# Defoliation



## roseypeach (Jul 13, 2013)

So my next to harvest girl has some bud sites that had so many freakin leaves that the light couldn't get to them. I read up on defoliating, quite by accident and found this fellow who swears by it. I gave her a good once over last night and today no stress. Hoping I get some good benefits from it.

you can see what she looked like before in my journal. This is what she looks like now. Notice I only pulled fan leaves, and did end up using sterile scissors to trim the bush from around these two tops that never formed. I hope I see some action before harvesting.


Bud site, no bud


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## direwolf71 (Jul 13, 2013)

I will do it selectively, I think as long as you don't get carried away it is cool. Just keep in mind that the leaves of your plant are its solar panels, so to speak. Cutting too much is not good, some will say don't cut any but that seems a bit extreme imo.


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## beuffer420 (Jul 13, 2013)

Is that a revegged plant?


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## cannawizard (Jul 13, 2013)

beuffer420 said:


> Is that a revegged plant?


I was thinking the same thing when I saw the pics.. What strain is that @rosey?


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## roseypeach (Jul 13, 2013)

I'm not sure, some dank I got a hold of last summer. Found 2 seeds in it and this one took.

Not revegged, but close. She was under flowering lights and then I put her outside for a few days. So she did go from flowering to vegging again. Was really concerned about yield so I did some researching and decided on the defoliation. Best thing I could have done, really. I'll update on Monday to show her progress since.


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## roseypeach (Jul 13, 2013)

I got my info here:

http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial


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## roseypeach (Jul 14, 2013)

some better shots of her


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 14, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I got my info here:
> 
> http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial


The guy is an idiot all the way down to this nonsense: "I'm on the side that believe there is absolutely nothing stressful about defoliation or bending branches. Honestly, there is no way to achieve nearly a pound of buds from a 2-3 foot tall plant indoors, except using defoliation." His sorry results speak for themselves.

You need to lurk (search) as there has been a dozen defoliation threads started....by every new crop of newbs. Start with 'lollilopping"

UB


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## Impman (Jul 14, 2013)

That thing is cool looking. maybe not smokeable but cool. you should out it back outside for a few days and put it back into flowering again. just to see what happens. that is no longer a weed plant and more of a science experiment now.


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## Impman (Jul 14, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I got my info here:
> 
> http://growweedeasy.com/marijuana-defoliation-tutorial


that is not a real web page. that is made by those advertisement spams to sell spoons or forks or tupperware.


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## Constiello (Jul 14, 2013)

I read your title as Defloweration

_if ya know what I mean_

Anyway interesting looking plants. It's always fun to be an alien manipulating a plant


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## Sir.Ganga (Jul 14, 2013)

Whatever you do to those little ladies won`t help much at this stage my friend. I would let them finish how ever they finish. Do some research on the subject because defoliating at the correct time and properly can and will result in a much stronger yield. UB has no clue as he is living in the 70`s. Brush off his bullshit...look at his avatar.


Uncle popcorn said:


> You need to lurk (search) as there has been a dozen defoliation threads started....by every new crop of newbs. Start with 'lollilopping"
> 
> UB


 Well I will gladly put one of my newbie lollipopped plants against the crap your pushing ANYTIME. You are the #$%^ coming on here with little knowledge of indoor gardening and you show it every time you open your trap.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 14, 2013)

Leave the leaves alone.


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## cannawizard (Jul 14, 2013)

This is a defoliation thread, if your just here to post something that has nothing to do with defoliation/leaf pruning--- thanks for sharing your "opinion" and move on~

@Sir Ganga, dude just stick to the topic  no need to address things that won't help the OP~ I'll make sure (or at-least try) to keep this thread alive, the anti-defol team won't turn this into another closed thread-- but in RIU you'll never know


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## Kite High (Jul 14, 2013)

Impman said:


> that is not a real web page. that is made by those advertisement spams to sell spoons or forks or tupperware.


If you look the site over you will see they are only pushing Nirvana Seeds 
It's a commercial with a bunch of bs to get you to love Nirvana Seeds


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## Kite High (Jul 14, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Whatever you do to those little ladies won`t help much at this stage my friend. I would let them finish how ever they finish. Do some research on the subject because defoliating at the correct time and properly can and will result in a much stronger yield. UB has no clue as he is living in the 70`s. Brush off his bullshit...look at his avatar. Well I will gladly put one of my newbie lollipopped plants against the crap your pushing ANYTIME. You are the #$%^ coming on here with little knowledge of indoor gardening and you show it every time you open your trap.


I will take your challenge


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 14, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> This is a defoliation thread, if your just here to post something that has nothing to do with defoliation/leaf pruning--- thanks for sharing your "opinion" and move on~
> 
> @Sir Ganga, dude just stick to the topic  no need to address things that won't help the OP~ I'll make sure (or at-least try) to keep this thread alive, the anti-defol team won't turn this into another closed thread-- but in RIU you'll never know


Why don't you save some time and pull together all the defoliation threads at RIU and just link us to them, maybe pin the stupid sons-a-bitches. To have this newbie subject and practice come up once a week speaks volumes about RIU and this community who is more absorbed by gimmicks and trends than scientific facts.

UB


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## Sir.Ganga (Jul 14, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I will take your challenge


 Now were are getting somewhere. I will in the next month then start a thread in Advanced, that you can join in on. UB maybe its not the community that absorbed, I think you may be self- absorbed.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 14, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I'm not sure, some dank I got a hold of last summer. Found 2 seeds in it and this one took.
> 
> Not revegged, but close. She was under flowering lights and then I put her outside for a few days. So she did go from flowering to vegging again. Was really concerned about yield so I did some researching and decided on the defoliation. Best thing I could have done, really. I'll update on Monday to show her progress since.


The best thing you could have done if your goal was to reduce your yield. Bud photosynthesize very, very little. Its those fan leaves you removed that power the growth of the buds. Live and learn I guess.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 14, 2013)

I see Sir Trolls Alot is about and is being about as helpful as ever it sounds. Man the ignore function is SWEET!


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## roseypeach (Jul 14, 2013)

Constiello said:


> I read your title as Defloweration
> 
> _if ya know what I mean_
> 
> Anyway interesting looking plants. It's always fun to be an alien manipulating a plant


I know what ya mean LOL
I've been training her for a while now, fucking blooms suck on it though. I was desperate which is why I resorted to removing some of the foliage.
Hopefully it will help, if it doesn't, wtf LOL


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## Impman (Jul 14, 2013)

What is photosynthesis? This is a very relevant question on a defoilage thread. Defoilating= killing. Your clipping the wings off of your butterflys


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## cannawizard (Jul 14, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Why don't you save some time and pull together all the defoliation threads at RIU and just link us to them, maybe pin the stupid sons-a-bitches. To have this newbie subject and practice come up once a week speaks volumes about RIU and this community who is more absorbed by gimmicks and trends than scientific facts.
> 
> UB


If they want to see the other (Defol/leaf pruning) threads, they can simply use the search function located on the top right~ ..Most defoliation threads under AMC have been closed due to the constant intelligent banter of both sides in-regards to this spicy topic~


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## Impman (Jul 14, 2013)

You are the advanced cultivation moderator. Defoilating is not advanced cultivation. It may be advanced not cultivating. cutting your leafs off is the opposite of cultivating.


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## roseypeach (Jul 14, 2013)

I didn't figure it could get any worse as far as blooms go.
Here's some of the buds on her...or lack thereof


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## roseypeach (Jul 14, 2013)

Impman said:


> What is photosynthesis? This is a very relevant question on a defoilage thread. Defoilating= killing. Your clipping the wings off of your butterflys


guess I'll find out the hard way
I understand how plants work. I've never taken leaves off a plant before unless they were dead or dying. In this case, I am simply trying to get more light to the bud sites. Notice I didn't take any of the leaves off from around the buds, just the parts where no bloom was occurring because of lack of light.


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## cannawizard (Jul 14, 2013)

Impman said:


> You are the advanced cultivation moderator. Defoilating is not advanced cultivation. It may be advanced not cultivating. cutting your leafs off is the opposite of cultivating.


Thanks for sharing, but if others want to share/debate/cross-reference anecdotal info concerning this practice-- they should be allowed to, even if some members deem the subject "not advanced"~

Like I said, if you want to say your .2s, your more than welcome, but if your just sticking around just to push YOUR beliefs/ideas because you don't agree with the subject at hand, then its unfair for the rest of the (pro) defol members that came to this thread


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## roseypeach (Jul 14, 2013)

Kite High said:


> If you look the site over you will see they are only pushing Nirvana Seeds
> It's a commercial with a bunch of bs to get you to love Nirvana Seeds


a waste of time since I won't be buying what they are selling LOL
thanks for the perspective though


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 14, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> Thanks for sharing, but if others want to share/debate/cross-reference anecdotal info concerning this practice-- they should be allowed to, even if some members deem the subject "not advanced"~
> 
> Like I said, if you want to say your .2s, your more than welcome, but if your just sticking around just to push YOUR beliefs/ideas because you don't agree with the subject at hand, then its unfair for the rest of the (pro) defol members that came to this thread


Agreed. It's pretty lame when members make plans in other threads to collectively troll other threads they disagree with: https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/267989-uncle-bens-gardening-tweeks-pointers-166.html#post9335668


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## cannawizard (Jul 14, 2013)

Well all I can say is, "just forget about it" ~ No need to worry yourself over things you have no control over, life becomes more pleasant that way


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## Jimdamick (Jul 14, 2013)

I still say that in a perfect environment where plants don't touch,or they are outdoors where you have natural light, pruning in not needed.But in the indoor grow when plants are crowded together with un-natural lighting, that is another matter. I just think that in order to get the full potential of the lower bud sites on a plant, the surrounding leaves at the bud site should receive as much light as possible. In one way I think that removing 1 leaf to get more light to 3 or 4 leaves is at least a wash. As far as removing a food source, the plant will compensate in other means, which are the nutes you provide it. I prune carefully, I don't hack away and I really think it works on improving the bud size on lower branches. This argument will go on for as long as people grow, all that I am saying is that after doing both, I think trimming works fine. To each their own. Peace


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 14, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> Well all I can say is, "just forget about it" ~ No need to worry yourself over things you have no control over, life becomes more pleasant that way


Good thing Rosa Parks didn't have that kind of attitude.


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## Kite High (Jul 14, 2013)

Jimdamick said:


> I still say that in a perfect environment where plants don't touch,or they are outdoors where you have natural light, pruning in not needed.But in the indoor grow when plants are crowded together with un-natural lighting, that is another matter. I just think that in order to get the full potential of the lower bud sites on a plant, the surrounding leaves at the bud site should receive as much light as possible. In one way I think that removing 1 leaf to get more light to 3 or 4 leaves is at least a wash. As far as removing a food source, the plant will compensate in other means, which are the nutes you provide it. I prune carefully, I don't hack away and I really think it works on improving the bud size on lower branches. This argument will go on for as long as people grow, all that I am saying is that after doing both, I think trimming works fine. To each their own. Peace


I want to know why not just put light down there and keep all of its production potential. Wby is that such an ignored concept? It works splendidly


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 14, 2013)

Really dosent matter IMO. The lower buds sites grow the way do because of hormonal response rather than the amount of light penetration.


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## Kite High (Jul 14, 2013)

I agree but it keeps those leaves green healthy and productive increasing yield. Staggered harvest is the way to fatten up the lowers as the auxins then go there. Especially need growing sats.


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## Impman (Jul 14, 2013)

Jimdamick said:


> I still say that in a perfect environment where plants don't touch,or they are outdoors where you have natural light, pruning in not needed.But in the indoor grow when plants are crowded together with un-natural lighting, that is another matter. I just think that in order to get the full potential of the lower bud sites on a plant, the surrounding leaves at the bud site should receive as much light as possible. In one way I think that removing 1 leaf to get more light to 3 or 4 leaves is at least a wash. As far as removing a food source, the plant will compensate in other means, which are the nutes you provide it. I prune carefully, I don't hack away and I really think it works on improving the bud size on lower branches. This argument will go on for as long as people grow, all that I am saying is that after doing both, I think trimming works fine. To each their own. Peace


leaves cant block light. I could thatch a roof of marijuana leafs and grow a huge outdoor plant under it.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 14, 2013)

Impman said:


> leaves cant block light.


Really? My lux meter says otherwise.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 15, 2013)

Impman said:


> leaves cant block light. I could thatch a roof of marijuana leafs and grow a huge outdoor plant under it.


You would be much better off if you just set back and listened. You can Parrot all you want. You still do not know dick about growing. And that grows painfully more obvious with each you post you spew out.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 15, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I agree but it keeps those leaves green healthy and productive increasing yield. Staggered harvest is the way to fatten up the lowers as the auxins then go there. Especially need growing sats.


Agreed. Staggered harvesting is a great tool to utilize.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 15, 2013)

It's obvious in some situations it is beneficial to remove some leaf... Just to air rate your plant, (if it's to big and bushy), so it doesn't rot and mold, if nothing else. The trick is knowing when, and if it is necessary. Fighting about it like it's a black and white subject, just show ignorance on the topic.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 15, 2013)

cannawizard said:


> Thanks for sharing, but if others want to share/debate/cross-reference anecdotal info concerning this practice-- they should be allowed to, even if some members deem the subject "not advanced"~
> 
> Like I said, if you want to say your .2s, your more than welcome, but if your just sticking around just to push YOUR beliefs/ideas because you don't agree with the subject at hand, then its unfair for the rest of the (pro) defol members that came to this thread


Can you say "beating a dead horse?"

I knew you could. 

You know folks are too lazy to do a search, or they just want attention. 

Anyone that thinks buds need direct light does NOT understand how this plant works or any other. Try telling that to a room full of professional fruit, berry, grape growers. You'll get laughed right out of the room.

We've had this (lame) discussion a thousand times, but I guess times are slow at RIU. It's another stupid forum gimmick without any science behind it, and you know it canna.

UB


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## roseypeach (Jul 15, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Agreed. Staggered harvesting is a great tool to utilize.


could you please explain staggered harvesting? I'm super curious
she is still looking good. I'll post more pics after another day or two to show progress.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 15, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> could you please explain staggered harvesting? I'm super curious
> she is still looking good. I'll post more pics after another day or two to show progress.


Harvesting just the upper portion of the plant leaving some of the lower to continue too ripen. This allows the lower buds some extra hormones(auxins)and extra time to bulk up.


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## Sir.Ganga (Jul 15, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I want to know why not just put light down there and keep all of its production potential. Wby is that such an ignored concept? It works splendidly


 Well I guess that's the difference then, what you consider "splendidly" I consider below average. Cmon man! you flogged that pic enough, steal a better pic next time, your gonna need it for our little challenge. Is that pic the best you got? This guy comes on here looking for solid advice and all you do is push bull crap. Its because of people like you that a simple PRODUCTIVE technique like this is so mis-understood and abused. Defoilation has nothing to do with light penetration or bigger buds lower down. The removal of any material in an indoor enviorment is for circulation purposes and to push the growth upwards into the light zone. That's it! Nothing magical about it. One bud in the zone or six...its a no brainer if you actually know what and how.


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## Impman (Jul 15, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Well I guess that's the difference then, what you consider "splendidly" I consider below average. Cmon man! you flogged that pic enough, steal a better pic next time, your gonna need it for our little challenge. Is that pic the best you got? This guy comes on here looking for solid advice and all you do is push bull crap. Its because of people like you that a simple PRODUCTIVE technique like this is so mis-understood and abused. Defoilation has nothing to do with light penetration or bigger buds lower down. The removal of any material in an indoor enviorment is for circulation purposes and to push the growth upwards into the light zone. That's it! Nothing magical about it. One bud in the zone or six...its a no brainer if you actually know what and how.


e

Uh, for circulation I just use a couple fans. my leafs dance around, green and happy all day. Circulating and photosynthesiszing -not a word- A Defoliated leaf is not a leaf at all..

and cutting a leaf doesn't promote growth toward the light...they do that anyways


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## skunkd0c (Jul 15, 2013)

Kite High said:


> I want to know why not just put light down there and keep all of its production potential. Wby is that such an ignored concept? It works splendidly


i agree if you can get light to the middle of plants there should be no reason to remove any foliage unless it is weak to begin with

some indica plants grow in a terrible shape and need some help, i would bend out the branches to allow light to get to the leaves inside the structure 
many skunk and sativa type plants like your c99 grow in a much more helpful shape light can spread allover the plants without too much intervention


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## Kite High (Jul 15, 2013)

Stay tuned. Some indies coming up.


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## Impman (Jul 15, 2013)

That cant be a real grow KiteHigh. Too many leafs and the buds are too big.


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## Kite High (Jul 15, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Well I guess that's the difference then, what you consider "splendidly" I consider below average. Cmon man! you flogged that pic enough, steal a better pic next time, your gonna need it for our little challenge. Is that pic the best you got? This guy comes on here looking for solid advice and all you do is push bull crap. Its because of people like you that a simple PRODUCTIVE technique like this is so mis-understood and abused. Defoilation has nothing to do with light penetration or bigger buds lower down. The removal of any material in an indoor enviorment is for circulation purposes and to push the growth upwards into the light zone. That's it! Nothing magical about it. One bud in the zone or six...its a no brainer if you actually know what and how.


Your technique is bullshit with nothing to back it up. Show your pics or shut your pie hole. And you ignoramus, where you do get the I only grow one cola plants? those are 4 plants with more than 16 colas
Want more pic here you go






























Just a portion of the main colas harvested...the bottom 2 1/3 - 3 foot of plants are being trimmed currently ...two weeks and change after the tops were chopped


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## hyroot (Jul 15, 2013)

Bahahahahahahaha. Kite, love the checkmate pic...


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 15, 2013)

Kite High said:


> Your technique is bullshit with nothing to back it up. Show your pics or shut your pie hole. And you ignoramus, where you do get the I only grow one cola plants? those are 4 plants with more than 16 colas
> Want more pic here you go
> 
> 
> ...


Kite do yourself a favor and put Sir Trolls A Lot on ignore.


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## Kite High (Jul 15, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Kite do yourself a favor and put Sir Trolls A Lot on ignore.


Not til the punk shows his pitiful plants


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 15, 2013)

He would have to first actually grow a plant Kite! 




Look at the plant back right that was raped for comparisons sake. Looks pretty woeful compared to those left to grow naturally. Can anyone say 3 foot cola with an ensemble of very nice secondary colas?


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## Kite High (Jul 15, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> He would have to first actually grow a plant Kite!
> 
> 
> View attachment 2737814
> ...


Nice bro


Well lets just look at Sir Goofus's stick trophy that he is so proud of that my lower secondary buds are bigger than





Now I understand why he has so few pics


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## skunkd0c (Jul 15, 2013)

^^lmao that looks like swerve same bum fluff


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## skunkd0c (Jul 15, 2013)

some plants, with leaves on lol 

7 weeks 12/12



Biker Kush















Fire Alien Kush















peace


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## Kite High (Jul 15, 2013)

Very beautiful indeed doc


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## hyroot (Jul 15, 2013)

Those are all beautiful guys.. kite you started a new trend here. There will be checkmates all over riu now.

I'm updating my thread later. With plants that have leaves too. Even some yellers. I let the leaves fall off on there own.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 15, 2013)

Very nice Doc. Kudos...


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 15, 2013)

A few weeks later...amazing what a few extra fans can do under a 400.




Long Dong still filling in nicely.

Still trying to figure out this whole popcorn thing. This is a forum not a theater.


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## akula (Jul 16, 2013)

Another defol thread, another that cites a hack site as a guide. Come on guys, GrowWeedEasy is NOT a legitimate guide to growing cannabis. Its a horrible hack site filled with every bad internet wife's tale you can think of. 

RoseyPeach your plant looks like a mother. Has it been used as a mother?


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## HeadieNugz (Jul 16, 2013)

Impman said:


> that is not a real web page. that is made by those advertisement spams to sell spoons or forks or tupperware.


Lol, tubberware. Maybe ill have a visit, i could use some tubberware and a system crippling spyware virus.


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## Impman (Jul 16, 2013)

impmans Theory: No one ever use to defoliate weed until ' The Karate Kid' came out. Everyone was getting stoned and trying to go Mr. Miyagi on their trees. 

No, but seriously, to the moderators: This is how hackers go fishing. They get on RIU and make a controversial thread about defoiliation and put up links to fake webages, trying to get their hooks into someone. Defoiliation is STUPID and made up bullshit. It is a CON, it is crap. Some aholes started the rumor knowing it was bullshit. Now it has become a part of this nutty marijuana grow culture we have, where very little 'REAL ' scientific research has any bearing. 
Many growers on RIU will take what these CON men and hackers post 'as fact' as long as there is a web page.


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## EZmooover (Jul 16, 2013)

Impman said:


> impmans Theory: No one ever use to defoliate weed until ' The Karate Kid' came out. Everyone was getting stoned and trying to go Mr. Miyagi on their trees.


LOL. Thanks for the chuckle...


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 16, 2013)

Impman said:


> impmans Theory: No one ever use to defoliate weed until ' The Karate Kid' came out. Everyone was getting stoned and trying to go Mr. Miyagi on their trees.
> 
> No, but seriously, to the moderators: This is how hackers go fishing. They get on RIU and make a controversial thread about defoiliation and put up links to fake webages, trying to get their hooks into someone. Defoiliation is STUPID and made up bullshit. It is a CON, it is crap. Some aholes started the rumor knowing it was bullshit. Now it has become a part of this nutty marijuana grow culture we have, where very little 'REAL ' scientific research has any bearing.
> Many growers on RIU will take what these CON men and hackers post 'as fact' as long as there is a web page.


If it's posted on the internet and someone repeats it, then it must be true, right?

There's a lot of "made up bullshit" in cannabis forums, the practice of "flushing" before harvest is another one. Perfect opener for the shysters to sell some shit that flushes your pot supposedly making it smoother. 

Amazing how many suckers are drawn to this biz.

UB


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## Impman (Jul 16, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> If it's posted on the internet and someone repeats it, then it must be true, right?
> 
> There's a lot of "made up bullshit" in cannabis forums, the practice of "flushing" before harvest is another one. Perfect opener for the shysters to sell some shit that flushes your pot supposedly making it smoother.
> 
> ...


Well yeah, but look at the Alaskan Gold Rush in the 1800s. Thousands of men flocked to the Alaskan bush with like one pair of socks and shorts on. The smart ones or more like 'hustlers' sold the equipment. Do you think they sold them the practical equipment, just the bare essentials as to not have too much weight??? Hell no! They sold those poor bastards anything and everything, whether it was needed or not. At least the Marijuana hustlers just take newbs money and not also leave a trail of dead gold seekers.


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## roseypeach (Jul 17, 2013)

akula said:


> Another defol thread, another that cites a hack site as a guide. Come on guys, GrowWeedEasy is NOT a legitimate guide to growing cannabis. Its a horrible hack site filled with every bad internet wife's tale you can think of.
> 
> RoseyPeach your plant looks like a mother. Has it been used as a mother?


No it hasn't, I wish 
I'm praying I get a decent yield out of it.
and just so you know, I had absolutely no idea that the info I got was meant as advertisement.
I feel a bit foolish now


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 17, 2013)

Impman said:


> Well yeah, but look at the Alaskan Gold Rush in the 1800s. Thousands of men flocked to the Alaskan bush with like one pair of socks and shorts on. The smart ones or more like 'hustlers' sold the equipment. Do you think they sold them the practical equipment, just the bare essentials as to not have too much weight??? Hell no! They sold those poor bastards anything and everything, whether it was needed or not. At least the Marijuana hustlers just take newbs money and not also leave a trail of dead gold seekers.


A thousand flies on a pile of shit can't be wrong.


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## Impman (Jul 17, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> No it hasn't, I wish
> I'm praying I get a decent yield out of it.
> and just so you know, I had absolutely no idea that the info I got was meant as advertisement.
> I feel a bit foolish now


You are ok ! at least that is just one plant!You need to head over to Uncle Bens Posts, threads , anything UB you can find, read it. You will get a rare bit of honest grow tips. The most scientifically sound information will not be on a Weed Web Page. Google how to grow house plants and or tomato. The worst place, ironically, for a newb to gather information is on newb forum. Also, if you ever see a grow shop, get as far away from the place as possible. they are hustlers.
these are some sound tips from newb to newb. Anytime you see or hear the word Defoiliation it should have the same ring to it as would Paula Dean saying the 'N' word. its a dirty, bad word that only firemen should use.


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## akula (Jul 17, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> No it hasn't, I wish
> I'm praying I get a decent yield out of it.
> and just so you know, I had absolutely no idea that the info I got was meant as advertisement.
> I feel a bit foolish now


Almost every website uses advertisement to earn. Some have good information, some have bad, some have a mix of both. That one simply went out and copied every good and bad technique to growing cannabis that one could find in Google. That is why it is bad. You cant take the site serious when it advocates making flavored weed by adding flavored sugar water (AKA Kool-Aide) to your nute schedule. Other examples with that hack site, but its just that, some hack regurgitating bullshit.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 17, 2013)

Like the old saying goes...If sounds too good to be true it probably is...


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## skunkd0c (Jul 17, 2013)

some folk on RIU say they spending $400-700 on magic stuff each crop just to grow 2kg 
wtf is that all about , snake oils lol 

the hype feeds more hype , i think its best to let hipsters get on with it, if they want to waste their money
these type of people are buying into the idea they will have the edge over other growers if they use these products
they then sell their bud to folk who believe it is better because it was grown with these extra snake oils
you can try to convince them they are wasting their time, but they will not hear it, 
they have invested in these snake oils to give them that edge they seek
i think it gives them some kind of ego boost too thinking their weed is better, they seem to not grasp the fact its all down to personal preference anyway


----------



## ricky6991 (Jul 17, 2013)

Didnt really read through cause ive read all the debate threads on this topic but i can tell you 

i have done the defoliating stuff. Side by side in sealed enviroment with clones off same plant ect... huge difference in yeilds on the plants. my defoliated literally stopped growing width on my buds and pretty much stunted them. Lost about zip an half from those 2 compared to rest.

now i keep all leaves on and green until the end and plants love it.


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## hyroot (Jul 17, 2013)

I have a buddy who does chemy hydro. He has every type of meter. Buys all the expensive chemy general hydro and house and garden line. And defoliates. Mine are soil lliving organics. I use kelp meal, neem meal, rock dust, and crab meal, homemade vermicompost. That's it. When his are done the buds are the size of mine when they are at week 5-6. His buds look beautiful. Not much smell or taste. Not that potent and very harsh. When mine are done they 2-3 times the size of his. 3 times as potent. Much more frosty and colorful. Mine won't even make you cough. He hates on me so tough. Goes around talking mad shit on my buds. Mine are far superior to his. He spends a couple hundred every month. I spend that once every 6-8 months.


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## socaljoe (Jul 17, 2013)

hyroot said:


> I have a buddy who does chemy hydro. He has every type of meter. Buys all the expensive chemy general hydro and house and garden line. And defoliates. Mine are soil lliving organics. I use kelp meal, neem meal, rock dust, and crab meal, homemade vermicompost. That's it. When his are done the buds are the size of mine when they are at week 5-6. His buds look beautiful. Not much smell or taste. Not that potent and very harsh. When mine are done they 2-3 times the size of his. 3 times as potent. Much more frosty and colorful. Mine won't even make you cough. He hates on me so tough. Goes around talking mad shit on my buds. Mine are far superior to his. He spends a couple hundred every month. I spend that once every 6-8 months.


Hard to argue with results...oh wait, no it's not, this is an internet forum. 

Would like to see some pics if you've got any.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 17, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> some folk on RIU say they spending $400-700 on magic stuff each crop just to grow 2kg
> wtf is that all about , snake oils lol
> 
> the hype feeds more hype , i think its best to let hipsters get on with it, if they want to waste their money
> ...


If it costs more to grow it. And you used some cool sounding training technique it must be better...as I roll my eyes.


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## hyroot (Jul 17, 2013)

socaljoe said:


> Hard to argue with results...oh wait, no it's not, this is an internet forum.
> 
> Would like to see some pics if you've got any.


Click on rols link in my sig. My thread


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## socaljoe (Jul 17, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Click on rols link in my sig. My thread


Ah, hiding in plain sight. Will do, thanks.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 17, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> If it costs more to grow it. And you used some cool sounding training technique it must be better...as I roll my eyes.


so many get sucked in 
i see folk growing just a few plants in pots, take pictures of their haul of magic potions in all the pretty bottles and packaging they come in 
in some cases like 6-8 different bottles of stuff just for additives 
looks like they gonna open their own hydro shop lol

often folk who over-complicate these things by using so many additives have average at best looking plants too

i do try to tell them to maybe try without all those additives, and they laugh like i am not aware of the special secret they know about 
oh well , i wont force the issue i just move on 

peace


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 17, 2013)

Who else has defoliated a week before harvest to aid in flushing? Any noticeable difference?


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## legallyflying (Jul 17, 2013)

I remove probably 20% of upper canopy leaves about a week before flip. Then another whack at that about week 4. Light bulbs lack the strength of par that the sun does and I have found that removing some leaves helps plump up and give that nice finished color to more buds. 

For all the people beating the snake oil drum... Who the fuck cares what other people grow with? You guys are now the weed fucking gods? Gods gift to canabis? Yeah. Many a newb gets sucked into this booster and that booster. Your money is much better spent on environmental controls, that much is assured but really...this notion that your all somehow better because of what you don't use.


----------



## Impman (Jul 17, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> I remove probably 20% of upper canopy leaves about a week before flip. Then another whack at that about week 4. Light bulbs lack the strength of par that the sun does and I have found that removing some leaves helps plump up and give that nice finished color to more buds.
> 
> For all the people beating the snake oil drum... Who the fuck cares what other people grow with? You guys are now the weed fucking gods? Gods gift to canabis? Yeah. Many a newb gets sucked into this booster and that booster. Your money is much better spent on environmental controls, that much is assured but really...this notion that your all somehow better because of what you don't use.


its true. im better because i understand NPK value over Bloom Boosters. I also understand that defoiliating a plant is the epitome of STUPIDITY. You are killling you plant for no reason. Keep your leaves green and dont touch your plants leaves if you want to grow quality weed. You will have bigger, more potent buds with the most and greenest foiliage as possible. You shouldnt even have yellow leaves to clip.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 17, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> so many get sucked in
> i see folk growing just a few plants in pots, take pictures of their haul of magic potions in all the pretty bottles and packaging they come in
> in some cases like 6-8 different bottles of stuff just for additives
> looks like they gonna open their own hydro shop lol
> ...


Or just realize it is just an annual...


----------



## legallyflying (Jul 17, 2013)

Impman said:


> its true. im better because i understand NPK value over Bloom Boosters. I also understand that defoiliating a plant is the epitome of STUPIDITY. You are killling you plant for no reason. Keep your leaves green and dont touch your plants leaves if you want to grow quality weed. You will have bigger, more potent buds with the most and greenest foiliage as possible. You shouldnt even have yellow leaves to clip.


Yeah your right. NP and K are the only chemicals in a plant. There is nothing that you could possibly do to increase yields or quality. Never realized leaf area was an index of potency. So much to learn, oh please, teach me the error of my simpleton ways. You see, I'm new at this and only have 3 CFLs on a 8' plant


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## Kite High (Jul 18, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Yeah your right. NP and K are the only chemicals in a plant. There is nothing that you could possibly do to increase yields or quality. Never realized leaf area was an index of potency. So much to learn, oh please, teach me the error of my simpleton ways. You see, I'm new at this and only have 3 CFLs on a 8' plant


good one lf


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## Kite High (Jul 18, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> I remove probably 20% of upper canopy leaves about a week before flip. Then another whack at that about week 4. Light bulbs lack the strength of par that the sun does and I have found that removing some leaves helps plump up and give that nice finished color to more buds.
> 
> For all the people beating the snake oil drum... Who the fuck cares what other people grow with? You guys are now the weed fucking gods? Gods gift to canabis? Yeah. Many a newb gets sucked into this booster and that booster. Your money is much better spent on environmental controls, that much is assured but really...this notion that your all somehow better because of what you don't use.


While I am not into defoliation you spoke the absolute truth. ALL THE ENVIRONMENTAL FACTORS CONTROLLED IS THE KEY. That what gives yield and potency that the genetics are there. Two way street. Can't bring out the awesome genetics if just one factor is out of what and if the code isnt in the genetics environment could be perfect and it will still be crap. 

The biggest mistake I see many growers do is throw a 1000 in a space and it runs at 90F with no co2 and they cry about the yield is low. The Sun couldn't grow good weed if it gets too hot or too dry but these asshats think 1000 watts and they are gonna have the best weed. A well setup op with a 400 and all factors controlled will do better than a 1000 watt jammed in a hot difficult to control environ.

Now on the other hand it I feel is a good thing to share with out fellow growers that I can achieve good as some and better than most with simple fertilizers. I own 3 jugs of Dynagro, those being Foliage pro, Mag Pro and PRotekt. And a 5 lb tub of Jacks Acid Special for the high sulfur supplementation.

You already know my environments are totally controlled and sealed. That and the genetics have me beyond well supplied with better than anything I have ever smoked since I moved here. 

what gets me is when these pompous AN etc fanboys raving about how great AN etc are with the high prices pretty labels and 30 bottles to get your plant to potential, but they know as much about plants as a 3 month old. If you like AN etc and it works for you great knock yourselves out its your $$$. Just dont come saying that since I use a simple inexpensive line of ferts of three bottles and a tub that mine is lackluster while your is the shi I mean because seriously they grow gret in simple shit. LOL
And lf I am in no way implying any of this to you. You grow your ass off.We have a couple a variances in our approach but hey isnt that why theres Ford and Chevy?


----------



## roseypeach (Jul 18, 2013)

as a newb still myself, I did the run out and get nutes thing. I ordered grow big and big bloom. That's all I used last year except for maybe a drink or two of molasses.
this year I am investing in more lights and since I can't have Co2 in the house with my lung issues, I'lll be stocking up on seltzer water.


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## Kite High (Jul 18, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> as a newb still myself, I did the run out and get nutes thing. I ordered grow big and big bloom. That's all I used last year except for maybe a drink or two of molasses.
> this year I am investing in more lights and since I can't have Co2 in the house with my lung issues, I'lll be stocking up on seltzer water.


co2 should be the last thing you need to add. A totally sealed room would solve your health issue.


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 18, 2013)

I've found that removing leaves makes the 'bud leaves' bigger. I've checked it out for a few years now. Lollipopping like UB suggests works well it makes the tops waaaay fatter but removing fan leaves from high up encourages bush in your bud. 
If you cut for bud, remove more that the leaves, remove the entire bud site that's not getting light, not the leaves that are, has worked out much better for me personally but I wouldn't call myself an 'advanced' grower at all. 
If you're training a mommy it's nice to cut some leaves in order to purposefully get bigger leaves on the cuttings, on all my moms the fan leaves go as soon as there is side branching but that's only because I'm a retard and I keep too many moms, been teaching myself LST and I can already see it does the same job of giving me thicker branches for cloning without any cutting or stress.


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 18, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> I remove probably 20% of upper canopy leaves about a week before flip. Then another whack at that about week 4. Light bulbs lack the strength of par that the sun does and I have found that removing some leaves helps plump up and give that nice finished color to more buds.
> 
> For all the people beating the snake oil drum... Who the fuck cares what other people grow with? You guys are now the weed fucking gods? Gods gift to canabis? Yeah. Many a newb gets sucked into this booster and that booster. Your money is much better spent on environmental controls, that much is assured but really...this notion that your all somehow better because of what you don't use.


 I'll take your word for anything after what I've seen you do. RESTECP. I want to move to London and be your apprentice lol.


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 18, 2013)

Kite High said:


> The biggest mistake I see many growers do is throw a 1000 in a space and it runs at 90F with no co2 and they cry about the yield is low.


*But these go to eleven!
*


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 18, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I'lll be stocking up on seltzer water.


 Why? Roots do not absorb CO2.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

If you are able to get direct light to all the leaves on the plant, that would be the best solution 
while the large fan leaves will supply energy all over the plant, the medium sized leaves growing from coals must get light also
each individual cola needs light on all of its leaves to maximize its potential , its no good just having light on the large fan leaves 

if buds are left shaded inside the canopy the bud often grows looking bleached or light green 
the texture of the leaves also changes and the calyx mature rapidly way too early these shaded buds do not reach the full potential 

some kush and indica plants suffer from this, or other plants that do not extend thier colas above the canopy
a canopy of large fan leaves is not the best way to maximise yield in a given space
this is one reason why sativa hybrids will always out yiled indicas in the same space 
as they are able to grow in a shape that allows bud to develop in colas over every branch of the plant

indicas often grow large bottom branches that extend upwards, they do this so they can poke themselves through the canopy 
removing leaves from indiacs is not the answer, often it will cause distorted regrowth , it is very unlikey to improve yield
the best thing that can be done with these plants is to tie the branches out or bend them, no need to snap them
changing the angle of the branches allows light into the canopy so middle buds can green up and become larger than they would in the shade

when it comes to sativa hybrids, i have found seletivly removing some leaves aswell as bending branches helps to get light allover the plants 
for me its is about trying to get as much cola to grow in a given space, i like to spread the bud over many branches rather than a few very large colas
as bud rot is a slight worry with very large colas 

even on outdoor plants they could benefit from having branches tied down to the ground 
when a plant grows in a shape that shades itself, i cant just leave it to be shaded, that would be a crime lol

peace


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 18, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> If you are able to get direct light to all the leaves on the plant, that would be the best solution
> while the large fan leaves will supply energy all over the plant, the medium sized leaves growing from coals must get light also
> each individual cola needs light on all of its leaves to maximize its potential , its no good just having light on the large fan leaves
> 
> ...


 He's giving away his secrets, and I am about to reap the benefits, muahahahahahaha. Now I know how you're thinking I can see what you did by looking at your pics. Spectacular, really. Thanks for the info bro.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

i like to think plants are logical, perhaps i am wrong 

i would like to compare my plants to the model of a computer system, i do this perhaps because i know a lot more about computers than i do plants LOL
what i know about plants is very limited and mostly down to experience not book knowledge or formal qualifications, although i do a fair amount of reading 

think of the large fan leaves as the hard drive, think of the medium sized leaves as the ram, think of the tiny bud leaves as cache 

when the plant requires energy it would be logical for it to first call on the smaller leaves, they wlll offer less energy but the path is much quicker so they can supply energy much faster
this is the same principle as the CPU requesting information it will first check cache directly embedded in the cpu the cache is small but it is a much faster path 
if the cache does not have the information required the CPU then queries Ram, and finally the Hard drive 

if a plant grows with this logical model, it would be a good idea to supply light to all leaves and not just concentrate on the large leaves
or in fact remove any of them, if the leaves are healthy and are able to receive light they will contribute to the plant and be efficient 
if an individual calyx requires energy it could get some of this energy immediately from the small bud leaves in very close proximity to it
or from the larger cola leaves, if the plant has these leaves shaded it would need to move energy much further from larger fan leaves
this model is not logical nor efficient
the only efficent logical way is to supply direct light to all leaves, no part of the green foliage should be left shaded 

are plants logical ? do they take the quickest path to supply energy ?

peace


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 18, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> i like to think plants are logical, perhaps i am wrong
> 
> i would like to compare my plants to the model of a computer system, i do this perhaps because i know a lot more about computers than i do plants LOL
> what i know about plants is very limited and mostly down to experience not book knowledge or formal qualifications, although i do a fair amount of reading
> ...


Well plants and computers mentioned in the same sentence along with ideas like predicting plant growth patterns and what governs them I can't help but mention this:

http://classes.yale.edu/fractals/ 

[video=youtube;yUM7e0tIFi0]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yUM7e0tIFi0[/video]


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

I have to concede to being a biology noob mate, as for computers and electronics , i went to school 
still i am happy with my results, mostly genetic dependent for me, some plants i enjoy greatly 
some are worthless to me, i try to grow what i think i will like, but sometimes the free seeds turn out better
than those i carefully selected and paid for lol


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 18, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> I have to concede to being a biology noob mate, as for computers , i went to school


 That's what I dig about fractal geometry. It can describe the way things, organic things, behave, look, grow in simple mathematical formulae. Fascinating stuff, I've just started digging into it to help with insomnia, got immune to the reefer years ago...


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

nice vid m8 something i have thought myself from my own observations 
the plant given the right conditions and genetics will form colas on every branch of roughly equal size although indicas can be stubborn 

i see the plants as a collection of branches sharing a common root system
each branch could grow big enough and take the same shape as an individual plant grown smaller so each branch is in effect a plant in its own right but still obviously dependent on the same root system 

when a plant is revenged a single shoot growing from a revegged/ rejuvenated bud can grow back into a plant bigger than the original 
all the other shoots can be removed, each shoot could be a plant in the right conditions, this is a fractal nature 

each branch will compete for light they will not work in harmony to share the light 
each branch could be kept on a different photo period at the same time 
the plant as a whole would remain healthy 

this for me makes me view the plant not as a whole, but to break it down in to a collection of individual branches 
treat each branch this way give them all equal light and the plant will yield more than only giving light to the top of the plant 
but that's just obvious the better skilled folk outdoor even tie branches down to the ground from many years ago

many outdoor plants landrace indica left to grow naturally grow a huge cola up top and very little on the other branches 
this is because of the shading pattern of growth these plants take naturally 

sativas grow in a different shape because they are not shaded they can grow like a Christmas tree bottom branches do not need to elongate up to the central cola as they are getting plenty of light 
it makes sense that these plants spread bud all over their frame rather than concentrating it at the tops of elongated branches 

i like smoking indica but i think sativa is superior as a plant since it has managed to adapt itself to virtually every climate on earth, where indica only grows naturally in a few places 
i think these plants more often need a helping hand to get the best out of them


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Kite High said:


> co2 should be the last thing you need to add. A totally sealed room would solve your health issue.


I've used 1,000 watts, no C02 with good ventilation and always had high yields with excellent potency. I guess sealed is different. Only c02 I run is to pump the beer keg in my kegerator.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Why? Roots do not absorb CO2.


Like leaves, roots are a bad thing for bud production ya know.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've used 1,000 watts, no C02 with good ventilation and always had high yields with excellent potency. I guess sealed is different. Only c02 I run is to pump the beer keg in my kegerator.


as long as the air is kept moving and is cool and co2 rich there will be no problems , with hydro its easier as the plants just drink more to cool themselves down
and are automatically watered so i do not need to do anything extra when the temps rise other than add some more fans to keep the air moving 
at the moment, the temps here are high with a mini heat wave lol 

my room is hitting 90f every day now, the plants have started to drink more but are remaining healthy under 1600w
i am now using a total of 400 watts of fans to keep them cool this includes the extractor 

most folk are using room thermometers to measure temperature anyway which doesn't give the full story 
if they were to measure the temp of the leaves directly with a fancy Ir thermometer they would be able to more accurately measure what temps a plant can handle in its given environment 

or just basically hold a leaf nearest to the light source, if the leaf is radiating cold, it should feel cold to the touch, then the plant is fine and can cool itself 
if the leaves feel warm to the touch i would take action and reduce the temps 

peace


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

You can also hang a thermometer in the canopy. If the temp comes up at least 10F cooler, you've got good transpiration going on which means good uptake of water. That's a trick commercial vineyard managers use.

UB


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Like leaves, roots are a bad thing for bud production ya know.


Its not the first time I have heard of someone using tonic water on their plants thinking it was a good thing.


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## legallyflying (Jul 18, 2013)

Hey Kite, are you running bare bulbs or open hoods? I know that you achieve awesome co2 concentration duration as your room is mega sealed. I moved som stuff around and installed a 3.5 ton mini split in my flower room. Somewhere I am getting negative pressure. The panda film is getting sucked off the walls! All the ducting is taped sealed, expanding foam on manifolds, and soft rubber sealing where the light cords pass trough the wall. 

It HAS to be the lights. I'm running 14 block busters cooled by two 8" inlines (7 hoods for each fan, two rows). Thinking about putting some painters tape around the glass and bottom of the hoods but will wait till I switch to HPS in a week (I just flipped). My co2 generator is almost constanty running. 

Any hood sealing tricks that anyone has?


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

Defoliating during veg is perfect to shape your plants into however you want them and slow some branches to even them out before out put them in flowering. They grow more than twice their size in the first 3 weeks of flowering anyway. I grow em to have about 8 nice colas per plant all at the same height and they get huge. I just don't clip anything off the plant after week 2 of flowering, and never fan leaves on branches im keeping once flowering starts. The key is to know what to cut of ahead of time so it does not over grow later, keeping an eye on that is the best. I get my lolipopping and training, and defoliating and pruning all done at the same time when the plants are small. Then I don' t have to do anything later. Haha here look at this:

*Day 2 of Flowering:*



*6 weeks later:*


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Its not the first time I have heard of someone using tonic water on their plants thinking it was a good thing.


Does that surprise you? Hell, those Canna shysters sell CO2 tabs for soil. Fools who do not know or care to know will buy into anything if the claims are well scripted.


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## Impman (Jul 18, 2013)

Hose Water, MG, and potting soil. Harvest pics next week. But I promise you, you will not see dying leaves up inside the buds like the pics above. Those plants look like something out of a horror movie. Scary. You be the judge, which garden is happier?


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## Impman (Jul 18, 2013)

Some N defiency ^^^ Easy fix for my next Cheap A+ garage grow. Keep it simple

Or look.... Some real Pr0n lol VVVVVVVV


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Defoliating during veg is perfect to shape your plants into however you want them and slow some branches to even them out before out put them in flowering. They grow more than twice their size in the first 3 weeks of flowering anyway. I get my lolipopping and training, and defoliating and pruning all done at the same time when the plants are small. Then I don' t have to do anything later.* Haha here look at this:*
> 
> *Day 2 of Flowering:*
> 
> View attachment 2741255


If I didn't know you were serious, I would have thought this was some kind of a joke. Sadly, but it's not. 

Yeah, "Haha here look at this". A couple of indoor mutt shots just for you. 



















Leave the leaves on!

UB


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## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

Dude i wasnt having a contest, i already told you how my power went out how my ac was off for a couple days and my leaves got toasted and some plants fell over. I was showing how to prune differently. Anyway yours look happier, mine look bigger.


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 18, 2013)

Mine are the BIGGEREST!


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## Impman (Jul 18, 2013)

You can buy a 45 day flower nutrient system from budtrader right now!!! Guaranteed to flower your plants in 45 days!!!!

A GENERAL HYDROPONICS based hydroponics formula with a DAY to DAY feeding schedule for the entire life of the plant? This 45 day formula comes with a 90 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE. No questions asked! This formula will make your kush strains fully develop its genetic potential. *Increase weight* *Increase resin* *Increase fragrance* *Increase flavor* Accelerated Hydroponics Formula! Go to www.VeniceKush.com.com for more information and buy it today!?.

Call these dudes up I promise you they will tell you how to defoliate the best possible way. While your at it get a PH pen, a Co2 magic bag, and some liquid light. I bet they stalk their shelves with soda water to Co2 your root system too... only its not called soda water... its called Liquid Alien Root Blaster


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 18, 2013)

These folk are onto something, making huge money out of wankers, good luck to them
this stuff has been sold for over 10 years who is buying it LOL
http://hydrotops.net/products/bioponic-enhancers/triple-f.php this one works out to over £200 per liter and claims up to 50% yield increase 

this one is closer to £300 per kg 
http://www.grotek.net/en/products/product.aspx?id=11

bud enhancers LOL

they also make a flushing solution 

HYDROTOPS BIOPONIC FLUSH 1LTR.
towards the end of the flowering/fruiting phase nutrient intake slows down, yet there are considerable nutrient reserves left in the plant sap. if these levels are are not reduced before the crop is harvested the resulting crop will have a bitter metallic taste.by using bioponic flush to supply the correct ratios of enzymes,organic plant hormones and catalysts,you enable your plant to remove much of the excess nutrient stored prior to harvest

wankers making money off other wankers, hahahaha


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 18, 2013)

Guess stuff like this is what sucks about growing indoors... These are clones that went straight out to flower in January (Southern Hemisphere) at about 30 cm tall. No mess no fuss just a stake or two. Damn I miss it BAD.


----------



## EZmooover (Jul 18, 2013)

Damn, I love this thread!


----------



## rwbrock (Jul 18, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Hey Kite, are you running bare bulbs or open hoods? I know that you achieve awesome co2 concentration duration as your room is mega sealed. I moved som stuff around and installed a 3.5 ton mini split in my flower room. Somewhere I am getting negative pressure. The panda film is getting sucked off the walls! All the ducting is taped sealed, expanding foam on manifolds, and soft rubber sealing where the light cords pass trough the wall.
> 
> It HAS to be the lights. I'm running 14 block busters cooled by two 8" inlines (7 hoods for each fan, two rows). Thinking about putting some painters tape around the glass and bottom of the hoods but will wait till I switch to HPS in a week (I just flipped). My co2 generator is almost constanty running.
> 
> Any hood sealing tricks that anyone has?



I used to tape up my hood had bad air leak with glass in.....Worked well just left a messy tape marks I had to scrub off  I switched over from a recommendation of a friend. Went to hardware store and bought the rubber door sealer tape (self stick) stuff that you use to line the inside of your door frame so no air leaks through the cracks. Now glass is snug! Hope that helps....


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## billy4479 (Jul 18, 2013)

Wow so if I just start removing leaves during flower ill get Way bigger buds ! That's so cool so I mean I wouldn't change my Cytokinins / axuin ratio of the plant stimulating it to grow more leaves and would not slow down my elongation of flower cells which are capable of expanding 700 times the original size and would in no way cause a greater increase in cell division wow amazing why don't they post this stuff in botany books im mean just wow I should burn all my books right now !


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Impman said:


> You can buy a 45 day flower nutrient system from budtrader right now!!! Guaranteed to flower your plants in 45 days!!!!
> 
> A GENERAL HYDROPONICS based hydroponics formula with a DAY to DAY feeding schedule for the entire life of the plant? This 45 day formula comes with a 90 DAY MONEY BACK GUARANTEE. No questions asked! This formula will make your kush strains fully develop its genetic potential. *Increase weight* *Increase resin* *Increase fragrance* *Increase flavor* Accelerated Hydroponics Formula! Go to www.VeniceKush.com.com for more information and buy it today!?.
> 
> Call these dudes up I promise you they will tell you how to defoliate the best possible way. While your at it get a PH pen, a Co2 magic bag, and some liquid light. I bet they stalk their shelves with soda water to Co2 your root system too... only its not called soda water... its called Liquid Alien Root Blaster



"Liquid Alien Root Blaster"? Man, I gotta git me some of dat shit!


----------



## billy4479 (Jul 18, 2013)

"Liquid Alien Root Blaster" just came out with a new product that has electrolytes its what plants crave ..


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 18, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Dude i wasnt having a contest, i already told you how my power went out how my ac was off for a couple days and my leaves got toasted and some plants fell over. I was showing how to prune differently. Anyway yours look happier, mine look bigger.


Was that before or after the flamefest you waged incorrectly alleging I only grow outdoors? 

https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/676034-dont-switch-straight-12-12-a-10.html

Don't fuck with me. Many have "died" trying.

Uncle Ben


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 18, 2013)

billy4479 said:


> "Liquid Alien Root Blaster" just came out with a new product that has electrolytes its what plants crave ..


They did. It produces tasty buds... On the last day of flower, the plant actually dries itself, rolls itself up and blows smoke in your face.
The secret ingredient? Elephant semen. It's got elephantolytes.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 18, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Hey Kite, are you running bare bulbs or open hoods? I know that you achieve awesome co2 concentration duration as your room is mega sealed. I moved som stuff around and installed a 3.5 ton mini split in my flower room. Somewhere I am getting negative pressure. The panda film is getting sucked off the walls! All the ducting is taped sealed, expanding foam on manifolds, and soft rubber sealing where the light cords pass trough the wall.
> 
> It HAS to be the lights. I'm running 14 block busters cooled by two 8" inlines (7 hoods for each fan, two rows). Thinking about putting some painters tape around the glass and bottom of the hoods but will wait till I switch to HPS in a week (I just flipped). My co2 generator is almost constanty running.
> 
> Any hood sealing tricks that anyone has?


Foil tape. I've had the same foil tape on rows of daystars and silverstars for about 5 years. Occasionally it gets a little loose. You hear it as screeeeeech noise. When it happens, just run your finger along it and it seals it up for months. 

If you turn off your air cool fan during lights off it will come loose more often. If you run 24.7 it almost never breaks the seal.

The heat will fuck with most anything you try to seal it with. Not all weather foil tape.. Like I said, if the seal breaks, all you have to do is put a little pressure on it and it's sealed again.

I've wondered if any new reflectors are out there that actually seal perfectly. Mine are all 10+ years old and the seals without foil tape are joke.


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Was that before or after the flamefest you waged incorrectly alleging I only grow outdoors?
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/676034-dont-switch-straight-12-12-a-10.html
> 
> ...


Uncle ben, In the last week I have seen you get 3 separate threads closed single handedly by insulting RIO members directly and instigating argument. The thread in the link you posted in the link above got closed because you think you know everything and are so knowledgable when it comes to weed and gardening of all types and have the right to talk to anyone however you want.. Personally, If I knew as little as you do for someone with 25 to 30 years of experience, I would not be galavanting around the internet claiming i was such a know it all. In that amount of time you should be an expert not posting pictures of a few nice plants with great photo quality. I really don't care that you have a few plants bushed out and spread out and are comparing them to mine, I was going for total yield per area not per plant, two different things. 

Also I see your skinny punk ass hiding behing that plant in your avatar. I would think twice before acting so tough and insulting more ROI members before someone actually uses your posting data then gets the GPS coordinates where you last posted at and come kick your ass and choke you out for real. It's not that hard to get that info btw. But then again, its the internet, where anyone can be a bully and loudmouth ass, and you take full advantage of that.


----------



## roseypeach (Jul 18, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Why? Roots do not absorb CO2.


to spray on the plants. My plants last year did much better when I was spraying them with seltzer water every other day.
This year they suck. I blame the lack of C02 

however, my two top plant outside is doing much better since I did some training on it. Here's what she looks like now..

https://www.rollitup.org/members/roseypeach-371202.html


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 18, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> before someone actually uses your posting data then gets the GPS coordinates where you last posted at and come kick your ass and choke you out for real. It's not that hard to get that info btw.


Seriously dude? Let it go brother. If you disagree then go ahead and play the back and forth troll game. But you're kinda throwing out passive threats here. Not cool.


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 18, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Seriously dude? Let it go brother. If you disagree then go ahead and play the back and forth troll game. But you're kinda throwing out passive threats here. Not cool.


I'm not threatening him and really don't care bout him that much, by the way what is a "passive threat" lol. All I was saying is that every thread he is in he personally singles out individuals and turns everything into my way is better than yours fest and insults a lot of ROI members constantly. I was just saying that one day he's going to insult the wrong person and its going to come back to hurt him. I'm looking out for him dude, if i was that skinny and old i wouldn't be claiming that men have "died" trying to f with me. Its called respect, he gives none, so he gets none, period.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 18, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I'm not threatening him and really don't care bout him that much, by the way what is a "passive threat" lol. All I was saying is that every thread he is in he personally singles out individuals and turns everything into my way is better than yours fest and insults a lot of ROI members constantly. I was just saying that one day he's going to insult the wrong person and its going to come back to hurt him. I'm looking out for him dude, if i was that skinny and old i wouldn't be claiming that men have "died" trying to f with me. Its called respect, he gives none, so he gets none, period.



I'm just saying... collecting personal info about members on this site with malicious intent is not cool. Not just planning to do it... but also talking about it.

I guess it is a term i made up to describe your post. If it doesn't make sense... sorry? I didn't put much thought into it.

*pas·sive*

/&#712;pasiv/
Adjective
Accepting or allowing what happens or what others do, without active response or resistance.

*threat*

/THret/
Noun


A statement of an intention to inflict pain, injury, damage, or other hostile action on someone in retribution for something done or not...: "the family has received death threats"


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 18, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> every thread he is in he personally singles out individuals and turns everything into my way is better than yours fest and insults a lot of ROI members constantly.


Yeah dude... You must be new around here...
Welcome to RIU and meet Uncle Ben. haha.
Dude, there's been one newb after another come on to RIU, stirring up shit with UB and getting all butt hurt.
You're not the first, you won't be the last. I watch his posts along with some others as I catch good bits of gardening info here an there. 
In the process... I've seen countless others get butt hurt. Some of them have been hanging around getting butt hurt for a long time.

good luck.


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 19, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah dude... You must be new around here...
> Welcome to RIU and meet Uncle Ben. haha.
> Dude, there's been one newb after another come on to RIU, stirring up shit with UB and getting all butt hurt.
> You're not the first, you won't be the last. I watch his posts along with some others as I catch good bits of gardening info here an there.
> ...


Yea I seem to be gettin UB all Butt hurt lol, I think he wants to fight me lmao. Thanx for the advice, but sunni, april, and potpimp explained things to me how things go around here so no longer does my butt get hurt i just laugh at all the other butts getting hurt on here. My butt gets sore but never hurts like it used to and im learning to take it ever since they gave me some pointers haha. That's y they the most og pimp gangsters on here


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 19, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Was that before or after the flamefest you waged incorrectly alleging I only grow outdoors?
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/676034-dont-switch-straight-12-12-a-10.html
> 
> ...


HAHAHAHAHAHA I'm starting to enjoy your posts. One thing I can say about you, UB, is there is nought a boring thread with you around. You can accuse UB of many things, but being BORING is not one of them. And in my books, that is a creative contribution. Reminds me of Hunter S. Thompson's alter-ego, Uncle Raoul.

Gotta love a jaded hippy lol.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 19, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Seriously dude? Let it go brother. If you disagree then go ahead and play the back and forth troll game. But you're kinda throwing out passive threats here. Not cool.


Guy plays a lot of double standard, finger pointing games....and has this sideways anger issue going. I give out correct botanical info. It's not my problem that he or anyone else takes issue with it. RIU has it's own set of politics too. Threads get closed because they have long run their course such that the trolling, chest beating, gangbangs get way out of hand.



Pot calls the kettle black said:


> Also I see your skinny punk ass hiding behing that plant in your avatar. I would think twice before acting so tough and insulting more ROI members before someone actually uses your posting data then gets the GPS coordinates where you last posted at and come kick your ass and choke you out for real. It's not that hard to get that info btw. But then again, its the internet, where anyone can be a bully and loudmouth ass, and you take full advantage of that.


That Polaroid scanned photo was taken at least 15 years ago while you was still messin' in yo britches. There's no info to be had. 

No one's gonna choke anyone. You need to chill and stop making such hateful threats, or I'm gonna tattle on your happy leaf pluckin' ass. 

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 19, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Foil tape. I've had the same foil tape on rows of daystars and silverstars for about 5 years.


Good call. If you can't find the heavy, like 2.5" wide foil tape, get down to an A/C contractor or supplier. They'll either give you a piece or sell you a roll. It's used to seal central A/C ductwork seams.

UB


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 19, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> HAHAHAHAHAHA I'm starting to enjoy your posts. One thing I can say about you, UB, is there is nought a boring thread with you around. You can accuse UB of many things, but being BORING is not one of them. And in my books, that is a creative contribution. Reminds me of Hunter S. Thompson's alter-ego, Uncle Raoul.
> 
> Gotta love a jaded hippy lol.


lol he does entertain you're right about that, perhaps UB does have good intentions

only me !
[video=youtube;nkZdTHmX0TQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkZdTHmX0TQ[/video]


----------



## Sativied (Jul 19, 2013)

Liquid Light  Come on, regardless of whether it works or not, that name is too much, they should have called it F. Or G perhaps. Seriously, what's in a name...



HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah dude... You must be new around here...


Yeah clearly the case... registered a month ago - about when the summer started for schoolkids - and already has twice the post I have. Let me guess, most of it is trolling. It's a shame the other thread got locked. I would love to see some more UB vs legallyflying. Both in my top 10 most knowledgeable active members at RIU. Please don't wear each other out though. Sharing knowledge about our beloved plant is not a game.

As for defoliation question, I think the OP fucked up his plants, but the answer is not always a simple yes or no. Just as with flushing, yellow harvest, and a few other controversial topics. That's also why they tend to get out of hand and locked and yet reappear again and again. I know, people like to choose sides, and it seems almost everything is black-and-white to some, but defoliating IS AMC. That's why certain, let's say less advanced MJ cultivators probably shouldn't even be discussing the issue as it only leads to locks. 

In reality it depends, and often on what fits in the rest of the growing methods of the grower. It's not like all the great growers use the same methods throughout the entire cycle. On the contrary, their methods often contradict. Some defoliation can have its merits in certain grows. There are thousands of growers who use scrogging and similar methods to maximize yield and minimize risk on the often little space (grow closets/tents) we have. In my country we got over growing the biggest colas possible, humid climate, big buds tend to rot or get moldy. Instead we aim for many smaller/medium sized buds, dense nuggets (which the customers demand) by going for a lot of bud sites per sqft by scrogging or supercropping for example, in which case 'some' defoliating prevents several oz of popcorn at the bottom and clearly affects yield in a positive way (proper light and photosynthesize from top to bottom... 1gpw doesn't make you a liar unlike here at RIU...). In dense grows, like scrogs, it can also improve airflow by removing some of the older leaves that are getting no or barely any light anyway, or even removing some leaves higher up that would otherwise push against a neighboring bud (causing moist risking rot/mold again). 

I think the lollypopping is silly, cutting half off all leaves etc too, but the answer to whether someone should defoliate (a bit) is not always a flat out NO when it comes to AMC. Don't bother me with theories about what the function of leaves are, that just takes the discussion "out" of AMC, while many advanced MJ cultivators know from experience some defoliation can be the right choice in certain circumstances.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 19, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Seriously dude? Let it go brother. If you disagree then go ahead and play the back and forth troll game. But you're kinda throwing out passive threats here. Not cool.


He has to threaten and hate Hank. Thats all he has to contribute around here.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 19, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> to spray on the plants. My plants last year did much better when I was spraying them with seltzer water every other day.
> This year they suck. I blame the lack of C02
> 
> however, my two top plant outside is doing much better since I did some training on it. Here's what she looks like now..
> ...


Did you know CO2 levels are generally much higher indoor than out? I am not trying to rain on your parade. I just hate seeing people get caught up in gimmicks. 'Power of Suggestion' can be a very compelling thing.

http://www.sciencenews.org/view/generic/id/345791/description/Elevated_carbon_dioxide_may_impair_reasoning


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 19, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> lol he does entertain you're right about that, perhaps UB does have good intentions


Who knows, but as long as guys keep falling for it it's damn funny lol... Handbags At Dawn!! You have to admit a truly creative curse is an artform. Twisted one sure, but I can appreciate it in a comical sense. I mean, here I am, stoned as a date, it'll take red ants down my pants to get a rise out of me, and all these guys getting their panties in a twist over nothing. Makes me feel more stoned lol lol lol....


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 19, 2013)

Guys like UB must live life at a rate of several WTF's a minute cuz that's what happens to me when I read these threads. Amusing stuff really it is.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 19, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> Guys like UB must live life at a rate of several WTF's a minute cuz that's what happens to me when I read these threads. Amusing stuff really it is.


I literally have about 4 windows open at once, posting to different forums, doing emails, etc. 

Here's a few of my tidbits. The can be found following the chatter and noise.  https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/294633-superthrive-superjive-4.html


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 19, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I literally have about 4 windows open at once, posting to different forums, doing emails, etc.
> 
> Here's a few of my tidbits. The can be found following the chatter and noise.  https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/294633-superthrive-superjive-4.html


Would be nice if you were to update your photo catalog with something more current


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jul 19, 2013)

legallyflying said:


> Hey Kite, are you running bare bulbs or open hoods? I know that you achieve awesome co2 concentration duration as your room is mega sealed. I moved som stuff around and installed a 3.5 ton mini split in my flower room. Somewhere I am getting negative pressure. The panda film is getting sucked off the walls! All the ducting is taped sealed, expanding foam on manifolds, and soft rubber sealing where the light cords pass trough the wall.
> 
> It HAS to be the lights. I'm running 14 block busters cooled by two 8" inlines (7 hoods for each fan, two rows). Thinking about putting some painters tape around the glass and bottom of the hoods but will wait till I switch to HPS in a week (I just flipped). My co2 generator is almost constanty running.
> 
> Any hood sealing tricks that anyone has?





HeartlandHank said:


> Foil tape. I've had the same foil tape on rows of daystars and silverstars for about 5 years. Occasionally it gets a little loose. You hear it as screeeeeech noise. When it happens, just run your finger along it and it seals it up for months.
> 
> If you turn off your air cool fan during lights off it will come loose more often. If you run 24.7 it almost never breaks the seal.
> 
> ...





Uncle Ben said:


> Good call. If you can't find the heavy, like 2.5" wide foil tape, get down to an A/C contractor or supplier. They'll either give you a piece or sell you a roll. It's used to seal central A/C ductwork seams.
> 
> UB


I like this foil tape: http://www.musson.com/sales/expendables/tape/miscellaneous/blacktak-foil-tape-2x25-yards.html

It's used in the theatrical lighting industry and rated up to 248°F.

[h=1]Blacktak Foil Tape (2"x25 Yards)[/h]

*Manufactured By: City Theatrical*
*SKU Number: 42-302*
*Price:* *$34.00* / roll
Addto myCart orQuote

[h=6]save and share...[/h]Add to Wishlist or Email to a Friend
​

[h=2]Product Description[/h]Adhesive black foil. Great for masking light leaks. Uses include: masking light spill, creating shadows, forming barndoors, adapting gobos, and as a high temp tape 

 2" wide x 75 feet long
 .002" Aluminum
 .0024" Adhesive thickness
 Clear Acrylic Adhesive
 Min application temperature: 40°F (5°C)
 Working temperature: -40°F to 248°F (-40°C to 120°C)


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

Sativied said:


> Liquid Light  Come on, regardless of whether it works or not, that name is too much, they should have called it F. Or G perhaps. Seriously, what's in a name...
> 
> Yeah clearly the case... registered a month ago - about when the summer started for schoolkids - and already has twice the post I have. Let me guess, most of it is trolling.


Good observation since i posted that its summertime and schools out on a number of my posts. Welcome to the party



Alexander Supertramp said:


> He has to threaten and hate Hank. Thats all he has to contribute around here.


Blow him some more why dont ya



Uncle Ben said:


> I literally have about 4 windows open at once, posting to different forums, doing emails, etc.
> 
> Here's a few of my tidbits. The can be found following the chatter and noise.  https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/294633-superthrive-superjive-4.html


The internet is really all you have LMAOOO i knew it. UB n all those other people that try to flex their grow muscles and not take my input because im new here or disagree with what your saying For a guy thats only been growing for 3 years my plants seem to be doing just as good as your 30 year experience plants.

Why can't you guys just let me post in peace?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 20, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Good observation since i posted that its summertime and schools out on a number of my posts. Welcome to the party
> 
> Why can't you guys just let me post in peace?


600 post in less than 2 months...nice job. Most of which are just spreading the parrot act of misinformation or just down right trolling. Maybe share a pic or two of your uber healthy plants among your ramblings of wisdom?
Here I will help you out. One of 420s uber healthy plants:






For a guy that been growing for 3 years huh? Maybe if you would follow the advice of those with real world experience rather than the advice of a bunch of P happy parrots your plants would look better...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 20, 2013)

Throws a dagger.....



Situation420 said:


> Blow him some more why dont ya


.....and then has the audacity to make this statement.



> Why can't you guys just let me post in peace?


Oh, the irony. 

Hombre, if you can't take the heat and then you best get out of the kitchen.

It is what it is.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 20, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> For a guy that been growing for 3 years huh? Maybe if you would follow the advice of those with real world experience rather than the advice of a bunch of P happy parrots your plants would look better...


Yep, that is some serious leaf scorch. And that kind of scorch, when induced by plant foods, carries over into the smokeability, the quality, of the bud. No worries, he'll "flush" and atone for his sins hehe! 

UB


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 20, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> 600 post in less than 2 months...nice job. Most of which are just spreading the parrot act of misinformation or just down right trolling. Maybe share a pic or two of your uber healthy plants among your ramblings of wisdom?
> Here I will help you out. One of 420s uber healthy plants:
> 
> 
> ...


I gotta know... is that one of your 2+gram per watt grows? I call bullshit.

I'm not hating on you Sit... but you should come clean with those yield numbers... If I remember right you said you were yielding something like 2.3grams per flowering watt? I know you have co2 supp and all... but come on.. you need some really healthy plants to hit those numbers. 

Come clean, this place is great to join and make personal gains... When I started on here with a previous account I was harvesting about 7-8 oz per 600 hps... sharing and learning on here... I'm hitting almost 18 per 600 with my 8 wk skunk cross. No co2 supp, no vertical, just flat aircooled $30 600hps bulbs in reflectors that are 10+ yrs old.

I'm not saying 18 per is all that great. But, it's good enough for me. and it's no bullshit, not inflated. QP plants is what I go for.

I'm branching outside Dyna Gro for a little bit right now.
I'm going back to H&G, which I used some years ago.
So far it's going well. I'm seeing more smaller sites, more stretch... not the huge buds I got from DG... but I think yields will be similar if not the same.
I am supplementing Coco AB with Earth Juice micros. From what I can tell.. these 3 bottles (A,B,EJ) I'm getting a fairly good balance of feed. I'm not getting that dark green growth I got with DG though.

So, 3 years? Have you changed setups a bit? Or have you been running the same setup all 3 yrs?
When I moved indoors a while back I fitted an armoire as a grow cab. It held a 400 w hps and never dropped below 90 degrees... I now use that armoire to dry my crops in... and it barely fits most crops.. haha. I've been through many upgrades.


----------



## Nizza (Jul 20, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Good call. If you can't find the heavy, like 2.5" wide foil tape, get down to an A/C contractor or supplier. They'll either give you a piece or sell you a roll. It's used to seal central A/C ductwork seams.
> 
> UB


Its called mastic tape, venture makes it.
look into mastic seal too, its a brush on temperature /moisture resistant compound that paints on like spackling almost and provides a rubberized seal. If i were to seal a glass to a hood though i'd use the tape because its cleaner and you get more strength from it

be prepared to pay ~30-50$ each for the bucket of mastic or the tape roll


----------



## Nizza (Jul 20, 2013)

ben i use just dyna gro in coco medium, i think you've said you use soil, so heres my question, what is your max nute dosage with the dyna gro and what one do you use? i think i hear u use veg because it is still important to keep healthy , green leaves all throughout flowering. I understand not to defoliate but i usually take off the from the base the bottom 2" of my plants to allow extra airflow, because my plants only get ~ 1 1/4 ft tall and theyre very bushy clones
theyre all clones and i just wanted you opinion on this, and for the record, i totally agree that its important to keep the leaves healthy and on there! If your worried about plants getting more light towards the bottom, train your plants, or top them


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 20, 2013)

^ For haze (nute sensitives) I never do more than 2ml/gal
For hungry plants, never more than 4ml/gal

I would say a good maintenance feed would be 2.5ml/gal....

Early in flower maybe feed 3ml/gal until you get it nice and green with vigorous growth... then move down to about 2 ml/gal every feed.

Maybe do feed, feed, feed, water. You don't need to feed every time.

I do DG in coco. I believe homebrewer does some kind of soiless, peat mix, i think. While homebrewer and others swear by Foliage Pro 9-3-6 in flower, I have had better results with the 7-9-5 Grow... However, so far I have only tried 9-3-6 on haze plants. So far, I have not done real well with haze plants and DG. Homebrewer however has done very well with them. It's different for every grower (I would think)... The specific haze plant I used the 9-3-6 with is kind of a touchy plant. I'm not blaming DG for the haze mishaps... it was the grower (me).

The great thing abot DG is that you really need NOTHING else. It's a great 1 bottle plan.

You can see my results with DG and coco in my grow journals (in my sig).
I ran with DG for maybe 18 months straight. Great stuff.


----------



## Nizza (Jul 20, 2013)

strain will be feminized big bud


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 20, 2013)

Big Bud was one of my first plants to work with. I kept a mother of her in a closet and put them outdoors in May.
I remember her being the kind of plant that wants more feed.

At one time I had a White Widow mother along with the Big Bud and the Big Bud always wanted 2x the feed that the WW did.

BB and WW. Ah, back before we had shisckle bobble berry kush extreme x blah blah blah. haha.

I made a Big Bud x Bubble Berry cross. If I remember right it was a copy of a Sagamartha cross. That plant was great outdoor fun.

Who's Fem Big Bud is it? Mr Nice reworked it and calls it critical mass... I tried to pull a mother out of a pack 1-2 years ago with little success. She must have been super prone to pythium.. I had her growing right along 10 seedling of another variety. All 10 CM flopped over while all 10 of the others went on to produce great plants. Like before, not blaming Mr Nice, pythium comes in by pest or not clean conditions (me).

I was gifted the BB clone back then. But, I'm pretty sure what I got was the BB.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 20, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Big Bud was one of my first plants to work with. I kept a mother of her in a closet and put them outdoors in May.
> I remember her being the kind of plant that wants more feed.
> 
> At one time I had a White Widow mother along with the Big Bud and the Big Bud always wanted 2x the feed that the WW did.
> ...


 I had very good luck with Critical Mass again, bummed to hear it didn't work for you. Mine came out phenomenal, much like the oldschool BB but with a creamy widow-esque flavour added to it. I like it quite oldschool and this just took me back to the late 90's. I really enjoyed both growing and smoking it. ROCK HARD bud too. H.U.G.E main colas it really was jaw-dropping stuff. Plants topped into 4 main colas, yielded like mad things, outdoors I got between 900 grams and 1.3 kilos per plant, DRY.


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> 600 post in less than 2 months...nice job. Most of which are just spreading the parrot act of misinformation or just down right trolling. Maybe share a pic or two of your uber healthy plants among your ramblings of wisdom?
> Here I will help you out. One of 420s uber healthy plants:
> 
> 
> ...


I like how your posting a pic and sayin i think its healthy lmao, far from it, but im not scared to post pics of my plants when they get f'd up. Also your looking at day 39 of flowering, If your so good at growing, you know the pistils swell up over the next 3-4 weeks dramatically so to judge yield off that is actually a testament to your inexperience and desire just to be a dickweed. I wonder what your plants would look like if your power went out and your AC didnt kick on for 2 days because it surged and blew the circuit. I doubt if your plants were left in 100+ heat for 2 days. Most peoples would of died, I saved mine and still am getting a huge harvest. Here's the same plants 2 weeks later, o man so scraggly and shitty....lol


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I gotta know... is that one of your 2+gram per watt grows? I call bullshit.
> 
> I'm not hating on you Sit... but you should come clean with those yield numbers... If I remember right you said you were yielding something like 2.3grams per flowering watt? I know you have co2 supp and all... but come on.. you need some really healthy plants to hit those numbers.
> 
> ...


In that 3 years Iv'e been through 4 flowering setups, 2 veg setups, 2 cloning setups, 3 germinating/seedling processes, and 4 different drying/curing processes. 3 different companies nutrient products, 2 different hydro techniques, and 50 different strains of plants. I am not claiming 2.3 grams per watt. I posted the only pics I had of my plants that were destroyed by heat, everyone can keep calling it nute burn all they want, it just shows me that they dont know wtf they're talking about. I use half strength AN nutes how the f can i nute burn plants running at 1100-1300 ppm? Anyway 2.3 grams per watt is ridiculous, I get anywhere from 1.2-1.4 grams per watt i never claimed 2.3, that is unheard of. I gave the range 1900-2200 grams a harvest off of 1500 watts of light, do the math thats not 2.3.


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 20, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> I had very good luck with Critical Mass again, bummed to hear it didn't work for you. Mine came out phenomenal, much like the oldschool BB but with a creamy widow-esque flavour added to it. I like it quite oldschool and this just took me back to the late 90's. I really enjoyed both growing and smoking it. ROCK HARD bud too. H.U.G.E main colas it really was jaw-dropping stuff. Plants topped into 4 main colas, yielded like mad things, outdoors I got between 900 grams and 1.3 kilos per plant, DRY.


wasn't my fav smoke but BB has amazing vigour big colas and huge yield in 7 weeks 
this one is a BB X NL

















































peace


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

Thats how u do it, can u harvest in 49 days? or do u wait a little more?


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 20, 2013)

Jeez Doc not only do you grow some great bud but your pics are friggin excellent. Always makes me feel like a bong lol... I've only got a phone camera and seeing as I lost my nice one to bongwater (don't ask) all I can capture is a vague reefer-ish blur.

And how do you deal with HID? I always get these stripes across the pic, and intense yellowing unless I move the plant somewhere.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 20, 2013)

yep 7 weeks is fine it taste sweeter at 7 weeks at 9 weeks its pine overload very piney lol not really my cuppa tea to be honest, i am not keen on smoking it
i passed it on to another grower who does very large SOG runs he is happy with its performance 

peace


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> if you can't take the heat and then you best get out of the kitchen.


Proof you are an old man who says that anymore? lol


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> yep 7 weeks is fine it taste sweeter at 7 weeks at 9 weeks its pine overload very piney lol not really my cuppa tea to be honest, i am not keen on smoking it
> i passed it on to another grower who does very large SOG runs he is happy with its performance
> 
> peace


you should just do pineapple express it only takes 7 weeks too but has a fruity sweet taste and gets just as big. the highs awesome too


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 20, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> Jeez Doc not only do you grow some great bud but your pics are friggin excellent. Always makes me feel like a bong lol... I've only got a phone camera and seeing as I lost my nice one to bongwater (don't ask) all I can capture is a vague reefer-ish blur.
> 
> And how do you deal with HID? I always get these stripes across the pic, and intense yellowing unless I move the plant somewhere.


the strips are because your camera has the shutter speed too low so you see the flicker 
in very bright light, the camera will automatically lower the shutter speed, and the aperture and iso 
if you want to take pictures under a HID you need to increase the shutter speed, but lower the aperture and the iso manually 
taking pics under hps is not good the white balance on most cameras is shit, you can take nice pics under MH or CFL just set the colour setting to florescent

also mate if you take pics inside without much lighting, just regular house lights, you should also use a flash 
when you take pics in low light without a flash, there is a very high chance the picture will be blurry unless you have very steady hands or a tripod 
most cameras have lens stabilization/ anti blur built in but it doesn't work very well
much better to use the flash indoor if you cant get good light on the plants for pictures

peace


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 20, 2013)

Whats the best way to use an iPhone camera? thats what i got but i have a lifeproof case over it. help me take better pics, any advice is cool


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 20, 2013)

phone cams are not so good, but you will still get good pics if you get the right spread of light on your plants when you take the pics
most bad growroom pics are due to poor lighting in the room rather than a shitty camera, most cameras take great pics outdoor even on auto settings 

if you have a MH or a cfl you can turn that on when you take the pics, dont 'shine it directly over the plants let it reflect onto them if you can
you need to play around with the manual settings of the camera even a phone has some manual settings, the auto settings only really work well outside under natural light on a nice day


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 20, 2013)

Reckon I'm going to look around on ebay and get something decent. Enough sound gear now, well almost... Eyeing some Crown VZ5000's so after that I'm DEFINITELY getting one. It'll be nice to participate here fully.

My phone camera is USELESS because I got the cheapest one I could find. I have bad phone mojo. Last iPhone I had ended up in a pint of beer.


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 20, 2013)

if you can move your plants to a well lit room with some nice sun coming in, you really cant help but take good pics mate
not so easy for me, or s420 i don't think he can move his plants either to take pics 

most cams around £100 today are good enough mate for outdoor pics in good light


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 20, 2013)

... what I'm thinking I want to do is get something NICE so I can get a decent flash, I want to mount it on a tripod a bit out of the way and take a pic or two a day, perhaps right at lights off which is easy enough. I'd love to make a time-lapse film from starting the LVBK run till the first cycle at least is finished. It'll be EPIC, you'll see the Tahoe fatten up and finish the last 3 cycles too (I run a perpetual harvest, 2 week cycle). 
Yup. That would be EPIC.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 20, 2013)

...Dealt with photography, strains, sealing hoods, a fistfight (almost), foil tape, nutes, and a whole bunch of stuff I forgot about. I pity the guy that types 'defoliation' into the search box he has no idea what he's in for lol...


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 20, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> ...Dealt with photography, strains, sealing hoods, a fistfight (almost), foil tape, nutes, and a whole bunch of stuff I forgot about. I pity the guy that types 'defoliation' into the search box he has no idea what he's in for lol...


You could bet good money mate 90% of these types of defoliation/leaf removal threads are started with the devious intent of trolling UB into blowing another head gasket 
i don't know why he seems to keep falling for it , i think he likes squabbling


----------



## Nizza (Jul 20, 2013)

vision seeds big bud feminized
thanks! !


----------



## Nizza (Jul 20, 2013)

vision seeds big bud feminized
thanks! !


----------



## Sativied (Jul 20, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> You could bet good money mate 90% of these types of defoliation/leaf removal threads are started with the devious intent of trolling UB into blowing another head gasket
> i don't know why he seems to keep falling for it , i think he likes squabbling


Come on... 'you' cannot change your avatar. I'm going to miss those cups. Nice one though, hmmmm...


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## skunkd0c (Jul 20, 2013)

Nice work on the avi winterfag !

I was not aware of a winterfag problem, school is usually in session during these times


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jul 20, 2013)




----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 20, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> In that 3 years Iv'e been through 4 flowering setups, 2 veg setups, 2 cloning setups, 3 germinating/seedling processes, and 4 different drying/curing processes. 3 different companies nutrient products, 2 different hydro techniques, and 50 different strains of plants. I am not claiming 2.3 grams per watt. I posted the only pics I had of my plants that were destroyed by heat, everyone can keep calling it nute burn all they want, it just shows me that they dont know wtf they're talking about. I use half strength AN nutes how the f can i nute burn plants running at 1100-1300 ppm? Anyway 2.3 grams per watt is ridiculous, I get anywhere from 1.2-1.4 grams per watt i never claimed 2.3, that is unheard of. I gave the range 1900-2200 grams a harvest off of 1500 watts of light, do the math thats not 2.3.


You're right. I must suck at math...
I remember us chatting before about your yield and I was adding it up to over 2 g per watt.
my bad.
I was having a hard time taking anything you said seriously because of that math error.
Haha, sorry bout that.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 20, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> wasn't my fav smoke but BB has amazing vigour big colas and huge yield in 7 weeks
> this one is a BB X NL
> 
> 
> ...


Very nice..


----------



## budbro18 (Jul 21, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> ... what I'm thinking I want to do is get something NICE so I can get a decent flash, I want to mount it on a tripod a bit out of the way and take a pic or two a day, perhaps right at lights off which is easy enough. I'd love to make a time-lapse film from starting the LVBK run till the first cycle at least is finished. It'll be EPIC, you'll see the Tahoe fatten up and finish the last 3 cycles too (I run a perpetual harvest, 2 week cycle).
> Yup. That would be EPIC.



You should get the canon t3i. its only around $500 new so you could probably find a well priced used one.

there is a team called Magic Lantern which is basically like the evasion or redsnows of apple but with Canon.

They give you features like intervolometer to do timelapses and alot more that Canon holds back to protect the higher end cameras and gear.


----------



## Mad Hamish (Jul 21, 2013)

budbro18 said:


> You should get the canon t3i. its only around $500 new so you could probably find a well priced used one.
> 
> there is a team called Magic Lantern which is basically like the evasion or redsnows of apple but with Canon.
> 
> They give you features like intervolometer to do timelapses and alot more that Canon holds back to protect the higher end cameras and gear.


That is really good info to get! I didn't even know where to start looking, it's pretty overwhelming if you know jack shit lol. Much, much appreciated!!!


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 21, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> You could bet good money mate 90% of these types of defoliation/leaf removal threads are started with the devious intent of trolling UB into blowing another head gasket
> i don't know why he seems to keep falling for it , i think he likes squabbling


The art of TRUE trolling lol lol lol... It's like mentioning running to my old high-school accounting teacher. Jaded pro runner he was, would amuse us by going off the rails for a whole period. Once you know where the button is it's hard not to push it... Especially a big, red button.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 21, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> The art of TRUE trolling lol lol lol... It's like mentioning running to my old high-school accounting teacher. Jaded pro runner he was, would amuse us by going off the rails for a whole period. Once you know where the button is it's hard not to push it... Especially a big, red button.


Sounds like your accounting teacher and me have something in common - we hate stupidity and in cannabis forums there's plenty of it going around.

UB


----------



## budbro18 (Jul 21, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> That is really good info to get! I didn't even know where to start looking, it's pretty overwhelming if you know jack shit lol. Much, much appreciated!!!


No problem.

just youtube any of the stuff i mentioned and there are reviews and what not


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 21, 2013)

I equate the Defoliators with the same ilk as this exuberant auctioneer having sold a priceless Ming vase for 1 million euros! 


[video]http://www.youtube.com/embed/3e0yZCLjwfU?rel=0[/video]


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## Situation420 (Jul 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I equate the Defoliators with the same ilk as this exuberant auctioneer having sold a priceless Ming vase for 1 million euros!
> 
> 
> [video]http://www.youtube.com/embed/3e0yZCLjwfU?rel=0[/video]


You can control hormones within the plant cells better with defoliation if you know what you are doing.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 22, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> You can control hormones within the plant cells better with defoliation if you know what you are doing.


Please share your research to back your claim up...


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 22, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> *1.* You can control hormones within the plant cells better with defoliation* 2. *if you know what you are doing.


1. No you can't,

2. No, you don't.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. No you can't,
> 
> 2. No, you don't.


His statement is all the research you need to back your 2 claims up UB!


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 22, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> 1. No you can't,
> 
> 2. No, you don't.


Yes you do. Uncle ben and your butt buddy in the magic schoolbus fan club are so misinformed when it comes to defoliation, no wonder all you do is bash it, it's beyond your old school growing rules of thumb and actually based on science! Time to get educated in recent scientific information ( well, 1970's ). If you cared to listen to people more often rather than think your so awesome, you might improve your growing techniques a little. Whats the point of thinking your the best and never improving? I have not heard a reasonable explanation out of you yet for why your topping method works better than defoliation. Let me explain for you Uncle ben a little bit on how it works.

You ever hear of Absisic Acid?It is a chemical compound that regulates stem and bud growth and bud and seed dormancy. Absisic acid is primarily produced in the leaves of the plant inside the chloroplast and it controls hormonal concentration in the apical meristem that alters the last set of leaves in a stem into a leaf covered protection system for the flowers. Even though Absisic Acid is chemical compound it still functions like a hormone. When it degrades or catobolizes (i think thats how you spell it) it affects the metabolic rates effecting cell growth and the production of other hormones in the plant. When a plant is in its seedling stage, the Absisic Acid levels are at its highest, then as the plant matures, the Absisic acid levels begin to decline. Once the plant produces offshoots with fully functioning leaves, the Absisic Acid levels in the plant begin to increase, that slows down growth in more mature areas of the plant. 

EDIT: I think by removing the leaves UB where the Absisic Acid is produced, you are regulating hormonal concentrations in the plant. Or is this too hard for you to understand?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 22, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Yes you do. Uncle ben and your butt buddy in the magic schoolbus fan club are so misinformed when it comes to defoliation, no wonder all you do is bash it, it's beyond your old school growing rules of thumb and actually based on science! Time to get educated in recent scientific information ( well, 1970's ). If you cared to listen to people more often rather than think your so awesome, you might improve your growing techniques a little. Whats the point of thinking your the best and never improving? I have not heard a reasonable explanation out of you yet for why your topping method works better than defoliation. Let me explain for you Uncle ben a little bit on how it works.
> 
> You ever hear of Absisic Acid?It is a chemical compound that regulates stem and bud growth and bud and seed dormancy. Absisic acid is primarily produced in the leaves of the plant inside the chloroplast and it controls hormonal concentration in the apical meristem that alters the last set of leaves in a stem into a leaf covered protection system for the flowers. Even though Absisic Acid is chemical compound it still functions like a hormone. When it degrades or catobolizes (i think thats how you spell it) it affects the metabolic rates effecting cell growth and the production of other hormones in the plant. When a plant is in its seedling stage, the Absisic Acid levels are at its highest, then as the plant matures, the Absisic acid levels begin to decline. Once the plant produces offshoots with fully functioning leaves, the Absisic Acid levels in the plant begin to increase, that slows down growth in more mature areas of the plant.
> 
> EDIT: I think by removing the leaves UB where the Absisic Acid is produced, you are regulating hormonal concentrations in the plant. Or is this too hard for you to understand?


It spelled Abscisic by the way. And I think you have its functions within a plant a bit off.

*Functions of Abscisic Acid*
The following are some of the phyysiological responses known to be associated with abscisic acid (Davies, 1995; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).


Stimulates the closure of stomata (water stress brings about an increase in ABA synthesis). 

Inhibits shoot growth but will not have as much affect on roots or may even promote growth of roots. 

Induces seeds to synthesize storage proteins. 

Inhibits the affect of gibberellins on stimulating de novo synthesis of a-amylase. 

Has some effect on induction and maintanance of dormancy. 

Induces gene transcription especially for proteinase inhibitors in response to wounding which may explain an apparent role in pathogen defense. 


Your take on its function is pretty ass backwards too me...


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 22, 2013)

and the connection to defoliation, how do you figure? Its easy to assume when connecting the dots...but in the real horticultural world it just happens it does not work that way...


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 22, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> It spelled Abscisic by the way. And I think you have its functions within a plant a bit off.
> 
> *Functions of Abscisic Acid*
> The following are some of the phyysiological responses known to be associated with abscisic acid (Davies, 1995; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).
> ...


How is it ass backwards? It is produced in the leaves and you left out the fact that it mediates changes in the apical meristem.


Alexander Supertramp said:


> and the connection to defoliation, how do you figure? Its easy to assume when connecting the dots...but in the real horticultural world it just happens it does not work that way...


It is normally produced in the leaves of the plant or did your google search leave that out for you? If it has such significant effect on hormonal regulation like you just stated in your previous post, then how does it not have anything do with regulating plant growth? Unlike you ,I am not copying and pasting internet sources, I learned it in a classroom and lab. You didn't explain anything, you just copied and pasted some of the known functions of abscisic acid rather than provide any input. Thank you for you informative google search post

HAHA wtf r u talking about a real horticulture world? Im talking about plants, and your talking about some fairytale reality. Shut up this is science dumbass haha


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 22, 2013)

I still fail to see the connection. When you connect the dots you should end up with a recognizable picture...


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 22, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> I still fail to see the connection. When you connect the dots you should end up with a recognizable picture...


Your either messing with me or just dont get it. I explained it to you, and you even partially explained it yourself with that copy and paste post of yours on Abscisic Acid. What are all these dots your talking about. I said it in plain english how it works, and you still havn't added anything lol. I can tell you just troll UB and wait for his responses and outa you 2 hes the one i should be talking to. Not wasting my time talking to someone who doesn't even understand what I explained to them.


----------



## roseypeach (Jul 22, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> You could bet good money mate 90% of these types of defoliation/leaf removal threads are started with the devious intent of trolling UB into blowing another head gasket
> i don't know why he seems to keep falling for it , i think he likes squabbling


then I guess you would consider this thread in the last ten percent.

I am going to post an update on the plant I worked on in just a few minutes so you all can see her progress.


----------



## hexthat (Jul 22, 2013)

Situation420 if you want to do some crazy shit to improve your buds floral spray with 3ml-4ml per gallon of SUPERthrive 

0_0 i do it

*+ make sure you add some potassium hydroxide till the pH is 6.7-6.8*


----------



## roseypeach (Jul 22, 2013)

The lighting sucks and my camera broke so these were taken with my cell phone, so sorry for the lack of detail.
I started Snowstorm today  the last shot looks sort of like foxtailing, the foliage went nuts so that's when I decided to defoliate to try and get more light to the bud site.


----------



## hexthat (Jul 22, 2013)

dude your feeding that thing way too much


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 23, 2013)

hexthat said:


> Situation420 if you want to do some crazy shit to improve your buds floral spray with 3ml-4ml per gallon of SUPERthrive
> 
> 0_0 i do it
> 
> *+ make sure you add some potassium hydroxide till the pH is 6.7-6.8*


Isn't that shit bad to use after the first couple weeks of flowering though? 

Edit :and generally used only if a plant is having health issues or immature compared to others the same age


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 23, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> The lighting sucks and my camera broke so these were taken with my cell phone, so sorry for the lack of detail.
> I started Snowstorm today  the last shot looks sort of like foxtailing, the foliage went nuts so that's when I decided to defoliate to try and get more light to the bud site.
> View attachment 2746590View attachment 2746591View attachment 2746592View attachment 2746593View attachment 2746594View attachment 2746595View attachment 2746596


Where did your fan leaves go? lol


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 23, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Your either messing with me or just dont get it. I explained it to you, and you even partially explained it yourself with that copy and paste post of yours on Abscisic Acid. What are all these dots your talking about. I said it in plain english how it works, and you still havn't added anything lol. I can tell you just troll UB and wait for his responses and outa you 2 hes the one i should be talking to. Not wasting my time talking to someone who doesn't even understand what I explained to them.


Abscisic acids only plays one role in your defoiliation technique, as a stress reliever. And maybe if you were breeding seeds along with your raping of plants you could make a connection.
Your explanation is simply you twisting something into something its not to fulfill your purpose or need.


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 23, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> The lighting sucks and my camera broke so these were taken with my cell phone, so sorry for the lack of detail.
> I started Snowstorm today  the last shot looks sort of like foxtailing, the foliage went nuts so that's when I decided to defoliate to try and get more light to the bud site.
> View attachment 2746590View attachment 2746591View attachment 2746592View attachment 2746593View attachment 2746594View attachment 2746595View attachment 2746596


Snowstorm and defoliation. Can't think of a better recipe for disaster. 

The bud sites don't need light. They are not capable of photosynthesis. The leaves you just plucked do (did).

Man, some of you guys have this thing so ass backwards it's unbelievable.


----------



## hexthat (Jul 23, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Isn't that shit bad to use after the first couple weeks of flowering though?
> 
> Edit :and generally used only if a plant is having health issues or immature compared to others the same age


I guess, idk its not like i sell my weed i smoke pounds of it and i dont think its bad for you

i highly doubt that all it is Vitamin B1 and NAA, it has multiple uses


----------



## roseypeach (Jul 23, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Snowstorm and defoliation. Can't think of a better recipe for disaster.
> 
> The bud sites don't need light. They are not capable of photosynthesis. The leaves you just plucked do (did).
> 
> Man, some of you guys have this thing so ass backwards it's unbelievable.


I am still learning, so how about laying off with the insults


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 23, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> The lighting sucks and my camera broke so these were taken with my cell phone, so sorry for the lack of detail.
> I started Snowstorm today  the last shot looks sort of like foxtailing, the foliage went nuts so that's when I decided to defoliate to try and get more light to the bud site.
> View attachment 2746590View attachment 2746591View attachment 2746592View attachment 2746593View attachment 2746594View attachment 2746595View attachment 2746596


that's not looking too great is it
where do you think you went wrong ?


----------



## roseypeach (Jul 23, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> that's not looking too great is it
> where do you think you went wrong ?


A combination of things really, too much nitrogen too late and not enough lights. A lot of the fan leaves were dying off, I thought it was because it was close to harvest but it wasn't. It started revegging when I put it outside early on and forgot to bring it back in for a couple of days.


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 23, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Abscisic acids only plays one role in your defoiliation technique, as a stress reliever. And maybe if you were breeding seeds along with your raping of plants you could make a connection.
> Your explanation is simply you twisting something into something its not to fulfill your purpose or need.


This is how I know your ignorant. The role of Abscisic acid still isn't fully understood. What you showed me about Abscisic Acid was from a study done in 1992, LOL that was over 20 years ago! stop being such an ass I already explained how it slows down growth in more mature areas of the plant, allowing newer growth to occur at a higher rate on more mature areas of the plant. Also, the interactions absicisic acid has on phytohormones is far more complex than simply putting it into a list form like you are of just 6 points

That stress relief your talking about is when the plants are stressed by a lack of water uptake right? That is one thing that you got correct. There are so many other roles abscisic acid plays on plant growth besides the 6 you listed. Can you stop being a douche and just admit you are not that educated on the effects hormones have on plant growth, besides the "basics" UB talks about every no and then


----------



## hyroot (Jul 23, 2013)

Nature of Abscisic Acid Abscisic acid is a single compound unlike the auxins, gibberellins, and cytokinins. It was called "abscisin II" originally because it was thought to play a major role in abscission of fruits. At about the same time another group was calling it "dormin" because they thought it had a major role in bud dormancy. The name abscisic acid (ABA) was coined by a compromise between the two groups. Though ABA generally is thought to play mostly inhibitory roles, it has many promoting functions as well(Arteca, 1996; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).

References

History of Abscisic Acid In 1963, abscisic acid was first identified and characterized by Frederick Addicott and his associates. They were studying compounds responsible for the abscission of fruits (cotton). Two compounds were isolated and called abscisin I and abscisin II. Abscisin II is presently called abscisic acid (ABA)(Addicot, 1963). Two other groups at about the same time discovered the same compound. One group headed by Philip Wareing was studying bud dormancy in woody plants. The other group led by Van Steveninck was studying abscission of flowers and fruits from lupine. Plant physiologists agreed to call the compound abscisic acid (Salisbury and Ross, 1992).

Biosynthesis and Metabolism ABA is a naturally occurring compound in plants. It is a sesquiterpenoid (15-carbon) which is partially produced via the mevalonic pathway in chloroplasts and other plastids. Because it is sythesized partially in the chloroplasts, it makes sense that biosynthesis primarily occurs in the leaves. The production of ABA is accentuated by stresses such as water loss and freezing temperatures. It is believed that biosynthesis occurs indirectly through the production of carotenoids. Carotenoids are pigments produced by the chloroplast which have 40 carbons. Breakdown of these carotenoids occurs by the following mechanism: Violaxanthin is a carotenoid which has forty carbons. It is isomerized and then split via an isomerase reaction followed by an oxidation reaction. One molecule of xanthonin is produced from one molecule of violaxanthonin and it is uncertain what happens to the remaining biproduct. The one molecule of xanthonin produced is unstable and spontaneously changed to ABA aldehyde. Further oxidation results in ABA. Activation of the molecule can occur by two methods. In the first method, an ABA-glucose ester can form by attachment of glucose to ABA. In the second method, oxidation of ABA can occur to form phaseic acid and dihyhdrophaseic acid. The transport of ABA can occur in both xylem and phloem tissues. It can also be translocated through paranchyma cells. The movement of abscisic acid in plants does not exhibit polarity like auxins. ABA is capable of moving both up and down the stem (Walton and Li, 1995; Salisbury and Ross).

Functions of Abscisic Acid The following are some of the phyysiological responses known to be associated with abscisic acid (Davies, 1995; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).

Stimulates the closure of stomata (water stress brings about an increase in ABA synthesis). Inhibits shoot growth but will not have as much affect on roots or may even promote growth of roots. Induces seeds to synthesize storage proteins. Inhibits the affect of gibberellins on stimulating de novo synthesis of a-amylase. Has some effect on induction and maintanance of dormancy. Induces gene transcription especially for proteinase inhibitors in response to wounding which may explain an apparent role in pathogen defense.

You are wrong sit. Absidic acid slows inhibits (slows or stops) growth...


----------



## skunkd0c (Jul 23, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> A combination of things really, too much nitrogen too late and not enough lights. A lot of the fan leaves were dying off, I thought it was because it was close to harvest but it wasn't. It started revegging when I put it outside early on and forgot to bring it back in for a couple of days.


yeh i was gonna say it looks re-veg sounds like she has had quite a lot to contend with


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 23, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> This is how I know your ignorant. The role of Abscisic acid still isn't fully understood. What you showed me about Abscisic Acid was from a study done in 1992, LOL that was over 20 years ago! stop being such an ass I already explained how it slows down growth in more mature areas of the plant, allowing newer growth to occur at a higher rate on more mature areas of the plant. Also, the interactions absicisic acid has on phytohormones is far more complex than simply putting it into a list form like you are of just 6 points
> 
> That stress relief your talking about is when the plants are stressed by a lack of water uptake right? That is one thing that you got correct. There are so many other roles abscisic acid plays on plant growth besides the 6 you listed. Can you stop being a douche and just admit you are not that educated on the effects hormones have on plant growth, besides the "basics" UB talks about every no and then


You can try and sell your take on it all you want. But I doubt ANYONE besides yourself is buying it. Like I said you are randomly connecting the dots creating a picture only you can recognize.


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## roseypeach (Jul 23, 2013)

skunkd0c said:


> yeh i was gonna say it looks re-veg sounds like she has had quite a lot to contend with


She has 
I've stopped all nutes except the Snowstorm.We'll see I guess.


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 23, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I am still learning, so how about laying off with the insults


It's just how he talks. Think of him as an alien with tourettes and it looks a lot better. Like let's say I would say: "I don't think you should use chemical nutes", he'd say: Goddamn how you people haven't learned by now that you NEED your soil micro-organisms for proper chelation and you assholes are killing all the good bugs with your hillbilly voodoo *insert some scientific shit* so good luck with that". 

Don't take it too personally, we all get it sometime. Especially if you mention you're learning still, he pounces, like a tiger in the night...


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## Situation420 (Jul 23, 2013)

hyroot said:


> Nature of Abscisic Acid Abscisic acid is a single compound unlike the auxins, gibberellins, and cytokinins. It was called "abscisin II" originally because it was thought to play a major role in abscission of fruits. At about the same time another group was calling it "dormin" because they thought it had a major role in bud dormancy. The name abscisic acid (ABA) was coined by a compromise between the two groups. Though ABA generally is thought to play mostly inhibitory roles, it has many promoting functions as well(Arteca, 1996; Mauseth, 1991; Raven, 1992; Salisbury and Ross, 1992).
> 
> References
> 
> You are wrong sit. Absidic acid slows inhibits (slows or stops) growth...


I never said abscisic acid directly contributes to plant growth, it regulates the hormones that do. That is what you guys are missing. It was also called abscisic acid because it was found in high concentrations of leaves that just fell of a plant or were "abscissed" therefore originally was thought to contribute to leaf drop . What do you think is happening when growth is inhibited somewhere in a plant? The hormone that balances that hormone triggers new growth in a different area of the plant. The ABA just controls hormonal responses in the plants. Thats what I was saying. I think you guys missed that or just dont understand. Even the fact that you provided hyroot partially explain this process.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 23, 2013)

Once upon a time, in a small village in India, lived six blind men. One day they heard excited talk about an elephant that had wandered in to the village.

Having no idea of what an elephant was, they went to satisfy their curiosity. The blind men stood around the elephant so they could touch and feel the animal.

The blind man who happened to be near the leg and felt it with his hands exclaimed that the elephant was certainly a pillar. The one who touched the tail disputed that and was emphatic that the elephant was a rope. The one who stroked the trunk could not agree as to him the elephant was a tree trunk. The one who touched the ear thought the others were clueless as the elephant was surely a huge fan. The man with his hands on the belly could not understand how anyone could mistake the wall he felt for anything other than a solid wall. And the sixth man feeling the tusk proclaimed the elephant was a pipe. No one could agree and they argued passionately, angrily.

An old man passing by asked what was going on. They all told him what they thought the elephant was and how the rest had to be wrong. The old man explained to them that they were all partially right. Just as we have arms, legs, trunk, face, the body of the elephant also has different parts. Each blind man had felt a different part of the body, not the whole body. The arguments stopped and the blind men went their way satisfied with the answer.


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## Julius Caesar (Jul 23, 2013)

Don't let your buds become retarded!
[video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]


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## SchmokinOnTrees (Jul 24, 2013)

I agree with leaving your leaves on , but did you hear what said about it slowing the growth ? I think if you defoliate properly you could control the evenness of your plant canopy, say if you have height restrictions and want to slow down vertical growth the first week of flowering so the nodes glow closer together. But never remove leaves after week 2 starts of flowering unless you are cutting off overgrowth within the plant


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## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

SchmokinOnTrees said:


> I agree with leaving your leaves on , but did you hear what said about it slowing the growth ? I think if you defoliate properly you could control the evenness of your plant canopy, say if you have height restrictions and want to slow down vertical growth the first week of flowering so the nodes glow closer together. But never remove leaves after week 2 starts of flowering unless you are cutting off overgrowth within the plant


Thats what im saying, there are times to defoliate and its beneficial, and times when it is not. It's not just black and white like they are trying to make it.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

SchmokinOnTrees said:


> I agree with leaving your leaves on , but did you hear what said about it slowing the growth ? I think if you defoliate properly you could control the evenness of your plant canopy, say if you have height restrictions and want to slow down vertical growth the first week of flowering so the nodes glow closer together. But never remove leaves after week 2 starts of flowering unless you are cutting off overgrowth within the plant


Dormancy and retarding growth are two different things. Why would you want to make your plant go dormant? I read nothing in any of the studies on abscisic acid that say it retards growth. Again you are making connections that do not exist, just were you want them to be. Plus he claimed you could control the flow of auxims with defoliation which is also unfounded and complete BS. Dont be like some and fall under the magical spell of false analogies....


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> She has
> I've stopped all nutes except the Snowstorm.We'll see I guess.


Do you have ANY leaves left? If so, it won't be long before they're gone. 

Also, you said you used too much N, too late. This is the time when you should be using more N, like a 9-3-6, not some frickin' snake oil that contains massive amounts of K which will work against you buy inducing leaf necrosis. Learn some botany and get off the snake oil teats. They're only out to take your money, you boob.

What was the source for that N, what food? (IOW, aint buying it).

Now, a wise man would heed what I'm trying to TEACH. A fool just ignores my experience. (Remember, I told you so.)

I report, you decide,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Defoliating is a sign of mental illness.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Julius Caesar said:


> Don't let your buds become retarded!
> [video=youtube;xYq7CuVpAeo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYq7CuVpAeo[/video]


That's mah buddy!


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I am still learning, so how about laying off with the insults


Here's a clue, but please keep this discussion in this thread.
https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/151706-uncle-bens-topping-technique-get-242.html


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 24, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Dormancy and retarding growth are two different things. Why would you want to make your plant go dormant?


Because in cannabis forums "right is wrong and wrong is right." 

Most folks want to finish up their gardens quickly, but not these guys.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> LMAOOOO ok uncle ben, if he is your buddy, why when i explained why a 10+ difference in day night temperatures did you tell me to GTFOuta here with my Jorge Cervantes grow bible bullshit. Your such a douchebag and if jorge saw that i doubt hed want to be friends anymore or is this how you treat all your friends and that is why you now spend all your time on the internet haha


Just like your growing skill your smack talk really needs a lot of work also.


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## skunkd0c (Jul 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Now, a wise man would heed what I'm trying to TEACH. A fool just ignores my experience. (Remember, I told you so.)UB


Hmm, experience, as in first hand personal anecdotal experience ? 
or experience based on your professional qualifications or a mixture of both 

reminds me of that old saying, "those who can DO those that can't Teach

i notice that in many sectors of the workplace, it is experience (those that do or who are doing) that trumps formal qualifications, 
(those that have learned much theory but lack "doing" 

employers cry about university graduates having no experience in the real world , or lacking common sense, 
"just give me someone that can actually do the job" is fairly common for them to say
although i am not suggesting this is a universal rule, or we would have anecdotal doctors performing brain surgery on folk

where does growing pot fit into the grand scheme of things
somewhere between rocket science and brain surgery perhaps ?

peace


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 24, 2013)

Truth hurts huh little buddy!


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## Situation420 (Jul 24, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Nor the Amish.....


 you guys and your old man jokes


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## roseypeach (Jul 24, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Do you have ANY leaves left? If so, it won't be long before they're gone.
> 
> Also, you said you used too much N, too late. This is the time when you should be using more N, like a 9-3-6, not some frickin' snake oil that contains massive amounts of K which will work against you buy inducing leaf necrosis. Learn some botany and get off the snake oil teats. They're only out to take your money, you boob.
> 
> ...


I like your post on topping, it's good, I have topped a few plants since I started growing a few years ago. 
I am appreciative of your experience, I really am. I do need to learn more botany. I've started but as I stated before,
I am still learning.

I do have leaves left, the ones I took off were either dead or dying and I was sure it was because it was close to harvest, since I started it the same time as my last harvest. As I said earlier though, she got left outside for a couple of days (back in May) so she started revegging which fucked the harvest time up for it. 

The source of N was expired coffee grounds. I had placed some on my SD that is still vegging and mindlessly threw some on this plant too. Dumbass mistake.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 25, 2013)

I think the revegging is what's fucked you the most in this whole grow.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 25, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> The source of N was expired coffee grounds. I had placed some on my SD that is still vegging and mindlessly threw some on this plant too. Dumbass mistake.


Say what? There's no N in coffee grounds, nothing of real value. How many leaves do you have left, enough to promote flowering? It takes 13-15 leaves to ripen a cluster of grapes. Are you getting it yet?

I gave you advice of how to correct your mistakes so what do you do? Screw them up even more with Snowstorm.

You'll just have to learn the hard way....as most do here.

Good luck,
UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I think the revegging is what's fucked you the most in this whole grow.


 I've revegged before and nothing got "fucked up".


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 25, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I like your post on topping, it's good, I have topped a few plants since I started growing a few years ago.
> I am appreciative of your experience, I really am. I do need to learn more botany. I've started but as I stated before,
> I am still learning.
> 
> ...


Read the first page at least - https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis.html


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## Impman (Jul 25, 2013)

*de·fo·li·ate* (d




-f








l




-




t




)_v._ *de·fo·li·at·ed*, *de·fo·li·at·ing*, *de·fo·li·ates*
_v.__tr._*1. *To deprive (a plant, tree, or forest) of leaves.
*2. *To cause the leaves of (a plant, tree, or forest) to fall off, especially by the use of chemicals.

_v.__intr._To lose foliage.


Chemical defoliation has historically been a weapon of warfare. Dropping defoliants onto enemy territory accomplishes several goals which can further a military objective. The first is the destruction of food crops, which can cause social unrest and lead to pressure to end the war. The second is the deprivation of cover; with no leaves to hide behind or under, enemy soldiers will be easier to identify. This tactic can also be demoralizing, which undermines public support for the war.

You guys going to war with your weed plants?

LOL ... google ' What is defoliation?' to get a good laugh. Only Bonzai trees comes up and then a few posts from stoners that are probably teenagers growing weed on their neighbors roof or in the creek behind the house


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 25, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I've revegged before and nothing got "fucked up".



I'm not saying that revegging in general will fuck things up, but if you reveg for a week in the middle of flowering like the OP did, things can get pretty fucked up.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 25, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm not saying that revegging in general will fuck things up, but if you reveg for a week in the middle of flowering like the OP did, things can get pretty fucked up.


And just how "fucked up" can they get?


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## Situation420 (Jul 26, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm not saying that revegging in general will fuck things up, but if you reveg for a week in the middle of flowering like the OP did, things can get pretty fucked up.


It takes forever to revert a plant back to veg. I tried reverting clones I took from a plant flowering in week 2 back to veg just to experiment and see if it was possible and placed the cutting under a light for 24 hrs a day. Even with that amount of light, once the plant grew it roots, the clone still grew more pistils and the flowers got bigger (very slowy but still did) under the 24/0 light. This was over 3 week period I saw this go on. I think this is what Uncle Ben is saying is that it is going to take a lot longer than 1 week of messing up a light cycle to mess a plant up that badly. Plus, a messed up light schedule does not destroy leaves that badly either lol.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 26, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I think this is what Uncle Ben is saying is that it is going to take a lot longer than 1 week of messing up a light cycle to mess a plant up that badly. Plus, a messed up light schedule does not destroy leaves that badly either lol.


I wasn't using clones but several times both in and outdoors I could get a pretty fast reversion back to veg response with seedlings by increasing N with long days, short nights. I planted about 13 Mex outdoors and sexed them by covering them religiously with garbage cans. Took about a week to sex, I pulled the males mid-summer but it only took about 2 weeks to revert back to veg and keep on trucking until the longer nights of mid August initiated the flowering response once again. Harvested in November.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 26, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> It takes forever to revert a plant back to veg. I tried reverting clones I took from a plant flowering in week 2 back to veg just to experiment and see if it was possible and placed the cutting under a light for 24 hrs a day. Even with that amount of light, once the plant grew it roots, the clone still grew more pistils and the flowers got bigger (very slowy but still did) under the 24/0 light. This was over 3 week period I saw this go on. I think this is what Uncle Ben is saying is that it is going to take a lot longer than 1 week of messing up a light cycle to mess a plant up that badly. Plus, a messed up light schedule does not destroy leaves that badly either lol.


We're not talking about a total reveg being what happened here. The plants were put in a veg light schedule for a few days during flowering, so likely they slowed in producing flowers, and started a bit of veg growth. Then it was quickly put back in flower, and got it's growth pattern all confused. Likely buds will be non-uniformly ripened and fluffy. It's pretty obvious to me what happened here, and the reveg was only one part of the problem, but a substantial one. That said, I see no use in arguing over this thing.


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## Situation420 (Jul 27, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You are correct Kite, the punk has nothing to back up his claims. So he resorts little rants in order to redirect attention away from the subject at hand...


Alex, how come no one ever wants to debate or argue with you but your always right there in the middle of someone else's discussion. I never see you contribute relevant information to a thread, just antagonize the members that are already arguing. Its seems like you have no opinions of your own and no passion. Just a mindless, self doubting, opinion-less, lurch, that sees what his friends are up to and jumps on the band wagon. When are we going to have to see you talk about something that your interested in rather than just follow your "friends" around and like all of their responses and try to stir up more trouble lol?


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## Situation420 (Jul 27, 2013)

SchmokinOnTrees said:


> Now I'm not expierienced or anything but I read what situation was saying about pulling off leaves during the seedling phase. I do it myself and it works. I don't know about hormones but when you pull the leaf off it makes the stem grow faster compared to the rest of the plant as it would normally giving that branch a chance to get longer before it is covered by the canopy. I can't explain why but it's true


You are right, however, this is only true during the seedling stage from what I have noticed. If you take off fan leaves later in the plants life, you are going to slow down growth to that part of the plant you removed the leaves from. I only defoliate when the plant is less than 1.5-3 weeks old. I prune after that and just let leaves fall off on their own.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 27, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> My so called claims are backed by solid research available to anyone almost anywhere. Maybe instead of running your mouth you should run your ass into a class or two because your low brow is showing.


I'm with Kite, you have shown us nothing but a big mouth spewing noise. Now, have some balls and show us your wonderful plants and names of your wonderful textbooks that have reinvented the botanical wheel. 

You have no credibility nor honor as it stands now with the long term seasoned growers at RIU. You have earned the reputation as the Village Troll. It's up to you to redeem yourself. 

Your choice......


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 27, 2013)

sir.ganga said:


> i will no longer waste my time with these idiots because even with solid evidence they refuse to admit that they need help with their pitiful grows.



If you show the solid research/ proof, then the argument is over. It's that simple guys.

If you can't show it, then stop saying it exists. If you are making these claims as something that has not been proven, ok, but you keep saying there is proof.


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## Kite High (Jul 28, 2013)

After 1 hour of googling I found not a shred of evidence as to its ability to increase production.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 28, 2013)

Nothing defoliated here Sit420, just topped.. And remember tops are different than main colas.


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## Imaulle (Jul 28, 2013)

^that's an amazing looking plant !!


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## MYOB (Jul 28, 2013)

There is a pretty interesting thread over on icmag that has several photos of defoliation techniques producing impressive yields. If youre getting over a gram per watt and defoliationg, it would be safe to say that its not harming the plant. At least not its ability to produce flowers.


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## SchmokinOnTrees (Jul 28, 2013)

I defoliate my basil plants so they grow back and put them on my pizza


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## roseypeach (Jul 28, 2013)

MYOB....can you point me to the article? thanks for letting us know! ready to learn more every day. Don't do it UB.


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## Fazer1rlg (Jul 28, 2013)

Yeah I would like a link to the article also!


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

MYOB said:


> There is a pretty interesting thread over on icmag that has several photos of defoliation techniques producing impressive yields.


Means nothing. I use Paclo and get impressive yields. 



> If youre getting over a gram per watt and defoliationg, it would be safe to say that its not harming the plant. At least not its ability to produce flowers.


It IS harming the plant but until you understand the function of a leaf and plant processes you won't ever get it.

What's this silly and meaningless forum paradigm of gram/watt? What if I'm using a super duper new shiny hood and you're using a rust bucket? Another forum paradigm, a very crude and meaningless way of measuring yields using an erroneous value. It means squat in the real world.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

SchmokinOnTrees said:


> I defoliate my basil plants so they grow back and put them on my pizza


I top when they flower so they'll branch out and use the leaves on pizza.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

Imaulle said:


> Defoliation is just an excuse for dumb fucks to remove the leaves that they cannot maintain if their life depended on it.


Yeppers!!!


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## Fazer1rlg (Jul 28, 2013)

Haha


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Nothing defoliated here Sit420, just topped.. And remember tops are different than main colas.


That is a well pruned/trained plant! Nice job. Flat across the top....will produce an easily managed bushy plant. If it weren't for the long internodes I'd be inclined to take out one more node down on the trunk but I see you already have secondary output in the axis of the nodes. I also see where you clipped that output to nubs. Why is that? To allow the side branches to become more dominant....even out the profile? If you had left them (the branches) they would have surely remained dominant giving you a rounded canopy instead of flat across. I'm talking months from now.

UB


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## Sativied (Jul 28, 2013)

I wouldn't remove a single leave from that plant either, considering the few small ones it has now. I grow bigger leaves than than in the first weeks under 3x18w CFL... Looks like a waste of veg time... not a well-trained plant. 



Imaulle said:


> Defoliation is just an excuse for dumb fucks to remove the leaves that they cannot maintain if their life depended on it.


Hating on any form or amount of defoliation is just an excuse for folks that aren't able to grow a thick amount of large leaves in the first place. 

I can see why the other guy isn't posting any pics - you guys are so full of yourselves anyway, no amount of pic or cold hard proof will change that. I barely ever pull a leaf from my plants unless it's nearly dead, I rather prune a branch earlier/planned, yet I see many 1gpw+ growers who defoliate a good amount and grow A quality stuff from top to bottom (oh hell no you don't want me to show you pics from them... that would be too much reality for you to handle). 

You ask for evidence while your own opinions on the matter are highly subjective, to your own situation, setups and methods. Defoliating as standard practice to improve yields is obviously silly, lollypopping is just nuts, but:



Kite High said:


> After 1 hour of googling I found not a shred of evidence as to its ability to increase production.


I'm all for scientific evidence, but unlike you obviously, I know plenty of commercial growers who've done more than a few indoor cycles and know from years of experience that if they don't defoliate a little they end up with less money. Simple as that. Google won't help you with everything. You can talk about photosynthesizes and make silly comparisons to wings of butterflies, the reality is that there's more to it, more factors to consider. Like moist and possibly dew on overlapping leaves, leaves pushing against buds, leaves preventing proper air/co2 flow, and yes, fuck those old outdated guides - they block light to lower budsites. 3 or 4 bigger-than-my-hand fan leaves stacked on top of each other tend to do that... 

"Canopy control"...


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 28, 2013)

Thanks UB. And yes I nub the upper most node leaving just the fans to maintain an even canopy. Heres a untopped plant that represents the round look. No defoliation and it rounding out nicely.



A few months later its all even near perfect. Still no defoliation. Yet I still get that nice even canopy just below the main cola. One of the very things they claim to control with defoliation. 

A 6 dollar bag of fert and living in the ghetto and I am still growing circles around those 'little mother pluckers'!


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## roseypeach (Jul 28, 2013)

Update on Girl 2/LaziBessi


she's showing signs of still hanging in there with me, so that's good enough for me. I'm just really unsure of the flower maturity. It's worrying me those buds have been sitting there so long doing nothing. I'm feeding a solution of Big Bloom and Snowstorm, bare minimum requirements. Doesn't she look a little happier to you? 


The light was terrible in the office so I brought her outside on the porch for some love. Misted her and fluffed her up some. She is much happier I think. Still no flowers to speak of on three of the tops, so she isn't gonna yield very well. It's cool, I have a diesel not too far behind it, and a decent dealer on hand if need be


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## budbro18 (Jul 28, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> Update on Girl 2/LaziBessi
> 
> 
> she's showing signs of still hanging in there with me, so that's good enough for me. I'm just really unsure of the flower maturity. It's worrying me those buds have been sitting there so long doing nothing. I'm feeding a solution of Big Bloom and Snowstorm, bare minimum requirements. Doesn't she look a little happier to you?
> ...



It looks like its getting too much N. Id switch to tiger bloom with a little big bloom in it. Also cut back the snow storm to only once every week or 2.


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## Situation420 (Jul 28, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> A few months later its all even near perfect. Still no defoliation. Yet I still get that nice even canopy just below the main cola. One of the very things they claim to control with defoliation.
> 
> 
> A 6 dollar bag of fert and living in the ghetto and I am still growing circles around those 'little mother pluckers'!


You only use the 6 dollar bag because the $50 bag is half your rent! lmao and also, can i point out to everyone, that defoliation isn't beneficial once the plant is flowering. The only time you should defoliate is during veg, thats what i've been saying this whole time, i think a lot of people are missing the point. Its not just simply defoliate or not defoliate.


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## Situation420 (Jul 28, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> A 6 dollar bag of fert and living in the ghetto and I am still growing circles around those 'little mother pluckers'!


Nice, I grew this in some dirt i dug outa my backyard and mixed in *$1* worth of miracle grow soil then grew it under a couple cfl lights in my closet. All i needed to add was some water which i collected from the rain. I got the seed from a bag so I didn't have to waste money on that either. In total, The light cost me $50 but I got 4 harvests out of it already so it paid for itself by now and my nutes cost me maybe a *$1.50 total* . Here is what i have going now for pennies guys,
*pennies.*


----------



## hyroot (Jul 28, 2013)

Read Straight out of a horticulture 110. And experimental botany oxford journals.

Defoliation or damage to foliage will increase sucrose development yet deplete yield. Without full foliage. Gas exchange is altered. Optimal gas exchange needed to process sucrose in carbohydrates to usable energy.

Result of defoliation is like eating a bunch of twinkies or sugar and sitting on the couch. Not being active. Building fat not muscle and energy.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 28, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> You only use the 6 dollar bag because the $50 bag is half your rent! lmao


So... you ignore the request for this proof and instead resort to jokes about someones income? 
Nice.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 28, 2013)

Is it just me or is Page 26 not accessible. I click on 26 and it takes me to 25. I even googled page 26 of the thread and it took me to 25.
What's up with that?
I'm thinking insults were thrown and it was a better option than closing the whole thread?


----------



## woody333333 (Jul 28, 2013)

nothing special on page 26


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## Kite High (Jul 28, 2013)

Sativied said:


> I wouldn't remove a single leave from that plant either, considering the few small ones it has now. I grow bigger leaves than than in the first weeks under 3x18w CFL... Looks like a waste of veg time... not a well-trained plant.
> 
> 
> Hating on any form or amount of defoliation is just an excuse for folks that aren't able to grow a thick amount of large leaves in the first place.
> ...


Then their setup sux if they need to remove leaves to improve yields in their setup. Doesn't make it that defoliation is good. Just that their setup sux so to get yield they have to fuck up the plants. Had they set it up correctly then it wouldn't be required and the would produce more. But you overlook this fact and btw what does being a commercial grower prove other than they grow for money?


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## Imaulle (Jul 28, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Is it just me or is Page 26 not accessible. I click on 26 and it takes me to 25. I even googled page 26 of the thread and it took me to 25.
> What's up with that?
> I'm thinking insults were thrown and it was a better option than closing the whole thread?


ha! probably what I said. UB quoted me on the top of page 27


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 28, 2013)

Fuck it. Whatever works best for you setup. Do it.

I promise you guys though... If you are seeing improved yields in your setup with pulling off a bunch of leaves over not doing so... you have some other issues and you're not seeing the full potential of your plants.

Jmo

Let me know if that "solid proof" or "solid research" shows up. I'm tired of asking for it and tired of you ignoring the request. I have doubts that you'll ever produce it. Why? Almost definitely, because it doesn't exist. I could troll you all year for this proof and it will never show.


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## MYOB (Jul 28, 2013)

Here is a link to the thread I mentioned:

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=3


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## Fazer1rlg (Jul 28, 2013)

MYOB said:


> Here is a link to the thread I mentioned:
> 
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=3


I think I've seen this one. I wouldn't believe this keeftreez guy he claims 12 oz plants and they definitely don't look like any 12 oz plants I've seen.

I see a qp max on his shit and he's claiming 12 ozs? His plants don't even completely fill that screen. His defoliated plants are so stunted they didn't fill it out. He isn't using his whole screen that's not very efficient. I would steer far away from this dudes claims those look like 5 oz plants max.


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## Kite High (Jul 28, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> I think I've seen this one. I wouldn't believe this keeftreez guy he claims 12 oz plants and they definitely don't look like any 12 oz plants I've seen.
> 
> I see a qp max on his shit and he's claiming 12 ozs? His plants don't even completely fill that screen. His defoliated plants are so stunted they didn't fill it out. He isn't using his whole screen that's not very efficient. I would steer far away from this dudes claims those look like 5 oz plants max.


yes old news and refutes the benefits in very apparent ways


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## Fazer1rlg (Jul 28, 2013)

Kite High said:


> yes old news and refutes the benefits in very apparent ways



Definitely old news I read this one 2 years ago.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

situation420 said:


> nice, i grew this in some dirt i dug outa my backyard and mixed in *$1* worth of miracle grow soil


wtf? .


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

MYOB said:


> Here is a link to the thread I mentioned:
> 
> https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=3


SOS, just a different day in cannabis forum newbie world. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=26

Thread closed. Guess Cornell University was too much for them.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 28, 2013)

Imaulle said:


> ha! probably what I said. UB quoted me on the top of page 27


Say what? I haven't posted to IC Rag in 8 years.


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## Imaulle (Jul 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Say what? I haven't posted to IC Rag in 8 years.


he was talking about page 26 of this thread


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## Chronic Masterbator (Jul 28, 2013)

I think selective defoliation is ok. I try not to. I rather tuck the leafs blocking bud sites. If I can't tuck the ones blocking bud sites from light I clip em.

Think about it. If defoliation was bad... Wouldn't toping be just as bad?


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## Imaulle (Jul 28, 2013)

p.s. posts are getting deleted from this thread


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## sunni (Jul 28, 2013)

Imaulle said:


> p.s. posts are getting deleted from this thread


hmm perhaps some should think before they type inappropriate excessive foul language to other users.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 28, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> SOS, just a different day in cannabis forum newbie world. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=26
> 
> Thread closed. Guess Cornell University was too much for them.


Actually if you look at the last post of the closed thread, you will see the true reason:



> After reviewing more than 100 pages of posts it seems there will never be agreement between anyone about this technique. So the thread has been closed, and no longer stickied so that it may fall thru the cracks into obscurity.
> 
> Further such devoted trolling and fighting in open threads will result in some folks departing this site - such a lack of respect for other members of this site is truly disturbing.


This is just as true in that thread as it is in this thread and the others on defoliation. It's sad, and as mentioned "truly disturbing". This the exact reason I have chosen to steer clear of this type of debate as of late. Grow up kids.


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## Kite High (Jul 28, 2013)

Well since the Nazis have now appeared unsubbed


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## MYOB (Jul 29, 2013)

I was only referring to the photographs of the technique being used and the subsequent above average yields. 

At least it proves that it isn't as harmful to the plant as the "solar panel" crowd might have us think. Unless the poster used fake photographic evidence just to stick it to the solar panel people.

Speaking of th solar panel analogy, how would your rooftop solar panels do in a 4x4' grow room under a 600w HPS?

it would perform and produce exactly the same I assume, and absolutely no consideration would need to be given to the extreme change in environment. 

Of course not. So lets stop using this as "evidence". I mean, if detailed documentation that includes pictures of the process and result aren't admissible...

but what do I know? I am a newbie. I would have thought cutting a young plants main growth shoot off, including secondary branches and any leaves on the chop zone, I would have thought this would kill a plant. At least negatively affect yield. Boy, was I wrong. 

And intentionally damaging, bending, twisting, or crushing branches, turns out the plant grew MORE when I did that!

that can't be botanically proper.


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## MYOB (Jul 29, 2013)

Not calling anyone out in particular btw, just find the leaf people to be devout to the point of militancy. 

I was very pro-leaf until I got botrytis and a quarter pound of dainty buds last harvest. 

This time the leaves weren't so lucky....

well see what happens in a few weeks.


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 29, 2013)

This should be a sticky in all the forums, closed thread with just the first post:

https://www.rollitup.org/support/47767-attention-users-will-not-tolerated-15.html

Personally I only 'clicked' the ethic or 'code of conduct' here when I read it and even though I had my little freak-out before that I've kept it very civil ever since. Communities have got taboos you know.


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## Situation420 (Jul 29, 2013)

I still haven't heard why defoliating during veg, when there is a size limit to how big the plant can get indoors, it is not just an alternative technique to topping with different results. Who's saying that defoliating during flowering is a good thing? Only selectively removing branches during week one of flowering has any benefits on bud development, after that you're missing out on all that rapid flowering budding site growth.


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 29, 2013)

I say whatever floats your boat. Well grow differently. My mommy tent is SOOOO packed right now I had little choice but to take some fan-leaves. LST'd all I could, topped a while ago. I need strong CLONES. And I need them from the limited space I have. Just letting the things bush out and grow me looooong-ass thin stalks does me NO good. If it was outdoors I wouldn't touch a single leaf. 
And it works for me, each branch getting all the light it needs and fattening up the way I like them to be. Perhaps not IDEAL, but better than just leaving them. Best I can do for them right now till I've selected the ONE. She'll then get all the space in the tent, and be treated a lot differently.


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## Situation420 (Jul 29, 2013)

Another point to bring up, dont people defoliate sometimes to give their roots an advantage when transplanting? I'm going to sleep but im pretty sure that has to do with some way of using the roots in a ratio to a certain amount of foliage to increase survival rate, and increase adaptation/new growth of the plant.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I still haven't heard why defoliating during veg, when there is a size limit to how big the plant can get indoors, it is not just an alternative technique to topping with different results. Who's saying that defoliating during flowering is a good thing? Only selectively removing branches during week one of flowering has any benefits on bud development, after that you're missing out on all that rapid flowering budding site growth.


Back peddling a bit are we?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Another point to bring up, dont people defoliate sometimes to give their roots an advantage when transplanting? I'm going to sleep but im pretty sure that has to do with some way of using the roots in a ratio to a certain amount of foliage to increase survival rate, and increase adaptation/new growth of the plant.


Now in full reverse...speeding away from his original claims of magical hormonal control among other earlier claims.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 29, 2013)

Imaulle said:


> he was talking about page 26 of this thread


# of pages differ on the browser you use. For me this thread is 15 pages long.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 29, 2013)

MYOB said:


> I was very pro-leaf until I got botrytis and a quarter pound of dainty buds last harvest.


Suggests to me a genetic thingie (sativa type buds) and insufficient air movement for your ambient RH.

UB


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## nameno (Jul 29, 2013)

I've made my decision on whether to or not,don't want to talk about that.
I want to know when is best to do?
I did a side by side and the first thing I noticed was the amount of leaves that came back,looked like more than I started with.
So from that I figure once I start I got to keep it up.
How do you avoid the stall that I believe Roseycheek is going through now,or is that the price for more buds?
The last thing I've noticed (so far) was the roots,I had a bucketfull to throw away,any more & would have been a problem.
Can anyone defoliate without the stall?
Thanks for any help in advance.
GL&HY to all.


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## Situation420 (Jul 29, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Back peddling a bit are we?


 how can i back peddle if we never got anywhere in the first place? and how bout you answer the question instead of derailing a derailment further


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## Situation420 (Jul 29, 2013)

nameno said:


> How do you avoid the stall that I believe Roseycheek is going through now,or is that the price for more buds?
> The last thing I've noticed (so far) was the roots,I had a bucketfull to throw away,any more & would have been a problem.
> Can anyone defoliate without the stall?


That's exactly how to describe what happens. The growth of the plant seems to "stall" but its not, its generating new growth sites all over then those take off once the foliage support is there again to provide the energy for rapid growth. That's the trade off, however, why would you want to stall a plant that is in flowering? why not just have plants vegging while the others are flowering? That's my whole point to why you should only defoliate in veg. In flowering you just lose out on harvest size if you defoliate after that first week of flowering. Defoliating should only be done when there are no buds growing yet.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

Here are few links that may be responsible for many of the misguided defoliation claims. The following links are not flawed. Rather its how some interpret them...

http://msucares.com/crops/cotton/discussion.html
http://faculty.ucr.edu/~harejd/papers/potatoyield80.pdf
http://forages.oregonstate.edu/nfgc/eo/onlineforagecurriculum/instructormaterials/availabletopics/management/defoliation
http://www.ars.usda.gov/SP2UserFiles/Place/64200500/csr/ResearchPubs/balkcom/balkcom_10c.pdf
http://cuke.hort.ncsu.edu/cucurbit/wehner/articles/art028.pdf
http://ag.arizona.edu/crop/cotton/cropmgt/crop_defoliation.html
http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/dissertations/AAI8118174/

You can pick and piece connecting the dots just the way you want too coming to your fitting conclusion. Bottom line is none of this is even REMOTELY connected to the cultivation of a C3 annual, more specifically cannabis. These scholarly papers are found buried by pages and pages of cannabis forum claims of the so called benefits of defoliation.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

Claims of increased yield are often based and measured on many different levels. But it seems 'gram per watt' is the norm for cannabis growers. But grams per watt is a very undefined and not practical. Maybe 'grams per watt hour' would be a more tangible way to measure yield. Watt hour being defined by the number of hours a particular wattage light is run in conjunction with a particular grow. This would include both veg and flowering hours. Kinda makes 'gram per watt' useless as a means of defining a grow huh?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Another point to bring up, dont people defoliate sometimes to give their roots an advantage when transplanting? I'm going to sleep but im pretty sure that has to do with some way of using the roots in a ratio to a certain amount of foliage to increase survival rate, and increase adaptation/new growth of the plant.


This generally is done to correct an early mistake, a lanky seedling. Party cup to next pot kinda thing. Its a win-win for both plant and grower.


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## patlpp (Jul 29, 2013)

I just think if you yank leaves off and they grow back, the damn plant needs it so much it's willing to expend the energy to re-create it.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 29, 2013)

And a very simple request...just a basic guideline on where to get started defoliating for increased yields. We all are well aware of your claims. And I am very certain many have done their own research only to come to the same conclusion. There just seems to be no common ground. other than increased yields, among the defoliation gang across the forums and internet. Just throw us old fucks a soft bone, maybe some chewy kibble......


----------



## PJ Diaz (Jul 29, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> And a very simple request...just a basic guideline on where to get started defoliating for increased yields. We all are well aware of your claims. And I am very certain many have done their own research only to come to the same conclusion. There just seems to be no common ground. other than increased yields, among the defoliation gang across the forums and internet. Just throw us old fucks a soft bone, maybe some chewy kibble......


That's not really true. The main commonality I've seen is increased air circulation. Personally I wouldn't support the increased yield argument, however it's hard to argue with the better circulation part of the equation. When I did a side by side of clones I saw almost identical yield. 87 to 90 grams per plant in 1.75 gallon pots.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 29, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> The main commonality I've seen is increased air circulation.


And just how increased was it?


----------



## hyroot (Jul 29, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Claims of increased yield are often based and measured on many different levels. But it seems 'gram per watt' is the norm for cannabis growers. But grams per watt is a very undefined and not practical. Maybe 'grams per watt hour' would be a more tangible way to measure yield. Watt hour being defined by the number of hours a particular wattage light is run in conjunction with a particular grow. This would include both veg and flowering hours. Kinda makes 'gram per watt' useless as a means of defining a grow huh?


Per par watts. How many grams per umole/s / watts2 or gram per kwh. With horizontal hps grows, most pull 0.6 gpw and with vert grow 1.5 -2 gpw. Par t5 1 gpw. Led 1.5- 3 gpw. I agree grams per watt is not accurate enough. Veg time and size and strain can change gpw without changing light.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 29, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> And just how increased was it?


47% on average


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 29, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Fuck it. Whatever works best for you setup. Do it.
> 
> I promise you guys though... If you are seeing improved yields in your setup with pulling off a bunch of leaves over not doing so... you have some other issues and you're not seeing the full potential of your plants.
> 
> ...



I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason. I have 1000 watt lights, i use co2, i keep my air vigorously circulating.For Marijuana buds to develop fully, they need at-least 6 hours of direct sunlight a day. I realized from my lights moving back and forth light is able to reach some spots inside my plants but only provides around 2 hours of direct sunlight to these locations on the plant. Therefore, I am left with a mixture of nodes and stems that will never reach their full potential as well as the normal growth that the plant has. By selectively pruning this growth away, nutrients and energy are allocated to the main growth sites and not wasted in a frivolous attempt to create additional flowers. My alternative would be to use shorter light rails to increase exposure times to light but by using the rails I can increase my garden space from a 5' x 10' to a 8' x 10' garden giving me a 30% increase in cultivating space and yield. If I did not use light movers with such long rails I would not have to defoliate and prune, but I have to because I how my garden is set up.


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## hyroot (Jul 29, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> 47% on average


So you have an anemometer in your garden?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Nice, I grew this in some dirt i dug outa my backyard and mixed in *$1* worth of miracle grow soil then grew it under a couple cfl lights in my closet. All i needed to add was some water which i collected from the rain. I got the seed from a bag so I didn't have to waste money on that either. In total, The light cost me $50 but I got 4 harvests out of it already so it paid for itself by now and my nutes cost me maybe a *$1.50 total* . Here is what i have going now for pennies guys,
> *pennies.*
> 
> View attachment 2753396


Looking pretty nute stressed. Until you learn how to avoid that you will never MAXIMIZE your yields.


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> That's not really true. The main commonality I've seen is increased air circulation. Personally I wouldn't support the increased yield argument, however it's hard to argue with the better circulation part of the equation. When I did a side by side of clones I saw almost identical yield. 87 to 90 grams per plant in 1.75 gallon pots.


Increased air circulation almost never comes up when they discuss defoliation. There are no if, ands or buts about it, they defoliate in order to increase yield. At least thats what they claim. And just like light air penetrates the canopy even if ours eyes cannot see it do so. You have a receptacle to plug your grow light in. So why not plug a fan in too....


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason.


Yes there is, as I explained a dozen different ways in other defoliation threads. Not gonna repeat myself but small buds at the bottom of the plant is an issue of apical dominance, plant resource allocations, etc. Has nothing to do with light penetration. Do a search on my posts if you're really interested in clearing this whole issue up.

One of these days you guys may get it, but then a new crop of noobs will show up, start another defoliation thread and the quilt knitting circles will start all over.

UB


----------



## Uncle Ben (Jul 30, 2013)

hyroot said:


> So you have an anemometer in your garden?


Davis Pro Vantage for me, accurate and wireless. I'm very spoiled and addicted to this system. Wouldn't be caught dead without it.

UB


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Increased air circulation almost never comes up when they discuss defoliation. There are no if, ands or buts about it, they defoliate in order to increase yield. At least thats what they claim. And just like light air penetrates the canopy even if ours eyes cannot see it do so. You have a receptacle to plug your grow light in. So why not plug a fan in too....


It's strain dependant, but I've had issues with some leafy strains grown in tight areas. The fact that I live in a fog bank a few blocks from the beach doesn't help, but powdery mildew is real issue around here. I have multiple fans in my tent, but not a lot of extra room for dehumid, so I put the dehumid outside of the tent which only sort of helps. I've started using green cure which works well for controlling PM, but I don't want to use any nasty chemicals intended for golf courses on my weed. My current strain doesn't really require much leaf removal, so it's sort of a non-issue for me right not, but with past strains leaf removal did help to control PM, while not affecting plant yield. I think when growers talk of increased yield, it's simply because they are able to cram more plants in the same area due to less leaf matter. Perhaps the yield does go up overall, but seems highly doubtful that it does on a per plant basis.


----------



## Situation420 (Jul 30, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Looking pretty nute stressed. Until you learn how to avoid that you will never MAXIMIZE your yields.


That bud in that picture is bigger than any bud in any of your pictures and is 5 inches wide and 18 inches long. If that is nute stress and my yield was affected then my nugs still get bigger than yours even when I do badly lol. Anyway, I can tell you don't know what your talking about because the brown leaf edges is from water stress from a lack of Cool air and ventilation because i lost power and my ac was out for 2 days and my temps hit 102 degrees. Another indication that you don't know what your talking about because I use half strength AN nutes at 1200-1400 ppm so how the f is it possible to nute burn them anyway. I'll take my "crappy" plants over your healthy ones any day haha.



Alexander Supertramp said:


> Increased air circulation almost never comes up when they discuss defoliation. There are no if, ands or buts about it, they defoliate in order to increase yield. At least thats what they claim. And just like light air penetrates the canopy even if ours eyes cannot see it do so. You have a receptacle to plug your grow light in. So why not plug a fan in too....


I brought up air circulation a while back in this thread and how defoliation contributes to it. Do you not read right?


----------



## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 30, 2013)

situation420 said:


> that bud in that picture is bigger than any bud in any of your pictures and is 5 inches wide and 18 inches long. If that is nute stress and my yield was affected then my nugs still get bigger than yours even when i do badly lol. Anyway, i can tell you don't know what your talking about because the brown leaf edges is from water stress from a lack of cool air and ventilation because i lost power and my ac was out for 2 days and my temps hit 102 degrees. Another indication that you don't know what your talking about because i use half strength an nutes at 1200-1400 ppm so how the f is it possible to nute burn them anyway. I'll take my "crappy" plants over your healthy ones any day haha.
> 
> 
> 
> I brought up air circulation a while back in this thread and how defoliation contributes to it. Do you not read right?


lmfao...you have an excuse for everything.


----------



## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason. I have 1000 watt lights, i use co2, i keep my air vigorously circulating.For Marijuana buds to develop fully, they need at-least 6 hours of direct sunlight a day. I realized from my lights moving back and forth light is able to reach some spots inside my plants but only provides around 2 hours of direct sunlight to these locations on the plant. Therefore, I am left with a mixture of nodes and stems that will never reach their full potential as well as the normal growth that the plant has. By selectively pruning this growth away, nutrients and energy are allocated to the main growth sites and not wasted in a frivolous attempt to create additional flowers. My alternative would be to use shorter light rails to increase exposure times to light but by using the rails I can increase my garden space from a 5' x 10' to a 8' x 10' garden giving me a 30% increase in cultivating space and yield. If I did not use light movers with such long rails I would not have to defoliate and prune, but I have to because I how my garden is set up.


You are growing plants larger than what your flowering setup can handle (with a no popcorn policy in place anyway) . If I grow plants too tall I have the same problem.
The solution in my garden is to send plant into flower setup for success. I know the size and I remove some lower branches very early in flower.
And yes, it makes for larger buds up top. Less bigger buds rather than more smaller buds. I've checked it time again though. Yields are unchanged.
What you do get is more consistent product. Less larger buds equaling the same weight I would have got in the form of large, medium and popcorn buds.

That is not defoliating. Defoliating is when you are removing the leaves on the plant to achieve some sort of growth or penetration...? beats me. it seems you all have a different explanation.

What is fact though...? You remove a leaf from a plant and you remove a piece of the plants capability to produce growth and buds.

I pinch out sites and leave the leaves on when I can. The lowest leaves end up falling off well before harvest.

Here is the real point here... you can achieve the same thing in different ways if you are so concerned about popcorn.
The defoliator sees a big healthy leaf reaching to an openish spot below the light... below it is a group of buds...
The defoliator pulls the leaf off. The non defoliator takes a little garden twist and moves the bud site... or, just leaves it.

The difference between the two plants/choices? The defoliator plant just lost a vital piece of what makes the plant work. The guy who moved the growth did not. The non defoliator WILL HAVE A LARGER YIELD.! Healthier plant, and less prone to fungus, pests and disease.

See what I am saying? There are 50 ways to shave your balls. If you wanna use a blender, go for it. I use a special pair of scissors.
What? It's fucking 110 degrees outside.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I brought up air circulation a while back in this thread and how defoliation contributes to it.


Improving your air circulation can be achieved by properly setting up your garden with the right equipment and not over crowding plants.

It's that simple. You do not need to remove leaves to get air circulation. If your setup was not done well and you need to remove leaves to get proper air circulation then fine.
Weigh the benefits of each... Do you need to fix your poor air circulation caused by a poor design badly enough to harm the plant with defoliation? If so, do it.

The thing is... you are still pulling leaves from a health plant. You pull a leaf from the plant and you pull off a piece of its ability to produce buds.

The defoliator pulls a leaf off the plant... The non defoliator sets up his grow properly from the start and gives plants the room they need to grow. Spacing is all about knowing your genetics.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Improving your air circulation can be achieved by properly setting up your garden with the right equipment and not over crowding plants.
> 
> It's that simple. You do not need to remove leaves to get air circulation. If your setup was not done well and you need to remove leaves to get proper air circulation then fine.
> Weigh the benefits of each... Do you need to fix your poor air circulation caused by a poor design badly enough to harm the plant with defoliation? If so, do it.
> ...


Amen Brother!


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 30, 2013)

OK so here's my question: I do SoG, standard practice and the way I was taught involver removing the bottom branches and leaves before going into flower. I'm reluctant to flower any other way right now because it works nicely, solid big nugs on top. So if I don't cut all that off, would I still get the same QUALITY bud, nice solid big tops, or will those diminish in weight? Because I don't want THAT to happen. 
I'm asking because I really am interested. If I can get more bud by doing less, that's pretty sweet.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Mad Hamish said:


> OK so here's my question: I do SoG, standard practice and the way I was taught involver removing the bottom branches and leaves before going into flower. I'm reluctant to flower any other way right now because it works nicely, solid big nugs on top. So if I don't cut all that off, would I still get the same QUALITY bud, nice solid big tops, or will those diminish in weight? Because I don't want THAT to happen.
> I'm asking because I really am interested. If I can get more bud by doing less, that's pretty sweet.


Well, I thought this was a thread about this vague (and becoming even more vague) technique known as "Defoliation", but these are my opinions regarding your question...

I don't think that you would get the same quality. Not cutting it off will get a little bit more yield with less consistent quality of buds. If you do cut them off, depending on when you remove the growth and how much you remove (stress) you will get slightly less weight overall but more consistent dense buds.
Basically, what you are getting is... Less bigger buds rather than more buds of varying size, but the same weight for the most part. Slightly less.

Once again though... you are solving a problem you have in a way that includes taking leaves from your plant which the plant uses to make energy.
Your "problems" are...
1) over crowded - which is the SoG way... you have to take branches off to make them fit in the space. 
2) inconsistent size and density - Growing SoG you have this problem worse than those who space plants up with the max potential of their genetics.

Then here are ways you can do the same thing in a less harmful way to your plant... but still solving your problems.
!) over crowded - 
---- Stop over crowding them. Your genetics at the size that you put into flower have a consistent amount of space they will fill and a unique way they fill that space.
---- So find out that space that your plants fill and come up with the most ideal plant spacing that works under your lights. Now you do not need to remove branches, this
---- allows the leaves that were on that branch to stay on the plant and produce buds.
2) inconsistent flower size and density
---- Instead of removing an entire branch, remove only the growth tips along the branch that are below your desired height. (Space between the grow media lower growth)
---- You can remove the growth sites/tips along the branch without removing the leaves attached... These leaves will help the plant in those early weeks of 12/12.

It's just a different way to do what you are going for but is less stressful to the plant as it is not removing leaves.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Again, my opinions...

If we are going to call any removal of a leaf at anytime "Defoliation" then this idea of "Defoliation" is too vague to discuss beyond saying this...

*Removing a single healthy leaf from a cannabis plant will slow growth and make the plant more prone to pest, fungal infections and disease.* *With more healthy leaves removed from the plant, the plant will become more stressed and experience slower growth and become more prone to pest, fungal infections and disease.*

I'm pretty sure that is a fact. If you disagree with that (no matter how slight the harm might be) then I can't really have a real discussion with you on this. 
The "no matter how slight the harm might be" is an important part of what I am getting at. Removing every leaf from the plant that is large enough to get a hold of will cause quite a bit of stress. Removing one small yellow leaf near the bottom will cause practically zero stress. At the minimum, when you pluck that leaf, at the base of the petiole you expose the plant, like an open wound. When a plant falls off naturally, the plant closes up that wound before dropping it. ..And everything in between.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Now, it seems to me that some of the defoliators are retreating back into a more mild form of "Defoliating" to continue on in their argument from a safer place. No?


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I realized that all of the insignificant growth that happens on my plants that only amounts to little poofy buds is a result of my light movers. There is no other possible reason. I have 1000 watt lights, i use co2, i keep my air vigorously circulating.For Marijuana buds to develop fully, they need at-least 6 hours of direct sunlight a day. I realized from my lights moving back and forth light is able to reach some spots inside my plants but only provides around 2 hours of direct sunlight to these locations on the plant. Therefore, I am left with a mixture of nodes and stems that will never reach their full potential as well as the normal growth that the plant has. By selectively pruning this growth away, nutrients and energy are allocated to the main growth sites and not wasted in a frivolous attempt to create additional flowers. My alternative would be to use shorter light rails to increase exposure times to light but by using the rails I can increase my garden space from a 5' x 10' to a 8' x 10' garden giving me a 30% increase in cultivating space and yield. If I did not use light movers with such long rails I would not have to defoliate and prune, but I have to because I how my garden is set up.


I just don't buy it man. Sorry. You can shape your plants in a way that do not need to remove leaves. Your choice to go that route is your choice. 
Your setup is so different from mine that you are in a better position than me to find what works. But, I know that removing leaves is not the BEST option because of the fact that removing leaves is harmful to the plant. If there was absolutely no other solution in the world, then ok... you have a setup that has an issue and your best option is to harm the plant to fix your design flaw. Cheers...


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

I agree, that "defoliation" is too broad of an undefined term to have a real debate over. The term defoliation implies complete leaf removal, which personally I would never recommend. On the other hand, some selective leaf removal could have some specific benefits (depending on the strain, environment, number of plants, timing, selectivity, etc..).

The broadness of this non-defined term is one of the main reasons I've chosen to stay out of these debated much lately. You can always win an argument using what I'd call "extremism". Sure, of course if you remove all your leaves (aka, "defoliate"), you are likely to fuck up your crop. If you remove 30% of your leaves the benefits may possibly outweigh your setbacks. Again, it's all strain and environment dependant.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> But, I know that removing leaves is not the BEST option because of the fact that removing leaves is harmful to the plant.


Agreed. However as you also implied a previous post, we don't know how much harm is done. In my experience, removing 30% of the leaves from a leafy strain twice during flowering had little if any impact on yield on identical clones grown in 1.75 gallon containers. The difference in control vs leaf removal was literally a 3% max (and I honestly forget which yielded more since at a 3% differential it really didn't matter).


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> No, no, no. It does not benefit the plant. It just does not PJ... I'm sorry.


If you live in a fog bank and you are working with a leafy strain that is sensitive to PM, yes -- yes it does benefit the plant.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> If you live in a fog bank and you are working with a leafy strain that is sensitive to PM, yes -- yes it does benefit the plant.


I deleted that because I realized I needed to read your post again.. I'll respond in one minute.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Ok, you can remove the leaves and see an improved air circulation. You can remove the leaves and have an easier time reaching into a tight space... you can remove the leaves and feel better about it because you read somewhere about this new thing called defoliating and you are convinced it will help you.

But, the bottom line is that you can fix your problem in another way and removing leaves is harmful to the plant.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> I deleted that because I realized I needed to read your post again.. I'll respond in one minute.


No problem, but just to point out, we don't all live in the arid warm climates. I live a few blocks from the beach, and the outdoor humidity overnight is generally 85% to 90%.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> If you live in a fog bank and you are working with a leafy strain that is sensitive to PM, yes -- yes it does benefit the plant.



So ok... you have PM issues and you want to pull a leaf off of the plant... Now you just exposed the plant to not only PM, but all other pests, fungal infections and diseases.

Give you plants better space. Why are you working with PM prone plants in the first place?

The way you fight a PM prone plant is NOT removing leaves... That will make it worse.

If you have this issue read up on how to deal with PM.... they will tell you most likely that cutting out a bad area is a good option.. And it is if you are already to that point... But as a practice, no, it is not the best option. Solve you environment issues first...


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Ok, you can remove the leaves and see an improved air circulation. You can remove the leaves and have an easier time reaching into a tight space... you can remove the leaves and feel better about it because you read somewhere about this new thing called defoliating and you are convinced it will help you.
> 
> But, the bottom line is that you can fix your problem in another way and removing leaves is harmful to the plant.



Topping is harmful to the plant too -- in the short term. We need to think about the big picture here though. 

Also, in regards to PM I could easily choose "another way" that may be more effective, but as I previously pointed out I choose not to spray toxins meant for golf courses on my ganja.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> So ok... you have PM issues and you want to pull a leaf off of the plant... Now you just exposed the plant to not only PM, but all other pests, fungal infections and diseases.
> 
> Give you plants better space. Why are you working with PM prone plants in the first place?
> 
> The way you fight a PM prone plant is NOT removing leaves... That will make it worse.


I'm not working with that strain anymore, for the obvious reasons. I do agree that removing leaves does open up the plant for other possible infections, however I can also tell you that it does indeed help with PM. My side by side test proved that.

I'm not removing leaves regularly these days, and I definitely don't support complete defoliation, however at the same time I see these narrowly viewed, one sided, extremist type arguments used to debunk any and all benefits of leaf removal silly and disingenuous at best.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> No problem, but just to point out, we don't all live in the arid warm climates. I live a few blocks from the beach, and the outdoor humidity overnight is generally 85% to 90%.


Ok... I don't think your location changes any laws of science or the way a plant works. You need extra control of RH and I need extra control of temp. Depending on our genetics, the plants needs are still the same.
Again... you're retreating far far far into safety right now. Was this not about Defoliation before?


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Ok... I don't think your location changes any laws of science or the way a plant works. You need extra control of RH and I need extra control of temp. Depending on our genetics, the plants needs are still the same.
> Again... you're retreating far far far into safety right now. Was this not about Defoliation before?


I'm not retreating to anywhere. I've never supported extreme defoliation. I've always only supported selective leaf removal, and for specific situations.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I'm not retreating to anywhere. I've never supported extreme defoliation. I've always only supported selective leaf removal, and for specific situations.


You're just here to argue with UB aren't you? Haha. Good luck.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Ok... I don't think your location changes any laws of science or the way a plant works.


Location absolutely affects the development of PM.

http://precisionagrilab.com/powderymildew/

Powdery Mildew Maps​​​


Powdery Mildew Advisory 
The maps displayed on this site are generated through a reliable computer model based on accurate weather data collected from serveral sites throughout each region. The powdery mildew index is an indication of climatic conditions which may be conducive to development of powdery mildew disease. It is possible to have the disease present and active at economically damaging levels even when the powdery mildew index indicates a low likelihood of conditions favoring rapid development of the disease. Frequent field scouting by a qualified PCA is recommended. 



DelanoPaso Robles 


 

LodiGreenfield 

 

MaderaSanta Maria 

 






 
​​


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> You're just here to argue with UB aren't you? Haha. Good luck.


I generally try not to argue with him, as I tend to find his arguments fairly pointless. Sometimes when he says something really senile though I just can't help it.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Topping is harmful to the plant too -- in the short term. We need to think about the big picture here though.
> 
> Also, in regards to PM I could easily choose "another way" that may be more effective, but as I previously pointed out I choose not to spray toxins meant for golf courses on my ganja.


Chemical options are not the only way either.

Look up a good read on dealing with PM in the greenhouse. Prbly from an extension office...


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Location absolutely affects the development of PM.


Yep... it does not change the fact that removing a leaf is harmful to the plant and that removing leaves is not the only option. In fact, it is not even a good option.

Nothing about your location changes any of what I have said.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Honestly... your beach towns are not much more humid than many parts of the midwest during many parts of the year... Where I got my start on indoor gardening.

The easiest way to fight PM is with genetics. With the right genetics you won't have to deal with PM.

I wouldn't try to grow Romulan even in an arid climate.. It's just too prone.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Beyond genetics... It seems like the obvious choice is finding a way to lower the RH in your grow room... climate control... no?

Sit a healthy plant next to a pm plant. It's already likely to get PM. Now take that healthy plant and remove one leaf from it... it is now more susceptible to the PM on the plant next to it.

If the healthy plant was a plant HIGHLY resistant to PM, then it will prbly be fine... Remove just one leaf and it is slightly less resistant. Follow me? Agree? Disagree?

Is your problem not air circulation and/or high RH? Are there not ways to fight that without chemicals that are made to be used on a golf course?


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Honestly... your beach towns are not much more humid than many parts of the midwest during many parts of the year... Where I got my start on indoor gardening.
> 
> The easiest way to fight PM is with genetics. With the right genetics you won't have to deal with PM.
> 
> I wouldn't try to grow Romulan even in an arid climate.. It's just too prone.


I'm going to guess that in your humid climate temps are on average 20 degrees higher than my humid climate, which is a climate easier for PM to thrive in. When you live in a community where PM thrives it's always going to be something to consider.

As I've said, I have switched genetics. I have also incorporated GreenCure which is a fairly effective non-toxic solution. I could put the dehumidifier inside the tent instead of outside, but then there would be less space for plants.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Beyond genetics... It seems like the obvious choice is finding a way to lower the RH in your grow room... climate control... no?
> 
> Sit a healthy plant next to a pm plant. It's already likely to get PM. Now take that healthy plant and remove one leaf from it... it is now more susceptible to the PM on the plant next to it.
> 
> If the healthy plant was a plant HIGHLY resistant to PM, then it will prbly be fine... Remove just one leaf and it is slightly less resistant. Follow me? Agree? Disagree?


Yes, I agree. I only keep the dehumid on half the time and outside of the tent. I could run it 24/7 (which would cost a lot more) or put it inside the tent (which would give me less growing space). Everything is a trade off.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Pulling the leaves off of your plants is making your plants more susceptible to PM...
There are SIMPLE fixes... like air circulation and not overcrowding plants..

Removing leaves only improves air circulation... it does not fight powdery mildew... it makes your plant more susceptible to PM.
Improve your circulation in the obvious way... proper plant spacing and with the proper equipment and design.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Yes, I agree.


So then why do you think the answer to your problem with PM is removing leaves?

You think that weighing the two options... it is better to have your plants more susceptible (with open wound) than it is to find another way to fight PM?
You think there is no other way?

I would recommend looking at the process of IPM. You can apply the same idea to your problem. Come up with a control solution.
Removing growth covered in PM will prbly be part of your control. But removing healthy growth to improve airflow is counter-productive. You can improve airflow in other ways that do not slow growth and make them more susceptible (open wound, slowed growth) to PM.


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Pulling the leaves off of your plants is making your plants more susceptible to PM...
> There are SIMPLE fixes... like air circulation and not overcrowding plants..
> 
> Removing leaves only improves air circulation... it does not fight powdery mildew... it makes your plant more susceptible to PM.
> Improve your circulation in the obvious way... proper plant spacing and with the proper equipment and design.





HeartlandHank said:


> I'm confused PJ...
> 
> Are you saying that removing the leaves from your leafy plants is making the plants less prone to the high levels of PM in your area?


All I can say for sure is the results with a specific strain (G13-Haze) which was PM prone (possibly because I acquired it as a clone and already had PM). What I can say is that when I did a side by side with two identical clones and all other factors being identical. The only difference was the approx 30% leaf removal during flower at 14 days and again at 45 days. The yield was nearly identical on both accounts. The only noticeable difference being that PM infected a small portion of lower buds with a minor amount of PM on the plants which no leaves were removed, VS no visable PM on the plants which had the leaves removed as described.


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## kindnug (Jul 30, 2013)

Air circulation can be just as important as humidity.
Humidity builds fast in stagnant air + this area has steady 60-80% relative humidity.
I've never had to use a dehumidifier since I have an abundance of air circulation.
Larger exhaust fan +/or more intake air.

Keep arguing if you must > it's so obvious...


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> So then why do you think the answer to your problem with PM is removing leaves?
> 
> You think that weighing the two options... it is better to have your plants more susceptible (with open wound) than it is to find another way to fight PM?
> You think there is no other way?


Are you not fully reading my replies?

I already told you that I found my answer, which was the same answer you previously suggested. I've changed genetics.

Why are you beating a dead horse? Yes, PM helped in my case. Deal with it. You can hate that fact, or you can love it. Doesn't really matter, because the fact remains the same: in MY SPECIFIC SITUATION, yes moderate leaf removal did indeed help with PM without affecting overall yield. I know, sometimes truths are hard to swallow. I understand. Get past your blockages, and see the world for what it is -- infinite.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Are you not fully reading my replies?
> 
> I already told you that I found my answer, which was the same answer you previously suggested. I've changed genetics.
> 
> Why are you beating a dead horse? Yes, PM helped in my case. Deal with it. You can hate that fact, or you can love it. Doesn't really matter, because the fact remains the same: in MY SPECIFIC SITUATION, yes moderate leaf removal did indeed help with PM without affecting overall yield. I know, sometimes truths are hard to swallow. I understand. Get past your blockages, and see the world for what it is -- infinite.



Sounds like you had stagnant air around the plant without the leaves removed. Air circulation..

If you managed to pull off the same yields then great.. There is nothing hard to swallow about that.

If you are having problems with PM in the first place then you probably do not have your plants in a position to reach full potential anyway... Light, Nutrients, Water, Air.
With pieces already missing (air quality) it's not like you are going to be using all of the stored energy in the leaves anyway... pull em off. fuck it.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

Pulling off leaves is just a bad practice... that's all I'm saying PJ... You can always solve the problem another way.
If you choose pulling leaves as your way because it is most practical.... cool. I'm all for measuring the return on investment.

Your specific situation is not in some other galaxy where a plant does not use its leaves to make energy for growth.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> All I can say for sure is the results with a specific strain (G13-Haze) which was PM prone (possibly because I acquired it as a clone and already had PM). What I can say is that when I did a side by side with two identical clones and all other factors being identical. The only difference was the approx 30% leaf removal during flower at 14 days and again at 45 days. The yield was nearly identical on both accounts. The only noticeable difference being that PM infected a small portion of lower buds with a minor amount of PM on the plants which no leaves were removed, VS no visable PM on the plants which had the leaves removed as described.



Yeah? Any threads on that side by side? Pics? Anything?


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## roseypeach (Jul 30, 2013)

kindnug said:


> Air circulation can be just as important as humidity.
> Humidity builds fast in stagnant air + this area has steady 60-80% relative humidity.
> I've never had to use a dehumidifier since I have an abundance of air circulation.
> Larger exhaust fan +/or more intake air.
> ...


it was deprived of good circulation for a day or so a few weeks back so she's been recovering ever
since.

BTW, she is doing great!!! check out my Snowstorm Trial thread and see for yourselves


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Yeah? Any threads on that side by side? Pics? Anything?


Nothing that would convince or satisfy you I'm sure, nor do I really care to spend the effort to do so. Have fun continuing to argue from a one sided perspective.


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 30, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Nothing that would convince or satisfy you I'm sure, nor do I really care to spend the effort to do so. Have fun continuing to argue from a one sided perspective.


Nothing that would convince me or nothing at all? Try me..


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## PJ Diaz (Jul 30, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Nothing that would convince me or nothing at all? Try me..


Here's all I really got. The two on the right hand side are the "A/B" plants. The front right had no leaves removed. The rear right had selective leaf removal. (The other two on the left are: rear = same strain with a different (test) nute regiment -- front = different strain)



Here's a bud from the plant with selective leaf removal (short flowering G-13/Haze pheno @ 50 days 12/12):


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## Mad Hamish (Jul 31, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Well, I thought this was a thread about this vague (and becoming even more vague) technique known as "Defoliation", but these are my opinions regarding your question...
> 
> I don't think that you would get the same quality. Not cutting it off will get a little bit more yield with less consistent quality of buds. If you do cut them off, depending on when you remove the growth and how much you remove (stress) you will get slightly less weight overall but more consistent dense buds.
> Basically, what you are getting is... Less bigger buds rather than more buds of varying size, but the same weight for the most part. Slightly less.
> ...


 So you're telling me I need to double the floor space (you ever see what a good 'flow table costs?), which means doubling the amount of electricity as I WILL double the lighting, in order to keep the same size run of clones? And all of that to actually sacrifice the quality of bud, as you yourself admit. 
Point taken on removing the growing tips only, that makes a lot of sense to me indeed. But spending that amount of money extra to get lower quality bud? Wish I had your day-job bud. 

I'll just stick to what works, thank you. I don't think I am stressing my plants any more than the natural plant pests I have in my outside garden. Since when is reefer this pussy plant that can't handle anything but perfection? It's not a bloody orchid man. A little bit of stress never killed anybody.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 31, 2013)

I am so tired of people that don't have a clue to what defoliation actually is and how it works. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163 <=Thread started by a 30 year expert, it's full of pictures and totally documented facts on the process.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 31, 2013)

Now let's have an end to all this nonsense discussion on defoliation shall we? hmmmm? maybe? whatta yah say doc?


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## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 31, 2013)

And if your to lazy to read, here's one of 100s of pics in the thread. Defoliated on the left, and undefoliated on the right. Clones of the same plant on both sides.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 31, 2013)

One of the main notes, that seems to get lost, is that defoliation must begin in veg state. You can't just pull all the leaves off any time you feel like it, and expect good results.


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## Vincent VonBlown (Jul 31, 2013)

For further and exact clarification, both plants in the picture have actually been defoliated, the one on the left is more advanced and more defoliated. And the one on the right, is less advanced but needs another hair cut, so to speak ...


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2013)

HH, you make some great points. Folks need to heed you.

I keep hearing about the need to remove leaves because some of you *think* you're cramming plants tightly together. NO ONE crams plants together like I do, and I have NEVER removed anything. I don't know what some of you guys are doing but I'm almost inclined your feelings are over-riding good judgement, IF, you can find good judgement with most of the "advise" at RIU. I'll post this link one more time to show you what CRAMMED plants is really all about. Within weeks, my plants are 'huge' by forum standards. Look at Week 4 - some are already 27" tall. https://www.rollitup.org/advanced-marijuana-cultivation/9114-spin-out-chemical-root-pruning.html

Do these looked spaced apart to you? The leaves of one plant is under, through and around the leaves of its sistas:











Secondary harvests, one is Thai-tanic nugs drying the other with a Jack Herer with nugs still on the plant. The JH is quite tight and dense. Why? Because the plants' resources which includes carbos, enzymes, amino acids, proteins, and hormones are NOW focused, directed, to what's left the plant. This is called apical dominance. Now to you New Age World Order leaf pluckers, you're shit of of luck. You have to have leaves at the lower levels to pull this off. The fat colas were cut off at the point where just below them they were airy.

I can get up to 1 oz. of dried bud from a plant doing a secondary harvest this way.





Uncle Ben


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2013)

Vincent, no offense brother, but I am not impressed by IC Rag forum-speak or your outcome after defoliation.

IC Rag is just another cannabis forum - it's half a dozen of one, 6 of the other no matter what forum you choose to visit. IC Rag is big regarding membership. I used to be a member of the biggest - OverGrown and the second biggest, Cannabis World and IC Mag. They were no different regarding content and it all came with the same old paradigms, gimmicks, and anecdotal evidence.

UB


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## HeartlandHank (Jul 31, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> I am so tired of people that don't have a clue to what defoliation actually is and how it works. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163 <=Thread started by a 30 year expert, it's full of pictures and totally documented facts on the process.


Vincent, your technique does not seem much different than the other link floating around this thread. That guy also says "30 years of defoliating".

I've been going through the thread and looking for the "totally documented facts". Not sure where they are... I have made it to page 9 so far.


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## Uncle Ben (Jul 31, 2013)

HeartlandHank said:


> Sounds like you had stagnant air around the plant without the leaves removed. Air circulation..


Really! What is it about using fans that these folks don't get? For starts I'd never grow in a tent. You're just asking for logistical problems. My indoor garden "walls" were open at the bottom, like about 12" above the floor. A window fan sat on the floor by a side panel and blew in cool fresh air into the bottom of the garden which helped exhaust hot moist air out the top.

UB


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## kindnug (Jul 31, 2013)

Agreed!
More than one intake isn't a bad thing...


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## CoolNameHere (Jul 31, 2013)

Plants need energy to grow they receive that through there leaves let it be i never take anything of and i always have firm buds


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## Sir.Ganga (Jul 31, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You have no credibility nor honor as it stands now with the long term seasoned growers at RIU. You have earned the reputation as the Village Troll. It's up to you to redeem yourself.


 I have proven what I came here to do, to show people what they are missing by following your guidance without doing their own research. If your considering yourself as seasoned growers at RIU then I want no part of it. But I seriously doubt that! RIU could do without you and your kind as stated day after day by many members...so maybe you have it backwards. I would rather be called the Village Troll then what most call you...The Village Idiot!


HeartlandHank said:


> If you show the solid research/ proof, then the argument is over. It's that simple guys.


Do a few more hours of reading before pointing the finger. Not only have I backed up my mouth with pictures, side by side studies, and just about everything except going over to their homes(yes...I KNOW)and growing it for them, but others have as well. There is pages and pages of evidence that has been presented time and time again and you know what...if its not how they do things ...its bunkim or not backed, or this or that...Just read my friend and you will see what the real story is. Its a JOKE and so are they. Believe what you want but if you want bias info don't ask UB or his cronies(you will know them!)...that's for sure.


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## roseypeach (Jul 31, 2013)

I am the OP of this thread. I had NO IDEA it was going to take on a life of its own. 

So much for getting feedback. You all are too worried about proving each other wrong than to provide any feedback or help whatsosever. I guess I'm unsubscribing to my own thread


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## woody333333 (Aug 1, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I am the OP of this thread. I had NO IDEA it was going to take on a life of its own.
> 
> So much for getting feedback. You all are too worried about proving each other wrong than to provide any feedback or help whatsosever. I guess I'm unsubscribing to my own thread


your plants look really bad........ i didnt think it was even dope...........should probably throw em away and start over


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## blacksun (Aug 1, 2013)

roseypeach said:


> I had NO IDEA it was going to take on a life of its own.






Might as well go to the politics section, start a thread about george zimmerman and say the same thing.....


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## blacksun (Aug 1, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> And if your to lazy to read, here's one of 100s of pics in the thread. Defoliated on the left, and undefoliated on the right. Clones of the same plant on both sides.



Well of course defoliation looks good...



_*cough* ...when you forget to mention that the plant on the left is four weeks older than the plant on the right lol... *cough*_


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## Situation420 (Aug 1, 2013)

Check out these buds that were defoliated.


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## hugaddiction (Aug 1, 2013)

leave your pour girl alone and let her flower already! your like some sick mad scientist that experiments on people, leave her alone!


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 1, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Check out these buds that were defoliated.
> 
> View attachment 2758819


Fair enough. What happened down below to achieve such a canopy of buds? I want some up the skirt shots!


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## Dboi87 (Aug 1, 2013)

I'm a new grower and was hoping to find valuable info on this forum. However I've realized its just as easy to be misled as it is to find the real deal. I know some will flame me for saying this but uncle ben is one of the few on here I've seen that base their methods on sound and proven botanical biology. So here's my question for uncle ben...

I know I could search the forums and hope to weed out the nonsense and spend forever finding answers to my relatively simple questions. I don't really want to go through all that. Uncle ben, are there any good books or other sources on botany/cannabis that you would suggest? I have no problem with doing research and putting in leg work but it seems with a subject such as marijuana that is surrounded by all types of hocus pocus it becomes difficult to remember it's still just another plant. So again if you have any resources for me and the rest of the community it'd be awesome. Thanks bro


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## socaljoe (Aug 1, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I'm a new grower and was hoping to find valuable info on this forum. However I've realized its just as easy to be misled as it is to find the real deal. I know some will flame me for saying this but uncle ben is one of the few on here I've seen that base their methods on sound and proven botanical biology. So here's my question for uncle ben...
> 
> I know I could search the forums and hope to weed out the nonsense and spend forever finding answers to my relatively simple questions. I don't really want to go through all that. Uncle ben, are there any good books or other sources on botany/cannabis that you would suggest? I have no problem with doing research and putting in leg work but it seems with a subject such as marijuana that is surrounded by all types of hocus pocus it becomes difficult to remember it's still just another plant. So again if you have any resources for me and the rest of the community it'd be awesome. Thanks bro


I hope UB won't mind me answering your question. Several times now, I've seen him recommend the following book. http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0929349008


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## stickyfingers1977 (Aug 2, 2013)

gotta say it buddy you have that strain down to a tee does having they parabolic reflectors give you more coverage than normal barn reflectors ? and can I ask what nutes your running, I bet you have some co2 running in their too either way you have some nice bud their


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 2, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> I'm a new grower and was hoping to find valuable info on this forum. However I've realized its just as easy to be misled as it is to find the real deal. I know some will flame me for saying this but uncle ben is one of the few on here I've seen that base their methods on sound and proven botanical biology. So here's my question for uncle ben...
> 
> I know I could search the forums and hope to weed out the nonsense and spend forever finding answers to my relatively simple questions. I don't really want to go through all that. Uncle ben, are there any good books or other sources on botany/cannabis that you would suggest? I have no problem with doing research and putting in leg work but it seems with a subject such as marijuana that is surrounded by all types of hocus pocus it becomes difficult to remember it's still just another plant. So again if you have any resources for me and the rest of the community it'd be awesome. Thanks bro


I just mentioned in another post do it quite often to get Mel Frank's book, "MJ Insider's Growers Guide". Check out my posts. If you are not a gardener and know little to nothing about horticulture, that book is about as solid as it gets plus there are many fascinating graphs and tests done by a the U. of Miss.

Oh.....see now where socaljoe gave you a link.

Good luck,
UB


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## Dboi87 (Aug 2, 2013)

Thanks socajoe and UB! And I just opened up every thread that you've posted on at least as far back as search will allow me to go. I wish it had them all :/ anyways I'm in the process of reading those threads and as always your replies seem solid. It may take a while to read all so I apologize in advance for any repeat questions in the mean time.


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## Silvers865 (Aug 2, 2013)

I took off about 5 lbs of foliage with prolly that much more left on my plants and with in 4 days I noticed how much better the buds were doing


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## Dboi87 (Aug 2, 2013)

4 days is a lot of time for growth... they would have probably looked bigger and better regardless. Especially since the further into bloom you are the faster development seems to happen.


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## hyroot (Aug 2, 2013)




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## Situation420 (Aug 2, 2013)

Vincent VonBlown said:


> I am so tired of people that don't have a clue to what defoliation actually is and how it works. https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163. Thread started by a 30 year expert, it's full of pictures and totally documented facts on the process.


These plants in the picture below were grown using this defoliation technique. Show me yours again UB where you didn't defoliate, I cant seem to find them anywhere.

That post on defoliation finally explained what I was trying to tell you guys. You can defoliate in veg but not after the first week of flowering. It gives you more compact plants for the area you are in allowing for more mature cola stem development in the veg stage giving you bigger buds. He is definitely right about getting the light green buds light and then they grow darker and mature more. I know you have harvested a top cola and left portions covered by her still on the plant and saw that over the course of the next week, that light green bud now exposed to the light grew darker and matured much faster.

That just shows that your claim that far red light penetrating the canopy is enough light to support shaded foliage is crap, because shaded foliage does not do photosynthesis at the same rate a as those areas with light but still uses up resources taken up by the roots, taking away from overall plant production. Learning how to defoliate properly will give you bigger buds guaranteed. The main reason is that stems grow slower thus more compact in the veg stage, however a 3 week veg will now take you 5 weeks for a plant to get to the same height but what is the difference if you have plants already in flowering for 8 weeks anyway? I know any experienced grower can understand that a thicker stem directly relates to a larger bud on the end of it. Even noobs can tell you that thats true to all you nay sayers about defoliation. 

Also, just because someone gives sound advice, does not necessarily mean that they give the best advice. 

*Defoliation done right:*

View attachment 2758819


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 2, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> These plants in the picture below were grown using this defoliation technique. Show me yours again UB where you didn't defoliate, I cant seem to find them anywhere.


Then you're not looking hard enough. Best bet is to go fetch and while you're at it pick up a book on indoor horticulture. Oh I forgot, you've only been here since last month, and talk like you've seen my hundreds of photos and thousands of posts from a dozen websites for the last 15 years.

You newbies are all alike. You drift into cannabis forums like some big swinging dick, charging like a bull in a china store thinking you're so fuckin' smart and gonna tear the "old folks" a new asshole. Well, hi, I'm Uncle Ben, glad to meet you. You best watch out for my Uncle Ben Dover....if you think I'm bad. 

Sorry, but only cannabis forum tards, primarily newbies, butcher their plants. I have never known a commercial greenhouse operator defoliate anything whether it be tomatoes, mums, poinsettia or any annuals. I wouldn't dare discuss it with them for starts. They'd automatically consider me a complete idiot who knows nothing about what makes plants tick. (And they'd be right.)

Having said that, there is nothing you've presented that can be confirmed, verified or truthfully acknowledged by your anecdotal evidence and a photo of some good genetics, indica mutts. 

Give me those genetics. I'll show you what a pot plant is supposed to look like.  Like to see what the grower could do with sativa, hah!

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 2, 2013)

Just before the thread was closed due to the usual cannabis forum trolling and fighting, Dr. Fever wrapped up it very well:



Dr. Fever said:


> Originally Posted by DrFever View Post
> enlighten i took this last post from the link you provided hahahaha
> 
> i know i am year late. but i been up on the defol. thread since it started.
> ...


 

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=174163&page=288


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 2, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Also, just because someone gives sound advice, does not necessarily mean that they give the best advice.


Works both ways. Just because someone says it and it seems popular does not mean it's correct. I'm going to give you a challenge. I want you to find a legitimate, normal gardening website (that does not apply to IC Rag, RIU, Cannabis World, etc.) and present your position to folks that are professionally schooled and trained in horticulture. Bounce it around a bit using some plant - tomatoes, peppers, herbs, pecans.....and see where you get. Use hemp, tell them you're from France.

Here's one of the best - http://www.gardenweb.com/

Talk it over with Dr. Chalker-Scott. She's very approachable, won't make you feel like a dummy, sharp as a tack and really knows her shit. Seriously, give her a call. 

http://puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda Chalker-Scott/Horticultural Myths_files/index.html

UB


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## grimreefer24601 (Aug 2, 2013)

Hey UB, do you grow any actual tomatoes? I hear people all the time talking about single stemming them. I personally let mine get 8' tall and 4' wide, and I assume you'd do the same. My sister is one who argues with me about it. But her plants look like crap compared to mine. A lot of people do stand behind single stemming, but it seems to me a waste. I've seen threads like this on gardenweb.com regarding tomatoes. I personally think my tomatoes do much better when I just let them grow. Same with cannabis.


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## Situation420 (Aug 2, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Then you're not looking hard enough. Best bet is to go fetch and while you're at it pick up a book on indoor horticulture. Oh I forgot, you've only been here since last month, and talk like you've seen my hundreds of photos and thousands of posts from a dozen websites for the last 15 years.
> 
> You newbies are all alike. You drift into cannabis forums like some big swinging dick, charging like a bull in a china store thinking you're so fuckin' smart and gonna tear the "old folks" a new asshole. Well, hi, I'm Uncle Ben, glad to meet you. You best watch out for my Uncle Ben Dover....if you think I'm bad.
> 
> ...


Looks like someone got a little salty when they saw how well defoliation can get put to use haha. For your information, those plants are 70% sativa, 30% indica so saying that they are just mutts and get that big for that reason is a good excuse to keep on shooting down the defoliation approach. Also, as to your challenge to go any horticulture website and talk to any professionals doesn't prove anything except that they agree or disagree with what I am saying. I just see the results for myself and these pics support it. 

Why must all you guys that have been on this site for so long have to jump all over "noobs" the minute they start using this site posting on threads. I agree some of the noobs say some pretty retarded things, but you guys associate that with all new members. Since day once I saw how this site works. One person comes in and shoots down the noob, the noob replies back, then that guys friends all come into the thread and turn it into a shitfest and post all their awesome pics that they have from the past 10 years lol. Honestly UB, you and about 3 or 4 other people on this site I know of I can say I respect their opinions. They provide accurate and good advice even though I always don't have the same views as them, they are not going to destroy someones hard work and all the effort they put in.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 2, 2013)

There are only 2 things defoliators agree on. One is pics are enough proof. And second it will increase yield. The rest has absolutely no continuity what so ever from grower to grower, besides the excuses that is...


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 2, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> There are only 2 things defoliators agree on. One is pics are enough proof. And second it will increase yield. The rest has absolutely no continuity what so ever from grower to grower, besides the excuses that is...


Heartland Hank said something similar a couple of pages back, and I reminded him of the additional aspect of increased air circulation. Haven't really heard from him since.


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## Situation420 (Aug 2, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Heartland Hank said something similar a couple of pages back, and I reminded him of the additional aspect of increased air circulation. Haven't really heard from him since.


Yea, it's like our supporting evidence does not matter and is wrong, but all of theirs must be right because that is how its been since the dawn of time lol. I dunno, I like big buds and huge yields. I guess it up for people to experiment on their own if they really want to know.


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 2, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Looks like someone got a little salty when they saw how well defoliation can get put to use haha. For your information, those plants are 70% sativa, 30% indica so saying that they are just mutts and get that big for that reason is a good excuse to keep on shooting down the defoliation approach. Also, as to your challenge to go any horticulture website and talk to any professionals doesn't prove anything except that they agree or disagree with what I am saying. I just see the results for myself and these pics support it.
> 
> Why must all you guys that have been on this site for so long have to jump all over "noobs" the minute they start using this site posting on threads. I agree some of the noobs say some pretty retarded things, but you guys associate that with all new members. Since day once I saw how this site works. One person comes in and shoots down the noob, the noob replies back, then that guys friends all come into the thread and turn it into a shitfest and post all their awesome pics that they have from the past 10 years lol. Honestly UB, you and about 3 or 4 other people on this site I know of I can say I respect their opinions. They provide accurate and good advice even though I always don't have the same views as them, they are not going to destroy someones hard work and all the effort they put in.



U really think keeftreez pulled 12 Oz of that one plant then u must have never seen a 12oz plant before. Tha guy is bullshitting all the way. His plants are so stunted from defoliation, that they don't even use his full screen of space where there could be more buds. I have tried this dude keeftreez technique and it doesn't work. Ub refers to noobs using these techs is because its true noobs are always looking up ways to get a bigger harvest before they have even grown a plant out. And what comes up these stupid hi yield defoliation posts by keeftreez. I would like to see one of you "defoliators" do a side by side.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 2, 2013)

grimreefer24601 said:


> Hey UB, do you grow any actual tomatoes? I hear people all the time talking about single stemming them. I personally let mine get 8' tall and 4' wide, and I assume you'd do the same. My sister is one who argues with me about it. But her plants look like crap compared to mine. A lot of people do stand behind single stemming, but it seems to me a waste. I've seen threads like this on gardenweb.com regarding tomatoes. I personally think my tomatoes do much better when I just let them grow. Same with cannabis.


Ditto. Mine finish out about 7'H X 5' wide. Let 'em go/grow. I use very large tomato cages made out of 5' wide concrete reinforcing mesh. I'm a variety freak. Try getting your hands on BHN602 aka 'Rodeo' for next season. Unbelievable!


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 2, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Why must all you guys that have been on this site for so long have to jump all over "noobs" the minute they start using this site posting on threads.


Because we're all getting tired of the same ole stupidity.

UB


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 2, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Yea, it's like our supporting evidence does not matter and is wrong, but all of theirs must be right because that is how its been since the dawn of time lol. I dunno, I like big buds and huge yields. I guess it up for people to experiment on their own if they really want to know.


Only proof presented has been a few pictures and claims. All of which are circumstantial at best.


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## blacksun (Aug 2, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Heartland Hank said something similar a couple of pages back, and I reminded him of the additional aspect of increased air circulation. Haven't really heard from him since.




If you get mold, mildew, or have heat or other air circulation issues just because you didn't hack your plant into pieces, you have a hell of a lot more problems than you think.

Why not find a way to dial in your grow room without plant mutilation being a requirement...?


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 2, 2013)

blacksun said:


> If you get mold, mildew, or have heat or other air circulation issues just because you didn't hack your plant into pieces, you have a hell of a lot more problems than you think.
> 
> Why not find a way to dial in your grow room without plant mutilation being a requirement...?


Why don't you take the time to read my previous posts before assuming you know my situation?


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 2, 2013)

grimreefer24601 said:


> Hey UB, do you grow any actual tomatoes? I hear people all the time talking about single stemming them. I personally let mine get 8' tall and 4' wide, and I assume you'd do the same. My sister is one who argues with me about it. But her plants look like crap compared to mine. A lot of people do stand behind single stemming, but it seems to me a waste. I've seen threads like this on gardenweb.com regarding tomatoes. I personally think my tomatoes do much better when I just let them grow. Same with cannabis.


Looks like they removed a few leaves from the tomato plants in the greenhouse of my local college. Damn professors and their PhD's, what the heck do they know?







BTW, these are grown in bato buckets and produce fruit from October to June.


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## blacksun (Aug 2, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Why don't you take the time to read my previous posts before assuming you know my situation?




You mentioned increased air circulation as a justification to why mutilating a plant is a good thing.

Is there some benefit of increased air circulation that I did not cover?

Or are you just deflecting a post you don't have a retort for?


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## Situation420 (Aug 2, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> U really think keeftreez pulled 12 Oz of that one plant then u must have never seen a 12oz plant before. Tha guy is bullshitting all the way. His plants are so stunted from defoliation, that they don't even use his full screen of space where there could be more buds. I have tried this dude keeftreez technique and it doesn't work. Ub refers to noobs using these techs is because its true noobs are always looking up ways to get a bigger harvest before they have even grown a plant out. And what comes up these stupid hi yield defoliation posts by keeftreez. I would like to see one of you "defoliators" do a side by side.



First off, yes it is possible. He never said it was 12 oz. dried either. That is not what I was focusing on, I was talking about the fact that he understands you can defoliate without having the same effects as the nay sayers are claiming in this thread. Also, if you look at his photos, they are bigger than the ones people have posted in this thread with their leafy plants and all their experience. I clearly referred to the fact that it is ok to defoliate during veg but no later than the first week of flowering. 

I think it's funny how you also tried his technique once and claim that it doesn't work. So when you do something once, your an expert now? haha. I think that you should sit back and watch someone show you how to do it before you shoot it down because it didn't work out for you so well.


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 3, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> First off, yes it is possible. He never said it was 12 oz. dried either. That is not what I was focusing on, I was talking about the fact that he understands you can defoliate without having the same effects as the nay sayers are claiming in this thread. Also, if you look at his photos, they are bigger than the ones people have posted in this thread with their leafy plants and all their experience. I clearly referred to the fact that it is ok to defoliate during veg but no later than the first week of flowering.
> 
> I think it's funny how you also tried his technique once and claim that it doesn't work. So when you do something once, your an expert now? haha. I think that you should sit back and watch someone show you how to do it before you shoot it down because it didn't work out for you so well.


First off, no one said they were an expert just stating my opinion. And I did do it right I followed his post to a key and it doesn't work from my experience. It's obvious those aren't 12 oz plants. Dude says it all throughout his original post on Icmag I have read the whole damn thing. How do you know he didnt grow the plant out with its leaves he whole time and take pictures after he de fan leafed it before harvest? Lets see you do a side by side then since you do it everything right. I think it's funny how none of you "defoliators" have a side by side.


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 3, 2013)

blacksun said:


> You mentioned increased air circulation as a justification to why mutilating a plant is a good thing.
> 
> Is there some benefit of increased air circulation that I did not cover?
> 
> Or are you just deflecting a post you don't have a retort for?


I simply don't feel the need nor have the energy to readdress an issue I've already covered in depth just a few pages back for someone too lazy to look.


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## Situation420 (Aug 3, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> First off, no one said they were an expert just stating my opinion. And I did do it right I followed his post to a key and it doesn't work from my experience. It's obvious those aren't 12 oz plants. Dude says it all throughout his original post on Icmag I have read the whole damn thing. How do you know he didnt grow the plant out with its leaves he whole time and take pictures after he de fan leafed it before harvest? Lets see you do a side by side then since you do it everything right. I think it's funny how none of you "defoliators" have a side by side.


His post was just an example of defoliating working for someone, that is all I was saying. I dont do side by sides for the internet because I have already seen it a work a dozen times myself. That requires a whole other setup to do and all I would get out of it is a few people that still don't agree or have their own opinions. I like big buds, how bout you?


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 3, 2013)

Excuses, excuses and yet more side stepping and excuses....


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 3, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> His post was just an example of defoliating working for someone, that is all I was saying. I dont do side by sides for the internet because I have already seen it a work a dozen times myself. That requires a whole other setup to do and all I would get out of it is a few people that still don't agree or have their own opinions. I like big buds, how bout you?


You have been growing for only 3 years yet have seen it work dozens of times. You are a flat out liar. Not the first trap you have caught yourself in. And I prefer a nice big yield over a few big buds.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 3, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> Looks like they removed a few leaves from the tomato plants in the greenhouse of my local college. Damn professors and their PhD's, what the heck do they know?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're spinning. I grow tomatoes both outdoors and in a greenhouse and the lower ones always get spotty, yellow, and fall off on their own. In a greenhouse insect and disease pressure is always higher than outdoors. I see no defoliation except at ground level.

Nice try....


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## OLD DUDE (Aug 3, 2013)

I have been following along with this thread for sometime and just wanted to throw in my 37 cents I do agree with the science behind the do not defoliate side! It's actually hard to disagree with it!!! However, my mentor has always did a lot of defoliation and I have tried many many ways and defoliation works best for me!! I run aero, and maybe it is because the nutes are so readily available, I have no idea starting in the 3rd week of veg and every two weeks after that, I remove the big fan leaves from the main stalk or stalks with the final removal at the beginning of week week 5 in flower! Like I said, I totally agree with the do not remove side but what I do works best for me?????


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 3, 2013)

OLD DUDE said:


> I have been following along with this thread for sometime and just wanted to throw in my 37 cents I do agree with the science behind the do not defoliate side! It's actually hard to disagree with it!!! However, my mentor has always did a lot of defoliation and I have tried many many ways and defoliation works best for me!! I run aero, and maybe it is because the nutes are so readily available, I have no idea starting in the 3rd week of veg and every two weeks after that, I remove the big fan leaves from the main stalk or stalks with the final removal at the beginning of week week 5 in flower! Like I said, I totally agree with the do not remove side but what I do works best for me?????


Thank Dude for your input. But it just goes to prove my point that there is no agreement among defoliators of when and how to defoliate.


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## Sir.Ganga (Aug 3, 2013)

Sorry Rosie these guys do this to all threads that they deem silly. Its too bad that their lack of abilities show up almost on all threads.


Uncle Ben said:


> Because we're all getting tired of the same ole stupidity.
> 
> UB


 Then its time you took the hint!


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 3, 2013)

Sir.HatesAlot said:


> Sorry Rosie these guys do this to all threads that they deem silly. Its too bad that their lack of abilities show up almost on all threads. Then its time you took the hint!


He's baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaackkkkkkkk.


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## blacksun (Aug 3, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> I simply don't feel the need nor have the energy to readdress an issue I've already covered in depth just a few pages back for someone too lazy to look.




I covered all of the benefits of "increased air circulation".

If you're too lazy to actually reply, you could have just quoted this line





blacksun said:


> Or are you just deflecting a post you don't have a retort for?




And said "yes, that's what I'm doing".


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 3, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Sorry Rosie these guys do this to all threads that they deem silly. Its too bad that their lack of abilities show up almost on all threads. Then its time you took the hint!


Post your BS methods in the noob section where it belongs and my guess is you will never be bothered again by the Amish Mafia...


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## Situation420 (Aug 3, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You have been growing for only 3 years yet have seen it work dozens of times. You are a flat out liar. Not the first trap you have caught yourself in. And I prefer a nice big yield over a few big buds.


LOL your dumb and obviously ran out of things to say. You guys are so busy trying to catch someone in a lie you don't even stop to think how stupid you sound doing it. I know people that harvest a pound every 2 weeks, people that harvest 8 times a year, seen outdoor grows and setups bigger than you could imagine. I've grown on my own for 3 years, but have friends and family that have done it since hippy times. I've got family that has grown a single bug that weighed more than any indoor plant you have ever grown all together. Stop trying to shoot me down alex. I saw your ghetto setup and your nice plants, but still, you are stuck on a plateau of growing performance, Maybe if you improved a little you could reach the next level and stop trying to jump on every minor detail and learn something.


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## OLD DUDE (Aug 3, 2013)

Ya know, I look at growing weed kinda like a blow job!!! Is there really a way to give a bad blow job, cause the worst I ever received was still pretty damn good!!!!!!!!


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## Situation420 (Aug 3, 2013)

OLD DUDE said:


> Ya know, I look at growing weed kinda like a blow job!!! Is there really a way to give a bad blow job, cause the worst I ever received was still pretty damn good!!!!!!!!


There is such thing as a bad blow job. This chick once put my D between her hands and was rubbing it like she was trying to start a fire with a stick in the woods so damn fast i thought my shit was gonna burst into flames, then she was biting on my shit like it was some beef jerky. That shit hurt and did not feel good at all.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 3, 2013)

OLD DUDE said:


> Ya know, I look at growing weed kinda like a blow job!!! Is there really a way to give a bad blow job, cause the worst I ever received was still pretty damn good!!!!!!!!


Two ways to look at it. either 'Its all good, some are just better than Others' or ' The worst I ever had was next to Wonderful'. Take your pick...both of these though usually produce the same yield.


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## Situation420 (Aug 3, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Two ways to look at it. either 'Its all good, some are just better than Others' or ' The worst I ever had was next to Wonderful'. Take your pick...both of these though usually produce the same yield.


I know my yield is much bigger when it is done the right way


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 3, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I know my yield is much bigger when it is done the right way


And one day you may just get it right no thanks to me of course.....

[video=youtube;umS3XM3xAPk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umS3XM3xAPk[/video]


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 3, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> You're spinning. I grow tomatoes both outdoors and in a greenhouse and the lower ones always get spotty, yellow, and fall off on their own. In a greenhouse insect and disease pressure is always higher than outdoors. I see no defoliation except at ground level.
> 
> Nice try....


It's funny to me that last time I posted this pic, you told me to tell them to "stop the lollipop drills". Your retorts are really all across the board aren't they? The only commonality in your posts seems to be that of negativity.


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 3, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> And one day you may just get it right no thanks to me of course.....
> 
> [video=youtube;umS3XM3xAPk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umS3XM3xAPk[/video]


I'm thinking that someday you'll actually bring something useful forth to the conversation instead of your negativity spam syndrome.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 4, 2013)

I vote this stupid thread be closed.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 4, 2013)

Leaves, leaves and more leaves. Just love them leaves.......


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## Situation420 (Aug 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I vote this stupid thread be closed.


I wouldn't mind, some people just really know how to ruin a thread.


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## Situation420 (Aug 4, 2013)

LOL nice vegged plants, that takes mad skill.



Alexander Supertramp said:


> Leaves, leaves and more leaves. Just love them leaves.......
> 
> View attachment 2762429


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> I vote this stupid thread be closed.


of course you do. That's why you've been trolling all along, isn't it?


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 4, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I wouldn't mind, some people just really know how to ruin a thread.


Yeah, some people. Pot calling kettle black.

Look, as a new member if you'd lurk and use the Search feature rather than coming into a worthless subject that has been hashed and rehashed a 1,000 times, you'd know what I mean. Every one of the defoliation threads ended up like this one.

Bottom line, the guy that started this thread was too damn lazy to use the search feature. That's why they (admin, programmers) went thru all the time and work to put together a Search feature, so that these lazy numbnuts (or attention ho's, take your pick) would ignore it along with the scientific facts I and few others presented.

UB


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 4, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> It's funny to me that last time I posted this pic, you told me to tell them to "stop the lollipop drills". Your retorts are really all across the board aren't they? The only commonality in your posts seems to be that of negativity.


Pot calling the kettle black. You libs and your double standards.  BORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRING.

UB


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 4, 2013)

PJ Diaz said:


> of course you do. That's why you've been trolling all along, isn't it?


Quoting you PJ "yep we trolled this one up good"...


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 4, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> Quoting you PJ "yep we trolled this one up good"...


https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-17.html


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## Situation420 (Aug 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> Look, as a new member if you'd lurk and use the Search feature rather than coming into a worthless subject that has been hashed and rehashed a 1,000 times, you'd know what I mean. Every one of the defoliation threads ended up like this one.
> 
> https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-17.html
> UB


I looked at that thread, and a couple others that were closed. The only thing that was common between them all was You and Alexander Supertramp. It seems like you guys are always stirring up the controversy and rather than solely providing your input, you add additional insult and arrogance to your posts and belittle the members of RIU continuously. That's great that you guys are so knowledgable but can you use some of that intelligence to control your ego's and what comes out of your mouths? That would probably keep half of the threads that get closed from happening and RIU would be a much more relaxed place for discussion.


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 4, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> https://www.rollitup.org/nutrients/570037-so-you-noobs-hooked-cannabis-17.html


Lol. You really do like reposting this don't you? Didn't you see my response just a couple of pages back? Yes, I trolled your troll thread along with a RIU mod who trolled your troll thread too. Buttsore much? Lol.


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 4, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> His post was just an example of defoliating working for someone, that is all I was saying. I dont do side by sides for the internet because I have already seen it a work a dozen times myself. That requires a whole other setup to do and all I would get out of it is a few people that still don't agree or have their own opinions. I like big buds, how bout you?


And like I said you "defoliators" never have a side by side. If you did it it would prove your point but your not willing to do that so ill believe it when I see it. I am an open minded person so seeing a side by side would be interesting. Since you do it all RIGHT like I have seen you said many times already in this thread, it shouldn't be too hard for you to do. Yes I like big buds but big buds come from big leaves. 
BIG LEAVES = BIG BUDS. lets see your side by side to disprove that Mr. I do everything right.


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 4, 2013)

Link me some side by sides then. I just googled side by side defoliation and nothing comes up. I have tried defoliation and I will say my leafy plants always did way better this was tried in soil where the nutes aren't readily available. In hydro it may work cause he nutrients are readily available.


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## Sir.Ganga (Aug 4, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> In hydro it may work cause he nutrients are readily available.


 This statement tells me that your not really looking for help or you would have a better answer than that. Have you even read through this thread...there are many other also. There are many threads on defoliation, take your pick and make up your own mind. Its not hard to find. Believe what you want. I know what works for me.


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## propertyoftheUS (Aug 4, 2013)

Jesus fucking Christ, you guys are absolutely killing me. Why in the FUCK would a plant grow leaves if the fucking plant didn't need/use/depend on them for GROWTH? I mean seriously, have you fucktards ever just sat back and asked yourselves that question? If you have and still think whacking and hacking produce bigger buds yall need to just quit posting here, or any other cannabis forum, all together. Seriously guys, your brains must have as many healthy cells as the plants you're "growing" or I should say stunting. Wait a minute, maybe defoliating only works on Marijuana? That's got to be the reason the other million of gardening forums, magazines, and college courses make no mention of it, and would laugh at you if you did. I've sat back quiet for some time now but perpetuating BULLSHIT like defoliating is about as absurd of concept that I've ever read, well right up there with using super-duper candy space bomb bud blaster 9000, 0-90-0, during flowering. Maybe that's it!!! I've finally got it!! You defoliaters are the same FUCKTARDS who use the 0-90-0 and by the time you are 5 weeks into flowering all of your leaves are shriveled up and fall off, so you all finally got smart and started calling it DEFOLIATING to save face. You all need to move to San Fransico because there is plenty of room for you queery trolls to stay under that Big Ole Bridge, and you'd FIT right in, or they'd FIT right in you, either way get gone.


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 4, 2013)

propertyoftheUS said:


> Wait a minute, maybe defoliating only works on Marijuana? That's got to be the reason the other million of gardening forums, magazines, and college courses make no mention of it, and would laugh at you if you did.


Too bad you're wrong:

http://www.scielo.br/scielo.php?script=sci_arttext&pid=S0102-05362002000300018


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## PJ Diaz (Aug 4, 2013)

Here's another related to tomatoes: http://www.akimoo.com/2013/effect-of-defoliation-at-three-phenological-stages-on-yield-of-tomato-lyco/



> ABSTRACT: A tomato (Lycopersicon esculentum Mill) grown under greenhouse crop WAS in La Plata, Argentina (34 o 58&#8242;S lat, 57 o 54&#8242;W long) with the AIM of studying the effect on the yield of the Elimination of the third leaf trusses entre in three phenological stages: T1) Check (Without defoliation control), T2) pruning at flowering (all flowers open); T3) at petal fall pruning, T4) pruning with 10 mm diameter fruits. FA 144 and Fortaleza Hybrids Were defoliated up to the fifth truss. Final yield and the commercial classes registered Were up to the 7 th truss. All defoliating Treatments Better Than the control yield. Among commercial classes, only quality fruits third (between 120 and 100 g) show Significant Difference between treatments, founding an interaction entre defoliating Treatments and hybrids. Better yield FA 144 in this class for pruning at flowering.
> Key words: leaf pruning, phenology.
> ABSTRACT: In La Plata, Argentina (34 ^0 58 lat. South, 57 ^0 54&#8242; W long.) We conducted a tomato (Lycopersicon esculentum Mill) under plastic cover in order to assess the effect on performance the elimination of the third leaf between clusters in three phenological stages of the bunch: T1) control without defoliation, T2) pruning at flowering (all flowers open); T3) at petal fall pruning, T4) pruning with 10 mm equatorial diameter. FA 144 hybrids and Fortaleza were subjected to the defoliation treatments until the fifth cluster. The final yield and the commercial classes were registered to harvest the 7th cluster. All defoliation treatments led to a final performance improvement than the control. Among the commercial categories, only the third quality fruits (fruits from 120 to 100 g) showed significant differences between treatments, an interaction between pruning treatments and hybrids. FA 144 improved performance in this category for pruning at flowering.
> Keywords: pruning of leaf phenology.
> ...


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## propertyoftheUS (Aug 4, 2013)

Too bad you must not ne able to comprehend very well. If you look at the figures it shows 3 different containers: 1st has one plant, 2nd has two plants, and the 3rd has three plants. So they really didn't have a controlled experiment with the same number of plants in each container with different rates of defoliation. Go back to watching your Simpson's, a little more your speed  "On the other hand, average number of fruits per unit ground area was influenced significantly by plant densities in experiments 1 and 2, by an average factor of 1.6 and 1.3, respectively" Also tomato plants are A-sexual so one would be stupid not to know planting more tomato plants next to each other, cross-pollinating, will produce more fruits per plant than a single large plant by itself. I guess this experiment would be of some use to trolls that like growing hermaphrodites. Come the fuck on.


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## HeartlandHank (Aug 4, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> Not only have I backed up my mouth with pictures, side by side studies, There is pages and pages of evidence that has been presented time and time again and you know what...if its not how they do things ...its bunkim or not backed, or this or that...Just read my friend and you will see what the real story is.


... Where is it? Read what?

I saw that link that OP gave... I saw the ICMAG link that showed the SCROG side by side... Is that the proof and research you speak of?


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## Situation420 (Aug 4, 2013)

Soo....back to actual plant growth. Defoliation has no definite process or procedure to follow that is the same for every plant, because theirs so many ways to do it and so many different reasons why to do it.


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## Situation420 (Aug 4, 2013)

propertyoftheUS said:


> Jesus fucking Christ, you guys are absolutely killing me. Why in the FUCK would a plant grow leaves if the fucking plant didn't need/use/depend on them for GROWTH? I mean seriously, have you fucktards ever just sat back and asked yourselves that question? If you have and still think whacking and hacking produce bigger buds yall need to just quit posting here, or any other cannabis forum, all together. Seriously guys, your brains must have as many healthy cells as the plants you're "growing" or I should say stunting. Wait a minute, maybe defoliating only works on Marijuana? That's got to be the reason the other million of gardening forums, magazines, and college courses make no mention of it, and would laugh at you if you did. I've sat back quiet for some time now but perpetuating BULLSHIT like defoliating is about as absurd of concept that I've ever read, well right up there with using super-duper candy space bomb bud blaster 9000, 0-90-0, during flowering. Maybe that's it!!! I've finally got it!! You defoliaters are the same FUCKTARDS who use the 0-90-0 and by the time you are 5 weeks into flowering all of your leaves are shriveled up and fall off, so you all finally got smart and started calling it DEFOLIATING to save face. You all need to move to San Fransico because there is plenty of room for you queery trolls to stay under that Big Ole Bridge, and you'd FIT right in, or they'd FIT right in you, either way get gone.



LOL its a weed because it grows uncontrollably, you gotta tame that bitch and tell it how you want it to grow. Calm down man geez


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 5, 2013)

propertyoftheUS said:


> Jesus fucking Christ, you guys are absolutely killing me. Why in the FUCK would a plant grow leaves if the fucking plant didn't need/use/depend on them for GROWTH? I mean seriously, have you fucktards ever just sat back and asked yourselves that question? .......


Obviously not.

Couldn't have said it better. "Fucktards" lol, gotta luv it.


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## Situation420 (Aug 5, 2013)

There is a point in every leaves life where it is no longer beneficial to growth but is consuming more energy than it is producing. The same this goes with stems you remove, sometimes the energy a certain stem uses is more than it is going to produce, so you preemptively remove it before it uses too much. I think defoliation is more of a selective pruning technique rather than some gun ho miracle method.


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## Dboi87 (Aug 5, 2013)

hey uncle ben. Since this thread is a waste i figured a lil hijacking cant hurt so bad.  I'm currently reading mel franks book and its a good read. thanks for the suggestion. however, I had ignorantly started my first crop before doing enough research and I've run into a lot of problems. right now my issue is that my leaves have curled down from the sides to look like claws. I tried the forum but no one seems to have a solid answer and honestly your opinion is the only opinion I trust at this point? any insight?


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 5, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> This statement tells me that your not really looking for help or you would have a better answer than that. Have you even read through this thread...there are many other also. There are many threads on defoliation, take your pick and make up your own mind. Its not hard to find. Believe what you want. I know what works for me.


I have been in this thread since the first couple pages. I have been following along. You sir would know that if you read it. What answer would be up to par with you? What were u expecting I really don't see your point? I want to see more legitimate links on defoliation besides keeftreez bullshit post that I read 2 years ago and none of you guys can pull them up. I ain't gonna just take my pick of some dudes claims when they obviously are stunting the shit out of his plants. Like i said lets see one of you big shots do a side by side you guys want to ramble on well a side by side will end this discussion but you won't be able to find one go ahead and google.


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 5, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> There is a point in every leaves life where it is no longer beneficial to growth but is consuming more energy than it is producing. The same this goes with stems you remove, sometimes the energy a certain stem uses is more than it is going to produce, so you preemptively remove it before it uses too much. I think defoliation is more of a selective pruning technique rather than some gun ho miracle method.


Can you site the link where you got this information? It doesn't say that in any books I have read.


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## Situation420 (Aug 5, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> Can you site the link where you got this information? It doesn't say that in any books I have read.


Of course its not going to say it word for word to you but it says it in there. Its probably under leaf abscission or hormonal response. You have to use your brain sometimes not just regurgitate what someone tells you. I don't read of any website by the way, I have family that has been growing since hippy times and learn in a school and from people. Who knows wtf someone is on the internet.


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 5, 2013)

Sir.Ganga said:


> This statement tells me that your not really looking for help or you would have a better answer than that. Have you even read through this thread...there are many other also. There are many threads on defoliation, take your pick and make up your own mind. Its not hard to find. Believe what you want. I know what works for me.



Like I said link some side by sides then guy.


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 5, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> Of course its not going to say it word for word to you but it says it in there. Its probably under leaf abscission or hormonal response. You have to use your brain sometimes not just regurgitate what someone tells you. I don't read of any website by the way, I have family that has been growing since hippy times and learn in a school and from people. Who knows wtf someone is on the internet.


and you still can't post links to back your information. Fail


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 5, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> and you still can't post links to back your information. Fail


Thats right because their so called information thats supposedly has been to for years simply does not exist. And his statement "may not say it word for word"...well says it all! Yep he is a fucktard...


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## Situation420 (Aug 5, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> and you still can't post links to back your information. Fail


I already did explain the science behind defoliation and it is supported by any textbook. Just because you are to lazy to read back through this thread doesn't mean I have to spend my time to look up supporting evidence for you read. Go find it yourself and stop trolling people, your sentence structure and commentary and sense of humor is a lot like Alexander supertramps are you the same people? also, you havn't posted on any other threads for yoru last 10 posts. Stop trolling this one with your duplicate account.


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 5, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> There is a point in every leaves life where it is no longer beneficial to growth but is consuming more energy than it is producing.


That's pure bullshit and again reflects your lack of botanical knowledge. For starts, what's with this "energy" stuff? Don't know what that loosely used cannabis term means but I do know that before a leaf drops the plant will use the goodies it has stored for the benefit of the rest of the plant. You really are grasping at straws now. 

I posted this a million times before but for the new members who can't figure out how to use the Search feature and/or are too lazy, I'll post this again which was rehashed in another forum about 15 years ago. Again and again, with every new crop of newbies..... 

Robert O'Connell IS the authority; you are not in spite of your turbo posting about how wonderful it is to butcher your plants.





> In his book "marijuana botany" Robert Connell Clarke states that:
> 
> Leafing is one of the most misunderstood techniques of drug cannabis cultivation.
> 
> ...


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## Uncle Ben (Aug 5, 2013)

Dboi87 said:


> hey uncle ben. Since this thread is a waste i figured a lil hijacking cant hurt so bad.  I'm currently reading mel franks book and its a good read. thanks for the suggestion. however, I had ignorantly started my first crop before doing enough research and I've run into a lot of problems. right now my issue is that my leaves have curled down from the sides to look like claws. I tried the forum but no one seems to have a solid answer and honestly your opinion is the only opinion I trust at this point? any insight?


See my sig link. It's at the bottom of my posts.


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## Dboi87 (Aug 5, 2013)

Thanks UB!


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## Fazer1rlg (Aug 5, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> I already did explain the science behind defoliation and it is supported by any textbook. Just because you are to lazy to read back through this thread doesn't mean I have to spend my time to look up supporting evidence for you read. Go find it yourself and stop trolling people, your sentence structure and commentary and sense of humor is a lot like Alexander supertramps are you the same people? also, you havn't posted on any other threads for yoru last 10 posts. Stop trolling this one with your duplicate account.



No I am not the same person. I have been reading the whole thread I was in the first couple posts aswell. Read back and you might see you are obviously not reading. You can't simply back up all this evidence you "defoliators" have with links. Just all the keeftrees bullshit. So that is a complete fail its as simple as that. No one is trolling anyone just asking both of you to back up links to your shit and you can't. I didn't know that was considered trolling.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 5, 2013)

Fazer1rlg said:


> No I am not the same person. I have been reading the whole thread I was in the first couple posts aswell. Read back and you might see you are obviously not reading. You can't simply back up all this evidence you "defoliators" have with links. Just all the keeftrees bullshit. So that is a complete fail its as simple as that. No one is trolling anyone just asking both of you to back up links to your shit and you can't. I didn't know that was considered trolling.


They just try to shift attention away from their ignorance.


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## Situation420 (Aug 5, 2013)

Uncle Ben said:


> That's pure bullshit and again reflects your lack of botanical knowledge. For starts, what's with this "energy" stuff? Don't know what that loosely used cannabis term means but I do know that before a leaf drops the plant will use the goodies it has stored for the benefit of the rest of the plant. You really are grasping at straws now.
> 
> I posted this a million times before but for the new members who can't figure out how to use the Search feature and/or are too lazy, I'll post this again which was rehashed in another forum about 15 years ago. Again and again, with every new crop of newbies.....
> 
> Robert O'Connell IS the authority; you are not in spite of your turbo posting about how wonderful it is to butcher your plants.


If plant leaf did not reach a point of when it begins to fall off the plant then why would it even fall off in the first place? I used the word energy because that is what it essentially boils down to in the end of it all. If it benefitted the plant in any way why would it fall off and die? Once it reaches a certain point, if it's not producing energy for the plant or benefitting the plant, even the plant itself defoliates its own branches and leaves. You guys are so pathetic with your claims, I've seen all of you prune and top, that is defoliating, how can you say you dont defoliate? Just because you dont call it that doesnt mean you dont do it.


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## PuffinTuff420 (Aug 5, 2013)

Alot of people defoliate as a form of super cropping, I tried it last harvest along with bending and topping and acomplished 1lb plus plants, some of the inner bud sites grew as big as the upper ones only take some of the bigger upper fan leaves that block alot of light, guess what they grow back, so not really a huge deal as long as you don't take over 30% and don't defoliate after week 4 flower because leave development slows and the plant focuses almost entirely on bud formation. It is true that the leaves are vital for photosynthesis creating energy from light and that they store food in the leaves, but as long as you dont go crazy and strip half of them and have a good nutrient regimen they will be fine. Ask 4 growers the same question and you'll get 4 different answers. Everybody things everybody else is retarded and there the best grower, but i have used these techniques and have had increased yields. People who come on here just to try to debunk a method and argue somebody elses advice need to get a life, just take everyones advice and facts from reading actual marijuana horticulture books and come up with your own routine that fits your schedule and talent. As far as stress goes I dident find one single seed or hermaphredite flower in the whole 4 lbs I got from 4 plants. If you disagree I don't care guys don't bother trying to argue LOL


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## propertyoftheUS (Aug 5, 2013)

Situation420 said:


> If plant leaf did not reach a point of when it begins to fall off the plant then why would it even fall off in the first place? I used the word energy because that is what it essentially boils down to in the end of it all. If it benefitted the plant in any way why would it fall off and die? Once it reaches a certain point, if it's not producing energy for the plant or benefitting the plant, even the plant itself defoliates its own branches and leaves. You guys are so pathetic with your claims, I've seen all of you prune and top, that is defoliating, how can you say you dont defoliate? Just because you dont call it that doesnt mean you dont do it.


Man is your head that far lost in your ass to realize wtf you are saying? Fucking killing me here dude. The point you are missing, I havent a clue as to why seeing how plain as its been put to you, the plants "defoliates" itself after the leaf is spent<<< how the fuck is it going to get to that point if YOU cut the motherfucker off first? Defoliating isnt cutting off diseased leaves or ones who have contributed there worthyness to fix a deficiency and are now turning yellow, defoliating is whacking and hacking PERFECTLY HEALTHY leaves. Do you get it now? Pathetic is undoubtedly what glares back at you every morning while you brush your teeth.


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## Situation420 (Aug 5, 2013)

propertyoftheUS said:


> Man is your head that far lost in your ass to realize wtf you are saying? Fucking killing me here dude. The point you are missing, I havent a clue as to why seeing how plain as its been put to you, the plants "defoliates" itself after the leaf is spent<<< how the fuck is it going to get to that point if YOU cut the motherfucker off first? Defoliating isnt cutting off diseased leaves or ones who have contributed there worthyness to fix a deficiency and are now turning yellow, defoliating is whacking and hacking PERFECTLY HEALTHY leaves. Do you get it now? Pathetic is undoubtedly what glares back at you every morning while you brush your teeth.



Why does the claim "Just because the plant grew it must have grown it for a reason" mean that defoliating is a wrong approach? I don't see how the two are related. I mean I can make the elementary intuitive leap that an any person with quarter of a brain can make that says why would it even be there if it wash't necessary. But how does that prove anything either? Yes plant leaves create energy from the plant, but a plant leaf also needs energy to grow and support itself. I could also get angry and lose my temper like a kindergardener and call people names to help drive my point home but I don't because that shows a lack of self control and is a sign of poor intelligence.


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## Alexander Supertramp (Aug 5, 2013)

propertyoftheUS said:


> Man is your head that far lost in your ass to realize wtf you are saying? Fucking killing me here dude. The point you are missing, I havent a clue as to why seeing how plain as its been put to you, the plants "defoliates" itself after the leaf is spent<<< how the fuck is it going to get to that point if YOU cut the motherfucker off first? Defoliating isnt cutting off diseased leaves or ones who have contributed there worthyness to fix a deficiency and are now turning yellow, defoliating is whacking and hacking PERFECTLY HEALTHY leaves. Do you get it now? Pathetic is undoubtedly what glares back at you every morning while you brush your teeth.


You gotta give him credit he is fighting the good fight...in his own head! Using AN at half dose, 1200-1400 ppm, how the fuck could I burn my plants! Absolutely priceless in my book.


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## Situation420 (Aug 5, 2013)

Alexander Supertramp said:


> You gotta give him credit he is fighting the good fight...in his own head! Using AN at half dose, 1200-1400 ppm, how the fuck could I burn my plants! Absolutely priceless in my book.


Well I know that the way a marijuana plant grows is that it has 2 cotyledon leaves grow, and provide the new growth with enough energy to develop the first set of leaves. Once those start growing, they provide energy to for the next set of leaves. That First set of true leaves then provides the energy for rapid growth to start. This process of preemptive development to produce further growth is what makes the plant a perfect candidate for for defoliating. Once the plant has grown its canopy, the lower canopy dies off because it did its job already. Same thing with the leaves that are now preventing air flow through the plants. The point of defoliating is to remove those leaves once they have done their job and are no longer necessary to be there.


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