# Increasing the THC and CBD levels with Mn and Ir - REALLY?



## Dr. Who (May 1, 2017)

*Metals and organic compounds in the biosynthesis of cannabinoids: a chemometric approach to the analysis of cannabis sativa samples*

I heard about this paper a few years back. I never bothered pay up for the whole paper. I just read a copy from a friend.

It's rather interesting. It's Serbian. The paper's point and goal are covering the ability to use gas chrome testing to place a plant's growing area by correlating the cannabinoid content and the levels of them to the mineral/micro content of the soil they grew in. _*I'll give you a copy of the proper abstract later. - If it causes need for the whole paper. Your going to have to pay for it on your own - sorry.*_

This paper begins by studying the minerals and what cannabinoid they influence. To make a long story short here. They found that CBN, D8 and D9 THC levels are effected by Mn (Manganese) and CBD to be influenced by Ir (Iron).

The more that was present in the soil, by area's that the C. Sativa samples came from. The higher the respective cannabinoid level! This is an interesting find. I began looking into Mn and it's use and supplementation in soil. It seems that for the most part. It is done to cover low levels for woody plants and tree's and bean/grain grops. Arborists and Orchard growers use it. I remember it being used in the greenhouse on ficus....Our farm soils test ok for it so I've never had to broadcast it on any of my fields.
I looked into the amounts they used to get the results they needed. I looked into defs and tox levels and the reactions of the plant to each.

http://nmsp.cals.cornell.edu/publications/factsheets/factsheet49.pdf

I think I have found or figured a safe soil supplementing amount per cubic feet of soil. I am just about to start testing these idea's on some plants in the next round of seed popping.

To attempt any of this, it was needed to figure the form of Mn to be used - Mn sulfate (MnSO4) is the best solution and is used as the MN source of choice in all but a very few gardening use's.

https://www.amazon.com/Manganese-Fertilizer-Greenway-Biotech-Inc/dp/B00G3YU1TC/ref=sr_1_2?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1493643481&sr=1-2&keywords=manganese+sulfate

It would be best to blend this into your soils at build time. Best to add it to the watering of the soil at cooking time.....The rate looks to be 1/4 tsp per cubic foot of soil as being the middle of the road. Don't go by the rates that Palms require! That is too high for our use!

Be aware that you do this only once a year! So re-use is good for a 12 month of use - same time you add your minerals to re-used soils.

I have built my soil for this test already and am just waiting for my seed pop rotation. This has been added to my base soil and to all the others up the line, so the plant sits in the boosted soil all it's life.

This will also be done with base soil and synthetic feeding...

You should keep in mind that Mn and Ir react in plants as one becomes toxic - the other reduces and becomes a def. Proper availability ratio for Mn/Ir is generally considered as 1:2.....Something to keep in mind.

The use of a high organic Ir well water at the soil build will supply enough Ir to cover that aspect if you choose to increase CBD amounts.

It is in all the info I've found that the more organic matter in your soil - the less it uptakes! This alone should be important to organic growers!

*Abstract of the paper:

http://www.fip.org/?page=abstracts&action=generatePdf&item=9875
*
Information on MN. I strongly suggest you read these.

http://www.pthorticulture.com/en/training-center/role-of-manganese-in-plant-culture/
http://www.cropnutrition.com/manganese-in-crop-production
http://plantprobs.net/plant/nutrientImbalances/manganese.html

I wonder if some of these uber high THC percentages we have been seeing lately. Are due to a higher Mn Soil content. 

Going to have to side by side with non-supplemented soil and test for differences......Wondering if this may work.....I think it's worth the try as MnSO4 is cheap.....

Give it a shot and see what you think...


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## cindysid (May 2, 2017)

Very interesting reading! I will be adding it to my soil and watching your progress.


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 2, 2017)

I have read an article on this and when plants were foliar sprayed with the ionic manganese the trichomes increased considerably.

And as an added benefit treated plants with ionic minerals had much better developed roots and stronger more vigorous growth than untreated plants.

I am guessing that the ionic spray does not interfere with uptake like if there was too much manganese in the soil. Which would end up in a deficient plant instead perhaps.

The article said that using water soluble ocean water derived liquid minerals works best.


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## Sureshot2 (May 2, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I have read an article on this and when plants were foliar sprayed with the ionic manganese the trichomes increased considerably.
> 
> And as an added benefit treated plants with ionic minerals had much better developed roots and stronger more vigorous growth than untreated plants.
> 
> ...


This is pretty interesting. Do you remember the name of the article or know what concentrations of ionic manganese they were spraying?


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 2, 2017)

Had to go find this magazine in an old stack.

August/ September 2016 hydrolife I got in a Grow store or dispensary.

It says for more check out the Wide World of Weed on YouTube.

I deal with this by using amended potting soil through veg and a hydro organic 1 part nute with seaweed in it. Not scientific but offers plenty of micro nutrients.

I have not looked into ionic micros yet. But it sure sounds like seaweed extract already would get you there maybe?

Pics of the mag and article.


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## Dr. Who (May 3, 2017)

Ionic ocean minerals

*NOT CHEAP! $37 a qt.
http://products.mercola.com/ionic-ocean-minerals/

$53 a qt
http://www.ag-usa.net/categories.php?cat=7

NOW I FOUND SOMETHING INTERESTING!
$25 a qt and I like this best
http://www.gardenerspantry.ca/sea-minerals-fertilizer.html
*

*
Then there is this - READ IT
http://scienceinhydroponics.com/2010/05/is-oceangrown-fertilizer-scam.html*


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 3, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Ionic ocean minerals
> 
> *NOT CHEAP! $37 a qt.
> http://products.mercola.com/ionic-ocean-minerals/
> ...


Yup. I did read the article in a hydro store mag. Lol

But the research from 2014 still stands. 

I wonder if the iron content in my well water has increased my cbd content and helped with Mrs. MMG' illness.


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## Dr. Who (May 3, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Yup. I did read the article in a hydro store mag. Lol
> 
> But the research from 2014 still stands.
> 
> I wonder if the iron content in my well water has increased my cbd content and helped with Mrs. MMG' illness.


I always called a few products "snake oil" - Superthrive tops that list.....For $25 bucks - I got a new set of plants to add to the "testing" eh?

The soaking seeds thing, looks awful snake oily! I might have to change a strain for it's ease of germination to do that too....More side by side notes! I haven't done much in the way of experiments for a few years - This has me kind of excited! 

MED, on the Ir in your water thing.
I would say that depends on the type of Iron in the well water.....Organic (the most common type) is easier for the soil to breakdown...I run Boron and Greensand Iron removing tanks that are in line before my home softener and my RO units......That's how you really remove organic IR effectively.

I would suspect so - to some point!


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## DaveInCave (May 3, 2017)

By the way, as a former researcher I still have free access to many academic papers, if anyone needs a copy of a paper and can't pay their extortionate prices send me a PM with a DOI and I'll get it for you.

Like most researchers in the world I have a burning hate to traditional science publishers (i.e. anything but PLOS), and their outdated business model.


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## BarnBuster (May 3, 2017)

^^ ++ plus rep


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## Xcoregamerskillz (May 4, 2017)

This is awesome @Dr. Who. Could you do me a favor though and call Iron Fe and not Ir. Ir is Irridium, and I doubt people really want to add that to their soil.


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## Dr. Who (May 5, 2017)

Xcoregamerskillz said:


> This is awesome @Dr. Who. Could you do me a favor though and call Iron Fe and not Ir. Ir is Irridium, and I doubt people really want to add that to their soil.


Damn it, dsylxeai is a bicth......I knew that....really....


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 5, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Damn it, dsylxeai is a bicth......I knew that....really....


You reversed Fe and saw Ir?

Lol.


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## Dr. Who (May 5, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> You reversed Fe and saw Ir?
> 
> Lol.


I brain farted on the abrv. Done that before here too....same thing......mind says xyz - fingers type abc.
Ever notice how many times I edit some of these posts = That's me fixing dyslexic typing...


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## Dr. Who (May 5, 2017)

I get so frustrated sometimes.....I caught myself with the Ir thing some years back......To much of a hurry all the time...Not paying attention properly


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## hillbill (May 5, 2017)

Dyslexia is a bit more than reversing letters, danm it!


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 5, 2017)

hillbill said:


> Dyslexia is a bit more than reversing letters, danm it!


I know that. I thought the smiley would impart the humor. Mrs. MMG is dyslexic even. 

Sorry if I offended hillbill. I seriously from my heart meant no I'll thoughts. 

Sorry @Dr. Who too.


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## hillbill (May 5, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I know that. I thought the smiley would impart the humor. Mrs. MMG is dyslexic even.
> 
> Sorry if I offended hillbill. I seriously from my heart meant no I'll thoughts.
> 
> Sorry @Dr. Who too.


Really thought the thread was about infrared spectrum with the IR. Not offended but it is very real. All is cool!


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## macsnax (May 5, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> I brain farted on the abrv. Done that before here too....same thing......mind says xyz - fingers type abc.
> Ever notice how many times I edit some of these posts = That's me fixing dyslexic typing...


My wife has a touch of dyslexia, sometimes I say shit to her ass backwards so she can understand.


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## hillbill (May 5, 2017)

Full bleed dyslexic here. Some strains are not helpful but then it just makes me grin a little.


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## Dr. Who (May 5, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I know that. I thought the smiley would impart the humor. Mrs. MMG is dyslexic even.
> 
> Sorry if I offended hillbill. I seriously from my heart meant no I'll thoughts.
> 
> Sorry @Dr. Who too.


None Taken!


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## vostok (May 15, 2017)

Conclusion: 
The contents of metals in rhizosphere soil could be an indication of the cannabinoid content. 
This work could *** a contribution in an attempt to determine the geographical origin of
Cannabis sativa plants according to the correlations of metals and organic compounds responsible for cannabinoid production.
(http://www.fip.org/?page=abstracts&action=generatePdf&item=9875)

Finding me..??? by checking the plants for my soils ID????

no chance ...but still a good find

thanks Doc.


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## Chunky Stool (May 16, 2017)

Xcoregamerskillz said:


> This is awesome @Dr. Who. Could you do me a favor though and call Iron Fe and not Ir. Ir is Irridium, and I doubt people really want to add that to their soil.


Fuck! 

Anyone know how to get Irridium out of soil...?


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## dstroy (May 16, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Fuck!
> 
> Anyone know how to get Irridium out of soil...?


I Fe el ya.


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## Heil Tweetler (May 16, 2017)

My understanding is that Fe and Mn should be close. Ive had nice results with both at 100ppm. Pro's tell me that it's wise to bump up Mn just a little bit at a time like 10-20 ppm. I think approaches to leaching iron depend on pH. I dropped Fe ppm's in my 6.5 recycled peat based soil with gypsum. 

The topic in the paper I attached discusses data similar to OP. In this example Mg and K are shown to antagonize potency while Mn and B support THC generation.

Re: Mn. AEA's product Accelerate packs a wallop of Mn without much NPK but with other seaweed and mineral inputs. I've used both Magnesium sulfate and Accelerate with good results. IMO dont even think about this type of action with out a soil test.


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## Dr. Who (May 17, 2017)

Heil Tweetler said:


> My understanding is that Fe and Mn should be close. Ive had nice results with both at 100ppm. Pro's tell me that it's wise to bump up Mn just a little bit at a time like 10-20 ppm. I think approaches to leaching iron depend on pH. I dropped Fe ppm's in my 6.5 recycled peat based soil with gypsum.
> 
> The topic in the paper I attached discusses data similar to OP. In this example Mg and K are shown to antagonize potency while Mn and B support THC generation.
> 
> Re: Mn. AEA's product Accelerate packs a wallop of Mn without much NPK but with other seaweed and mineral inputs. I've used both Magnesium sulfate and Accelerate with good results. IMO dont even think about this type of action with out a soil test.


Interesting paper! Thanks for the pdf!

Nice post.


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## churchhaze (May 17, 2017)

Heil Tweetler said:


> My understanding is that Fe and Mn should be close. Ive had nice results with both at 100ppm. Pro's tell me that it's wise to bump up Mn just a little bit at a time like 10-20 ppm.


Woh.... hold up... Those are toxic levels of both Fe and Mn... 5ppm of Fe is on the high end and 0.5ppm of Mn is plenty. (those are actually the levels i use in mix #21) 2ppm of Mn is the highest I've seen in any recipe. 6.8ppm is the highest I've seen for Fe.

You can't be serious...


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## Heil Tweetler (May 17, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> Woh.... hold up... Those are toxic levels of both Fe and Mn... 5ppm of Fe is on the high end and 0.5ppm of Mn is plenty. (those are actually the levels i use in mix #21) 2ppm of Mn is the highest I've seen in any recipe. 6.8ppm is the highest I've seen for Fe.
> 
> *You can't be serious*...


 Lol No *my friend, you're the joker *~10 ppm Fe toxic??? uh uh come again
Maybe we are using different scales. I'll post up my soil report from spectrum analytic. Pretty sure the ppms are 104 Fe 94 Mn. The pH is 6.3ish. It produces huge flowers, zero pest pressure, no mold issues, sweet smooth flavor and fragrance.(using the 13.5/10.5 schedule I learned from you)

These values are from a recycled, peat based mix that I test at least 1x per year. I have some old reports to compare.


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## Heil Tweetler (May 17, 2017)

Samples are from same mix about 16 months apart.

Spectrum Analytics

 
Logan labs


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## churchhaze (May 18, 2017)

Well good luck with that... I thought you were talking about the reservoir solution in hydro, not the medium (soil).


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## NoFucks2Give (May 18, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> It would be best to blend this into your soils at build time.





MichiganMedGrower said:


> when plants were foliar sprayed with the ionic manganese the trichomes increased considerably.


The Cornell paper said: "_Band application or foliar application of Mn fertilizer can eliminate Mn deficiency while broadcast application of Mn to soil is not cost effective and therefore not recommended_"

The Amazon ad you linked to said "_Most Efficient When Applied as a Foliar Application_".

*Band Application *from: https://courses.cit.cornell.edu/css412/mod5/ext_m5_pg4.htm
Fertilizer can be placed in a "band" often 2 inches over and 2 inches down from the seed during corn planting or drilling small grains or forage seedings. Since it's done in the same motion as planting, it's also called a "starter" application (i.e. to help "start" the plant off). The band is close enough to efficiently supply the young plants with nutrients, while not so close as to damage the developing roots through salt burns. Check out the diagram, below.


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 18, 2017)

NoFucks2Give said:


> The Cornell paper said: "_Band application or foliar application of Mn fertilizer can eliminate Mn deficiency while broadcast application of Mn to soil is not cost effective and therefore not recommended_"
> 
> The Amazon ad you linked to said "_Most Efficient When Applied as a Foliar Application_".


The article I posted is an really an advertisement for some mineral foliar spray. Not sure why everybody is liking the paper. 

I put it up to show that there has been 1 test published on this and a "doctor" already sells a product based on it. 

The idea that it one or another element is key or adding something extra will make more thc is ludicrous. Balance is key for life to thrive. 

Maybe I should produce MMG's super fantastic marijuana booster spray. Pure "ionic" water in a special mister that lubricates and adds vigor and helps nutrients mobilize and become effective. 

Water. Spray it on your plants and see them flourish. Proven by professional Horticulturists. 

Lol.


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## NoFucks2Give (May 18, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Not sure why everybody is liking the paper.


I doubt anyone is reading the paper or liking it. Any response, at least on my part, is about the OP not the paper.
I quoted you becasue you mentioned _foliar _. 
I see no issue with foliar application. In 1976 I had five plants which were fertilized once a week with a foliar application of Miracle Grow. It worked very well. 



Dr. Who said:


> It would be best to blend this into your soils at build time.


My reply was in response to possibly using the wrong application method.


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 18, 2017)

NoFucks2Give said:


> I doubt anyone is reading the paper or liking it. Any response, at least on my part, is about the OP not the paper.
> I quoted you becasue you mentioned _foliar _.
> I see no issue with foliar application. In 1976 I had five plants which were fertilized once a week with a foliar application of Miracle Grow. It worked very well.
> 
> ...



Got ya. 

I never foliar feed indoors to avoid the mess but I do understand it works very well. A micro nute foliar could be very beneficial. 

It's the article that mentions foliar I was repeating. It leads to an ad for ionic spray micro nutrients. 

And it was only 4 people liking the article posted. Just felt like more. Lol. 

I learned dyna Grow is testing for a cannabis fertilizer now. That will be interesting to see I think. They will know the right elements and ratios. 

The rest of this seems like profiteering to me. Plants adapt. And they only need what they need. They even can transfer photosynthesis to any light spectrum available. They can even substitute salt for potassium if neccesary. So trying to flood them with a "Magic" element to get better results is not effective. And will likely cause other nutrient antagonism. They prefer balance and variety in small doses in my experience.


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## Dr. Who (May 19, 2017)

NoFucks2Give said:


> I doubt anyone is reading the paper or liking it. Any response, at least on my part, is about the OP not the paper.
> I quoted you becasue you mentioned _foliar _.
> I see no issue with foliar application. In 1976 I had five plants which were fertilized once a week with a foliar application of Miracle Grow. It worked very well.
> 
> ...


That would be most true for outdoor applications.

Yet Arborists do exactly that for longer term availability to tree's. The problem with many trees needing it is the tree being in the wrong area for Mn. Many area's around the country lack the proper Mn concentrations for some trees needs. Palms require a surprisingly _high_ amount of Mn. If that amount was available in the soil that we grow in. It _would be _a toxic amount to most plants we grow, including MJ. The only way to apply Mn for use by palms _is_ soil by supplementation! If you cross reference that by Arborist notices by major universities. The way for all tree supplementation is also by soil application.

I give my point - regarding container soils! After all, your adding such a minor amound! At build time - add the Mn by putting it in your wetting. I do my FUL-HUMIX at the wetting, so why not add that 1/2 tsp per cft to that. Thing is with a foliar application. Your going to have to use a very, very small amount of Mn and risk of a tox problem is down right probable.....The product MMG refers to is desalinated, and concentrated ocean water.......Sounds rather snake oily to me.....

Bottom line is that soil amending is the way I would try......Not like it's expensive to give it a shot anyway.....

There are people who try anything to increase potency. I supplied this one, because there is actual science behind it.

Try it or not but, I feel you did not research the application of Mn for plant use by supplementation enough.

Opinion is opinion though. So your post is noted.

My reply is on my chosen application method and why......


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## Dr. Who (May 19, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Not sure why everybody is liking the paper.
> The idea that it one or another element is key or adding something extra will make more thc is ludicrous. Balance is key for life to thrive.


REALLY?

After being given a paper on the subject and backed up by another members posting of another paper that not only backs up the subject but that he has had success with? He even includes what he's used and had that success with.

What a single compound can do for plants should be noted by what leaving a single compound out would do.....

This post = 



Heil Tweetler said:


> My understanding is that Fe and Mn should be close. Ive had nice results with both at 100ppm. Pro's tell me that it's wise to bump up Mn just a little bit at a time like 10-20 ppm. I think approaches to leaching iron depend on pH. I dropped Fe ppm's in my 6.5 recycled peat based soil with gypsum.
> 
> The topic in the paper I attached discusses data similar to OP. In this example Mg and K are shown to antagonize potency while Mn and B support THC generation.
> 
> Re: Mn. AEA's product Accelerate packs a wallop of Mn without much NPK but with other seaweed and mineral inputs. I've used both Magnesium sulfate and Accelerate with good results. IMO dont even think about this type of action with out a soil test.



I saw that about the relationship between the Mn and the FE in arborist publications on amending outdoor soils for tree's with def's.
I should have posted something about that.

Yet the info you give is golden in that respect......Again, nice posting on that!


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 19, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> REALLY?
> 
> After being given a paper on the subject and backed up by another members posting of another paper that not only backs up the subject but that he has had success with? He even includes what he's used and had that success with.
> 
> ...


No man. You took my quote out of context. I was referring to the paper I posted. The ad article for the snake oil. Not your link and the other one from Cornell.


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## Dr. Who (May 19, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> No man. You took my quote out of context. I was referring to the paper I posted. The ad article for the snake oil. Not your link and the other one from Cornell.


OK, OK - I gotcha! Yuppers I did!......Sorry......

Take care,, gotta go and sit in a tractor for some long hrs......


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## NoFucks2Give (May 19, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> I feel you did not research the application of Mn for plant use by supplementation enough.


Your are correct. I did zero research and know nothing about how to apply Mn. I only looked at the content you posted, and wrote what was in the content regarding application. Then did a search for "band application" and posted the diagram from another Cornell document. 

The key word was "possibly" when I said the method was "possibly incorrect" . I used "possibly" explicitly because I did not want to say you were wrong. The Cornell document in your post did not include blending or mixing. 

I considered getting some of the Mn sulfate on Amazon as a food additive because I think my diet needs more Mn.


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## Dr. Who (May 20, 2017)

NoFucks2Give said:


> Your are correct. I did zero research and know nothing about how to apply Mn. I only looked at the content you posted, and wrote what was in the content regarding application. Then did a search for "band application" and posted the diagram from another Cornell document.
> 
> The key word was "possibly" when I said the method was "possibly incorrect" . I used "possibly" explicitly because I did not want to say you were wrong. The Cornell document in your post did not include blending or mixing.
> 
> I considered getting some of the Mn sulfate on Amazon as a food additive because I think my diet needs more Mn.


Cool. Eat more trout and spinach, those have the highest natural Mn content. Fish or leafy greens is the basic answer.


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## Chunky Stool (May 20, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Cool. Eat more trout and spinach, those have the highest natural Mn content. Fish or leafy greens is the basic answer.


So can we conclude that fish meal has higher levels of Mn? I recently began adding fish bone and crab meal to my mixes. Too early to say how well it works, but so far my plants are digging it.
Initially I had been avoiding it because the shit stinks -- especially crab. I was amazed how quickly the smell disappeared once the soil was mixed.


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## NoFucks2Give (May 20, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Eat more trout and spinach


I know it's off topic but it's my issues with accuracy that got me here. Trout chimes in at #800 in Mn content according to the USDA database of foods. Spinach, #228. 

Mn is arguably the most difficult essential mineral for a diet to acquire RDA without supplements. 

And tying things back into the topic, possibly this is why it's important to supplement a plant diet with Mn. 

I wrote an app using the USDA Foods Database.
http://www.pizzasoftware.com/m/food.php 

Check the checkbox at the top of the Mn column.


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## Chunky Stool (May 20, 2017)

Could we also conclude that blood meal would be a good source of N if you also want extra iron???
I've been debating using blood meal in nute tea. it is *very* soluble.
Right now I'm hooked on peruvian seabird guana, but I'm starting to run low...


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## Heil Tweetler (May 21, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Could we also conclude that blood meal would be a good source of N if you also want extra iron???
> I've been debating using blood meal in nute tea. it is *very* soluble.
> Right now I'm hooked on peruvian seabird guana, but I'm starting to run low...


Have your soil tested to be sure iron will be beneficial. If you have a high organic matter soil, iron is constantly being made available through reduction. 

Iron oxide solubilization by organic matter and its effect on iron availabilityBuy options
Plant and Soil

January 1991, Volume 130, Issue 1, pp 27–34

*Iron oxide solubilization by organic matter and its effect on iron availability*

Authors
Authors and affiliations

W. L. Lindsay

1.
Article
DOI: 10.1007/BF00011852

Cite this article as:
Lindsay, W.L. Plant Soil (1991) 130: 27. doi:10.1007/BF00011852

39Citations

247Downloads
*Abstract*
The solubility of Fe in soils is largely controlled by Fe oxides; ferrihydrite, amorphous ferric hydroxide, and soil-Fe are generally believed to exert the major control. Fe(III) hydrolysis species constitute the major Fe species in solution. Other inorganic Fe complexes are present, but their concentrations are much less than the hydrolysis species. Organic complexes of Fe including those of organic acids like citrate, oxalate, and malate contribute slightly to increased Fe solubility in acid soils, but not in alkaline soils.

The most important influence that organic matter has on the solubilization of Fe is through reduction. Respiration of organic matter creates reduction microsites in soil where Fe2+ concentrations increase above those of the Fe(III) hydrolysis species. Fluctuating redox conditions in these microsites are conducive to the formation of a mixed valency ferrosic hydroxide. This metastable precipitate maintains an elevated level of soluble inorganic Fe for prolonged periods and increases Fe availability to plants. The release of reducing agents and acids next to roots, as well as the production of siderophores by microorganisms within the rhizosphere, contribute to the solubilization and increased availability of Fe to plants.


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## dynospec (May 21, 2017)

just read this yesterday aswell, pretty neat. I always ensure my plants get their dose of micros, just seems wrong not to


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## Dr. Who (May 21, 2017)

Heil Tweetler said:


> Have your soil tested to be sure iron will be beneficial. If you have a high organic matter soil, iron is constantly being made available through reduction.
> 
> Iron oxide solubilization by organic matter and its effect on iron availabilityBuy options
> Plant and Soil
> ...



Well put!

If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water....It takes a Boron or green sand pre-filter to remove it properly!

P.S. - While poorly worded in that original post...I still like some higher K levels in my feeds -  

Your dutiful testing of soils has me paying attention...... Whats that running you where you are, or are you having the FDA do the testing like farm soils?


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## Budley Doright (May 21, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Well put!
> 
> If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water....It takes a Boron or green sand pre-filter to remove it properly!
> 
> ...


Could you explain what organic iron is. Just getting in to water filter equipment and never heard that term used.


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## Dr. Who (May 22, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Could you explain what organic iron is. Just getting in to water filter equipment and never heard that term used.


@Heil Tweetler 

It's also known as Ferrous Iron or "clearwater iron". The one that's hard to get out. Generally it doesn't bind to the resin grains well and the part that does - doesn't salt wash back off well....

Boron pre-filters used to be popular but, needed to be replaced every 3 years or so (not cheap). Depending on your Iron concentrations.
Now popular is magnesium greensand as an Ferrous Iron "filter". It requires only moderate back-washing and is "regenerated" with potassium permanganate at rates of around 1.75 oz per cft of greensand.... I have high Ferrous content and do that every year.

There are a cpl other methods that can be used but, don't work as well, are more costly and can require up to 2 extra full size tanks.

That help guys?


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## Budley Doright (May 22, 2017)

Yup just never heard it called organic iron, just iron lol. I was thinking you were referring to iron bacteria, another nasty .


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 22, 2017)

I thought it was called soluble iron. And there can be iron eating bacteria complicating matters. 

Sulfer can be the same way in well water. The bacteria eating and exuding is what smells like rotten eggs. 

My water causes light but noticeable iron stains. 

But it is manageable through watering with good runoff. Pretty high ppm containing water can be too. Mine is only .3 ec.


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## Dr. Who (May 22, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Yup just never heard it called organic iron, just iron lol. I was thinking you were referring to iron bacteria, another nasty .


It's an old school term. Some water softener makers still use it.....



MichiganMedGrower said:


> I thought it was called soluble iron. And there can be iron eating bacteria complicating matters.
> 
> Sulfer can be the same way in well water. The bacteria eating and exuding is what smells like rotten eggs.
> 
> ...


Bacterial iron is nasty shit! Slime at fixtures and filters is a sure sign. The use of chlorine to backwash into the aquaphor and heavy carbon filtration is needed with it......This method is bad for the environment and there are larger chlorine tank systems that preclude that. Thankfully it's not common!

The other form is Ferric iron....This is the "brown water" type of iron......They do an oxidation and precipitation step with this form. Still leaves some changed to the Ferris and that goes through your system so that's the FE you taste if you have an Iron water taste and a water "softener". Water softeners are to soften water from various mineral compounds like the Ca family over metal compounds. 
This is part of why you really need another step for removing iron types...


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 22, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> It's an old school term. Some water softener makers still use it.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good thing the previous owners had a deep well drilled here. And a nice jet pump installed. The water is pretty much ideal for gardens. The small iron buildup hurts nothing and there is only a few ppm of sulfer eating bacteria so they get plenty of soluble micronutes each watering.

I use no filter for the garden. I use an ro filter for the humidifier to avoid bacteria. And calcium and iron buildup. Lots of it gets caught in the prefilter.


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## ANC (May 22, 2017)

NoFucks2Give said:


> I know it's off topic but it's my issues with accuracy that got me here. Trout chimes in at #800 in Mn content according to the USDA database of foods. Spinach, #228.
> 
> Mn is arguably the most difficult essential mineral for a diet to acquire RDA without supplements.
> 
> ...


You have to look at each plant unless you are using clones.
I am running an experiment using seeds from the same flower.
They were all planted into grow bags filled from the same batch of coco coir mix.
One of them is an Mg and potassium whore. I would chuck it, but it is a fast grower, I'd like to see what it plans to do with the extra nutrients.


----------



## Dr. Who (May 22, 2017)

ANC said:


> You have to look at each plant unless you are using clones.
> I am running an experiment using seeds from the same flower.
> They were all planted into grow bags filled from the same batch of coco coir mix.
> One of them is an Mg and potassium whore. I would chuck it, but it is a fast grower, I'd like to see what it plans to do with the extra nutrients.


Goes to say that "single flowers" seeds ares still differing pheno's.

Got 8 distinct pheno's out of an F1 breeding result. That was from the first 12 beans popped - 4 males and 8 females. All the females grew out distinctly different = 8 pheno's.


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## ANC (May 22, 2017)

I think many of the "purple" strains we see just eat through potassium like a fat kid through a chocolate factory.
It is one of the nutrients that can be depleted the fastest, maybe 2 or 3 days from application.
That does not mean you need to slap a bunch on, as that will lead to magnesium lockout. But instead, you need to amend the soil or medium on an ongoing basis


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## Budley Doright (May 22, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> It's an old school term. Some water softener makers still use it.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Open the back of your toilet and if it's got a black slime ..... yup you've got the slime, lots around here have it and I actually get the odd 5 gallon pail of 35% H2O2 from a guy that uses injection, otherwise buying the stuff is like buying plutonium here lol.


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## Heil Tweetler (May 22, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Well put!
> 
> If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water....It takes a Boron or green sand pre-filter to remove it properly!
> 
> ...


Spectrum analytic tests are about 25. I work with an agronimist. The package he told me to use was $53. Previous tests with logan and Intl ag lab were about the same.

Re K. I consult with farmers and have been a life long gardener. Most of the farmers i work with and almost all of the MJ gardeners I discuss plant health with, agree that high K is a quality killer. I understand that it can drive highest yields. But it certainly doesn't drive highest nutritional content. I doubt it drives best genetic expression either. 

This site is packed with info https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 22, 2017)

Heil Tweetler said:


> Spectrum analytic tests are about 25. I work with an agronimist. The package he told me to use was $53. Previous tests with logan and Intl ag lab were about the same.
> 
> Re K. I consult with farmers and have been a life long gardener. Most of the farmers i work with and almost all of the MJ gardeners I discuss plant health with, agree that high K is a quality killer. I understand that it can drive highest yields. But it certainly doesn't drive highest nutritional content. I doubt it drives best genetic expression either.
> 
> This site is packed with info https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/



I have found what you say to be true in my limited experience even. I ditched the bloom bottle last year and only use a pretty balanced grow ratio and my yield and quality has gone up considerably. 

I use amended soil and well water to be sure of plenty minerals available. 

And the sativa leaning phenos can take 12 weeks sometimes and have souring long lasting highs. 

And the smells and flavors are better too.


----------



## Dr. Who (May 22, 2017)

Heil Tweetler said:


> Spectrum analytic tests are about 25. I work with an agronimist. The package he told me to use was $53. Previous tests with logan and Intl ag lab were about the same.
> 
> Re K. I consult with farmers and have been a life long gardener. Most of the farmers i work with and almost all of the MJ gardeners I discuss plant health with, agree that high K is a quality killer. I understand that it can drive highest yields. But it certainly doesn't drive highest nutritional content. I doubt it drives best genetic expression either.
> 
> This site is packed with info https://www.spectrumanalytic.com/


First off, meant to say USDA. 

Your correct. Use of extra K does add yield, if done right. I like to add a cpl of points in bloom after the 2nd week. Minor P increase and reduce some later. Use of more K late can influence color expression in plants that are able. Higher K in veg? Haven't found that to be exactly productive down the road.....Years ago when I was experimenting with finding my "best's" with differing synthetic ratio's. Found the line between good and overdose to be very fine, as once you go over. the plants stunt's and a clear sign is color expression in veg. Once you get that, too late!

As for MJ and reducing quality....Just started some experimenting with specific synthetic lines again. Friends and others in our little Co-op have done some eyeopening work with them. Thought I might give synthetic a shot again....May have to do some at what I _liked_ to supplement to and not From the past synthetic use. Test the difference and see...

For the most part, build my soils (organic water only's) to recipes that came from years of building them. Your quoted amounts/methods (for Mn and Fe) and the testing has me rather interested in actually testing my different bloom formulas out. I could learn a lot from actually doing that. Being satisfied with what has been achieved, never sits well if I think I might do better....

I farm but, it's organic and don't express any supplementation of K in any of the tea's or mineral applications done to the soil. Our soils tend to be a tic over in K from normal/surrounding farm lands anyway (in USDA tests). In the final year of certification on the "new" dairy farm to the co-op. We set that up for the organic manure for use in other locations due to the cost/water reductions and other benefits of some moving away (somewhat) from AACT's.

Never much of a flower grower per-say, More of a tropical interest. Learning the ins and outs of succulents from seed....Something new to me..... My wife has absconded with some of my used and not replenished MJ soils for use with some of her squash and tomato's as an up-pot this year. You could see the very early coloring and when they went out. Got that classic light tan edge necrosis that signals K tox, after she put them out into full sun.....She came in and asked what happened. Took one look and told her that was from the increase in transpiration and there for the increase in up-take of the available nutrient in the soil.

Looked at her and said, "Now you understand why I told you not to use that soil for veggies? That soil has higher med./slow release P&K then you needed.....? It's about all that's left in that soil after the Long running Sativa's that were in it.... As soon as you added your first feeding, you over did the K....

So, anyway. This and your information have me looking to do some tests on fresh, used and re-amended soils to see exactly where those are.....I'll be better able to re-amend that way.....

All these years and I didn't think to try that......You've taught an old dog a trick he didn't consider. Even for a farmer...

Damn local USDA branch closed too.....I'll have to send to labs.....Might try friends at my college too....

GREAT INPUT!


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## churchhaze (May 22, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Could you explain what organic iron is. Just getting in to water filter equipment and never heard that term used.


For starters, hemoglobin.







ferredoxins.








Dr. Who said:


> If someone is using well water. FE contents are to be watched. Having the water tested out is a big thing! Organic Iron is the most common type of FE in water..


For crying out loud... it's *Fe* not FE.


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 22, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> First off, meant to say USDA.
> 
> Your correct. Use of extra K does add yield, if done right. I like to add a cpl of points in bloom after the 2nd week. Minor P increase and reduce some later. Use of more K late can influence color expression in plants that are able. Higher K in veg? Haven't found that to be exactly productive down the road.....Years ago when I was experimenting with finding my "best's" with differing synthetic ratio's. Found the line between good and overdose to be very fine, as once you go over. the plants stunt's and a clear sign is color expression in veg. Once you get that, too late!
> 
> ...


How does Potassium affect color?


----------



## Budley Doright (May 22, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> For starters, hemoglobin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is there a filter for hemoglobin? Geesh.


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## churchhaze (May 22, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Is there a filter for hemoglobin? Geesh.


I'm talking about blood meal. Either way, in hydro, I use FeDTPA.


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 22, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Is there a filter for hemoglobin? Geesh.


I was going to say it's your liver.


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## Budley Doright (May 23, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> I'm talking about blood meal. Either way, in hydro, I use FeDTPA.


We were talking about well water but sure ok thankyou. lol.


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## churchhaze (May 23, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> We were talking about well water but sure ok thankyou. lol.


That's what organic iron is. What comes out of wells is inorganic (rust). Don't be stupid.


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## Budley Doright (May 23, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> That's what organic iron is. What comes out of wells is inorganic (rust). Don't be stupid.


That's why I asked about the organic iron in the first place. Your just a very angry, unhappy person aren't you lol.


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## churchhaze (May 23, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> That's why I asked about the organic iron in the first place. Your just a very angry, unhappy person aren't you lol.


Yes, you did ask about organic iron, and that's when I posted some examples. Go up and like the post answering your question, ass. It's not me acting unhappy. It's you acting like a jerk.



Budley Doright said:


> *Could you explain what organic iron is*.





Budley Doright said:


> We were talking about well water but sure ok thankyou. lol.


----------



## Dr. Who (May 23, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> How does Potassium affect color?


Higher K levels help express natural coloring abilities in plants. It sure works in ours too....


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 23, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Higher K levels help express natural coloring abilities in plants. It sure works in ours too....


Damn! Want to know why?

I have not come across this thing you say.


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 23, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Higher K levels help express natural coloring abilities in plants. It sure works in ours too....


Here is pretty much the information I have found. 

http://www.extension.umn.edu/agriculture/nutrient-management/potassium/potassium-for-crop-production/

The only color effect is halfway down the article. There is a pic of a potato plant with purpling edges. It is deficient of K. 

Colors are expressing in my garden from fuller spectrum lighting and maybe uv and definitely temp but potassium in the luxery zone promotes photosynthesis and enzyme production. Wouldn't that promote green?


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## Dr. Who (May 23, 2017)

Read about the effect years ago.
I have experienced it first hand and in many strains. Time and time again, for years.....Notes of the early attempts/results are from the late 80's...

In temp use to express - it hastens and increases the cool temp effect. That's from personal experience and in my old notes. I've seen it work outdoors too!

Book learn'in ain't everything MMG.

PS In veg, if it happens, it still makes the plant express more in bloom. Still, it's stunting of the plant negates that whole thing. This came about by an oversight in a soil build once.......I spread it out in the veggie garden to get rid of it. Got colorful Brussel sprouts that year! Kale expressed some and the tomato's stems were purple to a point - early on. Did feel the overall yield of the Brussels was less though!


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## Budley Doright (May 23, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> Yes, you did ask about organic iron, and that's when I posted some examples. Go up and like the post answering your question, ass. It's not me acting unhappy. It's you acting like a jerk.


Oh I'm sorry, I didn't "like" your post, opps.


----------



## Chunky Stool (May 23, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Read about the effect years ago.
> I have experienced it first hand and in many strains. Time and time again, for years.....Notes of the early attempts/results are from the late 80's...
> 
> In temp use to express - it hastens and increases the cool temp effect. That's from personal experience and in my old notes. I've seen it work outdoors too!
> ...


I'm using extra K on a purple strain that is vegging outdoors. No color expression yet.
Organic soil w/regular doses of nutrient tea. I've been alternating between two recipes: (5 gal bucket)
*High Octane*
1/2 cup humic acid concentrate
1/2 cup Peruvian seabird guano (12-11-2)
2 tbsp Maxi Crop seaweed powder (0-0-17)

*Mean Green*
1/2 cup humic acid concentrate
1/3 cup alfalfa meal (2.5-0.5-2.5)
1/3 cup kelp meal (1-0-2)
1/4 cup bat guano (0-7-0)
2 tbsp epsom


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## MichiganMedGrower (May 23, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Read about the effect years ago.
> I have experienced it first hand and in many strains. Time and time again, for years.....Notes of the early attempts/results are from the late 80's...
> 
> In temp use to express - it hastens and increases the cool temp effect. That's from personal experience and in my old notes. I've seen it work outdoors too!
> ...


I get way more color with balanced nutes. Too much K yellows plants. You say this all the time. And I know it to be true.

I never said book learning was everything. I said I want to know why.

Unless you have found out why. You are just speculating no matter how many times you think you see the results of what you did.

There are no known processes that support your theory.

And doesn't it figure the "sulfer feeds trichs" guy liked the comment where you get to say what you think is true even when completely unfounded. And regardless of your time spent its un proven.

And the persons feelings about their investment in time has more to do with their arguments then science.

All I have ever said is I want to know the mode of action. It's only growers that don't know saying things back like "book learnin' ain't everything"

You have to find the mode of action is if you want to say it's true.

Plants need the balance they need of all of the elements to thrive. That is why they take many tissue samples and just formulate the proper fertilizer for them.

These tissue samples appear in a few famous cannabis books and soon the info will be common knowledge.

Dyna Grow is doing this on multiple strains. I assume jacks did for their new products.

They will know for sure all the true facts about all this forum and hobbiests speculation soon enough with all the companies and government testing with cannabis out in the open.

And then we will really have cannabis specific nutes and know for sure what they like.

And and your comment about if it happens in veg proves that you were flowering deficient in K a bit.

Veg is everything to proper results. The plant will always translocate its nutrients to build new tissue and the more stored in veg properly the better.

You guys keep pretending to discredit my questions so you can stick to your own answers whether they are true or not.

I start every time by asking questions. I have not even made any claims. Just barely ever get a real answer unless I research elsewhere.


----------



## churchhaze (May 23, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Oh I'm sorry, I didn't "like" your post, opps.


You're welcome.


----------



## churchhaze (May 23, 2017)

I exposed his cult leader as a con artist and now he's mad at me, obviously.


----------



## Budley Doright (May 23, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> It's not about whether you like _my _post or not. It's just your attitude in general... You asked a question, and then acted like a dick when you got an answer. When you ask a question and someone answers correctly, the proper thing to do is to thank them.
> 
> You're welcome.


Look we were talking about well water and given that you seem like an intelligent person you would know that your answer had nothing to do with well water and then yup, as usual you revert to your angry self and start calling me stupid, that's ok, I understand, your a lonely old, angry man, sorry for that.


----------



## Budley Doright (May 23, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> I exposed his cult leader as a con artist and now he's mad at me, obviously.


Cult leader ..... who would that be? RM I presume.......well you may want to review my posts re @RM3, we hardly agree on anything really but I don't get all angry about it, for each his own is my motto. Have you recently had a stroke? They sometimes make people angry and confused.


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## churchhaze (May 23, 2017)

Budley Doright said:


> Look we were talking about well water and given that you seem like an intelligent person you would know that *your answer had nothing to do with well water* and then yup, as usual you revert to your angry self and start calling me stupid, that's ok, I understand, your a lonely old, angry man, sorry for that.





Budley Doright said:


> *Could you explain what organic iron is*


Organic iron is iron found in an organic molecule like hemoglobin or ferredoxins.. Question answered. You then put 1+1 together and realized that your well water isn't bloody and determined that unless there is organic matter in your well, all the iron it provides is inorganic.


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## Budley Doright (May 23, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> Organic iron is iron found in an organic molecule like hemoglobin or ferredoxins.. Question answered. You then put 1+1 together and realized that your well water isn't bloody and determined that unless there is organic matter in your well, all the iron it provides is inorganic.


And once again we were talking about water filters, you forgot to add the rest of the quote I think, yup confused huh. Don't you have somewhere else to be angry and egotistical? .


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## Budley Doright (May 23, 2017)

My hasn't this thread turned a corner lol.


----------



## Chunky Stool (May 23, 2017)

Oh for fucks sake, shut up already...


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## churchhaze (May 24, 2017)

So, has anyone here actually experimented with different levels of Fe and Mn and observed noticeable changes? (besides me of course..)

I have a suggestion... A good start would be to go get some FeDTPA, MnSO4, and a milligram scale... Just saying... Stop trying to do these experiments organically... You can control the level of all elements almost perfectly with hydro, which is how I know my mix #21 is 5ppm Fe and 0.5ppm Mn in the first place. I set those 2 elements are at those concentrations for a reason. Things have changed a lot since Mix #1 in 2009. Many insights were gained, particularly on the concentration of Fe..

I suppose nobody actually cares about the effects of varying levels of Fe and Mn.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 24, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> So, has anyone here actually experimented with different levels of Fe and Mn and observed noticeable changes? (besides me of course..)
> 
> I have a suggestion... A good start would be to go get some FeDTPA, MnSO4, and a milligram scale... Just saying... Stop trying to do these experiments organically... You can control the level of all elements almost perfectly with hydro, which is how I know my mix #21 is 5ppm Fe and 0.5ppm Mn in the first place. I set those 2 elements are at those concentrations for a reason. Things have changed a lot since Mix #1 in 2009. Many insights were gained, particularly on the concentration of Fe..
> 
> I suppose nobody actually cares about the effects of varying levels of Fe and Mn.



I would like to hear your findings if you don't mind posting them.


----------



## Dr. Who (May 24, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I get way more color with balanced nutes. Too much K yellows plants. You say this all the time. And I know it to be true.
> 
> I never said book learning was everything. I said I want to know why.
> 
> ...


Getting testy for what reason? I'm not discrediting your question. Not on purpose!

I find it to be a factor. It has been for years and tried it many ways. I don't care "why", It just works. It's good enough for me, and I'm not interested in proving any "why". I'm not writing a book or doing research to publish a paper. 

Just to say, The plants that got the high K in veg. Did not have low K in bloom. I don't understand your statement on that - It was a mistaken soil build......The available K in the soil was way high! 

I have not gotten yellowing from high K, high P use - you betcha....

Bottom line is that I increase the K by like 3 points in bloom (on some strains).
The environment is a constant, 71 - 74 deg. 40- 45 % Rh (40 is the set point and it rides to about +5 to fire)
I run 1 K HPS with 400w of Merc Vapor set just under the hood.

I have _found_ that for me running the extra 3 points. Has increased the amount of natural coloring in those strains that will express coloring. Anthocyanin increase by what action? Some strains more then others. Examples would be Ghost OG and an early diesel.
If they do not get the 3 points, they in no way color like if I do. So then, what would you conclude from that if it was happening in your garden?

It simply caught my attention years ago and continue to use the find to my ends.

Don't get so "huffy". I'm not calling anyone anything and sure not attacking anyone. 

K is known to influence many things in blooming flowers and fruits - K is vital to several areas of plant growth, including drought tolerance, disease resistance, stem strength, improved texture, color and flavor of fruits, and photosynthesis.


Fair enough?


----------



## Dr. Who (May 24, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> I'm using extra K on a purple strain that is vegging outdoors. No color expression yet.
> Organic soil w/regular doses of nutrient tea. I've been alternating between two recipes: (5 gal bucket)
> *High Octane*
> 1/2 cup humic acid concentrate
> ...



Oh, you'll know when the plant gets too much - it'll show you just fine


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 24, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Getting testy for what reason? I'm not discrediting your question. Not on purpose!
> 
> I find it to be a factor. It has been for years and tried it many ways. I don't care "why", It just works. It's good enough for me, and I'm not interested in proving any "why". I'm not writing a book or doing research to publish a paper.
> 
> ...



From the information written I would conclude the room is a bit cold and a bit dry for the lighting and that K uptake is such that adding more gives you the results you want. 

My opinion why. Is that the plants start to slowly lock out K at the roots and then photosynthesis is compromised some and the other colors start to show. 

I have been focusing on observing what slight deficiencies and toxicities show on the plants. 

My comment was about the other post though. It had too many variables to determine what did what. And the cold could have easily been the main factor. 

I did just ask why you thought the K was the culprit first. It's frustrating to get an answer sometimes. 

And now you have answered with more information to go on.  

No one but beginners are ever going to risk their results on someone's word of their observations alone. 

Well I hope that to be a mostly true statement. 

This stuff is very serious for me. I studied for 2 years day and night before even planting my first seed. 

And observed from inside the industry since I was a teenager. 

I look at it like it's greenhouse production and nothing can go wrong or I go out of business. 

I'm sorry if you view me so controversial about people's observions. It's not personal at all. I am more interested to weed out enough info to see what's really going on. 

And if we present theories we will always have debate. 

I hope.


----------



## churchhaze (May 24, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I would like to hear your findings if you don't mind posting them.


Well I wasn't looking for whether Fe increases CBD and Mn increases THC and these are observations only, not actual experiments.

What I noticed is that under high light intensity, iron deficiency is a lot more common. I've tried levels between 4ppm iron and 10ppm iron (Hoagland formula has Fe of anywhere between 1-5ppm) and used to use commercial mixes like GH flora. I've never experienced any of the light bleaching symptoms under high intensity light with any of my formulas and I suspect this is because of most commercial formulas are just on the borderline of causing deficiencies in Fe. FeDTPA is one of the more expensive ingredients. I started with too much iron in my first formulas (10ppm) and halfed it over time and saw no deficiencies or slowing of growth.

As for Mn, my experience was basically using 0.5ppm for a long time, noticing some other popular formulas used 2.0ppm... so I tried it... I didn't know what I was looking for and didn't notice any difference. I lowed it back to 0.5ppm and didn't notice any deficiencies.

My method of designing formulas is basically to get rid of what's not needed.. If 5ppm Fe doesn't cause iron deficiency under any conditions, it shouldn't be 10ppm. (unless this theory of excess iron causing CBD is true) If 0.5ppm Mn doesn't cause Mn deficiency under any condition, it shouldn't be 2ppm. (unless the theory of excess Mn causing higher levels of THC is true). A good formula is balanced so the plant gets everything it needs.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 24, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> Well I wasn't looking for whether Fe increases CBD and Mn increases THC and these are observations only, not actual experiments.
> 
> What I noticed is that under high light intensity, iron deficiency is a lot more common. I've tried levels between 4ppm iron and 10ppm iron (Hoagland formula has Fe of anywhere between 1-5ppm) and used to use commercial mixes like GH flora. I've never experienced any of the light bleaching symptoms under high intensity light with any of my formulas and I suspect this is because of most commercial formulas are just on the borderline of causing deficiencies in Fe. FeDTPA is one of the more expensive ingredients. I started with too much iron in my first formulas (10ppm) and halfed it over time and saw no deficiencies or slowing of growth.
> 
> ...


My observations match this iron info exactly. 

My old house had .2 ec filtered well water and showed no iron build up at all. I only used bottled nutes and would show deficiencies without upping nute strength. Higher ec no iron deficiency. (Or calcium)

New house has unfiltered .3 ec deep well water that does show a bit of iron buildup. I grow larger plants in the same pots with the same nutes and have no deficiency. 

I grew under properly sized hps in both houses. More intensity now. 

Not scientific but the bleaching and light deformed new leaves don't lie. 

Isn't spray and grow and such products mainly an iron boost for the veggie garden for the same reason? 

And you are right the paper was an observation of effects. The article I attached was a company using the paper to sell a product before the info is really proven. 

So common in agriculture. Everything retail I guess. Lol.


----------



## Chunky Stool (May 24, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> My observations match this iron info exactly.
> 
> My old house had .2 ec filtered well water and showed no iron build up at all. I only used bottled nutes and would show deficiencies without upping nute strength. Higher ec no iron deficiency. (Or calcium)
> 
> ...


This is all very fascinating! Thanks for the info guys. 
Ever heard of a product called _Vitalize_ by Mills? It is a *very* expensive foliar that's supposedly just silica. Can't overdose on silica, right? Well I gave my plants three doses in four days and the fan leaves bleached out to the max. 
Sounds like their secret ingredient might be iron... 
(I got a free sample.)


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 25, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> This is all very fascinating! Thanks for the info guys.
> Ever heard of a product called _Vitalize_ by Mills? It is a *very* expensive foliar that's supposedly just silica. Can't overdose on silica, right? Well I gave my plants three doses in four days and the fan leaves bleached out to the max.
> Sounds like their secret ingredient might be iron...
> (I got a free sample.)


I never use any additives unless I know what and why. And then I don't use any additives. Just a bottle of complete nutes. 

However I have found so far (in potting soil mix) that seaweed and humic acid are key ingredients to the results I look for. 

They are in my soil and nutes now but if I used Pro mix or the like and a mineral based nute I would add these elements. 

I have not used silica but is is highly recommended at a constant but low ppm. 

However. Silica is present in amended or organic soil so I wonder if it is a hydro thing like so many products needed for water culture that are needlessly recommended for soil and vise versa.


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## ANC (May 25, 2017)

Too much K screws with magnesium absorption. This is a critical problem. humans have haemoglobin which is formed around iron. If you replace that iron with magnesium you have plant blood, chlorophyll. is the heart. So, of photosynthesis.

It is very quickly depleted so when plants are not responding to single dose treatments, it may be because they are running out of this element too fast every time. Remember each strain and to some extend phenotype, have different nutritional demands. If everything else is going well I would not increase potassium unless the flowering stalls.


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## Dr. Who (May 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> From the information written I would conclude the room is a bit cold and a bit dry for the lighting and that K uptake is such that adding more gives you the results you want.
> 
> My opinion why. Is that the plants start to slowly lock out K at the roots and then photosynthesis is compromised some and the other colors start to show.
> 
> ...


NICE reply! Thank you, I understand better now too...

I don't think the rooms actually get cool enough too do much expression by temp variation. I built the stand alone building just for growing. It is very, very insulated and drops little. I have the night temps set to 65 and only during winter has the furnace come on at night (yup a furnace and central air!) I'm of the school of 71-74 ambient. Used a laser temp gun to measure the temp layers about the plant.

Pots on 1" foam = under 70
Mid to upper plant = 71-74
Canopy = upper 80's

This (in relation to my used RH %) supplies the proper transpiration rates for the way, and concentration rates that are feed. This in turn gives me my desired result = getting as close to "potential" as can be, without overfeeding. 

I feel these lower temps are a critical part of denser buds..... At least that's how it's worked for me, as I found this balance.
I Have to say the early reports on the KIND experiment follows my preference very well. I'm also running Hesi soil (my way) as the base and supplementing as a Friend and employee does. Should say here, that she took my old notes, liked the changes I made to Hesi's list and changed it again by her college studies (I hired her right out of school) and has shown some impressive results from her work.

Wanted to try that for myself. Following her method by eye and not by her chart (she wanted me to try that) is rather fun. It's _nice_ to have some _fun_ doing this again.....Just seemed to be getting rather monotonous....... 

Life needs change, to stay interesting......maybe some DWC with these brands for shits and giggles later..


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 25, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> NICE reply! Thank you, I understand better now too...
> 
> I don't think the rooms actually get cool enough too do much expression by temp variation. I built the stand alone building just for growing. It is very, very insulated and drops little. I have the night temps set to 65 and only during winter has the furnace come on at night (yup a furnace and central air!) I'm of the school of 71-74 ambient. Used a laser temp gun to measure the temp layers about the plant.
> 
> ...



Ok. I see where you feel things are stable enough to make judgements. 

I do get tons of color with night temps at 65-66 Fahrenheit. 

I run 75-77 lights on and 65-70 lights off. And humidity maintained for the whole house and grow rooms at 50-60% RH. 

best I can do here ventilated. 

The colors increased drastically with the metal and ceramic halides in there. It was the same for color (not leaf health) regardless of a little over or under nuting. 

Isn't the purpling from the plant getting old and being unable to make chlorophyll? It's mostly genetic?


----------



## Dr. Who (May 25, 2017)

ANC said:


> Too much K screws with magnesium absorption. This is a critical problem. humans have haemoglobin which is formed around iron. If you replace that iron with magnesium you have plant blood, chlorophyll. is the heart. So, of photosynthesis.
> 
> It is very quickly depleted so when plants are not responding to single dose treatments, it may be because they are running out of this element too fast every time. Remember each strain and to some extend phenotype, have different nutritional demands. If everything else is going well I would not increase potassium unless the flowering stalls.


I see your point, yet I'm not raising to toxic levels or levels that have screwed my Mg uptake...Not at all. I assure you, I have _*no *_Mg problems. In my organic wo soils or in the synthetic runs I'm doing right now.
I'm also a everyday water/feeder in the use of synthetic's, so no "running out to fast" problems there.

In the WO soil builds. I go for 2 of 3 bloom soils being amended with differing release timed "extra" K. For longer running plants. The 3rd is a fast plant faster release higher K soil. These soils have _plenty of available Mg....._and I have never had an uptake issue with Mg in them. This would seem to indicate that the plant is not being feed a tox level amount....eh?

Now and then (with the organics), might supplement a bit more K by teas near the end. If the plant "looks" like it needs more to fill _my_ requirements from years of doing it....As you might guess. I grow by "what the plant tells me" visually. Some natural schedule has been ingrained over the years and of course the plants tolerance's to what I'm feeding.....It's like it's following a very well worn path, that you began decades ago..... After finding what has been _your_ best route to the destination..

I believe that our plant has a higher need/tolerance for K then many other C3 plants. That's just a simple observation and has it's own "limits". I see that difference all the time on the farms......Squash has very little tolerance to any elevation of K. Cruciferous vegetables have more but, still quickly loose yield from elevated K. This makes sense as you tend to have these crops in more moist soils and that increases K availability.....You don't amend the soil for K, you rotate to a lower K using plant for that area next season. Alfalfa and grains like higher K amounts in soil and alfalfa actually does best with plenty of available K. This makes for the use of manures being well suited for use as ferts on those area's....Same for limited use on cruciferous fields but, not for squash fields!

This is what I have found in Cannabis as expression of K *overuse *in veg: Reduced growth followed by symptoms of iron chlorosis, stunting, reduced branching, color expression in new growth that can increase out, and abnormal darkening and thickening of roots. 

In bloom: Reduced growth followed by symptoms of iron chlorosis, stunting. In severe case's (you do see this around here too) necrosis starting on the edges of leaves and moving inward.

This is a severe case (pic from cannabis.com)


This is somewhat advanced excess K expression in squash. More like it was ferted poorly and responded quickly to the problem.


Early in squash is light yellowing followed by light tan necrosis on the leaf edges, going about 1/8 to 1/4 inch in....


----------



## Dr. Who (May 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> I never use any additives unless I know what and why. And then I don't use any additives. Just a bottle of complete nutes.
> 
> However I have found so far (in potting soil mix) that seaweed and humic acid are key ingredients to the results I look for.
> 
> ...


Exactly correct! There is no "need" to amend Si in soils! There is _plenty _available, all the plant can use!

Now Hydro is a completely other story. While the plant does grow, it shows in testing like half the "normal" plant levels of Si in it's cell structure. With everything that Si regulates or has relative relationships to.....Personally, I would say that proper use of amending SI in hydro is *needed.
*
I always found it prudent to ensure adding it by it's self and pre-diluted in a gallon or 2 of water. pH to the res pH level and add slowly.

I had better results with less problems (especially P problems), when using Si in hydro - period.


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 25, 2017)

@Dr. Who 

I forgot to mention. The breeder of CH9 seeds had developed a powdered nute after Greenhouse seeds version became popular in Europe. 

The NPK. 

12-9-34

With 2 kinds of nitrogen and 3% magnesium. 

He had been growing medical with the big boys back in 93' in Mendocino. Sure he started before that. Point is tons of plant history. 

Thought you would find it interesting. 

It's called. "Easy Pistils". Meant to be used all the way through.


----------



## Dr. Who (May 25, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> Well I wasn't looking for whether Fe increases CBD and Mn increases THC and these are observations only, not actual experiments.
> 
> What I noticed is that under high light intensity, iron deficiency is a lot more common. I've tried levels between 4ppm iron and 10ppm iron (Hoagland formula has Fe of anywhere between 1-5ppm) and used to use commercial mixes like GH flora. I've never experienced any of the light bleaching symptoms under high intensity light with any of my formulas and I suspect this is because of most commercial formulas are just on the borderline of causing deficiencies in Fe. FeDTPA is one of the more expensive ingredients. I started with too much iron in my first formulas (10ppm) and halfed it over time and saw no deficiencies or slowing of growth.
> 
> ...



It would seem that we _are_ getting quality answers and directions from Heil Tweeter in his posts! Confirming these "observations."
In fact in reading between the lines in his posting. You get the feeling that some real serious growers have known and been practicing this for awhile..

Observations are the ground floor of discovery..no?

I've already sent out soil samples and will follow his Mn and Fe level relations ships and increase my Mn by the recommended 10 - 20 ppms at a time. As needed of course. 

I do understand your minimalist approach too! Interesting in it's self!


----------



## Dr. Who (May 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> @Dr. Who
> 
> I forgot to mention. The breeder of CH9 seeds had developed a powdered nute after Greenhouse seeds version became popular in Europe.
> 
> ...


That's an interesting NPK balance......Anyone else see the high K levels? That's not close to where I have mine! 
Yet you can see the use at 1/3rd and that's still high K to me, P level just a _tic_ too.....4-3-11.3 

Yet the P level will work with that N.......Gosh, my ratio is close, except for the K. I'm like 6 for K.


----------



## Dr. Who (May 25, 2017)

@MichiganMedGrower 

I forgot to ask. Is that a single nutrient to be used all the way? At differing amounts?


----------



## MichiganMedGrower (May 25, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> @MichiganMedGrower
> 
> I forgot to ask. Is that a single nutrient to be used all the way? At differing amounts?


Scroll down for directions. 

https://www.ch9femaleseeds.com/easypistils#.WSbrcoEpCaM


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## Dr. Who (May 25, 2017)

MichiganMedGrower said:


> Scroll down for directions.
> 
> https://www.ch9femaleseeds.com/easypistils#.WSbrcoEpCaM


I see. Nice that he use's weight over volume! Only way to use a powder in my book.

It all makes sense after reading his amounts and timing......My K use is more then the normal formula's but, not that high. Again interesting to be sure.....


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## ANC (May 25, 2017)

Some good stuff coming up here. Just want to add that the quantity of minerals is not always as important as the ratio between specific ones.


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## whitebb2727 (May 25, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Goes to say that "single flowers" seeds ares still differing pheno's.
> 
> Got 8 distinct pheno's out of an F1 breeding result. That was from the first 12 beans popped - 4 males and 8 females. All the females grew out distinctly different = 8 pheno's.


That's odd. Normally f1 is uniform.


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## churchhaze (May 25, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Observations are the ground floor of discovery..no?


I agree. Without observations, it would be hard if not impossible to come up with good hypotheses and thus apparatus and procedure.

That being said, I'd love to see an actual experiment done with clones and controlled nutrients and light, with only Mn varying. Also, if you use MnSO4 as your source of Mn, you will have to find a way to keep SO4-- constant (many people here think sulfur feeds trichs), which is easier said than done. For example, you could replace some of your MgSO4 with Mg(NO3)2, but then you're boosting your N which we all know is the most important element.

Of course the results would have to be actually tested for THC and before you could come up with any conclusion. I'd be interested in the results.


----------



## churchhaze (May 25, 2017)

Dr. Who said:


> Personally, I would say that proper use of amending SI in hydro is *needed.*


First of all, it's Si, not SI.. S is sulfur and I is iodine. Second, it's clearly not needed as using 0 silicon won't result in any deficiencies. Personally, I can't understand why people even bother with silicon and I definitely can't understand why anyone would say it's *needed*. Not only is silicon _clearly _not needed, I think it's just a fad.


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## Dr. Who (May 26, 2017)

whitebb2727 said:


> That's odd. Normally f1 is uniform.


It's from a project.....Insane looking strain......
Each end of the cross is unique in the way they look, and each had more then average pheno #'s in their expression too.

The follow up run of 24 beans. Showed the addition of 1 new _distinct, added to that group of 8. _That makes 9 solid pheno's for this cross.....I have just over 200 beans left from the chosen seed set. This is the most I've ever gotten......Kinda makes it a bitch to choose the chicken dinner winner of the cross.. Having fun though.


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## Dr. Who (May 26, 2017)

churchhaze said:


> First of all, it's Si, not SI.. S is sulfur and I is iodine. Second, it's clearly not needed as using 0 silicon won't result in any deficiencies. Personally, I can't understand why people even bother with silicon and I definitely can't understand why anyone would say it's *needed*. Not only is silicon _clearly _not needed, I think it's just a fad.


I know (Si) = dyslexia at work......ever notice how many times I edit some of these? Fixing that problem .

An interesting opinion, and technically correct.

I do believe I got better results when using it in hydro.

I'm pretty sure Cannabis is in the "intermediate" class of Si use (1.5 -.5% of circulated amount available). I found better plant strength (as far as branching supporting the budding vs. needing support). Longer onset times for PM to appear, and better bud set. When it was used.

Again, those are simply my observations in hydro experiments. That's why I used the term "*needed*", and that's simply my opinion on it's use.

As far as soils are concerned. NO amending is ever going to make a real difference. Soil has plenty available. More then the plant will use. Adding to that is simply a waste of money...."Not that that never happens around here..eh?" 

This has turned into a great thread. Been pleased with the quality of knowledge shared and the debate value from the advanced members.


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## SSGrower (May 26, 2017)

Guessing you have discussed synergies between Mg and Mn? Going to have to go back further, read first page and last 2. Was thinking who the f is using irridium? Would be @Dr. Who if anyone .
But your slip o the brain actually points out that there are many interlacing variables here infra red was mentioned as a result of the wrong fe abbreviation - sneaky (subconcious?)planning on your part doc if you ask me.


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## Dr. Who (May 26, 2017)

SSGrower said:


> Guessing you have discussed synergies between Mg and Mn? Going to have to go back further, read first page and last 2. Was thinking who the f is using irridium? Would be @Dr. Who if anyone .
> But your slip o the brain actually points out that there are many interlacing variables here infra red was mentioned as a result of the wrong fe abbreviation - sneaky (subconcious?)planning on your part doc if you ask me.


LOL, as age has been growing, My dyslexia has effected my typing......Mind doing to many things at once? 
FRUSTRATING!

Also Mg and K are THC inhibitors to a point......The relationship in Mn and Fe levels are important. You are right that Mg and Ca can limit Mn uptake......Balance is key.


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## ANC (May 27, 2017)

At what time do they apply the iron foliar spray? Found a chelate today that can be foliar fed. It is like $5 a pack.


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## ANC (Jun 27, 2017)

Does it state the dosing regiment for iron? At what stage do you start? I have iron chelate for foliar application, Have a few similar phenos from seeds from one flower, would like to do a comparison. I haven't switched to bloom yet but they are pretty big.


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## ANC (Aug 17, 2017)

I was quite surprised when I went outside to go check my ladies after the rains of the last two days, one's leaves went purple. Stems are still nice and green though.
Quite a pretty contrast. Guess I'm going to have to try and clone a flowering plant, as it is quite unusual, the other plants standing next to it stayed green. They were grown from seeds from one flower.


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## Dr. Who (Feb 2, 2018)

@churchhaze @Heil Tweetler

I'm digging this thread back up.

Much has happened since it's first posting.

We know that Mel Frank did a micro mix to increase THC (cannabinoid) compounds.

His mix was higher in Fe then Mn and that lead to higher CBD levels (He didn't know that then). So simply balancing the Mn to the Fe flipped that formula to increase THC over CBD.

_*"Mel Frank offers this micronutrient formula for high cannabinoid production: Fe-sulfate (5 mg/gal), Cu-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Mn-sulfate (2 mg/gal), Zn-sulfate (0.2 mg/gal), Boric acid (2 mg/gal), Molybdenic acid (0.1 mg/gal). Use 1 tspn/gal of nutrient solution, once monthly."*_

Now this is Mel's formula from that book. Like I said the Fe is high and that's generating more CBD then THC production. It's easy to realize that from what we know about the Fe and Mn being equally balanced that we get more THC production over CBD. So the next step would be to raise the Mn content to be equal, correct?

While talking over the phone to my BIO AG rep. (farming reasons). The conversation slipped over to cannabis growing. We talked about some differing supplementations between what I was doing and what he was doing. I gave him the formula Mel was using and the balancing of the Mn to the Fe. He said, "Wait a minute! We have something that's almost exactly what you're describing, in our line of products! Take a look at our TM-7 micro & humic mix...That has to be about _exactly_ what Mel was doing but, _with_ that balanced Mn to Fe your talking about."

Long story short. I took a look at the product PDF and saw this!

Guaranteed Analysis: Sulfur(S)........................2% 
Copper (Cu)............0.31% 
Boron (B).................0.37% 
Iron (FE)......................1.2% 
Cobalt (Co).............0.05% 
Manganese (Mn)......1.2% 
Molybdenum (M0)..0.1% 
Zinc................................0.7% 

Non-plant food ingredients: Humic 40% & Fulvic 10.5% 

Derived from: Boron, cobalt sulfate, copper sulfate, ferrous sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium molybdenate, zinc sulfate and chelated with humic and fulvic acids derived from fresh water cretaceous humate deposits. 

*GENERAL APPLICATION RATES:*

Seed activation: For vegetable seeds soak 72 hours at 0.5g /gal. For other, soak for 24 hours at same ratio. 
Soil and Container plants: 0.75-1.25g/gal of irrigation solution. 
Hydroponic: 0.5-0.75g/gal of nutrient solution used in reservoir (use with every change. Top-offs can be chared with 1/4-1/2 normal rate). 
Foliar Rates: .75g/gal every 7-10 days. 
Field Use: 2-4 pounds per acre every 3-6 weeks. Pre-Plant Soil Conditioning/Bioremediation: 5-10 pounds per acre. 1/4 tsp= 1g 1/2tsp= 2g 

*Please note approx 15% is insoluble and can be cast in compost or garden. Exceeding application rates can cause irregular growth. Store dry and away from excessive heat.

*HOLY SHIT! A pre-mixed THC increasing formula!*

Here we go, and with the proper figuring between us. We decided that the package instructions of 1/4 tsp per gallon was spot on for a 3-4 week re-application rate of this supplement was going to be the ball park way to go!

I'm giving it a try at the safety end of the 4 week re-amending! 

I just thought that I would share this with any of you already doing this style of THC increase manipulation. You might want to give this a shot over making your own!
A paltry $ 16 bucks a 300 gr bag!

I did find my sweet spot in balancing Fe to Mn in my soil mix's for WOSS building.....I'm doing this (TM-7) with my few synthetic runs, and considering trying it as a supplement to the organic runs and not amending the soil to the "balance" point.

Thoughts from those shouted out to?


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## Heil Tweetler (Feb 2, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> @churchhaze @Heil Tweetler
> 
> I'm digging this thread back up.
> 
> ...


Ill give this a bit more thought but from experience I can tell you that I stopped using the TM7 product because I didn't need to add Fe or Mg at all. So, though the ratios in the product may be in balance, there is an assumption that your mix is gonna need all those elements in balance. In my mixes K, Fe and Mg need to be leached not supplemented. While I can use a bit of Cu, definitely more Mn and a bit of B.


I now use my pathetic math skills to dose with tiny applications of salts. Ive got a new batch about to start I can give periodic updates on my progress. Im working with an agronomist using data from Spectrum Analytics


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## Dr. Who (Feb 3, 2018)

I see, and understand. Good point Tweetler...
The balanced amended soil is working well. the why change whats working ideal is in play there.

Still for the synthetic non-amended soil thing? I got the bag now, so I guess it'll be up to the final testing...for that choice...

Thanks.


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## Heil Tweetler (Feb 4, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> I see, and understand. Good point Tweetler...
> The balanced amended soil is working well. the why change whats working ideal is in play there.
> 
> Still for the synthetic non-amended soil thing? I got the bag now, so I guess it'll be up to the final testing...for that choice...
> ...


Yup.

When you review your analysis and determine what you need to get the ratios you're looking for, only then, decide on amendments. No advantage to adding elements that are already at very high levels.

I just sent off a sample today. If it shows something interesting I'll post it up.


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## Dr. Who (Mar 5, 2018)

@Heil Tweetler
l'd like to see that soil report sir!

Had to do testing, your correct! I expected some of them too....
Some interesting observations:

Update:
I took some clones I would have otherwise culled and did some experimenting....

BE FUCKING CAREFUL with this stuff....several points to consider.

It's way powerful vs Mel's type formula..

*1* plant was treated once in veg, again at bloom transition, and again 30days. 1/4 tsp per gallon....As expected that was way too much and lock outs happened from improper relationships between compounds (from build ups - over use)
The Fe was blocked and bud development was retarded, badly...culled!

*1 *plant was fed the 1/4 tsp in veg and left at that. Before the last up-potting (to bloom pot). She was showing _light_ expressions of that Fe blocking.....After up-potting. She shows that the possible problem is clearing - further time needed to qualify this observation.

*1* plant was done in my SS. Does NOT work well with that at all. I rather expected that! Do not supplement with high dose's of micro's if you build SS......_Possible, low amounts of use?_ To be further explored....say maybe a 1/8 or 1/16 tsp at the flip?

The other plants (3) were done as: *1* multi treatment at veg, and the start of bloom and at 30 days. Heavy feeding GG4 strain. Shows certain Fe blocking again. Culled, as I know what the bud formation would have done....retarded...

There were several strains already in bloom that got the treatment. No visible blocking.... Yet there _appears_ to be some lower bud sizing for the time in bloom. Bulking is just starting so more to come on that.

Things to ponder:

I'll measure in grains for this, on any next testing.
Looking at 1/3 of 1/4 tsp as a starting point for that.
Most likely will be at transition and once halfway through bloom.

I feel this stuff will work. Just has to be inline with Mel's delivered concentration rates of application. Could be further lowering of amounts applied!

Any use in soils of an "over the counter - 30 day feeding" type. Show promise in use at low amounts used. 

Not so for full on organic SS use...

Yet, any "key" to soil use, may well depend on soil testing to hit those 100 ppm per Fe and Mn levels found to be effective in other advanced growers use. This brings me to believe that building soils and using this product _to reach_ those 100 ppm levels in the soil. May be the effective thing to do.....SS or even the "over the counter 30 day" soils.

This will be my 3rd step in testing...

You can see that this will take some time to actually nail down solid, effective, information.

I will keep you all informed.

Please use what's given so far and don't over use it. Start LOW and avoid multiple supplementing. Unless of course, your experimenting too. I hope this early info helps that as a guide...

Further observations as they arise...

Peace!


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## 0321Marine (Mar 5, 2018)

Xcoregamerskillz said:


> This is awesome @Dr. Who. Could you do me a favor though and call Iron Fe and not Ir. Ir is Irridium, and I doubt people really want to add that to their soil.


THIS! 

lol.. I clicked on this thread because I saw that people were possibly recommending to add iridium to their soil.


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## SSGrower (Mar 5, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> @Heil Tweetler
> l'd like to see that soil report sir!
> 
> Had to do testing, your correct! I expected some of them too....
> ...


How long in veg? And at what point in veg did you feed?

I am investigating megacrop a similar 1 component mix in my, well, for lack of a better term QFORSS (quasi fucking organic recycled suplemented soil) and I noticed at the first feeding of 2g gal. (To estimate maybe 1/2 tsp.?) and they did not like it. They were 3.5 weeks from germ. and one was a reveging clone so hard to tell if it was adversely impacted.

Edit, after reviewing maybe not so similar in composition but the concept of a single componet mix.


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## Dr. Who (Mar 6, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> How long in veg? And at what point in veg did you feed?
> 
> I am investigating megacrop a similar 1 component mix in my, well, for lack of a better term QFORSS (quasi fucking organic recycled suplemented soil) and I noticed at the first feeding of 2g gal. (To estimate maybe 1/2 tsp.?) and they did not like it. They were 3.5 weeks from germ. and one was a reveging clone so hard to tell if it was adversely impacted.
> 
> Edit, after reviewing maybe not so similar in composition but the concept of a single componet mix.


About 3-4 weeks.

This is not a feed mix but, a micro with humic mix. The mix is a form of Mel Franks THC booster. much stronger in concentrations though.
I think you figured that out...


----------



## SSGrower (Mar 6, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> About 3-4 weeks.
> 
> This is not a feed mix but, a micro with humic mix. The mix is a form of Mel Franks THC booster. much stronger in concentrations though.
> I think you figured that out...


Yeah a lack reading comprehension and memory failure on my part.

What I was actually trying to elude to with the statment about the plants not seeming to like it is like heiltweetler stated the initial concentrations and availabilty of the minerals are critical. For the last few years any time I have seen evidence of a micronutrient def, I use Bio-Genesis Mineral Matrix. Not nearly as concentrated easier but seems well tolerated in my system.


I have not used it proactively though, perhaps it is worth giving them a shot before up pot.
I am finally to the point where I am going to pay for a lab analysis of a few soil samples.


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## Dr. Who (Mar 7, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> Yeah a lack reading comprehension and memory failure on my part.
> 
> What I was actually trying to elude to with the statment about the plants not seeming to like it is like heiltweetler stated the initial concentrations and availabilty of the minerals are critical. For the last few years any time I have seen evidence of a micronutrient def, I use Bio-Genesis Mineral Matrix. Not nearly as concentrated easier but seems well tolerated in my system.
> View attachment 4101224
> ...


 Looks interesting but, for what we are trying to do here. You want the Fe and Mn to be equal.....The goal in building a soil with THC raising ability is to balance the to as close as you can and shhot for 100 ppm of each...

STILL, that formula is interesting.......I strongly prefer BIO AG products. Their source compounds are the highest quality on the market today! Any of their Fulvic/Humic products are hands down,,_the best_ available!


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 7, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> Looks interesting but, for what we are trying to do here. You want the Fe and Mn to be equal.....The goal in building a soil with THC raising ability is to balance the to as close as you can and shhot for 100 ppm of each...
> 
> STILL, that formula is interesting.......I strongly prefer BIO AG products. *Their source compounds are the highest quality on the market today! Any of their Fulvic/Humic products are hands down,,the best available!*


Sounds like marketing hype. 
Exactly how did you verify BIO AG source compounds, as well as the sources for all of their competitors?


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## Budley Doright (Mar 7, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Sounds like marketing hype.
> Exactly how did you verify BIO AG source compounds, as well as the sources for all of their competitors?


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## SSGrower (Mar 7, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Sounds like marketing hype.
> Exactly how did you verify BIO AG source compounds, as well as the sources for all of their competitors?


My bottle of Bio-Genesis has Frank Zappas pic on it
 
Lower left corner.


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## Budley Doright (Mar 8, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> My bottle of Bio-Genesis has Frank Zappas pic on it
> View attachment 4102065
> Lower left corner.


How could you not use that .....gotta be good


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## Dr. Who (Mar 8, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Sounds like marketing hype.
> Exactly how did you verify BIO AG source compounds, as well as the sources for all of their competitors?


They are really a farm supplier. They ventured into the gardening market...Been using them for as long as they have been around. Organic farmers best friends...

Build a soil is another one that says BIO AG rules the Fulvic market (Humic is just a "link" in the fulvic acid chain)....For the same reasons, source and quality.....The langbinite source is the key. There are differing lang qualities, and BIO AG uses only the highest ore % by content out there..It's their bread and butter product(s).....G&H and _by far_ most others (including AN) uses low content and low cost Lang to use in their process of creation...Some a mid grade ore.....The other point is the concnetrations in many of these "Brand Name" nutrient makers Humic mix's....Are too weak to be seriously effective in what they claim to due! I suggest reading deeply about Fulvic and Humic acids....You'll discover what I mean about that last part....

Idiots like AN say their process makes it better.....Over blown and basically a lie! Do you like your food more processed? 


Budley? You can stick Trumps finger up your ass! I could not hate anybody worse. He's the Monsatan of politics! Moron's falling for his BS tax cuts....Now his moron tariff's....."Well Trump says a trade war is good....He's kept his cam"pain" promise's. So he must be right." I actually heard that in our local watering hole.....MORON's, we're surrounded by moron's.....
Yeah, you hit a soft spot there .....

Now Frank? Oh yeah, gotta be good! lol.... He could grow music great!


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## Dr. Who (Mar 8, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> My bottle of Bio-Genesis has Frank Zappas pic on it
> View attachment 4102065
> Lower left corner.


  Now Commander Cody? George F. He grows.....I mean it. He _could, and does,,_ really grow! Friend of Frank's and he formed a fun ass band just down the road in Ann Arbor! Commander Cody and his lost planet airmen... His brother Chris, lived there a long time before his death in 92. He (George) grow's in a greenhouse and is very good at it too. His brother Chris had MS and he treated his MS with the "weed" before many knew how well it helped with the problems from MS.

He was a good friend (Chris) later in his life, and I miss him dearly....He's "Lost In The Ozone" now....
George? Haven't spoken to him since 81.......2 Triple Cheese (Side Order Of Fries)


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## Chunky Stool (Mar 8, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> They are really a farm supplier. They ventured into the gardening market...Been using them for as long as they have been around. Organic farmers best friends...
> 
> Build a soil is another one that says BIO AG rules the Fulvic market (Humic is just a "link" in the fulvic acid chain)....For the same reasons, source and quality.....The langbinite source is the key. There are differing lang qualities, and BIO AG uses only the highest ore % by content out there..It's their bread and butter product(s).....G&H and _by far_ most others (including AN) uses low content and low cost Lang to use in their process of creation...Some a mid grade ore.....The other point is the concnetrations in many of these "Brand Name" nutrient makers Humic mix's....Are too weak to be seriously effective in what they claim to due! I suggest reading deeply about Fulvic and Humic acids....You'll discover what I mean about that last part....
> 
> ...


WTF? 
Are you OK?


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## Budley Doright (Mar 8, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> They are really a farm supplier. They ventured into the gardening market...Been using them for as long as they have been around. Organic farmers best friends...
> 
> Build a soil is another one that says BIO AG rules the Fulvic market (Humic is just a "link" in the fulvic acid chain)....For the same reasons, source and quality.....The langbinite source is the key. There are differing lang qualities, and BIO AG uses only the highest ore % by content out there..It's their bread and butter product(s).....G&H and _by far_ most others (including AN) uses low content and low cost Lang to use in their process of creation...Some a mid grade ore.....The other point is the concnetrations in many of these "Brand Name" nutrient makers Humic mix's....Are too weak to be seriously effective in what they claim to due! I suggest reading deeply about Fulvic and Humic acids....You'll discover what I mean about that last part....
> 
> ...


LOL, sorry doc, I supposed if he was my president I’d be pissed as well.... it was the first meme I found lol.


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## Dr. Who (Mar 10, 2018)

Trump.....GRRRRRRrrrrr

Thanks Budley.....


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## Dr. Who (Mar 10, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> WTF?
> Are you OK?



LOL, just read the first part and the last part and ignore Trump.....I know it's damn hard to do.....LMAO


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## Budley Doright (Mar 10, 2018)

Dr. Who said:


> LOL, just read the first part and the last part and ignore Trump.....I know it's damn hard to do.....LMAO


Ya it looked likeI caused a stroke . But yup Doc, it just blows me away that he is your president, but look what we have, although he does have nicer hair, he’s still a cock waffle . How goes the girls?


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## Dr. Who (Mar 11, 2018)

Budley Doright said:


> Ya it looked likeI caused a stroke . But yup Doc, it just blows me away that he is your president, but look what we have, although he does have nicer hair, he’s still a cock waffle . How goes the girls?


Very good sir.... New things right around the corner....I can't wait to get my hands on real, first (and only) issue Sunday Driver! She's almost here!


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