# ditching hps for quantum lights



## cobber (Mar 6, 2018)

currently im running dual cheapo 1k hps setups in a 4x8 footprint ive bought a hlg 550 and im looking for opinions on what i should do. im running aircooled lights and feel like im losing a ton of light with the glass what are your guys thoughts on shutting one of the hps hoods down and replacing it with the quantum or should i just finnish up my run until i get a second hlg light


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## Viceman666 (Mar 7, 2018)

cobber said:


> currently im running dual cheapo 1k hps setups in a 4x8 footprint ive bought a hlg 550 and im looking for opinions on what i should do. im running aircooled lights and feel like im losing a ton of light with the glass what are your guys thoughts on shutting one of the hps hoods down and replacing it with the quantum or should i just finnish up my run until i get a second hlg light


1000w hps and hlg 550 should be pretty similar in terms of perfomance and yield with the main difference being that the hlg 550 will draw almost half the wattage of your hps.. you seemed pretty advanced in your grow so I wouldnt change the hps at this point to not light stress your plant but thats up to you if you want to take the risk. At the end of the day they will do the exact same thing just one is almost twice as efficient compred to the other.. I love the quantum boards! If you use the same strain it would be great if you compare the result sode by side between hps and quantum... hopefully you will share your result with the community  

Also consider that when you will switch your hps you will probably get lower temps (less heat) so I dont know what the temp in your area/room/tent but keep that in mind! Keep us posted!


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## eyderbuddy (Mar 7, 2018)

I'd play the risk taker and change one of the HPS for the boards just to see what happens. I think that as long as the amount of light doesn't drastically change overnight (it shouldn't) there shouldn't be a bad effect on the plants


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## CCCmints (Mar 7, 2018)

eyderbuddy said:


> I'd play the risk taker and change one of the HPS for the boards just to see what happens. I think that as long as the amount of light doesn't drastically change overnight (it shouldn't) there shouldn't be a bad effect on the plants


There would absolutely be a drastic change in the amount of light the plants receive. I tested 1000w HPS @ 24" and it produced 892.79 µmoles/m2/s on a 49 point photometric uniformity test. On the 33 point test HLG showcases on their HLG-550 product page, the HLG-550 produced 625µmoles/m2/s. That's a 267.79µmoles/m2/s difference in photons produced. 30% less light output.

Not to mention the HLG-550 has very poor performance in terms of uniform light distribution. 
1'x1' = 866.66
2'x2' = 774.11
3'x3' = 688.80
4'x4' = 625.00

Even just calculating the HLG-550's coverage of a 1'x1' space produces lesser results than 1000w HPS over a 4'x4' space.

This information isn't esoteric. HLG showcases this data on their website. Its not yet possible to succeed 1000w HPS with 50% less power. I'm not sure how that claim isn't a blaring red flag for anyone looking to invest in a lighting system. 50% less power draw, 30% less light output.


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## OldMedUser (Mar 8, 2018)

I would have invested in a Light Rail® like the one I bought. Planning to use 1 - 1000W Super HPS on it to light up an 8x4 space. Would prefer two 600W back to back for 50% more light for just 20% more power but I got 2 - 1000W so might as well use one. The Rail only uses 9W so cheap to run.


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## OldMedUser (Mar 8, 2018)

Forgot to mention it will run in an open hood so no glass in the way.


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## Viceman666 (Mar 8, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> There would absolutely be a drastic change in the amount of light the plants receive. I tested 1000w HPS @ 24" and it produced 892.79 µmoles/m2/s on a 49 point photometric uniformity test. On the 33 point test HLG showcases on their HLG-550 product page, the HLG-550 produced 625µmoles/m2/s. That's a 267.79µmoles/m2/s difference in photons produced. 30% less light output.
> 
> Not to mention the HLG-550 has very poor performance in terms of uniform light distribution.
> 1'x1' = 866.66
> ...


http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/HorticultureReferenceDesign.pdf

Happy reading ! Stop telling people bullshit because you hate LED.. 500w cob or lm561c is roughly the same as a 1000w hps.. im not saying hps is a bad choice.. with quality LED you just get more efficient and within a few grow at most you get your money back easily.

What you did is what i call misinformation! Your numbers dont take into account height, spread (better uniformity accross the canopy) and less heat too for LED


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## CCCmints (Mar 8, 2018)

Viceman666 said:


> http://www.cree.com/led-components/media/documents/HorticultureReferenceDesign.pdf
> 
> Happy reading ! Stop telling people bullshit because you hate LED.. 500w cob or lm561c is roughly the same as a 1000w hps.. im not saying hps is a bad choice.. with quality LED you just get more efficient and within a few grow at most you get your money back easily.
> 
> What you did is what i call misinformation! Your numbers dont take into account height, spread (better uniformity accross the canopy) and less heat too for LED


I don't hate LED. I'm a proponent for LED. Data for the HLG-550 was collected from their website. Data for 1000w HPS was collected using the SQ-500 quantum sensor from Apogee Instruments at a mounting distance of 24". 

The HLG-550 is not a successor to 1000w HPS, it is inferior. If you want to succeed 1000w HPS, you're going to need more than 500w LED. I'll let you figure out the winning number on your own.


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## IndoorScore (Mar 12, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> I don't hate LED. I'm a proponent for LED. Data for the HLG-550 was collected from their website. Data for 1000w HPS was collected using the SQ-500 quantum sensor from Apogee Instruments at a mounting distance of 24".
> 
> The HLG-550 is not a successor to 1000w HPS, it is inferior. If you want to succeed 1000w HPS, you're going to need more than 500w LED. I'll let you figure out the winning number on your own.


I have to agree with this here. I have two hlg 550s in a 5×10 tent and while I chose the LEDs for power consumption, quality of light output, heat output and the lack of bulb replacement I was looking to maximize grams/watt in a city setting. I just set my harvest down to cure today, and while it will probably dry a touch more but I got 1450 grams off of two 550s with no CO2, no AC, and no trelising from seeds, albiet fire genetics. G/watt is hard to be in such a relatively unadulterated enviornment. 

They work the best or close to it for my space for these various reasons but they are not direct 1k replacements. I love them, and they're nice on the bill and I like reducing my carbon footprint and not spending 180-250 bucks on bulbs a year, but 1ks just put out more juice. I'm guessing 650-700w LEDs in whichever fashion would probably do it.

Just my 2c


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## CCCmints (Mar 14, 2018)

IndoorScore said:


> I have to agree with this here. I have two hlg 550s in a 5×10 tent and while I chose the LEDs for power consumption, quality of light output, heat output and the lack of bulb replacement I was looking to maximize grams/watt in a city setting. I just set my harvest down to cure today, and while it will probably dry a touch more but I got 1450 grams off of two 550s with no CO2, no AC, and no trelising from seeds, albiet fire genetics. G/watt is hard to be in such a relatively unadulterated enviornment.
> 
> They work the best or close to it for my space for these various reasons but they are not direct 1k replacements. I love them, and they're nice on the bill and I like reducing my carbon footprint and not spending 180-250 bucks on bulbs a year, but 1ks just put out more juice. I'm guessing 650-700w LEDs in whichever fashion would probably do it.
> 
> Just my 2c


All of those reasons are why HLG has satisfied customers. LED truly does bring so many amazing things to the table. However, there is no excuse to base your entire marketing strategy off of a blatant lie. The HLG-550 is not powerful enough to replace 1000w HPS. HLG knows this.






1000w EyeHortilux Super HPS with a 1000w Vivosun digital ballast in a Blockbuster reflector. Data collected with the SQ-500 quantum sensor from Apogee Instruments. Data for the HLG-550 was pulled from its product page.

The benefits LED provides can create the illusion that you're buying something somewhat as powerful as 1000w HPS. Quantum boards are overpriced for what they are. China is already copying their products and HLG-550s are a whopping 20% off at the moment. 

They're probably great lights for the veg room, but if you're looking to replace 1000w HPS, I wouldn't waste time experimenting with the HLG-550.


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## IndoorScore (Mar 14, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> All of those reasons are why HLG has satisfied customers. LED truly does bring so many amazing things to the table. However, there is no excuse to base your entire marketing strategy off of a blatant lie. The HLG-550 is not powerful enough to replace 1000w HPS. HLG knows this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is also failing to take into account bulb degradation. After a couple hundred hours those HPS bulbs aren't going to be at peak output anymore. I'd be willing to bet the 550 puts out light just as well if not better than the bulb most people have running right now, assuming it's not brand new. 

Lots of ways to skin a cat, but I think discounting the panels in totality based solely off of initial lumens seems a bit shortsighted.


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## CCCmints (Mar 14, 2018)

IndoorScore said:


> This is also failing to take into account bulb degradation. After a couple hundred hours those HPS bulbs aren't going to be at peak output anymore. I'd be willing to bet the 550 puts out light just as well if not better than the bulb most people have running right now, assuming it's not brand new.
> 
> Lots of ways to skin a cat, but I think discounting the panels in totality based solely off of initial lumens seems a bit shortsighted.


I'm not discounting them entirely. That's why I made the comment about how they're probably great in the veg room. But as a 1000w HPS replacement, they do not have what it takes. Anyone can find this information themselves with a quantum sensor and 1000w bulb. HLG-550 doesn't spread well enough to cover a 4x4 space. You can see that in the data above.

Light degradation is a huge factor. Its something I plan to test. That is one of the reasons I said when running a quantum board as a replacement for your 1000w HPS, you might perceive the HLG-550 to be almost as powerful as your HPS setup. But in reality its just your bulbs have degraded.


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## Viceman666 (Mar 14, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> HLG-550 doesn't spread well enough to cover a 4x4 space.


Just so I understand.. how is that possible that 1152 LED spread over a 2x2 area (or aprox for the hlg 550) have a lower spread than a single light point in a HPS light? 

I just feel its the same debate over and over again but results are there.. hps you will get from 0.5 to 1 g/w and with quality LED (not talking about blurple here) you get 1 to 2 g/w.. 

In fact 650-700w in a 4x4 is all you need to get 1000ppfd at any place over all your canopy if you use something like strips (which use same led than quantum board) which would match a DE HPS.. so 500-550w quantum should get you pretty close to a 1000w SE HPS

You dont believe in LED thats fine but no need to disinform everyone looking for good advice on their next light. 

There has been already a few side by side done but lets be realistic.. in 10 yrs from now we will still have the same debate because its almost impossible to do 2 grow exactly the same way.. and then compare results.. so unless you prove me there is a significant difference between HLG-550 and a 1000w HPS The total Lumen output is about the same keeping in mind that the hps is 360 degrees and loosing light power off the reflection 

Thats just my 2 cents! LED for the win


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## CCCmints (Mar 14, 2018)

Viceman666 said:


> Just so I understand.. how is that possible that 1152 LED spread over a 2x2 area (or aprox for the hlg 550) have a lower spread than a single light point in a HPS light?
> 
> I just feel its the same debate over and over again but results are there.. hps you will get from 0.5 to 1 g/w and with quality LED (not talking about blurple here) you get 1 to 2 g/w..
> 
> ...


You're either completely blind or you're not even reading the posts on this thread before replying...No one, not even once, said 1x 1000w HPS could hang with 2x HLG-550s. Your statements are based on nothing. You just randomly come up with stuff like, "_..so 500-550w quantum should get you pretty close_". I've posted the data. Observe it, note the differences. You've got graphs for 1000w HPS in a 4x4 reflective area and the HLG-550 in a 4x4 reflective area, in this very thread. There is no debate. The HLG-550 has 30% less output over a 4x4 space than 1000w HPS, and nearly the same light uniformity. I've done the tests, you have not.

I've already stated I'm a proponent for LED. Are you reading my posts? I don't believe in HLG's claims that they've succeeded 1000w HPS with 50% less power draw. That's all.

I've literally proved it in this thread. The HLG-550 is inferior to 1000w HPS in terms of light output. That is a 100% fact, which you can verify yourself by purchasing a quantum sensor, 1000w setup, and conducting your own photometric uniformity test. Until you've done that, stop posting on this topic. No one needs the opinion of someone who just pulls random data/information out of their ass.


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## NGA (Mar 14, 2018)

I would love to save 50% on my bill but I've been reading for months on led and so on but your looking at $1500 plus on one led , that compares to a1k hps ,1k hps cheap $60 hps bulbs $ 35


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## NGA (Mar 14, 2018)

I would love to save 50% on my bill but I've been reading for months on led and so on but your looking at $1500 plus on one led , that compares to a1k hps ,1k hps cheap $60 hps bulbs $ 35


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## NGA (Mar 14, 2018)

I would love to save 50% on my bill but I've been reading for months on led and so on but your looking at $1500 plus on one led , that compares to a1k hps ,1k hps cheap $60 hps bulbs $ 35


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## Hotwired (Mar 14, 2018)

triple post FTW


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## Hotwired (Mar 14, 2018)

After reading so many of these LED threads all I'm getting is that watt for watt LED's are better. So the HLG 550 should easily beat a 600 hps but not a 1000.


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## GreenHighlander (Mar 14, 2018)

I always love it when someone with less grows then fingers on most peoples hand, comes around talking like an expert because they read this study and that study online lol 
Please do share your vast knowledge with us humble folk........
Cheers


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## cobber (Mar 15, 2018)

well what about running the lights with a 600w driver would that be doable is see a kit on growerslights.com that does such a thing but have not really found much info about it


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## cobber (Mar 15, 2018)

This kit will easily replace any 1000 Watt HID using only 620 Watts of power producing a massive 1450 PPF total output! To put this in perspective, a single ended 1000 watt produces around 1250 PPF total. The HLG-600H produces 16% more light than the SE1000 watt with 38% less power! The kit uses 4 high efficiency Quantum Boards (QB-28 driven by a HLG-600H-54B and comes pre-assembled and tested (recommended) or ready to assemble.


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## a mongo frog (Mar 15, 2018)

cobber said:


> well what about running the lights with a 600w driver would that be doable is see a kit on growerslights.com that does such a thing but have not really found much info about it


You should buy 1. If it does a gram per watt and no bulb changes ever its a steal.


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## dbkick (Mar 15, 2018)

cobber said:


> This kit will easily replace any 1000 Watt HID using only 620 Watts of power producing a massive 1450 PPF total output! To put this in perspective, a single ended 1000 watt produces around 1250 PPF total. The HLG-600H produces 16% more light than the SE1000 watt with 38% less power! The kit uses 4 high efficiency Quantum Boards (QB-28 driven by a HLG-600H-54B and comes pre-assembled and tested (recommended) or ready to assemble.


I just bought an hlg600, have yet to hang it. Curious, if the hlg 600 will beat a 1kw se by 16 percent why not just claim it has 6 percent on any de since a de has 10 percent on an se?


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## cobber (Mar 15, 2018)

well i wont be buying the kit as i already have boards but im debating between using the 480 vs 600 watt drivers basically i have a pretty packed grow space 8x8 and ive already got a production model hlg 550 running along with dual 1k hps bulbs on one hand it seems smart to get the 600w drivers over the 480 but on the other hand i dont wanna over do it with the light either as my goal is to save power


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## a mongo frog (Mar 15, 2018)

dbkick said:


> I just bought an hlg600, have yet to hang it. Curious, if the hlg 600 will beat a 1kw se by 16 percent why not just claim it has 6 percent on any de since a de has 10 percent on an se?


Im curious also. I bought 2 Monday morning.


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## cobber (Mar 15, 2018)

well hang it up dude ! ... i wonder how hot that thing gets my 550 honestly gets pretty dam hot i cant touch it for more then a sec at a time


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## cobber (Mar 15, 2018)

yeah that kit seems like its a great deal honestly i wish i had gone down that route but i was trying to save a bit of cash im sure id have been happy with a pair tho


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## a mongo frog (Mar 15, 2018)

cobber said:


> well hang it up dude ! ... i wonder how hot that thing gets my 550 honestly gets pretty dam hot i cant touch it for more then a sec at a time


Thats pretty good news actually. I was worried these boards ran cool. I was debating getting a co2 burner to help instead of bottled injection system.


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## cobber (Mar 15, 2018)

bottled injection system ? ..... its hot as shit on the heat sink but im sure it does not heat the room up like a hps bulb


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## cobber (Mar 15, 2018)

o wait lol im a little slow tonight i guess ....


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## NoWaistedSpace (Mar 18, 2018)

There has been already a few side by side done but lets be realistic.. in 10 yrs from now we will still have the same debate because its almost impossible to do 2 grow exactly the same way.. and then compare results.. so unless you prove me there is a significant difference between HLG-550 and a 1000w HPS The total Lumen output is about the same keeping in mind that the hps is 360 degrees and loosing light power off the reflection

I just ran an experiment with a pc of sanded, #400-#1000 grit, Polished, Black Emery Polish, 6"x36" Aluminum plate.
I laid it in the direct sun(2PM). The PAR meter said the Sun was at around 2100 PAR.
Next, I focused the meter at the coinciding angle for maximum reflection.
The meter read a little over 2000 PAR. That is almost 99% reflection.
Added a 54mm Glass Lens and measured and increased PAR to right at 2300 PAR
I have not done a "White" surface this way.

My conclusion:
With DIY, adding a little "elbow" grease to your Al reflectors and "Heat Sinks" will increase your PPFD output . Remember, Aluminum is a "soft" metal, and is easily scratched.


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## ShLUbY (Mar 18, 2018)

3 HLG's in a row. 1500 watts of LED, compared to 2000 watts of HPS... should be equal yield for 500 less watts. savings is savings


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## cobber (Mar 18, 2018)

yeah i dont have 1500 watts over the 4x8 so it is a bit different but yeah i have more area and less watts for sure, i ended up going with 4 240 driver's cause i could not get the same kinda deal as i would with the 480w one and didnt really think its the best idea to go with the 600w time will tell im thinking that i can just add more boards if the need be but id imagine i wont do half bad


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> All of those reasons are why HLG has satisfied customers. LED truly does bring so many amazing things to the table. However, there is no excuse to base your entire marketing strategy off of a blatant lie. The HLG-550 is not powerful enough to replace 1000w HPS. HLG knows this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's just my opinion but it seems as though you've never used the hlg light yet you're bashing it as if it's failed you. I've seen countless journals that prove the 3000k spectrum excels in veg and flower. If it's not your cup of tea that's cool but what's not cool is you coming on here trying to slander a respected company and their products because you don't prefer or can't afford them. You need to stop because I doubt you've ever even seen one in person.


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> It's just my opinion but it seems as though you've never used the hlg light yet you're bashing it as if it's failed you. I've seen countless journals that prove the 3000k spectrum excels in veg and flower. If it's not your cup of tea that's cool but what's not cool is you coming on here trying to slander a respected company and their products because you don't prefer or can't afford them. You need to stop because I doubt you've ever even seen one in person.


I don't own an HLG-550 and anyone who did their research wouldn't own one either. Facts are facts. I've posted a visual representation of the product's performance, using data THEY PROVIDE, and the guys that already fell for the marketing ploy are upset that they don't actually have a proper 1000w replacement. I'm sorry you purchased an overpriced item that china has already copied and is now selling for a fraction of HLG's price.

What's not cool is defending an inferior product solely because you've already purchased it. Do you see the graphs? Do you see the issues within those graphs? Do you see the HLG-550 has the same uniformity issues yet still produces 30% less light output? What is so hard to understand for you? Do you just not believe the data I collected for HPS is real? Is the visual representation using data HLG provides on their product page not sufficient for you? I'm trying to walk you through it as best I can.


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> I don't own an HLG-550 and anyone who did their research wouldn't own one either. Facts are facts. I've posted a visual representation of the product's performance, using data THEY PROVIDE, and the guys that already fell for the marketing ploy are upset that they don't actually have a proper 1000w replacement. I'm sorry you purchased an overpriced item that china has already copied and is now selling for a fraction of HLG's price.
> 
> What's not cool is defending an inferior product solely because you've already purchased it. Do you see the graphs? Do you see the issues within those graphs? Do you see the HLG-550 has the same uniformity issues yet still produces 30% less light output? What is so hard to understand for you? Do you just not believe the data I collected for HPS is real? Is the visual representation using data HLG provides on their product page not sufficient for you? I'm trying to walk you through it as best I can.


Seems like you're just bitter because you built an outdated light. Who cares about your fake data all I care about are results, which you've failed to provide. Comparisons = proof until then you're just the guy who's hating on hlg for no reason. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm happy belonging to the " cult " as you stated.
Edit: I guess that's why you're on multiple threads slandering their light too. Bitter


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> Seems like you're just bitter because you built an outdated light. Who cares about your fake data all I care about are results, which you've failed to provide. Comparisons = proof until then you're just the guy who's hating on hlg for no reason. Don't feel sorry for me, I'm happy belonging to the " cult " as you stated.
> Edit: I guess that's why you're on multiple threads slandering their light too. Bitter


I love how the data is so scary to you HLG cultists that all you can do is claim its fake. 30% less light output, same uniformity issues; you have a shit light. Go do the tests yourself and cry yourself to sleep over the realization that all of this data is in fact very, very real. 

Seems like you're bitter because you made a stupid purchase lOl.


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Oh wait, I forgot....HLG cultist don't believe in science. They just replace there lights and change 40 other variables then yield a little bit less with their quantum boards and say, "Well, its good enough I suppose. 50% less power, woooooooo!"


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> I love how the data is so scary to you HLG cultists that all you can do is claim its fake. 30% less light output, same uniformity issues; you have a shit light. Go do the tests yourself and cry yourself to sleep over the realization that all of this data is in fact very, very real.
> 
> Seems like you're bitter because you made a stupid purchase lOl.


I'm 


CCCmints said:


> I love how the data is so scary to you HLG cultists that all you can do is claim its fake. 30% less light output, same uniformity issues; you have a shit light. Go do the tests yourself and cry yourself to sleep over the realization that all of this data is in fact very, very real.
> 
> Seems like you're bitter because you made a stupid purchase lOl.


Are you trolling? I just told you I'm happy being in the "cult" because they've proven themselves. You on the other hand are posting your own data and drawing your own conclusions. You can't even provide a side by side grow. I did do my research and narrowed it down between hlg and timber. I purchased the 550, can't be mad because it's still in the box and totally returnable but it's not going anywhere. That light is a BEAST!!


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Oh wait, I forgot....HLG cultist don't believe in science. They just replace there lights and change 40 other variables then yield a little bit less with their quantum boards and say, "Well, its good enough I suppose. 50% less power, woooooooo!"


Name 10 out of the 40.... I'll wait


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## frigginwizard (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> What's not cool is defending an inferior product solely because you've already purchased it.


pot calling the kettle black here mr COB fixture. You should just slink back into the anonymity of the internet with a new account you didn't use to show us all how ignorant you are.


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> I'm
> 
> Are you trolling? I just told you I'm happy being in the "cult" because they've proven themselves. You on the other hand are posting your own data and drawing your own conclusions. You can't even provide a side by side grow. I did do my research and narrowed it down between hlg and timber. I purchased the 550, can't be mad because it's still in the box and totally returnable but it's not going anywhere. That light is a BEAST!!


You haven't even fucking turned it on yet oh my god LOL


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Do yourself a favor Lola, grab an SQ-500, a fresh 1k HPS bulb, make a photometric uniformity mat, and see for yourself the difference. Its really not that difficult. I'm honestly surprised you guys are having so much difficulty understanding this. You could even take your HLG-550 out of the box, turn it on, and test it just like you did the HPS bulb! THEN, you could create visual representations of the data you collect, compare them against each other, and note the differences. This will give you an understanding of how the lights perform.

But no, you'd rather just believe in a marketing ploy while the product in question sits in its box. Brilliant.


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> You haven't even fucking turned it on yet oh my god LOL


Did I not state the light just arrived? I wouldn't make a damn near thousand dollar purchase without researching the product. I'm just wondering why you're on multiple threads slandering a product you don't even own.


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## a mongo frog (Mar 22, 2018)

I really hope these QB lights really are not shitty. That would be devastating. I bought 2 of those hlg 600 qb and will be replacing 2 1k hps lamps and replacing the 3rd 1k hps lamp with this 750 watt cob light i did but never used 1.5 years ago. So basically I'm praying those hlg 600's will relace those 2 1k hps, and the 750 cob replace the last 1k hps slut. Now I'm fucking scared again.


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## Hotwired (Mar 22, 2018)

CCC, they don't care. Don't you see this? Some of these LED users are exactly like Trump supporters. Every "bad" news is "fake news" and their lights can do nothing wrong. These lights can shoot dead photons in the middle of a Manhattan street and be cheered on to do it again! They can paint orange color all over their faces and still call it white light! They can pay a million dollars for a "trumped" up light and say it works better the real sun because the real sun is fake!

Why don't we just say what the 550 really compares to and stop this silliness? Better than a 600 watt hps but really not close to 1000. Would that solve it?


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> Did I not state the light just arrived? *I wouldn't make a damn near thousand dollar purchase without researching the product*. I'm just wondering why you're on multiple threads slandering a product you don't even own.


That is precisely what you did. But its OK, now you've got your BEAST light. So, now its time to test this BEAST, right? I mean, you don't believe the data HLG provides (but you believe their claim of succeeding 1000w HPS with 50% less power), you don't believe the data I provide for 1k HPS, so I guess you have to do it yourself now...Right? Surely before you buy another beast. Don't feel bad when your data is nearly identical to everything I've posted. Buyer's remorse is a bitch.

As for your question regarding why I'm speaking on this topic. I have 0 respect for any company which bases their entire operation on blatant lies. I'm sharing factual information so that people looking to invest in a lighting system to replace their 1k HPS don't end up with a product which doesn't live up to its claims. HLG knows the HLG-550 is in no way shape or form a viable replacement for 1k HPS. You could tag their whole team and they won't chime in on this discussion, I assure you of that.


Hotwired said:


> CCC, they don't care. Don't you see this? Some of these LED users are exactly like Trump supporters. Every "bad" news is "fake news" and their lights can do nothing wrong. These lights can shoot dead photons in the middle of a Manhattan street and be cheered on to do it again! They can paint orange color all over their faces and still call it white light! They can pay a million dollars for a "trumped" up light and say it works better the real sun because the real sun is fake!
> 
> Why don't we just say what the 550 really compares to and stop this silliness? Better than a 600 watt hps but really not close to 1000. Would that solve it?


The HLG-550 would perform better than a 600w HPS, I agree. There's just less money in a "600 watt HID replacement!". The reality is, the type of marketing strategy HLG chose is one with an expiration date. You can't live off a lie forever. More people like me will surface and bring to light the truth on this matter.


----------



## Budzbuddha (Mar 22, 2018)

Point on the board where the Quantum hurt you .....


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## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

Hotwired said:


> CCC, they don't care. Don't you see this? Some of these LED users are exactly like Trump supporters. Every "bad" news is "fake news" and their lights can do nothing wrong. These lights can shoot dead photons in the middle of a Manhattan street and be cheered on to do it again! They can paint orange color all over their faces and still call it white light! They can pay a million dollars for a "trumped" up light and say it works better the real sun because the real sun is fake!
> 
> Why don't we just say what the 550 really compares to and stop this silliness? Better than a 600 watt hps but really not close to 1000. Would that solve it?


I agree man.
IMHO a lot of the LED consumers suck.
Its ludicrous, that the manufacturers are getting paid, for people to build diy lights, for the lights to be any good.
LED consumers should be saying how shit their lights are, that they make better diy, and wont buy anymore LED's until the manufacturer ups the game.
Led's would be so far ahead by now, if products got thrown back at their faces. How many people want to DIY?
The decent plug and plays too, holy [email protected]%#&$€ck. Well over a grand, just for one unit.
I reckon i could get a full 1kw Gavita kit, and great ballast for way less. Let alone the cheaper route, you could kit out a whole room.
LED consumers make better kits, than the manufacturer. It just seems silly to me.
Wish i was an LED manufacturer. Fuck id be spinning all sorts of shit, and getting away with it.


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> That is precisely what you did. But its OK, now you've got your BEAST light. So, now its time to test this BEAST, right? I mean, you don't believe the data HLG provides (but you believe their claim of succeeding 1000w HPS with 50% less power), you don't believe the data I provide for 1k HPS, so I guess you have to do it yourself now...Right? Surely before you buy another beast. Don't feel bad when your data is nearly identical to everything I've posted. Buyer's remorse is a bitch.
> 
> As for your question regarding why I'm speaking on this topic. I have 0 respect for any company which bases their entire operation on blatant lies. I'm sharing factual information so that people looking to invest in a lighting system to replace their 1k HPS don't end up with a product which doesn't live up to its claims. HLG knows the HLG-550 is in no way shape or form a viable replacement for 1k HPS. You could tag their whole team and they won't chime in on this discussion, I assure you of that.
> The HLG-550 would perform better than a 600w HPS, I agree. There's just less money in a "600 watt HID replacement!". The reality is, the type of marketing strategy HLG chose is one with an expiration date. You can't live off a lie forever. More people like me will surface and bring to light the truth on this matter.


No buyers remorse because I'm aware of what this light can do. You don't have to try soooooo hard to convince others what they should invest in because it's not your money. As soon as my larger tent arrives I'll be officially joining "the cult " lol.


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## a mongo frog (Mar 22, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> I agree man.
> IMHO a lot of the LED consumers suck.
> Its ludicrous, that the manufacturers are getting paid, for people to build diy lights, for the lights to be any good.
> LED consumers should be saying how shit their lights are, that they make better diy, and wont buy anymore LED's until the manufacturer ups the game.
> ...


Whats your yields like with your 1k hps?


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> No buyers remorse because I'm aware of what this light can do. You don't have to try soooooo hard to convince others what they should invest in because it's not your money. As soon as my larger tent arrives I'll be officially joining "the cult " lol.  View attachment 4110146


You're gonna want a 2'x2' tent to get any use out of that light :/


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## a mongo frog (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> You're gonna want a 2'x2' tent to get any use out of that light :/


Please be joking? Is that the 550 he showed?


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> Please be joking? Is that the 550 he showed?


Yep.


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## a mongo frog (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Yep.


Im fucked. Regardless of what people yield hps or others, do you think the hlg 600 qb can yield 1 gram per watt?


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> Im fucked. Regardless of what people yield hps or others, do you think the hlg 600 qb can yield 1 gram per watt?


I think it could yield about a pound each day.


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> Im fucked. Regardless of what people yield hps or others, do you think the hlg 600 qb can yield 1 gram per watt?


First of all, I'm a woman and the light is big it's just the angle of my camera making it appear smaller.


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> First of all, I'm a woman and the light is big it's just the angle of my camera making it appear smaller.


First of all, no one asked your gender. Second of all, how are you aware of what that little light can do if you refuse to properly test it?


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## a mongo frog (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> First of all, I'm a woman


I respect that!! Not sure why yor yelling at me though. Im just researching


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> First of all, no one asked your gender. Second of all, how are you aware of what that little light can do if you refuse to properly test it?


He said is that the 550 ( he) showed, so I clarified that I'm not a he, I don't see the problem with that. Test it for what ? You haven't tested it yourself. 



 Could have been the way I took the image but I'm sure you already know it's nothing little about this light. You're rude and bitter have a nice day.


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> I respect that!! Not sure why yor yelling at me though. Im just researching


I didn't know I could yell through a text but ok lol. It's just rough on chicks around these parts so I try and hold my own when I'm on. I didn't mean to yell ( didn't use exclamation marks or anything) but I posted the light being opened because I didn't take the best image .


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## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> Whats your yields like with your 1k hps?


I dont have a 1kw.
I have a 600hps on a dimmer. I know i could get a pound, if i could be bothered to do all the training etc. Im a lazy gardener, in that sense. But i love the Christmas tree look.
I grow 6 regulars. From seed. 4-6 weeks i flip. Usually just over 4 weeks. 1 week into the flip, ive sexed them. 3-4 fill my 4x4. I dont generally top em. I yield 2.5 - 3 ounces, of colas per plant. With fuck all popcorn. I use a $30 growlush bulb. Talk about cheap.
I might have to change bulbs twice a year, but it still costs bugger all.
Im not discrediting LED's. The manufacturers just, really need to up their game.
Even the penetration too. 
You guys really think a single 100watt cob could shine as far, as a single 600w bulb? We've all used a torch before.
I could buy a 1kw LED, with 10 Cobs on em. They're still not gonna penetrate any further than a single 100w Cob.
LED's penetration, and spread, is a big, big issue.


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## ANC (Mar 22, 2018)

I still don't think it is realistic to think a 500W LED fixture is going to outperform 1000W of HPS by any metric you choose.
Anyone who thinks it is a fair comparison is a master red herring angler.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

ANC said:


> I still don't think it is realistic to think a 500W LED fixture is going to outperform 1000W of HPS by any metric you choose.
> Anyone who thinks it is a fair comparison is a master red herring angler.


Well said ANC
Touche


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> He said is that the 550 ( he) showed, so I clarified that I'm not a he, I don't see the problem with that. Test it for what ? You haven't tested it yourself.
> 
> 
> 
> Could have been the way I took the image but I'm sure you already know it's nothing little about this light. You're rude and bitter have a nice day.


I don't have to test the HLG-550, because I believe the data they provide. You don't, so you need to test it. Understand? Or do you believe the data, yet still fail to see the problem here? lOl.

That video is funny. Dude throws his cheapy Hydrofarm quantum sensor under one point of the light and says "Just under 650 PPFD in the center of the footprint".

Pure comedy.


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> I don't have to test the HLG-550, because I believe the data they provide. You don't, so you need to test it. Understand? Or do you believe the data, yet still fail to see the problem here? lOl.
> 
> That video is funny. Dude throws his cheapy Hydrofarm quantum sensor under one point of the light and says "Just under 650 PPFD in the center of the footprint".
> 
> Pure comedy.


Jealousy & envy will get you nowhere. Have nice day .


----------



## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> Jealousy & envy will get you nowhere. Have nice day .


You don't think its funny the dude thinks he just calculated the PPFD of the HLG-550 by taking a single measurement of the light with a $90 quantum sensor?

I personally think its hilarious. Since you linked the video, it sort of shows where you stand in this game lol.


----------



## thumper60 (Mar 22, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> I really hope these QB lights really are not shitty. That would be devastating. I bought 2 of those hlg 600 qb and will be replacing 2 1k hps lamps and replacing the 3rd 1k hps lamp with this 750 watt cob light i did but never used 1.5 years ago. So basically I'm praying those hlg 600's will relace those 2 1k hps, and the 750 cob replace the last 1k hps slut. Now I'm fucking scared again.


I hear ya on that iam sitting on the cliff on 2 of them I was ready to jump till I saw this iam talking the6


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> You don't think its funny the dude thinks he just calculated the PPFD of the HLG-550 by taking a single measurement of the light with a $90 quantum sensor?
> 
> I personally think its hilarious. Since you linked the video, it sort of shows where you stand in this game lol.


That was so he could see the size of the light because my camera angle wasn't that good. I stated that's why I posted the vid


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## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> I don't have to test the HLG-550, because I believe the data they provide. You don't, so you need to test it. Understand? Or do you believe the data, yet still fail to see the problem here? lOl.


Holy Fuuuuuck though.
$1000 for a unit that costs almost as much to run as a 600???? 
You get good quality hoods, and ballasts, hps costs you fuck all in the long run. Then 5-10 grows down the line, the hid user's only replaced 5-10 bulbs. The LED user is probably buying a new light. Electricity, still costed the same, plus they're short a light. Its big $$$$, for little in return.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

Even the spectrum too.
If you were growing big pumpkins in your space, youd choose hps, all day.
Fruits and vegetables need wayyyy more red spectrum, than an LED shines.
Your pumpkins would be much smaller. Probably less of them too.
Hps puts on size and weight.
Its so damn good to be able to hit em with nearly all red.
But an LED, for all red, unless its diy'd to the max, you have to switch off half the light. Thats a huge loss as well. Less watts overall.


----------



## a mongo frog (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> It's just rough on chicks around these parts





thumper60 said:


> I hear ya on that iam sitting on the cliff on 2 of them I was ready to jump till I saw this iam talking the6


I also have this I'm going to test out. Supposed to be a beast, but I've held off. So I'm going to try 2 hlg 600's and this pictured 750 watt cob shitter in a 8x12 shed that has/had 3 1k watts hps. Plants in veg now.waiting on the hlg 600's to arrive.


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## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

Lola Grows said:


> That was so he could see the size of the light because my camera angle wasn't that good. I stated that's why I posted the vid


Thanks for the entertainment. Enjoy your new light.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

Sorry guys, 
I watched the review. 
Imho, its not a fair review. The plants were seedlings.
I dont understand his remark about green light either.
Isn't most green light, not absorbable by plants, hence why most plants appear green???
Can sometime please tell me why the green light, is as good as the others?
Why wouldn't it be better to have more of the other?


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## Lola Grows (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Thanks for the entertainment. Enjoy your new light.


Enjoy your last year cobs.


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## Budzbuddha (Mar 22, 2018)

Quantums have zero problem hitting gram per watt issue.

Done last year :
3 panel QB 304 boards
S5 bin ( OG ) @robincnn ( first gen )
HLG 320h c2800
3500k
320w dimmable
9 weeks

Temps : 77° all day
Girl Scout Glue ( 2 plants )

   

I'm not going to break down the math because it means really nothing to me in the long run , I did do it to see what I may be doing right or wrong.

Just over 300 grams ... 5 jars and a bud or two extra ( 60ish grams per jar )
1.2 g/w

I did HID before , too much heat , airy fucking buds , extra cooling requirements .....
High power bills , buying fading fucking bulbs , swapping bulbs per grow stage , etc.
But if you like pizza ovens , blast furnaces so be it.

Quantums are basically large form factor COBS with BETTER spread , efficiency , color and less heat. It has better light penetration at the fringe areas of tent ( corners ) and does NOT have hot spots. I get denser / resin heavy nugs more than I ever got from HID lamps . By using these Quantums I just eliminated the HEAT ISSUE with plant problems. Hanging on spreadsheets , graphs and backyard tests really mean nothing .... To the regular personal grower. There is a lot of unnecessary dick swinging.
Also anyone stating that I will HAVE to replace in a year is full of shit. I do perpetual grows , they are running daily . Even the very first rig I built ... 18/6 year round ... No decay , no burnout , I keep power manageable at 60-70% for higher efficiency levels. Mid power levels boost the Quantums LM/Watt.


At the end of the day , whichever light gives you the plants you seek , should be the ones to keep.

Sometimes being cheap will get expensive - Confucius


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## jarvild (Mar 22, 2018)

A 600 HPS in a 4x4 should get you a gram a watt easily. Personal best was about 1.6 gpw. 
You can buy a whole 1,000 watt setup for $.30 a watt, compared to LED @ around $3 a watt.
I'm sure I'm not alone as to being burned by the outlandish claims made by some of these companies in the past. I have a couple sitting around that are 4 years or less old with drivers shot or chips in need of replacing.

I'm not against LED's , they will be the lights of the future.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

Budzbuddha said:


> Quantums have zero problem hitting gram per watt issue.
> 
> Done last year :
> 3 panel QB 304 boards
> ...


I think its about controlling the environment though.
Of course your buds are gonna get airy, if its too hot.
Put a bulb in a tube, with a good reflector, and a big extraction fan, and itll be the same temps up the top, as your room.
I know mine is. I only use a 6 inch fan too. Let alone an 8 or 12.
In a big room you can hook them up like that, to each other consecutively. 
If your extraction is good enough, you can replace your air, and vent all the heat from the lights at the same time. Its a win, win.
If it was a room full of quantums though, they're naked. Excess light, or energy becomes heat. You're still gonna have to be extracting the heat from the lights. Plus cooling, and extracting.
Its not efficient.


----------



## Kushash (Mar 22, 2018)

Gram per watt conversations are entertaining as are 80% of the posts on RIU I suppose.
If a conversation was started about what % of peoples seeds germinate and they all said 90%, there would be a shit load of liars in the bunch and if the conversation went to gram per watt I bet the load of shit would be bigger regardless of lighting lol.


----------



## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

jarvild said:


> A 600 HPS in a 4x4 should get you a gram a watt easily. Personal best was about 1.6 gpw.
> You can buy a whole 1,000 watt setup for $.30 a watt, compared to LED @ around $3 a watt.
> I'm sure I'm not alone as to being burned by the outlandish claims made by some of these companies in the past. I have a couple sitting around that are 4 years or less old with drivers shot or chips in need of replacing.
> 
> I'm not against LED's , they will be the lights of the future.


I very much agree. Exactly my point.


----------



## Budzbuddha (Mar 22, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> I think its about controlling the environment though.
> Of course your buds are gonna get airy, if its too hot.
> Put a bulb in a tube, with a good reflector, and a big extraction fan, and itll be the same temps up the top, as your room.
> I know mine is. I only use a 6 inch fan too. Let alone an 8 or 12.
> ...


That's not true ... Here is a bedroom grow ... Perfectly normal ROOM temps .
7 panels total PLUS 2 cobs 
A simple negative pressure setup is all that's needed .
No buying unnecessary shit involved. 6" and 8" inline that's it.


----------



## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

Budzbuddha said:


> That's not true ... Here is a bedroom grow ... Perfectly normal ROOM temps .
> 7 panels total PLUS 2 cobs
> A simple negative pressure setup is all that's needed .
> No buying unnecessary shit involved. 6" and 8" inline that's it.
> ...


Maybe. Though you're still missing the point. I have a 4x4. I dont need any more extracton than you do.
What would you be doing to efficiently contol your heat in a 100kw room???
There is loads of heat, regardless. You still have to extract it.
Hps are so versatile too. Middle of winter, a naked bulb would effectively heat your space during the day.
LED's, just are what they, are. You cant tweak them to suit every enviroment.


----------



## CCCmints (Mar 22, 2018)

jarvild said:


> A 600 HPS in a 4x4 should get you a gram a watt easily. Personal best was about 1.6 gpw.
> You can buy a whole 1,000 watt setup for $.30 a watt, compared to LED @ around $3 a watt.
> I'm sure I'm not alone as to being burned by the outlandish claims made by some of these companies in the past. I have a couple sitting around that are 4 years or less old with drivers shot or chips in need of replacing.
> 
> I'm not against LED's , they will be the lights of the future.


Its a bit of a stretch to say LED is $3/watt, more like $2. Regardless, you need to take into account that you are getting around 25% more light output per watt with LED. It also matters how many lights you run in your space. The more lights you run, the more savings you accrue with LED (energy savings, bulb replacement, etc.). Another thing is heat. In cold climates, LED's lower heat emission isn't a good thing. In hotter climates, its invaluable. 

So if you live somewhere cold and are only interested in a small op, LED might not make sense for you. The bigger the op gets, the more attractive LED becomes. I guess it really boils down to your personal situation.


----------



## Tim1987 (Mar 22, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Its a bit of a stretch to say LED is $3/watt, more like $2. Regardless, you need to take into account that you are getting around 25% more light output per watt with LED. It also matters how many lights you run in your space. The more lights you run, the more savings you accrue with LED (energy savings, bulb replacement, etc.). Another thing is heat. In cold climates, LED's lower heat emission isn't a good thing. In hotter climates, its invaluable.
> 
> So if you live somewhere cold and are only interested in a small op, LED might not make sense for you. The bigger the op gets, the more attractive LED becomes. I guess it really boils down to your personal situation.


I agree.
But if the LED is an average of 25% more efficient. Shouldnt it only be 25% more expensive, to straight up purchase?
Let alone having to put the effort into DIY.
It doesn't save anything, in the long run. Not if you buy good quality hid in the first place.
Even cheap hid, are really quite reliable.
They all have an expected standard.
But the LED quality variation, is totally bipolar. There's a massive amount of brands too. They all make the same claims as well.
Finding a gem, is a very hard thing to do.


----------



## jarvild (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Its a bit of a stretch to say LED is $3/watt, more like $2. Regardless, you need to take into account that you are getting around 25% more light output per watt with LED. It also matters how many lights you run in your space. The more lights you run, the more savings you accrue with LED (energy savings, bulb replacement, etc.). Another thing is heat. In cold climates, LED's lower heat emission isn't a good thing. In hotter climates, its invaluable.
> 
> So if you live somewhere cold and are only interested in a small op, LED might not make sense for you. The bigger the op gets, the more attractive LED becomes. I guess it really boils down to your personal situation.


 So we go from a 300% to a 200% increase in initial upfront cost per watt.
Let me ask you this. Let's say I have a 4x4 area and run 600 watts of HID's in that space and get almost 2 lbs from it. If led's as you say puts out 25% more light than a hid equivalent then I would need 450 watts of leds to match. Can that 450 Watts of LEDs pull that from that same area. From my experience, NO.
As I said, I'm not against LED for grow lighting. Just the claims that the people make about their LEDs.


----------



## ANC (Mar 23, 2018)

It is far closer to a dollar a Watt.
The 100W strips are $50, so 50c/W for the LEDs, then you need to decide how you want to swing your drivers.
You could cheap out and use more commonly sold ones like the HLG240 or even cheaper if you are in 220V country like me, use an ELG driver.
It does not need to cost brasilions. It would take me a year of constant growing to make up the extra cost of using 4 strips instead of 3 on the 320W driver, in electricity cost. (all for only gaining 2000 lumens).


----------



## jarvild (Mar 23, 2018)

ANC said:


> It is far closer to a dollar a Watt.
> The 100W strips are $50, so 50c/W for the LEDs, then you need to decide how you want to swing your drivers.
> You could cheap out and use more commonly sold ones like the HLG240 or even cheaper if you are in 220V country like me, use an ELG driver.
> It does not need to cost brasilions. It would take me a year of constant growing to make up the extra cost of using 4 strips instead of 3 on the 320W driver, in electricity cost. (all for only gaining 2000 lumens).


 What, your not getting 100 watts from those strips unless your running 2+ amps from your drivers. Recommended is 1.12 a for the best eff. so that would put you about 54 watts out from the light. 
Sound like more LED salesman crap. 
Our units contain 100 watt cree cobs but we only run them at 50 watts for best eff, but hey , they are 100 watt cobs.


----------



## ANC (Mar 23, 2018)

A 320W driver can put out 6.7A = 3 x 2.23333A @ 48V, That is 102W last time I checked.
Test current is 2.24A

@jarvild


----------



## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> I agree.
> But if the LED is an average of 25% more efficient. Shouldnt it only be 25% more expensive, to straight up purchase?
> Let alone having to put the effort into DIY.
> It doesn't save anything, in the long run. Not if you buy good quality hid in the first place.
> ...


With a proper LED fixture, you have way better uniformity than HPS provides, which increases yield and gives you a more manageable canopy. With proper uniformity, you can place your LED closer (due to the absence of large PAR spikes), providing tighter internode spacing. You don't need to switch to a different light when transferring out of the veg phase into flower. But like I said, it boils down to your personal situation. For an example, lets consider converting a 5k HPS room to LED, and estimate the savings over the course of 1 year. 

5k - 25% = 3750 (equivalent LED wattage)
12/12 cycle for 1 year = 4380 hours
0.12 = average kWh rate in the US
($60*5)*(2) = $600 (replace HPS bulbs twice per year) *_I'm still burning a 1K HPS bulb to measure light degradation. Its very likely you'd want to change your bulbs 3x per year to get the most out of your lighting system._

Cost to run HPS for 1 year: $3,229.80
Cost to run LED for 1 year: $1,972.00
Monthly savings = $104.81

As ANC mentioned, DIY is typically >$1/watt. A high quality HPS setup is around $0.4/watt. If you live in a hotter climate, you'd want to factor in savings from lesser cooling requirements.

(LED) Initial investment: $3,750
(HPS) Initial investment: $2,000
Difference = $1,750

Investing in LED is moreso about improving the quality of your lighting system rather than just simply saving money. But regardless, if you plan to grow for more than a year, LED is the best option cost wise. 



jarvild said:


> So we go from a 300% to a 200% increase in initial upfront cost per watt.
> Let me ask you this. Let's say I have a 4x4 area and run 600 watts of HID's in that space and get almost 2 lbs from it. If led's as you say puts out 25% more light than a hid equivalent then I would need 450 watts of leds to match. Can that 450 Watts of LEDs pull that from that same area. From my experience, NO.
> As I said, I'm not against LED for grow lighting. Just the claims that the people make about their LEDs.


Well if you're growing with LED fixtures which have the same uniformity issues as HPS and HLG-550, then you're missing out on the capabilities of LED. Unfortunately, there isn't really a suitable retail option at this time, so DIY is where its at.


----------



## ANC (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> so DIY is where its at


DIY is always where it's at.


----------



## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> With a proper LED fixture, you have way better uniformity than HPS provides, which increases yield and gives you a more manageable canopy. With proper uniformity, you can place your LED closer (due to the absence of large PAR spikes), providing tighter internode spacing. You don't need to switch to a different light when transferring out of the veg phase into flower. But like I said, it boils down to your personal situation. For an example, lets consider converting a 5k HPS room to LED, and estimate the savings over the course of 1 year.
> 
> 5k - 25% = 3750 (equivalent LED wattage)
> 12/12 cycle for 1 year = 4380 hours
> ...


 Uniformity??? You mean SCROG
HID uniformity doesnt matter at all, because of penetration.
You could-
Stake it, LST, scrog, use tomato cages, sea of green, verticle grow, perpetually flower in one room, and still get good yield.
LED just cant meet the same overall standard, and versatility HID gives its users.
Im sorry.
I'll be one of the first buyers, the day they can. 
But for now, unfortunately HID is king.

I do have to disagree about quality of light too.
Try growing some pumpkins with an LED.
Versatility, again. You can grow any plant with hps. I veg with hps. Its no biggy at all.

On a side note. 
It cost me $200 for a bulb, ballast and Xxtra cooltube.
I still havnt been fucked to replace after a couple years. They reliably work.
Its cheap shit too.
What would $200 of LED get you??? No DIY either.
See my point?


----------



## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> Uniformity??? You mean SCROG
> HID uniformity doesnt matter at all, because of penetration.
> You could-
> Stake it, LST, scrog, use tomato cages, sea of green, verticle grow, perpetually flower in one room, and still get good yield.
> ...


No, I don't mean SCROG. I mean light uniformity. I don't even know how to respond to, "HID uniformity doesn't matter at all, because of penetration" because its honestly a ludicrous statement. HID doesn't give you the ability to train your plants, it just makes it harder to manage your canopy due to the lack of uniformity. Not to mention you've got massive PAR spikes which disallow you from placing the light closer to your canopy. HID has been king for a long time, but that's coming to an end very soon. I've already designed and built a fixture which crushes HPS. Fixtures like mine will come to market in the near future at a reasonable price. 

Not replacing your HPS bulb for 2 years is insane. Even manufacture recommendations suggest you need to change more often than that...If you are only willing to spend $200 on your lighting system, don't expect top-notch quality. You aren't growing top-shelf cannabis with a 2 year old HPS bulb in a cooltube. 

I don't see your point.


----------



## jarvild (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> With a proper LED fixture, you have way better uniformity than HPS provides, which increases yield and gives you a more manageable canopy. With proper uniformity, you can place your LED closer (due to the absence of large PAR spikes), providing tighter internode spacing. You don't need to switch to a different light when transferring out of the veg phase into flower. But like I said, it boils down to your personal situation. For an example, lets consider converting a 5k HPS room to LED, and estimate the savings over the course of 1 year.
> 
> 5k - 25% = 3750 (equivalent LED wattage)
> 12/12 cycle for 1 year = 4380 hours
> ...


 I Agree, but all you have to look at is the revolving cycle of new products or form factors that come and go. Cob's where the greatest then quantum Boards now Strips.


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

jarvild said:


> I Agree, but all you have to look at is the revolving cycle of new products or form factors that come and go. Cob's where the greatest then quantum Boards now Strips.


Yeah, the technology is going to keep evolving. What you have to consider when foreseeing the evolution of these technologies is the amount of resources being allocated to the development of them.


> The global chip-on-board (COB) LED market will rise at a compound annual growth rate (CAGR) of 35.51% during 2016-2020





> The report 'Global Chip on Board LED Market 2016-2020' segments the market into the applications of general lighting, automotive lighting, and backlighting.





> The general lighting segment was the highest revenue-generating segment during 2015 and its revenue-generating capacity is expected to rise further due to increased utilization of the LEDs for room, ceiling and outdoor lighting applications.





> Demand for CoB LEDs, coupled with the presence of many prominent CoB LED makers in APAC, will lead to substantial growth of this market in APAC during the forecast period.


*_http://www.semiconductor-today.com/news_items/2016/mar/technavio_030316.shtml
_
Big time players are dumping money into COB. This will result in rapid improvements over the next few years. I don't think we'll be seeing any quantum boards or Samsung strips lighting our homes in the future.

More resources = quicker development

So when trying to foresee what will replace HPS, consider the resources allocated to the development of the technologies working towards taking the throne.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> No, I don't mean SCROG. I mean light uniformity. I don't even know how to respond to, "HID uniformity doesn't matter at all, because of penetration" because its honestly a ludicrous statement. HID doesn't give you the ability to train your plants, it just makes it harder to manage your canopy due to the lack of uniformity. Not to mention you've got massive PAR spikes which disallow you from placing the light closer to your canopy. HID has been king for a long time, but that's coming to an end very soon. I've already designed and built a fixture which crushes HPS. Fixtures like mine will come to market in the near future at a reasonable price.
> 
> Not replacing your HPS bulb for 2 years is insane. Even manufacture recommendations suggest you need to change more often than that...If you are only willing to spend $200 on your lighting system, don't expect top-notch quality. You aren't growing top-shelf cannabis with a 2 year old HPS bulb in a cooltube.
> 
> I don't see your point.


You misunderstood. As if i dont change my bulbs.
Reflectors are a huge factor with HID. Bigger the reflector, smaller the space. Smaller reflectors are for large grows, with lots of lights. So you can concentrate the light in an area. You get better PAR, and more even spread. Just takes a bit of math, to work it out to your room.
In a tent, bigger the reflector, the better. Where's the light gonna go? Its the spread you want.
In a big room, spread is a waste. For the reasons you stated.

Used to be that a tool's quality, was judged, on its longevity, versatility, how easy it is to use, and effectiveness at the task at hand.
A grow light is a tool just like any other. Where does the average LED stand?
Average LED's are shithouse. To say they're not is a flat out lie.

I still suggest growing some big pumpkins too, or any fruit or vegetable for that matter.
You MIGHT get away with tomatoes and cucumbers. Any fruits bigger than that, its all down hill.
You'd be able to grow great salad greens though


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## jarvild (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Yeah, the technology is going to keep evolving. What you have to consider when foreseeing the evolution of these technologies is the amount of resources being allocated to the development of them.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I'm still waiting to here on the new graphate based chip that they were raving about a couple of years ago.


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> You misunderstood. As if i dont change my bulbs.
> Reflectors are a huge factor with HID. Bigger the reflector, smaller the space. Smaller reflectors are for large grows, with lots of lights. So you can concentrate the light in an area. You get better PAR, and more even spread. Just takes a bit of math, to work it out to your room.
> In a tent, bigger the reflector, the better. Where's the light gonna go? Its the spread you want.
> In a big room, spread is a waste. For the reasons you stated.
> ...


No, you literally said you can't be fucked to change your bulbs after a couple years. I think you're missing my point. Properly done DIY LED already trumps HPS. I agree that the current market has very little to offer aside from outlandish claims. I don't know why you keep suggesting to grow pumpkins...We're not on a pumpkin growing forum...

Where does LED stand?

**Left* = 757w COB LED
**Right* = 1000w HPS​






757w LED = *970.41*µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS = *892.79*µmoles/m2/s

25% less power draw, 8% higher PPFD.

757w LED highest PAR spike = *1,188*µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS highest PAR spike = *1,427*µmoles/m2/s

Difference between PPFD and highest PAR spike:
757w LED = *217.59*µmoles/m2/s
1000w HPS = *534.21*µmoles/m2/s


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> No, you literally said you can't be fucked to change your bulbs after a couple years. I think you're missing my point. Properly done DIY LED already trumps HPS. I agree that the current market has very little to offer aside from outlandish claims. I don't know why you keep suggesting to grow pumpkins...We're not on a pumpkin growing forum...
> 
> Where does LED stand?
> 
> ...


THATS DIY DUDE!!!!! THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT.
Read my posts.
Those charts still don't compare penetration. (how far the PAR travels).
How about 2 feet below the main canopy? Whats the, growth, and PAR there?
LED users have to lollypop, and train like crazy. Or their yield is shit.
I can guarantee the LED loses PAR very quickly, at a distance.
What kind of torch shines further? A big one, or a small one?
All the light comes from a single bulb, with hps.
What about led's? Thats not even considering, they have to sacrifice, some focus, for spread.
Hps, you just buy the right hood.


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> THATS DIY DUDE!!!!! THAT'S EXACTLY MY POINT.
> Read my posts.
> Those charts still don't compare penetration. (how far the PAR travels).
> How about 2 feet below the main canopy? Whats the, growth, and PAR there?
> ...


Sorry dude really can't help you at this point lol. You've got some learnin' to do.


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## Kushash (Mar 23, 2018)

Why do DIY's bring up changing a light bulb when switching to flower as a con. You would think changing a light bulb that screws in and out would be a no brainer for DIY types IMO.


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Kushash said:


> Why do DIY's bring up changing a light bulb when switching to flower as a con. You would think changing a light bulb that screws in and out would be a no brainer for DIY types IMO.


How could that not be a con?


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## Kushash (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> How could that not be a con?


Just seems insignificant and weakens an argument. Takes 2 minutes to do and is quite easy.


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## Kushash (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> How could that not be a con?


Of course I'm seeing it from a small grow not a large scale so that would be different I suppose.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Sorry dude really can't help you at this point lol. You've got some learnin' to do.


I think you'll find what im saying is true.
The sun is 91 million miles from earth. Heats the earth, and still puts out 10 000 lumens, per square foot. Puts out all the PAR, any plant needs too.
Hows that for penetration????
I think you need to do the reading, sorry pal.
Stop the insults too. I never once threw any at you.
Discuss, dont throw a tantrum.


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## Viceman666 (Mar 23, 2018)

Kushash said:


> Just seems insignificant and weakens an argument. Takes 2 minutes to do and is quite easy.


Keep in mind the cost of replacing the bulb every year or twice a year for some people.. while LED are rated for 5-10 yrs minimum


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> I think you'll find what im saying is true.
> The sun is 91 million miles from earth. Heats the earth, and still puts out 10 000 lumens, per square foot. Puts out all the PAR, any plant needs too.
> Hows that for penetration????
> I think you need to do the reading, sorry pal.
> ...


You're babbilng nonsense lol no way for me to help you see otherwise.


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## Kushash (Mar 23, 2018)

Viceman666 said:


> Keep in mind the cost of replacing the bulb every year or twice a year for some people.. while LED are rated for 5-10 yrs minimum


True. I wasn't referring to changing the bulb due to age.
I was referring to the comment about switching from MH to HPS when flowering starts.
Smoking some bubble hash I made yesterday, I better get out of here, to waisted.


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## Viceman666 (Mar 23, 2018)

jarvild said:


> So we go from a 300% to a 200% increase in initial upfront cost per watt.
> Let me ask you this. Let's say I have a 4x4 area and run 600 watts of HID's in that space and get almost 2 lbs from it. If led's as you say puts out 25% more light than a hid equivalent then I would need 450 watts of leds to match. Can that 450 Watts of LEDs pull that from that same area. From my experience, NO.
> As I said, I'm not against LED for grow lighting. Just the claims that the people make about their LEDs.


From your experience with LED? Really? I guess youre one of those bandwagon blurple LED user? Technology has evolved in the last 5-10 yrs.. blurple are at most equivalent to HPS if not worst when you look at power draw (and not false claim) maybe you used a mars hydro or vipar spectra or any other generic model.. yes the truth is if you got X amount with 600w hps youll get the same amount from 450w quality LED its just a fact.. I see you are talking about light penetration.. to my knowledge that is a myth or one of the theory without really proof of existance..


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## a mongo frog (Mar 23, 2018)

Kushash said:


> Takes 2 minutes to do


way less


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

Viceman666 said:


> From your experience with LED? Really? I guess youre one of those bandwagon blurple LED user? Technology has evolved in the last 5-10 yrs.. blurple are at most equivalent to HPS if not worst when you look at power draw (and not false claim) maybe you used a mara hydro or vipar spectra or any other generic model.. yes the truth is if you got X amount with 600w hps youll get the same amount from 450w quality LED its just a fact.. I see you are talking about light penetration.. to my knowledge that is a myth or one of the theory without really proof of existance..


Its the fact that LED's are many lights on one board. Each diode, cob, or whatever, can only shine so far. Watts and PAR, go hand in hand. Cant have one without the other.
Thats why, a single bulb travels so much further. Same as the sun.
Imagine a single 1000watt cob? OMFG. It'd be damn impractical, but fuck it would shine far.
Unfortunately physics doesnt really lie. Not when it comes to light, and distances.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> You're babbilng nonsense lol no way for me to help you see otherwise.


Ignorance is bliss.


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## Viceman666 (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> Its the fact that LED's are many lights on one board. Each diode, cob, or whatever, can only shine so far. Watts and PAR, go hand in hand. Cant have one without the other.
> Thats why, a single bulb travels so much further. Same as the sun.
> Imagine a single 1000watt cob? OMFG. It'd be damn impractical, but fuck it would shine far.
> Unfortunately physics doesnt really lie. Not when it comes to light, and distances.


Im far from being an enginer but what youre saying is that both hps and led (regardless the watts comparable is).. if both have the same ppfd at the canopy.. what you are saying is the hps willgo deeper in the canopy how is that? I have been told so many times about the inverse square law rules that your explanation dont seem to go in line with that.. yes at the exact same distance from the canopy the hps would have better penetration (more power from one point) but also a ppfd spike or hot zone) however this statement doesnt acknowledge the fact that led will be put closer the canopy and thus should have roughly the same penetration


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

Viceman666 said:


> Im far from being an enginer but what youre saying is that both hps and led (regardless the watts comparable is).. if both have the same ppfd at the canopy.. what you are saying is the hps willgo deeper in the canopy how is that? I have been told so many times about the inverse square law rules that your explanation dont seem to go in line with that.. yes at the exact same distance from the canopy the hps would have better penetration (more power from one point) but also a ppfd spike or hot zone) however this statement doesnt acknowledge the fact that led will be put closer the canopy and thus should have roughly the same penetration


Yes. Its what i mean.
If the canopy, is PAR for PAR.
LED loses PAR much faster, below the canopy. Which limits the ways in which, you can grow. 
I just love the freedom, and easy use, HID can provide.
Im so excited for LED. Truly.
But until i can get the same freedom from a factory made unit, thats ready to go. Im just not gonna budge.
For beginners too, LED can be an absolute disaster. We've all seen it.


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## jarvild (Mar 23, 2018)

Viceman666 said:


> From your experience with LED? Really? I guess youre one of those bandwagon blurple LED user? Technology has evolved in the last 5-10 yrs.. blurple are at most equivalent to HPS if not worst when you look at power draw (and not false claim) maybe you used a mars hydro or vipar spectra or any other generic model.. yes the truth is if you got X amount with 600w hps youll get the same amount from 450w quality LED its just a fact.. I see you are talking about light penetration.. to my knowledge that is a myth or one of the theory without really proof of existance..


 I'm sure I made no references to penetration. And my lights were all purchased in the last 4 years.


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> Yes. Its what i mean.
> If the canopy, is PAR for PAR.
> LED loses PAR much faster, below the canopy. Which limits the ways in which, you can grow.
> I just love the freedom, and easy use, HID can provide.
> ...


Why make statements without backing them?


> LED loses PAR much faster, below the canopy. Which limits the ways in which, you can grow.


What has led you to believe this? With proper uniformity, you have smaller PAR spikes, with greater overall PPFD than HPS can provide (even with the massive PAR spikes being added to the equation). Meaning you can place your lights closer to the plants, resulting in better penetration. I don't see how someone could logically conclude HPS has better penetration when its a fact that you cannot place an HPS light as close to your canopy as you could an LED with good uniformity.






Closer to the canopy = better penetration

That's what science tells us. What tells you HPS provides better penetration?


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Why make statements without backing them?
> What has led you to believe this? With proper uniformity, you have smaller PAR spikes, with greater overall PPFD than HPS can provide (even with the massive PAR spikes being added to the equation). Meaning you can place your lights closer to the plants, resulting in better penetration. I don't see how someone could logically conclude HPS has better penetration when its a fact that you cannot place an HPS light as close to your canopy as you could an LED with good uniformity.
> 
> 
> ...


Yes but you have to put them closer.
If you're in a 7 foot tent thats a problem. You may have 2 feet of canopy, but what about underneath?
You're severely hight restricted with Led.
How would you go with a 12 foot ceiling, and 10 foot plants? Hows the yield gonna be further down?
Honestly?


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

If PAR is the same at canopy, hps wins.
Why you reckon they never say the penetration is better than hid? They just say "better penetration" meaning in comparison to other LED's.
Its damn clever marketing.
False advertisement is a crime after all.
I can have my 600watt, a foot from my canopy.
A thousand watt needs 3 feet. Thats why a 600watt gives more PAR than a 1k.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> If PAR is the same at canopy, hps wins.
> Why you reckon they never say the penetration is better than hid? They just say "better penetration" meaning in comparison to other LED's.
> Its damn clever marketing.
> False advertisement is a crime after all.
> ...


But not for a large plant. Then a 1kw trumps a 600watt.
Better penetration.
Same again.


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

lol


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> lol


That's a really intelligent comment mate.
Care to explain, in detail? Without some silly illustration, you got from an LED manufacturer.
Please educate me a little if you can, maybe im wrong.
But i think you'll find im not.


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## CCCmints (Mar 23, 2018)

Good luck bro lmfao!


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## Tim1987 (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Good luck bro lmfao!


Good luck to you too mate 
Words, of a person who's lost a debate.
I'll count that as +1 for me 
Until of course im proven wrong, then im going straight out to buy LED.
I hope your light does really well. Truly. Then ill buy one too.


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## ANC (Mar 23, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> Closer to the canopy = better penetration


it is not so simple....

Imagine you had a glowing blanket you could hang 2 inches above the canopy that delivers 1000ppfd at canopy level...
What is the PPFD 2 inches down from that?

Now imagine you had an HID hanging at 3 feet above the canopy delivering 1000PPFD at canopy level...what would that be 2 inches down?

I could do a similar comparison using trigonometry to show you the lengths of the sides of a triangle to show the drop off from the center to the edge of the trays depending on how high you *HAVE *to hang a light..


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## Hotwired (Mar 24, 2018)

All I care about is the top 12" of canopy. Anything under that is trimmed anyway


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## Sirtwistsalot (Mar 25, 2018)

Penetrate this...
Quantums, love and faith.


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## Tim1987 (Mar 25, 2018)

Sirtwistsalot said:


> Penetrate this...View attachment 4111569
> Quantums, love and faith.


Nice, healthy, flowering plants. With lots of fresh air.
What's the point?
They look healthy to me.


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## Gquebed (Mar 25, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> way less


Hey... consider this:
I know you can grow well. Ive seen your stuff. You will figure this out. 

I switched to cobs last year and did two runs. Growing with them made me realize that the game changes from hps growing, because i failed... i didnt adapt well enough. I lost confidence in my skills and went back to hps for this year to regain that lost confidence. 

BUT! i did see the potential in those cob lights. So i know i didnt waste my money. Im sold on em, inspite of failing. I just know i have to adapt to them better so im going to give them another go next round. 

I imagine switiching to QBs is very similar since its a variation of the same tech. Just need to take the plunge and get after it. 

PS. I measure my succeess/failure based on what i can yield with hps in my space. With cobs, I did about 1/2 of what i coulda done with hps. But it was all my fault. I know that. Had i fucked up only 1/2 of what i fucked up i still wouldve yielded more than i normally do with hps. If i had a clean run, i woulda killed it. 

So... dont worry about the qb or cobs, just go in knowing there is a learning curve with them.. and youll be fine. I regret having gone bqck to HPS... shoulda spent that time tuning me into running cobs.


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## a mongo frog (Mar 25, 2018)

Gquebed said:


> Hey... consider this:
> I know you can grow well. Ive seen your stuff. You will figure this out.
> 
> I switched to cobs last year and did two runs. Growing with them made me realize that the game changes from hps growing, because i failed... i didnt adapt well enough. I lost confidence in my skills and went back to hps for this year to regain that lost confidence.
> ...


What type of learning curve is there? The room will be set up to where if it starts to look like LED is not going to match the prior hps run, ill be able to switch back immediately. Hopefully in less then an hour.
This is the said room getting switched from HPS to 2 QB 600's and 1 750 watt cob unit. Same spacing exactly on center. Co2 enriched also, just don't know if burner is needed or or injection will be fine. Don't want a cool running room (80 degrees min).
Thanks for the feed back, I'm listening to everything and watching all threads. The 2 QB lamps should be here in 2 days!!!


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## Gquebed (Mar 25, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> What type of learning curve is there? The room will be set up to where if it starts to look like LED is not going to match the prior hps run, ill be able to switch back immediately. Hopefully in less then an hour.
> This is the said room getting switched from HPS to 2 QB 600's and 1 750 watt cop unit. Same spacing exactly on center. Co2 enriched also, just don't know if burner is needed or or injection will be fine. Don't want a cool running room (80 degrees min).
> Thanks for the feed back, I'm listening to everything and watching all threads. The 2 QB lamps should be here in 2 days!!!


Dialling in on the right temps and figuring out the nutes was what i struggled with. QBs might not be as tricky cause it seems like the light is more spread out... i dunno... no experience with them.

But with the cobs... they are intense...
i was told to keep the temps higher...round 83ish... because lack of ir kept leaf surface temp cooler and transpiration was a bit slower. And i didnt listen. I kept my temps about 78 to 80ish.

Also, the intensity of the cobs made caused me some cal/mag probs i didnt really sort out. My water is high in cal so i didnt add as much cal mag as i prolly shouldve and ended up with various nute deficiencies.

In spite of having grown for 8 years now, im not good at identifying nute probs early. I think its just lack of experience becuse i just havent had to deal with nute probs much. Usually have clean runs...

Anyway, dialling in the enviro and matching the nutes is the learning curve....

Also, light height. The manufacturer said 16ish inches above the canopy, but i quickly found that was too low. Bleaching...fast. i was good about 22ish inches...


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## Tim1987 (Mar 25, 2018)

@Gauebed

Cheers for your honest info man.
Im really excited, for led's too.
Thanks for the feedback.
Sounds like they didn't do all that bad anyway.
I'll be keen to know how you go, on your second run.

They're definitely catching up. Thats for sure.
I just want them to suit my circumstances.
For me, i need versatility, and flexibility.
I just like to let plants go for it, and let them grow, however they want.
Its part of the fun, in this hobby, for me.
I love all the different phenotypes, in regular seeds.

Hps, really gives me that freedom.


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## thumper60 (Mar 25, 2018)

Sirtwistsalot said:


> Penetrate this...View attachment 4111569
> Quantums, love and faith.


cut back on the n not bad!


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## thumper60 (Mar 25, 2018)

a mongo frog said:


> What type of learning curve is there? The room will be set up to where if it starts to look like LED is not going to match the prior hps run, ill be able to switch back immediately. Hopefully in less then an hour.
> This is the said room getting switched from HPS to 2 QB 600's and 1 750 watt cob unit. Same spacing exactly on center. Co2 enriched also, just don't know if burner is needed or or injection will be fine. Don't want a cool running room (80 degrees min).
> Thanks for the feed back, I'm listening to everything and watching all threads. The 2 QB lamps should be here in 2 days!!!


be checking in ben reading tons, our rooms bout the same hoping the 6s cover a 1k


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## Rakin (Mar 27, 2018)

Budzbuddha said:


> Point on the board where the Quantum hurt you .....
> 
> View attachment 4110132


LMFAO!


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## Sirtwistsalot (Mar 27, 2018)

Right side...check!


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## Rakin (Mar 28, 2018)

Sirtwistsalot said:


> Right side...check!View attachment 4113077


Did you space those out on the edges of double heat sinks? What wattage are you running the board at and how hot is the non sink sides of the board? I like it


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## cobber (Mar 28, 2018)

why would u mount the boards like that, im getting close to having my lights set up and while running them full out im pushing 180f i cant see how thats gonna work out for u my production light (hlg 550) hits 150f im using a 240w drivers which push a tad more power out


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## Sirtwistsalot (Mar 28, 2018)

I have the drivers turned down. Half the QBS are 288 and half are 304. At the current setting the 288s run at 103°/115° (on/off heatsink) and the 304s run at 109°/114°. 1 rig=4 boards=600 w at the current setting. So, 4 rigs (16qbs) draw 2400w. I stagger the lights with timers. One half on for 6, other half on for the other 6. Still covers the 4x4 area (1 rig per 4x4) but uses half the electricity. In other words instead of 2400w, I use 1200w. If I ran it all, it would be 4800w. Instead I use 2400w. Kinda like a using a light mover. Before heads explode, factor in the various shading effects that occur in nature. Most plants in nature don't get 12hrs of direct full sun every day all day. So, I tested it out and will keep doing it. 8 plants total. Perpetual goal. I have also played with turning all the drivers all the way down and keeping all the lights on. I'm still experimenting. The spacing gives better coverage over a 4x4 area.


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## cobber (Mar 28, 2018)

i see pretty wild man


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## cobber (Mar 28, 2018)

pretty getto but im going to funtion


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## kdt15 (Mar 30, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> You're either completely blind or you're not even reading the posts on this thread before replying...No one, not even once, said 1x 1000w HPS could hang with 2x HLG-550s. Your statements are based on nothing. You just randomly come up with stuff like, "_..so 500-550w quantum should get you pretty close_". I've posted the data. Observe it, note the differences. You've got graphs for 1000w HPS in a 4x4 reflective area and the HLG-550 in a 4x4 reflective area, in this very thread. There is no debate. The HLG-550 has 30% less output over a 4x4 space than 1000w HPS, and nearly the same light uniformity. I've done the tests, you have not.
> 
> I've already stated I'm a proponent for LED. Are you reading my posts? I don't believe in HLG's claims that they've succeeded 1000w HPS with 50% less power draw. That's all.
> 
> I've literally proved it in this thread. The HLG-550 is inferior to 1000w HPS in terms of light output. That is a 100% fact, which you can verify yourself by purchasing a quantum sensor, 1000w setup, and conducting your own photometric uniformity test. Until you've done that, stop posting on this topic. No one needs the opinion of someone who just pulls random data/information out of their ass.


could 3 hlg550s replace 2 1000w gavitas for a 4x8?


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

hi guy's I have just purchased a hlg 550 and I'm sure it's performance to what I have seen is closer to a 315w cmh or a 400w hps. just you watch soon they will have reflector wings to control light spread. I might fabricate mine and let you know. at the end of the day do what helps you out the most. in using mine for veg at the moment but use cmh hps and led side lights for flowering works a treat.


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## Viceman666 (Aug 23, 2018)

led+cmh+hps#user said:


> hi guy's I have just purchased a hlg 550 and I'm sure it's performance to what I have seen is closer to a 315w cmh or a 400w hps. just you watch soon they will have reflector wings to control light spread. I might fabricate mine and let you know. at the end of the day do what helps you out the most. in using mine for veg at the moment but use cmh hps and led side lights for flowering works a treat.


A hlg 550 will EASILY beat a 400w hps light.. its more the equivalent of a 800w hps - just for the record.. no they dont need reflector wing..hlg used to sale a version with reflector but didnt last very long. Reflector are used with HpS because the light is 360 degrees while LED in the HLG products are 120 degrees. Ive seen some use lenses but not many and Id say its for some very specific set up or needs that it has been done


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

depends where you are in the world maybe some people rely on the heat from a hps.... no need for the tense abrupt reply. like I said DO WHATEVER HELPS YOU OUT THE MOST....... omg hps emit 360° of LIGHT!!!!! I've only been using them since 2002 holy mother of god next you'll be trying to tell me you can grow indoors with these spectrum emitting glass tubes that I mistake for dildo's....


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

and I stated 'I HAVE ONLY USED MINE FOR VEG'....


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## Kushash (Aug 23, 2018)

led+cmh+hps#user said:


> hi guy's I have just purchased a hlg 550 and I'm sure it's performance to what I have seen is closer to a 315w cmh or a 400w hps. just you watch soon they will have reflector wings to control light spread. I might fabricate mine and let you know. at the end of the day do what helps you out the most. in using mine for veg at the moment but use cmh hps and led side lights for flowering works a treat.


I'm a skeptic about a lot of what I read here and grow with HID but if I was to get a 550 hlg I'd give it some time before judging it.


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## Viceman666 (Aug 23, 2018)

led+cmh+hps#user said:


> depends where you are in the world maybe some people rely on the heat from a hps.... no need for the tense abrupt reply. like I said DO WHATEVER HELPS YOU OUT THE MOST....... omg hps emit 360° of LIGHT!!!!! I've only been using them since 2002 holy mother of god next you'll be trying to tell me you can grow indoors with these spectrum emitting glass tubes that I mistake for dildo's....


Relax bud didnt mean to be mean to you



led+cmh+hps#user said:


> hi guy's I have just purchased a hlg 550 and I'm sure it's performance to what I have seen is closer to a 315w cmh or a 400w hps


What have you seen, where have you seen that? I was just stating that you were incorrect and comparing a hlg550 to a 400whps doesnt even make any sense.. there is tons and tons of thread that can prove you wromg.. if you really had taken the time to “see”..



led+cmh+hps#user said:


> just you watch soon they will have reflector wings to control light spread. I might fabricate mine and let you know.


Just trying to save you some time, it had existed and been tested and unless some specific needs 99% of grower would not benefits from reflector wings.. you want to spend your time and money to try it out on your own fine.. your choice but im just giving you advice and if you cant take it then might as well not come talk to us on a forum which should be open minded.. 

All good bro move on


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## Viceman666 (Aug 23, 2018)

Kushash said:


> I'm a skeptic about a lot of what I read here and grow with HID but if I was to get a 550 hlg I'd give it some time before judging it.


Yeah no doubt with the very popular blurple light generation few years ago its normal to be skeptical about LED but comparing a blurple light to a samsung top of the line efficient LED found in the hlg550 is a complete different story.. I can understand skeptisism but saying that 500w+ of efficient light would have similar perfomance of a 400w hps. That is just misinformation in my opinion..


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

don't get me wrong I'm all for led. helps out with heat in summer. cuts bills and buying bulbs every couple of months. once I've used mine for vegging I'll pop it in for flowering and i will soon see.


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

I agree on the blurple bit especially with viparspectra, ok for veg but not enough red for flowering.


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## RetiredGuerilla (Aug 23, 2018)

I never used a LED but my 400 watt HPS has grown the biggest, densest buds I have ever seen. I have grown many plants in full sun too. Just my two.


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## Viceman666 (Aug 23, 2018)

led+cmh+hps#user said:


> don't get me wrong I'm all for led. helps out with heat in summer. cuts bills and buying bulbs every couple of months. once I've used mine for vegging I'll pop it in for flowering and i will soon see.


Dont expect a 1000w DE HPS replacement but a hlg 550 is worth about a 8-850w hps in terms of power/yield... if you like to diy look into samsung strips which use the same LED diodes than the hlg product.. anyhow I suggest you hop on the LED section on this forum.. LOTS and LOTS of info and builds and so on.. i pulled 20oz in a 4x4 with a chinese knock off the hlg550 not bad I think


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

the quantum boards with the mean well drivers? seen them on alibaba.com I had a quote for £200 includes all costs delivered to my door. they are getting bigger I noticed a 804 board with a 600w driver on there yesterday. think they said there was x2 boards with 804 led's on them. 1608 led's??? what would that even match up to regarding hps pushing new territory 1000w +?


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## Tim1987 (Aug 23, 2018)

led+cmh+hps#user said:


> I agree on the blurple bit especially with viparspectra, ok for veg but not enough red for flowering.


Even veg Viparspectra is no good. 600 HPS smashes my Viparspectra 900 during veg. Not to even mention flower.

I'm not at all opposed to LED. Infact i believe its the future.

But there's way too many bullshit comparisons by LED manufacturers.

The reality is, if someone is going headfirst into growing, and has to choose a light. Then the reliability of HID is extremely hard to beat. Brand to brand.
But the reliability, and price of LED is still outrageous imvho. There is so much variety in lights watt for watt, brand to brand.
It's a consumer nightmare.


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## Viceman666 (Aug 23, 2018)

led+cmh+hps#user said:


> the quantum boards with the mean well drivers? seen them on alibaba.com I had a quote for £200 includes all costs delivered to my door. they are getting bigger I noticed a 804 board with a 600w driver on there yesterday. think they said there was x2 boards with 804 led's on them. 1608 led's??? what would that even match up to regarding hps pushing new territory 1000w +?


Cost me 400usd for 4 boards with heatsink and meanwell drivers delivered to my door in 2 days from china.. still need to be careful when buying on alibaba as many use cheaper or less efficient diodes on their boards althought in some cases they look almost identical to the real one.. (lm561c s6, lm561 s5 or some use lm561b/b+ model - seller will tell you they use top model but the reality is its not always the case) 
the bigger boards have been there for some time someone tested 2 at different power and height and did a par map @Moflow ..the thing with those samsung diodes is harder you run them less efficient they become they can go up to 200-220lm/w if ran very soft while hps is about 110lm/w if im not mistaken.. but most people using the samsung diodes are probably running them at around 160-170lm/w so about 60% more light than HPS for the same power but could go up to 100%.. at a certain point cost comes into play for many.. whats good with quantum boards is also the fact that the light has a better spread so less hot zone..


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## Viceman666 (Aug 23, 2018)

Tim1987 said:


> Even veg Viparspectra is no good. 600 HPS smashes my Viparspectra 900 during veg. Not to even mention flower.
> 
> I'm not at all opposed to LED. Infact i believe its the future.
> 
> ...


Yes for blurple light light vipar you need to look at true wattage or actual wattage from the wall so a vipar900 is probably around 400w at the wall which would mean equivalent to a 400hps this is why your 600w hps kills it no doubt about it


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

your right there it is a nightmare. I remember the very first great big huge metal ballast's with vents on the sides.... now the tiny little digital beasts run cooler and more efficient. I never even attempted flowering with my viper's...they are side lights when required.... hopefully the 550 will come up good when I use it for flowering. like you said 600w hps has been heavily relied on by generations of new growers.


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## Tim1987 (Aug 23, 2018)

Viceman666 said:


> Yes for blurple light light vipar you need to look at true wattage or actual wattage from the wall so a vipar900 is probably around 400w at the wall which would mean equivalent to a 400hps this is why your 600w hps kills it no doubt about it


Yes correct. I think its draw is 389 watts. Could be 480 though. I can't remember.

But in all honesty i resorted to a 600watt HPS with a dimmer. 
First grow after the Viparspectra I only used the HPS at 400watts, because i was new to indoor growing.
The difference in veg, and bloom at 400 was obvious. I'd say i had 20% more plant matter overall, for the same amount of time.
Its the honest truth.



led+cmh+hps#user said:


> your right there it is a nightmare. I remember the very first great big huge metal ballast's with vents on the sides.... now the tiny little digital beasts run cooler and more efficient. I never even attempted flowering with my viper's...they are side lights when required.... hopefully the 550 will come up good when I use it for flowering. like you said 600w hps has been heavily relied on by generations of new growers.


I hope so too.
I'm of the opinion HLG sell great quality lights regardless.
My belief is we all need to stop comparing LED to HID. Manufacturers need to stop using the words "better than". It drives me crazy lol. 
Personally HID saves me money on heating.
But if there was a light that could perform as well as my HPS under ideal temps. Then an LED makes perfect sense for myself in the hot summer. It may even improve on yield. But during winter, i have my doubts...besides the cost.

Let us all know how the HLG550 goes. Even pm me. 
Because a HLG550 would be a perfect replacement in my 4x4, for the summer.

Best of luck with the grow. Hope it's a good'n.


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Aug 23, 2018)

I have put 2 clones aside from the same mother vegged for 4 weeks 18l pot coco same nutes and i'll compare against the 600 and the hlg 550. this is one of the ladies from the 600w with voter's as side lights. I'll keep it even and this one in with the hlg too. it is hot at the moment but temps stable at 28°c lights on and 20°c lights off. but it did creep up to 31°c the others week. I'll post results in 4 weeks for this one then side by side in a few months. this is a grapefruit strain


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## Viceman666 (Aug 23, 2018)

And if you are in europe because I saw £ sign somewhere you can also look at the hlg600 sold by an authorized retailer of HLG in europe and you get a bit more wattage then the 550 may end up cheaper too if not too late lol

And finally because the HLG product are more efficient and produce less heat you want to run your room a bit more hot than hps to get a good 82F leaf temp (close to 28C) for maximum photosynthesis..

Im not too technical in knowledge there is tons of expert and studies, real life example in the LED section of this forum


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## jasperr (Aug 23, 2018)

I got a 135W QB to replace my 250W HID light since it was abnormally hot this summer here, I must say I'm really satisfied!
It's pretty much on par with the HID but I can keep the grow tent 7° cooler, I'm sure I'll notice it on my energy bill too
Don't underestimate these lights, I got some light burn if I got it closer than 40cm

It looks cool too haha, really flat


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## Tim1987 (Aug 23, 2018)

led+cmh+hps#user said:


> View attachment 4185778 View attachment 4185780 View attachment 4185780 I have put 2 clones aside from the same mother vegged for 4 weeks 18l pot coco same nutes and i'll compare against the 600 and the hlg 550. this is one of the ladies from the 600w with voter's as side lights. I'll keep it even and this one in with the hlg too. it is hot at the moment but temps stable at 28°c lights on and 20°c lights off. but it did creep up to 31°c the others week. I'll post results in 4 weeks for this one then side by side in a few months. this is a grapefruit strain


Cheers. Looks great so far!
Looking forward to your results.



Viceman666 said:


> And if you are in europe because I saw £ sign somewhere you can also look at the hlg600 sold by an authorized retailer of HLG in europe and you get a bit more wattage then the 550 may end up cheaper too if not too late lol
> 
> And finally because the HLG product are more efficient and produce less light you want to run your room a bit more hot than hps to get a good 82F leaf temp (close to 28C) for maximum photosynthesis..
> 
> Im not too technical in knowledge there is tons of expert and studies, real life example in the LED section of this forum


Thats my problem though. I want 600 watts worth of light, but need the heat as well.
But 600watt HID is a PITA for me during summer. Its a dream during winter. I save power.


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## mycomaster (Oct 16, 2018)

I ran a 600W lumatek with super lumens (690W) for 10 years for personal use, I could pull close to 1 1/2lbs in a 4×4 area, I have a hlg550, and a hlg550v2, they produce better flowers, and will blow any hid out of the water, you just can't compare them! Less heat, less wattage, less problems, less B.S.


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Nov 11, 2018)

yeah my quantum board came out just fine. 4 average plants yield was 14 oz so 3.5 per plant. very pleased. made biscuits with all the scraps and god damd the fucked me up. simmered all the leaves and scraps a whole bin full..... and put 1kg of butter in the pan ended up with 160g of super strength butter to bake with. really wasn't expecting the power of the high...


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Nov 11, 2018)

one close up


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## led+cmh+hps#user (Nov 11, 2018)

looks fine to me in the end regarding quality and yield is about the same as my 600w hps and cmh led side lighting setup. quantaum boards all the way boys.


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## mycomaster (Nov 18, 2018)

Don't buy from HLG, get a kit or one assembled from growerslightsource.com. They have a better heatsink, and they're easier to replace the boards when they go bad, plus they're cheaper!


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## coreywebster (Nov 18, 2018)

mycomaster said:


> Don't buy from HLG, get a kit or one assembled from growerslightsource.com. They have a better heatsink, and they're easier to replace the boards when they go bad, plus they're cheaper!


Got a direct link?
I cant find a quantum board on their site.
What do you mean easier to replace boards when they go bad, not heard of a HLG board going bad as of yet, did you have issues with yours?


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## mycomaster (Nov 18, 2018)

coreywebster said:


> Got a direct link?
> I cant find a quantum board on their site.
> What do you mean easier to replace boards when they go bad, not heard of a HLG board going bad as of yet, did you have issues with yours?


The boards simply screw in to the heatsink, they're not riveted in place. I've had 0 problems with my factory hlg550, I just think the build with the growers light source is the better option.


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## worldspawn (Nov 19, 2018)

I've just jumped to the end here after skimming page 1. I have done a grow with a single HLG 550 V1 in a 4'x4' tent and yielded 640 grams (a personal best). This was from two seeds but i really scrogged the shit out of them - very heavy on the scrog micro management (which i grew to hate doing). Got this yield while also dealing with very high ambient temps (coz it was summer). A lot of 30+ degree (celcius) days. I've never HPS'd but I can certainly say I am a happy HLG customer, so much so I just ordered a V2.


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## coreywebster (Nov 19, 2018)

mycomaster said:


> The boards simply screw in to the heatsink, they're not riveted in place. I've had 0 problems with my factory hlg550, I just think the build with the growers light source is the better option.


Yeah I thought you were saying HLG would not replace the boards if they went bad.
Still cant find them for sale on growers light source, just some helios spectrum crap, did you mean growers lights? A different site.


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## mycomaster (Nov 19, 2018)

https://growerslights.com/products/horticulture-lighting-group-600h-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=8194696151141


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## mycomaster (Nov 19, 2018)

My bad


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## coreywebster (Nov 19, 2018)

mycomaster said:


> https://growerslights.com/products/horticulture-lighting-group-600h-quantum-board-led-kit?variant=8194696151141


Yeah cheers, thats what i thought you ment..
What you originally said was growerslightsource.com, which is a total different site selling some right shite..

Not meaning to pedantic.
The HLG 600 is a lot of value for money.


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## soxfantony312 (Nov 19, 2018)

CCCmints said:


> *I don't own an HLG-550 and anyone who did their research wouldn't own one either. *Facts are facts. I've posted a visual representation of the product's performance, using data THEY PROVIDE, and the guys that already fell for the marketing ploy are upset that they don't actually have a proper 1000w replacement. I'm sorry you purchased an overpriced item that china has already copied and is now selling for a fraction of HLG's price.
> 
> What's not cool is defending an inferior product solely because you've already purchased it. Do you see the graphs? Do you see the issues within those graphs? Do you see the HLG-550 has the same uniformity issues yet still produces 30% less light output? What is so hard to understand for you? Do you just not believe the data I collected for HPS is real? Is the visual representation using data HLG provides on their product page not sufficient for you? I'm trying to walk you through it as best I can.


What makes you say that? Ive done my research and *I'M* still considering one. Its fucked up that they falsely claim its close to 1000wHPS but I dont need 1000 watts.... The approximate 650-700 watt equivalent provided sounds perfect for the 2-3 plants i intend to grow if recreational gets passed for my city. Either the 550 or the DIY 600 kit With some supplemental CFL, a smaller HLG light, or even a blurple light in addition this would be more than enough for me. I have a walk in closet and zero ventilation holes drilled and MH/HPS simply gets too hot for my needs.


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## soxfantony312 (Nov 19, 2018)

mycomaster said:


> Don't buy from HLG, get a kit or one assembled from growerslightsourceThey have a better heatsink, and they're easier to replace the boards when they go bad, plus they're cheaper!


It still might be worth it to go to the site you suggested due to build quality/replacement boards, however HLG is having a black friday sale right now on the 600 kit


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