# Seed Predisposition



## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

This is a very strong subject at the moment... and also one I am yet to recieve any satisfactory answers for. Are seeds pre-disposed to be one sex or the other? To my mind, seed pre-disposition means that the seed will have one stronger chromosome than the other. In other words, cannabis will have both chromosomes, but either the male or female chromosome will be dominant, with the other dormant (I believe this is in degrees)

If we don't agree that seeds are pre-disposed, then what does this leave? 
This leaves a-sexuality, and hermaphroditism. Hermaphroditism is when both chromosomes are of equal dominance in the plant. It is also presently believed that the hermaphrodite 'gene' is stronger than either just male or female on it's own (this info' came from a breeder, i haven't checked it out). So, for me, this rules out hermaphroditism as a possibility.

We are now left with a-sexuality... my understanding of this is limited. Although, to my mind asexuality, is when a life-form has no sexual organs... Could cannabis actually be born a-sexual? and then decide from the environment what sex it is going to be? I doubt this. I doubt it because over the years we have noticed that, for the most part, male and female plants have different growth patterns. Males tall and thin, fem's short and bushy.

So, I think that seeds are pre-disposed to be one sex or the other... and that if this is the case. For 24/0 to have an effect on male/female ratios would mean the plant would have to do a complete sex reversal. one chromosome would need to go from dormant to dominant, just because of the longer day? I'll have to leave it here, there is more tucked away...


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## crazy-mental (Nov 28, 2007)

i dont understand.
isnt 1 seed going to be male? and 1 seed be female?. and due to envo. a female will/may turn hermie or not. unless it was a hermie to start with.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

seeds are predisposed.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

Excellent. Now we agree on that. Why would cannabis do a complete sex reversal under 24/0?


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Excellent. Now we agree on that. Why would cannabis do a complete sex reversal under 24/0?



i've never physically seen it happen. i've seen "true" hermies. male on one side female on the other. i've seen 1 or 2 single male flowers on a finishing female. but i have NEVER seen a plant "reverse" sex. what exactly is this?


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## crazy-mental (Nov 28, 2007)

when i was looking for fem seeds. on a web site. it said that 24/0 made more hermies, and it would be better to do 18/6. i cannot see the diff. if they wernt hermie to start with, are they saying that diff. lite cycles, change a plants sex. i dont understsnd.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i've never physically seen it happen. i've seen &quot;true&quot; hermies. male on one side female on the other. i've seen 1 or 2 single male flowers on a finishing female. but i have NEVER seen a plant &quot;reverse&quot; sex. what exactly is this?


well, if a seed is predisposed to be one sex or the other how can it be that the environment can play a part in how many males there are? For this to happen, a pre-disposed plant must complete a full sex reversal. 

There's a lot of bullshit on the web about this. Videoman was the first to bring it to this site. I argued with him then... but more and more this bullshit is spreading. I think it needs to be talked out.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> well, if a seed is predisposed to be one sex or the other how can it be that the environment can play a part in how many males there are? For this to happen, a pre-disposed plant must complete a full sex reversal.
> 
> There's a lot of bullshit on the web about this. Videoman was the first to bring it to this site. I argued with him then... but more and more this bullshit is spreading. I think it needs to be talked out.



who said this? has it been proven in a controlled environment? by who? i want sound proof.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

crazy-mental said:


> when i was looking for fem seeds. on a web site. it said that 24/0 made more hermies, and it would be better to do 18/6. i cannot see the diff. if they wernt hermie to start with, are they saying that diff. lite cycles, change a plants sex. i dont understsnd.



i don't understand either. if the environment can determine the outcome of the sex then why bother with feminized seeds? 

marijuana growing seems to have more urban legends then the burbs themselves.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i don't understand either. if the environment can determine the outcome of the sex then why bother with feminized seeds?
> 
> marijuana growing seems to have more urban legends then the burbs themselves.


Yes, but these are myths spread by very respected breeders. They say, "red light causes more males" they say "24/0 causes more males".

Just like you I wanted to see evidence of this. How could they test it in the first place? How long would it take for them to be sure? 50/50 evens out in the end, but when is the end? A 50/50 ratio seems the most likely to me, no matter the environment.

Yet, on this site people regularly feed these myths. Do a certain thing with your lights and you get more fem's. Yeah right. I'm not convinced.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes, but these are myths spread by very respected breeders. They say, "red light causes more males" they say "24/0 causes more males".
> 
> Just like you I wanted to see evidence of this. How could they test it in the first place? How long would it take for them to be sure? 50/50 evens out in the end, but when is the end? A 50/50 ratio seems the most likely to me, no matter the environment.
> 
> Yet, on this site people regularly feed these myths. Do a certain thing with your lights and you get more fem's. Yeah right. I'm not convinced.




you'd have to grow out literally 1000's of seeds from the exact same seed stock from predetermined stable parents. male and female. under controlled environments. with the exact same conditions other then what you are testing for. sounds like BS to me.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

if my wife would have stood on her head while pregnant then we would have had a girl.


something like that?


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

Exactly like that. I'm just waiting for some supporters of 18/6 to come and argue this point about 24/0 causing more males.


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## crazy-mental (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i don't understand either. if the environment can determine the outcome of the sex then why bother with feminized seeds?
> 
> marijuana growing seems to have more urban legends then the burbs themselves.


yes thats what i think. i dont get it. either the thing is or it isnt. there just using the lite thing as a scapegoat. somthing to blame. when the seed doesnt do, what it says. fucking.99.9% fems. bollocks.


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## crazy-mental (Nov 28, 2007)

at the end of the day.
a seed is what it is. i dont think,that under certain cons, that it cud change. plus i think that fem seeds are a load of rubbish. there trying to puzzle us with science.if you ask me.


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## spub69 (Nov 28, 2007)

environment plays a big part in determining a lot of organisms sex ..turtles, water fleas, frogs, reptiles, fish, and many plants ... it is all about survival. while i don't claim to know the process in marijuana, i do think environment plays a big part. it makes sense to have more female plants when conditions are good for growing and breeding, and not so many when things turn for the worse. they are more fit to survive. think about it plants have been around millions of years to evolve ... so even our lovely bud we smoke comes from a plant that had parents, that had parents, that had parents ... which were never eaten, stomped on or generally killed off since the beginning of time. that is till now as it goes out in a puff of smoke. god bless.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

Ah, Now you use the word predetermination. Where does this predetermination take place? In the egg, or when the creature is already born?

"Look, we have a girl... No, wait. Global Warming has turned it into a boy!"


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

It is actually a tested and proven BY REALL SCIENTISTS AND PROFESSORS that many species of plants sex is influenced by environmental factors. There may not have been much testing with marijuana plants but there has been tons of testing done with other species of plants. So if it is true for other species of plants I believe that it could be true for marijuana as well.

Where is your evidence or proof that a seeds sex is 100% predetermined from seed.


also Id just like to add that cannot compare plants to humans or anything else.

"Ah, Now you use the word predetermination. Where does this predetermination take place? In the egg, or when the creature is already born?"

sorry but he used the word DETERMINING not PREdetermining....BIG difference.

There is a bunch of evidence that environmental stress (stress can be good or bad by the way) plays a factor in the final sex of a plant.

Skunk if you really want to say these are myths do a test, abuse the shit out of some plants and keep them on 24/0 then switch them to 12/12 see how many females you get compared to a room with plants on 12/12 from seed, I bet you will get more females in the 12/12 room because my friends dad has been growing for years and has ALWAYS gotten a greater percentage of females with his female winter crop (the plant is on 12/12 from seed) 

You have no reason to at this point in time to call this information mythical or "bullshit" because you have done NOTHING to prove otherwise.

I would like to end this by saying that I am obviously no professional and neither are you so lets leave it to them to decide what is fact or fiction and at the moment MOST profesional growers say that environmental stress effects growth.

I personally have no idea whats true or not at the moment.


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## shamegame (Nov 28, 2007)

I agree with email - If only it were legal we would have tons of truly scientific evidence and sharing of information reviewed by qualified people instead of all these armchair quarterback threads which amount to nothing more than a battle of superstitions and egos.....


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

crazy-mental said:


> at the end of the day.
> a seed is what it is. i dont think,that under certain cons, that it cud change. plus i think that fem seeds are a load of rubbish. there trying to puzzle us with science.if you ask me.


Sorry but female seeds are real.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

shamegame said:


> I agree with email - If only it were legal we would have tons of truly scientific evidence and sharing of information reviewed by qualified people instead of all these armchair quarterback threads which amount to nothing more than a battle of superstitions and egos.....


I agree 100% as well.

but if you look at my post there has been scientific evidence that many species of plants sex is effected by environmental stressors. 

Id also like to say that environmental stress will not make a plant completely change sex and that is not what he or anyone else is trying to say. We are trying to figure out whether or not the future sex of a plant while in the vegetative stage is effected by environmental stress.

I think its crazy that skunk thinks he is the man to go around saying its complete bullshit, but I also think its crazy for someone to say that its a fact that stress can effect sex. That is until the man come along with good scientific evidence.

I say you should stop creating all these threads just for the sake of argument which you made very clear by saying you cant wait for people to come in and argue. This is not the point im trying to make though....my point is that you should not go around calling this information bullshit, that is just going around spreading unproven information which is exactly why you are arguing this information in the first place...yeah?


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

Nice thread skunk, this is a good topic to debate about

Only thing I see why a plant would be male or female, is because males tend to grow faster, so perhaps if the enviroment is bad, the plant somehow knows that a female plant wouldnt have the time to finish, so it shows male flowers?

Not really sure, I kind of believe a seed is what it is, but theres so many myths and such, hard to know whats real.

I think KP posted a long thread about this, ill look for it, and post what she said = )


Lets debate, but keep the peace *<3 *


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

Kindprincess:


*Originally Posted by billybob88 ***
_*i always thought u could never tell sex at seed, thats very interesting. heres some info from the Dutch Passion website on how to gain more females. I quote "From literature and our own findings it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors. The environmental factors that influence gender are:*

*a higher nitrogen concentration will give more females.*
*a higher potassium concentration will give more males.*
*a higher humidity will give more females.*
*a lower temperature will give more females.*
*more blue light will give more females.*
*Fewer hours of light will give more females.*
*It is important to start these changes at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks, before reverting to standard conditions."*_

dp's got some typos in that list; i've been in this one several times....

higher PHOSPHOROUS will give more males. k is not known to have an influence

24 HOUR LIGHTING will result in more females.

other than that, yep


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> You really are a dick.


Why because I stated that you shouldn't go around spreading YOUR myths in order to combat other supposed myths. That is just completely ridiculous and I do not see how you can justify that.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

jackinthebox said:


> Nice thread skunk, this is a good topic to debate about
> 
> Only thing I see why a plant would be male or female, is because males tend to grow faster, so perhaps if the enviroment is bad, the plant somehow knows that a female plant wouldnt have the time to finish, so it shows male flowers?
> 
> ...


Cool, I have a lot of respect for KP. 
I sense a lot of animosity from nowstopwhining (as is getting the norm, lately), it doesn't help matters that he isn't too bright. So arguing with him has little value, as most of what I say goes completely over his head.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Cool, I have a lot of respect for KP.
> I sense a lot of animosity from nowstopwhining (as is getting the norm, lately), it doesn't help matters that he isn't too bright. So arguing with him has little value, as most of what I say goes completely over his head.


obviously what im saying goes right over your head because you cant even respond to it. 

I have no animosity towards you sorry there was not even the slightest bit of anger in any of my responses here.

I am just trying to have a debate...you obviously hold a grudge far to long.

Wheres the proof that im not too bright....your genius response was "dick"

I really dont want to argue...what I would like and appreciate is a thoughtful response towards my thoughts and opinions as I have given yours.


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

Come on guys, this happens everytime, instead of this thread turning into an educational debate, it turns into name calling, and noone learns anything.

Keep the peace guys, we are all here to learn <3


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

jackinthebox said:


> Kindprincess:
> 
> 
> *Originally Posted by billybob88 ***
> ...


Yes, this is the info' I was talking about. They were actually talking about feminised seed... not ordinary seed. That article was misinterpreted and cut n pasted across every forum on the web. DP were talking about feminised seed, and how to produce less males with feminised seed. NOT NORMAL SEED.

To suggest that a plant can complete a full sex reversal in veg' does not sound logical. More likely the plant would hermie, as is its wont.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

jackinthebox said:


> Come on guys, this happens everytime, instead of this thread turning into a educational debate, it turns into name calling, and noone learns anything.
> 
> Keep the peace guys, we are all here to learn <3


theres only one person name calling and that is skunk....like usual.


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

I see, well atleast we got that straitened out.

Well Im pretty sure I saw another thread where KP talks about this subject, I couldnt find it though.

FDD has a chart as well, Ill post that, get all the information in here, so we can learn more


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes, this is the info' I was talking about. They were actually talking about feminised seed... not ordinary seed. That article was misinterpreted and cut n pasted across every forum on the web. DP were talking about feminised seed, and how to produce less males with feminised seed. NOT NORMAL SEED.
> 
> To suggest that a plant can complete a full sex reversal in veg' does not sound logical. More likely the plant would hermie, as is its wont.


there is no reversal going on...

As the theory goes the plants sex is NOT determined until it shows and until then neither sex is actually dominant. So as I said before there is no actual sex reversal....If you even bothered to read my posts you would have read that.


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

FDD posted this. The title of the thread it is posted in is, *determining seed gender* if you would like to look at the thread.


*




*


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> there is no reversal going on...
> 
> As the theory goes the plants sex is NOT determined until it shows and until then neither sex is actually dominant. So as I said before there is no actual sex reversal....If you even bothered to read my posts you would have read that.


 
I am not trying to argue with you, just stateing something. If a plant isnt a sex until it shows flower, then why is it, that we see the same traits with male plants, and the same traits with female plants? Male plants growing faster, and taller, female plants growing a bit slower and bushier.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

jackinthebox said:


> FDD posted this. The title of the thread it is posted in is, *determining seed gender* if you would like to look at the thread.
> 
> 
> *
> ...




As I remember it fdd' backed out pretty quickly when questioned by GK as to how definite this information was.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

jackinthebox said:


> I am not trying to argue with you, just stateing something. If a plant isnt a sex until it shows flower, then why is it, that we see the same traits with male plants, and the same traits with female plants? Male plants growing faster, and taller, female plants growing a bit slower and bushier.




This is what I mean, I'd give up if I were you JITB... I've said all this much earler in the thread already.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> As I remember it fdd' backed out pretty quickly when questioned by GK as to how definite this information was.


still nothing in response to my posts.

You are horribly disrespectful I have not shown you an disrespect in the slightest.


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

Well that was posted again by FDD 11-20, 2007, so I dont think he would repost it, if he didnt think it true.

But as it says, only 1 in 10 seeds will meet the criteria, for the female seed, but yet theres a 50/50 chance of a plant being male or female. I think if you find a seed as described in the picture, its a gureenteed female, but the rest still have a chance of being female?

But if you can find a seed like that, and you know 100% its goign to be female, then wouldnt that seeds sex, already be predisposed, which backs up that theory?


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

This just got posted




thcisme said:


> From literature it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors. For growers who are well experienced, percentage of female plants is 60% - 90% female, but less experienced growers can end up with 100% male plants. The environmental factors that, according to literature, influence gender are:
> - a higher nitrogen concentration will give more females (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks).
> - a higher potassium concentration will give more males (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks).
> - a higher humidity will give more females (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks).
> ...


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

I read the WHOLE article. Videoman first posted that link on this site, and he posted that part of the article. The very title of the article told you it was for fem' seed on the DP website. Yet VM, because they made a new paragraph assumed they had started talking about normal seed, they hadn't. They were still talking about fem' seed. He couldn't understand this, because to him fem' seed is definitely a female, when it isn't.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

jackinthebox said:


> I am not trying to argue with you, just stateing something. If a plant isnt a sex until it shows flower, then why is it, that we see the same traits with male plants, and the same traits with female plants? Male plants growing faster, and taller, female plants growing a bit slower and bushier.


Who is to say that is completely true? 

Different strains i.e. White widow Has two distinct phenos One being a taller lankier more sativa leaning pheno and theres also the more indica leaning pheno which gives you a shorter bushier plant. Both Phenos can be either sex and this is usually the case for most strains.


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> Who is to say that is completely true?
> 
> Different strains i.e. White widow Has two distinct phenos One being a taller lankier more sativa leaning pheno and theres also the more indica leaning pheno which gives you a shorter bushier plant. Both Phenos can be either sex and this is usually the case for most strains.


 
Thats very true, but more times then not, you can tell which plants are more then likely going to be male, and which are going to be female. As you said though, this isnt always the case. Good point = )

Much love growers <3


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## Moldy (Nov 28, 2007)

I've read where the enviroment can affect sex. It was put out by Dutch Passion Seeds and reprinted in Jorge's book. Just briefly... _Low temps (all during seedling growth) increases the number of females, Higher humidity increases females, low growing medium moisture incrases males, More blue light increase females, fewer hours of daylight (e.g. 14 hrs) incrases the number of females, over 18 hours increases males, any "stress" increases males. _Now I'm just the messenger, I don't know if this is true but I know I have a problem with low humidity and never have better than 50% females... but I'm a new grower so I only have a little history. 
>>> First grow W. Widow = 2 out of 10 were female. Bag seeds = 0 out of 6 were female. Skunkberry = 5 out of 10 female but then again that was from Peak Seeds and I hear of 100% females from their normal seeds.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

jackinthebox said:


> Thats very true, but more times then not, you can tell which plants are more then likely going to be male, and which are going to be female. As you said though, this isnt always the case. Good point = )
> 
> Much love growers <3


thank you atleast you can have a good discussion without freeaking like skunk did...

I agree with what your saying but im going to guess there is more to it than we can even realize or maybe the stress slowly effects the sex? 

Honestly I dont know and like I said im not trying to prove anything in here because that is impossible....all im trying to say is that skunk is not helping anything by spreading even more of his own "MYTHS" just for arguments sake.

If he does not want to have a discussion then I want proof that will make discussion impossible

like you said I as well am not trying to argue and when someone calls me dumb because of something I said like skunk did I would love to be shown what I said that was incorrect because I, as well as others will learn from it. He never has the respect to do this.

As I always say debate and discussion is good and advances our thought, logic, and reasoning. Hatred and cursing on the other hand do nothing but hurt our process of thought and reason.


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## Moldy (Nov 28, 2007)

My gut tells me that a seed will "tend" to be one sex or the other... like flipping a coin. I know they can sure be different as QYW quoted about the W.W. My first grow I had two females. One was more indica, shorter etc. while the other was flucking huge (8' in a bathtub)! Even the leaves were showing sativa type narrow pattern and the other had fatty fan leaves. The sativa type plant even smelled and tasted different after curing. I thought that some seeds got mixed up but it sounds like a normal thing.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

i would love for you to do a controlled test Skunk, i would love to see the results. Until then I really dont think you have a right to put place your opinions on this subject above others who im sorry to say I believe are more qualified (please do not take this the wrong way like youve been doing skunk).


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

OK. Back to the facts... if seeds are not predisposed to be one sex or the other then how are they born? With no chromosomes (a-sexual) or with both of equal strength (natural hermaphrodite)?

If you go back to the start of the thread this is all explained. So, let's say that the seed, and resultant plant are a-sexual... and the environment makes the plant decide to be one sex or the other, a: why do only some of them turn male? b: where does the other chromosome come from? as cannabis has both.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> OK. Back to the facts... if seeds are not predisposed to be one sex or the other then how are they born? With no chromosomes (a-sexual) or with both of equal strength (natural hermaphrodite)?
> 
> If you go back to the start of the thread this is all explained. So, let's say that the seed, and resultant plant are a-sexual... and the environment makes the plant decide to be one sex or the other, a: why do only some of them turn male? b: where does the other chromosome come from? as cannabis has both.


very good points, Im thinking it isnt environment alone, I think genetic make up plays a role as well.

I will try and make up a little scenario here:

Lets say we have two seeds A, and B.

Lets say seed a has A has a 40/60 chance to be Female/male While seed B has a 25/75 chance to be Female/male due to genetic makeup alone.

Now with environmental stress during the veg stage lets say seed A now has a 60/40 chance to be female/male and seed be has a 45/55 chance of being female/male.

so now obviously both plants have a chance of going either way but seed A now has a greater chance of being female once placed into flowering. This could obviously go either and I just made this data up but it does an ok job of representing what im getting at.

Im thinking this is how environmental stress plays a role. I dont think plant sex is based solely on genetic makeup or environmental stress, rather a combination of the two.

obviously I could be wrong but it is fact that certain species of plants are effected sexually by environmental stress.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> I agree 100% as well.
> 
> but if you look at my post there has been scientific evidence that many species of plants sex is effected by environmental stressors.
> 
> ...



i called BS also.

i consider myself a "professional".

you should stay out of the "advanced" forum. 

i love you.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i called BS also.
> 
> i consider myself a &quot;professional&quot;.
> 
> ...




Thanks fdd'... I have him on ignore. He pisses me off that much.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i called BS also.
> 
> i consider myself a "professional".
> 
> ...


your saying the scientific research on various plants is bullshit?

Im not saying im right or wrong and im not saying skunk is right or wrong....im saying who knows....that is until someone does some real tests.


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 28, 2007)

Why would you need another chromosome?? I thought it was already agreed in here that they have both Male and Female chromosomes just one becomes dormient and one becomes dominant(in theory obviously,as this whole thread seems to be in theory and opinions) so in that sense I dont see how or even why a magical chromosome would come in to play

secondly wasnt there another thread started by you skunk that says marijuana plants used to be all hermies...is it possible that through out time based on the living conditions and environment the plants have adapted to becoming either one or the other?? 

IMO it would make more sense to be one or the other bc instead of splitting a plant in half one side male and one side female you are reducing the amount of potential seeds..if you have separate male and female plants youd get alot more reproduction done and frankly I think this is why marijuana evolved to producing either one or the other instead of all hermies.. 

Theres nothing that proves seeds are asexual and then turn a certain sex once flowered but theres also no proof saying the seed you pick up is def. a male or def. a female and nothing will change it(other then feminized)

I think weve got to remember that Yes marijuana has evolved over the hundreds of years but its still a simple plant, a weed if you will, it seems that just bc it gives us a high and makes us feel all good that we have to return the favor and talk the plant up to be some smart-before its time-super plant
Just my opinions


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> your saying the scientific research on various plants is bullshit?
> 
> Im not saying im right or wrong and im not saying skunk is right or wrong....im saying who knows....that is until someone does some real tests.



various??? various marijuana plants?



actually you told skunk to stop spreading BS. 


i don't think i want to take the word of a company who is pushing a $200 ten pack of "femminized seeds". i can start pulling threads of all the people who ended up with MALES. if it is because of something the grower did then it's NOT a femminized seed is it? and if you can effect the sex by the way you grow then why femminized seeds at all?


i trust the people on this board. WE, my friend, are the ones who know. WE hold the knowledge. WE are the professionals.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

I keep asking myself, what do I do about this guy? Ruining threads like this is not very healthy for the site. Especially not in the Advanced Forum.

What is it with this guy?


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> various??? various marijuana plants?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Im not talking about strains of marijuana, im talking about different species of plants.

This is not info from marijuana seed breeders

Im talking about tests done at universitys by botanists on other species of plants....they have proven that certain species of plants are effected sexually by environmental stress. 

They obviously didnt perform these tests on marijuana but it does prove that it is possible for marijuana to have these traits as well.

I am not "ruining" this thread. What did I do to "ruin" it. 

I thought this thread was geared towards debate.....

bottomline it is impossible for us to take anything said in this thread as FACT untill real tests are done on actual marijuana plants. So Skunks debate that he started here has no real point until we get some facts.

Someone needs to do some tests.....and until then.....


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> Im not talking about strains of marijuana, im talking about different species of plants.
> 
> Im talking about tests done at universitys on other species of plants....they have proven that certain species of plants are effected sexually by environmental stress.
> 
> They obviously didnt perform these tests on marijuana but it does prove that it is possible for marijuana to have these traits as well.




that leaves a huge gap of unanswered questions.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> Why would you need another chromosome?? I thought it was already agreed in here that they have both Male and Female chromosomes just one becomes dormient and one becomes dominant(in theory obviously,as this whole thread seems to be in theory and opinions) so in that sense I dont see how or even why a magical chromosome would come in to play
> 
> 
> SmokeUmPipe said:
> ...


----------



## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> Why would you need another chromosome?? I thought it was already agreed in here that they have both Male and Female chromosomes just one becomes dormient and one becomes dominant(in theory obviously,as this whole thread seems to be in theory and opinions) so in that sense I dont see how or even why a magical chromosome would come in to play
> 
> secondly wasnt there another thread started by you skunk that says marijuana plants used to be all hermies...is it possible that through out time based on the living conditions and environment the plants have adapted to becoming either one or the other??
> 
> ...



you must have saw my post before i deleted it. i thought i knew what i was saying then got lost in all the X's and Y's.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> Im not talking about strains of marijuana, im talking about different species of plants.
> 
> Im talking about tests done at universitys on other species of plants....they have proven that certain species of plants are effected sexually by environmental stress.
> 
> ...




it's a FACT that males come from femminized seeds. unless people on this board are fibbing.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> that leaves a huge gap of unanswered questions.




Yes it does, let's see the evidence. that's what this forum is for.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> that leaves a huge gap of unanswered questions.



no it just goes on to prove that environmental stress COULD play a role and nobody can be sure who is right or wrong.

I am not talking about feminized seeds here and niether is skunk...we are talking about regular seeds. I dont where you saw me talking about femenized seeds.


skunk needs to stop commenting on the things you are saying to me because he ignored me and obviously cant read anything im saying.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

Here's some, in argument for predsiposition.:

This chapter is really in two sections. The first, which comprises the text itself, is a general statement of what is currently known with reasonable certainty about the origin and development, in the maturing individual, of the differences in both form and function between the two sexes. It is important to be aware of these facts because, as will be seen in due course, they have a direct bearing on the taking of Eve out of Adam. The subject also has a direct bearing on the Virgin Birth and the Incarnation. The other section which might have appeared as supporting footnotes were it not as extensive as the text itself (!), will be found in the form of expanded notes which have been relegated to the Reference Section. These scientific excursions are primarily intended for those who by background and training will wish to have a more detailed treatment of the evidence. These notes can be safely disregarded without any harm being done to the thread of the argument by those who do not desire to become involved in technical detail. The continuity of this study will not be seriously disturbed if they are simply ignored. The body of the text itself, however, has a very direct bearing on the creation of Eve out of Adam and is therefore quite essential to what follows later.When the female ovum is fertilized by the male, there is initiated an incredibly complex chain of events which culminate nine months later in the birth of a child. During the very early stages of this gestation period the development of the embryo is predisposed in certain directions by the possession of the sex chromosomes which are composed of two elements, one contributed by the mother and the other by the father. The mother can contribute only what is termed an X chromosome which predisposes towards the development of female structural, functional and temperamental characteristics, but the father can contribute either an X or a Y chromosome predisposing in the first instance to female, or in the second to male, structural and functional and temperamental characteristics. In short, the sex of the child to be born is initially governed by the chromosomal contribution of the father. All chromosomes are paired, and the Y is dominant over the X chromosome when combined with it. A child conceived will therefore be subject during development thereafter to a predisposition towards femaleness if receiving an X chromosome from the mother and an X chromosome from the father (XX), or towards maleness if receiving an X chromosome from the mother but a Y chromosome from the father (XY).


----------



## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> no it just goes on to prove that environmental stress COULD play a role and nobody can be sure who is right or wrong.
> 
> I am not talking about feminized seeds here and niether is skunk...we are talking about regular seeds. I dont where you saw me talking about femenized seeds.
> 
> ...



i'm talking about everything. didn't someone post something about how to get MORE females? something about lighting cycles? i'm using femminized seeds as an example because they claim to be strictly female. is that even possible?


----------



## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Here's some, in argument for predsiposition.:
> 
> This chapter is really in two sections. The first, which comprises the text itself, is a general statement of what is currently known with reasonable certainty about the origin and development, in the maturing individual, of the differences in both form and function between the two sexes. It is important to be aware of these facts because, as will be seen in due course, they have a direct bearing on the taking of Eve out of Adam. The subject also has a direct bearing on the Virgin Birth and the Incarnation. The other section which might have appeared as supporting footnotes were it not as extensive as the text itself (!), will be found in the form of expanded notes which have been relegated to the Reference Section. These scientific excursions are primarily intended for those who by background and training will wish to have a more detailed treatment of the evidence. These notes can be safely disregarded without any harm being done to the thread of the argument by those who do not desire to become involved in technical detail. The continuity of this study will not be seriously disturbed if they are simply ignored. The body of the text itself, however, has a very direct bearing on the creation of Eve out of Adam and is therefore quite essential to what follows later.When the female ovum is fertilized by the male, there is initiated an incredibly complex chain of events which culminate nine months later in the birth of a child. During the very early stages of this gestation period the development of the embryo is predisposed in certain directions by the possession of the sex chromosomes which are composed of two elements, one contributed by the mother and the other by the father. The mother can contribute only what is termed an X chromosome which predisposes towards the development of female structural, functional and temperamental characteristics, but the father can contribute either an X or a Y chromosome predisposing in the first instance to female, or in the second to male, structural and functional and temperamental characteristics. In short, the sex of the child to be born is initially governed by the chromosomal contribution of the father. All chromosomes are paired, and the Y is dominant over the X chromosome when combined with it. A child conceived will therefore be subject during development thereafter to a predisposition towards femaleness if receiving an X chromosome from the mother and an X chromosome from the father (XX), or towards maleness if receiving an X chromosome from the mother but a Y chromosome from the father (XY).



that's what i was trying to say.

the chromosomes are there from the start.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> i'm talking about everything. didn't someone post something about how to get MORE females? something about lighting cycles? i'm using femminized seeds as an example because they claim to be strictly female. is that even possible?


Since we have no idea what is actually happening inside the plant at a genetic level that statement could go towards both theories.

Someone who believes in environmental stress could say that the reason your getting males and females from fem seeds is because of the environmental stress they endured. 

Im sure true fem seeds could be developed but how can we trust that the seeds being marketed right now really are.

I still think this is a little off topic though.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Here's some, in argument for predsiposition.:
> 
> This chapter is really in two sections. The first, which comprises the text itself, is a general statement of what is currently known with reasonable certainty about the origin and development, in the maturing individual, of the differences in both form and function between the two sexes. It is important to be aware of these facts because, as will be seen in due course, they have a direct bearing on the taking of Eve out of Adam. The subject also has a direct bearing on the Virgin Birth and the Incarnation. The other section which might have appeared as supporting footnotes were it not as extensive as the text itself (!), will be found in the form of expanded notes which have been relegated to the Reference Section. These scientific excursions are primarily intended for those who by background and training will wish to have a more detailed treatment of the evidence. These notes can be safely disregarded without any harm being done to the thread of the argument by those who do not desire to become involved in technical detail. The continuity of this study will not be seriously disturbed if they are simply ignored. The body of the text itself, however, has a very direct bearing on the creation of Eve out of Adam and is therefore quite essential to what follows later.When the female ovum is fertilized by the male, there is initiated an incredibly complex chain of events which culminate nine months later in the birth of a child. During the very early stages of this gestation period the development of the embryo is predisposed in certain directions by the possession of the sex chromosomes which are composed of two elements, one contributed by the mother and the other by the father. The mother can contribute only what is termed an X chromosome which predisposes towards the development of female structural, functional and temperamental characteristics, but the father can contribute either an X or a Y chromosome predisposing in the first instance to female, or in the second to male, structural and functional and temperamental characteristics. In short, the sex of the child to be born is initially governed by the chromosomal contribution of the father. All chromosomes are paired, and the Y is dominant over the X chromosome when combined with it. A child conceived will therefore be subject during development thereafter to a predisposition towards femaleness if receiving an X chromosome from the mother and an X chromosome from the father (XX), or towards maleness if receiving an X chromosome from the mother but a Y chromosome from the father (XY).


Yes but you are talking about HUMANS...not plants.

We are 100% different from plants especially at a cellular and molecular level. 

I really dont see what human biology has to do with botany.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> Since we have no idea what is actually happening inside the plant at a genetic level that statement could go towards both theories.
> 
> Someone who believes in environmental stress could say that the reason your getting males and females from fem seeds is because of the environmental stress they endured.
> 
> ...





nowstopwhining said:


> Yes but you are talking about HUMANS...not plants.
> 
> We are 100% different from plants especially at a cellular and molecular level.
> 
> I really dont see what human biology has to do with botany.



are you just here to shoot down our opinions? maybe you could run your own thread.  are you out of pot again?


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> that's what i was trying to say.
> 
> the chromosomes are there from the start.




Yes, I've searched and searched for this evidence. Has he posted any yet? I found one site supporting his claim, yet another cut n paste marijuana site. Nothing tangible, just more of that mis-interpreted DP article.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> are you just here to shoot down our opinions? maybe you could run your own thread.  are you out of pot again?


you cant possibly shoot down an opinion because it is not fact. So no im not here to shoot down opinions.....was this thread created for debate or not?

I am serious though human biology has nothing to do with botany....

I dont care if a humans sex is predetermined that has nothing to do with marijuana.

I dont know how many times I have to say its been proven scientifically that stressors during growth effect a plants sex....obviously it wasnt a marijuana plant but I would take that over research done on humans.

the information he found on humans has zero relevance.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> you cant possibly shoot down an opinion because it is not fact. So no im not here to shoot down opinions.....was this thread created for debate or not?
> 
> I am serious though human biology has nothing to do with botany....
> 
> ...



humans have 2 chromosomes. as do plants X's and Y's. sex is sex. does "the birds and the bees" mean ANYTHING to you? 


Let me tell you 'bout the birds and the bees
and the flowers and the trees,
the moon up above, and the thing called love.

Let me tell you 'bout the stars in the sky,
the girl and the guy
and the way they could kiss
on a night like this.

When I look into your big brown eyes,
it's very plain to see
that it's time you learn about the facts in life
startin' from A to Z.
Let me tell you 'bout the birds...

(Solo)

When I look into your big brown eyes...

Well, let me tell you 'bout the birds and the bees...
 Let me tell you 'bout the birds and the bees,
the flowers and the trees,
the stars in the sky, a girl and a guy.
The birds and the bees,
the flowers and the trees,
the stars in the sky and a girl and a guy...


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

Show me this scientific evidence or get out of the thread...


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> humans have 2 chromosomes. as do plants X's and Y's. sex is sex. does "the birds and the bees" mean ANYTHING to you?
> 
> 
> Let me tell you 'bout the birds and the bees
> ...


ok so just because he is going to tell me about them doesnt mean they are that closely related.....hahahaha


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

this is interesting......Sex-determination system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


*Non-genetic sex-determination systems*

_Main article: Temperature-dependent sex determination_
Many other exotic sex-determination systems exist. In some species of reptiles, including alligators, some turtles, and the tuatara, sex is determined by the temperature at which the egg is incubated. Other species, such as some snails, practice sex change: adults start out male, then become female. In tropical clown fish, the dominant individual in a group becomes female while the other ones are male.
Some species have no sex-determination system. Earthworms and some snails are hermaphrodites; a few species of lizard, fish, and insect are all female and reproduce by parthenogenesis.
In some arthropods, sex is determined by infection, as when Bacteria of the genus _OpenDNS_ alter their sexuality; some species consist entirely of ZZ individuals, with sex determined by the presence of _Wolbachia_.
Other unusual systems [this section still being researched]:

Swordtail fish?
The OpenDNS midge species
OpenDNS


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

If you think that human genetics is relevant then consider this.

Lets say your genetic make-up predisposes you to have a weak immune system....is there nothing you can do to improve upon this or even worsen this?

Thats about as relevent as the info skunk found but actually goes to support my theory.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> this is interesting......Sex-determination system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> *Non-genetic sex-determination systems*
> ...


thats very interesting, I actually think someone said this earlier but skunk blew him off.

Take the time to read this and show it to skunk as well

It is very relevent.....

Plant sex determination and sex chromosomes

Heres a quote " A minority of plant species are 'sexually polymorphic', including dioecious species, with separate males and females"


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> this is interesting......Sex-determination system - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> 
> *Non-genetic sex-determination systems*
> ...




Yes, i've also been reading about some sex reversal studies done on hemp. they give you the first page, then you got to pay for the rest. I'll cut n paste it here.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

Just have to make do with the link. It's copyrighted.

http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9122(193106)18:6<424:TFCOSR>2.0.CO;2-7&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Notice how in the article they had the most success with staminate plants.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> thats very interesting, I actually think someone said this earlier but skunk blew him off.
> 
> Take the time to read this and show it to skunk as well
> 
> ...




here's another, from the same article.....

"....Sex inheritance and sex chromosomes in plants are strikingly similar to those in animals........"


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

Someone copy this so skunk can see it please:

Plant sex determination and sex chromosomes

"A minority of plant species are 'sexually polymorphic', including dioecious species with separate males and females"


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> Someone copy this so skunk can see it please:
> 
> Plant sex determination and sex chromosomes
> 
> &quot;A minority of plant species are 'sexually polymorphic', including dioecious species with separate males and females&quot;


 

polymorphic only relates to phenotypes. Which is why we get different phenotypes. Please, try harder. That article says nothing. You'd be better of quoting from my link.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Just have to make do with the link. It's copyrighted.
> 
> http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0002-9122(193106)18:6<424:TFCOSR>2.0.CO;2-7&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage
> 
> Notice how in the article they had the most success with staminate plants.


now you got me reading it....you gonna pay the 10 dollars and send it to me?


this is all really starting to confuse me. i have no idea what to think anymore.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> here's another, from the same article.....
> 
> "....Sex inheritance and sex chromosomes in plants are strikingly similar to those in animals........"


I hope you realize Fdd that I am not trying to prove anything as FACT. I am just giving information and debating.

I realize you guys are doing the same and im not trying to fight I really dont see why he has such a prpoblem with this.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> polymorphic only relates to phenotypes. Which is why we get different phenotypes. Please, try harder. That article says nothing. You'd be better of quoting from my link.



Theres no way you read that whole article that quickly...do it


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> I hope you realize Fdd that I am not trying to prove anything as FACT. I am just giving information and debating.
> 
> I realize you guys are doing the same and im not trying to fight I really dont see why he has such a prpoblem with this.



this wasn't a debate until you stepped in. it was a discussion.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 28, 2007)

fuck this. another thread ruined by a small penis. i'm outta here. fuck this whiny BS. 

i'll chat with skunk on yahoo.


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> this wasn't a debate until you stepped in. it was a discussion.


discussion debate whatever....skunk is the one that got personal not me.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> now you got me reading it....you gonna pay the 10 dollars and send it to me?
> 
> 
> this is all really starting to confuse me. i have no idea what to think anymore.




I don't feel i have the need. This was done on males and females, but males were more easily turned... on hemp. Plus the plants had to be severely pruned. And the article is from around 1930's. I can find nothing up to date to substantiate this.

I've looked in a lot of places, and this was all i could find. Is it true? A lot of things have been published in the past that aren't true. He also did it while they were in flower. More males turned to females than females to males. If anything his study shows that the same environment affects the plants in the same way. So both plants would reverse sex, although if they did then you would end up with more fem's than males. Not the other way round.


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 28, 2007)

Not confused at all skunk..just putting opinions and going off whats been said, must you always be so judgemental...your right FDD there are too many X's and Y's to even keep track at this point...someone should do an organized report instead of fishing for this fact and that fact and then finding there not facts and so on...to me it seems(opinion here for those that take random things outta txt)the only thing that knows what marijuana is really doing other than whats been scentifically proven and whats known as common knowledge is the plant...if only there were a way....daydream...ne who either way i think itd be great to get to the bottom of this stuff...unfortunently it prolly wont happen til it becomes leagl everywhere and they actually start doing real tests


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## nowstopwhining (Nov 28, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> Not confused at all skunk..just putting opinions and going off whats been said, must you always be so judgemental...your right FDD there are too many X's and Y's to even keep track at this point...someone should do an organized report instead of fishing for this fact and that fact and then finding there not facts and so on...to me it seems(opinion here for those that take random things outta txt)the only thing that knows what marijuana is really doing other than whats been scentifically proven and whats known as common knowledge is the plant...if only there were a way....daydream...ne who either way i think itd be great to get to the bottom of this stuff...unfortunently it prolly wont happen til it becomes leagl everywhere and they actually start doing real tests


I agree with every word you just said 100% and have even said some of this earlier in the thread.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> Not confused at all skunk..just putting opinions and going off whats been said, must you always be so judgemental...your right FDD there are too many X's and Y's to even keep track at this point...someone should do an organized report instead of fishing for this fact and that fact and then finding there not facts and so on...<U>to me it seems(opinion here for those that take random things outta txt)the only thing that knows what marijuana is really doing other than whats been scentifically proven and whats known as common knowledge is the plant...if only there were a way....daydream...ne who either way i think itd be great to get to the bottom of this stuff...unfortunently it prolly wont happen til it becomes leagl everywhere and they actually start doing real tests




If this is how you feel, then stay out of the thread. You're not here to forward this discussion. You're here to stall it. I note, nothing I have said has been reasonably objected to. You offer none of this scientific proof... show the proof, or go away. Oh, and you were confused.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 28, 2007)

nowstopwhining said:


> I agree with every word you just said 100% and have even said some of this earlier in the thread.




And you are a complete waste of space. You come into my thread withou a clue what you want to say... only that you want to ruin the thread, and try to make me look foolish. All you've done is ruin this thread, and I've had enough.


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## jackinthebox (Nov 28, 2007)

Well its pretty obvious that people will believe anything they are told, so how about we all just start our own list of things?

Watering your plants while naked increases chances of females
Drinking a beer before mixing nutrients will increase chances of males
Watching tv at 1:30pm will increase chances of female unless its saved by the bell
Planting the seed with your mouth it will increase ur chances of having a female
Eating some of the soil that the plant is in, will increase chances of males
Riding a monogose bike will give you a hermie


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## mr j2 (Nov 28, 2007)

i dont know if anybody asked this yet but.. what effect (if any) does using reverse (by dutchmaster) and a penetrator have on the number of males if applied right before flowering? or what would they cause a male plant to do? Ive heard of people succesfully using these to stop hermies with feminized seeds but i was just curious as to how they would effect regular seeds. Any ideas? 
Heres a link to the product: Reverse by DutchMaster - 1 liter | Plant Nutrient Enhancers - General


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## Harkin (Nov 28, 2007)

What! that stuff can't be for real surely. I know I wouldn't pay a penny


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## SmokerE (Nov 28, 2007)

I'm of the belief in predisposition of sex. I don't know if it was said, my concern would be the environment of the parents during seed production and pollination. Since marijuana has the ability to change it's sex (modify, herm) due to environmental changes, why wouldn't the environmental factors during pollination have some sort of effect?


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## SmokerE (Nov 28, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> And you are a complete waste of space. You come into my thread withou a clue what you want to say... only that you want to ruin the thread, and try to make me look foolish. All you've done is ruin this thread, and I've had enough.


Don't worry, he'll be busy taking gay pics of himself soon. Should keep him busy.


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## rkm (Nov 28, 2007)

I kinda have the opinion of both theories, little pieces of each to make a whole.

I dont know, but try looking for research universities have done on this topic, even contact them if you have too. Might take a look at University of Kentucky, they are among the best in the nation for agriculture schools. And you would not believe the land they own. Plus, Ky is one of the highest producing MJ states in the nation. I am pretty sure there has been some research done on this, maybe there has been a pot smoking agriculture student probably wondered this along the way sometime.


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## mockingbird131313 (Nov 28, 2007)

More information is understood about animal species than about plant species. And it is generally assumed to be reasonable that there can be some similarity between plants and animals at some level.

So this predisposition of sex is a hot topic among zoologists and breeders. Here is what they found.

Some species, like alligators, can have more or less of a sex by altering incubation temptiture. Birds, in some cases, seem to follow the same pattern. However, some species seem not affected by outside influences. 

I received that information from a well known bird veterinarian. 

Since pollen has no subtle differences in appearance (i.e. male pollen or female pollen) I would speculate that environment has at least some part in determining the sex of the offspring. If you go back to the example of alligators, regardless of the environmental changes, you never get completely male or completely female, offspring from a clutch of eggs.

So, I believe, "feminized" is a generality, not an absolute.


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

I think your funny skunk..what progress did this thread make anyway?? What was found out?? What was proven?? You can discuss hypotheticals all day for the sake of discussion but when you want to actually prove something and put it on paper we should be in our grow rooms right now instead of just wondering the possibilities...I noted that last little you were confused part, and I also think its funny bc really you fuel the fire you hate so much you make someone want to go after you...I've been polite, posting in an open thread thats all...I like the possibilities the RESEARCH for this subject can do and all other subjects you've brought up such as the trichome and root mass to plant mass and so on...love new info as long as its been proven


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokerE said:


> I'm of the belief in predisposition of sex. I don't know if it was said, my concern would be the environment of the parents during seed production and pollination. Since marijuana has the ability to change it's sex (modify, herm) due to environmental changes, why wouldn't the environmental factors during pollination have some sort of effect?




This is right where I'm at smoker'. The only way environment (to my mind) could play a part in the sex of a seed, is in the parents. They're the ones that know the environment.


----------



## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> I think your funny skunk..what progress did this thread make anyway?? What was found out?? What was proven?? You can discuss hypotheticals all day for the sake of discussion but when you want to actually prove something and put it on paper we should be in our grow rooms right now instead of just wondering the possibilities...I noted that last little you were confused part, and I also think its funny bc really you fuel the fire you hate so much you make someone want to go after you...I've been polite, posting in an open thread thats all...I like the possibilities the RESEARCH for this subject can do and all other subjects you've brought up such as the trichome and root mass to plant mass and so on...love new info as long as its been proven




Still nothing to add? This thread is a search for the truth using reasoning and logic. Now, I realise that you might find this a little difficult to understand, but if you take a look at the header of this forum... it says advanced. Now remember back to your school days, were you ever advanced? We all know the answer to that, don't we.

I think some new rules need to be made for this section, at least in terms of being able to post in it. Either add to the discussion, or go away... silly, little man.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

mockingbird131313 said:


> More information is understood about animal species than about plant species. And it is generally assumed to be reasonable that there can be some similarity between plants and animals at some level.
> 
> So this predisposition of sex is a hot topic among zoologists and breeders. Here is what they found.
> 
> ...




Yes, but the changes all happen in the egg, not when the animal is young, or vegetating. If it happens outside the seed, or when the animal is young then a complete sex reversal would be needed, obviously.

The only evidence I've found so far that cannabis can be sex reversed during veg', is that misinterpreted DP article. Which, quite unbelievably, is lauded as scientific proof. Their test was on feminised seed (i know, because i read the whole thing), they were trying to reduce male populations on feminised seed using environmental factors. I understood it perfectly. Yet this information is cut n pasted, wrongly, across websites.

I want to se actual proof that sex reversal can happen under 24/0. It just isn't logical that a plant would complete a full sex reversal. More likely, it would just hermie.


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## SmokerE (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> This is right where I'm at smoker'. The only way environment (to my mind) could play a part in the sex of a seed, is in the parents. They're the ones that know the environment.


 
Where is the damn Nobel Piece Prize??


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## fdd2blk (Nov 29, 2007)

why is it females changing to males? why not the other way around? just wondering. seems like males NEVER turn into females. this could be important.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

fdd2blk said:


> why is it females changing to males? why not the other way around? just wondering. seems like males NEVER turn into females. this could be important.




It is very important and sits in perfectly with a growers desire to get more females, this is why this has pread so far. Doesn't matter what logic you use, somebody will bring up the DP thing... as though it's an end to the matter.


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## jackinthebox (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> This is right where I'm at smoker'. The only way environment (to my mind) could play a part in the sex of a seed, is in the parents. They're the ones that know the environment.


Wow, good thinking guys. Thats makes a lot of sense.

Just a side question. Do bagseed plants actually have a higher rate of males? Out of the 3 bagseed plants I have grown, all 3 were males, and I have heard lots of other comments, but is it actually a fact?


Smokeumpipe.... just stop being a jerk man, we are just trying to learn through the knowledge of each other <3


Much love *growers <3*


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

Riiiigghhhht reasoning and logic...yet everybodys reasoning and logic are different so what is it exactly your going to discover out of the blue just because someone spoke there mind?? Nothing??? oh okay thats what i thought...matterfact i was in mostly all advanced classes so we do no the answer to that, so instead of dissing people and attacking people, and typing your lil heart out about BS that you really dont know the answers to, go in and do some experiments and tests and post your findings...bc im not saying the ideas in this thread arent true but even the truth is BS until widely excepted as the truth..and some new rules do need to be made 1. rename it skunks forum for posting shit he'll never prove 2. block everyone so he can argue with himself and there you go you should be having tons of fun...like a blonde flipping over the paper that says "turn over" on both sides...and its sad bc id gladly add to the discussion if i didnt have 2 syphon through all the judgemental and rude comments you have..i remember i was on this site when you first came on here and you were about posting your pics and your grows and asking questions and helping people but i guess since you got all that rep and 7000+ posts youve decided to stuff your crotch a lil..we know what your compensating for , dont we??....silly,silly little thing..well im going back to the grow room where real things are found out and proven have fun discussing something you'll never know...

And Jack I'm not being a jerk one bit not even angry when I post...Im supposedly being the jerk but I was attacked first i tried adding to the discussion except skunk thinks he needs to try and degrade anyone who opposes his ideas..Im not gunna roll over bc the big lion face said something mean...stop coming at me and id stop responding to it...but as we all know skunk cant pass up opportunities to raise his self esteem


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

oh and just to add to the discussion, what if you take special care of the parent plants during the time you breed the seeds..im thinking if you stress the parent plants in some awful way during seed production this could turn all the seeds male or not all of them but your M/F ratio could be worse..and visa versa if you took extra care of your parent plants and show that theres a good environment maybe this will allow more female seed production...this is of course if the seed is already predetermined to be a certain sex..and i know this is going along with the environment factors others were talking about earlier but i think itd b a good test to try for instance get 2 female plants pregnant, baby the shit outta one and neglect the other and then plant the seeds you get off of them and see what the ratios are...if it makes no diff. then we know parent environment doesnt have much pull


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## donnieosmond (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> This is a very strong subject at the moment... and also one I am yet to recieve any satisfactory answers for. Are seeds pre-disposed to be one sex or the other? To my mind, seed pre-disposition means that the seed will have one stronger chromosome than the other. In other words, cannabis will have both chromosomes, but either the male or female chromosome will be dominant, with the other dormant (I believe this is in degrees)
> 
> If we don't agree that seeds are pre-disposed, then what does this leave?
> This leaves a-sexuality, and hermaphroditism. Hermaphroditism is when both chromosomes are of equal dominance in the plant. It is also presently believed that the hermaphrodite 'gene' is stronger than either just male or female on it's own (this info' came from a breeder, i haven't checked it out). So, for me, this rules out hermaphroditism as a possibility.
> ...


If I could just throw in my two cents here.. I'd say yes and no, as far as seeds being pre-disposed to a certain sex. But not in the way you think.

Some plants are asexual and don't reproduce through sexual reproduction. All of their offspring are in reality clones of the original (which you all know).

Other plants and all flowering ones have both sex organs present in the same plant (but like humans some flowers can be only male and others can be female). They can't reproduce with themselves though only with other plants of the same or very similar species. This is where the concept of pollination comes into play.

Sex and plants is a very complex issue and there are 11 different types of sexual reproduction methods used in plants. Some of these methods require that the plant has both sexual organs, like flowers, others are unisexual, and others have no sexual organs; most of them have 

According to Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plant_sexua...
"Specific terms are used to describe the sexual expression of individual plants within a population.

- Androecious - plants producing male flowers only, produce pollen but no seeds, the male plants of a Dioecious species. 
- Dioecious - having unisexual reproductive units with male and female plants. (flowers, conifer cones, or functionally equivalent structures) occurring on different individuals; from Greek for "two households". Individual plants are not called dioecious: they are either gynoecious or androecious. 
- Gynoecious - plants producing female flowers only, produces seeds but no pollen, the female of a Dioecious species. In some plant species or populations all individuals are gynoecious with non sexual reproduction used to produce the next generation. 
- Hermaphrodite - A plant that has only bisexual reproductive units (flowers, conifer cones, or functionally equivalent structures). In angiosperm terminology a synonym is monoclinous from the Greek "one bed". 
- Monoecious - having unisexual reproductive units (flowers, conifer cones, or functionally equivalent structures) of both sexes appearing on the same plant; from Greek for "one household". Individuals bearing flowers of both sexes at the same time are called simultaneously or synchronously monoecious. Individuals that bear only flowers of a single sex at one time are called consecutively monoecious; protoandrous describes individuals that function first as males and then change to females; protogynous describes individuals that function first as females and then change to males.
- Subdioecious, a tendency in some dioecious species to produce monoecious plants. The population produces normally male or female plants but some are hermaphroditic, with female plants producing some male or hermaphroditic flowers or vise versa. The condition is thought to represent a transition between hermaphroditism and dioecy. 
- Gynomonoecious - has both hermaphrodite and female structures. 
- Andromonoecious - has both hermaphrodite and male structures. 
- Subandroecious - plant has mostly male flowers, with a few female or hermaphrodite flowers. 
- Subgynoecious - plant has mostly female flowers, with a few male or hermaphrodite flowers. 
- Trimonoecious (polygamous) - male, female, and hermaphrodite structures all appear on the same plant. 
- Diclinous ("two beds"), an angiosperm term, includes all species with unisexual flowers, although particularly those with only unisexual flowers, i.e. the monoecious and dioecious species."

There's not really much of a debate on the issue that some plants may have more males than females, since most plants are rooted they don't handle sex like animals do.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> Riiiigghhhht reasoning and logic...yet everybodys reasoning and logic are different so what is it exactly your going to discover out of the blue just because someone spoke there mind?? Nothing???oh okay thats what i thought...
> 
> _And you say I talk to myself?_
> 
> ...


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> oh and just to add to the discussion, what if you take special care of the parent plants during the time you breed the seeds..im thinking if you stress the parent plants in some awful way during seed production this could turn all the seeds male or not all of them but your M/F ratio could be worse..and visa versa if you took extra care of your parent plants and show that theres a good environment maybe this will allow more female seed production...this is of course if the seed is already predetermined to be a certain sex..and i know this is going along with the environment factors others were talking about earlier but i think itd b a good test to try for instance get 2 female plants pregnant, baby the shit outta one and neglect the other and then plant the seeds you get off of them and see what the ratios are...if it makes no diff. then we know parent environment doesnt have much pull


About time thankyou, although everything you've just said was said by smokerE in one sentence. Environment does play a part in the sex of a seed... but once it's born then it's sex is predisposed, and environmental factors would not be able to make the plant do a full sex reversal, merely hermie. You'd also need to do thousands of tests... 50/50 always evens out in the end, but (again) where is the end?


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

donnieosmond said:


> If I could just throw in my two cents here.. I'd say yes and no, as far as seeds being pre-disposed to a certain sex. But not in the way you think.
> 
> Some plants are asexual and don't reproduce through sexual reproduction. All of their offspring are in reality clones of the original (which you all know).
> 
> ...


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

What couldnt think of something you proved to defend that first comment?? 

and No sorry your mistaken the short bus you rode is actually the special school...your mom lied...

and you cant help being the way you are...I told you you couldnt pass up the self esteem boost...its okay..were you beaten as a child??

and you bring up proof, proof, proof but yet you havent brought any proof to what your trying to find out just "logic and reasoning"...

no you help the few who "fear" you..if the person shows opinion opposite of yours there attacked...and ill find out more in my grow room than you will "discussing"...HA!!I wouldnt even waste the brush or paint on something so useless...and my abilities exceed expectations so faith really has nothing to do with it

Well if im being a jerk then i guess were in the same boat then..and was it a long post of nothing??? then you should feel pretty dumb for replying


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

Yawn... and yet more boring twaddle.
:chinstroke:


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

I noted that what I brought up was previously touched on....and I was only talking about the parents and the making of the seed not the actual planting of the seed and growing it..Im wondering if optimal conditions for the parent plants would predispose more females...than say if you neglected the parent plants would this make more male predisposed seeds...and yes this would take a long time to prove and several tests but what if you did the pollinate 1 branch teqchnique so the seed selection is smaller and you can run more tests at once...or would it have to be a complete pollination to get the best answers??


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> I noted that what I brought up was previously touched on....and I was only talking about the parents and the making of the seed not the actual planting of the seed and growing it..Im wondering if optimal conditions for the parent plants would predispose more females...than say if you neglected the parent plants would this make more male predisposed seeds...and yes this would take a long time to prove and several tests but what if you did the pollinate 1 branch teqchnique so the seed selection is smaller and you can run more tests at once...or would it have to be a complete pollination to get the best answers??


Yes... I believe it would. The environment could be used to predispose seeds to be one sex or the other. I also have an idea of how this could be done, and indeed how the plant itself achieves this.

Would you like me to tell you?


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

If you would like not just for me but the whole board...bc im thinking of running a few tests next grow just to see if a neglected prego female will have more males than a healthy well taken care of prego female...bc for all i know it could turn out that the taken care of female still produces a 50/50 while maybe the neglected female makes a slightly higher male percentage or something of that sort


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> If you would like not just for me but the whole board...bc im thinking of running a few tests next grow just to see if a neglected prego female will have more males than a healthy well taken care of prego female...bc for all i know it could turn out that the taken care of female still produces a 50/50 while maybe the neglected female makes a slightly higher male percentage or something of that sort


 
why would I not do it just for you? Why so pessimistic? Optimism should be the order of the day...

I'll give you a clue... plants can see.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Any more questions?




when considering bag seed:

i would assume a lot of bag seed comes from females that produce 1 or 2 male flowers. i see this indoors a lot. these are the one or two seeds found in an ounce of weed. since there are only one or two we can assume that there was no male present. if this were the case wouldn't most bagseed be feminized. if femminized seeds come from female pollen this should hold true.


so my question is: Is bagseed more predispositioned to be female?


for the record; 80% of my seed grows are from bagseed. i would say i have had about 75% females over the last 4 years.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

Sounds likely to me.


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## fdd2blk (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Sounds likely to me.



that's it? that's the answer from "the all knowing lion". wow, so simple.


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

No im very optimistic that something can be found out that will help all growers get better female ratios, thats why i stated it that way..bc im sure im not the only one wanting to know this info on how to get rid of them pesky males...so plants can see?? so does that mean if i crowd a bunch of pollinated mothers this would affect the predisposition or say if i have seedless females crowded around one pollinated female would that change the predisposition ratios??...i might be thinking to restricted here as im only thinking of the parent plants and how you can affect them to make a better F/M ratio...
PS FDD i laughed my head off at that yellow button thing


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

Here's another... what if a female plant is pollinated by more than one male? Would this maybe help send the signal that there's too many males in the environment? 

As most breeders tend to control their plants breeding habits, this could lead the plant to believe more males are needed. hence the rise in males in various seedbanks seeds.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> No im very optimistic that something can be found out that will help all growers get better female ratios, thats why i stated it that way..bc im sure im not the only one wanting to know this info on how to get rid of them pesky males...so plants can see?? so does that mean if i crowd a bunch of pollinated mothers this would affect the predisposition or say if i have seedless females crowded around one pollinated female would that change the predisposition ratios??...i might be thinking to restricted here as im only thinking of the parent plants and how you can affect them to make a better F/M ratio...
> PS FDD i laughed my head off at that yellow button thing


You need a specific type of light to make them see. Two forms of light are reflected off cannabis. One is green, but this isn't the one they use to see with. They use infra red. They use this reflected part of the spectrum to guage how much competition they have for light, water etc. Maybe, the males and females give off a signature that they each recognise...


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

I would think if i pollinated 1 female plant with say 3 or 4 different males maybe even from different strains all together it would do as you said and alert the mother to the various males thus making it react and maybe produce more female seeds to even out the masses..but i could see how there might be a downfall to it..bc the mother would try to even out the ratios but what really happend is you tricked it into producing more females so next grow around it might see all the females and want to even it out the other way and youd get a bunch of males...so would you only keep every other breeding in stock or would you try to trick it over and over??


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> You need a specific type of light to make them see. Two forms of light are reflected off cannabis. One is green, but this isn't the one they use to see with. They use infra red. They use this reflected part of the spectrum to guage how much competition they have for light, water etc. Maybe, the males and females give off a signature that they each recognise...


you mean a specific type other than say a MH or HPS?? so what if the signature is just a specific wave length that each plant gender gives off..iff you utilized that wave length and put it in the groww room in abundace would this trick all your plants into thinking theres alot of males and it needs to produce more females


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> I would think if i pollinated 1 female plant with say 3 or 4 different males maybe even from different strains all together it would do as you said and alert the mother to the various males thus making it react and maybe produce more female seeds to even out the masses..but i could see how there might be a downfall to it..bc the mother would try to even out the ratios but what really happend is you tricked it into producing more females so next grow around it might see all the females and want to even it out the other way and youd get a bunch of males...so would you only keep every other breeding in stock or would you try to trick it over and over??


This information should sit more in the mind of a breeder. If they send the mostly fem seeds out. You get a nice bunch of fem's to pick a mom from... and clone. Get bored, buy a new pack of seeds safe in the knowledge that the chances are you will get a good fem ratio.


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

Know why a man's bell end is hook shaped on one side?

To scrape out another man's sperm.

How does cannabis react? I mean, even if it's by multiple males of the same strain? Does she reject dna, or doesn't it matter?


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## fdd2blk (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Know why a man's bell end is hook shaped on one side?
> 
> To scrape out another man's sperm.
> 
> How does cannabis react? I mean, even if it's by multiple males of the same strain? Does she reject dna, or doesn't it matter?


the info we retain from sex ed.....hahahahah


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

SmokeUmPipe said:


> you mean a specific type other than say a MH or HPS?? so what if the signature is just a specific wave length that each plant gender gives off..iff you utilized that wave length and put it in the groww room in abundace would this trick all your plants into thinking theres alot of males and it needs to produce more females


Possible, I feel... who knows?This is my point, i search and search the web looking for answers to my questions. They aren't there, so it's up to all of us to find the truth. To do any type of test, you must have sound reasoning behind it.


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## Harkin (Nov 29, 2007)

skunkushybrid said:


> Know why a man's bell end is hook shaped on one side?
> 
> To scrape out another man's sperm.


Why is it that my mind always has to picture things


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

"How does cannabis react?"

I think this is the question of the day


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## SmokeUmPipe (Nov 29, 2007)

absolutly skunk i believe processing thoughts an ideas and putting forth to find new things is great but eventually logic and reasoning will lead to a dead end and experiments will ahve to be done to further discussion


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## skunkushybrid (Nov 29, 2007)

Yes... hopefully they will lead to that dead end. Things need to be expounded upon for things to move forward, or to finally find that 'dead end'. The experiment first needs to be figured out.<BR><BR>

I will experiment, I just need to find the dead ends.


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## kochab (Jan 1, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> when considering bag seed:
> 
> i would assume a lot of bag seed comes from females that produce 1 or 2 male flowers. i see this indoors a lot. these are the one or two seeds found in an ounce of weed. since there are only one or two we can assume that there was no male present. if this were the case wouldn't most bagseed be feminized. if femminized seeds come from female pollen this should hold true.
> 
> ...


i think you just hit the nail right on the head here. unless its schwag.lol


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## fdd2blk (Jan 1, 2008)

kochab said:


> i think you just hit the nail right on the head here. unless its schwag.lol



most of what i grow is schwag.


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## Kestas (Jan 1, 2008)

Im in the middle of my first grow, 8 plants 24/0. They were heat stressed at the begining, nute burned, and mag def. before i got everything worked out. I ended up with 1 male, 2 hermi, and 5 female. If If 24/0 and stress causes males I can't believe I got 1 female much less 5.


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## kindprincess (Jan 1, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> i've never physically seen it happen. i've seen "true" hermies. male on one side female on the other. i've seen 1 or 2 single male flowers on a finishing female. but i have NEVER seen a plant "reverse" sex. what exactly is this?


seeds are predisposed. i think there may be some things that will cause a shift one way or another, but it is speculation in my eyes still.

if you put two plants (not sexed) in the same pot (from seed, started separate...) and use the seed chart.....

you'll be amazed to find a male and a female. i'd say i guarantee this to happen, but i'm not to that point yet. so far, everytime i've tried this i've gotten a male and a female, as if they know they're together and have to make babies for the next season. so far i've done this seven times and every time, i get a male and a female. if i pull the male, he reverses to full female in two weeks or less.

i've only had males reverse, and stop producing pods and start popping pistils everywhere.

as a matter of fact, i let the mtf male self, to see if i could produce "masculinized seeds". he reversed after week five of flower. (oh, i've only seen reversal in flower; i'd think it would be impossible to tell in veg )

 i guess we'll see in a few months


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## nowstopwhining (Jan 2, 2008)

kindprincess said:


> seeds are predisposed. i think there may be some things that will cause a shift one way or another, but it is speculation in my eyes still.
> 
> if you put two plants (not sexed) in the same pot (from seed, started separate...) and use the seed chart.....
> 
> ...


My first grow I placed 2 plants in every container. There were 4 containers and each had 2 plants in them. 2 of those containers had 2 females, 1 container had 1 male one female, and the last had 2 males.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 2, 2008)

kindprincess said:


> if you put two plants (not sexed) in the same pot (from seed, started separate...) and use the seed chart.....
> 
> you'll be amazed to find a male and a female. i'd say i guarantee this to happen, but i'm not to that point yet. so far, everytime i've tried this i've gotten a male and a female, as if they know they're together and have to make babies for the next season. so far i've done this seven times and every time, i get a male and a female.


This is very interesting, and something (although a little off subject) is something I have been putting a bit of thought into. This has been often remarked upon not just by cannabis growers but by gardeners in general. Can plants see? 

I typed that into google a few months ago and got the response that yes they can, and they do this by using far red, not infra red as i first assumed, but far red light. Males will usually grow taller.

Although it is also said that they use the light to judge the competition they have for light, water, and resources. So if this statement is complete then it makes no sense that they would be able to distinguish one life-form from another, so a female wouldn't be able to tell that the taller, skinnier plant next to it was a male cannabis plant. Yet it wouldn't need to... In nature cannabis is territorial, just like everything else. Cannabis will take over an area and keep spreading untill other wild plant-life stop it. So the chances are that the taller plant next to the female will be a male.

I'm not sure though if this can be done with just two seeds where one will always turn out one way or the other. I feel the reason this works for you KP is because they are your seeds, and you have a very good 50/50 average. I honestly feel that the plants past environment is passed on to every seed generation. This will include, i believe, the past male/fem ratio as far as any particular female is aware.

This is a reason I am getting into breeding myself now. I think it will be fun to play around with genetics... maybe. Also I'll have my own seed.


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## heavenlysmoke (Jan 2, 2008)

this thread was a total waste of time coz we still dont know one way or the other!
skunk seems to think hes right about everything and if anyone has a difference of opinion he attacks um and tries to prove there wrong or hes right eventhough he cant prove it!hes obviously a control freak who probably beats his girl if she dont do as shes told.all i know is im growing 10 plants and atleast 4 better be female,,,,,,,


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 2, 2008)

......yawn..........

Anyone got a fly-swatter?


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## kindprincess (Jan 2, 2008)

i think plants do communicate with each other. and i think this is why my two plants per pot (i use a 3g for this project, and roots begin to battle for dominance almost immediately) works out the way it does. and i've heard this with many other plants as well 

i might get a chance to play with this one in a few months, do 50 or so pairs, just to see what happens 

hope you had a good one skunky


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## nongreenthumb (Jan 2, 2008)

heavenlysmoke said:


> this thread was a total waste of time coz we still dont know one way or the other!
> skunk seems to think hes right about everything and if anyone has a difference of opinion he attacks um and tries to prove there wrong or hes right eventhough he cant prove it!hes obviously a control freak who probably beats his girl if she dont do as shes told.all i know is im growing 10 plants and atleast 4 better be female,,,,,,,


Thats pretty offensive talk, there was serious discussion going on here.

Personal attacks are not tolerated.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 2, 2008)

kindprincess said:


> i think plants do communicate with each other. and i think this is why my two plants per pot (i use a 3g for this project, and roots begin to battle for dominance almost immediately) works out the way it does. and i've heard this with many other plants as well
> 
> i might get a chance to play with this one in a few months, do 50 or so pairs, just to see what happens
> 
> hope you had a good one skunky


Yes, i had a very good one and am suffering the hangover/comedown today. i just couldn't bear to go through it yesterday, so I did the day on coke. Right now the only thing keeping me alive is a plentiful supply of weed, honey oil and coffee.

Ah, i misunderstood your last post. i didn't realise they were both in the same pot. Maybe the roots can recognise each other and it is only when they run out of room that they strangle the life out of each other. The battle for dominance sounds very interesting, in fact I've witnessed it for myself, where one plant was suffocated at the mid-flower point. Stopped growing completely about a week before, maybe 2... and just browned off and died. the plant next to it had taken it's root space. these were all clones too. Maybe it is a case of the female being more deadlier than the male.

Which root system have you observed as being the most dominant?


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## kindprincess (Jan 2, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes, i had a very good one and am suffering the hangover/comedown today. i just couldn't bear to go through it yesterday, so I did the day on coke. Right now the only thing keeping me alive is a plentiful supply of weed, honey oil and coffee.
> 
> Ah, i misunderstood your last post. i didn't realise they were both in the same pot. Maybe the roots can recognise each other and it is only when they run out of room that they strangle the life out of each other. The battle for dominance sounds very interesting, in fact I've witnessed it for myself, where one plant was suffocated at the mid-flower point. Stopped growing completely about a week before, maybe 2... and just browned off and died. the plant next to it had taken it's root space. these were all clones too. Maybe it is a case of the female being more deadlier than the male.
> 
> Which root system have you observed as being the most dominant?


i can't really say; i've always separated the males after they show. i started doing this when an old og'er told me about it. i had two plants of an extinct strain i wanted to preserve, and i was told this is how to ensure a male and female. 

it worked 

but, after pulling the male out and transplanting him to his own container, he reversed. and i mean full reversal, no more balls. all new growth was female.

this is what got me started thinking of conditional sex. i've since done this over half a dozen times, with the exact same results. everytime i yank the male, he reverts to female.....

i'll do some thinking as to how i can do a case study on this. i'm going to be pressed for room, so we'll just have to see..

take care of that hangover! 

kp


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## Lamafia ck (Jan 2, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> most of what i grow is schwag.


damn theres alot of transportation and packaging to your budd then cause damn to turn does nice plants to swag is almost impossible lol j/k

the cause of swag is all the trans. and heat that kills most of thc 

stressing the plant wen is a seedling can cause to turn a hermie but idk about female to male
i believe each seeds turns male or female on germination process and female seeds are just a high % female chance but it can also turn to be a male THATS WAT I THINK


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 2, 2008)

Thanks KP, I hope you had a great new year too. Your post is very interesting and it prompted me to do a search on root communication. Here's something a little off, but mostly on subject:

*[SIZE=+1]Plants Can Recognize and Prefer Their Kin [/SIZE]*
*HAMILTON, Ontario, Canada*, June 13, 2007 (ENS)  The apparently passive garden plant is not as easy-going as people assume, at least not with strangers. Researchers at McMaster University have found that plants become competitive when forced to share a pot with strangers of the same species, but they are more friendly when potted with their siblings. 
"The ability to recognize and favor kin is common in animals, but this is the first time it has been shown in plants," said Dr. Susan Dudley, associate professor of biology at McMaster University in Hamilton. 
"When plants share their pots, they get competitive and start growing more roots, which allows them to grab water and mineral nutrients before their neighbors get them," Dudley explains. 





*Biologist Susan Dudley is the first to discover that plants recognize their kin. (Photo courtesy McMaster University)*

"It appears, though, that they only do this when sharing a pot with unrelated plants; when they share a pot with family they dont increase their root growth," the biologist says. 

Because differences between groups of strangers and groups of siblings only occurred when they shared a pot, the root interactions may provide a cue for kin recognition. 
Though they lack cognition and memory, Dudley says the study shows plants are capable of complex social behaviors such as altruism towards relatives. 
Like humans, says Dudley, the most interesting plant behaviors occur beneath the surface. 
Dudley and her student, Amanda File, observed the behavior in sea rocket, _Cakile edentula_, a member of the mustard family native to beaches throughout North America, including the Great Lakes, where McMaster is located near Lake Ontario. 





*The American sea rocket grows on sandy beaches above the high tide line. (Photo by Virginia Kline courtesy U. Wisconsin-Madison)*

The two biologists grew batches of sea rocket in pots of four, either with specimens from the same maternal family or from several different families. 

Those growing with strangers had a greater mass of roots after two months of growing than those sharing pots with siblings. 
Gardeners might want to use this discovery to change their plant arrangements, placing siblings close to one another. 
"Gardeners have known for a long time that some pairs of species get along better than others, and scientists are starting to catch up with why that happens," says Dudley. "What Ive found is that plants from the same mother may be more compatible with each other than with plants of the same species that had different mothers. 
"The more we know about plants, the more complex their interactions seem to be, so it may be as hard to predict the outcome as when you mix different people at a party," she joked. 
How the plants learn which neighbor is a relative is still a mystery. Dudley speculates that a protein or chemical signal specific to each plant's family might be secreted and detected by other roots nearby. 
The study was supported by a grant from the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council of Canada. It appeared Tuesday in the Royal Society journal "Biology Letters."


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 2, 2008)

I see no reason that if plants can recognise siblings then they could also recognise male and female plants.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 2, 2008)

here's another good read...

Root Exudation and Rhizosphere Biology -- Walker et al. 132 (1): 44 -- PLANT PHYSIOLOGY


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## Lamafia ck (Jan 2, 2008)

shes on that killa kush auhuhauhahua

i got WW and hash berry on the same bubbler system they r growing fineee they r are all buddies lol


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## kochab (Jan 2, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> most of what i grow is schwag.


the mexicans you get weed from must have better genetics than around here. lol
schwag in cali is a LOT different than here in the south myu friend. most people around here in north carolina unless they know a grower can only find schwag from mexico that has been bricked up for 2 years or more with like 80 seeds per ounce. got my drift. unless someone here knowing a grower regularly buys nugget then folks dont wanna pay more than $30 a quarter ounce.

im from atlanta before moving here so, im used do a decent selection if the kine floatin around.
i decided to start growing when i moved here. lol


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## nowstopwhining (Jan 2, 2008)

nongreenthumb said:


> Thats pretty offensive talk, there was serious discussion going on here.
> 
> Personal attacks are not tolerated.


thats pretty funny seeing as I was attacked multiple times by skunk without anyone stopping it.


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## Garden Knowm (Jan 3, 2008)

kindprincess said:


> i think plants do communicate with each other.



princess..

there is this book..

"the secret life of plants" 

it is amazing... this guy is doing experiments with semen hookd up to a POLYGRAPH machine... 

When the seemen is hooked up to the machine and the owner of the seemen enters the room.. th polygraph would register..

So this guy hooks the polygraph machine up to plants... and the experiments start to show some amazing shit..

One experiment he does..

he has a guy go into a room with three plants.... and kill one of the plants... the polygraph machine on al the plants goes crazy

Then the guy leaves the room...

People start coming back into the room and the plants are fine.. and the machine is calm... then when the man who killed the plants enters the room.. the polygraph machines starts to act up..

there are many cool experiments in that book

iloveyou


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## kindprincess (Jan 3, 2008)

Garden Knowm said:


> princess..
> 
> there is this book..
> 
> ...


that's fooking awesome babe! do you have a link or title?

and stop messing with everyone's wife and mother; i don't like cheaters o.0


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 3, 2008)

Garden Knowm said:


> princess..
> 
> there is this book..
> 
> ...


holy crap... that sounds like a very good read. I'm going to google some of that info' right now.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 3, 2008)

Wow, this goes back to 1973... you sure people were compos mentis back then? Here's a link tyo the Wiki version...

The Secret Life of Plants - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

and the movie on google: The Secret Life of Plants

Hey in the movie you get music from Stevie wonder. Made in 1979.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 3, 2008)

Damn its on for an hour and a half. I'm going to have to wait till I can watch this. The first 5 minutes drags on a little with stevie's intro... i hope it settles down soon...

Just turn the volume down till someone starts talking.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 3, 2008)

wow, bose sounds like my kind of guy.

Thanks for the reference GK!


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## closet.cult (Jan 3, 2008)

jackinthebox said:


> This just got posted


Originally Posted by *thcisme*  
_From literature it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors. For growers who are well experienced, percentage of female plants is 60% - 90% female, but less experienced growers can end up with 100% male plants. The environmental factors that, according to literature, influence gender are:_
_- a higher nitrogen concentration will give more females (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks)._
_- a higher potassium concentration will give more males (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks)._
_- a higher humidity will give more females (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks)._
_- a lower temperature will give more females (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks)._
_- more blue light will give more females (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks)._
_- Fewer hours of light will give more females (at the three-pairs-of-leaves stage and continue for two or three weeks)._
_- In later stage, as you increase the light, the plants grow faster and show more females/less males. Sixteen hours of light per day seems to be the best combination, beyond this makes little or no appreciable difference in the plant quality. _
_- Another idea is to interrupt the night cycle with about one hour of light. This gives you more females._
_- Spray dilute Fish Emulsion ( 1 tablespoon per gallon ). When the plants have three sets of true leaves, plus the top sprout, give them a wetting spray of Fish Emulsion. Do it once a day for three of four days. Top and bottom of the leaves._
_- To achieve 100% female plants is to expose young seedlings for several hours to an atmosphere of Carbon Monoxide. It doesn't hurt the plants, but it could kill you._
_- Treatment of hempseed with ethylene gas will increase the resulting number of female plants by about 50%. Ethylene is produced by certain plants (i.e., bananas, cucumbers and melons), and these can be used to treat hempseed in a simple manner. About two weeks before you plan to sprout the seeds, place them in a paper bag or envelope and put that in a plastic bag with the peels of a ripening banana or cucumber. Replace the peels after a couple of days, and change the bags to prevent mold._
_- When hempseed is treated with the female hormone estrogen, percentage of females that are produced will increase by about 10%. Dissolve a birth control pill in water and soak the seeds overnight in the solution. After the initial soaking, continue to treat the seeds by sprouting them on a paper towel soaked in the solution.[/quote]_

_I appreciate this being posted. It presents a clear and testable hypothesis. And I intend on testing these factors with the dozens of seeds I got from my last grow. But the problem is it is still VERY inconclusive. Why? Let me quote:_

_-For growers who are well experienced, percentage of female plants is 60% - 90% female, but less experienced growers *can end up* with 100% male plants._

_100% male rarely occure. I recall only two RIU member ever mentioning that. Plus, 60%-90% means an experience grower gets 6 to 9 seeds out of 10 to be female. I got that ratio from the very first time I ever grew, without any special treatment. _

_- When hempseed is treated with the female hormone estrogen, percentage of females that are produced will increase by about 10%._

_- Treatment of hempseed with ethylene gas will increase the resulting number of female plants by about 50%._

_So, I assume we're still talking about tricks that the experienced grower uses here. A 50% increase from the ethylene gas (which, if 10 natural seeds started with 5 females adds only 2 to 3 more) PLUS a 10% estrogen treatment (which if you now have 8 females should add 1 more) takes us to an experienced growers MAXIMUM of 90% female ratio. BUT, he may still only end up with 6 females out of 10, after all the treatments. That's not much better then what the law of averages tells us should be the normal, untreated rate of 50%. AND WE STARTED THIS EQUATION WITH 5 FEMALES (50%) THAT ANY GROWER WOULD HAVE ACHIEVED, IN THE FIRST PLACE._

_(The one variable not mentioned is if there are naturally more of one sex represented then the other in cannabis seeds. If that question could possibly be answered, we'd save alot of trouble)_

_I'm am NOT arguing that environment does not play a role, for sure. I havn't read any real research in those studies, yet. I am arguing that there is nothing in this artical to suggest that these methods offered really will work. 60% female rate is hardly conclusive. There is no reason to suspect that even a 90% female rate couldn't be just the luck of the draw on your seeds. (Of course, a *consistant* 90% female rate would be strong evidence. But the artical clearly says 60-90% female rate, using the experienced growers tricks.)_

_- To achieve 100% female plants is to expose young seedlings for several hours to an atmosphere of Carbon Monoxide._

_Finally, a testable statement toward a conclusive diagnosis of environment and sex relationship. Of course, it is reasonable to conclude that if environment can bring about a hermaphrodite, then it is at least *possible* to induce a full sex change. _

_Carbon monoxide is a poison. If this is true, the plant is obviously responding to the poisoning. _

_But the other previous examples, it appears to me, are only minor '*possible*' triggers. It depend on the genetic make-up of each particular seed. Just as some humans may have the genetic predisposition to aquire cancer or seasonal allergies, they may never experience those ailments if they are not exposed to the specific triggers for their genetic makeup._


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## closet.cult (Jan 3, 2008)

Garden Knowm said:


> princess..
> 
> there is this book..
> 
> ...


yeah. myth busters debunked a couple of these. but what do they know? seriously.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 3, 2008)

Great movie. had to fast forward through a few boring musical bits but overall it was a good watch.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 3, 2008)

closet.cult said:


> But the other previous examples, it appears to me, are only minor '*possible*' triggers. It depend on the genetic make-up of each particular seed. Just as some humans may have the genetic predisposition to aquire cancer or seasonal allergies, they may never experience those ailments if they are not exposed to the specific triggers for their genetic makeup.[/I]


Yes exactly. just because one plant will change with one factor this does not mean that a whole bunch will. Also the hermie factor must come into play before any such event.

I was left very unsatisfied with that DP article the very first time I read it, and am still not happy with it now.


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## overfiend (Jan 5, 2008)

every summer i do an outdoor grow from s large collection of seeds that i have been growing with for about 10 years every year i take about 30 seeds (i have 1000's from selling all the ones i kept are from the same strain) of the 30 plants about 1/2 are female every year.
a few years ago we had a very cold overcast spring and most of summer. that year alone i had 6 hermies. maybe it was my seed but i usually have good outcome. also my brother lives nextdoor to me and 3 of his plants that year were hermie also. is this from environment?
i think so. we also had some mold on plants that year due to it being very damp all year.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 5, 2008)

Yes it's clear that the environment does play a part in hermies. What isn't clear is whether plants can completely change sex mid-veg'.

Hence the predisposition with seeds.

It is claimed that a plant will be predisposed to be one sex or the other but environmental factors can change the sex of that plant. So it will completely reverse sex.


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## nowstopwhining (Jan 5, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes it's clear that the environment does play a part in hermies. What isn't clear is whether plants can completely change sex mid-veg'.
> 
> Hence the predisposition with seeds.
> 
> It is claimed that a plant will be predisposed to be one sex or the other but environmental factors can change the sex of that plant. So it will completely reverse sex.


That is the complete opposite of what you were trying to say in the beginning of this thread...


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 6, 2008)

nowstopwhining said:


> That is the complete opposite of what you were trying to say in the beginning of this thread...


I'm tired of explaining things to you. If you look at the last part of my post it says... IT IS CLAIMED... the first part of my post says that the environment causes HERMIES....

You want to stay over at GP NSW... or should I call you Rhinadonna. In fact, what are you still doing here? You here just to cause trouble? Maybe to enlist people for your new home (ghost town, rather)?


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## nowstopwhining (Jan 6, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> I'm tired of explaining things to you. If you look at the last part of my post it says... IT IS CLAIMED... the first part of my post says that the environment causes HERMIES....
> 
> You want to stay over at GP NSW... or should I call you Rhinadonna. In fact, what are you still doing here? You here just to cause trouble? Maybe to enlist people for your new home (ghost town, rather)?


Yeah I do visit GP...did you know fdd is on other forums as well....holy shit what a surprise....

obviously you go there as well, "MUNCH BOX" shouldnt you be banned for multiple accounts? Your a fucking freak.


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## skunkushybrid (Jan 6, 2008)

nowstopwhining said:


> Yeah I do visit GP...did you know fdd is on other forums as well....holy shit what a surprise....
> 
> obviously you go there as well, "MUNCH BOX" shouldnt you be banned for multiple accounts? Your a fucking freak.


 
Who are you calling a freak? me or munch box? I think it's me, as you perceive me as being munch box. OK. Fine.


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## fdd2blk (Jan 6, 2008)

nowstopwhining said:


> Yeah I do visit GP...did you know fdd is on other forums as well....holy shit what a surprise....
> 
> obviously you go there as well, "MUNCH BOX" shouldn't you be banned for multiple accounts? Your a fucking freak.



i do have an account over at the island. i check in maybe once a week. it looked really cool at first but it didn't feel like home. i'm permanently banned from GP. wonder why? i started an account at grasscity before i found rollitup. i think i have 5 or 6 posts over there. that's it. anywhere else and somebody is using my name. 

he's said this twice now. i don't get the concern. am i at other sites bashing rollitup? i think not. 

if skunk is munch then the guy needs help. i saw the two of them arguing in another thread the other day. very convincing skunk. you should write movies or something.


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## mal_crane (Feb 3, 2008)

First, I'd just like to say that I believe that DP information was original falsely posted in OG, which is what led me to doing my own research. Second, I'd also like to say that, I am partially responsible for a recent revival in those DP beliefs simply because I can cut and paste the information without having to write such a long answer like this because until finding this thread and a thread on another forum I belong to, I thought that everyone was in general agreement about this issue. Apparently I was severely mistaken. 

Third, I want you all to know I'm not enterting this thread late to try and start an argument, nor am I declaring what I say is fact because it isn't, only opinions based on my own personal grows and research. Over the course of the last 10 or 15 grows that I experimented these 'myths' on, I have discovered _*on my own semi-controlled grows*_ that certain environmental factors do have an affect on the gender of the plant. I say semi-controlled because I have never had ph problems with my plants, therefore I use no ph meter. I am not disclosing scientific research, so please don't send an attack my way as if I am. Unless I am just a lucky guy and manage to get only 5-10% predetermined male seeds, then these are environmental factors I have noticed that seemed to have some sort of affect on the gender of my plants and only have an affect up until about 1 month of growth: 


24/0 lighting seems to give me more males, which is why I no longer use it.


18/6 lighting seems to give me more females.


Using 12/12 from sprout doesn't seem to give any higher of a concentration of females than 18/6.


Constant temps between 65-75f seems to produce more females, while any constant above 80 gives me a higher concentration of males.


A humidity above 40% seems to produce more females, while a humidity below 25% somehow has shown more males to develop.

I regret to inform all of you that I can't produce any information about different nutrient levels affecting the sex of the plant. And please remember, I am not submitting any of this as fact, only factors that have changed my grows. I'd also like to say that a Jorge Cervantes book was where DP got there information. Can anybody guess which one? I'll give +rep for that answer!


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## kindprincess (Feb 3, 2008)

fdd2blk said:


> i do have an account over at the island. i check in maybe once a week. it looked really cool at first but it didn't feel like home. i'm permanently banned from GP. wonder why? i started an account at grasscity before i found rollitup. i think i have 5 or 6 posts over there. that's it. anywhere else and somebody is using my name.
> 
> he's said this twice now. i don't get the concern. am i at other sites bashing rollitup? i think not.
> 
> if skunk is munch then the guy needs help. i saw the two of them arguing in another thread the other day. very convincing skunk. you should write movies or something.


i have an account at every pot forum i can think of. ic, island, cdot, entho, botswap, i could go on for an hour.....

what's the point?


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## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

On topic,all of the info that i have read including that from wiki states that seeds are not predisposed and that environmental factors are the key.
This grow that i am currently doing has the highest ever ratio of males that i have ever had and i think its due to me using the hps for veg.
To much red light causing the wrong environmental factors making more males


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## mal_crane (Feb 3, 2008)

Could very well be the problem. Come to think of it, my HPS grow may have had the highest ratio of males I've ever had. I'll be back let me check my notebooks.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 3, 2008)

natmoon said:


> On topic,all of the info that i have read including that from wiki states that seeds are not predisposed and that environmental factors are the key.
> This grow that i am currently doing has the highest ever ratio of males that i have ever had and i think its due to me using the hps for veg.
> To much red light causing the wrong environmental factors making more males


Hey nat', you need to read outside of cannabis to read about seed predisposition.

Why would more red light cause more males? I too have had high ratios of males, and likewise high ratios of females. I always veg the same way. Right now I have a 50/50 ratio. If environment played a part then my ratios would always lean one way or the other, and they don't.

I have plants that veg' like a fem and 99% of the time this is what they are and end up, likewise for males.

I just vegged 2 plants in a pure UV environment for 4 weeks, one plant started out like a fem, wider, shorter plant... the other started like a male, and they both followed suit into pre-flower. They followed their growth patterns.

If environment does play a part, then it is with the parents.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 3, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> First, I'd just like to say that I believe that DP information was original falsely posted in OG, which is what led me to doing my own research. Second, I'd also like to say that, I am partially responsible for a recent revival in those DP beliefs simply because I can cut and paste the information without having to write such a long answer like this because until finding this thread and a thread on another forum I belong to, I thought that everyone was in general agreement about this issue. Apparently I was severely mistaken.
> 
> Third, I want you all to know I'm not enterting this thread late to try and start an argument, nor am I declaring what I say is fact because it isn't, only opinions based on my own personal grows and research. Over the course of the last 10 or 15 grows that I experimented these 'myths' on, I have discovered _*on my own semi-controlled grows*_ that certain environmental factors do have an affect on the gender of the plant. I say semi-controlled because I have never had ph problems with my plants, therefore I use no ph meter. I am not disclosing scientific research, so please don't send an attack my way as if I am. Unless I am just a lucky guy and manage to get only 5-10% predetermined male seeds, then these are environmental factors I have noticed that seemed to have some sort of affect on the gender of my plants and only have an affect up until about 1 month of growth:
> 
> ...


I always veg' 24/0. I always get a decent ratio. I'm on or around 50/50.

Jorges Cervantes got the information from DP. Their experiment was on feminised seed and the environmental influences that can prevent 100% female plants. 

This got confused with real plants and the bullshit spread very quickly. I don't think Jorges cares whether it's actually true or not.


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## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

Like you said i have no proof of anything only what i have read.
I have read a lot of material as well as what is written at wiki.
I have never had so many males as i have now after vegging with a hps instead of blue fluros.

Its just my own observations and not a claim to know.
The theory is based on the fact that a hps simulates autumn light and that the plant may be caused to become male thinking that it has not enough time to become a fully fledged female as balls are ready more quickly than buds.

I also tried the seed shape method recently and every single seed out of 18 is male and none of them are female.
Do you think it may be possible that using t8 cool blue tubes on their own help to make more females due to their flicker rate and simulation of blue making the seedlings think it is very early in the season?


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 3, 2008)

Well all cannabis plants have the potential for hermaphroditism, it is possible that they are born with both, and one chromosome becomes more dominant depending on environment. Although the supposition seems very unstable to me.

It makes more sense as a survival mechanism to have a 50/50 ratio. The environment should not matter. If you think back nat' I bet you were very good at spotting fem's and males early. Sometimes you can pip them from the moment they get rid of their seed casings. I do it all the time. Male, female, male etc etc... 90% of the time I am right.

The only differnce light makes is in growth patterns. With more red the plants will have more defined leaf edges, and be of a darker green. You know yourself that cannabis adapts really well and will use whatever light you give it.

Cannabis is born with a genetic code, the environment is not enough to sex reverse a plant. Not unless this trait is somehow encouraged and through successive breeding, a plant is finally created that can be moulded in such a way.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 3, 2008)

Also, if you were to ask most people on this site that use HID's. They go for HPS, and most only have the space to have 1 light. Most of them go for HPS and use this light all the way through with no problems.


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## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> Well all cannabis plants have the potential for hermaphroditism, it is possible that they are born with both, and one chromosome becomes more dominant depending on environment. Although the supposition seems very unstable to me.
> 
> It makes more sense as a survival mechanism to have a 50/50 ratio. The environment should not matter. If you think back nat' I bet you were very good at spotting fem's and males early. Sometimes you can pip them from the moment they get rid of their seed casings. I do it all the time. Male, female, male etc etc... 90% of the time I am right.
> 
> ...


Yeah totally agree with spotting the signs of possible males and females.
I have never vegged with a hps before though and i have never had 18 males from a batch before.
Nothing is different for my room other than the hps.
On my last grow i didn't even have the hps on for the first 2-3 weeks and i only had 2 or 3 males.

My dealer has said that my hps ballast will run mh bulbs as well so i will try this next time and make a veg cupboard as well with three 3 foot t8s in and see if the ratios are better or different.

Really without a proper lab analysis on millions of seeds its a hard call to make with any real sway


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 3, 2008)

18 males is a very rare occurence. You might say impossible.

Surely you see though that a genetic propensity for sex reversal would work to cannabis' detriment. All males cannot continue the line.

Where were the seeds from?


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## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> 18 males is a very rare occurence. You might say impossible.
> 
> Surely you see though that a genetic propensity for sex reversal would work to cannabis' detriment. All males cannot continue the line.
> 
> Where were the seeds from?


The seeds were the triploid/whorled sativa male crossed with the blue mostly indica.
I used that seeds shape chart thing and selected 18 good looking seeds of all shapes and sizes and asked people to judge which they though would be which sex.
According to the chart many should have been females but none were.
I have 7 out of 10 females though on my pppxblueberryxsativa from the same sativa under the same hps lamp so i have to admit now ive thought about it a bit harder you must be right or the pppxs would all have been male to.

So i guess i got unlucky and selected 18 males seeds purely by chance or maybe life itself used me to prove that the seed shape chart is bullshit lol

Heres a pic of the seeds that were all male.
I thought that according to the seed shape chart to determine sex there was a good mix of difference but it wasnt so.


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## fdd2blk (Feb 3, 2008)

natmoon said:


> The seeds were the triploid/whorled sativa male crossed with the blue mostly indica.
> I used that seeds shape chart thing and selected 18 good looking seeds of all shapes and sizes and asked people to judge which they though would be which sex.
> According to the chart many should have been females but none were.
> I have 7 out of 10 females though on my pppxblueberryxsativa from the same sativa under the same hps lamp so i have to admit now ive thought about it a bit harder you must be right or the pppxs would all have been male to.
> ...



maybe you read the chart backwards.


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## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

I asked other people to guess based on the chart.
I didn't make any guesses myself.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 3, 2008)

natmoon said:


> The seeds were the triploid/whorled sativa male crossed with the blue mostly indica.
> I used that seeds shape chart thing and selected 18 good looking seeds of all shapes and sizes and asked people to judge which they though would be which sex.
> According to the chart many should have been females but none were.
> I have 7 out of 10 females though on my pppxblueberryxsativa from the same sativa under the same hps lamp so i have to admit now ive thought about it a bit harder you must be right or the pppxs would all have been male to.
> ...


I hear that, at one time I was so confident I could predict males and fem's just a few days into veg' that I made a thread about it on here. Everything was reversed. The fems all grew like males but turned out fems, and the opposite for males... needless to say, i made a sharp exit on the thread.


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## natmoon (Feb 3, 2008)

Yeah seems to be something thats not possible to tell from a size and shape chart.
Heres a link to the thread asking people to guess based on that chart.
Obviously the chart doesn't work.
I now also believe that sex must be predisposed and has nothing to do with size shape or lighting

https://www.rollitup.org/newbie-central/42060-silly-question-5.html#post448528


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 3, 2008)

I tried the chart thing too on this grow, and it was out. It did however work in favour of the females, but this is just luck.


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## mal_crane (Feb 4, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> I always veg' 24/0. I always get a decent ratio. I'm on or around 50/50.
> 
> Jorges Cervantes got the information from DP. Their experiment was on feminised seed and the environmental influences that can prevent 100% female plants.
> 
> This got confused with real plants and the bullshit spread very quickly. I don't think Jorges cares whether it's actually true or not.


And I used to veg on 24/0 and got the same ratio of 50/50, did my research, experimented with many grows and because of the results I got I only grow with 18/6 or 12/12 depending on what type of crop i'm going for and now I only get 5-10% males. Just something that works for me, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm not saying you're right.

Now if you'd read my entire article, I said the information was on feminised seeds, however Cervantes did use this information before DP. Dutch Passion simply added to it. I also said I did not agree with the article and was only typing the results of MY OWN research not scientific fact!


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 4, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> And I used to veg on 24/0 and got the same ratio of 50/50, did my research, experimented with many grows and because of the results I got I only grow with 18/6 or 12/12 depending on what type of crop i'm going for and now I only get 5-10% males. Just something that works for me, I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm not saying you're right.
> 
> Now if you'd read my entire article, I said the information was on feminised seeds, however Cervantes did use this information before DP. Dutch Passion simply added to it. I also said I did not agree with the article and was only typing the results of MY OWN research not scientific fact!


DP actually devised and did the experiments... so if Jorges didn't copy it from them, who did he copy it from? 

And by declaring this 'research' of yours you are agreeing that environment can sex reverse cannabis.


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## mal_crane (Feb 4, 2008)

No dude. What I'm saying is seeds are not predetermined. Seeds carry with them both genes for male and female. Some seeds have a more dominant sex gene. Therefore environment has a factor in which gene becomes more dominant. Let's see your 'research'.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 4, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> No dude. What I'm saying is seeds are not predetermined. Seeds carry with them both genes for male and female. Some seeds have a more dominant sex gene. Therefore environment has a factor in which gene becomes more dominant. Let's see your 'research'.


It is you claiming to be bringing something new to the table. Etiquette decrees that you show me yours, so to speak.

I also never once said anything about predetermination, this is a completely different thing to predisposition. A good definition for predisposition is within your own words, the part I underlined.

Once the seeds have developed within mommy the environment can not play any more part in the the development of the seed. The genetic code has already been established.

So just from using an 18/6 light schedule you can get 90 females out of 100 normal seeds? I smell bullshit.


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## mal_crane (Feb 4, 2008)

Only stating what I've done in my own grows man. Show me your 'research' that the seed's predominant sex isn't affected by the environment, as that is what you _are_ bringing to the table, correct?.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 4, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> Only stating what I've done in my own grows man. Show me your 'research' that the seed's predominant sex isn't affected by the environment, as that is what you _are_ bringing to the table, correct?.


Of course the dominant chromosome can be affected by the environment. Plants go hermie.

The research is all over the web in scientific papers etc... do your own research...

Yet someone that can guarantee at LEAST 90 females out of 100 seeds just by using an 18/6 light schedule, doesn't need to do any research, right? You got your experience. Your 18/6 light schedule works miracles.

Is this the only thing you're bringing to this thread, your bullshit experience?

Go away and come back with some facts.


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## mal_crane (Feb 4, 2008)

I've never seen someone who can't acknowledge, let alone appreciate, another's finding and consider them bullshit. I have never stated that any of my research as fact either. I'm telling you that, after recording all my own personal findings researching the DP/Cervantes statements, that the environment does affect the plants dominant gene. When will we see you apply these factors to your own grows to prove me wrong? You can call my findings bullshit so lets see your own results.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 4, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> I've never seen someone who can't acknowledge, let alone appreciate, another's finding and consider them bullshit. I have never stated that any of my research as fact either. I'm telling you that, after recording all my own personal findings researching the DP/Cervantes statements, that the environment does affect the plants dominant gene. When will we see you apply these factors to your own grows to prove me wrong? You can call my findings bullshit so lets see your own results.


I used to grow with an 18/6 light schedule. I have done it in under both blue and red light... odds are always the same.

50/50 always evens out in the end, yet if you flip a coin it is always possible to get 10 heads in a row.


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## mal_crane (Feb 4, 2008)

What does red and blue light have anything to do with the results I brought forth? My results only talked about light schedule, temps, and humidity. Put all of my findings to test, I'm waiting. Prove me wrong using the conditions that I tested. Let's see it.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 4, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> What does red and blue light have anything to do with the results I brought forth? My results only talked about light schedule, temps, and humidity. Put all of my findings to test, I'm waiting. Prove me wrong using the conditions that I tested. Let's see it.


I don't need to prove you wrong, your bullshit is clear for me to see already.

The fact that you don't even comprehend what effect light spectrum has on the environment speaks volumes about your bullshit claims. You have very little understanding of the subject in hand and, quite frankly, you are now starting to bore the shit out of me.


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## mal_crane (Feb 4, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> I don't need to prove you wrong, your bullshit is clear for me to see already.
> 
> The fact that you don't even comprehend what effect light spectrum has on the environment speaks volumes about your bullshit claims. You have very little understanding of the subject in hand and, quite frankly, you are now starting to bore the shit out of me.


Wow try reading that one again and we'll see the less intelligent one. I SAID WHAT DID THE COLOR SPECTRUM HAVE TO DO WITH MY FINDINGS NOT WHAT AFFECT THE COLOR SPECTRUM HAS ON PLANTS!!!!!! Do you honestly think that after the amount of grows I have, that I wouldn't know the difference in what color spectrums have to do with vegging and flowering? Blue for veg, red for flower. When using cfl's, 6500k is for vegging and 2700k is closer to the red part of the spectrum for flowering. Read before you throw your own bullshit around asshole. I said prove to me that MY FINDINGS ARE INCORRECT! Why don't you have a little more respect for the fellow growers here. We're trying to help each other, while lately all you have done is thrown around bullshit from one thread to the next. It just seems to me you're a little bit afraid of being wrong here. Instead of being condescending me, lets see a little action to prove me wrong. I'm still waiting.


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## MsMILFweed (Feb 5, 2008)

Personally I think seeds are pre-determined from the moment of pollenation. A bit like having a baby, the sex of the baby is determined the moment the egg and sperm meet and the cells divide. An embryo/baby generally doesn't change sex halfway through gestation. 

I don't think a seed is pre-disposed to be one sex or the other, I think that moment decided the instant that piece of pollen falls on the stigma of the pistil of the female preflower. 

Of course I have no proof of this, but then how can anyone prove that they're able to change the sex of their seeds to female?

I used to grow 18/6 and a year ago starting growing 24/0 .. I still get a general 50/50 ratio with seeds germed.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 6, 2008)

MsMILFweed said:


> Personally I think seeds are pre-determined from the moment of pollenation. A bit like having a baby, the sex of the baby is determined the moment the egg and sperm meet and the cells divide. An embryo/baby generally doesn't change sex halfway through gestation.
> 
> I don't think a seed is pre-disposed to be one sex or the other, I think that moment decided the instant that piece of pollen falls on the stigma of the pistil of the female preflower.
> 
> ...


yes you're right... me too. All these guys think it makes you a better grower to get more females, when in reality it is purely down to chance.


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## ccodiane (Feb 6, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> Just like you I wanted to see evidence of this. How could they test it in the first place? How long would it take for them to be sure? 50/50 evens out in the end, but when is the end? A 50/50 ratio seems the most likely to me, no matter the environment.





skunkushybrid said:


> yes you're right... me too. All these guys think it makes you a better grower to get more females, when in reality it is purely down to chance.


First page to last. Have you satisfied yourself?


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 6, 2008)

ccodiane said:


> First page to last. Have you satisfied yourself?


If you mean am I satisfied that seeds are predisposed to be one sex or the other then, yes... although I have been satisfied of that for a long time before this thread.


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## MsMILFweed (Feb 6, 2008)

Hey, I remember back on Overgrow there was a thread which was about how you could sex seeds (now if this article were true this would be presuming that seeds are pre-determined). I can't remember the exact details, but it was something like if there was a hole/dip in the tip of the seed, or something like a coconut then the seed was either male/female. Sorry.. .stoner brain,  I can't remember the details 

I had saved the photo, but lost it when OG went down. I've searched over the net since for it, but never been able to find it. Anyone ever seen/heard anything about it?


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 6, 2008)

MsMILFweed said:


> Hey, I remember back on Overgrow there was a thread which was about how you could sex seeds (now if this article were true this would be presuming that seeds are pre-determined). I can't remember the exact details, but it was something like if there was a hole/dip in the tip of the seed, or something like a coconut then the seed was either male/female. Sorry.. .stoner brain,  I can't remember the details
> 
> I had saved the photo, but lost it when OG went down. I've searched over the net since for it, but never been able to find it. Anyone ever seen/heard anything about it?


Yes fdd has it, although it has proved to be inaccurate. 

I find that males will grow tall and slim and the fem's short and squat, they do this right from the start.


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## munch box (Feb 9, 2008)

The plants sex is NOT predetermined from seed. environmental factors play a huge roll in sexing a plant. It is evolution. survival of the species. Red light will make a plant think it doesn't have enouph time to mature into a budding plant so it becomes a male. its no secret that males flower before females.but it wouldn't suprise me if skunk wants to argue that too. george cervantes and a group of scientists funded by dutch passion seed company proved this theory over thousands of tests. heres what they came up with. 

Environmental factors don't begin influencing your plants sex until there are 3 pairs of true leaves.(not counting cotyledons) 

1)higher nitrogen levels during the first two weeks of vegging makes more female plants.
2)lower temps increase the ammount of female plants
3)high humidity increases the number of female plants
4)low growing medium moisture increases male tendencies
5)blue light (MH) increases the chances of a female. choose a red light(hps) for males
6)fewer hours of daylight increases the ammount of females (14 hours)

this information was taken from Henk's archives. the owner of dutch passion seeds


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

munch box said:


> The plants sex is NOT predetermined from seed. environmental factors play a huge roll in sexing a plant. It is evolution. survival of the species. Red light will make a plant think it doesn't have enouph time to mature into a budding plant so it becomes a male. its no secret that males flower before females.but it wouldn't suprise me if skunk wants to argue that too. george cervantes and a group of scientists funded by dutch passion seed company proved this theory over thousands of tests. heres what they came up with.
> 
> Environmental factors don't begin influencing your plants sex until there are 3 pairs of true leaves.(not counting cotyledons)
> 
> ...


if you'd read through this entire thread then you would realise that I have argued this point many times... over and over again. The tests were for feminised seed... and even in that, they are still a load of bollocks.


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## munch box (Feb 9, 2008)

Nope those seeds were not femanized. you must be thinking of some other test or you made that part up because you think it sounds cool. OK skunk. you're the scientist. All those other people who do this for a living have no idea what they are talking about. right?


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## munch box (Feb 9, 2008)

MsMILFweed said:


> Personally I think seeds are pre-determined from the moment of pollenation. A bit like having a baby, the sex of the baby is determined the moment the egg and sperm meet and the cells divide. An embryo/baby generally doesn't change sex halfway through gestation.
> 
> I don't think a seed is pre-disposed to be one sex or the other, I think that moment decided the instant that piece of pollen falls on the stigma of the pistil of the female preflower.
> 
> ...


It is NOTHING like having a baby.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

munch box said:


> All those other people who do this for a living have no idea what they are talking about. right?


Nope, just you don't...

I read the original and full experiment, from start to finish... it was about feminised seed. Read through this thread, you really need to.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

munch box said:


> It is NOTHING like having a baby.


 
That's where you're wrong... plants are very similar to mammals, and in this respect (breeding) plants are more similar to humans than we are to birds.


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## munch box (Feb 9, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> That's where you're wrong... plants are very similar to mammals, and in this respect (breeding) plants are more similar to humans than we are to birds.


OMG. skunk i know you read a lot. but maybe your experimentation time would be cut in half if your IQ went up about 60 points. For those people who want to know the truth click the link. page 20 Marijuana Horticulture: The Indoor ... - Google Book Search


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

So you expect people to wade through a whole book to get to the 'truth'... why don't you just cut n paste the 'truth' for us all to see?

Plants are more like mammals when it comes to breeding and the transferrance of genetic code than mammals are to birds... fact, in fact it's only just been recently discovered.

If your interest in cannabis stretched as far and wide as mine then maybe you would be up to spec. too...


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## panhead (Feb 9, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> Yes, but these are myths spread by very respected breeders. They say, "red light causes more males" they say "24/0 causes more males".
> 
> Yet, on this site people regularly feed these myths. Do a certain thing with your lights and you get more fem's. Yeah right. I'm not convinced.


I agree that the whole theory is seriously flawed,i'd love to see a few peer reviewed white papers devoted to this subject.

There has to be some half crazed botanist somewhere who researched the shit out of this i would think.


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## munch box (Feb 9, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> So you expect people to wade through a whole book to get to the 'truth'... why don't you just cut n paste the 'truth' for us all to see?
> 
> Plants are more like mammals when it comes to breeding and the transferrance of genetic code than mammals are to birds... fact, in fact it's only just been recently discovered.
> 
> If your interest in cannabis stretched as far and wide as mine then maybe you would be up to spec. too...


its on page 20 . you are talking about something different now. either you are confusing yourself or you are trying to confuse your subscribers.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

munch box said:


> its on page 20 . you are talking about something different now. either you are confusing yourself or you are trying to confuse your subscribers.


I'm not trying to confuse anybody... just because you are confused does not mean that this is what i set out to do.


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## mal_crane (Feb 9, 2008)

panhead said:


> I agree that the whole theory is seriously flawed,i'd love to see a few peer reviewed white papers devoted to this subject.
> 
> There has to be some half crazed botanist somewhere who researched the shit out of this i would think.


I may not be a half crazed botanist, but I've attempted to test some of these theories. My findings were a few pages back, but of course skunk shot them down. Didn't you know that mods are always right?


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## mal_crane (Feb 9, 2008)

munch box said:


> its on page 20 . you are talking about something different now. either you are confusing yourself or you are trying to confuse your subscribers.


It's a little bit of both. He just doesn't want to lose his battle and tarnish his godly repute as a mod. Arguing your point with him won't work either, he'll just ignore you or become a raging lunatic. I even attempted to get him to test my findings himself and give me scientific evidence to prove that my findings were incorrect. All he could come up with were cut and paste links from his own website without original sources.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

I don't need to do your silly little tests.

Anyone that has grown more than one crop will tell you that when it grows like a female, it's 99% of the time a female, likewise for a male.

I have my fem's and males picked from just a few days of veg', and so long as the plants are of good genetic stock... I pick right 99% of the time.

I've done this under 18/6, 20/4 and 24/0. Always the same.

Seeds are PREDISPOSED (different word to predetermined, munch box) to be one sex or the other.


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## mal_crane (Feb 9, 2008)

Well here you go Mr. Always right about everything no matter what evidence is brought forth God-like mod. This was published by a group of scientists who tested the theories of environmental factors affecting the sex of cannabis strains. Some real scientific evidence, not the horseshit plastered all over your own site.

*Proceedings of the XLV Italian Society of Agricultural Genetics - SIGA Annual Congress
Salsomaggiore Terme, Italy - 26/29 September, 2001
ISBN 88-900622-1-5

Oral Communication Abstract


SEARCH FOR THE GENES INVOLVED IN SEXUAL DIFFERENTIATION OF CANNABIS SATIVA L.

MOLITERNI V.M.C.*, CATTIVELLI L.**, MANDOLINO G.*, RANALLI P.*

* Istituto Sperimentale per le Colture Industriali. Via di Corticella 133, 40129 Bologna
[email protected]
** Istituto Sperimentale per la Cerealicoltiura, Sezione di Fiorenzuola d'Arda, Via S. Protaso 302, Fiorenzuola d'Arda, Piacenza


Cannabis sativa L., sexual differentiation, cDNA AFLP

Cannabis sativa is a naturally dioecious species with heterogametic males ( 2n = 18+XY ) and homogametic females ( 2n = 18+XX ). The sexual differentiation of C. sativa is strongly influenced by environmental factors such as temperature and photoperiod. Anomalies also occur in floral development like the presence of reproductive structures of the opposite sex, or the development of bisexual inflorescences (monoecious phenotype).

By means of optical microscopy, we have identified the earliest step of apex sexual differentiation as the leaves of the fourth node rise on. More than 50% of the samples observed at this stage have indeed developed some floral meristem buds.

In order to identify the genes involved in these earliests stages of the sexual differentiation of C. sativa, we have carried out an analysis of gene expression by means of the cDNA AFLP technique. Apices from the fourth node of male and female plants, grown in controlled conditions were collected, than the mRNA was extracted and used as template for the cDNA synthesis. Double stranded cDNA was digested with the restriction enzymes BstY1 and Mse1. Analysis of amplified fragments obtained using 60 combinations of the BstY+1 and Mse+3 primers enabled us to identify few hundreds of fragments with an apparent differential expression in male and female samples. In order to verify their actual differential expression, these fragments were eluted from the gel and re-amplified with the same primers combinations that were used to generate them. Subsequently they were blotted in double copies and than hybridised respectively with the total cDNA from males and females apices collected at the fourth node. This approach allowed the reduction of the fragments number to 12. Subcloning and sequencing will permit to track back to the genes having a differential expression at this stage of sexual development of C. sativa and that may be involved in its regulation.*

Did you want me to rephrase all that so you can understand it in low-level IQ terms, or can you manage to read it?


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## mrskitz (Feb 9, 2008)

well i think you could be right skunk,,,but (this is just a thought,NOT fact) feminized seeds will grow into females coz they were bred to be that,they could turn herm but thats a different story!they deffinatly will be female at first,but regular seeds are not bred to be one sex or the other so maybe the inviroment they grow in does determine what sex they eventually become?MAYBE,,,,kinda like how crocidile eggs have temperature dependant sex determination,,maybe that kinda thing happens with regular cannabis seeds once they sprought,,,just a thought,,,,,


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> Well here you go Mr. Always right about everything no matter what evidence is brought forth God-like mod. This was published by a group of scientists who tested the theories of environmental factors affecting the sex of cannabis strains. Some real scientific evidence, not the horseshit plastered all over your own site.
> 
> *Proceedings of the XLV Italian Society of Agricultural Genetics - SIGA Annual Congress*
> *Salsomaggiore Terme, Italy - 26/29 September, 2001*
> ...


I can understand it perfectly, but it appears that you can't. I see nothing about sex reversal in those words, only a brief mention of hermaphroditism.


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## mal_crane (Feb 9, 2008)

If you had carefully read the first paragraph, it clearly states that cannabis sativa runs two seperate genetic codes: one carrying an XY chromosome and one carrying a XX chromosome. The results found that the genetic code of XY can become either males or females depending on the environmental factors while the code carrying XX can only become female or hermaphrodite. It states that as early as the fourth node, environmental factors come into play in determining the sex of those plants carrying the XY genetic code for sex. To prove this, they used the very common cDNA AFLP method for finding differentiation of sex genes, and found that, when rebuilding the double stranded sequence of genetics that they tore down, the XY code doesn't begin to show differentiation between sexes until the fourth node of the plant has been grown. The reason you do not understand this SCIENTIFIC evidence is because you believe that all seeds have a dominant sex, and therefore believe that it is sex reversal that is happening. This is untrue based on these scientists findings. The heterogametic XY genetic code does not show a dominant sex gene until at least part way through the vegetation stage, clearly proving that environmental factors can give the X or Y gene a shove into being dominant in plants carrying the XY genetic sex code.


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## mal_crane (Feb 9, 2008)

What good is a moderator who can't admit they are wrong when presented with the scientific evidence proving that they are?


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

I don't see where it says that. All I'm reading is about how they cloned the DNA from mrna.

In dioecious plants, sex determination (male and female genes or combinations of heterochromosomes) occurs at the fertilisation stage. This is scientific fact.

I don't know what you're reading... maybe you need to paste the whole paper... because I really don't see the things you are saying...


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## mal_crane (Feb 9, 2008)

Your ignorance is astounding, take your head out of your ass and learn to read, I'm through wasting my time with someone who can't accept scientific fact.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> If you had carefully read the first paragraph, it clearly states that cannabis sativa runs two seperate genetic codes: one carrying an XY chromosome and one carrying a XX chromosome.quote]
> 
> Yes I read that, and i think you'll find that one is male and the other female... if you read it properly. lol.


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## mal_crane (Feb 9, 2008)

Yes moron and the XY code can become male or female depending on environmental factors!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thus negating your all seeds being predisposed THEORY! Congratulations you haven't proved to be completely ignorant.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 9, 2008)

sexual expression in dioecious plants happens on a genetic level. there are 3 genes responsible for this, 2 of which are A and B7, i forget the third. They control sexual expression in a predetermined way. They do this by setting heavy, endogenous levels of auxin and cytokinin regulators.

Morphological sex differences are not apparent in juvenile plants or in vegetative tissues.

Each genotype will maintain characteristic endogenous levels of growth regulators, even when subjected to tissue culture.

The environment stands no chance against genetic predisposition. All the environment can do is turn a plant hermie.

There's some actual facts for you... moron.


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## munch box (Feb 10, 2008)

skunk.i was wondering could you tell if the cotton candy seedlings are going to be female, and which will be male?


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 10, 2008)

To make any kind of informed judgement on that i would have needed to watch them grow. They are only a couple of days out of the medium.

Males will grow taller and faster than the females. The females will tend to concentrate on width.

The best time to be 70% sure is around a week after veg'... but then you will have needed to watch them grow. As the veg' dwindles on male and females will grow true to form, as is genetically predetermined by them.

It is a fact that males grow taller and faster than females. Basic cultivation, mate.


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## faralos (Feb 14, 2008)

I think it's the same as in all of us. As an egg we are predertermined to be either male or female. sometimes we change in the womb. I think all of nature does this to some degree. so Yeah, I think a seed could go 'balls up' so to speak and switch sexes partway thru due to stress or mebbe' it's just bored and wants to try a switch


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## faralos (Feb 14, 2008)

am into my 8th day of flowering, on my first big crop (16 plants) I just 'weeded' out 3 males that showed yesterday. These three were the tallest, by about 4" than any other of my babies. I suspected they would be males. I was right, so MOST of the time (depends on the strain. too), males grow faster, taller.


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## skunkushybrid (Feb 15, 2008)

faralos said:


> am into my 8th day of flowering, on my first big crop (16 plants) I just 'weeded' out 3 males that showed yesterday. These three were the tallest, by about 4" than any other of my babies. I suspected they would be males. I was right, so MOST of the time (depends on the strain. too), males grow faster, taller.


Yes, MOST of the time males will grow taller, faster... they do this almost from the start, maybe it is right at the very start... either way, seeds are most certainly predisposed to be one sex or the other.


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## metagrower (Apr 13, 2008)

nowstopwhining said:


> very good points, Im thinking it isnt environment alone, I think genetic make up plays a role as well.
> 
> I will try and make up a little scenario here:
> 
> ...


I may be a little late on this, but you have to consider that if sex were undetermined physiologically prior to flowering, then clones taken during veg would possibly be a different sex than their mother. However, this is not the case. Thus, it must be determined in the seed. 

Is my logic flawed on this?


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## metagrower (Apr 13, 2008)

mal_crane said:


> Congratulations you haven't proved to be completely ignorant.


Quoted for ironic emphasis.


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## nowstopwhining (Apr 14, 2008)

metagrower said:


> I may be a little late on this, but you have to consider that if sex were undetermined physiologically prior to flowering, then clones taken during veg would possibly be a different sex than their mother. However, this is not the case. Thus, it must be determined in the seed.
> 
> Is my logic flawed on this?



The reason why clones are always the same is because they are a 100% identical copy of the plant it came off of.


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## metagrower (Apr 14, 2008)

nowstopwhining said:


> The reason why clones are always the same is because they are a 100% identical copy of the plant it came off of.


I understand that. It was a founding assumption in my logic.


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## Moldy (Apr 14, 2008)

Okay, I'm not a "posting" type guy but this is kinda interesting to me. My first grow I germed 10 White Widow seeds. I'm in a dry climate inside and out. I didn't cover the seedlings or anything, just under a CWF indoors. I got 2 females out of 10 planted. 

So, this year (March 1) I plant 3 WW and 3 Skunkberry. This time they were germed in a humidity chamber and grew for about 2 weeks. I then moved them into my new grow room and now they are all showing female. Now I'm over my med limit and have to kill three of them! Ouch! (I'm keeping just one of the WW) I think the humidity had a role in it. The WW seeds were from the same batch of 20. Maybe in another few years this can be varified to me but for now it's just data or something to note. I'll post the results next grow but it could be just a fluke.


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## jeff3dfx (Apr 16, 2008)

skunkushybrid said:


> well, if a seed is predisposed to be one sex or the other how can it be that the environment can play a part in how many males there are? For this to happen, a pre-disposed plant must complete a full sex reversal.


I can only comment from my experience and my understanding of why a plant may do this for survival purposes. I think that a plant would force itself into going male in times of a stressful environment to ensure seed production for future generation of plants. 

In normal conditions there will be an even 50/50 split males and females, but when times get tough the genetics from the seed realize that not all other plants may endure the stressful times and therefore convert to survivalist mode turning hermy or doing a full out change of sex to ensure a new season of growth through self seed production. 

this is really all just theory in my head, feel free to comment on it


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## bicycle racer (Apr 16, 2008)

it seems to me that females have the ability to save themselves thru self pollination if need be this would generally be a last resort biologically because there is no genetic diversity produced thru this method of reproduction. it seems to me that only females have this trait like my lemon tree in the yard without this ability a whole species could die out if pollen was not available. i think only females have this ability i have never seen a true male produce female flowers or produce any growth that is not male in nature. i have heard fem seeds are produced (one method) using enviromental stresses or colloidial silver gibberelic acid etc to produce pollen. none of these methods actually change genetics so this would mean that all female seeds have both chromosomes right? but you cant stress a male into making female flowers so maybe there are true male seeds. but all females have herm traits. some strains thru envirement over generations are more prone to this behavior than another strain that developed in a different local with better conditions. i would bet that any female cannabis seed can be made to produce pollen with differences in strain making it easier or harder to do. male seeds seem to be the only ones that are truelly one sex only i find this interesting because im working with herm seeds and pollen currently on some crosses


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## kittybitches (Apr 16, 2008)

so is there a definite answer yet, or what?


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## metagrower (Apr 16, 2008)

kittybitches said:


> so is there a definite answer yet, or what?


Nothing solid really. I mean, we aren't a bunch of scientists, and scientists with access to cannabis apparently don't study this part. Therefore this thread is rife with speculation.


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## bicycle racer (Apr 16, 2008)

no but as far as clones go i know people who have purchased the same clones as me at the same time (grower friends) 1 person will get some herms clearly because of enviroment it seems and 3 of us wont or vice versa. the cannabis genome like some other plants will not let itself die out simply because of lack of plants of opposite sex plants can't change location as some organisms can without pollinating insects or other pollinating species to help with genetic diversity. cannabis generally have less symbiotic insect relationships tham many other species of plants therfore self pollination could be very valuable if needed. inbred plants or any organism tend to be weak and prone to sickness if inbreeding continues so i feel this is a last resort of the plant. so i feel the cannabis species particularly female plants certainly have this ability but this is variable beetween strains of different locals


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## bicycle racer (Apr 16, 2008)

there will likely be no definete answer as people prefer to feel they are right as opposed to learning or discussing. it is unfortunate being that we should be on the same side because we are a minority here as cannabis growers medical or not. unfortunetly this seems to be the general theme very frustraiting


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## metagrower (Apr 16, 2008)

Well, I for one, after reading this thread and checking various other resources that I didn't track because I didn't prepare to present my findings, believe that seeds are predisposed to be one sex over the other; but that a plant can change sex entirely based on environment.

There are common threads throughout the theories surrounding the argument that environment effects sex. Everything that I have read dealing with environment effecting sex suggests that highland plants are more likely to grow males while lowland plants are more likely to grow into females.

Some more research: 
" Although genetic factors dispose a plant to become male or female, environmental factors including the diurnal light cycle can alter sexual expression."
Cannabis sativa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I added the [citation needed] in hopes that someone will soon edit the page and add a citation. That would settle it once and for all. But I think this is enough information to go on, really.


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