# Time difference for Cold vs Warm Tincture



## Hobbes (Oct 22, 2008)

Does anyone know why it takes less time to do a cold extraction for an ethenol tincture than it does to do the Warm (Traditional) Method?

I've been searching the web for the past two days and recipies for cold extraction call for 2 to 7 days, where the Warm Method can take 30 to 60 days. I figured the warm alcohol would be a better solvent than cold, the instructions seem counter intuitive.

Anone make tincture? Have any tips? 

I've got an ounce of Northern Lights ground and doing a final drying before putting it through the coffee grinder and into Navy Rum 151 (75%). I think I'll use the cold extraction method so I can get to the tincture by the weekend!

Advice apprecitated, except about my hideous, hideous face. DON'T LOOK AT ME!


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## Hobbes (Oct 23, 2008)

Another thing I was wondering - is it necessary to heat the marijuana to make the THC psychoactive? I've only found one site that says it's a must, perhaps it changes with the type of extraction.

"In whole-plant cannabis, THC content is expressed as THCA (tetrahydrocannabolic acid) prior to decarboxylation into THC, which takes place when cannabis is heated during cooking, and smoked or vaporized ingestion. THCA is a mild analgesic and anti-inflammatory but does not have good affinity with our CB1 receptors, so in order to make a THC-rich tincture that has many of the same therapeutic effects as smoked ingestion (including rapid absorption, quick relief and ease of self-titration), we must convert the THCA in the plant matter into THC prior to extracting it through an alcohol soak. (from Vancouver Island Compassion Society http://thevics.com/cannamist.htm)"

The Definitive Green Dragon (Cannabis Tincture) - Cannabis.com Forums Message Boards - Medical Marijuana, Cannabis Club, Dispensary, News

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Anyone have a link to a great tincture site or forum? Thanks.

​


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## Hobbes (Oct 23, 2008)

I found good recepies for three methods: Hot Extraction, the quickest extraction of cannaboids (20 minutes); suprisingly the Cold Extraction next (2-3 days); and the Warm Extraction longest (30-60 days).

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*Hot Extraction: *

This is a simple and efficient 4 Step process.

*Ingredients:*
1/8oz high quality cannabis
2 oz Bacardi Rum &#8211; 151 proof


*Process Summary:*

1. Chop cannabis very fine (coffee grinder works great)

2. Place in a shallow pan (pie pan with aluminum foil works great) and bake at 325°F for 4-5 minutes.

3. Remove from oven and place cannabis and place in 2 oz of rum (use a small wide mouth mason jar)

4. Simmer in a water bath for 20 minutes. Maintain temperature of the rum/cannabis mixture between 150°F &#8211; 165°F.

5. Strain the mixture and store.


*Dosage:*
One eyedropper is very nice. Two puts you in space. But you should self-titrate. Effects take about 1.5 hours to begin (at least in myself) and lasted for 5 hours (1 dropper) to 7-8 hours (2 droppers).


*Process details&#8212;references and rationalizations:*
1. Chop the cannabis&#8212;more surface area gives means a faster and more efficient extraction.

2. Bake the cannabis. 
In whole-plant cannabis, THC content is expressed as THCA (tetrahydrocannabolic acid) prior to decarboxylation into THC, which takes place when cannabis is heated during cooking, and smoked or vaporized ingestion. THCA is a mild analgesic and anti-inflammatory but does not have good affinity with our CB1 receptors, so in order to make a THC-rich tincture that has many of the same therapeutic effects as smoked ingestion (including rapid absorption, quick relief and ease of self-titration), we must convert the THCA in the plant matter into THC prior to extracting it through an alcohol soak. (from Vancouver Island Compassion Society http://thevics.com/cannamist.htm)​THC vaporizes at about 380°F. We want to heat the cannabis to convert THCA to THC, but keep the temperature under 380°F. That is why 325°F is used. Between four and five minutes your oven (and house) will start to smell very strong. This is the time to remove the cannabis from the oven.

Notice also that there is considerable misinformation regarding heating the cannabis. It is true that you don't have to heat it to extract both THC and THCA, but the amount of THC in whole plant preparations is relatively small compared to after decarboxylation of the THCA. So if you want to maximize the strength of your tincture you must heat the cannabis prior to extraction.

3. Use the highest proof alcohol available. In my area this was Bacardi 151. The more alcohol the more efficient the extraction will be.

4. Simmer the mixture. 
This is one of the areas that seems to be most debated. Many recipes call for placing the cannabis (unbaked of course) into the alcohol and waiting 2 &#8211; 6 weeks. The main concern with heating the alcohol is that it is &#8220;explosive&#8221; (not exactly true...it is however flammable).

The purpose of the simmering is to heat the alcohol mixture to improve extraction rates and efficiencies. Heating during extraction increases the motion of the molecules (basic physics/chemistry) and drastically decreases extraction times. The boiling point of pure ethanol is 173°F (78°C). We will use the water bath to heat the rum/cannabis mixture to just below the boiling point of ethanol.

Heating the alcohol mixture can be done very safely using a hot water bath. You will need an accurate candy or quick read thermometer. Place about 1 inch of water in a wide, vertical-edged pan (9&#8221; wide x 3&#8221; high). Bring the water to a low simmer. The rum/cannabis mixture should be in a small (1 pint) mason jar. Do NOT cover the jar.

Put the thermometer into the mason jar and place into the simmering water bath. Bring the temperature of the rum/cannabis mixture to about 165°F (I maintain it between 150°F and 165°F). You want the alcohol mixture to be just barely moving (not boiling, but showing active convection within the mixture). If the mixture starts to bubble too much, just turn down the water bath.

You should have the oven fan on high. You will notice that any alcohol fumes are mixed with water vapor from the water bath and vented out the fan. This combined with the fact that you are trying not to boil the ethanol makes the process quite safe.

5. Strain, titrate, and store.
When you are finished with the extraction you will be left with about 1oz of green dragon tincture. Note that one ounce of the alcohol has evaporated.

Now you should test your eyedropper. In my test 34 full droppers equaled one ounce of liquid (this is a little less than one gram of liquid per dropperful as 29g equals 1ounce).

The liquid should be dark green and smell like cannabis.

6. Dosage.
Everybody is probably different. It takes me 1.5 hours to feel the effects of eating cannabis. Similarly this tincture also takes 1.5 hours to take effect. 

I had tried a tincture someone had made using the cold extraction method with the same amount of cannabis and found that 5 droppers did pretty much nothing.

Using my Green Dragon technique I find that one dropper will bring effects on in 1.5 hours and last 5 hours with 1.5 hours of lingering aftereffects. 

Two droppers gave me a "spiritual dose" (as strong as any brownie I ever had). Effects lasted 7-8 hours with lingering effects for 2 more hours.

This means that 1/8oz of good cannabis yields about 30-34 doses of tincture (1 dropperful is really all I need). And is much more pleasant than smoking (which really is bad for you and your lungs and the reason I've stopped smoking entirely).


This link might be helpful.
Metric Conversion: http://www.worldwidemetric.com/metcal.htm


Enjoy and let me know of your success and/or questions.

Master Wu 
__________________
Alchemist


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## Hobbes (Oct 23, 2008)

When I first met this guy online I didn't realize that he was an activist and people on the forum said that he worked with the DEA. I was spooked and sort of avoided him, looked the other way when I saw his posts in the forum, until I found out more about him. He got me cooking with cannabis and suggested tinctures, but I was making honey oil back then (blech!) and now I regret missing out on instructions from one of the most cannabis knowledgeable people I ever met, and one hell of a nice guy.​ 

Jay R. Cavanaugh, Ph.D.
AAMC, National Director​ 


Many patients who utilize and benefit from medical cannabis do not wish to smoke due to the perceived health hazards of smoking or for other personal reasons. These patients are in something of a bind. Smoking cannabis delivers the active cannabinoids within seconds. Medicine is absorbed in the lungs and goes directly to the brain and general circulation. The same effect can be achieved with a vaporizer, which is safer than smoking burning vegetable matter. Since the effects of inhaled cannabis are so quick, it is easy for patients to titrate their dose by simply waiting a minute or two in between puffs. 

Oral cannabis, such as our Better Bud Butter, is absorbed in a very different fashion from smoking or inhalation. The GI tract gradually absorbs Cannabinoids over the course of one to two hours. Medicine is processed first by the liver, which converts some cannabinoids such as delta nine to delta 11 version of THC. Orally delivered cannabis requires four to ten times the amount of the smoked version in order to achieve the same effect. Orally delivered cannabis can present a problem in achieving the required or desired dose level in any consistent fashion. 

Tincture is designed to address the problems of rapid medicine delivery and consistent dosing. Most tinctures are made to be used under the tongue or sublingually. English pharmaceutical companies are presently working on a cannabis extract "spray" that can be used under the tongue in a similar fashion. These sprays are not expected to be approved for use in the United States for years and will be very expensive. Absorption by the arterial blood supply under the tongue is completed in seconds. One trick is to not swallow the dose as, if swallowed, absorption will be in the GI tract. Many patients, though, add their tincture to a cup of tea or cranberry juice for easy delivery. When tincture is used in a beverage, absorption will be slower than if absorbed under the tongue. While tincture absorbed in an empty stomach is accomplished in minutes, conversion in the liver remains, as does the difficulty in titrating dose. Usually, a tincture dose is delivered by means of a medicine dropper or a teaspoon. A rule of thumb on dose is that patients receive benefit from 3-4 drops to a couple of full droppers depending upon the potency of the tincture and the patient&#8217;s own unique requirements among other factors.

The methods listed below will detail two major methods of preparing tincture. While the methods are optimized for purity and potency, ultimately these will largely be determined by the purity and potency of the cannabis from which the tincture is made. Another item of note in regard to starting material for tincture is the patient or caregiver selection of strain. A rough rule of thumb is to select Indica dominant strains for cramping and muscle spasticity and Sativa dominant strains for pain relief. The reality, though, is often that the strain is unknown or not well characterized. Trial and error is usually required to acquire the appropriate strain and the proper dose level.

*General Rule*s:
Tincture is an extraction of active cannabinoids from plant material. Cannabis contains many chemicals that can either upset the stomach or taste nasty. One of the goals of extraction is to secure the cannabinoids while leaving out as many of the terpenes and chlorophylls as possible. Both heat and light adversely effect cannabinoids and should be avoided or minimized. Tincture should be stored in airtight dark glass containers kept at room temperature or below. Avoid plastic containers. The ethanol in the tincture may solubilize some of the free vinyls in the plastic.


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## Hobbes (Oct 23, 2008)

*Cold Method with Ethanol*

Making tincture cold preserves the integrity of cannabinoids. To be potent, this method requires starting material high in cannabinoid content such as flowers or kief made from trim and leaf. The material must be mold free and dry. Drying can be accomplished in the freezer (-4-10 degrees Celsius) or better yet by placing in a liquid proof bag into a dry ice/ethanol ice bath (-70 degrees Celsius). Once water has been removed then the surface area of the starting material requires expansion. This can be accomplished a number of ways but two ways stand out:
_Using flowers (bud)_- Place dried buds in a coffee grinder and pulse until thoroughly ground but not powdered. 

_Making kief_- Rub dry trim and leaves over a silk screen. Collect the powder the comes through the screen. It should be a very pale green. "Kiefing" is an age old way of extracting trichomes from plant material.
Whether kief or ground bud is used both should kept ice cold for this preparation. Similarly, the ethanol to be used should also be ice cold throughout the process.

_Selection of alcohol_- ethanol or ethyl alcohol is the form of alcohol that can be used by humans. The proof listed on commercial alcohol refers to the percentage of ethanol that the beverage contains. The proof is twice the percentage, so 80 "proof" means that the mixture contains 40% ethanol. The higher the alcohol content used, the better the extraction will work. Ideally, 200 proof ethanol would be best except that ethanol cannot be distilled to this proof so benzene is used to remove the last vestiges of water. This makes "pure" ethanol poisonous. 

Many folks use "Everclear" which stands at 190 proof or 95% ethanol. Everclear has no taste. Apparently, Everclear is not available in all States. A close second choice is 151 proof rum. This is a light amber liquid that is 75% ethanol that has a sweet taste. One of our caregiver writers will use nothing but Korbel brandy because she likes the taste. Others use iced Russian vodka. These "normal" distilled spirits are 40% to 50% ethanol. Some patients find that the higher proofs ethanols like Everclear and 151 rum burn too much under the tongue. If burning is a concern consider a high quality 90-100 proof Vodka.

_Cold Extraction and purification_- Use at least one ounce of starting material to each pint of ethanol. Place cold powdered kief or ground cannabis flowers together with ethanol in a glass quart-mixing jar. Close the jar tightly and vigorously shake for five minutes then return to the freezer. Continue to agitate the mixture every few hours with refreezing. Continue for a period of two to three days. 

Pour the cold mixture through a double thickness of sterile cheesecloth. Save the cheesecloth "ball" for topical uses or use the material to make bud butter once dried. The liquid collected through the cheesecloth should then be filtered twice through a paper coffee filter. Use gloves throughout the process, as it is necessary to squeeze the cheesecloth and coffee filters to facilitate the extraction. Without gloves some of the material will be absorbed on the skin.

If Everclear is used the tincture will be pale green to golden. If 151 rum is used an amber tincture results. Dark green tinctures mean that excess plant material is present. This does not mean that the tincture will not be potent, just taste nasty. When Everclear is used, various flavor extracts may be added (vanilla, raspberry, etc.). Be careful to use only a few drop of flavor extract.


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## Hobbes (Oct 23, 2008)

*Traditional or Warm Method*

The old fashioned (and effective) way to make tincture from trim, leaf or "shake" is to grind the plant material to expose surface area. A fine grind is not needed and will just make the tincture cloudy. A rough chop will do. Most folks cant afford to use kief or bud for tincture but may have leaf handy. If so, this is the way to go. Use ethanol as described above in the same proportions. The key difference is that in this preparation the materials are kept warm (not hot). Light must be avoided. 


Place the ethanol and chopped cannabis in a large glass Mason jar. Shake at least once a day. Place the jar in a brown paper bag or otherwise shield the jar from light. Leave in a warm spot (near a window) for 30-60 days. The mixture will turn a very dark green. Strain as previously described through cheesecloth. Save the "shake ball" for topical applications. 

While this method produces a nasty tasting tincture, it is powerful. It may upset some fragile stomachs. It is recommended that Warm Tincture be used orally in cranberry juice or coffee with sugar. Keep the filtered tincture in light blocking glass jars or bottles in a cool dry place (refrigerator or freezer is fine). The shake ball should also be kept in the freezer. For topical applications, just take out the cold shake ball and apply a few drops of fresh tincture to the cloth then hold it on the affected area for a few minutes with gentle rubbing.


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## Hobbes (Oct 23, 2008)

If you get into tinctures and eventually want to use more potent alcohol, without tracking down Everclear, you can distill regular vodka to have nearly as high an alcohol content as Everclear. Take a look at the Smartstill, like using a coffee maker.

https://secure.brewhaus.ca/index.aspx?page=productsList&CategoryID=31


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## budbomb (Dec 1, 2008)

Hobbes said:


> Does anyone know why it takes less time to do a cold extraction for an ethenol tincture than it does to do the Warm (Traditional) Method?
> 
> I've been searching the web for the past two days and recipies for cold extraction call for 2 to 7 days, where the Warm Method can take 30 to 60 days. I figured the warm alcohol would be a better solvent than cold, the instructions seem counter intuitive.
> 
> ...


Hobbes: The warm method will take less time that the cold, warm can be done in a day, whereas cold takes a minimum of 2 weeks in my experience. The reason for this is all to do with the rate of diffusion in the solution. When you make a tincture all you're doing is dissolving the THC (an organic molecule) from the weed into the alcohol (an organic solvent). Just as when you dissolve salt or sugar in water, this will happen faster in a warm solution as the solvent molecules have more kinetic energy (are moving faster) so will bump into the solute molecules more often. More solvent:solute collisions will mean more opportunity for the solvent to pick up the solute, therefore faster solvation (ie movement of THC into the alcohol). 

However, there are downsides to the fast method of making green dragon. First off, alcohol is obviously very flamible, so anything involving naked flames/ high heat (alcohol will ignite at 13C, and spontainously conbust as 393C) has the potential to end in disaster.
Secondly, alcohol has a lower boiling point than water (79C) so if your not using a sealed container (dangerous in itself due to pressure build up) you really have to watch out it doesn't all evaporate leaving you with water and a few soggy buds!
Finally, the high temperatures, whille alowing fast difussion of THC into solution, will also increase the rate of thermal decomposition of THC. This won't be by much but its worth bearing in mind that you will lose some of the potency.

Personally, I say good things come to those who wait...


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## Hobbes (Dec 1, 2008)

Thanks!



+rep

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## hackel (Dec 2, 2008)

I just want to say thank you for taking the time to write this post, Hobbes. You didn't get much press but I am glad you did it, because after my first harvest, I'm heavily considering making tinctures as my primary method of consumption for health, stealth and convenience. Thanks for condensing all this info. I searched for days and didn't find nearly this much. Gotta find out how long I can make it with 2oz of bud.... I am gathering that it makes about 16oz of tincture I will +rep you for this when I am able. By the way, do the buds have to be cured or does that affect the end potency at all? I was under the impression that curing is mostly to improve taste and shelflife. I might do the cold method to last me the months that are required for the traditional method that will be taking place right along side the other quicker method.


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## Hobbes (Dec 2, 2008)

No worries hackel, I was searching for a long while too and I thought a thread would be great for collecting different tincture recipies. 

A fellow I know uses Sativex and he's got a chemist friend who's been making tincture for him to refill the spray bottles - which were costing him about $800 a month. He ordered me a book that the two of them used to figure out the process, I should have it this week and I'll post the name and give a review. I can't see it being too much better than Dr Jay's explanations but it'll be good to have something all together that goes from raw product to tincture.

This fellow says that the spray is very efficient, conserves bud.

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## hackel (Dec 3, 2008)

Hobbes said:


> This fellow says that the spray is very efficient, conserves bud.


I like the sound of that! In fact, after my first harvest comes in I will use the cold method and give you a comparison to smoking after it is all done!


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## iloveit (Dec 3, 2008)

Pardon my noobiness but what is Tincture?


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## Hobbes (Dec 3, 2008)

A tincture is marijuana resin disolved in a solution of alcohol/glycerine/grape seed oil/etc.

Great way to ingest cannaboids.

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## hackel (Dec 6, 2008)

It can also be taken either under the tongue or simply swallowed. I am still a novice at weed so I really doubt I understand why swallowing is an option seeing as how you would have to use 4-5 times as much if you did. Is this added body effect worth using up your stores so quickly?


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## hackel (Jan 21, 2009)

Just to update. I started both the Cold and Traditional methods and while the Traditional method is still doing its thing, I wish I hadn't wasted the weed on the Cold method... I may not have done it right, but still... I should have gotten at least something! I will only go the warm method from now on....


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## Hobbes (Jan 22, 2009)

That's what I was thinking too hackel. I'm going to do a water cure to get rid of the chlorophile and terpins, then bake to dry and finish decarboxylizing. That taste is rancid. 

Optionally I might even do an alcohol honey oil extraction then mix the honey oil with fresh alcohol to get rid of the bad taste. I'm still waiting to build up some bud inventory so I can experiment.

Did you bake your bud before extraction? Were the trichnomes ripe?

.


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## blacknhlpower (Oct 18, 2010)

Thanks for the post man! I was going to make mj wine - but now what I am going to do is try to add tincture to wine when bottling it. Hope the taste won't be too bad....?


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