# Effect of Defoliation on Yield - Skywalker OG indoor scrog



## OscarLaGrouch (May 4, 2014)

*Summary*
Preliminary research of the internet on the effect of defoliation on _Cannabis Sativa_ yields results in little definitive information. The only way to determine if defoliation has a positive, negative or neutral effect on yield is to do a side-by-side comparison. This experiment will do just that. Controlling for all other variables, the only experimental variable will be the methodical removal of fan leaves that effectively shade bud sites. The goal is to determine if allowing artificial light to reach these sites provides the extra energy to increase flower size. Alternatively, it may be determined that removal of leaves has a hormonal effect on plants that may or may not be deleterious to increased yields.

*Background*
Researcher has a B.S., in Botany from a University of California and has been growing for five years continuously in an indoor environment.

*Environment*
Sealed-air room is maintained at 79-83 degrees until week seven of flower where it will be dropped to 75 degrees. Reservoir is maintained at 63%F. Humidity ranges from 55-68% RH. Humidity will be dropped in week 7 to under 55% RH Auto-irrigation with drain-to-waste. Four Ushio HPS bulbs are 24" from the canopy. Plants are topped and supercropped into a scrog.

*Materials*
RO water
Heavy 16 nutrients (full line)
50/50 coco/perlite
Mykos beneficials mixed into medium and added weekly by top dressing
Protekt Silica
MagiCal
Bio-Cozyme
CannaZyme
Eagle 20
Dutch Master reverse
CO2
dehumidifier
drain-to-waste auto irrigation
4 x 1KW HPS bulbs over 2 4x8' trays

*Procedure*
36 Skywalker OG clones were obtained from Progressive Options, a reputable genetics farm in Los Angeles. All plants are clones taken from the same mother. All plants have been maintained in the identical environment as a group and have been or will be treated with the same materials. All plants will be fed the same nutrient regimen and have been planted in the same medium. The experimental variable will be applied to one 4x8 table while the other table will be untouched with regard to defoliation around bud sites. Defoliation/lollipopping below the scrog has been applied to both tables. All plants were topped in early veg at the fifth internode to encourage branching for the scrog growing method. 
The experimental variable of defoliation will be applied only to fan leaves with a petiole that are directly shading at least one bud site. Defoliation will be applied beginning in the third week of flower and will continue as needed.
Weekly summaries of the experiment will be posted. Grow is expected to run up to ten weeks and will be flushed for one week at the end. Resulting flowers will be tested for potency, mold and pesticides by theWercShop.com and results posted here. 

At harvest, plants from each table will be hung to dry directly under the table they were grown on. Each table will be hand-trimmed with identical methods and maintained separately from each other. Following a cure to 55% RH, each table will be weighed and the results posted here. 

*IMPORTANT: TROLLING WILL NOT BE TOLERATED. *
All trolls will be blocked and all individuals quoting trolls into the thread will be blocked.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 4, 2014)

It should be noted that this is a legal medical grow compliant with SB 420 and Prop 215. If you have any questions about this my attorneys are Jerry Handley and Edie Lerman.


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## chuck estevez (May 4, 2014)

First off, not to sure about progressive being "reputable" But i'm subbed. This should be fun.


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## RL420 (May 4, 2014)

subbed for the ride


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## neo12345 (May 4, 2014)

Hi Oscar interesting experiment, can I ask if you have defoliated plants before?


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## m3d1c1n3man (May 4, 2014)

sounds awesome. let me get this straight, you just started this experiment? because i want to know the results.


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## UncleReemis (May 4, 2014)

Yeah, for the sake of not repeating the fate of the last thread... let's just argue in the old thread, post good shit here.

Subbed once again.


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## ProHuman (May 4, 2014)

Subbed, + 2 Likes


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## Letstrip (May 4, 2014)

Subbed up, Im keen for this one!


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> First off, not to sure about progressive being "reputable" But i'm subbed. This should be fun.


Have you somethkng to say about Progressive?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Hi Oscar interesting experiment, can I ask if you have defoliated plants before?


 Yeah i always defol but i wanna know how it affects each strain i grow.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

UncleReemis said:


> Yeah, for the sake of not repeating the fate of the last thread... let's just argue in the old thread, post good shit here.
> 
> Subbed once again.


If I was a mod I would edit this thread to include only scientific discussion.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

m3d1c1n3man said:


> sounds awesome. let me get this straight, you just started this experiment? because i want to know the results.


This is day 8! Or day one week two


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

All clones are treated for PM, mites, gnats and light issues by the end of week 2 of flower. Beyond that no pesticides. Only exceptions are reverse wk 1 and perhaps wk 3 and 5 based on need. Mighty wash and/or sulphur burners will be used if needed as a non toxic way of dealing w fungal issues due to high RH. I dont wanna smoke residues so i do t spray them on flowers.


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## chuck estevez (May 5, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Have you somethkng to say about Progressive?


other than they have a reputation for selling shit clones, Nope, I don't have "somethkng" to say/


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## neo12345 (May 5, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Yeah i always defol but i wanna know how it affects each strain i grow.


So have you used this technique on Skywalker OG before? Are they 100% Sativa?

Can I ask what stage of the experiment you are at now, as you speak in past tense about some things? Do you have any pics?

As for the actual defoliation itself, am I right in thinking that you only defoliate from week 3 of flower? You didn't defoliate during veg? What percentage of leaves would you say you are taking in that first defoliation from the canopy, and then is it just a random removal from then onward?


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## Schwagstock (May 5, 2014)

scribing to this, very interested to see what the final outcome is. Do you have a personal opinion as to if you think it helps or not?


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## leyus (May 5, 2014)

Subbed, I love defoliation, previous indoor I defoliated all plants, this indoor just White Russian next grow I will do that to all plants again most likely. I would never do it outdoor since wind and animals and other things do it for me but indoor its awesome.


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## RedCarpetMatches (May 5, 2014)

I tried defol several times. It was more like 'selective pruning'. I got very nice results. The one time I tried complete defoliation, I ended up with pussy willows...very dense pussy willows.


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## Cascadian (May 5, 2014)

Subbed up, glad someone else is going to follow through with the experiment. I did a defoliation experiment recently with just one plant (only for my own curiosity). When I was reading up on it there was mention that starting defoliating in veg is a good idea to get the plant used to losing leaves and not stressing as much (reduce hermies). Just thought I would mention it, Thanks for running the experiment.


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## InvaderMark (May 5, 2014)

Chiming in to say I'm on board. Love science. Love experiments. And that Bill Nye guy. Lets see how this goes. 

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Rollitup mobile app


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> So have you used this technique on Skywalker OG before? Are they 100% Sativa?
> 
> Can I ask what stage of the experiment you are at now, as you speak in past tense about some things? Do you have any pics?
> 
> As for the actual defoliation itself, am I right in thinking that you only defoliate from week 3 of flower? You didn't defoliate during veg? What percentage of leaves would you say you are taking in that first defoliation from the canopy, and then is it just a random removal from then onward?


*No i have not done a formal experiment on Skywalker or any other strain. I just like to pull leaves and perform canopy maintenance. I wanted to learn something. sounds Sativa to me. from pogenetics: 
Pedigree: OG Kush

Genetics: OG

Feeding Level: Moderate-High Feeder

Flowering Time: 9-10 weeeks

Growth Structure: Lanky; Stretchy; Tall.
Tips: Super-cropping, topping recommended. 

~~~~~~~~~~~~
the four week veg stage is completed. 
Flower Week 2 Day 2. 
Of course I defoliate in veg. I prune. I lollipop to the scrog and let only the branches that will make it to the scrog last. I continually evaluate and prune as needed. I am starting defol in week three because 1) i want the plants to stretch 2) there are no budsites being shaded as yet. beginning week 3 to end I will remove fan leaves. I will completely defol in week 9 or ten to make drying and trimming easier. random removal based solely on the discretion of the following criterion: is this large fan leaf shading one or more bud site. yes? prune/clip/defol. no? leave it on. if I see crowding or lack of air and light flow I may remove those leaves as well. I would not call it a percentage because I would have to count all the leaves on the plants to be accurate and.... not doing that! that's part of the reason I am defolating: because I think the plants have too many leaves as it is. my hypothesis is based in the idea that they produce extra leaves due to the intense nute regimen we feed them. they really don't need all of those leaves. I believe that. 
i can count the number of leaves I remove every day.



Schwagstock said:



scribing to this, very interested to see what the final outcome is. Do you have a personal opinion as to if you think it helps or not?

Click to expand...

 , 
Personally, my training and intuition tells me it will help yield. The high value target is the bud, not the leaf. 
*

*
*


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

leyus said:


> Subbed, I love defoliation, previous indoor I defoliated all plants, this indoor just White Russian next grow I will do that to all plants again most likely. I would never do it outdoor since wind and animals and other things do it for me but indoor its awesome.


right! people treat their plants like spoiled babies, I do too. however, nature intended for the plants to shed leaves that aren't carrying their weight, like the ones getting no light. nature intended shedding due to animal contact and wind. the plant has this under control. COMPLETE defoliation that in no way mimics nature is a totally different technique. I apply this during the flush phase week. nothing but sugar leaf when I chop.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

Cascadian said:


> Subbed up, glad someone else is going to follow through with the experiment. I did a defoliation experiment recently with just one plant (only for my own curiosity). When I was reading up on it there was mention that starting defoliating in veg is a good idea to get the plant used to losing leaves and not stressing as much (reduce hermies). Just thought I would mention it, Thanks for running the experiment.


thanks for mentioning it. well I have created hermies every way imaginable but I am not looking to add to the list with defoliation. one or two leaves per plant aint gonna do nuthin... (hypothetically)

(ok knock on wood and cross fingers)


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 5, 2014)

wk 2 day 2
gonna spray dutch master reverse. I apply in week one three and five to guard against herms. 
in two days I will hit them with eagle 20. should immunize them for the duration. I hope. 
plants look very vigorous and dark green. stretching nicely. I will work on getting some pics up. I just want to make sure I'm secure when I do it.


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## sikkinixx (May 6, 2014)

I'd be curious about a poll on this one. I know this is a pretty heated issue with two very different camps.

I'm excited to see some definitive results (not that it will ever change anyone's mind


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## MaineMooseRider (May 6, 2014)

Thanks for this. This is my very first medical grow, I just started week 4 of flower and my 4 x 4 tent is so full. I so want to prune leafs off them. Like everybody else I have read and read and I just don't know what to do. I have some nice buds starting and I think I could have more if I pruned some leafs but there are so many that say "No" that I haven't removed any. The tent is so full that when I move them to check levels some fall off and I see so many branch's down low that will never produce anything, but I have left them alone. So I am very interested in this. Thank You


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

sikkinixx said:


> I'd be curious about a poll on this one. I know this is a pretty heated issue with two very different camps.
> 
> I'm excited to see some definitive results (not that it will ever change anyone's mind


can we do a poll thru RIU with like voting buttons?
ok everyone. vote yes or no. will the defoliated table yield more than the undefoliated table?
I vote YES


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

MaineMooseRider said:


> Thanks for this. This is my very first medical grow, I just started week 4 of flower and my 4 x 4 tent is so full. I so want to prune leafs off them. Like everybody else I have read and read and I just don't know what to do. I have some nice buds starting and I think I could have more if I pruned some leafs but there are so many that say "No" that I haven't removed any. The tent is so full that when I move them to check levels some fall off and I see so many branch's down low that will never produce anything, but I have left them alone. So I am very interested in this. Thank You


part of the reason I am doing this is I believe getting light through the canopy to the lower branches is a necessary. otherwise you might as well cut those off. when you grow au naturel, usually the plants are spaced out a bit and light enters thru the side as the sun passes overhead, hitting the plant at different angles as the day passes. that's why ppl use light movers indoors. because I scrog, which means I use a trellis, the idea is to have all the branches receiving the same amount of light. a grower prunes everything that doesn't make it to the scrog. I was told to give the lower branches until week four. if they haven't made it to the trellis/canopy by then, they get chopped/pruned to allow the plant to send that energy to the growing tips or lateral meristems. 

if you have too many plants in too small a space, they crowd each other. this blocks air movement which means humidity builds up within the plants and you run the issue of mildew. in my humble opinion, you starve lower branches and buds of the light energy they need as well.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

FLIPPING A COIN. SOMEBODY CALL IT. WHICH TRAY WILL DEFOL? A OR B?


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## RL420 (May 6, 2014)

A


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

*A IS ON THE RIGHT HAND SIDE*


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

RL420 said:


> A


A will be the tray to defoliate. For those of you who only want to come back for the results, I suggest you check this thread in July.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

TABLE A


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

TABLE B


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## Growan (May 6, 2014)

July? Ffs. It's like HBO...


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

Growan said:


> July? Ffs. It's like HBO...


skywalker is a 9-10 week show on this channel. plus I take two weeks to dry and then I'm gonna cure to uniform 55% to make it fair. can't have wet weed skewing my results....


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## Growan (May 6, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> skywalker is a 9-10 week show on this channel. plus I take two weeks to dry and then I'm gonna cure to uniform 55% to make it fair. can't have wet weed skewing my results....


Thorough. I approve.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

*undercanopy pruning pics*
before and after, 
what was removed was any sucker branch meaning any side branch between the main stem and the halfway point of the branch, any small or weak branch. lower leaves. the final two shots are the cleaned under canopy of A and B to show that pruning is uniform in both trays.
*main vertical stem* trim all this shit  halfway point  leave all these  *tip of branch*


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## redbeard420 (May 6, 2014)

Ive been removing fan leaves here and there for the past week and a half now. But still have a shit ton of leaves. Im worried about removing too many. But also worried about airflow, mold, and light penatration. These pics from tonight after removing a few fan leaves. I may neec to remove more. I could use a lil advise.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

redbeard420 said:


> Ive been removing fan leaves here and there for the past week and a half now. But still have a shit ton of leaves. Im worried about removing too many. But also worried about airflow, mold, and light penatration. These pics from tonight after removing a few fan leaves. I may neec to remove more. I could use a lil advise. View attachment 3146595 View attachment 3146597 View attachment 3146607 View attachment 3146608 View attachment 3146611


red I can't really give you advise. if I was certain yanking leaves off your type of plant was the right thing to do, I would not hesitate.
what I would do is lay down on the floor with your head facing up and look for the dark areas of your canopy. pull one to three leaves per plant max and even it out. if I wasn't a scrogger I would rotate my plants 90degrees every few days just to expose them evenly to light. light a plant rotisserie. stay tuned for the experiment and go from there.


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## redbeard420 (May 6, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> red I can't really give you advise. if I was certain yanking leaves off your type of plant was the right thing to do, I would not hesitate.
> what I would do is lay down on the floor with your head facing up and look for the dark areas of your canopy. pull one to three leaves per plant max and even it out. if I wasn't a scrogger I would rotate my plants 90degrees every few days just to expose them evenly to light. light a plant rotisserie. stay tuned for the experiment and go from there.


My plants get a half turn every day. I also tuck leaves out of the way as to not shadow any bud below them. Ive just never grown anything this lush in the past. These girls are hardy. They are Aphrodite x skunk f1's I made last year. So basically 50% Jack Herer 25% Black Domina 25% Skunk.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

redbeard420 said:


> My plants get a half turn every day. I also tuck leaves out of the way as to not shadow any bud below them. Ive just never grown anything this lush in the past. These girls are hardy. They are Aphrodite x skunk f1's I made last year. So basically 50% Jack Herer 25% Black Domina 25% Skunk.


I would give them a quarter turn. that way you are sunning four sides of the plant equally, not just two.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 6, 2014)

redbeard420 said:


> My plants get a half turn every day. I also tuck leaves out of the way as to not shadow any bud below them. Ive just never grown anything this lush in the past. These girls are hardy. They are Aphrodite x skunk f1's I made last year. So basically 50% Jack Herer 25% Black Domina 25% Skunk.


lets move our discussion to a private message so this thread stays true to its title. cool?


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## waterdawg (May 7, 2014)

Nice Oscar!!! A person willing to possibly lose a bit to see the results! I'm glad to see this after what was one of the first sensible discussions re: defoliation I've seen on RUI a few weeks ago. Although I believe you or others will have to expand on this, one of many true defoliating techniques, to truly find the answers. Subbed for the ride, see you in a week or two lol.


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## waterdawg (May 7, 2014)

The search for answers is sometimes a long journey lol.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 7, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Nice Oscar!!! A person willing to possibly lose a bit to see the results! I'm glad to see this after what was one of the first sensible discussions re: defoliation I've seen on RUI a few weeks ago. Although I believe you or others will have to expand on this, one of many true defoliating techniques, to truly find the answers. Subbed for the ride, see you in a week or two lol.


Thx for your interest. I will post pics of flower size on both tables every sunday.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 7, 2014)

Journal
Day 11
Sprayed w reverse as preventative.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 7, 2014)

Wait, what?

There was a sensible convo abput defol on... RIU?

Where? 
I have to read this. 



waterdawg said:


> Nice Oscar!!! A person willing to possibly lose a bit to see the results! I'm glad to see this after what was one of the first sensible discussions re: defoliation I've seen on RUI a few weeks ago. Although I believe you or others will have to expand on this, one of many true defoliating techniques, to truly find the answers. Subbed for the ride, see you in a week or two lol.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 7, 2014)

*It should be noted that i had a 2.5 hr power outtage in veg. We will see of that fucks up the whole room or not. Opinion?
Happened about one wek into veg. *


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## RL420 (May 7, 2014)

lol i really doubt it


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## MaineMooseRider (May 7, 2014)

Well I started to do some pruning tonight when the lights came on. I checked my levels, added water with some nutrients and Pro-TeTk and got the pH set and did some pruning of my 2 Cluster Bombs. Tomorrow night I will prune the 2 Sugar Black Rose. 

Thanks Oscer


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## m3d1c1n3man (May 7, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> *It should be noted that i had a 2.5 hr power outtage in veg. We will see of that fucks up the whole room or not. Opinion?
> Happened about one wek into veg. *


my opinion is that it shouldn't matter being in veg. and also i believe it is the lights being ON that can potentially stress / hermie them, i don't think it matters how the lights are OFF.


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## flower pharm (May 7, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> red I can't really give you advise. if I was certain yanking leaves off your type of plant was the right thing to do, I would not hesitate.
> what I would do is lay down on the floor with your head facing up and look for the dark areas of your canopy. pull one to three leaves per plant max and even it out. if I wasn't a scrogger I would rotate my plants 90degrees every few days just to expose them evenly to light. light a plant rotisserie. stay tuned for the experiment and go from there.


 just took about 1.5lbs of leaf and small branches pyramid tutankhmon


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 7, 2014)

RL420 said:


> lol i really doubt it


someone I trust says if its a strong enough genetic, most stuff won't phase it.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 7, 2014)

m3d1c1n3man said:


> my opinion is that it shouldn't matter being in veg. and also i believe it is the lights being ON that can potentially stress / hermie them, i don't think it matters how the lights are OFF.


I agree that it shouldn't matter in veg. I read about short dark periods in flower being the real problem. I'd be more worried about a light leak than a dark 'leak'. ahah. just wanna make sure.

dark flood?


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## miccyj (May 8, 2014)

This is interesting, I've been aggressively defoliating my plants for quite some time now and I get fantastic results, but I remove leaves from the top of the plant to allow for greater light penetration, but I don't grow scrog so it is different. I'm subbed, good luck.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 8, 2014)

*DATA*
defoliation has begun. removed 43 leaves with petioles that were shading or crowding budsites. slight Mg deficiency noted. added dissolved epsom salts to ppm of 100 and diluted res to 450ppm for FRIDAY FLUSH DAY.
will spray with dissolved epsom salt foliar feed during lights out to supplement. medium may be too full of K+ which competes with Mg+. runoff ppms at 950 and pH 6.1. since that's what Ive been feeding them I wonder what they are eating if anything but they are growing robustly with dark green leaves. interveinal spaces slightly less dark than veins. OGs are notoriously Mg hungry.


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## Sparkticus (May 8, 2014)

Cool thread. Quick question (sorry if it's been covered). The results are going to be specific to Skywalker and strains with similar lineage, right? Since the effects from defoliating are strain dependent?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 8, 2014)

Sparkticus said:


> Cool thread. Quick question (sorry if it's been covered). The results are going to be specific to Skywalker and strains with similar lineage, right? Since the effects from defoliating are strain dependent?


absolutely. experiment would have to be repeated on a representative strain to guage the effects on that type of plant. this is a Sativa Dom OG lineage. it would be unscientific and illogical to apply the results to other strains. one would have to repeat the experiment on a given strain to conclude whether or not defoliation enhances yield or doesnt.


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## Sparkticus (May 8, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> absolutely. experiment would have to be repeated on a representative strain to guage the effects on that type of plant. this is a Sativa Dom OG lineage.


Thanks. Subbed to see results.


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## MaineMooseRider (May 9, 2014)

Well I have 3 of my 4 plants pruned. There was so much work on one last night that I still have one to do. Sitting and bending in to the tent to prune ends up making me hurt. I really hurt last night although I did vape a bag and it helped I just kind of fell asleep. Lol

I did want to mention that at first I thought when I pruned the plants might take a day or two to get over the stress of the pruning but instead I saw a lot more buds coming up and checking levels the drank a little but ate up the nutrients. I had to add nutrients to all the buckets. I will see how much they drank today but most likely I won't do anything to them because tomorrow is water change day.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 9, 2014)

MaineMooseRider said:


> Well I have 3 of my 4 plants pruned. There was so much work on one last night that I still have one to do. Sitting and bending in to the tent to prune ends up making me hurt. I really hurt last night although I did vape a bag and it helped I just kind of fell asleep. Lol
> 
> I did want to mention that at first I thought when I pruned the plants might take a day or two to get over the stress of the pruning but instead I saw a lot more buds coming up and checking levels the drank a little but ate up the nutrients. I had to add nutrients to all the buckets. I will see how much they drank today but most likely I won't do anything to them because tomorrow is water change day.


Glad to hear you are on top of it. When your plant stops wasting energy underneath, it applies it to the growing tips. I regularly grow bigger buds than anything in any shop. Lets keep this thread about this grow tho.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 9, 2014)

Day 13
Had a little snafu last night two hours before lights out. I entered the room andbit was already dark. Wtf? Turns out i bumped a timer and lights went out early. I reset it. Lights come back on. Dont know how long it was dark for but since it was day 12, i soaked them with reverse and called it good. Its too easy to make one mistake that can ruin everything.


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## Uncle Ben (May 9, 2014)

The myth of the supposedly ill effect of shading bud sites (such areas aren't capable of any meaningful photosynthesis) has been discussed with every new crop of newbies in every cannabis forum including this one. All one has to do is use the RIU search feature and you'll find all the defoliation hype and anecdotal evidence to last you a lifetime in a dozen threads.

Wish ya luck anyway Oscar.....but this and all other threads deemed "scientific" is hardly a scientific experiment. I'm testing Keyplex 350DP, this being a good example of a real scientific experiment http://www.keyplex.com/research-topics/Citrus/Timmer-KeyPlex-on-Greasy-Spot.pdf

Uncle Ben


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## Cascadian (May 9, 2014)

Had a "timer bump" incident happen to me only the dark period was interrupted by 3 hours of light which I read is worse than what happened to you, interrupting the light period with dark. 

I didnt have any problems develop, they should be fine. I didnt use any reverse on mine. The timer is now in a much safer spot...


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 9, 2014)

Cascadian said:


> Had a "timer bump" incident happen to me only the dark period was interrupted by 3 hours of light which I read is worse than what happened to you, interrupting the light period with dark.
> 
> I didnt have any problems develop, they should be fine. I didnt use any reverse on mine. The timer is now in a much safer spot...


Thanks. Being that i have shit plugged in ubiquitously I had to put it on this one wall and it got bumped to off but not till after i left the room. I have since taped the slider to timer. it's always something...



Uncle Ben said:


> The myth of the supposedly ill effect of shading bud sites (such areas aren't capable of any meaningful photosynthesis) has been discussed with every new crop of newbies in every cannabis forum including this one. All one has to do is use the RIU search feature and you'll find all the defoliation hype and anecdotal evidence to last you a lifetime in a dozen threads.
> 
> Wish ya luck anyway Oscar.....but this and all other threads deemed "scientific" is hardly a scientific experiment. I'm testing Keyplex 350DP, this being a good example of a real scientific experiment http://www.keyplex.com/research-topics/Citrus/Timmer-KeyPlex-on-Greasy-Spot.pdf
> 
> Uncle Ben


Thank UB but I will take my chances. Being a researcher in the Botany/Cell&Molecular Biology space, I think I know how to run a simple High-School-science-fair-type experiment. I also know that bud sites are flowers, not leaves. I know that photosynthesis takes place primarily in leaves. Anecdotal 'evidence' is not enough for me. My hypothesis is not that the bud sites will photosynthesize but actually that the fan leaves go from being a 'source' of energy to a 'sink' for energy. My theory is to remove these at the opportune time so that they don't compete with buds for precious resources. If it is a waste of time, I will have satisfied myself. However, I like to pluck my plants of certain leaves. I want to know FOR MYSELF if that works or not. If you ask RIU 50 times you will get 50 different, dubious answers.

I see from your reprint that you are also a researcher. I've contributed much data to peer reviewed journals through my involvement in the lab at my university. We also have a citrus research station that delves into the various pests of citrus. 
I'm trying to warm my boss up to the idea of letting me do some _Cannabis Sativa_ trials eventually. So far it isn't going well.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 9, 2014)

a few pics from day 13


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 9, 2014)

I should say if you ask RIU 50 times you will get five answers that seem to make sense, five answers that contradict those five
and about forty troll responses/argumentative bullshit responses. Not 'answers'.


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## MaineMooseRider (May 9, 2014)

My apologies. I will just watch from now on.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 9, 2014)

Feel free to comment or ask questions about _this experimental grow. _ 
You can always start your own journal or thread. Its just that ppl lose interest if the thread digresses from the topic that drew them in the first place. 


MaineMooseRider said:


> My apologies. I will just watch from now on.


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## Uncle Ben (May 10, 2014)

I just don't understand the common forum paradigm (most often parroted by noobs) that for some strange reason cannabis budsites need light to perform. Try convincing a commercial fruit, nut or grape grower in which at least 50% of the flowers/fruit/seeds are shaded by the canopy.


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## sikkinixx (May 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I just don't understand the common forum paradigm (most often parroted by noobs) that for some strange reason cannabis budsites need light to perform. Try convincing a commercial fruit, nut or grape grower in which at least 50% of the flowers/fruit/seeds are shaded by the canopy.


I agree with you but...


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## sikkinixx (May 10, 2014)

Interesting article in good old high times about leaves. 

http://www.hightimes.com/read/nico’s-nuggets-understanding-anatomy-your-plants


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## chuck estevez (May 10, 2014)

sikkinixx said:


> Interesting article in good old high times about leaves.
> 
> http://www.hightimes.com/read/nico’s-nuggets-understanding-anatomy-your-plants


 your link( Invalid URL) 

http://www.hightimes.com/read/nico’s-nuggets-understanding-anatomy-your-plants


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## Sparkticus (May 10, 2014)

Man... I'm no help at all, lol. Being an avid grower of veggies, herbs, fruit, regular old flowers, etc., I can say that some plants (In my experience) like my beef steak tomatoes, absolutely produce bigger, better fruit when pruned (trim runners, minor defoliation). That holds true for a lot of my decorative flowers as well. These types of plants have a natural tendency to waste energy on unnecessary growth. Some plants, like my peppers, do not. I leave them completely untouched, except for pulling off old, dead/dying leaves. I've heard you can prune and top peppers for better results but, I haven't had good experiences. I grow multiple plants so, I'll top one and leave another alone as a control. Some of my plants I prune and it promotes flower bloom and growth along with general plant health, some I leave alone because it seems unnecessary or negatively effects functions. 

I think the question is what category marijuana falls into and whether or not that changes depending on strain. In my opinion environment may also play a huge roll. Outdoor MJ plants (as a general statement and in optimal conditions) may not need as much pruning because they are receiving enough over-all energy to promote healthy growth to the entire plant. If every leaf is healthy and there is an excess of energy, none is wasted on promoting leaf health and all the energy produced continues to go to the most important function of any plant... flowering and reproduction. This is the natural function of things and what Uncle B is referring to with farmers, I think. You can correct me if I'm wrong and you're talking about greenhouse tree farmers, lol. Because indoors we are trying to replicate the sun moving through the sky (which is frankly impossible even with the best light systems), some pruning may do a better job of upping the energy received from synthetic light sources by helping it reach more parts of the plant. Which in this experiment, to me, seems to be the question.

I think if we keep Oscar's experiment to it's basic core (Skywalker OG strain, indoors, same nutes/stats etc.), we can say in the end that: Said strain, grown in THESE specific conditions, of which the only difference was defoliation, is a viable experiment. Trying to broaden it to marijauana in general or any other environment/strain/conditions would be invalid. A much, much broader experiment would be needed.

And of course anyone who grows successfully will tell you their way is the best, right? Haha. I live near farmers and everyone of them (while following basic protocol) has tweaks and tricks that they swear by. As long as you are getting good results...do what you do.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 10, 2014)

I agree wholeheartedly. We don't know. I don't know for sure. I had been tossing the idea around to do the experiment for awhile and I started a new grow with all one strain and separate and distinct tables so it's a perfect time to learn something. Uncle Ben is very knowledgeable and a researcher in Citrus at Florida so I believe him. However, curiosity killed the cat and I am a cat with a high tolerance for curiosity. I too grow a ton of veggies: herbs, lettuces, everything to make salsa (haha), flowers, lime, lemon and grapefruit. I just have to see for myself on the Cannabis Sativa Skywalker OG. 


Sparkticus said:


> Man... I'm no help at all, lol. Being an avid grower of veggies, herbs, fruit, regular old flowers, etc., I can say that some plants (In my experience) like my beef steak tomatoes, absolutely produce bigger, better fruit when pruned (trim runners, minor defoliation). That holds true for a lot of my decorative flowers as well. These types of plants have a natural tendency to waste energy on unnecessary growth. Some plants, like my peppers, do not. I leave them completely untouched, except for pulling off old, dead/dying leaves. I've heard you can prune and top peppers for better results but, I haven't had good experiences. I grow multiple plants so, I'll top one and leave another alone as a control. Some of my plants I prune and it promotes flower bloom and growth along with general plant health, some I leave alone because it seems unnecessary or negatively effects functions.
> 
> I think the question is what category marijuana falls into and whether or not that changes depending on strain. In my opinion environment may also play a huge roll. Outdoor MJ plants (as a general statement and in optimal conditions) may not need as much pruning because they are receiving enough over-all energy to promote healthy growth to the entire plant. If every leaf is healthy and there is an excess of energy, none is wasted on promoting leaf health and all the energy produced continues to go to the most important function of any plant... flowering and reproduction. This is the natural function of things and what Uncle B is referring to with farmers, I think. You can correct me if I'm wrong and you're talking about greenhouse tree farmers, lol. Because indoors we are trying to replicate the sun moving through the sky (which is frankly impossible even with the best light systems), some pruning may do a better job of upping the energy received from synthetic light sources by helping it reach more parts of the plant. Which in this experiment, to me, seems to be the question.
> 
> ...


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I just don't understand the common forum paradigm (most often parroted by noobs) that for some strange reason cannabis budsites need light to perform. Try convincing a commercial fruit, nut or grape grower in which at least 50% of the flowers/fruit/seeds are shaded by the canopy.


Here's why: because the lower bud sites are smaller than the ones on top. ergo: more light is better.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 10, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I just don't understand the common forum paradigm (most often parroted by noobs) that for some strange reason cannabis budsites need light to perform. Try convincing a commercial fruit, nut or grape grower in which at least 50% of the flowers/fruit/seeds are shaded by the canopy.


If I had a field of grapes or nuts or whatnot I wouldn't bother defoliating anyway. too much work to do a field. grapes are like a few bucks per pound tho. I grow medicine that is worth a hundred times that so I can put in the handiwork to make it better, why not put in the handiwork to make it MORE? I only have 150 sq ft so it's not that much work. I'm gonna defol completely at the end so its really just a question of more work NOW vs more work LATER. is it worth it or not? 

that's all I wanna know. and I'm gonna ask the only person I trust: myself.


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## Uncle Ben (May 10, 2014)

> Here's why: because the lower bud sites are smaller than the ones on top. ergo: more light is better.


They are smaller based on chronological age and apical dominance. Has NOTHING to do with light.

You need to do a couple of outdoor grows, and stop this never ending noobie bullshit.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 10, 2014)

you may be right. what you say makes sense. I'm still gonna do the experiment. if you don't like my thread you don't have to read it. 


Uncle Ben said:


> They are smaller based on chronological age and apical dominance. Has NOTHING to do with light.
> 
> You need to do a couple of outdoor grows, and stop this never ending noobie bullshit.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 10, 2014)

its not even about light. its about whether or not yanking leaves off helps or hurts.


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## miccyj (May 10, 2014)

I hate to disagree with uncle Ben, and I by no means know as much about the plant we all love so much, but I've been yanking leaves in flower for the better part of a year now and I've seen the results first hand, my bottom and mid growth is much more dense, and my tops don't seem to suffer for it at all. 

Just my 2 cents.


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## m3d1c1n3man (May 11, 2014)

miccyj said:


> I hate to disagree with uncle Ben, and I by no means know as much about the plant we all love so much, but I've been yanking leaves in flower for the better part of a year now and I've seen the results first hand, my bottom and mid growth is much more dense, and my tops don't seem to suffer for it at all.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


there is no doubt that removing upper leaves will result in bigger lower buds, but my theory is that it will also result in smaller top kolas, which is the number one importance imo.


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

m3d1c1n3man said:


> there is no doubt that removing upper leaves will result in bigger lower buds, but my theory is that it will also result in smaller top kolas, which is the number one importance imo.


I think that if this is true, the size difference of the top colas is negligible, and offset by the increase of total weight of the entire harvest, and for a commercial grower like me, that is more important than slightly larger colas. I may feel differently if I only grew for personal use. But again, I'm not convinced that it does hurt the top colas at all. I'm starting a new room in a couple of weeks with 24 WWxBB and 24 greenhouse seeds the doctor, I think that I will leave a couple of each unplugged and see how they do.


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## BenFranklin (May 11, 2014)

God I have to repeat this over and over... MARIJUANA IS NOT LIKE A WATERMELLON or A PUMPKIN....

They are not VINES, if you chop some material off, they do not grow, "bigger" because you did....

The site will only grow as big as the genetic will allow that site to grow. If you chop the top Kola, you just made 2 smaller kola's, that were able to get unblocked light. Cut those 2 kolas and you get 4 kolas that are about half the size as the 2 mains, and a 1/4 the size of what the original kola would have been.

Take 2 clones, cut one in half, leave the other alone... See what happens.


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

BenFranklin said:


> God I have to repeat this over and over... MARIJUANA IS NOT LIKE A WATERMELLON or A PUMPKIN....
> 
> They are not VINES, if you chop some material off, they do not grow, "bigger" because you did....
> 
> ...


I'm not arguing this point, it maybe true, but only if you are able to make the plant produce 100% of its potential, but how often do you get the absolute maximum size from every bud? If you do, you are a far greater Gardner than me. 
My point is that for me, defoliating has proven to give an increase in over all yield, which indicates that without defoliation, I'm not getting the most out of my plant, and for the last two years, my goal has been maximum quantity without sacrificing quality, and I've found this to be one of the most consistent and low maintenance ways of doing that. 

Let me be clear, I never remove any node or potential bud from my plants, I remove all large fan leaves starting at the top and working my way down in order to allow greater light penetration into the canopy and allowing for my mid and bottom buds to fully develop into good size nugz, as opposed to light airy garbage.


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## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

Jeez even when trying to find out for yourself you get slammed!! I'm sure we can all agree this is not a definitive test to seek the truth lol. Its a fucking guy wanting to see for himself what the outcome will be, wow! If indeed the pruned/ defoliated plant does better is that a reason to start plucking leaves off of all your plants? I think not. Why can't you guys just sit back and watch lol. This reminds me of the big rock I have (had) in my yard. My dad would say that it cant be moved due to its massive size under the ground (been there for years lol) i finally dug it up to see and it went down 4", tied it to my truck and pulled it out! Kinda miss the rock .


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## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

FYI still here Oscar!! But I fear there' gonna. Be calls for you to be drawn and quartered lol. I guess the quest for knowledge is not that noble after all, just a huge waste of ones time. Really just do what your told!!!!


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## neo12345 (May 11, 2014)

BenFranklin said:


> God I have to repeat this over and over... MARIJUANA IS NOT LIKE A WATERMELLON or A PUMPKIN....
> 
> They are not VINES, if you chop some material off, they do not grow, "bigger" because you did....
> 
> ...


Damn, I just bought a couple of ounces of Honeydew Kush!! 

So are you saying that topping for 2,4 or 6 cola's is a complete waste of time, as the increase in cola's results in smaller cola's in terms of yield?


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## Uncle Ben (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> if you don't like my thread you don't have to read it.


No need to take this personally.

Being that this is about the 50th (lame) defoliation thread at this made-for-noobies-with-theories-who-have-no-common-sense website, it just gets boring. Most of you guys wouldn't understand the function of a leaf if it bit you on the ass.

Read my red sig line and have fun with your yanking activities.

Uncle Ben


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## BenFranklin (May 11, 2014)

No.. the yield will be the same, and might be a little better, because all of the little kola's were able to get the same light, that they would not get, if you had the light over a 2 foot tall kola.... 

So all those side buds are further away from the light and unable to reach the full potential they could if they were closer to the light.

However. Then you end up with 5 lbs of tiny little one hit buds, and it's REALLY hard to harvest and trim, leaving you with 5 lbs of mediocre little buds that have been man handled repeatedly and harshly... Instead of one big 4 lb PRIMO kola.

Get it?


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## Hydroburn (May 11, 2014)

This thread should really be constrained to discussions of indoor only, since outdoor/indoor scenarios are so different.

One thing is for sure, if you just let marijuana grow "wild" in your closet, you are not yielding 100% of the genetic potential. It's really very simple and pretty much any indoor grower will agree... removing old big fan leafs that shade bud sites absolutely makes the shaded nugs bigger. People assume fan leaves are 100% efficient at photosynthesis through the entire life span, but we shouldn't assume this.

Think about it... which is better: a 4" sq. fan leaf exposed to 3,600 lumens and photosynthesizing at 65% of it's maximum potential, OR, 4" sq. of fan and sugar leaf and bud material receiving 3,350 lumens a little lower down photosynthesizing at 95% max potential? In real life, who the fuck knows? 

All we can do is say those nugs got noticeably fatter when I removed shade leafs, or I removed leafs and now my yield sucks. Pretty simple to see for yourself; don't be scared to try.


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## BenFranklin (May 11, 2014)

It's just a matter of preferences and how much you want to fuck with the plant. 

Now, there is another method.... take out all the branches that are not related to that top kola, just remove them all... and then stick more plants in.. that will grow those same types of kolas, You should be able to put 1 foot long, 1 kola plants pretty tightly packed into a single space.


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## Uncle Ben (May 11, 2014)

BenFranklin said:


> God I have to repeat this over and over... MARIJUANA IS NOT LIKE A WATERMELLON or A PUMPKIN....
> 
> They are not VINES, if you chop some material off, they do not grow, "bigger" because you did....
> 
> ...


And when you thin fruit (not leaves) the remaining fruit is always bigger with better marketing appeal, taste and texture. The ratio of leaves (manufacturing plant units) to flowers/fruit/seed is the issue. Same principle, but we're talking leaves here, not seed producing units. 

Only in cannabis forums such as RIU will folks (always noobies with little to no education or experience) get the basic botanical concepts bass ackwards when it comes to flower/fruit/seed production.


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## BenFranklin (May 11, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> Think about it... which is better: a 4" sq. fan leaf exposed to 3,600 lumens and photosynthesizing at 65% of it's maximum potential, OR, 4" sq. of fan and sugar leaf and bud material receiving 3,350 lumens a little lower down photosynthesizing at 95% max potential?



Wrong... Bud materials do not provide energy for growth, that's what the leaf does.

Leaves take sun energy, CO2 and nutes, converts them to sugars and cells... Remove the leaf, and you remove the primary transpiration tool that the plant uses as building blocks for flower production.


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## Hydroburn (May 11, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> They are smaller based on chronological age and apical dominance. Has NOTHING to do with light.
> 
> You need to do a couple of outdoor grows, and stop this never ending noobie bullshit.


Maybe we don't want to grow where any fool with a $200 quadcopter and camera can see your shit.


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## Uncle Ben (May 11, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> This thread should really be constrained to discussions of indoor only, since outdoor/indoor scenarios are so different.


No they're not, as explained in previous threads. You obviously have never grown cannabis outdoors. I've grown a lot, both indoors and out and am an outdoors grower exclusively now. In spite of canopy penetration sunrise to sunset, the lower budsites will always be popcorn style. Again, light is not the issue. Chronological age, development and hormonal processes aka apical dominance is. No matter what the plant material is...tree, vine...annual like cannabis, the newer growth will always receive the goodies before the older plant material. 

Example - how many threads have you seen around here that complain that the lower leaves are yellow and finally die off? It's because most do not provide enough N, they have their NPK ratios all fucked up (because they haven't learned to stay away from the vendor's low N foods hype). So, what does the plant do? It pulls N from the lower leaves and sends it upstairs. Upper leaves stay green, lower leaves die.

UB


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## Hydroburn (May 11, 2014)

BenFranklin said:


> Wrong... Bud materials do not provide energy for growth, that's what the leaf does.
> 
> Leaves take sun energy, CO2 and nutes, converts them to sugars and cells... Remove the leaf, and you remove the primary transpiration tool that the plant uses as building blocks for flower production.


You read what I wrote all wrong.


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## Hydroburn (May 11, 2014)

The butthurt is going to be fierce in this thread... I'm out.


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

I'm happy to engage in conversation about this, sorry to OP about jacking your thread, I fully support your experiment.



Uncle Ben said:


> No need to take this personally.
> 
> Being that this is about the 50th (lame) defoliation thread at this made-for-noobies-with-theories-who-have-no-common-sense website, it just gets boring. Most of you guys wouldn't understand the function of a leaf if it bit you on the ass.
> 
> ...


Ben, I'm not talking about theories, I'm talking about results. The fact is, that I increase my total yield by removing fan leaves, I'm not claiming to completely understand why this happens, although I have a few theories, but the fact remains, I have measurable and repeatable gains of end product compared to not removing leaves at all.



Uncle Ben said:


> Only in cannabis forums such as RIU will folks (always noobies with little to no education or experience) get the basic botanical concepts bass ackwards when it comes to flower/fruit/seed production.


I'm no expert by any means of the word, but I have been growing for the better part of 6 years and I like to think that I'm no longer a "noobie". I'm just trying to discuss, no need for name calling. 

I think that the OP's experiment is sound, I dont see why there are so many ready to shoot it down before seeing the results.


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## BenFranklin (May 11, 2014)

Ahh yes, of course, you claim that what you posted I read all wrong, when in fact there is nothing to read that could be interpreted any others way than how you typed it.

Then you bailed. 

Care to elaborate? Ohh, that's right, you can't, your butthurt, so you bailed.


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Example - how many threads have you seen around here that complain that the lower leaves are yellow and finally die off? It's because most do not provide enough N, they have their NPK ratios all fucked up (because they haven't learned to stay away from the vendor's low N foods hype). So, what does the plant do? It pulls N from the lower leaves and sends it upstairs. Upper leaves stay green, lower leaves die.
> 
> UB


I haven't had this problem in quite some time.


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## tortie (May 11, 2014)

Subbed!


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## Hydroburn (May 11, 2014)

BenFranklin said:


> Care to elaborate?


Sure, I asked which will make a bud bigger: a higher up fan leaf producing energy at half efficiency that will reach the bud eventually; or the actual bud site itself with the same square inches of plant material as our fan leaf, except it would probably be like 2 small fan leafs, some sugar leaf, and bud material.

Which is a rhetorical question meant to point out how indoor defoliation is not such a cut-n-dry answer. I wasn't looking for a lecture on how bud doesn't photosynthesize; that completely misses the point of what I said... and actually makes up part of the question of - is a shaded bud site with fan leaf more or less productive than an unshaded bus site.

Outdoor should not be compared because the lighting scenario is completely different in just about every way. One is nuclear fission from a star 100 million times the mass of our planet traveling millions of miles through space, bending through our atmosphere as our planet spins like a top and rotates around the star. The other is a light bulb. The only thing they have in common is they both produce photons and heat.

Now, I'm out.


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> Sure, I asked which will make a bud bigger: a higher up fan leaf producing energy at half efficiency that will reach the bud eventually; or the actual bud site itself with the same square inches of plant material as our fan leaf, except it would probably be like 2 small fan leafs, some sugar leaf, and bud material.
> 
> Which is a rhetorical question meant to point out how indoor defoliation is not such a cut-n-dry answer. I wasn't looking for a lecture on how bud doesn't photosynthesize; that completely misses the point of what I said.
> 
> Outdoor should not be compared because the lighting scenario is completely different in just about every way.


I also remember reading a thread on RIU not to long ago with a link to an article about larger fan leaves actually competing with buds for energy, I'm not sure how accurate the report was, but this re-enforces your point "indoor defoliation is not such a cut-n-dry answer".

And I think that hostility like this prevents people from wanting to experiment to find the answers for themselves, or to share their results if they do. Why try to share information if we just get slammed for it.


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## BenFranklin (May 11, 2014)

Thank you.


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## chuck estevez (May 11, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> The butthurt is going to be fierce in this thread... I'm out.


seems like your Butt, Just got EXTREMELY hurt, which is why you are leaving. You just got defoliated by UB.


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## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

Sorry Oscar its happened!!! Slammed for trying something just to see for yourself . I dont get it??? Why not just sit back and relax, pull up a chair and watch? As stated by OP this was not a definitive test just a "lets see what happen's thing".


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## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

Quote from someone whi just had to try it for themselves lol.

"But I was "playing games" regarding 2 versus 4 years ago jest fer fun. I decided to do quite a bit of experimentation on cannabis years ago, potting techniques, soil chemistry, pest control, etc. rather than taking someone's take on it. 4 main colas is my ditty. "

Just saying it is fun to try things!!!


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## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

"Being that this is about the 50th (lame) defoliation thread at this made-for-noobies-with-theories-who-have-no-common-sense website, it just gets boring. Most of you guys wouldn't understand the function of a leaf if it bit you on the ass."

Why bother then? Why feel the need to even get involved. For that matter why are you even on this lame forum? I gotta ask because it seems like a big pain in your ass having to deal with all of these uneducated morons. Fyi i am a moron when it comes to growing pot and I've been growing outdoors for over 35 years now lol.


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## Sparkticus (May 11, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> "Being that this is about the 50th (lame) defoliation thread at this made-for-noobies-with-theories-who-have-no-common-sense website, it just gets boring. Most of you guys wouldn't understand the function of a leaf if it bit you on the ass."
> 
> Why bother then? Why feel the need to even get involved. For that matter why are you even on this lame forum? I gotta ask because it seems like a big pain in your ass having to deal with all of these uneducated morons. Fyi i am a moron when it comes to growing pot and I've been growing outdoors for over 35 years now lol.



Well said. Whatever I think I know is always subject to alterations and improvement . Considering anything to be "definitive" is detrimental to progress. Trying new things is how we learn, even if we're just soothing our stubborn nature by trying something others more experienced are telling us is wrong, lol. In fact, innovation usually happens when someone goes against popular opinion and thinks outside the box.


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## sikkinixx (May 11, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Jeez even when trying to find out for yourself you get slammed!! I'm sure we can all agree this is not a definitive test to seek the truth lol. Its a fucking guy wanting to see for himself what the outcome will be, wow! If indeed the pruned/ defoliated plant does better is that a reason to start plucking leaves off of all your plants? I think not. Why can't you guys just sit back and watch lol. This reminds me of the big rock I have (had) in my yard. My dad would say that it cant be moved due to its massive size under the ground (been there for years lol) i finally dug it up to see and it went down 4", tied it to my truck and pulled it out! Kinda miss the rock .


Very true... but seriously, why'd you yank the rock out? People pay top dollar for big ass rocks for land scape "features." White people will buy anything.


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## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

sikkinixx said:


> Very true... but seriously, why'd you yank the rock out? People pay top dollar for big ass rocks for land scape "features." White people will buy anything.


It kept getting in the way lol. I live in the land of rocks. Want some?


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## sikkinixx (May 11, 2014)

Fuck weed. Tryin' to hustle them rocks son!


waterdawg said:


> It kept getting in the way lol. I live in the land of rocks. Want some?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

miccyj said:


> I hate to disagree with uncle Ben, and I by no means know as much about the plant we all love so much, but I've been yanking leaves in flower for the better part of a year now and I've seen the results first hand, my bottom and mid growth is much more dense, and my tops don't seem to suffer for it at all.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.


miccy I'm gonna start yanking leaves right now. I was thinking to yank all damaged leaves, all leaves that create crowding, and I'm even debating taking the mature fans from the buds in late flower. I'm starting to yank leaves today. what is your vote on what to pull? here are some pics of tables A and B respectively and flowers too


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> No need to take this personally.
> 
> Being that this is about the 50th (lame) defoliation thread at this made-for-noobies-with-theories-who-have-no-common-sense website, it just gets boring. Most of you guys wouldn't understand the function of a leaf if it bit you on the ass.
> 
> ...


I'm not taking it personally. I read it. I have given you nothing but respect. You have been mildly condescending and outrightly dismissive. 
I'm no noob. I've pulled almost a g per w and I'm getting better all the time. 
I like to yank leaves. I just wanna know if this hurts my yield, does nothing to my yield, or god-forbid, increases my yield. 
WE WILL FIND OUT IN JULY.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> Maybe we don't want to grow where any fool with a $200 quadcopter and camera can see your shit.


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2606972/Thieves-using-heat-detecting-60-drones-bought-supermarkets-spot-cannabis-farms-break-steal-drugs.html


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

BenFranklin said:


> No.. the yield will be the same, and might be a little better, because all of the little kola's were able to get the same light, that they would not get, if you had the light over a 2 foot tall kola....
> 
> So all those side buds are further away from the light and unable to reach the full potential they could if they were closer to the light.
> 
> ...


this is why I lollipop and mainline. I CONSISTENTLY have the biggest buds of anything on the shelf at any shop. why? cuz other growers are too lazy to prune their plants. they would rather trim popcorn, I guess. 
that being said, I prune from the bottom to the top and from the main stem to the halfway point of the branch, concentrating my energy to the apical and lateral meristems. 
the question I want to settle here is whether or not I should prune/defol from the top down? 

top down or bottom up, guys?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> This thread should really be constrained to discussions of indoor only, since outdoor/indoor scenarios are so different.
> 
> One thing is for sure, if you just let marijuana grow "wild" in your closet, you are not yielding 100% of the genetic potential. It's really very simple and pretty much any indoor grower will agree... removing old big fan leafs that shade bud sites absolutely makes the shaded nugs bigger. People assume fan leaves are 100% efficient at photosynthesis through the entire life span, but we shouldn't assume this.
> 
> ...


. 
agreed. I can only speak to indoor cuz I have never grown outdoors.
I plan on removing leaves that are obviously performing at less than 100%. for instance:
~leaves that are withering underneath the canopy
~leaves that show signs of damage or stress
~leaves where the function of energizing growth has been taken over by a nascent (new) set of leaves)

so basically I am planning to defol from the bottom up. miccyj defols top down. 
anybody have an opinion on this? I want to start with a consistent plan of attack.

the theory is that leaves are either a source or a sink. I plan to remove 'sink' leaves and leave the 'source' leaves


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> miccy I'm gonna start yanking leaves right now. I was thinking to yank all damaged leaves, all leaves that create crowding, and I'm even debating taking the mature fans from the buds in late flower. I'm starting to yank leaves today. what is your vote on what to pull? here are some pics of tables A and B respectively and flowers too


Hey mate, I usually don't let anything get bigger than the palm of my hand, but I have been told I'm quite drastic with my plucking but I get good results. 

There is a good how to on it here http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial

This guy seems to know what he's doing.


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## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

I'm not leaning one way or the other re: benefits but what I have read is that lots of guys that do start defoliating at veg and do it right through the growth cycle. Pulling off any leaf that has a stem longer than 1". That is the approach I took as it seemed like a true defoliation test and not just the leafs that shaded. If you are testing the effects of defoliation my instincts would be to pull them all off as I did. Hopefully things have settled down a bit lol and you can get on with it.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

miccyj said:


> I'm happy to engage in conversation about this, sorry to OP about jacking your thread, I fully support your experiment.
> I think that the OP's experiment is sound, I dont see why there are so many ready to shoot it down before seeing the results.


 no worries about jacking the thread as we are still talking about the subject of defoliation. frankly I am pumped to have interested supporters and interested detractors. hubris may be responsible for some of the BS; I'm not deterred. 
apparently UB didn't read the opening thread cuz I'm neither uneducated no inexperienced. I have a BS in Botany from a major university and treat everything like a research project for a lab. not quite like HIM but ok. 

I started yanking leaves after I let a bunch of White Fire OG run fucking wild in my scrog. those bitches got SO BIG and so thick that light could not reach the inner spaces. those inner buds were weak and underdeveloped. I still got .79 g per watt. 

*SO that starting me thinking that maybe a little more canopy maintenance would keep things nice and airy, giving all bud sites a chance to bask in the daylight and come to their full potential.*

that's it. not here to make anyone look stupid or feel bad about their POV.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

miccyj said:


> Hey mate, I usually don't let anything get bigger than the palm of my hand, but I have been told I'm quite drastic with my plucking but I get good results.
> 
> There is a good how to on it here http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial
> 
> This guy seems to know what he's doing.


i like this rule. I will read up on it.


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## Thckingdom (May 11, 2014)

I


OscarLaGrouch said:


> *Summary*
> Preliminary research of the internet on the effect of defoliation on _Cannabis Sativa_ yields results in little definitive information. The only way to determine if defoliation has a positive, negative or neutral effect on yield is to do a side-by-side comparison. This experiment will do just that. Controlling for all other variables, the only experimental variable will be the methodical removal of fan leaves that effectively shade bud sites. The goal is to determine if allowing artificial light to reach these sites provides the extra energy to increase flower size. Alternatively, it may be determined that removal of leaves has a hormonal effect on plants that may or may not be deleterious to increased yields.
> 
> *Background*
> ...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> I'm not leaning one way or the other re: benefits but what I have read is that lots of guys that do start defoliating at veg and do it right through the growth cycle. Pulling off any leaf that has a stem longer than 1". That is the approach I took as it seemed like a true defoliation test and not just the leafs that shaded. If you are testing the effects of defoliation my instincts would be to pull them all off as I did. Hopefully things have settled down a bit lol and you can get on with it.


I read about the 1" petiole somewhere else, probably from you. that seems like a good idea because, at that point, another set of leaves is closer to the meristem, powering growth from there. now the leaf with the petiole is perhaps in competition with the inflorescence.

i think we feed so aggressively that plants pop out more leaves than they really need so if you cut back on the leaf count, more energy goes to flower production.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> Sure, I asked which will make a bud bigger: a higher up fan leaf producing energy at half efficiency that will reach the bud eventually; or the actual bud site itself with the same square inches of plant material as our fan leaf, except it would probably be like 2 small fan leafs, some sugar leaf, and bud material.
> 
> Which is a rhetorical question meant to point out how indoor defoliation is not such a cut-n-dry answer. I wasn't looking for a lecture on how bud doesn't photosynthesize; that completely misses the point of what I said... and actually makes up *part of the question of - is a shaded bud site with fan leaf more or less productive than an unshaded bus site.*
> 
> Now, I'm out.


cmon don't leave. this is exactly the question I am pondering. help me answer it.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> "Being that this is about the 50th (lame) defoliation thread at this made-for-noobies-with-theories-who-have-no-common-sense website, it just gets boring. Most of you guys wouldn't understand the function of a leaf if it bit you on the ass."
> 
> Why bother then? Why feel the need to even get involved. For that matter why are you even on this lame forum? I gotta ask because it seems like a big pain in your ass having to deal with all of these uneducated morons. Fyi i am a moron when it comes to growing pot and I've been growing outdoors for over 35 years now lol.


UB is an academic doing real research and we are just noobs wasting time and everything else in our stupid indoor sandbox.

as I am the sole financier of said sandbox, it is not cutting into anyone else's budget to try this out.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> No they're not, as explained in previous threads. You obviously have never grown cannabis outdoors. I've grown a lot, both indoors and out and am an outdoors grower exclusively now. In spite of canopy penetration sunrise to sunset, the lower budsites will always be popcorn style. Again, light is not the issue. Chronological age, development and hormonal processes aka apical dominance is. No matter what the plant material is...tree, vine...annual like cannabis, the newer growth will always receive the goodies before the older plant material.
> 
> Example - how many threads have you seen around here that complain that the lower leaves are yellow and finally die off? It's because most do not provide enough N, they have their NPK ratios all fucked up (because they haven't learned to stay away from the vendor's low N foods hype). So, what does the plant do? It pulls N from the lower leaves and sends it upstairs. Upper leaves stay green, lower leaves die.
> 
> UB


I agree with all of this. I feel like my chemdawgs want N in week 7. they look pale. I wish I'd fed it to them longer. 
its not gonna hurt anyone but me to do this experiment so everybody needs to chillax.


----------



## waterdawg (May 11, 2014)

Well im getting to old to play in the outdoor sand box lol. It was a shitload of work lol. Never did less than 50 and the biggest outdoor was 500 :-O. That was a long time ago if anyones watching btw lol.


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## Sparkticus (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I read about the 1" petiole somewhere else, probably from you. that seems like a good idea because, at that point, another set of leaves is closer to the meristem, powering growth from there. now the leaf with the petiole is perhaps in competition with the inflorescence.
> 
> i think we feed so aggressively that plants pop out more leaves than they really need so if you cut back on the leaf count, more energy goes to flower production.


Healthy plants will produce more foliage than they need, to compensate for natural defoliation (weather, pests etc.). So when we care for plants indoors and remove those factors, there is a good possibility the plant has more leaves than it needs to function at it's maximum. Some leaves can go and have no effect on the plant's functions... it's a natural defense mechanism for the plant. However, unless those leaves are unhealthy and draining energy to stay alive (which is usually a mistake on our parts via feeding or whatever), I don't think their existence (even if shading sites) will negatively affect flower growth. Some indoor growers I respect and who consistently get huge yields, don't yank anything but they also have extremely healthy plants start to finish. Since all their leaves are green and happy, the leaves are strictly producing energy, not taking any away. That's their logic anyway and I tend to agree based on looking at their bushes, haha. 

If the plants stay FREE OF DEFICIENCIES and such my prediction would be : The yields will be relatively close. Some defoliation of healthy leaves is natural and will have little effect on yields. Too much defoliation will lower yields... I think we can all agree plants need some amount of leaves to be healthy, lol (which brings up a good question, how much defoliation is too much?). If the untouched plants are healthy throughout, they will produce as much as defoliated plants, even in shaded sites. This is an educated guess at best and if I'm completely wrong, I'm okay with that.... I learned something. *This guess isn't really based on a scrog which may very well need to be defoliated up to the screen to be as effective by design.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

oooooooooooooooooooooooooook read the article. fan leaves with petioles getting yanked in 3 2 1...


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## Thckingdom (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> TABLE B


 I defol this plant 2weeks into flower now they are at 32days an aim for 56day harvest


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

well my camera wants a charge and I'm trying to accomodate it before lights out. 
took a shitload of leaves off of table A. maybe a third or so. maybe 25% but they were all mature leaves with long petioles. left everything that was still maturing in size. it looks a lot lighter and airier in the canopy compared to table B wish I could show you. 
I feel like I just unburdened the plants of table A and table B is like. what about us?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

should I defol 1x or 2x week? opinions?


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> well my camera wants a charge and I'm trying to accomodate it before lights out.
> took a shitload of leaves off of table A. maybe a third or so. maybe 25% but they were all mature leaves with long petioles. left everything that was still maturing in size. it looks a lot lighter and airier in the canopy compared to table B wish I could show you.
> I feel like I just unburdened the plants of table A and table B is like. what about us?


Haha, I bet your gonna see the difference in growth between the two table very quickly, I can't wait to see pics in a week. 


OscarLaGrouch said:


> should I defol 1x or 2x week? opinions?


I usually do it once a week, but I'm not religious about it, when things start to get bushy, I tidy it up.


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## Uncle Ben (May 11, 2014)

Any "experiment" by any member of RIU is meaningless. The results are based on seeing what one wants to see


OscarLaGrouch said:


> should I defol 1x or 2x week? opinions?


Since you seem to think budsites need light to produce, why don't you completely defoliate your plant?


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Any "experiment" by any member of RIU is meaningless. The results are based on seeing what one wants to see
> 
> 
> Since you seem to think budsites need light to produce, why don't you completely defoliate your plant?


Wow, just.... Wow..... If you have such a low opinion of those here, why bother posting at all? This is just rude and unproductive and to be honest I would have expected better from a community veteran. Very disappointing.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Any "experiment" by any member of RIU is meaningless. The results are based on seeing what one wants to see
> 
> 
> Since you seem to think budsites need light to produce, why don't you completely defoliate your plant?


go study your citrus plants and drink your HaterAde in the orange grove.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

A B


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

one more troll post and he's blocked. I don't come here to fight with arrogant know-it-alls. I come here to learn, to teach what I know and to feel a sense of community. stop fucking with that.


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> A B


Looking good mate, just a note, I wouldn't leave what you plucked on the ground, as it breaks down it might encourage pests and mold, i keep all my leaves in a box and have a fire pit bbq every couple of months,


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## Thckingdom (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> A B


Table b will grow bigger bud as you have removed all under growth below the net you can prune an take clones right up to 2week in to bud,drop your lights a bit to promote close internode,an I would apply same method to table A


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

miccyj said:


> Looking good mate, just a note, I wouldn't leave what you plucked on the ground, as it breaks down it might encourage pests and mold, i keep all my leaves in a box and have a fire pit bbq every couple of months,


I know dude. I just left it there for the pix. I compost that shit. I'll pick it up tomoro since lights are out now.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> Table b will grow bigger bud as you have removed all under growth below the net you can prune an take clones right up to 2week in to bud,drop your lights a bit to promote close internode,an I would apply same method to table A


Table A is the one defoliated. I will post each table separately from now on to avoid confusion. Both tables were lollipopped below the net. I already took clones in veg and have a nice tray for the next run rooting as we speak.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> Table b will grow bigger bud as you have removed all under growth below the net you can prune an take clones right up to 2week in to bud,drop your lights a bit to promote close internode,an I would apply same method to table A


these are OG and 1000w HPS so they gotta be 24" or the plants show heat stress from too rapid transpiraton.


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## Thckingdom (May 11, 2014)

They are coming along good mate,tonight ill post my 3week into flower g13x for you guys to check out an my African queen ,I'm enjoying your guys post


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## Thckingdom (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> these are OG and 1000w HPS so they gotta be 24" or the plants show heat stress from too rapid transpiraton.


Ok yes 1000w,have a lot of heat,need good air circulation, I use 600w x4 over each plant which can cause heat stress, if fans set up wrong


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> Ok yes 1000w,have a lot of heat,need good air circulation, I use 600w x4 over each plant which can cause heat stress, if fans set up wrong


this room is dialed in. fans. ac. dehu. see first post for details.


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## Thckingdom (May 11, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> this room is dialed in. fans. ac. dehu. see first post for details.


On the defol I also just cut parts of the leaf off that is covering lower or neighbouring bud eg; if some leaf has three fingers over a bud ill trim them back to to expose it less stress an leaf still does its job


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> On the defol I also just cut parts of the leaf off that is covering lower or neighbouring bud eg; if some leaf has three fingers over a bud ill trim them back to to expose it less stress an leaf still does its job


Yeah i have seen it done that way. Thought about it. So many damn leaves i just clipped at the petiole


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## miccyj (May 11, 2014)

Oscar, just wondering mate, do you run cO2 in your room?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 11, 2014)

miccyj said:


> Oscar, just wondering mate, do you run cO2 in your room?


I do. Run tanks on a regulator set to 1500 ppms. Run the room as hot as 84 til week 7 then cut co2 and drop temps to under 80 or less depending on strain. If i want purple i drop lower.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Oscar


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## Thckingdom (May 12, 2014)

Check it our guys,10 days veg from clone,25 days flower ,just a bit wider then coke can an longer, this is just an experiment for next crop an I think it may have already passed lol African queen


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## waterdawg (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I read about the 1" petiole somewhere else, probably from you. that seems like a good idea because, at that point, another set of leaves is closer to the meristem, powering growth from there. now the leaf with the petiole is perhaps in competition with the inflorescence.
> 
> i think we feed so aggressively that plants pop out more leaves than they really need so if you cut back on the leaf count, more energy goes to flower production.


You may have heard it from me but I would have been quoting an article I had read. As I said earlier, i was involved in a thread recently that was quite interesting and didnt devolve into a slinging match of degrees and condescending tones (Not directed at OP btw lol). I'm still waiting to hear why UB and others feel the need to respond to something that is so irrelevant, and a waste of one's time.


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## waterdawg (May 12, 2014)

I'm kind of excited to get another run going and try again. As a newb (2.5 years) doing hydro there are many things to try, scrog being one. Its just an amazing hobby for me as I love the final product lol. I need a bigger shed . It sounds like you have your setup dialled in Oscar. I have done everything myself re: system build, and trying different methods is half the fun! Well until it leads to a poor grow like the last one lol, i contribute the failure in part to listening to advice followed on this site. Did i get pissed and start slamming? Nope, just learned that that particular advice didnt work as well in my setup lol. Sorry high and rambling, I'll stop lol.


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

miccyj said:


> Wow, just.... Wow..... If you have such a low opinion of those here, why bother posting at all? This is just rude and unproductive and to be honest I would have expected better from a community veteran. Very disappointing.


Not trying to be rude, just making a point, a point you don't like so there goes the demonizing drills. Like I said, this is about the 10th defoliation thread I've seen, all based on conjecture and a lack of understanding of what makes a plant tick. The fact that you guys think a budsite needs light to produce confirms my conviction, you don't understand plant processes.

Question remains and it is a valid one - why don't you yank all of your large fan leaves? I mean isn't that what mother nature does over millenium, evolve into a living system complete with useless plant units?

UB


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

miccyj said:


> There is a good how to on it here http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial
> *This guy seems to know what he's doing*.


And so does that monkey painting my garage wall.

Look, that is NOT an empirically controlled scientific experiment performed in triplicate by a non-partisan, independent lab. It is another push for some "growing secret", a come-on to a sales pitch for an expensive book priced out at $57. Go head, place it in your cart.


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## miccyj (May 12, 2014)

UB, I do yank all my large fan leaves, in fact I said it earlier, I yank anything bigger than the palm of my hand and I get positive results. 

Have you actually performed any experimentation in regards to this subject or are you simply saying it shouldn't work, so therefore it won't? You know that we once thought the world was flat and that the earth was the centre of the universe.


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

I get positive results and I don't yank my leaves. What's your point? And yes, I've experimented with cannabis until I'm blue in the face and that includes pulling large fan leaves.

UNLESS, there is a good reason for doing so and I know that it will induce MORE foliage output, I might prune. Your focus should NOT be on producing bud, but producing and retaining the most foliage and root mass you can until harvest. Bud production will follow, naturally.

Fact - older leaves are not as productive as younger, mature leaves. The plant will pull the resources from a leaf that is undergoing necrosis and use it to its benefit.

https://www.rollitup.org/t/defoliation-question-anyone-familiar-with-it.602889/page-18

Jorge: "Keep the leaves on. This is based on science, not hearsay, on empirical science."...."your retarding the plant."


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## miccyj (May 12, 2014)

So if what your saying is correct, than this experiment will show that there is a detrimental effect on the plants that are being plucked and I say there will be a positive effect. Now we can wait and see what happens.


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

What "experiment"? Miccyi, you're ignoring my points, and that's OK. Perhaps someone understands the difference between a unsubstantiated journal by a stoner with a cell phone, CFL lights and a grow tent and a bonafide field study conducted by doctors of horticulture and their assistants under the strictest of laboratory conditions.

I wish him well, but the "results" are meaningless to me. I'm a professional and I will ONLY embrace actual, scientific field tests. Having said that, I'm am about to send a care package off to a grower in Santa Cruz as reflected at another site. Want to experiment, try Keyplex. After pissing off a lot of money and time on snake oils, this seems to be the real deal. This is just a few items I'm sending (in small quantities of course) -


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## neo12345 (May 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Since you seem to think budsites need light to produce, why don't you completely defoliate your plant?


Sorry you seem to be getting a lot of questions at the moment but I have one for you, if you have a moment to answer it.

My question is can light have an effect on apical dominance?

The reason for my asking is that when I've grown with plants placed in a circle with a bulb hanging vertically, the buds on the inside towards the light are bigger than the buds on the outside facing away at the same node.


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## homebrewer (May 12, 2014)

Oscar, are you 'lollipopping' one group and not the other? In post #140 it looks like the plants in IMG 0030 need the same amount of lower pruning as the plants in picture 0028.


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Sorry you seem to be getting a lot of questions at the moment but I have one for you, if you have a moment to answer it.
> 
> My question is can light have an effect on apical dominance?
> 
> The reason for my asking is that when I've grown with plants placed in a circle with a bulb hanging vertically, the buds on the inside towards the light are bigger than the buds on the outside facing away at the same node.


The response is called "phototropism".


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Not trying to be rude, just making a point, a point you don't like so there goes the demonizing drills. Like I said, this is about the 10th defoliation thread I've seen, all based on conjecture and a lack of understanding of what makes a plant tick. The fact that you guys think a budsite needs light to produce confirms my conviction, you don't understand plant processes.
> 
> Question remains and it is a valid one - why don't you yank all of your large fan leaves? I mean isn't that what mother nature does over millenium, evolve into a living system complete with useless plant units?
> 
> UB


Do you read? I have a degree in Botany. I know what makes a plant tick. I said a budsite needs light. I said i like to yank leaves and i wanna know what effect it has on yield, if any. Its my experiment. What do you care? Stay off my thread cuz i am getting pissed. 

Anybody quoting this guy into my thread after i ignore him get ignored too.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Thx but dont everyone start hijacking my thread


Thckingdom said:


> View attachment 3150887 Check it our guys,10 days veg from clone,25 days flower ,just a bit wider then coke can an longer, this is just an experiment for next crop an I think it may have already passed lol African queen


----------



## Thckingdom (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Thx but dont everyone start hijacking my thread


Sorry mate won't happen again buddy,


----------



## bird mcbride (May 12, 2014)

The one thing I don't do is top my cloned budders. I LST first before I resort to pruning fans.
Defoliation really depends on style and grow circumstances.
IMO in week 4-8 it is ok to lose some fans off the main stalk if the grow space is too congested. The leaves below a dense canopy will die anyway.
Don't overprune either, especially late in the grow because it could promote more eye leaf growth.
The fact is mj is a very hardy plant if in the correct enviroment. In the past I have taken in stripped homegrown stalks(1980's) pulled by the roots and produced nice bud with them.
The early eighties sucked, in Canada.
12/12d was the best discovery since the wheel


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

I thinkbyou may be right. We will see.


Sparkticus said:


> Healthy plants will produce more foliage than they need, to compensate for natural defoliation (weather, pests etc.). So when we care for plants indoors and remove those factors, there is a good possibility the plant has more leaves than it needs to function at it's maximum. Some leaves can go and have no effect on the plant's functions... it's a natural defense mechanism for the plant. However, unless those leaves are unhealthy and draining energy to stay alive (which is usually a mistake on our parts via feeding or whatever), I don't think their existence (even if shading sites) will negatively affect flower growth. Some indoor growers I respect and who consistently get huge yields, don't yank anything but they also have extremely healthy plants start to finish. Since all their leaves are green and happy, the leaves are strictly producing energy, not taking any away. That's their logic anyway and I tend to agree based on looking at their bushes, haha.
> 
> If the plants stay FREE OF DEFICIENCIES and such my prediction would be : The yields will be relatively close. Some defoliation of healthy leaves is natural and will have little effect on yields. Too much defoliation will lower yields... I think we can all agree plants need some amount of leaves to be healthy, lol (which brings up a good question, how much defoliation is too much?). If the untouched plants are healthy throughout, they will produce as much as defoliated plants, even in shaded sites. This is an educated guess at best and if I'm completely wrong, I'm okay with that.... I learned something. *This guess isn't really based on a scrog which may very well need to be defoliated up to the screen to be as effective by design.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Does mother nature provide plants w bottled food? Does mother nature shine sun 18 hours one day then the next day only 12? Does mother nature do any of the unnatural shit indoor growers do? Nah. She doesnt. 

I am growing plants in a fucking lab, man. Accept it. 



Uncle Ben said:


> Not trying to be rude, just making a point, a point you don't like so there goes the demonizing drills. Like I said, this is about the 10th defoliation thread I've seen, all based on conjecture and a lack of understanding of what makes a plant tick. The fact that you guys think a budsite needs light to produce confirms my conviction, you don't understand plant processes.
> 
> Question remains and it is a valid one - why don't you yank all of your large fan leaves? I mean isn't that what mother nature does over millenium, evolve into a living system complete with useless plant units?
> 
> UB


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## neo12345 (May 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> The response is called "phototropism".


*'Phototropism* is the growth of organisms in response to light. It is most often observed in plants, but can also occur in other organisms such as fungi. The growth or movement of a plant part in response to a source of light. The cells on the plant that are farthest from the light have a chemical called auxin that reacts when phototropism occurs. This causes the plant to have elongated cells on the farthest side from the light. Phototropism is one of the many plant tropisms or movements which respond to external stimuli. Growth towards a light source is called positive phototropism, while growth away from light is called negative phototropism.'

'There are several signaling molecules that help the plant determine where the light source is, and this activates several genes, which change the hormone gradients allowing the plant to grow towards the light. The very tip of the plant known as the coleoptile is necessary in light sensing.' 

*Wikipedia.*

That makes perfect sense to me, the buds closer to the light are growing bigger because they are stimulated by the light. Where as the opposite branch is not growing as much because it's not receiving as much light.

So this is where the confusion comes in because phototropism says that by getting more light to those budsites will produce bigger buds, but you're saying that this is not correct and getting more light to the budsites will not produce more bud.

If this is a common newbie misconception then where are we going wrong with it, what are we not taking into account? Thanks for taking the time to reply.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Im doing an empirically controlled scientific experiment and i will repeat it in triplicate.


Uncle Ben said:


> And so does that monkey painting my garage wall.
> 
> Look, that is NOT an empirically controlled scientific experiment performed in triplicate by a non-partisan, independent lab. It is another push for some "growing secret", a come-on to a sales pitch for an expensive book priced out at $57. Go head, place it in your cart.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

miccyj said:


> UB, I do yank all my large fans...Have you actually performed any experimentation in regards to this subject or are you simply saying it shouldn't work, so therefore it won't? You know that we once thought the world was flat and that the earth was the centre of the universe.


He has not and will not. I kinda hope the defol table smokes table B just to slow his roll.


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## bird mcbride (May 12, 2014)

I have noticed that budsites that don't get direct light do not develop as well as a bud site that does recieve direct light.
This is why I LST and possible have to thin a bit.
I like to get as many budsites in the light without compromising too much of the canopy.
A 1kw hps cannot compare to the sun. The guy with the great outdoor garden doesn't apply.


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## neo12345 (May 12, 2014)

How come you are so grouchy today Oscar? lol


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

*stoner with a cell phone and a grow tent? have you seen my grow? it's a twenty thousand dollar lab! did you even read the initial post? Also, you don't need a PhD to do research but I am in the process of getting mine anyway. The strict lab conditions are outlined in my initial post. Both tables are subject to the same 'strictest of laboratory conditions'. The only variable is defoliation. This is a valid experiment. 

I'm getting a little tired of you lording your PhD over me and putting my shit down. You've called me a stoner with a grow tent that doesn't understand plant functions. Apparently you just want to be better than the rest of us without actually reading anything or being open-minded. *


"I wish him well, but the "results" are meaningless to me. I'm a professional and I will ONLY embrace actual, scientific field tests. -"

*UB must be the only person on RIU capable of doing an experiment. We should all bow down and use his outdoor methods indoors. (eyeroll)

I am a professional grower and a professional Botanist. An experiment is nothing more than a set of variables that are controlled (the same in both groups) while the tested variable varies so that one can test a hypothesis. 
UB you are on my ignore list. anybody who quotes this arrogant fuck into my thread gets ignored too. 
NO TROLLISM, TROLLING IS STRICTLY FORBIDDEN*


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

homebrewer said:


> Oscar, are you 'lollipopping' one group and not the other? In post #140 it looks like the plants in IMG 0030 need the same amount of lower pruning as the plants in picture 0028.


I posted pics to show that both tables were lollipopped below the scrog.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> How come you are so grouchy today Oscar? lol


fuck that guy


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## homebrewer (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I posted pics to show that both tables were lollipopped below the scrog.


Were those pictures in post 140 because it *looks* like your non-defoliated tray needs some more pruning down low.


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## Sativied (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Do you read? I have a degree in Botany. I know what makes a plant tick. I said a budsite needs light. I said i like to yank leaves and i wanna know what effect it has on yield, if any. Its my experiment. What do you care? Stay off my thread cuz i am getting pissed.
> 
> *Anybody quoting this guy into my thread after i ignore him get ignored too.*


 that's undoubtedly the most pathetic attempt I've seen to get someone posting facts rather than fiction excluded from a defoliation thread. Nobody gives a fuck about whether you ignore them or not. 



OscarLaGrouch said:


> I have a degree in Botany.


 If you actually paid attention in class you would have learned that maximum yields come from an optimal balance between sinks and sources and that it's ridiculous to start a test based on the assumption you can improve that sink-source balance by removing leaves (the only sources which I'm sure you know...  While you're pretending to do a valid experiment to get a few more grams of mj, many REAL scientists with a REAL botany degree (amongst others) and years of REAL experience are researching this every single day - optimizing the source-sink balance can potentially prevent the ever increasing food problems for the ever increasing world population.

Removing lower lateral shoots that don't make it to a scrog canopy is not the same as 'lollipopping' or defoliating as commonly promoted by the posers. Perhaps you should get your botanic and stoner terminology straight first.

For those who are interested in the facts, google 'sink source balance defoliate'.

I will be back to shoot holes in your results and provide plenty of reasons why your test is far from meaningful so better ignore me. Just in case:



Uncle Ben said:


> The


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> *'Phototropism* is the growth of organisms in response to light. It is most often observed in plants, but can also occur in other organisms such as fungi. The growth or movement of a plant part in response to a source of light. The cells on the plant that are farthest from the light have a chemical called auxin that reacts when phototropism occurs. This causes the plant to have elongated cells on the farthest side from the light. Phototropism is one of the many plant tropisms or movements which respond to external stimuli. Growth towards a light source is called positive phototropism, while growth away from light is called negative phototropism.'
> 
> 'There are several signaling molecules that help the plant determine where the light source is, and this activates several genes, which change the hormone gradients allowing the plant to grow towards the light. The very tip of the plant known as the coleoptile is necessary in light sensing.'
> 
> ...


phototropism or heliotropism is the effect of hormones within the branch or stem of the plant. all it does is elongate one side of the stem so that the plant grows towards the sun or the bulb. all the branches do this and its why the leaves flatten out and maximize their surface area toward the light.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

ok fuck this. I don't need it. 

cya THREAD CLOSED


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## neo12345 (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> f that guy


That's not very scientific!! lol

You can't really ask for no trolling and then flame up at people yourself, as you end up losing credibility. You've stuck your head well and truly above the parapet by starting a thread about defoliation, so you've got to expect a bit of flack!


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## Sativied (May 12, 2014)

*IGNORANCE*
_Ignorance is a state of being uninformed._ The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person _in the state of being unaware_ and is often used as an insult to describe *individuals who* *deliberately ignore* or disregard important information or *facts*. src: Wikipedia


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> That's not very scientific!! lol
> 
> You can't really ask for no trolling and then flame up at people yourself, as you end up losing credibility. You've stuck your head well and truly above the parapet by starting a thread about defoliation, so you've got to expect a bit of flack!


dude I don't need the stress of total strangers talking shit to me just because they can. if anyone want to PM me they can. I will post the results at the end and that's it.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

ok it's called mainlining. my bad.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> That's not very scientific!! lol
> 
> You can't really ask for no trolling and then flame up at people yourself, as you end up losing credibility. You've stuck your head well and truly above the parapet by starting a thread about defoliation, so you've got to expect a bit of flack!


if you read he entire thread, I gave UB credit and said he may be right but the only person affected by the outcome is me. I tolerated his condescending attitude as long as I can. i said if he doesn't like my thread he doesn't have to read it. then he posts again and again implying that I don't know anything and he knows everything. I don't need the derision. I got brave enough to post the thread because ppl were saying that they wished someone would do a side by side experiment. I am doing it. I just don't need the bullshit.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

homebrewer said:


> Were those pictures in post 140 because it *looks* like your non-defoliated tray needs some more pruning down low.


A


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

B


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> *IGNORANCE*
> _Ignorance is a state of being uninformed._ The word ignorant is an adjective describing a person _in the state of being unaware_ and is often used as an insult to describe *individuals who* *deliberately ignore* or disregard important information or *facts*. src: Wikipedia


ignorant ppl dont pursue knowledge. they try to shut it down.


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## tortie (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> dude I don't need the stress of total strangers talking shit to me just because they can. if anyone want to PM me they can. I will post the results at the end and that's it.


Im interested with what this test will show. Please do post the results.


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## homebrewer (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> B


I think B looks like it could use some more, just my opinion though. As long as 'structurally' your plants are nearly identical with the only difference being that one group has more leaves than the other, you should be good to go. Good luck if you choose to move forward.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

tortie said:


> Im interested with what this test will show. Please do post the results.


I will. This is a 9 or ten week strain so they will be chopped around fourth of July. I dry as a whole plant, which takes about two weeks. I hope it takes a long time to trim. Once tallied I will post all my data from the grow as well as the results.
if you watch the thread you will get an alert and you can come check it out.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

bird mcbride said:


> The one thing I don't do is top my cloned budders. I LST first before I resort to pruning fans.
> Defoliation really depends on style and grow circumstances.
> IMO in week 4-8 it is ok to lose some fans off the main stalk if the grow space is too congested. The leaves below a dense canopy will die anyway.
> Don't overprune either, especially late in the grow because it could promote more eye leaf growth.
> ...


one of the veteran growers who taught me said that if you remove leaves the plant will direct energy into replacing them, taking away from bud growth. if that's true, table A will have a reduce yield as compared to B. 

I really don't know which way this will go. We will all find out.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

homebrewer said:


> I think B looks like it could use some more, just my opinion though. As long as 'structurally' your plants are nearly identical with the only difference being that one group has more leaves than the other, you should be good to go. Good luck if you choose to move forward.


ok I will take a look. I thought A needed more.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> that's undoubtedly the most pathetic attempt I've seen to get someone posting facts rather than fiction excluded from a defoliation thread. Nobody gives a fuck about whether you ignore them or not.
> 
> If you actually paid attention in class you would have learned that maximum yields come from an optimal balance between sinks and sources and that it's ridiculous to start a test based on the assumption you can improve that sink-source balance by removing leaves (the only sources which I'm sure you know...  While you're pretending to do a valid experiment to get a few more grams of mj, many REAL scientists with a REAL botany degree (amongst others) and years of REAL experience are researching this every single day - optimizing the source-sink balance can potentially prevent the ever increasing food problems for the ever increasing world population.
> 
> ...


We are not talking about FOOD; we are talking about Skywalker OG.
I think the University of California is a REAL university. They are among the best public institutions of higher learning in the world. 
I guess I am not a REAL scientist with a REAL degree. My parents will be so disappointed in me when they find out.


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## MXW3LL (May 12, 2014)

everyone needs to chill until July for results.

SERIOUSLY.


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## MaineMooseRider (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> ok fuck this. I don't need it.
> 
> cya THREAD CLOSED


Sorry to see you have to do this. I have read a lot of post on RIU and it seems like there are a few and their lackies that when they disagree with something they do this never ending crap of trolling. This is why I will never ever start a journal of any kind on this site because I would do the same as you. Get extremely pisses and close it. I am sorry to see this end and I hope you will post results in July. I will keep an eye out for it. Thanks Oscar


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Now, if you'll excuse me, this ignorant non-scientist with a fake degree from a fake university has a lot of leaves to pick up.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)




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## neo12345 (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> if you read he entire thread, I gave UB credit and said he may be right but the only person affected by the outcome is me. I tolerated his condescending attitude as long as I can. i said if he doesn't like my thread he doesn't have to read it. then he posts again and again implying that I don't know anything and he knows everything. I don't need the derision. I got brave enough to post the thread because ppl were saying that they wished someone would do a side by side experiment. I am doing it. I just don't need the bullshit.


I have read the entire thread, I've been here since the start. To be fair I think they have been pretty easy on you so far!!

If UB, Jorge or Sativied want to post the scientific evidence that defoliation decreases yield in cannabis, then they should be allowed to do so as it balances out the argument.

It has to be cannabis specific though otherwise it is pretty meaningless.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> I have read the entire thread, I've been here since the start. To be fair I think they have been pretty easy on you so far!!
> 
> If UB, Jorge or Sativied want to post the scientific evidence that defoliation decreases yield in cannabis, then they should be allowed to do so as it balances out the argument.
> 
> It has to be cannabis specific though otherwise it is pretty meaningless.


Did they? no. they used the word 'ignorant' and other non-scientific terms to describe what is happening here. 
I am open to constructive criticism. That is not what they are offering. 
PASS


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> that's undoubtedly the most pathetic attempt I've seen to get someone posting facts rather than fiction excluded from a defoliation thread. Nobody gives a fuck about whether you ignore them or not.
> 
> If you actually paid attention in class you would have learned that maximum yields come from an optimal balance between sinks and sources and that it's ridiculous to start a test based on the assumption you can improve that sink-source balance by removing leaves (the only sources which I'm sure you know...  While you're pretending to do a valid experiment to get a few more grams of mj, many REAL scientists with a REAL botany degree (amongst others) and years of REAL experience are researching this every single day - optimizing the source-sink balance can potentially prevent the ever increasing food problems for the ever increasing world population.
> 
> ...


I googled it and my thread pops up first. I guess google has anointed me the foremost expert. haha
*Analyzing the significance of defoliation in growth, photosynthetic compensation and source-sink relations*
N. Iqbal, A. Masood, Khan. N.A

Photosynthetica (Impact Factor: 0.86). 03/2012; 50(2):161-170. DOIOI: 10.1007/s11099-012-0029-3
*ABSTRACT* Leaf canopy plays a determining role influencing source-sink relations as any change in source activity (photosynthesis)affects sink metabolism. Defoliation (removal of leaves) influences growth and photosynthetic capacity of plants,remobilizes carbon and nitrogen reserves and accelerates sink metabolism, leading to improved source-sink relations. The response of plants to defoliation could be used to manipulate source-sink relations by removing lower and senescing leaves to obtain greatest photosynthetic capacity and efficient carbon and nitrogen metabolism under optimal and stressful environments. The present work enhances our current understanding on the physiological responses of
plants to defoliation and elaborates how defoliation influences growth, photosynthetic capacity and source-sink relations under optimal and changing environmental conditions


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

*Selective defoliation affects plant growth, fruit transcriptional ripening program and flavonoid metabolism in grapevine.*
Pastore C1, Zenoni S, Fasoli M, Pezzotti M, Tornielli GB, Filippetti I.
*Author information*

*Abstract*
*BACKGROUND:*
The selective removal of grapevine leaves around berry clusters can improve the quality of ripening fruits by influencing parameters such as the berry sugar and anthocyanin content at harvest. The outcome depends strongly on the timing of defoliation, which influences the source-sink balance and the modified microclimate surrounding the berries. We removed the basal leaves from Vitis vinifera L. cv Sangiovese shoots at the pre-bloom and veraison stages, and investigated responses such as shoot growth, fruit morphology and composition compared to untreated controls. Moreover, we performed a genome-wide expression analysis to explore the impact of these defoliation treatments on berry transcriptome.

*RESULTS:*
We found that pre-bloom defoliation improved berry quality traits such as sugar and anthocyanin content, whereas defoliation at veraison had a detrimental effect, e.g. less anthocyanin and higher incidence of sunburn damage. Genome-wide expression analysis during berry ripening revealed that defoliation at either stage resulted in major transcriptome reprogramming, which slightly delayed the onset of ripening. However, a closer investigation of individual gene expression profiles identified genes that were specifically modulated by defoliation at each stage, reflecting the uncoupling of metabolic processes such as flavonoid biosynthesis, cell wall and stress metabolism, from the general ripening program.

*CONCLUSIONS:*
The specific transcriptional modifications we observed following defoliation at different time points allow the identification of the developmental or metabolic processes affected in berries thus deepening the knowledge of the mechanisms by which these agronomical practices impact the final berry ripening traits.

PMID:

23433030

[PubMed - indexed for MEDLIN


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

and from Ed Rosenthal http://mjgrowers.com/book_lets_research.htm

*Research: Trim or Not Trim*

Should Fan Leaves be Trimmed?

There are a number of theories why fan leaves should or should not be removed. The purpose of this paper is to analyze cannabis cultivation techniques that advocate for and against fan leaf removal. A summary of each theory is presented, followed by a review of fan leaf function. The different theories advocating for and against the removal of fan leaves are then discussed in the context of fan lea*f*function and cultivation techniques.

THEORIES WHY TO TRIM FAN LEAVES

Increase Lower Bud Development

The fan leaves shade lower buds and that these buds do not develop to there full potential because of a reduction in lighting intensity due to shading from upper fan leaves.

To conserve energy for upper bud development

Trimming fan leaves and lower, shaded branches focuses the plant?s development on main top buds (Che Bleu, 03.13.2002). A plant wastes precious energy several ways. A tall plant needs to use energy to build extra stem, and then use extra energy to move water up higher, this is why I believe “scrog” methods are productive. An untrimmed bushy plant causes the plant to expend energy to build elaborate branches and leaves, and then has to use excess energy to supply all these structures. Careful trimming to remove unnecessary branches (which wont produce nice buds) and unproductive suckers will leave more energy for a larger yield. Suckers do exactly as their name suggests, they suck needless energy from the plant which can be put to better use, towards yield (Leaf, 03.13.2002).

Reduce the Stretch

If fan leaves are trimmed during the early flowering stage, the stretch is reduced (Che Bleu, 03.13.2002). Reducing the stretch might be advantageous in certain cultivation conditions.

Speeding Up The Flushing Process

Remove some of the fan leaves 14 days before harvest. It helps speed up the flushing process and or makes flushing unnecessary (Homemadepot, 03.13.2002).

Reduce The Chance of Mould

Removal of dead fan leaves is necessary to reduce the risk of mould. Failing to “clear the airway” can lead to development of mould in the “crowded” areas of the plant (Jeast, 03.13.2002).

Scrog growers may also reduce the chance of mould by removing fan leaves due to reduce the level of transpiration. This is because many scrog grows are in a confined space where humidity is a serious problem (DoctorDangerous, 09.04.2002). However with better ventilation it may be necessary to avoid the mould problem (Nietzsche, 09.04.2002).

Increase root development on Clones

Fan leaves on clones should have their blades cut in half, to make the clone grow slowly while a root system develops (Weezil, 03.12.2002).


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

HOW DO FAN LEAVES FUNCTION

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth substances. Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant).

Fan leaves account for the greatest area for the reception of photons on a plant, thus they account for the majority of photosynthesis which occurs within a plant. Cells in the plant’s leaves, called chloroplasts, contain a green pigment called chlorophyll which interacts with sunlight to split the water in the plant into its basic components. Leaves only absorb about 15% of the solar energy that hits them, the other 85% passes through-- but they reflect all the green light, which means it looks darker below the leaf to a human than it does to the plant because our eyes are most sensitive to the green spectrum (Shipperke, 03.15.2002).

Photosynthesis occurs in all green parts of plants. The process has two stages, the light reactions and the Calvin cycle, that convert water and carbon dioxide into sugar and oxygen. These sugars are later used to power all the processes in the plant, including the synthesis of THC and other cannabinoids (Shipperke, 04.02.2002; Ca, 03.13.2002). Fan leaves possess the greatest number of stomata, which are small pores or valves on the underside of the leaf which water vapor and carbon dioxide diffuse during transpiration and photosynthesis (carbon fixation). Carbon dioxide first enters the leaf through the stomata and combines with the stored energy in the chloroplasts through a chemical reaction (the Calvin cycle) to produce a simple sugar. This sugar is unloaded into the tissues and transported through tubes in the leaf to supply the synthesized food to other plant parts such as growing or respiring tissues like young leaves, roots, and flowers of the plant. meristems (UK Tricky Knome, 03.14.2002).

Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ?toxins? with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.

There is a relationship regarding the amount of carbohydrates a leaf produces and CO2 intake relative to outside forces. When you have a situation whereby the leaf is no longer productive for the plant for whatever reason that may be - low light, old age, disease, insect attack etc, the plant will discard it. (Thunderbunny as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002.

Plants have two different kinds of vessels in their stems to move stuff around, xylem and phloem. Xylem runs from the roots up the stem carrying water and nutrients. Phloem runs both up and down to move sugars hormones, proteins, etc but mostly sugars. Each part of the plant can be either a sugar source or a sugar sink (Shipperke, 03.15.2002). Phloem moves from sources (areas of supply) to sinks (areas of metabolism or storage). Granted that the flowers can produce some photosynthate, but they are no where near as effective as fan leaves (resin glands significantly reduce light to the tissue they are found on). Flowers are sink tissues, leaves are source tissues. Sinks do not produce enough photosynthate, and are importers. Sources give photosynthate to sinks in closest proximity. Upper leaves bring sucrose to shoot apical meristem and young leaves while lower leaves bring goodies to roots (UK Tricky Knome, 03.17.2002). Remove the source and the sink will be affected (Diels Alder, 03.15.2002).

The leaves at the top of a plant tend to supply the top growing shoots. The leaves at the bottom of the plant tend to supply the roots. The middle leaves can go either way as the demand changes. During flowering and fruiting, only the very bottom leaves supply the roots and the rest of the leaves try to get as much energy as possible to the flowers of fruits. For this reason, the more leaves are unshaded and in good light, the more chance the plant has of creating extra storage of energy that will ultimately go into yield (Leaf, 03.13.2002). However Jeast (03.13.02) believes that the rich green leaves emerging from the bud are a sufficient energy source of solar energy for the plant’s floral development. Therefore the old fan leaves are once again rendered useless and only drain energy from the developing part of the plant (Jeast, 03.13.02).

Fan leaves store mobile nutrients, these stored nutrients are essential in the later stages of flowering. When flushing a plant the fan leaves will lose their color quickly. This is because the nutrients are being mobilized to the atypical meristem (grow tip, bud site). Draining your fan leaves with a flushing period will increase floral development (Ca, 13.03.2002). Fan leaves therefore serve as a nutrient deficiency buffer zone for the plant (Higstar, 03.13.2002).

Nutrient burn usually causes bottom leaves begin to die however DaGnome (03.15.2002) observed that if you do not remove the leaves then they will absorb damage as premature removal generally results in more leaf loss. However if growing hydroponically under ideal conditions it could be argued that fan leaves serve as a nutrient buffer is a moot point.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

WHEN AND WHAT TO TRIM IF AT ALL

To trim or not to trim that is the question. Try everything for yourself. Try it all ways. (The Crazy Composer, 13.03.2002). Simply put there is no universal answer it depends on how your are growing when where and what you trim (Cardboardbill, 03.13.2002)

Genetic Variance

Cannabis phenotypes play a large part. A strain with very few leaves and long internodes will need a lot less trimming - if a trimming technique is even adopted. A strain with a surplus of leaves and short internodes would require more thinning to get the same amount of light to the lower buds (The Crazy Composer, 13.03.2002). Cannabis varieties from high sunshine equatorial areas like thai sativa have thin leaves most likely due to more light than say a indicia plant from afghan regions have wider fan leaves due to less light intensity in their natural environment (Lebman, 03.20.2002).

Remove non productive ?dead? leaf material

Here are some signs to look for when removing foliage. Leaves that have reached their final size and are ageing will stop producing chlorophyll and start changing to a lighter color, often yellowing and showing purple petioles (leaf stems). This is when the leaves’ capacity to produce sugars starts to diminish, so they are the ones to take out of the way to allow Sunlight to fall on the younger leaves that are producing at a higher rate. The older leaves, even though larger, are no longer very productive once they are not dark green anymore. By the time they start looking pale or discolored, they are not contributing anything to the plant at all. Obviously, the lower leaves are the oldest and the first to age. Old leaves can be removed at any time they are shading younger ones, but try to never remove a leaf in its expanding stage because it is producing at full power (Leaf, 03.13.2002.

Outdoors, fan leaves serve an additional and very important purpose of protecting the buds from the elements and predators. These leaves often become damaged in the course of doing their duty, and will then wither or break off (Jeast, 03.13.02). However depending on the humidity of the growing climate Leaf (03.13.2002) suggests to trim most leaves that show signs of age, are dull in color, yellowing, and obviously any brown or spotted leaves that have bugs or bug damage to prevent mould.

To Increase Lower Bud Development

Light efficiency decreases with distance. The inverse squared light rule states that illuminance is inversely proportionate to the square of the distance from the light source.

Removing the largest area of photosynthesis that is closest to the light source simply to benefit smaller leaves growing out of the but sites that are further away is not logical when growing indoors”(Smokinrav, 03.15.2002). Cultivating outdoors under the sun, the fan leaves don’t create nearly as much shade as they do indoors (~shabang~, 03.13.2002). This is consistent with the inverse squared light rule; the sun is 149,597,890 km away so a few feet has no real effect on intensity. This suggests that a trimming benefit could be achieved outdoors as opposed to indoors however leaves only absorb about 15% of the solar energy that hits them, the other 85% passes through except for green light which is reflected, therefore removal of fan leaves would only provide a 15% increase light transmission outdoors (Shipperke, 03.15.2002).

Jeast (03.12.2002) removes fan leaves that are yellowing or starting to yellow (these are usually on the lower stems) and also mid-stem fan leaves that are shading buds. He always try to retain the upper 2 - 3 sets of fan leaves indoors as he believe they are the ones that are truly “working”. The concept of the upper fan leaves doing all the work is consistent with effect of the inverse square rule on lighting intensity indoors and the flow on effect for photosynthesis. In support for trimming HyGradeChronic (03.25.2002) states selective trimming benefits lower floral development, allowing the buds to fill out and tighten up better. However he does mention that humidity must be kept to a minimum as leftover stems from the leaf can develop mould unless kept at optimum humidity. Another flow on effect to leaf trimming mentioned by HydradeChronic is that it takes seven to ten days longer for floral development to finish, but the resulting florescence is at it?s peak from top to bottom.

An alternative to trimming to increase light to lower floral clusters is to use a light mover on a single plant the results are better thanks to the better penetration of light at different angles. Even simple under lighting and side lighting works well to counter fan leaves by adding extra light where it would not normally get (Vapour, 03/13.2002).

Increase upper bud development

What folks need to focus on is the causes of premature leaf drop as that negatively affects yields. If you’ve read my posts over the years, I try to pound that issue home whenever given a chance. After a good root development, the most important element in floral production is the retention of healthy leaves (Thunderbunny as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002).

Green Reaper (03.12.2002) suggests that large leaves actually take more energy to maintain than they produce. In contrast Thunderbunny (as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002) states that when a leaf no longer serves a productive purpose, the plant will remove the leftover metabolites from the leaf, which causes the old spotty, yellowing, necrotic image and then the leaf drops. Once that leaf is gone, a percentage of what would be available carbohydrates for future plant growth is diminished in direct relationship to the loss. The mobility of plants sugars and nutrients suggests that fully developed fan leaves are sources not sinks. Whether developing fan leaves are a sink or a source however is not as clear. An actively growing leaf may be a sink, using energy from the other parts of the plant to fuel their development (George, 03.20.2002). Older developed leaves and that are sources. However there is no evidence to support that during the plants life cycle the development of fan leaves takes more energy then a fully developed fan leave provides, that is to say sink phase is greater than the source phase (Nietzsche). It would also seem illogical from an evolutionary point of view that a plant would evolve to produce leaves that take more energy to sustain then they produce (~shabang~, 03.13.2002).

Trim fan leaves in the last 14 days to help speed up flushing

It helps speed up the flushing process and or makes flushing unnecessary (Homemadepot, 03.13.2002). However the leaves should naturally yellow, too much green in the leaves translates to too much “green” taste in the leaves in my opinion (Bigislandbud, 03.14.2002).

Reducing the Stretch

If trimming fan leaves reduced the stretch it is likely that this occurred because it takes away from the plant’s available energy stores and energy generators (~Shabang~, 03.13.2002). This method of reducing the stretch should only be used if absolutely necessary, other options include chemical treatment may be a more viable option.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

HOW TO TRIM IF YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO

If you decide to trim your fan leaves, one should always do it by clipping the petiole about halfway between the base of the *fan leaf* and the stem/branch. Allow the remainder of the petiole to dry up and fall off on its own. This will help protect the plant from risks of infections. They should never be stripped or broken off at the base of the petiole as that would be expose more chance of infecting the plant. Petiole is the he foot stalk of a leaf (10k, 03.16.2002)

Leaf (03.13.2002) believes that excessive leaf trimming and branch pruning will cause the plant to use extra energy to repair itself. However, trimming must be done from time to time, for the longer a plant is left untrimmed, the more material must be removed at one time, therefore the greater the damage that the plant will need to repair. Do not trim *fan leave*s during veg either, unless they turn yellow. The first real pruning starts when going into 12/12 (Jeast, 03.13.2002). When trimming and pruning, I try to ensure that I do not cause the plant to ‘bleed’. Leaf tries to pinch off shoots and leaves with my fingernails as opposed to leaving a clean cut. One thing to remember is every time you cut into any part of a plant, you are exposing the inside of the plant to fungus and bacteria (Leaf, 03.13.2002).

Tuck instead of trimming

Another method is to tuck your fans leaves under to expose the buds, don’t forget that even though they wont be getting as much light they are still photosynthesizing and more importantly exchanging gases storing nutrients, and building sugars which the bud then converts into THC and other cannibinoids (Ca, 13.03.2002)

This Synopsis paper, is a consensus of opinions compiled in the Overgrow Growing Consensus forum. Compiled and written by Nietzsche, originally posted 4/20/2002. 022006

Read More


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

this is what I was concerned about:

Removal of fan leaves will not only slow growth, but it will also hinder the plants ability to rid itself of toxic gases, and also hinder the regulation of the plants temperature via stomata. Changes in the plants chemical metabolism caused by fan leave removal causes the plant to work overtime to rid ?toxins? with less leaves, as a result the pant may allocate more growth hormones into growing more leaves to make up for what has been lost(Equator, 03.15.2002). Removing large amounts of fan leaves may also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic imbalance.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Sativied said:


> that's undoubtedly the most pathetic attempt I've seen to get someone posting facts rather than fiction excluded from a defoliation thread. Nobody gives a fuck about whether you ignore them or not.
> 
> If you actually paid attention in class you would have learned that maximum yields come from an optimal balance between sinks and sources and that it's ridiculous to start a test based on the assumption you can improve that sink-source balance by removing leaves (the only sources which I'm sure you know...  While you're pretending to do a valid experiment to get a few more grams of mj, many REAL scientists with a REAL botany degree (amongst others) and years of REAL experience are researching this every single day - optimizing the source-sink balance can potentially prevent the ever increasing food problems for the ever increasing world population.
> 
> ...


so far the only facts you have posted are:
leaves are sources
pruning is not lollipopping

sorry if I am underwhelmed


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Green Reaper (03.12.2002) suggests that large leaves actually take more energy to maintain than they produce. In contrast Thunderbunny (as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002) states that when a leaf no longer serves a productive purpose, the plant will remove the leftover metabolites from the leaf, which causes the old spotty, yellowing, necrotic image and then the leaf drops. Once that leaf is gone, a percentage of what would be available carbohydrates for future plant growth is diminished in direct relationship to the loss. The mobility of plants sugars and nutrients suggests that fully developed fan leaves are sources not sinks. Whether developing fan leaves are a sink or a source however is not as clear. An actively growing leaf may be a sink, using energy from the other parts of the plant to fuel their development (George, 03.20.2002). Older developed leaves and that are sources. However there is no evidence to support that during the plants life cycle the development of fan leaves takes more energy then a fully developed fan leave provides, that is to say sink phase is greater than the source phase (Nietzsche). It would also seem illogical from an evolutionary point of view that a plant would evolve to produce leaves that take more energy to sustain then they produce (~shabang~, 03.13.2002).

sounds like removing necrotic leaves that are unproductive is the only defol Ed believes in. it makes sense.


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> That makes perfect sense to me, the buds closer to the light are growing bigger because they are stimulated by the light. Where as the opposite branch is not growing as much because it's not receiving as much light.
> 
> So this is where the confusion comes in because phototropism says that by getting more light to those budsites will produce bigger buds, but you're saying that this is not correct and getting more light to the budsites will not produce more bud.


Need personal observation to confirm your observation. All of my outdoor grows are such that top to bottom all budsites get the same amount of daily photons. The lower buds are still popcorn.


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

Sheesh, I've probably posted the same old stuff a dozen times. Here's another one of them, a conversation I had with Thunderbunny (whoever he was) 15 years ago.

_ In his book "marijuana botany" Robert Connell Clarke states that:

Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug cannabis cultivation.

He states that there are 3 common beliefs:

1.) Large shade leaves draw energy from the flowering plant and by removing the large fan leaves
surplus energy will be available and larger floral clusters will be formed

2.) Some feel that the inhibitors of flowering , synthesized in the fan leaves during the long
non-inductive days of summer, may be stored in the older leaves that were formed during the
non-inductive photoperiod. Possibly, if these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will
proceed to flower more quickly when the shorter days of fall trigger flowering

3.) Large fan leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small, atrophied, interior floral clusters
may begin to develop if they receive less light.

Few, if any, of the theories behind leafing have any validity. 

The large fan leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of cannabis. Large
leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth
substances.They do create shade, but at the same time thay are collecting valuable solar energy and
producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant. _

_Premature removal of the fan leaves may cause stunting because the potential for photosynthesis is
reduced.

Most cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage and this
trend continues on until senescence (death of the plant). He also states that removing large amounts of fan leaves will also interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. Leaf removal may also cause SEX REVERSAL resulting from a metabolic imbalance

he goes on to say that cannabis grows largest when provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and
water, and left alone to grow and mature naturally. It must be remembered that any alteration of the
natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity.

This book has served me very well in my 12+ years of growing--I would have to side with RC on
this one--those sunleaves are there for a reason--they don't grow just for show--leave them on
there and let that plant grow naturally

Good Luck

Thunderbunny _

Like I said (in a dozen defoliation threads).... with every new crop of newbies....


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## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> *Selective defoliation affects plant growth, fruit transcriptional ripening program and flavonoid metabolism in grapevine.*
> Pastore C1, Zenoni S, Fasoli M, Pezzotti M, Tornielli GB, Filippetti I.
> *Author information*
> 
> ...


Apples and oranges, not related to this discussion, unless you're after buds that have more sugar and want more pigment in your Blueberry skins.


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Green Reaper (03.12.2002) suggests that large leaves actually take more energy to maintain than they produce. In contrast Thunderbunny (as citied, by Nietzsche, 03.13.2002) states that when a leaf no longer serves a productive purpose, the plant will remove the leftover metabolites from the leaf, which causes the old spotty, yellowing, necrotic image and then the leaf drops. Once that leaf is gone, a percentage of what would be available carbohydrates for future plant growth is diminished in direct relationship to the loss. The mobility of plants sugars and nutrients suggests that fully developed fan leaves are sources not sinks. Whether developing fan leaves are a sink or a source however is not as clear. An actively growing leaf may be a sink, using energy from the other parts of the plant to fuel their development (George, 03.20.2002). Older developed leaves and that are sources. However there is no evidence to support that during the plants life cycle the development of fan leaves takes more energy then a fully developed fan leave provides, that is to say sink phase is greater than the source phase (Nietzsche). It would also seem illogical from an evolutionary point of view that a plant would evolve to produce leaves that take more energy to sustain then they produce (~shabang~, 03.13.2002).
> 
> sounds like removing necrotic leaves that are unproductive is the only defol Ed believes in. it makes sense.


All of the stoners you referenced are NOT scientists. They were members of a few sites the old timers (that would include me) posted at 12 years or so ago. Shabang was the admin of OG, 10K was a senior mod that published my Griffin's Spin-Out article, etc.

RC Clarke was a true scientist, a botanist. He is bonafide.

UB


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## Growan (May 12, 2014)

This is like the best defoliation thread yet. I'll refrain from Haiku....


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## Izoc666 (May 12, 2014)

Oscar, with all respect, I've seen this repeated threads before and it's always doomed. The simple way to get big bud is K.I.S.S. like to keep all leaves and keep 'em greener will lead to your prize is biggest, fattest, and juiciest buds !

I sincerely like Uncle Ben's work and best farmer as well.

By all means, keep document about defoliation and next time, try to approach the K.I.S.S. style. Of course with open mind


----------



## chuck estevez (May 12, 2014)

Growan said:


> This is like the best defoliation thread yet. I'll refrain from Haiku....


please make a haiku about hanging a bulb and then not being smart enough to turn the plant and wonder why the buds grow different on the other side of the plant.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Thanks. 

I started down this road due to an overpacked canopy that resulted in atrophied buds in the interior. I do believe in having an open mind and KISS. I just like to defol and wanted to quantify it. I thought ppl would appreciate the effort. Some did. Some didnt. 
All the threads ppl say exist werent definitive for me. I just want to experiment for myself. What i dont want is a bunch of BS. If someone dont like my thread? KISS and Dont read it. 
Im all for constructive criticism, frank discussion or respectful advice but condescending dismissive arrogance aint my cup o tea.


Izoc666 said:


> Oscar, with all respect, I've seen this repeated threads before and it's always doomed. The simple way to get big bud is K.I.S.S. like to keep all leaves and keep 'em greener will lead to your prize is biggest, fattest, and juiciest buds !
> 
> I sincerely like Uncle Ben's work and best farmer as well.
> 
> By all means, keep document about defoliation and next time, try to approach the K.I.S.S. style. Of course with open mind


----------



## Hydroburn (May 12, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> _he goes on to say that _*cannabis grows largest when*_ provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and
> water, and _*left alone to grow and mature naturally*_. It must be remembered that any alteration of the
> natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity._


This is such nonsense that whoever you are quoting has zero credibility.


----------



## ProHuman (May 12, 2014)

I have been pruning my plants for years.
I never knew what exactly it was called that I was doing. 'Lollipopping' or 'Defoliating'.
Hell, Before this site, I thought my 'super cropping' was the 'LST'. I thought I was just training my plants. Managing the bud filled canopy is the main idea.
I look at my plant, and take off any shoots that will produce well, then I will take a few leaves off of the bottom. Those leaves die off early, anyway, and It makes watering easier, not to mention air circulation better under the canopy. At the canopy, I tuck a lot of leaves under the buds.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> This is such nonsense that whoever you are quoting has zero credibility.


who are you talking about?


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Hydroburn said:


> This is such nonsense that whoever you are quoting has zero credibility.


the most recent stuff I posted was from Ed Rosenthal. even that wasn't coming down on one side or the other


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

ProHuman said:


> I have been pruning my plants for years.
> I never knew what exactly it was called that I was doing. 'Lollipopping' or 'Defoliating'.
> Hell, Before this site, I thought my 'super cropping' was the 'LST'. I thought I was just training my plants. Managing the bud filled canopy is the main idea.
> I look at my plant, and take off any shoots that will produce well, then I will take a few leaves off of the bottom. Those leaves die off early, anyway, and It makes watering easier, not to mention air circulation better under the canopy. At the canopy, I tuck a lot of leaves under the buds.


I'm all for a low stress situation for the plants. I am. I'm just gonna go with the one round of defoliation on day 15 and try to keep all the leaves green. So far they look great and are stretching nicely. I'll only pull off any senescent, necrotic or super crowded leaves on both trays. I hope everyone is happy with that.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

DAY 16
A first 
B second


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

B


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

and a nice Sativa with absolutely no leaf yanking at all


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## Thckingdom (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> fuck that guy


Hey mate very interested in your final result to your tests you are doing as could be beneficial to me an other keep up the good work,if I'm annoying you in anyway let me know


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> Hey mate very interested in your final result to your tests you are doing as could be beneficial to me an other keep up the good work,if I'm annoying you in anyway let me know


Ypure being totally cool. Its those other guys...


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## natro.hydro (May 12, 2014)

[URL='https://www.rollitup.org/members/hydroburn.740159/' said:


> Hydroburn[/URL]]This is such nonsense that whoever you are quoting has zero credibility.


You are pretty misguided in saying this, he quoted someone who quoted Robert Connell Clarke, dude is like the authority on cannabis. He just finished compiling his ethnobotany book, I only read the free sample on kindle (100+pages of cannbis reading for anyone interested) and all I can say is wow. He has dedicated his life to learning everything he can about marijuana. While the book is largely talking about outdoor cultivation by and large it applies to indoor and is one of the must reads for anyone looking to call themselves a ganja connoisseur imo. I do not practice everything he preaches but every grower does shit there own way, but mostly just tweeks to basic horticultural practices.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

natro.hydro said:


> You are pretty misguided in saying this, he quoted someone who quoted Robert Connell Clarke, dude is like the authority on cannabis. He just finished compiling his ethnobotany book, I only read the free sample on kindle (100+pages of cannbis reading for anyone interested) and all I can say is wow. He has dedicated his life to learning everything he can about marijuana. While the book is largely talking about outdoor cultivation by and large it applies to indoor and is one of the must reads for anyone looking to call themselves a ganja connoisseur imo. I do not practice everything he preaches but every grower does shit there own way, but mostly just tweeks to basic horticultural practices.


I am always up to learn more.


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## natro.hydro (May 12, 2014)

Check that book out, the intro is a little shaky because it is all just speculation of when man and marijuana's relationship began. But non the less it does tie into their theory of the evolution of marijuana which really when you get down to it, what hard science did not start out as some sort of speculation.
*clarification I was referencing his recent book on the ethnobotany of marijuana, not his book advance marijuana cultivation that he wrote in the 80's that I was referring to in my last post


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## homebrewer (May 12, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> and a nice Sativa with absolutely no leaf yanking at all


What strain is that? I'm a sativa guy myself:


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Sounds interesting. I am very interested in anything evolution related. And combined w cannabis, i will def check it out. Thx for the headsup.


natro.hydro said:


> Check that book out, the intro is a little shaky because it is all just speculation of when man and marijuana's relationship began. But non the less it does tie into their theory of the evolution of marijuana which really when you get down to it, what hard science did not start out as some sort of speculation.
> *clarification I was referencing his recent book on the ethnobotany of marijuana, not his book advance marijuana cultivation that he wrote in the 80's that I was referring to in my last post


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Its called blue drag0n. I think they said it was ak47 and blueberry. Smells incredible even in veg.


homebrewer said:


> What strain is that? I'm a sativa guy myself:


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

open your quote. I accidentally put this pics within it.


homebrewer said:


> What strain is that? I'm a sativa guy myself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

homebrewer said:


> What strain is that? I'm a sativa guy myself:


yours looks a lot like mine right now. I am flowering out my moms. this pic is from last run with HPS lighting so you can't see the pale green leaves and the blueish colas. touching it makes me smell my fingers like that character from SNL.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)




----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 12, 2014)

Izoc666 said:


> Oscar, with all respect, I've seen this repeated threads before and it's always doomed. The simple way to get big bud is K.I.S.S. like to keep all leaves and keep 'em greener will lead to your prize is biggest, fattest, and juiciest buds !
> 
> I sincerely like Uncle Ben's work and best farmer as well.
> 
> By all means, keep document about defoliation and next time, try to approach the K.I.S.S. style. Of course with open mind


*is 5g big enough?*


----------



## Growan (May 12, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> please make a haiku about hanging a bulb and then not being smart enough to turn the plant and wonder why the buds grow different on the other side of the plant.


So I hung my bulb.
The plant stood stock still, unturned.
That didn't work...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Growan said:


> So I hung my bulb.
> The plant stood stock still, unturned.
> That didn't work...


5/7/5?


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> *is 5g big enough?*View attachment 3151700[/QUOTE Yummy Oscar ,$100 for 5grams in New Zealand $450oz an $6400 lbs but


----------



## Growan (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> 5/7/5?


Main article: On (Japanese prosody)
In comparison to English verse typically characterized by syllabic meter, Japanese verse counts sound units known as "on" or morae. Traditional haiku consist of 17 on, in three phrases of five, seven and five on respectively. Among contemporary poems teikei (定型 fixed form) haiku continue to use the 5-7-5 pattern while jiyuritsu (自由律 free form) haiku do not.[citation needed] One of the examples below illustrates that traditional haiku masters were not always constrained by the 5-7-5 pattern.


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## Growan (May 13, 2014)

So, yeah . I digress. No more ot rubbish from me. Promise


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

damn and I had a whole bag of em too


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Growan said:


> So, yeah . I digress. No more ot rubbish from me. Promise


yeah well I'm a fuckin haiku master and I want five syllables in my haiku, not four
and five gram nugs all day every day, a whole bag of em


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

(ahem)


_growan drafts poem
while deeply touched, i no cry
four words not enough_


----------



## Growan (May 13, 2014)

F


OscarLaGrouch said:


> (ahem)
> 
> 
> _growan drafts poem
> ...


Four words are enough,
But only if you can count
All the syllables.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

_i grow five gram buds
one pound purely primo stuff
this round just the same_


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

_I once grew White Fire
untamed the girls crowded up
now I pull some leaves_


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

heres another Blue Drag0n 5g nug


----------



## Growan (May 13, 2014)

Beautiful. 


OscarLaGrouch said:


> _i grow five gram buds
> one pound purely primo stuff
> this round just the same_


Just sublime...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

_[golf clap]_


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> View attachment 3151756 aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand some more View attachment 3151756





OscarLaGrouch said:


> _[golf clap]_


nice pot , I usually get buds 30 to 60grams I promote 16-32 branches lollie them slap 2400w over each pot 56 days later I'm blessed with the fruit of the gods.not to take anything away from your stuff man would love a taste hehehe seeds are so hard to get in NZ as it illegal here


----------



## waterdawg (May 13, 2014)

Wow!!!! Leave for a day and all hell breaks loose lol.  So I'm still waiting for Uncle Ben's response to the question "Why"? Why are you hell bent to get involved in a thread that you feel is a total waste of time? All the guy wanted to do was see for himself what the effects of pulling some leaves off would have on this particular grow and this particular strain. Please, really I'm very interested in why anyone who slammed this would seeings how there was nothing to slam! But could it be that I'm missing something? Is defoilation a goverment plot to slow the growth and in turn amount hitting the street  It was, in my mind, just a lets see what'll happen if I do this and you are all welcome to follow along, "if you like"!! Also Uncle Ben,as you have stated in pasts post, you tired of reading unsubstantiated threads, you decided to try things for yourself. Why now is that wrong for someone else to do? Comparing effects on a plant grown outdoors versus in is just hmmm dare I say uneducated!!! Could you post a few of your pics showing your results re: defoilation, I would love to see them.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Dude stop stirring the pot. 

Right now Buncle En is like a chihuahua barking outside my car while im singing loudly inside w the stereo blasting and the windows rolled up, blowin a pipe...

We're writing poems now. 




waterdawg said:


> Wow!!!! Leave for a day and all hell breaks loose lol.  So I'm still waiting for Uncle Ben's response to the question "Why"? Why are you hell bent to get involved in a thread that you feel is a total waste of time? All the guy wanted to do was see for himself what the effects of pulling some leaves off would have on this particular grow and this particular strain. Please, really I'm very interested in why anyone who slammed this would seeings how there was nothing to slam! But could it be that I'm missing something? Is defoilation a goverment plot to slow the growth and in turn amount hitting the street  It was, in my mind, just a lets see what'll happen if I do this and you are all welcome to follow along, "if you like"!! Also Uncle Ben,as you have stated in pasts post, you tired of reading unsubstantiated threads, you decided to try things for yourself. Why now is that wrong for someone else to do? Comparing effects on a plant grown outdoors versus in is just hmmm dare I say uneducated!!! Could you post a few of your pics showing your results re: defoilation, I would love to see them.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Get some beans from tude sent to a safe place (kanye shrug)


Thckingdom said:


> nice pot , I usually get buds 30 to 60grams I promote 16-32 branches lollie them slap 2400w over each pot 56 days later I'm blessed with the fruit of the gods.not to take anything away from your stuff man would love a taste hehehe seeds are so hard to get in NZ as it illegal here


A single bud or a inflorescence? 60g is a lot


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Get some beans from tude sent to a safe place (kanye shrug)
> A single bud or a inflorescence? 60g is a lot


 single buds yes,the white rhino in my photos will end up around that weight,that is one of 32 on that plant


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Growan said:


> So I hung my bulb.
> The plant stood stock still, unturned.
> That didn't work...


Heyyyyyyyy
Was this about my sativa?
I move those plants daily bruh


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> single buds yes,the white rhino in my photos will end up around that weight,that is one of 32 on that plant


How many elbows you figger?


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> How many elbows you figger?


I'm think around 3lbow maybe I'm in soil on these ones if water 41/2lbow


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## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

Do 


Thckingdom said:


> I'm think around 3lbow maybe I'm in soil on these ones if water 41/2lbow


do you grow medical Oscar ?


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> I'm think around 3lbow maybe I'm in soil on these ones if water 41/2lbow


How big is this bitch?
Did you d fo lee 8 ?


----------



## Hydroburn (May 13, 2014)

natro.hydro said:


> You are pretty misguided in saying this, he quoted someone who quoted Robert Connell Clarke, dude is like the authority on cannabis. He just finished compiling his ethnobotany book, I only read the free sample on kindle (100+pages of cannbis reading for anyone interested) and all I can say is wow. He has dedicated his life to learning everything he can about marijuana. While the book is largely talking about outdoor cultivation by and large it applies to indoor and is one of the must reads for anyone looking to call themselves a ganja connoisseur imo. I do not practice everything he preaches but every grower does shit there own way, but mostly just tweeks to basic horticultural practices.


I don't care who Robert Connell Clarke is, that was a dumb statement. Maybe cannabis grows "largest" - as in "tall as fuck" - when left alone to mother nature... but it certainly doesn't yield more nug that way. Definitely not indoors.


----------



## Hydroburn (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> who are you talking about?


"*cannabis grows largest when*_ provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and
water, and _*left alone to grow and mature naturally*_. It must be remembered that any alteration of the
natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity."_


----------



## Growan (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Heyyyyyyyy
> Was this about my sativa?
> I move those plants daily bruh


Nono, a short piece commissioned by Chuck I think in reference to Neo's post about light penetration. Chuck and Neo are secret BFF's.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> Do
> 
> do you grow medical Oscar ?





Thckingdom said:


> Do
> 
> do you grow medical Oscar ?


Of course. Grew a bubba x master kush pure indica for insomnia. I consume personally to stay calm and reduce stress. Its not healthy for me to have stress. Thats why i cut cancers out of my life like trolls and crazy bitches.
I like the sativa to keep my blood pressure from going up. I could die of it. Not taking any chances. I find almost any cannabis reduces my perception of pain and I have some injuries/pain I'm not wanting to perceive at the moment. 
Collective retained lawyers for everything in advance to make sure we are prop 215 compliant. I also hold sb420 "county card" thru dept of public health.
I got that Cali Connection...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

You bet your ass im gona affect its productivity by altering its lifecycle...


Hydroburn said:


> "*cannabis grows largest when*_ provided with plentiful nutrients, sunlight, and
> water, and _*left alone to grow and mature naturally*_. It must be remembered that any alteration of the
> natural life cycle of cannabis will affect productivity."_


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> How big is this bitch?
> Did you d fo lee 8 ?


2meter square 50-60cm high tied down,always defo ,only difference if not defo or lollipop bud is more smaller buds but similar weight an a bastard to harvest then a defo lollie one


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

everyone in cali that deals with more than a little should have this for their county:
and the dope part is your name appears nowhere on it, just yer mug. they have your info on a govt list (omg)
but this card means cops are civilly liable for everything they do so hopefully they chill out when they see this.


----------



## CaretakerDad (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> single buds yes,the white rhino in my photos will end up around that weight,that is one of 32 on that plant



Pics or it didn't happen


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> 2meter square 50-60cm high tied down,always defo ,only difference if not defo or lollipop bud is more smaller buds but similar weight an a bastard to harvest then a defo lollie one


I mainline (got scolded for calling it lollipopping) because I believe in focusing energy to the growing tips. I credit my 5g nugs to this technique. who wants to trim popcorn? rather make budder or ....


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Of course. Grew a bubba x master kush pure indica for insomnia. I consume personally to stay calm and reduce stress. Its not healthy for me to have stress. Thats why i cut cancers out of my life like trolls and crazy bitches.
> I like the sativa to keep my blood pressure from going up. I could die of it. Not taking any chances.
> Collective retained lawyers for everything in advance to make sure we are prop 215 compliant. I also hold sb420 "county card" thru dept of public health.





CaretakerDad said:


> Pics or it didn't happen


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> View attachment 3151834


 Just some little ones lol


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> View attachment 3151834


ok ok I believe you. niiiiiice!


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> View attachment 3151835 Just some little ones lol


ok so tell me again about your defol method... por favor


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> ok ok I believe you. niiiiiice!





OscarLaGrouch said:


> ok so tell me again about your defol method... por favor


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

blank message
I better get some sleep. I have an early meeting sometime btwn 10-2 LMAO


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

I just do every thing you are doing,but I focus on the inner middle branches more an strip them hardest once a week for first 3weeks after this they will look like the main leaders from then I just remove or snip leaf if it covers bud spot ,


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Dude stop stirring the pot.
> 
> Right now Buncle En is like a chihuahua barking outside my car while im singing loudly inside w the stereo blasting and the windows rolled up, blowin a pipe...
> 
> We're writing poems now.


Uh huh, you're definately a botanist working on a phD.


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> How big is this bitch?
> Did you d fo lee 8 ?


Even writes like a botanist with a phD.


----------



## CaretakerDad (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> View attachment 3151834


Like I said pics or it didn't happen, I see maybe 3/4 oz colas and at best a dozen of them and some smaller ones. Your claim was (32) 30 -60 gram buds. Stop promoting this defoliation nonsense with made up numbers and bullshit science, especially to noobs who love to play with their plants which is all this really is, not botany. And yes like many here on this forum I do have degrees in biology and chemistry and worked for a fully paneled USDA research scientist for 7 years. Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2014)

RC Clark (who exposes the stoner myth of leafing) is THE authority on cannabis culture and breeding. Like Mel Frank, he covers the botanical side of plant genetics and processes. 
http://www.amazon.com/Robert-Connell-Clarke/e/B001KCSHR0


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2014)

For those who just might be interested in the function and importance of leaf retention and whose intent is to promote vigor rather than plant retardation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leaf


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

This isn't the perfect example but I've pruned this a couple a days ago , reducing the plant by 1/3 leaf an clones


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> ... And yes like many here on this forum I do have degrees in biology and chemistry and worked for a fully paneled USDA research scientist for 7 years.


Interesting! Are you familiar with the Keyplex 350 DP product that came out of a big research SAR program commissioned with the USDA? I was recently gifted with 5 gals. of the stuff and am experimenting with it and sharing it with commercial nut/fruit producers and recently sent a sample to a fine greenhouse grower to play with. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may98/prot0598.htm


----------



## CaretakerDad (May 13, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Interesting! Are you familiar with the Keyplex 350 DP product that came out of a big research SAR program commissioned with the USDA? I was recently gifted with 5 gals. of the stuff and am experimenting with it and sharing it with commercial nut/fruit producers and recently sent a sample to a fine greenhouse grower to play with. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may98/prot0598.htm



I actually worked for an entomologist doing pheromone testing in the forests of the Pacific Northwest, did some toad work for another researcher as well. It was one of those jobs where when people saw you catching and PIT tagging toads or setting up 3000M trap arrays in dense forest, they wanted to be you. I also spent a lot of time in very remote locations by myself which was not a bad thing.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Like I said pics or it didn't happen, I see maybe 3/4 oz colas and at best a dozen of them and some smaller ones. Your claim was (32) 30 -60 gram buds. Stop promoting this defoliation nonsense with made up numbers and bullshit science, especially to noobs who love to play with their plants which is all this really is, not botany. And yes like many here on this forum I do have degrees in biology and chemistry and worked for a fully paneled USDA research scientist for 7 years. Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).


Yeah yeah we know. I work in labs too. This is my first trial and i will be replicating it and obviously its getting peer reviewed by a bunch of uninvited blowhards.
Let me know when there is a Journal of Medicinal Cannabis and i will submit some papers. You can light the reprints on fire if ya want.

Your wet blanket is over there. WAY over there someplace far away. Go lay on it.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Biology and chemistry is not botany. I have studied all three.


CaretakerDad said:


> Like I said pics or it didn't happen, I see maybe 3/4 oz colas and at best a dozen of them and some smaller ones. Your claim was (32) 30 -60 gram buds. Stop promoting this defoliation nonsense with made up numbers and bullshit science, especially to noobs who love to play with their plants which is all this really is, not botany. And yes like many here on this forum I do have degrees in biology and chemistry and worked for a fully paneled USDA research scientist for 7 years. Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

If i wanna fuck around with mybplants, whats it to you guys? Your ego just disgusts me. You act like im using your federal grant money to do this. Get over yourselves. You dont like the topic so move on.

Dont go thru life looking for opptys to take offense.


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

S


CaretakerDad said:


> Like I said pics or it didn't happen, I see maybe 3/4 oz colas and at best a dozen of them and some smaller ones. Your claim was (32) 30 -60 gram buds. Stop promoting this defoliation nonsense with made up numbers and bullshit science, especially to noobs who love to play with their plants which is all this really is, not botany. And yes like many here on this forum I do have degrees in biology and chemistry and worked for a fully paneled USDA research scientist for 7 years. Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).


these are 34days old 30 days left so I'd be pretty close an it is the normal for me to reach this been there done that an I'm just talking to Oscar not promoting,each to there own is a better solution not one set mind frame it's just a method I enjoy


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

THC and everyone who liked the OP:
we can all "ignore list" whomever we like and they can't even be quoted into the thread. lets shut out the chatter from the morons that call us noobs. pretty sure they didn't crank out 5g nugs on the reg as newbies.

I hate fuckin chichuahuas. yap and crap.
this is MY DOG:


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> you are worse than anyone here, if you simply ignored anything you choose to not like, it would die right there, but you like the drama and actually create it more for yourself. Did you question everything your professor taught you? Did you tell him, I know you have been teaching this for years and have studied all the scientific data, But I am going to go do it for myself? I am betting you didn't even pull a c+ average.


I had a B average which is pretty good considering the school and the fact that all my study partners are medical doctors and research scientists now.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> S
> these are 34days old 30 days left so I'd be pretty close an it is the normal for me to reach this been there done that an I'm just talking to Oscar not promoting,each to there own is a better solution not one set mind frame it's just a method I enjoy


Weigh it when its done. We will pow wow in july.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> no..... its because uncle ben and his nut suckers show up and start acting like assholes.....


nutsuckers LOL

cleaned the thread right on up. nice. I like the new RIU. used to be you block someone then someone would quote them into the thread and ruin it.

I would like to thank killemsoftly, izoc666, waterdawg, growan, miccyj, dannyboy, a senile fungus, homebrewer, cat of curiosity, natro.hydro, bu$hleaguer and others for participating in the thread and pointing up information without being dismissive pricks. I said in the thread
*I always want to learn more
but if you're hostile and demeaning, I don't wanna hear you at all. *

buh bye


----------



## woody333333 (May 13, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> yeah, you hang on to that hate, good for your soul.


I don't hate him for it..... I feel sorry for him........


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> like racism I would guess.....


dont even respond to them. to me it sounds like you're talking to yourself.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

speaking of noobs and defoliation
there was a thread someplace where a true noob had a teenager plant and he heard defol was great. decided to pull all but maybe 3 leaves off his plant.
then he was like
why does it look so bad.
then, still in veg, he thought he had white hairs and was all pumped.
somebody said pretty sure those are new leaves. hurry, pull them off!
high fives ensued


----------



## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

^^^ I lol'ed ^^^

its a simple experiment guys. We don't all have access to state of the art labs and facilities. How could we? This is a federal crime after all...

I'm very interested to see how this goes, and whether you will accept or reject your null hypothesis.

That's what this is all about... If you truly are treating both beds the same then there can't be favoritism at play here, objective results will be shown at the end.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> I don't hate him for it..... I feel sorry for him........


I said multiple times "you may be right" "we will see the results" "I just wanna try it out." 
honestly, I feel they are right.
yet they are all hung up on their research lab heirarchy.
we are not even arguing with them. they are arguing with us. 
fucking sad. time clock punchers. 

my own father doesn't even talk to me like that.
they all kind of seem like angry old men frustrated that us happy young men won't just roll with the status quo and take their word for it. my ego would get butt hurt too, I guess.
but then I know how to talk to ppl to get results because I'm a charming mother fucker, and affable.

questionnaire
are you my boss? no
are you funding my little science project? no
are you mentoring me at my request? no
are the results gonna devastate your life? no
then be respectful to a fellow grower OR fuck the fuck off! your ego is not needed.

the only thing I read that really freaked me out about aggressive defoliation was the part about removing too much leaf matter disrupting the metabolic pathways and causing them to herm. THAT got my attention. 

tell ya what, I'm gonna put in a call to Ed Rosenthal and see if I can get a quote. 

yeah, I got them Cali Connections.


----------



## chuck estevez (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I said multiple times "you may be right" "we will see the results" "I just wanna try it out."
> honestly, I feel they are right.
> yet they are all hung up on their research lab heirarchy.
> we are not even arguing with them. they are arguing with us.
> ...


 If UB was ED, would you fight with him then? UB has been around longer than ED and Ed probably learned some stuff from UB. If you saw these types of threads for 20 years and they all end the same, you would be a little tired of them too. That will be the last post for me in your thread. good luck


----------



## woody333333 (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I said multiple times "you may be right" "we will see the results" "I just wanna try it out."
> honestly, I feel they are right.
> yet they are all hung up on their research lab heirarchy.
> we are not even arguing with them. they are arguing with us.
> ...


defoliation is pretty dumb..... not really a mystery there......


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> ^^^ I lol'ed ^^^
> 
> its a simple experiment guys. We don't all have access to state of the art labs and facilities. How could we? This is a federal crime after all...
> 
> ...


*yeah exactly! exactamundo. *
_
a moment of silence for the pure truth has been spoken _


I am treating both beds the same. it wouldn't be a legit experiment with additional variables, now would it? I will photodocument it and record data. you can find the flaws if you can but I'm pretty OCD.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Thckingdom said:


> I'm think around 3lbow maybe I'm in soil on these ones if water 41/2lbow


THC
lets not make anymore crazy claims about a 4 elbow indoor plant, ok?
32 colas x 60g each is 4.23 pounds is basically how it sounded to me and I was giving you the side eye myself

look what happened!

don't draw the rational but crazy crowd. shhhhhh

PM me if u like


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> defoliation is pretty dumb..... not really a mystery there......


yeah I thought so too until I had a canopy so crazy packed out that I lost a lot of bud to larf.


----------



## woody333333 (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> yeah I thought so too until I had a canopy so crazy packed out that I lost a lot of bud to larf.


no doubt.... but it was grower error that led you there and you didn't do better than you would have w a good plan..... plants don't like being fukd w....


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> defoliation is pretty dumb..... not really a mystery there......


really and truly I think they are right: defoliation is bad for plants, they will shed their leaves themselves naturally. if at all. 

I just want to see if defol seriously hurts my yield. I like to do some canopy maintenance. I like light penetration and air circulation. I just want to learn when and how much defol/canopy maintenance I can get away with without hurting my yield on Skywalker OG and Blue Drag0n

does anyone have a problem with that?


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> no doubt.... but it was grower error that led you there and you didn't do better than you would have w a good plan..... plants don't like being fukd w....


well it was one of my first runs ever and first run with that strain so.... errors were bound to happen.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

I'm going back to the Haiku thread. tired of arguing


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> no doubt.... but it was grower error that led you there and you didn't do better than you would have w a good plan..... plants don't like being fukd w....


plants don't like being fucked with but that's what all growers do unless you are an organic outdoor soil grower.


----------



## woody333333 (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> plants don't like being fucked with but that's what all growers do unless you are an organic outdoor soil grower.


I would suggest you leave em alone in flower.... you wont find any "growers" defoliating ..... not that it hurts to trim a few leaves out of the canopy but you should get all that stuff done during veg and let your plants grow into the shape you've planned.....


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> I would suggest you leave em alone in flower.... you wont find any "growers" defoliating ..... not that it hurts to trim a few leaves out of the canopy but you should get all that stuff done during veg and let your plants grow into the shape you've planned.....


Yeah thats what ive been doing. I just wanted to try this on for kicks.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Jay was telling all to Power 105.1 in NY ... when the DJs asked Hova about his beef with Robert De Niro ... which came to a head last year when RDN reportedly dressed Jay down at a party because the rapper didn't return his phone calls.
It's clear from the interview ... Jay doesn't care for Robert -- and though he never took a direct shot, he spoke in very pointed generics ... saying, "I treat people based on who they are ... who they REALLY are."

He continued, "It doesn't matter who you are, everyone has to be respectful."


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

All the growers i know defoliate the last week or two.


woody333333 said:


> I would suggest you leave em alone in flower.... you wont find any "growers" defoliating ..... not that it hurts to trim a few leaves out of the canopy but you should get all that stuff done during veg and let your plants grow into the shape you've planned.....


----------



## woody333333 (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> All the growers i know defoliate the last week or two.


that's dumb 2.......


----------



## mmjmon (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> All the growers i know defoliate the last week or two.


Looks like you may have to put a couple of plants aside to compare the defoliation in the last 2 weeks now.... 

Also, I thank you for, publicly, doing what seems to be such a controversial topic so we all can see the results of YOUR grow. I am a fan of UB and of keeping leaves as well as keeping them green. I also recognize that he has told others to not just follow the crowd and do your own experimentation for your own results. (mostly for nutes I guess)

Anyway, I just wanted to say I support the fact that you want to see how things turn out with this grow under these conditions and that it is interesting enough for me to follow along and see the progress no matter what the turn out. I love that you just want to have fun trying something out.

Thanks for sharing


----------



## neo12345 (May 13, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Need personal observation to confirm your observation. All of my outdoor grows are such that top to bottom all budsites get the same amount of daily photons. The lower buds are still popcorn.


No need as Chuck Estevez PH'd has confirmed that this is true, and has called us both dicks for not knowing this from birth!! 

If you can grow outside then most training is probably a waste of time, it would be far easier just to let them grow au natural I agree. Growing indoors with limited light and space on the other hand is completely different in my opinion.

I have an issue with that article written by Robert Connell Clarke as it is full of conjecture and supposition, if you read the full article again carefully you'll see he uses the words might, could and may before stating what he believes are truths. 

For example 'Premature removal of leaves *may* cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced.'

He doesn't appear to be speaking from a position of experience, which worries me if he is claiming to be an expert and writing articles on why you shouldn't remove leaves.

I still haven't seen any of this scientific evidence that Jorge Cevantes mentions which I think it quite strange, unless he is the only person to have seen it.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that there isn't really much scientific evidence for either side if any at all, so some respect must be given to anyone willing to have a go and try to experiment. Even though I do agree that this isn't the most scientific of tests (no offence Oscar), at least he is having a go!

I wouldn't claim that any of my experiments with defoliation are 100% scientific, but they have thrown up some interesting results which I've never mentioned but have heard them repeated by other people who have defoliated. So some of these things have been replicated by other growers doing similar things, that in itself should have most scientists at least a little interested in why these things happen when you defoliate.

There is clearly a lot of misunderstanding between both sides, but until people are willing to stop arguing and try to discuss this matter in a civil manner we will still be arguing about it in 15 years time.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

mmjmon said:


> Looks like you may have to put a couple of plants aside to compare the defoliation in the last 2 weeks now....
> 
> Also, I thank you for, publicly, doing what seems to be such a controversial topic so we all can see the results of YOUR grow. I am a fan of UB and of keeping leaves as well as keeping them green. I also recognize that he has told others to not just follow the crowd and do your own experimentation for your own results. (mostly for nutes I guess)
> 
> ...


Thank you. I appreciate your sentiments. Wish there were more ppl like you.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

It may not be sophisticated and its definitely not done by the USDA. However, a scientific experiment is simple at its core:
All factors remain constant for the subject and control groups with the exception of the variable that tests your hypothesis. No PHD required. Grade school kids have figured this much out. 

I won first place in every science fair i ever entered. 
LOL

Pretty sure i can defend this especially since i am the only one who is biting this bullet. 



neo12345 said:


> No need as Chuck Estevez PH'd has confirmed that this is true, and has called us both dicks for not knowing this from birth!!
> 
> If you can grow outside then most training is probably a waste of time, it would be far easier just to let them grow au natural I agree. Growing indoors with limited light and space on the other hand is completely different in my opinion.
> 
> ...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

sikkinixx said:


> Interesting article in good old high times about leaves.
> 
> http://www.hightimes.com/read/nico’s-nuggets-understanding-anatomy-your-plants


I will def give this a read. thx.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

miccyj said:


> I think that if this is true, the size difference of the top colas is negligible, and offset by the increase of total weight of the entire harvest, and for a commercial grower like me, that is more important than slightly larger colas. I may feel differently if I only grew for personal use. But again, I'm not convinced that it does hurt the top colas at all. I'm starting a new room in a couple of weeks with 24 WWxBB and 24 greenhouse seeds the doctor, I think that I will leave a couple of each unplugged and see how they do.


I will take measurements of each bud and table the data like a real researcher. haha. you guys are making me work.
I was just gonna weigh table A (defol) vs table B (control) but now we need data on SIZE.
SIZE DOES MATTER


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> that's dumb 2.......


Why? I have a two foot thick canopy full of giant colas. 
#1 I don't want to get bud rot
#2 I want the plant to drain itself of metabolic resources so I have a nice white ash and no harsh chlorophyll smoke. the best way to do this is to gradually defol the last two weeks so you have fewer 'sources' or fan leaves to put nutrients back into the plant. 
plants turn yellow and everybody wins. now nobody start fighting over this LOL

those bitches will be ready to trim and will dry faster

_you know how the game go, she'll be mine by halftime
~Weezy F Babay_


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Just spoke w two friends of mine. One w fifteen years exp and one from humboldt w at least 25 yrs exp. 
both agreed on and practice defol as set forth in this exp. humboldt guy thins everything day 15-17
And both guys thin canopy gradually over last two weeks. 
40 years of experience agrees w me. These are not guys w two plants in a closet either.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> that's dumb 2.......


Well the guys i am talking about have 40 yrs combined experience. I dont think they are 'dumb'; they do what they know to work. Concerned w quality and yield, they defol the last two weeks and after the first two weeks of flower. Scrog grows. Everything from OG to platinum rainbow sprinkle GSC.
I BELIEVE THEM.


----------



## MrEDuck (May 13, 2014)

Well that was a lot to read through. Thanks for trying to set up a study with actual controls. It seems like a well designed experiment and I look forward to seeing the results. Not so much to reading another month and a half of folks arguing. Props to you for trying to test for yourself and doing so with a thought out experiment!


----------



## waterdawg (May 13, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Interesting! Are you familiar with the Keyplex 350 DP product that came out of a big research SAR program commissioned with the USDA? I was recently gifted with 5 gals. of the stuff and am experimenting with it and sharing it with commercial nut/fruit producers and recently sent a sample to a fine greenhouse grower to play with. http://www.ars.usda.gov/is/AR/archive/may98/prot0598.htm


Well pin a rose on your nose lol. Again not nay or yay re: defoilation and honestly I have never done it with my outdoor plants because there was just way to many, but this was never meant to be scientific experiment!!! Anyway its to bad! I have yet to see any comparisons that show its a bad thing and thats the part I dont get? Are thier actual grows that you guys have done the show the effects over a period of time. I did two plants side by side last run (really shitty plants I admit lol). The one plant was stripped of any leaf that had a stem longer than one inch and honestly there was no difference that I could perceive, so I still have no clue lol. But I gotta say we do get worked up over this. Thats the part that just amazes me, but alas no one will tell me why lol. Sorry for stirring the pot Oscar!!! I missed abit and didnt get the post in before the poetry started lol. But I see the poetry was soon discarded for more slamming! I typically dont get involved in these defoilation threads and followed this one for the only reason that, here's a guy thats not saying its good, or bad really, just wants to see whats up. How could this turn into a, well, what it has turned into. And it did lol.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

I am not saying yay or nay either. If table A has a lower total yield then we know an aggressive defol day 15 isnt great. The Haterz can say we told you so!
if its the same or close then no detrimental effects are noted. If its higher we know it might be great. 18 plants per table is a reasonable sample size. 
I will replicate the experiment several times. A year from now we shpuld have some definitive data. 
I may have to stop yanking leaves off my girls. Im cool with that. 

We moved the haiku to a new thread.


waterdawg said:


> Well pin a rose on your nose lol. Again not nay or yay re: defoilation and honestly I have never done it with my outdoor plants because there was just way to many, but this was never meant to be scientific experiment!!! Anyway its to bad! I have yet to see any comparisons that show its a bad thing and thats the part I dont get? Are thier actual grows that you guys have done the show the effects over a period of time. I did two plants side by side last run (really shitty plants I admit lol). The one plant was stripped of any leaf that had a stem longer than one inch and honestly there was no difference that I could perceive, so I still have no clue lol. But I gotta say we do get worked up over this. Thats the part that just amazes me, but alas no one will tell me why lol. Sorry for stirring the pot Oscar!!! I missed abit and didnt get the post in before the poetry started lol. But I see the poetry was soon discarded for more slamming! I typically dont get involved in these defoilation threads and followed this one for the only reason that, here's a guy thats not saying its good, or bad really, just wants to see whats up. How could this turn into a, well, what it has turned into. And it did lol.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> you wont find any "growers" defoliating .......


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

T


OscarLaGrouch said:


> I said multiple times "you may be right" "we will see the results" "I just wanna try it out."
> honestly, I feel they are right.
> yet they are all hung up on their research lab heirarchy.
> we are not even arguing with them. they are arguing with us.
> ...


e


OscarLaGrouch said:


> THC
> lets not make anymore crazy claims about a 4 elbow indoor plant, ok?
> 32 colas x 60g each is 4.23 pounds is basically how it sounded to me and I was giving you the side eye myself
> 
> ...


Ok mate ill shhh they are not all 60g from 30 to 60 super cropping I only preach what I practice,love ask ed mate,but Kyle Kushman is a guy I followed for many years check him out


----------



## Thckingdom (May 13, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Like I said pics or it didn't happen, I see maybe 3/4 oz colas and at best a dozen of them and some smaller ones. Your claim was (32) 30 -60 gram buds. Stop promoting this defoliation nonsense with made up numbers and bullshit science, especially to noobs who love to play with their plants which is all this really is, not botany. And yes like many here on this forum I do have degrees in biology and chemistry and worked for a fully paneled USDA research scientist for 7 years. Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

mmjmon said:


> Looks like you may have to put a couple of plants aside to compare the defoliation in the last 2 weeks now....


Nah man. Thats another variable. Another experiment. One variable per trial. 

Theoryefol that late in the game wont change much.


----------



## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Nah man. Thats another variable. Another experiment. One variable per trial.
> 
> Theoryefol that late in the game wont change much.


I'm sure you mean hypothesis???


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> I'm sure you mean hypothesis???


Same thing


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

Check back in july



MrEDuck said:


> Well that was a lot to read through. Thanks for trying to set up a study with actual controls. It seems like a well designed experiment and I look forward to seeing the results. Not so much to reading another month and a half of folks arguing. Props to you for trying to test for yourself and doing so with a thought out experiment!


----------



## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Same thing


Not to the scientific community


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Not to the scientific community


briefly explain the difference between a scientific hypothesis and a scientific theory.?
*Best Answer (Chosen by Voter)*
Both refer to an *explanation* for some observed phenomenon.

However, a hypothesis is tentative, and has not been tested. In fact, there can be several competing hypotheses (explanations) for the same phenomenon, all of which can co-exist until some experiment can be designed to eliminate some of them to leave one hypothesis standing.

Once a hypothesis has undergone some testing, and is verified by considerable evidence beyond the phenomenon it was originally intended to explain, then we call it a theory.

A hypothesis can also be a proposed addition to a larger theory ... as a theory can grow in order to explain more and more phenomena. As long as the hypothesis is consistent with the other statements of the theory, then if that hypothesis is further confirmed, this strengthens the theory ... by adding to the body of evidence explained by the theory.

A theory is the highest status that an explanation can achieve. Some people mistakenly assume that a theory gets "proved" to become a "law" ... but this completely misunderstands how science works. A law (unlike a hypothesis or theory) is not an *explanation*, but rather a *description* of some phenomenon ... usually in the form "if condition X is true, then condition Y is also true" or "event Y will happen." Since *laws* are descriptive, and theories are *explanatory*, they are two completely different types of statement ... so a theory can never become a law, and a law can never become a theory.


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## Uncle Ben (May 13, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Uncle Ben is spot on when he points out that actual scientists replicate their experiments under strict protocols regarding the technique, and observation that always involve triple redundancy and multiple trials. They are also subject to external monitoring and peer review by accomplished members of their respective fields (which you are getting right now from UB, Chuck and myself).


And don't forget what the 16 year old stoner with a Masters degree in botany once said.....



OscarLaGrouch said:


> not to hijack the thread but I wanted to invite interested parties *to an actual scientific experiment on the subject of defoliation.*
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/effect-of-defoliation-on-yield-skywalker-og-indoor-scrog.827202/


And just how scientific is it? 

Perhaps you should do a poll. That will surely confirm the right or wrong, after all, there are scholars here who claim RC Clark and Jorge don't know squat...and if these scholars say it, it must be twue.

These defoliation threads are as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.


----------



## Izoc666 (May 13, 2014)

Poll is excellent idea, sir.


----------



## chuck estevez (May 13, 2014)

*well do you?*


*I flush*
5 vote(s)
12.5%

*I defloiate*
3 vote(s)
7.5%

*I do both*
6 vote(s)
15.0%
*
*I just grow and smoke no foolishness*
31 vote(s)
77.5%
Multiple votes are allowed.


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## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Ok i give up
> 
> 
> 'Splain, Lucy
> Enlighten us



You did a great job of proving my point.

If you seriously believe that a scientific hypothesis and a scientific theory are one and the same then you lose all credibility in my eyes, especially after claiming to be educated in the sciences

I'm not bashing, I still support your purpose of this thread. But seriously? No difference between the two words?


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## MrEDuck (May 13, 2014)

As a trained scientist the difference isn't stressed enough until more advanced levels. I've heard colleagues with PhDs use theory in the vernacular sense too many times to judge the slip too harshly. Especially after seeing decent experimental design and plans to replicate in the future.


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## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Look I have not slept one minute in 36 hours. I didnt feel like splitting hairs supernerd style. Not doing it now either.
> In my ipinion you need a theory to form a hypothesis and a hypothesis to support a theory. Im good with that and so are most of the ppl reading this thread. I dont want to argue.


You know what they say about opinions 

Keep on keeping on bro, maybe get some sleep. Over exhaustion disrupts metabolic pathways


----------



## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Im fucking tired bruh. Could u get off my jock?


I'm merely pointing that your credibility with the science savvy is lost when you interchange those words.

I still support you continuing with this experiment.

Not riding your "jock", pointing out that those words have definitions for a reason.


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## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

I'll stop posting. I've made my point.

Good day to you, Grouch


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

I grow some dank shyt. Tryna grow more of it. 

Nothing else matters to me.


----------



## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)




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## OscarLaGrouch (May 13, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> I'm merely pointing that your credibility with the science savvy is lost when you interchange those words.
> 
> I still support you continuing with this experiment.
> 
> Not riding your "jock", pointing out that those words have definitions for a reason.


Definitions confine me. Catching someone in an error and rubbing their face in it is petty Hairsplitting is for nerds who vy for a spot in the pecking order. The way its always been done is for those who cant think of a better way to do it. 

I am a maverick. I defy convention. Everything is a box and I am always outside of it, thinking. The only traditions I observe are snowboarding in winter, Thanksgiving Dinner and calling my fam on the important days. 

I am totally misunderstood. 

If that makes ppl feel superior, so be it. 

I dont aspire to the norm; I aspire to excellence.


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## a senile fungus (May 13, 2014)

Congratulations?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Listen here!
*This thread has a chance to become a stikky. * 

This thread will be here to help others learn and make decisions about their methods. It is ok to be a disbeliever but let the experiment sink or swim on it's own merit. Negative comments will not be tolerated. If you want to do an experiment that shows defoliation in a different light, go do it in your own lab, on your own dime and start your own thread. I built a lab and I am using it as I see fit. Opinions about defol can be kept until the experiment is completed. We are not debating the merits without scientific data. 

Due to current federal law, professional scientists cant even research cannabis in a lab with all the bells and whistles that are necessary to be a "well-controlled" and replicated research project to their own standards. Projects like this will have to serve as a research lab in the void. Put your money where your mouth is and show us how its done or STFU. 

Personal attacks upon me or anyone else will not be tolerated. The group will be asked to add the poster to their ignore list and not to respond. 

*Rules*
No personal attacks
No posts of your own plants
No diatribes etc
No name calling
No assertions that cannot be backed by empirical data. 

Anyone who fucks this up by engaging in petty squabbles will be immediately ignored as a group by those interested in maintaining the integrity of the thread. Their comments will be deleted by mods. If you have already made an irrelevant or questionable post, please clean it up by deleting it. Take that shyt to TNT. 

Lets find out, peacefully, if an aggressive defoliation on day 15 has an advantageous, deleterious or neutral impact on total yield of Skywalker OG. 

Please go ahead and delete any posts that you dont want to hang your reputation or your humanity on. Lets pare this bitch down to the good 411.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

From the AnonyMod:

Just found ur experiment. If ur having issues with members being a-holes I'll be happy to delete their comments. There are some members here that just want to troll and not contribute. I won't stand for it. This thread has merit and I may sticky it after you're finished to help other ppl learn. Thanks for caring enough to do it in the first place.


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## waterdawg (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> These defoliation threads are as predictable as the sun rising in the morning.


----------



## waterdawg (May 14, 2014)

Opps! not sure what happened there! But yes these threads are all the same lol! And yes it does seem that this thread was as OP said "scientific" but I think we can all agree that, while this is not true in the sense that there is no lab, very small sample, and only one person involved, it is interesting lol. I just don't get the down with the ship, fight till the death, mentality by the "defoliating is a myth" group. But I guess it takes too or more to disagree, the Op has never definitively said its the way to go. So why the fight!! Fuck I keep asking that lol!!! Guess I'm getting paranoid that I may be missing something here and world domination may be next! .


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## waterdawg (May 14, 2014)

Sorry I guess one persons lab is another's grow room, FYI I do refer to my shed as the lab lol, its not lol. Sorry Oscar but the more you try to defend this very interesting, dare I say experiment! I think (IMO) you take away the original intent. Still very interested in the outcome though. And it has raised my curiosity, to say the least lol, in learning more about why there is so much "passion" in the fight not to pluck!!!!


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## Nizza (May 14, 2014)

now really think about this.. you have 12 overgrown plants that you prune back a ton and spend an extra month "defoliating" to achieve proper light
or you have 12 plants that you grew to an appropriate size, then flowered, and didn't need to do any defoliating, just a little LST.

you achieve the harvest one month early. some may argue that they don't care cause they have so many plants in veg, but think that you could actually be flowering those over-vegged plants in time to not have to "defoliate".

I really liked uncle bens 2 or 4 top method. If you do the 4 top method, as the buds dense up, they weigh down outward and allow light in the middle of the plant more.

also wanted to mention, when the oscillating fan wiggles my leaves, there is now light getting to EVERY leaf. When needed, translocation will feed whatever needs it, so i keep as much green leaf on the plant (following a 3-1-2 NPK feed schedule the entire time). The result is maybe a little "less" bud but one whole month quicker, so i see it like almost getting a half of a harvest back

i guess my statement is that the claim to improved yields through defoliating is actually due to extra veg time and defoliation is necessary because you don't have enough light to satisfy the plant, all of this will take longer than it has to and is counter productive. Not that it doesn't "work" but it should be avoided


----------



## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Listen here!
> *This thread has a chance to become a stikky. *
> 
> This thread will be here to help others learn and make decisions about their methods. It is ok to be a disbeliever but let the experiment sink or swim on it's own merit. Negative comments will not be tolerated. If you want to do an experiment that shows defoliation in a different light, go do it in your own lab, on your own dime and start your own thread. I built a lab and I am using it as I see fit. Opinions about defol can be kept until the experiment is completed. We are not debating the merits without scientific data.
> ...


*This has NO CHANCE to become a sticky*. Where is *your* empirical data when you can't properly use scientific terms that "in your opinion" are interchangeable. For your edification:

*Theory:* A *scientific theory* is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method, and repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.

*Hypothesis:* For a hypothesis to be a *scientific hypothesis*, the scientific method requires that one can test it. Scientists generally base scientific hypotheses on previous observations that cannot satisfactorily be explained with the available scientific theories.

*THE DIFFERENCE ? *Even though the words "hypothesis" and "theory" are often used synonymously, a _scientific hypothesis_ is not the same as a _scientific theory_. A _scientific hypothesis_ is a proposed explanation of a phenomenon which still has to be rigorously tested. In contrast, _a scientific theory_ has undergone extensive testing and is generally accepted to be the accurate explanation behind an observation.


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I am a maverick. I defy convention. Everything is a box and I am always outside of it, thinking.


And therein lies the problem. Try as you may, you can not change mother nature's conventions.

Hell, why don't you pluckers attempt to understand botanical conventions rather than embracing conventional forum bullshit? Flushing, 100w/s.f., defoliation....it's stupid. But, with every crop of newbies they have to learn the hard way, finding out that "old school" is always best.

I am a maverick too, but I first find out and understand the (botanical) rules before wasting my precious time.


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

Nizza said:


> ....also wanted to mention, when the oscillating fan wiggles my leaves, there is now light getting to EVERY leaf. When needed, translocation will feed whatever needs it, so i keep as much green leaf on the plant (following a 3-1-2 NPK feed schedule the entire time). The result is maybe a little "less" bud but one whole month quicker, so i see it like almost getting a half of a harvest back


I feel a need to expand on that since it hits home. Amongst the winegrowers community, there is disagreement regarding the laborious task of "leafing"....removing most leaves in the fruit zone on the east side in hot climes, both east and west in moderate. The effect is on the fruit, has nothing to do with productivity that is alluded to in all defoliation threads. The exposure to sunlight reduces the herbaceous profile in the wine and increases anthrocyanins. More color, more market appeal. Having said that, there are scientific studies that have been done using lab spectometers reflecting that as little as 10% of dappled light produces the same effect as "leafing" and has the added benefit of cooling the clusters of grapes which reduces the "jam" effect. 

As discussed, you remove fan leaves, the primary food factory unit for a plant, and you retard the plant. You interfere with very important plant processes such as metabolite storage, transpiration and can impart hermies, etc.

Uncle Ben


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

I overvegged so I ha ve too many


Uncle Ben said:


> And therein lies the problem. Try as you may, you can not change mother nature's conventions.
> 
> Hell, why don't you pluckers attempt to understand botanical conventions rather than embracing conventional forum bullshit? Flushing, 100w/s.f., defoliation....it's stupid. But, with every crop of newbies they have to learn the hard way, finding out that "old school" is always best.
> 
> I am a maverick too, but I first find out and understand the (botanical) rules before wasting my precious time.


 I am back on this site for the first time since the format changed and I need to ask for help, I remember you being the answer man and can I ask your advice on something?


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Still very interested in the outcome though.


The "outcome" has been expressed in a dozen threads as has the stupidity and valid botanical points. This may be new to you, but it's not. Try using the RIU search feature using such keywords as "lollipopping" and "defoliation".


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> I overvegged so I ha ve too many
> 
> I am back on this site for the first time since the format changed and I need to ask for help, I remember you being the answer man and can I ask your advice on something?


I'm listening.....


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

Hey thank you, I had a situation where my available area for flowering was decreased by 30% and decided to put the veg I had waiting in a space that I knew would be crowded. I am not a newbie, I knew this would result and a jungle of medium sized nugs lies beneath a nice even canopy of spears. They will not mature at the same time obviously. What would you do in this situation?


----------



## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

I just plucked this gem from another defoliation thread, enjoy.......

*Defoliating doesn't doom the plant. It's used for bonzai to obtain leef reduction and to halt growth, height. While the plant is growing new leave it is not becoming taller.*


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> I just plucked this gem from another defoliation thread, enjoy.......
> 
> *Defoliating doesn't doom the plant. It's used for bonzai to obtain leef reduction and to halt growth, height. While the plant is growing new leave it is not becoming taller.*


to mimic a bonsai technique is to miniaturize a plant that you want to grow. That is absurd!!! Leaves are the energy receptors that make buds form. Cut a leaf and stunt that bud. I do not get it


----------



## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> to mimic a bonsai technique is to miniaturize a plant that you want to grow. That is absurd!!! Leaves are the energy receptors that make buds form. Cut a leaf and stunt that bud. I do not get it



EXACTLY !!!!!!!


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> Hey thank you, I had a situation where my available area for flowering was decreased by 30% and decided to put the veg I had waiting in a space that I knew would be crowded. I am not a newbie, I knew this would result and a jungle of medium sized nugs lies beneath a nice even canopy of spears. They will not mature at the same time obviously. What would you do in this situation?


Just do it. If you're worried about going against the herd..... that cannabis needs 100w/s.f. to perform well, forget that nonsense. Indoors I crammed plants into a small space, they got "38w/s.f." and did fine. Of course we all know the watts/s.f. is a farce. A lot depends on good reflecting panels.


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> EXACTLY !!!!!!!


 you want no flowers? Or a bonsai plant for your kitchen? What is your end game.....most people want to have flowers and plenty of them


----------



## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> you want no flowers? Or a bonsai plant for your kitchen? What is your end game.....most people want to have flowers and plenty of them


Is your irony meter broken or are your reading/comprehension skills challenged?


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just do it. If you're worried about going against the herd..... that cannabis needs 100w/s.f. to perform well, forget that nonsense. Indoors I crammed plants into a small space, they got "38w/s.f." and did fine. Of course we all know the watts/s.f. is a farce. A lot depends on good reflecting panels.


 So I am going to give the plants a flattop, reduce the nutes a tad, and hang another 400w bulb. I have no worries about the herd, I want a bottom growth surge and have to defoliate to get it. I was looking for any tricks because this does not seem like a rare occurance. Thanks amigo.


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Is your irony meter broken or are your reading/comprehension skills challenged?


 In this case....yes.


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

That is irony.


----------



## waterdawg (May 14, 2014)

Around and around we go! Where it will stop no one knows lol


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> That is irony.


Irony of this place is that most use techniques that actually retard a plant when their dream is to enhance it, push it. Too much light, too little N, too much plant food of the wrong kind, removing the very unit that produces the bud and other important plant tissue i.e. roots, flushing, confining/restricting plants to tents.....the list just goes on.

Bit of wisdom found in another active defoliation thread - "well i don't know the science, I've just proven it doing side by side comparisons."


----------



## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

I was in a hydro store a couple days back and it was packed full of newbs, like barely legal status and it really became clear that they knew absolutely nothing and were about spend a lot of money to find that out. There was 3 of us middle aged farmers with a simpler paradigm shaking our heads and smiling just to no longer be addicted to the complex and extreme fiction of what it takes to be good at this. I have found a happy medium....


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Having a little trouble sorting out your post bit i think youre saying if you flip to flower at the right time instead of letting them overveg then defol is unnecessary. I agree. However there are times I am forced to delay harvest or delay getting plants into flower so by the time I do, they need some pruning and defol to clean them up. I also mainline them. 

All plants were started from clone and vegged for three weeks. All plants were topped to the fifth internode. Tops sent to clone tray to root. Both trays contain 18 plants. On 15th day of flower tray A was defoliated of a significant number of mature fan leaves. 
Both trays will be chopped on the same day and quantified separately. No extra veg time in either tray. 




Nizza said:


> now really think about this.. you have 12 overgrown plants that you prune back a ton and spend an extra month "defoliating" to achieve proper light
> or you have 12 plants that you grew to an appropriate size, then flowered, and didn't need to do any defoliating, just a little LST.
> 
> you achieve the harvest one month early. some may argue that they don't care cause they have so many plants in veg, but think that you could actually be flowering those over-vegged plants in time to not have to "defoliate".
> ...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Does my room look more like a lab than a spare bedroom? Does it look less like a REAL lab and more like a spare bedroom?
Yes and yes.


waterdawg said:


> Sorry I guess one persons lab is another's grow room, FYI I do refer to my shed as the lab lol, its not lol. Sorry Oscar but the more you try to defend this very interesting, dare I say experiment! I think (IMO) you take away the original intent. Still very interested in the outcome though. And it has raised my curiosity, to say the least lol, in learning more about why there is so much "passion" in the fight not to pluck!!!!


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Nizza said:


> i guess my statement is that the claim to improved yields through defoliating is actually due to extra veg time and defoliation is necessary because you don't have enough light to satisfy the plant, all of this will take longer than it has to and is counter productive. Not that it doesn't "work" but it should be avoided


My hypothesis is not so much that it will increase yields but rather to determine if defol negatively affects yield.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

I have assurances from a mod that the thread will be purged of the arguments. 
That being said, there isnt much to report other than observations and data until harvest etc in July. 
Thanks for referring to this as a"well-designed experiment". 


MrEDuck said:


> Well that was a lot to read through. Thanks for trying to set up a study with actual controls. It seems like a well designed experiment and I look forward to seeing the results. Not so much to reading another month and a half of folks arguing. Props to you for trying to test for yourself and doing so with a thought out experiment!


h


----------



## neo12345 (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> That will surely confirm the right or wrong, after all, there are scholars here who claim RC Clark and Jorge don't know squat...and if these scholars say it, it must be twue.


That is certainly not what I said about Jorge and RC Clarke, I didn't suggest in the slightest that they don't know anything.

You posted a quote and video from Jorge where he says that there is science behind what he is saying about not pulling off leaves, I'm just asking to see this science? 

You and others have posted in here that you will only believe peer reviewed scientific papers, so can we see these scientific papers regarding cannabis defoliation that have convinced you that it doesn't work?

With regards to RC Clarke here is the article in question:

_If these inhibitor-laden leaves are removed, the plant will proceed to flower, and maturation will be accelerated. Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters *may* begin to develop if they receive more light.

In actuality, few if any of the theories behind defoilatin or de-leafing give any indication of validity. Indeed, leafing *possibly* serves to defeat its original purpose. Large leaves have a definite function in the growth and development of Cannabis. Large leaves serve as photosynthetic factories for the production of sugars and other necessary growth sub-stances. They also create shade, but at the same time they are collecting valuable solar energy and producing foods that will be used during the floral development of the plant.

Premature removal of leaves *may* cause stunting, because the potential for photosynthesis is reduced. As these leaves age and lose their ability to carry on photo-synthesis they turn chloro tie (yellow) and fall to the ground. In humid areas care is taken to remove the yellow or brown leaves, because they might invite attack by fungus.

During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls, and translocates the molecular components to a new growing part of the plant, such as the flowers. Most Cannabis plants begin to lose their larger leaves when they enter the flowering stage, and this trend continues until senescence. It is more efficient for the plant to reuse the energy and various molecular components of existing chlorophyll than to synthesize new chlorophyll at the time of flowering. During flowering this energy is needed to form floral clusters and ripen seeds.

Removing large amounts of leaves will interfere with the metabolic balance of the plant. If this metabolic change occurs too late in the season *it could* interfere with floral development and delay maturation. If any floral inhibitors are removed, the intended effect of accelerating flowering will be counteracted by metabolic upset in the plant.

Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will not grow any larger. Leaf removal
*may* also cause sex reversal resulting from a metabolic change.

Marijuana Botany.Clarke_

Can you see what I mean, he doesn't seem 100% sure when it comes to specifics about defoliation. I do understand that this article was written in 1981 so there might have been experiments done since then to prove/disprove the claims that he is making.

I also noticed that his first paragraph there is this line "Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.", but you're saying this does not happen as buds don't need light to grow? 

I'm genuinely interested in seeing the evidence that has convinced you that defoliation doesn't work, as I find it quite an interesting subject.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> Hey thank you, I had a situation where my available area for flowering was decreased by 30% and decided to put the veg I had waiting in a space that I knew would be crowded. I am not a newbie, I knew this would result and a jungle of medium sized nugs lies beneath a nice even canopy of spears. They will not mature at the same time obviously. What would you do in this situation?


burger (love the name)
In the past I used to chop only the spears or tops and hang those in my dry room. I'd then let the room go another week or so. 
Its amazing how much light reaches the canopy underlying the tops. all the leaves are a pale green/yellow right?
I'd let the light reach and 'ripen' this plant material and they'd come along nicely. 
However now I am a believer in the whole plant chop, making the previous method unworkable.

You can try tying the tops down a little in a certain direction. As you probably already know, just be careful you don't create a situation where rot will form due to living transpiring plant material all squished together (this IS a scientific phrase). I defol in the last two weeks to open up air circulation and to let light penetrate into the canopy more.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

guys guys guys
I don't know what is going on cuz I only see neo's responses but let me tell you right now that all the acrimony is getting deleted.
this thread has the potential to be a stikky. read my post from this morning.

*keep the science in and the bullshit out *


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> You did a great job of proving my point.
> 
> If you seriously believe that a scientific hypothesis and a scientific theory are one and the same then you lose all credibility in my eyes, especially after claiming to be educated in the sciences
> 
> I'm not bashing, I still support your purpose of this thread. But seriously? No difference between the two words?


Senile
one flip response to a basic question and I lose all credibility? come on, man. of course I know the difference. I just didn't feel like breaking my brain yesterday. I was exhausted. I also really detest it when ppl test me. I posted what I found to be a great explanation from elsewhere on the internet because I was too tired to get into it yesterday.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

are the PHD yahoos still clamoring for a scientific study? I guess they are gonna have to wait for federal legalization then. so should we not attempt any experiments until then?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> You and others have posted in here that you will only believe peer reviewed scientific papers, so can we see these scientific papers regarding cannabis defoliation that have convinced you that it doesn't work?


Uh, there are NO scientific papers because no university or corporate lab will touch it with a ten foot pole. we are stuck with my lame unprofessional illegitimate experiment. 

I really wish the PHDs would have offered constructive criticism or a little help in formulating the experiment rather than this BS.


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> You posted a quote and video from Jorge where he says that there is science behind what he is saying about not pulling off leaves, I'm just asking to see this science?


Huh? I posted the science, the function of a leaf. Jorge points his finger at the camera, sternly says "leave the leaves on" and it's like talking to a brick wall with some. Look, you don't want to understand botany, you'll ignore it in favor of group bullshit which revolves around trends, hearsay and anecdotal evidence.



> You and others have posted in here that you will only believe peer reviewed scientific papers, so can we see these scientific papers regarding cannabis defoliation that have convinced you that it doesn't work?


Sure can. Mel Franks Insiders Guide. He published many correctly done empirical scientific studies done by the U. of Mississippi on cannabis.



> With regards to RC Clarke here is the article in question:
> 
> _During chlorosis the plant breaks down substances, such as chlorophylls,_


_

During "chlorosis? Chlorosis is a leaf condition induced by a micro deficiency. Where in the hell are you getting this crap? _



> Can you see what I mean, he doesn't seem 100% sure when it comes to specifics about defoliation. I do understand that this article was written in 1981 so there might have been experiments done since then to prove/disprove the claims that he is making.
> 
> I also noticed that his first paragraph there is this line "Large leaves shade the inner portions of the plant, and small atrophied floral clusters may begin to develop if they receive more light.", but you're saying this does not happen as buds don't need light to grow?
> 
> I'm genuinely interested in seeing the evidence that has convinced you that defoliation doesn't work, as I find it quite an interesting subject.


You screw around with the original text and then expect me to fall for your failure to communicate and interpret his works correctly?

Get outta here.......


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> burger (love the name)
> In the past I used to chop only the spears or tops and hang those in my dry room. I'd then let the room go another week or so.
> Its amazing how much light reaches the canopy underlying the tops. all the leaves are a pale green/yellow right?
> I'd let the light reach and 'ripen' this plant material and they'd come along nicely.
> ...


 The tops are maxed out and my canopy wont allow it....too may tops as well as two trellis nets locking them into place. I never do a double chop like I am about too but it is amazing herb and a lot less ripe and dense than it should be


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Uh, there are not scientific papers because no university or corporate lab will touch it with a ten foot pole. we are stuck with my lame unprofessional illegitimate experiment.


And folks, this is how Obama was re-elected.

Ignorance is bliss, and kids will be kids.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

do it. double chop


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Having a little trouble sorting out your post bit i think youre saying if you flip to flower at the right time instead of letting them overveg then defol is unnecessary. I agree. However there are times I am forced to delay harvest or delay getting plants into flower so by the time I do, they need some pruning and defol to clean them up. I also mainline them.
> 
> All plants were started from clone and vegged for three weeks. All plants were topped to the fifth internode. Tops sent to clone tray to root. Both trays contain 18 plants. On 15th day of flower tray A was defoliated of a significant number of mature fan leaves.
> Both trays will be chopped on the same day and quantified separately. No extra veg time in either tray.


 which post?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Huh? I posted the science, the function of a leaf. Jorge points his finger at the camera, sternly says "leave the leaves on" and it's like talking to a brick wall with some. Look, you don't want to understand botany, you'll ignore it in favor of group bullshit which revolves around trends, hearsay and anecdotal evidence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uncle Ben,
Please post the study from U of Miss on defoliation and its affect on yield.
I'm ready to learn.
Oscar, le Grouch


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Sorry I guess one persons lab is another's grow room, FYI I do refer to my shed as the lab lol, its not lol. Sorry Oscar but the more you try to defend this very interesting, dare I say experiment! I think (IMO) you take away the original intent. Still very interested in the outcome though. And it has raised my curiosity, to say the least lol, in learning more about why there is so much "passion" in the fight not to pluck!!!!


I'm not really defending it. Pretty sure NEO is on the front lines with that. I'm just the guy plucking leaves and wondering how it will all turn out.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> which post?


Nizzas the one I quoted in the response


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> That is certainly not what I said about Jorge and RC Clarke, I didn't suggest in the slightest that they don't know anything.
> 
> You posted a quote and video from Jorge where he says that there is science behind what he is saying about not pulling off leaves, I'm just asking to see this science?
> 
> ...


 I think when properly vegged, topped, and trained defoliation should really haveno purpose unless the leaves are dead or dying. The canopy that is too thick might have problems but the solution is to do it right the nex time. I screwed up and have a jungle that would love to get more light at the bottom....that is my bad....don't blame the leaves


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> And folks, this is how Obama was re-elected.
> 
> Ignorance is bliss, and kids will be kids.


UB if it makes you feel better, I'm a Republican.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> I think when properly vegged, topped, and trained defoliation should really haveno purpose unless the leaves are dead or dying. The canopy that is too thick might have problems but the solution is to do it right the nex time. I screwed up and have a jungle that would love to get more light at the bottom....that is my bad....don't blame the leaves


I disagree. These plants are hopped up on nutrients to produce more and bigger flowers. I think the leaves must be the same way. Cannabis grown indoors produces more leaves than it needs. Those leaves are blocking airflow and reducing light penetration. In some cases, excess foliage contributes to bud rot. I need to be proved wrong.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> Hey thank you, I had a situation where my available area for flowering was decreased by 30% and decided to put the veg I had waiting in a space that I knew would be crowded. I am not a newbie, I knew this would result and a jungle of medium sized nugs lies beneath a nice even canopy of spears. They will not mature at the same time obviously. What would you do in this situation?


this seems like a direct message question, not really relevant to the thread.


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Uncle Ben,
> Please post the study from U of Miss on defoliation and its affect on yield.
> I'm ready to learn.
> Oscar, le Grouch


Buy the book - http://www.amazon.com/Marijuana-Growers-Insiders-Guide-Frank/dp/0929349008


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

I think my mothers need to be defoliated to stay well actually. Since they produce no bud I do it 2-3 x per week.....they are 5 ft tall


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I disagree. These plants are hopped up on nutrients to produce more and bigger flowers.


Leaves produce buds, _not_ nutrients.

Oscar....you're digging yourself a (newbie) hole!


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> *This has NO CHANCE to become a sticky*. Where is *your* empirical data when you can't properly use scientific terms that "in your opinion" are interchangeable. For your edification:
> 
> *Theory:* A *scientific theory* is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method, and repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.
> 
> ...


I was too tired to entertain a basic question yesterday. Relax. Of course I know the difference.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I feel a need to expand on that since it hits home. Amongst the winegrowers community, there is disagreement regarding the laborious task of "leafing"....removing most leaves in the fruit zone on the east side in hot climes, both east and west in moderate. The effect is on the fruit, has nothing to do with productivity that is alluded to in all defoliation threads. The exposure to sunlight reduces the herbaceous profile in the wine and increases anthrocyanins. More color, more market appeal. Having said that, there are scientific studies that have been done using lab spectometers reflecting that as little as 10% of dappled light produces the same effect as "leafing" and has the added benefit of cooling the clusters of grapes which reduces the "jam" effect.
> 
> As discussed, you remove fan leaves, the primary food factory unit for a plant, and you retard the plant. You interfere with very important plant processes such as metabolite storage, transpiration and can impart hermies, etc.
> 
> Uncle Ben


I read that study and I agree with a lot of what you say. I just feel that indoor plants produce more leaves than they need and, in a scrog, these excessive leaves create air flow and light penetration issues, not to mention fungal issues.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> *This has NO CHANCE to become a sticky*. Where is *your* empirical data when you can't properly use scientific terms that "in your opinion" are interchangeable. For your edification:
> 
> *Theory:* A *scientific theory* is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world that is acquired through the scientific method, and repeatedly confirmed through observation and experimentation.
> 
> ...


ok
what empirical data do you want? do you want me to count all the leaves on all the plants and then give you the exact percentage I removed? what data do you want?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Buy the book - http://www.amazon.com/Marijuana-Growers-Insiders-Guide-Frank/dp/0929349008


is there a defol/yield?


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

What is a sticky?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Leaves produce buds, _not_ nutrients.
> 
> Oscar....you're digging yourself a (newbie) hole!


ok that 's my point. the plants are hopped up on nutrient to produce leaves to produce buds. you're saying we should leave all the leaves on to produce bigger buds. all I'm saying is that I believe that the energy used to produce and maintain excessive leaves could be retained by the plant for producing bigger buds.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> What is a sticky?


man, I don't want this thread crowded up with irrelevant posts. go look on the forums and you can see em. they are threads that are relevant and helpful such that they are posted at the top of the forums as topics new members can read. it prevents the same questions being asked over and over.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Leaves produce buds, _not_ nutrients.
> 
> Oscar....you're digging yourself a (newbie) hole!


why am I feeding my hydro set up nutrients then? I just need leaves. lots of leaves. 

stop being condescending to me. it's very unattractive and makes you look less like an expert to consult and more like someone to avoid. 
all your acrimonious posts will be deleted so please keep it to science and stop the insults.


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## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> ok
> what empirical data do you want? do you want me to count all the leaves on all the plants and then give you the exact percentage I removed? what data do you want?


"*Empirical evidence* (also *empirical data*, *sense experience*, *empirical knowledge*, or the *a posteriori*) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.[1] The term comes from the Greek word for experience, Εμπειρία (empeiría).

Empirical evidence is information that justifies a belief in the truth or falsity of an empirical claim. In the empiricist view, one can claim to have knowledge only when one has a true belief based on empirical evidence."


This is determined by by what is known as the scientific method where proven knowledge is shared by experienced professionals in the community and then built on and experiments are done under controlled conditions also by professionals which you are not. You have an idea (and not a good one) based on your "feelings" that goes against the knowledge base of every grower of merit. Like I said, welcome to peer review where junk science will be publicly bashed.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Irony of this place is that most use techniques that actually retard a plant when their dream is to enhance it, push it. Too much light, too little N, too much plant food of the wrong kind, removing the very unit that produces the bud and other important plant tissue i.e. roots, flushing, confining/restricting plants to tents.....the list just goes on.
> 
> Bit of wisdom found in another active defoliation thread - "well i don't know the science, I've just proven it doing side by side comparisons."


UB what is wrong with me doing this science project to find out for myself? what is the harm in that? why can't you just let me do this? why do you feel the need to stop me from trying because you already know it is a waste of time?


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> why am I feeding my hydro set up nutrients then? I just need leaves. lots of leaves.


This is a lot of (over priced, over hyped) "stuff":

Heavy 16 nutrients (full line)
50/50 coco/perlite
Mykos beneficials mixed into medium and added weekly by top dressing
Protekt Silica
MagiCal
Bio-Cozyme
CannaZyme
Eagle 20
Dutch Master reverse

Do you even know what elements the plants are being given, what the NPK values and micros they "see"?

What did you pay for that stuff? Bonafide educated botanists wouldn't be caught dead buying some of that cannabis specific crap and sure wouldn't divulge to their professional friends they network with that they did. They know better....they'd be laughed right out of the room.

Oscar, contact Raphael Diez at Dyna-Gro, Have a chat with him, tell him what you're using. He's honest and down to earth and the company is well respected in the "normal" horticultural community. He also doesn't take fools lightly (get ready to be told that AN and others are snake oil). No question about it, he outshines me when it comes to diplomacy, which doesn't take much.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> "*Empirical evidence* (also *empirical data*, *sense experience*, *empirical knowledge*, or the *a posteriori*) is a source of knowledge acquired by means of observation or experimentation.[1] The term comes from the Greek word for experience, Εμπειρία (empeiría).
> 
> Empirical evidence is information that justifies a belief in the truth or falsity of an empirical claim. In the empiricist view, one can claim to have knowledge only when one has a true belief based on empirical evidence."
> 
> ...


thanks for that.
I am creating my own empirical knowledge and experience. I defoliated and I will observe the result. I will record the data with regard to the yield of the defoliated plants vs. the natural control plants. A few numbers will result:
yield of A
yield of B
difference between A and B
% difference between A and B

Also, I am a professional. Your position that I should not even do this experiment does not make me unprofessional. You should know that is not a logical conclusion to make. It is an emotional statement that your ego is making. You have stated your intention to bash my junk science. This is not logical either. You also state the knowledge base of "every grower of merit". That means if there are 100 growers of merit that all 100 will oppose defoliation. However I know many 'growers of merit' that DO practice defoliation for various reasons. If it hurt their yields, do you think they would do it? no. however, your emotions would lead you to classify any grower that does not agree with your POV as a "grower without merit". None of this is logic or science, just emotional investment and closed-mindedness. Its sad, really, to see a man of science be so emotional and illogical. 

I want to see if yanking some leaves significantly affects my yield good or bad. I'm gonna do it no matter what is said here.


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

How are you going to decide exactly what material to weigh come harvest? Do you decide or a team of seasoned laboratory professionals and their assistants? What if disease or insect pressure, or some other cultural issues affects some but not others which will affect the outcome and skew the results?

Plant tissue moisture levels? You do have an accurate method/instruments to measure moisture levels in the tissue, or you gonna hang "those bitches", let them dry, clean 'em up and say, "it's time to weigh!" ?

At what point in the plant's development will you say part or all of A or B is ready?

At least you have a control group to play with.

Nobody is saying your shouldn't do your experiment. We've pointed out that these "experiments" are a dime a dozen, the defol threads are a dime a dozen, that this does not come close to being an experiment as conducted by a non-partisan independent lab.

The only conclusion is it will be closed like all the rest.

But more power to you! You have every right to do and share whatever you choose.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

thanks. outshining you in diplomacy would not be that hard. I am not abandoning my nutrient line for another one as that would cost even more money.
NPK 3.25/3.7/6.9.0
micros _Glomus intraradices_

all plants look robust and vigorous with green leaves and no nutrient burn
buds are up to 2cm wide at this point which is day 17.



Uncle Ben said:


> This is a lot of (over priced, over hyped) "stuff":
> 
> Heavy 16 nutrients (full line)
> 50/50 coco/perlite
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

Oscar, I asked some very important questions which will serve to validate or invalidate your drills. If you really choose to dodge them.......

Glomus intraradices is not a micro. It is a endomychorrhizal fungus frequently found in monocots. Whoever talked you into myco fungi for cannabis sold you down the river.

I have a friend who has been doing this for probably 60 years and he told me that a study proved that myco fungi are useless in potted plants.

Am happy the plants look good.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

click quote for response


Uncle Ben said:


> How are you going to decide exactly what material to weigh come harvest? Do you decide or a team of seasoned laboratory professionals and their assistants? What if disease or insect pressure, or some other cultural issues affects some but not others which will affect the outcome and skew the results? /QUOTE]
> I am going to weigh, as state in the OP, the final trimmed buds at a uniform RH of 55%. Again, I have been a lab assistant as an undergrad and am paid to work in a lab as a grad student, so I am a lab professional. I wish I had assistants. I am technically familiar with precision. One does not prepare slides of material 2 microns thick without precision. If disease or some other event occurs, I will report on it and discuss it and its affects. If that happens, its ok because I will just repeat the experiment over and over.
> 
> 
> ...


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Oscar, I asked some very important questions which will serve to validate or invalidate your drills. If you really choose to dodge them.......


I thought I answered them


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

every single product or item sold in a hydro store is overpriced. its and expensive endeavor.


Uncle Ben said:


> This is a lot of (over priced, over hyped) "stuff":
> 
> Heavy 16 nutrients (full line)
> 50/50 coco/perlite
> ...


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Oscar, I asked some very important questions which will serve to validate or invalidate your drills. If you really choose to dodge them.......
> 
> Glomus intraradices is not a micro. It is a endomychorrhizal fungus primarily found in monocots like wheat or alfalfa. Whoever talked you into myco fungi for cannabis sold you down the river.
> 
> ...


oh you meant micro nutrients. I thought you meant microbiology


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Oscar, I asked some very important questions which will serve to validate or invalidate your drills. If you really choose to dodge them.......
> 
> Glomus intraradices is not a micro. It is a endomychorrhizal fungus primarily found in monocots like wheat or alfalfa. Whoever talked you into myco fungi for cannabis sold you down the river.
> 
> ...


yeah I read that stuff too. however, I am growing in hydro and I believe in symbiotic relationships being beneficial. if it doesn't work it doesn't cost that much. if it works, its there.


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## Uncle Ben (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I thought I answered them


Let's try this one more time.

How are you going to decide exactly what material to weigh come harvest? Do you decide or a team of seasoned laboratory professionals and their assistants? What if disease or insect pressure, or some other cultural issues affects some but not others which will affect the outcome and skew the results?

Plant tissue moisture levels? You do have an accurate method/instruments to measure moisture levels in the tissue, or you gonna hang "those bitches", let them dry, clean 'em up and say, "it's time to weigh!" ?

At what point in the plant's development will you say part or all of A or B is ready?


----------



## Izoc666 (May 14, 2014)

Oscar, they're right about your scientific method, which you don't have one. This is more experiment, hopefully it will open your eyes , when you will understand more clear when you know how to make this plant TICK.

I highly recommend you to read this information for plant's needs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition

You don't need a lot of junk nutes if you read the link...I only use dyna gro's foliage pro and pro tekt from start to harvest,

Finally, with respect, I don't think this thread have any merit to become sticky. 

If you really have a respect for this MMJ community then do the right way and give newbies a simple tool.

Peace


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

How are you going to decide exactly what material to weigh come harvest?

* I am going to dry all buds, trim them thoroughly, cure them to 55% RH per Caliber IV hygrometer and weigh each table separately and report the totals. I am not going to weigh vegetative material. *

Do you decide or a team of seasoned laboratory professionals and their assistants?
*I do. I am my own assistant. its not really rocket science; I think I can handle it. *

What if disease or insect pressure, or some other cultural issues affects some but not others which will affect the outcome and skew the results?

*obviously this will be reported and the experiment will need to be repeated.*

Plant tissue moisture levels? You do have an accurate method/instruments to measure moisture levels in the tissue, or you gonna hang "those bitches", let them dry, clean 'em up and say, "it's time to weigh!" ?

*cure them to UNIFORM 55% RH per Caliber IV hygrometer then weigh per original post. guess you're too lazy to read it.*


At what point in the plant's development will you say part or all of A or B is ready?

*when both tables are ready I will chop both at the same time within minutes of each other. If one is ready before the other, I will report this as it is a significant finding. both tables will be lab tested separately for potency.*


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Izoc666 said:


> Oscar, they're right about your scientific method, which you don't have one. This is more experiment, hopefully it will open your eyes , when you will understand more clear when you know how to make this plant TICK.
> 
> I highly recommend you to read this information for plant's needs
> 
> ...


I have always referred to this as an experiment.
do the right way and give newbies a simple tool? what does that mean?


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

Izoc666 said:


> Oscar, they're right about your scientific method, which you don't have one. This is more experiment, hopefully it will open your eyes , when you will understand more clear when you know how to make this plant TICK.
> 
> I highly recommend you to read this information for plant's needs
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition


Well I guess that BS in Botany from a highly-ranked University didnt teach me anything about plant nutritional needs. Bummer
I guess all that top shelf bud I produced was a fluke.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> Yes, it did, Oscar, Get used to hearing this, I will have fries with that!!!


did you guys conduct a study to determine what I know and don't know? was it done in a controlled environment? 
My professors did it for you. Had a B average in a premed program and scored 80th percentile on the GRE Biochemistry, Cell and Molecular Biology Test.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

chuck estevez said:


> Yes, it did, Oscar, Get used to hearing this, I will have fries with that!!!



*you want fries with THIS?*


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> that's not top shelf.....


did you smoke it through the internet? tested at 21% THC and its a single nug at 5g. I had a good amount of those. sold out super fast at the shop. largest nugs in the building so it was an easy choice. 

all this HaterAde drinking is boring. I'm gonna go back to work.


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## woody333333 (May 14, 2014)

you chopped it 2 early for me to believe that.....


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> you chopped it 2 early for me to believe that.....


9 weeks


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## woody333333 (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> 9 weeks


results like that and your scientific mind im sure you saved the results?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)




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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> don't know what to tell ya.... grower error maybe


whatever bruh these personal attacks will all be deleted so waste your own time if you want

_"Hatred is a poison you take, hoping the other person will die."_


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## woody333333 (May 14, 2014)

its not a personal attack ... opinion....


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

its a sativa so clear and cloudy is good enough
the trichs are big enough to see with the naked eye
sugar leaves look like whiskers on grandpas beard


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## dodgydan (May 14, 2014)

hahaha theirs just no pleasing some people! ^^^ cracked me up


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## dodgydan (May 14, 2014)

my top drawer bud. 25% THC. Top that bro


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

woody333333 said:


> make all the excuses you want its still only gonna sell for 60 bucks a quarter....


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## mmjmon (May 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> That is certainly not what I said about Jorge and RC Clarke, I didn't suggest in the slightest that they don't know anything.
> 
> You posted a quote and video from Jorge where he says that there is science behind what he is saying about not pulling off leaves, I'm just asking to see this science?
> 
> ...



How I read it was the flower clusters would be small and atrophied if there are no large leaves to shade them.

I also picked up on the statement "_Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will not grow any larger._" which I interpreted to mean, if you defoliate those large leaves, your plant has to work hard to produce the food energy rather than use what it has stored. Sounding like the plant isn't wasting energy to maintain the leaves, it wastes the energy to produce the food meaning the buds would suffer under defoliation.


Hmmm. Never thought of it that way. Makes sense though huh?
Oh well, back to the grow. I can't wait to see the results.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> But yes I think there is a lot of wasted space on this thread, see ya all at harvest for the weigh in :O


Agreed. Sorry im in a foul mood after being attacked all day.


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Agreed. Sorry im in a foul mood after being attacked all day.


 What did you decide? are you going to do test out this issue?


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## a senile fungus (May 14, 2014)

You should've just started a grow journal and asked people not to post in it. It would only be you posting and all information would be right there...


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> You should've just started a grow journal and asked people not to post in it. It would only be you posting and all information would be right there...


I still can do that but these asshole would disregard that request. I asked them not to post personal attacks. did they listen? no
I don't need this shit. Life is hard enough.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> What did you decide? are you going to do test out this issue?


yeah of course. I didn't start the experiment on the condition that strangers on the interwebs would be nice to me. I started it for knowledge. I will gain some. they can be smug and arrogant someplace else to someone else. not gonna be a target anymore. 
see everyone in TNT


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## neo12345 (May 14, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> I posted the science, the function of a leaf. Jorge points his finger at the camera, sternly says "leave the leaves on" and it's like talking to a brick wall with some. Look, you don't want to understand botany, you'll ignore it in favor of group bullshit which revolves around trends, hearsay and anecdotal evidence.
> 
> Sure can. Mel Franks Insiders Guide. He published many correctly done empirical scientific studies done by the U. of Mississippi on cannabis.
> 
> ...


You also appear to be avoiding my questions UncleBen?

The function of a leaf is slightly different from what we are discussing, there is no mention of defoliation in that Wikipedia article?

A man waving his finger is not scientific evidence, he mentions it but doesn't produce any evidence to back it up. 

Why is it when I ask difficult questions I suddenly don't want to learn? I'm trying to understand the argument against defoliation, but it doesn't really stack up.

You're suggesting that I changed RC Clarke's book that he wrote? That's just being silly, I just highlighted a few words. You'll have to ask him why he mentions Chlorosis, I didn't write the article he did!



Uncle Ben said:


> RC Clark (who exposes the stoner myth of leafing) is THE authority on cannabis culture and breeding.


So Jorge and RC don't have the evidence, but now you're saying Mel Franks has? I've just googled 'Mel Franks' and the words defoliation and deleafing, but can't find any reference to any work he has done in this field. 

Are you able to post some links to his publications?


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Who??? Hopefully not me and my friendly banter





OscarLaGrouch said:


> yeah of course. I didn't start the experiment on the condition that strangers on the interwebs would be nice to me. I started it for knowledge. I will gain some. they can be smug and arrogant someplace else to someone else. not gonna be a target anymore.
> see everyone in TNT


I was just asking, if you want knowledge than we share that. Don't snap at people that ask a question....


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> You also appear to be avoiding my questions UncleBen?
> I've just googled 'Mel Franks' and the words defoliation and deleafing, but can't find any reference to any work he has done in this field.
> 
> Are you able to post some links to his publications?


they don't have any evidence either. he said go buy mel franks book but there would be something on the internet about 
mel franks defoliation etc and he ignored MY question which was:

Does the book contain info on defoliation and its affect on yield?
Crickets. 

Why? cuz they can't produce any research either. They are just arrogant fucks looking for a fight on the internet. I'm not gonna give it to them. However if the yields are significantly greater in the defol and I replicate that result, I'm gonna post that shit in his face.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> I was just asking, if you want knowledge than we share that. Don't snap at people that ask a question....


its just a statement. nobody snapped


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## MaineMooseRider (May 14, 2014)

Well I'm sorry these guys have ruined your thread. I wanted to see the results. I have been reading Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana growers handbook and pages 344 - 353 talk about pruning. He says "sometimes a few fan leaves block light from a large section of a plant. These leaves can be removed if, on the whole, the plant receives better distribution of light."

So to me pruning-defoliating is same thing. If you are smart about it and you think that removing a few leaves or lollipoping the underside of a plant will give you better overall results I say do it. That's what I am going to do and if I fuck my plants up and get nothing it isnt any skin of anybody's ass but mine. My time, money and effort.

Good luck Oscer


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## neo12345 (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> they don't have any evidence either. he said go buy mel franks book but there would be something on the internet about
> mel franks defoliation etc and he ignored MY question which was:
> 
> Does the book contain info on defoliation and its affect on yield?


I found this book by Mel Franks and Ed Rosenthal online called the Marijuana Growers Guide: http://www.resonant.org/text/marijuana_growers_guide.html#c5_1

*Chapter 8.6*

"Cutting the growing shoots *or removing some leaves does not harm the plants*. Plants are well adapted to the loss of parts to predators, wind, etc., in the natural world. When leaves are damaged or lost, the plant plugs the wound. The leaf isn't replaced or repaired, but new leaves are continually being formed from the growing shoots. The stem, since it connects all parts of the plant, is more important to the plant as a whole. When the stem breaks or creases, it is capable of repair. You can help the plant repair its stem by splinting the wound or somehow propping the stem up straight. Stems take about four or five days to heal."


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

just spoke with another veteran grower today
he defoliates in the third week as well. he said when you remove a mature fan leaf, the younger leaves above it draw more nutrients to themselves, creating a vacuum that actually pulls nutrients up through the plant.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

someone convinced me to continue the thread
I will do it on one condition:

everyone that values this thread agrees to block or ignore the following members:

caretakerdad
chuck esteves
Uncle Ben
woody333333
dodgydan

others may be warned that they will be added to this list.

if you don't put them on your ignore list, at least don't respond to their posts. they will get bored and fuck off. I am sure that we can do our own research on the pros and cons, but we already know there isn't much in the way of actual research that has been done on this question. if there were, I wouldn't be doing this thread. 

put up good info that you find even if it doesn't point to increasing yields or other desirable results. 
we don't need their input. they have an agenda and they are just clogging up the thread with insults and bullshit.

bullshit posts trying to bait us into arguments will be deleted


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

MaineMooseRider said:


> Well I'm sorry these guys have ruined your thread. I wanted to see the results. I have been reading Ed Rosenthal's Marijuana growers handbook and pages 344 - 353 talk about pruning. He says "sometimes a few fan leaves block light from a large section of a plant. These leaves can be removed if, on the whole, the plant receives better distribution of light."
> 
> So to me pruning-defoliating is same thing. If you are smart about it and you think that removing a few leaves or lollipoping the underside of a plant will give you better overall results I say do it. That's what I am going to do and if I fuck my plants up and get nothing it isnt any skin of anybody's ass but mine. My time, money and effort.
> 
> Good luck Oscer


I'm gonna stick around. if you don't know those antagonists, put them on your ignore list. I don't want anymore distractions and bullshit diluting my thread. 
if you can handle the risk, take it.
you've seen my 5g buds. I got those by mainlining my plants as outlined earlier in this thread. start in veg and continue up til the third week of flower. then leave them alone. if you like or need to you can defoliate gradually in the last two weeks. I do this to prevent bud rot and increase light penetration into the canopy.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

I talked to another veteran grower today and asked his opinion on defol
he said 

#1 cannabis naturally doesn't produce many leaves but the synthetic nutrients we give them support growth and that also means extra leaf growth
#2 everything in indoor growing creates stress so defol is but one of many stresses
#3 when you remove fan leaves, the younger leaves above it draw nutrients which effectively creates demand from nutrients and draws them up through the plant
#4 plants evolved to shed leaves naturally through animal vectors and wind. they will be fine to lose a few


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> Better yet, this is my fall crop ready to go in the ground next week, any tips on raping them for a better yield? Depending on the strain these will produce between 2-5 pounds of top shelf bud perhaps pulling off the leaves I could get 7-10?


 Are those going into the ground? That might get you 10. I miss the outdoor grow


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## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> Are those going into the ground? That might get you 10. I miss the outdoor grow


All medical, all legal, and most of the product goes to making RSO for cancer patients, God I Love America.


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## burgertime2010 (May 14, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> All medical, all legal, and most of the product goes to making RSO for cancer patients, God I Love America.


RSO? I am disabled and looking for the right strain to do the same except for epileptics. It is a potent high CBD and THC strain I am after. Oddly, It will not get you stoned once I am done with it.....


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

mmjmon said:


> How I read it was the flower clusters would be small and atrophied if there are no large leaves to shade them.
> 
> I also picked up on the statement "_Removal of shade leaves does facilitate more light reaching the center of the plant, but if there is not enough food energy produced in the leaves, the small internal floral clusters will not grow any larger._" which I interpreted to mean, if you defoliate those large leaves, your plant has to work hard to produce the food energy rather than use what it has stored. Sounding like the plant isn't wasting energy to maintain the leaves, it wastes the energy to produce the food meaning the buds would suffer under defoliation.
> 
> ...


as I understand, a pair of leaves powers whatever is directly above it and everything else. If there was nothing else really powering a small branch at that point, I left the fan leaf at the node. I felt it was needed. once the additional new leaves are of sufficient size, I would not hesitate to take the fan leaf if I thought it would benefit light or air circulation. if you take the leaf and there is nothing else to power the branch, then that might be an issue. then the plant has to do some translocation to feed that branch. if anyone finds something on this question, please post it.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> RSO? I am disabled and looking for the right strain to do the same except for epileptics. It is a potent high CBD and THC strain I am after. Oddly, It will not get you stoned once I am done with it.....


burger this is not the place and whomever you are talking to is not welcome here. ignore those guys if you don't want to get added to the 'banned list' yourself. last warning


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 14, 2014)

burgertime2010 said:


> RSO? I am disabled and looking for the right strain to do the same except for epileptics. It is a potent high CBD and THC strain I am after. Oddly, It will not get you stoned once I am done with it.....


THESE POSTS ARE NOT RELEVANT TO THE THREAD. PRIVATE MESSAGE HIM


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## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> View attachment 3153001 View attachment 3153002



How about lab testing and peer review? 









Sorry about the poor quality of the picture but the bubbler that I got as a trophy is an extraordinarily beautiful and intricate piece of work. Notice that the words are imbedded in the knobs which are just over an inch in diameter. Call me when you win a cup.


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## CaretakerDad (May 14, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I am not really a fan of a super close trim. maybe that's my weakness, the trim. when you have so much you do a crappy job to get thru it.



I have this in my garage, shouldn't a big time grower like you has one of these too?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

if anyone wants to get back to the subject at hand, let me know


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## Sativied (May 15, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> *its my fucking thread *you jerk and youre talking to a guy who has done nothing but insult me about a subject that has nothing to do with the topic. stupid fuck
> *if anyone else posts anything in response to the aforementioned individuals I will abandon the thread and keep my results to myself*


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## chuck estevez (May 15, 2014)




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## Maine Buds (May 15, 2014)

I would be interested in the result my self. I defoliate but only take leaves that are directly blocking light. I took a bunch of leaves off a few plants one time and the harvest was crap. Im sure it was because of heat. I don't see why such a subject is so heated. Respect the thread . You have something to say that's not about the subject just start another thread. Simple simple. I hate when someone starts and experiment but then the thread gets abandoned cause testosterone is fueling argument around here. Everyone should just chill and smoke a little herb. After all we're just trying to learn!


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## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2014)

No shit, shame on him. (Well put!) Sheesh, it's the internet for Christ's sake.



burgertime2010 said:


> You have a lot of nerve threatening to ban me for talking about anything I choose. That is truly saddening. Get a grip, you ban anyone even though they have done nothing, All you are is a sad little bitch. Ban me and you just prove everything I have said. What happened to this site where a pipsqueak can tell people who to talk to. It is not a coincidence that you are always in battle and have to kick people out of your precious forum. You should be defoliated. We are in America and on a website about herb, so what if I talk about something else for a moment, people get distracted. The irony is you banning me would absolutely have zero affect......this thread is secondhand news and everybody is bored with it. Your little warning is a death rattle that cant be heard because the leaves are thick enough to block out crybabies. Ban me......I dare you. If you cared about knowledge you would be wise to leave me be. Shame on you.


Yep, knowing this place if he was smart he would have done a journal with photos over time, THEN, published the results AFTER the fact. That's what I did with the Griffin's Spin-Out thread many moons ago at OG, which was edited and formatted by a senior mod, and then posted for all to see. Instead, this attention whore comes in here knowing full well this is one of the most heated topics between the horticultural guys and noobs who are hell bent on trends and tricks, and after the uproar wants everyone silenced that disagrees with his approach.

Can't have it both ways Oscar. Burgertime2010 nailed you to the floor.


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## dodgydan (May 15, 2014)

defoliation is like shaving your pubes to cut a long story short. You dont want a big bush but you dont want your shit bald


OscarLaGrouch said:


> someone convinced me to continue the thread
> I will do it on one condition:
> 
> everyone that values this thread agrees to block or ignore the following members:
> ...


thats not very nice I only posted one thing as a joke... youv gone and hurt my feelings now


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## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2014)

Oscar, just some friendly advice. This is how you should present your experiment: https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/ 

Folks, note in the last photo the heavy bud development at lower levels. My ladies were crammed against one another, leaves covering leaves and budsites, and all leaves are healthy and retained which puts to rest the all pervasive hype that the budsites require direct light. It simply is NOT true. I have posted many other photos in past defol threads reflecting the same truism.

Find a mod or ask potroast to help you edit it and then post it when you think it's ready for prime time. Then take comments....and chill. Life's too short.

Good luck


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## chuck estevez (May 15, 2014)

I think oscar should leave the experiments for more mentally stable minds, Just my 2 cents


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## dodgydan (May 15, 2014)

We hear ya oscar


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## neo12345 (May 15, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Oscar, just some friendly advice. This is how you should present your experiment: https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/spin-out-for-chemical-root-pruning.9114/
> Folks, note in the last photo the heavy bud development at lower levels. My ladies were crammed against one another, leaves covering leaves and budsites, and all leaves are healthy and retained which puts to rest the all pervasive hype that the budsites require direct light. It simply is NOT true. I have posted many other photos in past defol threads reflecting the same truism.


Now THAT is how you do a scientific experiment Oscar, notice the men and women walking around in lab coats and safety specs. In the space age lab, with highly calibrated bottles of wine. 

You should be growing from seed too and not using clones, as we all know that plants grown from seeds are exactly the same and clones can vary wildly.

Growing different varieties will help you get better results too, because you can just pick a better yielding plant to go up against your one control plant. 

The one control plant that you have should also be a random seed that you have no idea as to what it is, this is not very important to be able to make comparisons as you don't have to show the pic of the finished control plant anyway so don't worry.

Then show us the one good plant you have, and only photograph the top section of the plant. Don't show the yellow immature buds below that which were not getting any light under that thick canopy, the ones that are not usable for anything more than bubble hash.

You've spent the last few days telling us that Oscar's experiment is not valid because it's not being done in a high tech lab, yet your own experiment is so full of holes it's laughable. It's got more holes than a Smart Pot!! 

When questioned about the possible effect on health of using such a chemical in a plant that is smoked and ingested, you tried to convince everyone that it's perfectly safe based on your own personal theory about it!! 

At least Oscar is risking nothing but his own personal yield by doing this experiment, and good luck to him I say.


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## CaretakerDad (May 15, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Now THAT is how you do a scientific experiment Oscar, notice the men and women walking around in lab coats and safety specs. In the space age lab, with highly calibrated bottles of wine.
> 
> You should be growing from seed too and not using clones, as we all know that plants grown from seeds are exactly the same and clones can vary wildly.
> 
> ...




REALLY NEO ??????

Allow me to be the first to inform you that your opening statement is a monumental testament to your ignorance. Clones by their very nature are EXACT GENETIC DUPLICATES of the mother they are taken from. I can show you 2 groups of clones one Trainwreck (12) and the other G-13 (20) they are identical in every way including their height and structure with some slight variation for the amount of sunlight each plant gets. Seeds on the other hand are products of 2 randomly selected sets of genetic markers from each parent and EVERY SINGLE SEED will show some variation. This would be 2 to 10,000 seeds from the same plant........all slightly (and some greatly) different. Please stop riding without a helmet.


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## a senile fungus (May 15, 2014)

Neo's post was dripping with sarcasm. He obviously knows that a clone is, guess what?, identical to its mother!

Stop taking yourself so seriously!


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## neo12345 (May 15, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> REALLY NEO ??????
> 
> Allow me to be the first to inform you that your opening statement is a monumental testament to your ignorance. Clones by their very nature are EXACT GENETIC DUPLICATES of the mother they are taken from. I can show you 2 groups of clones one Trainwreck (12) and the other G-13 (20) they are identical in every way including their height and structure with some slight variation for the amount of sunlight each plant gets. Seeds on the other hand are products of 2 randomly selected sets of genetic markers from each parent and EVERY SINGLE SEED will show some variation. This would be 2 to 10,000 seeds from the same plant........all slightly (and some greatly) different. Please stop riding without a helmet.


Yes I think you missed the sarcastic nature of my post, do you think I wasn't obvious enough? 

If you'd been paying attention to this thread you would have noticed that Uncle Ben's experiment was from seed, and Oscar is using clones. So really you should be giving Uncle Ben that information.

No need to apologise, we all jump to the keyboard too fast sometimes.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

Sativied said:


>


Thanks for reminding me

Sativied is banned too. He has a stupid screen bame anyway


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

Its ego
They probably cant find their dicks with a mirror.


Maine Buds said:


> I would be interested in the result my self. I defoliate but only take leaves that are directly blocking light. I took a bunch of leaves off a few plants one time and the harvest was crap. Im sure it was because of heat. I don't see why such a subject is so heated. Respect the thread . You have something to say that's not about the subject just start another thread. Simple simple. I hate when someone starts and experiment but then the thread gets abandoned cause testosterone is fueling argument around here. Everyone should just chill and smoke a little herb. After all we're just trying to learn!


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

I just defol'd my other plants in Week 7. I started from the bottom and took out every think underneath. 
I took out everything crowding the colas. That way i avoid the risk of bud rot on my fat gorgeous colas. I also provided great light penetration to the lower flowers for the last three weeks. All the leaves that are remaining can continue to power the frost explosion happening right now. I also reduce the amount of leaf material i have to remove at chop. As well as reduce the number of leaves rhe plants have to drain nutrients from during flush. Nice tasty buds that will dry to a white ash without the buildup of minerals messing up the taste. 
How its done. The best way.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

My experiment is totally valid. Totally.


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## chuck estevez (May 15, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> My experiment is totally valid,in my mind.Totally.


 Fixed it for ya.


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## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Now THAT is how you do a scientific experiment Oscar, notice the men and women walking around in lab coats and safety specs. In the space age lab, with highly calibrated bottles of wine.


 my experiment is verifiable, Oscar's is not. With mine, you either witness the root pruning effect, or you don't. Recommend you get some new eyeglasses. With Oscar's there are many variables that can and will skew the results including a human pre-dispostion to see what we want to see.

My photos speak for themselves - budsites don't need light to get hefty. If you marijuana nerds would spend some time checking out the other defol threads you'd get it. I posted plenty of photos to verify this fact.

I guess if someone says it on the internet and someone repeats it (and gawd do they) then it must be true.

UB


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

CONGRATULATIONS TO THE DEFOLIHATERS FOR DESTROYING THE THREAD 
YOU MUST BE SO PROUD.

to everyone else, I will be in my journal


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

Izoc666 said:


> Oscar, they're right about your scientific method, which you don't have one. This is more experiment, hopefully it will open your eyes , when you will understand more clear when you know how to make this plant TICK.I highly recommend you to read this information for plant's needshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_nutrition
> Finally, with respect, I don't think this thread have any merit to become sticky.
> If you really have a respect for this MMJ community then do the right way and give newbies a simple tool.
> 
> Peace


does it look like I don't know how to make this plant TICK?
LMAO


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## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> does it look like I don't know how to make this plant TICK?
> LMAO


Man, those plants are yellow. Recommend more N.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

shit my lab cost 20 thousand dollars to build. it's probably on the top rung of the ladder of 4K rooms. I have a degree in botany and I've worked in a lab. I know how to run an experiment. everything is constant. there is only one variable. good enough for me. 


neo12345 said:


> Now THAT is how you do a scientific experiment Oscar, notice the men and women walking around in lab coats and safety specs. In the space age lab, with highly calibrated bottles of wine.
> 
> You should be growing from seed too and not using clones, as we all know that plants grown from seeds are exactly the same and clones can vary wildly.
> 
> ...


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

more pix


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

status report 
I have to concede that the undefol tray (B) does look thicker than A. that's to be expected. does it look more robust than the defol tray? maybe. the pics from the last post were taken two days ago.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

haters: I CAN'T HEAR YOU....
let's try this again:

the thread will be around long after these petty squabbles.
It's here to help ppl learn.
It's ok to be a disbeliever but let the experiment sink or swim on it's own merit
it doesn't need negative comments.
opinions about defol can be kept until the experiment is completed.


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## Nizza (May 15, 2014)

hey oscar to make things fair, i suggest you give bottom/side lighting. this would show that the over-vegged plants will be getting "enough" light as would the "defoliated"

honestly i do chop out the bottom 6-12" depending on plant size, just so that a nice channel of air will come underneath the foliage and rise up through it to my exhaust. My intake is below my hanging air pots. My last grow is on this page and you'll see what i mean. I don't see it as "defoliating" but more like selective growing, as all of that is done during veg time and i don't re-bury my plants deeper every time i transplant, maybe the first transplant out of the dixie though.

defoliation in my eyes is defined as pinching off any fan leaves or leaves longer than my pinky finger, to show the bare stalk.
the pictures posted i think aren't as extreme of a defoliation as i'm used to seeing but at the same time i still wouldn't take anything off the top

hate is a strong word, i just really do my best to guide people in what i think is the best path, with the though of, well if you somehow prove my thoughts wrong then I will learn something and still not regret trying to help out

relax guys, just understand each other's points and stand where you want


----------



## Nizza (May 15, 2014)

oh yeah and what i'm saying is, is what might happen in the "thicker tray" is it might not end up getting enough light. if both plants were recieving more than optimal sq footage of light i think it would balance things out


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

Nizza said:


> hey oscar to make things fair, i suggest you give bottom/side lighting. this would show that the over-vegged plants will be getting "enough" light as would the "defoliated"
> 
> honestly i do chop out the bottom 6-12" depending on plant size, just so that a nice channel of air will come underneath the foliage and rise up through it to my exhaust. My intake is below my hanging air pots. My last grow is on this page and you'll see what i mean. I don't see it as "defoliating" but more like selective growing, as all of that is done during veg time and i don't re-bury my plants deeper every time i transplant, maybe the first transplant out of the dixie though.
> 
> ...


Niz
with all respect,
nothing was overvegged. all plants were cloned at the same time and put into the room before they had five nodes. all plants were topped to the 5th node. all plants were vegged in the flower room for three weeks, not long enough to over veg. the canopy would be way thicker if they were overvegged. they are all getting the same amount of light. I'm not buying anymore shit for this room. i think things ARE 'fair'. I did mainline and defol the subcanopy. pics posted. I am doing selective defol not total defol. the criteria for which has already been posted. I consult with three veteran growers with 15 years or more exp each and I am using their method. 
I am not departing from that. adding side lighting would change the dynamics of the experiment.
to reiterate: tray A plants defol day 15 and both trays defol last two weeks to prevent bud rot. selective defol of A every sunday as per criteria.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

Nizza said:


> oh yeah and what i'm saying is, is what might happen in the "thicker tray" is it might not end up getting enough light. if both plants were receiving more than optimal sq footage of light i think it would balance things out


thats kind of the crux of the experiment. how does defol affect yield? not defoliating may be detrimental due to light penetration issues. maybe not. we shall see. if you add side lighting you defeat the purpose because you are compensating for the lack of defoliation. the defoliated plants will not benefit from this so the advantage will be handed to the nondefol group. I will continue to ponder this. sounds like another separate experiment. 
thanks for the input tho.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

as I think about this, your idea makes sense. more than optimal light would eliminate light being the issue. now you are talking about isolating the plants physiological response to defol. def gonna try that in a future run. thanks.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)




----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)




----------



## CaretakerDad (May 15, 2014)

neo12345 said:


> Yes I think you missed the sarcastic nature of my post, do you think I wasn't obvious enough?
> 
> If you'd been paying attention to this thread you would have noticed that Uncle Ben's experiment was from seed, and Oscar is using clones. So really you should be giving Uncle Ben that information.
> 
> No need to apologise, we all jump to the keyboard too fast sometimes.



You are a known defoliator and have no business trying to cover up stupid statements with "I was being sarcastic". No apologies proffered.


----------



## waterdawg (May 15, 2014)

dodgydan said:


> defoliation is like shaving your pubes to cut a long story short. You dont want a big bush but you dont want your shit bald
> 
> 
> thats not very nice I only posted one thing as a joke... youv gone and hurt my feelings now


----------



## waterdawg (May 15, 2014)

Me too!!! Hurt my feelings


----------



## waterdawg (May 15, 2014)

"


CaretakerDad said:


> I have this in my garage, shouldn't a big time grower like you has one of these too?
> 
> View attachment 3153366


I should have bought that one!!! It has a lid lol. I dropped my scissors into my trim-pro first time I used it and had to go to hospital lol.


----------



## waterdawg (May 15, 2014)

Oh shit no friendly banter allowed!!! Sorry!!!


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> Neo's post was dripping with sarcasm. He obviously knows that a clone is, guess what?, identical to its mother!
> 
> Stop taking yourself so seriously!


Woke up this morning and read neo's post before my coffee. As i read, i #facepalm like none of this is true! Wuuuut is neo saying? Then i read fungus' response and my sense of irony woke up. Dont know what he was mocking but i am glad he mocked it. 
Outside the U of Miss, my room is the closest thing to a lab canna grow testing could ever see. I just need a white coat.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Oh shit no friendly banter allowed!!! Sorry!!!


Friendly banter is fine. With the enemy? That goes over my head. Half the convo is lost on me.


----------



## a senile fungus (May 15, 2014)

CaretakerDad said:


> You are a known defoliator and have no business trying to cover up stupid statements with "I was being sarcastic". No apologies proffered.


Out of the whole sarcastic and witty post that neo put up, the only issue that you felt that you had to address was the clone/seed thing?

Hahaha


----------



## a senile fungus (May 15, 2014)

@oscar

I looked over in grow journals, I didn't see anything.

When you start it I would send a message to the mod in that area and let her know that you don't want anyone posting in the journal but you.

Then we can continue the fun in this thread. Hope that sounds good


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 15, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> @oscar
> 
> I looked over in grow journals, I didn't see anything.
> 
> ...


Oscar's .. https://www.rollitup.org/Journal/oscarlagrouch.876797/
I cut and pasted (everything worth the effort) into it this am. Not much there lol.
Fuck the haters put them on the ignore list. The sooner no one engages them, the sooner it will be worth stikkying.


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2014)

Did some enabling mod shit head delete all the 8 photos I posted showing robust lower buds that puts to rest the lies that budsites need light?

In the name of truth and cannabis education, shame on you!


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 15, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> View attachment 3153867


Botanist at work.


----------



## Nizza (May 15, 2014)

that is kind of lame i mean it is a debatable topic, the pics should be shown so that people can see all sides of the argument
ben i wanted to mention your pics aren't working in your 2 or 4 main cola tutorial page


----------



## mmjmon (May 15, 2014)

Nizza said:


> that is kind of lame i mean it is a debatable topic, the pics should be shown so that people can see all sides of the argument



That's the point. This isn't about a thread debating a topic. This is a thread to see how 2 grows grown in the same space and time in two different ways turns out. Good or bad, it doesn't matter.... 

This is about one grower sharing his results to anyone interested in viewing what happens when he does this or that. 

Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show... or simply change the channel if you are not interested.


----------



## waterdawg (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Friendly banter is fine. With the enemy? That goes over my head. Half the convo is lost on me.


Make up your mind Oscar! Two pages ago I was told to take my banter else where! Toke and talk I believe lol. But nice to see its calmed down here a bit! Just perhaps, maybe stop trying to defend this as a truly scientific study, and just report the progress of the grow (which is the main goal) as I and others first thought this was about! You'll not win the legitimacy argument IMO. As for all the I can grow better than you can bullshit from everyone well who gives a shit lol.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Make up your mind Oscar! Two pages ago I was told to take my banter else where! Toke and talk I believe lol. But nice to see its calmed down here a bit! Just perhaps, maybe stop trying to defend this as a truly scientific study, and just report the progress of the grow (which is the main goal) as I and others first thought this was about! You'll not win the legitimacy argument IMO. As for all the I can grow better than you can bullshit from everyone well who gives a shit lol.


dawg, i wan't talking to you; I was talking to burgertime. yapping on about CBDs and whatnot. having no respect for the thread topic and entertaining ppl who only want to tear down what I am trying to build. sorry bruh. not you. this is not jibber jabber toke n talk. this is an experiment. it's already diluted enough that ppl lost interest. fuck!

show me a more legitimate study on the subject. apart from the micro-climates around each individual plant, this is a controlled study. the light and the hormonal response of plants? all can be isolated with a series of experiments. show me a better research project. 

i'll be waiting.

a long time. 

OlG


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Nizza said:


> that is kind of lame i mean it is a debatable topic, the pics should be shown so that people can see all sides of the argument
> ben i wanted to mention your pics aren't working in your 2 or 4 main cola tutorial page



two main colas? what is this? the 60s? my average plant has ... let me go count...
4 to 8
I am happy to take pic requests. sorry for typos as my fingers are stickkking to the key boarrd. 
LIKE SUPER GLUE STICKING

hit me


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

https://www.rollitup.org/Journal/oscarlagrouch.876797/

le Journal de la Grouch


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

letter to the editor:

https://www.rollitup.org/t/my-role-as-a-junior-mod-nice-to-meet-you-all.462741/page-4#post-10505999


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Maine Buds said:


> I would be interested in the result my self. I defoliate but only take leaves that are directly blocking light. I took a bunch of leaves off a few plants one time and the harvest was crap. Im sure it was because of heat. I don't see why such a subject is so heated. Respect the thread . You have something to say that's not about the subject just start another thread. Simple simple. I hate when someone starts and experiment but then the thread gets abandoned cause testosterone is fueling argument around here. Everyone should just chill and smoke a little herb. After all we're just trying to learn!


*ego*
most of what people do results from them succumbing to their ego. they roll around like little robots, with egos seeking to justify themselves. I have a book that is so good I own two copies _A New Earth by _Eckhart Tolle.

from it:
_"If there are other people around, preferably your partner or a close family member, the pain-body will attempt to provoke them--push their buttons, as the expression goes--so it can feed on the ensuing drama. It is hard to resist another person's pain-body that is determined to draw you into a reaction. Instinctively it knows your weakest, most vulnerable points. If it doesn't succeed the first time, it will try and try again. It's raw emotion looking for more emotion. The other person's pain-body wants to awaken yours so that both pain-bodies can mutually energize the other." _

Oprah's book club is no joke, bruh.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> does it look like I don't know how to make this plant TICK?
> LMAO


*TICK TOCK YA DON'T STOP*


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Nizza said:


> that is kind of lame i mean it is a debatable topic, the pics should be shown so that people can see all sides of the argument
> ben i wanted to mention your pics aren't working in your 2 or 4 main cola tutorial page


niz i will photo graph whatever you request. it will be in my journal. 

OSCAR'S GROW JOURNAL
https://www.rollitup.org/Journal/oscarlagrouch.876797/

name it


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> they don't have any evidence either. he said go buy mel franks book but there would be something on the internet about
> mel franks defoliation etc and he ignored MY question which was:
> 
> Does the book contain info on defoliation and its affect on yield?
> ...


Growan likes this and he's a DefoliHater too. 

Can't we all just get along?
~Rodney King


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Oh shit no friendly banter allowed!!! Sorry!!!


friendly banter with whom? are you talking to your imaginary friends again?
talk to your REAL friends. US.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

a senile fungus said:


> @oscar
> 
> I looked over in grow journals, I didn't see anything.
> 
> ...


check it
https://www.rollitup.org/Journal/oscarlagrouch.876797/


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

mmjmon said:


> That's the point. This isn't about a thread debating a topic. This is a thread to see how 2 grows grown in the same space and time in two different ways turns out. Good or bad, it doesn't matter....
> 
> This is about one grower sharing his results to anyone interested in viewing what happens when he does this or that.
> 
> Sit back, relax, and enjoy the show... or simply change the channel if you are not interested.


the haters are trying to take over the thread and MAKE IT about debating the topic. in Congress it's called a filibuster. you basically talk until people get bored, leave and go elsewhere, thereby diverting attention and creating an effective distraction.
the more you engage them, the more they win. and you are helping them kill this thread.

*wake up*


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Make up your mind Oscar! Two pages ago I was told to take my banter else where! Toke and talk I believe lol. But nice to see its calmed down here a bit! Just perhaps, maybe stop trying to defend this as a truly scientific study, and just report the progress of the grow (which is the main goal) as I and others first thought this was about! You'll not win the legitimacy argument IMO. As for all the I can grow better than you can bullshit from everyone well who gives a shit lol.


stop talking to them and stop posting blank posts. geez 
for fucks sake.


----------



## Growan (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> Growan likes this and he's a DefoliHater too.
> 
> Can't we all just get along?
> ~Rodney King


Yup. I pretty much stand in the 'leaf it alone' camp. See what I did there? Funny huh?
I personally don't have the 'resources' to spare to risk fucking up my crop by pulling off all the leaves of my plants, I've only got a 120x120 space to play in at the moment, and I'm gonna keep it simple in there.
That's the reason I'm subbed to this thread. Let Oscar do the work, take the risk and foot the bill. I recon I'm smart enough to see any holes in the experiment and use that knowledge to form my conclusions.
I don't find Oscars approach preachy, ego driven or trying to produce skewed results.
My expectations? Table with leaves will out produce the defoliated. We'll see.

I thought the title of the thread was pretty straight forward. 'effect of defoliation', not 'I'm gonna prove the benefits of...' 
Under this level of scrutiny and oposition I don't imagine Oscar would even try and influence the results even if he were trying to prove something that goes against (my) common sense and botanical right thinking.

Carry on. I'm watching...


----------



## waterdawg (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> stop talking to them and stop posting blank posts. geez
> for fucks sake.


Sorry! Big fingers, small keyboard. Might I suggest abandoning this thread and spending some time developing a stress reducing strain! I know! I know! Banned!


----------



## waterdawg (May 16, 2014)

Actually Oscar thats exactly what I've been telling you! Stop talking to them! Be a little less of a dick!


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2014)

View attachment 3153781

View attachment 3153783

View attachment 3153785


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> View attachment 3153781
> 
> View attachment 3153783
> 
> View attachment 3153785


Try again bud can't see anything!


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Just explained the inner workings of RIU in another forum in response to a member there that said this thread is a "trainwreck": I'll start a thread in this forum but based on the tawdry politics at play here, I'm not holding my breath about it sticking. This aint about education, it's about politics and popularity contests.
> _
> Dishonest as the day is long complete with deleted posts and banning members who challenge his bullshit. I had one guy (neo, a defoliator) lodge a bunch of insults so I countered with 6 photos showing lower nuggets, some bigger than the ones above which grew in a crowded canopy, leaves over leaves, leaves over budsites. The photos and my post was deleted.
> 
> ...


So what you are saying is that the bud site it self does not necessarily need direct sunlight to develop just as well as the rest of the buds that are in direct light?


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

I'm not a noob but my common sense say if there is a bud sight being shade by a leaf I will remove it. cause it looks much healthier to me and that's what seems right. Now raping the plant of say more then 1/3 of the leave is not a good idea.


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2014)

Maine Buds said:


> So what you are saying is that the bud site it self does not necessarily need direct sunlight to develop just as well as the rest of the buds that are in direct light?


Of course not --> https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Of course not --> https://www.rollitup.org/t/no-lower-budsites-do-not-need-light-to-develop-get-educated.829061/


I'm not really in the mood for reading another 20 odd page thread. ( with the same argument) perhaps later but could you sum it up?


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> You want me to do your homework? Click on the god damn thread and most are too lazy to read, got pictures for da kiddies!


No I want you to tell me what you already stated in another thread. I don't need to do home work. Now hostility from you is unwanted. I see why nothing gets done around here


----------



## killemsoftly (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> You want me to do your homework? Well, I'm not in the mood. Click on the god damn thread. Most are too lazy to read so I gots pictures for da kiddies!


Why not let the man work in peace?
What is there to fear?

Go in peace


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2014)

Maine Buds said:


> No I want you to tell me what you already stated in another thread. I don't need to do home work.


Really? (and folks, this is how Obama got elected)


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

Personally just from the 4 mins I have talked to you you seem like an ignorant ass to me. I apologize to oscar for my rudeness but he is right to be upset . You were asked a simple ? And if you can't repeat a simple few sentences from your own knowledge then I would say it was not your to begin with! Ending this now thank you for such a wonderful introduction! Lmfao


----------



## lilroach (May 16, 2014)

And so yet another thread turns to crap as the name-calling continues.

If I were to do an experiment about the pluses and minuses of defoliating....I would do it without starting a thread until the experiment is complete.....THEN post it. I would document everything I did along the way. This way the crap that always happens on these threads can happen only after the experiment is finished.


----------



## bird mcbride (May 16, 2014)

I say at the end of week ten or so...chop everything off that sticks straight up and all the fans too.
Every 12/12d seedling gets snipped at sixs nodes, taking the 4.5"-7" snip for a clone 24/0.
Rooted clones go from the 24/0d bin into the 12/12 table unaltered. If at some point in the grow the light hogging snips will be LST'ed by tipping them by the roots into a more desirable position while the rock is flooded. After this technique has maxed out then it is ok to remove a few fans to let bud sites ripen up. SOG
I believe that 36 square feet of budding area is like max for a 1kw hps. I can max the reflectors out to this but usually the reflective plastic is in closer.
I don't really care for hindering the cloned budders because I know that if I don't screw with them too much I will get a faster crop.
It's an entirely different deal in the green room


----------



## haulinbass (May 16, 2014)

Why is the advanced cultivation forum always the site for the worst arguments over the stupidest shit?

Maybe i just dont give a shit about how anyone is growing or i just find it more interesting talking about strains themselves, but arguing about the easiest part of growing( the actual growth of the plant) when things like enviroment control and plant selection are basicly what actually matter are never spoke of.


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

You my sir sound more like a baby . I don't have to explain my self to an arrogant ass like your self who would rather hug the nuts of a retard then have an opinion of his own. This thread started out as an experiment and you jackasses turned it into school yard bullshit. Some of use are here to learn .


----------



## Uncle Ben (May 16, 2014)

What in the hell was THAT?


----------



## chuck estevez (May 16, 2014)

Maine Buds said:


> First of all I'm not a kid and am no way a noob I'm probably older then you. And your thread is a fucking joke. 20 mins really good job you want a medal. Shitty pics of all top buds.


And no one is older than UB.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Growan said:


> Yup. I pretty much stand in the 'leaf it alone' camp. See what I did there? Funny huh?
> I personally don't have the 'resources' to spare to risk fucking up my crop by pulling off all the leaves of my plants, I've only got a 120x120 space to play in at the moment, and I'm gonna keep it simple in there.
> That's the reason I'm subbed to this thread. Let Oscar do the work, take the risk and foot the bill. I recon I'm smart enough to see any holes in the experiment and use that knowledge to form my conclusions.
> I don't find Oscars approach preachy, ego driven or trying to produce skewed results.
> ...


120 x 120? I'm super Jelly (jealous/envious)
Growan, I'm glad you said you're smart enough to see any holes in the experiment and that I don't really have an agenda.
See, here's someone who doesn't agree with defoliation who is mature enough to observe without ego and acrimony.
Real scientists remain objective.

Take a lesson.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Sorry! Big fingers, small keyboard. Might I suggest abandoning this thread and spending some time developing a stress reducing strain! I know! I know! Banned!


sorry Dawg I'm sorry.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

waterdawg said:


> Actually Oscar thats exactly what I've been telling you! Stop talking to them! Be a little less of a dick!


I'm not talking to 'them'. I put seven people on the ignore list.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Maine Buds said:


> No I want you to tell me what you already stated in another thread. I don't need to do home work. Now hostility from you is unwanted. I see why nothing gets done around here


just stop engaging PLEASE

NO ONE WANTS TO READ A THREAD FILLED WITH ARGUMENTS BUT DEVOID OF INFO


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

I thought of that too late. 

let's just bail on this thread until July.

I'm out. 




lilroach said:


> And so yet another thread turns to crap as the name-calling continues.
> 
> If I were to do an experiment about the pluses and minuses of defoliating....I would do it without starting a thread until the experiment is complete.....THEN post it. I would document everything I did along the way. This way the crap that always happens on these threads can happen only after the experiment is finish


----------



## Maine Buds (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> just stop engaging PLEASE
> 
> NO ONE WANTS TO READ A THREAD FILLED WITH ARGUMENTS BUT DEVOID OF INFO


Sorry man pisses me off I ask a serious ? And get treated like a child. I really want to see the end of your experiment. I 'll be the bigger man and apologize to everyone. Sorry


----------



## Growan (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> 120 x 120? I'm super Jelly (jealous/envious)
> Growan, I'm glad you said you're smart enough to see any holes in the experiment and that I don't really have an agenda.
> See, here's someone who doesn't agree with defoliation who is mature enough to observe without ego and acrimony.
> Real scientists remain objective.
> ...


errrr, 120x120...... cm. should always stats 'tent' to avoid looking likd a twat. K'll remember that! Wasn't thinking when I typed, you boyz are waaay further up than me! Nothing I do is legal, so it's on a different level.
You're right about my attitude to this though. I havn't had chance to read UB's thread yet, but I will. And I'll absorb, and maybe I'll learn


----------



## Hazydat620 (May 16, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> Yo did your mom die today or something? Flame fest! Get yur ticketz...


Nope, just getting tired of negative fucks who think they have solved every mystery of the plant, and go into other peoples threads and talk shit, so they get trolled. Do you really think I come to RIU for growing advice,LOLOLOLOLOL, oh man. I can tell this is the only place you have consumed your knowledge of the plant though, your inexperience oozes from you. 
Is this considered defol? OLG keep doing what your doing.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Growan said:


> errrr, 120x120...... cm. should always stats 'tent' to avoid looking likd a twat. K'll remember that! Wasn't thinking when I typed, you boyz are waaay further up than me! Nothing I do is legal, so it's on a different level.
> You're right about my attitude to this though. I havn't had chance to read UB's thread yet, but I will. And I'll absorb, and maybe I'll learn


oh damn LOL you can tell I think BIG
you're in what country? can you state it? 
You just gave me an idea... to go over to his thread and trash it.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Hazydat620 said:


> Nope, just getting tired of negative fucks who think they have solved every mystery of the plant, and go into other peoples threads and talk shit, so they get trolled. Do you really think I come to RIU for growing advice,LOLOLOLOLOL, oh man. I can tell this is the only place you have consumed your knowledge of the plant though, your inexperience oozes from you.
> Is this considered defol? OLG keep doing what your doing.View attachment 3154568


hazy that is some clean mainlining. i can tell your whole room is meticulously clean.
gold star


----------



## ayr0n (May 16, 2014)

Hazydat620 said:


> Nope, just getting tired of negative fucks who think they have solved every mystery of the plant, and go into other peoples threads and talk shit, so they get trolled. Do you really think I come to RIU for growing advice,LOLOLOLOLOL, oh man. I can tell this is the only place you have consumed your knowledge of the plant though, your inexperience oozes from you.
> Is this considered defol? OLG keep doing what your doing.View attachment 3154568


I haven't even said enough for you to decide what's 'oozing' from me yet.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

haulinbass said:


> Why is the advanced cultivation forum always the site for the worst arguments over the stupidest shit?
> 
> Maybe i just dont give a shit about how anyone is growing or i just find it more interesting talking about strains themselves, but arguing about the easiest part of growing( the actual growth of the plant) when things like enviroment control and plant selection are basicly what actually matter are never spoke of.


I would welcome questions. I started this thread to have a discussion. Nobody has backed me up in the 'ignore the haterz' thing so
thread went down in flames. I would welcome a discussion about my environment or my strain selection.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Maine Buds said:


> Sorry man pisses me off I ask a serious ? And get treated like a child. I really want to see the end of your experiment. I 'll be the bigger man and apologize to everyone. Sorry


he did the same thing to me. he can't take a question because he isn't here to answer questions. he's like the kid who acts up in class to get attention. he ruins the learning for everyone by selfishly and immaturely making it about himself, all the while offering nothing of value.


----------



## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

Hazydat620 said:


> Yeah the stupid part is the OP, I like how you deleted the part where you said to dual harvest, cut the tops of and let the bottoms finish up, Why would they need to finish up,lol. You and your little lackey are nothing but trolls, why don't you like your own section anymore? not enough traffic? everyone tired of you lames ass BS you gotta go dirty up someone else's thread? You should be rich and famous by now with all your knowledge, why do you hang around here?


the stupid part is the OP?


----------



## Hazydat620 (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Now there is a maintenance nightmare.
> 
> Curious, did you rape your ladies on your stomach or back?


That's 2 1/2 feet off the ground, sitting indian style. Was no different watering this jungle. Hand watering usually includes laying down when you grow trees. What other stupid shit do you got to say? First ever grow BTW, would you like to see what they started as?


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## Hazydat620 (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> the stupid part is the OP?


he posted a link to his thread, his OP is stupid. Not yours


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

ABORT ABORT ABORT
if anybody wants to know where the discussion is moving to PM me


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## ayr0n (May 16, 2014)

OscarLaGrouch said:


> I would welcome questions. I started this thread to have a discussion. Nobody has backed me up in the 'ignore the haterz' thing so
> thread went down in flames. I would welcome a discussion about my environment or my strain selection.


I really think most of the ppl that clash on this forum would be capable of achieving remarkable feats if they worked together instead of playing whos dick's bigger. Sorry your thread got all fucked up, but if it makes you feel better I actually got a lot out of it. At the very least both sides of the argument had a voice here, and people can take that to make their decision on which way is right.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

ayr0n said:


> I really think most of the ppl that clash on this forum would be capable of achieving remarkable feats if they worked together instead of playing whos dick's bigger. Sorry your thread got all fucked up, but if it makes you feel better I actually got a lot out of it. At the very least both sides of the argument had a voice here, and people can take that to make their decision on which way is right.


yeah but I said if everybody doesnt join me and ignore the haters I would abandon the thread and keep the results to myself. 
I am a man of my word.


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## MaineMooseRider (May 16, 2014)

Sorry, I promised to just watch. Was just waiting for results. I am sorry these guys did this to you. I'm not answering them although I did report a couple posts because there was no need in threatening people. Across this country there is alot of conversations about bullying. They are just bullies who have nothing better to do.


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## Hazydat620 (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> hau! You're name is PokaOnUs, right? Descendant of the great WunHunLo tribe?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry, I'm just po white folk, with yes Indian heritage, couldn't afford no drip irrigation. How long did it take for you to work up to that, years? Looks pretty pathetic if you ask me, you planted it in the ground and that's all you have? those were in 10 gal. pots, lol.


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

MaineMooseRider said:


> Sorry, I promised to just watch. Was just waiting for results. I am sorry these guys did this to you. I'm not answering them although I did report a couple posts because there was no need in threatening people. Across this country there is alot of conversations about bullying. They are just bullies who have nothing better to do.


there were threats? maybe the university of florida would like to know what one of their researchers is up to...


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## killemsoftly (May 16, 2014)

Uncle Ben said:


> Let me get this straight tribal master of the WunHunLo tribe. You can afford to fill
> Enjoy your mutts.


Hypocrite much?


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## stankyyank (May 16, 2014)

I am under the impression that light (UVb) to the bud sites can increase resin production, as well as cannabinoid levels. One issue with this indoors, however, is that the glass that typically surrounds an HPS bulb filters out what little bit of UVb that might be emitted. Is anyone else familiar with this? This does not necessarily argue for or against the discussion of Defol in terms of YIELD, but it could surely impact quality. Thoughts anyone?


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## OscarLaGrouch (May 16, 2014)

stankyyank said:


> I am under the impression that light (UVb) to the bud sites can increase resin production, as well as cannabinoid levels. One issue with this indoors, however, is that the glass that typically surrounds an HPS bulb filters out what little bit of UVb that might be emitted. Is anyone else familiar with this? This does not necessarily argue for or against the discussion of Defol in terms of YIELD, but it could surely impact quality. Thoughts anyone?


get a UVB light from a pet store


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## sunni (May 16, 2014)

Thread closed. ...use the ignore button.


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