# Well N A, The Tankless Water Heater is the Bomb!



## legallyflying (Feb 21, 2011)

So after finding out that many a commercial "water cooled co2 generators" were simply on demand tankless water heaters, I picked up a small one on e-bay.

Ran the NG lines to the grow room, buried a 50 gallon barrel in the ground , threw a sump pump in it, ran the hoses, and connected the water pump to my co2 controller. Tadahhh.. works like a charm!!

List of equipment and cost:
6 liter tankless NG water heater $165
harbor freight 1/2 HP submersible pump $40
50' length of heavy duty rubber garden hose $40
50 gallon plastic barrel = free
About 25'of NG pipe and misc fittings $60
never ever ever half to fill up another Co2 or propane tank and produce co2 at a FRACTION of the cost ... Priceless.

(I should note that if I bought the $375 hydrogen unit I would have needed all the stuff above anyways)
Some pics... 




ok, I know the gasline looks kludgy at an angle but I won't risk running into it if I come into the room when its dark. The two other pictures show the routing of the water hoses around the room and out a vent to the barrel outside. 

At first I cranked the unit up using both burners and maximum burn. The unit shut off at 1500 and then levels promptly kept rising to 2200. So I reduced the level and shut off one of the burners using the "summer time" setting. The Co2 turns on the water pump at 1425, the burner instantly clicks on, runs for about 4 minutes and shuts off at 1525. Levels then rise to about 1700. I put that fan on the ceiling to route co2 towards the controller on the other end of the room. 

The unit barely puts off any heat. I would say its equal to a stove on the lowest simmer setting or about 5 big candles. 

Just thought I would pass it on. Works like a charm.

Oh what the hell, whats a grow room photo without some god damned bud.... mid 6th week here.

View attachment 1455399View attachment 1455400View attachment 1455401View attachment 1455398


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## Urpgag (Feb 22, 2011)

ur post just paid for the price of my admission to the site lol

coool idea. ever hear of using furnace water to CO2 the roots with? it's free if you use a high efficiency gas central heat furnace... but this? this Rocks haa ha I love it!


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## Wolverine97 (Feb 22, 2011)

Urpgag said:


> ur post just paid for the price of my admission to the site lol
> 
> coool idea. ever hear of using furnace water to CO2 the roots with? it's free if you use a high efficiency gas central heat furnace... but this? this Rocks haa ha I love it!


Furnace water? CO2 the roots? Wha?


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## legallyflying (Feb 22, 2011)

Umm yeah, why the hell would you want to put co2 in the root zone? Your post is a terrific example of the perils of a website that has no admission


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## Dirty Harry (Feb 22, 2011)

OK, is the sump pump the water pump your connected to your CO2 monitor? Your circulating heater water from from the 50 gal drum via sump pump and heater returns to drum? I assume the drum is buried outside? GENIUS! 
I would fill that drum with soft water. My towns water is so damn hard you can almost walk on it. Those without water softeners go through a normal water heater around every 5-8 years. I doubt it would take a lot of calcium to build up and ruin that thankless...
BUT with your configuration you could run a heavy dose of vinegar water or mix in a gal or two of muratic acid (used in pools) to clean out the deposits.


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## legallyflying (Feb 22, 2011)

Yep, when water heaters sense flowing water they turn on. Same way the "new" co2 generators do. No wories on hard water, we have wonderfully clean water here. base ppm out of the tap is around 26. I do need to put some chlorine or something in there to keep it from getting scummed up.. 

The outside barrel thing works awesome really. In was worried it would get hot but I went outside yesterday after a full cycle of making co2 and it was hardly warm.


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## Dirty Harry (Feb 22, 2011)

Very slick. How hot do your summers get? That is when the tank could get warm just from outdoor temps. My area is freaking winter right now and if you want to dig a hole it will take heavy equipment to break the ground.


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## legallyflying (Feb 22, 2011)

Summer time temps won't matter at all...because I buried it. The thermal capacity of the ground will keep it cool as bellow about 20" the ground stays a consistent 55 degrees. It will also prevent it from freezing in the winter.


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## Dirty Harry (Feb 22, 2011)

Just brilliant! and plus rep.
Maybe a couple months you report back on your results and if this effects your gas bill much.


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## legallyflying (Feb 22, 2011)

I thought about the gas bill thing but really, the burner is pretty damn small. Like smaller than the burner on my stove. I have a gas water heater and gas stove and my gas bill in the summer is $50 month and I take allot of baths and have two kids so I wash a shit load of clothes. 

I think that my bill is maybe going to go up like $5-10. Natural gas is hella cheeap. WAAAY cheaper than propane which is a petroleum distillate.


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## Wetdog (Feb 23, 2011)

Way cool.

Not hooked up at the moment, but I have NG to the house.

Wet


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## legallyflying (Feb 23, 2011)

Let me know if you need help hooking up the NG. Pretty straight forward really but it is an explosive gas so you should take some precautions.


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## Dirty Harry (Feb 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Let me know if you need help hooking up the NG. Pretty straight forward really but it is an explosive gas so you should take some precautions.


 Liquid soap is your friend. Put it on all connections, if it bubbles your leaking.


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## legallyflying (Feb 23, 2011)

yes. And note that gas lines typically only run at about .5 psi so its not like bubbles are going to explode. They very slowly expand. 

Also, don't use the white teflon tape when connecting black iron pipe. You need the yellow stuff designed for gas lines. Other than that its pretty damn straight forward. Of course install a shut off valve near the beginning of your grow room gas line. (the closer to the original line the better).


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## canndo (Mar 2, 2011)

Aren't there some N02 and monoxide issues here?


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## legallyflying (Mar 2, 2011)

Nitrous oxide? No it's completely clean burning. Co2 and water vapor. I have a co sensor in there and it hasn't registered anything.


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## dlively11 (Mar 2, 2011)

Good going ! I was very close to buying one of those water cooled units for around $300. The problem I have with Co2 is my room would get too hot without an AC I think. My room gets up to 80 right now without air cooled hoods running and I have good air going in and out. I know you can run hotter temps with CO2. I just dont have a place for an AC nor the extra power. I really like this idea and want it badly.


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## dlively11 (Mar 2, 2011)

I thought there might be some kind of issue with a hot water heater and that the guys selling the CO2 do something to make them cleaner ....


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## mrduke (Mar 3, 2011)

Alright legally, i got a couple ? for you. Do you loose the c02 out of that window AC ? are you still running exhaust or just a scrubber filter?

so let me see if I got this right, I'm tring to see if I could make this work for me. So the water pumps turns on pumping the water thru the tankless, it gets heated creating co2 which is exhausted into the grow. Then the heated water is returned to a 55 gal drum. Is that pretty much the cycle??

Do you have a co2 controller/monitor or do you just use timer? If theres a controller it just turns your pump on/off correct.
If your res. drum wasn't burried would you need a water chiller? At least for the hotter summer months it get to be high 90's or 100 where Im at.

sorry for bombarding you with questions I not all that smart???? BUt i do think this could be a sweet set up


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## legallyflying (Mar 3, 2011)

Ok. Herr are the answers.
Yes, a little 
Scrubber only 
Yes, that is the cycle 
A ppm controller triggers the pump 
A chiller may or may not be required. The warmer the water the warmer the exhaust in your room. 

Works pretty sweet though.


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## legallyflying (Mar 3, 2011)

Ok. Herr are the answers.
Yes, a little 
Scrubber only 
Yes, that is the cycle 
A ppm controller triggers the pump 
A chiller may or may not be required. The warmer the water the warmer the exhaust in your room. 

Works pretty sweet though.


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## canndo (Mar 3, 2011)

I meant NO (I think). I spoke to the inventor of the first water cooled Co2 gen at a convention and he pretty much said what you said. He said he had made modifications but wouldn't describe what those modifications were - he claimed Monoxide was an issue but if you don't sense any then there isn't any and he must have been blowing smoke - er - something. I think that's great.


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## dlively11 (Mar 3, 2011)

canndo said:


> I meant NO (I think). I spoke to the inventor of the first water cooled Co2 gen at a convention and he pretty much said what you said. He said he had made modifications but wouldn't describe what those modifications were - he claimed Monoxide was an issue but if you don't sense any then there isn't any and he must have been blowing smoke - er - something. I think that's great.


 That is what I remember hearing as well. Cant imagine it would be at any kind of dangerous level but still...


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## dlively11 (Mar 3, 2011)

What tankless water heater did you get ? What size is the grow room? I know you said you had to turn one of the burners off so it seems to be bigger then you actually need for your room size.


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## dlively11 (Mar 3, 2011)

BTW great looking grow ! What strain is that and did you use CO2 in it prior to this new setup ? What kind of increase are you seeing with the CO2 ?


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## legallyflying (Mar 3, 2011)

It's a 6 liter aquah Dont know the model. My room is about 400 CF. I use only one burner for less heat but also since the ppm meter now works in an on/off mode instead of fuzzy logic if I have the unit cranking it will overshoot my set point by several 100 ppm


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## mihjaro (Mar 3, 2011)

I was under the impression that tankless water heaters were supposed to be vented just like any gas water heater so that any CO produced is removed. I also thought the venting carried out all of the combustion byproducts, including the CO2. Is this not what happens or is your installation not vented?

Obviously, you're getting a rise in CO2 and not getting an alarm on your CO monitor.


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## legallyflying (Mar 3, 2011)

mihjaro said:


> I was under the impression that tankless water heaters were supposed to be vented just like any gas water heater so that any CO produced is removed. I also thought the venting carried out all of the combustion byproducts, including the CO2. Is this not what happens or is your installation not vented?
> 
> Obviously, you're getting a rise in CO2 and not getting an alarm on your CO monitor.


Yeah, your supposed to vent them, but ummm venting the co2 out of the room would kind of defeat the purpose don't cha think? I'm telling you dude, they are the same damn things. "special modifications" my ass. Like what? Water movement turns the burner on. You can adjust the intensity of the burner and you can adjust the water flow. The flame is entirely blue. What could they have possibly changed? 

I take it back, they do change something. The plastic cover and the fucking decals.


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## budleydoright (Mar 3, 2011)

They still work great even with very warm water. It still removes a very high percentage of the heat. I just worried about my pump sitting in 100+ water.

Here's my latest DIY chiller made from a window airconditioner and a new heat exchanger. I've got way less than 200 bucks in it.

It's made from the small 100 200 sq ft room AC units from wal mart. Is easily chilling 2 1000 hps bulbs in fresca sol reflectors.


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## dlively11 (Mar 3, 2011)

I had my doubts on whether they really changed anything or not too. I had heard people talking about using a tankless water heater instead. Props looks very good and I'll keep this in mind of I go this route. Would save a little over $100. Actually I think they require some special adpator to go from propane to Gas so probably more like $200 savings.


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## budleydoright (Mar 4, 2011)

I think you can buy one or the other. Converting would require replacing parts.


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## mrduke (Mar 7, 2011)

LF what type of contoller are you useing? It seems that it going to be the most expensive part of all but it also necassary right?


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## legallyflying (Mar 7, 2011)

Yes and yes. You can sorta get by without a controller but to be quite honest, you really can't. To do it right you just have to bite the bullet and buy a controller. I have a CAP xgc1. I found it on crags list for $400. It's pretty pimp but I don't use many of the features simply because they are controlled independently ( air con, dehu, lights). So any decent ppm controller will work. It is allot to swallow but I promise that if you have warm temps and bright lights, the effects of high co2 will shock you.


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## mrduke (Mar 7, 2011)

thanks LF I think i'm going to go this route. With me new room setup i have 3000w and with outside temps of like 60 i can keep it at 78 just exhausting all the time,but comesummer it'llbe regularly 90 outside and a 20 degree spike from that would be "no bueno". I do have ac but when i runit i have to shut the exhaust off or it just gets sucked out. Is your window ac the walmart 5000 btu kind thats what i got and i think it'll be plenty for my room. on another note do you think that if you set your controller to come on at 1400 and off at 1425 it would be better since you say it over shoots the desired range by a few hunderd ppm? I dont know if you can but might be worth a try.


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## legallyflying (Mar 8, 2011)

Well with a co2 generator it's simply an on off. They can run the fuzzy logic system with a gen. If I set I at 1500 it turns on at about 1425 and shuts off and 1500 then climbs to about 1650. I have a fan that blows the co2 towards the controller to help. I did a google search an there is a cap3 or something that is $379 I might be able to score one wholesale if your interested.


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## mrduke (Mar 8, 2011)

(thanks for helpin out with me search. I was looking at the same thing but it only has a 1/2 amp load which isn't enought for any pump. I think i'll have to bite the bullet and go wiht a sentinal cppm-4 or a titan atlas-1. Suck cause there both like 450 bucks or more but i did find a sweet little tankless for 105 bucks shipped ( eccotemo 5L) is just a bit smaller than yours. I also think i'll run propane tanks as I dont want to run gas lines thru me whole house. it says 18 hours of hot water per tank that should last atlest a month


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## legallyflying (Mar 8, 2011)

Yeah, that should last at least a month. I used rubber garden rose to run the lines to the rez, works nice. real rubber, not that super cheap looking green shit. I'm surprised the CAP only has a 1/2 amp capability on that swtich. You might call cap. I know that someone simply wired a little relay to theirs to bypass this. The relay basically turns on the power to a circuit that the pump is plugged into. 

Just a thought.


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## mrduke (Mar 8, 2011)

yeah I'll look into that. As far as the hose i have like 75' of the cap rubber hose for the E&G probably just use that.


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## legallyflying (Mar 8, 2011)

Cool. This is the water pump I have. It was recently on sale for like $35. Works awesome. Actually bought a second one for draining my reservoirs. Takes like 5 minutes to drain 50 gallons and deposit in my utility sink across the room. 

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-hp-115-volt-submersible-water-pump-98342.html


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## mrduke (Mar 8, 2011)

i guess i was lookin at the wrong controller i just found a cap ppm-4 with up to 10 amp service. and its 199. + 105 for the heater and I'm in the busniess for under 350 fuck yeah ..

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CBQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hydrofarm.com%2Fdownloads%2Ffc%2Fppm-4%2520instructions_6176.pdf&ei=O-t2Tc67HYGssAPilZDBBA&usg=AFQjCNHXDfYFZfWbWJTbd-rjS9qp5Le96Q&sig2=ZEJchFDTI0xpLQfITijkVA


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## budleydoright (Mar 8, 2011)

PPM4 is kind of a piece of crap. It uses a semicinductor sniffer which is about a 2.00 part. All of the others use NDIR infra red sensors whch is the current state of the art in detection. Plus you never know what your actual numbers are. You could be overshoothing to 3000ppm and never know it.


Go on ebay, there are always PPM3s, PPM3 knock offs or telaire based units, digigros etc for just a little more than the ppm4. I have a digigro and popped the relay in it. they sent me an upgraded version at no charge that has the external relay.


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## legallyflying (Mar 8, 2011)

Budley is right. You want one that tells you why the ppm actually is. You can't set the range on that other one


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## budleydoright (Mar 8, 2011)

My digigro is set at 1300 and 1500 which I'm fine at. i also have their telaire ppm 3 type which I have never changed from the default settings of 1200-1500. So I guess adjustability isn' a big deal for me. The one unit has an external relay and was made for my watercooled burner. Worked perfect. I only mention them as they really helped me get my water heater set up and running when no one else would.


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## mrduke (Mar 8, 2011)

budleydoright said:


> Go on ebay, there are always PPM3s, PPM3 knock offs or telaire based units, digigros etc for just a little more than the ppm4. I have a digigro and popped the relay in it. they sent me an upgraded version at no charge that has the external relay.


how do you go about putting a relay on to somthing like this ? I saw a few but they could only hold a small amp load and for the pump I guess i'll be at least 3 or 4 amps. that was one of the main resons i liked the cap-4 it has a 10 amp load.


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## budleydoright (Mar 8, 2011)

My unit has a 10amp mechanical relay in it. It is basically spliced into a normal 3 prong extension cord and the controller sends the 24v coil voltage to it.

I have seen a DIY on another forum somewhere. this is a good thing to be able to build as much of our equipment draws an inductive load that exceeds the 15 amp resistive load rating on most timers on the market. There are actually very few timers on the market that can safely runm a 1k hps. Using one is playing russian roulette. I put 30amp relays on all of my lights.


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## legallyflying (Mar 9, 2011)

Would love to build a remote trigger and stop trying to get my timers all synched with one another. Then again I think I'm done fucking with my room anymore. Man it's nice when it's all nice and automated. Favorite purchase has to be the condensate pump. Haven't emptied a dehu in 5 months


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## mrduke (Mar 9, 2011)

well i emailed the guy on ebay who sells the digigros at 11;15 last night and this morning had a resopnce from him. pretty sweet so far. He said they do the digis with an heavy duty relay for the same price as w/o and also offer the telaire/ ppm-3 with relay for 279. thats like 50 buck less then the repackaged cap one. Now if I just had 400 bucks laying around i could get this shit ordered and be ready to roll . I do want to try and finish this round w/o co2 hopefully I can avoid the heat of summer long enough, so i can make a comparison of with or without.


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## mrduke (Mar 9, 2011)

one more question for both of you, how much water do you actually run thru the heater on average day or week? just woundering about do a drain to waste instead of recirc. Of course not really waste it would be reused in the yard or kids pools ect.


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## dlively11 (Mar 9, 2011)

That heater for $105 is battery powered FYI in case you didnt know. I would prefer drain to waste too myself. Would be easier, cleaner and cooler. If it only uses like 20-30 gal a day would be no big deal.


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## legallyflying (Mar 9, 2011)

I dunno man, I'm going to cry foul on drain to waste. First it will likely use somewhere in the order of 50 gallons a day. The second thing is that fresh water is an extremely limited and precious resource. Dumping 1500 gallons of water down the drain is pretty lame when you think about it. 

Indoor cultivation has an enormous carbon footprint, increasing the amount of resource use when it can be eliminated for around $60 seems, I dunno, irresponsible? 

I'm not trying to demonize you or tell people what to do but it's something to think about.


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## legallyflying (Mar 9, 2011)

Hey duke, sInce your on track to use co2 soon I though I might pass along that many co2 users don't just crank 1500 all the time as it's not really needed and I have read in several places it can reduce potency and delay maturity in the final weeks. Here is my general co2 schedule:
Clone: none
Early veg: 800
Mid to late veg: 1200
Flip till two weeks till finish: 1500-1600
Last two weeks: 600

From what I gather the different ppm's are mostly a function of what the plant can absorb given it's metabolism and size. It's about availability not cconcentration. Just like nutrients a plant doesn't absorb more because there is more. Not sure what the deal is with potency as certainly plants that go 1500 the whole time are certainly potent. But high co2 will suppress ethylene production. Ethylene is an important compound for fruit ripening. I do need to research it's ties to flower and resin production though


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## cerberus (Mar 9, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I dunno man, I'm going to cry foul on drain to waste. First it will likely use somewhere in the order of 50 gallons a day. The second thing is that fresh water is an extremely limited and precious resource. Dumping 1500 gallons of water down the drain is pretty lame when you think about it.
> 
> Indoor cultivation has an enormous carbon footprint, increasing the amount of resource use when it can be eliminated for around $60 seems, I dunno, irresponsible?
> 
> I'm not trying to demonize you or tell people what to do but it's something to think about.


if you live in the irhgt water shed, and your not treating the water with a chemical, it will run to waste back into your own water supply.. but totally in most cases it would be sent to water treatment plants and such..

and on the co2 thing, there is some speculation about decreased potenency BUT most people that use co2 say they see nothing of the sort. and the sped up growth and meto rate my more than make up for the toxity that is also caused.. speculation mostly..

and finally, don't run to wast, use it as a 2ndary hot water source for your house.


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## legallyflying (Mar 9, 2011)

cerberus said:


> and finally, don't run to wast, use it as a 2ndary hot water source for your house.


Impossible to do. Well not impossible, but technically difficult. You would need some kind of expanding pressurized bladder or something. I mean, you have to have somewhere for the hot water to go as it passes through the generator. If there is not a tap turned on somewhere then there is no space being made available for the hot water.


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## mrduke (Mar 9, 2011)

I was think so what if the water in said resivior is hot Its not really cooling any thing anyway all i need is to have the water avalible to activate the burner in the generator. the exhaused burnt gasses is what im concerned about collecting. That being said how would it matter it the res water temp was 60* or 90*? It would still pass throught the generator and be pruducing waste co2, would the exhaused gasses just be warmer air? 

On a side note I was thinking of mounting the unit out side of my grow room then ducting in the exhausted air/co2 , thus eliminating some of the heat put off by the burners. would that significantly lower the co2 output too?

Once again thanks to all of you guys for helping me and others work thru this setup.


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## sebastopolian (Mar 9, 2011)

Cool set up. Yeah a friend of mine uses that same thing & he heat's his Hot tub with it... Saves money on the not running the tub.


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## legallyflying (Mar 9, 2011)

It would probably lower the co2 a little bit. To be quite honest, it doesn't put off much heat at all. I can hold my hand over the exhaust for as long as I want. That, and it only runs for maybe 2-3 minutes at a time. The other issue you need to think about is that in order for the units to vent properly, you typically can't put an elbow or any horizontal run of pipe off of the exhaust. You will impeded the flow of heat/gasses to the point that it will not work right. Something to that extent, the manual was very clear about exhausting requirements and restrictions. Long story short. Bury the rez outside and mount it in the flower room. You will be fine. 

Fucking love the hot tub idea though. That sounds money!!!


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## cerberus (Mar 9, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Impossible to do. Well not impossible, but technically difficult. You would need some kind of expanding pressurized bladder or something. I mean, you have to have somewhere for the hot water to go as it passes through the generator. If there is not a tap turned on somewhere then there is no space being made available for the hot water.


well you attach it to your standard tank water heater, and use its old tank res. as your secondary rez. I know a guy that runs a double wide this way, I don't. so I don't know the details and honestly a 50 gal. drum barried makes the most since. I'm just saying it can be done..


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## mrduke (Mar 9, 2011)

how do you get to the 55 drum thats burried under 2' of dirt? i assume that the water will evaporate over time. and thats gotto be a big ass hole those drums are like 2 foot dia and 3 feet tall so youhave to dig a 2x3x4 hole. my back already hurts just thinking about it.

what about adding a duct booster to the vent pipe??

hell maybe I'm making this way harder then it needs to be.....but I'm fuckin laaaaazzzzzyyy


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## budleydoright (Mar 9, 2011)

There's no shame in using the old co2 bottle. I went back to it from a WC unit.


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## mrduke (Mar 9, 2011)

i couldn't amagine haveing to go to the welding supply house (about 15 minutes from me) 3-4 times a month. when i can get propane for the same price and it available everywhere. 

do any of you see a reason why the water coming to the unit (from the res.) couldn't be hot. since you both have these units maybe you can see somthing i dont?


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## budleydoright (Mar 9, 2011)

It can be quite warm or even hot and still work quite well. These things will bring a room to 1500 faster than anything else out there. Pick up a 55g barrel and see what happens. If you need to displace some of the heat, a fan blowing over the open barrel can drop it quite a bit. a radiator of some sort off of ebay is used a bit as well. A steel barrel outside in the winter should do it. Last resort or summer use a chiller. I think just 55 gallons will do it though, unless your doing a big room, Plus you have 12 hours for the water to cool..My first water cooled light worked awsome with 50 gallons and no chiller. Even with 110 water the room stayed at 80. I thought i was going to make it work until I read the warnings on the pump and saw that nost aren't made for temps above 85.

for my setup, I only make 3 trips per cycle. 1st one lasts about 5 weeks. then I go through almost 2 in one month.


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## mrduke (Mar 9, 2011)

thanks budley ---- I think I'm set on a telaire (cap ppm 3)279$ controller and the eccotemp 5l portable water heater 106$ already have a drum just need to swing by HF and grab a pump. should be able to be running for less than 450. which is what the first contoller i lookedat was going to cost me... plus rep to all


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## legallyflying (Mar 9, 2011)

Sweet man! Take some pics when you get it all installed!


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## budleydoright (Mar 10, 2011)

I have seen some forum posts where guys ran out of the burner into a salvaged heat exchanger/fan and back into the rez. Or put the exchanger on a seperate pump circuit and use a smaller pump. but like I said, my biggest issue was my pump in the hot water. If your pump fails, no co2. If mine fails no light and at the time almost guaranteed catastrophe.

I'm not sure how good HF is on returns but Lowes is easy. i exchange my 1200 gph fountain pump about once a year. Have never had any problems with the pumps. Just like a fresh one!

I think you'll be pretty good with just a barrel though. Even with hot water, your still putting WAY less heat in your room. Watch that humidity though.

Another thing i did was have a propane supply company build me a hose regulator set with 20ft of hose. It cost me 80 bucks but compared to the cheap chinese regulator and 3 ft. hose that came with the unit it seemd like cheap insurance.


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## cerberus (Mar 10, 2011)

mrduke said:


> how do you get to the 55 drum thats burried under 2' of dirt? i assume that the water will evaporate over time. and thats gotto be a big ass hole those drums are like 2 foot dia and 3 feet tall so youhave to dig a 2x3x4 hole. my back already hurts just thinking about it.
> 
> what about adding a duct booster to the vent pipe??
> 
> hell maybe I'm making this way harder then it needs to be.....but I'm fuckin laaaaazzzzzyyy


if the system is closed you wont lose anywater BUTa hose coming out of the drum to the surface allows a refill. a back hoe makes the back not work as hard. once the work is done, its pretty fucking lazy. the ground acts as a geothermal heat sinc..


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## mrduke (Mar 10, 2011)

thats a good point about the returns maybe i'll look and see what i can get from them or the homo depot. But I'm going with a 55g drumthat i'll put outside which will be on the shady side of the house. I think it will be fine if i need to add a block of ice in a real hot spell thats no biggie


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## cerberus (Mar 10, 2011)

yeah, shade that bad boy, maybe even a drum inside a slightly bigger drum (like people do with plants in pot outdoors).. I guess it depends on how hot it gets where your at, if your in the AK I bet that shit matters in reverse like freezing in the winter..

good luck


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## dlively11 (Mar 11, 2011)

Doyou really think it uses 50 gal a day? If you have a 50 gal barrell seems like the water would be really hot after a days use. Would be nice to know how much water they really use in a day on an average sized room like yours. 20-30 gal a day wouldnt be a big deal. Where I live it is all spring water etc, so it would go back to water supply. Wonder if there is a way to measure how much water it is using.


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## legallyflying (Mar 11, 2011)

I just dug a fucking hole in the ground. Took me probably an hour. The top of the drum is level with the ground. I siphon off air into my veg tent so my system runs a little more than normal but I would say that the system uses AT LEAST 50 gallons a night. The water gets between ooh thats kind of warm to damn thats pretty hot. You can actually control how fast the water is moving through the heater (ergo..how hot do you want your shower to be). Mine is probably right in the middle in terms of settings. If I have it turned all the way up then I have some problems with the system triggering and turning on. When I grasp the rubber hose coming out of the heater it is HOT. Like burn your testicles hot. 

I only checked my water once near the end of the cycle and the drum was pretty damn warm. Sping water system would be ideal. in that case you would need to bury a drum or something that is perforated and wrapped in landscape fabric to allow the spring water to seep into it. Then pump from there.


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## mihjaro (Mar 12, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Yeah, your supposed to vent them, but ummm venting the co2 out of the room would kind of defeat the purpose don't cha think? I'm telling you dude, they are the same damn things. "special modifications" my ass. Like what? Water movement turns the burner on. You can adjust the intensity of the burner and you can adjust the water flow. The flame is entirely blue. What could they have possibly changed?


I thought that minimal CO production was the nominal operation for gas combustion and CO over production would only occur during some sort of failure condition. But, I can't find anything to back this up and am certainly not an expert on gas burning appliances. So, don't take this as me thinking you are doing anything wrong.

I'm definitely not trying to question what you've done by not venting the unit. I'd be worried about CO all of the time, but I'm a worrier. You've got your CO alarm so at least if something ever goes awry, you'll know about it. I, also, can't find much in the way of differences between a CO2 generator and a tankless water heater as far as the combustion system goes.

I sure do applaud your setup with a closed loop and buried reservoir. Way to go.


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## legallyflying (Mar 12, 2011)

Well here is the document that I read prior to the un-vented installation. ... A $50 co sensor put all my fears to rest. Not a peep from it yet. Not even 1 PPM.

1.4.3 Emissions3-4
The emissions from natural gas-fired boilers and furnaces include nitrogen oxides (NOx), carbon
monoxide (CO), and carbon dioxide (CO2), methane (CH4), nitrous oxide (N2O), volatile organic
compounds (VOCs), trace amounts of sulfur dioxide (SO2), and particulate matter (PM).

Nitrogen Oxides -
Nitrogen oxides formation occurs by three fundamentally different mechanisms. The principal
mechanism of NOx formation in natural gas combustion is thermal NOx. The thermal NOx mechanism
occurs through the thermal dissociation and subsequent reaction of nitrogen (N2) and oxygen (O2)
molecules in the combustion air. Most NOx formed through the thermal NOx mechanism occurs in the high
temperature flame zone near the burners. The formation of thermal NOx is affected by three furnace-zone
factors: (1) oxygen concentration, (2) peak temperature, and (3) time of exposure at peak temperature. As
these three factors increase, NOx emission levels increase. The emission trends due to changes in these
factors are fairly consistent for all types of natural gas-fired boilers and furnaces. Emission levels vary
considerably with the type and size of combustor and with operating conditions (e.g., combustion air
temperature, volumetric heat release rate, load, and excess oxygen level).

The second mechanism of NOx formation, called prompt NOx, occurs through early reactions of
nitrogen molecules in the combustion air and hydrocarbon radicals from the fuel. Prompt NOx reactions
occur within the flame and are usually negligible when compared to the amount of NOx formed through the
thermal NOx mechanism. However, prompt NOx levels may become significant with ultra-low-NOx
burners.

The third mechanism of NOx formation, called fuel NOx, stems from the evolution and reaction of
fuel-bound nitrogen compounds with oxygen. Due to the characteristically low fuel nitrogen content of
natural gas, NOx formation through the fuel NOx mechanism is insignificant.

*Carbon Monoxide -
The rate of CO emissions from boilers depends on the efficiency of natural gas combustion.
Improperly tuned boilers and boilers operating at off-design levels decrease combustion efficiency resulting
in increased CO emissions. In some cases, the addition of NOx control systems such as low NOx burners
and flue gas recirculation (FGR) may also reduce combustion efficiency, resulting in higher CO emissions
relative to uncontrolled boilers.*

Volatile Organic Compounds -
The rate of VOC emissions from boilers and furnaces also depends on combustion efficiency.
VOC emissions are minimized by combustion practices that promote high combustion temperatures, long
residence times at those temperatures, and turbulent mixing of fuel and combustion air. Trace amounts of
VOC species in the natural gas fuel (e.g., formaldehyde and benzene) may also contribute to VOC
emissions if they are not completely combusted in the boiler.

Sulfur Oxides -
*Emissions of SO2 from natural gas-fired boilers are low because pipeline quality natural gas
typically has sulfur levels of 2,000 grains per million cubic feet. *However, sulfur-containing odorants are
added to natural gas for detecting leaks, leading to small amounts of SO2 emissions. Boilers combusting
unprocessed natural gas may have higher SO2 emissions due to higher levels of sulfur in the natural gas.
For these units, a sulfur mass balance should be used to determine SO2 emissions.
7/98 External Combustion Sources 1.4-3

Particulate Matter -
Because natural gas is a gaseous fuel, filterable PM emissions are typically low. Particulate
matter from natural gas combustion has been estimated to be less than 1 micrometer in size and has
filterable and condensable fractions. Particulate matter in natural gas combustion are usually larger
molecular weight hydrocarbons that are not fully combusted. Increased PM emissions may result from
poor air/fuel mixing or maintenance problems.

Greenhouse Gases -6-9
CO2, CH4, and N2O emissions are all produced during natural gas combustion. *In properly tuned
boilers, nearly all of the fuel carbon (99.9 percent) in natural gas is converted to CO2 during the
combustion process. **This conversion is relatively independent of boiler or combustor type. Fuel carbon
not converted to CO2 results in CH4, CO, and/or VOC emissions and is due to incomplete combustion.
Even in boilers operating with poor combustion efficiency, the amount of CH4, CO, and VOC produced is
insignificant compared to CO2 levels.*
Formation of N2O during the combustion process is affected by two furnace-zone factors. N2O
emissions are minimized when combustion temperatures are kept high (above 1475oF) and excess oxygen is
kept to a minimum (less than 1 percent).
Methane emissions are highest during low-temperature combustion or incomplete combustion, such
as the start-up or shut-down cycle for boilers. Typically, conditions that favor formation of N2O also favor
emissions of methane.


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## mihjaro (Mar 12, 2011)

Thank you, sir, for setting the issue to rest for me. I expected no less.


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## mrduke (Mar 12, 2011)

O.K guys the questions keep coming. As i stand i have a digigro controller on the way with a eccotemp 5l water heater following close behind. By the way thank you budley for the recommendation on the digigro, the guys there seam to be top notch even offered to sell me a cap ppm-3 for the same price 279 shipped. 
Now i just have to reconfigure the room to adapt to a sealed environment. i have a window style AC which i assume will loose some Co2 but whatever I'm gonna need it. So do i need to seal up both of my intakes???? I want to be able to vent fresh air in like once an hour for 15 minutes through the night, Or do i should i just run no vents??the lights are all sealed pretty well, but I'm going to touch that up a bit when i get there. I have panda film on the walls but if I run the exhaust without at least one 6" vent i will pull it right off the wall. what do i do?


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## legallyflying (Mar 12, 2011)

There is absolutely positively no reason to vent your room. 
Period. 

That should clear things up. 

Ps don't sweat the window unit. I have the same thing going on.


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## budleydoright (Mar 13, 2011)

mrduke said:


> O.K guys the questions keep coming. As i stand i have a digigro controller on the way with a eccotemp 5l water heater following close behind. By the way thank you budley for the recommendation on the digigro, the guys there seam to be top notch even offered to sell me a cap ppm-3 for the same price 279 shipped.
> Now i just have to reconfigure the room to adapt to a sealed environment. i have a window style AC which i assume will loose some Co2 but whatever I'm gonna need it. So do i need to seal up both of my intakes???? I want to be able to vent fresh air in like once an hour for 15 minutes through the night, Or do i should i just run no vents??the lights are all sealed pretty well, but I'm going to touch that up a bit when i get there. I have panda film on the walls but if I run the exhaust without at least one 6" vent i will pull it right off the wall. what do i do?


 
Glad, they hooked you up. The guy there has given me support for things they don't even sell.

I use a window unit and don't believe it looses much if any.

You can vent at night for humidity control, but a dehuey is probably in your future anyway! Your putting in the effort, you may as well enjoy ALL of the benefits of going sealed.

_" I have panda film on the walls but if I run the exhaust without at least one 6" vent i will pull it right off the wall. what do i do?" _

You can buy a self closing vent, but again......


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## mrduke (Mar 13, 2011)

thanks guys thats kinda what i thought anyways. Andi alreadyhave a dehu. so should be set once it all here to rock in roll


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## mrduke (Mar 24, 2011)

FUCK YEAH!!!!!!!!!!

Well every thing came in the mail on monday and I finally got my lazy ass around to installing it late last night. So its like this a Harbor freight 1/6 hp sump pump feeding a Ecotemp 5L water heater ran by a digigro co2 controller. Once it was all hooked up and tested for leaks, I gave her a test run. This shit is the real deal no doubt. my ambeiant co level is about 430 ppm. So on goes the heater it fires right up and runs for less then 2 minutes and shuts off when co2 level reaches 1500, but continues to climb to 1700+. As it is now my room isn't sealled at all I just turned off the exhaust but left the vents open, tonight I'll fix those. the Co2 level falls pretty quick with them open, with a bit of duct tape and some spray foam I should be good to go. If i can find a camera I'll get up a few pics.

Thanks again to everyone who has helped and mostly to Leagally Flying for show people the light


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## legallyflying (Mar 24, 2011)

Nice! They are pretty fucking dope. And thanks to you sir for restoring my faith that there are actually serious growers on this site that can see the advantages of a set up, spend the cash, and do it right. I was half worried this thread would degenerate into discussion about using sugar and yeast to make co2. 

You will REALLY see the advantage of a sealed room this summer. No warm intake air, just set the AC and forget about it. A nice big dehu will keep it dry and warm at night. Best of all, your going to shit yourself when you see what 85 degrees and 1500 ppm does to a two-three week old plant. Prepare to be shocked every morning!


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## mrduke (Mar 25, 2011)

hey LF i was just wondering how often does yours run? My room is about the same size as yours it 11x7x7, and last night it was turning on ever 15 minutes or so. Now i know my room is not perfectly SEALED but it looks to be pretty close, no major holes, the walls are wrapped in panda which has some staple holes. does it matter where the controller is mounted? mine isabout a foot below the gen. and 2 feet to the side, should i move it further away? would that help get a truer co2 reading, there are plenty of fans moving the air around.


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## legallyflying (Mar 25, 2011)

Well logic dictates that the position of the sensor would mostly affect how accurate the ppm's are but shouldn't affect the cycling time. The co2 is rising with the heat of the gen and then gets circulated by the fans. Having your controller below and adjacent would "delay" the time it takes for the co2 to reach the controller (in theory) as the gas has to expand and move around the room before making it's way to the sensor. The bigger the delay between production and sensing, the more it's going to climb after shutting off. As long as your only climbing around 200 I think your fine. 

My sensor is mounted at the same height but in the other side of the room. Initially I would climb 400 ppm after shut down so I lowered the flame. This helped but there was still a big climb. So then I just hung a fan from the ceiling about 2 feet from the gen, pointing at the sensor. This helped quite a bit. 

You could try turning down the ppm to 1300. Then you will be in the 1200-1500 range which is just dandy. I think you would have to be at 90 and LOTS of light to really see an advantage of higher than 1500. Like nutrients, having more doesn't trigger more uptake. But every 15 seems about right. My room is surgically sealed (I'm actually pulling in co2 laden air into my adjacent veg tent- which works pretty damn well) and there is a filtered passive outdoor air intake in my flower room to facilitate air movement into the veg area. 

This situation helps decrease night temps in full on mega flower when I have both dehumidifiers running, and helps keep nighttime temps up in the veg tent as my tent is just panda in the basement. My gen cycles about 2 min (max) about every 10. 

I bet that after watching that ppm monitor you now understand how difficult it would be to get it right using a timer or yeast bucket or piping cow farts into your room. How are your temps in the sealed situation? Make sure you are calibrating your air con set temperature to your canopy temp. With my AC set at 81, my canopy stays at 85


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## mrduke (Mar 25, 2011)

thanks leagally i was concerned that every 15 miniutes or so was to much but it sounds about right now. My temps top out at canopy level between 83-85. just filled the tank so we'll see how long the propane tank lasts. Sounds to me like I'm off and running with co2 started at day11 of flower ++++++ rep again if i could


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## budleydoright (Mar 26, 2011)

Hows your water temps and what are you using for a cooling rez?

Overshoot can be an issue with the water cooled units because the produce so much so fast. Set it to the lowest or coldest setting.


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## mrduke (Mar 26, 2011)

budleydoright said:


> Hows your water temps and what are you using for a cooling rez?
> 
> right now I'm useing nothing but the cold day temps it gets to about 85 then cools off to 70ish I still need to figure somthing out for summer time.
> 
> Overshoot can be an issue with the water cooled units because the produce so much so fast. Set it to the lowest or coldest setting.


yeah its already set at lowest gas setting and highest water flow. not much inthe way of heat it only runs for about a minute and a half every 15 min or so. I'm stocked for sure


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## boomdawg (Apr 13, 2011)

This is the thread where I will bust my first post cherry on! Thanks LF for what you do! I will be cloning this set up soon and got a question or two.
I have about twice the CF as you (around 1000+CF). Is the 6L gonna do the trick and just turn the burner(s) up? Or should I step up to like a 10L? A while back I was looking at the burners at the hydro shop and thought about it but passed thinking its too hot, if only there was a water cooled route. Well Fuck yeah there is!
Thanks again and good job!


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## legallyflying (Apr 13, 2011)

6l should be fine. I have it turned down to the lowest possible setting. If it generates too much Co2 it will just overshoot the ppm mark. Meaning it is cranking out co2 really fast there is a lag between the time that the meter senses the ppm and shuts off and when the rest of the co2 "gets to" the meter. the higher the burn rate the more the overshooot. The 6 liter produces PLENTY of co2. Unless your room is massive it will work just fine.


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## mrduke (Apr 13, 2011)

i must agree with LF my room is 11x7x7 and i have a even small heater than his and it only runs for about 1.5 minutes but still passes the designed shut off of 1500ppm and will raise to about 1650 or so. these things rock for sure.


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## legallyflying (Apr 13, 2011)

Hey duke, can you post a pic when you get a chance? I feel like we are leading somekind of movement against grower price gouging


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## boomdawg (Apr 13, 2011)

Ok so with the massive, rapid and abundant Co2, overshoot of the 6l and even the 5l (thanks mrduke) its a non issue. Got it. Sweet. I wonder if the 5l mrduke has would work but just take a bit longer and probably still overshoot?

I have a sealed room(s) kind of like yours in a way I think. Flower room then scrub to veg room and then back to flower room via a 3" thick Styrofoam 4'x4x4' ac air transfer chamber (all sealed)(except heat exhaust out the back) . Since the whole system is sealed and theres now abundant free c02  should I just leave all the fans on including the one scrubber fan/room transfer fans, recirc fans, etc all the time during day (co2 cycle) and nite as well? I mean shit its essentially free now so gas the whole thing during lights on and the residual can supplement the veg room... 

Thanks for chiming back in mrduke and thanks for the info on the digi co2 monitor!  I am wondering also about your reservoir temps (or really if its even an issue?) as I will be doing the shady side 50 gal above ground res. too. No choice concrete....

This kind of internet grassroots shit just kicks ass! Whatever I do I try to do it as cheap as possible and do as much of the work myself as possible. I like being able to get items at hydro shops but i cannot afford to pay their retirement as well.  Their prices are not reasonable unless you catch some sale for big ticket stuff. For example a fucking burner (the smallest one 1G someshit) was like 4 bone with tax. WTF and no water cooling with that either. i can get a BBQ for a third of that. This was a discount hydro shop too. Anyway they are all making millions off the people selling their shit on Craigsbay. Dont get me wrong we need them as well as the dispensaries but they too overcharge everyone. So the message is "DIY"!


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## mrduke (Apr 13, 2011)

yeah id love to but my druken wife lost the camera again that make like 5 in as many years. The only issue i ran into with this setup is a sump pump would loose pressure once the heater limited the flow, so i had to switch to a transfer pump. Just a inline style about the same as a sump cost me 80 buck no biggie. Another different thing i did is to keep the res in the room so the temp is a bit of a struggle, its not bad so far but come summer i'll need a chiller, which means i'll be adding more damn heat. And hell yes Im all for killing the price gouging that happens day in and day out, one step at a time


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## boomdawg (Apr 13, 2011)

What size sump pump did you use? Also LF mentioned initially he used a 1/2 HP pump and then linked a 1/4 HP pump later http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-hp-115-volt-submersible-water-pump-98342.html Not sure which to use. Sorry if I missed that somewhere?
Maybe a higher rated sumper would have worked? Did you get a schurflo transfer pump? Those are cool. They have AC and DC versions.
On the plus you could probably use your res an an indoor spa! Call the wife out to the garage with margaritas and


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## legallyflying (Apr 14, 2011)

I am using the one in the link. works like a charm, never had a problem with it. even with the drum burried the water still gets hot as fuck by the end of the night. Do I care? No. Does it still work like a charm. Yes. 

Man, if you could recycle the water through a hot tub...now THAT would be fucking money!! 

Damn, I'm actually going to think about that one.


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## mrduke (Apr 14, 2011)

my little water heater has a pressure regulator built into it so if there isn't enought pressure it shuts off. it also has a overheating sensor so if the water temp coming in is to high it will shut off too. I dont know if these are features only on the eccotemp heaters or not. 

yeah my water is plenty warm after a light cycle but not hot enought to shut it off and after 12 hours in a 65* roomat night it cools right off.

I use flotec 1/12 hp utility pump. i tried three different sumps and none of them would maintain constant pressure once it was regulated down by the heater.

and if the wife comes into the garage she get margaritas and not


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## boomdawg (Apr 14, 2011)

LF- Your repeat mention of heating the spa is also an inspiring idea! Why not run your lines into the spa versus the underground tank? And supplementing the spa heater will make it all worthwhile untilizing that energy! I guess the big problem would be if the spa is nearby? 
On that note I had a pre med brainstorm. Has anyone given thought of using the co2 from the house water heater? You could Y off the vent and get one of those vents that open and close electronically and a blower fan and hook it all up to the controller! Distance is probably key here as well and Im guessing you would need an older pilot light water heater? I dont know just a thought.


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## boomdawg (Apr 14, 2011)

LOL MrDuke!
Ok I am gonna do it a tad different. Component wise I am going to clone your (LF) set up minus the co2 controller Ill use Digi.
For the tank I am going to try a large liquid food tank that i scooped up a while back. Its like 300 gallons. My idea is to use more water to keep water temps down. I know it probably doesnt matter but WTF I have the tank. Ill throw a pic of it later. Now I am hoping this works but really dont know if more H20 will make a difference. One reason I am not sure is my aeroponic cloner initially had water covering the pump and I thought add more water and it would lower temps. It did not lower cloner temps and ambient temps were the same. I cant explain that... I am 2-4 weeks out on this project and will post back when I gettit done.


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## budleydoright (Apr 15, 2011)

No doubt the more water you have the better and cooler your temps. I think the point I have tried to make is that the water temp while it does matter, will not keep the burner from working well if it gets hot. they still remove an incredible amount of heat.

I think a chiller is overkill for a burner, I bet a simple heat exchanger and fan will do the trick. If you go with a chiller, you may as well try to chill your lights as well. Be easy to build your own icebox type heat exchanger. I'm a total DIY type, and have been thinking about building something along these lines.


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## legallyflying (Apr 15, 2011)

Simple physics my friend. Your water (no matter how much, will equalize to ambient temps). Your increase above ambient will decrease with increasing water volume. House water heater..possible but difficulties are serious. One it's cycling on and off all the time but the biggest issue is getting the exhaust to the room
The flows have to be just right not to fuck with combustion and you would have to go horizontal pretty quickly and that is generally a no no unless it was designed for it. Lastly, the gas would be much hotter as it doesnt flow through a heat exchanger like the tankless does


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## mrduke (Apr 15, 2011)

budleydoright said:


> No doubt the more water you have the better and cooler your temps. I think the point I have tried to make is that the water temp while it does matter, will not keep the burner from working well if it gets hot. they still remove an incredible amount of heat.
> 
> I think a chiller is overkill for a burner, I bet a simple heat exchanger and fan will do the trick. If you go with a chiller, you may as well try to chill your lights as well. Be easy to build your own icebox type heat exchanger. I'm a total DIY type, and have been thinking about building something along these lines.


what is this heat exchanger you talk about? I've been thinking of a chiller but really dont want to drop 400 plus run like 5 more amps of power half the day.do you have some links or a place to buy one of these .


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## budleydoright (Apr 15, 2011)

Best cost growers makers of the fresca sol make the heat extractor but really all we're talking about here is a water to air heat exchanger. Do a search on ebay. It could be a heater core or a radiator for a car.

You could also make my 100 air conditioner chiller. they will last a few years

. 
Anybody can make one., and it will certainly get you through the heat of the summer. Probably only run for a few minutes an hour.


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## guy incognito (Apr 27, 2011)

Awesome thread. My room is about 10' X 20' X 7', with 3 tents all 4x4. Air cooled lights pulling outside air and dumping to outside. I am on the 2nd floor of the house though with no NG hook up or water hook up. How difficult is it to run a NG pipe? The only access I can think of to my 2nd floor would be through the heating duct from the basement. I can disconnect the duct from the main heating duct (and seal it off there) and just use the duct from the basement to the 2nd floor as a conduit (The duct is unused anyway. It's virtually useless as is without a duct booster). Certainly not to code, but no one will inspect this either as it will be taken back to it's current state when I am finished with this grow location.

Anyway, I have a NG pipe and cold water supply not far from the duct in the basement. I was thinking I could tap into the NG line and run a vertical section of about 12' up to the room. And also run several hoses (one for water supply, one for water drain, and 2 to the tankless water heater). If I keep the reservoir upstairs I have no doubt it will get way too hot. Does it sound reasonable to have the res in my basement, and pump the water up about 25' to the heater and have it drain back down to the res? Is that too high to pump? Or will I need an oversized industrial pump to accomplish this?

I have crops coming in and should recoup several thousand $ in the next couple months. I think it will be worth the $ to reinvest to get a cheap automated co2 system set up. I want to run water and drain lines to the room anyway, and will most likely be using the unused heating duct as a conduit.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated.


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## legallyflying (Apr 27, 2011)

First off, I must say that you better be fairly handy to attempt what your trying to do. I'm not a strict code compliance guy or anything but when dealing with NG you obviously have to be safe for the obvious reasons. You can run the pipe through a wall or through a chase or vent duct but the first thing you have to ask yourself is..can I fit a 12' pipe up there? Like physically get it in there.If you have 8' ceiling you probably can. If not, your going to have to combine pipes as you push them up the chase. 

First things first however... You have to find a joint to T into. So you need to find out where the nearest pipe joint is that you can unthread and put a T into. That is where your obviously going to start. I would bet money that the joint is near your furnace in the basement. 

You will be using the black iron pipe and you use the YELLOW TEFLON TAPE for gas lines not the white stuff used for water lines. Your going to need the following things...1/2 " black iron T, 1/4 turn gas valve, enough 1/2" black iron pipe to get close to your burner location, and a 2' or 4' section of flexible gas line (i.e. dryer connection pipe...they sell it at HD). 

There is no such thing as getting the water "too hot". Or at least I think there isn't . Unless radiant heat from the water drum is going to be an issue I would just put it upstairs. I used rubber garden hose to convey my water too and from the burner. You can find a sump pump that will lift to 25' , water flow shouldn't be too much of an issue, you don't need a whole hell of allot. Your also going to have to run an extension cord from your controller to the pump in the basement. 

Does this help?


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## mrduke (Apr 28, 2011)

If it helps anyone I've been running with my res tank in the room for almost 2 months and its not getting hot at all. It doesgetprettywarm by the end of a 12hour cycle but is cools right off by the time it runs again, but i keep the room at 84 lights on and 68 lights off


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## legallyflying (Apr 28, 2011)

Duke, your running propane right? If your running propane you can probably offset any radiant Rez heat by blowing a fan On the propane tank. The liquid to gas reaction is endothermic so it will absorb heat. Blowing air on the tank could maximize this cooling effect ( or at least the dispersion of cool air)


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## guy incognito (Apr 28, 2011)

My concern with getting too hot is that my room is 10X20X7 with 2,400 watts of lights. I'm afraid a single garbage can of water will be heated up too hot by continuous usage and not have much chance to cool down since it will be located on a second floor in summer. I will have an ac unit running, but still the ambient temperature in the room will be 85* and it will be heated up every time the burner comes on.

My water heater is close to the ducting I want to run in and it has a capped end. The NG line runs to a T, one leg then goes to my hot water heater and one is capped. Would it simply be easier to add the set up on the right side of the picture rather than trying to actually cut in and place a T above the hot water heater where I have space restrictions? I would need a couple extra elbows, and probably 6-7' of vertical pipe, and maybe 6' of horizontal pipe to get to the area where I would ideally install a T, but then I wouldn't have to deal with cutting into a pipe and refitting it for a T. I could just measure everything, get it all cut and threaded at the store, then install it myself by only removing a cap.


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## legallyflying (Apr 28, 2011)

I can't really understand looking at the photo but I will say this... In terms of unscrewing threaded pipe. You can't just unscrew the section you want to replace with something. cause when you grab on and twist it, one end loosens and the other end tightens. If you cut into the pipe that would not be such a big deal as you could cut in and install a T but you will end up "rebuilding" (taking everything apart and putting it back together again), everything downstream of the T you just installed. If that seems like a bummer, then you would install a union. A union is just something that allows you to take the pipes apart and put them back together without actually twisting the pipes. 

Another option that may be worth it is to just run flexible gas line. It is a tad bit more expensive and you will have to get it from a plumbing supply store but it is sooo easy to run. just uncoil and install. Something like this....http://cgi.ebay.com/gas-Flex-1-2-tubing-pipe-KIT-33ft-2-fittings-10376P1-/250810864412?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a657e131c

With some determination, a hole saw, a wiring snake, and a jar of vaseline you could probably snake that right through an interior wall.


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## guy incognito (Apr 28, 2011)

The pipe on the left side of the drawing (on the bottom) terminates in a cap. I have a capped gasline pointing at the ground next to my water heater, immediately after it tees off and feeds into the water heater. I assume this cap, like all other caps i've encountered, simply screws and unscrews on the pipe it's connected on. The second portion (right side) of the drawing would be brand new piping I would install in place of that cap. It would essentially run parallel but in the opposite direction of the main feed for about 6-7 feet vertically, then another 6' horizontally. From that point the plan will be the same whether I run this new piping or install a tee on the main feed.

The main feed at that location is semi blocked by a wall that is 3' away from the basement wall giving restricted access to the straight run of the pipe. The actual portion of the pipe with threads on it is further hidden behind a bathroom that was added on after the gas line was in place, so the threads are totally inaccessible. It was my understanding that I needed to cut into a length of pipe, then unthread both sections, and replace when it's been fitted with a tee. Having such limited space around the pipe requiring the cut, and no access to the threaded portion seems like it will take a relatively straight forward job and make it difficult. I'm unsure how I would even accomplish this, hence me thinking it might be cheaper and easier to just connect to the tee at the water heater and run an additional 14' of pipe with a few elbows.

For all that hassle and work it might be worthwhile to go flexible tubing. I was under the impression that you could not get access to it and it had to be installed by a professional though.


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## guy incognito (Apr 28, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> With some determination, a hole saw, a wiring snake, and a jar of vaseline you could probably snake that right through an interior wall.


I'm pretty sure i'm just going to disconnect the vent from the furnace system and use the vent as a conduit since I also need to run water and a drain. I won't require water, drain, or gas when this room is no longer the grow room, so I can remove all the lines easily too and reconnect the furnace when i'm done.


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## legallyflying (Apr 28, 2011)

Yeah, much much easier to just start the new piping from the exiting cap. take the cap off, shut your gas off, then install a 1/4 turn valve. THen you can turn your gas back on and take your time installing it. If your setup allows, I would probably bend (smash) the vent a little and just run your lines adjacent to the vent rather than in them for a number of different reasons I won't get into.

The flexible line regulations are kind of weird. its like a scuba. you don't NEED a padi license to go diving but you can't get a tank refilled without one...On two separate occasions I have walked into a plumbing store and purchased corugated SS gas line. the first time they said nothing, the second time they started this whole "ummm, you need to have a certification to install this, not sure if we can sell it to you". I said "you sold it to me 6 months ago....". the manager came out, looked at me, and said yeah, ok no problem. 

It's not rocket science to install that tubing but it does take some understanding and concentration to install the fittings on the end of the pipe in a manner that they are not going to leak. Its this weird compression type of fitting where little sleeves fit in the grooves of the corrugated pipe and then as you tighten the fitting, the end of the tube gets pushed into the joint and it seals. Basically you have to use a hack saw and make a straight smooth cut through the pipe in order for it to seal properly. took me several tries the first time but the other times it went off without a hitch. 

Probably best to just use black steel pipe to get the line to the point where it is going to go upstairs and then go flexible line from there.


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## Ghost214 (Apr 28, 2011)

Got a ?, maybe its been talked about, or just an off the wall ?. i was inspired by your design and was thinking. I have a conventional natural gas hot water tank, would it be as simple as running the exhaust from that into my grow room?? Something tells me no but wanted to see what you thought about it. i dont think it would be a good idea, no idea what other stuff is being released like carbon monoxide and what not.


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## legallyflying (Apr 29, 2011)

The biggest issue is that you can't control the output. I think I already addressed this actually. When you start fucking with the ducting on gas appliances you change the venting efficiency. This can cause issues with burner performance, perhaps to the extent that you start producing CO. 

Read my earlier post about element concentrations in gas appliances. Virtually no CO


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## budleydoright (May 1, 2011)

Ghost214 said:


> Got a ?, maybe its been talked about, or just an off the wall ?. i was inspired by your design and was thinking. I have a conventional natural gas hot water tank, would it be as simple as running the exhaust from that into my grow room?? Something tells me no but wanted to see what you thought about it. i dont think it would be a good idea, no idea what other stuff is being released like carbon monoxide and what not.


 
Likely cheaper in the long run to just use a heater. If you're in a unique situation, are handy and creative, it can and has been done. You still need a controller and a couple of 24V actuated dampers. When you need Co2 your hot water heater will need to be runnng so you may need a valve to drain some water to make it fire.


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## Ghost214 (May 4, 2011)

thanks for the info. i think there are better options out there for me, maybe more expensive, but at least it will be right(I know that is a matter of opinion, dont really think there is a right or wrong way with a lot of things). But seriously thank you to everyone on here that is willing to help people out. I know that when i can help, i will!!


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## guy incognito (May 10, 2011)

So how much has your gas bill gone up since you've been running this?


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## legallyflying (May 10, 2011)

Hard to tell because it's winter time and I have gas heat. Maybe $20...maybe. Put it this way, it hasn't been any higher than last years bills. NG is damn cheap. Waaaaaaay cheaper than propane.


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## budleydoright (May 10, 2011)

Even running propane it's lots less than compressed co2. I go through almost 3 bottles of compressed @ 20.ea per cycle a 5lb tank of propane used to last me 2-3 cycles.


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## mrduke (May 10, 2011)

agreeed with budley i can get 10-12 weeks of 12/12 out of a propane tank


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## guy incognito (May 12, 2011)

Natural gas is mostly methane which is CH4. It is priced by the thousand cubic feet for usually around $11 for residential. 1,000 cubic feet gives you 44.6 lbs of natural gas. 

(35.31 cubic feet in 1 cubic meter
1000 Liters in 1 cubic meter
one mole of gas at ideal conditions occupies 22.4 L
Methane has a molecular weight of 16
453.6 grams per pound.)

One methane molecule gives you one co2 molecule. The molecular wt of methane and co2 are 16 and 44 respectively. So every unit of natural gas turns into 44/16 units of co2.

44.6 lbs of NG (for about $11) turns into 122.6 lbs of CO2

Propane is C3H8 with a molecular wt of 44 and turns into 3 CO2 molecules each at 44. So each unit of propane turns into 3 units of CO2. 122.6 lbs of CO2 would require 40.87 lbs of propane, or about 2 normal bbq tank fulls (probably $30-40).

122.6 lbs of CO2 would require 122.6 lbs of compressed CO2, or about 6 tank fulls from a 20-lb tank. No idea what a 20 lb fill up of CO2 costs but its probably a lot more than $2.


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## legallyflying (May 12, 2011)

Nicely done!! A 20lb co2 tank costs $16 in the city to refill. So its safe to say that NG burner is 800% cheaper than bottled Co2? 

For those staring blankly at the screen and your NG bill. You probably see cost per therm. A therm is equal to 100 cubic feet. Incognito, you must live near me as my gas is 1.15 per therm. Pretty damn close to your $11 per 1,000 cubic feet estimate.


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## guy incognito (May 13, 2011)

I just looked up the average cost in the usa. I don't even receive hard copies of my gas bill, it gets automatically billed. I see the charge every month in my email, but i'm not even sure of the units I get charged in. I don't think you could say it's 800% cheaper; wouldn't 100% cheaper be $0? But you could say bottled is about 800% more expensive to run compared with NG. 

I'm going to set this thing up real soon. Should pay for itself within the first month.


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## boomdawg (May 15, 2011)

Well Fuck yeah again!
Up and running tonight!
Ill post a pic or two later when I wake up.
I seem to be cycling more often than you guys. About every 5 minutes between pump/gen on/off. Is that ok or should I lower monitor for more overshoot/longer cycle? Overshoot is minimal (1540) and my digigro telaire is mounted as high as the gen exhaust but opposite side room. Run time is less than 2 minutes until off at 1500ppm.
Temps are running 85ish with dehumid at 50%. 
Way stoked!
Thanks LF and also Budley for the advice.


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## legallyflying (May 16, 2011)

You could go for a little more overshoot and reduce cycle times. probably 6 of one half dozen of another. It would cycle less but stay on a little longer. Your temps humidity sound good so maybe just try it and see what heppens. Sounds pretty dialed though. Glad to share the stoke. They are pretty pimp. Now you can throw your cylinder out the window


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## guy incognito (May 16, 2011)

I ordered the same heater and pump as legally. Just got my heater in the mail yesterday. Now I just need to get a gasline up there and ill be in business.


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## boomdawg (May 17, 2011)

Couple pics for the gang.. pic #1 is my cloned LF set up. pic #2 is my cloned Budley set up. Thanks bros....


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## boomdawg (May 17, 2011)

LF, I lost you in the fog at, "*probably 6 of one half dozen of another.".... 
What is the best way to get more overshoot??? 
Thanks again man.
*


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## legallyflying (May 17, 2011)

Looks like you have the identical unit that I have so there are two ways to increase the rate that co2 is produced. The "winter" setting will use both sides of burners and really jack up the rate, I would keep it on summer and just crank up the "heat" or "temp" knob which just increases gas flow. The water knob adjusts the flow rate of the water through the unit which is a little moot. 

Two notes on that unit. The springs in the battery compartment in mine had to be stretched a little bit to ensure good contact and with my pump, if I have the water flow set too high the unit won't switch on. Also depending on elevations, a siphon can start and the unit won't shut off but it sounds like you don't have this prob.

Congrats on the install. Nice, clean, and pro install. Always the sign of a quality grower!


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## budleydoright (May 17, 2011)

That chiller is friggen perfect. Make sure to keep the coil covered with water. It can evaporate fast. Also make sure you have about an 8 ph or just city water that is already buffered to minimize interaction with the copper.

I think I'm going to expand my space so I'll likely break out the old marey 5l.


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## woodsusa (May 17, 2011)

Great thread. I'm definitely going to look into this.


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## boomdawg (May 17, 2011)

Ill give the springs a good looksy and make sure they have good contact.. Havent had the siphon issue yet. im wondering now how i can mitigate that potential problem. At least its on a timer so it would only run for 12 hrs......
also my unit is the LPG one so maybe its different, or something...? 

Hey so is a CO2 depletion rate of 200 PPM in 5 minutes acceptable? 

I wish I had the signs of a quality grower... My mover got stuck (long story) and burned some plants pretty good.. looks like they are gonna make it to the finish but still... blehh... Dont see any bananas yet so maybe i got lucky? Maybe one day I will graduate from padewan...?

Thanks



legallyflying said:


> Looks like you have the identical unit that I have so there are two ways to increase the rate that co2 is produced. The "winter" setting will use both sides of burners and really jack up the rate, I would keep it on summer and just crank up the "heat" or "temp" knob which just increases gas flow. The water knob adjusts the flow rate of the water through the unit which is a little moot.
> 
> Two notes on that unit. The springs in the battery compartment in mine had to be stretched a little bit to ensure good contact and with my pump, if I have the water flow set too high the unit won't switch on. Also depending on elevations, a siphon can start and the unit won't shut off but it sounds like you don't have this prob.
> 
> Congrats on the install. Nice, clean, and pro install. Always the sign of a quality grower!


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## boomdawg (May 17, 2011)

Yeah Im pretty happy with this chiller too! Its been cold since set up so I have been leaving it off as to increase my water/room temps. Just barely hit 82 in room last night.. but the cold will soon be gone...Still waiting for the sheet metal hvac vent/cover..

So my next thing is a custom Icebox with like a Fleabay radiator. That should piss of Highdoefarm/China big time! Was wondering if anyone has any experience here? In my situation my chiller is right below my hood line intake, so it would be real easy to mount up a radiator right there on the wall. Now the Icebox calls for the unit to be installed at the exit of the light(s). So I am wondering if the unit will work at all if I install on the wall at the lite intake or opposite end? Because Im on movers I have to go this route.. I know my temps are a tad low now but that wont be for very long, which makes me think, if I dump the light exhaust inside temporarily how much will my temps go up? anyhow maybe Ill do a thread on this when I get some more research done..
Thanks man



budleydoright said:


> That chiller is friggen perfect. Make sure to keep the coil covered with water. It can evaporate fast. Also make sure you have about an 8 ph or just city water that is already buffered to minimize interaction with the copper.
> 
> I think I'm going to expand my space so I'll likely break out the old marey 5l.


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## legallyflying (May 17, 2011)

PPM's typically drop pretty quick. You would know if you had a siphon because the water would continue to flow through the unit and thus just burning and burning and burning. A siphon happens when the outlet of the hose is below the water level of the tank you are drawing from. This is the case in my rezervoir for my bucket based ebb and grow. The pumo turns on and water flows into the buckets. when the pump shuts off, the weight of the water flowing through it creates a vacuum and it draws more water from the rez..and it jsut keeps drawing.

The way you prevent it is that you have to have a way to get a little air into the system. I drilled a tiny little hole in the fill tube, just before it leaves the rez (obviously higher than the highest water level) (I actually used a double barbed hose connector to pass through the wall of the rez) and just drilled a hole in it. When the pump turns on, a small stream of water comes out of the hole, no biggie. But then the pump turns off....the water "falling" through the hose draws air into that hole, and therefore, the "falling" water does not have the ability to vaccum up more water. Therefore...no siphon.


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## mrduke (May 17, 2011)

thought i'd check in too. Mine is still running strong and keeping the girls happy. for those of you with chillers or people who think they need one, well you very much might not. I have a 55g drum setting directly under the heater, the temps will climb to about 95 but quickly drop to ambient in the night cycle, even in a 18/6 veg. Yes 95 is a bit hot for a tank full of water but your already running AC so, so what


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## budleydoright (May 17, 2011)

boomdawg said:


> Yeah Im pretty happy with this chiller too! Its been cold since set up so I have been leaving it off as to increase my water/room temps. Just barely hit 82 in room last night.. but the cold will soon be gone...Still waiting for the sheet metal hvac vent/cover..
> 
> So my next thing is a custom Icebox with like a Fleabay radiator. That should piss of Highdoefarm/China big time! Was wondering if anyone has any experience here? In my situation my chiller is right below my hood line intake, so it would be real easy to mount up a radiator right there on the wall. Now the Icebox calls for the unit to be installed at the exit of the light(s). So I am wondering if the unit will work at all if I install on the wall at the lite intake or opposite end? Because Im on movers I have to go this route.. I know my temps are a tad low now but that wont be for very long, which makes me think, if I dump the light exhaust inside temporarily how much will my temps go up? anyhow maybe Ill do a thread on this when I get some more research done..
> Thanks man


I'm just going to find suitable sized heat exchanger, have a shroud made and start experimenting. I know hydroinnovations has something like this in the works.



mrduke said:


> thought i'd check in too. Mine is still running strong and keeping the girls happy. for those of you with chillers or people who think they need one, well you very much might not. I have a 55g drum setting directly under the heater, the temps will climb to about 95 but quickly drop to ambient in the night cycle, even in a 18/6 veg. Yes 95 is a bit hot for a tank full of water but your already running AC so, so what


i bet a small ford heater core and a decent fan on it would drop it quite a bit if you ever need it. I always thought that a passive system would work with a co2 gen though.


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## boomdawg (May 17, 2011)

Cool deal Duke. Yeah I noticed no ill effects w/o chiller. Im thinking of taking nice warm 90 degree showers on the side of my house now with that water! Hope the neighbors dont see my big ass!  I made a chiller for a few other things that are still in the works. Sounds like you got your set up dialed. I would only be concerned about over cycling the DH with the rez inside room if its humid where u are. 



mrduke said:


> thought i'd check in too. Mine is still running strong and keeping the girls happy. for those of you with chillers or people who think they need one, well you very much might not. I have a 55g drum setting directly under the heater, the temps will climb to about 95 but quickly drop to ambient in the night cycle, even in a 18/6 veg. Yes 95 is a bit hot for a tank full of water but your already running AC so, so what


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## mrduke (May 18, 2011)

the res has a lid on it so humidity isn't effected hardly at all


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## guy incognito (May 19, 2011)

Did you just use standard 1/2" hose and use adapters to hook up water lines to the unit? 

What size is the ng hookup on that aquah unit? If I get a standard appliance hookup will it have the proper sized fitting or will I need to get adapters?

Edit: actually a garden hose is 5/8"


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## legallyflying (May 19, 2011)

Pretty much all appliance hook ups are standard but there are two sizes. I believe this one is 5/8. For my hose I just bought a rubber garden hose. real rubber not that plastic shit. Then I went to the hardware isle and bought two 1/2" to 5/8 barbed thingies... Done.


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## boomdawg (May 21, 2011)

Heads up my HP pump as noted above took a shit. 
I noticed very limited to nil water flow so after checking everything else I topsided the pump. Noticed it was blowin air/water out of the midway point joint and that a screw was backed almost all the way out. Also the bearings were audibly shot! It sounded like rock wheels on the street on my first skateboard. Yes I am that old. 
Forgot to cover the rez and noticed i was starting a lovely new algae bloom...
It may be partially my fault by subjecting it to 90 plus temps + the bloom. But its going back to HF tomorrow and I am gonna go to Lowes I think. 
Just passing it on as I know some peeps are more dependant on pumps than me.
YMMV


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## mrduke (May 21, 2011)

sump pumps are not made to have any back pressure, which the regulator in the heater puts on them. your best bet is to get a inline transfer pump there a bit more money but are made to do what we want.


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## budleydoright (May 21, 2011)

tell me more about this pump. Where to get, how much , GPH? I was using a utility pump from lowes on mine. Worked well, but this same pump seems to be leaking lubricant into my RO water. Inline, does this mean hose in and out. sits outside of the rez?


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## boomdawg (May 21, 2011)

I just lost my post. Something about tokens... Can I bum a token? I think Dukes talking about something like Schurflos. Ac and DC and both and all over the bay. They are the cats meow of fresh water transfer. I have one. They have 2-3+ GPM ones which I think spec out?.. Works like you say. mount outside and run a piece of hose in or dripline with hose to drip adapter and suck to unit outside. Then it transfers from unit out to wherever. This actually might be ideal for out app! I went to Lowes today and got a new one because I need it now. But i may be visiting the Lowes return desk soon. Also these things are bullet proof. I have forgotten my AC one on for a day or two. dry is No problem! And by fogetting it on I mean I drained the rez and it kept running with no ill efffects.. it keeps running when on while trying to keep the min back pressure 45. Since it cant get any pressure because its an open loop system it just keeps running until it switches off..



budleydoright said:


> tell me more about this pump. Where to get, how much , GPH? I was using a utility pump from lowes on mine. Worked well, but this same pump seems to be leaking lubricant into my RO water. Inline, does this mean hose in and out. sits outside of the rez?


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## boomdawg (May 22, 2011)

Duke,
I tried my new 1/3 HP Lowes pump tonight and it aint workin either. seems to be a pressure issue possibly like yours. So for shits and giggs I plugged in my 3.1 GLM .41 lb schurflo and it works. So I guess my set up was on the brink or something and now refuses sumpers.. I think I am going to order the flotec you got but got a question. Is it noisy like my schur? Does it constantly cycle on and off to pressurize the line like my Schur or does it stay on in a static pressurizing mode?
Thanks

This one? http://www.amazon.com/Flotec-FP0F360AC-Cyclone-Pumping-System/dp/B000FK9W18





mrduke said:


> sump pumps are not made to have any back pressure, which the regulator in the heater puts on them. your best bet is to get a inline transfer pump there a bit more money but are made to do what we want.


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## legallyflying (May 22, 2011)

Huh? My HF model still going strong. Reminds me though, I need to throw a little bleach in the barrel.


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## mrduke (May 22, 2011)

Mine does make noise I'd say it about as loud as a six inch exhaust fan. And it only runs for the minute or two while the heater is burning . It says to add oil every use but I just add acouple drops when I empty the res drum every couple weeks or so.


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## budleydoright (May 22, 2011)

mrduke said:


> It says to add oil every use but I just add acouple drops when I empty the res drum every couple weeks or so.


I would venture to guess that you could simply add some type of lubricant to your water. Something used to cool and lubricate cutting blades on saws, it's water soluble.

I don't change my rez for my lights but once every 6 months or so. I keep it clean with bleach and a uv sanitizer built into the pump but I'm thinking some pool chems might be better. since the water level doesn't get drawn down, I have suspended my pump off of rubber bungies just deep enough to function. this was originally to reduce vibration and noise but also has the added benefit of keeping the whole rez from draining should a leak develop.

also remember to ph your water to around 8 to make it less corrosive.


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## 907 (May 22, 2011)

Hey guys, have been running a ecotemp on demand since last SEP. I got away with just using a 27 gallon tuff tote for my co2 res. I just kept it in the basement furnace room on the concrete floor. I took 6" flex conduit and attached that to the furnace room fresh air intake, then stretched the conduit down so its just off your res water. When its the dead of winter I have to raise it up because I get ice on the surface. After a full light shift my res will be around 70-78. You will want to circulate some vinegar at one point through your water heater to keep scale build up down or it can slowly plug up. I use a inline jacuzzi circulation pump,its very quite, and has 21' of head, plus it dont mind heat. Peace 907


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## boomdawg (May 23, 2011)

That inline jacuzzi circulation pump sounds like the best bet yet due to the heat involved. Can you recommend one or tell us what u got?
Thanks man




907 said:


> Hey guys, have been running a ecotemp on demand since last SEP. I got away with just using a 27 gallon tuff tote for my co2 res. I just kept it in the basement furnace room on the concrete floor. I took 6" flex conduit and attached that to the furnace room fresh air intake, then stretched the conduit down so its just off your res water. When its the dead of winter I have to raise it up because I get ice on the surface. After a full light shift my res will be around 70-78. You will want to circulate some vinegar at one point through your water heater to keep scale build up down or it can slowly plug up. I use a inline jacuzzi circulation pump,its very quite, and has 21' of head, plus it dont mind heat. Peace 907


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## OneHit (Jun 1, 2011)

So are there no differences at all between the hydrogen one and what you have?


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## budleydoright (Jun 1, 2011)

None that I have been able to see. They make some claims of changing a few things but in reality, I think they have just re-named some of the standard features.

A co2 Generator either produces co2 or doesn't. These do, and remove most of the heat. they also produce Co2 in greater volumes than a traditional co2 burner so maintaining 1500 doesn't require that the burner is on all the time.


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## legallyflying (Jun 2, 2011)

OneHit said:


> So are there no differences at all between the hydrogen one and what you have?


Yes, there is a very big difference that you should be aware of... The hydrogen unit is $200 more. So if you decide to go the hydrogen route be sure to pick up a full suit of AN connessiour nutes as well just to ensure your pissing away as much money as possible. While your at it, buy some rockwool grow cubes as well; don't just buy a sheet or two of rockwool insulation and use a knife to cut them yourself cause the grow cubes are "specifically made" for starting plants.


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## budleydoright (Jun 2, 2011)

What is this rockwool insulation you speak of?


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## legallyflying (Jun 2, 2011)

budleydoright said:


> What is this rockwool insulation you speak of?


standard rigid rockwool insulation. 
http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Owens-Corning-703--1002.html

You will have to call around to find it but most places that carry industrial insulation will carry it. I bought a shit load when I sound proofed my home theater. Same exact product as the grow blocks and what not..just like 700% more expensive.


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## budleydoright (Jun 2, 2011)

So fiberglass and rockwool are the same? I always thought there were some differences between the raw materials.


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## legallyflying (Jun 3, 2011)

Yeah they are totally different. Who implied they were the same? Rock wool is used as insulation as well as a sound deafened. It works really well as sound proofing actually. Mostly because it has some mass to it and is porous...a tough combo. Commercial building use allot of rockwool as insulation. It is completely fire proof. 

Rockwool is made from metal slag, fiberglass is made from glass (silica)


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## legallyflying (Jun 3, 2011)

Oops. I get it. Wrong link. Not OC 703.. This stuff

http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul-Acoustical-Fire-Batts-Mineral-Wool-2-inch-Case-of-6--1006.html


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## budleydoright (Jun 5, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Oops. I get it. Wrong link. Not OC 703.. This stuff
> 
> http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Roxul-Acoustical-Fire-Batts-Mineral-Wool-2-inch-Case-of-6--1006.html


 
That clears things up, thanks. I'll have to check into this stuff.


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## budleydoright (Jun 6, 2011)

https://www.rollitup.org/general-marijuana-growing/423734-make-2200-worth-clear-rez.html

Check this thread out. this product has been a real find for my cloning issues. It is now keeping my chiller rez nice and clean.


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## legallyflying (Jun 7, 2011)

nice find! I'm seriously abondoning the whole "beneficial" route and just running a sterile root environment.


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## budleydoright (Jun 7, 2011)

I have been having a very difficult time cloning. My setup is in a warehouse that is used for storage. It is not climate controlled and gets VERY hot in the summer 100+, it is also very dry in my area. 20-30% RH. I also only visit once a day for about 30-60 minutes. So babying them, checking in on them, misting every 8 hours etc... is just not an option. I need systems that run themselves and are repeatable. I dropped this mix into my turboklone last last week, took 24 cuts and they look f'n fantastic. My cloner has only worked well one time since I bought it, that was the first time. I have scrubbed it, bleached it, h202, 70 degrees, you name it!

So yes, I'm, still a bit on cloud 9 over this latest development. I see potentially, the most frustrating thing left in my setup looking like it may be solved.


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## 907 (Jun 15, 2011)

Sorry guys , the kings are running and fishing has been great. Here is that jacuzzi pump
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230483233195&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT


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## mrduke (Jun 15, 2011)

that looks like a perfect pump mine draw 2.5 amps and is starting to get louded by the day. that may be in my future.


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## 907 (Jun 16, 2011)

I use uniseals to plumb my intake line into the res, the dam pumps so quite I have to reach down to feel it to make sure its running. Plan on putting a flow indicator on the discharge side of the pump for visual verifacation. My latest setup uses a 180 Quart marine fish cooler for my Res. Temps are alot easier to maintain, and they come plumbed with a drain  Peace 907


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## Bezy (Jun 16, 2011)

Get an old tub for that things and you got urself a cajuzi!


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## OneHit (Jun 17, 2011)

907, any pics of that setup? My new room is going to have the furnace room intake/exhaust running through it too and Im still wondering how to take advantage of it. Are you exhausting out your room also? Or is it sealed other than the intake?

And legally, what probs are you finding with beneficial? I was thinknig about going that route so I dont have to put ice bottles in every day


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## legallyflying (Jun 20, 2011)

not too may problems. Beni's can really help with absorption, growth and yield. You still need to keep temps down though as your oxygen levels will plummet in warm water. 
I'm making a chiller for mine this week.


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## budleydoright (Jun 20, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I'm making a chiller for mine this week.


where are your temps going? what chiller are you doing?


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## OneHit (Jun 20, 2011)

Didnt you say that you were thinking about stopping bennies? And I thought one of the big point of bennies is that you DONT need to reduce res temps? I want to stop having to put water bottles in every day


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## legallyflying (Jun 22, 2011)

I think perhaps you mis-interpreted, or perhaps I wasn't clear. There are basically two paths to go, beni or not. There are benefits to using beni's in the form of increased nutrient uptake,resistance to bad bacteria, etc. Its a balance between good and bad beni's. One that you don't have much control over really. The bad fungus and bacteria really start to bloom above 70 degrees..so they might overwhelm your good bacteria. 

The other root is a "sterile" rhyzosphere. You add h2o2 every3-4 days in small doses. There are no fungus, bacteria, etc in the root zone. It is a fine technique but kind of misses the point so to speak when using organic nutes which end themselves to the complex interactions of breakdown and absorption between fungus colonies and root structures. H2o2 also adds oxygen to the water for plant uptake but it breaks apart and dissipates rather quickly, hence the 3-4 day maintenance doses. 

A warm liquid inherently has less ability to hold dissolved gasses. (ever drink a warm soda that was also really fizzy? no you haven't as the co2 has come out of suspension). So if you water is warm, there is not much you can do to increase oxygen levels and oxygen in the root zone is CRITICAL. 

My water temps have been hitting 75 so its time to do something about it. The chiller I am going to make is thus..

Craigs list window air conditioner =$50
50 feet of flexible 1/2" copper coil =$80
some 1/2 rubber hose
35 gallon container
smalll water pump.

The airconditioner is placed directly above the container filled with water. The shell of the air conditioner is taken off and the cooling fins (that the air passes through in front of the AC) are carefully bent down so they are sitting in the water. Therefore the AC is now cooling the water in the container. The copper coil is placed in the cold water and a small pump in your nutient rez pumps the water water through the rubber hose and through the copper coil (which is now cold) and back into the rez. Boom, homemade chiller. 

Works on the same concept as one of those mobile keg Chiller cooler things. The warm beer passes through the cold copper coild in a cooler full of ice...instant cold beer. And who doesn't like cold beer?

The dopest of dope ways to do the same thing would be to bury the copper coils about 10 feet in the ground and use the cool earth to coil the water but I just don't have the time to do that and you would likely need more coil as earth is less conductive of heat than water. 

ok? ok.


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## budleydoright (Jun 22, 2011)

I would look on ebay for a stainless steel wort cooler. http://cgi.ebay.com/New-Super-Efficient-50-Stainless-Steel-Wort-Chiller-/290350368599?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item439a3b0757

Put this directly in your rez and pump your cold chiller water through it. Use a smallish res so the water can be pulled down into the 50's easily. Stainless can go right into your nute water and will be way more effecient than plastic, cooper will leach out if in contact with mineral salts.


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## legallyflying (Jun 22, 2011)

Excellent tip!!


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## budleydoright (Jun 22, 2011)

Yea, that copper will slowly leach into your solution and poison your girls. There are also some plate type Stainless heat exchangers on ebay.


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## legallyflying (Jun 23, 2011)

ordered a stainless model from feebay. In the interest of not consuming even more power, I'm going to put a small bucket in my keg fridge and run the water through there. We will see how that works.


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## budleydoright (Jun 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> ordered a stainless model from feebay. In the interest of not consuming even more power, I'm going to put a small bucket in my keg fridge and run the water through there. We will see how that works.


 
Worth a shot, but you will likely burn it out. A fridge is made to handle a passive load. I think it will work for a hydro rez, but no heaters.


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## rosecitypapa (Jun 23, 2011)

I'm researching building a diy chiller myself. Any reason you decided to go with the repurposed refrig vs. the repurposed water cooler?

diy chiller from water cooler:
http://forum.grasscity.com/grow-room-design-setup/248366-klutters-diy-chiller-35-00-usd.html


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## legallyflying (Jun 23, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> I'm researching building a diy chiller myself. Any reason you decided to go with the repurposed refrig vs. the repurposed water cooler?
> 
> diy chiller from water cooler:
> http://forum.grasscity.com/grow-room-design-setup/248366-klutters-diy-chiller-35-00-usd.html


#1. generating more heat in the basement running an aircon sitting on a shelf
#2.power usage

I don't really understand the comment about burning out the fridge. I am going to put a 5 gallon pail of water in the fridge and circulate that water through the SS coil sitting in the rez. So are you saying the fridge will kick on a bunch more to keep the water cool? The other route would be to put a set of coils in the freezer, a separate set in the rez and just pump water and anti-freeze through the system.


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## Dirty Harry (Jun 23, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> ...I don't really understand the comment about burning out the fridge. I am going to put a 5 gallon pail of water in the fridge and circulate that water through the SS coil sitting in the rez. So are you saying the fridge will kick on a bunch more to keep the water cool? The other route would be to put a set of coils in the freezer, a separate set in the rez and just pump water and anti-freeze through the system.


 I think you got it. The little fridge only cycles a few times when it needs to. Circulating warm water through it will cause it to cycle a lot or it will just keep cooling. The compressor was not built for constant running, only short cycles.
I was thinking if you have a sump pump that is quite active, mine runs all seasons including hard winters. There is always water in it and it pumps every 15 min or so. If it is possible to get lines to it, put a cooling coil in it. The ground water will absorb the heat, then the sump pump empties outside and new water fills the sump.
Just something that popped into my mind. Use the FREE cooling nature of water your constantly pumping out to keep your basement dry.


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## legallyflying (Jun 23, 2011)

No sump pump. But I did think
About running a ground loop
Of 200' of polyethylene tubing. I cringed however at burying all the tubing and then having it not work .


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## budleydoright (Jun 24, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> No sump pump. But I did think
> About running a ground loop
> Of 200' of polyethylene tubing. I cringed however at burying all the tubing and then having it not work .


That 50ft of stainless steel will likely disipate more heat than the 200ft of poly. You could always bury it. Should be sturdy enough that you can pull it out if it doesn't work. What kind of temps are we talking and how deep?


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## legallyflying (Jun 24, 2011)

Well, my 55 gallon rez is topping out around 75.3. How deep? Good question, I suppose I would need to get at least 5 feet down to get deep enough to negate surface warming. Our average daily temperature (a good measure of soil temp) is around 52. I'm jsut wondering what the ability of the soil is in transferring and disapating the heat.


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## budleydoright (Jun 24, 2011)

The earth is a pretty big heatsink! 55 should do it easily.


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## mrduke (Jun 25, 2011)

i would bet that the soil would just heat to what ever temp the water is being pump thru it. clay and rock are to of the best holders of heat thats why they use them to line fireplaces,ovens ect.


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## budleydoright (Jun 26, 2011)

mrduke said:


> i would bet that the soil would just heat to what ever temp the water is being pump thru it. clay and rock are to of the best holders of heat thats why they use them to line fireplaces,ovens ect.


And then the dirt surrounding that dirt would heat up and the heat would disipate into the earth. It would definately work. I just don't know the formula for amount of surface area required.


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## Badman959 (Jun 27, 2011)

god i wish i knew how to do all this. You've got 1 nice setup.


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## Mtmimi (Jun 27, 2011)

Hi all I am late to this thread but found it while searching to find SOME remedy for my ongoing Hydrogen CO2 generator issues. I am now on my fourth generator and I am just about done trying to keep one working. And while the company has been good about returning the broken units and giving me new working models it is all time consuming and frustrating.

The good news is I have a swimming pool that I have been using as a cooling tank. It works great as I get my pool heated and co2 for my room at the same time. 

So my question is does the water being heated also "cool" the unit. Someone mentioned that the cooler your rez water the cooler the air from the vent? Can you please tell me a bit more on how this works. My room runs a bit warm in the summer so I need to avoid a burner if at all possible.

But I have to do something because once you have grown using CO2 you can never go back!

Any advice is greatly appreciated!
Many thanks
mimi


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## legallyflying (Jun 28, 2011)

Simple physics my friend. The heat has to go Somewhere. The heat from the burner is absorbed by the water. Wish i had a swimming pool although i am seriously thinking about running the water through polyethylene tubing under my first floor to heat the house in the winter.


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## mrduke (Jun 28, 2011)

can any one recommend a pump that will work with an eccotemp heater? they wont work with a sump pump cause it has the flow restricter on it so the sumps just shut off. I'm going on my third transfer pump the first was good ran for 5 months or so now the second is going out and it only been a month or a bit more, they have to be oiled daily which i never do cause i'm not there. any suggestions..........?


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## legallyflying (Jun 28, 2011)

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-inch-clear-water-pump-1479.html

damn, that's a great deal on a pump! 

This is the one I have...

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarter-hp-115-volt-submersible-water-pump-98342.html

It was $40 on sale when I got it. Some say it broke on them. Mine has been running about 4 months with no issues.


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## mrduke (Jun 28, 2011)

thats the first pump i tried when i was getting started, but it wouldnt keep constant pressure when the flow regulator on the heater restricted the water so much. It just shut off due to lack of flow


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## OneHit (Jun 28, 2011)

Legally, how are you using the wort chiller? I just bought one on impulse, and now Im not really sure how I should be running it. I do have a fridge close by my rez, but im afraid of what dirty harry said


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## budleydoright (Jun 28, 2011)

mrduke said:


> thats the first pump i tried when i was getting started, but it wouldnt keep constant pressure when the flow regulator on the heater restricted the water so much. It just shut off due to lack of flow


 
how bout that jacuzzi pump a few pages back? seemed like the perfect pump for this app. Little pricey though.


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## Mtmimi (Jun 28, 2011)

I ordered the AQUAH 6L Tankless Heater today. It was 149.00 plus about 20 bucks for shipping. I am hoping it will just slide right into the place my HydroGen heater left. 

I called HydroGen and spoke with them and told them that I have replaced their unit 4 times over the past 2 years. They mentioned that perhaps the chlorine from the pool was causing issues. I replied that their manual states that a pool or hot tub may be used for cooling. Long story short they sent me a shipping form so I am returning it so they can take a look and see what is wrong. If it is a mechanical issue they will pay all costs. If not I will tell them to keep the unit as it is just too much trouble for its worth. i only paid for the original unit and my Local Hydro shop replaced it each time for me. So worse case scenario I got a few years use for about 375.00.

Now I am wondering if the chlorine will be an issue with the AquaH unit as well?

I will check back in and let you know what happens moving forward.


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## budleydoright (Jun 28, 2011)

Mtmimi said:


> I ordered the AQUAH 6L Tankless Heater today. It was 149.00 plus about 20 bucks for shipping. I am hoping it will just slide right into the place my HydroGen heater left.
> 
> I called HydroGen and spoke with them and told them that I have replaced their unit 4 times over the past 2 years. They mentioned that perhaps the chlorine from the pool was causing issues. I replied that their manual states that a pool or hot tub may be used for cooling. Long story short they sent me a shipping form so I am returning it so they can take a look and see what is wrong. If it is a mechanical issue they will pay all costs. If not I will tell them to keep the unit as it is just too much trouble for its worth. i only paid for the original unit and my Local Hydro shop replaced it each time for me. So worse case scenario I got a few years use for about 375.00.
> 
> ...


 
what is failing on your hydrogen? All the chlorine should do to it is keep it real clean. Short of eating through the brass or causing seals to fail prematurely, I can't imagine what it could do. 
I remember their youtube video where they are using discarded nutrient water through it.
I would think the ignition system would be the weak link. I can't imagine they were built for continuous duty. More like RV or camping use. Curious about this.


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## guy incognito (Jun 29, 2011)

I finally got my heater all hooked up. My room is not totally sealed and it's turning on every half our or so it seems like. How often does your guys run?


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## Mtmimi (Jun 29, 2011)

I have had 4 of these units so far. Not sure why they stopped working. Initially we went through all the troubleshooting steps and sometimes got them working by cleaning the small metal filter or cleaning the sensor but then eventually all our efforts would fail and we would take it back to the Hydro store and they would replace it. FYI our local Hydro store is no longer carrying them due to all the problems. 

After the 3rd return we were upgraded to the PRO version and have had it for about 6 months and it is shutting off after coming on for 8-10 seconds. We have ran through all the normal trouble shooting steps and nothing is working. I am sending it in and they mentioned the Chlorine issue. As I said it did not make sense to me as well as their own manual suggests using a pool or hot tub for cooling. I told this to the guy on the phone..,"Why would you suggest using a pool or hot tub if chlorine is a possible problem to rubber seals etc." He then back tracked and said "well it's probably not an issue." He said all parts are covered with warrenty but condensation is not. Not sure what might cause condensation. I run a dehumidifier and keep room at about 50% humidity.

I will send it back as I am curious to see what they say...but if they want money to fix I will tell them to just keep it. Since shop is no longer carrying them I don't have the option of just returning it for an exchange...was good while it lasted.

FYI my room is closed but not sealed. I keep PPM's at about 1000 as any higher just takes too much propane. And of course it does not run when light are off. So runs every hour for a few minutes.


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## legallyflying (Jun 29, 2011)

Mine turns on every 20 min or so as well. Seems about right to me


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## guy incognito (Jun 29, 2011)

Do you have an issue with anything growing in the warm water? Seems like a perfect breeding ground for microbes. Would some bleach or chlorine in the water affect the pump or heater?


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## budleydoright (Jun 29, 2011)

I throw pool shock in my chiller rez, or bleach. I think you have fewer issues if there's no light. My rez is for water cooled lights.


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## guy incognito (Jun 29, 2011)

I have no light. It's in a garbage can with a lid in a dark room. I am concerned that something will grow as the water is getting very warm.


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## mrduke (Jun 29, 2011)

mine also runs for about 1 minutee every 20 or so, and i add 5 cups bleach to 50 gallons water, its been over 6 months and cant see anything growing in ti


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## guy incognito (Jun 29, 2011)

How sealed are your rooms? I don't even have my door mounted yet, I have a heavy quilt nailed up over the opening, and I know there are leaks all over the place that haven't been sealed. I won't bother stressing over weather stripping and caulking every small crevice if a sealed room is running just as often as mine. I am running 1,500 watts currently. I am afraid my 35 gallon garbage in my basement is going to overheat too.


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## Illumination (Jun 29, 2011)

how's it going lf?


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## mrduke (Jul 1, 2011)

ey guy i run 3k in mine and a 55g barrel for the res thats about 5 feet from the lights, it gets pretty warm by the end of a light cycle but then cools right off by the next one. as far as being sealed my room is wraped w/ panda plastic every where but the ceiling so i think it should be pretty well sealed. as long as your not pulling air out of your room other air wont come in, to much


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## guy incognito (Jul 2, 2011)

3 fucking days and the heater is not turning on now. The pump still works, and I am getting the same amount of water flow through the unit. I still have gasflow in my house. The batteries are still 100%. 

The ignition is not kicking on at any point though. My pump has been running 24/7 and the ignition is not auto starting. Anyone know what I should do?


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## budleydoright (Jul 2, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> :
> 
> 3 fucking days and the heater is not turning on now. The pump still works, and I am getting the same amount of water flow through the unit. I still have gasflow in my house. The batteries are still 100%.
> 
> The ignition is not kicking on at any point though. My pump has been running 24/7 and the ignition is not auto starting. Anyone know what I should do?


 
Plug the power supply to your generator or the pump, whichever triggers the ignitors directly into a 120V source to make sure it;s not the controller. what type of controller? If the pump isn't strong enough, lowering it may help. also lowering the flame and waterflow can help.


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## guy incognito (Jul 2, 2011)

Its the sentinel chhc-4. I don't see how it could be the controller because it is turning the pump on, and it looks like it's the same flow rate draining back into the can as before. It's not turning on with a 120v source either though. It worked fine for 3 days. I can't lower it very much. It's on the second floor and my pump is in the basement. The pump has 26.3 feet of head. It's about a 20 foot vertical distance.


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## budleydoright (Jul 3, 2011)

Is it possible the screen is plugged up a bit? Try turning the controls to reduce the flow. Sounds like the flow switch is messing with you. Can yuo connect your burner to a city source to test it?


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2011)

Do you have the exact same model as I do? 

Issues that I have had that could be an issue 

The wires from my battery was shorting on one of the pipes. If your batteries feel hot, this could be the cause. 

A few times when my pump was running, I had to turn the water flow rate knob to get it to fire 

Once it would turn on then turn off 1 minute later. Was driving me crazy... Rez was near empty. Lol 

I agree it may be a dirty filter. That is a HUGE amount of head.


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

Yes same exact pump and heater as you. It worked for you so I went with it. Plus if anything happened to either of our equipment we had someone else to troubleshoot with.

Batteries do not seem hot. Was this a problem initially for you, or did it happen after it was already in use?

I fiddled with all the knobs and it wouldn't fire. 

Rez is full.

The filter on the pump? Should be clean but I will inspect it when my lights come on.

In the meantime i'm going to hook my hose up to city water and see if the higher water pressure will start it.


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2011)

i would first fiddle fuck with the battery box. Pull the spring a little to stretch them so they make a better conenction. If you look at the battery box 9on top of it) you will see two little leads with rubber boots on them. Me pushing on the battery box had slid one of the boots p and the bare lead was touching one of the copper tubes. It was shorting and wouldn't fire. 

Allso, sometimes the water has to stop and start for it to fire. so try grabbing the inlet hose and kinking it and then letting it go. I'll PM you my phone number and you can call me and we can trouble shooot.


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

I hooked it up to my city water and it started and ran fine which leads me to the conclusion that inadequate water pressure was the problem (even though it looks like the same volume of water flowing through the unit, it must have been right on the minimum pressure).

So I guess now my options are to get a pump with a higher head rating, or move my res onto the 2nd floor. I don't think moving my res is a good idea. It's already getting too hot in the basement.


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

I disconnected the hose to make sure it's pumping, and i'm still getting water upstairs. I'm going to move the res into the closet upstairs and hook it all up. If that works i'll have to figure out how to keep it cool up there.


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2011)

put that fucker on the roof!! Or better yet, just throw it in your attic (if you have one). There is no way you are going to keep it cool. I could use my rez as a hot tub.


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

It's upstairs now a few feet from the unit and working fine. Won't the pump fail if it gets too hot? It says 95* operating temp max. Kind of defeats the purpose of trying to use a water cooled unit if I just keep the water res a few feet away, but oh well.


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

Well it was working fine. This thing was supposed to be set-it-and-forget-it! It's turning into the biggest god damn pain in the ass.


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

It ignites and runs for a minute or so, then just goes out (while power is still supplied to the pump) and it doesn't restart. I'm not sure if it's the unit acting up or the pump. But if it goes out before it hits the ppm the pump will continue to run 24/7 and the unit won't restart.


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2011)

try adjusting the water knob. I have mine all the way cranked to the right...


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

Water knob and gas knob don't seem to make a difference. However putting on the winter setting seems to have worked. It's now getting up to ppm and cutting power. It came back on a couple times. I'm gonna go watch an episode of breaking bad then check back in on it.

I hope it fucking works. My voice is hoarse and my knuckles slightly bruised. The neighbors are probably wondering why the hell someone was cursing so loud.


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2011)

some things need tweaking that's all .


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## guy incognito (Jul 3, 2011)

ppm 382 

pump running, heater off


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## keiserrott (Jul 3, 2011)

First, thanks Legal for starting the thread and sharing your experiences.
I'm looking at this heater. http://www.amazon.com/Camp-Chef-Triton-Water-Heater/dp/B001J4AU2E
Any thoughts on it?

Sure wish I had an older home with a large cistern...I'd use it to cool hoods and with a tankless heater.

Thanx in advance.


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## legallyflying (Jul 3, 2011)

That looks like it would work well. I have a NG model which costs me next to nothing to run but if your going propane then I don't see why that one wouldn't work.


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## 907 (Jul 4, 2011)

Thats the one I use, the only thing that i have had to do was cycle some vinneger through it to get rid of scale build up from hard water. Just put acouple gallons in a bucket and recirc. Peace 907


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## legallyflying (Jul 4, 2011)

I threw a splash of bleach in my big rez to fend off algae and what not.


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

Ok I have more than adequate inlet water pressure. The pump is only about 4 feet below the heater now, and will shoot water out like a fountain if I disconnect it from the inlet hose. I get more water pressure from the pump than I get from my city water. 

The oulet from the heater barely trickles though. I turn the pump on, the heater does not fire, and I get essentially no water coming out the hot side. Does it restrict water flow when the unit is not on?

I can't believe something is physically wrong (like a water flow blockage inside the unit, or disconnected ignition, or no gas supply) because the unit seems to work intermittently.


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## legallyflying (Jul 4, 2011)

Dude, you have SOMETHING blocking water flow through the unit. The water should be coming out almost as fast as it goes in. I believe you have found your problem. Try flushing the water backwards through the unit. something is blocking it. Your not getting enough flow, and it is flow that triggers the unit to come on..nothing else.


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

So if you cut the gas supply to your unit and turn it on it freely flows out of the outlet? I left the hoses I was using still strung down to the basement and used a different length of hose since I only needed 2 short lengths, so the obstruction must be inside my unit. I will reverse the hose and see if it blows it out.


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

Well nothing came out of the hoses, but after hooking it back up it seems to work. So something is probably inside my heater blocking water flow.


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

Even after it came back on the flow is very low. Not enough for me to take a shower in. It is super hot, but still dribbling out instead of gushing.


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

I put the oulet into a 5 gallon bucket (which is 18.7 L) and it took 10 minutes on the highest water flow and it's not even totally full. I believe it should only take about 3 minutes @ 6L/min like it is rated.


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

I disassembled the hose hook ups to see what the problem is and the inlet screen was covered in a slimy hair ball that was blocking flow. The fittings, hoses, and pump I used were all clean though - so where did this nasty hair ball come from in the first place? Why did my pump not filter it? And how do I prevent this from happening again?


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

Back up and running for the moment. I swear i'm going to rip it off the wall and throw it out the window if it's not working when I get home tonight.

For my water hook ups I went heater -> 1/2" double female galvanized -> 1/2" male to 5/8" barb (brass) -> 5/8" high heat rubber hose. I used teflon tape between the heater and the double female, and the double female and the barbed piece. When I disconnected it the galvanized piece looks like it is rusting on the inside and all the teflon tape appears to have vanished. Not sure what to make of either of those observations. Maybe the that hairball I found was teflon. I only put the teflon on the male threads at least a couple threads up, so i'm not sure how it would have gotten into the water stream. Also not sure why galvanized would be rusting. I used less teflon tape this time and put it even further up the threads this time. I would rather deal with a small leak than whatever this was.


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## legallyflying (Jul 4, 2011)

Dude, don't have your cat in the room when you hoook things up LOL. I don't know where the hair ball came from but I think you found the problem. Its not gas related, its water flow related. I would also look at the water control valve and see if that is sticking or anything. That controls how quickly water flows through the unit.


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## mrduke (Jul 4, 2011)

they guy what heater are you running i have a eccotemp and there is a flow/pressure regulator spring inside the cover, i had problems getting it to run right , sound like what your going threw and the company rep. said that it was the sump pump. there not made to have any back pressure and will slow way down to not burn the motor up , he suggested a transfer pump. the problem with that is the olny one i could get locally needs to be oiled daily to work right and that aint happenin, so i said fuck it and chocked it up as loss.

PS so if anyone want to buy a monitor or heater or a pump for it shoot me a pm


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## legallyflying (Jul 4, 2011)

to minimize back pressure, crank the water valve all the way open. Don't know why all the difficullties, Mine works like a charm.


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## boomdawg (Jul 4, 2011)

Been on a hiatus and thought Id chime in. Happy fourth! 

LF , I got a ac/chiller picture detailing exhaust for your pondering setup. Ill send later.

Duke/GuyInc, Dont throw in the towel yet. Mine works now. See below.

Seems these units can be a bit temperamental for a few peeps including myself. What i learned is that these things are RV type contraptions that need to be treated accordingly. For example these things arent designed to hook up to a high flow pump and Duke confirmed this from his unit's manufacturer. They are designed for showers,etc in a camping/RV environment with camping type water pressure. 

My HF pump imploded either due to poor QC or restriction or not enough restriction or all of the above. Maybe it was trying to push a golf ball through a hose I don't know? My better quality Lowes pump unit didnt work either and I had symptoms everyone else is having like limited flow and no flame or only flames for a few secs. Its as if you need some luck? Well anyway I happened to have a RV type in line pump handy that cycles at a steady 45psi. It works with my Aquah. I tested this unit back to back with my lowes unit and the Shurflo works! The other lowes sumper went to the lowes return desk where it can live in a fish pond somewhere pumping 24/7. 

The SFlo is the missing/lost link for me anyway. Sure you might get lucky with a set up that has just the right water pressure and head/fall and it works perfect but it seems now there are water pump/pressure issues. Theses little 5L and 6L water heaters arent expecting a shitload of pressure to operate! And if you give her a shitload more over spec then it has to worry about regulating the Fukushima you're throwin at her. I got a Shurflo in line which is rated for like 3.5 GPM 45 PSI and it dont need any KY and likes it hot up to 125F! This is now my working set up and so far so good. ill post pics later.
just my take for what its worth..
Dont make any purchases on my info until I follow up in another month...


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## boomdawg (Jul 4, 2011)

Heres the pump that works for me: 

LF,
Here is my vented wall unit AC. Photo takin from bottom looking up. Ideally, if you can keep the foam duct back side inner dimensions the same all the way to outside the air flows freely. If you cant do that then make a foam box around rear of that and cut a 6" or whatever hole and run insulated duck up and out and probably use an inline fan to assist squirrel cage fan. This is my flower room AC. My chiller wall unit AC will be used for cloning/nuteing and will exhaust via a 6" insulated duct into this foam one and out. When I get that done soon ill post up. This is so easy to do. 2" foam and red can of expanding spray foam to glue it all. A little messy form the styrofoam pieces but easy to clean. The thicker the foam the higher the "R" value. I can barely feel any heat when i touch the foam after AC been running all day! So if you can vent out of the basement somehow then you can run the ac/chiller down there no worries! 




Budley, Hows that shock stuff working out in the cloner? Do you still approve of it?


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## guy incognito (Jul 4, 2011)

Well she seems to be working fine in the closet except for the outrageous temps. The water was a tad over 150*F. I could see the humidity pouring off of it. It's only been running about 8 hours. At these temps I can't control the humidity in the room and i'm afraid the pump will fail. I drained it and pulled it back down into the basement thinking I unnecessarily moved it in the first place due to the blockage, but now it's no longer working. And it's too late to fuck with. I'm getting real sick of this thing. 

I don't understand where the slimy hair ball came from. I have no pets. The hoses were clean, the connections were clean, the garbage can was brand new and got rinsed out.


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## legallyflying (Jul 4, 2011)

and thus begins the great hair ball mystery.


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## boomdawg (Jul 5, 2011)

Wow 150 degrees!! Holy shit! Thats too hot. How big is your res again? 
"the great hairball mystery" . ROFLMA LOL

I,m thinking hes got a Gnome living in there somewhere?


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## legallyflying (Jul 5, 2011)

Hmmm could be a gnome. Have you seen treasure trolls in your flower room? That could definitely be it. 150 does sounds a bit extreme. Maybe put the Rez back down in the basement or wherever now that your learned not to put dead cats in your Rez.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

The hair could have fallen from the ceiling into the res, or got attached to the pump or a hose during one of the trillion times I was moving shit around. 

It's a 35 gallon garbage can. It was the largest garbage can I could find that didn't leak.

The basement will be the best spot for heat dissipation, but now the pump isn't activating the heater. Everything was cleaned off and I took extra care to make sure it was hair free as well as free of other debris, so if something is clogging it now i'm just gonna need enough pressure to overcome it. I could set up the res on the 2nd floor on the other side of the room. It's a bungalow house - stairway to 2nd floor, then make a u-turn and there is a 6-7 ft wide pathway to an open doorway - then the grow room is inside that room. The entire upstairs gets insanely hot during the summer though so i'm not sure how well that will work either. I need a larger res, or to daisy chain several garbage cans together to increase the total volume from 35 to like 100 gal.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

How do I know how much my floor can support? 2 55-gallon barrels will be a lot of weight. 110 gallons X 8.34 lb/gal = 917.4 pounds of water on my second floor. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen


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## legallyflying (Jul 5, 2011)

Based on your luck so far? Lol. Seriously though, it should be fine. Your bathtub probably weighs just as much. Sounds like the best bet would be basement and a better pump.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

Where am I going to get a better pump? I spent some time checking online and I can't find anything with a higher head that isn't $400+. It goes from 0-26 feet of head, to pumps with hundreds of feet of head for major applications.


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## legallyflying (Jul 5, 2011)

Just go buy your weed.


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## Illumination (Jul 5, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Just go buy your weed.







for reals


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

Well my line is not clogged and the pump is delivering more than 6L/min up to the level where the heater is. I don't know if that's adequate pressure, but I would assume so. If it's a 6L/min heater, and it's getting 6L/min, why would it not run?

This is a personal mission at this point. I have far too much invested in this to not see it through.


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## rosecitypapa (Jul 5, 2011)

It's gonna depend where you put that barrel. If it's near a bearing wall you could get away with more load than if it was placed in the center of the room.

As for the regular bathtub, they are typically 42 gallons to the bottom of the overflow. However with that, the weight is distributed over twice the area.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

They also put specific support beams in for a tub. They never anticipated me putting a tub upstairs. I can put the barrels close to a load bearing wall, but not directly over it. I have bigger problems to worry about if 900 pounds is going to cave my ceiling.


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## boomdawg (Jul 5, 2011)

6L is what 1.5 galons? Seems a little weak. But then after running 26' head and unknown straight run what will it really be? Brings to mind my propane run to the house. its a 100'. where it plugs into house it needs a pump to keep the the flow pressure in range. I know you have NG so maybe it dont matter? either way when you start running all this head and distance to a simple hot water showerr burner you are asking for it. I believe my pump is best suited for our app but only time will tell for sure. These things are made for this kind of distance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUC4gGCYsps&feature=related

your specific project is very ambitious. Not sure if I would attempt what you have. I understand the personal part of it very well but you got some serious dynamics going on for a little portable shower water heater. tanks are always an option....


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## rosecitypapa (Jul 5, 2011)

What size are your floor joists? Making a small platform that distributes the weight across 3-4 joists would be helpful. I have a rain barrel outside that sits a top 3/4" old growth boards. It took about 5 years for it to slowly deform them enough to require replacement.

About head, I'm curious if running a loop that gets primed with water as your line in to your heater would make any difference. The weight of the water might equalize the head. This loop is independent from the line out from heater to rez.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

boomdawg said:


> 6L is what 1.5 galons? Seems a little weak. But then after running 26' head and unknown straight run what will it really be? Brings to mind my propane run to the house. its a 100'. where it plugs into house it needs a pump to keep the the flow pressure in range. I know you have NG so maybe it dont matter? either way when you start running all this head and distance to a simple hot water showerr burner you are asking for it. I believe my pump is best suited for our app but only time will tell for sure. These things are made for this kind of distance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUC4gGCYsps&feature=related
> 
> your specific project is very ambitious. Not sure if I would attempt what you have. I understand the personal part of it very well but you got some serious dynamics going on for a little portable shower water heater. tanks are always an option....



It's rated for 26.3 feet of head, the actual vertical distance is about 20 feet. It is pretty much directly below the heater in the basement. The actual flow rate being delivered to the heater is greater than 6L/min. I don't think the NG pressure is an issue. It's a half inch flexible pipe and it's 36' long. 

The project was very ambitious, but the pay off was supposed to be maintenance free co2 generation at a fraction the cost of buying compressed co2. All the hard work and equipment should theoretically pay for itself with increased yield, and in the long run be cheaper than any other co2 method. 

I had the god damn thing running fine for 3 days before it went all to shit with a clog. Now even with the clog gone it seems to not be working.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

rosecitypapa said:


> What size are your floor joists? Making a small platform that distributes the weight across 3-4 joists would be helpful. I have a rain barrel outside that sits a top 3/4" old growth boards. It took about 5 years for it to slowly deform them enough to require replacement.
> 
> About head, I'm curious if running a loop that gets primed with water as your line in to your heater would make any difference. The weight of the water might equalize the head. This loop is independent from the line out from heater to rez.


I don't know I can't see the joists. It's floored on top and ceilinged on bottom. I was thinking some kind of wooden platform to distribute the weight to a larger foot print and cover more joists, but I didn't really think it through to completion yet. I checked craigslist and there are a bunch of 55 gallon barrels on sale for between $5-25. I shoulda checked there first before buying a garbage can. I also use a 32 gallon garbage can as a water res in the actual grow room.

I don't understand what you mean about a second loop.


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## legallyflying (Jul 5, 2011)

I don't think the setup for additionall head would work. You would have to use an external, inline pump. Ya know, harbor frieght does have a special on a 1 hp external pump. It looks fucking burly.


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## rosecitypapa (Jul 5, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> I don't know I can't see the joists.
> 
> I don't understand what you mean about a second loop.


Drill a hole in the ceiling below that you can spackle over and use a clothes hanger to determine the joist height. As for the loop thing, I could explain it but on second thought, I don't think it would work and just add to the frustration. Your specs are matched, sounds like a defective unit to me.


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## boomdawg (Jul 5, 2011)

try that inline pump LF rec'd frpm HF. you can overnight it and still be hundreds less than that other pump you mentioned. just make sure it specs out to your head needs.
do what Rose says too. find out what size joists you have then you can make the call. if they are 2x12 youre golden , if they are 2x10 you need to calculate your dead weight loading, if 2x8 (i seriously doubt) forget it. and spread the load over the span of numerous joists. you can just throw down a number of 2x4's or get fancy use 2x6's on end and block it and sheet it.

That should get u there. the biggy is the inline pump. 
if it still dont work send the unit back.
and use Floramite for those hairy ass gnomes!

ALSO - get a stud finder and check your joist layout from the drywall side (not throught the flooring). They can only see like a 1/2" maybe 3/4". Your flooring alone with sheeting will be more than 1/2" guanteed.. if that dont work than drill a hole or 2..


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## budleydoright (Jul 5, 2011)

what about that inline jacuzzi pump someone posted a few pages back. I see them on ebay for under 200


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## legallyflying (Jul 5, 2011)

Ok, serious question: you weren't held back a couple grades as a kid were you? 

I mean, Jesus Christ dude. It's a water heater for an RV, not a lunar landing module 

The flow through the unit is not the same as the flow needed to trigger the burner. There is likely a minimum psi rating for the water pressure needed. As I said ten fucking pages ago, you have way to much head, you need a serious, heavy duty pump to raise water 26 feet and still have good pressure.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

I could set it up exactly how it was in the closet, with a different pump hooked up, and an overflow drain to the basement. Then get some rain barrels and link them together in the basement, and use the pump to just exchange water with the small reservoir upstairs. Then it would work perfect and I could cool the small res in the hot closet by circulating 165 gallons of water from the basement.


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## guy incognito (Jul 5, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Ok, serious question: you weren't held back a couple grades as a kid were you?
> 
> I mean, Jesus Christ dude. It's a water heater for an RV, not a lunar landing module
> 
> The flow through the unit is not the same as the flow needed to trigger the burner. There is likely a minimum psi rating for the water pressure needed. As I said ten fucking pages ago, you have way to much head, you need a serious, heavy duty pump to raise water 26 feet and still have good pressure.


More power pump does not equal more head. The harbor freight 1/2 hp and 1 hp models have less head than the 1/4 hp.


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## legallyflying (Jul 5, 2011)

I didn't know the rating on that pump, I just saw it on sale for dirt cheap the other day. 

In my experience, better weed (and the right company) = better head


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## boomdawg (Jul 5, 2011)

I like the loop design! Kudos whoever thought of that! Im guessing you are keeping all the loop pumps and operation separate from the gen operation I hope. Now you can have a small rez upstairs! 
Now dont do all that without getting the right inline pump....

So what size joists do you got going on? I guess they were small so youre going through with the loop idea?

High school grad or GED those are some perty computer graphic pictures!  I wish i could do that!


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## panhead (Jul 5, 2011)

canndo said:


> Aren't there some N02 and monoxide issues here?


No,they burn very clean,ive been running the same type co2 system for about 3 years now with zero problems & my testers allways show acceptable levels.

I posted this exact thread about 2 or 3 yrs ago & fdd2blk jumped in saying he should ban me or shut down the thread beacuse i was dangerous,im not sure which but as soon as he started freaking out all the groupies jumped in,i got so damn tired of trying to get those guys to stop panicing & read the msds sheets before he proclaim something dangerous i said fuk it & killed the thread & gave up trying to help anybody.

Its a great system & does the exact same job as a hydro unit only it dont make your nuts ache from price gouge.

For the op,great job man.


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## legallyflying (Jul 6, 2011)

Well props to you panhead for seeing the light way ahead of me. I think I actually posted something addressing the fact that modern burners output 99.9% co2.


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## guy incognito (Jul 6, 2011)

boomdawg said:


> I like the loop design! Kudos whoever thought of that! Im guessing you are keeping all the loop pumps and operation separate from the gen operation I hope. Now you can have a small rez upstairs!
> Now dont do all that without getting the right inline pump....
> 
> So what size joists do you got going on? I guess they were small so youre going through with the loop idea?
> ...


I never checked the joists. Keeping the water upstairs is just a bad idea. The area where they would be kept is probably 100* on hot summer days, so in order to keep it cool I would need massive amounts of water. My entire goal was to add co2 during the hottest part of the year because I am upstairs and having difficulty keeping the temps down, so I wanted the co2 so I could raise my operating temp by 10* or so without stressing the plants too much. And if I still couldnt control the heat and it spiked to 100*F I figured it wouldn't be as stressful for them (as opposed to no co2 supplementation). Keeping the water upstairs kind of defeats the purpose of a water cooled unit because I wouldn't be removing any heat. I might as well just go with a regular burner if i'm not going to remove the heat and dissipate it somewhere outside the grow room.

I was planning on keeping the loop separate from the gen. The loop is strictly to cycle water through the upstairs res and bring the heat down to the basement. I'm not sure how much it will run, but I was thinking of putting it on a timer approx the same time as my lights (the co2 gen is only turned on during lights on), so it would constantly circulate water any time the co2 might turn on.


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## legallyflying (Jul 6, 2011)

For what it is worth, while co2 augmentation will allow you to run higher temps, the absolute ceiling is going to be around 90. This is especially true in the latter stages of flowering. In my experience high temps in the latter weeks can have aweful effects on the buds. My jack Herrer for super fluffy. The other strains not so much, but the jack came out horrible. If your growing in an attic you can reduce heat substantially by installing a radiant heat barrier to the bottom of your roof rafters. It's a thin roll of silver material that will redlect back heat from your roof shingles. 
Just a thought.


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## guy incognito (Jul 6, 2011)

Hmm. I was under the impression co2 supplemented room at 100* would be better than a non enriched room at 100*. Neither room would be ideal, but the enriched room would be closer to it's target temperature.


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## 907 (Jul 6, 2011)

Right on PANHEAD, your thread is where I got the idea. Thanks again. Peace 907


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 6, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> How do I know how much my floor can support? 2 55-gallon barrels will be a lot of weight. 110 gallons X 8.34 lb/gal = 917.4 pounds of water on my second floor. That sounds like a disaster waiting to happen


Most floor systems are designed to carry 60 psf (pounds per square foot), but that's _every_ square foot. What's the diameter of your res?


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## guy incognito (Jul 6, 2011)

Wolverine97 said:


> Most floor systems are designed to carry 60 psf (pounds per square foot), but that's _every_ square foot. What's the diameter of your res?


Don't have them yet, but i'm no longer putting it upstairs. I'm going to go with the plan in post #257. I'm picking up some 55 gallon barrels off craigslist tonight. I will probably just pick up a cheap pump from lowes or home depot and set it up as planned but with only a single 55 gallon barrel in the basement, then I will add more barrels if they are needed to cool it.


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 6, 2011)

Yeah, I saw that after I replied... Good luck with everything, hope you get it sorted out.


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## budleydoright (Jul 6, 2011)

GI, don't forget, these still remove much of the heat of the burner with hot water. the water doesn't have to be 65F to be effective. Also if you are just looking for seasonal relief, you could run drain to waste. If that's too wastfull for your tastes, drain to a 55g barrell and water your yard or wash your laundry with the discharged water. I couldn't imagine the water use would be that high.


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## Joedank (Jul 6, 2011)

This is sick gonna find one today!


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## guy incognito (Jul 7, 2011)

Or I could just get a much better pump. 

http://www.pumps-in-stock.com/little_giant_pump_pps-1.html



> 3/8 / 3/4", 360 GPH, 1/10 HP, 115V, residential grade utility pump.
> 
> This lightweight portable transfer pump has a self-priming, siphon-like action that can be used to empty swimming pool covers, waterbeds, drain water heaters or aquariums, pump out a basement, transfer water to an RV, pump boat bilges, pump out stock tanks, and in just about any other application where water needs to be transferred. Removes water down to 1/8" (3.2 mm). Intermittent duty is 15 minutes on 45 minutes off.
> 
> The pump is dual threaded with both 3/8" FNPT and 3/4" GHT (Garden Hose Thread) intake and discharge - which means you can EITHER screw a 3/8 inch mail pipe thread inside the connectors on the pump OR a 3/4 inch garden hose over the outside of the pump's connectors.





> residential grade
> 360 gallons per hour (1,350 liters)
> Power: 1/10 HP (0.075 kw)
> Non-submersible, Self-priming
> ...









I think this might have enough lift to get up there. Even at 30 feet I will be getting at a minimum 150 gallons/hour (2.5 gal/min) [9.35 L/min]

Max head lift (48 feet) - 30 feet (actual vertical distance is only 20 or 21 feet) leaves at least another 18 feet of head. 18 feet / 2.31 = 7.8 psi minimum.

The heater manual says 5 psi is the minimum startup water pressure.


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## boomdawg (Jul 7, 2011)

I didnt see any heat rating... probably want to make sure it will at least handle 125, or 150 for yours, if you havent checked already.....


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 7, 2011)

edit: oops


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## Wolverine97 (Jul 7, 2011)

budleydoright said:


> GI, don't forget, these still remove much of the heat of the burner with hot water. the water doesn't have to be 65F to be effective. Also if you are just looking for seasonal relief, you could run drain to waste. If that's too wastfull for your tastes, drain to a 55g barrell and water your yard or wash your laundry with the discharged water. _I couldn't imagine the water use would be that high._


You must not be paying attention then...


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## guy incognito (Jul 7, 2011)

boomdawg said:


> I didnt see any heat rating... probably want to make sure it will at least handle 125, or 150 for yours, if you havent checked already.....


I have 5 55 gallon barrels. If this pump, or this pump in conjunction with my current pump, will get it from my basement to my heater with adequate pressure then I will put bulkhead fittings on my barrels and link as many as needed together to control heat. All 5 barrels linked together in my basement would give me a total res size of 275 gallons. Heat should not be an issue with a res that size.


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## legallyflying (Jul 7, 2011)

If you set this system up in a drain to waste configuration you will burn in hell. 

It would be a criminal amount of water waste.


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## guy incognito (Jul 7, 2011)

No drain to waste. 

Does anyone have any experience with an inline transfer pump? Much higher head rating, but much lower flow rate. Can they be used together? Will 1400 gph from my current pump do anything to an inline pump rated for 300 gph? Will the inline pump add anything if water is already flowing through it faster than it can pump? I would hate to buy a second pump and not have the system work.


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## boomdawg (Jul 7, 2011)

IG, Ok then your heat issues should be handled with all those rezz's. Dont know what I was thinking.
If Im reading correctly you are wondering about combining the 2 different kind of pumps or if they will work together? I really dont know. My inline works great by itself with 6' of head. But stand by for complications when you mix it up. you may skate though...
Yeah drain to waste is a waste. I think Budley was just lettting you know of other options that were mentioned earlier in the thread that you might have forgotten or not known. Were going to hell anyway but if you drain to waste we all go to hell here sooner.


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## Tommytwotone (Jul 10, 2011)

a standard 4 family house hold uses 400 gallons of water a day and this unit probably uses less than a hundred gallons in any one of our many grows. To balance and justify the drain to waste water usage I have decided for me and all of my 4 roommates to shower together. is this an acceptable less wasteful solution?


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## budleydoright (Jul 10, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> If you set this system up in a drain to waste configuration you will burn in hell.
> 
> It would be a criminal amount of water waste.


Drain to waste is a hanging offense in my neck of the woods. Some areas water is plentiful. 

I think NOT flushing the toilet when it's yellow would almost offset the usage.

I restricted the flow of mine on the return. I may have pumped a gallon or two per cycle, not DTW.

Also, the water is still good, capture it and use to do laundry, water your plants and landscape, etc....

If done responsibly, DTW could be an option for the short term, high heat months.

I should also ad that my experience with this is limited. I ran one for about a year. Had many of the issues with pressure but had mine working with the knobs set the lowest flow. I also used chilled 65f water so my pumps didn't fail. My system was controlled by turning the pump on and off as opposed to some of the hydrogen units that flow water all the time, and control through the DC input. I smoked my first co2 controller with the pump (they replaced it under warranty with a beefed up one).


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## legallyflying (Jul 11, 2011)

So is it all Up and running now? Do you really have 100 temps? Too hot!


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## budleydoright (Jul 12, 2011)

I'm running a tank right now but need gas in a 2nd room. Have 2 controllers and all the equip.
Just need to set it up. Made the first move, relocating my chiller downstairs and upsizing the Rez back to 100 gallons. 

When I first setup my system, I bought into the 100 gallon pe 1k line. I soon found my water at 100+ but the room still perfect. It worked great! After a few days I started looking at the specs of the pump and saw 85f was it's max temp. So I started my quest into DIY chillers.


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## legallyflying (Jul 12, 2011)

I wouldn't sweat the pump. Mine has been sitting in 100+ degree water for the last three months with no issues. Although it wasn't working the other day and after several WTFs! I found out that my rez was empty  That's a hazard of having your rez buried under the deck.


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## budleydoright (Jul 12, 2011)

On the Co2 I don't sweat it, but on my fresca sol lights things are a little more critical. I have a flow switch but i don;t trust it 100%. My room controller kills all heat producing appliances once the temp hits 95f for a bit of redundancy. So the chiller is more for the lights. If I didn't have the chiller I would likely just run a passive system like yours, just not buried. Mine worked very well with hot water.

You know I hang my pump off a bungee cord so it's just deep enough to function. This keeps 100 gallons from being pumped onto the floor should there ever be an issue.


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## legallyflying (Jul 12, 2011)

good idea on the bungie, plus your decreasing head. 

I thing the major draw back of hydro is that every once and awhile you end up with 40 gallons of water on the floor. Can't count how many times I have said..."ok, that hose is running, remeber that". onlly to come back an HOUR later to find shit floating. 

Shop vac time.


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## budleydoright (Jul 12, 2011)

A real bitch when your kit is upstairs over a well equipped office, of which the occupants are unaware of whats 3 ft above their heads! I've had the phone call:, "There's water dripping from something above our office, could it be the roof?", I'm waiting for the call about the sulpher smell everyfew days around 1:00! And by issue, I mean doing something stupid!


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## 907 (Jul 12, 2011)

Budley my friend, you are playing with fire! The last thing you want is a big flood on top of strangers.


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## budleydoright (Jul 12, 2011)

I juggle fire while eating glass with this setup. They are not total strangers, just aren't aware. A total catastrophe would just cost me in money. It's a real pain in the ass. I've taken one of the most simple and pure things, growing a plant and made it incredibly complex, difficult, expensive and at times dangerous! But hey I live in the desert and it's in an attic like space and is actually very stealthy. It also runs unattended all but 1 brief visit a day.


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## guy incognito (Jul 13, 2011)

I got the pump with the higher head rating (but lower flow) that I posted in post #272. http://www.pumps-in-stock.com/little_giant_pump_pps-1.html

I set it up like this:







I primed the pump with the faucet, then inserted it like shown. I figure the hose between the barrel and pump will stay full of water while the inlet/outlet from the heater will level off with the barrel. Seems to be working fine so far. Loud as all hell though. Sounds like a damn lawn mower in my basement.


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## guy incognito (Jul 24, 2011)

Still running good.


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## legallyflying (Jul 24, 2011)

NICE! Mine has been giving me issues lately. sometimes it turns on, sometimes it doesn't. If I had to do it over I would have gotten a higher quality heater.


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## budleydoright (Jul 25, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> NICE! Mine has been giving me issues lately. sometimes it turns on, sometimes it doesn't. If I had to do it over I would have gotten a higher quality heater.


that's been a pressure issue everytime in my experience. I wonder if you couldn't bypass the flow switch in these things, replace it with an external unit that doesn't require the pressure.


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## guy incognito (Aug 9, 2011)

Just got my gas bill, $22.47. I'm sure that's not the whole month since it hasn't been on for an entire month. I don't do much cooking either. My water heater is gas though. 

Just throwing it out there for informational purposes.


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## budleydoright (Aug 9, 2011)

How much was it before? If it's anything like mine, the actual gas is the smallest charge, the rest is delivery, taxes and other charges.


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## legallyflying (Aug 9, 2011)

Well I talked to the guy that sold it. I was having two issues: one, the water was too hot. There is an internal temp sensor on the outlet, above a certain temp it shuts off. I was also having a pressure issue. The el cheapo pumP has plenty of flow but not enough pressure. Flowing water will trigger the ignite button but won't trigger the gas to go. 

I fixed the heat issue by adding two more 50 gallon barrels to the system...thanks for the idea! 

I just ordered a shurflo water pump for $100. It's a non submersible self priming job. Super high quality. I just reviewed my gas purchase history. It's costing me around $8 month.


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## 4tatude (Aug 9, 2011)

legallyflying ive been subbed for a bit just seting back n reading everyones post. thought id quit lurking n post a note. this is a killer set up you guys are dialing in. im planning on using one in the near future, and appreciate everyones trial n error runs, shortens the lurning curve for those of us just coming on board. was wondering how big of an area your system is covering? im sure its been posted just didnt see it. i guess if its a bigger area it will just run longer till the ppms are right... also how would you heat a hot tub, just run the recirk line into the pump on the tub? and if you did this how would it cool off before going back to the w/h? just a few things ive been wondering. the rest is preitty straight forward. keep up the good work everyone...


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## legallyflying (Aug 9, 2011)

I have roughly 600 cubic feet of room. I have the heater turned way down for my little room. The Wh is controlled by a controller so your really just adjusting for accuracy and limit overshoot.

You found the chink in the hot tub plan. The water wouldn't cool coming back to the heater so eventually, the water would get too hot and the unit would shut down. Same goes for my plan to pipe it through a hydronic heating system for the first floor. Actually. I could still do that. Hot water from heater through hose tacked to basement ceiling...an then discharge to the outside Rez 

Free radiant floor heating!


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## 4tatude (Aug 9, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> I have roughly 600 cubic feet of room. I have the heater turned way down for my little room. The Wh is controlled by a controller so your really just adjusting for accuracy and limit overshoot.
> 
> You found the chink in the hot tub plan. The water wouldn't cool coming back to the heater so eventually, the water would get too hot and the unit would shut down. Same goes for my plan to pipe it through a hydronic heating system for the first floor. Actually. I could still do that. Hot water from heater through hose tacked to basement ceiling...an then discharge to the outside Rez
> 
> Free radiant floor heating!


thinking outside the box, if your return line went through a buried drum, or just a buried loop(long as it was long enough) before returning to the heater it would be cool enough. goes for tub or radient heat. could also warm up a greenhouse...can be lots of uses for heat


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## guy incognito (Aug 10, 2011)

budleydoright said:


> How much was it before? If it's anything like mine, the actual gas is the smallest charge, the rest is delivery, taxes and other charges.


My gas bills:

7/20/11 $22.57 
6/18/11 $20.57 
5/19/11 $40.01
4/19/11 $80.22
3/24/11 $72.27

I just noticed that the most recent gas bill was dated 7/20/11, and I didn't have it up and running until 7/14/11, so I think the next gas bill will give more representative numbers of how much I use.


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## guy incognito (Aug 10, 2011)

The room i'm in is about 10'x16' with 8' ceilings. The walls are slanted because it's an upstairs bedroom, so I probably have 1000 cubic ft. I have 3 tents all 4'x4' running in the room. My pump goes on for about 3 minutes every 15-20 minutes.


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## budleydoright (Aug 10, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> My gas bills:
> 
> 7/20/11 $22.57
> 6/18/11 $20.57
> ...


 
so it looks like it will go up about 10 bucks a month. Heck of a lot cheaper than a bottle in a room that size.

How much of a humidity bump do you guys see in after a burn?


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## guy incognito (Aug 10, 2011)

budleydoright said:


> so it looks like it will go up about 10 bucks a month. Heck of a lot cheaper than a bottle in a room that size.
> 
> How much of a humidity bump do you guys see in after a burn?


No idea. I have a dehumidifier running 24/7 and draining to my basement. All I worry about now is watering and trimming.


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## 4tatude (Aug 10, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> The room i'm in is about 10'x16' with 8' ceilings. The walls are slanted because it's an upstairs bedroom, so I probably have 1000 cubic ft. I have 3 tents all 4'x4' running in the room. My pump goes on for about 3 minutes every 15-20 minutes.


im looking to run about the same as the 3 tent area, 8x10 with a 2x4 drying cabinet. do you do the whole room or circulate through the tents.


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## legallyflying (Aug 10, 2011)

whole room no way to manage individual tents...


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## 4tatude (Aug 10, 2011)

guess that was a self explanitory question lol as i shuffle off mumbling to myself


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## guy incognito (Aug 11, 2011)

4tatude said:


> im looking to run about the same as the 3 tent area, 8x10 with a 2x4 drying cabinet. do you do the whole room or circulate through the tents.


I have a cardboard box set up behind the tents with my carbon filter inside it, and 4" ducting coming from the top of each tent into the box. Air goes tent -> 4" ducting -> large box under negative pressure -> carbon filter -> 6" centrifugal fan -> then exhausts into the room behind the tents. I leave it running 24/7 to get constant airflow and take care of the smell. There seems to be no difference in air quality between inside the tents and inside the room because it gets exchanged so fast.


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## mihjaro (Aug 12, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Well I talked to the guy that sold it. I was having two issues: one, the water was too hot. There is an internal temp sensor on the outlet, above a certain temp it shuts off. I was also having a pressure issue. The el cheapo pumP has plenty of flow but not enough pressure. Flowing water will trigger the ignite button but won't trigger the gas to go.
> 
> I fixed the heat issue by adding two more 50 gallon barrels to the system...thanks for the idea!


I, too, was worried about heat buildup in the barrels. It seemed to me, at first glance, that there wouldn't be enough surface area presented to the earth for heat dissipation.

I wonder if a below grade loop of a couple hundred feet of irrigation tubing between the water heater and the barrel might help. Glad to hear that you fixed it with more water.


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## budleydoright (Aug 12, 2011)

I'm looking forward to the winter..... I'm into week 8, things are ripening up nicely and it waas 102f last night night on the outside of my kit. 75 in. Always a bit nervous at this stage.


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## Wolverine97 (Aug 14, 2011)

4tatude said:


> thinking outside the box, if your return line went through a buried drum, or just a buried loop(long as it was long enough) before returning to the heater it would be cool enough. goes for tub or radient heat. could also warm up a greenhouse...can be lots of uses for heat


The buried loop idea could be extremely effective if the logistics could be worked out (how to assure that it NEVAR! ruptrures).

edit: if buried below the frost line, I don't think you'd need more than 100' of loop to keep temps manageable. Especially if it then empties into the barrel.


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## legallyflying (Aug 14, 2011)

There are calculators online to figure it out. The cheapest pipe is going to be the 1/2" irrigation tube. I would think 100' minimum. I'm going to attach that tubing to the bottom of the first floor sheeting in the basement to reduce heating costs in the winter. Also venting lights into heating ducts. 

BTW, the new shureflow pump works awesome and IMO is THE pump. Small, self priming, 3.4 gpm, and up to 50psi! $95. Would actually work money in a high preside mister set up.


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## guy incognito (Aug 15, 2011)

Well my pump shit out. It's not pumping and it's real hot, but the water is cool. Also my rubber hose is falling apart. Does bleach destroy rubber?! It looks like it does. 

:angry:


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## guy incognito (Aug 15, 2011)

The rubber impeller inside the pump was ripped and jamming it up. Replaced it with one of the 2 replacements that came with the pump and it's running fine. I guess I need to drain out the barrel and put fresh water in with no bleach. What do you guys use to control microbial growth if not bleach?


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## Illumination (Aug 15, 2011)

prestone


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## 4tatude (Aug 15, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> The rubber impeller inside the pump was ripped and jamming it up. Replaced it with one of the 2 replacements that came with the pump and it's running fine. I guess I need to drain out the barrel and put fresh water in with no bleach. What do you guys use to control microbial growth if not bleach?


you should only need a 10% bleach solution im thinking, that should not hurt lines...


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## 4tatude (Aug 15, 2011)

there ya go lumi, long as its in a contained loop no harm


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## guy incognito (Aug 16, 2011)

4tatude said:


> you should only need a 10% bleach solution im thinking, that should not hurt lines...


It was far less than 10%. It's a 55 gallon barrel and I only put about half a gallon of bleach in, and that was like 3 weeks ago when I set it up. Haven't touched it since.


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## legallyflying (Aug 16, 2011)

I would just use chlorine for pools.


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## budleydoright (Aug 16, 2011)

I put a lot less bleach in my rez than 1/2 gallon. I use about a cup per 80 gallons every week or 2. My water stays below 75 tough. I also run a UV light in my pond pump.


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## guy incognito (Aug 18, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> My gas bills:
> 
> 7/20/11 $22.57
> 6/18/11 $20.57
> ...


Just got my latest gas bill, $22.37. Seems like it has nearly negligible costs, less than $10/mo. Close to $3/mo. Unless there is something i'm not factoring in here, but it's still 2 people living in the house and we didn't run any heat during june or beyond. Maybe we are using the oven and stove less because it's been so hot, but I think the water heater just uses almost no gas at all.


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## legallyflying (Aug 18, 2011)

Incognito.. and anyone else that is going to use this system. THIS IS THE PUMP!! 

http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200249074_200249074?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Water%20Pumps-_-Utility%20Pumps-_-52067&ci_sku=52067&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw={keyword}


Fucking works awesome. Puts out massive pressure (the garden hose is rock hard when it turns on), it is completely self priming, and has just the right amount of flow. I actually had to turn the flow rate on the water heater as high as it would go! The heater is putting out considerately less heat now that the water is flowing so quickly.


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## Illumination (Aug 18, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> Incognito.. and anyone else that is going to use this system. THIS IS THE PUMP!!
> 
> http://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200249074_200249074?cm_mmc=Google-pla-_-Water%20Pumps-_-Utility%20Pumps-_-52067&ci_sku=52067&ci_gpa=pla&ci_kw={keyword}
> 
> ...



thanx lf....bookmarked...just began grow room construction


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## cannawizard (Aug 24, 2011)

legallyflying said:


> So after finding out that many a commercial "water cooled co2 generators" were simply on demand tankless water heaters, I picked up a small one on e-bay.
> 
> Ran the NG lines to the grow room, buried a 50 gallon barrel in the ground , threw a sump pump in it, ran the hoses, and connected the water pump to my co2 controller. Tadahhh.. works like a charm!!
> 
> ...


--i <3 frosty nugs


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## treetopmmmp (Aug 24, 2011)

Ok, I'm sold but not sure which one to get. Thinking Marey, Eccotemp, or other? I have propane
that fuels the gas needs of the house so I'll probably just tap into that and be done. Anyone have
suggestions for specific models?

Thanks,

treeotpmmmp


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## legallyflying (Aug 24, 2011)

I would just go with the cheapest one. The one I referenced on eBay has worked great once I had the proper pump. Mine is. 6l unit and i use it on the lowest setting. 

The seller on ebu has been cool. The diaphragm ripped on me and he sent one the next day for free.


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## 4tatude (Aug 28, 2011)

legallyflying would you mind posting a link to the heater you bought? i see the link to the pump but i didnt see the heater link. im not too lazy to find just getting cross eyed looking lol thanks...


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## legallyflying (Aug 28, 2011)

I have the active aquah 6L. Depends on if your going to run NG or propane. I would suggest getting one with three knobs on the front. The knob in the center is a burner control knob for summer or winter. The summer setting only uses one of the three rows of burners, the winter uses all three. For my 12x7x7 room the summer settings is the best compromise between how long it is burning and how much overshoot there is. 

Any will work but I think the three knob ones offer more flexibility and fine tuning


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## guy incognito (Sep 4, 2011)

My little giant pump shit out on me. I set the system up on the 2nd floor now with my original pump. Hopefully it works (seems to be for the moment ... for the tenth time). I am going to try and return the little giant pump. 6 weeks of use is unacceptable.


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## cannawizard (Sep 4, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> My little giant pump shit out on me. I set the system up on the 2nd floor now with my original pump. Hopefully it works (seems to be for the moment ... for the tenth time). I am going to try and return the little giant pump. 6 weeks of use is unacceptable.


*which pump is giving ya problems ?


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## guy incognito (Sep 6, 2011)

cannawizard said:


> *which pump is giving ya problems ?


http://www.pumps-in-stock.com/little_giant_pump_pps-1.html


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## legallyflying (Sep 6, 2011)

Those are supposed to be good pumps. Weird that it blew put so fast. One word of advice however is that it appears that that pump works with an impeller. In general impeller pumps do not generate nor like being used at high pressures. The water heater, by the nature of the beast, needs a relatively high pressure. 

The pump I linked above is a diaphragm pump. It generates ALLOT of pressure. I mean allot. When it's running the garden hose is rock solid. Check out that pump if you don't get a replacement. It would work awesome in the basement.


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## guy incognito (Sep 6, 2011)

The specs and features on the little giant pump were designed to operated under exactly those conditions, I don't know why it failed. I set up the system on my second floor just outside of the grow room using the original pump I bought. If that shits out I guess I will move onto the third pump.


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## guy incognito (Oct 9, 2011)

I think my pump shit out on me. For the last week the heater hasn't been kicking on. The pump has been running, but the co2 is ambient and the heater isn't on. Turning the heater off then on, or unplugging then plugging the pump in would kick it back on. Now the heater won't start at all. The ignition just fires continuously. I'm going to hook it up to the city supply to see if the heater still works, and if so I guess get yet another pump.


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## legallyflying (Oct 10, 2011)

My water in my drums isn't the cleanest. When I had that happen I put the inlet house on the outlet and flushed the heater. Worked fine after that. Man, you have had the worst luck with the pumps!


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## 907 (Oct 14, 2011)

You need circulate some vinegar through it, will clean it right out.


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## guy incognito (Oct 16, 2011)

Well im a super dumb ass. With my great detective skills I managed to find the problem - nearly dead batteries. I am back up and running for the past few days.


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## legallyflying (Oct 17, 2011)

Lol. It happens.


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## Joedank (Oct 23, 2011)

thought i should add to this thread i just ordered my second tankless for my indoor greenhouse!! than ks for the tip this trick is the bomb!!!


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## BrutZuk (Oct 27, 2011)

Ok now I've done a ton of reading about using a water heater for co2 gen. I am looking at either the marey 5l or the eco temp. Im going to use propane to run it. hopefully one of you two guys who have been posting can answer:

1. If using on a recirculating system w/ res, can you use the water in the res for your plants? Is it clean?

2. If using for drain to waste, I understand you have to get the valve to have hooked up to a sink, but I don't get it, does the water have to be turned on at all times into the valve? Because if you turn it off..and the co2 needs to come on, but can't get water..won't work right..

3. How do you hook up a co2 monitor to one of these? Prob getting the ppm4 model.


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## legallyflying (Oct 27, 2011)

I would go with which ever model has a longer warranty. 

In a recirc system you COULD use the water...but you would just have to fill it back up do why bother. The water in my drums has a bunch of zone in them to keep them clean. Pool chlorine would be cheaper and just effective. 

Your pump in the rez (i highly recommend the pump i linked to) just plugs into the ppm controller. 

If your going to use a drain to wasts system (you will burn in hell for
Wasting that much water, and your water bill will skyrocket )(easily 200-300 gallons a night), but you will need to install a 110 volt solenoid valve in your water line. That would plug into your ppm controller. 

Solenoid opens, water rushes in...burner turns on. 

You will be dreading the install but when you first turn it on....it's soo money.


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## BrutZuk (Oct 28, 2011)

lol yeah I'd hate to waste that much water. I don't pay for water, but wouldn't want to have my landlord knockin on my door either wonderin why the bill is so high..

Soooo....hmm decisions, maybe I will just go with a bottled co2 tank then.. I can get a 20lb tank filled for 10 bucks. My room is 12x10x9. I can get a bottle and reg for around 200 bucks. The ppm4 I can get for around 200 as well. If I get the marey water heater its 140+D Cell batteries+Res+Pump+Propane tank..


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## legallyflying (Oct 28, 2011)

UP to you obviously but let me just say that a 20lb tank in that room will last about 5 days top at 1500. 

Bottled and tank really cost about the same initially but the tank will cost most in the long run.


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## guy incognito (Oct 28, 2011)

guy incognito said:


> Natural gas is mostly methane which is CH4. It is priced by the thousand cubic feet for usually around $11 for residential. 1,000 cubic feet gives you 44.6 lbs of natural gas.
> 
> (35.31 cubic feet in 1 cubic meter
> 1000 Liters in 1 cubic meter
> ...


Just in case anyone missed it we did a price break down earlier in the thread to show how much it would cost to operate. 

Propane is 3-4X more expensive to operate than NG 
compressed co2 is about 9X more expensive to operate than NG.

It's hard to get an exact gauge on how much NG you are using. I would say my gas bill has increased anywhere from $3-10/mo for a room thats about 20x10x7.


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## budleydoright (Oct 30, 2011)

Another benny of propane over bottled is the convenience of swaping your tank at 2:00 at a convenience store. sucks when your co2 runs out and you have to wait 20 hours to get it turned around.


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## legallyflying (Oct 30, 2011)

another benie of NG is that you never ever run out of it and its even cheaper still. You will never ever have to leave your house!! You can play world of warcraft, masturbate, and eat Doritos and hot pockets until your an old man!!


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## roidrage152 (Jan 18, 2012)

Referenced this thread 100 times before finally setting up my Marey co2 gen. It is the shit. Mounted it on the outside wall with a duct going in, can't imagine using anything else. I ordered a solenoid from China and it took a month to finally get. In a pinch I realized I could use this from lowes: http://www.lowes.com:80/pd_20245-147-CP-075_0__?ipTrail=71.238.52.57&catalogId=&productId=1057907&pl=1&selectedLocalStoreBeanArray=[[email protected]]&currentURL=/pl__0__s?Ntt=Rain+bird&storeNumber=2512&Ntt=Rain+bird&langId=-1&errorURL=UserAccountView&storeId=10151

There were versions of it as cheap as like $12 but I got the $16 one for the fuck of it. I did have to but some cheap brass garden hose adapters, though I would bet there is some sort of compatible sprinkler tubing I could have just used had I done more research. I powered it with an ac adapter the at wason a shelf nearby, however you could probabbly cut and attach any matching 24v adapter u have around the house. That plugged into a cap ppm3 I got on clearance and my co2 is rocking out. On a side note the cap ppm3 works, but u should spend a little money on something better. Mine froze up once and I came home to a burning hot water heater and 9000 ppm co2 in my room. But for 1/2 price I had to buy it.

I know the thread is old but the info is awesome. Had to give some props, there were no more reps or likes to give.


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## legallyflying (Jan 18, 2012)

Awesome man! Glad to hear it worked out. The only real issue I had with my el cheapo brand was the diaphragm went bad but the guy who sold it sent me a free, newly designed one. 

So it sounds like your tapped right into your home supply? Or a well?


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## budleydoright (Apr 6, 2012)

Just set up my trusty old Marey 5l. Had it for a couple of years but only used it one round. Just put out too much too fast for my space. I am now moved into a new 8 x 11 room with 8ft ceilings. My tank was empty when I got in tonight, so I did a make shift setup to get me up and running. Damn it's nice. Already have a 100 gallon chilled rez from my old watercooled light setup so just had to re-route some hoses. i am running 1000 ppm with a 200 ppm dead band. I still get about 200 ppm overshoot even with it set to summer and the temp at the lowest setting.


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## budleydoright (Apr 10, 2012)

Re-plumbed everything after punching a hole through the wall for the hoses. Using that nice US made Goodyear 1/2" rubber hose. Wow what a difference using this in a proper size room. Actually everything in my new room is working better. My old box just didn't have enough cubic feet too support the growth I desired.

System is working killer. I'm using a dual sensor telaire that is made for industrial environments. Running at 1000ppm with a 200 ppm dead band. I have about 30 gallons in the rez and it is barely getting warm. Probably won't need my chiller. I am running my old POS harbor freight pump. It is working great but I know it won't last. I'll be ordering a shureflo tomorrow.

what an awsome way to do Co2. I'll definately upgrade to NG, I have an outlet about 10 feet from my burner so it will be easy enough. Prob wait until this marey wears out first.


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## legallyflying (Apr 10, 2012)

Good to hear!! I would look into the pump I have linked above if yours takes a crap. Its an external pump which is nice as you can just mount in on the wall and it is self priming. As I stated in a previous post, my water heater created too much back pressure and that was causing the pump to work harder and die waaaaaay to early. (the brushes were burning out). Putting a T into the hose downstream of the pump with a valve in it (run of the mill garden hose shut off) really took the back pressure off the pump, you can hear the difference in terms of how hard the system is working. Next to my DIY dehumidifier chiller, using the water heater for CO2 production is one of the coolest things in my grow room. No tanks, no bullshit, no hassle.


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## budleydoright (Apr 10, 2012)

Yea, I've been watching this thread since the beginning. I already had mine on the shelf but always wanted to try using it again. My pump never ran it properly back in then, had to use the slowest flow and the coolest setting. There's been one ongoing problem with these setups, and they are almost all pump pressure related. I did a ton of research on pumps and what I came up with would cost way more and likely still not be right! So I decided to copy your success, the shureflo is perfectly suited to this application and will be purchased this week.

What is your dehumidifier chiller?


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## guy incognito (Jun 23, 2012)

Finally got my new grow room built and set up. Same set up as before, just a new location. I am using the pump you recommended for the last week no issues.


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## nixusr (Jul 2, 2012)

This thread has been a vault of knowledge! So glad I found this before droppin down on a Hydrogen Pro. Getting ready to order my Aquah 6L this week.

Question... how hard is it to wire it to plug into an outlet? To my knowledge it does not come ready for outlet use.


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## guy incognito (Jul 7, 2012)

nixusr said:


> This thread has been a vault of knowledge! So glad I found this before droppin down on a Hydrogen Pro. Getting ready to order my Aquah 6L this week.
> 
> Question... how hard is it to wire it to plug into an outlet? To my knowledge it does not come ready for outlet use.


The Aquah 6L does not plug into an outlet. It used D batteries to ignite gas when needed. You will need a separate water pump to get water to the unit. And it is super easy to wire a plug onto a pump. Just get an extension cord (not the kind with no ground like a lamp, get the one with a grounding plug so it has 3 prongs (ie 3 wires)) and cut the female plug off. The pump wiring and the inside of the extension cord will use universal color coding. Just connect black to black, white to white, and green to green. Twist the wires together in the same direction you would screw them (ie line both bare wires up in the same direction, then grip them and twist them so they get twisted together. Then add a wire nut and twist it down. Use electrical tape to cover any expose wire. Use electrical tape to tape the whole thing together and to secure it. If there is any movement you want the stress to be on some electrical tape and not on the actual connection.


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## budleydoright (Jul 7, 2012)

My Marey5L finally crapped out. Just recd an aquaking 6l off of ebay for 115 shipped. Nice looking unit, internally pretty much the same as the marey unit.


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## nixusr (Jul 21, 2012)

guy incognito said:


> The Aquah 6L does not plug into an outlet. It used D batteries to ignite gas when needed. You will need a separate water pump to get water to the unit. And it is super easy to wire a plug onto a pump. Just get an extension cord (not the kind with no ground like a lamp, get the one with a grounding plug so it has 3 prongs (ie 3 wires)) and cut the female plug off. The pump wiring and the inside of the extension cord will use universal color coding. Just connect black to black, white to white, and green to green. Twist the wires together in the same direction you would screw them (ie line both bare wires up in the same direction, then grip them and twist them so they get twisted together. Then add a wire nut and twist it down. Use electrical tape to cover any expose wire. Use electrical tape to tape the whole thing together and to secure it. If there is any movement you want the stress to be on some electrical tape and not on the actual connection.


I dont know why I didnt get an email alert that you replied back but thanks man for the walk through. I'm buying the Shureflo pump that was recommended in this thread in a week. So using your steps I should have it wired once I get it.


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## guy incognito (Aug 23, 2012)

I'm still rocking my shureflow after 2 months.

I attempted to seal this room completely to mitigate the smell. The plan was to have it 100% sealed off. I know it's not 100%, but it's significantly better than my previous grow. Approximately the same volume as my last grow, but now the pump only turns on once every 3-4 hours instead of every 20 minutes. I am using a 55 gallon barrel as a resevoir, and keeping my room at 87*F during lights on. The barrel never reaches room temperature. 

So anyone having trouble with high water temps, trying sealing your room better, so the heater operates less often. Not only will running only 20% as often save electricity and natural gas, but it will prolong the life of the pump and possibly the heater. Operating the pump with cooler water will certainly prolong the life span too.


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## nixusr (Aug 23, 2012)

guy incognito said:


> I'm still rocking my shureflow after 2 months.
> 
> I attempted to seal this room completely to mitigate the smell. The plan was to have it 100% sealed off. I know it's not 100%, but it's significantly better than my previous grow. Approximately the same volume as my last grow, but now the pump only turns on once every 3-4 hours instead of every 20 minutes. I am using a 55 gallon barrel as a resevoir, and keeping my room at 87*F during lights on. The barrel never reaches room temperature.
> 
> So anyone having trouble with high water temps, trying sealing your room better, so the heater operates less often. Not only will running only 20% as often save electricity and natural gas, but it will prolong the life of the pump and possibly the heater. Operating the pump with cooler water will certainly prolong the life span too.


Good to hear the shureflo pump is still holding up. I just got mine but have yet to wire it up and install it. My room is just about sealed completely just waiting to get a 55gal food grade barrel and a co2 controller. You said your pump runs every 3-4 hours... how big is your room and what do you have your ppm ranges set to? 

My room is 11x11x7 and sealed pretty dam good except for the door that is open for now until I get all the co2 stuff installed and ready.


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## legallyflying (Oct 25, 2012)

Hey gang, my shureflow is still rocking it but I did mention that I installed a t with an outlet and flow control (garden hose shut off thing). So basically when my pump turns on, MOST of the water flows to the heater but SOME of the water flows out the T and into the reservoir. The result is that the pump does not have to work as hard. When I burned out my second shureflow the guy asked me what I was doing and I told him (its a shower in my hunting cabin). He told me that the high back pressure would make the pump work harder and thus, burn the brushes out prematurely.

I tried to find cheap repalcement brushes for the pump but couldn't  all in all still rocking it though.


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## mytwhyt (Oct 26, 2012)

I've read this thread through a couple times and keep checking back..... Great contribution to the growers of the world... The pump burnout was most likely the last hidden bug in the system.. One question, did you just Tee into the line before the heater and then back into the line just after the heater? With a valve at the heater you could adjust it to be just enough to turn it on, and use the same return line to the reservoir..


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## legallyflying (Oct 26, 2012)

I put the T in downstream of the pump, really close to the reservoir that the pump was drawing water from. This way the water coming out of the T just gets spit into the res.


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## legallyflying (Oct 26, 2012)

I guess I should add that you could adjust the shut off pressure on the pump. That little screw in the middle of the pump is supposed to do that. You can use this pump to power a garden hose or whatever in the grow room. The pump is "On" all the time but it only turns on and starts running when the back pressure is relieved..eergo.. when you pull the handle on your watering hose.


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## Rrog (Nov 16, 2012)

So I'm researching water cooled CO2 generators and look whose thread I come across. You are one industrious guy. I'll start reading the thread backwards to see what your latest developments are. Fantastic!


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## legallyflying (Nov 17, 2012)

Well the short answer is... Any tankless water heater..the smaller the better, a 50 gallon drum or two, some garden house, and that pump that is in the link above. 

All and all your in about $300. So much cheaper and easier than tanks. Would never ever use tanks again


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## Nutes and Nugs (Nov 17, 2012)

After reading this thread months ago I bought a tankless for the hot water in the house. I love it! It uses very little gas and makes some hot water.
Tonight I cleaned it with vinegar and a sump pump to remove scale build up.
Have you ever cleaned yours?

[video=youtube;EDUH8Jr0Dyw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EDUH8Jr0Dyw[/video]


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## legallyflying (Nov 18, 2012)

+rep dude. Yeah scale is starting to build up in it I think I will do the flush soon

Thanks again


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## Nutes and Nugs (Nov 18, 2012)

Thanks for the + and back at ya.
I saw that video before I bought the heater and soldered the valves in place. Worked like a dream.


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## legallyflying (Nov 19, 2012)

Nice. Have to love doing things the right way; the first time 

So have you flushed yours? Did a bunch of crap come out? 

Pretty sweet system though huh? I haven't touched mine in about 6 months. All the co2 I want at the flick of a switch.


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## Nutes and Nugs (Nov 19, 2012)

I really didnt see scale or anything come out of it. The water was cloudy at first then after a few minutes it was clear. Flushed it for 20 mins.
The water seems to get hotter than it did before so it must be happy.
Wish I would have vented in to my room but more plumbing and the gas line would have made it a pain.

I liked the idea of running a hot tub with your idea.
Pretty sweet!


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## legallyflying (Nov 20, 2012)

Yeah. Seems a shame to waste that hot water. I am having a buddy build me a grow "bunker" under the basement of his new house and my co2 burner is going to preheat the water for his radiant floor hearing system


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## guy incognito (Nov 21, 2012)

I think you guys need to seal your rooms better. My water never gets above room temperature because the unit doesn't run long enough. I use a 55 gallon barrel and my room is like 22x10. Only comes on for a few minutes, then stays off for hours.


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## legallyflying (Nov 21, 2012)

guy incognito said:


> I think you guys need to seal your rooms better. My water never gets above room temperature because the unit doesn't run long enough. I use a 55 gallon barrel and my room is like 22x10. Only comes on for a few minutes, then stays off for hours.



And I think you should grow bigger plants  

Mine definitely comes on more when the plants are bigger. I've tried to seal the room as best as possible. Its hard with AC hoods...even sealing the edges with packing tape and sealing the ducts. Typically mine runs about 3 times and hour for about 3-5 minutes. But then again, my flower room is CRAMMED with plants. Out of a 12X10 room the only place you can really walk is 1.5' by 10.


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## zer0ed (Dec 3, 2012)

took me a few days but i finally made it to the end of this thread.
good read.


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## legallyflying (Dec 3, 2012)

Congrats man. Now go pick up a pump and cheap tankless heater. Co2 baby!


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## GrowinTheDank (Dec 22, 2012)

Any ideas for running CO2 with a passive intake setup?


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## legallyflying (Dec 22, 2012)

Ummm huh? Not sure what you mean.


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## Velvet Elvis (Jan 21, 2013)

how loud is the pump. I bought a simer 1/12 hp and everything works but it is loud. The t you mention for back pressure is it the same as the control valves you can get? female end on one end male on the other with like a ball valve with an outlet to regulate flow? than you put one in input hose and output hose and connect with a shorty hose? looks like an H when done I suppose?

my room is 10x8x8 it comes on every 20 minutes like clockwork, for 1.5 minutes. I have an element controller, with a camp chef triton propane heater. ppms go up to 2000ish and kicks on around 1450 20 min later. Kind of wish i had a controller with deadband.

Million dollar question- what is your average co2 without a burner on. I was surprised that my whole house is anywhere between 800-1150. I always thought it was more around 3-500. i know geographics and industry play a role but hmm.


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## legallyflying (Jan 22, 2013)

My pressure relieve is a T that is placed in the line coming from the pump. The T end has a hose on it with a simple garden hose shut off controller on it. My pump is quieter with less pressure but that is because its a diaphragm pump. 

The ambient co2 level is between 350-400. Slightly higher near freeways and urban areas.


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## roidrage152 (Feb 7, 2013)

Just updating my experience on these things. I've actually gone through several of them. It seems like the life-cycle on these isnt terribly long. I've tried all the low end ones from the different companies on amazon, and ebay. Probably after about 6-8 months they start acting up and will basically stop lighting. They are actually supposed to be very easy to repair if you are handy, It just seemed to complicated and risky for me. Each time it has been the same thing, a rubber peice inside wearing out, as I did have one repaired under warranty and they told me what was wrong. They are so cheap compared to tanks that I dont even care about throwing them away every 6 months and buying a new one, but recently i did get a more expensive model. Seems like much better quality, however it does work better, and my water bills have gone up since its heating more water and draining more to waste even on the lowest setting. This is the water heater I'm using now, no more batteries and much better construction. As stated before if you arent using a recirculating system of some sort it does waste more water. http://www.globalindustrial.com/g/plumbing/water-heaters/Tankless-Water-Heaters-Gas/ecotemp-tankless-gas-heaters

I think my breakage might be related to my hard water. I've tried the compatible sediment filters, but the ones I've gotten have been complete garbage and leaked badly.


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## legallyflying (Feb 8, 2013)

I did have a rubber thing wear out and I was told that the replacement piece was of high quality. Also however, the guy told me they DO NOT like to run in hot water. So if you have a small Rez and the water is just getting hotter and hotter and hotter, then I would bet that this is causing premature failure. 

The guy who sold mine has been very knowledgable and helpful. Once my gas solenoid was not activating. I called him and told him I thought it was broke because I has it out and energized it and nothing happened. He said impossible; jut clean it. I said, I'm a pretty smart guy and I can tell you it's broke. 

Eet not boke, u cwean and ashremble, it wok good. I wiped off the seals and re-installed it... Son of a bitch has been working great for 4 months now.


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## jrainman (Feb 8, 2013)

Just really great injinuity took me awhile to read here I am at the end, I have one question why have not any of you guys running this system experimented with hydronic bolier pumps Like Taco or B&G , they are very resonable in price 50 t0 70 $ and all the moving parts are made of brass, they move 180 deg water on average and a residental size pump can push 3 storys easaly designed to on and off many times a day. may be I missng something ?, Oh and legallyflying ,most likly the reason you have problems with your gas valve solenoid , is that you do not have a drip leg on your gas line ,so you are moving a bit of moisture threw your gas valve, if you go back to post that is like 100 or so a guy showed a piping diagram to a gas water heater , he was talking about taking the plug off and tapping in , Big No that is a drip line by code it must be installed ,but that what you need to do ,gas mains have lots of water in them because there under pressure and as they travel the pressure is reduced and even reduced at your house so pressure and temp inside the pipe changes and crating water,any how get a T and a 6inch nipple and a cap install like the diagram , I dont no SH about growing but learning here ,but over 30 yrs HVAC exper.


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## guy incognito (Feb 10, 2013)

That was me that posted the diagram with the drip leg by the hot water heater. I ended up tapping in some place else after learning the function of the drip leg.

I have been using the same hot water heater (*Aquah 6L) *for over a year with no issues yet. 

I have been using the pump legallyflying recomended for about 7-8months with no issues.

I used a 55 gallon barrel that sits on the concrete ground in the grow room. The temperature never gets above ambient temperature because it does not run for very long. Seems to only come on every hour or so for a few minutes.


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## legallyflying (Feb 10, 2013)

Thanks for the tips! I never knew about the drip leg. I'll look at the diagram and google it. 

Are drip legs typically placed before an appliance or will a vertical pipe run take care of the moisture? It's kin of moot on the existing room as I am moving and expanding march 1st but I will be running a has line at the new place. 
Thanks again. +rep for sure.


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## jrainman (Feb 14, 2013)

Sorry for the delay dripleg alway rite before the applliance , ,so first the gas shut off valve then T to make drip leg as the other side of the T goes to the appliance, the problem is recent (by code) a flexable gas line was only allowed for dryers and stoves witch are not really used as much compared to water heaters and furnaces, now that flex lines can be used in any and all appliances I see alot of things installed with out gas shut off valves and driplegs , if you ever took off the end cap off the drip leg you will always find a lot of rust from the moisture that they collect ,as the gas passes through the T the heavier moisture drops and collects. Like I said take a look back in your thread here,I think on the 100 posting area and look at that drawing of the hot water heater that is how you do it , Oh and gas Pressure is at 7 water colum so not much pressure, so you really dont need to tighten the fittings up to much ,I say this because you most likly are using the big box store fittings they are made in china and over tightining them will def crack them ( they are seemed fittings). the other thing only use black fitting and black pipe ,no galvo fitting or galvo pipe. and always try to bring your main feed in at 3/4 inch black and step down to your appliance gas valve size on the other side of the T,this way you always have enough volume of gas for you valve and helps ingnition to fire.


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## guy incognito (Feb 14, 2013)

It's mostly for sediment, but also collects water drops. The theory is that gas, water droplets, and chunks of matter will fly through the gas line, and when they hit the tee only the lightest particles (the actual gas) will make the turn and enter the appliance. The rest of the stuff in the gas stream (water drops and solid chunks) will have too large of a momentum to change direction and they get caught in the "drip leg" or "sediment trap".


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## Nutes and Nugs (Feb 14, 2013)

Not to disagree with the drip leg but I replaced 2 water heaters and a gas heater 2 years ago and found nothing in the drip legs.
I was hoping to find some water or little bits of dirt but...nothing.
Does the water evaporate over time?


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## guy incognito (Feb 14, 2013)

I imagine it would evaporate and escape with the gas into the appliance at some point. I don't think a small amount of water vapor would cause a problem as long as it didn't condense. I think the intention is to remove liquid water from the stream, because that would not be good to have liquid water getting into your burner. The sediment stays though and you periodically have to empty them out. By periodically I mean almost never, especially if you have clean gas which it sounds like you do. You may also have dry gas.

The cost to add them during installation is negligible. It is much better to have one and not need it than to not have one and end up needing it.


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## Nutes and Nugs (Feb 14, 2013)

I agree. For the cost of a T, 6" pipe and a cap it's well worth the investment. 5-6 dollars
There is ambient moisture in natural gas and propane though.
I have some vent free heaters that run on both fuels and they add moisture to the air.
The new 90%+ gas furnaces spit out a bit of water as well.
lol, I know you know that.


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## guy incognito (Feb 15, 2013)

Nutes and Nugs said:


> I agree. For the cost of a T, 6" pipe and a cap it's well worth the investment. 5-6 dollars
> There is ambient moisture in natural gas and propane though.
> I have some vent free heaters that run on both fuels and they add moisture to the air.
> The new 90%+ gas furnaces spit out a bit of water as well.
> lol, I know you know that.


Water is a product of combustion. The hydrogen and carbon in the fuel combine with oxygen from the air and produce CO2, H2O and a release of energy (heat).


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## legallyflying (Feb 15, 2013)

Well, Just for shits and giggles I will install one when I move my burner. 

Kind of reminds me of a anti-water hammer device.. You guys know what those are? Pretty damn slick actually..


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## jrainman (Feb 15, 2013)

Nutes and Nugs dont take this the wrong way but , amount of moisture depend on a lot ot things where you are from ,time of year , how old are the gas lines are in your area ,size of main that runs down your street ,there is lots of factors ,Natural gas comes a long way to get to your dwelling, But also remember this is a National Boca Code ,and if for some reason your Gas company needs to look in your dwelling and see a installation with out a drip leg they will red tag it .(shut off) till corrections are made to meet code, the bottom line is that with out a drip the Gas valve is at a higher risk for a falure. I only know 5% about growing ,but Ive been in the mechanical contracting bus for over 30 yrs , just like growing it takes exp to really learn and I respect that.


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## legallyflying (Feb 16, 2013)

oooh come on. A natural gas leak isn't THAT big a deal. LOL


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## Nutes and Nugs (Feb 16, 2013)

jrainman said:


> Nutes and Nugs dont take this the wrong way but , amount of moisture depend on a lot ot things where you are from ,time of year , how old are the gas lines are in your area ,size of main that runs down your street ,there is lots of factors ,Natural gas comes a long way to get to your dwelling, But also remember this is a National Boca Code ,and if for some reason your Gas company needs to look in your dwelling and see a installation with out a drip leg they will red tag it .(shut off) till corrections are made to meet code, the bottom line is that with out a drip the Gas valve is at a higher risk for a falure. I only know 5% about growing ,but Ive been in the mechanical contracting bus for over 30 yrs , just like growing it takes exp to really learn and I respect that.


I wasn't disagreeing with anyone.
Just saying I didn't find any water or sediment when I replaced some gas appliances.
I assume the gas here is pretty clean.


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## Nutes and Nugs (Feb 16, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> oooh come on. A natural gas leak isn't THAT big a deal. LOL


LOL, KaBOOOOM!


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## legallyflying (Feb 16, 2013)

"Hey, do you smell something?" 

"Yeah, let me turn on the light" 

Dead. All dead


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## treeharvest (Feb 26, 2013)

Ugh, my sureflow is dead! It only lasted 3 months. I have a ball valve installed after the pump and found I could run the heater with it most of the way open. Is there a better pump or did I just draw a dud?


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## legallyflying (Feb 27, 2013)

Weird. It's probably the brushes. They WILL replace it free of charge. They don't even want the old one.


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## treeharvest (Feb 27, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Weird. It's probably the brushes. They WILL replace it free of charge. They don't even want the old one.


Thanks! Ill give them a call.


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## guy incognito (Mar 8, 2013)

I went into the grow room and my pump is running, and it is super hot, but the heater is not running. I unplugged it and am waiting for it to cool down before I try to run it again. Will the pump continuously run if the heater does not turn on? Does it sound like the pump is fucked? Or does it sound like another issue? It is the sureflow pump. It's been in operation for about 8 months.


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## guy incognito (Mar 8, 2013)

I let it cool for about 3 hours and plugged it back in. The pump was running but the heater was not turning on. I partially closed the ball valve on the drain-to-barrel line that tees from the pump-to-heater line, which increased pressure to the heater, which turned it on. So everything is working, although i'm afraid there might be an underlying problem with the pump or the heater. The pump sounds like it is working harder now that it is operation under more pressure. Anyone got any ideas? Maybe something is getting gunked up and restricted? Or the pump is getting worn?


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## legallyflying (Mar 11, 2013)

I have the same issue with my heater. it kept being a pain in the arse so I just ordered a new one. You might want to flush it with a 3 to 1 solution of CLR which is just a pipe decalcifier you can buy pretty much anywhere. 3 parts water, 1 of CLR. 

Its possible that your pipes are getting clogged up. your suppose to flush tankless heaters once a year.


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## damiana (Mar 16, 2013)

Hello Everyone, First post on the Forum and first time grower, long time forum researcher though. I read through this entire thread and many others, I can't seem to get enough, great info. 

My first question is to legallyflying (or anyone else), can you illustrate your new pump setup. From what I gather, it is outside the rez, pulls water in with 1/2" hose (is this hose coming from the top of the rez or bottom) and then pumps out using another hose to the AQUAH. And the pump is plugged into your CO2 monitor which turns the pump on and off as needed? 

The AQUAH is battery powered right, so it turns on when water flows through it?

Buying a 55 gallon drum, hoses and I think the CAP fuzzy monitor today. With an AQUAH heater soon after. I just don't know what pump to use, or rather how to use the one you suggested. 

Thanks.

Damiana


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## legallyflying (Mar 16, 2013)

High pressure low volume pump. Yes from the barrel to heater and back to barrel. Any think of the rand of pump right now but there is a link above.


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## roidrage152 (Mar 26, 2013)

Glad to see this post still alive after all this time. I've had now in 2 years 3 diaphrams go bad in my cheapo water heaters. I did send 1 back for repair mainly because I wanted to know what kept happening. I think its just a flaw in these because they aren't actually meant to be full time water heaters really. I did recently upgrade to a $300 model of heater that actually has digital temp read out, and AC power and seems to be running well and made better quality. I guess it will need to last twice as long to make it worth while, time will tell. It definitely does the job way quicker however, pumping up my CO2 levels much faster, not sure if that is good or bad.


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## legallyflying (Mar 27, 2013)

The faster it reaches, the more overshoot your going to have. Other than that, not really an issue. 

Glad it's working well. I got pissed at my cheese dick water heater and bought a marey. Not sure what I did but the cheese dick is still going strong. Marry been sitting in the box for weeks


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## Figong (Mar 27, 2013)

Sub'd for this, and all future discussion it - hell of an idea, and am sure that the savings are phenomenal


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## legallyflying (Mar 27, 2013)

Once you buy the gear, the co2 is essentially free. (At least when burning NG)


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## Figong (Mar 27, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Once you buy the gear, the co2 is essentially free. (At least when burning NG)


Have NG for furnace and hot water heater.. and there's really no way you can justify not getting one of these if you grow more than a small room... I'm really diggin' it, and was trying to figure out ways I'd have to explain to the wife as to why the welding supply truck would keep pulling up. This does the job, and saves cash. After quarantine room is done being constructed, am going to pick up the goodies and get this ball movin'


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## legallyflying (Mar 28, 2013)

Just as an FYI. The barrels of water really need to go outside. I recently moved my stuff and have the barrels downstairs. While they do put off a good amount of hear and keep the basement warm, they have to be covered or it's like a jungle down there. They radiate heat for sure. 

Also. Make sure you get the shure way pump and run a small pressure release T. You may not need one if you have a big heater but the pump is rated higher than 6 or 8 lpm and that flow difference builds pressure. Which makes the pump work harder, which an burn out the brushes. Other than that, it's really straight forward

Also, the gas line sealer you brush on is much easier than the yellow Teflon take


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## guy incognito (Mar 28, 2013)

I use a 55 gallon barrel directly on concrete and the water stays below room temperature. I'm running 2400 watts total lights. The pump only kicks on every our or so with a moderate amount of overshoot.


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## Figong (Mar 29, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Just as an FYI. The barrels of water really need to go outside. I recently moved my stuff and have the barrels downstairs. While they do put off a good amount of hear and keep the basement warm, they have to be covered or it's like a jungle down there. They radiate heat for sure.
> 
> Also. Make sure you get the shure way pump and run a small pressure release T. You may not need one if you have a big heater but the pump is rated higher than 6 or 8 lpm and that flow difference builds pressure. Which makes the pump work harder, which an burn out the brushes. Other than that, it's really straight forward
> 
> Also, the gas line sealer you brush on is much easier than the yellow Teflon take


Noted, 2-3ft underground to avoid freezing, and overheating? I'm in a climate that can go from 80-90F summers to 20F-ish below in winter.


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## legallyflying (Mar 29, 2013)

Yeah that's weird. Mine runs probably every 15 minutes or so. Could have leaks somewhere..I mean I do have 14 AC hoods in there. That is a lot of chances for leaks. Either way, I can't hold my hand in the water during veg. It's probably 120 

Oh yeah. It's shureflo not shure way


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## guy incognito (Mar 31, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Yeah that's weird. Mine runs probably every 15 minutes or so. Could have leaks somewhere..I mean I do have 14 AC hoods in there. That is a lot of chances for leaks. Either way, I can't hold my hand in the water during veg. It's probably 120
> 
> Oh yeah. It's shureflo not shure way


You may just have a lot more plants than I do if you have 14 AC hoods. I'm only running 3 totaling 2400 watts. 

I have been chilling in here for about 1.5 hours. Smoked a joint. The ppm actually increased a few hundred ppm.


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## guy incognito (May 27, 2013)

My shureflo pumps appears to be dead. No sound or anything when it's plugged in now. My heater is only about 3 feet from the barrel, and only about 3 feet above it, so I think i'm just going to purchase a cheap submersible pump. Every pump I buy seems to have a very short life regardless of the type of pump or the price. I think I will just budget in $25 every 6 months to buy another cheap pump.


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## legallyflying (May 27, 2013)

Did you install a relief valve like I did? Too much pressure=more amps =burnt out brushes.


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## guy incognito (May 27, 2013)

Yes I did. I ended up having to partially close the valve after the heater stopped firing though. Slightly closing it caused enough pressure build up to ignite the heater again.

There is no hum or anything when the pump is plugged in.


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## legallyflying (May 28, 2013)

Hit it with a hammer. Seriously. If it starts after that you know it's the brushes


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## guy incognito (May 28, 2013)

Did you have to replace the brushes on yours?


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## legallyflying (May 28, 2013)

They don't sell brushes. But I had the brushes wear all the way out on one unit. I tried to order similar sized brushes on eBay but they didn't match. If you call them they will replace it for free, no questions asked.


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## legallyflying (May 28, 2013)

Oh yeah..almost forgot. My buddy has what might be the perfect pump. I will post a link later but they are SUPER heavy duty and very quiet pumps designed to run hydronic heating systems. So low flo and high pressure. My buddy has a couple in his hydronic ally heated home..it's 6 years old and has run pretty much continuously


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## legallyflying (May 28, 2013)

http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/taco/taco-pump-ci-circulator-00r-msf-ifc.asp#link


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## guy incognito (May 28, 2013)

I hit it with a hammer and it's running again. Who do I call and what do I tell them, about getting it fixed/replaced? I've had the pump for more than a year so I don't think the warranty is any good.


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## Nutes and Nugs (May 29, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> http://www.houseneeds.com/shop/taco/taco-pump-ci-circulator-00r-msf-ifc.asp#link


That pump is a good deal. 
Your pump will run for hours ,days, weeks but I would order one of those.


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## guy incognito (May 29, 2013)

That taco pump will be able to replace my shurflo in the same set up? Which is barrel->hose->pump->tee->heater. I can just hook the rubber hoses up to the inlet and outlet and plug it in?

And after rereading part of the thread I don't think you will lose CO2 to air leaks in your hoods, because you probably don't have much leaks in your hoods - you would notice that. I think the leaks between the room and outside the room is the problem. My old set up had a heavy quilt strung up over the door way as a barrier and had several holes and cracks in the walls. The leaks were not a big deal in terms of temperature loss or retention, nor did they pose a smell problem if the room was properly scrubbed 24/7, but my heater would run every 15 minutes and my water would be boiling hot. Once I moved in with my wife though, she was totally anal about having no trace of a grow, so I built a dedicated room for the grow, and I sealed every single inch of everything. The corners were all caulked and painted. Expanding foam spray was used anywhere that had any openings. I sealed the door with weatherstripping, and I use towels on both sides of the door as draft protectors. I think a side effect of obsessively sealing the room off was that I get no CO2 leakage. My pump went from running every 15 minutes to every 1-2 hours, and my water went from boiling hot to cold to the touch. Even though I keep my room between 80-82* the water loses heat through the concrete floor faster than the heater or the ambient air can warm it up.


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## guy incognito (May 30, 2013)

Well my pump is dead now. It was sounding terrible, but still working after I hit it with the hammer. Now it appears to be totally dead.

Is this taco pump you linked to the same exact model your buddy has been using for 6+ years? I need to order my replacement asap but I would like to confirm that it really is the right model.

[FONT=arial,helvetica,verdana]*Taco Circulator - Cast Iron Pump 0015-MSF-IFC


*[/FONT]


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## legallyflying (May 31, 2013)

Yes they are the same one but he is not using it for tankless heater. You need to do your part and contribute here. Call taco and tell them you need a pump that will generate 30-40 psi and a flow rate of around 6lpm and is not affected by heat. 

Some of those taco pumps generate good psi, some don't they are very specific. Let me know what they tell you. 
Thanks bro!


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## Sir.Ganga (May 31, 2013)

80 bucks for that taco...Snap it up...That pump here in Canada is almost 300 bucks.


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## guy incognito (May 31, 2013)

I'm going on vacation next week so I don't know if I want to wait for shipping, then try to rig something together and troubleshoot it and hope I get it done in time - or not get it and just leave them for 2 weeks with no co2. I may just go to home depot today and get a submersible pump so I can have it all set up this weekend so that the plants don't have to wait 2 weeks until i'm back and can rig it up. Home depots web site shows pumps that have the required flowrate and can operate in temps up to 170*F for like $70.

I have very little faith that this taco pump is going to be the holy grail and magically solve my pump problems. The last 3 pumps I bought were all designed to operate under the exact conditions I had them operating under and they all still failed far earlier than they should. If anything goes wrong, and I highly anticipate it will, I think it will be easier to deal with a real store rather than an online store. In fact I never got a refund for the little giant pump I ordered before the shureflo. I called the place I ordered from and was told to mail in the upc code, cut the cord and trash the pump, and they would issue me a refund. Never got my refund and was never able to get a hold of them after that.


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## guy incognito (May 31, 2013)

Home depots pump selection is totally different than what they have online. Got a utility pump that shoots water out like a god damn fire hose and the unit will not turn on. Grrrrr. This endeavor has caused unimaginable frustration.


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## guy incognito (May 31, 2013)

Fuck that taco pump. I am going to order a pump that is designed to be used with a tankless water heater on an RV. If that can't run my damn set up then I don't know what can.


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## legallyflying (Jun 1, 2013)

Dude, that's what the sure flow is designed for. Take a chill pill, pull your head out of your arse, and figure it out. A sump pump or whatever piece of shit from HD will not generate enough pressure. There are spinning vein pumps. 

What you need to do is call taco, but whatever, you burned your sure flow out because you were pushing it too hard and didn't have enough pressure release.


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## guy incognito (Jun 2, 2013)

I have used a utility pump before and got the unit working. I think the reason the utility pump I used burned out was because of the high reservoir temp, but it was probably a combination of that and the back pressure. I got about as much use out of it as I did another pump that was designed to operate under those conditions. I was hoping to have the unit running until I got a final solution in place (my water stays room temp so I didn't think temp would be an issue). Currently the only source of CO2 in my room is me breathing and smoking and until I get another pump in there.

I also don't understand how back pressure is an issue. These pumps are designed specifically to run under these conditions. What do people who actually use a pump/heater in an RV do? Just burn the pumps out constantly?


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## jrainman (Jun 5, 2013)

jrainman said:


> Just really great injinuity took me awhile to read here I am at the end, I have one question why have not any of you guys running this system experimented with hydronic bolier pumps Like Taco or B&G , they are very resonable in price 50 t0 70 $ and all the moving parts are made of brass, they move 180 deg water on average and a residental size pump can push 3 storys easaly designed to on and off many times a day. may be I missng something ?, Oh and legallyflying ,most likly the reason you have problems with your gas valve solenoid , is that you do not have a drip leg on your gas line ,so you are moving a bit of moisture threw your gas valve, if you go back to post that is like 100 or so a guy showed a piping diagram to a gas water heater , he was talking about taking the plug off and tapping in , Big No that is a drip line by code it must be installed ,but that what you need to do ,gas mains have lots of water in them because there under pressure and as they travel the pressure is reduced and even reduced at your house so pressure and temp inside the pipe changes and crating water,any how get a T and a 6inch nipple and a cap install like the diagram , I dont no SH about growing but learning here ,but over 30 yrs HVAC exper.


Glad to see you guys are not taking my advice on using a proper pump TACO OR B&G 

Your Pump and water heater Premature failures are do to :

1] improper Sizing of supply and return lines 

2) Improper pump GPM rating.

Its all about moving the water at the proper GPM , the faster you move the water = less heat transfer in both cooling and heating your water witch in the case of the water heater will have premature failure by passing the water to fast through the heater , and reverse effect on your cooling tanks =moving the water to fast will hinder the cooling of the water. Improper return line size will cause premature failure to the pump along with incorrect GPM.

you should properly size the piping ,pump to the rated flow of the heater (GPM) and add the capacity of your cooling tanks in to the equation 

also the pump should be installed on the return side of the system.

But again what the hell do I know.


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

jrainman said:


> Glad to see you guys are not taking my advice on using a proper pump TACO OR B&G
> 
> Your Pump and water heater Premature failures are do to :
> 
> ...


I think my pump(s) and heater are designed to be used with garden hose size tubing. I also think the most recent pump I had was specifically designed for use with an on demand water heater.

I don't see how moving water too fast through the unit will cause premature failure. I especially don't see how it will cause premature failure of the pump.

Are you sure the pump should be on the return side of the system? That seems so counter intuitive to me. I thought the principal of operation of the heater was that it required a minimum water pressure in order to ignite the burner. How do you generate any pressure at all from the return side?


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

guy incognito said:


> Fuck that taco pump. I am going to order a pump that is designed to be used with a tankless water heater on an RV. If that can't run my damn set up then I don't know what can.


You can't go wrong with a taco pump. They are top of the line and designed for continuous use and high temps. You should listen to those with more experience than you. 

Or keep buying sub-par equipment and wonder why it keeps burning up.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

guy incognito said:


> I don't see how moving water too fast through the unit will cause premature failure. I especially don't see how it will cause premature failure of the pump.
> 
> Are you sure the pump should be on the return side of the system? That seems so counter intuitive to me. I thought the principal of operation of the heater was that it required a minimum water pressure in order to ignite the burner. How do you generate any pressure at all from the return side?


If you reread the post by jrainman you'll see that he was referring to low flow causing premature failure not high flow. Low flow would cause overheating and thus....failure.

As far as him referring to the return side I believe he is thinking in hvac terminology where the cold water inlet is return. The hot water outlet would be considered supply. Yes you need the pump on the cold water inlet to provide pressure for the burner to ignite... obviously.

Been running a hydrogen for three years drain to waste. Still working great. (knock wood)


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## legallyflying (Jun 5, 2013)

I hear what your saying rainman but your assumptions are wrong. 

1. I DO have a drip leg on my NG line. The gas solenoid was just faulty. 
2. I have 1/2 " lines (garden hose) coming in and out of the system 
3. It's not about the efficiency of heating or cooling the water, it's really about GPM of the pump. Higher GPM then the system can pass creates back pressure which causes pump failure. 

Drain to waste? I don't know how I would sleep at night knowing I was wasting that much water.


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

joe macclennan said:


> If you reread the post by jrainman you'll see that he was referring to low flow causing premature failure not high flow. Low flow would cause overheating and thus....failure.
> 
> As far as him referring to the return side I believe he is thinking in hvac terminology where the cold water inlet is return. The hot water outlet would be considered supply. Yes you need the pump on the cold water inlet to provide pressure for the burner to ignite... obviously.
> 
> Been running a hydrogen for three years drain to waste. Still working great. (knock wood)


I dont think so. He said:



jrainman said:


> Its all about moving the water at the proper GPM , *the faster you move the water = less heat transfer in both cooling and heating your water witch in the case of the water heater will have premature failure by passing the water to fast through the heater* ,


He says that faster water will cause less heat transfer and cause the heater to fail. That's not true. Faster flow will cause more heat transfer. Regardless I haven't even had any problems with my heater. My problem has been with pumps constantly failing.

EDIT: I realize now he meant the retention time wasn't long enough and that could cause over heating.


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> I hear what your saying rainman but your assumptions are wrong.
> 
> 1. I DO have a drip leg on my NG line. The gas solenoid was just faulty.
> 2. I have 1/2 " lines (garden hose) coming in and out of the system
> ...


Water water everywhere. It's not getting destroyed, it's simply being sent back to the processing facility. That same water has been through dinosaurs, the ocean, glaciers, hitler, and now your water heater. 

Consider the alternative using city supplied water and draining to waste in my situation. It has been approximately 2 years that I have been running this set up. The time and frustration I have spent (above and beyond simply hooking up the hose to the inlet) getting this thing to function properly. I have burned out 3 pumps. I had to purchase all of those pumps, and now are using up small bits of non-renewable resources sitting in a landfill somewhere. I also had to use electricity to run the pump, and to ultimately remove some of that heat (by running a dehumidifier and AC).

Which option would have had the most financial impact to me? Buying 3 pumps, spending probably 10 evenings frustrated out of my mind wasting time, running pumps for 2 years, and creating additional load on my AC? Or the increase on my water bill by draining to waste? 

Also which option has the biggest impact on the environment? "Wasting" water by draining it? Or buying 3 pumps and using electricity to run them and cool the heated water?

I don't know. I haven't calculated it out. I had the immediate reaction that draining to waste is bad and wasteful so I went about trying to recycle the water. Given the cost incurred over the last 2 years though i'm not convinced using a pump is better for me or the environment.


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

joe macclennan said:


> You can't go wrong with a taco pump. They are top of the line and designed for continuous use and high temps. You should listen to those with more experience than you.
> 
> Or keep buying sub-par equipment and wonder why it keeps burning up.


How is using something that is designed for continuous use and high temps (which are not the conditions my pump runs under btw) better than a different pump that is designed to run under my exact conditions? 

And what is sub-par about a shureflo pump designed for use with a water heater (besides the obvious fact that mine died after 1 year)?


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Drain to waste? I don't know how I would sleep at night knowing I was wasting that much water.


Well water, high water table No problems with running out here. Besides it all goes back into a drainage tile which in dry times leaches back into the soil. 


guy incognito said:


> How is using something that is designed for continuous use and high temps (which are not the conditions my pump runs under btw) better than a different pump that is designed to run under my exact conditions?
> And what is sub-par about a shureflo pump designed for use with a water heater (besides the obvious fact that mine died after 1 year)?


ok buy another then if you are happy with it. I am not going to debate which is a superior product. I have installed hundreds of taco pumps.


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

joe macclennan said:


> Well water, high water table No problems with running out here. Besides it all goes back into a drainage tile which in dry times leaches back into the soil.
> 
> ok buy another then if you are happy with it. I am not going to debate which is a superior product. I have installed hundreds of taco pumps.


So you simply state it is a superior product and leave it at that even when probed? Why won't you debate? Please explain to me what makes a taco pump superior for this application when compared with the shureflo or other pumps designed to run on demand water heaters.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

That's right, No debate. Go buy another shurflo. And next time you have questions that you think you already know the answer too. 
Don't come asking for help.

There is a reason why professionals use professional equipment.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

guy incognito said:


> deleted post


woaaah down boy. I did contribute, I backed up what jrainman and legallyflying said about pump selection.

Just because you want me to do all of the research for you, instead of you doing some reading of the technical info.

Or because you are too immature to accept advice from those with more experience in hydronics than you. 
Doesn't give you the right to tell me to fuck off. 

I love to help people when they appreciate it. When someone wants to argue my experience I say go do what you want. I do not claim to know everything on this subject. I do know that taco's are solid. 

It's cool tho man buy another shurflo. It is entirely possible you got a defective pump. I have seen a taco go bad after less than a year. 

One pump out of the several hundred I installed. That was only because the high limit switch was bad on the boiler and it boiled the water out of it running it dry. So it wasn't exactly a pump problem.


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

joe macclennan said:


> woaaah down boy. I did contribute, I backed up what jrainman and legallyflying said about pump selection.
> 
> Just because you want me to do all of the research for you, instead of you doing some reading of the technical info.
> 
> ...


You stated that you are an expert and that a taco pump is the way to go, but refuse to discuss why. If you really are an expert and have a fundamental understanding of what is happening then you should be able to explain WHY a taco pump is superior to a shureflo or any other type of pump. If you do not understand or can't explain WHY the taco is superior then I do not trust your opinion as an expert in the field.

Please note that I am not advocating the shureflo pump, or any other pump for that matter. You claim that I don't want to do any research or reading, but if you go back through the thread you will find out that is exactly what I have done. I have read up on the specifications of the heater and the specifications of the pumps. I have read message boards concerning this specific use and have gathered reviews on the pumps i've used (so plenty of other "experts" as well as laymen all giving me anecdotal evidence that the pump will operate as intended). I purchased pumps designed to operate exactly under those conditions and yet I have a failed pump(s). You have not provided any insight as to why my pumps have failed under normal operating conditions and I am skeptical that a taco pump will be the magic bullet (because the exact same claim was made for my last 2 pumps). 

I also don't see how or why back pressure is an issue that is burning the pump out. Plenty of people use these pumps for EXACTLY this purpose in an RV or out camping and they don't install pressure relief legs on the pump outlet and most of them seem to not be burning out pumps. Regardless, I did have a pressure release leg installed and ran the heater on the minimum pressure I could dial it into and still have the heater run.

I have learned a great deal in this thread, and I think I have contributed a decent amount too. There is a ton of information in this thread, but if anyone wants to drop some knowledge I think there are plenty of people ready, willing and able to learn (including me) here.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

guy incognito said:


> You stated that you are an expert and that a taco pump is the way to go, but refuse to discuss why. If you really are an expert and have a fundamental understanding of what is happening then you should be able to explain WHY a taco pump is superior to a shureflo or any other type of pump. If you do not understand or can't explain WHY the taco is superior then I do not trust your opinion as an expert in the field.
> 
> Please note that I am not advocating the shureflo pump, or any other pump for that matter. You claim that I don't want to do any research or reading, but if you go back through the thread you will find out that is exactly what I have done. I have read up on the specifications of the heater and the specifications of the pumps. I have read message boards concerning this specific use and have gathered reviews on the pumps i've used (so plenty of other "experts" as well as laymen all giving me anecdotal evidence that the pump will operate as intended). I purchased pumps designed to operate exactly under those conditions and yet I have a failed pump(s). You have not provided any insight as to why my pumps have failed under normal operating conditions and I am skeptical that a taco pump will be the magic bullet (because the exact same claim was made for my last 2 pumps).
> 
> ...


Really?

I never once claimed to be an expert on the subject. The engineer who designed the dozens of hydronic systems I installed certainly qualified as one tho. If there was a better product for the application of moving water we would've used it. 

I only claimed to have installed hundreds of taco's (which I have) over the past 8 yrs. That doesn't make me an expert by any means only to have quite a bit of experience installing them. The company I worked for was known for "top of the line" installations and taco was almost exclusively what we used. In the hvac industry installing subpar equipment only gets "callbacks" for failures. Which will soon put you out of business. 

I'm also not saying a taco pump is going to be your "magic bullet" either. It is only what I and several others would use. If you don't trust our opinions that is fine as well. I really don't see what your problem is here. The pumps are reasonably priced, extremely efficient and highly recommended by many. 

All I can say from experience is that taco's have a low failure rate and are a good buy. They are circulation pumps made for extreme conditions. Your conditions are far less extreme so it should last longer. You want something die hard? get a bg pump like jrainman suggested. Cast iron housing, big fucking motor, the thing will run for forty years.

I'd call this route the "magic club" Kinda like swattin flies with a shotgun


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

joe macclennan said:


> Really?
> 
> I never once claimed to be an expert on the subject. The engineer who designed the dozens of hydronic systems I installed certainly qualified as one tho. If there was a better product for the application of moving water we would've used it.
> 
> ...


You strongly implied it by stating that "professionals use professional equipment" (the implication being you are a professional and choose taco pumps) and that you have installed over 200 taco pumps. 

Engineers, experts, and professionals fuck up all the time too. I see plenty of sub-par work done by professionals. I have experienced it first hand. Professionals do not always use professional grade equipment.

For every person recommending taco pumps, there are several other people recommending several other pumps. Plenty of people have sworn by shureflo pumps. I don't know if I just got a turd or if there is something different with my set up that is causing failure. I would like a better understanding of why my pumps are failing when they shouldn't be.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

as far as professionals using cheap products, yes I suppose some do. The supply houses I buy from don't carry cheap shit. The company I worked for had close to 100 ppl and covered 16 counties with a good rep. But hey, I'm just some guy on the internet.

Look man I'm sorry you had some bad experiences and yes, anyone you ask probably has the "best" way for you to solve a problem. Again I can only go off my experience. I like taco products for all the reasons stated before. 

You want something that will last forever by a bg. 

If you want specific information on why......perhaps someone else will give it to you. I cannot. 

Furthermore I really don't care what kind of pump you buy. It's not like i'm profiting from it. I am simply giving you my experience which you want to debate, and now i am done. I have work to do.

I hope you decide something and move on from this topic. This is a great thread. Hate to see it all mucked up.


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## guy incognito (Jun 5, 2013)

joe macclennan said:


> as far as professionals using cheap products, yes I suppose some do. The supply houses I buy from don't carry cheap shit. The company I worked for had close to 100 ppl and covered 16 counties with a good rep. But hey, I'm just some guy on the internet.
> 
> Look man I'm sorry you had some bad experiences and yes, anyone you ask probably has the "best" way for you to solve a problem. Again I can only go off my experience. I like taco products for all the reasons stated before.
> 
> ...


I don't know you from anyone, and I have no clue what company you worked with, or ANYTHING about you. You are quite literally just some dude on the internet.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 5, 2013)

Umm exactly what I said. and you're not going to *know* me or where I worked. 

how many of the people here do you actually know? 

Why are you here asking questions in the first place? 

Trolling I think


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## jrainman (Jun 5, 2013)

guy incognito said:


> I think my pump(s) and heater are designed to be used with garden hose size tubing. I also think the most recent pump I had was specifically designed for use with an on demand water heater.
> 
> I don't see how moving water too fast through the unit will cause premature failure. I especially don't see how it will cause premature failure of the pump.
> 
> Are you sure the pump should be on the return side of the system? That seems so counter intuitive to me. I thought the principal of operation of the heater was that it required a minimum water pressure in order to ignite the burner. How do you generate any pressure at all from the return side?


1 when moving liquid the pump is sized to the GPM rated for the appliance (gallon per Minute )

2) you don't see how the GPM rate of flow effects the efficiency = over working conditions , Well then why are these types of equipment rated on GPM .

3) you should forget about pressure, its all about GPM. unless you are installing a well pump then you need pressure / pressure tank /pressure cut off switch .

4) its all about british thermol units BTU, understanding the properties of removing and adding heat to a conductive source in this case water .

remember basic physics apply here PRESSURE AND TEMPETURE GO HAND N HAND , pressure rise = temp rise

5) So you don't think the pump should be on the return side, Well I ask you to take a look at a basic hydronic heating system (hot water boiler) and see how it is trimmed in (piped in ) look where the pump is installed and look at the supply and return line size. 

But hey maybe the $12,000 cad program I use to design HVAC is wrong , you think they will give me a refund.

Why taco because I also have installed hundreds of them like JOE M said ,most hot water appliances use them and recommend them,just as they use Honeywell for most of the electrical the controls , But the main reason is when I install one, like I did last week on a outdoor boiler with 4'' feed (big Taco pump) = my phone does not ring for a call backs


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## jrainman (Jun 5, 2013)

Pump feeds appliance this line should be bigger you need more volume so the pump does not struggle in laymen terms if you are dealing with 3/4 coming out on hot side of heater you need to feed with 1-1/4 ,you can mess with the pressure all you want but its volume for the GPM of the pump.


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## guy incognito (Jun 6, 2013)

jrainman said:


> 1 when moving liquid the pump is sized to the GPM rated for the appliance (gallon per Minute )
> 
> 2) you don't see how the GPM rate of flow effects the efficiency = over working conditions , Well then why are these types of equipment rated on GPM .
> 
> ...


1. Yes.

2. No I understand what you were saying but I don't think it's applicable to my heater. I think my heater has been getting the proper flowrate though it. I have had no issues with the heater itself.

3. My heater requires a minimum pressure of 40 psi to operate. Regardless of the GPM I have to maintain it at 40+ psi. I have already encountered situations when I could deliver enough flowrate, but not at a high enough pressure and because of that the heater would not run.

4. I don't think this is applicable either. The heater is running just fine and the heat is being transferred properly. The water comes out hot and the unit itself does not feel hot.

5. As Joe already pointed out we just had confusion over the terminology of "return side".


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## guy incognito (Jun 6, 2013)

jrainman said:


> Pump feeds appliance this line should be bigger you need more volume so the pump does not struggle in laymen terms if you are dealing with 3/4 coming out on hot side of heater you need to feed with 1-1/4 ,you can mess with the pressure all you want but its volume for the GPM of the pump.


My inlet on heater is a fixed size. The outlets on the pump are designed to be used with garden hose fittings and garden hose sized tubing.


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## jrainman (Jun 6, 2013)

No I understand you completely, Yes you need 40 psi ,but that comes with flow of GPM, again proper rating and maybe aquastadt and solenoid ,and or like I said before pressure tank and LPC cutin sw.


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## legallyflying (Jun 7, 2013)

If your so damned smart and have installed soo many taco pumps..which one will generate 40 psi of pressure?

Were are not here to debate the semantics of efficency of thermal exchange and the effects of temperature on liquid and vessel pressure. That is all well and good, and I understand those concepts but honestly they don't mean fuck all here. 

The pump goes upstream of the tankless heater. Maybe HVAC guys have a particular lingo..but it can be placed on the "return side" which to use lowly people without Autocad (which I have by the way but I DLs a torent and crack for it as the licenses are stupid expensive) Most of us mere mortals see the return side as ...returning from the heater. 

The tankless has a diaphragm that must be pushed enough to trigger the ignite switch. Placing the pump downstream of the unit would not make this happen. 

Flow and pressure are too very different things. A particular flow does not dictate a given pressure (as the poster above found out) 

Oh yeah.. Maybe I need an aquatat and an LPN cutin? Stop spewing shit for the sake of spewing shit and lend a hand on proper pump selection.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 7, 2013)

most of em can carry well over 100 psi. This one should work fine.




http://www.grainger.com/Grainger/TACO-Circulator-Pump-4PC90?cm_sp=IO-_-IDP-_-RR_VTV70300505&cm_vc=IDPRRZ1 

Oh and grundfos makes a great product too. 
You'll need to purchase a flange kit also with any circulation pump.

Also, Putting an expansion tank in with a pressure cutoff switch would help extend the life of any pump. This will prevent it from deadheading which would overheat your pump causing it to fail. Especially if you are trying to push it to 30psi or more.Hope this helps. 


To change to a diff. subject briefly. 

Has anyone ever checked the exhaust co2 temp on your heaters. Just curious as to what temps your heaters are running. I'm gonna check tonite. I'm thinking it is not cooling as well as it should and I should flush.


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## legallyflying (Jun 7, 2013)

Thanks man. My exhaust is warm but not hot. Even by the end of the night when the water in my barrel is like 120, I can hold my hand over the exhaust for as long as I want. 

Before flushing I would look at your inlet screen. Mine was clogged with all kinds of crap. Granted I was using black iron elbows I had just laying around, and they were rusting like fiends. 

I have read that LCR is a better flushing agent than straight vinegar. 

One last question, will the Taco pump generate 30psi or just withstand it? It's an impeller pump no? They are amazingly silent for sure. I helped my buddy install his hydronic system in his new ICF house and we just turned the system on. Pretty slick. We are Pre-heating his water with my CO2 generator and we also installed a ground loop under the sub-basement (where out 18k room is) to chill our hydro reservoirs. Going to be dope as hell! Dreading the first power bill though .


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## legallyflying (Jun 7, 2013)

I'm currently looking at this.. 

http://tanklesshq.com/flojet-2-9-gpm-12v-water-pump-model-03526-14a-off-grid-pump/

I don't think they have a 110v version but could run a converter.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 8, 2013)

To be honest I don't know with 100% certainty. Most hydronic systems run at a much lower psi. I hope jrainman can shed some light on this. 

That diaghrpam pump link you put up looks like it will certainly generate the pressure you need is 2.9 gpm enough flow? I dunno I never sized pumps and stuff. Just installed em. 

Either way a pressure tank with a cutoff switch is a good idea imo.


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## legallyflying (Jun 8, 2013)

Hydroponic system? 

Yeah 2.9 gallons is perfect actually. The "problem" with running high GPM pumps is that they will create high pressure and this eventual pump failure. I solved this problem by just creating a simple pressure relieve out of a hose t and flow valve. It was suggested to me that I keep the motor cool and so I bought a cooling fin sleeve that fits over the pump. 

I haven't had any issues with it so far.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 8, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Hydroponic system?


Hydronic, like boilers and shit


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## legallyflying (Jun 9, 2013)

Lol. Oops. From what I understand, higher pressure pumps..pumps in excess of say 40-50 PSI are usually diaphragm type pumps. Impeller pumps are designed for higher flow operation. At any rate, for a summary about driving tankless heaters this is what I have leaned over the last two years about operating mine and trying various pumps...

1. Cheap harbor freight sump pump.. Worked for about a month. It's a high flow pump, and trying to push 50GPM through a heater that is rated for 4 GPM = really high back pressure..pump failure.

2. I thought the pump was maybe bad..got another one..lasted like a week. 

3. If your barrels get any kind of debris in them it will clog the screen..flow reduction..heater may not turn on. 

4. If your barrels are too small for your operation= inlet water will get hit, sometimes hot as fuck, which will toast the pressure bladder that triggers the heater to turn on. 

5. The sure flow pumps are designed for high pressure and low flow. Despite this, the flow is still to high which means excessive pressure. You can hear the difference in how hard the pump is working. 

6. Putting a T in the system helps eliminate this pressure. 

7. Heat is a big enemy of brush life. The sure flow pumps are rated for continuous use if the optional cooling fins are added. I added the fins. 

8. Marey water heaters are utter pieces of shit but if your nice they will send you replacement parts free. The ignition control on mine went south after a month. 

9. And lastly, like most things, when the system is working its fuking awesome. Cranks out limitless co2 without virtually no operating cost. The downside is time spent tweaking with the system to get it right. Co2 can har huge effects on growth and yield. But much like nutrients, you have to modulate the amount of co2 based in time of grow. 

Is it ultimately worth the hassle? Absolutely . Anyone who has carted canisters of co2 will tell you that they don't last tht long, are expensive, and are heavy.


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## jrainman (Jun 10, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> If your so damned smart and have installed soo many taco pumps..which one will generate 40 psi of pressure?
> 
> Were are not here to debate the semantics of efficency of thermal exchange and the effects of temperature on liquid and vessel pressure.
> That is all well and good, and I understand those concepts but honestly they don't mean fuck all here
> ...


I don't claim to be soo dam smart just many yrs in a trade , but my problem is that I forget I am talking to people with limited knowledge on the subject

AS far as pump PSI rating I assumed you would know to obtain a pump that is rated for at least the PSI you are looking if its over rated witch is a normal circumstance when retro fitting systems . it can be dealt with , by piping in a bypass system that would let you easy regulate the PSI needed to operate your appliance .............That is a no brainer in my feild,I apologize for trying to help , Good luck with your system.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 11, 2013)

Ok, all this talk about psi and shit had me thinking. Why would a tankless water heater require 30psi or greater to operate? Other than the pressure switch to start ignition. I got to looking at my hydrogen pro and it's psi requirements are 3.5-125 psi. To me if the units you are using require 30psi and you are having problems with pumps failing. I would look into replacing that pressure switch with a lower one. Flow is what is most important to proper operation of tankless water heaters not pressure. 

Just some thoughts I had.


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## legallyflying (Jun 13, 2013)

I highly doubt that unit would turn on with anything less than 10 psi. I don't know the exact psi it takes to turn my heater go, but I have experienced pumps with good flow, just not enough pressure


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## joe macclennan (Jun 13, 2013)

It says it right on the spec label on the generator. 3.5-125 psi. I don't see why it wouldn't. I can take a pic if you think I am making this up. They make many different pressure switches and again, I don't see how pressure is essential to proper operation of a tankless heater anyway. Proper flow is more important as the goal here is to remove as much heat as possible.


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## legallyflying (Jun 13, 2013)

I'm not debating what it says. I believe mine says something similar. Problem is... What it says and how it actually works are two different things.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 13, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> I'm not debating what it says. I believe mine says something similar. Problem is... What it says and how it actually works are two different things.


could very well be I do not know for sure.


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## guy incognito (Jun 18, 2013)

joe macclennan said:


> most of em can carry well over 100 psi. This one should work fine.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The maximum working pressure is 125 psi, but I don't think that means the pump can generate 125 psi. I think it means that's the maximum working pressure the casing and components can withstand. So if you install it in-line then the inlet pressure + the pressure the pump generates must be less than 125 psi. 

The shut off head on this pump is 10 feet which is more than enough to get to my heater, but won't generate the required pressure. head = pressure * 2.31, or pressure = head/2.31 (for water). 10 feet of head = 4.3 psi.

The heater requires 40 psi to ignite (or so the manufacturer claims). 40 psi = 92.4 of head for water. I know the heater has ignited with pumps that can generate less than 92 feet of head, but not very well and not for very long. The last shurflo pump I had generated 100 feet of head.

I don't think that taco pump, or any taco pump from that series, will work on my heater. I need something that can generate 40+ psi with a low flowrate.


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## joe macclennan (Jun 18, 2013)

Could be. 

You really can't beat a diaphragm pump for higher working pressure. 

As I posted earlier if you are experiencing problems burning up pumps I would put an expansion tank and pressure switch inline with your pump. 

Think of how well pumps operate. Same principle. Adding an expansion tank and pressure switch will assuredly extend the life of _*any *_
pump you decide to go with. 

Another thing I was thinking is that I would look into getting a different pressure switch for your tankless water heater allowing it to come on at a lower pressure. 

According to the mfg. specs my hydrogen pro can operate at pressures as low as 3.5 lbs


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## guy incognito (Jun 18, 2013)

Yeah I don't understand why it has to be 40 psi. I guess maybe if you are specifically designing this heater to be used as intended for showers and such, then you probably do want 40-55 psi . I believe most city water is around 55 psi. But I don't really see it as necessary for the heater to function. I could get enough flow through the unit at a significantly lower pressure. Why did they choose 40? If you have a shitty pump that only delivers 30 psi and you are out in the dessert in your rv, then your hot water heater won't ignite? Or if your pump was delivering the bare minimum pressure to make it ignite, then your pump becomes slightly less efficient because of age and not it delivers just _under_ the minimum pressure it won't ignite? What's the rationale for the 40 psi trigger?


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## legallyflying (Jun 18, 2013)

It was just a guestimate based on the listed pressure range of the pump and what I adjusted the pressure shut off switch to. Again, my system is working just fine.


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## guy incognito (Jun 18, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> It was just a guestimate based on the listed pressure range of the pump and what I adjusted the pressure shut off switch to. Again, my system is working just fine.


What is a guestimate?


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## legallyflying (Jun 18, 2013)

It's what your mom used for birth control


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## guy incognito (Jun 18, 2013)

I know what the word means. I wanted you to clarify what "it" was that you were guestimating. This post makes no sense to me.



legallyflying said:


> It was just a guestimate based on the listed pressure range of the pump and what I adjusted the pressure shut off switch to. Again, my system is working just fine.


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## legallyflying (Jun 21, 2013)

I was answering the question you posed on the previous post...what was the rationale ...


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## guy incognito (Jun 21, 2013)

I asked why the manufacturer chose 40 psi as the minimum operating pressure on my unit. That is the manufacturer specification, but I don't understand why it has to be so high. It seems like it could safely operate at a much lower pressure.


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## legallyflying (Jun 22, 2013)

I am no longer answering you because i hate the simpsons and think they are fucking gay. They jumped the shark like what.. 10 fucking years ago?


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## LucidDreamGlass (Dec 6, 2013)

Cool thread im building mine this month, thanks for the info i almost gave those hydro immatation aholes my money. Gonna run drain to waste as i dont pay the water bill or have a water meter connected to my lot. Also dont feel like paying for electricity to run some massive pump, pay for a massive pump, or anything to do with a pump. Im down for saving the whales but the water will just be filterd and drip out of someone elces sink eventualy so i dont see the big deal there. Now if they were using natural renewable energy for electric maybe that would be a reason to run a pump? Just using natural gas in the first place isnt enviormentaly safe, they "frack" soil to get that stuff and farmers animals at the site end up growing extra toes and shit. Anyway thanks gain.


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## legallyflying (Dec 7, 2013)

Hey man, although I think you should be shot for wasting water like that. I do have a electric solenoid valve laying around somewhere. I think it's 110 so you could just plug it into your controller. Remember to crank down the flow on your heater to minimum water flow to conserve some water. 

It's a great system through. Just installed another in a seperate flower room. This one doesn't use a pump but the hot water goes into another water tank that preheats water used for hydronic heating


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## budleydoright (Jun 10, 2014)

Just switched over to Natural gas. Woohoooo!


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## legallyflying (Feb 9, 2015)

TTT

Because basically I just installed another one of these... a big basted


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## noob12345 (Dec 6, 2017)

résurrecting just because this post is awesome and just saved me a load of cash!!!


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## Budley Doright (Dec 7, 2017)

Old thread but I'm not sure I get this, I assume these are not condensing units? I haven't taken readings from a noncondensing one but I'm getting some pretty high CO readings out of the condensing type, I believe Navien just asked for a waiver of their exhaust CO that on startup is well over 400 ppm


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Old thread but I'm not sure I get this, I assume these are not condensing units? I haven't taken readings from a noncondensing one but I'm getting some pretty high CO readings out of the condensing type, I believe Navien just asked for a waiver of their exhaust CO that on startup is well over 400 ppm


Condensing vs non condensing what, exactly?

They're talking about tankless water heaters being repurposed as water cooled CO2 generators.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 8, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Condensing vs non condensing what, exactly?
> 
> They're talking about tankless water heaters being repurposed as water cooled CO2 generators.


I know they are, there are two types. One is a condensing unit that has a drain to remove condensate same as a high effeicency furnace and has plastic venting. The other is a noncondensing with steel vent. The condensing ones that I have tested run very high CO out the vent. I have techs test all new installs re a combustion analyzer (it's the law). These typically run into the hundreds on low fire (based on flow). Just always wondered how they are not getting high CO levels in the grow. Also as the oxygen is depleted and CO2 builds, the CO goes higher. Never thought it was a great ideal is all .


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> I know they are, there are two types. One is a condensing unit that has a drain to remove condensate same as a high effeicency furnace and has plastic venting. The other is a noncondensing with steel vent. The condensing ones that I have tested run very high CO out the vent. I have techs test all new installs re a combustion analyzer (it's the law). These typically run into the hundreds on low fire (based on flow). Just always wondered how they are not getting high CO levels in the grow. Also as the oxygen is depleted and CO2 builds, the CO goes higher. Never thought it was a great ideal is all .


Advanced nutrients used to sell a rebranded tankless water heater as a 'water cooled CO2 generator'. I think you just told me why they stopped.


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## noob12345 (Dec 8, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> Advanced nutrients used to sell a rebranded tankless water heater as a 'water cooled CO2 generator'. I think you just told me why they stopped.


hmmm are those dangerous levels of co?


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## noob12345 (Dec 8, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> I know they are, there are two types. One is a condensing unit that has a drain to remove condensate same as a high effeicency furnace and has plastic venting. The other is a noncondensing with steel vent. The condensing ones that I have tested run very high CO out the vent. I have techs test all new installs re a combustion analyzer (it's the law). These typically run into the hundreds on low fire (based on flow). Just always wondered how they are not getting high CO levels in the grow. Also as the oxygen is depleted and CO2 builds, the CO goes higher. Never thought it was a great ideal is all .


Ive just ordered this: eBay item no: 301137454438 

i was planning on setting the room to vent air like once an hour or something to bring up o2 et vent co levels, i hope it will not give me dangerous levels of co...


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## ttystikk (Dec 8, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> hmmm are those dangerous levels of co?


If an amateur installed one in an enclosed space and ran it excessively, I'm quite sure he could create a lethal environment.

Carbon monoxide displaces oxygen in the blood much more easily then oxygen itself, so it doesn't take much to make people very sick- or dead.

It's carbon dioxide that's desirable, and a burner needs ample oxygen to do it without dangerous byproducts.


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## noob12345 (Dec 8, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> If an amateur installed one in an enclosed space and ran it excessively, I'm quite sure he could create a lethal environment.
> 
> Carbon monoxide displaces oxygen in the blood much more easily then oxygen itself, so it doesn't take much to make people very sick- or dead.
> 
> It's carbon dioxide that's desirable, and a burner needs ample oxygen to do it without dangerous byproducts.


original poster says he has co monitor and he never even hits 1ppm.... co monitor is a must


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## Budley Doright (Dec 8, 2017)

Yes I saw that he had one. I'm just curious how these things are not creating issues? I've seen enough condensing ones that produced huge ppm's and tty is right, as CO2 is produced it displaces o2 as well. I tried to see if they were actually approved by CSA, or any testing agency, didn't find anything but didn't look hard


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## noob12345 (Dec 8, 2017)

just a guess but dosent photosythesis produce o2??


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## Budley Doright (Dec 8, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> just a guess but dosent photosythesis produce o2??


Yes but not that much lol. Again I check the flue gas when testing and they are at times spewing out pretty high levels and nothing to shut em down, most CO2 burners I've seen have a low O2 sensor, these do not, yes an CO alarm would sound but not shut the unit off and once it starts filling the room it just exponentially gets worse. I'm not saying don't do it, I myself would be very wary of using one for that purpose, it would help to provide combustion air from outside, to burner but then your pressurizing the room.


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## noob12345 (Dec 8, 2017)

yes, im curious about this, as if it was a serious issue we would surely have heard of more "bad days" people would have had with them. The one i have ordered, (the item number above) says it has a flame sensor which cuts gas in case of improper flame or burn. Surely if there was low o2 it would cause an odd burn which would shut off the heater. am ordering co meter as we speak so i can check it. would like an o2 meter aswell to do some tests but have just ordered co2 controller and o2 meter is not far off same price so it might have to wait a bit lol.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 8, 2017)

Yes I'm curious to, just from doing the testing I do it seems not a good ideal, but am interested. The flame sensor would only shut the unit down if it was out of the flame so yes it may shut it down but it is in no way a low oxygen sensor. There are many issues that will cause higher exhaust CO Any fossil fuel appliance has the potential to kill and let's face it, we DIYers sometimes cut corners lol.


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## noob12345 (Dec 8, 2017)

lol yep im ordering co alarm now


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## noob12345 (Dec 9, 2017)

just a thought but when you test them, there is no o2 depletion and it is operating in a normal environment, right? I can't see of any reason why under normal operating conditions they should be burning bad enough to produce as much co as you say. I have also come to the conclusion that the reason they do no produce co in a grow op is because its a sealed room and for all co2 consumed it is replaced by o2 via photosynthesis and the unit will only be running if co2 has been consumed, if there are leaks in the room this would act the same as photosynthèses replacing co2 with air, so i guess its win/win situation. somebody else back this up??


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## Budley Doright (Dec 9, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> just a thought but when you test them, there is no o2 depletion and it is operating in a normal environment, right? I can't see of any reason why under normal operating conditions they should be burning bad enough to produce as much co as you say. I have also come to the conclusion that the reason they do no produce co in a grow op is because its a sealed room and for all co2 consumed it is replaced by o2 via photosynthesis and the unit will only be running if co2 has been consumed, if there are leaks in the room this would act the same as photosynthèses replacing co2 with air, so i guess its win/win situation. somebody else back this up??


Ya I'm not sure either but the Navien's do and at low fire they produce the highest levels, like I said they are trying to get approvals to allow for higher CO levels, the limit in the US is 400 ppm air free. And yup I've never tested one in a sealed environment, the ones I do test bring combustion air in from outside so always 21% o2. Things can change re dirt on burner, flame impingement, spider webs on intake, that can spike the CO. I haven't searched but would love to see if the water cooled ones are CGA certified, the ones I did see did not have it as far as I saw. The other thing I don't get is how to get rid of the heat as it must take a huge res to do that .


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## Budley Doright (Dec 9, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> just a thought but when you test them, there is no o2 depletion and it is operating in a normal environment, right? I can't see of any reason why under normal operating conditions they should be burning bad enough to produce as much co as you say. I have also come to the conclusion that the reason they do no produce co in a grow op is because its a sealed room and for all co2 consumed it is replaced by o2 via photosynthesis and the unit will only be running if co2 has been consumed, if there are leaks in the room this would act the same as photosynthèses replacing co2 with air, so i guess its win/win situation. somebody else back this up??


Please keep us posted as to how it works out?


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## noob12345 (Dec 10, 2017)

I have a friend who is a gas engineer. He told me to not even bother water cooling it and just take heat exchanger out but I like the idea of water cooling. The unit will only run for 30sec at a time max. I'm guessing the low setting makes for an incomplete burn. I read somewhere to keep them around 50%. For the best burn. What equipment are you using to test? Don't doubt your results, just curious.


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## ttystikk (Dec 10, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Ya I'm not sure either but the Navien's do and at low fire they produce the highest levels, like I said they are trying to get approvals to allow for higher CO levels, the limit in the US is 400 ppm air free. And yup I've never tested one in a sealed environment, the ones I do test bring combustion air in from outside so always 21% o2. Things can change re dirt on burner, flame impingement, spider webs on intake, that can spike the CO. I haven't searched but would love to see if the water cooled ones are CGA certified, the ones I did see did not have it as far as I saw. The other thing I don't get is how to get rid of the heat as it must take a huge res to do that .


My buddy in the mountains had a hot tub shell sitting outside that he recirculated through the tankless heater. Worked great, even in summer; the unit doesn't care how warm the water is, just that it's flowing. After all, the flame is always going to be a lot hotter than the water.

If I was going to integrate such a system, I'd connect it to the hot water side.


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## noob12345 (Dec 10, 2017)

Why hot water dude??


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## ttystikk (Dec 10, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> Why hot water dude??


The flame is much hotter than boiling, so even hot water will cool the unit and effectively remove excess heat from the room. Then, that heated water can be used elsewhere.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 10, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> The flame is much hotter than boiling, so even hot water will cool the unit and effectively remove excess heat from the room. Then, that heated water can be used elsewhere.


They do not remove excess heat, they just don't add much but yes they add some due to the radiant heat from exposed pipes and the units heatexchanger. The unit does care what the water temp is. They monitor incoming water temp so if your temp setting is 160 and return temp is 160 it won't turn on. Im just saying you would need a pretty big heat sink to lower the temp of the return water to keep the thing running. Not sure how long or often these things need to cycle for to keep CO2 at required levels (room dependant) but that would dictate the amount of heat you would reject. The hot tub would heat up to say 110 then not fire again until it had to even with water flowing, it takes both to fire. And not sure what you mean connect to "the hot water side"?


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## Budley Doright (Dec 10, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> I have a friend who is a gas engineer. He told me to not even bother water cooling it and just take heat exchanger out but I like the idea of water cooling. The unit will only run for 30sec at a time max. I'm guessing the low setting makes for an incomplete burn. I read somewhere to keep them around 50%. For the best burn. What equipment are you using to test? Don't doubt your results, just curious.


Take the heat exchanger out? They don't remove excess heat from anywhere and they work on flow and temp to reduce and increase gas flow to burner. Yes they would not add as much heat to your room as a open flame, they will still add a bit of heat just by the nature of a gas appliance in the room. I've actually given this some thought while drunk last night and by leaving the heater outside the room and piping exhaust in you eliminate the "low oxygen for combustion" scenario. Here is a letter from Navien tech


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## Budley Doright (Dec 10, 2017)

We install mostly Navien, but Rinnai and bosch as well. I've not tested anything but Navien myself that I recall. I don't get out in the field a lot any more to test new installs and the crews do that. And don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it won't work but just to be extremely careful. And I don't think it would kill you if you had working CO monitors but you may find a dead grow room if the plants are exposed for any length of time .


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## noob12345 (Dec 10, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Take the heat exchanger out? They don't remove excess heat from anywhere and they work on flow and temp to reduce and increase gas flow to burner. Yes they would not add as much heat to your room as a open flame, they will still add a bit of heat just by the nature of a gas appliance in the room. I've actually given this some thought while drunk last night and by leaving the heater outside the room and piping exhaust in you eliminate the "low oxygen for combustion" scenario. Here is a letter from Navien tech
> View attachment 4055970


Yes his idea was just to turn it back into a non water cooled co2 gen, by taking heat exchanger out and just re-wiring a switch to ignitor (turning it into a simple burner) probably easy enough to do but the water cooled idea sounds like a great idea, especially for summer time.


Budley Doright said:


> Take the heat exchanger out? They don't remove excess heat from anywhere and they work on flow and temp to reduce and increase gas flow to burner. Yes they would not add as much heat to your room as a open flame, they will still add a bit of heat just by the nature of a gas appliance in the room. I've actually given this some thought while drunk last night and by leaving the heater outside the room and piping exhaust in you eliminate the "low oxygen for combustion" scenario. Here is a letter from Navien tech
> View attachment 4055970


definitely correct (not about being drunk, thats bad , .)
trying to bodge up some sort of flue for those things wont be easy though...


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## Budley Doright (Dec 10, 2017)

Well, there are lots of ways to make a CO2 burner that are easier than buying a tankless and removing the heat exchanger, gas engineer huh. A ventless room heater with o2 sensor would be an idea, $100 at princess auto lol. And it's acually quite easy to mount it on the opposite side of the grow room wall and vent it in . The Navien allows for like 30' of vent at 2" and longer for 3", not sure of the total but thinking 60', some others are the same.


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## noob12345 (Dec 10, 2017)

there maybe easier ways but not cheaper ones..... it would cost less than 60€ and not put out the same heat of a room heater, which seems like a pretty silly idea to me, considering the extra heat that thing is going to put out during summer and its certainly a lot cheaper than the co2 burners from the stores etc. You could do better than insulting by best mate, typical yank, knows better than everybody else...
When you tell someone what you have, they try and give you the best answer off the top of their head and then big heads like you come along and say insulting shit like "gas engineer huh"


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## Budley Doright (Dec 10, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> there maybe easier ways but not cheaper ones..... it would cost less than 60€ and not put out the same heat of a room heater, which seems like a pretty silly idea to me, considering the extra heat that thing is going to put out during summer and its certainly a lot cheaper than the co2 burners from the stores etc. You could do better than insulting by best mate, typical yank, knows better than everybody else...
> When you tell someone what you have, they try and give you the best answer off the top of their head and then big heads like you come along and say insulting shit like "gas engineer huh"


First off I was referring to the fact you said take the heat exchanger out of a tankless, that is silly and not feasible, a "gas engineer" should know that. And once you do that, if you could, which you can't, are you not left with just a burner? You know, kinda like a regular CO2 burner. Fuck man really, it's a stupid fucking ideal. Second I'm not a Yank lol. don't have to be any nationality to tell someone their ideal won't work lol. As a gas whatever he shouldn't offer advice that is going waste you, his best mate, a pile of money without knowing what the fuck he's talking about. Not to mention he could kill you in the process. Carry on, I'm done trying to offer educated advice lol.


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## noob12345 (Dec 11, 2017)

if its "silly and not feasible" why has it already been done by lots of others?! search around and you will find several examples....... 
Educated advice - "And once you do that, if you could, which you can't" (nice advice by the way), is complete bollox, ive looked at the design myself, it takes like 5 mins to take out the internals and bin the water side of things,connect flow switch to co2 controller etc. Yes you are just left with a burner, which still costs a lot less than off the shelf non water cooled co2 generator. Just admit that your full of shit and know FA!


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## Budley Doright (Dec 11, 2017)

Lol ok ya I should have looked at the cheap piece of crap your talking about lol. Good luck with that as far as keeping heat out of your room, fuck me, that's your tankless huh. It's a camp water heater and may perhaps drop the exhaust temp from about 400F to 390F, a high effeceincy tankless exhaust is 90f ... fucking idiot. So let's review shall we..... first this thread is about tankless water heaters, not camp heaters you attach a garden hose to. Second please tell me how that is cheaper or better than the heater that actually has a low O2 sensor that I suggested and please use examples as I have. Your a little kid that doesn't know shit. Ya I'm gonna stick around just to watch this, please keep us posted, love to see how this works for ya lol.


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## noob12345 (Dec 11, 2017)

ummmm learn how to read...I said i was keeping the water cooling and that removing it was an "idea". So now your basically trying to tell me that a simple burner will put out as much heat as a room heater?! Also an LPG camp water heater and an LPG tankless water heater = THE SAME FUCKING THING DICKHEAD! Maybe I am an idiot but then what does that make you? I imagine you look in the mirror and see some sort of genius right? Do everyone a favour and take another look! BTW you if you really read though this post you would realise that I will have exact same setup as OP! Are you going to tell him his idea is shit aswell?!


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## ttystikk (Dec 11, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> They do not remove excess heat, they just don't add much but yes they add some due to the radiant heat from exposed pipes and the units heatexchanger. The unit does care what the water temp is. They monitor incoming water temp so if your temp setting is 160 and return temp is 160 it won't turn on. Im just saying you would need a pretty big heat sink to lower the temp of the return water to keep the thing running. Not sure how long or often these things need to cycle for to keep CO2 at required levels (room dependant) but that would dictate the amount of heat you would reject. The hot tub would heat up to say 110 then not fire again until it had to even with water flowing, it takes both to fire. And not sure what you mean connect to "the hot water side"?


The OP used a kiddie pool inside the building. Remember that the device is being used to add CO2 to an enclosed space, not to heat the water to a given temperature, so it doesn't take as much heat shedding as you might think to support it.

My dual circuit chiller has a hot and a cold water circulation system. If I were to use one, I'd connect the CO2 burner to the hot side so the cogenerated heat could be routed and used elsewhere.


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## ttystikk (Dec 11, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Lol ok ya I should have looked at the cheap piece of crap your talking about lol. Good luck with that as far as keeping heat out of your room, fuck me, that's your tankless huh. It's a camp water heater and may perhaps drop the exhaust temp from about 400F to 390F, a high effeceincy tankless exhaust is 90f ... fucking idiot. So let's review shall we..... first this thread is about tankless water heaters, not camp heaters you attach a garden hose to. Second please tell me how that is cheaper or better than the heater that actually has a low O2 sensor that I suggested and please use examples as I have. Your a little kid that doesn't know shit. Ya I'm gonna stick around just to watch this, please keep us posted, love to see how this works for ya lol.


This conversation went downhill, sorry to see that.

'Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'. -Sam Clements, aka Mark Twain.

Let's try to stay above the infighting.

The unit sold by Advanced Nutrients was simply a rebranded small capacity tankless water heater with a battery powered ignitor and a flow switch. The CO2 controller would actually operate a pump, which would kick the unit on and run until the CO2 level reaches the desired setting, then shut the pump off.

It might be a camp heater. It was sold with an 'ice cap' additional heat exchange device that by the accounts I heard did a good job of extracting heat from the exhaust.

I agree that the space would need occasional ventilation to keep any undesirable byproducts from building up.


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## ttystikk (Dec 11, 2017)

@Budley Doright

There are already commercial scale greenhouses doing something I find even more fascinating; natural gas electrical power generation, and BOTH the cogenerated heat and CO2 are both utilised in the facility. The video I saw was not specific about the heat exchange system. In this way, all of the products of combustion are utilised, maximising efficiency.

I think this definitely represents a big part of the future of greenhouse operations, especially in winter. I doubt such a system could provide for all the electrical requirements of an indoor growing facility, but it could provide all the great, all the CO2 and at least a substantial fraction of the power needs.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 12, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> @Budley Doright
> 
> There are already commercial scale greenhouses doing something I find even more fascinating; natural gas electrical power generation, and BOTH the cogenerated heat and CO2 are both utilised in the facility. The video I saw was not specific about the heat exchange system. In this way, all of the products of combustion are utilised, maximising efficiency.
> 
> I think this definitely represents a big part of the future of greenhouse operations, especially in winter. I doubt such a system could provide for all the electrical requirements of an indoor growing facility, but it could provide all the great, all the CO2 and at least a substantial fraction of the power needs.


We have moved to localized cogeneration here for both power and heat generation with little plants popping up everywhere. Your right about things moving forward, unfortunately at my age I doubt I'll be involved much lol. The provincial government, for the first time in 35 years is reintroducing rebates for geothermal which should boost the industry. I see huge benefits to the industry using that technology as well. I actually have approached one of the bigger producers about doing an audit of their facilities, no word yet . I wonder about carbon tax on these producers and how that will effect things? It's going to get interesting here in the next while as the whole country legalizes, although the government is positioning to become the sole distributor, almost cartel like lol.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 12, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> This conversation went downhill, sorry to see that.
> 
> 'Never argue with an idiot; they'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience'. -Sam Clements, aka Mark Twain.
> 
> ...


Ya my fault lol. Got caught up in the moment lol. I've put him on ignore so not to continue an argument I won't or have no desire to win. He needs to try it as I should I guess, just don't see it removing a whole lot of heat since the exhaust will still be in the 350-400 range, oh well . I've been trying to be good but I drank a bottle of takillya on Friday and perhaps got a bit cranky the next few days lol, all better now . I did think my ideal of piping exhaust into grow (condensing unit) was good though lol.


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## Budley Doright (Dec 12, 2017)

ttystikk said:


> The OP used a kiddie pool inside the building. Remember that the device is being used to add CO2 to an enclosed space, not to heat the water to a given temperature, so it doesn't take as much heat shedding as you might think to support it.
> 
> My dual circuit chiller has a hot and a cold water circulation system. If I were to use one, I'd connect the CO2 burner to the hot side so the cogenerated heat could be routed and used elsewhere.


I just don't see it shedding enough heat from the exhaust to be a huge advantage being the exhaust is still going to be extremely hot, but yes I guess it all helps lol. Guess I'm more about safety and approvals and shit when it comes to gas, call me paranoid but here it comes down to owning the liability when bad shit happens with co poisoning . And your right about using the heat produced and using it elsewhere, a condensing heater would be great to do that, using storage tanks to store and use that heat as needed is a great ideal, we do that all the time with tankless combo units for both heat and domestic water, just think of all the stuff you could keep warm like your grow room floor and bathroom towel rack, always wanted one of them lol.


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## noob12345 (Dec 12, 2017)

There would not have been any in-fighting if he had not insulted me for having an idea. I still don't think it was a bad idea, just go and check out the price of a standard co2 gen. Mine has arrived anyway so we will soon find out what the co levels will be....

wih couple of pics of latest ladies without co2...


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## noob12345 (Dec 12, 2017)

hmmmmm...... a guy called budley doright wrote "Did my latest WC co2 with a 100 dollar ebay burner and a 60 dollar harbor freight pump. Been working like a champ for a year., 30 gallon rez no chiller." on another well known forum. Just a coincidence?


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## jonsnow399 (Dec 18, 2017)

noob12345 said:


> hmmmmm...... a guy called budley doright wrote "Did my latest WC co2 with a 100 dollar ebay burner and a 60 dollar harbor freight pump. Been working like a champ for a year., 30 gallon rez no chiller." on another well known forum. Just a coincidence?


@noob12345 How did it work out? Co levels?


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## noob12345 (Jan 2, 2018)

not setup yet mate, have not had the time with the hols etc, will get on this in next couple of weeks, will post back with reuslts asap.


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## Dr. Who (Jan 3, 2018)

Lets say this about portable water heaters.
I looked at a NEXT GEN III.
I bought a Chinese built portable water heater for 1/4 the cost. I changed the battery ignition system to the proper Volted DC converter and never looked back.
BTW. The portable is the same fucking insides as the NG3, simply a different ignition system..

I don't gas any more. Don't really see the need...Still have a second back up unit in the box....Same for a chiller....Be sure to cover or seal the cooling water tank.....


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## noob12345 (Jan 3, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> Lets say this about portable water heaters.
> I looked at a NEXT GEN III.
> I bought a Chinese built portable water heater for 1/4 the cost. I changed the battery ignition system to the proper Volted DC converter and never looked back.
> BTW. The portable is the same fucking insides as the NG3, simply a different ignition system..
> ...


Ahhhh finally someone talking some sense....lol
If i have problems with battery ignition you might end up with a PM for some advice if thats ok?


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## Dr. Who (Jan 4, 2018)

noob12345 said:


> Ahhhh finally someone talking some sense....lol
> If i have problems with battery ignition you might end up with a PM for some advice if thats ok?


No problem!


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## chemphlegm (Jan 4, 2018)

I own one of those. really expensive to run the sump pump, very safe though with half a dozen redundant go/no go's.
it hangs on the wall now, replaced with a pilot cap 4 burner 6 yrs ago. no complaints on either.
I hosed the water to the other side of the wall(outside grow room, inside barn) to a barrel filled with antifreeze and capped. but...
Controlling the little extra heat from the un cooled cap unit is cheaper for me than pumping water to cool the other.
for sale


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## noob12345 (Jan 4, 2018)

Hey chem, I am going to use run to waste for now, my 220v solonoid valve has turned up today, I was thinking about the same sort of idea but instead of capping it maybe using a heat pump and hooking it up to a radiator in my workshop for the wintertime lol just not sure how hot it would get (if at all). I have been and got teh 10m of copper that i am going to use to run a new gas line from outside my kitchen into workshop, I am also going to run a fixed copped waterline at the same time. I am ready to get cracking on the piping, plaster boarding and insulating my room now. I have moved my tents indoors for now so i can get on with sorting out a proper room hehe! Cant wait to see the difference added co2 is going to make.


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## chemphlegm (Jan 4, 2018)

noob12345 said:


> Hey chem, I am going to use run to waste for now, my 220v solonoid valve has turned up today, I was thinking about the same sort of idea but instead of capping it maybe using a heat pump and hooking it up to a radiator in my workshop for the wintertime lol just not sure how hot it would get (if at all). I have been and got teh 10m of copper that i am going to use to run a new gas line from outside my kitchen into workshop, I am also going to run a fixed copped waterline at the same time. I am ready to get cracking on the piping, plaster boarding and insulating my room now. I have moved my tents indoors for now so i can get on with sorting out a proper room hehe! Cant wait to see the difference added co2 is going to make.


is a great idea. my discharge got steaming hot for thought. I capped my drum to contain the humidity. 
you'll know exactly what benefit you may have by getting your meter first and studying it in the room without c02 augmentation.
place it all over the place to check but the most important place is around the plant canopy. If your air exchange/circulation is able to keep that point between 300-400ppm while lights are on you are golden, no need for more c02. Idid and found less than ideal c02, if my gen died today I'd have another by the weekend. no way would I grow without one in my space.
when I grew in my office in tents I needed no additional c02. I chose it over outside air exchange and love it.
but if below 300 ppm your plants are starving. even starving kids can survive for long periods of time, doesnt mean they're as sharp as they could be right...


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## noob12345 (Jan 4, 2018)

lol! ive got the superpro d1-ppm controller not even plugged it in once yet though.


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## noob12345 (Oct 6, 2019)

Im also going to bump this as It works a treat! I even plumbed my own soldered gas line into my room for it and a waste pipe out for the hot water, I decided not to use a res as it would just cost extra to run another pump etc, water is naturally recycled anyway right? My co2 controller runs a 220v solenoid on the cold water feed I have plumbed in which does exactly as described! The only problem I have is that even after the controller switches of the heater, the co2 rises from the 1250 setpoint right up to 2000 before dropping again. Photos included.....Thats not where i put the sensor normally and that's my RO system that I have plumbed in also! Im not sure if it was on this forum or another but i had a big argument with a so called "gas engineer" and his friend that were telling me that its "not possible" and "too dangerous" due to high levels of CO, I have a CO alarm in the room with a digital ppm gauge on it that has never gone above 0! So this is for you whoever it was!

View attachment IMG_20190224_151646633 - Copy.jpgView attachment IMG_20190224_151651715 - Copy.jpg


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## DrBlaze (Jan 3, 2020)

noob12345 said:


> Im also going to bump this as It works a treat! I even plumbed my own soldered gas line into my room for it and a waste pipe out for the hot water, I decided not to use a res as it would just cost extra to run another pump etc, water is naturally recycled anyway right? My co2 controller runs a 220v solenoid on the cold water feed I have plumbed in which does exactly as described! The only problem I have is that even after the controller switches of the heater, the co2 rises from the 1250 setpoint right up to 2000 before dropping again. Photos included.....Thats not where i put the sensor normally and that's my RO system that I have plumbed in also! Im not sure if it was on this forum or another but i had a big argument with a so called "gas engineer" and his friend that were telling me that its "not possible" and "too dangerous" due to high levels of CO, I have a CO alarm in the room with a digital ppm gauge on it that has never gone above 0! So this is for you whoever it was!
> 
> View attachment 4404178View attachment 4404179


Looks great. Btw what co2 alarm do you have? I think in most places its the law that they don't display anything til they hit 20-30ppm. The only one I've seen that measures lower is The Defender and it starts at 5ppm.





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Edit - I guess there's some newer models from the big manufacturers that measure down to 10ppm


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## xIPhobiaIx (Mar 4, 2021)

Can a tankless water heater get a 2000 cubic foot room (10W x 25L x 9H) up to 1500ppm?


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## ttystikk (Mar 4, 2021)

xIPhobiaIx said:


> Can a tankless water heater get a 2000 cubic foot room (10W x 25L x 9H) up to 1500ppm?


Yes.


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## noob12345 (Mar 29, 2021)

I ended up tearing mine out, i was getting ethylene poisoning and my plants were going into some sort of lockout and the roots dying off, gone back to vented and everything seems fine except for the odd user error in the soup department.


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## xIPhobiaIx (Mar 29, 2021)

noob12345 said:


> I ended up tearing mine out, i was getting ethylene poisoning and my plants were going into some sort of lockout and the roots dying off, gone back to vented and everything seems fine except for the odd user error in the soup department.


That is crazy. Were you using natural gas or propane? I thought that when burned correctly it should only give off CO2 and when not burned correctly it gives off CO (dangerous). I wonder where the ethylene could of come from. What model where you using?


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## noob12345 (Mar 29, 2021)

xIPhobiaIx said:


> That is crazy. Were you using natural gas or propane? I thought that when burned correctly it should only give off CO2 and when not burned correctly it gives off CO (dangerous). I wonder where the ethylene could of come from. What model where you using?


Im not sure what was causing it 100% but i am 100% that it was killing my plants while switched on, I have a brand new co2 controller for sale but i am in EU.


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