# Perception is reality



## doc111 (Jan 8, 2010)

Perception is reality. Our perception is part of what shapes who we are, how we feel about the world and our fellow human beings. The things we read, see and are taught, all are part of our perception. It's how those things are perceived which dictates the emotion we attach to said perception. 

The schizophrenic sees an angry mob screaming and throwing things at him. It's a hallucination but to him at that moment during a psychotic episode the mob is REAL! A lot of schizophrenics are labeled "paranoid schizophrenics". Well wouldn't you be paranoid if you had angry mobs screaming at you for no apparent reason?


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## ruderalis88 (Jan 8, 2010)

i don't actually disagree with any of that but it's a limited view on a hugely complex subject....

e.g. when you stick a straight pencil in a glass of water it looks like it's bent. is that reality?


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## doc111 (Jan 8, 2010)

ruderalis88 said:


> i don't actually disagree with any of that but it's a limited view on a hugely complex subject....
> 
> e.g. when you stick a straight pencil in a glass of water it looks like it's bent. is that reality?


Of course it is. If you believe the pencil to be bent, then it is. You could argue the point forever but to some it is reality. Humans knew the world to be flat at one time. It does look flat when you're standing on it.


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## ruderalis88 (Jan 8, 2010)

yeah alright i see what you're saying. sort of 'in the eye of the beholder' type of thing. dunno if that's quite my reality though haha


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## doc111 (Jan 8, 2010)

ruderalis88 said:


> yeah alright i see what you're saying. sort of 'in the eye of the beholder' type of thing. dunno if that's quite my reality though haha


That's part of it.


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## NOWitall (Jan 8, 2010)

well..... no

perception is not reality. ok well..... ok you can percieve reality. but that doesnt make what is perceived reality....... ok jus a sec

to say that perception is reality would suggest anything outside the available senses is nonexistant. 

its the 3 blind guys that find an elephant
one feels the tail and thinks its a snake
one feels the leg and thinks its a tree
one feels the side and thinks its a wall

i guess one could say perception is subjective reality

but then reality is just a way of saying anything that didnt happen yesterday wont happen tomorrow.

but i mean at this point we have to get into alot of really heady shit.

like the old riddle

if we know through our senses and our senses are imperfect then how can we know anything
or if we dont know through our senses then how do we know
or if we do know through our senses then how do we perceive abstractions like truth and justice

or 

when you look in the mirror, are you the original, or the reflection, and is their anyway to know for sure.

reality is an abstraction, being somewhat negotiable and open ended. perception is subjective.

to somebody thats never heard, sound is not a part of reality.
blind people dont beleive in color
and black people dont beleive in the blind (im just shittin with yall, and no im not rascist)

lets settle on 

the subjective interpretations of our individual perceptions provides the framework for what we perceive to be reality


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## ruderalis88 (Jan 8, 2010)

NOWitall said:


> the subjective interpretations of our individual perceptions provides the framework for what we perceive to be reality


i'm all for that too but it's too big a subject to be able to summerise all of it. 

we know our senses aren't always correct but we do rely on them. 
our perception of sensations are also not always correct.
it's entirely possible that reality as we 'know' it is entirely an illusion and none of us truly exist, vaguely matrix style.

it's a right big pickle when you're baked anyway, mind blowing shit haha


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## Woomeister (Jan 8, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Perception is reality. *Our* perception is part of what shapes who *we* are, how we feel about the world and our fellow human beings. The things *we* read, see and are taught, all are part of our perception. It's how those things are perceived which dictates the emotion *we* attach to said perception.
> 
> *The schizophrenic* sees an angry mob screaming and throwing things at him. It's a hallucination but *to him* at that moment during a psychotic episode the mob is REAL! A lot of schizophrenics are labeled "paranoid schizophrenics". Well wouldn't you be paranoid if you had angry mobs screaming at you for no apparent reason?


 Perception is the interpratation of what we take in through our senses. That interpretation is unique to each and every person. I may perceive something totally differently to you, I, however cannot speak of your perception of something with any degree of accuracy as I am not you.


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## doc111 (Jan 8, 2010)

Woomeister said:


> Perception is the interpratation of what we take in through our senses. That interpretation is unique to each and every person. I may perceive something totally differently to you, I, however cannot speak of your perception of something with any degree of accuracy as I am not you.


Excellent point Woo. Think in terms of the other senses and how those play a role in our realities.


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## Woomeister (Jan 8, 2010)

other senses? I only have 5, which do you want me to think of?


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## morgentaler (Jan 8, 2010)

NOWitall said:


> when you look in the mirror, are you the original, or the reflection, and is their anyway to know for sure.


Sure. Make the mirror.
If you know the properties of light, and you know the reflectivity of silver, and apply it to glass, then you know that light passing through glass, reflecting off the silvered back, and passing through the glass to your eyes is creating an image of yourself.

If you were the reflection you'd never be able to reach out in front of you and scrape the silver off the back of the mirror


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## jeffchr (Jan 8, 2010)

this is a good discussion for woodstock.hippie

Cogito, ergo sum

But I have convinced myself that there is absolutely nothing in the world, no sky, no earth, no minds, no bodies. Does it now follow that I too do not exist? No. If I convinced myself of something [or thought anything at all] then I certainly existed. But there is a deceiver of supreme power and cunning who is deliberately and constantly deceiving me. In that case I too undoubtedly exist, if he is deceiving me; and let him deceive me as much as he can, he will never bring it about that I am nothing so long as I think that I am something. So, after considering everything very thoroughly, I must finally conclude that the proposition, I am, I exist, is necessarily true whenever it is put forward by me or conceived in my mind.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 8, 2010)

*IT is reality that is but a perception.*


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 8, 2010)

There is alot of controversy on this as its the oldest ponderings of human existence. But remember:
Nothing exists
Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it; and
Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.

There is alot of investment in assumptions, and assumptions are made in order to fit theories. Theories are made to underpin a pattern of predicability in the world that surrounds us, so the theories we make are part of the system that created their need. So enclosing, why am I explaining myself?

Peace


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## jeffchr (Jan 8, 2010)

Mr.KushMan said:


> There is alot of controversy on this as its the oldest ponderings of human existence. But remember:
> Nothing exists
> Even if something exists, nothing can be known about it; and
> Even if something could be known about it, knowledge about it can't be communicated to others.
> ...


nothing exists is true, maybe

each living thing perceives on a personal level and there is no independent way to validate the perception

so the perceptions could be false in that they don't necessarily reflect reality

or, perhaps there is no reality. all there is, is perception.l

however, the ability of living things to survive in nature emphatically validates the utilitarian nature of perception, thereby giving more credibility to an object reality.


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## mexiblunt (Jan 9, 2010)

Wow. If that all was not enough it takes TIME for what we sense to travel our nerves to our brain. We all lag behind.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

Perception of entanglements alters realities instamystically.


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

*LIFE* is a perception of your reality. "Life is what you make it "


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

Woomeister said:


> other senses? I only have 5, which do you want me to think of?


Yes Woo we only have 5 senses but most people automatically think of our strongest sense when we talk perception, and that is sight. Think of how hearing or touch affect our realities. What about how we learn? Don't we have to listen in school? Which is a big part of how we learn. An earlier post mentioned how a pencil appears bent when passed behind a glass of water. Before someone taught you that the pencil wasn't actually bent you probably thought that it was bent (although you probably don't remember learning that). We may be taught that things are different than they appear but you probably had to read or hear that at some point.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

We consider our feelings beyond your basic five.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> We consider our feelings beyond your basic five.


Good point. How do our emotions influence our realities?


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> We consider our feelings beyond your basic five.


"to feel your 5 senses " 
Physical sensation of touch, such as "a feeling of warmth". Is a perception of your reality yes, but the conscious subjective experience of emotion has to be looked at when understanding ones reality. 

Perception of the physical world does not necessarily result in a universal reaction among ones self or others, but varies depending on one's tendency to handle the situation or circumstance, how the situation relates to past experiences and memories, and any number of other factors. 

Feelings are also known as a state of consciousness, such as that resulting from emotions, sentiments or desires.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

Perception is a PERSONAL reality. Whether it is correct or not is determined by those around you.

This is what makes liberals so bitter. Their faulty economic perceptions keep getting overruled by society.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Perception is a PERSONAL reality. Whether it is correct or not is determined by those around you.
> 
> This is what makes liberals so bitter. Their faulty economic perceptions keep getting overruled by society.


I think CJ has just touched on a very interesting point. You seem to understand the role of our environment and our peers in shaping our realities. Does anybody else see a pattern developing here?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

"Perception of the physical world does not necessarily result in a universal reaction among ones self or others, but varies depending on one's tendency to handle the situation or circumstance, how the situation relates to past experiences and memories, and any number of other factors."

This is why your reality is not my reality.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> "Perception of the physical world does not necessarily result in a universal reaction among ones self or others, but varies depending on one's tendency to handle the situation or circumstance, how the situation relates to past experiences and memories, and any number of other factors."
> 
> This is why your reality is not my reality.


We may perceive things differently which could explain why we all have different favorite foods or colors.


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> "Perception of the physical world does not necessarily result in a universal reaction among ones self or others, but varies depending on one's tendency to handle the situation or circumstance, how the situation relates to past experiences and memories, and any number of other factors."
> 
> This is why your reality is not my reality.


 Emotion or emotional perception or attitude: _a feeling of joy; a feeling of sorrow, anger, contempt, will directly effect your perception of reality._


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

eza82 said:


> Emotion or emotional perception or attitude: _a feeling of joy; a feeling of sorrow, anger, contempt, will directly effect your perception of reality._


*IT* follows then that when your perception of reality is affected, your reality is affected.


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

........ 








:ROFL, letting go a small bit of wee:


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

A reality of ONE, in a sea of realities. We all find our own current streams, some faster than others, some more powerful than others. Some sink like rocks.

Success in life is picking the right current for you, and being able to network with others who share the same stream. Careful which stream you enter, and exit may not be within reach.


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## growwwww (Jan 9, 2010)

Guys lets not be silly,

the reality is obama is gonna save the world


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

He couldn't even save Chicago!!


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

What the fuck do politics have to do with reality?


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## growwwww (Jan 9, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> What the fuck do politics have to do with reality?


Well Politics is one of the best institutions which shift memes around. And memes, are essential what make up what we think and how, which is possibly reality? The truth is indirectly for some it may be purely how they percieve things, through political eyess


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

Politics creates it's own reality and can easily overpower ur own personal reality, unless u have an unbalanced mind. Then you get a pass because no one wants that reality.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

Politics? Wrong forum. This is the other forum that really pisses people off. 

I like the dicussions though. I think our own perceptions of what defines reality perfectly illustrate an important point. We all hold steadfast to our own definition of what is real. Years of education, reading books, watching tv programs, the internet, and good old fashioned life experience shape who we are. There are many other aspects of course but if we believe a thing to be real is it real if only in our mind? Is anything really real?


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

Real... hmmmm a new topic 
In a way to see more clealy what is real, we really have to take away those thoughts of what is reality or not and let our experience decide .


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

eza82 said:


> Real... hmmmm a new topic
> In a way to see more clealy what is real, we really have to take away those thoughts of what is reality or not and let our experience decide .


Perhaps, but do deny our experience is to take away a part of what shapes our reality don't you think?


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

yes, a man inside a box would find it hard to accept his reality. And find Character within himself .


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

Exactly. It what happens to ppl whose personal perception cannot reconcile with societal realities, and a conflict is constantly in play for them. 

The ones who adapt ... succeed. The others ... don't.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

eza82 said:


> yes, a man inside a box would find it hard to accept his reality. And find Character within himself .


But if the man had lived his entire life in the box how would he know what he is missing if he'd never been taught of the outside world?


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Exactly. It what happens to ppl whose personal perception cannot reconcile with societal realities, and a conflict is constantly in play for them.
> 
> The ones who adapt ... succeed. The others ... don't.


95% of the population work for the other 5%


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

doc111 said:


> But if the man had lived his entire life in the box how would he know what he is missing if he'd never been taught of the outside world?


a "MAN" - .....


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 9, 2010)

"In a way to see more clealy what is real, we really have to take away those thoughts of what is reality or not and let our experience decide."

Not really.


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> "In a way to see more clealy what is real, we really have to take away those thoughts of what is reality or not and let our experience decide."
> 
> Not really.


thats just my humble opinion. Reality and real are two different conversations


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

eza82 said:


> 95% of the population work for the other 5%


5% create jobs for the other 95%.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

eza82 said:


> thats just my humble opinion. Reality and real are two different conversations


I guess I don't understand your point.  Real is part of Reality.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

Yes, Doc is quite correct.


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## jeffchr (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Perception is a PERSONAL reality. Whether it is correct or not is determined by those around you.
> 
> This is what makes liberals so bitter. Their faulty economic perceptions keep getting overruled by society.


wrong forum
but I know you can't help it


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## growwwww (Jan 9, 2010)

eza82 said:


> 95% of the population work for the other 5%


 Sounds like the whole Marxism idea, The small few on the top who own and exploit everyone underneath.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

jeffchr said:


> wrong forum
> but I know you can't help it


I think if you read back a bit, u'll see the convo shifted.

I can help you with that.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

mexiblunt said:


> Wow. If that all was not enough it takes TIME for what we sense to travel our nerves to our brain. We all lag behind.


Good point. Similar to when one looks at the stars in the night sky. We don't see the stars as they are but as they were hundreds, thousands, millions, and even billions of years ago.


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## growwwww (Jan 9, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Good point. Similar to when one looks at the stars in the night sky. We don't see the stars as they are but as they were hundreds, thousands, millions, and even billions of years ago.


No its not similar, we feel these things in miliseconds and its hardly a universal lag...people vary in there senses and what not, some people are more attuned and receptors and CNSs work quicker and whatever.
But with your example the star, we all see it at its same period...


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

growwwww said:


> No its not similar, we feel these things in miliseconds and its hardly a universal lag...people vary in there senses and what not, some people are more attuned and receptors and CNSs work quicker and whatever.
> But with your example the star, we all see it at its same period...


The light travels at 186,000 miles/second. How fast sensory input travels once the photons hit the rods and cones in your eyes, for example, is a bit of a complicated definition I'm afraid but the principle is pretty much the same. We are just talking much, much larger time scales with stars. So are you saying that the perception is the reality with stars? Now I'm really confused.................


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

He's saying that no matter how far the light travels, everyone on the same timeline (alive and here now) receives the light at the same time.... there is no lag in perception.

The perception difference lies in the comprehension of the star itself.

Take a person from Rome circa 100BCE, and ask him what a star is. U'll receive a foreign answer.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> He's saying that no matter how far the light travels, everyone on the same timeline (alive and here now) receives the light at the same time.... there is no lag in perception.
> 
> The perception difference lies in the comprehension of the star itself.
> 
> Take a person from Rome circa 100BCE, and ask him what a star is. U'll receive a foreign answer.


I think my example still illustrated a point when dealing with perception and reality. We collectively may perceive the star at the same moment in its sequence but that star may not even exist anymore. Yet to us it's almost palpable. I mean, there it is in the sky. It must still be fusing Hydrogen atoms right?


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## growwwww (Jan 9, 2010)

doc111 said:


> The light travels at 186,000 miles/second. How fast sensory input travels once the photons hit the rods and cones in your eyes, for example, is a bit of a complicated definition I'm afraid but the principle is pretty much the same. We are just talking much, much larger time scales with stars. So are you saying that the perception is the reality with stars? Now I'm really confused.................


Yeah, haha i get the jist of your example its all good in that sense but when you actually think about it its not that similar thats all


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

growwwww said:


> Yeah, haha i get the jist of your example its all good in that sense but when you actually think about it its not that similar thats all


I think light travelling and electrical impulses travelling is very similar. They are both energy, they both are very, very fast. Now you are correct that it's not that similar in the sense that sensory stimuli use a mix of chemical transmission along with electrical energy. Light is just energy. I see your point.


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## growwwww (Jan 9, 2010)

doc111 said:


> I think light travelling and electrical impulses travelling is very similar. They are both energy, they both are very, very fast. Now you are correct that it's not that similar in the sense that sensory stimuli use a mix of chemical transmission along with electrical energy. Light is just energy. I see your point.


Yes over all, the idea of the lapse, for x to get to y is the same. But in the case of the the star, the starts light energy is exposed to us all at the same time. Whereas with the sensory part, some people are more finetuned to things and its a varying thing.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

growwwww said:


> Yes over all, the idea of the lapse, for x to get to y is the same. But in the case of the the star, the starts light energy is exposed to us all at the same time. Whereas with the sensory part, some people are more finetuned to things and its a varying thing.


Which affects our individual perception of things.


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## growwwww (Jan 9, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Which affects our individual perception of things.


Yup Indefintely.


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## mexiblunt (Jan 9, 2010)

I just got that bit from a scientific mind mag. I know from recording school that the average person can not tell the difference between a single sound event or multiple within 30 milliseconds. Like say a snare drum with a delay set to 30 milliseconds. most people will just hear 1 snare drum hit not 2 very close together. Although you can hear that the delayed usually sounds more FULL or generally better for production reasons etc.

It also talks about how different signals travel at diff speeds like a pain signal can be as slow as 60mph. Their example was stubbing your toe always seems to take a bit to feel.


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 9, 2010)

I have that same article.

Peace


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Which affects our individual perception of things.


But importantly it is the base of knowledge within the individual which AIDS perception.

The ancient Roman perceived a star differently than you do because you have much more accurate information about what a star truly is. 

The fact that offhand you know it takes millions of years for that light to get here, is beyond the Romans grasp.

It is the base of information which alters perceptions, correctly, or incorrectly.


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 9, 2010)

But I think perception and the way one perceives things are on two different planes of thought, one is the actually sensory data your body receives and the other is the neural connections and pathways your body or brain use to decipher the data. They rely on one another, but aren't synonymous. 

For example one would deal with hearing a noise behind you or seeing a movement in your peripheries, and the other would be used to understand what this thing is and if it is a threat, or food or not. The thing that is disturbing your senses is there whether your PERCEIVE it or not. You can only know experience through analogy, so as information becomes analogy on which to base your experience, accurate or otherwise, the way we understand it has SO much to do with it.

Most would deny this is how people understand the world but it most certainly is not. We have just developed much more intricate and complex reasoning abilities, we have each created systems within ourselves to fulfill order within chaos. Its just a survival mechanism, and as our species developed more intellect, meant more efficiency, meant more food, meant more comfort in the ultimate reality.

Peace


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> But importantly it is the base of knowledge within the individual which AIDS perception.
> 
> The ancient Roman perceived a star differently than you do because you have much more accurate information about what a star truly is.
> 
> ...


Yes but that information had to get into our brains somehow. Back to perception...................


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 9, 2010)

Look into solipsism, its a philosophy that all that exists is one mind, and by extension only your perceptions. 

Perceptions are certainly the only things we can be sure of.

It is thought that all children are sophists but eventually are subject to assuming everyone has experiences like themselves.

Peace


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## jeffchr (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> I think if you read back a bit, u'll see the convo shifted.
> 
> I can help you with that.


nope, not true, wrong, idiotic thing to be discussing, but wrongo Jack

that post was the first mention of politics me thinks, and certainly economics and beyond a doubt it was the first post slamming a liberal, or a conservative or any other political persuasion


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## jeffchr (Jan 9, 2010)

so it sounds like perception leads to some type of interpretation, and then interpretation actually influences perception


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Yes but that information had to get into our brains somehow. Back to perception...................


It got in there by science. We don't look at the stars the same today as an ancient Roman, because of science.

You cannot perceive something correctly if you don't understand it. There may be an automatic "fight or flight" response form something you don't comprehend, but that's a hard wire reaction.

The more you know about any subject the more ACCURATE the perception.

Without science, perceptions would still be limited to the ancient Roman. He knew what he knew, but really, how much could he know?



jeffchr said:


> nope, not true, wrong, idiotic thing to be discussing, but wrongo Jack
> 
> that post was the first mention of politics me thinks, and certainly economics and beyond a doubt it was the first post slamming a liberal, or a conservative or any other political persuasion


i'm not the one who's lost here ...


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> It got in there by science. We don't look at the stars the same today as an ancient Roman, because of science.
> 
> You cannot perceive something correctly if you don't understand it. There may be an automatic "fight or flight" response form something you don't comprehend, but that's a hard wire reaction.
> 
> ...


I see what you mean but how do we know what we know to be correct? That science didn't just absorb into our brains. We had to learn it, which uses the 5 senses which leads to perception. It really is something we take for granted.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

Heh, well for science, one must go to school, and absorb the knowledge. Not all are up to the task, for a variety of reasons. Not all are interested. It's a personal choice, but then again, it's a personal life. 

What you make of life is up to you, no one else. There are ways to split that hair, but it is basically sound and true.

In the end, we have to be able to trust science to be doing the best it can, and in an open and honest forum.

P.S. That is now the real damage of the Global Warming scandals. It is making lay ppl doubt all science. It's a slippery slope and those political "scientists" have done severe damage.


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 9, 2010)

I think you two are starting to debate whether there is a conscious observer in us or if its merely an illusion of our perceptions.

I'd like us to remember the story about the native shaman who noticed that the water was approaching the shore differently but couldn't see anything that would cause this shift. Scared and curious the shaman stood and watched the horizon from the shore for three days and saw nothing. On the last day he saw huge magnificent wood structures floating in the ocean, these were the ships sent over by Columbus. Why was he oblivious to the ships, why couldn't he perceive them? He couldn't have expected these things to be there, was his ego just protecting him? 

Peace


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Heh, well for science, one must go to school, and absorb the knowledge. Not all are up to the task, for a variety of reasons. Not all are interested. It's a personal choice, but then again, it's a personal life.
> 
> What you make of life is up to you, no one else. There are ways to split that hair, but it is basically sound and true.
> 
> ...


I love science! It was always my favorite subject in school. I hold a masters in chemistry as well. I find this whole topic fascinating though. How we perceive things does in fact shape our realities. 



Mr.KushMan said:


> I think you two are starting to debate whether there is a conscious observer in us or if its merely an illusion of our perceptions.
> 
> I'd like us to remember the story about the native shaman who noticed that the water was approaching the shore differently but couldn't see anything that would cause this shift. Scared and curious the shaman stood and watched the horizon from the shore for three days and saw nothing. On the last day he saw huge magnificent wood structures floating in the ocean, these were the ships sent over by Columbus. Why was he oblivious to the ships, why couldn't he perceive them? He couldn't have expected these things to be there, was his ego just protecting him?
> 
> Peace


Very good anecdote. I think this is very good story to illustrate how perception and understanding shape reality.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

We're really getting into Philosophy 101.


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

"To understand reality is not the same as to know about outward events. It is to perceive the essential nature of things. The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential. But on the other hand, knowledge of an apparently trivial detail quite often makes it possible to see into the depth of things. And so the wise man will seek to acquire the best possible knowledge about events, but always without becoming dependent upon this knowledge. To recognize the significant in the factual is wisdom." - Dietrich Bonhoeffer​


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

eza82 said:


> a "MAN" - .....


Well, if he was alone in a box his whole life, he might actually be "THE" man in his own little reality. 

I'll let you guys fight that out


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

.... no need to fight . lol


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

I'm not finding anything to back up this story.
Citation please?



Mr.KushMan said:


> I'd like us to remember the story about the native shaman who noticed that the water was approaching the shore differently but couldn't see anything that would cause this shift. Scared and curious the shaman stood and watched the horizon from the shore for three days and saw nothing. On the last day he saw huge magnificent wood structures floating in the ocean, these were the ships sent over by Columbus. Why was he oblivious to the ships, why couldn't he perceive them? He couldn't have expected these things to be there, was his ego just protecting him?
> 
> Peace


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> We're really getting into Philosophy 101.


I thought it might be "Philosophy LOL"


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

morgentaler said:


> I thought it might be "Philosophy LOL"


That too. Whatever works for ya.


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 9, 2010)

@ Morgantaler, it is very thoroughly explained in What the bleep do we know?. I don't know what it is called, or who wrote or interpreted it, but its in there.

Peace


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

Mr.KushMan said:


> @ Morgantaler, it is very thoroughly explained in What the bleep do we know?. I don't know what it is called, or who wrote or interpreted it, but its in there.
> 
> Peace


lmfao!!!!!

Sorry, I'm just really stoned.


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 9, 2010)

Huh???....

Peace


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## CrackerJax (Jan 9, 2010)

A few weeks into my first semester of P101, my professor had us stare at a tree outside and commented for about 5 minutes how we can't really perceive the tree, and what makes it a tree anyways? You probably know the drill, but at the end of his circular dance of a tree, he asked if we could come up with any other perceptions which may not be what they seem.

I shot my arm up, and said, "this class is 90 minutes long, but it seems like 4 hours". He just stared at me with a blank expression. 

It was a fun class though, and it does teach you to think outside the box.


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

Mr.KushMan said:


> Huh???....
> 
> Peace


@ What the bleep do we know. I thought it was funny.................


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## doc111 (Jan 9, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> A few weeks into my first semester of P101, my professor had us stare at a tree outside and commented for about 5 minutes how we can't really perceive the tree, and what makes it a tree anyways? You probably know the drill, but at the end of his circular dance of a tree, he asked if we could come up with any other perceptions which may not be what they seem.
> 
> I shot my arm up, and said, "this class is 90 minutes long, but it seems like 4 hours". He just stared at me with a blank expression.
> 
> It was a fun class though, and it does teach you to think outside the box.


Nice!!!!


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## morgentaler (Jan 9, 2010)

Mr.KushMan said:


> @ Morgantaler, it is very thoroughly explained in What the bleep do we know?. I don't know what it is called, or who wrote or interpreted it, but its in there.
> 
> Peace


Ah, I'll download that and take a look. Only saw a few minutes of it once.


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 9, 2010)

It gets pretty outrageous and boring about 2/3 way through then kind of picks up again. Like it gets bad....

Peace


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## eza82 (Jan 9, 2010)

Im not crazy about reality, but it is still the only good place to get a descent meal -Groucho Marx


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

eza82 said:


> Im not crazy about reality, but it is still the only good place to get a descent meal -Groucho Marx


lol! That's a good one! I know I'm not crazy about reality some mornings (Not a morning person).


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

Weee ... I like it all! I love waking up early. I love that first bake with my first coffee. I love watching the sun come up each morning ... brand new day! Another roll around on the big ball.  Full of possibilities!


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Weee ... I like it all! I love waking up early. I love that first bake with my first coffee. I love watching the sun come up each morning ... brand new day! Another roll around on the big ball.  Full of possibilities!


I like morning o.k. usually. I have some pretty serious chronic pain issues so I wake up to that a lot.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

Well, that's makes all the difference.  

I've always been very healthy, (knock knock) ... I hardly ever get a cold or really anything at all. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a doctor. I hope to keep it that way.

That's my perception and I'm sticking to it ...


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Well, that's makes all the difference.
> 
> I've always been very healthy, (knock knock) ... I hardly ever get a cold or really anything at all. I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a doctor. I hope to keep it that way.
> 
> That's my perception and I'm sticking to it ...


I was the picture of health until I got injured. I'm still pretty healthy otherwise but pain takes a hefty psychological toll. 

Never take your good health for granted. It usually doesn't last forever.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

Hey, I knocked twice !! 

Yes indeed. Now actually I did injure myself a few years back. Crushed the rotator cup of my shoulder. I went to the emergency room right away, and they said I needed an operation. I said, well, let's see. Never went back, and I'm back to normal. I started my own workout gradually building it back. Those particular operations have dicey results..... as always, I believe in myself. I got her done 

Although technically I wasn't sick, my dog just tried to kill me that's all (football tag)


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Hey, I knocked twice !!
> 
> Yes indeed. Now actually I did injure myself a few years back. Crushed the rotator cup of my shoulder. I went to the emergency room right away, and they said I needed an operation. I said, well, let's see. Never went back, and I'm back to normal. I started my own workout gradually building it back. Those particular operations have dicey results..... as always, I believe in myself. I got her done
> 
> Although technically I wasn't sick, my dog just tried to kill me that's all (football tag)


Good for you. I put off surgery for over 2 years. I didn't want surgery, no way no how! Things just kept getting worse. I couldn't work at all. I got into the proverbial corner. My family was suffering. I had no choice. I'm glad I did it now because I'm much, much better than I was before the surgery. Pain is still everpresent but not nearly as severe. And I tried everything! Alternative treatments, didn't work. Chiropractor, didn't work. Physical therapy, didn't work (although it helped after the surgery). This >helps a lot!


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

Oh that always helps!!!


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## eza82 (Jan 10, 2010)

If this is a pissing consest can I play ?? I have 2 crush vetrabre ( L1, T3 )

LOL


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

eza82 said:


> If this is a pissing consest can I play ?? I have 2 crush vetrabre ( L1, T3 )
> 
> LOL


L2 and L3 crushed, L5 S1 disc ruptured.


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## eza82 (Jan 10, 2010)

... someone who knows   !!!! 
:dose a little dance:
I don't meet to many with sympathetic back issues , though with your ruptures I can only empathise. But Im sure you are aware that back pain is debilitating regardless.. 
because when you argue with our reality, you lose - but only 100% of the time.
ez


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 10, 2010)

Is pain real, or just a perception?
 
Yikes!

Shut Up And Vote


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 10, 2010)

Is pain real or just a perception?

Is reality just a perception?


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## eza82 (Jan 10, 2010)

both..... imfoa


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

eza82 said:


> ... someone who knows   !!!!
> :dose a little dance:
> I don't meet to many with sympathetic back issues , though with your ruptures I can only empathise. But Im sure you are aware that back pain is debilitating regardless..
> because when you argue with our reality, you lose - but only 100% of the time.
> ez


I most definitely wish you the best with your injuries. Back pain is debilitating alright. The center of gravity: no way to get comfortable, sleepless nights, opioid painkillers, doctors, procedures, $$$$$$$. It sucks don't it? 



Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Is pain real, or just a perception?


Pain is very real to the person who is dealing with it.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 10, 2010)

If pain (Nociception) exists only as electrical signals within a nervous system and is considered by all as real, 

does it follow that other mystical perceptions that exist only as mystical electrical signals within a nervous system compose reality?

Yikes!

Shut Up And Vote


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## eza82 (Jan 10, 2010)

compose what reality ?


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

eza82 said:


> compose what reality ?


Yours, mine, ours................


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## eza82 (Jan 10, 2010)

or is it understanding reality ? And there perception of it ?


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

eza82 said:


> or is it understanding reality ? And there perception of it ?


Is reality really real? Is this conversation even happening?


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 10, 2010)

We believe we do not need to understand to perceive.

Yikes!

Shut Up And Vote


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## doc111 (Jan 10, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> We believe we do not need to understand to perceive.


Mouthbreathers abound.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

The ppl holding us all back....


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## eza82 (Jan 10, 2010)

Understanding the perseption of ones individual reality not your own, Seems to be where we agree to disagree.


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## morgentaler (Jan 10, 2010)

[youtube]ujUQn0HhGEk[/youtube]


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

Religion has nothing to do with individuality. 

It's a cult mentality.


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## eza82 (Jan 10, 2010)

But some live that reality.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

We're all well aware. 

We're aware of the damage it causes society too.


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## Dfunk (Jan 10, 2010)

If anyone has seen The Matrix here which I'm sure many have then the scene where Neo is first introduced to what the matrix is would be a good reference to this thread. Morpheus says to Neo - "What is real?...define real" . Defining what reality is can be daunting because when you get to the core of it "real or reality" is merely a made up word to best describe our living experience on planet earth. In retrospect I would come to the conclusion that perception & reality are one & the same when you consider that the idea of reality itself was made up by someone's perception.


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## CrackerJax (Jan 10, 2010)

We can parse this all day long, and it's true that one can create whatever reality they wish to.

But we are a herd species (moo), and if you want to splinter off from the main herd, and go ur own way, U can. 

But there be wolves about ... expect to be thinned out at some point. Those who have the largest cohesive and integrated herd survive the long drive.

It's about recognizing which herd to be in, and adapting urself to those parameters. 

Choose wisely .... some don't.


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## doc111 (Jan 11, 2010)

Now that I have your attention...............


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## CrackerJax (Jan 11, 2010)

Actually ppl will look at anything...


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## Mr.KushMan (Jan 11, 2010)

I know theres a joke there somewhere... 

Peace


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## CrackerJax (Jan 11, 2010)

Wait for it.......


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## doc111 (Jan 12, 2010)

CrackerJax said:


> Actually ppl will look at anything...


So true but I'd rather look at something like this................


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 13, 2010)

[youtube]gqxozfaNqaA[/youtube]

Yikes!

Shut Up And Vote


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## doc111 (Jan 13, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> [youtube]gqxozfaNqaA[/youtube]


Not sure................


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 13, 2010)

If you like Lois in leather, check out the Family Guy porn ads on pornhub.

Yikes!

Shut Up And Vote


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## doc111 (Jan 13, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> If you like Lois in leather, check out the Family Guy porn ads on pornhub.


 I don't surf porn. It's a good way to get viruses and other forms of nefarious code.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 13, 2010)

IT's safe to look at the ads through a window.

Yikes!

Shut Up And Vote


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## doc111 (Jan 13, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> IT's safe to look at the ads through a window.


I'm not sure what you mean. (I'm not very computer literate)


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## CrackerJax (Jan 13, 2010)

Well, she's not literate, so you are still OK Doc.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 21, 2010)

no perception
no reality

Shut Up And Vote


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## mr.red (Jan 21, 2010)

perception does not equal reality.

perception cannot be trusted.


therefore you cannot base your reality on it, as it is unreliable.

the only think that proves our existence at all is our thoughts.

however even though your thoughts can't be trusted either.

the very fact that you think proves you are there.

don't trust anything else.

as descartes said "cogito ergo sum"


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 21, 2010)

Reality is perception *&#8800;* "perception does not equal reality"


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## doc111 (Jan 21, 2010)

mr.red said:


> perception does not equal reality.
> 
> perception cannot be trusted.
> 
> ...


Our perception is all we have to go on as far as the outside world is concerned. Your thoughts can't be trusted any more than perception.


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 21, 2010)

doc111 said:


> Your thoughts can't be trusted any more than perception.


Shut Up And Vote


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## CrackerJax (Jan 21, 2010)

Your thoughts are distilled from perception, which is distilled from reality. They are connected, but cannot be interchanged.


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## mr.red (Jan 21, 2010)

i never said your thoughts can be trusted

but even if you are deceived in all of your perception and thought processes 

you still think, that cannot be denied

therefore thinking is all you have

since you shall never be able to truly trust your perception an sometimes even your thoughts

how can you base "reality" off of such a thing?

small example

I was picking up my cousin from the airport last week

thought I saw her when it turns out it wasn't her

my perception was incorrect

when for a moment i was certain I was correct in my judgement

While I perceive the world

I would never base "reality" off of it

just as I would be hesitant to base it off of my thoughts, as I know how crazy they are

therefore just like descartes I can only base my "reality" on the very fact that I think

I think, therefore I am

simple really

lol


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## Woodstock.Hippie (Jan 21, 2010)

You got IT good, red man.


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## sarah22 (Feb 16, 2010)

Woomeister said:


> Perception is the interpratation of what we take in through our senses. That interpretation is unique to each and every person. I may perceive something totally differently to you, I, however cannot speak of your perception of something with any degree of accuracy as I am not you.


excellent post.


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## sarah22 (Feb 16, 2010)

Woodstock.Hippie said:


> Is pain real or just a perception?
> 
> Is reality just a perception?


i saw someone explain in a documentary once that there is no such thing as pain...just intense physical sensation. and sometimes i feel that it can make sense. that the feeling is just so overwhelming to our senses, that our brain just automatically labels it as painful..because it cant process all the sensations happening any other way...


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## hempcurescancer (Mar 23, 2010)

sarah22 said:


> i saw someone explain in a documentary once that there is no such thing as pain...just intense physical sensation. and sometimes i feel that it can make sense. that the feeling is just so overwhelming to our senses, that our brain just automatically labels it as painful..because it cant process all the sensations happening any other way...


damn sarah....i've never thought of it like that before, kind of like if you burn yourself, its an overwhelming feeling because the temp is so high, our brain could just label it as pain because we cant yet fathom the sensation..


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## doc111 (Mar 24, 2010)

hempcurescancer said:


> damn sarah....i've never thought of it like that before, kind of like if you burn yourself, its an overwhelming feeling because the temp is so high, our brain could just label it as pain because we cant yet fathom the sensation..


Pain is necessary since it prevents you from keeping your hand on a hot stove. It's a necessary survival mechanism. There are people who don't feel pain at all and they have to be really careful because it's really hard for them to tell if they've been injured. Here is a little article I found about this condition:



Congenital insensitivity to pain (CIPA), also known as congenital analgia is a very rare condition and the few people who have this condition cannot feel any sort of pain. Sounds 









good, right? Wrong. What many people don't realize is that this can be extremely dangerous.

This disorder is caused when a the nerves that sense pain does not connect with the part of the brain the recognizes pain. The reasons why this happens or what causes this to happen are unknown. Other sensory areas of people with CIPA are completely normal. As mentioned before, this is disease is incredibly rare and only 35 United States citizens have CIPA. Unfortunately, many people with CIPA don't live to see the age of 25. The rarity of this disease and the very low survival rate of it makes it difficult to study.

Not being able to feel pain is incredibly dangerous, especially for children. You need pain to tell you what you should and shouldn't do. You need pain to tell you when to move away from something because it is causing you harm. Most people try to avoid causing pain to themselves, but it is because they have felt pain that they are able to avoid those things that initially caused the pain. 

A condition that is found in people with CIPA is Anhidrosis, which is the inability to sweat. This is also not a good thing. People with CIPA and Anhidrosis are unable to feel extreme temperature, this and not being able to sweat means that their body cannot regulate its temperature.

Children born with this need to be watched even more than normal children. They have to be taken to the doctor to make sure that they are okay and not suffering from anything that they are unaware of. They constantly have to be inspected to make sure that nothing is bleeding or otherwise wrong.

According to Pravda.com, a little girl suffering from CIPA put her hand on a hot oven and burnt her skin when she was three years old. She did not realize that anything was wrong and when her parents found her smiling with blood all over the kitchen, they were shocked. This poor girl also shredded her own lips when she began teething.


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## swishatwista (Mar 24, 2010)

"Life is what you make it", light weight and eligant, straight forest gump, but reading from the back of the book. PUSH IT


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## swishatwista (Mar 24, 2010)

O exactly man, the brain sees pain as a flash or red flag, but the underlining fact and/or transition is key to grips on reality. And to the one ^, exactly your nerves are extremely key in perception, but its that conception that changes perception. I'm sure ppl around here are familar with the Allegory of The Cave.


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