# Organic no till, probiotic, knf, jadam, vermicomposting, soil mixes, sips etc... Q & A



## hyroot (Oct 11, 2017)

I'm back. Did you miss me? I'm making this thread about everything organic to answer anyone's questions on how to do anything organic. I read through a bunch of threads in this section and I'm seeing a lot of misinformation. 

Post any questions you might have and I'll do my best to answer them.

I will also post my tutorials here as well.


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## hyroot (Oct 11, 2017)

My soil mix - coots mix adjusted

Equal parts peat moss, wormcastings / compost and garden pumice.

per cubic foot
1/2 cup kelp meal
1/2 cup crab shell meal
1/4 cup ahimsa indian neem cake
1/4 cup karanja cake
1/2 cup malted barley seed
2 cups basalt rock dust
2 cups gypsum rock dust
1/2 cup em1 bokashi or grokashi

Mix and cook in a tote or trash can for 4 weeks ( all soil mixes must be cooked). Cooking is basically fermenting the soil. Allowing everything to be broken down by microbes so everything is readily available for uptake when the plant wants. If you don't cook your soil you will be running into deficiencies early on.

If you use a more amended mix with any bone meals (fish or cattle) you will have a much hotter soil and could burn your plants. With bone meals ( fish or cow) you should cook the soil for 2 months minimum for them to break down fully.

Green sand and dolomite lime are both useless as they take up to 2 years to break down. Dolomite lime has the wrong ratio of cal and mag. You want more of a 5:1 cal:mag ratio with liming. Oyster shell flour or gypsum rock dust is a better option. Dolomite lime is a 2:1 ratio


Never use perlite. It floats to the top of the soil ( not aerating the rest) and over time it breaks down into a powder and clogs the soil.

Rice hulls are better for a mulch as the break down pretty quick. Worms love them

2nd round plant new clone or seedling off to the side of the main stalk.. The main stalk from the last grow will break down eventually. Top with worm castings and water

Also add red wigglers and night crawlers to your pots or sips

Use mulch or cover crops.

Pot size 15 gallons minimum. 25 is better. If you run octo pot style sips you can get away with 10 gal pots


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## hyroot (Oct 11, 2017)

onto ferments. First How to make labs. lactic acid bacteria / lactobacillus.






I'm currently working on other ferment videos and diy sip tutorials. The ferment ones take a month to complete. I will post them soon


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## hyroot (Oct 11, 2017)

Another question I hear a lot is do you want more fungi dominated soil or bacteria dominated soil?

Well you want both, balanced. Root exudates attract bacteria and bacteria attracta fungi. The fungi feed on some bacteria and regulate nutrient uptake.

Another questionI hear a lot is about using mycorrhizae. What to buy or use. You can purchase freeze dried mycorrhizae like great white. The trichoderma in there will outcompete the other bacteria and fungi. If you use cover crops they will naturally facilitate mycorrhizae from the air. The root exudates from short root plants / grass will attract mycos


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## Tim Fox (Oct 12, 2017)

hyroot said:


> I'm back. Did you miss me? I'm making this thread about everything organic to answer anyone's questions on how to do anything organic. I read through a bunch of threads in this section and I'm seeing a lot of misinformation.
> 
> Post any questions you might have and I'll do my best to answer them.
> 
> I will also post my tutorials here as well.


Yes we missed you glad you are back


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## keepsake (Oct 12, 2017)

Cover crops / companion crops.. same thing right?
I bought oregano, chamomile, and cilantro seeds.
What do you think about these?

I didn't watch your fermentation video but I've been reading up on the bokashi bucket where i'd throw my food scraps in there and get a shot of fermented juice every few days. Is that the same thing? When do you use these shots to water plants?

Also for cooking soil, can I cook it in the 15 gallon fabric pot I'm going to plant in? I've accidentally mixed it up in the fabric pot already and it's sitting in my garage. My recipe is a little different:

1/3 peat moss, 1/3 compost/worm casting, 1/3 pumice
1/2 cup per cu ft: kelp meal, neem cake, crustacean meal, oyster shell flour, gypsum
4 cups per cu ft: basalt
1/4 cup per cu ft: ground malted barley

I guess everyone has a different ratio and this is the one I was told to follow. I've already mixed it up with water so it's pretty moist.

I also have glacial rock and alfalfa meal arriving tmrw. Can I still mix those in? If so, how much; 1/2 cup per cu ft?

I have more questions but I'll let you tackle these first lol.. THANKS you're awesome.


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## MrKnotty (Oct 12, 2017)

@hyroot welcome back! Your knowledge is much appreciated. Love the soil mix, mine is pretty much the same. I started using botanical teas this past year with great success (yarrow, chamomile, comfrey, nettle, horsetail, and valerian). I like letting the herbs sit for 3-7 days strain dilute and feed. Sometimes i mix the herbs up, sometimes i do them individually. I was just wondering if your process is similar or different. Any tips or words of wisdom?

Peace!


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## hyroot (Oct 12, 2017)

keepsake said:


> Cover crops / companion crops.. same thing right?
> I bought oregano, chamomile, and cilantro seeds.
> What do you think about these?
> 
> ...



Yes cover crops and companion crops are the same thing.They become companion crops when they aide the main plant. Those are fine. 

I get a mix of winter rye, field peas, ryegrass, crimson clover, and hairy vetch from David's Garden. 

A bokashi bucket is just compost using bokashi to speed up the composting process. The bokashi itself is an imo (indigenous microorganisms)

The ferment video I posted is fermented milk and rice wash to create lactobacillus. There's several recipes for ferments here

https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf

and

http://theunconventionalfarmer.com/


Cooking in the pot is fine. Just cover it and don't let it dry out. Yes you can mix in more amendments. With alfalfa meal less is more. 1/4 cup per cu ft.


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## hyroot (Oct 12, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> @hyroot welcome back! Your knowledge is much appreciated. Love the soil mix, mine is pretty much the same. I started using botanical teas this past year with great success (yarrow, chamomile, comfrey, nettle, horsetail, and valerian). I like letting the herbs sit for 3-7 days strain dilute and feed. Sometimes i mix the herbs up, sometimes i do them individually. I was just wondering if your process is similar or different. Any tips or words of wisdom?
> 
> Peace!



I do ferments. I used to do even amounts of brown sugar and organic material and ferment for a couple weeks. That's the knf method. The sugars trap the microbes and make them go dormant not allowing them to multiply.



Adding water to ferments allows the microbes to multiply. Also makes it easier for cannabis to uptake.

So now I follow more of the Jadam / Gil recipes. But KNF is a good place to start and get a base of knowledge from.

I fill a bucket 1/3 of the way with organic material.
Add 1 pint of activated labs and fill up the rest of the bucket with RO water
Ferment for 3 weeks, Then open and stir, Then ferment for 1 more week.
Then remove 1 pint of solution and add 1 pint of RO water. then use. Roughly 1 tbsp per gallon.

FPE
Flower power- bananas, papaya, pumpkins.
Veg power - plants only fermet one type of plant at a time. I ferment mainly aloe and comfrey separately for veg ferments.

reds, yellows - flower
greens - veg
pinapples and mangos are too acidic

I have a recipe for fermenting citrus to make a pest spray foliar. I will post that tomorrow.


Also make sure to use a sealed container with an air lock. If exposed to outside air while fementing, that can invite harmful pathogens and possibly cause fusarium to develop in the soil.. Make sure it's sealed and use an airlock to allow the co2 to escape


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## calliandra (Oct 13, 2017)

Hey Hyroot! Good to see you back, and commendable, your initiative to start this thread 
Seeing one of your goals is accuracy, I hope you don't mind my saying a few words about the microbes:



hyroot said:


> Root exudates attract bacteria and bacteria attracta fungi. The fungi feed on some bacteria and regulate nutrient uptake.


This is, simply, not correct. 

Root exudates feed bacteria _and _fungi and in this way promote their population growth. 
Depending on the nutrients the plant needs at every moment of its life, the exudates it produces will be composed differently and thus cause different groups of microbes to proliferate, mine whatever is their favorite food more intensely, and store the nutrients in their little bodies.
This in itself will not feed the plant. There need to be predator species that will eat the bacteria and fungi, and excrete excess nutrients in that desired plant available form, just at the right time.

Lots of exciting things are being discovered regarding the fungi, but they do not regulate the uptake of nutrients for the plant, the plant does that. 
I don't know in how far this also applies to saprophytes (fungi who sustain themselves from the mineral and organic matter of the soil vs being hosted by a plant as mycos are), but Jeff Loewenfels describes in _Teaming with Fungi_ how it has been found that at the fungal tip, up to 40% of the fungal DNA is actually bacterial in nature (what they do with that, is yet to be ascertained  )
In other reasearch it has been found that fungi secrete their own exudates to culture bacteria that will assist them enzymatically with their digestion processes. So the fungi have their own little flock of helpers to get their job done.
As far as is known so far! haha
Knowledge in this area is being gained in leaps as we write 

Cheers!


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2017)

calliandra said:


> Hey Hyroot! Good to see you back, and commendable, your initiative to start this thread
> Seeing one of your goals is accuracy, I hope you don't mind my saying a few words about the microbes:
> 
> 
> ...


 
Actually I am correct

From the first chapter of Teaming With Microbes




Yes bacteria feed on root exudates. Those carb sugars they feed on is what attracts them to the rhizosphere




Protozoa are eukaryotic species of fungi


I have all 3 books in the series. Teaming With Microbes, Teaming With Nutrients, and Teaming With Fungi


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## calliandra (Oct 13, 2017)

Oh. I'm so sorry you're going to make a "who's right" thing out if it. 
I was hoping for dialogue, which is so desperately needed in the face of the many many mysteries we have to manage in practice.

The texts you posted actually reflect what _I_ was saying. 
What you wrote however does NOT correspond to the text. At least I found no passage in there (or anywhere else to date for that matter, in my studies specifically on the soil food web over the past year) that says anything close to what you are maintaining.



hyroot said:


> Protozoa are eukaryotic species of *fungi*


No. 
Protozoa, now increasingly denominated as protists, are NOT fungi.



hyroot said:


> Root exudates attract bacteria and* bacteria attracta fungi*


No.
Bacteria and fungi do have interactions and relationships (as I was pointing out by a few examples), but what makes the nutrient cycling spin is when the microbes* from the higher trophic levels* come and eat the bacteria and fungi. It's expressly said so in the first paragraph of Teaming with Microbes page you so kindly posted.

You may have read the books, but I'm not sure you understood.
And since you seem to be totally closed to revision, I can only wish you good luck.
Too bad you're now going to perpetuate exactly what you set out to remediate with your thread: misinformation.
Cheers


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2017)

calliandra said:


> Oh. I'm so sorry you're going to make a "who's right" thing out if it.
> I was hoping for dialogue, which is so desperately needed in the face of the many many mysteries we have to manage in practice.
> 
> The texts you posted actually reflect what _I_ was saying.
> ...



You started off telling me I was wrong. Clearly I wasn't. You set out to be the one upper know it all who doesn't know. I can show more examples. Just seems you forgot early reading. The first and 2nd paragraph in the first pic both say root exudates attract bacteria and fungi... bacteria elude protozoa 

Look up what eukaryotic species of fungi are.


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## calliandra (Oct 13, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Look up what eukaryotic species of fungi are.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungus

As said, they are NOT protozoa.



hyroot said:


> The first and 2nd paragraph in the first pic both say root exudates attra t bacteria and fungi...


I never contested that. I do contest the second half of your original sentence, as I tried to show you in my previous post.



hyroot said:


> You set out to be the one upper know it all who doesn't know


Oh I know nothing, something anyone who has tried to truly learn something in this area is aware of.


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## im4satori (Oct 14, 2017)




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## im4satori (Oct 14, 2017)

im curious

do you find yourself lacking in K with your soil mix? do you do anything particular to increase potassium... what do you consider your primary source of K in the mix?


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## hyroot (Oct 14, 2017)

im4satori said:


> im curious
> 
> do you find yourself lacking in K with your soil mix? do you do anything particular to increase potassium... what do you consider your primary source of K in the mix?


Kelp meal, neem cake, karanja meal, basalt, gypsum gro kashi, worm castings, compost and barley seed all have potassium. The crab shell meal is the only amendment that does not have potassium.


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## neroceasar (Oct 15, 2017)

google's crazy, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protozoa:
In some systems of biological classification, the *Protozoa* are defined as a diverse group of unicellular eukaryotic organisms.
semantics i suppose. I can vouch that CC mix creates some of the healthiest plants. Both in yield and quality. santori do you consider K to be the "sugar" or "sweetener" nutrient?


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## im4satori (Oct 15, 2017)

neroceasar said:


> semantics i suppose


yup


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## im4satori (Oct 15, 2017)

neroceasar said:


> satori do you consider K to be the "sugar" or "sweetener" nutrient?


I just felt like I was chasing K and opted to add some potash and wondered if others had a similar experience as myself


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## neroceasar (Oct 15, 2017)

hey hyroot, what part of the pumpkin do you use for the FPEs? and would you say that FPEs are the same as EM-4? only ever found the process on a permi site, but it was just em-1 (lacto syrum) fermented a few more times with fruit peels and the like. reason i ask is they also said that em-5 was just some ratio of em4 with vinegar and alcohol.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2017)

neroceasar said:


> hey hyroot, what part of the pumpkin do you use for the FPEs? and would you say that FPEs are the same as EM-4? only ever found the process on a permi site, but it was just em-1 (lacto syrum) fermented a few more times with fruit peels and the like. reason i ask is they also said that em-5 was just some ratio of em4 with vinegar and alcohol.


Use the flesh and skin of the pumpkin. Toss or compost the stem.. The seeds, cook or make an sst or grow more pumpkins.

EM1 liquid mixed with vegetable and fruits. Then ferment for a week. It will develop into EM2.
EM2 liquid mixed with bran, brown sugar and rice water and ferment for about a week, it will become EM3.
Let ferment for about another week without adding anything. It will become EM4.
Add vinegar and distilled alochol. Then ferment for about another week, it will become EM5

The FPE recipe I'm doing; For flower I'm sticking to using red, yellow, orange fruits. No citrus. Its fermented for 4 weeks total. 

For veg I'm using green plants. All my other veggie scraps go to the worm bin.

I'm using labs in my FPE not EM1.

EM1 is the same lacto bacteria in labs plus photsynthetic bacteria and yeast.


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## hyroot (Oct 16, 2017)

im4satori said:


> I just felt like I was chasing K and opted to add some potash and wondered if others had a similar experience as myself



Did you cook your soil or have a good amount of worm castings? Adding gro kashi or em1 bokashi will speed up the breaking down process. Fermenting red, yellow, orange fruits produces high potassium ferments too

You might have strains that are heavy feeders and need more potassium than others.


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2017)

Kona sunset under 315 cmh 

 

Pink 2.0 under induction
 

Gorilla Glue 4 under 315 cmh


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## Bungalow (Oct 18, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Use the flesh and skin of the pumpkin. Toss or compost the stem.. The seeds, cook or make an sst or grow more pumpkins.
> 
> EM1 liquid mixed with vegetable and fruits. Then ferment for a week. It will develop into EM2.
> EM2 liquid mixed with bran, brown sugar and rice water and ferment for about a week, it will become EM3.
> ...


Mind elaborating on no citrus? Worms? Thanks for sharing!


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2017)

Bungalow said:


> Mind elaborating on no citrus? Worms? Thanks for sharing!



Citrus is too acidic. It will fry plants if watered into the soil. 

Worms - red wigglers - vermicomposting- worm castings


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## Bungalow (Oct 18, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Citrus is too acidic. It will fry plants if watered into the soil.
> 
> Worms - red wigglers - vermicomposting- worm castings


At any dilution rate? I know some use citric acid to drop ph, or for specific applications like trace metals to increase their availability - especially when using an alkaline water source. I can see it being too much in container mixes already leaning acidic.


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2017)

Bungalow said:


> At any dilution rate? I know some use citric acid to drop ph, or for specific applications like trace metals to increase their availability - especially when using an alkaline water source. I can see it being too much in container mixes already leaning acidic.


With ferments citrus, pineapples and mangos are too acidic at any rate. For foliars at night is a different story. They all have a ph of 2.0.


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## keepsake (Oct 18, 2017)

So I have plants in week 4 of bloom. I am currently growing them with bottled nutes.

Can I use FFJ and KNF stuff to make them grow better? Or just stick with the bottles for this run?


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2017)

keepsake said:


> So I have plants in week 4 of bloom. I am currently growing them with bottled nutes.
> 
> Can I use FFJ and KNF stuff to make them grow better? Or just stick with the bottles for this run?



They will help. You will still have salts and chemicals in the soil. It will help bioremediate the soil. Plants get better and better each generation when using ferments

KNF - Korean Natural Farming

Jadam - Revised version of KNF

FFJ - Fermented Fruit Juice ( red yellow, orange fruits, no citrus)
FPJ - Fermented Plant Juice ( 1 type of fermented plants at a time)
FAA - Fish Amino Acids (fermented fish)
FPE - Fermented Plant Extract (fruits or plants using labs and water in ferment)
Labs - Lactic Acid Bacteria / Lactobacillus (fermented milk and rice wash and activated with molasses or brown sugar and water)
IMO - Indiginious Microorganisms - Fermented rice outdoors
Bokashi - IMO - Fermented rice bran or wheat bran with molasses, water, and labs or em1


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## MrKnotty (Oct 18, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Kona sunset under 315 cmh
> 
> View attachment 4028645
> 
> ...


Just harvested some GG #4, I'm an outdoor guy though. Love that plants structure, colas were as thick as my damn arm too so that's a plus!


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## Cheesy Bo' Greesy (Oct 25, 2017)

Beautiful thread Hyroot. Appreciate all the valuable information! Im taking notes for certain. A+.


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## DonTesla (Oct 26, 2017)

Yeah the veganics thread was especially disappointing to me, haha.


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## Fastslappy (Oct 28, 2017)

Hey , hyroot
What's yer opinion on soft rock phosphate,
I forgot why I have a huge 5 gallon of the shit .
And didn't use it . . . . . . . . 

I smell like dead fish atm , soil building is fun stuff


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2017)

Fastslappy said:


> Hey , hyroot
> What's yer opinion on soft rock phosphate,
> I forgot why I have a huge 5 gallon of the shit .
> And didn't use it . . . . . . . .
> ...


Its fine. It doesn't have the heavy metals like hard rock. If you have other sources of p its not necessary. It does have trace minerals too. Jeremy has it in one of the soil mixes and nutrient packs they sell at bas. I never use it personally. I use crab shell meal for p.


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2017)

Good read on phos uptake 

http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/116/2/447.full


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## keepsake (Oct 28, 2017)

I'm letting my coot recipe soil mix break down outside... even tho i was told i can plant right into it, it just smells too funky from all the amendments so I'm letting it sit outside for the gro kashi and em1 to help take the smell away.

anyways, i see some gnats flying in and crawling around... are they going to infest my soil?

what can i do to prevent ?


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2017)

keepsake said:


> I'm letting my coot recipe soil mix break down outside... even tho i was told i can plant right into it, it just smells too funky from all the amendments so I'm letting it sit outside for the gro kashi and em1 to help take the smell away.
> 
> anyways, i see some gnats flying in and crawling around... are they going to infest my soil?
> 
> what can i do to prevent ?


Worm castings top dress or adding nematodes both work on gnats.


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## Cheesy Bo' Greesy (Oct 29, 2017)

Excellent article. Especially enjoyed the Mycorrhizal portion near the end. My question is which species of mycorrhizae is best for the marijuana plant? Which bacteria as well?

Is there a product out there offering mycorrhizae and/or bacteria which are most beneficial to the marijuana plant?

If so please share.


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## Fastslappy (Oct 29, 2017)

keepsake said:


> I'm letting my coot recipe soil mix break down outside... even tho i was told i can plant right into it, it just smells too funky from all the amendments so I'm letting it sit outside for the gro kashi and em1 to help take the smell away.
> 
> anyways, i see some gnats flying in and crawling around... are they going to infest my soil?
> 
> what can i do to prevent ?


If u left the soil outside moist ,u gotta infestation , nematodes work the best followed by red mites ,rove beetles
BT doesn't Work on fungus flies ,it slows them but really it's just getting worse than slow them .
When u do treat with nematodes treat the outside areas that r moist as well as yer soil ,treat all potted plants ,even house plants .secret to nematodes is cold clean water at least below 50f to mix the worms into , don't buy nematodes on a sponge, pay extra get a tray or envelopes,nematodes r sold as a ag product ,some vendors buy trays ,then split them up ,adding the nematodes active into the sponge, this is really bad cause by the time u get them ,they r really stressed or dead , if they smell like fish they r dead .


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## RandomHero8913 (Oct 29, 2017)

Cheesy Bo' Greesy said:


> Excellent article. Especially enjoyed the Mycorrhizal portion near the end. My question is which species of mycorrhizae is best for the marijuana plant? Which bacteria as well?
> 
> Is there a product out there offering mycorrhizae and/or bacteria which are most beneficial to the marijuana plant?
> 
> If so please share.


Here you go Brochacho,
https://www.rollitup.org/t/mycorrhiza-101.262494/


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2017)

Fastslappy said:


> If u left the soil outside moist ,u gotta infestation , nematodes work the best followed by red mites ,rove beetles
> BT doesn't Work on fungus flies ,it slows them but really it's just getting worse than slow them .
> When u do treat with nematodes treat the outside areas that r moist as well as yer soil ,treat all potted plants ,even house plants .secret to nematodes is cold clean water at least below 50f to mix the worms into , don't buy nematodes on a sponge, pay extra get a tray or envelopes,nematodes r sold as a ag product ,some vendors buy trays ,then split them up ,adding the nematodes active into the sponge, this is really bad cause by the time u get them ,they r really stressed or dead , if they smell like fish they r dead .


You're confusing your mites. Hypoaspis mites are brown. Red spider mites are 3 times larger than two spotted spider mites and cause leaf damage similar to what thrips do. They don't make webs. They're very common in the desert.


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## Fastslappy (Oct 29, 2017)

hyroot said:


> You're confusing your mites. Hypoaspis mites are brown. Red spider mites are 3 times larger than two spotted spider mites and cause leaf damage similar to what thrips do. They don't make webs. They're very common in the desert.


Nope red,brown same mite that I'm talking about ,these don't Web & r never off the soil unless attacking something or trying to escape bad conditions they look red to me & most would say brown I don't know ,but it's the soil mites I got from Evergreen, they don't eat plants ,they attack anything on the soil 
I know what a spider mite looks like i have had , red , 2 spot , russet


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## SSGrower (Oct 29, 2017)

@hyroot could you please elaborate on this comment:



hyroot said:


> Veg power - plants only fermet one type of plant at a time. I ferment mainly aloe and comfrey separately for veg ferments.


What is the reason to ferment seperatly, is it because of different fermentation rate? There are different strategies in winemaking for doing blended wines, blend grapes or juice prior to ferment, after primary ferment before ageing, or even at botteling. Curious to your reasoning and is it just for veg ferments you do this?

Please elaborate on the azomite, aluminium, and aflotoxins (sp?), like others I have this product and would rather use it than throw it away (i.e. disperse it in and amongst my non consumable landscape) if it can be done so safely.

Also haven't seen any mention of vermeculite, it paramagnetic, has mineral content.....

Regards,
SSG


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## RandomHero8913 (Oct 29, 2017)

SSGrower said:


> @hyroot could you please elaborate on this comment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fermenting one plant at a time is wisdom from Gil Carandang at the unconventionalfarmer. My guess is so that there is only one food source and that way you ensure proper fermentation. You can combine afterwards. 

I think if you were to combine before fermentation, like you said, some things have different fermentation times. Also, the organisms breaking it down may prefer one over the other giving you a non-balanced final product. I haven't done any testing on this so take my info with a grain of salt.


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## SSGrower (Oct 29, 2017)

RandomHero8913 said:


> Fermenting one plant at a time is wisdom from Gil Carandang at the unconventionalfarmer. My guess is so that there is only one food source and that way you ensure proper fermentation. You can combine afterwards.
> 
> I think if you were to combine before fermentation, like you said, some things have different fermentation times. Also, the organisms breaking it down may prefer one over the other giving you a non-balanced final product. I haven't done any testing on this so take my info with a grain of salt.


Well I guess we all do it differently, I'm on much smaller scale so I make my fermen's in quart jars instead of 5 gallon buckets. I try to get everything ground or chopped up evenly, lately I'll take some bud, yarrow, and even random garden clippings. Not allowing it to go anarobic seems key. 
I get what you say about specializing the food source for specific mycos, but there is quite a codependency of these in nature so there being my logic for mixing the food sources.


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## Cheesy Bo' Greesy (Oct 29, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Good read on phos uptake
> 
> http://www.plantphysiol.org/content/116/2/447.full





RandomHero8913 said:


> Here you go Brochacho,
> https://www.rollitup.org/t/mycorrhiza-101.262494/


Yo! thanks my man! Appreciate that.


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## MrKnotty (Oct 30, 2017)

@hyroot was wondering if you have ever fermented horsetail? It's loaded with silica and makes a wonderful amendment. I'm wondering though if one fermented horsetail if the resulting concoction would resemble Pro Tekt. I know that I have read that when fermenting a plant only the primary nutrient is extracted. So for instance if we ferment Alfalfa we extract the nitrogen but not the Tricantonal. So if we ferment Horsetail would we even extract the silica?


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## hyroot (Oct 30, 2017)

SSGrower said:


> @hyroot could you please elaborate on this comment:
> 
> 
> 
> What is the reason to ferment seperatly, is it because of different fermentation rate? There are different strategies in winemaking for doing blended wines, blend grapes or juice prior to ferment, after primary ferment before ageing, or even at botteling. Curious to your reasoning and is it just for veg ferments you do this?


The reason for fermenting plant types separately is because of the type of hormones and auxins the plant produces. Also only cut and ferment plant tips because most of the hormones and auxins are in the tips. ie flowers, buds, leaves etc...




SSGrower said:


> Please elaborate on the azomite, aluminium, and aflotoxins (sp?), like others I have this product and would rather use it than throw it away (i.e. disperse it in and amongst my non consumable landscape) if it can be done so safely.


Aflotoxins are toxic carcinogens. Aluminum oxide binds with aflotoxins. It s good to help cleaning up contaminated soil among other things. But I wouldn't feed it to my soil. Azomite contains aluminum oxide.





SSGrower said:


> Also haven't seen any mention of vermeculite, it paramagnetic, has mineral content.....
> 
> Regards,
> SSG


Vermiculite contains asbestos and vermiculite isn't soluble. It takes years to break down


----------



## hyroot (Oct 30, 2017)

MrKnotty said:


> @hyroot was wondering if you have ever fermented horsetail? It's loaded with silica and makes a wonderful amendment. I'm wondering though if one fermented horsetail if the resulting concoction would resemble Pro Tekt. I know that I have read that when fermenting a plant only the primary nutrient is extracted. So for instance if we ferment Alfalfa we extract the nitrogen but not the Tricantonal. So if we ferment Horsetail would we even extract the silica?


The enzymes, hormones and auxins in a ferment releases all the minerals and nutrients. With horse tail the silica will be readily available.

Triacontonal is a plant hormone. With fermenting plants and fruits, hormones are mostly available in the plant tips in the morning before sunrise before the plant goes into a photosythesis state. So in order for it to be available you would have to pick fresh alfalfa early in the morning and ferment it right away.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Oct 30, 2017)

Have you started your planter @hyroot . The one we spoke of in the old thread.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2017)

Lightgreen2k said:


> Have you started your planter @hyroot . The one we spoke of in the old thread.



not yet. I'm still braining out on other build designs and waiting on money. The soma buckets I am running are working like sips. That wasn't my intention. They're kicking ass anyway. I have few other ideas for different builds.


----------



## keepsake (Nov 1, 2017)

RO water or aerated tap water?

Jeremy from Buildasoil strongly advises me to ditch my RO system.
But my tap water is 600ppm at 7.5ph


----------



## Fastslappy (Nov 1, 2017)

keepsake said:


> RO water or aerated tap water?
> 
> Jeremy from Buildasoil strongly advises me to ditch my RO system.
> But my tap water is 600ppm at 7.5ph


Says the guy from CO , I've used ro for 20 years in my greenhouse, there's a reason I still use it ,my water is really hard & is a mix of grd water ,river both high calcium carbonates, let alone the use of copper products to reduce algae in the storage lakes . That river is the Russian that drains wine country, Lotsa ag run off 
Put CA in your mix yll not have an issue I use 4 sources of CA , for mag I use sulpomag


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## Fastslappy (Nov 1, 2017)

So we can't use rain water ? RO is just like rain water 
Sorry just sounds silly


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2017)

keepsake said:


> RO water or aerated tap water?
> 
> Jeremy from Buildasoil strongly advises me to ditch my RO system.
> But my tap water is 600ppm at 7.5ph





Fastslappy said:


> Says the guy from CO , I've used ro for 20 years in my greenhouse, there's a reason I still use it ,my water is really hard & is a mix of grd water ,river both high calcium carbonates, let alone the use of copper products to reduce algae in the storage lakes . That river is the Russian that drains wine country, Lotsa ag run off
> Put CA in your mix yll not have an issue I use 4 sources of CA , for mag I use sulpomag


You can use.one of those counter top water filter systems that removes the chems or most of them and doesnt create waste water like RO systems do.

I water my plants with areated tap water with a 7 ph 200 ppm's. I use RO water for drinking, cooking, making ice, and making bubble hash.


----------



## Fastslappy (Nov 1, 2017)

hyroot said:


> You can use.one of those counter top water filter systems that removes the chems or most of them and doesnt create waste water like RO systems do.
> 
> I water my plants with areated tap water with a 7 ph 200 ppm's. I use RO water for drinking, cooking, making ice, and making bubble hash.


no water gets wasted here all waste brine goes to yard,trees,used to grow rare orchids for profit ,had a ebay business , the local tap water here killed them ,been using RO for 20 years now


----------



## keepsake (Nov 1, 2017)

I've just transplanted 14 day old seedlings into a coot's soil mix.
Should I top dress with worm castings and grounded malted barley?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2017)

keepsake said:


> I've just transplanted 14 day old seedlings into a coot's soil mix.
> Should I top dress with worm castings and grounded malted barley?


Yeah go ahead.


----------



## SSGrower (Nov 2, 2017)

I can understand the worry with asbestos 2 concerns, if it is friable and are you creating or being exposed to dust/fibers. I hope the manufacturer and supplier protect their employees and will investigate before making another purchase. Thanks to your warning I will exercise more caution when mixing it. It is also my understanding that it is present in all volcanic rock? Since it is kept wet and I do want it to last as I am working on taking a quasi rols method to something I can sustain and maintain with minimal effort.

Oon that note I thought crystalline silica could be present in amendment like gypsum, and possibly diatomatious earth any insight you have here would be appreciated.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 3, 2017)

SSGrower said:


> I can understand the worry with asbestos 2 concerns, if it is friable and are you creating or being exposed to dust/fibers. I hope the manufacturer and supplier protect their employees and will investigate before making another purchase. Thanks to your warning I will exercise more caution when mixing it. It is also my understanding that it is present in all volcanic rock? Since it is kept wet and I do want it to last as I am working on taking a quasi rols method to something I can sustain and maintain with minimal effort.
> 
> Oon that note I thought crystalline silica could be present in amendment like gypsum, and possibly diatomatious earth any insight you have here would be appreciated.


Gypsum and other rock dusts have trace amounts. Always wear a painters mask when dealing with rock dusts and mixing soils. You don't want to breathe in those particles.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 4, 2017)

Cheesy Bo' Greesy said:


> Yo! thanks my man! Appreciate that.


This is late but..
Great white / plant success/ og bio war /
Whatever is local to you


----------



## Cheesy Bo' Greesy (Nov 5, 2017)

Lightgreen2k said:


> This is late but..
> Great white / plant success/ og bio war /
> Whatever is local to you


much appreciated brother! this is a great community.


----------



## keepsake (Nov 5, 2017)

The very bottom little leaf is yellow and dried. What caused this? This is clackamas coot's recipe soil topped with bagged ewc and mulched with barley straw.


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## hyroot (Nov 5, 2017)

keepsake said:


> The very bottom little leaf is yellow and dried. What caused this? This is clackamas coot's recipe soil topped with bagged ewc and mulched with barley straw.



It's fine. That's the cotyledon. Those almost always yellow early on. When plants yellow over night, that's usually caused by the soil drying out.


----------



## keepsake (Nov 5, 2017)

hyroot said:


> It's fine. That's the cotyledon. Those almost always yellow early on. When plants yellow over night, that's usually caused by the soil drying out.


Thanks

can you stop by n check out my grow journal.
any input from you is well valued by me.
thanks

https://www.rollitup.org/t/strawberry-cough-quantum-board-led-organic-living-soil.952813/


----------



## hyroot (Nov 8, 2017)

Some AEM Bokashi thats drying


----------



## hyroot (Nov 8, 2017)

Where to get the ingredients

Wheat bran or rice bran can be purchased at any co-op or grain/feed supply store. A 50-pound bag of wheat bran usually costs about $15 (plus tax). The molasses can be purchased at a feed store or in any grocery store in the baking section (near the sugars). A quart of molasses is usually about $5. Blackstrap, cane, or feed molasses are what you want. Other sugars can be used, but require recipe changes to accommodate for lack of sugar and minerals and are not as stable during fermentation.


*Ingredient *_______________10 lbs___________________ 50 lbs_____________ 2,000 lbs 

*EM•1 or AEM* _____________4 Tablespoons_____________ 3/4 Cup___________1 Gallon

*Molasses*_________________4 Tablespoons_____________3/4 Cup ___________1 Gallon 

*Water*____________________10 Cups __________________3-4 Gallons________75-100 Gallons

*Bran (carbon material)*______10 lbs ___________________ 50 lbs____________2000 lbs
​

*Bokashi Recipe & Bokashi Bran​*​Materials:


Ingredients
Large black plastic garbage bag or airtight container(s)
Something to mix the materials in or on
Procedure:


Mix one gallon of the water with the molasses to dissolve the molasses. Mix in the EM•1 or AEM

Mix the liquid thoroughly into the bran.
Squeeze some of the bran into a ball. If it holds shape and no extra liquid comes out, it is the correct moisture. Put into bag or container. If it is too dry, add more water and mix.
If using the bag, tie the bag tightly, squeezing out excess air. If using a container, press down mixture and cover container tightly.
Place mixture somewhere warm and out of the way. Let it ferment for a minimum of two weeks. Longer is fine.
When fermentation is complete, you may notice some white mold on/in the bokashi. This is good. Black or green mold means some air got into the container or it was too moist and is not desirable. You can use the material as is without drying, stored in a closed container, for up to 2 weeks, or dry for long-term storage.
Keep airtight during storage, whether dry or wet.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 8, 2017)

hyroot said:


> ..
> I have a recipe for fermenting citrus to make a pest spray foliar. I will post that tomorrow.
> ...


Hey there Hy, How are tings?

Couple questions for ya if you dont mind!
1. First off, um, Did you happen to forget about this one by chance (citrus foliar), or did I happen to miss it? hah 

2. Also, so you _did_ cut out alfalfa meal in the end, hey. Was it causing too much leafage or what are your thoughts there? Do you still endorse using TRIA at all, whether foliar or otherwise, or is the malted barley its replacement for ya?

3. Can you elaborate on the difference between Karanja and Neem, if you don't mind, quickly, and why you choose both exactly, that would be cool! I know they are super similar but nice to hear your thoughts too.

4. Have you ever experimented with higher kelp amounts beyond 0.42% of the mix (1/2 cup per CF).. I see that (up here anyway) producers say to use 2 to 3% especially when in pots, so just curious there, mostly cause I had a really potent round when pushing the limits a bit!

5. Lastly, I see your rock mix has gone back to using basalt and gypsum, so no more GRD in sight, nor Oyster SF, nor bentonite volcanic RD, why the change and progression, mate, if you may?

Have a great day, thanks in advance, and keep up the good organic work, look forward to smoking some of your flowers someday when down in the US to see how they compare.

Cheers,

DonT


----------



## hyroot (Nov 8, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> Hey there Hy, How are tings?
> 
> Couple questions for ya if you dont mind!
> 1. First off, um, Did you happen to forget about this one by chance (citrus foliar), or did I happen to miss it? hah


I was going to make a tutorial video but experimenting withh othe recipes first. Here is the recipe I started with.

citrus ferment recipe

2 cups of citrus peels
1/2 cup of brown sugar
1 tsp dry yeast
4 cups of clean water

ferment in a sealed container with an airlock for 2 1/2 weeks then strain. Add 1 cup of apple cider vinegar.

use 3 oz per gallon of water and *only spray at night*. It will burn plants during the day.

I'm currently testing out 2 other recipes. One without water and more sugar. water reduces osmostic pressure when using sugar. Another using labs and water like the flower power

Labs breaks down organic material. Sugar relies on osmotic pressure to pull juices from fruits and plants.



DonTesla said:


> 2. Also, so you _did_ cut out alfalfa meal in the end, hey. Was it causing too much leafage or what are your thoughts there? Do you still endorse using TRIA at all, whether foliar or otherwise, or is the malted barley its replacement for ya?


I only use alfalfa meal in veg tea's and I feed it to the worms. They love it. Yes when it was in my soil mix it did promote more leaf. Too much N from the alfalfa attracts pests and changes flavor.. I do not know what you mean by TRIA



DonTesla said:


> 3. Can you elaborate on the difference between Karanja and Neem, if you don't mind, quickly, and why you choose both exactly, that would be cool! I know they are super similar but nice to hear your thoughts too.


Neem oil is cold-pressed from kernels of fruit from the Azadirachta indica tree.The cake is made from the Neem tree seed residue . Karanja oil is cold-pressed from seeds of the Pongam tree. Karanja Cake is the residue obtained from Karanja seed kernels which have been crushed to extract the oil. Neem has Azadiractin and Karanja does not. Both are pest inhibitors. Both rich in npk and other minerals and elements



DonTesla said:


> 4. Have you ever experimented with higher kelp amounts beyond 0.42% of the mix (1/2 cup per CF).. I see that (up here anyway) producers say to use 2 to 3% especially when in pots, so just curious there, mostly cause I had a really potent round when pushing the limits a bit!


I have done more kelp with plants that are potassium hogs. No ill effects



DonTesla said:


> 5. Lastly, I see your rock mix has gone back to using basalt and gypsum, so no more GRD in sight, nor Oyster SF, nor bentonite volcanic RD, why the change and progression, mate, if you may?
> 
> 
> Have a great day, thanks in advance, and keep up the good organic work, look forward to smoking some of your flowers someday when down in the US to see how they compare.
> ...



Gypsum seems to work better than oyster shell flour for cal mag and it has sulfur. My blueberries outside love gypsum. Most rock dust is essentially volcanic rock dust excluding glacial. Basalt made buds denser and increased brix levels quite a bit. It's soluble and works almost intsantly. The bentonite rock dust seem to clump up and it takes a while to break down.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 8, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Yes when it was in my soil mix it did promote more leaf. Too much N from the alfalfa attracts pests and changes flavor.. I do not know what you mean by TRIA


Awesome replies, man. Big thanks.
By TRIA I just meant Triacontanol, the active ingredient in Alfalfa meal, which I find a bit over rated as well, in a mix at least. Alfalfa _seed_ sprout tea in flower, if stretching, I might endorse, but cool to see you agree about the leafage. I got a 4 to 1 calyx to leaf ratio on a plant when I cut it out the mix and haven't looked back, since!



hyroot said:


> ... Neem has Azadiractin and Karanja does not.


Ah, very nice. So if choosing just one, you would go for the Neem and its Azadiractin, eh?



hyroot said:


> ... I have done more kelp with plants that are potassium hogs. No ill effects


Beauty. I too have pushed the amounts, as high as 2% of total volume, with no ill effects, so just thought I would ask about your experiences. Right on. I also see that the numbers vary quite a bit for most the meals, so thats something to consider (for Hy's readers here)



hyroot said:


> ...Gypsum seems to work better than oyster shell flour for (it has) cal mag _and_ it has sulfur. My blueberries outside love gypsum. Most rock dust is essentially volcanic rock dust excluding glacial. Basalt made buds denser and increased brix levels quite a bit. It's soluble and works almost intsantly. The bentonite rock dust seem to clump up and it takes a while to break down.


Yeah I only mess with glacial rock dusts, myself, as thats what Canada is abundant in, hence Gaia Green setting up shop up here, but since we like to drop Oyster Shell Flour too, I agree gypsum is great. Sulphur also helps terpene development so we love it. The clays do seem to be a bit tricky so I think you went with a good little mix. The basalt making buds denser, that's interesting. Any idea what that is attributed to, by chance? Again, thanks for the replies, man. Progressive.


----------



## keepsake (Nov 9, 2017)

Well I just mixed up 6 cubic ft of soil with this recipe:

*3 cups (1/2 cup per cu ft):*
neem cake
crustacean meal
kelp meal

*12 cups (2 cups per cu ft):*
gypsum
basalt

*2 cups (1/3 cup per cu ft)*
oyster shell flour (just cus I had some left)
grounded malted barley seeds

Watered down with em1 diluted water and generous sprinkle of gro kashi to top it off.
Sitting in my garage covered with a tarp. 4 weeks?


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 9, 2017)

I have no put my no till sip togeather..

 
Reservoir filled growstones 
 
 
The mix is 4:1 parts of growstones size 2 / the medium..
 
GROkashi to get Mycelium going.. 
 
My food left.. Redd Wiggler food right.. Oh yeah I have those too.. and barely straw at the top..


----------



## hyroot (Nov 9, 2017)

Lightgreen2k said:


> I have no put my no till sip togeather..
> 
> View attachment 4040407
> Reservoir filled growstones
> ...



Are you going to cook the soil in the bed. You should add veggies to the worm bin not your pots. It can end up being too hot and attract other pests into your pot / bed.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 9, 2017)

@DonTesla use both neem and karanja oil and alternate. You have to switch up foliars for ipm for them to work. For the cake / meal, build a soil sells a mixed bag of neem cake and karanja cake.

When buying neem oil or cake make sure it's Ahimsa Indian Neem. Not that watered down crap like einstein or dyna gro. The down to earth brand neem seed meal isn't organic. It's sourced from farms in China with low to no quality standards.


For my ipm I spray every other day. neem, citrus ferment, labs, karanja, essential oils, repeat.

Predator insects are good too


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 9, 2017)

hyroot said:


> I was going to make a tutorial video but experimenting withh othe recipes first. Here is the recipe I started with.
> 
> citrus ferment recipe
> 
> ...


Wow....i just saw some of your flowers on IG. Well done!! I just started incorporating more rock dusts in my soil mixes, specifically basalt and GRD. The change is really exciting.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 10, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Are you going to cook the soil in the bed. You should add veggies to the worm bin not your pots. It can end up being too hot and attract other pests into your pot / bed.


When speaking to Mountain organics He said I had it right on point. Add a few patatoe skins / carrots skins through the mix so your worms could have food.

 
Booooooom

I mean do you disagree with Mountain Organics. I'm doing the same process?


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 10, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Are you going to cook the soil in the bed. You should add veggies to the worm bin not your pots. It can end up being too hot and attract other pests into your pot / bed.



I have a few VEGAN / goodies mixed in...



And not FILLERS HA.


----------



## RandomHero8913 (Nov 10, 2017)

Why not just buy those ingredients in bulk for less than the cost of that jar?


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 10, 2017)

That Tea Lab bubbler rocks!!


----------



## hyroot (Nov 10, 2017)

Lightgreen2k said:


> When speaking to Mountain organics He said I had it right on point. Add a few patatoe skins / carrots skins through the mix so your worms could have food.
> 
> View attachment 4040965 View attachment 4040964
> Booooooom
> ...


He's talking about cover crops, neem and kelp to feed the worms with not carrots and potatoe skins. Potatoe skins have too much starch to feed the worms


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 10, 2017)

hyroot said:


> He's talking about cover crops, neem and kelp to feed the worms with not carrots and potatoe skins. Potatoe skins have too much starch to feed the worms


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 10, 2017)

@hyroot i can show you the kelp to if you like.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 11, 2017)

hyroot said:


> @DonTesla use both neem and karanja oil and alternate. You have to switch up foliars for ipm for them to work. For the cake / meal, build a soil sells a mixed bag of neem cake and karanja cake.
> 
> When buying neem oil or cake make sure it's Ahimsa Indian Neem. Not that watered down crap like einstein or dyna gro. The down to earth brand neem seed meal isn't organic. It's sourced from farms in China with low to no quality standards.
> 
> ...


@hyroot,

right on, man. yeah, I was aware of the importance of sourcing from India, and going vegan / organic, but are you saying there can be bad organic neem from India, or what does ahimsa mean to you if you dont mind me clarifying. In other words, why is it more important to get Ahimsa vs organic cold pressed virgin, for example. 

(If you happen to know of a large reputable importer out of India that would be the bees knees, I cannot get from BAS up here and we need to start bringing in much higher bulk amounts that are just as high quality for the compost operation)

I like the ipm regime, though, definitely best to switch it up, ya man, agreed. You spray neem and such during full on flower and all, or stop at 2 weeks in or so and switch to bio predators?

speaking of which I'm a fan of 'em as well.. although some go into diapause during flower, so one just has to pick and choose the right type based on whether one is in veg or flower, or running high or low humidity.

that said, what are your thoughts on insect frass, you ever try any and compare a few kinds by chance?

Thanks for the replies..
Have a good weekend, dude


----------



## RandomHero8913 (Nov 11, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> @hyroot,
> 
> right on, man. yeah, I was aware of the importance of sourcing from India, and going vegan / organic, but are you saying there can be bad organic neem from India, or what does ahimsa mean to you if you dont mind me clarifying. In other words, why is it more important to get Ahimsa vs organic cold pressed virgin, for example.
> 
> ...


There can be bad Organic anything. Ahimsa has been a reputable resource for sometime now.
Chat it up with the neem lady and see if she can help you out.

Contact: Usha Rao
The Ahimsa Alternative, Inc.
Bloomington, MN 55437
952-943-9449 Tel
877-873-6336 Toll Free
866-211-5460 Toll Free Fax
[email protected]


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 11, 2017)

RandomHero8913 said:


> There can be bad Organic anything. Ahimsa has been a reputable resource for sometime now.
> Chat it up with the neem lady and see if she can help you out.
> 
> Contact: Usha Rao
> ...


Thank you RH, right on, man. Will do!


----------



## OrganicGorilla (Nov 12, 2017)

Hey @hyroot. I’m currently growing in organic amended soil and I’m interested in trying out No Till my next round with it. What if anything do I top dress with and how much for 5 Gallon pots?

Here’s a list of what I currently have in my soil and what I have available to reamend with :
Fish Meal, Crab Meal, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Neem Seed Meal, Oyster Shell Flour, Langbeinite, Insect Frass, Nitrogen Bat Guano, Seabird Guano, Glacial Rock Dust, Garden Gypsum, Rock Phosphate, Biochar and EWC

Thanks for any info


----------



## hyroot (Nov 13, 2017)

GrowGorilla said:


> Hey @hyroot. I’m currently growing in organic amended soil and I’m interested in trying out No Till my next round with it. What if anything do I top dress with and how much for 5 Gallon pots?
> 
> Here’s a list of what I currently have in my soil and what I have available to reamend with :
> Fish Meal, Crab Meal, Kelp Meal, Alfalfa Meal, Neem Seed Meal, Oyster Shell Flour, Langbeinite, Insect Frass, Nitrogen Bat Guano, Seabird Guano, Glacial Rock Dust, Garden Gypsum, Rock Phosphate, Biochar and EWC
> ...


Thats a quite a bit of overkill. You dont need the guano, alfalfa and fish meal with everything else thats in there.

Just top dress some castings and replant in the pots. Add some worms to your pots too.

Fyi eventually you should up your pot size. No till works best with large pots. 15 gal minimum unless you're running sips then you can get away with less soil.


----------



## OrganicGorilla (Nov 13, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Thats a quite a bit of overkill. You dont need the guano, alfalfa and fish meal with everything else thats in there.
> 
> Just top dress some castings and replant in the pots. Add some worms to your pots too.
> 
> Fyi eventually you should up your pot size. No till works best with large pots. 15 gal minimum unless you're running sips then you can get away with less soil.


Will a No Till still work without cover crops? Not really wanting to plant cover crops.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 13, 2017)

GrowGorilla said:


> Will a No Till still work without cover crops? Not really wanting to plant cover crops.


Cover / companion crops are not necessary. You can just cover with mulch. Leaves, wood chips, rice hulls, or barley straw 

Cover/ companion crops do provide nitrogen fixation and attract bacteria and fungi via root exudates. Even mycos from the air.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 13, 2017)

hyroot said:


> My
> 
> Pot size 15 gallons minimum. 25 is better. If you run octo pot style sips you can get away with 10 gal pots


What do you mean Octo pot style?


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 13, 2017)

hyroot said:


> He's talking about cover crops, neem and kelp to feed the worms with not carrots and potatoe skins. Potatoe skins have too much starch to feed the worms


Worms will eat potato skins, it just takes longer for them to decompose into a form that is digestible.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 14, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Worms will eat potato skins, it just takes longer for them to decompose into a form that is digestible.


Worms usually shy away from potato skins. Potato skins also attract unwanted pests.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 14, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> What do you mean Octo pot style?



https://www.octopot.com/hydroponic-systems-hybrid/


Diy


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 14, 2017)

hyroot said:


> https://www.octopot.com/hydroponic-systems-hybrid/
> 
> 
> Diy
> ...


Those roots don't look happy.


----------



## DonBrennon (Nov 14, 2017)

Couple of questions for ya, if ya don't mind Mr 'Root...........

a. How do you apply your ferments with the sips? Are you adding them to the res' or top watering them?


b. I've got a lacto culture that's been sat in it's brewing vessel for about 4 months(Totally forgot about the fecker). Everything still looks as it should, ie separate liquid and curds, and it doesn't look to be contaminated in any way. What do ya reckon? down the pan? or save the liquid and feed the curd to the worms?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 14, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Those roots don't look happy.



Labs and runoff stain that color on the roots. That plant was already chopped down a couple days before taking that pic. I also let the resi empty before chopping.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 14, 2017)

DonBrennon said:


> Couple of questions for ya, if ya don't mind Mr 'Root...........
> 
> a. How do you apply your ferments with the sips? Are you adding them to the res' or top watering them?
> 
> ...



I add a splash of labs and flower power in the resi once a week or when I refill the resi. Then I top feed flower power once a week and top feed labs once every 10 days.

I would dump the 4 month curd. The whey probably went bad. Start over. It only takes 2 weeks to separate


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 14, 2017)

Here's my big problem Im already using living organics but I reamend my soil every time, most my girls are in between 3 and 7 gal smart pots. I want to do a no till just for 2 mothers. But I may only be able to do them in 10g at most. Can I make it work in 10s


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 14, 2017)

And also is this considered hydro or soil I'm very confused with this technique. I see the plant sits in soil but also has a res. Do you ever top water, do you have worms in your pot? Sorry about all the questions I just read some really great info in this thread. And now I'm intrigued to learn more about how you guys do this


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 14, 2017)

RandomHero8913 said:


> There can be bad Organic anything. Ahimsa has been a reputable resource for sometime now.
> Chat it up with the neem lady and see if she can help you out.
> 
> Contact: Usha Rao
> ...


Shipping is always the killer.


----------



## Fastslappy (Nov 15, 2017)

Tyleb173rd said:


> Shipping is always the killer.


Build a soil u get killed shipping anything that is in a large bag
I look local feed stores as they have alot what build a soil shipS
malted barley, malted corn get that at the home brewery store they now have malted whole grain rice now too
Sproutin grains ..feed store get whole grain , u might have to screen it but at $14 in a 50 lb bag


----------



## keepsake (Nov 15, 2017)

I mulch with straw and now have gnat problem.
I've released 4,000 hypoaspis miles into my 15gal pot but it's not working.
What else can I do?


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 15, 2017)

First Plant is •Lemon Dawg 《Lemon Tree x Chem4IBL》
Second Plant Double Dough
SourDouble x <FPOGxOgkb>
Amongst many others..
SipLife


----------



## hyroot (Nov 15, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Here's my big problem Im already using living organics but I reamend my soil every time, most my girls are in between 3 and 7 gal smart pots. I want to do a no till just for 2 mothers. But I may only be able to do them in 10g at most. Can I make it work in 10s


10 gal is fine for mothers




Greenthumbs256 said:


> And also is this considered hydro or soil I'm very confused with this technique. I see the plant sits in soil but also has a res. Do you ever top water, do you have worms in your pot? Sorry about all the questions I just read some really great info in this thread. And now I'm intrigued to learn more about how you guys do this


Sips mimic nature. The resi and wicking pot or medium acts as the water table below the ground surface wicking water up through soil to trees and plants in the wild.

 


Yes i have worms in my pots and i top water when the top layer dries a bit. But i water just enough to wet the top layer.

I add a splash of labs and flower power to the resi. Top feed every 4 -5 days. Each time alternate water, labs, flower power. Sometimes swap plain water for sst. If i don't have any malted barley seed to top dress.

For veg i just top homemade castings
Occasional alfalfa / kelp tea.


----------



## Lightgreen2k (Nov 16, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> And also is this considered hydro or soil I'm very confused with this technique. I see the plant sits in soil but also has a res. Do you ever top water, do you have worms in your pot? Sorry about all the questions I just read some really great info in this thread. And now I'm intrigued to learn more about how you guys do this


Umm there is a thread called the sub irrigated planters thread. It is detailed and has many sip designs


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 17, 2017)

hyroot said:


> 10 gal is fine for mothers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So does the chems that you put in the res not affect your organic soil?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 17, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> So does the chems that you put in the res not affect your organic soil?


I don't use any chems at all. Re read my last post. I add a splash of 2 different ferments to the resi. Labs - lactic acid bacteria / lactobacillus and flower power - lacto based ferment (fermented fruits)


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 17, 2017)

O


hyroot said:


> I don't use any chems at all. Re read my last post. I add a splash of 2 different ferments to the resi. Labs - lactic acid bacteria / lactobacillus and flower power - lacto based ferment (fermented fruits)


K thanks I thought those were chems my fault I'm going to research them and find out what they are and use for, thanks you. Today I potted my soil for my mother plants been busting ass all day but everything looks beautiful just gotta wait for the cover crop to grow in and I still have to purchase worms to go in the pots!


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 17, 2017)

This will be my first no till ever plan to have 2 mothers in no till and pull clones veg a few weeks then Trans into 5g smart pots and flower! I'm still confused tho about Re planting in the no till. I know each mother will live at least 6 months to a year in the veg room eventually I'm going to have to flower them. But when u do and chop them down there should a few inch round stalk should I cut it out and root ball too or add bokashi maybe and let it eat away? I'd like to have a fast as possible turn around on those no till. But don't want to disturbe everything ice worked so hard to make. But I also don't wanna let the pot sit for 2 months just for the stem to rot and dissapear! Plz help me with this lol.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 17, 2017)

heres my recipie i also have koasgi in there
Also is it nessesary to have a barley mulch or something if I'm growing in living cover crop?


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 17, 2017)

Are things that grew underground generally bad for worm bins? (potatoes, carrots, onions, radishes, etc) 

We briefly discussed potatoes & carrots but I'm wondering if it's a broader trend.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2017)

keepsake said:


> I mulch with straw and now have gnat problem.
> I've released 4,000 hypoaspis miles into my 15gal pot but it's not working.
> What else can I do?


Some of my tips for* fighting fungus gnats:*

can use _Diatomaceous Earth Rocks _i.e._ diatomite_ to create a 2" sharp, life-cycle barrier.
can also use thick_ slices of potato_ to lure the babies, then discard as they gather.  (Be sure to use at least one inch thick slices, if too thin they will dry fast and then the larvae won't stay confident in it as a grounds for growing up)
can dry the top a bit then reinoculate with bacteria dominated tea.
can mist herb waters they don't like.
can set yellow sticky traps (even DIY ones work, they also like blue)
can use Rove Beetles (aka _Dolotia Coriaria_) 
can use NEMS (Latin: _Steinernema feltia)_
can plant organic garlic cloves 
Roots of French Marigolds are toxic to bad nematodes and many larvae
Pyrethrum companion plants may also aid
 @keepsake, et al.

Cheers,
-Don


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 17, 2017)

I got a good deal on a giant bag of "Gnat Nix" and will be giving it a try soon. 
Reviews on Amazon are mixed. 
It's made by the folks who make Growstone so it probably retains some water and also raises PH a tad (calcium carbonate). 
I bet it's no better than other things that smother the soil -- sand, perlite, pea gravel, non-clumping kitty litter, etc. 
But the price was right, so why not? I'm a sucker for a good deal...


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 17, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> Some of my tips for* fighting fungus gnats:*
> 
> can use _Diatomaceous Earth Rocks _i.e._ diatomite_ to create a 2" sharp, life-cycle barrier.
> can also use thick_ slices of potato_ to lure the babies, then discard as they gather.  (Be sure to use at least one inch thick slices, if too thin they will dry fast and then the larvae won't stay confident in it as a grounds for growing up)
> ...


I forgot to mention another tip for fungus gnats: lots of airflow, 24/7.
The little fuckers can't fly worth a shit so good airflow will keep them grounded. Only peel one side of yellow sticky pads then put them on top of your soil & on the floor. When they aren't sticky anymore, peel the other side & flip em. Moisture isn't a problem.
Another option is DE, but it doesn't work unless it stays dry.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 17, 2017)

Top dressing quality worm castings or non manure compost works on gnats. They will be gone within a week


----------



## hyroot (Nov 17, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> View attachment 4044669 heres my recipie i also have koasgi in there
> Also is it nessesary to have a barley mulch or something if I'm growing in living cover crop?


cover crops are a living mulch.

thats a bit of over kill in your mix. 

you don't need nth gypsum and oyster shell flour. They do the same thing so choose one.

Dolomite lime takes up to 2 years to break down so that's useless. Take that out

Diatomaceous earth just clumps up and clogs soil when it gets wet. Take that out.

you don't need blood meal, bone meal, soft rock phophate and guanos with fish bone meal. You could just use crab shell meal or shrimp shell meal or both instead of all those.

If you already mixed your soil. make sure you cook it for 2 months minimum. 3 months would be better. Layer it like super soil


----------



## hyroot (Nov 17, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Are things that grew underground generally bad for worm bins? (potatoes, carrots, onions, radishes, etc)
> 
> We briefly discussed potatoes & carrots but I'm wondering if it's a broader trend.



I think carrots are fine. Onions, and radishes probably not


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 17, 2017)

hyroot said:


> cover crops are a living mulch.
> 
> thats a bit of over kill in your mix.
> 
> ...


Some of that stuff I haven't read added like dolomite lime haven't used it in a year my soil is 2 years old that's just what I have used in the past. And I will keep that in mind for my next run when I reamend the 3 and 5g pots. And my soul did cook for a good month n half already I've potted it but no plants in the pots for a few more weeks. Would u recommend to top dress with bokashi?


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## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> I forgot to mention another tip for fungus gnats: airflow...
> Another option is DE, but it doesn't work unless it stays dry.


I wasn't talking about DE _powder_, though, guys. DE _Rocks_ will scrape their soft bodied exoskeletons away and eat away at them from the outside in, and if applied thick enough can halt a lot of reproductive cycles of various pests. Every time they're wetted they release some good traces too.

As for topdressing castings, thats a good approach too, but if already at the ideal amount in a mix (15-20% for us) then we dont like to add any extra if it can be helped. Also don't like to add once in flower, ourselves anyway, for suuuuuuuper smooth smoke is a big priority and fav for us, with the minimal amount of animal products needed to get there being the goal.

Just something to consider.
@Greenthumbs256


----------



## hyroot (Nov 17, 2017)

*LABS:*

Step 1: Rice Wash


1 Cup of Rice

1 Cup of Clean Chlorine-free water

1 Pint Jar w lid

1 Coffee Filter



Place Water and Rice in Jar.
Secure lid on Jar
Shake Jar for 5 minutes
Strain out the rice and keep the white water
Place 1 coffee filter on top of jar and secure the band without the lid so it can breath.
Place Jar (on top of your fridge) at room temperature.
Wait 1 week for bacteria from the air to fall into your jar.
Make 2 just in case you get contaminated.
After 1 week strain Rice wash through a strainer and place the lid on securely.
Your Rice wash is now full of microbes and ready for step 2 (Lab













Step 2: LABS (Lactic Acid Bacteria Serum)


1 Part Rice Wash (1 cup)

10 Parts Milk (½ Gallon)

1 Gallon Glass Jug (Apple Juice Jug)

3 Coffee Filters

1 Rubber band



Place rice wash and milk in the jug
Give it a swirl/mix.
Cut the 3 coffee Filters in half and now you got 6 halves.
Place the filters on top of the jug and secure with a rubber band.
Place the Jug on top of the fridge.
Wait 1 week for the Separation to occur of the Lactic Acid Bacteria Serum.
After 1 week Strain and Separate the Serum from the Curd (Cheese).
The Yellow Liquid is called Lactic Acid Bacteria Serum (LABS)
The Cheese can be used as a top dressing for your Flowering Plants Soil.
Proceed to Step 3.





























Step 3: AEM1 (Activated Essential Micro Organisms)

1 Part LABS (1 Quart)

1 Part Molasses (1 Quart)

20 Parts Non-Chlorine Water

1 5 Gallon Carboy Glass Jug

1 Air Lock

1 Stopper


Place Water, Molasses and Labs in the 5 Gallon Jug or Bucket.
Mix
Secure Tight the Air Lock and Stopper on Jug .
Don’t Forget to add water to the Air Lock.
Place the Jug back in the box it came in.
Place Box in the Flowering room for 3 weeks to diffuse CO2 Gas to the plants.
After brewing for 3 weeks test the Ph to be 3.5 Ph.
After testing make sure there is no more pressure produced from the brew.
Pour solution in Jars and secure the lid tight.
Store Jars at room Temperature for 3 Months Max.
Feed Plants from all stages at a rate of 1 Pint of Activated Essential Micro Organisms x 5 Gallons of clean water.

























Step 4: Flower Power


1 Quart of Activated LABS

4.5 Gallons of Non-Chlorine Water

1 5 Gallon Bucket

Organic Matter (Flowers,Fruits,Vegetables,Coconuts,Bugs,Pumpkins,Bananas)

No MEAT

No Citrus



Place All your Organic Matter in the bucket and add water with LABS.
Mix
Cover bucket
Let it sit outside when the weather is 40+ degrees.
After 3 weeks of Fermenting it should have a White Layer on top of the water.
Mix
Let it sit another week to ferment further.
Now its been 1 mth go ahead and take out 1 Quart of solution and replace with 1 Quart of clean Non-Chlorine Water.
Go Ahead and Add the 1 Quart Solution of Flower Power to 5 Gallons of Clean Water.
Test your PPM
Week 1 =100 PPM Week 8 = 800 PPM
No Need to Test PH
Don’t foliar feed with this solution.
Feed All Flowering Plant
*Green Plants and Green Veggies - Veg
Red, Yellow, and Orange Fruits - Flower*


----------



## keepsake (Nov 17, 2017)

1 qt of AEM
4.5 gals of water

How much in weight of greens for veg power juice?
How much in weight of flowers and fruits for bloom power juice?


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 17, 2017)

Sorry about blowing up your thread but im really interested in doing this this right the first time! I'm still confused tho about Re planting in the no till. I know each mother will live at least 6 months to a year in the veg room eventually I'm going to have to flower them. But when u do flower and chop them down there should a few inch round stalk, should I cut it out and root ball or add bokashi maybe and let it eat away? I'd like to have a fast as possible turn around on those no till. But don't want to disturbe everything ive worked so hard to make. But I also don't wanna let the pot sit for 2 months just for the stem to rot and dissappear! Plz help me with this lol.


----------



## keepsake (Nov 17, 2017)

Just plant seed


Greenthumbs256 said:


> Sorry about blowing up your thread but im really interested in doing this this right the first time! I'm still confused tho about Re planting in the no till. I know each mother will live at least 6 months to a year in the veg room eventually I'm going to have to flower them. But when u do flower and chop them down there should a few inch round stalk, should I cut it out and root ball or add bokashi maybe and let it eat away? I'd like to have a fast as possible turn around on those no till. But don't want to disturbe everything ive worked so hard to make. But I also don't wanna let the pot sit for 2 months just for the stem to rot and dissappear! Plz help me with this lol.


Just plant a seed right next to the rootball. The new roots will grow and weave thru whatever.


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 17, 2017)

I did the rice wash but no film formed on top. There’s a few mold spots......is that what I’m looking for? It’s been 10 days.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 17, 2017)

And what's your guys take on bokashi, I'm worried about using it as a top dress with my cover crop, the white fungas just scares me even tho I've been told it's great lol.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Sorry about blowing up your thread but im really interested in doing this this right the first time! I'm still confused tho about Re planting in the no till. I know each mother will live at least 6 months to a year in the veg room eventually I'm going to have to flower them. But when u do flower and chop them down there should a few inch round stalk, should I cut it out and root ball or add bokashi maybe and let it eat away? I'd like to have a fast as possible turn around on those no till. But don't want to disturbe everything ive worked so hard to make. But I also don't wanna let the pot sit for 2 months just for the stem to rot and dissappear! Plz help me with this lol.


I believe Hy already covered this in here, but, just plant next to the stem, and leave roots (microbe homes) in tact.. the roots can stay and add to soil texture / food web, and the stems will be free to remove with ease, in a couple weeks or so, by plucking them out. Read the whole thread, too, if you can, its nice and short and quite informative / useful.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 17, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> I wasn't talking about DE _powder_, though, guys. DE _Rocks_ will scrape their soft bodied exoskeletons away and eat away at them from the outside in, and if applied thick enough can halt a lot of reproductive cycles of various pests. Every time they're wetted they release some good traces too.
> 
> As for topdressing castings, thats a good approach too, but if already at the ideal amount in a mix (15-20% for us) then we dont like to add any extra if it can be helped. Also don't like to add once in flower, ourselves anyway, for suuuuuuuper smooth smoke is a big priority and fav for us, with the minimal amount of animal products needed to get there being the goal.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about the oil absorber that NAPA sells? Very similar to calcined clay kitty litter. 
Worm castings contain chitinase, so top dressing with castings + a source of chitin like crab meal, will really do a number on gnats.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Are you talking about the oil absorber that NAPA sells? Very similar to calcined clay kitty litter.
> Worm castings contain chitinase, so top dressing with castings + a source of chitin like crab meal, will really do a number on gnats.


Crab meal is alright too. Happy rocks is another name for the DE though, & they are sold in quality gardening stores. 

Diatomite refers to the light-colored sedimentary rock that is composed of the remains of one-celled algae known as diatoms. Diatomite is highly siliceous, has a low specific gravity, and it's very porous.
Once crushed its usually called diatomaceous earth.

There are many uses for food grade diatomaceous earth. It can nourish hair, skin and nails, rid your pets and home of critters, and keep your garden healthy.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 17, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> Crab meal is alright too. Happy rocks is another name for the DE though, & they are sold in quality gardening stores.
> 
> Diatomite refers to the light-colored sedimentary rock that is composed of the remains of one-celled algae known as diatoms. Diatomite is highly siliceous, has a low specific gravity, and it's very porous.
> Once crushed its usually called diatomaceous earth.
> ...


Make sure you get food grade DE.


----------



## DonTesla (Nov 17, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Make sure you get food grade DE.


Thanks for the advice dude, but we already have a world class source, at least for small and medium amounts any way. We have several quality sources avail in stores up here, surprisingly, or some of the better stores anyway. Anyone can get their local store to start carrying better stuff if they ask, too, which is really cool.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Nov 17, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> Thanks for the advice dude, but we already have a world class source, at least for small and medium amounts any way. We have several quality sources avail in stores up here, surprisingly, or some of the better stores anyway. Anyone can get their local store to start carrying better stuff if they ask, too, which is really cool.


Yeah you mentioned it but I wanted to say it again because some of the cheap stuff at the co-op is contaminated.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 18, 2017)

keepsake said:


> 1 qt of AEM
> 4.5 gals of water
> 
> How much in weight of greens for veg power juice?
> How much in weight of flowers and fruits for bloom power juice?


I fill up a 5 gallon bucket 1/3 of the way with organic material. Then add the aem and the rest water.

The more material you add the higher the ppm's will be for the most part.

You can run it continuous too. After a month you can take a gallon out every week and replace it water until everything has broken down. Or strain and add the left overs to the next ferment

I pretty much make bokashi, labs and flower power and thats it. Occasionally I make the citrus ferment (pest foliar). That lasts me a long time.

My fav is equal amounts pumpkin, apples, banana, and Jamaican papaya, For flower

I've used tomatoes, watermelon, mangos, and eggplants, etc....

Heres the fav


At 4 weeks. It smells really good. Like sweet passion fruit.



For veg my worm castings are enough.





Alpine Sap - benevolence x gorilla glue 4
bred by me.



Crémeberry - benevolence × blackberry cream ( greengenes cut ).

Bred by me too


I'm after lots of large trichome heads and bringing back old school kush flavors.

I'm a hash head

Gg4 icewax that I made.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 18, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> View attachment 4044735 And what's your guys take on bokashi, I'm worried about using it as a top dress with my cover crop, the white fungas just scares me even tho I've been told it's great lol.


I topdress bokashi (imo) every 2 weeks in veg and flower. Once the mycelium mat develops. I topdress castings or compost

 


1 part imo / 1 part carbon.

Yes its a good thing. It provides bacteria and fungi and minerasl.Breaks down compost faster and speeds up soil cooking time. Improves vigor and yield.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 18, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Sorry about blowing up your thread but im really interested in doing this this right the first time! I'm still confused tho about Re planting in the no till. I know each mother will live at least 6 months to a year in the veg room eventually I'm going to have to flower them. But when u do flower and chop them down there should a few inch round stalk, should I cut it out and root ball or add bokashi maybe and let it eat away? I'd like to have a fast as possible turn around on those no till. But don't want to disturbe everything ive worked so hard to make. But I also don't wanna let the pot sit for 2 months just for the stem to rot and dissappear! Plz help me with this lol.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 18, 2017)

Tyleb173rd said:


> I did the rice wash but no film formed on top. There’s a few mold spots......is that what I’m looking for? It’s been 10 days.


What color is the mold? If blue /green or black then throw it out and start over. It got contaminated.

White mold is good. Make sure to cover the rice wash jar with 3 layers of coffee filters and just store in a cupboard or somewhere in the dark thats cool in temp. Not warm.


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 18, 2017)

hyroot said:


> What color is the mold? If blue /green or black then throw it out and start over. It got contaminated.
> 
> White mold is good. Make sure to cover the rice wash jar with 3 layers of coffee filters and just store in a cupboard or somewhere in the dark thats cool in temp. Not warm.


Is this ok?


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 18, 2017)

hyroot said:


> View attachment 4044879


I know you know a lot more than me but I have ocd planting that much too the side will drive me nuts lmfao can I plant much closer to the center?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 18, 2017)

Tyleb173rd said:


> Is this ok?View attachment 4044908


 It's fine. You should be good.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 18, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I know you know a lot more than me but I have ocd planting that much too the side will drive me nuts lmfao can I plant much closer to the center?


Yeah. Where ever is easy to plant without breaking up too much soil.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 18, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Yeah. Where ever is easy to plant without breaking up too much soil.


Have you ever noticed it growing different or smaller planting so close to the side?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 18, 2017)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> Have you ever noticed it growing different or smaller planting so close to the side?


No, the plant has the whole pot for the roots to fill out. It doesn't matter where it's planted. Just like a soil bed.


----------



## keepsake (Nov 20, 2017)

hyroot said:


> I topdress bokashi (imo) every 2 weeks in veg and flower. Once the mycelium mat develops. I topdress castings or compost


Do you mulch on top of the castings or compost that you put over the mycelium mat?

Also:

So I'm coming up on my first harvest ever. This tent has been grown with bottled nutes, my other tents are being grown in organic living soil. I ditched the bottles after 1 grow lol.. my first grow ever.
Anyways, I need some advice on how to chop and hang to dry. Do I just chop each main branch with its entire cola, trim the big non sugar leaves, and hang upside down?
I plan to hang it in the tent it was grown in without the lights on so the temps will be about 68F. Turn on a small fan in there and humidifier to get it up to 60% RH.
How's that sound?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 20, 2017)

keepsake said:


> Do you mulch on top of the castings or compost that you put over the mycelium mat?
> 
> Also:
> 
> ...


Yes I mulch in top.

Chopping - I chop the water leaves then hang. Sometimes i fresh trim too. If I want to make some fresh frozen bubble with the trim. It tales a little longer cure time with fresh trim for the chlorophyll to break down. When I have to chop a whole room and i don't have any help I dry trim. Either way the water leaves come off prior to hanging

I hang for about 5-7 days at 70-75 degrees. Then cure with 72% boveda packs in the jars and only birp jars once a week.

68 is fine. You want lower humidity when drying. 30% or lower. Humidity degrades trichomes while their drying.

60% rh is good for while they're growing if the ambient temp is around 80.

. I would like a dedicated room for drying so I can lower the temp to 40-50 degrees and slow dry for a month.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 23, 2017)

Some probiotic mendo breath f1 that's hanging. This is probably my favorite strain that I have in regular rotatation.




These are 6 and 2 week old heirloom san marzano tomato plants from seed in 5 gal sips outside.



Ripped Bubba


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 23, 2017)

Have any of you guys made your own BioChar? I’ve got yard work tomorrow and it involves wood and burning just not in the same chore. My understanding is I can dig a hole in my outdoor veggie garden, put some dried wood (sticks, pine cones?) in there and fire it up. Once it’s smoked out it’s then covered in soil and drenched in water.

Am I close?


----------



## RandomHero8913 (Nov 24, 2017)

I've seen people make small batches using paint cans and rice hulls, for larger wood products the most common source is buying a bag of hardwood lump charcoal and soaking/smashing.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 24, 2017)

I never tried to make biochar. I have seen videos doing the same method using coffee cans and rice hulls.


Here's some probiotic blackberry cream


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 25, 2017)

hyroot said:


> *LABS:*
> 
> Step 1: Rice Wash
> 
> ...


My LAB serum separated but the curds sank. Is that acceptable?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 25, 2017)

Tyleb173rd said:


> My LAB serum separated but the curds sank. Is that acceptable?


The curds should float. Strain the curds out. 

I use a laundry bag in a bucket for delicates to strain my ferments. You can get a 2 bag pack at walmart for $4.


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Nov 25, 2017)

Perhaps it sank from agitation?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 26, 2017)

Tyleb173rd said:


> Perhaps it sank from agitation?


Probably. You don't want to agitate it. Just strain it.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 26, 2017)

Mendo breath f1


----------



## hyroot (Nov 27, 2017)

Blackberry cream flower rosin. The first pic is rosin that I pressed out last night. The 2nd pic is the same rosin 18 hours later after it auto buddered. No taffy tech. Just low temp low pressure


----------



## ANC (Nov 27, 2017)

So, how do you guys feel about running clones indoors in soil.
My experience with soil is that it is very slow, but great for growing long season plants outdoors.

My partner seems to have his mind set on soil, I wanted to try Rockwool blocks on batting with timed NTF running down the batting (where most of the root mass is).
The trays are to be covered with panda film, with small holes the stems poke through. Over this goes bubble wrap (to prevent conductive warming from the foil) and then an outer foil or mylar layer.

Pipes are to be thermally wrapped to help prevent picking up heat from the lights.

I have less airconditioning than lights available too. Would rather scale down the grow to fit with our cooling capacity, he seems to want to run wall to wall again.
We are headed for the crazy hot time of the year again. My instinct is it would be easier to control root temps, with an outboard reservoir and maybe chiller than leaving bags of soil to the mercy of the heat.

I love soil as much as the next guy, but I have a feeling it is not a good fit for the size of our op (80 to 90 plants in flower).

What do you guys think?


----------



## hyroot (Dec 3, 2017)

ANC said:


> So, how do you guys feel about running clones indoors in soil.
> My experience with soil is that it is very slow, but great for growing long season plants outdoors.
> 
> My partner seems to have his mind set on soil, I wanted to try Rockwool blocks on batting with timed NTF running down the batting (where most of the root mass is).
> ...



Living soil all day if you want the best quality. Theres plenty of large facilities running no till... Most that run hydro are producing mids like jungle boys. I've been running no till living soil indoor for the past 7 or 8 years and ferments for the past few years. I ran hydro for 8 years before switching to soil. I ran bottled nutes in soil before running no till. Once you've ran living soil. You will never go back... The quality and flavor is a world of difference. Especially if you use ferments.

For faster growth you can run sub irrigated planters with living soil. Soil sits above a resi. And water wicks up into the soil from the bottom up. Like in nature. Where trees pull water from the water table below the ground surface


Look up brownguy420 on you tube. He runs a recreational op in oregon and runs all no till. Also Patrick King aka Soil king runs all no till in his commercial op. Seed to Soul Farms runs all no till in their commercial op too. Resin Ranch does all korean and jadam natural farming on their commercial op too.
These guys are running 500 to 5,000 plants. 80 -90 plants isn't a huge op. Half will be in flower and half will be vegging. Most small ops have at least 50 plants total.

Hydro is a lot more work than soil too and hydro uses a lot more water.

The only hydro that I approve of is. Aquaponics. You can great results with aquaponics. Its a closed loop system that recycles water and uses a fish tank and plants get fed by fish poop and rock dusts. They're pretty expensive to set up though.


----------



## ANC (Dec 3, 2017)

YeaYeah I have been doing a bit of reading, avoiding the usual cannabis sites and rather looking for agricultural production information.

We settled on another coco run. outdoors I prefer soil any day, the taste is the best.
The big boys must laugh at us, they spend $200 per acre on ferts.


----------



## Tyleb173rd (Dec 3, 2017)

I’d be interested in some no till SIPs for a perpetual grow.


----------



## hyroot (Dec 3, 2017)

ANC said:


> YeaYeah I have been doing a bit of reading, avoiding the usual cannabis sites and rather looking for agricultural production information.
> 
> We settled on another coco run. outdoors I prefer soil any day, the taste is the best.
> The big boys must laugh at us, they spend $200 per acre on ferts.


Watch The Rancher, The Farmer, The Fisherman. Its a John Hoffman documentary thats Narrated by Tom Brokaw. Might be on demand or on kodi or netflix. Anyway they show wheat farmers in Kansas, North Dakota and another state I can't think of. They all had switched to no till in recent years. Their farms are better than they have ever been. Yields, quality, health of the soil / microbial life had all improved. They stopped using pesticides. They saved tons of money too.

The Rancher and fisherman parts are cool too.


----------



## hyroot (Dec 3, 2017)

Tyleb173rd said:


> I’d be interested in some no till SIPs for a perpetual grow.


I've been running various designs of sips for a couple years now. All no till. Coots mix adjusted and ferments. They do great.

Ima build some soma sip beds out of 30 gal totes here soon

I have some soma style 5 gal sips that rock right now.

Alpine sap



Bermuda kush



Crémeberry


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 3, 2017)

natureboygrower said:


> ive been using coots mix for couple seasons outside.i have some leftover sitting in my barn(unused) im going to use on my next indoor run.say i mix up a new batch,should i let it sit before use and could you point me in the direction on the ferments you talk of @hyroot ?(planning on reading this whole thread)ive got one of my earthboxes all cleaned and ive dedicated one side of my cab for it.


Just check Post #9, in this thread, NBG

as well as post #30:

_KNF - Korean Natural Farming

Jadam - Revised version of KNF

FFJ - Fermented Fruit Juice ( red yellow, orange fruits, no citrus)
FPJ - Fermented Plant Juice ( 1 type of fermented plants at a time)
FAA - Fish Amino Acids (fermented fish)
FPE - Fermented Plant Extract (fruits or plants using labs and water in ferment)
Labs - Lactic Acid Bacteria / Lactobacillus (fermented milk and rice wash and activated with molasses or brown sugar and water)
IMO - Indiginious Microorganisms - Fermented rice outdoors
Bokashi - IMO - Fermented rice bran or wheat bran with molasses, water, and labs or em1_


----------



## natureboygrower (Dec 3, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> Just check Post #9, in this thread, NBG
> 
> as well as post #30:
> 
> ...


sweet.thank you for that ,Don


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 3, 2017)

natureboygrower said:


> sweet.thank you for that ,Don


Yeah, man, np. 

I would start the labs first, its just so easy, and usable in others.. then while that is fermenting, you can look into another of your choosing.


----------



## natureboygrower (Dec 3, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> Yeah, man, np.
> 
> I would start the labs first, its just so easy, and usable in others.. then while that is fermenting, you can look into another of your choosing.


sounds good.i'll do that.i had a little time and read up to page 4. had my questions answered and appreciate your advice.i'm really interested in this.im on my first indoor grow and not feeling good about the bottled nute program im using.i went completely to the dark side.my first season using coots mix was 2016(outdoors) did great.i did hardly any amending to that soil in '17 and my plants suffered.getting my amendments right for the second run is my biggest concern indoor and out.


----------



## XxTruthxX (Dec 5, 2017)

hello,
I was wondering when it is safe to add my worms, during the cooking process or after? and should i establish my cover crop before transplanting my little ladies?


----------



## Chunky Stool (Dec 5, 2017)

ANC said:


> YeaYeah I have been doing a bit of reading, avoiding the usual cannabis sites and rather looking for agricultural production information.
> 
> We settled on another coco run. outdoors I prefer soil any day, the taste is the best.
> *The big boys must laugh at us, they spend $200 per acre on ferts*.


They buy stuff by the truckload (quantity discount).


----------



## Gumdrawp (Dec 7, 2017)

How much malted barley would you top dress onto a 36" plant going into week 4 of flower before a tea? Should I brew the barley or just top dress and water in with ewc tea?


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## hyroot (Dec 13, 2017)

Gumdrawp said:


> How much malted barley would you top dress onto a 36" plant going into week 4 of flower before a tea? Should I brew the barley or just top dress and water in with ewc tea?



Just a thin layer. Top dressing malted barley is more efficient than an sst. During flower a corn sst would be better than barley. I don't do ewc teas unless the soil dries out.. Personally I'd top dress castings on top of malted barley. But if you are trying to stretch castings then go with the tea. 

Make sure you puree the malted barley.


----------



## Gumdrawp (Dec 13, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Just a thin layer. Top dressing malted barley is more efficient than an sst. During flower a corn sst would be better than barley. I don't do ewc teas unless the soil dries out.. Personally I'd top dress castings on top of malted barley. But if you are trying to stretch castings then go with the tea.
> 
> Make sure you puree the malted barley.


Will do, thanks for the advice. I top dressed and watered with some labs afterwards, the plants are very happy right now. Frostiest I've ever seen them going into week 5.


----------



## Fastslappy (Dec 13, 2017)

Gumdrawp said:


> Will do, thanks for the advice. I top dressed and watered with some labs afterwards, the plants are very happy right now. Frostiest I've ever seen them going into week 5.


Corn SST have a high concentration of enzymes that help break down top-dressing's very fast , I top dress kelp, frass ,neem then SST ever few days ,the topdress disappeared very quickly


----------



## Chunky Stool (Dec 13, 2017)

Is it OK to put organic tofu in my worm bin? 
It expired Nov 23 and I need to get rid of it. 
I've also got some expired cottage cheese but it's probably got too much sodium.


----------



## Fastslappy (Dec 13, 2017)

Chunky Stool said:


> Is it OK to put organic tofu in my worm bin?
> It expired Nov 23 and I need to get rid of it.
> I've also got some expired cottage cheese but it's probably got too much sodium.


Yeah chop it up they love any kind of beans , legumes 
Cottage cheese into compost pile but bury deep


----------



## sethimus (Dec 14, 2017)

@hyroot do you follow a schedule when you apply your teas/lab/fermented stuff?


----------



## Fastslappy (Dec 14, 2017)

sethimus said:


> @hyroot do you follow a schedule when you apply your teas/lab/fermented stuff?


What he said?


----------



## hyroot (Dec 14, 2017)

sethimus said:


> @hyroot do you follow a schedule when you apply your teas/lab/fermented stuff?





Fastslappy said:


> What he said?


Yeah i guess. One watering I'll feed flower power. Next watering I'll feed labs. Next watering I will feed plain water. Every other time on that third watering I swap plain water for an sst.


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## sethimus (Dec 15, 2017)

hyroot said:


> Yeah i guess. One watering I'll feed flower power. Next watering I'll feed labs. Next watering I will feed plain water. Every other time on that third watering I swap plain water for an sst.


so you just feed every week the same? unlike the modern cannabis guy? -> http://themodern.farm/methods/#Schedule


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2017)

sethimus said:


> so you just feed every week the same? unlike the modern cannabis guy? -> http://themodern.farm/methods/#Schedule


I do topdress bokashi and castings every 2 weeks.

Compost tea's, I only use them if the soil has dried out.. I use mainly corn seed for sst in veg and flower. I can get organic corn seed locally cheap. But barley I'd have to order. I prefer buying locally.

With the flower power ferment. I don't need anything else. I don't even need to reamend soil with dry amenments. My homemade castings are enough.


----------



## dubekoms (Dec 16, 2017)

sethimus said:


> so you just feed every week the same? unlike the modern cannabis guy? -> http://themodern.farm/methods/#Schedule


I honestly hate that schedule, many people including myself got into organics to save money and make things easier. That schedule is anything but cheap and easy lol They just want ya to spend all your cash.


----------



## RandomHero8913 (Dec 16, 2017)

sethimus said:


> so you just feed every week the same? unlike the modern cannabis guy? -> http://themodern.farm/methods/#Schedule


Wow, who would do that to themselves?


----------



## Thai_Lights (Dec 20, 2017)

What soil recipe are you guys using for clones in 1 gals? 90% peat and 10% compost?


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 22, 2017)

XxTruthxX said:


> hello,
> I was wondering when it is safe to add my worms, during the cooking process or after? and should i establish my cover crop before transplanting my little ladies?


.. noticed this wasn't answered ?.. 
I would add the *worms* _after_ unless you have plenty to spare, in case your mix is hot. 
In other words, this is recipe-dependant.. but better safe than sorry same time.

Re: the *cover* crop, it is a good way to get endo myco fungi established early, 
potentially allowing you to avoid individual sprinklings later at each transplant, as they need roots to infect (in a good way).. once a main crop is introduced a cover crop becomes a companion crop, with inherent pro's and con's to this latter stage. 



dubekoms said:


> I honestly hate that schedule, many people including myself got into organics to save money and make things easier. That schedule is anything but cheap and easy lol They just want ya to spend all your cash.


You can also do *water* only with amazing results if Hy's regime is too much for you. Make your own compost and the expression may wow you.

& in Hy's defense, he makes all his own stuff for very cheap. Practically no cost, really. Once you have stable *ferments* they can last if stored properly. 
For example, use a small mouth bottle for your labs and it can last nearly forever if it's made right.


----------



## dubekoms (Dec 22, 2017)

DonTesla said:


> .. noticed this wasn't answered ?..
> I would add the *worms* _after_ unless you have plenty to spare, in case your mix is hot.
> In other words, this is recipe-dependant.. but better safe than sorry same time.
> 
> ...


Oh no not hyroot, I meant the modern methods schedule from buildasoil.


----------



## Chunky Stool (Dec 22, 2017)

dubekoms said:


> Oh no not hyroot, I meant the modern methods schedule from buildasoil.


----------



## DonTesla (Dec 22, 2017)

dubekoms said:


> Oh no not hyroot, I meant the modern methods schedule from buildasoil.


Yeah modern is a bit ridiculous, more like mayhem. I agree there 100%.

Even hy does a lot of work, imo, a lot more than me, anyway, with all due respect.. I do hope to try his herb out this year in person if I can make time, to see if its all worth it. One good bong rip and I could tell you a lot. For me, though, I'm constantly looking for the MED principle or Minimum Effective Doses, and MEWL, Minimum Effective Work Load.. to bring out the _most_ amazing results.. without over complicating it. KIS all day. 

How far can we take water only growing, and how little can we do to get immaculate, expressive, terp-rich herb full of potency, color & flavour. The common ground there is what interests me. Interesting stuff for sure!


----------



## BionicΩChronic (Jan 3, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I fill up a 5 gallon bucket 1/3 of the way with organic material. Then add the aem and the rest water.
> 
> The more material you add the higher the ppm's will be for the most part.
> 
> ...


VERY nice ice hash what micron?


----------



## BionicΩChronic (Jan 3, 2018)

hyroot said:


> It's fine. That's the cotyledon. Those almost always yellow early on. When plants yellow over night, that's usually caused by the soil drying out.


He had developed some nice plants but had to start over cause of broad mites. 
What sprays do u use to prevent this and other mites?
Neem? Citrus?
What about bud worms and the accursed bud ROT?
The latter is the biggest issue in my region


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 6, 2018)

@BionicΩChronic 



BionicΩChronic said:


> He had developed some nice plants but had to start over cause of broad mites.
> What sprays do u use to prevent this and other mites?
> Neem? Citrus?
> What about bud worms and the accursed bud ROT?
> The latter is the biggest issue in my region


Bud rot is from lack of soluble calcium, I think, as seen in tomatoes with blossom end rot.
What form(s) of calcium do you use..

And since Hy is away from the desk at the moment..

He endorses a 5 part IPM regime with a different spray every 2nd day as to keep the fuckers shocked and make it harder for them to adapt.

Neem oil
Karanja
Labs
Citrus Ferment etc
then repeat cycle

We talked about it on the first few pages here  Tutorials posted too


----------



## Chunky Stool (Jan 6, 2018)

DonTesla said:


> @BionicΩChronic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nope.
You are referring to tip rot. 
Bud rot is caused by cold & wet conditions -- and it starts on the stem.


----------



## DonTesla (Jan 6, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Nope.
> You are referring to tip rot.
> Bud rot is caused by cold & wet conditions -- and it starts on the stem.


Yep. You got me, I've never had either issue tbh in all my years and I read that pretty quick.. just some friends have, but yeah, you could post an info source to confirm / that'd be champ


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## Chunky Stool (Jan 6, 2018)

DonTesla said:


> Yep. You got me, I've never had either issue tbh in all my years and I read that pretty quick.. just some friends have, but yeah, you could post an info source to confirm / that'd be champ


I don't have an info source, but I lost at least 4 zips to bud rot last year on my outdoor grow. 

Pretty sure I know what it looks like and what causes it...


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## DonTesla (Jan 6, 2018)

moment of silence for the buds... 

..... 

Experience is the best teacher though, so I would say it counts as an info source

I see lots of so called bud rot in the street stuff being sold, even at dispensaries, many of them, sadly.
I just call it mold..bloody spoilage fungus actually botrytis cinerea

You could have still sold it there lol Jk 
Indoors it can be avoided though, so it surprises me so much makes it way to retail


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## CaptainSnap (Jan 18, 2018)

Hello fellow herbalists!
Just started getting into the true organics over a year ago thanks to the leaders in the section!! You guys rock. 

I've been having issues since winter set in with not being able to hold enough water in my 10 gallon pots to be gone 3 days every week and my plants are showing severe yellowing due to them being wilted every time I come back. I really liked the idea of going with bigger containers and going trying my hand at sips style containers. Any of you who built your own with cotton rope wicks? Any tips or suggestions? such as how many wicks you used or how many for a certain gallon pot size?

If you get the chance I posted pictures of the 20 gallon sips containers I built.
http://rollitup.org/t/captains-3600w-perpetual-jungle-living-soil-no-till-sips.957205/


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## ShLUbY (Jan 18, 2018)

CaptainSnap said:


> Hello fellow herbalists!
> Just started getting into the true organics over a year ago thanks to the leaders in the section!! You guys rock.
> 
> I've been having issues since winter set in with not being able to hold enough water in my 10 gallon pots to be gone 3 days every week and my plants are showing severe yellowing due to them being wilted every time I come back. I really liked the idea of going with bigger containers and going trying my hand at sips style containers. Any of you who built your own with cotton rope wicks? Any tips or suggestions? such as how many wicks you used or how many for a certain gallon pot size?
> ...


there are a couple possible solutions.

you could get one of those large, deep "runoff trays" you know the 4x4 and 4x8 ones that are like 8 inches deep... and then install a float valve on it so that when it goes below a certain level, it will trip the water back on and refill it. basically you'd be building a passive hydro table, which seems awesome to me! it may require you to prop your plants up slightly, but it would definitely do the trick.

also, you could go the blumat route, if you are not attached to having SIP garden, and they do a pretty damn good job. sometimes they can be finicky, but the same thing can apply. you can get a reservoir, install a float valve, and then not have to worry about leaving for several days!


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## RandomHero8913 (Jan 18, 2018)

I’ll second the blumat option. Once they are setup life becomes so much easier. They’ll be at the moisture level you set them at for the rest of the grow and you’ll be surprised at how little work needs to done.


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## ShLUbY (Jan 18, 2018)

RandomHero8913 said:


> I’ll second the blumat option. Once they are setup life becomes so much easier. They’ll be at the moisture level you set them at for the rest of the grow and you’ll be surprised at how little work needs to done.


literally don't know what i would do without them....

in veg with my smaller pots (1 gal and less) i have been experimenting recently with some "psuedoSIPs". i just put about 1-1.5" of pumice at the bottom of the pot, and then soil above that. then i put the plants on a drip tray and just put water in the tray and let the pumice wick it up to the soil. it's been working great so far as i can tell... only about 10 days in so far but having no worries about dry soil as far as i can tell. pots have nice weight to them whenever i check once the tray dries out.


----------



## dubekoms (Jan 19, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> literally don't know what i would do without them....
> 
> in veg with my smaller pots (1 gal and less) i have been experimenting recently with some "psuedoSIPs". i just put about 1-1.5" of pumice at the bottom of the pot, and then soil above that. then i put the plants on a drip tray and just put water in the tray and let the pumice wick it up to the soil. it's been working great so far as i can tell... only about 10 days in so far but having no worries about dry soil as far as i can tell. pots have nice weight to them whenever i check once the tray dries out.


Sounds kind of like the swick method. I think you use fabric pots and put them over a container of perlite. Fill the container with water until its 2 inches below the fabric pot. Sounds a lot easier than cutting holes and what not for net pots in sips. If its working well for you I might give it a shot, my only worry is it might get overwatered? Maybe letting the roots fill out the pot first would be a good option before putting it on the perlite.


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 19, 2018)

dubekoms said:


> Sounds kind of like the swick method. I think you use fabric pots and put them over a container of perlite. Fill the container with water until its 2 inches below the fabric pot. Sounds a lot easier than cutting holes and what not for net pots in sips. If its working well for you I might give it a shot, my only worry is it might get overwatered? Maybe letting the roots fill out the pot first would be a good option before putting it on the perlite.


the pumice is in the pot itself. so no soil medium actually sits in the water at all. the pumice is what sits in the water, and naturally wicks water up to the soil. so far i have not experienced any signs of over-saturation (i've lifted the containers to make sure they didn't have too much weight to them) I'll take some pics when i get back home today and put them in my thread. hopefully, they will still be looking good


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## dubekoms (Jan 19, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> the pumice is in the pot itself. so no soil medium actually sits in the water at all. the pumice is what sits in the water, and naturally wicks water up to the soil. so far i have not experienced any signs of over-saturation (i've lifted the containers to make sure they didn't have too much weight to them) I'll take some pics when i get back home today and put them in my thread. hopefully, they will still be looking good


Gotcha I think I've seen you make a 5 gal sip before? I'm stuck on what size net pot to use I was thinking maybe 4in?


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## ShLUbY (Jan 19, 2018)

dubekoms said:


> Gotcha I think I've seen you make a 5 gal sip before? I'm stuck on what size net pot to use I was thinking maybe 4in?


t'was not me! but it sounds like fun though. Just haven't gotten around to it yet!


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## dubekoms (Jan 19, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> t'was not me! but it sounds like fun though. Just haven't gotten around to it yet!


I need my coffee lol, here's that swick thing I was talking about. https://www.420magazine.com/forums/cabinet-closet-and-grow-room-setup/244149-swick-watering-systems-letting-plant-water-itself.html


----------



## CaptainSnap (Jan 20, 2018)

Well thanks for the tips everyone! 


> [
> you could get one of those large, deep "runoff trays" you know the 4x4 and 4x8 ones that are like 8 inches deep... and then install a float valve on it so that when it goes below a certain level, it will trip the water back on and refill it. basically you'd be building a passive hydro table, which seems awesome to me! it may require you to prop your plants up slightly, but it would definitely do the trick.
> 
> also, you could go the blumat route, if you are not attached to having SIP garden, and they do a pretty damn good job. sometimes they can be finicky, but the same thing can apply. you can get a reservoir, install a float valve, and then not have to worry about leaving for several days!
> ...


----------



## CaptainSnap (Jan 20, 2018)

opps! not sure how my post became one big quote....


----------



## ShLUbY (Jan 20, 2018)

CaptainSnap said:


> Well thanks for the tips everyone!


those little blumats literally are the worst. i couldn't even get them to work. complete waste of money. If you're gonna go blumat route, the regulars and the maxi's are the only way to go. really, the lines are not a pain at all man. now i don't even have my reservoirs in my flower room, i run the line through the wall and it just lays on the floor, and they're really easy to work around. if you get the silicon tubing (and don't use the black non flexible crap line they come with) they're a piece of cake to move around, adjust, disconnect whenever needed.... makes life easy. I think the blumats are 100% worth the money.

As for the little "psuedosip" style i put together in my veg side.... working like a charm! the plants are super happy and healthy, and best of all, the soil is staying at the perfect moisture level. I'm gonna make a post in my thread later today with some updates as to the happenings in the garden. but so far, very very very happy with the way that sip style is working and will be doing it from now on with my smaller containers, and i'm likely gonna try it with a larger container too as a test and see how it goes. I'm a little more skeptical of the larger container having to fight gravity and all with no "wicks" in the soil.


----------



## AnimalMother1974 (Feb 13, 2018)

Lets say you ferment a plant that contains a disease thats not obvious. Will said disease carry over to the fermented juice?


----------



## SSGrower (Feb 13, 2018)

AnimalMother1974 said:


> Lets say you ferment a plant that contains a disease thats not obvious. Will said disease carry over to the fermented juice?


I worry about this myself. Point - ferments can be used in IPM, Counterpoint - there s no silver bullet.

I choose plants and parts of plants carefully to ferment, I usually wont use a whole plant, only the healthiest parts.

Very curious to know what those who are educated in ths matter know and think? I would suspect managment of the fermentation (pH, temp, aero vs. anero.....) is a primary influence.


----------



## CaptainSnap (Feb 13, 2018)

Thanks Shluby for your advice on those cheap blumats. I choose to go with no till Sips containers as I can't be doing as much work anymore with a degenerative lower disc.


----------



## Thai_Lights (Feb 13, 2018)

I like SIPS so far... will be recycling the soil not a no till.


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 13, 2018)

CaptainSnap said:


> Thanks Shluby for your advice on those cheap blumats. I choose to go with no till Sips containers as I can't be doing as much work anymore with a degenerative lower disc.


sorry to hear about your lower disc man. i hear that is really a PITA to deal with. Good luck with the sips, i'm sure they'll work great for you!


----------



## CaptainSnap (Feb 13, 2018)

Appreciate the sincerity brother! It sure is a PITA and its a daily reminder that I should of worn a damn seatbelt. Over the winter I've been working my butt off redoing everything to make less work on the lower back. Yesterday I mixed up 30 gallons of soil, took down 2 lights and felt everything shift!! Spent several hours laying on the floor with a heating pad....as bad as that sounds I was up and moving this morning!! And I couldn't be happier about the SIPS thus far and Ive got my fingers crossed that the no till works just as wellLess physical soil mixing and water moving is a must now. Check out the one week difference with my 20 Gallon SIPS in recycled living organic soil....





Freshly Transplanted on 2/7





Almost a full 7 days later! Todays photo 2/13


----------



## CaptainSnap (Feb 13, 2018)

Lets try that last pic again....





She's a Grape Fat Cheese from FatMarty back when there was a Fat Purple grow off in the Michigan Patients Section


----------



## CaptainSnap (Feb 13, 2018)

Hope Im not over posting but the last 2 photos aren't showing on my screen....last attempt!


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 13, 2018)

CaptainSnap said:


> Hope Im not over posting but the last 2 photos aren't showing on my screen....last attempt!


lol yeah they came up on all three for me! nice work with the sip! Looking healthy  . and yeah, going no till and easier watering methods are a must. there's nothing i hate more than breaking up root balls to recycle the mix. rather do it once with a no till after a year or two than constantly doing it every harvest. really lightens the load of work!


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## CaptainSnap (Feb 13, 2018)

I'm looking forward to all of that SHluby and couldn't agree more! Are worms a must in the no till pots?? Was planning to top plants with insect frass, osf, gypsum, kelp,and biolive along with compost. I do have the worms but just haven't added them as I don't want to worry about keeping the very top of the soil moist.


----------



## ShLUbY (Feb 13, 2018)

CaptainSnap said:


> I'm looking forward to all of that SHluby and couldn't agree more! Are worms a must in the no till pots?? Was planning to top plants with insect frass, osf, gypsum, kelp,and biolive along with compost. I do have the worms but just haven't added them as I don't want to worry about keeping the very top of the soil moist.


well here's the thing... when you topdress, you need moisture in the top of the soil so organisms can be motile and the amendments to be moist and easier to decompose so they can perform nutrient cycling with your topdressings. so unless you're burying your nutrients an inch or more below the surface where there is more moisture, you kind of need to keep that top layer moist for breakdown. At least for accelerated breakdown. Worms will also help break stuff down and aerate the soil, and provide you with fresh compost on top of the pot pretty much always! you don't need a large population or anything. i add roughly 20-30 or so worms to each no-till every few cycles so far. if i scrape back the mulch layer and i don't see many (which may not necessarily mean that they aren't in there somewhere) i just add a few back in. worms will go where the moisture is, so if its kinda dry up top, they'll be on the boundary of that moist/dry area.

i imagine that piece of panda film keeps the upper layer of soil moist enough yeah?


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## CaptainSnap (Feb 14, 2018)

Thank you for a good explanation shluby! The panda film does do a good job of keeping the surface moist. I wasn't sure how many worms it would take either per pot. I can easily handle throwing 2 dozen worms on the top of the sips containers Thanks again for the advice


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## Tim Fox (Feb 15, 2018)

here is my space kitties and jack herer Mainlined in a GrowBox SIP water only grow,


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## ShLUbY (Feb 15, 2018)

Tim Fox said:


> here is my space kitties and jack herer Mainlined in a GrowBox SIP water only grow, View attachment 4090313 View attachment 4090314 View attachment 4090315 View attachment 4090316


nice manifolds!


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## CaptainSnap (Feb 16, 2018)

Your sips mainlined look good Tim Fox! How many weeks vegging to get to that point?


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## Tim Fox (Feb 16, 2018)

CaptainSnap said:


> Your sips mainlined look good Tim Fox! How many weeks vegging to get to that point?


good morning, i vegged for 5 weeks on the nose this time,,, the mainlining allowed me to get a bigger root system and thicker trucks/stalks , and stay shorter,,, i have been in flower now for 8 days, and have lots of room for stretch, the goal being to not have hardly any larf/popcorn this grow, just main cola's,, its been fun doing nugbuckets mainlings this grow


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## ShLUbY (Feb 16, 2018)

Tim Fox said:


> good morning, i vegged for 5 weeks on the nose this time,,, the mainlining allowed me to get a bigger root system and thicker trucks/stalks , and stay shorter,,, i have been in flower now for 8 days, and have lots of room for stretch, the goal being to not have hardly any larf/popcorn this grow, just main cola's,, its been fun doing nugbuckets mainlings this grow


haha i don't think you'll have any larf issues with those ladies! Well done.


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## Tim Fox (Feb 16, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> haha i don't think you'll have any larf issues with those ladies! Well done.


thanks, here in Legal Oregon a rec grower can have 8 ounces of dried flower and grow 4 plants with no cards or doctors,, i am easily close to my 8 ounces before i even started this grow, i almost skipped growing this winter,, but my buddies talked me into it, so i decided to just do something fun, that i have always wanted to try, I only grow for my own needs, and this grow cab more than provides, i could also easily just go buy some from the state legal stores,, shoot grams are as low as 3-5 dollars hahaha,, thats how over saturated the market is here


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## ShLUbY (Feb 16, 2018)

Tim Fox said:


> thanks, here in Legal Oregon a rec grower can have 8 ounces of dried flower and grow 4 plants with no cards or doctors,, i am easily close to my 8 ounces before i even started this grow, i almost skipped growing this winter,, but my buddies talked me into it, so i decided to just do something fun, that i have always wanted to try, I only grow for my own needs, and this grow cab more than provides, i could also easily just go buy some from the state legal stores,, shoot grams are as low as 3-5 dollars hahaha,, thats how over saturated the market is here


haha yeah I bet. that's awesome that the laws there are reasonable. half pound? nice! i mean med patients can only have 2.5oz here in MI... but can possess 12 plants? who came up with this stuff? lol


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## Tim Fox (Feb 16, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> haha yeah I bet. that's awesome that the laws there are reasonable. half pound? nice! i mean med patients can only have 2.5oz here in MI... but can possess 12 plants? who came up with this stuff? lol


so funny right,,,, they are clueless,,, my 2 plants in my little box usually go well past 8 ounces per harvest,,,, this grow may not since i mainlined them so hard and keeping them small,,, 
i probably only smoke 1/4 ounce a month if that,,


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## Tim Fox (Feb 16, 2018)

here is how my sip grow started out this time around,, i have a DIY cob light panel with 4 citi's 4k's and 2 crees 3K fully dimmable and capable of putting out 375 watts at full power,, which is around 60 watts per square foot if needed,, right now the light is on 275 watts,, or around 40 watts per square foot


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## GoRealUhGro (Feb 21, 2018)

I got a q for ya root...I have some f f moonshine mix I made about 2 1/2 yrs ago...I posted about this but I'm just asking everyones opinions...I wanted to do a no till with my pots ..that was the plan..this was the first run of the soil... plus I added many..to many... nute teas..and acts...top dressed with a few diff things too..but th feds snagged my plants in July..just beginning to flower..long white hairs...well the soil is still in the 45 gal smart pots that they didn't slice open..it's been outside in the rain and cold..and heat ever since.. my q is how would you use the soil..I have some awesome compost I made...should I take it out and mix it.. if so how much..and wouldn't all the nutes I added still be in the soil..well basically.... my plans were to hit it with some facts..and top dress..idk what top dress would be the best..or even if that would be best...I'm bout to take my pots into the woods very soon so if if anyone could toss some input my way I'd be very grateful.. t y


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## ShLUbY (Feb 21, 2018)

GoRealUhGro said:


> I got a q for ya root...I have some f f moonshine mix I made about 2 1/2 yrs ago...I posted about this but I'm just asking everyones opinions...I wanted to do a no till with my pots ..that was the plan..this was the first run of the soil... plus I added many..to many... nute teas..and acts...top dressed with a few diff things too..but th feds snagged my plants in July..just beginning to flower..long white hairs...well the soil is still in the 45 gal smart pots that they didn't slice open..it's been outside in the rain and cold..and heat ever since.. my q is how would you use the soil..I have some awesome compost I made...should I take it out and mix it.. if so how much..and wouldn't all the nutes I added still be in the soil..well basically.... my plans were to hit it with some facts..and top dress..idk what top dress would be the best..or even if that would be best...I'm bout to take my pots into the woods very soon so if if anyone could toss some input my way I'd be very grateful.. t y


i would guess that they have leached quite a few nutrients being exposed to the weather, and that the microbes have broken down quite a bit of it. you could mix in about 15% of the total volume worth of compost, this would help recharge microbial life and add fresh humus to your mix. You may want to consider re-liming the mix as well... maybe at 1/4c/cuft. Other than that, i would just topdress a good all purpose mix of amendments into the first couple inches, and mulch that in, and call it good. You can always add more topdressings later (like one geared more towards the bloom with a little higher PK than N)


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## GoRealUhGro (Feb 21, 2018)

Awesome..thank you so much


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## MrKnotty (Feb 21, 2018)

GoRealUhGro said:


> I got a q for ya root...I have some f f moonshine mix I made about 2 1/2 yrs ago...I posted about this but I'm just asking everyones opinions...I wanted to do a no till with my pots ..that was the plan..this was the first run of the soil... plus I added many..to many... nute teas..and acts...top dressed with a few diff things too..but th feds snagged my plants in July..just beginning to flower..long white hairs...well the soil is still in the 45 gal smart pots that they didn't slice open..it's been outside in the rain and cold..and heat ever since.. my q is how would you use the soil..I have some awesome compost I made...should I take it out and mix it.. if so how much..and wouldn't all the nutes I added still be in the soil..well basically.... my plans were to hit it with some facts..and top dress..idk what top dress would be the best..or even if that would be best...I'm bout to take my pots into the woods very soon so if if anyone could toss some input my way I'd be very grateful.. t y


You sure it was the FEDS and not some punk ass neighbor? The feds are really only fucking with really big grows.


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## GoRealUhGro (Feb 21, 2018)

Uh yea..I watched them repel into my patch bub...12 car loads of states went through my property and to the neighbors side where I had it.... national guard helicopter.. idk about your state but cops here literally stake out for days in the woods..I guess it wasn't the FBI...I have a bad habit about calling the authority "the feds"..def not a neighbor in a national guard helicopter...and it wasn't only the states.. another organization was involved


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## GoRealUhGro (Feb 21, 2018)

MrKnotty said:


> You sure it was the FEDS and not some punk ass neighbor? The feds are really only fucking with really big grows.


Oops..it's above


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## dubekoms (Feb 21, 2018)

GoRealUhGro said:


> Uh yea..I watched them repel into my patch bub...12 car loads of states went through my property and to the neighbors side where I had it.... national guard helicopter.. idk about your state but cops here literally stake out for days in the woods..I guess it wasn't the FBI...I have a bad habit about calling the authority "the feds"..def not a neighbor in a national guard helicopter...and it wasn't only the states.. another organization was involved


What time in July if you don't mind. I was thinking of doing some autos that should be done by first to second week of July. Plan is to avoid what happened to you lol


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## GoRealUhGro (Feb 21, 2018)

Mid July I think...if the old thread is on here I was posting on I can tell u the exact day...my prob was I cut out the middle of a blackberry/old clear cut..buuut I cut just a lil to much...my plants were pretty nice too..bigger than about anything around here is seen..and IV seen a lot..def no comparison to some monsters on here but all of them except the ones in totes would def be over a lb...and the biggest one prob closer to two, two and a half.. that's being modest...autos u prob won't need to worry.. never grew em but I mean how big could they actually get ya know..just don't plant 250 in one obvious spot lol


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## GreenLogician (Feb 21, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Equal parts peat moss, wormcastings / compost and garden pumice.


Hi! I'm planning on using perlite rather than pumice, and my question is - is the pumice/perlite important for the cooking stage?
My composting bin is almost full, and I haven't added the perlite yet.
*I was hoping I could add the perlite* *after cooking my soil? *
Upon transplanting and use, instead of up front.


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## MrKnotty (Feb 22, 2018)

GoRealUhGro said:


> Uh yea..I watched them repel into my patch bub...12 car loads of states went through my property and to the neighbors side where I had it.... national guard helicopter.. idk about your state but cops here literally stake out for days in the woods..I guess it wasn't the FBI...I have a bad habit about calling the authority "the feds"..def not a neighbor in a national guard helicopter...and it wasn't only the states.. another organization was involved


Crazy...yeah I live in California, we don't really worry about that too much. There are some counties that claim no tolerance but it really doesn't matter. There is suppose to be a 99 plant limit too, but that is almost never followed by large grows haha. So crazy to me that law enforcement would come for 2 pound plants, Cali is definitely it's own little bubble when it comes to ganja. It's wild how out in the open it is.


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## ShLUbY (Feb 22, 2018)

GreenLogician said:


> Hi! I'm planning on using perlite rather than pumice, and my question is - is the pumice/perlite important for the cooking stage?
> My composting bin is almost full, and I haven't added the perlite yet.
> *I was hoping I could add the perlite* *after cooking my soil? *
> Upon transplanting and use, instead of up front.


the problem without it is that the perlite adds some lightness and air to the mix... so without it, you would want to be fluffing the soil up and moving it around quite often to make sure that it (the mix) has enough oxygen. as long as you do that, i don't see you running into any issues.


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## dubekoms (Feb 22, 2018)

GoRealUhGro said:


> Mid July I think...if the old thread is on here I was posting on I can tell u the exact day...my prob was I cut out the middle of a blackberry/old clear cut..buuut I cut just a lil to much...my plants were pretty nice too..bigger than about anything around here is seen..and IV seen a lot..def no comparison to some monsters on here but all of them except the ones in totes would def be over a lb...and the biggest one prob closer to two, two and a half.. that's being modest...autos u prob won't need to worry.. never grew em but I mean how big could they actually get ya know..just don't plant 250 in one obvious spot lol


Yeah the autos I'm growing should be quick flowering so I don't think they should get too big, maybe a couple ounces each. I have a good friend who had his outdoor raided by the cops. They also had a helicopter but they didn't come around until August. His were fucken tiny and well hidden with camo grow bags, idk how they saw them from the air. I've heard of weed having a different heat signature compared to the native plants idk if that's true or not. I figure if i can get my shit harvested before they even bring the helicopter out I'm good to go.


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## GreenLogician (Feb 22, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> the problem without it is that the perlite adds some lightness and air to the mix... so without it, you would want to be fluffing the soil up and moving it around quite often to make sure that it (the mix) has enough oxygen. as long as you do that, i don't see you running into any issues.


Awesome, I did just get a compost tumbler and can turn it well regularly at little effort


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## ShLUbY (Feb 22, 2018)

GreenLogician said:


> Awesome, I did just get a compost tumbler and can turn it well regularly at little effort


i use the same method. no more mixing with hands! spin and grin!


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## neroceasar (Mar 17, 2018)

has anyone tried introducing a SCOBY into their reservoirs?


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## neroceasar (Apr 17, 2018)

Damn! No traffic this last month! I tried putting a scoby with some kombucha in the res and it just made the res smell for awhile. scobys are prob best used as a top dressing.


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 18, 2018)

Tim Fox said:


> here is how my sip grow started out this time around,, i have a DIY cob light panel with 4 citi's 4k's and 2 crees 3K fully dimmable and capable of putting out 375 watts at full power,, which is around 60 watts per square foot if needed,, right now the light is on 275 watts,, or around 40 watts per square foot View attachment 4090781


Do you run the drivers at 220V? 
Are there three drivers on that frame? 

Please forgive my ignorance, I just started learning about DIY LED and may do a build soon.


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## NoTillPhil (Apr 19, 2018)

Thoughts on amending garden soil with rice hulls 3 weeks before planting time?


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## ANC (Apr 19, 2018)

They shouldn't be a problem. They will only start doing anything towards the later parts of the grow as they break down.


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## ShLUbY (Apr 19, 2018)

NoTillPhil said:


> Thoughts on amending garden soil with rice hulls 3 weeks before planting time?


are you just looking to increase drainage? because they don't really work for that all that long. better options out there. i prefer rice hulls as a mulch more than anything.


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## Chunky Stool (Apr 19, 2018)

ShLUbY said:


> are you just looking to increase drainage? because they don't really work for that all that long. better options out there. i prefer rice hulls as a mulch more than anything.


Rice hulls are a good source of silica, which helps build resistance to drought, insect attack, and mold/mildew. 
And unlike DE, rich hulls stay put and don't wash out.


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## neroceasar (Apr 19, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Rice hulls are a good source of silica, which helps build resistance to drought, insect attack, and mold/mildew.
> And unlike DE, rich hulls stay put and don't wash out.


after a few rounds they'll be completely gone. However, there's duel sides to this for no till & SIPs. If ya have
adequate soil life, they take care of aeration & if your not having cascading water from the top your not fuckin up those burrows. Total water saturation may be an issue but ive been looking into the classic: SAND as a possible remedy. that shit'll last years & years. not to mention its what commercial farmers use for drainage.


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## NoTillPhil (Apr 19, 2018)

No problem for me if they last one grow outdoors. I am intending to replace perlite in garden soil. Perlite causes problems after a couple years in garden soil breaking down and assisting compaction. Seems to me while rice hulls would need to be amended yearly it would overall increase organic matter in the soil. Production methods are also more earth friendly.


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## neroceasar (Apr 20, 2018)

they're definitely better & cheaper than perlite. if your looking for something guaranteed to last the year outdoors, pumice or lava rock is best. really depends on where ya are and how big o pots u gotta fill. west coast will have pumice, cheap. if ya go and pick it up at a landscaping place its like $40-80 a YARD. lava rock works, but it ant cheap.


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## NoTillPhil (Apr 20, 2018)

I've already amended with compost and will also be adding peat to the native soil. Between the three I think drainage for the year should be greatly improved. I'll be sticking a couple in smart pots and the rest into mounds I started in December. Fortunately we have had enough warm spells to allow the piles to heat and reheat several times since then. I also have a nice bulk compost that will be ready enough to. use as mulch throughout the summer. With luck it will finish and I can add it to the smart pot mix. 

My starts below........


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## neroceasar (Apr 20, 2018)

NoTillPhil said:


> I've already amended with compost and will also be adding peat to the native soil. Between the three I think drainage for the year should be greatly improved. I'll be sticking a couple in smart pots and the rest into mounds I started in December. Fortunately we have had enough warm spells to allow the piles to heat and reheat several times since then. I also have a nice bulk compost that will be ready enough to. use as mulch throughout the summer. With luck it will finish and I can add it to the smart pot mix.
> 
> My starts below........View attachment 4124604


Nice! another tip if your goin for weight/gurth/size is to skip the smart pot, make a mound or just use garden fabric as siding. believe it or not the pot will restrict roots significantly if they have to grow thru it to the soil. i found it hard to believe initially bc ya always see root poking out the bottom of fabric containers but its true!


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## SSGrower (Apr 20, 2018)

NoTillPhil said:


> No problem for me if they last one grow outdoors. I am intending to replace perlite in garden soil. Perlite causes problems after a couple years in garden soil breaking down and assisting compaction. Seems to me while rice hulls would need to be amended yearly it would overall increase organic matter in the soil. Production methods are also more earth friendly.


Expanded Shale.


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## neroceasar (Apr 24, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> Expanded Shale.


i've always been curious about it. the aquaponic guys love it. pretty cheap in the midwest/eastcoast.


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## MrKnotty (May 5, 2018)

neroceasar said:


> Damn! No traffic this last month! I tried putting a scoby with some kombucha in the res and it just made the res smell for awhile. scobys are prob best used as a top dressing.


Have you used one as a top dressing before?


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## neroceasar (May 8, 2018)

MrKnotty said:


> Have you used one as a top dressing before?


Ney, but they dissipate faster than most scraps in my worm bin. when i get another one i'll give her a try. I can't imagine it'd do anything negative. my plants really seamed to like the scooby in the res but when ya got near it, you smelled it..... 
I checked my res's ph for first time and it was dead on 6.5. really happy with this method hyroot's put together now i've just been diving into KNF and how it can be incorporated more fully with this method. Reallly love the sugar extractions/ferments but IMO and OHN should kick up the game crazy.


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## MrKnotty (May 10, 2018)

Wow that's super interesting, keep me posted. I'd love to hear the results. I might be sticking a scobi in my water tomorrow! Test it out on some extras ladies!!


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## DonTesla (Aug 21, 2018)

MrKnotty said:


> Wow that's super interesting, keep me posted. I'd love to hear the results. I might be sticking a scobi in my water tomorrow! Test it out on some extras ladies!!


Just got some of the scobe too, we were talking about this, half jokingly, are you gonna give it a shot, I'd be all ears!


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## Chronikool (Aug 21, 2018)

I just tried a FPJ (Aloe + Comfrey) as a foliar for the 1st time on my veg tent. (its being about an hour. Turned the lights of after) I figured these 2 would make a good combo as one. (maybe kelp and these 2 would be better) 

Anywayz...interested if anybody else is having good success and uses FPJ's as part of their foliar routines? 

Just tried 50ml to about 2 litres. But may up this dosage.


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## Chunky Stool (Aug 21, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> I just tried a FPJ (Aloe + Comfrey) as a foliar for the 1st time on my veg tent. (its being about an hour. Turned the lights of after) I figured these 2 would make a good combo as one. (maybe kelp and these 2 would be better)
> 
> Anywayz...interested if anybody else is having good success and uses FPJ's as part of their foliar routines?
> 
> Just tried 50ml to about 2 litres. But may up this dosage.


How much aloe can plants handle? 
I've got some gel that I made by mashing up aloe in a jug of water before straining and freezing in ice cube trays. 
Can I just throw a few cubes in a 5 gal bucket?


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## DonTesla (Aug 21, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> How much aloe can plants handle?
> I've got some gel that I made by mashing up aloe in a jug of water before straining and freezing in ice cube trays.
> Can I just throw a few cubes in a 5 gal bucket?


About a tsp per Litre is pushing it, imo, anyway..
I would go for TBSP per gallon, and use more often, I find if you go heavier you leave white films and little aloe chunks on the leaves, and you have to mist and clean them off for good photos or clean leaves..

What a treat for the plants though. Check out how potent and loaded this stuff is..

_The ten + main areas of chemical constituents of Aloe vera include: _

_Amino Acids, _
_Anthraquinones, _
_Enzymes, _
_Minerals, _
_Vitamins, _
_Lignins, _
_Monosaccharide, _
_Polysaccharides, _
_Salicylic Acid, _
_Saponins, And _
_Sterols._
_
Amino acids found in Aloe vera include: 
Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Valine,And Tryptophan. 

Some Of The Other Non-Essential Amino Acids Found In Aloe Vera Include:
Alanine, Arginine, Asparagine, Cysteine, Glutamic Acid, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine, Glutamine, and Aspartic Acid.

Enzymes in Aloe include:
Amylase, Bradykinase, Catalase, Cellulas, Lipase, Oxidase, Alkaline Phosphatase, Proteolytias, Creatine Phosphokinase and Carboxypeptidase.

Aloe vera also contains these Vitamins:
B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, and B12 

As well as these elements: 
Choline, Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, Manganese, Chromium, Selenium, Copper, Iron, Potassium, Phosphorus, And Sodium._


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## Chunky Stool (Aug 21, 2018)

DonTesla said:


> About a tsp per Litre is pushing it, imo, anyway..
> I would go for TBSP per gallon, and use more often, I find if you go heavier you leave white films and little aloe chunks on the leaves, and you have to mist and clean them off for good photos or clean leaves..
> 
> What a treat for the plants though. Check out how potent and loaded this stuff is..
> ...


Have you tried aloe in a soil drench?
My plants are flowering and I don't like to spray them with anything. Humidity is also high so PM is in the air...


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## Chronikool (Aug 21, 2018)

Chronikool said:


> I just tried a FPJ (Aloe + Comfrey) as a foliar for the 1st time on my veg tent. (its being about an hour. Turned the lights of after) I figured these 2 would make a good combo as one. (maybe kelp and these 2 would be better)
> 
> Anywayz...interested if anybody else is having good success and uses FPJ's as part of their foliar routines?
> 
> Just tried 50ml to about 2 litres. But may up this dosage.


So 12 hours later. No adverse effects from the spray down. Will continue to monitor.


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## DonTesla (Aug 22, 2018)

Chunky Stool said:


> Have you tried aloe in a soil drench?
> My plants are flowering and I don't like to spray them with anything. Humidity is also high so PM is in the air...


Yea bud. That I understand _completely_. Same here. You can use the same formula for drenching, or cut in half if you have light feeders.. sativa doms.. etc. Heavy feeders, indicas, can go nuts as is.

To help fight that PM, might want to sprinkle a TBSP of frass onto each topsoil.. water in, if you're still looking at a month or more in flower.

Can also drench with diluted 'LABS', that should help boost immune systems as well..


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## MrKnotty (Aug 22, 2018)

DonTesla said:


> Just got some of the scobe too, we were talking about this, half jokingly, are you gonna give it a shot, I'd be all ears!


I forgot all about this haha. I will try it eventually on some ladies that dont make it into the garden and let you know though. I mean if you can make pants from scobis, they can probably do anything.


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## Gritzman (Aug 27, 2018)

hyroot said:


> They will help. You will still have salts and chemicals in the soil. It will help bioremediate the soil. Plants get better and better each generation when using ferments
> 
> KNF - Korean Natural Farming
> 
> ...


Can Sucanat or sugar cane be substituted for molasses or brown sugar?


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## hyroot (Aug 28, 2018)

Gritzman said:


> Can Sucanat or sugar cane be substituted for molasses or brown sugar?


Yes


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## hyroot (Aug 28, 2018)

EM5 is often used as a type of homemade pesticide. The fermentation extracts properties out of plant materials and the alcohol and retains them in the liquid. The EM•1 in the recipe is the fermentation catalyst. EM•1 itself has no pesticide qualities at all. This is an all-natural concoction that can be made by anyone and is in no way harmful to humans or animals. It combines water, EM•1, a distilled spirit, molasses, and vinegar. The most successful programs with EM5 involve alternating its applications with Activated EM•1 and EMFPE. EM5 is effective for reducing pest populations because EM5 contains esters formed by mixing acetic acid and alcohol, which provokes intestinal intoxication.

The formula for one gallon of EM5 is as follows (1:1:1:1:20): 

3/4 C EM•1 
3/4 C Molasses
3/4 C Vinegar (white or apple cider)
3/4 C distilled alcohol (vodka, whiskey, tequila)
Add some other plant material (fresh hot peppers or garlic...or fresh herbs that have known pesticide properties like mint leaves, lavender, eucalyptus, mella luca, neem, etc.)
Fill the gallon container with warm water (110-120ºF)
Seal and ferment until pH goes below 4.0, 7-11 days
Spray EM5 alternately with EM•1.or EM•1 Fermented Plant Extract through a hose-end sprayer. The thought here is to prevent the pests from getting used to or building a tolerance to the same product.

Often people will set up an informal program as follows (Diluting the AEM•1, EM5, or EM FPE with 500 parts water):

Week One: Apply AEM•1, 1 gallon for 1/2 acre property
Week Two: Apply EM5, 1 gallon for 1/2 acre property
Week Three: Apply EM FPE, 1 gallon for 1/2 acre property
Week Four: Apply AEM•1®, 1 gallon for 1/2 acre property

This pattern is repeated throughout the growing season.


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## MrKnotty (Sep 6, 2018)

hyroot said:


> EM5 is often used as a type of homemade pesticide. The fermentation extracts properties out of plant materials and the alcohol and retains them in the liquid. The EM•1 in the recipe is the fermentation catalyst. EM•1 itself has no pesticide qualities at all. This is an all-natural concoction that can be made by anyone and is in no way harmful to humans or animals. It combines water, EM•1, a distilled spirit, molasses, and vinegar. The most successful programs with EM5 involve alternating its applications with Activated EM•1 and EMFPE. EM5 is effective for reducing pest populations because EM5 contains esters formed by mixing acetic acid and alcohol, which provokes intestinal intoxication.
> 
> The formula for one gallon of EM5 is as follows (1:1:1:1:20):
> 
> ...


Always dropping knowledge like a boss. Gracias!


----------



## Miyagismokes (Sep 14, 2018)

Is the rice wash at all necessary for LABS? don't I get the same if I let milk spoil naturally? Milk should always favor lactose consumers.
If the milk needs inocculation, you could just spit in it, right? Lacto is natural oral flora...


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## hyroot (Sep 14, 2018)

Miyagismokes said:


> Is the rice wash at all necessary for LABS? don't I get the same if I let milk spoil naturally? Milk should always favor lactose consumers.
> If the milk needs inocculation, you could just spit in it, right? Lacto is natural oral flora...



Yes. Rice wash provides carbs for the bacteria to feed on. Without the rice wash domesticated bacteria strains that thrive in milk will outcompete other bacteria. You won't get the same results.

You can use cereal or other grains instead of rice. Just make sure no pesticides or glyphosates were used on them, like general mills does. They use chemical pesticides and they use glyphosate as a ripening agent on their fields. C&H sugar does the same too.


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## hyroot (Sep 14, 2018)

Some of my genetics that I'm currently running . The seeds were harvested in April 2017


Bermuda breath - Benevolence x mendo breath f1 day 27



Highland Breath - Benevolence x Oaxacan Highland Gold Mexican Landrace. Day 28



I'll have f2 seeds of highland breath available at the end of the year.

I still have several bermuda breath males to flower and hunt to make f2's and test them. So it will be a while for those. I'll have some other f1's available next year once testing phase is done.


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## Miyagismokes (Sep 15, 2018)

hyroot said:


> glyphosate as a ripening agent


Ugh...


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## ACitizenofColorado (Sep 15, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Some of my genetics that I'm currently running . The seeds were harvested in April 2017
> 
> 
> Bermuda breath - Benevolence x mendo breath f1 day 27
> ...


Hyroot, your pictures are beautiful! In which state are you located/will the seeds be available?


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## hyroot (Sep 19, 2018)

CAL-PHOS

1.Collect a bunch of eggshells and wash to remove inside filaments. Remember, you can also use bones and other good sources of calcium like seashells, clams and oysters, etc. Likewise, if you only want calcium, even limestone can be used, or simple lime. Egg shells for soluble calcium. Animal bones for soluble phos.

2. Pan fry the eggshells or bones. Fry until some are brown/black, some white. The burnt shells are your Calcium source while the white are the Phosphorus source.

3.After roasting the eggshells or bones, grind them up. You can do it manually, with a mortar and pestle, throw them in a blender or electric coffee grinder, etc.

4. Add them to a jar and add 5 parts vinegar by volume. For example, if you have 1 cup ground shells, add 5 cups vinegar.

The acid in the vinegar helps digest them. You will notice bubbling as this process converts the ingredients to liquid calcium phosphate.

5. Wait until tiny bubbles disappear

6. Seal the jar and ferment for 20 days.

7. Filter into another jar

8. Now you’ve made your own Calcium Phosphate

NOW :How to Use

Mix 1 tbsp per gallon

Plants

Spray on leaves during transition phase to flower, and when fruits are large and mature

Transition Phase: Induces flowering, eases nutrient demands of transition phase, strengthens flowers

Mature Fruit: Strengthens plant stems, leaves, fruits, helps fruit mature properly for optimum sweet flavor.

You can also skip the vinegar and compost the cal-phos and feed them to worms. Then you will have compost with phos solublizing enzymes and high phos compost.


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## DankTankerous (Sep 19, 2018)

hyroot said:


> CAL-PHOS
> 
> 1.Collect a bunch of eggshells and wash to remove inside filaments. Remember, you can also use bones and other good sources of calcium like seashells, clams and oysters, etc. Likewise, if you only want calcium, even limestone can be used, or simple lime. Egg shells for soluble calcium. Animal bones for soluble phos.
> 
> ...


How often do you feed your worms egg shells? Is it one and done or...? I’m curious because I gave mine egg shells maybe a month ago, I was considering giving them crab shell meal. Would that be too much?


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## Miyagismokes (Sep 19, 2018)

hyroot said:


> CAL-PHOS
> 
> 1.Collect a bunch of eggshells and wash to remove inside filaments. Remember, you can also use bones and other good sources of calcium like seashells, clams and oysters, etc. Likewise, if you only want calcium, even limestone can be used, or simple lime. Egg shells for soluble calcium. Animal bones for soluble phos.
> 
> ...


I have to try this with my expended soup bones.


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## hyroot (Sep 19, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> How often do you feed your worms egg shells? Is it one and done or...? I’m curious because I gave mine egg shells maybe a month ago, I was considering giving them crab shell meal. Would that be too much?



I feed the worms egg shells once every 2 weeks. Make sure to pulverize or puree the shells. I mix the shells with bokashi and top that onto some veggie scraps. Crab shell meal is good too. 

Egg shells will keep the bin ph on point. So you never get pot worms.


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## DankTankerous (Sep 19, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I feed the worms egg shells once every 2 weeks. Make sure to pulverize or puree the shells. I mix the shells with bokashi and top that onto some veggie scraps. Crab shell meal is good too.
> 
> Egg shells will keep the bin ph on point. So you never get pot worms.


I’m sorry what are pot worms?


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## hyroot (Sep 21, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> I’m sorry what are pot worms?


Little tiny white worms. They're not harmful. They ferd on organic material. At a slower rate than red wigglers. But pot worms thrive in a low ph environment and red wigglers can't survive in the same environment. Pot worms are a sign of low ph in a worm bin or soil. 
.
Some people mistake them for baby red wigglers. But red wiggers are red from the moment they hatch from a cacoon.


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## hyroot (Sep 21, 2018)




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## hyroot (Sep 21, 2018)




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## hyroot (Sep 23, 2018)

For cal-phos I forgot to add if you're a using animal bones you want it charred black. Cooked over an open flame for few hours. In the oven or skillet it will take a week.... if you don't have a fire pit. You can always pick up some down to earth fish bone meal. It's already processed. Crustacean meal works too. Both have cal-phos.


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## Mary's Confidant (Oct 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> CAL-PHOS
> 
> 1.Collect a bunch of eggshells and wash to remove inside filaments. Remember, you can also use bones and other good sources of calcium like seashells, clams and oysters, etc. Likewise, if you only want calcium, even limestone can be used, or simple lime. Egg shells for soluble calcium. Animal bones for soluble phos.
> 
> ...


Hey Hyroot, thanks for offering these recipes. 

Should I cook the eggshells until they are darker next time?

 
Two dozen eggshells made about a half cup
 

This is what the initial bloom looks like after adding vinegar (added 2.5 cups for my .5 cups of crushed/roasted eggshells)
 
This is about 10-20 mins later, is this what it should look like before being capped/fermented?


Please offer any feedback. I thought the smell was bad when cooking the eggshells but the smell after adding the vinegar:


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## hyroot (Oct 10, 2018)

Mary's Confidant said:


> Hey Hyroot, thanks for offering these recipes.
> 
> Should I cook the eggshells until they are darker next time?
> 
> ...



Egg shells are 97% calcium carbonate and 3% calcium phosphate.

You want to char the egg shells for calcium. Uncooked for phos.

Mine gets that reaction with egg shells but not animal bones

Here I just started a wcap with chicken bones.

1. I removed all the meat. Boiled the bones for 40 min.

2. Then washed the bones with soap and hot water.

3. Then I boiled the bones for 20 min

4. Then laid out the bones on a baking sheet and set them outside for 12 days to dry out until the middle sized ones were able to easily snap. Temps here have been 85°-.95° F during the day.

I didn't takes pics of boiling and cleaning.

After the bonws had dried out




5. I warmed up the bbq as hot as i could get it. Almost 500°. F Put the baking sheet of bones on the bbq for 2 1/2 hours. For the first 30 minutes there was tons of smoke. DO NO DO THIS INDOORS! Like with an oven or skillet.

It smelled just like burnt charred food. 



6. Then easily pulverized the bones with a mortar and pestle.




7. I poured the bone meal into a food grade plastic bottle and added the vinegar. ( I gave away all my jars and haven't got new ones yet).

3/4 cup bone meal : 3 3/4 cups vinegar



8. I sealed the lid with an airlock to allow co2 to escape but not to let any contaminants get into the bottle.


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## projectinfo (Oct 11, 2018)

Still reading.

Glad this thread is still going.

@hyroot , man thanks for laying this out for everyone

Are you guys all going from seed every time or just cut a new clone sized hole next to the old stem?

Id like to veg these a little befor putting then into flower, also id like a chance to remove the males.

Im asking because i keep my room in flower all the time and veg in a tent so it wouldnt make much sense to be starting seeds @12hrs light


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## projectinfo (Oct 12, 2018)

@hyroot, really interested to know why to choose soma box with no drains vs sips where you can remove the lower res?

Can you pots some pics of the setup or what your using? The flower and tutorials are on point.

Read the thread and currently re reading your posts specifically, i foundout you can search within a thread for a username. Cuts out alot of.. . well . these kind of posts 

Also wandering if you guys ever clean where the water sits.... Id be scared it would get slimy and smelly like hydro if you dont clean everything


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## hyroot (Oct 12, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> @hyroot, really interested to know why to choose soma box with no drains vs sips where you can remove the lower res?
> 
> Can you pots some pics of the setup ot the what your using? The flower and tutorials are on point.
> 
> ...


My soma sip does have a drain out the side. 1/2 inch hole with pvc sticking out.

Adding labs or em1 to the resi when filled with water keeps water cleaner and kills of any pathogens. Azos will kill off algae


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## hyroot (Oct 12, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Still reading.
> 
> Glad this thread is still going.
> 
> ...


Seed and clone. I veg in 2 and 3 gal pots before transplanting. My veg space is 7 x 5 and my flower space is 12x 8. I veg for 6-8 weeeks from clone and 3 months from seed. I do start seeds and clones in party cups. After I transplant into final pots in the flower room, I still veg for another 2 - 3 weeks. I run the whole flower room on the sane schedule. More perpetua batchesl can be done. My veg space doesn't allow fot that.


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## projectinfo (Oct 13, 2018)

hyroot said:


> My soma sip does have a drain out the side. 1/2 inch hole with pvc sticking out.
> 
> Adding labs or em1 to the resi when filled with water keeps water cleaner and kills of any pathogens. Azos will kill off algae


You dont use an airstone in your res eh?

Do you alwase keep your res topped up or let it dry out befor adding more to it?

Can you remove the res portion from your soma box ?

Do you just reuse the soil and box for years without cleaning the res or pipes ?

Im coming from hydro where you need to clean things very regularly, and standing water means root rot you know

You have a long veg time, how tall when you put them into flower?


I have a 7 ft cieling so im thinking 2 plants per 25gal and flower at 14-20 inches.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 13, 2018)

hyroot said:


> CAL-PHOS
> 
> 1.Collect a bunch of eggshells and wash to remove inside filaments. Remember, you can also use bones and other good sources of calcium like seashells, clams and oysters, etc. Likewise, if you only want calcium, even limestone can be used, or simple lime. Egg shells for soluble calcium. Animal bones for soluble phos.
> 
> ...


So basically I can skip this whole process by simply composting my egg shells? I compost about 1000 eggshells a year, in a final amount of about 6 cubic feet of compost. I use this at a rate of 33% to make my bedding base for the worm bins. thanks


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## Ecompost (Oct 13, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Egg shells are 97% calcium carbonate and 3% calcium phosphate.
> 
> You want to char the egg shells for calcium. Uncooked for phos.
> 
> ...


Yo bro nice one, have you ever heard of Super magro? May be you ought to look in to it, if you can do this you can make super magro bio fertilizer too buddy, few more process and bit more time but its easy peasy really and since its open source, you ought to be able to find a method and kit list, just got to get the components and hardware which is all basic stuff like tanks and buckets and blah and have the time


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> You dont use an airstone in your res eh?
> 
> Do you alwase keep your res topped up or let it dry out befor adding more to it?
> 
> ...



I let the resi dry out or just get low before adding water. 

I do reuse the soil and box for years. My soil is over 8 or 9 years old. No issues. I add a splash of lab to the resi once a week whether it's time ti fill it or not. Lab or em1 is a bacterial inoculant that kills off pathogens and improves yeilds, growth, and water uptake. Root rot won't happen as long as you add that to the resi.

Lab is lactobacillus and em1 is lactobacillus plus more yeasts and purple non sulfur bacteria.

I don't use air stones. I used to when I first started running sips a few years ago. It makes the roots explode but thats about it. I found keeping it anaerobic produced better results and larger yields and larger buds. With sips we're just trying to mimic nature.

I have high ceilings so height isn't an issue for me. I usually scrog my plants so they just fill out the trellis and maybe end up about 2 - 3 feet above the trellis.


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> So basically I can skip this whole process by simply composting my egg shells? I compost about 1000 eggshells a year, in a final amount of about 6 cubic feet of compost. I use this at a rate of 33% to make my bedding base for the worm bins. thanks



Yes but charring them first to get solubilozing enzymes. Egg shells for calcium and animal bones for phos.


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

Ecompost said:


> Yo bro nice one, have you ever heard of Super magro? May be you ought to look in to it, if you can do this you can make super magro bio fertilizer too buddy, few more process and bit more time but its easy peasy really and since its open source, you ought to be able to find a method and kit list, just got to get the components and hardware which is all basic stuff like tanks and buckets and blah and have the time



Its all in Spanish. I don't read or speak spanish.

I just follow and use.different recipes from Korean natural farming, jadam natural farming, and kyusei natural farming. Which is all basically making biofertz via ferments. Utilizing either sugar, lactobacillus, or leaf mold compost to ferment milk, plants, fruits, grains, egg shells, and or bone meal..


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## projectinfo (Oct 13, 2018)

http://www.gaiagreen.com/livingsoil.html

Instead of starting off cooking soil fora month, with the clackamas coots mix 


Could i just use this and hold off feeding until next round because to many amendments added?

Is there anything wrong with starting off with a hot mix for living soil in soma sip boxes?

I just dont have the space or time to mix my soil for a month and its coming up on winter here .


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## projectinfo (Oct 13, 2018)

Also im trying to figure out the difference between subcools supersoil witha bubch of amendments in it . 

Vs clackamas coots pretty basic and you hust topdress and feed ferments , castings composts more?

After a run with this hot soil, would it be basically a coots mix that i could start following hyroots thread here?


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> http://www.gaiagreen.com/livingsoil.html
> 
> Instead of starting off cooking soil fora month, with the clackamas coots mix
> 
> ...


That will still have to be broken down ie cook. 


You don't want hot soil. It will fry your plants. Making the leaves taco like crazy and slow.growth. 

Coots mix doesn't really run hot because it doesn't have any high nitrogen inputs nor any bone meal. If you add bokashi or grokashi to the soil and spray soil with lab or em1. It will speed up cook time by 2 weeks. Adding red wiggler worms will.speed things up too.


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## hyroot (Oct 13, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Also im trying to figure out the difference between subcools supersoil witha bubch of amendments in it .
> 
> Vs clackamas coots pretty basic and you hust topdress and feed ferments , castings composts more?
> 
> After a run with this hot soil, would it be basically a coots mix that i could start following hyroots thread here?



Subcools super soil is hot mix that is very redundant. It has multiple inputs that have the same elements and minerals which isn't necessary at all either. Subcool never took the time to learn about soil microbiology and what plants can actually uptake. He just regurgitated someone elses recipe as his own.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 13, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> So basically I can skip this whole process by simply composting my egg shells? I compost about 1000 eggshells a year, in a final amount of about 6 cubic feet of compost.


Also you don't need to wait a month, better is longer to a degree, but the cooking time which is just composting/breaking down of amendments has 2 purposes, one to make nutrients available, if you have ewc in your mix you will already have some soluble nutrients that are available enough to get you going. The second reason time is needed is that the compost process heats up the temp of the mix and this would literally burn your roots. 

Im doing a test right now, where I mixed a batch of soil, and because I am all out of mix decided to transplant one plant into it after only 24 hours of it sitting. And its on the richer end of mixes out there.


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## projectinfo (Oct 14, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Use the flesh and skin of the pumpkin. Toss or compost the stem.. The seeds, cook or make an sst or grow more pumpkins.
> 
> EM1 liquid mixed with vegetable and fruits. Then ferment for a week. It will develop into EM2.
> EM2 liquid mixed with bran, brown sugar and rice water and ferment for about a week, it will become EM3.
> ...


 Instead of making labs could you activate em1 and use it the same ?


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## projectinfo (Oct 14, 2018)

I have this, and by the ingredients im guessing its just like em1.

Got it from blackswallow living soils,


----------



## projectinfo (Oct 14, 2018)




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## SSGrower (Oct 14, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> View attachment 4215502 View attachment 4215503
> 
> I have this, and by the ingredients im guessing its just like em1.
> 
> Got it from blackswallow living soils,


I agree, looks like a similar product but since teraganix dosent publish detailed analysis that I'm aware of, hard to make direct comparison.


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## hyroot (Oct 14, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> View attachment 4215502 View attachment 4215503
> 
> I have this, and by the ingredients im guessing its just like em1.
> 
> Got it from blackswallow living soils,


No that has other ingredients than what labs and em1 have. The lactobacillus will out compete all the other bacteria in that bottle.


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## hyroot (Oct 14, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> I agree, looks like a similar product but since teraganix dosent publish detailed analysis that I'm aware of, hard to make direct comparison.


Teraganix has said in the probiotic farmers alliance what the inputs are. I've already said what they are in prior posts. labs, yeasts and purple non sulfur bacteria (pnsb)


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## hyroot (Oct 14, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Instead of making labs could you activate em1 and use it the same ?


Yes you can activate em1 instead of making labs and aem


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## projectinfo (Oct 14, 2018)

hyroot said:


> No that has other ingredients than what labs and em1 have. The lactobacillus will out compete all the other bacteria in that bottle.


 Ah so this bottle is pretty much useless .


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## SSGrower (Oct 14, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Yes you can activate em1 instead of making labs and aem


The purple mitochondrial photosynthetic component is imo one of the most important parts of em1, how can you ensure its survival during activation? I am becoming less a fan of using molasses as a sugar bas and more curious about using purple plant material, particularly plants that exhibit other desireable characteristics. Local variation of em1 achieved through activation? Is it such a thing?


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## hyroot (Oct 14, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> The purple mitochondrial photosynthetic component is imo one of the most important parts of em1, how can you ensure its survival during activation? I am becoming less a fan of using molasses as a sugar bas and more curious about using purple plant material, particularly plants that exhibit other desireable characteristics. Local variation of em1 achieved through activation? Is it such a thing?



Pnsb , lab and yeasts work synergistically.

You can get pnsb in rice wash. The milk will kill it off. After the separation if added it will survive. 

I've heard if you leave lab out in the sun. Pnsb will develop. I haven't tried it. The companies that use pnsb collect it from arctic ponds.

Molasses is just food stock for the microbes and a stabilizer. Water allows more room for microbes to multiply


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## SSGrower (Oct 14, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Ah so this bottle is pretty much useless .


I wouldnt have called it usless until I saw the statment about 100 days harvist interval?
I should have read the whole label before commenting.



hyroot said:


> Pnsb , lab and yeasts work synergistically.
> 
> You can get pnsb in rice wash. The milk will kill it off. After the separation if added it will survive.
> 
> ...


My concern is how does the food source rank on the menu of the available diners? Yeast will hammer molasses and thrive, but does the pnsb feel the same way? As you say they are synergistic. 

Can I just reitterate how much I appreciate you taking the time to post the details thst you have here, recipies and such.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 18, 2018)

JDAM in my mind still=


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## Sidvicious1 (Oct 18, 2018)

Hey guys, I'm useing the rev's true living organics recipee and my question iss after u cook ur soil what should the ppm be of the run offf? I know u just run clean water the whole grow but I just wanted to know if I can check to see if it's to hot before I transplant with it. I have a ppm, ec meter when I did a few runs of DWC.. Ive tested some of the soil and it's running about 1200 ppmm. Just wanted to know if I need to cut it with uncooked organic soill, or peat moss? Thanks for the help guys..


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## Sidvicious1 (Oct 18, 2018)

Here's the mix. also a cup of organic -5-5-5 fert_ and a half cup of gypsum.


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## projectinfo (Oct 18, 2018)

Sidvicious1 said:


> Here's the mix. also a cup of organic -5-5-5 fert_ and a half cup of gypsum.


You made a supersoil subcool mix

Google clackamas coots mix. 
Probiotic, no till


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## hyroot (Oct 18, 2018)

Sidvicious1 said:


> Hey guys, I'm useing the rev's true living organics recipee and my question iss after u cook ur soil what should the ppm be of the run offf? I know u just run clean water the whole grow but I just wanted to know if I can check to see if it's to hot before I transplant with it. I have a ppm, ec meter when I did a few runs of DWC.. Ive tested some of the soil and it's running about 1200 ppmm. Just wanted to know if I need to cut it with uncooked organic soill, or peat moss? Thanks for the help guys..



We don't test the ppm and ph of run off. It's irrelevant to living soil. We're not using salts (phosphates, nitrates, and phosphoric acid). Amendments are in the soil. The microbes feed on the amendments to make them readily available for uptake. The plant feeds what it wants when it wants., The plant is in control. The microbes keep everything in balance. Everything you know about hydro goes out the window. Get rid of that hydro shop mentality. This is natural farming.

You can test ppm's of ferments when feeding with ferments. It's not even necessary. Plants can handle up to 5,000 ppm's of flower power fruit ferments.

I reamend my soil once or twice a year. So all the nutes in the soil should last at least 6 months..


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## Strudelheim (Oct 19, 2018)

Hyroot,

Im coming up on my 3rd run with the same batch of soil, Had mixed results the first two times, and some of the soil wasn't used for a full run either on some plants, as in I killed them halfway through bloom, or just vegged for a month or two and then recycled the soil. So I have added a full dose of amendments almost 3 times, at this point, I am worried that some things might be dangerously high, is that possible? Should I do a soil test to see? Is it common to have too nutrient rich soil, and that this causes major problems? If I add amendments and let them break down for a few months, do a grow that takes some of those, then add more amendments and they break down slowly and become available, can this be bad? I know that nitrogen excess is not good in flower, so I am trying to judge my plants based on how dark green / shiny the leaves are, but other than that and an overall yellow fade in the end of flowering I have no idea what to read my plants on. Im always worried if I am giving them too much nutrients in the soil, or if its not enough. A soil test will give me peace of mind? They all say good compost/humus/ewc is key, but I did a trial run of pure ewc/perlite 50/50 and it went very bad, so I am also worried with my mix, if I have just too much EWC/Compost. What do you base your re amendment amounts on? I know they say full amount first 2-3, and then what? half ?

any insight is appreciated. I am slowly making progress, but still have many questions at this point and am not confident that my plants are thriving, and trying to KIS.

heres my current recipe, i haven't amended with this everytime since the beginning, it has evolved to this over the last year but that is the overall strength.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 19, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Should I do a soil test to see? Is it common to have too nutrient rich soil, and that this causes major problems?


I've been sending my soil to a lab and I have been noticing that it is mostly the micronutrients that are low. It's common for me to be high in phosphorus, so I really limit my P inputs... I was using rock dusts and kelp, but still low in micros. I was like WTF... I've had multiple tests done over the years and micronutrient def is something that I need to pay attention to.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Oct 19, 2018)

Rabbit manure compost. I think that the P was so high that it locked-out some of the micros, I'm still not sure how that works...


----------



## hyroot (Oct 19, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Hyroot,
> 
> Im coming up on my 3rd run with the same batch of soil, Had mixed results the first two times, and some of the soil wasn't used for a full run either on some plants, as in I killed them halfway through bloom, or just vegged for a month or two and then recycled the soil. So I have added a full dose of amendments almost 3 times, at this point, I am worried that some things might be dangerously high, is that possible? Should I do a soil test to see? Is it common to have too nutrient rich soil, and that this causes major problems? If I add amendments and let them break down for a few months, do a grow that takes some of those, then add more amendments and they break down slowly and become available, can this be bad? I know that nitrogen excess is not good in flower, so I am trying to judge my plants based on how dark green / shiny the leaves are, but other than that and an overall yellow fade in the end of flowering I have no idea what to read my plants on. Im always worried if I am giving them too much nutrients in the soil, or if its not enough. A soil test will give me peace of mind? They all say good compost/humus/ewc is key, but I did a trial run of pure ewc/perlite 50/50 and it went very bad, so I am also worried with my mix, if I have just too much EWC/Compost. What do you base your re amendment amounts on? I know they say full amount first 2-3, and then what? half ?
> 
> ...



You have a lot of unnecessary amendments. The bone meals and manures will make the soil run pretty hot. I'd mix it
50/50 with soil that has not been amended. I would water with compost teas and seed sprout tea to break every thing down faster plus add Bokashi and Bokashi will definitely speed up cooking process breaking everything down much faster.

The bone meals and manures and guanos will make the cooking time take longer too




*For my initial soil mix*

_per cubic foot_
1 part ewc / compost, 1 part peat moss, 1 part aeration ( garden pumice)
½ cup kelp meal
½ cup crab shell meal
¼ cup ahimsa indian neem cake
¼ cup karanja cake
1 cup glacial rock dust
1 cup gypsum rock dust
2 cups basalt rock dust

Then I re-amend twice a year with half as much.

*I feed ferments. Each once a week*.
During flower Lab and Flower power FFE

During veg FPJ and Lab

Every 2 - 3 weeks in veg and flower I top dress bokashi and castings and occasionally top dress pureed malted barley.

*Foliar sprays once a week*
During veg and early flower I foliar spray with an alfalfa tea, Lab, Citrus ferment, and aloe. But each one separately.

During transition I foliar spray with wcap ( fermented charred animal bones) and wcp ( fermented charred egg shells).

I also add worms to the soil and have a worm bin and make my own castings. In the bin i feed the worms veggie scraps, alfalfa meal, bokashi, pulverized egg shells and charred animal bones, and left over material from making bubble hash. The bedding is a layered mix of dried leaves and coco.

I also like to use Azos sometimes when watering during veg.

i get all the extra needed micro and macro nutrients from bokashi and ferments


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## Serverchris (Oct 19, 2018)

hyroot said:


> You have a lot of unnecessary amendments. The bone meals and manures will make the soil run pretty hot. I'd mix it
> 50/50 with soil that has not been amended. I would water with compost teas and seed sprout tea to break every thing down faster plus add Bokashi and Bokashi will definitely speed up cooking process breaking everything down much faster.
> 
> The bone meals and manures and guanos will make the cooking time take longer too
> ...


Do you have how to make the ferments posted anywhere? I've been learning organics and surprisingly have come up with a routine really similar to yours misus the ferments but they are definitely something I'd be interested in adding.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 19, 2018)

hyroot said:


> You have a lot of unnecessary amendments. The bone meals and manures will make the soil run pretty hot. I'd mix it
> 50/50 with soil that has not been amended. I would water with compost teas and seed sprout tea to break every thing down faster plus add Bokashi and Bokashi will definitely speed up cooking process breaking everything down much faster.
> 
> The bone meals and manures and guanos will make the cooking time take longer too
> ...



Perfect, thanks for sharing your recipe and feeding schedule. 

I see that mine is almost twice as high in inputs. I was already thinking that on the next run I will do a trial and do one full strenght and one at 50% and compare the two, another trial was to put one plant directly into the mix with no re amendments and see how it does compared to amended. You do many more weekly feedings though, which I have tried not go down that road. Trying to KIS, do a solid rich mix and water only, and woul like to see some decent results first before adding more input. I felt that I have many high quality inputs in an extremely rich(nutrient & Microbial activity) and diverse mix that I should get good results for a couple at least a a solid run without any weekly teas. I just don't want to do weekly teas, when I already have 30% EWC in my mix. And in fact, I did teas and it caused problems on the last run, the mix was so rich, that a compost tea just unleashed so much more activity and nutrients that it was overkill. Im totally down for giving a tea in an older plant that has grown a fair bit in its pot and used up a lot and is showing a nitrogen fade from lower leaves. but I shouldn't have to give teas etc to a new plant just put into a fresh mix thats showing weird deficiences. 

I also don't understand Top dressing, I mean if it takes a few weeks to break down, and I add it in week 3 of flower after the stretch, it becomes abailable in week 6 when I should instead let it fade and use up reserves. If I have 30% ewc in my mix, do I need to add handfuls on top increasing it even more? I add 1 gallon to every cubic foot at time of re amendment. 

Do you do soil tests?


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## hyroot (Oct 19, 2018)

Serverchris said:


> Do you have how to make the ferments posted anywhere? I've been learning organics and surprisingly have come up with a routine really similar to yours misus the ferments but they are definitely something I'd be interested in adding.


start at the beginning of this thread. I have recipes through this whole thread


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## hyroot (Oct 19, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Perfect, thanks for sharing your recipe and feeding schedule.
> 
> I used to get my soil tested. But the place where I took my soil sample sold a few years ago. The new owners stopped doing soil testing right away
> 
> ...


worm castings don't need to break down, They're already as broken down as they can be. They're not like typical animal manure at all,.. Bokashi is grains fermented with labs or em1 among a few other inputs. it produces a mat of mycelium fungi which breaks down organic material very fast. Labs and em1 break down organic material the same way. the castings nd peat in the soil mix get used up by the roots for the most part. You could always just top dress compost instead of ewc. Worms in the soil will feed on the compost. Bokashi will also bioremdiate the soil, removing any heavy metals and pathogenic bacteria.

A fade is essentially a nutrient deficiency. 

I only apply compost tea's when the soil has dried out or if things are out of wack. The tea will balance things out. a seed sprout tea provides enzymes and trace minerals and carbs and strengthens lateral branching. Alfalfa foliar provides macro nutrients and auxins - triacontanol which improves vegative growth withoutr adding too much leaf as if it were amended in the soil. it also improves trichome production and yield, The ferments improve yield, bud size, brix levels (terpenes) and growth. strengthens roots and adds colors to the plants. The pigments in the fruits are broken down into micro nutrients. It makes green more purple and already purple more red and orange. The ferments like rock dusts also improve denisty.


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## hyroot (Oct 19, 2018)

*Benefits of Aloe Vera*

Aloe has amino acids, anthraquinones, ezymes, minerals, vitamins, lignins, monosaccharide, polysaccharides, salicylic acid, saponins, and sterols.

Amino acids found in Aloe vera include: Isoleucine, Leucine, Lysine, Methionine, Phenylalanine, Threonine, Valine,And Tryptophan. Some Of The Other Non-Essential Amino Acids Found In Aloe Vera Include Alanine, Arginine, Asparagine, Cysteine, Glutamic Acid, Glycine, Histidine, Proline, Serine, Tyrosine, Glutamine, And Aspartic Acid.

Enzymes include Amylase, Bradykinase, Catalase, Cellulas, Lipase, Oxidase, Alkaline Phosphatase, Proteolytias, Creatine Phosphokinase and Carboxypeptidase.

Aloe vera also contains Vitamins B1, B2, B3, B5, B6, and B12 along with Choline, Calcium, Magnesium, Zinc, Manganese, Chromium, Selenium, Copper, Iron, Potassium, Silica Phosphorus, And Sodium

Salicylic acid is involved in local and systemic plant defense responses against pathogens. It plays a role during stresses such as drought, chilling, heavy metal toxicity, heat, and osmotic stress.

Aloe suppresses the growth of pathogenic fungi / bacteria. It doesn't kill the beneficial microbes. Think of it like neem in that aspect.


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## Ecompost (Oct 20, 2018)

hyroot said:


> We don't test the ppm and ph of run off. It's irrelevant to living soil. We're not using salts (phosphates, nitrates, and phosphoric acid). Amendments are in the soil. The microbes feed on the amendments to make them readily available for uptake. The plant feeds what it wants when it wants., The plant is in control. The microbes keep everything in balance. Everything you know about hydro goes out the window. Get rid of that hydro shop mentality. This is natural farming.
> 
> You can test ppm's of ferments when feeding with ferments. It's not even necessary. Plants can handle up to 5,000 ppm's of flower power fruit ferments.
> 
> I reamend my soil once or twice a year. So all the nutes in the soil should last at least 6 months..


"The plant feeds what it wants when it wants"
This is always true in any system, even in ones that involve pH, despite what many might imagine reference their ability to talk plant.
In light of the simple reality, it is highly likely none of us even know how the skin cells between our fingers are using the nutrients in our last meal right now, nor do we know for real if the supplemental antioxidants we might consume are having any effect at all, or even if the impacts are good or bad long term, beyond our anecdotes. It is highly unlikely we know what our plants want and when, both in terms of its direct nutrient need and or its symbiosis requirements.
Ergo it can only make sense to try to arrange the things we think today our plants might need, and this is what we all do. Of course plants had a system before we turned up and forced this way or any other and so we are likely more irritating than the presence of sugar in media to a plant .

Molasses plays a huge role in feeding all of us, either in shop brought formats, or in homemade solutions used by small scale farmers all over the world. We and the world need carbohydrates, both simple and complex. Just as we shouldn't live on Snickers bars....so we also shouldnt assume a more complex form of carbohydrate (Chitin or Lignin as examples) does anything more than convert to ATP just as its simpler and more direct relatives do.
Microbes work on different timescales, I fail to understand why there is such a backlash towards sugars! 

Plants have been shown to literally round up colonies of yeasts and bacteria, and predate them directly through a process called Rhizophagy. To add to the arguement plants take what they want when they want, It is the plant that will select the make up of its Biome, not you, me, coots, BAS and or molasses
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180917111527.htm

Does anyone know the perfect ratio of fungus to bacteria for cannabis, does this vary based on location, phenotype, environment and more? Plants, like us, only lack a certain number of aminos so I propose it is likely any plant will only recruit microbes its knows that can construct the sub assemblies essential for the building and acquisition of those aminos it is missing, and or the supporting "infrastructure" this including the mechanisms to up regulate it defensive and or reproductive systems etc

if you are "making soil" / "cooking soil" (I also hate this term because we arent really making sand silt clay etc are we?, we are making, or attempting to create humus through forced decomposistion??) then i guess we have to come to terms with chronology and its role in complexity, after we have fully understood what the perfect rate of decomposition cannabis really likes to grow in?

The younger/ more basic the soil, the higher the rates of microbes which grow first and fastest, eg bacteria, and so in turn the higher the pH through the related accumulation of the BioFilms bacteria secrete, as we go through time, so we might add material, (Lignin) which requires different microbes to process, so we might get fungus for example, as these build and begin to take over, the organic acids they secrete lower pH. This process selects for certain biology.
We might add what we think is food or one type or another, but life happens despite of us, not because of us. Just as a plant can select from a diverse portfolio, so can fungus and there is good and bad in this kingdom too, so we might just be growing conditions for other problems by adding more complex forms of carbohydrate.

I note general rules, good root fungus appears to only party with good (in the moment) root bacteria, where bad fungus, eg fusarium, recruit what might be good microbes,and turn them bad by accident of manipulation. So in the case of fusarium, it will recruit pseudomonas fluorescens a common otherwise helpful non plant pathogen/ PSB, but it wont be for the bacteria's ability to mobilize Phosphorous, it will and can however, hijack p.Fluorescens ability to render Hydrogen peroxide via Super Oxide Dismutase, using what we might use as a good antioxidant, to decontaminate anti-fungicides.

Simply for me, we need to have decomposers, but past this we must have the humifiers. Most of us have the decomposing microbes, but we lack the humifiers, we kill these first with bad practice, and so we are are caught trying to feed a whole, uncut chicken to a baby, whose mouth just cant reach around the whole 2kg at once. Rather than accept our role, we can blame molasses


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## Ecompost (Oct 20, 2018)

In terms of ferments, Simple cow, horse, sheep, goat manure (whatever you can get and know it should be free of antibiotic run off), untreated water, milk, wood ash, molasses. One barrel with a seal able lid, a bucket, a tap to off gas, eg a simple brass tap, pipe and old plastic bottle with water in. Add all the ingredients and ferment out of the sun and temp changes for 30 days. Use at a rate of 2-7L per 100L water. fresher the shit, better the results imo. Of course adding adherents like Aloe or Prickly pear can be added to help application. You can just make this separately and add it to the OG mix before application to crops

eg 
180 litres water
2L Milk
2L Molasses
50KG Fresh Cow Shit
3-5KG Wood Ash or Phosphite

Add manure and ash to 100L water mix well
Using a bucket, mix milk and molasses with 10L water
add this to manure/woodash and mix.
Top up water mix
Seal barrel with a proper lid to start anaerobic fermentation, make sure you have fitted a valve and gas tap to off the gas from the barrel, Hy has a picture above, but a piece of hose approx 1m, 1/2 inch diameter, use a bronze/ copper threaded nipple same diameter as hose, one bottle with water and hook to attach it.
place sealed barrel in stable conditions ideally 30-40C for 20-30 days



You can add other bits to this base mix, including looking at full Super magro type .

You can also make a simple Mineral Mix, or Bordeaux Blend to help with plant problems using say Copper Sulfate, Slaked Lime, Potassium Soap and water
eg 5 ounces of Copper Sufate, 5 ounces of Slaked/Quick Lime, 120grams of KSoap, 4 gallons of water. Scale to meet your need of course.
its all easy stuff
Put the copper in water mix
Dissolve Lime in remaining water and mix
Once mixed separately, add together, adding the Copper to the Lime not the other way round, stir continuously, check pH by putting a small knife or metal in,, its it comes out rusty, add more lime, if not its ready to use. Apply at 2:1

all of this stuff is open source, much of it is formed in a world outside the USA or English speaking nations, or of course we might say those places forced to be innovative based on poverty levels and so on.

good luck and happy growing


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## projectinfo (Oct 20, 2018)

https://www.noblegrape.ca/products/gypsum

All i can find is this powder or pellitized garden gypsum
.. 

The pellitized is wayyy cheaper . Could i just use that or could i put it in a blender for a while?


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> https://www.noblegrape.ca/products/gypsum
> 
> All i can find is this powder or pellitized garden gypsum
> ..
> ...



looks like it's pelletized. Not sure. gypsum pellets are pretty small. I'd turn them into powder / dust to break them down faster. I've used gypsum pellets years ago. They take longer to break down. That was long before I started doing full no till or even knew what no till was. I was recycling soil and using compost back then but I was removing the roots lol.

Gypsum is not completely necessary. The first few years I was running no till i was using just bentonite and basalt rock dusts. Don't use bentonite, that shit clumps up when it gets wet like diatomaceous earth does


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## Bioaccumulator (Oct 20, 2018)

Hyrootu have done an excellent job sharing knowledge base here in this thread. May I ask your thoughts and opinion on this video and Ashley's methods.


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2018)

Bioaccumulator said:


> Hyrootu have done an excellent job sharing knowledge base here in this thread. May I ask your thoughts and opinion on this video and Ashley's methods.



He's making an imo (indigenous micro organisms) Same idea as making bokashi. But using microbes in native soil to ferment and innoculate the rice. I don't do it because I'm in the desert and there's sand everywhere. No woods or anything here. I don't have anywhere to bury a box of rice.

Native soil is a great place to find compost and compost starters


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## Bioaccumulator (Oct 20, 2018)

Wanted to ask before I went out to my flood plain maples,oaks,ash,birch, black cherry woodlands to find a suitable donor.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 20, 2018)

hyroot said:


> The pigments in the fruits are broken down into micro nutrients. It makes green more purple and already purple more red and orange. The ferments like rock dusts also improve denisty.


This is going to be the next thing that I research! You really sparked an interest when you addressed my problem because I have asked quite a few people about a source of micro nutrients and I really get much else than "use Mn and Zn sulfate, but make sure it's chelated". I didn't try it yet, but I heard that I can chelate it with fish hydrolysate(amino acids). Also, I am using a very generous amount of kelp, basalt, and glacial rock dust but my micros would always come back low. I am hoping that the rock dust just needs more time to break down and it will get better with age, but I have had my worst harvests when Mn and Zn were low. I would almost call it crop failure!

Anyways, I'm probably going to have to read your thread completely. I think that I'll have time this weekend to do it... I do have one question though, how would prunes and dates work for a FFJ. From what I read, you want high potassium and sugar. The dates that I have taste like caramel and I know they are high in K.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 20, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I don't do it because I'm in the desert and there's sand everywhere. No woods or anything here.


Grass/weed allergies are killing me right now, I've been joking with my wife about moving to the desert!


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 20, 2018)

I'm fairly new to foliar spraying also, but I kept reading that it is almost mandatory for high brix levels. So, I got some SEA90 because I realize how big of a problem I am having with micronutrients. Steve Solomon had a great take on soil remineralization and he has written books about it and he said that even with a balanced soil, the plant will not be able to take up all of the nutrients that it needs. Sorry for rambling, you just helped me get some of my motivation back!!! I've been dealing with low micros for about 2yrs and I still don't have a good grasp on it yet. It's been having me down.


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2018)

Bioaccumulator said:


> Wanted to ask before I went out to my flood plain maples,oaks,ash,birch, black cherry woodlands to find a suitable donor.


Link to free book in pdf format on knf recipes written by one Cho's students. I don't follow all knf recipes. I do jadam and kyusei recipea too. But for imo i would do the knf version. 



https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs0Or85JXeAhUtJjQIHRGBBIMQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw00MAaJG85N56D6e9Gm_D3e


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Grass/weed allergies are killing me right now, I've been joking with my wife about moving to the desert!


Summers are way too hot to even be outside. I can't even grow anything other than aloe and citrus. Although my blueberry plant (fruit) survived the 110-120 temps. . The rest of the year. We have best weather. All the snowbirds all over the world come here during the winter. Coachella and stage coach weeks suck . That's just because of all the tourists. Lol.


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I'm fairly new to foliar spraying also, but I kept reading that it is almost mandatory for high brix levels. So, I got some SEA90 because I realize how big of a problem I am having with micronutrients. Steve Solomon had a great take on soil remineralization and he has written books about it and he said that even with a balanced soil, the plant will not be able to take up all of the nutrients that it needs. Sorry for rambling, you just helped me get some of my motivation back!!! I've been dealing with low micros for about 2yrs and I still don't have a good grasp on it yet. It's been having me down.



Once you get into using ferments it will be game changer.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 20, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Link to free book in pdf format on knf recipes written by one Cho's students. I don't follow all knf recipes. I do jadam and kyusei recipea too. But for imo i would do the knf version.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs0Or85JXeAhUtJjQIHRGBBIMQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw00MAaJG85N56D6e9Gm_D3e


I have a nice 10gal bucket w/ an air tight lid, just need a spigot now... I've never had a reason to bokashi, so I never got into it.

When I was in Iraq/Kuwait, I daydreamed about living in a forrest. However, last year I started having breathing problems and I finally got an allergy test. It was off the charts for grass/weeds, so a lawn can be over-rated sometimes. I do have composting material, but it comes with a price lol...


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I have a nice 10gal bucket w/ an air tight lid, just need a spigot now... I've never had a reason to bokashi, so I never got into it.
> 
> When I was in Iraq/Kuwait, I daydreamed about living in a forrest. However, last year I started having breathing problems and I finally got an allergy test. It was off the charts for grass/weeds, so a lawn can be over-rated sometimes. I do have composting material, but it comes with a price lol...


Get an air lock for the bucket. Get a painters mask. Regardless of allergies. You do not want to breath in grokashi dust. It will make your chest hurt for a couple days. It makes you feel like a gnarly flu is coming on. It goes away after 3 days of breathing it in. It happened to me twice. You can't smoke or vape either.

I'm sure the middle east desert was a lot hotter than here. A lot of old people retire out here because of the dry heat and being able to breathe better. Average humidity here is 15% . So 85 - 90 degrees here feels like 75 at the beach. Its windy here a lot too. 5 - 15 mph winds on average. With the occasional 30- 50Mph winds and sand storms. Thats just when the santa ana winds come through.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 20, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Get a painters mask. Regardless of allergies. You do not want to breath in grokashi dust.


I got one with carbon filters. I was actually using it today because I am screening a couple of bags of peat... I can probably get started on the FFJ right away. I will have to read about bokashi and what kind of grains to get, I have 80lbs of barley, but I'm sure that it is not right for bokashi. I'll probabaly look into buying a bokashi bucket, there not that expensive.


hyroot said:


> I'm sure the middle east desert was a lot hotter than here. A lot of old people retire out here because of the dry heat and being able to breathe better. Average humidity here is 15% . So 85 - 90 degrees here feels like 75 at the beach. Its windy here a lot too. 5 - 15 mph winds on average. With the occasional 30- 50Mph winds and sand storms. Thats just when the santa ana winds come through.


Baghdad got past 110F but it was a dry heat, like a blow dryer. I was stationed at Ft. Hood, Tx and there was not a big difference really. Tx was humid, so it actually felt hotter @ 103F than Iraq at 112F. I also spent about 7 weeks at Ft. Irwin, Ca during the hottest part July-Aug. That was probably the worst, but that was because we were training. I was in the infantry, so we were road marching in chemical gear and gas masks. My trip to Cali was not a pleasant one.


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## hyroot (Oct 20, 2018)

Check out horse feed shops for red flake wheat grains. I pay $11 for 25 lbs of red wheat. 1 pound of bokashi lasts me one entire grow. 

I don't do the ffj. I do the lacto based ffe (kyusei recipe) . The recipe is earlier in this thread. I I get better results with the lacto vased5 flower power ffe than an ffj. . To each their own.

But i do make fpj's for veg though.


I lived in Shreveport Lousiana for a couple summers when I was 12 and 13. So i know all about high humidity.


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## projectinfo (Oct 20, 2018)

hyroot said:


> looks like it's pelletized. Not sure. gypsum pellets are pretty small. I'd turn them into powder / dust to break them down faster. I've used gypsum pellets years ago. They take longer to break down. That was long before I started doing full no till or even knew what no till was. I was recycling soil and using compost back then but I was removing the roots lol.
> 
> Gypsum is not completely necessary. The first few years I was running no till i was using just bentonite and basalt rock dusts. Don't use bentonite, that shit clumps up when it gets wet like diatomaceous earth does


 Where do you get your gypsum? 

The brew store or the garden store ?

The brew store sells powder gypsum

The garden stores around here only sell pelletized or lime and shit like that .

Il just order from the brew store. 5/lb.

Il let ya know how many cups per lb. Im guessing maybe two. 

Im thinking 20gal soma sips and two plants per box .


You say one cup per cu ft. 
So a little over two cups per box. 

Im making Ten boxes so. 20cups
10lb

50$

Is what it is i suppose. Cannada is slackin on the easly findable amendments haha


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## DankTankerous (Oct 21, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Summers are way too hot to even be outside. I can't even grow anything other than aloe and citrus. Although my blueberry plant (fruit) survived the 110-120 temps. . The rest of the year. We have best weather. All the snowbirds all over the world come here during the winter. Coachella and stage coach weeks suck . That's just because of all the tourists. Lol.


I was just near Coachella in Moreno Beach Valley for desert Daze. It was quite the clusterfuck.

Since you’re in the desert, do you do IMO’s? I’m not in the desert, but the humidity here is too low to do IMO’s I would like to, do you suggest something else or a better way to do it?


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## Ecompost (Oct 21, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> This is going to be the next thing that I research! You really sparked an interest when you addressed my problem because I have asked quite a few people about a source of micro nutrients and I really get much else than "use Mn and Zn sulfate, but make sure it's chelated". I didn't try it yet, but I heard that I can chelate it with fish hydrolysate(amino acids). Also, I am using a very generous amount of kelp, basalt, and glacial rock dust but my micros would always come back low. I am hoping that the rock dust just needs more time to break down and it will get better with age, but I have had my worst harvests when Mn and Zn were low. I would almost call it crop failure!
> 
> Anyways, I'm probably going to have to read your thread completely. I think that I'll have time this weekend to do it... I do have one question though, how would prunes and dates work for a FFJ. From what I read, you want high potassium and sugar. The dates that I have taste like caramel and I know they are high in K.


Yes well Mn is a critical micro, it increases sugar content, chlorophyll content and the solidity of the protein bond. It improves the sugar flow back and reinforces plant respiration efficiency. it is a crucial constituent part of the enzyme hydroxylamine-reductase which generates the hydroxylamine reaction to produce ammonia, and the assimilation enzyme that performs carbon dioxide reduction during photosynthesis. Mn plays an important role in activating many reactions. I think last count was 23 known complexes of meta-enzymes that are activated by Mn in plants. Mn also plays a role in the mechanisms behind indoleacetic acid as a cell growth activator. It also support P transport and it increases the power of the plant tissues to retain water during stress. defs result in weakened growth for sure through wide-scale nutrient imbalance.
Same for Zn, necessary in DNA polymerase, it is essential part for many enzymes that act at a metabolic level (auxins/ nucleic acids) More than 30 enzymes are linked to Zn as well as around 20 metallic enzyme complexes in plants, defs of Zn result in reduced sugars, saccharose, starch, and accumulations of organic acids reducing auxin content. It also reduces by 2 to 3 times the rate of cell division, eg a def delays growth
The problems with defs is they are often a manifestation of reciprocal relations of existing minerals in solution, in the soil or plant plasma eg Compounds. EG again a lack of K will likely result also in a lack of B and we also see a reduction in the availability of P, even if these things are not deficient in the soil solution et al. On the other hand a lack of K causes a false Ca/Mg excess, causing Mg defs. Boron is linked to Copper which is linked to plant rigidity, copper contributes to Mn and Zn availability and so on, so a lack of Boron might show as a lack of Copper which might show as a lack of Mn and Zn, ergo lies the problems of all plant nutrition and why i hate def guides


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 21, 2018)

Ecompost said:


> Yes well Mn is a critical micro, it increases sugar content, chlorophyll content and the solidity of the protein bond.


I have been trying to keep up with this author named Steve Solomon. He was on a podcast and he was saying stuff that I felt was directed at me. He mentioned that cannabis is very sensitive to Mn def and that there is not a good source of Mn except for Mn sulfate. He suggested to use a chelated version, but he stopped there. I pretty much had crop failure with that 1st soil test that I shown, the one low in Mn and Zn, one of my worst harvest ever and that is counting my hydro days too...
Another thing that I picked up regarding soil tests is that cannabis needs 2x the amount of K shown on soil tests. That don't sound like that big of a deal, unless you are trying to get your base saturation by the books! I decided that these soil tests are really to show you where you are messing up and will let you know about tox/def issues. Now that I know that I have a reoccurring micro def, I probably won't need to continue testing. However, I did have a test done last week that I am still unsure how to fix. I went to fix the lack of Zn, Cu, and Mn and I kind of over shot the Zn but nailed the Mn and Cu. I don't think that I will have a problem from them, but my B was very low. I'm nervous about adding borax because I keep reading that it is a very narrow margin of error, like you need 1-2ppm but 4ppm is toxic. I'm dealing with 30x 8gal pots and my tea brewer is 30gal, so I wanted to add a gallon of borax water to each pot. When I mixed the Cu, Zn, and Mn sulfate I used about 1/3cup for 240gal of soil.
 
The Ph is low and Na and S are high, but that is just running water through the pots. I don't have these planted BTW. I have clones in this soil but they are in quart size pots and they seem to be doing very well, like they don't even care about the B def. I feel like I should be using metric for you instead of American measurements. 
Anyways, I hope Hyroot is right and I'll just start using probitiotics for trace elements instead of chasing this stuff with sulfates!


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 21, 2018)

hyroot said:


> start at the beginning of this thread. I have recipes through this whole thread


I started reading the beginning of the thread and got caught up in your Youtube videos! I watched the 1st one and noticed that you had more. I get side-tracked so easily...


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 21, 2018)

I don't know how deep this marketing scam goes for growing supplies, but Tad Hussey and Steve Solomon said that rock dust/kelp is inadequate for trace elements and recommended BioMin Booster 153. After talking to Tad Hussey, I felt like it was just a ploy so I bought SEA90 instead for 1/3 of the cost. @Ecompost taught me what chelated meant, and the product didn't look so appealing. It's just so hard to tell heads from tales when the "Experts" are trying their hardest to make a buck off of growers. Mixing truth with lies...

https://www.kisorganics.com/products/biomin-booster-153


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 21, 2018)

hyroot said:


> A fade is essentially a nutrient deficiency.


In my experience with test results, mine has been a fade due to chlorosis from micro def but it always looked like a N def. Gardeners call it "Iron Chlorosis" and they say that it is usually from phosphorus in high levels. Sorry from rambling...


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## hyroot (Oct 21, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I don't know how deep this marketing scam goes for growing supplies, but Tad Hussey and Steve Solomon said that rock dust/kelp is inadequate for trace elements and recommended BioMin Booster 153. After talking to Tad Hussey, I felt like it was just a ploy so I bought SEA90 instead for 1/3 of the cost. @Ecompost taught me what chelated meant, and the product didn't look so appealing. It's just so hard to tell heads from tales when the "Experts" are trying their hardest to make a buck off of growers. Mixing truth with lies...
> 
> https://www.kisorganics.com/products/biomin-booster-153



Theres minerals in salt water and salt. I even add a little himilayan salt when making bokashi. 

For bokashi i use red wheat, lab concentrate, molasses, photosynthesis plus and himilayan salt. I get plenty of micros from bokashi. Including plenty of mn.


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## hyroot (Oct 21, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> In my experience with test results, mine has been a fade due to chlorosis from micro def but it always looked like a N def. Gardeners call it "Iron Chlorosis" and they say that it is usually from phosphorus in high levels. Sorry from rambling...


If you add charred animal bones to compost or worm bins. You will get phos solubilizing bacteria. Much cheaper than mammoth p. Lol.


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## hyroot (Oct 21, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I started reading the beginning of the thread and got caught up in your Youtube videos! I watched the 1st one and noticed that you had more. I get side-tracked so easily...


I'm going to start making videos again soon. Mostly ferment videos. I will do some garden videos showing my own genetics in 2019. Probably start that in February.


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## hyroot (Oct 21, 2018)

Last day before harvest of my genetics. They went 9 weeks. 

Bermuda Breath from seed - benevolence x mendo breath f1



Highland breath 1st gen clones - benevolence x oaxacan highland gold mexican landrace

This could go probably go 70 days


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## projectinfo (Oct 21, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I'm going to start making videos again soon. Mostly ferment videos. I will do some garden videos showing my own genetics in 2019. Probably start that in February.


Yeeeaaahh more vids !!


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## wompaa (Oct 21, 2018)

great thread iv learnt a lot already, im slowely moving over to this shit, never knew dolamite is useless and takes 1 year to break down ... are u sure about this @hyroot ?


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## Strudelheim (Oct 21, 2018)

I think its the magnesium that takes a year or more to become fully available. the calcium not so long and the buffer effect is sooner, else they wouldn't put it in with peat to raise ph, and they say 1-2 weeks after its been wetted.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 21, 2018)

wompaa said:


> great thread iv learnt a lot already, im slowely moving over to this shit, never knew dolamite is useless and takes 1 year to break down ... are u sure about this @hyroot ?


The useless part is very true! Why use an inferior rock dust when you could get a boost in micronutrients to go with the magnesium. Basalt and Glacial rock dusts have more going on. Dolomite is just Ca and Mg and that is pretty much it.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 21, 2018)

hyroot said:


> If you add charred animal bones to compost or worm bins. You will get phos solubilizing bacteria. Much cheaper than mammoth p. Lol.


Damn, I feel like you are giving me more homework lol... I was trying to think of creative ways to lower the amount of phosphorus in my compost and the best idea that I came up with was composting mushrooms like "Garden Giants". From what I understand, mushroom are high in phosphorus so I kind of put 2 and 2 together. I started a pure leaf compost almost exactly a year ago, but it still has a ways to go and composting mushrooms seem like a good idea anyways. The pure leaf mold is for fungi anyway. I gave away my rabbits on Craigslist for free. I wasn't impressed with the super high P #'s.


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## Ecompost (Oct 22, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I have been trying to keep up with this author named Steve Solomon. He was on a podcast and he was saying stuff that I felt was directed at me. He mentioned that cannabis is very sensitive to Mn def and that there is not a good source of Mn except for Mn sulfate. He suggested to use a chelated version, but he stopped there. I pretty much had crop failure with that 1st soil test that I shown, the one low in Mn and Zn, one of my worst harvest ever and that is counting my hydro days too...
> Another thing that I picked up regarding soil tests is that cannabis needs 2x the amount of K shown on soil tests. That don't sound like that big of a deal, unless you are trying to get your base saturation by the books! I decided that these soil tests are really to show you where you are messing up and will let you know about tox/def issues. Now that I know that I have a reoccurring micro def, I probably won't need to continue testing. However, I did have a test done last week that I am still unsure how to fix. I went to fix the lack of Zn, Cu, and Mn and I kind of over shot the Zn but nailed the Mn and Cu. I don't think that I will have a problem from them, but my B was very low. I'm nervous about adding borax because I keep reading that it is a very narrow margin of error, like you need 1-2ppm but 4ppm is toxic. I'm dealing with 30x 8gal pots and my tea brewer is 30gal, so I wanted to add a gallon of borax water to each pot. When I mixed the Cu, Zn, and Mn sulfate I used about 1/3cup for 240gal of soil.
> View attachment 4219246
> The Ph is low and Na and S are high, but that is just running water through the pots. I don't have these planted BTW. I have clones in this soil but they are in quart size pots and they seem to be doing very well, like they don't even care about the B def. I feel like I should be using metric for you instead of American measurements.
> Anyways, I hope Hyroot is right and I'll just start using probitiotics for trace elements instead of chasing this stuff with sulfates!


The probio still needs a mineral to be present buddy, they dont pull it out of the arses. may be you might add a calcareous content so improve the pH in favour of Boron? This way when you amend it, you wont just fizz it out with acid?
have you tried just adding the Boron as a foliar? I would think about this. You might make a mineral brew to help, so anaerobic fermentation ahead of application, so introducing the microbes at the same time?
So I have a mix I use on my afalfa which uses lots of Boron, but this is essential since its for fodder which cant make its own Tryptophan, so needs to be high quality. I have a big farm so use big scales, and i am European so i use metric but you can convert it online, here you go.. scale this down to meet you need, give yourself time

Water 700L
Whey 150L
Fresh Cow Dung 100 Kilos
Molasses 20L
Stone Meal or Wood Ash 15 Kilos
Borax 20 Kilos
Brewers yeast 500grams

fermentation is min 30 days
application is 2/3L per 100L water
I add a adherent mix which is just prickly pear based, but aloe or even molasses will work here. Apply only to the above ground parts of the plant

Alternatively, i use a mix for flowering and recent fruiting plants

Water 180L
Fresh Dung 20 Kilos
Molasses 2 Kilos
Milk or Whey 2L
SRP 900 grams
Potassium Sulphate 400 grams
Borax 180 grams
Sulphocalcium brew 0.9L
vitamin E 7grams

fermentation is 30 days and method is super magro -)

Anyone who cant get the Sulphates can use wood ash and stone meal. You can also save on water by crushing stem like plant material but this is another discussion.

The supho mix is
Sulphur dust 20 Kilos
Lime 10 Kilos
bring this to boil in water for 30-45 minutes, thus forming Lime sulphur


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## Ecompost (Oct 22, 2018)

wompaa said:


> great thread iv learnt a lot already, im slowely moving over to this shit, never knew dolamite is useless and takes 1 year to break down ... are u sure about this @hyroot ?


not if you add it to Sulphur dust water and boil it first


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## Ecompost (Oct 22, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> In my experience with test results, mine has been a fade due to chlorosis from micro def but it always looked like a N def. Gardeners call it "Iron Chlorosis" and they say that it is usually from phosphorus in high levels. Sorry from rambling...


a lack of Mn will for sure cause chlorosis...got any thermal vents near you? I saw water from hot springs being used in the Andes to replace sulphates. The water is at rest/ ambient before they use it but it was being sprayed on a wide range of crops with awesome results.


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## hyroot (Oct 22, 2018)

wompaa said:


> great thread iv learnt a lot already, im slowely moving over to this shit, never knew dolamite is useless and takes 1 year to break down ... are u sure about this @hyroot ?



It takes a year minimum to break down. It has the wrong ratio of mag to cal that you want. It has too much mag. The only thing dole lime is good for is keeping away snails.
You could use various rock dusts and oyster shell flour that are all soluble.


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## SSGrower (Oct 22, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I'm going to start making videos again soon. Mostly ferment videos. I will do some garden videos showing my own genetics in 2019. Probably start that in February.


Please post links for these when you do.


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## hyroot (Oct 22, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> Please post links for these when you do.


Just look up Hyroot Pharms on you tube and subscribe to my channel


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## projectinfo (Oct 24, 2018)

hyroot said:


> My soil mix - coots mix adjusted
> 
> Equal parts peat moss, wormcastings / compost and garden pumice.
> 
> ...


You say 15gal minimum. 

How many plants do you put in a tote that size . 

And how many in a 25gal

How tall would you veg these . Or just flower when you cover the tote with veg basically? Sog style.


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## projectinfo (Oct 24, 2018)

https://www.calculatorsoup.com/calculators/construction/tank.php

This is great to figure out how big to build the boxes


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## hyroot (Oct 24, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> You say 15gal minimum.
> 
> How many plants do you put in a tote that size .
> 
> ...


I 5 gal - 1 plant

30 gal - 2 plants. 

With seeds i aim for at least 2 females. I usually get half males sometimes more.


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## projectinfo (Oct 24, 2018)

How deep should the soil be 18"?


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## projectinfo (Oct 24, 2018)

For a soma sip. Ply wood and metal corners. 

Panda film

Res 
Filter fabric
Chickenwire
@hyroot mix
Pipe in the corner for ferments and water


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## DankTankerous (Oct 24, 2018)

@hyroot the pH of my soil is at 7.5, because I over amended it gave it too many pH buffers as well as biochar . It has been in that soil for 2 months and was getting rainwater waterings for a while. I top dressed it with 2 cups of used coffee grinds but the pH is still off. How can I take it down?


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## DankTankerous (Oct 24, 2018)

Here is the soil recipe
2gal Vermisoil 

VermiSoil™ Premium Potting Soil is designed as a complete growing medium for heavy fruiting and flowering plants.

VermiSoil’s diverse fibrous content stems from Grower’s White Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, low salt coco coir and Vermicrop’s own CocoNot.


*List of ingredients:*


The base is built with core humic ingredients: VermiGreen (thermophilic OMRI compost) and VermiWorm (_Eisenia foetida_ worm castings)
Fortifed with fossilized kelp and inoculated it with endo and ecto mycorrhizae
Other ingredients include oyster flour, greensand, feather meal, blood meal, bone meal and bat guano
2gal Black Gold Organic and N atural Potting Soil

Canadian Sphagnum Peat Moss, Composted or Aged Bark, Compost, Earthworm Castings, RESiLIENCE®, Horticultural Grade Perlite, Pumice, or Cinders, Organic Grade Fertilizer

1/2 gal BioChar
1/2 gal Perlite 
5 tbsp Alfalfa Meal
5 tbsp Oyster Shell
1/2 gal premium Worm Castings

Top dressed with Worm Castings and Cedar Mulch


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## hyroot (Oct 24, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> @hyroot the pH of my soil is at 7.5, because I over amended it gave it too many pH buffers as well as biochar . It has been in that soil for 2 months and was getting rainwater waterings for a while. I top dressed it with 2 cups of used coffee grinds but the pH is still off. How can I take it down?



Water with lab or em1. Then water with a compost tea. Top dressing bokashi and malted barley would work too.


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## DankTankerous (Oct 25, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Water with lab or em1. Then water with a compost tea. Top dressing bokashi and malted barley would work too.


I don’t have access to any of those things, I’m planning on making lab, but that would take a month. What do you think about the em1 that build a soil sells? Would it be better to buy the bokashi and malted barley?


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## Strudelheim (Oct 25, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> I don’t have access to any of those things, I’m planning on making lab, but that would take a month. What do you think about the em1 that build a soil sells? Would it be better to buy the bokashi and malted barley?


Elemental sulphur lowers ph as well. I would say your best bet though is maybe cut the mix with some peat moss which has ph of 5 ish. Then re amend with ph neutral ingredients. Coffee grinds don't lower ph, if they are used coffee grind they are close to neutral already and don't have any acidifying effect. Don't water with hard water as this has high alkalinity and will raise ph. Replace dolomite lime with gypsum as this doesn't raise ph. Oyster shells is calcium carbonate and also raises ph. I don't know anything about bokashi (other than that it is low ph) or malted barley to say how effective they are at lowering ph through the whole medium.


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## hyroot (Oct 25, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> I don’t have access to any of those things, I’m planning on making lab, but that would take a month. What do you think about the em1 that build a soil sells? Would it be better to buy the bokashi and malted barley?


Gypsum will lower ph
vinegar or citrus will lower ph. 1 tbsp per gallon.
Used coffee grounds will lower ph.
Molasses will lower ph.
Aloe juice will lower ph..
Rain water will lower ph..

Em1 would be faster acting. And not affect microbes.. You can order it from build a soil or teraganix. You can get bokashi from either of them too. Check amazon too. They both have amazon stores.

Malted barley you can get at any beer supply for a $1 - $2 a pound


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## DankTankerous (Oct 25, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Gypsum will lower ph
> vinegar or citrus will lower ph. 1 tbsp per gallon.
> Used coffee grounds will lower ph.
> Molasses will lower ph.
> ...


I ordered Kashi blend and Malted Barley Grain from Build a Soil. I just want to nip it in the bud, this whole ordeal has had me on hold for a few weeks now. How much should I top dress with either? The plant is in either a 5 or 7 gallon


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## hyroot (Oct 25, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> I ordered Kashi blend and Malted Barley Grain from Build a Soil. I just want to nip it in the bud, this whole ordeal has had me on hold for a few weeks now. How much should I top dress with either? The plant is in either a 5 or 7 gallon


Just cast a thin layer. Water in. Cover with mulch. Once mycelium mat develops (1-2 days) top dress compost or castings. Then cover with more mulch. Or you can pull back the mulch then re- cover with same mulch after top dress.


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## DankTankerous (Oct 25, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Just cast a thin layer. Water in. Cover with mulch. Once mycelium mat develops (1-2 days) top dress compost or castings. Then cover with more mulch. Or you can pull back the mulch then re- cover with same mulch after top dress.


Top dress castings over the mulch? I use barley hay as mulch


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## Strudelheim (Oct 25, 2018)

Do not want to hijack your thread, its yours, and I appreciate the lessons and info you are sharing, when you say coffee grinds lower ph, what are basing that statement on. Have you done side by side tests and extensively and precisely monitored and logged PH data? 

I would hope with the amount of information you are sharing, that it is deeply researched and experienced with no bias on your part and your not just spitting whatever techniques have simply worked for you so they must be. 






Also from what I have read Gypsum will not have an effect on soil PH, are you assuming that because it has sulfur in it? Because the form the sulfur is in, it does not lower ph, the way elemental sulfur for example does. Without getting too deep into the chemistry that is what I have learned, if you know more than me on that I would love to hear it.


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## DankTankerous (Oct 25, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Elemental sulphur lowers ph as well. I would say your best bet though is maybe cut the mix with some peat moss which has ph of 5 ish. Then re amend with ph neutral ingredients. Coffee grinds don't lower ph, if they are used coffee grind they are close to neutral already and don't have any acidifying effect. Don't water with hard water as this has high alkalinity and will raise ph. Replace dolomite lime with gypsum as this doesn't raise ph. Oyster shells is calcium carbonate and also raises ph. I don't know anything about bokashi (other than that it is low ph) or malted barley to say how effective they are at lowering ph through the whole medium.


Do you mean cutting the recipe in half? Or repotting the plant? I am going to try some methods before I rip half of the root ball out of the soil and repot it in better soil


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## hyroot (Oct 25, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Do not want to hijack your thread, its yours, and I appreciate the lessons and info you are sharing, when you say coffee grinds lower ph, what are basing that statement on. Have you done side by side tests and extensively and precisely monitored and logged PH data?
> 
> I would hope with the amount of information you are sharing, that it is deeply researched and experienced with no bias on your part and your not just spitting whatever techniques have simply worked for you so they must be.
> 
> ...


From experience. I use gypsum rock dust to lower ph for blueberry (fruits) plants after being told to try that by Jeremy at bas.... Used coffee grounds always invites pot worms into my worm bins which is a sign of low ph... Used coffee grounds have to be rinsed thoroughly to remove fatty acids which are supposed to be soluble but they don't end up in the liquid coffee. I used Columbian grounds. I think it still lowers ph from what I've seen. I stopped adding it to worm bins last year.

I had to add a bunch of pulverized egg shells to get rid of the pot worms.


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## hyroot (Oct 25, 2018)

https://content.ces.ncsu.edu/extension-gardener-handbook/17-organic-gardening#organic


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## Strudelheim (Oct 26, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> Do you mean cutting the recipe in half? Or repotting the plant? I am going to try some methods before I rip half of the root ball out of the soil and repot it in better soil


 yeah sorry I thought you were dealing with soil mixed in a bin or something. just listen to hyroot, I got no clue!


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Link to free book in pdf format on knf recipes written by one Cho's students. I don't follow all knf recipes. I do jadam and kyusei recipea too. But for imo i would do the knf version.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://ilcasia.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/chos-global-natural-farming-sarra.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjs0Or85JXeAhUtJjQIHRGBBIMQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw00MAaJG85N56D6e9Gm_D3e


Man, I am in the middle of remodeling my house. I had a veteran's volunteer group from HomeDepot come and install windows for free, but it is eating up all of my free time. They barley started on a bathroom and I am going to have to finish it. Anyways, I think that my LABs got tossed out on accident, probably by a volunteer. No biggie, I ordered EM1 today. I keep trying to read about JADAM and KNF but I mostly get articles that explain WHY to do it and not HOW...


hyroot said:


> Use the flesh and skin of the pumpkin. Toss or compost the stem.. The seeds, cook or make an sst or grow more pumpkins.
> 
> EM1 liquid mixed with vegetable and fruits. Then ferment for a week. It will develop into EM2.
> EM2 liquid mixed with bran, brown sugar and rice water and ferment for about a week, it will become EM3.
> ...


This is where I start to get lost, I don't know what each one is for EM1, EM2, Etc.. Comfrey is one of the things that I want to focus on next. I have plenty of room to have aloe and comfrey on the side...


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Where to get the ingredients
> 
> Wheat bran or rice bran can be purchased at any co-op or grain/feed supply store. A 50-pound bag of wheat bran usually costs about $15 (plus tax). The molasses can be purchased at a feed store or in any grocery store in the baking section (near the sugars). A quart of molasses is usually about $5. Blackstrap, cane, or feed molasses are what you want. Other sugars can be used, but require recipe changes to accommodate for lack of sugar and minerals and are not as stable during fermentation.
> 
> ...


Do you use this as a top-dress or is it just a precursor to another step, like a bokashi bucket? Don't get mad at me, I'm trying here lol...


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## projectinfo (Oct 27, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Man, I am in the middle of remodeling my house. I had a veteran's volunteer group from HomeDepot come and install windows for free, but it is eating up all of my free time. They barley started on a bathroom and I am going to have to finish it. Anyways, I think that my LABs got tossed out on accident, probably by a volunteer. No biggie, I ordered EM1 today. I keep trying to read about JADAM and KNF but I mostly get articles that explain WHY to do it and not HOW...
> 
> This is where I start to get lost, I don't know what each one is for EM1, EM2, Etc.. Comfrey is one of the things that I want to focus on next. I have plenty of room to have aloe and comfrey on the side...


 Theres alot of good videos on youtube. 

Hyrootpharms - howto make labs

Just search in youtube any of the following 

:how to make labs
How to make em1
How to make sst
How to make fpj
Knf methods 
Christ trump has alot of simple videos out. 

If you cant find how to videos, theres something wrong lol


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## projectinfo (Oct 27, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Man, I am in the middle of remodeling my house. I had a veteran's volunteer group from HomeDepot come and install windows for free, but it is eating up all of my free time. They barley started on a bathroom and I am going to have to finish it. Anyways, I think that my LABs got tossed out on accident, probably by a volunteer. No biggie, I ordered EM1 today. I keep trying to read about JADAM and KNF but I mostly get articles that explain WHY to do it and not HOW...
> 
> This is where I start to get lost, I don't know what each one is for EM1, EM2, Etc.. Comfrey is one of the things that I want to focus on next. I have plenty of room to have aloe and comfrey on the side...


 Go to the start of this thread and read the whole thing hyroot explains alot


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## projectinfo (Oct 27, 2018)

Also this should help buddy

https://themodern.farm/intro/


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## projectinfo (Oct 27, 2018)

If you read his soil mix youll see he adds it into the soil and thrn every two weeks top dress.


Go read the thread try harder



MustangStudFarm said:


> Do you use this as a top-dress or is it just a precursor to another step, like a bokashi bucket? Don't get mad at me, I'm trying here lol...


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## Strudelheim (Oct 27, 2018)

So random question, apologize if its been covered but I have a feeling it hasn't. What makes any of the ferment recipes superior as an organic input, afterall, isnt fermenting/bokashi, just another way nature breaks things down, so how is it superior to compost or castings? Even a compost tea is pointless if you have really good soil with 30%+ EWC and lots of top dresses/ worms.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

hyroot said:


> 10 gal is fine for mothers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


OK, so this explains a little. I'm not set-up for SIP. I have 8gal square pots and I'm going to have to work with them until I see another Harvey or two. How would I use this stuff if I am not adding it to a reservoir?


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## projectinfo (Oct 27, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> So random question, apologize if its been covered but I have a feeling it hasn't. What makes any of the ferment recipes superior as an organic input, afterall, isnt fermenting/bokashi, just another way nature breaks things down, so how is it superior to compost or castings? Even a compost tea is pointless if you have really good soil with 30%+ EWC and lots of top dresses/ worms.


 Diversity is key, and you want a balance of fungal and bacterial cultures in your soil.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> If you read his soil mix youll see he adds it into the soil and thrn every two weeks top dress.
> 
> 
> Go read the thread try harder


Go look for your gypsum and be quiet!!! I'm on page 10 and I've watched his videos. I'm not trying to get spoon fed like some members on here!


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Diversity is key, and you want a balance of fungal and bacterial cultures in your soil.


Really, I'm blocking you now. You turned into an expert over night, right?


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## projectinfo (Oct 27, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> OK, so this explains a little. I'm not set-up for SIP. I have 8gal square pots and I'm going to have to work with them until I see another Harvey or two. How would I use this stuff if I am not adding it to a reservoir?


 You would need to add it to your resevoir to


MustangStudFarm said:


> Go look for your gypsum and be quiet!!! I'm on page 10 and I've watched his videos. I'm not trying to get spoon fed like some members on here!


Lol trying to help, whatever dude.

Labs goes in the res to take up space /food of the bad anaerobes so they cant get established. Thats why you add it every week. 

If your not making a sip, then you can use it as a foliar and water it in.

But yeah for sips it keeps the res from going rotten.


Go ahead block me .


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> So random question, apologize if its been covered but I have a feeling it hasn't. What makes any of the ferment recipes superior as an organic input, afterall, isnt fermenting/bokashi, just another way nature breaks things down, so how is it superior to compost or castings? Even a compost tea is pointless if you have really good soil with 30%+ EWC and lots of top dresses/ worms.


My compost and castings has a really high phosphorus count, like 15x too high. At the same time, it really doesn't cover micro/trace elements. I'm not trying to answer your question, but add to it maybe??? I have a very similar question. I was getting chlorosis even with a healthy amount of compost.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

Also, Clackamas admits that he uses 2yr old leaf mold in his worm bin. That could be a major piece that I am missing...


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Go ahead block me .


I did, but I'll give you another chance... Fair warning though, I'll only take advice from Hyroot and DonTesla. I feel that they have been practicing this for years and I've been on the side-line fooling around with soil tests w/o many answers. Sure, soil tests show me what is missing but it don't tell me how to fix it.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 27, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Diversity is key, and you want a balance of fungal and bacterial cultures in your soil.


but the fungi and bacteria do balance out, on already. There are millions of each in every table spoon of rich soil, and they are not just there for no reason, the diversity and amount of each is there for specific reasons because they have there own food and life cycles. The plant has an influence on this as will through its exudates. At this point we (scientists/biologists) don't even fully understand what is going in soil just yet.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> At this point we (scientists/biologists) don't even fully understand what is going in soil just yet.


Right! That is why folks like Clackamas Coots are making their own discoveries like barley enzymes. Hell, Jeff Lowenfels admits that science has not caught up to farming practices yet and they don't even know why Neem works the way that it does, they haven't figure shit out yet.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 27, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I did, but I'll give you another chance... Fair warning though, I'll only take advice from Hyroot and DonTesla. I feel that they have been practicing this for years and I've been on the side-line fooling around with soil tests w/o many answers. Sure, soil tests show me what is missing but it don't tell me how to fix it.


I would say don't take advice from anyone really, just do your own thing, and do side by sides, on every grow. Only way to learn yourself andmake progess. its all about the journey. Now I have heard your high phosphorous thing like 10x, no offense, but even though your soil test says that, doesn't mean that its 100% causing the problem you are having. Soil tests are a small part of the picture, and many amazing growers get amazing results and have never done one.


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## Strudelheim (Oct 27, 2018)

Im doing a side by side on all my grows for the next 3 months where I have the same strain and clone, and I do 1 in 100% strength mix, 1 cut with 50% promix, and one in pro mix with Pure blend pro nutrients. I will even do a 4th plant with my outdoor vegetable garden soil that has been serving my veggies great for 3 years with not a damn thing done to it. After that round of tests when I find a mix that is good, then I will do side by side tests with ferments/SST's/EWC compost teas/Top dresses, and see what all these extras amount to.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 27, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Now I have heard your high phosphorous thing like 10x, no offense, but even though your soil test says that, doesn't mean that its 100% causing the problem you are having.


People like Jeff Lowenfels say that high N or P will keep your roots from producing exudes. Explain that one...


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## projectinfo (Oct 27, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Really, I'm blocking you now. You turned into an expert over night, right?


2008  just block me lol


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## Strudelheim (Oct 27, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> People like Jeff Lowenfels say that high N or P will keep your roots from producing exudes. Explain that one...



Cause why would a plant waste sugars on exudates to feed microbes that make more phosphorous available when there already is plenty of phos available. same with mycos. lots of p inhibits the growth because they are not needed as much.


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## Serverchris (Oct 28, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> OK, so this explains a little. I'm not set-up for SIP. I have 8gal square pots and I'm going to have to work with them until I see another Harvey or two. How would I use this stuff if I am not adding it to a reservoir?


I made an sip by filling a bus tub with perlite and sticking a smartpot filled with los on top, it works great. I normally just put water in the perlite and when I want to add teas I just add a little at the top, I feel this helps keep moisture in the top of the smartpot. The only problem is idk how I'm gonna reuse the perlite cause the roots have taken over down there, it's basically a rootball with some perlite in it now.


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## Serverchris (Oct 28, 2018)

https://www.webstaurantstore.com/20-x-15-x-7-black-polypropylene-bus-tub-bus-box/70221157 BK.html

This is the type of bus tub I was speaking of, this will fit a 10 gallon smart pot squeezed in pretty tight.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 28, 2018)

I've made a fool of myself, I'll step out now... Never seem to get anywhere on this forum anyways...


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## Strudelheim (Oct 28, 2018)

"projectinfo likes this" lolz


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## DankTankerous (Oct 28, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I've made a fool of myself, I'll step out now... Never seem to get anywhere on this forum anyways...


Don’t worry about it dude.


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## hyroot (Oct 28, 2018)




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## SSGrower (Oct 29, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I've made a fool of myself, I'll step out now... Never seem to get anywhere on this forum anyways...


Personally, I think you got your shit in line more than 99% of the other "growers".
I think lowenfells acts like a jackass and elane ingrahm is myopic in her vision and education of others. What I have seen of both, they leave gaping holes in every recorded conversation, they use the broader sense of nature and ecology in their methods, but they themselves do not understand fully why it works, same goes for clackimass and others. They are working within their domain and are generating solutions that work no doubt, but there is much more going on here than a single annual cycle, benifits and deficets are compunded over time and creating sustainable gardening and farming practices is not a simple thing. We (humans) were trying to figure out the riddle, thats how we ended up going down the synthetic fretilizer route when IMO we need to go back to the beginning and look at each ecosystem both wholey and for its individual components.

Steps off soapbox...


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## DankTankerous (Oct 29, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> Personally, I think you got your shit in line more than 99% of the other "growers".
> I think lowenfells acts like a jackass and elane ingrahm is myopic in her vision and education of others. What I have seen of both, they leave gaping holes in every recorded conversation, they use the broader sense of nature and ecology in their methods, but they themselves do not understand fully why it works, same goes for clackimass and others. They are working within their domain and are generating solutions that work no doubt, but there is much more going on here than a single annual cycle, benifits and deficets are compunded over time and creating sustainable gardening and farming practices is not a simple thing. We (humans) were trying to figure out the riddle, thats how we ended up going down the synthetic fretilizer route when IMO we need to go back to the beginning and look at each ecosystem both wholey and for its individual components.
> 
> Steps off soapbox...


Couldn’t agree more. That’s why we’re here gotta help each other out to figure it out. I have heard Duke Diamond say “The minute you think you understand the plant and know it all, it’ll throw a curveball at you.” Pass over people’s arrogance, even if it’s aimed at you, it’s all about them, so don’t take it personally.

I think there is no such thing as a simple solution. Just takes time, patience, and tenacity.


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## DankTankerous (Oct 29, 2018)

@hyroot i have a few more questions for ya:

Will the Kashi and Malted Barley take down the pH? And how long do you think it’ll take before I know it’s doing it’s job? I’m asking because i’d Like to pop some new beans here in 3 weeks if it doesn’t turn out

Also I’m seeing the soil is compacted because it’s taking forever for the plants to drink. I submerged her in water 4 days ago to get a full watering, a lot of the plant wasn’t getting watered it just ran off. Will the mycelium break up the compacted? I also can’t find any of my worms which I’m guessing is due to pH being off. 

What will happen to all the extra ph buffers (gypsum, crab meal, oyster shell, greensand, etc) that made the soil too alkaline, since they haven’t been eaten by the plants because of high pH?

Will I have to keep the top moist for the mycelium? How would I do that without over watering?

Thanks for all your help Hyroot


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 29, 2018)

i was just wondering, if this is no till, does that means there is "yes" till organics? in pots? in a grow room? how do you get the tiller in there? and the tractor? or do you use a mule, since it's organic?
tilling is mixing organic matter into your soil. you don't so that?
it also aerates the soil...so that's a bad thing?


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## projectinfo (Oct 29, 2018)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> i was just wondering, if this is no till, does that means there is "yes" till organics? in pots? in a grow room? how do you get the tiller in there? and the tractor? or do you use a mule, since it's organic?
> tilling is mixing organic matter into your soil. you don't so that?
> it also aerates the soil...so that's a bad thing?


By till they mean pull out the root bal and bust up the soil, repot.

In no till you cut off the stem at the pot and stick a new plant in next to it..

Minimal disturbance- less disruption of fungal network and microlife.


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## Roger A. Shrubber (Oct 29, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> By till they mean pull out the root bal and bust up the soil, repot.
> 
> In no till you cut off the stem at the pot and stick a new plant in next to it..
> 
> Minimal disturbance- less disruption of fungal network and microlife.


good explanation, thnx


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## projectinfo (Oct 29, 2018)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> i was just wondering, if this is no till, does that means there is "yes" till organics? in pots? in a grow room? how do you get the tiller in there? and the tractor? or do you use a mule, since it's organic?
> tilling is mixing organic matter into your soil. you don't so that?
> it also aerates the soil...so that's a bad thing?


Mule isnt aloud in the house anymore. Fuckin things got no respect. Shit and piss wherever the fuck he wants.

And the kick. Man. I tell you they really dont like being slapped on the ass or rode around the grow room like a horse. Dont do it.


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## projectinfo (Oct 29, 2018)

Roger A. Shrubber said:


> good explanation, thnx


After cutting, they use enzymes and the microlife to breakdown the roots and turn it into food, leaving behind a network of aeration.

Things like malted barley seed, corn sst, activated em1 or labs, compost, worms , bokashi all break stuff down for your plant to eat and lots of other benefits that come with these. 

. No need to till anymore if you can get a good self composting ecosystem going


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## projectinfo (Oct 29, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Another question I hear a lot is do you want more fungi dominated soil or bacteria dominated soil?
> 
> Well you want both, balanced. Root exudates attract bacteria and bacteria attracta fungi. The fungi feed on some bacteria and regulate nutrient uptake.
> 
> Another questionI hear a lot is about using mycorrhizae. What to buy or use. You can purchase freeze dried mycorrhizae like great white. The trichoderma in there will outcompete the other bacteria and fungi. If you use cover crops they will naturally facilitate mycorrhizae from the air. The root exudates from short root plants / grass will attract mycos


@MustangStudFarm

This was the post in question about the balance.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 29, 2018)

SSGrower said:


> I think lowenfells acts like a jackass and elane ingrahm is myopic in her vision and education of others. What I have seen of both, they leave gaping holes in every recorded conversation, they use the broader sense of nature and ecology in their methods, but they themselves do not understand fully why it works, same goes for clackimass and others.


Oh man, I know. There is so much conflicting info out there! They will tell you that you don't want excessive N and/or P, but they encourage the use of compost which is excessive in a few things. I feel like I've read enough to be very confused!


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Oh man, I know. There is so much conflicting info out there! They will tell you that you don't want excessive N and/or P, but they encourage the use of compost which is excessive in a few things. I feel like I've read enough to be very confused!



It all depends on what you're growing. Even different cannabis strains need more or less of various elements. So its all subjective.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 29, 2018)

hyroot said:


> View attachment 4223591


Did they at least send you air support? We never got air support when we needed it! Now, I got the 100% rating for TBI/PTSD... 

I'll take my time and try to get a better grasp on this... I really didn't want/expect to be spoon-fed this info. I'm just glad to have a direction to go in!!!


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 29, 2018)

hyroot said:


> It all depends on what you're growing. Even different cannabis strains need more or less of various elements. So its all subjective.


The problem is that they got in my head and it's hard for me to tell what is important. What I mean is my compost is usually 15x too high in P, 10x too high in N and K, but very low in trace/micros. Maybe, I need to focus less on the abundance and more on the deficiency? I was stuck on what Lowenfels said about P and N abundance would keep the roots from sending signals for the root exudes. However, they didn't specify how much was too much. Plus, I figured out that I have always been low in trace minerals and it wasn't all about the P locking them out...


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> @hyroot i have a few more questions for ya:
> 
> Will the Kashi and Malted Barley take down the pH? And how long do you think it’ll take before I know it’s doing it’s job? I’m asking because i’d Like to pop some new beans here in 3 weeks if it doesn’t turn out
> 
> ...



It should take a week. You can. Make a bokashi tea to speed things up. Just steep the bokashi in water for 2 days. To make a tea.

If soil is too compacted then you might have to till it a little. I dump the soil out of my pots once a year and remix the soil due to compacting. Worms only do so much. 

Yes you want to keep the top layer at least damp for the mycelium to form so add mulch or a plastic cover.

The mycelium will break down other amendments faster. Except for maybe green sand. That usually takes a couple years to break down. 

Like i said in another post. Having soill over amended. I'd transplant it into a larget pot that has just base soil thats not amended. 

Like super soil is heavily amended. Its layered 50/50 with unamended soil when planted because it runs so hot.


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> The problem is that they got in my head and it's hard for me to tell what is important. What I mean is my compost is usually 15x too high in P, 10x too high in N and K, but very low in trace/micros. Maybe, I need to focus less on the abundance and more on the deficiency? I was stuck on what Lowenfels said about P and N abundance would keep the roots from sending signals for the root exudes. However, they didn't specify how much was too much. Plus, I figured out that I have always been low in trace minerals and it wasn't all about the P locking them out...


What are you composting? Start adding more diverse inputs that have a full spectrum of nutrients and minerals. Fruits, veggies, amendments, leaves, grains, etc...


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## Strudelheim (Oct 29, 2018)

hyroot said:


> What are you composting? Start adding more diverse inputs that have a full spectrum of nutrients and minerals. Fruits, veggies, amendments, leaves, grains, etc...


Agreed, when you say yours is 15X what it should be, that seems like a lot. Compost is pretty balanced and low as far as the npk. Start another compost and add other things, or mix 30% compost 30% shredded paper 30% leaves and start a worm bin. Then feed that in a more controlled manner so you know whats going in. It also breaks down within 1-2 months and is ready to use. If your not doing something like this, I think that will make a difference, and thats the takeaway from all the organic authors and gurus as the one and most important aspect of organic gardening. compost and worms.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 29, 2018)

hyroot said:


> What are you composting? Start adding more diverse inputs that have a full spectrum of nutrients and minerals. Fruits, veggies, amendments, leaves, grains, etc...


What was happening was I was giving my best food scraps to my rabbits. I gave them away for free and been adding better inputs to the compost/worms.

I added some of my old veggie soup to the worm bin and they loved it! I don't use meat, salt, or seasoning to my soup only herbs. They formed a breeding ball under where I poured the soup. I mostly use oak leaves, grass clippings, and rabbit bedding(straw and alfalfa hay). I don't have the rabbits, but I still have a lot of bedding compost.
 

Here is my pure leaf mold. I've had it for 12mo now and it is not close to being finished. However, I am getting good fungal growth in places.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 29, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> Agreed, when you say yours is 15X what it should be, that seems like a lot. Compost is pretty balanced and low as far as the npk. Start another compost and add other things, or mix 30% compost 30% shredded paper 30% leaves and start a worm bin. Then feed that in a more controlled manner so you know whats going in. It also breaks down within 1-2 months and is ready to use. If your not doing something like this, I think that will make a difference, and thats the takeaway from all the organic authors and gurus as the one and most important aspect of organic gardening. compost and worms.


Do you know the hardest part about being a cat lover? It's telling your parents that your gay...


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2018)

This is my cat that has a dog personality. His name is Max Tiberius Powers. 

I can take him for walks and he will follow me all over town, no litter box. He goes outside and buries it. He listens and responds to commands for the most part. 

He is 10 years old and just as rambunctious as a puppy. He will fuck up any dog.

He will either lure a dog into the bushes and leaps at the dog jacki chan style slashing the dogs face up. Or he climbs up 5 feet of a tree and leaps onto the dog slashing away. He does get along with dogs that are his same size right away. Larger dogs he gets along with after he whoops their ass.


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## projectinfo (Oct 29, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Do you know the hardest part about being a cat lover? It's telling your parents that your gay...





MustangStudFarm said:


> What was happening was I was giving my best food scraps to my rabbits. I gave them away for free and been adding better inputs to the compost/worms.
> 
> I added some of my old veggie soup to the worm bin and they loved it! I don't use meat, salt, or seasoning to my soup only herbs. They formed a breeding ball under where I poured the soup. I mostly use oak leaves, grass clippings, and rabbit bedding(straw and alfalfa hay). I don't have the rabbits, but I still have a lot of bedding compost.
> View attachment 4223987
> ...


 Stop using rabbit shit.? Just a guess.


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## DankTankerous (Oct 29, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Do you know the hardest part about being a cat lover? It's telling your parents that your gay...


Hey dude this is an accepting community no need for those remarks. Chill out and. Forget about it


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## DankTankerous (Oct 29, 2018)

hyroot said:


> It should take a week. You can. Make a bokashi tea to speed things up. Just steep the bokashi in water for 2 days. To make a tea.
> 
> If soil is too compacted then you might have to till it a little. I dump the soil out of my pots once a year and remix the soil due to compacting. Worms only do so much.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much! Would you recommend that I transplant and try to take off a bunch of the alkaline over-amended soil and put it into Unamended soil? Then apply the Kashi?

Do I need a high power air pump for the tea? Shall I apply the Kashi, tea next time I water then the Malted Barley?


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 29, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> Hey dude this is an accepting community no need for those remarks. Chill out and. Forget about it


After being on here for years, it's hard for me to allow teens to punk me around. They wouldn't be saying this to my face!

They keep turning this into a pissing match and everyone is looking at me. I'm fine with being the dick in the room because I get paid well to be crazy. Seriously, I get $52k/yr because the war made me unstable. I've been exposed to too many blasts and I now have TBI(Traumatic Brain Injury). I don't appreciate kids trying to punk on me. They def wouldn't be saying this to my face, they hide behind computer screens.

My animals are between 8-12yrs old.


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## hyroot (Oct 29, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> Thank you so much! Would you recommend that I transplant and try to take off a bunch of the alkaline over-amended soil and put it into Unamended soil? Then apply the Kashi?
> 
> Do I need a high power air pump for the tea? Shall I apply the Kashi, tea next time I water then the Malted Barley?


Transplant into a larger pot. Fill the bottom and sides of the larger pot with unamended soil. 

Then top dress bokashi and malted barley. Then top dress castings and or compost. Then add a mulch cover. 

For a bokashi tea. No pump is needed. It's an anaerobic tea. So just steep the kashi in the water. Do not aerate!


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## DankTankerous (Oct 30, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Transplant into a larger pot. Fill the bottom and sides of the larger pot with unamended soil.
> 
> Then top dress bokashi and malted barley. Then top dress castings and or compost. Then add a mulch cover.
> 
> For a bokashi tea. No pump is needed. It's an anaerobic tea. So just steep the kashi in the water. Do not aerate!


Hey Hyroot, last few questions. Will I want/need to take off a bunch of soil from the root ball, or just shave the existing roots on outside and then place in bigger pot? 

If I do have to take a lot of the rootball out, Will the extra amount of soil prohibit the roots from moving out, and risk the possibility of overwatering? 

I’m also guessing I’m going to need to stagger the top dressing like today do the Malted Barley and Kashi, then in a few days do Worm Castings or just the next time I water?


----------



## outliergenetix (Oct 31, 2018)

sorry to butt in guys/gals but how do you no till ppl handle fungus gnats? i have bought my ammendments and seedlings sprouted for the first of many re-used soil runs, but i assume top dressing with gnat nix and so on is not a good idea with no till or re-using soil more specifically. i have read mixed reviews on amazon for nematodes. my concern is thegnats will be even worse with leaves as top dressing and using compost from worm bin etc.. so before i get knee deep in gnats in cpl weeks can someone give me some IPM advice for gnats with a re-ammended soil regiment


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

I found a podcast with the founder of Gro-Kashi, Alan Adkisson. He explained that LABS would detoxify manure. He also noted that he adds vitamins and minerals to his gro-kashi. I'm sure that he don't want to give away his secret, but I'm curious as to what minerals that he is using. He also noted that he was a judge at the Emerald Cup and all of the winners have been high brix, nutrient dense. I think that I am starting to get the hang of this!!! It's great finding podcasts, because I can do other things and learn at the same time...


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> my concern is thegnats will be even worse with leaves as top dressing and using compost from worm bin etc.


Compost has nematodes in it along with other beneficials. Most people on here use neem/karanja meal along with crustacean meal(chitin) and barley seed(chitinase). IPM strategies that go in the soil.


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## outliergenetix (Oct 31, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Compost has nematodes in it along with other beneficials. Most people on here use neem/karanja meal along with crustacean meal(chitin) and barley seed(chitinase). IPM strategies that go in the soil.


i have neem meal as an ammendment, i didn't think that was as effective as an insect repelent or whatever in that form/concentration. and i realize compost SHOULD have plenty of nematodes in it but how would we know which varieties we have or that they prefer gnat larvae. i am sure the microbiology of my compost is way different than the next guys, i wouldn't rest my garden's mite free future on the microbiology of my compost naturally. let's put it this way. i already have fungus gnats and the seedlings are 3 days old lol. this is in my composted super soil so clearly that isn't gonna cut the mustard. in 3 weeks i will be infested ik how this gnat thing goes. i just started over because of mites and remodeling i'd like to not play catch up like in the past. are you saying adding nematodes isn't a thing ppl do on there to kill existing gnats in conjunction with yellow strips because atm that was my plan


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

Sorry man, it's been such a long time since I have even seen gnats...


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## outliergenetix (Oct 31, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Sorry man, it's been such a long time since I have even seen gnats...


ig i should take that as good news then lol. i think i need to eradicate them totally before i can expect the compost and ammendments to do their work. i think the coir i bought must have came with gnats man. i use 1/3 coir instead of peat because it is easier for me to procure


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## hyroot (Oct 31, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I found a podcast with the founder of Gro-Kashi, Alan Adkisson. He explained that LABS would detoxify manure. He also noted that he adds vitamins and minerals to his gro-kashi. I'm sure that he don't want to give away his secret, but I'm curious as to what minerals that he is using. He also noted that he was a judge at the Emerald Cup and all of the winners have been high brix, nutrient dense. I think that I am starting to get the hang of this!!! It's great finding podcasts, because I can do other things and learn at the same time...


The gro kashi recipe is on the gro kashi site and in the file section in the pfa group and on build a soil's site. The inputs are pretty expensive. You're going to spend a lot to make your own gro kashi. The em super cera costs $65 and youngevity costs $65. 

*Dry Ingredient List:*


*Red Wheat 5 gallon*
*Azomite 1 cup*
*Sea+Real Salt 1 TBSP*
*Liquid Fermentation Ingredient List (plus 1/5 teaspoon EM Super Cera)*


*Water 2.5 Gallons (spring water or other non chlorinated, cloromine free water)*
*Black Strap Mollasses 2.5 Oz*
*Organic Beet Root Juice 2.5 Oz*
*Youngevity btt 2.0 organic 2.5 Oz (dry, but mix with your water)*
*EM-1 Microbial Innoculant 2.5 Oz*


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## hyroot (Oct 31, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> Hey Hyroot, last few questions. Will I want/need to take off a bunch of soil from the root ball, or just shave the existing roots on outside and then place in bigger pot?
> 
> If I do have to take a lot of the rootball out, Will the extra amount of soil prohibit the roots from moving out, and risk the possibility of overwatering?
> 
> I’m also guessing I’m going to need to stagger the top dressing like today do the Malted Barley and Kashi, then in a few days do Worm Castings or just the next time I water?


If you cut the root ball. The roots will explode. You can stagger top dressing. Its not necessary.


----------



## hyroot (Oct 31, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> i have neem meal as an ammendment, i didn't think that was as effective as an insect repelent or whatever in that form/concentration. and i realize compost SHOULD have plenty of nematodes in it but how would we know which varieties we have or that they prefer gnat larvae. i am sure the microbiology of my compost is way different than the next guys, i wouldn't rest my garden's mite free future on the microbiology of my compost naturally. let's put it this way. i already have fungus gnats and the seedlings are 3 days old lol. this is in my composted super soil so clearly that isn't gonna cut the mustard. in 3 weeks i will be infested ik how this gnat thing goes. i just started over because of mites and remodeling i'd like to not play catch up like in the past. are you saying adding nematodes isn't a thing ppl do on there to kill existing gnats in conjunction with yellow strips because atm that was my plan


Top dress a 2 inch layer of non manure compost or worm castings. Gnats will be gone in a week. 

You can also add nematodes even though they're already present in compost. Mosy hydro shops carry nematodes.


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

hyroot said:


> The gro kashi recipe is on the gro kashi site and in the file section in the pfa group and on build a soil's site. The inputs are pretty expensive. You're going to spend over $200 to make your own gro kashi.


I'm mostly interested in the minerals that he is using since he talks directly about high brix. I'll see if I can find it.
There was more to his podcast than what goes into his gro-kashi. He was raised on a dairy farm and in '94 he realized that the silage that was treated with LABS was running off into the manure lagoon. He said that the lagoon went from barren and toxic to frogs and ducks. I've been complaining about rabbit manure and I never seemed to get good results from it, and this could be the answer! LABS take out the toxicity from manure, it blew my mind!!!

https://www.shapingfire.com/podcast-feed/episode-15-open-source-probiotic-cannabis-with-guest-alan-adkisson


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

hyroot said:


> *Dry Ingredient List:*
> 
> 
> *Red Wheat 5 gallon*
> ...


I am currently looking at the BAS website. I had a bad encounter with BAS and I was let down by their "Modern Mix v2.0 w/ Oly mnt fish compost" I was experiencing the exact same problems as I was with my manure composts. I had it tested and it had extremely high P and very low micros. Did I mention that I bought a pallet of the soil for $1k. Maybe I'm a dumbass for not trying a small bag first??? Anyways, here is what BAS says about high phosphates. Funny, because the soil they sold me was 10x too high in P and I had it tested at Logan Labs which is a well known laboratory.

https://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/14100173-high-phosphorus-amendments

This is the article from the Probiotics Farmers Association, but I didn't see the recipe. It must be hidden.
https://buildasoil.com/blogs/news/17784352-modern-cannabist-an-introduction-to-probiotic-organics-from-a-pfa-member

Anyways, I have pink Himalayan salt and SEA90 which is a naturally dehydrated sea salt. I thought that people were against Azomite because of the high amounts of Al? I've been able to keep my Al count very low in the past, but my trace/micros have also been low...

I didn't understand soil testing at the time and I should have got a solubility test to go along with the Mehlich 3. This is the BAS "Modern Mix v2.0 w/ Oly Mnt Fish Compost". A solubility test would have shown the micros/trace elements lower from lock-out. At least, my compost had a lower Al count than BAS's soil. I had to cut off my name in the pic, but the yellow column is the value found and the numbers to the right are the desired value.


----------



## outliergenetix (Oct 31, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Top dress a 2 inch layer of non manure compost or worm castings. Gnats will be gone in a week.
> 
> You can also add nematodes even though they're already present in compost. Mosy hydro shops carry nematodes.


thank you i will try those as a top dressing, i already saw how cheap nematodes are on amazon etc.. i think imma do a few nematode runs to help get this under control to. multi pronged attack lol


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

hyroot said:


> The gro kashi recipe is on the gro kashi site and in the file section in the pfa group and on build a soil's site. The inputs are pretty expensive. You're going to spend a lot to make your own gro kashi. The em super cera costs $65 and youngevity costs $65.


Sorry for going on a rant about BAS. I guess that my point is that you can make better soil at home and it is hard to buy a good soil. I wasted a bunch of money...

I should focus more on my questions. My biggest one is about Azomite. I haven't been using it because I got caught up in the whole "Aluminum Levels" argument and I ASSumed that it was bad. I understand that Al causes Alzheimer, but the plant might not absorb it unless the Ph is very low. I've never had plant tissue sampled, so I don't have a clue.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> thank you i will try those as a top dressing, i already saw how cheap nematodes are on amazon etc.. i think imma do a few nematode runs to help get this under control to. multi pronged attack lol


If you use compost/EWC for the nematodes, you will get more than one benefit...


----------



## hyroot (Oct 31, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Sorry for going on a rant about BAS. I guess that my point is that you can make better soil at home and it is hard to buy a good soil. I wasted a bunch of money...
> 
> I should focus more on my questions. My biggest one is about Azomite. I haven't been using it because I got caught up in the whole "Aluminum Levels" argument and I ASSumed that it was bad. I understand that Al causes Alzheimer, but the plant might not absorb it unless the Ph is very low. I've never had plant tissue sampled, so I don't have a clue.



Modern microbes isn't around anymore. The guy Antonio i think is his name. Couldn't afford to keep it going. They closed doors a while ago. 

I never bought soil from bas due to shipping costs. I only buy amendments or other small items. 

The aluminum oxide gets bioremediated out from the the em1 and em super cera being in there. Like how labs removes toxicity from manure. Plus the azomite is an anti clumping agent.


----------



## hyroot (Oct 31, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> thank you i will try those as a top dressing, i already saw how cheap nematodes are on amazon etc.. i think imma do a few nematode runs to help get this under control to. multi pronged attack lol



Buy nematodes in person. Don't order them. Most likely they will be doa if you order them. They are very sensitive to low and high temps or dramatic environmental changes.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Oct 31, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Modern microbes isn't around anymore. The guy Antonio i think is his name. Couldn't afford to keep it going. They closed doors a while ago.


It was Dec. 2016 when I placed my order from BAS... Don't get me wrong, one of my best harvest came from amending compost with their "Nutrient Kit", the one similar to the Coots kit. I kept adding stuff after that good harvest and messed everything up.



hyroot said:


> The aluminum oxide gets bioremediated out from the the em1 and em super cera being in there. Like how labs removes toxicity from manure. Plus the azomite is an anti clumping agent.


I was trying to figure out what Super Cera is, but didn't get very far. $65 is not too much and really, I would do anything to get back on track right now...


----------



## Wetdog (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I'm mostly interested in the minerals that he is using since he talks directly about high brix. I'll see if I can find it.
> There was more to his podcast than what goes into his gro-kashi. He was raised on a dairy farm and in '94 he realized that the silage that was treated with LABS was running off into the manure lagoon. He said that the lagoon went from barren and toxic to frogs and ducks. I've been complaining about rabbit manure and I never seemed to get good results from it, and this could be the answer! LABS take out the toxicity from manure, it blew my mind!!!
> 
> https://www.shapingfire.com/podcast-feed/episode-15-open-source-probiotic-cannabis-with-guest-alan-adkisson


Love those *lightbulb* moments when everything just clicks and is made perfectly clear how things fit together.

LABS bring all kinds of benefits and are both cheap and easy for DIY.

Wet


----------



## DankTankerous (Nov 1, 2018)

@hyroot do you know of any cheaper brands that sell aloe Vera flakes and Coconut water/powder cheaper than BaS? I love them, but they’re just really pricey. Like is there an alternative No-Till amendments online store?


----------



## Avant_Gardener (Nov 1, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> @hyroot do you know of any cheaper brands that sell aloe Vera flakes and Coconut water/powder cheaper than BaS? I love them, but they’re just really pricey. Like is there an alternative No-Till amendments online store?


Before I order from BAS, I always check with KIS Organics too. Most of the time I purchase through them. Its just an option...


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> do you know of any cheaper brands that sell aloe Vera flakes


What is the difference between fresh aloe and flakes? I imagine that growing aloe would be the cheaper route, I'm often wrong though...


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

Avant_Gardener said:


> I always check with KIS Organics too


I've listened to all of Tad Hussey's podcasts!!!


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> You have a lot of unnecessary amendments. The bone meals and manures will make the soil run pretty hot. I'd mix it
> 50/50 with soil that has not been amended. I would water with compost teas and seed sprout tea to break every thing down faster plus add Bokashi and Bokashi will definitely speed up cooking process breaking everything down much faster.
> 
> The bone meals and manures and guanos will make the cooking time take longer too
> ...


 I noticed you left out malted barley seed 1/2cup

Any reason or just prefer top dress now?


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> LABS bring all kinds of benefits and are both cheap and easy for DIY.


I hope that you are not trying to take credit for what Hyroot showed me, you have just been nothing but an obstacle in my opinion. Save it for the Newbs...


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Liquid Fermentation Ingredient List (plus 1/5 teaspoon EM Super Cera)


Would this be the fermented plant juice with Super Cera as a ferment booster?


----------



## DynamiteBob (Nov 1, 2018)

I’m about to make a lacto serum and have some buttermilk leftover in the fridge. Do you guys think it will work in place of regular milk?


----------



## DankTankerous (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> What is the difference between fresh aloe and flakes? I imagine that growing aloe would be the cheaper route, I'm often wrong though...


Growing it is probably the cheaper route but I can’t grow them worth shit. The smallest bag BaS offers is like 20-25?


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## Wetdog (Nov 1, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> Growing it is probably the cheaper route but I can’t grow them worth shit. The smallest bag BaS offers is like 20-25?


Get the gallon jug of 99.8% pure aloe juice at WalMart, a bit over $6 for the gallon. Get the plain, but they do offer flavors for the folks that drink some daily. Good stuff and cheap.

Wet


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## Wetdog (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I hope that you are not trying to take credit for what Hyroot showed me, you have just been nothing but an obstacle in my opinion. Save it for the Newbs...



I was merely expressing happiness over your moment of clarity and understanding, not trying to take credit for anything and you respond like this?

Get over yourself.

Wet


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> @hyroot do you know of any cheaper brands that sell aloe Vera flakes and Coconut water/powder cheaper than BaS? I love them, but they’re just really pricey. Like is there an alternative No-Till amendments online store?



This is where everyone got aloe flakes before bas was around. It may be their supplier


http://www.ingredientstodiefor.com/item/Aloe_Vera_Extract_200x_Organic_Puraloe/111

Then amazon and kisorganics carries it too.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> What is the difference between fresh aloe and flakes? I imagine that growing aloe would be the cheaper route, I'm often wrong though...



Aloe flakes are freeze dried aloe and lasts a long time Fresh aloe lasts 4 hours before it turns to water.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Would this be the fermented plant juice with Super Cera as a ferment booster?




https://www.teraganix.com/Super-C-Powder-p/4009.htm


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> I noticed you left out malted barley seed 1/2cup
> 
> Any reason or just prefer top dress now?


I've always and only top dressed malted barley when i have it


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

DynamiteBob said:


> I’m about to make a lacto serum and have some buttermilk leftover in the fridge. Do you guys think it will work in place of regular milk?


No, buttermilk is already processed with a culture. Just use the whole D


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> Get the gallon jug of 99.8% pure aloe juice at WalMart, a bit over $6 for the gallon. Get the plain, but they do offer flavors for the folks that drink some daily. Good stuff and cheap.
> 
> Wet



Nope. Don't use that. It has citric acid in it.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> Growing it is probably the cheaper route but I can’t grow them worth shit. The smallest bag BaS offers is like 20-25?


Aloe growing tip. They do not grow well in fabric pots because the soil dries out too fast and aloe roots grow pretty slow and they do produce thick roots. Imo they do best in clay terracotta pots or in the ground. Don't over water or under water them. If they get pale, they're under watered.

I grow mine in clay terracotta pots and those plastic terracotta style self warering ( sip ) pots that are sold at home depot.. They seem to grow faster and bigger in the clay pots.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> https://www.teraganix.com/Super-C-Powder-p/4009.htm


I see the product but it is hard to find information about it. What is the difference between Super Cera and EM1? Really, the question is if I should invest in it because I have EM1 already and plan on making my own Lacto B next time. I'm putting together a shopping list to make Gro-Kashi and going to stop by the brew store tomorrow for the red wheat. Gro-Kashi really sparked my interest when he was talking about obtaining a high brix value. Your right, it will take about $200 to make Gro-kashi but I feel that it is the missing piece of the puzzle. 

I might try Youngevity for myself, it looks interesting and has very positive reviews. I'm sure that it don't take much of it for Gro-Kashi. I think that I have been caught up on N-P-K values and soil testing for too long. I keep getting the same answer on soil tests anyways, low in micros. That is why I want to focus on "High Brix" and Gro-Kashi addresses that issue!


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> Growing it is probably the cheaper route but I can’t grow them worth shit. The smallest bag BaS offers is like 20-25?


It was just a question and didn't mean any negativity. I actually had a nice aloe plant last year but I didn't know what to do with it... I am going to focus on companion plants like comfrey, aloe, wort, and whatever that will help. I came across an article that talked about a plant that was high in Mn, which is always low on my soil tests, but I can't remember which wort it was. It wasn't Mug-wort but the other wort.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I see the product but it is hard to find information about it. What is the difference between Super Cera and EM1? Really, the question is if I should invest in it because I have EM1 already and plan on making my own Lacto B next time. I'm putting together a shopping list to make Gro-Kashi and going to stop by the brew store tomorrow for the red wheat. Gro-Kashi really sparked my interest when he was talking about obtaining a high brix value. Your right, it will take about $200 to make Gro-kashi but I feel that it is the missing piece of the puzzle.
> 
> I might try Youngevity for myself, it looks interesting and has very positive reviews. I'm sure that it don't take much of it for Gro-Kashi. I think that I have been caught up on N-P-K values and soil testing for too long. I keep getting the same answer on soil tests anyways, low in micros. That is why I want to focus on "High Brix" and Gro-Kashi addresses that issue!


It may be the em1 and rock dusts in the gro kashi that help with brix levels.

I make boakshi with with;
Red wheat
Lab serum (not activated )
Molasees
Himilayan salt
Photosynthesis plus (contains pnsb)
Rock dusts. ( I used basalt last time. I may try azomite next time).

I haven't tried beet juice. That may help with brix levels too.


The flower power fruit ferment has increased the brix levels more than anything else I've ever used. I have used about 5 bags of gro kashi before making my own bokashi for the first time.

Btw i get red wheat at $11 for 25 lbs at a horse feed store.


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> My soil mix - coots mix adjusted
> 
> Equal parts peat moss, wormcastings / compost and garden pumice.
> 
> ...


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

@MustangStudFarm super cera is fermented ceramic clay thats then fired i think. There's threads on pfa from 3 years ago where Alan was discussing removing super cera from the recipe to get a clean green certification.


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## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

@projectinfo
After the soil is mixed i top dress the malted barley and water it in. Per coots instructions before he went crazy.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> It may be the em1 and rock dusts in the gro kashi that help with brix levels


Does the "Youngevity" have anything to do with it? He kept talking about prenatal vitamins during the podcast and kept describing treating the plant like a young lady getting ready for child bearing. 

I was actually looking around my yard for FPJ material and this is what I came up with. A roma tomato plant that stopped producing but is still very healthy and vibrant. It's still producing flowers, but not like it was a couple of weeks ago.
 

I think that this is Chinese Basil, very fragrant.
 

I'm not sure what this is, but it is still vibrant.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> @MustangStudFarm suoer cera is fermented ceramic clay thats then fired i think. There's threads on pfa from 3 years ago where Alan was discussing removing super cera from the recipe to get a clran green certification.


It's expensive and I was wondering if it was really helpful anyways???



hyroot said:


> @projectinfo
> After the soil is mixed i top dress the mleted barley and water it in. Per coots instructions before he went crazy.


I mixed the barley with the soil and didn't top-dress. I still have plenty and it's cheap. I've noticed some interesting mold coming from them, some multicolored but mostly white fuzz.


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> The flower power fruit ferment has increased the brix levels more than anything else I've ever used. I have used about 5 bags of gro kashi before making my own bokashi for the first time


This is helpful... Wife picked up plenty of brown sugar today...


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## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Does the "Youngevity" have anything to do with it? He kept talking about prenatal vitamins during the podcast and kept describing treating the plant like a young lady getting ready for child bearing.
> 
> I was actually looking around my yard for FPJ material and this is what I came up with. A roma tomato plant that stopped producing but is still very healthy and vibrant. It's still producing flowers, but not like it was a couple of weeks ago.
> View attachment 4225673
> ...


As long as its fast growing its good for an fpj. I ferment some fast growing flowers that bloom year round and produce pinkish flowers that grow all over my moms house. I need to get some comfrey going again.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> This is helpful... Wife picked up plenty of brown sugar today...



Thats the one i make with activated lab (aem) and water. Not brown sugar. Recipe is ealier in this thread or search Roberto's brew in the pfa.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Thats the one i make with activated lab (aem) and water. Not brown sugar. Recipe is ealier in this thread or search Roberto's brew in the pfa.


Ok, so it's not the FFJ. I have ingredients for both, so no biggie.

Thanks for spending time answering questions, I feel like I've been asking too many of them lol.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Thats the one i make with activated lab (aem) and water. Not brown sugar. Recipe is ealier in this thread or search Roberto's brew in the pfa


I found PFA on Facebook and I hope that my wife gets interested. She is into kimchi and kombucha type stuff already. She is ready for me to make LABs so she can use it as a deodorizer and laundry booster. I'm hoping that she will help with the research and we can get up to speed. Thanks again!


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I found PFA on Facebook and I hope that my wife gets interested. She is into kimchi and kombucha type stuff already. She is ready for me to make LABs so she can use it as a deodorizer and laundry booster. I'm hoping that she will help with the research and we can get up to speed. Thanks again!



I saw your mineral post. I was the one that commented 

Mustang stud farm?


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Ok, so it's not the FFJ. I have ingredients for both, so no biggie.
> 
> Thanks for spending time answering questions, I feel like I've been asking too many of them lol.


No it's not ffj. I haven't made an ffj since I started doing the flower power ffe. From knf recipes i only make fpj and wcap.


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I saw your mineral post. I was the one that commented
> 
> Mustang stud farm?


We are using our regular names on facebook lol. It's probably a real horse breeder. I made my screen name when I was 19 and on a Mustang forum, I'm 36 now. I'm kind of embarrassed about my screen name now, but my Mustangs do have balls and scary to drive.


----------



## hyroot (Nov 1, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> We are using our regular names on facebook lol. It's probably a real horse breeder. I made my screen name when I was 19 and on a Mustang forum, I'm 36 now. I'm kind of embarrassed about my screen name now, but my Mustangs do have balls and scary to drive.


You misunderstood. My comment was "mustang stud farm?" Asking if who ever posted is you. On that same thread / post about minerals. The same thread where Jeremy Silva from bas said theres magnanese in kelp.


----------



## SSGrower (Nov 1, 2018)

hyroot said:


> @MustangStudFarm super cera is fermented ceramic clay thats then fired i think. There's threads on pfa from 3 years ago where Alan was discussing removing super cera from the recipe to get a clean green certification.


I was gifted a kiln and will be doing a bisque firing soon. The thing that struck me about your comment is I added aEM-1 to the clay I used as an experiment to see if it affected how the clay felt or what the affect was on a finishied piece. It is sold as an additive for brickmaking and is why I thought it reasonable to try, they are mostly planter piecesand will be unglazed. I have plenty of this clay and in fact will be doing some test firings before I put my pieces in @hyroot do you have any additional information or links that might be relavent here? The kiln is capable of 2250 F and I still have some wet clay I could add azomite or kelp or ??


----------



## Strudelheim (Nov 2, 2018)

https://growingorganic.com/probiotics/how-to-use-fermented-plant-extract/

https://permies.com/t/23601/kitchen/Fermented-Plant-Extracts

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-7.pdf


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 2, 2018)

Strudelheim said:


> https://growingorganic.com/probiotics/how-to-use-fermented-plant-extract/
> 
> https://permies.com/t/23601/kitchen/Fermented-Plant-Extracts
> 
> https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/SA-7.pdf


 Sweet. Thanks strudel


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 2, 2018)

hyroot said:


> You misunderstood. My comment was "mustang stud farm?" Asking if who ever posted is you. On that same thread / post about minerals. The same thread where Jeremy Silva from bas said theres magnanese in kelp.


I think that it is a coincidence. I don't remember talking to Jeremy Silva from BAS, unless it was prior to 2016. I'm not hating on BAS, I was just disappointed with their mixed soil. I was looking to order a pallet of pumice because it is impossible to find in OKC and Denver is only 700 miles away, so they have the best shipping rates for me. It also makes it cheaper if you have a trailer and pick it up from a freight loading dock instead of home delivered.

Anyways, I've been looking for pumice for the last couple of years and buying by the pallet is probably my best bet. Shipping is $160 but the final price is $325, so it's not too bad for this large of an order. I've been working with what I can find lately, perlite.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 2, 2018)

hyroot said:


> You misunderstood. My comment was "mustang stud farm?" Asking if who ever posted is you. On that same thread / post about minerals. The same thread where Jeremy Silva from bas said theres magnanese in kelp.


I very well could be lost man, it happens to me all the time.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 3, 2018)

hyroot said:


> 10 gal is fine for mothers
> 
> 
> 
> ...


On the podcast with Alan Adkisson, he said that SIP is much like the "Hanging Gardens of Babylon". They used LABS in their rez also. I'm kicking myself because I recently invested in 8gal square pots. I might look into SIP after a couple of Harveys.


----------



## projectinfo (Nov 4, 2018)

any opinons here about insect frass, bio char, yucca? 
anyone mixing a bit in?


----------



## DankTankerous (Nov 4, 2018)

@hyroot how much Kashi and Malted Barley do you top dress with? I did two tablespoons each for the 7 gal, but the Kashi said 1/3 cup to fifteen gallons, that seems little eh? I’m guessing 15 gallons for no till.


----------



## SirSquashalot (Nov 4, 2018)

So when cooking super soil, after mixing, watering and puting in a barrel, I've read to keep mixing the soil every couple days as well as keeping it moist of coarse. But then I've also read that you dont want to mix it because the white fuzzy fungi that grows on top of the soil discontinues growth after you mix it. 
Can someone enlighten me on this? 
I have had that white fungi about every time I've mixed soil but it never comes back after mixing my soil. 
Not sure if I'm doing something wrong and maybe shouldn't still be mixing the soil after the initial mix, out of the 4 or 5 batches of soil I've made atleast 2 went bad and wasn't sure why, I mixed the soil thoroughly every few days and kept it most. Now I'm a handful of days into a new batch of soil and just dont want it to go bad on me. 
I appreciate anybody's input!


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> So when cooking super soil


Are you following TGA's recipe? Most people on here are following Clackamas Coots, its the same idea but different inputs. I like Clackamas because he addresses the high P issues that I've been having.


SirSquashalot said:


> after mixing, watering and puting in a barrel,


It would be ideal to use fabric pots, but I haven't made it that far yet. Smart pots has 100gal+ containers and people use it for composting/EWC/Outdoor grows. Anyways, LABS should help with anaerobic bacteria.


SirSquashalot said:


> I have had that white fungi about every time I've mixed soil but it never comes back after mixing my soil.


You can achieve this with bokashi/grokashi, it has LABS in it already.


SirSquashalot said:


> out of the 4 or 5 batches of soil I've made atleast 2 went bad and wasn't sure why


What makes you say that they went bad??? I mix barley with my soil and it smells something like puke on the beach, the crab and kelp give it the beach smell. It goes away after a while and the barley gets fuzzy. If you ever cooked with rye, you would recognize the smell.

I don't know if I helped you at all? Supersoil uses blood/bone meal and it does stink worse than amendments from the ocean. It was a lot harder to keep animals out of supersoil compared to Clackamas's recipe. The "Dead Animal" smell is common with blood meal and bone meal, time for a change... Maybe bokashi could help with the smell until then???


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> So when cooking super soil, after mixing, watering and puting in a barrel, I've read to keep mixing the soil every couple days as well as keeping it moist of coarse. But then I've also read that you dont want to mix it because the white fuzzy fungi that grows on top of the soil discontinues growth after you mix it.
> Can someone enlighten me on this?
> I have had that white fungi about every time I've mixed soil but it never comes back after mixing my soil.
> Not sure if I'm doing something wrong and maybe shouldn't still be mixing the soil after the initial mix, out of the 4 or 5 batches of soil I've made atleast 2 went bad and wasn't sure why, I mixed the soil thoroughly every few days and kept it most. Now I'm a handful of days into a new batch of soil and just dont want it to go bad on me.
> I appreciate anybody's input!


If your only interested in TGA's SuperSoil, he has a dedicated section in the organic section.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> bio char


I've been reading that Biochar is more helpful to outdoor growers who are having trouble getting their organic matter higher than 10%. I think that indoor potting soil is somewhere in the 40-60% range organic matter. I'm sure that it is helpful, but not as helpful as it would be for an outdoor grow.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> @hyroot how much Kashi and Malted Barley do you top dress with? I did two tablespoons each for the 7 gal, but the Kashi said 1/3 cup to fifteen gallons, that seems little eh? I’m guessing 15 gallons for no till.


Are you making your own 'kashi? My question would be if you could use too much. I plan on topdressing my big worm bin with it because it has rabbit manure in it. I saw a video of Alan Adkisson(Grokashi founder) and he was setting up his "Earth Boxes" and he basically used Promix, Malibu cow manure, and grokashi. I've been avoiding using manure and this may be the key.. Sorry for rambling...

I can't think Hyroot enough for pointing me in the direction of Alan Adkisson, his theories are a game changer for me!!!


----------



## DankTankerous (Nov 5, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Are you making your own 'kashi? My question would be if you could use too much. I plan on topdressing my big worm bin with it because it has rabbit manure in it. I saw a video of Alan Adkisson(Grokashi founder) and he was setting up his "Earth Boxes" and he basically used Promix, Malibu cow manure, and grokashi. I've been avoiding using manure and this may be the key.. Sorry for rambling...
> 
> I can't think Hyroot enough for pointing me in the direction of Alan Adkisson, his theories are a game changer for me!!!


The Kashi I got is from Build a Soil 
Discover how our Kashi Blend, a diverse grain bokashi, can jumpstart your gardening and composting efforts!

*WHAT’S IN YOUR KASHI BLEND?*

Our Kashi Blend is derived from organic molasses, organic rice bran, organic wheat bran, organic camelina meal, organic malted barley, organic insect frass, EM-1, and trace minerals.

*HOW TO USE ON PLANTS: *

To use simply apply 1/3 cup to 15 gallons on soil every 10-14 days.

https://buildasoil.com/products/kashi-blend?variant=1040251460


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 5, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> The Kashi I got is from Build a Soil
> Discover how our Kashi Blend, a diverse grain bokashi, can jumpstart your gardening and composting efforts!
> 
> *WHAT’S IN YOUR KASHI BLEND?*
> ...


could u answer my question?

what would happen if I used an air stone in a Reservoir full of em1? is there anything beneficial to be achieved by this? or would it be going in reverse since em1 is anaerobic


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 5, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Are you following TGA's recipe? Most people on here are following Clackamas Coots, its the same idea but different inputs. I like Clackamas because he addresses the high P issues that I've been having.
> 
> It would be ideal to use fabric pots, but I haven't made it that far yet. Smart pots has 100gal+ containers and people use it for composting/EWC/Outdoor grows. Anyways, LABS should help with anaerobic bacteria.
> 
> ...


No I'm not following anyone's recipe, kind of took everything in from different recipe's and came up with my own make-up with probably around 9 amendments or so and I aim for around 3 cups per cu. ft. 
I've had problems with getting adequate K in my soil though I've noticed, seems there's not much amendment out there that's rich in mostly K, none that I've come across anyway, I've never used green sand though but I'm incorporating it this time. 
How often do you mix your soil after your initial mix? Do you leave the lid on the container completely covered or cracked open? 
The reason I say my soil has went bad before is it has took on a dirty socks, musty stinky smell along with lost that bit of heat that you feel when the soil is cooking. 
I'll look into those giant cloth pots. That's not a bad idea.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> No I'm not following anyone's recipe, kind of took everything in from different recipe's and came up with my own make-up with probably around 9 amendments or so and I aim for around 3 cups per cu. ft.
> I've had problems with getting adequate K in my soil though I've noticed, seems there's not much amendment out there that's rich in mostly K, none that I've come across anyway, I've never used green sand though but I'm incorporating it this time.
> How often do you mix your soil after your initial mix? Do you leave the lid on the container completely covered or cracked open?
> The reason I say my soil has went bad before is it has took on a dirty socks, musty stinky smell along with lost that bit of heat that you feel when the soil is cooking.
> I'll look into those giant cloth pots. That's not a bad idea.


green sand and langebenite are great for k!

I have also done the same and took a Lil form everyones recipe and made it my own with what's easily available! here's my mix, but I'm still playing around with the amounts!
someone suggested I add everything together and do 3 cups of the mix per cu.ft. but I haven't done that in just go light on what's listed!

not on the list below, I also use dolomite lime, gro-Kashi, em1, and guanos sometimes.


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> No I'm not following anyone's recipe, kind of took everything in from different recipe's and came up with my own make-up with probably around 9 amendments or so and I aim for around 3 cups per cu. ft.
> I've had problems with getting adequate K in my soil though I've noticed, seems there's not much amendment out there that's rich in mostly K, none that I've come across anyway, I've never used green sand though but I'm incorporating it this time.
> How often do you mix your soil after your initial mix? Do you leave the lid on the container completely covered or cracked open?
> The reason I say my soil has went bad before is it has took on a dirty socks, musty stinky smell along with lost that bit of heat that you feel when the soil is cooking.
> I'll look into those giant cloth pots. That's not a bad idea.


There is a lot of K in molasses and kelp, plus you get a bump in trace minerals from both. Try to avoid Rock phosphates and bone meal because of phosphorus. Fish meal is borderline for me because fish hydrolysate has more benefits. The only P input that Clackamas uses is Crab/crustacean meal and it has the benefit of Chitin. Most of the inputs that Clackamas uses has more than one benefit, like alfalfa has triacontanol along with a N-P-K ratio that is low in P. The founder of the "Soil Savvy Test" that I use said that K should be 2x the amount shown on the test results and that is the only thing different from other "Garden Plants". It started to make sense to why everyone uses a molasses tea brew/ferments.

I'm new to ferments, but I think that there is a good supply of K in Fermented Plant Juice(FPJ) and Roberto's Brew Flower Power. Hyroot has the recipe listed in this thread also.
https://docs.google.com/document/u/1/d/1cxlUTCpm6NCKGWiMVpmA5YlO6J2kCu5g6QaNXfgjauo/mobilebasic?pli=1


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> I've never used green sand though but I'm incorporating it this time.


I think that it takes about 12months for it to begin breaking down. Man, I chased this rabbit down the hole before Hyroot gave me a good direction to go. My reoccurring problem has been low micronutrients. Bokashi and Grokashi address this issue and "High Brix" is also addressed with these methods. High Brix is all about nutrient dense crops and that is from carbohydrates and trace minerals. I just didn't know how to apply it until I came across the 'kashi and KNF.


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 5, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> green sand and langebenite are great for k!
> 
> I have also done the same and took a Lil form everyones recipe and made it my own with what's easily available! here's my mix, but I'm still playing around with the amounts!
> someone suggested I add everything together and do 3 cups of the mix per cu.ft. but I haven't done that in just go light on what's listed!
> ...


Yeah my list looks similar to yours. Thanks for the info, I'll look into that langebenite.


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 5, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I think that it takes about 12months for it to begin breaking down. Man, I chased this rabbit down the hole before Hyroot gave me a good direction to go. My reoccurring problem has been low micronutrients. Bokashi and Grokashi address this issue and "High Brix" is also addressed with these methods. High Brix is all about nutrient dense crops and that is from carbohydrates and trace minerals. I just didn't know how to apply it until I came across the 'kashi and KNF.


I appreciate the help. Yeah I think I'm going to start testing my soil(sending it to a lab), that will really help get things dialed in. Just have to keep my mixes from going anaerobic. I'm thinking maybe I sometimes didnt mix/churn often enough or maybe didnt have enough perlite mixed in and maybe that's the problem. I'm crossing my fingers that this batch stays good because I got plants going into it in a few weeks.


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> The Kashi I got is from Build a Soil
> Discover how our Kashi Blend, a diverse grain bokashi, can jumpstart your gardening and composting efforts!
> 
> *WHAT’S IN YOUR KASHI BLEND?*
> ...


I got my supplies today!!! I bought Azomite in bulk the best that I could, $49/44lbs. 10gal bucket, air lock, EM1, 50lbs wheat bran(Cattle feed), and Youngevitey. My wife was interested in the multi-vitamin, so we pulled the trigger on it. I think that I'm only missing the Super Cera for the Grokashi recipe.

Sorry man, I'm excited. I'm about to clone and start over with grokashi treated compost. I have some teen plants, but they are showing micronutrient deficiency.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> I appreciate the help. Yeah I think I'm going to start testing my soil(sending it to a lab), that will really help get things dialed in. Just have to keep my mixes from going anaerobic. I'm thinking maybe I sometimes didnt mix/churn often enough or maybe didnt have enough perlite mixed in and maybe that's the problem. I'm crossing my fingers that this batch stays good because I got plants going into it in a few weeks.


I like to use rice hauls instead of perlite


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> I appreciate the help. Yeah I think I'm going to start testing my soil(sending it to a lab), that will really help get things dialed in. Just have to keep my mixes from going anaerobic. I'm thinking maybe I sometimes didnt mix/churn often enough or maybe didnt have enough perlite mixed in and maybe that's the problem. I'm crossing my fingers that this batch stays good because I got plants going into it in a few weeks.


Man, the only real help that I got from testing soil is that I was always low on micronutrients. I was composting rabbit manure and I never really got it to work for me, but Alan Adkisson grew up on a dairy farm and he said that ferments take the toxicity out of manure/soil. It blew my mind!!! Bokashi treated manure compost... Bokashi taking the toxicity out of Azomoite really sounds interesting too because Azomite is STACKED, but 35% aluminum oxide. Aluminum attributes to Alzheimers...


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

This is a "Soil Savvy" test and it is a solubility test, so it is showing lock-out. I'm always chasing the trace/micronutients. Last time, it was Cu, Zn, and Mn. I was also using Cu, Mn, Zn sulfate instead of azomite and bokashi. This time, I'm chasing Boron... I really think that 'kashi is going to help with this...


This is the test where the K is supposed to be 2x the amount "target area". Also, having excess on this test is OK as long as nothing is too low, like lock-out from something else being too high, the Antagonist relationship.


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 5, 2018)

hyroot said:


> *Dry Ingredient List:*
> 
> 
> *Red Wheat 5 gallon*
> ...


Thank you again, i'm about to mix this up!!!


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 5, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Man, the only real help that I got from testing soil is that I was always low on micronutrients. I was composting rabbit manure and I never really got it to work for me, but Alan Adkisson grew up on a dairy farm and he said that ferments take the toxicity out of manure/soil. It blew my mind!!! Bokashi treated manure compost... Bokashi taking the toxicity out of Azomoite really sounds interesting too because Azomite is STACKED, but 35% aluminum oxide. Aluminum attributes to Alzheimers...


Oh nice. Yeah I'm fairly new to organics, there's a good deal of terms I dont know, such as Bokashi lol I assume that's some sort of microbe. What i really need to do is buy a good ROLS book. Also teaming with microbes. Keep telling myself I'm going to find that one and read it but still havent lol


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> Oh nice. Yeah I'm fairly new to organics, there's a good deal of terms I dont know, such as Bokashi lol I assume that's some sort of microbe. What i really need to do is buy a good ROLS book. Also teaming with microbes. Keep telling myself I'm going to find that one and read it but still havent lol


bokashi is something u buy just Google it, it's used for many things, 

and buying a book is great, but honestly you can find most that info here, just read through a few threads! and decide which type of organic route you wanna take, bc their are many!


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## DankTankerous (Nov 5, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> could u answer my question?
> 
> what would happen if I used an air stone in a Reservoir full of em1? is there anything beneficial to be achieved by this? or would it be going in reverse since em1 is anaerobic


Señor @hyroot would be the person to talk to, he is the one who suggested it to me


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## Wetdog (Nov 5, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> No I'm not following anyone's recipe, kind of took everything in from different recipe's and came up with my own make-up with probably around 9 amendments or so and I aim for around 3 cups per cu. ft.
> I've had problems with getting adequate K in my soil though I've noticed, seems there's not much amendment out there that's rich in mostly K, none that I've come across anyway, I've never used green sand though but I'm incorporating it this time.
> How often do you mix your soil after your initial mix? Do you leave the lid on the container completely covered or cracked open?
> The reason I say my soil has went bad before is it has took on a dirty socks, musty stinky smell along with lost that bit of heat that you feel when the soil is cooking.
> I'll look into those giant cloth pots. That's not a bad idea.


That 'musty' smell usually has two underlying causes, both related. First, a lack of drainage holes in whatever the mix is stored in and no air holes/loose lid on top.

The main reason is a lack of aeration (perlite), and not enough O2 in the mix. I start with ~40% perlite and usually end up with 50%+ aeration with the addition of pine bark mulch and bio char. That dirty sock smell is caused by anerobic bacteria which flourish in a oxygen deprived environment.

Easy to fix, just dump it out and let air get to it to get it right as rain. The anaerobic bacteria will die/go dormant and the aerobic bacteria will flourish as soon as air gets to it.

BTW, rice hulls are not really good for aeration. They work fine for a few months, then decompose down to a soggy mess that is the opposite of whats needed for aeration.

K is hard to come by in organics. I use kelp meal and greensand in my mixes, but also grow comfrey (AKA land kelp), that is really rich in K, even higher than kelp meal in K. Either the Bocking 14 or 4 cultivars are prefered. I mainly use it as worm food along with coffee grounds and top dress with the resulting VC. But the kelp meal and greensand compliment each other very well on their own. I add both @1cup/cf, along with the same amount of Azomite.

Once I've done my initial mixing and it goes into whatever I'm using for storage, I don't do any further mixing or turning of the mix. With adequate drainage/air and enough aeration in the mix, I've found there is no need and it's just extra work. Won't hurt if you do, but it's your call.

Wet


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 6, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> That 'musty' smell usually has two underlying causes, both related. First, a lack of drainage holes in whatever the mix is stored in and no air holes/loose lid on top.
> 
> The main reason is a lack of aeration (perlite), and not enough O2 in the mix. I start with ~40% perlite and usually end up with 50%+ aeration with the addition of pine bark mulch and bio char. That dirty sock smell is caused by anerobic bacteria which flourish in a oxygen deprived environment.
> 
> ...


Thanks!!! This post was incredibly helpful.
I've never used azomite, do you consider that a necessity?
I've been a little light on the perlite a few times and just figured I would add it in after the fact before actually using the soil. I bet that's where I had went wrong. Do you recommend that if I stick with these 33 gallon barrels that I drill holes into them everywhere? I fill them about half full, little bit more at most and have been leaving the lid cracked open slightly during cooking.
Also, I have a bunch of soil laid out on the floor trying to get it to dry out because it's been stored for a long time in closed containers and I was afraid that it went anaerobic. It's been laid out several days and I mix it around once a day, probably 5 inches thick of soil and it's just slightly moist but not completely dry. Do I need to let that completely dry out before I remix and use it again?


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## projectinfo (Nov 7, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> This is a "Soil Savvy" test and it is a solubility test, so it is showing lock-out. I'm always chasing the trace/micronutients. Last time, it was Cu, Zn, and Mn. I was also using Cu, Mn, Zn sulfate instead of azomite and bokashi. This time, I'm chasing Boron... I really think that 'kashi is going to help with this...
> View attachment 4227827
> 
> This is the test where the K is supposed to be 2x the amount "target area". Also, having excess on this test is OK as long as nothing is too low, like lock-out from something else being too high, the Antagonist relationship.


 One thread , same soil test picture five times. Lol dont use rabbit shit bud


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## Wetdog (Nov 7, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> Thanks!!! This post was incredibly helpful.
> I've never used azomite, do you consider that a necessity?
> I've been a little light on the perlite a few times and just figured I would add it in after the fact before actually using the soil. I bet that's where I had went wrong. Do you recommend that if I stick with these 33 gallon barrels that I drill holes into them everywhere? I fill them about half full, little bit more at most and have been leaving the lid cracked open slightly during cooking.
> Also, I have a bunch of soil laid out on the floor trying to get it to dry out because it's been stored for a long time in closed containers and I was afraid that it went anaerobic. It's been laid out several days and I mix it around once a day, probably 5 inches thick of soil and it's just slightly moist but not completely dry. Do I need to let that completely dry out before I remix and use it again?


For the 32/33 gallon cans I normally just do the holes in the bottom for drainage since the lids are loose enough for air to get in and I don't drill them. IDK about holes *everywhere* since I've not done it, but some in the sides should provide more air to the mix. You would need to experiment to see how well that works/doesn't work for you. I can only offer guesses on that.

No, you don't need to let that mix completely dry out. Getting air to it was the important thing and you did that by spreading it out on the floor. Moist is fine. I would add more aeration while you have it spread out and easy to get to.

Can you find pine bark mulch in your area? It's been a part of my mix for over 40 years. It brings quite a bit to the table and I won't make a mix without it. This is bark, NOT wood chips and should be around fingernail size, not large. *I* add it at ~10% of the mix much like biochar.

You certainly need minerals and trace elements for your mix. I've stopped using rock dusts like granite and now only use Azomite and greensand for inputs. Greensand is a slow release, but lightning fast compared to granite or basalt that are super hard and really slow to break down. Greensand is a sedimentary rock, Azomite is a clay and both weather/release much faster than ignious (?) rock such as basalt or granite. 

Kelp meal and comfrey both are excellent mineral and trace element sources.

No, Azomite isn't a necessity, but it does contain everything all in one package. The name says it all. A to Z Of Minerals Including Trace Elements. Using the Azomite and greensand and kelp meal and comfrey gives me 4 different sources of minerals and trace elements along with 4 different release rates. Micros are not an issue.

HTH

Wet


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 7, 2018)

I can vouch for the azamite I absolutely love it! I went about 3 runs without it, once I finally got it I noticed a big difference! it could have been from a mix of a few things but regardless I never leave it out!


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 8, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> For the 32/33 gallon cans I normally just do the holes in the bottom for drainage since the lids are loose enough for air to get in and I don't drill them. IDK about holes *everywhere* since I've not done it, but some in the sides should provide more air to the mix. You would need to experiment to see how well that works/doesn't work for you. I can only offer guesses on that.
> 
> No, you don't need to let that mix completely dry out. Getting air to it was the important thing and you did that by spreading it out on the floor. Moist is fine. I would add more aeration while you have it spread out and easy to get to.
> 
> ...


So informative, I love it.
I'm sure I can find some pine bark at the local garden store. I'll look into that and the azomite. I've got a bag of "red cedar blend" appears to be all shredded up bark. I've just never used it because it was stored outside when I bought it and I'm afraid it might have bugs in it.
I've bought two bags of large perlite I'm going to add in too.

I guess now would be a good time to ask, I bought this product called "Mykos" , it's a mycorrhizal inoculant, which I know is a good thing, but I dont really know what that means? lol but I like having that arsenal of stuff to kickstart all the micro life within the soil. I have those Mycos, recharge(microbes) and Biosis(more microbes). Do you recommend anything else to add to this?


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## Lordhooha (Nov 8, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> I can vouch for the azamite I absolutely love it! I went about 3 runs without it, once I finally got it I noticed a big difference! it could have been from a mix of a few things but regardless I never leave it out!


Azomite is good to add to any soil.


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## Lordhooha (Nov 8, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> So informative, I love it.
> I'm sure I can find some pine bark at the local garden store. I'll look into that and the azomite. I've got a bag of "red cedar blend" appears to be all shredded up bark. I've just never used it because it was stored outside when I bought it and I'm afraid it might have bugs in it.
> I've bought two bags of large perlite I'm going to add in too.
> 
> I guess now would be a good time to ask, I bought this product called "Mykos" , it's a mycorrhizal inoculant, which I know is a good thing, but I dont really know what that means? lol but I like having that arsenal of stuff to kickstart all the micro life within the soil. I have those Mycos, recharge(microbes) and Biosis(more microbes). Do you recommend anything else to add to this?View attachment 4229356


I like me some recharge it makes for some happy roots I roll all my clones in it.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 8, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> So informative, I love it.
> I'm sure I can find some pine bark at the local garden store. I'll look into that and the azomite. I've got a bag of "red cedar blend" appears to be all shredded up bark. I've just never used it because it was stored outside when I bought it and I'm afraid it might have bugs in it.
> I've bought two bags of large perlite I'm going to add in too.
> 
> I guess now would be a good time to ask, I bought this product called "Mykos" , it's a mycorrhizal inoculant, which I know is a good thing, but I dont really know what that means? lol but I like having that arsenal of stuff to kickstart all the micro life within the soil. I have those Mycos, recharge(microbes) and Biosis(more microbes). Do you recommend anything else to add to this?View attachment 4229356


OK so first as for the mykos it's helps the roots grow better, basically there is more but thats the dummy version! I use it at all transplants! I also use azos(also made by extreme gardening) and it is a nitrogen fixer, I also use that for every transplant! there is a lot of ppl that swear by these two and I'm very happy with using them

as for the recharge, from growers choice I just recently got some of it, from what I can tell it replaces my compost teas very well, I still use a Lil of both but I think it's a nice addition to work into my system! Great thing about organics, less is more and it's kinda hard to over do something unless your going crazy!


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 8, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> So informative, I love it.
> I'm sure I can find some pine bark at the local garden store. I'll look into that and the azomite. I've got a bag of "red cedar blend" appears to be all shredded up bark. I've just never used it because it was stored outside when I bought it and I'm afraid it might have bugs in it.
> I've bought two bags of large perlite I'm going to add in too.
> 
> I guess now would be a good time to ask, I bought this product called "Mykos" , it's a mycorrhizal inoculant, which I know is a good thing, but I dont really know what that means? lol but I like having that arsenal of stuff to kickstart all the micro life within the soil. I have those Mycos, recharge(microbes) and Biosis(more microbes). Do you recommend anything else to add to this?View attachment 4229356


here is a thread that I just started working on, and in it I use my organic living soil in a sip pot! you may find some useful info in there and may like the process, check it out!

https://www.rollitup.org/t/greens-gorilla-glue-4.979073/


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 8, 2018)

and one more thing I rotate into my waterings in a regular smart pot is aloe and coconut powder into a thing of water! this feeds some of the life in the soil! I've found when u take turns mixing in all these different methods, you can really cover all your bases, everything has a reason and a job to do! just remember less is more!


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## crimsonecho (Nov 8, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> So informative, I love it.
> I'm sure I can find some pine bark at the local garden store. I'll look into that and the azomite. I've got a bag of "red cedar blend" appears to be all shredded up bark. I've just never used it because it was stored outside when I bought it and I'm afraid it might have bugs in it.
> I've bought two bags of large perlite I'm going to add in too.
> 
> I guess now would be a good time to ask, I bought this product called "Mykos" , it's a mycorrhizal inoculant, which I know is a good thing, but I dont really know what that means? lol but I like having that arsenal of stuff to kickstart all the micro life within the soil. I have those Mycos, recharge(microbes) and Biosis(more microbes). Do you recommend anything else to add to this?View attachment 4229356


You are probably aware of this but myco needs to make contact with the roots to be effective, so sprinkling some directly at the roots during transplant is the most effective way. Also if you are feeding much available phosphate, the colonization will be reduced. (You probably not tho being a “synergistic” grower)
Never used the other two, i do teas instead. I also add diatomaceous earth to my soil mix, its basically silica. Neem meal is very good too, it has nitrogen fixing capabilities. Also it kills and repels pests when amended into the soil.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 8, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> @hyroot,
> Read the thread and currently re reading your posts specifically, i foundout you can search within a thread for a username. Cuts out alot of.. . well . these kind of posts


Thank you for this I had no idea but dam sure will put it use!


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## Bugeye (Nov 9, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> So informative, I love it.
> I'm sure I can find some pine bark at the local garden store. I'll look into that and the azomite. I've got a bag of "red cedar blend" appears to be all shredded up bark. I've just never used it because it was stored outside when I bought it and I'm afraid it might have bugs in it.
> I've bought two bags of large perlite I'm going to add in too.
> 
> I guess now would be a good time to ask, I bought this product called "Mykos" , it's a mycorrhizal inoculant, which I know is a good thing, but I dont really know what that means? lol but I like having that arsenal of stuff to kickstart all the micro life within the soil. I have those Mycos, recharge(microbes) and Biosis(more microbes). Do you recommend anything else to add to this?View attachment 4229356


Mykos is a synergistic fungus, not a microbe bacteria. Read up on myco fungi, amazing stuff. Get this stuff working, add a tea or two, and that is the secret to explosive organic soil growth.


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 10, 2018)

Greenthumbs256 said:


> OK so first as for the mykos it's helps the roots grow better, basically there is more but thats the dummy version! I use it at all transplants! I also use azos(also made by extreme gardening) and it is a nitrogen fixer, I also use that for every transplant! there is a lot of ppl that swear by these two and I'm very happy with using them
> 
> as for the recharge, from growers choice I just recently got some of it, from what I can tell it replaces my compost teas very well, I still use a Lil of both but I think it's a nice addition to work into my system! Great thing about organics, less is more and it's kinda hard to over do something unless your going crazy!


You mention a "nitrogen fixer",
Do you mean to tell me there's a product out there that can take an N-tox soil and condition it and make it bearable for the plant, just by adding that to the soil? 

I appreciate everybody's input, slowly learning.


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## SirSquashalot (Nov 10, 2018)

Lordhooha said:


> I like me some recharge it makes for some happy roots I roll all my clones in it.


Yeah I have a handful of seedlings 8 days in, and I gave them recharge with their first real watering about 4 days in and just noticed today some pretty hefty root development already through my clear solo cups.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 10, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> You mention a "nitrogen fixer",
> Do you mean to tell me there's a product out there that can take an N-tox soil and condition it and make it bearable for the plant, just by adding that to the soil?
> 
> I appreciate everybody's input, slowly learning.


I'm not saying it's some kinda magic pill or some shit, but that is what azos is, I can't really give you a ton of info on it unfortunately, but maybe someone else here could explain it better, or even just goggle I'm sure quite a few post will pop up and be able to explain this better. but yes azos is a nitrogen fixer!


----------



## stoned-monkey (Nov 10, 2018)

Nitrogen fixing bacteria use nirtogen from the air and combine it with oxygen or hydrogen to form a plant available nirtogen. I dont think it fixes nitrogen toxic soil. If thats your issue mix with some base soil to dilute it.

Cover crops such as clover and legumes are nitrogen fixers too. 

Btw i am no expert just a guy who finds this stuff really cool.


----------



## stoned-monkey (Nov 10, 2018)

@hyroot have you tried using marijuana or hemp growth tips (and/or males)in ferments? I am thinking i could use the parts i trim off the plant as it grows could be better used then just compost.


----------



## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 10, 2018)

hey guys if yall YouTube Alaska's natural canna, this dude has a few good videos on the exact way I'm running my sips, they are short vids but a good watch!


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## MustangStudFarm (Nov 10, 2018)

stoned-monkey said:


> @hyroot have you tried using marijuana or hemp growth tips (and/or males)in ferments? I am thinking i could use the parts i trim off the plant as it grows could be better used then just compost.


I just used a tomato plant, it was about to freeze and the plant was going to die anyways. I thought that tomatoes are supposed to be very similar to MJ anyways.

The two videos that I watched were talking about banana flowers, but who has access to them?


----------



## SSGrower (Nov 10, 2018)

stoned-monkey said:


> @hyroot have you tried using marijuana or hemp growth tips (and/or males)in ferments? I am thinking i could use the parts i trim off the plant as it grows could be better used then just compost.


Ive used whole plant, roots and all, standard practice would be to use the growing tips. Ive also done sst with cannabis seeds.


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## Greenthumbs256 (Nov 10, 2018)

SirSquashalot said:


> You mention a "nitrogen fixer",
> Do you mean to tell me there's a product out there that can take an N-tox soil and condition it and make it bearable for the plant, just by adding that to the soil?
> 
> I appreciate everybody's input, slowly learning.





stoned-monkey said:


> Nitrogen fixing bacteria use nirtogen from the air and combine it with oxygen or hydrogen to form a plant available nirtogen. I dont think it fixes nitrogen toxic soil. If thats your issue mix with some base soil to dilute it.
> 
> Cover crops such as clover and legumes are nitrogen fixers too.
> 
> Btw i am no expert just a guy who finds this stuff really cool.


hey guys I found this info on azos, it's a good read and I learned a few things, you may wanna know too! here the link, I also snapped two screenshots just in case yall are lazy like me and don't really care, but the link has ALOT more info! I was just curious after you had said that, and figured ya guys might wanna know as well!

https://waytogrow.net/blogs/articles/5-ass-kicking-applications-for-azospirillum


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## projectinfo (Dec 6, 2018)

Hows it going @hyroot


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## projectinfo (Dec 7, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I was going to make a tutorial video but experimenting withh othe recipes first. Here is the recipe I started with.
> 
> citrus ferment recipe
> 
> ...


Hey how did your citrus labs ferment turn out?

Im going to use your original recipe.

Might expiriment and throw some feels in some labs. Its just fpe right?

Im looking to use it as an ipm


----------



## hyroot (Dec 7, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Hey how did your citrus labs ferment turn out?
> 
> Im going to use your original recipe.
> 
> ...


I let it go 30 days. It smelled like a homeless mans asshole in a dumpster fire. I tossed it. I went back to the original recipe wnd it works. Just make sure you heat up water to 90 degrees before adding citrus ferment to water for foliar. The warmer water helps improve its efficacy


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## hyroot (Dec 7, 2018)

I made a new batch of wcap. I didn't pulverize the bones this time. After it was done fermenting I filtered it through 4 layers of natural chemex coffee filters 3 times. Then i pulverized left over bones and added them to the worm bins.


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## projectinfo (Dec 7, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I made a new batch of wcap. I didn't pulverize the bones this time. After it was done fermenting I filtered it through 4 layers of natural chemex coffee filters 3 times. Then i pulverized left over bones and added them to the worm bins.
> 
> View attachment 4245027


Mustang was saying wcap is no good, the high phosphorus will lead to low brix levels . What do you think buddy?

Also im still making it fuckit 

Can i use apple cider vinigar instead of brown rice vinigar?


----------



## hyroot (Dec 7, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Mustang was saying wcap is no good, the high phosphorus will lead to low brix levels . What do you think buddy?
> 
> Also im still making it fuckit
> 
> Can i use apple cider vinigar instead of brown rice vinigar?


I read that. He didn't seem to understand that it's for foliar only and used at the last 2 weeks of veg and first 2 weeks of flower only. He kept talking about watering the soil with it. I wouldn't ever water soil with wcap being that it's acetic. Also were only using 1 tbsp per gallon. It's also soluble phos. Wcap stands for water soluble calcium phophate

I have an ogkb in veg that was showing phos def. After 2 foliar applications the phos deficiency was remedied.

Yes you can use apple cider vinegar. You can also use white vinegar. I used white vinegar for this last wcap ferment.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Dec 7, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Mustang was saying wcap is no good, the high phosphorus will lead to low brix levels . What do you think buddy?
> 
> Also im still making it fuckit
> 
> Can i use apple cider vinigar instead of brown rice vinigar?


I just wanted to make sure that you knew what you were doing. I don't ever claim to be an expert. Being used as a foliar wouldn't lock-out nutrients in the soil. That is where the low brix comes from, locking out micronutrients. I don't understand the product called "Mammoth P" either. I'm just leary of using P inputs. I'm here to learn above all else, so I don't mind being corrected.


----------



## hyroot (Dec 7, 2018)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I just wanted to make sure that you knew what you were doing. I don't ever claim to be an expert. Being used as a foliar wouldn't lock-out nutrients in the soil. That is where the low brix comes from, locking out micronutrients. I don't understand the product called "Mammoth P" either. I'm just leary of using P inputs. I'm here to learn above all else, so I don't mind being corrected.



Mammoth p just solubilizes phos making it available for uptake. Since phos in soil and bottle nutes doesn't completely break down or isn t readily available. They say its 4 specific microbes cultured in alflafa. I know a former employee of mammoth microbes who says its just an alfalfa tea...

You can make.your own phos solubilizing bacterial compost or castings by composting the left over charred bones after straining the wcap.


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## MustangStudFarm (Dec 7, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Mammoth p just solubilizes phos making it available for uptake. Since phos in soil and bottle nutes doesn't completely break down or isn t readily available. They say its 4 specific microbes cultured in alflafa. I know a former employee of mammoth microbes who says its just an alfalfa tea...
> 
> You can make.your own phos solubilizing bacterial compost or castings by composting the left over charred bones after straining the wcap.


I've been using the "soil savvy" test, which is a solubility test, and I have always been abundant in phosphorus. The only P input that I use is crab meal and I am on the high side of P. I'm following Clackamas coots recipe.

Man, if you want to talk about low Brix levels then you should see a boron deficiency. I'm always chasing micronutrients deficiency, but I also started using Azomite which appears to have a healthy dose of boron, zinc, and manganese.


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## projectinfo (Dec 7, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I read that. He didn't seem to understand that it's for foliar only and used at the last 2 weeks of veg and first 2 weeks of flower only. He kept talking about watering the soil with it. I wouldn't ever water soil with wcap being that it's acetic. Also were only using 1 tbsp per gallon. It's also soluble phos. Wcap stands for water soluble calcium phophate
> 
> I have an ogkb in veg that was showing phos def. After 2 foliar applications the phos deficiency was remedied.
> 
> Yes you can use apple cider vinegar. You can also use white vinegar. I used white vinegar for this last wcap ferment.


 Awesome thanks bud


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## bearded.beaver (Dec 8, 2018)

Really good thread. I will be following this for sure


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## projectinfo (Dec 12, 2018)

@hyroot @DonTesla @Ecompost 

You guys ever have a problem with soil mites or beneficial mites crawling up and eating your plant ?

Or so i just have spider mites ?

They look like my soil mites but their up on my leaves fucking shit up. 

Any suggestions to keep these little bastards in check or just keep up with the foliar ipms


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## projectinfo (Dec 12, 2018)

Maybe i should bait them down to the soil by adding dry leafs i have as mulch.

I recently added a 2 inch castings layer and bokashi/barly then myceliul mat then a little more castings.. I tell you that definitly got rid of my gnats .


But not i think my soil mites from the castings are having a hay day goin up the plant cause theres no mulch for them


Little white mites


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## projectinfo (Dec 12, 2018)

Best i can do ... You can zoom in a bit


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## hyroot (Dec 12, 2018)

They're thrips.


Beauveria bassiana will systemically wipe them out for good.

Swiirski mites will eat the thrips and eggs.

The citrus ferment foliar will kill them on the plant on contact


Protease enzymes will kill them in the soil.

Nematodes will kill them in the soil.


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## projectinfo (Dec 12, 2018)

hyroot said:


> They're thrips.
> 
> 
> Beauveria bassiana will systemically wipe them out for good.
> ...




Thanks i will look into all of this


They dont jump or fly yet .very slow.
No slime or poops on the leaves

Could i lay plastic to disrupt the life cycle?

I orderd the fungus, nems, and swarzskiis

My citrus ferment has only been going a week.. 

I have sm90 but they dont seem to mind that


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## projectinfo (Dec 13, 2018)

Those protease enzymes Their just weightloss pills ?

You just gind em up , water them in?


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## hyroot (Dec 13, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Those protease enzymes Their just weightloss pills ?
> 
> You just gind em up , water them in?


Slf 100 is protease enzymes. They're also found in seed sprouts but not isolated.


Weight loss pills are mostly caffeine among other additives.


----------



## Polyuro (Dec 13, 2018)

Hello all, just received sip boxes, bu's Malibu compost, "peat" based potting soil(emailed supplier to be exact), em1, bokashi and dolomite. I want to starta cooking but the mix seems lacking more goodness after reading this thread. Any suggestions?


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## ShLUbY (Dec 13, 2018)

Polyuro said:


> Hello all, just received sip boxes, bu's Malibu compost, "peat" based potting soil(emailed supplier to be exact), em1, bokashi and dolomite. I want to starta cooking but the mix seems lacking more goodness after reading this thread. Any suggestions?


neem meal, crab meal, kelp meal, gypsum, alfalfa meal, langebeinite


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## projectinfo (Dec 14, 2018)

Any idea what those are ?

I also have alot of little white crawlers going around the edge of my pots. 

And theres a few slight bigger darker spider loojing ones that run past them . 

Also noticed today some little very small black bugs on my flowering plants today. Cant find my joulers loupe tho :/


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## AllThingsGreen (Dec 14, 2018)

Anybody here doing ROLS and growing High Brix ?

I’m looking for a soil recipe that’ll give the widest spectrum of vitamins, minerals, and proteins.

I’m currently growing seedlings (~28 days old) in super soil/roots organic (1 gal smart pot) and well..I think my mix is way way too hot. It smells like ammonia and pee. Holds water forever (12-16 oz per pot will last 7+ days), visibly burning my plants, and I just saw a gnat this morning when I opened up the tent. The plants are still growing, but man..2 weeks post transplant and I’m having all kinds of (albeit minor) issues 

I’m not expecting ROLS w/ High Brix to be a silver bullet, but damnit the soil I got just ain’t it.

So I want to start another mix ROLS and ferment it for the recommended 4 weeks and then transplant out. I got the original recipe, but wondering if any successful High Brix guys have a recipe for amendments.

Thanks in advance for you help!


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## Wetdog (Dec 14, 2018)

Just from the smell and watering comments it sure sounds like you are seriously lacking in aeration/drainage. My starting point for aeration is 40% perlite and gets close to 50% with other aeration amendments.

I would take care of that issue first before anything else because nothing is going to work right in a too dense soil that is soggy and lacking oxygen.

Wet


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## AllThingsGreen (Dec 14, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> Just from the smell and watering comments it sure sounds like you are seriously lacking in aeration/drainage. My starting point for aeration is 40% perlite and gets close to 50% with other aeration amendments.
> 
> I would take care of that issue first before anything else because nothing is going to work right in a too dense soil that is soggy and lacking oxygen.
> 
> Wet


It’s crazy because their is a ton of perlite in riots organic original and there’s a bit of it in the super soil mix (Kind soil). I’ve been reading that perlite rises up, so I’m afraid that most of my perlite has migrated to the top portion of my soil. What are some ideas for amending aeration/drainage to a plant that’s already been potted ?


----------



## Wetdog (Dec 14, 2018)

AllThingsGreen said:


> It’s crazy because their is a ton of perlite in riots organic original and there’s a bit of it in the super soil mix (Kind soil). I’ve been reading that perlite rises up, so I’m afraid that most of my perlite has migrated to the top portion of my soil. What are some ideas for amending aeration/drainage to a plant that’s already been potted ?


Perlite will float, but it doesn't "migrate", that's just internet BS as is the "it breaks down into dust and sinks to the bottom like concrete". So... It both migrates upward AND sinks to the bottom !? Talented stuff, huh? After using it for 45 years or so, I've never seen either happen.

I have zero ideas for adding aeration to an already potted plant since it needs to be mixed globally in the mix.  It's not going to mix by itself. But in 1gal pots? Add some to some more mix to correct and then transplant, or remove the plant and correct the mix it's in.

Bagged soils have pretty much the least amount of perlite they can get away with adding to cut costs. You add organic matter in the form of amendments and that least amount becomes not sufficient right quick. In larger pots with more mass and volume it gets even worse.

Good luck!

Wet


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2018)

Wetdog said:


> Perlite will float, but it doesn't "migrate", that's just internet BS as is the "it breaks down into dust and sinks to the bottom like concrete". So... It both migrates upward AND sinks to the bottom !? Talented stuff, huh? After using it for 45 years or so, I've never seen either happen.
> 
> I have zero ideas for adding aeration to an already potted plant since it needs to be mixed globally in the mix. It's not going to mix by itself. But in 1gal pots? Add some to some more mix to correct and then transplant, or remove the plant and correct the mix it's in.
> 
> ...


When it turn to dust it doesn't sink. It just remains for the most part and clogs soil. I've had it happen several times. Yes perlite does float up to a point each time you water and the soil loosens up until.you have watered enough times to compact the soil... the breaking down into powder dust happens much sooner... That's why I stopped using perlite 5 years ago. I use garden pumice instead.


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2018)

AllThingsGreen said:


> Anybody here doing ROLS and growing High Brix ?
> 
> I’m looking for a soil recipe that’ll give the widest spectrum of vitamins, minerals, and proteins.
> 
> ...



You want high brix. Add basalt rock dusts to your soil and feed with lab and ffe and sst. 

Brix are the sugar and mineral content of the plant.

Ffe and lab recipes are towards the beginning of this thread.


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## AllThingsGreen (Dec 14, 2018)

So how should I handle the next few weeks ? I would like to avoid re-potting, but will if I have to. Could I water with less water a little more frequently and get by ? @hyroot if you were in the same situation what would you do ?


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## hyroot (Dec 14, 2018)

AllThingsGreen said:


> So how should I handle the next few weeks ? I would like to avoid re-potting, but will if I have to. Could I water with less water a little more frequently and get by ? @hyroot if you were in the same situation what would you do ?


I would water less. No point in saturating if there's no roots to uptake water. 

When I first start seedlings. I have them in party cups or 2 inch pots. You don't want to go larger because of the root tap. At first i only water the cups once a week. Then every few days. Then transplant into 1 gals once the roots fill out the cup. Then to final pots. Sometimes I will transplant into 2 or 3 gals if I have to veg longer before I can move them into final pots. 

My rule of thumb has always been 16 oz of water per gallon of soil.

Lab or em1 will kill the anaerobic pathogens creating that smell.


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## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 15, 2018)

Thanks for all the info guys. Super valuable knowledge. I've been organic since day one but the ferments have always kind of been a little intimidating. Idk why now that i read through this thread and see how easy it is. So you have convinced me lol. I got a banana ffj fermenting right now but im unsure about one thing. Is there a point in flower when its too late to use it? Some of my plants are just past week 6 and they're 9-10 week strains. And the ffj wont be ready till monday so they'll be closer to week 7. I feel like at this point it wont really have much effect or am i wrong?


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Thanks for all the info guys. Super valuable knowledge. I've been organic since day one but the ferments have always kind of been a little intimidating. Idk why now that i read through this thread and see how easy it is. So you have convinced me lol. I got a banana ffj fermenting right now but im unsure about one thing. Is there a point in flower when its too late to use it? Some of my plants are just past week 6 and they're 9-10 week strains. And the ffj wont be ready till monday so they'll be closer to week 7. I feel like at this point it wont really have much effect or am i wrong?


Don't use lab past week 5. It will prolong finishing. If used past week 5

Knf ferments and lacto based ferments meant for flowering you can use til the end. I water with plain water the last week. 

If starting to use towards the end of flower. You won't see much difference... Maybe a slight increase in trichome production and slightly higher brix levels / terp levels

It takes a few generations of running clones to see a major difference


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## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 15, 2018)

hyroot said:


> Don't use lab past week 5. It will prolong finishing. If used past week 5
> 
> Knf ferments and lacto based ferments meant for flowering you can use til the end. I water with plain water the last week.
> 
> ...


Gotcha. Good to know. Its just banana, brown sugar and EM-1. Should i have used lab instead of EM-1? I know they're similar but not the same. Also how long do these stay good for? Once its done should i seal the lid and put it in the fridge? Sorry for all the questions dude thanks for your patience lol


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## hyroot (Dec 15, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Gotcha. Good to know. Its just banana, brown sugar and EM-1. Should i have used lab instead of EM-1? I know they're similar but not the same. Also how long do these stay good for? Once its done should i seal the lid and put it in the fridge? Sorry for all the questions dude thanks for your patience lol


I use activated lab (aem). You shouldn't mix sugar and em1 in a ferment. 

The sugar creates osmostic pressure pulling hormones and terps from the fruits.

Em1 and labs break down material into micronutrients and macronutrients. 

2 completely different processes. 

Em1 contains purple non sulfur bacteria (pnsb) and lab does not.


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 15, 2018)

hyroot said:


> I use activated lab (aem). You shouldn't mix sugar and em1 in a ferment.
> 
> The sugar creates osmostic pressure pulling hormones and terps from the fruits.
> 
> ...


Word. So i should toss it and start over with just brown sugar and banana?


----------



## bearded.beaver (Dec 15, 2018)

I don't think you need to toss it. Chris trump and drake on YouTube say it should last a while if you have a lot of brown sugar it. Check out both of their videos.


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 15, 2018)

bearded.beaver said:


> I don't think you need to toss it. Chris trump and drake on YouTube say it should last a while if you have a lot of brown sugar it. Check out both of their videos.


I have plenty of brown sugar in it but thats not why im tossing it. Hyroot said not to mix em1 and sugar in a ferment. Which is exactly what i did so thats why im tossing it.


----------



## bearded.beaver (Dec 16, 2018)

I understand now. I read @hyroot post about that, I hadn't heard about that before so I Google'd why and from what I understand about that is that EM1 has mostly anaerobic bacteria and the sugar would feed other life in there and throw the balance off which could lead to pathogens proliferating instead of the ones we want. I could be totally wrong but from what I read, that's my understanding.

There is just so much info out there that is contradicting. It's nice to be able to put out what you think and have other people tell you if they think the same way. 
No more fake growing news


----------



## TheSpaceFarm (Dec 16, 2018)

bearded.beaver said:


> I understand now. I read @hyroot post about that, I hadn't heard about that before so I Google'd why and from what I understand about that is that EM1 has mostly anaerobic bacteria and the sugar would feed other life in there and throw the balance off which could lead to pathogens proliferating instead of the ones we want. I could be totally wrong but from what I read, that's my understanding.
> 
> There is just so much info out there that is contradicting. It's nice to be able to put out what you think and have other people tell you if they think the same way.
> No more fake growing news


Word, i feel ya about the contradictory info. And thats pretty much what i gathered from my research into it. Maybe we read the same thing lol. Teraganix website has a ferment recipe using the em1 but its different. I must have read that recipe at some point and subconsciously interchanged them. Idk but i def trust hyroot tho so i ditched it and started over. Also making labs and im gonna ditch the em1 after i finish this bottle. Its just so expensive and lab is basically free.


----------



## outliergenetix (Dec 16, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> View attachment 4248963
> 
> Any idea what those are ?
> 
> ...


i'd like to bump this ^^^


----------



## Ecompost (Dec 19, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> @hyroot @DonTesla @Ecompost
> 
> You guys ever have a problem with soil mites or beneficial mites crawling up and eating your plant ?
> 
> ...


Silica
You could make yourself a SiO2 nutrient using diatomaceous earth, lime. and sulphur with some water and a bit of effort 
Once i learned how to water properly, i stopped getting these mites buddy, but dont panic, everyone has had them. If they say they havent, they are probably lying.

Biological resonance is everywhere after all, just ask those surfers that have no legs after being bitten by a shark in the ocean. If you are in the wrong place for your vibration, then you are going feel the pain, this applies to plants being subjected to predation on any level. If we cant harmonize the environment in which we have planted our prize, then we may have in fact, just planted an offering.


----------



## Ecompost (Dec 19, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> View attachment 4248963
> 
> Any idea what those are ?
> 
> ...


they look like Oribatid mites but I am not a biological entomologist so defer to more accurate responses.
If they are Oribatid mites then you have composting occurring in your pots, which means you soil isnt ready because it hasnt been harmonized and so stabiized by humifying microbes, thus you are suffering the consequences of resonance and you have next to no hope of solving this riddle. You are taking part in the real time system of composting and you have put living plants in the mix. It will be a battle I suspect. Sorry i cant be more positive, but sometimes its better to just cut our losses and start again wiser and less vulnerable


----------



## Ecompost (Dec 19, 2018)

TheSpaceFarm said:


> Word, i feel ya about the contradictory info. And thats pretty much what i gathered from my research into it. Maybe we read the same thing lol. Teraganix website has a ferment recipe using the em1 but its different. I must have read that recipe at some point and subconsciously interchanged them. Idk but i def trust hyroot tho so i ditched it and started over. Also making labs and im gonna ditch the em1 after i finish this bottle. Its just so expensive and lab is basically free.


 I like this progression  As peasant farmers, we should consider the interchangeability of the things we read about, with the plants and things we actually find around us. That our world is so ridiculous a single person can claim ownership of biology...pfft...dont forget to pay the lady...... yeah right  keep learning and sharing, one day we will be free


----------



## Ecompost (Dec 19, 2018)

AllThingsGreen said:


> It’s crazy because their is a ton of perlite in riots organic original and there’s a bit of it in the super soil mix (Kind soil). I’ve been reading that perlite rises up, so I’m afraid that most of my perlite has migrated to the top portion of my soil. What are some ideas for amending aeration/drainage to a plant that’s already been potted ?


Broadfork 

I use rice hulls for aeration, I have tried all sorts, eg nut shells and perlite, clay balls blah but i use hulls because I live near a place they make rice. 
Better to understand the biological and chemical/ electrical reasons for soil compaction rather than find more sources for aeration beyond what you can easily purchase or access. Most of the air is going to be in the top layers of any soil profile and just how deep are your pots anyway?


----------



## Ecompost (Dec 19, 2018)

hyroot said:


> You want high brix. Add basalt rock dusts to your soil and feed with lab and ffe and sst.
> 
> Brix are the sugar and mineral content of the plant.
> 
> Ffe and lab recipes are towards the beginning of this thread.


I think this comes from Harley and NPK industries, among others, who have said publicly that, "plants with high BRIX content, cant be seen by predators", which is more than a little disingenuous with reference the sum total of requirements for plants to become "invisible????" to pest insects, pathogenic molds and so on. 
However, as with any good marketing, it is a likely outcome that, in the event biological harmony has been achieved from seed to harvest, that any plant might also have "High BRIX" as well as having been unmolested


----------



## outliergenetix (Dec 19, 2018)

Ecompost said:


> they look like Oribatid mites but I am not a biological entomologist so defer to more accurate responses.
> If they are Oribatid mites then you have composting occurring in your pots, which means you soil isnt ready because it hasnt been harmonized and so stabiized by humifying microbes, thus you are suffering the consequences of resonance and you have next to no hope of solving this riddle. You are taking part in the real time system of composting and you have put living plants in the mix. It will be a battle I suspect. Sorry i cant be more positive, but sometimes its better to just cut our losses and start again wiser and less vulnerable


i think this may be overstated a bit and i am an admitted "organic" noob, however I have been gardening my whole life both indoors and out. imo before you tell ppl they may need to cull their plants you need to tel them to determine the identity of the pest positively, without that telling anyone to cull their plants is being irresponsible even if you lead with, "I'm not an entomologist".
after identifying the insect or pest then you can asses damage to the plant, if none yet or minimal it is 100% worth trying ot treat the situation, spinosad, soap soakes andmayny many other methods can keep things under control. you will have pests, that is unavoidable, as you said in your other post healthy plants and immune systems is the key to whether they take over. so again treat the pest with some natural pest deterent or killer and treat your plants to silica Trichoderma, chiten etc. to keep the bugs from feasting on sick plants. for example maybe I would add things like spinosad to my ipm or other appropriate solution regarding the indentity of the pest.
***note the same shit that kills bad mites and arthropods kills good ones, the idea is not to have no "bugs" its to keep balance


----------



## Ecompost (Dec 20, 2018)

outliergenetix said:


> i think this may be overstated a bit and i am an admitted "organic" noob, however I have been gardening my whole life both indoors and out. imo before you tell ppl they may need to cull their plants you need to tel them to determine the identity of the pest positively, without that telling anyone to cull their plants is being irresponsible even if you lead with, "I'm not an entomologist".
> after identifying the insect or pest then you can asses damage to the plant, if none yet or minimal it is 100% worth trying ot treat the situation, spinosad, soap soakes andmayny many other methods can keep things under control. you will have pests, that is unavoidable, as you said in your other post healthy plants and immune systems is the key to whether they take over. so again treat the pest with some natural pest deterent or killer and treat your plants to silica Trichoderma, chiten etc. to keep the bugs from feasting on sick plants. for example maybe I would add things like spinosad to my ipm or other appropriate solution regarding the indentity of the pest.
> ***note the same shit that kills bad mites and arthropods kills good ones, the idea is not to have no "bugs" its to keep balance


I never said kill it, I think I said may be think about it, but of course he can if he prefers and has the budget to waste, chase his tail as you suggest, using an ever widening array of products to kill the very signposts he ought to be considering might be trying to teach him something, or pass on a subtle but real message from nature.
I can see you have a product to fix most of your mistakes, so why stop making them right?


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## projectinfo (Dec 22, 2018)

Ecompost said:


> I never said kill it, I think I said may be think about it, but of course he can if he prefers and has the budget to waste, chase his tail as you suggest, using an ever widening array of products to kill the very signposts he ought to be considering might be trying to teach him something, or pass on a subtle but real message from nature.
> I can see you have a product to fix most of your mistakes, so why stop making them right?


 Those were some seeds i put in pro mix. I put some castings on top and some rice hulls for mulch. They must have started composting. Its all good lessoned learned, go easy on the castings lol

Ive got totes of soil that i mixed once so far and dont plan to again . 

It will be about 2months 1 week old soil Hyroots recipe on the first page .


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## Ecompost (Dec 23, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Those were some seeds i put in pro mix. I put some castings on top and some rice hulls for mulch. They must have started composting. Its all good lessoned learned, go easy on the castings lol
> 
> Ive got totes of soil that i mixed once so far and dont plan to again .
> 
> It will be about 2months 1 week old soil Hyroots recipe on the first page .


I havent seen the blend. I dont tend to bother with these elaborate soil mixes, no offense to the creator in this case, who seems like a nice soul, helpful and knowledgeable on growing here. He certainly isn't as blunt as me! Its just that they *all* appear to me, to be a little odd in light of my simple observations of natural grassland soil systems around the world, North and South and everything in between. Eg average organic matter %, mineral composition varience between healthy and unhealthy grassland systems (non farmed), rates of infiltration, average moisture%, pH, average temps and CO2/ O2 burst.

I think rice hulls have a Carbon ratio of about 115. I suspect you may have too much N in the blend elsewhere if these are composting quickly. No disrespect intended, but i wont go back to review the blend you use. I have seen many hundreds of these, super soil/ grow mixes, its not really worth the science imo, of which there is plenty of higher value, not least in truly understanding the mechanisms behind enhancing human chain beneficial plant characters and beyond. After all we are growing medicine here 
If we study nature, and not men, the story of what grows a high quality grassland crop is already resolved with reference suitable environments and or say C/N ratios for grassland crops. I think people over think growing plants in ways that are self distracting, but I do love to see human minds working anyway, and i am not suggesting how I grow is better or worse, its just may be different to many here and the same as many too. 
I treat compost as a soil additive, not a growing medium. I use local soils, real soil, eg clay, sand, silt, local bedrock, biology and so I limit my added organic content to be within a natural percentage overall, matching C/N for the crop I want to grow. I understand that every input i make, has consequences for the community, so i try not to add things that arent already in the system, eg tomorrows organic matter is today's residue.
My idea of organics, is to depend more faithfully in the systems of God/ Mother nature, and do my very best to mimic what is already working without human interference. 

Added disclaimer: I dont grow indoors anymore, I dont need to because i am lucky to live in a country where the production of this crop is made easier and is much the less consumptive because i dont pay for power or add extra carbon waste using electricity, but I used to before i migrated to a zone more preferential to my biology, and that of MJ too  and so i understand the challenges of trying to replicate nature on a budget, without getting arrested. 
I do use Rice Hulls myself in potting mixes that require free draining media, so I am not bashing the use of these or anything people use, lots of things are seen to work in the growing world, but this is pony credit, if we consider "life itself" is more determined to grow, than we have capacity to fuck things up. Our lives may not be so lucky as the sum total here however.

Cornell always had the best resource for understanding compost and composting. No use trying to reinvent wheels imo, what we have discovered is a small fraction of what we might know, so i am not bashing soil mixoligists, 
http://www.compost.css.cornell.edu/calc/cn_ratio.html


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## Ecompost (Dec 23, 2018)

projectinfo said:


> Those were some seeds i put in pro mix. I put some castings on top and some rice hulls for mulch. They must have started composting. Its all good lessoned learned, go easy on the castings lol
> 
> Ive got totes of soil that i mixed once so far and dont plan to again .
> 
> It will be about 2months 1 week old soil Hyroots recipe on the first page .


by the way, you can use your rice hulls to make something long known by many peasant farmers around the world as waterglass (Silica). I am sure you will find a method online to follow re how to make it, its easy, just a few commonly located things needed equipment wise. Access to hulls is the hardest part of it 
I found this pdf quickly, I havent read it as I already have a method I learned from a wonderful Colombian farmer, but it probably explains how and why if too scientific for many.
http://www.sphinxsai.com/2014/RTBCE/5/(4337-4345) 014.pdf

if you are struggling and want to make it, let me know, I will share my uncomplicated by science language method.

Anyway the message is that i use stuff you use, I just may be use it differently, eg I might foliar silica to correct things that might otherwise cause wide scale failure ( for example, i use silica with both P and K feeds, rather than attempt to avoid the unseen by adding to soil, wide mixes of things I am not first sure I know are missing, or just unavailable and so insufficient.) Who on a farm scale has money to continually test soil through pre biased soil testing labs? (no disrespect to soil labs, but each test method changes the outcome, ergo each test is imperfect as a human led preference, but they do still tell us somethings we might use to inform us.) and further, has the budget and or equipment to add acres of compost 8 inches thick, with tones of rock dust and blah.
Sometimes it is easier and more economical to turn a little bit of XBC in to 1000L of Y so we can spray a plant, other times it might be best to go back to the drawing board.


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## DankTankerous (Dec 23, 2018)

@Ecompost it seems like you’re Highjacking this thread, how about starting a new thread. I believe it would helpful for your information to be found rather being on page 30. No offense but I’m here for @hyroot.


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## bearded.beaver (Dec 23, 2018)

@Ecompost I agree with you. It's better to work with nature. Encourage nature in the direction you want. Not try to control nature. 
With some of these soil recipes if you want to buy all the amendments the price for even two 15gallon pots is in the hundreds of dollars. 
And in my opinion the soil food Web developed in your area is from local inputs. And has developed that way since since the beginning of time. That's is why we have diversity


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## Gingeroot (Dec 23, 2018)

Do you really need to ferment the equal amounts lacto/molasses with 20 parts water? Could I just mix molasses/lacto and use that in watering regime?


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## Ecompost (Dec 24, 2018)

DankTankerous said:


> @Ecompost it seems like you’re Highjacking this thread, how about starting a new thread. I believe it would helpful for your information to be found rather being on page 30. No offense but I’m here for @hyroot.


sorry you feel like that. I wasnt hijacking, just sharing and providing alternative views which it seems are not really welcome and must be discussed in a silo??? 
Years ago a man called Julius Hensel was over written by a man called Justus Von Liebig and so began an industry which continues today to exploit peasant farmers.....


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## AkFrost (Dec 24, 2018)

Ecompost said:


> I think this comes from Harley and NPK industries, among others, who have said publicly that, "plants with high BRIX content, cant be seen by predators", which is more than a little disingenuous with reference the sum total of requirements for plants to become "invisible????" to pest insects, pathogenic molds and so on.
> However, as with any good marketing, it is a likely outcome that, in the event biological harmony has been achieved from seed to harvest, that any plant might also have "High BRIX" as well as having been unmolested


 I took Harley Smith’s growing classes almost two years ago. He never said that a high brix plant makes it “invisible”. He does say that “some organic gardeners claim that when your plant has a brix lvl 12% or higher, sucking insects won’t reconise the plant as food”. I think we should double check things before posting the wrong info on ppl. Is it true? I don’t know, I don’t claim it to work that way. But one of MY goals as a grower is to try and keep my brix lvls high. Normally mine are around 14. I Started a couple FPJ’s last week to hopefully boost my brix lvls and help flowering. Hope they do good, I’ve never tried it before.


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## projectinfo (Jan 6, 2019)

AkFrost said:


> I took Harley Smith’s growing classes almost two years ago. He never said that a high brix plant makes it “invisible”. He does say that “some organic gardeners claim that when your plant has a brix lvl 12% or higher, sucking insects won’t reconise the plant as food”. I think we should double check things before posting the wrong info on ppl. Is it true? I don’t know, I don’t claim it to work that way. But one of MY goals as a grower is to try and keep my brix lvls high. Normally mine are around 14. I Started a couple FPJ’s last week to hopefully boost my brix lvls and help flowering. Hope they do good, I’ve never tried it before.


 Nice what did you use in your fpj for plabt meterial ?


And did you use sugar or em1/labs/aem


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## AkFrost (Jan 6, 2019)

Well it’s winter time so I had to use store bought product. I used cantaloupe (no rinds) and brown sugar. Equal parts. I didn’t really noticed any change in my plants. The brix stayed around its normal percentage. But it did allow me stop using my potassium nutrient in flower. And im still seeing the same results so far.


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## DankTankerous (Jan 7, 2019)

I top dressed my plant with Kashi and have gotten that nice mat Of mycelium covering the top. Should the top soil always be wet? If so how would I achieve it without overwatering my plant? Btw I’m in a equal parts perlite, ffof, and Happy Frog, so it’s very well aerated. If it does dry out will the mycelium become inactive and need reinnoculation or just rejuvenate and keep working?


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## ShLUbY (Jan 8, 2019)

DankTankerous said:


> I top dressed my plant with Kashi and have gotten that nice mat Of mycelium covering the top. Should the top soil always be wet? If so how would I achieve it without overwatering my plant? Btw I’m in a equal parts perlite, ffof, and Happy Frog, so it’s very well aerated. If it does dry out will the mycelium become inactive and need reinnoculation or just rejuvenate and keep working?


use a mulch, or even just a loose piece of poly plastic. that will help prevent evaporation of your topsoil. the humidity will remain high at the surface and keep it good and moist. and its unlikely you'd have to reinoculate it. you just have to keep feeding it


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## DankTankerous (Jan 8, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> use a mulch, or even just a loose piece of poly plastic. that will help prevent evaporation of your topsoil. the humidity will remain high at the surface and keep it good and moist. and its unlikely you'd have to reinoculate it. you just have to keep feeding it


I have Barley straw as my mulch and Red Clover crop on two of my plants


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## ShLUbY (Jan 8, 2019)

DankTankerous said:


> I have Barley straw as my mulch and Red Clover crop on two of my plants


then you're good to go!


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## DankTankerous (Jan 9, 2019)

Does Alfalfa effect fungi in the soil? I have read it’s anti-fungal?


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## loco41 (Jan 9, 2019)

DankTankerous said:


> Does Alfalfa effect fungi in the soil? I have read it’s anti-fungal?


I sure hope not, I use it in all sorts of applications. I was reading about compost teas again, I think it was microbe man but maybe it was a different source, but it stated that alfalfa is a source of food for both bacteria and fungi. 

would love to hear some more experienced input on this though.


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## projectinfo (Jan 23, 2019)

Whats the concencus on fish hydrolisate soil spray??


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## projectinfo (Jan 23, 2019)

Also anyone here fuck with compost tea ?


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## ShLUbY (Jan 23, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> Also anyone here fuck with compost tea ?


imo, you're better off doing a compost extract than a compost tea. the problem with teas is unless you have a microscope, and know what you're looking for, it's hard to quantify how good the tea actually is. so now i just go for the compost extract method. just rinse a couple lbs of quality compost with a gallon or two of water and then apply that as your tea.


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## projectinfo (Jan 24, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> imo, you're better off doing a compost extract than a compost tea. the problem with teas is unless you have a microscope, and know what you're looking for, it's hard to quantify how good the tea actually is. so now i just go for the compost extract method. just rinse a couple lbs of quality compost with a gallon or two of water and then apply that as your tea.


Yah thats what ive been doing to feed my seedlings.

Throw a few different things in a bucket including dirt, castings, kelp, peat, coconut water karanja, insect frass, compost , fpe.. And other stuff . I just chnge it up everytime like a whiches brew lol then let my cups suck some up through the bottom by half dunking cups in the soup


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## hyroot (Jan 26, 2019)

Compost teas are unnecessary. Just topdress castings and or compost. Thats all. 

If you have worms in your soil. A bottom portion of your soil will be castings too. 

The only reason for a compost / ewc tea is if your soil has dried out completely or if you are having ph issues.


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## hyroot (Jan 26, 2019)

Running a new soil mix. Its a budget mix. It seems to be working great.

Peat moss / pumice/ homemade ewc

Per cubic foot
1 cup Bio fish (down to earth)
1 cup bokashi (red wheat, lab, molasses, himilayan salt, photo plus, rock dusts)


After mixing. Water down. Sprinkle a layer of bokashi and spray water . Cover and let cook for 2 weeks. Then turn soil and use.

Still watering with lab and flower power. Watered wcap at mid flower only.

Same foliars I've been doing during veg and early flower 

Day 29. Bermuda Breath in a 15 gal fabric pot.


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## hyroot (Jan 26, 2019)

Spraying soil with faa / fish hydroslate is fine. Full of nutes and amino acids and provides food stock for microbes.


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## GentleCaveman (Jan 26, 2019)

Hey hyroot. I'm coming to end of my first grow in few weeks. Growing no-till living organic style, got worms, bugs, spiders and all kinds of things living in my pot/tent. I got 40lt soil mix I made in 50lt fabric pot. Mix is equal parts of EWC, Peat, Perlite ammended with crushed crab shells gathered from beach, sprouted barley seed flour and Pre-Mix from biobizz which is supposed to have "seagull waste, rock meals, trace elements, and fungi" quoted from e-mail BioBizz sent as an answer to me asking whats exactly in it. I top dressed it with composted leaves, twigs I gathered from the woods. And I use non composted leaves and twigs as a mulch.

My question is: I'm planning on going with self wicking system my next grow. Do you think its worth it to distrub my soil for that? Because if its I'm gonna ditch the perlite and add pumice instead, and add more rock dust+oyster shell flour that I made.

By the way I'm growing in 2x2 tent. My plan is to grow single plant next run but I got only auto strains at the moment. Do you think I should go with two 25lt pots and grow 2 plants instead of growing single auto in 50lt pot? Since autos don't veg that long that pot size should be enough, no? Or maybe even four plants in 25lt pots if I can fit them in?


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## projectinfo (Jan 26, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Spraying soil with faa / fish hydroslate is fine. Full of nutes and amino acids and provides food stock for microbes.


@hyroot i noticed a few of my totes with smaller plants in them , the resevoir smells anarobic, i forgot to add labs this week i think.


so anyways back on schedule i doubled up the labs this week , only have them 3 solocups of water each instead of 2 gallons lol , stupid


anyways you think the smelly ones will balance out with some labs ? unstink
ive got em1 , bokashi , aem , labs on hand if theres anything that might help quicker

thanks pal


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## GentleCaveman (Jan 26, 2019)

GentleCaveman said:


> Hey hyroot. I'm coming to end of my first grow in few weeks. Growing no-till living organic style, got worms, bugs, spiders and all kinds of things living in my pot/tent. I got 40lt soil mix I made in 50lt fabric pot. Mix is equal parts of EWC, Peat, Perlite ammended with crushed crab shells gathered from beach, sprouted barley seed flour and Pre-Mix from biobizz which is supposed to have "seagull waste, rock meals, trace elements, and fungi" quoted from e-mail BioBizz sent as an answer to me asking whats exactly in it. I top dressed it with composted leaves, twigs I gathered from the woods. And I use non composted leaves and twigs as a mulch.
> 
> My question is: I'm planning on going with self wicking system my next grow. Do you think its worth it to distrub my soil for that? Because if its I'm gonna ditch the perlite and add pumice instead, and add more rock dust+oyster shell flour that I made.
> 
> By the way I'm growing in 2x2 tent. My plan is to grow single plant next run but I got only auto strains at the moment. Do you think I should go with two 25lt pots and grow 2 plants instead of growing single auto in 50lt pot? Since autos don't veg that long that pot size should be enough, no? Or maybe even four plants in 25lt pots if I can fit them in?


Maybe build something like this? So when I decide growing photoperiods I can remove the cross section in between and grow single big plant without disturbing the soil. Or if I want to, grow 4 and veg for less time. Reason I want to have a cross section separating the soil is I believe there is some weird connection between autoflowering plants. If they are in the same soil, once one starts flowing they all do. So I don't want any pre-ejaculations this time.


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## BionicΩChronic (Jan 26, 2019)

Piling up last year's soil (120+ gal), cow manure and horsemanure.





(Got over 100gal cow manure this is just a pic of the corner of the pile) once I purchase more ammendments I'll mix it up and let it sit for a month or two (target area for it to finish cooking is march - april)

Making compost

Pretty soon I'll start making LABS (_lacto bacillus) Fer_mented plant juice, and fermented fruit juice.
If I can aquire a blender I see a few fermented fish in my future.
Fish hydroslate is high in N and microbes
Fungi also grow exponentially in number from it's use
http://www.ridgedalepermaculture.com/blog/making-fish-hydrolysate


Still need to buy some organic nutes like seabird and high P.K bat quano. As well as like 5 or 6 fox farms $10 2lb bags of a variety of blended amendments. Maybe a 2 bags of FF soil and perlite to stretch it. Glacial rock dust and kelp meal if I can afford it. This bulk mix will be ready hopefully by March or April. By then my pants will be teens and ready for the uppotting
Also need to pick up a good mulch.

This is my second year organic farming.
Last year I did fairly well and didn't use LABS, FPJ, FFJ, fish hydroslate, AACT or glacial rock dust. So Im hoping this year will beat lasts. Still new so any tips and advice is welcomed


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## Serverchris (Jan 26, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Running a new soil mix. Its a budget mix. It seems to be working great.
> 
> Peat moss / pumice/ homemade ewc
> 
> ...


Do you use any minerals or liming material in that mix?


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## projectinfo (Feb 2, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Running a new soil mix. Its a budget mix. It seems to be working great.
> 
> Peat moss / pumice/ homemade ewc
> 
> ...


Whats your ratio for peat/pumice castings? 1/3?

If so you must be using a 1/4 screen for csstings right

It would take alot to get 1/8 lol

I usually throw the 1/4 stuff back into the new bedding for a new worm bin


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## projectinfo (Feb 2, 2019)

Serverchris said:


> Do you use any minerals or liming material in that mix?


Bump @Serverchris


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## hyroot (Feb 4, 2019)

Don't double up labs. Just a splash / 1 oz of aem / activated lab in the resi once a week.is all you need. Or 1 tsp of lab concemtrate. 

Best sips are soma style sips.
-------------------------

I used recycled soil for my new mix. So probably already full of minerals. Plus there's rock dusts in my bokashi and ferments. For liming I feed my worms a lot of white and charred egg shells. I use home made castings


-------------------------------

I always use the same ratio of castings, pumice, and peat. There's several studies that show castings produce the best results for plant growth and health when it makes up 30% of the soil.


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## projectinfo (Feb 4, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Dont double up labs. Just a splash / 1 oz of aem / actuvated lab in the resi once a week.is all you need. Or 1 tsp of lab concemtrate.
> 
> Best sips are soma style sips.
> -------------------------
> ...



how fine do you sieve your castings? 1/4?? 1/8" ?


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## hyroot (Feb 4, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> how fine do you sieve your castings? 1/4?? 1/8" ?



Both. Usually 1/8. Sometimes 1/4. Depends on whats in the bin when i harvest them. Not everything is completely broken down when I do.


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## projectinfo (Feb 5, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Both. Usually 1/8. Sometimes 1/4. Depends on whats in the bin when i harvest them. Not everything is completely broken down when I do.


 really eh ?

ive only been saving totaly broken down 1/8 castings..

ive been worried that maybe un broken down meterial might rot and being alot of bad pests ?


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## hyroot (Feb 5, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> really eh ?
> 
> ive only been saving totaly broken down 1/8 castings..
> 
> ive been worried that maybe un broken down meterial might rot and being alot of bad pests ?


I worded that wrong. 
It's vermicompost. Not everything gets broken down by worms. A good amount of it gets composted. The compost isn't as fine as the castings.


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## ShLUbY (Feb 5, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> really eh ?
> 
> ive only been saving totaly broken down 1/8 castings..
> 
> ive been worried that maybe un broken down meterial might rot and being alot of bad pests ?


stuff wont rot as long as your mix is aerobic. it'll just get decomposed in the soil. i also use the 1/4" mesh and harvest that way. anything 1/4" and smaller is fine for me!


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## MidwestGorilla219 (Feb 5, 2019)

I found a garden store going out of business, 75% off everything so I bought 8 25lb bags of espoma chicken manure pellets for $40. I have no idea how hot the stuff is but it smells potent. I'm growing outdoors in 100 gallon pots, soil mix is 30% castings and horse manure compost, 40% sphagnum peat moss, and 30% aeration. Then 1/2 cup of each, kelp meal, crab shell, fish bone meal, oyster shell flower (I add a lot of calcium to my worm bins so weary of adding more). And 1 cup glacier rock dust. 

How hot are chicken manure pellets, can I add half a cup per cubic ft? My soil mix I have used many times except I used alfalfa meal at a half cup. My soil gets mixed early April and I will transplant roughly 18-24 inch plants from seed June 1st.


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## ShLUbY (Feb 5, 2019)

MidwestGorilla219 said:


> I found a garden store going out of business, 75% off everything so I bought 8 25lb bags of espoma chicken manure pellets for $40. I have no idea how hot the stuff is but it smells potent. I'm growing outdoors in 100 gallon pots, soil mix is 30% castings and horse manure compost, 40% sphagnum peat moss, and 30% aeration. Then 1/2 cup of each, kelp meal, crab shell, fish bone meal, oyster shell flower (I add a lot of calcium to my worm bins so weary of adding more). And 1 cup glacier rock dust.
> 
> How hot are chicken manure pellets, can I add half a cup per cubic ft? My soil mix I have used many times except I used alfalfa meal at a half cup. My soil gets mixed early April and I will transplant roughly 18-24 inch plants from seed June 1st.



I usually see stuff called "chicky doo doo" or something with an NPK of 3-3-3. definitely safe to add at 1/2c per cu.ft. Do they have an NPK value on the espoma bag? or surely there is a nutrient profile table on the back of the bag. sounds like you have a nice system worked out! I wish i had the space to do outdoor... maybe in a few years


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## MidwestGorilla219 (Feb 5, 2019)

ShLUbY said:


> I usually see stuff called "chicky doo doo" or something with an NPK of 3-3-3. definitely safe to add at 1/2c per cu.ft. Do they have an NPK value on the espoma bag? or surely there is a nutrient profile table on the back of the bag. sounds like you have a nice system worked out! I wish i had the space to do outdoor... maybe in a few years


The NPK value is 3-2-3. I have seen the chicky-do-do at menards. This stuff smells much stronger. It says it's dehydrated and granulated chicken manure if that matters. It will cook for about 2 months so I'm thinking I should be good anyways.


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## hyroot (Feb 16, 2019)

My bermuda breath and highland breath almost done. I've decided I'm not going to release f2's of either of these. But rather release what I cross with the males of these. I'm about to flip the light on the highland breath male project.

I may change my mind down the road.


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## MustangStudFarm (Feb 28, 2019)

hyroot said:


> My bermuda breath and highland breath almost done. I've decided I'm not going to release f2's of either of these. But rather release what I cross with the males of these. I'm about to flip the light on the highland breath male project.
> 
> I may change my mind down the road.
> 
> ...


I was watching your old YouTube videos and some of your older stuff looks a lot like what I am dealing with now. It looks like you were dealing with a lot of nutrient lockout and deficiencies and then you made a break-though and all of your plants don't have spots or brown anymore. I was really impressed with the FPJ that I made from a tomato plant and I am trying to make "Roberto's Brew" now. I'm waiting for my new carboy jugs to be delivered today. I got some food grade plastic 5gal buckets but they started falling apart the 1st day of use. The lip that holds the lid came off during the first use, so that was a worthless set back. I'm also going to start getting SIP planters together.

I was getting chlorosis from a Mn def and the leaves were getting pale and droopy. I watered with a little Mn and FPJ and the plants started to perk back up the next day. Anyways, I'm getting pretty good results from my FPJ and I'm ready to dig a little deeper into KNF.


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## MustangStudFarm (Feb 28, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Per cubic foot
> 1 cup Bio fish (down to earth)
> 1 cup bokashi (red wheat, lab, molasses, himilayan salt, photo plus, rock dusts)


Is this the Photo Plus that you are talking about?
https://www.amazon.com/Microbe-Life-Photosynthesis-Plus-Quart/dp/B00BID0BOI

What kind of rock dust are you using? I think that I am going to stop buying basalt and start using a lot more greensand and azomite because I'm still low in Mn. My worm bin LOVED the bokashi that I put in there. I added some before we got snow and my worm bin was steamy and the worms were doing awesome, even during the snow. The problem is mice, I can see where they burrow and eat all of my worms. I can see my worm bin being a mouse hotel in the winter and snake bait during the summer.


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## SSGrower (Feb 28, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Is this the Photo Plus that you are talking about?
> https://www.amazon.com/Microbe-Life-Photosynthesis-Plus-Quart/dp/B00BID0BOI
> 
> What kind of rock dust are you using? I think that I am going to stop buying basalt and start using a lot more greensand and azomite because I'm still low in Mn. My worm bin LOVED the bokashi that I put in there. I added some before we got snow and my worm bin was steamy and the worms were doing awesome, even during the snow. The problem is mice, I can see where they burrow and eat all of my worms. I can see my worm bin being a mouse hotel in the winter and snake bait during the summer.


Pretty sure thats the one, I just got a bottle a couple months ago. One comment is I have not applied bt for fungus gnats since beginning use.

Meanwhile I will be making a batch of this.


hyroot said:


> CAL-PHOS
> 
> 1.Collect a bunch of eggshells and wash to remove inside filaments. Remember, you can also use bones and other good sources of calcium like seashells, clams and oysters, etc. Likewise, if you only want calcium, even limestone can be used, or simple lime. Egg shells for soluble calcium. Animal bones for soluble phos.
> 
> ...


----------



## hyroot (Feb 28, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I was watching your old YouTube videos and some of your older stuff looks a lot like what I am dealing with now. It looks like you were dealing with a lot of nutrient lockout and deficiencies and then you made a break-though and all of your plants don't have spots or brown anymore. I was really impressed with the FPJ that I made from a tomato plant and I am trying to make "Roberto's Brew" now. I'm waiting for my new carboy jugs to be delivered today. I got some food grade plastic 5gal buckets but they started falling apart the 1st day of use. The lip that holds the lid came off during the first use, so that was a worthless set back. I'm also going to start getting SIP planters together.
> 
> I was getting chlorosis from a Mn def and the leaves were getting pale and droopy. I watered with a little Mn and FPJ and the plants started to perk back up the next day. Anyways, I'm getting pretty good results from my FPJ and I'm ready to dig a little deeper into KNF.



Magnanese def was the spots. As soon as i started adding karanja cake, more diversity of rock dusts and doing ferments, bokashi, and topping pureed malted barley. They went away. I still get fades at the end of flower witj a few strains that are just nutrient hogs.


----------



## hyroot (Feb 28, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Is this the Photo Plus that you are talking about?
> https://www.amazon.com/Microbe-Life-Photosynthesis-Plus-Quart/dp/B00BID0BOI
> 
> What kind of rock dust are you using? I think that I am going to stop buying basalt and start using a lot more greensand and azomite because I'm still low in Mn. My worm bin LOVED the bokashi that I put in there. I added some before we got snow and my worm bin was steamy and the worms were doing awesome, even during the snow. The problem is mice, I can see where they burrow and eat all of my worms. I can see my worm bin being a mouse hotel in the winter and snake bait during the summer.



Yep same one. It has pnsb and other microbes that are not in labs. I only add a few tablespoons for every 20 lbs of of grains.

I use basalt, gypsum, and galcial rock dusts.

Also bokashi, ahimsa neem cake, karanja cake, and malted barley all have magnanese. Bokashi has the most of all of them if made with hard red wheat. Not sure about rice bokashi though.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 1, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Magnanese def was the spots. As soon as i started adding karanja cake, more diversity of rock dusts and doing ferments, bokashi, and topping pureed malted barley. They went away. I still get fades at the end of flower witj a few strains that are just nutrient hogs.


I feel like I got burned on my last bag of glacial rock dust because it looks exactly like basalt. The GRD that I bought before was micronized and tan, the last stuff was coarse and grey/black. So, I really wasn't impressed with either my basalt or GRD recently. I think that I only get Mg out of the basalt. It's important to me now because I had a K def my last harvest and my Ca and Mg were very high, so I think that they dove the K into deficiency. From having my soil tested and retested, it looked like I was mostly getting sodium, boron and copper from kelp. I was also getting a little bump in K, N, Fe, and B but not really that much. I noticed that kelp and alfalfa was my only K inputs, so I need to expand. That's when I came across greensand, it has K, Mg, Fe and Mn.
 



hyroot said:


> Also bokashi, ahimsa neem cake, karanja cake, and malted barley all have magnanese. Bokashi has the most of all of them if made with hard red wheat. Not sure about rice bokashi though.


I have some red wheat that I have been making bokashi with, but I've been putting it in the worm bin and the worm population really exploded. I heard Clackamas say that worms like barley, so I've been impressed with how well my worm bin is doing now, but the leaves still are not broken down. I don't think that it will be ready until the end of summer honestly.
I've been back and fourth on using my compost and I decided to just go with it. I had some recycled soil going and I just left it alone for about 18months. The problem with my compost is that it is always super high in P and low in trace minerals like Fe, Mn, and Zn mostly. I think that I am going to have to give a light feeding of these trace minerals throughout the grow. It's the same soil as the test in the pic.

I know that there is probably a better way to foliar feed, but I just got some BioMin for trace minerals. I listeded to the podcast with Dr. Steve Solomon(Author of _The Intelligent Gardener_) and he talks specifically about trace minerals, so I bought into his product. 
_*https://www.kisorganics.com/products/biomin-booster-153*_
_*
*_


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 1, 2019)

I don't mean to be so long winded. It's takes a little transition time to start getting on board with what you are doing, as in buying a few things. I was very impressed with the FPJ and I would like to see what Flower Power ferment can do in flower. Next, I am going to get into SIP planters.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 1, 2019)

SSGrower said:


> Pretty sure thats the one, I just got a bottle a couple months ago. One comment is I have not applied bt for fungus gnats since beginning use.


That is def some good information! I was going to buy mosquito dunks, but it would be good to save some money lol. I mean, I already ordered the Photo+. I saw one review that said it smelled like 10,000 farts in a bottle. It was hard to find info about Photo+ and I was trying to see if it had similar bacterial/fungal strains as EM1. I'm guessing that it would be better if I made homemade LABS instead of buying EM1 and get the Photo+ instead?


----------



## SSGrower (Mar 2, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> That is def some good information! I was going to buy mosquito dunks, but it would be good to save some money lol. I mean, I already ordered the Photo+. I saw one review that said it smelled like 10,000 farts in a bottle. It was hard to find info about Photo+ and I was trying to see if it had similar bacterial/fungal strains as EM1. I'm guessing that it would be better if I made homemade LABS instead of buying EM1 and get the Photo+ instead?


It reeks, make sure the bottle has a good seal, otherwise you WILL regret it.
Since EM1 does not publish a C of A outlining the exact composition of its product I dont think it is possible to compare the two products on paper, without an in depth analysis of the production process of each. Photo plus lists colony counts on the label, and npk ratios.
I cant explain why I havent had to treat for fungus gnats, it just alligns with starting use of this product, perhaps one of the other bacteria have a similar toxicity to the pest.


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 2, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I was watching your old YouTube videos and some of your older stuff looks a lot like what I am dealing with now. It looks like you were dealing with a lot of nutrient lockout and deficiencies and then you made a break-though and all of your plants don't have spots or brown anymore. I was really impressed with the FPJ that I made from a tomato plant and I am trying to make "Roberto's Brew" now. I'm waiting for my new carboy jugs to be delivered today. I got some food grade plastic 5gal buckets but they started falling apart the 1st day of use. The lip that holds the lid came off during the first use, so that was a worthless set back. I'm also going to start getting SIP planters together.
> 
> I was getting chlorosis from a Mn def and the leaves were getting pale and droopy. I watered with a little Mn and FPJ and the plants started to perk back up the next day. Anyways, I'm getting pretty good results from my FPJ and I'm ready to dig a little deeper into KNF.


Dig a little deeper into the soil food web, elaine ingham, jeff lowenfels, joshua steensland, shango los - cannabis polyculture, herbin farmer on youtube


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 2, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Is this the Photo Plus that you are talking about?
> https://www.amazon.com/Microbe-Life-Photosynthesis-Plus-Quart/dp/B00BID0BOI
> 
> What kind of rock dust are you using? I think that I am going to stop buying basalt and start using a lot more greensand and azomite because I'm still low in Mn. My worm bin LOVED the bokashi that I put in there. I added some before we got snow and my worm bin was steamy and the worms were doing awesome, even during the snow. The problem is mice, I can see where they burrow and eat all of my worms. I can see my worm bin being a mouse hotel in the winter and snake bait during the summer.


 Feed the mice, grow potatoes near there next year  if you find the shango los cannabis polycuture video of the outdoor guy on youtube., he loves the mice they breakdown the root plants he puts there and turns them into manure, aerates while burrowing . His garden is amazing And no work lol


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 2, 2019)

laugh at my limp leaves lol she dryed out a bit, it was time to trim the undergrowth anyways  
  

Day 18 flower from flip to 12/12

First run of no till in home made sips

Easy fuckin peasy.

Just got a shitload of companion seeds to go in the totes .

Welcome to jungle


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 2, 2019)

everyone following the vpd chart? 

Once i followed that and my plants are eating drinking at a less stressful rate things have really greened up for me


----------



## DankTankerous (Mar 2, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> View attachment 4292520
> 
> everyone following the vpd chart?
> 
> Once i followed that and my plants are eating drinking at a less stressful rate things have really greened up for me


I’m having trouble keeping a good humidity level in my cabinet. I put a humidifier (one for homes, holds like a cup of water) in there and it did nothing to raise the RH. What would you do?


----------



## Serverchris (Mar 2, 2019)

DankTankerous said:


> I’m having trouble keeping a good humidity level in my cabinet. I put a humidifier (one for homes, holds like a cup of water) in there and it did nothing to raise the RH. What would you do?


Get a real humidifier, can also run less ventilation and your RH will sky rocket. The more plants the higher the RH as well.


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 2, 2019)

DankTankerous said:


> I’m having trouble keeping a good humidity level in my cabinet. I put a humidifier (one for homes, holds like a cup of water) in there and it did nothing to raise the RH. What would you do?


yeah my humidifier holds like 5 gallons , it was around 200$

dont humidify your small cabinet space, you should humidify the room that the cabinet is in , and the nhave an exhaust fan on a timer or controller to cycle fresh air from the room all day . and really that room needs to have some kind of exchange of air to outside your house , FAE , Fresh Air Exchange .

it replenishes c02, one of the building blocks for photosynthasis , and it help change out stagnant air that could cause mold or budrot eventually if left for a while.

take your environment very seriously . if your environment is off , it throws everything elese off .

follow the VPD chart as best you can


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 2, 2019)

Serverchris said:


> Get a real humidifier, can also run less ventilation and your RH will sky rocket. The more plants the higher the RH as well.



your right server chris. it really helps to have a full grow space to regulate humidity, mine right now are prettty spaced apart still and my room wont hold humidity .


----------



## DankTankerous (Mar 3, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> yeah my humidifier holds like 5 gallons , it was around 200$
> 
> dont humidify your small cabinet space, you should humidify the room that the cabinet is in , and the nhave an exhaust fan on a timer or controller to cycle fresh air from the room all day . and really that room needs to have some kind of exchange of air to outside your house , FAE , Fresh Air Exchange .
> 
> ...


I can definitely turn the exhaust off, but there is definitely no stale air and it’s constantly being cycled. Is there a more feasible way? I just spent quite a bit of money (for myself) on a new light. I get that it’s not optimal, but is there a less expensive way?


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 3, 2019)

DankTankerous said:


> I can definitely turn the exhaust off, but there is definitely no stale air and it’s constantly being cycled. Is there a more feasible way? I just spent quite a bit of money (for myself) on a new light. I get that it’s not optimal, but is there a less expensive way?


if you cant control your humidity/temps indoors. youll eventually run into problems.

whats worse?

3 months down the drain to spider mites or PM

or having a weak harvest compared to what you could have

or going out and find the money to do it right the first time?


the humidifier will last you a very long time , and if the filter gets gross and you cant find a replacement, i just use towels over the rack inside, and i add some minigar to keep it clean


----------



## DankTankerous (Mar 3, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> if you cant control your humidity/temps indoors. youll eventually run into problems.
> 
> whats worse?
> 
> ...


Understandable, the cabinet is in my bedroom, would a 6L work for a small bedroom with a cabinet in it? Or would I need a 5gal like yours?


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 3, 2019)

DankTankerous said:


> Understandable, the cabinet is in my bedroom, would a 6L work for a small bedroom with a cabinet in it? Or would I need a 5gal like yours?


yeah , i mean its really hard to say , how is the ambiant humidity outside your house?
if its dry outside you may nee a large capacity and larger fan model like me.

if your in the tropics where is hot n humid well maybe you wont need as big of a model.

but whats cheaper , buy twice or buy once?

my room is 11x13 x 7 high.
and im in a dry winter phase where i probably should have another humidifier ,

but if i would have filled my entire room with plants , they sweat alot more and hold the humidity better,

but i didnt , alot of variables buddy , id rather have too much control than not enough . the weather here changes pretty dramatically from week to week


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 3, 2019)

i see to many people try to get by with the bare minimum and then get pissed when it fucks up , or their cheap chinese junk breaks in the middle of flower .


----------



## Chemakills (Mar 3, 2019)

So I've been using Subs super soil with great results but I'm trying to focus more on using true living soil as my medium.

This is the soil mix I've come up with but I wanted to run it by you guys in here before I use it. In case something needs to be changed.

Any and all input would be great!

Here's the Mix(makes 18 5 gallon pots)
Promix bx with Mycorrhyzae or Peat Moss: 3.8 cubic ft
Compost: 3 cubic ft
Mushroom Compost: 1.5 cubic ft

Earth Worm Castings: 10lbs per bag
Bio-Live: 4 1/2 cups
Kelp Meal: 4 1/2 cups
Neem Meal: 4 1/2 cups
Malted Barley: 4 1/2 cups
Gypsum: 3 cups
Basalt: 10 cups
Bio-Char: 18 cups

Look OK? Suggestions to make it better?


----------



## ShLUbY (Mar 4, 2019)

Chemakills said:


> So I've been using Subs super soil with great results but I'm trying to focus more on using true living soil as my medium.
> 
> This is the soil mix I've come up with but I wanted to run it by you guys in here before I use it. In case something needs to be changed.
> 
> ...


recipe looks fine. I've read that those mushroom composts can be pretty poor quality... but probably source dependent of course.


----------



## Chemakills (Mar 4, 2019)

Thanks for the input Shluby!

To be honest the only reason I'm using some mushroom compost is because I have free access from a local gourmet mushroom farm. My plan was to add it all together when I first make the soil but now I'm thinking I might add the mushroom compost a week or two before flower. I've been reading mixed opinions on weather or not it'll have negative affects during veg but all seem to agree it can be beneficial in flower.


----------



## ShLUbY (Mar 4, 2019)

Chemakills said:


> Thanks for the input Shluby!
> 
> To be honest the only reason I'm using some mushroom compost is because I have free access from a local gourmet mushroom farm. My plan was to add it all together when I first make the soil but now I'm thinking I might add the mushroom compost a week or two before flower. I've been reading mixed opinions on weather or not it'll have negative affects during veg but all seem to agree it can be beneficial in flower.


well your source already sounds better than the bagged crap at the home and garden stores lol

i did some work on an indoor mushroom farm in 2018 and i was drooling at all the compost materials that were going into the dumpster. I'm going to work on starting some larger scale worm farms later this year on site of that location and see if I can't turn the mushroom byproducts into some killer compost.


----------



## Chemakills (Mar 4, 2019)

That should be pretty sweet lol. 

It blows my mind that the mushroom farm I go to just piles up all tthat compost and does nothing with it. The owner said I could take as much as I want.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 4, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> Feed the mice, grow potatoes near there next year  if you find the shango los cannabis polycuture video of the outdoor guy on youtube., he loves the mice they breakdown the root plants he puts there and turns them into manure, aerates while burrowing . His garden is amazing And no work lol


Here is a copper-head from a couple of years ago that I found under a tarp. Last year, I found my first pygmy rattle snake and it was next to my kid's power wheel toy. They have been small snakes, but that don't make them any safer.


----------



## raggyb (Mar 4, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Here is a copper-head from a couple of years ago that I found under a tarp. Last year, I found my first pygmy rattle snake and it was next to my kid's power wheel toy. They have been small snakes, but that don't make them any safer.
> View attachment 4294340


Damn. It is pretty though.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 4, 2019)

raggyb said:


> Damn. It is pretty though.


I felt bad for having to kill them, but I have kids around. I actually have a hard time bringing myself to do it. The Pygmy Rattler could have been a previous catch and release(before I had kids). I found one in my water hose and it got caught on the screen for the sprinkler. Lucky for him, he clogged the line and I had to see what was wrong.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 4, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Yep same one. It has pnsb and other microbes that are not in labs. I only add a few tablespoons for every 20 lbs of of grains.
> 
> I use basalt, gypsum, and galcial rock dusts.
> 
> Also bokashi, ahimsa neem cake, karanja cake, and malted barley all have magnanese. Bokashi has the most of all of them if made with hard red wheat. Not sure about rice bokashi though.


When you build your SIP, do you have an air gap between the reservoir and the soil?


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 5, 2019)

Chemakills said:


> That should be pretty sweet lol.
> 
> It blows my mind that the mushroom farm I go to just piles up all tthat compost and does nothing with it. The owner said I could take as much as I want.


 I cant confirm , but maybe you should ask them if theres any sprays or anything wrong with the mushroom compost.. 

For some reason i remember somone saying beware commercial mushroom compost ... Cant remember exactly why ..


----------



## Skunker762 (Mar 5, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> I cant confirm , but maybe you should ask them if theres any sprays or anything wrong with the mushroom compost..
> 
> For some reason i remember somone saying beware commercial mushroom compost ... Cant remember exactly why ..


Thats a good point...hope its not too good to be true.


----------



## SSGrower (Mar 5, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Here is a copper-head from a couple of years ago that I found under a tarp. Last year, I found my first pygmy rattle snake and it was next to my kid's power wheel toy. They have been small snakes, but that don't make them any safer.
> View attachment 4294340


Small young rattlers are way worse the a 6ft long one. The 6footer knows it cant eat you wont inject venom (as much intentionally) it does not want to waste it on you. The young one will let loos of bot venom glands and inject more venom. 

Common misconception.


----------



## raggyb (Mar 5, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I felt bad for having to kill them, but I have kids around. I actually have a hard time bringing myself to do it. The Pygmy Rattler could have been a previous catch and release(before I had kids). I found one in my water hose and it got caught on the screen for the sprinkler. Lucky for him, he clogged the line and I had to see what was wrong.


That's ok, you had to do it. I guess some people will pay for them (edit: alive) or at least I thought so. Or you could eat it, that wouldn't be a waste.


----------



## Rainbow Warrior (Mar 6, 2019)

hyroot said:


> My soil mix - coots mix adjusted
> 
> Equal parts peat moss, wormcastings / compost and garden pumice.
> 
> ...





hyroot said:


> My soil mix - coots mix adjusted
> 
> Equal parts peat moss, wormcastings / compost and garden pumice.
> 
> ...


What’s ir opinion on of-the-shelf organic soil mix?
Planning to use biobizz all mix (it’s difficult to get other organic dirt over here on mainland Europe); it consists of 20% sphagnum peat moss, 35% garden peat, 10% high quality organic Worm-Humus , 30% perlite and 5% Pre-Mix.
Should I add anything to the dirt, or use it as it is?

RW


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 7, 2019)

Rainbow Warrior said:


> What’s ir opinion on of-the-shelf organic soil mix?
> Planning to use biobizz all mix (it’s difficult to get other organic dirt over here on mainland Europe); it consists of 20% sphagnum peat moss, 35% garden peat, 10% high quality organic Worm-Humus , 30% perlite and 5% Pre-Mix.
> Should I add anything to the dirt, or use it as it is?
> 
> RW


You posted the recipe . . Follow the recipe. Add the ingredients that are not included in the bag of dirt.


The quality of castings is key .


----------



## Rainbow Warrior (Mar 7, 2019)

Cheers, will do!

I let u know how I got on...

RW


----------



## madvillian420 (Mar 15, 2019)

Im about to make a soil mix in some 5gal buckets and was wondering if i should keep them covered or exposed when letting them cook?


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 16, 2019)

hyroot said:


> Running a new soil mix. Its a budget mix. It seems to be working great.
> 
> Peat moss / pumice/ homemade ewc
> 
> ...


I love "Budget" mixes!!! I just got the PhotoPlus in the mail today and I'm going to try using it with the wheat bran. I just got 3x bags of wheat bran from the feed store for $12ea. It's cheap enough that I might start using bokashi bran in my compost pile.

I had trouble finding information on PhotoPlus and I don't know if I can expand/activate it like EM1?


----------



## SSGrower (Mar 16, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I love "Budget" mixes!!! I just got the PhotoPlus in the mail today and I'm going to try using it with the wheat bran. I just got 3x bags of wheat bran from the feed store for $12ea. It's cheap enough that I might start using bokashi bran in my compost pile.
> 
> I had trouble finding information on PhotoPlus and I don't know if I can expand/activate it like EM1?


I think it might need a more complex nutrient regimine, but idk. KSO4 and sugar maybe?

Personally I'd dilute make the grokashi/bokashi.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 17, 2019)

SSGrower said:


> I think it might need a more complex nutrient regimine, but idk. KSO4 and sugar maybe?
> 
> Personally I'd dilute make the grokashi/bokashi.


My compost/recycled soil has most of what I need, I just need to add micronutrients. So, my budget mix has been azomite, greensand, alfalfa, and a little kelp. It hasn't provided enough Mn but I also didn't give the rock dusts enough time to break down. I've been having to use Mn, Zn, and Fe sulfates for a quick release, the rock dusts for a slow release. Hyroot pointed out that red wheat bran has Mn and I would rather go that route than using sulfates because the bokashi helps break down my compost and gives me healthy worms. I still don't have anything perfected yet though and I'm always trying to learn.


----------



## Covetsculitvars (Mar 17, 2019)

Rainbow Warrior said:


> Cheers, will do!
> 
> I let u know how I got on...
> 
> RW


Id suggest red wiggler farming in your future


----------



## SSGrower (Mar 17, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> My compost/recycled soil has most of what I need, I just need to add micronutrients. So, my budget mix has been azomite, greensand, alfalfa, and a little kelp. It hasn't provided enough Mn but I also didn't give the rock dusts enough time to break down. I've been having to use Mn, Zn, and Fe sulfates for a quick release, the rock dusts for a slow release. Hyroot pointed out that red wheat bran has Mn and I would rather go that route than using sulfates because the bokashi helps break down my compost and gives me healthy worms. I still don't have anything perfected yet though and I'm always trying to learn.


I think you may have misunderstood?
I was talking KSO4 and sugar for activating/expanding photosynthesis plus. Again IDK 0.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 17, 2019)

SSGrower said:


> I think you may have misunderstood?
> I was talking KSO4 and sugar for activating/expanding photosynthesis plus. Again IDK 0.


Yes, I think that I most def misunderstood! Sorry, I'm drinking some Jameson and it's a eye opener. I probably need to drink a lil more and be chill... Thinking about buying Jameson by the case right now, maybe it's me that needed the ferments...


----------



## SSGrower (Mar 17, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Yes, I think that I most def misunderstood! Sorry, I'm drinking some Jameson and it's a eye opener. I probably need to drink a lil more and be chill... Thinking about buying Jameson by the case right now, maybe it's me that needed the ferments...


Different strokes, different folks.


----------



## TheTinkerer (Mar 17, 2019)

I posted this in a different thread, but this seems like good place to ask. 

So, in these large 20+ gallon sips made of totes, do you ever clean the reservoir?
I mixed up some super soil, it’s been cooking for two weeks. I’d like to try no till, sub irrigated, but I’m not sure if I should use large fabric pots sitting on trays of perlite, or build a tote sip. I worry about something getting funky in the res and it being impossible to clean. Any comments?


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 18, 2019)

TheTinkerer said:


> I posted this in a different thread, but this seems like good place to ask.
> 
> So, in these large 20+ gallon sips made of totes, do you ever clean the reservoir?
> I mixed up some super soil, it’s been cooking for two weeks. I’d like to try no till, sub irrigated, but I’m not sure if I should use large fabric pots sitting on trays of perlite, or build a tote sip. I worry about something getting funky in the res and it being impossible to clean. Any comments?


Are you using EM1 in your rez? It'll keep it from getting funky.


----------



## TheTinkerer (Mar 18, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Are you using EM1 in your rez? It'll keep it from getting funky.


I haven’t made my planters yet. So, you use em1 in your res and haven’t had trouble?


----------



## madvillian420 (Mar 18, 2019)

do you guys keep your soil mixes covered or exposed when cooking?


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 18, 2019)

TheTinkerer said:


> I haven’t made my planters yet. So, you use em1 in your res and haven’t had trouble?


I haven't had a full run with it yet, I just got a couple of EarthBoxes. EM1 is anaerobic and it will out compete the other bad anaerobic bacteria.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 18, 2019)

madvillian420 said:


> do you guys keep your soil mixes covered or exposed when cooking?


Your trying to get aerobic bacteria, so let it breath.


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 18, 2019)

madvillian420 said:


> do you guys keep your soil mixes covered or exposed when cooking?


 Mulch and cover crop while cooking your soil. Add worms., bokashi to speed up the process.


----------



## projectinfo (Mar 18, 2019)

TheTinkerer said:


> I haven’t made my planters yet. So, you use em1 in your res and haven’t had trouble?


 I used 20gal totes but im Switching to multi plant sip beds .


The totes work good, its just a peat wick . But the plastic degrades and breaks . Its just not ideal long term for this living soil . 

I suggest getting some cheap ply wood and angle brackets . And wheels if you want to get fancy.

Line with 6ml vapor barriar from hardware store. Lay down pumice. Not perlite.

Perlite breaks down and floats. And makes alot of dust .. Im just not a fan And im guessing by the end if your first run youll have a layer of perlite dust at the bottom of your res. 

After your pumice layer, put a layer of cheap landscape fabric . From the hardware store, then put your clackamas coots mix with 50% aeration and 25%castings/compost and 25% peat/coco - this is adjusted for sub irrigated soil, for better drainage 
- but you can decide your own soil mix 

And the rest of the coots mix./hyroots mix at the start of the thread .

Then 4-6 inches of dead leaves , straw, hay, grass, dead brown meterials .

The more greens you put in, the more hot composting will happen .... And the more bad guys get in 


The more browns you use the more fungal your mulch layer will get and fungi breaks down much like a boss forming a beautiful mycelium mat and a fast humis layer .. Not to mention the boatload of other benfits the fungi offer From breakingdown cellulose in the brown meterials, to transporting water and nutrients to your plants , they aerate your soil and form complex intellegent networks with your plants .

With the sip make sure you put a good size fill tube, and drain .. It makes a vent to prevent stale air in your res, also no light in the res youll get slime. Go get a thru hull fitting from a boat shop. That way yoy can add a proper drain. Google thru hull fitting. Tthey screw tight and have a gasket on each side with a barb fitting to add a hose if you like. 

And honestly i gave up keeping the res soaked/full all the time . Instead , learn to move your pots every day and get a feel for when they feel lighter,. Not dry by any means Ok.... But lighter like you know the res is empy for a day or two . And the pot isnt mega heavy any more might even be handy to have a dipstick for the res to make sure their drinking what theyve for befor you drown them again. If their not drinking, somethings wrong. Just wait befor doing anyrhing or change your environtment check for pests. 

The way i do it , is in full bloom when their drinking heavy il give them a 2 liters of water with a splash of em1 or labs or aem 

Then the next day the mulch layers getting dry so i might grab the sprayer and give a couple passes on the mulch. Also a good time to add things to be watered in like boksshi, malted barley, kelp, molasis, knf ferments, castings, compost. Not all at once. Just whenever you need at the time ok. 

Next day the mulch is pretty wet i wont do anything . 

Next day im kind of moving things around feeling how heavy .. 

If the pots still heavy and the mulch is dry il wet the mulch a bit more to slow down water evaporation and this is the sweet spot ... 

Where you can slow down the soil from evaporating for a few days i notice the most growth . Not soggy But not light either more aeration might help this. 

When i tried keeping the res full with 2 inches of water all the time i got problems with slime and anaerobic smells its a touchy game playing the soggy soil game . The trick is if your keeping the res full all the time, overflow the res with new water every 2-3 days and plastic mulch or a thick mulch 

But i suggest just monitering your water usage and switch between letting the res go dry and spraying your mulch while adding good castings and bokashi weekly/by weekly to keep your mulch colonized.


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## projectinfo (Mar 19, 2019)

Those screw fittings are also called bulkheads, thru hull fitting


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## Avant_Gardener (Mar 19, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> I used 20gal totes but im Switching to multi plant sip beds .
> 
> 
> The totes work good, its just a peat wick . But the plastic degrades and breaks . Its just not ideal long term for this living soil .
> ...


 Thanks for the excellent explanation of growing system..With the KNF ferments, FPJ, FFJ, and Flower Power are you adding to the rezi or applying it on top?


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## projectinfo (Mar 19, 2019)

Avant_Gardener said:


> Thanks for the excellent explanation of growing system..With the KNF ferments, FPJ, FFJ, and Flower Power are you adding to the rezi or applying it on top?


ive been applying on top and watering in with a sprayer... for me just labs , em1,aem goes in the res. 

hyroots been putting flower power in the res im pretty sure


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 20, 2019)

Avant_Gardener said:


> Thanks for the excellent explanation of growing system..With the KNF ferments, FPJ, FFJ, and Flower Power are you adding to the rezi or applying it on top?


This is a great thread and it deserves to be read from the beginning. It would answer a lot of questions and everyone will be on the same page. Not trying to be rude. It's just a lot more fun when everyone is on the same page. I've been trying to convert over to KNF and SIP, but it has taken me a little while.

When I started following this thread, I thought that everyone was using boakshi compost and not just the bokashi bran. None of it made sense! Anyways, I made my first FPJ and it really worked so I'm diving deeper into it now. I have my first EarthBoxes that I just started and if it works out, then I'll probably convert the rest of my room.


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## pollen205 (Mar 20, 2019)

Is microbe life photosynthesis plus probiotic ?


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## projectinfo (Mar 20, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> Is microbe life photosynthesis plus probiotic ?


https://www.webmd.com/digestive-disorders/what-are-probiotics

Stay cheap. Checkout joshua steensland on youtube .

Shango los on youtube 

And @freshwaterfarms__ on instagram

Bare minimum inputs


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## projectinfo (Mar 20, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> This is a great thread and it deserves to be read from the beginning. It would answer a lot of questions and everyone will be on the same page. Not trying to be rude. It's just a lot more fun when everyone is on the same page. I've been trying to convert over to KNF and SIP, but it has taken me a little while.
> 
> When I started following this thread, I thought that everyone was using boakshi compost and not just the bokashi bran. None of it made sense! Anyways, I made my first FPJ and it really worked so I'm diving deeper into it now. I have my first EarthBoxes that I just started and if it works out, then I'll probably convert the rest of my room.


Almost done my first run in the sips.

Im making beds after this run for sure Their great.

Hows yours going now ?


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 20, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> Is microbe life photosynthesis plus probiotic ?


It was hard for me to find information about it, but I finally found what makes this product different. Rhodopseudomonas palustris and Rhodospirillum rubrum. It also has mycorrhizae fungi. I have not been able to use it yet, but I'm probably going to make some Bokashi with it.
_https://www.microbelifehydro.com/our-technology/faqs/_


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 20, 2019)

Some pics of my new EarthBox. Buying the Earthbox was kind of unexpected, so I used the last 2 clones that I had. They were shitty looking clones and they were the worst of the bunch, I already transplanted the better looking ones.
 

Just one week in the EarthBox and these plants are starting to recover. I thought that these would really prove if the EarthBox was everything that Alan Adkisson said that they were. He claimed that he was able to transplant a tomato plant that had mosaic virus and the plant recovered. Anyways, these are Mn deficient. I corrected the soil and foliar sprayed and they are starting to recover. Keep in mind, these were the worst plants that I had and they are starting to recover very well. This is more of an experiment I suppose. If it works, I'm going all in on this method.


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## projectinfo (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Some pics of my new EarthBox. Buying the Earthbox was kind of unexpected, so I used the last 2 clones that I had. They were shitty looking clones and they were the worst of the bunch, I already transplanted the better looking ones.
> View attachment 4304031
> 
> Just one week in the EarthBox and these plants are starting to recover. I thought that these would really prove if the EarthBox was everything that Alan Adkisson said that they were. He claimed that he was able to transplant a tomato plant that had mosaic virus and the plant recovered. Anyways, these are Mn deficient. I corrected the soil and foliar sprayed and they are starting to recover. Keep in mind, these were the worst plants that I had and they are starting to recover very well. This is more of an experiment I suppose. If it works, I'm going all in on this method.
> View attachment 4304033


 your going to like the earthbox , are you following their regime for dolomite and bokashi ?

topdressing anything elese?

em1 or bokashi steeped tea in the res?

any foliar sprays so far?

good luck


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## pollen205 (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> It was hard for me to find information about it, but I finally found what makes this product different. Rhodopseudomonas palustris and Rhodospirillum rubrum. It also has mycorrhizae fungi. I have not been able to use it yet, but I'm probably going to make some Bokashi with it.
> _https://www.microbelifehydro.com/our-technology/faqs/_


On my bottle there is nor rubrum just Rhodopseudomonas palustris ...I really want to know why they eliminate rubrum


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> your going to like the earthbox , are you following their regime for dolomite and bokashi ?
> 
> topdressing anything elese?
> 
> ...


I don't like dolomite because Ca and Mg in excess will lock out K and our plants are K hungry. I've been very careful about how much Mg and Ca I used this round.

I have been making my own bokashi, but I thought that I would try everything exactly like Alan Adkisson suggested so that I don't make mistakes and blame it on the method.
EM1&FPJ in the rez. Name brand Grokashi that I let age for about 5 days, then I covered it with Malibu compost. I forgot the barley, but I have it on hand.
 

For these 2 earthboxes I used EM1 straight out of the bottle and I am expanding the rest of it in gallon carboy jugs. The expanded EM1 should be ready tomorrow and I'll start making flower power(Roberto's Brew) with it.

I didn't exactly have everything on hand that Hyroot uses for foliar sprays, so I cheated and bought BioMin Booster 153 because I follow Dr. Steve Solomon and he suggested it. It's trace minerals because my soil tests always show at least one trace mineral being low.
https://www.kisorganics.com/products/biomin-booster-153

Here is my soil test results. I didn't re-test it after adding Mn, Zn, and Fe sulfate. Anyways, I'm trying to get my K at 2x the recommended level because the creator of this test said that cannabis needs it. Also, I'm trying to keep N at a low level in efforts to raise my brix levels.


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> On my bottle there is nor rubrum just Rhodopseudomonas palustris ...I really want to know why they eliminate rubrum


It was hard for me to find anything at all about this product. It does look like it has several different types of Myco fungi. I know that it is harder to get fungi than bacteria.


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## pollen205 (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Some pics of my new EarthBox. Buying the Earthbox was kind of unexpected, so I used the last 2 clones that I had. They were shitty looking clones and they were the worst of the bunch, I already transplanted the better looking ones.
> View attachment 4304031
> 
> Just one week in the EarthBox and these plants are starting to recover. I thought that these would really prove if the EarthBox was everything that Alan Adkisson said that they were. He claimed that he was able to transplant a tomato plant that had mosaic virus and the plant recovered. Anyways, these are Mn deficient. I corrected the soil and foliar sprayed and they are starting to recover. Keep in mind, these were the worst plants that I had and they are starting to recover very well. This is more of an experiment I suppose. If it works, I'm going all in on this method.
> View attachment 4304033


OMG what couse all that mycelium on top of the soil...loking sooo good
This is soil porn...Can I get this mycelium on top of the soil if I dont habe that earth box and cover like earthbox have


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> OMG what couse all that mycelium on top of the soil...loking sooo good
> This is soil porn...Can I get this mycelium on top of the soil if I dont habe that earth box and cover like earthbox have


I am guessing (hoping? lol) that this is from the grokashi!?


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

pollen205 said:


> OMG what couse all that mycelium on top of the soil...loking sooo good
> This is soil porn...Can I get this mycelium on top of the soil if I dont habe that earth box and cover like earthbox have


It's Grokashi and I've seen people use straw for a cover, but I think that I have been getting spider mites off of my straw. I don't know how else I would get spider mites in the middle of winter?


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> It's Grokashi and I've seen people use straw for a cover, but I think that I have been getting spider mites off of my straw. I don't know how else I would get spider mites in the middle of winter?


hmm yeah thats odd I would bet you are right about that... maybe cover the straw with some dimacetous earth to kill off the mites? Or.. I mean it really looks like what you are doing is working GREAT!!! I just applied my first application of grokashi last night hoping I get some great results like this! I am going to be making some of my own as well but I figured I would start with some base stuff since it is not the much cost wise... soooo much cheaper to make in bulk though. 

Question on your soil test as i think maybe I should try that out. Is there a specific one that you used and was it based on recomendations? Can you point me in the direction?


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## projectinfo (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> It's Grokashi and I've seen people use straw for a cover, but I think that I have been getting spider mites off of my straw. I don't know how else I would get spider mites in the middle of winter?


 spider mites can hangout in your floor cracks , come in off your c02 bottle when you get it changed, your fan if theres no pre filter on the intake , your clothes, hair, your friends .. lots of ways .

looks like the grokashi methods working out for ya ,.

i made my own labs , made kashi out of it and robertos brew and its all working just as fast as em1 . im making my own imputs from here out.


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## projectinfo (Mar 21, 2019)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> hmm yeah thats odd I would bet you are right about that... maybe cover the straw with some dimacetous earth to kill off the mites? Or.. I mean it really looks like what you are doing is working GREAT!!! I just applied my first application of grokashi last night hoping I get some great results like this! I am going to be making some of my own as well but I figured I would start with some base stuff since it is not the much cost wise... soooo much cheaper to make in bulk though.
> 
> Question on your soil test as i think maybe I should try that out. Is there a specific one that you used and was it based on recomendations? Can you point me in the direction?


 ive given up on diatomacious earth , its dusty and very toxic to breath in, and even worse if the dust blows around and lands on your buds.

if youve got spider mites , call a preditory mite company and release some bugs.

and if your in veg , while you wait , dose them with an essential oil mix 
or if youve made your citrus ferment yet try that .

theres soaps as well like yucca, soap nuts and many others.
alot of the time you can spray the spider mites off the plants with water ,.

you could also plant some bean plants and use them as a sacrifice, pests will aim for bean plants first , then you can keep populations in check by throwing away the bean plant and starting over.

hot pepper extract, just boil down some hot peppers , and the dilution ratio is on this thread somewhere ,


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## projectinfo (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Your plants looked fine in the other thread... I have Amazon Prime, but they have a $5 cheaper option if you don't mind waiting a week. Everything is in the kit like the postage, lab fees, container, soil scoop, and bar# that you will use to look up your results online.
> 
> https://www.amazon.com/Soil-Savvy-Understand-Fertilizer-Recommendation/dp/B079GMTHFD/ref=sr_1_2?keywords=soil+savvy&qid=1553204878&s=gateway&sr=8-2


 yah next run il be making a bed like joshua steensland except itll be a sip.

coots soil, straw , diverse cover crop while the rooms fills with vegitation , then when its full and blocks out the light , you knock down the cover crop and flip and it breaks down into food for flower .

it seems like minimum input is best
and hes got it figured out


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> spider mites can hangout in your floor cracks , come in off your c02 bottle when you get it changed, your fan if theres no pre filter on the intake , your clothes, hair, your friends .. lots of ways .
> 
> looks like the grokashi methods working out for ya ,.
> 
> i made my own labs , made kashi out of it and robertos brew and its all working just as fast as em1 . im making my own imputs from here out.


very interested in how to make my own EM 1 or something like it.. do you have a link?


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> yah next run il be making a bed like joshua steensland except itll be a sip.
> 
> coots soil, straw , diverse cover crop while the rooms fills with vegitation , then when its full and blocks out the light , you knock down the cover crop and flip and it breaks down into food for flower .
> 
> ...


I saw a grow that had MASSIVE plants... the recipe in the soil... composted cow manure.. and epsom tomato tone thats IT.. they things GIANTS... granted they were outdoor but they were outdoor in northern WI lol .. so simple imputs really might be best.... last year in my outdoor garden I used JUST composted cow manure... I needed tomato skyscraper cages.. it was ridiculous... needless to say once the ground un freezes around here I will be ordering a literal dump truck load of the shit lol


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> spider mites can hangout in your floor cracks , come in off your c02 bottle when you get it changed, your fan if theres no pre filter on the intake , your clothes, hair, your friends .. lots of ways .
> 
> looks like the grokashi methods working out for ya ,.
> 
> i made my own labs , made kashi out of it and robertos brew and its all working just as fast as em1 . im making my own imputs from here out.


ok so I just googled DIY Em 1 ... I am never buying that stuff again lol wow ez pz


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## projectinfo (Mar 21, 2019)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> ok so I just googled DIY Em 1 ... I am never buying that stuff again lol wow ez pz


 Show non biased me a side me side of diy labs diy imos vs em1


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## projectinfo (Mar 21, 2019)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> I saw a grow that had MASSIVE plants... the recipe in the soil... composted cow manure.. and epsom tomato tone thats IT.. they things GIANTS... granted they were outdoor but they were outdoor in northern WI lol .. so simple imputs really might be best.... last year in my outdoor garden I used JUST composted cow manure... I needed tomato skyscraper cages.. it was ridiculous... needless to say once the ground un freezes around here I will be ordering a literal dump truck load of the shit lol


All cow manure is not the same .

Does your farmrr spray the fields with roundup to stop weeds ??

Do they feed the cows dewormers ?

Do they get antibiotics and steroids ? 

What do they feed them? 
Hope its unfucked pasture..... Roundup lasts 7+ years. 

Is the manure properly composted to reduce the human pathogens like salmonella, listeria, ecoli stuff like that . As well as anaerobic bacteria and fungi that will eventually kill your plant. And uncomposted manure also still is very green and has urine still unleached from it .. .. Urea is a natural form of nitrogen and will burn your plants.


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## projectinfo (Mar 21, 2019)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> ok so I just googled DIY Em 1 ... I am never buying that stuff again lol wow ez pz


If its in a bottle being sold on a shelf , theres a good chance you can make something pretty similar or in nost cases way better .


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> All cow manure is not the same .
> 
> Does your farmrr spray the fields with roundup to stop weeds ??
> 
> ...


Most of the bad stuff would be out of the manure by the time it finishes composting anyways. Manure should be mixed with woody material that has lignin, so you will have humic acid in your compost. According to Dr. Faust and Steve Solomon, it takes about 2yrs for lignin to convert into humic acid, so compost that is less than 2yrs old isn't ready. It's a slow and painful process and that is why it is very hard to find good compost!!! Malibu compost appears to be the only company that addresses quality control. You might get lucky and find an old farmer that knows what they are doing, but most companies will sell you shit that still smells like shit.


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> Do they feed the cows dewormers ?


This is very common, but they only last about 6mo.


projectinfo said:


> Do they get antibiotics and steroids ?


Not so common with small farms, only commercial farms.


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> All cow manure is not the same .
> 
> Does your farmrr spray the fields with roundup to stop weeds ??
> 
> ...


i guess all good points... I do not know any of this information but they are not a huge commercial farm or anything like that. Luckily I have a lot of my own animals (goats chickens pigs) and I have some compost that should be ready to roll this year! I am ALL about trying to get all my own inputs. but also am about using things from the community around me as well... the whole round up thing does scare me though very good point.


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> This is very common, but they only last about 6mo.
> 
> Not so common with small farms, only commercial farms.


yeah these people are selling compost as an off shoot of them having milkers


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 21, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> Most of the bad stuff would be out of the manure by the time it finishes composting anyways. Manure should be mixed with woody material that has lignin, so you will have humic acid in your compost. According to Dr. Faust and Steve Solomon, it takes about 2yrs for lignin to convert into humic acid, so compost that is less than 2yrs old isn't ready. It's a slow and painful process and that is why it is very hard to find good compost!!! Malibu compost appears to be the only company that addresses quality control. You might get lucky and find an old farmer that knows what they are doing, but most companies will sell you shit that still smells like shit.


I did have the where with all to at least make sure that the compost was 2+ years aged.. plus the pile I have has now aged another year..


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> the whole round up thing does scare me though very good point.


Round-Up has a half life. Here is what I found, Copy and Paste...


*What is the half-life of Round-Up:*
47 days

The half-life of glyphosate in soil ranges between 2 and *197 days*; a typical field half-life of *47 days* has been suggested. Soil and climate conditions affect glyphosate's persistence in soil. The median half-life of glyphosate in water varies from a few to*91 days*.


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> Hope its unfucked pasture..... Roundup lasts 7+ years.


I hope that you don't get mad if I disagree. I looked into it when I was getting compost from the "City compost facility". You know, the compost facility where city workers, contractors, and civilians dump yard waste. I was like "you have no idea what is in that shit" but Dr. Faust said that is a good place to get compost as long as you compost it longer. I know that you are familiar with this podcast, but maybe you just missed this episode?
*https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast-episode-11*


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 21, 2019)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> Question on your soil test as i think maybe I should try that out. Is there a specific one that you used and was it based on recomendations? Can you point me in the direction?


A lot of people on here want to make fun of you for getting your soil tested, so be prepared. However, I know of 3x doctor/authors that have talked about the importance of soil testing in their books. Jeff Lowenfels has a chapter dedicated to it in "Teaming with Nutrients". Dr. Faust and Dr. Steve Solomon talk about it on KIS Organic's podcast. I was getting the Mehlich 3 test from Logan labs and Specturm Analytic, but those tests are pretty hard to read. I came across "soil savvy" test and it seems to be my go-to unless I have been making recent changes to my soil.

*https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast-episode-17*
*
https://www.amazon.com/Soil-Savvy-Understand-Fertilizer-Recommendation/dp/B01GIMOG8A/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?keywords=soil+savvy&qid=1553221048&s=gateway&sr=8-1-spons&psc=1*


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## projectinfo (Mar 22, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I hope that you don't get mad if I disagree. I looked into it when I was getting compost from the "City compost facility". You know, the compost facility where city workers, contractors, and civilians dump yard waste. I was like "you have no idea what is in that shit" but Dr. Faust said that is a good place to get compost as long as you compost it longer. I know that you are familiar with this podcast, but maybe you just missed this episode?
> *https://www.kisorganics.com/pages/cannabis-cultivation-and-science-podcast-episode-11*


Yeah ive heard that too, to each their own.

I make worm compost and have access to a few sources of great compost that i dont have to continue to try to clean up.

Less inputs that could contain peoples sprayed lawn clippings is my motto.

Also got alot of access to small farm manure thats been taken care of, if im going to spend any time re composting my meterial, it will be from quality sources like local beach seaweed, fish compost, hay, straw, manure,

I stand by the "you dont know what people put in there."

Ive watched a a customer pur a jug a mixes gas into one of those leaf bags for collection day befor because he didnt know what elese to do with the old gas.

Id rather know exactly whats in my compost every time.

Yah if you mix it througholy, hot compost everything you might get an accurate test.

But still you cant tell me there isnt a chance people do stupid shit .
But if thats the old compost you xan make or have access too . Maybe its better than nothing.

Last year i went to forest and collect bags and bags of leaves .. This year il be loading the trailer with leaves and seaween and manure and hay

And mustang i aint mad bud , i just tend to disagree alot lol


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## SSGrower (Mar 22, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> Last year i went to forest and collect bags and bags of leaves .. This year il be loading the trailer with leaves and seaween and manure and hay
> 
> And mustang i aint mad bud , i just tend to disagree alot lol


Gonna ask you to please not do this.
In nature there is a balance, although your collection was likely insignificant, what would the impact of 1000 people doing it be?
There are plenty of sources for good compostable material withiout the built in ineffeciencs of small scale invasions into natural pristine environmets.

I aint mad just my .02.


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## projectinfo (Mar 22, 2019)

SSGrower said:


> Gonna ask you to please not do this.
> In nature there is a balance, although your collection was likely insignificant, what would the impact of 1000 people doing it be?
> There are plenty of sources for good compostable material withiout the built in ineffeciencs of small scale invasions into natural pristine environmets.
> 
> I aint mad just my .02.


 True.


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## projectinfo (Mar 22, 2019)

SSGrower said:


> Gonna ask you to please not do this.
> In nature there is a balance, although your collection was likely insignificant, what would the impact of 1000 people doing it be?
> There are plenty of sources for good compostable material withiout the built in ineffeciencs of small scale invasions into natural pristine environmets.
> 
> I aint mad just my .02.


 What are you collecting for making large compost piles and worm bins?

We have a large plot of land im making roads in and ive got huge piles of brush, fallen trees and i saved the forest duff in a big wind row along the whole road .

Im going to use it tho . But yeah, not everyone should just go disturb nature , i see it like its the byproduct of my buisness. Misewell turn it into compost to clean it up.

And theres lots of old rotten hay bales around

And the seaweed washes up on beaches and it gets piled up and dried out . No good.

Some things theres an abundance, or its going to be lost anyways from doing construction. Im speeding up the breakdown and speading it around town .


Feeding the community and creating new rich soil, Its not all doom and gloom but i get your point


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 22, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> Yeah ive heard that too, to each their own.
> 
> I make worm compost and have access to a few sources of great compost that i dont have to continue to try to clean up.
> 
> ...


I filled a garden bed with the "City Compost" and I hated it very much. I was very surprised when Dr. Faust suggest to use it. If you listen to the podcast, Tad Hussey gave Dr. Faust an oprotunity to sell some of his products from BioAg when he asked if you could add humic acid to a compost pile because it takes so long to break down. Instead, he suggested to use the city compost and let it age longer. I thought that he would suggest using Leonardite or Oxidized Lignite from mines, but I was wrong! This is the stuff that comes out of the mines.






https://www.amazon.com/Down-Earth-100523982-Granular-Humic/dp/B01IWBPM4W/ref=asc_df_B01IWBPM4W/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=229261240507&hvpos=1o1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=14260948779634686227&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9026742&hvtargid=pla-382242976771&psc=1


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## projectinfo (Mar 22, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> I filled a garden bed with the "City Compost" and I hated it very much. I was very surprised when Dr. Faust suggest to use it. If you listen to the podcast, Tad Hussey gave Dr. Faust an oprotunity to sell some of his products from BioAg when he asked if you could add humic acid to a compost pile because it takes so long to break down. Instead, he suggested to use the city compost and let it age longer. I thought that he would suggest using Leonardite or Oxidized Lignite from mines, but I was wrong! This is the stuff that comes out of the mines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Righton it does sound good, but im still hungup on the pedestrian collection process.

Has anyone tested for glyphosate in these city composts yet? (roundup) 

And it would have to be a very very thorough test . Every pag that enters the facility is a new vector for contamination.


----------



## MustangStudFarm (Mar 22, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> Righton it does sound good, but im still hungup on the pedestrian collection process.
> 
> Has anyone tested for glyphosate in these city composts yet? (roundup)
> 
> And it would have to be a very very thorough test . Every pag that enters the facility is a new vector for contamination.


When was the last time that you ate at McDonald's? I think that it is funny that people are way more concerned about what they feed their plants than themselves. Not complaining at you, just mad that it is so hard to find decent food. Find out that our veggies don't even have a high mineral content. I'm on a rant. I wish that I could stop by a fast food chain and order a high brix salad!


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## MustangStudFarm (Mar 22, 2019)

meangreengrowinmachine said:


> I saw a grow that had MASSIVE plants... the recipe in the soil... composted cow manure.. and epsom tomato tone thats IT.. they things GIANTS... granted they were outdoor but they were outdoor in northern WI lol .. so simple imputs really might be best.... last year in my outdoor garden I used JUST composted cow manure... I needed tomato skyscraper cages.. it was ridiculous... needless to say once the ground un freezes around here I will be ordering a literal dump truck load of the shit lol


What I can tell from having my soil tested is that manure composts are usually very high in phosphorus and potassium but very low in trace minerals. If you look at a bag of Malibu compost, they use comfrey, borage, and few other things to add the micronutrients. I still haven't completely figured out how to use manure compost, but Alan Adkisson grew up on a farm and ferments helped with him with manure toxicity. He takes pride in the fact that EM1 and other ferments will help reduce toxicity in the soil. It was an eye opener for me because I have been using rabbit manure for a few years and I always had mixed results. At the same time, the worm bin that I made out of rabbit bedding never really had a healthy worm population until this winter when I added several gallons of bokashi to it. I used Azomite and Greensand in the bokashi, so I like to think that it addressed more than one issue. The bokashi warmed up the worm bin during peak winter weather and the worms looked healthier than ever. Red wheat bran has Mn and that is the trace mineral that I was lacking the most. Plus, azomite and greensand have a decent amount of Mn also. I feel like bokashi bran is one of missing puzzle pieces that I have been missing. 

I was about to mix up another batch of bokashi during this weekend. Let me know if you are lost on anything. There is a Grokashi recipe out there but it is pretty expensive to put together, I'll probably do it after next harvest.


----------



## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 22, 2019)

MustangStudFarm said:


> What I can tell from having my soil tested is that manure composts are usually very high in phosphorus and potassium but very low in trace minerals. If you look at a bag of Malibu compost, they use comfrey, borage, and few other things to add the micronutrients. I still haven't completely figured out how to use manure compost, but Alan Adkisson grew up on a farm and ferments helped with him with manure toxicity. He takes pride in the fact that EM1 and other ferments will help reduce toxicity in the soil. It was an eye opener for me because I have been using rabbit manure for a few years and I always had mixed results. At the same time, the worm bin that I made out of rabbit bedding never really had a healthy worm population until this winter when I added several gallons of bokashi to it. I used Azomite and Greensand in the bokashi, so I like to think that it addressed more than one issue. The bokashi warmed up the worm bin during peak winter weather and the worms looked healthier than ever. Red wheat bran has Mn and that is the trace mineral that I was lacking the most. Plus, azomite and greensand have a decent amount of Mn also. I feel like bokashi bran is one of missing puzzle pieces that I have been missing.
> 
> I was about to mix up another batch of bokashi during this weekend. Let me know if you are lost on anything. There is a Grokashi recipe out there but it is pretty expensive to put together, I'll probably do it after next harvest.


I also grew up on a farm in a very very small town my entire life and had a large garden. and not a commercial farm we farmed because we needed to, to eat lol so I have A LITERAL METRIC SHIT TON of experience with manure hahaha.. I do not ever recall using any kind of microbial inoculate but I am sure it was just there through the natural process. I have about 50 animals now (goats chikens pigs rabbits) and will be using varied compost manure sources and I also use my lawn clippings that I have never treated with anything. I want to look into planting some plots of comfrey, borage and other useful inputs I can use. Its a long slow developing road in what I am doing... I really dont believe in just throwing a bottle at a problem.. I tried that and it was always just swing one way swing the other.. never that great balance.. so I started slowly working on soils... One of the people on here from loooong ago I doubt is still here (UncleBen) I think gave me the best insight I have ever had in growing... even though I dont follow it as much as I should lol it was ... get off the internet and get in your garden... listen to your plants (-:


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## SSGrower (Mar 22, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> What are you collecting for making large compost piles and worm bins?
> 
> We have a large plot of land im making roads in and ive got huge piles of brush, fallen trees and i saved the forest duff in a big wind row along the whole road .
> 
> ...





projectinfo said:


> What are you collecting for making large compost piles and worm bins?
> 
> We have a large plot of land im making roads in and ive got huge piles of brush, fallen trees and i saved the forest duff in a big wind row along the whole road .
> 
> ...


Tending to the land is difderent than harvesting from nature, so forgive me if I misunderstood how the leaves were "collected". 
My compost pile is mostly yard debris like duff that has been pulled back from the side of my house to midigate wildfire risk, I have a chipper so anything too small for the epa class 3 fireplace gets chipped. I do simple pile composting but I cant easily do much in the way of food scraps because of wildlife. And cannabis trim of course.
Seems like the kelp would be excelent additive but based on my land locked status I am not prepared to wager anything on whether ot not it should be left on the shore. Is it a nuisance issue, hazard issue, water quality issue?
Construction debris or anything they would be land filling that could be compsted probably should be, ideally to be repurposed into the finished landscape of the construction project. 
Tried worms before, was too cool in garage over winter, but now that wife is trying to be less carnivore she is opening up to the idea of processing food scraps under the kitchen sink.


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## projectinfo (Mar 23, 2019)

SSGrower said:


> Tending to the land is difderent than harvesting from nature, so forgive me if I misunderstood how the leaves were "collected".
> My compost pile is mostly yard debris like duff that has been pulled back from the side of my house to midigate wildfire risk, I have a chipper so anything too small for the epa class 3 fireplace gets chipped. I do simple pile composting but I cant easily do much in the way of food scraps because of wildlife. And cannabis trim of course.
> Seems like the kelp would be excelent additive but based on my land locked status I am not prepared to wager anything on whether ot not it should be left on the shore. Is it a nuisance issue, hazard issue, water quality issue?
> Construction debris or anything they would be land filling that could be compsted probably should be, ideally to be repurposed into the finished landscape of the construction project.
> Tried worms before, was too cool in garage over winter, but now that wife is trying to be less carnivore she is opening up to the idea of processing food scraps under the kitchen sink.


The kelp is over abundant and the govt has a program in place under a certain amount is free then its pretty cheap by thr tonne if you want to setup and clean the beach


Every time theres a storm, a shitload of seaweed washes up on shore and sits there for months, and starts to smell, attract shitflys and all the tourists hangout on the opposite side of the beach, 

Now the real problem is probably the kelp harvesters disturbing the marine life to get seaweed.

The stuff on shore usually has a bit of garbage but it will be easy to pickout over time as it breaks down . Its no big deal , think of it like your cleaning garbage off the beach


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## SSGrower (Mar 23, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> The kelp is over abundant and the govt has a program in place under a certain amount is free then its pretty cheap by thr tonne if you want to setup and clean the beach
> 
> 
> Every time theres a storm, a shitload of seaweed washes up on shore and sits there for months, and starts to smell, attract shitflys and all the tourists hangout on the opposite side of the beach,
> ...


Give that, IMO that's tending and not pilfering.

That's the only point I wanted to make. I don't want people coming to the high alpine desert of colorado and the mountain west taking the peat thinking it like a peat bog. Here it is much slower to generate.

It eats me alive when organic growers "step over dollars to pick up dimes" just so they can wear the uberorganic badge.


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## projectinfo (Mar 23, 2019)

SSGrower said:


> Give that, IMO that's tending and not pilfering.
> 
> That's the only point I wanted to make. I don't want people coming to the high alpine desert of colorado and the mountain west taking the peat thinking it like a peat bog. Here it is much slower to generate.
> 
> It eats me alive when organic growers "step over dollars to pick up dimes" just so they can wear the uberorganic badge.


 True


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## Covetsculitvars (Mar 23, 2019)

projectinfo said:


> The kelp is over abundant and the govt has a program in place under a certain amount is free then its pretty cheap by thr tonne if you want to setup and clean the beach
> 
> 
> Every time theres a storm, a shitload of seaweed washes up on shore and sits there for months, and starts to smell, attract shitflys and all the tourists hangout on the opposite side of the beach,
> ...


We know sooo little about our oceans dude! Guess with everything melting we should all embrace an aquatic life of some sort or another......no not waterworks with Kevin Costner I hope ....

You wouldn't believe what I take off my local lakes beaches for my compost piles and gardens........most folks would steer clear of.............this applies to my planting sites as well!


It eats me alive when organic growers "step over dollars to pick up dimes" just so they can wear the uberorganic badge.


Lmao when they come to the realization that proper usage of these mediums (ESP not over feeding anything) alongside with the fact that they can be recharged and resumed MULTITUDES of times.........I couldn't agree more!


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## DonPetro (Mar 24, 2019)

I love all-natural, fully composted cattle manure!


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## Covetsculitvars (Mar 25, 2019)

I've got a pile nearby that's four yrs old...........the local farmers are chit masters!


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## Covetsculitvars (Mar 25, 2019)

Hey don,,,,,,,,any chance you have seen any heavy skunk varietals in most recent times!? I'd really enjoy bringing back the lime green lovelies and will say now I'm not driven by financial gain!


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## Covetsculitvars (Mar 26, 2019)

Having nerve damage fixed on my roght side means I'll be dedicating as much energy and time to this thread as I can to learn and help. 
So if you didn't know I grew up on a large dairy farm in central Vermont....mainly gernsies and Holsteins. I could prob shoot the chit here about swine slurries and the like.....lmao I know I know



I'm curious if I could maybe find a grow buddy here..........


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## Covetsculitvars (Mar 26, 2019)

I grew up watching across the fence from a VERY EARLY AGE! I can attribute my knowledgebase to this great program and Charlie nardozzi. Come with me on a journey!





By the way, did u know that for every 1 meter of tree root (healthy trees obviously) there is a kilometer of mycelium!


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 26, 2019)

Covetsculitvars said:


> I grew up watching across the fence from a VERY EARLY AGE! I can attribute my knowledgebase to this great program and Charlie nardozzi. Come with me on a journey!


this video talks so much about the horrible smell of manure.... that smell reminds me of my childhood lol


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## meangreengrowinmachine (Mar 26, 2019)

Covetsculitvars said:


> I grew up watching across the fence from a VERY EARLY AGE! I can attribute my knowledgebase to this great program and Charlie nardozzi. Come with me on a journey!


OMFG!!!! ok this is the best show ever they did a monty python reference!!!!


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## DonPetro (Mar 26, 2019)

Covetsculitvars said:


> Hey don,,,,,,,,any chance you have seen any heavy skunk varietals in most recent times!? I'd really enjoy bringing back the lime green lovelies and will say now I'm not driven by financial gain!


I have not, sir.


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## projectinfo (Mar 27, 2019)

Covetsculitvars said:


> Having nerve damage fixed on my roght side means I'll be dedicating as much energy and time to this thread as I can to learn and help.
> So if you didn't know I grew up on a large dairy farm in central Vermont....mainly gernsies and Holsteins. I could prob shoot the chit here about swine slurries and the like.....lmao I know I know
> 
> 
> ...


 Are you asking for some one to guide you through growing cannabis?


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## Covetsculitvars (Mar 27, 2019)

Nah just a couple friends I can grow,learn and share with man!


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## projectinfo (Mar 27, 2019)

Covetsculitvars said:


> Nah just a couple friends I can grow,learn and share with man!


I seen you posted that you not in it for financial gain anymore , but your still looking for cultivars, and your a new member . 
weird vibe man.


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## Covetsculitvars (Mar 27, 2019)

I have no idea what your talking about. Let's keep this thread where its aim is supposed to be. The TOPICS of organic no till........etc ........you getting weird vibes is a you thing man! I won't feed into the motivations that I can discern brought this about. I refuse to feed into it!


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## MustangStudFarm (Apr 30, 2019)

hyroot said:


> The FPE recipe I'm doing; For flower I'm sticking to using red, yellow, orange fruits. No citrus. Its fermented for 4 weeks total.
> 
> For veg I'm using green plants. All my other veggie scraps go to the worm bin.
> 
> ...


I found the JADAM book and I think that I am just going to buy it. I can find all kinds of stuff on KNF but JADAM is much harder to find info on. So, I have 3 questions.
1) The FPE recipe, is there anything special about it or can I just get a bunch of banana and whatever I find at the store. Banana is good and cheap because I find the bags of marked down produce. I usually buy it for my rabbits, it's like candy to them.
2) Why not use EM1, is there a reason? I just expanded 5gal of EM1, so I have plenty of if. I was going to switch to LABS but I was trying to get a faster start.
3) The fermented citrus spray looks interesting. I'm guessing that it is just LABS/EM1 and molasses with citrus peels?
Thanks!!!


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## outliergenetix (Jun 1, 2019)

add blatticomposting to the thread title.

just got some ivory head roaches to compost along side my worm bins. I figure every 6 months I clean this bin by adding it to my recycled soil mix for insect frass and chiten along with the castings from my worm bins


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## DankTankerous (Jun 2, 2019)

outliergenetix said:


> add blatticomposting to the thread title.
> 
> just got some ivory head roaches to compost along side my worm bins. I figure every 6 months I clean this bin by adding it to my recycled soil mix for insect frass and chiten along with the castings from my worm bins


You are a bold person using roaches. They are one of only a few bugs that really creep me out. Kudos to you, you'll get some amazing black gold!


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## thecosmicgoat (Jul 23, 2019)

I've got in touch with a local brewer and have asked for some malted barley. He says" no problem, Just bring me a bucket. Do you want spent or unspent malt"

So do I want used or unused malt from the brewer? 
Thanks!


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## mr. childs (Jul 23, 2019)

thecosmicgoat said:


> I've got in touch with a local brewer and have asked for some malted barley. He says" no problem, Just bring me a bucket. Do you want spent or unspent malt"
> 
> So do I want used or unused malt from the brewer?
> Thanks!


can you accept a pail of both & see which one works better for your grow ?


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## thecosmicgoat (Jul 23, 2019)

mr. childs said:


> can you accept a pail of both & see which one works better for your grow ?


I don't think that should be a issue. I'll grab a pail of each. 

Do you know if there is a difference to using either one?


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## mr. childs (Jul 23, 2019)

thecosmicgoat said:


> I don't think that should be a issue. I'll grab a pail of each.
> 
> Do you know if there is a difference to using either one?


i use the barley from the pet store for ponds. i'd ask for the unspent, has more nutrients in it


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## MustangStudFarm (Oct 2, 2019)

hyroot said:


> I do ferments. I used to do even amounts of brown sugar and organic material and ferment for a couple weeks. That's the knf method. The sugars trap the microbes and make them go dormant not allowing them to multiply.
> 
> View attachment 4026002
> 
> ...


This is starting to make sense now that I understand it better. I just needed to go back through and read this thread again and it answered a lot of questions that I had. I think that I'll give the FPE another shot because I have these weeds in my yard that are over 6ft tall and there is plenty of them. I have several 55gal drums that are food grade plastic and they have locking lids and a nifty screw in cap the size of a carboy bung that I can put an air lock on. I'm out of LABS but I have 5gal of bokashi bran, can I substitute?


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## Bignutes (May 16, 2020)

MustangStudFarm said:


> On the podcast with Alan Adkisson, he said that SIP is much like the "Hanging Gardens of Babylon". They used LABS in their rez also. I'm kicking myself because I recently invested in 8gal square pots. I might look into SIP after a couple of Harveys.


When they use labs do they add molasses to feed it in the rez?


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## Avant_Gardener (May 16, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> When they use labs do they add molasses to feed it in the rez?
> [/QU


When adding LAB to the a rez, use the appropriate amount unactivated (regular) or activated LABS that is proper method. So, activated LAB is fermented LAB and molasses. Do this every two or three weeks, it would be beneficial to your rez. I hope this answers your question. Cheers!


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## Bignutes (May 16, 2020)

Avant_Gardener said:


> When adding LAB to the a rez, use the appropriate amount unactivated (regular) or activated LABS that is proper method. So, activated LAB is fermented LAB and molasses. Do this every two or three weeks, it would be beneficial to your rez. I hope this answers your question. Cheers!


Thank you for the answer! How much lab and molasses is needed per gallon of water?


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## Avant_Gardener (May 16, 2020)

Here is the Holy Grail of LABS and more than you may want to know.





__





Organic no till, probiotic, knf, jadam, vermicomposting, soil mixes, sips etc... Q & A


LABS: Step 1: Rice Wash 1 Cup of Rice 1 Cup of Clean Chlorine-free water 1 Pint Jar w lid 1 Coffee Filter Place Water and Rice in Jar. Secure lid on Jar Shake Jar for 5 minutes Strain out the rice and keep the white water Place 1 coffee filter on top of jar and secure the band without...



www.rollitup.org


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## madvillian420 (May 16, 2020)

Why is "no-till" a good thing? i reused some old soil from my last grow recently and it was quite compact/tangled with roots. I broke it all up and put it into a new pot, loosely. isnt that more ideal than soil that was compacted by months of life and being watered ?


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## PadawanWarrior (May 16, 2020)

madvillian420 said:


> Why is "no-till" a good thing? i reused some old soil from my last grow recently and it was quite compact/tangled with roots. I broke it all up and put it into a new pot, loosely. isnt that more ideal than soil that was compacted by months of life and being watered ?


You break up the fungal hyphae network when you mix it up. No-till doesn't disturb it.


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## madvillian420 (May 16, 2020)

PadawanWarrior said:


> You break up the fungal hyphae network when you mix it up. No-till doesn't disturb it.


ah, makes sense.


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## outliergenetix (May 20, 2020)

i'm at work so i was just skimming these recent comments. to whomever said they are kicking themselves for not buying SIP containers i would say you can use a SIP method in any pot, especially fabric pots. you just water from the bottom. i don't do that atm because i don't have enough saucers to pull it off with my containers but even veggie gardening when i started stuff indoors i would water from the bottom. it definitely aids in root developement imo. plus it is easier to get the right amount of water. for example just pour little in the bottom saucer at a time and when it stops being sucked up and absorbed it saturated


----------



## Bignutes (May 20, 2020)

outliergenetix said:


> i'm at work so i was just skimming these recent comments. to whomever said they are kicking themselves for not buying SIP containers i would say you can use a SIP method in any pot, especially fabric pots. you just water from the bottom. i don't do that atm because i don't have enough saucers to pull it off with my containers but even veggie gardening when i started stuff indoors i would water from the bottom. it definitely aids in root developement imo. plus it is easier to get the right amount of water. for example just pour little in the bottom saucer at a time and when it stops being sucked up and absorbed it saturated


I agree, in early flower i went 13 days between watering, only reason why I changed the water out is my lab is currently brewing and the rez got a little smelly. I could see once I have my lab in not having to water for 3-4 weeks in early flower and maybe every 10 days in mid to late flower. My clone hasnt been watered in over two weeks and my 9l pots areare going to be filled with pumice in bottom 2 inches for veg coming up.


----------



## outliergenetix (May 20, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> I agree, in early flower i went 13 days between watering, only reason why I changed the water out is my lab is currently brewing and the rez got a little smelly. I could see once I have my lab in not having to water for 3-4 weeks in early flower and maybe every 10 days in mid to late flower. My clone hasnt been watered in over two weeks and my 9l pots areare going to be filled with pumice in bottom 2 inches for veg coming up.


yea andit's nice because it does keep an optimal /oxygen/moisture. basically idles at feild capacity. that said i like watering from the bottom even if not using a self watering system. to me just watering your saucer instead of the top of the soil has allot of benefits. the only time i'd say to top water is realy when you are feeding with a top dressing, which i do do at flip. i usually give em a boost with a top dress of varied guanos(one high N one high P) and langbenite(for sulfur/mag and high K)


----------



## Bignutes (May 20, 2020)

outliergenetix said:


> yea andit's nice because it does keep an optimal /oxygen/moisture. basically idles at feild capacity. that said i like watering from the bottom even if not using a self watering system. to me just watering your saucer instead of the top of the soil has allot of benefits. the only time i'd say to top water is realy when you are feeding with a top dressing, which i do do at flip. i usually give em a boost with a top dress of varied guanos(one high N one high P) and langbenite(for sulfur/mag and high K)


Yeah, no slow down in growth ever! 

I've got two soil recipes in the SIPS currently, a real fluffy airy mix with rice hulls that doesn't root bound coming out of plastic pots and a subcool modified soil with some coco in it. The rice hull recipe dries out in the top 3-4 inches needing top water, the modified subcool recipe doesn't need any top water as roots are right to the top. Thinking of doing the same top dress with green manure.


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## outliergenetix (May 20, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> Yeah, no slow down in growth ever!
> 
> I've got two soil recipes in the SIPS currently, a real fluffy airy mix with rice hulls that doesn't root bound coming out of plastic pots and a subcool modified soil with some coco in it. The rice hull recipe dries out in the top 3-4 inches needing top water, the modified subcool recipe doesn't need any top water as roots are right to the top. Thinking of doing the same top dress with green manure.


i had a sample of rice hulls from a store before. i did like em, but i would say for me making soil and gardenign in a closed loop fashion is as much a hobby as growing cannabis. i try and make my soil using all my waste etc and not buy anything. not for any reason it is superior just what i enjoy and what i think is responsible. for this reason i dont really have any way of aerating a mix with say rice hulls, perlite etc... i used to use all my old hydroton rocks in my soil but i even stopped that as i have finally got the right moisture holding capacity im after. maybe not perfect for a long term sips, but for me it works. i did this by using a higher ratio of coco in my customized coots mix. i used coco instead of sphagnum or peat moss for this reason. it is a hassle i have to now worry about cal/mag in my soil grows with all the coco but it is worth it to not have to aerate the soil with perlite or anything. this is not exact but a good way to think of my soil is pure coco with high grade compost i make. i do have other additives on hand for immediate issues or an extra boost but mainly i just make my own stuff.


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## Bignutes (May 20, 2020)

outliergenetix said:


> i had a sample of rice hulls from a store before. i did like em, but i would say for me making soil and gardenign in a closed loop fashion is as much a hobby as growing cannabis. i try and make my soil using all my waste etc and not buy anything. not for any reason it is superior just what i enjoy and what i think is responsible. for this reason i dont really have any way of aerating a mix with say rice hulls, perlite etc... i used to use all my old hydroton rocks in my soil but i even stopped that as i have finally got the right moisture holding capacity im after. maybe not perfect for a long term sips, but for me it works. i did this by using a higher ratio of coco in my customized coots mix. i used coco instead of sphagnum or peat moss for this reason. it is a hassle i have to now worry about cal/mag in my soil grows with all the coco but it is worth it to not have to aerate the soil with perlite or anything. this is not exact but a good way to think of my soil is pure coco with high grade compost i make. i do have other additives on hand for immediate issues or an extra boost but mainly i just make my own stuff.


I'm getting there but just bought a bag of chicken shit fert with food web additives, couldn't pass up on the price. I like coco but have found dolomite lime raises ph too much so now add gypsum instead. Rice hulls make the soil seem chalky, it's a weird texture. Testing still in process. I'm really getting into making my own stuff like dandelion leaves are 1-0.15-1.18, it's a pretty good ratio for flower and they are everywhere. Also wheat bran at 2.7-2.9-1.6, alfalfa at 3-2-2. Fish emulsion at 5-1-1. Seems like with all four of those it's good for all stages.


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## outliergenetix (May 20, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> I'm getting there but just bought a bag of chicken shit fert with food web additives, couldn't pass up on the price. I like coco but have found dolomite lime raises ph too much so now add gypsum instead. Rice hulls make the soil seem chalky, it's a weird texture. Testing still in process. I'm really getting into making my own stuff like dandelion leaves are 1-0.15-1.18, it's a pretty good ratio for flower and they are everywhere. Also wheat bran at 2.7-2.9-1.6, alfalfa at 3-2-2. Fish emulsion at 5-1-1. Seems like with all four of those it's good for all stages.


i hear ya. i started my soil which i've been recycling for cpl years now with cow&chicken manure/coco/castings and bokashi with some azomite etc so i also bought stuff to start it. i have since been adding in my own organic compost from my worm bins, roach bins or compost pile and occasionally i will add some more coco to keep the organic matter and inert coco ratio where i like it. even still though i keep about 4-5 down to earth organic ammendments on hand(kelp meal, alfalfa meal, neem meal, langbenite) as well as 3 differetn types of guano some high p some high n and one in the middle. i also keep dolemite lime for ph up adjustments to soil not water and ferous sulfate for ph down in soil again not water ph. i also keep some cal/mag and silica and humates on hand. ik sounds like alot for closed loop haha. but at this point i mainly use them as top dressing or to adjust for any issues that pop up in a plant with diff needs or my soil drifted ph or something
all that said i do top dress with different ratios of those ammendments at the flip as a precaution since my soil is not an exact science and i can never be 100% sure it has everything for the current grow since i am recycling it or adding to it all the time, imo the top dressing just gets composted into the soil instead of me adding it to the bulk soil container and having to mix it between grows each time even if it was not neded for the current plants.


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## outliergenetix (May 20, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> I'm getting there but just bought a bag of chicken shit fert with food web additives, couldn't pass up on the price. I like coco but have found dolomite lime raises ph too much so now add gypsum instead. Rice hulls make the soil seem chalky, it's a weird texture. Testing still in process. I'm really getting into making my own stuff like dandelion leaves are 1-0.15-1.18, it's a pretty good ratio for flower and they are everywhere. Also wheat bran at 2.7-2.9-1.6, alfalfa at 3-2-2. Fish emulsion at 5-1-1. Seems like with all four of those it's good for all stages.


tbh i have yet to use my dolemite lime lol. my soil for whatever reason has been drifting up. i was actually battling all kinds of issues on a recent grow and concluded it was ph issue because nothing was fixing it and the symptoms were varied. i shoulda done it earlier but when i tested my soil ph it was like 8 lol. so for that grow in progress i started watering with water ph'd to 5 so it would drift through the ranges on its way to 8 while the ferrous sulfate took 1-3 months to make a permanent adjustment to the entire soil batch i have. i havemore than i use to be clear. i have all the soil in my pots and another bin that is always cooking then i havethe other compost bins i mentioned before to. but yea i have not had issue with drifting down yet. i think it went up from one of the mineral additives i forget tbh. i wanna say adding allot of azomite or langbenite or somethign is how it got so high. i dont rememebr what i concluded was the cause at this time
right on with the dandelion ratios and all!!!! that is how i do it. i pay attention to soluble and all very closle. this is why i use langbenite actually it is the only way to get that k on demand to balance out the p
im thinking next i may add or play with some fermented plant juices. my issue there though is i dont ever bring stuff from outside indoors anymore as i had mites a long time ago doing that. i do use pine needles as a top mulch from outside but i boil em in a giant crab pot first
also, i add allot of water from my coffe grounds or pasta and veggies i boil for food. boiling veggies leaves allot of soluble npk and minerals in the water. bean water adds sulfur and allot to and pasta water provides carbs for the critters and microbes  pro tip lol


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## Bignutes (May 20, 2020)

Wow, like the stuff you do! I like your protip, going to have to save my pasta water too. 

I am a little concerned with bringing stuff from outdoors but I think if I make green manure out of the dandelion leaves and partly cook it in the vitamix it should kill all things. I am also thinking of adding silt from the river, we are 50 km from the Rockies and I feel that why buy glacial dust when it's deposited out my back door, going to cook it in the oven first. The rocks in the gravel bars are a real mix of everything and shit just flat out grows in this silt.

If you have a ph problem nail it with lemon juice and water a few times with or without plants in it. I did this at the suggestion of @DoubleAtotheRON and it works great. I used something like ph 3.4 water on 7.6ish soil and it brought it down to 7.1ish permanently. Plants didn't mind either if done periodically. It needs to be real low to take the buffering capacity out of soil. Just make sure the water is well buffered at less than 4, ideally imo get it to 3.2-3.5. Almost a full 1 litre lemon juice bottle per 5 gal pail kinda thing.


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## outliergenetix (May 20, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> Wow, like the stuff you do! I like your protip, going to have to save my pasta water too.
> 
> I am a little concerned with bringing stuff from outdoors but I think if I make green manure out of the dandelion leaves and partly cook it in the vitamix it should kill all things. I am also thinking of adding silt from the river, we are 50 km from the Rockies and I feel that why buy glacial dust when it's deposited out my back door, going to cook it in the oven first. The rocks in the gravel bars are a real mix of everything and shit just flat out grows in this silt.
> 
> If you have a ph problem nail it with lemon juice and water a few times with or without plants in it. I did this at the suggestion of @DoubleAtotheRON and it works great. I used something like ph 3.4 water on 7.6ish soil and it brought it down to 7.1ish permanently. Plants didn't mind either if done periodically. It needs to be real low to take the buffering capacity out of soil. Just make sure the water is well buffered at less than 4, ideally imo get it to 3.2-3.5. Almost a full 1 litre lemon juice bottle per 5 gal pail kinda thing.


i have to disagree with the lemon thing to a degree, only because i used limes for years to ph my water and rid my tap water of chloramines. i've actually mentioned it in several threads myself to recommend it to ppl on here. i only recently stopped and dont ph my water at all anymore, i still use limes occasionally but only to to rid water of chloramines so they aren't getting chloramines with every watering because too much chloramine is bad for microbes. if you didnt know that is the real benefit of using citrus fruit to ph water, it's that the citric acid aka ascorbic acid, neutralizes chloramines. you can use vitamin C powder or tablets to but why not just use the fruit right lol/. anyway what i was driving at though regarding that advice you got is water ph with ph up/dow or limes or lemons or whatever really doesn't have any long lasting effect or really any effect at all on soil ph. my soil went up to 8 as i said recently and i was using limes then with every watering as i said. lemons and limes are great to add but it isnt gonna effect ph of soil . the sugars though feed microbes about 1/2-1 lime will ph about 5 gallons of water from 7 to 6 approx and neutralize chloramines if you dont have an ro system.
btw i do realize allot of articles say lemon or citrus will lower soil ph and ik you had that experience but the truth is that is not usually a long lasting change. it really isn't even always changing it. in many cases it can be more a product of the poor way we have to test soil ph. saturating soil and ph'ing the run off is not really accurate but its all we got. if you want to make it a little more accurate though what you do is saturate the soil till right before you get any run off then let it sit for an hour so the soil/solution equilibrium comes to rest. then run a little more water through it and check that run off. changing the ph of soil is not as easy as changing the ph of the water. there is allot of chemistry going on there. the only or most reliable way if ferrous sulfate or elemental sulfur. you will even read aluminum sulfate works, and like a lemon it sorta does but not to the more long lasting permanent effects of ferrous sulfate or elemental sulfur. fyi iron sulfate is same as ferrous sulfate
i get most of my information from agricultural sources not cannabis sources. the cannabis community is littered with shitty info passed down over the years. more accurate info exists on sites and sources that are meant for professional farmers more so than ppl who's only growing experience is cannabis, even if those ppl are excellent at growing cannabis i find it's better to use a more general gardening approach than following cannabis growers when learning


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## Bignutes (May 20, 2020)

Ph drift will happen if ppm of water- calcium carbonate is 150 ppm or more, the reverse is true to if you drop it. The key is to buffer the water to the acidic side by a lot thats why i recommend getting it really low less than 3.5. Distilled or ro water takes ph changes readily and wont work very well unless you add a lot of lemon juice to buffer it well, tap water requires even more lemon juice as its already buffered to the basic side but either one will work as long as its buffered enough. True there is some chemistry going on but it's not that complicated. Acid rain works the same way to acidity soil, if this was as difficult to swing the ph as your suggesting then it would need to rain acid rain 24/7 for this to occur.

Ascorbic acid is different than citric acid, two entirely different compounds.


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## outliergenetix (May 20, 2020)

Bignutes said:


> Ph drift will happen if ppm of water- calcium carbonate is 150 ppm or more, the reverse is true to if you drop it. The key is to buffer the water to the acidic side by a lot thats why i recommend getting it really low less than 3.5. Distilled or ro water takes ph changes readily and wont work very well unless you add a lot of lemon juice to buffer it well, tap water requires even more lemon juice as its already buffered to the basic side but either one will work as long as its buffered enough. True there is some chemistry going on but it's not that complicated. Acid rain works the same way to acidity soil, if this was as difficult to swing the ph as your suggesting then it would need to rain acid rain 24/7 for this to occur.
> 
> Ascorbic acid is different than citric acid, two entirely different compounds.


the same thing you are saying about ro water is true of soil to though. it doesnt readily take to ph change. on top of that certain types of soil do so more readily. clay soil;'s ph for example is more readily changed. as for acid rain there is quit a bit of chemistry happening to i'm fairly certain, allot having to do with sulfur compounds like sulfer dioxide in the air, which i beleive are in large quantities in acid rain, which are ironically the compounds that will actually change soil ph for real. i.e aluminum sulfate(thoigh not as well), iron/ferrous sulfate, elemental sulfur. acid rain is acid rain not just because it has an acidic ph, but because of how it becomes acidic. in other words it is the sulfur dioxode etc that creates the acid rain and in tyurn puts the sulfur and it's compounds into the soil to make it also acidic im fairly certain, of course nothing is absolute or black and white, but in a broad sense i think this is true. can't say i am an acid rain expert though lol.
on a less scientific note though i would think a lemon orchard in nature not farmed would kill itself off if lemons themselves had an drasticlong lasting effect on soil ph. the reason i say this is the ever dropping and decomposing lemons falling off the tree enmasse anually would make the soil after decades have a ridiculous low ph and it would always be getting less over time. ik it's a juvenile and exxagerated example but i think it holds some water. besides all ik is i used limes every watering and my ph always drifts up as i said. i only stopped using limes after the ph issue when i saw first hand how little getting water ph between 6-7 really didnt matter with soil. this is again because like ro water you mentioned soil is resistant to ph changes naturally .
thanks for the info btw


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## Bignutes (May 20, 2020)

Yearnin for the learnin, that's what it's about, the journey.


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## loco41 (May 21, 2020)

Really enjoyed your guy's conversation yesterday, lots of good stuff to mull over. I agree with the rice hulls adding a weird texture to the soil when initially mixed in, but I personally like them a lot. I like that they break fully down into the soil after some time, but not too fast. I got some BAS when I initially built my first soil a few years ago and have recycled fresh hulls on most recycles since. They have since all disappeared as I haven't bought new hulls and ran out a while back, but they served their purpose for aeration and have now just added to the organic material in the mix (i know I read somewhere along the way that they are high in silica too, so another blessing). I did use some pumice as well for aeration, but I will probably continue use the hulls as half the aeration in all my mixes to come. A local shop near me just started carrying hulls at a reasonable price for 4 cu ft (not in colorado anymore so shipping my "ideal" aeration is too absurd). Not sure what I will use for the other half of aeration in my next mixes, but will continue looking. That same shop with the hulls carries some pumice, but it is pretty fine, so not really sold on using it just yet. Any thoughts on some common locally found alternatives to pumice/perlite?


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## Bignutes (May 21, 2020)

loco41 said:


> Really enjoyed your guy's conversation yesterday, lots of good stuff to mull over. I agree with the rice hulls adding a weird texture to the soil when initially mixed in, but I personally like them a lot. I like that they break fully down into the soil after some time, but not too fast. I got some BAS when I initially built my first soil a few years ago and have recycled fresh hulls on most recycles since. They have since all disappeared as I haven't bought new hulls and ran out a while back, but they served their purpose for aeration and have now just added to the organic material in the mix (i know I read somewhere along the way that they are high in silica too, so another blessing). I did use some pumice as well for aeration, but I will probably continue use the hulls as half the aeration in all my mixes to come. A local shop near me just started carrying hulls at a reasonable price for 4 cu ft (not in colorado anymore so shipping my "ideal" aeration is too absurd). Not sure what I will use for the other half of aeration in my next mixes, but will continue looking. That same shop with the hulls carries some pumice, but it is pretty fine, so not really sold on using it just yet. Any thoughts on some common locally found alternatives to pumice/perlite?


I agree rice hulls are a really good amendment. I find they are the best to break up either compacted or gummy, clay like soil and on a volume per volume basis are highly effective, even more so than coco. Where coco shines is it's moisture retention. But where rice hulls really shine is when they decompose their NPK is 1.9-0.48-0.81, C:N is 14:1, ph is 7.0, it's like the gift that keeps on giving, and especially good flower ratio and since it's there in volume it's overall amount for npk is actually quite a large reserve of slow release nutrients. All really good numbers along with micronutrients, the same can't be said for coco. When coco fibres break down they end up consuming more ca,mg which if your in tune with shouldn't matter but you have to babysit the soil with coco. Rice hulls also feed the food chain with a mycelium mat but coco when mixed with soil 40:60 ratio has given me earthworms.

Research article on rice hulls:
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=[URL]https://www.ajol.info/index.php/joafss/article/view/33757&ved=2ahUKEwjMpa-uicXpAhUBPH0KHRUHBboQFjAQegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw3ijfqgqOkEp48LEEVUfXCl[/URL]

Its got me thinking from my two soil recipes, one a coco based modified subcool soil and the other a rice hull soil in the SIPS that a 10-15% coco, 10-15% rice hull, 10-15% pumice would be an ideal soil for a 12" high pot, sip or no sip. My subcool soil in a plastic 15" high pot is moist right to the top and plants are waterlogged a little too much. My fabric 10 gal (12" high) rice hull soil is dry for first 3-4 inches, my modified subcool soil in fabric 10 gal pots (again 12" high) is moist to the top with surface roots under the plastic cap. Possibly too wet below but plants seem to be doing good in it.

The roots don't circle the pot in my rice soil and in a plastic pot it acts more like a fabric pot. Coco does circle the pot moreso but nowwhere near as bad as a heavier soil. Pumice, perlite don't even come close to providing this as rice hulls. I do add pumice just to keep a base level of aeration once the hulls decompose and it works well in a sip wick. A 60% dry peat to 40% pumice sems to work well as a wick.

Find rice hulls at a brewers store, not all carry it ime, about a third of the places I contacted do and two places were willing to sell a 50 lb bag to me, one of which I picked up for $50.


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## BluntMoniker (Jun 1, 2020)

Got a question for anyone with experience making LABS..

I made my rice wash, tomorrow will be day 7.. it LOOKS right compared to what hyroot's looks like in the vid, but want to be sure the smell of rancid ass (for lack of better description) is normal lol

I'm sure fermented rice starch isnt supposed to smell pleasant, but before I move further along, was hoping someone with more experience can let me know what the rice wash normally smells like after a week


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## Avant_Gardener (Aug 16, 2020)

BluntMoniker said:


> Got a question for anyone with experience making LABS..
> 
> I made my rice wash, tomorrow will be day 7.. it LOOKS right compared to what hyroot's looks like in the vid, but want to be sure the smell of rancid ass (for lack of better description) is normal lol
> 
> ...


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## Magicbeanz007 (Aug 16, 2020)

3 days rice wash should smell sweet, you could use kiffer to start it instead of rice wash produced better vitamins b complex.


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## CrunchBerries (Nov 24, 2020)

Is the green spotting cool or do we have a problem?


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## P10p (Nov 24, 2020)

Hate these types of threads where a poster comes in with his "let me teach you" attitude.

No dont teach me, tell me your findings and methods. I will then draw a sensible conclusion. Dont try to "school" people.

You just make yourself look like a jackass imo.


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## hyroot (Dec 10, 2020)

P10p said:


> Hate these types of threads where a poster comes in with his "let me teach you" attitude.
> 
> No dont teach me, tell me your findings and methods. I will then draw a sensible conclusion. Dont try to "school" people.
> 
> You just make yourself look like a jackass imo.


Sounds like your projecting. Please show me where I said Let me teach you. My initial post said



hyroot said:


> I'm back. Did you miss me? I'm making this thread about everything organic to answer anyone's questions on how to do anything organic. I read through a bunch of threads in this section and I'm seeing a lot of misinformation.
> 
> Post any questions you might have and I'll do my best to answer them.
> 
> I will also post my tutorials here as well.



You just made yourself out be a jack ass. newb I bet you still learned quite a bit from this thread

My tutorial are step by step on how to make specific ferments, imo's, and soil mixes that have been proven by millions of people over the last 85 years


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## Avant_Gardener (Dec 11, 2020)

hyroot said:


> Sounds like your projecting. Please show me where I said Let me teach you. My initial post said
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This tread was my primary catalyst for KNF techniques. I still have a ton of notes from here. I just wish the tread was more active. Much appreciation for all the information here.


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## MintyDreadlocks (Dec 11, 2020)

hyroot said:


> onto ferments. First How to make labs. lactic acid bacteria / lactobacillus.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


boomarked. thanks for the upload chief kief. Who cares if you're teaching! We are lucky you are doing it free. People have high egos and need other hobbies other than growing dank. to humble them out a bit.


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## Leeski (Dec 11, 2020)

https://www.ctahr.hawaii.edu/oc/freepubs/pdf/sa-8.pdf


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## P10p (Dec 11, 2020)

hyroot said:


> Sounds like your projecting. Please show me where I said Let me teach you. My initial post said
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not trying to degrade the wealth of good info here. But as true to form, you're pretty condecending.

You argue that protozoa are fungi, trying to one up the poster contradicting you.


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## JustBlazin (Dec 14, 2020)

great thread, about halfway thru
thanks hyroot
question is it ok to use alfalfa hay cubes made to feed horses? could i use this instead of buying alfalfa meal? its alot cheaper $20 for 50lb
would i have to do anything to it to be able to use it? i am starting a worm bin soon maybe it would be good for them?
or should i just buy regular alfalfa meal? theres also a animal feed store on my way home that sells all different feeds for farms and pets but unfortunately the website doesn't list what they have, ill have to stop in and check to see what they have. would rabbit food be alfalfa pellets?
any info would be greatly appreciated
Thanks


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## sudshead (Jan 10, 2021)

hyroot said:


> Kona sunset under 315 cmh
> 
> View attachment 4028645
> 
> ...


hello hyroot -- I have a dual 315 cmh I got for free and was planning on using it for a 4x4 tent. Just started looking at micromoles in terms of lighting. I think this will be fine for veg but possibly 50% under power for flowering. Curious as to what footprint is under your 315cmh?


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## IIReignManII (Jan 13, 2021)

CrunchBerries said:


> View attachment 4750468
> Is the green spotting cool or do we have a problem?


Green is most likely trichoderma


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## sudshead (Mar 8, 2021)

hyroot said:


> I add a splash of labs and flower power in the resi once a week or when I refill the resi. Then I top feed flower power once a week and top feed labs once every 10 days.
> 
> I would dump the 4 month curd. The whey probably went bad. Start over. It only takes 2 weeks to separate


when you say you add labs - you mean labs before its activated correct?


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## hyroot (Jul 27, 2022)

sudshead said:


> when you say you add labs - you mean labs before its activated correct?


no. raw lab goes bad at ropom temp pretty quickly I used actuvated lab



sudshead said:


> hello hyroot -- I have a dual 315 cmh I got for free and was planning on using it for a 4x4 tent. Just started looking at micromoles in terms of lighting. I think this will be fine for veg but possibly 50% under power for flowering. Curious as to what footprint is under your 315cmh?


i get 3.5 feet x 3.5 feet with other lights over lapping I can do a 4x4

Better late than Never I suppose lol


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## hyroot (Jul 27, 2022)

JustBlazin said:


> great thread, about halfway thru
> thanks hyroot
> question is it ok to use alfalfa hay cubes made to feed horses? could i use this instead of buying alfalfa meal? its alot cheaper $20 for 50lb
> would i have to do anything to it to be able to use it? i am starting a worm bin soon maybe it would be good for them?
> ...


alfalfa cubes are fine.


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## OneHitDone (Aug 3, 2022)

hyroot said:


> no. raw lab goes bad at ropom temp pretty quickly I used actuvated lab
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn, just noticed you are back posting.
Nice to see and hopefully your around more frequently!


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## OneHitDone (Aug 3, 2022)

Bignutes said:


> I agree rice hulls are a really good amendment. I find they are the best to break up either compacted or gummy, clay like soil and on a volume per volume basis are highly effective, even more so than coco. Where coco shines is it's moisture retention. But where rice hulls really shine is when they decompose their NPK is 1.9-0.48-0.81, C:N is 14:1, ph is 7.0, it's like the gift that keeps on giving, and especially good flower ratio and since it's there in volume it's overall amount for npk is actually quite a large reserve of slow release nutrients. All really good numbers along with micronutrients, the same can't be said for coco. When coco fibres break down they end up consuming more ca,mg which if your in tune with shouldn't matter but you have to babysit the soil with coco. Rice hulls also feed the food chain with a mycelium mat but coco when mixed with soil 40:60 ratio has given me earthworms.
> 
> Research article on rice hulls:
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=[URL]https://www.ajol.info/index.php/joafss/article/view/33757&ved=2ahUKEwjMpa-uicXpAhUBPH0KHRUHBboQFjAQegQIChAB&usg=AOvVaw3ijfqgqOkEp48LEEVUfXCl[/URL]
> ...


When purchasing rice hulls that are not "par boiled", do you have any tips for keeping the random seeds from germinating?


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## DankTankerous (Aug 3, 2022)

OneHitDone said:


> When purchasing rice hulls that are not "par boiled", do you have any tips for keeping the random seeds from germinating?


 Boil them in water


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## DankTankerous (Aug 4, 2022)

DankTankerous said:


> Boil them in water


whenever I top dress with hay I always boil it for like 5 minutes, mostly to kill pathogens, bugs, mold, etc. since doing that I’ve never had grass seeds pop. You don’t have to do it for that long but long enough to kill whatever is in it


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## OneHitDone (Aug 4, 2022)

DankTankerous said:


> whenever I top dress with hay I always boil it for like 5 minutes, mostly to kill pathogens, bugs, mold, etc. since doing that I’ve never had grass seeds pop. You don’t have to do it for that long but long enough to kill whatever is in it


I'm gonna give it a go - out comes the commercial size crab cooker. Need to do at least a cu ft per batch to make it not so labor intensive


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## DankTankerous (Aug 5, 2022)

OneHitDone said:


> I'm gonna give it a go - out comes the commercial size crab cooker. Need to do at least a cu ft per batch to make it not so labor intensive


oof, is the amount of rice that didn’t get boiled negligible? May not be labor intensive, still another task


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2022)

I got a quick question here regarding No Till. I'm reusing the soil of my 10 gallon pots right now. After I harvest I just pull the root ball out and add a little soil to replace the small hole where the root ball was and that's it. My question is, the roots underneath, what do they get broken down too? Phosphorus?


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## Jjgrow420 (Aug 17, 2022)

Imo indoors, no till has no benefits. The main idea behind no till is to stop soil erosion in farmers fields.... and when you till, the bottom layer where the tiller blades are, compacts which is not good for a variety of reasons. Indoors you aren't mixing your soil with a tiller, and you aren't compacting the bottom layer by mixing the dirt around. How do you re amend the soil? You need to mix so the food is around the rhizosphere. Certain elements are not very mobile and can take along time to work their way into the area where the plants roots can get at it efficiently (the rhizosphere)
Cover crops, no till, both on my naughty list for indoor. Lol
Don't get me wrong, I believe in these practices, but in the proper scenarios. Not in a pot indoors.


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## Leeski (Aug 17, 2022)

No till 
needs mass as above ain’t going to happen in a 10 gallon fabric


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## Leeski (Aug 17, 2022)

I don’t know if you guys caught this thread/grow really cool insight into Biology ….. 


One Pink Lemonade - no-till cycle 7 in 4 foot diameter pot, 5x5 tent


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## Jjgrow420 (Aug 17, 2022)

Leeski said:


> No till
> needs mass as above ain’t going to happen in a 10 gallon fabric


I think alot of people just follow the heard instead of finding out why no till is used and where and how.... Same with cover crops. Farmers use cover crops in between cash crops for all of the obvious reasons, fixing nitrogen, bringing up deeper nutrients into the rhizosphere, deterring pests, organic matter of the biomass etc etc etc... Yadda yadda.
In a pot, having a nitrogen fixing cover crop can lead to over abundance of nitrogen in the soil especially when you're amending or using teas in the grow cycle. So really you're just putting on a blindfold and shooting in the dark if you aren't getting your soil tested. And not just a standard test but a saturated paste test too. I dunno that's just what I think about the whole thing on cover crops and no till. I think things just get twisted around in the cannabis community, and little cult followings begin. Like the knf guys (ps USA is the only place in the world that calls it knf everywhere else it's just called natural farming. But USA likes to slap labels on stuff so ya). Gosh. Now I'm just baked up and rambling away again like some crazy old coot.
At least I can still recognize it, although the voices are getting louder


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## loco41 (Aug 17, 2022)

I remember reading somewhere that the roots provide a good source of carbon for the soil. I'm sure they add some sort of npk or micronutrients as well but can't provide any info on that. I like to think the rootmass is just another source of organic material for the microbes to stay active and thriving. 

Personally I've never done a no-till type grow, mainly because I can never grow one after the other like I would prefer. After each grow I just dump everything in a big tote and mix it up lightly until its next use. My totes are pretty much just compost/aeration at this point but everything I plant in them seems happy enough for me. Currently have some kale plants doing their thing in my mixes.


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## loco41 (Aug 17, 2022)

Jjgrow420 said:


> I think alot of people just follow the heard instead of finding out why no till is used and where and how.... Same with cover crops. Farmers use cover crops in between cash crops for all of the obvious reasons, fixing nitrogen, bringing up deeper nutrients into the rhizosphere, deterring pests, organic matter of the biomass etc etc etc... Yadda yadda.
> In a pot, having a nitrogen fixing cover crop can lead to over abundance of nitrogen in the soil especially when you're amending or using teas in the grow cycle. So really you're just putting on a blindfold and shooting in the dark if you aren't getting your soil tested. And not just a standard test but a saturated paste test too. I dunno that's just what I think about the whole thing on cover crops and no till. I think things just get twisted around in the cannabis community, and little cult followings begin. Like the knf guys (ps USA is the only place in the world that calls it knf everywhere else it's just called natural farming. But USA likes to slap labels on stuff so ya). Gosh. Now I'm just baked up and rambling away again like some crazy old coot.


I think part of the beauty of diving into the whole organic soil approach is how many different ways you can go about things. I read all sorts of interesting things I'd like to try but never follow all the way through. For me, I always ended up just top dressing some fresh ewc and a tablespoon of this or that and called it a success. Probably wasn't getting the full potential out of the grow but I was happy with the simplicity and end product.


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## Jjgrow420 (Aug 17, 2022)

loco41 said:


> I think part of the beauty of diving into the whole organic soil approach is how many different ways you can go about things. I read all sorts of interesting things I'd like to try but never follow all the way through. For me, I always ended up just top dressing some fresh ewc and a tablespoon of this or that and called it a success. Probably wasn't getting the full potential out of the grow but I was happy with the simplicity and end product.


Ya hey I'm not saying 'do this don't do that' I'm just spitting my 2 pennies for what it's worth. (Prob about 2 pennies)


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## Leeski (Aug 17, 2022)

End of the day it’s what works for you we all have different resources @Jjgrow420 did we talk vinyl Spanish town ?


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## orangejesus (Aug 17, 2022)

Could no-til/living-soil work in a 2x4 tent if using a two 20 gallon pots? Or a 2x4 bed? New to all this, so apologies if a silly question; thanks -


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## loco41 (Aug 17, 2022)

I liked reading through your perspective and I think your spot on. I read through threads with people saying it's their first or second round with this approach and are trying to use the entire arsenal all at once. I think a lot of of what they are doing is repetitive and potentially leads to overdoing a good thing. 

I will always subscribe to a quality compost source being the key, everything else in moderation and things will fall into place.


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2022)

loco41 said:


> I think part of the beauty of diving into the whole organic soil approach is how many different ways you can go about things. I read all sorts of interesting things I'd like to try but never follow all the way through. For me, I always ended up just top dressing some fresh ewc and a tablespoon of this or that and called it a success. Probably wasn't getting the full potential out of the grow but I was happy with the simplicity and end product.


Same, the top dressing has been working out for me as well. Just not all the way sure on the roots that stay there from the grow before. Im practicing no till because it seems like it's the easiest way to grow. Just add water almost. Yeah a true no till environment is self sustaining, I understand that. I also understand the snuff against a 10 gallon pot as a no till grow. I just don't get how a top dressing can't reach the rhizosphere of the root system. Water makes it down there, the worms that eat some of these amendments shit down there...so I don't get how some feel it's a waste of time. Anyways, I digress. So the old roots break down to some form of carbon that the micros feed off of...that's what I'm getting so far.


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## [email protected] (Aug 17, 2022)

orangejesus said:


> Could no-til/living-soil work in a 2x4 tent if using a two 20 gallon pots? Or a 2x4 bed? New to all this, so apologies if a silly question; thanks -


I'm thinking the 2x4 bed would be best for this. I'm on the fence of setting this up or getting bigger pots. With the bigger pots you could still manage them or pull them out if needed. (especially during trimming) Saying that I literally have the 2x4 bed looking at me begging to be used... #firstworldproblems


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## GrodanLightfoot (Aug 17, 2022)

loco41 said:


> I will always subscribe to a quality compost source being the key, everything else in moderation and things will fall into place.


Nearly word for word thats what all the phoney living soil producers use as a scapegoat when they fuck up your garden.


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## DankTankerous (Aug 20, 2022)

For whatever it’s worth, I have a 12 gal SIP, on its second grow of no-till. Half of the soil was from previous grows, other half new, Coot’s mix. I recycled soil grows and would throw the root ball in my worm bin. Between grows in the SIP I grew a cover crop for 60 days. Recycling soil is fine, even better if you have a worm bin. With no till it’s nice not having to remix soil. I think the thing that works with my system is the composting worms. I use hay as a mulch and that gives the roots more room and food for the worms. Other folks use 15 gal+… I’m digging the SIP, it’s been a huge game changer


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## radicaldank42 (Sep 7, 2022)

for doing knf can you use dried unphophated molasses as the sugar? its still a sugar but more a raw form? or does it have to be brown sugar?


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## radicaldank42 (Sep 26, 2022)

you should look into


Leeski said:


> I also inoculated spent ground coffee , both were dried out then sprayed with em1, vac packed left in a warm dark room for 2wks, after 2 wks they were dried out on a heated gator 24c ish for 48hrs shelf life storage , the smell of them drying was amazing smelt of fresh sour bread , ale and coffee …. View attachment 5203495View attachment 5203496View attachment 5203497View attachment 5203498View attachment 5203499


you should look into electroculture. the company earth&grow will hook you up and tel youall about it,


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## Leeski (Sep 26, 2022)

Cool will have a look! think I have read Something at some point about electrical storms and steel rods next to plants ect ….


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## radicaldank42 (Sep 26, 2022)

Leeski said:


> Cool will have a look! think I have read Something at some point about electrical storms and steel rods next to plants ect ….


definetly look that shiut up man lmtyw


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