# Atheism & Spirituality



## 4theist20 (Apr 28, 2007)

A Theism - Without belief in a God or gods.


Ello, ello. My name's Chris. I'm 23yo and I've been an atheist for most of my life. All of my adult life. (I feel like I'm in an AA meeting.) Anyway, I ran a little search for Atheism on these forums and found little to nothing. So I'm startin' my own God damn it.... My goal for this thread is really to have a place for the Theist and the Atheist to mingle. Share thoughts and views. Voice opinions. Etc. etc. I'll begin.... 

When you tell people that you do not believe in a creator one of the first questions you'll hear is, 'Well, how do you think everything came to be?' My answer, of course is Big Bang, Evolution. Evolution on a cosmological sense as well as a biological one. There seems to be a lot of confusion concerning the Theory of Evolution. For many people of faith I think the word 'evolution' immedialtely brings up a defensive wall. Firstly, I would like to say that I know MANY theists who believe very much in a God and still manage to accept the Theory of Evolution. Evolution really only starts to become a problem when you believe the literal interpretation of your holy book. People who believe that the stories of the Bible (Insert holy book of your choice) actually happened will tend to have the hardest time accepting evolution. Apparently believing that God fashioned women from Adam's rib. Or that snakes talk, or that Janoah lived in the belly of a large fish for a few days is easier to buy into than evolution for some people. I don't get it.
I commonly hear people say 'But it's just a theory! There's no proof!' Well, yes. You are correct, theories don't have proof. But to say that something is 'JUST a theory' is being a bit deceptive. A theory is something that ALL current scientific evidence points to. You are correct to state that Evolution has no proof. Neither does God. But what Evolution DOES have is evidence. Shit loads of it. And God of course has none.

Another question I get is 'What do you live for? What's your purpose?' All I can say is that I live for myself, my family and my friends. That's all I need. Not believing in a God or an afterlife forces me to focus on the now. Life is special because it's for a limited time only. I don't get a second one. 

Umm... I'm going to stop talking now. I hope this thread doesn't sink.


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## midgradeindasouth (Apr 28, 2007)

I was raised to be religious.
I personally think that people have blown religion way the hell out of propotion.
First and foremost I do not believe that the one they called Jesus ment for his beliefs to become manipulated into a means to control the masses.
I think if I had to state what I believe it would be that energy can not be created or destroyed it can only change forms. example Light becomes radiant enery like that is used for photosynthesis. Then the plant uses that energy to grow then it makes it fruit and puts off oxygen and so on.
I can not say that I believe in re incarnation. I certainly think it could be possible.
I feel like humans as a group are a perpetuating life force. This brings me to duality.
You can not have one without the other.
For example light - dark, good - bad.
So therefore you can not have life without death and vice versa.


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## UserFriendly (Apr 28, 2007)

another bullshit thread. whether you call yourself atheist or not, you are defining yourself by god. get off the short bus.


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 28, 2007)

I see where Atheism comes from. It's honestly just about a lack of faith, which also happens to be the first building block of theism.. so there's your first problem when trying to relate haha. 
I believe in God. The reason is because I am and you are and the world is. I don't see god as this crazy old guy in the sky playing chess with our lives and sneezing and then BAM! tsunamis suddenly happen in indonesia. Not at all. God is when you're in the park on a beautiful day and the sun is warming you and the birds are in their own world in the skys and the trees and you see an ant carrying a leaf that's almost the size of your hand. That shit is amazing and I believe that a higher power had something to do with it. I can't accept that it 'just happened.'
Also, I think that organized religion is pretty much bullshit.. the way it has developed, anyway. Like anything on earth, humans have exploited it for personal gain and it's lost it's purity. That's why I'm a Sufi.

Sufism is an ancient sect of islam that is more about the pursuit of Oneness with God than anything else. It's belief parallels mine on the whole 'god in nature' theory AND it's really about finding all the gems of truth and brilliant concepts of God's power in all the major religions. We believe they all hold pieces of the answer but by exploring them all is the only way to truley find God because seperate, they're incomplete.


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## 4theist20 (Apr 28, 2007)

Midgrade - I'm sorry. I still don't understand why you're religious. I'm a little stoned, but could you clarify your post for me? I understand that matter (energy) cannot be created or destroyed. But I don't see your point.


Userfreindly - Did you really have to post that? Why don't you just stay the fuck out then? I'm assuming you're another asshole, know-it-all agnostic who thinks he/she has one up on everyone else, but please. Do the people who actually might be interested in this thread a favor and fuck off. 

I've never understood that douche bag argument, atheists still define themselves by God. STFU. Atheism is without belief in a God. You either believe in one or you do not. Suck it long and hard.


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 28, 2007)

UserFriendly said:


> whether you call yourself atheist or not, you are defining yourself by god


I don't think this thread is bullshit but that's an awesome point. The realization that god is all pervasive because you're defining yourself by god. that's pretty ill. The question is how do you not?


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## midgradeindasouth (Apr 28, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> Midgrade - I'm sorry. I still don't understand why you're religious. I'm a little stoned, but could you clarify your post for me? I understand that matter (energy) cannot be created or destroyed. But I don't see your point.
> 
> 
> Userfreindly - Did you really have to post that? Why don't you just stay the fuck out then? I'm assuming you're another asshole, know-it-all agnostic who thinks he/she has one up on everyone else, but please. Do the people who actually might be interested in this thread a favor and fuck off.
> ...


I did not say that I was religios. I said I was raised that way.
I do not think you can force anyone to belive anything unless they are followers by nature.
Some people need something to believe in.
I personally do not believe in anything. God or no god same difference to me.


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## 4theist20 (Apr 28, 2007)

> I don't think this thread is bullshit but that's an awesome point. The realization that god is all pervasive because you're defining yourself by god. that's pretty ill. The question is how do you not?


How am I defining myself by God? What is meant by this? Please explain, I am confused.



> I did not say that I was religios. I said I was raised that way.
> I do not think you can force anyone to belive anything unless they are followers by nature.
> Some people need something to believe in.
> I personally do not believe in anything. God or no god same difference to me.


My bad, I said I was stoned.... I agree you cannot _force_ people to believe. Why do people NEED to believe in God?


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## Pseudonym (Apr 28, 2007)

UserFriendly said:


> another bullshit thread. whether you call yourself atheist or not, you are defining yourself by god. get off the short bus.


This is simply poor logic. Using your train of thought I can say I'm a Broncos fan because I define myself as not being a Raiders fan (yup, I'm watching the draft right now). Obviously, although I could be a Broncos fan, I could be a fan of one of thirty other teams without being a Raiders fan.


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## midgradeindasouth (Apr 28, 2007)

Some people need to be led (followers) and then of course some people lead.
Some people can think for themselves. (fewer than you would think)
I feel like the majority of these religious people are just looking to someone to tell them how to live,feel,act,worship, and so on..
Some people believe in current religious ideals just because they where told they are supposed to.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 28, 2007)

Jordy Villain said:


> I see where Atheism comes from. It's honestly just about a lack of faith, which also happens to be the first building block of theism.


No, not a lack of faith. Merely not believing in a fairy tale god. I don't believe in these fairy tales. In fact I know there is no god, at least not in the sense that you believe. To my mind if there was a god then it wouldn't be a living being or entity but the catalyst for the birth of the universe, or the 'big bang' if you will. That is where it stops, apart from this I know there are no gods.

I have faith, I have faith in the human race to one day see through the fog of bullshit that has clouded us for 2, 000 (? As nobody really knows when it was) years. The earliest form of control for those intelligent enough to use it like... the catholic church, in fact all sects.


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## UserFriendly (Apr 28, 2007)

UserFriendly said:


> another bullshit thread. whether you call yourself atheist or not, you are defining yourself by god. get off the short bus.


FUCK YEAH!


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 28, 2007)

UserFriendly said:


> FUCK YEAH!


You quoting yourself? You have nothing more to add? Maybe you don't have the mind for it, afraid of being forced to question your faith?


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## midgradeindasouth (Apr 28, 2007)

LOL
skunk you got it. I feel I think things are simmilar to what you have said.


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## TheConstantGardner (Apr 28, 2007)

There's somebody on this board with a sig that goes something like this:
"Religion provides comfort in a world torn apart by religion."

I can't remember who uses it, but I thought that was an excellent quote.

I grew up Roman Catholic, but also went to Baptist churches (Hellfire and Brimstone sermons) as well as Presbyterian churches (pass the collection plate around one more time, and this time we want the full 20&#37; of your wages). It wasn't until I was 18 that I decided the belief systems and practices were a load of bull. Even Constantine, who brought about the bible through compiling those gospels he thought appropriate, was a pagan until he was on his deathbed. He decided bringing everybody under one umbrella of religion would bring about peace. Ooops!

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against all the various religions. I do, however, tend to have problems with the religious zealots and violent fanatics who use religion to justify violence, oppression, and control. I still cannot understand why we (in the USA) still allow the church to effectively influence our lawmakers. Where I live it is unlawful to sell alcohol on Sunday, and sex/porn shops are illegal. Why can't I buy a six-pack on Sunday? And if my fiancee wants to slip into something comfortable and enjoy a vibrating, wiggling, laser-guided dildo she should enjoy that freedom. The separation of church and state should go beyond tax liability. I get disgusted with the wealth of our local clergymen. Just up the road a preacher at a Holiness church received a brand new Harley from the congregation and they sent his wife to France with $10K to buy a dress at a fashion show!!! They also have matching Hummer H2s. What about the hungry and homeless in the area? They won't help unless they are a member of the church, and the church won't accept them unless their salaries are high enough to support the Clergy's expensive tastes.

Sorry for the rant. My fiancee still hasn't found a church that isn't ripe with corruption and greed and there's a church on every corner around here.


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> The earliest form of control for those intelligent enough to use it like... the catholic church, in fact all sects.


i admitted theres corruption on all levels but thats because if the humanity that you have so much faith in.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 29, 2007)

Jordy Villain said:


> i admitted theres corruption on all levels but thats because if the humanity that you have so much faith in.


No, that's because religion is like a veil. It's thrown about ones head and their vision is blurred. Religion is a con, likewise belief in fairies or whatever magical things you believe in.

Corruption, lol. What are you talking about? I'm not really talking about organised religion. I'm talking about belief in fairy tales, magical creatures... Your beliefs are false, what's corruption got to do with it?

Before your god was thought up there were thousands of gods before, what makes you think that this is real? What makes you think it could be real?

How long has man been on the Earth?

You see, before you can say you believe in something you must first understand what it is you believe. You must investigate. Any amount of investigating will lead to the LOGICAL conclusion that there are no gods. Tell me why you believe in these gods, if you can.


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## TheConstantGardner (Apr 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> No, that's because religion is like a veil. It's thrown about ones head and their vision is blurred. Religion is a con, likewise belief in fairies or whatever magical things you believe in.


You can take offense to a word in a joke, then in the next breath directly assault someone else's beliefs and faith? I doubt anybody here believes in fairies, unicorns, or dragons. However, nobody deserves to be ridiculed for being religious. Likewise, you don't deserved to be chastised for being an athiest.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 29, 2007)

TheConstantGardner said:


> You can take offense to a word in a joke, then in the next breath directly assault someone else's beliefs and faith? I doubt anybody here believes in fairies, unicorns, or dragons. However, nobody deserves to be ridiculed for being religious. Likewise, you don't deserved to be chastised for being an athiest.


I can't see the relation. 

I say fairies and magical creatures as this is the same thing as belief in gods. In what way was there a direct assault? I did not verbally abuse or attack anyone... what are you talking about?


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## kenneth_342 (Apr 29, 2007)

Heres the joys of this one. Its all about belifs. You cannot really prove there is or isnt a god. It is all about ones belifs. Some one bleives in god or they dont. If you belive in god and i dont well just have to agree to disagree. You cant prove to me there is a god just like i couldnt prove to anyone else there is no god.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 29, 2007)

kenneth_342 said:


> Heres the joys of this one. Its all about belifs. You cannot really prove there is or isnt a god. It is all about ones belifs. Some one bleives in god or they dont. If you belive in god and i dont well just have to agree to disagree. You cant prove to me there is a god just like i couldnt prove to anyone else there is no god.


NO, what debates like these do is get people to question their beliefs, get them thinking. Even you couldn't help but post. If you really believed what you'd written you wouldn't have bothered posting, merely flicked over to the next thread.


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## TheConstantGardner (Apr 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> I can't see the relation.
> 
> I say fairies and magical creatures as this is the same thing as belief in gods. In what way was there a direct assault? I did not verbally abuse or attack anyone... what are you talking about?


Hell, I don't know anymore 
I need to put the keyboard away after lighting up.

I'm an atheist as well so I get where you're coming from. I usually just leave peoples religious beliefs alone.


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> No, that's because religion is like a veil. It's thrown about ones head and their vision is blurred. Religion is a con, likewise belief in fairies or whatever magical things you believe in.
> Tell me why you believe in these gods, if you can.


I already did.



skunkushybrid said:


> No, that's because religion is like a veil. It's thrown about ones head and their vision is blurred. Religion is a con, likewise belief in fairies or whatever magical things you believe in.


and this 'fairy' belief IS faith. which is what I was talking about before. you see it as fairy tales and I see 'it', being God and intelligent design, a higher power even, as the truth.. and that is faith. You may think I'm veiled.. I think my eyes are wide open. and that is the point. You're blinded by the human reaction to anything it can't understand or explain as something that doesnt exist or is trivial. You have the right to feel that way. I choose to believe in something that is greater than humanity because I see the greatness and beauty and potential IN humanity.. and nothing around shows me where that comes from. except when i look at the WORLD and the beauty that it is... and that is God. But I honestly don't expect you to care or understand and that's fine.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 29, 2007)

Jordy Villain said:


> I already did.
> 
> 
> 
> and this 'fairy' belief IS faith. which is what I was talking about before. you see it as fairy tales and I see 'it', being God and intelligent design, a higher power even, as the truth.. and that is faith. You may think I'm veiled.. I think my eyes are wide open. and that is the point. You're blinded by the human reaction to anything it can't understand or explain as something that doesnt exist or is trivial. You have the right to feel that way. I choose to believe in something that is greater than humanity because I see the greatness and beauty and potential IN humanity.. and nothing around shows me where that comes from. except when i look at the WORLD and the beauty that it is... and that is God. But I honestly don't expect you to care or understand and that's fine.


Faith and truth are two different things completely, in fact the word faith implies belief in something to which there is no proof.

When I asked the reasons why you believe in a god, I meant in a logical sense. You see this is UNDERSTANDING. I understand many things, including why you people believe in such bullshit.

I see the beauty in the world, all different aspects of life surviving and evolving in it's own individual way. I see what has adapted best to the environment and what will soon become extinct. I see the world changing, on a scale mankind has yet to fully comprehend. I see life, why ruin it with magic?


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 29, 2007)

you don't understand. and thats why u cant accept it.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Apr 29, 2007)

kenneth_342 said:


> Heres the joys of this one. Its all about belifs. You cannot really prove there is or isnt a god. It is all about ones belifs. Some one bleives in god or they dont. If you belive in god and i dont well just have to agree to disagree. You cant prove to me there is a god just like i couldnt prove to anyone else there is no god.





UserFriendly said:


> another bullshit thread. whether you call yourself atheist or not, you are defining yourself by god. get off the short bus.


these two posts are exactly the same in their nature. we've had several threads like this is the past (i assume a few before i ever joined the forum too) and theyre alwase being cluttered up with this shit. some ppl love talking about this sort of thing, a day or two will pass and then every body has to read thru 4 pages just to catch up. do everybody a favor and dont bother posting if ur not going to add something constructive. _please?_

-

okay. i call out anybody reading this to challenge what they believe. fuck what uve learned or been taught, if ur view of the universe is so great it should be able to stand solid against the ideas of a 19 yr druggie suffering from borderline personality disorder. but to fully understand my argument u need to read thru it all (and it probly will be lengthy) without putting up mental walls every two seconds because an assumption uve made a while back conflicts with one of my sentences. read thru it all and then post ur rebuttals. this is how true debates are done.

believing something without rational reason is called gullibility. (sure, faith is nice and all, comfort is a good thing for children who need to learn societys rules the easy way, but its time to grow up.) for the time being, pretend that ur wiping ur assumptions of the universe clean. u dont know anything. -----------------------------------------------------------done?
so what do we got? a clean slate, a blank page- represented by infinite existence and immeasurable nothingness with no lines to differentiate between the two. dont continue unless u can fathom this. everything is the same. 

years ago man believed that the other planets in the solar system were godly beings because from what theyd experienced, that seemed a logical conclusion. to logically start breaking down our model of the universe _without the use of faith_, we need supreme knowledge. but we dont have that. we know *nothing*.

but, hey now, what did we just say? _nothing_ is the same as _everything_. congratulations, you are now "god". how does it feel? in this theoretical universe we just "created" moments ago, we know all. but remember, our universe still doesnt actually exist. creation is no different than destruction. in our model there is no beginning, there is no end. our model now has a perdurable, limitless time line.

now to see how well our model stacks up in representing the "real" world.
1. time, creation, and destruction are only illusions
2. you are "god"

throughout the ages, mankind has relied on labels to function productively in daily life. languages are just complex systems of labeling. what ur staring at right now is not "monitor". monitor is what we have agreed to call this object. when we do away with these types of labels, it becomes easy to see that the "real" universe is all connected. its all the same. labels are used to describe all things tangible. objects, life forms, ideas, places in time, patterns of movement, whatever. what is this monitor? when u break it down a bit, its a collection of atoms. what separates the atoms of the monitor and the air surrounding it? its function. what determines function? perception. u say this machines purpose is to display a visual representation of the information provided by ur computer. the small spider that has layed its eggs inside it says its a warm shelter for its unborn offspring. the electricity powering it says its just another section of the network its cycling thru. its all relative. so when u say that this monitor was created, it really wasnt. it has changed from what it once was, in a way, but it was never created. and it will never be destroyed.

what is time? time is the transition between two points in our forth dimension. the present is the _destruction_ of the future (what will be) and the _creation_ of the past (what has been). can we pin point where the present is? not unless we can pin point the past and future. is any type of measurement infallible? no, because everything is made of something.

monitor-components-molecules-atoms-subatomic particles-quarks, etc... everything has to be made out of something. *if something was made of nothing, it would be nothing.* (btw, antimatter is something else completely. antihydrogen would be made of a antielectron and a antiproton. and even if the monitor ur looking at is made of antimatter at a small enough scale its still made of something. anitmatter is something, even if its anti-something) *so the scale to which the physical universe exists is infinite.* numbers can go on forever. ( 1,111,111,111,111,111,... ; .033333333333...) a mere second is infinite in nature. a mere atom never ends in depth. it all depends on perception. so from what we can measure, there is no present. but we know its here right? in fact, the present is the only thing that we truly experience.

infinite existence and immeasurable nothingness with no real lines to differentiate between the two.

all u creationists out there start tp lose ur argument right here. sorry. "_if theres no god, than how did this all come to be?_" it didnt. there was no beginning. to assume a beginning u rely on faith and we've done away with faith for the time being, remember? faith is a tool of delusion. adopted by the ignorant; exploited by those with "power". 

"_but look how pretty and amazing everything is! look how intricate and elaborate this shit is! god must be out there_!" nope. "pretty" and "amazing" are just labels to describe human ideas. these ideas describe personal emotion, a product of perception. these ideas are experienced differently by everybody. just as subjective as everything else. and the words "elaborate" and "intricate" describe the perception of the person, not what they are perceiving. how do i figure? all worldly knowledge is subjective. just as the romans concluded the planet mars was a spiritual being of war, all of our collective knowledge may very well be obsolete in the future. and the actual nature of all ideas (and the labels that describe them) are specific to every individual that holds them, because we all see things differently. we say that the structure and function of a living tissue cell is intricate now, but what we see it as now is going to be considered simple in a few centuries. everyone sees things differently. everybody has a different reality.

we are all god. 

we are the creators of the worlds around us. when u consider something true or false, u form your mental model of the world u live in. and what u experience is not the external world (your keyboard, your house, your spouse). the phenomena u experience is a product of your senses, senses that are specific to ur limitations. (colorblindness, mental retardation, etc.)


im sure uve noticed me quoting "real" in "real world". to assume that anything but ur sensory perception actually exists is a matter of faith. solipsism, or external world skepticism, proves to be a very lonely mindset tho. this is where i draw the line. i consider it true (everything i have ever known or experienced has literally been "all in my head") but i refuse to live life that way. the first line drawn. this is one half of my faith.

the other half: i live life as tho i have choice over what i do. it is impossible for anybody to say that they truly control their actions. when u were born, it was the doing of ur parents. ur very existence was not ur doing. from then on, u developed as an individual. ur personality (which determines ur opinions and choices) was influenced by ur surroundings. anything u have ever done to influence ur surroundings is irrelevant. 

say u are some type of buoyant rock and ur reality is a jar of water. when u were dropped in the jar (birth) u sent ripples outward. these ripples travel outward and eventually make it make to u after bouncing off the wall of the jar. now, these ripples will be effected by u this time around, possibly keeping u moving for years and years, but the origional ripple was not your doing.

choice is an illusion

finally the metaphysics of it all. how is the universe shaped? circles. circles are perfect by nature. pi is never ending. knowing that choice is an illusion, u can picture ur life as a straight line. the planets orbiting the sun dont actually travel in a circle, they move in one direction, but a force larger than them alters their course. (theists, chill out. theres always a larger force. even if there was some big bearded dude wearing a white robe that created us somehow, there had to be somebody who made him. "_what came first? the chicken or the egg?_" dont be stupid. an egg is just a baby chicken. its all the same)

i figure that the cosmic destiny that determines all action in ones life moves in a straight line, but this straight line is altered by other lines of destiny. ever hear of the golden rectangle?

we are all connected; are are all utterly alone. we are all ONE.






hail satan


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## preoQpydDlusion (Apr 29, 2007)

baddow-have fun readin that. hope i didnt leave anything out


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 30, 2007)

Jordy Villain said:


> you don't understand. and thats why u cant accept it.


lol. Very well put jordy... hmmm. Hmmmm. Hmmm. lol.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 30, 2007)

Preo', you yourself will be the first to admit that perceptions change. One day your whole outlook on life will change preo'. For me it happened exactly 5 years later than the age you are now.

It's our environment that causes us to think the way we do. I was an angry motherfucker before I met my wife. One day you'll meet a girl, people used to say this shit to me too and I used to think I meet fucking lots of them, but I mean THE girl. The one that is going to change your outlook on life, make you realise that there's more to life than personal satisfaction.

I don't mean this in a patronising way but a lot of things you say are things I used to say. You don't have a borderline personality disorder you're just becoming an adult. Always a difficult transition for an intelligent teenager.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 30, 2007)

the very fact that there is so many religions all thinking there god is the only one proves religion is BS to me.
religion is like a guide to life ,but not todays life it just dosent work anymore ,think about it when the bible etc was wrote the world was a totaly different place ,people burnt witches ,if there was a thunderstorm people believed it was god etc etc etc humans have got got cleverer than they where back then science has proven these things to have nothing to do with god .
nowadays religion is just used as a front to fight over oil ,land etc .its stupid and it makes me angry that people are killed every day because of beliefs of people 100s of years ago


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## Desired User Name (Apr 30, 2007)

Nothing funner than discussing "what if" bullshit, eh?


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 30, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> lol. Very well put jordy... hmmm. Hmmmm. Hmmm. lol.


hah. no seriously, though. is that sarcasm or does that make sense? Cause I can totally accept where you're coming from and since it seems you can't, does that seem like the reason why?


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 30, 2007)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> the very fact that there is so many religions all thinking there god is the only one proves religion is BS to me.


Its all the same God. There's just different prophets for each religion and that's what makes most organized religion 'BS' to me because if you're really trying to connect with God, you'd use the best way possible to make that happen. Thats why I'm Sufi because it draws the best knowledge from all the prophets of all the major religions, leaving the non-sensical, sectarian/denominational shit on the side because real love for God isnt about that... it slows your walk on 'the path', breaks focus.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 30, 2007)

Jordy Villain said:


> Its all the same God. There's just different prophets for each religion and that's what makes most organized religion 'BS' to me because if you're really trying to connect with God, you'd use the best way possible to make that happen. Thats why I'm Sufi because it draws the best knowledge from all the prophets of all the major religions, leaving the non-sensical, sectarian/denominational shit on the side because real love for God isnt about that... it slows your walk on 'the path', breaks focus.


Do you believe in an afterlife? lol (sorry the very word makes me laugh).


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 30, 2007)

yeah man i do. But it's manifestation, I'm not sure. I'm not going to pretend liek I have all the answers or understand everything I believe in. that's why it's called 'the path'.. because I'm searching for it, learning it, you know? But anyway the afterlife.. I believe in an existance after life just because I believe human energy is so powerful and real that it continues even after our physical frames are done. 'Energy isnt created or destroyed, it's changed.'
Actually I just thoguht of this: So if God created the Universe, I'm going to call him/her this infinite energy and we are a piece of him that he changed to this likelyness. So once we die, we go back to him in another transfer of energy. so maybe thats the concept of 'going to heaven'? Idk just a thought.
But what I usually consider the afterlife to be is whatever you want it to be. If you don't believe in an afterlife there wont be one. If you believe you lead a meaningful life that deserves a tranquil existance after this life, maybe thats what you'll have. If you were raised super christian and die feeling guilty for letting some fucking 12 yr old suck you off last week, maybe you'll go to 'hell' .. it's what you make it in other words.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 30, 2007)

religion is just something humans have created in there mind ,animals dont worry about religion the dinosaurs didnt worry about religion ,at the end of the day we are animals too but we have bigger brains capable of thinking this crap up.
i want to know if dinosaurs are in heaven and cave men who didnt even know fuck all about our religions ,if they sinned did they just get let off ?and let into heaven anyway ?


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 30, 2007)

no but their energy went somewhere.. is my point.


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## catgirl (Apr 30, 2007)

Just be and you will eventually see the truth that is you and me...

When one finds truth then what need is there for faith, because faith is something one only needs when one is still searching for truth. So when one finds truth then one has no-doubt, not faith!

To see the truth when it appears to us we need to let go of the belief that is blinding us.

Reality is not a state of mind, it just is... Where as belief is just a state of mind...

Just be and you will be happy. 

If we believe we are going to heaven then don't forget that our mind at the time of death is the mind we will have to live with in our heaven (or should we call it hell ) 
 
</IMG></IMG></IMG>


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 30, 2007)

catgirl said:


> If we believe we are going to heaven then don't forget that our mind at the time of death is the mind we will have to live with in our heaven (or should we call it hell )


 
yoo exactly


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (Apr 30, 2007)

sorry to be blunt but when you die you just rot away end of .no little thing ,energy ,ghost or anything else floats up and flys off to heaven .
but hey you can believe in what you like the same as me ,i just like to believe in science (something you can see and do ) .


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## Jordy Villain (Apr 30, 2007)

word i respect that. i've definitely seen a ghost before though. not cool..  oh new thread.


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 30, 2007)

Yeah, sarcasm. So hard to put across without blatantly adding, I said sarcastically. It was in response to you saying that I don't understand, although you haven't as yet clarified what this is.

You get funnier by the second, you've actually seen a ghost have you? Ha ha ha. Now you are delving into the realms of the completely ridiculous.

Ghosts and wizards... believe in vampires too?

Want to know why ghosts are logically impossible (although from what I have already witnessed logic has no place in your mind)?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Apr 30, 2007)

Desired User Name said:


> Nothing funner than discussing "what if" bullshit, eh?


is that referring to my post? unless u have a hard time following what i was describing, theres no need to say that all bullshit. its a very simple way to describe the universe, a way that doesnt include faith in religion. its alot to read but most of it involves breaking down preconceived notions that have been passed down generations, often times to misguide or manipulate the masses.



ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> religion is just something humans have created in there mind ,animals dont worry about religion the dinosaurs didnt worry about religion...


religion is just a way of life. a path, sometimes ppl interpret holy books literally and they come up with all sorts of crazy shit. most religions arent that bad, most religions are exactly the same.

how do u know animals dont "worry about religion"? u talk to them? besides, we all have religion in one way or another, even if we refuse to believe in a higher power.



ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> sorry to be blunt but when you die you just rot away end of .no little thing ,energy ,ghost or anything else floats up and flys off to heaven .
> but hey you can believe in what you like the same as me ,i just like to believe in science (something you can see and do ) .


ignorance. yeah, ur body will rot and die (hopefully humans will start to get cremated more often, the burial of our dead is really starting to waste land) but that doesnt explain what u see while u are rotting. ppl die for moments and get brought back to life in hospitals all the time, many say they witness things while they are "dead"



Jordy Villain said:


> yeah man i do. But it's manifestation, I'm not sure. I'm not going to pretend liek I have all the answers or understand everything I believe in. that's why it's called 'the path'..


 i totally respect ur religious view. its cool, its positive, it allows for a nice life that continues to work off a deep meaning. but wouldnt it be nice to actually *know* what makes the universe the way it is? wouldnt it be nice to simply have the piece of mind that u *know* whats going on, but at the same time everything u do is beautiful?

i mean, thats what u got right now, but it relies on faith. u accept that u dont know, and continue on knowing that u never will following the path ur on (that is untill u receive final confirmation in the afterlife.) me n u have very similar views, im speakin to u right now because of this. im getting real tired of getting involved in these discussions, ive spent all of my adolescent years staring at walls trying to figure shit out, i figure i'd share what i got with people that could understand.

i figured that since most of my ideas that felt groundbreaking to me were realized thru the use of drugs, other ppl that smoke the herb of truth on a regular basis may be apt to hearing my words. but most ppl here are just as stubborn and deluded as the sober folks i see every day.

anyway jordy, like i said our views are very similar in nature, but i base my knowledge on a more mathematically measurable view of the big picture. u might dig it, hell it might start a whole new path for you. a new path of newly understood self-worth that continues to allow u to follow ur Sufi traditions.



catgirl said:


> Just be and you will eventually see the truth that is you and me...


just read my fuckin post and u will see the truth today. seriously, has anybody taken the time to understand where im coming from?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Apr 30, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Preo', you yourself will be the first to admit that perceptions change. One day your whole outlook on life will change preo'. For me it happened exactly 5 years later than the age you are now.
> 
> It's our environment that causes us to think the way we do. I was an angry motherfucker before I met my wife. One day you'll meet a girl, people used to say this shit to me too and I used to think I meet fucking lots of them, but I mean THE girl. The one that is going to change your outlook on life, make you realise that there's more to life than personal satisfaction.
> 
> I don't mean this in a patronising way but a lot of things you say are things I used to say. You don't have a borderline personality disorder you're just becoming an adult. Always a difficult transition for an intelligent teenager.



Borderline personality disorder - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
im not one of those little whiny bitches trying to come up with a reason to justify why my life is so shitty. ive had bpd all my life, the duality i see everyday has me interact in a way that is seen as strange to ppl, so i get labeled as unwell.

and for the record i tend to be a generally happy person nowadays, im not angry in the least. sometimes i fail to show emotion, and thats seen as a lack of compassion, lack of enjoyment, but its all in the mind of who is watching/listening to me. i use neutral phrases, i dont make facial expressions naturally. sometimes i might say negative things, but i was brought up in a really sarcastic household. i like dark humor.

and i see that my perception is changing, yes. im going thru a huge change right now, and thats mainly because im finally done examining the world, im ready to really start living. hopefully the next girl i find will be the one that u describe, i have faith that i will find somebody one day. but honestly that wont change how i see the world. 

personal satisfaction. yeah. i dont see that part of my life changing either. i help ppl everyday. ive havent turned down somebody asking a favor in years, but i do it because it makes me happy to see somebody else better off. i receive gratification from everything i do, every action i go threw with is a productive one, a positive one that benefits me as well as those around me. i throw in the "hail satan" every once in a while to play around in a sarcastic way (knowing that most ppl have a very disturbed view of what satanism really is) but yeah once again, for the record, im a very happy, likable guy that just happens to be misunderstood by everybody he comes in contact with (with a few exceptions of course)

(p.s. im really not all that egotistical either. im sure there are lots of things i will come to realize that will alter my course, i will take ur words to heart skunkush.)


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## skunkushybrid (Apr 30, 2007)

I understand you preo'... and you don't have borderline personality disorder, at least not in the way you think. We are all one step away from the edge.

Take a big lump of XTC, a big lump... trust me. I know it will change your perception.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Apr 30, 2007)

wow. at first i wasnt liking what i was reading (im damn certain ive had bpd for a while now. not really _all_, some shit happened when i was about 8 yrs old.) but then i imagined what would happen if i took a handful of x. (ive taken some in the past, barely felt it. ill have to take a big lump like u said) i imagined myself completely happy and not being able to hold bad compassion. and then i felt a deep whole in my chest like i needed a cig, and i wiped the idea from my head instinctively. all in a split second.

fucking deep man. im not gonna assume too much, but u may have just done be a great favor in giving that advice. im in a weird mind state right now, something i havent felt in a long, long, long time.


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## midgradeindasouth (Apr 30, 2007)

What do you all think about the "Left Behind" books?
I mean that is taking it to the limit or atleast that is how I feel.

These people that used to work with me were telling me about them.
Apparently the "rapture" comes and people start disappearing leaving nothing but their clothes.
I mean come on. Do people really believe this?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Apr 30, 2007)

i dont think many ppl actually go for all that stuff, its just entertaining reading. but they are the same in nature as the holy bible verses pertaining to the apocalypse.

i was just thinking about the rapture last night.

some of the verses pertaining to the biblical apocalypse were written around 100ad, in a time where christians were being heavily prosecuted by the romans. if u read the descriptions of the beasts that show the coming of the apocalypse, they resemble the political leaders at the time.

the rapture was written as a tool in giving ppl hope that their righteous lives will one day pay off. but thats stupid. living in such a way would _be _the pay the off if done correctly. ppl failed to see that when they saw their fellow christians nailed to upside down crucifixes set ablaze. today, ppl shouldnt worry about such injustices. the injustices we face today are conservative views that constrict social change for the better. conservative views that are kept alive because of the holy bible and its cousins.

*Apocalypse* (Greek: &#7944;&#960;&#959;&#954;&#940;&#955;&#965;&#968;&#953;&#962; -translit. APOKALYPSIS, literally: the *lifting of the veil*), *is a term applied to the disclosure to certain privileged persons of something hidden from the mass of humankind*. Today the term is often used to mean "end of the world", which may be a shortening of the phrase _apokalupsis eschaton_ which literally means "revelation at the end of the world".

we are living in the age of satan. the apocalypse is among us. the veil is slowly being lifted. faith in monotheism is slowing dissolving in the way polytheism has been.

the holy bible describes jesus coming back to defeat the antichrist and ppl read it and go "yea! the good guys win!" and it ends there. but with mordern sociology as a base, it is easy to see that good and evil are really just human concepts. they do not really exist. the battle between good and evil are within our minds, not with godly beings.

but lets pretend the battle is literal. how can jesus defeat the antichrist or devil? *jesus cannot defeat*, thats not what he does. if he "beats" the bad guys he becomes the bad guy.

u see the last matrix movie? neo gives up in the last fight against smith. this is the only way the righteous can defeat the wicked. the war will always be waging. the bad guys will never be defeated.


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## catgirl (May 1, 2007)

ThE sAtIvA hIgH said:


> sorry to be blunt but when you die you just rot away end of .no little thing ,energy ,ghost or anything else floats up and flys off to heaven .
> but hey you can believe in what you like the same as me ,i just like to believe in science (something you can see and do ) .


 and being even 'blunter' lol. I would have to add that it is just as un-scientific to believe there is nothing to pass on as it is to believe there is something to pass on to another realm of existence. So for me personally and scientifically I can not prove or disprove either, so if there is nothing at the time of death then no worries, but if there is more then ok I'll deal with it as best I can - what ever 

The only time is now and the only place is here... when and wherever they might be for each of us  
</IMG></IMG>


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## 4theist20 (May 1, 2007)

Preo - You're a smart kid. That long post you were talking about that you asked if anyone even bothered to read. I read it. I enjoyed it and I also noticed that you seemed to actually know your shit. I consider myself somewhat of a science buff. My focus being physics/cosmology. Anywho... Thanks for that post. It was a pleasure to read.



> I believe in an existance after life just because I believe human energy is so powerful and real that it continues even after our physical frames are done.


Jordy, You've raised more questions than you have answered. What the hell is 'human energy' It really just looks like a scientific sounding way of saying SOUL. I'm really confused here. Could you explain a bit more about this? 



> When one finds truth then what need is there for faith, because faith is something one only needs when one is still searching for truth. So when one finds truth then one has no-doubt, not faith!


Catgirl - Faith is belief WITHOUT evidence. It is NOT needed or wanted for truth seeking. The scientific method is used for that.



> If we believe we are going to heaven then don't forget that our mind at the time of death is the mind we will have to live with in our heaven (or should we call it hell )


How could anybody possibly know this? This is guess work. As is anything involving the afterlife.



> Take a big lump of XTC, a big lump... trust me. I know it will change your perception.


Wow, you mean to tell me that taking a large amount of a mind altering substance will.... *gasp* change my perception?! Big fucking surprise there. Preo, you'd have to be in a weird state of mind to take 'advice' (If you want to call it that) like that seriously.



> What do you all think about the "Left Behind" books?
> I mean that is taking it to the limit or atleast that is how I feel.
> 
> These people that used to work with me were telling me about them.
> ...


Midgrade, Oh yeah! You can't forget the 'Left Behind' video game as well. Where you either KILL or CONVERT unbeliever in the end times. The belief is that Jesus will come back after his 2000 year long journey and he will take all of his followers away. This means one day all Christians simply vanish into thin air. Shortly after this the Christians believe that the antichrist will come to power and take over the world. And then people are killed and tortured for not taking the number of the beast. And then there is hell on earth and God comes back to finish us all off. (He's so loving!) 

This seems rediculous, but millions of people believe in this. Rediculous becomes scary.



> some of the verses pertaining to the biblical apocalypse were written around 100ad, in a time where christians were being heavily prosecuted by the romans. if u read the descriptions of the beasts that show the coming of the apocalypse, they resemble the political leaders at the time.


Once again Preo, you are correct. Many historians believe that the stories of the antichrist in the Bible were actually stories about a particular Roman leader that was very cruel to Christians.


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## 4theist20 (May 1, 2007)

Also, I would like to say that as an Atheist, I do not feel that religion is bullshit, or evil, or anything else. I think that religion is a very useful tool. Religions help to build and maintain civilizations. ALL cultures have religion in one form or another. There are no naturally occuring Atheistic cultures that I know of. Religion must play some important role or we wouldn't have it. If it wasn't for that fucking Christianity that pisses me off so much I wouldn't be here today.


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## skunkushybrid (May 1, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> Also, I would like to say that as an Atheist, I do not feel that religion is bullshit, or evil, or anything else. I think that religion is a very useful tool. Religions help to build and maintain civilizations. ALL cultures have religion in one form or another. There are no naturally occuring Atheistic cultures that I know of. Religion must play some important role or we wouldn't have it. If it wasn't for that fucking Christianity that pisses me off so much I wouldn't be here today.


No, when you say religion is a very useful to you should say was, past tense. The important role religion USED TO play is that it provided answers to questions. Gave us the reasons why storms broke, eclipses. It helped us to explain the magic we saw in the world.

Atheists see through the fog, always have done. Athesits go as far back as the Athenians... I'd call that a naturally occuring Atheist culture.

I would advise anybody that believed they were bdp, that believed they couldn't feel emotion to take a large dose of XTC. Call me Dr. Skunk if you like.


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## entropic (May 1, 2007)

Epicurus was from Athens and is the first attributed atheist, but to say that they were a naturally occuring atheist culture is wrong. The Greeks and Romans all persecuted atheists, and atheism was a capital crime in the Roman Empire. Atheists have always been shunned and often times still are today.


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## skunkushybrid (May 1, 2007)

entropic said:


> Epicurus was from Athens and is the first attributed atheist, but to say that they were a naturally occuring atheist culture is wrong. The Greeks and Romans all persecuted atheists, and atheism was a capital crime in the Roman Empire. Atheists have always been shunned and often times still are today.


No, you misunderstand me... I didn't claim that the greeks were all atheists. WTF?

I said that... ah fuck it... reread my post and try and understand it properly.


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## preoQpydDlusion (May 1, 2007)

atheism is THE only naturally occurring culture. all newborns are atheists, they dont believe in all this shit. religion is what is unnatural. its all just an attempt do understand a world that doesnt obey the rules created by humans.

im just curious, 4theist, have u read into laveyan satanism at all? its not really the nature of a satanist to preach or give advise when its not asked for, so i wont ellaborate too much. but i will say that satanism is the only natural "religion" in existence.


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## 4theist20 (May 1, 2007)

> atheism is THE only naturally occurring culture. all newborns are atheists, they dont believe in all this shit. religion is what is unnatural. its all just an attempt do understand a world that doesnt obey the rules created by humans.
> 
> im just curious, 4theist, have u read into laveyan satanism at all? its not really the nature of a satanist to preach or give advise when its not asked for, so i wont ellaborate too much. but i will say that satanism is the only natural "religion" in existence.


Newborns have no culture. They are newly born, how could they? I agree that everyone starts out as an atheist, but that does not mean that religion is not a naturally occuring event. ALL cultures have origin myths. It is a natural progression in the development of civilization. 

And no, I'm very ignorant in Laveyan Satanism. I would be interested to learn more, however.


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## skunkushybrid (May 2, 2007)

Yes Atheism is the ONLY naturally occurring culture in all time. Every other religion has changed, disappeared or formed. Atheism is constant.

Why?

Because it is the truth... the tryth we all know deep down but are too afraid to admit. Even people that say they believe are often lying, not just to the person they say it to but also to themselves.

I've witnessed this shit first hand, look into a mans eyes and ask him if he believes in a god. Don't listen to the words, watch the eyes... they're even lying to themselves.


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## ThE sAtIvA hIgH (May 2, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes Atheism is the ONLY naturally occurring culture in all time. Every other religion has changed, disappeared or formed. Atheism is constant.
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


 
i agree religion is drummed into your head from the very start of school,thats why people are scared to say "they dont believe in god "


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## 4theist20 (May 2, 2007)

> Yes Atheism is the ONLY naturally occurring culture in all time.


Skunk - Find me ONE example of a society that started out atheistic. If you find one you will make me very happy. 



> Every other religion has changed, disappeared or formed. Atheism is constant.
> 
> Why?


Yes, I agree. Beliefs change. But that is not to say that religion and/or spirituality are not a naturally occuring phenomenon within human culture. Indeed they are.

Because religion is used to explain things we do not yet understand. As we grow in knowledge, our religions must change to encompass new discoveries. Atheism is simply a term we use to describe a person who is without belief in a God.



> Even people that say they believe are often lying, not just to the person they say it to but also to themselves.
> 
> I've witnessed this shit first hand, look into a mans eyes and ask him if he believes in a god. Don't listen to the words, watch the eyes... they're even lying to themselves.


I'm sure this is true for many. But not for all. There are people that will gladly die for their religious beliefs. If they're lying to themselves... That's one hell of a powerful lie. I wouldn't expect to see any doubt in an Islamic extreamists eyes. Not to single out that particular faith, however. Many if not all religions have their zealots. 



> i agree religion is drummed into your head from the very start of school,thats why people are scared to say "they dont believe in god "


Sativa - Oh, it's drummed into our heads MUCH earlier than school. Religious families indoctrinate their children before they can speak! Before they're winged off their mother's tit! I really think it's more than just a lie to trick themselves. It's all they have known since birth really.


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## skunkushybrid (May 2, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> Skunk - Find me ONE example of a society that started out atheistic. If you find one you will make me very happy.
> 
> I never said that a whole society has ever started this way, but that atheist culture is prevalent throughout history... within all societies within all time. REligions will come and go, atheism is constant. This was the culture to which I was referring.
> 
> ...


I've been fortunate, at least in the respect of being brought up (for the most part) by pagan parents. I even used to find some of the shit they did pretty funny... anyway I was brought up to believe that there are no gods. I pretty much knew the conspiracy theory concerning the da vinci code long before it was ever turned into a book.


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## closet.cult (May 2, 2007)

*for the record:* science does not 'prove' evolution. but all of science 'supports' evolution. to the point that it is now as much a fact as gravity. (though both are still called theories)

*since evolution has occured:* then EVERY story of the creation of man by EVERY religion's god is false. therefor: mankind has invented their gods. all of them.

*IF god exists:* he is UNLIKE any god described by these religions. if their holy books are no good, he is therefor _unprovable_ and _unknowable_. 

_*conclusion:*_ why believe in any god invented by our fathers thousands of years ago? and if you choose one, why NOT believe in the others? there are many things we now know, which they didn't.

think about this:
_"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. *When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."* _
_...Stephen F Roberts_


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## skunkushybrid (May 2, 2007)

closet.cult said:


> *for the record:* science does not 'prove' evolution. but all of science 'supports' evolution. to the point that it is now as much a fact as gravity. (though both are still called theories)
> 
> *since evolution has occured:* then EVERY story of the creation of man by EVERY religion's god is false. therefor: mankind has invented their gods. all of them.
> 
> ...


Gotta be a plus rep', just for sharing the S. Roberts quote. I agree with everything you've said and I don't say that lightly.

God is the singularity that sparked the big bang, a non entity and merely a catalyst for the birth of life. A guy on this site called 7xstall and, funnily enough, a book by stephen hawking have reminded me of this.

To worship a non entity is quite frankly insane, to worship even the birth of the universe is insane... it would be okay to celebrate it, maybe we should earmark a special day... and to believe that when we die we don't really actually die is crazier still. The fear of death is so finely ingrained.


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## closet.cult (May 2, 2007)

true, skunk. 

plus, even if a mighty god somewhere took credit for the birth of our universe, and ultimately us, why does he deserve our worship? our thanks, maybe, just for having life. but worship? i don't think so. look at all the injustice to thinking, self aware persons. 

besides, if he really had the attributes that religion claims he has he would be so far above the level of cognition that humans possess, that worship would be (should be) meaningless to him. it would be like demanding the sativa seed we have sprouted to worship us, because without us, that plant would never exist.

nonsense.


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## 4theist20 (May 2, 2007)

> besides, if he really had the attributes that religion claims he has he would be so far above the level of cognition that humans possess, that worship would be (should be) meaningless to him. it would be like demanding the sativa seed we have sprouted to worship us, because without us, that plant would never exist.


So that must mean that God worships us! Because I know I worship my plants. (Especially the medical ones.)

This would also explain why God picks people to cast into the hell fire.. Don't you get it people!? He just wants to smoke us to get high! Hell is really God's bong! 

Ah.... Enlightenment.


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## closet.cult (May 2, 2007)

whoa. that is some deep shiz.

and has just enough footing in irrational metaphorical irony as many other beliefs. 

you should start a religion. one that your congregants would all have to get high everyday to reinact the fate of souls. i'd join that religion.


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## Jordy Villain (May 3, 2007)

you guys are so wise.


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## stickyhits (Jun 9, 2007)

for non believers the cold hard truth will be realized in death but to each his own


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## stickyhits (Jun 9, 2007)

Pseudonym said:


> This is simply poor logic. Using your train of thought I can say I'm a Broncos fan because I define myself as not being a Raiders fan (yup, I'm watching the draft right now). Obviously, although I could be a Broncos fan, I could be a fan of one of thirty other teams without being a Raiders fan.


Broncos own the nfl


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## AzGrOw-N-sMoKe (Jun 9, 2007)

im glad someone started this thread....i have read this page only so ill jump in here....when talking of faith an non i would look at it like this...with belief you are never alone for always with you is your faith...with non-believers this cannot be said...but what can be said is there inhanced knowldge of things of this world for this is all they care of...really the issue comes down on how you want to live this life and the next...


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 10, 2007)

finally one of the faithful owns up to their insecurity of being alone.

Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 10, 2007)

preoQpydDlusion said:


> finally one of the faithful owns up to their insecurity of being alone.
> 
> Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


That's all it is. That coupled with the fear of death.

A dog rots in the Earth with no soul, while we live forever on a cloud with a harp... yeah, right.

If only it were true.


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## AzGrOw-N-sMoKe (Jun 10, 2007)

if you read the post i didn't feared being alone..personally i just dont like it..in fact i dont know anyone who wants to be truely alone....all i stated were the facts why one believes in god or not....


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 11, 2007)

I'm still waiting for a post from you that makes a point, or moves a conversation forward. You seem to have no real idea of what you're talking about at least 75% of the time.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 11, 2007)

AzGrOw-N-sMoKe said:


> if you read the post i didn't feared being alone..personally i just dont like it..in fact i dont know anyone who wants to be truely alone....all i stated were the facts why one believes in god or not....


i did read the post. ill admit that being alone is my biggest fear, but ive never been so weak as to create an unimaginably powerful imaginary friend that will whisk me away to paradise if i kiss his ass enough.

maybe thats why YOU believe in god, others have different reasons. u wouldnt be losing anything if u just gave up believing in this stuff and let urself be reborn. theres nothing factual that supports the idea that somebody created all this. 

u are god. come to the dark side

no but seriously explain ur reasoning behind ur beliefs. im going to retire from the forum after this one i swear, do me this favor.


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## 4theist20 (Jun 11, 2007)

> u are god. come to the dark side


How are we god?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 11, 2007)

we create, we destroy. we have alwase existed because nonexistence doesnt exist. (remember that one time before u were born? no? yeah me neither)

everybody has a different view of the world. everybody has a different reality. everybody is god in their own personal, solipsistic universe.

im sure this sounds like jumbled up, weak points to nothing. this all points to the same thing. its impossible to explain what it feels like because existing in such a way does not have room for language or thought.

if god has unlimited knowledge and is all-powerful, he must be omnipresent. such a being would not have the ability to differentiate himself from anything because he is everything. god cant think.

allow urself to stop thinking. instead of analyzing and reflecting, simply take in everything around u. the present is all u ever have. when u do this successfully u take away ur superficial identification and exist only as (dot)(dot)(dot)

i try to live like this 50&#37; of the time. i use my mind when it is productive/ and i completely enjoy life when i can. ive spent all my adolescence trying to figure out _the big one_ only to find that the answer does not exist in the same realm as the question.

maybe thats not what ur looking for depending on what ur definition of god is. this is the truth tho


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## krime13 (Jun 12, 2007)

all right, I just had to get in to this one, what makes a wheel to be usefull? it is an empty space where the axle would go, what makes the ship useful? it is the empty space within it, if you just empty your mind and make it useful, you will see that which is without a shape and cannot be named or described bearly there, it will occupy that empty space you have provided for it, it is the begining of heaven and earth, and if you mantain no thought (way more difficult than one might imagine) it will show you the sistem to the chaos that we call life...


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 12, 2007)

right on krime! its quite easy to maintain no thought during downtime, but to act with the mind turned off is quite different. i find verbally communicating to others without the mind to be impossible. they say that body language is the most important part of communication anyway, talking is overrated.


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## krime13 (Jun 12, 2007)

Why act, I find it alot more beneficial to quiet the mind and just observe,but then again, the one who speaks does not know, the one who knows, does not speak...


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## BloodShotI'z (Jun 12, 2007)

stickyhits said:


> Broncos own the nfl


*Yeah...like back in 1998*


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 12, 2007)

krime13 said:


> Why act, I find it alot more beneficial to quiet the mind and just observe,but then again, the one who speaks does not know, the one who knows, does not speak...


ive slowly been turning off my mind more and more throughout my day, like when i first started i had to be laying down in my bed after i smoked some bud. i could easily see that the shit going thru my head wasnt my own doing. then i started doing it while i ate, when i clean, standard ritual stuff.

now its driving, work and sex. sex is great, driving isnt too hard, and work is rough because my coworkers think of me weird because i refuse to socialize with them all the time (fuckem, half of them are nuts too)

i hope to pass thru some threshold when i successfully only use the mind 1/2 of my waking hours. wishfull thinking probly


ey i got a question for the meditation guys- have u ever meditated while sleeping, like in a dream? i think im going to start carrying something with me i can hold while meditating, eventually it may pop up in a dream.

for some reason im really curious what whould happen to the dream if the mind was turned off- maybe some type of lucid dream could be experienced


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 12, 2007)

ever heard of derren brown? if u dont live in the UK i wouldnt be surprised if the answer was no. he has a television show dealing with hypnosis and illusion, similar (_slightly_) to chris angel but he doesnt perform magic per say. here he (as a self-described atheist) manipulates the practices of evangelists into instantly converting nonbelievers into believing the existence of a higher power. be sure to read the entire description in the part 2 video.

YouTube - Derren Brown "instant conversion" part 1

YouTube - Derren Brown "instant conversion" part 2

YouTube - Derren Brown "instant conversion" (explained)


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 12, 2007)

Derren Brown is a fake.

Preo', you honestly believe that you stop using your mind?

It seems to me that this is just a trick of the mind, the mind allows you to THINK that you're not thinking.

Even on death our minds are the last thing to die. Meditation is an illusion.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 13, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Derren Brown is a fake.
> 
> Preo', you honestly believe that you stop using your mind?
> 
> ...


why would u say browns fake? (like the people he messes with are actors or what?) its all psychology and hypnosis from what i can see. some of his stuff is a bit far-fetched but some of it is real for sure. thats the stuff that gets me interested.

i dont understand how meditation is an illusion either. i meditate because i physically feel better during and afterward. i meditate because i can make better choices when i stop all useless noise in my head from controlling me. where is the illusion?


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 13, 2007)

preoQpydDlusion said:


> why would u say browns fake? (like the people he messes with are actors or what?) its all psychology and hypnosis from what i can see. some of his stuff is a bit far-fetched but some of it is real for sure. thats the stuff that gets me interested.
> 
> i dont understand how meditation is an illusion either. i meditate because i physically feel better during and afterward. i meditate because i can make better choices when i stop all useless noise in my head from controlling me. where is the illusion?


Yes actors. He was outed in our national newspapers, something to do with russian roulette and live ammo... He uses simple tricks.

Meditation is an illusion because you don't need it.


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## krime13 (Jun 13, 2007)

Meditation is an illusion because you don't need it.Its like saying beeng high is an illusion, cos you dont really need it...


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 13, 2007)

krime13 said:


> Meditation is an illusion because you don't need it.Its like saying beeng high is an illusion, cos you dont really need it...


Yes, this is true. All we need is the experience. Once we have enough experience we should be able to replicate the feeling, or flick on the light without using our fingers so to speak.

Ever given yourself an XTC rush without taking E?


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## krime13 (Jun 13, 2007)

Isnt the process you describe called meditation? If we could replicate beeng high on demand , why would anyone buy, grow pot? And yes I think I know what you mean by x , however it only worked for me 2 weeks max after the real trip, beyond that I needed more ex...and I thought it was just a pleasent flashback now and than.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 13, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes actors. He was outed in our national newspapers, something to do with russian roulette and live ammo... He uses simple tricks.
> 
> Meditation is an illusion because you don't need it.


 simple tricks that confuse the fuck out of people. im not saying that man can do magic, magic is one of those words that doesnt even make sense. like god.

i dont need meditation. hm... well i dont need food either, i dont need oxygen. want to play the jaded game? put a gun to my head and taste my spit as i laugh in your face. meditation isnt therapy, its exercise.

ive only been meditating for a short while now and the main thing ive noticed is that ive spent alot of time in circular mindsets that do nothing but reinforce beliefs that never came from my own opinions. im young and i still have a strong urge to go out and accomplish something big and wasting time talking to myself isnt going to make that happen.

the more congested ur thoughts are the more u live in the past. meditation allows u to live closer to the present, which i find to be amazing.


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## krime13 (Jun 13, 2007)

Preq, you are on the right path young jedy, it reminds me of me 10 years ago, beware of lack of discipline, I dug my self a hole that is pretty tough to dig myself out of, however its never too late...My advice to you, if you have any habbits your true self dont approve of END THEM NOW!!! The older we get the harder it is...Beware of the dark side and may the force be with you...


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 13, 2007)

krime13 said:


> Preq, you are on the right path young jedy, it reminds me of me 10 years ago, beware of lack of discipline, I dug my self a hole that is pretty tough to dig myself out of, however its never too late...My advice to you, if you have any habbits your true self dont approve of END THEM NOW!!! The older we get the harder it is...Beware of the dark side and may the force be with you...


hehe. u mean like smoking cigs and masturbating? how can stuff like that dig me into a hole (if u dont mind explaining)

edit: less mental baggage to deal with when pursuing a clear mind?

i guess a better question to ask is How can u really kno what ur tru self disapproves?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 13, 2007)

A MUSEUM DEDICATED TO THE CONCEPT OF HARMONY AND THE GOLDEN SECTION

creationism is ignorance


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 13, 2007)

krime13 said:


> Isnt the process you describe called meditation? If we could replicate beeng high on demand , why would anyone buy, grow pot? And yes I think I know what you mean by x , however it only worked for me 2 weeks max after the real trip, beyond that I needed more ex...and I thought it was just a pleasent flashback now and than.


The X thing happens with me every time I meditate and try and replicate the feeling.

Cannabis is far more complicated and releases different neuro transmitters at the same time. 

It takes belief. You make yourself believe that you feel a certain way. Smokers, next time you need a cigarette, try convincing yourself that you've just had one. Feel the smoke as it glides down your throat. Feel it in your head as the brain releases the chemicals. It really is quite easy.

We take drugs because we are lazy and do not BELIEVE we have full control over our brains.


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## krime13 (Jun 14, 2007)

Ok one at a time, preQ , yes stuff like that, it might seem minor now for you ,but there will be the point in your life when you will have a choice, keep your vices and be a slave, or change your self and be something great, the sooner you make a choice the easier your jurney will be, but deep inside you already knew this...


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## krime13 (Jun 14, 2007)

Skunkyshy, you describe great, and quiet advanced meditation technics, why than say that meditation is not real? And yes in the ideal world it is possible yo kalm nicfit with a mentall sigarette, however in my world that cigarette often saves a life of another idiot who managed to piss me off, and I'm not easilly pissed off, Its seems that in the persuit of happiness I have become a slave to my freedoms...I would really like to elaborate on this, but its really getting kind of personal and due to the nature of this site...


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 14, 2007)

Meditation IS real. What i mean is that it is a trick, a way of conning ourselves that we are accomplishing something by thinking about nothing. 

My form of meditation includes investigating thoughts... not just thoughts but the thoughts behind the thoughts... they branch off like trees. I also believe that we can cure OURSELVES of illnesses by mere thought alone.

Understanding thought is the true path to enlightenment, not ignoring it.


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## 4theist20 (Jun 15, 2007)

> My form of meditation includes investigating thoughts... not just thoughts but the thoughts behind the thoughts... they branch off like trees. I also believe that we can cure OURSELVES of illnesses by mere thought alone.


 Skunkushybrid

As far as meditation goes, I really don't give a shit about it. It may hold certain benefits, it may not. I don't care, either way it exists within the realm of atheism. So it's not on my hit list. But as far as curing ourselves of illnesses by thought. Please give a little more information. I'd like to see someone cure themselves of brain damage just by thinking 'happy thoughts.'


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 15, 2007)

Brain damage? Why so pedantic?

Two people have been in the news recently, both claiming to have cured THEMSELVES of AIDS.

What is cancer?

It's not about happy thoughts either, when did I say that? I said by thought alone, I didn't mention anything about the type of thoughts.

If thought cannot cure you from illnesses then why is stress the cause of so many illnesses?

We all meditate, even if it's just for the 14 mins (on average) it takes us to get to sleep, and then sleep is the deepest meditation of all... after that it's unconsciousness and death. This is why things always seem better in the morning.

I'm not a buddhist or religous in any way... but I do believe that MANKIND has more power than we give ourselves credit for. We have billions of neuro transmitters and scientists only understand about a handful of how these transmitters work. Yet, we are in control of our brains... nay, we SHOULD be in control of our brains. Yet a lot of people let their brains control them. 
A kind of AUTO-PILOT, if you will.

My form of meditation seeks to understand MYSELF (therefore understanding other people on a basic level). I believe that emotion gives off energy, an energy that we can feel (not see, unless of course you are so in tune that the strength of emotion can seem almost visible). 

When someone is really angry, striding through the street like they don't give a fuck. Is it only their body language and facial signals that make us move to the side out of their way? Or is there something more?

Energy. Maybe?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 15, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Understanding thought is the true path to enlightenment, not ignoring it.


kinda vague, mind elaborating? i find that where i am now, that theres no ignoring going on when i turn off my mind. its not like holding my breath or trying not to blink, its more like keeping myself from biting my nails.



skunkushybrid said:


> When someone is really angry, striding through the street like they don't give a fuck. Is it only their body language and facial signals that make us move to the side out of their way? Or is there something more?
> 
> Energy. Maybe?


no what makes u get out of there way is that "victim mentality" u got going.

kidding. i definitely fallow u with the energy thing. i wouldnt be suprised tho if it was just an illusionary byproduct of body language.


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## 4theist20 (Jun 15, 2007)

> Two people have been in the news recently, both claiming to have cured THEMSELVES of AIDS.


I think their both liars, or they're just mistaken. AIDS has no cure. 



> It's not about happy thoughts either, when did I say that? I said by thought alone, I didn't mention anything about the type of thoughts.


Yeah, I just said 'happy thoughts' because I thought you'd like it. lol



> If thought cannot cure you from illnesses then why is stress the cause of so many illnesses?
> 
> Yet, we are in control of our brains... nay, we SHOULD be in control of our brains. Yet a lot of people let their brains control them.
> A kind of AUTO-PILOT, if you will.
> ...


If you're talking about acne or constipation brought on by stress I'll give it to you. Calm thoughts may very well be all you need to cure yourself of these stress related symptoms, but AIDS, ALS, parapalegic patients... No amount of thought will cure these things. I agree that when people are happier they tend to be healthier, no doubt. But I don't believe in some mysterious power within us to cure all sickness. Something as simple as the common cold or the flu are beyond our 'Happy thought' defense. 

And I don't believe in the 'emotional energy' thing either. Like Preo and yourself already said... Body language.


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## closet.cult (Jun 15, 2007)

I believe in the power of the mind to heal ourselves. I have never had occasion to be ill and use my mind to heal myself, but it makes perfect sense and many sick ones have testified as much.

The reason I believe in the power of mind is precisely because its internal. It's not supernatural...it's natural. If the monks can use meditation to raise their body temperature to sleep without blankets in below zero weather on top of a mountain, they've tapped into a power which is in all of us.

It is gullible to believe just anyone's claims about aids and cancer. But I do not doubt that the power is there. And I'll tell you what, if I was diagnosed with any serious illness, I would immediatlly begin meditation techniques in addition to modern medicine. It is well proven that the mind has power. Why not take every chance you can get?


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 15, 2007)

There are several recorded facts of people healing themselves with thought alone.

Ever gone to battle with a virus? You need to not just conjure up some image of the virus but actually see it inside you. Seek it out, and then destroy it.

both of the AIDS guys were diagnosed, and both cleared themselves of the virus. The doctors could only claim that some sort of error must've happened at the diagnosis.

This is something I have believed for a very long time. Something I even practise from time to time.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 15, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> I think their both liars, or they're just mistaken. AIDS has no cure.


there is no medical cure for AIDS. imagine that the only way for an AIDS victim to be cured was for them to do it urself. what would happen to the medicine industry if it was common knowledge that u could heal urself of viruses and such? what would happen to religion if so much power was attributed to a single human mind? it wouldnt surprise me if this was just being held under wraps by the different organizations that would disintegrate by it getting out. 

and if u keep in mind too that most of us eat so much stuff our bodies cant use (processed foods that contain chemicals that are later heated to very high temperatures (cooking) leaving us with damaged fuel for our bodies), our bodies are anchored down to a stretched-out pattern of eating and recuperation that takes alot of effort to maintain.

if u take away useless stress and start fueling urself right ur body will have much more energy. how is it completely unbelievable that people have rid themselves of AIDS?


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 16, 2007)

It has also been proven that taking paracetamol actually causes headaches. I never get headaches that last longer than a few seconds, headaches are bullshit. So too is asthma, another bullshit condition easily solved by your own mind.

Many conditions are actually created by yourself. Some people actually get comfort from having things 'wrong' with them.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 16, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Some people actually get comfort from having things 'wrong' with them.


everybody ive ever known


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 16, 2007)

preoQpydDlusion said:


> everybody ive ever known


Me too, but there are those I've helped see the light.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 16, 2007)

of what light do u speak?


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 16, 2007)

I suppose I'd say it's... a reminder that we are in control of ourselves. It depends on you how far you wish to explore this. 

Maybe we have some true power that we are afraid to tap into. When in meditation, often I'll approach something unseen that gives me a little apprehension. I don't know what it is, only that it is something very, very deep. A precarious precipice. Maybe this is the place you go when you die. A sentient nothingness.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 16, 2007)

u mentioned apprehension to it- have u attempted to explore it?
if u have, have u attempted to explore it with a clear mind, not holding back in the least?

i experienced something like this not too long ago, im just now remembering. i actually thought i was going to do something really bad to myself by not resisting to this weird feeling i was getting at the time. i dont remember much tho. maybe it wasnt even similar to what ur talking about...


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 16, 2007)

preoQpydDlusion said:


> u mentioned apprehension to it- have u attempted to explore it?
> if u have, have u attempted to explore it with a clear mind, not holding back in the least?


No. The apprehension is only minimal as I will not go there... I believe it is death.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 16, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> No. The apprehension is only minimal as I will not go there... I believe it is death.


...
im pretty sure i kno what ur talking about. in all honesty, it was a pretty big night for me. i cant remember what happened after i pushed but my head doesnt work the same anymore.

the times uve questioned me when i say im not afraid of death. consider this my proof. 

"its only after weve lost everything that were free to do anything"


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 16, 2007)

preoQpydDlusion said:


> ...
> "its only after weve lost everything that were free to do anything"


Yet we must be alive to do it.

What I'm describing might help describe sudden death syndrome, or dying from old age. Do people just suddenly die, or do they decide to?


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## 4theist20 (Jun 17, 2007)

> how is it completely unbelievable that people have rid themselves of AIDS?


Preo - Because there is no cure for AIDS. 

Skunk - I have athsma, there is nothing bullshit about it. There is nothing bullshit about any of those medical conditions. To say that they are 'all in the head' is just being ignorant. 

Show EVIDENCE to support your claims.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 17, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> Preo - Because there is no cure for AIDS.
> 
> Skunk - I have athsma, there is nothing bullshit about it. There is nothing bullshit about any of those medical conditions. To say that they are 'all in the head' is just being ignorant.
> 
> Show EVIDENCE to support your claims.


The evidence is within you. 

Next time you have an asthma attack, instead of reaching for the inhaler try calming yourself and concentrate on breathing. You are in control of your body.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 18, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> Preo - Because there is no cure for AIDS.
> 
> Skunk - I have athsma, there is nothing bullshit about it. There is nothing bullshit about any of those medical conditions. To say that they are 'all in the head' is just being ignorant.
> 
> Show EVIDENCE to support your claims.


*H*ow do u kno theres no cure for aids?

*W*hat the fuck is evidence? there are no real truths about the real world, its all theory. everything u think u kno could be "proven" wrong tomorrow. what would u do? maybe u should open ur mind a little more and question things. like the definitions of "EVIDENCE" and "medical condition".

how many times have u been hospitalized because of serious asthma attacks? i was with a girl not too long ago that had been 7 times, the attacks were happening increasingly often when i met her. one day when we were out an attack was triggered and she wasnt carrying an inhaler. she called her mom and they went to their family doctor.

while we waited for her mom tho, we sat on this hill. i had her in my arms (my chest to her back) and i was breathing real deep and slow. by the time her ma showed the girl was completely fine (not that it took her mom took forever, they usually made a big deal about this stuff. took her maybe 10 minutes). later that night she told me when she concentrated on my heartbeat and breathing it was easy to calm down. she told herself she wasnt scared so she didnt struggle and choke, and like i said by the time her mom got there she was breathing normally again. 

last time i spoke to her she hasnt been hospitalized since.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 18, 2007)

Thanks preo'... I have 'cured' a few (3) people of asthma using similar techniques. It's as though they suddenly believe they cannot breathe. If they haven't got the 'magical' inhaler this can lead to them panicking, making the attack more severe. It really is very easy to conquer asthma. My gf hasn't suffered an attack in 8 years, neither has her brother. I also 'cured' a friend of mine of his affliction too. This is not bullshit, which is how I know asthma is.


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## 4theist20 (Jun 18, 2007)

> *H*ow do u kno theres no cure for aids?
> 
> *W*hat the fuck is evidence? there are no real truths about the real world, its all theory. everything u think u kno could be "proven" wrong tomorrow. what would u do? maybe u should open ur mind a little more and question things. like the definitions of "EVIDENCE" and "medical condition".


There is no cure for AIDS. Doesn't take a fuckin' genius to realize this. 

And please... I'm not into that whole, bullshit scene, 'What's real?' What is evidence?' 'How do we all know we're not just dreaming?' I call that shit 'Stoner philosphy' Because you asked stupid rhetorical queastions about the meaning of 'life' and 'being' when you get fucked up on some good herb. I love when people tell me to 'open my mind' It's a nice way of saying 'Just believe everything I tell you and don't bother investigating the validity of my claims.'

I have been hospitalized once as a child. I too have faught off athsma attacks without my inhaler. It doesn't mean I have ever CURED myself of athsma though! Jesus fuckin' Christ.

You would think with all the gifted intelligent learned Doctors and physicians in the world, many of whom devote their entire careers to fighting athsma, SOMEONE would have figured out that all you needed to do was tell the patients to calm down. LOL!!! Why don't you guys go write a couple of books. 'Dr. Preo's and Dr. Skunks CURE for athsma!' I'm sure you'll make millions.

The sad thing is if people actually believed in this shit, and stopped taking their medication, eventually they would scar up their lungs and have an even harder time fighting for air.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 18, 2007)

Asthma is in your head. This is why doctors cannot cure it. My gf is very athletic, works out every day. Since I told her that it was all bullshit she's never suffered another attack, neither has her brother.

Also you cannot say that there is no cure for aids, merely that one hasn't been found. Really you should say no KNOWN cure.

It is we that are in control of our bodies. Do you not think it possible that we could control our immune systems just as we do our arms or legs? As a baby it takes time to learn to move the hands properly, takes practise. If you never investigate the possibility that we have greater control over ourselves than we generally perceive then you will live in constant ignorance.

I find it difficult to believe myself... not the asthma, that's an easy one... I'm talking about the true power we have, that I KNOW we have. Maybe it takes evolution, but maybe evolution takes practise.


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## Chiceh (Jun 18, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> There is no cure for AIDS. Doesn't take a fuckin' genius to realize this.
> 
> And please... I'm not into that whole, bullshit scene, 'What's real?' What is evidence?' 'How do we all know we're not just dreaming?' I call that shit 'Stoner philosphy' Because you asked stupid rhetorical queastions about the meaning of 'life' and 'being' when you get fucked up on some good herb. I love when people tell me to 'open my mind' It's a nice way of saying 'Just believe everything I tell you and don't bother investigating the validity of my claims.'
> 
> ...


Wow, if people actually stopped taking their medications ll together, the drug companies would loose money. They have cures for so many diseases, but they make more money treating them rather that curing them. If you are well, you won't take medicines.


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## ozstone (Jun 18, 2007)

Fuckin some heavy shit goin on in here, wow there are other people like me out there that believe in conspiracy theories when it comes to Disease, Illness, mind control and a whole lot of other shit. I dunno about asthma being bullshit tho, doesnt it have something to do with little air sacks not workin, but I do believe that its presence is a by product of some wierd ass shit that a Government Agency from who knows where put stuff in our water or air to create an epedemic capable of inducing massive and sustainable profits for pharmaceutical companies.
So too is Aids- 
1982 -31 people were diagnosed with HIV now 40 million people w/wide are infected, what better way to control the population of mostly undesirable,unproductive and umoralistic sections of the wider community (Drug Users, Third World Citizens and Gay's) 
Unfortuanately there are others who become infected ( Casualties of War)

I should say right now I hold no personal dislike for any of the above.

Just my two cents worth, I just believe there is more to our existance and shit goin on around us than the Intelligentsia would have us really believe.

Oz


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## Chiceh (Jun 18, 2007)

ozstone said:


> Fuckin some heavy shit goin on in here, wow there are other people like me out there that believe in conspiracy theories when it comes to Disease, Illness, mind control and a whole lot of other shit. I dunno about asthma being bullshit tho, doesnt it have something to do with little air sacks not workin, but I do believe that its presence is a by product of some wierd ass shit that a Government Agency from who knows where put stuff in our water or air to create an epedemic capable of inducing massive and sustainable profits for pharmaceutical companies.
> So too is Aids-
> 1982 -31 people were diagnosed with HIV now 40 million people w/wide are infected, what better way to control the population of mostly undesirable,unproductive and umoralistic sections of the wider community (Drug Users, Third World Citizens and Gay's)
> Unfortuanately there are others who become infected ( Casualties of War)
> ...


Fuckin heavy is right oz, I hear ya on the "theories" too. Do they really think we are that stupid?


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 18, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> What I'm describing might help describe sudden death syndrome, or dying from old age. Do people just suddenly die, or do they decide to?


u must allow ur superficial self to die if u wish to clearly see what u truly are. u have responsibilities that i cannot identify with, so i cant judge, but i hope u will explore this feeling more man, it could change ur life in a monumental way. that resistance u feel is a product of the mind, it is afraid of disappearing.

but u are not ur mind. i am certain now that u really havent been there, no disrespect intended. _ur_ mind has tricked _u_ into thinking u turned it off, but that doesnt mean u went as far as u can go.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 18, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> There is no cure for AIDS. Doesn't take a fuckin' genius to realize this.


no it takes a stupid fuck to accept that.



4theist20 said:


> And please... I'm not into that whole, bullshit scene, 'What's real?' What is evidence?' 'How do we all know we're not just dreaming?' I call that shit 'Stoner philosphy' Because you asked stupid *rhetorical* queastions about the meaning of 'life' and 'being' when you get fucked up on some good herb. *I love when people tell me to 'open my mind' It's a nice way of saying 'Just believe everything I tell you and don't bother investigating the validity of my claims.'*


when the fuck did i say anything about dreaming? what u need to do right now is stop assuming me to be a unintelligent person. not only are u disrespecting me (uve made me cry twice now) ur disrespecting urself because ur not allowing urself to exercise ur fullest mental abilities. my questions were not rhetorical, by assuming me stupid u completely lost my point.

u need to open ur mind because ur fucking stupid. ur narrowmindedness has made u an intolerable, ignorant person. not only no u have no idea what ur talking about, u make it hard for ppl to offer u insight because u hold ur personal views with so much regard.

and about u thinking that ppl telling u to open ur mind is just a way for them to covertly oppress u- goddamn. no wonder ur so ignorant. u must be a miserable person.



4theist20 said:


> I have been hospitalized once as a child. I too have faught off athsma attacks without my inhaler. It doesn't mean I have ever CURED myself of athsma though! Jesus fuckin' Christ.
> 
> You would think with all the gifted intelligent learned Doctors and physicians in the world, many of whom devote their entire careers to fighting athsma, SOMEONE would have figured out that all you needed to do was tell the patients to calm down. LOL!!! Why don't you guys go write a couple of books. 'Dr. Preo's and Dr. Skunks CURE for athsma!' I'm sure you'll make millions.


do u really think the medicine industry would encourage ppl healing themselves?  how would they make their moeny? the fact that my girl fought off the attack wasnt my point. the point was that she doesnt suffer symptoms any more. she technically still has asthma, but it doesnt effect her.



4theist20 said:


> The sad thing is if people actually believed in this shit, and stopped taking their medication, eventually they would scar up their lungs and have an even harder time fighting for air.


nope. dont kno what ur talking about. u sound like a whiny bitch that not only accepts his 'limitations' but celebrates them. with concrete limitations it makes it easier to waste ur life without wrestling with ur conscious too much, wouldnt u say?


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## 4theist20 (Jun 19, 2007)

> Quote:
> Originally Posted by *4theist20*
> _There is no cure for AIDS. Doesn't take a fuckin' genius to realize this._
> 
> no it takes a stupid fuck to accept that.


Alright, you took it to a new level. Show me one fucking case dip shit.



> when the fuck did i say anything about dreaming? what u need to do right now is stop assuming me to be a unintelligent person. not only are u disrespecting me (uve made me cry twice now) ur disrespecting urself because ur not allowing urself to exercise ur fullest mental abilities. my questions were not rhetorical, by assuming me stupid u completely lost my point.


Fuck what I said about dreaming asshole. You obviously missed my point. I never assumed you to be an unintelligent person, in fact in another thread I recall very vividly telling you exactly the opposite. 



> u need to open ur mind because ur fucking stupid. ur narrowmindedness has made u an intolerable, ignorant person. not only no u have no idea what ur talking about, u make it hard for ppl to offer u insight because u hold ur personal views with so much regard.


You have failed to supply one example of someone curing themselves of some incurable ailment. YOU have failed to convince me because you are talking out your fucking ass. Stop trying to make ME out to be the idiot because YOU cannot back up your claims with evidence. You expect me to simply take your word for it? This is not about my personal views or your personal views. This is about how sickness and the mind/body work. We disagree over it. Please Preo. I do not wish to fight with you or Skunk. I think you guys often bring up interesting arguments. Over this issue, we both disagree. Nothing wrong with that.



> and about u thinking that ppl telling u to open ur mind is just a way for them to covertly oppress u- goddamn. no wonder ur so ignorant. u must be a miserable person.


Most people that tell me to 'open my mind' are usually religious/spiritual people. I was not saying that they're trying to oppress me, just trying to bypass the hard work of convincing me. I am ignorant to a lot of things. I openly admit it, and I also admit that I do spend much of my time feeling depressed. But I find joy in life as well.



> do u really think the medicine industry would encourage ppl healing themselves?  how would they make their moeny? the fact that my girl fought off the attack wasnt my point. the point was that she doesnt suffer symptoms any more. she technically still has asthma, but it doesnt effect her.


Honestly, you might agree with Ozstone, that there's some government/pharmecutical conspiracy going on, but I personally am not big on consiracy theories. I think the majority are bullshit. This is not to say that I cannot be convinced one way or the other with sufficient evidence. I am not a narrow minded person. In fact, I think of myself as a very open minded person, but I require evidence. And I agree with you. Your GF STILL has athsma. Nothing has been cured. Controlled maybe... But for how long?



> nope. dont kno what ur talking about. u sound like a whiny bitch that not only accepts his 'limitations' but celebrates them. with concrete limitations it makes it easier to waste ur life without wrestling with ur conscious too much, wouldnt u say?


Maybe you don't know what I'm talking about because you don't have athsma.... And I do.

I'm not going to lie to you or Skunk. When it comes to athsma, I will take an Athsma Doctor's advice above either of yours any day of the week. If this thread were about astronomy, I would take a cosmologists advice above yours, If it were plumbing, a plumbers advice. This just makes sense to me. The only thing I know about you two is you're in one way or another interested in growing marijuana. So start a thread about growing weed and I promise I'll take your advice.

But what do I know? I'm just a little whiny bitch that's in love with his own limitations.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

After a quick search, I found this. There are hundreds of reported cases of people curing THEMSELVES of 'terminal' illnesses. Using what they claim to be their own mind. Asthma is nothing.



From The Sunday Times



November 13, 2005


*Doctors baffled as HIV man cures himself*




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Sophie Kirkham 


A MAN who tested positive for HIV, the virus that causes Aids, has subsequently shown up negative for the disease in a case that has mystified doctors. It was claimed last night that Andrew Stimpson, 25, may have shaken off the virus with his own immune system after contracting HIV in 2002. 
If proved, the NHS has said the case would be medically remarkable. It could provide vital information to researchers looking into treatments for HIV and Aids, which has killed about 3,800 people in Britain since the 1980s. 
The worldwide annual death toll is more than 3m. 
The Chelsea and Westminster Healthcare NHS trust, which treated Stimpson, has said he needs to undergo more tests before it can be established how he apparently conquered HIV. 
These tests were accurate and they were his, but what we dont know at the moment is why that has happened, and we want him to come back in for more tests, said a spokeswoman. It is potentially a fantastic thing. 
Stimpson was tested three times in August 2002 at the Victoria clinic for sexual health in central London and the results showed he was producing HIV antibodies to fight the disease. 
Stimpson, originally from Largs in Ayrshire, contracted the virus from his boyfriend, Juan Gomez, 44. He began taking vitamins and other dietary supplements to keep his body healthy in the hopes that this might fend off the development of full-blown Aids. 
In October 2003, after impressing doctors with his good health, Stimpson was offered a new test, which came back negative. Further tests in December 2003 and March last year also proved negative. 
It was the last thing I expected. I was astonished. I was baffled too, he told the News of the World. I couldnt understand how anyone could cure themselves of HIV . . . I thought it had to be wrong because no one can recover from HIV, it just doesnt happen. 
The tests were re-checked by the Chelsea and Westminster Healthcare NHS Trust when Stimpson threatened litigation believing there must be a mistake, but the results confirmed all the tests had been accurate. 
In a letter understood to be from the NHS Litigation Authority in October this year, Stimpson was told: The fact you have recovered from a positive antibody result to a negative result is exceptional and medically remarkable. 
The trust said there had been several other cases of claimed spontaneous clearance of the virus worldwide, although it is not believed any have been proved. A spokeswoman added that the trust had urged Stimpson to return for tests, but that so far he had not done so.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

I disagree preo'... I enjoy my thoughts in all their complexities. when you believe you are clearing your mind of thought I believe this is fake. Even when you believe you are not thinking, you are. Your mind does not register all thought, or rather it does not remember it.

We are thought, without it we are either unconscious or dead. Yes, we may be able to hide for a while from the type of thoughts that plague us with decision or indecision, but all thought? No way.


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## 4theist20 (Jun 19, 2007)

> After a quick search, I found this. There are hundreds of reported cases of people curing THEMSELVES of 'terminal' illnesses. Using what they claim to be their own mind. Asthma is nothing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


To that all I can say is how dare that piece of shit not return for testing... The hope for thousands of lives could reside within his body. You still have failed to show evidence of 'pure thought' curing incurable disease. Or, Ailments with unknown cures if you will. No doubt that shit is amazing... Was it done with thought? Or was something else at work? There is also the chance that perhaps the original 'positive' test was wrong.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

There have been occasions where it is believed the testing may have been wrong, but I chose this one as it stated the tests were accurate.

This was found on a search for AIDS. There are also cases of cancers, spine repairals, all sorts of amazing, scientifically documented, cases of people healing themselves.

I honestly believe that with practise we can become more powerful human beings. Maybe the future eradication of disease isn't through cure, but through disassociation.


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## mogie (Jun 19, 2007)

The only way we can become more powerful human beings is by either becoming better humans or seeing through other humans lines of crap. Otherwise we staginate or we are just sheep blindly being lead to slaughter. Sadly the biggest portion of our population are sheep.


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

Hey mogie! stop it! that hurts.


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## preoQpydDlusion (Jun 19, 2007)

4theist20 said:


> Honestly, you might agree with Ozstone, that there's some government/pharmecutical conspiracy going on, but I personally am not big on consiracy theories. I think the majority are bullshit. This is not to say that I cannot be convinced one way or the other with sufficient evidence. I am not a narrow minded person. In fact, I think of myself as a very open minded person, but I require evidence. And I agree with you. Your GF STILL has athsma. Nothing has been cured. Controlled maybe... But for how long?


my friend has been breathing healthy for about fives yrs now (last i heard).

u kno, i work myself into some stubborn arguments from time to time, but this isnt appealing to me at all. u just seemed to have a slightly negative outlook on this subject, somehow that clashed with me. add the fact i took shit personally and this is what we got.

sorry for throwing around the insults in the last post, i dont have any solid proof that says its one way or the other. id rather go with the happy, hopeful assumption in this case and i recall certain things ive seen with people heating up their body temps with concentration, and scientists explaining how our mindsets control how our bodies are shaped (but that bit goes vice-versa).

the point id like to make is that its not automatically my responsibility to be the one digging up proof, u dont have evidence to proove ur claim either. sure, it isnt especially well documented that this is fully possible, but it isnt documented that its impossible. so then it goes down to logic which side makes more sense. u havent shown any logic so i dont see an argument.

but yeah, to be clear, i apologize and give up. the childish things i do sometimes...


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## Chiceh (Jun 19, 2007)

mogie said:


> The only way we can become more powerful human beings is by either becoming better humans or seeing through other humans lines of crap. Otherwise we staginate or we are just sheep blindly being lead to slaughter. Sadly the biggest portion of our population are sheep.


I agree with mogie.

Chiceh


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## skunkushybrid (Jun 19, 2007)

It is also possible to speed up your heart rate and slow it down. This is very easy. A nice starting trick is to learn to wiggle just your little toe on it's own. You probably won't be able to do this at first as you actually need to concentrate to do it.

Headaches can evaporate with just thought alone... I'd advise anybody to throw away their painkillers. I know that some people lie... the tiniest amount of stress and they claim a headache. This in turn actually creates a headache. Belief is a very powerful tool. In medievil times monks would bash their heads off rocks their belief in a god such that they did not feel the pain. In their mind they transferred the thought of pain into one of joy.

This is my body, and it is I that is in control.


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## mogie (Jun 19, 2007)

First of all people need to see through the dogma they are being taught in church. What is being taught and what Christ message was are in many instances two different things.


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