their part.


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## pedro420 (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm with kp on this

I don't see it possible for a flouro to put out more photons than the sun I mean come on its the sun go look at it for a few minuts then go look at a flouro for a couple minuts and tell me which is brighter


Edit - I accualy do not recommend looking directly at the sun as it can cause several problems to your eyes - but I think everybody gets where I was going with that


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## polyarcturus (Apr 17, 2012)

it just doesnt make sense every time i look at it im like thats not possible it would have to be an hid to be that intense.

wtf kind of company even bothers emailing me back with this bullshit? trust and believe i will never buy one of their bulbs


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## pedro420 (Apr 17, 2012)

I have found that the only true way to get the spd - correct spd - is to go to the store where they are being sold and look at the box the bulb comes in if there isn't one in the box then go to costumer service and tell them you want to see it if they say no then look em in the face and say - well you just lost a costumer I'll go spend my money somewhere else - if that don't change their mind then go spend your money somewhere where they will provide a spd


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## infinitalus (Apr 17, 2012)

I doubt if a shop would literally tell the customer they cant see an SPD of a certain lamp, most shops would probably be like WTF are you talking about? I asked for a loupe at two of my local stores and they scratched their heads til I said pocket microscope. Most shops would most likely not have SPDs of lamps unless its an actual aquarium shop and even then it would be hit or miss. 

You guys have got to figure that these lamps are relatively new to the scene and companies are only now (last 5-10 years at the most) starting to look at using them for horticultural purposes. Companies like UVL (which is looking into tapping the 660nm spectrum) either have to be contracted by these commercial farmers (doubtful since they would have to revamp their equipment lineup and setup completely) or spend their own money into research and development into new lamps (also doubtful because of cost). Hydroponics produce managers want the cheapest growth where as medicinal enthusiasts like us want the most efficient growth which includes quality and quantity.

Kinda sucks that some places cant/wont release SPDs of certain lamps. Most notably Korallen-Zucht fiji purple and now UVL 660nm prototype, but thats for contractual obligations out of our control.

Funny thing is I found T8 Flora Suns (2x 4ft 2 lamp fixtures for side lighting.. 1x flora sun 1x 6500k in each fixture) way before I even started to look into this forum for T5 growing. I knew I was on the right track!


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## hyroot (Apr 17, 2012)

Costumer huh. do you dress up like a fish when you go there


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## polyarcturus (Apr 17, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Costumer huh. do you dress up like a fish when you go there


hyroot you so funny


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 17, 2012)

You guys are over thinking it. Some of us are trying to save you fools money and tell ya you only need the cheaper bulbs. Some of us already spent the money and did the trials!


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## pedro420 (Apr 17, 2012)

Lol I just realized that I put costumers and not customer sry bout that I have been in a rush all day talking to different companies about bulbs and production trying to figure out what's to come and what not 

hyroot - I think it would be hilarious if someone went in a aquarium store dressed as a big fish or take a baby in the store dressed as a fish and put them in one of the display tanks


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## infinitalus (Apr 17, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> You guys are over thinking it. Some of us are trying to save you fools money and tell ya you only need the cheaper bulbs. Some of us already spent the money and did the trials!


Are you saying that flora suns should replace both Red Suns and Fiji Purples? The UVL Super Actinic and UVL 454 are PERFECT for blue light, but it seems that there isnt enough 600-630from the flora sun to meet chlorophyll B's needs. Maybe its because of the spikes in blue and green are minor, it blows the comparison of how much red there actually is out of proportion?

IDK, Im all about reducing cost AND avoid having to wait 2+ months for additional red suns to be manufactured. I have 4 on hand and the 660 but without a SPD its as questionable as the fiji purples. I like to know what I pay for. If I had known that the fiji chart I had found is more than likely a fake, Id have kept looking.

Right now I cant afford ANY more equipment, and I have enough of everything to finish this run and start the next. Im ordering my seeds next month for maximum freshness when I do plant them.

Heres what Im thinking for veg next run.. ZooMed420/FloraSun/454/RedSun/75.25/ZooMed420/FloraSun/454. All of which are ~20 each. Im an amazon prime member for free 2 day shipping, worth every penny of the $80 yearly fee.

108.35 shipped from aquariumspecialty for the 4 uvl lamps (since i already have 4x red suns, im omitting a 19.95 cost for myself) 88.40
70.42 shipped from amazon for the 4 zoo med lamps. 
178.77 total if you can manage to get your hands on a red sun.

Price difference is substantial. If you purchase $175+ from aquariumspecialty they ship free. I paid $192 shipped free for my 8 lamps. I just looked again and if I were to buy the same 8 lamps I purchased for flowering would be $200.05.

Price difference is slightly in favor of switching lamps along with a manufacturer given SPD.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 17, 2012)

I'm saying you can just put Flora Suns and some 3000k Agromax bulbs together and call it a day. I'm growing bigger use that way. Just keep the fixture super close to the canopy and keep the canopy open wide and level.


Period.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 17, 2012)

And I'll go one even further than that. I don't even think you need the FloraSuns! I think the 4100k Philips Bulbs from Home Depot used in a fixture at 30% to 70% Agromax 3000's and you will be set.


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## infinitalus (Apr 17, 2012)

Since theyre commercial bulbs Im assuming theres no SPD? I looked around on google for a bit and didnt come up with anything. Right now my canopy is 8-10" away from the tops. A little heat stress is OK but Im not trying to damage the colas growth when they are just baby buds. Also, some of my indicas are still growing at 1" or so a day. Wish theyd quit that...


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## pedro420 (Apr 17, 2012)

So I was surprised today when I went to look at my girls I saw amazing sight this is a bud on my lemon skunk it is only 4 weeks into flower as of yesterday only useing 4 bulbs (2 flora suns 1 coral wave 1 3000k) this should prove you don't need a bunch of top dollar bulbs cost me $28 and got a bud like this 

https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/general-marijuana-growing/2126545d1334698501-pedros-2nd-grow-img_20120417_163320.jpg


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 17, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Since theyre commercial bulbs Im assuming theres no SPD? I looked around on google for a bit and didnt come up with anything. Right now my canopy is 8-10" away from the tops. A little heat stress is OK but Im not trying to damage the colas growth when they are just baby buds. Also, some of my indicas are still growing at 1" or so a day. Wish theyd quit that...


At 8-1o" away be prepared for very fluffy airy buds. I keep my light 1" off the highest bud. Which is typically no more than 2-3" higher than the rest.


Yiu will not burn plants at 3-4" away


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## infinitalus (Apr 17, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> At 8-1o" away be prepared for very fluffy airy buds. I keep my light 1" off the highest bud. Which is typically no more than 2-3" higher than the rest.
> 
> 
> Yiu will not burn plants at 3-4" away


Can you show me a pic of this please?

edit: actually, this makes sense if you are using CO2. Plants can take up to 90 degrees of ambient temperature with CO2. T5 lamps operate at 95 degrees or so. I have that clip on fan at the end of my reflector so that should help move air along the way. I suppose I should drop it then.


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## infinitalus (Apr 17, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> So I was surprised today when I went to look at my girls I saw amazing sight this is a bud on my lemon skunk it is only 4 weeks into flower as of yesterday only useing 4 bulbs (2 flora suns 1 coral wave 1 3000k) this should prove you don't need a bunch of top dollar bulbs cost me $28 and got a bud like this
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/attachments/general-marijuana-growing/2126545d1334698501-pedros-2nd-grow-img_20120417_163320.jpg


4 weeks eh? thats not bad. My baby buds dont look too bad either at 2 weeks. The calyxes look quite plump already.

edit: where did you find flora suns and the coral wave for so cheap?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 17, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Can you show me a pic of this please?
> 
> edit: actually, this makes sense if you are using CO2. Plants can take up to 90 degrees of ambient temperature with CO2. T5 lamps operate at 95 degrees or so. I have that clip on fan at the end of my reflector so that should help move air along the way. I suppose I should drop it then.


Take a look at my plants. Browse my Lucas Formula thread. My plants are at 5 weeks


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## 48martin (Apr 17, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Take a look at my plants. Browse my Lucas Formula thread. My plants are at 5 weeks


I get them 2 - 4 inches with no heat issues for the most part. (occasional leaf tip burnt due to growth) 
These lights do not have great penetration or a huge footprint. That is why many Scrog or do extreme LSTing.

-48


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> 4 weeks eh? thats not bad. My baby buds dont look too bad either at 2 weeks. The calyxes look quite plump already.
> 
> edit: where did you find flora suns and the coral wave for so cheap?


The pet store in my town has them and they were haveing a sale and I got them went to get more a few days later but they wasn't haveing the sale anymore


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 18, 2012)

Im with LV, you dont need to spend $20 per bulb!!! The only one I will (veeeery reluctantly due to quality issues) is the RedSun and when available the 660. Otherwise, the WavePoint BlueWave and AquaticLife 420/460 both completely cover the full Blue spectrum, and for the Red/flowering spectrum, a combo of one or two CoralWaves for Blue and IR, then the rest FloraSuns (with a RS or two if ya want to spend$ for it)

LV if you're going for the best absolute cheapo blend, I think you might get abit tighter nugs with (1) FloraSun and (1) 6500k. 6500k's are more efficient PAR-wise since 3000k bloom bulbs put out alot of wasted Yellow/Orange where the 6500k have more PAR Blue, which will reduce stretching vs yellow/orange which causes stretching. They may grow a little slower and it may take a bit longer to switch into full flowering, but I think the Grow/FS may yield more in the end... just my thought on it. It'd be an interesting comparison (... anyone ever heard of someone flowering with 6500k's only?)

Anyway, since the RedSuns took a shit on a bunch of us, Ive been using 1 CoralWave to 3 FloraSuns and have been more than happy!


5weeks (3/12) since switch to 12/12




Switched 2/27 - 7weeks
 

3/17, exactly 4weeks since flip


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 18, 2012)

Although I dont know about ditching the FloraSuns LV... nothing on the market that I know of has as much 630-660 and is cheap as dirt but good quality, Ill take em all day over ANY comercial bulb.

And the AquaticLife Marine Purple 460/620's... junk. Next to a Pure Actinic, they only appear _slightly_ whiter and not so pure blue like the actinic. _BARELY ANY_ red/orange in he graph (The SPD shows its only a tiny 610 spike anyway, not even 620) but I was curious and got two... I may use them in veg, but they're nothing to brag about.


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## infinitalus (Apr 18, 2012)

I cant wait for the ultra grow lamps to come out. I wouldnt mind paying $20 for those but I hope theyll be cheaper 

Ive got trich heads forming all over the place on my sativas, looking real good xD

UCC, you have a LOT of T5s rolling in your room bro! Nice! Im a get a bunch of those T8 fixtures from walmart and use em for side lighting. Better light spread than the Radiions youre using I think, just a bigger mess of electrical cords since they cant be daisy chained


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm gonna stock with my flora sun and coral waves mixed untill there is a good 660 bulb available then I will see what happins


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 18, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> I cant wait for the ultra grow lamps to come out. I wouldnt mind paying $20 for those but I hope theyll be cheaper
> 
> Ive got trich heads forming all over the place on my sativas, looking real good xD
> 
> UCC, you have a LOT of T5s rolling in your room bro! Nice! Im a get a bunch of those T8 fixtures from walmart and use em for side lighting. Better light spread than the Radiions youre using I think, just a bigger mess of electrical cords since they cant be daisy chained


They're gonna look just like FloraSuns, only they're Chinese made... take it for what it is. I have several WavePoint bulbs and havent had a problem with any, and I do plan to get an UltraGrowth or two just to compare, but look at the SPD for each, they're practically the same except WavePoint exagerates the vertical axis and makes them look "more intense". but compare the height of the peaks within their own graph, they both have relatively equal levels of red to blue and at the same wavelengths. ZooMed is proven quality German made bulbs, where WavePoint are Chinese, and are both around the same pricepoint (I wouldnt imagine the UltraGrowth's would be much more than their other bulbs, prob in the $10-13 range) my point is just dont look to the WavePoint bulb to be the savior. I dont like UVL for their pricepoint or the RedSun fiasco, but from what ive seen, the 660 has a very pure deep Magenta hue and I dont see much else, I think it very may well surprise the doubters, and I would be suprised if it had more than a tiny bit of blue/green in it and likely is a pretty pure spike in the 660 range (I havent seen the SPD but I think Ive become quite skilled in being able to pick out different hues and it looks pretty good to me, I cant recall a solo single bulb pic but next to the RedSuns it looked just as pure but deeper, not even pink like a FloraSun (my RedSun's look Red alone, but orange next to my FloraSun's since the FS's actually have a deeper red to them although not as intense and also blended with a tiny bit of B/G to reach that nice pink) I like WavePoint for their BlueWave to cover blues in Veg since its a good cheap bulb, and the CoralWave for Blues in flowering with IR. otherwise even with the UltraGrowth I still think Ill only use the BW and CW, I love my FloraSuns guys. I have some 2ft Red Suns coming from HelloLights tho, we'll see how it goes this time (still out of 54w)


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## polyarcturus (Apr 18, 2012)

wow i was about to reorder the same setup i started with but you just talked me straight. i think i will get the flora sun, 6 of them. fuck it. ill flower with them once i get my 4 bulb fixture put back together(blew bulbs ballasts OK!), i think a hps and some florasuns and a some uv bulbs might make some brain damage bud.


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## AltarNation (Apr 18, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> *but from what ive seen, the 660 has a very pure deep Magenta hue and I dont see much else,*


Just fyi, in my opinion it shows up on camera a bit deeper hue than it really is. It's definitely a pink tone. A lot richer than the FloraSun, but still definitely pinkish.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 18, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> They're gonna look just like FloraSuns, only they're Chinese made... take it for what it is. I have several WavePoint bulbs and havent had a problem with any, and I do plan to get an UltraGrowth or two just to compare, but look at the SPD for each, they're practically the same except WavePoint exagerates the vertical axis and makes them look "more intense". but compare the height of the peaks within their own graph, they both have relatively equal levels of red to blue and at the same wavelengths. ZooMed is proven quality German made bulbs, where WavePoint are Chinese, and are both around the same pricepoint (I wouldnt imagine the UltraGrowth's would be much more than their other bulbs, prob in the $10-13 range) my point is just dont look to the WavePoint bulb to be the savior. I dont like UVL for their pricepoint or the RedSun fiasco, but from what ive seen, the 660 has a very pure deep Magenta hue and I dont see much else, I think it very may well surprise the doubters, and I would be suprised if it had more than a tiny bit of blue/green in it and likely is a pretty pure spike in the 660 range (I havent seen the SPD but I think Ive become quite skilled in being able to pick out different hues and it looks pretty good to me, I cant recall a solo single bulb pic but next to the RedSuns it looked just as pure but deeper, not even pink like a FloraSun (my RedSun's look Red alone, but orange next to my FloraSun's since the FS's actually have a deeper red to them although not as intense and also blended with a tiny bit of B/G to reach that nice pink) I like WavePoint for their BlueWave to cover blues in Veg since its a good cheap bulb, and the CoralWave for Blues in flowering with IR. otherwise even with the UltraGrowth I still think Ill only use the BW and CW, I love my FloraSuns guys. I have some 2ft Red Suns coming from HelloLights tho, we'll see how it goes this time (still out of 54w)


You confused me here. You said Florasuns are Chinese in the first sentence and then said ZooMed is German made quality. Florasuns are Zoomed last I checked.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 18, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Im with LV, you dont need to spend $20 per bulb!!! The only one I will (veeeery reluctantly due to quality issues) is the RedSun and when available the 660. Otherwise, the WavePoint BlueWave and AquaticLife 420/460 both completely cover the full Blue spectrum, and for the Red/flowering spectrum, a combo of one or two CoralWaves for Blue and IR, then the rest FloraSuns (with a RS or two if ya want to spend$ for it)
> 
> LV if you're going for the best absolute cheapo blend, I think you might get abit tighter nugs with (1) FloraSun and (1) 6500k. 6500k's are more efficient PAR-wise since 3000k bloom bulbs put out alot of wasted Yellow/Orange where the 6500k have more PAR Blue, which will reduce stretching vs yellow/orange which causes stretching. They may grow a little slower and it may take a bit longer to switch into full flowering, but I think the Grow/FS may yield more in the end... just my thought on it. It'd be an interesting comparison (... anyone ever heard of someone flowering with 6500k's only?)
> 
> ...


As great as those buds look the point ive been speaking about is proven here. the point of diminishing returns. This is more electricity being pulled here by these bulbs than by 1 quality 600 watt HPS and a 400hps together. Which would probably yield a bit more if placed barebulb in that same grow area 4-5" from the plants.

Im gonna run a couple more grow with the T5's but then probably switching back to HPS and running vertically hung 600's. 4 of them for 12 plants. Rather than 32 T5's over 18 like im doing now in that room. My HPS room is currently 2 1000"s over 12 plants. That consistently gets me 3.5lbs yield for my patients.


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## AltarNation (Apr 18, 2012)

Really depends on what your needs are I guess... I like the quality that I get from T5's and I like not having to finick with heat control as much. I also like the less-threatening nature of a T5 malfunction versus a HID bulb blowing up or whatever. Since I'm growing for personal use, I find the T5's an efficient method overall and the quality of the buds is pretty supreme. To each their own though... if I was growing for patients and I needed weight, I might very well go for something else as well.

Also, if you check the context of Undercover's post, he said "*They're gonna look just like FloraSuns, only they're Chinese made..." *as in, what he is comparing to the flora suns is chinese made... ie, the wavepoints... can see how the context could be confusing though.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 18, 2012)

ahh...my bad


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 18, 2012)

I agree it really depends on what your needs are. I am only growing for personal use as well and I have no intentions of selling any to the dispensaries (which is the only way I would sell any. Gave up street dealing when I was in my early 20's.) T5's are awsome unless you are running a comercial grow. For large crops of 30+ plants I would be using HID lighting. I agree with AN to each their own as long as they get the job done.

Snooch to the Nooch


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## AltarNation (Apr 18, 2012)

Glad you're stickin around js, don't let the haters get ya down


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

I'm still here to stay I'm not in it for the commercial grow just myself even if I was in it for a commercial grow I would still use the par setup as IMO the patients are in it for quality not quantity - but I mite be mistaken for most people who get mmj but my whole lyfe growing up it has been quality over quantity


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## AltarNation (Apr 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I'm still here to stay I'm not in it for the commercial grow just myself even if I was in it for a commercial grow I would still use the par setup as IMO the patients are in it for quality not quantity - but I mite be mistaken for most people who get mmj but my whole lyfe growing up it has been quality over quantity


Well, quality is certainly important to the patients, but quantity tends to be necessary to off-set costs for the grower. Then again, what do I know, I don't grow for others


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 18, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Glad you're stickin around js, don't let the haters get ya down
> 
> View attachment 2127670


Yeah went back and edited my post out. Was having a shitty night that night and I hadnt smoked at all that day so was on edge and someone caught me at a bad time. My childness is over however and I am back and contributing. Thanks AN.

Snoogins


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## 48martin (Apr 18, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> As great as those buds look the point ive been speaking about is proven here. the point of diminishing returns. This is more electricity being pulled here by these bulbs than by 1 quality 600 watt HPS and a 400hps together. Which would probably yield a bit more if placed barebulb in that same grow area 4-5" from the plants.
> 
> Im gonna run a couple more grow with the T5's but then probably switching back to HPS and running vertically hung 600's. 4 of them for 12 plants. Rather than 32 T5's over 18 like im doing now in that room. My HPS room is currently 2 1000"s over 12 plants. That consistently gets me 3.5lbs yield for my patients.


I still cant believe you were managing 32 panels.. Now thats a lot of work. If your pulling 1.5 g/w on the other system, it makes no sense for you to use T5's for that type of yield.(labor intensive) Instead of switching completely to HPS, why dont you use some of your T5's as supplemental lighting. (side lighting, coral waves, red suns)
Since I only run a few at a time, yield is important to me. Selecting pheno's that are short and bushy in nature also helps you maintain an even canapoy. I stay away from sativa dominant or long flowering pheno's. Not worth the stretch per square inch of light available. IMHO

-48


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## 48martin (Apr 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I'm still here to stay I'm not in it for the commercial grow just myself even if I was in it for a commercial grow I would still use the par setup as IMO the patients are in it for quality not quantity - but I mite be mistaken for most people who get mmj but my whole lyfe growing up it has been quality over quantity


The good thing is that you can have both. There is no reason why one can't achieve the 1g/w ratio using T5 lights.


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## falcon223 (Apr 18, 2012)

Well my replacement red suns are still going strong. When Jeff said he would replace them for free I was skeptical, to say the least. 
I had to wait 2 months, but I think they got the problem fixed.
I use a 400 watt CMH, and sup with T5s,. I got plants that are almost 3 feet from the T5s, and the leaves are turning toward the T5s. I hope I get the best of both systems.


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

48martin said:


> The good thing is that you can have both. There is no reason why one can't achieve the 1g/w ratio using T5 lights.


Well idk what my h/w is but when I harvest I'll let everyone know but I can say that it will be more than I originally thought it was going to be


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Well idk what my h/w is but when I harvest I'll let everyone know but I can say that it will be more than I originally thought it was going to be


.6 is pretty reasonable.


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## 48martin (Apr 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Well idk what my h/w is but when I harvest I'll let everyone know but I can say that it will be more than I originally thought it was going to be


Its all about what fits your needs and makes you happy. I use this formula which someone else posted on this site. Its just a guide that helps you look at your progress from grow to grow. 

Grow Room Efficiency Calculator

You need figures for -

Total light wattage
Total flowering time in days
Light cycle hours
Total yield in grams

For example. A 600w HPS system used on a 12/12 hourly cycle in flowering for 60 days which produces 20ozs (560g) of dry bud.

1) Divide total lamp wattage by 1000 to get Kw/h.
600w/1000 = 0.6.

2) Multiply this figure by the hours of the light cycle.
0.6 x 12 = 7.2

3) Multiply this figure by the number of days in flowering.
7.2 x 60 = 432

4) Now divide the gram yield figure by the kilowatt figure.
560g / 432 = 1.29. That's 1.29g per K/w 

Experienced growers should be shooting for a GE (Garden Efficiency) rating of 1.0, so anything over 1.0 is very good going.


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## 48martin (Apr 18, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> .6 is pretty reasonable.


Its very reasonable but for those of us that only can run a few panels because of space and plant limits, it is important to maximize the growth in any possible way. 

-48


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

I'll be sure to try and figure it out when I get my yeild in a few weeks to see what I got 

And I understand that when you have plant and space limits you gotta do what you can 

I'm restricted to a 4/2 tent its good for about 2 big plants 3 medium plants or if you can ide say anywhere from 6-8 plant sog or scrog


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## AltarNation (Apr 18, 2012)

Happy page 400 everyone. 

I am itching to harvest... this is when the bug starts biting. I can't wait to run my new seeds, they have 8 week periods on the indicas. Looking forward to the shorter flowering time.


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

Ya I have 1 indica dom and she is pushing out trics way faster than the sativa dom but I'm more interested in the sativa as they was the ones I realy wanted to pop I like the short time on the indica strains but I prefer the taste of sativa its all crazy in my tent 1 indica dom 1 sativa dom and 1 mix that has indica and sativa leaves


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## AltarNation (Apr 18, 2012)

Haha.. hear that. I just (Finally) got my airpots transplanted to the new bigger airpots. Also threw my extra mommy into a 5 gal smart pot. They're all really hurting for space-sharing in my veg chamber with just a 4-bulb... gonna do a rotating pattern for now so they can share the one sidelight... just gotta wait for these flowering babies to finish out and then they all go in the flowering tent... getting the itch to buy more fixtures now... money money money money... I spend too much fuckin money on this project... heh.


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

Ya I hear that I had to space all my buying out I could do it all at once but I'm sad cuz I'm moving so I'm gonna have down time mite give me time to buy a few things I need like a carbon filter 

I'm gonna hate the new place when we move won't be able to grow as easily not knowing the area but there is a lake in the backyard of the houses so I'm gonna buy a rowboat to travel the lake and find a good spot in some woods away from all the houses good news is I love nature so finding a good secluded place won't be had - military survival training comes in handy when trying to hide in the woods from everything -


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## kpmarine (Apr 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Ya I hear that I had to space all my buying out I could do it all at once but I'm sad cuz I'm moving so I'm gonna have down time mite give me time to buy a few things I need like a carbon filter
> 
> I'm gonna hate the new place when we move won't be able to grow as easily not knowing the area but there is a lake in the backyard of the houses so I'm gonna buy a rowboat to travel the lake and find a good spot in some woods away from all the houses good news is I love nature so finding a good secluded place won't be had - military survival training comes in handy when trying to hide in the woods from everything -


Beware of large streams and larger bodies of standing water. That's where they hunt for grows. I don't have any guerrilla experience though. That may not even be an issue where you're going.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 18, 2012)

My main issue from the very start was the heat (Its been above 90 all week, and my grow is upstairs/south facing...) I started with a 400wHPS in a cool tube and I was able to get the tube right down onto the tops and got a good yield, but in the dead of winter the ambient temps in the room were approaching 90. I was pulling air from my house through the room and exhausing at 800cfm! I had to keep my entire house below 60 to be able to cool the room down to 73 and inside my 6hx6wx3d box is was 87. But I could run 864w of T5 and the box was only 79 with the other variables the same. Thats why I went to T5 exclusive... that and the fact that with equal amounts of wattage, the T5 yeilds were sooooo much stickier! 



Lucius Vorenus said:


> ...This is more electricity being pulled here by these bulbs than by 1 quality 600 watt HPS and a 400hps together. Which would probably yield a bit more if placed barebulb in that same grow area 4-5" from the plants.


Im running 1054w, some digital HID ballasts actually draw more than what they're rated at so for our purposes Ill say Im equal to a 600+400... but in my small space theres no way I could squeeze both of them into my hx6wx3d box at 4-5" above tops and still manage the heat... absolutely utterly impossible... if they were in cool tubes I could put them at that distance but I would hardly get any coverage beyond 1-2 plants per bulb, and I could never cool my room down even with the AC I have now. For small/medium sized personal grows, Im gonna say T5's are tits. Commercial Grows with wide open growing spaces with large AC's can grow for yield with monster HID's but wont ever get that connoisseur grade sticky like flypaper shit that people tell their friends about. 
All variables the same (nutes, environment, medium/ph etc) feed one of your favorite strain 1000w of HID for 8 weeks and another 1000w of T5 PAR for 8 weeks, you may get a larger yield from the HID but the better resulting flavor and smell and resin production and overall bag-appeal from the PAR crop may be worth more to the small time personal grower or medical patient. I got some experience growing using both and became very educated on the subject and my HPS is sitting in the corner now.


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## pr0fesseur (Apr 18, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> My main issue from the very start was the heat (Its been above 90 all week, and my grow is upstairs/south facing...) I started with a 400wHPS in a cool tube and I was able to get the tube right down onto the tops and got a good yield, but in the dead of winter the ambient temps in the room were approaching 90. I was pulling air from my house through the room and exhausing at 800cfm! I had to keep my entire house below 60 to be able to cool the room down to 73 and inside my 6hx6wx3d box is was 87. But I could run 864w of T5 and the box was only 79 with the other variables the same. Thats why I went to T5 exclusive... that and the fact that with equal amounts of wattage, the T5 yeilds were sooooo much stickier!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


+LIKE
EDIT: a 16bulb badboy consumes 864W on a single fixture.. it fits in a 4x4 area.
sounds like a winner!


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## infinitalus (Apr 18, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> My main issue from the very start was the heat ... I started with a 400wHPS in a cool tube and I was able to get the tube right down onto the tops and got a good yield, but ... I was pulling air from my house through the room ... I had to keep my entire house below 65 to be able to cool the room down to 73 and inside my closet was 85-90. But I could run 432w of T5 + 108w of T8 and the closet went to 78-82. Thats why I went to fluorescent exclusive ...
> 
> 
> 
> ... Im gonna say T5's are tits. Commercial Grows with wide open growing spaces with large AC's can grow for yield with monster HID's but wont ever get that connoisseur grade sticky like flypaper shit that people tell their friends about ... I sold my HPS to buy more T5 equipment.


Edited to invoke my own circumstances, but UCC you really hit the nail on the head. Far too much electricity being wasted on heat production even with premium hortilux lamps which is both harmful and useless even with more than adequate ventilation. Forget about using CO2, it will be wasted being pumped out of the room. I only got bud from my first and only run with HID lamps which was decent at best.

Personally, Ive only ever had sticky stuff like that ONCE and it was the best I have ever had in my entire life. The price reflected as much and I would gladly pay it again for the value it brings, its rarity and exclusiveness. In my region, it is RARE to see something of that calibur even at dispensaries. To me, its the mystical unicorn that I am aiming to find and continue to have available for myself and my patients. I am willing to spend the extra in equipment cost and maintenance to get the best medicine.

EDIT: Was able to give rep again! +1 UCC


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## pedro420 (Apr 18, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Beware of large streams and larger bodies of standing water. That's where they hunt for grows. I don't have any guerrilla experience though. That may not even be an issue where you're going.



Well at first to do a test run I have 2 auto seeds don't get very tall and flower fast I accualyy haven't been on the lake yet but I don't think cops would be interested its mainly older people that use there house on the lake as a vacation home for winter months in outher states - good thing about most areas in FL that's mainly what they are 

But the security of the grow well that's where the military training comes in I know the places they would look for so I can go places they wouldn't think of and me being only 21 I can do some things the older cops can't or might not want to


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## kpmarine (Apr 18, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Well at first to do a test run I have 2 auto seeds don't get very tall and flower fast I accualyy haven't been on the lake yet but I don't think cops would be interested its mainly older people that use there house on the lake as a vacation home for winter months in outher states - good thing about most areas in FL that's mainly what they are
> 
> But the security of the grow well that's where the military training comes in I know the places they would look for so I can go places they wouldn't think of and me being only 21 I can do some things the older cops can't or might not want to


Yeah, wish I had "tactically acquired" some cammie net from supply before I got out.


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## pedro420 (Apr 19, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Yeah, wish I had "tactically acquired" some cammie net from supply before I got out.


That would be perfect for an outdoor cover


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## kpmarine (Apr 19, 2012)

You can buy it, but it's always expensive from what I've seen. My only concern is that they do provide a good bit of shade.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 19, 2012)

though i would bring my own brand of hateraide to the table. i agree with you guys to an extent, but i have been pulling DANK! with HID for a long time not to say T5 doesnt make quality, but the "best" quality i have ever seen has been grown under HID and LED combos, but im sure you could gat the same results using any light if you know what you doing with it well her an update did some remodeling of my room switched VEG with my flower and moved my inside my TENT around took the table out added a shelf moved my filter and my temps and RH are PERFECT! plus i can fit 7 more plants into flower! 


tubes are only 3 in from tops sometimes less
nice lokking V canopy som plants got vegged to long
bushy mothers
this tall mfr made me have to work all night.. but the room looks even better than b4 i didnt think that was possible
 PURPLE unkown strain bag seed, 1 word DANK!


----------



## falcon223 (Apr 19, 2012)

You got kept the bugs , and the lake monster from getting your crop. And then there is always undercovercop, he might be around your area. The other thing is oldpeople , they are so nosy, nothing to do all day but snup around. And some of us old farts where in the war, and can sneak up on deer. Hell i startled a moos when I was in ,Germany, it scared me more then I scared him.


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## pedro420 (Apr 19, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> You got kept the bugs , and the lake monster from getting your crop. And then there is always undercovercop, he might be around your area. The other thing is oldpeople , they are so nosy, nothing to do all day but snup around. And some of us old farts where in the war, and can sneak up on deer. Hell i startled a moos when I was in ,Germany, it scared me more then I scared him.


Well on one side they state only there in the winter time the outher side he seems nice but I'll know more after I do my snooping on them


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## falcon223 (Apr 19, 2012)

I think undercovercrop, may be in Florida, so you know he will smoke your stuff, and then do a smoke report. I wouldn't trust him.


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## pedro420 (Apr 19, 2012)

I like criticism on my crop lol that's why I was a supplier for my whole county when I was growing up had different strains for different levels of customers the more I trusted you the better quality you could get 

It was all gravy to I couldn't get in trouble for shyt nobody knew my real name unless you was close to me I had a bunch of haters try and turn me in but the cops never could do anything because they always gave the cops a different name than the name on my I'd so they couldn't prove it was me


----------



## hyroot (Apr 19, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I like criticism on my crop lol that's why I was a supplier for my whole county when I was growing up had different strains for different levels of customers the more I trusted you the better quality you could get
> 
> It was all gravy to I couldn't get in trouble for shyt nobody knew my real name unless you was close to me I had a bunch of haters try and turn me in but the cops never could do anything because they always gave the cops a different name than the name on my I'd so they couldn't prove it was me






Are you * Keyser Söze* ?!


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 19, 2012)

that sounds like a really good movie got a link to watch that?, ill reference.


----------



## infinitalus (Apr 19, 2012)

The Usual Suspects. Kevin Spacey is an amazing actor, one of my favorites.


----------



## infinitalus (Apr 19, 2012)

Day 16 under T5. My UVB lights came in: One was broken and the one that was intact was an incorrect fit. Pretty irritating that the product dimensions listed on amazon were of the PACKAGE, not of the lamp. No matter, Im returning them for a refund and will hit up local pet stores tomorrow to see if they have any of the R'zilla T5's in stock before ordering again.

Placed an order for 2 of the exhale CO2 generator almost two weeks ago and have yet to get them. At this point, boost buddy is the way to go. Exhale customer service has gone down. By the time it gets here, the mycelium will already be developing. The boost buddy only had tiny spots of white when they got here. They arent amazon prime supported for 2 day shipping, but theyre $30/ea shipped and got here in 4 business days. The two that are in there have been making notable differences. With the other two when they finally get here, the differences will be substantial. Combined with UVB.. these buds are gonna start getting sticky soon.

Im venting 4x a day @ 15min/ea for humidity reasons. Heat hasnt been so bad, hottest its been was 87 in there but the CO2 is keeping them happy.

Bud porn


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 19, 2012)

Save your money on the Exhale. Worthless.


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 19, 2012)

Happy 420!!!!
"first"-quote from Tosh.0-420


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## infinitalus (Apr 19, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Save your money on the Exhale. Worthless.


I used two in a 6x4x10 space and it increased growth a LOT. Problem is last time they got to my house quickly and this time they havent. Boostbuddy is essentially the same product, slightly cheaper, and gets here faster. Not as accurate as a CO2 tank but just as effective and sooooo much easier to maintain then a 20 or 50lb tank. Having to lug that thing to the store once or twice a grow to refill it may also be inconvenient with my work schedule.

People say T5s are ludicrous and swear by MH/HPS.

People say CO2 methods are ludicrous and swear by tanks.

Shrug.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 19, 2012)

they are ludacris if i run out of co2 my fans are so strong i hardly notice the difference(other than the temps) plus my plants are right next to the water heater im sure if i turn my big filter on 24/7 od get some of that co2.
6x4x10= 240 cft a 20 lb tank should last you around 3months if you fill the room 4x a day roughly. i vent b4 i fill i dont really believe in the whole "sealed" room thing. maybe at the most all 12 hours of lights on but i couldnt keep my room sealed all night too thats how you get mold. but i love my tanks fill mine up once every 5 months inject 5x a day.


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## infinitalus (Apr 20, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> they are ludacris if i run out of co2 my fans are so strong i hardly notice the difference(other than the temps) plus my plants are right next to the water heater im sure if i turn my big filter on 24/7 od get some of that co2.
> 6x4x10= 240 cft a 20 lb tank should last you around 3months if you fill the room 4x a day roughly. i vent b4 i fill i dont really believe in the whole "sealed" room thing. maybe at the most all 12 hours of lights on but i couldnt keep my room sealed all night too thats how you get mold. but i love my tanks fill mine up once every 5 months inject 5x a day.


The ones I got worked about 12 weeks before they were exhausted and theyre always 'on'. To me, it is well worth not having to lug a tank around. I get double the amount recommended to make sure the PPMs are up there. I do notice that when I first open the hut at night and the smell wafts right into my face that I get an acute but mild head rush from increased CO2 concentration.

I counted 15 top colas at 3'8" for a single plant, middle right under the Grosite, and its going to have 30-50 microwatts of UVB hovering nearby most likely tomorrow night. Guesstimates for yield?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

well whatever works! and im a terrible at guessing yeild my one plant(i guessed 2oz) only yielded an oz. as for lugging a tank, "..and its a great way to stay in shape!"


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

Dropped 19 seeds in water today. 4/20 shall be the start of my search for good genetics!


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Dropped 19 seeds in water today. 4/20 shall be the start of my search for good genetics!


Yeah yeah! I'm gonna start my new genetics today too! Why the hell not! haha.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

i just put 6 into flower so i could write 420 on the tags and i just dropped 10? of my seeds(bluecheese x mexicanskunk and WW adn some bag seeds from some super skunk) and cut 10 clones


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## AltarNation (Apr 20, 2012)

Sweet... I might harvest one of my three flowerers today, depending on how it's lookin'. Honestly I'll probably give it another week, haha. I always jump the shark... trying so hard not to harvest too early. haha.

I've got 6 plants in veg that are itching to move into flower... but they need a bit longer to get their root structures into the new soil in their new airpots anyway so I really can't rush things now...


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

just give em a week im supposed to wait a week too but their looking ready, i think im just looking for excuses to do weed related things on 420


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 20, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> just give em a week im supposed to wait a week too but their looking ready, i think im just looking for excuses to do weed related things on 420


Same here bro, LOL. I will settle for watering and germinating some seeds  Thinking about doing 3 kolossus and 1 ea. of the three indica strains I got... I don't want to do TOO many but I didn't get feminized seeds so I dont want to do too few either...


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

So I'm popping Afghan Kush, Big Durban poison, and Jupiter Kush. At least, that's what these 8 year old tags labels say. lol


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## AltarNation (Apr 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> So I'm popping Afghan Kush, Big Durban poison, and Jupiter Kush. At least, that's what these 8 year old tags labels say. lol


Woot woot, happy birthday to so many plants! haha


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

that s how im feeling about my seeds but im kinda male hunting so i dont care if theres a male but i want some fems too.

for real guys i will send you a chamber(the tupperware male growing chamber with x2 13w 2700k bulbs)\ to grow your males in and pay for the 2 months of elec it took to flower him. just send me thier pollen, and a very detailde doc. of how htey grew smelled looked ect. some pics would be nice too and maybe a leaf to smell but for real if you guys don't want males just cut a piece of the stem and send it to me i will culture and grow it again. grow all your males like females even if you know what they are. this will let you know more of feminine qualitys of your male giving you some insight into your future strains


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> that s how im feeling about my seeds but im kinda male hunting so i dont care if theres a male but i want some fems too.
> 
> for real guys i will send you a chamber(the tupperware male growing chamber with x2 13w 2700k bulbs)\ to grow your males in and pay for the 2 months of elec it took to flower him. just send me thier pollen, and a very detailde doc. of how htey grew smelled looked ect. some pics would be nice too and maybe a leaf to smell but for real if you guys don't want males just cut a piece of the stem and send it to me i will culture and grow it again. grow all your males like females even if you know what they are. this will let you know more of feminine qualitys of your male giving you some insight into your future strains


I've got a 2'x1'x2.5' CFL cabinet just for male cuttings. Once I actually get some males anyways. Out of 19 un-femmed seeds, I'd say my chances are good.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

glad to hear it hear! nothing beats being reproductive!


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> glad to hear it hear! nothing beats being reproductive!


[video=youtube_share;bcYppAs6ZdI]http://youtu.be/bcYppAs6ZdI[/video]


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## pedro420 (Apr 20, 2012)

Well I just thought ide throw out some rep to discount hydro 

From Cali to Florida in 2 days I didn't even pay extra It was suposta be 5-6 days ground shipping well I checked the tracking number today to see how far it made it in 2 days and turns out 2 hours later FedEx guy was at my house that's what's up in my book they definatly have more of my buisness coming there way especially if them prices stay low like they are now


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## hyroot (Apr 20, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Well I just thought ide throw out some rep to discount hydro
> 
> From Cali to Florida in 2 days I didn't even pay extra It was suposta be 5-6 days ground shipping well I checked the tracking number today to see how far it made it in 2 days and turns out 2 hours later FedEx guy was at my house that's what's up in my book they definatly have more of my buisness coming there way especially if them prices stay low like they are now


Thats my fav shop. Bought my first light there over 10 years ago. Been shopping there ever since


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

Don't think I've checked them out before. I'll have to do that.


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## pedro420 (Apr 20, 2012)

Ya they have realy good deals on almost everything 

If I ever have a few grand to blow I'm going to get one of the iponic 600 environment controllers they look like the shyt all electronic all touchscreen has like 8 outlets withindividual programmable timers send alerts to phone email 

Man the things I wish I could afford to buy


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

audino aurdino? is a better system and much cheaper.


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## AltarNation (Apr 20, 2012)

pedro, does the box say "discount hydro" on the return? LOL. I'm always slapping my forehead when the fedex guy drops me off a box and it's like "ROGUE HYDROPONICS" across the top of the label...


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> pedro, does the box say "discount hydro" on the return? LOL. I'm always slapping my forehead when the fedex guy drops me off a box and it's like "ROGUE HYDROPONICS" across the top of the label...


Just like the Quantam boxes. With their giant plant growing advert on them. Might as well stencil "This dude is growing indoors" on some of these packages. Though to be fair, indoor gardening does have a bit of a following in general.


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## pedro420 (Apr 20, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> pedro, does the box say "discount hydro" on the return? LOL. I'm always slapping my forehead when the fedex guy drops me off a box and it's like "ROGUE HYDROPONICS" across the top of the label...



All the box has on it is my address name it doesn't say nething about dh only thing besides my info is the FedEx information 

But I know what you mean I got my tent from virtual sun hydro and it was rite on the box in big letters I was like wtf it said discrete how is putting VIRTALSUN HYDROPONICS descrete


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## pedro420 (Apr 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Just like the Quantam boxes. With their giant plant growing advert on them. Might as well stencil "This dude is growing indoors" on some of these packages. Though to be fair, indoor gardening does have a bit of a following in general.


Ya I don't realy like when they put there ads and name on the boxes 

But I was ok with the htg boxes because they just said htg supply on them and if you look at the name its - high tech gardening supplies - to me that's way different than outing something hydro or something like that


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

I think about 90% of our paranoia is due to the fact we KNOW what we're doing though. Honestly if I didn't grow, a guy walking by with a bunch of 5 gal buckets, a water pump, and a bunch of black tubing wouldn't raise a red flag. He just looks like someone buying a bunch of project stuff to the layman.


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## pedro420 (Apr 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I think about 90% of our paranoia is due to the fact we KNOW what we're doing though. Honestly if I didn't grow, a guy walking by with a bunch of 5 gal buckets, a water pump, and a bunch of black tubing wouldn't raise a red flag. He just looks like someone buying a bunch of project stuff to the layman.



I would completely agree with that but in my area I got to be paranoid it saved my ass but once I move to the new house I could care less my neibors will only be home in Oct through Feb I'll just make big orders when they are back at there homes and not on vacation from the cold that's one big plus about most areas in Florida


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## JayBio420 (Apr 20, 2012)

Just wanted to provide input on the Sunblaster brand of horticultural T5. I'm really liking mine, good for all my herbs and veggies I'm starting early. My temp probe puts them at 90F about a half inch away frOm the bare bulb. My 3' is 3624 lumens, 39 watts and 6400k temp. My special plants are eating up the rays! Nine nodes @8" tall keeping tubes 1-2.5 " away. I got mine from he local nursery. I'm stoked to have six of these and 4 23w cfl added for bloOm. Will write a thread with pics when the deeds are done. T5ho baby. Happy 420 you guys this thread is sick!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 20, 2012)

Day 40

[video=youtube;8GT0KRUxDQE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GT0KRUxDQE[/video]


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## kpmarine (Apr 20, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I would completely agree with that but in my area I got to be paranoid it saved my ass but once I move to the new house I could care less my neibors will only be home in Oct through Feb I'll just make big orders when they are back at there homes and not on vacation from the cold that's one big plus about most areas in Florida


Admittedly, if you start making a trend of buying grow stuff. Someone will take notice if you're not a bit subtle.


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## pedro420 (Apr 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Admittedly, if you start making a trend of buying grow stuff. Someone will take notice if you're not a bit subtle.


Yes I take caution when I have to order something big good thing about useing soil and grow bags just tell em soils for the garden that could mean nething lol and I usually only order a few things as I need them so the boxes aren't big and a extra step I take is if I do throws box away I remove the label so incase someone goes threw my trash they don't see nething but a brown box that could be for nething


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

JayBio420 said:


> Just wanted to provide input on the Sunblaster brand of horticultural T5. I'm really liking mine, good for all my herbs and veggies I'm starting early. My temp probe puts them at 90F about a half inch away frOm the bare bulb. My 3' is 3624 lumens, 39 watts and 6400k temp. My special plants are eating up the rays! Nine nodes @8" tall keeping tubes 1-2.5 " away. I got mine from he local nursery. I'm stoked to have six of these and 4 23w cfl added for bloOm. Will write a thread with pics when the deeds are done. T5ho baby. Happy 420 you guys this thread is sick!



im sure they work and good at that. bu their spectrum is probably that of your average t5ho 6500k light bulb. to be honest 6.5k is a good spectrum but its only a choice among many bulbs some are better than others. i would use a 6.5K in a combo but not alone. florasun 5000k is much better spectrum with good red spike(i now see what your saying uc, doing mad research on these Hid spectrums, mol rating, and NM peaks, now that this t5 got me thinking)

another better example is coralife 6.7k probably the best bulb in veg in combo with the florasuns. but the brand doesn't matter, its the results. but im put off by sunblaster by the fact they dont provide an accurate chart, hell even the shitty HID bulb builders provide charts.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Admittedly, if you start making a trend of buying grow stuff. Someone will take notice if you're not a bit subtle.


too true. especially me. i pretty much have to get all my stuff in person and DIY out of paranoia, and anything i need have shipped it has to be shipped elsewhere and i will pick it up myself.

thats really the only reason i dont make the jump to hydro... i can just pack my shit up and go!


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## JayBio420 (Apr 20, 2012)

Well you can study charts for weeks, but I'm offering experience via preliminary results. As I try out my setup I will monitor and analyze. These babies are so bushy! Not trying to say Sunblaster are premium, just that they are rocking the house for the various plants I'm growing. I dont discount them based on their light "chart". I have no doubt my plants at 4 weeks look way bushier the several HID examples around here! Best of luck to all of you and mother nature and Mary Jane be with ya!

Oh PS. The Sunblaster chart does look hyperinflated, but I heRd these chRts are out of wack and more for internal comparison between the comPanies bulbs.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 20, 2012)

Happy 420 to one and all!!!
[video=youtube_share;RY8jywTuyaw]http://youtu.be/RY8jywTuyaw[/video]


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 20, 2012)

Posted some par video on last page


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## AltarNation (Apr 21, 2012)

lol I never did get my seeds germinated yesterday. I suppose I am lucky I got my watering done.


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## AltarNation (Apr 21, 2012)

JayBio420 said:


> Well you can study charts for weeks, but I'm offering experience via preliminary results. As I try out my setup I will monitor and analyze. These babies are so bushy! Not trying to say Sunblaster are premium, just that they are rocking the house for the various plants I'm growing. I dont discount them based on their light "chart". I have no doubt my plants at 4 weeks look way bushier the several HID examples around here! Best of luck to all of you and mother nature and Mary Jane be with ya!
> 
> Oh PS. The Sunblaster chart does look hyperinflated, but I heRd these chRts are out of wack and more for internal comparison between the comPanies bulbs.


lol, we have done a lot more than study charts for weeks man. Several of us have multiple par grows under our belts at this point. I am finishing my second. Read through the thread before you mock us... we provide the charts as evidence, but that doesn't mean we don't have experience. Best of luck with your 6500ks.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 21, 2012)

Have any of y'all wall-mounted your T5's? Do they have to hang? I now the ballast box is on the top so I am scared about trapping heat back there, but I kind of want to get it right up against a wall. Don't want to risk burning out the ballasts though, so I'll probably try to space it out at least a few inches... just wondering if anyone has tried putting one up against a solid surface, any problems?


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 21, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> lol, we have done a lot more than study charts for weeks man. Several of us have multiple par grows under our belts at this point. I am finishing my second. Read through the thread before you mock us... we provide the charts as evidence, but that doesn't mean we don't have experience. Best of luck with your 6500ks.


i dont even know why he bothered...


anyways this is gonna be new line up of lighting for flower here soon

4 bulb t5, x2 coral wave enhancer, x2 28w zilla 5.0, 400w phillips master color CMH, 400w Hortlux HPS


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## polyarcturus (Apr 21, 2012)

im undecided on the zilla or just getting x2 6.7k coralife. i may get the coral life and get x2 reptisun 10.0 40w t12 or the 36w t8 in addition


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 21, 2012)

AN, I currently have 2 2ft panels and one four footer all hanging vertically against walls with no air gap, no problems, just have decent general ventilation and youre golden


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## AltarNation (Apr 21, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> AN, I currently have 2 2ft panels and one four footer all hanging vertically against walls with no air gap, no problems, just have decent general ventilation and youre golden


Cool, good to know... that buys me some extra space in my veg chamber for now... though if the flowers don't finish soon my veg chamber's going to explode anyway, haha.


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 21, 2012)

LOL @ all you guys talkin about charts and graphs while the others of us are just growin buds and trying to tell you how.

Just LOL


----------



## polyarcturus (Apr 21, 2012)

sunblaster might have just got their brand killed by some random dude talking about spectrum. lol


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## kpmarine (Apr 21, 2012)

Did anyone else have 4/20 bring them an awesome weather change? The only downside is that now my house is getting warmer.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 21, 2012)

no weather got worse had to bring veggie in i was pissed put them out on 420 like oh what a wonderful day, checked the news 40 degree night and raining the next day


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 21, 2012)

Jumped from the 50's to 80 overnight here. It's great for outdoor, means that I need to get the swamp cooler up and running for the indoor though. Don't want to build a new airbox in the attic so we can cool the rooms though...


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## hyroot (Apr 21, 2012)

Hot hot hot here. Have to even run a/c at night. in the 90's in the day. High 70's at night.


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## AltarNation (Apr 21, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> LOL @ all you guys talkin about charts and graphs while the others of us are just growin buds and trying to tell you how.
> 
> Just LOL


Who's this directed at Lucius? LoL. I don't see anyone really talkin charts and graphs that doesn't also grow some dank buds of proof.. but maybe I'm missing something...


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## AltarNation (Apr 21, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Hot hot hot here. Have to even run a/c at night. in the 90's in the day. High 70's at night.


Not here, we're still getting some nice cool weather. it's supposed to rain for the next week... good for indoor temps, not so good for my seratonin levels.


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## JayBio420 (Apr 21, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> lol, we have done a lot more than study charts for weeks man. Several of us have multiple par grows under our belts at this point. I am finishing my second. Read through the thread before you mock us... we provide the charts as evidence, but that doesn't mean we don't have experience. Best of luck with your 6500ks.


What part of that was mocking you bud? It's all good, we are on the same team!


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 21, 2012)

JayBio420 said:


> What part of that was mocking you bud? It's all good, we are on the same team!


Sorry, I must have misunderstood.


----------



## organicbynature (Apr 21, 2012)

Hey all!

I thought I'd pop back in and show some shots from my first all-T5 grow. I'm glad to see everyone getting such good use out of the Flora Suns. This thread has come a long way from freaking out over a little green spike. 

I'm not on here very often but I've seen a lot of really impressive pictures in recent months. Kudos! Here are my girls at 43 days of 12/12...






This is a quick, fill-in crop for me, to keep things perpetual. The 4 Northern Lights x Haze (mine are an indica expression, growth-wise) got 19 days of veg and were topped, and the White Widow just 17 days. The NLxHaze are showing a Potassium deficiency, I believe, that I have not been able to correct, but are also super-icey. The White Widow (which goes about 70 days) is a beauty...












I prefer at this point to flower bigger plants without a bunch of training, and will probably focus more on LED lighting for that. I would like to start SCROGing with some strains, however, and will definitely come back to T5s for that purpose.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 21, 2012)

Looks great Organic. What bulbs and nutes you runnin?


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 22, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> LOL @ all you guys talkin about charts and graphs while the others of us are just growin buds and trying to tell you how.
> 
> Just LOL


Some of us are more interested in learning the principles and perfecting techniques through first hand experience, than being told how to do anything

Don't get upset cuz people aren't agreeing with your "PAR light isn't worth it" and "cheap grow/bloom bulbs are better" arguments, when most of us have already gone that route and have moved on to more advanced lighting methods... Grow/bloom = amature... PAR = advanced. 

Lol all you want, grow your buds and contribute when you have something constructive, but dont talk down to those who are having discussions that are in line with the general theme of the thread.


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## PetFlora (Apr 22, 2012)

*UCC *PAR ain't all that. It fails to reveal the importance of 500-600nms, which ideally is ~ 25% in both veg and flower. The tweak areas are ~ 380-450 & ~ 630- 740. As soon as I replaced "PAR" bulbs with 2 Quantum Grows the veging plants have exploded in all 3 dimensions


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## AltarNation (Apr 22, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *UCC *PAR ain't all that. It fails to reveal the importance of 500-600nms, which ideally is ~ 25% in both veg and flower. The tweak areas are ~ 380-450 & ~ 630- 740. As soon as I replaced "PAR" bulbs with 2 Quantum Grows the veging plants have exploded in all 3 dimensions


I'll pop a couple grows into my veg fixture just to humor y'allz, heh. I am curious, and open minded about it.


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## organicbynature (Apr 22, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Looks great Organic. What bulbs and nutes you runnin?


Here's the bulbs...

Flora Sun; Coral Wave; Flora Sun; 6400k; Red Sun; Flora Sun; Coral Wave; Flora Sun
The 6400k wasn't my first choice, but it's what I had available.

No nutes. Just an organic soil mix with periodic Kelp/Alfalfa teas. I'd adjust the mix to up the K, but this was actually a one time mix and I went in a different direction.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 22, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Some of us are more interested in learning the principles and perfecting techniques through first hand experience, than being told how to do anything
> 
> Don't get upset cuz people aren't agreeing with your "PAR light isn't worth it" and "cheap grow/bloom bulbs are better" arguments, when most of us have already gone that route and have moved on to more advanced lighting methods... Grow/bloom = amature... PAR = advanced.
> 
> Lol all you want, grow your buds and contribute when you have something constructive, but dont talk down to those who are having discussions that are in line with the general theme of the thread.


Are you dumb? Serious question because I don't want to argue with you if you are.

I run 2 "PAR" setups next to a Bloom with Flora Suns setup and im telling you the Bloom and Florasuns run away with it. The most important thing is getting lumens close to your plant and in high quantities. You guys are just talking nonsense if you think its anything more than that.

Spend a few hundred dollars on Fijis and Red Suns, all I was trying to do is save you fools some money.


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## AltarNation (Apr 22, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Are you dumb? Serious question because I don't want to argue with you if you are.


Obviously not a serious question... in fact, way to show your true colors bro. None of us have resorted to personalisms, and you've gone and called us fools and ask fecetious questions like the above. In my book that is a lot dumber than having differing opinions based on experiences. Jesus.

Nice attitude. Really. Serious compliment.

Pfft.

P.S. Nice growing, and your input is valuable. It's too bad you taint it with your bad attitude. Just unsubbed your thread... not because I don't think you are contributing valuable information, but because I like to associate with people who respect their peers.


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## MurshDawg (Apr 22, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Are you dumb? Serious question because I don't want to argue with you if you are.
> 
> I run 2 "PAR" setups next to a Bloom with Flora Suns setup and im telling you the Bloom and Florasuns run away with it. The most important thing is getting lumens close to your plant and in high quantities. You guys are just talking nonsense if you think its anything more than that.
> 
> Spend a few hundred dollars on Fijis and Red Suns, all I was trying to do is save you fools some money.


You got some good bud porn to post with your awesome new findings, Luscius?


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## kpmarine (Apr 22, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Are you dumb? Serious question because I don't want to argue with you if you are.
> 
> I run 2 "PAR" setups next to a Bloom with Flora Suns setup and im telling you the Bloom and Florasuns run away with it. The most important thing is getting lumens close to your plant and in high quantities. You guys are just talking nonsense if you think its anything more than that.
> 
> Spend a few hundred dollars on Fijis and Red Suns, all I was trying to do is save you fools some money.


I wouldn't mind a side by side comparison, seeing as you're already doing one essentially. People respond to you alot better if you're not condescending. Opening with *"Are you dumb?*", followed by "*You guys are just talking nonsense", and "**you fools*", is probably not the best way to make a point. Your message would not have changed one bit if you removed the insults, and would have caused alot less drama.


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 22, 2012)

Lol yeah dude, seriously I guess I am dumb then cuz I don't think its all about getting massive amounts of lumens onto the plants, if I subscribed to that theory I would have stuck to HID only...

I dont think of the "PAR technique" as using red/blue only, I take it to mean an optimized spectrum customized by the user instead of just pointing an HID light blaster at them and force feeding them with a less then perfect spectrum. 

I see others picked up on what originally got my attention also, no one likes to be "told"things then called a fool, you could have a fuckin degree in weedology, but you bring it with a negative attitude and you'll miss most of your audience (and lose some also)


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 22, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> Lol yeah dude, seriously I guess I am dumb then cuz I don't think its all about getting massive amounts of lumens onto the plants, if I subscribed to that theory I would have stuck to HID only...
> 
> I dont think of the "PAR technique" as using red/blue only, I take it to mean an optimized spectrum customized by the user instead of just pointing an HID light blaster at them and force feeding them with a less then perfect spectrum.
> 
> I see others picked up on what originally got my attention also, no one likes to be "told"things then called a fool, you could have a fuckin degree in weedology, but you bring it with a negative attitude and you'll miss most of your audience (and lose some also)



Well said, want my like button back!


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 22, 2012)

MurshDawg said:


> You got some good bud porn to post with your awesome new findings, Luscius?


Yea man. It's all in my journal and threads I have currently. I guess I was kinda lookin for a reason to stop following this one anyway. It frustrates the shit out of me and goes way too of course.

Heres one: https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journals/522323-t5-grow-18-plants-under.html


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## infinitalus (Apr 22, 2012)

Some people are born assholes, others evolve into that status. Others are even worse; the insufferable holier-than-thou/know-it-all borderline narcissists. Ive gone through almost this entire thread (4000+ posts) and learned a lot about light and how it affects photosynthesis but I hardly know everything. The point of any forum is to spread knowledge among like-minded people, and through 4000+ posts on a single topic things are bound to go astray here and there. As in real life, discussion often goes off topic. Some people have more patience than others for newbs (to this thread or even growing in general). Despite his current condescending attitude, he has helped and I merit him that much. 

Some things Ive missed while reading through the thread; like the part where flora suns are where its at for a legit 660nm band and Coral Wave for the part where IR really boosts the production of flowering hormones. Also, the aqualife 420/460 completely covers the blue spectrum in a single lamp instead of having to pay more for SuperActinics and the 454s from UVL. Im glad I found this out now since I will be looking at buying about 2 dozen blue lamps soon for veg.

The internet is an amazing tool but by default it has its own limitations and the same can be said for books. Neither one will ever COMPLETELY teach you how to do something whether its growing, fixing a car, fishing, etc since its all user specific looking for certain things related to their needs. Cost might be a factor. Time might be a factor. Both are for me. For the issue of lighting, heat was a real problem. Im getting better and more effective light, less heat, and over all a better product. This is still a huge learning curve for some people, including myself.

For my own case, this specific endeavor involves so many different aspects and Im soaking up a lot of information all at once when Im already working two jobs. Two jobs plus time spent for research, then time spent on gardening work has been over 90 hours a week, every week for the past three months. I have a girlfriend on top of that. I sleep 5-7 hours a day bro. If anyone should have no patience, it should be me. Hit the peace pipe and remind yourself that we are here to spread knowledge and hopefully make friends.

If anyone feels like they are too advanced for the rest of us, feel free to look somewhere else for information since you already know everything you need to about this topic and best of luck to you.


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## hyroot (Apr 22, 2012)

Bow chicka wa wa

Bubba kush, hizzle drying. Still need to boil and press the hizzle


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## infinitalus (Apr 22, 2012)

The picture on the left looks like a pile of dust bunnies hyroot lol.


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## hyroot (Apr 22, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> The picture on the left looks like a pile of dust bunnies hyroot lol.


Its hash my friend. Drying in a keyboard box. Later tonight I will put in a thick bag and place bag into boiling water for 1 to 2 min. Then press then freeze for 5 min and done.


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## 48martin (Apr 22, 2012)

Nice nugz.. Any specific strain of Bubba Kush?


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## infinitalus (Apr 22, 2012)

I thought it might be, but the low resolution had me guessing. Im trying my first run at hash this harvest. My buds are already frosty and theyre in their third week. Just ordered the hash bags actually 

My next run Ill be using 32 T5 lamps in a 4x8 area scrogging a different strain in each 4x4 'slot': Rocklock and Afghan Kush. Gonna put a few mystery seeds they send me in my order in a separate cabinet and clone if I get any females. By the time I have a second hut, the clones should be ready to go in. Putting the seed order in next month so Ill have them on hand for june/july when I harvest.


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## AltarNation (Apr 22, 2012)

Popped in an order for another 4-bulb from that guy who has the good deals on ebay. Should be here before I need to harvest... will be using it as side/back-lighting in the flower chamber. Now I just gotta order some more flora suns and maybe one more coral wave...


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## AltarNation (Apr 22, 2012)

Hyroot you got more bud shots for us?  Lookin' great! That is a lot of hash I s'pect!


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

Nice altar! Im going to see if really heavy top light is going to be over kill for my colas. 864w Top light per 4'x4' scrog. Trying to match tropical sunlight atmosphere With dry air and uvb boosts for flowering. Hard to do near a lake but we will see with adequate ventilation. Ordered an outlet plugin digital thermostat for environment control inside the room. I keep my house adequately cooled to not have to run a separate ac, thankfully. It has been cooler lately but summer is just around the corner. June/july is harvest time, better to be prepared.


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## PetFlora (Apr 23, 2012)

*Infini:* I would think one 8 bulb would be ample for veging. Once they outgrow the 2 X 4 move half to the other fixture. Save $$$


My personal experience using actinic bulbs (before and after) is this: my Quantum Grows perform much better. UVL AquaSun is nice too, and available with reflector. 

I now run my Wave Point Coral Waves (2/8] in veg & flower.

Since figuring this out, my plants are infilling (and growing) quite nicely, so yesterday I replaced a Red Life (working fine) with a second Quantum Flower bulb (each on the outside) followed by 2 Coral Waves + 2 Quantum Grows. Only running 6 bulbs at the moment, but it won't be long before I need to go 8. 

Seems the ZooMed FloraSun has ample blue/green for flowering. I say 'seems' as I am also mixing in 2 Q F + 2 Red Lifes during flower, so not sure whether that much red will overpower the b/g, but if need be I can go back to either the AquaSun or QGs until late flower.

I'll get off my lazy ass and take a couple pics then post...

Method is HPA (sans accumulator). Damn, I should have taken some root porn. 

Mostly 9-10" , growing in all dimensions ~1.5" per day, now that lights are dialed in


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *Infini:* I would think one 8 bulb would be ample for veging. Once they outgrow the 2 X 4 move half to the other fixture. Save $$$




I agree until they are about 10" tall or so. Definitely not going to be wasting lamp life and electricity when I only need low amounts of light when they are still babies. Once I see ANY shadow from sugar leaves blocking light to another plant its time to space them out and get the screen in place. For my scrog, I plan on getting them a little taller before inducing flowering: 18-20". 6 plants are going to cover a 4x4 area and I want to make sure most of the screen will be filled, especially since Ill be running 16 lamps per 4x4 area which is ~80k lumens of good PAR lighting (5k lumens / sqft). Height isnt so much of a problem with my grow area, I have 6.5' to work with or about 5'10" after including the height of the fixture and suspension rope ratchets.

I have been utilizing 2x 26w CFL UVB lights (the Repti Glo 10.0 by R'zilla) for 4 hours a day in the middle of my flower cycle on the side of my hut that has the Grosite and the results are definitely noticeable. Next run, Im gonna be using 2 on each side for both veg and flower with the lights directly in the middle of the plants using a standing lamp. I run it for 1/3 of the time of the photo period, so 6 hours for veg (after 10" tall, dont want to kill them) and 4 hours for flower. 

I thought a LOT about how to be able to provide drainage when Im flushing since Im using soil as my medium. There will be 6x 13" square pots per 4x4 space, making 4 columns of 3 pots. I found 44" long storage totes that I can cut around the outside, making the containers about 15" tall, just barely taller than the containers to make sure there will be little spillage of water, still be able to reach in and trim the plant, and short enough for the plant to grow out of. Once the sides of the tote are cut, Ill line it with mylar. Each plant spot will be marked with a large X using a sharpie. Drill 3x 1/2" holes on the bottom side of the tote (one for each plant), make some flexible hose lengths which runs to the front of the tent. Line up the hoses to make them flush for the tote and put some sealant on it. After watering/flushing, the run off will go straight to a collection bucket that I can dump in the tub. Cuts out a lot of labor and any need for a helping hand.

Light + CO2 = Photosynthesis, right? LV was right to a certain degree: With ample amounts of CO2 already, if you blast the canopy with high levels of USEFUL lumens and maintain environment the result will be explosive growth and/or frosty buds. Since Ill be doing scrog, I wont have a dire need for any side lighting. If I did, the result wouldnt be cost effective. However, with 32 lamps in a 4x8x6.5 space I am concerned once more with heat but Im pretty sure that with adequate ventilation and air cooling the lamps with these really nifty clip-on air king fans that Im already using, this should be a breeze. I put the order in last night along with my hash bags for an environment controller. Once the temp hits above 80 Ill have it set to run the intake/exhaust fans. Summer temps arent here yet but its coming up fast. If worst comes to worst, I already have a 3 year old 8,000 BTU A/C unit thats been laying around for the last year or so. My current living situation has central air and Im not looking to downgrade lol. I can easily build a stand with scrap lumber I have around here and hook it up into one of the tents 6" ported holes. Hopefully I wont need to do this, cost is already a limiting factor and I dont have $300 to spend on AC units and hookup ducting nor the time to build stands.

It sucks being poor and still needing equipment


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

In regards to bulb choices in Veg. 

Has anyone noticed any slower growth with the use of Blue actinic bulbs? The plants do respond well to the light but the growth for me is slower. Based on this repeating 4 bulb mix @ 18/6. (6500 - Reefwave - 6500 - Bluewave) The nodal spacing does appear tighter. 

In Flower i have an interesting thing happening to a Kola. It is centered between a Coral Wave and Red Wave tube. Half of the Kola is getting more Coral while the other is getting Red Suns. Imagine looking at a side view of a Kola on you screen, the hairs on the left side of the bud are exploding and pulling more towards the Coral Wave light on the left. The side of the Red Sun looks great but there is a physical difference between the two. 

-48


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## Undercover Cop (Apr 23, 2012)

48martin said:


> In regards to bulb choices in Veg.
> 
> Has anyone noticed any slower growth with the use of Blue actinic bulbs? The plants do respond well to the light but the growth for me is slower. Based on this repeating 4 bulb mix @ 18/6. (6500 - Reefwave - 6500 - Bluewave) The nodal spacing does appear tighter. ...
> -48



There are quite a few people recently claiming faster growth using grow bulbs in veg vs actinics. I was going to point out something but 48 kinda did it for me... (in my experience) Actinic bulbs or a very blue dominant spectrum (Actinic/6500k) will promote very tight node spacing and will grow very bushy squatty plants, _but _it will be admittedly slower vs a more equal ratio of blue to G/Y/O/R like you'll get if using standard commercial grow/blooms only (*Actinics only, are NOT recommeded, dont go over 50% actinics, at least I dont recommend it). Those that arent using any Actinic bulbs at all or those that only use more balanced tri-band bulbs like the Quantum grow/blooms or the AquaSun probably will get faster growth (which may be their goal) but I can guarantee their node distances arent as tight as if there were actinics in play (I guarantee some will argue with me, but I promise you're not getting the fast growth _AND_ 2-3 nodes per inch that I usually get with half Actinics) It aaaaalllll comes back to personal preference. I see stuff on TV and youtube, big professional grows etc and I see plants under 2ft tall with 6 inch node distances and I laugh! I personally prefer to keep my plants as small as possible and am not concerned with the fastest growth (there are times I wish they would slow down lol). For me, a good strong short squatty frame is more important to develop in veg to support massive colas and more yield in flower while still staying smallish. Others prefer the fastest growth for the quickest turn around. Everyone has their own personal preferences and techniques. I dont want to say that my way or anyones way is any better, I just want everyone to realize that there are many different ways to skin the same cat. Pot grown naturally outdoors under the sun usually has pretty long node spacing, and I do think the tri-band grow bulbs do simulate natural sunlight a little better than an Actinic (a-Duh! lol) but I like playing god to my plants and making them grow up how I want them to. Even if they appear freakishly un-natural with 10 nodes at 5inches tall!  

just saying that you cant claim "better" performance from a bulb, since the performance/results are all relative to the growers preferences.


Same mexican bagseed strain, same age. 2nd pic was vegged under my flowering spectrum for 10days before 12/12 flip (no side branching). Just to show the different ways they will respond to light and how it will affect their actual physical structure.





48martin said:


> In Flower i have an interesting thing happening to a Kola. It is centered between a Coral Wave and Red Wave tube. Half of the Kola is getting more Coral while the other is getting Red Suns. Imagine looking at a side view of a Kola on you screen, the hairs on the left side of the bud are exploding and pulling more towards the Coral Wave light on the left. The side of the Red Sun looks great but there is a physical difference between the two.
> 
> -48



 thats shows evidence of another fun fact. Phototropism, your plans are responding to the Actinic Blue light from the CW. Plants will grow towards a blue light more than others. 
Youre gonna see more physical response from blue light than red, the red light plays more into promoting the internal processes involved in flowering, whereas the blues (abundance of, or lack of) will show more in their physical/structural appearance

maybe shift the light or the plant 2inches to kinda even it up, give the otherside some love


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

Amen brother. For me it works better since I need slightly more time in the Veg cycle to keep a perpetual cycle going. If I need to speed up the time, I can either go 24/0 Veg or change bulbs. 

-48


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## MurshDawg (Apr 23, 2012)

48martin said:


> Amen brother. For me it works better since I need slightly more time in the Veg cycle to keep a perpetual cycle going. If I need to speed up the time, I can either go 24/0 Veg or change bulbs.
> 
> -48


To be honest I've been vegging with a 250 watt hps and flowering using my t5s.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

UCC, good info! 

I flip my plants around every day or two for even light distribution. My canopy is way out of control considering their size and how much light I have available for them. Next grow will be different with 32 lamps.


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

I am running 3 small ones under this light as test subjects. I normally rotate the stock I have everyday 90 degrees to keep from hot spots from forming. The testers are in place for genetics that I am not too familiar with and in smaller pots for me to experiment with. (allows me to test nute levels)
Within the 3 different plants I try different pruning techniques and growing methods. 
I just found it interesting that there was that much movement from the Coral Wave vs. the Redsun almost to the point of replacing a few of the redsuns with Coral Waves.

ps I like fun facts. Thanks for the in depth reply.

-48


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

MurshDawg said:


> To be honest I've been vegging with a 250 watt hps and flowering using my t5s.


Cool. Whatever works for you.


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## kpmarine (Apr 23, 2012)

So I ordered a bunch of free samples from Sierra Naturals. It's a bunch of free control stuff mostly (Fungicide, pesticide, etc.). It was all free, and there's a ton though. So if you want something new to try, look them up. I got everything free, no shipping even. I haven't tried it out, but free shit is free shit. I selected every product and said "Hey, I want to try some new stuff." , got all of them with no questions today. Not an advert, but I figured a lead would be appreciated. http://sierranaturalscience.com/contactus


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## falcon223 (Apr 23, 2012)

Well my red suns that Jeff replaced after my first 3 died, in like 4 days. Are going strong. I think they got the problem fixed.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Well my red suns that Jeff replaced after my first 3 died, in like 4 days. Are going strong. I think they got the problem fixed.


Mine have been working just fine for ~4 weeks. I have a single red sun from ~9 weeks ago thats still working great. I originally ordered 3 red suns but the other 2 that arrived were DOA.


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## kpmarine (Apr 23, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Mine have been working just fine for ~4 weeks. I have a single red sun from ~9 weeks ago thats still working great. I originally ordered 3 red suns but the other 2 that arrived were DOA.


I only had problems with one so far. The endcap went bad in the fixture. It wasn't even out of the seller's warranty period. Only one so far, it's getting replaced though.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I only had problems with one so far. The endcap went bad in the fixture. It wasn't even out of the seller's warranty period. Only one so far, it's getting replaced though.


Its good youre getting it replaced, Jeff at UVL is a pretty good guy for customer service. Kinda sucks its taking forever to get/keep them in stock. I would suppose that if UVL orders a larger quantity of the red phosphor then maybe they would be able to get a step-up on the slow, uneven distribution of it among the demand side of the chain.


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## kpmarine (Apr 23, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Its good youre getting it replaced, Jeff at UVL is a pretty good guy for customer service. Kinda sucks its taking forever to get/keep them in stock. I would suppose that if UVL orders a larger quantity of the red phosphor then maybe they would be able to get a step-up on the slow, uneven distribution of it among the demand side of the chain.


Now that the market for them is picking up, it stands to reason prices should drop a bit. Also, reliability should get a boost too.


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

Wish I could find a place that sells both the Flora Sun and the Coral Wave so I could save on shipping... only option I've found so far is petco and their prices are jacked... and they don't even have 3 floras in stock...


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Wish I could find a place that sells both the Flora Sun and the Coral Wave so I could save on shipping... only option I've found so far is petco and their prices are jacked... and they don't even have 3 floras in stock...


http://www.petco.com/petco_page_PC_pricematch.aspx

I find that a lot of retailers will honor price matches.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 23, 2012)

thank you martin and here is rep for that!


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

Not really useful to me as there's no petco anywhere near me.. in store price matching only... thanks though.


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Not really useful to me as there's no petco anywhere near me.. in store price matching only... thanks though.


No problem. You would be surprised on how receptive these places are by calling them or emailing them. Especially the bigger retailers.


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> thank you martin and here is rep for that!


Thanks. Not really necessary to rep but thanks. 
-48
(48Martin is my 1948 Martin D18, not my name.)


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## polyarcturus (Apr 23, 2012)

ahh a guitar lover. but thats still that my name(polyarcturus or poly for short) here.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

Big deals going on at Foster and Smith. They dont have wavepoint products, but they are offering no additional shipping cost at this moment.

AquaticLife 420/460:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=21443

Flora Sun:

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/Product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=23649


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## kpmarine (Apr 23, 2012)

Now here's something that's been bothering me. How does a 24" tube cost the same as a 48" tube? I have yet to see more than $1 worth of difference in price. Seems a bit uncool to the people that don't have room for 48" tubes.


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah, not bad on those floras... wihs they had some coral waves... too bad I have to spend 49 to get the free shipping... I woulda just bit the bullet and got 4x flora suns instead of the 3 and a coral wave but the total comes out to like 47.96... jesus, so close. *looks for something to spend a dollar on so he can save 5 dollars* d'oh


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Now here's something that's been bothering me. How does a 24" tube cost the same as a 48" tube? I have yet to see more than $1 worth of difference in price. Seems a bit uncool to the people that don't have room for 48" tubes.


Think of it like shirt sizes. Work and material goes into fabrication of the product, then transport cost. Typically, sizes after L or X-L begin to increase in price.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah, not bad on those floras... wihs they had some coral waves... too bad I have to spend 49 to get the free shipping... I woulda just bit the bullet and got 4x flora suns instead of the 3 and a coral wave but the total comes out to like 47.96... jesus, so close. *looks for something to spend a dollar on so he can save 5 dollars* d'oh


Yeah I wish they had waves too to avoid additional shipping cost. Ill be spending a good $600-700 depending on how lamp prices fluctuate on that vendor in the next 3-4 months. Their prices arent bad for most items, its my secondary to amazon.

EDIT: Ha, shipping for T5 lamps is typically premium except for the last time I got some from amazon. I ordered T5 UVB lamps for my 2x2ft fixture. They put the lamps on the bottom of a terribly oversized package with a little bit of brown paper for packaging. One of them was broken, Im surprised both werent. The intact lamp was a fail since the lamp wasnt as described in product description. Sent em back for free, same packaging. I should be getting the refund by wednesday.

I bought a few 26w UVB CFLs at a local pet store since I already had a few spare workshop fixtures laying around. Working great! I prefer a little extra CBN for a stronger body buzz, helps my knee out more.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 23, 2012)

im in the same situation altar im about to bite the bullet and buy 6 flora sun from dr foster and get the coral waves later.... i called all my pet stores around here all the prices where jacked staying online id rater pay the 10$ shipping


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

Hahaha... I found a fish-catching net for 1.09, makes my order 49.05 with free shipping 

Looks like I'm going with four more flora suns and keeping my coral wave count at 2x for now.


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Now here's something that's been bothering me. How does a 24" tube cost the same as a 48" tube? I have yet to see more than $1 worth of difference in price. Seems a bit uncool to the people that don't have room for 48" tubes.


chaps my ass but I am sure its a manufacturing issue. There seems like more consumer uses for the larger tubers. In some cases the 24" might cost them more at the end of the day, depending on demand and if they have to retool their machinery each run. 

Here is a question. Since some of you guys are helping out UV with their new tubes, why dont you all ask Jeff at UV to test the elusive purple Fiji? Would be great to get a chart of that one and since you all are doing a bunch of R & D for them.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

Hey hey you guys save some for me!


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

48martin said:


> Here is a question. Since some of you guys are helping out UV with their new tubes, why dont you all ask Jeff at UV to test the elusive purple Fiji? Would be great to get a chart of that one and since you all are doing a bunch of R & D for them.


Hmmm... not a bad idea but not sure he'd do it on the grounds that it's a different company's bulb and they've chosen not to release it... if he doesn't want us sharing his new chart, something tells me he ain't gonna share another company's 'secret' chart either.


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

Guys we could probably pool our resources and open up a shop to sell all the generic grow and bloom bulbs we get with our fixtures... LOL...

Okay, I got my new 4-bub on it's way and 4 flora suns on their way... this will be my last purchase for a long while.

Will probably mix and match some of the reds from the top fixture into the side lighting too. And I think I'll take the two retrofitted tubes off the fixture and hang them in the front or between rows of plants in the middle as more side lighting. This will allow me to hang the fixture lower and closer at the top, and the bulbs can get more direct exposure since they have no real reflectors anyway. I'm thinking I will try to dangle them between the plants so both sides of the bulbs are being put to good use.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

48martin said:


> Here is a question. Since some of you guys are helping out UV with their new tubes, why dont you all ask Jeff at UV to test the elusive purple Fiji? Would be great to get a chart of that one and since you all are doing a bunch of R & D for them.


It may be illegal to do so. Also, it is really costly to do a spectral analysis.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Guys we could probably pool our resources and open up a shop to sell all the generic grow and bloom bulbs we get with our fixtures... LOL...


If only the badboys came with lamps. Im not too keen on the Radiions; while they do project more lumen/sqft, I prefer vented ballasts and fixture for heat to rise up, a fixture that is more friendly with my 6" clip-on fans, better reflectivity, better light output with superior ballasts, and covers a larger area.

I do have a few spares on hand already though  I guess better to hold on to a few in case one breaks and Im already in a bind.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah they are emergency bulbs at this point... I only got the 4-tube radiion which I suspect is about equal in size and distribution as my hydrofarm 4-bulb. Maybe a little narrower. But it's going to be for side lighting so I think it will work out for my situation. I'll be sure to post some feedback about it when I get it set up. If I don't like it as much i can always swap it with my hydrofarm 4-bulb that's in veg now.


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

Hey, here's a funny question... anyone got a good rack for storing their extra bulbs? I have been keeping the shipping tubes for storage and it is a total bitch to get at them. I am thinking about looking for a door-side umbrella rack or something, lol. So I can pick at them without having to open tubes and unwrap padding etc. etc...


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah they are emergency bulbs at this point... I only got the 4-tube radiion which I suspect is about equal in size and distribution as my hydrofarm 4-bulb. Maybe a little narrower. But it's going to be for side lighting so I think it will work out for my situation. I'll be sure to post some feedback about it when I get it set up. If I don't like it as much i can always swap it with my hydrofarm 4-bulb that's in veg now.


I agree, they would be useful for side lighting. Im going to be using my 6-lamp Radiion for three mothers next grow.


----------



## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hey, here's a funny question... anyone got a good rack for storing their extra bulbs? I have been keeping the shipping tubes for storage and it is a total bitch to get at them. I am thinking about looking for a door-side umbrella rack or something, lol. So I can pick at them without having to open tubes and unwrap padding etc. etc...


I keep them unsheathed, laying horizontally on a rack in the closet separate from anything else other than a couple of scales to make sure they stay in place. I just rotate them if I need to see the label


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> I keep them unsheathed, laying horizontally on a rack in the closet separate from anything else other than a couple of scales to make sure they stay in place. I just rotate them if I need to see the label


Yeah I need some kind of rack to keep 'em safe... don't have a good closet spot for 'em because my closets are asininely shaped, heh. (None of the shelves are 48" wide)


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Hahaha... I found a fish-catching net for 1.09, makes my order 49.05 with free shipping
> 
> Looks like I'm going with four more flora suns and keeping my coral wave count at 2x for now.


Free shipping isn't free, it costs $1.09! Dammit, now I've got that song from team america stuck in my head. haha


----------



## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Free shipping isn't free, it costs $1.09! Dammit, now I've got that song from team america stuck in my head. haha


Anyone want to buy a fish catching net? LOL


----------



## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Yeah I need some kind of rack to keep 'em safe... don't have a good closet spot for 'em because my closets are asininely shaped, heh. (None of the shelves are 48" wide)


Ive got it: a pool stick (Cue) rack.


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

That could work quite well, hahaha. Pool cues do tend to be taller than umbrellas


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Free shipping isn't free, it costs $1.09! Dammit, now I've got that song from team america stuck in my head. haha


TEAM AMERICA, FUCK YEAH! HERE TO SAVE THE MOTHER FUCKIN DAY YEAH! Haha, matt and trey are brilliant comedy writers


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> It may be illegal to do so. Also, it is really costly to do a spectral analysis.


There are many reasons I can come up with that wont work. But until you try, you don't know. How costly is it to do a spectral analysis, especially if you are a large light manufacture? How much does R & D cost them that you all are doing for free? 
Everything is negotiable especially in retail. You just need to know who to ask and how to ask for it. 
Just throwing that idea out for you guys.


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## kpmarine (Apr 23, 2012)

48martin said:


> There are many reasons I can come up with that wont work. But until you try, you don't know. How costly is it to do a spectral analysis, especially if you are a large light manufacture? How much does R & D cost them that you all are doing for free?
> Everything is negotiable especially in retail. You just need to know who to ask and how to ask for it.
> Just throwing that idea out for you guys.


Worst they can do is say "no".


----------



## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

Ill prepare an email for Jeff and see what he says. Youre right, the worst he can say is no.


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

I would call him and try to butter him up a bit. Find the best spokesperson you all have that has already spoken to him. Emailing might draw a red flag where he might have to say no. My point on all of these emails is just to try to offer some solutions to your problems.


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## hyroot (Apr 23, 2012)

Bam sucka. After boiling n pressing.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

Calls are typically recorded for 'quality assurance purposes' anyway, email isnt going to be any different I dont think. This is what Im sending:

Jeff,

Somethings been bugging me and I would like to know if you can do myself and the T5 PAR lighting for horticulture community a favor and set things straight.


Do you remember the spectral graph I sent you before on the Korallen-Zucht Fiji Purple? If not, I attatched one to this email. The general consensus is the graph provided is a sham. According to Thom from KZ, the Fiji purple only has a 5-6% red output and will not release a graph for it. Looking at the graph, it doesnt correlate. Nowhere on the web have we been able to find an accurate graph. Would it be possible to also do a spectral analysis on a Fiji Purple and share the graph data?


The thing is we just want to know what the best bang for the dollar is for this specific purpose and we have no idea where to even inquire about doing a spectral analysis. You mentioned to me previously that the 660nm would be priced around $30 per 48" V-HO lamp. Honestly, some of us wouldnt mind paying the extra cost if we actually knew what we are buying.


On another note, I have had the 660 in for about 2 weeks, and the growth underneath is great. The other side of the fixture has red suns and I think the difference may be substantial.


Let me know what you think 


Regards,
X


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

hyroot, that looks like a pretty sticky clump of goo lol

how much did your scuff weigh and whats the end result? i just got an email that my hashbags were shipped


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Bam sucka. After boiling n pressing.
> 
> 
> View attachment 2135645


Jesus Hyroot, LOL. Is that just from sugar leaves or did you hash some buds? How much does that weigh?


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## AltarNation (Apr 23, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Calls are typically recorded for 'quality assurance purposes' anyway, email isnt going to be any different I dont think. This is what Im sending:
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> ...


If he says he doesn't have one I've got one I'll send him, LOL.


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## 48martin (Apr 23, 2012)

Yeah its a crap shoot either way. Nicely written and good luck. 



infinitalus said:


> Calls are typically recorded for 'quality assurance purposes' anyway, email isnt going to be any different I dont think. This is what Im sending:
> 
> Jeff,
> 
> ...


----------



## hyroot (Apr 23, 2012)

Just from sugar leaves. Dry trim from 2 batches. I kept trim stored in the freezer. Trim weighed around 6 oz. . The goo weighed 25 g.

I only use 2 bags. The work bag and 60 micron bag. I used to keep do all the bags but didnt like it that way. One bag would taste better than other. Ome would bubble more than others. Varied in plyable. One time I accidentally mixed up all the hash and just mashed it all together. That turned out the best. So been using the 60 only aside from work bag.


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## infinitalus (Apr 23, 2012)

Thats impressive, ~15% return rate from scuff to goo. I know what to look for now


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## kpmarine (Apr 23, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Bam sucka. After boiling n pressing.
> 
> 
> View attachment 2135645


Not trying to knock it, but everything I've seen is pretty much one color. Is that something that happens over time? Does it actually matter (Does it effect anything?)? I'm not really a hash connoisseur, so I am a bit curious. Made some BHO to try it recently, I do see why some people are a fan of hash.


----------



## MurshDawg (Apr 23, 2012)

Almost done! I think the only thing that sucks about my t5 is that I need a clip on fan. My cab temps aren't as nice as they could be. Hope y'all like it


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## pedro420 (Apr 24, 2012)

Well I just successfully made my first batch of bubble hash 
I got some 1 gal bubble bags and they were filled half way with fresh trim and fan leaves ran the water threw 2 times and got about 2 bowls of hash I think that's good for my first time doing it 

Also had to cut down one of my girls tonight was only 35 days into flower but when she is dry I suspect I should get around a Oz I didn't think there was as much bud on her as there accualy was but as I started to trim her she had like entire branches full of buds I'm going to let the last 2 girls keep going as long as I can 

If your wondering why' i cut her down so early its because we are getting a new house and I wanted some smoke dried and cured for when we move wile all the outher girls are curing I didn't want to cut her but she had solid white trics all over her and some were turning amber but not a lot kinda more of a pink color


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## falcon223 (Apr 24, 2012)

hyroot, can you tell us how you do the boiling of the hash??? I was told that heat destroys THC. Vary curious. 

Thanks.


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## hyroot (Apr 24, 2012)

Do not put in any fan leaves. Only sugar leaves. Store in freezer prior at least over night. Then either cut or grind pretty good or run through a food processor for 20 seconds. Then run that. 

1. Put in some ice.
2. Add some water
3. Add trim
4. Mix up good.
5. Add more ice
6. Add rest of trim
7. Add more ice
8. Add more water
Z
Let sit for 10 min. Run mixer for 10 to 15 min. Let sit then repeat. after you scrape off all hash. Run it all again like 3 more times. You will.get a little more each time.


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## hyroot (Apr 24, 2012)

Boiling..... After it dries. Put it in a thick freezer bag or food saver vacuum seal bag. Boil some water. Once water is boiling. Submerge bag in water ( use tongs) for a minute or 2 or until hash feels soft. Then press it flat. I use a tortilla press. You can press with anything heavy. Then put it in the freezer for 5 min. Then take out and peel from bag. It will be hard. Let it sit for 10 min and it will be pliable. Then keep stored in the freezer to keep fresh and preven mold.

oxidising causes it to get darker over time.

mine is potent as fuck. So I dont think its in heat long enough to degrade.

SMOKE CHREESE


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## falcon223 (Apr 24, 2012)

Thanks hyroot, that could not be any better. I cant wait to try it. Thanks.


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## kpmarine (Apr 24, 2012)

http://www.hagen.com/uk/aquatic/product.cfm?CAT=1&SUBCAT=112&PROD_ID=01015800031001

Shame all the big bulbs are T8.


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## infinitalus (Apr 24, 2012)

I have a reply from Jeff. 

X,
As I never want to question a companies integrity and want to believe that they are being truthful with the information they are providing...I also know that most T5 companies utilize a third party manufacture. UV Lighting uses a inter source company to produce our lamps but, the difference is that we own the blends, name and rights to everything that we sell under our name. That being said...I'm not sure who is producing the Figi Purple lamps and it seems a little strange that they are unwilling to release a spectral graph to their product. I can have the lamp spec graphed, but we do not make it a policy to purchase a competitor's product and run test on them. If you or your community can provide me with one I will send it in for testing. Attached is other spectral graphs to lamps we produce. Pay attention to the 75.25 lamp graph. When comparing apples to apples the Figi Purple looks very close to our 75.25 in color, or so I've been told. Our 75.25 is made up of 75% 420nm and 25% triband RGB mix.

Regards,
Jeff Saghy
UV Lighting Co.
[email protected]



My reply was this:

Jeff,


The problem is that KZ isnt providing any information. I agree that it is strange that they wouldnt, but they arent providing any specifics other than a vague phosphor description which isnt very helpful.


And even stranger thing is the website where We got this graph doesnt have a source for their information and has no contact information. Upon examination of the source code of the website and metadata of the picture itself, the picture is titled Geisemann fiji purple, yet they dont own the rights to that lamp. Weird.


I understand its not your policy to acquire lamps from other manufacturers and compare data but we do sincerely appreciate your willingness to run the test and share the results. This will help all of us immensely with future purchasing decisions.


Ill speak with the guys within the community and get a lamp shipped to you. Ill provide details on that and should hopefully have one to you by next week.


Thanks a lot Jeff, its always a pleasure working with you 


Regards,
X



I checked my small collection of spare lamps and I dont have any fijis laying around. Anyone willing to step up to the plate?

Edit: for the sake of science I will replace one of the fijis in my grosite and replace it with a 3000k. If it really is around a 75% 420nm phosphor then i have way too much blue as it is. However, im too damn poor to purchase the packaging and pay to have it shipped. I will sacrifice the lamp if others are willing to help cover the cost of shipping and packaging. What do you guys think?


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## AltarNation (Apr 24, 2012)

His assessment can't be right, as I run both a fiji and a 75.25 and they are no where near the same tint. That being said, I can ship him a fiji to test I'd imagine. I got one I'm not using right now. Don't really want to foot the shipping cost right now, I'm a little tight funds wise. I suppose I can make an exception though, as long as I can catch the UPS guy during a drop off or whatever. I don't live near a location and I have to pay like an extra 15 bucks to get them to come do pickups... fuck that...

Honestly I would rather just give away the bulb permanently than pay to ship it to him... too bad there's no way to trade the cost of the bulb I already paid for the shipping cost or something, haha. Fuckers cost 30 a piece. I better get it back.


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

He says thats what he was told, not his own observation. I dont own a 75.25 but I imagine its a turqoisish color.

I agree 15$ for a pickup is ludicrous. Try using usps hust make sure its packaged really well with a tracking number. Ill ask Him for his shipping information.

I dont think youd get it back unless you pay return shipping.


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## falcon223 (Apr 25, 2012)

If you are steal in need of some shipping money in 2 weeks ,I think I can help. Got rent and truck note rite now.


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## AltarNation (Apr 25, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> He says thats what he was told, not his own observation. I dont own a 75.25 but I imagine its a turqoisish color.
> 
> I agree 15$ for a pickup is ludicrous. Try using usps hust make sure its packaged really well with a tracking number. Ill ask Him for his shipping information.
> 
> I dont think youd get it back unless you pay return shipping.


Hah... well it is a 30 dollar bulb I'd be sacrificing then, that's sort of lame. And considering how much he charged me for his prototypes it's the least he could do.  

And good point, he did say that was what he heard. In my observation, the 75.25's almost look completely flat white, but to be fair, they are usually in the veg fixture with actinic blues and 454's.

Yeah, maybe I can do USPS, that should be a lot cheaper.


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## AltarNation (Apr 25, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> If you are steal in need of some shipping money in 2 weeks ,I think I can help. Got rent and truck note rite now.


Appreciate the offer falcon but I can probably manage it... maybe I can throw a ten dollar bill in the box for return shipping 

Does anyone else find themselves wondering if Jeff is camping our thread? LOL. I know I'd be searching google for references to my name and company if someone said they were talking about it/me on a "horticultural message board" (lol, I used the same terminology when I emailed him.)

Jeff, show yourself


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## polyarcturus (Apr 25, 2012)

i was wondering about similar things about about sunblaster guy.....lol. horticulture. lol


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## AltarNation (Apr 25, 2012)

just gave my girls their last feeding I think. I will water once more in about 3-4 days, then give 'em a day to dry a little, then 72 hours of dark and chop.

adding latest pics to mah thread in a few.

Edit: Actually I can't seem to upload any pics for some reason. Hmmm.


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## pedro420 (Apr 25, 2012)

Thoes Hagen aqua glo bulbs would be perfect if you had this fixture I found a wile back I forget where but it had 2 t5 and 2 t8 in the same fixture


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## polyarcturus (Apr 25, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Thoes Hagen aqua glo bulbs would be perfect if you had this fixture I found a wile back I forget where but it had 2 t5 and 2 t8 in the same fixture


i got so many t8 and t12 ballasts i already had plans on a retrofit for UV specific purposes. i want HIGH power red like evrybody else here..


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## kpmarine (Apr 25, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i got so many t8 and t12 ballasts i already had plans on a retrofit for UV specific purposes. i want HIGH power red like evrybody else here..


Overdriven 30w T8 should, in theory, draw about 50 watts. I was mostly intrigued because it looked like a gnarly 660 spike on it's spd.


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## pedro420 (Apr 25, 2012)

yes on the spd it did have a nice 660 spike not like a lotof bulbs that jushave a short high spike

I was thinking get a few t8 fixtures just some single or maby 2 bulb and use thoes bulbs as side light sence they have a good cover over the whole spectrum


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## kpmarine (Apr 25, 2012)

Okay, a warning to you folks. I don't care how awesome his genetics are, never buy from DR. Greenthumb if you like something resembling customer service. Called regarding $60 worth of seeds I returned over a month ago. Hasn't responded to 2 emails, and when I finally get ahold of someone just now on the phone. This is the response I get "Oh, I'm not in the office right now. Can you call back on Monday?" It's FUCKING WEDNESDAY!!! Also, their help desk is open for another hour. I even confirmed I called the right person to check. Just thought I'd save my pals here from discovering the same pitfall the hard way.


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## pedro420 (Apr 25, 2012)

Thanks for the heads up 

That's what happind to me I had a order from ministry of cannabis and they kept saying they sent them then about 1 month after the order I kept calling and they said wait to see if they come so I did about anouther month weight then I called them and started complaining and demanded to talk to the owner of the place they said he would call me back asap about 5 days later Igor a card in the mail with the seeds


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

Yeah I would buy from reputable companies only. Regardless if it is seeds, equipment, tools, etc. Read reviews of companies and make sure you look at shipping and return policies carefully before purchasing anything from anywhere whether its online or in store.

At any rate, I sent a quick email to Jeff asking for his shipping address. Ill get it to you when its in Altar.


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## kpmarine (Apr 25, 2012)

I've seen good reviews of his customer service normally. He's a bit on the crabby side from what I heard, but normally he's good about replacing seeds that don't germ. Normally more than happy to help with growing info for his strains from what I read. Maybe this gal that has answered the phone every time is just new or something. Either way though, definitely not going to be a repeat customer at this rate. Sorry, re-checked my math, it was about $81.60USD worth of seeds.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 25, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Okay, a warning to you folks. I don't care how awesome his genetics are, never buy from DR. Greenthumb if you like something resembling customer service. Called regarding $60 worth of seeds I returned over a month ago. Hasn't responded to 2 emails, and when I finally get ahold of someone just now on the phone. This is the response I get "Oh, I'm not in the office right now. Can you call back on Monday?" It's FUCKING WEDNESDAY!!! Also, their help desk is open for another hour. I even confirmed I called the right person to check. Just thought I'd save my pals here from discovering the same pitfall the hard way.


Its pretty well documented that Dr Greenthumb is a bad option if you want any type of Cust service.

Im a big fan of his autos though. Even though I'll never grow autos again.


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 25, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Its pretty well documented that Dr Greenthumb is a bad option if you want any type of Cust service.
> 
> Im a big fan of his autos though. Even though I'll never grow autos again.


It's Iranian Autoflower that has caused these problems. lol I was really excited to do a run of them outdoor too. At this rate, I'll maybe be able to get them planed next year...


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## polyarcturus (Apr 25, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Overdriven 30w T8 should, in theory, draw about 50 watts. I was mostly intrigued because it looked like a gnarly 660 spike on it's spd.


i would only use my t12 ballast anyways the overdrive is 80w both leads together and run either a 36wt8 or a 40wt12 10.0UVB bulb it would be more fun. but an overdriven red bulb could prove useful, but the downside(partly the reason i only want to do with UVB bulbs; short life span) shortens life span and lumen efficiency is reduced(lumen per watt) by up to 20%. its worth the sacrifice IMO, the thing that im thinking is would it just be better to run a regular t8 fixture at regular lumen efficiency just more of them and redesign the hood. see how reflector is designed is perfect but this would be sweet; in the valleys of the reflector would sit the t8 and on the peaks the t5 that or if they just perfected the t5ho bulbs that could work too.


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 25, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> It's Iranian Autoflower that has caused these problems. lol I was really excited to do a run of them outdoor too. At this rate, I'll maybe be able to get them planed next year...


Iranian Autoflower is an awesome strain.


----------



## kpmarine (Apr 25, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Iranian Autoflower is an awesome strain.


Did you grow it indoor?


----------



## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 25, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Did you grow it indoor?



Nope. It was grown by my family in Mendocino


----------



## pedro420 (Apr 25, 2012)

So I'm thinking wile I'm on down time from the move I'm going to be building a few things for the garden and stocking up on everything for the future grows 

Does anybody know of a good place with good deals on ballasts and parts to build your own ballest 
I'm not to good with electricity so I'll have to read up on a bunch of things to get I done properly 

But I got my inspiration on a ballest from the current USA nova extream fixture they have built in PC fans but I'm not going to pay 300+ for a 6 bulb fixture when I could buy a 12 bulb badboy and bulbs


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## polyarcturus (Apr 25, 2012)

fulham workhorse ballast are pretty cheap everywhere, greentree hydroponics got them at some of the best prices though.

t12 and t8 ballast you can find anywhere and oftern under 5$ sometime on CL.


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

Man, getting into building your own ballasts and reflectors is too much work for me. I built my own carbon filter last night and it definitely needs adjustment, but it does work somewhat. Its all about airflow. I turned off my intake fan, there was SERIOUS positive pressure. No thanks. Thats what Ill be working on tonight in about 3.5 hours when the lights come on, then its off for another double at work tomorrow. FML, seriously 

If I were an old man with all the time in the world, Id consider it.

The problem with using T8s is that you need SO MANY of them for them to even come close to effective. All of those cords and wiring.. ugh, no thanks. Wire management isnt so bad for me right now, but using T8/T12s it would quickly get out of hand.

Altar, PM incoming with Jeffs shipping information. I want to thank you for your financial sacrifice and effort for the T5 community as a whole. 

Even after 4,000 posts, this topic is still generating pertinent information that is of use! Lets keep it going for 10,000 before we compile all of the useful data?


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## AltarNation (Apr 25, 2012)

Got your PM man, thanks. I am glad to help everyone out. I feel like y'all are practically family at this point, LOL. And I am curious about the fiji's spectrum myself. I spent 60 dollars on two bulbs that I don't even use. FML 

Got my pic update to post finally, link's in the sig. Planning to chop them in about 5 days or so... feel free to input on that... could wait longer, but don't think I will, heh. Tired of working with leafy genetics... can't wait to get my kolossus into some dirt... I think I will germinate tomorrow.


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

Haha I kinda feel the same way. The T5 community is very, very small and I cant even imagine using HIDs again. Shrug. Ha, Im using them simply BC I cannot afford ANYTHING at all right now, even a few flora suns. Every dollar is being saved for the move coming up. Harvest as it is might be a close call with the supposed himalayan gold that I have. I MIGHT be able to harvest on time, it might have to be a bit early. Pack it into mason jars during transport and open them back up first thing and lay the buds back out on wax paper in the closet. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.

Takin a look at them pics, everyone loves pics ^^


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## AltarNation (Apr 25, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Haha I kinda feel the same way. The T5 community is very, very small and I cant even imagine using HIDs again. Shrug. Ha, Im using them simply BC I cannot afford ANYTHING at all right now, even a few flora suns. Every dollar is being saved for the move coming up. Harvest as it is might be a close call with the supposed himalayan gold that I have. I MIGHT be able to harvest on time, it might have to be a bit early. Pack it into mason jars during transport and open them back up first thing and lay the buds back out on wax paper in the closet. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do.
> 
> Takin a look at them pics, everyone loves pics ^^


Yeah I love pics 

Oh man, you're going to let them hang dry before you jar right? I'd be terrified of mold putting fresh buds in mason jars even for a short time... better to harvest 4-5 days early and give 'em a chance to dry if necessary... just checking on that, hopefully you meant after drying anyway 

p.s. just my opinionz! If you feel like risking it and/or it's a short ride, that is your perrogative


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

Hopefully I can let them hang dry. IDK if I will have the time or not. The move should be less than a 10 or 15 minute drive, its going to be somewhere in town still. Plus I have to make sure the smell is completely gone. Hopefully fresh paint will take care of that *shifty eyes*

PS Im already worried about mold. My room mate likes to play with the central AC and I have to constantly yell at him not to touch it. Today I got home and when I checked the room right before the lights went off, temps were at 95F and ~70% humidity. I about shit a brick. I think he got the point this time that if my room develops mold that Im going to break his fingers for touching the AC ^^ From now on the house will be sitting at a steady 70-72F. Once I take care of the air flow problem with the carbon filter, I shouldnt have any problems at all with temperature or humidity.


----------



## pedro420 (Apr 25, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> fulham workhorse ballast are pretty cheap everywhere, greentree hydroponics got them at some of the best prices though.
> 
> t12 and t8 ballast you can find anywhere and oftern under 5$ sometime on CL.


Thanks for the tip on the Fulham racehorse ballasts man

I'm going tonsils my own t5 I don't think I would build my own t8-t12 I got all the bulbs I need for a t5 so it would be ready as soone as I got the ballasts and built a reflector 

Infinit I am only going this route because I'm going to have a few months down time when I move in a few weeks and building one that I like because I can personalize it to my exact loveing seems cheaper and gives me time to experament with things like PC fans to cool it fiddle with reflectors and see what suits my tent best and building my own just give me thousands of options


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## AltarNation (Apr 25, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Hopefully I can let them hang dry. IDK if I will have the time or not. The move should be less than a 10 or 15 minute drive, its going to be somewhere in town still. Plus I have to make sure the smell is completely gone. Hopefully fresh paint will take care of that *shifty eyes*


Haha. That should do it... or get some ozium spray or something... that'll do it up good enough... you talking about the old place right? before you leave? Fuck 'em, smoke a cigar in the room before you go


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Infinit I am only going this route because I'm going to have a few months down time when I move in a few weeks and building one that I like because I can personalize it to my exact loveing seems cheaper and gives me time to experament with things like PC fans to cool it fiddle with reflectors and see what suits my tent best and building my own just give me thousands of options


Fulhams really are the way to go. V-HO lamps arent cost efficient and icecap ballasts arent backwards compatible with only HO lamps.

Fiddling with different reflectors and such will end up costing you more but once you find the style and design you like you can replicate it for cheaper, potentially. IMO, the design and quality of the badboy is just hard to beat. Sucks that its so expensive, and that I want/need 4 for every 4'x8' grow space I have.. The more lumens on the colas, the better. Gotta really keep them lamps close for it, and at a 95 degree operating temperature with a clip-on 6" fan that works wonders for air cooling the lamps.. its just too hard to even think about beating.

Still, building your own fixture may be great for side lighting. I think the deal that you can get for RADIIONs with lamps included (and your choice of lamps at that!) is a great deal even if they arent the fulham ballasts, they do work well for side lighting.


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Haha. That should do it... or get some ozium spray or something... that'll do it up good enough... you talking about the old place right? before you leave? Fuck 'em, smoke a cigar in the room before you go


Nah, paint ought to do it. If they still smell it, oh well. Im not doing anything illegal, everything I do is legit but paranoia with security never hurts anyone.


EDIT: FIRST POST ON PAGE 420! I WIN!!


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## pedro420 (Apr 25, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Fulhams really are the way to go. V-HO lamps arent cost efficient and icecap ballasts arent backwards compatible with only HO lamps.
> 
> Fiddling with different reflectors and such will end up costing you more but once you find the style and design you like you can replicate it for cheaper, potentially. IMO, the design and quality of the badboy is just hard to beat. Sucks that its so expensive, and that I want/need 4 for every 4'x8' grow space I have.. The more lumens on the colas, the better. Gotta really keep them lamps close for it, and at a 95 degree operating temperature with a clip-on 6" fan that works wonders for air cooling the lamps.. its just too hard to even think about beating.
> 
> Still, building your own fixture may be great for side lighting. I think the deal that you can get for RADIIONs with lamps included (and your choice of lamps at that!) is a great deal even if they arent the fulham ballasts, they do work well for side lighting.


I want to get a badboy
But I only have a 4-2 tent so it would be a 6-8 bulb so it would be cheaper than 12 and can't fit it lol

But if I build my own I'm useing a Fulham for up to 12 belt so I can extend some bulbs off the ends at a angle for some side lighting 

Haven't decided on what I'm going to do yet


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## infinitalus (Apr 25, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> But if I build my own I'm useing a Fulham for up to 12 belt so I can extend some bulbs off the ends at a angle for some side lighting


That would be interesting. Possible U / Vert scrog?

EDIT: The dimensions of an 8lamp badboy SHOULD allow you to hang it in there perfectly. Its 46.5x20 in inches. Get a clip on fan like this one: http://www.amazon.com/Air-King-9145-2-Speed-Clip-On/dp/B0007Q3RRU/ref=sr_1_1?s=home-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1334387981&sr=1-1

You should be just fine. That fan is rated at 190CFM of displacement which is more than enough to circulate the air in your room 2-3x per minute.

EDIT II: If you are REALLY paranoid about too much heat being on your plants, get 2 and mount them parallel to each other.


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## pedro420 (Apr 26, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> That would be interesting. Possible U / Vert scrog?
> 
> EDIT II: If you are REALLY paranoid about too much heat being on your plants, get 2 and mount them parallel to each other.


Ya I would try to do either a sog or a scrog but I'm leaning more toward a kind of mix with threshold Flore covers with 1 gal bags then just let them go crazy 

I'm not worried about heat well if once to final to avoider then yes I will be because I won't be able to use my exaust fan I got now 

But I don't know I'm going to try and make a few blueprints for ideas on fixtures and if I don't get a good idea I'll just save to gets badboy and modify the closet to have a passive room so I can exaust or invest in Co2 and just block off a 4 foot section


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## infinitalus (Apr 26, 2012)

CO2 is AWESOME. Its all about controlling environment after that


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## falcon223 (Apr 26, 2012)

If you built a fixture that was " V " shaped and went in the corner it would be vary Unick. 

What are you guys using for eye protection ???


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## Kite High (Apr 26, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> If you built a fixture that was " V " shaped and went in the corner it would be vary Unick.
> 
> What are you guys using for eye protection ???


why would they need it?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 26, 2012)

YOU NEED It IF YOU GOT 
UV OR IR.


any cheapo dollar glasses will work i only wear them if im working directly under my lights. otherwise you dont really need them avoid looking at the lights.

DIY carbon filter try putting it ontop of the washer and shaking the carbon till it more compact.

if you want to build your own fixture i would recommenced using a piece of sheet metal to build the reflector you can pretty much shape it however you want; get a couple clamp and clamp to to a table and you could recreate an expensive Reflector easy using the edge of the table just clamp an bend move the clamps make another bend. shouldnt cost more than 15$


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## Kite High (Apr 26, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> YOU NEED It IF YOU GOT
> UV OR IR.
> 
> 
> ...


I have both uvb and far red...we ALL have ir...thats the heat portion of the light...according to my meter when I am 12 inches away from the Arcadias and Not peering directly into the Megaray external ballasted ZOO bulbs it is less than I am exposed to in my yard... get an accurate uvb meter and you will see what I am saying...how is ir supposed to hurt your eyes? Every heat source would hurt your eyes in that case...jus sayin


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## polyarcturus (Apr 26, 2012)

Kite High said:


> I have both uvb and far red...we ALL have ir...thats the heat portion of the light...according to my meter when I am 12 inches away from the Arcadias and Not peering directly into the Megaray external ballasted ZOO bulbs it is less than I am exposed to in my yard... get an accurate uvb meter and you will see what I am saying...how is ir supposed to hurt your eyes? Every heat source would hurt your eyes in that case...jus sayin


you are correct but its not JUST IR its far red in general it literally causes the molecules to dance, the glasses work as a shield, ever wonder why you eyes hurt after a night at a bonfire? or just stare at the electric burner for a few minutes, thats a eye drier, its not just the heat its also the light. just wear glasses under the lights(like when your working within a foot or 2 of them, your eyes that is), plus rapid pupil dilation can cause temp blindness outside.

but the IR or UV coming from lights isnt really gonna fuck your eyes(or come close to the scale of the sun) up unless your like a foot or 2 from the bulbs with your bare eyes


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## polyarcturus (Apr 26, 2012)

where did you get arcadia bulbs?


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## AltarNation (Apr 26, 2012)

Kite, these par spectrum setups mess with your eyes even more than regular lights in my experience. My eyes show noticeable fatigue after just like five minutes under my fixture. They start to get that "cold burning" feeling.

I wear Shade 5 welding shades in my grow, and a hat to block the top-down penetration above the lenses. It is overkill, but my eyes feel like a million bucks when I'm done.


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## gamestwin (Apr 26, 2012)

what kind of t5s do u have..please enlighten me bro..


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## PetFlora (Apr 26, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Appreciate the offer falcon but I can probably manage it... maybe I can throw a ten dollar bill in the box for return shipping
> 
> Does anyone else find themselves wondering if Jeff is camping our thread? LOL. I know I'd be searching google for references to my name and company if someone said they were talking about it/me on a "horticultural message board" (lol, I used the same terminology when I emailed him.)
> 
> Jeff, show yourself


I may have given him the url several months ago when I first contacted him about a 660, but I doubt he has the time.

Anybody have any updates regarding their 660s? How red are they, are they performing as hoped...?


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## PetFlora (Apr 26, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> I want to get a badboy
> But I only have a 4-2 tent so it would be a 6-8 bulb so it would be cheaper than 12 and can't fit it lol
> 
> But if I build my own I'm useing a Fulham for up to 12 belt so I can extend some bulbs off the ends at a angle for some side lighting
> ...


My recommendation is no bigger than 4 bulb. This will allow you to drop between fixtures IR to be used ~ 1 hour after T5 is off. At this point I haven't found low powered IRs but someone has to be thinking about making them


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## AltarNation (Apr 26, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I may have given him the url several months ago when I first contacted him about a 660, but I doubt he has the time.
> 
> Anybody have any updates regarding their 660s? How red are they, are they performing as hoped...?


I really can't gauge it. There's a grow log going and you can see the difference in development since I put them in, but I do not notice any notable change in regards to buds that are directly under the 660's versus the ones that aren't or anything. I really don't think a comparison of bulbs is even possible without dual grows setup and side by side comparisons.


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## pedro420 (Apr 26, 2012)

Thanks for the tips everyone 

But if I decide to build one I'm going no less than 12 bulb ballest but I'm going to wire it kind of like a u but the sides won't be directly attached to the top set probly 6 on top then build arms on the side then 3 on each side or 6-6 shaped like a l and just have to rotate the girls every day 

I got a few ideas on how I could do it I'm glad I'm the creative type if I realy like it I'm going to try and patent it to sell online or something maby even turn part of the body shop into a hydro store with all the shyt I got


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## PetFlora (Apr 26, 2012)

BUT, anyone can configure just about any T5 set up they can think of using existing fixtures; 2/4/6/8/12 bulb fixtures are here now. 

Example: 4/6/8/12 bulb fixture on top and 2 @ 2/4/6 bulb horizontally on each side, and 2 vertically as end caps. If you want to run them off one ac plug simply buy some daisy chain power cords

Am I missing something?


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## pedro420 (Apr 26, 2012)

But then you got all the cords to worried about the way I'm doing it you won't have the cords just one to the ballast and that's it the rest would be inside tubes that are flexible 

Yes I know its not much different from daisy chains but it could be a good idea if the side lights are adjustable by themselves not like in a fixture where they are all attached togather I'll put some brackets inbetween so you can move the idividual bulbs to face how you want 

Its hard to explain I have a complicated thought I wish I had a program to draw up ideas on


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 26, 2012)

Day 50 of God Bud.


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## kpmarine (Apr 26, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> But then you got all the cords to worried about the way I'm doing it you won't have the cords just one to the ballast and that's it the rest would be inside tubes that are flexible
> 
> Yes I know its not much different from daisy chains but it could be a good idea if the side lights are adjustable by themselves not like in a fixture where they are all attached togather I'll put some brackets inbetween so you can move the idividual bulbs to face how you want
> 
> Its hard to explain I have a complicated thought I wish I had a program to draw up ideas on


You will have at least 3 ballasts. I'm fairly certain that 4 bulb ballasts are the best you'll find.


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## pedro420 (Apr 26, 2012)

Well I been online looking at Fulham ballasts I was on greentree Hydroponics website they are pretty cheap so I think that's where I'm going to get it from 

But I can't findout what ballest is for how many bulbs does nebody know how to tell


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## infinitalus (Apr 26, 2012)

@PetFlora,

There are pictures of the 660s posted within this thread.

I only have one 660 and 3 red suns in my 8 lamp fixture. The 660 is lamp #5 in my fixture. I havent seen a really noticable difference comparing sides, all of my buds are pretty frosty and on their third week of flowering. This morning when I looked, I seen the first orange/red hair on a couple of buds for one of my plants. Tomorrow Im going to feed them again.

I really hope that trichome development continues for extra stickiness. The UVB lamps I bought are helping the sugarleaves make additional resins. I hope it increases the CBN production enough to benefit my knee, time will tell.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 26, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Well I been online looking at Fulham ballasts I was on greentree Hydroponics website they are pretty cheap so I think that's where I'm going to get it from
> 
> But I can't findout what ballest is for how many bulbs does nebody know how to tell


go to the fulham.com website under cutomer service tab lookup the wiring diagrams, but the number(product numbers) on the ballast tell you what bulbs they run or the wattages


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## pedro420 (Apr 26, 2012)

Thank you poly 

I'll check it out and see what I can find

Would the t5 be the linear t5 ho


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## polyarcturus (Apr 26, 2012)

yes./';,][][]'


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## pedro420 (Apr 26, 2012)

Well after searching and talking to Fulham tech team I found the rite ballast and everything 

If anybody is interested in building your own the ballast is the - workhorse 7 - for a 4 ft 4bulb 

So I'm going to build my own ballast and fixture 
Averages price for a 6 bulb badboy =$160-180
Price for the 3 ballasts to make a 12 bulb =$144 plus material to make reflector and case it will be around $165 because I can do all the metal wood work myself at the body shop


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## polyarcturus (Apr 26, 2012)

just thought i would let everyone know dr. fosters and smiths 10% discount code is 365/8659 good till the 29th

just put an order in for x4 florasun and 8in forceps got the free shipping and the 10% off order total was 47$, not bad.

oh yeah the forceps usualy go for 8+$ so buy em while they are 3$ trust me everybody needs some.


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## pedro420 (Apr 26, 2012)

Good looking out poly 

Petco is haveing a sitewide up to 60% off sale untill Monday 
Idk if you guys buy stuff from there but that's where I got my bulbs from cheap as hell but I go in the store and use the online prices so its cheaper cuz you don't pay shipping


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## gamestwin (Apr 27, 2012)

If u COULD SIR..please PLEASE..list (IN ORDER) how u set this up? or does it matter as long as u have those lites in the same lamp?


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## AltarNation (Apr 27, 2012)

gamestwin said:


> If u COULD SIR..please PLEASE..list (IN ORDER) how u set this up? or does it matter as long as u have those lites in the same lamp?


Look, who are you speaking to? What are you asking?

If you use par spectrum bulbs, you should distribute the different colors as evenly as possible so as to spread and blend the spectrums. If that is even what you are asking.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 27, 2012)

pedro420 said:


> Good looking out poly
> 
> Petco is haveing a sitewide up to 60% off sale untill Monday
> Idk if you guys buy stuff from there but that's where I got my bulbs from cheap as hell but I go in the store and use the online prices so its cheaper cuz you don't pay shipping


Wait. The instore is matching online pricing?

Even online price of the Flora Sun bulbs is $15 and change. You can find them online for $11.


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## MurshDawg (Apr 27, 2012)

gamestwin said:


> If u COULD SIR..please PLEASE..list (IN ORDER) how u set this up? or does it matter as long as u have those lites in the same lamp?


Please be sure to click on "Reply with quote" it helps others know who you are talking to.


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## 48martin (Apr 27, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Wait. The instore is matching online pricing?
> 
> Even online price of the Flora Sun bulbs is $15 and change. You can find them online for $11.


PetCo and PetSolutions will price match online orders as long as it is a legit dealer and they have stock in hand. Eg. Amazon, Ebay, Craigslist do not qualify. 
Even though these places do not advertise this, they do offer it. 
Just do your research before hand (links to price matches) and send a nice email to them with the links and quantities you are looking to get. Make it easy for them to say Yes.

Some PetCo stores might match prices online but that will vary from store to store. (find a manager to ask)

-48


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## pedro420 (Apr 27, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Wait. The instore is matching online pricing?
> 
> Even online price of the Flora Sun bulbs is $15 and change. You can find them online for $11.


Maby I'm just lucky or something because I pay no more than 10 for them even when not in sale 
I use price match in the store if they sent on sale but if they are I pay no more than 10


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 27, 2012)

Just called 3 Petcos locally. None of them offer that. They are $22 for the Flora Suns and don't match their website.


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## pedro420 (Apr 27, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Just called 3 Petcos locally. None of them offer that. They are $22 for the Flora Suns and don't match their website.


That's not rite I only have 1 petco near me and if I go in with a list of online prices they match it 
And if I go in with competing store prices they beat it 

If you have a petco card you should automatically get the online price in store


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## 48martin (Apr 27, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Just called 3 Petcos locally. None of them offer that. They are $22 for the Flora Suns and don't match their website.


Again its how your present it to them and who you talk to. Next time your in one of their stores, find a manager and explain to him that you have to order from 3 different sources and would like to order from one if possible. Most of the time if your not in a hurry and are willing to special order items from them, they will be more inclined to help.


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## pedro420 (Apr 27, 2012)

I agree with 48 

I always deal with the same guy when I go into the store I think that's why he cuts deals and plus I'm always there buying things for my fish 

Here in about 2 weeks I'm going to be dropping about 200$ in the store so I'm going to try and get him to work on some deals


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## jsamuel24 (Apr 27, 2012)

So guys, I need your expertice.

I am converting one of my cabinets in my garage as a clone starter and a mother plant veg area. Was planing on using 2 foot t5hos in it, but my problem is I have 22 1/2 inches to work with and the smallest fixture I can find is 23 1/4 inches. I havent used 2 footers before so I am not exactly sure of how long the bulbs are. I am thinking of taking one of the old shelves that was in the cab and making a fixture with that, but I need your guys expertice to A let me know if that will cause major problems and B if it will fit. I may end up having to use t8's to do it with some of the par t8's till i have cash to afford t5 ballasts but I assume that it would work the same weither its t5 or t8. Anyone have any advice on if its even possible to get it to fit in this cab? or am I going to have to use crappy CFL in there till I can afford LED for the cab? Thanks in advance.

Snoochie Boochies!


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## polyarcturus (Apr 27, 2012)

if you use the bare bulbs and sockets only with a piece of sheet metal above to act as a reflector that could work for the t5s. plus you could lower and raise the bulbs accordingly.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 27, 2012)

found a NICE deal on some good looking tents, you can always put them on their sides, that how i have my 5x5x7 right now.

http://www.discounttommy.com/p-37-earth-worth-32x32x63-mylar-hydro-shanty-hydroponics-indoor-grow-tent.aspx?CAWELAID=1057724139

BBB acredited and these are great for little minilabs im gonna buy one to convert into a lab/glove box hepa filter all that got a nice stainless steel table that will fit right in. the bottom shelf of the table is gonna be lit with 2ft t5 for tissue culture the upper area for work. now too find some really long gloves(im gonna glue 4' flanges to the tent and cut the fabric inside the flange out and attach the gloves to the flannge) and a good hepa filter, i just found hepa filter but im unsure how to go about cleaning it.


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## infinitalus (Apr 27, 2012)

Better deal on 4x8x6.5: 179.95 shipped to your door. Relatively quick shipping too.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pro-Reflective-Hydroponic-Mylar-Grow-Tent-8x4x6-5-Feet-/320807706946?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4ab1a12142#ht_2688wt_1396

I use this tent and love it. Ill be getting another eventually.


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## PetFlora (Apr 29, 2012)

Check out Banquet tents. They have a peak instead of flat top. Easy to hang fixtures, PLUS, room fr hot air to rise. Oh, and they are cheap


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## polyarcturus (Apr 29, 2012)

i dont need a big tent guys..i need a clean room. 

zilla 5.0 t12s 32w at foster and smiths for 13$


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 29, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> found a NICE deal on some good looking tents, you can always put them on their sides, that how i have my 5x5x7 right now.
> 
> http://www.discounttommy.com/p-37-earth-worth-32x32x63-mylar-hydro-shanty-hydroponics-indoor-grow-tent.aspx?CAWELAID=1057724139
> 
> BBB acredited and these are great for little minilabs im gonna buy one to convert into a lab/glove box hepa filter all that got a nice stainless steel table that will fit right in. the bottom shelf of the table is gonna be lit with 2ft t5 for tissue culture the upper area for work. now too find some really long gloves(im gonna glue 4' flanges to the tent and cut the fabric inside the flange out and attach the gloves to the flannge) and a good hepa filter, i just found hepa filter but im unsure how to go about cleaning it.


Uou know what's cool about this forum? Is that there are other subsections of this forum for this type of talk so you don't have to take a thread and turn it so far off track it loses what it was originally about.


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## infinitalus (Apr 30, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Uou know what's cool about this forum? Is that there are other subsections of this forum for this type of talk so you don't have to take a thread and turn it so far off track it loses what it was originally about.


Thread police.. wwhaaaambulance eta 5 min


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## polyarcturus (Apr 30, 2012)

this thread is about t5 and you need a place to grow in so its relevant, besides who cares. i wasted a post about good tents, you wasted a post on crying about a good deal. so whos post was more important?


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## polyarcturus (Apr 30, 2012)

this thread is about t5 PAR lighting. we as group have decided the best bulbs are FLORASUN, CORAL ENHANCER, UVL AQUA SUN, UVL REDSUN, basically any 6500k or 6700K is my preference. but i dont think anyone has lost track.... whats new? ultra plant growth hasnt come out and neither has anything else new....


FYI: guys any 4 bulb electronic t8 ballast is the same as a 2 bulb t5ho ballast. (a 2 bulb t8 ballast works for a single bulb t5) just letting you guys know.

found out why mt t12 ballast blew my bulbs, they where magnetic just said electronic on the front, god damn chinese.


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## AltarNation (Apr 30, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Uou know what's cool about this forum? Is that there are other subsections of this forum for this type of talk so you don't have to take a thread and turn it so far off track it loses what it was originally about.


Just can't stay away eh Lucius? I thought you left this thread because it's so off-topic? Yet you come 'round complaining how off-topic our thread still is... guess we have a fan in you after all.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 30, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> this thread is about t5 PAR lighting. we as group have decided the best bulbs are FLORASUN, CORAL ENHANCER, UVL AQUA SUN, UVL REDSUN, basically any 6500k or 6700K is my preference. but i dont think anyone has lost track.... whats new? ultra plant growth hasnt come out and neither has anything else new....
> 
> 
> FYI: guys any 4 bulb electronic t8 ballast is the same as a 2 bulb t5ho ballast. (a 2 bulb t8 ballast works for a single bulb t5) just letting you guys know.
> ...


I think as a group that is incorrect.


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## polyarcturus (Apr 30, 2012)

you excluded yourself remember....

well nmaybe i cant speak for every one but these are my favorite bulbs. and i dont think i would spend the extra cash on other bulbs that wont out preform.(hagen power glow, geissman, KZ ect)


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## PSUAGRO. (Apr 30, 2012)

The florasuns are great bulbs......the actnics not so much IMO...


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## LightLady (Apr 30, 2012)

yes, i am still around redoctober. that grow got hit with spidermites so i terminated it prematurely.

i then took one plant & vegged the hell out of it in a waterfarm to see what i would end up with [i have a tree!!] while waiting for redsuns to ship & am now in the 6th week of flower under 2] 8lamp t5 fixtures with 2-coral wave, 2-tropical wave, 1-redsun, 2-3000k & 1-6500k. [formed like a tee-pee]

there are lots of sticky buds & spidermites tried to get them but i was able to fend them off with an organic spray made with hot peppers [50,000+btu heat]. they drink alot of water....almost 1 gal. daily & seem to be doing well.

will take some snaps in the next couple of days to give you a look.

wbr,


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## polyarcturus (Apr 30, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> The florasuns are great bulbs......the actnics not so much IMO...



i dont reall think i picked any actinics in that selection, since the 10000k aqua sun has a nice spike at 620nm and a fairly strong red when compared side by side with an actinic it apperars pink.

the coral wave is specialty bulb and more of an add on than a usable light by itself, so once again im not sure if this would fall in actinic category or not. i personally say it not.


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## infinitalus (Apr 30, 2012)

LightLady said:


> yes, i am still around redoctober. that grow got hit with spidermites so i terminated it prematurely.
> 
> i then took one plant & vegged the hell out of it in a waterfarm to see what i would end up with [i have a tree!!] while waiting for redsuns to ship & am now in the 6th week of flower under 2] 8lamp t5 fixtures with 2-coral wave, 2-tropical wave, 1-redsun, 2-3000k & 1-6500k. [formed like a tee-pee]
> 
> ...


Pepper juice? Idk if id want that around my ladies.


Ive found that 1/2 tsp rosemary oil per gallon of water with literally a tiny DROP of dish soap as a spray works wonders for mites. I sprayed once, waited three days, did it again. I now have zero mites and havent had a problem since.


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## infinitalus (Apr 30, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i dont reall think i picked any actinics in that selection, since the 10000k aqua sun has a nice spike at 620nm and a fairly strong red when compared side by side with an actinic it apperars pink.
> 
> the coral wave is specialty bulb and more of an add on than a usable light by itself, so once again im not sure if this would fall in actinic category or not. i personally say it not.


Poly, do you have the spectral graph for the 10k aqua sun? Id like to see it


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## polyarcturus (Apr 30, 2012)

http://www.uvlco.com/AquariumT5.html


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## infinitalus (Apr 30, 2012)

I wasnt aware You were walking about UVL.

I think the aqua life 420/460 is the way to go for blue and the florasun for red, maybe a red sun here and there instead of a flora. I still want to see the 660 SPD and the fiji purple SPD when altar gets it to Jeff.


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## hammer21 (Apr 30, 2012)

Hello all I have a badboy 16 bulb really leaning towards using 8 quantum bloom and 8 giesmann aquaflora has any one used this combo. I want to only use 2 types of bulbs to keep the light close.
I already have the quantum bloom bulbs


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## Lucius Vorenus (Apr 30, 2012)

hammer21 said:


> Hello all I have a badboy 16 bulb really leaning towards using 8 quantum bloom and 8 giesmann aquaflora has any one used this combo. I want to only use 2 types of bulbs to keep the light close.
> I already have the quantum bloom bulbs



Add in 6 Flora Sun Bulbs. Thats all I run with my Bloom Bulbs and it grows big buds that are rock solid. Don't believe the hype that you need to buy all these fancy bulbs. These guys just haven't figured it out yet. Follow my grow in my signature.


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## hammer21 (May 1, 2012)

Thanks Lucius going to take your advice your grow looks great I will be doing a scrog with 6 under the badboy 16 going with a 50/50 mix 8 quantum blooms and 8 flora suns. Thanks again......


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## PetFlora (May 1, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> http://www.uvlco.com/AquariumT5.html


I have this bulb with reflector. Good for veg, though perhaps too much blue for Sats. I interpret the 620 "nice spike" as more of a small bump. 

If you didn't have ZooMed FloraSuns (an excellent spectral blend IMHO), a vg combination would be UVL; Aquasun + Red Life + 660 for flower, BUT, the AS provides a lot of blue, so maybe only 1/8 for flowering.

My Flower combination is 2/8 FloraSuns + 2/8 Coral Waves + 2/8 Red Lifes + 1/8 660 (cause I only have one) leaving me one slot to fill, most likely use my Quantum Flower OR another Red Life (I have 3), OR a Quantum Grow should I need a bit more blue balance. If I didn't have the Red Life and 660, I would add another FloraSun. *LV* has it right

I continue to be amazed at how fast the 2 plants in my *21st Century F & D rig *are growing, considering their canopy is currently ~ 8" below the bulbs. Still, they are growing at the same rate as the other plants which are ~ 3" below the bulbs. 

Table height for *21st Century F & D rig * is ~5" lower than my HPA table. I plan to even them out this morning, as I have too much tilt (~ 5") in the fixture..


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## polyarcturus (May 1, 2012)

i have honestly been amazed with the aquasuns and plan on getting some more.florasun zoomed and the uvl aquasun are perfect for veg in a 1-1 ratio. im supposed to get my florasun by the 3rd plan on doing an update. then im about to order some coral waves, reptisun 5.0 (on sale right now 32w t12 foster and smith) and aqauasuns and then another oder for some more flora suns and redsuns or the 660nm depending on how i feel. im about to swap one of my 400w HID for a 6 bulb t5 soon.


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## PetFlora (May 1, 2012)

*poly,* where/how are you putting/implementing the repti-sun(s). Are they IR, or UVb? , separate timer? I realized with my BB that there is no back plate, and the reflectors hook together, so IR could be dropped through, but wattage has to be low. What is wattage?

*RE: Aquasuns.* As you know ASs have a very strong B/G/Y band. FloraSuns actually have ample blue for _either grow, or, flower_. Due to that, my recommendation (not that you asked) is to start with no more than 2/5 ASs. By mid flower I would replace the ASs with UVL 660s (keeping in mind the FloraSuns have enough blue for this phase. That combination could be killer.

Keep us posted. RU doin a blog here?


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## polyarcturus (May 1, 2012)

nah im not rreally doing a blog, im not what you would call "friendly" im pretty lonley so i just update randomly when i feel like showing off.


the reptisun are UVB! and UVB is my favorite spectrum of light! better than blue and red but useless by itself! the coral waves are for IR and far red

i noticed your paragraphs are very elequent, is this because you are a perfectionist? or just prefer for people to understand.

i rarely spend time editing myself, i have terrible spelling probably should srry to get off topic


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## PSUAGRO. (May 1, 2012)

^^^^Yes Pet is somewhat of a grammar nazisorry pet..............ha........he just expects the most out of uskiss-ass


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## LightLady (May 1, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Pepper juice? Idk if id want that around my ladies.
> 
> 
> Ive found that 1/2 tsp rosemary oil per gallon of water with literally a tiny DROP of dish soap as a spray works wonders for mites. I sprayed once, waited three days, did it again. I now have zero mites and havent had a problem since.


yea, i hear you.....& i felt the same way until i met a master grower who swore by hot peppers in the 150k+ heat variety, advising that mylady wouldn't be adversely affected but the mites would hit the road. the 150k harbenero was too much heat for me to handle, so i tried the slightly lower variety [50k+] & it did the trick. [if you ever tried to breathe it in closed quarters you would well know why]
the buds are growing nicely, super sticky with a sweet aroma, so apparently after the pepper does its duty its' offensive properties are dissipated.

i had tried several other treatments, including rosemary oil [but w/o dish soap] & they temporarily alieviated the issue, but not as well as the peppers. i also have a companion rosemary plant growing in the room.

if mites should reappear in the next couple of weeks-before i harvest- i will give your formula a try. thanks
hopefully we will have neither rosemary or spicy pepper seasoned herb in our T5 spectral quest for quality bud..............or perhaps we will,,, forming a new paradigm> FLAVORED GOURMET THC


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## falcon223 (May 1, 2012)

Just a pit. I used to grow tomatoes out side, there be bugs out there. Well I would plant Marigolds, between the plants. 

Marigolds are poisonous. The bugs did not give me trouble. Only the birds.


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## polyarcturus (May 1, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Just a pit. I used to grow tomatoes out side, there be bugs out there. Well I would plant Marigolds, between the plants.
> 
> Marigolds are poisonous. The bugs did not give me trouble. Only the birds.


jus planted a bunch of marigold seeds in the flower bed today, i may have to grow a few indoors if they work good for mites and i may have to pot some for my veggies, i have been worrying about outdoors bugs but havent got any yet, just put the plants outside(again) today they where loving it! hope it doesn't chill down where im at.


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## infinitalus (May 1, 2012)

lol gourmet rosemary hash?

I used to use dish soap along the outer foundation of my moms house out in the country to get rid of tiny pests and ants except in a much higher concentration. Worked very well. The rosemary disorients them and the soap burns them, an effective double whammy.


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## infinitalus (May 1, 2012)

Petflora, for UVB you definitely want minute quantities (he is doing the 5.0) or you will be getting premature maturation of buds.

I found a lot of different reports on UVB usage and decided to try for myself.

Im using 2x reptiglo 10.0 24w CFLs about 10-12" away from my plants. Theyre on a separate timer for 4 hours a day during the middle of the photoperiod. 4 hours without, 4 hours with, 4 hours without. The sugar leaves have gotten darker and shine with resin acting as sun screen. Red hairs appear to be more so on this side of the plant than the other without UVB. Appears to make no difference on trichome production but the resin glands have been swelling quite a bit. For my knee pain, I like a little more CBD so it works out well.

Using polys method of T12 UVB will work as long as it goes on a timer and isnt TOO close to the plants.


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## FilthyFletch (May 1, 2012)

I know this is old but even back then the issue wasnt they didnt grow well they break down the thc and grow nice buds with a low thc count..


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## hyroot (May 1, 2012)

Thay dr. Foster and smith site is screwy. They keep changing their prices through out the day. They cant decide if they are having a sale or not.

This morning they said they were having a 2 week sale ending may 14. An hour later I went on to make an order. Sale is gone. Then I went back on from my phone an hour ago. Sale is back on. Just now I went back on the site on pc and phone and no more sale. The flora suns were 11.49, 12.49, 14.27. Now 14.99. Wtf.....


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## polyarcturus (May 1, 2012)

i thought the sale was till the end of this month. 

Hyroot, UV (even the 10.0) is okay to run all 12 hours, i run mine 11 hours with my MH and my hps 12 hours. the key is that they are not too close but the amount of UV from these bulbs are like 1/10 the intensity of the sun you really only have to worry about problems if all the light from the bulb is focused on a single spot. in fact UV light is most useful as side lighting, and the tube are the best choice for UV suppliment since the light is very spread out.

another thing im using the cfls(x2 10.0 exoterra) currently but for a price like 13$ a tube cant miss out, plus i think the coverage will be better than the cfls.
but those cfls pack a wallop thats for sure.

oh yeah i forgot to say the UV expert around here is gastanker, he does some crazy shit with the reptile bulbs, most of this info is from him

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/507322-uvb-full-12-hours-during-2.html 

good info over here as far as understanding microwatts in actual action, distance plays into UV alot.



having fun FF?


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## infinitalus (May 1, 2012)

yeah I figured 10-12" away was good enough and I was right. I still dont have enough UVB, but this isnt the time to fret about that with very tight money restrictions at this point. Just put my name on a few housing applications. Time to get the ball rolling in that court.

Ill be picking up a few smaller standing lamps for my CFLs for adequate central UVB. I have 4x 2 lamp HO T8 fixtures which I can use for UVB side lighting.

So far, the results of using the UVB for just 4 hours a day has been beneficial. If texas gets ~ 220mW of UVB, imagine what Afghanistan and India is like. When my roomie came home from the Army says he said the best marijuana hes ever saw came from Afghanistan, and he has seen all sorts of the stuff Ive had. I was indeed jealous..


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## Kite High (May 1, 2012)

there are NO cfls which provide anywhere near the 150-500 uw/cm2 required for the uvb effect

these t 5's DO provide it though:

http://www.lightyourreptiles.com/ard3t546in54.html

With a solartech 6.2 uvb meter at 12 inches from the bulb 431/uw/cm2

here at 7300 ft elevation in NM at 2 pm uvb reading 411/uw/cm2....

greatest level measured in nature thus far was 530/uw/cm2


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## polyarcturus (May 2, 2012)

Kite High said:


> there are NO cfls which provide anywhere near the 150-500 uw/cm2 required for the uvb effect
> 
> these t 5's DO provide it though:
> 
> ...


your wrong it intensity the cfl will put off plenty at close range plus the more of them you the more effective they will be, yeah i know about Arcadia bulbs they are not available in america right now or i would have them. microwatts stack so to speak and most measurements are made at distances further than i would have the bulbs to my plants and if you go the thread i linked earlier, you will see he is using tanning bulbs which put off the ultimate amount of UVB. and the difference between my buds with and without UVB is nite and day, 1 cfl at the top of a single plant within 12inches will have a noticeable affect. 2 cfl next to each other above 1 plants within 12 inches and you will start seeing big differences...... my first exp. with UVB was i killed a plant and had harvest another plant early, so i know it works with one cfl(exoterra reptiglo 10.0 to be specific)


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## Kite High (May 2, 2012)

you are mistaken...I ordered the Arcadias and received them from the very link I posted...the co. is in Maine

Also side lighting the plants with uvb has proven better results than overhead

View attachment 2150467
http://www.solarmeter.com/model62.html

And at 1 inch the 23 watt 10.0 cfls only emit 35 uw/cm2 as per measurements with the above meter...the range to produce the effect is 150-500 uw/cm2 which the cfls will never produce at any number or distance... Yes I have said meter and have taken readings on so many bulbs...this is why I use arcadias and megaray zoos...the meter doesnt lie nor does the herb

I keep it at 300-400 the entire grow with the megaray zoo bulbs and arcadias and both thc and thcv levels were increased compared to lab results from control bud...best was about 10% increase in thcv and 6% in thc...go above 500 uw/cm2 and the yield suffers with no apparent gain over the 400 level

http://www.reptileuv.com/megaray-eb-60-watt-flood-zoo-lamp-kit.php

more uppy creeper and longer lasting high were the effects reported by smokers in comparison


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## polyarcturus (May 2, 2012)

i already said that UV lighting was better on the side, i dont know the actual readings for the cfls but im sure their higher than that, how did i kill my plants? shit was rolling good, i havent had a case of sids for 3 years!(at least not in a plant that old- 2 weeks into flower)

yeahi have been looking into MV lights im thinking of adding it to my grow, hell i might even do a 400w! but im undecided, these spectrums from fluorescents are amazing and much easier to manipulate the light spectrums to have closer ratios, to that which occur in nature.

yes the creeper effect, is it really credited to thcv? that is interestin and the first time i have really heard that... but cannabis synthesis is long book i havenot really broken into, alas no lab to do testing, so no desire. but maybe one day.


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## polyarcturus (May 2, 2012)

i dont know tho anyways im not the uv expert i just roll with the shit i can afford and are common. if they where accessible like up the street or a major website for a lower price id be more interested. its just i believe in quality, but not to the point where im spending LED money.

i mean what did i cost them to make that bulb, i believe all they have to do is skimp on a specific layer of phosphor.


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## PetFlora (May 2, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> ^^^^Yes Pet is somewhat of a grammar nazisorry pet..............ha........he just expects the most out of uskiss-ass



Thanks for noticing. I write for a number of different mediums where communication accuracy is critical. I expect a lot out of myself to learn, grow, correct mistakes, move to higher ground. Also, the PTB (powers that be) are desperate to dumb us and down and keep us there. That alone is reason enough


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## PetFlora (May 2, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Petflora, for UVB you definitely want minute quantities (he is doing the 5.0) or you will be getting premature maturation of buds.
> 
> I found a lot of different reports on UVB usage and decided to try for myself.
> 
> ...


That sounds like a good plan. I use a Repti-Glo 10.0, as side lighting, in my starter tent. 

I have it on excellent authority that IR for ~ 10 minutes immediately after lights out is very beneficial as well.


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## AltarNation (May 2, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Thanks for noticing. I write for a number of different mediums where communication accuracy is critical. I expect a lot out of myself to learn, grow, correct mistakes, move to higher ground. Also, the PTB (powers that be) are desperate to dumb us and down and keep us there. That alone is reason enough


Well said, PF! I am also a fan of accuracy of communication methods in any and all mediums. And fuck them powers that be.


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## PetFlora (May 2, 2012)

Started a new Journal. See my sig. 

I have not yet posted anything regarding lighting choice. Probably add that later. 


*What ever happened to Pr0f or his new bulb?*


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## Kite High (May 2, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i dont know tho anyways im not the uv expert i just roll with the shit i can afford and are common. if they where accessible like up the street or a major website for a lower price id be more interested. its just i believe in quality, but not to the point where im spending LED money.
> 
> i mean what did i cost them to make that bulb, i believe all they have to do is skimp on a specific layer of phosphor.



It is moreso the glass than the phosphor coating which allows the uvb to escape...I tested Exo-terra and and Zoo med 23 watt cfls and the best they did on the meter was the 35 uw/cm2...also it seems that uvb levels drop off even faster than lumens with distance...also the glass in the cfls polarizes after 6 mos and barely emit any uvb

I agree that the arcadia are expensive but they work so it is worth it

I have not witnessed premature pistil reddening nor increase in resin production, nor any change in flower times...When I first attempted it with cfls etc this did occur but IMO it was from the heat from having to keep them 1" away which still wasn't enough uvb

I too am befuddled as to what causes creeper effect as well...I suspect it is other lesser known cannabinoids or a combo of things but it is definitely greatly enhanced by uvb

hope it helps...jus saying


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## polyarcturus (May 2, 2012)

i was also reading about the differences in glass this seems to be the problem with using commercial MV bulbs.

i dont know exactly which ones yet but some MV bulbs are made from UV resistant glass and others have a coating that could be washed off the glass.

another thing i wanted to note, according to one website, the meters are not an accurate tool for measurement. they say that yes they measure the uvb spectrum but not to a degree of accuracy that they can give actual number to the amount emited. the meters simply tell how much(%) of the spectrum is in the UVB range, they even tell you not to compare result from between bulbs. this is usefull, but not the deteriming factor in the quantity a UV bulb produces.

i knew the bulbs had to be replaced every six monthes now i know why thx for that little tidbit of info.


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## polyarcturus (May 2, 2012)

thinking about getting one of these...http://www.staytannorth.com/400wclipin.html... who here has the ball to have this light bulb 6 inches from their face?

i dont know where to get the specs for these bulbs, but these are probably just what i need..


also found out cfl uvb bulbs have a 150 hour burn in period where uv is greater than normal, and that the older design uvb cfls where janky and alot of them produced a LARGE amount of uv and where burning eyes, well im about to head to a couple stores and look for some older cfl bulbs! seems this problem has only recently(like in the last year/2011) been corrected


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## Kite High (May 2, 2012)

the meter is centered at 295 nm and what they are implying is that if the spectrum of the bulb is highest in this range it will fool the meter into reading higher than the overall output of uvb of another bulb which is not as active at that nm

tanning bulbs are mostly uva

sterilization bulbs are uvc

the mega ray externally ballasted 60 ZOO lamps produced the highest numbers of all...while the meter is not the most accurate it will tell you if the lamp will meet the level;s you need way better than anything else would without paying thousands of dollars...afterall it does not require high accuracy as the range of energy is quite wide which will produce the sought after effects

And please do not think I am attempting to argue...just sharing info and data that I have found chasing this uvb thing down....main thing I want to stress is it is definitely worth the effort as it produces the trippy creeper high I loved in the 70's back into my life


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## polyarcturus (May 2, 2012)

sounds good, i think i will run a comparsion between a few bulbs when i have time, but research is research and i have pretty much come to the same conclusion as you(that ZOO lamps are the way to go or arcadia) just trying to find chaper and better, well, decent sources.


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## PetFlora (May 3, 2012)

Kite High said:


> you are mistaken...I ordered the Arcadias and received them from the very link I posted...the co. is in Maine
> 
> Also side lighting the plants with uvb has proven better results than overhead
> 
> ...


Excellent 411. How many MegaRays for a 2 x 4 area? As side lighting it seems one has to spread the plants apart, which I can do.


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## PetFlora (May 3, 2012)

I am lovin this UVb info, but thinking so would most growers. I think it deserves it's own thread. Let me know if you do one.


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## Endur0xX (May 3, 2012)

I have the exo terra 125 Watt at 14 inches from my plant going on and off 3 times during the 12hours of light for a total of about 6-7 hours, is this too much? so far things are looking great but it's just starting to bud..


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## polyarcturus (May 3, 2012)

the needed time to get full effect from UV light is 3-4 hours a day, at what would be considered mid day, there is no thing as too much time under UV, unless its some really intense shit, like x2 MV bulbs 160w over a 2x2 area for all 12 hours. i would run my UV close to the full amount of time the lights are on to get full effect, stunting will be minimal if you keep the UV levels fairly low.

@PETFLORA well in pretty much in the same sit. i got a 3x5 om gonna do x2 arcadia t5ho soon or x2 100w MV or x1 160w MV.


after much research on commercial MV and MH bulbs as a source of UV, the conclusion is they are useless with out proper "FILTER" glass known as hard glass or specially designed borosilicate glass(much $) to filter the UV from the bulbs. without these types of glass, the UV from a commercial bulb would be dangerous levels of UV and was the source of problems with ZOO lamps external ballasted MH reptile bulb.

also did you guys know there are some amazing multivapor bulbs out there? they have combined HID and florescent in one bulb, increased lumens and CRI, im thinking about trying one out.


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## PetFlora (May 3, 2012)

I am having an issue with my T5- the tombstone that the bulb electrodes slot into (looks like an upside-down miniature tombstone) melted the green plastic locking ring which caused the bulb to fall out. Fortunately it did not break or damage any plants. I have a call into Quantum now, but they are not yet open. 

Also, following PSUAGROs lead, I decided to swap out my CWS for AquaSuns-- for now. Will probably go back to the CWs in late flower

*EDIT 1:40: *Called Quantum at 11 am, spoke with tech. The tombstone melted enough to be unusable. Tech told me the cause was ARCHING due to the arms being too wide. When they are too wide you get minimal contact between bulb electrodes and tombstones. You account for this by adjusting a small 1/2' X 1.5" strap, located under the reflectors, directly above the spine (holds the ballasts). The strap holds the 2 arms in place. 

He had me drill the *strap* holes larger so I could squeeze the arms closer. While there i took out the bad tombstone, which was closest to the spine and swapped it with a good one from the end. Now I have 6 bulbs adjacent. 2.5 hours later all is well, but will have to take it down and apart again when I get the replacement tombstone. Had I bought 2 @ 4 bulb all I would need to do is spin one fixture 180 degrees to match up 6 bulbs. 

Job done!


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## kpmarine (May 3, 2012)

If only I lived in So-Cal.... http://www.propertyroom.com/l/quantum-horticulture-lighting-fixture/8464997


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## PetFlora (May 4, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> after much research on commercial MV and MH bulbs as a source of UV, the conclusion is they are useless with out proper "FILTER" glass known as hard glass or specially designed borosilicate glass(much $) to filter the UV from the bulbs. without these types of glass, the UV from a commercial bulb would be dangerous levels of UV and was the source of problems with ZOO lamps external ballasted MH reptile bulb.


Are you saying DO NOT get a Zoo with external ballast?


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## polyarcturus (May 4, 2012)

no the external ballast is fine and the MV bulb is fine, its the design of their MH bulb that is dangerous, so dont get the MH bulbs, but they are out of stock anyways right now. i think they use the same ballasts for MH as MV, i dont kno i would have at look at the wattage for the MH. 

anyways thought i would update prefer not to waste a new post so im gonna edit this one,

ahhhh the super cucumber, he is HUGE! my mother under the x2 florasuns x2 aquasuns and a 420 and 460 nm ,in some big ass pots getting ready to be flowered off in a few months in preparation to buy a house and move, and that little one is WOODYS HAZE a local srain dont know anything about it other than its a clone. got it from a friend but he keeps calling it an autoflower and i keep laughing at him because the plant would already be flowering as a clone if it was, some people just wont listen.
got some big yeild coming do know what i ahve been doin but its been right these guys especily the one on the right are looking like 2oz ea.
you can see the "staircase" look on the left, each group 1 week apart, on the right the whole cannopy and all my bud s hiding in there.
 got my order of florasun put some in the veg and 2 over flowering and dimmed my HPS because of the heat. this is just prep for when i get the arcadias in the next month or so..

also fosters sen me these awesome cardboard tubes that are super thick and the perfect thing to make a reflector/s with. split down the middle cut to size line with hvac tape cut holes for tombstones there you go! perfect DIY reflector


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## Dr.J20 (May 4, 2012)

this is awesome, totally sub'd but anyone want to help me do a pro/con for deciding between doing a total HOT5 grow and just vegging with the T5 and going 600w HPS for flower? 4x4x6 space for flower, and i do want to keep electricity costs down so if ventilation plus initial outlays are gonna be too high for keeping it cool with the hps, thats a major negatory
be easy


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## polyarcturus (May 5, 2012)

well to be honest i veg with t5 and flower with HID. the real upside to flowering with HID is that the plants can get a little large without worrying about losing to much yeild because of distance from light to buds. the upside to flowering with t5 is the spectrum choices you can make and the temps, but the fact that you cant have the bud far from the light means you will have to grow more small plants. personally i would run a combo of HID and t5 for flower, hps for the reds and a 6 bulb system to cover the rest of the spectrum, x2 coralwave or actinics fo some sort, x2 arcadia UVB t5, x2 florasun and then a 4 bulb or another 6 bulb t5 for veg.


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## Kite High (May 5, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> no the external ballast is fine and the MV bulb is fine, its the design of their MH bulb that is dangerous, so dont get the MH bulbs, but they are out of stock anyways right now. i think they use the same ballasts for MH as MV, i dont kno i would have at look at the wattage for the MH.
> 
> anyways thought i would update prefer not to waste a new post so im gonna edit this one,
> 
> ...


I have two megaray's 60 watts Zoo external ballasted and 2 megaray 70 Zoo megaray mh...they are more useful IMO as they give off a light that the plants want...mv has a horrible plant spectrum...also the externally ballasted lamps remain viable 18 or more months whereas the internally ballasted ones only 6-8 months...reason being is that the internally ballasted actually are ignited using a filament which adds lots of heat which in turn polarizing the glass quicker thereby dropping uvb production quicker...if they are still out of stock you can get an externally ballasted 60 watt mv but not a zoo model for a smaller area you can check this out
http://www.westronlighting.com/reptile-lighting/reptile-health/

you have to write them for the externally ballasted 60 watters

they were 2 for $40 when I bought mine...I use it in my femming areas


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## polyarcturus (May 5, 2012)

Kite High said:


> I have two megaray's 60 watts Zoo external ballasted and 2 megaray 70 Zoo megaray mh...they are more useful IMO as they give off a light that the plants want...mv has a horrible plant spectrum...also the externally ballasted lamps remain viable 18 or more months whereas the internally ballasted ones only 6-8 months...reason being is that the internally ballasted actually are ignited using a filament which adds lots of heat which in turn polarizing the glass quicker thereby dropping uvb production quicker...if they are still out of stock you can get an externally ballasted 60 watt mv but not a zoo model for a smaller area you can check this out
> http://www.westronlighting.com/reptile-lighting/reptile-health/
> 
> you have to write them for the externally ballasted 60 watters
> ...



will do thanks man, i like the idea of using MH over mv personally too. yeah im sure ZOO fixed the issues with the glass by now its was just something that came up during my reading. if westron will offer me the same deal i would be very pleased.


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## PetFlora (May 5, 2012)

*Drj20:* I grow _and_ flower under T5s. In your space consider 2-3 @ 4 bulb fixtures. An 8 bulb is too small, plus a bit unwieldy for bulb changes. You could put one each in the far sides (leaving you a center isle) + one vertically on the far wall for side lighting. I am looking into eshines new 2 ft Wall Washers (leds) for side lighting. 

Last flowering I was using *Coral Waves + Red Lifes + FloraSuns*. The plant was a Sat, and grew over 7Ft. I snapped it at 3ft and eventually had to LST it across and under the bulbs because it outgrew available height. 

Everything looked terrific until my pH meter started giving false readings. I kept adding more and more acid. At first I thought maybe my acid was old, as I never needed this much acid before. Leaves were turning ash gray, so I called Hanna. They said meters last a couple years, but I had replaced the probe about 6 months prior. Makes no difference. So I bought a new meter, but it was DOA; by the time I got the new new meter 2 weeks had passed. I lost at least half the yield due to plants burning up from the inside. Between that grow and this one, HO T5s easily penetrate 12"

New plants are Indica dom; two months old, they are ~ 15"; growth has slowed, so thinking to flip in ~ 5 days. 

During early flower I will use *UVL AquaSuns + Coral Waves + FloraSuns* and *UVL Red Lifes*. From mid-flower on will replace either one *AS* with a 3rd *Red Life* + adding a *UVL 66**0.*


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## C.Indica (May 5, 2012)

But guys, you'll save 60% or more by making the switch to incandescent!
Who can beat over 200 years of proven technology?
Not to mention, how much more american do you get?

With their amazing 3000k light spectrum,
they make great flowering bulbs.

They're super cheap too,
I've got a 900w incandescent grow at 6 weeks flowering myself.

Come on guys, what are you waiting for?


----------



## kpmarine (May 5, 2012)

c.indica said:


> but guys, you'll save 60% or more by making the switch to incandescent!
> Who can beat over 200 years of proven technology?
> Not to mention, how much more american do you get?
> 
> ...


do not feed the troll please! ^^^


----------



## C.Indica (May 5, 2012)

Bahaha I'm only screwing with you guys.
I've been reading this thread for ages, I just never post.
By the way, incandescents are the way of the future.
They've already out-performed Plasma Lighting.


----------



## kpmarine (May 5, 2012)

Haven't seen you around in a while. lol Where did you get this info?


----------



## C.Indica (May 5, 2012)

Yea I don't post much these days.
I got the info from a highly informed ethopian cannabis scientist hiding away in New Mexico.
Alright I'm done with this.


----------



## kpmarine (May 5, 2012)

Sounds legit... <_< >_>


----------



## Dr.J20 (May 5, 2012)

Thanks for the advice guys, I'm still working out my thoughts on this whole thing... I was set on going for a 6 bulb badboy for veg and an 8 bulb for flower following the Pr0fessur's bulb patterns, but now I'm thinking about reconsidering the HID...maybe my plan for the grow will help yall give me a better idea of my choices: I want to start 5 girls from seeds (fem'd seeds) and after they've been established and veged for 4 weeks take a clone from each, and let the donors recover for a week while the clones start to establish. I would then just keep the clones alive under 24hrs of light, slowly veging during the entire flower process of the original 5. When the seed generation is ready to harvest, I take the 2nd generation of clones from the 1st, and send the 1st into flower; ~75 days later the 1st Gen clones are ready to harvest and the 2nd Gens donate a clone each and so on until the 3rd generation of clones is complete. If this is the route i'm taking, would a 600w HPS be better in the flower room, and just suck it up and deal with electricity cost and buying a fan and worrying about dissipating heat etc...

i hope someone reads all this

my preference is T5 still right now,
let me know what yall think!
be easy


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## polyarcturus (May 5, 2012)

5 plants go t5 keep em short.

6 bulb and 8 bulb can handle a pretty big load by themselves i was just unsure of your goals. with a cycle like that t5 would be perfect no need for hid you can fit 5 decent plants under an 8 bulb t5 and do well.

but t5 doesnt really save elec or $ just provide different light i would use about the same amount of watts going HID or FLouro, might be able to skimp a 100watts or so on the flouro but that doesn't count for much maybe 4-7$ a month. and fans are pretty efficient 120watts of inline fan power gets you 400cfm. that's enough to cool a single 1000w, x2 600w if they are placed close together and x3 400w placed close together.
a 80w 4in inline fan doing around 200cfm is all you need for x2 400w placed close together.(these fan and light combos are a circuit without a filter, just lights)

beside when you run flouro you have to have a lot of internal air movement, average oscillating fan is 20w x3 which is the norm for flouro grow puts you 90 watts then you still need an exhaust fan...

so stop while your ahead these #s will only confuse you, either way is a great way to go, understanding the style is key, like i said the way your thinking i would go with T5 and add side lighting in the flower room, like the 8 bulb up top and a 4 bulb on the wall, the 6 bulb will be just fine for veg.


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## kpmarine (May 6, 2012)

I missed what your growing medium is, but you're looking at vegging those clones for 6 weeks minimum. That's alot of growth time for a clone. Hell, 15 days in dwc will get you a plant as big as a 5 gal bucket from a rooted 4" clone. Don't forget to keep that in mind.


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## Isisyogi (May 6, 2012)

I have read most of this thread and by the end, I get a bit lost. Think the missing pages had info I was looking for. Forgive me if this is a repeat question but I want to be certain I have the most up to date info. 

I recently purchased a 2', 4 bulb viavolt T5 (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202985194/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=Viavolt&storeId=10051 ) so that I could keep a few mother plants in a 2x3 tent. I wasn't planning on changing the bulbs since they are decent for veg I'm told. 

I just reconfigured my grow space, finding that it might be in my best interest to light a 2x3x4.5' flowering cab with t5s because the 600 hps really heats up my hydro reservoir. 

Few Qs:

Flowering with a 4 bulb, which 4 bulbs would provide the spectrum needed for flower? Order?



Flowering with an 8 bulb, which 8 bulbs? And the order?

I realize the last one is discussed quite a bit, but Professor had managed to make an easy to read sequential list without all the techy info. I was planning on following that, but realize that in the 2 years since he posted it there have probably been some updates or advances on the matter. 

The 4 bulb question is the most important and relevant to me. Your input is appreciated.


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## Dr.J20 (May 6, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> 5 plants go t5 keep em short....
> 
> beside when you run flouro you have to have a lot of internal air movement, average oscillating fan is 20w x3 which is the norm for flouro grow puts you 90 watts then you still need an ex...
> 
> so stop while your ahead these #s will only confuse you, either way is a great way to go, understanding the style is key, like i said the way your thinking i would go with T5 and add side lighting in the flower room, like the 8 bulb up top and a 4 bulb on the wall, the 6 bulb will be just fine for veg.


Thanks polyarcturus; perhaps knowing that this is all going to be taking place in an attic grow space will change things because what i'm really concerned about with an HID is all that heat; but if you're saying the badboys aren't gonna save on heat then i may as well invest the money in an HID and air cooled hood rather than multiple T5 fixtures

KPmarine, probably just gonna be dirty again--i like to grow in global bucket/earthbox modified containers but also just plain ole soil (of course, i guess there's also the few hempy's i've tried)...i would be bonsai growing those clones, and potentially keeping them suspended the first 4 weeks, that way my flower room wont get too crowded. I'm not really trying for a full perpetual, just a semi perpetual for a couple generations, shut down for a bit, then back up for another few.

let me know what yall think...im leaning hid plus cfl supplements for flower, t5 veg now
be easy


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## AltarNation (May 6, 2012)

Just gonna throw this out there, T5's do produce a decent amount of heat but they don't really compare to HID heat. Air-cooled hoods are a nice addition but you lose a significant amount of light and UV to the glass barrier. I honestly think in an attic you are going to be requiring a separate air cooled exhaust line (which most likely means a second in-line fan if you want it to happen efficiently)

Just my 2 cents. Are you in a southern state? Even in a northern state I find that attics get unbearably hot. Is your attic insulated?


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## PetFlora (May 6, 2012)

Depending on how big your attic grow is going to be they are finally making some pretty good LED fixtures- eshines Wall Washers or LEDgrow.eu - $500 gets you 2 fixtures @ 20 x 24. Design is ~ 3 years in R & D. He posted his own grows


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## polyarcturus (May 6, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> Thanks polyarcturus; perhaps knowing that this is all going to be taking place in an attic grow space will change things because what i'm really concerned about with an HID is all that heat; but if you're saying the badboys aren't gonna save on heat then i may as well invest the money in an HID and air cooled hood rather than multiple T5 fixtures
> 
> KPmarine, probably just gonna be dirty again--i like to grow in global bucket/earthbox modified containers but also just plain ole soil (of course, i guess there's also the few hempy's i've tried)...i would be bonsai growing those clones, and potentially keeping them suspended the first 4 weeks, that way my flower room wont get too crowded. I'm not really trying for a full perpetual, just a semi perpetual for a couple generations, shut down for a bit, then back up for another few.
> 
> ...




to be 100% with you money is not gonna matter either way i would spend he same amount on a 600w HID and fan as i would a 8 bulb and 4 bulb t5, maybe a little more for the t5. but money isnt really the problem here, remember that, having extra equip is the way of the game. and say you go t5 you might find a deal on a 600w later.

check CL for t5 fixtures. best deals straight up.

so what im saying is GO T5 you will have heat probs in the attic with HID. forget about how much your gonna spend and start just being a cheap bastard like me.(on most things at least, some things you just cant skimp on) T5 lights over soil beds in the attic, 5 plants bonzai style, 12 bulbs for flower 6 bulbs for veg, sounds like a game plan!


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## Dr.J20 (May 6, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> so what im saying is GO T5 you will have heat probs in the attic with HID. forget about how much your gonna spend and start just being a cheap bastard like me.(on most things at least, some things you just cant skimp on) T5 lights over soil beds in the attic, 5 plants bonzai style, 12 bulbs for flower 6 bulbs for veg, sounds like a game plan!


Thanks man, this is what i was thinking too, probably should've included the attic part from the get-go --i'm looking forward to going t5 and seeing what i can produce, 
be easy


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## TenEmies (May 6, 2012)

Whats your dry weight? Off T5? I get 1.5 pounds off one thousand watt. Maybe good for small personal grower but probley no huge colas..


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## polyarcturus (May 6, 2012)

TenEmies said:


> Whats your dry weight? Off T5? I get 1.5 pounds off one thousand watt. Maybe good for small personal grower but probley no huge colas..



all that for one post? lol. well i doubt he is growing trees first off and second off, 1000watts of cfl i could grow the same amount of bud as 1000w HID just spread over a larger surface area. dont be a troll, i could outgrow you using the "state of the art" incandescent.


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## Isisyogi (May 7, 2012)

Isisyogi said:


> I have read most of this thread and by the end, I get a bit lost. Think the missing pages had info I was looking for. Forgive me if this is a repeat question but I want to be certain I have the most up to date info.
> 
> I recently purchased a 2', 4 bulb viavolt T5 (http://www.homedepot.com/h_d1/N-5yc1v/R-202985194/h_d2/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10053&langId=-1&keyword=Viavolt&storeId=10051 ) so that I could keep a few mother plants in a 2x3 tent. I wasn't planning on changing the bulbs since they are decent for veg I'm told.
> 
> ...




4 bulb t5s, which 4 would you recommend? Any specific order?


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## polyarcturus (May 7, 2012)

well if you go back a page or 2 flowering bulb discusion has taken place, plus there is a list of bulbs. but anyways here are the best bulbs again, UVL Aquasun UVL Redsun ZooMed Florasun 420/460 Actinic Wavepoint Coralwave any 6500k is a pretty good bulb, i prefer the 6700k myself so a good 4 bulb for veg would be x2 6500k and x2 aquasun, then when i switched to flower i would just switch this combo to x2 aquasun and x2 florasun or redsun. a good a 8 bulb setup for flower or veg would be a combo like this aquasun, redsun, florasun, 6500k, redsun 6500k, florasun, aquasun


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## kpmarine (May 7, 2012)

TenEmies said:


> Whats your dry weight? Off T5? I get 1.5 pounds off one thousand watt. Maybe good for small personal grower but probley no huge colas..


Or maybe you could actually read the thread, and you would see how it turns out. Nothing personal, but people asking questions without actually attempting to find info is annoying. Top that with a speculation that you don't really validate, and you have a recipe for getting flamed. Just a thought if you actually intend to post any more in the future. Also, where in this thread have you found anyone other than a "small personal grower"? I mean seriously, did you even try to read the thread? 

That said, I haven't done enough grows to say personally how these really can yield. I can, however, bet that 1000w of flourescents will have alot less power consumption due to the fact that I highly doubt you will need anything other than your intake and exhaust fans. I have been hitting temps in the 80's already outside with no A/C inside; my res never overheats, I have lights damn near on the plants, all I use for cooling is a box fan that vents into an attic access. Aside from powering my lights, a hydro pump, and a box fan, I have no other electric draw in my flower room. This room is second story, south facing side, in a house that was last insulated in 1950. The temp has stayed nicely at 72F. If the root cellar was available for growing, I would need a heater to use it. My res temps already stay in the low 60's most days.


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## MurshDawg (May 7, 2012)

Isisyogi said:


> 4 bulb t5s, which 4 would you recommend? Any specific order?


if it's only 4 bulbs I'd say 1 3000k, 1 Red Life, 1 coral wave and UVL 454, imo


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## PetFlora (May 7, 2012)

Give 'em hell* kp!*

*Isis/MurshD,* ^^^ I would replace the 454 with a FloraSun- which has ample blue + lots of 615-650 red.

If I didn't already have Red Lifes I would sub with FloraSuns. UVL AquaSun would be a stronger 3000


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## polyarcturus (May 7, 2012)

tell em flora i tried...


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## kpmarine (May 7, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Give 'em hell* kp!*
> 
> *Isis/MurshD,* ^^^ I would replace the 454 with a FloraSun- which has ample blue + lots of 615-650 red.
> 
> If I didn't already have Red Lifes I would sub with FloraSuns. UVL AquaSun would be a stronger 3000


I've been venturing forth into the dark corners of this site, and I think I have become bitter and angry as a result. lol


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## polyarcturus (May 7, 2012)

GUYS im PISSSED! i just got janked for 20$ at the hydro store i swear i will never shop at a hydro store unless they have a better price on a product i can get online or im going to get co2. all i got for my 20$ was 20 connecters and 20 drpiemmiters and i need more, i could have got the whole kit an kaboodle at menards for like 10 more 10$ including a digital time and all the peices i need. needless to say if it doesnt come from manufacturer thats set the prices for the retailer im not buying it. just fucking stupid. i wen there to get cheap airstone and they didnt even have that! 2$ a airstone when im just plaing around, go them for 50 cents at a pet store a second later, i should have went to menards but i didnt know they had the shit in stock.

anyways just pissed and thought i would say order online, fuck hydro shops, and DIY everything because the manufactures of the products we buy are pretty shitty themselves.


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## kpmarine (May 7, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> GUYS im PISSSED! i just got janked for 20$ at the hydro store i swear i will never shop at a hydro store unless they have a better price on a product i can get online or im going to get co2. all i got for my 20$ was 20 connecters and 20 drpiemmiters and i need more, i could have got the whole kit an kaboodle at menards for like 10 more 10$ including a digital time and all the peices i need. needless to say if it doesnt come from manufacturer thats set the prices for the retailer im not buying it. just fucking stupid. i wen there to get cheap airstone and they didnt even have that! 2$ a airstone when im just plaing around, go them for 50 cents at a pet store a second later, i should have went to menards but i didnt know they had the shit in stock.
> 
> anyways just pissed and thought i would say order online, fuck hydro shops, and DIY everything because the manufactures of the products we buy are pretty shitty themselves.


Yeah, hydro shops are inherently shady. I've seen 300% markup plus in the past over other retailers. 15 bucks for a gallon of black strap at the hydro shop. Like $3 a gallon at the local feed store. Soil is also cheaper at the feed store. Even the fox farm line is cheaper there than at the hydro shop. lol


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## jsamuel24 (May 7, 2012)

I must be lucky. So many hydro stores in my area that they cant just mark up from hell or another one of the stores will put them out of buisness. Of course I have 7 hydro stores within 3 miles of my house. Sorry to hear that though poly, that allways sucks 

Snoogins


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## Isisyogi (May 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> well if you go back a page or 2 flowering bulb discusion has taken place, plus there is a list of bulbs. but anyways here are the best bulbs again, UVL Aquasun UVL Redsun ZooMed Florasun 420/460 Actinic Wavepoint Coralwave any 6500k is a pretty good bulb, i prefer the 6700k myself so a good 4 bulb for veg would be x2 6500k and x2 aquasun, then when i switched to flower i would just switch this combo to x2 aquasun and x2 florasun or redsun. a good a 8 bulb setup for flower or veg would be a combo like this aquasun, redsun, florasun, 6500k, redsun 6500k, florasun, aquasun



Like I said, I did read the thread. But I didnt see anything that gave specifics to a 4 bulb setup with an order. Excuse me for asking for clarification. I appreciate you input, not your condescending tone. Thanks.


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## Isisyogi (May 8, 2012)

MurshDawg said:


> if it's only 4 bulbs I'd say 1 3000k, 1 Red Life, 1 coral wave and UVL 454, imo


Thank you MurshDawg, your brevity and concise reply is much appreciated and exactly what I was looking for. Thank you.


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## Isisyogi (May 8, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Give 'em hell* kp!*
> 
> *Isis/MurshD,* ^^^ I would replace the 454 with a FloraSun- which has ample blue + lots of 615-650 red.
> 
> If I didn't already have Red Lifes I would sub with FloraSuns. UVL AquaSun would be a stronger 3000


Thank you PetFlora, your helpful reply is greatly appreciated. Cheers!


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## polyarcturus (May 8, 2012)

Isisyogi said:


> Like I said, I did read the thread. But I didnt see anything that gave specifics to a 4 bulb setup with an order. Excuse me for asking for clarification. I appreciate you input, not your condescending tone. Thanks.


wasnt really trying to be condescending... i was just stating that we had just went over the basics. im a newb at this too so dont worry i did the same thing when i came in,started asking newb questions, so feel free to ask IMO (others dont like to go back over the basics) i think its always good to understand others variables. others think it is disrespectful when the info is just a click away.... really if you want to know your stuff your gonna have to make your own call tho this what they kinda pointed out to me. everybody gave me different advice but it really depends on the spectrum you are trying to achieve. so when it came down to it after much advice i made my own calls on bulbs from my own research. there really is no basic PAR t5 light bulb setup, just a bunch of bulbs that preform better than others.


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## LightLady (May 8, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> lol gourmet rosemary hash?
> 
> I used to use dish soap along the outer foundation of my moms house out in the country to get rid of tiny pests and ants except in a much higher concentration. Worked very well. The rosemary disorients them and the soap burns them, an effective double whammy.


here are some photos of MYLADY [1 plant] that only saw T5HO light & got fed LUCAS 1micro/2bloom, kept @ 980 in a waterfarm with only an airstone added.


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## jsamuel24 (May 8, 2012)

LightLady said:


> here are some photos of MYLADY [1 plant] that only saw T5HO light & got fed LUCAS 1micro/2bloom, kept @ 980 in a waterfarm with only an airstone added.
> View attachment 2158623View attachment 2158624View attachment 2158627
> View attachment 2158629View attachment 2158632View attachment 2158635View attachment 2158639


Looking awsome +1 to you keep up the good t5 goodness!


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## ddmreinno1 (May 10, 2012)

I have not read every page, I have found in my research that the portions of bluelight produed around 420nm have a direct relationship to how much thc you plant produces. Therefore the more blue light the more thc that is why the bulbs work good throughout the entire life cycle. I don't know if it was mentioned uva bulb from the black light range/area promote reds blues and purples to become more prominent.


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## PetFlora (May 10, 2012)

*LightLady:* Awesome result so far. I think everyone would like to know which bulbs you use for veg and flower


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## LightLady (May 10, 2012)

petflora said:


> *lightlady:* awesome result so far. I think everyone would like to know which bulbs you use for veg and flower


used 2 fixtures @ 45degree angles for both, but in veg started out with the 4 outer bulbs of each fixture illuminated & then added in the 4 centre ones after a couple of weeks.
Flower was with all lamps illuminated most of the time [i would occasionally switch off the centre4 lamps to emulate a cloudy day when giving her some foliar spray -rain ]

t5ho 8-lamp:veg> 6500k/420-460actnic/tropical wave/4100k/5000k/tropical wave/420-460actnic/6500k
t5ho 8-lamp:flower> 3000k/coral wave/redsun/tropical wave/roseate/redsun/coral wave/3000k

I HAD BEEN TOLD THAT ONE SHOULD NEVER PUT PAR T5 LAMPS IN THE OUTERMOST LOCATIONS WITHIN THE FIXTURE WHICH IS WHY BOTH CONFIGURATIONS ARE BRACKETED IN EITHER 6500K OR 3000K LAMPS

NO SPECIAL NUTES - LUCAS FORMULA FEED KEEPING PPMS AROUND 980

NO ADVANCED VENTILATION


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## polyarcturus (May 10, 2012)

i have to agree its poinless to put specialty bulbs on the edge becuase the plants are centered under the light that means the best way to ensure all the light is used is by plaincing the best bulbs in the center. really you should put your most powerful or out of spectrum bulbs at the edge where the most light is lost.

i put my 1000k on the edges or 6500ks as they put out the most lumens IMO


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## LightLady (May 10, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i have to agree its poinless to put specialty bulbs on the edge becuase the plants are centered under the light that means the best way to ensure all the light is used is by plaincing the best bulbs in the center. really you should put your most powerful or out of spectrum bulbs at the edge where the most light is lost.
> 
> i put my 1000k on the edges or 6500ks as they put out the most lumens IMO


WELL MYLADY DOES NOT HAVE THE FIXTURE DIRECTLY ABOVE BUT COMING IN AT AN ANGLE FROM 2 LENGTHWISE SIDES.....BUT THE LAMP LAYOUT IS AS I STATED & SHE LIKES IT. FOR SHITS & GIGGLES.....NEXT TIME I WILL SETUP 2 DIFFERENT CONFIGURATIONS & SEE WHICH SIDE SHE LEANS TOWARDS.


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Yeah, hydro shops are inherently shady. I've seen 300% markup plus in the past over other retailers. 15 bucks for a gallon of black strap at the hydro shop. Like $3 a gallon at the local feed store. Soil is also cheaper at the feed store. Even the fox farm line is cheaper there than at the hydro shop. lol


Hydro stores are good at selling only one thing, hot air.


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Just can't stay away eh Lucius? I thought you left this thread because it's so off-topic? Yet you come 'round complaining how off-topic our thread still is... guess we have a fan in you after all.


LOL, exactly


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> I really can't gauge it. There's a grow log going and you can see the difference in development since I put them in, but I do not notice any notable change in regards to buds that are directly under the 660's versus the ones that aren't or anything. I really don't think a comparison of bulbs is even possible without dual grows setup and side by side comparisons.


Because you are using floro's. Plants don't grow very fast under weak light sources. Try your bulbs in a VHO fixture and you will see a difference. Be prepared to buy new lights in half the time.


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> I have a reply from Jeff.
> 
> X,
> As I never want to question a companies integrity and want to believe that they are being truthful with the information they are providing...I also know that most T5 companies utilize a third party manufacture. UV Lighting uses a inter source company to produce our lamps but, the difference is that we own the blends, name and rights to everything that we sell under our name. That being said...I'm not sure who is producing the Figi Purple lamps and it seems a little strange that they are unwilling to release a spectral graph to their product. I can have the lamp spec graphed, but we do not make it a policy to purchase a competitor's product and run test on them. If you or your community can provide me with one I will send it in for testing. Attached is other spectral graphs to lamps we produce. Pay attention to the 75.25 lamp graph. When comparing apples to apples the Figi Purple looks very close to our 75.25 in color, or so I've been told. Our 75.25 is made up of 75% 420nm and 25% triband RGB mix.
> ...


LMFAO @ Fiji Purple graph, it's a 460nm ATI Blue Plus with a 5% 610nm spike of orange. It's a great expensive bulb, but why not stick with ATI or UVL


----------



## polyarcturus (May 11, 2012)

who? what? why? when? where? how? first off blue b who the hell are you? why are you here? whats you beef?

this thread is pretty informative, but long and length isnt really necessary and needs to be reduced but that not the point this is more a chill room for us PAR T5 growers outside the club that go off the topic.

i dont know what happened to profeesuer but this is his thread dont be disrespectful. adn also stop cluttering this thread with non growing related shit if you want to talk shit start a thread and do it there.


----------



## kpmarine (May 11, 2012)

Could we try to keep the fighting to a minimum?


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

organicbynature said:


> Hey all!
> 
> I thought I'd pop back in and show some shots from my first all-T5 grow. I'm glad to see everyone getting such good use out of the Flora Suns. This thread has come a long way from freaking out over a little green spike.
> 
> ...


FloraSuns are the only way to grow, not sure why anyone would waste the time or money with anything else.


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> I cant wait for the ultra grow lamps to come out. I wouldnt mind paying $20 for those but I hope theyll be cheaper
> 
> Ive got trich heads forming all over the place on my sativas, looking real good xD
> 
> UCC, you have a LOT of T5s rolling in your room bro! Nice! Im a get a bunch of those T8 fixtures from walmart and use em for side lighting. Better light spread than the Radiions youre using I think, just a bigger mess of electrical cords since they cant be daisy chained


The UltraGrowths are NOT coming out in the USA. Spoke personally with the US rep out in California and they are only being released overseas for certain types of bird cages. 660nm is bad for aquariums so there is no use for it there. They won't be releasing them here.


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

Undercover Cop said:


> havent used the discontinued ATI ProColor


They are much nicer than the FloraSuns, and almost identical to Sylvania's Gro-Lux. Order the Gro-Lux from the UK, the shipping isn't that bad if you buy in quantity. All in all the difference is slim and the amount of power coming out of a T5 is minimal considering that most of the juice is going to the blue spectrum, oh well


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Hey, what do you folks think of this? It's the Aqua Medic Planta bulb. Have only found them on amazon so far. Looks promising in my opinion. Seems like it has that 660 spike we have been seeking.
> View attachment 2124610


LOL, again, seriously?


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> That one hits the 660-670 spot, but theres just not enough power in the 600 range to influence a spending decision. Check over the fiji purple SPD again. Theres also less of a green spike for the fijis.
> 
> Heres the fiji SPD


Lol, oh there it is, thought it was lost somewhere


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## kpmarine (May 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> LOL, again, seriously?


"Seriously?" What?


----------



## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

infinitalus said:


> Heres a look at pics I took inside the tent very early friday morning. Ill put pics up in a couple hours of how big they have grown in just a few days.
> 
> 
> View attachment 2123861
> ...


Could you post a photo of the 660nm next to a 6500k? It's hard to even see what's going on in your fixture with all the other bulbs in there


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> View attachment 2123466 anybody try these sylvania gro lux? they dont seem to sell them in america from what i can see
> 
> http://www.aquaristikshop.com/cgi-bin/neu/webshop.pl?Nr568060+*+568061+*+568062=1&t=e_temcart


Yeah, they are nice, a lot like the florasuns but much better quality and a tinge more blue


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> LOL, again, seriously?


*




Originally Posted by kpmarine  
Hey, what do you folks think of this? It's the Aqua Medic Planta bulb. Have only found them on amazon so far. Looks promising in my opinion. Seems like it has that 660 spike we have been seeking.
Attachment 2124610






*


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

^^^^^^^^^^^^
This thread keeps going in circles, new people join, then post up the same graphs and talk about the same bulbs over and over again, nothing has changed since about page 200

Then someone comes in and says, "what's your problem can't you read the WHOLE thread?" Then they get pissed off and argue for a day and then leave. Then a new person comes in posts the same graphs and the same shit starts over again so there really is no point in reading past page 200 FYI

Anyway, where are the new bulbs that were promised like a year ago from the guy who started this thread that mysteriously vanishes for a half a year then comes back and says they got a new line of bulbs then leaves mysteriously? Another FYI, the only reason someone would NOT post a graph of their bulb is because you can get it elsewhere for half the price.


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## polyarcturus (May 11, 2012)

are you high on meth right now? i will talk to the mods about this disrespectful shit see if we cant get his posts deleted


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

here we go again, another new guy ranting and raving about the same bulbs and graphs that were posted 150 pages ago, then another new guy jumps in and gets pissed and starts threatening people, calling names, etc, same shit, different day LMFAO


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

Bulbs to have in your lineup:

FloraSun, RedSun, ATI blue plus or UVL 454, Giesemann Actinic Plus, UltraSun (for those that still like lumens). The nice thing about the Giesemann Actinic Plus is that it has the 420 but also has 440, 460 as well. Why not free up a couple slots and get rid of the actinic 420 bulbs? forget about the Fiji Purple for fuuuuuuckkkk sake, it's a fucking marketing gimmick


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## kpmarine (May 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> hey btw, did that fucking retard ever finish his new bullshit bulb line yet, what the fuck was his name again proFessor nutjob? proFessor assquack?????????


Dude, you return to a thread, and insult the OP in your second post. You weren't here to catch up, clearly. Why all the statements that you know are just going to cause hostility? Your comments were so inflammatory, that Lucius (Who doesn't really come by, and isn't even a fan of this thread, anymore.) felt the need to come by and tell you that it was bad for the thread. Albeit, not in a very friendly way. Honestly though, what kind of response did you expect in the situation? If you were just trying to catch up on the thread, why say something like this? How could your actions possibly be conductive to that end?

Edit: It is also generally considered good forum etiquette to make one big catch up post, instead of 18 smaller ones. Not required, but makes it easier to read.


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## PetFlora (May 11, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Don't bother wasting your time reading this thread, it's just the same ol' bullshit repeated over and over again without end. Just get some FloraSuns or any bulb containing the 660nm and you are good to go. Gro-lux, FloraSun, Aquamedic plantgrow.....they are all the same shit in different package with different price. Throw some 460, 630, 420nm in there and even better YAY


I for one would not have come to your realization until I came out the other end of trial and error. At least I did not buy into the Fijis- lol , and found zero benefit from Actinic bulbs over standard Quantum Grow bulbs, but that could be strain related. 

*LV* has excellent results using basic GROW/FLOWER bulbs (as does BendMC on another thread, whose thread influenced me to get a T5). BUT as you point out, bulbs on the extreme ends of PAR will improve the result over basic bulbs, but they have not been promoted for horticulture until recently. 

Plus, *UVL now offers a 660*, which should further improve tric production. I have one and can't wait to hit mid flower to drop it into my mix of *FloraSuns, RedLifes, UVL AquaSuns **and Coral Waves.*

It does seem odd that *Pr0f* has been absent from his own thread this long, especially after developing a deep red prototype that he wants us to buy. 

He did mention being sidetracked by induction fixtures, but they too need 630-660 

*BlueB* If you don't like this threads' vibe, why not move on?


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I for one would not have come to your realization until I came out the other end of trial and error. At least I did not buy into the Fijis- lol , and found zero benefit from Actinic bulbs over standard Quantum Grow bulbs, but that could be strain related.
> 
> *LV* has excellent results using basic GROW/FLOWER bulbs (as does BendMC on another thread, whose thread influenced me to get a T5). BUT as you point out, bulbs on the extreme ends of PAR will improve the result over basic bulbs, but they have not been promoted for horticulture until recently.
> 
> ...


Flora, I moved on months ago after being harassed by the jerks long enough. The only reason I came back was to check on the status of the 660nm bulb idea I suggested a long time ago and to see where you and UVL were at. I also wanted to make sure that the people I am friends with in this thread aren't being harassed and misinformed. It seems as though they are and are about to move on as well. This thread is only good for one thing these days, and that is photos of people's hard work

Don't worry, I won't be posting helpful information here anymore, only to have it get lost amongst the b.s. and all


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Dude, you return to a thread, and insult the OP in your second post. You weren't here to catch up, clearly. Why all the statements that you know are just going to cause hostility? Your comments were so inflammatory, that Lucius (Who doesn't really come by, and isn't even a fan of this thread, anymore.) felt the need to come by and tell you that it was bad for the thread. Albeit, not in a very friendly way. Honestly though, what kind of response did you expect in the situation? If you were just trying to catch up on the thread, why say something like this? How could your actions possibly be conductive to that end?
> 
> Edit: It is also generally considered good forum etiquette to make one big catch up post, instead of 18 smaller ones. Not required, but makes it easier to read.


Dude, don't worry, I won't be posting here anymore LOL had to let out some steam after seeing all the disrespect people were giving to my hommies over the last couple months, probably crossed the line a bit but oh well


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

This thread really needs to be wrapped up though as I've stated 100 times before. It keeps going in circles and if you people really want it to be informative for others (which I'm really starting to doubt) then take out the other 300 pages of repetitive crap

It really isn't that complex of an idea, there are about 10 useful aquarium bulbs that work for horticulture


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## hyroot (May 11, 2012)

knee grow please. Just smoke some chreese.


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

hyroot said:


> knee grow please. Just smoke some chreese.


Hahahahaha, true dat, sall good yo, nice new grows btw, keep it up guy


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## BlueB (May 11, 2012)

been rockin rockin my siggy siggy for months and to say the least least it is like steroids here


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## Dr.J20 (May 13, 2012)

so Blueb, are those 65w cfl's in the 2700K range?--reference to your "siggy siggy" of course,

also, if you feel like the thread is going about in circles, why not add some fresh info yourself? I mean it just seems a little odd to take the time to make multiple posts lamenting something you see as a problem, instead of simply saying, "hey guys, i know there's a lot of talk about which bulb and how to arrange them, but i just want to throw out ......." <---insert your own expertise here

just my two cents

be easy


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## Lucius Vorenus (May 14, 2012)

*

You can follow my grow in my sig.

Chopped this a few days ago. Stopped taking pics etc. It all turned out well though. We sent these very tiny plants right into flower to try out the effectiveness of T5's on a large 18 plant grow. The problem is coverage. The T5's just don't have it. 3 8 bulb BadBoys barely covers 16 small plants (2 were under LED) so we would need to run 12 plants under 4 badboys if the plants were of appropriate size.

We might do it again or we might stick to HPS. All in all, the buds on our Bubba were smaller than with HPs and the buds from our God Bud were about the same size. I think the different strains like the HPS light better. Pre 98 Bubba being one of them.

Each plant yields what I would assume will be just over 1.5z. 1296 watts total= 672 grams .51gpw but those numbers aren't official until we weigh but im eyeballing it.

pic of 1 of the 1 gallon tupperware containers i cure in. total yield filled 3.5 of them.
​
​

*


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## BlueB (May 17, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> so Blueb, are those 65w cfl's in the 2700K range?--reference to your "siggy siggy" of course,
> 
> also, if you feel like the thread is going about in circles, why not add some fresh info yourself? I mean it just seems a little odd to take the time to make multiple posts lamenting something you see as a problem, instead of simply saying, "hey guys, i know there's a lot of talk about which bulb and how to arrange them, but i just want to throw out ......." <---insert your own expertise here
> 
> ...


naaaa, the 2700k bulbs are low in blue light and are high in yellow light and 630nm if they are any good. there is plenty of 630nm light in the Flora Sun bulbs, ya really gotta see differently when doing the T5 grow. It ain't about Kelvin temp it's about wavelength. Those CFL's lights I got are high in the 470nm range and are for plant growth specifically. They are from Catalina Aquarium and that store has lots and lots of T5's that are purple colored for plant growth for around $10. It's a really nice store, and the owner is really cool.


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## BlueB (May 17, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> *crossing fingers*


They will ALL BE THE SAME accept for some minor minor differences. Really


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## polyarcturus (May 18, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Dude, don't worry, I won't be posting here anymore LOL had to let out some steam after seeing all the disrespect people were giving to my hommies over the last couple months, probably crossed the line a bit but oh well


what happened to this couldnt stay away, eh?


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## Dr.J20 (May 18, 2012)

AltarNation said:


> Just gonna throw this out there, T5's do produce a decent amount of heat but they don't really compare to HID heat. Air-cooled hoods are a nice addition but you lose a significant amount of light and UV to the glass barrier. I honestly think in an attic you are going to be requiring a separate air cooled exhaust line (which most likely means a second in-line fan if you want it to happen efficiently)
> 
> Just my 2 cents. Are you in a southern state? Even in a northern state I find that attics get unbearably hot. Is your attic insulated?


Talk about late response...sorry AN,
yeah attic is insulated and honestly not that hot, but i'm definitely doing a par t5 setup and i doubt i'm gonna need to go full on perpetual, just have a mom in a tent and drop clones whenever i feel the need...
also gonna go scrog or lst with 2 girls, just need to decide about 1 vs 2 panels (4x8 or two 4x4s) and nail down a final bulb lineup

thanks for the thoughts!
be easy


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## kpmarine (May 18, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> Talk about late response...sorry AN,
> yeah attic is insulated and honestly not that hot, but i'm definitely doing a par t5 setup and i doubt i'm gonna need to go full on perpetual, just have a mom in a tent and drop clones whenever i feel the need...
> also gonna go scrog or lst with 2 girls, just need to decide about 1 vs 2 panels (4x8 or two 4x4s) and nail down a final bulb lineup
> 
> ...


I'd go with 2x 4 bulb panels. I gives you alot more options. I like my 8 bulb, but it's kinda tedious to deal with at times.


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## mipainpatient (May 20, 2012)

Salutations all, bout to switch bulbs out for the first time (not because of a noted decrease in yield or anything, too much cultivar rotation to be able to tell) thought it would be a good time to check on the ol' thread. How is everyone's setup working out?

Thinking of doing a SOG with like 2-4 weeks of extra veg before flip under a setup like this:

fs/cw/fs/rw (x3) and adding reptisuns UV cfl and 6500K/2700K twin-splitter hanging side-lighting when the canopy could benefit from it
(florasun = fs, coral wave = cw, reef wave = rw)---estimating like 2nd-4th week of 12/12, this also seems to be the best time to introduce the UV supplementation although have left it on for perpetual runs to more that satisfactory results--UVs are on for 6.5 hrs usually timed with the other CFLs (Think midday).

thoughts? this is a 2x4 darkroom tent, for the SOG thinking 6 kandy kushes but might do 3,3 if this purple afghani pans out (purple kush x afghani 1 from sensi)
The KKs loved the CW/6500k/CW/6500K and trying to improve on those results, figured the florasuns for an improvement.
Peace
MPP


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## PetFlora (May 20, 2012)

I added a UVL 660 yesterday. It is not as intense as I was expecting, but much redder than a FloraSun

Will post new pics by Friday


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## kpmarine (May 20, 2012)

What ever happened with geting that Fiji SPD? Haven't seen mention of it in a while. Did it end up not happening?


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## polyarcturus (May 20, 2012)

i figured that would be a downside to red fluoros.... oh well keep us updated! do you happen to know the luminosity?


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## okthanks2 (May 22, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> what ever happened with geting that fiji spd? Haven't seen mention of it in a while. Did it end up not happening?


the graph was posted on rollitup before the server crashed, i happened to save it as an image file!


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## kpmarine (May 22, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> the graph was posted on rollitup before the server crashed, i happened to save it as an image file!


That was determined to be a fake some time back. There was a deal worked out where one was geing mailed to uvl and they were going to hook us up with a chart. Haven't heard anything of it in a while though.


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## okthanks2 (May 22, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> That was determined to be a fake some time back. There was a deal worked out where one was geing mailed to uvl and they were going to hook us up with a chart. Haven't heard anything of it in a while though.


Huh? What are you even talking about? What graph? Do you have access to my image files or something because I don't remember posting it yet. LOL???????


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## okthanks2 (May 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> That was determined to be a fake some time back. There was a deal worked out where one was geing mailed to uvl and they were going to hook us up with a chart. Haven't heard anything of it in a while though.


Found it, I highly doubt you've even seen this graph before, it was posted long before you joined the forum. Then I guess the server crashed and quite a bit of info was lost including this graph that was posted. I don't even remember who posted it originally, but I remember them saying they had their old physics professor do the spectral reading for them? Something like that anyway.


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## kpmarine (May 23, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> Found it, I highly doubt you've even seen this graph before, it was posted long before you joined the forum. Then I guess the server crashed and quite a bit of info was lost including this graph that was posted. I don't even remember who posted it originally, but I remember them saying they had their old physics professor do the spectral reading for them? Something like that anyway. View attachment 2180807


Ah, haven't seen that one before. Cool


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## okthanks2 (May 23, 2012)

^^^^^^^your welcome^^^^^^^

knew it would come in handy some day, I don't tend to throw away much anymore. As you can see the Fiji Purple is a really great bulb. I have been using it in my T5 setup for months and haven't switched it out for obvious reasons. I keep 4 of them in my fixture during veg and flower and have had nothing but positive results. I use 4 Fiji Purple bulbs, 2 UVL Red Sun, and 2 UVL Super Actinic for flower and I think I get better results than under any HID! Puts out a real nice magenta color between them all.


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## Lucius Vorenus (May 23, 2012)

As usual, lots of pics of graphs and lots of chatting but no pics of BuDS!


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## BlueB (May 23, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> As usual, lots of pics of graphs and lots of chatting but no pics of BuDS!


As usual, same ol' bitching and moaning LOL


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## kpmarine (May 23, 2012)

BlueB said:


> you are right man, that guy is a narc/rat. I got a message from the mod to watch out for him/her/it, i guess they have been harassing other forum members as well. They posted a false ip address to the mod, i'm surprised they aren't banned yet.


Pics, or it didn't happen. That's one hell of a claim to make without substantiating it. I wouldn't give my IP to a mod either if he asked. For the same reson you wouldn't give that mod your home address I would bet.


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## kpmarine (May 23, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> watch out for this dude people, it's a rat. Dude's been ratting people out on rollitup for awhile now. Actually pretty sure it's a narc. Will be getting the forum mod to do a background check.


Seriously, with all these claims of people ratting people out. Got proof?


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## hyroot (May 23, 2012)

That spd is for a sylvania hps in europe. According to Sylvania the fiji is different from the ati purple plus.. all they would say about fiji spectrum is that its 6% red spike at 650 nm. Yet I came across something from thomas a while ago saying the large red is at 630.... So who knows


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## PetFlora (May 24, 2012)

'IF" that graph is actually a commercially available Fiji, I would not use it to veg, unless I saw conclusive proof that all that 650+ red didn't force flower prematurely. For veg I am using Quantum Grow (6500s) + Aqua Suns + Coral Wave

For flower, it looks like it provides more than enough blue; although one UVL SA wouldn't hurt.

I use 2 Aqua Sun in veg only 1 in flower


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## Psytranceorgy (May 24, 2012)

BlueB said:


> Did the spectral analysis for the Fiji Purple today.
> Here it is finally!
> Enjoy,


^^^ This is the Fiji Purple analysis that was done. Originally posted 1/18/2012 in this thread (original is still there... not lost in the website hack/data loss)


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## kpmarine (May 24, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> ^^^ This is the Fiji Purple analysis that was done. Originally posted 1/18/2012 in this thread (original is still there... not lost in the website hack/data loss)


BlueB said himself that it was not real. Someone took his money and made it up. So I wouldn't trust that one.


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## Psytranceorgy (May 24, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> BlueB said himself that it was not real. Someone took his money and made it up. So I wouldn't trust that one.


oh i missed that... my bad then...lol. but yeah, not like I trust anything to do with Fiji Purple anyways... 439 pages later and we still don't have a Fiji Purple spd graph... /roll eyes (who cares?)


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## kpmarine (May 24, 2012)

Psytranceorgy said:


> oh i missed that... my bad then...lol. but yeah, not like I trust anything to do with Fiji Purple anyways... 439 pages later and we still don't have a Fiji Purple spd graph... /roll eyes (who cares?)


Yeah, I bought them when that was the real one as far as we knew. Can't afford unknon bulbs at those prices.


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## dirtbikerida63 (May 24, 2012)

Does growing with t5's require constant canopy management? I'm about to start my first grow but dont want to have to worry about keeping the canopy somewhat even


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## kpmarine (May 24, 2012)

dirtbikerida63 said:


> Does growing with t5's require constant canopy management? I'm about to start my first grow but dont want to have to worry about keeping the canopy somewhat even


Not with a SOG grow.


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## PSUAGRO. (May 24, 2012)

You guys pay for my airfare to Europe and ill get you that graph for the FIJI bulb......I won't hit the old man/swear


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## kpmarine (May 24, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> You guys pay for my airfare to Europe and ill get you that graph for the FIJI bulb......I won't hit the old man/swear


I'll kick in $20, but only if you hit him with the chart on the wall and tape it. While yelling "This is for the PAR growers, you snooty douche!"


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## UnderCurrentDWC (May 24, 2012)

A few picks of my grape ape clones from day one to day 25 under a bb 16 bulb with the bulbs in my sig.


4/27/12









5/09/12








5/22/12

















And the new batch of clones in the e-z-cloner


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## hyroot (May 25, 2012)

dirtbikerida63 said:


> Does growing with t5's require constant canopy management? I'm about to start my first grow but dont want to have to worry about keeping the canopy somewhat even


yes it does. with sog or not. you want an even canopy. you want each top to get the same intensity. i have some sog going where i had to super crop a few of them to make them even.


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## tehshyt (May 27, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> 9 bulbs total...3 to switch out
> in this order too....
> 
> UVL 454 w/internal reflector
> ...



I have all of these bulbs as originally suggested by Pr0fessor - complete with a 6 bulb t5 badboy ballast.
(I got lucky and have fully functioning Red Suns).
The lights were used for one grow - It went great!

Now my life is taking a different direction and I'm looking to get rid of these. If anyone is interested PM me- I'll hook it up.


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## jsamuel24 (May 28, 2012)

Thought I would throw up a few pics of my grow.






















Snoochie Boochies!


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## Lucius Vorenus (May 28, 2012)

looks good


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## PetFlora (May 28, 2012)

I'd smoke it


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## jsamuel24 (May 28, 2012)

Thanks, about 20 days from harvest right now. Had a PH problem earlier in flower so the damage is evident, but it hasnt spread so i think things are gonna be good for the next 3 weeks.


Snooch


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## Lucius Vorenus (May 28, 2012)

What are you guys doing for veg? How far off the top of the canopy are you keeping your lights?


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## UnderCurrentDWC (May 30, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What are you guys doing for veg? How far off the top of the canopy are you keeping your lights?


clones 12"-18" off

rooted plants 6"-9" off


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## PetFlora (May 30, 2012)

Seedlings/clones I only use 2 bulbs at ~ 6"

Full on grow ~ 6 bulbs < 4" . Flower 8 bulbs < 4"


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## Lucius Vorenus (May 30, 2012)

I am finding im getting much better growth with 18" for vegging plants lately. I run 8 bulb fixtures.

As for my seedlings this is where im still experimenting. I basically keep my seedlings off to the side and a good 3ft from the 8 bulb and they seem to be doing ok. I keep them in rockwool and in closed dome for first 14 days.


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## Fonzarelli (May 31, 2012)

Hey all! I've been studying this thread in and out about T5 HO lighting for the past 5 months and I have to say I'm quite impressed. A couple months ago I decided to take the plunge and purchase a couple fixtures and bulbs. I purchased some red suns, fiji purples, super actinics, 454 blue, and some flora suns. I've swapped 'em around to find the right light color and I think I've found it. What I'm runnin right now in a 4-bulb fixture is 1 red sun, 1 fiji purple, 1 super actinic and 1 flora sun. The plants love it. They stay short, stocky, perky and healthy all the way through. I ditched the 454 blue because the Fiji Purple is rich in the 454nm wavelength already. I'm totally in love with the Fiji purple. I think it's the best T5 for this purpose. My configuration goes actinic plus/red sun/fiji purple/flora sun in that order and it rocks. I really don't think it gets much better than that. I'm doing shelf systems with 4-bulb 4 foot hydrofarm designer fixtures one on top of the other. A fan is necessary to cool the fixtures otherwise the plants above get a little warm and it ain't good. When UVL gets their new deep red bulb made I'm going to take out the Flora Sun and swap it for the deep red UVL lamp since there are unnecessary wavelengths in the Flora Sun lamps. Feel free to ask any questions and happy growing y'all.


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## pushu (Jun 1, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Hey all! I've been studying this thread in and out about T5 HO lighting for the past 5 months and I have to say I'm quite impressed. A couple months ago I decided to take the plunge and purchase a couple fixtures and bulbs. I purchased some red suns, fiji purples, super actinics, 454 blue, and some flora suns. I've swapped 'em around to find the right light color and I think I've found it. What I'm runnin right now in a 4-bulb fixture is 1 red sun, 1 fiji purple, 1 super actinic and 1 flora sun. The plants love it. They stay short, stocky, perky and healthy all the way through. I ditched the 454 blue because the Fiji Purple is rich in the 454nm wavelength already. I'm totally in love with the Fiji purple. I think it's the best T5 for this purpose. My configuration goes actinic plus/red sun/fiji purple/flora sun in that order and it rocks. I really don't think it gets much better than that. I'm doing shelf systems with 4-bulb 4 foot hydrofarm designer fixtures one on top of the other. A fan is necessary to cool the fixtures otherwise the plants above get a little warm and it ain't good. When UVL gets their new deep red bulb made I'm going to take out the Flora Sun and swap it for the deep red UVL lamp since there are unnecessary wavelengths in the Flora Sun lamps. Feel free to ask any questions and happy growing y'all.


the cheapest I can find the fiji purple is 29.95 for a 4' T5 is that bulb really worth the money?

I have a combination of coral wave and flora suns and plants seem to be doing well, but it's my first T5 grow so I have nothing to compare it to
stayed away from the red suns after reading all the issues that many posting here have had


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## kpmarine (Jun 1, 2012)

pushu said:


> the cheapest I can find the fiji purple is 29.95 for a 4' T5 is that bulb really worth the money?
> 
> I have a combination of coral wave and flora suns and plants seem to be doing well, but it's my first T5 grow so I have nothing to compare it to
> stayed away from the red suns after reading all the issues that many posting here have had


That fiasco with the red suns was a bad run of bulbs. I haven't had any issues other than one bulb that was still under the retailer's return policy. The Fiji Purples are a bit of a dilemma. We have no clue what the actual spd for them is.


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## hyroot (Jun 7, 2012)

so just finished my first sog under one 8 bulb. Got exactly 6 oz. Not to happy. Yield cut in half. They are dank and very resinous. Just a little upset with the yield. Going back to big plants.


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## PetFlora (Jun 7, 2012)

^^ I agree Although my 2 Indica dom ladies (pic # 1) will be spectacular, their combined buds will not equal 4 branches from their Sat dom sister

These were taken last Friday. All have fattened up a good bit since then, especially the Sat dom which has been fed V & B for 2 weeks. The Veg +BLOOM nutes are awesome compared to DM- seeing ~ 5xs the tric production. 

I ordered a pound and will totally switch to it instead of DM In fairness to the DM, I have been using DM Grow ONE but during flower bumping it with Potash+, and I probably don't have the ratios at all dialed in. Still V & B is easy-peasy 

I bet I could have FIMed, LSTd or snapped each of the resulting 4 main branches and let them fill up the entire space below my 8 bulb


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## PSUAGRO. (Jun 7, 2012)

pushu said:


> the cheapest I can find the fiji purple is 29.95 for a 4' T5 is that bulb really worth the money?


Question of the century..................


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## hyroot (Jun 7, 2012)

Pet. I did a bunch of 1 gals. No topping or bending or anything. Got bigger budss. Just not enough of them. Next ones I put in 2 gal grow bags. Took a screw driver and punched a lot of holes to make air-bags, after putting in the soil. So hope that works. Topped all of em. The new ones are 10 days into veg, around a foot tall and bushy under 6 bulb. Going to let em go 5 or 6 weeks then flower. Next ones after that I will lst.

I switched to roots organic uprising line. Mix that and epsom salt in the soil. Uprising already has enough cal. Top dress once month with for next feeds. Top dress ewc every 2 weeks. Feed a compost tea every 7 to 10 days. Then just water the other times. That method kicks ass. Grows almost as fast as hydro and all organic.

Using roots organic original soil.


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## WyoGrow (Jun 7, 2012)

Holy shit Batman.... this is a long god damned thread!!!! My brain is fried from 2 days worth of 5hrs a pop reading this monster.

I am going to be running a 32" 6 bulb fixture in the upper flowering compartment of my grow cabinet and a 24" 4 bulb fixture in the lower veg compartment. I am not going to be the 432nd butthole to ask what bulb configuration you'd suggest for each. But I am going to ask for your input on the bulb configuration I am homing in on. For ease of understanding I am just going to list all UVL bulbs.

6 bulb unit:
2 x Red Sun (633nm), 2 x 12000k, 1 x UltraBlue (454nm) & 1 x Super Actincic (420nm)

4 bulb unit:
2 x 12000k, 1 x UltraBlue & 1 x Super Actincic.

Thanks for your time. And I apologize because I know you've gone over this a lot and I've tried to absorb the pertinent info from this thread. But it's so god damned long now that gleaning out a single post out of 441 pages is a daunting task.


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## hyroot (Jun 7, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> Holy shit Batman.... this is a long god damned thread!!!! My brain is fried from 2 days worth of 5hrs a pop reading this monster.
> 
> I am going to be running a 32" 6 bulb fixture in the upper flowering compartment of my grow cabinet and a 24" 4 bulb fixture in the lower veg compartment. I am not going to be the 432nd butthole to ask what bulb configuration you'd suggest for each. But I am going to ask for your input on the bulb configuration I am homing in on. For ease of understanding I am just going to list all UVL bulbs.
> 
> ...




The veg bulbs are good. But for flower too much blue. Id go with 2 redsuns, 3 zoo med flora suns
And 1 wave point coral waves. The redsuns will give the 630nm red. The flora suns 660nm red (bigger buds) and uv-a and uv-b. The coral wave has actinics 420 nm blue and uv-a and alot of infrared. The IR drives flowering and makes the buds dense.


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## polyarcturus (Jun 7, 2012)

WyoGrow said:


> Holy shit Batman.... this is a long god damned thread!!!! My brain is fried from 2 days worth of 5hrs a pop reading this monster.
> 
> I am going to be running a 32" 6 bulb fixture in the upper flowering compartment of my grow cabinet and a 24" 4 bulb fixture in the lower veg compartment. I am not going to be the 432nd butthole to ask what bulb configuration you'd suggest for each. But I am going to ask for your input on the bulb configuration I am homing in on. For ease of understanding I am just going to list all UVL bulbs.
> 
> ...


yeah i would switch all your super Actinics and ultrablues (both veg and flower) with flora suns .


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## WyoGrow (Jun 8, 2012)

Thanks for the input. I have those bulbs on hand already. Sweet, don't have to order any.


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## pushu (Jun 8, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> Question of the century..................


I decided to forget the fuji purple and ordered the last three 54w red suns that hellolights had in stock
added one coral wave-wave point and got free shipping


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jun 9, 2012)

anyone have any photographs?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jun 9, 2012)

hyroot said:


> so just finished my first sog under one 8 bulb. Got exactly 6 oz. Not to happy. Yield cut in half. They are dank and very resinous. Just a little upset with the yield. Going back to big plants.


How many plants were under it?

You got about .38gpw which is about average for growing under T5's IMO. If you add Co2 you should be able to kick it just over .5


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## hyroot (Jun 9, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> How many plants were under it?
> 
> You got about .38gpw which is about average for growing under T5's IMO. If you add Co2 you should be able to kick it just over .5


i had 20 1 gals. everytime Ive done 8 big ones under an 8 bulb i got around 11 or 12 oz. the sog ones became root bound too, that might of been part of the problem,


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## kpmarine (Jun 9, 2012)

Since I haven't posted here in a while, here's my GDP mother I stretched out under an 8 bulb. Threw in 4 more 4 footers on the sides to help with the lower growth. This is day 19 of 12/12 for her.


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## 48martin (Jun 9, 2012)

Looks like a full healthy canopy KP

Nice Job!


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## PetFlora (Jun 10, 2012)

I figure most people reading this thread would come visit my T 5 grow. The biggest improvement I see is due to switching from DM Gold to Hydroponic-Research VEG + BLOOM. DM was doing a decent job, but V + B is the goods

I took these pics Friday and I swear bud size has doubled already. #2 is of the main stalk, which I snapped 4 weeks ago. Since taking this it is damn near as thick as my forearm. Next time I take a pick I will put my forearm behind it as a reference.

View attachment 2206761


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## hyroot (Jun 12, 2012)

When your redsuns burned out. Did they appear a much darker red and not as bright just before dying? One of my redsuns is doing that. I've been using it since last september.


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## kpmarine (Jun 12, 2012)

hyroot said:


> When your redsuns burned out. Did they appear a much darker red and not as bright just before dying? One of my redsuns is doing that. I've been using it since last september.


It should, that's how other flouros look when they go out. Dark, and maybe flickery.


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## hyroot (Jun 12, 2012)

Well that just sucks. I have not had one burn out on me yet and I've been running them for almost a year. Well I have one extra coral wave I guess I'll use til a new one arrives. Time to order a new one. Maybe another flora sun instead of redsun. Save 5 dol...


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## hyroot (Jun 12, 2012)

Does anyone know if UVL has a manufacture warranty on their bulbs?


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## PetFlora (Jun 14, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Does anyone know if UVL has a manufacture warranty on their bulbs?


Contact them. They know which batches had problems. Batch ID is on each bulb. If yours is one of them, they will probably replace without you sending the bulb back

I use both Red Lifes and Florosuns. The Red Lifes are much 'redder'. more pink actually. I would 'think' there is more useful red in the RL, and since that spectrum is desirable during flower, I would want 2-3/8


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## hyroot (Jun 14, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Contact them. They know which batches had problems. Batch ID is on each bulb. If yours is one of them, they will probably replace without you sending the bulb back
> 
> I use both Red Lifes and Florosuns. The Red Lifes are much 'redder'. more pink actually. I would 'think' there is more useful red in the RL, and since that spectrum is desirable during flower, I would want 2-3/8


I had 3 redsuns, 2 coral waves and 3 flora suns, but one redsun burned out. So I decided to go with a flora sun. To.distribute tye 660nm evenly. I will email them too. If I can get free one. could b backbup for later.


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## PetFlora (Jun 15, 2012)

Just heard from UVL. The 660 will retail @ $19.95. 

*
hyroot, *OR... see if you can exchange it for a 660. Tell Jeff if he exchanges for a 660 that you will post updates in my journal. I'm guessing that it is best in 1/6

I have been running 1/8 9with 3 UVL Redlifes/Suns. I would like to see whether 2/8 is better, but that's a test for another grow. In the mean time I have increased the number of floodings per hour and today increased ppms from ~ 1000-1200. I am pretty sure this strain will love the additional ppms. Also am now flooding every 15 minutes during lights on.

You should come take a look at how I am pushing the envelope in my journal​ 


Share

























 
 
*
https://www.rollitup.org/grow-journal...a-vs-21st.html
*
*Smoking Pot isn't Addictive, but Growing It Sure as Hell Is*​  Edit Post  Reply  Reply With Quote    Journal this Post


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## hyroot (Jun 15, 2012)

Pet. Do you know when they are supposed to hit the stores?

Oh and Ive been talking to Ben at Hydro hut (pro grow) . Considering maybe getting a panel. I asked about how 2 180's would do. He kept pushing the 400 for same area. He would discount the 400 .


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## PetFlora (Jun 15, 2012)

This update came in a couple hours ago from UVL

660s now available @ $19.95

From what I am seeing ith 1/8, I would like to try 2/8


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## kpmarine (Jun 15, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> This update came in a couple hours ago from UVL
> 
> 660s now available @ $19.95
> 
> From what I am seeing ith 1/8, I would like to try 2/8


Did they say through whom? Did you ever hear anything about that fiji spd by the way? I thought they were going to hook us up with a chart.


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## PetFlora (Jun 16, 2012)

I was not involved in the Fiji thing. 

Just order the 660s from your fav vendor


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 17, 2012)

I would like to get to the bottom of this fact or fiction wavelength debate. Has anyone done any real testing with 420nm vs. 460nm to see which is more beneficial or not necessary? I've heard mixed messages when it comes to this debate. It doesn't seem like there is a clear answer. Lately, I've heard that 420nm is the preferred wavelength. 

I do know that the Hortilux Blue MH lamp has to be the best lamp out there for growing. I've only seen great results growing with the Horti Blue. I do know that the lamp contains much lower blue wavelengths down into the 400nm region so could this be the answer? I do know that this lamp has more 420nm than 460nm. It seems the 460nm may be of less importance than the violet wavelengths, 400-420nm. With this being said, I would like to see some side by side comparison between using 460nm and not using 460nm. Has anyone tried combining lamps only using the UVL super actinic for the blue light? Anyone tried mixing only UVL super actinic and UVL red suns yet? Results? I only want tried and true proof, not opinions. The web is full of opinions and not so much actual fact, so please do not quote some science webpage or opinion from someone else because all that matter is facts, tried and true experimentation with photos, etc.
thanks for your input


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## PetFlora (Jun 18, 2012)

*uvl 660 price correction: They are $29.95*


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## kpmarine (Jun 18, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *uvl 660 price correction: They are $29.95*


To support their obvious crack habit? I doubt they'll sell well at that price. I'm personally not spending over $20 a bulb anymore.


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 18, 2012)

Does anyone have any idea what I'm even talking about? I'm surprised no one has jumped in to answer this question about 420 vs. 460. Seems like a hot debate in the other threads involved. Must be a mystery to everyone still.


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## polyarcturus (Jun 18, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Does anyone have any idea what I'm even talking about? I'm surprised no one has jumped in to answer this question about 420 vs. 460. Seems like a hot debate in the other threads involved. Must be a mystery to everyone still.



hmmmm lets try to use common sense today, they are both useful and they make bulbs that cover both ranges.... its up to you to decide the ratios. and then this is more a aquarium or LED specific question since most of the t5 growers are trying to focus on red spectrum.


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## kpmarine (Jun 18, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Does anyone have any idea what I'm even talking about? I'm surprised no one has jumped in to answer this question about 420 vs. 460. Seems like a hot debate in the other threads involved. Must be a mystery to everyone still.


There's a bunch of studies about the various wavelengths linked in this thread that can explain the different wavelength far better than I. Basically though, 420-450nm are the most photosynthetically active blue wavelengths. It's more about efficiency in theory, a plant can use other wavelengths, but it works better if you stick to what the plant has evolved to use best. Too much blue will stall out or slow your growth too. You wan tried and true proof though, you'll have to dig back through this thread and look for the white papers or try to find them in the depths of the internet.


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## polyarcturus (Jun 18, 2012)

ideally you dont need to go to low on the spectrum unless your specialty lighting your flower room, anthing aroun 6500 will hit all the peaks of the blue spectrum and as kp pointed out a slight lowering on the spectrum isnt bad, thats why i roll with 10000k aquasuns and 6700k coralifes. then as fars as if i was flowering with t5 flora suns and coralwaves hit the blues and some extra reds.


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## hyroot (Jun 18, 2012)

I talked to jeff at uvl. There is a 90 day manufacture warranty on all bulbs. Apparently the redsun should only last 8 months to a year. He said that who ever told me they would last 2 years was high. He said he would pro rate me on them but not swap for deep red 660. So it is what it is.


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## hyroot (Jun 19, 2012)

Hey kids

Master kush. Og bubbas 6 days left. T5 it up


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## kpmarine (Jun 19, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Hey kids
> 
> Master kush. Og bubbas 6 days left. T5 it up


Is there no pic? Or is it just me?


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## hyroot (Jun 19, 2012)

its there now. my computer rebooted by itself in the process


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## kpmarine (Jun 19, 2012)

Looking good.


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jun 22, 2012)

Nine days ago


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 22, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


> How come we never get to see any of your finish buds? Or do you just smoke the leaves? Your veg really looks nice, does it carry through to the finish product?


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## WeedFreak78 (Jun 22, 2012)

I've made it to post 1520 in 3 days...I'll be back in a week when I'm done reading...


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jun 22, 2012)

So what kind of yields are you guys getting per watt? I kinda bailed on this thread awhile ago after my laST t5 HARVEST.


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## PetFlora (Jun 23, 2012)

Do T5s produce tight, PHAT buds? Several of my girls have forearm size colas (liter btls used for visual) Here's a tease shot taken yesterday. ~ 3 weeks to go. More in my journal


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jun 23, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Do T5s produce tight, PHAT buds? Several of my girls have forearm size colas (liter btls used for visual) Here's a tease shot taken yesterday. ~ 3 weeks to go. More in my journal
> 
> View attachment 2224402


I've had colas the size of my hand from T5's but they definitely ended up being airy. Could have been strain. I am growing same strain now in my HPS room to see. My T5 grows are on hold for awhile because I need some heavy yields. .4gpw wasn't cutting it.


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## PetFlora (Jun 23, 2012)

My buds are far from airy. Tighter than a virgin and smells just as sweet


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## gamestwin (Jun 24, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> ^^^^^^^your welcome^^^^^^^
> 
> knew it would come in handy some day, I don't tend to throw away much anymore. As you can see the Fiji Purple is a really great bulb. I have been using it in my T5 setup for months and haven't switched it out for obvious reasons. I keep 4 of them in my fixture during veg and flower and have had nothing but positive results. I use 4 Fiji Purple bulbs, 2 UVL Red Sun, and 2 UVL Super Actinic for flower and I think I get better results than under any HID! Puts out a real nice magenta color between them all.


U Mind CLEARING THAT UP A BIT?? AS IN THE POSITION WHERE THE BULBS ARE ON UR FIXTURE FOR I HAVE 2 8 BULB BB FIXTURES TONS OF BULBS BUT DONT HAVE A CLUE HOW TO ASSEMBLE THEM CORRECTLY FOR THE SPECTRUM.


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 24, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I would like to get to the bottom of this fact or fiction wavelength debate. Has anyone done any real testing with 420nm vs. 460nm to see which is more beneficial or not necessary? I've heard mixed messages when it comes to this debate. It doesn't seem like there is a clear answer. Lately, I've heard that 420nm is the preferred wavelength.
> 
> I do know that the Hortilux Blue MH lamp has to be the best lamp out there for growing. I've only seen great results growing with the Horti Blue. I do know that the lamp contains much lower blue wavelengths down into the 400nm region so could this be the answer? I do know that this lamp has more 420nm than 460nm. It seems the 460nm may be of less importance than the violet wavelengths, 400-420nm. With this being said, I would like to see some side by side comparison between using 460nm and not using 460nm. Has anyone tried combining lamps only using the UVL super actinic for the blue light? Anyone tried mixing only UVL super actinic and UVL red suns yet? Results? I only want tried and true proof, not opinions. The web is full of opinions and not so much actual fact, so please do not quote some science webpage or opinion from someone else because all that matter is facts, tried and true experimentation with photos, etc.
> thanks for your input


I was able to find the answers to my own questions for all that are interested. For the last week I've done a side by side with actinic vs 460 and what I found was that without 460nm plants do not do very well and growth slows. Without 420nm you do not get the photo-response as much but seems to be of less importance. 

I did a side by side using only ATI aquablue specials and 660nm in one panel (2/4 and 2/4) and in the other panel I used nothing but Giesemann Actinic Plus and 660nm (2/4 and 2/4). The results were quite comparable. But when I switched to using UVL Super Actinics and 660nm without any 460nm wavelength, growth stopped and the leaves quit "reaching" for the light. The FloraSuns have ample 460nm in them as well and I have started a new panel with Flora suns at 2/4, an Actinic plus at 1/4 and a 660nm at 1/4. The overall light color is more red due to the added red in the FloraSuns so it may be a little more suited for flowering. I would really like to find a good mixture of light that does not have a need to be switched when flipped to 12/12. Does IR really have an effect on the budding process? Has anyone done any side by sides with and without the IR? It can't be as important as the other light bands it seems like.


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## PetFlora (Jun 25, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I was able to find the answers to my own questions for all that are interested. For the last week I've done a side by side with actinic vs 460 and what I found was that without 460nm plants do not do very well and growth slows. Without 420nm you do not get the photo-response as much but seems to be of less importance.
> 
> I did a side by side using only ATI aquablue specials and 660nm in one panel (2/4 and 2/4) and in the other panel I used nothing but Giesemann Actinic Plus and 660nm (2/4 and 2/4). The results were quite comparable. But when I switched to using UVL Super Actinics and 660nm without any 460nm wavelength, growth stopped and the leaves quit "reaching" for the light. The FloraSuns have ample 460nm in them as well and I have started a new panel with Flora suns at 2/4, an Actinic plus at 1/4 and a 660nm at 1/4. The overall light color is more red due to the added red in the FloraSuns so it may be a little more suited for flowering. I would really like to find a good mixture of light that does not have a need to be switched when flipped to 12/12. Does IR really have an effect on the budding process? Has anyone done any side by sides with and without the IR? It can't be as important as the other light bands it seems like.


That's some excellent 411. I am ~ 3 weeks from harvest. Yesterday I replaced a UVL Aquasun with an ATI Aquablue Special pos 1/8 (though it probably needs to be closer to 4 or 5.

*IR*

Go to ledgrow.eu. Hans did a test with pics. Bottom line he included IR diodes, but IR is best provided separately on a separate timer to be on for ~ 30 minutes following main lights out.


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## PetFlora (Jun 25, 2012)

gamestwin said:


> U Mind CLEARING THAT UP A BIT?? AS IN THE POSITION WHERE THE BULBS ARE ON UR FIXTURE FOR I HAVE 2 8 BULB BB FIXTURES TONS OF BULBS BUT DONT HAVE A CLUE HOW TO ASSEMBLE THEM CORRECTLY FOR THE SPECTRUM.


If you keep the bulbs 8-12" above the canopy the light will disperse over a broad area


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## Green green grass of home (Jun 25, 2012)

I've just finished reading through your thread, I must say it has been a fascinating read. I keep an aquarium myself and it never occurred to me about using those lights.

I'd like to say thank you for your research, I'm going to try your methods on my next grow.


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## hyroot (Jun 25, 2012)

FYI DO NOT USE 3 coral waves per 8 bulb. Way too much infrared!!!! I had an extra one laying around when my redsun went out. Used the coral wave for a temporary substitute and had 2 already in. Most of the fan leaves got a little toasty....


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 25, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> That's some excellent 411. I am ~ 3 weeks from harvest. Yesterday I replaced a UVL Aquasun with an ATI Aquablue Special pos 1/8 (though it probably needs to be closer to 4 or 5.
> 
> *IR*
> 
> Go to ledgrow.eu. Hans did a test with pics. Bottom line he included IR diodes, but IR is best provided separately on a separate timer to be on for ~ 30 minutes following main lights out.


I guess I'm not seeing where he talks about the benefit of IR. I see that he says the deepred 660nm was preferred over the cherryred 740nm, but I don't see where he says what the IR addition does to the plants. Could you please link me?


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## PSUAGRO. (Jun 25, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I guess I'm not seeing where he talks about the benefit of IR. I see that he says the deepred 660nm was preferred over the cherryred 740nm, but I don't see where he says what the IR addition does to the plants. Could you please link me?


No IR's on his panel..........it's 4 (hans calls them "far red") lumiled diodes 660nm deep red......the rest are cree xp-e 630/460nm........his omission of uv/ir was due to cost/inefficiency of the current led tech.......


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 25, 2012)

Has anyone seen these before? I know they are not T5's but damn lots of far red in there. Wonder what a T5 combo with these would do? I can't believe no one has mentioned them here.
He says they get really hot which I believe with all the IR they put out. He also says that they turn flowering into a rocket ship ride. Here's the link to thread where I found these.
http://www.420magazine.com/forums/cabinet-closet-grow-room-setup/109816-everything-led-open-source-light-11.html


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## PSUAGRO. (Jun 25, 2012)

All halogens put out huge amounts of IR.......cheap too


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 25, 2012)

PSUAGRO. said:


> All halogens put out huge amounts of IR.......cheap too


So does anyone actually use them? If so what are the results? With a DIY aircooled hood I don't even understand the reason why anyone wouldn't go this route if they actually work well.


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## PSUAGRO. (Jun 25, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> So does anyone actually use them? If so what are the results? With a DIY aircooled hood I don't even understand the reason why anyone wouldn't go this route if they actually work well.


I personally have not/ used CMH bulbs for my grows(plenty of IR).......but there are a couple people who run them at [email protected] ask petflora on how many hours a day to cycle it(on/off).........good luck


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 25, 2012)

https://www.rollitup.org/seed-strain-reviews/539411-limeade-flavor-dna-lemon-skunk.html#post7622358

I think I scored big time.


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## hyroot (Jun 25, 2012)

very frosty. thats going to be some tasty dankness


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Has anyone seen these before? I know they are not T5's but damn lots of far red in there. Wonder what a T5 combo with these would do? I can't believe no one has mentioned them here.View attachment 2227867
> He says they get really hot which I believe with all the IR they put out. He also says that they turn flowering into a rocket ship ride. Here's the link to thread where I found these.
> http://www.420magazine.com/forums/cabinet-closet-grow-room-setup/109816-everything-led-open-source-light-11.html



I think KNNA says 25-50 watts of HID for IR


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I guess I'm not seeing where he talks about the benefit of IR. I see that he says the deepred 660nm was preferred over the cherryred 740nm, but I don't see where he says what the IR addition does to the plants. Could you please link me?



One of his test grows showed a pic of 6-8 root systems. it appears he added a bunch of pics and I don't have the time to dig through them all, but look for that: it talks about IR


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## hyroot (Jun 26, 2012)

These are me razzleberries. 6 days left. Look at these donkays. Still no flora suns to replace the burned out ones in the og 8 bulb. They're sitting a my buddies and he is out of town. Yaaaaahhhhhh. But theres only 4 sog here. So since too many coral waves. Moved one to position 1. Then 2 redsuns in 3 , 5 and coral wave in 4 ,6 and the rest fiji n flora suns yesterday. So the girls are chillin directly under the redsuns and coral waves. I swear they swelled up at least 25% since yesterday. So keep your resdsuns and coral waves next to each other. 


Theres 2 bubbas in the back of pics only at 3 weeks though. In 2 gal home made air root bags. Hehe lol.

When I get bulbs this weekend. It will be 

flora sun / coral wave / redsun / flora sun / flora sun / redsun / coral wave / flora sun.

Taking led approach now and moving IR ( cw ) towards outside.




Dare I say I will be adding a 276 true watt led. 3w x 120. Apollo 8 / Cidly to the room. Hopefully it will be here sooner than later. Its coming from China and that will be per orb (8 orbs)



5 Red 660nm (90 degree)
3 Red 650-670nm (90 degree)
2 Red 630-640nm (90 degree)
1 Orange 610-615nm (90 degree)
1 Blue 450-470nm (90 degree)
1 Blue 420-430nm (90 degree)
1 White 10,000K (90 degree)
1 White 2700K (90 degree)

I wasnt sure about adding IR to led its at 730nm and not 760 like the cw. It runs at .7 w instead of 2.3w like the other diodes. So loss in wattage. Might add single or 2 bulb cw to led area for IR and uv-a actinics.


I can't wait to finish some par t5 / led dankness.

I shall smoke trees Beavis Hehehehehe.


Im awesome!


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2012)

*hyroot: *I m not convinced that proximity to one another is all that critical (assuming you have the bulbs ~ 10 above the canopy), but I have been doing it anyway. However, I am following your lead and made a few adjustments

1/8 RS
2/8 FS- was ATI Spec Blue Actinic (SBA)
3/8 ATI SBA was FS- was FS
4/8 RS
5/8 660
6/8 CW- was FS
7/8 RS
8/8 FS

I might still swap 1 & 2 

LEDs

FWIW, from what I've studied I would go with the opposite numbers for the reds (660 is least needed)


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jun 26, 2012)

hyroot said:


> These are me razzleberries. 6 days left. Look at these donkays. Still no flora suns to replace the burned out ones in the og 8 bulb. They're sitting a my buddies and he is out of town. Yaaaaahhhhhh. But theres only 4 sog here. So since too many coral waves. Moved one to position 1. Then 2 redsuns in 3 , 5 and coral wave in 4 ,6 and the rest fiji n flora suns yesterday. So the girls are chillin directly under the redsuns and coral waves. I swear they swelled up at least 25% since yesterday. So keep your resdsuns and coral waves next to each other.
> 
> 
> Theres 2 bubbas in the back of pics only at 3 weeks though. In 2 gal home made air root bags. Hehe lol.
> ...


What is your Grams Per watt average? The most ive seen yet is .5


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 26, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> FWIW, from what I've studied I would go with the opposite numbers for the reds (660 is least needed)


I 100% disagree. From the results I'm getting when adding the Kessil 660/630(75%/25%) to 108w T5 of 420/460 blue light, I would say that 660nm is the most important for increasing plant and bud size as well as growth rate. I've never seen anything like this before. For example here is a Sour D grown under a blue T5/Kessil h150 Red light combination which is the same age as this Sour D grown under a 400w Hortilux HPS. Notice the huge difference? This is at week 2 of flowering.

Plants have the ability to adapt to light, so if your blu/red proportions are correct, I don't think it's that big of deal. I think there is a reason the Florasun's are made with less 630nm than 660nm, but it's only a guess. All I know is the added 660nm is working for me. 228w of red/blue light vs. 400w of hps.......I know what I like.


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## kpmarine (Jun 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I 100% disagree. From the results I'm getting when adding the Kessil 660/630(75%/25%) to 108w T5 of 420/460 blue light, I would say that 660nm is the most important for increasing plant and bud size as well as growth rate. I've never seen anything like this before. For example here is a Sour D grown under a blue/Kessil h150 Red light combination which is the same age as this Sour D grown under a 400w Hortilux HPS. Notice the huge difference? This is at week 2 of flowering.View attachment 2229188


But have you tried changing the 660 to 630 ratios? If you look at the amount of both used, it really only favors 660 slightly over 630. It would seem to me that 50/50 or 60/40, favoring the 660, would be closer to optimum. That's just my opinion though.


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 26, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> But have you tried changing the 660 to 630 ratios? If you look at the amount of both used, it really only favors 660 slightly over 630. It would seem to me that 50/50 or 60/40, favoring the 660, would be closer to optimum. That's just my opinion though.


No, I don't have that ability. The kessils are built that way. I guess I trust the people that have done the tests already. I can say I'm having better luck with the 660nm T5's vs. the 630nm redsuns though. Overall, I like the penetrating capability of the Kessils and the ability to grow trees with them.


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## kpmarine (Jun 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> No, I don't have that ability. The kessils are built that way. I guess I trust the people that have done the tests already. I can say I'm having better luck with the 660nm T5's vs. the 630nm redsuns though. Overall, I like the penetrating capability of the Kessils and the ability to grow trees with them.


As the saying goes, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it."


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## hyroot (Jun 26, 2012)

actually chlorophyll absorbs the most light between 680nm and 700 nm. so 660nm would definitely produce better results than 630nm of course together is even better. the redsuns do have a 30% purple spike at just before 700nm. im thinking now just rock 4 flora suns and 4 redsuns and just add IR reptile bulbs to the outside. Run those only half the time


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## Beagle (Jun 26, 2012)

I have yet to even start my 100% t5 grow, but it's coming soon...my "bunk bed" system is almost finished and I'm planning on replacing my HPS before I've even finished construction. Even if the yield is smaller, the space I'm using compared to my current system will make up for it(I'm hopeful). 

Let me tell you that I am very excited to see the spd graph of these UVL 660nm. If nothing comes of it, I plan on fs, rs, cw, fs,rs,cw, fs,rs...I'm sure everybody gets the abbreviations. Space is limited, as is my budget...so I'm speaking of flowering only while I use the stock 6500k bulbs for veg...sorry. If these 660s pan out it may be 50/50 fs/660 for flower....lets just say I hope the 660s don't take as long as the wave point ultra growths take to come out!


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## UnderCurrentDWC (Jun 26, 2012)




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## PetFlora (Jun 27, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I 100% disagree. From the results I'm getting when adding the Kessil 660/630(75%/25%) to 108w T5 of 420/460 blue light, I would say that 660nm is the most important for increasing plant and bud size as well as growth rate. I've never seen anything like this before. For example here is a Sour D grown under a blue T5/Kessil h150 Red light combination which is the same age as this Sour D grown under a 400w Hortilux HPS. Notice the huge difference? This is at week 2 of flowering.View attachment 2229188
> 
> Plants have the ability to adapt to light, so if your blu/red proportions are correct, I don't think it's that big of deal. I think there is a reason the Florasun's are made with less 630nm than 660nm, but it's only a guess. All I know is the added 660nm is working for me. 228w of red/blue light vs. 400w of hps.......I know what I like.


The following is a C/P from SX on another site. He also drops in on RIU as *The Lurker. *There are a few graphs and discussion that leads into: 

*(i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):*


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## Green green grass of home (Jun 27, 2012)

UnderCurrentDWC said:


>




My God man, that set up looks awesome.


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 27, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> The following is a C/P from SX on another site. He also drops in on RIU as *The Lurker. *There are a few graphs and discussion that leads into:
> 
> *(i.e. 630nm red is ~95% of the PSR of 660nm, AND they currently still have ~20-30% greater radiometric efficiency - as well as being cheaper than the deep reds - so there's more 'bang for the buck'):*


Hmmmm, gets ya thinking that's for sure. Hyroot do you have anything to add?


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## hyroot (Jun 27, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> What is your Grams Per watt average? The most ive seen yet is .5


It varies every batch. My last which has been the smallest yield sog, was 0.4 gpw. But before that I got 0.8 gpw. My last sog which im estimating will be 0.5 to 0.6 gpw. The ones I have vegging for the last 5 weeks are going in flower tomorrow and I expect to get much much more. I have had better yields with fewer big plants than small sog.


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## hyroot (Jun 27, 2012)

I found that post in ic mag. http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=229278&page=5

There's a diagram from an led company. But no actual scientific data to back it up. That guy goes on to say you can get by with just 630's but with both you will have better results.. So if 630 has 95% of the psr that 660 has. Irregardless of that, what matters is where chlorophyll absorbs the light. Chlorophyll B absorbs 630nm , Chlorophyll A absorbs 660nm. Remember class Chlorophyll A makes up 75% of chlorophyll

See that. I just dropped a knowledge bomb. Boo ya ka sha


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## jimmy glitzz (Jun 27, 2012)

I know this thread is old, but professeur all your attempts to sound like some grow guru genius just makes you sound like a retard. put some lights on the sh&t, water it, show it some love and it'll do fine. I'm sure you're one super educated individual, but damn dude, quit being so condescending and arrogant.


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## hyroot (Jun 27, 2012)

jimmy glitzz said:


> I know this thread is old, but professeur all your attempts to sound like some grow guru genius just makes you sound like a retard. put some lights on the sh&t, water it, show it some love and it'll do fine. I'm sure you're one super educated individual, but damn dude, quit being so condescending and arrogant.



hey there newbie ,you come in here talking shit, we don't want or need that. haters not allowed. what do you bring to the table to offer? nothing. pro gave us a new way of looking at things using less watts with better spectrum as a cheaper alternative to led and he just got sick of all the rhetoric from people like you. I would react the same way. especially if i know I'm right. so before you come in with your ignorance. maybe open your mind and you might learn something.

we all proved we can out perform hid with this way.




dang cavemen trolls


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## PetFlora (Jun 28, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Hmmmm, gets ya thinking that's for sure. Hyroot do you have anything to add?



*Fonz,* I think you will want to read the entire thread before RIU pulls the link (I have it copied) to the info that hyroot posted. 

SX has taught me a lot. Wish he hung out more often. I suggested that he write an e-book on the subject


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## PetFlora (Jun 28, 2012)

I've been considering the benefits of Inda-Grow lighting once I got that I spend ~ $200/year in bulb replacement, then I read this:


_I don't think i`d want to be spending a lot of time in the near field of what is effectively a 2.65mhz transmitter/antenna operating at several hundred watts _


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 28, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *Fonz,* I think you will want to read the entire thread before RIU pulls the link (I have it copied) to the info that hyroot posted.
> 
> SX has taught me a lot. Wish he hung out more often. I suggested that he write an e-book on the subject


I read part of it. I guess what really confuses me is why the UFO company pulled their 460/630 light when people said they were having piss poor results and switched to the UFO's with 660 instead if 630 really does work by itself. I know HPS works and there is pretty much no 630 or 660 but it's also not running of only 1 wavelength either.


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## PetFlora (Jun 28, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I've been considering the benefits of Inda-Grow lighting once I got that I spend ~ $200/year in bulb replacement, then I read this:
> 
> 
> _I don't think i`d want to be spending a lot of time in the near field of what is effectively a 2.65mhz transmitter/antenna operating at several hundred watts _


I emailed IG. 

Here is IGs reply




I don&#8217;t know where he got that information. We&#8217;re running the drivers @ 240 kHz. To equate that with AM radio bandwidth; @ 560 kHz we operate at less than half that bandwidth. 



In lay people terms what it really means is that when compared to 60hZ magnetic or 50kHz digital ballasts we simply operate at a much lower current but a higher frequency to excite the gasses via the two coils that wrap around the glass bulb. The driver, cable and coils are all insulated and we meet all FCC standards for EMF suppression which without the use of electrodes is exceptionally energy and PAR efficient when compared to electrode style lamps.

Hope that helps 



 *Darryl Cotton*
 President


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## PetFlora (Jun 28, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I read part of it. I guess what really confuses me is why the UFO company pulled their 460/630 light when people said they were having piss poor results and switched to the UFO's with 660 instead if 630 really does work by itself. I know HPS works and there is pretty much no 630 or 660 but it's also not running of only 1 wavelength either.



Sounds like they are as flaky as we are lol There could be any number of OTHER reasons, but they blamed it on the spectral balance


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## PetFlora (Jun 28, 2012)

The importance of UVB and how to max it indoors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MLuqpsBmTWM&list=UUc7IPosooLoG_lxXYvporkw&index=5&feature=plcp


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## Kite High (Jun 29, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I emailed IG.
> 
> Here is IGs reply
> 
> ...


I have an Associate that employed 4 400 watters for 3 grows. He had MORE heat problems and lower production than from 2 600 watt hps with UVB attenuation. IMO just a glorified fluorescent as well as no way to put ballast heat outside of the grow environment.


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## novice11 (Jun 29, 2012)

Hello. I was one of the Pr0fesseur's early adopters with the aquarium lights. Been gone from the thread for awhile. I need some knowledgeable advice from those who know...

I currently have an 8 bulb T5 setup. For VEG, I used : KZ Purple / UVL Red Sun / KZ Purple / UVL Super Act 420........./ UVL 75.25 / UVL 454 / Red Sun / KZ Purple.

I am now in BLOOM using........................................ KZ Purple / UVL Red Sun / KZ Purple / Wave Point Coral Wave / UVL Red Sun / UVL 454 / Red Sun / KZ Purple.

One of the Red Suns just died. What should I replace it with? Another Red Sun ? One of the new UVL 660's ? Something else?

Also - should I be using a Flora-Sun instead of any of these? Or are there better lights to use in any of the slots for VEG or BLOOM ?

Thanks.


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## nuskool89 (Jun 29, 2012)

AlrIght I have gotten 4 pages in and want to try this. I've got a 2 foot 6 bulb fixture i use to veg and flower. Someone for the love of god please show me what I need. The people who have been doing this a while now are the people I would love some quick help from

What 6 bulbs for veg

Then what 6 bulbs for bloom

Then where to get all these bulbs online

I really appreciate your time


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## PetFlora (Jun 30, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Hello. I was one of the Pr0fesseur's early adopters with the aquarium lights. Been gone from the thread for awhile. I need some knowledgeable advice from those who know...
> 
> I currently have an 8 bulb T5 setup. For VEG, I used : KZ Purple / UVL Red Sun / KZ Purple / UVL Super Act 420........./ UVL 75.25 / UVL 454 / Red Sun / KZ Purple.
> 
> ...


A 660 would be a nice addition. When the 454 & 75/25 or KZ dies you can replace with FS


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 30, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> A 660 would be a nice addition. When the 454 & 75/25 or KZ dies you can replace with FS


But the 75/25 is 75% actinic lighting and the Florasun has no actinic in it. Might want to keep the 75/25 or get a 50/50 or actinic plus or super actinic


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 30, 2012)

The UVL 660nm are grrreeeat lamps you guys. I don't know why anyone says they are a whitish color because they are definitely not whitish at all. They are very nice deep red color. Much redder than the Redsun lamps and quite a bit less orange. Right now I am running a 4 lamp T5 fixture with 2 Zoomed Ultra Sun white lamps and a Giesemann actinic plus and UVL 660nm in the middle. Lamp placement is Ultrasun, 660nm, actinic plus, Ultrasun and it's a bluish purple white overall color. I like what it's doing to the plants. They have been nice and perky and no strange looking growth. I was starting to see some crazy looking twisted, dark green, not normal looking growth on the Sour D's and Blueberry with the actinic plus/660nm 50/50 setup. Bulb order was actinic plus, 660nm, actinic plus, 660nm and although it was a super deep purple color I am willing to bet that there was to much 420nm light or blue overall causing the strange growth. As soon as I added the 2 Ultrasuns the growth went back to normal. I really prefer a full-spectrum type of light with an emphasis on deep blue and deep red since regular T5 full spec lamps do not have the deep blue and red in them. I would recommend this setup for veg most definitely. 

For flowering I am thinking 2 Flora Suns(one on each side) and an actinic plus and 660nm in the middle. In other words, switch out the Ultra's for the Floras at flower time. Otherwise I may replace the actinic plus with a 75/25 since it has less blue. 

Here is a shot of my fixture with my current veg setup. I had to ditch my plants because they got infested with thrips and other shit. So now I am starting over from cuttings. I will take new photos in a few weeks. Current lamp setup, ultra sun, actinic plus, 660nm, ultra sun T5 HO 4' lamp.


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## Buzzo (Jun 30, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> The UVL 660nm are grrreeeat lamps you guys. I don't know why anyone says they are a whitish color because they are definitely not whitish at all. They are very nice deep red color. Much redder than the Redsun lamps and quite a bit less orange. Right now I am running a 4 lamp T5 fixture with 2 Zoomed Ultra Sun white lamps and a Giesemann actinic plus and UVL 660nm in the middle. Lamp placement is Ultrasun, 660nm, actinic plus, Ultrasun and it's a bluish purple white overall color. I like what it's doing to the plants. They have been nice and perky and no strange looking growth. I was starting to see some crazy looking twisted, dark green, not normal looking growth on the Sour D's and Blueberry with the actinic plus/660nm 50/50 setup. Bulb order was actinic plus, 660nm, actinic plus, 660nm and although it was a super deep purple color I am willing to bet that there was to much 420nm light or blue overall causing the strange growth. As soon as I added the 2 Ultrasuns the growth went back to normal. I really prefer a full-spectrum type of light with an emphasis on deep blue and deep red since regular T5 full spec lamps do not have the deep blue and red in them. I would recommend this setup for veg most definitely.
> 
> For flowering I am thinking 2 Flora Suns(one on each side) and an actinic plus and 660nm in the middle. In other words, switch out the Ultra's for the Floras at flower time. Otherwise I may replace the actinic plus with a 75/25 since it has less blue.
> 
> ...


Nice array Fonz. Although, for flowering, I'd definitely swap out that actinic plus for a coral wave.

Also, where did you purchase the UVL 660?


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 30, 2012)

Buzzo said:


> Nice array Fonz. Although, for flowering, I'd definitely swap out that actinic plus for a coral wave.
> 
> Also, where did you purchase the UVL 660?


The only place to get them is UVL I believe.


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## Dizzler82 (Jun 30, 2012)

Hey Professor,

Are the uvl 22" the same as regular HO 24"? I noticed that they list the lengths on their website and are 22" 34" or 46"?


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## polyarcturus (Jun 30, 2012)

yes. not profesuer but yes, the measurements for t5 bulbs are slightly shorter then t12 or t8 bulbs(IE 48" t8 is 48" but a 48" t5 is 46")


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## Fonzarelli (Jun 30, 2012)

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:Ix-5O48XF2QJ:www.life.illinois.edu/govindjee/photosynBook/Chapter9.pdf+420+nm+and+photosynthesis+terrestrial&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShmtuJmKvbHdMcLNunw33Mva9tR2-lpMD6vA6GOzfvO7f06OB-E2yEBmfg-jym47fot9RaubFlu0UyhlVG4kXdpL3jiAtC9G6OnxeM4TddIW4DcHx4FZw0QUHTzeBSLN5Ew6g4p&sig=AHIEtbQXCPKD001lbFwfRNgKn8W6f8X7OQ


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 1, 2012)

Almost forgot the most important wavelengths. LOL,


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## Dr.J20 (Jul 2, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Almost forgot the most important wavelengths. LOL,


This is what's up... thanks fonzi!
be easy


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## forb1d (Jul 2, 2012)

*Hey everyone, I just recently started my first little project, I decided to use fluorescent for certain advantages and lack of money for a nice LED system.
I just ordered an eight bulb t5 system.
My main question is what bulbs should i use within the Veg and Bloom cycle?
veg: uvl 660?
Bloom?coral wave, 


*


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 2, 2012)

forb1d said:


> *Hey everyone, I just recently started my first little project, I decided to use fluorescent for certain advantages and lack of money for a nice LED system.
> I just ordered an eight bulb t5 system.
> My main question is what bulbs should i use within the Veg and Bloom cycle?
> veg: uvl 660?
> ...


Coral waves are supposedly good to throw in there to get the Emerson effect since they have added IR. Anyone else care to elaborate on this? I'm not sure if you want the Emerson effect only in flower or both veg and flower. Seems like you would want 30% increased growth in both veg and flower, just an opinion though.


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## hyroot (Jul 2, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Coral waves are supposedly good to throw in there to get the Emerson effect since they have added IR. Anyone else care to elaborate on this? I'm not sure if you want the Emerson effect only in flower or both veg and flower. Seems like you would want 30% increased growth in both veg and flower, just an opinion though.



coral waves only use in flower. a couple hundred pages back i said how the IR in the coral waves were causing my plants in veg to start flowering 15 hours after i added the coral waves. After finding a study on the effects of infrared lighting on plants at Texas A&M. That backed up my theory of IR only in flower. IR drives flowering and makes plants to start flowering much sooner.

it has a blue peak at 420 nm but reaches from 380nm to 460nm. so it has uv-a too and an IR peak at 760 nm that reaches from 740nm to 780nm

coral wave


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 2, 2012)

OOps, guess I will take it out of my veg fixture then lol. Switch'n it out for a super actinic


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 4, 2012)

http://glassbox-design.com/2009/arcadia-ot2-led-t5/

how about one of these with the new UVL 660nm on both sides in the T5 slots. The middle has the blue/white spectrum all it needs is the red. LOL, pretty basic idea. Now we can grow in fish tanks with ease!


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## forb1d (Jul 5, 2012)

Thank you again Fonzarelli for helping me with the lights!
I have chosen to use these bulbs with an 8 light setup.
Whats everyone else think of this bulb combination?
Should I switch any with a coral wave?

Veg:2 Aquablues, 2 Actinic Plus, 4 UVL 660nm

BLOOM:
6 UVL 660nm, 1 Actinic Plus, 1 Aquablue special


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## polyarcturus (Jul 5, 2012)

perfect and simple, i would have went with Aquasun and florasuns(instead of Actinic and aqaua) but i all depends on what available and cheap for ya

ad some UVB and youll have the full spectrum for optimal plant growth


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## forb1d (Jul 5, 2012)

Which ones should be switched out over the other? Take a UVL out of each cycle and throw in a UVB?
Aquasun replaces Aquablues while the florasuns replace the actinic plus?


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## hyroot (Jul 5, 2012)

Flora suns have 5% uv b. Otherwise you would have to get t8 or cfl reptile bulbs for uv b


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## novice11 (Jul 5, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> But the 75/25 is 75% actinic lighting and the Florasun has no actinic in it. Might want to keep the 75/25 or get a 50/50 or actinic plus or super actinic


Already have the 420 Super Actinic. What 50/50 are you speaking of? Any other recommendations?


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 5, 2012)

forb1d said:


> Thank you again Fonzarelli for helping me with the lights!
> I have chosen to use these bulbs with an 8 light setup.
> Whats everyone else think of this bulb combination?
> Should I switch any with a coral wave?
> ...


Aquasun has 420nm in it. Actinic + has 420nm in it as well as 460nm. The aquasuns have other parts of the spectrum not used quite as much so using the actinic + gives you more usable energy. It's really something you need to mess around with until you get the color you and your plants like. I have a variety of lamps that I use. I like the aquablue specials because they have those "other parts" of the spectrum that is good for human viewing. Not so much for plant growth. They also have a huge 460nm and 480nm spike which the plants use. I don't use Super Actinics anymore because I've been under the impression that my plants like the 460nm over the 420nm. I've actually seen quite a bit of proof that 420nm is really unnecessary altogether. There should be enough 420nm in pretty much any T5 lamp. They all have a spike at 420nm. I have the 75/25 UVL in one of my fixtures which has a big 420nm in it just to see if it really makes a difference. A lot of LED grow lights are using the 460nm spectrum for the blue. I guess it is the best because all the different photosynthesis processes as well as the carotenoids can use that wavelength. You could even get by with 2 aquablue specials and 6 UVL 660nm for bloom. The 630nm and 660nm is what is so important for bloom. 

The Florasuns have both 460 and the red spectrum in equal portions. A good mixture with those for bloom could be 4 Florasuns and 4 UVL 660nm. Overall you want to create a magenta hue for flower and a purple hue for veg. The plants are going to grow better with any of these lamps than with your standard 6500k and 3000k veg and bloom(white and yellow) types of lamps. Hope this helps.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 5, 2012)

Another thing to note is that there is little difference inbetween the manufacturers. For instance, the ATI blue plus is pretty much the same as the UVL 454 lamp which is pretty much the same as the Giesemann Actinic Plus. The Actinic plus has a little more 420nm in it however and appears slightly darker blue. The zoomed ocean sun and the ati aquablue special are pretty much the same as well. So if you want to save some mad cash you can go with zoomed. The Zoomed Florasuns, the Sylvania Gro-Lux, the Wavepoint Ultra Growth, and the UVL Procolor are all pretty much the same as well. 

The only company making the 660nm specials are UVL. It's important, but not necessary to add the 660nm UVL's because they will really boost your bloom cycle. You can get by with the Florasuns for the 660nm, but you will have quite a bit of extra blue in there which will not accelerate growth as much.


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## hyroot (Jul 5, 2012)

If you got the uvl 660 bulbs. You must of seen the spd chart. It has a little blue in it but more green than the flora sun. The 660 does have a very wide red spike.

The gro lux far exceeds any of the bulbs. It has 100% 420 and 80% 660 peaks. Its the best t5 bulb for flower. Unfortunately the gro lux is only sold in the U.K. Flora suns have a higher 660 peak than the uvl 660. The uvl 660 has a much wider red from 600 to 700nm. Alot of which is useless. The aqua blue special and ocean suns are not alike. The ati has much higher peaks. No red, just blue, green, and orange. I have the aqua blue specials in my veg.




Remember with par its not how it appears to the human eye but what the plants need.

Have you even seen any of these spd's?


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 5, 2012)

^^^ well said fonza.....+ rep.........for me florasun/6400k had the best visible growth under it....


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## forb1d (Jul 5, 2012)

are the 660 uvl's only in vho??


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## hyroot (Jul 5, 2012)

No they are HO. We dont use vho. They last half the time because they are driven so hard and are 96 watts. There is very few aquarium bulbs that are vho


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## polyarcturus (Jul 6, 2012)

i would get a merc vape bulb personally and not waste any of your tube space with UVB bulbs. a merc vape bulb air cooled with a duct fan could have great UVB output for a year or so.(considering it used under 10 hours a day.) the flourescent have to be replaced every six months or so since a chemical reaction(polorization) takes place in the glass after a time that significantly reduces the amount of UVB.


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## PetFlora (Jul 6, 2012)

forb1d said:


> are the 660 uvl's only in vho??


This VHO v HO came up early on when the HO bulbs I purchased have VHO printed on them. I was assured they are not specifically vho.

As if it's not confusing enough


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## kpmarine (Jul 6, 2012)

hyroot said:


> If you got the uvl 660 bulbs. You must of seen the spd chart. It has a little blue in it but more.green than the florasun. The 660 does have a very wide red spike.
> 
> The gro lux far exceeds any of the bulbs. It has.100% 420 and 80% 660 peaks. Its the best t5 bulb for flower. Unfortunately the gro lux is only sold in the U.K. Florusuns have a higer 660 peak.than the uvl 660. The uvl 660 has a much wider red from 600 to 700nm. Alot of which is useless.the aqua blue special and ocean suns are not alike. The ati has much higher peaks. No red. Just blue green, orange. I have the aqua blue specials in my veg.
> 
> ...


So now that it is commonly-available knowledge and all. What is the 660's SPD? Could you post a pic of it?


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## polyarcturus (Jul 6, 2012)

any bulb can be run in the VHO situation, it was a failed marketing plot by lighting companies several years ago to try and improve the "t5" design, tons and tons of aquarium dudes are overdriving HO bulbs to VHO levels for cheaper than the VHO bulbs and they last just as long, i believe the difference between the 2 types are very minor,(amt of phosphor, ignite temps, electrode used ect)


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## forb1d (Jul 6, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> any bulb can be run in the VHO situation, it was a failed marketing plot by lighting companies several years ago to try and improve the "t5" design, tons and tons of aquarium dudes are overdriving HO bulbs to VHO levels for cheaper than the VHO bulbs and they last just as long, i believe the difference between the 2 types are very minor,(amt of phosphor, ignite temps, electrode used ect)


Thank you for clearing that up. Saw different fixtures and what not so I just assumed they were not compatible.
Thank you as well PetFlora.
Much appreciation for all the help. Just got my fixture and bulbs in today 
Just need to figure out what I'm going to use to hang them.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

I am 100% convinced now that a spectacular grow light can be created with the 450-480nm wavelength and the 600-700nm wavelength with nothing inbetween. I've seen the best grows without the use of X nm < 450nm. I have just ordered a couple CurrentUSA 460nm actinic T5 HO to replace my Actinic Plus. I will be running 2 x CurrentUSA 460nm and 2 x UVL 660nm in my fixture to test the hypothesis. This will give me 3 main peak wavelengths of 460nm, 630nm and 660nm. Of course there are a few other peaks that are in the lamps that cannot be helped, but the main ones will be what drives photosynthesis etc.


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## Beagle (Jul 8, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I am 100% convinced now that a spectacular grow light can be created with the 450-480nm wavelength and the 600-700nm wavelength with nothing inbetween. I've seen the best grows without the use of X nm < 450nm. I have just ordered a couple CurrentUSA 460nm actinic T5 HO to replace my Actinic Plus. I will be running 2 x CurrentUSA 460nm and 2 x UVL 660nm in my fixture to test the hypothesis. This will give me 3 main peak wavelengths of 460nm, 630nm and 660nm. Of course there are a few other peaks that are in the lamps that cannot be helped, but the main ones will be what drives photosynthesis etc.


Where is everyone getting these UVL 660nm bulbs?


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## kpmarine (Jul 8, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I am 100% convinced now that a spectacular grow light can be created with the 450-480nm wavelength and the 600-700nm wavelength with nothing inbetween. I've seen the best grows without the use of X nm < 450nm. I have just ordered a couple CurrentUSA 460nm actinic T5 HO to replace my Actinic Plus. I will be running 2 x CurrentUSA 460nm and 2 x UVL 660nm in my fixture to test the hypothesis. This will give me 3 main peak wavelengths of 460nm, 630nm and 660nm. Of course there are a few other peaks that are in the lamps that cannot be helped, but the main ones will be what drives photosynthesis etc.


Would you mind snapping a pic of the SPD for that 660? I still don't think anyone that hasn't bought one has seen it.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

My new setup will be 2 x currentusa 460nm T5 HO,
And 2 x UVL 660nm T5 HO,


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## Beagle (Jul 8, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> My new setup will be 2 x currentusa 460nm T5 HO,View attachment 2245836
> And 2 x UVL 660nm T5 HO,View attachment 2245837


Where did you get this?


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## polyarcturus (Jul 8, 2012)

yeah dude how did you get those, those look correct to me too lol. wtf ive emailed all the companys..... you work in a fish store? lol


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## 2001vettez06 (Jul 8, 2012)

yeah I'm confused as to the best place to buy bulbs at??? I can get some on Amazon, some on reefgeeks, but nobody seems to have all of what I need and shipping starts to add up from various vendors. I am considering UVL red suns, I would like some of the UVL 660's(can't find them for sale), and some Florasuns.

I have a couple 8 bulb 4ft t5 fixtures so I'm not sure what to run as for bulbs and where
Was thinking for

Veg: Probably won't use a veg mix and go straight from clone to 12/12 on a SOG 2l hempi run, but anyway if I do here goes
Mix of 2 Actinic blues, 2 florasuns, 2 10k's and 2 6500k

bloom:
Redsun or UVL 660 if I can find em
Florasun
Redsun
10k
actinic blue
redsun
florasun
redsun or UVL 660 if I can find em

what do you guys think?


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> you work in a fish store? lol


No, lol. Just ask I guess. The SPD's are pretty damn important anyway, I can't imagine why any company would not want to share it with potential customers. Unless they don't like selling their products.


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I am 100% convinced now that a spectacular grow light can be created with the 450-480nm wavelength and the 600-700nm wavelength with nothing inbetween. I've seen the best grows without the use of X nm < 450nm. I have just ordered a couple CurrentUSA 460nm actinic T5 HO to replace my Actinic Plus. I will be running 2 x CurrentUSA 460nm and 2 x UVL 660nm in my fixture to test the hypothesis. This will give me 3 main peak wavelengths of 460nm, 630nm and 660nm. Of course there are a few other peaks that are in the lamps that cannot be helped, but the main ones will be what drives photosynthesis etc.


I would use both 420 and 450. Chlorophyll B uses more blue than chlorophyll A, but chlorophyll A makes up 75% of chlorophyll.


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> My new setup will be 2 x currentusa 460nm T5 HO,View attachment 2245836
> And 2 x UVL 660nm T5 HO,View attachment 2245837


That is no the same spd that jeff from uvl sent me. Ive tried to.get spd from current and they refused to give one. They just referred a link to their faq where they state what nm it peaks at.

I do not believe those are real spd's.


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## Beagle (Jul 8, 2012)

Where did you get these 660 bulbs, or what process did you go through to acquire them?


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Where did you get these 660 bulbs, or what process did you go through to acquire them?


Go to uvlco email sales and ask about the deep 660 bulbs available and an spd for the bulb. You should get a reply in couple days to a week. 

They charge around $30 for freight from ohio to west coast. So for 29.95 per bulb plus freight. Not worth it to me. You can get 4 flora suns for less than 2 uvl 660's


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## polyarcturus (Jul 8, 2012)

i wish i would read the whole website..... i will be making a stop a UVLCO tomorrow.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I would use both 420 and 450. Chlorophyll B uses more blue than chlorophyll A, but chlorophyll A makes up 75% of chlorophyll.


How do you explain the people that are getting amazing results with only using the ~460nm spectrum in LEDs? I know that in the "books" it says 420nm for Chloro A, but the "books" aren't talking about MJ either. The CurrentUSA graph was emailed to me from CurrentUSA. It's definately not a computer generated SPD, but it's a representation of approximately what the lamp puts out. 

Most lamp manufacturers use an "artistic SPD" to get the basic idea over. I've seen what real computerized SPD's look like, for example the UVL 660nm. That is definitely not an artistic SPD graph. I'm sure the CurrentUSA 460nm Actinic has the same small spikes at 420, 440, and 550nm that all T5 HO lamps do, but it's so insignificant that they don't bother confusing their customers with it. Those narrow tiny spikes in the 660nm are insignificant as well if you have ever seen the 660nm lamp when powered up. It's bright red with no hints of green or blue in it whatsoever. I am game to your opinions though. To each his/her own bro.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> That is no the same spd that jeff from uvl sent me.
> I do not believe those are real spd's.


Please post the UVL spd for the 660nm then if you have it. Otherwise I call b.s. on you.


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## kpmarine (Jul 8, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Please post the UVL spd for the 660nm then if you have it. Otherwise I call b.s. on you.


He was one of the few who got a 660 before they were for sale, play nice now. Maybe they changed something in production.


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

I have never seen an led with only 460. most led dont have just 460 diodes. They have the same amount of 420 - 430 diodes as 450- 470 diodes. I was told by jeff sahgy not to release the spd. Spd's are not artistic. They use a radiospectrometer then a software to relay the info to a pc. But pm me your email and I will send it. Jeff told me they had to put green in there to help produce a deeper ted. It did not make sense to me. But I nevef made a bulb before so I couldn't debate that. You have to have argon with phosphors for it to work right I guess.

You posted a bunch of b.s. Saying all those bulbs were the same. When in reality you were way off. So that lowered your credit score.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I have never seen an led with only 460. most led dont have 460 diodes. They have the same amount of 420 diodes as 450 diodes. I was told by jeff sahgy not to release the spd. Spd's are not artistic. They use a radiospectrometer then a software to relay the info to a pc. But pm me your email and I will send it.
> 
> You posted a bunch of b.s. Saying all those bulbs were the same. When in reality you were way off. So that lowered your credit score.


What do I have to gain by posting false info? Credit score? Lmao.

The lamps I said were similar are actually quite similar. Please show how they are not. Feel free to post whatever images you need to call false info on me. It is possible they changed the phosphors in production, I wouldn't know.

As far as LED growth lamps that contain only 460nm, check out Illumitex LED. 
http://www.illumitex.com/horticulture-led/
Their Blue Led peaks around 450nm

Also, check out http://www.bonsaihero.com/ledgrow.html
as he uses only Cree Xp-e Blue Led which actually peak at 475 I believe. 460-485nm.

Before calling b.s. on anyone I would suggest at least reading his/her post again and then look up the information first. Also, when you call b.s. on someone it usually helps to show how they are wrong with images, links, etc. otherwise you are just being a fool. But like I said, you can believe what you want to, although, I still do not get how I would gain anything here by posting false info, if anything I'm losing by simply giving away info that I've searched long and hard to receive.

You can email me the "correct" UVL 660nm SPD at [email protected] and I will compare it to the one I have.
I made the email just for you.

And for your information, the SPD graphs that all manufacturer's place on their packaging actually is a direct artistic representation of the computerized graph. I know what a computerized graph looks like and when you take a reading off a light source it doesn't come up with pretty colors inbetween the spikes and lines within the graph itself. Those are changed to look prettier to the consumer. They are just a line that goes up and down with various spikes and valleys with an X axis and Y axis. The X axis is the wavelength and the Y axis is the intensity of light source entering the fiber optic receptor.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> He was one of the few who got a 660 before they were for sale, play nice now. Maybe they changed something in production.


Damn, I posted up that info for you because you asked and another member asked a couple times already. I'm only responding to a rude comment made by another member calling out "false info" without backing themselves up. I'm not concerned with playing games, only trying to help you out. Believe what or who you want to, I could care less.


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

I called shenanigans and corrected you in a reply to that post. you can go to each manufacture site to see the spd's and you will see how different they truly are. How they appear to.your own eyes are irrelevant. We dont see the whole spectrum that the lights put out qnd plants absorb. Humans only see in the yellow and green area of the par spectrum. So quit saying how they look. That means nothing


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I called shenanigans and corrected you in a reply to that post. you can go to each manufacture site to see the spd's and you will see how different they truly are. How they appear to.your own eyes are irrelevant. We dont see the whole spectrum that the lights put out qnd plants absorb. Humans only see in the yellow and green area of the par spectrum. So quit saying how they look. That means nothing


I'm still waiting on the email from you. I've also taken the time to show you what I'm talking about since you don't seem to care to show me how I'm wrong. Because quite simply, you are wrong my friend. Here are the SPD "graphs" from each manufacturer and the lamps I compared to each other. These are the graphs, I'm not telling you how they look, they are here right in front of you for you and everyone else to see.

Giesemann Actinic +





ATI Blue Plus





UVL 454







Now for the pinks,
Zoomed Flora Sun





Sylvania Gro-Lux





ATI procolor






The reason I said the Giesemann Actinic Plus "appears darker blue than the ATI Blue Plus" is because it actually does in my fixture. I have had them side by side and this is the way it is. Where are you going with this and where is that email?


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

Well the actinic peaks at 460. The blue plus peaks at 420, the 454 peaks at 430. All different. Oh. I have the blue plus special. The grolux has a 30% higher 660 peak than the flora suns. Thats alot. The gro lux as a wider blue spike, thus more photons. Again Different. The pro color only has 25% 660 peak. All those bulbs are different.

I sent the email


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Well the actinic peaks at 460. The blue plus peaks at 420, the 454 peaks at 430. All different. Oh. I have the blue plus special. The grolux has a 30% higher 660 peak than the flora suns. Thats alot. The gro lux as a wider blue spike, thus more photons. Again Different. The pro color only has 25% 660 peak. All those bulbs are different.
> 
> I sent the email


The graph wasn't attached to the email.

I just said they are "pretty much the same" and are actually quite similar. Also, you can't compare intensity/Y-axis between graphs and especially manufacturers because the intensity is going to be much different depending on how close the light source is to the fiber optic sensor. The intensity is only relevant within a single SPD.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

also, directly from ATI's website,
*ATI Blue Plus - *_Basisröhre_

Die Blue Plus erzeugt ein intensives Blaulicht (max. bei 450 nm) bei maximaler PAR Leistung. Die fluoreszierenden Pigmente in den Korallen treten noch deutlicher hervor, und der optische Gesamteindruck wird wesentlich verbessert. Je nach Korallenbesatz empfehlen wir eine Beimischung im Verhältnis von 1:1 bis 1:2.

The Ati actually peaks at 450nm. The difference between 450nm and 460nm is nil. Either way, the point I was trying to convey in my original post was that you can't go wrong with any of the lights, so why not go for the cheaper of them all.

This is actually the SPD that is on the Giesemann Actinic Plus packaging that I have,






It looks like it has quite a bit more 420nm than 460nm so now it does make sense that it would appear darker. Not sure what that other Actinic Plus graph is from, weird.


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

i like that guisseman. check out the ati blue special. that's what i have. in my veg i have those and my fiji's. in flower i use the coral waves and flora suns for the blue. the coral wave peaks at 420 but has a very very wide peak from 380 to 480. lots of photons. blue has more photons than the rest. that improves co2 respiration on leaf surface and terpen production. in turn more oils and trichomes


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

the new uvl 660 measures intensity w/m2 like the wave points. so its intensity is actually lower than it appears on the graph i still have trouble converting 4E-0 w/m2 to a percentage


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

holy shit batman,,,,, I have 25 gallon pot of old soil ive been composting and cooking for my avocado tree im going to transplant into it, As I was turning it I found two full grown japanese beetles. i picked one up thinking it was heinekin bottle cap and saw its legs wigglin, it tripped me out.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

hyroot said:


> i like that guisseman. check out the ati blue special. that's what i have. in my veg i have those and my fiji's. in flower i use the coral waves and flora suns for the blue. the coral wave peaks at 420 but has a very very wide peak from 380 to 480. lots of photons. blue has more photons than the rest. that improves co2 respiration on leaf surface and terpen production. in turn more oils and trichomes


I'm using the blue specials in my fixture right now for veg as well. 2 UVL 660nm and 2 ATI blue special. The blue special is a 50/50 blue/white so it doesn't overcome the red in my fixture. I am aware that the deeper blue does help terpene production as well as UV does. That's why I add some towards the final weeks of flower. When I tried the actinic plus and uvl 660 together I was getting weird growth that I blame on the excessive deep blue. I replaced them with the blue special and no more funky twisted wavy growth. I plan on switching the blue specials out with the currentusa 460 when they come to see if anything changes and to see if the weird growth was due to the excessive 420nm or 460nm. My nutes and medium are always the same as well as temp/humidity so I've already ruled that out.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

BTW the graph that I posted and the one you emailed me is the same.

I've also recently been made aware that the Fiji Purple and ATI Purple Plus are the same. That's why the manufacturer doesn't post the SPD of the Fiji Purple. It's basically the same as the blue plus with the added red/orange. I believe Giesemann has their version of this as well.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

Just in case anyone wants to call b.s. on me, LOL
http://www.nano-reef.com/forums/lofiversion/index.php/t300755.html


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## hyroot (Jul 8, 2012)

thomas pohl of korrallen zucht said that the fiji has much more red than the purple plus. a bunch of us contacted korralen zucht and posted the replies in this thread a few hundred pages back.

on nano reef and reef geek. thats just opinion and hear say. i posted quotes from thomas on reef geek. no one really knows for sure.

both companies are owned by sylvania ..................


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 8, 2012)

^^^^^^see attached photo. They are pretty much the same. It's not possible that the Fiji has "much more red" in it because #1 you would see it. Plain and simple. #2 Let's say it did have this extra red that is somehow invisible to the eye, which last time I checked the visible spectrum is 400-700nm for the average people, the lamp would be making colors "pop", the Fiji's don't really do this, but I still use them in my veg fixture for added blue, combined with florasuns.

The reason the aquaristik people put the added red into aquariums is to make the colors "pop." As you may have noticed when you installed red lamps into your fixtures for the first time your skin seemed to have an orange glow and all the red colored sharpee caps in your room take a flourescent glow to them as well. There is no way the Fiji Purple lamp has any more red in it than the ATI lamp, and I am willing to bet $1,000,000 on it. Why deny it? Now that UVL has the 660nm lamps out it doesn't really matter anyway.

And do not throw away your florasuns. They have equal parts red and blue however and you yourself said blue light has more photonic energy than red light does. Therefore in order to balance out the color and give your growth a boost, a few 660nm would make a huge difference. Why not give it a try? I believe the correct proportions to red and blue for budding is somewhere around 8 to 1. If this theory is correct an 8-lamp fixture with 4 x florasun and 4 x uvl 660nm could make for great flowering potential. Just trying to throw some ideas out there.


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2012)

blue does have more photons but the majority of what chlorophyll absorbs is in the 660 to 700 range. then when green is present that helps chlorophyll absorb more photons. I stick to a r/b 70%/30% for flower and opposite for veg. try and experiment and see what happens. this whole thread has been about experimenting with spectrum

happy yard work


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## polyarcturus (Jul 9, 2012)

you guys are getting to deep with this color shit, and i believe this is where a lot of makers of LED fail, you cant just say one side of the spectrum is absorbed more than another since the measurement of the to is completely different if one has more photons than the other at the same strength that is the way it is meant to be, equal parts blue to red, this strain for red thru the blue light probably has a lot to do with the amount of red it can absorb and what it can do with it. just a little more simplistic view on it. im with fonz on this one 4 flora suns or 2 flora suns and 2 actinics of some sort with 4 uvl 660 would be the perfect spectrum for flowering


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2012)

Poly, hate to break it to you but its scientific fact. Read some horticulture books. I can say that because it is what it is..... All books say it too. Its a balancing act sort of speak. 

I swear this has been covered over 150 times in this thread. No wonder so many have left. I think me n Pet are the only og par t5ers left here.

Im def getting sick of the repetition.

The only thing left anyone should be saying is "these are my lights and these are my plants and these are my nutes." 

Everything that can be covered has been covered. All the info is there numerous times. Just read the dam thread!!!!!


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## PetFlora (Jul 9, 2012)

*I agree with Fonz on this: *And do not throw away your florasuns. They have equal parts red and blue however and you yourself said blue light has more photonic energy than red light does. Therefore in order to balance out the color and give your growth a boost, a few 660nm would make a huge difference. Why not give it a try? I believe the correct proportions to red and blue for budding is somewhere around 8 to 1. If this theory is correct an 8-lamp fixture with 4 x florasun and 4 x uvl 660nm could make for great flowering potential. Just trying to throw some ideas out there.Fonz 

The Florosuns provide a very nice full spectral balance, not just R/B. I use 2/8, but have no problem experimenting with 4/8. They actually cover a nice amount of 660, so I doubt 4/8 660s ($$$) is going to be much better than 1-2/8, but hey, I am curious to watch how that performs. Can't hurt


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 9, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> you guys are getting to deep with this color shit, and i believe this is where a lot of makers of LED fail, you cant just say one side of the spectrum is absorbed more than another since the measurement of the to is completely different if one has more photons than the other at the same strength that is the way it is meant to be, equal parts blue to red, this strain for red thru the blue light probably has a lot to do with the amount of red it can absorb and what it can do with it. just a little more simplistic view on it. im with fonz on this one 4 flora suns or 2 flora suns and 2 actinics of some sort with 4 uvl 660 would be the perfect spectrum for flowering


I agree with this to a point. The SPD charts and graphs get in the way quite a bit. You really can't take these graphs and put one over the other and expect THAT to be your light output. The graphs are only meant to do one thing and that is to give the customer an idea of the ratio of RGB the light puts out.

I still say the only way you can get an idea of how the color is going to be is to put the damn lights in your fixture and see how it performs. I am sure someone here is going to find new and better ways as new lights are developed and new people come to the thread. It's the natural course of progress. Just buys some lamps that make you feel happy, stick them in your fixture, put some plants under the light and see what happens. Then report back here. When someone hits at least the 1g/w threshold, let me know.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 9, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I think me n Pet are the only og par t5ers left here.
> 
> Im def getting sick of the repetition.


It's this type of attitude that will stop progress in it's tracks. Why leave zero room for improvement? Are you telling me that the "original OG" will never be improved on by someone else? I'm willing to bet that this thread has come a long way since page 1 so I don't see how someone reading 400 pages of repetition is going to do anything. If you are as proud as you say you are, why not share with new people? You never know when someone new will come along that will put your info to use and totally blow this shit to Neptune.


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## nuskool89 (Jul 9, 2012)

I posted a page back asking for 6 bulb advice and have no idea why lol I've got 8, might have been under the influence. Anyways considering the cost, I'm going to run 8 standard bulbs for veg (4 spectralux 6500k and 4 maxlume 5400k) then focus on flowering with aquarium light supplementation. This is what I want to run

2800k Maxlume
flora sun
uvl 660
2800k Maxlume
2800k Maxlume
uvl 660
flora sun
2800k Maxlume

Thing that sucks is I have to wait for uvl to release 2 footers


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## hyroot (Jul 9, 2012)

I was referring to th repetition of how light works and how plants absorb light. No more needs to be said on the subject. Personally posted the same thing to poly several times since he came in here. There has not been any new scientific break throughs in how light works.

So all that should be talked about is results from various bulb combos and what strains and bulbs differ, positive or negative results. 

When I said og. I did not mean strain. I meant orignal gangsta.... People that were here from the beginning.


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## Buzzo (Jul 9, 2012)

At $30 a pop for the UVL 660 or Red Sun, I can get much better value/performance out of a DIY LED using osram/CREE 660/630s. Throw a couple flora sun and/or coral wave T5s on the sides and happy flowering.


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## hammer21 (Jul 9, 2012)

This thread has gone on for a long time with a lot of grows completed with different results. So it comes down to this what 2 bulb combination would you run in a 8 bulb fixture for veg then the same for flower. Simple question with a simple answers please.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 9, 2012)

hyroot said:


> when i said og. I did not mean strain. I meant orignal gangsta.... People that were here from the beginning.


^^^^^^^^^^^lmfao


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 9, 2012)

Buzzo said:


> At $30 a pop for the UVL 660 or Red Sun, I can get much better value/performance out of a DIY LED using osram/CREE 660/630s. Throw a couple flora sun and/or coral wave T5s on the sides and happy flowering.


I've been wanting to set up a DIY LED fixture for awhile now. There's just so much that I don't know when it comes to thermal resistance, LED drivers, C/W for a heatsink, etc. I added a bunch of DIY LED to my shopping cart the other day and it totaled $300. Yeah, it's true they are going to last 10 times longer, but if you don't do it right the first time there goes my $300. I've read pages and pages of info on it, but when it comes down to putting it all together it gets a little iffy.


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## PetFlora (Jul 10, 2012)

Buzzo said:


> At $30 a pop for the UVL 660 or Red Sun, I can get much better value/performance out of a DIY LED using osram/CREE 660/630s. Throw a couple flora sun and/or coral wave T5s on the sides and happy flowering.


You are on the right track. There are things both do better than the other. OSRAM/CREE 660s would pay for themselves over time v replacing 660s every 6 months


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## PetFlora (Jul 10, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I've been wanting to set up a DIY LED fixture for awhile now. There's just so much that I don't know when it comes to thermal resistance, LED drivers, C/W for a heatsink, etc. I added a bunch of DIY LED to my shopping cart the other day and it totaled $300. Yeah, it's true they are going to last 10 times longer, but if you don't do it right the first time there goes my $300. I've read pages and pages of info on it, but when it comes down to putting it all together it gets a little iffy.


Check out www.rapidled.com They have new kit coming out, OR, you can buy individual parts (including predrilled heat sinks). I prefer multiple longer narrow heat sinks


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## polyarcturus (Jul 10, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I was referring to th repetition of how light works and how plants absorb light. No more needs to be said on the subject. Personally posted the same thing to poly several times since he came in here.


and ive heard you, but all these tests you speak of, like its a fact set in stone. you need to take in account the variables FIRST off being the fact these tests where not done with cannabis is a great place to start. all im getting at is use the plant as your benchmark and not the scientific research papers.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 10, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Check out www.rapidled.com They have new kit coming out, OR, you can buy individual parts (including predrilled heat sinks). I prefer multiple longer narrow heat sinks


There are these new LEDs that have 4 x 3w LEDs already soldered onto a MCPCB board in a circle. That means they are 12w each. Probably are going to get a little hotter than having only 1 x 3w'er on a star board but it saves a lot of money and time. The only thing is I don't know how to size up a heat sink and fan to them. It's going to be $300 for a 150w setup, plus $100 for a driver or around there. 156 V because they are 3v each forward current. So 156v and 156w driven at 700mA. I guess this isn't the right thread to find out where to get the driver, but that's where I'm at anyway. I can't justify hitting the buy now button when I still don't know how to power the lights lol.

Whats the new kit at rapidled? I've seen all the websites that offer them already, but they don't have what I'm after.


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## Buzzo (Jul 10, 2012)

Fonz, Pet is referring to the new solderless kits from RapidLED. They should be released within the next couple weeks. I think if you're interested in a DIY panel, this would be the path of least resistance - no soldering, no mess, just plug and play. All you have to do is mount the stars to the heatsink with thermal adhesive and connect the LEDs to the terminal connectors. I've looked at the instructions and it looks really easy, too easy. If you opt for the predrilled sink, you can just use some arctic silver and screw the stars down. Also, these kits are mostly for reefers and fish tanks, meaning they only include royal blue/white in the kits. I've e-mailed them in the past about this and they told me a custom color order (to include red/far reds) wouldn't be a problem. 

Pet, I prefer the narrow/longer sinks as well. Excellent alternative to the expensive $30 red bulbs.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 10, 2012)

Buzzo said:


> Fonz, Pet is referring to the new solderless kits from RapidLED. They should be released within the next couple weeks. I think if you're interested in a DIY panel, this would be the path of least resistance - no soldering, no mess, just plug and play. All you have to do is mount the stars to the heatsink with thermal adhesive and connect the LEDs to the terminal connectors. I've looked at the instructions and it looks really easy, too easy. If you opt for the predrilled sink, you can just use some arctic silver and screw the stars down. Also, these kits are mostly for reefers and fish tanks, meaning they only include royal blue/white in the kits. I've e-mailed them in the past about this and they told me a custom color order (to include red/far reds) wouldn't be a problem.
> 
> Pet, I prefer the narrow/longer sinks as well. Excellent alternative to the expensive $30 red bulbs.


Oh ok, I see what you're talking about now. If you guys are looking for a 660nm alternative and not wanting to do the mess around there is always the kessil h150 reds at $170 a piece. 32w with penetrative power. I'm running 4 in a 2x2 ft cabinet along side a mh with great results. I've used blue T5's along side them and although it works, the reds are a lot more penetrative and you end up getting more red than blue to the bottom inside leaves. Not sure if it matters though. I'm not to sure about the Kessils though as I've had a couple of them stop working already. At least they have a warranty. I sometimes wish I would have just put the money towards a DIY setup and said f' it to all the problems and expenses I've had up to this point.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 10, 2012)

Ok you guys. I received my new blue lamps and I am quite happy at the findings. 
Here is a photo of 3 lamps. 1 Hamilton 460 Royal Blue Actinic, 1 Giesemann Actinic Plus, and 1 TrueLumen 460 Actinic.

The SPD I received from CurrentUSA is correct. The lamp contains only 460nm phosphor in it and the photo I have uploaded shows how much more lighter blue it is than the other 2 lamps. The Hamilton 460 Royal has additional 440/420nm phosphor in it and it's a tad darker blue than the Truelumen 460 actinic. The Giesmann Actinic Plus has even more of the 420, 440 phosphor less of the 460 and is the darkest of the 3 lamps. I am very pleased with the Truelumen 460 Actinic and will be running 2 of them along with 2 UVL 660nm to test out my 460nm hypothesis.

In my other fixture I will run the Hamilton 460 to see if the additional lower wavelength 440/420 blue has any kind of benefit or if the plants prefer the 460nm light better. I'm already seeing the plants reach towards the 460 Truelumen so I doubt it will even be a contest.

Here is the photo of the 3 lamps side by side. From left to right, Hamilton 460, Giesemann actinic +, Truelumen 460

Here are the SPD's in the same order for each lamp,


The hamilton SPD is quite small but you can see the added 440/420 to the left of the 460 peak where as the Truelumen is just one big 460 peak.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 11, 2012)

I would say this thread is a little in the dark. No offense. It's amazing what a little open minded googling can do. This link may open your mind up to the idea I've been going after a bit. Follow Weezard's posts and respond please. It doesn't really sound like any other wavelengths are necessary except for 460 and 660. I'm not totally set on this idea yet as I still have my own experimenting to do, but Weezard has a few photos that are turning me into more of a believer now. 

[url]http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/198437-need-help-wavelength-spectrum-led.html
[/URL]

http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/167881-calling-out-weezard-led-advice.html


----------



## Fonzarelli (Jul 11, 2012)

http://www.growlight.cn/grow/High-power20LEDs_for_plant_cultivation_study.pdf

check this out


----------



## kpmarine (Jul 11, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> http://www.growlight.cn/grow/High-power20LEDs_for_plant_cultivation_study.pdf
> 
> check this out


This study badly needs at least one thing: Temps throughout the grow. Over 70F, radishes do not fatten up. I wonder of they accounted for that, as I see no mention of it. If nothing else, this makes the study somewhat incomplete. There's also a lack of a comparison against trying to hit the whole PAR range proportionately. I haven't read through the 12 page thread you linked yet. It's a bit much to hunt out the info you're referring to, no offense. I'll try to get to it, but life has a way of distracting me.


----------



## kpmarine (Jul 11, 2012)

hyroot said:


> That is no the same spd that jeff from uvl sent me. Ive tried to.get spd from current and they refused to give one. They just referred a link to their faq where they state what nm it peaks at.
> 
> I do not believe those are real spd's.


I think something changed after you got it then. Jeff sent me the SPD for the 660 bulbs, and they match fonz's SPD. Could you throw yours up? They're on the market now. Plus, this bears some scrutiny; your results may differ from ours if the outputs vary. That sounds like UVL may be pulling a fast one.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 11, 2012)

This is getting really interesting. I read through all 20 pages and it looks like some plants actually require green light in larger amounts. Lettuce being one of them. According to a few of the people over at the Cannabis boards, even some strains of Cannabis require green light. Some strains just do not do well under red/blue leds. I've been running into that same kind of issue. My Lemon Skunk, Lavender and Bubblegum seem to love the red/blue T5 lighting I'm giving them, but my Sour Diesel and Blueberry starts getting twisted leaves unless I use regular 6500k daylight lamps along with the reds and blues. Before, I thought this was due to having to deep of blue wavelength and not enough 460nm, but the more I play around and read I'm starting to think that some Cannabis strains actually need the green and other wavelengths. Crazy. It just doesn't add up. It just might not be possible to create an "all around" universal spectrum for all plants.


----------



## PetFlora (Jul 11, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I would say this thread is a little in the dark. No offense. It's amazing what a little open minded googling can do. This link may open your mind up to the idea I've been going after a bit. Follow Weezard's posts and respond please. It doesn't really sound like any other wavelengths are necessary except for 460 and 660. I'm not totally set on this idea yet as I still have my own experimenting to do, but Weezard has a few photos that are turning me into more of a believer now.
> 
> http://boards.cannabis.com/indoor-lighting/198437-need-help-wavelength-spectrum-led.html
> 
> ...



Weez goes way back with leds, so I tend to believe what he thinks, BUT, I think you still want ~ 20% 5-600

I'm seeing this thread getting jacked toward LEDs and that's not right. Fonz why not start a new LED thread based on WEEZES ideas? FYI I am having trouble finding his pics beyond the first one that you provided the link for


----------



## Fonzarelli (Jul 11, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Weez goes way back with leds, so I tend to believe what he thinks, BUT, I think you still want ~ 20% 5-600


I'm just now starting to understand half of the posts you have made about 630nm and 730nm and all that crazy shit. It's all coming together. I didn't realize you were a genius. 

This has definitely put a roadblock in my movement towards a solid idea. It's as if all these wavelengths exist in a higher plane of existence and the plants are responding to the actual "light mixtures" as opposed to the separate wavelengths. I really wanted to come up with a way to illuminate my garden for all plants, not just cannabis and have them all be happy under one type of light mixture. Now it seems like even some strains of Cannabis prefer different types of light. WTF?

So far, out of all the experiments I've done, I've seen crazy things happen with 2 types of light mixtures. Either straight white/red mixture of Florasuns and 6500K lamps which cause excessive stretching and weak thin stems, but also extreme growth speeds and leaf diameter, OR, 

straight red/blue mixture of 460 and 630/660 UVLs. All my plants are liking the red/blue mixture better EXCEPT for the Sour D and Blueberry. I don't fucking get it! Can't they all just get along and be happy? And then you have NIR. All I can say is I'm going to stick to the Red/Blue I'm running right now and will post the progression here. So far, really fucking great. I really don't think there is a sure-fire way of using the "books" to come up with the perfect spectrum. It's all trial and error. With that being said, for whoever is lurking here, try your own light mixtures and ideas and post them here. Try not to follow what everyone else is doing to the T because like I said, it's all a big damn guessing game right now. Yeah sure, what people have already posted in this thread 100 pages ago IS working just fine, but so do 6500k lamps, MH, HPS, and CFLs! Keep the ideas flowing people! I won't except mediocrity as the answer anymore.


----------



## canadian1969 (Jul 11, 2012)

I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to optimize plant growth and potency through tailoring your spectral outputs for your plants, I think it's reasonable to assume some strains will perform better than others under certain lighting conditions. If you are looking for a single ubiquitous lighting solution you are defeating the whole point of this thread. No?


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## PetFlora (Jul 11, 2012)

*Fonz:* SHIT! I had a long ass answer for you and it got deleted when I tried to figure out how to make an actual degree sign. MrFr.

No genius, but an ardent student of spectrums. It took me a long time looking at PAR charts to realize what most mfgs IMHO misinterpret. They see R/B as being so dominant that they ASSume the 5-600 range isn't necessary. I see it as a catalyst. If you don't add a little baking powder to pancake mix they won't rise. You can eat them, but they are more like pita bread or soft tacos

I think it is simple to make led rails with a toggle to add a few more R/B as required by the strain. Hans panel seems ripe for this


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 11, 2012)

canadian1969 said:


> I thought the whole purpose of this thread was to optimize plant growth and potency through tailoring your spectral outputs for your plants, I think it's reasonable to assume some strains will perform better than others under certain lighting conditions. If you are looking for a single ubiquitous lighting solution you are defeating the whole point of this thread. No?


I don't know anymore. After staying up for 24 hours straight wandering down the golden path of what's right, then finding out the path splits off into 2 more directions, then 2 more, then 2 more..........smoke started to pour out of my ears and I forgot where I was going in the first place.


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## novice11 (Jul 11, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Weez goes way back with leds, so I tend to believe what he thinks, BUT, I think you still want ~ 20% 5-600
> 
> I'm seeing this thread getting jacked toward LEDs and that's not right. Fonz why not start a new LED thread based on WEEZES ideas? FYI I am having trouble finding his pics beyond the first one that you provided the link for


Agreed. I have no interest in LEDs, if I did I would go to that forum. This was suppose to be about T5 lighting, but apparently even the (MIA) pr0fesseur has given it up.


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## hyroot (Jul 11, 2012)

Pro pops in once in a while. I think he is just a lurker now. I got a few likes from him a few days ago.

Its funny this thread already went through the led phase before we knew about the flora suns. We all were looking at 660 supplementing with kessils or advanced led par bulbs. Then Pro popped in with new bulbs he was having made. Then that changed the direction back to flouros. Those bulbs were never made I guess.....

Its about imrproving grows with better spectrum and less watts. Led is sort of the cool cousin that you are not allowed to hang out with. I know its a cheezy metaphor. Hid is the enemy....... Incorperating t5 with led, why not if it works and improves grows....? Just do not leave the flouros behind. Because of us, we got uvl to make the 660............ Dun dun dunnnnn

Enough of my ramblings.

Happy gardening people


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## polyarcturus (Jul 11, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Pro pops in once in a while. I think he is just a lurker now. I got a few likes from him a few days ago.
> 
> Its funny this thread already went through the led phase before we knew about the flora suns. We all were looking at 660 supplementing with kessils or advanced led par bulbs. Then Pro popped in with new bulbs he was having made. Then that changed the direction back to flouros. Those bulbs were never made I guess.....
> 
> ...



finally a reall opinion from you hyroot, that is a first.


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## hyroot (Jul 11, 2012)

waaa waaa waaaaaaaaa


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## polyarcturus (Jul 11, 2012)

it was a compliment back to normal i see


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## hyroot (Jul 11, 2012)

Ohhhh I thought you were being sarcastic..


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## polyarcturus (Jul 11, 2012)

its cool my attitude comes off like that and tend to be really sarcastic in life too.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 11, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Agreed. I have no interest in LEDs, if I did I would go to that forum. This was suppose to be about T5 lighting, but apparently even the (MIA) pr0fesseur has given it up.


We are using T5's. Light is light, and with all the wavelength/spectrum information that people are doling out in the LED industry it's a nice resource to use when figuring out a T5 setup. At least try to read a few pages before making annoying judgements lol. The name of the thread does have the word LED in it so I can't imagine discussing or comparing LEDs to T5s would against any rules. I guess I really don't get what your point is though.


----------



## Fonzarelli (Jul 11, 2012)

AMEN to PF for making the lamp development at UVL happen. That type of shit doesn't happen very often ya know. I haven't even seen anyone thank PF for doing it. So THANK YOU PF!

I'm going to give your theory a try PF. I popped in new arrangement of T5's in another fixture. I think I have about 6 individual light tests going on with constant environmental variables at each station. The new fixture has from left to right, 1 UVL 75/25 for the violet/indigo/green/orange, 1 UVL 660, 1 TrueLumen 460, 1 UVL Red Sun. Yeah you heard me, I'm giving the Red Suns another chance. I even set up the light fixture with the red/blue counterparts of Chlorophyll A and B right next to each other so booooyaaaa, it's gonna work even betta now! hahaha

It's really putting out a nice magenta/pink/orange color that "looks" like it's going to work well.

In case a few of you are confused, I am running 4 lamp fixtures instead of 8 or 10 or 16 lamp fixtures and am trying to get better results by using either 4 different lamps at a 1:1:1:1 ratio or 2 different lamps at a 2:2 ratio. I think it's possible by fine tuning the spectrum as much as possible. I'm trying really hard to do without any white triband, but I do have a couple fixtures with 1 partial white lamp(UVL 75/25 or Aquablue special for example).


----------



## PetFlora (Jul 12, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Pro pops in once in a while. I think he is just a lurker now. I got a few likes from him a few days ago.
> 
> Its funny this thread already went through the led phase before we knew about the flora suns. We all were looking at 660 supplementing with kessils or advanced led par bulbs. Then Pro popped in with new bulbs he was having made. Then that changed the direction back to flouros. Those bulbs were never made I guess.....
> 
> ...



May be time for a new thread *T5 + LEDs The Best of Both Worlds

*I was not involved in lighting a fire under UVL to make the 660. I simply inquired and found they were almost ready to introduce it


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## PetFlora (Jul 12, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> We are using T5's. Light is light, and with all the wavelength/spectrum information that people are doling out in the LED industry it's a nice resource to use when figuring out a T5 setup. At least try to read a few pages before making annoying judgements lol. The name of the thread does have the word LED in it so I can't imagine discussing or comparing LEDs to T5s would against any rules. I guess I really don't get what your point is though.


His UN says it all (no offense Novice). You should know by now (based on the comment you made about finally beginning to understand what I have been saying) that the T5 info alone can be overwhelming. I have learned a lot from this thread, too. Thankfully, I never bought the Fiji, not that it's a bad light, but it costs as much as a 660


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## PetFlora (Jul 12, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> AMEN to PF for making the lamp development at UVL happen. That type of shit doesn't happen very often ya know. I haven't even seen anyone thank PF for doing it. So THANK YOU PF!
> 
> I'm going to give your theory a try PF. I popped in new arrangement of T5's in another fixture. I think I have about 6 individual light tests going on with constant environmental variables at each station. The new fixture has from left to right, 1 UVL 75/25 for the violet/indigo/green/orange, 1 UVL 660, 1 TrueLumen 460, 1 UVL Red Sun. Yeah you heard me, I'm giving the Red Suns another chance. I even set up the light fixture with the red/blue counterparts of Chlorophyll A and B right next to each other so booooyaaaa, it's gonna work even betta now! hahaha
> 
> ...


The only thing I would change is not to incorporate the 660s until mid-flower. Not because it isn't a good idea, but I am told they don't last long, and at $30 a pop, well.... I just shot Jeff an email to confirm. Keep in mind the Florosun has a decent 660 band + 500-600: I use 2 in both V&B. New pics tomorrow. All I can say coming dow the wire on blending aquarium bulbs is that I have never had such tight PHAT nuggz

I would like to see you test with 4 of those. Depending on how the plants look at mid-flower, then replace 1/4 with a 660

I have 3 Red Suns under the hood. The new ones are fine


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## PetFlora (Jul 12, 2012)

Just heard back from UVL: 

We are seeing useful life at 4500hrs before 25% decline in phosphor drop. At 10 hrs daily = 450 days, recommend replacing yearly.


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## hyroot (Jul 12, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Just heard back from UVL:
> 
> We are seeing useful life at 4500hrs before 25% decline in phosphor drop. At 10 hrs daily = 450 days, recommend replacing yearly.


Are they running the bulbs non stop or 20 hours a day or what? They just started making the bulbs less than 6 months ago. I have not even been doing par t5 for a year yet.


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## PSUAGRO. (Jul 12, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Are they running the bulbs non stop or 20 hours a day or what? They just started making the bulbs less than 6 months ago. I have not even been doing par t5 for a year yet.


good question.......


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 13, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Are they running the bulbs non stop or 20 hours a day or what? They just started making the bulbs less than 6 months ago. I have not even been doing par t5 for a year yet.


UVL started developing these 660nm lamps along side an overseas lamp manufacturer (Hungary I believe?) long before this thread even started supposedly. I think it's a pretty amazing coincidence that when PF contacted UVL they already knew about the 660nm potential. Makes you think twice about collective conscience doesn't it? LOL, anyway PF said that they were running the lamps 10 hours a day in his post so that's most likely what they've been doing. Unless of course you think they are full of shit. I highly doubt it. These lamps are top of the line and work extremely well. But please do not buy them so there are more for me!


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## polyarcturus (Jul 13, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Are they running the bulbs non stop or 20 hours a day or what? They just started making the bulbs less than 6 months ago. I have not even been doing par t5 for a year yet.


well they could have, HID bulbs are tested 24/7 in non vented rooms


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## PetFlora (Jul 13, 2012)

Wow. It's amazing how simple math can be so confusing. UVL says *We are seeing useful life at 4500hrs before 25% decline in phosphor drop. PERIOD


Take 4500 useful hours multiply ** by 25%** decline in phosphors** = 3375 hours at 100%.  *This means if you are using them _only for flower_ @ 10 hrs/day you will get *337.5 *days of 100% phosphor before they decline. This is why UVL says they  *recommend replacing yearly.*

If you are running them in both veg and flower OBVIOUSLY the useful life will be drastically reduced. I have it on excellent authority (not UVL) that the Red Life/Sun (630) will provide ~95% of what the plant needs, SO, why waste money on 660s (until mid-flower). Follow this logic and you will double the useful life of UVL 660s

Any questions? 

Pop over to my journal, I posted 4 new pics


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## Tebin (Jul 13, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> onor


The H in HONOR is not silent bro,sorry but that's just a fact of the English language.

*

UVL Red sun 630nm
UVL 454nm
UVL Super Actinic peaks at 420nm
ATI Pro Color 660nm
KorallenZucht peaks at 630 and 440nm​


*


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## novice11 (Jul 13, 2012)

I'm not trying to start a flame war. Actually the title is "LEDs *WITHOUT* LEDS....". Also I have been here for some time and have read every page.

Anyway, my 660s just arrived and I plugged them in, replacing 2 failing Red Suns and one of the Purples. Been flowering 4 weeks so the timing should be perfect. So - 3 660s, 2 Purples, 1 Red Sun, 1 Coral Wave and 1 454.

Opinions - should I replace one if the remaining Purples with another 660?


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## polyarcturus (Jul 13, 2012)

listen dude all he was implying was the spectrum covered not, not using leds(double negative but you get the point) 

yeah i would just because you dont really need that much low spectrum(420nm)


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 14, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Wow. It's amazing how simple math can be so confusing. UVL says *We are seeing useful life at 4500hrs before 25% decline in phosphor drop. PERIOD
> 
> 
> Take 4500 useful hours multiply ** by 25%** decline in phosphors** = 3375 hours at 100%.  *This means if you are using them _only for flower_ @ 10 hrs/day you will get *337.5 *days of 100% phosphor before they decline. This is why UVL says they  *recommend replacing yearly.*
> ...


Right on, this is fucking genius. 

The 660nm are more for budding, BUT will help keep your plants shorter in veg BELIEVE IT OR NOT!!!!!!!!!!!! So keep a couple(or 1) in your veg fixture and the deep red will help keep your plants shorter AND stockier as well.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> listen dude all he was implying was the spectrum covered not, not using leds(double negative but you get the point)


It's like they just can't comprehend simple patterns of thought. LOL

Oh wait, I don't see the word "computer" in the forum title, so does that mean it's against the rules to post messages with a computer now? I don't see the word "electricity" in the title, so does that mean if you power your T5's with electricity you are doing the thread in the butt as well? LOL, just had to.


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## polyarcturus (Jul 14, 2012)

my questionis how you get to 333 posts with one rep bar lol if i could fonz id rep you for just making me laugh guess i owe you a rep rain check.


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## novice11 (Jul 14, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> my questionis how you get to 333 posts with one rep bar lol if i could fonz id rep you for just making me laugh guess i owe you a rep rain check.


Because I ask questions instead of giving answers when I don't know them.

Gee, I said straight out I wasn't looking to start a flame war. I suppose some people just can't resist. Fragile egos and all that, I suppose.


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## novice11 (Jul 14, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> It's like they just can't comprehend simple patterns of thought. LOL
> 
> Oh wait, I don't see the word "computer" in the forum title, so does that mean it's against the rules to post messages with a computer now? I don't see the word "electricity" in the title, so does that mean if you power your T5's with electricity you are doing the thread in the butt as well? LOL, just had to.


More idiocy. Not Helpful.


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## KushoNator (Jul 14, 2012)

Did enjoy reading post . Only one question the density of buds how is it compared to HPS ?


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## hyroot (Jul 14, 2012)

They're grrreat. With the infrared 760 nm from the coral waves and the 660nm deep red from flora suns or uvl, rock hard buds every time. Denser than what I would get from my 1000w hortilux. Im pretty sure that its mostly due to the large amount of IR. Google; texas a&m , how infrared light affects plants. Interesting study. Good read too.


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## polyarcturus (Jul 14, 2012)

yeah even when i grew with t12 i was getting great bud density i think you talking about 150hps or leds by themselves or something.


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## PetFlora (Jul 15, 2012)

novice11 said:


> I'm not trying to start a flame war. Actually the title is "LEDs *WITHOUT* LEDS....". Also I have been here for some time and have read every page.
> 
> Anyway, my 660s just arrived and I plugged them in, replacing 2 failing Red Suns and one of the Purples. Been flowering 4 weeks so the timing should be perfect. So - 3 660s, 2 Purples, 1 Red Sun, 1 Coral Wave and 1 454.
> 
> Opinions - should I replace one if the remaining Purples with another 660?


IMO you have way more 660 than you need. Replace 1-2 with ZooMed Florosun


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## novice11 (Jul 15, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> IMO you have way more 660 than you need. Replace 1-2 with ZooMed Florosun


Hmmm....one person says I don't need all that 420nm in bloom and to add 660nm but you say I don't need as much 660nm and to add some 420nm. I guess there is no consensus?


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 15, 2012)

novice11 said:


> More idiocy. Not Helpful.


 Strange way of asking for help. Diss the people you are asking the help from. Lol, kids these days.



novice11 said:


> Hmmm....one person says I don't need all that 420nm in bloom and to add 660nm but you say I don't need as much 660nm and to add some 420nm. I guess there is no consensus?


 Why don't you just try both ways? And which ever works best is probably the one you want to go with


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 15, 2012)

Wanted to update everyone. 1 week of growth in soil and coco. Fixture from left to right is UVL 660nm, TrueLumen 460nm, UVL 660nm, UVL 75/25(for violet),
Fixture,





Orange Diesel,





Sour Diesel,





Blueberry,





Lemon Skunk,





Lavender,






I'm really liking how compact they are growing.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 15, 2012)

Get your UVL Red Sun and others for $15 each or less here,
http://www.aquariumlighting.com/retail/product_info.php?manufacturers_id=210&products_id=4509


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## ValleGrown (Jul 15, 2012)

Guys ... I'm back.


What did I miss ? Have we come across a manufacturer that will customize bulbs??

Im seeing 760nm bulbs now??


Fonz- plants look beautiful mate. Keep it up


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## polyarcturus (Jul 15, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Hmmm....one person says I don't need all that 420nm in bloom and to add 660nm but you say I don't need as much 660nm and to add some 420nm. I guess there is no consensus?


 flora sun peaks at 420 460 and 630 nm its a great bulb and i would have told you to buy that one if you where willing to buy a bulbs but you made it seem as if you had the 660 on haand so i simply told you to use what you had. florasun has a more balanced spectrum and you dont need as much 660nm as you are trying to add. but either way is fine


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## novice11 (Jul 15, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Strange way of asking for help. Diss the people you are asking the help from. Lol, kids these days.


Perhaps you should look back and see where you say I "can't comprehend simple patterns of thought". That doesn't seem helpful to me. And I do not dis unless dissed. 

Also - I'm no kid, I'm nearly 60. 

I will continue to ask for help when needed. I appreciate all helpful answers. But if you need an ego boost, please look elsewhere. Amazing though how people like to talk tough when there is no possibility of reprisal. How brave!!!


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## novice11 (Jul 15, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> flora sun peaks at 420 460 and 630 nm its a great bulb and i would have told you to buy that one if you where willing to buy a bulbs but you made it seem as if you had the 660 on haand so i simply told you to use what you had. florasun has a more balanced spectrum and you dont need as much 660nm as you are trying to add. but either way is fine


Sorry I keep forgetting this is a more experimental situation. I did have the 660 on hand. So maybe I have too much red now but its 3 weeks till harvest, I'm thinking they might like it, we'll see.

I appreciate the flora sun tip - when my Purples start to go south they will be replaced with the Flora Suns. Certainly more $$ friendly than the KZ Purples.


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## hyroot (Jul 15, 2012)

The zoo med flora suns have more 660nm band than any other part of the spectrum. The guiesseman flora suns have more 630nm than any other part of the spectrum.


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## polyarcturus (Jul 15, 2012)

hyroot said:


> The zoo med flora suns have more 660nm band than any other part of the spectrum. The guiesseman flora suns have more 630nm than any other part of the spectrum.


 your right smoking out my ears. do'h


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 15, 2012)

You were right, my Red Sun fixture is rocking the shit right now! In my 8 lamp fixture I got 4 Red Sun, 2 Blue Plus for the 460nm, and 2 Flora Sun for VEG and it is fucking growing amazing! Holy fucking shit, this is so cool! This combo is a keeper as it is the best I've seen so far. The leaves are all standing and reaching completely vertical. Putting an inch of growth a day in my F and D table! Glad I gave it a try! Thank you for the suggestions. So I will be able to do a comparison between the UVL 660 and the Red Suns as I have equal proportions in both fixtures. 4 UVL 660nm, 2 Blue Plus, 2 Flora Suns in one and 4 Red Suns, 2 Blue Plus, 2 Flora Suns in the other. Game on time!

I really think this is the perfect amount of red to blue for a veg setup. It's pretty much between 2:1 and 3:1 red to blue.

Peace


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 16, 2012)

https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/545857-advanced-lighting-spectrums-t5-floro.html#post7719099


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## novice11 (Jul 16, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> You were right, my Red Sun fixture is rocking the shit right now! In my 8 lamp fixture I got 4 Red Sun, 2 Blue Plus for the 460nm, and 2 Flora Sun for VEG and it is fucking growing amazing! Holy fucking shit, this is so cool! This combo is a keeper as it is the best I've seen so far. The leaves are all standing and reaching completely vertical. Putting an inch of growth a day in my F and D table! Glad I gave it a try! Thank you for the suggestions. So I will be able to do a comparison between the UVL 660 and the Red Suns as I have equal proportions in both fixtures. 4 UVL 660nm, 2 Blue Plus, 2 Flora Suns in one and 4 Red Suns, 2 Blue Plus, 2 Flora Suns in the other. Game on time!
> 
> I really think this is the perfect amount of red to blue for a veg setup. It's pretty much between 2:1 and 3:1 red to blue.
> 
> Peace


Questions:

(1) Which Flora Suns - Zoo Med or Guiesseman ?

(2) What will you go to for Bloom?

Thanks.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 16, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Questions:
> 
> (1) Which Flora Suns - Zoo Med or Guiesseman ?
> 
> ...


Zoomed are the only Florasuns. You are thinking of aquaflora or something from giesemann.

I use a 5:1 red/blue ratio for bloom. Doesn't matter what brand lamp they are.


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## novice11 (Jul 17, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Zoomed are the only Florasuns. You are thinking of aquaflora or something from giesemann.
> 
> I use a 5:1 red/blue ratio for bloom. Doesn't matter what brand lamp they are.


Thanks! Appreciated.


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## novice11 (Jul 17, 2012)

Bad news today - one of the 4 660's is dead after 4 days. Not dim - dead. Contacted UVL, awaiting response.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 20, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Bad news today - one of the 4 660's is dead after 4 days. Not dim - dead. Contacted UVL, awaiting response.


Must be Karma, LOL J/K

This happens with any T5 brand. If the glue/end caps isn't seated quite right on the end caps, the gas can leak out quickly. I just had to replace one of my TrueLumen lamps I just bought after firing it up once. 

Don't sweat it, they will send you a replacement. It happens with T5's more than T12's or T8's because of the size factor I am guessing.

It won't cost you a cent extra, just don't get irate.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 20, 2012)

I believe the reason that some lamp manufacturers choose NOT to put 660nm in their lamps is because any extra 660nm can speed up algae growth. This is due to the high photosynthetic response that 660nm causes to plants.

630nm has less of a photosynthetic response, so they put it in the lamps to boost the "florescence" of the corals without increasing algae growth. 

This is the reason I believe the ProColors were taken off the market. That and people said they washed out the appearance of their corals. 

Overall, the 630nm wavelength is going to make the colors "pop" more in your aquarium because it is a visually "brighter" red light source.

660nm is going to increase growth rate faster than 630nm, I just haven't figured out how much faster yet. I would estimate it to be around 3 or 4 times faster growth with the 660nm over the 630nm.

It really is best to have both wavelengths in your spectrum in a 1:1 to 1:3 ratio of 630nm/660nm.


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## kpmarine (Jul 20, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I believe the reason that some lamp manufacturers choose NOT to put 660nm in their lamps is because any extra 660nm can speed up algae growth. This is due to the high photosynthetic response that 660nm causes to plants.
> 
> 630nm has less of a photosynthetic response, so they put it in the lamps to boost the "florescence" of the corals without increasing algae growth.
> 
> ...


Don't set your hopes too high. 300-400% is a huge difference. Blue heavy in veg was turning 4" clones into plants bigger than 5gal buckets in 15 days. If you can triple to quadruple that, I'd be genuinely shocked. Honestly though, it doesn't take particularly awesome light to veg. Save your money and expensive bulb life there. Flowering is where you really see the payout. By all means, feel free to experiment though; that's just my thoughts on it.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Honestly though, it doesn't take particularly awesome light to veg. Save your money and expensive bulb life there. Flowering is where you really see the payout.


very true.........


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## novice11 (Jul 20, 2012)

Jeff @ UVL wrote back. He is sending a replacement. He said exactly what Mr. Fonzarelli said - bad end caps can let oxygen in, toasting the lamp. I just repped it with a Red Sun. Still have 3 660s in there.


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## PetFlora (Jul 21, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> very true.........



I use 2 Quantum 6500s to veg/clone or 1 Q 6500 + 1 ATI Spec Blue Actinc (cause I own it)


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## nofogdj (Jul 21, 2012)

[FONT=&amp]I tried to search first to see if my questions were already answered in this thread but I could not find them. If they are answered somewhere in here sorry I over looked them.
[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]I'm going to be using two 16 bulb fixtures for lighting two grow rooms. one will be for veging, clones, and mother plants the other will be for flowering. What bulbs should I have in a 16 bulb fixture for both of these rooms?
[/FONT]

[FONT=&amp]I also would like to eventually use co2 in at least my flowering room. From what I understand about co2 use is that Ideally you want to get the room about 90-95[/FONT][FONT=&amp]F, 1,500 ppm CO2, 45-50% relative humidity, 7,500-10,000 lumens/square foot of light. Will a 16 bulb fixture produce enough lumens for my plants to be able to make full use of the co2? My flower room will be 4ft x 4ft at most.[/FONT]


[FONT=&amp]I think the requirement of 7,500-10,000 lumens/square foot of light was calculated using a hps/mh light. Since hps/mh produce lumens from many unused wavelengths would the lumens required per square foot of light be less for the t5 lights that we use since they are only producing lumens on the wavelengths that are used for plant growth?[/FONT][FONT=&amp] In other words do I still need 7,500+ lumens/square foot of light if I'm using this method of t5 lighting and I also want to get the most out of co2? [/FONT]

*Edit*

I just realized lumen is a unit of measure for visible light. So, how would I go about figuring out if I have enough light to use co2 if I cant use lumens to measure it?


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 21, 2012)

nofogdj said:


> [FONT=&amp]I tried to search first to see if my questions were already answered in this thread but I could not find them. If they are answered somewhere in here sorry I over looked them.
> [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&amp]I'm going to be using two 16 bulb fixtures for lighting two grow rooms. one will be for veging, clones, and mother plants the other will be for flowering. What bulbs should I have in a 16 bulb fixture for both of these rooms?
> ...


If you are planning on flowering with CO2, how do you plan on raising temps with T5 HO lamps? Are you going to use a space heater and a dehumidifier to do the job?

Because if so, you pretty much defeated the purpose of T5 HO lamps in that all the electricity it will take to dehumidify the grow space, AND THEN heat up the air that the dehumidifier just got done cooling down will be quite a bit more than if you were to just use a HPS or MH which will heat and dehumidify your grow space for you.

The nice thing about HPS and MH and CO2 is that they work symbiotically together. 

It's the same thing with LEDs. They don't heat up your canopy enough to induce proper respiratory action which prevents the plants from drawing up nutes and therefore stops growth. Ya pretty much gotta HEAT your grow room if you use LEDs or T5's with CO2. 

Now your other option a CO2 generator because those burn propane or natural gas to produce your CO2, therefore you might be able to somehow use the waste heat from that to warm up your grow room. *DISCLAIMER* If the waste heat from a CO2 generator is meant to be vented outside because of CO emissions do not follow this advice. I have never used a CO2 generator before and am unaware at how they operate.

My suggestion if you are still going to use T5's for flowering is not to bother with CO2. I'm getting outstanding veg plants with the colored T5's which in turn is setting up my plants with strong stems, tight internodes, large fan leaves, healthy root base, all in a nice coco/perlite medium. I then use a combination of MH, T5's, and Leds to flower. Everything has always turned out rock hard, sticky as superglue, and tastier than koolade.

CO2 is nice, last year I harvested 14 dry ounces off of one plant. Yeah the plant was a 4 foot tree, but it grew in a 1 gallon bucket! Needless to say the roots got so thick I had to break the bucket just to get the plant out at harvest time. The root system got so dense it stopped draining water well and got a little root rot in one area.  

CO2 can be a bit tricky if you don't have the other variables dialed in correctly. And if you don't, the CO2 will just float around the room and do nothing. Now if you live in an extremely hot environment already, more power to you. Make sure to keep your root zone cool when your room temps are above 90F!


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 21, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Don't set your hopes too high. 300-400% is a huge difference. Blue heavy in veg was turning 4" clones into plants bigger than 5gal buckets in 15 days. If you can triple to quadruple that, I'd be genuinely shocked. Honestly though, it doesn't take particularly awesome light to veg. Save your money and expensive bulb life there. Flowering is where you really see the payout. By all means, feel free to experiment though; that's just my thoughts on it.


*I hope you are ready to be genuinely shocked.*


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## intenseneal (Jul 22, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 1101487View attachment 1101488View attachment 1101489View attachment 1101490View attachment 1101491
> So when i decided to grow i started with a 400W hps and MH conversion bulb. I put up my tent and it was problem after problem. With the generous help from the people here i decided to throw away my setup and start from scratch. I purchased the Quantum Badboy 8 lamp T5. I started with the standard 6500k bulbs with some success. I wanted to buy an LED light but didnt have the money. So... i was at my buddies house and he has a LARGE aquarium and he showed me his bulbs..it clicked.. corals need light too and his lights produced the EXACT spectrum corals need to live and are capable of penetrating 3'+ of water. well corals and plants are very similar as they use the EXACT same light spectrum. Digging deeper i found bulbs that produce 410-460nm and 620-660 nm light.. That is also Exactly what LEDs put out..now putting one plus one together i decided to do a small test.. i bought 2 2' t5 lights ATI AND UVL Blue plus and Super Actinic. Explosive growth followed. i couldent believe my eyes. I was told on 4 different forums that actinic bulbs DO NOT WORK FOR plants boy were they really wrong!. i ahve since gone 100% T5 with various bulbs producing only yhe light spectrum that plants need. As you can see my plants are doing AMAZING for being grown with Actinic bulbs.2 of my bulbs are missing as they were broken upon arrrival. I will be changing out some of the blue bulbs with the deep red ones i found for flowering..they produce ONLY 630-660nm light. no other spectrum so i get 100% PAR. top that with MH...now i know what your thinking these lights are not bright at all... well its not about lumens.the human eye response isView attachment 1101463photosynthetic is View attachment 1101468, so your eyes do not see ALL the light these bulbs output. hardcore believers will flame me but let the math and the facts be known.HPS BULBS View attachment 1101469 Anyone notice a pattern here???? Lumens are not the ending factor to bud growth or you could not grow with LED. my sample grow i netted 1oz on a plant with only 116w. If your still in disbelief consider this, chect the spectrum charts for your coveted 3000k bulbs and overlay it with your chlorophyll response charts.. youll notice MOST of the light these bulbs prodice is outside the chloraphyll A+B peaks... now place the spectrums of my lights and overlay them...100% match.. seems to me im doing something right?


Very cool. I also am into Reef Aquarium keeping and when I got into growing I already knew that corals you the same types of lighting to live and grow as plants do. IAm running a 2ft 96W HO T5 freshwater aquarium plant fixture for my Veg cabinet and it is working very well, only running 6500K bulbs. I may look into the other T5 bulb options.


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## kpmarine (Jul 22, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> If you are planning on flowering with CO2, how do you plan on raising temps with T5 HO lamps? Are you going to use a space heater and a dehumidifier to do the job?
> 
> Because if so, you pretty much defeated the purpose of T5 HO lamps in that all the electricity it will take to dehumidify the grow space, AND THEN heat up the air that the dehumidifier just got done cooling down will be quite a bit more than if you were to just use a HPS or MH which will heat and dehumidify your grow space for you.
> 
> ...


My plants hit high-80's at the canopy with no fan. I can make my grow room break 100F if I turned off the vent fan and sealed the tent. T5's produce alot of heat; it's just well dispersed over the whole body of the bulb, making cooling much easier. Think of the difference in surface area between 1 400W HID, and the 4 T5's that would be equivalent wattage, roughly. Long story short: you can get a room hot with a T5, no problems., as long as you don't vent it.


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## polyarcturus (Jul 22, 2012)

in my 4x2x4 when i was running co2 and i would not vent that area for 3 hours often temps would get above 86.

ambient temps where about 70 at those times.


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## kpmarine (Jul 22, 2012)

nofogdj said:


> [FONT=&amp]I tried to search first to see if my questions were already answered in this thread but I could not find them. If they are answered somewhere in here sorry I over looked them.
> [/FONT]
> 
> [FONT=&amp]I'm going to be using two 16 bulb fixtures for lighting two grow rooms. one will be for veging, clones, and mother plants the other will be for flowering. What bulbs should I have in a 16 bulb fixture for both of these rooms?
> ...


Did you already buy the 16 bulb fixtures? If not, don't do it. Get 8 bulbs or, preferably, 4 bulb fixtures. Those huge panels are a pain to deal with and move around. Plus you get more efficient coverage with several smaller banks of light, not to mention adaptability increases.


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## kpmarine (Jul 22, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> in my 4x2x4 when i was running co2 and i would not vent that area for 3 hours often temps would get above 86.
> 
> ambient temps where about 70 at those times.


I moved my grow room to the root cellar, and it's 77.9F 10" below the lights. I'm sure if I sealed it off and took away the fan, it would get much warmer.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 23, 2012)

intenseneal said:


> Very cool. I also am into Reef Aquarium keeping and when I got into growing I already knew that corals you the same types of lighting to live and grow as plants do. IAm running a 2ft 96W HO T5 freshwater aquarium plant fixture for my Veg cabinet and it is working very well, only running 6500K bulbs. I may look into the other T5 bulb options.


Long wave Red light cannot make it to the ocean floor as easily as blue light, thus the corals have adapted to using mainly blue light as their source of energy. Their photosynthesis wavelength absorption graph is different than that of terrestrial plants. Mostly blue and quite a bit less red. Terrestrial plants are the opposite. For fruiting, 20% blue, 80% red.

Coral reef light absorption example,







Vs, Terrestrial plant light absorption example,






Then for flowering, the blue part is very small.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> My plants hit high-80's at the canopy with no fan. I can make my grow room break 100F if I turned off the vent fan and sealed the tent. T5's produce alot of heat; it's just well dispersed over the whole body of the bulb, making cooling much easier. Think of the difference in surface area between 1 400W HID, and the 4 T5's that would be equivalent wattage, roughly. Long story short: you can get a room hot with a T5, no problems., as long as you don't vent it.


You would still want/need fresh air intake. I suppose you could have your "air out" somewhere at the bottom of your grow space in order to trap the heat in up high.

What is your R/H when you are "trapping" all that heat and moisture in at your canopy? High R/H is not good for flower development/high potency.


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## nofogdj (Jul 23, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> If you are planning on flowering with CO2, how do you plan on raising temps with T5 HO lamps? Are you going to use a space heater and a dehumidifier to do the job?
> 
> Because if so, you pretty much defeated the purpose of T5 HO lamps in that all the electricity it will take to dehumidify the grow space, AND THEN heat up the air that the dehumidifier just got done cooling down will be quite a bit more than if you were to just use a HPS or MH which will heat and dehumidify your grow space for you.
> 
> ...


damn you're right. Maybe I should go with the t5 ho for the veg/mother room and do hps in the grow room. What bulbs should I buy if I'm just going to do t5s in the veg room? Does anyone know how much this will save percentage wise on my power bill if I go with t5s over a mh for vegging?



kpmarine said:


> Did you already buy the 16 bulb fixtures? If not, don't do it. Get 8 bulbs or, preferably, 4 bulb fixtures. Those huge panels are a pain to deal with and move around. Plus you get more efficient coverage with several smaller banks of light, not to mention adaptability increases.


No, I haven't bought them yet. I'm trying to get everything planned out right and then order everything at one time.

I'm trying to limit my self to 1k to get my whole grow operation up and running (ideally I would like to spend less).


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jul 23, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> If you are planning on flowering with CO2, how do you plan on raising temps with T5 HO lamps? Are you going to use a space heater and a dehumidifier to do the job?
> 
> Because if so, you pretty much defeated the purpose of T5 HO lamps in that all the electricity it will take to dehumidify the grow space, AND THEN heat up the air that the dehumidifier just got done cooling down will be quite a bit more than if you were to just use a HPS or MH which will heat and dehumidify your grow space for you.
> 
> ...


There will be plenty of heat if you have enough bulbs going for that T5. I need a portable AC in a room that i run 32 T5 bulbs and if I turned it off it would be about 90 in that room consistently. With Co2 i like my temps at 82-84.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 23, 2012)

^^^^^^What the fuck was I thinking, yeah T5's do produce enough heat as long as you aren't venting all of the heat out with proper air exchanges. I guess if you keep the fixture close enough to the canopy it may be ok. I still don't see how trapping your heat in your grow room is going to vent out the extra humidity you need to get out to get your R/H level below 50% for budding.


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## hyroot (Jul 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Did you already buy the 16 bulb fixtures? If not, don't do it. Get 8 bulbs or, preferably, 4 bulb fixtures. Those huge panels are a pain to deal with and move around. Plus you get more efficient coverage with several smaller banks of light, not to mention adaptability increases.



Thats why I got rid of mine. Then had spend the money on other shit unfortunately. Still got one 8 bulb an led and a 1000w (trying to sell)..


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## kpmarine (Jul 23, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> You would still want/need fresh air intake. I suppose you could have your "air out" somewhere at the bottom of your grow space in order to trap the heat in up high.
> 
> What is your R/H when you are "trapping" all that heat and moisture in at your canopy? High R/H is not good for flower development/high potency.


33%, I have to add a humidifier to up it around here. I don't let it get that warm normally. I just wanted to get an idea of how warm the room could get.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jul 24, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> ^^^^^^What the fuck was I thinking, yeah T5's do produce enough heat as long as you aren't venting all of the heat out with proper air exchanges. I guess if you keep the fixture close enough to the canopy it may be ok. I still don't see how trapping your heat in your grow room is going to vent out the extra humidity you need to get out to get your R/H level below 50% for budding.


U get a portable window AC that is a dehumidifier as well.


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## novice11 (Jul 24, 2012)

The new 660 came in and has been installed. So back to 4 660s / 2 Red Sun / Coral Wave / UVL 454.


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## hyroot (Jul 25, 2012)

Ok in veg I have two 6 bulbs. Now one had 2 fiji, 2 ati aquablue special, 2 6500k. The other 2 ati aquablue special, 4 6500 k. It seems the fijis slowed growth tremendously. Nodes much closer together though. The girls under the other t5 are much larger. A little more than twice the size. 

So a few days ago I took out fijis. Put them in flower in place of the coral waves. I swear the flowering sped up. I think the 2 weeks with the 3 coral waves slowed flowering. Might be too much 420nm blue. So fonz or poly or who ever said that might be right. The buds swelled up alot in those few days with the fiji's too. So now its 4 flora suns, 2 fiji, 2 redsun. When the redsuns die (soon probably) I will replace those with 2 uvl 660.

The fiji's might have more red than we thought. Maybe close to what we originally thought. 

In my veg the fiji's look very purple. The closet looked like led with the redish purple look... They suck for veg. Maybe good to have 1 or 2 per 8 bulb in flower. 

I bought the fiji's in the beginning, last september.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 25, 2012)

novice11 said:


> The new 660 came in and has been installed. So back to 4 660s / 2 Red Sun / Coral Wave / UVL 454.


Keep us updated with photos on how that lamp mixture is doing for your plants. So far I haven't seen anyone with that much red in their fixture despite my recommendations. It should be a solid spectrum for budding.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 25, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Ok in veg I have two 6 bulbs. Now one had 2 fiji, 2 ati aquablue special, 2 6500k. The other 2 ati aquablue special, 4 6500 k. It seems the fijis slowed growth tremendously. Nodes much closer together though. The girls under the other t5 are much larger. A little more than twice the size.
> 
> So a few days ago I took out fijis. Put them in flower in place of the coral waves. I swear the flowering sped up. I think the 2 weeks with the 3 coral waves slowed flowering. Might be too much 420nm blue. So fonz or poly or who ever said that might be right. The buds swelled up alot in those few days with the fiji's too. So now its 4 flora suns, 2 fiji, 2 redsun. When the redsuns die (soon probably) I will replace those with 2 uvl 660.
> 
> ...


The fiji's are mainly 460 blue spectrum. They are the same as ATI's purple plus. If there is any red in it, the peak would be at 630nm and not enough to really make a difference. I'm sure that the reason you saw slowed veg growth with tighter intervals is because the over-abundance of blue. 

I've completely stopped using deeper blue wavelengths in favor of 440nm and higher. Quantum Yield values for wavelengths between 440 and 460 are much higher than 400-420. You can also get away with fewer bulbs if they are in the 440-460nm range because they will effect your spectrum color greater than violet or indigo wavelengths(400-420nm). What I mean is, you can use fewer "blue lamps" and still get the color shift that is needed.

I am sure that the fiji's would be a better lamp for flowering since they are more in the 460nm blue region. It also could have something to do with your strains.

I think for veg, you just had way more blue than necessary.

Well, you will probably disagree like usual, but TMO anyway.


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## jsamuel24 (Jul 25, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> The fiji's are mainly 460 blue spectrum. They are the same as ATI's purple plus. If there is any red in it, the peak would be at 630nm and not enough to really make a difference. I'm sure that the reason you saw slowed veg growth with tighter intervals is because the over-abundance of blue.
> 
> I've completely stopped using deeper blue wavelengths in favor of 440nm and higher. Quantum Yield values for wavelengths between 440 and 460 are much higher than 400-420. You can also get away with fewer bulbs if they are in the 440-460nm range because they will effect your spectrum color greater than violet or indigo wavelengths(400-420nm). What I mean is, you can use fewer "blue lamps" and still get the color shift that is needed.
> 
> ...


That would make sence, I am thinking of pulling my Fiji that I bought when I first started and put in a second flora sun for my veg. I wont be flowering on my T5's anymore since I have been aquireing 1000w's for my new flower room, and next year or 18 months from now will be moving to plasma (and yes, I know that the price point sucks on the plasma, but I like where the tech is and where it is going) Will allways be using the t5's for veg, and in 6 weeks or so I will prolly be suplimenting my 2000W with 3 4X4 t5's in the flower room. As allways though, this thread has made me rethink what I need to do around my garden.

Snooch


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## hyroot (Jul 25, 2012)

I think I had too much red. When I tried all blue a year ago. They grew too fast and stretched alot. How do you know that the fiji and purple plus are the same? thomas pohl said the fiji had way more red. If your basing it off of reef geek forums. Those were all opinion. Unless you used a radiospectrometer or been to korallen zucht factory in germany then you really do not know...


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 25, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Unless you used a radiospectrometer or been to korallen zucht factory in germany then you really do not know...


I AM THOMAS POLE!!!!!

J/K. Actually I just purchased a new spectrometer today. It is accurate to + or - 1nm. We will see just how right I am in a few days. I'm sure you will still have your doubts though. You seem to doubt a lot actually.

I think those reef geeks tend to know a little(A LOT) more than us when it comes to aquarium lamps. After all, they've been in the industry longer than any of us have even been growing I'm sure. Those Aquaristik folk tend to know dar sheeznit.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 25, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> That would make sence, I am thinking of pulling my Fiji that I bought when I first started and put in a second flora sun for my veg. I wont be flowering on my T5's anymore since I have been aquireing 1000w's for my new flower room, and next year or 18 months from now will be moving to plasma (and yes, I know that the price point sucks on the plasma, but I like where the tech is and where it is going) Will allways be using the t5's for veg, and in 6 weeks or so I will prolly be suplimenting my 2000W with 3 4X4 t5's in the flower room. As allways though, this thread has made me rethink what I need to do around my garden.
> 
> Snooch


I haven't stopped using MH for flowering. I still have one small room that has a 1000w MH 3K Sunpulse for flowering along side 4 x h150 Kessil reds to boost the deep red spectrum since MH do not have much red past 630. Very little 630nm at that.

I did some T5 bud rounds a couple months ago just to see what all the hype was about, and I wasn't that impressed with the results. I do like T5's for vegging however, and I will never do anything else. I'm working on a secret spectrum of my own that has been literally working for every strain, and every type of plant that I've put under it. I don't know why it works so well yet, I will be able to see what's going on in the lightwaves when the spectrometer comes.

I'm so broke now. This device better be worth it for fuck sake! Those German's have all my money now!


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## jsamuel24 (Jul 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I haven't stopped using MH for flowering. I still have one small room that has a 1000w MH 3K Sunpulse for flowering along side 4 x h150 Kessil reds to boost the deep red spectrum since MH do not have much red past 630. Very little 630nm at that.
> 
> I did some T5 bud rounds a couple months ago just to see what all the hype was about, and I wasn't that impressed with the results. I do like T5's for vegging however, and I will never do anything else. I'm working on a secret spectrum of my own that has been literally working for every strain, and every type of plant that I've put under it. I don't know why it works so well yet, I will be able to see what's going on in the lightwaves when the spectrometer comes.
> 
> I'm so broke now. This device better be worth it for fuck sake! Those German's have all my money now!


Would love to compare spectrums with you sometime bro, if you feel like it feel free to pm me.

Snoogins


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## hyroot (Jul 26, 2012)

In all the threads on reef geek. They dont all agree on what the fiji is. They have the same debates. I'd love to get a radio spectrometer. But I dont have $8,000 to spare. Or let alone $250 to just rent one for a day. I have an oscilloscope though. Thats for audio ....


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 26, 2012)

^^^^^^^I bought a spectrometer. This will verify the wavelength peaks in the Fiji spectrum and put a cap on this debate once and for all. It was $1800, not $8000. I don't have that kind of cash. lol

It's accurate to the nearest 1nm so it should be fine. It gives intensity counts over wavelength just like the SPD's from most lamp manufacturers do.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 26, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Would love to compare spectrums with you sometime bro, if you feel like it feel free to pm me.
> 
> Snoogins


I have a few good resources for plasma lighting. It's an industrial lighting company, not a hydro company so the price point will be a lot lower since your are not paying for all the hype and advertising. Let me know if you want some links for the plasma lights. I think the most expensive one is around $400 for a 400w plasma.


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## jsamuel24 (Jul 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I have a few good resources for plasma lighting. It's an industrial lighting company, not a hydro company so the price point will be a lot lower since your are not paying for all the hype and advertising. Let me know if you want some links for the plasma lights. I think the most expensive one is around $400 for a 400w plasma.


OMG yes! lol, my partner was talking about paying the insane prices for a 300w plasma from the hydro side, would love a 400w plasma instead of my second 1000w hps....


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 26, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> OMG yes! lol, my partner was talking about paying the insane prices for a 300w plasma from the hydro side, would love a 400w plasma instead of my second 1000w hps....


Here are a couple different one's I was looking at. Check around the site, there are others. I was wrong about the price. It's $600 for a 300w. Sorry to get your hopes up. I think it's still cheaper than the hydro stores though.

http://www.electricalmarketplace.com/23-Square-Shoebox-with-with-IES-Type-V-Reflector-P2272C365.aspx

http://www.electricalmarketplace.com/23-Square-Shoebox-with-with-Wide-Angle-Reflector-P2274.aspx


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 26, 2012)

Here are a few other sites. Just type in induction 300w in google and you will come up with a lot of hits. Are they really worth all the hype though? Have you had any personal experience with them? I've never seen one in action so I have no idea if they work for budding.

http://www.neptunlight.com/products/4/1/induction-lighting.html?gclid=CO-aprXht7ECFYao4AodcE8A5w

Here's a 400w:

http://www.everlastlight.com/index.php/indoor-lighting/huron-aluminum-high-bay-300w-400w

Another 300w:

http://www.globalgreenlighting.com/product_detail/17/300w-induction-high-bay-light

Cheaper source:

http://inductiongrowlighting.com/

500w:

http://www.shineretrofits.com/neptun-light-32500-dim-500-watt-500w-step-dimming-100-50-high-bay-induction-fixture-32-reflector-10-year-warranty.html


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## jsamuel24 (Jul 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Here are a couple different one's I was looking at. Check around the site, there are others. I was wrong about the price. It's $600 for a 300w. Sorry to get your hopes up. I think it's still cheaper than the hydro stores though.
> 
> http://www.electricalmarketplace.com/23-Square-Shoebox-with-with-IES-Type-V-Reflector-P2272C365.aspx
> 
> http://www.electricalmarketplace.com/23-Square-Shoebox-with-with-Wide-Angle-Reflector-P2274.aspx



Thanks brother, I hadnt started pricing them out yet as I was gonna wait about 18 months, and stay with 2000w of hps, but this may change the plans a bit. Gonna have to think it over. +1 rep for the assist and thanks!


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## novice11 (Jul 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Keep us updated with photos on how that lamp mixture is doing for your plants. So far I haven't seen anyone with that much red in their fixture despite my recommendations. It should be a solid spectrum for budding.


I'm about a week or so away from harvest. The 660s will only have been in 3-4 weeks by then, not sure if that will have been enough time to prove anything.

Also - 2 of my plants were White Widows from Dinafem. Even after a 6 (SIX!!) week veg one is 4 1/2" tall the other is 6". The Diesel is a foot and the Silver Haze well over that, I had to bend that one over. 


These WWs have been tiny. I originally had 5 seeds, the other 2 also were very small. I still have a seed and I may not even use it. This batch of WW seeds were all super short. I won't be buying any of those again!

Mr. Fonz - I will be contacting you after these plants are harvested. I will want to know your thoughts on what exact bulbs - of the ones I have on hand - to use for the veg stage, if that's alright with you.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 26, 2012)

novice11 said:


> I will want to know your thoughts on what exact bulbs - of the ones I have on hand - to use for the veg stage, if that's alright with you.


Veg is my area of expertise when it comes to T5's. {{ For my blue loving Sativas}} I'm using 2 of the 660nm UVL, 1 TrueLumen 460nm, 1 UVL 75/25 for the deep blue(I question if the deep blue is even beneficial anymore.) I've also had really nice growth with a Flora Sun in place of the 75/25.

For my Indicas I'm using a 8-lamp 2 foot fixture that has 4 florasun, 2 redsun, 2 super actinic.(I also use ati blue plus in place of the super actinic for a "bluer" effect.)

May be different for you depending on strain you have. Try either one and go with the one they like best. All the plants really like the 660nm UVL's, just mix at a ratio that still gives you enough blue and red. Start with 1:1 blue/red and move your way red until the plants respond the best. Most of the lamps we use already have most of the key peaks in the Tri-band phosphors so there is little to worry about.


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## kpmarine (Jul 26, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Veg is my area of expertise when it comes to T5's. {{ For my blue loving Sativas}} I'm using 2 of the 660nm UVL, 1 TrueLumen 460nm, 1 UVL 75/25 for the deep blue(I question if the deep blue is even beneficial anymore.) I've also had really nice growth with a Flora Sun in place of the 75/25.
> 
> For my Indicas I'm using a 8-lamp 2 foot fixture that has 4 florasun, 2 redsun, 2 super actinic.(I also use ati blue plus in place of the super actinic for a "bluer" effect.)
> 
> May be different for you depending on strain you have. Try either one and go with the one they like best. All the plants really like the 660nm UVL's, just mix at a ratio that still gives you enough blue and red. Start with 1:1 blue/red and move your way red until the plants respond the best. Most of the lamps we use already have most of the key peaks in the Tri-band phosphors so there is little to worry about.


How goes progress towards this epic veg growth you were working towards? Any progress pics yet? Or have you not gotten into playing with that yet?


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## hyroot (Jul 26, 2012)

Have you guys checked out inda-gro plasma lights. Thats the route I would go if I were to get a plasma light. They do sulfur and induction plasma

http://inda-gro.com/store

Theres a thread on them in the led section.

https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/506257-inda-gro-induction.html


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## Kite High (Jul 26, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Have you guys checked out inda-gro plasma lights. Thats the route I would go if I were to get a plasma light. They do sulfur and induction plasma
> 
> http://inda-gro.com/store
> 
> ...


they do not so sulfur plasma only induction fluorescents which are over priced old tech that the chinese are attempting to dump ...


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## hyroot (Jul 27, 2012)

Uhh no shit its old tech. It was invented by Nikola Tesla in 1886. Its the oldest tech around that is still used. Its works better and more efficient than hid.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 27, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> How goes progress towards this epic veg growth you were working towards? Any progress pics yet? Or have you not gotten into playing with that yet?


Yeah, I've already flipped to 12/12 after a week of veg growth. Everything did really well under that mixture. Now I have new plants under them. I can do a before and after if you want to see how well it works?


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## Cbm7 (Jul 27, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Yeah, I've already flipped to 12/12 after a week of veg growth. Everything did really well under that mixture. Now I have new plants under them. I can do a before and after if you want to see how well it works?



Any pictures will do. 

okaythanks


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## Kite High (Jul 28, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Uhh no shit its old tech. It was invented by Nikola Tesla in 1886. Its the oldest tech around that is still used. Its works better and more efficient than hid.


sorry but that is surely inaccurate...produces no where's near the micomoles (energy photon content measurement) ...but you can believe the hype if it makes you happy


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## hyroot (Jul 28, 2012)

thats just a unit of measurmement which is irrelevant like lumens. if you compare actual spectrums. plasma actually follows chorophyll a and b and c unlike hid. when it comes to light its about spectrum. now the blue region has the most photons. the plasma has way way higher and wider spikes of blue than hid does, there fore it has more energy. so there you are very wrong. continue to hate all you want... led even has more photons than hid. plasma surpasses led. unfortunately plasma is not in high demand. once it is the price will drop.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 28, 2012)

Regarding plasma/induction lighting. I bet a 300w plasma combined with 4 or so UVL 660nm T5's would be a dope ass combo making for some dope ass growth. Someone should try this idea and then give me millions after they find out it rocks the ship right out of the water, what a great idea. clap clap clap


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## Kite High (Jul 28, 2012)

hyroot said:


> thats just a unit of measurmement which is irrelevant like lumens. if you compare actual spectrums. plasma actually follows chorophyll a and b and c unlike hid. when it comes to light its about spectrum. now the blue region has the most photons. the plasma has way way higher and wider spikes of blue than hid does, there fore it has more energy. so there you are very wrong. continue to hate all you want... led even has more photons than hid. plasma surpasses led. unfortunately plasma is not in high demand. once it is the price will drop.


Otay buckwheat. No longer wasting my time here. You all have a great existence.


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## PetFlora (Jul 29, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Regarding plasma/induction lighting. I bet a 300w plasma combined with 4 or so UVL 660nm T5's would be a dope ass combo making for some dope ass growth. Someone should try this idea and then give me millions after they find out it rocks the ship right out of the water, what a great idea. clap clap clap



I have seen one that has something like 4 arms. Each arm as a different spectrum bulb (not sure whether 660 is available) + it slow rotates like a fan. Last time I check it was $$$$$$$$$


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 29, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I have seen one that has something like 4 arms. Each arm as a different spectrum bulb (not sure whether 660 is available) + it slow rotates like a fan. Last time I check it was $$$$$$$$$


Hahaha, yeah that's the Sunpulse thingy. It's the biggest joke waste of money scam there ever was. Sunpulse MH lamps are nothing special, unless you think the fancy box that they put the lamp in worth the $160 they charge for a basic MH lamp.

The different K ratings on a Sunpulse MH vary because of the different amount of yellow they have in the lamps. MH do not have any red beyond 600nm, that's why buds are always smaller under them.

Don't get me wrong, I use a Sunpulse 3k MH for budding only because I like the quality of the buds under MH and it's the only MH I knew of at the time of purchase that works with a digi ballast. I've been experimenting with some new brands of MH recently however.

The owner of Sunpulse is a jerk. The lamps are made in China and have extreme quality control issues. I've had to replace 3 of the lamps under warranty in the last year. The nice thing about them is the 2 year warranty however. I'm sure they can offer a 2 year warranty because of the unGodly prices they slap on them. I'm sure the markup on those fuckers has to be around 6000%.

I don't get the whole idea behind using 4 lamps that have different K ratings and are ALL the same kind of MH lamp. So, are they trying to tell us that adding more yellow and blue in varying amounts is going to create better growth? LOL Muahahahah. Buy 4 lamps to do the job that one does. That's what they want.

Ever notice that Sunpulse does NOT put the SPD graph on their packaging with all the fancy flowers and other hype on the packaging? Yeah, it's because they don't want the customers to see that the MH is nothing more than a basic MH. Once I get my spectrometer I will take a reading of a Sunpulse lamp so everyone can see what nonsense they are.

The glass is paper thin, the element inside turns to char and burns off leaving crap floating around inside the tube.

Yeah I use the 3k Sunpulse BUT NOT FOR LONG. It takes a long time for the plants to adapt to the shitty light spectrum they give off, but when they finally do, the buds turn out really nice. It's not like any other MH wouldn't work. There are a few other companies that make digi MH now. 

There are also a few companies in the aquarium industry that have been making GERMAN MH for a long time and can be used nicely in digi ballasts. They don't even flicker on startup like pretty much all of the hydro store lamps do. There's always digilux. Pretty much the same thing as Sunpulse at 1/3 the cost. Same shitty design though.

I gotta stop. I could go on forever complaining about this shit. Grow stores are a big hyped up advertisement scam that calls you at home on a Sunday when you are just getting ready to eat dinner, or go to bed.


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## hyroot (Jul 29, 2012)

Ive seen 1000 w sun puls bulbs blister. I agree they are poorly made. The abnoxiousness of that company. They are nobody. Well knowns like the owners of seed companies and writers and editors of high times and what not are so humble. Those guys are famous.

For mh. The hortilux blue rocks. You can flowere all the way through with that. Unfortunatley the bulb costs around $200.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 29, 2012)

I have a 400w horti blue with mag ballast. Unfortunately I only have a 1000w electronic ballast right now so I won't be getting a 1000w blue mh anytime soon. I do like my 400w'r. I don't understand why the hortilux's are so finicky in a digi. Most of the aquarium MH do great in e. balllasts. Never had one not fire to this day. With the horti blue it wouldn't fire up 1/2 the time. Hope to be budding under LEDs soon anyway as long as my spectrum choice works well. I'm fairly confident it will.


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## hyroot (Jul 30, 2012)

I ran hortilux in my 1000 never had a problem. Its a Quantum ballast. . Thats the only one I would ever use for hid.


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## Indicanna Jones (Jul 30, 2012)

Would a Coralife Colormax be a good choice for flowering? My local pet store has them on sale for $10.


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## polyarcturus (Jul 30, 2012)

yeah sure not the best but better than a 3000k bloom bulb, maybe buy one or 2 because they are on sale i would.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 30, 2012)

Indicanna Jones said:


> Would a Coralife Colormax be a good choice for flowering? My local pet store has them on sale for $10.


Yeah, $10 is a steal. Buy as many as you can. Then mix them 50/50 to some UVL 660nm and you got yourself a great budding spectrum. I haven't flowered with it yet, but it works in veg. It's a really nice color. Should work really great for budding. Give it a try! Post some photos.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 30, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I ran hortilux in my 1000 never had a problem. Its a Quantum ballast. . Thats the only one I would ever use for hid.


Aww, fuck, I purchased a 1000w Galaxy a long time ago. I definitely would rather have a Quantum. Might have to give a 400w Quantum a go and use it with my 400w Hortilux Blue. Not sure if they even make a 400w.


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## Fonzarelli (Jul 30, 2012)

I got some hexarc ocean blue samples for free. They are practically identical to aquablue specials from ATI. So if they are cheaper, it's an alternative. Not sure how much they will be when they are released.


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## hyroot (Jul 30, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Aww, fuck, I purchased a 1000w Galaxy a long time ago. I definitely would rather have a Quantum. Might have to give a 400w Quantum a go and use it with my 400w Hortilux Blue. Not sure if they even make a 400w.


Quantum does a 400. Get it from discount hydro. They own quantum and everything else. R&M supply, c.a.p.,, max lume, ushio, digilux, and a some others I cant think of. 

The sales manager even matched ebay prices on the badboys. I said to them. You own it so you should be able to.beat anyones price. That worked. Surprisingly.....


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## hyroot (Jul 30, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I got some hexarc ocean blue samples for free. They are practically identical to aquablue specials from ATI. So if they are cheaper, it's an alternative. Not sure how much they will be when they are released.


Same price. Marine depot has both for $18.99


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## Indicanna Jones (Jul 31, 2012)

Thanks for the help.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Jul 31, 2012)

do you guys still grow on this thread or just talk about the bulbs still?


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## hyroot (Jul 31, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> do you guys still grow on this thread or just talk about the bulbs still?


Whats this grow thing you speak of?


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## PetFlora (Aug 1, 2012)

LV I think most of the early subbesr have learned what they needed and moved on. Several of us have our own journal/threads to follow


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## jsamuel24 (Aug 1, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> LV I think most of the early subbesr have learned what they needed and moved on. Several of us have our own journal/threads to follow


Yeah it seems like most of us that posted alot in here got tired of the bickering from the trolls that would come in and say what we are or were doing wasnt worth it, at least thats why i stoped posting in here so much.

Snoogins


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## novice11 (Aug 1, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Veg is my area of expertise when it comes to T5's. {{ For my blue loving Sativas}} I'm using 2 of the 660nm UVL, 1 TrueLumen 460nm, 1 UVL 75/25 for the deep blue(I question if the deep blue is even beneficial anymore.) I've also had really nice growth with a Flora Sun in place of the 75/25.
> 
> For my Indicas I'm using a 8-lamp 2 foot fixture that has 4 florasun, 2 redsun, 2 super actinic.(I also use ati blue plus in place of the super actinic for a "bluer" effect.)
> 
> May be different for you depending on strain you have. Try either one and go with the one they like best. All the plants really like the 660nm UVL's, just mix at a ratio that still gives you enough blue and red. Start with 1:1 blue/red and move your way red until the plants respond the best. Most of the lamps we use already have most of the key peaks in the Tri-band phosphors so there is little to worry about.


Thanks!! My tardy response aside, a big LIKE to you.


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## novice11 (Aug 1, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I AM THOMAS POLE!!!!!
> 
> J/K. Actually I just purchased a new spectrometer today. It is accurate to + or - 1nm. We will see just how right I am in a few days. I'm sure you will still have your doubts though. You seem to doubt a lot actually.
> 
> I think those reef geeks tend to know a little(A LOT) more than us when it comes to aquarium lamps. After all, they've been in the industry longer than any of us have even been growing I'm sure. Those Aquaristik folk tend to know dar sheeznit.


Wondering if you have tried to "SPEC" out a FIJI yet.....wondering what spectrum it actually has.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 1, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Wondering if you have tried to "SPEC" out a FIJI yet.....wondering what spectrum it actually has.


I'm still waiting for it to get here. Should be next week I was told. I will get right on it once it does. You'll be the first to know.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 1, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> do you guys still grow on this thread or just talk about the bulbs still?


I try to grow, but the god damn bugs keep fucking with my shit. Most of the juice that we are on about now revolves around spectrum.


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## scotchtape51 (Aug 1, 2012)

For someone flowering with a 4ft 8bulb fixture with all 8 bulbs being the red/flowering color would there be a notable increase in quality or quantity switching to 6red/2blue? A 2ft 4 bulb fixture is available as side lighting, but It has only blue/veg bulbs. Would it be worth the cost of electricity to use the little fixture as a sidelight(24 watts X 4 bulbs = 96 watts )? Is that too much blue?


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## jsamuel24 (Aug 1, 2012)

scotchtape51 said:


> For someone flowering with a 4ft 8bulb fixture with all 8 bulbs being the red/flowering color would there be a notable increase in quality or quantity switching to 6red/2blue? A 2ft 4 bulb fixture is available as side lighting, but It has only blue/veg bulbs. Would it be worth the cost of electricity to use the little fixture as a sidelight(24 watts X 4 bulbs = 96 watts )? Is that too much blue?


Me personaly I would add the extra lighting, but change one of the blues in it out for a flora sun. Just my opinion though.

Snoogins


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## Bonzo Mendoza (Aug 4, 2012)

pr0fesseur said:


> i purchased the following...
> UVL Red sun 630nm
> UVL 454nm
> UVL Super Actinic peaks at 420nm
> ...


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## novice11 (Aug 4, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I try to grow, but the god damn bugs keep fucking with my shit. Most of the juice that we are on about now revolves around spectrum.


What kind of bugs?


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## PetFlora (Aug 5, 2012)

I'm still battling aphids. Started multiple sprays yesterday using home made chili concentrate (working on dilution strength) + Borax mixed into RO water. I time them now, and rinse spray after ~ 1 hour


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## PetFlora (Aug 5, 2012)

scotchtape51 said:


> For someone flowering with a 4ft 8bulb fixture with all 8 bulbs being the red/flowering color would there be a notable increase in quality or quantity switching to 6red/2blue? A 2ft 4 bulb fixture is available as side lighting, but It has only blue/veg bulbs. Would it be worth the cost of electricity to use the little fixture as a sidelight(24 watts X 4 bulbs = 96 watts )? Is that too much blue?


That could be a lot of blue. Probably OK if you are growing Indica. Can't you change the bulbs?


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 5, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I'm still battling aphids. Started multiple sprays yesterday using home made chili concentrate (working on dilution strength) + Borax mixed into RO water. I time them now, and rinse spray after ~ 1 hour


I've had REALLY good results using straight finely ground garlic powder on the top of the soil, and mixed into your drain tray and sprinkled on the leaves. Also, use finely ground cayenne pepper the same way. They won't even come out of the soil if you do that. No sweat on them aphids anymore. You could probably even make a garlic/cayenne pepper tea with water and spray the leaves and stems. The nice thing about garlic and cayenne is that it is harmless to plants. It really does work quite well.

Finally got rid of the thrips using the Monterey garden spray. One hit wonder! Easy peazy.


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## hyroot (Aug 5, 2012)

Ancient forest compost got rid of gnats once and for alll for me. Top dress and thats it. Predatory mites are found in compost. They eat all other bugs and die off once bugs / food source is gone. The compost messes with bugs nervous system like rosemary does. Plus all the beneficial bacteria and fungi. Ancient forest makes the best compost tea too.


Read up on Dr. Elaine Ingham. microbiologist and considered the queen of compost.


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## scotchtape51 (Aug 5, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> That could be a lot of blue. Probably OK if you are growing Indica. Can't you change the bulbs?



I don't have any 2ft bulbs on hand and no extra cash for supplies now. I just added the 2 footer with the blue bulbs in it.
EDIT: oh yea and it seems like I could only get them in a large case, not just 2 or four bulbs.


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## Kite High (Aug 10, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I'm still battling aphids. Started multiple sprays yesterday using home made chili concentrate (working on dilution strength) + Borax mixed into RO water. I time them now, and rinse spray after ~ 1 hour


dust with the borax then wait a while and mist...much more effective dry...like de


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## PetFlora (Aug 11, 2012)

KH What are you using to dust? I have a cheap bellows, but it either doesn't dust enough or too much

Then when I mist the dust congeals into a coating on the leaves.


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## stoned cockatoo (Aug 13, 2012)

Randomly stumbled upon this thread, pretty interesting read. 
The t5s brought came with 2 actinic and 2 daylight 12000k
I was going to change them up but after reading this I might stick with 1 or 2 actinic bulbs what would you recommend I mix them with considering I only veg under the t5?


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## polyarcturus (Aug 13, 2012)

swap up the 2 actinic bulbs for either some 6500k bulbs or some florasuns you got Wayyy to much blue x2 1200k and x2 6500k or 5000k(florasun) would be a better spectrum for veg.


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## jsamuel24 (Aug 14, 2012)

Just thought I would stop by and show off my veg a little bit. Even though I went to HPS for flowering since I built a new room I will prolly allways veg under par t5's

*8-8-2012











8-14-2012







*Snoochie Boochie Noochies!


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 18, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Just thought I would stop by and show off my veg a little bit. Even though I went to HPS for flowering since I built a new room I will prolly allways veg under par t5's
> 
> *8-8-2012
> 
> ...


Looking really nice mate!


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 18, 2012)

Just thought I'd let anyone know that is interested. The new device came today and here is a spd reading of the Fiji Purple lamp that some have been waiting for, sure is crazy how manufacturer's "edit" their spd that they put on their packaging. I took spd's of all the different lamps I have and a lot of them are extremely similar. I guess the different manufacturers like to change it up a little bit on their "packaging spd" so that it looks like they are selling a different product when really they are not.

Believe it or not, all of the T5 lamps peak at 405 and 435, including the red sun lamp. Also, the red sun lamp does contain a little 700nm as well. I will post that graph along with the Fiji.

I really do like the Truelumen 460nm, it has a lot of the 460nm just like it says. Still has the 405 and 435 peak like all of them do. Well, here you go.
Fiji Purple lamp





Redsun lamp


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## Lucius Vorenus (Aug 18, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Just thought I'd let anyone know that is interested. The new device came today and here is a spd reading of the Fiji Purple lamp that some have been waiting for, sure is crazy how manufacturer's "edit" their spd that they put on their packaging. I took spd's of all the different lamps I have and a lot of them are extremely similar. I guess the different manufacturers like to change it up a little bit on their "packaging spd" so that it looks like they are selling a different product when really they are not.
> 
> Believe it or not, all of the T5 lamps peak at 410 and 435, including the red sun lamp. Also, the red sun lamp does contain a little 660nm as well. I will post that graph along with the Fiji.
> 
> ...


Any chance you can test the FloraSun and the Agromax 3000k bulbs? Those have been my best bloomers yet.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 18, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Any chance you can test the FloraSun and the Agromax 3000k bulbs? Those have been my best bloomers yet.


yeah, I did the florasun, the only 3000k lamp I tested was a GE one. Here they are.
Florasun lamp





GE 3000k lamp






Also, in case you were wondering Hyroot, the Florasun has a much better output than the Sylvania Gro-Lux FYI. I made the mistake and had a few shipped over from Europe to try them out. Florasun and ATI Procolors are very similar as well. Found a place that still had some 2ft Procolors left and they are the best as far as tri-band+deep red. If you really want me to I can upload the SPD of the Sylvania and Procolor, but I don't want this to get out of hand unless you guys want to start donating some loot LOL, wasn't cheap.


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## polyarcturus (Aug 18, 2012)

really interested in the info on the truelumens!!

hell i throw 20$ your way in a month, waiting on a check.. but anyways yeah man keep up the spds i would be happy for any of these real spectrums graphs just Pm all of em to me if you got free time.


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## jsamuel24 (Aug 18, 2012)

Fonz, not sure if you have one but can you test out the Coralife Colormax if you have one please. Thinking of replacing my fiji or my Actric with that to get a bit of the blue out of my reg.

Snoogins


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## PetFlora (Aug 18, 2012)

*Nice job by you Fonz! *

Have a question, I noticed the vertical legend is different, some start at zero with first demarcation at 10, others it's 1000. What's up with that?


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 18, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> *Nice job by you Fonz! *
> 
> Have a question, I noticed the vertical legend is different, some start at zero with first demarcation at 10, others it's 1000. What's up with that?


I have my device on auto-adjust right now for aperature speed. My guess is that it also adjusts the "vertical axis" which is also relative intensity. It makes no difference if it is 10 or 1000 because it is only used to understand the relationship of the intensity between the peaks within the light spectra being studied.

My guess is that I had the optic closer to the lamps on the ones that have 1000's as the interval. It adjusts itself so that the relative intensity stays the same and you don't get over-saturation when taking a reading. It's a really nice feature.

Just ignore the y-axis, it is not measuring absolute intensity in watts or whatever they measure it with. It is only meant to be used to relate the intensity of the peaks within a light source. This is true for all SPDs, they are not giving you the actual "energy" output(I can't remember the actual name), it is just there to show you how the intensities of the peaks within a light source relate. Basically it is there to show you the ratio of the peak intensities between the peaks within a light source. Does this make sense? I'm having a hard time putting my thoughts into words right now. Just woke up. LOL


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 18, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Fonz, not sure if you have one but can you test out the Coralife Colormax if you have one please. Thinking of replacing my fiji or my Actric with that to get a bit of the blue out of my reg.
> 
> Snoogins


I don't have one, but the graph is on the internet. It's basically the same as the Florasun though. Actually I bet a person could get by using all Florasuns for veg if they wanted to. I really like my 50/50 UVL660/TrueLumen 460nm setup with 2 x UVL660 and 2 x TrueLumen 460. It's a bit on the blue side, but it really makes rooting a breeze and keeps everything short and stocky. Keeps everything shorter overall when I move the plants to the flowering cave.

Why are you changing anything in your veg fixture? Your plants look nice with the way you have it set up now. Are the internodes closer than you would like? In other words, are they bushier than you want them to be or something?


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## jsamuel24 (Aug 18, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I don't have one, but the graph is on the internet. It's basically the same as the Florasun though. Actually I bet a person could get by using all Florasuns for veg if they wanted to. I really like my 50/50 UVL660/TrueLumen 460nm setup with 2 x UVL660 and 2 x TrueLumen 460. It's a bit on the blue side, but it really makes rooting a breeze and keeps everything short and stocky. Keeps everything shorter overall when I move the plants to the flowering cave.
> 
> Why are you changing anything in your veg fixture? Your plants look nice with the way you have it set up now. Are the internodes closer than you would like? In other words, are they bushier than you want them to be or something?


Last 2 veges ended up a bit bushier then i wanted so just wanted to see what happens if i change the veg spectrum slightly. It was very heavy blue and I think it might work better if i switch out the fiji like we were talking about in my journal. Gonna try my coral point red wave instead of the fiji for the next two weeks or so and see how it changes the fog and gdp that are in there now. Just trying to get slightly more then a quarter inch between nodes.

Snooch


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 18, 2012)

jsamuel24 said:


> Last 2 veges ended up a bit bushier then i wanted so just wanted to see what happens if i change the veg spectrum slightly. It was very heavy blue and I think it might work better if i switch out the fiji like we were talking about in my journal. Gonna try my coral point red wave instead of the fiji for the next two weeks or so and see how it changes the fog and gdp that are in there now. Just trying to get slightly more then a quarter inch between nodes.
> 
> Snooch


Makes sense. I bet if you were to add a 3000k lamp or a 6000k or 6500k or something with green/yellow that would give a little more internodal distance.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Aug 18, 2012)

Gotta test the bloom bulbs sold by HtGSupply. WHatever that spectrum is it works great


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## Dr.J20 (Aug 18, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Gotta test the bloom bulbs sold by HtGSupply. WHatever that spectrum is it works great


I'd be interested in this too...been thinking about grabbing a box of htg's t5s for a while now

LV, you're talking about the agromax bulbs right?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Aug 18, 2012)

Dr.J20 said:


> I'd be interested in this too...been thinking about grabbing a box of htg's t5s for a while now
> 
> LV, you're talking about the agromax bulbs right?


^^^^^Yessir


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 18, 2012)

Lucius Vorenus said:


> Gotta test the bloom bulbs sold by HtGSupply. WHatever that spectrum is it works great


Don't they have the SPD listed already? I guess I could see if the local hydro shop sells them. I'm already quite positive that if it's a 3000k lamp, it's going to be identical to the ge 3000k and every other 3000k "yellow-green" flowering lamp. I've seen such close similarities between the German HQ T5's that I have no doubts. Especially when it comes to these cheaper "horti-lamp" type lamps.

These "specialty hydro brands" are really good at tricking the customer into thinking they have a special product when it is just a relabeled lamp from a different company. It's much cheaper for them to invest in a labeling company and buy rights to a product than to invest in an entire lamp manufacturing plant. It's also very cheap to have crap made offshore in China. There are also fewer rules over there so they can really "stretch the truth" with their products, just like the German company did with the Fiji lamps. 

I have a hard time accepting the fact that people do this, it's so fucked up but it's the real deal. 

These lamps are the same as a "warm-white." Phillips and other companies make them and they are labeled as "827" in their product number. You can buy them fairly cheap by the case from household type light bulb distribution centers. They work because they are very yellow, which is on the red side of the spectrum so they balance your entire T5 spectrum to the red side better than nothing. Your good results are probably more due to the fact that you are using good nutes or are running your Ph correctly, etc. rather than being a spectrum issue.

I could be wrong, but I'm willing to bet that I'm not. Either way, plants can adapt fairly easily to a light source(take HPS for example) even if it has a shitty spectrum. It's the plant's "duty" to make flowers, so that's what it does best. I still think the best spectrum is one that has a high 95%-100% absorption spectra rate, in other words, a spectrum that is intense in the red/blue wavelengths, and less of the green/yellow/orange/IR etc. 

I still have yet to see a red/blue only led or T5 spectrum out-perform a MH or HPS in bud density. Quality yes, but weight no. I want to see this happen still! I'm convinced it will someday. The best "low-power" grow setup that I've seen so far utilized neutral white leds. They only used 80w of neutral white leds and got the quality we've seen in T5 buds plus the weight and density we see in HID. He used 80w in a 18" x 18" area micro-grow with 4 plants in a mini sea-o-green setup.

I tried adding 500w of halogen to a really nice MH of mine that normally works well on it's own. I thought since the halogens are so plentiful in the "deep red" zone that they would really add a lot of "power" to the spectrum. I was wrong, they didn't do shit. It might have been because I added them really late into flower and the plants couldn't adapt to the lights fast enough.

BUT, it also might be due the fact that the halogens are very high in the green/yellow/IR spectrums and throw the entire spectrum balance off. We are searching for a ratio of wavelengths, that is strain specific.

Back to the yellow T5's. You guys, there is nothing special about these lamps, they are just plentiful in the "red-spectra." 

If you ever see a T5 or any other florescent SPD chart that looks like an even "wave" across the whole spectrum, IT'S A BIG FAT LIE!!!!!!! No florescent lamp spectrum is evenly distributed across the whole visible spectrum. 

Most floro lamps contain mercury which actually peaks at 185nm. That's somewhere in the UVc zone. Obviously this would be REALLY bad, but when they add the phosphor coating to the inside of the glass tubes, it blocks the 185nm wavelength and turns that energy into the visible light wavelengths. 

The phosphors create PEAKS across the visible spectrum and so do MH and HPS. The SPD will never look like a gradual wave or curve across the x,y axis so if you see it, you should question the authenticity and honesty of that lamp company.

But, if it works, it works. So buy the cheapest crap that works and stick with it if that's what makes you happy, but if you want to see dense ass buds that actually beat HPS and MH watt to gram and in quality or whatever and also utilizes T5's or leds or any other low powered light source, then keep trying. I'm sure we will see it happen some day.

Sorry for the rambling, wanted to clear some misconceptions up that even I was mislead by in the industry at one time.


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## PetFlora (Aug 19, 2012)

If you look at the spd for Florasun, I think you will have the basic ratio, then adjust slightly for Indica or Sat


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## PSUAGRO. (Aug 19, 2012)

I agree about the florasuns.........granted I only tried three different configs(don't have the $$) and the florasuns(3-24w in an eight bulb panel) really showed an improvement over my all white(6400k agrobrite-hydrofarm) in my setup...........adding the 2 new wave(blue) bulbs was a mistake/slowed growth...


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 19, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> If you look at the spd for Florasun, I think you will have the basic ratio, then adjust slightly for Indica or Sat


Has anyone tried using only the Florasuns for growing yet? I haven't seen this done before. 

I've tried combining them with 6500k daylight lamps at a 50/50 mix and had some crazy growth. The results were fast growth rate with major stretching. I think the stretching was due to the abundance of green in both the 6500k and the Florasuns. Just a guess though. 

It could have been from all the yellow 610nm in the 6500k. The Florasuns have some yellow as well. Maybe it's both.

I know that IR is supposed to be responsible for some of the stretching, but I believe that abundant yellow light causes major stretch maybe even more so than Infra-Red. HPS does the same thing and it's pretty much a giant peak at 610nm, and when you look at a SPD from a HPS, there isn't much IR in them. That's why I think the majority of the major stretch is caused from the abundance of the yellow wavelength.


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## PSUAGRO. (Aug 19, 2012)

I think an all florasun setup should work well throughout......the problem I pay 15 bucks a pop here locally and the ones I have already shown signs of filament wear at the end caps with less than three months use.


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## hyroot (Aug 19, 2012)

That's why I'm starting to get over par t5. Bulbs are not lasting. A few made it to almost a year. 3 burned out in 8 months. 2 more 2 months later. Replacing 8 bulbs costs more than hps. I do get better results under t5 though. The bulbs burning out have hit me at the wrong time. I'm rockin 6 bulbs right now on my 8 bulb. 

When i get the next led and new bulbs for t5 ( in 2-3 weeks). I will take the 1000 down for the 5th time and be able to cover the area properly with 2 led's. Might not get a 3rd led for now. I'll do t5 and led and compare. t5 and led the best of both worlds


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 19, 2012)

Maybe it's time to move on finally?! hehe, Who's down for a new thread? Maybe we should call it "Leds WITH Leds," my first Led grow? LOL Ok, I'm on it. Almost ready to start my first genuine ALL LED grow. 

No more wasted electricity through heat and messed up wavelength ratio and through cooling the damn super hot ass lamps! Yay! No more burned out fucked up defective Sunpulse bulbs! Yay! No more risk of fire! Yay! No more big fat super huge dense buds! Wait what?! Guess we'll find out soon enough! LOL


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## hyroot (Aug 20, 2012)

I get big dense buds under my t5 even denser than my 1000 watt. Thats due to IR. You keep changing bulbs with out doing a full run with just one set up. only change bulbs once every batch (2-3 months). Not every few days. Otherwise you can't judge which bulbs did what. Experimenting takes time just like breeding strains. That takes 2 years minimum to back cross 2 strains.


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## Beagle (Aug 20, 2012)

Fonzarelli, you wouldn't by any chance have one of these new UVL 660nm bulbs you could test?


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## polyarcturus (Aug 20, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Fonzarelli, you wouldn't by any chance have one of these new UVL 660nm bulbs you could test?


i tried to tell id throw him 20$s.... i want to see more of these graphs really i want you to test for UV from HQI halide with the glass removed or a thin layer of borosilicate between the light and plants.


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## PetFlora (Aug 20, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Maybe it's time to move on finally?! hehe, Who's down for a new thread? Maybe we should call it "Leds WITH Leds," my first Led grow? LOL Ok, I'm on it. Almost ready to start my first genuine ALL LED grow.
> 
> No more wasted electricity through heat and messed up wavelength ratio and through cooling the damn super hot ass lamps! Yay! No more burned out fucked up defective Sunpulse bulbs! Yay! No more risk of fire! Yay! No more big fat super huge dense buds! Wait what?! Guess we'll find out soon enough! LOL


Well the point of this thread is/was an *alternative *to more expensive lighting, whether it's cost to neutralize heat of HIDs, or high cost of equivalent LED watts. That said, the cost of leds is coming down and DIYers are cutting a path through the manufacturers BS as to which spectrums for v/b


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## PetFlora (Aug 20, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Fonzarelli, you wouldn't by any chance have one of these new UVL 660nm bulbs you could test?


I have it somewhere. it's not on their site. Will email Jeff about that


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## mrcourios (Aug 20, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> I have it somewhere. it's not on their site. Will email Jeff about that


Where are you guys finding these UVL 660's at?


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 20, 2012)

Beagle said:


> Fonzarelli, you wouldn't by any chance have one of these new UVL 660nm bulbs you could test?


It was posted a long time ago on page #454 of this thread.

But here it is anyway


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 20, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Well the point of this thread is/was an *alternative *to more expensive lighting, whether it's cost to neutralize heat of HIDs, or high cost of equivalent LED watts. That said, the cost of leds is coming down and DIYers are cutting a path through the manufacturers BS as to which spectrums for v/b


This is obviously a joke in price, but check this out. Leds are so friggin cool. They're like magic, no lamp, no element, pure magic.
http://www.lightinguniverse.com/bay-lighting/think-pure-light-tpl-hb150-150w-high-power-led-high-bay_g1265938.html?isku=9425541&linkloc=cataLogProductItemsImage


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 20, 2012)

Since a few growers here have tried the UVL Super Actinic, I thought I would post the SPD for it, along with the SPD of the Coral Wave to show how they compare. It sure is interesting how the company slightly alters the SPD on their packaging to make it look "prettier" or whatever. These SPDs I am doing are extremely accurate. Here also, is a SPD I did of a 400w HPS Hortilux and one of the 660nm UVL to show how accurate my readings are. You can see the slight difference in the line on my SPD reading. The little "sawtooth" edges are due to noise in the reading.

I also posted the SPD of the Veg spectrum I'm using right now. It has 2 x UVL 660nm and 2 x TrueLumen 460nm. Also I am posting the SPD for the TrueLumen 460nm(for you Poly) since the company won't give us the REAL SPD.

UVL Super Actinic





Coral Wave





HPS 400w Hortilux





UVL 660nm(my reading)





UVL660nm + TrueLumen 460nm





TrueLumen 460nm


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 20, 2012)

hyroot said:


> I get big dense buds under my t5 even denser than my 1000 watt. Thats due to IR. You keep changing bulbs with out doing a full run with just one set up. only change bulbs once every batch (2-3 months). Not every few days. Otherwise you can't judge which bulbs did what. Experimenting takes time just like breeding strains. That takes 2 years minimum to back cross 2 strains.


I know you think that you are right about IR, but I am starting to doubt you. Notice how there is NO IR < 800nm in the Hortilux HPS, yet it has been said here a number of times that HPS has all this IR in it which causes the stretch. The IR that comes from HPS is pure heat. That's what IR is anyway.

Now you are saying it causes bud density, which just can't be true. IR is pretty much just heat. Now, if you are actually talking about the 730nm wavelength which does the Pf>Pfr conversion, that is actually considered "far-red" NOT IR. So, yes, 730nm light MAY be one of the causes for bud density, but do take note that there is ABSOLUTELY ZERO 730nm in an HPS spectrum, yet HPS lamps are known for creating dense buds. Far-Red and IR are not the same thing. Any wavelength past 730nm has very very little effect on flowering, ESPECIALLY IR.

You also tried to blame me for posting false SPD's awhile ago which you never fessed up to the public that you were wrong. I forgive you for that, but c'mon, let's get the facts straight here. 

I didn't invest in a $2000 SPD maker for nothing. I really wanted to get all this b.s. cleared up so that we could actually come up with REAL FACTS about spectrum, T5's, wavelength, etc.

I now know that the stretch is due to the extreme red/blue ratio in the HPS. It's like 20:1 Red to Blue in a HPS. It's either that or it's due to the abundance of yellow wavelength.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 20, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i tried to tell id throw him 20$s.... i want to see more of these graphs really i want you to test for UV from HQI halide with the glass removed or a thin layer of borosilicate between the light and plants.


I don't know what a HQI halide is. Do want me to buy a new MH to test it for you? LOL Sorry, but I won't be doing that. You are welcome to come over and bring yours. We can test it that way. 

I'm totally broke after buying this spectro thing. The only thing I will be paying for now is electricity.

Something to think about; It has been noted through my own observation that green wavelengths have been able to take on the responsibilities of both blue and red wavelengths. Green light is known to effect cryptochromes in plants which is the same thing that blue light does(the movement of plants towards light). 

Green light has also been found to be more effective at driving photosynthesis(generally red light's responsibility) in the presence of strong white light where the red light levels have reached saturation for the plant. Therefore, it is quite possible to safely assume that green light(being the wavelength right in the middle of red and blue) has the ability to take on the responsibilities of both blue and red. 

THEREFORE, it may be safe to also conclude that the actual RED/BLUE ratio of an HPS may be less than 20:1 due to the abundance of green light in there. This is just an observation, not the answer. Any opinions? Facts? Any comments(approriate) are welcome.


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## hyroot (Aug 20, 2012)

Where do you get that IR causes stretching? Its a fact that IR can control density. Somewhere in this thread I posted link to Texas A&M study on infrared lighting and the effects on plants. Cannabis is in one of the studies. The green light thing, prof, posted studies from oxford university about that early on in this thread. try reading this thread from the beginning. Im refering to 730nm - 780nm IR. Like what the coral wave has. the hortilux has low intensity of IR going from 700nm to 800nm.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 20, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Where do you get that IR causes stretching? Its a fact that IR can control density. Somewhere in this thread I posted link to Texas A&M study on infrared lighting and the effects on plants. Cannabis is in one of the studies. The green light thing, prof, posted studies from oxford university about that early on in this thread. try reading this thread from the beginning. Im refering to 730nm - 780nm IR. Like what the coral wave has. the hortilux has low intensity of IR going from 700nm to 800nm.


I've read through the thread many times over already so I guess that would be me already trying. There is a lot of misinformation in the thread so it would be nice to clear it up(for progression sake). 

The stretch of IR is shown in some other study/s. The basis is when a plant is in the shade, IR is the majority of light that is sensed by the plant and causes the stretch. I don't totally agree with it though. It's been discussed in this thread a few times as well. Should be easy enough to find.

Either way I highly doubt IR does much of anything to plants other than make them heat up. Like I said before, light beyond 730nm has very little quantum yield value. 

Also, HPS causes major stretch in pretty much every variety of Cannabis. I am willing to bet the stretch is due to the heavy abundance of yellow light and the fact that HPS are pretty much emitting only yellow light and very little blue.

What is the link to the IR Cannabis Study by A&M? That would be a good read. Didn't know Texas even cared about Cannabis. LOL You still get shot for trespassing there.


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## PetFlora (Aug 20, 2012)

Once again...

This chart suggests that providing 740_* after lights out*_ (amount of time depends on size of grow) will make the plant think it is getting more light and will continue to grow.








*Note 10/14 for flower
*


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## polyarcturus (Aug 20, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> I don't know what a HQI halide is. Do want me to buy a new MH to test it for you? LOL Sorry, but I won't be doing that. You are welcome to come over and bring yours. We can test it that way.
> 
> I'm totally broke after buying this spectro thing. The only thing I will be paying for now is electricity.
> 
> ...


i would be willing to provide the research matierials give me time i will have to collect them.

HQI halide= double ended halide often used over aquariums, but a single ended MH bulb with the outer envelope removed inside a cooltube would be the same thing. i have that, but im not gonna go sending off my cool tube and halide ballast. what i can do is build or buy a fixture off CL for cheap get a double ended bulb and a piece of borosilicate glass to send.

all together should cost me about a hundred and well worth it.... if i see the results i want.

ill see what i can do this is something ive been wanting to do for a long time.

lol come over? hmmm i dont know if thats possible, im out here with "The Bungles"


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## Dr.J20 (Aug 20, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Once again...
> 
> This chart suggests that providing 740_* after lights out*_ (amount of time depends on size of grow) will make the plant think it is getting more light and will continue to grow.
> 
> ...


so, forgive me, i'm a little baked but after looking at this chart, would 10/14 from seed work paradoxically better than 12/12 with the 740 hit for a period after lights out?


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## mrcourios (Aug 20, 2012)

Where can I find these UVL 660 T5's,they don't even show them on the uvlco web site?


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## hyroot (Aug 20, 2012)

email sales dep. [email protected] also it has already been said in several posts.... I even posted it several times over the last 6 months or so...

*
READ THE THREAD!!!!!!
*


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 20, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> Once again...
> 
> This chart suggests that providing 740_* after lights out*_ (amount of time depends on size of grow) will make the plant think it is getting more light and will continue to grow.


LOL, you don't need to post this for me. I'm well aware of this chart and I know it's for real. 740 IS NOT IR light though. It is FAR-RED. 740nm is STILL WITHIN THE VISIBLE SPECTRUM.

IR is NOT WITHIN THE VISIBLE SPECTRUM.

Do we really need to consult wiki? hehe


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 21, 2012)

Why not.

VISIBLE SPECTRUM

ColorFrequencyWavelength*violet*668789 THz380450 nm*blue*606668 THz450495 nm*green*526606 THz495570 nm*yellow*508526 THz570590 nm*orange*484508 THz590620 nm*red*400484 THz620750 nm


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 21, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> HQI halide= double ended halide often used over aquariums, but a single ended MH bulb with the outer envelope removed inside a cooltube would be the same thing. i have that, but im not gonna go sending off my cool tube and halide ballast. what i can do is build or buy a fixture off CL for cheap get a double ended bulb and a piece of borosilicate glass to send.


What is so special about boro glass? I thought all mogul lamps already had boro glass around them. Is this not true? Anyway, I already have plenty of 75mm boro tubing sitting around because I do torchwork.

Are you just trying to minimize the amount of glass used between the light source and the canopy by using the DE lamps?

So I was wrong, I am quite familiar with double ended MH aquarium lamps. It just didn't ring the bell when I read your post right away. I guess I was over tired. LOL 

So is the glass that is used in HQI lamps made of pure quartz? AFAIK ALL glass filters out the majority of UVb rays doesn't it?

PM if you need to.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 21, 2012)

http://www.hey-deals.com/Buy-2874-High+Power+100W+LED+Light+-+Neutral+White+-+SMD-Type.html

Wow, they are sure brave to say that "the light is harmless to eyes."

WTF is wrong with some people? LOL! 100w of light is going to hurt your eyes at some point. WTF!!!!!!!

Here's a spot led.
http://www.m-s-v.eu/ebizz/sh/a_einzel.aspx?SP=2&ANR=100130

Not so sure that a spot light would be good for horticulture. Would think that the beam angle would be way narrow.


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## FreeCableGuy (Aug 21, 2012)

OK, it seems that IR and UV are being carelessly confused here. IR is the "red" range beyond visible light, "higher" up on the spectrum, past 700 nm. UV is at the other end, less than 400nm, it is "purple". IR is nothing but heat, and really doesn't do anything for your plants. UV is of course a different story, and there are as many theories on UV and plants as their are different nutrients available. UV-A is relatively safe and can be used without a ton of precautions, however, it is always advisable to use eye protection (sunglasses) and skin protection (gloves, long sleeved shirt), when exposed to this type of light. UV-B and UV-C are much more harmful and should not be messed with whatsoever!


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## polyarcturus (Aug 21, 2012)

FreeCableGuy said:


> OK, it seems that IR and UV are being carelessly confused here. IR is the "red" range beyond visible light, "higher" up on the spectrum, past 700 nm. UV is at the other end, less than 400nm, it is "purple". IR is nothing but heat, and really doesn't do anything for your plants. UV is of course a different story, and there are as many theories on UV and plants as their are different nutrients available. UV-A is relatively safe and can be used without a ton of precautions, however, it is always advisable to use eye protection (sunglasses) and skin protection (gloves, long sleeved shirt), when exposed to this type of light. UV-B and UV-C are much more harmful and should not be messed with whatsoever!


please enlighten me


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 21, 2012)

FreeCableGuy said:


> OK, it seems that IR and UV are being carelessly confused here. IR is the "red" range beyond visible light, "higher" up on the spectrum, past 700 nm. UV is at the other end, less than 400nm, it is "purple". IR is nothing but heat, and really doesn't do anything for your plants. UV is of course a different story, and there are as many theories on UV and plants as their are different nutrients available. UV-A is relatively safe and can be used without a ton of precautions, however, it is always advisable to use eye protection (sunglasses) and skin protection (gloves, long sleeved shirt), when exposed to this type of light. UV-B and UV-C are much more harmful and should not be messed with whatsoever!


700nm is not IR. Note the chart I posted a little while ago. IR is what is beyond 750nm. The visible Red range is 620-750. The Latin word "Infra" translates to "beyond." Infra-red therefore refers to the wavelengths beyond 750nm. And no, it does nothing for plants. 

UVb at 280nm I believe is the exact nanometer responsible for creating Vitamin D in our skin. In lettuce, it is responsible for creating certain pigments to form as a defense mechanism to protect against the harmful rays. That pigment is healthy for us and also contains terpenes. Full of flavor and color. 

As far as weed goes, it's perhaps usable as well, but I tend to believe what I've been told and read that anything below 470nm blue has a similar action, maybe to a lesser extent, however, but still can be used to build terpenes and THC.

I wouldn't disregard the use of UVb only because it can be harmful. I would just be VERY careful with how much is used. I don't think it fits in the category "the more the merrier." I would tend to think with powerful UVb rays, less is more.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 22, 2012)

My vision is starting to get fucked up a little from all the pure blue lights *actinic* that we are using. Starting to see a black dot in the center of my vision(not floaters), more like cataract or macular degeneration. Fuckin great huh. Even though these are T5's and they seem quite weak to the eye, they are not. Blue light is very harmful to the eyes because it is very powerful. This has happened pretty fast, as I've only been using these pure blues for about a year altogether.

Probably the same reason plants respond to blue light like UVb as well, the light is powerful when it's blue. ANYWAY, USE YOUR SUNGLASSES WITH T5'S ALSO, NOT JUST MH AND HPS AND UVB AND ALL THAT OTHER SHIT. REMEMBER, T5'S WOULD EMIT 180NM UVC LIGHT IF IT WASN'T FOR THE PHOSPHOR COATING. 

Damn, makes me wish I woulda made the switch to LEDs a long ass time ago. Learn from my mistakes, don't fuck your up your vision like I did.


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## stoned cockatoo (Aug 22, 2012)

Lol that's crazy


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## hyroot (Aug 22, 2012)

Wear sunglasses in the garden. I always do. The uv and IR is bad for your eyes.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 22, 2012)

If IR is bad for your eyes, I'm pretty much fucked. I stare into my glory hole for 5 hours every day. That thing rolls at 2400 F and emits A SHIT TON of IR. I got bright light around me constantly in my hot shop.

I just know that all blue light is bad for your eyes. Don't look at it no matter how many times it calls out to you.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 22, 2012)

Well, great, we have another hazard.

http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2012-07/researchers-say-cfl-bulbs-could-damage-skin-through-uv-rays


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## PSUAGRO. (Aug 22, 2012)

^^ perfect time to upgrade the rest of my apt to Philips led ambient light bulbs ....sorry about your eyes


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## hyroot (Aug 22, 2012)

Cannabis won't kill you but growing it can.... Lolololololol


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## PetFlora (Aug 23, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> My vision is starting to get fucked up a little from all the pure blue lights *actinic* that we are using. Starting to see a black dot in the center of my vision(not floaters), more like cataract or macular degeneration. Fuckin great huh. Even though these are T5's and they seem quite weak to the eye, they are not. Blue light is very harmful to the eyes because it is very powerful. This has happened pretty fast, as I've only been using these pure blues for about a year altogether.
> 
> Probably the same reason plants respond to blue light like UVb as well, the light is powerful when it's blue. ANYWAY, USE YOUR SUNGLASSES WITH T5'S ALSO, NOT JUST MH AND HPS AND UVB AND ALL THAT OTHER SHIT. REMEMBER, T5'S WOULD EMIT 180NM UVC LIGHT IF IT WASN'T FOR THE PHOSPHOR COATING.
> 
> Damn, makes me wish I woulda made the switch to LEDs a long ass time ago. Learn from my mistakes, don't fuck your up your vision like I did.


Your eyes should recover once you stop looking at the bulbs without proper eye wear. Also, there are a number of nutrient/supplements you can take specifically for eyes. You're going to have to google though. If you need any help I can direct you


----------



## polyarcturus (Aug 23, 2012)

i didnt want to call him out over it... but fonz is right on some levels, better safe than sorry.

but your absolutely right any effect from blue light will go away after a time. i remember i would have to pick up a friend a night from work and after being in the room with the MH it was like being blind at night, i was doing it everyday so i began to think my vision was fucked up until one day i skipped a few day of picking him up and my eyes returned to normal.

really just dont look at the lights.... when it does come to IR from the HPS it is good to wear a pair of glasses tho, IR will have your eyes dry as fuck a simple barrrior between your eyes and the light should handle it though.


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 23, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i didnt want to call him out over it... but fonz is right on some levels, better safe than sorry.
> 
> but your absolutely right any effect from blue light will go away after a time. i remember i would have to pick up a friend a night from work and after being in the room with the MH it was like being blind at night, i was doing it everyday so i began to think my vision was fucked up until one day i skipped a few day of picking him up and my eyes returned to normal.
> 
> really just dont look at the lights.... when it does come to IR from the HPS it is good to wear a pair of glasses tho, IR will have your eyes dry as fuck a simple barrrior between your eyes and the light should handle it though.


You're right, I've been wearing shades for the last couple days and they've gotten better a little. I still see this black spot in the center of my vision though. The doc told me I have cataracts. They've probably been there for awhile. I dunno, is 32 years old a little young for cataracts?


----------



## polyarcturus (Aug 23, 2012)

not really my brother has cataracts since he was under 18 its not abnormal have bad vision.(hes never looked at a grow light for more than 1min total in his life probably)

my eyes have been bad, as far as farsight goes , but i dont really use shade and since ive been really good about avoiding looking at the light my vision has not really depreciated, that i can tell.


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## shredly909 (Aug 24, 2012)

Can you use an an aquarium fixture? you are using aquarium bulbs


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## hyroot (Aug 24, 2012)

shredly909 said:


> Can you use an an aquarium fixture? you are using aquarium bulbs


Yeah what ever works. If you already have it. Just the aquarium fixtures cost alot more.


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## h3lla5 (Aug 24, 2012)

Just got a T5 set with reflectors behind the bulbs. Have 3 6400 and 3 2700. This is my first grow and the girls are loving the lights so far. I got to page 15 in this and was like with 450+ pages to read I rather just ask the maestro himself . Was the outcome just as good as your HPS? I keep reading about people saying T5 flowering causes buds to be "airy". From the photos I saw your plants were beautiful and could have been in some books.


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## hyroot (Aug 24, 2012)

Prof has been MIA for quite a while. Personally mine out performed my 1000 watt. More yield att gram per watt. Denser, bigger buds, frostier. With stock 6500k and 3000k bulbs only they will be airy. Those bulbs have wasted light just like hps. The aquarium bulbs produce a better spectrum with 80% more usable light than hid. Swapping out bulbs and changing spectrum, you can manipulate plants to grow much better. The only draw back is how long the bulbs last. Average 8 months to a year. Im at a year now at this. I have had 5 bulbs burn out already. 3 are still going good. Those were redsuns and coral waves that burned out. The fijis are still going strong. Ive only had the flora suns about a few months maybe longer. Don't really remember when I bought them ....


Happy growing


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## h3lla5 (Aug 25, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Prof has been MIA for quite a while. Personally mine out performed my 1000 watt. More yield att gram per watt. Denser, bigger buds, frostier. With stock 6500k and 3000k bulbs only they will be airy. Those bulbs have wasted light just like hps. The aquarium bulbs produce a better spectrum with 80% more usable light than hid. Swapping out bulbs and changing spectrum, you can manipulate plants to grow much better. The only draw back is how long the bulbs last. Average 8 months to a year. Im at a year now at this. I have had 5 bulbs burn out already. 3 are still going good. Those were redsuns and coral waves that burned out. The fijis are still going strong. Ive only had the flora suns about a few months maybe longer. Don't really remember when I bought them ...
> Happy growing


Awesome man, what would you recommend for a 6 bulber?


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## novice11 (Aug 25, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> You're right, I've been wearing shades for the last couple days and they've gotten better a little. I still see this black spot in the center of my vision though. The doc told me I have cataracts. They've probably been there for awhile. I dunno, is 32 years old a little young for cataracts?


Mr. Fonz - please don't mess with your vision...take all steps necessary to preserve it....I know...DUHH...but still...talk to the doc and take whatever measures necessary.

Anyway, thanks so much for the spectrum analysis of the FIJI Purple and the others. Really selfless of you to put out the cash for the benefit of relative strangers.

Now I'd like your advice for my last crop of the year. I have 4 seeds germinating right now. So before they go into the dirt and under the lights....

I have 3 FIJI, 3 UVL 660, 2 UVL Red Suns, a UVL 454, a UVL 420 SA, a UVL 75.25 and a Coral Wave. The fixture is an 8 bulb 48" T5.

What would you suggest for Veg? I am willing to buy a couple bulbs if necessary.

Thanks!


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## Fonzarelli (Aug 25, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Mr. Fonz - please don't mess with your vision...take all steps necessary to preserve it....I know...DUHH...but still...talk to the doc and take whatever measures necessary.
> 
> Anyway, thanks so much for the spectrum analysis of the FIJI Purple and the others. Really selfless of you to put out the cash for the benefit of relative strangers.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the kind words. I know everyone has been waiting a long time for someone to come through. I'm actually surprised no one had come through and there is almost 500 pages of this thread. LOL

I have been running 2 of the UVL660nm and 2 of the TrueLumen 460nm in my 4-lamp fixtures and get really nice growth, but I wish there was another slot so I could put in another UVL660. A 5-lamp fixture would be ideal for me.

This is my recommendation. I know it will work very nicely. 

3 UVL 660 and 3 Fiji Purple alternated. Put the 75/25 and a Redsun right in the middle. You won't be disappointed. The bit of Tri-band light adds a lot from the 75/25. You will like this combo.

UVL660/Fiji/UVL660/75-25/Redsun/Fiji/UVL660/Fiji/

There is already more than enough 420nm light in ALL of the lamps. There is even a peak of 420 in the redsun and the uvl660 believe it or not.

Keep your fixture about a foot above your canopy and let the plants grow up to it. I wouldn't let your plants get more than a few inches close to the lights or they will burn a little if they touch the lamps. Take photos and show us how it goes for you.


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## Kite High (Aug 27, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Yeah what ever works. If you already have it. Just the aquarium fixtures cost alot more.


not really

http://www.aquatraders.com/T5-Aquarium-Lighting-s/9.htm


I utilize four of these per grow chamber as vertical supplemental side-lighting...the externally ballasted feature is a great advantage...only bulb heat to contend with in the grow area

hope it helps...great deals on bulbs as well and they have proven their merit to me


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## Lucius Vorenus (Aug 27, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Prof has been MIA for quite a while. Personally mine out performed my 1000 watt. More yield att gram per watt. Denser, bigger buds, frostier. With stock 6500k and 3000k bulbs only they will be airy. Those bulbs have wasted light just like hps. The aquarium bulbs produce a better spectrum with 80% more usable light than hid. Swapping out bulbs and changing spectrum, you can manipulate plants to grow much better. The only draw back is how long the bulbs last. Average 8 months to a year. Im at a year now at this. I have had 5 bulbs burn out already. 3 are still going good. Those were redsuns and coral waves that burned out. The fijis are still going strong. Ive only had the flora suns about a few months maybe longer. Don't really remember when I bought them ....
> 
> 
> Happy growing


Pr0fessor probably moved onto HPS long ago. LOL


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## RC7 (Aug 27, 2012)

Does anyone know what his results were for this kind of setup? what kind of yield was he getting, and is it better than HPS?


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## Lucius Vorenus (Aug 27, 2012)

RC7 said:


> Does anyone know what his results were for this kind of setup? what kind of yield was he getting, and is it better than HPS?


I've done as well as anyone. About .6 GPW without Co2. Not quite what I get with HPS but I would defintitely do another run with T5's in the future.


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## novice11 (Aug 27, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Thank you for the kind words. I know everyone has been waiting a long time for someone to come through. I'm actually surprised no one had come through and there is almost 500 pages of this thread. LOL
> 
> I have been running 2 of the UVL660nm and 2 of the TrueLumen 460nm in my 4-lamp fixtures and get really nice growth, but I wish there was another slot so I could put in another UVL660. A 5-lamp fixture would be ideal for me.
> 
> ...


Thanks so much!

Bulbs are in - 3 of the 4 have germed and they are going into soil tomorrow.

Questions - If/When the Purples go - and they are getting due - what to rep them with?

Also - I know you don't bloom under T5, but just the same - what should I swap out come Bloom time? Please note - I don't have 3 660s, I have 4, so there is an extra right now...maybe swap out the 75.25 for the Coral Wave? Maybe swap out a FIJI for a Red Sun? Or a couple FIJI for a couple Red Suns? Or a Red Sun and the other 660?

Also - not sure what most folks do, but this will be a short veg, probably 4 weeks. I have to have it all broken down by mid December - guests over holidays. Will start back up in January.


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## novice11 (Sep 2, 2012)

Where's everybody at?


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## kpmarine (Sep 3, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Thanks so much!
> 
> Bulbs are in - 3 of the 4 have germed and they are going into soil tomorrow.
> 
> ...


I ran 3 fiji purps, 3 red suns, a 75/25, and two actinics (I don't recall which.). With that I got ~4 zips from my GDP. It got me, 2 roommates, a stoner friend from colorado, and a few other smokers rather high. It was pulled at about 7 weeks, due to an issue. That grow actually turned out good enough that a friend asked for some meds, which is not my usual thing.


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## Stonefree69 (Sep 6, 2012)

okthanks2 said:


> In room #1. 8 bulb fixture with 4 of the 6500K $2 bulbs, 2 Redsuns, 2 ATI Procolor.
> 
> 
> In room #2. 8 bulb fixture with 4 of the ATI procolor, 2 Redsuns, 1 ATI blue plus, 1 UVL Super actinic. AND NO 6500K BULBS! YAY!
> ...





okthanks2 said:


> My currentbulb configuration is 4 Ati Procolor (which is still availablethrough Premium Aquatics), 2 REDSUN, and 2 Ati Blue Plus. So fareverything is looking fine. Hope this will be a good base for you tofind your own bulb configuration that works for you.


okthanks2, if the 6500Ks are producing the excellent and better results, then why are you not using them? The test results from your 1st post was on 1/6/2012 (post #2024) and on 1/9/2012 (3 days after the fact) you seem to be using the &#8220;inferior&#8221; bulbs from room #2 (post # 2164). 

I'm still listening to what the professor has to say. I'm using 8-6500k GE Starcoat T5s and from this link - http://www.gelighting.com/eu/resources/literature_library/product_brochures/downloads/t5_brochure_en.pdf they seem to not be wasting much wattage and producing the right PAR. Confusion aside, I'll look into the Red Suns, Flora Suns, Plantmax 6500K and ATI bulbs (like Blue Plus, True Actinic).

BTW I grow mainly Indica dominant.


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## acidking (Sep 17, 2012)

I've read several hundred pages of this thread, NOT THE FULL 479... one thing I'm not quite sure on, that I'm hoping someone can answer... 

Are the UVL 660nm Bulbs T5, T5 HO, or T5 VHO? Every reference to them I've run across on this thread completely fails to mention the bulb type, and of course UVL doesn't list the 660nm on their web site. I'm assuming they are T5 HO bulbs, can anybody confirm?

Thanks in advance... Trying to find anything in this thread is like trying to find a needle in a haystack, and the back and forth between some of the contributors made reading those 200+ feel like this


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## polyarcturus (Sep 18, 2012)

acidking said:


> I've read several hundred pages of this thread, NOT THE FULL 479... one thing I'm not quite sure on, that I'm hoping someone can answer...
> 
> Are the UVL 660nm Bulbs T5, T5 HO, or T5 VHO? Every reference to them I've run across on this thread completely fails to mention the bulb type, and of course UVL doesn't list the 660nm on their web site. I'm assuming they are T5 HO bulbs, can anybody confirm?
> 
> Thanks in advance... Trying to find anything in this thread is like trying to find a needle in a haystack, and the back and forth between some of the contributors made reading those 200+ feel like this


they are all about T5 HO all though some are T5 VHO but you can run VHO on HO ballast (there is verry little difference between he bulbs HO is more efficient)



jaytoker said:


> I'm sure this question has been asked before since this thread is so amazingly huge. What is the best all around bulb for both flowering and veg? If you had 2 bulbs to choose from which would you choose? Is there a bulb specifically made 50/50 red blue besides fiji cuz those are crazy expensive?
> 
> I'm a hella lazy person who likes to simplify things having a different bulb for each slot just doesn't fit my specific willingness to be arsed with that much effort. Currently have a 6 tube t5 running all 6500k's getting a new 6 or 4 tube fixture for side lighting in a 2x4x5 tent.
> 
> ...


6500k any brand will do fine and Zoomed florasun.

i personally think the 2 best bulbs are UVL aquasun and zoomed florasun and would be all you need but a lot of people would say that the 6500ks are better.


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## acidking (Sep 24, 2012)

Has anybody tried WavePoint's Ultra Growth Wave? If so, where did you get them? I can only find one place online that claims to have them, Aquatic Connection, but their customer reviews are terrible... almost to the point of customers claiming outright fraud. Combine that with per bulb prices that are almost double Wavepoint's suggested retail price of $17, and you'd have to be a fool to trust them with your CC#.

I realize that some may criticize the spike in green, but it's such a small part of the overall spectrum that I hardly think it matters. That and some studies I've read claim that a bit of green can help the plant use the Red & Blue wavelengths more efficiently.

What do you guys think? Might it be a good single bulb solution from veg to flower?


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## cannabineer (Sep 24, 2012)

acidking said:


> Has anybody tried WavePoint's Ultra Growth Wave? If so, where did you get them? I can only find one place online that claims to have them, Aquatic Connection, but their customer reviews are terrible... almost to the point of customers claiming outright fraud. Combine that with per bulb prices that are almost double Wavepoint's suggested retail price of $17, and you'd have to be a fool to trust them with your CC#.
> 
> I realize that some may criticize the spike in green, but it's such a small part of the overall spectrum that I hardly think it matters. That and some studies I've read claim that a bit of green can help the plant use the Red & Blue wavelengths more efficiently.
> 
> What do you guys think? Might it be a good single bulb solution from veg to flower?


Probably not single bulb, since I'd seek to supplement more far red. But it's very close. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. cn


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## polyarcturus (Sep 24, 2012)

cannabineer said:


> Probably not single bulb, since I'd seek to supplement more far red. But it's very close. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. cn


look at the UVL 660(email them) but yeah that company is shady and im not sure if they are in production yet if you go to the website hell you can try and email them too. but honestly, like ive said before its nothing but an over exagerated chart, the flora sun produces the same spectrum all most andis much cheaper and a little more blue dom.


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## polyarcturus (Sep 24, 2012)

it was discussed somewhere in this thread......


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## falcon223 (Sep 25, 2012)

I posted eye warnings way back there. I hope you guys are being carefully.


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## Fonzarelli (Sep 25, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> they are all about T5 HO all though some are T5 VHO but you can run VHO on HO ballast (there is verry little difference between he bulbs HO is more efficient)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been having the best luck with coralife 6700K T5s for the full spectrum. They have a heavier dose of near red and they work really well. I don't know why they call them 6700k because they have more yellow/red tint than most 6500k lamps do. Either way they've worked the best for me in combination with 660nm UVL's and 460nm Trulumens.


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## Fonzarelli (Sep 25, 2012)

acidking said:


> Has anybody tried WavePoint's Ultra Growth Wave? If so, where did you get them? I can only find one place online that claims to have them, Aquatic Connection, but their customer reviews are terrible... almost to the point of customers claiming outright fraud. Combine that with per bulb prices that are almost double Wavepoint's suggested retail price of $17, and you'd have to be a fool to trust them with your CC#.
> 
> I realize that some may criticize the spike in green, but it's such a small part of the overall spectrum that I hardly think it matters. That and some studies I've read claim that a bit of green can help the plant use the Red & Blue wavelengths more efficiently.
> 
> What do you guys think? Might it be a good single bulb solution from veg to flower?


Don't buy from that company. All they do is drop ship, so if Wavepoint doesn't have them in, which they don't, then they can't get them. Call Wavepoint if you want the latest update. But, just go with the Florasuns. They are practically identical, at least half the price, and if you want more deep red add a UVL 660nm lamp.


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## Fonzarelli (Sep 25, 2012)

BTW, ALL T5'S CONTAIN GREEN WAVELENGTHS. Can't get around it. Green is good anyway. Full spectrum is great to include in a red/blue setup.


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## falcon223 (Sep 26, 2012)

Wandering if any one, Yea you just have to wonder, what happened to the professor???? I say busted. I really hope not though. 
The INTERNET is dangerous.


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## Kite High (Sep 27, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> Wandering if any one, Yea you just have to wonder, what happened to the professor???? I say busted. I really hope not though.
> The INTERNET is dangerous.


NO JUST RIU AS IT IS A rats PROTECTING HAVEN


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## falcon223 (Sep 27, 2012)

Just saying be carefull. What is RIU???


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## polyarcturus (Sep 27, 2012)

RIU=rollitup.

there are good folks on here there are bad ones best bet is always to mind your own business unless you think A) its safe to risk it(thats basically your judgement of a person) or B) you really dont care IE your legal. or you just dont care lol


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## PSUAGRO. (Sep 28, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> RIU=rollitup.
> 
> there are good folks on here there are bad ones best bet is always to mind your own business unless you think A) its safe to risk it(thats basically your judgement of a person) or B) you really dont care IE your legal. or you just dont care lol


Exactly.........If your running large scale OPs and are NOT legal.....I would really think twice about posting pics of it anywhere on the internet(common sense).....they don't care if your running a four plant grow in your bedroom closet/lol...(except in japan/china/middle east.... wow at those laws)scary shit...


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## PetFlora (Sep 28, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> look at the UVL 660(email them) but yeah that company is shady and im not sure if they are in production yet if you go to the website hell you can try and email them too. but honestly, like ive said before its nothing but an over exagerated chart, the flora sun produces the same spectrum all most andis much cheaper and a little more blue dom.


UVL shady? How did you come this impression? The idea of 660 was promoted by Prof, who started this thread. UVL happened to be in production of a 660, but not for mmj. probably for algae though I am not certain of that specifically. I happened to contact them after Prof mentioned he was developing his own 660. (It never materialized) and he disappeared.

I got one from UVL, but did not help my plants. To the contrary, just 1/8 prolonged the finish (I finally just pulled the plants). If you are going to use it at all, it should be used in combination *with* FAR Red ala, Coral Wave, but that's a mixed bag, better left out of the equation IMHO.

I stumbled upon Profs thread early in my second grow using an 8 bulb Bad Boy + Quantum V & Flower bulbs, and ran with it. I learned a lot for sure, but I overreacted and got a wide variety of bulbs in search of the magic bullet.

Taking a page from recent developments in led (WHITE diodes), which provide a broad natural light spectrum (including the mid-band ~550-610, ignored by most led manufacturers), white is the most efficient for growing mmj. I argued for this from < midway in this thread. One of the subbers was getting excellent results using UVL Aquasuns (broad spectrum bulb), and I had 2, so I combined them during both V + B, but later added Red Lifes and finally the 660 

So, do you need the wide variety of aquarium bulbs to grow excellent mmj? NO! A combination of ZooMed Florasuns + UVL Aquasuns should be plenty good. Keep in mind, if you are growing Indicas they like 'more Blue' than Red, and vice versa. F1 Hybrids (like my cross) are a different story as there is no telling which will dominate until the plants are ~ 6 weeks old. If you know what your plants express than you can tailor the basic mix from the start with a bit more B or R but not by much ~ 10-20% max.

I have a new thread over on IC. I have 2 tents; one is my DIY Bubbler, which I used to start 8 of my F1 Sat/Indica cross seedlings. I moved the strongest 2 to my proven DIY 21st Century F & D system, under 2 HO T5s. A few days later I put the next 4 hardiest seedlings in my hpa, also under the T5. 

The 2 remaining Runts of the 8 I kept in my DIY Bubbler (4 large cylinder oxystones pumping mass quantities of oxygenated bubbles via a 900L/hr pump). At first I was using 4 @ 13 & 23w cfls (daylight and warm white). 

I am also a led enthusiast, although I got burned paying $360 for 90w ufo, which is probably only ~ 50w ~ 9:1 R/B. I believe the R is a mix of several different nms, so I added it to the cfls. but ^ 12" above to start, then slowly lowered. 

I bought the Quantum Bad By because 1 I was unsure led had come of age and 2 the high price of leds 2 years ago to cover a 2 X 4 footprint. Anyway, I added the ufo 90 to the cfls in the Runt Room/tent. The 2 Runts had an immediate growth spurt, but the plants under the BB not so much. 

At the same time I subbed to a recent RIU thread *Astir Grow LED Panel Project* which is all about *low watt* *WHITE* leds; mixing cw + nw + ww https://www.rollitup.org/led-other-lighting/563118-astir-grow-led-panel-project.html 

I mixed in an 8 watt ww screw bulb led which provided a lot of mid-band nms missing from the ufo. The Runts loved it. THEN I bought a Utilitech 7.5w led, _Day Light_, with globe (total ~ 60w) and the Runts are runts no more. They are just as tall as the 2 hardiest plants under 324w, but have much bigger primary leaves AND secondary leaves. Is the difference LED? NO. It's spectral balance based on genetics. 

*KISS DIY LED *coming soon: Where most guys are buying diodes, heat sinks, drivers... I'm going with low watt screw bulbs where all this has been done for me. I bought a bunch of parts from Lowes to make a ~ 3' fixture with 3-4 sockets + Y adapters (to double the light) and ordered 6 low watt leds from www.chinabuye.com I expect this to cover my 2 X 4 tent quite nicely. Stay tuned

If you click on Astir link you will see my latest pics posted today as well as get up to speed on how to mix light spectrums for max benefot and mnimm hassle


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## PetFlora (Sep 28, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> Don't buy from that company. All they do is drop ship, so if Wavepoint doesn't have them in, which they don't, then they can't get them. Call Wavepoint if you want the latest update. But, just go with the Florasuns. They are practically identical, at least half the price, and if you want more deep red add a UVL 660nm lamp.


No longer a 660 fan. I recommend Red Lifes (they are fine now) _*IF*_ your genetics is Sat dom wanting more red


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## polyarcturus (Sep 28, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> UVL shady? How did you come this impression? The idea of 660 was promoted by Prof, who started this thread. UVL happened to be in production of a 660, but not for mmj. probably for algae though I am not certain of that specifically. I happened to contact them after Prof mentioned he was developing his own 660. (It never materialized) and he disappeared.
> 
> I got one from UVL, but did not help my plants. To the contrary, just 1/8 prolonged the finish (I finally just pulled the plants). If you are going to use it at all, it should be used in combination *with* FAR Red ala, Coral Wave, but that's a mixed bag, better left out of the equation IMHO.
> 
> ...


PF i was referring to the company tha was selling ultra plant growth by wavepoint, i was telling him to look into UVL........


----------



## falcon223 (Oct 3, 2012)

And, the end.


----------



## Dr.J20 (Oct 4, 2012)

The end is always just a new beginning... pet, i've been away a while but this led thing you've got going is piquing my interest pretty significantly...also, keep you're eyes peeled for an upcoming 3season runl under a badboy and two fluorogrow evergreens (they've got the racehorses too, but they do run a tad hotter)..i'm going to rock an even 12 bulb alternation zoomed florasuns and some grow bulbs for veg...any recs on a 12 bulb lineup for bloom?....as for my other tent, i want that to function as a lab so if you could fill me in on what screw in LEDs your talking about i'd be much obliged...im gonna run two gals under a ufo, some big watt cfls (105 65K and 27K) and as many of those LEDs as I can lay my hands on,...thoughts? I might even try to do that lab tent as a 12/12fs 
be easy and let me know what's good
Dr.J


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## falcon223 (Oct 7, 2012)

QUOTE=Dr.J20;8085337]The end is always just a new beginning... pet, i've been away a while but this led thing you've got going is piquing my interest pretty significantly...also, keep you're eyes peeled for an upcoming 3season runl under a badboy and two fluorogrow evergreens (they've got the racehorses too, but they do run a tad hotter)..i'm going to rock an even 12 bulb alternation zoomed florasuns and some grow bulbs for veg...any recs on a 12 bulb lineup for bloom?....as for my other tent, i want that to function as a lab so if you could fill me in on what screw in LEDs your talking about i'd be much obliged...im gonna run two gals under a ufo, some big watt cfls (105 65K and 27K) and as many of those LEDs as I can lay my hands on,...thoughts? I might even try to do that lab tent as a 12/12fs 
be easy and let me know what's good
Dr.J[/QUOTE]

This has been discussed about a hundred times. All ways the the same question . What bulbs should I use.


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## captainmorgan (Oct 8, 2012)

Need some input on my first grow.Do these look like they're were they should be for day 16 of flower? 
8 lamp 4' T5 with 2 flora suns,2 aqua suns,2 red suns and 2 quantum 2700k
2' x 4' scrog screen in a cabinet.
4 plants in 5.2 gal airpots with FF soil


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## kpmarine (Oct 8, 2012)

captainmorgan said:


> Need some input on my first grow.Do these look like they're were they should be for day 16 of flower?
> 8 lamp 4' T5 with 2 flora suns,2 aqua suns,2 red suns and 2 quantum 2700k
> 2' x 4' scrog screen in a cabinet.
> 4 plants in 5.2 gal airpots with FF soil


Looking good from here. Good thought clipping those leaf tips a bit. Should help with airflow. Just to check, you do have a fan on this right?


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## captainmorgan (Oct 8, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Looking good from here. Good thought clipping those leaf tips a bit. Should help with airflow. Just to check, you do have a fan on this right?


I have a 4" inline fan with a carbon filter,air intake at bottom and exhaust at the top of the cabinet.Cleaned up most everything under the screen and have a tower fan laid on it's side blowing up through the screen.


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## kpmarine (Oct 8, 2012)

captainmorgan said:


> I have a 4" inline fan with a carbon filter,air intake at bottom and exhaust at the top of the cabinet.Cleaned up most everything under the screen and have a tower fan laid on it's side blowing up through the screen.


The one on your plants is what I was asking about. Scrog is badass, but the PM loves that dense canopy if you don't keep good circulation through it. My only suggestion would be to keep an eye on it. If it's not oscillating, then there is a potential risk of windburn. Not a guarantee though.


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## captainmorgan (Oct 8, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> The one on your plants is what I was asking about. Scrog is badass, but the PM loves that dense canopy if you don't keep good circulation through it. My only suggestion would be to keep an eye on it. If it's not oscillating, then there is a potential risk of windburn. Not a guarantee though.


Weather has cooled here so the fans are on low,what does windburn look like?
I assume PM looks like a white dust on the leaves?


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## kpmarine (Oct 8, 2012)

captainmorgan said:


> Weather has cooled here so the fans are on low,what does windburn look like?
> I assume PM looks like a white dust on the leaves?


Windburn looks like your leaves drying out, pretty much. The direct circulation over the leaves can cause it to dry faster than the plant can get water to it. It seems pretty hard to do unless you go a bit crazy with the plants.


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## falcon223 (Oct 8, 2012)

I use fans, and never had wind burn, never even herd anyone bring it up before?? And they look great.


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## kpmarine (Oct 8, 2012)

falcon223 said:


> I use fans, and never had wind burn, never even herd anyone bring it up before?? And they look great.


I got it once (I think.), it was because I left a box fan on high all day like a foot away from a plant. That's why I told him to not sweat it too much, I'm pretty sure there had to be an additional factor I missed in that instance. If it was just the fan, it would probably be more common.


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## PetFlora (Oct 9, 2012)

I had to put my fan on a timer to prevent wind drying the leaves to much


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## savage007 (Oct 13, 2012)

What's up all...been following and have a quick question. I have built this grow cabinet, well frame, my mother area is 16.5" x 34.5" x 44" and I want to use T5's, been hunting through this thread and was looking for the best unit to cover this space, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! The amount of info in this 480+ thread is almost overwhelming! LOL Thx, and I will be starting a thread myself with HP Aero, prob going to need help there too, a Lumigrow Pro 650, ect in my cabinet grow! 

Here's a few snaps, don't mean to highjack or be off topic, just a curious little fella!

Tossed is a few budz from the outdoor crop just for fun...PERFECT! Thanks in advance...I want to finish this cabinet and have her running this weekend...


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## kpmarine (Oct 13, 2012)

savage007 said:


> What's up all...been following and have a quick question. I have built this grow cabinet, well frame, my mother area is 16.5" x 34.5" x 44" and I want to use T5's, been hunting through this thread and was looking for the best unit to cover this space, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated! The amount of info in this 480+ thread is almost overwhelming! LOL Thx, and I will be starting a thread myself with HP Aero, prob going to need help there too, a Lumigrow Pro 650, ect in my cabinet grow!
> 
> Here's a few snaps, don't mean to highjack or be off topic, just a curious little fella!
> 
> Tossed is a few budz from the outdoor crop just for fun...PERFECT! Thanks in advance...I want to finish this cabinet and have her running this weekend...


How many mothers do plan on having in there?


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## savage007 (Oct 13, 2012)

I want 3-5 mothers able to supply cuts 6-8" for a SOG setup. Looking to take 20-40 cuts every 4 weeks. So i want nice size stem diameter and good size clones, few extras and take the best to go from the cloner to 12/12 under the Lumigrow...

I am trying to find a light setup for the mothers to promote the type of growth I demand to produce the clones. Fixture/bulbs, I for sure want to use T5, just unsure/trigger shy i guess...so to RUI I have come!


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## kpmarine (Oct 13, 2012)

savage007 said:


> I want 3-5 mothers able to supply cuts 6-8" for a SOG setup. Looking to take 20-40 cuts every 4 weeks. So i want nice size stem diameter and good size clones, few extras and take the best to go from the cloner to 12/12 under the Lumigrow...
> 
> I am trying to find a light setup for the mothers to promote the type of growth I demand to produce the clones. Fixture/bulbs, I for sure want to use T5, just unsure/trigger shy i guess...so to RUI I have come!


Maybe I misread your dimensions then. Are they length x width x height? If so, I'd try to make it long enough to fit a 4 foot t5 setup in there. You'd need about 24"x47" roughly for an 8 bulb T5.So it would need to be a bit wider than that. That light should have the footprint to cover you for 3-5 mothers.


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## savage007 (Oct 13, 2012)

> *Maybe I misread your dimensions then. Are they length x width x height? If so, I'd try to make it long enough to fit a 4 foot t5 setup in there. You'd need about 24"x47" roughly for an 8 bulb T5.So it would need to be a bit wider than that. That light should have the footprint to cover you for 3-5 mothers. *


Thanks kpmarine,

You read correctly, I was limited on space and that's the size the mother area ended up being. Space restricted the mother/clone partition (went with max flower area i could). So the dimensions are the usable space I have for the mothers. Just unsure what will fixtures would fit in there and provide me the proper support/growth ect. I would then ask what bulbs would be recommended, from others experiences, to load up with.


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## kpmarine (Oct 13, 2012)

savage007 said:


> Thanks kpmarine,
> 
> You read correctly, I was limited on space and that's the size the mother area ended up being. Space restricted the mother/clone partition (went with max flower area i could). So the dimensions are the usable space I have for the mothers. Just unsure what will fixtures would fit in there and provide me the proper support/growth ect. I would then ask what bulbs would be recommended, from others experiences, to load up with.


I'm not seeing how you can squeeze 5 mothers in there. Plus, you'd have to use a 2', which is not very cost-effective, and has a tiny footprint. The 2' and 4' T5 bulbs are generally the same price. I can veg 6 reasonably sized plants under a 4' with 8 bulbs, but you need at least 24"x47" just for the light. If you're pulling that many clones off each plant, you need good sized mothers. That's all going to eat some space. How much space do your mothers take up currently? For a mother plant that you could pull 8 cuts the size you want, that is probably going to be at least 1sq.ft. of canopy. In my estimation, you'd need more space.


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## savage007 (Oct 13, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Maybe I misread your dimensions then. Are they length x width x height? If so, I'd try to make it long enough to fit a 4 foot t5 setup in there. You'd need about 24"x47" roughly for an 8 bulb T5.So it would need to be a bit wider than that. That light should have the footprint to cover you for 3-5 mothers.


No you have it right. I only had said amount of space to build the cabinet in and I maximized the flower partition. That's the space I ended up with for mothers, clones will be above with a height of 26". I have found this fixture any thoughts:

http://www.aquabuys.com/p/WP01020.html

Then if that is sufficient, what bulbs do I load her with, haha "load her with". I guess I will probably have a similar set of questions for the light above the clones. I want to build a aero unit for that as well and lighting with a t5 too...

Thanks for your input, much appreciated!


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## savage007 (Oct 13, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I'm not seeing how you can squeeze 5 mothers in there. Plus, you'd have to use a 2', which is not very cost-effective, and has a tiny footprint. The 2' and 4' T5 bulbs are generally the same price. I can veg 6 reasonably sized plants under a 4' with 8 bulbs, but you need at least 24"x47" just for the light. If you're pulling that many clones off each plant, you need good sized mothers. That's all going to eat some space. How much space do your mothers take up currently? For a mother plant that you could pull 8 cuts the size you want, that is probably going to be at least 1sq.ft. of canopy. In my estimation, you'd need more space.


Oops, the double respond, I thought it deleted my first response so i re-typed it.

Currently I have no mothers, I was attempting to incorporate some of Al B. Fuct's SOG/mother/cloning techniques but in a cabinet HP aero grow. So heavy pruning of mothers, 3-5 of them was my thoughts. If I have 3 mothers in there, just under 4 sq ft, possibly under a 36" 4 bulb T5 maybe 8-10 cuts a plant gives me 24-30 cuts...20 of which would be used every 4 weeks.

The one unit i found bumbling around is 36" 156W 4 bulb, im sure theres others, could be enough for what im asking given the space restrictions I've created? Hard to say im sure but if so I could dump in the proper bulbs and be on the "path", so to say.


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## kpmarine (Oct 13, 2012)

savage007 said:


> Oops, the double respond, I thought it deleted my first response so i re-typed it.
> 
> Currently I have no mothers, I was attempting to incorporate some of Al B. Fuct's SOG/mother/cloning techniques but in a cabinet HP aero grow. So heavy pruning of mothers, 3-5 of them was my thoughts. If I have 3 mothers in there, just under 4 sq ft, possibly under a 36" 4 bulb T5 maybe 8-10 cuts a plant gives me 24-30 cuts...20 of which would be used every 4 weeks.
> 
> The one unit i found bumbling around is 36" 156W 4 bulb, im sure theres others, could be enough for what im asking given the space restrictions I've created? Hard to say im sure but if so I could dump in the proper bulbs and be on the "path", so to say.


No worries, the double post happens to us all at times. haha

It would be tight, but I have no shortage of space. So it may just be that I enjoy having more room than I need is affecting how I'm looking at this. However, you are going to need more than 156w for 3 plants, if you want a decent growth rate. If you threw in some lower or side lighting too, you might be able to pull it off that way. Maybe if you could squeeze about 4 more 36" on the sides. As far as which bulbs, I'll leave that up to those who have been playing around with the new stuff. I think for veg, people found some pretty affordable setups now.


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## savage007 (Oct 13, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> No worries, the double post happens to us all at times. haha
> 
> It would be tight, but I have no shortage of space. So it may just be that I enjoy having more room than I need is affecting how I'm looking at this. However, you are going to need more than 156w for 3 plants, if you want a decent growth rate. If you threw in some lower or side lighting too, you might be able to pull it off that way. Maybe if you could squeeze about 4 more 36" on the sides. As far as which bulbs, I'll leave that up to those who have been playing around with the new stuff. I think for veg, people found some pretty affordable setups now.


Thank you for sharing your information/experience! I will look into it further


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## kpmarine (Oct 13, 2012)

savage007 said:


> Thank you for sharing your information/experience! I will look into it further


Sadly, this thread doesn't seem to see as much traffic anymore. Hopefully someone can help you further.


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## savage007 (Oct 15, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Sadly, this thread doesn't seem to see as much traffic anymore. Hopefully someone can help you further.


Yes that I can see, I was browsing another thread last night here:
https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/545857-advanced-lighting-spectrums-t5-floro-33.html

Going to post there and see if Fonz, Pet, or another has any suggestions. Thank you again for your input! I will be starting a journal/thread here shortly when my cabinet is finished  time for a morning puff....


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## kpmarine (Oct 15, 2012)

Pet knows what's up, he should be able to assist. Throw up your thread on here when you set it up, I'm curious to see how this works out for you.


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## Fonzarelli (Oct 18, 2012)

savage007 said:


> Yes that I can see, I was browsing another thread last night here:
> https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/545857-advanced-lighting-spectrums-t5-floro-33.html
> 
> Going to post there and see if Fonz, Pet, or another has any suggestions. Thank you again for your input! I will be starting a journal/thread here shortly when my cabinet is finished  time for a morning puff....


What exactly do you need help with? I can help with spectrum questions. Doesn't look like you are receiving good help from this guy. PM of you need anything. This thread isn't really happening anymore. Lol


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## kpmarine (Oct 19, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> What exactly do you need help with? I can help with spectrum questions. Doesn't look like you are receiving good help from this guy. PM of you need anything. This thread isn't really happening anymore. Lol


Wow, dick statement man. Way to come off as a tool...


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## novice11 (Oct 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Wow, dick statement man. Way to come off as a tool...


Wow - no idea where THAT statement comes from...Fonz has been very helpful to just about everyone. Plus he bought a quite expensive spectrometer - a lot more than a few hundred bucks - on his own dime in order to publish the graphs that show which bulbs have what spectrums.

You must be new to the thread...that would be the only excuse I could think of.


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## polyarcturus (Oct 20, 2012)

novice11 said:


> Wow - no idea where THAT statement comes from...Fonz has been very helpful to just about everyone. Plus he bought a quite expensive spectrometer - a lot more than a few hundred bucks - on his own dime in order to publish the graphs that show which bulbs have what spectrums.
> 
> You must be new to the thread...that would be the only excuse I could think of.


fucking stupid.


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## polyarcturus (Oct 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Wow, dick statement man. Way to come off as a tool...



pretty stupid but not as stupid as above


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## polyarcturus (Oct 20, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> What exactly do you need help with? I can help with spectrum questions. Doesn't look like you are receiving good help from this guy. PM of you need anything. This thread isn't really happening anymore. Lol


somewhat stupid, your better than that fonz hes was only trying to help.


*@ SAVAGE007 I AM AN ACTIVE USER ON DAILY IF YOU HAVE SOME QUESTIONS FEEL FREE TO ASK. HERE OR IN A PM. 

ALSO YOU HAVE NOT BEEN ACTIVE SINCE YESTERDAY YET YOU POSTED 5 DAYS AGO DO YOU NEED HELP OR NOT?


*


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## kpmarine (Oct 20, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> pretty stupid but not as stupid as above


I was just telling indicating to fonz that his response was rude. WTF?


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## polyarcturus (Oct 20, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I was just telling indicating to fonz that his response was rude. WTF?


i agree, he was rude, you should have just said that instead of an insult. its all good man savage is just one of those trolls that like to bring up dead threads.


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## kpmarine (Oct 21, 2012)

polyarcturus said:


> i agree, he was rude, you should have just said that instead of an insult. its all good man savage is just one of those trolls that like to bring up dead threads.


True, but the high road is not for us all, at times.


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## majestic 12 (Oct 23, 2012)

Jesus the drama in here is fucking laughable ..
sounds like my Daughter and her friends when they sleep over 
and stay up till 5 am ..
and they're teenage gals.....got the point ...??


Fonz I appreciate the help my man ..
Just Grabbed a few T5 Quantum badboy hoods and a sun system designer 8 bulb
have the 4 bulbs quantums over my clones and the 8 bulb designer over my rooted 
cuts ..


These are currently with quantum 6500 and flora suns staggered every other ..
media is coco ...rooting like gangbusters in the clear cups..


With that 2 bulb configuration in mind do you think I need to add anything else 
that will actually make a difference ? It seems to be kicking ass so far ..


Take care 


and don't worry about the lil girls here with the emotional problems
they most likely havn't had mommy bring them a pop tart and getting
irritable.


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## kpmarine (Oct 23, 2012)

majestic 12 said:


> Jesus the drama in here is fucking laughable ..
> sounds like my Daughter and her friends when they sleep over
> and stay up till 5 am ..
> and they're teenage gals.....got the point ...??
> ...


Someone needed to get their post count up.


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## polyarcturus (Oct 23, 2012)

majestic 12 said:


> Jesus the drama in here is fucking laughable ..
> sounds like my Daughter and her friends when they sleep over
> and stay up till 5 am ..
> and they're teenage gals.....got the point ...??
> ...



shit maybe swap some 1000k in there but should be fine probably does kick ass. simple is better often times. maybe when you got to flower add some 660nm UVL in placr of a florasun or 2 but thats about all you would need to do to that setup.


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## polyarcturus (Oct 23, 2012)

they need to make a hand wiping emoticon.


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## Fonzarelli (Oct 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Wow, dick statement man. Way to come off as a tool...


the only reason i'm replying to your post is because i know you are a fake. you joined a few months ago and yet have 1000's of posts. poly, try reading this dumbshit's other posts before taking sides. he's an x-marine, probably got booted for "dropping the soap" one to many times in the shower. and stay the fuck out of my thread u fucking asshole(not you poly the other dumbass). but really though, why are you taking sides with this piece of shit? you should see some of the first posts that were made by them. complete nonsense to get more posts to "look cool." not working


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## Fonzarelli (Oct 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Maybe I misread your dimensions then. Are they length x width x height? If so, I'd try to make it long enough to fit a 4 foot t5 setup in there. You'd need about 24"x47" roughly for an 8 bulb T5.So it would need to be a bit wider than that. That light should have the footprint to cover you for 3-5 mothers.


he must have said at least 2 times that his cab space is only 3' foot wide for the plants. try reading his question before posting. that was the whole point, READ BEFORE POSTING fool.


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## Fonzarelli (Oct 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I'm not seeing how you can squeeze 5 mothers in there. Plus, you'd have to use a 2', which is not very cost-effective, and has a tiny footprint. The 2' and 4' T5 bulbs are generally the same price. I can veg 6 reasonably sized plants under a 4' with 8 bulbs, but you need at least 24"x47" just for the light. If you're pulling that many clones off each plant, you need good sized mothers. That's all going to eat some space. How much space do your mothers take up currently? For a mother plant that you could pull 8 cuts the size you want, that is probably going to be at least 1sq.ft. of canopy. In my estimation, you'd need more space.


again you post useless information, he said 3' not 4'. can you get that through your thick ass dickhead? is this good help? no it's not, that's why i called you out on it. damn you are so dumb. yet you decide to ridicule me before even checking first. just fucking dumb, someone should boot your ass out of here.


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## Fonzarelli (Oct 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> I was just telling indicating to fonz that his response was rude. WTF?


your responses were just plain stupid. just pointing out fact. yet you decide to be a dick anyway. that's what's up.


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## Fonzarelli (Oct 23, 2012)

kpmarine said:


> Someone needed to get their post count up.


and this isn't a dick statement? what fucking dumb

u must do a lot of nothing to sit around posting bullshit here on the web all day. joined a few months ago and already bitching at people about how you have more posts than they do. no more stupid posts you dumbshit asshole


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## Fonzarelli (Oct 23, 2012)

majestic 12 said:


> Fonz I appreciate the help my man ..
> Just Grabbed a few T5 Quantum badboy hoods and a sun system designer 8 bulb
> have the 4 bulbs quantums over my clones and the 8 bulb designer over my rooted
> cuts ..
> ...


i've found that 2-bulbs are enough for rooting cuttings. in fact, i've found 4-bulbs to be more than they can handle at times. 2 florasuns work really well for rooting.

if you want to add another bulb to your setup you could swap out one of the 6500k's for a 420nm bulb like a Coral Wave. That well stop any stretching that may be happening.


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## kpmarine (Oct 24, 2012)

Fonzarelli said:


> and this isn't a dick statement? what fucking dumb
> 
> u must do a lot of nothing to sit around posting bullshit here on the web all day. joined a few months ago and already bitching at people about how you have more posts than they do. no more stupid posts you dumbshit asshole


I was going to take the time to respond to this whole thing, then I realized that the number of fucks I give about your opinions is "none". Due to this, I am just going to say these things: If you don't like me, put me on ignore. It's super easy. Watch... I just did it to you.


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## Chimone (Oct 24, 2012)

Hmm.....looks like Ill choose this thread for my first post. New MMJ cardholder getting ready to jump into growing here.....
Its interesting. I am pretty big in the Marine Fish hobby and know lighting pretty well. I chose T5HOs and LEDs over MHs and HPS bulbs for energy cost. Both work very well for growing corals. 
Now when OP says hes using T5s im assuming youre meaning T5HOs? Normal T5s dont do much for shit other than adding some ambient light to a space. I have a couple 48" T5HO fixtures I was planning on using for vegging. Dual 54W 12000k lights combined with dual 420nm Super Blue Actinics should work well Im thinking. Blue light for veg, red for flower correct?
Thoughts?


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## polyarcturus (Oct 24, 2012)

my thought woulde be not just red for flower blue for veg. you want a full balanced spectrum, that is blue dominant for veg and red dominant for flower.

yes we are talking abot 54w T5HO bulbs.

for veg i like a mix of 10000k, 5000k Florasuns and a single 460nm truelumen bulb.

as for flower i would use a mix florasun,and UVL 660nm, and maybe one or two 10000k


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## Ninjabowler (Oct 28, 2012)

I bought a reef light from a friend and it came with reef bulbs so i tossed the light into the game without changing the bulbs. Seems like its doing great. Have you done tests between regular bulbs and reef bulbs? If you did, and took pictures you could really open some eyes with some good results. My reef bulbs are working good for now but im still wondering if i should change them out for regular. Im a hobby grower just building up so I dont know much but i would hate to throw out a good product because someone says reef bulbs dont work for land plants.


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## polyarcturus (Oct 28, 2012)

there are tons of pics on this thread and elsewhere, ive been vegging under 10000k and florasuns for a while with amazing results.


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2012)

Im selling my t5 s.im over replacing bulbs so often. Im going the inda gro route


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## Lucius Vorenus (Oct 30, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Im selling my t5 s.im over replacing bulbs so often. Im going the inda gro route



same here. except i moved my 6 8 bulb Bad Boys into a dedicated room full of 6500k bulbs and use it to veg 24-36 large plants


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## PetFlora (Oct 31, 2012)

hyroot said:


> Im selling my t5 s.im over replacing bulbs so often. Im going the inda gro route


I hear you brother. I have 2 tents going 

1. HOT5 8 bulb (but I ramp up from 2-4-6-8 during onset of flower. Then, following mother nature, during mid-flower back down to 6- 4

2. LEDs I was an early adapter (ufo 90 R:B 9:1), before studying mmj lighting , and well, overpaid ($350 for supposedly 90w), BUT, I continue to get my moneys' worth using it and supplementing it with cool white, warm white leds during veg + Repti-Sun and Basking light (halogen) during flower. 

I am totally blown away by what a combined ~ 90w can do. Here's proof


Here are pics taken last Friday. The first 3 are from led tent. It is as tall as the tallest under HOT5, and 3xs fatter than any under the HOT5 (432w), but results are strain dependent. It is not that I am disappointed with the HO T5, but bulb replacement is a consideration.


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## 2001vettez06 (Nov 15, 2012)

ok I'm updating my experience here. I had 2- 2x4 tents with T5 8 bulb fixtures. Had a really nice mix of Red sun, 6500k, Floragrow(I think that's the name, but got at PetCo and a nice general red blend, Actinic blue, and 10k bulbs. and one of the german Purples. Looking at the cast of light on walls I tried to tune it very similar to my LED's so try to mimic the color as best as possible. 

2 runs in each tent. Ok results, but after now switching to Area51 LED's in one of the 2x4 tents the results of the LED blow away the t5's. the LED's are also drawing less watts. Running two of the older AF100's ie 100x3w diodes with true draw of ~185w ea. or about 365-370 total. The T5 setup was drawing about 440w from what I recall. Where I can really tell is how nicely the nodes are stacking, and how much more even the canopy is and not as patchy as with the T5's. Buds are also looking way denser, and the T5 buds were a fair bit fluffy too. Not horrible, and if this was my only option or I spent more time refining the T5's they are a legit option, but the LED's are better IMO. Plus I had these as "extra" after upgrading my main flower room with new Area51 LEDs.

IMO the T5's are awesome veg lights and I'll use my spare bulbs and t5 fixtures for that from now on. I have the LED's I can use for all my flowering needs now. Makes me wonder what I'm missing with HID, but for me HID was not an option, or one I felt comfortable with anyway.


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## PROF XAVIER (Nov 15, 2012)

captainmorgan said:


> Need some input on my first grow.Do these look like they're were they should be for day 16 of flower?
> 8 lamp 4' T5 with 2 flora suns,2 aqua suns,2 red suns and 2 quantum 2700k
> 2' x 4' scrog screen in a cabinet.
> 4 plants in 5.2 gal airpots with FF soil[/QUOTE
> Those look great! Nice even canopy...well trained. Make sure to clear out everything under the canopy...I.e.smaller leaves and stems. Your right on track.


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## PetFlora (Nov 16, 2012)

PROF XAVIER said:


> captainmorgan said:
> 
> 
> > Need some input on my first grow.Do these look like they're were they should be for day 16 of flower?
> ...


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## captainmorgan (Nov 16, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> PROF XAVIER said:
> 
> 
> > Up until 3 days ago I was using Aquasuns on the outsides (1 &  until I compared SDGs against my other bulbs, and noted I had way too much 500-600 (you only need/want ~ 15%) for flowering. I would replace the ASs with more Red Life/Sun or 2 more Quantum 2700s
> ...


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## PetFlora (Nov 17, 2012)

Apparently, at least some strains do not react well to too much 660

A combination of Red Life/Suns + Floro Suns is preferable to them

Probably in a 3:1 ratio


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## AltarNation (Nov 17, 2012)

Sup guys... I ducked out for a bit but I'm back... catch up with me here if ya know me: *Closet 2.0: Dialed in. Back with more PAR T5's, Sannies Genetics, Earth Juice, ++ peace 
*


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## MurshDawg (Nov 19, 2012)

Where are these elusive t5 lamps? I cannot find them anywhere in my search. Can someone provide me a link? Thank you kindly.


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## PetFlora (Nov 20, 2012)

Assuming they are available, UVL 660 can be purchased at Aquarium Specialty, though for some reason it does not appear on their site

If not, you can contact UVL direct. 

They are $30 and last only 6 months. IMHO, they don't bring enough to the table to justify


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## PROF XAVIER (Nov 20, 2012)

captainmorgan said:


> PetFlora said:
> 
> 
> > Guess I should have posted a update.I was using the aqua suns while filling in the screen and shortly after that post I swapped them out for 2 UVL 660's. I cut,trimmed and hung to dry yesterday, day 57.Here's a pic from day 54.
> ...


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## v3r1t4s (Nov 21, 2012)

hey guys, Recently decided to dust off a old salt water tank fixture (tek light 6 bulb 36") and give t5 a try, already have 6 bulbs used for coral. I know I need more red, but which of my current bulbs should I keep. I've decided to just ask after researching for 8 hours and reading this thread for 6 hours more!! My eyes hurt after a couple hundred pages and countless searches. So I have: 2 x giesemann actinic+ 39w 2 x giesemann aquablue+ 39w 1 x korallen zucht Coral Light 39w (i think its this one http://www.korallen-zucht.de/en/shop/products--technology/lighting/84_t5-coral-light-39-w.html 1 x korallen zucht Coral Light Fiji Purple. I know to keep fiji, actinic, not sure if both actinic in a 6 bulb setup, worth it? get another fiji? coral light has a good par according to a thread on different t5s. but not sure. its seems like nobody uses a 6 bulb setup, everyone's config is either 4 or 8 bulb. what are everyones thoughts on my bulbs and/or optimal 6 bulb setup given current bulbs?? willing to swap for bloom. ............... sorry not sure why the text is not paragraphed.....


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## PetFlora (Nov 21, 2012)

First are the bulbs/fixture HO? If not growth and yield will be smaller, but go with what you got is my motto.

Don't know the color spectral balance of these, but look at a normal grow bulb spectrum (~ 6500) and use it as a base line to determine what bulbs to blend for veg. During flower you want to slowly ramp up more and more red until you have 1/6 blue-ish + 5 red


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## v3r1t4s (Nov 21, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> First are the bulbs/fixture HO?


 Sorry, I forgot to mention, it is an HO fixture and bulbs. Thanks for the reply! I get the idea of spectrums, more going for an opinion on current bulbs i have, and ideal setup to strive for. But I'll tell ya, those redder spectrum bulbs seem to be very difficult to find here up north on the west coast. And nobody wants to carry 36" bulbs! Guess I might have to order and pay through the teeth on shipping.


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## v3r1t4s (Nov 21, 2012)

the only bulb without a chart is the Coral Light. the other charts are http://www.aquaristik.giesemann.de/588,2,POWERCHROME aquablue plus,.html? Giesemann Lichttechnik - http://www.aquaristik.giesemann.de/587,2,POWERCHROME T-5 actinic-plus ,.html? Giesemann Lichttechnik - and of course the nobody really knows for sure graph of fiji purps http://www.practicalcoralfarming.com/images/t5lighting/giesemann fiji purple.jpg ps - I though I might add, the idea for this adventure is to replace a pro grow 260 in current setup. It has done well, but scrog is the next thing to tackle and I though the the 3' long t5 fixture that fits exactly in the space would give better light distribution, can anyone compare t5 ho to a pro grow 260????


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## Fonzarelli (Dec 12, 2012)

MurshDawg said:


> Where are these elusive t5 lamps? I cannot find them anywhere in my search. Can someone provide me a link? Thank you kindly.


They are deep, deep inside your mind within the gaps you call "empty space."


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## Fonzarelli (Dec 12, 2012)

v3r1t4s said:


> and of course the nobody really knows for sure graph of fiji purps


Oh no! Not again, LOL! 

I couldn't handle the tension anymore and just HAD to find out the REAL spectrum of the Fiji Purple T5's so I bought a $2000 spectrometer JUST to find out that spectrum. Now that I have the spectrum of the Fiji, I might as well throw out the spectrometer.......LOL

J/K, yeah, take a look back here and you will find what you seek.


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## Fonzarelli (Dec 12, 2012)

PetFlora said:


> IMHO, they don't bring enough to the table to justify


I will strongly disagree with this statement. Only because the benefits I have received from using them. The LS strain I've had going for the last I don't know how many months are soaking up that 660nm light like a sponge. I've tried the 630nm light with the LS and it doesn't even touch the benefits I've gotten from the 660nm wavelength. 

I don't know how you are using the 660nm, but I wanted to say to not disregard the 660nm just because they haven't worked quite right for you, which could be due to the "other colors" you have chosen to run side by side with the 660nm.

I'm not "at one" with the english language right now so bare with me a little bit. LOL

The point I'm trying to make is for example, just because the 660nm doesn't seem to work well with your strains, which last time I was aware you were growing Indicas and they like a more red heavy spectrum. The 630nm work better for Indicas I think because they push the red spectrum "harder" than the 660nm in available photonic energy whereas the 660nm push photosynthesis more. What I'm trying to say is the 630nm wavelength will shift the overall color of the light to the red side more than the 660nm giving your Indica's a "redder" spectrum using fewer lamps, BUT, the 660nm will drive photosynthesis better than 630nm and still keep a "blue heavy" spectrum that Sativa's like such as my LS(Lemon Skunk).

I know this is probably confusing for you and everyone else so take it easy on me after I post this. I can try to clarify later, but to simplify, 630nm DOES work very well with Indica's because they love a red heavy color spectrum. I ask you to try using 660nm lamps and create a blue heavy spectrum and try some Sativa's. You will see what I'm getting at.

I don't think there is a point in using the 660nm with Indica's when using T5's. Led's will be a different story because you can fine tune the spectrum with using many more light sources. When you only have 4 to 8 slots open in a T5 fixture, lamp choice becomes extremely delicate.

I will tell you what has been working quite well for me in the T5 world for Sativa's. Blue/660nm/Blue/660nm. Adding a Florasun or 2 in there has really boosted shit due to the completion of the spectrum perhaps, but either way I've tried to use 630nm redsuns and the redsuns just don't do shit compared to the 660nm for the Lemon Skunk.

630nm will push the red spectrum for your fixture, but 660nm will push photosynthesis harder, but if you don't get the balance of light color to the red side for an Indica you will see weaker growth. Not sure if my Sour diesels are Indica dominant, but they don't like the 660nm/blue/660nm/blue with or without Florasuns because they prefer a yellow/red/orange dominant spectrum and prefer MH hortilux blue which is mostly yellow/green/orange and that 630nm color you like so much. The Sour diesels do very well under the MH hortilux blue but don't do well under the T5's unless i throw in some 630 like the coralife 6500k whatever the fuck they are called that have a lot of 630nm and orange/yellow/green in them.

Fuck, I know I'm not putting the words together well, but I'm really sucking right now. A big fat F for me in my compositional drafting. LMAO


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## PetFlora (Dec 13, 2012)

I think this pretty much says what needed to be said 

_I don't think there is a point in using the 660nm with Indica's when using T5's._ _630nm will push the red spectrum for your fixture, but 660nm will push photosynthesis harder, but if you don't get the balance of light color to the red side for an Indica you will see weaker growth._

Now, 660s cost >$30 per AND only last ~ 6 months. That's too rich for my blood, at least for the potential ROI. Add to this, most genetics are hybrid, and you begin to see the problem. The good news is you can buy a couple and use them sparingly to get more out of them


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## gagekko (Jan 31, 2013)

This is an awesome thread with ALOT of info. I'm not trying to be lazy but 488 pages is a bunch of info to go through. I have a 12 lamp T5 and I would greatly appreciate it if someone could tell me what bulbs would be best for flower? I see the 660's and while steep, I wouldn't mind supplementing a couple of bulbs if it is worth it - but not all 12! LOL....

But if someone doesn't mind, a "optimal" t5 list for a 12 bulb would be appreciated


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## PetFlora (Jan 31, 2013)

Fonzarelli said:


> I will strongly disagree with this statement. Only because the benefits I have received from using them. The LS strain I've had going for the last I don't know how many months are soaking up that 660nm light like a sponge. I've tried the 630nm light with the LS and it doesn't even touch the benefits I've gotten from the 660nm wavelength.
> 
> I don't know how you are using the 660nm, but I wanted to say to not disregard the 660nm just because they haven't worked quite right for you, which could be due to the "other colors" you have chosen to run side by side with the 660nm.
> 
> ...


I get you. I have modified my 660 position to reflect strain preferences. However, I did use a combination of 660 and Coral Wave for flower with my Sat dom crosses. I can't say it added any significant weight to the final tally

Also, at least with T5s the life expectancy of 660 is max 3 flowerings, @ $30+ a pop. SOooooooooo, this would be a good place to use leds as pontoons, ala IndaGrow

Lsst grow, I flowered with 2 FloraSuns + 2 Red Lifes + one 660 + one Coral Wave. I was not unhappy with either yield or quality


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## PetFlora (Jan 31, 2013)

gagekko said:


> This is an awesome thread with ALOT of info. I'm not trying to be lazy but 488 pages is a bunch of info to go through. I have a 12 lamp T5 and I would greatly appreciate it if someone could tell me what bulbs would be best for flower? I see the 660's and while steep, I wouldn't mind supplementing a couple of bulbs if it is worth it - but not all 12! LOL....
> 
> But if someone doesn't mind, a "optimal" t5 list for a 12 bulb would be appreciated


First, get 3 @ 4 bulb. It's plenty hard to reach half way under an 8 bulb to swap or replace a bulb when you have a bunch of plants in there. 
Second, it is easier to drop led light strips in between


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## gagekko (Jan 31, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> First, get 3 @ 4 bulb. It's plenty hard to reach half way under an 8 bulb to swap or replace a bulb when you have a bunch of plants in there.
> Second, it is easier to drop led light strips in between


Thanks... I kinda thought the same thing - hindsight and all that :/ I'll put my 12 bulb on ebay and get the 4 bulb... So what bulb ratio do you recommend? It seemed to work decent with regular 6500k but Id like to stick with T5 and maximize it's usage.


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## PetFlora (Feb 1, 2013)

There is no perfect blend. As I mentioned, each strain has it's own preference. 

READ through the last ~ 20 pages of this thread, or Club T5 and draw your own conclusions


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## canadian1969 (Feb 7, 2013)

Anyone care to make recommendation on a 4' 8 bulb panel? I'm looking to purchase one for say a 2x4 or 5x5 tent. I will order the bulbs separately, just not sure what manufacturer to go with for the fixture. 
What sized panel gives you the best bang for your buck these days?


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## PetFlora (Feb 7, 2013)

Go with 2 @ 4 bulb fixtures


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## Kite High (Feb 7, 2013)

canadian1969 said:


> Anyone care to make recommendation on a 4' 8 bulb panel? I'm looking to purchase one for say a 2x4 or 5x5 tent. I will order the bulbs separately, just not sure what manufacturer to go with for the fixture.
> What sized panel gives you the best bang for your buck these days?


http://www.aquatraders.com/48-inch-4x54W-T5-Aquarium-Light-Fixture-p/52305.htm external ballast $99 shipping included


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## Kite High (Feb 7, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> Go with 2 @ 4 bulb fixtures


I agree and would go with two of the above...I have 4 of the same company's dual lamp fixtures and they are outstanding


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## canadian1969 (Feb 8, 2013)

Bummer, out of stock. I did read that these run hot, just saw some other posts when I searched the brand. Anyone heard of the drop in converters? There are T5 HO lamp strips that fit to T8 panels. So in theory I could take an old T8 4 lamp unit and pop in the converter with a T5 HO bulb and away I go. I am skeptical, but this may be a way to save some coin.



Didn't think to ask this earlier, but can you mix or change the T5HO bulbs with the various wattage's (24,39,54) or are the panels built for only one wattage?


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## Kite High (Feb 8, 2013)

canadian1969 said:


> Bummer, out of stock. I did read that these run hot, just saw some other posts when I searched the brand. Anyone heard of the drop in converters? There are T5 HO lamp strips that fit to T8 panels. So in theory I could take an old T8 4 lamp unit and pop in the converter with a T5 HO bulb and away I go. I am skeptical, but this may be a way to save some coin.
> 
> View attachment 2516418
> 
> Didn't think to ask this earlier, but can you mix or change the T5HO bulbs with the various wattage's (24,39,54) or are the panels built for only one wattage?


Here you go with digi timer built in. My twins work fine. 
http://www.aquatraders.com/48-inch-4x54W-T5-Aquarium-Light-Digi-Timer-Fixture-p/52325.htm


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## intenseneal (Feb 8, 2013)

^^^ That is the lighting I am using right now only I am using the 36" not the 48", works great. The timer is nice to have and only 1 power cord to run the light.


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## 3 Pounds of Weeden (Feb 8, 2013)

I really think if you just stay within these ranges, your plants will love them. It's just photosynthesis I don't understand why some people think cannabis is this "against the grain" plant. Simple biology.


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## Djengo (Feb 8, 2013)

that is awesome! what is the cost of those lights? all you have to do is put them up close to the plants


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## mrtoad25 (Feb 10, 2013)

Besides that uvlu website these red sun t5s are out everywhere. Is there another brand that makes close to that t5 color.


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## canadian1969 (Feb 10, 2013)

What kind of lumen coverage per square foot are we talking with these T5HO's?


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## PetFlora (Feb 10, 2013)

At least with my Quantum Bad Boy, which uses one reflector per every 2 bulbs, there is not enough coverage beyond the fixtures size to talk about, PLUS, you keep the bulbs within inches from the canopy


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## canadian1969 (Feb 10, 2013)

So as much as you can fit directly under the lamps? I was looking at the Quantum bad boy and wouldn't that add up to something like 30,000 lumen with 8 lamps? (not sure what the output is on the bulbs) Guessing thats more than you need for the limited coverage? Or do you just go for the max with the T5 HO's and not worry about it as it's not going to burn the plants?


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## PetFlora (Feb 10, 2013)

Come by my thread to see it in action. You will probably get answers to questions you haven't yet thought of

The clones have outgrown the smaller tote. I moved them into the large tote so they can be separated and get more light below the canopy


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## canadian1969 (Feb 11, 2013)

You'll have to give me a link, I clicked the flood journal, but seems you are using LED's.


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## shaun2000 (Feb 11, 2013)

pr0fesseur said:


> View attachment 1101487View attachment 1101488View attachment 1101489View attachment 1101490View attachment 1101491
> So when i decided to grow i started with a 400W hps and MH conversion bulb. I put up my tent and it was problem after problem. With the generous help from the people here i decided to throw away my setup and start from scratch. I purchased the Quantum Badboy 8 lamp T5. I started with the standard 6500k bulbs with some success. I wanted to buy an LED light but didnt have the money. So... i was at my buddies house and he has a LARGE aquarium and he showed me his bulbs..it clicked.. corals need light too and his lights produced the EXACT spectrum corals need to live and are capable of penetrating 3'+ of water. well corals and plants are very similar as they use the EXACT same light spectrum. Digging deeper i found bulbs that produce 410-460nm and 620-660 nm light.. That is also Exactly what LEDs put out..now putting one plus one together i decided to do a small test.. i bought 2 2' t5 lights ATI AND UVL Blue plus and Super Actinic. Explosive growth followed. i couldent believe my eyes. I was told on 4 different forums that actinic bulbs DO NOT WORK FOR plants boy were they really wrong!. i ahve since gone 100% T5 with various bulbs producing only yhe light spectrum that plants need. As you can see my plants are doing AMAZING for being grown with Actinic bulbs.2 of my bulbs are missing as they were broken upon arrrival. I will be changing out some of the blue bulbs with the deep red ones i found for flowering..they produce ONLY 630-660nm light. no other spectrum so i get 100% PAR. top that with MH...now i know what your thinking these lights are not bright at all... well its not about lumens.the human eye response isView attachment 1101463photosynthetic is View attachment 1101468, so your eyes do not see ALL the light these bulbs output. hardcore believers will flame me but let the math and the facts be known.HPS BULBS View attachment 1101469 Anyone notice a pattern here???? Lumens are not the ending factor to bud growth or you could not grow with LED. my sample grow i netted 1oz on a plant with only 116w. If your still in disbelief consider this, chect the spectrum charts for your coveted 3000k bulbs and overlay it with your chlorophyll response charts.. youll notice MOST of the light these bulbs prodice is outside the chloraphyll A+B peaks... now place the spectrums of my lights and overlay them...100% match.. seems to me im doing something right?



Im Going to Reply Briefly, I love LEDS and think its amazing, but. (There is always a but). Imm Wondering (Havnt checked all your data) If the lights are good enough, Alot Of Companys that Sell LEDs For growing Also Sell aquarium lights. Now If the aquarium lights where good enough for growing then why would they sell 2 types of lights. (Water and air growing.) There is obv a differnce in the lights, weather it be The Light bands, PAR intensity ect. I dont know but it made me t hink..

Also im well aware of the difference between PAR and LUX. And im guessing so do the company's that make these types of lights. 

My Thoughts is this, While The aquarium lights "may" and proberly will grow Something , i highly doubt that they would perform Very well Against an LED Specialy built for Growing weed or any plant.


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## canadian1969 (Feb 11, 2013)

I disagree, benefit of LED is low power consumption and VERY specific wavelengths. Problem is cost.

With the T5 HO variety you can attain or dial in desired wavelengths through various lamps, spectral output being whatever they designed the lamp to do, which is why some flouros are great and others not. I thought the whole point of this thread was to exactly demonstrate the differences. Or in other words how you can PAR grow without LED's. Capital cost savings are better, although lamps are consumables. While not as energy efficient it's still way better than HPS, plus nearly zero heat.

What T5 HO's do is allow you to tune your spectrum without the need to invest in expensive LEDs. Ultimately we will all be growing under LED's, but cost is prohibitive. I did a parts list from an electronic supply here last year with an array of 1 watt LEDs, thinking build it myself. When you buy all the stuff you need it's very expensive. I think those cheap LED units aren't really giving you high quality LED's, but I can't tell without taking it apart. There was no way I could do 90 watts for $150, unless of course you were buying truckloads of materials. (I think that's what they were selling for back then).

(How hot do those little 90w UFO LED units run? just curious, wondering how warm the ballast gets and fan noise)

Anywho, if anyone has hard data I am willing to put together a cost benefit analysis. Could be an interesting project. PM me if at all interested I guess. I think most people with T5's will already know this and probably don't care, but an analysis may be beneficial to new readers? It's been some time since I was originally sub'd to this thread, maybe it's already been done somewhere back in the 100+ pages.


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## PetFlora (Feb 11, 2013)

canadian1969 said:


> You'll have to give me a link, I clicked the flood journal, but seems you are using LED's.


Clones were moved under the 4ft @ 4 bulb HOT 5 last week, but I have grown very successfully under HOT5, too, using only Quantum Grow bulbs.

Currently using 2 UVL Aquasun + one Wave Point Coral Wave + one ZooMed Florasun. 2 more slots open- one for another Florasun and one for a UVL 660, which I use only during the last 2 weeks because A) it doesn't last long... B) it's expensive and... C) as long as I have ample 600-640, the 660 isn't crucial

The problem for me with T5s is the mercury, and the cost/bulb. They do not last the 20K hours, so maybe 4 grows to still have 85% bulb life.

At > $20/bulb, it doesn't take that long to match the cost of leds

*LEDs

*I have been a student of led tech since buying a ufo 90 (R/B ~ 8:1) some 3+ years ago. On it's own, not much to talk about, BUT, when supplemented with screw bulb leds, it brings it home. Clearly, monochrome actinics is not the be all end all as was/is hyped. If it was, hps bulbs would not flower as well as they do. 

All spectrums (sans 420) are integral, the key is to know the correct ratios of each to one another (and when to employ them). Each strain will respond slightly better/worse to one or the other.

LED growers know that mmj only needs ~ 18% blue throughout, and a hell of a lot more 500-600, as well as a broader range of red, lots of 600-640. 

Due to the incredible advancements in WHITE chip/diode tech, MMJ will grow quite nicely under a combination of NW (~18%)+ WW, and _maybe _some 730-780 on a separate fixture/switch to be used during flower (that is why I use a Wave Point Coral Wave in my HOT5)

Some are now experimenting with security flood lights, which are available in 10-20-30-50... 100w) + choice of NW or WW @ ~ $30-100). NOW, all watts not created equal...

Barely 2 years ago we were lucky to get 1 watt diodes with 80/ lumens per watt. Today we have 100+ l/w (150 l/w shipping now). Meaning? 80watts today does the same job as 100 watts only a couple years ago


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## canadian1969 (Feb 11, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> LED growers know that mmj only needs ~ 18% blue throughout, and a hell of a lot more 500-600, as well as a broader range of red, lots of 600-640.
> Due to the incredible advancements in WHITE chip/diode tech, MMJ will grow quite nicely under a combination of NW (~18%)+ WW,


As it will for standard florescent in those same warm and natural whites. Depends on the LEDs obviously. The original spec from NASA only called for a two wavelengths (b/r) Cant recall the exact diode wavelengths, but we know roughly. 

On the 500-600 range....Well that is just the point right there, is it not? The plant doesn't effectively use the (lets say) 525-625nm range (all yellow and green). So any lamp you buy that spends energy excessively in that range is a waste of money. Energy not efficiently utilized by the plant. Precisely what we want to avoid by training our spectrum with either LED's or HOT5's. Otherwise just put in a bunch of full spectrum bulbs, but it's wasteful energy wise. I played around with adding in UV and adjusting blue and red up/down depending on stage of growth in an ad hoc fashion, but T5HO seems to be the way to go. I have no interest in induction lighting and am still skeptical on the pricing of LED panels. We would need to see how many harvests it takes to break even on LED versus T5HO assuming same coverage.

What would you replace a 4' x 8 lamp HOT5 with in terms of LED panels?

Where are you buying the HOT5 bulbs again? I need to source them up here and bet pricing is higher.


(indirectly related)
Someone mentioned LUX and PAR earlier, hopefully some will fine this article useful. http://www.lumigrow.com/demystifying-lumens-lux-par/


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## PetFlora (Feb 11, 2013)

*HO T5 bulbs*, try Fosters and Grant, they offer free shipping over X dollars, not sure what if any extra charges toCanada

*LEDs*, the game is changing so fast, I would not buy a commercial grow fixture. The flood lights seem like an excellent option, even over DIY. 

Lets say you want replace an 8 bulb HOT5 (432w) but with LEDs. First it isn't w/w as current led watts are >90 lumens/w. 5 floods @ 100w should easily cover the 2 X 4 area and probably 4 X 4. 

Put one in each corner aiming towards one in the center. The corners could be single 100w WW chips while the one in the center NW could be > 120 w (double chip floods), or some variation. Price ~ $500 vs a 500w led panel > $1500-2000. Should something happen to a large led panel, you have to pack it up and send for repair; if something happens to a single flood, you can keep on growing while you await repair. 

I have had excellent result (~ comparable) using ~ 80 led watts vs 324 HOT5 watts, whose bulbs were in their 3rd go round. Pics in my completed journal on IC, _AND,_ the LEDs harvested ~ 7 days sooner.

In reality you probably only need 300 w of quality led flood light (~ 120* angle reflector) to better 432 carefully selected HOT5 watts. So 4 led floods @ 50w and one at 120w SHOULD be killer. Barring even newer more efficient floods (at similar pricing), I will do this, but not as soon I would like. However, I am upping my screw bulb led game, adding another vanity fixture and more bulbs

In HOT5 bulbs you need 8 quality aquarium bulbs to cover a 2 X 4 area @ $22= $176 + at least 4-6 others for flower ($264/$308 + fixture, my BB was $280). I am guessing bulb intensity ~ 75% after 4 grows.

And then there's the disposal issue, which in USA, they fall under Hazardous Materials, and must be disposed of at specific locations


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## Mattemil (Feb 11, 2013)

I am new to T5ho growing, I just got a 2 foot 8 bulb and have been reading the heck out of this thread.I would really like to give these bulbs a try but am having a hard time sourcing a site to order from to Canada.Also, it appears it is a bit hard to find some of the bulbs as I have a 2 foot fixture and most seem to be for the 4 footer.Does anyone with a two foot fixture have any info to pass on of a good bulb combo?

My plan is to veg with the bulbs it came with and try this for flowering.


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## mrtoad25 (Feb 12, 2013)

Mattemill I'm using 4 marine glo 2foot bulbs and 4 6500k bulbs for veg. My plants are loving them. I picked the marine glo at an aquatics store. I guess Hagen makes it or glow. I have a thread and it shows my lights and plants take a look.


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## mrtoad25 (Feb 12, 2013)

Here is my Thread. https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/623246-first-time-grow-what-do.html


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## DIYer (Feb 20, 2013)

So I've been reading a lot of leds without leds, 100+ pages, love it, and wanted to ask folks their opinion. I got my start as a micro grower, and the community is always close to my heart. I've grown up, but still like to think of improvements i could help others i know make. I know a few micro growers that can pull an oz or two from only four 23w cfls. Yields are restricted with the canopy only being the footprint of the box though (say 8"x18"), and even with a tall case we know the par output of cfls are what they are, even 1" from plant tops the entire grow. We know there are better ways to pay for a watt now. And, more recently in my life I've had so much success with my own vertical grow when i realized how much bigger i could make my own canopy going vert. So, I'm picturing a 2 plant vert grow in a 27x8x18 tall PC tower, with better lights than cfls, boom, both problems solved. 
I'm sure the increase in overall canopy, and more PAR, would make for more yield, and better meds. Penetration problem solved also with T5's running the entire height of the grow. 

So, keeping in mind only 92W of cfl is what I've found to be the average to attain the aforementioned yields in said 18"x8" footprint, what kind, and how many, 24" T5 bulbs would you vertically put into such a space?... Or wouldn't you at all? ha!

At first i was thinking like two 24" T5's mounted vertically right down the center, a plant on either side, protected from the heat of the bulb. A mini vert grow. But then i thought how little penetration would be a problem and got to wondering if i could also incorporate my love for perpetual growing into this as well. If the strain grown was auto flower and under 24/7 light anyway (like a lot of micro growers do) what if i made one side of the case more for flowering and one more for veg? I'm wondering if putting the T5's vertically on the outsides of the two plants in the case would be better. Say a UVL Red Sun on one side for the plant flowering most, and a Fiji Purple on the other side for the one not as far along. I'm not sure which would be best if only going with two, or if one can even get a ballast to power only two 24" T5's so ill stop rambling now 

Thoughts?


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## canadian1969 (Feb 21, 2013)

Well, there is a separate sub-forum for micro grows which I find incredibly useful in terms of how people have _MacGyvered _stuff into small spaces like cabinets, dressers and PC cases. LED would be the logical solution in a micro grow, not T5 HO, IMHO. There is a DIY LED thread on another board that was done inside a PC case (full tower). If you don't want to build the LED panel yourself there are plenty of small panels available retail. Tube floro would just take up too much space, even vertically. I could see what you are talking about being done in a grow tent 2'x2'x6', with four individual vertical tubes in the corners as supplemental light to an overhead 2' x 4 lamp T5HO panel. Can't see getting more than one plant going though. You may not need the vertical with the 4 lamp overhead, it's an interesting idea. I have seen lots of closet grows with vertical floro, but that's normally old T8 with full spectrum or warm whites. I believe the term is ghetto grow, not that I'm an elitist or anything. Whatever works and doesn't burn the place down, right? You should start a journal and demonstrate how it can be done in the microgrows forum.


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## DIYer (Feb 21, 2013)

Thanks for the reply. Sorry if this is the wrong place for this ultimately. I do plan to journal it, definitely want to see how much less watts i can go with and still fill a 8"x18" canopy, like if done right 4 23w CFLs can do to the tune of an oz or two. But i do have a question i thought might be pertinent, although i did ask it in a long winded manner. Sorry for that too.
the question: If you could only go with two 24w bulbs, what 2 bulbs would you choose to grow with from start to finish?

That's roughly half the watts, but im betting from what I've read way more than 2x the PAR vs 2700k cfls. We all train plants govern to our lights so im not sure i see any different in a vert formation. Some might even say less plant maintenance is needed in vert.

Tks in advance


Peace


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## canadian1969 (Feb 22, 2013)

Wondering is anyone has some comments on the following product


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## Kite High (Feb 22, 2013)

canadian1969 said:


> Wondering is anyone has some comments on the following product


Junk. 8 watts!!! Lol


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## canadian1969 (Feb 22, 2013)

You can get 13 watt 2' units too, just haven't seen them on ebay, How many watts do you think an 2' LED light strip should pull?
4' ones are 26 watts / 1200 lm on a 4x4' panel would be 104 watts / 4800 lm. All PAR.

Specification(from another source) same type of product T8 LED grow bar/tube.

Product length: 2Feet /4Feet

Wavelength (nm): Red 650-670nm,Blue 450-460nm
Led ratio: 8R1B

Power: 13W/26W
Led Quantity: 24/48Pcs
PPFD: 10cm 42-45 &#956;mol/(sec &#13217 
20cm 20-25 &#956;mol/(sec &#13217

Led Angle: 140°

Thermal type: Al Cast

Working Temperature: -30-50°C

Input Voltage: 100-240VAC(50-60Hz)

Life Span: +30000Hours

I have seen some 4' 10 and 18 watt models as well, Lumens seem to be between 1200 and 1500 per tube.
I mean if you already had the T8 fixtures which you can find anywhere, then why not? Certainly seems like a vertical supplement option as DIYer was talking about. low power, par and can be found in 2' lengths.


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## DIYer (Feb 22, 2013)

Hey I thought we had passed the point of laughing at low wattage, it's all about the PAR right? Or is it the photosynthetic photon flux density?  Thanks for the link canadian, i see what you're driving at now. Of course it brings another question to mind. If the T8 LED tubes you linked are "All PAR" those tubes put out 46 PAR per watt (if thats even right to say). So do we (and when i say 'we' i mean anyone else) know the useable PAR output from a 23W 2700K CFL? I'm trying to wrap my wee lil brain around the math so i can compare PAR of the 4 CFLs normally used to what 2' tubes ill be buying so i know how many i'll need.

Peace


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## DIYer (Feb 22, 2013)

I just realized you don't even need a ballast with those i dont think,.. is that right? You can wire them right to a 120v outlet?


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## canadian1969 (Feb 22, 2013)

Yeah, I didn't have the energy, lol
Unless you have the spectrograph of the light you will have to go with luminous efficacy or lm/w, but you are right its all 100% useable light to the plant, no energy waste. Proximity and surface area coverage are variables.
Yes some of those don't need ballasts, you can get them in just about any configuration, just not on ebay. I'd start selling the better ones if I thought there was a market.


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## BLAZEDVET (Mar 12, 2013)

+REP- I just got my 4' 8 lamp T5, (4) 3000k and (4) 6400k. I just looked up all of the lights and will be getting these very soon. I'll just use the 3000k for my side lights. This is such an awesome and encouraging thread. Thanx pr0f!


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## Fonzarelli (Mar 19, 2013)

DIYer said:


> Hey I thought we had passed the point of laughing at low wattage, it's all about the PAR right? Or is it the photosynthetic photon flux density?  Thanks for the link canadian, i see what you're driving at now. Of course it brings another question to mind. If the T8 LED tubes you linked are "All PAR" those tubes put out 46 PAR per watt (if thats even right to say). So do we (and when i say 'we' i mean anyone else) know the useable PAR output from a 23W 2700K CFL? I'm trying to wrap my wee lil brain around the math so i can compare PAR of the 4 CFLs normally used to what 2' tubes ill be buying so i know how many i'll need.
> 
> Peace


We are passed that point. But what's even more important is spectral balance. If you don't get the balance right, your plants are going to exhibit some strange growth. Ya really gotta play with the lights and your plants to see what works best for you and them.

Sure T8 led tubes are going to work if you do it right. Might even work well for a little grow. You're not going to get any trees growing with them however.

I think you could get a good grow mixing T5's and these T8 led tubes if used the correct colors.

You could try some Flora Suns and then some 630nm/660nm T8 tubes if you wired up your own fixture. The led tubes have their own driver built into them so make sure not to run those tubes off the T5 driver or you will fry something out. Do it yourself and get some barebones retrofit kits.


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## Fonzarelli (Mar 19, 2013)

If you guys haven't already seen this website, it's an alright one even thought the author is kind of a jerk he still has a few useful things to say. One thing he talks about is gene expression through wavelength control. Check it out if you will.

sevengens.com

here is where he talks about gene expression through wavelength control

http://sevengens.com/id75.html and here,

http://sevengens.com/id110.html


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## 3 Pounds of Weeden (Mar 19, 2013)

Can a mod pin this thread for all fluro growers? I find this thread very beneficial, and I can never seem to find it (even through the search engine) when I need to reference this lighting system.


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## mangiferasativa (Apr 10, 2013)

Hey guys, a noobie here planning to get this kind of set up.

Im just wondering if Solarmax can be considered a smart choice?

ATI, Fiji, and UVLs are not available here in my country plus im trying to minimize my overall fixture cost..

So do you think Solarmax T5HO actinic bulbs can do the trick?


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## BLAZEDVET (May 3, 2013)

I would've included my T-5 grow here, but it appears the interest has been lost some what. So I've started my journal here. 

Thanks to ALL of you guys who've been here from the beginning. Special shout out to Pet Flora, hyroot, Lucius Vorenus. IMO you guys were very consistent in your info, replies and faithfulness to this thread. You kept it going when Professur had to step away. Others helped too, but you guys stick out the most in my mind.

It took me approx 2.5 months to get through this thread, and gain the knowledge and balls to just do it! So I did, and I'm very happy thus far with the results. This is my first grow, using HTG T-5 SlimStar 4ft 8 lamp. Right now they're in veg under 4x6500k and 4xblue antics.

Peace!


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## Lucius Vorenus (May 3, 2013)

While not was very fun and we grew some great herb using T5, we exclusively use T5 for vegging.


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## OddTodd (Jun 25, 2013)

Got a question, I have an 8 bulb light with an even mix of 6400k and 3000k, if I could only afford 4 bulbs right now which would u recommend to buy to mix in with the bulbs I already have for flowering and what order should my 8 bulbs be in?


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2013)

Wow this thread is still alive. 

FYI instead of buying new HOT5 bulbs, I will replace my 8 bulb BB HO fixture with led tubes (see my thread to learn more on that)

To answer your question see my other thread which is HOT5, but you could simply change the ratio and use more ~2900s in 1/6 or 2/8 where the 6500s are on the outside or next to the outside.

These are flowering under 6 bulbs, 2 are CWs


If you want to crazy, like me, get 2 Wave Point Coral Waves


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## hyroot (Jun 26, 2013)

Great ceasars ghost its back. Every one run and hide.

4 bulbs. Zoo med flora suns. . Cheapest at drfostersmith.com. $14..99 ea. Spend $49 and get free shipping. So $60 for 4 bulbs. Imo those are the best t5 bulbs for flower. Can be used in veg too. They are full spectrum. Uv-a,, uv-b - has every wavvelength on the par scale. Peaks are at 45nm, 550nm, 630nm, 660nm" 730nm

http://www.drsfostersmith.com/product/prod_display.cfm?pcatid=4479 

View attachment 2714285


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## PetFlora (Jun 26, 2013)

I flower with 2 ZooMed Fluoros (light pink) + 2-3 UVL Red Life + (stark red) 1-2 Coral Waves (look blusih purple)

so I say 2 Fluoros + 2 Red lifes


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## OddTodd (Jun 26, 2013)

thanks for the input


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## DharmaBud (Jun 29, 2013)

Hey Everyone, I'm coming into this a few years late, but the proven science behind it is very convincing. My problem is I live in a 12' x16' cabin in Alaska, so I had no choice but to get a Growlabs GL80 which is 2'7" x 2'7" x 5'11". I need a fixture that uses the 2ft T-5 bulbs and could really use advice on how I can come close to the same results your getting with the 4ft T-5's. I came across this company called HTG Supply who touted a 2ft 4 bulb T-5 HO fixture that can utilize 6700k and 3000k and put out 20,00 lumens with 4 bulbs.

This is the technology they say that enables them to do this:

Come to find out they have this new technology called PLL

Product Details:

Nominal Length = 20.7"
5,000 lumen output per bulb
2G11 four pin base
20,000 hour life expectancy 

Have you ever heard of or seen this before?

It is basically a looped 2ft bulb that makes it into a 4 ft bulb. I am more interested in what the Pr0fessor had to say in the beginning about utilizing specific light spectrums to obtain ultimate results. I tried sending a PM, but the box quota is full, so I couldn't send the questions I had.

Can I do the same thing with just 2 ft bulbs, and which ones would I need and how would they be arrayed? I am only going to be growing 2 or 3 plants at most. Any advice would be most welcome.

Namaste,

Jeff


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## PetFlora (Jun 29, 2013)

DharmaBud said:


> Hey Everyone, I'm coming into this a few years late, but the proven science behind it is very convincing. My problem is I live in a 12' x16' cabin in Alaska, so I had no choice but to get a Growlabs GL80 which is 2'7" x 2'7" x 5'11". I need a fixture that uses the 2ft T-5 bulbs and could really use advice on how I can come close to the same results your getting with the 4ft T-5's. I came across this company called HTG Supply who touted a 2ft 4 bulb T-5 HO fixture that can utilize 6700k and 3000k and put out 20,00 lumens with 4 bulbs.
> 
> This is the technology they say that enables them to do this:
> 
> ...


Get either 1 or 2 bulb Shop light fixtures, retro wire for LED tubes. I paid $35/23w tube.

Mount them vertically in each corner, up high. I'm using 4 above 2 clones in a 2 x 4 x 5 high tent. Come by my thread for pics an details


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## DharmaBud (Jun 29, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> Get either 1 or 2 bulb Shop light fixtures, retro wire for LED tubes. I paid $35/23w tube.
> 
> Mount them vertically in each corner, up high. I'm using 4 above 2 clones in a 2 x 4 x 5 high tent. Come by my thread for pics an details


 I appreciate the input, but I know nothing about led's and I am a week away from putting everything together. I just don't have the time or money to lern and then buy all new stuff that the led will require. At least with the t-5's I have the fixtures and some bulbs, I just need to find out what light spectrum people are finding out that are working the best. What ever happened to the pr0fessor? He/She seems to have dropped off the map, and those ideas are the ones that I want to explore because of the uears of data to back them up.

If you got any info in that arena, I would sure take any advise you can provide.

Namaste

Jeff


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## DharmaBud (Jun 30, 2013)

PetFlora, your suggestion has nothing to do with LED at all does it. Is that the only way to get the aquarium lights to fit a T-5 2ft fixture?

Namaste

Jeff


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## DharmaBud (Jun 30, 2013)

PetFlora,
I suppose my first couple of openers here could have been construed as ignorant lol! I spent most of the night reading this thread and had some great high hopes that I still think can pan out. According to the Prof.
these bulbs were the standard to go by:

*UVL 454 w/internal reflector 
Fiji Purple
UVL Super Actinic w/internal reflector
ATI T5 12000K Aquablue Special
UVL 75.25 w/internal reflector
Fuji Purplehe ATI
UVL Red Sun here at Amazon: http://www.amazon.com/pet-supplies/dp/B0046JS5NU 

*I noticed that what he told people to use on their plants weren't all the same he listed under his own grow. Like the two different spectrums for* KorallenZucht Fiji Purple 630 & 440nm*, or *ATI Pro Color 660nm*.

I have gathered Ithink that there is a shortage of red spectrum lights. Has the Red sun not been enough or is it because it worked in conjunction with ATI Pro Color that has been discontinued?

Since the beginning have their been better combinations found than I listed, except for our Red situation. Which I will work on. I'm retired, I can do that.
I'll also assume we are looking for 660nm spectrum reds. Just a thought, what would we have to offset the T-5's with if we plugged in one of these babies?

If anyone could add to what I just learned, or provide me some update to the lighting improvements I would appreciate it. This will be my first grow, I need it for pain from my combat injuries and I'll be looking for another grow to let me sleep at night, flashbacks are a bitch.

Thank you for your time.

Namaste

Jeff


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## PetFlora (Jun 30, 2013)

DharmaBud said:


> PetFlora,
> I suppose my first couple of openers here could have been construed as ignorant lol! I spent most of the night reading this thread and had some great high hopes that I still think can pan out. According to the Prof.
> these bulbs were the standard to go by:
> 
> ...


The Prof was experimenting. As with all experiments, not everything you think will work does. The Fiji was a non starter as was the need for actinic blues. There is ample blue for both v + f in 5500-6500 bulbs

Read my threads to learn which HOT5s to use for veg & flower. I also have an tent that I use for experimenting, and now will be shifting to all LEDs. They are safer + equal or better results at half the watts + they last 5-10 years


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## bigggwiggg (Jul 8, 2013)

I have a 3' x 2' x 1' cab. I use a 2 x 2' T5 light setup. Veg growth was bountiful after ~5 weeks. What T5 bulbs should I use now for flowering? Remember, I only have room for 2 T5 bulbs.


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## GeneralTso (Sep 21, 2013)

I just wanted to thank all of the people who have provided input in this thread. I used a lot of the information found here when deciding what lamps to buy for flowering. I just finished my first grow and things turned out great (at least by my standards). I ended up getting a little over a pound from 5 plants. I have 12 4' t5 lamps that I divided into 3 groups. That came out to 4 lamps for each row of plants.

For vegging I used standard 6500K flowering lamps and didn't really use any input from this thread. Since things worked well I'm in no hurry to change things but once I complete a couple of grows I plan to trying some blue aquarium lamps to see if things improve.

For flowering I used the following for each group of 4 lamps: 1 ATI Purple Plus, 1 UV Lighting Aquasun, 1 UV Lighting Red Sun, and one Wave Point Coral Wave. I'm not saying that this is the best combination but it did work well for me. I was trying to get plenty of red (Red Sun and Purple lamps), some blue (Purple lamp), some ultraviolet (Coral Wave lamp), and some broad spectrum that provided spikes in red and blue (AquaSun lamp). I'm thinking that maybe I should have used a little more red later in the flower cycle - I might try that with the next grow.

@bigggwiggg: From my limited experience I'd recommend using aquarium bulbs. I would use one bulb that is totally red spectrum and one that is a combination of red spectrum and blue spectrum. The red promotes flowering but also promotes stretching. By adding a little blue you will hopefully reduce stretching. Try to find color spectrum charts for your lamps before buying them. That way you know exactly what you are getting. I like using this site (http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/) to buy my bulbs because they include spectrum charts for most models. If nobody comes up with anything better you might want to try one UV Lighting Red Sun and one ATI Purple for flowering.


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## hyroot (Sep 21, 2013)

Don't waste time n money on various bulbs. Zoo med flora suns and then 5400k, 2700k bulbs from htg is all you need. Htg's eBay store is cheaper than their website. Uvl redsuns work good too. But cost too much. Flora suns are cheapest at drfostersmith.com

led t8's are the way to go too. They last 10 times longer and have far more intensity. They are very pricey upfront.

check apache tech inc. For those.


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## GeneralTso (Sep 23, 2013)

First a disclaimer: I have only completed one grow so I have no personal experience in comparing different results using different lamps. With that said I beg to differ. I think using aquarium lamps and selecting lamps by color spectrum is the way to go. 

I picked up a few things while browsing this thread and the rest of the internet. I'd be very interested in hearing other people's opinions on these - whether they agree or disagree. Maybe I'm all wrong. If so then I should just save my money and buy less expensive lamps.

Here are the things that I learned so far:

Plants only use certain parts of the color spectrum with the required wavelengths changing over the life of the plant. A plant needs more blue when vegging and more red while flowering. Plants use very little or no light in the green wavelength.

A lamp that emits light in the wrong wavelength or emits light over a large band of different wavelengths is far less efficient than one that emits all of it's light in the wavelengths currently required by the plant.

Aquarium lamps have been around a lot longer than florescent grow lights so a lot more time and energy has been put into their design. They are designed to penetrate up to 5 feet of water. This results in slightly better light penetration in your grow room from the top of your plants to the bottom. 

If you look around, you can find color spectrum charts for most aquarium lamps. This gives you the ability to get the exact color wave lengths that you are looking for.

It's fun playing God and controlling the exact light wavelengths that your plants receive. The hard part is trying to figure out exactly which wavelengths are the best.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2013)

savage007 said:


> Yes that I can see, I was browsing another thread last night here:
> https://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/545857-advanced-lighting-spectrums-t5-floro-33.html
> 
> Going to post there and see if Fonz, Pet, or another has any suggestions. Thank you again for your input! I will be starting a journal/thread here shortly when my cabinet is finished  time for a morning puff....



Thought I would drop in and say hello. i am trying to get caught up in the forum and ill get to answering some questions, and getting some new posts going.

For all those who still Like and use my system i attach a reference Chart for the bulbs that were compiled together.

View attachment 2853430


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## Javadog (Oct 10, 2013)

I am looking to switch to T-5s and am looking to get to 4' bulbs
for a new Veg area.

...there are too much data on that chart! 

Can anyone recommend a good brand of T-5 for Vegging?

Good luck all,

JD

P.S. Searching and finding, so far:



> Use bulbs with a 5500-6500 Kelvin temperature.


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## captainmorgan (Oct 10, 2013)

pr0fesseur said:


> Thought I would drop in and say hello. i am trying to get caught up in the forum and ill get to answering some questions, and getting some new posts going.
> 
> For all those who still Like and use my system i attach a reference Chart for the bulbs that were compiled together.
> 
> View attachment 2853430


Hey pr0fesseur,still using some T5 HO. UVL had a special order 660 nm bulb last year some of us bought and I'm still using,this is a graph I think fonz posted of it.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2013)

http://www.premierltg.com/should-you-replace-your-t8-fluorescent-lamps-with-t8-led-tubes/

Food for thought.


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## pr0fesseur (Oct 10, 2013)

nice chart i was working on the same thing however my manufacturer would only come out of china. and theres no way i could make a dime at 29$ each....unless i bought 5k bulbs to bring down the price.


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## captainmorgan (Oct 10, 2013)

pr0fesseur said:


> nice chart i was working on the same thing however my manufacturer would only come out of china. and theres no way i could make a dime at 29$ each....unless i bought 5k bulbs to bring down the price.


Yea I think UVL charged me $30 each plus shipping. I have a cabinet with 360 watts of 5000k induction and I add 216 watts of T5 HO reds in flower. 2 Red Suns for the 630 nm and 2 660's and get really good results.


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## captainmorgan (Oct 10, 2013)

Javadog said:


> I am looking to switch to T-5s and am looking to get to 4' bulbs
> for a new Veg area.
> 
> ...there are too much data on that chart!
> ...


Quantum makes some good bulbs at 6500k and 2900k. If you want a little more stretch you could get a 5000k bulb, Zoomed Flora Suns are around 5000k and have a very nice spectrum,I use them.


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## Javadog (Oct 10, 2013)

I am looking into these. 

Thanks Capn!

JD


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## captainmorgan (Oct 10, 2013)

Javadog said:


> I am looking into these.
> 
> Thanks Capn!
> 
> JD


I have a 8 bulb badboy that I sometimes use a 50/50 of flora suns and quantum 6500k's or all 6500k's,depends on the strain and if I'm looking for more or less stretch.


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2013)

Hey Prof nice to see you back. I'm rocking 2 8 bulbs. Not the bulbs I'd like though. I'm borrowing the lights. Lost mine. Fijis, redsuns, coral wave, 5400k. And 268w of 2700k CFL (got for free). My plants are 5 feet tall. So needed more light for lower growth. I was doing vert CMH and t5 before I lost everything . I just added CFL the other day. I don't mind the extra watts. My kWh rate $0.07 . My thread link is in my sig. 

before I had flora suns, redsuns, and htg 2700k, htg 5400k.


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## PetFlora (Oct 11, 2013)

Hey Prof, glad I did not see that article before buying 4 tubes. I paid $34/20 w NW/18w WW led tubes, which fyi use ~ 0.3w diodes/engines. 

I am on my second grow using/supplementing with 4 @ 4ft led tubes, comparing to my 8 multi-specialty bulb HOT5s (432w). I only have 4 led tubes + 4 A19 led globes= ~ 115w. Tubes are already becoming dinosaurs as 2 x2/1x4/2x4 panels are replacing them in the marketplace. These panels provide more even coverage across the entire foot print. 

You would be shocked at how close the two grows are at 2 months from seed. Pics are misleading in that the seeds are F2, so pheno is all over the place, BUT, at the time I moved one plant (on left in hot5 pics) from my led tent to my hot5 tent they were virtually the same size. The small WHx pheno under the hot5s is the same size as those similar phenos in my led tent

When I first came across your thread I had just started using my Quantum BB with 4 each Quantum Grow/Flower tubes, but instead of using them, I ran out and bought all these specialty aquarium tubes. The biggest disappointment was the UVL 660.

I now know that mixing a bunch of specialty bulbs is unnecessary as NW + WW grow just fine. If someone wants shorter plants with tighter nodes use more NW



pr0fesseur said:


> http://www.premierltg.com/should-you-replace-your-t8-fluorescent-lamps-with-t8-led-tubes/
> 
> Food for thought.


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## johndo33 (Oct 29, 2013)

Bumbidy bump!!

What would be a good combination of a mix of veg and grow aquatic bulbs? I have 2 Badboy 4ft x 12 lamps T5HO fixtures and was wondering how i could put together a nice combo spectrum. In the room additionally i have 4 x 1000 Hortilux bulbs powered by matrix ballasts. The T5's are acting as a sort of side light as they are positioned high towards the ceiling. HPS bulbs hung vertically are bare bulb style. Currently just started 12/12

Any ideas fuji's, ati's, coral waves, redsuns?? In what order on a 12 bulb?


1rst post ---


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## johndo33 (Nov 4, 2013)

Lets keep the thread alive!!

Bump


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## stonedu (Nov 5, 2013)

PetFlora said:


> The Prof was experimenting. As with all experiments, not everything you think will work does. The Fiji was a non starter as was the need for actinic blues. There is ample blue for both v + f in 5500-6500 bulbs
> 
> Read my threads to learn which HOT5s to use for veg & flower. I also have an tent that I use for experimenting, and now will be shifting to all LEDs. They are safer + equal or better results at half the watts + they last 5-10 years


Read which threads? Sorry, but I've been reading this thread for hours and the more I learn, the more lost I get. Can someone tell me simply for a 4 bulb setup, what's the best mix for veg and what's the best mix for flower?

Sincerely 
Brain Dead.


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## PetFlora (Nov 6, 2013)

In my signature. Although I have a great results with my 8 bulb hot5 I would not go that route today. I have excellent results using led tubes, which last many times longer 

These are ~ 16 days from first pistils





stonedu said:


> Read which threads? Sorry, but I've been reading this thread for hours and the more I learn, the more lost I get. Can someone tell me simply for a 4 bulb setup, what's the best mix for veg and what's the best mix for flower?
> 
> Sincerely
> Brain Dead.


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## hyroot (Nov 6, 2013)

Veg Htg 5400k , zoo med flora suns

flower zoo med flora suns, htg 2700k, uvl redsuns


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 11, 2013)

i am growing in a smallish tent that is supposed to be for mothers/clones(4x2x2 ft). i have one 4 bulb 4 foot t5 fixture that i use 10000 k ho bulbs to veg with. my first grow i used the t5's exclusively growing 4 plants. they stayed very compact. i lst'd them but they grew what i thought was slowly. being my first indoor grow and my first real grow, i didn't know any better. i flowered with some 2700 k bulbs and supplemented with couple of 32 watt cfls (2700 k) and a couple of other 5000 k cfls. they were going along fine then a guy on a different forum suggested uv b supplementation. i found a 10000 k with uv a t5. i threw that in and removed one of the 2700 k t5's. that seemed to make my flowers really frosty. the smoke on that grow is really nice. so i am now on my second grow and have been supplementing with the 2700 k cfl's through the veg stage and the 2 plants i have have far out grown my first attempt. i am now trying a scrog. i am in my second week of 12/12 and just put my 10000k with uv a (it is made by agromax)in the tent. the plants just started to show that they are females. i was really happy to see a good reference on t5's though i have not had time to completely read through it. the data i have seen looks solid. i wish i was more disciplined so i could contribute more scientifically. my grow is more of a seat-of-the-pants grow though i am happy with my t5's. thanks for the good read.


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## johndo33 (Nov 12, 2013)

How many 10,000k bulbs do you put in? I was thinking about actually getting some of those my self. I have a 12 bulb fixture i wonder how many 10k's to get so there's enough uv-b


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## oldfogey8 (Nov 12, 2013)

i started out with all 4 bulbs in my 4 bulb fixture being 10000 k on my first grow. i think it stunted their growth during the veg phase. this time i supplemented with 2 26 w 2700 k cfl's. the 2 plants grew really fast. i went from seed to flower in 6 weeks. i now have 2 2700 k t5's, 1 10000 k and 1 10000 k with uv a. do the 10000 k's have uv b? maybe that would explain the stunted growth...


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## PetFlora (Nov 19, 2013)

Think of red as your gas pedal. Red causes stretch, *too much red*, even in flower, causes new top cola growth. 

Too much red also seems to make longer/skinnier buds. Since replacing 2/3 UVL Red Lifes with one Coral Wave and one Quantum Flower (2900), buds have begun to fatten up.

Come by my thread (sig) to see pre-pics + the next 2 weeks


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## GeneralTso (Nov 23, 2013)

That's an interesting observation concerning red light causing skinnier buds. I'm currently using a combination of blue and red for flowering. I considered adding more red for the current crop but ended up not doing it. After reading what you said, it's probably a good thing that I didn't.

For the people who posted above asking for a simple list of lamps to use. Here's what I've been using for flowering. I have 3 sets of 4 lamps with each set consisting of: 1 ATI Purple Plus, 1 UV Lighting Aquasun with reflector, 1 UV Lighting Red Sun, and 1 Wave Point Coral Wave. These are aquarium lights so you usually find them in aquarium supply places. I'm not saying that's the best list of lamps available or anything like that but I'm on my second grow with them and I'm happy with the results.

Does anybody with experience using t5's have any suggestions for changing that list?


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## PetFlora (Nov 23, 2013)

I think that one Red Life + one blue (454 Actinic) = ~ one ATI Purple Plus



GeneralTso said:


> That's an interesting observation concerning red light causing skinnier buds. I'm currently using a combination of blue and red for flowering. I considered adding more red for the current crop but ended up not doing it. After reading what you said, it's probably a good thing that I didn't.
> 
> For the people who posted above asking for a simple list of lamps to use. Here's what I've been using for flowering. I have 3 sets of 4 lamps with each set consisting of: 1 ATI Purple Plus, 1 UV Lighting Aquasun with reflector, 1 UV Lighting Red Sun, and 1 Wave Point Coral Wave. These are aquarium lights so you usually find them in aquarium supply places. I'm not saying that's the best list of lamps available or anything like that but I'm on my second grow with them and I'm happy with the results.
> 
> Does anybody with experience using t5's have any suggestions for changing that list?


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## RockyMtnMan (Nov 23, 2013)

I have a total of 24, four foot HO T5s. ( two six bulb fixtures, and three four bulb fixtures) For two years I have been running the following colors. I don't have the aquarium bulbs, just HO T5. I have been getting good results for a long time with my current mix. 
I basically mix alternating colors in a pattern: Blue, red, red, yellow. Blue, red, red, yellow.
I have one 6500k, then two 2700k, then one 3000k. I repeat this all the way down the line. 
I don't know if this is the "optimum" PAR, but my buds are tight, fat and I am averaging 3.5 - 4.0 oz. a plant. All fluoros, all the time.


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## GeneralTso (Nov 23, 2013)

@PetFlora: That sounds about right. What is a Red Life? I'm assuming it's a broad red spectrum lamp but I couldn't find anything that matched it.

@RockyMtnMan: It looks like we are doing the same thing - just approaching it from different angles. The lamps I use are mostly a combination of red spectrum (2700k) and blue spectrum (6500k). The aquasun lamp also puts out some light in the yellowish area. With my first crop I also averaged around 4 oz per plant. But I must confess that I left them flower for very long time (15 weeks). I kept waiting for the tricomes to turn cloudy but they stayed mostly clear until the last week.


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## PetFlora (Nov 23, 2013)

It's from UVL, aka Red Sun http://www.uvlco.com/AquariumT5.html. ZooMed Florasuns would be a good alternative, though more blue than red 



GeneralTso said:


> @PetFlora: That sounds about right. What is a Red Life? I'm assuming it's a broad red spectrum lamp but I couldn't find anything that matched it.
> 
> @RockyMtnMan: It looks like we are doing the same thing - just approaching it from different angles. The lamps I use are mostly a combination of red spectrum (2700k) and blue spectrum (6500k). The aquasun lamp also puts out some light in the yellowish area. With my first crop I also averaged around 4 oz per plant. But I must confess that I left them flower for very long time (15 weeks). I kept waiting for the tricomes to turn cloudy but they stayed mostly clear until the last week.


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## GeneralTso (Nov 23, 2013)

Ahh. Red Sun. That what I'm already using.


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## Lucius Vorenus (Nov 28, 2013)

Ok glad to see you guys are still doing this. I will offer my advice on best yields using T5. I don't use them any longer but I had 3 good harvests with them.

1. Feed less. Max of 600ppm in flower

2. Easy on the P. Use a 5-5-5 or a 9-3-6 gave best results for me. Any high P nute had my plants looking yellow and spindly like Petfloras

3. Grow in Coco and water daily, feed, feed, flush.


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## PetFlora (Dec 1, 2013)

Maximize your hot5 tubes light output with UVL bulbs with built in reflectors

http://www.aquariumspecialty.com/lighting/aquarium-t5-lamps/uv-lighting/uv-lighting-t5-w-reflectors


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## PetFlora (Dec 3, 2013)

I have come back to where I started in the very beginning of this thread. Proof of where I am is that Area 51's new panel (LED panel manufacturer) is all white ~ 4000-5000K. Simple and effective. 

ZooMed makes a newish? bulb called *Tropical Wave* when combined with + 1/4 ZooMed Florosuns should make for great results

After 2+ years of constant growing under my 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy (432w), I am inclined towards wanting an extra 2-4 bulbs. 3 @ 4 bulb fixtures should more than pay for themselves


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## finearthemp (Dec 3, 2013)

[h=1]Pr0fesseur, Thank you soo much for this this thread.

I just got the last of my bulbs today and installed them. I'm looking for some feedback on how I have them arranged in my 12 bulb bay.[/h]
Ati Super Actinic
UV 454
Korallen Zuxht Fiji Purple
UV 75.25
UV Red Sun
ATI Purple Plus
ATI Aqua Blue Special
Ati Purple Plus
UV 75.25
Korallen Zuxht Fiji Purple
UV 454
Ati Super Actinic

I have an extra bulb of each plus (two of the Red Suns for flowering) so I can rearrange for the best configuration.


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## jzforum (Feb 1, 2014)

I just stumbled on this website and ended up buying eight of their lamps. - http://www.wave-point.com

Check out the Ultra Growth Wave (Ultra Cola) light. It looks like it has good peaks in both the blue and red spectrum.

I'm going to be testing out 8 of them to see how they work.


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## PetFlora (Feb 1, 2014)

That's a HOT bulb! However, too much red will significantly increase stretch. Depending on tent height, you might only use 1-2 of them. I use one Coral Wave (pic # 1) during flower, once buds set. 



jzforum said:


> I just stumbled on this website and ended up buying eight of their lamps. - http://www.wave-point.com
> 
> Check out the Ultra Growth Wave (Ultra Cola) light. It looks like it has good peaks in both the blue and red spectrum.
> 
> I'm going to be testing out 8 of them to see how they work.


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## AAA420Report (Feb 2, 2014)

you are on to a great thread here loaded with information,
i stumbled upon this thread 420kushclean.com/light-spectrum/ which has a lot more information
the information in the article has listed 2 awesome bulbs which are very new to the growing market. they have a even some new bulbs listed in the article that are LOW IRON high UVB bulbs on the post. also the company had an artle about just UVB also at http://420kushclean.com/uvb-thc-production/ and by the looks of the grow pics on instagram, all i got to say is i wish my garden can one day look like Kush Clean's http://instagram.com/kushclean
its so good to see all us trying to educate ourselves past the basics


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## PetFlora (Feb 2, 2014)

The light spectrum link is one of the most intelligent (and easy reads) that I have come across. Kudos/LIKE



AAA420Report said:


> you are on to a great thread here loaded with information,
> i stumbled upon this thread 420kushclean.com/light-spectrum/ which has a lot more information
> the information in the article has listed 2 awesome bulbs which are very new to the growing market. they have a even some new bulbs listed in the article that are LOW IRON high UVB bulbs on the post. also the company had an artle about just UVB also at http://420kushclean.com/uvb-thc-production/ and by the looks of the grow pics on instagram, all i got to say is i wish my garden can one day look like Kush Clean's http://instagram.com/kushclean
> its so good to see all us trying to educate ourselves past the basics


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## PetFlora (Feb 2, 2014)

The light spectrum link is one of the most intelligent (and easy reads) that I have come across. However, the 2 bulbs are not hot5, but Kudos/LIKE



AAA420Report said:


> you are on to a great thread here loaded with information,
> i stumbled upon this thread 420kushclean.com/light-spectrum/ which has a lot more information
> the information in the article has listed 2 awesome bulbs which are very new to the growing market. they have a even some new bulbs listed in the article that are LOW IRON high UVB bulbs on the post. also the company had an artle about just UVB also at http://420kushclean.com/uvb-thc-production/ and by the looks of the grow pics on instagram, all i got to say is i wish my garden can one day look like Kush Clean's http://instagram.com/kushclean
> its so good to see all us trying to educate ourselves past the basics


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## mauricem00 (Mar 10, 2014)

the wavepoint ultra growth is available from amazon.com. I am going to be trying a blend of three of these bulbs with three standard 6500k bulbs on two strains.they look very promising


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## mauricem00 (Mar 10, 2014)

spectral output from wavepoint ultra growth


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## PetFlora (Mar 10, 2014)

Consider ZooMed FloraSuns (5000K) instead. 

You already have lots of blue in the CW


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## mauricem00 (Mar 24, 2014)

the chart for the flora suns looks very similar to the chart for the red wave bulbs




perhaps a little less blue and 630nm but similar the red wave does seem to have plenty of blue perhaps replacing the 6500k with flora suns would work. I switched from 2 6500k to two red wave bulbs on two 3 week old plants and they seem to love it.I am still trying to improve the spectrum and enjoy experimenting. I have a 50 watt warm white led that I am growing another plant under to see what that does but am considering adding a small cfl to get more blue during veg. the technology is evolving so rapidly that in time LEDS maybe the way to go a 50 watt module cost $5.80 on e bay and the driver was about $12. I am using a heat sink from a 12 volt cooler someone thru out and a muffin fan from an old computer.with the fan off the temperature only rises 45 degrees centigrade and with the fan the rise is only 7 degrees. View attachment 3033329


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## PetFlora (Mar 25, 2014)

Thanks to COB technology, LEDs have come of age

Here's a great, simple, elegant DIY http://howtogrowmarijuana.com/DIY-LED-grow-light

I am buying these to supplement my 2 @ 90w white ufos (3w diodes) 3500/5000K

http://www.aliexpress.com/item/5Pcs-6inch-24W-30w-COB-Led-downlight-hole-size-164mm-warm-white-white-free-express/1703604827.html

Double the amount (10 pieces) MIGHT be comparable to my 8 bulb Quantum Bad Boy for < $300!


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## mauricem00 (Mar 25, 2014)

thank you PETFLORA. very interesting link. my formal training was in electrical engineering and I have training as a machinist and gunsmith so DIY would be an easy project for me.I was concerned about the lack of broad spectrum blue light with leds and originally planed on using them to supplement fluorescents that lack broad spectrum red light.(with conventional 6500k/ 3000k grow lights.) then I discovered this thread and switched to aquarium lights and am very happy with the result.I saw a difference the first week.I like his ideal about adding sockets for cfl lights to supplement the spectrum. I have been thinking about trying a SMALL uvb light during the last weeks of flowering but with the low price of high power white LEDs I can afford to experiment with those as well. the results he got were impressive. in my state care givers are allowed to grow cannabis for MMJ cardholders if they are registered as primary caregivers so this is a non-profit project. I do appreciate all the valuable information I get from you and others on these forums and have learned a great deal. after reading that link I think I will add a 10 watt cool white led to my 50 watt warm white to get a little more blue. I think 60 watts at 4900 lumens might be enough for on small plant. thank you again for your input


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## mauricem00 (Mar 30, 2014)

PETFLORA in reading this thread it seems that you have a lot of experience with led lights. I would like your opinion on this combination. 3 10watt warm white leds (2700k) 1 10 watt 20000k led and one 10 watt 460nm blue led. a 50 watt warm white alone caused to much stretching so I think the addition of a 20000k white and a blue led would give more blue light and correct the problem but would like to draw on your experience thank you. I would like to use this for starting plants. the red wave ultra grow T5 is working great I have seen a dramatic increase in growth rate over a 6500k/3000k combo. I have ordered some of the floral sun maximum growth lights that I will be using for flowering. the red waves but out a little more blue while the floral suns favor the red spectrum. both lights give good coverage of the red and blue spectrum with a little green and seem well matched for plant growth.for anyone who has never worked with high power led modules (COB) never look directly at the light. you will see sun spots for several minutes afterwards. these things are bright!!!!!!


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## hyroot (Mar 30, 2014)

Just warm white and red 630 and red 660 is all you need for flower. For veg a mix of 4000k and 5000k is best for led. Anything higher than 5400k on the Kelvin scale is useless.


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## mauricem00 (Mar 30, 2014)

warm whites peak at about 610nm and put out a lot of red and far red light when used alone they seem to cause stretching and adding more red seems like it would make the problem worse. unlike black bodies the wavelength on white leds does not go down as the temperature rating increases. only the ratio of blue to longer wavelengths change they all have a peak around 450 nm give or take 10 nm the 20000k have more of this blue and less red and green.it is imposible to get the same broad balanced spectrum with leds with the current technology that aquarium lights provide.my goal is to increse blue light during veg to reduce streching that occurs when the red/blue balance is to far off.I do not believe that leds can match a well balance T5 at this stage of development but enjoy experimenting with them. leds may be able to beat HPS in terms of grams per watt if high powered chips are used( >5 watt) but the only comparison test I could find was published by a company that sells led grow lights.and I think the PROFs approach may allow T5s to beat HPS as well. but technology is rapidly evolving and leds may be the future.


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## PetFlora (Mar 31, 2014)

FYI: *hyroot *has solid 411

As you are seeing, you can mix 6500/5000/3000 etc to speed up or slow down stretch

with your background, I highly recommend you check out the DIY LED forums, especially Supra

Here's my plants after 10 days basking under LEDs: 3500 & 5000K. I disconnected the 5000K this morning to gain a bit more stretch


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## mauricem00 (Apr 8, 2014)




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## mauricem00 (Apr 8, 2014)

4 weeks old wavepoint ultra growth wave.miracle grow potting soil. 70/30 indica/ sativa and 70/30 sativa/indica. on your leds how many watts per square foot do you use.I am still playing with the mix but I am liking the 10 watt diodes.found an interesting drive that can run 7 (70 watts) in series. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Constant-Current-Driver-for-18-pcs-3W-High-Power-LED-12-18x-3W-Driver-waterproof/370845531274?_trksid=p2050601.c100085.m2372&_trkparms=aid=111001&algo=REC.SEED&ao=1&asc=20140211132617&meid=6074456763806380010&pid=100085&prg=20140211132617&rk=2&rkt=4&sd=331151016394&clkid=6074466810912347370&_qi=RTM1562570 I know ebay has a bad rep for leds but they are so cheap I can afford to by extras and pick the good ones.


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## mauricem00 (Apr 8, 2014)

it seems plants do need green light studies done in the 50's and 60's found that plants reflect 10% of red and blue light and 20% of green with a corresponding change in CO2 absorption. like everyone else here I am just trying to find the best light for my plants in a small closet MMJ grow. and it seems the action spectrum most commonly sited on these forums if for algie. higher plants have a flatter action spectrum and need full spectrum light from 420 to 680 nm these. spectrums are for anacharis sp (sea weed)


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## PetFlora (Apr 9, 2014)

Here's today's update

Uh Oh, Where did the pic upload icon go? Can't pull photos from my pictures


Think differently about what is needed by plants, which is umols^m*

You should enjoy the DIY threads on RIU. Those guys have answers


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## mauricem00 (Apr 10, 2014)

there is a lot of discussion about SPD and no agreement on what plants really need. I found this old study that may shine some light on the subject http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/46/1/1.full.pdf more evolved plants need a broader action spectrum (spd) that includes green light.




the attached graph shows clorophyll activity relative to intensity and studies using just red and blue leds found that the greatest activity occured with a 50/50 mix of red and blue. intensity is important to a certain point but with the right SPD (action curve) I believe good growth and high yield can be achieved with alot less energy.I am enjoying the DIY thread and this one on RIU but I believe that peer reviewed good scientific studies can help find better grow lights.umols^m squared is just another way of looking at intensity of light that adjust for the energy of wavelength being used but most of the action spectrums being cited on these sites are for green algae or "sea weed" the study I sited and dozens of others show that more developed plants require a broader spectrum. T5s like the floral sun or ultra growth wave come close to matching this spectrum as did the old grolux. with their higher efficiencies leds have the potential of outperforming other types of grow lights with the right spd.currently leds need to be operated at about 25% of full power to get these efficiencies and are expensive this will change in the near future but I see no market force that would drive the development of high efficiency monochromatic leds that would be needed to fine tune the SPD. an RWB mix does come a lot closer to that SPD than HPS or MH bulbs so would be a good replacement for them and LED growers are already outperforming them with the right growing techniques. I enjoy discussing this matter and I am sure there is much I can learn from you and others on these sites.


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## mauricem00 (Apr 14, 2014)

BlueB said:


> In regards to the gro-lux type of plant grow bulb.
> FROM ED ROSENTHAL
> "Theoretically, these tubes should work better for growing plants than standard lighting tubes. However, some standard or regular fluorescent tubes used for lighting actually work better for growing plants than more expensive natural-spectrum tubes and gro-tubes specifically manufactured for plant growth. The reason is that regular fluorescent produce more light (lumens), and overall lumen output is more important for growth rate than a specific light spectrum. To compensate for their spectrums, use them in combinations of one "blue" fluorescent to each one or two "red" fluorescent (Box B)."
> http://www.1stmarijuanagrowerspage.com/how-to-grow-marijuana.html#c5-3
> section 5.3


the gro lux has be around for decades and uses the old halo phosphorus.the new T5s us new triphosphorus blend that are much more efficient and new plant bulbs use a rare earth phosphorus that produce more deep red. they also have a lot less green in them and do not suffer the loss of output the old gro lux tubed did. lumens are for people not plants and are heavily waited in favor of green light.comparing modern plant light to the old gro lux would be like comparing modern leds to the old panel lights that have been around for decades. intensity means nothing if the light is in a spectrum that the plants can't use. if it did not work no one would stick to it but I have seen increase growth rate when I added plant lights.how old is this quote ? is the gro lux even made anymore? it seems like most people here are just trying to find better ways to grow their girls and do not have a problem experimenting with new ideals. I have learned a lot from some of the people here and enjoy the exchange


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## jcommerce (May 3, 2014)

I've been using ATI bulbs for many years. Hands down, the best...especially in one of their fixtures. I'm using them for my mothers and pre-veg on this grow:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/pheno-hunt-paradise-seeds-ice-cream-hydro-style.821311/page-2#post-10465860


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## Screaming trees (Jul 1, 2014)

Well this thread went dead. I love it. Good info.


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## PetFlora (Jul 1, 2014)

As one of the first to hitch my wagon to Profs ideas, I did so because back in April of 2010 led tech was both expensive and pathetic for mj growers. 

The idea that all mj needs is chlora A& B was, and is, ludicrous

Over the past 1-2 years white led panels have entered the mj market _(developed specifically for mj)_ and are proven with many grow site threads

That said, many of the white panels will only adequately cover 2 x 2, with a significant drop off thereafter

I just finished flowering with a BML SPYDR 600 whose max physical footprint is 3 x 3, it is the most flexible light available 

Come by my thread to see it in action


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## Pompeygrow (Nov 16, 2014)

hi guys i know this is an old thread but im lost now on what t5 and bulbs to buy for clones/veg i have a set up for flower with 600w hps


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## Big Trees (Nov 16, 2014)

6500k bulbs are fine man the bulbs talked about here are mainly for flower. Just get whatever fixture suits the area you wanna veg in. You can't go wrong with hydrofarm or really any of the other companies out there.


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## xotorazeko (Dec 10, 2014)

Hey.. Quite confused here with bulb selections / replacements.

Can somebody tell me if there is a reason why to replace some act./blue lights with additional sun/red when switching to flowering if one has a set up like pro's?


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## Beer Belly (Dec 29, 2014)

Crazy thread T5 the anti LED. Looking at them for side lighting my 1400 w LED's.


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## mauricem00 (Feb 11, 2015)

xotorazeko said:


> Hey.. Quite confused here with bulb selections / replacements.
> 
> Can somebody tell me if there is a reason why to replace some act./blue lights with additional sun/red when switching to flowering if one has a set up like pro's?


for vegging you need blue light to stimulate cytochrome which instructs plants to direct energy to leaf development while for flowering you need more red light to stimulate photochrome which instructs plants to direct energy into flowering. these pigments do many other things and a long dark period is needed because photochrome reverts back to its inactive form in darkness and the ratio of active to inactive photochrome at dawn (lights on) tells plant when to flower


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## mauricem00 (Feb 11, 2015)

xotorazeko said:


> Hey.. Quite confused here with bulb selections / replacements.
> 
> Can somebody tell me if there is a reason why to replace some act./blue lights with additional sun/red when switching to flowering if one has a set up like pro's?


for vegging you need blue light to stimulate cytochrome which instructs plants to direct energy to leaf development while for flowering you need more red light to stimulate photochrome which instructs plants to direct energy into flowering. these pigments do many other things and a long dark period is needed because photochrome reverts back to its inactive form in darkness and the ratio of active to inactive photochrome at dawn (lights on) tells plant when to flower


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## mmmdankbuds420 (May 3, 2015)

Badass thread man. A lot of good information. Just posted those links to help strengthen the evidence behind T5 growing. I've only ever grown with HPS but I'm definitely switching to T5's on my next grow.


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## churchhaze (May 3, 2015)

mmmdankbuds420 said:


> Badass thread man. A lot of good information. Just posted those links to help strengthen the evidence behind T5 growing. I've only ever grown with HPS but I'm definitely switching to T5's on my next grow.


You'd be so much better off staying with HPS.


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## Javadog (May 3, 2015)

They are lovely all the same!


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## mmmdankbuds420 (May 21, 2015)

churchhaze said:


> You'd be so much better off staying with HPS.


I will probably us hid lighting again someday, but I gotta really test this out. I'm moving into an apartment and know I won't be able to combat the heat and high energy used. And with this method the light penetration will be a lot less so my canopy will need to be scrogged and only a few inches deep. Since things will be so short I plan to double stack my grow one on top of the other. Hopefully this will get my yield up to par since I won't be wasting vertical space. Its all in the air though. I got my fingers crossed.


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## s24ws (Mar 10, 2016)

I found this thread searching for Wave points ultra growth wave light. Is anyone using them?


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## Expensivellama (May 23, 2016)

I use wave point ultra growth wave blubs and so far they're doing the job


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## Evil-Mobo (May 23, 2016)

s24ws said:


> I found this thread searching for Wave points ultra growth wave light. Is anyone using them?


@RM3 has an entire thread where he switches to the Wave Length bulbs and you can see his pics. They definitely got the job done. I just ordered various Agromax T5 bulbs to try out myself as well, good price on them over @ HTG supply. Waiting on getting my T5 fixture and will get it up and rocking. 

Here's RM3's thread there is so much info in here, including a link somewhere to one of his other threads with a ton of info as well:
https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-leprechauns-pot-o-gold.855314/

People seem to get very heated when discussing the different methods, but what I am finding out, this hobby like any of my others beofre, there's just different ways to go about what you're doing. You need to find what works "for you" Too many variables between grows, especially just with people having different geographical locations which affects the ambient surrounding of your grow area. 

The best way to see how stuff works is to get it and use it, and then see for yourself. 

Just my $0.02


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## Expensivellama (May 23, 2016)

Took the words out of my head


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## whitebb2727 (May 23, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> @RM3 has an entire thread where he switches to the Wave Length bulbs and you can see his pics. They definitely got the job done. I just ordered various Agromax T5 bulbs to try out myself as well, good price on them over @ HTG supply. Waiting on getting my T5 fixture and will get it up and rocking.
> 
> Here's RM3's thread there is so much info in here, including a link somewhere to one of his other threads with a ton of info as well:
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-leprechauns-pot-o-gold.855314/
> ...


I followed rm3 thread. I grow with t5. I use agromax bulbs. Including pure par and the pure UV. I use 10,000k bulbs to.

Don't run one spectrum. The whole blue red veg flower argument. A mixed spectrum is better. 

 
This pic is with my phone. There are better pics in my thread.


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## hyroot (May 23, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> @RM3 has an entire thread where he switches to the Wave Length bulbs and you can see his pics. They definitely got the job done. I just ordered various Agromax T5 bulbs to try out myself as well, good price on them over @ HTG supply. Waiting on getting my T5 fixture and will get it up and rocking.
> 
> Here's RM3's thread there is so much info in here, including a link somewhere to one of his other threads with a ton of info as well:
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/the-leprechauns-pot-o-gold.855314/
> ...


This is a very old thread. If you read through it. You will see almost everyone that has been on here for years that runs cobs and cmh were once running these par t5's and moved on. Even me. I ran them for 2 years. 


If you plan on running t5's do not use wave point bulbs. They're junk. They're made in China and do not last beyond 6 months. They burn out quick. I'm speaking from experience. I probably experimented with different bulbs and spectrums more than anyone on this forum.

Use zoo med flora suns. Run only those . They're made in Germany. They last a year and the best and cheapest bulbs you can get for t5's. They're full spectrum and have uva and uvb and IR. Get them at drfostersmith.com $10 -$15 each. They go on sale a lot.

All t5 bulbs start to spectral degrade after a couple months. These lights work great. But the bulbs don't last more than a year. So it gets expensive replacing them. Also they use more watts and produce more heat than a cob panel or cmh or 1 inda gro. And t5's cover less area. They're very inefficient. Most reef tanks and fresh water tanks don't even use t5's anymore. Most use led these days. For the longevity and less power.

These were great for its time when they outperformed led. They're a relic now. 200w of cobs will blow away 432 watts of par t5. My 315 cmh covers 3.5' x 3.5' and 4x4 with multiple cmh's over lapping and pulls 339 watts at the wall. A t5 covers 2x4 at 432 watts. Produces far more heat. Cmh will blow any t5


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## Evil-Mobo (May 23, 2016)

hyroot said:


> This is a very old thread. If you read through it. You will see almost everyone that has been on here for years that runs cobs and cmh were once running these par t5's and moved on. Even me. I ran them for 2 year . If you plan on running t5's do not use wave point bulbs. They're junk. They're made in China and do not last beyond 6 months. They burn out quick. Use zoo med flora suns. They're made in Germany. They last a year and the best and cheapest bulbs you can get for t5's. They're full spectrum and havw uva and uvb. Get them at drfostersmith.com $10 -$15 each. They go on sale a lot.
> 
> All t5 bulbs start to spectral degrade after a couple months. These lights work great. But the bulbs don't last more than a year. So it gets expensive replacing them. Also they use more watts and produce more heat than a cob panel or cmh or 1 inda gro. And t5's cover less area. They're very inefficient. Most reef tanks and fresh water tanks don't even use t5's anymore. Most use led these days. For the longevity and less power.
> 
> These were great for its time when they outperformed led. They're a relic now. 200w of cobs will blow away 432 watts of par t5. My 315 cmh covers 3.5' x 3.5' and 4x4 with multiple cmh's over lapping and pulls 339 watts at the wall. A t5 covers 2x4 at 432 watts. Produces far more heat. Cmh will blow any t5


I know the thread is old, I didn't bump it up someone else did, just adding my $0.02. It's just for veg, and I ordered the agromax bulbs from HTG which are stupid cheap. I know you and RM3 have difference of opinion on many things and I am not trying to start a pissing match with anyone on here. I have a 315 CMH en route with a 3x3 as well. The T5 will just be for veg in my 2x4. I have not been pleased with the hassles the LED's have given me thus far. They have been great for the plants but I have been working around other issues with them.

Also the 315 CMH is not the right light for my 2x4 due to it's size hence why I ordered a 3x3 for it. 

I have LED's in there now and want to try something different. There are still many people getting great veg results from these T5 setups. I also do not have the issues with the restrictions or whatever you guys deal with over there with the electricity. I can't see how running (1) T5 setup in one of my tents to test it out will be the end of the world.

There's a few guys on here with threads showing veg and flower with similar T5 setups and the results speak for themselves.

If you want to buy my four COB from the 2x4 and the tent it's in I will happily get another 3x3 and another Sun Systems 315w LEC CMH light 

Thanks for your input though.


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## mauricem00 (May 28, 2016)

s24ws said:


> I found this thread searching for Wave points ultra growth wave light. Is anyone using them?


 the floral suns have th same SPD and are cheaper and better quality. for a small closet grow I use 2 6500ks for vegging than ad 2 flora suns for flowering. they last longer than the wavepoint bulbs. I have tried both


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## mauricem00 (May 28, 2016)

Evil-Mobo said:


> I know the thread is old, I didn't bump it up someone else did, just adding my $0.02. It's just for veg, and I ordered the agromax bulbs from HTG which are stupid cheap. I know you and RM3 have difference of opinion on many things and I am not trying to start a pissing match with anyone on here. I have a 315 CMH en route with a 3x3 as well. The T5 will just be for veg in my 2x4. I have not been pleased with the hassles the LED's have given me thus far. They have been great for the plants but I have been working around other issues with them.
> 
> Also the 315 CMH is not the right light for my 2x4 due to it's size hence why I ordered a 3x3 for it.
> 
> ...


 I tried mars hydro and a DIY COB using vero18s and was not impressed. my LEDs are collecting dust while my T5s are still growing plants


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## Evil-Mobo (May 28, 2016)

I think the combo of T5 for veg and CMH for flower is going to be a winner for me......


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## All-in (Jun 29, 2019)

BlueB said:


> Infra-red doesn't even start until 740nm. That's quite far from 660nm actually. 110nm away. if you subtract 110nm from 660nm you get GREEN. 660nm is only 30nm farther up the scale than 630nm which is where red only BEGINS. 660nm is in the beginning of the deep-red zone which goes all the way up to 700nm and then FAR-RED starts at 700nm and goes up to 740nm or INFRARED. IR is all the wavelengths beyond 740 indefinitely.
> 
> So to clarify, 730nm is NEAR IR, not 660nm.
> 
> ...


Running a 730nm for 15 minutes after lights out triggers the sundown response and speeds up the night time process for the plant. Can shave 1 to 2 weeks off of flowering without affecting the yield as well as having the pptential to add to the flavor and smell. Farmertylet on youtube has several short videos on this and other colors. Very interesting stuff.


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## hotrodharley (Jun 30, 2019)

All-in said:


> Running a 730nm for 15 minutes after lights out triggers the sundown response and speeds up the night time process for the plant. Can shave 1 to 2 weeks off of flowering without affecting the yield as well as having the pptential to add to the flavor and smell. Farmertylet on youtube has several short videos on this and other colors. Very interesting stuff.


Old thread why? You can buy a screw in LED bulb in730 nm far red. No external ballast needed.


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## All-in (Jul 1, 2019)

hotrodharley said:


> Old thread why? You can buy a screw in LED bulb in730 nm far red. No external ballast needed.


I have been looking for that exect set up with no real luck. All the ones I find is either a conbo of 730nm and 660nm or it is just an 850nm. If anyone has a link to ine that would be great.


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## Rocket Soul (Jul 1, 2019)

All-in said:


> I have been looking for that exect set up with no real luck. All the ones I find is either a conbo of 730nm and 660nm or it is just an 850nm. If anyone has a link to ine that would be great.


Can you link the 850nm screw in pls?


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## hotrodharley (Jul 1, 2019)

All-in said:


> I have been looking for that exect set up with no real luck. All the ones I find is either a conbo of 730nm and 660nm or it is just an 850nm. If anyone has a link to ine that would be great.


730 nm spot. 

https://www.htgsupply.com/products/agromax-730-nm-led/


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## All-in (Jul 1, 2019)

Rocket Soul said:


> Can you link the 850nm screw in pls?


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## All-in (Jul 1, 2019)

Rocket soul. It wont let me post a link but it is on amazon it is by ABI and it is a red light therapy near infeared 850nm. It is a screw in as well and LED


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## All-in (Jul 1, 2019)

hotrodharley, thanks for the link.


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## All-in (Jul 1, 2019)

Rocket Soul it wont let me post a link as of yet since im so new to roll ut up. But it is on Amazon its made by ABI and it is a near infrared, red light therapy light. Its screw in and led. Hope this helps


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