# To Turn or Not 2 turn, when and how ? Strain/stretch advanced perverted training



## Bill Wilson (Nov 11, 2011)

All right a vert forum. I only do vert, I find it easier, more productive and easier to maintain. I am almost done with my second grow with 15 different strains from the upmost stretch of tangerine haze to the squatty Burmese. 

I did not turn this grow and I grew into a plastic trellis to keep away from bulb. I used bamboo stakes. green wire to train the smaller indicas. I have noticed there is a divide on whether to turn or not to turn. I am going to surround the light with a 4 foot cylinder fence or surround the plants in fence and turn them. 

What do you guys do? I use 15 gallon airpots so Its not hard to turn. I heard of a dj using old turntables hooked up to a timer..ha ha.


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## Beansfranklin (Nov 13, 2011)

Put a lazy susan under every pot. you can diy pretty easily.


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## Dont Fear The Reefer (Nov 14, 2011)

How about some pics... I assume you are usinf Fluoro. strips?


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## Beansly (Nov 14, 2011)

I've heard that turning your plants reduces the yeild.


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## smokinrav (Nov 14, 2011)

Turning your plants reduces yield? I can't think of a single reason why that would happen. Sounds like a myth to me.


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## Becorath (Nov 17, 2011)

The only thing I can think of where this would be true is if the plant puts more energy into moving leaves than into producing buds. But I would think the increased light to all bud sites would offset that by more yield. 

My .02


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## gh0staaa (Nov 17, 2011)

If you turn your plant, she is going to exert energy redirecting her shoots to the newly placed light source, which could potentially take energy away from producing buds...

If you do not turn your plant, you can train most shoots to the "front", either by using some stakes, a screen, or something similar. You can see my journal in the vert section for an example of the screen option.

Some people who run vertical bulbs and trees in the tic tac toe type configuration do sometimes alternate lights at the beginning of cycles (so the light is not too intense on the young-ins) or if heat becomes an issue.. which could be akin to turning your plant, and they are able to pull massive yields.

It seems like a lot of hassle turning all of your plants all the time, but if you are up for it, you should give it a try both ways and report back!

Either way, good luck!
G


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## Beansfranklin (Nov 19, 2011)

i turn mine 1/8 everyday to give my buds even light, but thats because i have cfls going down the sides, my next grow i'll try cutting the smaller stems for clones and only keep the stems that are in front of the lights.
i don't want to hijack the thread but i'll just post a couple pics to show u what i mean.


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## smokinrav (Nov 20, 2011)

gh0staaa said:


> If you turn your plant, she is going to exert energy redirecting her shoots to the newly placed light source, which could potentially take energy away from producing buds...
> 
> If you do not turn your plant, you can train most shoots to the "front", either by using some stakes, a screen, or something similar. You can see my journal in the vert section for an example of the screen option.
> 
> ...


That makes no sense at all. Pure speculation.


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## gh0staaa (Nov 20, 2011)

smokinrav said:


> That makes no sense at all. Pure speculation.


Which part doesn't make any sense?


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## dtp5150 (Nov 20, 2011)

i would be completely surprised and speechless if it was ~scientifically~ proven that turning ur plants reduces yield.


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## matthebrute (Nov 20, 2011)

never turned my plants but i would assume its the same concept as a light mover?


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## SirLancelot (Nov 20, 2011)

I rotate mine every watering/fed. I dunno if it helps but I figure the parts away from the light are getting like 3000lumens less so it wouldn't hurt to let them get some.

Also i don't know but i was under the impression that the buds don't need the light it's the leaves. they are the energy factory the buds are just the product. maybe someone can clarify that one.


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## dtp5150 (Nov 20, 2011)

im pretty sure photosynthesis to some degree happens on anything thats green.....and in particular leaves....sugar leaf or fan leaf


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## Beansly (Nov 20, 2011)

I don't think it literally _hurts _the plant to turn it. Just that it seems like th plant is wasting time adjusting to the new light angle instead of concentrating on the ones that are already accustomed. Like you have these big bud factories running on full speed facing the light, then sudden you turn the 90 or 180 degrees out of the light. It sounds like it might be plausible. 
I don't just pull the info out of my ass, I got it from some other vert growers.
Totally unscientific but possible to me. I'd have to do some experimenting before I believe anything though.


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## ÒÒlegilizeitÒÒ (Nov 20, 2011)

gh0staaa said:


> If you turn your plant, she is going to exert energy redirecting her shoots to the newly placed light source, which could potentially take energy away from producing buds...
> 
> If you do not turn your plant, you can train most shoots to the "front", either by using some stakes, a screen, or something similar. You can see my journal in the vert section for an example of the screen option.
> 
> ...


 thats true but your over estimating the energy to move leafs. plants outdoors have to turn there leafs all day everyday. and lst has to turn entire branches and iv seen some beastly lsts


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## gh0staaa (Nov 20, 2011)

&#1174;&#1175;legilizeit&#1175;&#1174;;6658237 said:


> thats true but your over estimating the energy to move leafs. plants outdoors have to turn there leafs all day everyday. and lst has to turn entire branches and iv seen some beastly lsts


That may be so - I do go on to say that people do things similar to rotating, like flip flopping lights in big rooms, and they do very well. I've seen spinning tables that spin the plants constantly around a vertical bulb that the manufacturers claim is the holy grail... I just think manually spinning a bunch of plants will be a lot of extra work while the results (without actually adding extra lights) could be negligible. I may be wrong - it may be much like a light mover would increase your yield some... depending on your room, though, it could be a lot of work.

I would love to see a side by side done to see what the difference would be, if any.
G


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## Thedillestpickle (Nov 23, 2011)

Beansfranklin said:


> Put a lazy susan under every pot. you can diy pretty easily.


thanks for the idea... a lazy susan is exactly what I need, I want to have my plants do one full rotation over the 12 hour light period. typed DIY motorized lazy susan into google and got some good inspiration, now I just need to hit up the hobby store and a get myself some lazy susans
Im going to go with my gut feeling on this and hope the rotating helps the plants even though there is some serious speculation happening here. 

do you think IF there is a negative aspect to spinning your plants,THAN it will be the same whether you do your spin daily at 1/2 turn, 1/4 turn, or 1/8? and will it also have the same negative effect if you have a motorized lazy susan doing a 360 over 12 hours?


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## thegersman (Nov 23, 2011)

Turn your girls...they need a little motion with some lotion...Baked !


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## jigfresh (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm with Beansly. No proof either way. And about plants moving for the sun... the sun going from east to west is totally not the same as a light source spinning around your plant. If you were working a solar panel to be in the sun it would have to go from what 60 degrees off horizontal in the morning to 60 degrees the other way, so maybe 120 degrees of motion on a single axis, while spinning the plant (in a vertical setup) would require 360 degrees of motion.

Sorry I was only thinking about vertical, becuase that's what I do. If you spun your plants in a regular light above setup, then it would be much like the sun moving over them.


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## leroy79 (Nov 26, 2011)

I have 2 x 600watt hps for flowering. I have rotated using a lazy susan and I still do keep lazy susans handy for easy watering since we can't all be full-auto, but I try to get the plant back to the original position because I have found yields to be quite smaller rotating the plant. I don't really know why, but many of you are talking about 'natural' environmental factors and a plant spinning like a top is not one of them, sorry. Not trying to step on any toes, I am just giving some healthy feedback on some results from my grows. The moving light on the rails is what increases yields or growing outdoors on the equator works I've heard.


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## SirLancelot (Nov 27, 2011)

leroy79 said:


> I don't really know why, but many of you are talking about 'natural' environmental factors and a plant spinning like a top is not one of them, sorry. Not trying to step on any toes, I am just giving some healthy feedback on some results from my grows. The moving light on the rails is what increases yields or growing outdoors on the equator works I've heard.


I think what they mean by natural occurances would be the sun rising and setting. I know that in my vegi garden out back some of my plants rotate throughout the day to follow the sun. Have you ever been by a sunflower field, the heads turn the entire day and face the sun untill it goes down (unless you have massive heads that just hang their like 'tards) I'd agree that turning your plant may not be the best method to expose the entire plant to sunlight and movers would be the way to go. but turning a plant a 1/4 a day or every few days doesn't exert enough energy to produce less buds. I bet though if there was a side by side comparison of a plant not turned and a plant turned throughout the grow their wouldn't be much difference especially if you did it say on 5 grows im willing to bet the difference would be so minut you wouldn't be able to notice. btw i just realized im talking about your light horozontilly above your plant not verticaly. 

Also i do want to add though sometimes late into flowering I don't spin because thats when you have chances of branches catching on anything and breaking plus when Im lucky i get some fat colas that need to be tied up to the cieling to hold them up, so not much spinnin after that.


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## Bill Wilson (Dec 7, 2011)

I have noticed if you dont turn your bud turns like fingerlings stretching sideways. This is a concern for bag appeal. I have turned once and grown into a trellis once. I turned nightly to stop stretch which I think hurt my yield and took too much time. The time I didn.t turn out y heavily but had a toasted side. 

I will try turning once weekly until the end of stretch and then leave em. I sure do love vert. I went from a .40g/w to and mean even 1.00, but lots changed other than the turning. I have thought about a solid concave screen enveloping the light on each plant individually wrapping the 360 degrees of the light. That way you can move each supported plant individually and train it for maximum coverage. Vetical individual concave v scrog. 

What do you think?


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## jigfresh (Dec 11, 2011)

You mean kinda like this? I think vert scrogs are the way to go.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 13, 2011)

Just wait till you guys see what Ive rigged up, Its a lazy susan I built from a cabinet caster with a low torque 12V motor geared down and with a rubber wheel that cranks the lazy susan around at about 3 rev per minute.... holy damn this thing is awesome I can stand on it and it keeps chugging. I got 5 more in the works, can whip em together in about 2 hours each, total cost is about 20$ each. Now Im thinking I can lean these things on a 20-25 degree angle with the plants on them, and hopefully the constant changing sideways gravity will make them want to bush out and not stretch(I have 10 sativa seedlings right now). I have no research to show that theory would do anything good... probably isnt too many people out there that have tried it... you can all look forward to seeing how such a technique works out as Ill be doing a side by side with most at 20 degrees off 90 and one control straight up and down. Im not even going to do a control of one not spinning, because Im pretty confident this is going to do wonderfull things. Also if you consider with leaning the plants 20 degrees you can get the top cola alot closer to the vert light. 
Ill have at least a 400w MH and a 600w HPS and as many plants as are female around them in a 4x6x7. If I can control temps with both those lights running and feel i have good temperature control I will put in a second 600w HPS for flowering... so a ton of light for 4 or 6 plants.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 13, 2011)

guess i should figure out how to put pictures up


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## Bill Wilson (Dec 15, 2011)

I like the vert scorg pics. I am using a double sided concave fencing to only turn it 180 degrees once a week. Imagine a fish barbecue that folds into itself, but shaped concave on both sides like this. >< so I imagine to use this individually for structure and training. This way the maximum area for surface is achieved and the inner cage keeps the four main colas spread and contained as to minimize stretch. it would look more like this )(


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 16, 2011)

Now I was visualizing it and the spinning idea seems like it would be a major pain in the ass if your plants got very big or decided to bush out at all. I think it would only be manageable if I were not going to top and just wanted one beefy main cola. haha rotiserrie bud. I will definately try it with 1 or 2 just to feed my curiosity, and vert scrog the others around the light, at least I know thats a proven method, I wont be turning but maybe some backlighting? 4 colas per plant good for a scrog? 


We need to get more people working on vert, not too much happening in this subforum.


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## Thedillestpickle (Dec 21, 2011)

...my idea isnt taking off quite like I thought it would, no one finds this one interesting at all? well I tried putting one of my vegging plants on the platform and running it but when I went back upstairs I could hear the motor churning, Its not gunna be used unless i can find a way to lower the noise, I really see this as a great option for someone wanting to grow a low number of plants and have the option of getting sativas with massive colas, could do a topping for 4 colas and have them get ALOT of light doing this, its a shame I cant seem to make it run quieter, hard to imagine it could be louder than my 750cfm exhaust fan. Does anyone know about light movers or more specifically if there are any that are very quiet. so I cant hear it through the floor. I am thinking of mimicing this setup, one of the best vert grows ive seen so far, and interesting choice of nutrients https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=221265&page=10


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## sorethumb (May 6, 2012)

i had to go vertical with my little 2ft t5 when my plant got to big for its foot print.slightly angled down at it and i just tuned it once a day plant was about 6ft btw and i never harvested it was male lmao


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## Saldaw (May 8, 2012)

Thedillestpickle said:


> thanks for the idea... a lazy susan is exactly what I need, I want to have my plants do one full rotation over the 12 hour light period. typed DIY motorized lazy susan into google and got some good inspiration, now I just need to hit up the hobby store and a get myself some lazy susans
> Im going to go with my gut feeling on this and hope the rotating helps the plants even though there is some serious speculation happening here.
> 
> do you think IF there is a negative aspect to spinning your plants,THAN it will be the same whether you do your spin daily at 1/2 turn, 1/4 turn, or 1/8? and will it also have the same negative effect if you have a motorized lazy susan doing a 360 over 12 hours?


the sun moves in the sky naturally so i in nature the sun moves 180 degrees so 180 degree turn per day?


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## Bob Smith (May 9, 2012)

Don't turn your plants, man.

Rotation is futile.

A lot of people have trouble grasping the difference between nature and a grow room................there's a reason indoor costs more than outdoor (because indoors we can make growing conditions ideal). Since it happens in nature, would we be all better served to let critters into our rooms to nibble on our plants? Hit them with a garden hose at full blast to simulate a thunderstorm?

Why would you waste your plant's energy on reorientating (is that a word?) itself to the light? Trim off the larf and keep just great colas.............don't turn your plant and get a whole plant full of popcorn.

To Jig's point, get yourself a vert scrog and call it a fucking day...............


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## SirLancelot (May 9, 2012)

Plants are always in motion, them shifting towards the light doesn't "waste" energy they are healthy and rotating themselves to take in the light more efficiently.


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## Bob Smith (May 9, 2012)

Take away their need to rotate and now you've really got something


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## Stonefree69 (May 11, 2012)

Plants don't "turn" in nature, at least not the north side (in northern hemisphere)! That side of the plant is also just
about as good harvested. With the proper lighting indoors (50-100 watts/sf) the same should apply.

Now having the light reflect back around the perimeter in a vertical grow is a different story along w/a NST cage for
training. I like to give the plants ideal conditions and just LEAVE THEM ALONE. Has worked superb for me since
the 70's!


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## SirLancelot (May 12, 2012)

Stonefree69 said:


> Plants don't "turn" in nature, at least not the north side (in northern hemisphere)!


??????????? they may not "turn" but they do grow towards the light. If you've ever lived in Kansas you'd know that sunflowers for one, rotate the entire day following the sun.

Phototropism is what it's called I believe.

http://www.biologie.uni-hamburg.de/b-online/e32/32b.htm


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